# Now its starting to take the p*ss



## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

How come people are trying to charge MORE for x-breeds (both parents x breed!) than for pure bred, health tested, kc puppies???!!! 

these are having a :censor: laugh!
Preloved | beautiful bulldog/bull mastiff pups for sale in Dorking, Surrey, UK
Do people actually pay these prices? :lol2:
edit, Do you rekon they added another 0 to the end by accident lol! must have surely?!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:gasp:



lizardloverrach said:


> Do you rekon they added another 0 to the end by accident lol! must have surely?!


Sadly, not!!


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

feorag said:


> :gasp:
> 
> 
> Sadly, not!!


no i thought not....but good god what are they thinking???!!! 
i paid less than that for all my (bar one actually) Kc reg, health tested, pups!


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

quoating the advert.
' EXCELLENT EXAMPLES OF THE BREEDS'

Of which breed? There's 4 to choose from!
DAM: AMERICAN BULLDOG/DOGUE DE BORDEAUX
SIRE: ENGLISH BULLMASTIFF/RIDGEBACK


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> quoating the advert.
> ' EXCELLENT EXAMPLES OF THE BREEDS'
> 
> Of which breed? There's 4 to choose from!
> ...


i know they are taking the mickey, where on earth did they get £1000 from?? they havnt had to pay (im assuming) health testing, KC fees, bva fees, i doubt they'll be vaccinated and vet checked before they leave either....


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

I thinks its because they have now replaced the word mongrel with designer so people see the word designer and for some reason are willing to pay crazy prices for what is still at the end of the day just a mongrel.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It's happening everywhere. People are charging £600-700 for german shepherd x husky and calling it the "wolf dog", I've seen so many ads lately.

A friend recently bought two puppies - chihauau crosses.... he paid £750 each for them, and the "breeder" would only deliver. I told him they'd be from a puppy mill and no breeder would just take the cash drop the dogs off and go and refuse to allow collection or to see the parents, but he was obssessed with having some tiny teacup dogs.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Pimperella said:


> quoating the advert.
> ' EXCELLENT EXAMPLES OF THE BREEDS'
> 
> Of which breed? There's 4 to choose from!
> ...


I noticed that too... all of them, of course! :lol2: 

It's utter madness. I suggest the reason these sort of dogs go fro such silly prices (if they can even sell them for that) is because the people breeding them are greedy and only interested in the money they can get from exploiting their pet.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Completely agree and also sickened by people cashing in on designer crossbreeds/mongrels. Most give the dogs a stupid cross name too, it started with Labradoodle and now has got ridiculous.

On the other hand, anyone retarded enough to pay a grand for a mongrel, especially of those breeds when they're ten a penny in rescue, deserves to lose that grand. However, does the poor puppy deserve such a thick owner? :whistling2:


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Completely agree and also sickened by people cashing in on designer crossbreeds/mongrels. Most give the dogs a stupid cross name too, it started with Labradoodle and now has got ridiculous.
> 
> On the other hand, anyone retarded enough to pay a grand for a mongrel, especially of those breeds when they're ten a penny in rescue, deserves to lose that grand. However, does the poor puppy deserve such a thick owner? :whistling2:




Agree completely...


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Again, for the fact that there are soooo many of that type in Rescue, and a quick flick through preloved there are loads on there free to good home, including pedigrees thankfully some are neutered and spayed to prevent freebie hunting money makers.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

lizardloverrach said:


> How come people are trying to charge MORE for x-breeds (both parents x breed!) than for pure bred, health tested, kc puppies???!!!
> 
> these are having a :censor: laugh!
> Preloved | beautiful bulldog/bull mastiff pups for sale in Dorking, Surrey, UK
> ...


 
i agree with eileen sadly not 

and yups there must be people paying the silly money otherwise people wouldnt keep breeding them !


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

It's like handbags I will buy a handbag from primark for about £5-£10 and then see a dior bag that looks very similar but has a £300-£1000 price tag I dont know who in their right mind would pay that for a handbag? They both do the same thing the only difference is Dior is designer!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Our vet commented on this the other day. He said people bring their designer crossbreeds into the surgery and proudly announce they paid X amount for them and get offended when he says "Why did you pay that amount for a mongrel?" He said its complete madness that these breeds are selling so fast yet KC registered puppies are selling so slowly
The Labradoodle was bred as a Guide dog but since their arrival everyone has jumped on the bandwagon and started breeding the so called Hot crosses. Total madness.:bash:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The labradoodle was _originally_ bred as a guide dog that didnt shed, then they realised that all dogs shed and doesn't make any difference as most dog allergic people are allergic to dander, not hair, so shedding or non-shedding makes no difference to their allergies. Also not all labradoodles will have the same coat/build/energy levels, some will be more lab, some will be more poodle, some will be in the middle and varying shades in between. I could have told them that before they started breeding them.:lol2:

I dont like to think that any dog is "worth" more than another, but I do wonder about anyone who pays hundreds of pounds for ANY breed, or crossbreed. Blu is a pedigree dane, average price of a dane is £600+, but the adoption fee was £200. He came neutered, chipped and vaccinated (so essentially the rescue probably didnt make any "profit"). And IMO we've had better back up and support (and a homecheck!) than most breeders would provide. Not saying there's not fab breeders out there, and I'm far from anti-breeder.


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## Rosikus (Apr 6, 2009)

I have a labradoodle and IMO he's worth every penny...

But I do agree that a lot of people have jumped on the band wagon and are breeding these "designer dogs" (hate that name lol) just for the big bucks. Especially without health testing etc. I've seen some advertised as pedigree labradoodles and it just makes me think ohhhhhhhhh my god, are people really that thick? 

I've heard every insult someone could throw at me for having a doodle, saying I'm clearly image conscious, and all of that. But for me, I got Toby because he was gorgeous, and the parents had a lovely temperament and so does he! I wouldn't be without him now no matter all the flack I get for it. I think if I was really that image conscious and wanted a little designer dog I'd go out and get a chihuahua that I could dress up and stick in my handbag or something (no offence to any Chihuahua owners). And even if Toby DID shed it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference lol.

In fact we're just about to get another doodle puppy! :2thumb:

"Designer dog? Pah!"


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

He is gorgeous, and I understand that theory, just I wondered if you thought about what that money pays for and goes towards. Eg I've seen some gorgeous pet shop rats, and some very pretty backyard bred ones, but I wont buy them now (have in the past) out of principle - as I know that money goes towards irresponsible breeding.

I think lab x poodles are lovely too, but I personally couldn't give someone who bred them purposefully any money because I know that responsible breeders simply dont breed crossbreeds and charge hundreds for them. I would decide which quality of which breed was more important, and go to a breeder of one or the other, or go to a rescue and adopt a crossbreed.

I'm not saying anyone's wrong for what they've done - he really is lovely. But I'm sure there's hundreds of lovely similar scruffy looking crossbreeds needing homes who wont cost hundreds of pounds, who by adopting you wouldn't be supporting backyard breeders.


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## Cleospudtanshi (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree with you Lisa. 

What i dont understand is people are saying its ok to spend X amount of money on a purebreed dogs but think its ridiculous that a crossbreed is going for just as much.

I personally would never pay £1000+ for a dog I think its disgusting purebreed or not. But in another light, so what if people are trying to cash in on crossbreeds, purebreed owners have been doing it for years! but apparantly thats ok?! Atleast crossbreeds come with less health problems! 

All dogs are priceless but i think people are starting to discrminate against crossbreeds & mongrels. In my eyes, my sprollie is worth ten times more than a pug or a pyrenean mountain dog. Everyone is going to try and cash in, the whole ruddy world revolves around money. 

Personally after watching the programme reguarding the Kennel club / crufts / purebreed owners/showers/breeders I will never by a pedigree dog. Why would i want to spend a grand on an inbred mutant? Because at the end of the day, thats what they are. Look at certain breeds now compared to what they were like 50 years ago - they arent even a shadow of their former selves, and dont get me started on the health problems which have 'absolutly nothing to do' with interbreeding...Im going to stop my rant before my blood pressure hits the roof


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## Rosikus (Apr 6, 2009)

I understand everything everyone says about the matter, but at the end of the day it's a personal choice and each to their own. I love doodles so I shall have doodles lol. :flrt:


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## Cleospudtanshi (Aug 11, 2009)

im not saying anything against doodles, theyre great dogs for asthmatics (if thats how you spell it). I love sprollies always will, but all im saying is if people are going to pay stupid prices for a fashion statement (pruebreed or cross) then people will charge. With a lot of people now-a-days dogs are fashion statements, its a sad fact. What happend to the days when a dog was a loyal companion? Now if it doesnt have a ridge or if its the wrong colour it gets put down. 

Infuriates me

f :censor: :censor: heads


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

I think it really depends on which dogs are crossed and why. I've got a mini lurcher, a whippet x bedlington. In this case the intent is to get the speed of the whippet and the working spirit of the terrier, with a rough coat and good feet for working on rough ground. I certainly didn't pay a designer price for Rosie, I saw her parents and related dogs and fell in love with her.
The crosses I don't understand are when pssible health problems are reinforced, like pug x shitzhu. Chi x pugs and jack x pugs, with their longer muzzles can look a lot more like the older pictures of how pugs were before the extremes of breed standard. I have a lovely book about the origins of Pekes, showing ancient paintings of lovely active dogs (a lot more like Tibetan spaniels) rather than the waddling furry caterpillars the breed has been turned into.


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## Rosikus (Apr 6, 2009)

I agree, wasn't trying to argue or anything lol. 

People will always over-charge for puppies pedigree or not, but if people are willing to pay it then there's nothing to stop them really.


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

The reason it takes the p*ss to pay as much for a x-breed as for a pedigree is the simple fact that some pedigree dog breeders have spent years, thousands of pounds, sweat blood and tears, paid for health tests, etc etc and these throw their two mutts together and also want a £1000

these people are thinking easy money not bettering breeds or health. 

what other reason is there for throwing your two mutts together and hoping for the best?


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

lizardloverrach said:


> The reason it takes the p*ss to pay as much for a x-breed as for a pedigree is the simple fact that some pedigree dog breeders have spent years, thousands of pounds, sweat blood and tears, paid for health tests, etc etc and these throw their two mutts together and also want a £1000
> 
> these people are thinking easy money not bettering breeds or health.
> 
> what other reason is there for throwing your two mutts together and hoping for the best?


How can you honestly say that when you look at how inbred some of the dog breeds are nowadays and compare them with examples from 50 or 100 years ago? If the genetics were healthy then there wouldn't be so many hereditary problems that have to be tested for. 
German shepherds that wobble because of the 'desirable' sloping back! A travesty on a beautiful active working breed!


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Cleospudtanshi said:


> * At least crossbreeds come with less health problems!*


Not entirely true. A crossbred can carry any defects that said purebreds that were crossed together, carry.

Cross two different breeds that both carry eye faults, then regardless of being a cross, puppies will either carry, or be effected from that eye condition. Some will be clear but it runs on luck of the draw as to which pups, if any, will be clear.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

diamondlil said:


> How can you honestly say that when you look at how inbred some of the dog breeds are nowadays and compare them with examples from 50 or 100 years ago? If the genetics were healthy then there wouldn't be so many hereditary problems that have to be tested for.
> German shepherds that wobble because of the 'desirable' sloping back! A travesty on a beautiful active working breed!


 
I moarn the GSD. Such a strong and respected breed reduced to staggering about a ring.
So few now who breed strong working GSD's anymore.


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## Cleospudtanshi (Aug 11, 2009)

point taken but as a general rule there are less heriditary problems than pure breeds, i dont know as many crosses with hip dysplasia and those sorts of problems.

Its not just GSDs look at labs, i work at a boarding kennels and its horrible to see some of the dogs that come in with HD - 18 months old and on gentle exercise and medication for the rest of their lives 

:cussing:


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*pedigree v cross breed*

on the plus side though selective breeding can also successsfully breed these faults out ,where as indiscriminate breeding cannot.As far as bulldogs and a few other breeds are concerned the high price of a puppy is to a certain extent reflected in the high cost of producing a litter.Bulldogs for instance usually need medical help, which costs a significant sum, to whelp and a great deal of time spent rearing the pups plus high costs for the use of a stud dog.It maybe that some people find this wrong but it remains a fact.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Sadly,bulldog crosses are very common these days,purely to cash in on the high price bullies go for.(as already mentioned,99% have to be delivered by caesarean due to their shape).


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## Tyrone (Aug 22, 2009)

Some people would prefer a cross breed to pure bred, I'm not saying they should be mega expensive but i personally would pay more for a mungral than a pedigree. Of all the dogs i've had or my family has owned they have all had serious health issues and we have had to have them put down young. Even my dane now is a big vet bill. (my girlfriend had her when we got together). I say its up to the individual and why shouldn't some one else cash in for a change rather than the breeders making a mint on overpriced inbreds


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## Cleospudtanshi (Aug 11, 2009)

The other point is why pay money for something that is unbelievably cruel. Brain damaged CKC, bulldogs with breathing problems, GSDs, to name but a few. 

Its not fair, through human greed poor animals are suffering for fashion and asthetic reasons. I dont care if a ridgeback has a ridge or not, its the personality and temperament of the dog that matters


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

diamondlil said:


> How can you honestly say that when you look at how inbred some of the dog breeds are nowadays and compare them with examples from 50 or 100 years ago? If the genetics were healthy then there wouldn't be so many hereditary problems that have to be tested for.
> German shepherds that wobble because of the 'desirable' sloping back! A travesty on a beautiful active working breed!


responsible breeders will test for any problems thouroughly.
cross breeds can have as many health problems, you just dont hear about it because its not breed-specific. 
ive seen many large breed crosses in rescues that are in a terrible state at a young age. 
and i agree, the dogs of old were healthier and stronger, but theres not alot we can do about that, except try and not in-breed so much, and breed only the healthiest of dogs together. 

If my dogs came back after checks as being not great health i would have them spayed asap. thats the problem though people dont, i know of a guy who is still studding his mastiff out even with a hipscore of 50, because he's 'such a great example'............. thats the bloody problem.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*cross v pedigree*

I would also have either cross or purebred.I have 3 pure breds and one cross at the moment and value them all the same.There is a frenchbulldog x jackrussel on preloved at the moment.I would be interested in this dog but not at a cost of £500.A purebred frenchbulldog would have been costly to produce and I would expect that cost to be past on to the purchaser.How can the high cost of this puppy be justified.It makes me think exploitation.Upto £250 would seem to me a reasonable price for a small cross breed.


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## Tillies reptile rescue (Aug 22, 2009)

another thing aswell is its coming up to christmas, alot of people put puppy prices up at this time of year. 
I personally think its horrible, when we was looking for a dog we wanted a cross breed, and it shocked us at how much people were charging, spesh mastiff crosses. there was one person who had bulldog cross xxxcrossxxx and was asking around the £600 mark and they didnt even come with injections !! 
We paid £150 for monty, his mastiff cross and the woman was only recovering her costs as his litter (should point out she hadnt breed montys litter the lady that did had their mum put to sleep when they was afew weeks old and left the puppies to die) had to be bottle fed and had alot of trips to vets etc. 
Miley we paid standard £80 rehoming fee. 
Sad thing is whilst people are willing to pay it, people will carry on charging it.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

See there's good and bad pedigree breeders too. I do agree that some pedigree breeders are no better than the BYBs making designer crosses. I dont believe (however much spin the BBC tried to put on it) that it is the majority. There are health tests that pedigree breeders HAVE to perform, but BYBs dont. Whilst the KC papers are not a sign of a good breeder, if someone isn't KC registering they are hiding something. Usually breeding too often from the same bitch (poor lass).

A good breeder wont need to advertise, their reputation will go before them and they will have long waiting lists. Far too many people think that because their dog is pedigree that makes it breeding quality when the truth is a breeding quality dog is actually a rare thing and something good breeders have to work very hard towards. A good breeder performs all health checks and only breeds from healthy animals with brilliant temperaments. Your average backyard pedigree breeder however just wangs two pedigree dogs together without doing this.

I would pay a lot of money for a dog that had had health checks, and it's parents and grandparents. However tbh my budget would max at around £300-400 at most, which rules me out for most pedigree animals.

Eg. I love Blu my dane to bits, but he's too big for me to walk safely (I walk with one or two crutches depending on whether it's a good day or not) so Mick gets all the pleasure in that respect. I'm also very saddened that he is technically an elderly dane, at just under 7 years old and is already suffering from age related issues (as well as hip dysplasia). If (and it's a big if) we decide to get another dog once he's gone (and it's something we've thought very hard about recently), it would have to be a tiny breed that I could walk and hold my crutches at the same time, with the benefit of a longer lifespan and less health issues. Perfect for me would be something toy or miniature. Could I afford the french bulldog I'd love, or the chi? No. Would I be interested in a cross? Absolutely. Could I afford one from these kinds of people? Nope. My _only_ choice is rescue.

I'm not against there being crossbreeds in the world. I'd hope that people wanting to breed would want to try and pick up these breeds we have and work with them to make them healthier. I would hope that anyone who had a mixed breed litter would do the relevent health checks for each breed at the very minimum. Then, and only then, would I think it would be worth paying more than a rescue adoption fee. If I wanted to gamble, I'd go for a rescue and take pride in the fact my contribution would pay towards another dog being helped!


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## quilson_mc_spike (Dec 27, 2008)

without reading the thread i dissagree with what i *THINK* some of you will have said. Because these dogs will have a better lifespan than ANY other dog, who says this isnt to put chavs of and to see who will be willing to pay that much for what maybe 12 years of love?

i would say that i payed through the nose for evi considering she is a staff but we wanted the colour and temperment we got.

for all we know they could change the price when they visit so they know they WOULD have payed that for love as i may not know alot but i know love is priceless x


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I personally couldn't ever imagine thinking 'I must have THIS specific breed of dog and NOTHING else will do'. There are plenty of incredible rescue dogs looking for homes...I just think of the size and amount of play and exercise I'm looking for and then do the meet and greets to get to know their personalities. I didn't pay a single penny for my beautiful GSD, she'd been in rescue for 2 years and was just about to turn 8 so they insisted that I didn't donate (even though I tried several times lol)...I just met her and fell in love. I was terrified of shepherds but then lo and behold, I end up with one! 

Unless you've owned or known many individuals of a variety of breeds, it's so hit and miss to go for a breed for a particular character trait. Dogs are all different, it's better to meet your animal first than simply buy it for its breed and hope for the best. I guess my long winded point is that there's simply no need to be charging ludicrous prices for these poor creatures, there are literally thousands of homeless dogs with exactly the same character traits waiting to be loved. People just see a pretty animal and think 'ooo, that's cute'. Sorry, it just makes me mad that people pay hundreds for mongrel pups from poor backgrounds when they could just as easily home a dog desperately in need.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Going off what pimps said............just cos they are cross breeds dont mean they will be healthier...............i had a huskamute who was displaysic he was 10 months old when he came to me and was diagnoised with it when he was 15 months 

so cross breeds can still pick up things from pedigrees 

I have seen huskamutes up for as much as £700 i wouldnt ever dream of paying that 

i paid £600 for my pedigree huskies yeah as they were a breed i wanted for many years 


But at the end of the day people are paying the silly prices for the so called new breeds when really are just mongrels........thats whats giving them the market and reason to breed more


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

lizardloverrach said:


> no i thought not....but good god what are they thinking???!!!
> i paid less than that for all my (bar one actually) Kc reg, health tested, pups!



Where does it say that neither of the parents is not health tested. I didn't see that.
Are these what are known as bandogs? Drug dealers like this type of dog I suppose and since the drugs addle their brains they really think they are getting something rare, unusual and valuable , so they'll pay the money. Or will they? Phone the advertised in a month's time and see if they still have pups for sale. Then you'll know that people won't pay these daft prices.


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## jnr (Jan 1, 2009)

Athravan said:


> It's happening everywhere. People are charging £600-700 for german shepherd x husky and calling it the "wolf dog", I've seen so many ads lately.
> 
> A friend recently bought two puppies - chihauau crosses.... he paid £750 each for them, and the "breeder" would only deliver. I told him they'd be from a puppy mill and no breeder would just take the cash drop the dogs off and go and refuse to allow collection or to see the parents, but he was obssessed with having some tiny teacup dogs.


I know a guy localy who breeds wolf hybrids..the offspring have to be tested to determine if any of the pups have wolf characteristics..any found to be showing the wolf characteristics are destroyed as viewed as unsuitable for pets..seems a shame to me


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Some of those wolf characteristics made my Nomad the best dog I have ever met. Although, I do wish he barked


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## leggy (Jan 18, 2007)

there £500 now 
incidently in the 80,s there was a pic of a labradoodle it was a accidental mating and it was used as a hunting dog to mark rabbit burrows and flush game for a whippet type lurcher :2thumb:


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I don't see the difference in charging a grand for a cross breed or a grand for a pedigree. At the end of the day they are still just dogs. Anyone selling a dog for a grand is interested in the money.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*cost of pedigrees*

it depends on the breed.Ive had 3 litters of french bulldogs.The first had just one pup self whelped so needed no medical help but the stud fee was high.The second required an emergency cesarean,2 puppies both died ,cost a thousand pounds in vets bills and stud fees.Third litter ,elective cesarean,2 puppies and again a thousand pounds in vet and stud fees.I've kept all the puppies from these litters a grand total of 3 pups from 3 bitches in twenty years.If I'd sold them I would just about have broken even,certainly not made any pots of money.If I had sold one I wouldn't expect the ridiculous amounts some charge but I wouldn't be willing to have let them go for a couple of hundred quid either.Thats the reason that this breed is costly to buy.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't know why anyone would breed a breed that needs a caesarian to birth its young. A frenchie was on my want list but I'll have to cross it off now as I just can't condone that.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*bulldogs*

thats fair comment but for the purposes of this thread that is the reason why a puppy would be of a high price.


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## Tillies reptile rescue (Aug 22, 2009)

I wouldnt ever pay more than 300 quid for a puppy regardless of what it was, I dont buy a dog for what it is, although I know alot of people do. 
My parents paid £300 for a KC reg blue roan cocker, who had a fantastic ped, she is coming up for 17 years old, there neighbours paid £975 for a cocker who apparently had the best ped you could have, had, had lots of tests etc etc it died aged 9.I really dont see how paying more for a dog means your getting a "better dog" unless your going to show I dont see how the ped etc matters, but thats just my view. 
Im happy sticking with my chip as chips rescues :2thumb:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Tillies reptile rescue said:


> I wouldnt ever pay more than 300 quid for a puppy regardless of what it was, I dont buy a dog for what it is, although I know alot of people do.
> My parents paid £300 for a KC reg blue roan cocker, who had a fantastic ped, she is coming up for 17 years old, there neighbours paid £975 for a cocker who apparently had the best ped you could have, had, had lots of tests etc etc it died aged 9.I really dont see how paying more for a dog means your getting a "better dog" unless your going to show I dont see how the ped etc matters, but thats just my view.
> Im happy sticking with my chip as chips rescues :2thumb:


 What dogs do you have Tilly?


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## lilollou (Aug 22, 2009)

i think it could be a mixture of greed by the breeder and more money than sense by the buyer! what would a cross between a bull dog and a shihtzu be called? :lol2:

border collies are the best!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think you'll find that greyhounds, lurchers and great danes are the best actually. :lol2:

(it's really a matter of personal taste and what's best for the home situation - eg a border collie wouldn't be very good in an inactive or non-working home, and a great dane would not be best for someone who doesnt want a big dog) :notworthy:


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