# Am I the only one that thinks this? (Dogs..)



## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

I'd like to start with I'd like this to be a mature conversation, I understand this is a topic where people feel strongly and sometimes passion for their beliefs can get things a bit out of hand. Please think before you post  hope I'm not flamed for this but...


To start with I grew up with my father breeding Dobermans and my granda bred Staffies - I have plenty of pics to prove it for the non believers 

It's only been the last five years I've moved away from each breed after owning a couple of daft staffies and clumsy dobbies. Really the only reason I shifted to other breeds is I'm a dog groomer and wanted something with hair :whistling2: so ended up with poodles, bit of a difference. 

Anyway, I hear a lot of stories about people walking dogs that aren't friendly with other dogs in public parks...then ranting and causing trouble when other dogs run up to their dogs and a fight breaks out. 

Most recently this has happened to my bestie who has a staffie cross who she knows doesn't like other dogs yet she will walk it unmuzzled in public dog walking areas.

Now having owned staffies I can stand back and see two sides of this argument...

*1. Why should I keep my dog out the park, its their dog that ran up to mine!*

- I hear this a lot both in my profession, from dog walkers, friends, contacts and horror stories on the internet. My response to this is as a responsible dog owner, if you KNOW your dog isn't great with dogs why isn't it muzzled in public? I am in no way defending these people that let their dogs run riot, but does their dogs deserve to suffer because of their ignorance? right or wrong its the animal that gets hurt in the end.

*That's unfair, where am I suppose to walk my dog then?*

- Most parks have a dog area where you can let your dog off lead in a safe enclosure! if you leave your lead wrapped round the gate most owners get that you don't want them to enter, plus you can just stand near it and explain

*I still don't care, they should get their dog under control*

- I agree. I've had tons of dogs run up to my dogs before and it can get really frustrating. The difference is, my dogs don't attack.

*But if their dog has run up to attack my dog I want it to defend itself!*

- I can understand that. But if your dog is muzzled and their aggressive dog isn't you can report them under the dangerous dogs act.

*Why should I muzzle MY dog though*

- To put it simply it's down to you to be responsible for your own dog. If you know it's aggressive on the lead why would you run the risk of getting your dog put down when a puppy runs over to say hi... or a kid is out walking their dog on a flexi lead :gasp:

Like I said I hate seeing puppies running around the park with their owners running behind them trying to catch them, those people need to be educated on the risks... but then that brings up the debate of why should their be RISKS in PUBLIC walking area's? 

Thought's? your own stories? 

I do like a debate but like I said, keep it mature guys! I simply want to know if other people can see/agree with my logic :flrt:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I have often said the similar.

First off I believe all dogs should be kept away from all other dogs when on lead. If your dog is able to be off lead it should be capable of greeting and being greeted by other non offensive dogs in a polite manner. Dogs are social creatures, and needing a practically written invite for your dog to play with another dog, which is pretty much the norm one place I have lived is silly. Equally though I would not ask my dog on lead to greet another on lead dog, when we have them on a lead they have limited options to greet in a way they would naturally do to be polite, ie circling around, sniffing from behind, turning their body if they wish etc etc

I have been in a situation of owning a dog aggressive rescue dog when she was on the lead. I do understand the issue, especially in rescues when you didn't cause it, or get to know the incident it was triggered by for an easier early fix....but

Yes the owner of the dog who runs up has not taught recall, but equally the owner of the dog on the lead cannot teach their dog not to attack and to trust the human to protect them (the dog). In my view 50/50 failure.

Not wishing to humanise dogs, but If you had a child with a behavioural issue who punched other children then would you take them to a park and then blame other children for getting punched because they tried to use the same area of the park as your problem child? 

My dog was bitten by a terrier, she was playing chase with another dog in wide circles and happened to go past a woman with a terrier and spaniel (past as in within a few metres, not within normal lead distance) and the terrier ran out and bit her, but because she was closer to them and not us then it was considered her running up to the terrier. I mean no one owns the park, so just because you wish to use a certain area of the park with your problem dog then what then says it is out of use for other owners. Yes we should all try to be nice and give everyone space, but this is an over-populated tiny country, it is not really feasible.

Another issue I have found is people with dog aggressive dogs still thinking they are right to walk in woodland where people cannot see you coming at a decent distance to recall their dogs. A problem dog is inconvenient, and really does limit you, thats why most people try to socialise to prevent issues.

The most important part in my opinion is nothing the another dog does short of it trying to kill your dog deserves serious injury or attempts to kill it, so if by dog aggression someone means their dog wishes to kill or seriously maim other dogs, then muzzle it, at all times.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

i come at this from a slightly different angle.

i walk the four farm dogs every night, the largest of which can be very dog aggressive with dogs she dosent know. while i do sometimes put the smaller dogs on leads and take them onto the public dog walking area (they are all very sociable with other dogs/people and have perfect recall, i wouldnt take them out if they didnt), neither myself or anybody else takes the bigger dog out of the fields the farmer owns.

the problem is that one of these fields backs onto the public park (separated by walls and gates obviously). if there are a lot of dogs about, or i can hear a lot of shouting and whistle blowing, i wont walk the dogs in the area of the field near to the park. bit of a pain in the neck, but makes life easier.

however on a couple of occasions i have taken this precaution, only to have an out of control dog clear the two dividing walls and run across half an acre of land to get to my dogs. i can stop the big dog when she gets upset/angry, she will listen to 'leave it' 'down' and so on, but on one occasion she has nipped another dog (when the owner decided to stand at the gate and try to call the dog back, ignoring my shouts to come in and get it) when i tried to push it away from her and it snapped at me.

the dog never leaves private land unless a vet trip is required (should that ever arise, she has a muzzle), she is very well trained and will play and interact with people and the dogs she knows. myself and others take all reasonable precautions to keep her away from unknown dogs. i dont feel its fair to her, or reasonable to us, to say she should be muzzled just in case someone else cant control their dog to the extent that it will clear two walls and cross at least half an acre of land without paying the slightest bit of attention to them to get at other dogs. 

nor should i have to walk a dog that has perfect recall on a lead on private land just on the off chance that the above situation happens.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I have a dog aggressive GSD who I took on at 11 months. He has 100% recall, as long as there isn't a dog which he perceives to be within his territorial range. For that reason he is never let off the leash in an urban area, where a dog can suddenly come out of a gate, or a park with twisting turning paths, where a dog can suddenly appear around a corner.

I do not muzzle him when he's out. He's pretty much frightened of other dogs and feels I am in danger so need protecting, but is learning that he has to trust me to protect him. Consequently if a dog rushes towards us he will bark and growl, but stay seated beside me while I say "no". If a dog went for him he would protect himself, but I'm not prepared to muzzle him in these situations, sorry.

We have recently began going on GSD organised group walks and he wears a muzzle on those, because I let him off and he's in a group of sometimes 20+ dogs. 

I do, however, let him off the leash on large beaches, big fields and in forests where there is a large single straight path (there's a brilliant one about an hour from us) where I have a clear view all around and have no problems.

We were on the beach on Monday and there were a lot of people with dogs. Skye was off the leash and every time I saw a dog approaching and getting near his 'safe zone' I called him, put him on the leash until they'd walked past and then let him off again. Consequently we had a lovely walk on the beach for an hour without any incidents at all.

As far as other people's dogs are concerned, I'm sorry but I subscribe to the view that if a dog doesn't have 100% recall, or the owner has no control over the dog, then it shouldn't be let off leash in a public place such as a park.

Owners of reactive dogs have just as much right to be in a public park as owners of non-reactive dogs.


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## SmexyHerps (Dec 14, 2012)

But why have you just mentioned staffies and dobers? labrador's can be aggressive aswell, its the upbringing not the dog breed itself. Anyway, I agree but don't just blame dogs with bad rep's, if a (eg jack russell was aggressive then that should have a muzzle surely? Maybe I just misunderstood?:whistling2:


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

miss_ferret said:


> nor should i have to walk a dog that has perfect recall on a lead on private land just on the off chance that the above situation happens.


Like I said several times in my starter post, I'm talking about PUBLIC walkways/parks. Your own/private land is a more complicated issue : victory:


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

SmexyHerps said:


> But why have you just mentioned staffies and dobers? labrador's can be aggressive aswell, its the upbringing not the dog breed itself. Anyway, I agree but don't just blame dogs with bad rep's, if a (eg jack russell was aggressive then that should have a muzzle surely? Maybe I just misunderstood?:whistling2:


Oh just because last time I spoke about this I was verbally attacked by a staffie owner saying me and me 'poofy dogs' didn't understand s^%$t so I thought I'd start out by making it clear I'm not singling out those types of dogs as I've had them and understand both sides as I've been told to 'get yer dug muzzled' when a yorkie came over to bark in my Minty's (staffies) face. Luckily I wouldn't dream of walking a breed with such jaw power that was reactive to these poochies --- going off on a tangent there :whistling2:

Poiiint of mentioning them was I have dealt with those breeds without the need for muzzling, as they were well trained 

I now have a standard poodle, toy poodle, Jack Russell and on occasion my mothers Springer spaniel.


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

feorag said:


> Owners of reactive dogs have just as much right to be in a public park as owners of non-reactive dogs.


By your story you seem to have your dog trained, which is great - you have taken the time to make sure your dog isn't a danger. There's a difference on having reactive and out of control dogs and reactive and controlled : victory:


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## SmexyHerps (Dec 14, 2012)

Tanzer said:


> Oh just because last time I spoke about this I was verbally attacked by a staffie owner saying me and me 'poofy dogs' didn't understand s^%$t so I thought I'd start out by making it clear I'm not singling out those types of dogs as I've had them and understand both sides as I've been told to 'get yer dug muzzled' when a yorkie came over to bark in my Minty's (staffies) face. Luckily I wouldn't dream of walking a breed with such jaw power that was reactive to these poochies --- going off on a tangent there :whistling2:
> 
> Poiiint of mentioning them was I have dealt with those breeds without the need for muzzling, as they were well trained
> 
> I now have a standard poodle, toy poodle, Jack Russell and on occasion my mothers Springer spaniel.


Hmmmm okay:whistling2: It does annoy me when you get people who buy dogs cause of their reputation and so it can go with their "badman/ hard" image. But yeah I get ya now...I think


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

SmexyHerps said:


> Hmmmm okay:whistling2: It does annoy me when you get people who buy dogs cause of their reputation and so it can go with their "badman/ hard" image. But yeah I get ya now...I think


Sorry I was trying to condense a long story there xD

Yes I agree, I hate the stronger breeds being used as a status symbol... my dads dogs were show dogs and my granda started out as just wanting a litter for his favorite bitch. All our dogs are and were amazing family pets...

So I find it sad when I hear about staffies/rotties getting singled out and put down for being poorly trained on a lead... yet yorkies/shih tzus, lhasas get away with it... why I put in my starter post about risking your dogs life - is it worth it? people hear 'staffie' 'rottie' 'Dobbie' etc and often the fact they were the ones on the lead go out the window :banghead:


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

I understand where you are coming from.
I have three dogs my male is large dog aggressive (well actually, he hits them with his chest to move them away from him he has never bitten)
He's fab my other dogs and other dogs on walk.
I will not muzzle my dog because 
1) if he was to be attacked he will not be able to protect himself.
2) I keep him under control, he listen to me no matter what, you could have a steak in your hand and he will still come to me first.
3)dogs should only be off lead full stop if their owner has 100% control aka the dog listens to them.
it an owners responsibility to bring their dog up dog socially polite. a polite dog will not run up to another dog
a polite dog will not jump all over another dog or person.
When approaching another dog, my dogs are polite, they do it calmly they present their rear which again is doggy manners.
Owners should not let their dog run upto another dog off lead or on lead, onlead (HELLO IDIOTS) there is a reason THAT dog is on a lead. Off lead its common sense before you let your kid run upto a dog on the street, you ask the owner "is your dog alright with kids" its the same with dogs on dogs. their risking their dogs life by letting it run up to another dog or another person, that person or dog could have a serious fear or injury and all of a sudden a dog come bolting up to them WTF.
I brought my boy up correctly, he loved everything from my chickens to my ferrets....until i was walking him on a lead and what happens, some idiot let their dog off lead, he nearly killed my boy twice and he's simply to nervous around larger dogs now after i work my back side off bringing him up correctly only for it to be ruin by an idiot owner.
Every day several times a day i walk my lot, if i see another dog, i stop, the person see's me with my lot on leads and will put their dogs on lead. when we come together say hi or what ever we ask if our dogs are friendly, if so we let them off for a play that is what being a responsible and polite dog owner is, bring your dog up to be polite around people and other dogs, or they are going to get snapped at and start a fight.
As for an idiot bringing a their dog aggressive or people aggressive dogs to a public area where there are going to be other dogs and people...they need a kick up the backside......go there when it is less occupied plonka. for your dogs safety and others, don't take your spoilt bullying kid to play ground do you.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

I've tried 5 different muzzles on my bulldog and in the end got a special hand made bulldog one off the net but as his muzzle is almost non exsistant he can get it off so I can't muzzle my dog .


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

jaykickboxer said:


> I've tried 5 different muzzles on my bulldog and in the end got a special hand made bulldog one off the net but as his muzzle is almost non exsistant he can get it off so I can't muzzle my dog .


Buy English Bulldogs Muzzles. Leather and metal muzzles available


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## TractorTotty (Jun 3, 2013)

I was actually just coming into this section to post a new thread about a woman today who walloped my 7 month old staffy pup over the head with her bag because HER chihuahua approached HIM and the woman 'panicked' thinking "oh god it's one of those horrible dogs" and 'got in first' - in her words.

I was walking along the beach with my partner and our two staffies, they were both on lead trotting along to heel next to us as always, not on lead because they are aggressive or badly behaved in the slightest, but out of courtesy for everybody else because there were lots of children playing on the beach whom we were wandering past, along with lots of other dogs and people, and I think it is just respectful in a public place. Like most staffies, my 2 are fantastic with people, children especially, but I know from experience that some parents are still wary if they see certain dogs wandering around near their children off-lead and I do not want to make anybody uneasy - I might know how well-behaved they are, but thats not to say that everyone should assume so. 

My dogs are both very well socialised, and very polite, they do not run off up to other dogs or people, even though the pup especially loves other dogs, and we live on a farm so they are well used to having the run of our land but I normally do keep them on a lead in public places, mainly because we get so frowned upon otherwise.

Going back to the story, we were casually strolling along chatting and all of a sudden a teeny tiny little chihuahua ran up to us, jumping all over Chester without any sort of introductions. Chester was a bit taken aback by this purely because it caught him unawares as he was snuffling about in the sand but he unsurprisingly by no means showed any aggression, and went into the play bow stance back at the chi. All of a sudden the woman/girl who was with the chi and had been walking along not far from us talking absent mindedly on her phone, had come running over, shrieked and brought her (not little) handbag down right on Chester's head, and grabbed her dog!

It took me completely by surprise, it seemed that she had been not far being her dog when it ran over. It all happened so quickly and I stood there shocked for a second before I could confront her. She was quite hysterical, for what reason we were unsure as nothing had actually happened, apart from my dog had been walloped over the head for no reason!

Her excuse for hitting him was "its one of THEM dogs - I know what they're like! I was getting in first before it KILLED my dog!!"
I couldnt quite believe what I was hearing, and all the fuss that she was creating was causing a bit of a scene. 
The beach was very busy and there were plenty of other dogs & walkers, some very close by, and a kind gentleman stepped in and said that he had seen the whole thing and that my dog had not done a thing, merely reacted to her dog's play advances by returning the playfulness! He also told the girl that he had seen her chihuahua run up to countless dogs on the beach, some on leads, some off, harassing them to play, and that he had actually seen a black labrador snap at the chi as a warning to go away, something which apparently the girl had failed to even notice as she trailed along behind on her phone.

I have gone off topic a bit here but to add my bit to the original post, if my boys were a danger to other dogs or to the public, I would either just not take them into public places as they have nearing 1000 acres of our farmland to run around on and they only come into public places to accompany us when we go somewhere, not specifically for 'walkies' (although I know not taking them out in public is not an option for everyone) or I would muzzle them. It would be as much for their safety as everyone elses. No, they cannot defend themselves if they are being attacked by another dog, but neither can they defend themselves to the authorities when they are the ones being penalised for injuring or biting another dog, even if it was in self defence. Better to be safe than sorry, I say. I wouldnt risk losing my dogs for anything, even if it did mean them having to be muzzled in a public place, it is definately worth it rather than risking their lives.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

At the end of the day I think everyone should be responsible for there own dog. If your dog isn't good with other dogs for whatever reason keep it on lead around other dogs (just as if its not good with kids keep it on a lead around kids) so it cant approach them while your working of fixing the reason for the dislike. like wise if your letting your dog off lead (friendly or otherwise) make sure it will come back to you and not rush up to others or keep it on a flexi or long lead. Simples problem solved. 

Ive never see a park where there is an area for letting dogs off lead and I don't see why people should be banshed from enjoying parks, beaches ect if they are controlling there dogs, people cant be responsible for the actions of other owners. So if an owner allows there dog to run about making a nuicence of its self at the end of the day its the owners fault if something happens to there dog (gets a warning bite, hit by a car, gets lost, gets stolen ect) and they have failed there dog. Of course if someone had a dog that was aggressive to the point where it would attack any dog that get close enough you would think the owner would chose to either avoid the busy times if the know the area will be very busy or will take a route the will keep them out of the way.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Also it depends on what your classing as aggressive, some people will get upset if another dog gives there dog a warning and call it aggressive but the dog is just telling the other dog to bugger off. I don't see a problem with that. My girl one day was nipping a dogs back legs (tipical breed trait) I told her off for it and she did it again so the other dog told her off, it was a growl and a fake bite. She didn't get hurt and they didn't fall out but it sure did stop her nipping its legs again. It wasn't being aggressive it was just telling her off.

I was walking my girl in the field the other month when I saw two dogs off lead come around the cornor but no owner so as I allways do I called my girl back (I make sure the other dogs are friendly befor allowing her to greet them). We slowly carried on up the path, one dog wasn't paying much attention but the terrier was staring at us. I recognised the dog as we had met it once beofr and the owner had said its not good with other males and had hurd from another walker it had run across the field to attack her boy. As we got to the cornor I could then see the owner way back with two kids. The dogs came over for a sniff allthought my girl wasn't happy about the terrier and was trying to get away (he was very in your face and pushy), then the owner saw us and came running over shouting at me to keep away from her dog. I couldn't beleave her nerve shouting at me to keep away because she let her dog off lead with no control over it and not even watching it properly.
She then tried to catch him but couldn't as he would come back, then later hurd her shouting again so I assume he had run off after an old guy and his dog that we had passed earlier. She had a flexi lead in her hand as well but chose not to use it. 

If im walking my girl off lead I keep an eye out for other people and dogs, when I see them coming she goes back on lead, if the other dogs are friendly she can go off to meet them and play. If not she stays on until we pass then she can go back off. If im coming up to an area where I cant see properly she goes back on. I brought her a flexi lead for busy places so she can have more freedom but can still be kept away form others. (I use to have to keep her away as she had no manners and would jump all over others but now she is afraid of people and will often run around them barking if I allowed her to). 

As a responsible owner its my job to prevent my dog from bothering others. however there will allways be accidents yes, dogs have there own minds and we cant allway know exactly how they will react in every situation, but owners should do all they can to prevent there dog from getting in trouble.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Rogue665 said:


> Buy English Bulldogs Muzzles. Leather and metal muzzles available


That's we're I got it from I had to take 6 different measurements but he still gets it off as his muzzle is near on non exsistant he just pulls its down with his feet


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## ChazzieJo (Jun 14, 2012)

If your dog has poor recall, don't let it off the lead, that's my opinion on the matter. My girl isn't fond of strange dogs and if I see one approaching I put her back on her lead out of courtesy (her recall is brilliant). She's never attacked another dog but has been involved in dog related incidents, always due to strange dogs - normally huge ones such as Labs running over to us whilst she's her lead, at my side, and jumping all over her. More often than not, I don't even receive an apology from the owner.


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## akuma 天 (Apr 15, 2008)

I completely agree that the general perception of what is aggressive and what is just rough play/manners has become distorted and too soft amongst the "designers dog" fad that is in trend at the moment.

There are half a dozen regular dogs that Ripley plays with down at the local park including several labs, a boxer, a rotty and a few cross breeds. When they get together either a couple of them, or god forbid all of them together they make a right racket rolling around play fighting and wrestling. To the untrained eye it must look like we own an impromptu dog fight club, in reality at the first whimper or yelp they all back off and give each other a moments time out before having back at it.

Of course if it ever did kick off, we'd all pile in and break any nastiness up, but the looks we get from some of the other dog walkers, and general members of the public is pure disgust, and yet it is our dogs that are best socialized and least likely to be aggressive because they are getting a healthy amount of rough and tumble with each other.


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

I completely agree, like I said in my starter post that I get so frustrated with people not controlling their dogs in the first place.


But again, I'm talking about taking responsibility over your OWN dog : victory: when I talk about 'aggressive' I'm talking about to the point when your dog becomes a /danger/ to another dog, irrespective if they are on a lead! Like Bryonyrose said, why gamble with your dogs life? 


I just wouldn't personally take the gamble having heard countless times of dogs getting destroyed because they've reacted to a dog running up to them on a lead. 

My standard poodle used to be terrible on the lead, it seemed to be more of a jealousy problem (as he is a clingy dog) and 90% of the time people just assumed because he was a poodle with a 'funny' haircut he was going to be friendly - for 6months I walked him with a muzzle while I trained. He picked it up much quicker than that but I wanted to be sure that he wasn't going to react if a dog ran up to say hello or even dogs on a lead that other owners allowed to wander over to me/my other dogs. Now he's a friendly greeter and accepts that other dogs are allowed near me. It was hard work but I didn't accept that behavior from my staffies and our dobbies so I damn well wasn't going to let a poodle away with that behavior! :lol2:


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

Since my dog has been attack twice one by American bulldog when Sheldon was on the lead and by a shar pei when he was off lead no where near the dog, the stupid bitch holding the lead dropped it and we where about 20ft away minding our own business this dog charged at him and attacked now sheldons hackles go up when he sees a dog. My personal view is if your dog is aggressive to other dogs/people it should be muzzled and kept on lead because as a responsible dog owner you are protecting your self from getting prosecuted and your dog getting taken off you or pts


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Today I had to take my snake to the vet early morning, so I took Skye with me and we had a lovely walk along the river bank and a swim in the river in the town where the exotic vet is based.

I didn't have his headcollar, I just took a rope slip lead which I keep in the car for occasions when I decided to take an impromptu walk. We walked along a 'promenade' alongside the river bank until we left the town centre behind and then got down by the river and he had a 10 minute swimming session. We had no problem at all, whatsoever, every time we passed people I called him to heel and he walked close to heel until they'd passed and when I saw a dog I put the slip lead on and we passed without any problems.

When we got back to the main 'promenade' which leads into a park, I saw ahead of me a black spaniel off lead charging towards a Labrador ahead of me - couldn't work out who or where the owner was. Eventually he appeared, the Labrador passed and the spaniel carried on. So I put Skye on the lead and at the point where the path split before we reached them I took the high path cos they were on the low path. The spaniel of course came charging over, Skye barked and the spaniel ran back to the owners, but of course it left Skye upset and pulling on the lead to get to the dog. I couldn't believe it when the guy turned to me and said that his dog was on a harness because harnesses made it easier to control dogs!! I wanted to say that it would be a courtesy for him to attach the lead to the harness when other dogs were approaching, because not all dogs were non-reactive, but to be honest I couldn't be bothered! I'd like to see him control Skye on a harness with a dog in his face :roll:


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

lisadew24 said:


> Since my dog has been attack twice one by American bulldog when Sheldon was on the lead and by a shar pei when he was off lead no where near the dog, the stupid bitch holding the lead dropped it and we where about 20ft away minding our own business this dog charged at him and attacked now sheldons hackles go up when he sees a dog. My personal view is if your dog is aggressive to other dogs/people it should be muzzled and kept on lead because as a responsible dog owner you are protecting your self from getting prosecuted and your dog getting taken off you or pts



Only thing with that is i know of responsible dog owner who have muzzled and leaded their aggressive dog and some idiot lets their dog approach their dog and a fight started and the one with the muzzle was not able to defend itself and ended up in surgery for several hours for several months.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I was walking my two dogs in a forestry and a guy with a rotweiller on a lead came around the corner as he saw my dogs he pulled the lead out of the guys hand and attacked my Staffie, my American Bulldog then jumped in and the owner just stood there, it was then up to me to pull 3 dogs apart 2 of which were very big and one I didnt know, whilst I shouted at the owner to pull his dog off, luckily none were bitten just a lot of noise and clashing of heads but that is the only time I have even seen agression in my two dogs with the Staff being 5 and the AB 4. I keep my dogs on a lead around other dogs because I do not trust other peoples dogs and if mine were attacked and something bad happened you know which dogs would get the blame.

I walked past a lady with two collies once who decided to give me a piece of her mind about my choice of "dangerous dog" all the time whilst her dogs pulled on their leads and growled whilst mine didnt even look in her direction and stoood calmly next to me, kind of ironic hey!?!


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## akuma 天 (Apr 15, 2008)

The thing about muzzles is they should only ever be a stop gap tool and not a permanent solution, but again in today's quick fix society "you should put that dog on a muzzle" is all too common.

I'd prefer to the turn of phrase to go more like "you should train that dog not to need a muzzle".


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Rogue665 said:


> Only thing with that is i know of responsible dog owner who have muzzled and leaded their aggressive dog and some idiot lets their dog approach their dog and a fight started and the one with the muzzle was not able to defend itself and ended up in surgery for several hours for several months.


On the North East walk yesterday once things had settled down and we split into groups, we were walking in a group of 4 dogs, 2 bitches and 1 other dog and I took Skye's muzzle off for the first time near dogs and he was great. We did put it back on when we walked back to the main group, which was just as well because there were 2 dogs who were very reactive (the owner had tried to buy a muzzle on the way to the walk and the shop didn't have any!) so they didn't want to let them off.

They did get them off and their behaviour wasn't too bad, but the male (who he's fostering) took against Skye and kept hassling him. I know that if Skye hadn't been muzzled that could have turned into a dog fight, which is the last thing I want to happen, so we will carry on with our "slowly, slowly, catchee monkey" approach rather than risk a setback.

But I can tell you I was unbelievably chuffed because that was a major step forward.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I do understand the fear a muzzled dog will be attacked, but there are head collars that claim to close biters jaws. Then if you need to let go then they can have at defending themselves, but at least it is your call


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## ChelsNLuke (Jun 23, 2012)

It also can damage other dogs psychologically as well as physically. Dora has always been great with other dogs but she does tend to get excited so she has always been put back on the lead and then let off to play if the other owner wants or not let off at all if it is busy. And she never was wary or nervous around other dogs.

A few months ago we were walking up an old industrial park disused quarry thing and Dora was off the lead . She was walking within a meter of us and was just plodding a long enjoying the walk . There is a big hill to go down and also to the right of the top of the hill is disused land so we gave her a drink there and were about to put her on the lead because we would soon be on to the main road . Next thing we know three rottweilers( the breed has nothing to do with it) charged round the corner and headed straight for dora by this point she had already been put back on the lead they were snarling and growling and getting ready to attack her but she just stood there in front of me we were backed into a corner. Just as Luke was about to scare them off their owner ran about the corner and shouted at them when he finally dragged them away he kicked them in the side and just ignored us. 

Dora is now not her usual self when on walks she always used to wag her tail and perk up at the sight of other dogs now she is very wary especially if the other dogs are off the lead and she is on the lead. She isn't physically agressive but she is on the defensive when we pass a group of dogs. 

It's a shame because she used to enjoy playing and used to greet other dogs happily but now she is only comfortable around a dog on it's own and feels threatened by groups.It is really odd that she has been so changed though because when she was about 2 a lady was walking three pugs and they were all off the lead dora was on the lead and two off them jumped up and latched onto her face and she just shook them off.

Sorry for the long post just thought I would share that long lasting damage that isn't physical can be caused too. 

-Chels


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

Kare said:


> I do understand the fear a muzzled dog will be attacked, but there are head collars that claim to close biters jaws. Then if you need to let go then they can have at defending themselves, but at least it is your call


My male has his head halti, works fab highly recommend it anyone who needs an almost quick release muzzles, he can still play/eat/drink and most importantly pant, But when i need him focus on my and complete control of his head, its a great tool.


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok I am talking as a new puppy owner. Her recall is not perfect yet and we do let her off lead on the chase if we have a good view and the area is clear. If people or dogs are approaching we lead her in case the other dog is not friendly. To us teaching politeness involves allowing her to greet others with the owners permission. In parks/public areas I keep her on lead if it is busy as she is still easily distracted and let her off if its quiet. 

While I have sympathy for dog aggressive/fearful owners and dogs it seems wrong to dictate to other owners of sociable dogs what they should do and where they can go. However sociable dog owners do need to be aware not everyone is as lucky and be able to keep their dog under control for the benefit of their own dog and other dogs.

Surely if all owners used common sense and gave a little consideration to others most of the issues would be resolved.

ETA We do use a harness as I am afraid of the damage to her neck rather than ease of control or aggression.


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

If i had my way every single dog while out in public should be muzzled, caged muzzle though for easy breathing, that way no one will get bitten or nothing with get bitten, unfortunately irresponsible animal owners are not likely to follow the law. sociable dogs will still be able to play while muzzled and unsociable dogs will get no where during an attack


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

As I said, I just see it as a courtesy to have my dog under control when I see other dogs and this has nothing to do with the fact that he is reactive, because my previous dogs haven't bee.

ChelsNLuke is right though regarding psychological damage a dog attack can do to a dog. My Labrador was attacked when he was a pup and it really frightened him. After that he adopted the "attack is the best form of defence" approach and met every approaching dog with his hackles up and looking quite fierce. If the dog didn't reciprocate he would relax immediately and make friends.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Rogue665 said:


> If i had my way every single dog while out in public should be muzzled, caged muzzle though for easy breathing, that way no one will get bitten or nothing with get bitten, unfortunately irresponsible animal owners are not likely to follow the law. sociable dogs will still be able to play while muzzled and unsociable dogs will get no where during an attack


What a sad world that would be where you couldn't throw a ball for your dog or play with any toys when out. Also that the dogs would be forced to have one on its face which many would properly find uncomfortable and prevent things like licking. My girl loves to give her friends kisses.

The best way to prevent most dog attacks is propper training and socialization. Any good owner with a dog with issues would be working on fixing the issues while trying to prevent there dog starting trouble.
I say most dog attacks as while we have dogs as pets there will be attacks, mainly by the types of owners who shouldn't have any pets.


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

PPVallhunds said:


> What a sad world that would be where you couldn't throw a ball for your dog or play with any toys when out. Also that the dogs would be forced to have one on its face which many would properly find uncomfortable and prevent things like licking. My girl loves to give her friends kisses.
> 
> The best way to prevent most dog attacks is propper training and socialization. Any good owner with a dog with issues would be working on fixing the issues while trying to prevent there dog starting trouble.
> I say most dog attacks as while we have dogs as pets there will be attacks, mainly by the types of owners who shouldn't have any pets.


Forgive me but i could of sworn i said in public did i not?


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Rogue665 said:


> Forgive me but i could of sworn i said in public did i not?


Yes which unless you have your own private land is where most walk there dogs, public parks, fields, beaches etc.


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm sorry without my dog playing things like fetch (what he needs his mouth for) he would be climbing the walls or trying to chase cars even more, why should my dog be punished for the idiots who can't be bothered to train or socialise their dog the only people who should muzzle their dogs is the ones that are aggressive


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

lisadew24 said:


> I'm sorry without my dog playing things like fetch (what he needs his mouth for) he would be climbing the walls or trying to chase cars even more, *why should my dog be punished for the idiots who can't be bothered to train or socialise their dog the only people who should muzzle their dogs is the ones that are aggressive*


If you're referring to my starter post o.0 If you have your dog trained so its not going to bolt up to the first dog it see's/bite a dog for coming in it's face I don't see any reason why a well trained, well socialized dog should be muzzled.


I dunno, I have been talking about this lately to my friends/colleagues and 90% of them are in agreement that they wouldn't gamble their dogs lives - if its going to bite something that runs over to it it should be muzzled. 

I done it with my poodle till he was socialized and trained out of it. I just struggle to understand these people who think "Why should I, there dog is off the lead" because at the end of the day, you're walking an animal in a public area that will bite a dog in range... irresponsible and so easily prevented. Guess they will learn when the dog warden comes a knocking....


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

Rogue665 said:


> If i had my way every single dog while out in public should be muzzled, caged muzzle though for easy breathing, that way no one will get bitten or nothing with get bitten, unfortunately irresponsible animal owners are not likely to follow the law. sociable dogs will still be able to play while muzzled and unsociable dogs will get no where during an attack


This is what I was on about, my dog when off the lead doesn't go far from me especially when playing fetch and when we play fetch there can be dogs walking past him and he doesn't care he doesn't go up to them the only time he says hello to them is when other people's dogs come over to him and then it's a quick hello and he back wanting me to play ball. The only time I keep him on lead is near roads because he wants to chase cars and he stays on lead when there's people playing football because he wants to play


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Rogue665 said:


> Forgive me but i could of sworn i said in public did i not?


Not sure where you play catch, other than in public areas? 

I mean we are not hard up, live in a rural area, 3 bed semi, with a good sized front and back garden, but still not enough room for a good game of fling.

More often than not we play at the local beaches or the Trust headland...but on rare occasions we pretend we are townies and visit a local park!!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4942908885842&l=4246567686701785355


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm the same, reasonable garden, but no chance for Skye to get a good load of air through his lungs by running. As a GSD he stays close when he's out with me, so he a good game of 'fling' gives him the exercise he needs and he loves it. Can't play 'fling' in a muzzle!

However, he doesn't get that game unless we are in a large field, as it appears with Kare, so that I have a good all-round view, the beach when the tide is out for the same reason and if I haven't time to drive there, then we go to an industrial estate where there are no residents and I can see clearly all around and we play there.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

feorag said:


> I have a dog aggressive GSD who I took on at 11 months. He has 100% recall, as long as there isn't a dog which he perceives to be within his territorial range. For that reason he is never let off the leash in an urban area, where a dog can suddenly come out of a gate, or a park with twisting turning paths, where a dog can suddenly appear around a corner.
> 
> I do not muzzle him when he's out. He's pretty much frightened of other dogs and feels I am in danger so need protecting, but is learning that he has to trust me to protect him. Consequently if a dog rushes towards us he will bark and growl, but stay seated beside me while I say "no". If a dog went for him he would protect himself, but I'm not prepared to muzzle him in these situations, sorry.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this, we got a 12yo GS cross last year who's a bit unsure of other dogs, she hasn't made any move to bite any but she does bark at any strange dogs that approach us and stands with her tail up and feet apart. We do exactly the same as you and call her over if it looks like other dogs will approach her however she will ignore other dogs when off-leash if we're playing fetch with her. 

When we got her from the dogs trust we were well warned about letting the dogs off leash and were told that if any incident occurs between a dog that's off-leash and one on-leash then the owner with the off-leash dog is generally the one that's to blame.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That's very typical GSD behaviour. They bark! And bark! And bark! But that doesn't necessarily constitute a prospective attack.

When we go on our GSDR walks, in the car park waiting for everyone to arrive it's mostly barking dogs and every time a new one arrives the barking increases. That's just the way they are imao and that's why I so enjoy these walks, because I'm surrounding by GSD owners who understand them as a breed and I don't feel that I have to constantly apologise for my dog's behaviour! 

You should try it! These walks are held all over the country, every area is covered and I can't recommend it highly enough.


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

feorag said:


> That's very typical GSD behaviour. They bark! And bark! And bark! But that doesn't necessarily constitute a prospective attack.
> 
> When we go on our GSDR walks, in the car park waiting for everyone to arrive it's mostly barking dogs and every time a new one arrives the barking increases. That's just the way they are imao and that's why I so enjoy these walks, because I'm surrounding by GSD owners who understand them as a breed and I don't feel that I have to constantly apologise for my dog's behaviour!
> 
> You should try it! These walks are held all over the country, every area is covered and I can't recommend it highly enough.


I love how German Shepherds talk to you, my mums old boy Manson who looked like your Sky would howl when it was dinner time. I decided to change breeds after my black short haired Boy Dante died as i was heart broken got to say even tho I love Sheldon and wouldn't change him for anything but theres bits I miss from German shepherds so if I was to get another dog it would be another German shepherd


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

Not quite on topic but related we are trying to teach our socialise our mini mutt and we need to be near other dogs to do that. She needs to learn to speak dog and that means other dogs. A person could not learn French without hearing it a dog cannot learn to speak "dog" with out hearing it.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

lisadew24 said:


> I love how German Shepherds talk to you, my mums old boy Manson who looked like your Sky would howl when it was dinner time. I decided to change breeds after my black short haired Boy Dante died as i was heart broken got to say even tho I love Sheldon and wouldn't change him for anything but theres bits I miss from German shepherds so if I was to get another dog it would be another German shepherd


Yup! Skye is very vocal. When he's excited and on lead and I remind him he's supposed to be at heel cos he's edging forward I always get a 'whinge' never fails. When Barry lies on the floor and Skye sees him he rushes over and throws himself at Barry and squeals and sings with joy! It's so funny to watch.



kemist said:


> Not quite on topic but related we are trying to teach our socialise our mini mutt and we need to be near other dogs to do that. She needs to learn to speak dog and that means other dogs. A person could not learn French without hearing it a dog cannot learn to speak "dog" with out hearing it.


I have to agree. Skye has never understood 'dog language' because he wasn't socialised as a puppy.

I take him to dog socialisation classes at a local training centre. He's probably the oldest one there, cos most of them are puppies, albeit big ones like a few Leonbergers and a recently arrived St Bernard. I make him wear a muzzle because he's unpredictable, but he's learning how to read body language and which dogs to avoid and which dogs to approach. At first he didn't understand the concept of a dog jumping in front of him barking and tail wagging, inviting him to play - it seemed to terrify him, but we're slowly getting there.


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

feorag said:


> I have to agree. Skye has never understood 'dog language' because he wasn't socialised as a puppy.
> 
> I take him to dog socialisation classes at a local training centre. He's probably the oldest one there, cos most of them are puppies, albeit big ones like a few Leonbergers and a recently arrived St Bernard. I make him wear a muzzle because he's unpredictable, but he's learning how to read body language and which dogs to avoid and which dogs to approach. At first he didn't understand the concept of a dog jumping in front of him barking and tail wagging, inviting him to play - it seemed to terrify him, but we're slowly getting there.


 
She wants to greet everything and everybody we are working on it but there is no quick fix. We have got puppy classes booked and she will be 15 weeks by then but dogs on walks that bark at her for excitedly jumping around their faces are part of the learning process and in time she will learn to approach calmly.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

feorag said:


> That's very typical GSD behaviour. They bark! And bark! And bark! But that doesn't necessarily constitute a prospective attack.
> 
> When we go on our GSDR walks, in the car park waiting for everyone to arrive it's mostly barking dogs and every time a new one arrives the barking increases. That's just the way they are imao and that's why I so enjoy these walks, because I'm surrounding by GSD owners who understand them as a breed and I don't feel that I have to constantly apologise for my dog's behaviour!
> 
> You should try it! These walks are held all over the country, every area is covered and I can't recommend it highly enough.


i'm not sure we'd qualify for a GSD walk, we're not totally sure our girl is a GSD cross though she has the correct colouring for it. 

As i say she's never actually attempted to bite but even we can see that her body language says "back off, not interested" when approached by a strange dog. If the other dog can't take the hint then she barks and lunges.

We're not really sure of her background but she's always had a problem with letting other dogs sniff her bum. She's 13 now and despite exposing her to friends dogs the behaviour hasn't really stopped or gotten better. 

It's very annoying, people aren't shy in telling us she should be muzzled, fact is if they had control of their own dog she wouldn't be a problem. She'll happily allow another dog to walk calmly past her or approach her slowly but she gets nervous when other dogs charge up.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

These are walks arranged by GSDR (German Shepherd Dog Rescue) but all breeds are welcome. We always have 2 JRTs (which we call our mascots) and if you checked out the thread I put up of photos taken at our last walk on Sunday there was a Border Terrier which joined us. 

When we went to Holy island for our February walk we had 4 black labs and a gold one. And the other month we were joined by 2 Weimaraners. The Yorkshire walks regularly have a Rottie, 2 Dalmations and a mongrel, so I wouldn't worry about whether your dog is a cross at all - it will be made welcome.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

feorag said:


> These are walks arranged by GSDR (German Shepherd Dog Rescue)


I am not sure you should write this. The walks (on the whole) were originally arranged by GSDR members yes, but I think you will find they were all declared independent of GSDR.

In one way to protect the rescue from being held accountable if an accident or any injury occurred on a walk, but also because some of the best people that arranged them and took a very active part in GSDR left after asking questions over being suspicious about misappropriation of funds by the rescue and being attacked rather than receiving an open answer, which of course is against the law for a charity.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

feorag said:


> These are walks arranged by GSDR (German Shepherd Dog Rescue) but all breeds are welcome. We always have 2 JRTs (which we call our mascots) and if you checked out the thread I put up of photos taken at our last walk on Sunday there was a Border Terrier which joined us.
> 
> When we went to Holy island for our February walk we had 4 black labs and a gold one. And the other month we were joined by 2 Weimaraners. The Yorkshire walks regularly have a Rottie, 2 Dalmations and a mongrel, so I wouldn't worry about whether your dog is a cross at all - it will be made welcome.


I had a little look at the website and the walks don't seem to happen in Scotland. Never mind.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Kare said:


> I am not sure you should write this. The walks (on the whole) were originally arranged by GSDR members yes, but I think you will find they were all declared independent of GSDR.
> 
> In one way to protect the rescue from being held accountable if an accident or any injury occurred on a walk, but also because some of the best people that arranged them and took a very active part in GSDR left after asking questions over being suspicious about misappropriation of funds by the rescue and being attacked rather than receiving an open answer, which of course is against the law for a charity.


I'm not sure about any of this, but I will see what I can find out.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Kare said:


> I am not sure you should write this. The walks (on the whole) were originally arranged by GSDR members yes, but I think you will find they were all declared independent of GSDR.
> 
> In one way to protect the rescue from being held accountable if an accident or any injury occurred on a walk, but also because some of the best people that arranged them and took a very active part in GSDR left after asking questions over being suspicious about misappropriation of funds by the rescue and being attacked rather than receiving an open answer, which of course is against the law for a charity.


I've spoken to Jayne Shenstone regarding this and this is her reply.

_"The walks are arranged by GSDR volunteers but we would find it difficult as an organisation to get third party liability insurance for these events therefore it was decided that dog owners must take responsibility for their own dogs. Since most people have insurance on their dogs, they will have cover for this."_



This is clearly stated on the Facebook walk pages so everyone is aware that they must be responsible for their own dogs, however, it's still GSDR, via their volunteers, who organise the walks. So I don't think I was wrong to say that.


_"GSDR has produced accounts every year since it was formed - originally we were German Shepherd Rescue UK which I formed in Scotland. The only reason for change of name and dissolving the old company was that you can't transfer a Scottish company to England. _

_As for suspicion of 'misappropriation of funds by the rescue', their accusations were totally unfounded and all questions were answered by our accountant. The accounts all related to the company and not the charity since we didn't become a charity until March 2011 and accounts were not due until this year. How anyone can write such crap is beyond belief since the accounts were all available from Companies House. The charity accounts were recently submitted so they are also available." _

I don't know if this is good enough for you, but if it isn't maybe you'd like to provide proof of these accusations against GSDR?

GSDR has just been on the receiving end of more crap from the ex-members that are, no doubt, the same ones you are speaking of. They are at the moment rescuing GSDs in Romania and have already brought some in. Jayne offered a beautiful girl a place and booked her transport for next month, so she was marked as reserved to GSDR. Within minutes, the rescue in Romania received 2 private messages from ex GSDR volunteers now running their own rescue, telling them not to give her to GSDR because Jayne would put it to sleep!! 

Now what was the point of that? And why would a rescue go to all the trouble of rescuing and bringing a dog over from Romania just to put it to sleep, when Romania are doing such a good job of that themselves, GSDR could have just left her there if that was their intention!

Anyway that's my point and Jayne Shenstone's, so if you have proof please pm me with it.

And apologies to the OP for taking over the thread.


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

Kare said:


> Not sure where you play catch, other than in public areas?
> 
> I mean we are not hard up, live in a rural area, 3 bed semi, with a good sized front and back garden, but still not enough room for a good game of fling.
> 
> ...


I live in the valleys so everywhere everyone walks their dogs in lanes/farm fields, mountains etc because there are no dog parks anywhere.
or no where secure, without this problem of dogs running riot.


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## Rogue665 (Mar 17, 2010)

PPVallhunds said:


> Yes which unless you have your own private land is where most walk there dogs, public parks, fields, beaches etc.


I live in the valleys so everywhere everyone walks their dogs in lanes/farm fields, mountains etc because there are no dog parks anywhere.
or no where secure, without this problem of dogs running riot.
the only public areas where people take their dogs on leads are to the shops, dogs should be muzzled at times like this.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

control your animals...

all dogs should be under full control... period.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

feorag said:


> I've spoken to Jayne Shenstone regarding this and this is her reply.
> 
> _"The walks are arranged by GSDR volunteers but we would find it difficult as an organisation to get third party liability insurance for these events therefore it was decided that dog owners must take responsibility for their own dogs. Since most people have insurance on their dogs, they will have cover for this."_
> 
> ...


I was never involved in the GSDR rescue, other than once trying to rescue a dog for myself through them and getting about 3 phone calls, each about a month apart and each being for a preinterview/set date for homecheck call with noone ever being free to do a homecheck...only for the process to be repeated. The dog I wished to rescue was sat on their website this whole time, but no idea if this was a lack of updating the site or the person really was so useless he sat in rescue this whole time whilst I was offering him a home.

I was told through a facebook general announcement post about the money queries, and know from general discussions on facebook pages this was the reason GS Elite exists (the charity the leader of local walks is a member of) and that there are emails that maybe the responses were not... well answered in the most professional way. But you answer as though I am responsible I have not claimed that there was misappropriation of cash, just stated that people left because they believed there was, or rather that there was a split due to the responses to queries, this is a fact. The walk groups seem to continue as always.

I was invited to join the local walk group by a local friend, over say what a year or two they have been running I have attended maybe 3 walks EVER. However as an early member of the groups I did back a year or so (before any falling out/split) receive an email stating originally that the local walk was not to be called a GSDR walk, as the charity did not wish to be held responsible. GSDR was removed from the titles of their facebook pages for each walking group. Although the local walk was still on the GSDR site when I last looked it is far from run by GSDR members. Which to me would make their site just a list of these walks rather than a list of walks they run. Which lead me to say I am sure what I did about being "NOT SURE" you should write they are GSDR walks and "I THINK" you will find because the original email was pretty strongly worded about not making the charity responsible/liable as far as I recall.

I don't know if this is good enough for you, but if it isn't maybe you'd like to provide proof of these accusations against GSDR?

This is pretty aggressively worded, I was not a member of GSDR I am not a member of GS Elite, the GSD rescue I am interested in is completely independent of either, so you can stop treating me like I am involved or making accusations when what I have stated is people left after concerns were raised, and seeing as the reply you got back this up as a fact, people did raise concerns which were answered by her accountant I do not see how that makes me in the wrong?

Edited to add- I heard from one upset party one side of a story, you hear from another upset party the other side. I have no doubts the true story lays somewhere in the middle ground, seems the main query is whether full answers were given or not (maybe they were given and not understood). I do not care, it happened to other people a while ago now.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Rogue665 said:


> I live in the valleys so everywhere everyone walks their dogs in lanes/farm fields, mountains etc because there are no dog parks anywhere.
> or no where secure, without this problem of dogs running riot.
> the only public areas where people take their dogs on leads are to the shops, dogs should be muzzled at times like this.


Yes but if it was law it would be like picking up after your dog, you must do it unless you have the land owners permission. So when walking in the fields you would need to find the farm who owns the fields and get there permission.

I'm in the same sort of area as you but I'm not in the vallys, places I have to walk are fields, mountain if I can be asked to drive 5 mins, beaches and the normal parks (not dog parks just nature parks) but all would come under a muzzle law just like there dog the act that means we must pick up after our dog


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Kare said:


> I was never involved in the GSDR rescue, other than once trying to rescue a dog for myself through them and getting about 3 phone calls, each about a month apart and each being for a preinterview/set date for homecheck call with noone ever being free to do a homecheck...only for the process to be repeated. The dog I wished to rescue was sat on their website this whole time, but no idea if this was a lack of updating the site or the person really was so useless he sat in rescue this whole time whilst I was offering him a home.
> 
> I was told through a facebook general announcement post about the money queries, and know from general discussions on facebook pages this was the reason GS Elite exists (the charity the leader of local walks is a member of) and that there are emails that maybe the responses were not... well answered in the most professional way. But you answer as though I am responsible I have not claimed that there was misappropriation of cash, just stated that people left because they believed there was, or rather that there was a split due to the responses to queries, this is a fact. The walk groups seem to continue as always.
> 
> ...


Sorry if you think that was aggressively worded, but at the end of the day you have said this on an open forum that anyone can read, so it seems fair to me to put the other side of the argument. I agree there are always 2 sides to any argument and everyone will draw their own conclusion, but they should hear both sides before drawing that conclusion.

The question of asking for proof seemed a fair point to me, because of the accusations you were making. Whether you were involved or not and whether they were your accusations or not you repeated them on an open forum.

And I feel that if you don't care now, then you shouldn't have posted it on an open forum in the first place as this was never part of the discussion thread.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I never saw any aggression in Eileens reply but I sure did in yours Kare :gasp: Surely you can provide some proof if what you say is true?


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> I never saw any aggression in Eileens reply but I sure did in yours Kare :gasp: Surely you can provide some proof if what you say is true?


I have to agree with this, Eileens post is calm with info from named people. Your post was little more than malicious speculation, which you later admitted you actually knew little about.


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

Whoa okay can you guys please not get into the German Shep argument if it's going to get nasty - I have seen similar arguments on facebook/dog forums even a bloody pet cult on vampirefreaks! I don't claim to know the full details of the story/charity... only that every time something pops up around that the various rumors surrounding it make everyone go KA-BOOM :eek4: 

Lets keep in mind that slander is taken seriously on open forums and we are all adults : victory:


Now... 

I've been very impressed with a lot of you guy's responses! :2thumb: it makes me happy to know that there are more responsible dog owners out there making public parks safer every walk they go on!

I actually had a weebitty of a falling out with my neighbor...















Because her Maltese got under her fence (again) ran up to my cat who was lounging in the path just outside my fence, yipping it's wee face off... which promptly got swiped at for interrupting her beauty sleep. Poor wee _Snuggles_ got scooped up by her hysterical mother who proceeded to scream at me (equally enjoying the sun just the other side of my fence) that I "should have that thing destroyed" I did try to calm her down and explain that the one inch graze on *_Snuggles'_ nose wasn't too bad and she should maybe get her fence fixed... _Snuggles_ was 'rushed' to the vets and I can 'expect' the vet bill and she 'will be taking this further'. I swear to god, people are the problem not animals. :bash:


Now where to get a cat muzzle to fit my cat :hmm:














*_Name of the victim has been changed to protect it's identity..._


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

My pup has had similar cat related incidents, as a result she has now learned to stop tormenting the cat when he growls. The grazes are barely visible after 24 hours and unless bleeding loads or swollen and red after a few days do not need a vet.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Tanzer said:


> she 'will be taking this further'. I swear to god, people are the problem not animals. :bash:


I'd like to see her try to do that, to be honest. There is such a thing as 'trespass' and if she knows the dog can get under the fence and there is a cat living next door, then she should be watching her fence!

And I did apologise for 'taking over the thread' for a moment, because I felt an accusation like that needed to be addressed on an open forum, so both sides of the argument can be seen for readers to draw their own conclusions - which has now been done. So agreed - back on topic :2thumb:


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## Tanzer (May 13, 2012)

Oh I'm not worried about it personally, there's not much she can do. Yes my cat is bigger than her dog, but her dog is constantly escaping and isn't that friendly...personally I am surprised the little yap hasn't been seriously hurt - she's just lucky we live in a cul de sac (no busy roads and generally no wandering dogs). 


And I did see that feorag, thank you : victory: I just didn't want it continuing like I said its not fair to the charity all this 'he said she said :censor:' so I'd rather not have it!


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## Stephan Grundy (Jan 28, 2013)

My Norwegian elkhound can be quite aggressive with other dogs, so I never let him off-lead in public places (happily, my house includes a very large, stone-walled courtyard, as this is a very energetic breed that needs a *lot* of free running-around time). I don't muzzle him, though, as I feel that I have full control of him; and if he were to be attacked by a large and aggressive free-roamer (assuming that I were unable to head off the situation before it got started, my solution of choice), I would prefer for him to have a chance to defend himself. The same goes for my wolamute - not muzzled on walks, but always on-lead except in our own fields - though she is not at all aggressive with other dogs, and her size and possibly wolfly scent generally serves as a deterrent in any case. 

The crucial thing, in my view, is maintaining control of the dog, whether by perfect training, leash control, or, if necessary, a muzzle. Obviously perfect training, allowing a dog to roam in a park or the like with relative freedom while maintaining control and safety, is the ideal; leash control is practical and fairly certain; but sometimes, depending on the dog and the circumstances, a muzzle may indeed be necessary.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Tanzer, if she brings a vet Bill tell her to shove it where the sun don't shine, legally she is in the wrong , in fact if the dog is not friendly and you believe it may injure you on your property that would come under the dda as the dog was not permitted to be there. They would also be liable for any damage there dog did on your property, I'd remind her of that.

We had a simpler thing when we had new nabours they complained because our rabbit attacked her cat who came in our garden to try to kill our guinea pig. Our reply was that it would teach the cat not to trespass.


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