# Bombshell!



## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

I've just finished a phone conversation with out EHO, a very helpful chap called Mike.

Finalising dates for our inspection for our PSL and DWA. I asked a few questions about things we've not covered yet or that I didn't know. Imagine my surprise to be told, as answers for several of the questions, "I don't know the answer to that right now, i'll check and get back to you *as you are the first person going for the licence in this district i'm not too sure"*


"I'm the only one?" (he must have heard something in my tone of voice at this point)

"er yes *cough* er well yes you are, the less said about that the better"

"yes I think I know what you mean, moving on"

Looks like some people living in this town are being very naughty people indeed! In quiet little mansfield, who'd have thunk it.


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## mrchimps (Sep 10, 2007)

*dwa*

don't wnat to hijack the thread, but whats the punishment for having a dwa without licence? How do they find out, word of mouth and tip offs?


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

It is Mansfailed Down, most recognised for their appauling football team. Notts county all the way:lol2::2thumb::notworthy::no1:. Im not surprised tbh mason, they do it everywhere hey theres probably some in ilkeston.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Jb1432 said:


> It is Mansfailed Down, most recognised for their appauling football team. Notts county all the way:lol2::2thumb::notworthy::no1:. Im not surprised tbh mason, they do it everywhere hey theres probably some in ilkeston.


 
I'm a forest fan so say what you will about the stags 


I am not surprised that people are keeping without a licence ( I already knew for a fact it was happening, not at all but I did think there might be at least one or two legit keepers. Obviously not.

He's decided he wants to do it in seperate stages, we're doing the PSL first (in mansfield DC DWA are excluded from the PSL) then the DWA. I wasn't actually wanting to apply for the DWA this year but he does seem really keen to crack on, it may be in my best interests to get the licence under my belt now as the guy seems really helpful and very curious about the whole process. He even said he might be able to do it without a vets inspection which would considerably improve my initial costs. I'll be annoyed if I decide to wait a year only to have to include an inspection at a greater expense. 

Again this is something i've never heard, I thought it was mandatory, I know it differs from council to council but he thinks if I'm only keeping one type of animal on my DWA ( ie only snakes) then just the safety checks and public liability insurance will suffice and there will be no need for a vets inspection, especially if he can re-use the information he gathers on the care the animals get when he inspects for the PSL. Anything that saves me money is a bonus. I just need to secure a quote for the insurance side of things now.

this is very different to the processes people with DWAs in other counties that I have spoken to have had to go through though.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Remember you have to pay the fees again every January though, so you're essentially paying now for the August, Sept, Oct, Nov & Dec - whereas the same fee in January, would pay for a full 12 months. This applies to all PSL and I am pretty sure all DWA too?

I know DEFRA is discussing making it 24 months but this is not in action yet, so currently it makes more sense financially, if you don't need it urgently, to not start a new license half way through the year.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Yeah I know, unfortunately the PSL we have to do, I did discuss getting a rebate or a discount as i'm effectively paying for 8 months I can't use and he did say they had a process for dealing with that.

One thing I did consider Christy was this:

I think it'd be amazingly lucky not to need a vetinary inspection for the DWA, given that the DWA costs £164 and if I do have to pay for the vets inspection that would rise by a further £2-300. Doing it sooner rather than later means i'm paying 164 out now that I'd not planned on but next year, come renewal time, i'll only have to pay the fees again, as far as I know you don't need a vets inspection when renewing, just when initially applying.

If I wait and apply next year chances are i'll get stung for the vets fee as part of the intitial application, if doing it now means avoiding that expense (and having to listen to someone who *we* have to tell which medication/dosage to use judge me on my suitablility to keep reptiles!) then it may just be worth the cash.

No decisions made yet, the inspection is for the PSL, but he wants to chat about the DWA at the same time.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Yeah if that's true, then I suppose it is definitely worth considering doing it in advance, I am lucky in that my PSL includes a vet inspection as mandatory, and the vet will do a DWA evaluation at the same time, at no extra charge, so as long as we were having DWA/PSL at the same time there is no extra charge to us for the DWA inspection. You may want to ask if the PSL comes with a vet inspection, because it really should include that in the fees, and if it does, you may be able to ask the vet for a quick DWA eval. at the same time.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Definately worth considering. He's coming round to the house for a chat soon, there's several things i'm hoping to discuss including some kind of leeway/rebate/discount (anything!) because i'm paying so late in the year and paying for both at once.

Then it'll just be a matter of having a "holding animal" (the copperhead i've always fancied more than likely, as I know sami likes them too) as I don't beleive it's possible to have the licence with no animals on it, i'll have to stick something on. We've gopt plently of things to talk to each other about, fingers crossed we won't have to jump through too many hoops for it. The PSL is a priority, something that needs to happen, the DWA was a bonus we were planning on doing this time in 12-24 months and is certainly far from essential.


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

Don't bother with DWA your council will say you are not licensed and they are right you are exempt. They are not allowed to put that condition on your license its illegal. My council were a bit funny and I checked with defra and there is nothing they can do about you keeping DWA if you have a PSL.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i'll send you some copperhead pics next week mason if i find some... you might get a hoot out of it... i'll try to document a capture... habitat pics, the discovery and decent pics of the animals.... a gravid female would be nice... sorry about stepping on the thread....: victory:


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

The only thing the Model Pet Shop Standards say is the following:-

13. DANGEROUS WILD ANIMALS
13.1 When dangerous wild animals are kept, the cages must be of a secure
construction appropriate to the species. A fine wire nest, glass or plastic
safety barrier must be incorporated into the cage system.
13.2 Licensees selling animals on the Schedule to the Dangerous Wild Animals
Act should inspect the purchaser’s licence to keep such an animal and
inform the issuing authority of the details of the purchase.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Doodles said:


> Don't bother with DWA your council will say you are not licensed and they are right you are exempt. They are not allowed to put that condition on your license its illegal. My council were a bit funny and I checked with defra and there is nothing they can do about you keeping DWA if you have a PSL.


I suspected as much, he was very vague when I asked if I needed a DWA on top of the PSL.



HABU said:


> i'll send you some copperhead pics next week mason if i find some... you might get a hoot out of it... i'll try to document a capture... habitat pics, the discovery and decent pics of the animals.... a gravid female would be nice... sorry about stepping on the thread....: victory:


 
Go nuts mate 

They are a species i've always loved, I think thye look fantastic. I've only really come into contact wiht a few, 4 adults and two very, very tiny (but with the biggest attitudes ever!) hatchlings. It's either that or a 'bino crotalus of some sort


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

Got some nice Albino WDBs at the moment if you get your license sorted.:whistling2::whistling2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

note to self... go to copperhead ridge on mackletree bridle trail off of forest road 2, past cemetery of settlers... bring camera, water...and snake bag.... :2thumb:


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Doodles said:


> The only thing the Model Pet Shop Standards say is the following:-
> 
> 13. DANGEROUS WILD ANIMALS
> 13.1 When dangerous wild animals are kept, the cages must be of a secure
> ...


Thanks man.

while i've got you do you mind if I pick your brain a bit just to clarify my understanding. I don't intend on selling venomous but still would like to check my understanding of the process, obvisouly at some point i might sell on something of my own to make way for a change of species or plans, who knows.

If you approached me wanting to buy a naja naja I would:

Ask to see your licence.
Call your issuing authority to check:

the licence is valid
the licence has 'space' for more animals on
the licence is appropriate for the species in question
Take a copy of the licence (not sure about this bit, i've only ever had one venomous seller mention this)

Anything else? Any of that above complete crap?


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Doodles said:


> Got some nice Albino WDBs at the moment if you get your license sorted.:whistling2::whistling2:


you sir, are a twat  :lol:



HABU said:


> note to self... go to copperhead ridge on mackletree bridle trail off of forest road 2, past cemetery of settlers... bring camera, water...and snake bag.... :2thumb:


you also. As you're american and may not get "twat" i'll go with "jerk"

I'm just sooo jelous! best we can do "herping" in our area are a few common frogs and a grass snake once in a million years.

Not only do you have fantastic native herps (not that we don't, but ours are not abundant) but you don't pay 12 bucks a gallon for petrol either!

:2thumb: :notworthy:


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

Mason said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> while i've got you do you mind if I pick your brain a bit just to clarify my understanding. I don't intend on selling venomous but still would like to check my understanding of the process, obvisouly at some point i might sell on something of my own to make way for a change of species or plans, who knows.
> 
> ...


Thats pretty much it. I take a copy of the license and then write *copy not to be used for futher purchases* across the license as I have heard of a few dodgy people who have used copies of others licenses so I like to make the buyer feel safe. 

I sure you would anyway but make sure the person really knows what they are doing. Just because they have a license doesn't mean they have a clue.


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

Mason said:


> you sir, are a twat  :lol:



So my Wife keeps telling me:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

petrol has dropped a bit here.. it's down to $3.75 a u.s. gallon still way too high.... and i do know what twat means..it is used here occasionally.... you could always come and visit......i have a 70,000 acre back yard after all...:2thumb::lol2: go camping and catch things...and my sister-in-law ccould deliver hot cheeseburgers and kfc daily...oh and the beer, must'nt forget the beer.....:whistling2: haha!


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Cheers mate, I just wanted to test my knowledge really, being honest the only time I can ever see myself selling venomous is moving one of my snakes on to fund another. I don't know how long we'll stick to it but we have both agreed to set a very low limit on the amount of venomous in the place at any one time. 1-3 snakes, so in theory the only sale i'll make is to move one on if a change is needed for whatever reason.

No plans at all to breed venomous, although I remember looking at my first big boid (adult burm) and thinking "why would anyone want a snake that big", look where that bloody got me!  so you never know.

I can't imagine assist or force feeding neonate pit vipers is a very relaxing experience.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

HABU said:


> petrol has dropped a bit here.. it's down to $3.75 a u.s. gallon still way too high.... and i do know what twat means..it is used here occasionally.... you could always come and visit......i have a 70,000 acre back yard after all...:2thumb::lol2: go camping and catch things...and my sister-in-law ccould deliver hot cheeseburgers and kfc daily...oh and the beer, must'nt forget the beer.....:whistling2: haha!


 
Too high? 40 litres cost me (the equivalent of) $110US yesterday. Thats 110 dollars for under ten gallons!  :lol:

you have no idea how appealing that is to me. Camping and herping (and beer). In fact we did a bit of camping last weekend (if you can call passing out in a tent after my own bodyweight in alcohol camping).


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

Mason said:


> Cheers mate, I just wanted to test my knowledge really, being honest the only time I can ever see myself selling venomous is moving one of my snakes on to fund another. I don't know how long we'll stick to it but we have both agreed to set a very low limit on the amount of venomous in the place at any one time. 1-3 snakes, so in theory the only sale i'll make is to move one on if a change is needed for whatever reason.
> 
> No plans at all to breed venomous, although I remember looking at my first big boid (adult burm) and thinking "why would anyone want a snake that big", look where that bloody got me!  so you never know.
> 
> I can't imagine assist or force feeding neonate pit vipers is a very relaxing experience.


You say only a few but as you know it never works that way! Force/assist feeding isn't too bad once you have done it a few times. I do find it quite scary though but see that as a good thing.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

cvg- greater cincinnati international airport...... i'll come and get you.... bring some gear...


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Very very true, but I just find (fat fingers!) that it's much easier to make a mistake with tiny things than it is with larger.

Like you say though it's much preferable to be wary than cocky.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

HABU said:


> cvg- greater cincinnati international airport...... i'll come and get you.... bring some gear...


If it was that easy i'd be there in a shot.

Commitments etc.

I can however offer to meet you in egypt in september?  come and get a bit of "poking about under rocks" done with me and Sami 

We really should seriously consider sorting something out for one year though. Do it plenty in advance and get a decent 2-3 week trip over your side of the pond sorted.


I will also make sure I shout your way next time i'm in the states on business. Texas (fort worth) though.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Doodles said:


> You say only a few but as you know it never works that way! Force/assist feeding isn't too bad once you have done it a few times. I do find it quite scary though but see that as a good thing.


 
I dont find it too bad either I do it with tweezers and a bit of sponge to pin the head, id rather do that than a bigger venomous, touch wood I havnt had to.

Also when I have bought snakes no one has contacted my council to check the license is valid.


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2007)

I have phoned councils and they have always been yeah whatever. They really don't care as they already have your money


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you mason or anyone else is welcome to come and see me here in the sticks. i would very much like for some great rfuk'ers to go on an expedition here with me... i am stunned each and every time i set foot outside my house....i feel guilty at times knowing that so many serious and wonderful people should be here with me as i explore and come across things, not only herps but every other aspect of a complete ecosystem...but they aren't. this is an amazing place.....the season is almost over...it's in it's zenith....i would love nothing more than to show off a portion of wild america with rfuk'ers......alas, disney world or new york will always trump me.... this place makes you think...and ponder where you stand in the scheme of things...it is beautiful and full of life...


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

HABU said:


> you mason or anyone else is welcome to come and see me here in the sticks. i would very much like for some great rfuk'ers to go on an expedition here with me... i am stunned each and every time i set foot outside my house....i feel guilty at times knowing that so many serious and wonderful people should be here with me as i explore and come across things, not only herps but every other aspect of a complete ecosystem...but they aren't. this is an amazing place.....the season is almost over...it's in it's zenith....i would love nothing more than to show off a portion of wild america with rfuk'ers......alas, disney world or new york will always trump me.... this place makes you think...and ponder where you stand in the scheme of things...it is beautiful and full of life...


We've been talking about this Habu ... 

We'd much rather come herping with you than go to Disney World, and New York? No ta. 
Only other places in America I'd be tempted by are Miami (Miami Ink) and LA (Kat Von D's place)
We want holidays that we can do something interesting on! 

Maybe something to look at for next year's holiday


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

where i am living isn't mine... it belongs to the world... i'm just fortunate.... very much so..: victory:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Mason said:


> I've just finished a phone conversation with out EHO, a very helpful chap called Mike.
> 
> Finalising dates for our inspection for our PSL and DWA. I asked a few questions about things we've not covered yet or that I didn't know. Imagine my surprise to be told, as answers for several of the questions, "I don't know the answer to that right now, i'll check and get back to you *as you are the first person going for the licence in this district i'm not too sure"*
> 
> ...


*A PSL exempts you from the DWAA!*


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

I cant imagine why people should be allowed a Pet Shop Licence wwithout having a vet inspection. Personally I believe that ALL pet shops should have regular vet inspections to keep the standards up. This may make me unpopular, but it is my own opinion, there are too many pet shops out there keeping animals in substandard conditions and this needs to be stopped. Apart from that it would be very arrogant of any person setting up their first pet shop to think they knew everything they needed to know, so much so that they did not want a vet involved. I believe that we should work together with vets. We have a fantastic relationship with a few vets, sometimes we learn from them, sometimes they learn from us and other times we learn together. Things are constantly being updated within animal welfare and care, as well as health and safety. It would stand you in good stead to have a good relationship with a local vet.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Can't see why you view should be unpopular, personally I also think that vet inspections should be a requirement.
To be honest I thought that this would be a requirement, so very surprised it is not. 
In my opinion, the PSL should be as tightly controlled as the DWA licence, especially as getting a PSL would appear so easy, and is a way to keep DWA without a DWA licence.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

to clarify a few things:

We're not a petshop, we're not openiong a pet shop.

My local council is trying to make me have a PSL on the grounds I have a website on which we advertise animals. We are therefore applying for a petshop licence 

we will be inspected for the PSL, the confusion comes over the DWA, they are of the opinion I need a seperate DWA and I am not, he also thinks I would not need a second inspection for the dWA (should I need one)


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Mason said:


> to clarify a few things:
> 
> We're not a petshop, we're not openiong a pet shop.
> 
> ...


What the Local Authority is doing is _Ultra Vires_ (i.e beyond the power of the law). You cannot be licensed under PSL to specifically advertise, or indeed trade over the internet. A PSL, is just that a Pet Shop Licence, a license to operate a shop. You can operate a PSL from home, but it not applicable if you purely are trading over the net. 

If the Local Authority did issue you with a PSL, which may well be convenient to you, this would also exempt you from the DWAA. The argument that you would need a separate DWAA is the fact you are ‘keeping’ the animal, and not offering it for sale. This is a correct interpretation in law but be counter by setting a price for the animal. It would be highly unusually for an individual to hold a PSL and a DWAA at the same address! 

In due course the Pet Vending legislation is likely to make Internet Trading a licensable activity, but not for the foreseeable future.


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