# Forged KC Papers??



## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

Is it possible to forge kc papers and is it common for it to be done? We have a 5 month old rottweiler bitch who we bought from a local breeder but we are convinced she isnt pure bred yet she has kc papers. she is quite tall and leggy and not very big build, but her face and colouring is very rottweiler. we saw her mum when we bought her and she was obviously a rottweiler and massive, very tall and well built but we didnt see her dad.


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## white (May 16, 2009)

any pics


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

do you have any pics of her? .. that way people can judge for themselves


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

will get some pictures tomorrow, my husband is away and has the camera, she does look like yours rach but just not as big build.


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

it's still only 5 months old so it's at that leggy stage and will fill out as it gets older.


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

i realise its not much help without pictures but if anyone has heard of forged kc papers would love to hear from you. I have tried contacting the breeder but they have not returned my calls which makes me even more concerned.


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## R.E.C.S (May 13, 2009)

if you can get pics up, my brother breeds rotties and rottie x dogue de bordaux.

he can tell a cross straight away, he did tell me once that if rottie has any white in it then its a cross somewhere down the line. white in rotties is unaceptable in the kennel club


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## R.E.C.S (May 13, 2009)

just to add aswell,
anything can be forged, passports, driving license etc so i dont see why a kc paper couldnt,
my brother bought a rottie bitch a while back and her papers were written by hand!!!

her bought her anyway at a reduced price because she was soooo gorgeous


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

my girl does have white on her chect but not a huge amount, i realise this is undesireable for rottweilers but i dont intend on showing so it didnt bother me too much


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Easiest way to find out is contact the kennel club themselves.


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## R.E.C.S (May 13, 2009)

just spoke to my brother, any white on a rottie means its a cross, maybe not between the parents of your dog, but maybe previously in the dogs lineage.

the only exception being throwbacks, its just when a colour gets thrown up in the genepool.

if it has been crossed somewhere in the lineage then the kc papers have been forged at some point, either in your case or years back with the dogs grandparents etc.


also been told to ask if there are many champions in the lines??? if there are champions the papers are less likely to be fake.

hope it helps


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

yeah contact the kennel club with your dogs number and they can tell you if its registered. 
white on the chest usually means a throw back proper old time german line though! and they are taller and leaner......
pictures please!


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

i never even thought of contacting the kennel club lol will ring them tomorrow. thank you


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

R.E.C.S said:


> just spoke to my brother, any white on a rottie means its a cross, maybe not between the parents of your dog, but maybe previously in the dogs lineage.
> 
> the only exception being throwbacks, its just when a colour gets thrown up in the genepool.


A small amount of white on a rotties chest does not mean it is certainly a cross.
White is just a fault to the standard.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

saxon said:


> A small amount of white on a rotties chest does not mean it is certainly a cross.
> White is just a fault to the standard.


 


I agree white doesnt mean its a cross its just an undesirable fault same as GSD. Let us know what the kennel club say. Have you tried googling the kennel name of any of the dogs in the pedigree just to see if they actually exist ?


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Nope... White on rotties doesn't automatically mean it's a cross. It's a show default, yes, but pure rotties are known to have the odd white bit. It's actually quite common.


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

either way she is beautiful and we love her to bits, probably being paranoid but will deffinatly be contacting the kennel club tomorrow


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## Fuzzball (May 16, 2007)

It is very easy to forge KC papers and it happens alot. As long as they have the registration details for a dog and a bitch of the same breed then a litter of pups can be registered. I too have a dog that came with registration papers, I now know he isnt and what the breeder was telling me was a complete load of rubbish. Theres also a breeder not far from me that registers cross-breeds as pedigrees and uses a stud dog with no papers and registers them under a different stud dog


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

papers cant be forged coz they have everything on computer well i suppose they can be forged but the kc wont have it on there system iof they have forged them, but maybe a rougue male mated the bitch pups came out looking somewhat like there mum they may also have a male kc reg rottie dog or know someone that has n put him down for the father reg the pups 2 try n get more for them????. if u think this is the case i think they (the kc) will look in2 it n do blood tests on the dogs


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

my intention was to have a litter from her one day, i would have all health tests done BUT if there is a chance she is a cross with fake papers i would not breed from her.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

I do know some breeders do forge in the 80's I used to breed border collies when they first became KC reg there was a few bad breeders who would swap a pup and register a working sheep dog as apposed to a kc reg border ;( 

I had someone wanting to do ths with one of my stunning blue tricoloured boys but i refued to sell him knowing what would happen 

Paula


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

There are many dodgy breeders about that will register an extra pup or 2 when registering a litter. Some others who will sell these papers of non exsistant puppies to other dodgy breeders who will use these to pass off older dogs as registered should they find a dog that they like and hasn't got papers.

I know of it happening within GSD's personaly.
When I bought my GSD she was fully registered but when I got her papers from the kennel club they were different to the hand written papers I got from her breeders. However, turned out that even tho they had written the wrong dogs as her grandparents and great grandparents. Turned out the true ones were Champion dogs and top show winners and so it was a happier mistake to rectify.


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## CKM (May 9, 2009)

A dog can be pedigree and registered all correctly, but it does not guarantee that your dog is going to look exactly like the breed standard.

Unless you buy from a reputable breeder who only breeds with sound dogs who are true to the likeness of the breed, then you could end up with a pedigree dog who looks 'slightly' different in some way (head size/shape, shorter, taller etc).

Because you didn't see dad, he may have not been the best 'looking' Rotty to breed with, so then the pups will come out looking less like a breed standard Rottweiler and it goes on and on if you continue to breed with the pups.

Afterall, you bought the puppy as a 'pet' right? so unless you bought a 'show' dog, then you cannot always expect perfection in looks, unless you buy from a recommened and reputable breeder imo.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

CKM said:


> A dog can be pedigree and registered all correctly, but it does not guarantee that your dog is going to look exactly like the breed standard.
> 
> Unless you buy from a reputable breeder who only breeds with sound dogs who are true to the likeness of the breed, then you could end up with a pedigree dog who looks 'slightly' different in some way (head size/shape, shorter, taller etc).
> 
> ...


 
Very True.

If you also go to a good breeder and say that you are wanting a puppy purely as a pet, they will direct you to puppies in the litter which are pet quaility. And if after a show dog, they will direct you to those in the litter that have potentail.
It is untrue that a good breeder would sell you a pup, that you want to show and state so, that was a pet quality one. As ot would be their Prefix on the dogs name and would reflect badly on them.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> There are many dodgy breeders about that will register an extra pup or 2 when registering a litter. Some others who will sell these papers of non exsistant puppies to other dodgy breeders who will use these to pass off older dogs as registered should they find a dog that they like and hasn't got papers.
> 
> I know of it happening within GSD's personaly.
> When I bought my GSD she was fully registered but when I got her papers from the kennel club they were different to the hand written papers I got from her breeders. However, turned out that even tho they had written the wrong dogs as her grandparents and great grandparents. Turned out the true ones were Champion dogs and top show winners and so it was a happier mistake to rectify.


this is very common in dogs, it happens alot.


i`ve also been offered papers for a pedigree cat i bought by someone who registers a few `spares` on every litter.
( i`d bought a cat from someone who was giving up breeding, turns out they had signed a contract not to sell her on, hence the offer of the papers. ) 

theres always a way around the rules if you`re that way inclined


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Have to agree! apart from which if a disreputable breeder owned both a dog and a bitch and had puppies registered at the KC from that mating, then if the bitch was caught by another none pedigree dog and the breeder registered the litter naming the sire as the father, the KC wouldn't know he wasn't the father, cos they aren't inspecting the pups!

So yes getting hold of false registration certificates would be quite easy!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

temerist said:


> Is it possible to forge kc papers and is it common for it to be done? We have a 5 month old rottweiler bitch who we bought from a local breeder but we are convinced she isnt pure bred yet she has kc papers. she is quite tall and leggy and not very big build, but her face and colouring is very rottweiler. we saw her mum when we bought her and she was obviously a rottweiler and massive, very tall and well built but we didnt see her dad.


 
IMO it's very esay to forge KC results.Say for example you have two KC reg black & tan rottweilers a dog and a bitch.And say you see a dog blue & tan PURE rottwiler but not KC reg but you want it in your line.All you have to do is breed your KC reg black & tan bitch to the blue & tan NON KC reg dog.And just say you used your black & tan KC reg dog then you have KC reg pup's with a blue & tan ancestory.

Rottwilers do vary a bit some expressing more tan than others.


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## temerist (Feb 1, 2009)

seems i was worrying for nothing, have contacted the kennel club and her papers are genuine, even though to be honest they werent much help and seemed annoyed i called them lol will post pics this afternoon when my husband is back, he is going to have a shock when he comes home I havent told him about Dekas litter!! lol


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

It is difficult to 'forge' KC papers, as in them being totally fake, but as Pimperella says, some unscrupulous breeders (most often puppy farmers, IME) do add an extra pup or two to litters and then sell crossbreed pups as purebred. It would also be possible, assuming the breeder owned the stud dog or did so with the stud dog owners knowledge, to use one stud dog, but say a different stud dog was used. The KC do check with stud dog owners though, so you wouldn't be able to pick a random champion. 


I would say what is far more likely than your puppy being a crossbreed is that she is either just going through the 'leggy' stage that puppies go through, or that she is simply a 'poor' example of the breed. If you only wanted her as a pet, I wouldn't worry at all, temprment is most important.

If you are considering breeding from her, I would at the very least suggest reading 'Book Of The Bitch' before you decide to go ahead. It explains all the possible pitfalls of doing so. losing your bitch, bitch eating her puppies, losing all the pups etc...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well, it is as Gazz and I both said. The papers can be correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the puppy's parents are correct.

He could just be going through the transitional stage between puppy and adult and so be out of proportion, but he still could be a non-pedigree cross.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I agree about the parents.

When I was doing my animal care course I had to go and work in kennels for a few weeks.
The woman who ran it bred a certain breed and did breed rescue. All of her bitches would have pups around the same time. This would also include one bitch who came to her as a rescue dog (A white bitch and not KC Reg) She would then register the pups from the rescue bitch as being from one of her KC Reg bitches. The people buying them would never know the pups were from a white unregistered bitch.

So very easily done unfortunatly...


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## Fuzzball (May 16, 2007)

The kennel club wont be able to tell you if the dog is a cross-breed or if the parents on the sheet are infact the dogs parents, all they can tell you is they supplied the paperwork with the information given by the breeder.

Even DNA testing isnt 100% accurate as the KC only supply the kit, they do not witness what you do with it, so as long as you swab the dogs that are the true parents then again, the KC is non the wiser!


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

temerist said:


> i realise its not much help without pictures but if anyone has heard of forged kc papers would love to hear from you. I have tried contacting the breeder but they have not returned my calls which makes me even more concerned.


 
i havnt read the rest of the thread so apologise if this has already been said, when we got r dog, we had to wait for the papers to be sent on 2weeks later i got paranoid and phoned the kennel club, they told me that 5 pups had been born on that date but couldnt tell me anything else, so why dont u just ring the kennel club and ask? also have you regesterd the dog in your name, having to send of for the papers?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

The puppy is registered and he has phoned the Kennel Club - the papers are authentic, but that doesn't prove the puppy is! That's what everyone is saying on here.


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