# Chacoan Waxy Monkey Frogs (Phyllomedusa sauvagii).



## Alex M

Anyone keep these? Here's one of mine from a group i should really put more effort into breeding...


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## Alex M

Looking nice and dull in this picture, next time i will take a shot when the temperatures are at their highest, at around 100f they tend to be a beautiful VIVID green. Please note, although i just misted these, it is very RARE that these get sprayed with water. They are specially adapted to live in dry terrain - consistently high humidity over any length of time will cause a fungal problem and they will deterioate very rapidly indeed.


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## Ben W

I have a breeding pair of those heat mats of the same species in the pic, does that count,:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Nice frogs by the way!!!


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## Alex M

Sorry Ben, it seems the first image has been deleted by Photobucket, i must have accidentally put that shot up of me in the bath with Cheryl Cole. So, i'll try again...


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## colinm

They are lovely frogs.Some time ago they were being touted as the next fadbut they never really caught on.I suspect that they are not as easy to breed as they were first thought.


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## Alex M

colinm said:


> They are lovely frogs.Some time ago they were being touted as the next fadbut they never really caught on.I suspect that they are not as easy to breed as they were first thought.


I have never actually got round to putting mine in a rainchamber to try, so i can't tell you my own personal experience on this Colin, but i do know they're a challenging species to breed. I got to a point where they were calling and in amplexus within the vivarium by creating a few stimulants but that's as far as i've got with them. There is a chap however who breeds these in England but he's the only one i can think of. Jerry Cole had a go at it but he didn't have much luck with his frogs for one reason or another. In the USA they are bred in huge rainchambers, and also outdoors in Florida. Now i've got sufficient time on my hands, i am going to try and breed them this year, last year i was way too busy but this year i have no excuse. I personally feel one of the reasons that they've not caught on is their prices, they're not a cheap species.


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## richie.b

Yes Al youve got no excuse now youll have to breed them, and as for the price being high i see on some trade lists theyve gone up quite a bit in price this year, must mean theres a demand for them
As i said before these are the nicest examples of waxys ive seen, :2thumb:


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## LIZARD

STUNNERS :2thumb: i really like these dudes


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## Alex M

richie.b said:


> Yes Al youve got no excuse now youll have to breed them, and as for the price being high i see on some trade lists theyve gone up quite a bit in price this year, must mean theres a demand for them
> As i said before these are the nicest examples of waxys ive seen, :2thumb:


Thanks Lizard, and Richie i've been offered big money by a wholesaler in Europe to mass produce these. I'm talking money that would mean i wouldn't have to work for a year or so!. It's an incentive but not my drive. I'm off on a herptile conservation task now, more later!.


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## jaykickboxer

wow there quality best example i've ever seen by far.


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## Alex M

jaykickboxer said:


> wow there quality best example i've ever seen by far.


Thanks Jay :thumb:

I raised 3 of these (i think) from thumbnail sized metamorphs back in the summer of 2008, and got the other couple as subadults soon after. These are all under 12% UVB and fed a very varied diet. Clean water is ESSENTIAL with this species, i know people that have taken their eye off the ball with them regarding 'fresh water in their dipping bowl' and lost them quite quickly sadly - mine get a small bowl of fresh rain water daily, good quality water i reckon is a key factor in keeping this species healthy or indeed alive. I'm not sure they like tap water over time, even treated tap water - maybe wrong though, just a suspicion.


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## wayne the pain

Gorgeous frogs, hope you get them breeding :2thumb:


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## Alex M

wayne the pain said:


> Gorgeous frogs, hope you get them breeding :2thumb:


Thanks Wayne, i have a plan but won't be implementing it for a good 3 months, then we shall see what happens.


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## ipreferaflan

Please please please please please breed these. They're my favourite frog ever and I want some SO bad.
Beautiful.


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## Alex M

ipreferaflan said:


> Please please please please please breed these. They're my favourite frog ever and I want some SO bad.
> Beautiful.


I've always had you in mind should i breed these mate, i will do my best. Cheers, Al


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## ipreferaflan

Alex M said:


> I've always had you in mind should i breed these mate, i will do my best. Cheers, Al


Thanks man. Appreciate it. Well... I wish you the best of luck!


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## Alex M




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## Alex M




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## ipreferaflan

You make me so so so jealous.


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## Alex M

ipreferaflan said:


> You make me so so so jealous.


Sorry about the very latest pics then! Anyway, i'm sure you have amphibians that i may want (can't remember what you keep off hand though!) - Swings and roundabouts


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## richie.b

Oh Al your just showing off now, bloody lovely though:2thumb:


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## ipreferaflan

Alex M said:


> Sorry about the very latest pics then! Anyway, i'm sure you have amphibians that i may want (can't remember what you keep off hand though!) - Swings and roundabouts


hahaha. I've got golden toads.
Shhh... keep it quiet.


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## Alex M

ipreferaflan said:


> hahaha. I've got golden toads.
> Shhh... keep it quiet.


Wouldn't swap Atelopus for these anyway pal .

And Richie, they're the posers - i just took the picture mate! As you know, there's no hiding under bark etc with these guys, always visible - as good a display animal as you'll find i reckon.


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## earthtiger

Hi Alex,

are you still keeping your group of Phyllomedusa sauvagii? Ever tried to breed them?

best regards,
Martin


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## sallyreed

*waxie*

Wish I new how to post a pic on hear lol I have a Sadie and he is a stunner! Lol needs a girl friend now ;-) anyone no of any for sale?


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## Terrarium Supplies

earthtiger said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> are you still keeping your group of Phyllomedusa sauvagii? Ever tried to breed them?
> 
> best regards,
> Martin


Martin, what do you need to know?


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## earthtiger

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Martin, what do you need to know?


I would like to know how others keep them (successfully) (tank size, group size, temp, UV yes/no, type of lights,...) and esp. if anyone had success breeding them and what has been the key to breed them.


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## Terrarium Supplies

Here is the way I have done it for a few years now...

I always keep the females and the males separate now as the females seem to bully the males. 

*2 males*
exo terra 60x45x60
5% UV + 75W basking hot spot for a 12 hour cycle 

*3 females*
exo terra 60x45x60
5% UV + 75W basking hot spot for a 12 hour cycle 

*Oct - Mar drop the temp for both male and females to:*
80 - 85 (day) ... 70 - 75 (night)
*Heavy feeding with some good supplements during this period, tittle and often with the odd pinkie and wax moth.

*Apr - May raise the temp for both male and females to:*
85 - 95 (day) ... 75 - 80 (night)
*Normal feeding during this period
**Increase humidity to 40% (morning and evening light mist) for 4 weeks early Apr ** No Higher!!

*May +:*
Males will be calling @ this point so move them over to a communal rain chamber and the rest just falls into place. 


*Important*

Only cool of your frogs if they are fit and healthy as any slight adjustments to diet, temp and/or humidity and you'll end up with some very poorly animals. If you keep both male and female together year round then breeding can become more challenging. The males seem to become more timid and prone to relapse. Females are the dominant sex in these frogs, bigger appetite, bigger personalities and bigger ego! 


Hope that helps,
James


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## colinm

Thats interesting James.i tried to breed mine earlier in the year but to no avail.I was told to cool them down to about 65f and dry them out before putting them in the rainchamber.This was by an Argentinian guy who regularly bred his but it certainly didn`t work with mine.

How important do you think that it is to separate the sexes,?I have not heard of this before?I have never seen any dominance with mine.


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## vikki_john

Alex M said:


> Thanks Wayne, i have a plan but won't be implementing it for a good 3 months, then we shall see what happens.


Whats the plan?


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## Terrarium Supplies

colinm said:


> Thats interesting James.i tried to breed mine earlier in the year but to no avail.I was told to cool them down to about 65f and dry them out before putting them in the rainchamber.This was by an Argentinian guy who regularly bred his but it certainly didn`t work with mine.
> 
> How important do you think that it is to separate the sexes,?I have not heard of this before?I have never seen any dominance with mine.


Hi Colin, we have to do thing slightly different over here due to the climate. The Arg guy methods probably work well for him being in such a warm climate. Almost impossible to find some solid breeding records from within the UK so I adopted my own methods of which work well for me.

TBH it is only in the past 3-4 years I have done this. Before I would keep my group together but found that the females would dominate the 'hot spots' leaving the males to reside on mid level. With the males separated, I can accurately monitor their feeding patterns, safe in the knowledge that they are eating their fair share of food. Without competing with the giant females as I do not have the time to spot feed them.


I also found that breeding the group when merged together produces a more successful ratio. The males seem to call out for the females when not in direct contact or view. My two males seem to compete their vocal cords in harmony which is quite unique.


James


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## colinm

Thanks James.


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## earthtiger

Hi James,

thanks a lot for your very detailed description - very much appreciated!

One thing which is not clear for me: Have you finally bred them or is this just your approach trying to breed them?

What I find interesting: you start your raining season in May. Regarding to a paper from Domingos et al. (Breeding biology of Phyllomedusa azurea Cope, 1862 and P. sauvagii Boulenger, 1882 (Anura) from the Cerrado, Central Brazil) the raining and breeding season is from October to April, with a obvious peak in December. And regarding to a paper from Halloy & Espinoza (Territorial encounters and threat displays in the neotropical frog Phyllomedusa sauvagii) in Argentina the frogs where active from the end of October till mid of February.
Any special reasons why you have flipped the seaons? Or is it just an adaption to our summer & winter time?

I like the idea to keep females and males seperate and just put them together in the raining season. Might be also an idea for other Phyllomedusinae. ...only negative side effect I see: you need the double amount of tanks! =;-) 

BTW, are your specimens WC or CB ones? 

best regards,
Martin


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## Terrarium Supplies

I breed them every year mate... Nothing better than raising hundreds of baby waxys, seeing them all lined up and perched under sun glows learning how to wax and shine :2thumb:

My breeding quintet are CB, however I have got a further 3 WC (1 male and 2 females) specimens that I plan on breeding with next season for new bloods that I picked up earlier this year (I have a very strict quarantine procedure). A 6 month old CB young pair that I have now separated that may join the breeding group late next year as I don't want to rush these two as they are from a different local due to the high blue pigment flanks (very excited about these little gems).

The main reason I set artificial seasons is down to our climate and what works best for me. I have had a set period for my RETFs for over a decade so it made sense to do everything at the same time (give or take a few weeks).

This may not work for you but for my lifestyle, working patterns and of course the family, everything just falls into place. These frogs are trial and error... Some CB are hard as nails whilst some of the WC just die off. Breeding them is not an easy task, requires patience, time, space and dedication but the rewards far out way these minor factors.


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## earthtiger

Hi James,



Terrarium Supplies said:


> Nothing better than raising hundreds of baby waxys, seeing them all lined up and perched under sun glows learning how to wax and shine


Indeed, I had a similar experience a couple of weeks ago when I bred Phyllomedusa hypochondrialis! =




Terrarium Supplies said:


> A 6 month old CB young pair that I have now separated that may join the breeding group late next year as I don't want to rush these two as they are from a different local due to the high blue pigment flanks (very excited about these little gems).


any photos of these bluish ones?




Terrarium Supplies said:


> The main reason I set artificial seasons is down to our climate and what works best for me.


Have you recognized any impact of the weather outside regarding the breeding activities of your frogs? I know one who tried to breed Phyllomedusa boliviana and he had success, when there was a depression with a thunderstorm in his area. - the air pressure might be an important key for breeding ‘explosive breeders’.


I would like to pick up one aspect once again:


Terrarium Supplies said:


> *May +:*
> Males will be calling @ this point so move them over to a communal rain chamber and the rest just falls into place.


Could you please go a little bit more into details how your rain chamber looks like and since it is a very delicate/"risky" phase (high humidity => risk of diseases), how long you keep your frogs inside of the rain chamber. According to the first article I mentioned above, they breed after the first nights with long and heavy rain showers. Do you start with short rain showers which are getting longer and longer every night or do you - after the misting phase - let it rain from the beginning for the whole night? 

Sorry for so many questions, but since I can get first handy info here… =

Best regards,
Martin


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## Terrarium Supplies

Hi Martin, how did the hypochondrialis breeding go? My little male is calls out every single night.

I'll get some picks on the blue flanks over the weekend as it's the big cleanout lol!

No really recognized any impact of the weather outside. The frogs are in the back part of the house which is fully sealed off. The only part I play is operating the blind shutters. I basically control the amount of natural light that this room permits. Other than that, it all works by temp and hum range.

When I say rain chamber, it is not like a normal run of the mill type. You need a good sized enclosure. I use a spare exo terra 60x45x60 with an aquarium filter foam base (the blue and black sponge stuff). I have a small pilot hole that the water drains out from under the foam layer into a large tub so there is never any standing water.

A High basking light and UV are still in place exactly like their day to day setup however there is only one large Pothos plant that is twisted around a series of roots and Mopani wood that covers the entire chamber (make sure the leafs are quite large / well established plant or the frogs will fall hence the sponge base) - learnt this the hard way!

Next comes the rain fall. The key is to let the chamber completely dry out in the day.

I have a misting system setup to simulate short blasts of rain fall @ dusk 10 minutes before lights out that runs for set intervals. 5 min soaks every 15 min for 5 hours. 

*My ration is 5:15:5

Do this for a period of 3 nights. If nothing has happened in this time then get the frogs out and back in their enclosures and try again in a few weeks time.

If you have followed my steps earlier by splitting the frogs up, you will know your males are ready due to calling out to the females. I would not attempt this if I did not hear my males calling prior to placing them in the chamber.

James


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## earthtiger

Hi James



Terrarium Supplies said:


> how did the hypochondrialis breeding go? My little male is calls out every single night.


I opened a new thread >>click here<< to answer your question not to spoil this one.

Thanks again for the additional infos on breeding Phyllomedusa sauvagii. They gave me some new thoughts and ideas. I hope I can copy your success with breeding this species. I will definitely try it! 

best regards,
Martin


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## [email protected]

Great pic!


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## earthtiger

One aditional question regarding the rain chamber:



Terrarium Supplies said:


> Next comes the rain fall. The key is to let the chamber completely dry out in the day.


any special reasons, why you let the rain chamber dry out completely during the day (e.g. reduce risk of fungus etc.)?


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## Terrarium Supplies

Back in the early 90's when Sauvagii first became ready available in the US pet trade, there was a misconception that these frogs required the same high humidity levels as the normal run of the mill tree frog. Coming from South America, people automatically think of the humid Amazon rainforests of which we all now is one of the biggest misleading facts for the Waxy Monkey. Thus leading to many of the WC individuals that were available at the time to perish.


When I first started out with Sauvagii, I tried to research the Chacoan region the very best I could. As we all know now, it is a very dry, torrid and unforgiving region that rarely sees any form of rain fall. Day time temperatures can exceed the 90's whilst night time lows rarely ever go below the mid 70's.


Safe in the knowledge that these frogs do not tolerate high humidity and just sit dormant during daylight hours. I wanted to keep their stress levels down to a minimum so I simulate short blast of rain during the peak of their activity. If water resides within the day then there is a much greater risk of respiratory problems along with fungal diseases. By letting the chamber completely dry out in the day, the frogs can get back to their normal basking routine. 

There are no climate shock factors with my breeding technique. I try to adapt a calm method and always put the frogs first.


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## mispentyouth

Do you have any photos of your rain chamber please. Also how hard are the froglets to rear ? do you keep them the same as adults or do you keep them more humid . Very informative post on the breeding of these stunning frogs .I have 3.1 and im hoping to get another 2 female to add to the group


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## Alex M

[email protected] said:


> Great pic!
> 
> image



Thank you Robyn


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## Tonybb

i really like this beasts they look so aowsome


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## Terrarium Supplies

Sorry guys, aint been on the forums for a while. I'll be making some videos next season so will try and show you all my breeding methods and enclosures. Just a made a 'monster' dry planted setup for one of my trios. Took the best part of 3 months to complete and establish.


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## Terrarium Supplies

Heres some of of the young I kept this year (meh' Peregrine')... coming on very well indeed!










** This female is going to be hugggggeeeeee!!










** Had a few problems with this little guy 'Murph' but can say that he is now coming on very well.


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## earthtiger

Very cute young frogs!





Terrarium Supplies said:


> image
> 
> ** This female is going to be hugggggeeeeee!!


how do you tell at this size, that it is a female?


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## Terrarium Supplies

Thanks Martin, mainly down to the snout contour and growth rate. Shes massive now and could easily down pinkies.


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## Ron Magpie

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Thanks Martin, mainly down to the snout contour and growth rate. Shes massive now and could easily down pinkies.


Except, of course, that pinkies aren't very good for frogs...


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## Terrarium Supplies

Ron, look at it as treats'


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## Ron Magpie

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Ron, look at it as treats'


Few and far-between treats, sure- I very occasionally give my plated lizard cat food on the same basis. I do think it's important to point out (for those who don't know) that they shouldn't be a regular part of the diet, though; pinkies are very high in lipid fats, which amphibians don't seem to be able to assimulate properly; feeding them regularly can lead to dangerous build-ups of these fats, causing overweight, liver disease, blindness and even death.


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## Terrarium Supplies

I'm sure in the wild the odd Waxy may take down the odd small mammal or rodent where as I don't they have grocery stores in the Sudan :mf_dribble:


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## earthtiger

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Thanks Martin, mainly down to the snout contour and growth rate.


blunt nose = female, flat nose = male?


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## Ron Magpie

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I'm sure in the wild the odd Waxy may take down the odd small mammal or rodent where as I don't they have grocery stores in the Sudan :mf_dribble:


That's the point, though- the 'odd' small mammal. Not as a regular part of the diet.


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## Terrarium Supplies

I'm prob going to get beat down with a stick for this but this is my photoshop vector example lol. Female snout being the dark vector:


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## Terrarium Supplies

Ron Magpie said:


> That's the point, though- the 'odd' small mammal. Not as a regular part of the diet.


I suppose your right... just wanted to get you back for not completing the T-Rex build!


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## colinm

Isn`t it easier to sex them by size?My females are much larger than the males.

Mine love Dubia cockroahes.They are easy to maintain and breed.


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## earthtiger

colinm said:


> Isn`t it easier to sex them by size?My females are much larger than the males.


we are talking about juveniles here.


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## Terrarium Supplies

earthtiger said:


> we are talking about juveniles here.


 That vector is shocking mate sorry!! :lol2:


For juvs go on the snout and you won't be too far wrong. 



Obviously size plays a part when a frog has reached sexually maturity but some males can be quite large too. If you are still unsure, when a male reaches his peak, check is forefinger / thumb for a small black dot - there's your male!


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## Ron Magpie

Terrarium Supplies said:


> That vector is shocking mate sorry!! :lol2:
> 
> 
> For juvs go on the snout and you won't be too far wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously size plays a part when a frog has reached sexually maturity but some males can be quite large too. If you are still unsure, when a male reaches his peak, check is forefinger / thumb for a small black dot - there's your male!


 What m/f ratio is best to keep them in?


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## earthtiger

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I'm prob going to get beat down with a stick for this but this is my photoshop vector example lol. Female snout being the dark vector:
> 
> image


really nice drawings!

So, it is a bit similar as with e.g. Agalychnis annae, where the males have a flat nose and the females a much higher and "blunt" one.

BTW, some also say, females are supposed to have a convex nose and males a concave. See this posting:
Captive Bred Waxy Monkey Frogs. - talk to the frog


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## Terrarium Supplies

Ron Magpie said:


> What m/f ratio is best to keep them in?


Depends on the enclosure size Ron and if one is priming them for breeding. Main my colony is sperated into M/F groups as this works well for me. I have a trio 1.2.0 that get on just fine but these are not for breeding.



earthtiger said:


> females are supposed to have a convex nose and males a concave


I was trying to illustrate this in the vector example :lol2: If you had a group of small individuals and started to line them up for sexing, you would soon be able to tell them apart. Probably to an un-trained eye they look the same but if you hold them up you will see how the female nose contours in a vertical manner. Males have a slight groove of which is not so flat. The height of the nose is also less raised and more of a 'beak'.


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## earthtiger

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I was trying to illustrate this in the vector example :lol2: If you had a group of small individuals and started to line them up for sexing, you would soon be able to tell them apart. Probably to an un-trained eye they look the same but if you hold them up you will see how the female nose contours in a vertical manner. Males have a slight groove of which is not so flat. The height of the nose is also less raised and more of a 'beak'.


line them up like this? Ok, they are not juveniles anymore...


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## Ron Magpie

earthtiger said:


> line them up like this? Ok, they are not juveniles anymore...
> 
> image


Oh! How rude! :gasp:



:lol2:


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## earthtiger

I really love this species...


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## Terrarium Supplies

Stunning mate! Martin I take it your Waxys are all CB? How many do you have and you bred them yet?


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## earthtiger

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Stunning mate! Martin I take it your Waxys are all CB? How many do you have and you bred them yet?


Unfortunately I never bred them. The couple above - long term captive ones - I kept a couple of years ago. A few days after I got them and put them in a quarantine tank (not that well ventilated one), they went into amplexus but I didn't try to breed them. I don't have these specimens anymore. 

Since this summer I have a new group of wild caught ones: 1,2,3.
...these I will try to breed in the future...


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## earthtiger

Hi James,



Terrarium Supplies said:


> ...
> 
> *Apr - May raise the temp for both male and females to:*
> 85 - 95 (day) ... 75 - 80 (night)
> *Normal feeding during this period
> **Increase humidity to 40% (morning and evening light mist) for 4 weeks early Apr ** No Higher!!
> 
> *May +:*
> Males will be calling @ this point so move them over to a communal rain chamber and the rest just falls into place.


 


Terrarium Supplies said:


> Sorry guys, aint been on the forums for a while. I'll be making some videos next season so will try and show you all my breeding methods and enclosures.


any updates on your this years breeding efforts?

kind regards,
Martin


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## Terrarium Supplies

Hi Martin, not had a chance this year mate due to work commitments. Not been a very good spring/summer for me as I've been super busy. I lost a juv male sauv earlier in the year. I'm putting 2013 as a loss. Be back @ Hamm in Dec if your going mate?


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## earthtiger

Terrarium Supplies said:


> not had a chance this year mate due to work commitments. Not been a very good spring/summer for me as I've been super busy. I lost a juv male sauv earlier in the year. I'm putting 2013 as a loss.


that is really a pitty!




Terrarium Supplies said:


> Be back @ Hamm in Dec if your going mate?


yes, I will be in Hamm again. ...I have to go there to get rid of some of those: >>click here<< =;-)

kind regards,
Martin


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## Terrarium Supplies

earthtiger said:


> yes, I will be in Hamm again. ...I have to go there to get rid of some of those: >>click here<< =;-)


haha! Keep me in the loop Martin as I'm looking for some more. Also need more lemurs if you see any around.


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## Arcadiajohn

hi Mate,

i know that Dave and Jim have some Lemurs at The Grange reptiles in Botley.

I just hope that they get sold to a decent breeder that will make the most of them! they SO shouldnt be "pets"! subjects for C.B is more than fine however.

john




Terrarium Supplies said:


> haha! Keep me in the loop Martin as I'm looking for some more. Also need more lemurs if you see any around.


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## Terrarium Supplies

Arcadiajohn said:


> hi Mate,
> 
> i know that Dave and Jim have some Lemurs at The Grange reptiles in Botley.
> 
> I just hope that they get sold to a decent breeder that will make the most of them! they SO shouldnt be "pets"! subjects for C.B is more than fine however.
> 
> john


Cheers Jon, I'll go and scope them out. Just need to make sure they are the correct locals.


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## earthtiger

Sorry for hijacking this thread again!

Beginning of May I finally removed my P. sauvagii from their "wintering grounds" in the cellar and started to feed them heavily. They are showing a tremendous appetite right now and eat me out of house and home - and themselves round bellies.











kind regards,
Martin


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## earthtiger

Hi,

does anybody know how long the development of the tadpoles takes till they will eave the water? 6 weeks, 7 weeks, 8 weeks, 9 weeks...?

kind regards,
Martin


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