# Is feeding live mice illegal?



## Charisma_Love

I heard somewhere that feeding live mice/rats to snakes in the UK was illegal...is this true?


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## t-bo

Kinda, but not if its done as a last resort.. to prevent a snake from starving to death.


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## Charisma_Love

I doubt the police would come to your house asking you to prove that though lol


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## daughterofthedarkness

As far as i'm aware it's a kinda grey area of the law, the powers that be could prosecute for live feeding for 'causing unnecessary stress to a rodent'.
But as t-bo says if it's done to stop a snake starving to death when all other options have been exhausted i don't see how they could get a conviction.


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## mutt

exactly but knowing this crappy govt, they will find a way though......


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## Blazey

i think if anyon ever complained about it u'd just get moaned at bythe rspca for a while and such. I doubt ur going to get a reprimand or caution over it as such .


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## Candy_Shop

People only get stupid fines for cruelty and abuse towards animals, so I wouldn't imagine that you'd feel the full weight of the law if you were feeding live rodents to your snakes


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## Charisma_Love

I don't agree with live feeding myself, unless the snake reeeally won't eat anything else. It just annoys me when people say I should do it for fun :evil:


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## CBR1100XX

Anyway who is going to know in your own house, unless you go on forums and tell everyone.


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## Anthony

I disagree with live feeding if it is for fun, but not if is because it is the last option of feeding, I used to work in a petshop on weekends (only 16) and used to be incharge of there reptile section and once had a man come in to the shop asking for a live mouse, he thought he was all cool and i knew that he had a snake and i said to him is this for your snake and he said yes (at least he was honest), so i said to him is your snake feeding and he said yes, so i said to him there is no need to feed live as this is cruel to the snake and the mouse and told him that snakes can get injured etc. He said ah go own sell it to me it would be fun to watch, so i shocked him by telling him that i could get him arrested :shock: and he shit himself and legged it out of the shop, Hopefully that will teach the Bast**d :evil: Just shows you how people ae still feeding live just for there own intertainment, What an evil Bast**d, People like that make me sick :evil:


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## Charisma_Love

haha well done you! 

if I had threatened anyone that when I was working in a petshop when i was 16 (I did aswell, but it was only Pets At Home), I don't think anyone would have taken me seriously because I was just a wuss at my first job!


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## cornmorphs

t-bo said:


> Kinda, but not if its done as a last resort.. to prevent a snake from starving to death.


thats pretty much it mate


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## [email protected]

i heard that it is illeagal to feed live mice to snakes etc. if you dont supply food and water for the mouse that is being fed to it. :S


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## PendleHog

It is illegal to cause unneccessary suffering to any vertebrate animal (and octopus vulgaris) - under this ruling it is possible to prosecute someone for animal cruelty for feeding live.

Live feeding is generally only considered acceptable if it is done on the advice of your vet and as a last resort - the snake must be essentially be at death's door.

This is how the RSPCA decide whether to prosecute or not (the police wouldn't prosecute you for live feeding.) This is straight from the horses mouth as it were.

Sadly as the RSPCA are against reptile keeping in general they would prosecute a reptile keeper for unlawful live feeding in a heartbeat, its all ammunition against our hobby.


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## Charisma_Love

PendleHog said:


> Sadly as the RSPCA are against reptile keeping in general they would prosecute a reptile keeper for unlawful live feeding in a heartbeat, its all ammunition against our hobby.


wow, seriously? why is that? 
is it because reptiles, although captive bred, arn't bred to be domesticated (yet?) I suppose it's a lot more work for them, and a lot more cases of animal abuse the more animals that are turned into pets.


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## Blazey

its because reptiles are seen as an animal that isnt best kept in captivity, it should be out in the wild were it naturally has everything it needs.


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## Charisma_Love

Blazey said:


> its because reptiles are seen as an animal that isnt best kept in captivity, it should be out in the wild were it naturally has everything it needs.


what are your views on that? just out of curiousity


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## Anthony

I think the RSPCA are all Wank**s :evil:


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## Blazey

i personally think to an extent they are correct but i get the feeling that the only reason they think reptiles are unsuitable as house pets as they dont look good on their adverts as they are cute, fluffy and adorable. They rarely show a kitten really looking skanky do they? because people dont want to donate to the dirty manky kitten with the ugly face, people want fluffy things to look at. 

At the end pf the day though, zoo's keep lots of animals meant to be kept in the wild, RSPCA cant really argue with looking for the endangered species, but how can they argue that some animals that are common, like....penguins (unsure if they really are not endangered) should be kept in a zoo instead of on an iceberg with the rest of them? 

I don't care what the RSPCA or any other animals organisation say about it being wrong to keep them in our enclosures. We look after them and feed them, its them who cant be bothered to put money into facilities for the reps in need of rescuing when they'll hapilly chuck it all into rescuing cats and dogs and their stupid adverts. Maybe if they showed reptiles and the other animals in the adverts they'd get the funding to care. 

Conclusion: RSPCA discriminate our precious reptiles and thing they arent cute enough for their adverts, therefore they dont et the funding to care for them. Its a disgrace


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## SilverSteno

RSPCA don't even help dogs and cats the only ones being helped are the big bosses at the head of the company making themselves a nice fat profit...As it is I think they're more on the defensive because they are rapidly losing popularity and have successfully managed to alienate a whole school in this area by not caring enough to show up to help an injured animal. 

I actually am against reptiles been taken from the wild to be put in captivity. As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't breed in captivity then it doesn't belong in captivity and WC specimens should only be allowed to be taken by reputable breeders to allow those that have the best chances of extablishing a CB population.

Zoos are on a different level because their animals in most cases (though some are rescues) are designed to educate the public on wild animals and conservation and give people the chance to see these animals. Protecting endangered species is just a part of it the main purpose is to allow people to see real animals. Many people are afraid of snakes and reptiles, but zoos provide and outlet for creating understanding rather than irrational fear.

PS. Most species of Pengiuns are endangered because those icebergs are melting away.


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## Blazey

thanx about letting me know about the penguins  I just couldnt think of an animal to use as an example.

I'm not a fan of the RSPCA, like u say, they dont even make the effort to rescue everything they are alerted about which is absolutly awful! Its good that we have forums like these with people we can talk to rescuing animals, least we know if any reptiles ever need taking off our hands, there are ppl here that can help us better than the RSPCA and show them more love.


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## [email protected]

yeah i agree silvershark! RSPCA didnt give a crap when i phoned them up about a stray cat that had a huge wound on it's paw- said they wouldnt do anything unless we cought it (easier sais then done!!). but they didnt wait a moment as soon as some stupid neighbour called them accusing us of neglecting our cats- very embarrissing having rspca nocking at ur door! 

i think zoos are very different now and concentrate alot more on educating the public. also most of them have a huge range of world wide conservation schemes.

oh and by the way we dont neglect our cats- one of them has a flea allergy so looked a bit manky! well loved a perfectly healthy


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## Blazey

fleas keep biting at my ankles in this hot weather, me and my boyfriend both have very irritating bite marks. I blame his manky cats, we don't let ours outside


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## [email protected]

put a little bit of garlic in their food- apparently that stops them getting fleas- tho then you have to live with them smelling of garlic lol


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## DeanThorpe

or just tell him to loose the cats...


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## [email protected]

lol yeah or that!


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## Bonnie Mitchell

This is an odd thread! 
:x In my experience, the RSPCA frequently plead lack of resources and won't come out to a mis treated creature unless the police are called to force their hand.
Herps don't appeal to most people and the general perception of the creatures that we love is that they are vermin to be exterminated. Judaeo-Christian religions often depict Satan as a serpent and many people are prejudiced against snakes/lizards in the UK for that reason.
Mice have feelings too, I guess. I would NEVER live feed a rodent to a snake or lizard for fun!
Mind you, I saw a cricket washing its little insect face the other day and started to feel sorry for *it*, so I'm soft. My son has a problem that he can feed crix to the lizards but it upsets him to watch them being hunted and eaten, so he just doesn't watch. I'd rather he was like he is than able to be hard hearted about any living thing suffering. (I nearly said cold-blooded, there's a slip of the tongue!) :?:


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## purejurrasic

As noted above, It is illegal to feed live mice to snakes, and the RSPCA will take action if they find out.

However, in the rare event that a vet recommends it (most dont, see above) if the rspca found out and knew the vet had ok'd it, they prob would not take action, but that depends on the officer investigating it.

Now, whilst in general, I belive the RSPCA to be totally off thier little heads where reptiles are involved, they are NOT an emergency vet , but should be albe to give advice as to what to do.

The RSPCA are there to try to prevent cruelty to animals. And lets face it, there are plenty of places where reptiles can be purchased, where the care advice is totally wrong, resulting in the animal suffering.

Thats why the RSPCA are backing the new animal welfare bill.

Thats where we all come in....on this forum great FREE advice is flowing everywhere, and we are all doing our bit to protect our hobby

Anyways, sorry for kinda hijaking the thread, got a little carried away !

Tony


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## andy20146

purejurrasic said:


> As noted above, It is illegal to feed live mice to snakes, and the RSPCA will take action if they find out.
> 
> However, in the rare event that a vet recommends it (most dont, see above) if the rspca found out and knew the vet had ok'd it, they prob would not take action, but that depends on the officer investigating it.
> 
> Now, whilst in general, I belive the RSPCA to be totally off thier little heads where reptiles are involved, they are NOT an emergency vet , but should be albe to give advice as to what to do.
> 
> The RSPCA are there to try to prevent cruelty to animals. And lets face it, there are plenty of places where reptiles can be purchased, where the care advice is totally wrong, resulting in the animal suffering.
> 
> Thats why the RSPCA are backing the new animal welfare bill.
> 
> Thats where we all come in....on this forum great FREE advice is flowing everywhere, and we are all doing our bit to protect our hobby
> 
> Anyways, sorry for kinda hijaking the thread, got a little carried away !
> 
> Tony


agreed.


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## Ssthisto

andy20146 said:


> feeding live isnt illegal in the UK (and by the way no i dont feed live, wouldnt put my snakes in danger like that) if your snake will eat nothing but live then you CAN feed it live. Have a look on the defra website.


Wow, serious threadromancy. Not far off five years old, this thread....


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## andy20146

Ssthisto said:


> Wow, serious threadromancy. Not far off five years old, this thread....


nothing about my comments sounded infantile in the slightest.


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## Ssthisto

I didn't actually say your post was infantile.

What I was suggesting is that this thread that you've replied to is dated August 2006 (it's "nearly five years old") hence the "threadromancy" comment ("Thread necromancy" - raising a thread back from the dead)


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## andy20146

Ssthisto said:


> I didn't actually say your post was infantile.
> 
> What I was suggesting is that this thread that you've replied to is dated August 2006 (it's "nearly five years old") hence the "threadromancy" comment ("Thread necromancy" - raising a thread back from the dead)


my mistake, apologies. I was searching the forums for mice sales and was directed to this thread for some reason.


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## malky201

Damn, when I seen this thread I was gonna jump in with a hilarious witty comment too.....ah well


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## Jake115

*???*

How can you say it's wrong to feed them live how do you think they eat in the wild ???you think they find dead mice???well NO they don't they eat live and only live here in Canada that's all we feed is live and you sayy it's inhumane lmao what do you think they do to pre killed mice in pet stores????? They freeze them to DEATH!!! So you tell me what's more humane feeding it live to a snake or freezing it to death.... Yeaa that's wut I thought think be4 u speak.


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## Ssthisto

No, wild snakes don't eat dead mice. In fact, most of them won't be eating domesticated mice at all. Or, oddly enough, living in a box in someone's house under artificial lighting, artificial heating and with easy-to-maintain artificial substrate and hides.

You are not correct about how feeder mice are killed in the UK; over here the most common method is to humanely euthanise them using CO2, which anaesthetises them so they go to sleep, then kills them. I do not know if Canadian mouse producers do the same thing, but it is quite likely, since you cannot freeze a large batch of adult mice easily - they'll huddle together to keep warm and will stay warm for hours to days, and may well eat your other frozen stock while they're in there to stay alive. Not very efficient when you can just use CO2 to make sure they're dead before they go in the freezer.

You are also incorrect that they only eat live mice in Canada, because I know quite a few Canadian keepers who feed their snakes defrosted prey.


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## andy20146

Jake115 said:


> How can you say it's wrong to feed them live how do you think they eat in the wild ???you think they find dead mice???well NO they don't they eat live and only live here in Canada that's all we feed is live and you sayy it's inhumane lmao what do you think they do to pre killed mice in pet stores????? They freeze them to DEATH!!! So you tell me what's more humane feeding it live to a snake or freezing it to death.... Yeaa that's wut I thought think be4 u speak.


You will find that in the UK nothing goes in to the freezer alive, of course, there are individuals who still use this method but experienced breeders would not recommend it at all. Majority of us kill them via the c02 method. If you have seen this practice then you will know that it efficient and a humane death is guranteed 90% of the time. As far your comment "How the fuc* can you say it's wrong to feed them live how do you think they eat in the wild you think they find dead mice???well NO they don't they eat live" This is true, but can I just point out that captive bred snakes arent in the wild are they? Putting a mouse/rat in an enclosed space with a snake is not natural, the rodent would have some sort of escape, when put in a tank there is guranteed to be only one winner. So what is natural about that I ask you? You may feed live mice in canada but keepers in the UK will only use feeding live in the UK as a last resort. Also the benefits of feeding frozen thawed out-weigh the benefits of feeding live for a number of reasons.


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## spidersnake

PendleHog said:


> It is illegal to cause unneccessary suffering to any vertebrate animal (and octopus vulgaris) - under this ruling it is possible to prosecute someone for animal cruelty for feeding live.
> 
> Live feeding is generally only considered acceptable if it is done on the advice of your vet and as a last resort - the snake must be essentially be at death's door.
> 
> This is how the RSPCA decide whether to prosecute or not (the police wouldn't prosecute you for live feeding.) This is straight from the horses mouth as it were.
> 
> Sadly as the RSPCA are against reptile keeping in general they would prosecute a reptile keeper for unlawful live feeding in a heartbeat, its all ammunition against our hobby.


p.s. sorry the resurrect (sp) this post after so long.

This is how it is, the above is a little inaccurate.




Salazare Slytherin said:


> Ok these are your rights as on this document.~It is done by FOCUS and are proper guidelines.





Salazare Slytherin said:


> DO the *RSPCA* have the right to demand to inspect my animals, question me or my family?
> 
> No; The *RSPCA* have no legal powers, or rights, over and above that of any other member of the general public. They are not animal welfare inspectors under the anial welfare act.
> 
> Can the *RSPCA* issue me with a formal"Improvement notice" under the new act?
> 
> No: Only an animal welfare inspector can legally issue an improvement notice.
> 
> The *RSPCA* call themselves the animal police, wear a police style uniform, have ranks(inspectator, Chief Inspector etc) & issue cautions does this mean they are law inforcement officers?
> 
> No: THe *RSPCA* is a charity,not a statutory law enforcement agency. It is a serious offence to impersonate a police officer.The caution used by the *RSPCA* is taken from the police and criminal evidence act(PACE) and can be used by anyone.
> 
> If I refuse to cooperate with the *RSPCA* can they arrest me?
> 
> NO: The *RSPCA* have no more powers of arrest than any other member of the general public.The caution used by the *RSPCA* starts with he phrase "You ar enot under arrest" which implies they have the power to arrest but this is not true.
> 
> Do I have the right to ask the *RSPCA* to leave my premises?
> 
> YES: The *RSPCA* must leave your premises at your request otherwise they commit the offence of trespass. The *RSPCA* have no more right o enter your property than any other member of the public.
> 
> Do the *RSPCA* have the right to seize animals?
> 
> NO: Only a police officer or anial welfare Inspector appointed by the local authority can seize animals - the *RSPCA* have no power to seize or confiscate anything.
> 
> Can a police officer or animal welfare inspector seize animals and give them to the *RSPCA*?
> 
> YES: A police officer or animal welfare inspector can seize animals under certain circumstances and they can place the animals in the temporaryof the *RSPCA*.Police or animal welfare inspectors seizing animals are legally responsible for them.
> 
> If the police or animal welfare inspector seizes my animals should they give me a receipt?
> 
> YES: If the police or animal welfare inspector seizes your animals you are entitled to demand a receipt from them.DO NOT SIGN any receipt offered by the *RSPCA*.
> 
> Do the *RSPCA* have the right to be on my premises if named on a warrant issued by a magistrate?
> 
> YES: If a warrant has been lawfully issued by a magistrate and it names the *RSPCA* then they have the right of entry.
> 
> What do I do if the *RSPCA* want to inspect my animals or ask me questions, or say they have received an anonymous complaint about my animals?
> 
> In light of recvent developments, and taking into consideration the *RSPCA* postion against many lawful activities concerning animals, our advice is DO NOT answer any questions verbally. Ask the *RSPCA* to put any questions in writing and inform them they will be answered as soon as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps you out and you find it interesting and informative i would suggest printing it out and if they ever come round just keep a copy on prominent display as they hate it lol


p.s. sorry to resurect this thread after so long


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## dave_turnip

andy20146 said:


> can I just point out that captive bred snakes arent in the wild are they? Putting a mouse/rat in an enclosed space with a snake is not natural, the rodent would have some sort of escape, when put in a tank there is guranteed to be only one winner. So what is natural about that I ask you? You may feed live mice in canada but keepers in the UK will only use feeding live in the UK as a last resort. Also the benefits of feeding frozen thawed out-weigh the benefits of feeding live for a number of reasons.


It doesn't matter whether a snake is wild or in captivity, it still has to eat and a rodent still has to die to facilitate this. 

Putting a snake in a box is just as unnatural as putting a mouse in with it. The only natural thing about this is the snake will tend to kill and eat the mouse.

To say there's a difference between putting a mouse in a tank with a snake to die is any different from putting it in a gas chamber is hypocritical, it's still going to die.
What chance of escape does a mouse/rat have from a Co2 chamber? None! There's no difference between putting live food in with a snake and putting it in a Co2 chamber. 

In both cases the rodent has no chance unless the snake refuses to take it. In both cases death is usually relatively quick except one method is less violent. Rodents don't suffer for long when a snake gets on the job, nature has taken care of efficiency very well indeed.

Plenty of people in UK live feed, just most won't admit it openly because others frown upon it.

A snake will usually kill a rodent in less than 30 seconds and render it unconscious within 15. I find this an acceptable level of suffering, if it's ok with nature then it's ok with me, my hands would still be clean since it's the snake that does the dirty work in a natural way. I find it more acceptable to give a snake a live prey item than to snap it's neck by my own hand. I also find it more acceptable to Co2 the food than snapping it's neck myself. I know people will say what about the rodent biting the snake... well that isn't the issue I'm addressing. I'm addressing the issue and morality behind killing rodents first and foremost.

I'd like to add that I don't take any satisfaction from the death of a rodent however it's done. I keep mice, rats and snakes and I respect them all equally but nature is what it is.


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## ZOO CENTRE

I think that IT IS NOT ILEGAL!

I understand that feeding by dead rodents is better and I try to use it but
if my snake does not want to eat dead rodent but live only than he will get live.
I will not be to wait when my snake will be dead!

I do not know some Law where it is prohibited.
The live rodents are natural snake food.


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## ZOO CENTRE

*Explanation*

*
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/588723-live-feeding-19.html#post7112629


The live feeding question comes up very often along with the one about selling feeder rodents from pet shops, here are my replies to them that I use very often, Hope they help.*
*Gordon Glasson*
*FBH VC*

*THE IS LIVE FEEDING LEGAL ANSWER*
I have a copy of a letter from DEFRA that was passed on to me (as Vice Chairman of the FBH) from a member of this forum answering a number of questions they had raised including about live feeding. The following is from the letter and may be of interest to every one.

Finally, the protection of Animals Acts 1911 to 1964 *do not prohibit the feeding of animals with live prey*, although the live feeding of vertebrate prey should be discouraged and avoided apart from in exceptional circumstances and then preferably only under veterinary advise. 
Where live prey must be used, feeding must be observed and its welfare must be considered as well as any potential injury which might be caused to the predator. 

The letter is signed by the MP Ben Bradshaw who was working on the new Animal Welfare bill for DFERA at the time.

Just for the record, I have only heard of the RSPCA bringing 1 prosecution against a pet shop. This related to the throwing of live mice in with their snakes while open to the public and that was many years ago. Recent claims along these lines appear to be urban myths (like the "it's illegal to live feed" one).
I have also been told by one of their exotics officers that it would be a brave inspector that tried to prosecute on a basic live feeding charge. 

I also know that the FBH have supplied DEFRA with a suggested code of practice for live feeding but as with so many CoP's we are still awaiting it being agreed to and rubber stamped.

*The it’s illegal to sell animals in a pet shop to be used as food answer
*Sorry but that is totally and completely wrong. 
The only regulation that effects a person buying a vertebrate from pet shops for use as food is the one stating it is illegal to sell an unweaned mammal. In a situation where a reptile is refusing F/T this can be got around by the shop giving pinkies, fluffs etc away without charge. 
While it may be a company rule, it certainly isn’t a UK law.
To expand things a little.
In the UK an animal is an animal. We do not label them as human food, pet food, pets or working animals. We also class them all as vertebrates and offer the same legal protection to all animals that come under this heading. This means that if it is legal to buy a chicken at a market to take home and kill for dinner, it is also legal to buy a chicken in a pet shop to take home and kill for dinner. Likewise as the law does not ban the use of feeding live vertebrates to a predator, it is just as legal to offer a giraffe to a lion as it is to offer a pinkie to leopard gecko. 
What the law does however state is that the animal being used as food should not be caused any suffering during the process. At the time of making the laws (according to Hansard) this was not aimed at anything that went on between predator and prey but was aimed at how the person in charge of them treated them. What it means is that if you go and legally buy a mouse to feed to your snake, you must look after it and avoid any unnecessary suffering up to the point you put it in with the snake. Basically you have to provide it with a suitable living space, food, water, bedding etc and not stick it in a jam jar until you need it tomorrow.
The reason this law does not apply to what happens between predator and prey is because human law only applies to humans. If this changed every time an animal killed another animal we would have to launch a murder hunt.


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## ayrton

I feed my snakes both live and frozen thawed rats I prefer live as it is natural in the wild they kill the mouse so why not in captivaty I don't feed my snakes live coz its fun but how can something that's frozen be better than something living if a mouse tries to bit a snake by what i have seen 9 times out of 10 it will not break the skin as it is very stretchie so if it is wrong to try and make a captive snakes life as natural as posable then I would like to know the resons why


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## vgorst

ayrton said:


> I feed my snakes both live and frozen thawed rats I prefer live as it is natural in the wild they kill the mouse so why not in captivaty I don't feed my snakes live coz its fun but how can something that's frozen be better than something living if a mouse tries to bit a snake by what i have seen 9 times out of 10 it will not break the skin as it is very stretchie so if it is wrong to try and make a captive snakes life as natural as posable then I would like to know the resons why


To be honest I think that the issue of feeding live or not should not be top of the list if you want to keep a snakes life as natural as possible (unless it is a non-feeder). If you want a snakes life to be 'natural' in captivity then how about providing suitable substrates and plants, varying temperatures throughout the day and between days, seasonal changes that they'd experience and providing a varied diet. As many people know, snakes wouldn't usually feed solely on rodents (if at all). 

I don't think live feeding can be compared to that which happens in the wild anyway. Of course stress will occur in both circumstances but in the wild, a rodent has the chance to escape. So being stuck with no escape in a box with a prey item is in fact not at all natural. Personally I would never feed an animal a live vertebrate (me being the sentimental type and would want to keep it as a pet). If your snake takes defrost, then feed it that. Live feeding should be kept as a *last* resort (and even then I still don't agree with it).

It's also a bit strange that this is your first post, it's about a touchy issue, and it's on a thread made a couple of years ago...


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## ayrton

vgorst said:


> To be honest I think that the issue of feeding live or not should not be top of the list if you want to keep a snakes life as natural as possible (unless it is a non-feeder). If you want a snakes life to be 'natural' in captivity then how about providing suitable substrates and plants, varying temperatures throughout the day and between days, seasonal changes that they'd experience and providing a varied diet. As many people know, snakes wouldn't usually feed solely on rodents (if at all).
> 
> I don't think live feeding can be compared to that which happens in the wild anyway. Of course stress will occur in both circumstances but in the wild, a rodent has the chance to escape. So being stuck with no escape in a box with a prey item is in fact not at all natural. Personally I would never feed an animal a live vertebrate (me being the sentimental type and would want to keep it as a pet). If your snake takes defrost, then feed it that. Live feeding should be kept as a *last* resort (and even then I still don't agree with it).
> 
> It's also a bit strange that this is your first post, it's about a touchy issue, and it's on a
> 
> 
> thread made a couple of years ago...



I do try to keep my vivs as natural as posable and putting a rat in a viv with no were to hide is just as natural as having a snake in a viv with no were to hunt and i agree it is not just about how you feed them it is more about there inviroment and i am new to the forum but I have had snakes all my life
I don't like the fact that people do it for fun that's sik I used to keep mice and my dad fen my favoret one to his snake but i got over it coz i liked the snake more and it was hungry


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## ayrton

I also feed my snake fish as well there always live


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## vgorst

ayrton said:


> putting a rat in a viv with no were to hide is just as natural as having a snake in a viv with no were to hunt


Not sure I understand your point



ayrton said:


> I don't like the fact that people do it for fun that's sik I used to keep mice and my dad fen my favoret one to his snake but i got over it coz i liked the snake more and it was hungry


It's good that you don't do it for 'fun' (I don't see how people enjoy that kind of thing) but if your snake takes defrost I would just stick with that. There are other ways to simulate a wild situation and encourage a feeding response, which I would try. And if my dad did that to one of my pets :censor::censor:


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## Mcadam1222

I myself do not agree in live feeding of rodents as I think it is one of the most cruel thing out, Putting a poor little mouse in a cage with a snake and the fear that the mouse must have going through it. As much as I love and keep reptiles, I just think that live feeding is an absolute last option.


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## ayrton

vgorst said:


> Not sure I understand your point
> 
> 
> if your snake takes defrost I would just stick with that. There are other ways to simulate a wild situation and encourage a feeding response, which I would try.


I meen it is more natural for the snake to find and kill its pray than to have a dead one in front of it 

It is what they do in the wild so it should stay that way I have never herd of a frozen rat being any better for the snake than a live one if they kill there pray is gives there brain some stimulation alot more than a dead one dangling in front of them


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## vgorst

You can stimulate their feeding behaviour with a defrost (obviously it's not the real thing) but you can try scent trails or moving the mouse as if it is alive. I understand that animals deserve enrichment in captive environments but I don't think it should be at the expense of another animal


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## ayrton

vgorst said:


> You can stimulate their feeding behaviour with a defrost (obviously it's not the real thing) but you can try scent trails or moving the mouse as if it is alive. I understand that animals deserve enrichment in captive environments but I don't think it should be at the expense of another animal


Well it is at the expense of another animal coz a rat still dies and you could but the animal do sent get the same feeling as a hunt like you wouldnt go hunting but put a dead rabit there to shoot you would find a live one and kill that


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## dunctonhams

ayrton said:


> the animal do sent get the same feeling as a hunt


I can't give statistics myself since I don't keep snakes, but have seen a number of feeding videos on YouTube etc. 

It seems to me that many, (but not all), snakes will strike at and constrict dead prey in the same way that they would live prey. This suggests to me that, for some snakes at least, their response to dead prey in captivity is the same as it would be to live prey in the wild. What goes on in their heads is anyone's guess, but the behaviour is the same. By measurable standards, then, for such individual snakes "live" and "dead" prey are equivalent.

I am not quite sure why the comparison is made to the "feeling" that a human gets from hunting with a snake taking prey. As a human, I do not understand what it must feel like to constrict or envenomate my food, nor do I have any desire to swallow whole dead rodents. A snake would presumably not wish to eat what I do either, nor would it, I assume, understand the concept of cooking.

If one must compare snakes to humans with regard to hunting, a wild snake, hunting wild prey, is in a natural environment, but a captive snake taking live captive prey is not. If you want to compare humans hunting to snake feeding, wouldn't the equivalent comparison for a human therefore be a canned hunt, where an animal, (lion, antelope etc), is released into an enclosed area for a hunter to shoot at? I would hazard a guess that the aim in such instances is for the human to gain atrophy head or hide with the minimum effort, discomfort or risk to themselves. I would argue that, in a similar way, the "aim" of the snake in taking prey is to satisfy their hunger with as little effort, discomfort and risk to themselves - even if this includes taking already killed prey.

One could argue, ad absurdum, that if a predator MUST kill it's own prey to be fully satisfied and happy, supermarkets should stop stocking dog and cat food, (and meat), and stock live animals instead. That way dogs, cats and humans can have the satisfaction of killing their own cow/ pig/ rabbit/ mouse etc.

May I close by saying that while I don't agree with indiscriminate live feeding, ("for fun"), I do accept that it is necessary for some snakes which will not take dead prey. I remain sceptical, however, that a snake is stimulated in measurably different ways by the kind of enrichment suggested earlier in the thread, (scent trails etc), and a live rodent. The main difference I can see, assuming the snake will take both dead and live prey, is this; live rodents can potentially fight back and harm the snake.


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## Natrix

ayrton said:


> Well it is at the expense of another animal coz a rat still dies and you could but the animal do sent get the same feeling as a hunt like you wouldnt go hunting but put a dead rabit there to shoot you would find a live one and kill that


ayrton

Live feeding is legal as a method to get non feeding snakes feeding. 

The main law that affects this is the one that says you must avoid causing *unnecessary suffering*. If your snake will only take live, the feeding of a live rodent is acceptable as you are avoiding the snake suffering unnecessarily and the suffering of the rodent is necessary to achieve this.

If your snake will take frozen/thawed rats then you have no excuse in law for feeding it a live rodent and it is clearly a case of causing unnecessary suffering to the rodent. If caught you would be found guilty in court.

There is no research currently that suggests snakes gain anything from killing their own prey but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that snakes can be injured by a prey item if the prey item gets a chance to bite back.

If you are worried about the slightly decreased nutritional value of frozen rodents then treat yourself to a gas chamber, kill the rodents humanely yourself and offer your snakes freash killed food.

With respect, I would suggest you re-think your feeding methods.

Gordon Glasson
Vice Chairman
Federation of British Herpetologists.


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## DaveWillisHertsARG

*Live feeding;sub-optimal*

I have had very little experience of live-feeding, however, I have recently (5 months ago) acquired a young Turkish Sand boa (_Eryx jaculus turcicus_) which stubbornly refuses all alternatives to live rodents. As I breed mice, I am able to supply a steady stream of pinkies. These are left with the snake in a separate tub and he takes them, usually overnight. Pinkies do not have teeth, so damage is not an issue, but this will change as prey size increases. I am therefore still experimenting with ways to encourage feeding on F/T.

It is probably important to distinguish between the 'Youtubers' et al. gleefully filming the death-throes of some poor animal tossed into a (usually sub-optimal) enclosure with a reptile, and the measured and, even, respectful offering of live animals as a medical necessity.

Prosecutions are unlikely, so this is an issue for our consciences. Ethical issues aside, the use of live rodents is (potentially) costly, time-consuming, distressing (especially for non-herpers in the household) and even risky. There is no convincing evidence for significant enrichment (many species of snake will, in fact, scavenge) and many arguments against unless necessary.


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## ayrton

With every snake I have ever seen eat there is a big difrence in the way they eat live and dead mice and i haven't been done for feeding my snakes live yet so i dout I am going to and i will not be getting a gas chamber coz y is that eny better for the rat


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## n3crophile

you should just try wiggling the dead mouse about and making mouse noises. pretty much alive. my snake definitely thinks they are! o all the fun without any remorse


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## ayrton

Non of my snakes have ever responded to that in the same way they do live I have tried


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## Yemen

Charisma_Love said:


> I heard somewhere that feeding live mice/rats to snakes in the UK was illegal...is this true?


Well if you breed them and don't get busted then it should be fine


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## wilkinss77

ayrton said:


> I feed my snakes both live and frozen thawed rats I prefer live as it is natural in the wild they kill the mouse so why not in captivaty I don't feed my snakes live coz its fun but how can something that's frozen be better than something living if a mouse tries to bit a snake by what i have seen 9 times out of 10 it will not break the skin as it is very stretchie so if it is wrong to try and make a captive snakes life as natural as posable then I would like to know the resons why


sorry, but that's just not true about snakes being impervious to rodent bites- they can, will, & have inflicted horrific, & often fatal bites on snakes- & that's not theoretical or allegorical- there are many cases of it happening for real, including pics of the results posted on this forum. it is a very real danger, & one not worth risking unless your snakes refuse dead prey. & as for live feeding being more natural, many snakes will eat dead prey in the wild.


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## ayrton

wilkinss77 said:


> sorry, but that's just not true about snakes being impervious to rodent bites- they can, will, & have inflicted horrific, & often fatal bites on snakes- & that's not theoretical or allegorical- there are many cases of it happening for real, including pics of the results posted on this forum. it is a very real danger, & one not worth risking unless your snakes refuse dead prey. & as for live feeding being more natural, many snakes will eat dead prey in the wild.


I know they can get hurt but most pray bites I have seen they don't brake the skin


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## AOTP

Its simple really, if you got no other choice or have a reptile that really is more active vs the live prey, then do it, but dont tell your friends, mouth off to your neighbour or video it for youtube, as that would draw attention and make you look like a tool. 

If people know then various authorities can be called to mess with your day. What people know doesnt hurt them so. . . yeah if it has to be done, dont advertise it! : victory:


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