# 6 month old Leopard gecko lays eggs! HELP!



## TomSimpson94 (Mar 2, 2013)

Hi everyone. 
I've had my Leopard Gecko for about a week and a half now and she's the first Lizard I've ever got. When I got her she was about 6 months old, but it turns out she was pregnant! She wasn't eating and she was very grumpy at first and she threw up a couple of times. I assumed it was down to moving locations or that she was shedding. She laid two eggs yesterday in her wet box, which is filled with moss. Thank God I had my best friend round, who's really good with lizards, when I found them! Total coincidence! We built a quick incubation box and but them in right way up and all that. The box is a Chinese takeaway tub with 10 pin holes in the top for air and a layer of wet moss on the bottom. It's warmed by the heat of the light in my Gecko's viv because the incubator's sat on top. I am however going to buy a heat mat today. I've followed my friend's advice and done what he's said, but I'm on this site to double check I'm doing everything right. The eggs were totally unexpected and I'm 50/50 sure whether I want them or not, but also my friend said that it's about 50/50 whether the eggs will survive with the mother being only 6 months old and a little underweight herself. 

Please let me know how I'm doing and correct me if I'm doing anything wrong! And do not hesitate to ask me more about my situation. I'm read the hand book I've got and done some research and as far as I'm aware I'm doing everything okay.

Thanks very much


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## LovLight (Apr 14, 2012)

In all honesty lovely as horrible as it sounds I would not incubate the eggs. As a new owner with a leo that obviously needs a lot of care and attention I believe it would be best to concentrate all efforts and indeed funds if required on her to get her back to peak physical form. 
The extra food/heating costs and possible vetinary costs for hatchling care as well as the extra equipment you will need can quickly mount up and given the age and condition of your girl it is not unthinkable that she will herself maybe require some treatment(at the very least a full screen fecal test)which will also cost. You have to think very carefully as to whether you are able to take on the extra expense as well as the extra time and commitment that hatchlings will demand before chosing to incubate as if successful the hatchlings would need to remain in your care for several months before you could rehome them. She may also continue to lay several more clutches which is also something you need to consider. 
First things first, can you give a run down of her set up including temps and your suppliment regime please? To ensure everything is as it should be to reduce her stress.



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## Artisan (Mar 27, 2011)

I would follow lovlights advice and not incubate the eggs as you dont know what the father was or if he had any health issues/parasites etc. Also the hatchlings may be ill so as said...need the vets.
I myself have found myself in this possible situation with a leo bought recently that may be gravid....I have decided to dispose of the eggs to concentrate on the health and fitness of my current Leo's.
You would need a ploystyrene box/heat mat/thermostat/digital thermometer and the know how to make a proper incubator anyway as you need specific temps for incubating eggs which works out quite costly for all those things....can you afford all this and possible vet fees/food/electric bills/several new set ups for the new babies for the coming months, not to mention the time and attention them and mum wiill need from you to get her back to hewlth and good fom: victory:


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## Google Astaroth (Jan 17, 2013)

Agree entirely with the above 2 posts. The extra time/money that a clutch of babies will demand will be pretty high. Concentrate on your female, and once you know you can afford both the time/money/space to a clutch of babies, then you can make the plunge into breeding. The father is unknown and as mentioned above, could have had some issues.


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## LovLight (Apr 14, 2012)

A few things you can do for your existing leo to help her through this stressful time would be to ensure she has a calcium cap in her viv at all times if she does not already? I use Repashy calcium plus which I believe to be the best on the market you can purchase this here www.repashy.co.uk or www.lilyexotics.co.uk this will eliminate any guess work as to calcium/nutrobal/D3 ratios as its an all in one product that can be used at every feed time and also in the vivarium. I would also purchase a tub of reptoboost to add to her water bowl. This will help replace any lost electrolytes and aid hydration, it can also help boost her appetite a little although as she is laying its not unusual for her to be off her food. When she does eat however it is of the absolute most importance that the food on offer is properly gutloaded! You can either buy a commercially produced gutload such as the repashy brand which is available at the above links or make your own using whole cereals such as bran, oats, cat biscuits for protien etc. and suppliment this with fresh fruit and veg every other day. Do not leave mealworms in her dish for days on end. Replace them daily as with all offered livefoods for freshly gutloaded ones to give the best nutrition. I would also get a full fecal screen done as soon as is possible to establish that there are no underlying health problems.

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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Totally agree with all of the above. It is possible that these eggs are actually non fertalised eggs. Young leos can produce eggs even though they havent been with a male. Often the eggs will develop inside the geckos belly then get reabsorbed before they are laid. Hopefully thats the case here and any further clutches will be reabsorbed. If she does lay more I would not incubate them for the reasons already listed and the likely hood of very weak hatchlings.
As already said full details of your setup would help ensure your leo is kept in optimal conditions. It would be wise to weigh her. She is going to need a lot of support. Top quality gut loaded food and the best supplementation. Repashy calcium plus is by far the best. Im afraid your little un faces an uphill struggle. The move to her new home will have put her into a period of relocation stress. Add to that the rigours of egg production and she has a challenging time ahead. However she can get through this and many membersvon here will help and guide you. Dont be alarmed by this, with good support, a bit of tlc, your gecko should be fine.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

I have to say that there is absoulutely nothing to siggest that the hatchlings would be weak or ill. That is totally counter productive to a reptilian species. These animals are "desinged" or evolved to produce healthy, viable offspring at an early age. The very fact that your gecko was able to lay eggs is an indication that she is indeed ready to reproduce. In most cases, a reptile will not produce eggs if it is not healthy enough to do so. In captivity, WE tell the animals what to do. What we tell them to do and what they should do and are actually able to do are two different things.

I personally see no problem with you incubating the eggs if they are indeed fertile. That is if you want to incubate them. Do not let people talk you out of it with unfounded information and scare tactics. You do not have to incubate them if you do not wish to but let it be your choice. And the age of the female does not mean that the eggs will only have a 50/50 chance of hatching. If they are fertile and you incubated them correctly, they will have no less chance of hatching that if they were laid by an older female.

The funny thing is, when I started breeding leopard geckos, breeders generally started breeding females between 35 and 40 grams without any health issues. For some odd reason, the "acceptable" breeding weight seems to go up every couple of years. It is strande considering that 35 to 40 gram females lay eggs that are just as fertile and strong as a 50 to 60 gram female would lay. 

Your female will be fine. All you need to do is offer proper husbandry to support her metabolic needs. Proper feeding, hydration and heating is all she needs. This is a very natural thing to happen and she should not need any extra support.

With all that being said, I would not be shocked if your gecko is a bit older than 6 months old.

Also, parasites are not passed to eggs.


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## TomSimpson94 (Mar 2, 2013)

Thanks for all the help guys! 

I'm going to keep them and see what happens really. Money and time is not an issue at the moment as I'm my own boss essentially. I'm going to keep the eggs in the incubator I described in the post and as I've gotten a heat mat for them the temperature is at around 25 Degrees C and still rising and I understand that 31 is roughly the correct temperature. 

I bought some more things today to improve the mother's viv; bigger hiding places, replaces wood chips with sand for the substrate and more monitoring equipment for temp and that. I also gave her a little bowl with a single wax worm in it with the intention of giving her one a week to feed her up a little as she looks underweight as said before. I've always had a bowl of calcium power which she is very fond of. On the 'hot' side the temperature is 31 degrees C and on the 'cool' side it's 25, which from my understanding is perfect!

I believe I am doing all I can for the mother and I agree with Gregg that she wouldn't have laid eggs if she wasn't fit enough. Other sources tell me that she wouldn't have laid them if she thought they were infertile either- she did seem to put a lot of effort into the nest before she laid them. 

The father was in the viv with her in the reptile shop, so I assume he was healthy. My mother (who was with me when I bought it) is sure the male was not a leopard gecko, but I disagree with her and believe it was but neither of us can really remember!

And as said, it hasn't cost me much money or time make the incubator and make sure it's suitable, from what I know anyway. As said I am new to everything and it was all very sudden. I will not be too upset if the eggs don't hatch and have not yet decided on what to do with them if they do. 

I think I'm doing everything I can, but again, let me more if I'm not or if I'm doing anything wrong!

All of you have been really helpful.

thanks


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Gregg a novice keeper close to us purchased animals in similar condition last season. I met him after both females had died. They were gravid immature females riddled with parasites, malnourished and of course with the added complication of relocation stress. The lad got prompt support from a highly experienced herp vet but the geckos succumbed to the rigours of egg production combined with stress and parasite load. I agree geckos of a young age that have been kept in optimal condition, fed a good diet and appropriate supplementation without overwhelming parasite load can produce healthy hatchlings. However geckos that are unfit to breed can also produce eggs. This animal hasnt come from optimal conditions. Many shops dont bother with gutloading food or even provide basic supplements. Some shops ofer very little in the way of nutrition.
Just out of interest, how long are pinworm eggs viable outside thr body ? They may not get passed through the egg but they can certainly be on the surface of the egg. Both the pinwom egg and the animals egg pass through the same orifice. If they can survive the wam humid environment of the incubator it wouldnt be too unrealistic to think the emergent hatchling with a flick of the tongue could ingest them.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Mal said:


> Gregg a novice keeper close to us purchased animals in similar condition last season. I met him after both females had died. They were gravid immature females riddled with parasites, malnourished and of course with the added complication of relocation stress. The lad got prompt support from a highly experienced herp vet but the geckos succumbed to the rigours of egg production combined with stress and parasite load.


But that has nothing to do with incubating the eggs once laid. How would incubating eggs take away from the care of the gecko who laid them. This is what I am not getting. The female is already laying the eggs so she needs great care . A gecko not laying eggs needs great care. Discouraging the OP from incubating the eggs that are being laid makes no sence. 

Just a side note. If the geckos were able to become gravid, they were not immature. At that point, they are adults. We as keepers make up what is or is not mature. The actual facts and the cycle of these reptiles does not seem to agree with our idea of whats what.



Mal said:


> I agree geckos of a young age that have been kept in optimal condition, fed a good diet and appropriate supplementation without overwhelming parasite load can produce healthy hatchlings. However geckos that are unfit to breed can also produce eggs. This animal hasnt come from optimal conditions. Many shops dont bother with gutloading food or even provide basic supplements. Some shops ofer very little in the way of nutrition.


Reptiles generally do not produce clutches unless they are in good breeding shape. Also, the eggs will be produced with what they need to support the growing embryo no matter what shape the female is in. And being that the OPs geck was gravid when the OP got it, how do we know the gecko is in bad shape. It could have just lost some weight because of the egg production. That is normal.



Mal said:


> Just out of interest, how long are pinworm eggs viable outside thr body ? They may not get passed through the egg but they can certainly be on the surface of the egg. Both the pinwom egg and the animals egg pass through the same orifice. If they can survive the wam humid environment of the incubator it wouldnt be too unrealistic to think the emergent hatchling with a flick of the tongue could ingest them.


In the best conditions, pin worm eggs will only live for 2 weeks without being ingested by a host so, yes, it is indeed unrealistic to think they would be transfered to hatchlings that are just coming out of the egg after 50 something days of incubation.

This is what I mean about giving advice without having actual facts that go along with it. Some of the information given out on reptile forums is just bazzar to me because the huge majority of it has no supporting facts. It is just random opinon based on, I dont know what.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Gregg, my post relating to the demise of underweight,young (what many would consider underage) and parasite loaded gecko was in response to your statement. ' *In most cases, a reptile will not produce eggs if it is not healthy enough to do so*. ' Geckos can and do produce eggs even though they are in far from optimal health. Many species of animal will produce young even though their health is compromised and this does unfortunately in some instances have a negative impact on embryo development and the health of offspring. 

My comments about pinworm if you look carried a question mark. I havent come across much information that gives a definative answer to the survival times of pinworm eggs in a warm moist incubation chamber. It may be considerably different to the lifespan in a dry environment. *If *its a prolonged period then yes, there is a risk of hatchlings ingesting pinworm eggs. *If *its only two weeks, fine, risk negated. That is providing the hatchlings dont emerge in proximity to a clutch that was laid in the two weeks prior to hatch day. 

If I was unsure whether an animal had been in receipt of adequate nourishment, vitamin and mineral supplementation, if it was carrying a parasite load, I wouldnt incubate. Simple, but thats just my humble opinion.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Mal said:


> Many species of animal will produce young even though their health is compromised and this does unfortunately in some instances have a negative impact on embryo development and the health of offspring.


I said generally reptiles will not produce eggs if they are not in condition to do so. Again, what we conside optimal condition and what is actually optimal condition are two different things. There is no evidence anywhere to support what you are saying about embryo health from a female who is in what WE consider not so great breeding condition. In mammals, I can inderstand this being an issue. But even then, a growing fetus is rarely if ever affected. Eggs are self supporting and they take all they need before they are calcified and laid.

I have plenty of experience with gravid WC imports to know that the condition of the egg laying female does not affect the offspring. At least it never has in my experience. I have had many WC imports come in gravid and loaded with parasites.



Mal said:


> If I was unsure whether an animal had been in receipt of adequate nourishment, vitamin and mineral supplementation, if it was carrying a parasite load, I wouldnt incubate. Simple, but thats just my humble opinion.


That is a choice you make. And that is fine. However there is really no reason to not incubate the eggs. Like I said, it just makes no sence not to incubate them. The female is going through the proccess so it might as well not be for nothing. I think any viable eggs should be incubated if the own choses to do so. 

Being over cautious can be a problem. It has already gotten to the point where many of these animals are being kept at very limited temperature and humidity gradients and are not able to perform even some of the most basic of natural behaviors. They have been reduced down to living on lino for christ sake. Instead of offering the right husbandry so they can be kept on loose substrates safely, they are kept in limited conditions and not given the chance to be a gecko.


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## Madhouse5 (Jun 6, 2011)

Greg some of the points you make are good in that case how would you house leopard geckos and would you make say a very large viv and put a number of females in I would be interested in how you think it should be done 

Paul


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## LovLight (Apr 14, 2012)

Gregg M said:


> I said generally reptiles will not produce eggs if they are not in condition to do so. Again, what we conside optimal condition and what is actually optimal condition are two different things. There is no evidence anywhere to support what you are saying about embryo health from a female who is in what WE consider not so great breeding condition. In mammals, I can inderstand this being an issue. But even then, a growing fetus is rarely if ever affected. Eggs are self supporting and they take all they need before they are calcified and laid.
> 
> I have plenty of experience with gravid WC imports to know that the condition of the egg laying female does not affect the offspring. At least it never has in my experience. I have had many WC imports come in gravid and loaded with parasites.
> 
> ...


There is a very simple reason that advice was given not to incubate these eggs and it has nothing to do with any arguments that can be made about optimal conditioning, embryo health or how a gecko would or would not react in a wild setting. The advice offered by myself, Artisan and Mal I believe was done so as if you read the OP's post he has had this gecko for a mere week and a half and it is his first lizard! 
I have been keeping leopard geckos for about 3 and a half years. I decided that breeding was maybe somthing that would interest me after my first year keeping and I then began my first tentative steps researching exactly what that would entail and if I was indeed capable of undertaking this task. After my second year I was sure that breeding was something that I wanted to do and have since spent the past 18months researching and preparing for this my first season breeding-I am a novice!-despite my research and preparations I know there are still variables that can occur that may throw me and I may require assistance, but because I have had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with my animals and familiarise myself with each individuals behaviour and temperament I am confident that should anything go awry I have a better than average chance to spot it. The OP has not yet had this time to establish a familiarity with his new pet. I am also confident because of the time I have taken to research hatchling care and the amount of my time they will require, that I am prepared for it. As I am that I have a good network of support from the excellent breeders and keepers I have met through the course of my research. All of this has taken time, time I chose to spend but despite this time I am still a novice but I am a novice prepared for the path ahead of me!
To advise a new keeper with a week and a halfs experience in the hobby to incubate eggs from a female who in his own words is underweight(even a novice can see skinny) of unknown health and has mated with an unknown male can only be described as irresponsible. This is in know way a comment as to the OP's itelligence or capabilities it is merely a fact. I would offer the same advice to anyone who found themselves in the same situation as I do not believe that anyone who walks into a reptile store or a pets at home and comes away with a more often than not poorly bred, poorly fed and poorly supplimented pet gecko should have to find themselves in the position of having a pregnant animal to deal with. It is massively irresponsible of the people who sold this animal so to continue that irresponsibility to my mind makes no sense. 
I wish the OP all the best in restoring his new lil leo to good health and would happily offer any assisstance I can. However I cannot and do not agree that in this instance incubating these eggs or any future eggs this female may lay is a responsible decision.

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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

LovLight said:


> I have been keeping leopard geckos for about 3 and a half years. I decided that breeding was maybe somthing that would interest me after my first year keeping and I then began my first tentative steps researching exactly what that would entail and if I was indeed capable of undertaking this task. After my second year I was sure that breeding was something that I wanted to do and have since spent the past 18months researching and preparing for this my first season breeding-I am a novice!-despite my research and preparations I know there are still variables that can occur that may throw me and I may require assistance, but because I have had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with my animals and familiarise myself with each individuals behaviour and temperament I am confident that should anything go awry I have a better than average chance to spot it.


This is all well and good. But we are talking about leopard geckos here. They are very easy to keep, very easy to breed, easy to hatch, and easy to raise. ANYONE can do it. These geckos live well and thrive in minimal conditions. Lets face it, the common suggested way to keep these geckos is indeed minimal. When I got into keeping leopard geckos, I bought an adult pair and bred them 4 months after I got them. Everything went smoothly.

It is cool that you wanted to take all that extra time to "research" but not everyone needs to do what you do. In fact, I think what you did was a bit overkill and you could have obtained all the info you needed to be able to successfully breed, hatch, and raise leopard geckos in a couple of weeks to be honest. You are also looking at them as "individuals". Yes, they are individual animals BUT they all do the exact same thing when it comes to hard wired instinctive mechanisms. 



LovLight said:


> The OP has not yet had this time to establish a familiarity with his new pet. I am also confident because of the time I have taken to research hatchling care and the amount of my time they will require, that I am prepared for it.


What is so different about hatchling care compared to adult care? Aside from prey size, what is so different. Time has nothing to do with anyrhing. That is an irrelevant factor to add. Everything we do in life takes time.



LovLight said:


> As I am that I have a good network of support from the excellent breeders and keepers I have met through the course of my research. All of this has taken time, time I chose to spend but despite this time I am still a novice but I am a novice prepared for the path ahead of me!


Why do some people make this out to be some huge undertaking that is full of burden? It is simple. You are taking care of animals that are easy to take care of. They do what they do natually when you allow them to. There is no huge path ahead of you. It is not a mystical journey. It is reptile breeding and we do it because we love it and want to do it.



LovLight said:


> To advise a new keeper with a week and a halfs experience in the hobby to incubate eggs from a female who in his own words is underweight(even a novice can see skinny) of unknown health and has mated with an unknown male can only be described as irresponsible.


But incubating eggs this female is laying already has nothing to do with properly caring for this female. If someone said to continue to breed this female, I would agree. That would be irresonsible. However, the female was gotten while gravid so she will be laying the eggs no matter what. What is the actual harm in incubating them? How will this affect the female laying the eggs? And what does an unknown male have to do with anything? Are you talking genetics wise? If so, are you 100% sure of the history of all your geckos? You can never be.

I will give you an example. of my own experience. My very first pet snake was a red sided garter I found in my yard when I was about 8 or 9. Where I live they are not a native species. It was someones pet before I found it. I set it up as I was told to by a snake keeping neighbor. A week later there were a dozen neonate garters in the cage when I woke up one morning. Should I have killed all the neonates? Ofcorse not. I raised them with the help of my parents. We were able to sell off the offspring. I held a male over for myself and bred them myself 2 years after.



LovLight said:


> This is in know way a comment as to the OP's itelligence or capabilities it is merely a fact.


Really? If I were the OP, I would take it as a comment towards my intelligence and capabilities.



LovLight said:


> I would offer the same advice to anyone who found themselves in the same situation as I do not believe that anyone who walks into a reptile store or a pets at home and comes away with a more often than not poorly bred, poorly fed and poorly supplimented pet gecko should have to find themselves in the position of having a pregnant animal to deal with.


I agree, they should not have to be in that situation. But it happens. Telling someone not to incubate the eggs makes no sense though. One has nothing to do with the other.



LovLight said:


> It is massively irresponsible of the people who sold this animal so to continue that irresponsibility to my mind makes no sense.
> I wish the OP all the best in restoring his new lil leo to good health and would happily offer any assisstance I can.


I agree 100%. You are a self proclaimed novice yourself so do you think you should be the one giving advice and offering assistance? Just a question, not a dig.



LovLight said:


> However I cannot and do not agree that in this instance incubating these eggs or any future eggs this female may lay is a responsible decision..


So again, why? Can you tell me what negative effect or impact it will have on the female who is laying the eggs? What is the actual harm in trying to incubate the eggs she is going to lay anyway? I do not want to hear about parasites or that the female is not fit. Parasites are not transfered on or through the eggs and the female will still lay the eggs and her fitness will not affect the growing embryos in their self sustained eggs. Those are facts.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Unfortunately it wont let me copy and paste so I will give the link. 
Medicine and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles - Google Books 

I know the subject title is Tortoises and Turtles but the section entitled Maternal Nutrition also discusses reptiles in general. Its concluding statement is as follows.

_Until we learn more about specific nutrient requirements for individual species of reptile, late embryonic death due to maternal nutritional deficiency should be considered to be quite likely_. 

Clearly the nutritional status of the female can effect the embryo inside the egg.

http://netvet.wustl.edu/species/reptiles/pough.txt

The nutritional status of a female reptile during oogenesis or pregnancy and the environment in which eggs are reared can affect characters of the clutch and of the offspring. In laboratory studies of viviparous and oviparous snakes the ratio of clutch mass (eggs or embryos) to female body mass remained constant under different feeding regimes, with the result that absolute reproductive effort (grams of offspring per female) was proportional to energy intake (Ford and Siegel, 1989; 1991). That is, females that were well fed during oogenesis produced larger litters than did females that received less food. In these experiments, only the number of offspring responded to maternal nutritional status, *but in some species of reptiles the size and viability of the offspring might be affected.*

Further reading, and maternal deficiency o Vitamin A has been seen as a cause of opthalmic defects in hatchling.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Here are some important words in your quote.

First word is LIKELY
Second word is MIGHT



Mal said:


> _Until we learn more about specific nutrient requirements for individual species of reptile, late embryonic death due to maternal nutritional deficiency should be considered to be quite likely_.


Ok, so if this is indeed true and an embryo will die in the egg if the female is deficient, where is the harm in trying to incubate the eggs? This is what I am getting at here. 

Beside that, there is still nothing to suggest that is what will cause an embryo to fail. There was another important factor mentioned and that is where the eggs are "reared". I would say that factor is a much better candidate for causing and embryo to fail.



Mal said:


> That is, females that were well fed during oogenesis produced larger litters than did females that received less food. In these experiments, only the number of offspring responded to maternal nutritional status, *but in some species of reptiles the size and viability of the offspring might be affected.*


This quote stands to reason. However, we are not talking about clutch size here. And the scentence you have in bold is pretty telling that there is nothing to suggest that viability is actually affected. The word "might" means they dont actually know. We "might" get invaded by aliens from another world. It does not mean it is going to happen.



Mal said:


> Further reading, and maternal deficiency o Vitamin A has been seen as a cause of opthalmic defects in hatchling.


Actually you have more of a chance of seeing birth defects when there is too much vit A than if there is too little. 

So, again, please explain how incubating these eggs will affect the female who laid them.

I am not trying to fight with you Mal. I respect you a lot. I just dont see how attempting to incubate these eggs will do any harm.


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## blabble182 (Dec 26, 2010)

incase you hadnt noticed OP most things we can turn into a very lengthy debate eventually ignoring you  its the way the forum works 

personally id say its up to you with the eggs. just be prepared if they are not healthy when they hatch, and keep them seperate. for now concertrate on getting your girls fat levels back up, plenty of calcium inside her, calciworms are really good for this if you can get hold of them. if she doesnt respond well to feeding etc and gets lethargic or similar take her to a decent vet and have her checked over

good luck with the eggs


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