# Communal Desert Hairy set up



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

About 12-14 years ago I had a communal desert hairy set up. Back then it seemed fairly accepted that desert hairys were ok to keep together in small groups. I don't recall having any problems with them, they lived perfectly happily together.

Nowadays it seems like most people don't believe you can keep them communally. That said, I don't hear from any of the naysayers actual first hand experience of keeping them communally, whereas I have found several other people with the same experience as me in keeping them successfully in a small group.

Nevertheless, the naysayers have put a hint of doubt in my mind so I'm a bit twitchy about them. However, I'm guessing that if I can prove and document that it works, quite a few people would like to have a Hadrurus arizonensis communal display enclosure, so I shall keep ya'll well informed about what goes down. Either way, we will know soon enough!

I have this evening, finished my new communal set up, and introduced three of these little beasties. I've been unable to sex them unfortunately, but I shall have a crack asap. Two have so far met and they showed no signs of wanting to kill each other. When the one spotted the the other it made an absolute beeline for it, causing me to panic big time, and run for the big spoon to separate them. However, I let them get on with it until I was certain they were fighting. They were not. I know what they look like when they are angry and this was not it. They grabbed each others claws, quite slowly, but made no attempt to sting one another whatsoever. 

I found this video on youtube which looks rather similar, but they didn't even get their stingers near each others bodies, they had them flopped to one side and were hooking them up against one another and sort of gently pushing them against each other. It looked more ritualistic - it could either have been some kind of courtship behaviour, or attempting to establish dominance, but certainly not trying to harm one another. In the end one had enough and walked away. It then came back a little later and they tangoed a little more before once again the one which approached the other got bored of it and walked away.

Desert Hairy Tango

Their behaviour was somewhat similar to this video, but seemed considerably more placid as opposed to this of some emperors fighting which is clearly aggressive:

Emperors fighting

It's interesting so far, and the enclosure is looking pretty cool but I'm not 100% happy with it aesthetically yet, so I shall be making a few changes over the next few days and when it's finished I shall post some pics.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

good luck mate. I guess like many predators they'll simply make their own burrows and tolerate each other as long as their fed. Emps aren't too different.


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## The Sandman (Nov 3, 2009)

Finally someone that agrees. ive kept them together for years and never had any probs. same as different species of pandinus. i dont keep them in large groups, just 2-4 in each viv, but they are perfectly happy together. the worst my desert hairy's do is "shudder" at each other then walk away. although, the bigger of the two seems to be the submissive one and im now convinced they are both males due to the size of their pectines.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Sorry, but thats fighting.

My OH was one of the few people to get these to successfully breed and rear some of the offspring to adulthood. It took him a year to condition the female before breeding.

As ive said before, its not unheard of for very experienced keepers to keep these successfully in massive tanks (4ft plus). Personally what you are doing is something we would never risk for the safety and health of our animals. They dont live communally in the wild so why subject them to it in captivity?

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=3010252


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Well if about 18 years of keeping inverts is enough, then I guess I fall into that category. Their enclosure is 5ft x 2ft so yep, it's massive. No, they won't snuggle up to one another like some truly communal species, but it's large enough for them to establish their own territories as they would in the wild. 

In any case, it's more wrestling than fighting, they were very clearly not trying to hurt each other in my case as they weren't using their stingers at all.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

jakakadave said:


> Well if about 18 years of keeping inverts is enough, then I guess I fall into that category. Their enclosure is 5ft x 2ft so yep, it's massive. No, they won't snuggle up to one another like some truly communal species, but it's large enough for them to establish their own territories as they would in the wild.
> 
> In any case, it's more wrestling than fighting, they were very clearly not trying to hurt each other in my case as they weren't using their stingers at all.



Well i personally am now in my 18th year of keeping T's and god knows how many keeping inverts, similar for my OH.

He is also the only one of 3 people we know of to have sucessfully bred these and even less to have got these to adulthood. Cohabiting these is not something we would try as their territories in the wild are further apart that the size of your tank and therefore asking for trouble as you have already found out.

I have already explained to you that is how Hadrurus arizonensis fight, but if you want to sugar coat it by saying "well its only wrestling and they werent using their stingers" then fine. Its up to you how you treat your animals.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Ah but as you say, you haven't tried. And if they aren't hurting each other, rather simply establishing territories, then that's fine. 

I have done it before successfully, as have many others, and now I am trying again, so we shall see shan't we.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

These arent naturally communal, you are keeping them communally. They are already fighting therefore you are subjecting them to uneeded stress.

You do know that in the wild their burrows are regulary found to be over 2.5m long? Thats a fair bit longer than your tank.

I wouldnt call keeping fighting animals together successful keeping either


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

As I say, we shall see. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating as they say. Lots of people agree with me, lots of people agree with you (but mostly those who have never actually done it like yourself), so let's see what happens shall we.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Im not argueing at all, just discussing :2thumb:

Our reasons for not keeping communally is because everyone we have spoken to about it have said firstly you need a stupidly big tank for which we dont have the room and secondly most have found they ended up fighting and we wouldnt want to stress the animals or risk them getting damaged/death.

I dont blame you for having the curiosity for trying and experimenting, but the sensible thing to do is to separate when the animals start to fight. Do you really want to risk your animals health? Possibly reduce their life expectancy, find only one scorpion left one morning? These are questions you will have to ask yourself.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Fair enough.

Well, let me make it clear that I wasn't letting them fight for the sake of wanting them to fight - obviously not, if it had gotten nasty then I would definitely have separated them, and I was on hand with a big metal spoon for this very purpose, but they have got to meet each other and see what's what so I didn't want to just dive in there. You may rest assured that if I have any real concerns whatsoever, or see them fighting in a dangerous way I shall remove them to separate enclosures and either create partitions in their enclosure or just use it as for something else.

That would be a shame however, as i have made this enclosure with an integrated blacklight which looks absolutely awesome when they are out hunting.

Anyway, at least now, you will know for sure what goes on, they seemed happy enough this morning and they had clearly been doing a lot of walking around during the night judging by the fact that literally every square inch of the enclosure had footprints on it.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

Hadrurus do not live communally never have they don't in the wild there natural environment is so far spread out Ive been there seen it as i have relatives near Arizona, OK some people may claim to have kept them in true harmony for a while but they except there fate in time or they may go on OK who knows but its not advised. 

Ive kept scorpions for years many species some people here will know that but that's irrelevant, when i first started out with Scropions i had 4 adult hadrurus in a 5.5ft fish tank layered out with sand and clay etc, Each Scorpion created a burrow, when i kept them communal is when i was new to the hobby which was many years ago, i kept them OK for around 5 months and sure i witnessed a lot of scrapping "Shuddering" tail binding seen it all, one morning woke from my pit to go feed the Hairys looked in one was making very short work of another it was halfway through munching down its carapace.

So i left the others in there 2 months without incident, and i was watching TV looked up thought lets go check some temps out on the tanks and do some general maintenance, and i looked in one hairy was in the others burrow on its side looked stiff dead like it was frozen the other hairy was just parked up beside it obviously been fighting.

So Ive had first hand experience of a communal Hadrurus setups OK i was new to the hobby and didn't know nothing about them and i will tell you as far as your communal theory goes its a no no, and have quite a few experts as well as hobbyists that will back that, go ask about on the American boards people that keep them and no abit more about there environments. 

It does not matter how much experience or this whole Ive kept inverts for so many years crap, you have already stated "shuddering" "tail dancing" all the common signs that tell you these guys are not happy with there settings this all leads to stress for them which is unnecessary as you are creating the situation by having them together so why do it, why do you want loads of Scorpions in a tank whats the point.

Ive had one successful breeding's with Hadrurus of which the Scorplings failed to make it past second instar which is all to common in them if there bred in captivity although as i have read Youngun and Muze did it successfully which means the conditions there must have been bang on which must of taken a lot of patience and research to achieve, you don't hear of many successful CB Hadrurus which is the reason you only see WC available and not CB.

Anyway i wont harp on keep them how you like but your in a small minority keeping them communal.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

An interesting insight. I shall be keeping them well fed, so I hope they wont be hungry enough to try and take one another on!


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

I will add Oli (Pied Piper) does know his stuff and is one of the people i will go to for advice on the more uncommonly kept scorps in the hobby.

He has had first hand experience of communal keeping so maybe you will heed his warnings as well as others (i notice you were told the same over on Bugnation), more than mine.

Feeding has nothing to do with territorial issues.

If you want scorpions living together then keep a communal sp.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

jakakadave said:


> An interesting insight. I shall be keeping them well fed, so I hope they wont be hungry enough to try and take one another on!


Scorpions wont kill one another just because there hungry they are solitary and Cannibalistic so making sure your Scorpion is well fed up makes no difference, one strolls into another tunnel at night it could be game over as the scorpion is protecting his home. 

Also another thing with feeding Hadrurus they can be overfed making them extremely fat and not active, they don't eat a lot in there native Mexico and western USA, mine gets 2 large crickets every couple of months


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Pied Piper said:


> Scorpions wont kill one another just because there hungry they are solitary and Cannibalistic so making sure your Scorpion is well fed up makes no difference, one strolls into another tunnel at night it could be game over as the scorpion is protecting his home.
> 
> Also another thing with feeding Hadrurus they can be overfed making them extremely fat and not active, they don't eat a lot in there native Mexico and western USA, mine gets 2 large crickets every couple of months



This is true. Overfeed them and again you will be shortening their lives.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks both, I'll keep you informed. If I experience any problems, you may rest assured that I will segregate their enclosure.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

I am taking your input very seriously and keeping as close an eye on them as I can, to the point where I stayed up till 3am this morning to watch them interact as they seem to come out in the dead of night - not as I had hoped, at around 10ish - mind you, I can't begrudge them a lie in.

I observed all three out and about, wandering around the tank. On a few occasions they encountered each other, all of which was happily without incident. They either simply walked around one another, or on one occasion one actually clambered over the other. No sign of any aggression or defensiveness towards one another so far. I took some pics too, as you can see. Sorry they are a bit crap, my camera ain't the best, but I shall borrow a photographer friend to come take some better pics when I can. I've still got a some work to do on the enclosure as I want more rock and hideyholes in there, I also want to build it up so there are more levels and variation in the terrain to increase the surface area they have to explore and add some air plants too to give a cheeky bit of foliage. Managed to get a shot, of one of their pectines - difficult to tell from such a poor photo but looks like a female to me. Would you concur?


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## A.Cullen (Oct 30, 2009)

i know nothing about scorpions and keeping them in a community but that tank is amazing, i may actually get a scorp because of those pictures haha:2thumb:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

I do hope for the scorps sake that it does work out.

Also wanted to say your set up is amazing! Did you have the enclosure built or is it a display unit of some sort?


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

loving the black light pics


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## tarantulamatt (Nov 12, 2009)

thats one off the best setups i have ever seen


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Muze said:


> I do hope for the scorps sake that it does work out.
> 
> Also wanted to say your set up is amazing! Did you have the enclosure built or is it a display unit of some sort?


It's an old museum vitrine which I have customised over the Christmas break. 

I had to strip all the exterior paint off, which was a really arduous task, clean it all thoroughly, lower the floor in order to get a decent depth of substrate, wire it for heating, install the blacklight etc. It was hard work, but totally worth it.

I hope I am able to keep these little chaps in there, but if not I shall either make separate little areas in there for them or just take them out entirely and make a Pandinus or Heterometrus sp enclosure. 

If only Methobuthus martensii weren't DWA I'd have a group of them in there in a heartbeat.


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## tarantulamatt (Nov 12, 2009)

good luck with it mate i hope it goes well and do and update on it


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

tarantulamatt said:


> good luck with it mate i hope it goes well and do and update on it


Will do, I'll keep the thread regularly updated.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

jakakadave said:


> It's an old museum vitrine which I have customised over the Christmas break.
> 
> I had to strip all the exterior paint off, which was a really arduous task, clean it all thoroughly, lower the floor in order to get a decent depth of substrate, wire it for heating, install the blacklight etc. It was hard work, but totally worth it.
> 
> ...



Its a job really well done and looks stunning, totally worth all the effort IMHO.

:2thumb:


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Muze said:


> Its a job really well done and looks stunning, totally worth all the effort IMHO.
> 
> :2thumb:


Thank you very much Muze! :blush:

One interesting thing which I didn't expect was that when I first turned on the UV the scorpions went a little crazy and ran around few a few moments, which made me worry that it might be harmful to them. I've done some research online, and I can't find anything to suggest that this is the case, so i'm probably just being paranoid. I don't know if this was just coincidence as they don't react at all to it now. Does anyone know if they dislike the UV?

Perhaps it's just some kind of memory of the last time they saw blacklight whenthey got scooped up, put in a tub, and sent across the Atlantic!


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## tarantulamatt (Nov 12, 2009)

it probs just shocked them i dont no


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## The Sandman (Nov 3, 2009)

My caraboctonus sp doesnt like UV, but the rest are fine. The Vaejovis spinigeris love it lol


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Wow Amazing pictures really nice setup.
You must be proud of your work and you sound like a dedicated keeper to me, I know nothing about scorpions, but that set up looks professional, clean and artistic.
Well done.:2thumb:


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Stelios said:


> Wow Amazing pictures really nice setup.
> You must be proud of your work and you sound like a dedicated keeper to me, I know nothing about scorpions, but that set up looks professional, clean and artistic.
> Well done.:2thumb:


Thank you very much!


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## Gomjaba (May 25, 2009)

tarantulamatt said:


> thats one off the best setups i have ever seen


I agree, top really ... Even the details, like the book etc. :no1: : victory: :2thumb:


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Just a little update... tranquillity in Hairy land. They're all very active and frequently cross each others paths, but no problems yet.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

*More tranquility*

I was just lifting up stones to show the scorps to a visitor of mine, and lifting up the slates, much to my amazement, look what I discovered!



Must have gotten lonely and the night and decided that snuggles was the order of the day. I just hope that the third one didn't feel too left out.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Sadly my experiment has come to an end. It seems the one who was left out of the bedtime snuggles the other night did get jealous and decided to kill one of the snugglers and eat one of it's legs. 

Sad times. 

Oh well, at least that's that documented for anyone thinking of doing the same in future. They'll be alright for a bit, and then one will get killed. So, Muze and Pied Piper, I am ready for the inevitable - I told you so.

I'm not sure what to do with the enclosure now. I could separate it up into individual little enclosures, or I could put something different in there which will also benefit from the black light.

Suggestions please.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Not gonna say it dont worry.

Sorry that it didnt work out, just hope you've separated the last two.

Find something communal to put in there as that enclosure is too good to waste: victory:


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Nothing ventured and all that.


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## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

Muze said:


> Not gonna say it dont worry.
> 
> Sorry that it didnt work out, just hope you've separated the last two.
> 
> Find something communal to put in there as that enclosure is too good to waste: victory:


Yeah I have...

Any suggestions for communal? Don't want to let the black light go to waste either...


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

jakakadave said:


> Yeah I have...
> 
> Any suggestions for communal? Don't want to let the black light go to waste either...


sadly not a lot of choice for scorpions without a DWA licence, shame the venomous ones are better for communal set-ups(well a couple of em).

Really the only thing I'd have communally is Emperor scorps or flat rock scorpions, there's always a risk, but they seem to get on with their own kind quite well.


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