# working dogs



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

should working dogs not b bred ?


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

i voted yes i keep and work working gundogs and used to keep Patterdales, fox terriers, greyhounds and whippets for working i find people who are agaist it tend to be very poorly informed what goes on and only listens to what there hear on telly or what they read. in my oppion controlling pests with dogs is one of the more Humane ways the same with using rifles much quicker than posions


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Nothing on this earth is "vermin" and the word implies that these animals are not needed. Everything has its purpose. We need working dogs to herd sheep and cows and the only dogs that should cease their work are the ones that are used for pleasure such as racing.

Marina


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

I don't believe there is a reason to purposefully remove a species just because their use is no longer used as widely. Working dogs make wonderful companions as long as the owner can exude their energy with walks and stimulate their minds.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

yes but racing greyhounds love racing if there didnt like it there wouldnt do it theres no one on there back or there not attached to anything there do it beacuse there have been bred for thousands of years to chase small things and there really do love it.

IMHO from an ex racing Kennle maid


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

thanx for your comments but i believe certain animals need controlling so there isnt a population problem and diseases being spread


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

oldtyme said:


> thanx for your comments but i believe certain animals need controlling so there isnt a population problem and diseases being spread


Can you explain this in a bit more detail please? What diseases? Diseases from the "vermin" or from the working dogs?


----------



## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

i voted yes as they are needed for jobs like herding.


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> yes but racing greyhounds love racing if there didnt like it there wouldnt do it theres no one on there back or there not attached to anything there do it beacuse there have been bred for thousands of years to chase small things and there really do love it.
> 
> IMHO from an ex racing Kennle maid



and I agree, they love to run but it's a shame how some tracks treat them. If they weren't discarded after a few years and were allowed to run for as long as their legs would let them then I don't see a problem.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

i have been very lucky and the four kennels i worked in in Scotland and here have always been good if they were good they race to 5-6 years then stayed at the kennles or where rehomed ones that didnt make the grade where rehomed i had three myself and there made great working dogs. i think the problem is with racing dogs is that when it comes to rehoming them there is such a stigma that there need lots of exercise and cant be trusted. when in fact one/two good quick burns off and there done and actually i used to have drag one of my greyhounds out from under the table for her walk as she would rather sleep! i think if more people realised what great dogs there are there wouldnt be so many needing homes!


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

rats carry lots of diseases and are well known for the spread of diseases,watch this clip and just imagine theyre rats and then tell me theres no need to control the numbers of certain animals,i dont think anyone would like to live anywhere near that 
YouTube - Mouse Plague invasion.


----------



## daz666 (Apr 17, 2008)

good thread neil have not seen any one vote against tho.where r all those do gooders now.


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

theyre like a bus all come at once mate,but everyones entitled to their opinion its supposed to be a free country after all :bash:


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

But working dogs aren't just used for the control of wild rat population. They have many other uses. And we all know the potential for what they can do ie the plague. But what contributed was how poor the sanitation was back in those days.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

totally agree there are many differnt types of workign dogs. Herding, gundogs, guarding ect ect all of them have a job to do 

as for dogs for control of vermin yes there have a purpose be it rats, rabbits ect ect


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

obviously there are lots of uses for working dogs so you do you think theres no chance that there could be another plague so we should stop the control of their population


----------



## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Kimmy173 said:


> But working dogs aren't just used for the control of wild rat population. They have many other uses. And we all know the potential for what they can do ie the plague. But what contributed was how poor the sanitation was back in those days.



The plague wasn't spread by the black rats it was the fleas that fed on the rats technically. Also we don't have wild black rats in this country anymore.

Also curiosity is getting the better of me, how many rats would a dog kill? Compared to say rat traps/poison that alot of people use. Surely that contributes a greater number?

I believe working dogs should still be bred. But i'm on about herding gundogs etc too.


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

been ratting before and done 500 rats in one day,granted dogs might not kill as many rats as poisons do but the poisoned rats can also poison cats,dogs and many other animals if they come into contact with the rats,and also i think the rats will suffer more by being poisoned as its a slow and painful death,just my opinion tho


----------



## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah not disputing that at all. Just thought the majority of people did it that way if they had a problem as opposed to using a dog.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

people dont control rats with dogs for stopping the plaque there do it for controlling there numbers, and i would rather kill rats with dogs or gun rather than poison as using poison is a very slow and painfull death


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

what do you folks mean by a working dog? i think it means something else here.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> yes but racing greyhounds love racing if there didnt like it there wouldnt do it theres no one on there back or there not attached to anything there do it beacuse there have been bred for thousands of years to chase small things and there really do love it.
> 
> IMHO from an ex racing Kennle maid


 You denigrate everyone who is against hunting with dogs as woolly minded and ill informed. I am against it and always have been and am not ill informed nor a townie. BTW greyhound racing is one of the most vile sports around.Tens of thousands of ex racers are killed every single year by various means, shooting, hanging, drowning,sending to Spain to be used on cruel flapper tracks. Only a tiny number end up in greyhound rescue. I think someone once worked out that 90% of all greyhounds bred for the track, don't make the grade, get injured, etc and are 'disposed of'. That you support hunting with dogs and urging them to kill other animals comes as no surprise if you are proud to have been part of such a vile industry as the dog racing one.


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

what we mean by working dogs (terriers)are dogs that are used in pest control of rats and rabbits,it used to be foxes aswell but thats now banned,ive seen many videos of american bulldogs being used in pest control of wild boars,if it was in this country it would be banned in seconds


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

#*39* (*permalink*)  







Yesterday, 11:43 PM 
fenwoman








Ultra Citizen








Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: cambs
Posts: 1,306 
RFUKTrader: *0* / 0% 










Quote:
Originally Posted by *oldtyme*  
_well said mate shame we live in a nanny state and they want to ban everything_

Yeah, flipping spoilsports. I mean, what's wrong with a bit of cruelty , sending kids up chimneys and down mines, wife beating, dog fighting and badger baiting, bare knuckle fighting? Rotten old spoilsports just don't like anyone to enjoy themselves do they?:lol2:

im replying to you on this thread because of all the comments on my other thread which should only be replied to if you're interested in buying a pup,just because i agree with people hunting doesnt mean i believe in sending kids down chimneys or mines or beating wives or dog fighting or badger baiting,if in future the ban on badger control is lifted due to population boom and needs to be done,it doesnt mean they will badger bait,isnt bare knuckle fighting now called ufc
also boxing is just as dangerous as bare knuckle fighting but that isnt banned
again just my opinion tho if freedom of speech hasnt been banned yet


----------



## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

you do realise dogs are used for more than just pest control. Police dogs for a start are technically working dogs. as are sheep dogs etc.

We need them because they can do things we can't. Or that they do the things faster.


If you're gonna argue that working dogs shouldn't be bred. Then why should we breed non-working dogs? They have less purpose. Not that I hate dogs. I would hate not having a dog.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

This question needs much further clarification! Working dogs are many different breeds doing many different tasks. From Guide dogs, hearing dogs, seizure alert dogs & dogs for the disabled, to police dogs & drug sniffer dogs, to hunting, retrieveing & pointing breeds of dogs, & guard dogs.

If you are asking should breeds of dogs used for controlling 'vermin' be stopped from breeding further, again this is a pointless question. I have a Jack Russell Terrier as a companion. JRTs werer originally bred for hunting foxes, & later used on other species of quarry. They still are today. I am strongly against using dogs for hunting. Therefore, if I said "yes, I think hunting breeds should be stopped from further breeding", than I would not be able to enjoy the JRT as the wonderful & loving pet they are.

If the question is "Do you think hunting with dogs was right to be banned?", then I would vote Yes!


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

oldtyme said:


> what we mean by working dogs (terriers)are dogs that are used in pest control of rats and rabbits,it used to be foxes aswell but thats now banned,ive seen many videos of american bulldogs being used in pest control of wild boars,if it was in this country it would be banned in seconds


 oh! a black lab is a working dog here.... many other fine dogs are working dogs here..


----------



## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

I don't have a problem with any working breed be they gun dogs, hunters, security, herders, assistance, sniffer the list goes on the only real lap dogs originally were the toy breeds ie bred purely to sit on folks laps and be accessories.

My schips have worked on the farm ratting, rabbiting and even taken a run out with the hunt hounds before the ban, so much for hounds killing smaller dogs and cats yeah right tell my boys that, my multi titled boy did get banned from the hunt coz he got the fox more often than the hounds he didn't care he wasn't the bigger animal lol. Some of my schips are still working sheep and cattle in different parts of the UK, not bad for a so called 'show' breeder.


----------



## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> Nothing on this earth is "vermin" and the word implies that these animals are not needed. Everything has its purpose. We need working dogs to herd sheep and cows and the only dogs that should cease their work are the ones that are used for pleasure such as racing.
> 
> Marina





fenwoman said:


> You denigrate everyone who is against hunting with dogs as woolly minded and ill informed. I am against it and always have been and am not ill informed nor a townie. BTW greyhound racing is one of the most vile sports around.Tens of thousands of ex racers are killed every single year by various means, shooting, hanging, drowning,sending to Spain to be used on cruel flapper tracks. Only a tiny number end up in greyhound rescue. I think someone once worked out that 90% of all greyhounds bred for the track, don't make the grade, get injured, etc and are 'disposed of'. That you support hunting with dogs and urging them to kill other animals comes as no surprise if you are proud to have been part of such a vile industry as the dog racing one.


Well said ladies :2thumb:

I live in a rural area and have done dog/wildlife rescue for a number of years. I know the facts, I'm not ill informed or wooly minded..lol 

I dont have a problem with any breed, I have a problem with certain types of people who own them.


oldtyme since you started this thread maybe you could enlighten us on your own dogs and your breeding of them? As I for one am quite interested


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

the dogs i have now or the dogs ive had in the past,i only started this thread as people were going on to my advertisement that i put on for a friend to sell his pups and they were blocking it up argueing about hunting dogs,and another thing if everyone didnt have a different opinion it would be a very boring world,and i didnt start this thread to start arguements it was so everyone could have their say about their opinions on this subject


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you guys use dogs to hunt rats?.... well, that leaves me scratching my head.... i guess everyone needs a hobby.... hunting for rats... that's just silly.


----------



## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

I say yes, because there is more to "working" dogs than people seem to think. 
Most people think of working dogs as fox hunting and rat hunting, what about gun dogs (both retrivel and flushing), sled dogs, heck even seeing eye dogs are "working".
This coming from someone with 3 sled dogs, and who lives with 4 ratting dogs by the way, someone who does work dogs. If the dog doesnt enjoy it, they wont do it!


----------



## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Yes we should, they play an important part in society and the majority are treated extremely well.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> You denigrate everyone who is against hunting with dogs as woolly minded and ill informed. I am against it and always have been and am not ill informed nor a townie. BTW greyhound racing is one of the most vile sports around.Tens of thousands of ex racers are killed every single year by various means, shooting, hanging, drowning,sending to Spain to be used on cruel flapper tracks. Only a tiny number end up in greyhound rescue. I think someone once worked out that 90% of all greyhounds bred for the track, don't make the grade, get injured, etc and are 'disposed of'. That you support hunting with dogs and urging them to kill other animals comes as no surprise if you are proud to have been part of such a vile industry as the dog racing one.


why? i just put my point across yes i know they are bad greyhound kennels out there and it disgusts me at how there treat there dogs but there are also good kennels that are trying there hardest to make the sport better and care passiontly about there dogs. its like anything you get people who care dearly for there sport and animals and you get the ones that are the total oppsite and are just in it for a quick buck and view the animals as "disposable" i never put anyone down or said there oppion is wrong it is you who is saying i am cruel and it comes to you as no suprsie that because i hunt i am "Vile" that i take personaly i care very much for all my animals and in the way i hunt.

i think this is one of them debates that could go one for years with no one ever agreeing instead why dont we just respect each others views and leave it at that i have some very good friends that are anti hunting but we are still good friends i respect her views she respects mine.


----------



## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Yes they should , they have many many wonderful qualities , anyone been watching the programmes about the police dogs? those dogs are amazing.


----------



## yellow dragons (Jul 17, 2008)

why are we taking about hunting, i thought this was asnake forum. 
sounds like another anti trying to push his views onto other people


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

this forum is for reptiles but also covers other animals hence this been in the other animal forum.


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm insulted that i have been tarred with yet another crappy title because of the way i feel about the animals that i share this planet with. 

I would not want any dog of mine tearing anything apart because behaviour like that can lead to nothing but trouble!! 

The so called vermin you refer to go towards feeding our nations lovely birds of prey and foxes, which i believe to be a lovely sight in the wild and with out rodents of any kind where would our british reptile population be??

I detest people who go out and and feel that mauling and terminating the lives of others is a pleasureable pass time.

Marina


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

i agree on some of the comments your saying,i hope 1 day there is enough natural predators to control the vermin,but till that day i hope theres enough hunters out there to control the problem as i havent hunted for 8 monthsb


----------



## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I detest people who go out and and feel that mauling and terminating the lives of others is a pleasureable pass time.


But what about those who use the animals to control levels of "vermin", the people who do so out of requirement rather than pleasure?


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree Marina!


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Rain said:


> But what about those who use the animals to control levels of "vermin", the people who do so out of requirement rather than pleasure?



Your going to make me shout in a minute i have just written litterally one page ago that NO ANIMAL IS VERMIN it is all needed!!! Circle of life/food chain.

Marina


----------



## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> Your going to make me shout in a minute i have just written litterally one page ago that NO ANIMAL IS VERMIN it is all needed!!! Circle of life/food chain.
> 
> Marina


Ok, I shall rephrase it then.
_But what about those who use the animals to control levels of pests, the people who do so out of requirement rather than pleasure?_

_You knew what I ment from the post surely, I'm not trying to start a fight, but in your eyes these are not vermin, and I can understand that, but when a rat chews holes in every single bag of horse feed in our barn, chew through the powercables that control the alarm and result in the alarms going off at 3am, or when they chew holes in the sides of doors, I feel vermin is the nicest word I can use._


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

i put yes as i think you do and i keep a working breed but for agilaty lol


----------



## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I'm still at a loss as to which animals need controlling. Although I have my own opinions on that...lol

I also dont believe in calling our wildlife pests or vermin. 

Has anyone checked what year it is? 

As far as I know we dont live in mud huts anymore :lol2: nor do we as individuals live off the land. So you show me these animals that are pests to your land and crops..




oldtyme said:


> i agree on some of the comments your saying,i hope 1 day there is enough natural predators to control the vermin,but till that day i hope theres enough hunters out there to control the problem as i havent hunted for 8 monthsb


Ummmmm dont foxes kill rabbits? and we kill foxes :whistling2:

I'm still interested to know about your dogs and your breeding oldtyme?

And I dont think we are debating as to wether these breeds should still be bred. We are debating as to wether they should still be used for working.


And the other downside is what happens to all of these dogs when there not fit to work anymore or dont make the grade?

Shall I show you?





















This dog was stabbed in the face and the side of his body.







































































































I think that might give you an idea...

All of the above dogs made a full recovery because there was someone there to spend there time, love and money on helping them.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Those pictures are awful! Makes you want to cry just looking into those dog's eyes! Well done for showing them MarthaMoo, & excellent point on the foxes eating rabbits too! :2thumb:


----------



## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> I'm still at a loss as to which animals need controlling. Although I have my own opinions on that...lol
> 
> I also dont believe in calling our wildlife pests or vermin.
> 
> ...


 
Oh my word that really does bring a tear to your eye 

so glad they all made full recoveries


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

its ok showing the ones that are bad what about showing all the dogs that are well cared for even after there have finished hunting as i said you always get your bad apples it happens in everything even in keeping Reptiles

i am my laptop using mobile broadband at the farm at moment so cant get pics of my computer but i will when i get home. to show that there are very good owners out there and just showing the bad ones yes puts your point across but how would you like it if i put loads of pics of ill and neglected and abused reptiles on saying this is what reptile owners do to there animals????????????????$

and yes there is need to control there are not enough predators to keep the number of rats and rabbits down if there was i would not be called in to control them as that is what happens i dont go out to do it for pleasure i go out and do it for the farmer as he is losing crop beacse of it 



> As far as I know we dont live in mud huts anymore :lol2: nor do we as individuals live off the land. So you show me these animals that are pests to your land and crops..



we dont live of the land were do you think your food comes from???


----------



## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Right so if there are so many good owners out there why do so many ex working dogs end up in pounds and rescues? 

I didnt say there werent any good owners, I know a few. 

But the bad outweigh the good.

There are people who hunt for food, and respect the animals and the countryside. And I can respect that.
There are also those who do it for fun/sport who get pleasure in killing animals, and have no respect for anything, and its those people I cant stand.

Like I said before 12,000 dogs are PTS in this country alone, that doesnt include the ones who are PTS off the record.

Where does my food come from?
I grow my own veg, and from shops.

My point was we are still are killing off the preditor animals in this country one way or another. You think about the preditor animals that use to be in this country many years ago, all wiped out by humans.


----------



## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

oldtyme said:


> what we mean by working dogs (terriers)are dogs that are used in pest control of rats and rabbits,it used to be foxes aswell but thats now banned,ive seen many videos of american bulldogs being used in pest control of wild boars,if it was in this country it would be banned in seconds


 
there's many other types of working dogs that aren't hunters. guard dogs, sniffers, etc are all dogs that work. As are dogs for the blind etc. So not just terriers. Retrievers, Rotties, GSD, doberman, collies etc.


Just as a little question, do you guys use the term pastoral as a division of working dogs or a seperate group. pastoral dogs being herding animals etc. Eg collies,


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

the working dogs i had in the past bedlington terriers rillington/dutch common,nuttall terriers,lurchers ive had deerhound/greyhound,the other lurcher i had was whippet/bull/ebt,my deerhound/greyhound got injured before the vet wanted to put him down as he said he wasnt sure if the dog could work again and would cost an awful lot of money to fix him,it took a good few months to get him right and over £700 in vet bills and he did work again,
dogs i have now are old tyme bulldogs as i dont hunt anymore but i think its abit bad that you put them pics on to shock people into thinking like you,no matter what animal it is a sad fact that some do get neglected but not every hunter neglects their dogs but like everything a small majority do,
yes foxes do eat rabbits but they'll go up to a farm and they won't just kill one chicken they'll kill them all,and in lambing season they'll kill all the lambs,its hard enough for a farmer to live nowadays without losing his livestock to a fox or his crops to rats and rabbits
but at the end of the day no matter what i say you're still going to argue with me,i think ive put my point across now so ill leave it at that


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

If fox populations are in need of being controlled, why do some hunters make artificial dens to attract foxes? Attracting the animals that they are so eager to hunt?


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

because theyre doing it for sport and maybe in that area they dont need to be controlled,yes i agree with hunting but i also disagree on some hunting aswell,i used to hunt but purely for pest control and not sport,i dont agree with people just doing it for sport with lots of horses and hounds


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Our sanctuary is in a farming community and there are foxes.Yes they will kill chickens and ducks etc but have never heard any of them taking lambs(maybe sickly ones but never healthy ones)


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

its very rare that people will make fake dens i havent heard about it been done around here for years. as i said this is an argrument that could go one and on and on without anyone agreeing all i take offence of is people posting pics of the negative side over and over and not admiting there are good owners and i am sorry the bad does not out weigh the good, just have a look on some of the forums you will find thousands of good owners and as i said heres some wel looked after working dogs


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Those last photos were all kinds of wrong!!

Marina


----------



## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> Those last photos were all kinds of wrong!!
> 
> Marina



The ones bosshog put up? Or the ones marthamoo did?:?


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> Those last photos were all kinds of wrong!!
> 
> Marina


please explain?


----------



## gnipper (Feb 13, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> I'm still at a loss as to which animals need controlling. Although I have my own opinions on that...lol
> 
> I also dont believe in calling our wildlife pests or vermin.
> 
> ...


The working dogs will be a tiny portion of the total number of neglected/abandoned dogs each year in the uk, the majority will be pet dogs its just unfortunate that with people being anti hunting they only show the hunting dogs in neglected states, the same as its only the rotties or pitbull attacks on people that make the papers.
Peoples blinkered attitudes on things really irritate me especially when they try to inflict their opinions onto other people, most people who are anti when you ask why say its because of blah blah blah which is usually only the rubbish they have seen in papers or heard of doley druggies handing out fliers in the street.
People don't hear of anti hunting protestors hitting heavily pregnant women with baseball bats because their husband hunts, castrating hounds( they stole) without proper veterinary treatment, releasing thousands of mink to do irrepairable damage to our native wildlife etc etc etc the list is endless.


----------



## gnipper (Feb 13, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> If fox populations are in need of being controlled, why do some hunters make artificial dens to attract foxes? Attracting the animals that they are so eager to hunt?


A hole in the ground won't attract foxes, food probably would but a hole wouldn't. Foxes mainly live above ground and only go to ground when the weathers really bad or to have their cubs then as soon as the cubs are big enough they move into the dense cover or crops.
An artificial earth is easier to remove a fox from though.


----------



## gnipper (Feb 13, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Our sanctuary is in a farming community and there are foxes.Yes they will kill chickens and ducks etc but have never heard any of them taking lambs(maybe sickly ones but never healthy ones)


Mainly because you'd be hard pushed to find any lambs round there and the fact that there are so many pheasants, hares and rabbits and poultry for them to feed on instead. There are foxes where I control the rabbits but they aren't doing any harm and helping if anything so no one is after them.


----------



## gnipper (Feb 13, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> Your going to make me shout in a minute i have just written litterally one page ago that NO ANIMAL IS VERMIN it is all needed!!! Circle of life/food chain.
> 
> Marina


Some animals are vermin when in the wrong place at the wrong time, would you want something with diseases getting into your grain store or if you kept livestock for your own meat would you like them to get slaughtered and only one actually eaten? Weeds are only a weed in the garden or crop, anywhere else and they are plants.


----------



## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

gnipper said:


> The working dogs will be a tiny portion of the total number of neglected/abandoned dogs each year in the uk, the majority will be pet dogs its just unfortunate that with people being anti hunting they only show the hunting dogs in neglected states, the same as its only the rotties or pitbull attacks on people that make the papers.
> Peoples blinkered attitudes on things really irritate me especially when they try to inflict their opinions onto other people, most people who are anti when you ask why say its because of blah blah blah which is usually only the rubbish they have seen in papers or heard of doley druggies handing out fliers in the street.
> People don't hear of anti hunting protestors hitting heavily pregnant women with baseball bats because their husband hunts, castrating hounds( they stole) without proper veterinary treatment, releasing thousands of mink to do irrepairable damage to our native wildlife etc etc etc the list is endless.


Sorry to shatter your thoughts on people who are involved in animal rights but I'm not a doely druggy. I support myself and always have done and I own my own home, which happens to be quite large, morgage paid.


How would know about how many working dogs get dumped?
I know because I have worked with various pounds across the country and actually its quite a high number at certain times of year. So please dont try telling me what you think are the facts without actually knowing them.

No I usually hear of the hunt doing allot worse. But then that will never suprise me as they do kill animals for sport.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> No I usually hear of the hunt doing allot worse. But then that will never suprise me as they do kill animals for sport.



oh my god your saying that we have antis wrong well you have hunters wrong how dare you make that comment about us i take that very personal as a hunter that you would judge us like that just because i hunt! and after been threatend with a baseball bat and told there were going to kill me i think i have a sound knowledge of antis. and look at this thread pro hunters have stayed calm and answered all questions without losing our rag were it is ones against it that have made it personal

adlock:


----------



## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

Like it or not, people will continue to breed working dogs, with the intention of them hunting, ratting, pulling sleds, racing, fetching birds, flushing etc.

If you dont like it, then fine, that's your choice.
I however, fully support the use of working dogs, have worked with dogs, and will continue to work with dogs. First and foremost getting my husky to learn to fetch birds!


----------



## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> oh my god your saying that we have antis wrong well you have hunters wrong how dare you make that comment about us i take that very personal as a hunter that you would judge us like that just because i hunt! and after been threatend with a baseball bat and told there were going to kill me i think i have a sound knowledge of antis. and look at this thread pro hunters have stayed calm and answered all questions without losing our rag were it is ones against it that have made it personal
> 
> adlock:


Sorry I dont see how I have made it personal at all...

I wasnt the one that started steriotyping people...

I am aware of what goes on, I know that I have friends who have been badly injuried, one has brain damage after the hunt took a spade to his head. I even knew of one that was killed.
I also know there are groups of extreemists who are into hurting people and go out just to find trouble. But there not animal rights protesters, there in a group of there own.
I have been out and about a bit with protersters and I have never whitnessed any violence by the AR protesters. The group I went out with was a peaceful group and any new people joining were told that from the begining. Violence would not be tollerated in any way.


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Actually Gnipper the field next to the horses paddock was full of Ewes that lambed this year.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> Sorry I dont see how I have made it personal at all...
> 
> I wasnt the one that started steriotyping people...
> 
> ...


 an anti hunt has been killed do you have facts to back this up? and the one brain damaged what hunt was this?? would like to know what hunt took a spade to someone's head as none of the hunts i ride with take spades with them the terrier man might

and yes animal rights do get vicious i used to work for a company that bred animals for medical reserach one friend had his car set alight then the other was attacked while leaving work.

how have i stereotyped antis?


----------



## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Friend of mine was a mink farmer and boy did they do some serious damage to the local wildlife and domestic pets once the Anti's let them out idiots had no idea what havoc and damage they were causing!!!

Foxs do and have taken lambs love, had a ewe on our farm years ago have a lamb pulled from her as it was being born by a doo gooders urban fox! Another day I'd shot a rabbit in the field sent the dog in to collect it only to see a fox come and nick it right under my nose, again an urban fox some do gooders took cat food to 'whilst it adjusted to living in the wild!' Oh how about the night I lost 500 geese just before xmas cull to a single fox going from one penned flock to another - my kids got nowt that year and lets face it the fox only took internal organs from 2 geese he'd killed.

We can all find photo's of neglected dogs, just because they're working 'types' doesn't mean to say they came from working homes, that's part of the problem folk being unrealistic about the breed they want and the dogs suffering as a result.


----------



## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

> HSA news release 21st November 2004
> Saboteurs injured in violent backlash against Hunting ban
> 3 hunt saboteurs were injured and had to receive medical treatment yesterday (20 November 2004) when they were attacked by a mob of hunt supporters led by 2 red coated huntsmen at the South Devon Hunt meet at Old Langsworthy Farm, Widecombe-in-the-Moor, Devon. The unprovoked attacks happened as the hunt left the meet. One saboteur had to undergo emergency surgery last night at Torbay hospital due to the serious nature of his injuries.


As for the other person they died as a result of being hit by a van at the hunt. It was a few years back now. 


I didnt get personal with you, I was responding to gnipper who said we were all doley druggies, now if thats not personal I dont know what is...

If you read back I said there are good working homes out there and not all working dog owners are bad..


Those photos I posted were all of ex workers or racers that had been handed over for working, I know because I know where they came from. Plus you can tell the difference between a dog thats been worked and one that hasnt.

Allot of it is to do with areas, take Wales, a high percentage of lurchers and terriers that come into the pound that is in a certain area have been worked. I would say 90% of the patterdales have been and nearly all the lurchers have been. Unless they are young and have been up for sale and not sold. I could also add most Springers that come in to that aswell.


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> please explain?



I dont think i need to i have already clearly explain my position on people who see the need to maul and shoot at wild animals minding their own!! Bloody thirsty human beings who take pleasure in the death and suffering of another living soul.


Marina:O


----------



## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

Yes two protestors have been killed while sabbing, and sadly the link won't work but the HSA website also lists over 100 hunters or hunt supporters actually charged with offences against protesters - which is the tip of the iceberg of course because that's only up to 1999, and because unless there is video or photographic evidence the police usually do nothing.

And having been a hunt sab myself, it's most certainly not a case of 'a few bad eggs'. The threat of violence was constant. Not surprising really, coming from people who find enjoyment in seeing an animal ripped apart.

And no, I am not a 'doley druggie' either. I am a home-owner, small business owner and have never signed on or taken drugs in my life. 

I think this thread should be locked now. No-one is going to change anyone else's view on this. I've held off replying until now because it's pointless, but I couldn't ignore the stereotyping of 'antis' and the other nonsense any longer.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

if you look back at this thread i actually posted if you respect my views i will respect yours i am not trying to change anyones views but when i am getting brandished as something worse than the devil i take offence and have a right to deffend myself.


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Marinam2 said:


> I dont think i need to i have already clearly explain my position on people who see the need to maul and shoot at wild animals minding their own!! Bloody thirsty human beings who take pleasure in the death and suffering of another living soul.
> 
> 
> Marina:O


Just out of interest are you a vegetarian?


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

what id like to know is what do all the anti hunters feel about fishing for sport as i know some hunters who are against it


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I dont like fishing either and yes im a veggie BUT it doesnt mean I try to convert people which is why I have kept quiet on this debate. Im an anti hunting/fishing/vivisection person. What I believe in I never force on other people and I expect the same respect back. We will never agree to disagree with our beliefs in anything in this world so I find it easier to keep quiet. Doesnt mean I aint reading this though:lol2:


----------



## kiriak (Feb 10, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> Nothing on this earth is "vermin" Everything has its purpose.
> Marina


Really? Try telling that to the people who are plagued by Rats!!!
Please explain what purpose *these* VERMIN have? I cannot shoot enough of these to keep people happy!! :lol2:

Also I am pest control on hundreds of acres of farmland, next time you moan about the price of food going up think about how much that is down to crop destruction by VERMIN such as Rabbits and Pigeons. Its people like me, shooting them for sport and pleasure that keeps the cost of your loaf of bread down!! :2thumb:


----------



## kiriak (Feb 10, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> The so called vermin you refer to go towards feeding our nations lovely birds of prey and foxes, which i believe to be a lovely sight in the wild and with out rodents of any kind where would our british reptile population be??


 
How twee! :lol2: Now try and look at the bigger picture *"outside"* Marina's world Ha Haa :whistling2:


----------



## kiriak (Feb 10, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> If fox populations are in need of being controlled, why do some hunters make artificial dens to attract foxes? Attracting the animals that they are so eager to hunt?


It's called a lure! Lure them in and then SHOOT THE BASTARDS!!!!!!! :lol2:


----------



## kiriak (Feb 10, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> its very rare that people will make fake dens i havent heard about it been done around here for years. as i said this is an argrument that could go one and on and on without anyone agreeing all i take offence of is people posting pics of the negative side over and over and not admiting there are good owners and i am sorry the bad does not out weigh the good, just have a look on some of the forums you will find thousands of good owners and as i said heres some wel looked after working dogs


Awwww what a lovely sight. All those lovely dogs (proper animals) enjoying a day out hunting. Its what they have been selectively bred for
and what they enjoy. Good luck to em eh? :2thumb:


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Andy said:


> Just out of interest are you a vegetarian?


Whats that got to do with anything?

Marina


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Marinam2 said:


> Whats that got to do with anything?
> 
> Marina


Nothing really just seems you feel strongly about people going out and hunting for their own food I was wondering if you still eat mass produced meat?


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Its not all about food. Have you ever eaten a fox that had been had by hounds??? Was there anything left?? People dont frequently do this to provide themselves with food. Lets face it the OP started this thread about terriers and rats - do you eat rats???

Marina


----------



## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

The dogs do though! Any of my working dogs catch a rabbit they eat it and yes they rag it like a toy, which breaks the neck, they then rip it open to eat the internal organs before any muscle meat is taken JUST LIKE A FOX funnily enough. 

I don't allow the dogs to eat the rats they catch but rarely can I get to stop them eating the mice hence worming every mth or even weekly if they're out on the farm. Lets face it nature produces some pretty cruel, in our eyes, creatures its jut that man has domesticated both prey and predator animals to suit our needs and a dog kill is way more humane than poison and less damaging to the local wildlife.

Man did hunt and chase 1 fox if we're lucky we get a kill, a fox on the other hand hunts and kills as much as he can causing stress and pain, injury etc to many creatures in one go leaves them to die in agony and their bodies to rot hmm who's the more humane.


----------



## oldtyme (Mar 16, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Its not all about food. Have you ever eaten a fox that had been had by hounds??? Was there anything left?? People dont frequently do this to provide themselves with food. Lets face it the OP started this thread about terriers and rats - do you eat rats???
> 
> Marina


 
i dont eat rats but i know people who do and squirrels,i think andy had a fair point thats been missed,all antis are against hunting as its cruel but do they buy free range products like chicken and eggs cos some food in this country is kept in cruel confined enviroments but i havent heard of any anti hunters jumping on that
i think producing animals for food in cruel conditions shouldve been banned before fox hunting,but i think this countrys messed up just my opinion tho


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I think drinking milk is stupid and ridiculous. I mean after all what other mammal on this earth continues to drink breast milk after they are weaned. However with us its not just breast milk its the breast milk of another species. I do because i like the taste i have tried various types of soya and rice milk and my pallet said nooooo.

However with eggs yes i by only confirmed freedom food. If your going to keep attacking my principles instead of looking at your own then i am going to withdraw from this because its getting silly now.

Marina


----------



## fergie (Oct 27, 2007)

Schip said:


> The dogs do though! Any of my working dogs catch a rabbit they eat it and yes they rag it like a toy, which breaks the neck, they then rip it open to eat the internal organs before any muscle meat is taken JUST LIKE A FOX funnily enough.
> 
> I don't allow the dogs to eat the rats they catch but rarely can I get to stop them eating the mice hence worming every mth or even weekly if they're out on the farm. Lets face it nature produces some pretty cruel, in our eyes, creatures its jut that man has domesticated both prey and predator animals to suit our needs and a dog kill is way more humane than poison and less damaging to the local wildlife.
> 
> Man did hunt and chase 1 fox if we're lucky we get a kill, a fox on the other hand hunts and kills as much as he can causing stress and pain, injury etc to many creatures in one go leaves them to die in agony and their bodies to rot hmm who's the more humane.


What, so foxes should be more compassionate about killing their prey. Catch a grip. It's all about survival for the fox. We hardly need to kill foxes to ensure the survival of our species, or rabbits, hares, rats, mice, pheasants, grouse. It's all about killing for pleasure, nothing to do with keeping numbers down and killing vermin.

I'm not some peace loving tree hugger but in this day and age their is no need for a load hooray henrys to be parading around the countryside in ridiculous outfits, chasing and killing the first thing that moves. I'm not proud to say that i have experienced first hand the brutality of a fox hunt i have also been badger baiting, something that still haunts me to this day, lamping, coarsing, ferreting and also dog fights. I have seen a Patterdale come running up out of a badger sett with it's bottom jaw missing. That was the final straw for me and i broke that circle i run in years ago. 

Hunting with dogs is purely for the blood lust of man. Nothing more, nothing less. People may try to dress it up and come up with feeble excuses to try and justify their babarbric ritual but i have experienced first hand what hunting with dogs is all about and it's dam all to do with vermin control, land management or any other crap that's spouted off. Blood lust pure and simple.


----------



## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

So you want a wild animal to be compassionate and rational????

Its a wild animal what do you expect, we as humans on the other hand do have this ablity and chose not to use it.

Marina


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

The problem with a percentage of the human race is they believe they are superior to everything else so they become a bit power crazy and think this gives them the right to use and abuse the species that cant fight back.Animals kill to live Humans live to kill


----------



## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

fergie said:


> What, so foxes should be more compassionate about killing their prey. Catch a grip. It's all about survival for the fox. We hardly need to kill foxes to ensure the survival of our species, or rabbits, hares, rats, mice, pheasants, grouse. It's all about killing for pleasure, nothing to do with keeping numbers down and killing vermin.
> 
> I'm not some peace loving tree hugger but in this day and age their is no need for a load hooray henrys to be parading around the countryside in ridiculous outfits, chasing and killing the first thing that moves. I'm not proud to say that i have experienced first hand the brutality of a fox hunt i have also been badger baiting, something that still haunts me to this day, lamping, coarsing, ferreting and also dog fights. I have seen a Patterdale come running up out of a badger sett with it's bottom jaw missing. That was the final straw for me and i broke that circle i run in years ago.
> 
> Hunting with dogs is purely for the blood lust of man. Nothing more, nothing less. People may try to dress it up and come up with feeble excuses to try and justify their babarbric ritual but i have experienced first hand what hunting with dogs is all about and it's dam all to do with vermin control, land management or any other crap that's spouted off. Blood lust pure and simple.



well said fergie, :notworthy:


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

fergie said:


> It's all about killing for pleasure, nothing to do with keeping numbers down and killing vermin.
> 
> Blood lust pure and simple.


Not really. Its an effective way of controlling pests. I am talking about ratting here. You can use traps and poisons but there is no better way of getting rid of a prolific rat infestation than getting the terriers in. There are many people round my area who provide a service with their ratting dogsand are always kept busy by farmers etc paying them to rid their land and buildings of rats.


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

kiriak said:


> Awwww what a lovely sight. All those lovely dogs (proper animals) enjoying a day out hunting. Its what they have been selectively bred for
> and what they enjoy. Good luck to em eh? :2thumb:


yeah i got so much pleasure watching the pups come along i have two at the moment there 12 weeks old of course everything is a game at mo but you can already see the basics of two good working dogs :2thumb: there parents love working and our old dog whos ten now still loves coming out beating with me and can still do a days work (even though i only let him do half evil mum:devil how many ten year old pet dogs could do that! the mum knows when its a shooting day and will start chucking her food dish against her kennle at 6am to let me know she is ready to go :lol2:


----------



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

theres hunting and then there hunting! you say about badger baiting that is now illegal and all us law biding hunters dont do it and actually i have never done it to me a badger is not a pest a farmer has never rang me and said theres hundreds of badgers on my crop! where i do get calls saying theres hundreds and rabbits/pigeons and these i control then what i shoot feeds me and feeds my animals.

then foxes normally get called out to a pig farm or sheep as a fox is killing whole litters of piglets by biting there heads of then not taking them! so i go and cull them then the foxes head goes to the local taxidermist i keep the brush and the rest the local fly fisherman use.

if i didnt go to help these farmers when he has large numbers he is losing money money to feed his kids so i am doing him a service helping to keep food on his table.

i cant really comment on terriers anymore as i use rifle and shotgun as no room in the kennles for terriers, but my friends still use them and there are getting calls to go now the crops are coming in and there are gettign 400+ rats imagine how much crop that is that the farmer is losing.

so at the end of the day we can argue over this subject to the cows come in but while there is a need for me to hunt i will along with my friends.
Clare


----------

