# The DWA "Mindset"...?



## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Hey People..

I'm relatively new here, and actually joined to enquire about bearded dragons.. hardly DWA, more CWA... (Comedy Wild-ish Animals).....

Thing is, a fair few years ago, and back in my own country, I worked with what could be considered "dangerous animals"... they were big, fast-moving, and could certainly take a chunk out of a researchers leg if you weren't paying attention... However, the thought of having a big-ass bite taken out of me is something that obviously I'd rather not happen, but the mental preparation for it was "relatively" easy to get my head around....

Now, the point, most of you guys seem to be dealing with DWA species that envenomate, rather than just bite and eat..), to me, the thought of an animal trying to bite, just so it can inject something that hurts like hell, and kills slowly and painfully, puts me about "more than somewhat"...))

I'm just interested really, what are you thinking when you head toward your hot-room, whether it be for cleaning, feeding, etc.. Do you actually have to "mentally prepare" yourselves for it?? 

And, for those who encounter DWA in the wild as well as "captive", do you find that you handle/treat them differently??? (obviously no cleaning or feeding, thats not what I mean) And if you do encounter DWA in natural conditions, do you find the dealing with them more or less mentally demanding than captive examples..??

Its all just really interesting to me, where I was brought up I was surrounded by researchy-conservationy-photography types.. (mostly french) and I've always been fascinated by what goes on "upstairs" when you're confronted by an animal that you really admire and respect, but is also capable of injecting you full of the devils own death-juice just because it can.....


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I usually find a good few shots of JD helps to calm the nerves before cleaning commences...............(joke)

Personally I try and remove all distractions, ensure that I've got a clear space to work in, get what I need to hand and then crack on. If I'm not feeling 100% then I'll spot clean and come back when I'm feeling better, similarly I won't press an bad situation, if an animal is playing up and proving difficult to move, then i'll leave it and come back another day.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> I usually find a good few shots of JD helps to calm the nerves before cleaning commences...............(joke)
> 
> Personally I try and remove all distractions, ensure that I've got a clear space to work in, get what I need to hand and then crack on. If I'm not feeling 100% then I'll spot clean and come back when I'm feeling better, similarly I won't press an bad situation, if an animal is playing up and proving difficult to move, then i'll leave it and come back another day.


I've always found snorting a line works to calm me down!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

I understand about the JD... although for me it's unrefined Mauritian cane-sugar rum...))

So, your "getting your kit together" serves as some kind of calming or preparation process for you... thats interesting.

When you say "wont press a bad situation"... How far would you take that? Say, you wanted to examine one of your animals for sickness/injury.. The animal's already stressed due to its sickness or whatever, by default this makes it harder to handle, but conversely more urgent that you handle it....

Just out of interest, what do you keep?? Are you in danger of being envenomated, or a "good old fashioned bite n munch"?? Or both??

And does the presence of "venom" rather than just "big-ass bite" make any difference in your own behaviour or preparation??


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

slippery42 said:


> I've always found snorting a line works to calm me down!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


"snorting"?? 

"line"??

I dont know what you mean..........

Ah yes, some elaborate and arcane piece of the DWA keepers equipment...) Obviously!..)


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

Same as, need to stay focused. I've been sick the last 2 weeks so haven't spent as much time with my lot than normal but getting better now, medication that makes you drowsy is enough to keep you away from the nasties. 
Everything must be clean and tidy, that way my head will reasonably clean and tidy and clear minded. Can't even imagine working with those snakes in a mess. 
I stay clear from the room on national holidays like xmas and new years for example and adverse weather conditions, work mostly with the animals at night so that in the event the worst happens, medical staff will be available or on hand easily with quiet roads to travel super fast. 
If I got bitten on new years eve for example with heavy snow/ice and stormy weather conditions and heavy traffic, not much chance I'd make it alive with an ambulance stuck in traffic, short staffed hospital, inconveniencing surgeons away from their families, and probably no clear weather for a helicopter to fly me from dublin to liverpool or vice versa. 
There's so much to think about on my behalf...


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

I wish they'd stock the antivenin stuff here.... but that would be just too much peace of mind for me. I'm happier dealing with my animals on the mind frame that if I screw up I've lost everything. Super careful isn't the word...


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> I understand about the JD... although for me it's unrefined Mauritian cane-sugar rum...))
> 
> So, your "getting your kit together" serves as some kind of calming or preparation process for you... thats interesting.
> 
> ...


If an animal was sick or injured and needed to be looked at Then out would come the tongs and tube set and, come hell or high water, it's head and neck at least would be going in a tube to let me deal with whatever. What i mean by not pressing a bad situation is when say, one of the mambas is deciding that it doesn't want to get hooked out for cleaning and starts it's "I'm going to go faster and faster and then you won't know which way I'm going to go" routine than it's not a good idea to pursue the matter.

As for what I'm likely to end up with in terms of bites, both. A bite from my ETB or scrub is going to hurt like a sod and bleed like a stuck pig, at worst a vein could get punctured, If I need to get the big male scrub out, then he's coming out, no matter how much he fights. A bite from one of the others is a whole different ball game and as such I'm certainly more cautious with them, so if they really don't want to play, then that's fine with me.


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Piraya1, thank you, very interesting stuff..

Also a number of points I never thought of there, such as accessability to medical care, whats going on with the roads etc...

I also see your point about the availability of antivenom, there does seem to be an argument that some keepers could use it as a "safety-net" almost... But obviously thats just speculation on my part...

All of you, thanks for these comments, all fascinating stuff from my point of view, although I'll be honest, a razor-toothed tigershark "concerns" me enough to be careful, but the thought of venom would probably induce blind-panic. Which is obviously not a good thing when you need to concentrate...

The thing that I also notice, and am quite impressed by, are the more "sciency" guys that I see on documentaries etc, like yer man O Shea, who can do what they (and you guys) do, the handling etc, but also be cool amd controlled enough to talk about what they are doing at the same time.... 

Rep and Invert DWA guys seem to have a very scientific appreciation for the animals in their care, alongside an obvious passion for the subject that makes it not as "cold" as a purely scientific keeper would be, this is something that I dont see being as common with DWA "non rep/invert" keepers..., seem to be a less sciency bunch of people, I wonder if the addition of "venom" attracts a different kind of keeper...????

By the way, I hope nobody's expecting a point to all this, I'm merely "Musing"...)

Conclusion, you venomous DWA guys are a little bit odd.. But in a very good way.... I love to see proper handlers and keepers at work, but I cant see me ever joining in.... I'd rather wrestle a pissed off barracuda while wearing spats and a donald duck mask...) than get to grips with some of your "pets"...)


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

stuartdouglas said:


> If an animal was sick or injured and needed to be looked at Then out would come the tongs and tube set and, come hell or high water, it's head and neck at least would be going in a tube to let me deal with whatever. What i mean by not pressing a bad situation is when say, one of the mambas is deciding that it doesn't want to get hooked out for cleaning and starts it's "I'm going to go faster and faster and then you won't know which way I'm going to go" routine than it's not a good idea to pursue the matter.
> 
> As for what I'm likely to end up with in terms of bites, both. A bite from my ETB or scrub is going to hurt like a sod and bleed like a stuck pig, at worst a vein could get punctured, If I need to get the big male scrub out, then he's coming out, no matter how much he fights. A bite from one of the others is a whole different ball game and as such I'm certainly more cautious with them, so if they really don't want to play, then that's fine with me.



So, you cant even apply the same procedure to every DWA animal.. (sorry if thats obvious, it wasnt to me)....

That makes it even more difficult to keep them then, awesome stuff...

Are there many cases of people applying for a DWA license/permit, whatever, and being refused????

Because from what you guys are telling me, there damn well ought to be...


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

are many of you ex-forces?? Or anything similar?


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## Spuddy (Aug 24, 2009)

stuckmojo said:


> So, you cant even apply the same procedure to every DWA animal.. (sorry if thats obvious, it wasnt to me)....
> 
> That makes it even more difficult to keep them then, awesome stuff...
> 
> ...


 
I dont know if Im mis-reading what your saying here, so i apologise if i am. 

But Emerald Tree Boa's (ETB) and Scrub's arent DWA.


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

I think you mis-read what I mis-wrote..))

I was commenting on several things at once, whilst having a fight with my cat about the ownership of my keyboard.

I also dont know what's on DWA and what isnt.. Sorry if I gave the impression that I did..) (I've seen a shitload of "wannabe's" on here, so I'm being careful not to be seen as one eg "new poster!! must be scammer or wannabe" etc etc)

Basically, I'm interested in how/why you guys do what you do with animals that have venom. It shits me right up, therefore its interesting..)


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Piraya1, thank you, very interesting stuff..

Also a number of points I never thought of there, such as accessability to medical care, whats going on with the roads etc...

I also see your point about the availability of antivenom, there does seem to be an argument that some keepers could use it as a "safety-net" almost... But obviously thats just speculation on my part...

All of you, thanks for these comments, all fascinating stuff from my point of view, although I'll be honest, a razor-toothed tigershark "concerns" me enough to be careful, but the thought of venom would probably induce blind-panic. Which is obviously not a good thing when you need to concentrate...

The thing that I also notice, and am quite impressed by, are the more "sciency" guys that I see on documentaries etc, like yer man O Shea, who can do what they (and you guys) do, the handling etc, but also be cool amd controlled enough to talk about what they are doing at the same time.... 

Rep and Invert DWA guys seem to have a very scientific appreciation for the animals in their care, alongside an obvious passion for the subject that makes it not as "cold" as a purely scientific keeper would be, this is something that I dont see being as common with DWA "non rep/invert" keepers..., seem to be a less sciency bunch of people, I wonder if the addition of "venom" attracts a different kind of keeper...????

By the way, I hope nobody's expecting a point to all this, I'm merely "Musing"...)

Conclusion, you venomous DWA guys are a little bit odd.. But in a very good way.... I love to see proper handlers and keepers at work, but I cant see me ever joining in.... I'd rather wrestle a pissed off barracuda while wearing spats and a donald duck mask...) than get to grips with some of your "pets"...)


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## Spuddy (Aug 24, 2009)

stuckmojo said:


> I think you mis-read what I mis-wrote..))
> 
> I was commenting on several things at once, whilst having a fight with my cat about the ownership of my keyboard.
> 
> ...


 
Haha, yeah im half glancing at the screen whilst watching the TV so I probably mis-read it too. 

As for whats on the DWA animal list, theres everything from Venomous snakes to Tigers to a Hippopotamus!

Here is that list: 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/documents/dwa-animallist.pdf


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Spuddy said:


> I dont know if Im mis-reading what your saying here, so i apologise if i am.
> 
> But Emerald Tree Boa's (ETB) and Scrub's arent DWA.


No, but the OP was asking wheter "bite-and-munch" snakes induce a different mindset to hots, as far as I'm concerned, they do, I don't want to get bitten by any of my lot, but I'm a lot less bothered about getting nailed by my 14' scrub than my 2' Echis


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

I should put one of my cats on that, half Bengal, half wild scottish farm-cat, that broke into a "pedigree" enclosure and knocked up my cats mum... He's got the crazy barbed bengal claws, with the size and temperament of a pissed off scottish cat that lives on a cold farm.....

Anyway, cheers for that list. It makes interesting, and occasionaly quite surprising reading. Just making me wonder how many DWA's are within walking distance from me... Not counting the local "ladies" of course....


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm still interested in if any/many of you are ex-forces?? Or anything along those lines.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Yeah, I am 15 years, been out since '96


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2010)

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread, a big thanks to all that have contributed. One thing that has always eluded me is what you would do if you wanted to go on holiday, or had to go into hospital for more than a month. Do you have a back up plan for every eventuality?


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

thought it seemed likely..

The reason I asked was because I recurring theme in what you guys are saying, seems to be "discipline", or at least "preparation"....at least when dealing with your animals..

I'm not on about the retards who keep venomous animals for "cock points"... of which there seem to be too many on here, but I mean the "real" keepers...

It seems that you do, and know, the same things as "non-venomous" keepers.. (kind of what I used to class myself as, almost).... you got all your kit, you know whats going on in your immediate vicinity etc, if you feel a bit "off" then dont bother and do it another day...

But, there seems to be an extra element to people who have venomous animals, for example the comment about not working in the hotroom at christmas or new year, because of the impracticability of getting to a hospital....

I've just been talking about this with a mate, and he put it in quite a good way "venomous animals are a bit like BMW's, they attract 2 kinds of people, both at complete extremes, cock-deficiant losers, and absolutely 100% serious "Drivers"..., its just a shame for the "drivers", that the car attracts cocks too....""

I've just been reading another thread about inverts, but my same theory applies, unfortunately from an outsiders point of view, it seems that guys like yourselves, who approach their hobby with passion AND preparation, are outnumbered by the losers who seem to always have a camera handy when their venomous animal "escapes" its enclosure.... I dont think the mindset I'm trying to understand, exists with people like that.....

absolutely fascinating stuff, but I dont think I'll be applying for a DWA... ever..)


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Crestie Chris said:


> This has turned out to be a very interesting thread, a big thanks to all that have contributed. One thing that has always eluded me is what you would do if you wanted to go on holiday, or had to go into hospital for more than a month. Do you have a back up plan for every eventuality?


I was just thinking this.....

is it a case of a lot of guys that have animals of this type all know each other....??

I dont mean in a shady masonic funny handshake scratching of backs and fiddling with knobs kinda way..)

It just seems to be a pretty niche interest (actually, it seems like the "niche" is doing it properly)... So I guess you could have someone similarly experienced as yourselves in to look after your animals??? If not, I bet holidays are non-existent... and dont you dare ever need the hospital!!


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

the forces guy will have a back-up, he'll know all the exits thats for damn sure..))


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> I've just been talking about this with a mate, and he put it in quite a good way "venomous animals are a bit like BMW's, they attract 2 kinds of people, both at complete extremes, cock-deficiant losers, and absolutely 100% serious "Drivers"..., its just a shame for the "drivers", that the car attracts cocks too....""


dammit, I've been sussed again!


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

stuartdouglas said:


> dammit, I've been sussed again!


yeah I was kinda thinking that as my mate said it... Unfortunately, although I own one, I have to agree with him...

Getting rid soon anyway, that absolves me quite nicely..)


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

I have nobody I would trust with the care of my animals. No venomous keepers I know of... just double up on water and take off for a week max and get my cousin to check in on the building every evening, keep the vivarium keys with me so nothing can be opened.


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Piraya1 said:


> I have nobody I would trust with the care of my animals. No venomous keepers I know of... just double up on water and take off for a week max and get my cousin to check in on the building every evening, keep the vivarium keys with me so nothing can be opened.


And what are you thinking while you're away?? Is there anything in particular about them that you worry about? If so, whats the main one??

Seems to me, the main two are, them getting out, or someone getting in.. When you have your cousin check the building, I take it you mean the exterior?? What would he do if he found anything?? 

I'd love for some scally to try and rob your house..)


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

I always found it theraputic when working with my animals, probably due to there being no distractions and stress once in the room.


John


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, when I'm away, the thoughts would be, what if someone kills the dogs, and the neighbors, and themselves before even getting in the building, but that's very unlikely! I'm not going to say much except life has been made VERY difficult for a burglar. Over an hours job between 3 people that will definitely get stopped in it's tracks within minutes guaranteed.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> And what are you thinking while you're away??


In my case I have a friend who is quite happy to check on my animals whilst my wife and I are away on holiday or business.

If its just me away chasing snakes on holiday or at work then my wife does all the necessary with the snakes!

She is well insured:gasp:


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

stuckmojo said:


> thought it seemed likely..
> 
> The reason I asked was because I recurring theme in what you guys are saying, seems to be "discipline", or at least "preparation"....at least when dealing with your animals..


Sorry to knacker the archetype! I'm a lady


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Sorry to knacker the archetype! I'm a lady


But you're not a proper herpetologist!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

kelboy said:


> But you're not a proper herpetologist!


:2thumb: lol! Yeah 

I'll post something about the original question at lunch today if I get enough time!!!


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Saedcantas said:


> Sorry to knacker the archetype! I'm a lady


I didnt mention "gender exclusive" anywhere... my saying "guys" was just me.. well, I was saying that... erm...

Bollox, been rumbled... You win, 

If you take the risk of being injected with death-juice, either as part of your hobby, or your work.. then Madam, you are more of a man than I..)

My original point still stands though... whatever it was.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

stuckmojo said:


> I didnt mention "gender exclusive" anywhere... my saying "guys" was just me.. well, I was saying that... erm...
> 
> Bollox, been rumbled... You win,
> 
> ...


I think your guess about ex-forces "guys" just conjured a particular picture and I just meant I didn't fit it and I'm sure there's lots of lady keepers around of various sorts too 

Relevent to the original question; I work with Eyelash Vipers, Adders, Rio Fuerte Beaded Lizards and Cuvier's Caimen. I've got a measly pair of Mangroves at home too 

I (like all good keepers, professional or hobbyist ) work to strict protocols and this includes securing the area of work before proceeding. I have to run through a few basic actions, checks and notifications before I can ever open the enclosures, this ritual in itself puts you in the "zone". 

When I first started working with venomous I would really take my preparation slow, deliberately spend time considering the situation that day and who would be available to help me (and how well they'd know what to do!) and how it would likely pan out should it happen

I've found it easier with time and practice to block out distractions completely or explain the methods/procedure to an observer/trainee without losing any focus. Distractions that can be avoided, such as the radio blaring out or students laughing and screeching in a nearby room! are always stopped before work. 
In the beginning once my training was done, I would get really stressed if someone else was there watching, I preferred to just focus by myself with others close at hand but not in the room. These days I invite people where possible to observe, as the one thing I wished I'd had more of when I started was experience watching others at work and their techniques. 

As others have said, the key thing is only ever working in a situation where you feel comfortable (except in truly exceptional circumstances), if you feel upset, stressed, ill, drowsy, overtired, hungover etc etc you simply don't even go there. 

Eh... waffling now as it's too late!  I'll come back to this


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

that's really interesting, so the preparation of equipment and so on is actually the mental preparation too...

still, you're all mad..

I think the reason that venomous animals shit me up more than anything else, is because with anything else, you can (humans being what they are) give yourself the elaborate ego-boost that maybe, I'll get away from that shark, I'll run faster than that rhino, I'll leap out of the way of that elephant with superhero-like grace...))) Thats obviously until said animal is happily chewing on your spine and smiling.. but up until that point, you can kid yourself successfully...

With something that can inject you, you can run/swim/leap/dive as much as you like, if its got you once, then you're got. 

Ex forces, not in a "showy-off" way, I know of these people, and the good ones dont go on about it... I meant ex-forces, or similar (including emergency services, etc) because there seems to be a theme of routine and quite a disciplined approach to it... ppllleeease dont make me explain anymore... I really am quite dumb, and this isn't my first language..))

I like seeing you guys do your stuff, and it always prompts loads of questions, but I dont have any aspirations to do it in my own home, if there was a course that taught the safe handling of venomous animals, I'd do it, just because I could, but I wouldn't ever want to be licensed to keep any. 

I'd be interested in doing it in a "yes, I have the focus and concentration necessary to do this" kind of way, more than I "look how hard I am, check out my nads" kind of way.... But I would still be more scared than is actually humanly possible...

Now the bull-run (not the one with cars), if that was humane, I'd be off to pamplona like a shot..!!!! 

But not the tomato-throwing festival in the same week... thats just nasty.

also, theres something strangely hot (and a little bit scary) about ladies that quite calmly do weird dangerous venomy nonsense..

Madam, I doff my hat to you..))

*runs off to find top-hat*


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

I'd quite like to keep bees though, they're awesome.

They shouldn't fly, but they can..!!

Original Badboys!!..))


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

stuckmojo said:


> I'd quite like to keep bees though, they're awesome.
> 
> They shouldn't fly, but they can..!!
> 
> Original Badboys!!..))


Hmmmm................drugs and keyboards don't mix.............just say no!


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

seriously, I'd always fancied keeping bee's. Apparently there was some college course a while back that you paid to do, and at the end if you pass it they give you a full hive and off you go..

I never looked into it too much, because where I lived it wasnt really practical.. I guess that's quite hypocritical really, because a boxfull of bee's could probably do some damage.


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## Adam98150 (Jan 12, 2009)

Letterbox bees?


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

Adam98150 said:


> Letterbox bees?


No idea, I didnt look into any further than being told it "might" exist.. There really wasnt any way I could have kept bee's at the time, so I didnt want to get all interested in something I couldnt do. I've never even heard the term "letterbox bee's".. And you'll notice I'm refraining from being a "google-cheat"....)


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I dont have a mind set as such but i wont handle the bigger stroppy stuff if im knackerd after work but will do the normal spot cleaning and stuff.
And i too am ex forces and before i go into my room i get my model kit out and do a walk through and establish SOP'S and RV points and every week i do a route clearance down to the snake room before establishing an OP for three days protecting my parimiters with claymores and bar mines:whistling2:


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## morallywrong (Sep 18, 2008)

Just wanted to say a big thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Has made really interesting reading.

Again...thanks


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Aye...Stuff sleep!


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

How can you look so stoned and still be awake???? Ah, thread pirate Julius strikes again. 

Don't answer that, I've ruined enough threads tonight.


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