# Dyskinetic Syndrome ( My findings so far )



## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

This thread is to enable me to write my notes while researching dyskinetic syndrome.

I'm not saying that this has been proven in any way, although chemicals noted within this thread are fact and there is proof that these are where I have said they are.

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Let's start by asking what DKS is?

Basically no-one knows. It seems to be a term used to describe erratic movements and a "drunken" like state within tarantulas.

When looking at humans, dyskinetic syndrome is a form of cerebral palsy which involves a basal ganglion disorder.

Now I'm not saying that every un-common posture / movement within tarantulas is DKS, some will be de-hydration which will most likely be a death curl like posture due to the way tarantulas move their legs and the lack of liquid within these muscles causing them to contract.

My theory ( and that's all it is at the mo ) is that DKS within tarantulas causes a neurotransmitter blockage, thus not allowing the "brain" and the legs to be controlled in the usual way.

If we look at the speculative causes of DKS, this kind of makes sense.

One speculation, is that feeding your tarantula on locusts could be a cause.

If we look at locusts closer we find that they have a mixture of chemicals within their guts, including _*Pantoea agglomerans*_ and _*Streptococci*_ along with a chemical known as _*Guaiacol*_, this is one of the main compounds locusts give of as a pheromone that cause swarming in locusts.

If we then break this down further and look at _*Guaiaco*_, this may cause paralysis of the vasomotor centres which deal with blood pressure and other homeostatic processes such as temperature control, PH regulation of blood, along with blood sugar levels. Diseases resulting in a homeostatic imbalance can include, diabetes, _*dehydration*_, hypoglycemia, hyperglycemia, gout, and any disease caused by a toxin present in the bloodstream.

Looking at this it seems more viable that the speculation of locusts being a cause of DKS is unlikely and more likely to be a cause of dehydration within a tarantula.


If we look at other speculative causes of DKS within tarantulas, we will notice the use of flea treatments as one.

For this I used Advantage Flea Treatment for my research ( and am currently awaiting a reply from Frontline )

In Advantage, the active ingredient is something called _*Imidacloprid*_, this is a Nicotine based insecticide which is a Neurotoxin blamed for causing the mass death ( CCD ) within the honey bee population.

_*Imidacloprid*_ is known to cause fatigue, twitching, cramps and weakness in animals, leading to asphyxia.


Therefore I think it is much more likely that this “DKS” is caused by an outside chemical factor rather than one caused by the consumption of live foods, unless these livefoods have been in contact with an outside chemical.


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Just had a reply from Frontline.

The active ingredient in FrontLine Spot on, is something called Fipronil, which is a broad spectrum insecticide, disrupting the insect central nervous system causing hyperexcitation of contaminated insects' nerves and muscles.

So looking at this, potentially another cause of DKS within tarantulas


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

snowgoose said:


> Just had a reply from Frontline.
> 
> The active ingredient in FrontLine Spot on, is something called Fipronil, which is a broad spectrum insecticide, disrupting the insect central nervous system causing hyperexcitation of contaminated insects' nerves and muscles.
> 
> So looking at this, potentially another cause of DKS within tarantulas


yep, i've seen that listed on various sites....

ok, so here's a sneak into a paper i'm working on at the moment.

DKS, as has been noted several times, is a symptom....NOT the 'disease'....also many other things are given the term DKS which may or may not be.

There have been many possibilities of the cause brought up many times in the past....bacteria, as mentioned by Pete and Jake, being one of them.
Obviously it is something that effects the nervous system to a massive effect, but what?

well, here's a possible culprit......Saccharopolyspora spinosa a globally naturally occuring soil based bacterium that produces both spinosyn A and spinosyn D (both these are pesticidal in their own right)

back in 1982 this bacteria was frst discovered on a Caribbean island (Wiki states it was only found here but i have a paper from Department of Agricultural Entomology, University of Agriculture Pakistan stating otherwise) and subsequently cultured, and since genetically ehanced to produce a compound that is now known as Spinosad, a bacterial pesticide additive that works by activating nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in the arthropod nervous system causing a massive overload and basically, the affected subject seizures to death.

why is this a possibility? well it is used now in various in dog pesticides and in agricultural ones too (especially 'organic' produce), various horticultral nurseries (both decorative and food crop) use pesticides based on Spinosad or Saccharopolyspora spinosa....the base bacterium can be transferred, easily and unknowingly, into what is basically an incubator (the terrarium)

I am not saying this bacterium is present in the gut of all locusts and i'm not saying i isn't, but it is a possibilty that, if fed hay produced from an area dosed with a Spinosad or Saccharopolyspora spinosa based product, that the bacterium can be passed to a locust and ultimately into the spider.
But also, if this is the case, handling a pot plant treated for thrips or some such pest, and then working in the terrarium without washing your hands could also transfer the pathogen.....even slicing a cucumber!

Also, they are working with Saccharopolyspora spinosa in Agricultural research in Pakistan to eradicate infestations of flour beetles.



The research is in its infancy at the moment,and this isn't everything i have, but more will become apparent as soon as i get it done.


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

> it is used now in various in dog pesticides and in agricultural ones too (especially 'organic' produce), various horticultral nurseries (both decorative and food crop) use pesticides based on Spinosad or Saccharopolyspora spinosa.


As far as I know (and seen on a smaller scale) the major locust breeders feed the locusts on cabbage leaves and other 'green leaves' from beet, cauliflowers and other similar plants. These are bought from in bulk (obviously) from the farmers and companies that provide the veg to supermarkets.
If the leaves are not washed thoughly every time (and when literally tons are needed , who knows how well they are cleaned) then there will be a residue left, and possibly the locusts will build an immunity up over the generations.
Unfortuantly, Tarantulas dont have this immunity and the gradual build up of the toxins proves fatal.

Anyway thats my theory and I'm sticking to it. :2thumb:


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## fazzer (Jul 19, 2009)

*Dks ?*

Out of interest what height is the enclosure the spider was housed in ? Depth of substrate ? Was there adiquote ventilation ? Sounds like a build up of carbon dioxide at the bottom of the enclosure due to lack of airflow. Happened to me in the early days of the hobby, exactly the same symptoms .


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Nicotine based systemic insecticide has also been linked with disorientation in bees which is affecting honey production the U.S.A. and Europe. Being systemic it can't be washed off and will be consumed by feeder insects and then by the Tarantulas. There is a film called "Vanishing Of The Bees" which is currently on Netflix UK or the DVD can be bought or rented. The film is also on Youtube but "not available in your country".

But finding a cause is a mammoth task and can only be done by comparing results from multiple sources including factors such as diet and environment.

Personally since there are accounts of DKS in Tarantulas caught in the wild as well as in genetic lines in captivity I would go with an inherited gene in much the same as Wet Tail is an inherited gene in hamsters. In that case the only way to get rid of it is to destroy whole lines of Tarantulas in which DKS is discovered in the same way that whole lines of hamsters are destroyed in which Wet Tail is discovered.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

Spideypidey said:


> Personally since there are accounts of DKS in Tarantulas caught in the wild as well as in genetic lines in captivity I would go with an inherited gene in much the same as Wet Tail is an inherited gene in hamsters. In that case the only way to get rid of it is to destroy whole lines of Tarantulas in which DKS is discovered in the same way that whole lines of hamsters are destroyed in which Wet Tail is discovered.


Interesting, but this implies that DKS is a disease rather than a symptom, and is also only caused by one thing....

I think it's more likely a symptom that can be caused by several different problems... Many different diseases share similar symptoms...

Also, have the tarantulas been observed with dyskinetic symptoms in the wild, or when they have been taken from the wild and placed in captivity?


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Adam B Jones said:


> Interesting, but this implies that DKS is a disease rather than a symptom, and is also only caused by one thing....
> 
> I think it's more likely a symptom that can be caused by several different problems... Many different diseases share similar symptoms...
> 
> Also, have the tarantulas been observed with dyskinetic symptoms in the wild, or when they have been taken from the wild and placed in captivity?


No: If it's the result of a gene then it's a genetic trait or a genetic disorder and not a disease as such. It's that the genetic trait or disorder results in a wider disorder under certain circumstances. Consider for example inherited Diabetes in humans which is passed along the mother's line.

If we look at Wet Tail in hamsters the theory is that it's a gene which all Syrian Hamsters have but lays dormant until it is triggered into activity. It has been recognised that it affects mainly very young hamsters so the trigger is said to be stress: Baby hamsters suffer a lot of stress in being removed from their siblings, transported to a pet shop and then transported to the keeper's home.

As with Wet Tail in Hamsters with DKS in Tarantulas all that has been done is to scratch the surface and recognise that the problem is exists. But there have been no comparative studies so all there is at this time is conjecture as to the cause of it. Basically, some get it but most don't.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

yes, but whatever the semantics, this still implies there is a single cause rather than it being a symptom of several different possible causes.

Although if it were a genetic trait that is triggered by certain factors, that could follow that several different factors separate or together could bring it on...

At the moment though, to me it sounds like more of a description than a condition/disease/illness...

What about the wild tarantulas though, has it been observed happening in the wild, or with wild caught captives?


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Most if not all information on DKS comes from discussion forums. According to the thread I read it already had DKS when it was caught in the wild.

If there were several different causes then there would be several different effects. It's not semantics either, genetic is genetic.

If DKS is anything like Wet Tail in Hamsters then no comparative studies will be done and we will be left with theories and basically I say this and you say that.

But we have to view it all in proportion: I'm getting on in years now, specifically I'm 63 years old, and I've kept hamsters since I was 8 years old and probably one of the first in the U.K. to keep Tarantulas as popular pets: I have never experienced DKS and also I have never experienced Wet Tail. So basically according to my experience the various reports of the incidence of both are greatly exaggerated.

https://www.facebook.com/anthony.thornton.184


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

I've never experienced DKS in my spiders either myself, so it's alien to me too...

What I was getting at is that whether it is called a condition/genetic trait/disease, it still implies that it is one single condition/genetic trait/disease - there are different diseases/conditions that share similar symptoms, so there could be a number of different things causing dyskinetic symptoms, including what you mention here, that are entirely separate from each other, that's all


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

A point of note regarding dehydration: extreme dehydration will cause a tarantula to be unable to extend its legs because leg retraction is muscular, but extension is through hydraulic pressure. But, if a spider for some reason has problems with dehydration and levels of sodium/chloride/potassium/calcium ions, this could potentially cause erratic muscle movement or spasms because of how nerve impulses work. Similarly to how humans can suffer from cramping or minor muscle spasming when partially dehydrated (more severe hypotonic dehydration, where vital ion levels are low, can cause people to have seizures).

Also, there's more than one type of movement commonly called "DKS" in tarantulas. There's the kind of drunken, sloppy looking movement commonly associated with dehydration, and there's the flickering, high speed spasming with the prosoma on the ground and the legs going like a drum. Also, sometimes there's like a kind of weird "high stepping" one with the tarantula hurling itself about. Though the second and third could just be different forms of the same behavior, or even the same one but with different hydration levels as even where dehydration is not the cause, erratic movement may make it harder for a tarantula to access water, leaving it secondarily dehydrated.

*Everything below this point is just something I thought of and do not take it as fact or start repeating it until it becomes more wild supposition represented as "proven" on forums, please.*

As I was looking for summat, I started wondering about another possibility: Plasticizers. There seems to be little useful information about the effects of, for instance, phthalate plasticisers on arthropods. However, in vertebrates they're *theorised to be *endocrine disruptors. As the mechanisms are not understood yet, we can't really say anything that's not wild speculation, but it's worth noting that DDT, an insecticide that worked by disrupting nerve impulses (causing spasming), worked as an endocrine disruptor in vertebrates. 

Having found an article or two though, looks like the effects are not nervous, but there are other plasticizers out there (like some organophosphates) that can cause nerve problems.

Now, ordinarily many of these aren't a problem, barring phthalates which are now being banned, but they do leach from the plastics. The "new car smell" we all know is the smell of plasticizer buildup in a confined space. If heat increases the rate of leaching, and a plastic tub is a semi-enclosed space: is there some possibility that keeping spiders in plastic tubs against heat mats could be exposing them to elevated levels of these compounds for extended periods of time? Most of the known effects seen are reproductive, and so not that noticeable in our pet spiders; even if breeding, it would usually be lower fecundity than failure usually, which could be for numerous reasons and therefore not easily pinned down.

This is just another possibility to consider.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't know why I feel compelled to help you lot out, because it tend to fall on deaf ears but.....

...stop theorising causes. 

If you want to tackle this, then why not gather some data? It's not hard, I'll help. I don't have time to do this myself but I will help with interpretation. I don't have some moderator reciting my accomplishments but I am an insect scientist and experienced enough at designing experiments. 

Volunteers? You need to make up a set of defined aims for the study. This will not be "solve the cause of DKS". Start simple e.g: 

_1. We want to see what species DKS has been reported to afflict and where about in the UK these cases originate from. 

2. We want to establish when the earliest case was reported, the symptoms, and then map cases per year to see if it is increasing or not. _

Then come up with a questionnaire to send to keepers - post it on surveymonkey and see if the BTS will include a link in their journal and forum. Get a bunch of responses - maybe aim for 100 or so. 

Collect data on cases of DKS and also non cases. 

Have some simple aims that the questionnaire will try to address:

1. How many unique cases of DKS have been reported?

2. What species did they affect?

3. Where in the UK did these cases arise?

4. Did any keepers experience more than one instance of DKS?

5. Are cases of DKS more frequently found in certain collection "densities"? E.g. is DKS mostly confined to keepers with large collections or not? Does it never occur in some categories (e.g. keepers with less than 10 species)?

You don't need to make the questions too invasive. Just ask for simple stuff like what the postcode is (to allow mapping) and how many spiders people keep. Ask if they've had DKS, if yes ask for what species and the year or date it was noticed. What were the symptoms, etc. Have they seen DKS more than once? 

Keep it short and simple.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

GRB said:


> I don't know why I feel compelled to help you lot out, because it tend to fall on deaf ears but.....
> 
> ...stop theorising causes.
> 
> ...


This hasn't been done already? Im surprised the amount people go on about it. Id have thought this would be the first steps for someone wanting to know more


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

forever_20one said:


> This hasn't been done already? Im surprised the amount people go on about it. Id have thought this would be the first steps for someone wanting to know more


It's a topic of discussion with anything and everything thrown into the pot and no-one can embark on any sort of study which considers anything and everything. But the discussion is valid since any common denominator is likely to provide a foundation for further study. As it now stands if your Tarantula gets DKS and dies you're just unlucky and you just get another one. But if your second Tarantula also gets DKS and you have cared for it in exactly the same way as the first then you could be on to something.


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