# Why do people hate wing clipping so much?



## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

I've always seen like, people asking about wing clipping and always treading carefully saying that they don't want an argument to start? I don't want to start an argument, but i'm just wondering, what are the reasons for NOT accepting wing clipping? What's so bad about it? 

Again, i'm not trying to start an argument, haha i'm just curious as to peoples opinions on it. 

I was thinking of getting my Kai's wings clipped whilst I train her up a bit more but I don't want to do it if there is a genuine reason I shouldn't. ???

Thanks =)

xXx


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

I clip all 84 chickens' wings and the muscovy duck.

Because the moment they fly over into nextdoors garden, they would be ripped apart by their 2 Jack Russells.


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## tomsam (Sep 26, 2009)

we clip our little birds wings coz if someone left a door open and she got out i would never forgive myself.how do you tell a 3 year old the bird has got out and been ripped apart.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

We clip all or chickens and ducks wings at the sanctuary as if they fly over the boundary fence they risk being fox food

I think with cage birds it means that they crash land on the keel bone and can injure themselves, which is why some people dont like it(could be wrong though)


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Colin posted something to think about a while ago with wing clipping..


Zoo-Man said:


> Because I think wing-clipping is a selfish unnecessary act. It lures owners into a false sense of security, as they think the parrot will not/can not fly away (in fact, most parrots that escape were clipped birds!). It results in many problems in parrots, including feather plucking, aggression, lack of confidence, & broken breast bones from crashing to the ground. Taking away the one thing that makes birds so different to us is, in my eyes, vile.


: victory:


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

If done correctly wing clipping should allow the bird a safe and steady decent to the floor (NOT a crash landing). What it doesnt do is allow the bird to fly up and away. Clipping one wing only is reccommended.

Personally i have no issue with it. A tame pet bird with a clipped wing can, if trained and its safe to do so, enjoy a nice sunny day in the garden with you or not be caged all day if you wish to have patio doors open (under supervision of course)

As has been previously said, to clip chicken and ducks wings is often used as a safety proceedure to ensure thy cant go to undesirable areas (like a garden with two jack russels)


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*wing clipping*

I don't like it.I think it's alright as a training aid on a temporary basis but it's a natural instinct to fly and if alarmed they still attempt it and crash to the ground.Why wouldn't you want your bird to fly,they love to fly,its what wings are for and I think its a basic right.I have my parrots out early evening,doors and windows shut and they have numerous landing spots.Birds in cages are deprived of so much,why take away another freedom.Not including poultry in that opinion,they aren't exactly graced with the flying skills of cage birds and can have a happy and fulfilled free ish life without flying doing most of the things that nature intended.I think permanent wing clipping of cage birds is cruel but I respect the fact that others have a differing opinion.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm against.

Fish swim
Mammals walk
BIRDS FLY.

Marina


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

the other main reason is that if done to young then the muscles will not develope properly and the bird may never fly it should not realy be done till the birds are older well in parkeets and parrots anyway


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I bought my parrot clipped, she had been clipped for 3 years. I let her fly freely myself, she lived indoors, she wasn't allowed out in the same room as the dog, but she only flew if absolutely forced to, even with her full wings, she would walk across the floor and pull herself up by the beak and unless you actually forced her to, she never chose to fly, as if she simply didn't realise she ever could, which made me quite sad, but I left her to it as after being clipped her whole life she seemed fairly happy walking/hopping around.

She died at age 5 of a massive heart attack due to undeveloped heart muscles - I had a post mortem done, as she was meant to live to 50, and I had no clue what could have gone wrong. I was told that it was not uncommon in birds her size that had limited exercise to develop heart problems that would significantly limit their lifespans. Obviously flying is probably the best form of exercise for any bird that would naturally spend a lot of time in the air, developing the lungs & heart through blood flow and using muscles they wouldn't usually use when walking perhaps.

I'm not saying all clipped birds are bad, I'm sure many people do try to offer as much exercise as possible, but if clipping goes hand in hand with a lack of exercise, people simply aren't told that serious and permanent medical problems can occur.

Having experienced such a massively devestating loss to myself of a bonded companion parrot, I would never advocate clipping an indoor bird. I can understand the need for birds that are free in a yard and could endanger themselves, but I just don't see the reasons for indoor birds to be clipped.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

Athravan said:


> I bought my parrot clipped, she had been clipped for 3 years. I let her fly freely myself, she lived indoors, she wasn't allowed out in the same room as the dog, but she only flew if absolutely forced to, even with her full wings, she would walk across the floor and pull herself up by the beak and unless you actually forced her to, she never chose to fly, as if she simply didn't realise she ever could, which made me quite sad,


I have one who came with clipped wings,I have let them grow but 16 years of wing clipping has made him unable to fly.He was hand reared and robbed of not only parents/other birds but the power of flight.It makes me angry.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

nothing wrong with proper wing clipping...


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*wing clipping*



HABU said:


> nothing wrong with proper wing clipping...


based on other threads I think you may be suffering from an illness similar to ocd.It's occod obessive compulsive chopping off disease:whistling2:


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

sarahc said:


> based on other threads I think you may be suffering from an illness similar to ocd.It's occod obessive compulsive chopping off disease:whistling2:


 
:lol2::lol2::lol2:
Sorry habu but that did make me :lol2:


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## carlycharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

HABU said:


> nothing wrong with proper wing clipping...


 
............and what exactly IS a proper clip??

Done incorrectly it can cause long term problems - including they may never grow back or prompt a bird to start plucking or create phsycological issues. I have even seen butchered wings on parrots who were taken to a vet to be clipped so its certainly something that needs doing correctly - whatever that is - oh let me think, DONT do it :whistling2::lol2:

Clipping is much more popular in the USA than in the UK for some reason.


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

Marinam2 said:


> I'm against.
> 
> Fish swim
> Mammals walk
> ...


This is why I don't think I could ever bring myself to have a bird. I love the thought of a small parrot but I just wouldn't feel comfortable restricting an animal designed to travel such huge distances and have the freedom to go pretty much anywhere it likes. Dogs can be walked, rats can have huge cages and be free ranged but having a bird just doesn't quite sit right with me. I don't think any less of people who do keep birds but I personally can't get my head around it. So no, if I did keep birds, I probably wouldn't wing clip from an ethical point of view (although I'd consider it to keep them safe if they were free range outdoor birds).


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## hedgehog738 (Oct 6, 2009)

i dont like birds with wings clipped, if you want a small pet that doesne fly, why not get a hamster or a rat. my budgie doesnt have its wings clipped, but if there are children around the house that might open a door or a window then i see your point, im the youngest in my house at 14 and its my budgie so i wont forget but my sister opend a window and my last budgie got out. she is 17 . its just that most birds are made to fly so i think they should be able too. but i suppose if you have a reason for them been clipped then i think its ok.


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## hedgehog738 (Oct 6, 2009)

Marinam2 said:


> I'm against.
> 
> Fish swim
> Mammals walk
> ...


not all birds fly:Na_Na_Na_Na: 
not all mammals walk


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## tomsam (Sep 26, 2009)

if done properly they can still fly as my girl can and has never hurt herself. and yes doors are shut but hey i have young kids who run in and out when they can. and just one more thing just coz i clip my birds wings does not make me a bad person. i take it no one who made their comments have any animals coz how crawl is that,or maybe they are all running wild around your homes


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks for the quote Meg hun : victory:

Wing-clipping an animal as intelligent as a parrot, which is proven to cause physchological damage, as well as probable physical damage, is in my opinion, cruel & needless. If I had a pet Chimpanzee chained to the side of a cage so it couldn't escape, I would be called cruel & prosecuted. Same difference in my eyes.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

I have kept birds all my life and never wing clipped any of them. I too had a child and simply put, if it was the sort of weather which meant that he was running in and out of the house, the birds were left in their cages until his bedtime and only then let out and only then after I'd made sure windows were closed. In all my years I have never lost a bird. Wing clipping is simply the lazy way to keep your bird where you want it.It is as cruel to deprive a bird of flight as it would be to tie your dogs legs together to prevent it from running out onto the road, instead of fencing your garden and telling your children to close the gate after them.
What is it about modern children that they seem unable to respond to "close the door, the bird is out"?:bash:


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## pink lady (Jul 2, 2008)

:2thumb:when i was still at school (10years ago lol) my mum loved her birds, cockatiels, budgies, parrots, the lot, she bought a bird from a pet shop near where we lived, and the owner of the pet shop (if i remember correctly used to offer to clip the birds wings, think he used to try and talk people round, saying its got benefits of the bird not flying away and all the other crap he said) she had a bird what had its wings clipped, but me and my mum found that so cruel, u could see the bird flaping his wings on top of his cage wishing to fly, so that was the one and only time, if im right in thinking there wings grow back?? well i think its so unfair, its there right to fly, the same as it is ours to walk, all you have to do is keep the doors and windows shut if u want to let them out, its just common sense


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

I've nothing wrong with clipping poultry/waterfowls wings in some cicumstances, I have done it myself on my new birds to ensure they get used to there surrounding and where they live until they are settlindown.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

This is a good discussion and although its dissapointing with some being abusive (you know who you are and you are pathetic) its good to hear other peoples opinions on wing clipping so thank you.

I spent my late teens/ college years working in a pet shop that specialized in parrots and wing clipping was the norm. We had a lot of our hand reared birds out on big stands so they could be with each other and not be restricted to a cage and so they could interact with visitors but still safely get away and out of reach if they so wished (my favourite was telling the kids they couldnt touch them .. im not a fan of kids so was a great part of my job, lol)
Wing clipping meant they had more freedom and were still easy to catch of an evening.
The way we clipped the wings meant they grew out in the next moult which gave us and new owners the option of either clipping again or letting them grow back and be fully flying.

My much loved senegal parrot was clipped when i got her, she was tame but the clipping meant we spent time bonding in and outside which she thrived on. After a while she moulted her feathers and i didnt clip again, she enjoyed flight and would fly to my hand/ head/ shoulder but sadly no longer enjoyed time out in the garden which was her favourite thing during the summer. I would never have taken that risk.

I think clipping has its place but i dont think its a long term solution (unless poultry)
We cage these birds that people so passionatley think should be allowed full wings so they can fly but surely keeping an animal in a cage that is often too small to allow full flight is also just as cruel? Climbing is also a very important part of a parrots life (there feet and beaks are designed for it) so surely good stimulation/ interaction, a quality variety of foods and toys is more of a priority than keeping a birds wings unclipped!


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## Sarah-Jayne (Jul 4, 2007)

I am totally against wing clipping, it is unfair and uncessary.

I have a conure and I would never ever get his wings clipped, its quite simple, if the door or windows are open he is in his cage. They are mean't to fly and that is the way it should be. It would be like someone breaking our legs so we couldn't run away (minus the pain - although I am sure if you cut the wings wrong it would cause pain).


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

Antw23uk said:


> We cage these birds that people so passionatley think should be allowed full wings so they can fly but surely keeping an animal in a cage that is often too small to allow full flight is also just as cruel?


This is why I can't get my head around having a bird. I would never be happy with its flight cage, they can move so far so quickly that it would need to be massive to allow a nice satisfying flight. It makes me really uncomfortable seeing budgie cages and things, they always seem so tiny. An animal prevented from performing natural behaviours gets stressed which is a scientific fact (as in it has been studied and documented); a bird prevented from flight is therefore stressed. Plus the whole point of pets for me is to watch them potter about just doing what they're designed to do, a caged bird just doesn't get that luxury though (I'm all for rescue birds though, that bird is already alive and deserves the best chance it can).


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> I've nothing wrong with clipping poultry/waterfowls wings in some cicumstances, I have done it myself on my new birds to ensure they get used to there surrounding and where they live until they are settlindown.


But poultry aren't build for flight and don't fly normally. Even waterfowl which can fly, don't use flight as theitr main means of getting about. Parakeets are arrow shaped for a reason. Nature designed them to be aerodynamic and to prevent them being able to do what nature intended is selfish IMO.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

cpiggott22 said:


> This is why I can't get my head around having a bird. I would never be happy with its flight cage, they can move so far so quickly that it would need to be massive to allow a nice satisfying flight. It makes me really uncomfortable seeing budgie cages and things, they always seem so tiny. An animal prevented from performing natural behaviours gets stressed which is a scientific fact (as in it has been studied and documented); a bird prevented from flight is therefore stressed. Plus the whole point of pets for me is to watch them potter about just doing what they're designed to do, a caged bird just doesn't get that luxury though (I'm all for rescue birds though, that bird is already alive and deserves the best chance it can).


 
:notworthy: totally agree. I too cannot get my head around having a beautiful great parrot (or whatever) sat in a cage for hour upon hour each day. If say you had something the size of a little Wren and had 20 odd feet of cage or whatever to fly in it and it has the choise to sit or fly all day every day that to me would seem fine cos the bird is able to fly about when he feels like it - from what I know of birds that people have they live in cages for hours a day and have a fly about a bit for a few hours of an evening - is this presumption correct or have I missed something?

I can see the sense in clipping fowl etc., they arent exactly wonderful flyers anyway are they but to clip a little budgie or parrots wings to me seems totally immoral and unethical 

I know absolutely nothing about birds but have found the majority of this a really interesting read and have learnt a few new things :2thumb:


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

Mrs Mental said:


> :notworthy: totally agree. I too cannot get my head around having a beautiful great parrot (or whatever) sat in a cage for hour upon hour each day. If say you had something the size of a little Wren and had 20 odd feet of cage or whatever to fly in it and it has the choise to sit or fly all day every day that to me would seem fine cos the bird is able to fly about when he feels like it - from what I know of birds that people have they live in cages for hours a day and have a fly about a bit for a few hours of an evening - is this presumption correct or have I missed something?
> 
> I can see the sense in clipping fowl etc., they arent exactly wonderful flyers anyway are they but to clip a little budgie or parrots wings to me seems totally immoral and unethical
> 
> I know absolutely nothing about birds but have found the majority of this a really interesting read and have learnt a few new things :2thumb:


Yay, I've never gotten a bow before!! So :notworthy: to you too for making me feel like I'm not spouting poo. I get told I'm too soft fairly often so it's nice to know I'm not the only one. Animals which I keep for my own enjoyment deserve to be as comfortable as I can possibly make them, they didn't ask to be caged. I simply don't feel I could provide a natural (and therefore large) enough environment for a bird which is designed to fly regularly and over large distances (so I'm excluding chickens and the suchlike who would only fly to get over a fence and eaten by foxes).


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

cpiggott22 said:


> (so I'm excluding chickens and the suchlike who would only fly to get over a fence and eaten by foxes).


as opposed to sitting in their garden unable to fly out of the way of a fox which comes in?


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*captive parrots*



Mrs Mental said:


> :notworthy: totally agree. I too cannot get my head around having a beautiful great parrot (or whatever) sat in a cage for hour upon hour each day. If say you had something the size of a little Wren and had 20 odd feet of cage or whatever to fly in it and it has the choise to sit or fly all day every day that to me would seem fine cos the bird is able to fly about when he feels like it - from what I know of birds that people have they live in cages for hours a day and have a fly about a bit for a few hours of an evening - is this presumption correct or have I missed something?


Your presumption is correct in general.Most people can't provide a good standard of life for a parrot.I include myself in that.I do try and my birds are all second hand ones.I think there must be loads of parrots out there existing at best and lots more suffering horribly.Where do all the h/r birds go.Its a hidden problem.I still don't agree with wing clipping though.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> as opposed to sitting in their garden unable to fly out of the way of a fox which comes in?


I was presuming that the chickens were fenced in an enclosure so they couldnt get out and the fox couldnt get in - would that not be the case?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Mrs Mental said:


> I was presuming that the chickens were fenced in an enclosure so they couldnt get out and the fox couldnt get in - would that not be the case?


 Not necessarily. Foxes can dig under fences or jump over. Chainlink gets climbed.
Chickens allowed to free range will alsways be vulnerable to fox attacks. I suppose the solution would be to keep them in a small totally enclosed run area but that's fine for people with a few pet garden chickens and not for someone with a sizeable flock after all.
They'd have more chance to escape a predator if they were able to fly up and out of reach, or flap and flutter to escape, than sitting there like easy targets, unable to flee.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Not necessarily. Foxes can dig under fences or jump over. Chainlink gets climbed.
> Chickens allowed to free range will alsways be vulnerable to fox attacks. I suppose the solution would be to keep them in a small totally enclosed run area but that's fine for people with a few pet garden chickens and not for someone with a sizeable flock after all.
> They'd have more chance to escape a predator if they were able to fly up and out of reach, or flap and flutter to escape, than sitting there like easy targets, unable to flee.


 
I wasn't sure about foxes climbing or digging under.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

carlycharlie said:


> ............and what exactly IS a proper clip??
> 
> Done incorrectly it can cause long term problems - including they may never grow back or prompt a bird to start plucking or create phsycological issues. I have even seen butchered wings on parrots who were taken to a vet to be clipped so its certainly something that needs doing correctly - whatever that is - oh let me think, DONT do it :whistling2::lol2:
> 
> Clipping is much more popular in the USA than in the UK for some reason.


 
it just takes away some of their flying ability... yes, anything done incorrectly can caused damage... chainsaws don't work well for one thing...


peaches and rose are both kept clipped...

i hear having birds in captivity can cause long term damage by your very own logic...

therefore,....:whistling2:


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Not necessarily. Foxes can dig under fences or jump over. Chainlink gets climbed.
> Chickens allowed to free range will alsways be vulnerable to fox attacks. I suppose the solution would be to keep them in a small totally enclosed run area but that's fine for people with a few pet garden chickens and not for someone with a sizeable flock after all.
> They'd have more chance to escape a predator if they were able to fly up and out of reach, or flap and flutter to escape, than sitting there like easy targets, unable to flee.


 
That may be the case but it doesnt stop me feeling sorry for a beautiful parrot in a cage, with the ability to fly but not being able to hop more than 3 foot wothout hitting the bars


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## marie_k (Apr 21, 2006)

We don't wing clip for several reasons:
Birds need flight for exercise and normal cardiovascular function. It is also well appreciated that activity leads to endorphin release leading to a happier bird! Obesity is a common problem in birds, exacerbated by standard high fat diets and inactivity.
Rendering a bird flightless has psychological impact. Flight is a natural defence mechanism - a bird that knows it cannot escape a predator (even if a predator isn't present) will be more stressed. Birds may resort to altered behaviour to compensate - aggression or seclusion typically. Even minor noises/movements can be perceived as a threat in this hyper-stressed state and chronic stress leads to immune suppression and potential opportunistic infections.
Feathers are not removed, they must be cut to prevent immediate regrowth, leaving stumps. These abnormal stumps can be irritating and rub against the body and can also stimulate abnormal preening. Feather plucking is a common seuqel when preening intensifies.
Birds will still attempt flight if newly clipped/startled. This leads to crash landing and injuries. Clipping one wing is even worse than both- they end up in a rapid downward spiral with no control at all.
Birds are unable to escape threats and risk injury from children/other animals.
The vast majority of owners we see consider their birds important enough to change their attitudes and routine to ensure their wellbeing and safety so why should others be able to neglect this?

Wing clipping is thought of as a short cut to avoid training and security measures but encourages complacency - 50% of escaped birds are wing clipped so is there really a great advantage?
It is argued that wing clipping is actually illegal now. Animal welfare legislation states that normal behaviour should be able to be expressed. What bird behaviour is more natural than flight?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

nothing like seeing your $10,000 bird headed southbound down the highway because it could...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

soon everything will be illegal in the u.k. it seems..

clipped birds can still fly... and get a big workout trying...


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Not necessarily. Foxes can dig under fences or jump over. Chainlink gets climbed.
> Chickens allowed to free range will alsways be vulnerable to fox attacks. I suppose the solution would be to keep them in a small totally enclosed run area but that's fine for people with a few pet garden chickens and not for someone with a sizeable flock after all.
> They'd have more chance to escape a predator if they were able to fly up and out of reach, or flap and flutter to escape, than sitting there like easy targets, unable to flee.


I know naff-all about poultry and things so I only added that in as I can see a valid reason for clipping certain outdoor birds who aren't strong flyers (fliers??) anyway. But really, I don't keep farm birds and probably won't for many many years so I'll leave that judgement up to those with more experience. I was just expressing my personal opinion on stronger flyers really. I can see that in a large free range setup, flapping away from foxes is probably the best way of staying alive. So at the mo it seems I'm against all forms of wing clipping (I'm certain I read some valid arguments earlier on but I can't for the life of me remember them).


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## Mrs Meldrew (Oct 5, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Wing-clipping an animal as intelligent as a parrot, which is proven to cause physchological damage, as well as probable physical damage, is in my opinion, cruel & needless. If I had a pet Chimpanzee chained to the side of a cage so it couldn't escape, I would be called cruel & prosecuted. Same difference in my eyes.


I agree completely..... 



HABU said:


> clipped birds can still fly... and get a big workout trying...


That is quite simply the most stupid and thoughtless comment I have read on this thread....

and from someone I considered intelligent....

Show's how wrong my judgement can be...

Hope that was polite enough... when all I wanted to type was....

:bash: ARSE !!!! :bash:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you people are impossible.

go ride off on your unicorns and talk to the butterflies...

one day you'll ban yourselves out of keeping any animals altogether...


i'd put peaches and rose up against anybody's bird... psychologically and take offense at you calling me cruel..

a couple flight feathers is going to destroy a bird... christ.

what birds do you all keep anyway?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i hope that big picture blows your monitor up too!:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## marie_k (Apr 21, 2006)

HABU said:


> nothing like seeing your $10,000 bird headed southbound down the highway because it could...


If the cost of replacing you bird is your main consideration then perhaps that explains you difference in opinion.



HABU said:


> soon everything will be illegal in the u.k. it seems..
> 
> clipped birds can still fly... and get a big workout trying...


It depends on the clip technique, bird's fitness level and remaining feather quality- the whole point of clipping is to restrict flight. At best the bird has very limited flight.



HABU said:


> you people are impossible.
> go ride off on your unicorns and talk to the butterflies...
> one day you'll ban yourselves out of keeping any animals altogether...
> i'd put peaches and rose up against anybody's bird... psychologically and take offense at you calling me cruel..
> ...


I spend most days dealing with birds that have been affected by husbandry, including treating the consequences of wing clipping. Is it so wrong to want to offer the best possible conditions for a bird?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

marie_k said:


> If the cost of replacing you bird is your main consideration then perhaps that explains you difference in opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

no, you deal with idiots...
there have been birds affected by captivity by lots of things... a real keeper would laugh at you for insinuating that they are idiots as most of your clients must be.. they can't even clip wings properly or you are telling them how to do it all wrong..

it's wrong to lump fools and idiots who haven't a clue in with real keepers sister.

best possible conditions?

captivity sure ain't the ideal situation!

i am not responsible for the quality and ignorance of the keepers you deal with...

a couple of freaking flight feathers and you think a bird is going to loose it's mind eh?






























look at the crazy birds i have ruined!!

all those plucked feathers...


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## Mrs Meldrew (Oct 5, 2006)

marie_k said:


> If the cost of replacing you bird is your main consideration then perhaps that explains you difference in opinion.
> 
> 
> I spend most days dealing with birds that have been affected by husbandry, including treating the consequences of wing clipping. Is it so wrong to want to offer the best possible conditions for a bird?


Well said....


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## Mrs Meldrew (Oct 5, 2006)

HABU said:


> a couple of freaking flight feathers and you think a bird is going to loose it's mind eh?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, depending on the individual bird. 

I would be greatly concerned at the effect of having any of my birds wings clipped. Especially my African Grey.... he really is incredibly intelligent. His life wouldn't be worth living if he couldn't sit ontop of the curtain rail ( the only place where I can't reach him ) and shout abuse at me when I'm trying to put him away....

Part of their daily routine is having time out of their cages and the ability to have a fly about.....

They have wings, they fly... it's natural.


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## marie_k (Apr 21, 2006)

HABU said:


> no, you deal with idiots...
> there have been birds affected by captivity by lots of things... a real keeper would laugh at you for insinuating that they are idiots as most of your clients must be.. they can't even clip wings properly or you are telling them how to do it all wrong..


I have never insinuated that the owners I see are idiots. In fact i know they aren't - they just have never known the full requirements of a bird. Most I see that initially want a wing clip reconsider after being aware of all the considerations and potential concerns. Being able to listen to and objectively consider others' knowledge shows they are far from being idiots. Sadly not all people are capable of this.
I know captivity is not the best situation but what then? Release all the human imprinted birds into British forests? Expect people to stop breeding? Now who is being unrealistic?
I can only try and educate and help to provide the best possible conditions, as I said before.
So your birds have not plucked feathers? A case study of two is not conclusive data! I can detail many dozens that have, along with injuries, deleterious behaviour and multiple other negative effects. just be grateful you have been lucky and do not ridicule those who have other experiences.


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

god all this p:censor: me of. my congo grey has swings hanging from the ceiling his flying is truely amazing, he is fit and i would like to see that americans bird keep up with my bird his birds will suffer in the end!!! to see a birds face when it realises it cant fly must be heart bracking:gasp:


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## Mrs Meldrew (Oct 5, 2006)

53bird said:


> g to see a birds face when it realises it cant fly must be heart breaking:gasp:


Watching mines face when being the complete numpty he is, has flown into a door or wall (again) or had fallen off his perch .... sitting huffing and puffing on the floor until I pick him up and cuddle him... asking himself in a pathetic voice "are you alright Ozwald?"


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

Wing clipping does have its benefits but i personally wouldnt clip my greys wings as it would be deny him his freedom of flight , never kept poultry so cant really comment on that but with parrots i'd say its a bad thing to do


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> BIRDS FLY.
> 
> Marina


Not if it's a.

Ostridge.
Emu.
Rhea.
Cassowarie.
Kiwi.
Flightless cormorent.
Penguin.
Kapapo.
And others.
:lol2:.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

fiona_951 said:


> I've always seen like, people asking about wing clipping and always treading carefully saying that they don't want an argument to start? I don't want to start an argument, but i'm just wondering, what are the reasons for NOT accepting wing clipping? What's so bad about it?
> 
> Again, i'm not trying to start an argument, haha i'm just curious as to peoples opinions on it.
> 
> ...


As far as i know no one really anyone has a problem with clipping poulty(Chicken,Turkey,Duck,Goose'etc).As they tend to stay on the ground anyway so aren't likely to get the lift to do harm.

But when it comes to parrots there more active and find getting to higher ground fairly easy unlikle poulty.Parrots can easy climb and if they take off at a high point they can end up doing harm to them self(wings,Brest bone,Even brake neck).Due to the clipped wing they have less control to maneuver them self.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

a moluccan cockatoo is more like an aircraft flying... like a macaw...

peaches is a happy, well adjusted parrot as is rose the eclectus...

rose doesn't get clipped... only peaches... she prefers to walk anyway...

anyway, i'm not talking about butchering a birds wing all to pieces... just taking away some lift... so she won't knock over funrniture like some airbus jet liner...


like anything, it can be done properly or improperly/stupidly... and it gets my goat when people brand you as some cruel beast for doing something that causes no harm to the animal...

might as well say i'm a mean and cruel parent or something...

key words like 'can' and 'might'... 'could' and 'sometimes' are important...

yes, the way some folks do things, it COULD cause problems...

world class zoos clip routinely... for every vet against something i could easily find one who sees it as harmless when done correctly...


don't scold me.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Molluccan Cockatoos & Eclectus parrots are 2 of the species more prone to feather plucking, so you have been very lucky with yours Habu. 

Seeing the delight that Rosie, my Galah Cockatoo, gets from flying figure of eight circuits around the house & screeching at the top of her voice, it would break my heart to see her unable to do what she was naturally built for & enjoys.

Even Spike, my Black-Headed Caique, ejoys a short lap of the living room. Caiques arent the most agile or graceful flyers, but he still does what nature intended him to do.

And imagine how Lola, my Blue-Fronted Amazon, would look with gaps where her primary feathers should be!









A friend of mine has an adult Blue & Gold Macaw, who is not wing-clipped, & he does not fly. He walks or steps onto his mum's arm to get around. But that is his choice. And I think tha is the kep word here, CHOICE! The parrot should be given a choice of whether to fly or not. We should not make that decision for them.


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Wow, I didn't expect this many responses! I've read ALL OF THEM as well. Haha

Thank you so much everyone for getting me plenty of views on it. 

As I said I was thinking of getting Kai's wing(s) clipped just to stop her flying as much. I was under the impression that the cut flight feathers would grow back? 

The reason I wanted to do it is because i've had her for almost 2 years now and she really doesn't seem to want to be near me EVER. Maybe its choice? Maybe its because she doesn't understand i'm not going to hurt her? SO, I was going to have her wings cut ONCE so that for the period that she was a little unable to fly I could possibly try and build a bond and get her to trust me. I've heard that wing clipping can often get a budgie to rely on you more heavily and thus a strong bond is built. Have I heard right?

SO, yea, I can completely understand why poultry etc may have they're wings clipped, makes sense really. 

AND, I also understand that people may think it is cruel to take away a birds ability to fly, seeing as they are birds. Haha

AND I can also see how some people clip their lovely eclectus and mollucans (Beautiful birds by the way Habu!) if it is not causing any damage to the birds.

But would you see it cruel to only do it once to train/tame a bird? 

I have tried for so long now and she just doesn't seem to be having any of it, so it was really my last resort... Haha 

I really hope no one argues over this =( I'm just looking for general, helpful opinions please. =)

THANKS AGAIN. =D

xXx


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Fiona,
It could only take clipping a parrot's wings once to make it more fearful, less trusting, more agressive, more stressed, more likely to pluck out her own feathers, maybe even tear at her own flesh! 

One of the problems with parrot ownership is that they often do take to one certain person, or only one sex. There isn't that much you can do to remedy this. One thing to try is for YOU to do all the good things to your parrot, all thethings she likes, enjoys & looks forward to, & have the parrot's favourite person do all the things that the parrot doesn't enjoy so much. Hopefully this will help the parrot see you as the giver of good things. Worth a try!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I think one of the main causes of new parrot owners wanting to have theor parrot's wings clipped is because the majority of books about keeping parrots in the household are American, & they almost all recommend wing-clipping. As Ken (CarlyCharlie) said, wing-clipping in America is unfortunately the norm.

ETA: Yes Fiona, wing-clipping should be the cutting of primary flight feathers, which are replaced by new feather growth when the bird moults its feathers next.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's like a haircut... feathers grow back... you just cut a couple flight feathers to take away some of the lift... the birds can still fly just fine... it just takes a bit more effort to do so....

it slows them down and makes flying more strenuous...

that's all... birds lose their flight feathers... you cut a little off and do it so that it's not even apparent unless their wings are fully extended... do just one side usually to throw them off balance...

they go from flying like eagles to more of a chicken...
and to think that a well adjusted parrot with a knowledgeable owner having a couple feathers cut would plunge them into insanity is stupid...

hell, they get jealous if you don't pay enough attention to them... divas many are... cockatoos big time...


got to rub their necks and cuddle them or they throw a fit...

i guess trimming their beaks or clipping their talons would be a stellar way to make them insane...

a good bird trusts you... it's like a three year old in some species...


if snipping a feather or two is cause for fear then i guess you shouldn't even touch them...

stupid so-called experts think two dead feathers being cut makes them psycho cases aren't worth my time...


like cutting hair.... what about when a bird pulls a long flight feather out naturally? it must go into shock!


stupid people don't need to keep parrots...

there are some that cry cruel at every opportunity... they're the ones who propagate this crap... they are the very ones not to listen to... idiots.... bird-wise that is...


you are just making it harder to fly... never cut to the blood... 

those same feathers grow right back... the birds get so routine with it... they even raise their wings to let you cut those feathers after a while...


experts can be stupid too... talking all this garbage... like chicken littles...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> it's like a haircut... feathers grow back... you just cut a couple flight feathers to take away some of the lift... the birds can still fly just fine... it just takes a bit more effort to do so....
> 
> it slows them down and makes flying more strenuous...
> 
> ...


 
Yes, the feathers grow back at the next moult, but that doesn't mean any phsychological damage, or even physical damage, cannot be done in that time. Does tethering a baby Chimpanzee to a cage when it is young for 6 months do it any phsychological damage? I would say hell yes, it does!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Yes, the feathers grow back at the next moult, but that doesn't mean any phsychological damage, or even physical damage, cannot be done in that time. Does tethering a baby Chimpanzee to a cage when it is young for 6 months do it any phsychological damage? I would say hell yes, it does!


 you've been drinking haven't you?

what are you talking about holmes?

you can't cut a feather? 

guess you can't groom a dog either..

go away ... you are making yourself look silly.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> you've been drinking haven't you?
> 
> what are you talking about holmes?
> 
> ...


_I'M_ making _MYSELF_ look silly??? :lol2:

BTW, parrots have claws, not talons! :whistling2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> _I'M_ making _MYSELF_ look silly??? :lol2:
> 
> BTW, parrots have claws, not talons! :whistling2:


 
ha!

that may be the proper nomenclature but they are big as most raptors... you brits with the names... no poisonous snakes either your types like to bicker about...

please... spare me your utter lack of common sense mr. "clip a parrot's wings and it'll go insane" man!

you stand by your judgment that clipping a parrot's wings is cruel and will make a parrot go mad?

do you hotshot?

i'm proof ... 

closed minded waste... you don't have what it takes to be good with critters... oh, i mean animals.. critters is likely an english pastry fool.


go home to mommy where she'll always rub your pathethic belly and tell you how wonderful you are...


please give my my infraction now mods... it's worth it for this fake bird expert...

he's a haint!


know what that means sport?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> ha!
> 
> that may be the proper nomenclature but they are big as most raptors... you brits with the names... no poisonous snakes either your types like to bicker about...
> 
> ...


 
Actually there aren't any poinsonous snakes - there are plenty of VENOMOUS ones though! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I don't have what it takes to be good with animals??? How do you come by that??? I have worked with animals for years, from domestic pet animals to wild zoo animals! I think you are showing your true colours here! 

And I do not have to prove that wing-clipping causes parrots phsychological damage, it is well known in the parrot world & my favourite parrot expert Rosemary Low has writte about it many times, as have other parrot experts such as Liz Wilson.

I suppose we shouldn't be too suprised that someone who thinks its ok to crop dog's ears is also blasee about wing-clipping such intelligent complex animals as parrots!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Actually there aren't any poinsonous snakes - there are plenty of VENOMOUS ones though! :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> I don't have what it takes to be good with animals??? How do you come by that??? I have worked with animals for years, from domestic pet animals to wild zoo animals! I think you are showing your true colours here!
> 
> ...


 
i've worked at a zoo... went to school there too.. but that's just resume...


i cropped my doberman's ears and docked it's tail too...

welcome to america homey...

just cause you do things one way doesn't mean it's the perfect way...

you are indoctrinated...

you should get out more son... see life...

i'm sick of being called cruel for things...

look at you... you don't have the balls to even share your stats... age and such... that's feeble...

are you 60 or 16?

too afraid to share?

THAT TELLS ME THINGS.

how do you manage to get about without a spine anyway?

mr. anonymous?

don't profess anything and hide behind a cloak of anonymity...

children do that mostly... that's why i checked... and baited you..:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> i've worked at a zoo... went to school there too.. but that's just resume...
> 
> 
> i cropped my doberman's ears and docked it's tail too...
> ...


 
Wow your pathetic!

I'm 28 if you must know, not that that has anything to do with this thread at all. Anything else you want to know? Why am I feeble for not saying my age, etc?

And you ARE cruel if you docked your dog's tail & cropped it's ears! To cause unnecessary pain to an animal is CRUEL, plain & simple! 

And thanks for the welcome to America, but I think I'll stay here if you don't mind! I'm currently very busy working on getting wing-clipping parrots made illegal over here! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

ETA: I've filled in your criteria on my profile, just for you!


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## Mrs Meldrew (Oct 5, 2006)

gazz said:


> But when it comes to parrots there more active and find getting to higher ground fairly easy unlikle poulty.Parrots can easy climb and if they take off at a high point they can end up doing harm to them self(wings,Brest bone,Even brake neck).Due to the clipped wing they have less control to maneuver them self.


Exactly...


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Guys, please take the time to calm down, this has obviously touched some sore spots, and I personally have a strong opinion on this too. The OP didn't ask for an argument, she asked why some people hate wing clipping, and those people have a right to respond without childish baiting and name calling and I can see this going downhill. Obviously some people will disagree but you can disagree and put 2 sides of a story across without targetting people personally and trying to upset/goad people.

And I'm sorry Habu, but here in the UK docking a dogs ears and tails IS illegal (tail can be done for working reasons with permission, but not for aesthetics) and WOULD be called cruelty. This is a UK forum and perhaps you will have to simply allow for the fact that our culture is different when it comes to the mutilation (which is what the law defines as any physical aesthetic modifications) of animals. Difference in culture is something we need to understand and work with, not deliberately try to upset people over.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

fiona_951 said:


> Wow, I didn't expect this many responses! I've read ALL OF THEM as well. Haha
> 
> Thank you so much everyone for getting me plenty of views on it.
> 
> ...


I keep birds and in my opinion there are arguments for both sides.

With regards to your budgies (I have 24), and find that the males are much more friendlier than the females. I have 2 very tame males (father and son) and 2 fairly tame ones that are totally unrelated. The very tame male has fathered about 8 babies over the years, but only one of his is tame, although he had other sons, and he is "identical" to his father in looks. I find the females nowhere as friendly and was told by a breeder that this is because their natural instict is to protect their young and they are naturally defensive. I remember when I first got them, I only started with 4, and when I put them into the cage, the 2 males were fine to be handled, one female struggled and the second one bit me, which I was not expecting.

I think taming them is a matter of perserverance and it is disappointing when they don't respond.

I have a Senegal who is as tame as anything with a family member - he came to us with his wings clipped. We had then clipped I think on 2 more occasions, but don't now. However, when he comes out of his cage he makes no real attempts to fly, although he can as he has done.

My African Grey is a rehomed parrot. He is over 20. He is in a very large cage, but sadly has a deformed wing and cannot fly. Having said that, he has a great personality and character, is very talkative and entertaining.

I don't know if these comments are of any help to you, but are just my experiences!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*wing clipping*



fiona_951;54298
But would you see it cruel to only do it once to train/tame a bird?
I have tried for so long now and she just doesn't seem to be having any of it said:


> not if it was going to lead to a lifelong friendship between you and the bird.You may find the stress involved to a bird thats not tame may be a set back in building a realationship.I'm just going to add that although I believe wing clipping to be cruel/unfair,I don't actually think anyone that does do it is motivated by cruelty.I'm sure that its motivated by wanting to do the right thing.The disagreement is just what is the right and wrong thing.I well remember training my beautiful,sensitive german shepherd 'The Woodhouse Way'.My intentions were for the best,and she was indeed well behaved,I now think the methods were not very nice and harsh.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*Taming parrots*

and fiona is there anything that you parrot loves whether it be a toy or food that you could use to attract her to you.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

My hens are clipped, to be honest they still fly.
I agree, wing clipping should only be done properly, but for me, indoor birds have the gift of flight, they should be allowed to fulfil it, to some extent.


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## Alway's Royals & Leo's (May 18, 2009)

*.*

Birds fly.....


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i'm no savage...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Alway's Royals & Leo's said:


> Birds fly.....












???????:lol2:


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

HABU said:


> image
> 
> ???????:lol2:


That would be an interesting sight.


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Cheers again guys!

Uh, yea, she's not really keen on many things at all... Apart from millet and mirrors. I've tried her on SO much and she really isn't an adventurous bird at all. 

I wouldn't consider wing clipping unless I thought that it was the last resort for taming her up a bit.

As said, I would only do it once if I were to do it. She's a very strong bird and I don't think it would do her any psychological damage... 

I think some people on here (sorry i've forgotten names!) are right about the fact I would not be doing with the intention of cruelty and I don't think anyone ever does, people just think its right in some instances...? 

I hope I haven't caused too many arguments, I just want whats best for my baby. Haha

x


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

fiona_951 said:


> Cheers again guys!
> 
> Uh, yea, she's not really keen on many things at all... Apart from millet and mirrors. I've tried her on SO much and she really isn't an adventurous bird at all.
> 
> ...


 
no, bird people are a fickle group... like fish people... everyone thinks the other is wrong, stupid or mean... that's why i rarely fool with bird folks...

some think everything is cruel... they'd have farms closed down if they could... pigs wearing jumpers...


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

HABU said:


> no, bird people are a fickle group... like fish people... everyone thinks the other is wrong, stupid or mean... that's why i rarely fool with bird folks...
> 
> some think everything is cruel... they'd have farms closed down if they could... pigs wearing jumpers...


Reptile people also are a fickle group lol I think all groups are fickle, some people just don't have an open mind I'm afraid.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LiamRatSnake said:


> Reptile people also are a fickle group lol I think all groups are fickle, some people just don't have an open mind I'm afraid.



I don't think it's about having an open mind at all. It's about having an opinion based on research, talking to others with experience on the matter and ones self having experience on the matter. Just because somebody wants a bird that can fly properly doesn't mean they're close minded!


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

i would say having a birds wings cliped just to tame it is crul you would be making the bird like you it cant get away and has no choice somethings that can help take the bird into a room where theres not to many distracsions and just sit with it away from its cage just spend time around it more in places it usaly does not go


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> I don't think it's about having an open mind at all. It's about having an opinion based on research, talking to others with experience on the matter and ones self having experience on the matter. Just because somebody wants a bird that can fly properly doesn't mean they're close minded!


I'm talking in general. Like I said, birds have the gift of flight, they should be allowed to fulfill it. That's just my opinion, on the other hand it doesn't mean I think people who do it are cruel.


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

adamntitch said:


> i would say having a birds wings cliped just to tame it is crul you would be making the bird like you it cant get away and has no choice somethings that can help take the bird into a room where theres not to many distracsions and just sit with it away from its cage just spend time around it more in places it usaly does not go


Thing is, i've tried that, she shows signs of getting used to me and its not as if she's scared of me or anything. She'll quite happily let me get her out of the cage and stuff, I just wanted to tame/train her up a bit more. 

And i'd give her the choice of stepping up onto me even if her wings were clipped, I wouldn't force her... 

I dunno.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

I dont like the idea. If you cant be coping with a full intact bird, then maybe its not the right pet for you.....


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

marie_k said:


> Wing clipping is thought of as a short cut to avoid training and security measures but encourages complacency - *50% of escaped birds are wing clipped* so is there really a great advantage?
> It is argued that wing clipping is actually illegal now. Animal welfare legislation states *that normal behaviour should be able to be expressed*. What bird behaviour is more natural than flight?


Where did that little statistic gem come from?

Normal behaviour expressed? Sorry locked in a cage unable to fly when it wants is acceptable because they 'can' fly if and when they are out ... :whistling2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

birds need to trust you. to a small bird you look like a giant and they often get a complex about hands...

go very, very slow... never push a bird to conform... 

a parrot is usually bought here from a breeder... and you hand raise it.

you become it's momma...

that's the best way... it teaches you as you teach it... getting a grown bird and especially one that has been from an unknown past is a big gamble... it may have been abused and traumatized and can have all sorts of mental issues...

baby steps when taming and acclimating a bird... don't even worry about taming it till it is very used to your place and the people and sounds there...


before peaches arrived there were classes to attend as part of buying her... like adopting a child and going to parenting classes...


but pay no attention to my ramblings... i am a cruel, heartless beast...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Crownan said:


> I dont like the idea. If you cant be coping with a full intact bird, then maybe its not the right pet for you.....


 like having a dog on a leash eh?
if you can't deal with a loose dog then maybe it's not the animal for you... leashes aren't natural...right?

why have a dog's neck tethered?... wolves aren't tethered...


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

HABU said:


> like having a dog on a leash eh?
> if you can't deal with a loose dog then maybe it's not the animal for you... leashes aren't natural...right?
> 
> why have a dog's neck tethered?... wolves aren't tethered...



Thats a good point too. I dont have a dog.... lol

I spose that is a comparable example.....


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

HABU said:


> like having a dog on a leash eh?
> if you can't deal with a loose dog then maybe it's not the animal for you... leashes aren't natural...right?
> 
> why have a dog's neck tethered?... wolves aren't tethered...


There's a massive difference between putting a dog on a leash to restrain it in what could be a dangerous scenario (ie. by busy roads, in the case of Huskies etc not being able to go offlead in most places, and so on), and chopping birds feathers off in what SHOULD be a safe environment.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, what are your reasons for clipping wings?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

this thread is for the birds...


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

HABU said:


> image
> 
> 
> this thread is for the birds...


Awesome species, scary that they've been brought into a wing clipping thread though?!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

have a nice day!

i said good day!:lol2:​


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Just to clarify... 

I ALREADY HAVE A BIRD. I HAVE HAD HER FOR 2 YEARS. SHE KNOWS THE AREA, MY HOUSE, AND THE PEOPLE HERE AND IS HAPPY WITH ALL OF US. SHE GETS TREATED EXTREMELY WELL AND I CAN LOOK AFTER MY BIRD. THANKS.

BUT...

The reason I was pondering clipping one of her wings was because she isn't as tame as I would like her to be, as said smaller birds can sometimes get a complex against human hands and i'd like her to understand that she needs me and to trust me and my hands. I have heard that wing clipping can help gain a birds trust as they have to rely on you more to get the things they want instead of just flying to them.

I have not just chosen to do this straight away, I literally have tried everything else I can think of and have heard of. 

I obviously did not intend it to seem cruel as I am an avid animal lover... I would never do anything for cruelty. 

So yea, just to clarify, I can handle my pet birds and have done already with fully flighted budgies and conures for almost 2 years now. I was just considering another option.


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

On top of this, I did not intend to cut the wings myself, I was going to get an Avian vet to do it. 

And Kairi is the only bird I have considered it with as she is very reluctant to train with me, when all my other birds have been fine with me.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

fiona_951 said:


> On top of this, I did not intend to cut the wings myself, I was going to get an Avian vet to do it.
> 
> And Kairi is the only bird I have considered it with as she is very reluctant to train with me, when all my other birds have been fine with me.


Could you not consider letting her stay as she is, maybe she just doesn't want to be tame? Maybe eventually she will come to you, rather than the other way round?


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## Mrs Meldrew (Oct 5, 2006)

LiamRatSnake said:


> Could you not consider letting her stay as she is, maybe she just doesn't want to be tame? Maybe eventually she will come to you, rather than the other way round?


This is a very good point.


Oz my African Grey came to me as a Re-home.

He was my ideal (much wanted ) parrot.

At first I could do anything with him.... I am still his main carer... I do all of the feeding/cleaning of his cage etc, however he suddenly decided 6 months ago that he loved my Husband who initially was terrified of him.

He is now very nippy with me, on the rare occasion now I get some serious parrot love (only if Hub is not around), but Hub is the one he will cuddle up to and regurgitate bits of pine nuts to...

I am very wary when handling him now, he has bonded with Hub, and that is it... he's a healthy, happy bird and I am just going to have to accept that...

It was his choice....


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Mrs Meldrew said:


> This is a very good point.
> 
> 
> Oz my African Grey came to me as a Re-home.
> ...


I only figured cos people in college would try anything to tame the birds, myself and a friend just spent a lot of time in the room talking to them, spraying them, cleaning them and eventually most of the birds trusted me and my friend only, we ended up with one in particular, a budgie, who would climb all over us and chatter away, when we never tried to tame any of them. We just waited, otherwise we were happy to be around miserable grumpy birds.

I think what I'm getting at, is let her be herself. One day she may surprise you, or she may just be happy how she is.


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## Animal-Encounters (Nov 14, 2009)

fiona_951 said:


> I've always seen like, people asking about wing clipping and always treading carefully saying that they don't want an argument to start? I don't want to start an argument, but i'm just wondering, what are the reasons for NOT accepting wing clipping? What's so bad about it?
> 
> Again, i'm not trying to start an argument, haha i'm just curious as to peoples opinions on it.
> 
> ...


HI, sorry havent read thread as its too long so might be saying something not related now but just wanted to share what i have been told. a good friend of mine who is a major player bird/parrot breeder says that reason so much negativity is about it as if its not done precisely right it can be bad for the bird and very dangerous and all the botch jobs done put it in very bad press.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Animal-Encounters said:


> HI, sorry havent read thread as its too long so might be saying something not related now but just wanted to share what i have been told. a good friend of mine who is a major player bird/parrot breeder says that reason so much negativity is about it as if its not done precisely right it can be bad for the bird and very dangerous and all the botch jobs done put it in very bad press.



oh I hate vague things. Your anonymous friend is presumable all in favour of removing the bird's basic right to fly? Those who are in favour will make all kinds of excuses as to why it's fine to do so. 'precisely right'? 'dangerous'? 'botched'? What do they mean exactly?
Even when done correctly, the aim of doing it is to prevent the bird from flying. Given that nature made them with wings in order to fly, clipping is removing a flighted animal's mean of propulsion.
By the same token, does your friend advocate getting the vet to remove all the teeth on dog's in order to prevent bites? How about amputating legs in order to prevent a dog from running away? or tying you chil'd legs togetehr in case it runs out of the garden and gets run over. Wing clipping is done solely for the selfish wants of the human because they are too lazy to ensure the bird can live happily and safely in their home. I've always had fully flighted birds, they have always had several hours out of their cages and not one, in over 30 years keeping them, has ever escaped.


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Just so you know Fenwomen, I am actually highly offended by what you've just said.

I am not lazy nor selfish when it comes to my birds. They have a completely safe environment to live in and they get everything they bloomin' well want. 

Just because I was considering having a single wing clipped does not make me lazy or selfish.

And yes, to everyone else, i'm quite happy to let her just be herself, just so you know she is reasonably tame, she sits with me eats with me lands on my finger, preens me etc. She's just a little scared of hands, so I figured if I clipped a wing for however long it takes for it to grow back she would have to start relying on my hands a little more thus getting her used to hands more so. She's a stubborn bird and I don't think she'll ever be very adventurous but I think that if I did have her wing clipped and allowed her to get used to my hands she would be an even happier bird after when I let her flight wings grow back in, as I would be able to preen her in response to her preening me. 

She doesn't have another partner by the way, he recently died, and she doesn't really know how to keep herself clean and stuff which is why I would like to be able to get my hands a little close to her.


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## marie_k (Apr 21, 2006)

Antw23uk said:


> Where did that little statistic gem come from?
> 
> Normal behaviour expressed? Sorry locked in a cage unable to fly when it wants is acceptable because they 'can' fly if and when they are out ... :whistling2:


The stastistic cam from figures from "Parrots Lost and Found Register", the National service that records lost/stolen parrots' details. I'm afraid 2009s figure isn't available but is based on recorded data throughout 2008.
I never claimed that locking a bird in a cage is acceptable behaviour, I have been saying all along that birds should be able to express normal behaviour as much as possible. Many owners I deal with end up converting an entire room to a 'bird room' so that birds have a safe area to fly as much as they like rather than being stuck in a cage. Aviaries outside with heated indoor area is also an option.
Your point seems to be that clipped parrots are put in a cage to stop them flying, but let me know if that's not what you mean. I can't see how wing clipping would affect whether a parrot would be stuck in a cage. Surely a bird that is clipped would be unable to be left unsupervised in an unsuitable room anyway? They are surprisingly adept at climbing up anything so can get up to as much trouble as a flighted bird, just can't escape from it as easily!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feathers grow right back... teeth don't...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

clipping doesn't stop flying...


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

HABU said:


> feathers grow right back... teeth don't...


What does that matter if they're clipped back again?



HABU said:


> clipping doesn't stop flying...


In his country at least, it's guideline to clip to stop flying, but the feathers must be long enough to allow for a 'glide' safely to the floor.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> What does that matter if they're clipped back again?
> 
> 
> 
> In his country at least, it's guideline to clip to stop flying, but the feathers must be long enough to allow for a 'glide' safely to the floor.


I think what this lady is considering is clipping only once, so the bird can get used to her. Next moult they'll grow back, and if the bird has lost it's fear of hands, there's no need to clip them again.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LiamRatSnake said:


> I think what this lady is considering is clipping only once, so the bird can get used to her. Next moult they'll grow back, and if the bird has lost it's fear of hands, there's no need to clip them again.



What lady?! I haven't read any posts other then those of a few certain people, I've not said anything about anybody elses bird or practices!


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> What lady?! I haven't read any posts other then those of a few certain people, I've not said anything about anybody elses bird or practices!


Sorry. misread your post. :devil: I was refering to the OP.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

fiona_951 said:


> And yes, to everyone else, i'm quite happy to let her just be herself, just so you know she is reasonably tame, she sits with me eats with me lands on my finger, preens me etc. She's just a little scared of hands, so I figured if I clipped a wing for however long it takes for it to grow back she would have to start relying on my hands a little more thus getting her used to hands more so. She's a stubborn bird and I don't think she'll ever be very adventurous but I think that if I did have her wing clipped and allowed her to get used to my hands she would be an even happier bird after when I let her flight wings grow back in, as I would be able to preen her in response to her preening me.


Surely the same aim could be achieved by handling her more IN her cage rather than clipping her wings?

We had a wing-clipped Timneh Grey, who was clipped when we bought her. To this date she has been obsessive about *destroying* her wing feathers - she breaks them, pulls them out and even makes herself bleed. Best we can tell is that the feathers growing back in - without other feathers around them to cushion the pinfeathers - are itchy or uncomfortable.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

fiona_951 said:


> Just so you know Fenwomen, I am actually highly offended by what you've just said


<shrug>




> I am not lazy nor selfish when it comes to my birds. They have a completely safe environment to live in and they get everything they bloomin' well want.


good.You are only doing your duty by them after all. You decided to get them.Therefore, you have a duty to provide them with all they need.



> Just because I was considering having a single wing clipped does not make me lazy or selfish.


 No? So you are doing it for the bird's benefit? She will be happier or healthier without the power of flight?



> And yes, to everyone else, i'm quite happy to let her just be herself, just so you know she is reasonably tame, she sits with me eats with me lands on my finger, preens me etc. She's just a little scared of hands, so I figured if I clipped a wing for however long it takes for it to grow back she would have to start relying on my hands a little more thus getting her used to hands more so.


 Ahhhh so you are doing it for your own benefit. You want a tame bird but aren't prepared to make a real effort and take things slowly. You prefer a quick fix. If that isn't selfish I dunno what is.



> She's a stubborn bird


 Oh purlease!! Stop anthropomorphising. She prefers not to have close contact with you, so you put it down to being stubborn? Does she have no say in the matter?She merely has to perform as you want her to perform and submit to your whims?


> I don't think she'll ever be very adventurous but I think that if I did have her wing clipped and allowed her to get used to my hands she would be an even happier bird after when I let her flight wings grow back in, as I would be able to preen her in response to her preening me.


 Nonsense. You want a bird to sit on your hand. You want close contact. You are not prepared to put in the time and are not prepared to allow her to take her time to trust you. In my book, that's selfish.



> She doesn't have another partner by the way, he recently died, and she doesn't really know how to keep herself clean and stuff which is why I would like to be able to get my hands a little close to her.


 Of course she knows how to 'keep herself clean' she's a bird. Spray mist her and watch her preen.
If you were honest with yourself, you'd admit to yourself that you want her to be unable to get away from you, in order that you get what you want from the bird.She has no choice in the matter. You aren't even allowing her time to adjust to being without her partner, or to grieve and come to terms with his loss.Selfish.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LiamRatSnake said:


> I think what this lady is considering is clipping only once, so the bird can get used to her. Next moult they'll grow back, and if the bird has lost it's fear of hands, there's no need to clip them again.


Birds have 2 means of dealing with fear. Fight, or flight. Remove the flight option of a fearful bird and clipping the wings could mean the bird starts to bite. It's a common ocurrance too.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Birds have 2 means of dealing with fear. Fight, or flight. Remove the flight option of a fearful bird and clipping the wings could mean the bird starts to bite. It's a common ocurrance too.


I know, we had a ringneck in college that the tutors wanted tame, so clipped, it became even nastier than ever as it simply didn't want contact, and like you say, without the means to escape, it attacked and it bloody hurt.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok, here goes...

Clipping only one wing on a parrot is even more dangerous than clipping both wings! 

Some individual parrots just do not take to close contact with humans, the same as some cats, horses, rats, etc. At the end of the day, if the humane sensitive training methods have failed to bring results in getting the animal to enjoy human contact, than it should be accespted that the individual is likely to remain like this & should be allowed to live as such.

I can not see the similarity between wing-clipping a parrot & putting a dog on a leash! Putting a dog on a leash does not cause suffering, & is genuinely in the best interests of the dog to protect it from harm. Wing-clipping is done to parrots primarily for the best interest of the owner, not the parrot.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Ok, here goes...
> 
> Clipping only one wing on a parrot is even more dangerous than clipping both wings!
> 
> ...


 
"Clipping only one wing on a parrot is even more dangerous than clipping both wings! " 

why?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> "Clipping only one wing on a parrot is even more dangerous than clipping both wings! "
> 
> why?


Simple. Because with one wing clipped, the bird has no control over it's descent to the ground, & it will generally turn in a circle as it tries to flap & fly. A bird with 2 evenly clipped wings should at least be able to have some control over its descent, & should be able to try to aim itself fairly reasonably.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you feed a parrot from when it had pinfeathers and closed eyes... nurture it and get it on solid food... checking it like an infant every so many hours, round the clock and we're talking about being vicious?

that's your baby...

the first few years it's good to keep a handle on their youthful exuberance... one mistake and that young, trusting and inexperienced baby sees a chance to zoom down the road with those other birds...

only takes one time and it's lost and dies... it's naive...

clipping helps prevent this till they mature and get wiser...

you'll see a clipped and unclipped cockatoo act exactly the same way... except if a dog or someone spooks a youngster it won't be able to bolt quite as well... into the wild blue yonder forever... or till a cat gets it...


you have a perpetual 3 year old on your hands... they get silly and do dumb things... taking a moluccan outside is a serious risk risk if it has full flight capabilities... they need to get over that flying stage where they think they are bald eagles or something... it's for their safety...

later... in a few years they'll mellow out... and you can trust them not to fly...

i mean this is a life-long commitment... you need to provide for them after you die...

young birds make bad choices at times...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Simple. Because with one wing clipped, the bird has no control over it's descent to the ground, & it will generally turn in a circle as it tries to flap & fly. A bird with 2 evenly clipped wings should at least be able to have some control over its descent, & should be able to try to aim itself fairly reasonably.


 
you launching yours off the roof or something?


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## Mrs Meldrew (Oct 5, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Birds have 2 means of dealing with fear. Fight, or flight. Remove the flight option of a fearful bird and clipping the wings could mean the bird starts to bite. It's a common ocurrance too.


 
I agree completely....


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

HABU said:


> you feed a parrot from when it had pinfeathers and closed eyes... nurture it and get it on solid food... checking it like an infant every so many hours, round the clock and we're talking about being vicious?


Over here, Habu, you cannot buy an unweaned bird, as far as I'm aware - I am under the impression that no animal can be sold before it can feed *itself*. 

Sure, parrots are hand-reared here, but their breeder is "mum", not their new owner. And budgies, cockatiels and lovebirds are not often hand-reared at all - so they do not see people as anything other than large hairless potential-predators until they learn to trust.

Preventing something from escaping your grip is not the same thing as teaching it you are harmless.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Well here in the UK, no good parrot breeder would ever sell a baby parrot that is unweaned! That is just wrong, like selling a puppy that is still suckling from its mother.

So you would get a baby parrot from a breeder, when it's flight feathers have grown you would clip them & keep them clipped for around 3 years? Then let the flight feathers grow back & allow the parrot to be fully flighted? A bird that has not been allowed to gain the vital experiences of flying, taking off, slowing down, landing, etc will not only be mentally lacking, but will not have the muscle power to perform such tasks effeciently.

And to trust a parrot to never fly is just daft.


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

I don't see the point in asking questions on this forum anymore, you just get slagged off for considering the possibility that other tactics may or may not work... 

I was only asking a question but when people like you, Fenwoman, start calling people selfish and other unnecessary rubbish it does make me wonder, what the f**k is the point in asking questions here. 

I'll go and ask on a bird forum and i'm sure they'll probably give both bad and good reasons for wing clipping as many people here have, but maybe they won't slag me off just for considering it.

I know myself that I am not lazy or selfish at all when it comes to my animals and for you to just shrug off the fact that I was offended by that when all I was doing was asking a simple question is pretty immature and quite rude to be honest. You could have at least apologised. Also, instead of just being rude maybe just giving your opinion with reasoning would have been more useful. If you really gave a sh*t about the animals wellbeing you would have tried possibly informing me about why it was a bad idea instead of calling me names and generally acting like a child.

Back to the subject, 

I wasn't going to rush out tomorrow and get her wings clipped based on anyones opinions here anyway, I was going to speak to a professional avian vet for the best opinion. Also, I was intending on leaving it to see if she would warm to me a little more. I'm quite happy to accept the fact that if she isn't a "cuddly tame" bird, then she isn't going to be, and thats fine, but why shouldn't I be allowed to try everything to get her tame? Whats so wrong with wanting that? As long as it doesn't affect her then I don't see a problem with wanting that, that doesn't make me selfish though. I don't think so anyway. 

Say what you want, to be honest, I don't know why I bother here anymore, so many people have got so b*tchy when other people are just asking for help... Ridiculous...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

we americans are barbarians it seems...

we also drive 65 miles an hour.... with children!:lol2:


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Well for some reason i've just read through all of this!
Fiona, i think the reason that some people may be getting wound up is because it is a very emotive subject. You have asked for advice and the majority have suggested that you don't clip the feathers. They have given you very valid reasons for not doing so. 
Looking at your most recent post, the reasons why you are considering having your parrots wings clipped are the very reasons that most people are against it, and you don't seem to have taken any of the advice or opinions on board as you pretty much sound like you're going to do it anyway. You are asking still asking questions that have been answered a good few times already in the thread. 
If opinions and advice are going to be ignored then what was the point of this thread?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> we americans are barbarians it seems...
> 
> we also drive 65 miles an hour.... with children!:lol2:


tut :roll:


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Well, not really at all as I have read every single post here and anybody that has spoken to me sensibly and actually as if they are trying to help instead of just being an argumentative child for the sake of doing so has been listened to. Hence why Kairi is still flapping around my room like a freakin' looney.

Fair enough for people to be passionate about things, I am as well, but if someone is asking for advice there is no need to call them names. Just give them your opinion nicely and sensibly and then leave them to think what they want to think surely? 

Now, if I was a tw*t I would ignore everything everyone has said on this post and I would do what I want, but as I didn't know what I wanted to do, as I wanted to do what was best for her I currently haven't done anything. 

I don't see why I should have my friggin' head bitten off just for asking quite an innocent questions. I even said that I knew it was a sensitive subject and that I just needed help. I can't believe I actually expected someone to sensibly answer without arguing. 

If Fenwoman has replied something like this, "I personally think it is a bad idea as it could harm the bird because of ... ... ... etc and you could try these other options instead? Or leave her as is?" Instead of calling me lazy and selfish etc etc. 

"You want a tame bird but aren't prepared to make a real effort and take things slowly. You prefer a quick fix. If that isn't selfish I dunno what is."
"She merely has to perform as you want her to perform and submit to your whims?"
"You are not prepared to put in the time"
"If you were honest with yourself, you'd admit to yourself that you want her to be unable to get away from you, in order that you get what you want from the bird"
"You aren't even allowing her time to adjust to being without her partner" I'm assuming she thinks she knows everything because she has owned birds? Obviously experience is vital but I work at a Bird Zoo and we wouldn't dare talk to anyone like the way she spoke to me. We would try to advise people and HELP them. If we were to talk to anyone like that we wouldn't expect them to go away with any knowledge of what to actually do. Maybe a less sarcastic, less b*tchy, less stuck up approach is needed next time...

As well as this, if you have read the entire thing you'll have noted that i've actually only replied about 3 times twice explaining my situation and once defending myself against those kind of remarks and asking not to have arguments. 

This is pretty ridiculous in fairness... Is there something wrong with me wanting peoples opinions and then making my own judgement or something? 

I would never do anything that I thought would hurt the bird physically or mentally and that is all I wanted to know about. Not about "God gave birds wings and if you want to take that away your a selfish person." I'm not asking about it because I don't want Kairi to fly. I'm asking about it because I don't want her to be scared of me. I don't want her to panic if I have to take her to the vets, yes I want her to be tame and "cuddly" with me, but I also want to be able to check her over for any problems that need checking for and currently I can't do this due to her behaviour. I didn't think having the wings clipped once and then letting them regrow would cause a problem at all seeing as it happens often where I work and many of my friends have done it also, but instead of just taking there word I thought I was doing the responsible thing by trying to ask other people who may have had good/bad experiences to share with me to aid my decision and knowledge of wing clipping, but pretty much all I got in response, bar a very helpful "count on one hand" few, was a load of bickering and name calling. How f**king childish...

For an animal forum, maybe not specifically birds, but general animal lovers, I would have thought people would have cared enough to give a genuine answer instead of just being silly and trying to pick fights... Don't you understand why i'm a little angry?


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

My advice, take what you've learnt from where you work, your friends, here and maybe an Avian vet, then decide yourself. It's your bird, your responsibility and your choice. I hope you manage to sort your bird out : victory:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Lola, my Blue-Fronted Amazon, came to me from my friend Wendy. Lola was extremely bonded to Wendy. Wherever Wendy went, Lola would go too. Lola would sleep on the headboard of the bed, but Wendy would have to wake up before Lola because if Lola woke up first, she would attack Wendy's husband. Wendy had to give Lola up as she became allergic to the feather dust. When I went to collect Lola, Wendy suggested I might want to invest in a long blonde wig & some fake boobs, as Lola did not like men at all & preferred blonde women. 

I have had Lola now for 4 years. She still prefers women, & would not step onto my hand or allow me to touch her at first. I have never once been bitten by Lola. She is much better now, she will step onto my hand when asked, & she will allow me to stroke & kiss the top of her head. She will probably never be as soppy & tame as my other 3 parrots, but as long as she is happy & healthy, I don't mind at all. Lola has never been wing-clipped.

And just for interest, Lola is a DNA sexed female parrot, which goes against the old wives tale of 'male parrots prefer female people', & vice versa!


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Lola, my Blue-Fronted Amazon, came to me from my friend Wendy. Lola was extremely bonded to Wendy. Wherever Wendy went, Lola would go too. Lola would sleep on the headboard of the bed, but Wendy would have to wake up before Lola because if Lola woke up first, she would attack Wendy's husband. Wendy had to give Lola up as she became allergic to the feather dust. When I went to collect Lola, Wendy suggested I might want to invest in a long blonde wig & some fake boobs, as Lola did not like men at all & preferred blonde women.
> 
> I have had Lola now for 4 years. She still prefers women, & would not step onto my hand or allow me to touch her at first. I have never once been bitten by Lola. She is much better now, she will step onto my hand when asked, & she will allow me to stroke & kiss the top of her head. She will probably never be as soppy & tame as my other 3 parrots, but as long as she is happy & healthy, I don't mind at all. Lola has never been wing-clipped.
> 
> And just for interest, Lola is a DNA sexed female parrot, which goes against the old wives tale of 'male parrots prefer female people', & vice versa!


Your parrot is from ******?:whistling2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Out of interest, where do you work? 

Probably my favourite bird park is Desford Tropical Bird Land. They rescue numerous parrots, & they have many parrots free-flying & clambering about in the trees as you walk around. You can be sat enjoying a cup of tea when all of a sudden a couple of Conures will just fly out of nowhere & land on your head! :2thumb:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LiamRatSnake said:


> Your parrot is from ******?:whistling2:


Oi cheeky! :whip:

Lola will come & bite your bum, as she did to my friend Andy! :lol2:


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

At the end of the day it IS up to the OP to decide what she feels is best for her and her pet/s. Personally I've found the best way to get your point across to someone else is to be polite and factual - I know myself if someone is rudely blunt and tactless in their reply I will probably ignore them. The way to educate people is to respect them and their choices. It is possible to be passionate and polite surely?

Zoo-Man I take my hat off to you Sir, you have been nothing but polite and informative throughout the whole thread which is a lot more than I could have done - you are thinking only of the animal - respect to you my friend :notworthy:


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Out of interest, where do you work?
> 
> Probably my favourite bird park is Desford Tropical Bird Land. They rescue numerous parrots, & they have many *parrots free-flying & clambering about in the trees* as you walk around. You can be sat enjoying a cup of tea when all of a sudden a couple of Conures will just fly out of nowhere & land on your head! :2thumb:


How parrots should be kept IMO

And to Fiona - this is 'other pets and exotics' so expect to be treated with contempt. They pretty much hate everyone that isnt 'local' to the section and dont agree or bow down to everything they say. Especially the two 'top bitches' ... i think you have been abused by one of them already! Thank your lucky stars they weren't working as a tag team .. they make a formidable team :whistling2:


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Haha thanks to you last few guys that have posted. These are the kinda of responses I needed, just information and experiences, not a slanging match. Haha

Okay, i've decided i'm gonna keep her flighted anyway as I recently found out that I think I can tame her down a little more with grapes. As odd as that sounds. Haha She's literally just decided that she LOVES grapes and i'm gonna try the tactic "If your not nice, your not getting any." Haha Would that be a good idea?

As said, I just was a little offended at the fact that people think its okay to assume i'm a lazy, selfish bird owner just because I was considering something that i'd heard about from other people. A littler unfair...

And yea, just so people know, i'm a volunteer worker at Birdworld in Farnham, we don't clip our birds wings, they're all fully flighted and we have a massive outdoor parrot flight aviary for them all. Some of them are nice and tame but I wouldn't trust the Macaws... Lol We do get the occasional one that for healths sake we've had to clip once, I think? I'm not entirely sure 'coz I work more with the parrots out in the aviary and stuff, not in the veterinary section. We do have quite a few rescued parrots as well that have had their wings clipped and they are just as lovely as the fully flighted birds, thats why I kinda assumed it probably wouldn't have any mental affect on a bird.

But yea, thanks to the last couple of people who actually had the decency to HELP and ADVISE me politely and sensibly. Really appreciate it! And thanks again to the same people for being nice when I didn't understand certain things. =)


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

fiona_951 said:


> Haha thanks to you last few guys that have posted. These are the kinda of responses I needed, just information and experiences, not a slanging match. Haha
> 
> Okay, i've decided i'm gonna keep her flighted anyway as I recently found out that I think I can tame her down a little more with grapes. As odd as that sounds. Haha She's literally just decided that she LOVES grapes and i'm gonna try the tactic "If your not nice, your not getting any." Haha Would that be a good idea?
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you've found a way to encourage her to you! I like grapes too:lol2:


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Haha! So do I! She's got so funny actually, literally since last night when I let her try one, she's become suddenly very obsessive about them! To the point where, if i'm eating them and she's out of the cage she tries to eat them out of my mouth! Haha Crazy bird! =)


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Please be very careful giving her grapes - they've been implicated in several cases of kidney failure in small animals (particularly mammals).

Would blueberries or raspberries get a similar response?


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

fiona_951 said:


> Haha! So do I! She's got so funny actually, literally since last night when I let her try one, she's become suddenly very obsessive about them! To the point where, if i'm eating them and she's out of the cage she tries to eat them out of my mouth! Haha Crazy bird! =)


Sounds like you're on the right track! Though obviously now it isn't safe to leave a bowl of grapes anywhere lol


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Cheers for the info! I'll try her on blueberries and raspberries tonight. Luckily she's only managed to get her little beak into a couple of grapes but yea, I won't ever be able to leave a bowl of them out without my supervision! Haha

I think she'll probably like raspberries and blueberries as she suddenly seems quite interested in trying most fruits... Strange how shes changed like, overnight. Haha


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*tempting parrots*

I got my first amazon tame with oranges.I just used to sit by his cage doing my own thing with an orange piece on my knee.He'd had 3 homes and was completely wild.Had twenty six years of fantastic friendship with him even when he became part of a pair.The orange wing amazon is much underrated I think because they aren't fantastic mimics.Now hes passed on I'm left with his wife who despite being very tame can't stand me.I'm resigned to lumping it.Good luck with yours.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

sarahc said:


> I got my first amazon tame with oranges.I just used to sit by his cage doing my own thing with an orange piece on my knee.He'd had 3 homes and was completely wild.Had twenty six years of fantastic friendship with him even when he became part of a pair.The orange wing amazon is much underrated I think because they aren't fantastic mimics.Now hes passed on I'm left with his wife who despite being very tame can't stand me.I'm resigned to lumping it.Good luck with yours.


We had a double yellow headed amazon in the shop (this is years ago when i worked in a parrot pet shop) and he would trill/ laugh/ puff up and go all gooey to anyone female ...... to men he would go out of his way to get us and cause as much damage as possible, he HATED men ... he was lethal but then a women came along and he was like a little softy again, chatting away, laughing and displaying : victory:


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Also .. sorry to post again so quickly, lol ... i do believe parrot breeders clip the wings of the cock birds on species like amazons and cockatoos. The practice is used in the breeding season when the males get over excited or voilent to their partners for whatever reason (other birds near by he cant get to or over enthusiastic mating etc)

Just thought i would mention that as well. Outdoor aviary birds clipped for the safety of its cage mate/ hen bird!


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

If you're thinking food, we managed to tame(ish) a particularly stubborn Rosella with Celery, all the birds went mad for it.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*unfriendly parrots*



Antw23uk said:


> We had a double yellow headed amazon in the shop (this is years ago when i worked in a parrot pet shop) and he would trill/ laugh/ puff up and go all gooey to anyone female ...... to men he would go out of his way to get us and cause as much damage as possible, he HATED men ... he was lethal but then a women came along and he was like a little softy again, chatting away, laughing and displaying : victory:


Now the cock bird has passed on the heat has gone out of her aggression.I used to subjected to air attacks:gasp:These have died off but occasionally she'll slide down the leg of the cage and charge accross the carpet for an attack on my feet.I love double yellow heads and they used to be something I hoped to get one day.


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

fiona_951 said:


> Strange how shes changed like, overnight. Haha


 
Personally I think she read your post and thought **** that for a game of soldiers :lol2::lol2:

Sorry I couldnt help myself there!!

Just wanted to wish you and your bird lots of luck :2thumb:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> You can be sat enjoying a cup of tea when all of a sudden a couple of Conures will just fly out of nowhere & land on your head! :2thumb:


Are they offering sparrow hawks something exotic to eat ?:whistling2:.Surly that's a risk as sparrow hawk numbers have said to have gone up.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

gazz said:


> Are they offering sparrow hawks something exotic to eat ?:whistling2:.Surly that's a risk as sparrow hawk numbers have said to have gone up.


Sparrow Hawks tend to be more attracted to open gardens with plenty of feeders and the like in them. I'd take a guess that where Colin is talking about, isn't open or calm enough for Sparrow Hawks anyway.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> Sparrow Hawks tend to be more attracted to open gardens with plenty of feeders and the like in them. I'd take a guess that where Colin is talking about, isn't open or calm enough for Sparrow Hawks anyway.


I've seen a sparrowhawk hunting pigeons on market day in a busy town centre, though no one else seemed to notice the drama going on above their heads :lol2:


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

We had one in our garden shredding a pigeon, it was amazing. I was concerned about the mess on the lawn but the dog cleared it up, the tramp.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> Sparrow Hawks tend to be more attracted to open gardens with plenty of feeders and the like in them. I'd take a guess that where Colin is talking about, isn't open or calm enough for Sparrow Hawks anyway.


It deffo looks like a area where Sparrow hawks would hang out.Judging by the back ground.










Pictures.
Birdland Desford


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## fiona_951 (May 27, 2008)

Mrs Mental said:


> Personally I think she read your post and thought **** that for a game of soldiers :lol2::lol2:
> 
> Sorry I couldnt help myself there!!
> 
> Just wanted to wish you and your bird lots of luck :2thumb:


HAHA! This is brilliant! =) I'd like to think so! Haha Thanks again! Glad i've decided to let her stay all flappy haha she's a mental bird. Lol


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## Mrs Mental (May 5, 2009)

fiona_951 said:


> HAHA! This is brilliant! =) I'd like to think so! Haha Thanks again! Glad i've decided to let her stay all flappy haha she's a mental bird. Lol


:2thumb:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mrs Mental said:


> At the end of the day it IS up to the OP to decide what she feels is best for her and her pet/s. Personally I've found the best way to get your point across to someone else is to be polite and factual - I know myself if someone is rudely blunt and tactless in their reply I will probably ignore them. The way to educate people is to respect them and their choices. It is possible to be passionate and polite surely?
> 
> *Zoo-Man I take my hat off to you Sir, you have been nothing but polite and informative throughout the whole thread which is a lot more than I could have done - you are thinking only of the animal - respect to you my friend* :notworthy:


Thanks hun, I try hehe


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> How parrots should be kept IMO
> 
> And to Fiona - this is 'other pets and exotics' so expect to be treated with contempt. They pretty much hate everyone that isnt 'local' to the section and dont agree or bow down to everything they say. Especially the two 'top bitches' ... i think you have been abused by one of them already! Thank your lucky stars they weren't working as a tag team .. they make a formidable team :whistling2:


I'm intrigued now as to who this second person is? :hmm:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> Also .. sorry to post again so quickly, lol ... i do believe parrot breeders clip the wings of the cock birds on species like amazons and cockatoos. The practice is used in the breeding season when the males get over excited or voilent to their partners for whatever reason (other birds near by he cant get to or over enthusiastic mating etc)
> 
> Just thought i would mention that as well. Outdoor aviary birds clipped for the safety of its cage mate/ hen bird!


Yes, males of the white Cockatoo species are particularly prone to aggression towards their mate at breeding time. Some breeders often do clip the wings of an overly aggressive male to give the female a chance to escape his overzealous advances. But nowadays most breeders would tend to just make sure the breeding pair is in a large enough aviary & would use a nest box with 2 or sometimes even 3 entrance/exit holes.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

gazz said:


> Are they offering sparrow hawks something exotic to eat ?:whistling2:.Surly that's a risk as sparrow hawk numbers have said to have gone up.


Obviously they don't have a problem with birds of prey, otherwise they wouldn't risk allowing some of the birds free-flight. I suppose any Sparrowhawk with some sense would see the Macaws, Cockatoos & Amazons that are loose nearby & think better of attempting an attack on the smaller species close by.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> I'm intrigued now as to who this second person is? :hmm:


Apparently its against rules to name and shame forumites :lol2:



Zoo-Man said:


> Yes, males of the white Cockatoo species are particularly prone to aggression towards their mate at breeding time. Some breeders often do clip the wings of an overly aggressive male to give the female a chance to escape his overzealous advances. But nowadays most breeders would tend to just make sure the breeding pair is in a large enough aviary & would use a nest box with 2 or sometimes even 3 entrance/exit holes.


Thanks, it was only when i remembererd the double yellow headed amazon we had that i remembered the wing clipping/ agression stuff as well. Been a long time :blush:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> Apparently its against rules to name and shame forumites :lol2:
> 
> 
> Thanks, it was only when i remembererd the double yellow headed amazon we had that i remembered the wing clipping/ agression stuff as well. Been a long time :blush:


I think it was mainly with the breeders who used small aviaries or the small breeding cages that experienced the worst cases of male aggression.


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