# Call for ban on shows - again



## Chris Newman

*Scientists call for a ban on exotic pet markets across the EU to protect animal welfare, public health and biodiversity*
2 May, 2012 11:05 CET 

*A new independent scientific report, released today, has resulted in calls for an EU-wide ban on exotic pet markets to protect animal welfare, public health and biodiversity. The report, commissioned by the Animal Protection Agency, International Animal Rescue, Eurogroup for Animals and other European animal protection groups, was this week presented to Caroline Lucas MP and Keith Taylor MEP. *

Scientists investigated amphibian and reptile markets across Europe and carried out onsite inspections of key events in the UK, Germany and Spain. In the UK, scientists visited the Doncaster Dome on 18 September 2011. Stress-related behaviours were commonly observed in the animals and the report described the conditions and treatment of the vast majority of amphibians and reptiles as ‘tantamount to animal abuse’. It was noted that veterinarians charged with inspecting the animals had failed to identify systematic welfare problems. 

The report also highlighted the health risks to attendees. Reptiles and amphibians typically carry germs that contaminate their general environment and, within a short period of time, probably spread to humans with a potential of causing infections. Also, of concern was the risk involved in subsequently hiring out venues contaminated by reptile and amphibian events for a variety other purposes, including activities involving children.

Says Caroline Lucas MP:
_“Since selling pets in the street and markets was banned in 1983, so much has been done by local councils, animal welfare groups and the courts to almost eradicate the practice. Yet animal sellers have tried numerous tactics in their attempts to continue their trade, and a handful of councils have yet to recognise and take action to stop commercial animal trading disguised as an innocent hobby. This is why urgent action is needed now.”_

Says Keith Taylor MEP:
“_Selling wild animals in bad conditions on market stalls is both inhumane and unnecessary. It is bad for the animals, who frequently show signs of stress, and also bad for human health. Non-native species are becoming a major environmental concern and exotic pet markets can only add to this problem. It is crucial that the European Commission takes action to tackle this issue_.”
Another important finding of the study was that these markets provide a key route for exotic amphibians and reptiles (captive-bred, as well as wild-caught) to spread throughout the EU and impact on local ecosystems - at great cost to EU economies. The report will be presented to the European Commission, which is currently considering measures to address Invasive Alien Species.
The report is available to download from www.apa.org.uk and www.internationalanimalrescue.org (also attached)
· For further information or images, please contact Elaine Toland on 01273 674253 or out of hours on 07986 535024.

Notes to Editors:
· In the UK, the sale of pet animals at markets was outlawed in a 1983 amendment to the Pet Animals Act 1951, which states that:
_“If any person carries on a business of selling animals as pets in any part of a street or public place, or at a stall or barrow in a market, he shall be guilty of an offence.”_
Many pet traders who operate at markets claim that their business is legitimate because they describe themselves as ‘hobbyists’. However, selling animals on a repeated basis constitutes carrying on a business by way of ‘degree of repetition’, in law. According to the report authors, “_most sellers were commercial traders whether or not their activities were declared or formalised_.”
· The following reptile and amphibian markets are planned to take place this year:
Castle Green Sports Centre, Gale St, Dagenham, *Essex* RM9 4UN (12 May 2012)
Doncaster Dome, Big Hall, Doncaster Lakeside, Bawtry Rd, Doncaster, *South Yorkshire* DN4 7PD (17 June and 23 September 2012)
St Walstan Hall at the Norfolk Showground, Dereham Road, Costessey, Norwich, *Norfolk* NR5 0TT (8 July 2012)
Wyre Forest Glades Leisure Centre, Bromsgrove Street, Kidderminster, *Worcs *DY10 1PP (29 July and 25 November 2012)
Kempton Park Racecourse, Staines Rd East, Sunbury on Thames, *Surrey*TW16 5AQ (19 August 2012)
Riverside Ice and Leisure Centre, Victoria Rd, Chelmsford, *Essex* CM1 1FG (30 September 2012)
Havant Leisure Centre, Civic Centre Rd, Havant, Portsmouth, *Hants* PO9 2AY (no date announced yet)
· The report ‘_Amphibian and Reptile Pet Markets in the EU: An Investigation and Assessment_’ was sponsored by: The Animal Protection Agency (UK), Animal Public (Germany), Eurogroup for Animals (Belgium), Eurogroup for Wildlife and Laboratory Animals (Belgium), Fundacion para la Adopcion, el Apadrinamiento y la Defensa de los Animales (Spain), International Animal Rescue (UK) and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Germany).
· Details of report authors are as follows:
Phillip C Arena _BSc (Hons) PhD (Reptile and Amphibian Anatomy and Physiology)_
Catrina Steedman _BSc (Hons) (Psychology) AMSB (Reptile Biology)_
Clifford Warwick _DipMedSci (Medicine, Zoonoses) CBiol (Reptile Biology) FSB (Reptile Biology)_


----------



## penfold

cant they just give up and shrivel away got an idea chris v cliffard pair boxing gloves 12 rounds loser gives up crawls away get training chris :2thumb:


----------



## Chris Newman

penfold said:


> cant they just give up and shrivel away got an idea chris v cliffard pair boxing gloves 12 rounds loser gives up crawls away get training chris :2thumb:


I have just done a brief interview with young Clifford on BBC Radio 4 You and Yours – he called me an “uneducated pet peddler”….. He really is a complete and utter buffoon of the first order, the tragedy is he genuinely believes he is a scientist, how sad is that!!!!!!


----------



## Graham

This bit is interesting...


> Stress-related behaviours were commonly observed in the animals and the report described the conditions and treatment of the vast majority of amphibians and reptiles as ‘tantamount to animal abuse’. *It was noted that veterinarians charged with inspecting the animals had failed to identify systematic welfare problems. *


Where does the report come from Chris?


----------



## Chris Newman

Graham said:


> This bit is interesting...
> 
> Where does the report come from Chris?


Here is a link to the full report:
http://mb.cision.com/Public/2025/9254219/9c7fea704ec376d8.pdf

It is farcical, absolutely farcical…. the best bit of the whole report is on page 33, and let me quote verbatim:

*DECLARATION OF INTEREST(S)*
*The authors declare no vested interests in the subject of this report beyond the commissioned work. *

This is without doubt the most amusing statement I have ever read, Clifford & Co. have been campaigned to end the keeping of reptiles in captivity and/or banning of shows for over two decades and they seriously try and claim not to have a vested interest, delusional is the only word that springs to mind, apsolutley delusional…..


----------



## Geomyda

Chris Newman said:


> I have just done a brief interview with young Clifford on BBC Radio 4 You and Yours – he called me an “uneducated pet peddler”….. He really is a complete and utter buffoon of the first order, the tragedy is he genuinely believes he is a scientist, how sad is that!!!!!!


interesting! 
Are other media picking up on this story?


----------



## Chris Newman

Geomyda said:


> interesting!
> Are other media picking up on this story?


We shall have to wait and see, I have little doubt Clifford and Elaine will be touting it about the place……. Looks like it will be an interesting year one way and another!


----------



## Geomyda

Chris Newman said:


> We shall have to wait and see, I have little doubt Clifford and Elaine will be touting it about the place……. Looks like it will be an interesting year one way and another!


having briefly read the report attached to the link you kindly put up on this thread. I have a couple of observations:
1. who are the Emergent Disease Foundation?
2. In the text they refer to "Semi scientific"...... what does this mean?
Obviously, this document has been timed to release with the media interest in the EU directive on Alien species. References to it, are manifest in this text.


----------



## Dubia82

People like 'Clifford' and 'Elaine' ware away at my faith in humanity and the education of this country... no real, honest scientist that I know of goes about things the way Clifford does.

'Reptiles and amphibians typically carry germs that contaminate their general environment and, within a short period of time, probably spread to humans with a potential of causing infections.'

I admit I have not yet read the full report, but if it contains unbelievably weak arguments/statements like the above then it's not worth the paper it's written on and should be laughed out of any scientific community. I want facts and figures... not 'typically' or 'probably'... if it's not definite it's unlikely to be significant... and conclusions without real varified and scrutinised results are just unsupported opinions. I'm not saying reptiles don't carry germs, but comparisons are need as everything is relative.

Is there no limit to the amount of crap people can submit?


----------



## Trixtabella

Chris Newman said:


> I have just done a brief interview with young Clifford on BBC Radio 4 You and Yours – he called me an “uneducated pet peddler”….. He really is a complete and utter buffoon of the first order, the tragedy is he genuinely believes he is a scientist, how sad is that!!!!!!


How rude, if you have an opinon you have the right to express it, even if he is wrong. However there is no need for name calling to get your point across is there.


----------



## Stu MBM

Baffoon is nice, I couldnt be in the same room as him without kicking him in the face, nevermind interviewing him. You showed great restraint. 

Baffoon, the guy is a dlck!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Chris Newman

For anyone interested in more background on Clifford Warwick “Medical Scientist” then this is worth a read:
http://pjboosinger.jigsy.com/entries/general/clifford-warwick-expert-or-b-bs-d

His only genuine qualification is DipMedSci, which is between an O level and A level qualification, this would elevate you to lab technician, not scientist.  High time this charlatan was exposed for what he really is, a fanatical animal rights activist….


----------



## Chris Newman

Stu MBM said:


> Baffoon is nice, I couldnt be in the same room as him without kicking him in the face, nevermind interviewing him. You showed great restraint.
> 
> Baffoon, the guy is a dlck!!!!!!!!!!!


I think buffoon suits him because that is precisely what he is! I have know him for over thirty years he use to be an importer/smuggler, he had some nice animals back in his day. It was just a shame that he never knew how to look after them and so many died in his care, probably why he turned to the other side!!

I meet him again for the first time in quite a few years at a Defra meeting back in 2003, he was equally impolite then shouting “I’m not talking to you” – did wonders for his political career [not]. He use to be skinny but is now a vegan body builder!!! 
http://www.myspace.com/cliffordwarwick/photos


----------



## hogboy

Chris Newman said:


> I think buffoon suits him because that is precisely what he is! I have know him for over thirty years he use to be an importer/smuggler, he had some nice animals back in his day. It was just a shame that he never knew how to look after them and so many died in his care, probably why he turned to the other side!!
> 
> I meet him again for the first time in quite a few years at a Defra meeting back in 2003, he was equally impolite then shouting “I’m not talking to you” – did wonders for his political career [not]. He use to be skinny but is now a vegan body builder!!!
> http://www.myspace.com/cliffordwarwick/photos


Interesting read Chris -)
How does he still get away with it ?


----------



## colinm

Apparently Keith Taylor is my M.E.P.

Note to myself,I must vote in the European elections to ensure people like this dont get re-elected.


----------



## Graham

> He use to be skinny but is now a vegan body builder!!!


He looks a real miserable bugger in those photos!


----------



## Trixtabella

Can I just say that I just wasted a while reading that 'report' and I use report in inverted comma's because there is hardly any actual proof to back up the comments which are being made ie 
'Intuitively, the longer the observation period the greater
are the probabilities of observing a range of behaviours.
Indeed, it would be expected that the level of stress
exhibited by species that were crepuscular or nocturnal
(such as many gecko lizards and amphibians) would rise
throughout the day of exhibition, particularly if they
were not presented with some form of temporary
respite from exposure in terms of shelter.'
Intuitively is not fact, if you are producing a report you have to have facts and evidence to back this up. That is just plain heresay. I could go on picking and pulling things out of this which don't make sense but I guess thats already been done. 
How annoying.


----------



## Geomyda

Chris Newman said:


> I think buffoon suits him because that is precisely what he is! I have know him for over thirty years he use to be an importer/smuggler, he had some nice animals back in his day. It was just a shame that he never knew how to look after them and so many died in his care, probably why he turned to the other side!!
> 
> I meet him again for the first time in quite a few years at a Defra meeting back in 2003, he was equally impolite then shouting “I’m not talking to you” – did wonders for his political career [not]. He use to be skinny but is now a vegan body builder!!!
> http://www.myspace.com/cliffordwarwick/photos


Interesting! I have heard stories in the past, about the background of Mr Warwick as a reptile dealer. Has anyone got copies of lists or accurate records of this activity?


----------



## Pete Q

Geomyda said:


> Interesting! I have heard stories in the past, about the background of Mr Warwick as a reptile dealer. Has anyone got copies of lists or accurate records of this activity?


My thoughts also.


----------



## ecoherp

*The indefatigable Mr Warwick*

Wow! All very interesting. I’ve just read the report and heard the radio interview – it’s a shame the piece is so short – I for one don’t mind having ‘healthy’ and open discussion. To be honest, issues that aren’t openly discussed lend themselves to being criticized. I do agree that name-calling is unnecessary – we should let facts speak for themselves. 

As for the boxing match idea. I see that you've checked out Mr Warwick’s Myspace page (see http://www.myspace.com/cliffordwarwick)
- the guy has a bit of a physique thing happening so Chris, you may need to up the training otherwise it might be more than just an ear bashing involved (the Rocky movies may come in handy for some training tips)!!!


Off to check some of these facts.

Eco


----------



## connor 1213

by the sounds of it the guy is a :censor::censor::censor:

and yes some records of his previous dealings with reptiles would be handy...


----------



## Austin Allegro

Isn't it time somebody/club organised a show in Brighton in a private premises right in the midst of the lair where these crackpots come from.

re the MP and MEP if the FBH were to organise or join with the other parties canvassing at their re-election I for one would be willing to do a couple of days down in Brighton to help move them out of office. 

Missy Matt Lucas doesn't seem the first rule of MP longevity i.e. try to avoid making enemies.


----------



## Chris Newman

ecoherp said:


> As for the boxing match idea. I see that you've checked out Mr Warwick’s Myspace page (see Google)
> - the guy has a bit of a physique thing happening so Chris, you may need to up the training otherwise it might be more than just an ear bashing involved (the Rocky movies may come in handy for some training tips)!!!
> Eco


I hold no fear, I’m a black belt 17th dan in origami :gasp:


----------



## Graham

> I’m a black belt 17th dan in origami


So you could just fold him up into something harmless!


----------



## Kiel

Dubia82 said:


> People like 'Clifford' and 'Elaine' ware away at my faith in humanity and the education of this country... no real, honest scientist that I know of goes about things the way Clifford does.
> 
> 'Reptiles and amphibians typically carry germs that contaminate their general environment and, within a short period of time, probably spread to humans with a potential of causing infections.'
> 
> I admit I have not yet read the full report, but if it contains unbelievably weak arguments/statements like the above then it's not worth the paper it's written on and should be laughed out of any scientific community. I want facts and figures... not 'typically' or 'probably'... if it's not definite it's unlikely to be significant... and conclusions without real varified and scrutinised results are just unsupported opinions. I'm not saying reptiles don't carry germs, but comparisons are need as everything is relative.
> 
> Is there no limit to the amount of crap people can submit?


I've yet to hear of mass D&V or illness following a reptile show, just saying.


----------



## Stu MBM

Am I missing something. What does this person hope to do? Why is he trying to ruin such an amazing hobby. 

The only way I can take this is a threat to my passion. I love my reptiles as much as I love my Children. I never get into arguments on here but this is one fight I will happily get involved in. 

Chris, anything I can do to put this prick down, please count me in.


----------



## henry415

These people are away with the fairies and won't stop until they end all pet ownership. That's their real agenda I reckon.:devil:


----------



## Graham

If you think the APA are mad you should check out some of the organizations affiliated to them, some of their agendas make the APA look positively sane.


----------



## hogboy

You held your ground well Chris, what a :censor:

Here's a link to the show
BBC iPlayer - You and Yours: 02/05/2012


----------



## Sid crock

Email the MP & MEP 7 put our side. Just be nice as they think we are nuts.Lets show them we're not.


----------



## Geomyda

hogboy said:


> You held your ground well Chris, what a :censor:
> 
> Here's a link to the show
> BBC iPlayer - You and Yours: 02/05/2012


thanks for posting!:2thumb:


----------



## Graham

I felt that the BBC rather prejudiced the whole discussion from the start by introducing Mr Warwick as a "scientist", without any mention of any qualifications he might hold to justify the title.

To my mind we should be doing all we can to publicly discredit these people, highlighting wherever possible their lack of credentials, their propensity for making unsubstantiated statements and consistently lying in their literature, and also making clear their links to some decidedly dodgy groups who's agendas the general public would almost certainly not support.


----------



## Chris Newman

Graham said:


> So you could just fold him up into something harmless!


That would be difficult for even such a proficient practitioner as myself - after all he is entirely innocuous!


----------



## HABU

laws and bans pile up... freedoms are under attack...

one day you won't be allowed to plant flowers without a permit of some kind...


----------



## Chris Newman

Graham said:


> I felt that the BBC rather prejudiced the whole discussion from the start by introducing Mr Warwick as a "scientist", without any mention of any qualifications he might hold to justify the title.
> 
> To my mind we should be doing all we can to publicly discredit these people, highlighting wherever possible their lack of credentials, their propensity for making unsubstantiated statements and consistently lying in their literature, and also making clear their links to some decidedly dodgy groups who's agendas the general public would almost certainly not support.


I haven’t listened to the piece but that is probably a little harsh on the BBC, Clifford goes around telling everyone he is a ‘scientist’ so they will accept that at face value, rarely will they look into the background of the person unless they have reason to believe they are being misled……. now there’s a though! 

I though the presenter did very well at slapping him down, in reality he made himself look rather foolish, something that he is a genuine expert at! The report is now in the public domain and in the hands of actual scientists, not pseudo-scientists like Mr Warwick, so let’s see what people with actual qualifications and actual letters after their name [not just ones you have to pay to use] have to say about it. 

Just to lighten the mood a little, has anyone actually looked at this document and scrutinised the list of species that might become invasive? It is so amusing that I am considering nominating Clifford for an awarded at the British Comedy Awards, it’s that hilarious.........


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

I can't even think of any words to describe that.


----------



## Austin Allegro

Graham said:


> I felt that the BBC rather prejudiced the whole discussion from the start by introducing Mr Warwick as a "scientist", without any mention of any qualifications he might hold to justify the title.
> 
> To my mind we should be doing all we can to publicly discredit these people, highlighting wherever possible their lack of credentials, their propensity for making unsubstantiated statements and consistently lying in their literature, and also making clear their links to some decidedly dodgy groups who's agendas the general public would almost certainly not support.


 Sounds like somebody should be compiling a database.


----------



## colinm

Is there a link anywhere Chris?


----------



## Graham

> I haven’t listened to the piece but that is probably a little harsh on the BBC


I don't think so Chris, is it that unreasonable to expect the BBC to check the credentials of people they invite to air their views on their programmes? If someone is claiming to be an expert on a subject should they not be asked to provide evidence of that?


----------



## henry415

Graham said:


> I don't think so Chris, is it that unreasonable to expect the BBC to check the credentials of people they invite to air their views on their programmes? If someone is claiming to be an expert on a subject should they not be asked to provide evidence of that?


I fully agree! The BBC are actually in league with the 'animal rights' bunch it seems in many ways. I think that secretly many of their 'top people' may be 'nutters'. They have been biased for as long as I can remember, but thats what they are, they try to sensationalise everything.
Do what I do and don't support them, don't buy a TV license. The BBC is a complete waste of money. If it wasn't for David Attenborough I don't think theres ever been much of interest on their two programmes. 

Check this place out: http://www.tvlicenceresistance.info/


Cancel your Direct Debit, and sod 'em!


----------



## Janine00

Graham said:


> I don't think so Chris, is it that unreasonable to expect the BBC to check the credentials of people they invite to air their views on their programmes? If someone is claiming to be an expert on a subject should they not be asked to provide evidence of that?


't 

Don't be daft man, that does not make for good TV :lol2: Just because they don't do adverts don't mean they don't do soaps!! Nor fiction....:whistling2:


----------



## HABU

experts are registered?


i'm an expert...


beer drinker...:mf_dribble:


----------



## Pete Q

hogboy said:


> You held your ground well Chris, what a :censor:
> 
> Here's a link to the show
> BBC iPlayer - You and Yours: 02/05/2012


 
Well done Chris, good job.
Shame you didn't get more time to pick him apart.


----------



## Geomyda

Trixtabella said:


> Can I just say that I just wasted a while reading that 'report' and I use report in inverted comma's because there is hardly any actual proof to back up the comments which are being made ie
> 'Intuitively, the longer the observation period the greater
> are the probabilities of observing a range of behaviours.
> Indeed, it would be expected that the level of stress
> exhibited by species that were crepuscular or nocturnal
> (such as many gecko lizards and amphibians) would rise
> throughout the day of exhibition, particularly if they
> were not presented with some form of temporary
> respite from exposure in terms of shelter.'
> Intuitively is not fact, if you are producing a report you have to have facts and evidence to back this up. That is just plain heresay. I could go on picking and pulling things out of this which don't make sense but I guess thats already been done.
> How annoying.


I too, having read the "Amphibian and Reptile pet market in the EU: investigation and assessment", am somewhat unsure of its credibility?
Maybe, the forum member "Ecoherp", :welcome: might like to input with some comments about its value?

for those whom may not be aware of the history of these debates and frequently misleading published articles:
A REPLY TO CLIFFORD WARWICK


----------



## Paul112

Just had a quick flick through, not impressed at all.

Found this on the APA website:


> Vulnerable groups such as children under five, the elderly, pregnant woman or people with compromised immune systems are more susceptible to contracting one of the many diseases carried by exotic animals.


It is a basic fact that these groups, which have reduced immune function, are more susceptible to disease. How they have used that to point the finger at exotic pets, I do not know. Last time I checked,_ Toxoplasma gondii_ was commonly regarded as being a major threat to immunocompromised individuals and pregnant women, *and is spread by the domestic cat.*

Best,
Paul


----------



## ecoherp

Geomyda said:


> I too, having read the "Amphibian and Reptile pet market in the EU: investigation and assessment", am somewhat unsure of its credibility?
> Maybe, the forum member "Ecoherp", :welcome: might like to input with some comments about its value?
> 
> for those whom may not be aware of the history of these debates and frequently misleading published articles:
> A REPLY TO CLIFFORD WARWICK


Yep...I'm checkin it out now (oh...thanks for the welcome :2thumb.

Hogboy, thanks for posting up the link to radio interview...can't wait to hear this!

As for origami Chris...isn't that a soup? 

I also agree with what a few folk have requested (as I did earlier) - it would be nice to get this evidence of him been a smuggler. I spent a bit of time looking around for the ‘smuggler’ stuff you mention and there’s nothing I can find so I gave up (for now that is!!) . It looks like there would have to be something actuelly illeagal as in proof of crime for… A friend used to be journo years ago and I might see about getting her to look stuff up for me. 

From Wiki “Wildlife smuggling or trafficking involves the illegal gathering, transportation and distribution or animals, and their derivatives. This can be done either internationally or domestically.”

Again, there’s nothing anywhere I can find saying he broke any laws about being a smuggler. Can you (Chris or anyone actualy) post the actual leagal /evidence you’ve got here please? Imagine his face!

Best

Ecoherp


----------



## Geomyda

ecoherp said:


> Yep...I'm checkin it out now (oh...thanks for the welcome :2thumb.
> 
> Hogboy, thanks for posting up the link to radio interview...can't wait to hear this!
> 
> As for origami Chris...isn't that a soup?
> 
> I also agree with what a few folk have requested (as I did earlier) - it would be nice to get this evidence of him been a smuggler. I spent a bit of time looking around for the ‘smuggler’ stuff you mention and there’s nothing I can find so I gave up (for now that is!!) . It looks like there would have to be something actuelly illeagal as in proof of crime for… A friend used to be journo years ago and I might see about getting her to look stuff up for me.
> 
> From Wiki “Wildlife smuggling or trafficking involves the illegal gathering, transportation and distribution or animals, and their derivatives. This can be done either internationally or domestically.”
> 
> Again, there’s nothing anywhere I can find saying he broke any laws about being a smuggler. Can you (Chris or anyone actualy) post the actual leagal /evidence you’ve got here please? Imagine his face!
> 
> Best
> 
> Ecoherp


Thank you for posting, I hope you soon have been able to sufficiently read the paper ; Amphibian and Reptile pet market in the EU... investigation and assessment, in order to give some guidance and or clarity to the content?
I would urge you and others to particularly concentrate on one of its main thrusts, potential threats from invasive species in the EU. The "intuitive invasion risk" dealt with in the graph seems to show a high risk of Crocodilians invasion?
This is despite the evidence from the sample study of only one species of Crocodilians, The spectacled Caiman ( Caiman crocodylus ) being seen at one of the reptile events!
The thought of European Rivers being invaded by this particular species in my opinion seen rather insane.......... Sorry, perhaps I should have said; "dans la Seine"????
The use of language such as "Semi scientific", intuitive in a document that seems to purport scientific credibility is frankly rather incredulous. :whistling2:


----------



## Chris Newman

ecoherp said:


> Yep...I'm checkin it out now (oh...thanks for the welcome :2thumb.
> 
> Hogboy, thanks for posting up the link to radio interview...can't wait to hear this!
> 
> As for origami Chris...isn't that a soup?
> 
> I also agree with what a few folk have requested (as I did earlier) - it would be nice to get this evidence of him been a smuggler. I spent a bit of time looking around for the ‘smuggler’ stuff you mention and there’s nothing I can find so I gave up (for now that is!!) . It looks like there would have to be something actuelly illeagal as in proof of crime for… A friend used to be journo years ago and I might see about getting her to look stuff up for me.
> 
> From Wiki “Wildlife smuggling or trafficking involves the illegal gathering, transportation and distribution or animals, and their derivatives. This can be done either internationally or domestically.”
> 
> Again, there’s nothing anywhere I can find saying he broke any laws about being a smuggler. Can you (Chris or anyone actualy) post the actual leagal /evidence you’ve got here please? Imagine his face!
> 
> Best
> 
> Ecoherp


Interesting question - Clifford was certainly involved in importer reptiles and amphibians; I know I brought some from him. In his abundant writings over the years the inference he has made is that reptile dealers are smugglers/crooks, now how he comes to that conclusion I truly don’t know perhaps he has some insight that may not be so obviously to others who have not been in the trade? I assume, however, that as Clifford is such an upstanding pillar of the community that all his imports were of course completely legal and above board. Certainly I would hope so as I would not have knowingly purchased any illegal animals, but then as an “uneducated pet peddler” what would I know anyway!!! 

Notwithstanding his formative career what is far more interesting and important is his current career as a ‘scientist’ that is so impressive. In this report it states he qualified in biology in the 1990’s, try as hard as I can I am unable to find any information on any academic qualifications he was awarded at this time, nothing, zip. If you find anything in your endeavours perhaps you could let me know, I know he held memberships to various institutions but as you know they are not qualifications and qualifications are so important these days!


----------



## Chris Newman

Geomyda said:


> Thank you for posting, I hope you soon have been able to sufficiently read the paper ; Amphibian and Reptile pet market in the EU... investigation and assessment, in order to give some guidance and or clarity to the content?
> I would urge you and others to particularly concentrate on one of its main thrusts, potential threats from invasive species in the EU. The "intuitive invasion risk" dealt with in the graph seems to show a high risk of Crocodilians invasion?
> This is despite the evidence from the sample study of only one species of Crocodilians, The spectacled Caiman ( Caiman crocodylus ) being seen at one of the reptile events!
> The thought of European Rivers being invaded by this particular species in my opinion seen rather insane.......... Sorry, perhaps I should have said; "dans la Seine"????
> The use of language such as "Semi scientific", intuitive in a document that seems to purport scientific credibility is frankly rather incredulous. :whistling2:


Paul you quite right this morning over coffee and a bacon butty, I am going over the report again, currently I’m on Appendix 4 [invasive potential risk] which starts on 47. Considering this has been put together by such ‘eminent scientists’ as Clifford I am now horrified at how irresponsible us keepers [not to mention uneducated pet peddlers] have been. According to this document Doncaster is at high risk of being overrun by marauding Burmese pythons, they would of course devastate the eco system just as they are doing in the Everglades! This is slightly tempered by the though of invasive golden mantellas and gold dust day geckos brightening the place up a bit. Although I must concede that I am more concerned at the ‘extreme’ risk posed by Kleinmann's tortoise, they are vicious brutes, they really could be an unbridled threat to the biodiversity of Doncaster!


----------



## Kiel

How many of the species we're apparently under threat from can even survive our climate? 

I'd love to be walking down the road, when suddenly Burms! Millions of them!


----------



## Graham

> The BBC are actually in league with the 'animal rights' bunch it seems in many ways.


Well I wouldn't go that far, but simply accepting an interviewee's qualifications at face value cannot be right, not when they're using those supposed qualifications to establish their credibility.

As for refusing to pay the license fee, that's another matter altogether and entirely up to the individual, however it's possibly not a great idea to crow about the fact that you refuse to pay in a discussion such as this where _we_ are trying to establish our own credibility!


----------



## Geomyda

Chris Newman said:


> Paul you quite right this morning over coffee and a bacon butty, I am going over the report again, currently I’m on Appendix 4 [invasive potential risk] which starts on 47. Considering this has been put together by such ‘eminent scientists’ as Clifford I am now horrified at how irresponsible us keepers [not to mention uneducated pet peddlers] have been. According to this document Doncaster is at high risk of being overrun by marauding Burmese pythons, they would of course devastate the eco system just as they are doing in the Everglades! This is slightly tempered by the though of invasive golden mantellas and gold dust day geckos brightening the place up a bit. Although I must concede that I am more concerned at the ‘extreme’ risk posed by Kleinmann's tortoise, they are vicious brutes, they really could be an unbridled threat to the biodiversity of Doncaster!


Chris,
the lead author in this paper seems to be Dr P C Areana, from the Murdoch University in Western Australia.
Of course, it maybe that the authors have ascribed the credit, alphabetically?
However, I have not heard of Dr P C Areana before, are you aware of other works published by him, and furthermore what is his position at the Murdoch University?


----------



## Chris Newman

Kiel said:


> How many of the species we're apparently under threat from can even survive our climate?
> 
> I'd love to be walking down the road, when suddenly Burms! Millions of them!


Here is a direct link to the report itself: http://mb.cision.com/Public/2025/9254219/9c7fea704ec376d8.pdf take a look!


----------



## Chris Newman

Geomyda said:


> Chris,
> the lead author in this paper seems to be Dr P C Areana, from the Murdoch University in Western Australia.
> Of course, it maybe that the authors have ascribed the credit, alphabetically?
> However, I have not heard of Dr P C Areana before, are you aware of other works published by him, and furthermore what is his position at the Murdoch University?


I am aware of the name and indeed he has published with Warwick previously. Curiously I have not come across anyone that knows of him or the work he done outside of that with Warwick. A cursory scan of the university website seems hold no reference to him, I will follow this up with various contacts I have in Australia. Perhaps Ecoherp can help us out!!


----------



## callum b

It seems that P C Arena has published work in Aus without Warwick.

I'm not sure if the links will allow other people to view the paper as I found it through WoK at uni.

An immunohistochemical study of endocrine cells of the alimentary tract of the King's skink (Egernia kingii) P C Arena, K C Richardson, and J Yamada 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.eresources.shef.ac.uk/pmc/articles/PMC1257064/

There is also this although, I can't access it ANESTHESIA IN 2 SPECIES OF LARGE AUSTRALIAN SKINK: Veterinary record [0042-4900] ARENA, PC yr:1988 vol:123 iss:6 pg:155 -158 

Both papers are over 20 years old though.


----------



## callum b

Oh and also something more recent although again the system can't find a copy of it. 

The reproduction and diet of Egernia kingii (Reptilia : Scincidae) on Penguin Island, Western Australia Source:Australian journal of zoology [0004-959X] Arena, PC yr:2003 vol:51 iss:5 pg:495 -504

Edit: found a link to the abstract via googling http://www.mendeley.com/research/re...scincidae-penguin-island-western-australia-3/


----------



## Chris Newman

callum b said:


> Oh and also something more recent although again the system can't find a copy of it.
> 
> The reproduction and diet of Egernia kingii (Reptilia : Scincidae) on Penguin Island, Western Australia Source:Australian journal of zoology [0004-959X] Arena, PC yr:2003 vol:51 iss:5 pg:495 -504
> 
> Edit: found a link to the abstract via googling The reproduction and diet of Egernia kingii (Reptilia : Scincidae) on Penguin Island, Western Australia | Mendeley


Thank you for that most interesting and helpful, if you find any more references I would be most interested as in my brief excisions I hadn’t seen anything published by him – know your enemy and all that! I have chapter and verse on Warwick and Steedman but Arena was something of an enigma.


----------



## Geomyda

callum b said:


> Oh and also something more recent although again the system can't find a copy of it.
> 
> The reproduction and diet of Egernia kingii (Reptilia : Scincidae) on Penguin Island, Western Australia Source:Australian journal of zoology [0004-959X] Arena, PC yr:2003 vol:51 iss:5 pg:495 -504
> 
> Edit: found a link to the abstract via googling The reproduction and diet of Egernia kingii (Reptilia : Scincidae) on Penguin Island, Western Australia | Mendeley


Thanks for this link,I have now found three other papers published which I look forward to reading.: victory:


----------



## ecoherp

Geomyda said:


> Thanks for this link,I have now found three other papers published which I look forward to reading.: victory:


I also found refrence to a PhD manuscript from 1991. Aspects of the form and function of the alimentary tract of two species of large Australian skink in the National Library of Australia's online catalog, but I can't access it.

Eco


----------



## Geomyda

ecoherp said:


> I also found refrence to a PhD manuscript from 1991. Aspects of the form and function of the alimentary tract of two species of large Australian skink in the National Library of Australia's online catalog, but I can't access it.
> 
> Eco


His early work seems to have credibility, which is all the more surprising that he has allowed his name to be used in this latest rather poorly structured piece.
Perhaps, you can address some of the earlier observations made such as:
1.what does semi scientific mean?
2. "intuitive invasion risk". This is a novel term which seems to suggest that species in the data set; Appendix 4 have varying levels of perceived risk of invasion.
Perhaps, you can comment on this premise?

.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

More worrying reports in the Sunday Mercury appeared yesterday. I wish i had a way with words as id like to send them an email!!!
Warning over exotic pet sales and killer diseases in the Midlands - Sunday Mercury


----------



## Geomyda

animalstory said:


> More worrying reports in the Sunday Mercury appeared yesterday. I wish i had a way with words as id like to send them an email!!!
> Warning over exotic pet sales and killer diseases in the Midlands - Sunday Mercury



just send them the recently published Advertising standards agency ruling about the LUSH ad campaign!
Whilst, it is not possible to say that ther is no such thing as Zoonoses, the practice of modern reptile husbandry, which includes the use of products such as F10, and other cleaning agents which are frequently used as cage hygiene, makes the transmission of disease highly unlikely.
It seems, that the media are happy to publish stories based on the recent "learned" reports from the APA. 
In this particular story, perhaps the word "Boffin" might be more correctly be replaced with the word BOBBIN? In M/S Elaine Toland's case in my opinion, it refers to one whom seems to have her threads very tightly knotted and confused.:whistling2:


----------



## colinm

Having looked through the report perhaps someone allied to the report on here can answer me the following questions:

There are numerous ticks to the invasive species,this is somewhat misleading as most of those species are invasive in tropical or subtropical countries.What of these species are known to be invasive in Europe?

The categories for invasion risk and intuitive risk seem very subjective rather than objective.How do you categorise these risks?

I keep Dendrobates auratus,Mantella aurantica and Phelsuma laticauda,all of which need very specialised captive conditions to maintain them correctly.The Intuative Risk and Invasion Risk for P.laticauda is high,how is this estimated?


----------



## RMDHopps

Trixtabella said:


> How rude, if you have an opinon you have the right to express it, even if he is wrong. However there is no need for name calling to get your point across is there.


He did call him a pet peddler...


----------



## RMDHopps

This whole thing begs the question; how many children have become ill/how many people have become ill as a result of a reptile show, in statistics compared with say, petting zoos in which children feed animals from the same palms they eat their sandwiches with? 

Hell, why don't we ban children picking up their dogs poo, or using public toilets for that matter...

I'm sure there is semi-scientific evidence to support the claim that dogs become stressed when left alone for prolonged periods of time while their owners are at work, should we ban dogs for single working people?

This is about as conclusive as saying that diet coke gives you skin cancer- the key phrase missing is 'has the potential to (but is highly unlikely that it wont)' 

I can understand the captive bred side of things on account of the risk of importing disease, but that's about all the grounds they have.

Where are the sources?


----------



## Geomyda

RMDHopps said:


> This whole thing begs the question; how many children have become ill/how many people have become ill as a result of a reptile show, in statistics compared with say, petting zoos in which children feed animals from the same palms they eat their sandwiches with?
> 
> Hell, why don't we ban children picking up their dogs poo, or using public toilets for that matter...
> 
> I'm sure there is semi-scientific evidence to support the claim that dogs become stressed when left alone for prolonged periods of time while their owners are at work, should we ban dogs for single working people?
> 
> This is about as conclusive as saying that diet coke gives you skin cancer- the key phrase missing is 'has the potential to (but is highly unlikely that it wont)'
> 
> I can understand the captive bred side of things on account of the risk of importing disease, but that's about all the grounds they have.
> 
> Where are the sources?


Media attention, currently seems to favour sound bites and quotes from the recently published reports in these "Semi scientific" documents which espouse such gems as "Intuitive invasion risk". 
To me, the importance of countering this negative media impact is to expose the nonsense in the content of these reports.
Colinm, earlier asked some very important questions of Ecoherp, in this regard. Let us hope that he has the courtesy of giving a reply?


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

Sadly I'm not very good with words, maybe some of you could forward for information on to the reporter and see if he will publish some of the information he's given from our side?


----------



## em_40

Is it illegal to sell animals at markets? I know there used to be farmers markets that sold sheep, cows, livestock as well as other pets such as rabbits and hamsters etc. Not been to any of them in a long time is that because they are now illegal? How do farmers sell livestock?


----------



## Tarron

Its illegal to sell pets on market stalls in the street or a public place. I think, but dont know, that farmers markets come under a different umbrella for obvious reasons.

Its not illegal, however, to sell reptiles and Breeders meetings and shows.


----------



## badger13

Should public toilets be banned If you go to a loo in any supermarket or even hospital the number of people who do not wash their hands after using them is amazing. I am sure that many diseases are spread in this way. Its not reptiles or loos that are the problem but humans who do not believe in personal hygiene. Educate not ban


----------



## mstypical

Tarron said:


> Its illegal to sell pets on market stalls in the street or a public place. I think, but dont know, that farmers markets come under a different umbrella for obvious reasons.
> 
> Its not illegal, however, to sell reptiles and Breeders meetings and shows.


Farmers markets trade cattle, not pets, that's the difference. You cannot sell animals in a public place as a 'business', that includes markets and streets, but hobbyists can sell animals as pets privately, or at events such as breeders meetings. They can also sell on animals that they had bought to keep as a pet, but no longer want/like. Once you have the intention of making profit, not keeping pets, that's when you need a pet shop licence : victory:


----------



## mstypical

ecoherp said:


> Yep...I'm checkin it out now (oh...thanks for the welcome :2thumb.
> 
> Hogboy, thanks for posting up the link to radio interview...can't wait to hear this!
> 
> As for origami Chris...isn't that a soup?
> 
> I also agree with what a few folk have requested (as I did earlier) - it would be nice to get this evidence of him been a smuggler. I spent a bit of time looking around for the ‘smuggler’ stuff you mention and there’s nothing I can find so I gave up (for now that is!!) . It looks like there would have to be something actuelly illeagal as in proof of crime for… A friend used to be journo years ago and I might see about getting her to look stuff up for me.
> 
> From Wiki “Wildlife smuggling or trafficking involves the illegal gathering, transportation and distribution or animals, and their derivatives. This can be done either internationally or domestically.”
> 
> *Again, there’s nothing anywhere I can find saying he broke any laws about being a smuggler. Can you (Chris or anyone actualy) post the actual leagal /evidence you’ve got here please?* Imagine his face!
> 
> Best
> 
> Ecoherp


I do apologise if i'm wrong, but you sound a LOT like an APA mole :hmm:


----------



## Tarron

mstypical said:


> I do apologise if i'm wrong, but you sound a LOT like an APA mole :hmm:


:notworthy:


----------



## ecoherp

Geomyda said:


> His early work seems to have credibility, which is all the more surprising that he has allowed his name to be used in this latest rather poorly structured piece.
> Perhaps, you can address some of the earlier observations made such as:
> 1.what does semi scientific mean?
> 2. "intuitive invasion risk". This is a novel term which seems to suggest that species in the data set; Appendix 4 have varying levels of perceived risk of invasion.
> Perhaps, you can comment on this premise?
> 
> .


Have sent a 'professional' query to the chap (well, the address I could find). Will see what he said.

Eco


----------



## ecoherp

mstypical said:


> I do apologise if i'm wrong, but you sound a LOT like an APA mole :hmm:


Your either complementing me, cause moles are cute furry things or insulting me!!Goodness!

:blush:


----------



## mstypical

ecoherp said:


> Your either complementing me, cause moles are cute furry things or insulting me!!Goodness!
> 
> :blush:


You know what I mean, and I stand by it, I think you are APA.


----------



## bbav

mstypical said:


> You know what I mean, and I stand by it, I think you are APA.


Have to say i agree you do seem a bit dodgy.


----------



## Elmodfz

Chris Newman said:


> For anyone interested in more background on Clifford Warwick “Medical Scientist” then this is worth a read:
> http://pjboosinger.jigsy.com/entries/general/clifford-warwick-expert-or-b-bs-d
> 
> His only genuine qualification is DipMedSci, which is between an O level and A level qualification, this would elevate you to lab technician, not scientist.  High time this charlatan was exposed for what he really is, a fanatical animal rights activist….


Speaking of this, I have been reading a lot of this APA vs Reptile keepers lately, and I'm not ashamed to say I had no idea these people even existed because I haven't actually been on these forums for a fair amount of time. But I work for Penfold and he likes to fill me in on the latest reptile news so it got me thinking, I have 1 more dissertation to write for my degree, conveniently in Animal Science, so I am going to find out if I would be allowed to do some kind of expose on the APA for it. Or something along the lines of, "Threats to the UK Reptile Hobby", I haven't given the title much thought as I need to get the go ahead first.

So all I can say is watch this space, because who knows what could be published by next summer


----------



## badger13

I know people may think this is irrelevant but how many children have died in the last decade after coming into contact with a motor vehicle should we therefore ban cars and or drivers


----------



## DaveWillisBHS

Just posted the following on the APA Facebook page, and I mean what I've said;

As someone heavily committed to herpetological conservation and, I confess, a reptile keeper I do not support any threats or abuse to anyone from anyone. This just makes a sensible debate more difficult. There are real concerns regarding the illegal trade and exploitation of these species which often compounds other sources of pressure, such as habitat loss and climate change. It is a real shame that there is such conflict between two groups who both care about herps. Whilst most keepers would strongly disagree with a statement such as - "Exotic pets are wild animals imprisoned in small cages for novelty entertainment" from your website, they would stand in strong support of condemnation of the infamous Rattlesnake roundups or the live skinning of snakes etc. for their skins. Speaking personally, I am happy to discuss productive ways forward with anyone who wishes to message me."

I hope it sounds reasonable to everyone. I shall see if anyone wishes to contact me.


----------



## Mynki

DaveWillisBHS said:


> Just posted the following on the APA Facebook page, and I mean what I've said;
> 
> As someone heavily committed to herpetological conservation and, I confess, a reptile keeper I do not support any threats or abuse to anyone from anyone. This just makes a sensible debate more difficult. There are real concerns regarding the illegal trade and exploitation of these species which often compounds other sources of pressure, such as habitat loss and climate change. It is a real shame that there is such conflict between two groups who both care about herps. Whilst most keepers would strongly disagree with a statement such as - "Exotic pets are wild animals imprisoned in small cages for novelty entertainment" from your website, they would stand in strong support of condemnation of the infamous Rattlesnake roundups or the live skinning of snakes etc. for their skins. Speaking personally, I am happy to discuss productive ways forward with anyone who wishes to message me."
> 
> I hope it sounds reasonable to everyone. I shall see if anyone wishes to contact me.


I'm afraid you are wasting your time. Your comment will be removed within hours and your facebook account blocked from posting on there again. APA will not engage in any sensible of logical discussion with anyone as you will soon see.


----------



## bbav

Yep :devil:
But if you are on twitter they can't delete comments


----------



## DaveWillisBHS

And it has been removed and I am unable to post . . .


----------



## Dubia82

DaveWillisBHS said:


> And it has been removed and I am unable to post . . .


That's just rediculous. That's about all I can say without swearing or putting myself in a bad mood for the rest of the day.


----------



## bbav

I think what is needed is a well laid out website (not facebook) to give evidence to prove that the APA are lying.
I.e scientific proof that reptiles pose no greater health risk than most other animals,numbers of wild caught versus captive bred reptiles kept,the truth about what actually happens at shows ect.
This can then be shared with the APA's support plus it can give councils and venue owners the evidence they need to show the truth rather than the APA's lies.


----------



## MaddMe

Unfortunately the APA is so blinkered that they are not interested in hearing anything other than there own opinions... They have removed comments from their facebook page that have been well written, polite and balanced... I have even noticed posts that have merely been given a like by members of the reptile society...

They just seem hell bent on destroying an enjoyable and social hobby, purely due to their narrow mindedness and a very small minority of keepers who fail to basic duty of care...


----------



## Graham

Stupid really, they're making enemies of many of the people who most closely support their aims, and who actually understand the very animals they're supposedly trying to save. I've never met a reptile keeper yet who wasn't interested in the protection and survival of the species they keep, many of course are actively involved in conservation work and fundraising efforts for wildlife organisations.

They clearly don't understand the saying "Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face".


----------



## Captainmatt29

You know this reminds me of 2009 when The APA tried to get Doncaster closed down and spouted so much crap they were haemorrhaging the brown stuff is this Elaine women the same one that was affiliated with them she got right on my nerves !

Also i've sene a few snakes in the grass lately over similar circumstances, they lose their credibility and deface the hobby by being two faced to increase it again.


----------



## bbav

MaddMe said:


> Unfortunately the APA is so blinkered that they are not interested in hearing anything other than there own opinions... They have removed comments from their facebook page that have been well written, polite and balanced... I have even noticed posts that have merely been given a like by members of the reptile society...
> 
> They just seem hell bent on destroying an enjoyable and social hobby, purely due to their narrow mindedness and a very small minority of keepers who fail to basic duty of care...


I'm not saying try to change the APA's mind I'm saying try to get though to their supporters to stop giving them money.
I know of 3 people that after seeing my animals and talking to them for a few minutes have canceled their monthly donations to the RSPCA.

Now if we can do the same thing with the sheeple that donate to the APA or whatever other AR group they give money to,On a much larger scale we can make a dent in their supporter numbers and their bank accounts.


----------



## MaddMe

In theory, if even 15% of reptile keepers got together and made enough noise about keeping them in suitable enclosures then we may get heard... The first step for many is to join a suitable body so our voices become heard... 

The other thing as reptile owners we must not do is to give the APA and the like any abuse, regardless of what they throw out... They are very one sided how they work, in so much as they can "lie, cheat and steal", yet we so much as fart in their direction they are all over us for abusing them....

Remember in the case of the APA they not only work by twisting the rules to make them appear as though they are doing good, but, also by exaggerating the facts... They see animals in a small rub being sold, then that is how they are being kept, they never go into a suitable enclosure...

For a number of weeks, I have seen a link for an e-petition buzzing around facebook for an attempt to get our voice heard in parliament... In 1 month I have only seen an additional 200 people sign up to it...


Code:


http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/15804

 the way I see it, if you value your hobby, then 1 minute to sign it is negligible...


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

MaddMe said:


> In theory, if even 15% of reptile keepers got together and made enough noise about keeping them in suitable enclosures then we may get heard... The first step for many is to join a suitable body so our voices become heard...
> 
> The other thing as reptile owners we must not do is to give the APA and the like any abuse, regardless of what they throw out... They are very one sided how they work, in so much as they can "lie, cheat and steal", yet we so much as fart in their direction they are all over us for abusing them....
> 
> Remember in the case of the APA they not only work by twisting the rules to make them appear as though they are doing good, but, also by exaggerating the facts... They see animals in a small rub being sold, then that is how they are being kept, they never go into a suitable enclosure...
> 
> For a number of weeks, I have seen a link for an e-petition buzzing around facebook for an attempt to get our voice heard in parliament... In 1 month I have only seen an additional 200 people sign up to it...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/15804
> 
> the way I see it, if you value your hobby, then 1 minute to sign it is negligible...


Many people are worried about putting their name to anything. Anyone can make on of these things and it could be a list being compiled for an anti.


----------



## MaddMe

Unfortunately, the only solution would be for someone else to create another petition... except by saying that this one could have been created by and anti, so could any other....


----------



## Captainmatt29

bbav said:


> I think what is needed is a well laid out website (not facebook) to give evidence to prove that the APA are lying.
> I.e scientific proof that reptiles pose no greater health risk than most other animals,numbers of wild caught versus captive bred reptiles kept,the truth about what actually happens at shows ect.
> This can then be shared with the APA's support plus it can give councils and venue owners the evidence they need to show the truth rather than the APA's lies.


I will 100% free of charge provide the hosting for this as I run a hosting business if someone wants to do it and will also provide the domain for free as I'm 100% behind this idea and it's purpose so if anyone would like to take on this take feel free to PM me and we can get to work, I'll even work on some of it in my spare time.


----------



## exopet

messengermatt said:


> I will 100% free of charge provide the hosting for this as I run a hosting business if someone wants to do it and will also provide the domain for free as I'm 100% behind this idea and it's purpose so if anyone would like to take on this take feel free to PM me and we can get to work, I'll even work on some of it in my spare time.



I can't give my full attention to this, but I'm happy to get involved


----------



## Captainmatt29

I've also just listened to the broadcast and think Chris handled it very well not to mention the other bloke did shoot himself in the foot with his comments - the letter may have been recognition of his claims but I'm sure it didn't account for the fact it was probably only the apa claims therefore they just humoured them because they hear the same tripe year in year out ?


----------



## exopet

exopet said:


> I can't give my full attention to this, but I'm happy to get involved



i reconsidered..... I'm willing to give it 100%


----------



## Captainmatt29

exopet said:


> I can't give my full attention to this, but I'm happy to get involved


If someone is willing to take on the task I'm sure as a community we can really do the site justice - I have many seo tools at my disposal too to ensure we get a decent ranking across the likes if google etc.

I've got the hardware which is the foundation to make this something more so as I said if anyone is interested even as a collaborative project PM me ;-)


----------



## exopet

messengermatt said:


> If someone is willing to take on the task I'm sure as a community we can really do the site justice - I have many seo tools at my disposal too to ensure we get a decent ranking across the likes if google etc.
> 
> I've got the hardware which is the foundation to make this something more so as I said if anyone is interested even as a collaborative project PM me ;-)


while i can't commit to helping on a website I am willing to be 'spokesperson' and help with any research required, I have already began contacting people who would be able to provide help in one form or another


----------

