# Worming Amphibians?



## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

Anyone one on here wormed there frogs or toads? just looking for their thoughts and experiences on it really.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

wayne the pain said:


> Anyone one on here wormed there frogs or toads? just looking for their thoughts and experiences on it really.


 Wayne,the best way to go about this is to get a fecal done,by a vet,they can then recommend a treatment based on what they find,not only type of wormer but strength and duration times with regards to both parasite and host

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I've done it a few times, using Panacur purchased from Dartfrog. Vets are all very well, but if parasite load is effecting health then by the time you get the fecal results back your frogs can be quite dead. Then there is finding a vet who knows a single thing about amphibians, but isn't 100s of miles away, otherwise you run the resk of a vet prescribing a wormer that is actually harmful to phibs...

In a world where phib vets were easy to find, and getting fecals done was fast and efficient, then yes vet consulation would be the absolute best route. We don't live in that world though, we live in a world where 70% of the time the keeper knows more about their phibs than their vet does.

Ade


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Wolfenrook said:


> I've done it a few times, using Panacur purchased from Dartfrog. Vets are all very well, but if parasite load is effecting health then by the time you get the fecal results back your frogs can be quite dead. Then there is finding a vet who knows a single thing about amphibians, but isn't 100s of miles away, otherwise you run the resk of a vet prescribing a wormer that is actually harmful to phibs...
> 
> In a world where phib vets were easy to find, and getting fecals done was fast and efficient, then yes vet consulation would be the absolute best route. We don't live in that world though, we live in a world where 70% of the time the keeper knows more about their phibs than their vet does.
> 
> Ade


I took both of my phibs that were ill this year (both purchased from the same pet shop, mentioning no names) to my 'local' vet (two hour round trip) I wasn't confident with the vet at all, with in having treatment prescibed (she even said it was 'experimental') and coming back with a huge bill each time, both passed away within a very small time scale after takening them to the vets, can't say I was happy with the service at all.

These days I'm not so quick to drive off to the vets (and never purchase stock from petshops, 90% of the ones I have got from pet shops have had trouble down the line in one way or another), I've had a greater success nursing exotics back to health on my own, cheaper and with positive results!


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> we live in a world where 70% of the time the keeper knows more about their phibs than their vet does.
> 
> Ade


 
I was just discussing exactly that in the local reptile shop 2 days ago.
We have no vets here that I know of who know anything about reptiles and phibs.

Mike


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## RubyTiger (Dec 12, 2012)

When I started out with amphibians, I found that my first toads had worms and an exotics shop gave me levacol (if I remember rightly) and was told to dab the liquid on their backs with a cotton bud rather than dropping the liquid on like the instructions state because the treatments can be strong, particularly for smaller species. It might be a good idea to ask an exotics shop which is experienced with amphibians for something as a lot of shops will have something for the animals they get in stock, particularly wild caught 'phibs since it is usually wild caught individuals you will find have parasites.


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## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

Thanks for all replys. My girlfriend works for a vet and already spoken to a them about it, the vets did some ringing round for me to check what wormers are safe for phibs, as Wolfenrook said Panacur was recommended. The toads i have seem fine in themselves and in good condition, they eat like pigs, but being wc would like to do them.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Be careful.We had an exotic vet speak at the local club a couple of months ago..I asked him about worming reptiles and amphibians.He said that the only animals that he routinely worms are cat,dogs,and domestic fowl.

He went on to say that in his opinion he only does this after a simple faecal test which they do on site and tests for the eggs of the worms.The faeces are put in a centrifuge and the eggs float to the top and are taken out and viewed under a microscope.

Apparently most animals (including humans) can live perfectly well with small parasite loads.The other factor is that if the worms are killed and not excreted( because they are not in the gut) they can decompose abnd cause the host more problems than when they were alive.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

If your phibs seem healthy (gaining or maintaining weight) then it's probably not neccessary to worm them. If however they just don't gain weight regardless of how much they eat then that's when I bring out the Panacur.

As Colin says, they can live quite happily with a small amount of parasites, and often do both in captivity and in the wild. It's usually when some form of stressing phenomena weakens them that the worms take a hold and become a problem. It wont hurt to keep a little pot of Panacur to hand though, as you don't know when it's going to be needed. The ones from Dartfrog come with instructions on how to treat, and I know from experience that this works. I've successfully treated d. tinctorius Regina, d. leucomeals, d. tinctorius Alanis and various oophaga pumilio following these instructions.

I would however point out that if the worms aren't in the gut, then no amount of faecal examinations are going to actually detect them, so if this was a vets argument for getting faecals done, well he didn't think that one through very well did he. lol I should say the only way you are going to identify parasites living outside of the gut in an amphibian is going to be via a post mortem examination, at which point it's a bit late really to treat them.

Ade


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> I would however point out that if the worms aren't in the gut, then no amount of faecal examinations are going to actually detect them, so if this was a vets argument for getting faecals done, well he didn't think that one through very well did he. lol


Why do you say that? Sounds like he was simply providing an educated opinion... 

There is good reason for testing fecals three times a week apart - as is the standard protocol. This is to ensure that you catch a reproductive cycle for non gut-dwelling parasites. 

Stu is bang on - if you are concerned, try to get fecal samples to a specialist vet for analysis before treating. They are not common, but certainly not impossible to find. The distance is less important since the invention of the postal service. If you are buying captive bred frogs from a responsible breeder then it really should not be an issue, and some parasites will always be present as has been mentioned. The issues arise when buying wild collected frogs or from a breeder who is not overly careful about the conditions froglets are raised in.

Having said all of that I have used panacur on a number of frogs without evidence of parasites and have never had a problem. Levacol is a different matter and should be used with greater caution for the reasons outlined above - i.e. worms dying and not being excreted.

Nick


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Nick,there is some debate whether herps contract pinworms through livefood.What are your views on this?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

colinm said:


> Nick,there is some debate whether herps contract pinworms through livefood.What are your views on this?


Isn't that a question for it's own thread really? Rather than hijacking.

Nick, what do you mean "why do you say that"? A vet tells somebody that they're best not treating without getting fecals done first, and goes on to talk about one of the reasons been "parasites not in the gut wont be passed, and so may cause more problems" or words to that effect. So it's kind of logical that if the parasite isn't in the gut, nor are it's eggs......... Educated opinion? Not really, more like backwards logic. Just because a person is educated, doesn't mean that all of their opinions are.  The fact is, vets stand to make money if folks go to them to have tests done rather than just using some Panacur, as per the correct dosage regime.

As to putting fecal samples in the post, good luck with that. You might get more luck with sending the samples via SD by 1pm, but use 1st class and it could take up to a week for them to arrive. Then you have to wait for the vet to get around to actually testing them, then wait for the results etc. If your phib is fading fast, sometimes you just don't have this sort of time. Hence I keep some Panacur to hand.

Not much point me arguing though, as I know you folks just get angry that I don't agree with you. The OP asked where to get wormer from to use, well the answer is you can get Panacur from Dartfrog, further I have never heard of anybody's animals been harmed from using Panacur as per the dosing instructions. If they wish to run a course of it in prophylaxis, this is their choice. I will however agree though that I wouldn't use Levacol etc without consulting a specialist vet first. That said, playing devils advocate, few people are going to spend a lot of money on vet fees for an animal that cost them £12 for example. Most folks are just going to try to treat them theirselves, myself included.

Ade


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## Muggs (Feb 9, 2011)

Is it (in your opinions) good practice to worm periodically even if your frog looks healthy?


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## RubyTiger (Dec 12, 2012)

Muggs said:


> Is it (in your opinions) good practice to worm periodically even if your frog looks healthy?


Personally I'd say no. I think they should be treated if you suspect worms and feel it may cause your animal harm. Then when you treat them you should ensure your animals a fit to recieve treatment and should be otherwise healthy. But as for doing it without suspecting parasites, as in 'just incase', I'd say no because as has been said, they can live and be fine with a small amount of parasites. In this case the animal may not be affected by the parasites unless it is subject to stress and this allows the parasites to 'take over' whilst the immune system is compromised. In this case you could wonder whether or not it's good practice to treat them before a time where you think they may become stressed ie changing habitat, moving, transportation and things like that. But that's my opinion, for now. Others may have a better answer/explanation.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Muggs said:


> Is it (in your opinions) good practice to worm periodically even if your frog looks healthy?


Another no here. Don't try to fix what isn't broken.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I think i`ll add my tuppence worth here.
Frog gets sick.
Keeper looks for a fresh fecal.
Keeper eventually finds a vet willing to test said fecal.
Keeper goes to post office and sends off for a test to be done.
Royal Snail first class eventually arrives a week later.
Vet get around to doing the test, sometime, guaranteed it won`t be right away.
Eventually vet gets a result and eventually sends result back to the keeper by Royal Snail.
Keeper gets result.
Oops, after all that the frog is dead.
Being a nice concerned vet he sends keeper a nice bill for probably the best part of 100 quid, for nothing.
My main question here is.
Once you find a sick frog how long is it till they die ?
From my experience, NOT LONG, maybe even days.
Most keepers keep some Panacur just in case.
But most of the time once a frog becomes sick there is NO coming back.
Once they hit that slippery slope it`s over.
So the way I see it.
£100 quid to the vet ?
Or, £5.99 to Dartfrog ?
Well I have Panacur in the drawer just in case as it`s more reliable than a vet.

Mike


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## Muggs (Feb 9, 2011)

RubyTiger said:


> Personally I'd say no.





Wolfenrook said:


> Another no here. Don't try to fix what isn't broken.


Thanks for the replies, I quite like threads like these, very informative and useful to me (and others hopefully  )


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> I think i`ll add my tuppence worth here.
> Frog gets sick.
> Keeper looks for a fresh fecal.
> Keeper eventually finds a vet willing to test said fecal.
> ...



Or, put another way - with taking it to a vet, a chance (not guaranteed) of a proper diagnosis and the most appropriate treatment, giving your amphib the best possible chance - or pure guesswork that parasites are the problem, and treating with a drug that may be entirely inappropriate.

I'm not saying a vet will definitely be able to get an answer - amphibian medicine is not as advanced as it might be, and practicalities (mainly size issues, but it has to be said also often owner unwillingness to pay - yes test etc do cost money) limit diagnostics in many cases. 

Of course, when it comes to analysing possible husbandry issues, advice from experienced keepers can be very helpful. But for medical diagnostics, and most treatments, you should consult a vet. It may (not will, but may) save your amphibians life. 

Taking dosing advice from the internet can be very dodgy - I've often seen drugs recommended by people with amounts (not doses) listed, apparently oblivious of the fact that there might be different preparations of that drug, of different strengths, available Without being clear what concentration and preparation (both of which could lead to fatal problems if wrong) are being used/recommended, such advice could be fatal for your amphibs (not saying that's the case here).

Obviously the case described was not good for the frog (working with a local vet willing to consult with a more experienced colleague might have been a better option, if available), but blanket vet-bashing is potentially costing amphibian lives.

Just a thought.

Oh, and (some) non-gut parasites - e.g. lungowrm, probably the commonest parasite seen in amphibs, can be diagnosed on faecal examination. That comment was nonsense.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.


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## johnre14 (Aug 30, 2012)

HerpvetUK said:


> Or, put another way - with taking it to a vet, a chance (not guaranteed) of a proper diagnosis and the most appropriate treatment, giving your amphib the best possible chance - or pure guesswork that parasites are the problem, and treating with a drug that may be entirely inappropriate.
> 
> I'm not saying a vet will definitely be able to get an answer - amphibian medicine is not as advanced as it might be, and practicalities (mainly size issues, but it has to be said also often owner unwillingness to pay - yes test etc do cost money) limit diagnostics in many cases.
> 
> ...


I was reading this thread with interest, and was going to post something very similar.... so instead I will say I feel compelled to agree with the above! 

John


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

HerpvetUK said:


> Oh, and (some) non-gut parasites - e.g. lungowrm, probably the commonest parasite seen in amphibs, can be diagnosed on faecal examination. That comment was nonsense.


^^^ This is what I was getting at - perhaps the direct approach is the way to go in future!!:lol:

Ade, apologies if I come across as terse - I sometimes post quickly and directly, but I am certainly not "angry". It frustrates me when bad info is put forward in this way. Sometimes these things are a matter of opinion but sometimes, as in this case, it is a point of fact. 



Wolfenrook said:


> A vet tells somebody that they're best not treating without getting fecals done first, and goes on to talk about one of the reasons been "parasites not in the gut wont be passed, and so may cause more problems" or words to that effect. So it's kind of logical that if the parasite isn't in the gut, nor are it's eggs.........


What seems logical to you is not always correct. As pointed out above, the eggs and early life stages of lung worms, for example, can be found in fecal samples. Otherwise the parasite would presumably be relying on frogs coughing on each other in order to propagate...



Wolfenrook said:


> Educated opinion? Not really, more like backwards logic. Just because a person is educated, doesn't mean that all of their opinions are.


Couldn't agree more - some highly educated people say some very stupid things. That doesn't alter the facts of the discussion we were having; lungworms can be detected from a fecal sample.



Wolfenrook said:


> As to putting fecal samples in the post.....If your phib is fading fast, sometimes you just don't have this sort of time. Hence I keep some Panacur to hand.


This is the last point I'll comment on. Fecal testing is not supposed to be used only as part of a treatment regime when a frog is already sick - it is supposed to be preventative. Treating a very sick frog should be an absolute last resort. You will presumably disagree fundamentally with this approach given that you consider quarantine of new animals to be "a joke anyway", but humor me for a minute:

- Frog goes into quarantine.
- Panacur given if you are comfortable doing that - not necessarily recommended but I, like you, have never had problems. This should strip out most of the gut parasites.
- Fecal sample taken and posted to lab. Provided it stays moist there is no problem with this taking a few days.
- Result comes in and if additional parasites are present and are determined, by someone who knows what they are talking about, to require treatment this can be provided. Some caution is required for reasons outlined by other posters.
- Subsequent tests after 7 and 14 days will confirm the result.

After this very simple process, with other flourishes if you wish, you can then add a frog to an existing group with confidence. The alternative seems to be (with a little exaggeration for dramatic effect):

- Impulse buy a frog.
- Add it to an occupied viv. 
- A couple of weeks later after the frog has recovered from the stress of the move and come out of hiding you notice it is thin/sick.
- Post on a forum to seek help.
- Maybe contact a vet when this is recommended but most likely not, due to general negativity in responses.
- Possible treatment with panacur.
- Frog may survive or may not. 
- Either way, viv will now be contaminated with infected fecal matter, maybe the remaining frogs become infected and die too.
- Viv re-populated or stripped out and plants moved around, infecting other vivs, and frogs spread around other collections.

I'm not suggesting you have personally had this experience, but the number of times I hear the story is unreal. It could be prevented in 90% of cases by proper QT and testing - two things that you and others seem to disapprove of for reasons that I don't fully understand.... On the basis of this thread that disapproval seems to be based on completely inaccurate information and could be doing a great disservice to newcomers who take your word as gospel. 

As a side note, Colin, sorry I don't know about crickets and pin worms. I have heard about the issue but have never had a problem myself. The only way to be sure crickets are clean, I suppose, is to raise your own (if you can stand the smell!!)

Nick


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Bruce
I think the point of all this is the fact that there are very few vets it would seem who are in fact able to work on frogs.
The majority of people I presume think of vets being people who work on cats, dogs, horses and cattle.
Another issue is the amount of money charged by vets/doctors across the world, not just here.
Extortionate amounts of money comes into it.
It`s ludicrous the amount of money people are expected to pay.
Especially as that vet will willingly take your money when in fact they have no experience or have no idea whats wrong with your treasued frog in which case they`ll end up taking a guess as to whats wrong and then prescribe the wrong treatment which will kill your frog.
Wouldn`t it be better to say "sorry but i`ve no idea how to treat your frog" instead of pretending ?
As has been posted already, most keepers keep some basic stuff at hand to try and help the frog, and yes it doesn`t always work.
But, sometimes it does.
It is also a fact that in many cases the frog is well on its way before the keeper sees something is wrong.
So what is the point in taking out a bank loan for a vet to say I don`t know whats wrong ?
Better to keep some simple meds in the drawer and then try and fix it yourself.
I have no doubt some people have tried the wrong things and killed their frogs in the process, but, how many vets have killed peoples animals while experimenting to find a cure that works ?
AND charged the owners a fortune for the privilege ?


Mike


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

This is primarily for Nick and Bruce.

The problems we have as hobbyists is that amphibians especially dont show any symptoms until it is too late,they are often dead within a day or so of looking ill.The other is that lots of people on here keep dartfrogs which are tiny so any problems may not be seen on a casual look.Its different with an African Bullfrog. 

I think that you are both saying dont worm the animals routinely,certainly without a vet visit.,In that case how can we reduce worms within our collections if they are apparent?

Longer quarentine periods? If so how long would you recommend?Avoiding any foodstuffs? Never mixing species?Keeping the amphibians in sterile environments?

I really can see where Mike`s coming from as a hobbyist because as until recently I have not had much luck with vets with my reptiles.I have now found one locally who is a specialist exotic vet and he rescued a chameleon for me but that was a relatively expensive animal so I considered the treatment worthwhile.

Before I get jumped on here I also keep a dog which I consider more emotionally valuable than all of my herps,but I do have an upper limit of what I will spend on her.Its not about not caring for the animals its about where you draw the line.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Vets can be hugely expensive, and are often not all that sussed on reptiles, let alone amphibians- I take whoevers point it was about 'online advice', but the fact remains that most hands-on experience is from actual keepers. I will sometimes post advice that worked for me, but on this site, at least, I have the reasonable assumption that other experienced keepers will jump in to correct me if they have found different. Which is a good thing.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Slightly off topic but ironically I'm off to see a vet tomorrow with one of our large Waxy Monkeys. First time in a long while but needs must!!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Slightly off topic but ironically I'm off to see a vet tomorrow with one of our large Waxy Monkeys. First time in a long while but needs must!!


Not really OT at all- let us know how you get on.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Will do - booked in for 4.20pm tomorrow in Derby so will let you guys know what happens!


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Right guys, here is my two pennies worth. 

Having been to the vets this afternoon (3 hour round trip), I must say that it was a complete waste of my time but more importantly - 'my frogs time'. I basically led the way from the start and seemed to know more about amphibian health and toxicology than the so called exotic vet. At times there was an uncomfortable silence as the vet ummmed and arrred, even referring to some form of medical journal (lots of page flicking). What really hit a nerve was the fact that he openly admitted that the manufacturers of commonly used medication used for exotics have very vague report and indexes into whether or not they would do more harm than good to Amphibians. There seems to be a black hole in knowledgeable references as to what works and what doesn't. For god sake, if the drugs manufacturer does not know possible outcomes then what chance have we got as seasoned keepers. Like I said earlier, I have used vets before but only on Lizards, never on amphibians. Would I use a vet again for any of my frogs... this is a no brainer - 'absolutely NOT'. I may not be medically trained but I know my frogs and if something is wrong, from this day onwards I will self treat to the best of my own knowledge and experience.

£57.00 for the consultation
£17.71 for the prescription


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Right guys, here is my two pennies worth.
> 
> Having been to the vets this afternoon (3 hour round trip), I must say that it was a complete waste of my time but more importantly - 'my frogs time'. I basically led the way from the start and seemed to know more about amphibian health and toxicology than the so called exotic vet. At times there was an uncomfortable silence as the vet ummmed and arrred, even referring to some form of medical journal (lots of page flicking). What really hit a nerve was the fact that he openly admitted that the manufacturers of commonly used medication used for exotics have very vague report and indexes into whether or not they would do more harm than good to Amphibians. There seems to be a black hole in knowledgeable references as to what works and what doesn't. For god sake, if the drugs manufacturer does not know possible outcomes then what chance have we got as seasoned keepers. Like I said earlier, I have used vets before but only on Lizards, never on amphibians. Would I use a vet again for any of my frogs... this is a no brainer - 'absolutely NOT'. I may not be medically trained but I know my frogs and if something is wrong, from this day onwards I will self treat to the best of my own knowledge and experience.
> 
> ...


So it isn't just me then! 

I used to be the person that when ever anyone asked about an illness, I'd be the first to see 'take it too the vet', I'm not one of those any more! I was so annoyed with the two I took, if anything taking them to the vet was just an expensive way to put them down quickly!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I find it amusing that whoever printed that lable thinks that frogs are reptiles...... Amusing in a bad way sadly.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> I find it amusing that whoever printed that lable thinks that frogs are reptiles...... Amusing in a bad way sadly.
> 
> Ade


And with the fact that amphibians hydrate through their skin they will absorb stupid amounts of the stuff where a lizard would absorb it a lot more slowly.
Damn it but sometimes it`s sad to be proved right.
Hope your frog is going to be okay James.

Mike


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> I find it amusing that whoever printed that lable thinks that frogs are reptiles...... Amusing in a bad way sadly.
> 
> Ade


Doesn't surprise me, someone on the tv the other day called an eel an amphibian. And at college the other students had a hard time explaining the difference...this was an 'a-level' level qualification too :bash:

I've been umming and aahing about taking one of my little lot to the vets, after reading this I'm glad I didn't! On his good days they'd probably not find anything wrong with him, or prescribe something that'd kill him and on his bad days the man handling and stress would probably finish him off. Not worth it for phibs imo!


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> Hope your frog is going to be okay James.


Thanks Mike, so do I! Shes doing ok as we speak so hopefully todays ordeal has not been too traumatic for her.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Keep us informed on her progress then as i`m sure we`ll all want to know.

Mike


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> And with the fact that amphibians hydrate through their skin they will absorb stupid amounts of the stuff where a lizard would absorb it a lot more slowly.


Forgot to mention that my case is ever the more challenging due to the production of the waxy secretion from the secretory glands. Unlike most amphibians, waxy monkey frogs have this protective barrier in place so one could say that they are more tolerant (or even resistant) than most. With that said, this is purely speculation as I am still none the wiser. I'm still playing guess work after seeing a medical expert - GREAT!


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## bobo10 (Sep 10, 2010)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Forgot to mention that my case is ever the more challenging due to the production of the waxy secretion from the secretory glands. Unlike most amphibians, waxy monkey frogs have this protective barrier in place so one could say that they are more tolerant (or even resistant) than most. With that said, this is purely speculation as I am still none the wiser. I'm still playing guess work after seeing a medical expert - GREAT!


Sorry to hear about that mate.....Hope your frogs turn out ok.
3 hour round trip is a long time to be travelling frogs around, so i hope they havent stressed too much from it.
Keep us informed on how they do.
And good luck with your vivarium building rack.... its starting to look great!!!

Cheers


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

colinm said:


> This is primarily for Nick and Bruce.
> 
> The problems we have as hobbyists is that amphibians especially dont show any symptoms until it is too late,they are often dead within a day or so of looking ill.The other is that lots of people on here keep dartfrogs which are tiny so any problems may not be seen on a casual look.Its different with an African Bullfrog.


True. It also limits diagnostics of course - can't safely take enough blood off dart frogs to get much information in most cases, for example.



colinm said:


> I think that you are both saying dont worm the animals routinely,certainly without a vet visit.,In that case how can we reduce worms within our collections if they are apparent?


Sorry, not sure what you mean here. In what way are they apparent? The possibilities that occur to me are (forgive me if one of these isn't the situation):

- You've seen worms associated with significant pathology at post-mortem examination - yes, there is a problem with worms (or at least there was in that individual animal) and all in-contact animals should be treated.

- You've done/had done flotation techniques and determined a significant number of worms (the value of which could be arguable, but leaving that aside for the moment) are present - probably worth treating all in-contact animals.

- You've seen worms (visible or on simple microscopy smears) in the faeces from the animal - similar to above, but much more subjective as to whether this is a significant burden, and hence whether treatment should be carried out (bear in mind that in some cases some worm burden is considered probably beneficial, and in many more cases not a problem).

- You're basing this purely on clinical signs (presumably weight loss, ill-thrift or similar) and have not positively diagnosed worms in any way - you absolutely cannot say that worms are the problem, and you should try to actually find a cause rather than guessing, so that appropriate treatment can be administered.
As I mentioned before, this may not be possible, and trying simple treatments may be an acceptable approach under some circumstances - but it is never ideal.



colinm said:


> Longer quarentine periods? If so how long would you recommend?Avoiding any foodstuffs? Never mixing species?Keeping the amphibians in sterile environments?


Quarantine periods are difficult to put an exact figure on, and it must be conceded that it is possible to quarantine for years and still get problems (due to one or other of the animals/groups being okay with the potential pathogens in/on them, but those same bugs could be fatal for a naive population).
However, the regime described by Dr Nick previously should avoid most problems - and will certainly be much less risky for your animals, collection (and even potentially survival of the species in extreme cases).

Food stuffs are a question of balancing risks - anytime you feed your amphibs wild-caught invertebrates you could potentially bring in a pathogen problem. But I feed my amphibs earthworms - I simply consider that better (nutritionally and "psychologically") for the animals than the "safest" alternative (probably steriilised pellets - and yes, most of mine (primarily newts/salamanders) will take pellets, although they are not always an option I agree).

Mixing species - NEVER a good idea is the simple answer, there are always risks. You may get away with it, and there are obviously well established cases where it is routinely done. However, even in the apparently ideal situation (and only acceptable case, in my opinion) of species from the same geographic range, same general habitats etc there will often be subtle differences in niche, and the captive environment must be suitably large and varied to accomodate that. Risks of direct toxicity and potential pathogen transfer can always exist.

Sterile environments (leaving aside the obvious point that true sterile environments cannot be practically obtained, for any pedants out there) are not advisable in my opinion, for several reasons. However, a balance between hygiene considerations and other husbandry considerations is always necessary. In quarantine, for example (or hospitalisation of an ill animal) the benefits of "hygienic" set-up (in terms of, e.g. reduced environmental pathogen load, improved monitoring etc) may outweigh the disadvantages (e.g. "psychological" stress) although this may be something of a judgement call. Some "normal" level of environmental "contamination" and stress may in fact be beneficial.
Lots of quotation marks there sorry - simply meaning what levels etc are acceptable/beneficial/harmful is usually unknown.



colinm said:


> I really can see where Mike`s coming from as a hobbyist because as until recently I have not had much luck with vets with my reptiles.I have now found one locally who is a specialist exotic vet and he rescued a chameleon for me but that was a relatively expensive animal so I considered the treatment worthwhile.
> 
> Before I get jumped on here I also keep a dog which I consider more emotionally valuable than all of my herps,but I do have an upper limit of what I will spend on her.Its not about not caring for the animals its about where you draw the line.


A couple of general points I'd like to make here (and relevant to some of the more recent posts).

First off, it is true that there is very little hard data available on amphibian medicine, and much comes down to being based on anecdotal (i.e. personal or reported) experiences. Which is not as good as scientific evidence based on suitable controlled studies, but very very few of those are available. We accept there is much to learn. 
However, it has to be said that the same applies to husbandry - I'm not aware of any studies, off hand, that have reared and kept several different groups of a particular species of amphibian, properly comparing different husbandry setups, diets etc over the lifespan of the animals. It's all anecdotal. 
You say taking the experience of experienced keepers - don't get me wrong, that can be very valuable, but you have to bear in mind that it is almost never properly scientific, and it is likely that some of what is considered axiomatic is not really so. 
From a scientific viewpoint, unless an keeper gets all his/her animals routinely monitored for health (ideally including frequent radiographs and blood samples on live animals, and all mortalities fully investigated by post-mortem examination) there could well be chronic sub-clinical problems. How many keepers do that, and can truly say that their animals are really "healthy"?

In my opinion there needs to be a process of working together between the vet and the hobbyist - particularly with the more obscure pet species, you may well have more specific husbandry/species knowledge that your vet, and that should be considered in forming a diagnostic/treatment plan. But at the same time, the vet (probably) has more knowledge than you about anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, pathology and diagnostics, and can discuss the options for diagnostics and treatments. Both sides bring potentially valuable information towards the goal of successfully treating the ill amphibian. You should be working with your vet in my opinion. You have to accept though, that most/many conditions cannot be positively diagnosed clinically, although in some cases the vet may be reasonably sure on clinical grounds.

In terms of costs, resources are of course always finite, and that can be an issue - as you say, it's about where you draw the line.

I have to say that it is in my experience not uncommon for a client to visit a vet with animal with health problem, be advised that there could be multiple possible causes which would fit the clinical picture, and have further diagnostic tests recommended. Owner declines because they cost too much. Result: no diagnosis, probably dissatisfied client when animal doesn't get better. And, I would add, one who, if reporting this to friends, will often simply say "the vet didn't know what was wrong/gave it the wrong treatment".

Working together is the only way to help the amphibs, which is the object of the exercise.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

HerpvetUK said:


> From a scientific viewpoint, unless an keeper gets all his/her animals routinely monitored for health (ideally including frequent radiographs and blood samples on live animals, and all mortalities fully investigated by post-mortem examination) there could well be chronic sub-clinical problems. How many keepers do that, and can truly say that their animals are really "healthy"?


I think the vast majority of keepers on here would agree with we base our knowledge and understandings on our animals behaviour. i.e. alertness, colouration, appetite and general appearance. This is by no means scientific but is our only option as we try to understand our animals to the best of our ability. 



HerpvetUK said:


> In my opinion there needs to be a process of working together between the vet and the hobbyist - particularly with the more obscure pet species, you may well have more specific husbandry/species knowledge that your vet, and that should be considered in forming a diagnostic/treatment plan. But at the same time, the vet (probably) has more knowledge than you about anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, pathology and diagnostics, and can discuss the options for diagnostics and treatments. Both sides bring potentially valuable information towards the goal of successfully treating the ill amphibian. You should be working with your vet in my opinion. You have to accept though, that most/many conditions cannot be positively diagnosed clinically, although in some cases the vet may be reasonably sure on clinical grounds.
> 
> In terms of costs, resources are of course always finite, and that can be an issue - as you say, it's about where you draw the line.


I could not agree more however we as hobbyists do this for pleasure. A vets practise is a business and does this for money. How does one bridge this gap. Surely there must be institutes around the globe (zoos, museums, universities, conservation centers) working on scientific data within controlled environments that are documenting such data. Does this data not get manifested into workable material within the medical profession?


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I think the vast majority of keepers on here would agree with we base our knowledge and understandings on our animals behaviour. i.e. alertness, colouration, appetite and general appearance. This is by no means scientific but is our only option as we try to understand our animals to the best of our ability.


Yes, and I'm certainly not denigrating that. But you need to bear in mind that it is not always perfect, and be open to new information.




Terrarium Supplies said:


> I could not agree more however we as hobbyists do this for pleasure. A vets practise is a business and does this for money. How does one bridge this gap. Surely there must be institutes around the globe working on scientific data within controlled environments that are documenting such data. Does this data not get manifested into workable material within the medical profession?


Avoiding reacting too much to that comment about money...yes, vet practices are businesses and need to make money, or they wouldn't be there. Someone has to pay for the facilities, staff etc. Who would you suggest pays for it? Many vets will often take losses on particular cases to help the animals, but that's not sustainable in most cases.

With regards to hobbyists doing it for pleasure - well, they spend money on vivs, set-ups etc, and to turn the argument around, in one sense it's a "business" in that there are limits to what you will spend on it. You may not be trying to make money out of it but you're not willing to accept costs/"losses" beyond a certain point either. Your hobby has to reach a certain threshold of paying for itself (or more likely not losing too much). You can afford to take some loss on it but then you're not trying to live on the money from it as the vet usually is from his/her practice.

Point is, both are (or should be) trying to help the animal, and both have limits as to what they can or will "donate" (whether professional time or money) into the "partnership". It's not a simple, one-sided caring owner versus money-grabbing vet situation.

As for the institutes - what makes you think that? Where does/would the funding for that come from? There may be some, but not many as far as I am aware. As the potential beneficiary of such information, perhaps you would like to contribute? Research costs money, and in most cases the research has to have some return. There's not much return from basic research unfortunately.

Apologies if this comes across as having a go at you, I'm not specifically doing so, I just feel I need to make the point that both vet and owner should be working together to help the animal. 

Hope this helps,

Bruce.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

You make a good point Bruce- but then that's what fora like this are for, to share information. It's a shame more vets aren't members, really. Of course, we can't expect most vets to be really genned up on 'phibs; they are a minority within a minority, compared to snakes in captivity, for example. I would rather more 'general' vets were honest about their ignorance, though.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I can fully understand the frustration of spending three hours in the car and a significant sum of money, only to return with a tube of cream you could have bought on-line for a fiver, but there are other factors to consider - the main one being how realistic your expectations were. 

You would expect a vet to be honest when you call up about the likelihood of them actually being able to help and, cynical though I am, I think most probably are (providing you speak to a vet rather than the receptionist!!). That said, it is true that there seem to be (I am NOT a vet...) very few treatments available for amphibia. It is entirely plausible that silversulfadiazine cream is the only reasonable form of treatment without spending huge sums on diagnostic testing to discover exactly what the route cause is. I certainly keep a tube in my frog first aid kit... People do SERIOUSLY underestimate the cost price of these tests and treatments.

There are things that vets cannot, and in my opinion cannot realistically be expected, to do. I.e. diagnose mystery illnesses in amphibians with virtually no information to base a diagnosis on. I think it's great that you went to the time, effort and expense to do your best for this frog but, in honesty, I would have been very surprised if the outcome was any different. On the other hand, there are things that vets CAN help with - for example diagnostic testing which is where this thread began. In these cases the vet will almost certainly know more than the average keeper. It should not be assumed that because they cannot perform miracles they are also all money-grabbing charlatans.



HerpvetUK said:


> As the potential beneficiary of such information, perhaps you would like to contribute?


I can comment because I have first-hand experience of this. People rightly complain about the lack of rapid diagnoses and treatments available, but will they contribute to their development? Generally not. I recently offered diagnostic testing for a couple of major amphibian pathogens to a large number of UK amphibian keepers, the idea being to screen for prevalence as a first step towards developing treatments. The service was offered below cost price - i.e. we lost money. Still, the uptake was far too low to be of any real use. Who else is going to fund this research if not us?

Following basic best practice, which many keepers do, should prevent most ailments but there will always be some out of the box issues. It would be lovely to have treatments readily available but we have a way to go yet and if any progress is to be made it will require more cooperation and less negativity!

Best,

Nick


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> It's a shame more vets aren't members, really


I agree it's unfortunate. Probably, if we're speaking honestly, because their job is to promote best practice in animal husbandry. There are many on here who do not follow best practice guidelines and are quite vocal about it, and that is their choice, but that creates a clear conflict of interest for a professional and I can appreciate why most would not wish to become involved.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

HerpvetUK said:


> Avoiding reacting too much to that comment about money...yes, vet practices are businesses and need to make money, or they wouldn't be there. Someone has to pay for the facilities, staff etc. Who would you suggest pays for it? Many vets will often take losses on particular cases to help the animals, but that's not sustainable in most cases.


Bruce, there was no malicious intent in my comment about money, I simply stated that a vets practise is a business and like all business, has to make money. If that came across quite sadistically then I can only apologise in advance. Whether I agree or disagree on the consultation charges alone is open for debate.

Nick, the silversulfadiazine cream won't go to waste as I will be keeping this on hand. Albeit I am not going to use it on the sick frog as I still feel very uncomfortable in doing so.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I think it's next to impossible to overdose. You can also make a dilute paste in water and use that to bathe the frog if you are concerned. Someone correctme if that is bad info.

Nick


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

DrNick said:


> I think it's next to impossible to overdose. You can also make a dilute paste in water and use that to bathe the frog if you are concerned. Someone correctme if that is bad info.
> 
> Nick


I got told to thin it down with KY Jelly (no derogatory comments needed :whistling2 and apply directly so may go down that route if matters worsen however even that concerns me.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I got told to thin it down with KY Jelly


Yep, I can see how that would work too!! LOL Have a tube to hand did you? (no pun intended...)


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

DrNick said:


> Yep, I can see how that would work too!! LOL Have a tube to hand did you? (no pun intended...)


The mrs did :blush:


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

DrNick said:


> I think it's next to impossible to overdose. You can also make a dilute paste in water and use that to bathe the frog if you are concerned. Someone correctme if that is bad info.
> 
> Nick


Hi,

Panacur is considered generally very safe, but certainly not impossible to overdose. No records in amphibians that I'm aware of off-hand, but pathology (haematological and gastrointestinal changes) have been recorded in tortoises at (high end) standard doses, and overdose caused deaths in a group of vipers (references available if you're interested - the viper doses varied from 4 to 10 times the top end recommended dose I believe). The other way down the evolutionary path, it's also shown toxicity in sharks at fairly low doses. Not to mentions birds and mammals. So it is reasonable to assume that there could well be toxicity issues, and caution is advised. Especially with smaller amphibs, where overdose would be very easy.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

Edited - sorry, didn't engage brain, for some reason thought we were sill discussing panacur. Apologies, please ignore.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I got told to thin it down with KY Jelly (no derogatory comments needed :whistling2 and apply directly so may go down that route if matters worsen however even that concerns me.


Very useful stuff. :whistling2:



HerpvetUK said:


> Hi,
> 
> Panacur is considered generally very safe, but certainly not impossible to overdose. No records in amphibians that I'm aware of off-hand, but pathology (haematological and gastrointestinal changes) have been recorded in tortoises at (high end) standard doses, and overdose caused deaths in a group of vipers (references available if you're interested - the viper doses varied from 4 to 10 times the top end recommended dose I believe). The other way down the evolutionary path, it's also shown toxicity in sharks at fairly low doses. Not to mentions birds and mammals. So it is reasonable to assume that there could well be toxicity issues, and caution is advised. Especially with smaller amphibs, where overdose would be very easy.
> 
> ...


Still useful to know, though!


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## RubyTiger (Dec 12, 2012)

I don't think the lack of medication suitable for amphibia is down to vets or a refusual for vets and hobbyists to work togethery of that. I think the only way there will be more medication and veterinary knowledge available for amphibia is if the keeping of them in captivity becomes much more popular. Since money does make the world go round I think there's not been enough research done on existing medications and appropriate medications haven't been made simply because there is not a big enough demand. At least not yet.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Bruce,
first up well :welcome: to our little forum.Second a genuine and heartfelt thanks for taking the time,always giving a balanced thoughtful approach to your replies and for bringing your wisdom here damn me your time is appreciated. 

Whist thanking,i'll just quickly pop in a word for Dr Nick for twisting a guy's arm so hard he gave in to giving some of us an opportunity to test some of our frogs in an effort to gain knowledge for our beloved hobby,sad to know you both lost out in an effort to do something good. I know one PCR is never going to be conclusive,but its a start

Without us working with vets we'll always see posts of lost/dead amphibians without knowing the cause. We have already seen something sinister arrive here earlier this year,again what actually took out a good few darts will probably never be known. 

Bruce, much of the talk on this thread has been of money and I appreciate times are very hard for many of us!! Can you lay out some ball park prices for fecals ,I realise not really a treatment more a diagnostic first step,but it might be useful to some to know,whether it is an available option for them personally , especially upon the purchase of new stock
much thanks again
regards

Stu


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Can you lay out some ball park prices for fecals ,I realise not really a treatment more a diagnostic first step,but it might be useful to some to know,whether it is an available option for them personally , especially upon the purchase of new stock


I got quoted in and around the £17 - £22 figure. A long the same lines as the specialist exomed group based in Germany who really do have their fingers on the pulse by all accounts.

Startseite

A kit has been produced by the German brand Lucky Reptile whereby they accept stool samples from outside of Germany:
Lucky Reptile Parasite Test Health Scan Pre-paid test & kit! Gecko Snake Dragon! | eBay

Within the UK, I only know of Pinmoore Animal Laboratory Services based in Cheshire:
Veterinary Laboratory, Tests For Companion & Exotic Animals


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

Hi Stu,

Thanks for the kind comments.



soundstounite said:


> Without us working with vets we'll always see posts of lost/dead amphibians without knowing the cause. We have already seen something sinister arrive here earlier this year,again what actually took out a good few darts will probably never be known.


Certainly true!



soundstounite said:


> Bruce, much of the talk on this thread has been of money and I appreciate times are very hard for many of us!! Can you lay out some ball park prices for fecals ,I realise not really a treatment more a diagnostic first step,but it might be useful to some to know,whether it is an available option for them personally , especially upon the purchase of new stock
> much thanks again
> regards
> 
> Stu


I have to be kind of wary in answering that, and must stress that I can only speak for my practice, which has somewhat different economics from most vet practices.

With faecals, it depends what you want - the more detailed exam (more info), the more expensive as a general rule. Simple fresh smears are generally cheap but will miss a lot; flotation techniques will detect lower levels of certain parasites, and special staining techniques might be used to look at bacterial/fungal flora balance or specific parasites, ranging up to possible other techniques such as PCR for specific pathogens. It depends what you're looking for.

For myself, I will look at a simple smear as included part of a consultation; this may detect worm burdens (if significant) and some other parasites (e.g. should detect coccidia if present). That's very much a "positives-only" thing; it's unlikely to detect low levels of parasites, and definitely won't detect some parasites or comment on gut flora. If I do see worm eggs/larvae there are a significant number that warrant treatment, as a rule; if I don't I would generally consider that while there may be a low number, they are unlikely to be a clinical problem. I don't routinely offer this for non-clients, partly because it is definitely not a "rigorous" exam but a "quick and dirty" screening tool.

For other investigations, I would have to send them out to a lab, and that would depend on specific tests. If you can get an acceptable screen direct from that lab, that is certainly likely to be cheaper (and provided it's from a lab I trust and does the tests I recommend, I certainly don't have a problem with that; I'm not making large profit on tests, but if you do it through me I have to pay tax on what I charge you and also for my time sorting out sample paperwork etc, so it would almost certainly cost you more even if the lab charges me less than it does for you). So particularly if screening a collection, working direct with Pinmore would be your cheaper option. But if looking for something specific, consulting your vet and checking the prices with him/her direct would have to be the way to go.

So sorry no specific figures, but some have been quoted in other posts.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Great info - thanks Bruce. 

Nick


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

DrNick said:


> Great info - thanks Bruce.
> 
> Nick


Could not agree more...!! Bruce could you not setup a franchise in the midlands as you seem very knowledgeable :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Bruce, thanks again,i know not a direct answer but as above a very informative one. Bruce how are hook worms diagnosed and treated? same question for coccidia(although either or both might not be simple one step(or drug),they are 2 pathogens that seem prevalent so worth asking.



James back to you mentioning midlands vets: manor vets have an exotics dept at Edgebaston Brum offer a postal fecal service. you need to contact Marie Kubiak.........Meet the Manor Vets team Marie Kubiak


plus for everyone else,we do have a list of vets folks have used in the FAQ section. Cheers for the link James

regards

Stu


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## HerpvetUK (Aug 24, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Bruce, thanks again,i know not a direct answer but as above a very informative one. Bruce how are hook worms diagnosed and treated? same question for coccidia(although either or both might not be simple one step(or drug),they are 2 pathogens that seem prevalent so worth asking.
> 
> regards
> 
> Stu


Hi,

Both these are generally gut parasites, and can be diagnosed on faecal examination (although coccidia in particular, at least in reptiles, are supposedly very variable - successive samples from the same animal may have widely varying levels of oocysts). Opinions may vary, but as a general rule I would always treat hookworms; coccidia can quite often be present in large numbers in apparently healthy individuals, so treatment is perhaps more of a judgement call. Particularly given that very little information is available on specifically amphibian coccidia.

Treatment is by appropriate drugs - several wormers are available for wookworms, and several specific drugs for coccidia. In both cases scrupulous enclosure hygiene can help parasite burden reduction, and again in both cases expecting total elimination of the parasite may be unrealistic.

Worth reiterating though that as with most (all?) parasites for them to become a health problem there needs to be some sort of upset in the balance of their relation to the amphibs. In some cases (e.g. recently wild-caught animal) there is an obvious potential cause of stress which can be reasonably assumed, but if you get an outbreak in an established collection you should look hard at the husbandry.

Hope this helps, 

Bruce.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

HerpvetUK said:


> but if you get an outbreak in an established collection you should look hard at the husbandry.


Amen to that. Only obviously high parasite load I have ever seen in my collection was from a tank where there were three unexplained deaths - I never believed that the worms were responsible, more indicative of a larger problem (which I never got to the bottom of but which has fortunately never resurfaced!).


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