# Problems with tropical fish tank



## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

Hi my nan has a small 28 l fish tank. She first got it around christmas and filled with water put declorinator in and waited a week then added some male guppies. One male guppy died so she added females and then ended up with babies. Then in a space of a month or so all the guppies died apart from one. She then added 5 neons and they all died apart from one. She then added a few sucker fish and they died! I then decided to do a complete water change put declironator in waited a few hours and put her one neon and one male guppy back. She then added another group of tetras which have all died apart from another one. She is now left with 2 neons and one male guppy. I really dont know what is going wrong and was wondering what to do. I have marines and at the minute they seem much easier than keeping her tropicals alive:devil: any advice would be good

I was thinking of emptying out the tank. Refilling it and declorinating water changing filter media and leave for a week or two again. I also have test kits for marines. Can I use these on a tropical tank? I have one for ph that says for marines on the front


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Erm, is the tank cycled? It sounds like you haven't the cycled the tank at all.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

I thought leaving it for a week was cycling the tank. How should I cyle it?


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## smeggy (Jun 16, 2011)

trops are easy to care for i think you should try leaving the tank to run for a few weeks keep doing 25% weekly water changes on it and also get the water tested every week you should get results  ive kept marine and trops for years so i know what im talking about and no marine tests dont work on trops hope this helps


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

so I couldnt use a test kit to test PH levels that says for marines on a tropical tank? I would have thought you could. I may try the above as I go round each week as she isnt much good with setting up the tank:2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Nope, hence why the fish are dying.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/fish-keeping/83288-inroducing-fishless-cycling.html

Don't add any fish until it's fully cycled.

You can test the Ph, but it's your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate which are causing you problems.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

I have test kits for tropical for those. I have seen on other websites fish cycling. i was wondering can I fill up the tank, declorinate water and put in the 3 fish which are left and do a 25% water change every week for 6 weeks then test water and see if all is good?


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm with Morgan... sounds like it spiked and wiped out most of the fish.

If it does get restocked, I'd consider stocking a bit more carefully.

Tetras prefer soft, mature water while guppies prefer hard water.

There are very few 'sucker fish' suitable for that sized tank.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Bradley said:


> I have test kits for tropical for those. I have seen on other websites fish cycling. i was wondering can I fill up the tank, declorinate water and put in the 3 fish which are left and do a 25% water change every week for 6 weeks then test water and see if all is good?


I'd rehome the fish for the time being... fish in cycling is cruel and unnecessary.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Bradley said:


> I have test kits for tropical for those. I have seen on other websites fish cycling. i was wondering can I fill up the tank, declorinate water and put in the 3 fish which are left and do a 25% water change every week for 6 weeks then test water and see if all is good?


I'm guessing there's nowhere else for the fish so yeah. 25% a week should be roughly what you're doing when it's cycled. During cycling I'd be looking at that amount A DAY to keep the ammonia etc levels down. There simply won't be enough beneficial bacteria in the filter to deal with all the fish waste and they'll keep dying.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> I'm with Morgan... sounds like it spiked and wiped out most of the fish.
> 
> If it does get restocked, I'd consider stocking a bit more carefully.
> 
> ...


You might be ok with tetras, I've always kept them in hard water and they've done well. If you get good stock and keep on top of filtration etc it should be fine.

28l is small, I'd keep it at around 6 small fish total. Either 6 guppies or 6 neons.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

Should I put new filter media in or should I leave the old one in there that has been in for about 3 months now? Also should I take out all the water and put in fresh then start the cycle?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Bradley said:


> Should I put new filter media in or should I leave the old one in there that has been in for about 3 months now? Also should I take out all the water and put in fresh then start the cycle?


Your filter media may already be part cycled so use it, as long as it's not clogged with gunk it's fine to use. When you do clean it make sure it's with dechlorinated water. Chlorine kills good bacteria.

I would do a 75% change personally. Do try and get a test kit though, it will help in letting you know exactly how your water is doing.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

I have freshwater kits for ammonia and nitrate just not for PH also may have others. I will have a look at the media. So if I wated I could put them 3 fish back in for the cycling period otherwise it is off to aother tank which will not be cycled.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Bradley said:


> I have freshwater kits for ammonia and nitrate just not for PH also may have others. I will have a look at the media. So if I wated I could put them 3 fish back in for the cycling period otherwise it is off to aother tank which will not be cycled.


Ph is how alkaline/acidic your water is. Unless you have a very sensitive fish (you don't) it's not overly important.

If there's nowhere else for the fish then yeah put them in, but keep changing the water everyday so the cycle is less hard on them. I would ideally suggest 50% a day.

Ammonia will increase first, then nitrite, then nitrate. So keep testing regularly to see where it's at.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

thats the thing im only round there once a week so it may be a problem with daily changes. I may chance having the fish in a seperate tank. Should I was all gravel and ornaments in the tank?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Bradley said:


> thats the thing im only round there once a week so it may be a problem with daily changes. I may chance having the fish in a seperate tank. Should I was all gravel and ornaments in the tank?


A separate tank won't help, once they start pooing the problems will start again.

If you can't do the daily changes you'll keep having fish die.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

what about gravel and that does that need changing or washing? Also she has quite a few snails. should i add these to the tank to help or get rid of them if I can?


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

This is how I would go about it since you have the fish anyway, keep the water that u have in the tank. Do a water change every few days
keep the fish that you have and do not buy any more for a few week or so at least, when you do only add a few at a time over coming months.
buy some hardy fast growing plants they will adsorb excess nutrients and will lessen the impact of the cycle on the fish and look good to, buy some tetra easy start and dose the tank as per instruction, Ideally find a friend with a disease free tropical tank and ask to do a media swap doesnt need to be much, swap some of your new stuff for some of there old stuff Or even better if they have an external ask them for the sludge thats in the bottom each time they clean there filter media put this onto your pre filter even use some of there water the bacteria is already in there water as it will me mature. 
Clean the media only with the water from your tank that you are replacing, not dechlorinated tap water or tap water, water your plant and flowers with the water you just cleaned the media in cheap fertilizer good for the plants.

good luck

regards

matt


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

Keep the snails they will keep the thank clean 



Bradley said:


> what about gravel and that does that need changing or washing? Also she has quite a few snails. should i add these to the tank to help or get rid of them if I can?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i would say remove the snails as they are extra bio-load during the cycle. may not be much but in a tank that small where you already have die offs in the fish, its important to have as smaller bio-load as possible. agree with adding the live plants, but ideally it needs daily water changes for the wellbeing of the fish. could you not take the tank home with you for a few weeks until cycled so you can do the partial water changes until its done? we put together a 60L tank for my mother in law, and we did it all at ours then once done, took out 90% water and drove it to her house, re-set it up with dechlorinated water and the bacteria lived as it was kept wet for the drive. it was like a big water change.

i wouldnt wash the gravel, as a lot of the bacteria which will have started growing will be living on it. gravel vac it by all means to remove the poop/uneaten food etc though.

if you can find someone with an established tank, ask for a handful of their gravel or a piece of their filter media to put in the tank for a couple of weeks to help seed this tank with the bacteria. remember it will need to stay wet until it goes into this tank, and it needs water flowing over it to maintain the life of the bacteria so get it in this tank asap. 

always use dechlorinator on all tap water before it touches anything in the tank, especially any filter media. do not swap out any filter media unless it is literally falling apart.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

Thaks for the info. I have a small filter that doesnt work no more. Is there any way I can at home grow bacteria on the media inside and then take it round to speed things up? If I can how can I do this>


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Bradley said:


> Thaks for the info. I have a small filter that doesnt work no more. Is there any way I can at home grow bacteria on the media inside and then take it round to speed things up? If I can how can I do this>


No, because it will grow at the same rate as your current tank.

Ditch the snails, they only clean algae which you can do by hand, they poo more than you think.

Ditto on the plants. Get something like Wysteria and plant big clumps in the tank.

50% water changes a day, once every few days is not enough.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

if you have an established tank at home or know of someone with one, you can run that small filter in the tank and it will colonise within a week or 2 to use on the other tank. however, if you had someone with an already established tank as said you can take the media or gravel and add it to the new set-up so im guessig you dont know anyone with one.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

You could try an LFS to see if they'll help you out.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

I have seen on a few sites people have had success from using media from a koi filter. I have a established koi pond. Can I take some media from this? It had about 8 weeks ago some treatent for green water that was barley straw extract. Would this be ok?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't see why not. It's the same bacteria.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

ok im going to try this. i am going to test the water before I start to do anything as if ammonia and nitrates are all fine I will add the pond media and wait a few weeks. may add some plants aswell


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

I would suggest putting the media including some pond water into a bag, then floating it for about 1 hours this will help the bacteria get used to the change in temps which should help reduce bacteria die of. 
As for the snails and bio load you need the load on the system to create the bacteria and to keep it alive I would leave them in the tank as they will break down the detritus faster keep the tank clean, which again helps with the cycle. 

regards

matt


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Why do you need help with the bioload? You want it fairly low so as not to hurt the fish, throwing more waste in won't speed up the cycle.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

may also put some pond weed in aswell to help. It currently doesnt have an airstone either. Should I add one?


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Why do you need help with the bioload? You want it fairly low so as not to hurt the fish, throwing more waste in won't speed up the cycle.


 Funny that but you are so wrong, if you put media in that already has the living bacteria you need to feed the bacteria and you bypass the cycle altogether, do it your way and chances are the die off from the filter bacteria will kill the fish not the cycle.
I cycled my tank with fish and never had any spikes why because firstly it was cycled with a tank fully of plants, I used filter bacteria but importantly I fed the bacteria and there was no chance of it spiking because the ammonia was broken down before it became an issue. I haven't lost any fish at all so proof is in the pudding.

matt


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## caribe (Mar 21, 2010)

Bradley said:


> may also put some pond weed in aswell to help. It currently doesnt have an airstone either. Should I add one?


If you have good water turnover at the surface then its not needed. The oxygen inly gets into the water when the bubble bursts at the surface.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

shouldnt need one then


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

matthew_harwood said:


> Funny that but you are so wrong, if you put media in that already has the living bacteria you need to feed the bacteria and you bypass the cycle altogether, do it your way and chances are the die off from the filter bacteria will kill the fish not the cycle.


I thought we were still on uncycled tanks, hence you stating you need the bioload to CREATE the bacteria. Too much bioload and the bacteria won't process ammonia and nitrites quickly enough.

If you're talking about using an established filter then no you don't bypass a cycle, it's already cycled.

What is my way?



> *I cycled my tank with fish* and never had any spikes why *because firstly it was cycled* with a tank fully of plants, I used filter bacteria but importantly I fed the bacteria and there was no chance of it spiking because the ammonia was broken down before it became an issue. I haven't lost any fish at all so proof is in the pudding.


 

Proof of what? That a cycled tank with lots of live plants doesn't have any spikes? Well obviously not, it's cycled. If it's already cycled when you added fish then no, you didn't cycle it with fish.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Bradley said:


> Hi my nan has a small 28 l fish tank. She first got it around christmas and filled with water put declorinator in and waited a week then added some male guppies. One male guppy died so she added females and then ended up with babies. Then in a space of a month or so all the guppies died apart from one. She then added 5 neons and they all died apart from one. She then added a few sucker fish and they died! I then decided to do a complete water change put declironator in waited a few hours and put her one neon and one male guppy back. She then added another group of tetras which have all died apart from another one. She is now left with 2 neons and one male guppy. I really dont know what is going wrong and was wondering what to do. I have marines and at the minute they seem much easier than keeping her tropicals alive:devil: any advice would be good
> 
> I was thinking of emptying out the tank. Refilling it and declorinating water changing filter media and leave for a week or two again. I also have test kits for marines. Can I use these on a tropical tank? I have one for ph that says for marines on the front


Twenty eight litres is too small for the fish you are keeping. You are always going to kill fish using such a tiny tank. These nano tanks are really designed for shrimps not fish.

Either upgrade the tank or keep shrimp instead. 

Make sure you cycle the filter properly before adding any shrimp though.


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

My tank was cycled with fish, it had plants and snails also, I had a full test kit.
I tested every few days it never spiked because i was adding bacteria daily all components were there, the bacteria had food so quickly populated the filter, the plant quickly grew and used excess nutrients, the biggest mistake is that people do not feed the bacteria. This mean the bacteria do not grow as they have no food and quickly die as long as you have the nutrients for the bacteria already in the system then they will grow.
As for the OP tank if you put some seeded filter media into the tank you will not get spikes because it will be cycled already, however to keep it cycled you need to have fish to produce food for the bacteria or they will die thus creating the a filter crash and killing the fish.
This is not my first fish tank, I've had cold water,tropical all types, marines, seahorses bred and raised successfully, I have never had a crash yet, always set them up the same.
If you understand the process then you can totally bypass the filter cycle as long as you do not overload the filter when adding new fish then you will not have issues.

just because some people do something one way does not mean thats the only way to do it.


matt


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

matthew_harwood said:


> My tank was cycled with fish, it had plants and snails also, I had a full test kit.
> I tested every few days it never spiked because i was adding bacteria daily all components were there, the bacteria had food so quickly populated the filter, the plant quickly grew and used excess nutrients, the biggest mistake is that people do not feed the bacteria. This mean the bacteria do not grow as they have no food and quickly die as long as you have the nutrients for the bacteria already in the system then they will grow


.

What do you mean you were adding bacteria daily? Anyone cycling with fish is adding bacteria daily. The only way you starve the bacteria is not having any fish in. Are you suggesting that if cycling with fish you need to start with lots of fish?




> As for the OP tank if you put some seeded filter media into the tank you will not get spikes because it will be cycled already, however to keep it cycled you need to have fish to produce food for the bacteria or they will die thus creating the a filter crash and killing the fish.


Yes, this is what everyone has been telling him. He has fish already, they will be feeding the bacteria. You suggested keeping the snails to add to the bioload otherwise the bacteria will die off. They won't, he has fish in there feeding the filter.

The snails were to be moved if he was using an uncycled filter. 




> This is not my first fish tank, I've had cold water,tropical all types, marines, seahorses bred and raised successfully, I have never had a crash yet, always set them up the same.


I'm sorry, it's not clear exactly how you set them up.



> If you understand the process then you can totally bypass the filter cycle as long as you do not overload the filter when adding new fish then you will not have issues.


He is having issues, the fish keep dying.



> just because some people do something one way does not mean thats the only way to do it.


His way is killing the fish, so it's the wrong way to do it.


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

OK so you are one of those people who know everything and like to do this sort of thing so here goes



Morgan Freeman said:


> Your filter media may already be part cycled so use it, as long as it's not clogged with gunk it's fine to use. When you do clean it make sure it's with dechlorinated water. Chlorine kills good bacteria. you advise him to use dechlorinated water then tell him chorine kills good bacteria what about water temp changes and ph changes they will wipe out bacteria just as good, if your doing a water change then you should always use the water from your tank to clean media
> I would do a 75% change personally. Do try and get a test kit though, it will help in letting you know exactly how your water is doing.


 75% is way to excessive for a water change this alone could kill the fish and the filter bacteria, small but often is better and safer than large water changes.




Morgan Freeman said:


> Ph is how alkaline/acidic your water is. Unless you have a very sensitive fish (you don't) it's not overly important.
> PH not overly important really do you know anything about aquariums and water chemistry from what the OP says it could just as easily be a PH crash that is killing the fish, knowing your PH is very important and you should monitor it as well as GH and KH
> If there's nowhere else for the fish then yeah put them in, but keep changing the water everyday so the cycle is less hard on them. I would ideally suggest 50% a day.
> 
> Ammonia will first, then nitrite, then nitrate. So keep testing regularly to see where it's at.





Morgan Freeman said:


> No, because it will grow at the same rate as your current tank.
> 
> Ditch the snails, they only clean algae which you can do by hand, they poo more than you think. snails do not only eat algae they also eat uneaten food and detrus breaking them down faster and helping to speed up the process they can be removed easily later in the process so that more fish can be put in the tank as there will already be the bacteria to cover the new arrivals
> 
> ...


50% is far to much to change in one go the good bacteria not only lives in the filter it is also in the water, changing 50% doesn't allow the water to mature it also has the potential to knock the bacteria back, monitor ammonia and change water when the ammonia starts to rise if it get to high then do a 50% but not until then.

see we can all poke holes in other people advice however it doesn't mean your advice is better it just means its different. If you want to help the guy give him good advice and accept that there are more than one way to skin a cat:bash:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

matthew_harwood said:


> This is not my first fish tank, I've had cold water,tropical all types, marines, seahorses bred and raised successfully, I have never had a crash yet, always set them up the same.


I'm not sure if I understand this right, but you put marine fish in an uncycled tank, especially horses, they will die, no chance you've set them up with fish during cycle.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

there is no issue with doing large regular water changes, as long as the new water is dechlorinated and temp matched. i carry out weekly 50-60% water changes on my fancy goldfish tank and they are thriving. i carry out 40% weekly partial water changes on my tropical community and they too are thriving. 

i agree if you are testing the water at least twice a day on a cycling tank then you wont need to change out the water so much or so often as long as the readings remain low, but to say doing a large partial water change is harmful to the cycle is poor advice as the fish could well be suffering in the potentially toxic conditions of an un-checked tank. the way ive read it they dont have the required test kits, so in order to ensure the live stocks quality of life, doing the larger partial water changes more often will ensure they do not suffer. very little of the bacteria live in the water column itself, so as long as you arent washing out the filter media etc it will make little difference apart from keeping the toxins in check. yes it may possibly draw out the cycle process a little, but surely better that than suffering living creatures. the fact they have fish dying in there shows that there is a need for something to be fixed.

if the OP can get the established filter media, then the bacteria will be in there, so the tank will no longer be cycling. to have the heaviest bio-load possible during the cycle is simply cruel, much harder on the fish in there, and harder on the keeper if they have no way to seed the tank as the water quality will fall much faster and the water changes will need to be larger and more frequent. once the bacteria are in there, its much faster for them to increase in colony size than it is to establish a colony. hence start with minimal stocking to keep the bacteria fed and growing, and then very slowly stock the tank afterwards. given this tank is not really suitable for any fish, let alone a high stocking, leaving just the fish in there and removing the snails is the best bet in this instance if the fish cannot be rehomed to do a fish-less cycle IMO.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

Here is what I am going to do:
Put a piece of filter media from my established pond into the filter
Do a 40% water change (this can be done daily if it has to be)
refill with declorinated water at right temp
Put in new aquatic plants
Test for ammonia, nitrate and nitrite and do this weekly


My nan currently has one neon and one other type of tetra in there but lots of snails. I plan on taking most of the snails out Because this filter media in there hasnt been washed for a good 3 months it should already have quite alot of bacteria growing. If eveerything goes well hopefully she can add a few more small fish about 6 weeks later. Also the carbon hasnt been changed for about 6 months should i cange this nw or will that kill off more bacteria? and also to add it is 34 l not 28l i got it wrong


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

matthew_harwood said:


> OK so you are one of those people who know everything and like to do this sort of thing so here goes


Jesus, don't get your pants in a twist, all I've done is ask you to explain yourself.




> 75% is way to excessive for a water change this alone could kill the fish and the filter bacteria, small but often is better and safer than large water changes.


There is no such thing as an excessive water change. You change whatever amount keeps the parameters at the right level. 75% was a one off, seeing as HIS FISH WERE DYING in the water he had. It was uncycled, so he needed to remove as much ammonia and other waste in the water as possible.








> 50% is far to much to change in one go the good bacteria not only lives in the filter it is also in the water, changing 50% doesn't allow the water to mature it also has the potential to knock the bacteria back, monitor ammonia and change water when the ammonia starts to rise if it get to high then do a 50% but not until then.


No, it MAINLY lives in the filter and gravel etc. You can't let the water mature WITH FISH in as it won't mature fast enough. There will still be ammonia, nitrite and nitrates in the tank. This is the entire basis behind fishless cycling. Look, he was adding fish and hoping the cycle would happen on it's own, it didn't, his fish died. Not changing water daily will leave these high amounts in the water column and kill the fish, as demonstrated by the fact his fish were dying.



> see we can all poke holes in other people advice however it doesn't mean your advice is better it just means its different. If you want to help the guy give him good advice and accept that there are more than one way to skin a cat:bash:


You've ignored my questions and still haven't explained exactly why yours work without harming the fish.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

your plan sounds good to me. although im slightly confused as to how this tank hasnt cycled in 6 months of useage or was the carbon running in a different tank before? can you say exactly what the readings are for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in this tank? 

if you are using established media and can keep check on the levels you may not need to do the daily water changes, but you can only leave it if the water is checked every day for high ammonia or nitrites. the tank is so small that the parameters will swing quickly, so i would also reduce feeding to once every other day if you arent there to keep testing things. that carbon needs changing out if you want to use it, i have never put carbon in any of my tanks but i know a lot of people do. the tank is approx 7 gallons but thats before any water is displaced with gravel and decor and going by it being filled to the brim. i would stick with 6 small tetras in total, unfortunately there are 2 types of tetra in there and they really need groups of 6+ to be happy so maybe its an idea to rehome whichever single one and add to the group of the other type. once cycled this is. i really think removing the snails is for the best too, they really poop a lot, and a simple clean sponge once a week will remove any algae they may happen to have cleaned up if they were in the tank. 

im thinking that possibly rather than the tank not being cycled, it may be overfeeding causing the water to pollute very quickly which is killing the fish. the excess snails is also a good indicator that too much food is being put in. with the fish, plus the large amount of snails, plus over feeding, in a tank this small it could spell disaster.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

goldie1212 said:


> your plan sounds good to me. although im slightly confused as to how this tank hasnt cycled in 6 months of useage or was the carbon running in a different tank before? can you say exactly what the readings are for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in this tank?
> 
> if you are using established media and can keep check on the levels you may not need to do the daily water changes, but you can only leave it if the water is checked every day for high ammonia or nitrites. the tank is so small that the parameters will swing quickly, so i would also reduce feeding to once every other day if you arent there to keep testing things. that carbon needs changing out if you want to use it, i have never put carbon in any of my tanks but i know a lot of people do. the tank is approx 7 gallons but thats before any water is displaced with gravel and decor and going by it being filled to the brim. i would stick with 6 small tetras in total, unfortunately there are 2 types of tetra in there and they really need groups of 6+ to be happy so maybe its an idea to rehome whichever single one and add to the group of the other type. once cycled this is. i really think removing the snails is for the best too, they really poop a lot, and a simple clean sponge once a week will remove any algae they may happen to have cleaned up if they were in the tank.
> 
> im thinking that possibly rather than the tank not being cycled, it may be overfeeding causing the water to pollute very quickly which is killing the fish. the excess snails is also a good indicator that too much food is being put in. with the fish, plus the large amount of snails, plus over feeding, in a tank this small it could spell disaster.


The carbon hasnt been in any other tank. I have been putting new in every few months to keep water clearer. I havent got any readings yet but should have some soon. i will look into the over feeding aswell. I cant see how it hasnt cycled aswell though. But when a fish has been dying my nan has just left in in the tank unless im there. this could be causng high ammonia which the amount of bacteria there is cannot cope with


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Bradley said:


> The carbon hasnt been in any other tank. I have been putting new in every few months to keep water clearer. I havent got any readings yet but should have some soon. i will look into the over feeding aswell. I cant see how it hasnt cycled aswell though. But when a fish has been dying my nan has just left in in the tank unless im there. this could be causng high ammonia which the amount of bacteria there is cannot cope with


Yeah it will be.

I hate to be rude, but should your nan be looking after fish?


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

Mate you need to check PH, KH and GH the tank will be cycled if its been running for that amount of time. if you keep loosing fish then chances are the ph might be crashing or fluctuating this will kill fish faster than anything else as they are very sensitive to swings in PH.


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

unless the filter is massively undersized for the tank a dead fish in the tank will not cause a huge difference in load on the filter it should be able to handle a dead fish, however she should remove the dead fish anyway as it could cause disease etc. look to be honest from everything that you have put she just needs to keep to few platies guppies etc fish that are hardy but not to many.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

erm, so you are saying that she needs to get hardier fish so they suffer longer and dont die so easily rather than fix the issue at hand??? and just because a tank has been running for months or even years doesnt mean it is cycled, if the owner does partial or complete water changes every week or 2 with untreated tap water for example the bacteria will be killed off at every change. 

the fish in the tank when dead will break down and cause an ammonia spike, yes in a 200L tank for example it may not be noticeable and the increased water volume will dilute the ammonia moreso but this is a 34L tank, a tiny 7 gallons, even a dead neon will cause an ammonia spike regardless of filter size in this small water volume.




when can you get water test results? ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates too. ideally done with a liquid drop test kit as strips can be a bit innaccurate.


i think your nan needs to reconsider having fish if she isnt able to remove the dead bodies of the fish that are dying. it will cause further issues for the remaining live fish. there is something serious going on in there, and simply putting in hardier fish is most definitely not the way to go, im so pleased you are looking to fix the problem rather than keep buying new fish in the hope they will survive :2thumb:


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

@ goldie1212 no i'm saying she would be best keeping something that is hardy and then only a few at that , say platties etc that can handle changes in environment better, neons can have NTD so while they may be classed as hardy they really are not. I'm also the one that told the OP to fill the tank with fast growing plants these in themselves will reduce any cycling, 
Secondly yes if she was to keep washing the filter with water from the tap or even in my opinion dechlorinated tap water then yes it may not be cycled because bacteria may be killed, but after the amount of time the filter has been running the amount of ammonia nitrite and nitrate converted your telling me there isnt enough bacteria it should have built up enough by now to compensate for excess ammonia up to a point. Add to this I was the person that actually told the OP to find already cycled media so as to bypass the cycleing process
at to that not one of you has asked the most important question which is what type of water does he have in his grans area is it hard, soft or even very soft, freeman stated that PH was not important everybody straight away assumed that its because the filter wasn't cycled that the fish keep being killed but PH KH and GH are as important in tracking down the cause as the rest yet none of you have asked those questions, why?. 
As for large water changes you are better doing small but often than large water changes, water changes stress fish period, tap water will have different chemistry to tank water, the chemistry will be differant so doing excessively large water changes will change these excessively causing stress in the fish and possibly effecting filter bacteria, like you stated in a big tank that may not be an issue but in a small tank it would be.
Freeman the bacteria are everywhere they settle in the media, gravel, sides of the tank everywhere but are also present in the water how do you think they get everywhere, doing large water changes daily dilutes the bacteria which means it would take longer to populate the media.
I however agree that you water change to keep your tank stable however if you have to do such large water changes to keep the tank stable then there are issues that need to be resolved!!!


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

I didnt think she would be wanting to do water changes but spoke to her and she said that she can so no worries. regarding the dead fish the ones she hasnt got have been hard to get and by the time she looks in the morning most have been eaten by other things. Im culturing the bacteria from my pond and I have told her to not put any more fish in so will have to see how everything goes!


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Bradley said:


> I didnt think she would be wanting to do water changes but spoke to her and she said that she can so no worries. regarding the dead fish the ones she hasnt got have been hard to get and by the time she looks in the morning most have been eaten by other things. Im culturing the bacteria from my pond and I have told her to not put any more fish in so will have to see how everything goes!


Bradley, with regret her fish are always going to die in this tank. It's a miniscule 28 litres. Until you and her realise that this is far too small for keeping a community of fish you're simply condeming them to death each and every time she buys one. Twenty eight litres is just about large enough for a single Betta splendens. 

No fish sold unfer the name 'suckermouth catfish' are suitable. Some of these can grow to 18" in length. Tell her she needs to upgrade.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I only said Ph was relatively unimportant considering the conclusion at the time was an uncycled filter.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

were you referring to my need to do such large water changes to keep my tanks stable? if so, i dont need to, i do them to keep the nitrates as low as possible. under 40ppm is ok, under 20ppm is much healthier, and as i have zero plant growth in the 150gallon goldfish tank (they consider it a purpose made salad bar!) and little growth in the 95gallon tropical tank (poor lighting and no CO2) i have to keep on top of the maintenance via water changes. as i suffer with rheumatoid arthritis i am unable to do the water changes myself so i need my husbands help, he works 6 days a week so on a sunday on his day off we do the water changes. once a month we also clean out the filters using old tank water too. both of my tanks are very stable, and all of my fish are thriving in my care. yes, it would be better to do 2-3 20% or so partial water changes through the week, but for us that isnt an option. 

i do agree with mynki on this one, a single betta would be a far better option for this very small tank. either that, or an upgrade so the tank can remain more stable between the partial water changes. as others have said, plenty of live plants and low bioload and hopefully the tank will be ok. good luck.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice guys!


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I only said Ph was relatively unimportant considering the conclusion at the time was an uncycled filter.


 your the one that came up with that conclusion without any real evidence, like i stated at the start it could be Ph related and is more likely than a filter not cycleing after 6 months and thus highly important


@goldlie1212 my comments were to make a point we can all criticise other people and the way they keep there tanks and\or fish its not hard because fish keeping is like everything in life there is more than one way to do it.

I do not do many water changes in my 180l I have very low reading all round have fast plant growth and only have 3 T8 bulbs I do not have co2 either, as for the goldfish tank you can keep anubias and javafern with goldfish and they dont like to eat them, they dont need much light and feed on nitrates which means this should lower the nitrate meaning less water changes.

There was another thing that came to me the other day that could explain these deaths and that is how is she introducing them into the tank is she floating the bags then adding the tank water a small bit at a time or is she just putting them into the tank.

regards

matt


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

could you please visit my 9" fantail and 10" oranda and let them know they dont like eating anubias and java fern, they havent cottoned on to that fact :2thumb: the smaller guys in there dont really do much damage unless its elodea, but those 2 big guys pull apart anything, they even try the plastic plants :gasp:

my other tank has anubias, java fern, baby tears and java moss growing in there, but its all slow growing. i think the 28" tank depth may have a bit to do with it but im not fussed, its all alive and growing slowly so im ok with it.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> could you please visit my 9" fantail and 10" oranda and let them know they dont like eating anubias and java fern, they havent cottoned on to that fact :2thumb: the smaller guys in there dont really do much damage unless its elodea, but those 2 big guys pull apart anything, they even try the plastic plants :gasp:
> 
> my other tank has anubias, java fern, baby tears and java moss growing in there, but its all slow growing. i think the 28" tank depth may have a bit to do with it but im not fussed, its all alive and growing slowly so im ok with it.


Hi Goldy

You could try Crinum thaianum or even Crinum calamistratum. I've supplied Anubias heterophylla, afzeli, lanceolata and hastifolia to a friend who has some very large goldfish in an 8' tank. The goldfish have left these alone.

Best
Mynki


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

^LOL
Elodea is great for anything, and it's native 
i'm agreeing that 28L is barely big enough fir shrimp.
up scale big time.
anybody considered adf's? yay or ney?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

Mynki said:


> Hi Goldy
> 
> You could try *Crinum thaianum or even Crinum calamistratum*. I've supplied Anubias heterophylla, afzeli, lanceolata and hastifolia to a friend who has some very large goldfish in an 8' tank. The goldfish have left these alone.
> 
> ...


:blush: never heard of them, will definitely look into them though, thank you :2thumb:

edit to say ive just found both on ebay, just need to save some spare pennies and il be trying both...big thank you


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

matthew_harwood said:


> your the one that came up with that conclusion without any real evidence, like i stated at the start it could be Ph related and is more likely than a filter not cycleing after 6 months and thus highly important


What? Adding fish into an uncycled tank which keep dying isn't good evidence that an uncycled tank is the problem?



Bradley said:


> I thought leaving it for a week was cycling the tank. How should I cyle it?


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

Again cherry picking so back at you

"Hi my nan has a small 28 l fish tank. She first got it around christmas and filled with water put declorinator in and waited a week then added some male guppies."
"One male guppy died so she added females and then ended up with babies. Then in a space of a month or so all the guppies died apart from one"

when he posted his question it was June! 5 to 6 months with bioload one way or the other it will have enough bacteria to cycle a tank, also at one stage she had male\female guppies for a month yes they died however i think thats more to water quality, so I go back to my last reply there was no evidence that the fish kept being killed due to an uncycled tank more likely fish load + water quality or other reasons as other people have also stated such as over feeding\not floating the fish (my suggestion)\ amount of fish and water quality\PH swings (my suggestion) etc . That being the case every part of the water quality would be important including PH KG GH etc to diagnose what is going wrong with the tank


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

goldie1212 said:


> :blush: never heard of them, will definitely look into them though, thank you :2thumb:
> 
> edit to say ive just found both on ebay, just need to save some spare pennies and il be trying both...big thank you


 Have you also tried floating plants I have duckweed in my tropical tank it grows so fast the fish may not be able to keep up with eating it , then when its full I scoop most out, and let it grow again it really is a fantastic nitrate remover and very easy to remove.

regard

matt


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

matthew_harwood said:


> Have you also tried floating plants I have duckweed in my tropical tank it grows so fast the fish may not be able to keep up with eating it , then when its full I scoop most out, and let it grow again it really is a fantastic nitrate remover and very easy to remove.
> 
> regard
> 
> matt


yes ive tried floating plants, several times now, no matter how much i put in there, its gone within 24hours. these big goldfish are dustbins for anything even remotely edible :lol2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

matthew_harwood said:


> Again cherry picking so back at you
> 
> "Hi my nan has a small 28 l fish tank. She first got it around christmas and filled with water put declorinator in and waited a week then added some male guppies."
> "One male guppy died so she added females and then ended up with babies. Then in a space of a month or so all the guppies died apart from one"
> ...


What indicates bad water quality?

I'm not cherry picking. Do you know what that means?


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

goldie1212 said:


> yes ive tried floating plants, several times now, no matter how much i put in there, its gone within 24hours. these big goldfish are dustbins for anything even remotely edible :lol2:


 Ok Goldies theres another option how about sectioning a portion off, something I did with one of my reefs get a piece of glass the same length as your tank but slightly higher than the water level then silicon that 4 inches or so from the back of your tank. fill it with plants then have your filter outflow into that section it will act as a veggi filter for one and an added bonus is you also have a plant based background. A bit of work but worth it in the end because it will allow you to lower the water changes keep nitrates down and also add plants to the mix, add to this you could add shrimp that would will breed and add to the food source for the goldfish when they are flushed out keeping your goldfish active.



Morgan Freeman said:


> What indicates bad water quality?
> 
> I'm not cherry picking. Do you know what that means?


 Morgan you have to be joking!! :bash: which part points to bad water quality, lets see the overstocking of guppies maybe! males, female and their babies sound very over stocked to me, lack of known water changes, a blocked filter that has not been cleaned for months, no PH GH KH readings, and they are only some of the things that point to water quality, you want me to go on making you look like a Muppet! 
Cherry picking aka picking the best bits aka picking the best bits to support your argument, however missing out all of the evidence that does not support your argument!!!


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I would suggest that its more than likely an overfeeding issue in too small a tank. A 28 litre ( 5 gallons after displacement) isn`t too small for many of the smaller tetras but is best left to the experienced ie not this lads NAN .

Too much talk of ammonia yet again in these threads most general community tanks run at around pH 7 which means there is virtually no chance of there being a build up of ammonia but there could be ammonium which is relatively harmless.

The big killer in freshwater is NITRITE this in a small overfed ill kept tank could rise quickly and not be neutralized quickly enough after a heavy feed.

I would suggest as has been already said by MF to keep up some big water changes regularly switch to a spartan feeding regime ie two or three flakes every other day till things stabilize.

Talk of a pH crash is a bit dramatic but a drop could explain some of the guppy deaths and as i think has been mentioned any rotting corpses would make things a lot lot worse.

I think the real solution is to trade up to something a little bigger and a lighter feeding hand.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

matthew_harwood said:


> Ok Goldies theres another option how about sectioning a portion off, something I did with one of my reefs get a piece of glass the same length as your tank but slightly higher than the water level then silicon that 4 inches or so from the back of your tank. fill it with plants then have your filter outflow into that section it will act as a veggi filter for one and an added bonus is you also have a plant based background. A bit of work but worth it in the end because it will allow you to lower the water changes keep nitrates down and also add plants to the mix, add to this you could add shrimp that would will breed and add to the food source for the goldfish when they are flushed out keeping your goldfish active.


my goldfish are plenty active enough, and id rather they had all the room to swim around in than have sectioned off parts of the tank. im happy doing the larger water changes, ive been doing it like this for years and they are thriving. they get plenty of live plants in the tank, but they are for salad bar reasons, if they survive and grow for a while then great (hornwort usually lasts a couple of weeks) but if not then its no bother to me as i know they have enjoyed them :2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

matthew_harwood said:


> Morgan you have to be joking!! :bash: which part points to bad water quality, lets see the overstocking of guppies maybe! males, female and their babies sound very over stocked to me, lack of known water changes, a blocked filter that has not been cleaned for months, no PH GH KH readings, and they are only some of the things that point to water quality, you want me to go on making you look like a Muppet!
> Cherry picking aka picking the best bits aka picking the best bits to support your argument, however missing out all of the evidence that does not support your argument!!!


OMG. It was a retorical question. Why are you being so rude? Because I disagree with you? Anyway, the retorical question was what indicates bad water quality, not causes it.

I've given evidence as to why I thought it was an uncycled tank, what exactly after you after?

My statement about Ph was the general level that his water would be at, not whether it's spiking or not.

Please try not to get so upset this time.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> :blush: never heard of them, will definitely look into them though, thank you :2thumb:
> 
> edit to say ive just found both on ebay, just need to save some spare pennies and il be trying both...big thank you


PM me. I have access to around 500 aquatic and terrarium plants depending on supplier and seasonal availability. At prices much cheaper than those found on Ebay. 

The last Nymphae rubra bulbs I bought cost me 8 pence plus vat.


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## matthew_harwood (Mar 12, 2005)

Morgan Freeman said:


> OMG. It was a retorical question. Why are you being so rude? Because I disagree with you? Anyway, the retorical question was what indicates bad water quality, not causes it.
> 
> I've given evidence as to why I thought it was an uncycled tank, what exactly after you after?
> 
> ...


LOL I get upset becuase you are a Pri**, I do not mind people disagreeing with me because that is how we learn, however argument for argument sake is pointless.
what indicated bad water quality, you really are joking surely, an over stocked tank stinks of bad water quality, lack of water changes, blocked filter these are all answers that the op has stated which point at bad water quality this is also evidence of bad water quality the fact the OP has to go and remove dead fish, do water changes etc this is evidence of bad water quality these issues can change water chemistry including ph etc that is why I stated PH is important always, Your evidence does not make sense a tank would be cycling if certain requirements are met, these had been met in the 6 months it was being run, ammonia to feed the bacteria etc, your evidence was the fish deaths not very good evidence maybe the first couple of deaths yes but not 6 months later by that time there would be enough bacteria to cover the bioload period. anyway Bored of you :Na_Na_Na_Na::bash:


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