# most venomous spider in the world?



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

i always thought it was either the black widow or the Sydney funnel web but just been looking around and it seems now its the Brazilian wandering spider, is this true?

also just watched some top 10 most venomous animals video and it says the death stalker scorpion is more venomous than the funnel web, is that true also?


----------



## peter_parker (Dec 16, 2009)

id say unofficially sicarious terrosus. Still doing tests on its toxins and it was discovered years ago.... Thats one bad ass spider. Cue Dan Halen :whistling2:


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Phoneutria are widely regarded as the most dangerous. They couple a potent venom and aggresive personalitly with a love of living indoors or around human habitation. this results in a lot of significant bite per year. theyre not nessercarily the most toxic, (its close though!) but is the most dangerous technically


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

peter_parker said:


> id say unofficially sicarious terrosus. Still doing tests on its toxins and it was discovered years ago.... Thats one bad ass spider. Cue Dan Halen :whistling2:


Lol the S.hahni is far worse  But overall the Phoneutria have venom 18 times more toxic than Lactrodectus sp. I think the reason people argue that the Atrax are the worlds deadliest is due to the fact that they always deliver a full venom dose where as Phoneutria will not.


----------



## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

They look 'orrible! They look like they have attitude!


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

so what's more poisonous then atrax or latrodectus?


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Latrodectus LD50 1.20–2.70 μg/g
Atrax LD50 0.22 μg/g

So Atrax is more venomous than Latro, it also injects alot more toxin than a latro. Id much rather take a hit from a latro. Even untreated latro's only have around a 5% mortality rate. 

However Phoneutria... LD50 for female venom was 0.63 μg kg-1 (note that this LD50 is for Kg not g) so its significantly more potent. Phoneutria however can 'dry' bite for defense, injecting only low doses to conserve salt and protiens.

Another great one is Loxosceles - LD50 of 0.32 μg/g. These guys inject very small quantities of venom with amazing necrotic effect. You cant really compare this to the other spids listed as the action of this genus's venom is hemolytic rather than neurotoxic.

If i had to take bites from these guys id choose the latro and atrax anyday... Death is bad but not guaranteed... Phoneutria can cause priaprisms so strong they can bust your piece (no-one wants that!) and loxosceles can cause lifelong necrosis that never really heals...

check out this article on Loxosceles treatment (make sure you read it all, you have to click on a 'multimedia' link at the bottom: *GRAPHIC*) http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/772295-overview

All LD50s were from mice.


----------



## The Sandman (Nov 3, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> i always thought it was either the black widow or the Sydney funnel web but just been looking around and it seems now its the Brazilian wandering spider, is this true?
> 
> also just watched some top 10 most venomous animals video and it says the death stalker scorpion is more venomous than the funnel web, is that true also?




yay a mention of scorps.... even though the Leiurus quinquestriatus (death stalker scorp) is the most venomous scorpion, more deaths are caused by Androctonus Australis (yellow fat-tailed scorp).


Just thought i'd add my piece :2thumb:


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

The Sandman said:


> yay a mention of scorps.... even though the Leiurus quinquestriatus (death stalker scorp) is the most venomous scorpion, more deaths are caused by Androctonus Australis (yellow fat-tailed scorp).
> 
> 
> Just thought i'd add my piece :2thumb:


Hahaha yeeaaah! L.quinquestriatus venom is so badass! anything that acts by unravelling the collagen of your venous system causing massive internal bleeding and heart attacks has to be bad!


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

Ok so out of spiders Phoneutria takes the crown on venom potency, but which Phoneutria?.... I'd guess either the Nigriventer or the fera


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> Ok so out of spiders Phoneutria takes the crown on venom potency, but which Phoneutria?.... I'd guess either the Nigriventer or the fera


Yeah P.nigriventer is the one to watch! However regional and sexual dimorphisms apply, clouding the clarity of the results... they (P.nigriventer) are the ones most likely to be in your bedroom though...

Venoms act in very different ways in different animals and individuals. Some seemingly weak venoms can kill through novel pathways or cascade effects... Loxosceles are a good example... a necrotic venom that in theory shouldnt be as bad as it is, but it can cause hemolysis in the blood which in turn causes renal failure and coagulopathy which in turn causes death. Venom actions are fascinating!


----------



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

So, not that it really means a great deal for the reasons discussed above, but does anyone know what the LD50 of S. hahni venom is? Although perhaps not the most dangerous spider, as I understand them to be quite docile (perhaps you can confirm this Tim), I thought they had the most potent cytotoxin of any living creature, and as toxins go, a cytotoxin, by virtue of its rapid necrotising effect must be right up there as the worst. That coupled with the fact there is no antivenom so if you do get tagged your absolute best case scenario is you lose the limb. That's gotta suck.

For the record, I think i'm going to find it extremely difficult to come back from Hamm without an S. hahni or S. terrosus. If I see them I don't think I'll be able to resist it. They're just so damn cool.


----------



## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

i was watching deadly 60 on bbc one yesterday and he has a brazilian wondering spider on his leg and said it couldnt bite him through his trousers, is this true? i remember reading somewhere before that it was harder for a true spider to bite you then a tarantula because of how the pincers work? is this true to?


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

jakakadave said:


> So, not that it really means a great deal for the reasons discussed above, but does anyone know what the LD50 of S. hahni venom is? Although perhaps not the most dangerous spider, as I understand them to be quite docile (perhaps you can confirm this Tim), I thought they had the most potent cytotoxin of any living creature, and as toxins go, a cytotoxin, by virtue of its rapid necrotising effect must be right up there as the worst. That coupled with the fact there is no antivenom so if you do get tagged your absolute best case scenario is you lose the limb. That's gotta suck.
> 
> For the record, I think i'm going to find it extremely difficult to come back from Hamm without an S. hahni or S. terrosus. If I see them I don't think I'll be able to resist it. They're just so damn cool.


The LD50 for S.hahni is 30 pg/kg. Thats terryfyingly powerful! However due to the necrotising factor of the venom, it kills slower than a neurotoxic spid would, (i dont know of any confirmed human cases either, all ive found is here-say and no actual peer reviewed accounts of a bite) 

As far as bite depth goes, yeah your right Dannyb, Wandering spids can tag you through trousers, but Mygalomorphs have better depth of bite and penertration due to the parallel and vertical orientation of thier chelicerae. As thier bite is powered by an up and down motion, Mygalomorphs can use thier body weight and legs to increase the force of thier bite. Ive seen a hideous pic of a Aussie man bitten right THROUGH his big toe nail and the venom was injected into his nail bed... OUCH! :devil:


----------



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

DannyB said:


> i was watching deadly 60 on bbc one yesterday and he has a brazilian wondering spider on his leg and said it couldnt bite him through his trousers, is this true? i remember reading somewhere before that it was harder for a true spider to bite you then a tarantula because of how the pincers work? is this true to?


Well I don't know about that, but bloody hell that was brave if it really was a Phoneutria cuz they're fast as hell and could easily have bitten him elsewhere. Just have a look on youtube to see their speed.


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

LD50's are only a measure of the actual potency of a venom. They are not nessercarily indicative of actual, in the field lethality. This is due to the several points such as, amount of venom delivered in a bite, wether or not different mixes can be used (as in scorpions, they can deliver a salt rich 'warning' sting which hurts like hell but isnt as potent, or a protien rich 'killing' sting... damn!) and also the LD50s wernt tested in humans so effects may vary from rodents/horses etc to people depending on the make-up of the venom.

Although S.hahni has very potent venom, it is docile and reluctant to bite (as previously mentioned!) and injects only very small doses. This renders the spider less dangerous than say an Atrax or a Phoneutria, which although according to LD50s are less toxic, they inject more venom, the venom is faster acting on the body and they are mean, oh so very mean!


----------



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> The LD50 for S.hahni is 30 pg/kg. Thats terryfyingly powerful! However due to the necrotising factor of the venom, it kills slower than a neurotoxic spid would, (i dont know of any confirmed human cases either, all ive found is here-say and no actual peer reviewed accounts of a bite)
> 
> As far as bite depth goes, yeah your right Dannyb, Wandering spids can tag you through trousers, but Mygalomorphs have better depth of bite and penertration due to the parallel and vertical orientation of thier chelicerae. As thier bite is powered by an up and down motion, Mygalomorphs can use thier body weight and legs to increase the force of thier bite. Ive seen a hideous pic of a Aussie man bitten right THROUGH his big toe nail and the venom was injected into his nail bed... OUCH! :devil:


So how does the LD50 of S. hanhi compare to Atrax, Phoneutria, Loxoscelese? My maths is rubbish so i probably have this totally wrong but does that work out at .03 µg/g? 

That said, this thread is about what is the most venomous spider, not what is the most dangerous. So that being the case, does that mean S. hahni is the most venomous?


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

jakakadave said:


> So how does the LD50 of S. hanhi compare to Atrax, Phoneutria, Loxoscelese? My maths is rubbish so i probably have this totally wrong but does that work out at .03 µg/g?
> 
> That said, this thread is about what is the most venomous spider, not what is the most dangerous. So that being the case, does that mean S. hahni is the most venomous?


Yeah i think thats right. my maths is poor also.

Venom potency is a difficult thing to pin down. You cant really compare potency across Cytotoxic and Neurotoxic venoms as the mode of action is too different. You die faster with a neurotoxic bite, but suffer worse physical damage with a cytotoxic.

As far as LD50s go, S.hahni is technically the most potent ive seen, but venom effectiveness goes far beyond LD50's, and a strong LD50 isnt often an accurate gauge, its just a sort of estimate. Venoms act very differently and seem to high a high entropy when it comes to effects on the body.

If all you care about is the chemical effectiveness of of a venom at killing 50 percent of mice, then S.hahni is best. If you want the actual effectiveness of a spider in taking down a human in the field, then S.hahni is a little sand dwelling wuss as it hasnt really killed anyone known about! and run like hell from Phoneutria, Atrax, loxosceles and the rest that cause significant amounts of death each year!


----------



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> The LD50 for S.hahni is 30 pg/kg. Thats terryfyingly powerful! However due to the necrotising factor of the venom, it kills slower than a neurotoxic spid would, (i dont know of any confirmed human cases either, all ive found is here-say and no actual peer reviewed accounts of a bite)
> 
> As far as bite depth goes, yeah your right Dannyb, Wandering spids can tag you through trousers, but Mygalomorphs have better depth of bite and penertration due to the parallel and vertical orientation of thier chelicerae. As thier bite is powered by an up and down motion, Mygalomorphs can use thier body weight and legs to increase the force of thier bite. Ive seen a hideous pic of a Aussie man bitten right THROUGH his big toe nail and the venom was injected into his nail bed... OUCH! :devil:





HalcyonInverts said:


> Yeah i think thats right. my maths is poor also.
> 
> Venom potency is a difficult thing to pin down. You cant really compare potency across Cytotoxic and Neurotoxic venoms as the mode of action is too different. You die faster with a neurotoxic bite, but suffer worse physical damage with a cytotoxic.
> 
> ...


Indeed, but taking the actual spider out of the equation and just looking at their venom as an abstract compound. It would take a significantly lower dose of S. hahni venom than any other spider venom to result in death. If that µg/g figure is correct, somewhere in the order of 8-10 times less than Atrax or Phoneutria. That's pretty badass.


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

jakakadave said:


> Indeed, but taking the actual spider out of the equation and just looking at their venom as an abstract compound. It would take a significantly lower dose of S. hahni venom than any other spider venom to result in death. If that µg/g figure is correct, somewhere in the order of 8-10 times less than Atrax or Phoneutria. That's pretty badass.


true, but death would come from cascade effects of hemolysis, and renal failure, not a direct action of the venom causing death. Death would be very slow and ineffective. to me that isnt a good venom, that is a venom designed to kill something very different to ourselves that happens to mess us up also.

As far as i see it, although the LD50 for S.hahni is lower, the slow action and failure to cause venom specific death (it relies on hemolysis cascade effects, indicating its not very effective in mammals) means the venom isnt actually that great. Sure its toxic, but if you dont kill very fast, it dosnt matter how many 50% of mice you can kill. 

If your set on taking the spider out of the equation of venomous spider bites, then yes, S.hahni is the most badass. Technically. In the real world its not badass. quite the oppersite really. As ive said before, venom cannot be read just in the context of LD50's, venom needs real world traits, and spider behaviour attatching to it to make an accurate gauge of a spiders venomous nature upon humans.


----------



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> true, but death would come from cascade effects of hemolysis, and renal failure, not a direct action of the venom causing death. Death would be very slow and ineffective. to me that isnt a good venom, that is a venom designed to kill something very different to ourselves that happens to mess us up also.
> 
> As far as i see it, although the LD50 for S.hahni is lower, the slow action and failure to cause venom specific death (it relies on hemolysis cascade effects, indicating its not very effective in mammals) means the venom isnt actually that great. Sure its toxic, but if you dont kill very fast, it dosnt matter how many 50% of mice you can kill.
> 
> If your set on taking the spider out of the equation of venomous spider bites, then yes, S.hahni is the most badass. Technically. In the real world its not badass. quite the oppersite really. As ive said before, venom cannot be read just in the context of LD50's, venom needs real world traits, and spider behaviour attatching to it to make an accurate gauge of a spiders venomous nature upon humans.


I'd have to disagree i'm afraid. You're talking about what is more dangerous, not what is more venomous. In which case, yes it's whichever is most aggressive and also has very potent venom, so most dangerous is probably the Phoneutria as they are grumpy little buggers.

However If the S. hahni's venom causes death preventable only by _immediate _amputation of the affected limb then regardless you're still gonna die, it'll just take a few hours longer!

So put it this way, I'm going to have to link it back to a recent thread of mine - the would you rather thread. Picture this:

You're sat in A&E in an excellent hospital capable of handling spider bites. In front of you there are two jars. One contains a P. fera and one contains an S. hahni. You HAVE to get bitten on the hand by one of them. Which are you gonna go for and why?


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

jakakadave said:


> I'd have to disagree i'm afraid. You're talking about what is more dangerous, not what is more venomous. In which case, yes it's whichever is most aggressive and also has very potent venom, so most dangerous is probably the Phoneutria as they are grumpy little buggers.
> 
> However If the S. hahni's venom causes death preventable only by _immediate _amputation of the affected limb then regardless you're still gonna die, it'll just take a few hours longer!
> 
> ...


Again, i see what your saying, and you are correct in agreeing that the LD50 of S.hahni is worse, so to speak, than a neurotoxic spider.

But that situation described will never occur. The results of that example are useless as i wouldnt do either. 

Ive said for my last few posts now that S.hahni is technically the strongest toxin. You seem to have a disturbing attraction to this spider to champion its venom so strongly... [edit: re-read this and it may come across as nasty - dont take it as such! it wasnt meant to be!  ]

As for the amputation thing... im fairly certain thats just a myth. No hospital would ever do a random amputation to stop a venom spreading as it would already be systemic throughout your body by the time you got there. An amputation would be to halt necrosis manifesting along the appendage. And where does this myth come from? ive never heard of or read any journals describing any clinical case of S.hahni bites or death. Its all hearsay with no peer reviewed evidence.

A slow death caused by failure to compensate for hemolysis, to me, isnt a strong venom against humans.

Since there is no proper evidence about S.hahni bites in people, LD50's are useless as people arnt mice. there are some venoms that are very potent in mice but dont affect horses when tested.


----------



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Again, i see what your saying, and you are correct in agreeing that the LD50 of S.hahni is worse, so to speak, than a neurotoxic spider.
> 
> But that situation described will never occur. The results of that example are useless as i wouldnt do either.
> 
> ...


Snooooooze... that's not how the would you rather game works! I don't think you can really 'champion' a venom, but meh, whatever dude!

...and to think I was considering taking custody of your leafcutter ant colony!


----------



## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

found these dudes when on my travels in Ecuador 
brazilian wandering spider








Some species of Ctenid (not sure which though)


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

jakakadave said:


> Snooooooze... that's not how the would you rather game works! I don't think you can really 'champion' a venom, but meh, whatever dude!
> 
> ...and to think I was considering taking custody of your leafcutter ant colony!


okaaayyy... Gone from a healthy debate about the dynamics of venom to a 'meh, whatever dude' conversation... Nice

The whole point of debate is when two sides disagree, each comes back at the other with evidence until one is proved correct. I showed evidence, we both agreed it was correct to a point. S.hahni is very toxic

I try to explain the short-comings of the evidence and all i get is 'but S.hahni is the besterest'. 

Get me a peer reviewed journal and then we will talk. As for the ants... it dosnt matter. if no-one wants them, then my room will be even more awesome.


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

tokay said:


> found these dudes when on my travels in Ecuador
> brazilian wandering spider
> image


is that another type of Brazilian wandering spider mate?

the ones i've seen have all had red chelicerae

and cheers for the debate guys learnt a lot

so why is it S.Hahni isn't 'officially' the most venomous spider?

is it because of a lack of research into it and the P.fera and nigriventer have had more research done into the venom?


----------



## jakakadave (Dec 29, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> okaaayyy... Gone from a healthy debate about the dynamics of venom to a 'meh, whatever dude' conversation... Nice
> 
> The whole point of debate is when two sides disagree, each comes back at the other with evidence until one is proved correct. I showed evidence, we both agreed it was correct to a point. S.hahni is very toxic
> 
> ...


LOL oh dear. Chill Winston! The winking smiley is supposed to intimate a joke fella! Wind that neck in! :lol2: Anyway, we agree don't we! :roll::lol2:


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> is that another type of Brazilian wandering spider mate?
> 
> the ones i've seen have all had red chelicerae
> 
> ...


Exactly, its from a lack of research as its not medically significant (ie. it dosnt bite anyone!)

It more than likely will be shown to be extremely toxic possibly the most toxic, but a toxic spider doesnt mean a dangerous one. Since venom's primary function is to kill, defend or incapacitate through a bite or sting, if it never bites or stings its venom useless. Behaviour and chemical effectiveness of venom go hand in hand. One is useless without the other.


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

jakakadave said:


> LOL oh dear. Chill Winston! The winking smiley is supposed to intimate a joke fella! Wind that neck in! :lol2: Anyway, we agree don't we! :roll::lol2:


 Sorry thought you were being an ass! my bad!

Yeah we agree! Neck is fully retracted now! : victory:


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

if it was my opinion i'd say Atrax is the most dangerous spider in the world, top 3 most venomous, most likely the most aggressive and frequently comes into human contact

BADASS!


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> if it was my opinion i'd say Atrax is the most dangerous spider in the world, top 3 most venomous, most likely the most aggressive and frequently comes into human contact
> 
> BADASS!


they certainly are badass.. but there is an effective antivenin. and aussie is a big rich country.. with good hospitals.

Now go to a village in Bolivia and find a Phoneutria running at you, no hospitals around, antivenin is a long way away and you would cry out for the Atrax bite... 

Althought he Atrax bite is going to hurt more than anything else!


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

One other interesting symptom of some neurotoxic spider bites is that they actually induce a terror of death. Thats not a 'oh shit ive been bitten' thing, its an actual chemically induced emotion. You become acutely aware of your imminent mortality and it messes people up!

Thats got to suck! your already in pain, sweating profusely, stomach cramps, a raging hard-on, and now your hysterical with your own impending doom! wouldnt like to ride that train!


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Without running to ask Mr Google iirc_ Atrax_/_Hadronyche _are bad for us primates but not so bad for other mammals due to some querks of their neurotoxins, something that I don't think would show up in an LD50 on rodents, but I could be wrong there.


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Oderus said:


> Without running to ask Mr Google iirc_ Atrax_/_Hadronyche _are bad for us primates but not so bad for other mammals due to some querks of their neurotoxins, something that I don't think would show up in an LD50 on rodents, but I could be wrong there.


yup thats exactly right, Neurotoxins directly interface with the various protiens tertiary structure at synapses and neuromuscular junctions, so different protiens in different animals can render neurotoxins more or less potent. Thats how meercats can become immune to cobra venoms, thier NMJ and synapse proteins have a novel tertiary structure which the 3ftx and other elapid neurotoxins cant bind to effectively.

Thats why i said LD50's are at best an estimate. there is too many variables between individuals let alone species for an accurate value.


----------



## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> is that another type of Brazilian wandering spider mate?
> 
> the ones i've seen have all had red chelicerae
> 
> ...


yeah , very common in and around the rio napo area of the amazon , are bug guide id'ed straight away when we got back from our sneaky solo night trek lol (he wasnt happy we went alone lol )


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

HalcyonInverts said:


> they certainly are badass.. but there is an effective antivenin. and aussie is a big rich country.. with good hospitals.
> 
> Now go to a village in Bolivia and find a Phoneutria running at you, no hospitals around, antivenin is a long way away and you would cry out for the Atrax bite...
> 
> Althought he Atrax bite is going to hurt more than anything else!


with the size of those fangs i wouldn't be surprised! and they're supposed to have awesome biting power as well, not so awesome if you're on the receiving end

have you got a DWA for inverts mate?


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> with the size of those fangs i wouldn't be surprised! and they're supposed to have awesome biting power as well, not so awesome if you're on the receiving end
> 
> have you got a DWA for inverts mate?


no, im an invertebrate zoologist at a public aquarium. Im currently making a new exhibition on venom, with my focus being on Arachnids and inverts as well as a few snakes and fish. Its going to be wild! I also studies snake venom evolution and origins and delivery systems for my Bsc Dissertation.


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

HalcyonInverts said:


> no, im an invertebrate zoologist at a public aquarium. Im currently making a new exhibition on venom, with my focus being on Arachnids and inverts as well as a few snakes and fish. Its going to be wild! I also studies snake venom evolution and origins and delivery systems for my Bsc Dissertation.


argh i see

have you worked with any venomous species such as atrax or phoneutria?


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> argh i see
> 
> have you worked with any venomous species such as atrax or phoneutria?


Ive worked with Phoneutria, but not Atrax, they are incredibly difficult to get hold of. the closest if worked with have been Macrothele gigas. They are still nasty...

Hopefully in the next two weeks i will be recieveing Phoneutria, Loxosceles, Sicarius, Platymeris, Scolopendra, Lieurus quinquestriatus, OBT's... and more, basically any thing that is nasty for the venom exhibition.

Ill be posting a new thread about it when its done, cos it is going to be cool as! Im a true spider type guy so hopefully with my guiding influence there will be a good spread of spider types that should avoid the typical zoo 'chile rose' display.


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

HalcyonInverts said:


> One other interesting symptom of some neurotoxic spider bites is that they actually induce a terror of death. Thats not a 'oh shit ive been bitten' thing, its an actual chemically induced emotion. You become acutely aware of your imminent mortality and it messes people up!
> 
> Thats got to suck! your already in pain, sweating profusely, stomach cramps, a raging hard-on, and now your hysterical with your own impending doom! wouldnt like to ride that train!


oh this was a crackin post as well haha made me laugh


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> oh this was a crackin post as well haha made me laugh


:lol2: Its true though! Neurotoxic bites have got to suck!


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Ive worked with Phoneutria, but not Atrax, they are incredibly difficult to get hold of. the closest if worked with have been Macrothele gigas. They are still nasty...
> 
> Hopefully in the next two weeks i will be recieveing Phoneutria, Loxosceles, Sicarius, Platymeris, Scolopendra, Lieurus quinquestriatus, OBT's... and more, basically any thing that is nasty for the venom exhibition.
> 
> Ill be posting a new thread about it when its done, cos it is going to be cool as! Im a true spider type guy so hopefully with my guiding influence there will be a good spread of spider types that should avoid the typical zoo 'chile rose' display.


where are you based mate and will it be open to the public?


----------



## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> where are you based mate and will it be open to the public?


It will be at Blue Planet Aquarium, I cant give too much away as we are still building it, but its the biggest project here for years and will be ace!

Yeah, its for the public! :2thumb:


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

HalcyonInverts said:


> It will be at Blue Planet Aquarium, I cant give too much away as we are still building it, but its the biggest project here for years and will be ace!
> 
> Yeah, its for the public! :2thumb:


quality! that's only about 30-45 minute drive from here

give us a shout when it's all done mate


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

_Atrax_ I'd heard have been in europe Andy but a long time back and not legal exports of course due to Ozzy law's, but if I was rich id have some fun testing DEFRA over their view of _Atrax_ vs _Hadronyche_ last I heard was they consider the later a synonym of atrax, if i'v not been told porkys on that.


----------



## Zana (Jan 9, 2010)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> i always thought it was either the black widow or the Sydney funnel web but just been looking around and it seems now its the Brazilian wandering spider, is this true?
> 
> also just watched some top 10 most venomous animals video and it says the death stalker scorpion is more venomous than the funnel web, is that true also?


 *You are correct all the way except for a forgotten culprit. In the U.S. the hobo spider, black widow and Brown Recluse are the 3 responsible for the most deaths severe illnesses each year. *


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

That's because in the US you don't have Phoneutria or Atrax, so that makes Lactradectus the USA's most deadly spider


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> That's because in the US you don't have Phoneutria or Atrax, so that makes Lactradectus the USA's most deadly spider


i did think that


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

As HalcyonInverts has said the recluse spider has a different kind of venom that can't really be compared


----------



## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> That's because in the US you don't have Phoneutria or Atrax, so that makes Lactradectus the USA's most deadly spider


I thought Loxosceles were alot more deadly than black widows


----------



## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Is it the Atrax that can bite through bone? or the Trapdoor spider?


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

DannyB said:


> Is it the Atrax that can bite through bone? or the Trapdoor spider?


atrax mate, trapdoor fangs aren't nearly big enough to do that

atrax fangs are huge though, similar to a gaboon viper


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

tokay said:


> I thought Loxosceles were alot more deadly than black widows


It's a different kind of venom from that of Lactrodectus


----------



## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

yup, just didnt think lactrodectus were as bad as people make out


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

tokay said:


> yup, just didnt think lactrodectus were as bad as people make out



They aren't as bad as people make out and personally i'd rather take a bite off a widow than a brown recluse


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> atrax fangs are huge though, similar to a gaboon viper


similar to a gaboon viper???? You are jokeing yes? If not can you show me this atrax with near as dam it 2" long fangs?:lol2:


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> similar to a gaboon viper???? You are jokeing yes? If not can you show me this atrax with near as dam it 2" long fangs?:lol2:


right maybe a slight exaggeration :whistling2:

but there isn't many spiders with fangs with that much size and power


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> right maybe a slight exaggeration :whistling2:
> 
> but there isn't many spiders with fangs with that much size and power


I don't know. Most of the tarantulas you keep at home (with the exception of the dwarf species) have larger fangs but power? I reakon those Ozzy Mouse spiders would bet them hands down along with many trap door spiders.


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> I don't know. Most of the tarantulas you keep at home (with the exception of the dwarf species) have larger fangs but power? I reakon those Ozzy Mouse spiders would bet them hands down along with many trap door spiders.


could be yeah

would only be bird eaters though i reckon with some exceptions that would have bigger fangs


----------



## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm not sure that anyone can actually answer the question at hand. I mean, how are we defining "most venemous"? The ammount of venom? The type? The effects?

There are too many variables to take into account. Personally, I'd not like to take a hit from any of them. 

Saying that, having kept phoneutria, and bred sicarius, I think I'd rather take a hit from the former, rather than the latter.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Danhalen said:


> Saying that, having kept phoneutria, and bred sicarius, I think I'd rather take a hit from the former, rather than the latter.


Why did you get rid of the phoneutria? Was the DWA licence too expensive?

Why would you rather be bitten by the Phoneutria though? Is it not true that some species of Phoneutria have killed people but as yet there is no reliable reports of deaths from any sicarius sp. Even the reports from any African species of Sicarius are just "hear say" in regard to the loss of limbs etc. 
Wasn't it a South American species of Sicarius you bred? S. terrosus? I only ask because according to this:-
Molecular Evolution, Functional Variation, and Proposed Nomenclature of the Gene Family That Includes Sphingomyelinase D in Sicariid Spider Venoms -- Binford et al. 26 (3): 547 -- Molecular Biology and Evolution



> Despite having venom-expressed SMase D homologs, venoms from New World _Sicarius_ have reduced, or no, detectable SMase D activity


So with this in mind I would rather be taged by your S. terrosus than by a Phoneutria sp. But then there are Phoneutria sp. and there are Phoneutria sp. as not all are life threatening.


----------



## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

I've not had phoneutria for a while now. I relocated to Hampshire about a year ago to move in with my fiancee. I've not got around to applying for a licence yet, as I've not anything in the collection license worthy. However, the prices here are quite reasonable, compared to other localities. I've looked into it briefly, and I believe the cost is only around £80 + vet fees for the visit. 

I'll admit, I have certainly been giving some thought to various latrodectus sp (after having a few sacs from rcf Steatoda paykulliana), and it would be wise to prepare for the possible induction of Sicarius sp onto the DWAA, so I'll likely arrange the application, and insurance in the next couple of months.

Anyway, back to the question at hand, I wasn't personally making the judgement based on the effects of the envenomation, rather the chances of envenomation, seeing as it has been reported that envenomation may occur in as little as 1 out of three bites from various Phoneutria sp. But saying that, I don't personally have any data on sicarius envenomation-to-bite percentages. Sicarius may actually envenomate in even less instances I suppose. In the hasts of replying without thinking, I just assumed it would likely be 100%. Oh well, I've had a few drinks this evening, so you'll have to excuse me 

Thank you for the link to the paper by the way. It was certainly very informative.


----------

