# Should we be allowed to keep primates privately?



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Obviously this week has seen some 'serious' responses to primates on/in this forum, which have also led to some heated discussions.

2008 is the year set to see the introduction of the primate code of practice.

The one question that burns holes atop of the sectors against the private keeping of primates is 'Why should private keepers be allowed to keep primates in the first place?'

It is after all a very fair question, so many people have dim views when it comes down to ownership, enclosures, diet and overall accomadation of this species within the exotic field.

Many exotic keepers themselves are against the keeping of primates in comparison to other exotic animals.

What is/are your views, should private keepers be allowed to maintain primates?

Personally, l think that all keepers should be allowed to keep the exotic of their choice that they wish to, providing that they meet the right criteria for the animals welfare.

It is not just down to the right habitat, diet, stimulation, behaviour patterns,animals rights but also down to the acceptance that it is a 100% committed responsibility of ownership.

The talk of the primate codes of practice are that they will be possibly quite severe and strict, this l think is a good policy to follow.

Perhaps disturbing is that there is talk that ownership will be restricted only to what is considered specialist keepers, and l am guessing they may be referring to the likes of institutions, centres and the likes of zoos. But perhaps it could be slightly more in-depth than that?

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/primate_keeping.htm

And of course we have the opposition that wish to a complete end to the private keeping of primates within the United Kingdom:

Petition-them.com

So of course this one species - primates is at both the root and the roof of controversy.

Rory Matier
PKL: Pro Keepers' Alliance


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

I believe that the introduction of the primate code of practice will be beneficial to primates welfare as long as the code is thought out and conceived by as many experts and people in the field as possibly. If the code does only allow what are deemed specialist keepers keep primates then surely specialist training should be made available to people who want to keep primates, as long as they have valid reasons and can prove they will offer the best possible environment and care to the animals.

I personally would never dream of keeping a primate, i could not afford or devote enough time to it. This isnt to mean i dont agree with primates being kept by people. I see the exotic pet trade as something growing and not always for the good. If it appears fashionable to have an animal that isnt the standard domesticated stock then eventually people who have neither the understanding or the time will end up with animals that will get mistreated and abused. I have seen many exotic mammals being sold by what i see as not all that reliable and reputable shops. How long before a story emerges of a primate dying or having to be rescued due to lack of care. 

I cannot explain why other exotic keepers are against the keeping of primates. Is it because they're concieved as truly wild animals, thing you expect to see on David Attenborough programmes rather than in someones home? Is it that they resemble humans alot closer than say a snake or lizard? Whenever i see primates in captivity i can see such a human element to their movement and especially in their eyes. I do understand that primate keepers want to keep them for exactly the same reasons i keep reptiles, because i respect them, am interested and want to learn and care for them.

Psychologically and behaviourally primates are alot more complex than many other exotics kept. Research is continually discovering new behaviour and complexities of primates. I dont believe we understand many primates as well as simpler exotics that are commonly kept. Are primate keepers involved in this research? 

Just out of interest is there a rough figure for how many primates are kept privately within the UK? Is this on the rise?


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## eowyn (Mar 2, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> all keepers should be allowed to keep the exotic of their choice that they wish to, providing that they meet the right criteria for the animals welfare.


 
that pretty much sums up my opinion - i don't think we should be looking at legislating against private ownership of any species, including primates. However I would like to see some assessment of an owners ability to keep successfully. (I realise with many species, probably more so with reptiles there are widly differing views on husbandry, so am aware that it is problematic)

FWIW I think the system of assesment you use at TSKA is an excellent means of assessing suitability, and ideally suited for primates and the like (and before anyone starts i dont know Rory or Nerys in the slightest, and have no affiliation whatsoever  - but i have read the website and all the recent arguments) I suppose my ideal situation would be one where private primate keeping is allowed, but that all sales etc go through channels in which appropriate assessments can be made. Similar to DWA but with additional focus on environment/stimuli etc necessary for primates, which might not be so significant for a DWA snake for example . . .

xx


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I say no.....

Simply because primates display and possess a higher intelligence than many other animals and their needs are much harder to meet given that they require so much environmental enrichment that can be fairly complicated and company of their own kind. Not to mention the fact that they have never truly been removed from their relatives of the wild variety and still posses the ability to maim humans.

Marina


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

There seems to be no process to stop morons from having children so why stop them having monkeys too?

(Thats not to suggest that all monkey keepers are morons. Im just suggesting that if incompetent people can 'keep' other humans then why not monkeys?)


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## viper362 (Mar 4, 2007)

Tops said:


> There seems to be no process to stop morons from having children so why stop them having monkeys too?
> 
> (Thats not to suggest that all monkey keepers are morons. Im just suggesting that if incompetent people can 'keep' other humans then why not monkeys?)


good point tops


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## annewynne (Jan 5, 2008)

*exotics/primates*

a person who can and will look after an animal(diet,housing,enrichment,interaction etc.) and continue to do this,also learn and recieve advice,look up about the animal before rushing in to get them,knows of a vet(when needed) and has the time and money- in my mind should be able to have what ever they wish,people have kept primates for years,this i know,other exotics now owned and for sale(new to people as pets) whats the difference,from a mouse to a primate if all the above is adhered to.


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## phil the drill (Dec 15, 2007)

yes we should be allowed to keep them just because its classed has an exotic pet does not mean we have no knowledge of them if anything you have to have certain knowledge how to keep them and get there enviroment right yet some of these animals have just come off dwa i dont think therse been one case were a marmo /squirrell /tamarin has attacked and caused serious damage the most your likely to get is a scratch the antis should concentrate on more dangerous pets witch this year already has clamed two lifes ie rottweilers these in my opinion should be on dwa there a lot more dangerous than a primate but the idiots out there who try and make the rules are opposed to exotics in captivity dont think of a dog being dangerous perhaps its to simple for there little brains to cope with . i would imagine that one breed of dog in this country amounts to all the exotics kept in this country that we try and keep and look after the best we can (rant over )


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

rottweilers shouldn't be banned at all, as a former owner of these dogs I can honestly say that brought up correctly with a firm hand these can be some of the most wonderful animals to own.

the incidents were these attacks took place were in the dogs environment were unknown/non 'pack member' people entered, then the children were left ALONE with these dogs...also to add they were GUARD DOGS!!Trained to be aggressive for crying out loud.. yes it's devastating what's happened to the kids, but no blame should be put on the dogs when it was the owners and guardians responsibility. I wouldn't leave a child alone with any animal..not even my baby rats!

Yes primates shoud be able to be kept, however there should be certain requirements that must be met. Glorified parrot cages are all to common place and that needs to stop. People need to stop seeing them as substitute children and see them as highly intelligent,sociable creatures who need more than a cage and a cuddle.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

as long as requirements are met I dont see why not, there should be a DWA style license on them to stop muppets getting their hands on them but to ban them completey is stupid and unnessesary.


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## annewynne (Jan 5, 2008)

in all honestly i think we should have to pay for a licence for all pets,years ago we had dog licences.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I have mixed feelings on this issue right now.

Whilst I beleive that we should all have the right to keep and care for whichever animal we choose, I beleive also that primates NEED a good COP in place to ensure they are in the right envirnment with a good keeper.

Is the proposed removal of them as a privately owned species being put in place because it is easier to ban than to regulate the keepers who wish to work with them?

I feel the removal of primate species off the DWA was a bad desicion. I know the DWA is there to protect the public and is not based on the safety of the animal but it did offer some form of protection for primates who were listed. It prevented them from being bought by those under 18, it ensured that the keeper had a suitable enclosure set up before the primate was purchased.

I am not a primate keeper, I doubt I ever will be because I don't see that I could ever offer the time needed to correctly care for a primate species (kids and businesses see to that!) but should a day ever come where I was in a position to offer the correct requirements for primates, I would be happy to abide by a reasonable COP that was based around the primtes welfare and would also be happy to pay a license fee and be subject to regular inspections - something which I feel right now certain species would benefit from.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I believe you should be allowed to keep primates but only once an independent and unbiased inspector has vetted your 'setup' and your knowledge and there should be regular check ups and surprise visits, if you fail to meet the requirements you shouldn't be allowed to have one.

I would personally never even contemplate keeping a primate as I don't think I could give them the level of interaction they deserve and need.

I do believe if it is open to people then there should be no age limit, if you can pass the criteria then you should be allowed to have the animal, I know plenty of 15/16/17 year olds who are far more competent and caring keepers than a lot of 'adults' I know.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I think judging by all that is being discussed with primates in the last few years is that the private ownership sector has not always shown nor displayed infinite wisdom when it comes down the husbandry and maintenance of this species.

Way too many keepers still have single marmosets in parrot cages and smaller, so the enclosures have been inadequate. The acceptance or belief that primates are pets, has also caused major ridicule between authorities, opposition and long term primate keepers. [As in they are not pets, and should not be classed as such]

Diet conflict has also been the subject of great discussion.

Lack of stimulation provided causes again the opposition and those that truly appreciate the value of primates concerns.

Then we have those whom do not understand the importance of the facts that primates should not be kept in solitary confinement and need the interaction of companion primates. 

That the private market has little comprehension of research and still way too many sellers of primates do not request from buyers what research they have undertaken for this species. A reluctance by many novice keepers to meet the basic care and criteria of primates - again a source of conflict.

The lift of primates off the DWA was not the best move for this meant that many primates will now not even be regulated - the DWAL may well not have been the ideal licence, but it did keep tabs on primates that were on the scheme, albeit did not regulate the keeping of marmosets, still one of the biggest sore areas and the most singly kept primate in the UK today. 

There should be a form of regulation on primate keepers, be this a licencing scheme or a registration. How they could police it effictively - well that alone is another matter all together.

Of course the opposition will still feed the lines in of harness keeping and dressing up - but these are terms that l still hear today from prospective keepers of primates:

"I want to walk him in the park"
"I want to be able to have him on my shoulder in town"
"My wife wants to dress them up"
"We want something to be watching TV with us in the sitting room"
"We want something for the kids to play with"
"Our parrot has recently died, we want something to go into the cage - please see the attached photo"
"Are jam sandwiches okay to feed?"
"They don't need anything else as company, they have us"
"Will they be able to play with us in the garden?"
"We thought that they could be our little children, now that the kids have left home"

Terms like this - ARE still very much heard, l hear them, and l too like the opposition, the authorities, the genuine keepers are disgusted by them. But it is little wonder that those that oppose the keeping of primates kick off about the primate market - or perhaps a much clearer term or expression should be the Non Human market.

To reiterate, l guarantee hearing at least one of these terms twice a month at present and they are aimed at Marmosets up to Capuchins.

In many respects l can truly understand why so many oppose the actual keeping of this species.

And let us look at what people refer to as specialist keepers - what does this really imply?

Is it someone who is based at a zoo, game park, education or learning facility? Or is it a recognised body certification requirement that is to be awarded to keepers upon successful completion? Is it not schooling at all, but perhaps a sit down test?

Come on, again how does this get policed?

Personally, as l have already said, yes private sector does have the right to ownership, but politically under the current management of this species by the private keepers at what cost is this having on the future of primate keeping - cost - human cost - animal cost - their lives are at stake.

For sadly under the keeping by many, primates l think are becoming the victims of human error and stupidity.

Time will tell alone as to how primate keepers will fare - and l do believe that the COP will not just be warranted in potential severity and restrictions on how they are kept - but may well be the ultimate deciding factor in whether they are kept at all.

Rory Matier
PKL: Pro Keepers Alliance


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Adverts like this also doesn't help any of the exotic market let alone the primate market:

I would like to think and hope that this is just yet another scamming, l would hate to think someone is letting go of a pair of Siberian Lynx for £600 with no words of DWAL.

But it also does not show - should it be true - exotic rescues in any favourable light.

Here we have a classic case of Diet Conflict and of course an old spec on the Kinkajous.

The sad fact is that many adverts for primates nowadays are falsehoods and scams, but the likes of the opposition do not see that, they do not necessarily see it as such, but just look at poor husbandry and irresponsible ownership.

R

*£600 or reasonable offer
*
Location: *Scotland* 
*Tamed & Loving Primates For Adoption: We are* forced to part with our one year old: -Pair of Greater Bush Baby . -Pair of Kinkajou baby monkeys. -Pair of Siberian Lynx. They are a very friendly and home raise guys. They are wonderful, energetic, inquisitive, smart and tamed.They like to eat whatever we eat and are ok.Their favorite foods are spaghetti,mini marshmallows, but they will eat almost anything.they would make a great addition to any educational program or zoo.they are health confirmed with one year guarantee each.The only reason we are parting with them is because we run a licensed, non-profit, exotic animal rescue and we are in desperate needs of funds right now. I believe we are not asking more than reasonable offer for these magnificent animal. we have no problem shipping . Please feel free to contact us on email if you have any questions or more details.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

there are far too many scammers advertising yes, often giving people a very false view of not only what is available, but also the price they would be looking to pay..

see:

Other Pets classifieds in luton : we have a lovely capucin ready to leave to a pet...

*Luton* we have a lovely capucin ready to leave to a pet loving home.he has all pedigrees and is registered.he is still young and home trained.he has all papers ready and is vet checked.he loves the company of kid and other pets.

Other Pets classifieds in devon : Lovely capuchin monkeys for sale. am a home...

£200 no offers
Location: *Devon* 
Lovely capuchin monkeys for sale. am a home breeder of capuchin monkeys. i now have capuchin babies ready to leave to loving homes and caring families. they are well trained,socialized,diaper train, hand reared and vet checked. they will come with health certificate and veterinarian examination. my babies are ready to go.they will make wonderful co..

Other Pets classifieds in London : my Capuchin baby monkeys are available and set for...

£1,500 
Location: *London* 
my Capuchin baby monkeys are available and set for a new loving family with so much love and affection.They are 9 weeks old now.they are DNA registered and have all their DNA ,health and vet papers.she is up to date on all shots ,vet examined and very healthy, raised around my children and other household pets,they are having a sweet and lovely temperament.They are very lovely and playful,they are diapers trained and have been bottle fed since day one.have very good and lovely personality every heart will desire.They know and response to their names every time you call them.They are coming along with all her,vet and health papers, DNA registration papers and all her cites permit papers, and a year guarantee

Other Pets classifieds in Newcastle : Adorable baby male and female Capuchin monkeys for...

£1,000 
Location: *Newcastle* 
Adorable baby male and female Capuchin monkeys for sale. I have lovely home raised,registered,shotted,VET checked capuchin babies ready to go at 16weeks, i sell with all paper works and health papers. 


Other Pets classifieds in Lancashire : I have lovely home raised,registered,shotted,VET...


£800 
Location: *Lancashire* 
I have lovely home raised,registered,shotted,VET checked capuchin babies ready to go at 12weeks, i sell with all paper works and health papers. 


these are all from just one site, and all from the last week. there are more on other sites, ukclassifieds is one of the worst normally!

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Nerys Post

And of course this is just one of the problems the primate market faces on a daily basis.

We can expect at best fellow keepers to recognise an advert that is not correct. But we can not expect those who do not keep any kind of exotic animal to see them for the falsehood they are. 

Whether our opposition see them as false is debateable, yet it does not matter, for all the problems with primate scams, there are equally as many problems with genuine issues surrounding primate care in the United Kingdom today.

We should not just look at these problems as being for the last few years alone - but also we only need go back 15-20 years when primates were being sold in much higher quantities in pet stores.

The opposition is like an elephant, long memory, they do not forget, and whilst the buying market trundles along in its merry fashion buying, selling, bartering, the opposition as a machine just continually gathers informations on a regular basis to use at the right moment.

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

This is a very, very serious problem.

I have literally just spoken to a lady from ukclassifieds who has these listed below. 

£1000 each and no questions asked.

Oh right, well that is splendid isn't it, dont believe me, then look the advert up for yourself,10/01/2008.

3 Months of age, it is disgusting. I could well have been the RSPCA, antis anybody, and not a question as to who l was. The way l feel l may as well be an anti!!

This sort of unregulated advertising will sink the genuine primate keepers who keep these animals out of passion.

We as a consultancy can be slammed for all sorts of things - BUT we don't do this any of it.

She has already sold the second of the two, being picked up Sunday.

*2 ADORABLE BABY MARMOSETS FOR SALE*
*3 MONTHS OLD*
*MUST GO TO GOOD HOMES*
*Ring for more details*
*1 MALE LEFT!*

*Question? What is a good home then????*


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

one of the only genuine ad's on there at the moment, is for 3 months old marmoset young.. at £1000 each - see rorys post above. 

(that, incidently, and for those who have been following recent accusations of prices being too high... is MORE than the price we, as a broker/consultant, are displaying for common marmies on tska)

i just said to him jokingly, ask her if a suggie cage is ok to keep them in... *sigh*

N


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Okay, so I let curiosity get the better of me and decided to ring the above stated advert.

Now whilst I have a lack of sepcific knowledge with primates and have never personally kept them, I found the seller's information to be worrying at the least.

This is what I was told.

The marmoset for sale is a lone male of just over 3 months old. He is apprently hand tame, feeding 100% independantly of the mother and is running around and such already.

His parents are seemingly kept in a reasonable enclosure which is an avairy of 8x5x7 (LxWxH in feet) but I was told that the baby would be suitably housed in "a large parrot cage with anesting box as high as possible". He should be allowed lots of out of cage time to "run around the house" (with no mention of the precautions needed to ensure his safety).

His diet information was brief althoug I was told I would receive a sheet containing diet information and supplier details upon purchase.

The worrying thing was the seller informed me that a crucial part of my keeping the marmie baby alive was to provide him with a good quality UV light as he required vitamin D3 to replace sunlight.

I was also told he would require additional heating while he was young to the temperature of 25 degrees. As an adult he would not need any heating at all as his body would do that for him.

The seller owns the little ones parents and they seemingly have the required company (thier mate), outdoor aviary (as stated above), correct diet (mention of pellets, jelly etc), nest boxes etc.

What disturbs me as I am a novice exotics keeper compared to many and even I understand the implications of housing a underage marmoset in a parrot cage on it's own and offering him free roam of the house.

I am disturbed that, to me the seller came across as not badly fixed in the knowledge of housing adult marmosets and thier needs yet they seemed more interested in the £1000 than anything else. I had stated I had never owned an exotic animal before, let alone a primate species and that was not a problem for the seller provided the price was met.

What are your views?


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Personally I do not think that primates should be kept in private hands, but I also feel the same about birds in aviaries. The social groupings of primates are too complex to be reproduced properly in captivity unless there is the ability to keep enough to fulfill this, which would mean an enclosure of a size unlikely to be feasible to most people outside zoos and wildlife parks.

That said, i also do not approve of the keeping of many of the species that zoos have, notably elephants, as i do not think that even the best zoo can provide a comparable habitat to that which they would enjoy in the wild. There are enough fascinating species that do not require huge amounts of space which could be kept instead, but zoos are in a way forced to keep ther so called 'Big Five' as it is these that draw the public and therefore make the money for the organisation.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Frogeye 1050 said:


> Personally I do not think that primates should be kept in private hands, but I also feel the same about birds in aviaries. The social groupings of primates are too complex to be reproduced properly in captivity unless there is the ability to keep enough to fulfill this, which would mean an enclosure of a size unlikely to be feasible to most people outside zoos and wildlife parks.
> 
> That said, i also do not approve of the keeping of many of the species that zoos have, notably elephants, as i do not think that even the best zoo can provide a comparable habitat to that which they would enjoy in the wild. There are enough fascinating species that do not require huge amounts of space which could be kept instead, but zoos are in a way forced to keep ther so called 'Big Five' as it is these that draw the public and therefore make the money for the organisation.


 
but surely this same argument could be pointed at most species of reptiles, amphibians, inverts, and common mammals:whistling2:


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## phil the drill (Dec 15, 2007)

*frogeye*

its all very well saying that you dont like to see elephants in zoos if these animals was to be re released in to the wild what would happen they would be poached and killed its a shame i no but man is destroying the jungle the only chance they have to survive is in captivity and the same goes for primates if i can breed any animal im happy im doing my bit towards conservation what i dont like is keepers that have 20 snakes/lizards/frogs/etc in a collection of diffrent species and can never be bothered to breed them at least zoos are trying to breed and keep them alive i can rember ten years ago i wanted to try and breed candoia carinata buying a pair was nearly impossible they were all female and the reason the trappers thought buy catching the big ones they would get more money for them wrong it wos only until word got to them that they needed to catch small ones as these was the males needless to say i never bred them but at least i tried to save them


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

This is in no way meant to sound derogatory Phil but you are effectively saying we shouldn't be keeping animals unless we are keeping in pairs and breeding?


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## phil the drill (Dec 15, 2007)

na not saying that at all i cant see the point of having an exotic animal and not trying to breed it at least in a pair your trying to save the species if its threatned with extinction


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I fully agree for those people who are lucky enough to work with species that are more rare but you must understand most people only get the chance to work with commonly kept species.

There is very rarely leopard geckos or bearded dragons taken from the wild as their captive numbers are so drastic there is simply no need.

If I had to money, I would try to help copnserve some of the rarer species by running a captive breeding program with the likes of Fiji banded iguanas but sadly, for most of us, that is only ever a pipe dream and never a reailty


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I can see what both of you are saying, sadly however, the opposition and even those who don't keep anything do not view exotic keepers as those whom are saving anything under conservation.

We are just pet keepers at best as a term, and bad ones at that as far as they are concerned.

Loosely speaking, yes l suppose in some small way we are 'conserving the species' in, when they are kept as such, their natural state, as in no colour morphs etc. But as the main bulk of animals in the Uk are captive bred and generations of captive bred, we are only conserving captive bred stocks.

But there is no way any of our animals could ever be re released into the wild.

So that will always be seen as the weight around our necks.

R


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Why would they be different to keeping any other pet.....

Aslong as its looked after properly and given the correct facilities what makes it different from a zoo??


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> I can see what both of you are saying, sadly however, the opposition and even those who don't keep anything do not view exotic keepers as those whom are saving anything under conservation.
> 
> We are just pet keepers at best as a term, and bad ones at that as far as they are concerned.
> 
> ...


You are bang on. If i ever hear exotic keepers telling me they're conserving the species etc i take it with a huge pinch of salt. As Rory said they'll never be returned to the wild and your only conserving what is a limited captive bred gene pool. Thankfully reptiles seem quite hardy in resisting inbred problems, primates and mammals however could suffer dramatically. Thats why zoo's have internationally organised captive breeding programmes and stud books to avoid inbreeding. What if an ignorant primate keeper, brought 2 capuchins who were unknown to him related and bred them. Is this fair? 

Exactly how up to speed are people in terms of whats a threatened species? Yes elephants are under threat but are classified as threatened, the 4th category in IUCN listing. Data in terms of snake populations is even smaller, so who really knows whats endangered or relatively common.


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## kitty (Jan 2, 2008)

*monkey*

hi well i think everyone is going to have a totally different view on this topic and that wont change. monkeys are a very inteeligent and facinating and need not say a beautiful animal. some people would love to own them, some people do own them and some people are repulsed by the idea of owning primates.

in my opinion... they are much safer in captivity. the world is so screwed up and its unfair for such beautiful, small animals to have to fight it alone. in a home as a pet/part of the family. they shall never fight for food, never fight for territory, never have to worry about being killed by a predator or simply by humans. humans are killing off much wildlife and the ones that are in homes with lots of love care food whenever they want it ect... are pretty damn lucky. we no longer live as cavemen why the hell should primates

thats just my opinion though. as i already said im sure everyone has different views. : victory:


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Primates are so intelligent - they need constant stimulation. In zoo's they have whole teams of people who work to keep them happy, healthy and stimulated.

Kepping one loan one is upsetting - they need others of their kind.

I think , personally, no. Unless you had alot of land, time and money then no. : victory:


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## thehoghut (Dec 6, 2007)

I both agree and disagree with primates being kept as pets....Let me clarify....other exotics we keep such as lizards,snakes ect quite happily occupy our vivs and don't as such require vast amounts of space as primates do/should.I just don't think there are set ups adequate for their needs in the home.

However where i agree is when certain species are threatened or in danger of becoming threatened in their natural habitat,then there is most definately a need for these species to be kept to ensure their survival or for possible re-introduction into the wild.


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

kitty said:


> hi well i think everyone is going to have a totally different view on this topic and that wont change. monkeys are a very inteeligent and facinating and need not say a beautiful animal. some people would love to own them, some people do own them and some people are repulsed by the idea of owning primates.
> 
> in my opinion... they are much safer in captivity. the world is so screwed up and its unfair for such beautiful, small animals to have to fight it alone. in a home as a pet/part of the family. they shall never fight for food, never fight for territory, never have to worry about being killed by a predator or simply by humans. humans are killing off much wildlife and the ones that are in homes with lots of love care food whenever they want it ect... are pretty damn lucky. we no longer live as cavemen why the hell should primates
> 
> thats just my opinion though. as i already said im sure everyone has different views. : victory:


that is one of the most misinformed posts i have seen to date.

yes they are safer in captivity, but where would they rather be. would they rather be in the wild, with lots of room (alot more room than a parrot cage), with other monkeys (unlike yours) with their parents (unlike yours) and with freedom(unlike yours)?

these animals have evolved to live in the wild, to say "why should these animals have to ... fight for food, ... fight for territory and worry about being eaten by a predator" is rediculous. they live in the wild, they have lived there for millions of years, and continue to do so. that is nature - you cant just collect every single wild monkey there is and put them into homes - it is better for the monkeys themselves to live in the wild.

i can see your point with the whole human situation. however, the way to tackle it is not to remove all monkeys from the wild, but work to protect monkeys in the wild. there are not enough conservationists, zoologists atc working out in the field. if you feel truly passionately about the subject then you can make a differance by helping to protect such animals out in the wild. i hope to do a similar role with reptiles at some stage. that is the thing to do, not argue that the wild is dangerous so they should stop living in the wild.


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## bluetongued (Apr 25, 2007)

Kitty...I cant afford to take my children on holiday this year...and we dont take them to Dysneyland.
I have four children and sometimes they have to wait for my attention.

Should they got to another family of be put in a care home??




> we no longer live as cavemen why the hell should primates


:lol2::lol2::lol2:...I would say grow up but that is not very nice.


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## kirk300780 (Mar 12, 2008)

*primate care*

i personally feel that zoos are there to make money where by personal owners are there for themselves and the animals best interests at heart.

kirk


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## kitty (Jan 2, 2008)

*monkey*

ok just to point out to carby......... he didnt live in a parrot cage!!!!!!! he had plenty of space!!!!! and i cant remember your other comment but u need to get full stories before throwing accusations


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## kitty (Jan 2, 2008)

and to bluetongued. i dont need to grow up. i done a lot of that lately. i didnt mean it how you people are making out. i meant IN MY OWN OPINION which we are all entitled to that i dont think there is anything wrong with keepiing monkeys as pets as long as the owner knows whats what and undrstands the commitment. as long as the human is prepared to put the monkey first and give it the time, money and space it needs then there is no problem. i didnt mean go drag all the monkeys from the wild but captive bred primates are NOT wild and never have been


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

but equally they are not recently domesticated..there is a huge difference between a dog which has been domesticated over thousands of years and primates..even a dog can turn on its owner, primates are much more unpredictable still, however small they may be. and i would never regard them as a 'pet'.

as for knowing and understanding the commitment..companionship is a pretty big factor for most primates, and companionship of their own kind.. you've said before you were getting a companion for your marmoset. Does he have his friend yet?


Please don't think i'm deliberately trying to have a go at you, it's just whenever these questions get asked in other threads your offline and don't see it or respond to it, so whilst your online iwas curious.


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## Paradoxurus (Jan 10, 2008)

Kirk, that remark does rather generalise. I can't help but get the impression that the majority of private wild animal keepers keep animals as fashion accessories, to draw attention or to keep up with, or better, their colleagues in the hobby.

Captive species are rarely, if ever, able to be returned to the wild. But zoos have certainly had more success at it than private keepers. Even if money was the primary motive for operating a zoo (which I don't believe it is), their by-products of, entertainment, education and conservation surely justify that - provided that welfare is not breached.

Money, conservation, education, entertainment... these are all justifications for keeping animals in captivity. How many of these apply to private keepers? Welfare is _not_ a justification, but poor welfare is certainly a reason _not_ to keep an animal captive.

I am all for allowing private keepers to keep what ever species they like within certain parameters. Whatever justification a keeper has for maintaining animals in captivity, it is no indication of the ability of that keeper to keep them correctly and happily.

Its perhaps worth pondering on the fact that if such draconian animal keeping laws existed during the former decades of the 20th century, then we would perhaps be without many of the UK's leading zoos (Chester, Paignton, Howlett's, Port Lympne, Welsh Mountain for instance) which were founded by private keepers.

Kitty, I think I understand your point though you have not worded it very well. Those threats to wild-living animals you list are no measures of those animals' wellbeing whilst those threats remain unrealised.

If an individual has been brought up in captivity (particularly hand-reared ones) and has no experience of the realities of a wild life then it can live very contented. Animals cannot long for something they have no knowledge of. I think in many cases, animals just deal with the prevailing conditions (be that wild or captivity) and that emotion, in an overall sense, is not much of an issue.

If a primate is hand-reared and only knows the company of humans, it will see their company as more valuable than that of its own kind. If this is the situation, the monkey has never known others of his own kind, and there is constant (or near-constant) human company then there can be no argument against it.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

katie - he is dead i am afraid to report..



kitty said:


> ok just to point out to carby......... *he didnt live in a parrot cage!!!!!!! *he had plenty of space!!!!! and i cant remember your other comment but u need to get full stories before throwing accusations


if this is the case, why did you tell all the primate keepers on Monkeybird Exotics Forum this:



> 14  * Primates / Re: min size for enclosure??* on: 03/06/2008 at 21:08:13 Started by *monkeyman11* | Post by *kitty*
> *thats real cool trigger x
> 
> my marmie is in a large parrot cage at the moment....*


 also... in your post telling the story of your marmosets death, you say 



> mum says i can get a pair of marmies. i ean come on he has only just died and she wants to replace him she doesnt get it i dont want ore monkeys. i want kenzo ya know.
> more monkeys wont bring him back. god and so soon after my dad too....kenzo was only 5months old (((not even)))




and yet you know have a wanted advert out for female marmies on the monkey bird forum.. AND have been asking rory about whether or not he can find you some more!!!!! in fact, when you contacted rory this evening, regarding finding you another 2 females, you made out like mckenzie was still alive.. 

basically you lied kitty. you told us you had had him neutered, built him a large enclosure, and wanted two females to join him!!!!! at this point, you had already posted news of his death on another forum! what, did you think this is the ONLY forum we come on????

you try and tell us you have grown up and taken advice on board, yet your "pet" dies, and within hours you are asking us to find you others.. AND lying about the state of mckenzies health!!!! where is that growing up kitty???

you might have been close to him kitty, and you might have thought he was happy.. BUT if you had a proper enclosure for him BEFORE you got him... i am afraid he may still be alive now... how happy does that make him now he has been killed by a log in his cage falling on him???

yes, we all make mistakes, yes, shit happens.. but for heavens sake kitty, learn from your mistakes and do not try and bullshit us please!

Nerys


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

The same could be said of the giant snakes that people keep. How many are *truly* geared up to maintain a 15' + snake in the manner it should be?
If you can demonstrate that you have the resources, knowledge time and ability to maintain an animal correctly, giving proper consideration to environment, diet, physical and mental stimulation, then why should you not be allowed to keep one?
It matters not whether it's a corn snake or a marmoset, they have a right to live in an environment which is healthy and stimulating and meets their requirements to thrive.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

I agree 100% with you stuart


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Nerys said:


> katie - he is dead i am afraid to report..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


eak trust me to put my foot in it


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Did say in the other thread how sad it was Kenzie had died but it was removed and locked 

Kitty - can I please, please beg you not to get more marmies. I know you have said you don't want any but you do have ads placed etc already.

If you are in coucnil housing with bad neighbours then you simply can't provide a suitable outdoor enclosure for them and that isn't fair on them - I would hate to hear of you posting that you had lost a further pair of marmies 

Do you plan on having a post mortem carried out on Kenzie to find out the cause of his death at all or are you just burying him as you said? I only ask as it may be better to knwo the exact reason he has passed away


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

As this has gone away from Rory's original question into a personal thread on kitty its time to lock. I will leave the posts up that way the few do not need to keep repeating there message.


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