# vivarium



## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

hi guys im would like to get a royal python for my first snake i wont be getting it for quite a while though im going to do as much research as i can  i was just wondering what size vivarium would be good and do you know a good website to get one from 
thanks in advance :2thumb:


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## reptilefocus (May 30, 2013)

if you are completely new to herpetology, I would advise against getting a big snake as a first reptile. I would recommend getting a smaller snake to start with, such as a corn, rat or garter snake. Big snakes can be temperamental, hard to feed and can require a LOT of room and attention and I would only recommend you get one once you are comfortable with the 'mechanics' of the husbandry of snake keeping.

From experience: far better getting bitten whilst feeding by a 4 corn snake than a 6 foot boa!


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

i have read that royal pythons are best for beginners next to corn snakes is that not correct ?


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## gazza1973 (Aug 19, 2009)

I would personally stick to the royal if that's what your heart is set on? As longs you do your research and when you do buy your royal make sure its well started and feeding well, vivarium will depend on what size royal you buy, if a baby or yearling you will want a small viv or rub, if adult I would say a 4ft viv, have a nose at the equipment classifieds always a few on there? Hope this helps :2thumb:


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## reptilefocus (May 30, 2013)

Royals are the hamsters of the 'big' snakes - ie when you think of moving up to bigger snakes, typically you would be recommended a royal (not my personal advice).

You need to ask yourself why you want a snake. If it is to learn, experience etc then best practise would be to start off small and work your way up. That way, you ensure you get the best practice and experience and will reduce any problems with snake handling as you get more and more complex snakes.

If you want it just so you can say you own a big snake, don't get one, get a rabbit or gerbil (or other such furry critter).


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

thanks guys im getting some great advice all ready :2thumb:


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

my heart is set on the royal i know they can live between 30-45 years so i want to get something im happy with :2thumb:


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

reptilefocus said:


> if you are completely new to herpetology, I would advise against getting a big snake as a first reptile. I would recommend getting a smaller snake to start with, such as a corn, rat You know some species of rat snake will get to 9ft? not to mention corns are rat snakes...  or garter snake. Big snakes can be temperamental so can all snakes, hard to feed depends what you mean by hard to feed? If you mean cost and sourcing food large enough, then yes. If you mean getting them to take food - not so much.. If you mean and can require a LOT of room and attention and I would only recommend you get one once you are comfortable with the 'mechanics' of the husbandry of snake keeping.
> 
> From experience: far better getting bitten whilst feeding by a 4 corn snake than a 6 foot boa!





reptilefocus said:


> Royals are the hamsters of the 'big' snakes - ie when you think of moving up to bigger snakes, typically you would be recommended a royal (not my personal advice). I have never heard that - a large female boa perhaps or a blood python, but not a royal.. they aren't exactly huge!
> 
> You need to ask yourself why you want a snake. If it is to learn, experience etc then best practise would be to start off small and work your way up. Don't agree with that necessarily That way, you ensure you get the best practice and experience and will reduce any problems with snake handling as you get more and more complex snakes.
> 
> If you want it just so you can say you own a big snake, don't get one, get a rabbit or gerbil (or other such furry critter).


You wot? 

Some of that is really quite questionable. 

Royals are hardly a large snake!


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Lord Vetinari thanks for setting that straight for me : victory:


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## reptilefocus (May 30, 2013)

I was actually referencing the american term for a corn (ie a rat snake), so as to ensure readers had FULL information when they do their research.

Yes, all snakes can be temperamental but 'big' snakes (please note the use of inverted commas here - as in my original post) are known for potentially being fussier eaters and can throw newer owners into turmoil when they refuse food - something which reports suggest they do more often than your garter, corn etc. And although some colubrids can get to 9 foot, have you considered the weight of your average corn snake as compared to your average python? Think you'll find a bit of a difference, again which factors into ease of handling.

I can't help that you've not heard of any of these reports and experiences, sorry. All I can do is provide advice that I've heard and experienced first hand over the 20 years having lived in the countries reptiles (pythons included) inhabit. And of course, you are entitled to disagree with any of my comments, but I would encourage others readers to do a lot of reaserch from several different sources before making a decison one way or the other.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

reptilefocus said:


> I was actually referencing the american term for a corn (ie a rat snake), so as to ensure readers had FULL information when they do their research.
> 
> Yes, all snakes can be temperamental but 'big' snakes (please note the use of inverted commas here - as in my original post) are known for potentially being fussier eaters and can throw newer owners into turmoil when they refuse food - something which reports suggest they do more often than your garter, corn etc.
> 
> I can't help that you've not heard of any of these reports and experiences, sorry. All I can do is provide advice that I've heard and experienced first hand over the 20 years having lived in the countries reptiles (pythons included) inhabit. And of course, you are entitled to disagree with any of my comments, but I would encourage others readers to do a lot of reaserch from several different sources before making a decison one way or the other.


Thats the problem with common names - 'rat snake' is used to refer to a vast array of species. 'Corn' is more specific and in fact far more helpful... Still doesnt stop it being a rat snake though!

The term big snakes is used commonly to refer to the 'big five' of Retics, Burms, Anacondas (yellow and green) and Afrocks. None of which have a reputation as being fussy over food. 

Royals are on the smaller end of the python scale by quite some way. Even by weight when compared to a colubrid. Also important to factor in when considering handling is the activity level of the species once out and about... 

Even the larger species of Boas and pythons very rarely have a problem feeding. Royals being pretty much the exception from that rule. I remain convinced that the vast majority of posts regarding royals feeding habits stems from a lack of understanding of behavior. 

Likewise - I can't help that you've not heard of any of these reports and experiences.


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## bizzy (Sep 21, 2012)

If its a royal you want do the research and get one understand that they fast and that its normal!!I got a rat snake as my first snake and she is evil!!but I do love her she is also a monster @5 feet and she's only 13 months old!!very quick and a little nippy!my older royal is just simple!!!he's almost a year old and in a 3 foot Viv im really looking forward to his fasting this year (not)


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

I'm glad Lord Vetinari has set the record straight. Much as I love ratsnakes, they are almost always more likely to be temperamental than a Royal. I also find it difficult to think of Royals as large, but I suppose they are, compared to some snakes.

Contrary to popular belief, larger snakes are nearly always easier to handle than small ones, especially if you are inexperienced. My friend's son, who is 12, found baby corns a bit of a handful, as they are so wriggly, fast and unpredictable. My burm is the only one of my snakes that my wife (who's not keen on snakes) is comfortable with holding. Admittedly, a large angry snake is a different matter, but most of the larger snakes commonly kept are very docile.

The only reason I would recommend against anyone getting one of the larger species of snake (assuming they want one) is if they were physically unable to handle one, or if they didn't have the room.

By the way, I'm not biased - I've got a boa and a burm, as well as a Royal and some ratsnakes. I like all of them - they all have something about them that's interesting.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

I think I need to step away from the crack pipe. I'm sure I just read that somebody called a royal python a big snake.


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## reptilefocus (May 30, 2013)

No I'm afraid you didn't. You read that I called it a 'big' snake - note the inverted commas. This refers to the fact that, as a python, it belongs to the family of big snakes - as identified by LV above.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

reptilefocus said:


> if you are completely new to herpetology, I would advise against getting a big snake as a first reptile. I would recommend getting a smaller snake to start with, such as a corn, rat or garter snake. Big snakes can be temperamental, hard to feed and can require a LOT of room and attention and I would only recommend you get one once you are comfortable with the 'mechanics' of the husbandry of snake keeping.
> 
> From experience: far better getting bitten whilst feeding by a 4 corn snake than a 6 foot boa!


op says they want a royal. You mention big snakes without inverted commas. Only inverted commas were on 'mechanics'


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## reptilefocus (May 30, 2013)

Thank you for pointing out my typo, 'Meko'. 

I am unable to edit to incude the inverted commas but readers please note: they should be included.


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## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Be careful with those Royals - don't let them lie alongside you, sizing you up! :lol2:


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## bizzy (Sep 21, 2012)

Jeffers3 said:


> Be careful with those Royals - don't let them lie alongside you, sizing you up! :lol2:


 omg is that what my royal has been doing!!I just thought he liked cuddles!!:devil:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

reptilefocus said:


> Thank you for pointing out my typo, 'Meko'.
> 
> I am unable to edit to incude the inverted commas but readers please note: they should be included.


now I'm worried. my name is in inverted commas. ..... Does that mean I'm not actually me?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Jeffers3 said:


> Be careful with those Royals - don't let them lie alongside you, sizing you up! :lol2:


I'm screwed. both my dogs are lying next to me


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

reptilefocus said:


> No I'm afraid you didn't. You read that I called it a 'big' snake - note the inverted commas. This refers to the fact that, as a python, it belongs to the family of big snakes - as identified by LV above.


Inverted commas indicate a quote or a portion of speech.... Occasionally used to indicate sarcasm or the presence of a euphemism in colloquial speech. 

They belong to a family of big snakes. But they are not a big snake.


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok thanks guys what size viv should i get can i get a large one now that will last till its fully grown or do i have to buy small and upgrade as it grows as i know they get stressed in large spaces ?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Best bet is to get the full sized viv and a Really Useful Box for when it's young. Some people get away with a full sized viv straight away with lots of greenery and places to hide, but a lot of people find it easier to put them in RUB's when they're young.


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok thankyou do you have a link to one of those boxes and size recommendation also what do i use to heat it


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> Ok thankyou do you have a link to one of those boxes and size recommendation also what do i use to heat it


Google Really Useful Box (RUB) and 9L upwards are fine for young babies & heating will be with a stat controlled heat mat when in RUBs and once in vivs change the heating to a ceramic controlled by the appropriate stat.

I have my young female in a 9L at the moment but this is only a temp home, she'll be moved into the bigger one I have once she's had a few more feeds in her.


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks for all this help guys what size viv do you recommend i want one big egnough so i dont have to upgrade when its fully grown


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> Thanks for all this help guys what size viv do you recommend i want one big egnough so i dont have to upgrade when its fully grown


Royals reach about 4 to 5 foot in size once adult so I think a 3x2x2 foot viv will do just fine once adult or you could go 4x2x2 foot and just pack it out with plants, hides, branches for climbing etc etc, go by how your snake reacts is best I think.


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Thank you so much :2thumb:


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Would this be ok VivExotic Viva Terrestrial Vivarium Extra Large Beech 45" | Swell Reptiles


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

I have one similar to that for my year old royal. Packed out with greenery it's perfect. 

Three words to remember are cover,cover and cover. 

A young royal will need places to hide all over and lots of cover to slink under.


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## cjd12345 (Nov 2, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> Would this be ok VivExotic Viva Terrestrial Vivarium Extra Large Beech 45" | Swell Reptiles


It's a decent viv, I can't see a reason not to use a VivExotic Viva. 

You're getting some good advice already, some of it not so useful. Much as I dislike royals I've not heard anyone suggest that they aren't fine as a first snake. 

The whole big snake / little snake as some indication as to suitability as beginners snake is ridiculous. I keep "small snakes", six different species of garter snake, and I can also say that you can't generalise about even a genus of snakes - even within the species I keep most are great, but one species would drive a new keeper to despair with their long fasting spells and reclusive habits. 

Best advice is, choose what you like, research, read up, ask questions. Then buy the snake you want to keep rather than starting with one that doesn't really interest you which you will end up selling in a few years to move on to what you really want to keep.


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Yeah lots of great advice thanks guys what do i use as cover lots of fake plants and wood ? What would be a good substrate ?


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> Yeah lots of great advice thanks guys what do i use as cover lots of fake plants and wood ? What would be a good substrate ?


Yup! 

I use repti-card myself. I rate it highly!


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Any recommendation on a website where i can get that ?


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## cjd12345 (Nov 2, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> Yeah lots of great advice thanks guys what do i use as cover lots of fake plants and wood ? What would be a good substrate ?


Also, think about free stuff you can use. My garters love hiding in cardboard tubes, so toilet rolls (flatten them a bit or bend in the ends for smaller snakes) or kitchen roll tubes. Cardboard boxes and many food containers can make great hides too. I have a mix of purpose made hides and stuff improvised from the recycling box. 



fltltwood said:


> Any recommendation on a website where i can get that ?


ReptileBedding
Google is your friend. ;-) 

I'd recommend Repticard too.


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## ReptileGary83 (Jun 4, 2013)

Royals a good choice in my opinion got a few myself


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Thanks guys i really apriciate the help :notworthy:












.


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok i decided to get this VivExotic Viva Terrestrial Vivarium Small Oak 23" | Swell Reptiles instead of a rub what do i need for heating just a heat mat with thermostat or do i need a lamp too ?
Sorry for all the questions


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> Ok i decided to get this VivExotic Viva Terrestrial Vivarium Small Oak 23" | Swell Reptiles instead of a rub what do i need for heating just a heat mat with thermostat or do i need a lamp too ?
> Sorry for all the questions


I would go with a ceramic heat bulb (they don't give out light), dimmer stat and guard for that. No need for a mat as well. 

The benfit of the above despite the higher original layout is that all the kit can be transfered to the full size adult viv easily. A mat can be transfered but they aren't great for heavy bodied snakes as they grow.


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok great how do I fix one in would i have to cut a hole in the top or does it fit inside ?


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> Ok great how do I fix one in would i have to cut a hole in the top or does it fit inside ?


It fits inside - the vivexotics vivs have pre-cut holes for running cables through.

Edit: 

I would go for: 

http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/komodo-radiant-heat-lamp-100w.html

http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/prorep-universal-lampholder-mounting-bracket.html

http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/trixie-porcelain-bulb-holder-pro-socket.html

http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/habistat-dimming-thermostat-600w.html

http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/ceramic-heater-guard-white.html

I would also recomend this LED lighting: 

http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/white-python-led-modular-daylight-white-3ft-kit.html

reptile-ink on here also does LED lighting systems as well, I understand they are pretty good. 

That should cover everything - I would note though that items can be puchased cheaper than this from other places. But that is a list of all the electrical bits you will need!


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

That's great thanks for all ur help guys


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

fltltwood said:


> That's great thanks for all ur help guys


Although expensive, all that stuff will go into the larger viv as well and will do you for the life of the snake. 

(Barring the ceramic bulb, but I have had a few last years)


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## fltltwood (Jun 3, 2013)

I keep tropical fish i think its relatively good price compared to setting the up:2thumb:


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## BlondeCookie (Jan 2, 2013)

My first snake (and only  ) Is a royal. I love him to pieces and haven't looked back on getting him! I've had him since he was around 3 months old, he has never once struck at me, hissed or anything! He seems to enjoy being handled and never had a problem with him feeding!:2thumb: I have to say everyone who has met him, even some of my friends who don't like snakes have grown to like them as he is so docile. Even my mum who was terrified of snakes has now adopted him as her grand child 

I will say I'm not to keen on corns though :S I held my friends corn and I've never been so worried in my life, he was so fidgety and kept striking at me :whip:. Some corns I find arefine.. but they are really fidgety like people have mentioned whilst royals are more likely to curl up in a 'ball' or wrap around you arm or something.

For the vivarium make sure you have lots of cover! If your getting a ceramic, please and I beg you please make sure you use a guard! I read a thread on here the other day saying what happened to their royal even when using a heat guard! The royal climbed into the guard though a hole that the person had made to get the ceramic in (I think) and ended up being burnt, melted etc. The fire alarm went off at 6 in the morning. The poor little fella was found dead  So please don't try and save money by getting a cheap one or making your own. Spend the extra money to get a decent one!
Also for plants, try Dunelm mill website they have some nice artificial plants on there and some logs.

Also just because a snake is expensive doesn't mean you should get it! Or because it's a fancy morph. I had a budget of £200 for my first snake as I quite liked the look of some morphs. But I ended up falling in love with a normal! Which only cost me £55! Wouldn't change a thing though!
When you get your new addition to the family make sure you post pictures!


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