# a civil discussion-morphs



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i've been wondering about this for some time. when it comes to keeping reptiles, what role or influence does all of these man-made varieties have on the hobby? i mean when does it go from keeping reptiles for what they are, to just collecting the prettiest or latest strain of creature? i admit that many color morphs are beautiful and i'm not trying to start any arguements, but when does studying the natural history and ecology of an animal become basicly collecting somethings for the sake of collecting? i started with reptiles way back in the very early '70's, essentially there were no morphs to speak of. studying reptiles and amphibians was akin to say studying wildlife but we were able to maintain them in captivity to our delight. our captives were merely examples of the ones that lived in the wild. then something happened. captive breeding began to produce oddities occasionally. these were bred to isolate those traits and produce even more strains. money i know was involved and that drove the practice.

i know that when i was young, by learning about the animals natural habits and habitat, you were able to figure out how to maintain them properly in captivity. now it seems, that many(not all) are just wanting to get a certain pretty animal and only want to know how to take care of it by reading a caresheet and maybe asking a few basic questions of a fellow keeper. i think caresheets are great but if one relies on a basic caresheet for all there is to know about their creatures, then isn't it kind of like just following a recipe? now there is nothing evil or improper about this because nearly always the animal is well taken care of, but by doing this does anyone think that those keepers are missing out on a major aspect of reptile keeping? i mean just knowing how to maintain something in captivity doesn't enrich your understanding of the actual species and how they fit into the natural world.

i'm not having a go at anyone or critizing anyone. i'm just trying to see where everyone's head is. in my early days it was called "herpetology" but now it seems to be "reptile keeping/collecting" sometimes now it seems that knowing how to keep a snake alive in a vivarium is secondary to knowing what it is and where it naturally lives. sometimes, and i apoligize for this, it appears to me that many good people have a stamp collecting mentality to keeping herps. is there a divergence between herpers and pet keepers?

i just thought that this would be a good subject for discission. it's not about right or wrong. it's just me trying to understand these things better.


if anyone wants to weigh in on this it would be nice. but please no defensiveness. just food for thought here. if this is a stupid or offensive thread, just ignore it.


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

You are so right. Now days its all about what people keep and breed. I was talking to a friend about this and he said the same thing. You could be the most knowledgable person out there conserning biology etc but if you don't keep or collect anything no one seems to care.


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

I think inbreeding to prove out a gene or introduce a new colour to the hobby is immoral but tbh i dont object enough not to keep the nice morphs - Hipocracy i know :no1:

Its a big shame herpetology has been long lost to reptile keeping and collecting though, people have a big stigma attatched to wild caught animals. If there's a large population of CB stock then fair enough but we have a lot to learn from WC animals and we could introduce a lot of new and interesting species to the hobby but people would rather have a royal in a fancy colour than have a new species introduced to the hobby and learn about a new species - big big shame but it does the hobby no harm imo.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

HABU said:


> i've been wondering about this for some time. when it comes to keeping reptiles, what role or influence does all of these man-made varieties have on the hobby? i mean when does it go from keeping reptiles for what they are, to just collecting the prettiest or latest strain of creature?


My partner and I are almost exactly opposed on this issue.

I love morphs, because I find genetic diversity and the inheritability of traits fascinating.
He likes normals, because he likes them for what they USUALLY look like in the wild.

If it weren't for blizzard leopard geckos, I wouldn't have leos - it was that bright white animal with blue eyeshadow that made me think "Wow, I want one of those!" The fact that I now own quite a few leos, and only three of them are blizzard-based... well, I like them for the animals they are, but I wanted one because I loved how the visual morph looked.



> i admit that many color morphs are beautiful and i'm not trying to start any arguements, but when does studying the natural history and ecology of an animal become basicly collecting somethings for the sake of collecting?


It becomes collecting for the sake of collecting when you don't keep them as individual animals, but as parts of a collection and the collection itself is worth more to you than the sum of the individual animals that make it. That's whether you're trying to get or create all the possible combinations of Lavender in corn snakes... or all the possible wild type localities of Greyband Kingsnakes.

Which is one reason every single one of my reptiles has a name - because they are individuals, not parts of a collection.



> our captives were merely examples of the ones that lived in the wild. then something happened. captive breeding began to produce oddities occasionally.


However, that's not actually how it happened.

The original base morphs - in MOST cases - came from wild caught animals.

For example, this year Crystal Palace Reptiles had a wild-caught Albino-type royal python in stock. Not captive bred, not captive farmed. It was a wild animal that was albino.

Captive breeding doesn't MAKE the original genetics happen - it just makes it more likely to happen AGAIN.



> now there is nothing evil or improper about this because nearly always the animal is well taken care of, but by doing this does anyone think that those keepers are missing out on a major aspect of reptile keeping? i mean just knowing how to maintain something in captivity doesn't enrich your understanding of the actual species and how they fit into the natural world.


Not everyone who buys a dog cares about the social structure of wolf packs (though it would be in their best interests if they did).
Not everyone who wants a pet rabbit is interested in how rabbits build warrens. 

And not every person who keeps a reptile is interested in anything more than having a reptile as a pet. 

I know I'm not THAT interested in, say, how Nile Monitors live in the wild - I just want to make sure I can successfully keep the one we've got alive and happy. If I start to have trouble, I'll be reading more about how he might be living in the wild in order to improve his conditions; if we're going fine, I am happy to stick with what works. On the other hand, I AM interested in how leopard geckos live in the wild, and I'd love to go and SEE how they live in the wild someday.



> is there a divergence between herpers and pet keepers?


Yes - there's as much of a difference between a herpetologist and a reptile keeper as there is between David Mech, who went and lived with wild wolves, and a person who's got a Jack Russell puppy piddling on their carpet. It doesn't make the pet keeper wrong - it just makes them not a scientist.

Not all herpetologists keep reptiles - and early herpetologists certainly did things we'd find abhorrent now, like clipping the toes/ventral scales of animals they were studying - _this is actually advocated for identification in my copy of Peterson's Field Guide to Western Reptiles and Amphibians_ - and not all reptile keepers are herpetologists.

Some people are pet keepers at heart.
Some people are scientists at heart.
Some people meet somewhere in the middle. I'm one of those.

Though my personal scientific interest is in the colour genetics as much as it is in the natural habitat and behaviour of the animals in question!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

vikki_john said:


> You are so right. Now days its all about what people keep and breed. I was talking to a friend about this and he said the same thing. You could be the most knowledgable person out there conserning biology etc but if you don't keep or collect anything no one seems to care.


This is, in my opinion, a hands on hobby.

You can be "knowledgeable" and have read a lot of books, done a lot of research... that doesn't mean that you could keep the reptiles alive in captivity or that you can put any practical application to that knowledge.

Knowledge and hands on experience need to go hand in hand. I have been breeding corn snakes for over 10 years and I still learn something new all the time. 

So for me, it's not about collecting and it's not about what you know - it's how you use it, it's about experiencing, learning, growing, being willing to embrace new ideas and adapt.

I choose corn snake morphs because they are so versatile, and there is still so much to explore genetically. I know sometimes it seems like kids in a candy store picking out their new colours, but for some, it's still about expanding, exploring, developing new things, pushing the boundaries..


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

all good points! i admit i see some of these animals and i do go ga-ga!! i feel that all camps are just facets of the overall hobby. the same thing has been going on in the fish keeping area for much, much longer! i just wanted to see other's veiws on the subject. it's a good area of pursuit when all types can be in the hobby. something for most anyone's taste.:no1:


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I'm in both camps really.. I always like to try and get pue normals.. well as good as I can get. This is just the purest in me. 

At the same time I do like some morphs.. the amount of work that people put into it is staggering.. but of course that also 'breeds' the people who see £ signs and get into it for the wrong reasons (imo). 

As long as the originals are preserved and don't disapear, I'm happy enough.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Personally as i'm not into breeding i wouldn't go trying to create different morphs but captive bred morphs are just really forcing together 2 'partners' that could breed naturally in the wild. It's just really a case of speeding up nature, nobody can categorically state that it won't happen if the different morphs crosses past during breeding season. Except of course if you're breeding 2 reps who's paths wouldn't normally cross.
Again with most man made morphs some of these morphs may already exist in the wild but not in the quantities we see on forums and google searches so we don't know about them.

(if that doesn't make sense its because i'm watching next weeks Prison Break as well)

Plus it'd be wrong for me to be against morphs seeing as my uncle is Eric Davies / Ricky Page


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Oh boy! What a subject, where do I start?
Like Habu I started keeping ‘exotics’ at the beginning if the seventies having kept a selection of native herps for a couple of years previous to that. Back then if some one offered you a captive bred reptile it was probably the result of a wild caught female giving birth on arrival at the pet shop and I don’t think I even heard the word ‘morph’ used until well into the eighties. 
Back then, like Habu said, I used field guides to work out how to keep my animals, in fact I often had to use the field guides to work out what it was I had just brought. 
Part of the excitement of the hobby was going down to the local importers at the weekend to see what wonderful new jewels had arrived during the week. As a teenager I would often arrive home with my new acquisition, armed only with information like "they were in a consignment from South Africa and look like some kind of mini Sun Gazer", and when there was a name, well, I once brought a nice little Anolis that grew into a four foot long spiny tailed iguana oops.
I was lucky when it came to caging as my father was a carpenter but for most keepers it was converted cupboards and fish tanks. Heating was light bulbs and if you wanted to actually control the heat you had to use fish tank thermostats. I did at one point find a source of UV lighting but it was designed for use in disco’s and I have no idea what the strength of the UV was, in fact I just thought UV was one strength. 
Live food was pretty much as now, we had crickets and locusts but they arrived in plastic tubs and some poor Saturday kid (me) spent hours counting them out into plastic bags. Rodents arrived from the breeder still alive and some poor Saturday lad (guess who) had to kill them and bag them as required by the customers.
Coming back to today I do see a lot of positive developments. It is great that you can get care sheets and indeed books on most of the animals available. It has never been so easy to replicate the specific environment for any given species and the range of equipment seems endless as does the choice of colour morphs available in a select number of species BUT it seems to me that we have lost a lot as well. Far too many people have brought into the anti wild caught ideology and have excepted the miss information put out by groups like Animal Aid. Without wild caught we wouldn’t have any of the reptiles we have today and without it continuing we will not see any new species entering the hobby. We are already losing the diversity of animals that used to be available, a walk around a reptile show in the early nineties would reveal thirty plus different spacies of snake and as many as forty different species of lizard. At last months Basildon show ninety-five percent of the stock consisted of just five species (Royals, Corns, Kings, Beardies and Leos). There might of been forty different morphs available but the variety of species was gone. I can’t help but feel sad at this loss of diversity and suspect that we may well have already lost a lot of potentially very popular species and I do fear that the craze in morphs is gradually leading us away from reptile keeping and into some weird version of live stamp collecting. 

I sometimes wish I could go back to about 1980 but still have all the equipment and knowledge of 2007 LOL

Natrix


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> Personally as i'm not into breeding i wouldn't go trying to create different morphs but captive bred morphs are just really forcing together 2 'partners' that could breed naturally in the wild. It's just really a case of speeding up nature, nobody can categorically state that it won't happen if the different morphs crosses past during breeding season. Except of course if you're breeding 2 reps who's paths wouldn't normally cross.
> Again with most man made morphs some of these morphs may already exist in the wild but not in the quantities we see on forums and google searches so we don't know about them.
> 
> (if that doesn't make sense its because i'm watching next weeks Prison Break as well)
> ...


it's artificial verses natural selection...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

natrix, i never realised i had a clone!!!:lol2: the early days are dead on...spooky!!:lol2:


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

This is what my concerns are.. the loss of availability. Of course things come and go, then come back again, but this last while, all you see is the animals listed above, and in all manner of colours, and for some crazy money!

Personally, as I mentioned, I have decided to go with the natural 'version' of any animals I go for.. and I hope to breed from them and maybe swap with a few others who have the same breeds, but want fresh bloodlines.

Another quest is to help preserve and maybe increase the population of the only indigenous reptile in Northern Ireland.. but that is a long term task and goal.

I know for a fact I will have a couple of 'pink' snakes, as that is one of the 'deals' I have made with the other half.. anything for a quiet life, eh?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

One thing that i like about morphs, is say one particular snake really appeals to you, it gives you the bonus of having visually different snakes from one species

What im not a big fan of, is people buying a morph just because its the must have for this season, i like the idea of morphs as finely tuning what is aesthetically pleasing to an individual, and others have said, many of these morphs are naturally discovered, man just enhances or decreases a certain colour/pattern to suit


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## Raiden (Sep 8, 2007)

My opinion on morphs is pretty much middle of the road (boring I know). I've had a long standing fascination with genetics, its application and theory going back to when ginger computer scientists called Clive were making machines that looked like doorstops and when not reading stuff everyone told me was "too advanced" (Z80 machine code manuals and advanced biology textbooks mostly) I was busy trying to beat "Jet Set Willy".

Back then, the idea that these big long chemicals could dictate what colour something was and how many limbs / heads / eyes it had fascinated me in a really Dr Moreau kind of way, but then I was only 8 at the time. :lol:

Now that i've got into the whole "reptile keeping" thing and discovered that the variety and diversity of these individual species and subspecies is WAAAAY beyond anything I'd thought possible the history of the differing morphs is what fascinates me. The serendipity involved in the original discoveries of the likes of Mack Snows, Blood morphs, etc. just boggles the mind.

The idea of keeping any animal reptile or not just because it matches your curtains is personally abhorrent... these wonderful animals deserve far more respect than that. Yet if the individual morphs in some way strengthen the knowledge and understanding of the public of herpetology in a more general sense then I can see multiple benefits, and example of which is my mum, she's not a fabn of "scaley things", but as an artist is fascinated by the diversity of colouration in wildlife of all types. One look at a pic of a rainbow boa or blood morph beardie and she's drooling. If an almost phobic like her can be made to see the beauty in these animals, even in such a superficial way then I fail to see the harm interest in differing morphs can bring to the table.

A bit of a wandering train of thought kind of post I confess, but just my twa'pennorth bashed out at silly o#clock in the morning


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

an honest, valid point of veiw. i can appreciate the fascination of it. it's not herpetology but something equal...genetics!!:no1:


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Great thread Habu.


The way we manage our collection, the way we plan for the future and the animals in our collection are all a balancve for us.

We have commons things, rare things, CB WC and everything in between. We have a great love and respect for the way things should be naturally but equally love some of the variety that morphs bring, as an example within our royal collection we have genetic morphs, CB babies, CF babies, CB sub adults and adults and LTC adults. Everything is there and everyhting has it's place and reason..

I've never been against WC, only against needless WC but recognise that it will always happen, some species will just always ben WC and CF through be it for financial reasons (eg boscs and iggies) or whatever.


One of the things you often here of on here is "wish list". I do think it's sad when you see people talk about what they want and it's only morphs they are interested in, it's like they have lost the point of what a reptile is and can only see either how much someonthing is worth or what colouration it is or how recent that particular cultivar is. A lot people seem to select a herp like they would select an item of clothing form a shop, they loose sight of the benefits, challanges and interests of keeping that species and see only how it looks, how much monetary value it represents and even worse in some cases the qudos that they think they get/they get for owning it.


Mason


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> One of the things you often here of on here is "wish list". I do think it's sad when you see people talk about what they want and it's only morphs they are interested in, it's like they have lost the point of what a reptile is and can only see either how much someonthing is worth or what colouration it is or how recent that particular cultivar is. A lot people seem to select a herp like they would select an item of clothing form a shop, they loose sight of the benefits, challanges and interests of keeping that species and see only how it looks, how much monetary value it represents and even worse in some cases the qudos that they think they get/they get for owning it.
> 
> 
> Mason


Amen to that bro!


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I purely buy something on its looks. I wont buy something that I dont like the look of. I dont buy stuff because I am interested in how it lives in the wild or if it will be a challenge to keep or not. If I like it, I like it! I dont mind if people want the newest morphs or the purest bloodline normal they can find. Its all part of the hobby. I only have a passing interest in how the animal lives in the wild if I am honest, I usually get advice on captive care from people who have kept them as it can differ to the wild.:smile:


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

I don't know about that. The more you know about natural history and physiology etc the more you can understand them. For example when people breed boas they give them a cooling period which does not hppen in the real world but if it works it works.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

vikki_john said:


> I don't know about that. The more you know about natural history and physiology etc the more you can understand them. For example when people breed boas they give them a cooling period which does not hppen in the real world but if it works it works.


 
You have that a little backwards..

the cooling period for boas is to try an emulate conditions in the wild that would indicate it's the correct time of year for them to breed. we provide a simulated version of that to increase the chances of captive breeding. It helps throw the "be sexually receptive" switch. It's a very loose cpative relpication of what happens to them in the wild, that's the point.

It's precisely because this happens in the wild that we do this.

Mason


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

from my point of view its very simple,if as i do ,you breed snakes for a living then you simply have to produce "new" things,the reason is that the "start point" ie a wc caught snake decreases in value the more often its bred in captivity,this leaves the professional breeder with two directions to chose from
1:breed vast numbers to make up for the decrease in value
2:breed morphs which then have a "new" value
if snakes pay for everything in your life then those are the two choices,if your money comes from elsewhere then you can afford to be moral about it.
regards gaz


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

vikki_john said:


> I don't know about that. The more you know about natural history and physiology etc the more you can understand them. For example when people breed boas they give them a cooling period which does not hppen in the real world but if it works it works.


many localities of boa constrictor do get considerable cooling,Argentine,Mexican,Carribean for example all experience fairly prolonged cooling at different times of the year, redtails also have cool dry periods when they are to be found in rodent burrows at an average temp of 22C,just being on or near the equator does not equate to constant temps and conditions,the microclimates inhabited by each animal have to be considered over and above the gross climate of the area
regards gaz


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm getting Deja Vu.... Read most of this somewhere else over the last few days... :lol2:


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

I see your point about the southern localities but on the equatorial part of the world tempertures only vary from a few degrees through out the year. Surley precipitation and photoperiod play a much bigger role then does temperature in tropical species .


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

I personally will buy a new morph of gecko if i/we like it, i'm fascinated by the genetics, not having a biology background, i find it a real challenge and an achievement when the light bulb goes on!!

Like Ssthisto, we name all our geckos, and i take time every evening handling, cleaning and feeding them. They all have individual personalities. And there is no favoritism as to the value of the gecko.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Not everyone who breeds boas cools them though. I know people who just put them together and they breed. I am not saying that looking at how they live in the wild is not right I am just saying that I would rather look to how other people have kept them in captivity succesfully.:smile:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

cbb common boa can be bred without temp cycling,although you will find the results to be better if some temp cycling is used,for other localities/species breeding without temp cycling simply wont work, redtails are routinely bred with NTL's of 68F,and while this might seem too low ,its whats needed to do the job,therefore its reasonable to assume that temps such as this are encountered by snakes in the wild, the Amazon basin gets temps down to 65F at various times and even has hail storms, for insular boas in the carribean the hurricane season has a great bearing on the subject, when i first bred crawl cay boas from wc stock they had to have a three month period of 70F day and night and be sprayed with cold water to get them into breeding condition,hardly "breeding without cycling". As mentioned in the last post guyana/suriname/brazilian redtails spend considerable periods hidden in rodent burrows at 22C which is far below the ambient air temps encountered by humans in the same environment, using humidity as part of a breeding program is sometimes useful,but on its own its very unlikely to be successful, even species such as Emerald tree boas which are very sensitive to temp changes in captivity ,have to be cycled to breed successfully.
in case anyone is wondering i have tried many of these suggestions(no temp cycling/just using humidity etc) over the years and none have worked for any of the animals in question,where as temperature cycling has produced excellent results with many species of south american boid right here with me,last year i had an argument about this with some one right in the middle of my inital temp cycling,so i put all the temps back to normal to see what would happen,result ALL courtship amongst my tree boas and boa constrictors stopped within a couple of hours,and remained at zero until temp cycling was resumed again,and went on to be a successful season for crawl cays/salmon boas/Corallus hortulanus/Corallus ruschenbergeri. Have a read of the "complete boa constrictor" by Vincent Rousso,definately the most up to date and concise book on boas out there,brings together the experiences of most of the top boa breeders around the world and pertinently,their thoughts on temperature cycling.
regards gaz


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

gaz said:


> Have a read of the "complete boa constrictor" by Vincent Rousso,definately the most up to date and concise book on boas out there,brings together the experiences of most of the top boa breeders around the world and pertinently,their thoughts on temperature cycling.
> regards gaz


Exactly,proves my point I would rather have a read of that, experienced views from the top boa breeders, than get a map out and have a look at the natural environment. I am more interested to see what people who have been there and done that say.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

vikki_john said:


> I see your point about the southern localities but on the equatorial part of the world tempertures only vary from a few degrees through out the year. Surley precipitation and photoperiod play a much bigger role then does temperature in tropical species .


if we are going to play the "constant temperature at the equator card" then we should realise that there is also a constant photoperiod at the equator too! not being sarcy,just could'nt resist. sorry
regards gaz


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

Andy said:


> Exactly,proves my point I would rather have a read of that, experienced views from the top boa breeders, than get a map out and have a look at the natural environment. I am more interested to see what people who have been there and done that say.


although getting to grips with the natural environment of any species is always the first step involved in the first breeding of a species,its only once you have cbb animals that you can begin to manipulate things to make life easier for yourself,and then only with some species,some remaim imprinted for many generations of captive breeding,for instance my F3 crawl cays are still imprinted as lizard feeders as neonates
regards gaz


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

i agree but i do not keep anything that hasn't been kept and bred in captivity before. I prefer to let other people with more experience lead the way. I am in the hobby but its only a hobby for me. I dont have any plans to breed the rare and exciting new snakes, I leave that to people like you then happily spend my money on the results.:smile:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

as an aside, boa constrictor longicauda regularly get NTL's(in the wild) down to 55F in the colder times of the year but will have DTH's very much higher due to clear skies and therefore unrestricted sunlight,also the amazon basin experiences a wet and dry season,some parts get two of each per year,during the dry times,with clear skies the night time temps will drop lower than usual while day times will be higher with the sun out all day,during the wet cycles the day/night temps will be vened out some what with constant cloud cover,so while there may well be parts of the basin that are reasonably constant with daily rains etc,there will still be temperature fluctuations from day to night and no doubt with the time of year,these areas no doubt produce the "hardest to breed" boas however even these have been bred in captivity with temperature cycling as the main tool,which to me shows that temperature variation is the main cue in the breeding cycle of these animals,whether that goes hand in hand with humidity and other factors doesnt seem to matter when it comes to captive breeding,i had a boamad friend once who made his boa breeding rooms airtight so that he could control air pressure,he figured that this was a key ingredient(low pressure in the wet season and vice versa in the dry) any way it didnt make any difference to his success and he went back to simple temp cycling,he was breeding amarali/ortoni/constrictor/orophias and various imperator
regards gaz
think i need to get out more:lol2:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

Andy said:


> i agree but i do not keep anything that hasn't been kept and bred in captivity before. I prefer to let other people with more experience lead the way. I am in the hobby but its only a hobby for me. I dont have any plans to breed the rare and exciting new snakes, I leave that to people like you then happily spend my money on the results.:smile:


 
it keeps me out of trouble i guess:lol2:
regards gaz


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

anyway i think we will be upsetting HABU as we seem to have strayed some what from the original thread:grin1:

now about those fancy goldfish.....................


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I am glad there are people who go to these lengths I couldnt do it I am not that dedicated I dont think.


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

i really like some of the morphs...some do originate from wild animals so not unnatural at all and one i think is big fascination to reptilekeeping...im sure nearly all of us have owned a morph reptile in one stage of our keeping
i see no problem in collecting easy to keep CB animals based on their colouration like corns and leos...it would be better than buying wild caught animals that are similar in the colour they are looking for


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I have no problem with the colour morphs really, if it wasnt for them the hobby wouldnt be as popular as it is today. I mean how many normal corns would people keep?:grin1:


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

gaz said:


> as an aside, boa constrictor longicauda regularly get NTL's(in the wild) down to 55F in the colder times of the year but will have DTH's very much higher due to clear skies and therefore unrestricted sunlight,also the amazon basin experiences a wet and dry season,some parts get two of each per year,during the dry times,with clear skies the night time temps will drop lower than usual while day times will be higher with the sun out all day,during the wet cycles the day/night temps will be vened out some what with constant cloud cover,so while there may well be parts of the basin that are reasonably constant with daily rains etc,there will still be temperature fluctuations from day to night and no doubt with the time of year,these areas no doubt produce the "hardest to breed" boas however even these have been bred in captivity with temperature cycling as the main tool,which to me shows that temperature variation is the main cue in the breeding cycle of these animals,whether that goes hand in hand with humidity and other factors doesnt seem to matter when it comes to captive breeding,i had a boamad friend once who made his boa breeding rooms airtight so that he could control air pressure,he figured that this was a key ingredient(low pressure in the wet season and vice versa in the dry) any way it didnt make any difference to his success and he went back to simple temp cycling,he was breeding amarali/ortoni/constrictor/orophias and various imperator
> regards gaz
> think i need to get out more:lol2:


Very well put, i'd also point out things like lack of sucess when trying to breed many types of BCC and the more tricky customers of the BCI world using photoperiod cycling only, temperature cycling along with a little bit of male/male competition seem to consistantly produce the best results. While photoperiod cycling can and does help, temperature seems to be the key. nothing presses the horny button in boas like those temperature changes!

Mason


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

But i ve got some boas at home aswell. Don't that instanty make me a world renowned expert ?

Sorry couldn't resist i ll stop now.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

hehehehe we aint too good at this resisting comments lark,how about being the renowned ironville boa expert?:lol2:anyways back to the morphy thangs
regards gaz


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## claire_e_dodd (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm a pet owner, plain and simple. 

Originally I wasn't even that bothered about snakes, I liked them, but had no desire to keep them. My ex did, so I bought him one, and I loved her, so we got another, he left, I got the babies, and they are the one thing that makes me not regret being with him.

I got into snake keeping with no knowledge or research, something which I now know was irresponsible, but I've done alot of reading since then to make up for it! I recently bought my third corn snake, and put an order in for the corn run next year, for a butter and a bloodred. These snakes were chosen purely because I like the morph, but they will be pets at the end of the day. I may breed in the future, but it was never my intention when getting into the hobby. I will probably stick to mainly corns, they are easy to keep and I love the fact that their colours are so varied.

I am far from a hepertologist, but I admire the work they do, as if it weren't for them the hobby would probably not exist, but my snakes are for me, I don't care where they come form or how they live in the wild because as my pets, I think it's kind of irrelevent. I enjoy reading about them, but I don't think it would be the end of the world if I knew nothing about their wild relatives.

I love my snakes, I love caring for them, they are healthy and happy and that's all that matters to me.


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