# All keepers please read, this is very important......



## Khanidge (Jul 25, 2008)

I do not know if this has reached here yet. *However this is serious. This is not an April fools.*

Below is a copied post from Chris Newman (chairman of the FBH) and a link to the original thread.

Please NO Negativity here. All Exotic Animal/invert keepers are in serious threat of loosing their rights....... and so are keen Gardeners.......

Kindest regards Dean Whitbread..... 

Vice Chairman of ERAC (Essex Reptile and Amphibian Club) And Member of IAC (Invicter Arachnid Club)


Threat to Reptile Keeping (split from Al's thread) - Page 4 - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum

Below is some information I have circulated to as many interested groups as I can, if other wish to circulate this information or post it on other forums please feel free to do so. 



Invasive Non-native Species Policy Discussions within the European Union

Dear all,

Discussions and preliminary consultations commenced midway through 2010 on the development of an EU policy on the issue of invasive or potentially invasive non-native (or alien) species – both plant and animal but from here onwards this summary will concentrate on animal-related concerns. Previous discussions had taken place between 2005-2010 but have become a lot more important because of the European
Union’s stated intent to enact some form of legislation on the issue as part of their commitments on biodiversity. A consultation – not well publicised – took place over the summer of 2010 and according to EU officials most respondents were British (both from the pro-keeping and pro-trade side and from the animal protectionist & animal rights side of the argument).

A stakeholder consultation meeting took place on 3rd September with attendance dominated by those opposed to animal-keeping and trade in animals. Although the legislation – likely to be either an EU Directive or Regulation – will consider aspects such as who pays for non-native species becoming established and how to eliminate or control species that have become invasive the biggest concern for animal keepers and animal traders is the area that will be covered by the Prevention Working Group.

The heavy area of dispute - not surprisingly – will be focused on whether the legislation should have white or black lists for import and for home possession/trade. Those opposed to animal keeping have strongly demanded the use of very restricted white lists (of species ‘proven’ by risk assessment not to present a potential invasive
species problem) with everything else banned. Those few on the Working Group supportive of animal keeping and trade have argued strongly in favour of a limited and focused black list that would require exemptions or licensing to import/keep/trade and everything else to be kept and traded.

It is clear that at least some Member States support the idea of the use of white lists which, if implimented, would be a disaster for those keeping and/or trading in non-native species. There are also several representatives of Member States who have indicated no great enthusiasm for white lists.

The other main threat – irrespective of whether white or black lists are used – is the EU’s consideration of whether or not the same lists should be used across all EU Member States or whether there could be separate lists by country or by biogeographic area. Having a single list for the entire EU would present keepers and traders with immense problems since clearly many more species could potentially become established in say the Canary Islands or Cyprus than could in Germany
or Finland. Hence a single unified list could easily see the prohibition of a species like the Corn Snake across all EU countries because it might be potentially invasive in southern European areas. 

The pro-keeping side of the equation have secured two positions on the Prevention Working Group but it is very important that keepers organizations from countries other than the UK start to actively lobby their Governments (the animal rights groups in several EU Member States were represented at the 3rd September consultation meeting but, noticeably, not the representatives of the equivalent animal-keeping
organizations).

DG-Environment on behalf of the European Commission expects to pull-together the recommendation and option documents from the three Working Groups in the summer of 2011. The consolidated document will then be put out for public comment and any revisions made with the intent of a final recommended document to be presented to the European Commission and Council of Ministers in late 2011 with legislation being enacted sometime in 2012.

This is in my view the single greatest threat to the keeping of reptiles and amphibians within the European Union that has ever emerged. Unless we, keepers, participate and represent our interests we face a very uncertain future!

Regards,

Chris Newman
Federation of British Herpetologists
Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade association

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 0044 (0) 23 8044 0999
Mobile 0044 (0) 7897 692060


Development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species:
European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity


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## emmabee (Oct 29, 2010)

you beat me to it!!shekked section also know! 

come on guys you are included in this.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

good luck everyone: victory:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

theres a signiture pertition here, it might not do any good, but i might help. 

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/herpingban/


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## Nell (May 3, 2011)

Hey, my friend linked me to this a few months back so I'm just gonna copy and paste my reply 

I studied EU law last term, and I'd say it's very unlikely that this legislation will have a severe impact upon animals kept as pets -the entire point of the European Union is to promote trade between member states, and as such in order for them to ban trade of animals, the risk posed must be proportionate to the economic loss, and impact upon people - therefore, if the Directive is implemented so as to ban certain animals it will be a VERY limited list.

Furthermore the possibility that these lists will become standardised would not be in fitting with the purpose of the EU, as it is clearly disproportionate to ban certain animals from countries where they could not become established if accidentally lost. The money lost from the pet trade if say the corn snake was banned would be vast, and even very sporadically kept pets have a significant impact upon the economy. I therefore think the problem of the lists being rolled out EU wide is incredibly slight.

By all means sign the petition, as it would be a crime to lose exotics pets in this country, however I really wouldn't lose too much sleep over it


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## oscar96 (Nov 7, 2009)

Nell said:


> Hey, my friend linked me to this a few months back so I'm just gonna copy and paste my reply
> 
> I studied EU law last term, and I'd say it's very unlikely that this legislation will have a severe impact upon animals kept as pets -the entire point of the European Union is to promote trade between member states, and as such in order for them to ban trade of animals, the risk posed must be proportionate to the economic loss, and impact upon people - therefore, if the Directive is implemented so as to ban certain animals it will be a VERY limited list.
> 
> ...


Well said sadly the OP likes to roll this post around all over the forums its old its not going to happen but it makes the OP feel special


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Nell said:


> Hey, my friend linked me to this a few months back so I'm just gonna copy and paste my reply
> 
> I studied EU law last term, and I'd say it's very unlikely that this legislation will have a severe impact upon animals kept as pets -the entire point of the European Union is to promote trade between member states, and as such in order for them to ban trade of animals, the risk posed must be proportionate to the economic loss, and impact upon people - therefore, if the Directive is implemented so as to ban certain animals it will be a VERY limited list.
> 
> ...


I would just like to point your attention to the european protected species list, that did exactly what you are saying can't happen last year. 

If you follow the work of the IHS and Chris newman, who brought this too light. The policy was discussed in the EU last month, and we are presently waiting for an outcome

It does look like, the policy has been put back, but it was still discussed in the eu. A blacklist was unlikly, but still a possiability, however even the chance of a blacklist warrents our concern. No one said we should all jump up and wave our arms about because of it, but we should be aware of it, and prepared to fight it if something was made of it. I would rather be aware of the possibility of something coming and a chance to say my piece rather then sitting back in ignorance. 

jay


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

oscar96 said:


> Well said sadly the OP likes to roll this post around all over the forums its old its not going to happen but it makes the OP feel special


I find your post arogant and complently useless. The post copied by the OP is simply repeating information posted by Chris Newman in other places here so the exotc mammel people who dont venture into orther section can see it. 

If you have any knowledge of reptile leglisation and the people who fight to keep reptile keeping legal in the UK you will know who Chris newman is, i'll let you google it. You wouldnt be keeping what you do now without him. 

The leglislation was dicussed in the Eu last month and we are waiting for an outcome, it appear to be highlightly unlikely that a blacklist will occur but it was a possibility. . 

There is a small possiability that it could have resulted in a blacklist, you only have to read the proposed leglislation, and how far it actually got to undesrtand that it was a very real possibility. Surly any help is worth it, rather then sitting back in you chair going, it wont happen. its arragance like that which ment the hobby nearly got banned 10 years ago. it was only Chris Newman and the IHS fighting that stopped the leglislation days before it was passed. 

There are numerious in depth discussion on the leglislation on this and many other forums, i wont bother reapeating it for you, but heres a link, go and have a read and educate yourself. Heres one that was interesting in the frog section http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/682771-attention-stop-ban-before-its.html, read the links to the Eu website and proposed leglislation. Simular leglislation has already been brought in in the form ot the european protected species list last year. people then said it would never happen, and oh no, guess what, it happened . 

jay


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## Nell (May 3, 2011)

Spikebrit said:


> I would just like to point your attention to the european protected species list, that did exactly what you are saying can't happen last year.
> 
> If you follow the work of the IHS and Chris newman, who brought this too light. The policy was discussed in the EU last month, and we are presently waiting for an outcome
> 
> ...


I'm afraid in that respect you're wrong the EPS protects a very limited group of native European species. I did not say that animals being blacklisted "could not happen" -but I mentioned one of the principle concepts in EU law: i.e that measures are proportional. The point of that legislation was to ensure that certain endangered species are afforded some form of protection in the wild -therefore the legislation is proportionate as the interest in question is sufficiently important to override the economic interest. One of the main reasons they are banned without a license is to prevent them being wild caught. Licenses can be applied for in regard to these animals -however the list is very limited!

I'm not criticising increasing public awareness of EU legislation like this directive, on the contrary I think it is important, however I believe it should be tempered, as (to the layman) the first post can be shocking, and as evidenced on the other threads results in scaremongering. 

People are sufficiently ignorant to EU law in this country that they will believe almost anything you tell them. The concept of a white list with all else banned is so far removed from the principle of proportionality, there is no way in hell it could be implemented as it would be *UNLAWFUL* under EU law. To suggest that it will be implemented is nothing short of irresponsible.

If white lists were by some strange turn of events implemented they could be brought in front of the European Court of Justice, who would quash them for being unlawful.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Nell said:


> I'm afraid in that respect you're wrong the EPS protects a very limited group of native European species. I did not say that animals being blacklisted "could not happen" -but I mentioned one of the principle concepts in EU law: i.e that measures are proportional. The point of that legislation was to ensure that certain endangered species are afforded some form of protection in the wild -therefore the legislation is proportionate as the interest in question is sufficiently important to override the economic interest. One of the main reasons they are banned without a license is to prevent them being wild caught. Licenses can be applied for in regard to these animals -however the list is very limited!
> 
> I'm not criticising increasing public awareness of EU legislation like this directive, on the contrary I think it is important, however I believe it should be tempered, as (to the layman) the first post can be shocking, and as evidenced on the other threads results in scaremongering.
> 
> ...


I would love to agree with you, and to be honest I do to some extend, however i feel everyone should be aware of what could, even it a long shot, could happen. 

I can understand what you mean about the aspect of of scaremongering, however, i think most people, with common sence, and who have read the discussions should be able to see its only a possibility. it was suggested and actually got quite far. Ok, the idea of whitelist is unlikly, but still a possibility, though a small one. 

I am not sure it would be so quickly quashed, but i do agree there would be an outcry. However, i would much rather know about it now, then when, if, it gets to that stage. I have some knowledge of how the EU work, though not loads, my law knowledge is gernerally focused on UK leglisation. 

The EPS list is socking. The animals, on the eps list have nothing to do with wild caught, as far as my understanding goes, as they were protected from capature by cities. The EPS list also list species that are only endaged in cretain areas, where as in others they are health populations, i blanket bans species that are only endaged in very small areas. In additon, i beleive the list also includes a selection of animals that died out years ago. The EPS list is a farce. It has basically ment all legally held animals were given up, despite it still being legal to keep them, but with the burden of proof on the keeper, basically ment that these animals were not kept. It has also ment that capative breeding project for these speces have gone undergrown, despite it being legal, as the burden of proof is crazy. It has basically brought in a totaly ban on these species without calling it a ban. But i realte it to this case. Back then species on the list were commonly kept, in healthy numbers in the UK and other countries, people then, just like now, said it would never happen, they cant bring in a ban, a ban is unlawful, the EU cant allow it, and so on, just like now, and a list, though smaller then expected was brought in. 

I really hope all is quashed, but i am glad i was made aware of it as i can now follow it in the EU, and not be surprised when, what the likly outcome of a small blacklist is released. SOmething will come out of it, more then likley a small blacklist, but it is a start of small limitations coming out that will influence it.

America has seen leglistation come in recently, and i can see simula bills, just like this one in the EU, being discussed more and more, in the next 2 years. 

Jay


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## red foot marg (Feb 19, 2008)

sounds like a lot of hot air


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Nell said:


> Hey, my friend linked me to this a few months back so I'm just gonna copy and paste my reply
> 
> I studied EU law last term, and I'd say it's very unlikely that this legislation will have a severe impact upon animals kept as pets -the entire point of the European Union is to promote trade between member states, and as such in order for them to ban trade of animals, the risk posed must be proportionate to the economic loss, and impact upon people - therefore, if the Directive is implemented so as to ban certain animals it will be a VERY limited list.
> 
> ...





oscar96 said:


> Well said sadly the OP likes to roll this post around all over the forums its old its not going to happen but it makes the OP feel special





red foot marg said:


> sounds like a lot of hot air


I wish the above were true, but unfortunately it's too late. 

We are now basically down to the stage where they are 'choosing' between white lists and black lists.

DG-Environment on behalf of the European Commission expects to pull-together the recommendation and option documents from the three Working Groups in the summer of 2011. The consolidated document will then be put out for public comment and any revisions made with the intent of a final recommended document to be presented to the European Commission and Council of Ministers in late 2011 with legislation being enacted sometime in 2012.

So not hot air..


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## Khanidge (Jul 25, 2008)

Nell said:


> Hey, my friend linked me to this a few months back so I'm just gonna copy and paste my reply
> 
> I studied EU law last term, and I'd say it's very unlikely that this legislation will have a severe impact upon animals kept as pets -the entire point of the European Union is to promote trade between member states, and as such in order for them to ban trade of animals, the risk posed must be proportionate to the economic loss, and impact upon people - therefore, if the Directive is implemented so as to ban certain animals it will be a VERY limited list.
> 
> ...


Nell, Your comment's are correct about the amount of revenue raised through the pet trade. This is the angle that Chris and the FBH have taken to our government. Our government are backing us due to this, as are France, at the moment. The problem is out of the 27 European states, they are the only two so far. The other governing states need to follow suit as the UK and France have. 
This letter written by Chris has been pasted everywhere as to raise awareness to the other keepers in Europe, To spread the word and try to get them to force their governing bodies to join this fight along side us.
There are Keepers/breeders all over the UK and Europe translating and spreading the word of what is going on, so they can join us.




oscar96 said:


> Well said sadly the OP likes to roll this post around all over the forums its old its not going to happen but it makes the OP feel special


This is your opinion. However this is mine :bash:, I have been keeping reptiles for over 26 years and have always had pets through out my 33 years of life.
Do you honestly think I feel good about spreading this awful situation?
The answer is *NO*. This threat is real. Take some notice of what is going on outside your bubble. 
I wish that this will just blow over then we can all get on with being "keyboard Warriors" as so many like to be.
I have been asked by the FBH to help them. So have you, and every other pet owner (read Chris's Letter) it's a desperate plea to all it concerns (pet owners) to help spread the word to our European cousins and explain what is going on behind our backs in European government.
If it all goes Tits up then at least I can say "I tried", Will you?
I don't want to start an argument I'd like to meet any of you keepers face to face over a pint or two and talk about our passions in pet keeping, and I hope in the future I still can.

Kindest regards Dean Whitbread... Vice Chairman of ERAC (Essex Reptile and Amphibian Club)


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

I am curious to see the outcome of the latest meeintg.

The oestrage position favoured by many reptile keepers is not one that will work this time. 

jay


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## barbetuk (Jul 1, 2011)

*All keepers please read ....*

In view of the attacks on the various livestock hobbies in both UK and Europe - highlighted by Chris Newman, there is a course of action which every keeper (whether they keep reptiles, birds or animals) can do to help.

CONTACT YOUR MEP via the following link :
Your MEPs | European Parliament Information Office in the United Kingdom

seding a copy of Chris Newman's "open letter" requesting that the MEP question the process and reminding the MEP of the sheer volume of business generated by the Pet Trade, the amount of Tax generated by the Pet Trade and the fact that some 67% of EU households keep pets of one sort or another.

CONTACT YOUR MP via the following link :
Lists of MPs - UK Parliament

sending a copy of Chris Newman's "Open Letter" and requesting the MP to contact DEFRA and make your views known.

These actions are something that EVERY keeper can do - it only takes a few minutes on the computer! 

GIVE CHRIS NEWMAN SOME PRACTICAL SUPPORT AND BACKING AND HELP SAVE OUR HOBBIES.


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