# Five years to go and downwards counting!



## TSKA Rory Matier

Sadly l think that despite some forlorn thoughts on the subject, if something is not done, I truly do believe that the industry as we know it will be lost.

As a consultant l have seen the politics for primates change dramatically in the last year, and knowing that secondary legislation is soon to be upon us, do genuinely fear for those passionate and responsible keepers what the new primate codes will hold?

Perhaps keeping primates as a species will soon be lost? Seriously restricted.

I have said this before that if primates disappear, then so too will exotic cats and the ability to actually ever own one should a passionate keeper find themself in the position where one day they might be able to.

But perhaps those amongst the RFUK membership now do not wish to own primates, or exotic cats, or even mammals and are content with just your herping.

Are you truly safe from the throes of todays' legislation, the advancement of protocol? The movement of the oppositions?

No, l do not believe that anyone is safe now, no fraternity is safe from what is approaching and what potentially lies beyond.

I write beyond, because none of us truly know what there is just beyond our line of sight.

I am accused of scaremongering as indeed are others of this forum.

But l find this forum fascinating, that in the short while that l have been here, to see so many genuinely passionate keepers pride themselves on their ability to keep and that their husbandry is true, yet, there is no passion nor love to seek further informations nor truths about what can be done to preserve their 'rights to keep animals'.

For you do have the right to keep animals, as long as your husbandry is true and as long as you are keeping your species in a responsible fashion.

I read somewhere here tonight that the British people are constantly trampled on by the government - sorry this is not so - you allow this to be the case.

You allow others to decide your fates - why?

Listen up, unless something is done, not the demanding that parties exchange hands nor we find a new leadership, but unless we do express our concerns more openly and ask 'what can we do, not what can you do for us' then yes, the ability to keep herps in the UK will be lost!

2012 is just five years away, you have seen changes already, small and discreet, what happens when they are much bigger - is it then too late to scream and stamp feet?

What are your views?

How will you feel if your hobbys, passions and business's are lost through the apathy of others and the strength of the opposition?

Rory Matier


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## SuperTed

il be dead by then so not sure i can comment  but it does make you think dosnt it!


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## SiUK

Kellogscornsnake! said:


> il be dead by then so not sure i can comment  but it does make you think dosnt it!


why?


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## Poppy's mum

The thing is not enough want to make the effort to stop these changes, most leave it too the few to fight the cause (no matter what it is). Then shout about it later.

They want to ban us keeping our pets and they want to ban off road motorsport (motocross)............thats the 2 things I love makes me so mad.

My son does not go around mugging old ladies in the street......in the evenings he can be found in our workshop cleaning his bike etc.......its his passion his life.........and some jumped up jerk in a suit wants to ban it!!!

I love my snakes, care for them take time and effort to make sure everything is tiptop. JUst like everyone on here does. We have the right to be able to do this.


This goverment needs a kick up the bum, they should be out there inforcing the laws of the land, not making new ones!!!!!!

Kick the yobbo's into shape first NO 10!!!!!!!!

THATS MY MOAN OF THE DAY OVER SORRY FOLKS:lol2:


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## SuperTed

SiUK said:


> why?


well im planning on buying a gaboon viper and giving it kisses... it makes me sick to think of a world without reptiles!


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## Poppy's mum

Kellogscornsnake! said:


> well im planning on buying a gaboon viper and giving it kisses... it makes me sick to think of a world without reptiles!


If they ban both reptile keeping and motocross, can I have slopping seconds :lol2:


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## SuperTed

well i wont be around after i get mine so its all yours! : victory: :lol2:


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## VieT

to be fair... i think many people on these forums will just not stop..

i know for a fact that i would harry on keeping... if i get caught i get caught... but as long as i keep it quiet.. ti shud b fine 

peace

James


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## Athravan

My question is, for all the people who are urging and trying to motivate...

What do you expect people to do about it?!

Last time we had these sorts of threads I wrote a very long piece and sent it to several MPs who ignored it. I posted it here, and a lot of people said they would send that letter to their MPs. I believe most were ignored. It certainly never made any "difference", so from a practical point of view, bombarding MPs seems pointless.

I am at a loss for what else I can do. I do not believe it scaremongering. I believe it could happen. I am not in a position to have any impact on the government. I could go and stand at number 10 and wave a stick saying "save our hobby" and be called a lunatic :lol2:

I feel very frustrated that I cannot seem to actually be helpful. I pay for membership to all the societies. I don't know what they do with my money, I hope that helps, but in reality, I doubt it does. I have offered many people help.. and never actually been given anything to do.

Perhaps i'm just not trying hard enough or creative enough or political enough to understand what my role could be in actually doing anything at all to help the hobby... that I don't already do, which is to provide education, support conservation, hand out caresheets, keep a clean shop, provide a rescue and rehoming service... give advice and spend my evenings on here...

What else am I supposed to do?


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## wohic

VieT said:


> to be fair... i think many people on these forums will just not stop..
> 
> i know for a fact that i would harry on keeping... if i get caught i get caught... but as long as i keep it quiet.. ti shud b fine
> 
> peace
> 
> James


Mmmmm underground keeping, how would that work, i presume you would breed our own food, become your own vet, etc ?
I guess the theory could work but in practise it could lead to neglect. (should , for example, one of your snakes become ill or egg bound, and you were keepng illegally, you would not be able to seak vetenary help)

Animal Rights people would like to see the back of all animal keeping, we are already legislated on what types of dogs we can keep.........


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## Trice

Athravan said:


> My question is, for all the people who are urging and trying to motivate...
> 
> What do you expect people to do about it?!
> 
> Last time we had these sorts of threads I wrote a very long piece and sent it to several MPs who ignored it. I posted it here, and a lot of people said they would send that letter to their MPs. I believe most were ignored. It certainly never made any "difference", so from a practical point of view, bombarding MPs seems pointless.
> 
> I am at a loss for what else I can do. I do not believe it scaremongering. I believe it could happen. I am not in a position to have any impact on the government. I could go and stand at number 10 and wave a stick saying "save our hobby" and be called a lunatic :lol2:
> 
> I feel very frustrated that I cannot seem to actually be helpful. I pay for membership to all the societies. I don't know what they do with my money, I hope that helps, but in reality, I doubt it does. I have offered many people help.. and never actually been given anything to do.
> 
> Perhaps i'm just not trying hard enough or creative enough or political enough to understand what my role could be in actually doing anything at all to help the hobby... that I don't already do, which is to provide education, support conservation, hand out caresheets, keep a clean shop, provide a rescue and rehoming service... give advice and spend my evenings on here...
> 
> What else am I supposed to do?


Give us that letter again. I must have missedit.. But i'll send it to the mps in my area lol


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## glidergirl

Kellogscornsnake! said:


> well im planning on buying a gaboon viper and giving it kisses... it makes me sick to think of a world without reptiles!


That'll help them make the decision to ban the keeping of venomous snakes then!!! I don't think you'd be very popular then!!


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## Snakes r grreat

VieT said:


> to be fair... i think many people on these forums will just not stop..
> 
> i know for a fact that i would harry on keeping... if i get caught i get caught... but as long as i keep it quiet.. ti shud b fine
> 
> peace
> 
> James


As julia said James, its not as simple as just keeping quiet about it. You could breed your own food yes, until they ban keeping pet mice, or you get caught, double trouble then!!! Also if theres no hobby, there is no industry! Equipment manufacturer's will dissapear, afterall, if theres no market, there not going to waste money on it! Vivs could be replaced with tubs, hides could be made DIY style, but how will you heat your vivs accuratly?????

And then, what happens if you get burgled, cant call the police can you? Or you fall out with a good mate, and they decide to get their own back! Yes they are extremes, but dont rule them out if we do lose! 

The point is, you cant just sit back and think that by doing nothing, it will ok either way, if you want to carry on keeping, you have to do your bit now, however small that is!


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## Andy

I am worried too and would want to do what I can but...look what happened with fox hunting etc. there were protests in London and the people involved carried alot more sway than us reptile keepers. There was the countryside alliance and other pro hunting groups. It didnt work at all. What can we seriously expect to do if the government has it in for us? Dont get me wrong I am not giving up and letting them take my reptiles but I am getting a bit peed off with people saying people are letting the government trample on us and people are sticking their heads in the sand and then not telling us what we can do. We have tried contacting our MPs and joined all the organisations that are out there like the FBH and we try and promote our hobby in the best possibe way but what else can we do? By we i mean the average everyday hobbyist who works full time and has a few snakes/lizards. The only way we can get any recognition is if they made any threats towards keeping any pets and the whole nation took that threat seriously. If the whole pet keeping population of the UK contacted their MP then they would have to listen!


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## SiUK

I sent two of those letters via post and emailed it as well to all the councillers in my area and didnt recieve a single reply or even recognition that they had recieved it.


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## Snakes r grreat

I know what you mean Andy, but at least the pro fox hunting groups tried their hardest to stop the ban, they didnt just roll over, surely we should be doing the same?


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## spider_mad

No point in trying to make govt understand they seem to be more interested in restricting normal law abiding citizens of their fun and hobby yet allow yobs to beat the cack out of people on streets for no reason and talking a load of cr*p but not doing anything about it. No point trying to make a difference as they dont care about anyones interest but their own I have never trusted a politician since I was old enough to understand and still feel the same. I felt the same about the Irish govt when I lived there too. At the end of the day the govt are there to make the rich man richer and the poor man poor and only care about the money in their own back pocket


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## TBUK

Well since this weekends f**k up with the show. Myself and a few others have uncovered some things very interesting about whats going on in the hobby. I'm not sure what we can do about it but I think people would be suprised to hear some of the people we all know and trust arn't quite as they seem. (handy Ben Bradshaw being Exeters MP)
So if anyone is a councillor , free mason :lol2: or solicitor please help us all save the hobby from the people that will gain from us lossing out


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## Ally

I wrote to my MP, he replied saying he agreed as he knew people that kept reptiles. Lovely!

But what has happened about it? I have no idea... Don't know what votes have been going on up there in MP land, what's been said - if anything...

Did it help? I'm not sure...


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## SuperTed

il go have a chat with gordon brown tomorrow when we go our for a beer!


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## Fixx

TBUK said:


> Well since this weekends f**k up with the show. Myself and a few others have uncovered some things very interesting about whats going on in the hobby. I'm not sure what we can do about it but I think people would be suprised to hear some of the people we all know and trust arn't quite as they seem. (handy Ben Bradshaw being Exeters MP)


No chance of giving us the heads up I suppose TBUK? Or could it end in court appearances.


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## Guest

TBUK said:


> Well since this weekends f**k up with the show. Myself and a few others have uncovered some things very interesting about whats going on in the hobby. I'm not sure what we can do about it but I think people would be suprised to hear some of the people we all know and trust arn't quite as they seem. (handy Ben Bradshaw being Exeters MP)
> So if anyone is a councillor , free mason :lol2: or solicitor please help us all save the hobby from the people that will gain from us lossing out


mm very interesting 

pms work lol


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## Tops

This thread and http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/gene...mportant-reptile-shows-law-19.html#post734724 see to be crossing over and amalgamating


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## Stubby

> I sent two of those letters via post and emailed it as well to all the councillers in my area and didnt recieve a single reply or even recognition that they had recieved it.


I wrote to my MP, but never recieved a reply, I'm also at a loss as to what to do next...


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## TBUK

Fixx said:


> No chance of giving us the heads up I suppose TBUK? Or could it end in court appearances.


Sorry as much as I really do want to tell everyone I can't or it could all end up in court and we would end up with nothing being done. 
When we can say without being dragged through court the forums will be one of the first to know don't worry


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## Andy

Snakes r grreat said:


> I know what you mean Andy, but at least the pro fox hunting groups tried their hardest to stop the ban, they didnt just roll over, surely we should be doing the same?


To be honest I dont think that even all the members of this forum, Livefoods and Captivebred marching in London would make any difference unfortunately. The problem is the general public couldn't give a toss if a load of wierdos who like to keep snakes etc cant do it any more. I mean how do you expect the general public to stick up for us when most of them think all snakes are deadly and will eat their children? Look at the nurses pay debate. They should by rights have the support of every single person in this country but noone gives a poo so they still earn naff all. Look at the Iraq war. A million people marched in London and the government still sent us. I think people need to think of a different way to solve this problem because in my opinion petitions, flyers, marches dont do f*ck all. Dont ask me what we can do because I dont have a clue!


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## TBUK

Stubby said:


> I wrote to my MP, but never recieved a reply, I'm also at a loss as to what to do next...


If you still have copys send them to me please


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## shiva&kaa123

I personally don't understand why they would want to stop people keeping reps anyway, what's the difference between them and any other pet?
Ben


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## Ssthisto

shiva&kaa123 said:


> I personally don't understand why they would want to stop people keeping reps anyway, what's the difference between them and any other pet?
> Ben


They're not domesticated animals.
They're scaly, so they're cold and horrible.
They're wild animals and should be left in the wild.
They don't show love and you can't cuddle them.
They haven't been bred for temperament and conformation.
They're weird.
We don't like them.
They scare me.
I don't know why, but the animal rights people think it's a good idea.

And last but not least:

"Better dead than in captivity" - the Animal Rights mantra.

THAT is why they want to stop us keeping reptiles - because we're looking like the Anne Droid's "Weakest Link". 

Get a toehold, maybe they can start chipping away at other 'fringe' parts of the hobby. Fancy keeping large parrots? Primates? How about animals on the CITES endangered species lists?


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## ashbosh

if the government ban us from keeping reptiles, where are we going to hand them in? they wouldnt just expect 500,000 reptiles to fall on their laps would they? if you have your own you could breed them and never be without reptiles. just my thought


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## DeanThorpe

I reckon if it did coem to that it would first be a ban on selling them, you would prolly be ok with the ones you currently own to start with.
then it would prolly be once they ar eover this size [in the case of large boids] you must pay this much special tax or give them up for dog food, and on from there.


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## ratboy

ashbosh said:


> if the government ban us from keeping reptiles, where are we going to hand them in? they wouldnt just expect 500,000 reptiles to fall on their laps would they? if you have your own you could breed them and never be without reptiles. just my thought


They would not ban the ones you already keep... well they would some of them through the AWA ... but for the rest they just need to ban imports into the country, ban sales on the internet, ban shows and make it illegal to sell reptiles in shops.

They then just have to wait for the reptiles we now have to die. Breeding would be pointless because you cant sell the babies and most frozen rodent suppliers would move on to other stuff within a year or so, so you would be forced to breed your own food like it or not.


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## tazzyasb

that sounds like the way they would go.

it would cost to much money to have a big everyone must hand in their reptiles. Plus loads of people would not so how would they enforce it. how would they know which house to search for ones hidden away.

Would it be like hitler and the jews or america and the communists.
Secret police and neighbours and friends reporting you.

If you think about it to go down the direct ban route would take too much time, effort and money.

Much easier to ban the sale and breeding and wait for the ones we have to die.


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## Snakes r grreat

tazzyasb said:


> Much easier to ban the sale and breeding and wait for the ones we have to die.


 
So you are just going to let that happen?

Im sure your not, but your reponse gives me that impression.


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## sparkle

i dont want to let is JUST happen.. but i keep asking what can i do... ive been told off for asking what can i do like im meant to know..

Im fed up wuth everyone bickering...

if the bickering stopped maybe more people would want to get behind this....


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## Snakes r grreat

sparkle said:


> i dont want to let is JUST happen.. but i keep asking what can i do... ive been told off for asking what can i do like im meant to know..
> 
> Im fed up wuth everyone bickering...
> 
> if the bickering stopped maybe more people would want to get behind this....


 
Who told you off??

I haven't seen any bickering, maybe im wrong? Ive seen alot of questions being asked, and opinions being made known yes...

But yes, still not many answers.


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## tazzyasb

Snakes r grreat said:


> So you are just going to let that happen?
> 
> Im sure your not, but your reponse gives me that impression.


 
No I was looking it from the governments stand point.

I agree that something needs to be done. However I am at a loss as to what.

I think it was andy who said earlier on in this thread that petitions, marches and so on will not work, I totally agree.

A ban of any sort on reptile keeping will effect the nation in different ways against, for and not bothered. Same as the smoking ban. If you think about the number of people against the smoking ban compared to those against a ban on reptile keeping. You will begin to see where I am coming from.

What did people do about the smoking ban nothing really, it British Society.

Now do not think I would go down with out a fight. I can say now I would keep my reptiles illegally if thats what it came down to. 

I want to do something to stop the government going down the road of a ban or restriction reptiles.

Major problem is I do not know what to do.


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## Snakes r grreat

I see where you are coming from now. 

I think alot of people are at a loss as what to do, other than writing to MP's etc, (although we have heard it doesnt seem to be doing much), people have shown quite an interest in helping, yet little information is coming though on what we can do, or where we currently stand. Maybe ratboy is right, and its up to those of us who are serious enought to contact the FBH directly rather than waiting for the magical answers to appear. 

Yes petitions and Marches have proved and continue to prove they do nothing to change the course of things, or do they? Surely it is a start of at least showing the powers that be that you are serious about the issue, and use it as a platform to move forward onto other methods. 

British Society is very good at letting things happen, but we have not always been, seem's this has come about since labour have been in power. Remember the Poll tax riots, the fuel blockades, the very fact that we voted Labour in with such a big majority shows we can change things when we chose to! 

One thing im sure of though, the negative give up attitudes cant help the situation, people need motivating, not knocking down before they have even started.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi, 

When l put this post up, it was as a side post to the other thread about the laws.

People do need to be motivated , but also it was see what responses there would be in all honesty.

This is not blowing the trumpet of TSKA, but for the last two year we have promoted the FOCAS banner in order to promote and highlight political problems within the industry.

For two years we followed as a brand the website code of practice laid out by FOCAS, and for two years we slowly intergrated systems within the brand such as vetting on primates and dwa licenced animals at much controversary and at times hostility from the buyers market.

The point being raised here as/is that awareness from the market has always been slim.

We also introduced many motivational ideas for raising money for FOCAS and all were received with what one can only perceive as humour as well as dis interest.

Sad but true the reason the reptile thread [laws] came about was due to the demise of the Exeter show, which was seen as a disaster because it did not go ahead.

It should not take a disaster for people to be politically aware.

Politics such as threatens our hobby have been available on this site [FOCAS] for the last two years and because of the complexities of the political talking and very heavy reading, only a few people take on board what is being said and what is therefore being read.

Politics is not something people really wish to get involved with and of course the 'heads in the sand' and demotivations do cause people to back away and not bother with such things.

So fine people want direction and they want to see motivational tools being used to encourage them about their hobby.

As to how one in so far as individuals motivate or how an organization can motivate passionate keepers is not always easy to achieve, and as someone recently quoted, Rome was not built in a day.

But the main thing to realise is that those that do tackle the legislation do so with out the help from the actual fraternities that they are fighting for. I am not saying this is right , but please consider that if for two years only a handful of websites and retailers and keepers have allowed the writings of politics to become part of their lives, and it takes a disaster for people to think now politically, it is and would be hardly surprising for those battling to not readily rely upon a community that did not wish to get involved with politics in the first place, for their help.

Rory


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## Fixx

Rory,
I tend to keep abreast of developments concerning 'the hobby' but I have never seen any reference to 2012, where did you glean this bit of info from please?


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## annarism

i think its conspiracy theories gone wild yes it will happen eventually because the government wants the country to be uniformed robots yes sir no sir no feelings no thoughts a single unit. the only animals we will see are the speciemens kept in zoos not the well loved and cherished pets we have at home. i have no respect for a man who sits behind a desk who has probably never as much as even touched a snake or lizard decide their fate . 

2 fingers up to the man if there is something i can do to save my pets than tell me where to go who to make the most noise at my pets are my babies (my son even calls them his brothers and sisters bless him)


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## Tops

annarism said:


> uniformed robots yes sir no sir no feelings no thoughts, a single unit.


United we stand, divided we fall?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*yes...*

Tops, 

You are probably not a follower of the TSKA campaigning for FOCAS, but this is just one of the slogans that has been bandied about.

I am as l have said, an antagonist, illiciting response.

I think one of the more appropraite slogans was 

"Divided We Stand, and United we will fall"

As a reptile keeper, you are but one section of the full fraternity base that makes up the industry.

Albeit, reptiles and the avian market are by far the strongest, but all the fraternities stand alone. The whole campaigning concept was launched at trying to make more of a cohesive stand, bringing all under one roof, it s not that simple.

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*2012*

Hi Fixx, 

Then you will know, that 2010 in fact was a figure that was looking at primates being restricted in their keeping, by government at one point.

As said it is not just about reptiles, but all the fraternities are under threat, not just the latter.

As a reptile keeper, you may have views on the keeping of primates, many reptile keepers are against the keeping of primates, as indeed, many mammal fraternities are against the keeping of reptiles, hence why trying to achieve a cohesive stand is difficult.

2012 came around as a figure briefly talked of that basically said - 'well how would reptile keepers feel if in five years, they did not have the ability to keep reptiles at all?'

Five years from now is 2012.

R


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## gaz

we had the same problem with fighting the hunt ban,fishermen wouldnt support hunting if the were from urban backgrounds,some shooting people were pro and some against,all divided and argumentative.
end result everyone loses,soon as hunting was ostensibly banned the antis turned their attentions to shooting/fishing,now these people in turn are sqawking for the help of the same hunting fraternity that they cast to the wolves,people are too dumb to react to threats until its way too late,simple as that,if you get get everyone to cough up £10 to fund the people who are actually getting to grips with our government,then progress would be forthcomming perhaps
regards gaz


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Spot on...*

Hi Gaz, 

You are right, and this is the biggest problem we face politically.

No one fraternity wishes to be seen under the same banner as another fraternity.

So with that kind of attitude, we will always be stumbling around.

If we can not show and display a united front to the opposition, then they are always going to think we are an easy target, especially as apathy is just as hard nosed as the opposition in the UK alone.

So if we join apathy and opposition together, bugger, but we have a hard ol' battle ahead of us.

Rory


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Also...*

I am sure that most of you will have read this now, and l do appologise if this has already been posted up, but it does' make for jolly reading'.

Many of you would have been aware of the raised petition by Roger Davis, that asked/demanded a public enquiry into the regulation of the RSPCA:

Petition to: Hold a public enquiry into the polices and running of the RSPCA.

After a year, this petition only managed to raise 2028 signatures, which is really quite bad considering the fact that there must be at a minimum of 60k [someone correct me if l am wrong here] of keeper users on the internet.

But then we only have to see the response the smokers petition got and that had some 20k signatures to it.

So what chance would a mere 10% have in reflection?

But this was the Governments response:

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 - as with most other legislation - is a 'common informers act'. That means any person or organisation can bring a private prosecution under the legislation. It is because anyone can initiate criminal proceedings under animal welfare legislation that the RSPCA successfully prosecutes between 750 and 1,000 people each year who have been found to have caused unnecessary suffering to animals.

There is no evidence to show that this current arrangement is not working. Indeed the evidence suggests the contrary: the RSPCA are successful in some 97% of cases they bring before the courts (2004). That is a very high success rate and clearly justifies the RSPCA's general approach. The Government is not aware of any complaints from Magistrates' Courts about the way the RSPCA bring cases before them and we are satisfied that there are adequate safeguards in place within the judicial system to ensure that the right to bring private prosecutions is not abused.
The Government works closely with the RSPCA to ensure this country has the highest animal welfare standards. The RSPCA has played a crucial role as enforcers of animal welfare law for more than a hundred years, and the Government hopes that they will continue to do so in the future.

Found Here:

rspcainquiry - epetition response

So as l have said on both the TSKA Legislation site and Pro Keepers Lobby, l feel that the RSPCA are here to stay.

If this shows the reader that the RSPCA are backed by the 'leaders', is this not potentially another reason to think along the lines of what could happen in our future?

Also interestingly enough, another petition raised by Chris Newman himself in March of this year:

TSKA Legislation | Right Politics, Right Now

Has only 736 signatures, and is a very slow movement petition:

TSKA Legislation | Right Politics, Right Now

The fraternities wish to see the RSPCA looked into and potentially removed from action and of course this will not/never happen, so really quite a pointless exercise.

The opposition have/has some 200+ million pounds in reserve, with the pro's side to the industry holding a mere 1 million pounds. So l can see that our campaigning could be a lost leader in many ways.

Rory Matier


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