# Dog Training



## Andy1987 (Mar 23, 2011)

This may cause many mixed reactions...

The use of an electric collar...

Now I am married we want a dog, both my parents and wife’s parents have spaniels.

I have had an electric collar put around my neck, and they are not painful - it just gives a small shock.

My father in-law trains gun dogs and he uses them, and my dad used them.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i'd use one...

no means no...

dogs love to push the envelope...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Personally i can't think of any occasion when I would want to use such a thing on any dog of mine. 

If thousands of people can train their dogs to perfection with the reward method, then the way I see it anyone who has to resort to something like this is a failure and shouldn't have a dog. Sorry!


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Was there a question?

I think there may well be a place in training for them....I can not conceive of one personally but I think as a bottom line that no training method should be ruled out and not tried before rehoming or even putting down a dog.

Having said that a shock collar is at the extreme end of the spectrum. It is shocking you are considering it not only as an option for a non extreme problem but you are actually considering it as an option for a dog that doesn't eve exist yet.

Personally my opinion is that training that way is admitting you have no intelligence or skill in dog training. You are a human, engage the brain. Dogs have thousands of years of evolution to wish to work with a human, find a way to work with the dog and make the dog happy to please rather than resorting to pain like some Neanderthal. 

It is not even possible to say it is a lazy way of training, because other positive methods are easier and more effective.


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## Andy1987 (Mar 23, 2011)

Kare said:


> Was there a question?
> 
> Personally my opinion is that training that way is admitting you have no intelligence or skill in dog training.


I have a lot of intelligence.



Kare said:


> You are a human, engage the brain evolution has given you dogs have thousands of years of evolution to wish to work with a human, find a way to work with the dog and make the dog happy to please rather than resorting to pain like some Neanderthal.


Electric Collars do not cause pain, as said, I have had one around me neck.

How do you think we train dogs in the military?
We use certain methods.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

So are you training a military dog??? I assumed you were buying a dog as a family pet, in which case surely if you get it at 8 weeks old you should be able to train it without resorting to an electric collar??


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feorag said:


> Personally i can't think of any occasion when I would want to use such a thing on any dog of mine.
> 
> If thousands of people can train their dogs to perfection with the reward method, then the way I see it anyone who has to resort to something like this is a failure and shouldn't have a dog. Sorry!


so your dog is outside and goes nuts barking at a cat walking by...

the neighbors are angry... you're having your morning coffee, in your underwear...

i'd like to press a button and the dog would stop barking and not get me evicted...

or i have to go and put on my shorts... go outside and tell her "no"!... and go back in... then a squirrel goes by and the dog goes crazy... howling and shouting... but i have to go out and tell her no...

a button would tell her no without me...

i get more exercise than my dogs..... they want to bark at anything strange going by... they shut up when i go out... i'm there and they no longer have to sound the warning... i say "no"... no means no...

a shock collar can tell them no and i can enjoy my coffee at 5 am...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

But will it stop them permanently or will they just bark after they've had the shock of the collar, so you'll have to shock them again? And maybe again if whatever is making them bark is still there???


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feorag said:


> So are you training a military dog??? I assumed you were buying a dog as a family pet, in which case surely if you get it at 8 weeks old you should be able to train it without resorting to an electric collar??


yep...

8 weeks is like training an infant...

they're stupid at that age... babies...

like teaching an 8 month old how to read or drive...


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Andy1987 said:


> I have a lot of intelligence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are already answering as though you are someone who does use this method so sounds like your mind is already made up. I am still unsure if there is any question or point to your post other than get empassioned replies and friction between people.

For the record Morgans first trainer was a Military trainer, and no that is not how he trained dogs.

More importantly Guide dogs and dogs for the disabled, epilepsy alert dogs and hypoglycaemic alert dogs to name just a few are all trained with nothing but positive methods. These dogs are dogs that literally have the lives of people in their paws. If that level of training does not require such techniques there is not one role you would need to train a dog for that should need this training.


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## Andy1987 (Mar 23, 2011)

feorag said:


> So are you training a military dog??? I assumed you were buying a dog as a family pet, in which case surely if you get it at 8 weeks old you should be able to train it without resorting to an electric collar??


No, I will be training my dog for my family pet.

My dog will be part of my family and will be loved - the same as my parents and in-laws dogs.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feorag said:


> But will it stop them permanently or will they just bark after they've had the shock of the collar, so you'll have to shock them again? And maybe again if whatever is making them bark is still there???


what they associate with...

they bark and go crazy if i'm not there... all i need to do is let them either see me or hear me and they cease...

6am is way early...

i'd rather push a button and they'll shut up than have to go out there for all 10,000 cats here... and dogs...

a button would replace "shut the f&%[email protected]! up"!











http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/7084/1006533f.jpg

my dogs are fiercely protective...

but they are cool as long as they understand that i see the perceived threat..


not to say that a shock collar is immune from idiot owners...

just a signal it would be with me.... that i'm there... i'm aware...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feorag said:


> But will it stop them permanently or will they just bark after they've had the shock of the collar, so you'll have to shock them again? And maybe again if whatever is making them bark is still there???


what they associate with...

they bark and go crazy if i'm not there... all i need to do is let them either see me or hear me and they cease...

6am is way early...

i'd rather push a button and they'll shut up than have to go out there for all 10,000 cats here... and dogs...

a button would replace "shut the f&%[email protected]! up"!




















my dogs are fiercely protective...

but they are cool as long as they understand that i see the perceived threat..


not to say that a shock collar is immune from idiot owners...

just a signal it would be with me.... that i'm there... i'm aware...


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

are they even as effective a training method as other methods?

would it not be confusing and frightning to the dog?


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## Andy1987 (Mar 23, 2011)

Kare said:


> For the record Morgans first trainer was a Military trainer, and no that is not how he trained dogs.


Really? It depends on what he was being trained for...

Drugs, Bombs, People; Dogs are trained using the treat method, but can also have the collar. Protection/security dogs are trained using the collar



Kare said:


> More importantly Guide dogs and dogs for the disabled, epilepsy alert dogs and hypoglycaemic alert dogs to name just a few are all trained with nothing but positive methods. These dogs are dogs that literally have the lives of people in their paws. If that level of training does not require such techniques there is not one role you would need to train a dog for that should need this training.


I would look into that a lot further


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## TalulaTarantula (Jan 21, 2011)

Ive never felt the need to use one? maybe as an absolute last resort?
I grew up with my mum breeding working GSD's and collies, not one needed anything like that, some of our GSD's even went into the police force without any complaints, all are rescue dogs have also been well trained,
And if also trained everything from gundogs to over excitable and boysterious pets, not once using anything like this.

If you have a dog that is going to be barking and growling outside at your neighbours and you cant be bothered so shout out a "no", dont let it out unattented simple as.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

trogdorable said:


> are they even as effective a training method as other methods?
> 
> would it not be confusing and frightning to the dog?


pets aren't trained... they learn to get with the program... raised and taught... like kids...

trained?

you teach kids and dogs...

you train other things... police... marines... circus ponies...

you raise family... train workers... employees...

let's start a thread about training children...

family dogs are family... training people...?? training family?

if you can't train something, you can fire it... fire your kids.. dog... grandma...

burger king trains things... family are taught... raised... developed...

working dogs are trained... family dogs are raised...


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Andy1987 said:


> Really? It depends on what he was being trained for...
> 
> Drugs, Bombs, People; Dogs are trained using the treat method, but can also have the collar. Protection/security dogs are trained using the collar
> 
> ...


He was a trainer, not a handler. He trained the handlers of dogs for many roles, The GSDs, the search and rescue dogs, the search dogs were a few I recall him discussing. None of his training involved electric collars or kicking or hitting the dogs. 

You seem to be unable to understand anything except all or nothing. People who lack the skills to train in a more constructive way could try and train any dog for any role with electric collars.

Protection and security dogs are trained to be protection and security dogs without using electric collars, it is a fact. This is not to say they all are. 

Like I said Dogs are trained for all the roles I mention without using collars. Not to say there are not a few backwards people who try negative techniques to meet the same means.

If the collar does not hurt then why not just use a buzzing collar? My guess is that before the point where they are using the non painful setting they have used a higher setting for a while to "prime" the dog Pavlov dog styley to expect pain.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Taking out the emotive side, the way I see it is similar to writing a book.

People use to use a typewriter, having already written the book by hand.

Over the years there is progress, computers have been invented and people have learnt new methods and an easier way of doing it.

Older people have not grasped new (and easier) techniques but is that a good reason to copy them?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Dog+ pain/shock= bad consequence whether it be a dog with a fear of humans or one that starts to bite back.


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## Evilshiddenclaws (May 25, 2010)

for once i'm actually agreeing with everything Kare has said here.

If you wish to use one on your dog, then go ahead. I personally don't see any need for it. It's not even a case of whether it hurts or not, it's just not needed.

If you can't be bothered to use other methods of raising your dog before you resort to a 'buzz' collar then i'd suggest you should not own one.

But i have no right to tell you what you can and can't do. You reap what you sow. So many dogs deserve better than what they end up with.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well said! :2thumb:


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

HABU said:


> pets aren't trained... they learn to get with the program... raised and taught... like kids...
> 
> trained?
> 
> ...


err, was that the answer to my question? a tangent on my choice of the word "trained" lol?

ok then, change the word trained in my question to the word raised.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

trogdorable said:


> err, was that the answer to my question? a tangent on my choice of the word "trained" lol?
> 
> ok then, change the word trained in my question to the word raised.


Wow I am glad I have had that on ignore for the past year or so and can't see his posts, what you quoted gave me a headache!! :lol2:


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

Kare said:


> Wow I am glad I have had that on ignore for the past year or so and can't see his posts, what you quoted gave me a headache!! :lol2:


you can have people on ignore =O lower blood pressure hear i come ! *scampers away to find out how*


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## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

Andy1987 said:


> This may cause many mixed reactions...
> 
> The use of an electric collar...
> 
> ...


 
Eh??????????
U should of took video evidence of the collar round ur neck and left us the link would of gotten a far better response :welcome:
My advice to you is....Buy a tin of tuna......Put a lead on it (And the shock collar as u never know things may get nasty) And go about your daily life minus a dog 

:whistling2:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

trogdorable said:


> you can have people on ignore =O lower blood pressure hear i come ! *scampers away to find out how*


Click on their name, on their profile page you have a written next to send them a message "User Lists" under there is place on ignore list. : victory:

Mine is a short but very valuable list of whack jobs!!


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Ive never used or seen one of these in the flesh but from what I've herd it just vibrates to get ur dogs attention doesn't sound to bad to me I don't think it actually emits a electric shock ?


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

jaykickboxer said:


> Ive never used or seen one of these in the flesh but from what I've herd it just vibrates to get ur dogs attention doesn't sound to bad to me I don't think it actually emits a electric shock ?


No, there's a difference between an electric shock collar and a collar that just vibrates/buzzes.


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## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

jaykickboxer said:


> Ive never used or seen one of these in the flesh but from what I've herd it just vibrates to get ur dogs attention doesn't sound to bad to me I don't think it actually emits a electric shock ?


That would be just as bad :censor:

Like a said get the person who started this thread a tin of tuna n they can shock it all they want :censor:


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

StaneyWid said:


> That would be just as bad :censor:
> 
> Like a said get the person who started this thread a tin of tuna n they can shock it all they want :censor:


What something that vibrates is ? Is That not how u train a death dog ?

Anyways my bad if I'm wrong but I'm shocked if they sell something that actually gives ur dog a electric shock ?


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm guessing you meant deaf dog?


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## Tequila (Jan 13, 2012)

Norwegian obedience teams are in the elite (we had the world champion last year) and the use of shock collars is banned in this country. Strange, isn't it.

IMNSHO, people who think shock collars are ok to use on dogs shouldn't be allowed to have pets - they are too stupid.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Shock collars = the lazy trainer's way, the inhumane trainer's way, the :censor: way!


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## RawrIsDinosaurForILoveYou (Apr 11, 2009)

*Alright, thats enough!*

lets get back to the actual point of this thread now? shall we?

I personally wouldn't use a shock collar, I know that Bella is very food orientated, I would only ever consider it if I had tried other options and the dog wasn't food or praise orientated.


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## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

RawrIsDinosaurForILoveYou said:


> *Alright, thats enough!*
> 
> lets get back to the actual point of this thread now? shall we?
> 
> I personally wouldn't use a shock collar, I know that Bella is very food orientated, I would only ever consider it if I had tried other options and the dog wasn't food or praise orientated.


 
Cheers :2thumb:


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## Tequila (Jan 13, 2012)

Shock collars - YouTube

:2thumb:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Shock collars = the lazy trainer's way, the inhumane trainer's way, the :censor: way!


I know what your mean but it is far more stupid than even that. It doesn't even stack up as a lazy way to train, because there are so many ways which are positive AND infinitely easier if it was a case of just being lazy.

It is training by teaching a dog what you do not want it to do rather than showing it what you do want it to do. 

It is an easy test to see what works best. Have another human in a room and get them to pick your chosen card from a deck lay out on the floor. First time say nothing but NO, and second time say YES every time they are heading toward your card. Do 10 of each in a group training exercise and even out the results (to lessen the impact of if they just happen to chance on your card early in a run) Yes runs will always come out quickest.

Of course the shock collar is more than just that, kind of akin to pointing out an animal in a field and trying to tell a child it is a cow by getting the kid to tell you what it thinks it is then smacking its hand everytime it gets it wrong. The easy and quick training would be to just tell the kid "that is a cow" :whistling2:


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Just chucking my 2p in..

I hate the idea of shock collars. Anything that's going to hurt, even a teeny bit, isn't a great idea in my eyes.

If I can train a dog with a clicker, having never owned a dog in my life and not really knowing the first thing about dog training, I reckon anyone can do it!!!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

RawrIsDinosaurForILoveYou said:


> *Alright, thats enough!*
> 
> lets get back to the actual point of this thread now? shall we?


I was just about to post that when I came to your post. I really cannot believe some people!! :roll:

So Jay is dyslexic and made a spelling mistake, does that mean he's open to rude comments and ridicule?? I just can't believe some people!

I actually thought he meant devil dog too, but realised when he clarified what he meant - end of confusion and no need to have a go!!!

There are loads of people on here who don't have dyslexia and can't spell and there are loads of wrong words in posts due to predictive text when people are using i-phones, that doesn't mean we should take the piss out of them! :bash:

Time you grew up Stanley Wld! and if you want to have a go at me, do it by pm instead of ruining a very interesting thread!


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Hopefully a mod will clear this thread up I didn't intend on taking it so off topic I just didn't realise they actually emitted a electric shock in that case as I've already stated not for me there's much easier and better ways to discourage a dog from doing wrong


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I understood exactly what you meant and I'm sure most of the other contributors knew too, but I don't blame you for standing up to unnecessary ridicule. I blame the idiot who kept bating you instead of just shutting up!

Anyway, back on topic!


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## FelixFelicis (Jun 4, 2010)

To put it simply - if there are kinder and more effective ways to train a dog/modify it's behaviour, then why resort to violence?

The effects of punishment using aversives has been extensively researched, and it has been found that animals learn much more effectively when positive punishment is not used. THIS IS A SCIENTIFIC FACT. There are two types of punishment - positive and negative. Shock collars are a form of positive punishment, as something is applied to supress a behaviour. The collar causes pain - of course it does, or it would not work as an aversive. Animals that are in pain or are scared lose much of their capacity to learn.
There is also a HUGE risk of the dog associating the pain with something else. This is unbelievably common! Someone walks past, the dog barks and is shocked. The dog then associates someone walking past with pain. Strangers = pain. You then have a dog that is scared of people and may defend itself by biting.

That's not to say all punishment, in the technical meaning of the word, is bad. Negative punishment - the removal of something good to supress a behaviour. Such as - dog jumps up at people to get attention. Remove the attention, and the behaviour of jumping up will gradually become extinct.
Importantly, and this is something often forgotton when negative punishment is used, you must then teach the dog what you DO want it to do in that situation. So for my example, you would give the dog what it wants (attention) when all four feet are on the ground.

You can use positive, scientifically valid methods to train anything, and to fix any behaviour problem. Grisha Stewart's BAT method (Behaviour Adjustment Training) is absolutely fantastic for helping with "problem" dogs. 

It truly saddens me how many dogs are mistreated in this way. I really hope the rest of the UK follows the example of Wales and bans shock collars. Since I own a gundog, my real bug-bear is that the practice of force fetching is still commonly accepted in the USA and Canada - the dog is shocked until it picks up the desired item then the shock is removed (negative reinforcement).


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Would you stick a shock collar on a child to make them clean their room or use the toilet rather than a potty?


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## vorny (Aug 12, 2011)

selina20 said:


> Dog+ pain/shock= bad consequence whether it be a dog with a fear of humans or one that starts to bite back.


My dog was barking at fireworks the night before last, I think more out of warning to us about a strange noise than out of aniety and fear, if I began using a shock collar on her to prevent barking I am fairly certain she would come to fear the fireworks (generally she is a very inquisitve dog but has a few uncertainties) rather than using a method which distracts her attention and rewards her for focusing on somthing else and opens her ability to learn


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree - you're making the dog 'assume' why it's getting a shock and it could easily get the association wrong.

My dog barks excessively, when anyone comes to the door, because he's a very anxious dog. I don't want him *not *to bark, as it's useful in today's climate to have a dog bark when someone rings at your doorbell, but I don't want the barking to continue throughout the time my husband is at the door because he can hear a strange voice. So the doorbell goes, I allow him to bark, then I say "no" and distract him, it's not easy because he's uncomfortable with the fact that he can hear a strange voice and obviously thinks my husband needs protection, but it does stop him barking.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

feorag said:


> I agree - you're making the dog 'assume' why it's getting a shock and it could easily get the association wrong.
> 
> My dog barks excessively, when anyone comes to the door, because he's a very anxious dog. I don't want him *not *to bark, as it's useful in today's climate to have a dog bark when someone rings at your doorbell, but I don't want the barking to continue throughout the time my husband is at the door because he can hear a strange voice. So the doorbell goes, I allow him to bark, then I say "no" and distract him, it's not easy because he's uncomfortable with the fact that he can hear a strange voice and obviously thinks my husband needs protection, but it does stop him barking.


I have actually found with mine the association with getting a treat after barking, stops them barking. They bark at the door and I say Good Girl, at that point they stop barking as they feel they have done their job and they will not bark the whole time I am speaking and then are all excited for their rewards after i have finished, even if I am at the door for 10 mins.

They have forgotten the point originally was to scare people away or alert us to something unusual. To them the point is to get a biscuit and trust me they put no more effort into it now than it takes to earn a Good Girl and thereby the promise of a future Bonio!!

Still sounds just as impressive to those hearing the barking though :whistling2:


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

That sounds like a good idea! Would like to try it on Buster. How do you time the treat? Wait till they stop barking or after the first bark?


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> That sounds like a good idea! Would like to try it on Buster. How do you time the treat? Wait till they stop barking or after the first bark?


To start with I would go "oh good girl, lets go get a cookie", and we would run off to the kitchen together before I opened the door. It distracted them and made them stop naturally, the cookie word always makes them pay attention and this house is tiny so it was not far lol 

Quickly they could stop barking and I could go to the door and reward them afterwards.

Sometimes they would restart the barking, but a quick "Utt" and learning myself to reward quicker next time and build it up to longer in more time worked.

I didnt really think about it, just knew I didn't want them to not bark, so didn't want to say No or anything, but equally I wanted them to know when to stop.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I have no idea why anyone would want or need to train a family pet using an electric collar!!
I know a few people who train Protection dogs and non use an electric collar 
Ive got 9 family pet dogs and they are all well adjusted dogs just by using reward based training.
Maybe you need to have a read of this!! Electric Shock Dog Collars - How shocked are you? Kennel Club calls for a complete ban - The Kennel Club


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I'll try that too, although as you know with Skye he is so anxious about everything and knowing there is someone at the door or in the house just winds him up terrible.


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## vorny (Aug 12, 2011)

We have a lot of training to do with molly, but luckily barking is one of the things she does exactly how you want (most of the time) she barks twice when she hears an odd noise or can hear the door and is unsure of who it is, mostly when I am in on my own or we are asleep :flrt: its useful but we have a downstairs neighbour who likes to complain at any noise we make. 
Kikopup on youtube has some great training videos and the barking one is good, it is close to what Kare is saying.


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## docmd087 (Jun 11, 2008)

*Shock collar*

I dont normally get in on these discussions, but couldnt resist.

I own a shock collar and have used it to great effect on my GSD bitch.

I probably shocked her twice with it 10 years ago, it also has an audible beeping noise on it. If I put it on her now even without the batteries in it she is much more obedient, she is nearly 11. 

Oh and when she sees the collar she is eager to get it on as she knows she is going out...if it bothered her surely she would shy away from it.

So you could say if used correctly it is a useful tool.

The reason I used it in the first place is she hates small dogs, her prey drive is so strong that no amount of calling, pulling on her lead, food distraction, stones in a can, squirting with water or these scented spray collars would distract her. Believe me I had tried everything, before I got a collar. 

I believe in responsible dog ownership, and going out for an enjoyable stress free walk, not constantly worrying that she will rip some small dog in half.

Yes I have tried it on myself on all four increasing levels, its not a pain giver, its a distractor from what she really wants to do.


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## liam peel (Sep 26, 2011)

They are humane and we know that because if not, they wouldn't be able to sell them.
If you have had around your neck then you know what your dog is actually getting 'hit' with in a way.
They are touchy as some people like them and some don't but if it doesn't harm the dog then why not.
Personaly I would make sure it gives off the same amount of shock each time so as I went to use it I am the test dummie, much better I get hurt once and order a new one then my do getting really hurt all the time without me noticing.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

docmd087 said:


> I dont normally get in on these discussions, but couldnt resist.
> 
> I own a shock collar and have used it to great effect on my GSD bitch.
> 
> ...




I reckon 2 times in 10 years is a bit diffrent tho , if that's true , he's planning on training the dog with it I'd imagine it will get a few more then 2 shocks I pretty much had the same thing but I opted for a choke chain


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

vorny said:


> We have a lot of training to do with molly, but luckily barking is one of the things she does exactly how you want (most of the time) she barks twice when she hears an odd noise or can hear the door and is unsure of who it is, mostly when I am in on my own or we are asleep :flrt: its useful but we have a downstairs neighbour who likes to complain at any noise we make.
> Kikopup on youtube has some great training videos and the barking one is good, it is close to what Kare is saying.


My dogs don't bark much except when there door goes or the hear a dodgy noise but it's literally two or 3 times a day for a few seconds , it's part of there job as far as I'm concerned . I'd find it worse if they didnt it's always nice for people to no they are there


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## docmd087 (Jun 11, 2008)

*Shock Collar*



jaykickboxer said:


> I reckon 2 times in 10 years is a bit diffrent tho , if that's true , he's planning on training the dog with it I'd imagine it will get a few more then 2 shocks I pretty much had the same thing but I opted for a choke chain


 
That is true mate !!!! But because the collar gives the beeping warning before the shock, the dog has a chance to correct its behaviour before it gets the shock. Ie, you press for the bleep and if the dogs stops the bad behaviour you release the button and hey no shock, this was learnt after two shocks, yes 10 years ago.
The collar is one of a pair, red and blue for two dogs controlled by two sets of buttons on one remote again red and blue so I could control both dogs. Yes I had two shepherds on it but the dog was so different to the bitch, he never needed shocking.

Oh Choke chains.... great bit of kit, if used correctly. Mine always wear them. But again in the wrong hands it can be used as it states.... to choke the dog.


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