# Can I have these frogs in my viv???



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Hiya I have a frog viv that has got a lot of space on the floor however there is also climbing space (ie a log going from the bottom of me viv sloped diagonially upwards to the top) and a man made waterfall and a plant and im wondering whether or not my viv would be suitable for a pair of poison dart frogs??? (one Adult Oyapock and one Tinc Patricia)???
Please help as Ill need to tell the lady that im purchasing them off if my viv isnt suitable!!!

Piccie of viv:











Many thanks

Martin Dean


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Martin, you shouldn't mix species of darts if you don't know what you're doing and NOBODY should be mixing two species of Tinctorious. 

How much research have you done? I hate to be rude but I don't think you should be keeping any dart frogs at all.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Its not that, but the person who I am buying them from has the 2 species of dart frogs together so would u say I should refrain from buying them off her then???? I do not mind I just need to know!!!!
The woman who I was buying them off has the advert below:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibian-classifieds/761944-2-dart-frogs-take-donny.html

Have a look if you can and tell me what you think???


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh dear! No, do not buy them.

Have you had a read through the dart frog sticky at the top of the page?


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Easy there Morg, he's here asking questions, which is a good step towards getting things right.

However Morg is right about not mixing tinctorius MORPHS (they are all the same species). They are colour morphs of the same species of frog, which means that if you end up with a pair, you WILL end up with cross morph frogs, a BIG no no in the dart frog hobby. I would recommend asking the woman if she can make it a pair of just ONE of those morphs. Further I would suggest the Patricia, Oyapock may not be the best choice for an absolute beginner. If she can't then leave it, try to find 2 of the same morph somewhere else.

If she tells you they will be fine together, walk away anyway, as she is purely after your money and knows naff all about keeping poison dart frogs.

Regards

Ade


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

It was either them or some red eyed green tree frogs so Ill stick to the red eyed green tree frogs!!! I was just trying to get someones opinioon thats all!!! Many thanks Morgan!!!! Another Question she has 5 stars in her name and it says she is a premium member so wouldnt that suggest she is an expert on this forum or what do the stars mean???


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Wrong again. Given you've never kept frogs before, leave the Red Eyes alone.

All the stars mean is that you post a lot. You could post 1000s of posts that consisted of total garbage, and a person with a fraction of the stars and posts would know more. The stars are just post based rank badges.

Seriously now, go do some reading, as at the moment you are jumping from one mistake to the next. Take a deep breath, turn on your patience and go do some research, seriously.

Ade


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

I am going to do some reading but what would you say I get then??? Some American green tree frogs or whites tree frogs then???? Or is there any Dart Frogs that are good for beginners and arborreal????


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Easy there Morg, he's here asking questions, which is a good step towards getting things right.
> 
> 
> 
> Ade



Sorry, I mean no disrespect to Martin, but he does have a history.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Ive had a quick look at some sites and they say to either get the Dendrobates leucomelas dark frog (which says its easy as it likes ground sapce and likes to climb) or the _Dendrobates reticulatus species??? What do u lot think??? And plus to my detriment I only have an history because I have had 2 different reptiles from 2 people which came in vivs that where NO WAY recommended for them (one was a spiny tailed iguana which came in a viv which looked as if it was from a tip which had 3 piece of glass at the front not two and was way too small for it AND it came with no basking light or UV!!! The 2nd was an iguana whih came with 2 4 by 2 buy 2 foot vivs one on top of each other with the bottom cut out of the top one and the top cut out of the bottom which was NO WAY big enougth to house a 3 foot iguana which was ill when I purchased it!!!_

_All I wish to know is a little bit more about these species and which would be best in my viv??? (Ill be purchasing a exo-terra monsoon rainfall system and _3 x bromeliad species of plant from Dartfrog.co.uk to add to it and I wont be getting the frogs for quite a few months yet so plenty of time for me to read up about them!!!) Just want yer opinion guys!!!


----------



## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

reptileman33 said:


> Ive had a quick look at some sites and they say to either get the Dendrobates leucomelas dark frog (which says its easy as it likes ground sapce and likes to climb) or the_*Dendrobates reticulatus *species??? What do u lot think???_


Reticulatus are certainly not an easy dartfrog to keep so dont know where you read that

Personally i dont think you are ready for dartfrogs and should get either some whites treefrogs or green treefrogs which was first suggested to you a couple of months ago when you got the viv and asked the same questions then

Richie


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

reptileman33 said:


> Ive had a quick look at some sites and they say to either get the Dendrobates leucomelas dark frog (which says its easy as it likes ground sapce and likes to climb) or the _Dendrobates reticulatus species??? What do u lot think???_


I think you're confusing beginner _dart_ frogs with beginner frogs.

There is a sticky here which lists the best species for beginners, check it out and see which ones suit your viv best.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Lastly then what do people think about D Ventrimaculatus dart frogs as in how much experience you need for them??? As A lot of web sites are saying out of all the dart frog species they are best for beginners????


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

reptileman33 said:


> Lastly then what do people think about D Ventrimaculatus dart frogs as in how much experience you need for them??? As A lot of web sites are saying out of all the dart frog species they are best for beginners????


Again, they probably mean best for beginners to dart frogs, rather than beginners to frogs in general. The same way a Veiled chameleon is a good starter cham, but not a good starter lizard. Dart frogs in general have a few too many specific needs for the first time keeper, from what I've heard. : victory:


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

What I want really is a good frog that is awake in the day and active in the day which is also a good beginners frogs, the problem with Whites and American Tree Froms is that they are nocternal so which is the best species of frog that is awake during the day (ie diurnal) and is arboreal and is a beginner frog???


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Arboreal, beginners and diurnal?

Pretty limited choices, as all true tree frogs are nocturnal as far as I am aware. Most of the few truly diurnal frogs are either aquatic/semi-aquatic (Clawed and Dwarf Clawed Frogs, Fire-Bellied Toads), or terrestrial (Tomato Frogs).


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Hence I think im stuck with D Ventrimaculatus dont you think????:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::gasp::gasp:


----------



## OlyFroggyBoy (Nov 18, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> Hence I think im stuck with D Ventrimaculatus dont you think????:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::gasp::gasp:


Not at all. Going by the kind of questions your asking, you seriously need a lot of reading to do. Not just flicking through a load of websites and seeing what takes your fancy. Buy some books on exotic frogs etc, they word the info differently form the websites. Like the others have said stay away from dart frogs untill youve had some experience with other frogs. Have you considered the food for dart frogs yet? The amount of work thats needed to provide them with enough food can sometimes be harder than actually keeping the frog itself.


----------



## Mbar (Aug 12, 2007)

So what happened to your baby Whites? :hmm:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/769584-am-i-wrong.html


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

If your stuck on getting darts get auratus or leucs, if you can get them as subadults even better as both are some of the easiest darts to keep. They do climb about a bit and would use the space you have. The guys are right, just because you see something nice docent make it easy. Reg eyed babies are hard, easier keeping adult! They don't like soil or moss substrate, a plan glass floor is in fact better as they get totally stressed if any little bit of dirt or leave on their skin. Stress leads to death rather quickly. You can't go wrong with good old whites, USA or European green tree frogs are good but more lively. The thread on beginners frogs wasn't bad although only thing Incan say is most species on the list are imported rather than cb.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

reptileman33 said:


> What I want really is a good frog that is awake in the day and active in the day which is also a good beginners frogs, the problem with Whites and American Tree Froms is that they are nocternal so which is the best species of frog that is awake during the day (ie diurnal) and is arboreal and is a beginner frog???


You might be better looking at keeping a small lizard species like phelsuma! Many are in the 6" size, brightly coloured and awake during the day. I know they arent frogs but sometimes the right kind of animal for us isn't what we first think of or want. Day geckos are amazing! Gold dust are stunning and have been sold cb recently. 
Most frogs are more active during the morning, evening and night rather than during the day unless your going dart or mantella but both of those require a
lot of work and care.


----------



## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Mbar said:


> So what happened to your baby Whites? :hmm:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/769584-am-i-wrong.html


A good question Mbar what did happen to them





reptileman33 said:


> Hence I think im stuck with D Ventrimaculatus dont you think????:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::gasp::gasp:


Again a totally unsuitable dartfrog for you, how many tubs of melonagastor have you actually hatched just out of interest as i see you with a vent wanted add in the classifieds so youve obviously mastered there feeding

fire bellied toads these are a bit more forgiving diurnal and will climb no probem ideal for you i would say

seems again you are trying to run before you can walk

Richie


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

One last question then???? What about the amazon milk frogs??? Or are they much too hard to look after???? Its hard as if you read a webpage on the internet (or quite a few) and they say that these frogs are for beginners then you immediately think that its ok to get one!!! The problem with day gekos is how my viv is as I think its more setup for frogs than day geckos as there isnt much of the sides not covered in moss!!!! I mean what do you guys think after looking at my viv???











Could a day gecko be ok in it??? Or if not what about Amazon Milk frogs??? And after the lst comment Ill ask that me advert be taken down thanks :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::devil:


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

The tank is barely suitable for dart frogs, it's tiny.

You need to answer people's questions or they'll stop helping you.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I think you need to stop deliberately looking for frogs that are going to challenge your abilities is what I think. Vents are NOT a good beginner frog, they are not a good beginner dart frog, they are a good beginner THUMBNAIL dartfrog, as in good for those with experience with darts wanting to keep their first thumbnail frogs. Yes they can work as a first dart, but only for those people who have the type of personality where they spend more than 30 seconds doing research, and then spend months practicing culturing livefoods for them until they have got it spot on before even thinking of buying the frogs.

If you rush in with ANY dart frog, but most especially a thumbnail one, you are going to end up with dead frogs on your hands.

As to Amazon milk frogs, they are tree frogs, and nocturnal like all of the rest. Richie has already suggested what may be the perfect frog for you, in the form of oriental fire bellied toads. HOWEVER that viv as it is currently is unsuitable for these, and to be quite honest with you, any other arboreal species.

Let me put this simply for you, you are putting the cart before the horse. You can't build a viv, then ask "what frogs can I put in this" and then specify that they need to be arboreal when the viv isn't even set up as an arboreal viv. You research the various choices, you chose one, you research it further, then you ask your questions on what viv to get etc, then you buy a viv SUITABLE FOR YOUR CHOSEN FROGS and you decorate it to SUIT THE CHOSEN FROGS. You don't buy a viv, randomly chuck decor in it, then expect to have gotten it right.

If you want to rush in without bothering to listen to advice, or do any research, then amphibians are probably not for you. It's comparable to trying to set up a nano reef as your first ever aquarium, and what you have done so far is buy a bucket and throw in some rocks, then say "what corals can I keep in this?".

Going back to the question asked by Mbar and Richie makes things appear even worst. What happened to your White's tree frogs? One minute you are asking if you are feeding them right, the next you are talking as if you don't have any White's? Did you kill them, or get bored of them astonishingly quickly? If the answer to either of these is yes, then you seriously need to drop the idea of keeping amphibians. Perhaps you would prefer Indian stick insects, or maybe even a pet rock?

Ade


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Looks ok for a small species phalsuma. U don't need to have moss on the side just add a plant or two or some vine. And a little bamboo. In a way for amazons think whites with stripes.

Did the white get miss stuck to them and dry them out? Treefrogs don't like stuff sticking to them. I would also say now don't buy babies of any species. Get adults or subadults as they will be more hardy. Baby frogs often need more care and attention and often a different set up to the adults!


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

I cannot get any at the mo as Im going on a caribbean cruise and the reason I HAD to sell me whites was because I had nop one to look after them whilst I was on holiday!!!! I have had lizards before and asked (and even paid) my cousin to come up to look after them, in which after I had paid I had found out he never came up once!!!! There is actually no way to get someone to come up even tho they had promised AND even if I pay them, the problem being Im not here to make sure they do as they say!!! Hence I sold them for that reason entirely!!! However the viv was made by John out of Stockport Pet warehouse and it is a 30 inches by 3o inches by 1 foot viv in which he made himself and was realy proud of what he did!!!! So that is why im getting it rekitted up with 3 plants from dartfrog.co.uk and a monsoon system with a hygrostat so if it ever gets below the minimum humidity then the monsoon system will switch on until the required humidity is there!!! Plus im not planning to purchase any more frogs till way after new year whereas im am concentrating on culturing fuit flies, tropical woodlice and springtails!!! So when I have the knack of that sorted what then will stop me from raising a beginners dart frog????


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

How about the fact that you will have to sell them the next time you go on holiday again? Quoting you:-

"the reason I HAD to sell me whites was because I had nop one to look after them whilst I was on holiday!!!!"

and:-

"have had lizards before and asked (and even paid) my cousin to come up to look after them, in which after I had paid I had found out he never came up once!!!! There is actually no way to get someone to come up even tho they had promised AND even if I pay them"

So what's changed since then? Have you now found somebody who knows what they are doing who can come and look after your frogs? Given the fact that you can't even trust somebody to look after lizards, and dart frogs take a fair bit more care. Or are you just going to sell them again when you next go on holiday?

When you get into dart frogs, you take on a commitment, a commitment to ensure that they are looked after properly. Whether this is by you, or somebody you can trust. If you can not make this commitment with certainty, then seriously don't get into the dart hobby.

Some folks have people they can trust to look after them whilst they go on holiday, those that don't don't go on holiday. We don't go on long holidays as as yet we haven't found somebody we can teach to look after our frogs who can then come in and frog sit for us.

If you can't show this kind of dedication, or be certain you can find somebody to frog sit for you, then you should reconsider keeping dart frogs.


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I personally think that amazon milk frogs require more height. They are very active and my 2 are nuts! They are also nocturnal so no good for viewing during the day. The males are also VERY noisy! I'd say they have similar care requirements to whites.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> I cannot get any at the mo as Im going on a caribbean cruise and the reason I HAD to sell me whites was because I had nop one to look after them whilst I was on holiday!!!! I have had lizards before and asked (and even paid) my cousin to come up to look after them, in which after I had paid I had found out he never came up once!!!! There is actually no way to get someone to come up even tho they had promised AND even if I pay them, the problem being Im not here to make sure they do as they say!!! Hence I sold them for that reason entirely!!! However the viv was made by John out of Stockport Pet warehouse and it is a 30 inches by 3o inches by 1 foot viv in which he made himself and was realy proud of what he did!!!! So that is why im getting it rekitted up with 3 plants from dartfrog.co.uk and a monsoon system with a hygrostat so if it ever gets below the minimum humidity then the monsoon system will switch on until the required humidity is there!!! Plus im not planning to purchase any more frogs till way after new year whereas im am concentrating on culturing fuit flies, tropical woodlice and springtails!!! So when I have the knack of that sorted *what then will stop me from raising a beginners dart frog????*


I'm sure there will be something.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Im not getting the frogs now!!!!! I am thinking of at least 6 months in the future!!!!! Its the way I work!!! I like to plan in advance as to what would suit the terrarium and just look in the viv and imagine a few suitable frogs in the viv!!! I apologise if u misunderstood me and thought I was getting the frogs ehre and now, I was just asking what frogs would be suitable in the terrarium if and when I get some!!! And what would u do to change any features in the viv as I have Jon (fro stockport pet warehouse) comming soon to make any admendments and install a filter and Exo-Terra Monsoon into my viv  Lastly this is the last holiday I am going on now for a very good while!!! After this holiday and going into next September I want to hopefully get into Reaseheath College and do a GNVQ Level 2 course in Animal Care which would lead into a degree so hence I will have no time for holidays after this one!!!


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Good luck getting into doing a degree with a level 2 I'm currently doing a level 3 animal management course and I'd still have to start out with a foundation year before the degree. I'm wanting to do zoology.


----------



## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

I went into a degree from a diploma which I think was level 4.
I know each course is different but you will struggle with a level 2


----------



## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

reptileman33 said:


> *Im not getting the frogs now!!!!! I am thinking of at least 6 months in the future!!!!! Its the way I work!!*! I like to plan in advance as to what would suit the terrarium and just look in the viv and imagine a few suitable frogs in the viv!!! I apologise if u misunderstood me and thought I was getting the frogs ehre and now, I was just asking what frogs would be suitable in the terrarium if and when I get some!!! And what would u do to change any features in the viv as I have Jon (fro stockport pet warehouse) comming soon to make any admendments and install a filter and Exo-Terra Monsoon into my viv  Lastly this is the last holiday I am going on now for a very good while!!! After this holiday and going into next September I want to hopefully get into Reaseheath College and do a GNVQ Level 2 course in Animal Care which would lead into a degree so hence I will have no time for holidays after this one!!!



You might want to tell emma30 this then as i dont think she will hold the tincs for 6 months for you 2 Dart frogs *can take to donny in november*

and also state in your wanted add for vents that you dont want them for 6 months as its all very confusing

anyway ive said my bit good luck with whatever you decide

Richie


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Aye but a GNVQ is a good starting block!!!! Ill then progress onto GNVQ level 3 and then a degree!!!! Theres no rush!!!! Like I said Im only asking what would people say I should EVENTUALY put into my terarium (ie which frogs would suit it best???) If you can help me I would be extremely grate ful and any amendments to the terrarium would be listened to with much appreciation!!! Plus if you will see I have asked a moderator to remove the advertisement but if any of you know a mod can you please ask them to remove the advertisement for me???


Many thanks

Martin Dean


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

You only need one exclamation mark per sentence!!!! And you don't need to finish every sentence with them!!!!!


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Haha. That is all.


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Reptileman, stop. Read. Research. Listen to the advice you are being given. Read and research a bit more. Pay attention to what other people on here are doing, and the reasons they give for doing it. Read and research again. then stop again, and think all this through. When you have a slightly longer attention span than a gerbil on speed, decide on one of the easier frogs (ie *not* dart frogs!), read and research again, and set up a viv that is suitable *for them*. Animals are not toys, to be put where you like and chucked out when you get bored, they are living things, and until you can take that seriously, you probably shouldn't keep them at all.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

This terrarium was made by Jon (Out of Stockport Pet Warehouse) and you are saying that its unsuitable for any frogs whatsoever!!!! He has got a really good reputation in regards to looking after reptiles so all I a asking is what would you change in my terrarium to make it more suitable for any of the beginner frogs to own (ie green tree or grey tree frog or whites???)??? If anyone could please present me with any good ideas I will be surew to take them on I promise!!!!! Lastly Ill be asking him for any improvements that can be made and Ill have the plants sent here before he arrives to do up me terrarium!!!! Lastly on a different note when I come to breeding springtails and tropical woodlice and fruit flys Ill be placing thier containers on a mat so would u say it would be wise for me to purchase a mat stat too?


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Just....stop. And listen, for God's sake listen.

It's not the terrarium itself, it's what inside. Every frog has different requirements, different needs in terms of what you put in your enclosure. A tree frog needs foliage. A Fire-Bellied Toad needs water. A Spadefoot Toad needs deep substrate. Cool your jets, decide on one species that suits you best, then change the terrarium around that particular frog.

It's no good asking what you need to change when we can't tell you, because you don't even know what you're putting in the tank.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

If you end up with a degree I will shoot myself.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Thats what I was asking, I really do wish to go for milk frogs or if I cannopt them big eyed/Peacock Tree Frogs so with that assumption what would you change in my terarrium to suit the needs of either of these two frogs??? I am getting some Bromiliards (however u spell them) and some creeping fig to put in my viv from dartfrog.co.uk. So all Help would be appreciated!!! And plus its just amps that im starting with ask me anything about lizards and I promise Il know the answer!!!


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

It's too small.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Then what would you suggest Morgan????? its an exoterra 30 inches long by 30 Plus the bloke in Stockport Pet Warehouse had 3 different types of dart frogs in it and if you ask around he has a very good reputation from what ive heard???


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

I dont claim to know too much about amphibians, but if I was you I would be sitting down, doing as much research as I could. That is what I am doing, from reading your thread today I have been disheartened and questioned if I can keep Darts in the new year. But from reading through this thread again I realized something. You and I are completely different. Im not trying to be disrespectful, but I would never dive into getting an animal as you are seemingly trying to do. And then back tracking, open your ears and listen to what people are telling you. Quit asking all the irrelevant questions "can this go in here can that go in there" take a step back and try to understand you are going about this the wrong way, and by doing so putting people's noses out of joint, people that will begrudge helping you in the future.

Remember im not having a go...........

good luck.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

I know this but when I look on the internet on caresheets they tell you the appropiate terririum size in american units (ie gallons) So how many Gallons does a 30 inch by 30 inch by 1 foot viv hold???? Once I know that then I can look on care sheets and see what frogs they say would be appriopiate for my terrarium???? Plus im not trying to upset anyone, its just that im getting really confused seriously!!! How can a viv be too small for a smaller frog (such as a milk frog) and not be too small for a whites or green tree frog which grow bigger in the end???? All I am asking for is help!!!


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Look on the internet for volume calculators. Can I ask why you haven't done this before now? You obviously knew you needed to do it to see what was a suitable tenant for that viv?


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

As seriously im no good at maths!!!!! I dunno how to work out volumes!!! When I took my maths GCSE it was a good 10 years ago when I was 16/17, Im now 33!!!


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Thats why you get an online calculator to do it for you?


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

*Face palm*

ETA: !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Nitpicking a bit but......if you did your GCSE's 10 years ago when you were 16/17 and you are now 33 then im afraid to tell you but, you are quite bad at maths. 16 + 10 = 26.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

reptileman33 said:


> Then what would you suggest Morgan????? its an exoterra 30 inches long by 30 Plus the bloke in Stockport Pet Warehouse had 3 different types of dart frogs in it and if you ask around he has a very good reputation from what ive heard???


If you reread that, you will see a very clear contradiction:-

"the bloke in Stockpor Pet Warehouse had 3 different types of dart frogs in it"

and

"he has a very good reputation"

the first part seriously contradicts the second, on this you can put money.

Next, I don't give a hoot what kind of a reputation he has with reptiles, frogs are amphibians NOT reptiles. You would be doing yourself a huge favour if you learned the differences.

Next, exo terra don't actually make a 30 inch x30 inch x 12 inch vivarium. So your measurements are wrong. A good start would be to actually tell us the truth about the size of this vivarium.

All this said, I wont be offering you any further help or advice, for the simple reason you aren't listening and are lieing and contradicting yourself all over the place. I have come to believe that you consider animals to be toys, there for your enjoyment.

I wont wish you luck, as to be honest unless things change hugely, I would be happier if you just kept a pet rock.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

So my viv is basically big enougth for 2 to four Amazon Milk frogs as said in this care sheet (Amazon milk frogs are large tree frogs that should be kept in a cage that offers plenty of room. A standard 29 gallon aquarium that measures 30 inches long by 12 inches wide by 18 inches high (76 cm by 30 cm by 46 cm) is enough room for two to four adult Amazon milk frogs) AS mine is 30 inches by 30 inchs by 12 inchs so unless the care sheet is wrong or someone else is wrong???? A 30 gallon tank should be adequate for 2-3 adult Milks, says another!!!! So how is my terrarium too small if the care sheets are telling me it isnt???!!???:bash: I have re-measured the viv!!! (Considering I feel ill!!) And yes you are right!!!! Its a 2 foot by 2 foot by 18 inch viv which I used an online calc which says it as a volume of 37 Gallons in which I still have enougth space according to the care sheets!!! And talking about Stockport Pet Warehouse ask anyone from Manchester what the top two shops in Manchester are??? IMO Viper and vine and Stockport Pet Warehouse!!!!! Ask anyone!!!


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Your viv is NOT 30 inches x 30 inches x 12 inches! Exo Terra do not make them in that size. Further, you need a 60cm HIGH (24 inches) viv for the majority of tree frogs, including Amazon milks.

Stop talking, start listening, and when you must talk try to tell the truth.


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I would reccomend at least a 45x45x60 for 2 amazons. They need the height and are very active frogs.


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Mate, you aint doing yourself any favours here.


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> *If you reread that, you will see a very clear contradiction:-
> 
> "the bloke in Stockpor Pet Warehouse had 3 different types of dart frogs in it"* *
> 
> ...


I was going to take up that point, but decided it wasn't worth the effort. Hopeless case.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

So Jazzy whats the point in having Care Sheets if they aint truthful????? The people may as well of not bothered putting them online if everyone is contradicting with them???? Does anyone onhere know John out of Stockport Pet Warehouse???? If so can I have thier honest opinion on hias abilities!!! Considering also he is looking after a caimen in his shop I think that more than qualifys him for looking after Amphibians dont u think????


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Because some of these people have never kept the species before? I've had my amazons over a year now and I'd hate to see them in anything smaller than what they are in right now. They use the height more than anything. People have different opinions and this is mine and probably many others.


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

A caiman is a reptile.. :whistling2: Big woop! He clearly doesn't know a great deal about phibs and maybe he should stick to his caimans.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

reptileman33 said:


> Considering also he is looking after a caimen in his shop I think that more than qualifys him for looking after Amphibians dont u think????


looking after one high level animal dosent mean you can look after anything. i can take care of a racehorse and maintain it at a good level, dosent mean id know what to do with a zebra.

yeah, bad example but you get my drift.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

So then in wwhich im asking IF I cannot go by what the care sheets on the internet are saying by what is an idea terrarium for the frogs then can I have your help please!!!! Can ANY frog go in a terrarium which is 2 foot by 2 foot by 1 inches?????? Once I have the type of frog that can safely go in this Terrarium then I can start doing research into it!!!! As at the momemt I am stuck on step one!!! I need to walk before I can run!!! So please, pretty please can you tell me what frogs are suitable for a 2 foot by 2 foot high by 18 ich wide exo-terra terrarium?????:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: Im begging you lot here!!! And isnt a caimen an amphibian since it spends time in and out of the water??? I dont know if it is a Caimen all I know is it is a type of crocodile/aligator and its bloody big!!!


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Nothing with it set up like that.


----------



## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

This has to be a wind up.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Then what would you change in my viv???? The reason I am asking this is that Jon is comming round next Tuesday to re-arrange my terrarium and put in a exo-terra Monsoon and plants and re arranging things for me!!! So Id like opinions on what could be changed in the terrarium for the better please instead of giving me negative responses!!! If you can tell me something positive then I can tell him what to do and get it done!!! Why does it have to be a wind up??? I admit I am a beginner in the amps section of this and I admit I need as much help as I can get but by giving me negative responses you arent helping!!!


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

> And isnt a caimen an amphibian since it spends time in and out of the water??? I dont know if it is a Caimen all I know is it is a type of crocodile/aligator and its bloody big!!!


PMSL! Damn you need to do some reading... even my 12 yr old brother who holds little interest in animals knows the difference between reptiles and amphibians...


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

reptileman33 said:


> Then what would you change in my viv???? The reason I am asking this is that Jon is comming round next Tuesday to re-arrange my terrarium and put in a exo-terra Monsoon and plants and re arranging things for me!!! So Id like opinions on what could be changed in the terrarium for the better please instead of giving me negative responses!!! If you can tell me something positive then I can tell him what to do and get it done!!! Why does it have to be a wind up??? I admit I am a beginner in the amps section of this and I admit I need as much help as I can get but by giving me negative responses you arent helping!!!


Take all the moss out and start again... do some reading on creating a false bottom etc.. Why can't you set your tank up on your own?


----------



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Anyone thought that he could be the troll that was on here before?


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

colinm said:


> Anyone thought that he could be the troll that was on here before?


I am starting to think that...


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Well I aint interested in what the difference is!!! All I am interested in is what alterations would u make in the terrarium to make it more suitable to have frogs in it???? Isnt this meant to be a forum where people help people new to this or does everyone have to be experts on this??? Or is it a site in which we just take the P*** out of every newbie??? Why troll?? I am asking seriously for help and all you lot are doing is taking the mick out of me!!! Hence I have said someone is comming round to make alterations but I need to advise him on what altertions need doing???


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Your the one taking the piss... you've had some great responses from people that know their stuff. 
If you are serious, do a forum search on creating false bottom vivs (needed for growing plants) And look at some examples, they will show you where you have gone wrong.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

I has got a false bottom in it!!! That is where the water and pump is that pumps the water to the top of the terrarium in which in then goes down slates as in a waterfall effect!!! Ill tell him to remove the moss!!! Anything else that could need doing??? Like I said it has a false bottom in the viv and that is where I am going to be putting my broms!!! you just cannot see it in the piccy!!!


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Remove all the moss and start again... maybe add some planters to the background.. 

I've got too much cider in my system to write any kind of long post.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Thats what I am doing!!! I have already ordered 3 different types of broms from Dartfrog.co.uk and 3 differnt types of creepers!!! Once they have been added and the moss removed then do you want to see a picture and give me any more opinions??? Lstly on getting to my other question on breeding livefoods (tropical woodlice, springtails and fruit flys) would u say to get a mat stat to go on the heat mat that the containers of livefoods are going to be going on???? I asked them at Manchester Pet and aquatics and they had no idea!!!


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Lastly you lot are taking the mick of someone who has Aspergers Syndrome so I hope you will take that into consideration when upsetting me in the way you lot are!!! Im sorry if I sound like im taking the mickey but I just want to know what to do to make the viv nicer??? I cannot do vivs as im not creative enougth!!! Not everyone has high creativity skills!!


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aspergers doesn't effect the ability to understand simple instructions, it effects the ability to properly filter emotions (eg. if you tell somebody with aspergers that you are going to kill them, often they will believe you and be really upset). It has nothing to do with your inability to answer the questions asked, and to follow the advice that has already been given.

It also does not cause people to lie. Your viv is NOT a 30 inch x 30 inch by 12 inch exo terra, for the simple reason you can not buy a 30 inch x 30inch by 12 inch exo terra because they don't exist. I have already told you, if you give use the REAL dimensions, then we will be happy to make suggestions. From that photograph though, I can see that the lighting is an Exo Terra compact top with 2 bulbs, which means it is 45cms long. It is running the full width of your viv, which tells me that the viv is only 45cms long, this is only 17.7 inches (usually rounded up to 18 inches). You must think we are stupid, as it's pretty obvious that that viv is a 45cm cube, nowhere near the 30 inches by 30 inches by 12 inches you insist you have.

So, let's examine the facts here:-

1) You are quite obviously NOT telling the truth about the size of the viv.
2) You are ignoring good advice, and just posting rubbish in reply.
3) You are trying to claim that everybody is just bullying you.
4) You have claimed you have a condition that means we should not upset you.
5) You contradict yourself constantly.

Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck. You are no way just a newbie, you are an obvious troll. I have finished wasting my time entertaining a troll, who is sitting behind their keyboard thinking they are so clever and funny with their ability to troll people who WERE trying to help somebody who MIGHT have been a genuine newbie.

So no, I for one am not going to offer you any more help or advice, because I don't believe you are genuine.


----------



## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

Hey Martin.

I'm just gonna add my two pennies worth, as your fast losing the respect of some really knowledgeable guys here. You may not care now, but IF you ever get into darts, you will regret not having these guys on board; IMO, go eat some humble pie.

Next, after reading the last few pages consecutively, I can see your biggest hurdle is your vivarium. I know it has been hand crafted by your idol, but do yourself a favor: sell it; stick it in the attic; throw it out the window!. Bottom line - make that viv disappear.

Now start again:

Find a species you like.
Research.
Buy the correct size and APPROPRIATE vivarium.
Buy all relevant equipment/resources.
Set up vivarium in a manner that will allow chosen species to thrive.
Test run vivarium/allow time to settle.
Ensure that you have thought ahead with any additional requirements (e.g. food source, babysitters, reptile vet etc).
* Given your recent threads I would add this point for you - Post pictures of vivarium + high/low temps, humidity levels, chosen foods etc etc. Get opinions.
Last minute research/checks/adjustments.
Buy frogs.
Enjoy.

But seriously Martin, if you don't know what to do with that terrarium yet, just get rid of it. It is confusing you so much.


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> It also does not cause people to lie. Your viv is NOT a 30 inch x 30 inch by 12 inch exo terra, for the simple reason you can not buy a 30 inch x 30inch by 12 inch exo terra because they don't exist. I have already told you, if you give use the REAL dimensions, then we will be happy to make suggestions. From that photograph though, I can see that the lighting is an Exo Terra compact top with 2 bulbs, which means it is 45cms long. It is running the full width of your viv, which tells me that the viv is only 45cms long, this is only 17.7 inches (usually rounded up to 18 inches). You must think we are stupid, as it's pretty obvious that that viv is a 45cm cube, nowhere near the 30 inches by 30 inches by 12 inches you insist you have.


Wolfenrook pullin' the ol' Sherlock Holmes :lol2:

But yeah, I agree with everything he, and Heim, have said.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

I've already got the viv and all I was asking is what needs changing in it before it can house any type of exotic in it and it doesn't have to take 7 pages to tell me this, all I was asking is what needs changing in the viv and take it from there!!!! Why does it have to take 7 pages for someone to look at the piccie and offer suggestions of improvements??? I did post the piccie of my viv at the beginning and opinions is all I wanted!!!!! Now I have the viv it needs using don't u think or it be a waste of money!!!


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

I've already got the viv and all I was asking is what needs changing in it before it can house any type of exotic in it and it doesn't have to take 7 pages to tell me this, all I was asking is what needs changing in the viv and take it from there!!!! Why does it have to take 7 pages for someone to look at the piccie and offer suggestions of improvements??? jazzy has done the best here (many thanks to him) by giving me the advice of moving the moss!!!


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

reptileman33 said:


> I've already got the viv and all I was asking is what needs changing in it before it can house any type of exotic in it and it doesn't have to take 7 pages to tell me this


No, it doesn't. It would have only taken 1-2 pages if you'd listen to people's answers.

As far as scratching the current viv is concerned, maybe you should have thought about what you'd keep in it before you got it. It's your fault it's a waste of money, not ours.

People have given you advice over and over again, but you're only choosing to hear what you want to hear. So listen this time, yeah?

*Choose the frog that's best for you, research it's care as much as you can, and then think about the viv.*

People can't tell you how to improve it, because we don't know what it's being improved for. But as people have said, you're probably going to have to start from scrath, once you've picked a frog.

Do some research, come back in a month or two with a head fulla' knowledge and a particular species picked, then we can help you change the vivarium to suit that frog's needs. Hell, once you've done enough research, you may not even need our help anymore!


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

There's the thing, Jazzy DIDN'T just tell you to remove the moss, Jazzy also gave lots of other advice as well, the same as the rest of us, which you either ignored, or argued with on the grounds that some guy with a caimain (a crocodilian REPTILE that happens to be amphibious, NOT an amphibian) clearly knows more than any of us possibly could.

We have also pointed out that you aren't telling us the truth about the size of the viv, I had to work it out for myself that it is only a 45cm cube. You keep insisting you want help and advice, but when folks offer it you argue or ignore, you just keep talking garbage over and over. Oh and we DID give you some very good advice pages and pages ago, that you would probably be best ripping it out completely and setting it up for fire bellied toads, which just by the by, you can fit 3 or 4 in a 45cm cube exo terra.... You completely and utterly ignored it, and kept going on about totally unsuitable frogs, heck you even stated that r. reticulata (considered difficult even by experienced dart keepers) were suitable... 

It's taken 7 pages as that's how long it has taken us to realise you are just another lame troll, and stop bothering trying to give you advice. Basically because we really do like to try to help people, and think that they are just been daft, rather than accept that they are stupid trolls. (by the way, this for me is page 8... lol).

Heck, I am only still bothering to reply because it's still amusing me to do so, not really got anything better to do right now. I am going to go read a book now though, and unsubscribe from this thread, as it's getting boring and repetitive now, you seem to be running out of ideas on how you can troll us. lol

Edit to say, this became page 9 whilst I was typing. lol


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

And for the record I'm a her not a him


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> Then what would you suggest Morgan????? its an exoterra 30 inches long by 30 Plus the bloke in Stockport Pet Warehouse had 3 different types of dart frogs in it and if you ask around he has a very good reputation from what ive heard???


No it isn't. I'm a massive plant geek and I can work out the size by the plants you have. It's a 45cm cube at best BUT it's 50% full with stuff.


If he had 3 different species in that size tank his reputation needs to be questioned. Never heard of the place.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> And for the record I'm a her not a him


So you say :whistling2:


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Well I don't mind what I said b4 and go for a pair of amazon milk frogs so all i need to know now is what i need to change in the viv to accomodate them ??? Also I dont think it all should be demolised as I don't think it's fair on the person (John out of Spw) that I demolished the wok he has done as he spent a good amount of time building it and putting in a nice man made waterfall and plenty of places where the milk frog can climb!!! Lastly I'll take out a lot of the moss and put in the brooms and the wall crawling plants in the back but I'll wait for him to do it as he knows what not to disturb in the viv!!! So apart from the moss is there anything else someone would recommend to suit the amazon milk frogs??? and it is a 2 foot by 2 foot by 18 inch viv as its been measured and I can prove that if needed???


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> Well I don't mind what I said b4 and go for a pair of amazon milk frogs so all i need to know now is what i need to chance in the viv to accomodate them ??? Also I dont think it all should be demolised as I don't think it's fair on the person (John out of Spw) that I demolished the wok he has done as he spent a good amount of time building it and putting in a nice man made waterfall and plenty of places where the milk frog can climb!!! Lastly I'll take out a lot of the moss and put in the brooms and the wall crawling plants in the back but I'll wait for him to do it as he knows what not to disturb in the viv!!! So apart from the moss is there anything else someone would recommend to suit the amazon milk frogs???


If it has to be demolished it's your fault, not ours.

That viv will never be suitable for milk frogs, whatever you do. He didn't build it for milk frogs, stop lying.


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> So you say :whistling2:


Yes I say









:lol2:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

THAT VIV IS TOO SMALL FOR AMAZON MILK FROGS!! :bash:


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

> If you can tell me something positive then I can tell him what to do and get it done!!!


Im not being funny, but.....if this guy is an expert that you are inviting round your house to sort your viv out to make it suitable for frogs, why do you need to tell him what to do? :whistling2:


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> THAT VIV IS TOO SMALL FOR AMAZON MILK FROGS!! :bash:


So you say :whistling2:


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Yes I say
> image
> 
> :lol2:


:gasp:Your some kind of lizard? Not a human at all! :gasp:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

zekee said:


> :gasp:Your some kind of lizard? Not a human at all! :gasp:


Thats right, I'm an R chahoua... got locust? :lol2:


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> So you say :whistling2:


come on guys you could squeeze at least 50 adults in there. :whistling2:


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

what about a salamander?


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Thats right, I'm an R chahoua... got locust? :lol2:


Now don't you just feel so free now you finally got that off your chest? :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I'll get my coat... :lol2:


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Like I said I'll leave him to sort it out and if the care sheets are right then a 37 gallon viv IS suitable for a pair of milk frogs as long as their is sufficient hiding places in it!!! Which there will be as I'll have 3 broms in it at least and other places for them to hide from each other!!! According to a lot of care sheets a 30 gallon viv is ok for a group of 4 milk frogs never mind 2!!!


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

"La la la"


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

I think everyone's had enough of this thread and of you.


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I hope they keep you awake at night like mine does. He's lucky I love him! 

Although I wouldn't put 1 in a 45 cube let alone 4. But if you do I hope they are all male.


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

so your going to ignore everything people on here have told you and do what the hell you want as you've found one care sheet that said what you wanted to here?

off you trot then, hope the care sheet covers what to do when something goes wrong.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

well like I have said someone was asking about milk frogs on here and where is the best place to get them from and he was also given a caresheet which states that 4 milks can do well in a 30 gallon terrarium so if 4 can do well in a 30 gallon one then why cannot 2 in a 37 gallon terrarium please answer that or is the caresheet that he was given a load of rubbish then????

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibian-care-sheets/440946-amazon-milk-frog-care-sheet.html

If you clearly READ the care sheet he was given it says and I quote: *Cage:* Amazon milk frogs are large tree frogs that should be kept in a cage that offers plenty of room. A standard 29 gallon aquarium that measures 30 inches long by 12 inches wide by 18 inches high (76 cm by 30 cm by 46 cm) is enough room for two to four adult Amazon milk frogs, although more room is better.

So unless you are arguing with that and also stating that whoever wrote this caresheet must be wrong also????? Well no one on here gives any help anyway apart from pissing each other off!!!

Seriously I have had trouble like this in the past and no wonder no one uses this forum to get help!!! Ill ask on Dendroworld where people on there re actually intelligent enougth to give decent answers and not BULLSHIT!!!


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

reptileman33 said:


> Like I said I'll leave him to sort it out and if the care sheets are right then a 37 gallon viv IS suitable for a pair of milk frogs as long as their is sufficient hiding places in it!!! Which there will be as I'll have 3 broms in it at least and other places for them to hide from each other!!! According to a lot of care sheets a 30 gallon viv is ok for a group of 4 milk frogs never mind 2!!!


Oh for God's sake.

Your tank is not 30 gallons. It's a 45cm cube, from what people say, which I'd estimate at about the 10-15 gallon range.



> Seriously I have had trouble like this in the past and no wonder no one uses this forum to get help!!! Ill ask on Dendroworld where people on there re actually intelligent enougth to give decent answers and not BULLSHIT!!!


If you do, please link me to the aforementioned thread. It will be highly enjoyable and humorous reading material.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

My viv is 2 foot by 2 foot by 18 inches wide if u want i can show u with a tape measure???? Hence it is 37 gallons in volume!!!

You might not be able to tell in the piccies but the lenght and height are BOTH 2 foot!!!:




























So please can u stop the bollox about the viv being a 45cm cube and clearly u dont know yer sizes and aint that good an expert on plants if u got the size of me viv wrong!!! I did but then Ive admittedits been a while since I did maths!!!


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

reptileman33 said:


> My viv is 2 foot by 2 foot by 18 inches wide if u want i can show u with a tape measure???? Hence it is 37 gallons in volume!!!


Wolfenrook's detective skills never lie.


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Go on then show us with a measuring tape.


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Hmmm seems it is 2ft by 2ft.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

What do u think I have done in the two piccies above??? Sure they aint great but where taken with a ipad2 at night!!! Not the best camera im sure of it!!! Think I deserve an apology lol!!! HENCE BIG ENOUGTH FOR MILK FROGS!!!


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Ok, my mistake. I apologize. So your tank is the right size.

While I'm apologizing, I might as well also apologize for my-and others-attitude towards you in this thread. No doubt, we've been poking fun a little too much, for which I am sorry.

But if you really want Milk Frogs, you're going to have to listen to the answers you don't like as well as the ones you do-the interior _is_ going to need a reworking, and it may seem like a shame, and a waste of money, but it's all for the benefit of the frogs, right?

Take a breath, sit down, and take a good hard look at your tank. The size is right, so that's a strong start.

But, looking at the pictures, there's a few changes that need to be made. It looks like you have a substrate/moss slope from the front to the back in the tank, and it's taking up too much valuable space. You're going to want to ditch it. The frogs only need roughly an inch of substrate, as they don't spend much time on the ground anyway. A flat, thin layer of coconut fiber, moss, etc, on the tank bottom will be all that is neccesary.

You'll want to put in lots more branches too. Products such as Exo Terra's Jungle Vines are good, and if you look around online reptile/amphibian shops, there'll be plenty of branches for sale, as well as cork slabs and tubes which the frogs might appreciate as hiding places.

Consider adding a different background-there are some on Dartfrog.co.uk you can order that plants will grow on easily. Backgrounds will also add a sense of security for the frogs.

I think the waterfall can stay though-I'm no amphib expert, bear in mind, so if I'm offering wrong advice, please, any of the more experienced members, feel free to point out my mistakes.

Once again, my apologies mate


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Thank-you for the apology and Ill tell the bloke that is comming round exactly what u said, in fact ill do him a printout of all that needs to be done!!! Hopefully he will be in the shop tommorow so I can ask him to bring round anything he deems approipiate!!!!!l The thing is im getting some broms so wont they need say an inch of moss or organic soil in which to grow???? Can broms grow in the stuff you was saying for me to get????? Also wont I need moss or organic soil in the back for the creepers to grow????? But I do admit I am a ciomplete newbie in doing this!!! All I want is a place in which the frogs can survive for maybe a year and then hopefully say in 2013 Ill be able to get him to build me a even bigger exo-terra viv as Ill ask him to base it on the biuggest exo-terra viv you can buy!!! 3 feet by 18 inches by 3 feet I think is the tallest im im right??? I know I admit I shouldnt of purchased the whites tree frogs knowing I was going on holiday but I thought I could trust the person who was coming up to look after them!!!???!! In this day and age who can you trust????? Anyhow Ill make a printout of that last comment by Sourgrapes and Ill bring it and show the person who built this terrarium!!! I do really apologise to everyone and Ill tell him to do everything that you said to do sourgrapes!!! Lastly I dunno about everyone else but am I the only person who hasnt the creativity skills to build a terrarium????? I dunno but ive never been good at art or crafts or anything like that!!!


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Seriously thats all I needed was for someone to point out the flaws in my terrarium so I can tell the person who made it and we can get them all sorted!!! By the way I wouldnt be purchasing any frogs till way after spring as its generally to cold to be transporting them from any shops!!!!:devil::devil: Even with heat packs lol!!!

One last thing whilst im waiting for this country to re heat up can someone tell me if Im best getting a mat stat for the heat mat on which the tubs of spingtails, fruit flys and tropical woodlice are to be cultured on??? I mean can a heat mat get too hot for them without a mat stat??? Im thinking its a good idea but am I wasting money???


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Well, I'd say I could draw pretty well (not trying to be big-headed or anything), but for the life of me anything that isn't on paper and requires artistic skill I have difficulty with.

As far as the plants are concerned, I guess it would depend on the species. Any ideas what particular types you're getting? I'm not great with plants, you'd probably be better asking Morgan Freeman...

I _do_ know you can get backgrounds (Namibia Terra Jungle Planting Mats) which have built-in pockets in which the bromeliads can-so they say-be planted in. Once again, I'm not exactly the resident plant expert, so...

You could also try fake plants. They'll be much less hassle than their live counterparts, and although they're not going to raise the humidity, they look good, the frogs don't seem to mind and they make terrarium maintenance a lot easier.

Also, if you're sticking with these milk frogs, cultures of tiny insects such as fruit flies, springtails, etc, won't be needed. They're big frogs, with big appetites to match. The usual options, such as suitably-sized crickets, are better. They'll just ignore springtails and woodlice for the most part, too small for such large tree frogs to bother with.

But for the record, stat's should be used with all heat sources, as any could get too hot really-it's a neccessary safety precaution.


----------



## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

can't quite say from the pics, but you should look at changing quite a bit around.

first of all now this is only my opinion so don't shoot me down for this, you might want to look into something a little less delicate than milks, something like greys or greens would be suitable, they are nice and hardy

or a nice groups of firebellies if you are to increase the water portion safely available to them

this is coming from someone who hasnt kept milks though so i might be wrong.

now, you need to add more branches for a tree frog species, or more lower pieces of driftwood ect for something like FBTs 

plant wise, a good few climbers and maybe some ferns if the conditions are right


----------



## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

In my opinion (not that I know a huge amount about live planting) but you have far to much stuff in the viv. 
Ok you have confirmed the size but how much of it is usable. Its one of the things I learnt at college, it may look super pretty but if the animal cant use it its a waste of space!
When this person comes over and re does it I would say take loads of stuff out of it. Have a look at Morgans,richies e.t.c. vivs to get some good examples of how vivs should be for various species and go from there. 

But I wouldnt get him to come over soon to sort it. Do some proper research on the species you want. You have said you wont be getting them for months so why does he have to fix it now? 
Learn what the species you finally want needs. As people have said, pick the animal then design the viv around it, not the other way around. 

There are some very knowledgeable people on this site which hopefully you havent annoyed with how you have shown yourself. 
Take a few minutes and re read what has been posted, there is some good information writte, if you exclude Jazzys chest area :whistling2:
If you are really stuck but dont want to publicly ask people just send them a PM, most are happy to talk about issues. Richie has answered a fair few of my questions in the past.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> What do u think I have done in the two piccies above??? Sure they aint great but where taken with a ipad2 at night!!! Not the best camera im sure of it!!! Think I deserve an apology lol!!! HENCE BIG ENOUGTH FOR MILK FROGS!!!


That's a different pic to the Op. You showed half of it and cut out the exo terra clips. No apology, had you realised that's what people were seeing you would have explained, but no, it's by pure chance you post a full picture and people worked it out 12 pages later.


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

I had an suspicion it was. But couldn't be sure.


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

I can see the same decor in it though? Am I missing something?


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Thats why I wasn't sure?


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

FallenAngel said:


> if you exclude Jazzys chest area :whistling2:


:Na_Na_Na_Na:


:lol2:


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)




----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Tibet? I dont get it?


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

zekee said:


> Tibet? I dont get it?


It makes as much sense as this thread.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I am quite happy to say sorry for calling you a troll, however I did so because you were behaving like one.

It took you 11 pages of us asking for you to actually bother to get a tape measure and find out the ACTUAL dimensions of your viv! How many times did I ask you for these? How many times did you tell me it was 30 inches wide, 30 inches deep and 12 inches high? How many times did I point out that you were mistaken as Exo Terra don't make vivs in those dimensions?

What you actually have is a 60cm x 45cm x 60cm exo terra, with a too high substrate. Now we know this, we might just be able to actually offer you help and advice, rather than arguing with you!

All that said, until you appologise to everybody here for leading them on a merry dance of bs, and for insulting people left right and center, I certainly wont be. I, and some others, have appologised for calling you a troll, now it's your turn.

Regards


----------



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I removed Martin from the forum in the past (when I was a mod o'course!)for his own good. 
He has genuine learning disabilities and Aspergers, he doesn't mean to be infuriating but he can't help it.

He can't critically read a caresheet and compare it to others and throw out the rubbish bits like you guys might,
He can't take in all of the details of the posts he is reading and reply appropriately to all of the questions,
He doesn't mean to "lie" or mislead, he doesn't think to check, in his head what he thinks the measurements were or the brand etc is fact,
He struggles to communicate in the first place and can't articulate himself very well once people start calling him a troll or calling him an idiot, the more frustrated he then gets the less likely you are to get much sense out of him,
He doesn't intend to harm or poorly keep any animals, he cares about them a lot but as a result of his personal situation he may make mistakes that we can't understand (buying baby treefrogs weeks before you go on holiday and having to sell them)

If you can't stand his posts and repetitive topics just don't contribute to them.
Whether you like it or not people will sell him animals, isn't it better to focus on trying to give Martin the information and guidance needed for the sake of the animals?

Slow, steady and forgiving is the best way to try and help. Martin, you're more than welcome to PM me again.


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

This thread is getting stranger by the reply!


----------



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Well I would like to applogise for calling you a troll.Sorry.This all makes sense now as I have a fbrother with Aspergers syndrome.

What species are you now going to keep in there? This will affect the layout of the vivarium.In my opinion you could keep Dartfrogs or any of the treefrogs in there.

It really depends what you want out of the frogs.Dartfrogs are active by day whilst treefrogs are active by night.You should also think about their feeding,Dartfrogs need much smaller food such as fruitflies whereas treefrogs will eat crickets.This is an important point as you will probably have to culture fruitflies whereas you can buy crickets from shops.

Personally I like Dartfrogs as they are very active in the day and they have some very interesting habits.To me treefrogs sit on a piece of log or the side of the glass all day and crash around at night.


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Just gonna apologize again for my behavior, hope everything goes smoothly for ya Martin. : victory:


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

Saedcantas said:


> I removed Martin from the forum in the past (when I was a mod o'course!)for his own good.
> He has genuine learning disabilities and Aspergers, he doesn't mean to be infuriating but he can't help it.
> 
> He can't critically read a caresheet and compare it to others and throw out the rubbish bits like you guys might,
> ...


if thats the case then maybe it would be better for people to advise him via PM rather than on a thread? other than morgan i dont know who the good dart keepers in this section are (no offence to anyone else), if someone could send him a list of the right people to talk to?

or ask a mod nicely to clean the thread up but leaving the above post so people dont get the wrong idea?

just trying to make life easier for all concerned :blush:


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I am going to be rather controversial here, and I know some folks will think less of me for saying this, but I also know that many of you are thinking the same.

Maybe if he really has all of these problems, he should NOT be keeping animals. I happen to have 2 daughters with learning disabilities (1 has a mild global delay, the other has an autistic spectrum disorder) and I wouldn't trust either of them to look after an animal.

He most certainly should not be jumping in and keeping animals that are not as easy, such as amphibians. He would do better with animals like bearded dragons, leopard geckos, Indian stick insects etc where the care is far simpler, and where having difficulty understanding care guides etc will not have such a big impact upon the animals he keeps.

It may not be fashionable, or PC, to say this, but sorry, the animals need to come first.

Ade


----------



## zekee (Sep 14, 2011)

Totaly agree, I dont even think you are out of order in stating that Ade.


----------



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> I am going to be rather controversial here, and I know some folks will think less of me for saying this, but I also know that many of you are thinking the same.
> 
> Maybe if he really has all of these problems, he should NOT be keeping animals. I happen to have 2 daughters with learning disabilities (1 has a mild global delay, the other has an autistic spectrum disorder) and I wouldn't trust either of them to look after an animal.
> 
> ...


I've told Martin a number of times in the past that the pets he wants are a lot more than he can really cope with and that if I were his family member I'd try to discourage it.

You can say all of the above but the fact of the matter is, there is no legal prevention to people with learning difficulties keeping animals (in the first place), people in the shops obviously communicate with him well enough to happily sell him animals and his family have chosen not to be involved or to restrict him.

You can't stop him having animals, better to focus any effort you are willing to put into his questions on helping the animals.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I would do, and have done, except that it has been proven very very thoroughly here that he doesn't hear anything he doesn't want to hear.

I am quite happy to forgive him his attitude in this thread, and have already said sorry for calling him a troll, but I don't know about anybody else, but I am not willing to try to help him any further. He would do far better finding a local keeper in his area perhaps, and speak to them 1 to 1.

Incidentally, we all have apsergers when posting on a forum, NONE of us has access to body language etc which is used to process what is said verbally and judge the correct emotion of what is been said. So the Apsergers part is meaningless. NONE of us can ready the emotions of the person who's message we read correctly anyway.

It's not illegal for him to keep animals (nor am I arguing it should be, his parents have chosen not to intervene, but I have absolutely no intention of encouraging him to continue on this path, nor of trying to help him to. He has NOT sorted out the problem of what do do with his frogs when he goes on holiday for one thing, and has already sold 4 baby White's tree frogs on because of this, yet now he is planning on purchasing a species that isn't even quite as easy as White's are, and will probably do the exact same thing.

As such, going through the hard work of trying to help him is, in my opinion at least, a total complete and utter waist of time.

The only advice I will give him now is to FORGET ABOUT KEEPING AMPHIBIANS.

Ade


----------



## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Isn't it a bit rude to talk like this in front of him? Some of the things you guys have been saying, true or not, would probably be extremely upsetting things to hear other people say about yourself.

And, as someone mentioned, a mod really needs to clean up this thread, it's become a total mess. Martin, if you need advice, feel free to send some PM's-the people on this forum are far more friendly than we may have come across here. : victory:


----------



## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

SourGrapes said:


> Isn't it a bit rude to talk like this in front of him? Some of the things you guys have been saying, true or not, would probably be extremely upsetting things to hear other people say about yourself.
> 
> And, as someone mentioned, a mod really needs to clean up this thread, it's become a total mess. Martin, if you need advice, feel free to send some PM's-the people on this forum are far more friendly than we may have come across here. : victory:


Honestly if you think this thread is a mess venture into some of the other areas and see what gets said.

I cant see that a huge amount of what has been said has been out of order, yes there have been a few parts which people have apologied for but its up to the OP with what he would like done with the thread


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I've been giving this a bit of thought before I comment any further- not that makes anything I say less stupid, but at least it's thought-out stupid! 

Ok, I'm a great believer in the theraputic qualities of keeping animals, but for the animals sake, I would tend to encourage the achievable- Ade made some sensible comments and suggestions as to more managable species. *

Reptileman*, there are all kinds of things I'd like to keep, but some I can't, because I can't afford them, or I can't give them the best conditions or they are just too difficult. With a bit of practise, I'm sure you can keep some of the harder ones eventually, *but you have to start at the begining*- just like I did, and Saedcantas, and Wolfenrock, and all of us! SG, Jazzy and a few others have given you some pointers on your tank, but don't be afraid to keep asking- so long as you listen to the answers!: victory:

*Sourgrapes*, I take your point, but Reptileman himself brought up his issues, and the further explanation Saedcantas gave us helped me, at least, to understand the situation a little better, and judge a little less. If he wants the thread cleaned up or deleted, all he has to do is PM Pollywog, the mod.


----------



## reptileman33 (Sep 29, 2011)

Hiya I will ask a mod to clean up this thread as I do not wish for it to cause any upset with members on here, I have had a chat with John (Out of Stockport pet warehouse) and what he said is he is going to help me redesign this terrarium!!! He also made me aware that there ISNT a artificial floor in the terrarium but he will put one in for me (something involving a crate or a stack or something??? I dunno what he means but he sounds as if he knows what he is taking about so he said he is gettting me the stuff I need and then after ive been on holiday he said he will come round and help me get it all ready!!!! He also agreed with what you lot said about keeping milk frogs as he said they can be a mild delicate to look after so we agreed that im going to stick to having lizards and go for a giant day gecko (as it was either a Tokay Gecko or giant day gecko and he said its best to go with a Day gecko as they are Di-urnal AND arborreal so its the best decision for me!!!) But apart from the negative comments ive had on here I would like to thank those who gave me ideas on how to improve the features in my vivarium!!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

reptileman33 said:


> Hiya I will ask a mod to clean up this thread as I do not wish for it to cause any upset with members on here, I have had a chat with John (Out of Stockport pet warehouse) and what he said is he is going to help me redesign this terrarium!!! He also made me aware that there ISNT a artificial floor in the terrarium but he will put one in for me (something involving a crate or a stack or something??? I dunno what he means but he sounds as if he knows what he is taking about so he said he is gettting me the stuff I need and then after ive been on holiday he said he will come round and help me get it all ready!!!! He also agreed with what you lot said about keeping milk frogs as he said they can be a mild delicate to look after so we agreed that im going to stick to having lizards and go for a giant day gecko (as it was either a Tokay Gecko or giant day gecko and he said its best to go with a Day gecko as they are Di-urnal AND arborreal so its the best decision for me!!!) But apart from the negative comments ive had on here I would like to thank those who gave me ideas on how to improve the features in my vivarium!!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


Now, *that* sounds sensible!:2thumb: Good luck with the viv, and especially the gecko. 'Egg crate' is what they call a kind of rigid plastic grid that lets water drain into the base of the tank from the soil. It's put in on stilts, then you have a layer of material that lets water but not soil through, and your substrate goes on top of that. that way, when you spray, the soil drains through instead of turning into mud.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

reptileman33 said:


> Hiya I will ask a mod to clean up this thread as I do not wish for it to cause any upset with members on here, I have had a chat with John (Out of Stockport pet warehouse) and what he said is he is going to help me redesign this terrarium!!! He also made me aware that there ISNT a artificial floor in the terrarium but he will put one in for me (something involving a crate or a stack or something??? I dunno what he means but he sounds as if he knows what he is taking about so he said he is gettting me the stuff I need and then after ive been on holiday he said he will come round and help me get it all ready!!!! He also agreed with what you lot said about keeping milk frogs as he said they can be a mild delicate to look after so we agreed that im going to stick to having lizards and go for a giant day gecko (as it was either a Tokay Gecko or giant day gecko and he said its best to go with a Day gecko as they are Di-urnal AND arborreal so its the best decision for me!!!) But apart from the negative comments ive had on here I would like to thank those who gave me ideas on how to improve the features in my vivarium!!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


I think you will enjoy a day gecko (phalsuma) a giant maybe a little big but the gold dust day gecko like i mentioned before would be ideal
.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Martin, I will offer one little bit of advice more.

If you REALLY want amphibians still, and are willing to listen to others, and *CAN find somebody to 'frog sit' for you* there ARE 2 options that COULD work for you.

Of these, the best choice for you would be oriental fire bellied toads, and get John to set your viv up with a 50:50 land to water ratio, I am sure if you tell him that you wanted these he would know what to do. They are amongst the hardiest and easiest to keep amphibians, are dirunal, nice looking and DO like to climb, as well as swim. You could happily keep a group of 4-6 toads in your viv, and I am quite sure that you would enjoy them a lot. Humidity is never an issue, as the water part keeps them moist.

The other option would be to try White's tree frogs again. They are nocturnal though, so I really would press you to try the toads.

I understand that you one day want to try to keep something harder, probably because you see them and think how beautiful they are. You know I am a confimed dart frog keeper though, and I happen to have oriental fire bellied toads in my collection, and find they rival some dart frogs in their beauty.

I have offered this advice, as I don't agree with your friend John that day geckos will be easier. My understanding is that as lizards go they are amongst the more difficult.

I know you have faith in this John, however everybody on here will tell you exactly the same as I am about to tell you. People who run shops want your money, rarely do they care if the animals you get from them do well. The members on here, our only interest is in ensuring that the animals do ok.

Let me show you just how simple a nice fire bellied toad (FBT) viv can be by showing you mine (a 45cm cube Exo Terra):-










The land area was created by piling gravel, which was then supported using pieces of bogwood from a local pets at home. I have a microjet filter in there to help keep their water a little fresher. Feeding is easy, they get mini mealworms and number 3 crickets, oh and dwarf woodlice which live in there with them. We dust their food about twice a week with some Repashy Calcium Plus. I have no additional heating in their viv. Here is a pic of 2 of our toads, their bellies some are a nice orange, others a nice deep red:-










They also have lovely calls.

Please do consider these, and I am sure everybody on here will agree with me that these would make an excellent start for you, and that you will find them far more enjoyable than your White's tree frogs that you had. I am sure that many of us will also quite happily take you through how to look after them step by step.

Ade


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

fire bellies are cool, active toads that you and you cant go wrong with them! there are a few species to choose from.
i never found day geckos hard, but everyones different.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I have never actually kept day geckos to be honest, just remembering some of what I read once though whilst considering it. Saying that, I was looking into electric blue day geckos at the time, which I don't believe is even a phelsuma. lol

FBTs are definitely hard to go wrong with though. In my experience it's harder to go wrong with FBTs than with goldfish, they are that hardy. Seems the most common thing that goes wrong with them is them escaping.

Ade


----------



## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> I have never actually kept day geckos to be honest, just remembering some of what I read once though whilst considering it. Saying that, I was looking into electric blue day geckos at the time, which I don't believe is even a phelsuma. lol
> 
> FBTs are definitely hard to go wrong with though. In my experience it's harder to go wrong with FBTs than with goldfish, they are that hardy. Seems the most common thing that goes wrong with them is them escaping.
> 
> Ade


inless you leave the door open i can't work out how they would escape. none of mine ever had


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> I have never actually kept day geckos to be honest, just remembering some of what I read once though whilst considering it. Saying that, I was looking into electric blue day geckos at the time, which I don't believe is even a phelsuma. lol
> 
> FBTs are definitely hard to go wrong with though. In my experience it's harder to go wrong with FBTs than with goldfish, they are that hardy. Seems the most common thing that goes wrong with them is them escaping.
> 
> Ade


electric blues are tiny, and yeah i recon hard to keep. most of the medium day geckos are 5-6" and a good buy, but too fast to handle so if OP wants to handle them that isnt going to work. a crestie maybe better, cant go wrong with a crestie!!! viv would need a little changing again but excellent lizards! know this has changed from frogs to lizards but OP have a good think, check them out at your local reptile shop.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

fardilis said:


> inless you leave the door open i can't work out how they would escape. none of mine ever had


open the door and ...wwwwwooooosh! they gone. lol.


----------



## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

animalstory said:


> open the door and ...wwwwwooooosh! they gone. lol.


mine never do that, the come up to the front tho


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

lol, some are well fast! years ago i had gone to get something from a seller and he said i could have his phelsuma free with what ever it was i was buying. It jumped out the viv and ran up the wall and behind his vivs. i never did get that gecko and it took him about 4 weeks to catch it!


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> I removed Martin from the forum in the past (when I was a mod o'course!)for his own good.
> He has genuine learning disabilities and Aspergers, he doesn't mean to be infuriating but he can't help it.
> 
> He can't critically read a caresheet and compare it to others and throw out the rubbish bits like you guys might,
> ...


Sorry, but he shouldn't be keeping animals. Someone has failed in their duty of care if they keep letting him buy them. I'm not going to condone that.

Out.


----------



## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Phew, just read though all the thread, taken me about 10 mins xD 

I may be shooting myself in the foot here but I think it would be beneficial to point out that im also an Asperger's sufferer and a keeper of amphibians. I have my trio of Whites tree frogs (Shrimp, chubby and Longlegs) my four axolotls (Eren, Itzi, Aztec and Maya) and my Indian Black-spined Toad (Rajah) and I can confidently say i look after them to the best of my ability. 

I have a great respect for a lot of people on here as they have always helped me when i have asked questions about my 'phibs. Rather then let my asperges get the better of me (its only been diagnosed in the last year and a half), i have found its uses. when im interested in something (i.e. 'phibs) I will try to collect every piece of information from as many sources as i can, i spent months researching everything i could about Axolotls and Whites tree frogs as well as asking for advise on certain aspects here, i can only hope that i always came across sincerly and have taken things on board that people have told me (and not pissed anyone off):lol2:

I have wanted 'phibs since i was very young (im 25 in a few days ) so it wasnt a last minute desicion for me, more like a 20 year one. Im sorry if this seems a bit random, i think something needed to be said.


----------

