# Quick links for those wishing to be enlightened



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Here is a thread for anyone wishing to be enlightened as to whats currently being said by AR campaigners about your hobby, quick links to the relevent info ...

This is what they think....

http://www.animalaiduk.com/images/pdf/factfiles/reptile.pdf

http://www.animalaiduk.com/images/pdf/pettrade.pdf

Animal Aid: The pet trade

RSPCA || Campaigns homepage

RSPCA || Exotics

PETA Media Center > Factsheets > Facts on Reptiles

Pet Shops

BBC - Science & Nature - Articles - The truth behind the exotic-pet trade

This is the sort of person they have batting for them....

Animal Aid: MINI-BIOGRAPHY Clifford Warwick CBiol FIBiol MIBI 

And this is how they can directly influence what happens to our hobby... 

House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Minutes of Evidence

The purpose of this thread is purely informational and if you read the links you will see how it all fits together, if you cant be bothered to read the links I will give a quick summary..
*They dont like you keeping pets, *
*they use "respected" reptile expert/s (their words), *
*these "expert/s" are consulted with over legislation that affects your hobby.*

I am no expert in this field, and I am sure there are far more people on here qualified to state these facts, but I think it really needs spelling out these are not just nutters protesting outside mcdonalds , they collect money and use it to employ people to fight their cause legally & professionally, a cause that is all about stopping you from keeping pets.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

very interesting but the last few of those are between 6 and 7 years old but some are still relevant:no1:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

its all just a load of bullsh*t, it does my head in, all the time they talk about all these people that mistreat dont give the correct enviroment to their animals, what about all of us that spend a great deal of time and effort insuring our animals are kept in top conditions.

They mention a few times about animals, trying to get out of tanks and how its unnatural behaiviour how about dogs scrathing at doors, and whining to be let out surely thats unnatural behaviour as well.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

what makes me laugh is how they throw in phrases like "most caged animals live ther lives forgotten and neglected" thats a bit of a sweeping statement.

Its all rubbish theres always going to be people that oppose it and make stuff up.

Something that crops up alot though which is true is the amount of WC stock and how its captured and transported, but this doesnt mean a total ban.

A reptiles enviroment is easy to replicate, they live in vivs which are there perfect microclimate if kept correctly.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

SiUK said:


> its all just a load of bullsh*t, it does my head in, all the time they talk about all these people that mistreat dont give the correct enviroment to their animals, what about all of us that spend a great deal of time and effort insuring our animals are kept in top conditions.
> 
> They mention a few times about animals, trying to get out of tanks and how its unnatural behaiviour how about dogs scrathing at doors, and whining to be let out surely thats unnatural behaviour as well.


 
exactly, where do you draw the line with natural behaviour? rabbits living in warrens, dogs hunting their prey down in packs over vast areas?:lol2:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

really its not natural behaviour humans living in houses in built up cities, surely we should be living in caves and hunting food with spears, running amok wearing nothing but a stinking animal skin loin cloth.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

captaincaveman said:


> very interesting but the last few of those are between 6 and 7 years old but some are still relevant:no1:


All taken from current AR campaigns running on the net, apart from the last one which was used to demostrate their direct influence on goverment.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

pink said:


> All taken from current AR campaigns running on the net, apart from the last one which was used to demostrate their direct influence on goverment.


 
ah ok, just the animalaid biographys dated 2000 and the bbc one says its from a 2001 magazine article, we always knew that the vegan sites etc would always print this cr*p, some of the others are a different story

I read somewhere that theres a million exotic keepers in this country and that the rspca hasn't got the resources to procecute and remove every animal, i also remember it saying somewhere that animal for animal that exotics are the second (or third)largest kept group of animals(as we all keep more than one)

dont quote me on that, thats from memory:lol2:


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

"A reptiles enviroment is easy to replicate"

you never been to an actual rainforest then ?


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

vikki_john said:


> "A reptiles enviroment is easy to replicate"
> 
> you never been to an actual rainforest then ?


Thanks to advancements in technology, it is know possible to accurately control Heat, Light, and Humidity with great precison. for example Dartfrog keepers can utilise lighting that is operated automatically with seconds precision, heating can be controlled to a precise degree and then dropped at night again to degree precision. Humidity can be maintained to exact % precison with the use of artificial rain systems and humidity controllers. All though you cant fit a whole rain forest in a terrarium you can reproduce a tiny part of it that animals are perfectly happy to live, feed and reproduce in. This level of sophistication of equipment can be compared to the Life support systems employed by marine fish keepers to recreate tiny slices of Coral reefs in aquaria.


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

Ya cannot fully replicate enviroments down to detail in a viv. My friend has the best arrow frog set up i ve ever seen and he admits that its no where near the natural enviroment. Reptiles tolorate captivity not sure they like it. Some species better then others. Im not an anti or anything but am realistic.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

vikki_john said:


> Ya cannot fully replicate enviroments down to detail in a viv. My friend has the best arrow frog set up i ve ever seen and he admits that its no where near the natural enviroment. Reptiles tolorate captivity not sure they like it. Some species better then others. Im not an anti or anything but am realistic.


with a bit of anti thrown in. By saying they are easy to replicate I was meaning the correct heat and humidity, which as well as hiding places is what an animal needs, they are not clever enough to think oh no this isnt like a rainforest or desert, so thats not an issue. The important bit is heat and humidity which yes is easy to replicate.

You are humanising them too much.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

vikki_john said:


> Ya cannot fully replicate enviroments down to detail in a viv. My friend has the best arrow frog set up i ve ever seen and he admits that its no where near the natural enviroment. Reptiles tolorate captivity not sure they like it. Some species better then others. Im not an anti or anything but am realistic.


Can I ask why you keep reptiles if you feel they are only tolerating the habitat you provide for them?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*mmm*

Just a view point tho isn't it?

In many respects, perhaps it is true surely?

Never recreate a natural environment to the fullest, you can replicate certain environmental [artificials] such as Si has made statement to, heat and humidity, but albeit its still a viv not a jungle.

I am not anti either, but there are those out there who are, they have stronger views than this.

R


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

I am not an anti i keep reptiles but i face facts captivity is not 100% good for them. Im not gonna pretend it is.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

vikki_john said:


> I am not an anti i keep reptiles but i face facts captivity is not 100% good for them. Im not gonna pretend it is.


Whilst I see where you are coming from, living in the wild is not 100% good for them either. In captivity they may not have the space to roam etc. that they would in the wild, but they are also not eaten by predators, have access to vets if illness strikes, have a relatively easy time of it finding food, they don't generally suffer from extremes of weather, and they're not likely to have their tree chopped down for firewood/timber, swamps drained for agriculture......and the list goes on.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Agree*

I agree with you, and l am not calling you an anti either, but it would have been nice if you had been offered a more responsive reply than what you were. 

Highlighting the principals behind those kept in captivity and acknowledging the facts that we are not able to 100% recreate the environment but what is done to replicate it the best way we can as professional keepers.

You VJ, have already pointed out about a friend who has an excellent set up, yet even they admit to the fact that it can never replicate the true environment.

R

Well done Fixx, this is the answer VJ should have received, in the first place


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

another point is that alot of snakes have adapted well to change, certain snakes even seem to have benifited from humans taking over the areas they live in, bringing with them rodents, secure places to live and im sure there are others.

Im sorry Vicki if you felt I jumped down your throat at all, I was trying to state my opinion, sorry if it came across wrong:surrender:.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

It seems to me that with each captive bred generation snakes are adapting to being kept as pets.

Take wild caught Mandarin rat snakes for example. These are VERY difficult to keep alive in captivity ( and no, I have never owned one myself ) but they are now breeding in captivity and the hatchlings are far more tolerant of their captive environment. F2's even more so !. Reptiles adapt easily ... it's the key to their survival for millions and millions of years.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

two things..

first off...



> the rspca hasn't got the resources to procecute and remove every animal


if the figures i have seen are accurate.. 

i know EXACTLY what they do with them all....

they re-home them to one of these...










Fixx - good answer.. pink... not so good answer - if this was an anti, you would be playing right into their hands with that response!

yes, there is of course, no way, that you can fully re-create the "wild" in a viv, tbh you could not even do it in a room, or a large warehouse.. 

on the other hand, do you really want to FULLY replicate the wild... 

the wild includes.. habitat loss, parasites, predators, lack of prey, lack of water/clean water.. 

so yes they may be free to roam, but they are also free to catch diseases, harbour parasites, get eaten by predators, starve to death from not finding food.... many reptiles, in ways, do better in captivity than in the wild, they live longer, have healthier lives, attain bigger and healthier adult body sizes, produce more healthy young.. the list goes on..

N


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I think Vikki raises some very good points. Snakes, in my opinion, do not *like* being handled and I doubt very much whether they like being gawped at in their vivs all the time either.

They do have a better life in captivity because they are free of predation, disease are fed on a very regular basis ... but this can ( and does ) lead to some unhealthy and overweight animals.

Just because they have a better and probably longer life than they would in the wild does not mean they have a better quality of life in captivity. Surely this is the same for any animal including man. 

I keep snakes because I find them to be fascinating animals and they are my pets. They are there for my pleasure ... I do not kid myself that I am necessarily doing them any favours by keeping them and if out climate warrented it they would be outside in an enclosure where they could get sun, fresh air and excercise rather than shut away in a viv in my snake room.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Well I stand by my original reply!

Sorry but if i thought i couldnt offer the same as the wild or better I wouldnt entertain keeping these animals, let me explain.. An animals natural range is dictated by a few basic things 1, the ability to find food, 2, the ability to reproduce 3, the need for shelter. Take for example budgies, they travel in flocks, they find food eat it and move on they never have a permanent home. Other animals have dens / hides etc they leave this comfort zone to find food, once found they return, the only other reasons for a day out would be to breed or because they are under threat (fight or flight). No animal (that I know off) goes for a walk in the jungle for a day trip for fear of being eaten. We as humans are also dictated to by these basic rules, we have the freedom to roam the planet but we dont, we go from home to work to home to the supermarket/shops. we dont travel 1000 of miles from home to work and the shops because we are dictated to by our natural range.

I too keep dart frogs, they have a large terrarium, the internal enviroment (Heat, light and humidity) mimic the wild perfectly, the planting mimics the wild, there are places to hide and places to breed allowing natural behaviour to be displayed. they are fed a variety of foods and allowed to hunt out the food. Do i believe I am giving my animals the same as the wild NO - I belive i am giving them better, I am giving them the ability to live in a natural habitat with the freedom from natural predators, fresh food as and when required and the ability to breed whenever they want. Wild - plus benefits.

If i felt i couldnt give any of my animals 100% of what they require I wouldnt keep them, With the products and knowledge available today there isnt any excuses not do this.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

regardless of how good or bad living in a box can be made...

you still _cannot _totally replicate the wild, within the confines of four walls in england.

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*My argument is this..*

Whether you stand by your reply or not is in some respects irrelevant Pink.

Now you show a much fuller response.

If we take into account, just an example, a thread entitled Brainwashing Your Kids, here it stabs at the AR Movement for their lack of correct applied knowledge.

My argument is even if the writer was a member of the opposition movement then they still would have and should have received more than a challenging closed ended question. The opposition have the right to ask these questions off us, should they brave the forums, if of course they are not here already.

You have now shown how you feel, where as the collective response was applying the same techniques.

If you had perhaps read a little into Vickis post history, then you would have discovered that she feels for the environement. And l see no wrong what so ever of any pro keepers asking themselves if they are 'doing the right things for all the animals they keep' its only natural to look at the two sides of the coin. It makes us who we are as keepers.

All l am saying is that a little more probing would have helped perhaps?

If we are to educate, then we must do that, do you not agree?

Rory Matier
TSKA PKL


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

in order to 100% replicate, natural enviroments you would need to replicate the negatives as well as the positives, which is impossible, IMO its a no win argument, although I believe that in the wild they would have more room and to live a natural life, I also believe that in captivity especially WC they know no better, and adapt to the situations very well.

Like I mentioned before there are snakes that have phrived better since man has moved into the areas they live in, instead of driving them out the numbers have increased, which just proves how versatile they are and how well they can adapt.

I read on a few of those pages about how they need exact tempeatures in order to survive, well since when has nature been that precise??


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> Well I stand by my original reply!
> 
> Sorry but if i thought i couldnt offer the same as the wild or better I wouldnt entertain keeping these animals,


I cant find the actual figures at the moment... I must have read them in a book at home. But I am pretty sure that the natural territory of an adult rat snake which are the only types of snake I keep is bigger than 48"x24"x24" which is the size of their vivariums.

To offer them the same as in the wild, or better, each male snake would need a territory that is bigger than my back garden.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> If we are to educate, then we must do that, do you not agree?


I fear that people stating that they can do as good a job as nature in a box in their house are the sort of statements that animals rights people want to see because it is simply not true.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

yus steve. trick is to be realistic about it.. you cannot fully replicate the full depth and breadth of "the wild" from a 4x2 tank in a living room in superbia.. surely no one is really enough of a fool to believe that!

the thing is, this is not always a bad thing.. the wild is a violent, hostile place at times. 

there is nothing wrong with admitting we cannot duplicate the wild in captivity, the wild is not always the best place to be, we would not necessarily WANT to duplicate it in captivity, even if we could.

providing the perameters in which an exotic species can comfortabley live in captivity, is not the same as duplicating the wild, and if a keeper wants to argue that, then the antis would have good reason to turn it and use it back against us!

N


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm not for one minute saying we should or can Nerys. I am just saying that AR would take any statement saying that we keep them as well or better than nature does and tear it to shreds.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

god totally, lol... trouble is there enough muppets in this game to feed them just that sort of bullsh*t

!

N


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

this is why its a no win argument, because there is right and wrong on both sides, and both sides are quite rightly very stuborn over it.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

hey nerys, that pro keepers lobby in your sig looks interesting, is it still early days? as some of the links aint up yet? may be worth me looking further into offering help:no1:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

cool hon  you should sign up!

N


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

ratboy said:


> I cant find the actual figures at the moment... I must have read them in a book at home. But I am pretty sure that the natural territory of an adult rat snake which are the only types of snake I keep is bigger than 48"x24"x24" which is the size of their vivariums.
> 
> To offer them the same as in the wild, or better, each male snake would need a territory that is bigger than my back garden.


but in the wild if its prey sat outside its hide waiting to be eaten its natural range would be much smaller



> If we take into account, just an example, a thread entitled Brainwashing Your Kids, here it stabs at the AR Movement for their lack of correct applied knowledge.


Its not an attack on the lack of applied knowledge, its a wake up call to show what they are teaching the kids and that we have no counter to it.



> My argument is even if the writer was a member of the opposition movement then they still would have and should have received more than a challenging closed ended question. The opposition have the right to ask these questions off us, should they brave the forums, if of course they are not here already.


Its started with "Can I ask" and ends with a question mark, yes it is a challenge why would somebody keep a pet if they thought that pet was not 100% happy with how they are being kept. I have the right to ask questions back,



> If you had perhaps read a little into Vickis post history, then you would have discovered that she feels for the environement. And l see no wrong what so ever of any pro keepers asking themselves if they are 'doing the right things for all the animals they keep' its only natural to look at the two sides of the coin. It makes us who we are as keepers.


I did thats how i knew she kept reptiles, from the response my interpretation was not "am i doing the right things" but "I know i am doing the wrong things" 



> I fear that people stating that they can do as good a job as nature in a box in their house are the sort of statements that animals rights people want to see because it is simply not true.


Not as damaging as saying we cant give these animals what they need, they are already saying that for us. I believe we can do just a good a job as nature - we give them everything they require and remove the bad bits.



> yus steve. trick is to be realistic about it.. you cannot fully replicate the full depth and breadth of "the wild" from a 4x2 tank in a living room in superbia.. surely no one is really enough of a fool to believe that!


no but like i have said we should aim to replicate everything they do need from the wild and eliminate the bad bits.



> I am just saying that AR would take any statement saying that we keep them as well or better than nature does and tear it to shreds


Crested geckos - nature dropped a clanger on that one, or perhaps mans interference with nature, after all they were presumed extinct, and now bred in captivity in the thousands.

And why dont we take any statement saying that we cant and tear it to shreds, why do we say fair enough we cant replicate what they need from the wild but we do our best.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> why do we say fair enough we cant replicate what they need from the wild but we do our best.


Because that is the truth. If we take "We" as meaning the average reptile keeper, I think most of the following are basically true.

We do not replicate exact natural day lengths.

We do not replicate seasonal diet variances.

We do not replicate totally natural diets.

We do not replicate daily temperature fluctuations.

We do not replicate rainfall.

We do not replicate wind.

We do not replicate feeding patterns.


These are just off the top of my head and these are all things that animals get for free in the wild without necessarily being 'bad bits'. Do we know categorically what effect their absence in the lives of captive animals has ?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Nerys said:


> cool hon  you should sign up!
> 
> N


done:no1:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Because that is the truth. If we take "We" as meaning the average reptile keeper, I think most of the following are basically true.
> 
> We do not replicate exact natural day lengths.
> 
> ...


we do not replicate parasites, diseases, predators and more of the negative side of things that is natural, so for example if we had the ability to keep a reptile exactly how it would be kept in the wild, large space, unrealistic paralels, but just say it could be done, if we started throwing in natural predators, not controlling against natural diseases not giving medical care, because thats how it is in the wild, we would be jumped on charged with animal cruelty, banned from keeping animals and fined.

So in that way the antis would love to see that happen but they also dont want animals kept how we keep them, its a lose, lose situation.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

> We do not replicate exact natural day lengths.


Why not? There are lighting timers so that we dont even have to think about this, in fact exo-terra have just released a light controller that dims striplights, you tell it what time you want dawn and dusk it does the rest for you. 



> We do not replicate seasonal diet variances.


If your pet needs that then why not, surely we feed less prior to hibernation / brumation



> We do not replicate totally natural diets.


No we provide better



> We do not replicate daily temperature fluctuations.


why not, there are thermostats that can fluctuate temperatures upon timer control that is perfectly viable and easy to do. 




> We do not replicate rainfall.


My dart frogs have a lucky reptile "super rain" it replicates rainfall whenever the humidity drops too low.



> We do not replicate wind.


see habistat cool control



> We do not replicate feeding patterns.


thats easy enough to do


The technology is there if only you embrace it.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I am not saying we should introduce things that are obviously detrimental to the health of our animals Si.

Yes we have removed the dangers that immediately surround them. But we have also removed other less noticable things too and I don't think anybody really knows what effect the absence of these things or changes that we enforce in their natural behaviour have on them.

We are in a young hobby that is constantly learning and constantly improving in husbandry techniques as more is learned about the animals we keep. If it were true that we are already doing a better job than nature does, then there would be nothing to learn or improve upon would there ?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

ratboy said:


> I am not saying we should introduce things that are obviously detrimental to the health of our animals Si.
> 
> Yes we have removed the dangers that immediately surround them. But we have also removed other less noticable things too and I don't think anybody really knows what effect the absence of these things or changes that we enforce in their natural behaviour have on them.
> 
> We are in a young hobby that is constantly learning and constantly improving in husbandry techniques as more is learned about the animals we keep. If it were true that we are already doing a better job than nature does, then there would be nothing to learn or improve upon would there ?


oh no, I wasnt meaning that we should or that you were suggesting we should mate.

I was just thinking that by the letter of the law to totally replicate these enviroments we would have to bring in the negatives, because that seems to me the option that the antis are indirectly saying would be better, its hard to put down my view in a way that others will understand as well as I do in my head:lol2:


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> The technology is there if only you embrace it.


I did not say we *could* not do it, I said we *do* not do it.

The majority of young corn snakes in this country for example are kept in a plastic tub with a heat mat under it with a couple of hides and a water bowl.... Just as prescribed by nearly every care sheet in existance.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

People have been keeping reptiles for over a hundered years, back then it was in zoos now its in bedrooms, thanks to the advancements of modern technology, lizards have gone from being a throw away animal that lasted one or two years because they couldnt survive in captivity to a sustainable captive bred animal. The technology and knowledge is there. I urge everyone to use it to enrich your pets lives, to create your own bit of the wild in your bedroom. Dont do your best, do better, look at whats available to you as tools to keep your animals happy. If we were having this conversation 20 years ago I would agree with whats being said but nowadays there is so much choice of products to help recreate the positive and essential aspects of nature. I will never agree that I can not replicate my animals natural requirements and if i ever did feel that way it would be the day i stopped reptile keeping.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

pink said:


> Why not? There are lighting timers so that we dont even have to think about this, in fact exo-terra have just released a light controller that dims striplights, you tell it what time you want dawn and dusk it does the rest for you.
> 
> this still does not allow for natural day lengthening, intensity of the sun at different angles in the sky, light coming at angles not just from overhead etc
> 
> ...



now it sounds like i am a bloody anti lol... i am not.. you all know that.. i just can't stand a blinkered view point.

yes, reptiles do just fine in captivity
yes, captivity is a "kinder" place than the wild, in some respects
yes, nature, and natures way is sometimes cruel and harsh

BUT

there is, to my mind, no point arguing that technology can do a better job than mother nature.. nature, in all her infiinite complexity, will take more than a few bits of kit from habistat, to improve on

N


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

This conversation was about me being picked up for saying that *we could replicate these elements* - not we dont, I am aware that we dont. I am saying we should because we can, it was at that point I started to get shot down in flames for being unrealistic, but I am still waiting for someone to come up with an element of nature that we havent been able to replicate in captivity? I am sure somebody will, but please stick to required elements for healthy reptile keeping, not earthquakes etc etc.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with the provision bit Pink but not the technology.

The problem is that two much technology leaves too much of a gap for things to go wrong.

Take a radiated rat snake for example. This species is prevalent over much of Central Asia. So which climate do I provide for it ? The climate of India, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Myanmar, Borneo or Bangladesh ? ... these are all the natural habitat of this species.

If I get it wrong my snake could develop a respiratory infection from incorrect temperatures or scale rot from it being too damp. 

I think this is a very complicated subject.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Mmm, in my mind, we can not "replicate" anything

we can approximate wild conditions, but we cannot duplicate or replicate them. we cannot identically copy what goes on in the wild, there is far too much variation for us to be able to do this.

thankfully, in most species, this does not matter, but for a few it does.

why, for instance, is the Boelens Python so hard to breed in captivity when other pythons lay eggs at the drop of a hat.. do we know? do we hell.... but i can promise you its to do with the difference between living in the wild and living in captivity

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Jeepers Creepers*

Now this a healthy debate, indeedy.

Are you not glad Vicki John that you raised all this?

I am , for we are now seeing keepers do what they are exceptional at - arguing!

No, but truthfully, we are seeing a very healthy debate,and l would just like to say thanks to you Vicki. We need these little political sparkle to keep our opposition a tad confused.

Rory


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> We need these little political sparkle to keep our opposition a tad confused.
> 
> Rory


:lol2::lol2: Class :lol2::lol2:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

lol... if there was not 200 miles between us right now rory m'dear - i'd be chasing you round the desk thowing envelopes at you... lol..

:Na_Na_Na_Na:

N


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Serious point though Pink... assuming you have all these devices attached to your vivs...

How much does the average setup cost in total ?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I like it when a debate can be just that, without breaking down into personal attacks and slagging matches that happen too often on this forum, healthy debate is good, but really its just civilised arguing:smile:


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

RE Nerys post, 

Lighting etc - is it important to achieve that? if so use more than one type of light set them up in different positions get them controlled by timers, i dont think its that important thats why its not done.

We provide better - incidently, i feed a mix of mice/gerbil/rat/whatever needs killing that week, and i try and feed fresh. i do try and go with what my education tells me, which is that feeding the same type of frozen prey week in week out, is not the best i can do

So you agree with me then? you have looked to nature and replicated it in captivity.

Thermostats - nothing duplicates the wild! sure we can come close, and close is good enough to most reptiles... but to argue we can duplicate or better it is IMO wrong.. most animals ARE happy in the niche we give them, but it does not make it a "better" way to be in all cases..

We generally know the optimum temps for health and breeding, so surely its best just to stay within these limits? 

Rain makers ditto above.. a man made rain maker, will never feel the same as the real thing

Yeah it does, it usually comes on when i am cleaning the terrarium, feels like a very drizzly day. 

Cool Control - ditto above 
depends on how big the fan is that its rigged up to and the size of the enclosure.

thats easy enough to do

*Feeding patterns being replicated* feeding patterns... yes thats a laugh if ever i heard one!!!

which wild snake do you know, who has dinner placed on a mat once every week for him to feed on in peace??? NONE. 

Valid point - you then go on to demonstrate how a more natural pattern can be replicated...

i never feed every 7 days.. i never feed every 10 days. sometimes i feed once a month, sometimes i feed 5 times a month. generally i feed more in late spring/early summer.. i feed less in winter... but snakes (or most other "pet" for that matter) do NOT have clocks and calenders in the wild. they do not, for instance, give a flying flip if you miss "their day" on sunday and feed instead on monday. how many people do i see saying "i am so worried i will be away on sunday and miss 'ickle sids dinner time" je-sus.. ickle sid does not know its sunday!! feed it monday, it will do it no harm... most baby corns can manage a 3 month fast.. most adult royals can manage a 18 month+ fast.. but what do we see? my corn has not eaten for 2 weeks and i am going to force feed it... WHAT? yeah gee THATS natural... NOT...

Highlighting that there is a problem because poeple do not look to replicate the wild, but overall demonsatrating that it is possible to replicate a more "wild" natural feeding pattern.

Technology - technology is not better than what nature herself has in place... 

No you are quite right, we should look to nature after all thats what created our pets in the first place, look at how nature looks after our pets in the wild and try to duplicate it. And my personal opinion is that we are able to recreate the aspects of nature that are essential for our pets well being in captivity. if we were not then they would not thrive. wether or not people do this is not what i am discussing, i am saying they can and they should.

now it sounds like i am a bloody anti lol... i am not.. you all know that.. i just can't stand a blinkered view point. -Still dont see whats blinkered by my view?

yes, reptiles do just fine in captivity - 
Agreed
yes, captivity is a "kinder" place than the wild, in some respects
Agreed

yes, nature, and natures way is sometimes cruel and harsh
Agreed

BUT

there is, to my mind, no point arguing that technology can do a better job than mother nature.. nature, in all her infiinite complexity, will take more than a few bits of kit from habistat, to improve on

Agreed - this is how i should word it, I think that for _certain_ species we can, i am going to switch from using the word replicate as that would assume a carbon copy - we can "take" the best elements of nature put them in a viv and create a "better" enviroment for _certain _species. and i will use crested geckos as an example.


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

I did not mean to create an argument. I ve often asked about stress in captives and some people say that they are not smart enough. An organism does not have to be smart to feel stress , pain etc. just my thoughts .


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

pink said:


> i will use crested geckos as an example.


you know, i used them too  to people like the rspca when they were round the other day and so on... always a good story..

BUT still so much to learn about them

i give mine UV... not all do... but imho it better for them that way.. many care sheets though, do not advise you should.. why is this?

a nocturnal gecko hidden in the leaves, still gets an amount of UV.. so i provide it in captivity, i have seen them bask under it, i have also seen their skin change colour from where they are under it to not under it.. this suggesting to me that their skin is UV sensitive.. and if they did not use it somehow, why would it be??

but yes.. not a bad example.. 15 years ago thought to be extinct, now bloody loads of them about.. all down to captive keeping..

as i said, i am not against captive keeping, i just think we need to be careful about boasting we can do it better than nature..

N


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

ratboy said:


> Serious point though Pink... assuming you have all these devices attached to your vivs...
> 
> How much does the average setup cost in total ?


as an example a dart frog enclosure is about £700 using all the latest gear (including frogs!), Chameleons with heating that has a night time drop, lighting on a timer in an arboreal viv, approx £300. But I believe that if you are gonna keep these things youve gotta provide the best. I really dont like it when people buy half a set up and say i will get the other bits later. 

On the rat snake situation, you need to look at your particular species what one of those ranges is it most prevalent, workout if its defo your species in that area and try and create the best enviroment. I think a great under used source of info is scientific journals! Rarely bother with the tried and tested care sheets, when there are scientific organisations posting their studies of wild habitats on the net. Just type in the latin name into google go about 30 pages deep into the search,look for a really obscure titled link usually with a pdf attahced and thats a good way to find scientific studies into animals natural habitats. - that was a bit off topic i know!


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Si

i guess its a question of who the debate is with... if you are debating with children, you debate like a child... as sometimes they can not understand any other level... my teatree loving friend is a good example of that (think about it!) again too, if the subject matter is banial, such is the subsequent debate..

N


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

vikki_john said:


> I did not mean to create an argument. I ve often asked about stress in captives and some people say that they are not smart enough. An organism does not have to be smart to feel stress , pain etc. just my thoughts .


I dont think its an argument? I am just stating my case as are the others, i think its more of a debate. My opinion on stress in captives is that stressed animals do not fare well, they lead short lives and they fail to reproduce. So thankfully by natural selection any animal not suited to life in vivaria will not make it through to captive breeding and will remain wild, This is as long as the pet shops only purchase captive bred stock and stay away from the wild caught stuff - which most shops are doing now anyway.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Nerys said:


> Si
> 
> i guess its a question of who the debate is with... if you are debating with children, you debate like a child... as sometimes they can not understand any other level... my teatree loving friend is a good example of that (think about it!) again too, if the subject matter is banial, such is the subsequent debate..
> 
> N


that went right over my head, if it was a dig at me? could it be more specific?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Vicki*

Don't panic, this is as said a healthy debate, and as Si has said, civilised argumentative talk.

Good for the blood.

R


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> On the rat snake situation, you need to look at your particular species what one of those ranges is it most prevalent, workout if its defo your species in that area and try and create the best enviroment. I think a great under used source of info is scientific journals! Rarely bother with the tried and tested care sheets, when there are scientific organisations posting their studies of wild habitats on the net. Just type in the latin name into google go about 30 pages deep into the search,look for a really obscure titled link usually with a pdf attahced and thats a good way to find scientific studies into animals natural habitats. - that was a bit off topic i know!


ummmmmm yes... I did all that  I do it for every species I keep. 

The question is not which one is it most prevalent in, it is surely which one did the WC ancestors of your snake originate from... almost impossible to find out in a lot of cases but more and more rat snake breeders are breeding locale specific animals so you can be sure of exactly where they originate from and therefore supply the correct captive conditions. It's not really any good supplying a Vietnamese climate because that is the country that most _Coelegnathus radiatus_ are found if the parents or grandparents of yours originate from Nepal.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

pink said:


> that went right over my head, if it was a dig at me? could it be more specific?


Trust me thats not a dig at you.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

well surely if they are so many generations CB that you dont know the WC origin, you need to replicate what their parents had, as this would be assuming that their parents had the optimium conditions to allow them to breed? We are going even more off topic now.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

pink said:


> that went right over my head, if it was a dig at me? could it be more specific?


na it wasnt a dig at you


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> as an example a dart frog enclosure is about £700 using all the latest gear (including frogs!), Chameleons with heating that has a night time drop, lighting on a timer in an arboreal viv, approx £300. But I believe that if you are gonna keep these things youve gotta provide the best. I really dont like it when people buy half a set up and say i will get the other bits later.


OK... but in reality how many people are going to pay out £700 to keep a £30 animal. I am in agreement with you, they should. But I am also a realist and know that they wont.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

nah mate.. if i was making a dig at you, you would know about it lol...



N


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

> It's not really any good supplying a Vietnamese climate because that is the country that most _Coelegnathus radiatus_ are found if the parents or grandparents of yours originate from Nepal.


which is why i said make sure its defo. your species assuming that the vietnemese and Nepal are different sub species? I am showing my ignorance on rat snakes now i know. Basically what I am trying to say is that all keepers - not you in general - should research research research their species, which will lead to them (back on topic) giving them a healthy natural enviroment.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> well surely if they are so many generations CB that you dont know the WC origin, you need to replicate what their parents had, as this would be assuming that their parents had the optimium conditions to allow them to breed? We are going even more off topic now.


It's not that far off topic. The debate is about replicating wild conditions. My point is that sometimes it is impossible to know which conditions you should be replicating.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

pink said:


> which is why i said make sure its defo. your species assuming that the vietnemese and Nepal are different sub species?


No they are the same species they just have a huge range... which is why I chose them for my point


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

ratboy said:


> OK... but in reality how many people are going to pay out £700 to keep a £30 animal. I am in agreement with you, they should. But I am also a realist and know that they wont.


well this is where reptile shops need to step in and if a potential purchaser is not prepared to purchase the equipment to satisfy the AWA then they shouldnt sell the animal. This doesnt involve buying £££ of equipment, but there is a big shift in attitudes towards keeping reptiles at the moment, I would compare it to the marine fish keepers, ££££ of equipment to keep an £50 fish. We are starting to see it now with reptiles, consumers are willing to part with £££ have the best set up for their childrens bearded dragon. they dont want it in a box inteh corner they want big bright natural displays and in this credit society money isnt too much of a problem.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

ratboy said:


> No they are the same species they just have a huge range... which is why I chose them for my point


RATBOY 1 - PINK 0

fair point, again it all comes down to research.


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## shiva&kaa123 (Jul 20, 2007)

'Most are carnivorous' I like this bit on the snake section!-Yeah, you guys really know what you're taling about!:lol2:
Ben


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

My first respnse to reading vickies first post was the same as Pink's.. and its not abad comment, vicky did not go on to express any in depth or valid reasoning behind the comment and as such a simpel "why do you keep them then?" is fair, and if answered.. [which it wasnt] would have informed us all of the ins and outs of the posters opinion.

instead... it was left to pink to justify her comments, which i think is terrible personally.

ill hold my tongue so as to never use the terms "replicate" in the company of you guys thats for sure, I will also not bother relating any of my husbandry methods and reasoning based on what i believe they arue evolved to from thier wild enviroment.. instead... I suppose.. "its what the care sheet said" would be a safer statement.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> I will also not bother relating any of my husbandry methods and reasoning based on what i believe they arue evolved to from thier wild enviroment..


Why ?

If you read my posts you will see that I agree with this... animals have adapted to captivity remarkably well.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

yus... most people "accept" that a pet dog is not kept how it would be in the wild, and copes just fine in captivity..

i understand that i can not replicate the wild, but i also understand that most animals do not need the wild to be replicated to be content.

not all (as in my example of the boelens) but an awful lot of reptiles do horribly well in the most basic set ups.. look at NERD's python facility for instance.. that hardly replicates the wild, but my god it gives them results..


is that wrong? that they keep them in plastic boxes on paper with a dish of water and basic hide? more importantly, does the snake think its "wrong" ? if the snake didn't like it, would it eat and breed?? do some (anti's) place to much credit on how they think the snake would think? do we/they humanise the animal too much. a snake does not *think* "oh i really wish i was living in a jungle, instead of this vivarium" that level of "thinking" is a human concept, not an animals. 

i don't think its right to say we can replicate the wild in a viv, but i also don't think we always need to do this to make the animal feel comfortable. as said before, the wild can be a harsh place at times. we keep rabbits in hutches, birds in aviarys, and snakes in vivs. few of those are anything like the "wild" they would come from, but it does not stop the animals inside from being able to lead perfectly healthy lives.

N


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Taken to the logical extreams, should we all be living in caves and dragging our women round by the hair?

Lets face it a nice central heated house is not natural, nor is it benificial to our world, but we cope fine with it.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Taken to the logical extreams, should we all be living in caves and dragging our women round by the hair?
> 
> Lets face it a nice central heated house is not natural, nor is it benificial to our world, but we cope fine with it.


 
thats exactly what I said at the start of the thread, its true though I recon


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

opps, must have missed that ! sorry..

but i dont agree with the smelly lion cloths tho !! hehe


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> opps, must have missed that ! sorry..
> 
> but i dont agree with the smelly lion cloths tho !! hehe


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

lion cloths eh! do they roar when you run :lol2:

N


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

more of a stifled nasaly grunt


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Nerys said:


> lion cloths eh! do they roar when you run :lol2:
> 
> N


Depends whos doing the wearing and whos doing the chasing !


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

*grins*

N


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## 1949_sam (Jan 21, 2007)

ratboy said:


> OK... but in reality how many people are going to pay out £700 to keep a £30 animal. I am in agreement with you, they should. But I am also a realist and know that they wont.


I would if i new what i need to make them feel more at home but thats not always a good thing so i've heard



ratboy said:


> It's not that far off topic. The debate is about replicating wild conditions. My point is that sometimes it is impossible to know which conditions you should be replicating.


Thats how i feel as some peoples set ups are out of this world as in there wicked but are they right?



purejurrasic said:


> Taken to the logical extreams, should we all be living in caves and dragging our women round by the hair?
> 
> Lets face it a nice central heated house is not natural, nor is it benificial to our world, but we cope fine with it.


Good point as i wouldn't be abel to live without all the things i have now as this is my life now.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

1949_sam said:


> I would if i new what i need to make them feel more at home but thats not always a good thing so i've heard


If you can find a shop that could talk me into parting with £700 to keep a frog Sam... I'll give you the money


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## 1949_sam (Jan 21, 2007)

ratboy said:


> If you can find a shop that could talk me into parting with £700 to keep a frog Sam... I'll give you the money


Everyone has a differnt view tho and i would pay but thats just me hey


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