# What are your views on keeping large whales in captivity?



## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

There's an interesting discussion going on here: Sea World - Largest Killer Whale In Captivity (Tilikum) (2008) - YouTube

Most people are seeing this as animal cruelty, keeping an animal of this size in such a small enclosure, it clearly has an affect on the animal, its dorsal thin for instance being drooped.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

It makes me very sad to watch it.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

I was under the impression the dorsal fin is a fat reserve? Therefore an animal in captivity won't have the fat reserves as they are regularly fed. The same reason camels in zoos have floppy humps.

I have no comment on the ethical and moral reasons for or against zoos/seaworld etc. as I enjoy going to them. Though I do prefer to see them in their natural environments.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Natonstan said:


> There's an interesting discussion going on here: Sea World - Largest Killer Whale In Captivity (Tilikum) (2008) - YouTube
> 
> Most people are seeing this as animal cruelty, keeping an animal of this size in such a small enclosure, it clearly has an affect on the animal, its dorsal thin for instance being drooped.


i mean, if he had loads of room, i see no problem
but it doesn't look like there's much space


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## retic lover (Sep 23, 2008)

100% against it its sooooo cruel......


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

spinnin_tom said:


> i mean,* if he had loads of room*, i see no problem
> but it doesn't look like there's much space


As they're _so_ big, and travel thousands of miles, I'm not sure they could ever have enough room.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

Have to say i agree with Mrcriss on this topic. 

I think it is cruel keeping them in such small enclosures especially given that the majority of the time it is for nothing more than peoples entertainment really. 

Wildlife rehabilitation and such though, i think are agreeable on temporary basis till release type thing, but i dont think that generally happens with whales does it? :lol2:


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## sam gamgee (Apr 8, 2009)

Like most, if not all animals, should be left in their wild state, do not belong in captivity......IMO.

Wont even bother myself to view it.


Dave


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

sam gamgee said:


> Like most, if not all animals, should be left in their wild state, do not belong in captivity......IMO.
> 
> Wont even bother myself to view it.
> 
> ...


see thats werd as you keep a couple of species that would range and are not natualy kept in the house or cages ok cb but so are most of the whales 


am for and againest whales in captivaty ok its not perfect but nothing is i would much rather see them in larger pools or wild tho


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

Its funny that size of an animal seems to make it more important in peoples minds.Most fish from the smallest upwards are kept in small tanks and yet fish are never a main issue with antis,they seem to be overlooked for some reason.
The only time they will stop keeping the whales is if the whales keep killing handlers.If you had a zoo with gorillas doing tricks,there would be such an uproar,and yet these intelligent creatures remain to be abused,disgusting.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Sick though it may sound, I reckon the stimulation from learning the tricks are the only things that prevent these poor intelligent creatures from going completely insane. 

I agree that the only thing that will stop them being kept captive, is if they all suddenly murdered their handlers. Unfortunately, that wouldn't mean the current stock would be released, but merely put out of their misery.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

I read a fantastic book called "Listening to Whales" by a woman called Alexandra Morton about orcas both in captivity and in the wild.

In the book, she documents the depression, sickness and poor quality of life experienced by these animals whilst in captivity. They seem to pine for the families they were forcibly removed from, and never fully adapt to life in a tank. Their lifespan is also severely reduced in captivity, and it is common for young to be still born or die shortly after birth due to lack of care, as young whales can be removed from their wild mothers before they have had a chance to learn the vital mothering skills they need.

I believe its also still legal to capture wild killer whales for use in parks, but only when the existing one dies. This reportedly causes huge amounts of stress for all animals involved, and depression at the removal of an individual from a close-knit family group can last for many years, and can lead to an early demise.

I did once go to SeaWorld in Florida many years ago and I loved it, but knowing what I do now I would never go again.

For orcas born in captivity, who knows, but they are such sentient, intelligent creatures that they must realise their lives are not natural.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I too have read that book, it's very sad.

My view is that if they were given the correct care, then like any animal they 'could' do well in captivity, but they simply can not be given big enough tanks, and none of them are kept in family groups. 

Most of them die from infection in self inflicted wounds. They chew metal bars and their teeth are in horrendous condition. Some of them (ie. the ones in Florida sea world) aren't even provided with shade over their tank and they get very bad sunburn. Somewhere to get out of the sun is VERY basic care, that these animals don't recieve. It's believed that some even commited suicide. They repeatedly swam in to the side of the tank.


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## sam gamgee (Apr 8, 2009)

*Weird???*



adamntitch said:


> see thats werd as you keep a couple of species that would range and are not natualy kept in the house or cages ok cb but so are most of the whales
> 
> 
> am for and againest whales in captivaty ok its not perfect but nothing is i would much rather see them in larger pools or wild tho


Just my view, as for the animals we keep, well all were born in captivity, have outside access and are not kept caged, free roamers, outside under supervision although Puck the possum chooses to come in under his own steam, as it were!
Would never have a WC and if these creatures were unavailable simply wouldnt keep them, as much as I admire. 
We put a lot of time and money into all the creatures we keep, make mistakes like everyone does but generally attempt to give them as good a life as is possible within our own constraints.......there are quite a few owners out there who perversely believe that creatures are there for thier own satisfaction........


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## sam gamgee (Apr 8, 2009)

Of course, one big problem is that whales cannot be kept in a 4x2x2 viv....:lol2:

I`m sure there are some out there who would like to give this a go, they have a spare viv etc etc.

Not serious but sure you get my lil point! 


Dave.


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## aliburke (Jun 20, 2011)

animalsbeebee said:


> Its funny that size of an animal seems to make it more important in peoples minds.Most fish from the smallest upwards are kept in small tanks and yet fish are never a main issue with antis,they seem to be overlooked for some reason.
> The only time they will stop keeping the whales is if the whales keep killing handlers.If you had a zoo with gorillas doing tricks,there would be such an uproar,and yet these intelligent creatures remain to be abused,disgusting.


 
I have the same view where fish are concerned, I think it's downright cruel and selfish to keep fish in a tiny tank/bowl, they should not even be on the shelves to sell, yet lots of people say its ok cause the fish has a tiny memory so hasn't a clue, I think that's just peoples ignorance so they don't feel guilty, it makes me so cross:devil:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

I like this debate and belong to another forum where it's a regular topic, so I figure I'll give a short sum up of the points that arise.


Most whales in captivity today are captive bred, sea world has not captured any since the seventies and I believe has no wild caughts currently.
Whales do travel some way in the wild on migration routes, as do elephants and most birds. We never hear this debate about the canary.
'Tricks' and other mental stimulation is necessary for the animals well being, it's like keeping a collie that doesn't herd, they need a job.
They are not called killer whales for fun, they are killers, and people, trainers or not, should stay away from them. It's a bit like jumping in a lions cage and then complaining when it bites you, you know the risk of getting into that tank and shouldn't be doing it if you value your life!
The whales move around a number of interlinked tanks due to shows etc so any one tank you see does not mean that is their full time tank or total range.
The droopy fin does not signify any health issues but appears to be most commonly seen with male captive bred animals. Nobody is 100% sure why but all health tests have proved healthy animals.

My personal feeling is that these animals are fine in captivity, but I'd like to see bigger family groups, tricks done without contact for safety of whale and trainer and more naturalistic enclosures like the manta ray and whale shark one at georgia.


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## sam gamgee (Apr 8, 2009)

Always good to hear a more experienced and evidently informed view, must say!

Dave.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Devi said:


> I like this debate and belong to another forum where it's a regular topic, so I figure I'll give a short sum up of the points that arise.
> 
> 
> Most whales in captivity today are captive bred, sea world has not captured any since the seventies and I believe has no wild caughts currently.
> ...


some good points but am 99% sure tilli is wc may explane the amount of people hes killed and also his behaver


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

I remember watching that program about the killer whale they set free but it was so used to human contact it kept hanging around places where people were and didn't go and find a new pod to live with. Was very sad. But on the other hand if the places that keep these whales learn from that maybe they could keep these animals in pools that have access to the sea so they can come and go as they please. Given the other whales reluctance to leave human contact I would bet if the animal was treated nice and well cared for it would return.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Tilikum was caught but not by sea world. His behaviour is not because of his background however, it is normal in captive bred animals too.
Have a glance at this - Killer whale attacks
Before Tilikum there was Keto, a cb male, Skyla, a cb female, and Freya a wc female. It's a mixture.
Despite the smily face they are not safe animals to work with and occasionally attack trainers either playfully or aggressively.


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## ex0tics (Jun 9, 2009)

I also imagine reinforcing that glass if it was majorly larger would be difficult, just imagine the sheer force of that water (not even taking into consideration the whale itself) just an idea though, I'd like to think there was a valid reason for having to keep it in there. I just don't like to read things like this really


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

As well as the space, boredom & social issues that captive Orcas endure, another issue is that of sound. As Orcas use sound to communicate almost constantly, & also use sound to hunt some of their prey species, their world is full of the familiar family calls. In captivity, they must put up with the screams & shouts of human spectators, nearby machines & their vibrations (rollercoasters, etc), & all this can really irritate them & send them insane.


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## Scaled Reptiles (Sep 4, 2011)

Isn't it cruel to keep any animal in a confined space??????


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

conservatives... they are evil people... conservatives want deregulation... let corporations do as they wish...

sea world is a corporation with lobbyists in washington seeing that this is allowed...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Scaled Reptiles said:


> Isn't it cruel to keep any animal in a confined space??????


Thats a very open-ended question. Do you keep snakes in vivs? Is that cruel? 

I am not against any animal being kept in captivity, but I just don't see how a captive Orca can be kept happy all the time, & kept as naturally as possible. To be honest, I think it would be questioned whether the Five Freedoms are met, as Orcas in captivity as not allowed to behave naturally, & are not free from stress & fear.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't agree with it.
I don't really know why? I just don't.

I seen Free Willy the other day:blush:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> Thats a very open-ended question. Do you keep snakes in vivs? Is that cruel?
> 
> I am not against any animal being kept in captivity, but I just don't see how a captive Orca can be kept happy all the time, & kept as naturally as possible. To be honest, I think it would be questioned whether the Five Freedoms are met, as Orcas in captivity as not allowed to behave naturally, & are not free from stress & fear.


My snakes aren't allowed to behave naturally as they don't hunt or eat live prey. I don't really see how you're judging that Orca feel stress and fear.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's about regulation and not wildlife...

the conservatives want the wildlife rules tossed into the trash... then free enterprise can save us... like elephants in the circus... no humane laws...

it interferes with profit... whales make money... corporations that own wild animal parks must be protected!

there should be no animal laws according to conservatives... get rid of the endangered species act they say....


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

how many killer whale parks does the uk have?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> how many killer whale parks does the uk have?


None!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> None!


 why?

they have a few here in the u.s.... wonder why?

is it right?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Devi said:


> My snakes aren't allowed to behave naturally as they don't hunt or eat live prey. I don't really see how you're judging that Orca feel stress and fear.


Snakes aren't highly intelligent animals that have complex social & mental needs. Orcas are!

You don't think being restricted to swimming round a small pool constantly isn't stressful to these animals? And that the awful sounds that interefere with their natural communications isn't scary?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> why?
> 
> they have a few here in the u.s.... wonder why?
> 
> is it right?


There are also no Dolphins in captivity anymore in the UK. I think its probably to do with the space issue, but who knows.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> There are also no Dolphins in captivity anymore in the UK. I think its probably to do with the space issue, but who knows.


i knew the united kingdom was small but not big enough for a dolphin?

how many nigerians can you fit?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> Snakes aren't highly intelligent animals that have complex social & mental needs. Orcas are!
> 
> You don't think being restricted to swimming round a small pool constantly isn't stressful to these animals? And that the awful sounds that interefere with their natural communications isn't scary?


Many commonly kept exotic animals are 'highly intelligent', apes are a good example, even parrots can be considered so. Most birds rely strongly on sound and quite a few monkeys too, do you consider these less important? 
Many people see Orca and other toothed whales as somehow special because of their rarity, but in reality they are not as high maintenence as a chimpanzee which is a much more accepted zoo animal.
Also they are not swimming round a pool constantly, they interact with family members and are involved in training and mental stimulation for most of their day.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Devi said:


> Many commonly kept exotic animals are 'highly intelligent', apes are a good example, even parrots can be considered so. Most birds rely strongly on sound and quite a few monkeys too, do you consider these less important?
> Many people see Orca and other toothed whales as somehow special because of their rarity, but in reality they are not as high maintenence as a chimpanzee which is a much more accepted zoo animal.
> Also they are not swimming round a pool constantly, they interact with family members and are involved in training and mental stimulation for most of their day.


Yes, apes & parrots are extremnely intelligent animals, but their size makes it much easier to house them & provide for them.

And yes, many species of birds & monkey rely on audible communication, but as Orcas & Dolphins live in water, & sound travels better & differently in water, it has been shown that army sonar tests & underwater missile testing, etc can have a very detrimental effect on cetaceans & some people believe that these human interferences could be partly to blame for beachings. So the noise of crowds screeching & yelling & clapping could well be very stressful to these Orcas.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> And yes, many species of birds & monkey rely on audible communication, but as Orcas & Dolphins live in water, & sound travels better & differently in water, it has been shown that army sonar tests & underwater missile testing, etc can have a very detrimental effect on cetaceans & some people believe that these human interferences could be partly to blame for beachings. So the noise of crowds screeching & yelling & clapping could well be very stressful to these Orcas.


We still don't know why animals beach either, it could be stress, illness, disorientation, water toxicity, many many things. We have no idea if sonar has any effect at all. Orca also hear a limited range of sound, for example they can't hear dolphin sounds.
This article makes an interesting read - Why do whales beach?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Devi said:


> We still don't know why animals beach either, it could be stress, illness, disorientation, water toxicity, many many things. We have no idea if sonar has any effect at all. Orca also hear a limited range of sound, for example they can't hear dolphin sounds.
> This article makes an interesting read - Why do whales beach?


Many people doing research into cetaceans think the military sonar tests may well have something to do with beachings, & other problems. It stands to reason, that an animal that lives in a world of sound would become upset & distressed by artificial interference by humans. Of course, many other human-related factors are linked too, as usual we humans have a tendancy to screw things up for other species.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> Many people doing research into cetaceans think the military sonar tests may well have something to do with beachings, & other problems. It stands to reason, that an animal that lives in a world of sound would become upset & distressed by artificial interference by humans. Of course, many other human-related factors are linked too, as usual we humans have a tendancy to screw things up for other species.


I won't argue against humans screwing things up! However sea mammals have been beaching since history began and sonar is relatively recent. I'm not saying it has no effect, but with no evidence it's impossible to say really. 
It is also worth mentioning at this point that beached cetaceans pushed back to sea often do not survive and when taken into captivity for a rehabilitative period, they have a much higher chance of recovery. A few very knowledgeable ex keepers in this country have complained about the lack of rehabilitation facilities in the UK and have been campaigning for a 'dolphin hospital' at the very least. Can't say I disagree having seen their points.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

rum&coke said:


> I remember watching that program about the killer whale they set free but it was so used to human contact it kept hanging around places where people were and didn't go and find a new pod to live with. Was very sad. But on the other hand if the places that keep these whales learn from that maybe they could keep these animals in pools that have access to the sea so they can come and go as they please. Given the other whales reluctance to leave human contact I would bet if the animal was treated nice and well cared for it would return.


the whale you are taking about is the whale that played free willy in the films, 
he had such a bond with people he didnt feel the need to bond with other whales


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

123dragon said:


> the whale you are taking about is the whale that played free willy in the films,
> he had such a bond with people he didnt feel the need to bond with other whales


It wasn't that he didn't feel the need, he was so socially "stunted" that he didn't know how.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

SexyBear77 said:


> It wasn't that he didn't feel the need, he was so socially "stunted" that he didn't know how.


He lived with other whales in captivity, at one point as a group of 5, he also interacted with other whales while in the wild but never made the move to join a pod permanently. He was in no way 'socially stunted'


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Devi said:


> He lived with other whales in captivity, at one point as a group of 5, he also interacted with other whales while in the wild but never made the move to join a pod permanently. He was in no way 'socially stunted'


Yes, he was. He had no idea how to fend for himself in the wild, including how to interact successfully with wild whales (eg: whales that behaved how whales _should_ behave). 

Kieko was moved from the Marineland park because he was bullied by other whales, and had no other whales for company at Reino Aventura (where he lived for 11 years.....)

You reckon a wild-captured whale that had spent so long living in those conditions would be just as socially adept as a wild whale should be? 

He wasn't.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

SexyBear77 said:


> Yes, he was. He had no idea how to fend for himself in the wild, including how to interact successfully with wild whales (eg: whales that behaved how whales _should_ behave).
> 
> Kieko was moved from the Marineland park because he was bullied by other whales, and had no other whales for company at Reino Aventura (where he lived for 11 years.....)
> 
> ...


The problem that the experts suspected with his failure to join a pod is that he was not related to the orcas he interacted with. Releases done properly should involve returning the orca to his or her pod and any successful reintroductions have been done this way. 
In fairness not knowing his background the reintroduction of Keiko was rather short sighted.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

rum&coke said:


> I remember watching that program about the killer whale they set free but it was so used to human contact it kept hanging around places where people were and didn't go and find a new pod to live with. Was very sad.





Salazare Slytherin said:


> I seen Free Willy the other day:blush:


That film - instead of saving Keiko - killed him.

I have spoken with someone who worked with Keiko when he was in the bay in Iceland. He could have lived a long happy life in that bay, going for "walks" with the people he loved to be with out in the open ocean, but having somewhere to return to ensure he got enough to eat.

But no, he had to be "free".

He didn't want to be alone, he wanted people - and at the end of the day that desire to be with the closest thing to family he knew was his downfall.

I don't agree with taking any more whales or dolphins from the wild.
I do agree with captive breeding programs.
I don't agree with trying to release animals whose family groups cannot be found and who have been in captivity for decades.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

hiya
seaworld and alot of other dolphinariums are :censor: cruel anyway

anyone watched this


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

fardilis said:


> hiya
> seaworld and alot of other dolphinariums are :censor: cruel anyway
> 
> anyone watched this
> [front cover of the cove]


That film is ridiculous. Japanese people eat dolphins, whether that's right or wrong is an issue that you can discuss, however no western dolphinarium is involved in it in any way.
Even the few eastern aquariums who have taken animals from this trade have saved the animal from death. Because these animals would not have been allowed to swim happily back into the sea, they'd be brutally butchered.

ETA - Should say ridiculous for its obsession with cetaceans in captivity, not for showing the dolphin meat trade, these kind of things should be shown so that people can make a decision on what they eat (or don't).


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Devi said:


> That film is ridiculous. Japanese people eat dolphins, whether that's right or wrong is an issue that you can discuss, however no western dolphinarium is involved in it in any way.
> Even the few eastern aquariums who have taken animals from this trade have saved the animal from death. Because these animals would not have been allowed to swim happily back into the sea, they'd be brutally butchered.


hiya
Listen i'm not gonna argue with u, but seaworld takes dolphins from this act and place them in captivity, they help the large slaughter of dolphins and hide the fact from the public. At the dolphinariums they are stressed to the extent that drugs are placed in there food to stop them stressing out and dying.

Due to pollutants in the wter dolphin meat has high levals of mercury in it, several times higher than the legal levals and as a result ppl have been poisoned by it and alot of dolphin meat is labelled as large whale meat so ppl buy it, most japanese ppl do not evan think they are consuming 
mercury poisoned dolphin but large antarctic whale meat.


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## sam gamgee (Apr 8, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> That film - instead of saving Keiko - killed him.
> 
> I have spoken with someone who worked with Keiko when he was in the bay in Iceland. He could have lived a long happy life in that bay, going for "walks" with the people he loved to be with out in the open ocean, but having somewhere to return to ensure he got enough to eat.
> 
> ...


 
Have to agree with this generally.

Dave


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

fardilis said:


> hiya
> Listen i'm not gonna argue with u, but seaworld takes dolphins from this act and place them in captivity, they help the large slaughter of dolphins and hide the fact from the public. At the dolphinariums they are stressed to the extent that drugs are placed in there food to stop them stressing out and dying.
> 
> Due to pollutants in the wter dolphin meat has high levals of mercury in it, several times higher than the legal levals and as a result ppl have been poisoned by it and alot of dolphin meat is labelled as large whale meat so ppl buy it, most japanese ppl do not evan think they are consuming
> mercury poisoned dolphin but large antarctic whale meat.


Probably best to stay away from sea food altogether in japan after the meltdowns at the nuke pants after the earthquake anyway :lol2:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

fardilis said:


> hiya
> Listen i'm not gonna argue with u, but seaworld takes dolphins from this act and place them in captivity, they help the large slaughter of dolphins and hide the fact from the public. At the dolphinariums they are stressed to the extent that drugs are placed in there food to stop them stressing out and dying.


Care to try backing that up with facts? I think you'll have trouble.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

fardilis said:


> but seaworld takes dolphins from this act and place them in captivity,


Do you have a citation that shows that Sea World (the corporation) specifically takes dolphins from Japanese drive hunts?


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

I am really, really torn. I guess inherently I believe it's next to impossible to provide a living standard required to these animals, but it doesn't stop me being fascinated with them for selfish reasons... I'm part of the free willy generation...

For me, I'd be comfortable with it I guess if whales lived as long or longer in captivity as they do in the wild. As they don't, I can't help feeling they're not a good candidate.

Having said that, this summer I went to Marineland Antibes and was really impressed by the fact they've had a captive birth this year, the size of the enclosures and the general appearance of health of the whales (and dolphins)... I genuinely don't think the whales would perform if they didn't feel like it, and they have the power to refuse at the cost of someone's life... I have to say I felt incredibly guilty for enjoying it as much as I did.

orca's killer whales at marineland antibes france - YouTube


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> That film - instead of saving Keiko - killed him.
> 
> I have spoken with someone who worked with Keiko when he was in the bay in Iceland. He could have lived a long happy life in that bay, going for "walks" with the people he loved to be with out in the open ocean, but having somewhere to return to ensure he got enough to eat.
> 
> ...


yeah i think they should have let him stay were he was, in the cove with all the people he knew


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

fardilis said:


> Due to pollutants in the wter dolphin meat has high levals of mercury in it, several times higher than the legal levals and as a result ppl have been poisoned by it and alot of dolphin meat is labelled as large whale meat so ppl buy it, most japanese ppl do not evan think they are consuming
> mercury poisoned dolphin but large antarctic whale meat.


Unfortunately, whale meat is also high in mercury and things like PCB's- none of it should really be eaten.....


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

SexyBear77 said:


> Unfortunately, whale meat is also high in mercury and things like PCB's- none of it should really be eaten.....


and so is alot of things living in the sea now:devil:


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## Jesss (Mar 24, 2011)

I know this topic has fallen a bit but want to put my view across. Orcas are not suited for captivity. 

The captive bred Orca you were talking about in Antibes is actually inbred, infact pretty soon all new births are going to be due to the low amount of genes. Tilikum is the main breeding bull for not only Seaworld but for antibes and Loro Park. Heard of Morgan? She was an ill whale that they found and took into captivity to rerelease and even though she is perfectly healthy now, Loro park (Sea world...) are wanting to buy her to breed with rather than trying to find her pod to release her too (Which they think they have found due to vocal links as each Pod has a different dialect)

Lolita is one of the oldest wild caught whales and is in Miami sea Aquarium and her tank isn't even twice the size of her, which makes that illegal yet for 41(!!!) years has gone unsorted. Her only companion was Hugo another Orca but he died 30 years ago. She must be so lonely, they now have a blow up killer whale for her. Plans are trying to get her retired into a sea pen but the owner will not sell her. 

If Seaworlds tanks were bigger and they kept the calves with the parents and actually kept the social bonds that are incredibly important in the wild, I might be able to get on board, however until something changes then I just see the whole thing as cruel. 

I could go on forever...
I could also provide many links/articles/journals on this for anyone who is interested!


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