# Chris Newman personal invitation to Elaine Toland



## Chris Newman

*Open letter, dated 24th September, 2009*

Dear Elaine,

For the nearly ten years you have been making inaccurate and defamatory statements that ‘Breeders Meetings’ are illegal and a threat to public health and animal welfare, so I would like to extend an invitation for you to attend this weekend’s event so that you can make slightly more informed decisions in the future. You are perfectly entitled to you views and opinions, as are we all, but it would not be entirely reasonable for you to perpetually attempt to force your minority and extremist views upon the rest of society, indeed this would seem to be bullying of the worst possible kind.

Your organisation is called the Animal Protection Agency and I fail to see how hassling pet keepers protects animals, quite the contrary I would have thought. I would also have thought that breeding reptiles (many of which face a hard time in the wild) in captivity could only be construed as a positive activity from an animal welfare viewpoint.

The group you are currently bullying and attempting to intimidate are the Essex Reptile and Amphibian Club, a group of reptile and amphibian enthusiasts actively engaged in reptile and amphibian conservation, public education (much needed in a field where the animals are still persecuted due to ignorance) and captive breeding. How your persecution of such a group fits in with your agenda of ‘animal protection’ I fail to see.

I have personally invited you to many previous events and you have always failed to acknowledge or respond, and I assume this is connected to your obvious aversion for animals but I would urge you to bury your distaste in the interests of animal protection, a field in which we all (supposedly) work.

As it appears that you have personal issues with people having contact with animals and we would respect your views and keep all livestock sufficiently removed from you in order that your comfort zone was not in any way violated.

On a closing note, I realise that the mere mention of the t*rr*r*sm word strikes fear in the heart of the animal rights activist but actually using scare tactics in order to foist your views upon the silent (and suffering) majority does fall within the wider definition of the term, I would suggest.

I had the decency to attend the Animal Rights conference you sponsored earlier this year and listen to the arguments put forward and I believe you should reciprocate.

I hope to see you on the day. 

Yours faithfully,
Chris Newman


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## Chris Newman

_Copy of a previous letter, which I am still awaiting a reply!_




*Date: 22nd July 2001*
 
Dear Ms. Toland,


I am writing with regard to the letter sent by you to St Edmunds Road Catholic School. Not only was this letter very threatening, it was also highly inaccurate and emotive. It is a great pity that you feel the need to use such tactics to get your own (minority) point of view accepted by the public and that you resort to lies and propaganda to foist your own misguided beliefs upon others. I accept that we are all entitled to a viewpoint, but trying to get your own way should not blind you to moral issues and the rights of others to pursue their chosen way of life. ​

What you describe as a show/market is, in fact, a meeting of a long established society which promotes the conservation, captive-breeding and furtherance of knowledge of reptiles and amphibians. As your organization is called Animal Aid, surely your sympathies would lie with such an organisation. What benefit is there to animals to stop breeders meeting and/or exchanging knowledge, information and, indeed, breeding stock? As you well know, there has been no attempt to use devices of membership – you just made that bit up for effect. If you can’t get your own way by truthful means, you invent something. Very ethical. Of course the organisers attempted to conceal the venue, with threats held over them this was the only sensible course of action.

There was never any chance of the health and safety of the school, pupils, their families and staff being at risk from the meeting; the only risk was posed by yourselves. The risk of reptile-related salmonellosis is so small that it can be discounted. With even the most basic hygiene practices, the chance of contracting disease from a reptile is infinitesimal, unlike the real risk posed by domestic pets (principally dogs) and contaminated food. Should your group, therefore, not campaign against dogs, cats, chickens and all those other animals out here posing a real threat to public health? If you want to run campaigns at least run them on a real issue – inventing a non-existent threat to human health just furthers the public dislike of a group of animals that are already much maligned. 

Throughout the world reptiles and amphibians receive a hard time at human hands. In many countries reptiles are killed on sight. Educating the public as to the value of reptiles and amphibians has been an important part of the herpetological scene in the UK but this valuable conservation work is now being seriously affected by your activities. Exploiting the public fear of reptiles generates publicity and you milk it for all it’s worth. You don’t care about the harm you do in the process. You are not aiding animals – you are harming them. You are also harming their long-term future on the planet.

How will the next generation learn to respect and care for the natural world when denied access the living things which enrich it? Presumably your organisation does not look this far ahead. Captive breeding can offer hope to species which face the real threat of habitat destruction but your organisation does not want breeders to meet, thus denying them the chance to increase their knowledge and perfect their husbandry techniques. Most people who keep reptiles and amphibians do so from a deep love and respect for the natural world and a desire to further the knowledge of a group a animals which are in need of support. 

I do hope some of you will attend the meeting on Sunday so that we can discuss the issues at greater length. My children would, I am sure, also be interested to see the sort of people who are attempting to criminalize their interests and make the world they will inherit a poorer place, where the freedom of the individual can be quashed by a minority group who wish to inflict their views upon the majority and will stop at nothing to win. 

It is interesting to note that your consultant, Mr Clifford Warwick, has become involved in an organisation which is so against the reptile trade as I, like many others who will be at the meeting, remember well his reptile-dealing days. Perhaps he would like to come along and reminisce about the good old days. 

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,


Chris Newman
Lifelong herpetologist & father to four animal loving children.


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## Captainmatt29

I dont think she will make an appearance, and that tells me that she knows she's in the wrong.

It's a great letter let's see if you get a response

Chris has anyone spoken to the school about this ?


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## mieze09

I like the letter which you send to Ms Toland :2thumb: but I doubt that she is coming to the show :devil:

I have to laugh about it that Ms Toland said about health 1. I always have lived with animal cat,birds even reptiles now and I never had any health problem if you go to a hospital you can get more ill from there as from the animals

I also have read from Ms Toland that she said that the reptiles are kept in small tups and this is cruel but " Hello " if you go to a pet shop and want to buy a hamster the hamster will be put in a box even a gold fish will be put in a plastic bag,I just bought my self a budgie and the breeder did put the budgie in a box so that means in her eyes that the breeder was cruel.


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## blood and guts

Chris mate give it up, we all know she swings the other way:lol2:


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## mieze09

:lol2:


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## karlos79

they might be busy shutting down the animal farms for children as its also such a threat! depends on the weather. I reckon next on the ban list is walking your dog in a public place as this in itself will carry the risk of disease from the faeces and worms!

well done Chris, we are all backing this! and for what its worth I have been approached by my old high school to come in (with snakes) to do a talk on keeping them, husbandry and what we can do to protect an ever declining wild species from man's destruction of the planet!


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## mieze09

and to ban cats coming into someones garden as they cause a health hazard :lol2:


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## loz+j

mieze09 said:


> and to ban cats coming into someones garden as they cause a health hazard :lol2:


To right i have a cat hair allergy!!:gasp:


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## Tarn~Totty

I hope you do get a response from her, doubtful but I hope you do. And a very well put together letter there Chris :2thumb:

I agree with messengermatt...she wont respond or show up at the meeting, cause she knows she's in the wrong with what shes doing and how shes going about it :devil:


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## blood and guts

They will have people there, look our for skinny, pale malnurished people with camaras badly hidden and then accidently bump into them as there taking a pic:devil:


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## snake rescuer

mieze09 said:


> :lol2:


why do i feel you are an insider?????
geting very involved with the show!!!!


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## MJ75

mieze09 said:


> I like the letter which you send to Ms Toland :2thumb: but I doubt that she is coming to the show :devil:
> 
> I have to laugh about it that Ms Toland said about health 1. I always have lived with animal cat,birds even reptiles now and I never had any health problem if you go to a hospital you can get more ill from there as from the animals
> 
> I also have read from Ms Toland that she said that the reptiles are kept in small tups and this is cruel but " Hello " if you go to a pet shop and want to buy a hamster the hamster will be put in a box even a gold fish will be put in a plastic bag,I just bought my self a budgie and the breeder did put the budgie in a box so that means in her eyes that the breeder was cruel.


 Hi Miezo09

You wouldn't happen to be a colleague of Ms Toland would you now? You seem to be very interested in shows after all....

Post a pic of your Leopard geckos with a small piece of paper in it. Write RFUK 24/09 on it and prove us wrong. Welcome to the forum in any case. 

MJ


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## snake rescuer

MJ75 said:


> Hi Miezo09
> 
> You wouldn't happen to be a colleague of Ms Toland would you now? You seem to be very interested in shows after all....
> 
> Post a pic of your Leopard geckos with a small piece of paper in it. Write RFUK 24/09 on it and prove us wrong. Welcome to the forum in any case. mj
> 
> 
> 
> seems i am not the only one with my suspicions!!!!
Click to expand...


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## snake rescuer

MJ75 said:


> Hi Miezo09
> 
> You wouldn't happen to be a colleague of Ms Toland would you now? You seem to be very interested in shows after all....
> 
> Post a pic of your Leopard geckos with a small piece of paper in it. Write RFUK 24/09 on it and prove us wrong. Welcome to the forum in any case.
> 
> MJ


 
i like the way he loged out soon after we posted this!!!!


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## MJ75

snake rescuer said:


> i like the way he loged out soon after we posted this!!!!


There is a lot of suspicion at the moment. Unfortunately I suspect a few genuine newbies may be wrongly suspected of being an anti in disguise. 

The last animal rights terrorist to post on here had an unhealthy habit of posting rubbish on the thread shows, when asked to provide a picture of their pet tortoise, they left to. 

Anyone know of any good animal rights terrorist forums? I'm more than happy to engage them in discussion. :2thumb:


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## snake rescuer

MJ75 said:


> There is a lot of suspicion at the moment. Unforyunately I suspect a few genuine newbies may be wrongly suspected of being an anti in disguise.
> 
> The last animal rights terrorist to post on here had an unhealthy habit of posting rubbish on the thread shows, when asked to provide a picture of their pet tortoise, they left to.
> 
> Anyone know of any good animal rights terrorist forums? I'm more than happy to engage them in discussion. :2thumb:


every one of his post are about the show:whip:. we may be wrong but we will see


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## Fixx

snake rescuer said:


> every one of his post are about the show:whip:. we may be wrong but we will see


No they are not, they have done an introduction thread, a couple advertising for leos wanted and another was selling a viv. Raising suspicion about a new member is hardly welcoming to the forums especially when you have no proof to offer.


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## cannotstopbuyingballs

could be an inocent newbie, dont want to put him off and he shouldn't have to prove himself should he ? as a guest anybody can view threads on this forum, then again my wife does tell me i am a trusting fool !


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## blood and guts

snake rescuer said:


> every one of his post are about the show:whip:. we may be wrong but we will see


As you already took it off the topic of towag and co ever thought your user name may be giving ammo to the antis? you call your self snake rescuer yet your always selling stuff at normal prices on here with no mention of rehomes?

New members come and go, some of them may be antis but many many more will be newbies with little understanding of the politics behind the hobby.


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## mieze09

MJ75 said:


> Hi Miezo09
> 
> You wouldn't happen to be a colleague of Ms Toland would you now? You seem to be very interested in shows after all....
> 
> Post a pic of your Leopard geckos with a small piece of paper in it. Write RFUK 24/09 on it and prove us wrong. Welcome to the forum in any case.
> 
> MJ


 
I'am not a colleague of Ms Toland and yes I'am interested in the show because I would love to go there but at the moment I'am not very well as I'am ill.
I also went there last year at the ERAC show and I loved it not to cause trouble.
Yes I'll post a pitcure with my geckos to prove your wrong.
And by the way I'am a member of the BugNation forum as there for a person with the name Sonja which is me.


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## mieze09

snake rescuer said:


> i like the way he loged out soon after we posted this!!!!


First I'am not a he I'am a she and I'am not a collegue of Ms Toland.

Please like I said ask at BugNation forum after a person with the name Sonja which is me.


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## mieze09

To all of the people who think that I'am a insider or a collegue of Ms Toland I have post some pictures of my geckos on the Lizzard thread.

And something else since when do the antis use a German Username ?
Mieze means in German kitty.
I also will update my USER CP as I did not had any time for that to do so as like I said that I'am not very well.


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## MJ75

mieze09 said:


> To all of the people who think that I'am a insider or a collegue of Ms Toland I have post some pictures of my geckos on the Lizzard thread.
> 
> And something else since when do the antis use a German Username ?
> Mieze means in German kitty.
> I also will update my USER CP as I did not had any time for that to do so as like I said that I'am not very well.


I'm glad I'm wrong. I hope you understand why people are a bit wary of others. The animal rights terrorists have no honesty or sincerity about them and think nothing of telling lies in public.


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## mieze09

yes I can understand that people are wary of others.

And by the way I have my experience with this so called animal right groups if uk read my story on the ERAC Essex show thread then you would understand why I'am against them.


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## Steve L

Here Here Chris :notworthy: .If she cant face coming to the show ,then what voice does she really have ?


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## MJ75

mieze09 said:


> yes I can understand that people are wary of others.
> 
> But I don't think that the animal rights would use a german username ?


Oh I think a sneaky animal rights nut job wouldn't hesitate to use a foreign name, claim they have reptiles as pets, post an add in the wanted section all to make them appear more genuine. With the blatant lies they post publically why wouldn't they?

People like Ms Tolland probably don't even care about animals. It's just a job. They have to keep subjecting the public to their lies and propaganda as misinformed members of the public pay their wages. If the public knew the truth about their storytelling they wouldn't contribute money to them. Instead they'd give it to a worthwhile charity or conservation project and people like Ms Toland would be out of a job.


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## shazlew

snake rescuer said:


> why do i feel you are an insider?????
> geting very involved with the show!!!!


 
Your find she is a well respected long standing member of bugnation WHO I HAVE met a number of times!
She keeps a small amount of geckos as pets unlike many that buy to sell on :whistling2:
And i can assure you as the owner of bugnation and someone who wishes that the animal rights would get free supplys of razor blade on a daily basis that she is 101% safe!
I dont even understand what the worry is if they was an insider i would welcome them as someone needs to make them see sence rather than cause all these problems.

So hopefully that clears up that Sonja or mieze09 is safe and you wont be scaring a new member away before they get going


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## pam b

Good luck Chris,
Not that i think she will show, the woman has no balls, just a big mouth.


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## mieze09

shazlew said:


> Your find she is a well respected long standing member of bugnation WHO I HAVE met a number of times!
> She keeps a small amount of geckos as pets unlike many that buy to sell on :whistling2:
> And i can assure you as the owner of bugnation and someone who wishes that the animal rights would get free supplys of razor blade on a daily basis that she is 101% safe!
> I dont even understand what the worry is if they was an insider i would welcome them as someone needs to make them see sence rather than cause all these problems.
> 
> So hopefully that clears up that Sonja or mieze09 is safe and you wont be scaring a new member away before they get going


 
Thanks Shaz:2thumb:


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## gtm

pam b said:


> Good luck Chris,
> Not that i think she will show, *the woman has no balls*, just a big mouth.


I don't think Chris sent the letter to Caster Semenya:mf_dribble:

Seriously, we all know Tolland won't turn up but it's political to invite her. We (the reptile owning community) need to show the world at large we have nothing to hide & inviting a leading anti to the show is a good step in the right direction.


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## Natrix

shazlew said:


> Your find she is a well respected long standing member of bugnation WHO I HAVE met a number of times!
> She keeps a small amount of geckos as pets unlike many that buy to sell on :whistling2:
> And i can assure you as the owner of bugnation and someone who wishes that the animal rights would get free supplys of razor blade on a daily basis that she is 101% safe!
> *I dont even understand what the worry is if they was an insider i would welcome them as someone needs to make them see sence rather than cause all these problems.*
> 
> So hopefully that clears up that Sonja or mieze09 is safe and you wont be scaring a new member away before they get going


Sadly that might not work as well as you think. We did have a number of Antis come onto the Reptilian forums. They refused to see anything but their own version of the world and constantly interupted peoples posts about their animals.
In the end most members got fed up with their antics and moved to other forums. 
Natrix


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## hogboy

Chris was on radio essex this morning
BBC - BBC Essex Programmes - Breakfast on BBC Essex, 25/09/2009
His interview starts at 2.10 mins
Toland was on 1 hour in, talking garbage as per usual


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## pam b

gtm said:


> I don't think Chris sent the letter to Caster Semenya:mf_dribble:
> 
> Seriously, we all know Tolland won't turn up but it's political to invite her. We (the reptile owning community) need to show the world at large we have nothing to hide & inviting a leading anti to the show is a good step in the right direction.


Seriously mate, you dont need to explain to me, but it would however give Chris a giggle.:lol2:


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## MJ75

hogboy said:


> Chris was on radio essex this morning
> BBC - BBC Essex Programmes - Breakfast on BBC Essex, 25/09/2009
> His interview starts at 2.10 mins
> Toland was on 1 hour in, talking garbage as per usual


Is it available to listen to online now?


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## hogboy

MJ75 said:


> Is it available to listen to online now?


Indeed it is -)


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## MJ75

hogboy said:


> Indeed it is -)


Do you have a link?


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## hogboy

MJ75 said:


> Do you have a link?


Its in the post above -)

BBC - BBC Essex Programmes - Breakfast on BBC Essex, 25/09/2009

Just click listen again


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## MJ75

hogboy said:


> Its in the post above -)
> 
> BBC - BBC Essex Programmes - Breakfast on BBC Essex, 25/09/2009
> 
> Just click listen again


Cheers. Stuck some headphones on and told my colleagues I'm on a conference call..... :lol2:


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## Chris Newman

I should worry too much about listening to it, it was a pretty poor interview. Unfortunately a couple of moments before we went on air I was give instructions on what I could and could not say by the BBC. I can only assume that outside pressures were brought to bear. It’s a pit of a pity as it completely derailed what I was hoping to say, never mind….


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## MJ75

Chris Newman said:


> I should worry too much about listening to it, it was a pretty poor interview. Unfortunately a couple of moments before we went on air I was give instructions on what I could and could not say by the BBC. I can only assume that outside pressures were brought to bear. It’s a pit of a pity as it completely derailed what I was hoping to say, never mind….


Can I take a guess and suggest you were not allowed to express your concerns about the actions of animal rights extremists? Or mention the lies and propaganda published by a certain organisation?


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## White_raven666

Well done Chris Newman!! that was a very educated and civil way to put our side across.


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## fishboy

Chris Newman said:


> I should worry too much about listening to it, it was a pretty poor interview. Unfortunately a couple of moments before we went on air I was give instructions on what I could and could not say by the BBC. I can only assume that outside pressures were brought to bear. It’s a pit of a pity as it completely derailed what I was hoping to say, never mind….


Hmmm. It sounded very much like that. Censorship makes my blood boil. So what guidlines did they give on what you could and couldn't say? Surely you're allowed to tell us? :whip:


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## fishboy

Hmmm, Question to Miss Tolland : In what way is a legal breeders meeting similar to dog fighting or fox hunting? :lol2: I suppose you could stick 2 corn snakes in a ring and watch them viciously ignore and then slither away from each other into a dark corner?


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## Genseric

They would probably say they are Kings, and take a pic of one solitary animal, saying it had eaten the other..


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## Captainmatt29

I thought the radio show was good, although i agree with chris i would like to have heard a bit more of a in depth convo regarding how the IAR conduct their business etc


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## fishboy

LeviathanNI said:


> They would probably say they are Kings, and take a pic of one solitary animal, saying it had eaten the other..



Yes i suppose they probably would :whip:


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## HS

Well done Chris, I think you put across the information needed for joe public.
A couple of good digs at the Anti's too.
I know you would have liked to say more, but I am sure that opportunity will come.:2thumb:


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## Caz

Nice letter Chris. Satan will skate to work beofre you get a sensible reply though..



MJ75 said:


> Hi Miezo09
> 
> You wouldn't happen to be a colleague of Ms Toland would you now? You seem to be very interested in shows after all....
> 
> Post a pic of your Leopard geckos with a small piece of paper in it. Write RFUK 24/09 on it and prove us wrong. Welcome to the forum in any case.
> 
> MJ



To be honest I have my doubts about you MJ75, esp' when I look at ther thread you have started yourself.. PETA/RSPCA etc...:whistling2:


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## MJ75

Caz said:


> Nice letter Chris. Satan will skate to work beofre you get a sensible reply though..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest I have my doubts about you MJ75, esp' when I look at ther thread you have started yourself.. PETA/RSPCA etc...:whistling2:


I don't blame you in all honesty. Though I have real friends on this site who know me in the real world. They'll tell you I'm a qualified deer stalker, keen angler, even keener aquarist and reptile keeper. In short, four of my five hobbies (The others drinking) are opposed by animal rights extremists, So to be fair, I have more concern over animal rights nutters than most. They don't just try and stop the odd reptile show you know. 

Oh, and I own a small pet related business! lol


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## ratboy

"We will have evidence gatherers at the event recording criminal transactions that take place."

Well after they've finished filming people selling smack in the car park, they could introduce themselves and get shown round maybe.


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## nutsonlizards

hogboy said:


> Chris was on radio essex this morning
> BBC - BBC Essex Programmes - Breakfast on BBC Essex, 25/09/2009
> His interview starts at 2.10 mins
> Toland was on 1 hour in, talking garbage as per usual


thanks for sharing 
also a big thanks and well done Chris


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## ratboy

I love the fact that the radio station contacted the council who confirmed that the event had never been cancelled .....


Hahahahahaha.....


You are a liar Ms Toland.


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## Gemstone Dragons

Well done Chris! :2thumb: :notworthy:


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## Pete Q

Good work Chris.


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## Pete Q

I wonder if anyone called the radio to put their point across ?


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## Connie_F

So do I - anyone ?



Pete Q said:


> I wonder if anyone called the radio to put their point across ?


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## Fixx

MJ75 said:


> Oh I think a sneaky animal rights nut job wouldn't hesitate to use a foreign name, claim they have reptiles as pets, post an add in the wanted section all to make them appear more genuine. With the blatant lies they post publically why wouldn't they?
> 
> People like Ms Tolland probably don't even care about animals. It's just a job. They have to keep subjecting the public to their lies and propaganda as misinformed members of the public pay their wages. If the public knew the truth about their storytelling they wouldn't contribute money to them. Instead they'd give it to a worthwhile charity or conservation project and people like Ms Toland would be out of a job.


So are you going to publically apologise to Mieze09 for raising suspicion against her?


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## Poxicator

paranoia reigns!

nice letter Chris. Good luck with a great meeting of like minded people. My visit to the ERAC in Basildon last year was one of informed hobbyists providing as much information as possible and in all cases without a sale. Long may it reign.


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## Scott W

Pete Q said:


> I wonder if anyone called the radio to put their point across ?


 
I doubt it. It's a shame this event wasn't passed on to a few people who could of then called in and put a breeders perspective across. Media coverage is few and far between and we need to make the most of every opportunity.


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## ratboy

Scott W said:


> I doubt it. It's a shame this event wasn't passed on to a few people who could of then called in and put a breeders perspective across. Media coverage is few and far between and we need to make the most of every opportunity.


Indeed Scott. I live in Essex now and would have phoned in to say what great pets snakes make.


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## Genseric

Leaving aside the actual topic, if I may digress... whether someone is an anti or not is irrelevant. We have nothing to hide, and if they, the antis, do come here, then it mean we have their attention, and should at least try to help them understand our hobby... ok, some will never be turned, and end up best ignored.. but if even one understands and 'turns' (for want of a better word), then that has to be a good thing.

Having them here does not, and should not, detract from our efforts to improve our own, and others, education, and our own personal quests to better our understanding and knowledge of the brilliant animals we are blessed to own and care for.

We have nothing to hide... there are no skeletons in our closet, and collectively we have only ever advanced knowledge.


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