# 6500 Kelvin LED Lighting



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

So does anyone use these lights on their vivaria?we are stoked with the ent t5's that we are using but am a bit(understated)scared by the running costs when applied to erm well i ain't quite got there yet but lots of vivs, so am curious if i can get a bigger bang for me buck by using leds and get the same growth rates for the plants. I believe that uvb is not available in this form of lighting does anyone know otherwise? THANKYOU guys Stu


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

LEDs still seem expensive at the moment. For this reason I personally wouldn't bother with them.

As far as I know there are no UV versions.


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> LEDs still seem expensive at the moment. For this reason I personally wouldn't bother with them.
> 
> As far as I know there are no UV versions.


 Nono Frogo:notworthy::lol2: its not so much the initial outlay (they all seem pricey) but more the running costs that is scaring me mate, aren't the led's much cheeper to run?


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Ah, I'm not sure.

Could you not run low energy bulbs? Or I assume you want to run strip lighting above the tanks?


----------



## Jezza84 (Dec 9, 2009)

Not sure stu doesn't seem to be allot out there on the net about these but led's are a hell of allot cheaper to run would be interesting to see a wave length spectrum to compare to normal t5 etc..


----------



## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

plus there is always a chance of the police barging in and checking your not growing pot....apparently they use helicopters to check for enhanced heat and then compare that to increased electricity consumption :lol2: doubt it would ever happen though funny if it did ....


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> plus there is always a chance of the police barging in and checking your not growing pot....apparently they use helicopters to check for enhanced heat and then compare that to increased electricity consumption :lol2: doubt it would ever happen though funny if it did ....


Hehe- I wonder what they make of my flat...:whistling2:

LEDs are *much* cheaper to run, but as yet, I believe there are no UV versions on general sale. I use a low energy bulb in my FBT tank, which seems to work- plants are growing well, too.


----------



## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

I've not seen any UV versions (I'm not sure it's even possible with LEDs, but if it is, I imagine they'd be like the infra red LEDs used in TV remote controls and such and we wouldn't actually be able to perceive them), but I'm looking at putting some 38" white LED strips in the boa vivs I'm about to build.

Didn't realise they were that specific on the colour temperature though. 6500K is very handy.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye, the TMC GroBeams use Cree XP 6,500k LEDs. I have a 1000ND tile over one of my aquariums. The run EXTREMELY cool, and the 1000ND uses only 30 watts of energy. Might seem a lot until you realise they're designed to use in place of 150 watt Metal Halides. :whistling2: Plants positively thrive under them, plus you can get fancy controllers that can even simulate a storm. Purchase cost is very high though.

Ade


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> plus there is always a chance of the police barging in and checking your not growing pot....apparently they use helicopters to check for enhanced heat and then compare that to increased electricity consumption :lol2: doubt it would ever happen though funny if it did ....


 No not if it was MY front door Sam cause then i'd have to bill um and the old bill probably wouldn't pay up so i'd be left with no front door,and as an old hippy they would probably want to see the inside of Shaz's nicker draw as well....it takes all kinds? this has been something that others have already mentioned god help me all i want is to keep some frogs,saw a paper report where the only thing that stopped them stoving in the door was the fact that the lady whom owned the house actually worked for the BILL,her house was new and built so so crap that the cameras picked it up as a hotspot and the rozzers turned out in force for a major bust,any way back to the lights......guys thanks for all the replys , need to go back and read will Q more in a mo


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Jezz yep i would like to see that too,Ron lol,Ade is cree the brand of lightbulb do you know if they are available separately so one could wire up ones own lighting system?


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Kaouthia said:


> I've not seen any UV versions (I'm not sure it's even possible with LEDs, but if it is, I imagine they'd be like the infra red LEDs used in TV remote controls and such and we wouldn't actually be able to perceive them), but I'm looking at putting some 38" white LED strips in the boa vivs I'm about to build.
> 
> Didn't realise they were that specific on the colour temperature though. 6500K is very handy.


 thanks for the reply kiddo,glad to be of service.....though don't ask me who kelvin is :2thumb: Stu


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

'Rozzers'??? How quaint! It's 'gavvers' nowadays!:lol2: 
I'm pretty sure there was a piece in one of the early PRKs where this was covered- and there were definitely no UV-emitting LEDS available yet. It was in a two or three-part series on lighting- should be trackable on their site.


----------



## morenica (Oct 30, 2010)

just a teaser

Products/Categories/LEDs/UV+LEDs


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> 'Rozzers'??? How quaint! It's 'gavvers' nowadays!:lol2:
> I'm pretty sure there was a piece in one of the early PRKs where this was covered- and there were definitely no UV-emitting LEDS available yet. It was in a two or three-part series on lighting- should be trackable on their site.


QUAINT:gasp: OUCH :gasp:now that hurt:gasp: gavvers theys what ya find in compost init: victory: i will go through 'em mate, have all the early ones 'cause of Marc's articles, though for the life of me i can't find the thang about led's


----------



## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> thanks for the reply kiddo,glad to be of service.....though don't ask me who kelvin is :2thumb: Stu


For those that are curious why I was so interested, or even care...

*clears throat* *puts on fake beard and open university instructor voice*

The *kelvin* is a unit of measurement for temperature. It is one of the seven base units in the International System of Units (SI) and is assigned the unit symbol *K*. The *Kelvin scale* is an absolute, thermodynamic temperature scale using as its null point absolute zero, the temperature at which all thermal motion ceases in the classical description of thermodynamics. The reference point that defines the Kelvin scale is the triple point of water at 273.16K (0.01 degrees Celsius). The kelvin is defined as 1/273.16 of the difference between these two reference points.

*Color temperature* is a characteristic of visible light that has important applications in lighting, photography, videography, publishing, manufacturing, astrophysics, and other fields. The color temperature of a light source is the temperature of an ideal black-body radiator that radiates light of comparable hue to that light source. The temperature is conventionally stated in units of absolute temperature, kelvin

Ok, so I nicked that from Wikipedia. 

Kelvin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Color temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reason it peaked my interest is that, while I know there are specific 5600-6500K white balanced LED jobbies available for photography and video applications, they're RIDICIULOUSLY expensive. These seem like a less expensive option for a few applications.


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Kaouthia said:


> For those that are curious why I was so interested, or even care...
> 
> *clears throat* *puts on fake beard and open university instructor voice*
> 
> ...


 Maybe so kiddo but as a beginner i'm in the dark, oh thats awfull, although i know what this 6500k lighting(t5) is doing for my plants so am intregued as for a more economic option


----------



## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> Maybe so kiddo but as a beginner i'm in the dark, oh thats awfull, although i know what this 6500k lighting(t5) is doing for my plants so am intregued as for a more economic option


I think it's one of those things where you have to weigh up initial costs vs long term costs & running expenses.

The other cheap-ish alternative for daylight balanced lighting is compact flourescents. But, for the equivalent amount of light, I would imagine you're going to be using a lot more electricity to run it, and while they do last longer than traditional incandescent light bulbs, I would imagine an LED's lifespan is far far longer - at least as far as the visual light goes.

For UV, I would be curious if any of the studies people have done with flourescent tubs, compact flourescents and mercury vapour bulbs have been done with any of the UV producing LED lights to check their useful output and longevity.

Also, not all UV is useful UV. The wavelengths they output may not be specifically useful for diurnal reptiles & amphibs, so one UV meter that's based more around getting a nice golden tan might be off the scale while something like the Solar Meter 6.2 registers nothing.

And yes, it was awful, I groand as I read it.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Not sure if you can get Cree XP LEDs, but you can buy Cree 6,500k LEDs, and I have seen journals by people building their own LED canopies. From the ones I saw though they ended up spending more. lol

I think for hobbyists all you really need to understand is what the Kelvin ratings mean for us. 2,800k for example is very warm white and gives off a dull looking orangey/yellow light commonly used in living room lighting etc. 5,800k (as found in Biovitals) and 6,500k are what is known as full daylight, and are supposed to reproduce the light colour of a tropical sunshine at mid-day, so bright with a hint of yellow. 8,000k tubes are what is known as Sky white, and give off a very very bright looking ultra white light that is supposed to be like the light on a very bright day with clear blue skies. 10,000k are mostly used by marine aquarium keepers as it contains a lot of blue in with the white, giving a light that tends to look like that you get on a cloudy day, or at depth in blue seas (the higher blue content simulates this as as you probably know blue light penetrates much deeper than red).

I would always say to stick with 5,800k, 6,500k and 8,000k lighting for anything involving plants, as they look best and grow best under these.

Gets even more confusing when you way in with the CRI. lol But that is easy to simplify, higher means better colours, more true to nature.

I wont go into PAR, as if you are using T5HO, reasonably good brands, etc you will have enough of this so long as you have enough wattage. 

Oh, and if for example you are currently using a single 24 watt T5HO lamp you wont make any saving on running costs switching to a 30wat 1000ND, but might switching to the much lower wattage (and cheaper) GroBeam 500s. 

If you ask me if the saving you make going from T5HO to LEDs is worth it, I will tell you no. For the simply reason that they are designed to replace mercury vapour and metal halide lighting, which is far higher wattage and uses far more electricity, at which point the saving comes in. T5HO are already pretty efficent, LEDs though have more PAR per watt than T5HO, so plants do even better even though visibly the amount of light is pretty similar, if not slightly dimmer, with LEDs. My 1000ND tile is doing the job of 4 24 watt T5HO tubes, and plants do seriously well under it, with plants that have a green phase under lower lighting and a red phase under high intensity lighting going decidedly red. So ask me if LEDs are worth it if you can afford them I will tell you yes, just don't buy them for any saving you might make on electricity costs. The true beauty of them is made up of 1) VERY cool running, 2) a LOT of light given off by something a LOT smaller (my 1000ND is 20cms by 20cms square, and will easily light 2.5-3.0 square feet of surface, a lot less light is lost to the sides, so you just raise the light to get more spread), 3) plants LOVE them, 4) the control computers, especially the newer one with a storm function.

Why aren't I using them on my vivs? Purchase cost. I just can't justify it for my vivs, where T5HOs do the job fine, even if I am risking been raided (unlikely as the police have visited a few times for surveys etc they were doing for the local council. lol, our local PCSO stood for quite a while looking at our bearded dragons.). If you are lighting a single display viv that is your pride and joy, definitely justifiable, but not to light a rack of vivs. lol

Ade

PS. Re LED lifespan, TMC state a minimum of 50,000 hours for the Cree X.PE LEDs used in the 1000ND.- Tech specs


----------



## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> 8,000k tubes are what is known as Sky white, and give off a very very bright looking ultra white light that is supposed to be like the light on a very bright day with clear blue skies.


5600K-ish is noon with a clear blue sky, 6500K is on an overcast day, a little bit bluer, 8000K is pretty blue, more like outdoor shaded areas or a partly cloudy day. All pretty natural outdoor colour temps tho.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm not sure why you are contradicting me here? My descriptions are from personal experience, I've actually used these tubes, not guess work or from reading product descriptions.

From your description of 8,000k I can tell you've never used a SkyWhite, as to the eye they don't appear at all blue. Yes there is more blue in them, but this actually just makes the light look brighter white. Your description of 8,000k would actually fit a 10,000k much better.

6,500k is nothing to do with an overcast day, it's mid day sun in the tropics. If it looks dull to you this is just because the human eye perceives this light as duller because there is less blue in it.

As to 5,600k, good luck finding a T5 in that, the closest to that are 5,800k tubes, which to the human eye look no different to a 6,500k tube, they're usually Color 95s though, rather than 858s (which don't exist), which means a CRI of over 90% rather than the over 80% of the cheaper 6,500k 865s.

I did leave one tube out completely, the GroLux types. I left this out deliberately as who wants their frogs lit with purple light? lol I do actually use these over one of my aquariums, combined with 8,000k sky whites, but that is a 4 tube lighting unit...

Regards


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Not sure if you can get Cree XP LEDs, but you can buy Cree 6,500k LEDs, and I have seen journals by people building their own LED canopies. From the ones I saw though they ended up spending more. lol
> 
> I think for hobbyists all you really need to understand is what the Kelvin ratings mean for us. 2,800k for example is very warm white and gives off a dull looking orangey/yellow light commonly used in living room lighting etc. 5,800k (as found in Biovitals) and 6,500k are what is known as full daylight, and are supposed to reproduce the light colour of a tropical sunshine at mid-day, so bright with a hint of yellow. 8,000k tubes are what is known as Sky white, and give off a very very bright looking ultra white light that is supposed to be like the light on a very bright day with clear blue skies. 10,000k are mostly used by marine aquarium keepers as it contains a lot of blue in with the white, giving a light that tends to look like that you get on a cloudy day, or at depth in blue seas (the higher blue content simulates this as as you probably know blue light penetrates much deeper than red).
> 
> ...


 Ihear ya Ade though for sure i'm gonna have to read that afew times ,Mate thanks for the effort and the detail, need to mull over that when not so knackered,for sure i am happy with our lights but i suppose because we are so carefull about what we use i just didn't factor the amount of juice they use ,Stu


----------



## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> I'm not sure why you are contradicting me here? My descriptions are from personal experience, I've actually used these tubes, not guess work or from reading product descriptions.


I'm not contradicting, my descriptions are from scientific fact. 

5600K is noon on the equator on a cloudless day - this is considered "neutral white". As the planet's most abundant light source, it is the light source against which photographic and videographic equipment (and film) has been calibrated since day one.
6500K is an overcast day

This is why camera flashes and "daylight balanced" bulbs are all 5600-6500K in colour temperature.

8000K is slightly blue compared to "neutral white". The higher the colour temperature the "cooler" (towards blue) it gets. The lower the colour temperature the "warmer" (towards red) it gets.



Wolfenrook said:


> 6,500k is nothing to do with an overcast day, it's mid day sun in the tropics. If it looks dull to you this is just because the human eye perceives this light as duller because there is less blue in it.


Who said anything about "dull". An overcast day is not "dull" light (it's actually gorgeous light for shooting in ), it's just slightly bluer than the colour of the light on a cloudless day (which is 5600K).

8000K light is no more or less "dull" than the others either, but it also is more towards the bluer end of the colour temperature scale when compared to 5600K.

In fact, it's about as far away from neutral white as incandescent light bulbs are in the other direction.

The human eye compensates for shifts in the colour temperature of white automatically, and the more you're exposed to it, the more you get used to it and don't even notice it.

Color temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Kaouthia said:


> I'm not contradicting, my descriptions are from scientific fact.
> 
> 5600K is noon on the equator on a cloudless day - this is considered "neutral white". As the planet's most abundant light source, it is the light source against which photographic and videographic equipment (and film) has been calibrated since day one.
> 6500K is an overcast day
> ...


Wow such a learned debate thankyou both there is so much info there so much i really appreciate the depth both of you have gone into:2thumb::notworthy:...Stu.....just wish i could cram it in to me old brain in one hit:lol2: though thats not me i have to bang it in with a hammer ha ha THANKYOU BOTH STU


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ner not really Stu, all I see is another guy who likes to quote Wikipedia.....

I don't know about you, but I am far more interested in people's experiences etc than a bunch of text on a resource that would get you a fail if you tried to use it as a University reference.

Real people, real experience, as in come back when you have actually used tubes of all of those color temperatures, which by the way are considered useless information in plant keeping anyway and should only ever be considered a rough guide. As I already said, I am describing the lights from experience, I've used them all and unlike some I tend to stay away from posting about something that I have no experience with.

Stu, do yourself a favor don't get hung up on color temperature. If you can get it the most useful information is PAR (if you can get it, as this tells you how much USABLE light is been emitted, as in usable for photosynthesis), lumens per watt/total lumens (one or other, doesn't matter which) and if looking at LEDs how focused they are. Then just go for one within the range of 5,800k to 10,000k for aesthetics, as in what you think looks nicest. Or if you are buying T5HO I have used Narva Biovitals, GE and Osram 865s and Osram Skywhites, all of which work great for plants and are pleasing to the eye.

Ade


----------



## Kaouthia (Sep 30, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> Ner not really Stu, all I see is another guy who likes to quote Wikipedia.....


Because the information contained within those pages relevent to the discussion of the colour temperature of light is accurate.

As far as your earlier comment about "guess work or from reading product descriptions". I haven't read the product descriptions, so have no idea what they say and am not "guessing" about their effectiveness or actual colour temperatures.

I'm talking about actually recorded scientific observations of light. Not "guess work" based on personal experience of "oooh that light looks prettiest that must be the right one!".

Colour temperature is a consistent scale that can be measured, like volts, metres, degrees celcius. It's based on scientific measurements not "oooh this light's cooler/bluer than that one, let's put that about here on the temperature scale". 

I'm also not talking about their effectiveness, or any lack thereof, when it comes to using them with plants, amphibians, reptiles or anything else, simply pointing out your inaccuracy that 8K light is considered bright day sun in a cloudless sky. That's all.

Hence only quoting this tiny section of what you posted. I'll quote it again, this time I'll highlight the key point I was referring to in bold.



Wolfenrook said:


> *8,000k* tubes are what is known as Sky white, and give off a very very bright looking ultra white light that *is supposed to be like the light on a very bright day with clear blue skies*.


Well, it's not. That was my ONLY point, which has nothing to do with the amount of experience with these bulbs, it's simply the scientifically proven fact that 8K is not bright day with clear blue skies - which is between 5600-6500K.

You seemed to think this one point was an attack on your character or something and got all defensive. Get over it.


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Yeah i hear you buddy but I know I am not as knowledgeable on these matters as either of you, but i do appreciate what you saying about hands on experiance,mate i am a very low key live and let live guy, so if anyone can be bothered to try to help me i will totally listen to what they say, and be greatful that they have tried to help me out ....then with time i will apraise it, think on it, and probably go my own way. When i looked after some 250 breeds of chuck 20 plus turks.shed loads of geese... nearly every ruddy domestic duck imaginable, there was probably no one in this country with more hands on (THAT IS SO NOT MEANT TO SOUND BIGHEADED) i knew more than the ruddy ministy of ag vets ....but i will still listen to a 5 year old, he might just have found something i don't know ....we are always learning mate and with this frog thing its a huge learning curve for me and I am i fear already going out there big style as i so need my babe to have somewhere where she can contribute (she NEEDS this) so i must listen to everyone ,and I will always be truley greatful if someone responds to my Q's,mate we are all different and have different ways of expressing ourselves,you already know how much i value your help, i appreciate all good will so can't knock what Kathuna has said,but be damn sure i will think on it ....HUGE REGARDS STU: victory:


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sorry it should be KAOUTHIA (sorry you all know i struggle with letters :blush Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

You should read the rest of my last post, where I also stated that color temperature is UNIMPORTANT in plant growth, and should be chosen only for AESTHETIC reasons as well.

Oh and try reading what you quote, you know, the bit that says supposed... At that point I was actually referring to the product description on the ones I bought, the bit you didn't bother to bold is where I described it's VISUAL appearance (and given my previous comment clearly states that color temperature is unimportant for plant growth, how it LOOKS is of far more importance than your 'scientific' fact to the average hobbyist.), try looking at the light emitted by one some time, and I can tell you that it's a fact that to the eye it is VERY white in appearance, and appears brigther than 5,800k and 6,500k lighting which has a much more yellow appearance to it. Oh and please note that I already noted that the whiter appearance is because of the larger quantity of blue emitted by these lights.

Now, to be clearer on the point I also made before, go away and actually use these different lamps to grow plants, and yes for amphibians (this been the amphibian section). I for one don't come onto forums like these to read 'scientific fact', that I can get from real research and published papers.

As to the last part of your last post, and at which point did you get the idea you had the right to tell me what I should or shouldn't do? That is hardly polite debate or discussion really is it...

I don't give a hoot about your 'job' or 'scientific fact'. Get over it. Your information is about as much use to a hobbyist as a chocolate fireguard.

Ade


----------

