# important! warwick attacks Hamm!



## Scott W

looks like clifford warwick is back on the attack against reptile keeping...please read this

Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred :: View topic - Please read! Clifford Warick strikes again


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## SaichyBoy

I don't understand... They may not be happy but for a maximum of about 48 hours is all they are kept in those tiny tubs for... Does he expect each trader to take 120 vivs with them... and when they get bought they are put into lovely spacious homes... This is the first time I've heard of Clifford Warwick but he sounds like an idiot...


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## Diablo

Clifford Warwick DipShitSci EurCockBiol CrapBiol FRetardedSH FRNumptyIPH FIdiotBiol 
Consultant Biocraplogist and Medical Scientistregect.

That is his name.


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## lukendaniel

Diablo said:


> Clifford Warwick DipShitSci EurCockBiol CrapBiol FRetardedSH FRNumptyIPH FIdiotBiol
> Consultant Biocraplogist and Medical Scientistregect.
> 
> That is his name.


 
lmao liking it!!!!!!

daniel


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## ratboy

Diablo said:


> Clifford Warwick DipShitSci EurCockBiol CrapBiol FRetardedSH FRNumptyIPH FIdiotBiol
> Consultant Biocraplogist and Medical Scientistregect.
> 
> That is his name.


Have you met him ?


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## Diablo

ratboy said:


> Have you met him ?


Eh ? why would i need to his name says it all. Plus he's an anti.


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## Young_Gun

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/110942-investigation-europe-s-largest-reptile.html


:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## Huk7

My god, is that idiot still about??? 

He is a real thorn in every reptile keeper's side, someone that we need to be very careful of and yes, I have met him many, many years ago.


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## ratboy

Diablo said:


> Eh ? why would i need to his name says it all. Plus he's an anti.


No reason. Just wondered.


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## gtm

'DipMedSci EurProBiol CBiol FRSH FRIPH FIBiol'

These are Cliff's qualifications - they leave alot to be desired. He has no undergraduate degree, no masters degree and no PHD. He says he has a Diploma - you can get them in a very short time and they can require a very limited amount of knowledge to obtain. The rest of the 'letters' would appear to mean he is a member of various societies, institutions - chances are he fills a form in and sends it back with a postal order and hey presto he's a member for the next yr. 

He's a useful stooge:mf_dribble: & nothing more.


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## Guest

any one got a photo of this guy ?


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## Guest

Google Image Result for http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/animals/lizard.jpg


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## Chris Newman

I posted this story earlier today under another thread, however, here are some details concerning Mr Warwick:

1. He used to be a reptile trader and sold reptiles from his bedroom. Perhaps this is why he feels so anti-trade now. However to the best of my knowledge he has never admitted publicly to being an ex-trader.

2. You will notice the long stream of letters after his name. Do not be fooled by this. Most of these "awards" are from a science charity for which I believe he did not have to pass a written examination. We spoke to the charity in 2001 and they confirmed that the awards are only valid as long as he pays his subscription to the charity. Yet this man in 2001 boasted about having the "highest possible qualifications". 

3. It was claimed at one time Clifford Warwick had a degree from Copenhagen University, however, when we contacted them they had never heard of him

4. The Animal Protection Agency he mentions is simple another animal rights body set up by a woman he and his AR friends have worked with over the years. Her name is Elaine Toland and she used to work for Animal Aid who have the same AR agenda. I do not know how many people are genuinely members of the Animal Protection Agency but it seems to me like an attempt just to pretend there is another organisation. Animal rightists are very good at this.

5. Please also notice that Warwick provides no evidence of his claims and makes sweeping and emotional statements. Contrary to what he says about animal fairs and exotic pets, he shows everything that is rotten in the animal rights movement!


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## stuartdouglas

Diploma of Medical Science, EurProBiol is an award from the European association of biologists, CBiol is a chartered biologist (?) Fellow of the Royal Society of Health, Fellow of the Royal institute of Public Health and Fellow of the Institute of Biologists. In short, a whole lot of bugger all! Not one proper qualification but the feeble minded sheep that make up the majority of the red top readers will think this bloke is an expert and believe every word of claptrap he comes out with


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## peaches

Here's animal aids page about him

Animal Aid: MINI-BIOGRAPHY Clifford Warwick CBiol FIBiol MIBI

no pic though, sure there was one somewhere!!


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## Guest

So he's a failed trader then :whistling2:

bit like an EX smoker eh


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## ratboy

SteveL said:


> So he's a failed trader then :whistling2:
> 
> bit like an EX smoker eh



I think the non-libelous term is EX trader


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## Guest

ratboy said:


> I think the non-libelous term is EX trader


i dont give a rats ass about libelous mate ..


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## SiUK

A REPLY TO CLIFFORD WARWICK

He obviously doesnt have a clue what he is talking about, you would think someone prepared to stand up and speak out publically would of at least done some research to stop himself looking like a complete idiot.

Just a quick skim through that link, shows some major flaws in his knowledge he claimed that lizards in captivity live only 2 1/2 years and snakes 3 1/2, that is so bad its almost funny, it seems like he has decided it is morally wrong with no research or knowledge on the subject, and plucked random numbers out of the air, not only does that come across as stupid it also makes me wonder if hes a few sandwhiches short of a picnic:crazy:.

Im actually a little worried about the poor mans mental state.


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## ratboy

SteveL said:


> i dont give a rats ass about libelous mate ..


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## stuartdouglas

One thing he's clever with tho'........... the assertion that everyone opposed to his views will automatically give a false and misleading representation of the facts, thereby setting him up as the ultimate truth in things and because he has "letters" after his name then he must be right. W4nk3R


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## ratboy

Unfortunately, as Nerys posted in the other thread, some of what he says is true. I do not have any animal qualifications either but I have said before how bad it is seeing animals in cricket tubs for the day with no hides and no water.

Shows need to evolve and standards need to improve... or reports like this will destroy them.


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## Fangio

CAPS are a joke IMO and this guy is laughable to say the least. I would welcome him to PROVE said qualifications to the world. And provide proper reasoning/evidence and indeed FACTS behind some of his wild claims over the years.


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## boomslang40

and I quote

''Within only seconds of viewing the tape of the Hamm 2008 Pet Fair, captivity-stress-related behaviours in reptiles are plain to see. ''

now my royals fed within 2 days of coming back and are stomachs with mouths since! not a stereotypical sign of a stressed ball python!

my tort and cham are also happy as larry, nice bright colours within a few minutes of being in the viv hunting crickets and very active! again, nto a standard sign of stressed chameleons!


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## Faith

We brought loads of leos back with us and every single one of them are pooing and feeding.

I have to agree that i was a little shocked at the way some of the reps are displayed and dont agree with them not having any access to water during the show.
But for all i know they could have had access to water all morning before the doors opened to the public.
I also have to agree that some of the vendors tubs are stupidly small for the animals they house. 
Even the larger breeders not just the smaller ones.


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## boomslang40

yeah some things did look small I will agree,

but reptiles are natural born survivors, evolved to withstnad variable conditions over millenia that being cold blooded allow them to survive.

In the wild, water isnt always available, and although we naturally offer pets water all the time for their wellbeing, a day without water on a one off occasion isnt likely to do any damage.

(im not saying its ok to treat them badly) just that conditions from a human point of view could look worse than it actually is:whistling2:

:up:

X


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## ratboy

Faith said:


> I have to agree that i was a little shocked at the way some of the reps are displayed and dont agree with them not having any access to water during the show.
> But for all i know they could have had access to water all morning before the doors opened to the public.
> I also have to agree that some of the vendors tubs are stupidly small for the animals they house.
> Even the larger breeders not just the smaller ones.


This is the problem... if parts of reports like this can easily be seen to be true, readers will have no problem with assuming that the rest of it is true too.


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## Faith

Oh i compleatly agree 
Humans are lead by emotion and we feel sorry for something if it doesnt fit in with our way of living.

But as i said for all i know they could have been very well hydrated before the show. 
Which in the wild they would go with out water for a while at least. 

Asumptions get us in trouble ratboy but i can understand how someone who dont know one end of a snake to the other can take reports like this as honesty.


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## Fangio

Reptiles are well designed to survive periods without food/water. A day minus water will do them no harm. I see how it could be percieved as being "cruel" to someone with no knowledge of reptiles but it's not IMO. AT the end of the day they'll be back where they come from anyhow so won't be a full day:roll:

I don't like them being displayed in cricket tubs though.


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## boomslang40

i agre with pretty much everything above:lol2:

I think non-reptile keepers percecptions on reptiles are so drastically different from people who know their behaviour and boudaries etc, even with the small tub issue which for some species isnt too good, but i mean, I could put on of my royals in a 12 foot viv and he'd move just as much as if he were in an ice cream tub :lol2:

X


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## Guest

Right this warwick guy need to be discreditted for his duff initials after his name if there not real ! 

but i agree that the tubs at trade shows are woefully small from pictures .there should be a standard introduced , and soon to stop the shows being stopped 

when i go to any fairs i will have a good look and see if i can design larger custom tubs for anything i ever sell at shows


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## boa10

He used to deal in reptiles back in the 70s from his house. I supose he didn't make any money, not surprising at the way he kept his stock, so then moved onto being an anti.RegardsBoa10


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## SiUK

boa10 said:


> He used to deal in reptiles back in the 70s from his house. I supose he didn't make any money, not surprising at the way he kept his stock, so then moved onto being an anti.RegardsBoa10


Maybe he is stuck in a 70's time warp and doesnt realise that times have changed and moved on.


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## boomslang40

SiUK said:


> Maybe he is stuck in a 70's time warp and doesnt realise that times have changed and moved on.


 
times certainly have! I've got a small book from the 60s/70s that is unbeleivebale, it's called ''Pets for Children'' and has a pciture on the front page of a small blond sketch of a boy holdign a guinea pig...looks fine

the book starts on monkeys and primates, and how to keep them, then goes on to large parrtos like macaws, when you get into the reptile sections it advises how american alligators make great family pets but should be given to zoos when they reach 4 foot.

and what did it for me, was how chameleons make great pets for the conservatory or greenhouse but sadly have a life expectancy of 3-4 months:whip:


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## SiUK

that is shocking


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## stuartdouglas

Warwick's "credentials" aren't completely bogus, they come from genuine organisations, but they aren't qualifications. They are memberships and/or fellowships of institutes gained either by subscribing or by having work published in that particular field. Not one of those comes from any educational facility, nor is it a recognition of having reached a recognised standard in a field of science. You have to ask the question of whether the letters after his name are to him what red sports cars are to some people............


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## boomslang40

well its where the attributes are coming from too, probably not sources knowledgeable on reptiles.

Its the equivalent of an investigator on the best ways of meat production sponsored by PETA:lol2:


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## Guest

on local news there was just a report of a snake giving a baby salmonella 
they gave the snake away,so thats more shit publicity !!


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## boomslang40

SteveL said:


> on local news there was just a report of a snake giving a baby salmonella
> they gave the snake away,so thats more shit publicity !!


 
it was probably the parents not cooking properly:whistling2:

lol

x


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## SiUK

basic health and safety is going to stop salmanella, eggs could give people salmanella but theres not calls to ban them.

I have changed my name to SIUK ikia mbr with these letters after my name I now know everything there is to know about every subject known to man, so dont question my unquestionable greatness. :lol2:


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## boomslang40

SiUK said:


> basic health and safety is going to stop salmanella, eggs could give people salmanella but theres not calls to ban them.
> 
> I have changed my name to SIUK ikia mbr with these letters after my name I now know everything there is to know about every subject known to man.


 
oooh this guys sounds knowledgable!

he should be our spokesmean against :censor:

:lol2::no1:

X


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## TtotheC

He kind of reminds me of one of those scientists who turn their back on science and take up the mantel of creative design. :bash:


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## ratboy

SteveL said:


> Right this warwick guy need to be discreditted for his duff initials after his name if there not real !


They are real, they are just not exams.

What you need to do is join the same fellowships as he has so that you can use the same initials. If you also happen to have a degree ... then all the better as you don't have to state what it is in.

I can legally add HND and BSc Hons to my name if I want .... I don't have to say they are Computer Science qualifications


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## Rainwater

Wouldn't you just love to meet this guy?! I love the way the article said ''mostly wild caught''..you can't tell that from a video and you wouldn't be able to make a pretty good judgement walking round in the main hall at Hamm.

Let's all write the alphabet after our names and let him know what we think!


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## m4rky

Just posted this....
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/gene...n-europe-s-largest-reptile-2.html#post1559435

:lol2:


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## Ally

ratboy said:


> Have you met him ?


I'll read the rest of the thread in a second...
I have met him... He used to have a stall outside Texco every Friday in High Wycombe...


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## Ally

sorry, double post


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## kaimarion

Diablo said:


> Clifford Warwick DipShitSci EurCockBiol CrapBiol FRetardedSH FRNumptyIPH FIdiotBiol
> Consultant Biocraplogist and Medical Scientistregect.
> 
> That is his name.


:lol2:*Legend*:no1:​



This guy sounds like a right [email protected] , and from what I seen at Hamm there was a big % of morphs (mostly leo) which to my knowledge cannot be found in the wild!!!​


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## m4rky

Ok, here we go....(Google is your friend) 

Clifford Warwick - well, that's his name....

Consultant Biologist - People ask him about living things....

PGDipPHC(Med) - Postgraduate Diploma in Primary Health Care (Medical)(but where's the first degree?). Lots of international sites here, seems to be quite popular in New Zealand. 
PGDipPHC(Med) - Google Search


CBiol - Chartered Biologist
FIBiol - Fellow of the Institute of Biology
Now these two are regulated by the IOB and you do have to show that you have earned this, it isn't perhaps just a case of paying for the letters.
Institute of Biology - Grades of Membership


EurProBiol - As far as I can see, an European version of being a member of the IoB
EurProBiol

FRSH - Fellow of the Royal Society for the Promotion of Health
Join the RSPH

FRIPH - Fellow of the Royal Institute of Public Health
Royal Institute of Public Health

There we go, make of them what you will.......:whistling2: 

To be honest, I think a fair few forum users could possibly join most of these.....

M4rky BSc(Hons) MSc (Lapsed GIBiol ) :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Rainwater

m4rky said:


> Ok, here we go....(Google is your friend)
> 
> Clifford Warwick - well, that's his name....
> 
> Consultant Biologist - People ask him about living things....
> 
> PGDipPHC(Med) - Postgraduate Diploma in Primary Health Care (Medical)(but where's the first degree?). Lots of international sites here, seems to be quite popular in New Zealand.
> PGDipPHC(Med) - Google Search
> 
> 
> CBiol - Chartered Biologist
> FIBiol - Fellow of the Institute of Biology
> Now these two are regulated by the IOB and you do have to show that you have earned this, it isn't perhaps just a case of paying for the letters.
> Institute of Biology - Grades of Membership
> 
> 
> EurProBiol - As far as I can see, an European version of being a member of the IoB
> EurProBiol
> 
> FRSH - Fellow of the Royal Society for the Promotion of Health
> Join the RSPH
> 
> FRIPH - Fellow of the Royal Institute of Public Health
> Royal Institute of Public Health
> 
> There we go, make of them what you will.......:whistling2:
> 
> To be honest, I think a fair few forum users could possibly join most of these.....
> 
> M4rky BSc(Hons) MSc (Lapsed GIBiol ) :Na_Na_Na_Na:


lol nice one M4rky...good research!! Makes a little bit more sense now lol!


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## kaimarion

Hey I can make myself look important to:
Curtis Finnigan XBL OG/OC RFUK WS RES BD.O

Wonder if I should put that on my CV :crazy:.








Well at least I found it funny in my own head...yes I have a crap sense of humour :whip:.


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## Dexter

ratboy said:


> Unfortunately, as Nerys posted in the other thread, some of what he says is true. I do not have any animal qualifications either but I have said before how bad it is seeing animals in cricket tubs for the day with no hides and no water.
> 
> Shows need to evolve and standards need to improve... or reports like this will destroy them.


Spot on Steve. I'll be honest with you, I was at Hamm a couple of weeks ago for the first time in my life, and although I was happy for the whole experience, for buying nice snakes, etc, part of me was shocked with loads of aspects.

I've even mentioned to people who were with me that 'I'd not like to be a reptile in a show like that'.

By no means I'm against shows, and will certainly attend to other shows, but I think there are huge improvements that can be made.


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## kaimarion

I did notice that some of the Inverts had bug gel in with them and I think one stall I seen gave their snakes a water bowl but all/most of the snakes should have a water bowl in with them.


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## Young_Gun

kaimarion said:


> I did notice that some of the Inverts had bug gel in with them and I think one stall I seen gave their snakes a water bowl but all/most of the snakes should have a water bowl in with them.


You then need to factor in the maintenance side of it then, as everyone knows, snakes tip bowls, and unless you get heavy sqaut ones (which won't really be an option in small tubs) they are gonna get tipped, which means the tub needs to be cleaned out then, sellers tryin to keep an eye on stock, talk to potential customers, deal with actual customers, keep an eye on animals health and cleanin out tubs?

I wouldn't wanna be a stall holder with somethin else added to the list to do, specially with so many people milling about, 'Here love, hold this royal while I change its paper towel'.


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## Fangio

Young_Gun said:


> You then need to factor in the maintenance side of it then, as everyone knows, snakes tip bowls, and unless you get heavy sqaut ones (which won't really be an option in small tubs) they are gonna get tipped, which means the tub needs to be cleaned out then, sellers tryin to keep an eye on stock, talk to potential customers, deal with actual customers, keep an eye on animals health and cleanin out tubs?
> 
> I wouldn't wanna be a stall holder with somethin else added to the list to do, specially with so many people milling about, 'Here love, hold this royal while I change its paper towel'.


Indeed, also you'll get people moving/picking up the tubs and water splashing all over the snakes. It's a bad idea having water in tubs at a show IMO. They wouldn't drink every day in the wild so a few hours without water isn't gonna affect them.


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## kaimarion

Forgot about the whole spilling water side of things....oooooppppppss lol :blush:.


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## Maureen Collinson

I have to go with Nerys and Steve too in that some things need to be changed in the interest of the animals welfare. I do believe that all the reptiles should be offered a drink during the day too. I agree it means more work for the seller, but surely as animal lovers it is the correct thing to do for them.

I have noted some of you saying that snakes go without water for long periods in the wild, but the snakes do have a choice about the temps they remain at until they have access to water. Hot days often bring cold nights too which in turn will bring with them a morning dew which the reptiles will make the most of.

One more thing. Have any of you noticed how dry you can become when under some form of stress? Can any of you prove one way or another that the reptiles at the shows are not stressed, and don't feel extra thirsty because of any added stress? If the answer is that you have no concrete proof, then surely as a responsible caring owner, you owe it to that animal to err on the side of caution and provide them with water.

Before any of you also say I don't have a clue when it comes to selling at a show, oh yes I do. I used to breed and sell, and I still have the display stands that I used back then. I also used to alternate the animals on show to the public, thus giving the first shift so to speak a break, shut away in total peace with water provided etc. Lots of extra work for me, but I hopefully kept the stress levels of my charges down, and that in turn helped the day go better for me too, as otherwise I would have been on a guilt trip for sure. It was hard enough parting with my babies as it was, and I was known for refusing people that did not come across correctly. I also ensured everyone used amprotect back then too, along with other measures some of which have now come into force at the UK shows, but not before time I might add. 

I hope to see further improvement at our shows this year, as alas they were still not fully up to par when I last visited them. 

Maureen.


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## ratboy

Maureen Collinson said:


> I have to go with Nerys and Steve too in that some things need to be changed in the interest of the animals welfare. I do believe that all the reptiles should be offered a drink during the day too. I agree it means more work for the seller, but surely as animal lovers it is the correct thing to do for them.


The way I see around this Mo ...

If I have say 10 hatchlings of one snake species to sell... Do I actually need them ALL in cricket tubs on a table ? ... No, of course I dont. They are all basically little clones of each other in the first place... so why not have ONE in a reasonably sized tub, with a water bowl. The 10 hatchlings can be cycled during the day and the 9 that are not on display can be kept in lunchbox sized, opaque containers away from public view with a water bowl and a hide.

There is no reason to have them ALL on display, ALL of the time.

This would surely cut down stress levels quite dramatically.


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## ratboy

Ally said:


> I'll read the rest of the thread in a second...
> I have met him... He used to have a stall outside Texco every Friday in High Wycombe...


I have met him too Ally... albeit very briefly.


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## Athravan

ratboy said:


> The way I see around this Mo ...
> 
> If I have say 10 hatchlings of one snake species to sell... Do I actually need them ALL in cricket tubs on a table ? ... No, of course I dont. They are all basically little clones of each other in the first place... so why not have ONE in a reasonably sized tub, with a water bowl. The 10 hatchlings can be cycled during the day and the 9 that are not on display can be kept in lunchbox sized, opaque containers away from public view with a water bowl and a hide.
> 
> There is no reason to have them ALL on display, ALL of the time.
> 
> This would surely cut down stress levels quite dramatically.


I've seen a few people do this in the UK, a couple at Rodbaston last year.. unfortunately they were keeping ALL the hatchlings in the SAME large tub with water. Taking one out on display, when it's sold, taking another out...

So okay, the animals have more space, and now they have water... but you have the added dangers of keeping 20 baby corns in one faunarium in a pile.


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## ratboy

Athravan said:


> So okay, the animals have more space, and now they have water... but you have the added dangers of keeping 20 baby corns in one faunarium in a pile.


I was thinking more of 20 opaque tubs to give them some seclusion.


I don't think a live 'very rarely happens honest guv' display of ophiophagus tendancies in baby corns would do us much good :lol2:


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## stephenie191

As to the whole water thing - snakes don't drink much anyhow.

Hours, even a day without a water bowl won't kill them. They don't drink every day anyhow.

Most breeders do keep their reptiles in good conditions at shows, from what i've heard and seen from pics.

I can't comment much as i havn't been to a show yet


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## Maureen Collinson

Spot on Steve. 

Thats how I used to do it.  There is no need to have all on the table at once. 

Mo.


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## ratboy

Maureen Collinson said:


> Spot on Steve.
> 
> Thats how I used to do it.  There is no need to have all on the table at once.
> 
> Mo.


Have you seen my PM Mo ?


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## Maureen Collinson

Just read it and replied as well Steve. 

I have also found a place to tick, so hopefully now i will be made aware of incoming pm's, as my box is being well used at present. LOL

Mo. x


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## ratboy

Maureen Collinson said:


> Just read it and replied as well Steve.
> 
> I have also found a place to tick, so hopefully now i will be made aware of incoming pm's, as my box is being well used at present. LOL
> 
> Mo. x


I tried that... and ended up turning it off again... it's damned annoying :lol2:


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## gtm

ratboy said:


> The way I see around this Mo ...
> 
> If I have say 10 hatchlings of one snake species to sell... Do I actually need them ALL in cricket tubs on a table ? ... No, of course I dont. They are all basically little clones of each other in the first place... so why not have ONE in a reasonably sized tub, with a water bowl. The 10 hatchlings can be cycled during the day and the 9 that are not on display can be kept in lunchbox sized, opaque containers away from public view with a water bowl and a hide.
> 
> There is no reason to have them ALL on display, ALL of the time.
> 
> This would surely cut down stress levels quite dramatically.


You do in Hamm - German Law says that each animal on sale has to be in a seperate container.


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## Maureen Collinson

gtm,

I would just like to be sure I understand you correctly please. 

Do I take your comment of *'you do in Hamm'* to mean that sellers have to have all of their snakes on display at once, or that that it is a rule that each snake has to be housed on their own?

If you are referring to the separate housing then that is great news, and a very good step in the right direction.

Thanks,

Maureen.


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## Maureen Collinson

stephenie191 said:


> As to the whole water thing - snakes don't drink much anyhow.
> 
> Hours, even a day without a water bowl won't kill them. They don't drink every day anyhow.
> 
> Most breeders do keep their reptiles in good conditions at shows, from what i've heard and seen from pics.
> 
> I can't comment much as i havn't been to a show yet


Yes and no Stephenie. 

In other words there is no straight forward reply there, unless you have evidence to prove what you say is factual. There are many things to take into account first before such an important item such as drinking water can be dismissed, and in so doing, one will find that owing to what is involved in lots of cases, the reptiles, which includes snakes could well require far more water than normal in order to cope with the ordeals that some are put through. This being so, then it is surely best to err on the side of caution. Think about it next time you are thirsty on a very hot day, add stress to that, and see how your system copes without the fluid. Headache springs to mind straight away here, as the brain requires fluids in order to function correctly. Now I'm not saying snakes suffer from headaches, but their immune systems will start to suffer if they are stressed and in need of water but denied it. 

My hubby just reminded me of how after 10 minutes of my snakes being filmed for a TV program, where they were in a room under bright lights with lots of people around, I helped myself to plastic cups and fresh water and at the same time as me having a drink, both of my snakes were drinking straight out of a cup too, and they both half emptied theirs. Different places, different circumstances often call for what is not the norm for the same animals, so you can not therefore base your judgment on the fact that sat back at home in their viv at the correct temps, IE, an optimum cool end that they could go without water for a while with no problem. 

Can anyone who says the snakes are fine without water whilst placed under any form of duress no matter how slight, prove that they are fine without access to water during that period? If so, then I, and I'm sure many others would love to see this proof. Until such time, we must have the animals welfare at heart, and thus see to their needs, or we are failing them badly, and maybe even open to prosecution in the near future for failing to do so.

Maureen.


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## purejurrasic

I created a fuss about tubs this time last year. And the water issue.

Having been to many of the UK shows, and spoken to Frank at hamm personally, I Know that rules are in place at all of the shows.

However, In the case of the UK, I am still dismayed that whilst many of the smaller hobby breeders are now using better quality tubs, many of the bigger names are not. 

Yet people still buy from them? 

Its the show organisers task to ensure that proper rules are in place and are enforced.

I know for a fact organisers do indeed make checks at hamm, and that dealers /traders/ bredders have been ejected for one reason or another.

Lets hope that those responsible for arranging many shows here in the UK take a leaf out of the smaller shows books, and actually start enforcing some of the regs this year .


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## essexchondro

Hi all,

What I picked up on from that article was the bit where Clifford states that as soon as he saw *the video footage* of the Hamm show he was seeing problems with how the animals were being kept. Right, so he wasn't actually at the show?!?!?! Its fair to assume, then, that what Clifford actually saw was an edited summary of the so called "highlights" of the show (I assume he wasn't watching multi-screen CCTV footage of the whole place simultaneously for the 8 or so hours that the animals are there for?!). So, the $1,000,000 question is who was doing the recording, who was doing the editing of the recording, and what was their own political agenda and purpose for recording in the first place?? Couple that with Clifford's own obvious agenda and that video footage is no better than pure fiction.


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## Chris Newman

The Hamm show is well regulated and the rules are pretty draconian and enforced, before the hall is open to the public it is independently inspected by veterinary inspectors and monitored through the day by members of the BNA, if I recall correctly. Some where I have a copy of the regulations in English and if I can locate them I will post them here.

In terms of containers, yes animals in containers have to be individual and the sides of the containers opaque, with the top clear.

Not wishing to elicit the roth of Mo (not that brave) I would question the issue of water requirements. The requirements for humans and snakes are entirely different, we feeble creatures (humans) have less tolerance of deprivation of water then snakes. On balance I think the disadvantages of providing water far exceed the benefits, therefore I still hold the view unless specifically necessary, water should be withheld at shows. However, I would entirely agree that temperature is critical and perhaps further consideration should be given to setting maximum and minimum temperatures for shows!

As for the comments by Mr Warwick, well to suggest the man is a buffoon is unkind to buffoons. Other than fools, the gullible, and the clinically insane no one takes him seriously these days, his credibility was as evanescent as his credentials.


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## ratboy

stephenie191 said:


> As to the whole water thing - snakes don't drink much anyhow.
> 
> Hours, even a day without a water bowl won't kill them. They don't drink every day anyhow.


Stress levels make them more agitated and therefore more thirsty (IMO). I always take water with me... and the majority of my snakes do take water during the day.

To me, the fact that they drink it means I must provide it.


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## ratboy

purejurrasic said:


> Its the show organisers task to ensure that proper rules are in place and are enforced.


To me, this is the way forward. It is the organisers show at the end of the day and they have their rules. Anyone that does not follow them should be told to leave.


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## Dexter

But it wasn't only this that shocked me the most. It was hot as hell in that place which I could not believe for that time of the year. The place was packed, and because the animals are not separated by groups (of course there are breeders with several different species, but at least some sense of organisation would not hurt), people seem to be nervous and in a hurry to find what they want. There is an unnecessary amount of people bumping at each other in from of stalls they don't want to see.

My snakes don't like to much movement around them, they get stressed, so I also think that there are many animals that didn't need to be on display, probably half of it.

I also think that a show as popular as Hamm (with the amount of people it fetches) they should have a snakes on saturday, and lizards + insects on sunday. Of course if the breeder had both, he would apply for the day that suits him best. Also, there are venomous snakes breeders that also sell lizards, that's fine, just trying to get things more organised, give breeders and visitors more space.

Also I saw a few people droping / bumping boxes containing animals, etc. That's much because of the hurry and amount of people walking about, so another reason why things should be more organised.


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## Maureen Collinson

Here's a link to the Hamm show rules in English .

Mo. 

..:: Terraristika Hamm ::.. - Fair rules


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## Maureen Collinson

Chris Newman said:


> The Hamm show is well regulated and the rules are pretty draconian and enforced, before the hall is open to the public it is independently inspected by veterinary inspectors and monitored through the day by members of the BNA, if I recall correctly. Some where I have a copy of the regulations in English and if I can locate them I will post them here.
> 
> *I have placed a link to the Hamm show rules in another post here Chris.
> 
> 
> * In terms of containers, yes animals in containers have to be individual and the sides of the containers opaque, with the top clear.
> 
> Not wishing to elicit the roth of Mo (not that brave) I would question the issue of water requirements. The requirements for humans and snakes are entirely different, we feeble creatures (humans) have less tolerance of deprivation of water then snakes. On balance I think the disadvantages of providing water far exceed the benefits, therefore I still hold the view unless specifically necessary, water should be withheld at shows. However, I would entirely agree that temperature is critical and perhaps further consideration should be given to setting maximum and minimum temperatures for shows!
> 
> *Whilst I agree and fully accept that snakes can fare far better than us humans when deprived of water Chris, and taking into account that the temperature issue is dealt with, adult snakes could cope well without water for the duration of the show. I still feel that it is asking too much of a tiny **corn hatchling for example. This is judging by what I have witnessed to date.
> Now if certain issues were dealt with, I would not deem it as bad, but stress coupled with heat, and the fact that some breeders push to sell hatchlings that have already absorbed their egg sacs, but have not fed, or only fed a couple of times, so perhaps weak to start with is bang out of order, and it does go on, and this in its self means that the little snakes can dehydrate quite quickly, and though it might not show straight away, can affect their tiny kidneys long term.
> 
> Although I have met you part way now, I personally cannot agree fully with you, so I will 'smile' sweetly and agree to differ with you. Like Ratboy, my snakes when taken on a trip for filming, shows, exhibitions, etc, have always been given access to water, and most have accepted it, so must have wanted it as I don't see snakes drinking unless they feel the need to do so.
> *



By the way Chris you only need to be concerned when you see this flag showing.  













Whoops. You just did. :lol2:

Mo.


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## royalpython

i agree with a lot of whats being said, but do feel the need to make a comment. A lot of people are speaking of shows, when the show in this thread is about Hamm, not UK, or any other place mentioned. A lot of pressuming being made that everything is the same... can people comment whether the show was actually as bad, and were actually there. (not having a dig at you mo, but you are pressuming the reptiles stress and need water... the show is open for 6 hours. i understand to a hatchling corn thats never eaten might be under deyhdration, stress etc... but then, i have to make the comment of... were you actually there to vision this? I never even looked at corns, but if others noticed, who were actually there? please correct me and then i'll agree with Mo's comment about sellers at hamm...) I just think a review about a place should come from those who were actually attending, rather than pressuming everything is the same.

A human saying it felt like an oven could be numerous temperatures. When i'm in my snake room (at 80F) i sweat like mad, and i don't believe i thought it was any warmer at hamm than in my snake room, and i was wearing a hooded top at hamm coupled with a back pack.

The tubs are small for a reason with some reptiles, but i cant comment on others. I do agree about the hide scenario, but then i started thinking - if someone wants to make a sale, they then have to disturb the animal while it's in the hide, and the people at hamm seemed pretty strict on... "you cant handle unless you buy". I was wondering if tinted lids, or my other half suggesting blacked out lids you could slide open, not sure how much better that would be.


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## Maureen Collinson

Hi royalpython,

As you say a lot of people are talking now of shows in general, including ones here in the UK, me being one of them. As you say the thread started off being about Hamm, so I am guilty as charged with joining others in straying from the main stream. :blush: 

In answer to your question as well, no I did not attend the show at Hamm, or indeed any abroad this year, but I am taking note however of comments from people who did attend in person from both sides of the fence so to speak. 

My interest lays with the fact that although Hamm has very strict regulations the animal welfare groups are still far from happy, and it is obvious they want something done about it, and will continue to work to that end. Now though it no longer affects me personally, I do see great danger for the shows here, as last year things were still very slack, and with the Animal Welfare Act in place, if things are not done now to improve the way the reptiles are treated, then many could live to regret the fact that they did not do something about tidying up their act whilst they still had the chance.

Mo.


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## Dexter

I've never been to a show in the UK, and all comments I made were about this last Hamm show. I hope I made that clear.

By the way, it was bloody hot there, I think I'd have felt more comfortable in the Sahara Desert.

But much of that was probably because the place was packed, towards the end it was a lot more pleasant.


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## royalpython

oh well, like i say, could have been many temperatures, hot for some may not be as hot for others. we'd just be hazarding wild guess's. I was in at the beginning of the show and middle.

I do know when i handled my royals when i bought them at about 2pm, they were not warm, they were cool. Temperature is a funny thing. It wasn't a cool temperature (for the royals) that concerned me either... and they certainly were not as warm as i've handled them in my own place. All of this is temperature dependant on how cold or warm i felt of course.


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## royalpython

Maureen Collinson said:


> Hi royalpython,
> 
> As you say a lot of people are talking now of shows in general, including ones here in the UK, me being one of them. As you say the thread started off being about Hamm, so I am guilty as charged with joining others in straying from the main stream. :blush:
> 
> In answer to your question as well, no I did not attend the show at Hamm, or indeed any abroad this year, but I am taking note however of comments from people who did attend in person from both sides of the fence so to speak.
> 
> My interest lays with the fact that although Hamm has very strict regulations the animal welfare groups are still far from happy, and it is obvious they want something done about it, and will continue to work to that end. Now though it no longer affects me personally, I do see great danger for the shows here, as last year things were still very slack, and with the Animal Welfare Act in place, if things are not done now to improve the way the reptiles are treated, then many could live to regret the fact that they did not do something about tidying up their act whilst they still had the chance.
> 
> Mo.


Sounds like people in the UK need a talking to. I think with many aspects to a lot of things, there is always room for improvement. Hopefully my first UK show is a pleasant one. 

Oh, and just for the record... i bought two royals and they fed on my first offering, which would be 2 days after arriving home with them, they then went on and took a second meal also.. so i'm fairly happy with how things went for me (i did myself more harm than the snakes at that show, carrying around that back pack really hurt my back!! i'm prone to bad backs, so quite silly of me really :lol: )


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## Chris Newman

Maureen Collinson said:


> By the way Chris you only need to be concerned when you see this flag showing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whoops. You just did. :lol2:
> 
> Mo.


 
Now Mo, you and I are both big enough, old enough and most certainly ugly enough to ‘agree to disagree’!! However, I’m not sure we are actually disagreeing. You in fact made a very valid point, which is some of a hobby horse of mine and that concerns age of hatchlings, or more precisely weather they are feeding or not. It is a difficult and contentious issue, but I am firmly of the view that ‘hatchlings’ MUST be feeding before they are sold at such events. Now how that is written into the rules, i.e. they animal must have had a minimum of 3 voluntary feeds, or what ever, is a separate issue I guess. Given that we can ‘somehow’ agree a standard, then I stand by my views that robust hatchlings do not need water at such events.


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## boomslang40

I think temperature isnt too much of an issue to be honest so long as they;re not dangerously hot or cold. We like to stick our vivs to the average day and night temps of the country our herps come from, but out temperatures can only ever represent an average, every country in the world experiences temperature fluctuations,

When it rains aroudn teh equator, the latent energy require for evaporation causes temperatures to drop, cloud cover can, other days can be scorchers, deserts have massiev night time drops too.
If you were to keep english people as pets you would keep them at say a steady 25 degrees as that's what they're used to :lol2: I know we're mammals so the same doesnt apply, but the fact pet species escape causing wild populations e.g. burmese in florida keys, shows how adaptable they are to different temperatures


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## Maureen Collinson

Chris Newman said:


> Now Mo, you and I are both big enough, old enough and most certainly ugly enough to ‘agree to disagree’!! However, I’m not sure we are actually disagreeing. You in fact made a very valid point, which is some of a hobby horse of mine and that concerns age of hatchlings, or more precisely weather they are feeding or not. It is a difficult and contentious issue, but I am firmly of the view that ‘hatchlings’ MUST be feeding before they are sold at such events. Now how that is written into the rules, i.e. they animal must have had a minimum of 3 voluntary feeds, or what ever, is a separate issue I guess. Given that we can ‘somehow’ agree a standard, then I stand by my views that robust hatchlings do not need water at such events.


As much as I don't like reading your opening sentence Chris, I have to be honest and thus agree fully with you there, even if it hurts. OUCH. LOL. Well, I am all of those things anyway. :lol2:

Put the way you have Chris, which is why you are where you are today, we are not disagreeing at all. 

Now I suggest you get yourself a drink, and be prepared for a long rant. :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


The problem would be implementing the above. Both you and I know that though Mary/John will give all of their charges the extra loving care in order to ensure that when it comes to the time of sale their snakes/lizards will cope with the change over, even if it means no feeding straight away as they will have had a very good start in life, where as Fred/Alice will have wanted to cut out the work factor involved, and thus clear the hatchlings out quickly, saving the work load and possible problems of being stuck with non-feeders. I have lost count of the amount of non-feeders, or bad doers that have been sold at shows, and have had to pick up the pieces for many by taking such animals on until they are in fact an established feeder. This problem in my opinion is made worse by those same people having bred their adults too early in some cases, and then gone on to hatch much weaker and more reluctant to feed baby snakes. 

To an experienced eye a lot of the problems can be spotted and could be acted on at the time, but even when I personally have drawn the show holders attention to such things, it has been ignored. I complained about boxes stacked on top of each other at a couple of shows too, and were being knocked over by people crowding round the tables. That should never have been allowed in the first instance. That was ignored too. As said in another post, if you have x amount of amel corns for sale, why the need to have them all on the table top at once. You only need a few at most, of both sexes if you have them. The others could be left where they feel more secure until the first have sold. 

When it comes to the water issue, I agree with you that on condition the hall temps are not above the comfortable range for said species , then even the hatchlings could cope well for those amount of hours, BUT, and as you see it is a BIG BUT, are we talking about just those hours? I question that strongly owing to the fact of the amount of reptiles brought to the shows by many, and the distance they have had to travel with the animals, and what containers they have them in at the time. You and I have been around as you say long enough to know for a fact Chris, that John/Mary or Fred/Alice has for example many hours drive ahead of them and an early start, so the norm would be to have everything packed up by very early evening the day before, and then worn out take themselves to bed and up early and on the road as fast as they can, arriving at the show in time to set up just before the public start arriving so how long now have those same hatchings for example been without water now Chris? Most shows are in the summer too, and with the stress levels at their highest, I can easily see that many of those reptiles will be requiring water after all. It also does not help when some show organizers decide to stick exhibitors with livestocks directly under glass roofs with the midday sun pouring in on them. These sort of issues need some very careful thought if the welfare of the animals is to be upheld.

Can you ever be sure that the above has not occurred Chris? If not then is it not better to err on the side of caution, and perhaps insist that at some time during the day that all exhibitors take the time out to give all of their charges the chance of a few slips of water at least? 

I also feel that with hatchling snakes and lizards, they should not be allowed to sit on the tables in those flimsy (totally see through from every angle) cricket boxes, or be sold in them, as to me that is a cheap and crude way of housing them, plus they are too small even for the smallest of hatchling snakes, which do need to be given the choice of hiding or moving to different areas of their enclosure in comfort. Even if brought new and correct non-damaging holes are made in them by the sellers, they still bend and push in too easily to be considered as suitable protection for the babies inside of them, and it encourages buyers to sometimes keep them in them when back at home. Lets see more time and effort put into the care of creatures that we have brought into this world that are helpless themselves and thus relying on a responsible keeper for their welfare. Most buyers should if they care about the animal they are buying be willing to pay an added cost of a proper size box for the hatchling. Always a sensible move too, if it's the one the hatchling feels safe in, and is feeding well from already, as that is half the battle won already for the new owner. For those that object, surely this could be explained to them, and if they still object then, I personally would turn them away for obvious reasons. 

Having just glanced at the FBH rules on the other thread, they are good, BUT I go fully with Toyah on the 2 rules she has mentioned. The sooner these rules are in place the better all round. Perhaps I could then go to a show and enjoy it for a change instead of fretting over this and that animal, and being ignored when I mention it because I am just a silly old woman. 

With regards to ages of hatchlings, well I firmly believe that in order to be able to withstand the challenges ahead of them, often in beginners hands, that all lizard hatchlings should be 3 months, taking into account the fact the mortality rate for lizards is at it's highest for the first 6 months of their lives, and all hatchling snakes should have had around the 5 feeds which must include a second shed and another feed directly after that shed. I have never counted the first shed which they go into from almost straight out of the egg anyway. I also base it on the amount that have fed up until the first shed then refused after the shed. That in the past has sometimes been indicative of an internal problem of some sort, so again better to wait and be sure.

Now I do know of some breeders that already adhere to the above, and I have also heard moans about the fact that their prices are too high, and it seems that the buyer would rather pay less for a younger and thus more fragile animal then pay the extra, which I might add won't be extra in the long run, and might in fact be a huge saving both in time and money, and the live of the said hatchling, so if they care about animal welfare, more than trying to get that bargain, then perhaps we can all hold our heads up and be able to say that 'Animal Welfare matters to us' and we are proving it by our actions.

The days of breeders getting shot of the fragile and the non-feeders first, should be at an end full stop. If they can't cope with doing the right thing by the creatures that they helped bring into the world, then it's time they stopped breeding and went on to do something else as their hearts are in to. 

Rant over for now. 

Mo.  

PS I'm shocked that more members have not yet commented on the FBH rules for the shows. Perhaps the silence means they all agree with them.  If not, and the rules come into force as they stand at the time without their input, then they have only themselves to blame for not speaking up sooner, if they later object.


----------



## Dexter

Maureen Collinson said:


> As much as I don't like reading your opening sentence Chris, I have to be honest and thus agree fully with you there, even if it hurts. OUCH. LOL. Well, I am all of those things anyway. :lol2:
> 
> Put the way you have Chris, which is why you are where you are today, we are not disagreeing at all.
> 
> Now I suggest you get yourself a drink, and be prepared for a long rant. :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:
> 
> 
> The problem would be implementing the above. Both you and I know that though Mary/John will give all of their charges the extra loving care in order to ensure that when it comes to the time of sale their snakes/lizards will cope with the change over, even if it means no feeding straight away as they will have had a very good start in life, where as Fred/Alice will have wanted to cut out the work factor involved, and thus clear the hatchlings out quickly, saving the work load and possible problems of being stuck with non-feeders. I have lost count of the amount of non-feeders, or bad doers that have been sold at shows, and have had to pick up the pieces for many by taking such animals on until they are in fact an established feeder. This problem in my opinion is made worse by those same people having bred their adults too early in some cases, and then gone on to hatch much weaker and more reluctant to feed baby snakes.
> 
> To an experienced eye a lot of the problems can be spotted and could be acted on at the time, but even when I personally have drawn the show holders attention to such things, it has been ignored. I complained about boxes stacked on top of each other at a couple of shows too, and were being knocked over by people crowding round the tables. That should never have been allowed in the first instance. That was ignored too. As said in another post, if you have x amount of amel corns for sale, why the need to have them all on the table top at once. You only need a few at most, of both sexes if you have them. The others could be left where they feel more secure until the first have sold.
> 
> When it comes to the water issue, I agree with you that on condition the hall temps are not above the comfortable range for said species , then even the hatchlings could cope well for those amount of hours, BUT, and as you see it is a BIG BUT, are we talking about just those hours? I question that strongly owing to the fact of the amount of reptiles brought to the shows by many, and the distance they have had to travel with the animals, and what containers they have them in at the time. You and I have been around as you say long enough to know for a fact Chris, that John/Mary or Fred/Alice has for example many hours drive ahead of them and an early start, so the norm would be to have everything packed up by very early evening the day before, and then worn out take themselves to bed and up early and on the road as fast as they can, arriving at the show in time to set up just before the public start arriving so how long now have those same hatchings for example been without water now Chris? Most shows are in the summer too, and with the stress levels at their highest, I can easily see that many of those reptiles will be requiring water after all. It also does not help when some show organizers decide to stick exhibitors with livestocks directly under glass roofs with the midday sun pouring in on them. These sort of issues need some very careful thought if the welfare of the animals is to be upheld.
> 
> Can you ever be sure that the above has not occurred Chris? If not then is it not better to err on the side of caution, and perhaps insist that at some time during the day that all exhibitors take the time out to give all of their charges the chance of a few slips of water at least?
> 
> I also feel that with hatchling snakes and lizards, they should not be allowed to sit on the tables in those flimsy (totally see through from every angle) cricket boxes, or be sold in them, as to me that is a cheap and crude way of housing them, plus they are too small even for the smallest of hatchling snakes, which do need to be given the choice of hiding or moving to different areas of their enclosure in comfort. Even if brought new and correct non-damaging holes are made in them by the sellers, they still bend and push in too easily to be considered as suitable protection for the babies inside of them, and it encourages buyers to sometimes keep them in them when back at home. Lets see more time and effort put into the care of creatures that we have brought into this world that are helpless themselves and thus relying on a responsible keeper for their welfare. Most buyers should if they care about the animal they are buying be willing to pay an added cost of a proper size box for the hatchling. Always a sensible move too, if it's the one the hatchling feels safe in, and is feeding well from already, as that is half the battle won already for the new owner. For those that object, surely this could be explained to them, and if they still object then, I personally would turn them away for obvious reasons.
> 
> Having just glanced at the FBH rules on the other thread, they are good, BUT I go fully with Toyah on the 2 rules she has mentioned. The sooner these rules are in place the better all round. Perhaps I could then go to a show and enjoy it for a change instead of fretting over this and that animal, and being ignored when I mention it because I am just a silly old woman.
> 
> With regards to ages of hatchlings, well I firmly believe that in order to be able to withstand the challenges ahead of them, often in beginners hands, that all lizard hatchlings should be 3 months, taking into account the fact the mortality rate for lizards is at it's highest for the first 6 months of their lives, and all hatchling snakes should have had around the 5 feeds which must include a second shed and another feed directly after that shed. I have never counted the first shed which they go into from almost straight out of the egg anyway. I also base it on the amount that have fed up until the first shed then refused after the shed. That in the past has sometimes been indicative of an internal problem of some sort, so again better to wait and be sure.
> 
> Now I do know of some breeders that already adhere to the above, and I have also heard moans about the fact that their prices are too high, and it seems that the buyer would rather pay less for a younger and thus more fragile animal then pay the extra, which I might add won't be extra in the long run, and might in fact be a huge saving both in time and money, and the live of the said hatchling, so if they care about animal welfare, more than trying to get that bargain, then perhaps we can all hold our heads up and be able to say that 'Animal Welfare matters to us' and we are proving it by our actions.
> 
> The days of breeders getting shot of the fragile and the non-feeders first, should be at an end full stop. If they can't cope with doing the right thing by the creatures that they helped bring into the world, then it's time they stopped breeding and went on to do something else as their hearts are in to.
> 
> Rant over for now.
> 
> Mo.
> 
> PS I'm shocked that more members have not yet commented on the FBH rules for the shows. Perhaps the silence means they all agree with them.  If not, and the rules come into force as they stand at the time without their input, then they have only themselves to blame for not speaking up sooner, if they later object.


Bloody hell, this must be the longest post ever. I'll have to print and hope I can finish reading by the end of the year :crazy:


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## pam b

Dexter said:


> Bloody hell, this must be the longest post ever. I'll have to print and hope I can finish reading by the end of the year :crazy:


Dont knock our Mo, or Chis if anyone tries it, I'm getting nosgalgic this is like the old days of Cview.
Many try to copy, and many fail miserably.
Valid points both of you i think, actually it is having to make me think, more mulling over required before i do anything more than have a laugh about times past.
And NOOOOOOOOOOO you wont drag me in : victory:


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## ratboy

Dexter said:


> Bloody hell, this must be the longest post ever.


One of the most sensible too


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## Dexter

ratboy said:


> One of the most sensible too


Yeah, I enjoyed the first 15 minutes of reading. Hopefully I'll finish reading by midnight :lol2:


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## Incubuss

What an idiot!


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## Dexter

Incubuss said:


> What an idiot!


Are you talking to me ? Hope not.

Just a little be of good sense of humour won't hurt.


----------

