# hybrid geoffroy marmosets



## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

i have a troop of common marmosets . and i also have 2 hybrid geoffroy marmosets brother and sister there dad was a full geoffroy marmoset and there mother was a geoffroy cross common they are really cute will post some pics soon dont know whether 2 breed them with full geffroy marmosets or cross them with common marmosets


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Personally I wouldn't breed from hybrids, as it is best to keep the species pure.


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

throw in a pygmy while your at it :roll:


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## angiepie (Jul 7, 2011)

Cant wait to see pics


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

i do have a pair of pygmy marmosets tho i wont be crossing them


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

davidjohn said:


> i have a troop of common marmosets . and i also have 2 hybrid geoffroy marmosets brother and sister there dad was a full geoffroy marmoset and there mother was a geoffroy cross common they are really cute will post some pics soon dont know whether 2 breed them with full geffroy marmosets or cross them with common marmosets


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*some pics of my common marmosets*


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

davidjohn said:


> i have a troop of common marmosets . and i also have 2 hybrid geoffroy marmosets brother and sister there dad was a full geoffroy marmoset and there mother was a geoffroy cross common they are really cute will post some pics soon dont know whether 2 breed them with full geffroy marmosets or cross them with common marmosets


As stated on the other forum.
These would be best implanted to prevent breading.
Species to species and lets not play at god.


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> As stated on the other forum.
> These would be best implanted to prevent breading.
> Species to species and lets not play at god.[/QUOTE


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

hi angie here are some more pics of my marmosets i also have parrots a yorkie and a chinese crested hairless dog


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*1 of my babies pairent reared*

here is a pic of 1 of my babies 11 weeks old


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Are those Common Marmosets in a Ferplast Brio cage?


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*answer*

it was a temporary cage while they were wating 2 go in to there new cage didint you see the other pics of the green cage it is 14 feet long and 6 foot four high and five feet wide ther old cage had 2 b replaced as they love 2 chew and it was past its best look at the 4 pic i posted do u really think i would keep a 6 marmosets in a tiny little cage they also get out 2 run about outside the cage and out side in the garden during the good weather


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*no point in adding any more replys*

i have kept marmosets now for 10 years and i thought i would post some pics and show my animals all you get on here is nit picking so this will be my last post and i wont be coming back to this forum glad you liked my pics i will leave and enjoy my animals and just remove my self from here thanks and bye :bash:


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

davidjohn said:


> i have kept marmosets now for 10 years and i thought i would post some pics and show my animals all you get on here is nit picking so this will be my last post and i wont be coming back to this forum glad you liked my pics i will leave and enjoy my animals and just remove my self from here thanks and bye :bash:


that's a shame, was looking forward to seeing all the cross bred specimens. a marmochilla could have been on the to do list in the near future :crazy:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

If this is 10yrs experiance then i think he should have kept on the forum.
Maybe he would have learned something.

18mnth male pygmy with a 7mnth female.
She will be stressed out her head.

Why have pictures handling the babies..
If they need handled fine(if they discard)
Why do it when they are fine with mum and dad and all else.

We never handle unless needed and all our species are steady and still able to interact with.
I just think monkeys should remain monkeys...

Also willing to continue to breed hybrids..
Because he sees nothing wrong.

Sometimes its closed minds of people who are set in there ways-the wrong ways that gives other keepers a bad name.

There are probably more like this than not..

And this is the main reason that private keepers want to remain that way..

I actually thought it was a wind up to start with...

But not so its the usual bad ethics passed on yet again.

But when we see the term 10yrs experiance it makes you look.

Have a look at marmoset diets website and you will see what im talking about and thats supposedly 25yrs experiance.

Breeding hybrids and will sell you a single with a big cage and a book on how to look after....

Lovelly for a while and then they start to bite.
And guess they arent scared of there owners as they think they are part of the troop....

Its a scary place out there and we all need to be carefull who we seek advice from..

But we have our ways and they have theres.
And im not here to argue whos correct.

Im happy and successfull with what i do.

But when i get a bit time ill take a coledge coarse and learn to spell..:lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Well said Peter! :2thumb:


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*here is a pic just for u hate to disapoint u that's a shame, was looking forward to*










s6t6nic6l said:


> that's a shame, was looking forward to seeing all the cross bred specimens. a marmochilla could have been on the to do list in the near future :crazy:


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> If this is 10yrs experiance then i think he should have kept on the forum.
> Maybe he would have learned something.
> 
> 18mnth male pygmy with a 7mnth female.
> ...


 re the pygmy marmosets they have not been paired up yet they will be a pair up later though. I like how you said you are just here to give advice. So it is up to the individual what they do. You are here to give advice not judge this is not a court room you can advise but let others make up there own minds what they do


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## nightless (Jul 27, 2011)

*Lil monkey*



davidjohn said:


> imageimage


That is cute :no1:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

davidjohn said:


> re the pygmy marmosets they have not been paired up yet they will be a pair up later though. I like how you said you are just here to give advice. So it is up to the individual what they do. You are here to give advice not judge this is not a court room you can advise but let others make up there own minds what they do


It should be a court room.
Yes all primates are cute.
Hybrids...?????
Why not let them see out there life implanted rather than keeping what we all know isnt correct.
But if your friends want them then why not..(ludicris)
Ok so the pygmys are not paired...Where are they then.
You said you had a pair....
You are playing at being god and ethically it stinks..
Just because you have 10yrs experiance it goes for nothing.
Met a very successfull couple from edinburgh the other week.
Have a very good pair of commons which they house in there livingroom.
Have all thats needed uv light etc.
Mum and dad and all sibblings are looking good.
They learned from a breeder who done the same.
Didnt know any better...
You will pass on your ethics when the hybrids are moved on.
Or will it be the old sinario of giving your friends one as a pet.
Im not under any way telling you what to do.
You had already made up your mind before posting on both forums.
Why did you bother.
Did you really expect to find someone here that would agree with what you are doing.
Not all keep primates but they never discuss the possability of crossing rats with rabbits or anythiing as ridiculas as you are going to be doing.
As i said with regard to the pygmys you stated you had a pair and gave there ages....
As ive stated before there are different kinds of keepers.
Some stick to there own circles because they want to remain private,
some stick to there own circles because they would not be excepted into any other because of what they do ethically...
Anyway you enjoy what you do as its your choice.
But with regard to primates i will give my opinion whether you like it or not..
After all i did not contact you.
You came on and asked for ideas of what to pair
and i must admire rfuk members who dont even keep primates for having a good opinion to ethics.


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*it happens in the wild they do exist can send link check it out your self they did no*










PETERAROBERTSON said:


> It should be a court room.
> Yes all primates are cute.
> Hybrids...?????
> Why not let them see out there life implanted rather than keeping what we all know isnt correct.
> ...


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

The obvious isnt going to change any opinions.
Already mentioned weills marmoset which is a hybrid.
Reading what ive already looked at doesnt change a thing.
Would you put a peigree dog with a mongrell??
Species are species and should remain that way.
You are not in the wild mate you are playing at frankenstien in your own back garden.
Well you and your select few...
Hybrids should not be bread with whatever the reasons may be.
Purity in the species is esential to keep them going.
Especially when captive bread.
Why if its ok are there not any as exibits in the zoos.
And why is it not allowed to be any other way...
Glad to see your fighting your corner but kinda sad that you cant answer simple questions.
Back to the pygmys.
Dont think i want an answer as maybe there housed with a gorrila so as to get a bit bigger.....
Theres that many studies etc that all points could be pointed in that direction.
They will never be here as they cant be imported.
BUT FOLK LIKE YOU WILL CREATE YOUR OWN....


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> The obvious isnt going to change any opinions.
> Already mentioned weills marmoset which is a hybrid.
> Reading what ive already looked at doesnt change a thing.
> Would you put a peigree dog with a mongrell??
> ...


 I dont know your the marmoset expert they do exist in the wild it has been documented why dont you get in touch with the zoo and ask them they are out ther in brazil tyhey did the hybred crossing them selfs oh wait god must have helped them not me thanks


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Species should be kept pure. If (heaven forbid) there was a catastrophy & Geoffroys Marmosets became extinct in the wild, the captive populations would be called upon to try to save the species. This could only be done with 100% pure Geoffroys. Keepers who actively encourage hybridisation are certainly not doing so for the best interests of the animals they keep.

Colchester Zoo were pleased as punch when their Sunatran Tigers bred & the female had cubs. That was until they discovered that their female Tiger wasn't pure Sumatran, but had some Siberian DNA. This meant that the cubs could never be bred from, & therefore cannot contribute to the conservation of the Sumatran Tiger.

There are many hybrid Macaws popping up, especially in the US, & these are given silly names (like the silly designer cross-breed dogs that are being churned out) & new colours are being produced. Even rare species such as the Hyacinth Macaw are hybridised! Madness!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

davidjohn said:


> I dont know your the marmoset expert they do exist in the wild it has been documented why dont you get in touch with the zoo and ask them they are out ther in brazil tyhey did the hybred crossing them selfs oh wait god must have helped them not me thanks


One of us is acting really stupid here.
Wells marmosett was mentioned several times.
A wild hybrid.
they are quite unique as they are a named hybrid.
But there are several not named just classed as hybrid.
Sub species.
I do read a lot about what i keep and have a good few coleegues that have kept for a hell of alot of years.
Ive mentioned befoer one is 79yrs ald and paid ten shillings for his first marmies.
There isnt much he doesnt know.
Done several talks on small primates.
I still say what you are contimplating is wrong.
Ethically purity should be more important over hybrid.
atahey could end up overtaking the pure breed


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## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Thought you may be interested in this

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/documents/primate-cop.pdf

It is part of the new Animal Welfare Act in regards to primates

Page 19 about breeding states

6. Breeding​

• 
Breeding should only be undertaken if:
– adequate steps have been taken to protect the
genetic health of the offspring (e.g. to prevent
inbreeding and possible subsequent welfare
problems), preferably as part of a recognised​and co-ordinated breeding programme.

Therefore crossbreeding / hybridisation would be a violation against this act and therefore you could be open to prosecution.

Best Wishes

Neil
​


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

it does not mention hybridisation or cross- breeding it says e.g. to prevent
inbreeding and possible subsequent welfare
problems and it also states 
preferably as part of a recognised​and co-ordinated breeding programme. note preferably 
will be sending an email tonight to defra and will print the answer that i get back


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

Cross breeding is not "protecting genetic health" in my opinion. (but then what do I know I am only a molecular biologist - yes that means I studied genetics in detail).

At the end of the day you will do what you want to do but Peter is well respected around here, from the pictures you can see the health and quality of his animals. It would do you well to listen to him. You may sell hybrids to someone as a hybrid. They may put its offspring for sale and not mention the hybrid parents. Hence hybrids infect the pure line down the generations. Not worth it mate. It isn't only your own collection you will have a responsibility for but any genetic health/purity in the offspring that come out of it.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

It seems very strange that people make a big fuss about these monkeys,and yet when you cross asian leopard cat to a domestic ,it is embraced and called a bengal,likewise with serval/domestic,i do beleive they frequently do it with snakes and just call it a new name,so in some animals it is accepted with open arms,yet others frowned upon.

Very complicated creatures us humans.


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*agreed*



animalsbeebee said:


> It seems very strange that people make a big fuss about these monkeys,and yet when you cross asian leopard cat to a domestic ,it is embraced and called a bengal,likewise with serval/domestic,i do beleive they frequently do it with snakes and just call it a new name,so in some animals it is accepted with open arms,yet others frowned upon.
> 
> Very complicated creatures us humans.


 i totaly agree with u there


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

davidjohn said:


> i totaly agree with u there


David its down to choice.
If i were you i would do as i please.
As you have stated you are going too.
Why look for a way to justify your methods,its your choice and yes the defra
is a guide line.
Would you concider putting red bellied to cotton top.
Or any other species.
I dont know the answer to animalsbeebee with regard to it being acceptable with other animals.
Most of these are becoming more and more endangered and maybe that has something to do with it.
But i can say that there are very few species of hybrid that have been given a species name.
Weills is the only one off the top of my head.
People have given there veiws and it makes no sence to try for whatveer reason to make a crusade of mind changing.
Animalsbeebee knows his animals and species and the cats are a good point but we need to try and keep pure species going so as they are always there.
Even with the cat thing would any private keeper consider crossing to make strains of there own.
Maybe it would gain recognition and be excepted maybe it would get shot down in flames.
Cotton eared are so called due to there white tufts.
Why breed the same animal with grey tufts.
Or a Geoffroy with a grey mask instead of the white.
If the hybrids in the wild go on to become well established troops then maybe they will be named.
But again they are your animals to do with as you please.
But i can tell you the zoos would need to adhere to defras guidelines and they would not be allowed to breed hybrids.
Would like to sat i look forward to seeing pictures of your future babies but ive seen plenty and dont think they are anything but a hybrid and i would still have any handed into us implanted to prevent breeding.
But like you i have a choice.
Just enjoy your animals and do your own thing..
They are yours to do as you please.


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> David its down to choice.
> If i were you i would do as i please.
> As you have stated you are going too.
> Why look for a way to justify your methods,its your choice and yes the defra
> ...


 thanks david


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

If David goes ahead with the irresponsible breeding of hybrids, then he should not allow any of these animals dilute the gene pool of the pure Geoffroys & Commons. This would mean not selling any, but rather keeping the offspring forever, including sorting out more housing if one is kicked out of the troop, etc. IMO, the responsible thing to do is have the marmosets implanted to stop breeding.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> If David goes ahead with the irresponsible breeding of hybrids, then he should not allow any of these animals dilute the gene pool of the pure Geoffroys & Commons. This would mean not selling any, but rather keeping the offspring forever, including sorting out more housing if one is kicked out of the troop, etc. IMO, the responsible thing to do is have the marmosets implanted to stop breeding.


You are talking sense colin.
But only he can chose.
We all have that.
Theres no law.
Untill there is it is individuals choice.
Sometimes just banging head against wall.
As long as we are satisfied with what we do.


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## davidjohn (Jul 23, 2011)

*thanks peter*

yes of course i will do what i am going to do and if it dose not please some people that is up to them .they can say what they think and i will do as i please again thanks peter as i no lots of breeders and i know a few who breed hybrid marmosets where do u think i got mine from and he has no problems finding buyers for them and 2 of his friends both breed commons geffroys and hybrid marmosets thanks for all your helpfull advice xxxxx


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Can I ask why you want hybrids?

It's not a loaded question - I'm genuinely interested. As I work more with the zoo primate world than the private keeper primate world, it is always interesting to discuss others points of view.

In the zoo world there is a massive priority on maintaining the genetic integrity of animals whilst at the same time striving to maintain genetic diversity.

There doesn't seem to be the same feelings amongst the private keepers which, I believe, is one of the main reasons that most zoos 'look down' on private keepers and certainly very rarely to the two 'deal' with each other (though I know Peter has a lot of dealings with them).

Personally I believe that there is a huge wealth of information and expertise in the private sector that could be put to good use in zoos and of course a great deal of good genetics in private animals as well. However, with private keepers happily diluting captive stock and making them 'worthless' to zoos that is unlikely to happen any time soon.



So, in terms of your animals, what made you want a hybrid, and what 'advantage' do they have over pure bred animals? Are they prettier in your eyes? Is it due to the relatively inbred nature of the parent stock so out of a lack of two unrelated parents of the same species, the breeder has just put two different species together?

I guess I'm asking what makes the hybrid worth doing in your opinion?


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

It saddens me that people would deliberatly create hybrids of any species. I don't understand why anyone would want an F1 bengal, or a serval cross. They're genetic crap to be frank. But crossing different species of monkeys is just plain weird! 

What a complete waste.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

bothrops said:


> Can I ask why you want hybrids?
> 
> It's not a loaded question - I'm genuinely interested. As I work more with the zoo primate world than the private keeper primate world, it is always interesting to discuss others points of view.
> 
> ...


Hi there Andy,
would just like to point out that not all private breaders are the same.
All the circle of people who we have contact with would not consider diluting any species.

We all work together doing what we do and tend to deal with each other.
The zoo parks tend to be the same as the bigger zoos if they dont know you they wouldnt want to talk.

We are again in the process of another geoldi donation to a further zoo,
As they have a male on his own due to a death.

Money never seems to be the point of this as they may have something we are needing or even may in the future.

There are ocasions that its favours for favours.
Others tend to look upon any as a money value.

Had a guy phoned once about hand rearing.
He was unsuccessful and said that it was £1200 down the drain.

I do totally agree with not diluting true species.
But there are a hell of alot out there that do.
Its there choice to do and untill someone actually makes it a law not to we can shout from the rooftops on to deaf ears.

It will end up that there will be more hybrids than pure as they get sold on etc etc.
Even although they are completely worthless to a true keeper of species.

So i guess we need to just make sure that there are others like us who will keep doing what they do for the good of the true species.

But we need to let all make up there own mind.
Whether ethically correct or not....


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Absolutely agree Peter. I know a lot of private/zoo coalitions but there are too few IMO.

I case you hit the nail on the head - money is (as ever) the main issue.

Many private dealers wouldn't give their animals away, no zoo with any integrity would sell their animals......and no zoo would give their animals away if they thought they might be sold on. As private breeders often see breeding as a way to recoup some of the cash spent on buying the initial animals, housing and keeping them (and many others see it as a way to make a little too) then I really can't see a solution.

The only cases that zoo/private relationships can work is in special cases like yourself that have enough of a collection, plenty of experience and expertise and a reputation of integrity to mean that its not about the money, 'exchange' is the key and at the end of the day, its ALL about the animals.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

I case you hit the nail on the head - money is (as ever) the main issue.


Zoos are only there to make money ,they are a business ,otherwise why charge entrance fees at high prices ,and not do entrance fees FOC

Many private dealers wouldn't give their animals away, no zoo with any integrity would sell their animals......and no zoo would give their animals away if they thought they might be sold on. As private breeders often see breeding as a way to recoup some of the cash spent on buying the initial animals, housing and keeping them (and many others see it as a way to make a little too) then I really can't see a solution

Thats right zoos wont give animals away they just euthanaise them instead ,wheres the moral in that ,it seems that zoos can do what they want and get away with it


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> I case you hit the nail on the head - money is (as ever) the main issue.
> 
> 
> Zoos are only there to make money ,they are a business ,otherwise why charge entrance fees at high prices ,and not do entrance fees FOC
> ...


 
Have you worked in many zoos? How much do you know about how zoos work in this country and the laws and legislations that they are subject to? Have a read through this document.

Standards of Modern Zoo Practice « Defra

Particularly relevant here is this bit http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/zoos/documents/zoo-standards/app4.pdf




Those standards are the 'minimum' requirements that an establishment needs to meet in order to gain its Zoo License (which can also be removed very quickly if it is deemed that these standards are not being met)...to be a member of BIAZA and EAZA, it is a requirement that you strive to EXCEED these standards.

The 'Secretary of States Standards of Modern Zoo Practise' are then enforced IN LAW so if zoo's fail to meet those standards, they can be prosecuted...

(full document here - http://www.biaza.org.uk/resources/library/images/ZLA%20CIrcular.pdf)



..I think you'll find that they most certainly CAN NOT do 'what they want and get away with it' ....well not in this country anyway!


I didn't for a second suggest that zoo's are not commercial enterprises. I am also not so niave as to think that some zoos do not buy and sell animals - particularly those in places that have little or no code of conduct regarding animal collections such as we have in the UK. 

I know for example, there are marine mammal parks in the US that pretty much commercially bred orcas and dolphins for zoos/resorts and 'dophinariums' around the world, there are a number of 'big cat' farms in South Africa churning out lions and tigers (particularly 'white tigers' and 'white lions') and those too are sold around the world to zoos, circuses and tourist attractions.


The difference is that UK zoos (or at the very least all the major ones (and definitely all that are members of BIAZA and'or EAZA)) will not EVER sell their surplus endangered/threatened animals (a few may sell the odd rabbit or guinea pig). Nor does any of these establishments euthaniase as a population control management technique unless all other options have been deemed unsuitable. They also most certainly would not breed two different species together intentionally for any reason what so ever.

Animals will either be implanted or segregated to stop breeding. If the animals social structure/physiology/well-being demands that either of these methods are deemed impossible the animal will be put up as surplus on the zoo exchange programme (and/or brought to the attention of the Stud book keeper if applicable). Sometimes a population is managed to extinction (meaning all animals are stopped from breeding and are looked after until the day they die (of natural causes)). Sometimes, bachalour groups are set up, or all female groups. If the welfare of the animal would be compromised by any of the above techniques then sometimes the only option would be to euthanise.

The reason they are not 'given away to private collectors' is plain and clear in this thread. Due to the fact that the animals would then be outside the rigerous protection of the Zoo Licensing Act, the SSSMZP and other such legislation, there is no way to gaurantee that animals future. The animal would of course be under the protection of the Animal Welfare Act, but this is much harder to enforce (behind closed doors and all that) and it also has no protection over being sold on again and again, being bred to anything or generally ending up in the 'wrong' hands.


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