# pit bull



## hedgehog738

are pit bulls illeagel in england? because i saw someone today with one with no muzzel or anything. i thought it might be a staffy so i asked her n she said it was a pit bull 


?????


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## sarahc

*pitbulls*

they are and it's a crap law that punishes the victims(the dogs)who never asked to be born and has turned them into an even bigger status symbol.Poor sods.


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## Jczreptiles

I believe pitbulls are but pitbull crosses are not.


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## LoveForLizards

Jczreptiles said:


> I believe pitbulls are but pitbull crosses are not.


They are, all "pit bull type" dogs are.


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## lizardloverrach

They are illegal, but, you can actually keep one in certain circumstances if you can prove it is not a danger to the public, its spayed/neutered, microchipped, registered and leashed/muzzled in public.


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## gazz

The American pit bull terrier the goverment put all sorts of red tape in place(That they should be spayed/Castrated,micro chipped,registered to stop the breeding of them) so by now there shouldn't be any now in the UK.However they'er are still American pit bull terriers in Republic of Ireland.So it's still possible there finding there way into the UK vier the Republic of Ireland.Whether is was said they are illegal to own ?.But American pit bull terriers are illegal to own with out them being Spayed/Castrated,Micro chipped,registered'etc.

One other thing is a lot of people are breeding Bullterrier types with bulldogs and maststiff types.And in stead of calling them crossbreeds they are calling these cross's Pitbull's.So really these dogs are illegal coz threre only UK Bullterrier types cross bulldog or masstiff cross or a blend of all.


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## Mischievous_Mark

Its probly a staffy cross and the woman was just acting up shes needs to be careful because her dog will be seized under the dangerous dog act and most likely be destroyed,

Pitbulls that are exsiting in the country need to be tattooed, castrated/spayed, chipped and registerd with the police this is to cull the breed out all togethe rin the UK,


they must also be wearing a muzzle at all times in a public place and on a lead at all times


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## KathyM

lizardloverrach said:


> They are illegal, but, you can actually keep one in certain circumstances if you can prove it is not a danger to the public, its spayed/neutered, microchipped, registered and leashed/muzzled in public.


 
You would have to go to court, admit to owning a banned dog and take the chances of them being put down though. The dog would have to spend months in police kennels while it is "examined" by "breed experts" (rarely have a clue). I know of dogs who didn't survive this experience thanks to the poor care in kennels.


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## LiamRatSnake

We saw a pit bull the other day with it's ears cropped and everything. It's a real shame cos I'd put money on that dog being used to fight, it seems to be becoming a problem in this area among the Asian youths. We witnessed a fight in a back yard in the area recently, called the police and they scarpered, to fight their dogs another day.


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## lauren loves leo's

well i personally think its how you RAISE the dog. any dog can be nasty, bring it up right and its fine!! you abuse the dog or teach it to bite then it will.
the worst thing is when people 'play' with there dogs by letting the dog latch on to the owners arm and then the dog thinks its a game all the time.
buggers.


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## gazz

LiamRatSnake said:


> We saw a pit bull the other day with it's ears cropped and everything.


Are you 100% it was a American pit bull terrier ?.Coz some of the recent import mastiff breeds have cropped ear but this is nothing to do with fighting.
It's just somthing done for the breed in the county they came from.

A UK member on here got a mastiff breed I beleave.From South Africa i beleave.When he/she got the dog it was ear cropped.


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## LiamRatSnake

gazz said:


> Are you 100% it was a American pit bull terrier ?.Coz some of the recent import mastiff breeds have cropped ear but this is nothing to do with fighting.
> It's just somthing done for the breed in the county they came from.
> 
> A UK member on here got a mastiff breed I beleave.From South Africa i beleave.When he/she got the dog it was ear cropped.


It was deffo a Pit Bull/pit x It couldn't have been anything else.


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## JulieNoob

LiamRatSnake said:


> It was deffo a Pit Bull/pit x It couldn't have been anything else.



Not sure how you can be so sure - this type are very difficult to identify -a Lab X Staff can look very pit bull ....


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## LiamRatSnake

JulieNoob said:


> Not sure how you can be so sure - this type are very difficult to identify -a Lab X Staff can look very pit bull ....


I suppose. We were pretty sure anyway, always a chance we were mistaken, but I'd have put money on it.


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## hedgehog738

gazz said:


> Are you 100% it was a American pit bull terrier ?.Coz some of the recent import mastiff breeds have cropped ear but this is nothing to do with fighting.
> It's just somthing done for the breed in the county they came from.
> 
> A UK member on here got a mastiff breed I beleave.From South Africa i beleave.When he/she got the dog it was ear cropped.



yes i am sure because she just said before she had just met its sister, n i saw the dog and its little sister. non of them had any muzzels on.


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## KathyM

Plenty of retards in this country claiming their dogs are "pit bulls" when they're not. I don't know why any loving owner would want to admit it if they were, it's only tits that think they're hard that say they have one. Makes them feel less of a tit for paying through the nose for a mongrel.


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## LiamRatSnake

KathyM said:


> Plenty of retards in this country claiming their dogs are "pit bulls" when they're not. I don't know why any loving owner would want to admit it if they were, it's only tits that think they're hard that say they have one. Makes them feel less of a tit for paying through the nose for a mongrel.


I agree, if you cared for your dog, you wouldn't go around syaing it's a pit bull, one whiff from the Authorities and it's PTS.


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## longhaircavies

The presa is a mastiff that when imported has its ears cropped. I have 1 but not an import and iv had people ask me if thats what he is, when clearly he's not.
There are alot and i mean alot of pits still over here, being sold under different names such as the red nose staff, american red nose to ry and cover up. If im n ot mistaken a true well breed staff should have a black nose no matter if their colour. That program that was on the other night 7 dogs for 7 people featuring staffs, had red noses on it so reallt they should not have had them. Like people say its a shame they have the name they have and yes its mainly down to the owner, but its also breed into them and some times is not ALWAYS the owners fault. 
There are lots imported from ireland and other countrys and get in with no probs as its down on their documents that they are staff crosses, alot of the time its down that their crossed with labs as someone stated earlier.
Its a shame that people are now crossing staff and pitts with mastiffs to make bigger more powerfull dogs which being a mastiff owner is such a shame as they dont need a bad name aswell they are gengle giants, most of the time.


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## luke2702

KathyM said:


> Plenty of retards in this country claiming their dogs are "pit bulls" when they're not. I don't know why any loving owner would want to admit it if they were, it's only tits that think they're hard that say they have one. Makes them feel less of a tit for paying through the nose for a mongrel.


Completely agree with this comment.

I own a doberman and a staffy and the K**bs who hang around at the shops with there mongrels always try and set there dog on to mine. These people need to be put to sleep not the dogs.

Also i think you should have to own dog licenses like you did many years ago, i know it would not stop the k**bs getting these types of dogs but would make it harder to sell/advertise to sell dogs if you had to prove you were aloud to own dogs and had been checked out.

Also think they should be a age limit to own certain types of dogs so they do not get mis treated and brought up wrongly may be this would have stopped certain dog breeds getting banned. IT IS NOT THE DOGS FAULT IT IS THE WAY THEY ARE BROUGHT UP THEY ONLY DO WHAT THEY ARE ASK TO DO!!!


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## longhaircavies

When a say not always the owners fault, i mean you could get a dog in good will to be a pet but its how theyve been breed, so yes its the persons fault but the breeder not always the owner.



longhaircavies said:


> The presa is a mastiff that when imported has its ears cropped. I have 1 but not an import and iv had people ask me if thats what he is, when clearly he's not.
> There are alot and i mean alot of pits still over here, being sold under different names such as the red nose staff, american red nose to ry and cover up. If im n ot mistaken a true well breed staff should have a black nose no matter if their colour. That program that was on the other night 7 dogs for 7 people featuring staffs, had red noses on it so reallt they should not have had them. Like people say its a shame they have the name they have and yes its mainly down to the owner, but its also breed into them and some times is not ALWAYS the owners fault.
> There are lots imported from ireland and other countrys and get in with no probs as its down on their documents that they are staff crosses, alot of the time its down that their crossed with labs as someone stated earlier.
> Its a shame that people are now crossing staff and pitts with mastiffs to make bigger more powerfull dogs which being a mastiff owner is such a shame as they dont need a bad name aswell they are gengle giants, most of the time.


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## gazz

LiamRatSnake said:


> It was deffo a Pit Bull/pit x It couldn't have been anything else.


Really ?,Deffo ?,Couldn't be anything else ?.

Here's two cropped eared American pit bull terriers.
A band breed in the UK.









Here's two cropped eared Dogo canario.
A breed that's fully legal two own in the UK.
It's not legal for then to be cropped in the uk.
If they have have cropped ears there F1 UK imports.









Here a Dogo Canario the UK now with cropped ears.
Spanish Mastiff / Presa Canario / Dogo Canario Imports


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## saxon

I agree that it's not always the owners fault a dog is dog aggressive but it is their fault if it is allowed to carry out an attack!

Some breeds are naturally dog aggressive and it's difficult to train this out of them..I know it's possible I'm saying it's difficult.
I have my bitch who, through having a fight with my unaggressive 'Staff X', is now 'bitch aggressive'. I'm in the process of trying to rectify this but it's proving very difficult.

Of course I have her on a lead and muzzled when I take her out just in case some 'tit' with a small bitch decides it can come and play with her.
Not all dog aggressive dogs are owned by 'tits' are they? Sometimes it's the over friendly dogs who are owned by 'tits'.


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## longhaircavies

gazz said:


> Really ?,Deffo ?,Couldn't be anything else ?.
> 
> Here's two cropped eared American pit bull terriers.
> A band breed in the UK.
> image
> 
> Here's two cropped eared Dogo canario.
> A breed that's fully legal two own in the UK.
> It's not legal for then to be cropped in the uk.
> If they have have cropped ears there F1 UK imports.
> image
> 
> Here a Dogo Canario the UK now with cropped ears.
> Spanish Mastiff / Presa Canario / Dogo Canario Imports


 
Just what i have but a brindle and like i said mine doesnt have croped ears and iv still had people ask me if he's a pitt, so it goes to show some people really cant tell.


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## LiamRatSnake

gazz said:


> Really ?,Deffo ?,Couldn't be anything else ?.
> 
> Here's two cropped eared American pit bull terriers.
> A band breed in the UK.
> image
> 
> Here's two cropped eared Dogo canario.
> A breed that's fully legal two own in the UK.
> It's not legal for then to be cropped in the uk.
> If they have have cropped ears there F1 UK imports.
> image
> 
> Here a Dogo Canario the UK now with cropped ears.
> Spanish Mastiff / Presa Canario / Dogo Canario Imports


There's a good chance your right, but them dogs do look a lot different. I'm not up on breeds, but my Mum is, and after hearing about dog fights and witnessing one myself, it's easy to jump to the obvious conclusions.
If they were cropped pits, I'm not assuming they were done legally/professionally.


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## marthaMoo

I was only just telling my sisters Oh that I saw one in a local town today.

A young red and white male with the full leather harness and collar on : /

I know there are apbt types around, but I havent seen a apbt in this area for many years.

I was quite shocked and saddened to see it being shown off in public like that, with no regard for its life if it were to be seized.

A good few years ago I was all "its about the owner and its nothing to do with the dog" but it is also to do with the dogs and anyone thinking any different is very stupid. Allot of these apbt's are from fighting lines and Bull Breeds are naturally reactive anyway. Mix the two and it could be like walking a loaded gun.

I had a friend who had an apbt, she had it from a puppy, she was brought up in a multi animal house, more socalised than most dogs I know. One day she took her out with her other dogs and let her off lead. Something must of just snapped as she spotted two terriers the other side of the field and just flew. The two terriers were killed on the spot, they didnt stand a chance. My friend did the only thing she knew she had to do and took her girl to the vets and had her pts.

My point, these dogs can and will just snap and most of the time you wont see it coming.


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## gazz

LiamRatSnake said:


> If they were cropped pits, I'm not assuming they were done legally/professionally.


But that my point the mastiff imports are legal breeds to own in the UK.So if you own a F1 import mastiff with cropped ears you have nothing to worry about coz you'll have all the forms and import papers'etc.

However if you did own a American pit bull terrier the last thing you do is crop it's ears.So who in there right mind would ?.Crop the ears of a band dog breed as that would draw exsta attention to them.


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## LiamRatSnake

marthaMoo said:


> I was only just telling my sisters Oh that I saw one in a local town today.
> 
> A young red and white male with the full leather harness and collar on : /
> 
> I know there are apbt types around, but I havent seen a apbt in this area for many years.
> 
> I was quite shocked and saddened to see it being shown off in public like that, with no regard for its life if it were to be seized.
> 
> A good few years ago I was all "its about the owner and its nothing to do with the dog" but it is also to do with the dogs and anyone thinking any different is very stupid. Allot of these apbt's are from fighting lines and Bull Breeds are naturally reactive anyway. Mix the two and it could be like walking a loaded gun.
> 
> I had a friend who had an apbt, she had it from a puppy, she was brought up in a multi animal house, more socalised than most dogs I know. One day she took her out with her other dogs and let her off lead. Something must of just snapped as she spotted two terriers the other side of the field and just flew. The two terriers were killed on the spot, they didnt stand a chance. My friend did the only thing she knew she had to do and took her girl to the vets and had her pts.
> 
> My point, these dogs can and will just snap and most of the time you wont see it coming.


I'm a beleiver in, it's the owner not the breed philosophy, but I think some breeds are more likely to snap, than others. The main problem in my eyes is that Bull breeds are more likely to eat a child, not because of the breed, because of the type of people they appeal to. I'm sure most owners are good, I know lots of Staffie/Mastiff ect owners who are brill, but the people after a status dog don't go for Collies.


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## LiamRatSnake

gazz said:


> But that my point the mastiff imports are legal breeds to own in the UK.So if you own a F1 import mastiff with cropped ears you have nothing to worry about coz you'll have all the forms and import papers'etc.
> 
> However if you did own a American pit bull terrier the last thing you do is crop it's ears.So who in there right mind would ?.Crop the ears of a band dog breed as that would draw exsta attention to them.


You're quite right, I din't think about it like that, unless they're fighting the dog (I always assumed they were cropped as it's one less thing to be ripped off).


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## fenwoman

hedgehog738 said:


> are pit bulls illeagel in england? because i saw someone today with one with no muzzel or anything. i thought it might be a staffy so i asked her n she said it was a pit bull
> 
> 
> ?????


 yes they are illegal and I am glad they are. Vile things. I wish a few more breeds would go the same way too.:devil:


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## fenwoman

marthaMoo said:


> I was only just telling my sisters Oh that I saw one in a local town today.
> 
> A young red and white male with the full leather harness and collar on : /
> 
> I know there are apbt types around, but I havent seen a apbt in this area for many years.
> 
> I was quite shocked and saddened to see it being shown off in public like that, with no regard for its life if it were to be seized.
> 
> A good few years ago I was all "its about the owner and its nothing to do with the dog" but it is also to do with the dogs and anyone thinking any different is very stupid. Allot of these apbt's are from fighting lines and Bull Breeds are naturally reactive anyway. Mix the two and it could be like walking a loaded gun.
> 
> I had a friend who had an apbt, she had it from a puppy, she was brought up in a multi animal house, more socalised than most dogs I know. One day she took her out with her other dogs and let her off lead. Something must of just snapped as she spotted two terriers the other side of the field and just flew. The two terriers were killed on the spot, they didnt stand a chance. My friend did the only thing she knew she had to do and took her girl to the vets and had her pts.
> 
> My point, these dogs can and will just snap and most of the time you wont see it coming.


 You'll get flamed for seeing sense like that. This breed and other high aggression breeds like the presa etc should be wiped off the face of the earth. They have no place in public or in a family situation. Hpowever much the afficionaods tell you they are bred for one thing and one thing only, to kill other liveing creatures. They do it for fun with almost no sign of outward aggression. I have seen youtube videos of these 'things' attacking other people's pet dogs and they are like a machine. No growling, no snarling, no raised hackles, just silent killing mode. I wish the blasted beasts were all wiped off the face off the earth and I make no apologies for saying so, even to those who want people to believe that they are as sweet natured as any cavalier king charles spaniel and could live happily with small children, old ladies and pet cats. They can't!! :bash:


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## gazz

marthaMoo said:


> My point, these dogs can and will just snap and most of the time you wont see it coming.


ANY dog of any breed or cross breed can trigger snap there will be a reason it just hard to work out what.It just if a Jack Russel snaps it's not likly to get reported there is meny jacks out there that have gone for meny people.You may get harmed but the threat of death to a human over 5 ? is't there.If a Rottweiler snaps harm and death is of great concern to all human ages.

Deed not Breed but also dogs like humans have differant personalities.


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## gazz

marthaMoo said:


> Allot of these apbt's are from fighting lines and Bull Breeds are naturally reactive anyway. Mix the two and it could be like walking a loaded gun.


So what are you doing with two of these loaded guns ?.What a stupid thing for a Staffie owner to say:whistling2: :roll:.Do you need reminding why staffies was created.


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## fenwoman

gazz said:


> So what are you doing with two of these loaded guns ?.What a stupid thing for a Staffie owner to say:whistling2: :roll:.Do you need reminding why staffies was created.


 The Staffordshire Bull terrier was originally bred to bait bulls. Hence the 'bull' bit in the name. originated in Staffordshire , hence the 'Staffordshire' bit in the name and was also used for ratting in the slum areas where they were popular among the inhabitants of rat infested slums.
The pit bull was bred to fight other dog in a dog fighting pit. Hence the 'pit' bit in the name. According to the book I read, American sercivemen during the 2nd world war, liked the gameness and style of our Staffordshire bull terriers and took them home to cross with some of their native breeds to produce a game pit dog. Ergo, the Pit Bull Terrier.
I like Staffies, but would never own one. I'm afraid I consider them too much of a liability with my other animals. They may not have a short fuse exactly but when they snap, they snap good and proper. Imagine that attitude but in something the size of a large labrador, owned by a twit who believes what he was told about them being no worse than any other breed, and perfect docile family pets. That's a bloodbath waiting to happen. It's the breed which does the deed. Decimate all fighting breeds. They have no place in society. Staffies are not fighting breeds but I believe there should be a blanket ban on them being bred until the problem with the thousands of problem and unwanted dogs has been solved. All ban-dog type dogs should also be outlawed and then some breeds should be banned completely from inner cities and council estates. In one fell swoop, the number of problem breeds owned by problem half wits would have been solved.


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## LiamRatSnake

My problem with Staffie's is simply with breeding them. When I went to thee dogs home, almost every dog was a Staffie. There's idiots breeding them when I can only guess at how many need homes.


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## Andy

fenwoman said:


> The Staffordshire Bull terrier was originally bred to bait bulls. Hence the 'bull' bit in the name. originated in Staffordshire , hence the 'Staffordshire' bit in the name and was also used for ratting in the slum areas where they were popular among the inhabitants of rat infested slums.
> The pit bull was bred to fight other dog in a dog fighting pit. Hence the 'pit' bit in the name. According to the book I read, American sercivemen during the 2nd world war, liked the gameness and style of our Staffordshire bull terriers and took them home to cross with some of their native breeds to produce a game pit dog. Ergo, the Pit Bull Terrier.
> I like Staffies, but would never own one. I'm afraid I consider them too much of a liability with my other animals. They may not have a short fuse exactly but when they snap, they snap good and proper. Imagine that attitude but in something the size of a large labrador, owned by a twit who believes what he was told about them being no worse than any other breed, and perfect docile family pets. That's a bloodbath waiting to happen. It's the breed which does the deed. Decimate all fighting breeds. They have no place in society. Staffies are not fighting breeds but I believe there should be a blanket ban on them being bred until the problem with the thousands of problem and unwanted dogs has been solved. All ban-dog type dogs should also be outlawed and then some breeds should be banned completely from inner cities and council estates. In one fell swoop, the number of problem breeds owned by problem half wits would have been solved.


The book you read is wrong they were bred for fighting. If you read a bit more into the breed you would find that out. Could you imagine a SBT taking on a bull really?! SBT did descend from early Bull & Terriers which were used to bait bulls but when bull baiting was banned the good folk of Staffordshire took to dog fighting instead and bred the Staffordshire Bull Terrier for the purpose of dog fighting. A good book on the history of SBT is "Celebrating Staffordshire Bull Terriers" by Stephen Stone, he goes into great detail about the breed and its origins.

Celebrating Staffordshire Bull Terriers by Steve Stone ( A really good book for anyone interested in the breed)


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## marthaMoo

Sorry Gazz but I totally disagree with you.

So maybe you can explain to me then why my friends dog ripped the heads off of two JRT's without any warning at all?

The lines we are getting in this country are from fighting lines, illegaly brought into this country to fight, breed and sell on. The pet apbt are long gone.

Would I have one of these dogs in my house? hell no!

Just like if I wanted a pet lab I wouldnt go out and find the best strain of working lab I could find to be a pet and do nothing all day.
But yet your telling me its ok for a normal person who may not be an experienced dog owner to own an apbt from fighting lines?

As I have said before I'm into protecting the breed I love and the decent owners who own them. Not the people who own these dogs to use and abuse them and put there lives and others at risk.

Fenwoman :2thumb:


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## *H*

JulieNoob said:


> Not sure how you can be so sure - this type are very difficult to identify -a Lab X Staff can look very pit bull ....


This is true, my bitch is a Staffy cross Lab (and that is 100% definite as I know the parents) and we have had the question a few times.
It is people mistaking many cross dogs (mainly staffy crosses) as 'pits or pit type' that has resulted in many family pets being pts :devil:


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## Andy

I know what people mean about Staffies snapping. My male has snapped once at a dog field and its a scary situation. One minute he was fine and the net it was like flipping a switch turning him to kill mode. Luckily I had him on the lead and could take control of the situation. Imagine 18 kilos of muscle wanting to rip another dogs throat out. Now he is muzzled when we go to the dog field as I cannot trust him 100% and he is always on the lead. The amount of idiots though who will still let their dogs come wandering over to him is unbeleivable. If it was a young lad with a staffy off the lead and it snapped and attacked another dog unless you know what to do and act quick the staffy isn't going to be stopped easily.


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## Shell195

In Merseyside there is a mixed animal rescue who`s kennels are filled with X Staffs and Pit type dogs that are the centre of legal battles. The kennels have signs up on the front of the pens like I BITE and IM AGGRESSIVE. What I find sad is these dogs are doomed to life in a cage and most will end up euthanised eventually. While the kennels are full of these types of dogs what happens to the other friendly dogs that need to go into rescue, they are killed as there are no rescue places left for them to go. Its all very sad


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## dopey.rachel

I get what most of you are saying and realise that i will probably get abused for my view but my mum's friend had a lab right from a puppy, when her husband left her the lab was about 5 and for no reason what so ever attacked her twice so go pts.
A friend of mine has a rottie and a jack russel everyones wary of the massive rottie when in actual fact he's more likely to lick you to death and the jack russel attack you.

In large I feel its people giving certain breeds bad names, I know bad breeding does come into it to a degree but most of it is down to the idiots that own the dogs as a status symbol.


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## Andy

fenwoman said:


> yes they are illegal and I am glad they are. Vile things. I wish a few more breeds would go the same way too.:devil:





fenwoman said:


> breeds like the presa etc should be wiped off the face of the earth.
> 
> They have no place in public or in a family situation. I wish the blasted beasts were all wiped off the face off the earth





fenwoman said:


> breeds should be banned completely from inner cities and council estates. In one fell swoop, the number of problem breeds owned by problem half wits would have been solved.


You really have some vile views for a so-called animal lover.


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## dopey.rachel

My brother has a blue heeler and he has to be muzzeled at all times when out of the house as when he was first allowed out as a pup he got bitten by someone's collie that was off the lead and now he has dog aggression.
Does this mean you all think he should be pts rather than the collie that actually attacked him to start with.


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## gazz

fenwoman said:


> The Staffordshire Bull terrier was originally bred to bait bulls. Hence the 'bull' bit in the name.


*Bull terrier* derived from the *bull and terrier*.when *bulldogs* of the time that was use for baiting was bred with *terriers* such as the Black & tanned and the now extinct White english terrier.When dog fighting replaced baiting.



> The Staffordshire Bull Terrier first came into *existence* in or around the seventeenth century. *As bull baiting declined in popularity* and* dog fighting* enjoyed a surge of interest, it became necessary to develop a dog which possessed a longer and more punishing head than the Bulldog and also to combine strength and agility. It is therefore believed that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was derived from the fighting *Bulldog* of the day with some *terrier blood* introduced. This cross produced what was known as the* Bull and Terrier* or Pit Dog.


Staffordshire Bull Terriers U.K. Breed Council of G.B.and N.Ireland


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## fenwoman

Andy said:


> The book you read is wrong they were bred for fighting. If you read a bit more into the breed you would find that out. Could you imagine a SBT taking on a bull really?! SBT did descend from early Bull & Terriers which were used to bait bulls but when bull baiting was banned the good folk of Staffordshire took to dog fighting instead and bred the Staffordshire Bull Terrier for the purpose of dog fighting. A good book on the history of SBT is "Celebrating Staffordshire Bull Terriers" by Stephen Stone, he goes into great detail about the breed and its origins.
> 
> Celebrating Staffordshire Bull Terriers by Steve Stone ( A really good book for anyone interested in the breed)


 We've had this discussion before. So do tell, why is the word 'bull' in the breed name? What about old paintings which exist showing a clearly recogniseable staffy hanging off the end of a bull's nose while others attack the hind quarters. You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the fact that they are named bull terriers for a reason and don't know how baiting worked obviously. 
On the one hand you say they were never used to bait bulls but then on the other hand, they descended (apparently) from a breed which used to bait bulls. I disagree with you as I have in the past on the subject.
If they were indeed purely pit dog, then frankly, I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth too. But sinbce I know they weren't (having a grandmother, from Staffordshire, who kept, bred and showed the breed and knew them inside out) I am happy to see them exist, even though I wish there weren't so many owned by d1ckwads.


----------



## gazz

marthaMoo said:


> Sorry Gazz but I totally disagree with you.
> 
> So maybe you can explain to me then why my friends dog ripped the heads off of two JRT's without any warning at all?


Well first you siad the dog was took out with other dogs own by the person.If the APBT was such a dog and being from a fighting line it would have took the other house hold dog on long ago.

You siad the APBT ran to the other side of the field.So you don't know if it ran other just for a nose.And the Jack's acted the wrong way.Jacks are not known for there backing down nither would a APBT.What happens when you have a dog stand off and no one backs off.Yes a fight sadly the Jacks didn't have size on there side.


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## fenwoman

dopey.rachel said:


> My brother has a blue heeler and he has to be muzzeled at all times when out of the house as when he was first allowed out as a pup he got bitten by someone's collie that was off the lead and now he has dog aggression.
> Does this mean you all think he should be pts rather than the collie that actually attacked him to start with.


 I for one think that it simply means that he needs to b e trained by someone who knows what they are doing, and that his owner needs to stop using the one attack, ages ago, as an excuse for continuing aggression.


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## dopey.rachel

fenwoman said:


> I for one think that it simply means that he needs to b e trained by someone who knows what they are doing, and that his owner needs to stop using the one attack, ages ago, as an excuse for continuing aggression.


He is trained by someone who knows the breed and has worked with the breed in australia on a cattle farm.
It is possible for one attack to cause this reaction, even the behaviourist has said this.

You just seem to jump to conclusion about dogs and their owners. One bad story about a certain breed of a dog doesn't mean all are bad. If that was the case then regardless of how my brothers dog reacts the collie that attacked him should of been pts as it attacked. and from reading your other posts that should mean all collies should be pts because one was bad.


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## KathyM

Andy said:


> You really have some vile views for a so-called animal lover.


That's the one thing I'd never accuse Fenwoman of being. :no1:


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## gazz

fenwoman said:


> We've had this discussion before. So do tell, why is the word 'bull' in the breed name? What about old paintings which exist showing a clearly recogniseable staffy hanging off the end of a bull's nose while others attack the hind quarters.


The Bull bit come from the fact that bull dog was used to created Bull terriers.

They are not staffies in the print they are bull dogs.Back then there was no KC to f:censor: up the breed.Todays UK Bull dogs look nothing like they use tld type UK Bull dogs looked more like the American bull dogs.










Amercan bulldog.









Bulldog history.
Bulldog History - Homestead Bullhunde - Bulldog Breeder, Ymir BC


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## marthaMoo

gazz said:


> Well first you siad the dog was took out with other dogs own by the person.If the APBT was such a dog and being from a fighting line it would have took the other house hold dog on long ago.
> 
> You siad the APBT ran to the other side of the field.So you don't know if it ran other just for a nose.And the Jack's acted the wrong way.Jacks are not known for there backing down nither would a APBT.What happens when you have a dog stand off and no one backs off.Yes a fight sadly the Jacks didn't have size on there side.


Ah so that makes it all ok then?

Fact is these dogs are banned for a reason.

In my mind its for there own safety to stop people from abusing them, and to stop them falling into the hands of people who would use them as wepons. Which they did and still continue to do so.

Certain scum have brought them back into the country from fighting lines, putting the dogs lives at risk. They dont give a toss about the dog, they only give a toss about themselves and what they can get out of it.

They should stay banned, and those that are in the country if they are of a decent nature and there owners are experienced dog owners should be allowed to be put on the register.
Then a total breeding ban should be put into place on all Bull Breeds. Anyone wishing to breed should have to apply to do so.


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## fenwoman

Andy said:


> You really have some vile views for a so-called animal lover.


 Just because I am an animal lover doesn't mean that I think that all dogs deserve life, or that all breeds are really just cute sweet snuggly things. I am not the minority here. People all over the world hate these fighting breeds and for good reason. Countries all over the world (including some parts of the USA) have banned pitbulls and other fighting and high aggression breeds. Why do you think this is so? Is it because we all of us have no idea really and just don't like the look of them or some other completely unreasonable idea about them? Or maybe it's because they have caused too many problems all over the world and sensible people don't happen to think that having something as large, aggressive and unpredictable as a pitbull, is sensible or responsible.
Look at this excerpt I found in a dog paper
_In Ontario, that is what has happened. The provincial government produced a law that banned all bull breeds and derivatives, including pitbulls and the Staffordshire bull terrier. All such existing dogs had to be registered, neutered and muzzled, leading to the bull-types dying out and owners learning to love the labrador or pug. The result? A huge fall in the number of dog-related injuries and incidents._
Are they talking nonsense? Is it a huge coincidence? Or is it perhaps that certain breeds and the type of people who own the breed whether they are nut jobs or blinkered, really are the nub of the problem and once you get rid of the high aggression breeds, the problems lessen?
I am an animal lover, but I just don't happen to belilve that animals are sacred or that they all deserve to live just because they are animals.


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## gazz

marthaMoo said:


> Ah so that makes it all ok then?.


Didn't say that it was ok.But it's you that has the idiotic stupid friend that lets dogs off leads in pupic feilds/parks.

That can happen to anyone that lets there dogs off lead.Just happened to be a APBT in this case.And due to you stupid friend the APBT and two Jacks payed the price.Dogs off lead in the garden.In public on lead safer for ever one. 

There's been this type of thing involing Staffie,Bull terrier,Jacks,Collies,Boxers'etc'etc breed it not the reason this happens.When people have off leaded dogs in parks.Problems involving dogs after animal,dogs after dogs,dogs after people can alway happen.It is a risk every time people of lead dogs.You could be the reason for.Or the receiving end of.


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## croc&chewy

How come people get their ears cropped? Is it for fighting or are they born like that?

There is an asian shop near me owned by a couple of young asians and they have a pitbull or something similar. I remember going in a couple of year ago and it was bloody huge, really stocky. It was friendly though, jumped up wagging his tail. 

The guy was bragging about him and then said 'if he got loose on a rampage the police couldn't stop him because we've taught him in our language'

I just walked off and thought what a right idiot. The dog seems friendly enough but I can't help but think that they would make it fight as that's what them lads are like.

Shame really, they are gorgeous dogs.


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## gazz

croc&chewy said:


> How come people get their ears cropped? Is it for fighting or are they born like that?


No they are not born like it.

People that fight dogs in other countrys crop dogs ears for fighting.It's so they don't flap about when fighting.

But in other countrys it's done for fashion.In USA the crop Amstaff's,Dobbies,Boxers,Boston's,Great dane's'etc'etc are ear cropped for the showring.


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## fenwoman

marthaMoo said:


> Ah so that makes it all ok then?
> 
> Fact is these dogs are banned for a reason.
> 
> In my mind its for there own safety to stop people from abusing them, and to stop them falling into the hands of people who would use them as wepons. Which they did and still continue to do so.
> 
> Certain scum have brought them back into the country from fighting lines, putting the dogs lives at risk. They dont give a toss about the dog, they only give a toss about themselves and what they can get out of it.
> 
> They should stay banned, and those that are in the country if they are of a decent nature and there owners are experienced dog owners should be allowed to be put on the register.
> Then a total breeding ban should be put into place on all Bull Breeds. Anyone wishing to breed should have to apply to do so.


 At last, someone with common sense :notworthy:
although you won't make any friends by saying sensible things. After all, the likes of you and I are horrible people who are cruel to animals and pitbulls are sweet cuddly lap dogs.


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## *H*

My opinion? Dogs are dogs no matter what breed and are far from 'demon dogs'. It's us humans that are vile and evil.


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## Zoo-Man

*H* meet Fenwoman..............

:lol2:
Sorry, couldn't help it!


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## Daniel1

gazz said:


> When people have off leaded dogs in parks.Problems involving dogs after animal,dogs after dogs,dogs after people can alway happen.It is a risk every time people of lead dogs.You could be the reason for.Or the receiving end of.


I have experianced this. I had my dog (Bull Terrier) on a lead on my property and a woman walking to the local green with her son and their West Highland Terrier, she let her Dog off on the road and he ran into my garden and my dog was defending (barking) his patch and the westie came running into my garden unleashed and the woman who owned the westie was screaming oh oh hes only a pup but he should not be off the lead in the first place and this Dog was aggressive and untrained and she had the cheek to say my Dog should be muzzled on my property. A week before Halloween my dog was attacked 3 times on one walk by an off lead Beagle and a week later another Dog ( possibly Lancashire Heeler) bit my dog on the face and apparently my Dog is supposed to be an aggressive breed and showed no aggression during these incidents and a few days ago my brother was walking our Dog, 2 Dogs ran out of a garden and tried to attack our Dog and the owner stood in her garden looking at my brother and didn't even bother calling the two Dogs back. The Beagle went for my brother while walking our Dog this week again and he had to fight it off. You would like to think a person with an aggressive dog would keep it leashed when in public:devil:.


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## lizardloverrach

Daniel1 said:


> I have experianced this. I had my dog (Bull Terrier) on a lead on my property and a woman walking to the local green with her son and their West Highland Terrier, she let her Dog off on the road and he ran into my garden and my dog was defending (barking) his patch and the westie came running into my garden unleashed and the woman who owned the westie was screaming oh oh hes only a pup but he should not be off the lead in the first place and this Dog was aggressive and untrained and she had the cheek to say my Dog should be muzzled on my property. A week before Halloween my dog was attacked 3 times on one walk by an off lead Beagle and a week later another Dog ( possibly Lancashire Heeler) bit my dog on the face and apparently my Dog is supposed to be an aggressive breed and showed no aggression during these incidents and a few days ago my brother was walking our Dog, 2 Dogs ran out of a garden and tried to attack our Dog and the owner stood in her garden looking at my brother and didn't even bother calling the two Dogs back. The Beagle went for my brother while walking our Dog this week again and he had to fight it off. You would like to think a person with an aggressive dog would keep it leashed when in public:devil:.


Same happened to me alot lately, summers been attacked various times. never has she been attacked by any so called 'dangerous' or large dogs! 
its westies, small x breeds etc every bloody time. 
P*sses me off the owners think because their small or supposed to be a gentle breed they can just get away with it!


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## daz30347

*Hi*

QUOTE:

The Staffordshire Bull terrier was originally bred to bait bulls. Hence the 'bull' bit in the name. originated in Staffordshire , hence the 'Staffordshire' bit in the name and was also used for ratting in the slum areas where they were popular among the inhabitants of rat infested slums.

They were actually bred due to the increased interest in dog fighting AFTER bull-baiting was outlawed 
Agreed,they were also used for "ratting",but not bred for the purpose


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## ern79

a few things
1. bull terrier, theres bull in the name because they were made from bulldogs and terriers, the working title was bull and terrier dogs until the name we are more familiar with stuck.
2. People really need to differentiate between dog aggressive dogs (DA), human aggressive dogs (HA) and those that are both. There seems to be a popular misconception that a bull breed that is DA will automatically have some kind of desire to harm humans at the drop of a hat, fighting dogs were bred specifically for their balance of high DA with minimal or lacking HA, after all the beloved staffy was a fighting tool used to make money but the people who owned them were not well off and the dogs lived in the house exhibiting tolerance to youngsters. Indeed a fighting dog that is HA is seen as a badly bred animal by the fighting community.
3. Whilst I absolutely adore the apbt and wish i were able to own a well bred specemin, i feel that bad owners would well exceed good owners were they legal, this is unfair both to the dogs and the general public, as a result i think it is sensible that the ban remain on these capable dogs because bad people ruin it for all. If they were legal you would see them on every street corner (more so than is already the case) as people would be without fear of the law, people would indiscrminately breed them, probably selecting high levels of general aggression totally out of keeping for the breed definition.
4. People keep saying these dogs are born killers etc. It is the continual bad breeding and poor selection, also cross breeding that makes these dogs bad. 
The apbt is supposed to be dog aggressive, however, if you look into the specifics of dog fighting (i will add now that i abhore this practice and any animal cruelty sickens me) fighters wash their opponents dog gefore a bout to ensure nothing toxic is on the coat, a referee is in the ring while the fight is going on, if a dog becomes fanged (its tooth goes through its own lip) the ref will sort this out with a pencil. if these dogs were supposed to be indiscriminate people biters, who the hell would chance handling the dogs in this way.
also, dogs that in peoples mind look, apbt and its amazing the array of dogs that people THINK look like pits, are probably some other kind of dog or cross. Again think about the bad name pits get that quite often is as a result of a cross bred dog, i know people like to think of mastiff breeds as gentle giants but look into their heritage, they are guarding dogs i.e. its in their history to be HA, combine the drive and athleticism of a pit bull with a gurading breed and youre asking for trouble, remember the bullmastiff was a game keepers dog used to seize and pin poachers so the game keeper could deal with them, add a dog with high levels of drive and theres your trouble maker!


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## ryanr1987

my rottie got attacked by a staff. some muppet left the gate open and it just flew at her. she slammed the dog into a parked car so i quickly grabbed the staff and chucked it over a fence. they are a very dog aggressive breed as well as apbt,akitas,tosas. all of which where bred to fight.


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## diamondlil

gazz said:


> Didn't say that it was ok.But it's you that has the idiotic stupid friend that lets dogs off leads in pupic feilds/parks.
> 
> That can happen to anyone that lets there dogs off lead.Just happened to be a APBT in this case.And due to you stupid friend the APBT and two Jacks payed the price.Dogs off lead in the garden.In public on lead safer for ever one.
> 
> There's been this type of thing involing Staffie,Bull terrier,Jacks,Collies,Boxers'etc'etc breed it not the reason this happens.When people have off leaded dogs in parks.Problems involving dogs after animal,dogs after dogs,dogs after people can alway happen.It is a risk every time people of lead dogs.You could be the reason for.Or the receiving end of.


Having just had my lurcher attacked by 4 staff crossbreeds, rescues that were all off-lead and went for her as a pack (the owner already having been warned to only walk 2 at a time and on lead at all times), I suppose you'd say it's my fault for having a normal, well-socialised dog who was off-lead with a large group of other well-socialised dogs? 
Normally any situation with dogs off-lead is no-blame accountable, but as this man had already been reported for his dogs attacking others he's getting another visit from the police and community dog warden. (I was lucky, Rosie got 2 minor bites, other dogs have had ears ripped off and serious injuries) If his aggressive dogs had been muzzled and under control there would have been no trouble. Because he's failed them as an owner they'll probably end up destroyed.


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## ern79

diamondlil said:


> Having just had my lurcher attacked by 4 staff crossbreeds, rescues that were all off-lead and went for her as a pack (the owner already having been warned to only walk 2 at a time and on lead at all times), I suppose you'd say it's my fault for having a normal, well-socialised dog who was off-lead with a large group of other well-socialised dogs?
> Normally any situation with dogs off-lead is no-blame accountable, but as this man had already been reported for his dogs attacking others he's getting another visit from the police and community dog warden. (I was lucky, Rosie got 2 minor bites, other dogs have had ears ripped off and serious injuries) If his aggressive dogs had been muzzled and under control there would have been no trouble. Because he's failed them as an owner they'll probably end up destroyed.


The owner of the aggressive dogs is at fault.


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## diamondlil

My old girl (RIP Ellie) was a pit x lab I had for 14 years. She never showed any aggression towards another dog her whole life. 2 fights ever, when attacked by a gsd bitch and by a rotty bitch, both times when bitten she put the other on its back then stopped. If she'd ever shown signs of not being trustworthy she'd have been muzzled to keep her and other dogs safe. I can't understand how any owner would disregard the safety of their own and others' dogs.


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## dracco

I have got to disagree with folk who say its the owners fault for aggressive dogs ,four years ago we rescued a pup from the cat and dog home .She had been abandoned with her brothers and sisters when they were born .We got her when she was eight weeks old and because she had been abandoned we did not know what kind of dogs she had came from.From day one she was aggresive and while she was a pup it wasnt to bad but as she got older it got worse ,she had to be muzzled 24 hours a day as if anyone came into the house she would attack them even if they had been in before .She got to the stage that she would go for folk if they were even on our drive way .We tried everything we could but eventually she attacked my son and my oh and had to be pts aftyer us having her for three years so its not always the owners fault as this dog was very much part of our family and very much loved but at the end of the day nothing worked and I felt I had no other option as the vet said next time the person she attacked may not be so lucky


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## ern79

dracco said:


> I have got to disagree with folk who say its the owners fault for aggressive dogs ,four years ago we rescued a pup from the cat and dog home .She had been abandoned with her brothers and sisters when they were born .We got her when she was eight weeks old and because she had been abandoned we did not know what kind of dogs she had came from.From day one she was aggresive and while she was a pup it wasnt to bad but as she got older it got worse ,she had to be muzzled 24 hours a day as if anyone came into the house she would attack them even if they had been in before .She got to the stage that she would go for folk if they were even on our drive way .We tried everything we could but eventually she attacked my son and my oh and had to be pts aftyer us having her for three years so its not always the owners fault as this dog was very much part of our family and very much loved but at the end of the day nothing worked and I felt I had no other option as the vet said next time the person she attacked may not be so lucky


Certainly not your fault, was it the fault of the breeder? lack of socialisation, taken too early from the mother? a mental issue? who can know, you did the right thing in destroying it though, and thats the difference, we as humans need to be more switched on to dogs that are problems and address the situation, if a dog is seriously HA, unless its purpose is for guarding, you either have to be VERY careful how you conduct yourself with the dog or neutralise the risk.


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## diamondlil

dracco said:


> I have got to disagree with folk who say its the owners fault for aggressive dogs ,four years ago we rescued a pup from the cat and dog home .She had been abandoned with her brothers and sisters when they were born .We got her when she was eight weeks old and because she had been abandoned we did not know what kind of dogs she had came from.From day one she was aggresive and while she was a pup it wasnt to bad but as she got older it got worse ,she had to be muzzled 24 hours a day as if anyone came into the house she would attack them even if they had been in before .She got to the stage that she would go for folk if they were even on our drive way .We tried everything we could but eventually she attacked my son and my oh and had to be pts aftyer us having her for three years so its not always the owners fault as this dog was very much part of our family and very much loved but at the end of the day nothing worked and I felt I had no other option as the vet said next time the person she attacked may not be so lucky


I'd never say that was your fault. It sounds like you tried all you could to give her a life whilst keeping other people safe by being responsible owners. It's people with dogs that are aggressive who don't care or think it's great who are the problem.


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## Mischievous_Mark

gazz said:


> Really ?,Deffo ?,Couldn't be anything else ?.
> 
> Here's two cropped eared American pit bull terriers.
> A band breed in the UK.
> image


These two are full pits, They are pit type definalty over 60% pit but they have a little something else there.



fenwoman said:


> The Staffordshire Bull terrier was originally bred to bait bulls. Hence the 'bull' bit in the name. originated in Staffordshire , hence the 'Staffordshire' bit in the name and was also used for ratting in the slum areas where they were popular among the inhabitants of rat infested slums.
> The pit bull was bred to fight other dog in a dog fighting pit. Hence the 'pit' bit in the name. According to the book I read, American sercivemen during the 2nd world war, liked the gameness and style of our Staffordshire bull terriers and took them home to cross with some of their native breeds to produce a game pit dog. Ergo, the Pit Bull Terrier.
> I like Staffies, but would never own one. I'm afraid I consider them too much of a liability with my other animals. They may not have a short fuse exactly but when they snap, they snap good and proper. Imagine that attitude but in something the size of a large labrador, owned by a twit who believes what he was told about them being no worse than any other breed, and perfect docile family pets. That's a bloodbath waiting to happen. It's the breed which does the deed. Decimate all fighting breeds. They have no place in society. Staffies are not fighting breeds but I believe there should be a blanket ban on them being bred until the problem with the thousands of problem and unwanted dogs has been solved. All ban-dog type dogs should also be outlawed and then some breeds should be banned completely from inner cities and council estates. In one fell swoop, the number of problem breeds owned by problem half wits would have been solved.


No mention of the Staffie also being know as the nanny dog way back in history then? Where they were bred to be good with children any dogs that showed aggression was culled. Breeding from only the dogs that were good with children passing it down to the next generation.


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## marthaMoo

gazz said:


> Didn't say that it was ok.But it's you that has the idiotic stupid friend that lets dogs off leads in pupic feilds/parks.
> 
> That can happen to anyone that lets there dogs off lead.Just happened to be a APBT in this case.And due to you stupid friend the APBT and two Jacks payed the price.Dogs off lead in the garden.In public on lead safer for ever one.
> 
> There's been this type of thing involing Staffie,Bull terrier,Jacks,Collies,Boxers'etc'etc breed it not the reason this happens.When people have off leaded dogs in parks.Problems involving dogs after animal,dogs after dogs,dogs after people can alway happen.It is a risk every time people of lead dogs.You could be the reason for.Or the receiving end of.


Stupid for letting a dog off lead, oh god yes! Heaven forbid anyone were to let there dog offlead in public!:whistling2:

I have never known any other breed of dog to snap like that and de head two dogs in a matter of seconds. The dog went straight in for the kill.

You trying to make out an apbt is the same as any other dog in its reactions is the only stupid thing around here. And people like you who try and make out these dogs are fine, fine enough to be in this country are the ones who are doing the damage to all the rest of us decent Bull Breed owners.


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## KathyM

TBH that dog won't have magically become dog aggressive in the span of one walk, so.... 

Given your "friend" knew she was an APBT, she would also know that she had an illegal dog and should've at the very least complied with what she would have to have done if she had had it registered legally, which was neutered it, tattooed it and muzzled it in public, keeping it onlead at all times. So if she knew she had an APBT and it was offlead and unmuzzled around dogs, she was 100% in the wrong and responsible for their deaths. Silly woman!

And ETA: am I right in thinking you have staffies? Shame on you for being so breed ignorant then, given they share blood with the APBT and you would have them destroyed. It'll be staffies next, they're already threatening it. What will you say then?


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## marthaMoo

KathyM said:


> TBH that dog won't have magically become dog aggressive in the span of one walk, so....
> 
> Given your "friend" knew she was an APBT, she would also know that she had an illegal dog and should've at the very least complied with what she would have to have done if she had had it registered legally, which was neutered it, tattooed it and muzzled it in public, keeping it onlead at all times. So if she knew she had an APBT and it was offlead and unmuzzled around dogs, she was 100% in the wrong and responsible for their deaths. Silly woman!
> 
> And ETA: am I right in thinking you have staffies? Shame on you for being so breed ignorant then, given they share blood with the APBT and you would have them destroyed. It'll be staffies next, they're already threatening it. What will you say then?


Ah, yes I do see that all apbt owners in this country keep there apbt onlead and muzzled and of course there all registered, neutered and chipped. :lol2: I thought thats why this topic started?

I have dogs, what breed they are doesnt matter as there all crossed with something or the other.

As for being Ignorant? where did I say I want them distroyed?
I think you will find I said that the register should be reopened for existing dogs, if they are of sound behaviour and come from responsible pet homes.
And that a breeding ban should come into effect for all other Bull Breeds. Along with neutering and chipping.

My point which you and others keep missing is that I love Bull Breeds I have worked with them for a number of years and have seen too much suffering. 
I want these dogs to be safe in good pet homes where they are looked after and loved as they should be. I don't want Bull Breed's to have to continue to suffer on such a huge scale as they do everyday. 
You think this war isnt coming anyway? because it is, and we will just have to ride it out. It wont be my fault though, it will be the fault of all the selfish irresponsable people in this country who keep illegal dogs and who use and abuse them, because of them the rest of us and our dogs will have to pay the cost.


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## Amalthea

I grew up where it isn't illegal to own (and breed) Apbts and I can honestly say that I have never met a nasty one. They have always been lovely smiley, waggy dogs! No, I wouldn't have on myself, but that's just because I am not keen on bull breeds. I am of the firm opinion that if the RIGHT person has one of these dogs, that dog can (and will) be a great addition to the family. But because their breeding in the UK is all "underground", the right people aren't working on them and the right people aren't getting them. It just seems only the wrong ones have them here.


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## KathyM

marthaMoo said:


> Ah, yes I do see that all apbt owners in this country keep there apbt onlead and muzzled and of course there all registered, neutered and chipped. :lol2: .


Since when did numbers of people acting like arseholes make it ok for your friend to be one? Reminds me of my mum saying to me as a child "If Sarah Brown jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?" :whistling2:

Whether other people do it or not, she was at fault. You carry on blaming the dog and claim that you're not ignorant, it's no skin off my nose but if I were you I'd rethink who I was defending. Your mate killed two JRTs, she clearly needs banning.


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## KathyM

marthaMoo said:


> it will be the fault of all the selfish irresponsable people in this country who keep illegal dogs and who use and abuse them, because of them the rest of us and our dogs will have to pay the cost.


Yes, like your idiot mate, I would take that up with her. :lol2:


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## SiUK

fenwoman said:


> Apt username dear.


you dont half spout some crap


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## dopey.rachel

fenwoman said:


> Apt username dear.


I must of missed the page where the topic was no longer about pitbulls and we ended up on a school playground. I always thought debate on a forum like this was good but some people seem to make it into personal attacks on people as they don't agree with what they believe. 
It would be one hell of a boring place if everyone believed the same thing, why not grow up and act your age rather than your shoe size and stick to the topic at hand rather than trying (badly i might add) to insult someone.


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## marthaMoo

My point Kathy was one day a switch went off in the dogs head and it attacked out of no where. That is what can happen when you keep these dogs from unknown lines (like the fighting lines that are in this country, not pet lines). It could of happened anywhere. You obviously havent had allot of experience with Bull Breeds.

The only stupid people are the ones who deny what these dogs can do and try and chocolate coat them and make them out to be something there not.
My friend learnt that by making a very big mistake, one that they will never forget or make again. Unlike allot of people.

Oh and, the person didnt know what the pup was when they got it from the rehoming centre, it just looked like a mixed breed puppy that was going to live in a loving pet home.
Which is very different to all these people knowingly buying them from back yard breeders for all the wrong reasons.


----------



## KathyM

marthaMoo said:


> My point Kathy was one day a switch went off in the dogs head and it attacked out of no where..


And my point is you said your friend had a known unregistered APBT off the lead and unmuzzled in a public place. Unless you're saying that your friend only decided it was a pit bull after it ate dogs, which would be ridiculous (and rather much like backpedalling) lol. And if she knew at the time, she was the one that was breaking the law, and therefore 100% responsible whether her dog had done it before or not. Simples.


----------



## gecko101

My freind has a pitbull, its the biggest most tame dog around! thay shouldnt be banned. I think if you have a pitbull you have to have a certain amount of land and time to spnd with it and have special training for it, i think =]


----------



## Andy

fenwoman said:


> We've had this discussion before. So do tell, why is the word 'bull' in the breed name? What about old paintings which exist showing a clearly recogniseable staffy hanging off the end of a bull's nose while others attack the hind quarters. You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the fact that they are named bull terriers for a reason and don't know how baiting worked obviously.
> On the one hand you say they were never used to bait bulls but then on the other hand, they descended (apparently) from a breed which used to bait bulls. I disagree with you as I have in the past on the subject.
> If they were indeed purely pit dog, then frankly, I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth too. But sinbce I know they weren't (having a grandmother, from Staffordshire, who kept, bred and showed the breed and knew them inside out) I am happy to see them exist, even though I wish there weren't so many owned by d1ckwads.


I explained why they had bull in their name in my post maybe you missed that and the three other peoples posts who have also replied telling you.

I would say your Grandmother was misinformed then, I could send you the book I mentioned if you were interested in learning about the breed? The author is a well known SBT expert and has been keeping them for decades amongst other well known breeders.

in alphabetical order, they include Les Aspin, Linda Barker, Candy Beauchamp, Malcolm Boam, Wlodek Cioc, Glenn Consadine, Karyn Dawes, Cheryl Ellicott, George Goddard, Abe Harkness, Jo Hemstock, Sarah Hemstock, Juanita Hobbs, Gerry Holmes, Julie King, Andrea Kitchen, Joe LeBlanc, Squibs Mercier,Terry Mueller, Jason Nicolai, Marlane Parra, Vic Pounds, Jean Richardson, Harry Rodeheaver,Alissa Romaine, Irma Rosenfield, Dr. Ellis Ruby,Sandra Smid, Colin Smith, Carolyn Stewart, Terry Stewart, George Urbanski, and Bob Whittall. 


This book also features original illustrations by Marion Field and a generous selection of photographs – most of which have never previously been published – from John F. Gordon's personal albums, courtesy of Joe LeBlanc. 



This book not only celebrates the proud history and sheer versatility of the Breed, every word on every page is devoted exclusively to the cause of the Stafford, including the problems encountered by Breed Rescue and the menace of Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) which mindless politicians seem intent on imposing on the dog-loving public in the face of overwhelming evidence of its ineffectiveness.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

gecko101 said:


> My freind has a pitbull, its the biggest most tame dog around! thay shouldnt be banned. I think if you have a pitbull you have to have a certain amount of land and time to spnd with it and have special training for it, i think =]


I don't think anyone should have them, they're illegal, and it's irresponsible to keep one, you couldn't get it treated by a vet for starters.


----------



## Andy

fenwoman said:


> _In Ontario, that is what has happened. The provincial government produced a law that banned all bull breeds and derivatives, including pitbulls and the Staffordshire bull terrier. All such existing dogs had to be registered, neutered and muzzled, leading to the bull-types dying out and owners learning to love the labrador or pug. The result? A huge fall in the number of dog-related injuries and incidents._


The government in the UK have already banned Pitbulls and it hasn't exactly stopped people owning them and stopped attacks. BSL has been proven time and time again not to work.


----------



## SiUK

Andy said:


> The government in the UK have already banned Pitbulls and it hasn't exactly stopped people owning them and stopped attacks. BSL has been proven time and time again not to work.


its a shambles, it does not and is not working


----------



## marthaMoo

KathyM said:


> And my point is you said your friend had a known unregistered APBT off the lead and unmuzzled in a public place. Unless you're saying that your friend only decided it was a pit bull after it ate dogs, which would be ridiculous (and rather much like backpedalling) lol. And if she knew at the time, she was the one that was breaking the law, and therefore 100% responsible whether her dog had done it before or not. Simples.



Oh how I would love to go round in circles all day Kathy :lol2:


----------



## KathyM

Andy said:


> The government in the UK have already banned Pitbulls and it hasn't exactly stopped people owning them and stopped attacks. BSL has been proven time and time again not to work.


Hear hear!


----------



## KathyM

marthaMoo said:


> Oh how I would love to go round in circles all day Kathy :lol2:


That's probably an inner ear problem. I would get it checked out.


----------



## gazz

marthaMoo said:


> I have never known any other breed of dog to snap like that and de head two dogs in a matter of seconds. The dog went straight in for the kill.


Why has every one on here seem to have"friends"this has happened too.

I fail to see why the Apbt when stright over for the kill(Was you there ?).If your friends Apbt was Dog aggressive it had dogs around it already owned by you friend.So IMO it's not that cut and dry.I'm willing to bet that the Apbt when over for a nose and the behavior of the Jacks triggered it.

Do you not feel responsible at all ?.With your attitude towards the breed.You knew your friend had a Apbt illegally yet you didn't reprot them ?.Had you done so the Jacks may still be live and well.


----------



## gazz

Mischievous_Mark said:


> These two are full pits, They are pit type definalty over 60% pit but they have a little something else there.


There pure Red nose Apbt.Pure Apbt's aren't stocky built like brick s:censor:t house.Amstaff's are and "Pitbull's"usually are(Bull and bull terrier breed cross's).


----------



## hedgehog738

did anyone see that programme a while ago about gangs with them and how easy it is to get hold of one?


----------



## fenwoman

Andy said:


> The government in the UK have already banned Pitbulls and it hasn't exactly stopped people owning them and stopped attacks. BSL has been proven time and time again not to work.


 Sadly the UK government brings out all kinds of laws and fails to enforce them. If they were to stringently enfore the law on this matter, it would succeed.


----------



## LoveForLizards

hedgehog738 said:


> did anyone see that programme a while ago about gangs with them and how easy it is to get hold of one?


The one on BCC3, My Weapon Is A Dog or something like that?

Dare I say it...most of the dogs I see people claim to be APBT's are infact Pit bull types, usually a staffy x lab or staffy-mastiff x lab.


----------



## KathyM

fenwoman said:


> Sadly the UK government brings out all kinds of laws and fails to enforce them. If they were to stringently enfore the law on this matter, it would succeed.


There is no way to stringently enforce a law that is vague and not specific, which is enforced by inexperienced people. As mentioned time and time again in these threads, even a pedigree labrador can measure up as type by up to 90%, and it doesn't have to fit 100% to be seized as illegal. 

It's a pants law, it will never work. It just drives dog fighting and other practices further underground, and punishes honest people and their pets.

Dangerous Dogs Act - The struggle against Breed Specific Law

Perfect example of why Section 1 is a ridiculous law that punishes the innocent. I can't read that without crying personally. 

Then there are the recent dogs that died in police custody from neglect and parvo. Think of all the months spent away from their owners, to be (if they're lucky) sent back skinny, covered in sores and petrified because of lack of socialisation for months on end. Disgraceful.


----------



## marthaMoo

KathyM said:


> There is no way to stringently enforce a law that is vague and not specific, which is enforced by inexperienced people. As mentioned time and time again in these threads, even a pedigree labrador can measure up as type by up to 90%, and it doesn't have to fit 100% to be seized as illegal.
> 
> It's a pants law, it will never work. It just drives dog fighting and other practices further underground, and punishes honest people and their pets.
> 
> Dangerous Dogs Act - The struggle against Breed Specific Law
> 
> Perfect example of why Section 1 is a ridiculous law that punishes the innocent. I can't read that without crying personally.
> 
> Then there are the recent dogs that died in police custody from neglect and parvo. Think of all the months spent away from their owners, to be (if they're lucky) sent back skinny, covered in sores and petrified because of lack of socialisation for months on end. Disgraceful.



Thing is you know as well as I do an outright ban on certain breeds will solve there problem, say they add Staffies and Staffie types to the list. As the problem seems to be with the DDA is that most people cant tell the difference between different Bull Breeds. You rule out anything that looks similar, problem solved.And thats what they will end up doing if things carry on going the way there going.

I dont think anyone is saying that keping dogs in kennels for the length of time they did was right and that dogs ended up suffering. Because that should never of happened.

You also have to remember allot of the dogs siezed had already suffered great cruelty, deeming them unfit to live, including there puppies.
I remember seeing that raid with several apbt kept in horrific conditions along with there young. Those dogs had probably not known a days love in there life. There young never grew to knew love either. And for what? so some pikey could own one. I cried for them, I'm sure there so called owner didnt loose any sleep.

That bloke I saw the other day with his apbt doesnt give a shite about me and my dogs, but by him being stood in public with his red nosed pit he is putting me and mine at risk. He also wouldnt give a shite if his dog were siezed, he certainly wouldnt be paying out to go through court to get his dog back so it would be distroyed.

So what is the answer then? 
All the answers I've seen involve getting rid of the DDA (and still no one can tell me if that involves lifting the ban on the banned breeds already on the DDA) and replacing it with something that is going to cost a fortune to set up and run which I cant see the government agreeing to. They are going to go for the cheapest and easiest option unless someone else can actually run and fund what ever else is proposed in place of the DDA.

I dont want these dogs in this country as its very obvious there is only a very small minority who can actually love and look after these dogs. The mass only want to use and abuse. So no, they have no place here for there own safety.


----------



## LoveForLizards

marthaMoo said:


> Thing is you know as well as I do an outright ban on certain breeds will solve there problem, say they add Staffies and Staffie types to the list.


Banning all or any dog breeds isn't going to work. Ever.


----------



## sarahc

*pitbulls*



*H* said:


> My opinion? Dogs are dogs no matter what breed and are far from 'demon dogs'. It's us humans that are vile and evil.


my opinion also.Border collie or pitbull = same species .All pups start life friendly,some are born with the odds stacked against them.Vile creatures they aren't.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

sarahc said:


> my opinion also.Border collie or pitbull = same species .All pups start life friendly,some are born with the odds stacked against them.Vile creatures they aren't.


Doesn't change the fact that different breeds have different temperaments. And to be honest, I havent heard (It may have happened of course) of anyone's child being eaten by a border collie.


----------



## LoveForLizards

LiamRatSnake said:


> Doesn't change the fact that different breeds have different temperaments. And to be honest, I havent heard (It may have happened of course) of anyone's child being eaten by a border collie.


But that would then put down our "lovable", "child friendly" lassies wouldn't it? I wouldn't let a child touch most border collies with a 6ft barge pole, personally. :lol:

I DO believe certain dogs have certain traits, ie. Bassets have short attention spans, EBTs have selective hearing, terriers are known to try and round up children and nip at ankles, pointers are notorious for trying to be lap dogs, certain breeds such as the Vizsla are loo dogs and so on, but I also do believe that the ban should be lifted on selected dog breeds (because if anything that's made things worse) and practices should be put in place for different people and different breeds.


----------



## sarahc

*child eaters*

plenty of kids been mauled by different breeds.What about the rotties that got the baby?Breeds owned by tossers(not suggesting all owners are).A dog is a dog.Some may have different temperements but they aren't born killers.They are turned into killers.They are born to be social.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

LoveForLizards said:


> But that would then put down our "lovable", "child friendly" lassies wouldn't it? I wouldn't let a child touch most border collies with a 6ft barge pole, personally. :lol:
> 
> I DO believe certain dogs have certain traits, ie. Bassets have short attention spans, EBTs have selective hearing, terriers are known to try and round up children and nip at ankles, pointers are notorious for trying to be lap dogs, certain breeds such as the Vizsla are loo dogs and so on, but I also do believe that the ban should be lifted on selected dog breeds (because if anything that's made things worse) and practices should be put in place for different people and different breeds.


I wouldn't let a child touch any dog to be honest. It really annoys me when I walk our dog, that people just let their kids touch him, if he snapped, unlikely as it is, it's irrelevant, we'd lose him. When we had our Collie she was just to hyper and bouncy to let kids play with her.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

sarahc said:


> plenty of kids been mauled by different breeds.What about the rotties that got the baby?Breeds owned by tossers(not suggesting all owners are).A dog is a dog.Some may have different temperements but they aren't born killers.They are turned into killers.They are born to be social.


I agree totally, but I still think that certain breeds are more likely to attack, than others, all dogs can snap or be agressive in the wrong hands.


----------



## sarahc

*dog aggression*

some are born with higher energy and dominance in every litter of pups of every breed.Ask yourself this,what breed of dog wouldn't come out unscathed if they lead the lives of some of these unfortunates.Not all pit bulls make the grade as fighters ,some can't be turned into haters.As far as I'm concerned the dda is morally wrong and there is no way I will ever agree with it.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

sarahc said:


> some are born with higher energy and dominance in every litter of pups of every breed.Ask yourself this,what breed of dog wouldn't come out unscathed if they lead the lives of some of these unfortunates.Not all pit bulls make the grade as fighters ,some can't be turned into haters.As far as I'm concerned the dda is morally wrong and there is no way I will ever agree with it.


I don't agree with it either, we need something in place though, cos a d***head with a pit bull is a lethal combination.


----------



## sarahc

*what a world*

It's all very depressing:sad:


----------



## LoveForLizards

LiamRatSnake said:


> I don't agree with it either, we need something in place though, cos a d***head with a pit bull is a lethal combination.



And you think BSL stops that? It really doesn't, and it could just be making things worse.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

LoveForLizards said:


> And you think BSL stops that? It really doesn't, and it could just be making things worse.


Didn't say it did. But we still need something in place.


----------



## LoveForLizards

LiamRatSnake said:


> Didn't say it did. But we still need something in place.


Like what? Because changing the law to 'ban' certain breeds wont work, and isn't working. Unless every inch (literally) of the UK is searched (aswell as being consistently monitored) and every Pit Bull Type, Japanese tosa, Fila Brasileiro and Dogo Argentino PTS, BSL is ineffective. May as well go back to how it used to be and just give the owners an ASBO.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

LoveForLizards said:


> Like what? Because changing the law to 'ban' certain breeds wont work, and isn't working. Unless every inch (literally) of the UK is searched (aswell as being consistently monitored) and every Pit Bull Type, Japanese tosa, Fila Brasileiro and Dogo Argentino PTS, BSL is ineffective. May as well go back to how it used to be and just give the owners an ASBO.


I haven't got a clue lol Tosa's are gorgeous, I can't understand why the other two are banned. Everywhere I read it just says they are extremely loyal ect.


----------



## sarahc

*killer dogs*



marthaMoo said:


> I have never known any other breed of dog to snap like that and de head two dogs in a matter of seconds. The dog went straight in for the kill.
> 
> .


ex racing greyhounds and foxhounds are two I can think of straight away.Just because they have had their natural instincts exploited, by and for people.


----------



## LoveForLizards

LiamRatSnake said:


> I haven't got a clue lol Tosa's are gorgeous, I can't understand why the other two are banned. Everywhere I read it just says they are extremely loyal ect.


Exactly the problem, BSL is basically just to get the government brownie points, lol. But nothing else can be done, it's practically impossible to have the "dangerous breeds" monitored, but in a way BSL is just making the situation worse. 
The other breeds, just like APBTs are known as loyal, friendly dogs in other countries but there is very few strains in this country and most (if not all) are from dog fighting strains. The Tosa is described as the Sumo Wrestler of the dog world, they were bred for dog fighting so instantly they MUST be human aggresive child eating mutants! :whistling2:


----------



## LiamRatSnake

LoveForLizards said:


> Exactly the problem, BSL is basically just to get the government brownie points, lol. But nothing else can be done, it's practically impossible to have the "dangerous breeds" monitored, but in a way BSL is just making the situation worse.
> The other breeds, just like APBTs are known as loyal, friendly dogs in other countries but there is very few strains in this country and most (if not all) are from dog fighting strains. The Tosa is described as the Sumo Wrestler of the dog world, they were bred for dog fighting so instantly they MUST be human aggresive child eating mutants! :whistling2:


Well exactly. BSL wouldn't work with the Tosas and the other two (I can't spell them so won't bother) as they aren't well known dogs, the Japanese Tosa, or crosses, could very easily be mistaken for something else, I wouldn't notice anyone walking one.


----------



## sarahc

LoveForLizards said:


> Like what? May as well go back to how it used to be and just give the owners an ASBO.


forced dog training and psychology courses might get through to some.Bit like you can get points on your license for dangerous driving or go on a course instead.At least the dogs might get a chance.The organized dog fighting rings should all get locked up,not just the pathetic sentences they receive.If it was any other sort of organised crime they would be dealt with much more harshly.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

sarahc said:


> forced dog training and psychology courses might get through to some.Bit like you can get points on your license for dangerous driving or go on a course instead.At least the dogs might get a chance.The organized dog fighting rings should all get locked up,not just the pathetic sentences they receive.If it was any other sort of organised crime they would be dealt with much more harshly.


I hear often that we're a "nation of animal lovers" yet sentences are still pathetic. Saying that, you could murder someone and be out in a few measly years.


----------



## ownedbyroxy

LiamRatSnake said:


> I wouldn't let a child touch any dog to be honest.


Why? if you have this mindset then no-one with kids should have children. 
Therefore the excuse 'the dog has to go because i'm having a baby' would appear much more than it is. 
If i chose to have another child, should i take my dogs to rescues?


----------



## LiamRatSnake

ownedbyroxy said:


> Why? if you have this mindset then no-one with kids should have children.
> Therefore the excuse 'the dog has to go because i'm having a baby' would appear much more than it is.
> If i chose to have another child, should i take my dogs to rescues?


No not at all, just simply don't let the kid play with the dog and always supoervise. I wouldn't put any child at risk becuase dogs can and do bite, even with decent owners.


----------



## ian14

lizardloverrach said:


> They are illegal, but, you can actually keep one in certain circumstances if you can prove it is not a danger to the public, its spayed/neutered, microchipped, registered and leashed/muzzled in public.


Hopefully I haven't repeated what others may have said, but the situation now is:

In 1992 it became illegal to own, breed, import, sell or advertise to sell specified dangerous breeds, one of which was the American Pit bull. An exemption was made to owning them namely they must be muzzled and on a lead at all times in public and must be spayed/neutered.
So, in 2009, unless a truly ancient dog, there are no legally held pit bulls in this country. This was the aim of the Dangerous Dogs Act, namely to eradicate the breed from the UK.
However, there are numerous pit bulls still here which have been illegaly imported (a favourite route being Ireland into Liverpool).
To counter this, and cross breeding, the legislation now refers to pit bull type, in other words any dog which looks like a pit pull could be seized. AN expert appointed by the local authority will then assess the dog and decide whther or not it is illegal under the DDA.


----------



## LoveForLizards

LiamRatSnake said:


> Well exactly. BSL wouldn't work with the Tosas and the other two (I can't spell them so won't bother) as they aren't well known dogs, the Japanese Tosa, or crosses, could very easily be mistaken for something else, I wouldn't notice anyone walking one.



I don't think many people would, I've studied various dog breeds including those considered Red and 'dangerous' including the Tosa and I'd still find it difficult to ID one tbh! They just look like small Dane-Lab mixes. lol
And considering people around here are constantly getting stopped with Bull Terriers being asked if they are pit bulls by the trained dog warden, I don't think there's much hope. :lol2:



sarahc said:


> forced dog training and psychology courses might get through to some.Bit like you can get points on your license for dangerous driving or go on a course instead.At least the dogs might get a chance.The organized dog fighting rings should all get locked up,not just the pathetic sentences they receive.If it was any other sort of organised crime they would be dealt with much more harshly.


The sort of people who would own dangerous breeds in the first place are the ones who need controlling, but unfortunately enough they would just go to a BYB that's breeding their breed of dog and get one from them and not have to go on the course. Things can only be enforced if people are willing to stay within the laws/guidelines, which people who own Dangerous Breeds do not, so it wouldn't really make any difference. On the flip side, I don't think even a lot of pet owners would bother with courses as 'most' (that term used lightly) people with unruly dogs are arrogant gits who think their dog that is running off into the sunset is perfectly trained and there is nothing wrong with their training techniques.


----------



## sarahc

*so true*



LoveForLizards said:


> On the flip side, I don't think even a lot of pet owners would bother with courses as 'most' (that term used lightly) people with unruly dogs are arrogant gits who think their dog that is running off into the sunset is perfectly trained and there is nothing wrong with their training techniques.


hit the nail on the head there.


----------



## KathyM

marthaMoo said:


> Thing is you know as well as I do an outright ban on certain breeds will solve there problem,


No I don't know that. Everything that has happened with the DDA so far has proven the opposite. Has it helped anything at all that pit bull "types" are under an outright ban? Not one bit. Has it prevented deaths and attacks by dogs? Nope. What happens when 2 rottweilers attack a baby? American bulldogs and pedigree staffs are seized an abused by police, how has that helped? Not one bit.



> say they add Staffies and Staffie types to the list.


You seem oblivious to the fact that pedigree staffies were seized as illegal dogs. Even with KC papers dogs were deemed of pitbull "type". 



> As the problem seems to be with the DDA is that most people cant tell the difference between different Bull Breeds.


Couldn't agree more. The problem they have is with the word "type". "Type" includes any dog of any parentage that fits the measurements, and is to blame for completely non-pitbull crossbreeds and pedigrees being seized. Even if someone with sense finally deems them not illegal, they've by that point spent months and months in police kennels with no family interaction - many end up so damaged and fearful they have to be euthanised anyway, regardless of them being completely legal and previously safe dogs.



> I dont think anyone is saying that keping dogs in kennels for the length of time they did was right and that dogs ended up suffering. Because that should never of happened.


Again, completely agree. I was very upset to hear of the dogs that were put in kennels that didn't comply with health and safety standards, many of them died of parvo because they weren't checked for vaccinations (or they were checked and weren't bothered). These were family pets that had not been deemed illegal in court, and who died anyway. 



> You also have to remember allot of the dogs siezed had already suffered great cruelty, deeming them unfit to live, including there puppies.


They were not the majority - I know of many more family pets with no history of aggression being seized and kept for months and abused horribly. I know of at least one dog that went in a health family pet and came out such a nervous wreck that he had to be destroyed. The police did that to him, the DDA did that.



> All the answers I've seen involve getting rid of the DDA (and still no one can tell me if that involves lifting the ban on the banned breeds already on the DDA) and replacing it with something that is going to cost a fortune to set up and run which I cant see the government agreeing to. They are going to go for the cheapest and easiest option unless someone else can actually run and fund what ever else is proposed in place of the DDA.


I can't ever see pit bulls coming off the DDA. I think it will be a miracle if more breeds aren't added, and that's as best as I can hope for. I do hope though that we have an end to the ridiculous amnesties that police forces held to be looking to do something. The amnesties took people's pets away to placate the press. That was all, they had nothing to do with the genuine seizures that went on of fighting dogs (which I still fully back). They invited people to save themselves if they thought their dog looked a bit pit bull like, then took them away and killed them. In many cases they did not even inform the owners of their legal right to go to court and save their dogs. I also hope for a day when there is a massive reduction in kennelling, allowing dogs to remain with their owners until their court cases as this over-kennelling is not only damaging potentially innocent dogs, but it is costing the public a fortune.



> I dont want these dogs in this country as its very obvious there is only a very small minority who can actually love and look after these dogs. The mass only want to use and abuse. So no, they have no place here for there own safety.


I could say the same about SBTs and many other breeds exploited by idiots to look hard. It's no different.


----------



## invertasnakes

I haven't read through the 12 pages of posts :blush: but i just wanted to put my 5 pence in. Short and sweet, Pit Bulls are gorgeous animals and if i could i would have one today. Pointless post i know :lol2: but in the meantime check this out YouTube - Ultimate Pit bull

Also i think its disgusting beyond belief that a "government" can decide what in nature should and shouldn't be allowed If this was the 18+ forum i would say a little more but i'll leave it at that


----------



## ryanr1987

someone has a tosa around here they only walk it at night stunning dog. there quite easy to distinguish from other breeds that look similar. i really dont get why dogo and filas where banned both are actaully hunting dogs.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

invertasnakes said:


> I haven't read through the 12 pages of posts :blush: but i just wanted to put my 5 pence in. Short and sweet, Pit Bulls are gorgeous animals and if i could i would have one today. Pointless post i know :lol2: but in the meantime check this out YouTube - Ultimate Pit bull
> 
> Also i think its disgusting beyond belief that a "government" can decide what in nature should and shouldn't be allowed If this was the 18+ forum i would say a little more but i'll leave it at that


The only problem with that is it is not nature...


----------



## ryanr1987

invertasnakes said:


> I haven't read through the 12 pages of posts :blush: but i just wanted to put my 5 pence in. Short and sweet, Pit Bulls are gorgeous animals and if i could i would have one today. Pointless post i know :lol2: but in the meantime check this out YouTube - Ultimate Pit bull
> 
> Also i think its disgusting beyond belief that a "government" can decide what in nature should and shouldn't be allowed If this was the 18+ forum i would say a little more but i'll leave it at that


that apbt is in amazing shape. lean,energectic and happy. pitbulls are sometimes used in weightpulling very strong for there size


----------



## sarahc

*slightly off topic*

I know it's another dirty word round here but Cesar Milan is coming over.I have booked for his seminar,he is bringing Daddy and I'm looking forward to meeting the dog more than Cesar:lol2:


----------



## KathyM

*_Puts her big kicking Doc Martens on_*

At last, my opportunity to give that horrible little spiteful chihuahua of a man a taste of his own medicine.... :lol2:


----------



## LoveForLizards

KathyM said:


> *_Puts her big kicking Doc Martens on_*
> 
> At last, my opportunity to give that horrible little spiteful chihuahua of a man a taste of his own medicine.... :lol2:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## Darlo_Gal

sarahc said:


> *ex racing greyhounds* and foxhounds are two I can think of straight away.Just because they have had their natural instincts exploited, by and for people.


While I'm not saying this would never happen I wouldn't say they were any more likely than any other breed to attack. Ex racers are not as terrible as people like to prejudge them to be.


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## hedgehog738

that vid is well cool ^^^^
sorry forgot to quote


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## sarahc

*dog aggression*



Darlo_Gal said:


> While I'm not saying this would never happen I wouldn't say they were any more likely than any other breed to attack. Ex racers are not as terrible as people like to prejudge them to be.


I didn't mean for one minute that they were in anyway ,shape or form terrible.Ex racers are a high risk to small animals just because they have been encouraged not because they are pre disposed or as a breed are inclined.I know they can be marvellous pets.There are many documented cases of foxhounds attacking peoples pets and killing them for the same reasons.Some of the small working terriers,patterdales ,irish terriers can also be dog/cat or anything small that moves aggressive.It doesn't take much to get many breeds going,just a bit of warping of the dogs natural instincts.


----------



## LiamRatSnake

sarahc said:


> I didn't mean for one minute that they were in anyway ,shape or form terrible.Ex racers are a high risk to small animals just because they have been encouraged not because they are pre disposed or as a breed are inclined.I know they can be marvellous pets.There are many documented cases of foxhounds attacking peoples pets and killing them for the same reasons.Some of the small working terriers,patterdales ,irish terriers can also be dog/cat or anything small that moves aggressive.It doesn't take much to get many breeds going,just a bit of warping of the dogs natural instincts.


My Dad's ex racer was an amazing dog, but given half the chance it would chase and kill cats, rabbits ect (Not that it did get the chance), but it killed dozens of wild pheasent, rabbits, grouse, quail ect ect.


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## diamondlil

sarahc said:


> I didn't mean for one minute that they were in anyway ,shape or form terrible.Ex racers are a high risk to small animals just because they have been encouraged not because they are pre disposed or as a breed are inclined.I know they can be marvellous pets.There are many documented cases of foxhounds attacking peoples pets and killing them for the same reasons.Some of the small working terriers,patterdales ,irish terriers can also be dog/cat or anything small that moves aggressive.It doesn't take much to get many breeds going,just a bit of warping of the dogs natural instincts.


What do you mean by 'warping'? It could actually be argued that training a working breed of terrier not to chase all small furries is warping it's instincts, if you think about it.


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## KathyM

Darlo_Gal said:


> While I'm not saying this would never happen I wouldn't say they were any more likely than any other breed to attack. Ex racers are not as terrible as people like to prejudge them to be.


That's the point though? If I was to go on my personal experience, greyhounds would be the top of the list in aggression stakes, followed by JRTs (of which I have one, a cross) and pit bulls would be at the very bottom. I wouldn't personally say a bad word against any of them. 

Only difference is the news teams don't turn up at your door when your retired greyhound pins a kid down by it's face and uses it as a ragdoll, landing the kid in hospital.


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## Darlo_Gal

Like I said I would never say it wouldn't happen, my boy wouldn't never be allowed unmuzzled whilst out, while he is fab with other dogs large or small he is not a fan of cats...however I have rehomed many greyhounds this year and whilst I don't have exact figures I would say maybe 18-20 have been rehomed with other animals including (off the top of my head) border terriers, mastiffs, cats and one to a farm with sheep, a cat, chickens and a ferret!


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## longhaircavies

God that was some reading my eyes are feeling very strained. I do agree with what lots of you are saying.
Everyone has there opinions and i think everyone has the right to say their bit without people jumping on them. 
I have a presa which yes was bred as a fighting breed by mixing mastiffs and original fighting breeds and i can totaly see peoples points but really in the right hands they are a lovelly breed, yes you have to be on top of them which is the case for alot of mollossa breeds(mastiffs, boxers, bulldogs ect) but if trained and socialised at a young age they are fine, unlike the pitt they havent been used for fighting for some time now so it in a way has been breed out of them more than in the pitt as they are still widely used for this barbaric so called sport, as someone has already said the pitt is dangerous because of its continous over breeding and breeding to be a way for the knobs on the street to have a statous simble and well their continuing to be breed this way im affraid they will never change. Dont get me wrong i think they are a lovelly breed and in most case are very people friendly, its us people that made them the way they are and we are continuing to make sure they stay that way with the chavey tossers that think its cool to have a dog that is 'hard'. Its a really shame but what some people have said on here is right they can be very unpredictable and an unpredictable dog no matter what the breed is unsafe. 
I do believe they have been made illigal not just to protect people but to try and protect them aswell, although it really hasnt worked, its abit like drugs if they made legal would we see people still wanting to use them to seem bad and big to there mates that their doing something ilegal, i dont know. 
Ive said just a little how i feel but hey what do my view count, all can say is everyone should be entiteled to their view without getting slatting, it would be boring if we all agrees with each other wouldnt it and by aguing about it isnt going to make anything any better is it.


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## longhaircavies

Forgot to ad i was badly attact by a collie when i was 3 and had to stay in hospital for a week and had 28 stiches, they are a very unpredictable breed and again should only go to the right people that will work them, but as someone has said we dont here about these being a dangeous breed do we?! An where are the stories in papers? Just because of the intelergence they have they are looked upon as a great breed.


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## sarahc

*dog aggression*



diamondlil said:


> What do you mean by 'warping'? It could actually be argued that training a working breed of terrier not to chase all small furries is warping it's instincts, if you think about it.


It could,yes.I wasn't trying to expand the debate into working dogs,probably not the best illustration.The bottom line of what I meant was that it's the human not canine element that makes the difference.If you have a pup and encourage it in some behaviour ,deliberately or not then you shape its behaviour.


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## gazz

> Thing is you know as well as I do an outright ban on certain breeds will solve there problem.


_Nop! you have to ban all dogs every one.Ban a dog breed they will just replace it with another.Apbt is't surpose to be in the UK yet they are so what dose that tell you ? that's right "pointless".First you'll have to ban ALL mastsiff types,Bulldog type.Even the little French bulldog coz it can be use to make new dog of the breeds they banned.Coz sadly there allways away.French bull X Terrier = bull & terrier then jusy add another breed say Dobbie bit of work and done.Even all the herding breeds that could be use on people instead of sheep,cattle'etc like German shepherd,Beligum shepherd,Collie,Oz Kelpie,Oz Cattle dog'etc.There are breeds out there the goverment doesn't even know about so if they was imported to name one the Thai ridge back.A really old pure breed can be trace way back.Infact some put in the same league as Dingo.Coz they where tribe dogs and man had very little to do with there creation like the dingo and New Guinea singing dog'etc.These are infact in the UK._

_Thai ridge back._
_







_


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## hedgehog738

gazz said:


> _Nop! you have to ban all dogs every one.Ban a dog breed they will just replace it with another.Apbt is't surpose to be in the UK yet they are so what dose that tell you ? that's right "pointless".First you'll have to ban ALL mastsiff types,Bulldog type.Even the little Frech bulldog coz it can be use to make new dog of the breeds they banned.Coz sadly there allways away.French bull X Terrier = bull & terrier then jusy add another breed say Dobbie bit of work and done.Even all the herding breeds that could be use on people instead of sheep,cattle'etc like German shepherd,Beligum shepherd,Collie,Oz Kelpie,Oz Cattle dog'etc.There are breeds out there the goverment doesn't even know about so if they was imported to name one the Thai ridge back.A really old pure breed can be trace way back.Infact some put in the same league as Dingo.Coz they where tribe dogs and man had very little to do with there creation like the dingo and New Guinea singing dog'etc.These are infact in the UK._
> 
> _Thai ridge back._
> _image_



loving that dog!


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## Tillies reptile rescue

longhaircavies said:


> I do believe they have been made illigal not just to protect people but to try and protect them aswell, although it really hasnt worked, its abit like drugs if they made legal would we see people still wanting to use them to seem bad and big to there mates that their doing something ilegal, i dont know.
> .


100% agree with this


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## Daniel1

gazz said:


> _There are breeds out there the goverment doesn't even know about so if they was imported to name one the Thai ridge back.A really old pure breed can be trace way back.Infact some put in the same league as Dingo.Coz they where tribe dogs and man had very little to do with there creation like the dingo and New Guinea singing dog'etc.These are infact in the UK._
> 
> _Thai ridge back._
> _image_


Heres another old breed Chongquing Dog 







http://www.loveofbreeds.com/Promo/2007713133426195.jpg


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## Tazer

"Breaking: Britain’s Ban on Pit Bulls Extended to Previously Legal Breeds
March 26, 2009 by Alison Green
An anti breed specific legislation group has reacted in horror to the confirmation that previously legal dog breeds and cross breeds are to be caught up in the net designed to outlaw ‘Pit Bull Terrier type dogs’.
Legislators in the UK have put together a piece of law which will ban previously legal breeds and cross breeds. The bill will, it is promised, see Britain free from dog attacks by ‘the dangerous dog breeds’.
Legislators behind the bill claim it will “eradicate the more dangerous dogs that can inflict injury upon children” and will better protect the public from serious, fatal dog attacks. They go on to set out the grounds of the new bill and exactly which dogs could fall foul of the new legislation.
Any dog weighing in excess of 20kgs.
Any dog in excess of 16” of height to the shoulder.
Dogs carrying liver, black, white or brindle markings.
The bill will not take in to account parentage, breed or DNA profiles. Any dog weighing over 20kgs or taller than 16” to the shoulder could be banned. It is acts regardless of the behaviour exhibited by the dog meaning any dog that fits the criteria above will be in breach of the new bill. Any dog who falls within the above criteria must be neutered, tattooed, chipped and kept on lead and muzzled at all times in public. Owners must also ensure their dog is covered by special third party liability insurance.
The bill also makes it illegal to be in possession of, sell, give away, allow to stray or advertise an un-exempted dog fitting the illegal criteria. Owners in breach of the law will find themselves liable for prosecution, which could lead to a fine, criminal record and up to six months in prison. The dog will also be seized and destroyed.
With the bill finalised the authorities will spend millions of pounds building up teams to enforce the law and ensure dangerous dogs are taken and destroyed. For those who may be affected by the new legislation the following information may be useful.
Still reading?
I’ll bet you are.
The bill I’m talking about is actually the 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act. It’s not new. We’ve had it for a while. And I apologise if it caused you to gulp as a result of the manner in which I presented it.
Your dogs aren’t illegal. Well not most of them anyway. Some of you may have a dog that someone pushes into “pit bull type” and sadly you’re not safe.
But I am willing to bet some people’s hearts were a flutter. Welcome to the world of anyone who owns a dog that *might* catch the attention of an over zealous DDA enforcer who sees a large, shall we say for example, Staffy x Boxer and decides he’d better nab it and get it off the streets ‘just in case’.
If that seems cruel, indiscrimnate and likely to tear people’s lives apart, it’s because it is and it does.
So technically, and make no mistake about this, previously legal (and still legal) breeds and cross breeds ARE being caught up in the vicious ‘pit bull net’.
How cruel it is to tell people their dog’s illegal because it’s a bit tall or a bit heavy. But remember that lump you had in your throat for a moment back then, thinking it might be your dog about to get caught in the DDA dragnet, that’s the daily life for many owners of perfectly legal dogs as they live in fear. Fear about walking their dog. Fear about taking their dog to the vets. Fear every time the door is knocked. And why? For no other reason other than they own a dog which happens to look a certain way.
Good people, just like you, the person reading this, have their dogs removed because it doesn’t look right. You may be a little bit hacked off at me right about now but you know what? Be grateful you got a second chance to own your pet without fear. BSL is similar to cancer. It spreads. If you want to keep a hold of your feeling of security help repeal the law. It’s not your dog today and in all probability it won’t be your dog tomorrow, but someone’s dog is going to be taken and someone else’s dog will lose its life - purely because of how it looks. This can’t go on.
BSL HAS GOT TO GO AND GO NOW!"

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives...-for-breed-specific-legislation-to-go-go-now/


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## Tazer

I don't know, how anyone can support a law, that bans an animal on its appearance, ridiculas. 

The dangerous dogs act, does not work, dog attacks have increased, and not even the people who created it, will come out to defend it, says a lot doesn't it. It prohibbits those with the right experience, and understanding from owning these breeds, whilst making them more desirable to those who shouldn't have them. 

So, lets say for a moment, the ban worked, there were now no pitbull types in the uk, so what do you think will happen:

1. The idiots who would have previously owned them, decide to change their ways, and become outstanding members of society, or...
2. They move on to another breed, say the staffy, get that banned, then move on to rotty's, gsds, akitas, mastiffs, etc. So, the question is, where do you draw the line, should we just keep banning breeds because of a few idiots, until all we have left are westy's, and jrt's?. 

I bet, most of you people, who support bsl like this, wouldn't be so happy, if it was your breed, being demonised, and banned would you?.


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## sarahc

*dda*



Tazer said:


> I don't know, how anyone can support a law, that bans an animal on its appearance its ridiculous
> .


thats it in a nut shell for me.Oh and my mum has already had two stafford cross french bulldogs in as rescues.People looking for the next money spinner grrrr.


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## marthaMoo

Ah.... Alison Green, thats a name from the past...lol


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## LisaLQ

This thread is very sad reading, seeing how many ignorant comments there have been (by the usual suspect...s).

I own a mastiff breed, people dont think that their dogs could be classed as type, I have a dane but I know of danes and crosses seized as pitbull "type", and know that if some people (like some of those on this thread) had their way, my dog would be banned.

I tell you - I'd rather lie covered in raw steak in a room with Blu and 20 pitbulls, than handle any of the snappy lapdogs some people think are safer and let get away with bad behaviour because at their size it's "cute" or "unnecessary".

The biggest culprit of dog bites? The common mongrel. See anyone baying for their blood?

Interesting reading from a quick google search:
Dog Bite Statistics – Are We Being Lied to by Politicians With a Hidden ‘Dangerous Dog’ Agenda?

Michele Hanson on agressive dogs | World news | The Guardian

Dangerous Breeds - Dog Bite Claims

The last one says:



> A recent study carried out on 6,000 dogs and their owners found out 33 of the most aggressive dogs, and also those which have good temperaments. The study involved collecting data from two different groups. The first group consisted of 11 different breeds and the second was an online survey mainly involving owners, including 33 breeds. The conclusions from both groups were similar. It looked at the different types of aggression such as towards other dogs, towards strangers and towards owners. Some of the results were surprising, below are the top ten most aggressive breed:
> 
> Dachshunds
> Chihuahua
> Jack Russell
> Australian Cattle Dog
> Cocker Spaniel
> Beagle
> Border Collie
> Pit Bull Terrier
> Great Dane
> English Springer Spaniel
> The Dachshund, otherwise known as the Sausage dog, was originally bred to hunt badgers. They came out as the most aggressive breed with 1 in 5 reported to have bitten or tried to bite a stranger and 1 in 12 snapping at their owners.


Lets ban daschunds! :whip:


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## LoveForLizards

LisaLQ said:


> Lets ban daschunds! :whip:


Well I'm going to get shot down for this but IMO Dachshunds SHOULD be banned, or at least have tighter legislations on them, they serve no purpose, carry high risks and are a liability. They were never bred for temperament, they were bred so they could work badger sets and thus the long back and unstable temperament so many carry. Unfortunately this is just one of the breed traits.


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## LoveForLizards

> A recent study carried out on 6,000 dogs and their owners found out 33 of the most aggressive dogs, and also those which have good temperaments. The study involved collecting data from two different groups. The first group consisted of 11 different breeds and the second was an online survey mainly involving owners, including 33 breeds. The conclusions from both groups were similar. It looked at the different types of aggression such as towards other dogs, towards strangers and towards owners. Some of the results were surprising, below are the top ten most aggressive breed:
> 
> Dachshunds
> Chihuahua
> *Jack Russell*
> *Australian Cattle Dog*
> *Cocker Spaniel*
> *Beagle*
> *Border Collie*
> Pit Bull Terrier
> Great Dane
> *English Springer Spaniel*
> The Dachshund, otherwise known as the Sausage dog, was originally bred to hunt badgers. They came out as the most aggressive breed with 1 in 5 reported to have bitten or tried to bite a stranger and 1 in 12 snapping at their owners.


On the other hand it would be interesting to know how many pet V working dogs of the highlighted breeds were tested. Just a little strange that some of the dogs that were bred for a stable, sound temperament are up their and even stranger that they are some of the top working breeds that are usually treated as 'lap dogs' with a 20 minute dash around the garden and that is all that is expected of them. :whistling2:


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## LisaLQ

Totally agree. IMO collies and spaniels (and some other working breeds) need working homes - if not actual work that they were bred for, then agility and obedience and plenty of exercise. The majority do not receive this, and this is why collies and their crosses (and GSDs for example) are so commonly found in rescue.

"Oh he was nipping at our ankles"
"How much exercise was he getting?"
"One walk a day if the weather was nice"
"What training has he had?"
"Collies dont need training, they're already clever dogs"

(example)


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## Amazon29

I could of quoted so much off here! I have had many foster dogs that were growling and snapping at people. 1 exsample is a British bull called Rosie, for the 1st few days she was a right nasty little madam. I didnt push her to come to me, I let her have her tantrum and ignored the bad behaviour. When Rosie relised that she was in a safe place and not getting hit, or shouted at- she turned into a wonderfull dog. This girl had fear aggression and just needed to be treated kindley. She would follow me around the house wagging her stump and she never growled at me again.
When people say 'they are animals', yes they are- but they seem to have more sence then some people! Banning breeds is not the answer- banning breeding is. I think that breeders should be assessed along with their dogs and there should only be a certain number of breeders per breed.
The problem we have with Staffies is out of controll. They are being PTS on a mass scale and yet people still keep breeding their dogs.
The 'Lady' that says she is an animal lover and thinks that some breeds should 'be wiped off the face of the earth' needs to understand that in most cases it IS the owners fault if their dog 'attacks' or 'bites'. 
Different breeds to carry certain traits, my Shar Pei sometimes snapps at strangers, but he is great with people he knows. Alot of them are like this.
When I first had him at 2 yrs, he bit me to but I did'nt cart him off to the vet to be PTS. He also likes some dogs, and doesnt like others... same as people. We dont all like each other.

PIT BULL- i have been looking into how to register a pit on the exsempion list to save the life of and 11 month old red nose. This boy is sweet, shy and been given up by some B*****D as he doesnt want to fight. Maybe if we punished people for fighting dogs in a more harsh way, the fighting would be reduced. It seems its always going to be the dogs that suffer....


----------



## ian14

> PIT BULL- i have been looking into how to register a pit on the exsempion list to save the life of and 11 month old red nose. This boy is sweet, shy and been given up by some B*****D as he doesnt want to fight. Maybe if we punished people for fighting dogs in a more harsh way, the fighting would be reduced. It seems its always going to be the dogs that suffer....


Given that the DDA required all pit bulls to be neutered/spayed, that selling them is illegal as is importing, I think you will find that it will be impossible. There is no "exemption" list - the act simply provided certain requirements to be allowed to legally keep them. As this came in 17 years ago, and this is an 11 month old dog, there will be some very difficult questions asked if you were to approach the authorities.


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## Amazon29

.....


----------



## Amazon29

ian14 said:


> Given that the DDA required all pit bulls to be neutered/spayed, that selling them is illegal as is importing, I think you will find that it will be impossible. There is no "exemption" list - the act simply provided certain requirements to be allowed to legally keep them. As this came in 17 years ago, and this is an 11 month old dog, there will be some very difficult questions asked if you were to approach the authorities.


I read that there were 280 or there abouts- dogs put on the list last year. I will have to keep looking into it. Not sure where the dog was breed, I just know I dont want him destroyed if he can have a chance at life.

*Dont know why my post came up twice???*


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## marthaMoo

Amazon29 said:


> PIT BULL- i have been looking into how to register a pit on the exsempion list to save the life of and 11 month old red nose. This boy is sweet, shy and been given up by some B*****D as he doesnt want to fight. Maybe if we punished people for fighting dogs in a more harsh way, the fighting would be reduced. It seems its always going to be the dogs that suffer....


You would need to contact Amanda 

http://www.endangereddogs.com/


----------



## KathyM

marthaMoo said:


> You would need to contact Amanda
> 
> Endangered Dogs Defence and Rescue - Helping Dogs In Need


Agreed, or Mel at  The Bull Breed Advisory Service - Home

Or Mel P and others here: Deed Not Breed - Deed Not Breed Contacts


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## KathyM

ian14 said:


> Given that the DDA required all pit bulls to be neutered/spayed, that selling them is illegal as is importing, I think you will find that it will be impossible. There is no "exemption" list - the act simply provided certain requirements to be allowed to legally keep them. As this came in 17 years ago, and this is an 11 month old dog, there will be some very difficult questions asked if you were to approach the authorities.


Of course there is a register, what do you think the details of these exempt and registered dogs is on? You do have to go through the courts to get on it though which is why the contacts given are SO helpful, Deed Not Breed in particular has helped many many people with the court process, including costs in some cases.


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## Amazon29

It seems that I need to find this baby boy a home... nothing to do with him. He is not keen on the cats! and I have concidered rehoming them, but not fair on them either... really tough desision.


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## marthaMoo

Then you need to contact the people above as they also do rehoming : )


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## KathyM

Yes, if you believe he might be of type, I would not be homing him without their direct input. Moving dogs of type legally is complicated and they will know the routine.


----------



## ian14

KathyM said:


> Of course there is a register, what do you think the details of these exempt and registered dogs is on? You do have to go through the courts to get on it though which is why the contacts given are SO helpful, Deed Not Breed in particular has helped many many people with the court process, including costs in some cases.


You learn something new every day!

This is the relevant exemption:

The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 imposed restrictions on keeping dogs which are a danger to the public. Section 1 makes it an offence to keep a fighting dog, but there are two exceptions and an exemption scheme. It states:

1(3) No person shall have any dog to which this section applies in his possession or custody except - 
(a) in pursuance of the power of seizure; OR
(b) in accordance with an order for its destruction under the subsequent provisions of this Act.​*Notes*
(i) The Dangerous Dogs Compensation & Exemption Schemes Order 1991 allows ownership of fighting dogs if the following conditions are complied with -
(The dog must have a certificate of exemption from the Index of Exempted Dogs (phone 07000 783651); AND
The holder of such a certificate must comply with the following requirements -
(a) the dog must be kept in secure conditions whilst at home, so that it cannot escape;
(b) the dog must be muzzled and kept on a lead when in a public place, by someone at least 16 years old;
(c) the keeper of the dog, if asked by a police officer or local authority officer (Dog Warden), must show the certificate of exemption, display the dog's tattoo and allow the implanted transponder to be read;
(d) valid third party insurance must be in force;
(e) the Index of Exempted Dogs must be informed of any address where the dog is to be kept for longer than 30 days.​The problem arises here however:

1(2) No person shall 
(a) breed, or breed from, a dog to which this section applies;
*(b) sell or exchange such a dog or offer, or expose such a dog for sale or exchange;
(c) make or offer to make a gift of such a dog or expose such a dog as a gift;
*(d) allow such a dog of which he is the owner or for the time being in charge, to be in a public place without being muzzled and kept on a lead; OR
(e) abandon such a dog of which he is the owner or, being the owner or for the time being in charge of such a dog, allow it to stray .​


----------



## fenwoman

ian14 said:


> You learn something new every day!
> 
> This is the relevant exemption:
> 
> The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 imposed restrictions on keeping dogs which are a danger to the public. Section 1 makes it an offence to keep a fighting dog, but there are two exceptions and an exemption scheme. It states:
> 
> 1(3) No person shall have any dog to which this section applies in his possession or custody except - (a) in pursuance of the power of seizure; OR
> (b) in accordance with an order for its destruction under the subsequent provisions of this Act.​*Notes*
> (i) The Dangerous Dogs Compensation & Exemption Schemes Order 1991 allows ownership of fighting dogs if the following conditions are complied with -(The dog must have a certificate of exemption from the Index of Exempted Dogs (phone 07000 783651); AND
> The holder of such a certificate must comply with the following requirements -(a) the dog must be kept in secure conditions whilst at home, so that it cannot escape;
> (b) the dog must be muzzled and kept on a lead when in a public place, by someone at least 16 years old;
> (c) the keeper of the dog, if asked by a police officer or local authority officer (Dog Warden), must show the certificate of exemption, display the dog's tattoo and allow the implanted transponder to be read;
> (d) valid third party insurance must be in force;
> (e) the Index of Exempted Dogs must be informed of any address where the dog is to be kept for longer than 30 days.​The problem arises here however:
> 
> 1(2) No person shall (a) breed, or breed from, a dog to which this section applies;
> *(b) sell or exchange such a dog or offer, or expose such a dog for sale or exchange;
> (c) make or offer to make a gift of such a dog or expose such a dog as a gift;
> *(d) allow such a dog of which he is the owner or for the time being in charge, to be in a public place without being muzzled and kept on a lead; OR
> (e) abandon such a dog of which he is the owner or, being the owner or for the time being in charge of such a dog, allow it to stray .​



Exactly. It is still illegal to own one of these things however much the 'deed not breed' supporters wish it otherwise. I for one, wish it was enforced more fervently.


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## ryanr1987

there's no way you can own legally except the ones that were still left at the time of the ban which were neutered etc


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## KathyM

Yes there is, the register is there and people can go through the courts and comply with the regulations - there is no guarantee that they will get their dog back though. 

Any dogs on the register from the days when the DDA was brought in are all dead, it was 1990! :lol2:


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## BabyBlonde

hey I just read the first few messages here but i never knew they were illegal??? My mate has a female pit bull and she is an ace dog! I just rang her and told r about this and she said she dit know her dog was illegal and is worried now. The dog pure ace though!


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## LisaLQ

Is she sure it's a pitbull? I find it unlikely that someone would have them and not know, as they're sold as status symbols so the breeder would probably have said something : victory:

I hope she doesnt panic and ring the police about her rights. They're lying tossbags and will tell her her only option is to give them the dog and have it put down.


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## BabyBlonde

she got the dog from her uncle so no idea really. Oh she would never give her up anyway, the dog would hurt a fly.


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## constrictor24

pitbulls are great dogs they shouldnt be blamed for what people do to them


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## hedgehog738

there is some terrible pics on google images


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## fenwoman

hedgehog738 said:


> there is some terrible pics on google images


 There 'are' some terrible pic's or, there 'is' a terrible pic'.


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## hedgehog738

bump..


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## queenquack

FIGHT BSL!!!! its a misguided cruel law that victomises innoscent dogs. by illegalisng them they make the scum that would train them to fight want them all the more.

a long legged staff looks like a damn pit bull. wen they gunna ban them? oh i heard a mastiff hav a grow lets kill all them too. when will the madness end???

grrrrrr


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## hedgehog738

bump :2thumb:


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## 206vic

it is not illegal to own an american pit bull terrier in england. but was is not allowed is to breed from them. anyone who owns one must have it either spayed or castrated, depending on dog or bitch, and it must be muzzled in public places. any dog that looks similar to a staffordshire bull terrier is either a crossbreed or a bad specimen of the breed as pit bulls are much bigger, heaftier dogs. anyone who is looking to buy a dog of the staff, pit type please be warned of people selling 'american staffordshire bull terriers' as they really mean pit bull and they have broken the law by breeding them! but may i also add that pit bulls and staffies, brought up properly, are fantastic dogs and i would trust their temperament more than some other breeds. NO BREED OF DOG SHOULD EVER BE LEFT ALONE WITH CHILDREN, *NONE!* if a dog hears high pitched screatching or screaming it is their instinct to think that whats making that noise is in distress and should be put out of its misery. if only people learnt about the wild behaviour of all animals before getting them then we would have far less problems.


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## pacman frogz

pitbulls only behive the why ther are is how ther rised up so do not blame the breed blame the peple who do this s***!! i hate dog fighting i hate it!! and i hope you guys hate it to.


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## rotty

206vic said:


> it is not illegal to own an american pit bull terrier in england. but was is not allowed is to breed from them. anyone who owns one must have it either spayed or castrated, depending on dog or bitch, and it must be muzzled in public places. any dog that looks similar to a staffordshire bull terrier is either a crossbreed or a bad specimen of the breed as pit bulls are much bigger, heaftier dogs. anyone who is looking to buy a dog of the staff, pit type please be warned of people selling 'american staffordshire bull terriers' as they really mean pit bull and they have broken the law by breeding them! but may i also add that pit bulls and staffies, brought up properly, are fantastic dogs and i would trust their temperament more than some other breeds. NO BREED OF DOG SHOULD EVER BE LEFT ALONE WITH CHILDREN, *NONE!* if a dog hears high pitched screatching or screaming it is their instinct to think that whats making that noise is in distress and should be put out of its misery. if only people learnt about the wild behaviour of all animals before getting them then we would have far less problems.



Not all pitbulls are the same,here is a link to one of best known ones of recent years.
Dog profile for Lil Bit, a female American Pit Bull Terrier


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## KathyM

206vic said:


> it is not illegal to own an american pit bull terrier in england.


I am afraid you are wrong there, it *is* illegal to own them. Anyone caught with one faces their dog being seized and destroyed. In some cases the courts will allow you to have your dog put on the register under certain conditions...



> but was is not allowed is to breed from them. anyone who owns one must have it either spayed or castrated, depending on dog or bitch, and it must be muzzled in public places.


To be allowed to do that, they have to have been through the courts and had the dog deemed safe and allowed on the register. It's not just a case of Tom, Dick or Harry deciding if he neuters his dog and puts it on a lead it's legal, that is false information, and could land people in a lot of legal trouble. For a dog to be allowed on the register an owner has to go through the courts, admit to owning an illegal dog, then follow the restrictions (if the dog is allowed to return to them after assessment), which include neutering and tattooing the dog, and keeping him onlead and muzzled when on public property. I believe it also means never passing on the dog to another home (which is where it becomes difficult for rescues).


----------



## 206vic

Not all pitbulls are the same,here is a link to one of best known ones of recent years.
Dog profile for Lil Bit, a female American Pit Bull Terrier

that dog is *NOT* a full pit bull!

In some cases the courts will allow you to have your dog put on the register under certain conditions...
so in which case it is possible to own one. so im not wrong.



which include neutering and tattooing the dog, and keeping him onlead and muzzled when on public property.

which apart from the tatooing is what i said. not wrong again!!

:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:


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## KathyM

You said it was "legal" to keep one as long as you had it neutered and kept it onlead/muzzled. That simply is not the case and by saying so, you make people think it's safe to do so. When you've known people and watched cases where their family pets have been seized and destroyed because they believed that, you'll realise how important wording is.

It is NOT legal to own a pitbull. If you are caught, the dog stands a very good chance of being killed. If you are VERY lucky and have someone like Roger Mugford and DNB on your side then your dog might live. Either way it is still a criminal act that will go on your record.

ETA: Even if you buy a pitbull, follow all the restrictions to the T and haven't been through the courts and admitted owning a dangerous dog and had the courts allow it to come home to you, you are breaking the law.


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## 206vic

the dogs themselves arent f:censor:ing dangerous its their owners. cant people get that into their thick skulls!!

what ur saying is that its illegal but the law might let u do it anyway. whatever........... hey a serial killer is breaking the law but on this occasion we'll let him do it..........i dont think so


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## KathyM

I didn't write the DDA, nor do I agree with it, you're shooting the messenger. : victory:


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## gazz

206vic said:


> Not all pitbulls are the same,here is a link to one of best known ones of recent years.
> Dog profile for Lil Bit, a female American Pit Bull Terrier
> 
> that dog is *NOT* a full pit bull!


That dog is pit bull what it not is an American pit bull terrier.People get lost between American pit bull terrier and pit bull.

As the saying goes.An American pit bull terrier is a pit bull.But not all pit bulls are American pit bull terriers.


American pit bull terrier a pure dog breed long legged,Lean,muscular.


And pit bulls and sometime APBT get called pit bulls.But pit bulls are bull terrier/bulldog/masstiff cross breed dogs and don't even ned to have APBT blood so not all pit bulls are illegal.In the UK we tend to call APBT's,Pit bulls and people in the UK call there's bull terrier/bull dog/mastiff cross breed dogs Pit bulls,Pit bull types so there all bleded together noone knows what to call what.In USA APBT X American bull dog,APBT X Amstaff,Amstaff x American bull dog x Amstaff'etc'etc'etc.Are known as Pit bulls.If it's a bull terrier/bulldog/mastiff cross dog that "In who evers opinion" can hold it's own in a ring it's a pit bull.As a result comeing from mixed breeds.Pit bulls come in all differant shape and sizes.


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## 206vic

gazz said:


> That dog is pit bull what it not is an American pit bull terrier.People get lost between American pit bull terrier and pit bull.
> 
> As the saying goes.An American pit bull terrier is a pit bull.But not all pit bulls are American pit bull terriers.
> 
> 
> American pit bull terrier a pure dog breed long legged,Lean,muscular.
> 
> 
> And pit bulls and sometime APBT get called pit bulls.But pit bulls are bull terrier/bulldog/masstiff cross breed dogs and don't even ned to have APBT blood so not all pit bulls are illegal.In the UK we tend to call APBT's,Pit bulls and people in the uk call there's bull terrier/bull dog/mastiff cross breed dogs Pit bulls,Pit bull types so there all bleded together noone knows what to call what.In USA APBT X American bull dog,APBT X Amstaff,Amstaff x American bull dog x Amstaff'etc'etc'etc.Are known as Pit bulls.If it's a bull terrier/bulldog/mastiff cross dog that "In who evers opinion" can hold it's own in a ring it's a pit bull.As a result comeing from mixed breed pit bulls come in all differant shape and sizes.


there same bloody dog. cross breeds are not called pit bulls at all. WILL EVERYBODY DO ME A FAVOUR AND RESEARCH FROM A PROPER SOURCE ABOUT AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS AND NOT FROM A PICTURE OF SOMEONES DOG THEYVE FOUND ON THE INTERNET WHERE THEY CLAIM IT TO BE A PIT BULL COS THEY ARE CHATTING POO!!! a crossbreed is simply a crossbreed not matter what bull breeds its got behind it. oh and a APBT X am staff is a pure american pit bull terrier cos they ae the same dog


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## LisaLQ

No they're not. Sigh.

Bull and Terrier Breeds (American Staffordshire Terrier, Pit bull terrier, Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier)

American Staffordshire Terrier Information and Pictures


----------



## gazz

206vic said:


> there same bloody dog. cross breeds are not called pit bulls at all. WILL EVERYBODY DO ME A FAVOUR AND RESEARCH FROM A PROPER SOURCE ABOUT AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS AND NOT FROM A PICTURE OF SOMEONES DOG THEYVE FOUND ON THE INTERNET WHERE THEY CLAIM IT TO BE A PIT BULL COS THEY ARE CHATTING POO!!! a crossbreed is simply a crossbreed not matter what bull breeds its got behind it. oh and a APBT X am staff is a pure american pit bull terrier cos they ae the same dog


APBT and a Amstaff aren't the same breed of dog.A APBT is one breed and a Amstaff has staffordshire bull terier blood that was breed into APBT at a later date for the purpose of showing.AKC wouldn't take pure APBT for the show ring this is well known.That's how you know a APBT and a Amstaff aren't the same breed of dog.UK Staffordshire bull terrier blood was interduced into the APBT with a bit of tinkering to get the AKC to take them.

American pit bull terrier a pure dog breed long legged,Lean,muscular.

Amstaff a pure dog breed(younger than the APBT)tall not long legged,bullyer,muscular.


----------



## KathyM

gazz said:


> And pit bulls and sometime APBT get called pit bulls.But pit bulls are bull terrier/bulldog/masstiff cross breed dogs and don't even ned to have APBT blood so not all pit bulls are illegal..


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you - not because I don't think it makes sense (it very much does!), but because the law is non-sensical in these cases and any dog that fits the measurements is legally classed as an illegal pit bull "type" dog. A boxer x staff might seem to us perfectly legal - there is no APBT blood in there, but because of the poorly thought out and completely unworkable "type" loophole, if that dog (or next door's poodle even) fits the measurements (unlikely for the poodle lol) then it is considered in legal terms an illegal dog. Even pedigree staffies with papers have been seized and destroyed. So all pit bulls in this country, regardless of lineage, are illegal. I do not agree with it, but that is the case.


----------



## gazz

KathyM said:


> I'm afraid I have to disagree with you - not because I don't think it makes sense (it very much does!), but because the law is non-sensical in these cases and any dog that fits the measurements is legally classed as an illegal pit bull "type" dog. A boxer x staff might seem to us perfectly legal - there is no APBT blood in there, but because of the poorly thought out and completely unworkable "type" loophole, if that dog (or next door's poodle even) fits the measurements (unlikely for the poodle lol) then it is considered in legal terms an illegal dog. Even pedigree staffies with papers have been seized and destroyed. So all pit bulls in this country, regardless of lineage, are illegal. I do not agree with it, but that is the case.


I did more mean not illegal in are sence of the breed in it like you said a boxer x staffie made of two legal breeds.Not of the new sence that the goverment seem to back.In that if it look illegal it's illegal not matter what breed is in it blood.


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## KathyM

Yeah, the law completely sucks! I can see the reasoning behind it (although it is far too vague and open to interpretation), to prevent people recreating them, but it's just an excuse for a witch hunt as we saw with the Liverpool "amnesties" and the Bradford seizures. Unfortunately the people in charge of acting out the law wouldn't know a dangerous dog from a hole in their arse. :lol2:

ETA: for the newcomers to the thread, interesting factlet. Section 1 of the DDA is the only law in our legal system where the onus of proof is reversed and the owner (and dog) is presumed guilty until proven innocent. And that's not personal reflection, that's seriously how they do it legally. Someone has to prove their dog is NOT a pit bull, not the other way round (and as I've said in previous posts, pedigree papers are not considered proof).


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## rifkygirl

The Uk is way to open for all sorts of things being brought in, the main one being Ireland, and until these passages are stopped, everything is getting through. Still what difference does it make anyway, if they cant get hold of pittbulls or x's, they have started on the mastiff breed now to start fighting with. And when they've finished with that breed im sure they will move onto another. It's not the breed that needs to be stopped it's the people. IMO I think all dogs should be made to be speyed/neutered to stop breeding, unless they are a licensed/registered breeder. And *ALL* breeds of dogs should be micro chipped to ensure that the owner takes full responsibility of his animal.


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## rotty

206vic said:


> Not all pitbulls are the same,here is a link to one of best known ones of recent years.
> Dog profile for Lil Bit, a female American Pit Bull Terrier
> 
> that dog is *NOT* a full pit bull!
> 
> would you like to tell me what it is then?,that dog has a long pedigree stating that it is a "pitbull".Just because it dosent conform to what YOU think a "pitbull" should look like dosent make you correct.
> 
> In some cases the courts will allow you to have your dog put on the register under certain conditions...
> so in which case it is possible to own one. so im not wrong.
> 
> You also forgot to add that in some cases the court can issue a destruction order on your dog and a fine/jail time on you.
> 
> 
> 
> which include neutering and tattooing the dog, and keeping him onlead and muzzled when on public property.
> 
> which apart from the tatooing is what i said. not wrong again!!
> 
> :devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:



This thread just seems to going round in circles with a lot of posters giving information/advice on a subject they know very little about which could end up with people and their dogs in trouble with the police.


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## marthaMoo

rifkygirl said:


> The Uk is way to open for all sorts of things being brought in, the main one being Ireland, and until these passages are stopped, everything is getting through. Still what difference does it make anyway, if they cant get hold of pittbulls or x's, they have started on the mastiff breed now to start fighting with. And when they've finished with that breed im sure they will move onto another. It's not the breed that needs to be stopped it's the people. IMO I think all dogs should be made to be speyed/neutered to stop breeding, unless they are a licensed/registered breeder. And *ALL* breeds of dogs should be micro chipped to ensure that the owner takes full responsibility of his animal.


I totally agree : )

Especially since I have brought dogs back from Ireland myself and bring dogs over via courier. I have never been stopped and the couriers are only ever stopped if they think they animals welfare is at risk, which very rarely happens.
Ireland is major sorce of dogs to us, Yes rescue dogs do come over but you also have Racing Greyhounds, Working Lurchers, Puppy Farm puppies and other breeds that have been bred to order, like a litter of Tibetan Mastiff x Dobies I saw once, gawd knows what kind of life they were coming over to live : (


And of course I agree with the neutering, chipping and registering of all dogs.


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## KathyM

I used to agree with routine neutering but I don't think it's workable (or suitable for some dogs).


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## sarahc

*unregistered pitbulls*



rotty said:


> This thread just seems to going round in circles with a lot of posters giving information/advice on a subject they know very little about which could end up with people and their dogs in trouble with the police.


if I had an unregistered pitbull as a pet I have to say I wouldn't risk putting it's life in the hands of the justice system.I'd take my chances passing it off as a bull breed cross of some sort.


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## rifkygirl

KathyM said:


> I used to agree with routine neutering but I don't think it's workable (or suitable for some dogs).


 
Any reason why you think this? I could only agree with you if it was on a vets opinion for medical reasons they couldn't be done. But surely, having all dogs to be neutered has got to be better than anybody being able to breed. Look at the state of the poor SBT. Rehoming centres are chocker block with them that they just cant find homes for, so something has to give, and having *ALL* dogs neutered would seem the way to go.. There are way to many dogs in rescues that are looking for homes, yet people just seem to think they can breed their dogs willy nilly.. I guess it just boils down to monies doesn't it, forget the welfare of the animal and just keep breeding. .. :whip:


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## KathyM

For a start, one would have to set an age by which dogs would have to be neutered, which is unrealistic as different dogs mature at different ages. Then you have dogs with behavioural issues that mean neutering would be highly detrimental. A vet cannot decide which of these would or should be exempt, as vets have absolutely no training in animal behaviour. The only way a vet would have any realistic experience is in medical cases where neutering would not be safe. 

I am very pro neutering where it is possible, I just know from experience that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to neutering. A vet deciding that a dog is healthy enough for neutering is not enough.

ETA: You're teaching your granny to suck eggs too, I have been involved in and aware of the rescue field for years.


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## Marinam2

lizardloverrach said:


> They are illegal, but, you can actually keep one in certain circumstances if you can prove it is not a danger to the public, its spayed/neutered, microchipped, registered and leashed/muzzled in public.


This applies solely to dogs that were born before the ban came in to force and unless you have some super pit bull all those dogs should have died of old age now, so technically this should now mean that there are no pits in the UK anymore but its not people are still importing breeding and selling under the cover of darkness.

Marina


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## marthaMoo

As for neutering there are actually a good few rescues and vets who already neuter puppies. They have done it in America for sometime now and I can see it becoming more wide spread in this country amounst more rescues before long.


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## daz30347

*Pitt Bulls*

QUOTE;it is not illegal to own an american pit bull terrier in england

Unless you own a registered Pitt Bull that is 20 years old you are definately breaking the law


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## hedgehog738

thats alot of pit bull info,


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## zon3k

bet it wasnt a pit
Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull :whistling2:


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## Amazon29

zon3k said:


> bet it wasnt a pit
> Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull :whistling2:


 
I got it in 2 'Bob' : victory:lol.... When I 1st saw a pit in the flesh, he was not what I emagined at all! I thought they were short legged, body builders.. lol...
They are beautiful dogs, and anyone whop spoils these dogs wonderful nature should be shot!

Can some one go on my profile pics and upload the pic of Lucan... thanks.


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## LisaLQ

marthaMoo said:


> As for neutering there are actually a good few rescues and vets who already neuter puppies. They have done it in America for sometime now and I can see it becoming more wide spread in this country amounst more rescues before long.


God I hope not. I would hope rescues and vets would be more knowledgable than that, and see the potential problems they could cause by having such a blanket rule.

I'm 100% pro neutering in pet animals - I think all dogs who dont have a medical or behavioural reason not to be neutered, should be. I think it should be law. But neutering must be done once a dog is ready, and all dogs are ready at different times, depending on breed, size, how they're raised, lines etc. Neutering all animals so young could cause some of them to have long term health and behavioural problems.


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## rotty

Amazon29 said:


> I got it in 2 'Bob' : victory:lol.... When I 1st saw a pit in the flesh, he was not what I emagined at all! I thought they were short legged, body builders.. lol...
> They are beautiful dogs, and anyone whop spoils these dogs wonderful nature should be shot!
> 
> Can some one go on my profile pics and upload the pic of Lucan... thanks.
> 
> image


he is a good looking dog :2thumb:


----------



## SiUK

daz30347 said:


> QUOTE;it is not illegal to own an american pit bull terrier in england
> 
> Unless you own a registered Pitt Bull that is 20 years old you are definately breaking the law


not true, but that has been stated already in the thread, there is a way to have a pitbull legally in the UK at the moment. But its a complete gamble, alot of hassle finacially expensive, and not garanteed to work.


----------



## marthaMoo

LisaLQ said:


> God I hope not. I would hope rescues and vets would be more knowledgable than that, and see the potential problems they could cause by having such a blanket rule.
> 
> I'm 100% pro neutering in pet animals - I think all dogs who dont have a medical or behavioural reason not to be neutered, should be. I think it should be law. But neutering must be done once a dog is ready, and all dogs are ready at different times, depending on breed, size, how they're raised, lines etc. Neutering all animals so young could cause some of them to have long term health and behavioural problems.


Well it has been done for quite some time in America. There are studies into it. It has now been started over here. I know of one large rescue in London who does it at around 12/13 weeks, along with a breed rescue they work with. They have been doing it for 2/3 years now. Plus another large organisation that has lowered there neutering age and will probably lower it again within time. My firend who also runds a rescue has done it with puppies and kittens. All seem to be fine and well rounded animals so far. 


Amazon29 I would really hope that isnt a pic of the dog thats living with you. Because posting a pic of a dog that looked like that on a public forum would be a very silly thing to do.


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## Esarosa

marthaMoo said:


> Amazon29 I would really hope that isnt a pic of the dog thats living with you. Because posting a pic of a dog that looked like that on a public forum would be a very silly thing to do.


I agree. I would personally remove the pictures. Really not worth the risk.


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## rotty

Esarosa said:


> I agree. I would personally remove the pictures. Really not worth the risk.





As far as i made out Amazon 29 didnt say the dog was hers,she said

"When I 1st saw a pit in the flesh, he was not what I emagined at all!"

i took that to mean that the dog belonged to someone else.Anyway i have removed the picture that Amazon 29 was wanting someone to post for her.
I think if she had something to hide she wouldnt have asked for someone to post it in the first place

edit,, just had a look at Amazon 29`s signature,,and the only dog that gets a mention is a shar pei,,so i take it the dog in the photo did belong to someone else..


----------



## Amazon29

rotty said:


> As far as i made out Amazon 29 didnt say the dog was hers,she said
> 
> "When I 1st saw a pit in the flesh, he was not what I emagined at all!"
> 
> i took that to mean that the dog belonged to someone else.Anyway i have removed the picture that Amazon 29 was wanting someone to post for her.
> I think if she had something to hide she wouldnt have asked for someone to post it in the first place
> 
> edit,, just had a look at Amazon 29`s signature,,and the only dog that gets a mention is a shar pei,,so i take it the dog in the photo did belong to someone else..


 
No, he doesnt live with me. I dont know his owner, or where he lives... he just crossed my path. I wish he was mine.. he was ace!
Thanks for the warning though..x


----------



## LisaLQ

marthaMoo said:


> Well it has been done for quite some time in America. There are studies into it. It has now been started over here. I know of one large rescue in London who does it at around 12/13 weeks, along with a breed rescue they work with. They have been doing it for 2/3 years now. Plus another large organisation that has lowered there neutering age and will probably lower it again within time. My firend who also runds a rescue has done it with puppies and kittens. All seem to be fine and well rounded animals so far.
> 
> 
> Amazon29 I would really hope that isnt a pic of the dog thats living with you. Because posting a pic of a dog that looked like that on a public forum would be a very silly thing to do.


How long have they been doing it? Bit soon to tell whether it's caused lasting harm or not. You've nothing to compare them to - check out their growth rates, whether or not they end up incontinent, etc.

I think it's very sad that rescues would see the need to neuter (as there is a need to neuter, I dont dispute that) as more important than the animals long term health.

I'd avoid those rescues and urge others to also.


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## KathyM

Paediatric neutering is proving to be very safe according to the studies I read, I just don't personally agree with blanket rules for neutering *all* dogs. I do think it might become necessary and be very useful for rescues specifically though.


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## hedgehog738

i think the owners should be interviewed to see if they are experienced enought or suitable to keep pit bulls.


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## hedgehog738

**enough ^^


----------



## rotty

hedgehog738 said:


> **enough ^^


Not too bad,,21 pages in a thread about a subject that gets reposted every couple of months :notworthy:

cant wait till the next time it comes up :lol2:


----------



## 206vic

rotty said:


> This thread just seems to going round in circles with a lot of posters giving information/advice on a subject they know very little about which could end up with people and their dogs in trouble with the police.


right here goes. i actually know alot about all breeds of dogs because i personally have had dogs for 24 years and in that time bred and shown. my parents bred and have shown dogs for 25 years and my nan still breeds and shows and has done for 50 years, has been a top breeder in her breed and has judged at many shows. i still work with dogs. i may not have been clear about what it takes to be able to keep a pit bull/american pit bull terrier/american staff/whatever but i do know every breed of dog and when i say every breed thats exactly what i mean. just because some of you dont know what you talking about doesnt mean nobody else does!


----------



## rotty

206vic said:


> right here goes. i actually know alot about all breeds of dogs because i personally have had dogs for 24 years and in that time bred and shown. my parents bred and have shown dogs for 25 years and my nan still breeds and shows and has done for 50 years, has been a top breeder in her breed and has judged at many shows. i still work with dogs. i may not have been clear about what it takes to be able to keep a pit bull/american pit bull terrier/american staff/whatever but i do know every breed of dog and when i say every breed thats exactly what i mean. just because some of you dont know what you talking about doesnt mean nobody else does!


Good for you :no1:


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## fenwoman

206vic said:


> right here goes. i actually know alot about all breeds of dogs because i personally have had dogs for 24 years and in that time bred and shown. my parents bred and have shown dogs for 25 years and my nan still breeds and shows and has done for 50 years, has been a top breeder in her breed and has judged at many shows. i still work with dogs. i may not have been clear about what it takes to be able to keep a pit bull/american pit bull terrier/american staff/whatever but i do know every breed of dog and when i say every breed thats exactly what i mean. just because some of you dont know what you talking about doesnt mean nobody else does!


oooh now I'm interested. What breed does your 'Nan' breed and judge? I might know her. Do you breed and show the same as her and your parents?


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## hedgehog738

hedgehog738 said:


> **enough ^^


i really dont remember posting that?? i never use **.


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## 206vic

fenwoman said:


> oooh now I'm interested. What breed does your 'Nan' breed and judge? I might know her. Do you breed and show the same as her and your parents?


she breeds pomeranians now but has stopped showing. she judged lots of different breeds. she has bred and shown all 3 sizes of poodles, gsd, corgis, cocker spaniels, bichons. her affix is chambecc. my parents and i bred and showed firstly pyrenean montain dogs and then border terriers affix was pyrennial.


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## hedgehog738

is there an easy was of telling them apart from staffys?


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## 206vic

a staffie 









an american pitbull terrier


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## gazz

206vic said:


> an american pitbull terrier


The above is a pitbull likely a APBT/Amstaff mix somthing along that line.
But the above is *not* an pure American pit bull terrier.It's to bully & stocky.

Amercan pit bull terrier(cropped).









American pit bull terrier(Uncropped).


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## ryanr1987

That beige colour one is def a apbt x or an amstaff. True apbt are very lean and leggy dogs they are not bulky like the amstaff. They usually weigh less then 40 or 50lb.


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## hedgehog738

oh i dont think i would realise if i saw 1 one the street i would think it was a staffie


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## steveyruss

The BSL is a joke, if anything it makes these 'dangerous' breeds of dogs more dangerous than they should be as they are less socialised because people hide them away underground. Blanket bans just do not work and they target law abiding citizens and those who wish to ignore the law will and create some obscure cross breed. Frankly with responsible owners any well socialised animal can be a great addition to a family. 

Any dog can be trained to be aggressive, I see a lot of crap being said about staffies, are people ignoring that the number of bites is due to their popularity on rough estates leading to a lot of poor owners? so we ban staffies what will be the next breed of dog to ban? The bigger looking one? The one with more teeth? Statistically speaking smaller dogs are much more likely to bite. We own two dogs a malamute husky cross that is malamute size and a jack russell and the latter would be the one to bite if one were to.


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## temeraire

I've just looked at that ad.

The dogs are "game" "rare" "American" - all very odd things to see in a genuine puppy advert.

They look, even as puppies, like Pit Bulls. I am 100% sure they will look like Pit Bulls when grown up, too.

There is no DNA test to prove your dog is NOT a pit bull. But there MAY be a new test (post the toddler killed recently) that is only available to the authorities that proves one IS.

So if you want to buy a puppy that is game, rare, American, *say no more nudge nudge wink wink*, which could end up being PTS and you in court, maybe you banned from keeping dogs, maybe dogs hurt, maybe just an innocent puppy that shouldn't have been born in the first place being PTS... be my guest, go ahead. Make my day.

It is often said that Pit Bulls are nice dogs really, depending on their breeding and upbringing. I have no problem with that. I'm sure it's true, but not in the UK where it's been a bit of an underground free-for-all. At least in the US where ABTS are legal, if you really wanted one that was kind and gentle and lovely, you could find one that would be kind and gentle and lovely, cos you have the freedom to look among the breeders who do not use them for Game.

We don't have that choice here cos they are all illegal; I would say those that are the best suited to family life, and being good citizens in this current anti-Bull breed and hyper Type climate, where innocent crossbreeds are dying in the name of the APBT............do not come from litters advertised as Game, Rare and American. I'll go one further and say there aren't any trustworthy APBTs here... cos they weren't imported for their niceness... gameness is worth money not niceness.

I'd say you aren't a genuine dog lover if you take one of these on. Or you're a bit mental. Or both.
Discuss.


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## ChokolateLatte

temeraire said:


> I've just looked at that ad.
> 
> The dogs are "game" "rare" "American" - all very odd things to see in a genuine puppy advert.
> 
> They look, even as puppies, like Pit Bulls. I am 100% sure they will look like Pit Bulls when grown up, too.
> 
> There is no DNA test to prove your dog is NOT a pit bull. But there MAY be a new test (post the toddler killed recently) that is only available to the authorities that proves one IS.
> 
> So if you want to buy a puppy that is game, rare, American, *say no more nudge nudge wink wink*, which could end up being PTS and you in court, maybe you banned from keeping dogs, maybe dogs hurt, maybe just an innocent puppy that shouldn't have been born in the first place being PTS... be my guest, go ahead. Make my day.


Think you posted on the wrong thread


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## SiUK

The DDA is making the problem worse than it would be if pitbulls were legal.


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## temeraire

ChokolateLatte said:


> Think you posted on the wrong thread


So I am!  *mumble mumble* Thanks.... *runs away and hides*


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## hedgehog738

temeraire said:


> So I am!  *mumble mumble* Thanks.... *runs away and hides*


:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


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## clairebear1984

Jczreptiles said:


> I believe pitbulls are but pitbull crosses are not.


pitbull crosses are also illegal


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## 206vic

gazz said:


> The above is a pitbull likely a APBT/Amstaff mix somthing along that line.
> But the above is *not* an pure American pit bull terrier.It's to bully & stocky.
> 
> Amercan pit bull terrier(cropped).
> image
> 
> American pit bull terrier(Uncropped).
> image


thats a show specimen american pit bull terrier which is to the american kennel club breed standards. so if thats not a pit bull then what the hell is...............................................?


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## rotty

206vic said:


> thats a show specimen american pit bull terrier which is to the american kennel club breed standards. so if thats not a pit bull then what the hell is...............................................?


Well if that dog is show standard for the AKC then it must be an Amstaff,
as the AKC dont seem to recognize the pit bull terrier..
Breed Standards & Appearance

American Kennel Club - Complete List of Breeds

And if you want to know what one is MEANT to look like there is a fine 
example half way down that first link page
Yep thats right ,, Marty`s Lilbit,,the one i posted a link to a couple of pages
back,,the one you said was not a pit bull because you said....and i quote

 i do know every breed of dog and when i say every breed thats exactly what i mean.

Well not in this case it seems


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## gazz

206vic said:


> thats a show specimen american pit bull terrier which is to the american kennel club breed standards. so if thats not a pit bull then what the hell is...............................................?


The picture you posted is a Pit bull but it's a cross of pit types.what it's NOT is a American pit bull terrier.AKC doesn't accept the American pit bull terrier as a show dog.They accept the Amstaff but that is NOT a American pit bull terrier.

The American pit bull terrier the Amstaff along with the Staffordshire bull terrier and English bull terrier are all basically pit bulls due to there roots but only one is a American pit bull terrier.


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## gazz

rotty said:


> Well if that dog is show standard for the AKC then it must be an Amstaff.


You wouldn't see a Amstaff that color in the show ring.Like the Stafforshire bull terrier it a fault.
IMO it's a American pit bull terrier/Amstaff cross.So got the build of the Amstaff and the color of the American pit bull terrier.
There is also a chance it maybe a Amstaff in fault color.


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## sophs87

[

image[/QUOTE]


STUNNING dog :mf_dribble:


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## rotty

gazz said:


> You wouldn't see a Amstaff that color in the show ring.Like the Stafforshire bull terrier it a fault.
> IMO it's a American pit bull terrier/Amstaff cross.So got the build of the Amstaff and the color of the American pit bull terrier.
> There is also a chance it maybe a Amstaff in fault color.
> 
> image



Cheers for pointing that out mate 

The point i was trying to get across was that dog wasnt an AKC breed standard pit bull as stated by 206VIC,because the AKC dont recognize the american pit bull ,,they only have a breed standard for an Amstaff.

cheers


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## 206vic

rotty said:


> Well if that dog is show standard for the AKC then it must be an Amstaff,
> as the AKC dont seem to recognize the pit bull terrier..
> Breed Standards & Appearance
> 
> American Kennel Club - Complete List of Breeds
> 
> And if you want to know what one is MEANT to look like there is a fine
> example half way down that first link page
> Yep thats right ,, Marty`s Lilbit,,the one i posted a link to a couple of pages
> back,,the one you said was not a pit bull because you said....and i quote
> 
> i do know every breed of dog and when i say every breed thats exactly what i mean.
> 
> Well not in this case it seems


hahahahahaha you just had me on the floor laughing!!! just looked at the links you put on and the 1st one proves me right when i say both american staff and pit bull terriers are the same dog and the pic you put on if you read underneath it its actuall an 'athletic bulldog'. the 2nd link with the akc breed standards proves me right again with an exact description of the pic i put on and doesnt describe that scrawny mongrel you put on. so before you argue that im wrong make sure youve got information to back you up and not me! oh dear it is a shame.......


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## 206vic

gazz said:


> You wouldn't see a Amstaff that color in the show ring.
> 
> yes you would. read the akc breed standard. completely white, mainly white and liver are undesired. any other colour is accepted.


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## 206vic

The point i was trying to get across was that dog wasnt an AKC breed standard pit bull as stated by 206VIC,because the AKC dont recognize the american pit bull ,,they only have a breed standard for an Amstaff.

cheers[/QUOTE]

same dog. american pit bull terriers are registered under the name american staffordshire. read up!!


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## Cheeky-x

lizardloverrach said:


> They are illegal, but, you can actually keep one in certain circumstances if you can prove it is not a danger to the public, its spayed/neutered, microchipped, registered and leashed/muzzled in public.


Also has too be tattoo'd and checked in with police every 6-8weeks or so


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## 206vic

also check wikipedia that will also tell you that pit bull and american staffordhire are the same dog.


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## gazz

206vic said:


> gazz said:
> 
> 
> 
> You wouldn't see a Amstaff that color in the show ring.
> 
> yes you would. read the akc breed standard. completely white, mainly white and liver are undesired. any other colour is accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> That dog is red nosed there for of the liver strain so is UNDESIRED.No go in the show ring.
Click to expand...


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## 206vic

gazz said:


> 206vic said:
> 
> 
> 
> That dog is red nosed there for of the liver strain so is UNDESIRED.No go in the show ring.
> 
> 
> 
> UKC breed sandard says nose can be any colour
Click to expand...


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## gazz

206vic said:


> hahahahahaha you just had me on the floor laughing!!! just looked at the links you put on and the 1st one proves me right when i say both american staff and pit bull terriers are the same dog and the pic you put on if you read underneath it its actuall an 'athletic bulldog'. the 2nd link with the akc breed standards proves me right again with an exact description of the pic i put on and doesnt describe that scrawny mongrel you put on. so before you argue that im wrong make sure youve got information to back you up and not me! oh dear it is a shame.......


 


> So what exactly does a Pit Bull look like? First start with the breed
> standards. A "standard" is a written description of what an ideal
> specimin of a breed should look like. There are four standards that you
> should be concerned with. The first standard is the United Kennel Club
> standard, the second is the American Dog Breeders Association
> standard, and the third is the All American Dog Registry standard. The
> fourth standard is the AKC standard for the American Staffordshire
> Terrier. *The UKC and AKC standards are similar; American Staffordshire *
> *Terriers can be registered with the UKC as "American Pit Bull Terriers", *
> *and can then compete in UKC shows.*


It says for a Amstaff to compete in a UKC show it can be registered with them but as a American pit bull terrier.But it can't visa versa so a American pit bull terrier can't be registered as a Amstaff to show in the AKC show.That isn't saying there the same.It just explains why people get so lost between the breeds.


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## gazz

206vic said:


> gazz said:
> 
> 
> 
> UKC breed sandard says nose can be any colour
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that's the UKC for American pit bull terriers.The AKC for the Amstaff red nose is a no'no.
> 
> There two clubs are differant the AKC wouldn't take American pit bull teriers so they started there own club.
> 
> UKC = United Kennel Club.
> AKC = American Kennel Club-(The American branch of the uk KC).
Click to expand...


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