# So tired... orphan



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It happened again, abandonment of an APH. Mum killed two of the babies and was attacking this one when I heard the squeals. Mum is going to be retired now as some hedgehogs just don't seem to take to being parents and this is the 2nd time she has killed/abandoned her litter. This time it was at approx 4 days old, so a bit better than starting at day one like last time, but not fantastic  Last time I handreared until 6 days but he just faded away.

So I am handrearing "Timmy", who's chances are slim to none, he is on day 3 with me now so 7 days old .

He weighed 26g at 4 days, 26g at 5 days, but 28g this morning which is positive, at day 1 my last handreared baby weighed 10g, and dropped to 6g before he passed despite the feeding regime, which shows the difference that even 4 days on mums milk can make to start them off.

I'm so tired because he needs feeding every 2 hours day and night and I have to walk into work for a 2 hour shift to walk home again in time to feed him - more demanding than a baby!! I am a walking zombie!

Anyway, wish orphan "Timmy" good luck, he has very little hope of surviving but I'm giving him the best I can.


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## Exotica (Sep 26, 2008)

:grouphug: GOOD LUCK TIMMY :grouphug:

hes sooooo cute :flrt:


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## ichis-mom (May 25, 2008)

Fingers toes etc all crossed for lil timmy 
you can send him to me id gladly hand rear him but you wouldnt get him back again :lol2: :flrt::flrt::flrt:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Awwwwwwwww christy hun  

good luck an everything is crossed for you and this lil baby 


come on timmy you can do it :flrt:


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

Come on Timmy, you can do it! 

Well done to you athravan, you are a star x


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Oooh!! Good luck! *fingers crossed*


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry to hear this Christy, apart from being tired, you must feel very despondent that your hedgie just doesn't seem to be a good mother - what a shame!

Good luck and keep us advised of how it's going. My smallest squirrel only weighed 28g when I took him on. So think positive!

Fingers and everything else crossed.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Ach you don't need sleep. It is an old wives tale. Think positive hehe.
Hope the little hedge-pig survives though.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

*wonders if anyone nearish to christy has a litter the same age that may be able to foster the baby*


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

I know how tired you are. My girl had her second litter of hoglets and rejected one of them. She was fine with her first litter! I've been handrearing her from 2 days old and she was 5 weeks old on Wednesday. She was 11g when i took her on.
What are you feeding her and how much at a time?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

han said:


> I know how tired you are. My girl had her second litter of hoglets and rejected one of them. She was fine with her first litter! I've been handrearing her from 2 days old and she was 5 weeks old on Wednesday. She was 11g when i took her on.
> What are you feeding her and how much at a time?


I'm feeding "welpi" at the moment but I also have cimicat, some people have told me they have less bloat with welpi but I just don't know which is best really. He's not eating much at a time at the moment, it's hard to tell how much because half of it spills out of his mouth!

Any hints/tips would be greatly appreciated.


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

The mix that i am using was recommended by a friend who has also used it with success.
A mixture of goats milk and infacol (For those who don't know, it's an infant colic drop readily available from boots. It is a sweet flavour so the hogs love it!) Infacol was recommended to my friend by her vet!
I started off feeding her every 3 hours, and she would always want some milk at each feed. She started off on 0.3ml of the milk mix, and i just upped it as i went along. Had to go by my judgement with increasing the milk.
The best way i found and was recommended, was to just gently drip a bit on to her lips to get her to lick it off.
I know how hard it is, and how worrying it is. Bloat was and still is my worst worry. All you can do, is massage, massage and massage his belly. Along with worrying i would give her too much or squirt it in to her lungs. When i was worried that she had bloat, i fed her the infacol neat. Along with a couple drops of very very watered down milk so she didn't get dehydrated.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, or if you have noticed it, but if he has taken any milk, you should notice a 'milk band' on the right hand side of his stomach.
This is my little Angel a few days old...









And last weekend at 4 and a half weeks old...

















She still only weighs 30-31g, but she has developed in every way she should. Just a lot slower than the others.
I know the hard bit isn't over yet, as i still have to wean her. But i'm not going to start that for another week and a half yet, when she is 7 weeks old.
Her siblings are weaned, and i know she should be if she had been raised normally, but she hasn't been. And i am in no rush. I would rather feed her milk longer, but have more of a chance that her digestive system is developed enough to handle solids, than risk losing her.

You know the saying 'Slow and steady wins the race'.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Big hugs for you and the little one, I really hope he makes it.

Make sure you get some sleep when you can.

I had a litter of 4 day old staffies to hand rear and I found this bottle the best

https://www.petplanet.co.uk/product_review.asp?dept_id=442&pf_id=3686

Dont know if your little one is big enough for it, but the teats are quite small.


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## XxkakashixX (Sep 22, 2008)

GOOOOOOOOOO good luck!!! go timmy!!!


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Forgot to say Han your baby is just :flrt:I hope she continues to grow big and strong. And if and when she does end up looking for a home please keep me in mind : )


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

awww poor babies, i hope they make it.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Han, that little baby is fabulous!! And you're doing so well! 

I was going to suggest goats milk Christy! To be honest we feed all our orphans at the wildlife sanctuary on it. I would buy a carton which you can buy nowadays at any of the major supermarkets. It freezes well and I think it keeps fresh for about 4 days, so when I brought it home I froze most of it in ice cube bags and used the remainder until the 4 days were up. Then I defrosted as many cubes as I needed

When I was feeding the squirrels, I fed them on goats milk, with ABIDEC baby vitamins and pro-biotic yoghurt to help the gut flora. I fed them with a 1ml diabetic syringe with a small size orphan feeding teat on the end and it certainly worked for them.

I made up a batch using ¼ pint of goats milk, 2-3 drops Abidec and one teaspon of yoghurt, mixed well and stored in the fridge. Then I would put a couple of teaspoons into a little pyrex bowl over a ramekin of hot water to warm it. After 24 hours I threw away what was left and made up a new mix.

Can I just say that if ever you suspect dehydration, not to give watered down milk, but to replace one feed a day with a rehydation fluid - it just works better. If you haven't got an electrolyte sachet handy you can make your own rehydration solution.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I've bought the infacol suggested by Han, and I will get some goat's milk tomorrow, my local only had semi skimmed goats milk and I assume they want whole so will go to a bigger tesco in the morning and ask on the pharmacy counter about the abidec. My vets were pretty useless to be honest!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, you do need to feed the full-cream goats milk and you should be able to buy ABIDEC on the shelves where the children's food and vitamin stuff is - if not definitely you can buy it at Boots.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah you can get it at boots, we used to get Reece's from Asda from the pharmacy section. (presuming not all of the stores have one though).

Hope the little ones both pull through for you ladies, you're both doing a wonderful job.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I started him on the goats milk + abidec + infacol yesterday morning, his poop is a bit runnier at the moment but that might just be because of the change I hope, I am keeping an eye on it though.

He certainly seems to like the taste, and I am now pretty much getting up in the night, warming the milk & feeding in my sleep so it is not tiring me out as much now I'm getting used to it :lol2:
I am actually waking up 15 minutes before each alarm setting now so soon I won't even need the alarm I'll just wake up on time, which will make life easier for my husband.


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

awww bless - good luck


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Athravan said:


> I started him on the goats milk + abidec + infacol yesterday morning, his poop is a bit runnier at the moment but that might just be because of the change I hope, I am keeping an eye on it though.
> 
> He certainly seems to like the taste, and I am now pretty much getting up in the night, warming the milk & feeding in my sleep so it is not tiring me out as much now I'm getting used to it :lol2:
> I am actually waking up 15 minutes before each alarm setting now so soon I won't even need the alarm I'll just wake up on time, which will make life easier for my husband.


:lol2: It's amazing how the "maternal clock" clicks in when you are hand rearing and you wake up before it goes off, aware that it's time to feed! 

I don't know how old hedgehogs are when they wean, but I'm hoping it's about 3/4 weeks like most mammals. I must admit the 5 weeks I had to rear those red squirrels nearly killed me, cos I've only ever done it before for 2/3 weeks with cat kittens. By the time I'd been doing it for 4 weeks, the "maternal Clock" had run down and I was sleeping through it and having to be woken by my husband, who usually had started and on one occasion finished before I could get my head off the pillow!!! :lol2:


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

feorag said:


> I don't know how old hedgehogs are when they wean, but I'm hoping it's about 3/4 weeks like most mammals. I must admit the 5 weeks I had to rear those red squirrels nearly killed me, cos I've only ever done it before for 2/3 weeks with cat kittens. By the time I'd been doing it for 4 weeks, the "maternal Clock" had run down and I was sleeping through it and having to be woken by my husband, who usually had started and on one occasion finished before I could get my head off the pillow!!! :lol2:


I hate to say this...but my Angel is 5 and a half weeks and still being fed milk every 4 hours! If she had been left with her mum then she would be weaned by now like her sister and brothers, but due to not having the goodness of her mums milk she has developed slower and later than the others, so i am leaving her until she is 7 weeks to wean her.
If her digestive system isn't properly developed and i try her on slightly more solid food, then it could kill her.
It's worth feeding for an extra couple of weeks just to be sure


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

han said:


> I hate to say this...but my Angel is 5 and a half weeks and still being fed milk every 4 hours! If she had been left with her mum then she would be weaned by now like her sister and brothers, but due to not having the goodness of her mums milk she has developed slower and later than the others, so i am leaving her until she is 7 weeks to wean her.
> If her digestive system isn't properly developed and i try her on slightly more solid food, then it could kill her.
> It's worth feeding for an extra couple of weeks just to be sure


 
Could you add Probiotic to her feed?? this is what I do when handrearing many Kittens,Puppys and 1 Rat pup:no1:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I've already suggested that, but I don't think she is.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I've got the vitamins, are probiotics different?

He will have a cocktail waiting for him each feed soon, but whatever gives him the best chances


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, they are different. The pro-biotic is supposed to help the gut flora, whereas the vitamins are merely to ensure that your hoggie is getting the maximum vitamins to help growth.

I don't know what probiotic Shell uses, but like I said earlier I used a pro-biotic yoghurt, so any live yoghurt will do the job.

I used exactly the same mix I mentioned earlier in this thread for both the squirrels and the litter of baby rabbits I was hand rearing at the same time and they all thrived.


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

glad the little cutie is still hanging in there, as are you!


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Probiotic is fine to add to the goats milk.... I used a few drops of yakult added in when I was rearing, I've also been told that you can buy a probiotic paste in health food shops!!

Goodluck with Timmy!!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Same as Eileen, live yoghurt or as before Yakhult


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Okay I'll give that a go too. He seems to be doing okay at the moment but I'm trying not to be too optimistic just in case, APH apparently are hugely difficult to rear and Han has done an exceptional job with hers, but most of the people I have contacted and stories I have heard are not successfull 

I'm at work at the moment but will be heading home in an hour for his next feed (good thing I live so close!) and will try and pick up something with probiotics in it on the way.


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

Athravan said:


> Han has done an exceptional job with hers, but most of the people I have contacted and stories I have heard are not successfull


Thanks Christy, but i wouldn't speak too soon. Angel developed bloat yesterday, a bad case of it. So it is very much touch and go at the moment. Please keep your fingers crossed for her.


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

feorag said:


> I've already suggested that, but I don't think she is.


No you're right, i'm not. Purely because it was hard to get her going on this mix in the first place which she has been on for the last 5 weeks, and i didn't want to upset the balance by changing it.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

You misunderstand ! Either that or I do. I thought Shell was asking Christy if she was giving a pro-biotic, as it's her thread.

She may have meant you, but I think she meant Christy - certainly I did.

BTW sorry to hear that your little one developed bloat - I do hope you can get it through this! Fingers crossed for you!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

:lol2: Yes Eileen I did mean Christy maybe I should have quoted her sorry for any confusion:blush:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Good luck with the lil one Christy...


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

No wonder your confused I quoted Han, sorry guys maybe I should have quoted you both. Anyway you are both doing a grand job with your hoglets:2thumb:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:blush: So you did! I must admit I just assumed you meant Christy, which was why I responded saying that I'd already suggested it!

Ah well - no harm done!


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Best of luck with the little one... I got to 11 days (reared from birth) with mine and bloat was the thing that finished the little chap off. I learnt a lot, but hope I won't have to practice it again any time soon!


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

oh girls, i hope your little babies make it.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Bloat is a problem whenhandrearing any animal. One of the Cavaliers I handreared was nearly put to sleep because of it, thats when I started using infacol and massage. Hope they are both doing well


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi everyone
Angel seems to be a little better today. Her bloat is obviously easing as she is still with me. Her next problem is now constipation  Poor little mite.
Warm baths and plenty of massaging for her at the moment.

How's Timmy doing Christy?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

han said:


> Hi everyone
> Angel seems to be a little better today. Her bloat is obviously easing as she is still with me. Her next problem is now constipation  Poor little mite.
> Warm baths and plenty of massaging for her at the moment.
> 
> How's Timmy doing Christy?


Timmy seems to be doing okay, I am not seeing much weight gain but he is eating very greedily so I take it as a good sign. He seems to like the goats milk mix. I think he is 8-9 days old now so doing better than my last attempt but still a looong way to go.


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

Ah that's very similar to how Angel was. She stayed 12g for about a week or so, and then just started growing!
As long as he isn't losing weight then it's good news


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

good luck with the hand rearing...stay positive :2thumb:


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

feel sorry for you christy, i have hand reared a litter of rats before (that was bad because by the time you have finished feeding them all its pretty much time to start over).. and more recently me and cheryl were hand rearing a lil marmoset... its horrible having to get up every two hours but both times for me it payed off in the end. i'll keep my fingers crossed for you guy's  
Owen


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

han said:


> Ah that's very similar to how Angel was. She stayed 12g for about a week or so, and then just started growing!
> As long as he isn't losing weight then it's good news


I think when you first begin hand rearing, the animal does stay static for a few days and then, once they get the hang of the feeding and the food kicks in, you're kind a off! 

I absolutely agree the main thing is that he's not losing weight, I bet pretty soon he'll start gaining again. Fingers crossed!


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi guys
I have some sad news, Angel passed away in the night. 
I'm absolutely gutted


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm so sorry  I know you did everything you could for her


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## elliottreed (Jan 9, 2008)

Have just found this thread

Han, I am so sorry.
Have had this happen with various pets
and JUST when you think you're nearing a safety boundary
The worst happens, my thoughts are with you and Angel at the bridge

And Christy, I hope Timmy is doing well and can pull through this.

Don't doubt yourselves either of you
You are giving them the best shot and doing everything you can

The rest is up to them

Some things are just not mean't to live.

Take care both of you and I will check in with this post later to see how Timmy is doing

Cari xoxo


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

han said:


> Hi guys
> I have some sad news, Angel passed away in the night.
> I'm absolutely gutted


Sorry to hear that Han, I know you've done everything you could. :grouphug:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Han, I was so sorry to read that you'd lost Angel. It's totally soul destroying to try so hard and believe you might succeed and then you fail!

But you did the best you could and gave Angel a fighting chance, it just wasn't meant to be!

So Sorry! :grouphug:


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I don't have much good news either 

Timmy was fine in the night and his first feed this morning was okay, but he has lost 4g, I don't know where it has gone. He is lethargic and refusing to drink milk for the last two feeds. I have a rehydration fluid which seems to be mostly glucose and water from the vet and I am trying to get a bit down him, but he is becoming almost lifeless and has no interest in swallowing anything at all, it has happened so quickly, yesterday he was full of life and drinking as if there was no tomorrow


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

What temperature are you keeping him at?? - If it's around 30, try upping it a degree or two and see if that brings him round... my little one responded well to an increase when she went off her feed!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Athravan said:


> I don't have much good news either
> 
> Timmy was fine in the night and his first feed this morning was okay, but he has lost 4g, I don't know where it has gone. He is lethargic and refusing to drink milk for the last two feeds. I have a rehydration fluid which seems to be mostly glucose and water from the vet and I am trying to get a bit down him, but he is becoming almost lifeless and has no interest in swallowing anything at all, it has happened so quickly, yesterday he was full of life and drinking as if there was no tomorrow


 Low grade infection? If he isn't already on antibiotics, get him on right away.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

So sorry Han but you did your best. I hope your little hoglet picks up for you Christy. Handrearing can be a bit soul destroying sometimes


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## elliottreed (Jan 9, 2008)

My thoughts are with you and Timmy, Christy.

Hang on in there little guy!

xoxox


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

really sorry to hear about angel!!! you did absolutely your best without a doubt - chrissy - fingers crossed for you


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Han i'm so sorry to hear you lost her, you did everything you could 

Christy I have my fingers & toes crossed that Timmy manages to make it through this.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Katiexx said:


> Christy I have my fingers & toes crossed that Timmy manages to make it through this.


Me too - like Shell I agree that hand rearing can be soul destroying at times. The successes are great highs, but the failures and dreadful lows!!

But we won't give up hope!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Timmys doing a bit better now, he missed 3 feeds where he was just refusing to swallow but he's had two good feeds now, upped his temps a bit and his appetite has come back although he is not as energetic as he was yesterday, he has eaten a lot less today, I can only hope he makes it through the night and has not lost any more weight tomorrow and that the rehydration fluid is stopping him getting dehydrated too. I really thought this afternoon when he kept refusing and was so lethargic he wasn't going to make it to tonight but he is still battling on!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:2thumb: That's great news Christy! Keep hoping and keep going!! :notworthy:

Fingers crossed!!!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

fingers crossed for Timmy


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

How's he doing this morning? I hope he got through the night - awaiting news with hope!!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

He made it through the night and has taken his first feed well, but he has lost another 1g of weight today which is never good


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

You're right! It's not good if he's eating and still losing weight, but 1g is a tiny amount, so I'm still hoping he can get there!


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

this may be of no use atall as i dont yet have any experience with hogs, but i have hand reared many baby birds and birds of prey and especialy with rescues we always got amazing results from giveing them a drop of "rescue remidy" its a natural flower extract taht u kan get from any health shop and most chemists.. i would ask around b4 u use it on a hoglet, but it works wonders with all rescued birds and have even seen it work well on hand reared kittens, espeialy if they are under any stress...
may be of help?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree it's good stuff and I've used it when cats have been ill or stressed or on myself when I've been stressed, but like you I'm not sure if it is safe for use on hedgehogs. I did give it to my baby squirrels when I first got them and they were very tiny and dehydrated.

it might be worth asking though?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Timmy had his meal at 11am this morning but when I checked on him at 11:30am had passed away  To say I'm gutted is an understatement, RIP Timmy, sorry I didn't do better.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

Awww i'm so sorry. Don't be so hard on yourself, you did all you could xxx

RIP little Timmy xxx


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

RIP Timmy, such sad news. Please dont blame yourself as without your effort he stood no chance at all.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

i have only just read this thread and wished i had sooner.. 
you both did all you could x

i dont know if its any good for future refrence but i have herd that fostering baby hoggies to rats with babys works very well.


In my experiance rats are fantastic mums normally and are very maternal, i can move any babys with any mother with my rats and they will happily feed the new babys. once i even had a hopper mouse fall into a rat cage with mother and babys... i didnt notice until i found the mouse in with the baby rats all safe and sound.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

this is not my piccy but i hope whos ever picture it is doesnt mind me putting it up as it might help someone with orphans in the future.
from what i understand though you might need extra heat as the foster mum rat will not sit with them as much as she needs to ..


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Athravan said:


> Timmy had his meal at 11am this morning but when I checked on him at 11:30am had passed away  To say I'm gutted is an understatement, RIP Timmy, sorry I didn't do better.


 Don't beat yourself up. Sometimes animal mothers do things for a reason. Perhaps she 'knew' there was something not right with them and chose to end their lives . Perhaps by ending non viable lives quickly in the wild, they can come into season again and have another litter quickly. After all, nature requires that animals replicate as many of themselves as fast as possible.
It just wasn't to be with this little one.


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

am so sorry for you loss, but u did try realy hard for teh poor little thing x


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Christy, I was so sorry to read this when I got home tonight!

But you mustn't beat yourself up about it - you tried the hardest you could and I honestly don't think you could have done any more.

As Fenwoman says some things are just meant to be!

But I know you will be gutted, as I would have been!! :grouphug:

Ladyboid - that a fantastic picture. Cats too make excellent foster mother's if you can get the orphan to them in the early days after kittening well all prey reactions are suppressed, they'll take on rats, squirrels anything like that!

That's certainly something worth knowing for the future though!!! : victory:


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

oh I'm gutted for you!!! RIP Timmy!!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

have refrained from readin any of this thread cos i didnt wanna get upset should what has happened happen, but Ditta told me n i just wanted to say we're thinkin of you christy xxx


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

RIP Timmy and Angel, that's so sad. you couldn't have possibly done any more for either of them girls.


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## pjlucy (Dec 7, 2007)

ladyboid said:


> this is not my piccy but i hope whos ever picture it is doesnt mind me putting it up as it might help someone with orphans in the future.
> from what i understand though you might need extra heat as the foster mum rat will not sit with them as much as she needs to ..


 
do you have the link? very interested in reading how successful fostering was


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

unfortunatly i dont have a link .. it was just this picture and a small piece about keeping them a bit warmer and it working.. no name or anything of who done it


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

Oh Christy i have only just seen your news.
I am so terribly sorry  I know just how you are feeling right now, it is absolutely heartbreaking.
Try and console yourself as i am, that he had a fantastic time with you, which he would never of had if you hadn't of worked so hard. Alot of people wouldn't of bothered.
RIP Timmy xXx Him and Angel are playing together now xxx


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