# Mixing PDF species Q.



## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Anyone have a mixed species PDF enclosure? If so what species are they? 

Are there any species that simply dont do well with others? Are there certain species that are fairly harmonious? 

Any recommended reading on the subject? 

Thanks.


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## KJ Exotics (Jun 16, 2007)

Mixing species in the dartfrog hobby is not a good thing. Loads of people are against it. 
Things like pummilo, are really bad, they could take an adult tinc down "so to say".


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## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

I wouldnt reccomend it.Much like mixing lizards, snakes etc. Not sure about dominance issues with PDFs, but... Still, I wouldnt risk it.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

I thought this may be the case. For what reasons? Has anyone tried it and had bad experiences? 

I know some are terrestrial and some are arboreal so perhaps one species of each, of similar size, and kept in a large enough enclosure should be OK? 

I really like the plain looking _Phyllobates terribilis_ like in the picture below.










I am now trying to find a possible suitable cohabiting species that is arboreal and more vibrant.


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## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

Athough I suppose if a large enough set up is given and the PDFs are from around the same region, it shouldn't be too much of a problem, but still dominance issues I'm unsure about.

There's a shop here in Cardiff, with some great PDFs in. "Cardiff Rep Centre"
www.cardiffreptilecentre.co.uk Have a look in their amphib section.

They have some lush Bumblebees and Blue PDFs. !


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## KJ Exotics (Jun 16, 2007)

Things such as the simple leucs (Bumblebees) show dominance mostly the females.


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## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

Ah, so I guessed right then with the dominance. It's recessive in most PDFs?


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Cheers for the link Josh but not looking to buy just yet. Good to now they get them in though for when I am ready.

Dominance issues would probably be the main factor but what steps can be taken to minimize this? I know a male heavy sex ratio is important in some species (ie _D. __tinctorius_ and _D. azureus_) and of course lots of space with suitable retreats is obviously important. Are there any other steps that can be taken to avoid complications and inducing stress? 

Anyone had experience with mixing species?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

I have mixed darts. however I would never have done this without first keeping them alone for months and observing their behaviour.

When mixing darts think:

Will one species bully?
Will one species out compete?
Will one species eat more food/take all lay spots?
Will they hybridize?
Will they stress easy?
Do they eat the same size food and have the same requirements?

You really need first hand experience with your specific species before mixing. Its worked for me but im paranoid as ive heard so many horror stories! 

P.s. i love the white terriblis too :flrt:


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## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

Thanks Chondro, cleared some stuff up for me. I hope to get into major Amphibs later on. .

(Starting out easy though xD)


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## MARK.D (Oct 18, 2008)

IMO mixing is wrong. Why risk fighting, hybridizing etc. In the wild they wouldn't live together. I'd rather be a responsible owner and put my Dart frogs needs first and keep them in seperate vivs. This way I have happy stress free frogs.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Cheers Mark, still curious though. 

Thanks for the reply chondro and good idea keeping them separate for observation of behavior before putting them together. 

So does behavior vary that much within a species and/or each sex? 

Did you get many answers to those questions right by using your technique?

If I where to do this it would be a very large enclosure, or possibly a paludarium. 

I hate to do it but in my ignorance I have to ask...

When I used to keep tropical fish certain species where considered non community species and others where commonly kept in peaceful community tanks providing all other needs are met. Is there a similar divide within PDFs?

Or, has there simply not been enough work, or published info on this subject as it is just deemed wrong by the expanding majority?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Gaboon said:


> Cheers Mark, still curious though.
> 
> Thanks for the reply chondro and good idea keeping them separate for observation of behavior before putting them together.
> 
> ...


 
Behaviour between species varies WILDLY. Out of over 200 PDF species id only be comfortably mixing about 4. Its really that specific but you may be correct theres simply not much research into it. As mark said - mixing really isnt the best idea - im currently keeping 2 species togeter with no problems - no bullying, no outcompeting, no hybridizing and they all breed happily in the tank together. but bear in mind with the majority of species that would simply not be the case.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

We currently have _Oophaga pumilio_ with _Phyllobates terribilis_ and _O. pumilio_ with _Phyllobates vittatus._

These are however in exhibit enclosures, but I'm sure you could attempt these things in a home setting given *the right level of experience, right choice of species and a suitably designed and sized environment. *Only with all factors satisfied is this possible.









This enclosure currently houses 6 _P. vittatus _and 4 adult _O. pumilio_ "Bastimentos" (plus offspring!). Both groups breed continuously 
The enclosure has previously housed 5 _P. terribilis _with the same group of _O. pumilio_ and previous to that the same 5 _P. terribilis_ with a group of 5 _Ranitomeya reticulata_. All of these animals bred in this enclosure those now housed elsewhere are still alive (the retics and pumilio are about 13/14yrs!) 

Some inhabitants...

















We leave the _O. pumilio_ metamorphs in situ with supplimentary springtails, the stress of a move seems to really damage their progress.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

This exhibit houses the 5 _P. terribilis_ and 4 _O. pumilio_ (along with 3 eyelash vipers but that's another matter! lol)



















Again, both groups of dendrobatids housed here breed continuously and are in good health.
These things are possible, but approaching this concept takes a lot of time, experience (in enclosure management and both species involved) caution and continued careful observation.

Is it worth doing then?
Only really for selfish reasons and aesthetics, in that it will look stunning and be enjoyable to see these species together, but only if you are certain you have a large enough enclosure and the means to make it happen without any detrimental effect to the animals


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Great thanks for great reply Saedcantas!

Chondro, what I meant was, did you notice a big difference in behaviour or 'character' between individuals of the same species? 

I would not just throw any species together and hope for the best as that would end in disaster no doubt. 

I would maintain and mature a large planted terrarium whilst caring for the chosen species individually or in pairs/trios (probably those recommended by Saedcantas). This process would take months during which I will be able to monitor individual suitability for the upgrade to the communal enclosure.

Does this sound like a good plan of attack? 

I will admitt I will be a new keeper to PDFs but the obove process should allow for time to tweak any areas of question in regard to husbandry. Just after hints on comunal set ups as this would be my goal eventually. 

Cheers.


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## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

Just to ask, are you new to Amphibians all together? From what I've read and been advised, PDFs aren't a great starter species. If you're a keeper with experiance, and fine and dandy.

Just to make sure ahah


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Do you have much experience of amphibians in general?

I'd certainly recommend a year or even more keeping these species seperately before you even consider this.
You need to know your individuals and the intricacies of their species inside out before you are even remotely ready to do this right 

You need to be equipped with the experience to spot the problems before they even occur.

I need to make it crystal clear that the exhibits I've shown are the result of decades of experience between individuals adding up to well designed enclosures, an array of resources and a keen collective eye for issues.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

In have to say my amphibian care to-date is very limited. I did have some baby RETF I bought after I stupidly allowed the vendor selling them to convince me they where ''not as hard to keep as everyone says''. Due to this and me following his 'husbandry guidelines' they did not do well and all died. 

I have though a large background in keeping reptiles and still fancy venturing into the amphibian realm despite my bad first experience. I was initially put off completely. 

I think its fair to say that PDF are unique in the fact that they allow the keeper to provide a complete spacious (due to their size) habitat in which they can complete their full life-cycle? I am comparing them to reptiles here but this is what I am really interested in achieving. I dont really want a starter 'pet' as these dont do it for me. Monkey wax frogs (sauvagii) are the only other amphibs im intending to keep in the foreseeable future but then they are also fairly unique. 

I know where you guys are coming from I really do but the process of raising PDF and the larger planted terrarium is a long-term plan, not a week to check nothing dies then toss them together type plan .

So, any more tips and/or recommended reading would be appreciated : victory:.


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## llamafish (Aug 19, 2008)

peruvian-frogimport > For sale > Frogs for sale > Hyloxalus

only time i seen a website suggest it, and i currently got a froglet with them for a temp situ


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

llamafish said:


> peruvian-frogimport > For sale > Frogs for sale > Hyloxalus
> 
> only time i seen a website suggest it, and i currently got a froglet with them for a temp situ


Cheers but the translation does not stretch to the husbandry pages. May have to learn Norwegian to get this right :lol2:, and German could come in handy!

Some relative info on the page you linked me too though. Thanks .


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Anyone else then?


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Thanks for all the tips :2thumb:.

Will have to get a good book on this. 

Cheers.


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## KJ Exotics (Jun 16, 2007)

Gaboon said:


> Thanks for all the tips :2thumb:.
> 
> Will have to get a good book on this.
> 
> Cheers.



Did i miss somthing ? 
What book that ? 
I have a few books here on darts, a nice read is the prof breeders series one, nice chapter one keeping them in a green house.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

KJ Exotics said:


> Did i miss somthing ?
> What book that ?
> I have a few books here on darts, a nice read is the prof breeders series one, nice chapter one keeping them in a green house.


Dont think so, the thread did die though as soon as I said I have only a little amphibian experience. I had hoped for more information as im sure others have valid contributions but I guess most simply disapprove, fair enough I guess as there are a lot of idiots out there after all.

Anyway lots of further reading to be getting on with . I will probably need some confirmation on a few things as I delve deeper into this subject as it all must be very complex. 

I will have a look at the book you have suggested KJ. Thanks.

Ahhh, I love the feeling of taking on something new and exciting! :2thumb:


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## KJ Exotics (Jun 16, 2007)

So you have little amphibian experience, want to try dartfrogs (im up for that, i will help you though it as well, as im sure some others will to).

First thing first dont think about mixing species, really a bad idea, not looked up to much in the dartfrog hobby, seen it happen a few times some times good results somtimes bad. But only people that been keeping them for a long while should even think about mixing. 

So first question (might have answered some of these).
What species you looking at getting ?
Do you have a price guide you willing to spend ? 
do you have the viv already if so what kind ? If not do you know which kind you would like or do you know what size you can work with ? 
And if i was you i will get som fruit flys breeding at the moment.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

The mixing species Q was more of a curiosity and not something im about to dive into before keeping some species initially for some time separately. 

Here are the answers to your questions. 
*
What species you looking at getting ?*

_Oophaga pumilio, Phyllobates terribilis, Dendrobates tinctorius, Dendrobates azureus, Dendrobates leucomelas _and_ Dendrobates tinctorius_ are what im currently looking into but with so many species and ''morphs'' this is subject to change. kept seperatly of course.

I think I would like to start with _P. terribilis_ or _D. azureus _at the moment. 

*Do you have a price guide you willing to spend ? *

Im not really putting a budget down but I guess around £300 pr set up if keeping pairs or trios. This would be for adults. 

*do you have the viv already if so what kind ? *

I do have a spare 2ft aquarium which I imagin would suit some adults, perhaps a trio? 

*If not do you know which kind you would like or do you know what size you can work with ? *

I will probably be using exo terras in the end but will be intending to build larger ones eventually as space is not an issue. 

*And if i was you i will get som fruit flys breeding at the moment.*

This is still in the very early stages of research but will get som cultures going before getting any frogs .


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