# I have been wondering ...



## AraCyanea (May 30, 2011)

I have been wondering, being new to looking into DWA things. Is it possible to buy Anti-Venom in the UK for any venomous snakes you have? I don't own any as of yet, I plan to get eyelash viper in a year or two though, so just wodnering really.


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## Kuja (Dec 14, 2011)

don't know about the legality's of it, however i do know anti venom has a limited shelf life, and does not last long, I would also assume that most people would not be able to buy it as it could still be used to kill.

However, someone else will inform more, just from what i remember reading lol.


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## AraCyanea (May 30, 2011)

Kuja said:


> don't know about the legality's of it, however i do know anti venom has a limited shelf life, and does not last long, I would also assume that most people would not be able to buy it as it could still be used to kill.
> 
> However, someone else will inform more, just from what i remember reading lol.


Surely if you gave it the correct temps and all, you'd be able to keep it for a longer period though?
Thanks for replying anyway.


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## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

x-istealbears said:


> Surely if you gave it the correct temps and all, you'd be able to keep it for a longer period though?
> Thanks for replying anyway.



The hospital is still unlikely to use on you though as can't guarantee that you have stored it correctly. 

It is all academic same as people in this country that engage in other risky pursuits like Scuba diving, motorbike racing and other similar activities you are covered by the NHS who will 'foot the bill' for you. Which is a good thing as from what little I have read on here the anti-venom is expensive, dangerous, has a very short shelf life and you need a lot of it.

Check out some of the bite stories that people have posted on here very few of them have been fortunate enough to need just a single vial of Anti-venom if any. Most have been hooked up to drips that have the anti-venom in for a couple of days.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

x-istealbears said:


> I have been wondering, being new to looking into DWA things. Is it possible to buy Anti-Venom in the UK for any venomous snakes you have? I don't own any as of yet, I plan to get eyelash viper in a year or two though, so just wodnering really.


In the UK AV is POM (prescription only Medication) and although it is possible to buy it I very much doubt that a hospital would use it.

Put yourself is their position and would you use someone just present at the time of a bite.

As others have pointed out it is expensive and has a limited shelf life.

Our NHS system provides care in the event on an accident


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## AraCyanea (May 30, 2011)

slippery42 said:


> In the UK AV is POM (prescription only Medication) and although it is possible to buy it I very much doubt that a hospital would use it.
> 
> Put yourself is their position and would you use someone just present at the time of a bite.
> 
> ...


If it was a less venomous snake bite in which a human could survive, it wouldn't be needed, fair enough. Unless the effects were extreme on that person for reasons. 

So, you're saying, if you were in their position and had someone who'd been bitten by an Eyelash Viper, you wouldn't bother giving them AV?

George, I did what you said and yeah I see your point, some guy after being bitten by a Rattlesnake had to be administered 22 vials of it over 4 days in ICU.


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## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

x-istealbears said:


> So, you're saying, if you were in their position and had someone who'd been bitten by an Eyelash Viper, you wouldn't bother giving them AV?


No what he is saying if you turned up to A&E having been bitten by an eyelash viper presenting your own supplies of anti-venom the hospital would bin it and rely on the stuff that would be being flown to them from Liverpool or where ever the other official source of Anti-venom is.


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## AraCyanea (May 30, 2011)

George_Millett said:


> No what he is saying if you turned up to A&E having been bitten by an eyelash viper presenting your own supplies of anti-venom the hospital would bin it and rely on the stuff that would be being flown to them from Liverpool or where ever the other official source of Anti-venom is.


Yeah, it's Liverpool, I see what they mean now.

Sorry for taking it wrong way, snappy mood today.


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## gmccurdie (Jun 1, 2012)

Bothriechis schlegelii - Bite.

you'll like this:twisted:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

x-istealbears said:


> If it was a less venomous snake bite in which a human could survive, it wouldn't be needed, fair enough. Unless the effects were extreme on that person for reasons.
> 
> So, you're saying, if you were in their position and had someone who'd been bitten by an Eyelash Viper, you wouldn't bother giving them AV?
> 
> George, I did what you said and yeah I see your point, some guy after being bitten by a Rattlesnake had to be administered 22 vials of it over 4 days in ICU.


I'm not sure you see the 'big picture' here. Even if you bought enough AV to guarantee you have enough to deal with a major envenomation (20+ vials, at hundreds if not thousands of pounds per vial), and you managed to store it correctly, and you got bitten while the AV was still within its use-by-date... you could not administer it yourself, and most hospitals would need to contact liverpool to determine the dosage and way in which to administer it anyway, in which case it would almost certainly be decided that its best to play it safe and send new AV anyway as they can be sure its not contaminated in any way. 

The US do not have a NHS system, but hot keepers there still do not buy and store their own AV - the required amount gets rushed in to the relevant hospital from venom banks (similar to our Liverpool) at the time of bite and paid for by the patient/insurance depending on how much they needed for that particular envenomation. 

Finally - if it is AT ALL possible to get through the envenomation without the need for AV - its an extremely good idea. Not only could you go into anaphylactic shock (AV is usually made using horses - many humans would have an adverse reaction to foreign antibodies) but you could also get a whole host of other nasty reactions that dont necessarily come on straight away.


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## AraCyanea (May 30, 2011)

chondro13 said:


> I'm not sure you see the 'big picture' here. Even if you bought enough AV to guarantee you have enough to deal with a major envenomation (20+ vials, at hundreds if not thousands of pounds per vial), and you managed to store it correctly, and you got bitten while the AV was still within its use-by-date... you could not administer it yourself, and most hospitals would need to contact liverpool to determine the dosage and way in which to administer it anyway, in which case it would almost certainly be decided that its best to play it safe and send new AV anyway as they can be sure its not contaminated in any way.
> 
> The US do not have a NHS system, but hot keepers there still do not buy and store their own AV - the required amount gets rushed in to the relevant hospital from venom banks (similar to our Liverpool) at the time of bite and paid for by the patient/insurance depending on how much they needed for that particular envenomation.
> 
> Finally - if it is AT ALL possible to get through the envenomation without the need for AV - its an extremely good idea. Not only could you go into anaphylactic shock (AV is usually made using horses - many humans would have an adverse reaction to foreign antibodies) but you could also get a whole host of other nasty reactions that dont necessarily come on straight away.


Obviously, you couldn't administer it yourself, but what if someone in your household had experience in nurse training or something and knew how to properly administer it and it was all in date? If I did get some, I would do the research or find out, how much would be needed, then list it down so they'd know how much and all. Also, I didn't mention anything about buying 20+ vials, I mentioned how I had read it in an article that a guy was administered that much while in hospital. 

^ This now being theoretical.

I don't want loads of raging on this, I was just hoping for some simple feedback, not madness feedback about. I know I shouldn't have been how I was with slippery, but I apologised for that before you may bring it up.

I am not going to get any, like the title says, I was just wondering.


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## AJ76 (May 24, 2011)

The answer would be yes you can (if you could afford it) but it would not be worth it.

Best

AJ


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## AraCyanea (May 30, 2011)

AJ76 said:


> The answer would be yes you can (if you could afford it) but it would not be worth it.
> 
> Best
> 
> AJ


Thank you.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

i was aware liquid antivenom has a limited shelf life but i was under the impression the freeze dried stuff is still being used even if its out of date coral snakes in the us being a classic example of this. IMO if i owned a hot i would only own it if i was able to afford the antivenine stocks and also have the people around me trained to use it. To be fair the nhs are a pile of :censor:when it comes to any sort of foreign envenomation unless u live near liverpool or say london zoo. Also i was under the impression the soone AV is administered the better so say for example a mamba tags u a pressure bandage and time is of the essence i cant see any doctor not using it an letting a patient die. I feel the best protocol that could be put into place is that if u decide to buy a hot (be that spider,scorp,snake,and some marine live blue ringed octis for example (there no av for a caimen ripping ur arm off lol) )that the keeper gets trained on how to administer it and is allowed to own one vial but they have to pay for X number of vials to be held and stored at there local hospital. that way theres no waiting for liverpool to deliver AV and no F ups with using the wrong AV like what happened in the US. This is just my opinion but time saves tissue and lives


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

x-istealbears said:


> Obviously, you couldn't administer it yourself, but what if someone in your household had experience in nurse training or something and knew how to properly administer it and it was all in date? If I did get some, I would do the research or find out, how much would be needed, then list it down so they'd know how much and all. Also, I didn't mention anything about buying 20+ vials, I mentioned how I had read it in an article that a guy was administered that much while in hospital.
> 
> ^ This now being theoretical.
> 
> ...



I understand what your saying, but you could never be sure of how much you are going to need. If you were bitten by the same snake twice over two separate years for example, you could require vastly different quantities of antivenom as no envenomation is the same. : victory:




mikeyb said:


> i was aware liquid antivenom has a limited shelf life but i was under the impression the freeze dried stuff is still being used even if its out of date coral snakes in the us being a classic example of this. IMO if i owned a hot i would only own it if i was able to afford the antivenine stocks and also have the people around me trained to use it. To be fair the nhs are a pile of :censor:when it comes to any sort of foreign envenomation unless u live near liverpool or say london zoo. Also i was under the impression the soone AV is administered the better so say for example a mamba tags u a pressure bandage and time is of the essence i cant see any doctor not using it an letting a patient die. I feel the best protocol that could be put into place is that if u decide to buy a hot (be that spider,scorp,snake,and some marine live blue ringed octis for example (there no av for a caimen ripping ur arm off lol) )that the keeper gets trained on how to administer it and is allowed to own one vial but they have to pay for X number of vials to be held and stored at there local hospital. that way theres no waiting for liverpool to deliver AV and no F ups with using the wrong AV like what happened in the US. This is just my opinion but time saves tissue and lives


Nobody should EVER try to administer AV and 'get over' a bite at home - the risk of going into shock is huge. Aside from that - its not just about antivenom! There are many other treatments only available in hospitals that can be much more important to surviving a bite than AV alone. 

The cost of snakebites to the NHS is absolutely miniscule by comparison with the cost of smoking or obesity related diseases. By your rationale, anyone who wants to smoke or wants to eat an excessive amount should have several thousands of pounds stockpiled 'just in case' they need treatment on the NHS... Or anyone who rides a motorbike should also have a huge amount in savings as they are more 'at risk' of requiring expensive emergency treatment than those who drive a car... Those ideals are not what the NHS system was built on!


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

Stocking antivenom, and having someone administer it is just the beginning of treatment. What about the breathing problems, necrosis, built up preasure, internal bleeding, organ failure, paralysis, and cardiac arrest? 

Where did the 'trained person' learn how to administer antivenom? It's not the sort of thing the average nurse will know anything about. When I informed my doctor about my hots, he asked if I had been vaccinated!! Thats how much the average medical staff know about these sort of things. Asking the keeper (or anyone else) to learn how to administer it isn't really an option. 

The best protocol is to not get bitten in the first place. If you do, then follow the protocols used around the word. Call for an ambulace, keep calm, if possible, lay down (or at least sit) and wait for the people who know what they're doing. Most of all, do NOT try and treat it yourself.

If there were any other way, I'm pretty sure someone involved with venomous creatures would have come up with it by now.


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

George_Millett said:


> It is all academic same as people in this country that engage in other risky pursuits like Scuba diving, motorbike racing and other similar activities you are covered by the NHS who will 'foot the bill' for you.


 
Sorry iv not read it all lol but iv kept DWA if you read my past you will see im also an advanced scuba diver as from the 2nd of september


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## immunetek (Mar 13, 2008)

Anti Venin, whether freeze dried or in liquid form has to be delivered IV in doses dependant on the prevailing symptoms at the time, Usually delivered in a saline type solution and monitored for effects such as heart rate, breathing and local symptoms like necrosisi and compartment syndrome.

It simply cannot be administered direct "epipen" style. You would just up and die.

I havent read this thread thoroughly so I may be duplication things already said but as an example in my Gabby protocol here is a piece of medical contribution to that protocol;

"Dilute the contents of 5 vials of Polyvalent Antivenom in Lactated Ringers Solution to a total volume of 300ml. Administer the antivenom I.V. piggyback over 75 minutes at a rate of 240ml/hour (i.e. one vial per 15 minutes). The combined rate of diluted antivenom and Lactated Ringers Solution is now approximately 500ml/hour. The rate of Lactated Ringers Solution may be adjusted accordingly to avoid fluid overload, however a brisk urine output should be a treatment goal. "

this can not be administered without medical intervention.

I was unfortunate enough to be stung my Death Stalker recently and I was an a drip and hydrated instantly ready fro anti venin if needed


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