# Does anybody agree with me??



## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

Does anybody agree with me on this? Ive been looking through the DWA section for abit now just out of curiousity, and ive seen some ridiculous things, somebody with a ring tailed lemur baby, and people randomly posting that they want a tiger, are you having a laugh really, im not saying i disagree with it if your sensible, serious about it and dont just want an animal because its cool, have the money and the time, and not just a spoiled kid whos daddy bought them it because i have seen that 2, or if your possibly going to give something back to the species to help numbers. It just all seems abit daft to me, im not trying to cause an argument here it just really annoys me when people are stupid with stuff, personally i think animals like tigers and that should be left alone to the best zoos that can provide the best for them and concentrate on conservation, not just somebody keeping them in the back garden because they like it...., had to get that off my chest. What do you think? Dont post if your going to be all defensive about it and start arguing i just want to know what you think. X


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> Does anybody agree with me on this? Ive been looking through the DWA section for abit now just out of curiousity, and ive seen some ridiculous things, somebody with a ring tailed lemur baby, and people randomly posting that they want a tiger, are you having a laugh really, im not saying i disagree with it if your sensible, serious about it and dont just want an animal because its cool, have the money and the time, and not just a spoiled kid whos daddy bought them it because i have seen that 2, or if your possibly going to give something back to the species to help numbers. It just all seems abit daft to me, im not trying to cause an argument here it just really annoys me when people are stupid with stuff, personally i think animals like tigers and that should be left alone to the best zoos that can provide the best for them and concentrate on conservation, not just somebody keeping them in the back garden because they like it...., had to get that off my chest. What do you think? Dont post if your going to be all defensive about it and start arguing i just want to know what you think. X


The line between debate and argument is very blurred on RFUK.

Personally I think it's a bit nieve you think zoo's are suitable to look after some animals but private keepers can't. If someone has the time, space and money crack on I say, as long as they are not taking an endangered animal out the wild, and even then there are valid arguments for that.


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

I dont completely agree with the zoos, but they have tons of space and people and care for the animals if anything goes wrong, im not sure but im guessing private keepers have a hard time trying to find a vet that will happily come along and help them when the massive tiger they own is sick lol, there constantly expanding to provide the best. i just think alot of private keepers do it because they think its cool and they just want one, thats the feeling i got from here anyway seeing some of the posts. theres too many times i have seen that somebodys "pet" has managed to maul them or kill somebody down to peoples stupidity, then its automatically the animals fault, i just wish people would think twice about it really. X


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

No I'm pretty sure they use the same vets. Vets will take care of any animal as long as the bill gets paid. 

Private keepers mainly do it for the passion. Zoo's primary source of income is entertaining people remember. It is a way for people who love the animals to see them, those that are fortunate to be able to provide for animals they can own privately have that luxury year round. Of course there are exceptions but then remember zoo's are getting in trouble often due to inadequate care too.

I have to say I can't remember often seeing stories of people pets mauling them to death? Happy to take that back if you can provide some stories? Unless your talking about dogs, in which case yes that happens sometimes but still not often. I don't think when these things happen people blame the animal. When I was in India I got taken round a zoo which had many animals that had killed people. I was shown a leopard that had killed four people in a village yet they still captured it alive and let it live out it's days in a zoo.


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

i understand your point, i dont know what it is i just think its abit daft that people want to keep endangered animals for there own pleasure, zoos keep them to help keep them alive and help increase numbers, they open them to the public so people can learn to love and respect them, the income zoos earn is to pay for the animals and the staff that care for them, and to expand to provide more for them, i know unfortunatley some zoos do not provide that but hopefully they get sorted out . 

i have seen plenty of things about peoples pets killing them, something was on tv quite a while ago about some people keeping tigers, one day the big white male tiger they kept decided it wanted to maul one of them and killed her, of course the animal was shot after. Theres plenty of stories of how peoples huge snakes managed to somehow get out and strangle them. It annoys me when people decide to get something and suddely its not cute and small anymore its huge and they cant handle it anymore, what happens then, some people are heartless and just dump them somewhere. X


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I think people should be able to keep what they like providing they have the correct set ups and knowledge to back it up.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Also your first post could easily relate to any exotic animal well any animal in general really, the fact that its DWA is irrelevant.


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

i know it could but im only mentioning the DWA animals beause like i said i was having a look through the forum. i just dont agree on people keeping endagered animals for no good reason. X


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

why do you not?


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## The Roach Hut (Mar 29, 2008)

zoos sometimes dont have the knowledge, u have to remember at the end of the day they are a business too. however, saying that one person cant have a tiger cause they not a zoo is strange if they can provide the space and safety and help towards repopulating, have the experience knowledge then why not.


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

I dont agree with it because they are endangered, if your going to keep them then i think you should be keeping them to try to add to the species and keep them going rather then them dying out it the wild and just having them in collections and zoos, im not saying that you cant have one because you dont have a zoo, i just dont agree with people randomly deciding they want one for there viewing pleasure only with no intentions to add anything to the species. i just dont understand what some people are thinking, why did people suddenly decide that they could just go out and buy something like that just because they want one..., so you all think its completely fine to own something like that? X


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Like I said if they are poaching them out of the wild when the species is in a bad way, with no intention of breeding or studying the animal for the wider benefit _obviously_ that is not great.

Apart from that I don't know what you expect us to say? At the end of the day you came onto the DWA section of a reptile _keeping_ forum... there is a general trend in what people are into.

No we don't want to see endangered animals kept in a way that does not benefit them or the species but I see no problem in a private keeper having them if they can care fully for them and it does not damage the wild population. (and they have all the relevant permissions, paperwork etc) What's the problem with that?


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

I know like i said i was just curious to see what people owned, i didnt expect to see some of the things, i know its what people are into im not arguing or trying to offend people, its just my opinion. They are beautiful animals that need help, not just keeping for viewing pleasure, if somebody can provide all that for them then sure, but i cant change my views, i like seeing them in the natural habitat, not zoos or private collections. like i said its just my opinion, i guess i was just suprised at how nobody thought it was abit wrong. X


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Home | PETA.org.uk


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

Thanks , hopei didnt make anybody too angry lol. X


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

:lol2: no although it is a brave subject choice, I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions and others are going to think they are wrong thats the way of the world


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## john09 (Mar 31, 2009)

I havent read the previous posts as I dont have time, however with regards to the original post, I think your wrong. I know of several private keepers that keep their animals in enviroments, and have knowledge much better than most zoo's ive visited, and ive visted hundreds all over the world. With regards to big cats, again I think your wrong, If you have the knowledge, space , time and commitment to keeping a tiger or lion, or any animal for that matter, then there is no reason why you cant. The reason the DWAL is in place, is to ensure animals such as tigers are not kept irresponisbly, and their requirements are met.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

john09 said:


> I havent read the previous posts as I dont have time, however with regards to the original post, I think your wrong. I know of several private keepers that keep their animals in enviroments, and have knowledge much better than most zoo's ive visited, and ive visted hundreds all over the world. With regards to big cats, again I think your wrong, If you have the knowledge, space , time and commitment to keeping a tiger or lion, or any animal for that matter, then there is no reason why you cant. The reason the DWAL is in place, is to ensure animals such as tigers are not kept irresponisbly, and their requirements are met.


Should have read the previous posts and saved yourself writing the same thing out.


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

thanks, i thought somebody else might have put up a subject like this, i know each to there own, im pretty new to the forums i was expecting alot more arguing lol. X


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

The idea of a 'zoo' really started with private collections anyway. And it still happens today, private collections are opened up to the public. The line between private collection and zoo the two is pretty thin. The only distinction I can think of is one is open to the public. 

If the keeper can care for it propery and doesn't harm the wild population I really don't see s/he has an obligation to do do anything. If s/he wishes to then great, but I don't think they should be forced to as long as the above criteria is met. 

If you follow your argument through to its logical conclusion then the only animals that we as humans should be 'keeping' should be limited to domesticated animals, a much much shorter list then you might think.

Judging by your avatar you keep spiders, the reasons you keep spiders are exactly the same as some one has for keeping DWA or any other animal. With your argument you cant draw an arbitary line between spiders/any other non-domesticatd animal.


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

I think its quite different keeping spiders to keeping something alot bigger, the requirements are very different . X


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> I think its quite different keeping spiders to keeping something alot bigger, the requirements are very different . X


But if you have the means to do so....

It's hard to word this without sounding rude, and I don't want to come across like that but maybe think it through hard rather than thinking of a reply to back up the opinion you already hold... because it seems it is a bit of a confused one.


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## Ste123 (Apr 30, 2011)

Anyone know where I can buy a blue whale I'd love one in my pond


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Ste123 said:


> Anyone know where I can buy a blue whale I'd love one in my pond


Pets at home


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> I think its quite different keeping spiders to keeping something alot bigger, the requirements are very different . X


Owzy has already said it. If you can provide the requirements why shouldn't you keep what ever you want. 

As I said your argument doesn't let you draw an arbitrary line in the sand.


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## yuri (Feb 9, 2008)

I've seen zoo's keep animals in poor enclosures, I've yet to see a big cat in zoo captivity that I thought had adequate space


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

its not an argument,or a debate, its just my opinion and i was just asking yours, thats all . I just dont agree with keeping animals like that unless like ive said before your going to help towards the species. I know people wont understand how i can agree with keeping spiders but not tigers or other animals like that, but to me its completely different. X


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Then why post on a forum if you don't mean it to be discussed and debated?

Forums are not political sounding boards for soundbites. Something politicians have continually failed to grasp. (see multiple "mums-net" fiascos). They just don't work like that.

If it's on a forum it is by definition going to be debated and discussed.

If you want my soundbite then fine:

"No I don't agree."

(and your argument is illogical-which irritates me)


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

Because in my first post i said, dont post if your going to be defensive and argue, i just wanted see what other people thought. X


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## gav.b1984 (Aug 14, 2010)

*Another thread*

this is one of those threads,you start to read,wish you never and now have to read every reply!!

and having three african dwarf crocodiles and having seen some bad crocodile enclosures in the past,think i can say as a private keeper,my crocodiles are very well looked after and in the future hopefully i will add to the numbers in the u.k:2thumb:

If you have time,money,space,experience,licence etc then why not!!


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## L&M (Feb 8, 2011)

Do I agree with you......No not in any way shape or form. It seems pretty clear that there is no distinction (morally, and you are speaking about your moral beliefs) between keeping* any* animal in captivity. Animals in private collectons often become part of the family and live longer than there wild counterparts. 

As long as they have the space, food and enrichment they need to thrive it makes no difference whether they are in a zoo or a private collection. Only difference is in a private collection they are, in my opinion, less likely to be stressed by crowds.


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## gav.b1984 (Aug 14, 2010)

L&M said:


> Do I agree with you......No not in any way shape or form. It seems pretty clear that there is no distinction (morally, and you are speaking about your moral beliefs) between keeping* any* animal in captivity. Animals in private collectons often become part of the family and live longer than there wild counterparts.
> 
> As long as they have the space, food and enrichment they need to thrive it makes no difference whether they are in a zoo or a private collection. Only difference is in a private collection they are, in my opinion, less likely to be stressed by crowds.


:2thumb:


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> Because in my first post i said, dont post if your going to be defensive and argue, i just wanted see what other people thought. X


Well I have tried being nice but pleeeease... you are ridiculous.

Did you want people just to agree with you?

Wait I have just read the title properly... you did.

This is a democracy mate. Go to Peta and set up a table on the high street if you want to force your beliefs on people. 

We would understand if there was a tiny bit of logic in your belief but to call if confused is an understatement. Hypocrisy of the highest level is more like it.

PS. You are more than welcome to give it back to me. Beauty of a forum. I won't mind


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## Ste123 (Apr 30, 2011)

Owzy said:


> Pets at home




Cheers mate I give them a phone in the morning maybe they can deliver it, no need for me to go visit as I know what it will
Look like...


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## Spuddy (Aug 24, 2009)




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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

I personally do not see the problem in keeping dangerous or larger animals in private collection. And think about the DWA board for just one second. The people who formed the DWA list will have had extensive meetings to decide what should and shouldnt be on the list, they are not irresponsible people, and although I hate the word expert, you can guarantee that 'experts' would have contributed towards this list.

Imagine this, a chimpanzee (for example) is disgustingly mistreated in Spain and is drugged, made to walk around the areas of the resorts holding signs or anything equally degrading and disgusting. Now imagine if someone had the facilities and the knowledge to care for such a chimp, would you not agree with this simply because you do not like private collections? This is not just a black and white area, if you were able to put this rule into practice, where do you think this chimp would be? I dread to think to be honest. 

So essentially, I do not see the problem. If someone is able to provide the right care, facilities, and attention then why shouldnt someone be able to look after any animal of their choice? And you never know, someone with a private collection of a particular animal might see the animal and focus on it so much everyday, that they might learn something new and be able to provide new discoveries on the animal, and perhaps even provide help with conservation work.


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## retic lover (Sep 23, 2008)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> I know like i said i was just curious to see what people owned, i didnt expect to see some of the things, i know its what people are into im not arguing or trying to offend people, its just my opinion. They are beautiful animals that need help, not just keeping for viewing pleasure, if somebody can provide all that for them then sure, but i cant change my views, i like seeing them in the natural habitat, not zoos or private collections. like i said its just my opinion, i guess i was just suprised at how nobody thought it was abit wrong. X


Thats the thing though there's hardly any natural habitat left and if it wasnt for people keeping them they would become exctinct and I for one would'nt want that.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> i understand your point, i dont know what it is i just think its abit daft that people want to keep endangered animals for there own pleasure, *zoos keep them to help keep them alive and help increase numbers*, they open them to the public so people can learn to love and respect them, the income zoos earn is to pay for the animals and the staff that care for them, and to expand to provide more for them, i know unfortunatley some zoos do not provide that but hopefully they get sorted out .
> 
> i have seen plenty of things about peoples pets killing them, something was on tv quite a while ago about some people keeping tigers, one day the big white male tiger they kept decided it wanted to maul one of them and killed her, of course the animal was shot after. Theres plenty of stories of how peoples huge snakes managed to somehow get out and strangle them. It annoys me when people decide to get something and suddely its not cute and small anymore its huge and they cant handle it anymore, what happens then, some people are heartless and just dump them somewhere. X


Zoos are NOT there to protect aniamls and keep them alive, they are a source of entertainment and they make profit; they are a functioning business. Conservations protect endangered animals and try and breed them.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> I dont completely agree with the zoos, but they have tons of space and people and care for the animals if anything goes wrong, im not sure but* im guessing private keepers have a hard time trying to find a vet that will happily come along and help them *when the massive tiger they own is sick lol, there constantly expanding to provide the best. i just think alot of private keepers do it because they think its cool and they just want one, thats the feeling i got from here anyway seeing some of the posts. theres too many times i have seen that somebodys "pet" has managed to maul them or kill somebody down to peoples stupidity, then its automatically the animals fault, i just wish people would think twice about it really. X


Our exotics vet IS a zoo vet! All the expert medical help is out there for private keepers if they go looking for it (which isn't difficult). If a private keeper has an animal that requires veterinary assistance and that assistance is in the form of a zoo vet then guess what... Zoo vet it is!



Xx-lilith-xX said:


> i understand your point, i dont know what it is* i just think its abit daft that people want to keep endangered animals for there own pleasure, zoos keep them to help keep them alive and help increase numbers,* they open them to the public so people can learn to love and respect them, the income zoos earn is to pay for the animals and the staff that care for them, and to expand to provide more for them, i know unfortunatley some zoos do not provide that but hopefully they get sorted out .


So private keepers have no interest in keeping them alive or in breeding to increase the population? In my experience, private keepers are so thoroughly immersed in their hobby/passion that they are some of the most knowledgeable people out there. I don't understand for a second how opening to the public makes it ok to keep endangered animals? Sorry if I've misunderstood your posts but I'm struggling to work out quite how you have drawn these conclusions. Apologies that I don't agree with you but as this is a forum and you've posted a thread openly you'll have to put up my my opinion. 



SiUK said:


> I think people should be able to keep what they like providing they have the correct set ups and knowledge to back it up.


 This is practically word for word what I've always said. If you can provide for it properly and keep it healthy and happy then why shouldn't you keep it? Especially if one is looking to breed said animal!



retic lover said:


> Thats the thing though there's hardly any natural habitat left and if it wasnt for people keeping them they would become exctinct and I for one would'nt want that.


^^ and here is the most important point. By the OP's logic, no endangered or DWA animals should be kept anywhere but zoos. I don't think she has quite grasped that zoos are never going to have the space to sustain genetically viable populations of rare or dangerous animals of all those different species all on their own without private keepers also keeping too. 


Sorry OP but your views make no sense at all to me. I literally cannot grasp what you have a bee in your bonnet about. You are an exotic animal keeper too and assumedly you spend time looking after your spiders and keeping them healthy and 'happy'. Did you think that DWA or endangered animal keepers don't do the same for their charges? Or why you think they are so incapable of keeping their choice of animals? 

Obviously there have been and no doubt still are bad keepers out there but the vast majority are fantastically knowledgeable and very fastidious about the welfare of their creatures. 

You seem surprised that people are getting 'defensive' in their explanations and justifications of their hobby. 
What did you honestly expect people to do and say? You've come on a DWA forum, part of a pro-exotics keeping forum and thrown some high and mighty and totally unjustified view in peoples faces, effectively suggesting that people keeping DWA's or exotics are incapable. And you wonder why people aren't in agreement with you?

What did you expect people to say to you?


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> I think its quite different keeping spiders to keeping something alot bigger, the requirements are very different . X


Actually the requirements for keeping a small tarantuala are exactly the same as keeping a tiger or any other animal.

Why?

Because once you get past the specifics, the actual requirements are as follows: 

1) Provide adaquate and appropriate food
2) Provide an adaquate and appropriately sized enclosure
3) Provide a stable and stress free environment
4) The ability to provided medical treatment when it is needed

And thats pretty much it, those requirements apply to any animal in human care from a Chilean Rose to an Alpaca, from a blue whale to a pit viper. 

^^^^
That by the way is a logical argument. Just so you know.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Bexzini said:


> I personally do not see the problem in keeping dangerous or larger animals in private collection. And think about the DWA board for just one second. The people who formed the DWA list will have had extensive meetings to decide what should and shouldnt be on the list, they are not irresponsible people, and although I hate the word expert, you can guarantee that 'experts' would have contributed towards this list.
> 
> .


come up to the valleys and try telling my neighbours that :lol2:


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## Smigsy (Jul 30, 2009)

gav.b1984 said:


> this is one of those threads,you start to read,wish you never and now have to read every reply!!
> 
> and having three african dwarf crocodiles and having seen some bad crocodile enclosures in the past,think i can say as a private keeper,my crocodiles are very well looked after and* in the future hopefully i will add to the numbers in the u.k*:2thumb:
> 
> If you have time,money,space,experience,licence etc then why not!!


lol hope you for mean for captivity it's bad enough the amount of terrapins on the loose!


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Lilith, I noticed one more thing, you appear to keep a mexican red knee (b. smithi tarantula). Are you aware that this particular species is now protected by CITES as it an endangered species? The point I am trying to make is that you only only appear to agree in keeping certain species if you are going to "give something back to the species to help numbers". So tell me, are you going to be 'putting anything back' in (whatever this means exactly)? Not trying to start an argument just wondered how you derived at some of your theories without thinking about what you yourself keep


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## gav.b1984 (Aug 14, 2010)

:lol2:


Smigsy said:


> lol hope you for mean for captivity it's bad enough the amount of terrapins on the loose!


you may have given me a new idea,look well in my local pond!!couple of dwarf crocodiles on the bank:gasp:


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## retic lover (Sep 23, 2008)

Bexzini said:


> Lilith, I noticed one more thing, you appear to keep a mexican red knee (b. smithi tarantula). Are you aware that this particular species is now protected by CITES as it an endangered species? The point I am trying to make is that you only only appear to agree in keeping certain species if you are going to "give something back to the species to help numbers". So tell me, are you going to be 'putting anything back' in (whatever this means exactly)? Not trying to start an argument just wondered how you derived at some of your theories without thinking about what you yourself keep


Beat me to it :devil: lol :2thumb:


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> I dont agree with it because they are endangered, if your going to keep them then i think you should be keeping them to try to add to the species and keep them going


but then is it so wrong for a zoo to be able to sell a tiger cub to an experienced private individual with a suitable enclosure and licence? Otherwise just put the cub to sleep because they don't need it...that is what happens.

This article applies to a hippo, but it's true for any zoo population. If no zoo wants the offspring as their breeding programs are already full and no other establishment is interested..they're put down.

Swiss Zoo Has One Too Many Hippos, So Little Farasi May Have to Go - WSJ.com

surely it's better whether a tiger, hippo, lion etc, for it to have a life with a private owner who can care for it properly, then no life at all?


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## cobra759 (Feb 27, 2008)

There are some animals I'd prefer not to see in captivity at all, these are mainly the great apes and other highly intelligent species such as elephants. However these are my own personal opinions I have no right to enforce them on other people especially when I keep animals myself


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

retic lover said:


> Beat me to it :devil: lol :2thumb:


Haha I couldnt help it, I really hope the OP comes back and shares more of her views I am enjoying the slightly more intelligent debate than you usually get on RFUK :lol2:


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## MagicSqueak (Apr 9, 2010)

If you can keep it and keep it well then do it...as far as i'm concerned.

Something for you to think about though, very few reintroduction programmes actually result in success and many captive bred animals don't/wouldn't survive when released into the wild...so what's wrong with keeping them as pets? Surely it's better than the alternative?

I know people that keep ring taild lemurs and yes i'll say i'm jealous but they do a great job and from what i've seen the animals are fantastically kept and incredibly healthy and happy so where's the issue? These people have also bred slow loris...........when no zoo to the best of my knowledge have so to say they're better in zoos isn't always correct : victory:


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## retic lover (Sep 23, 2008)

Bexzini said:


> Haha I couldnt help it, I really hope the OP comes back and shares more of her views I am enjoying the slightly more intelligent debate than you usually get on RFUK :lol2:


:lol2: the OP seems to have vanished:whistling2:


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## Xx-lilith-xX (Sep 2, 2011)

Hey, sorry I've not looked at this for a bit, okay here goes. When I posted this I asked opinions none of you had to comment on mine at all so don't get all mad, everybody thinks differently, I cant help it how I think, I don't think I've said anything to offend anybody correct me if I'm wrong. Please stop posting what's the problem!! There isn't one.If you have the animals and you have the care needed for them then I don't have a problem I respect you for that, i just don't like the people who do it wrong, to whoever it was that said I was trying to push my beliefs onto others please don't be ridiculous, if I was doing that I would'nt have asked for opinions, to the person who said the Mexican red knee was classed as endangered yes I'm aware of that but from what I've read its only because they don't import them much anymore, there are plenty bred all the time, no I don't plan on breeding them yet as I've only been in the hobby 3 years I dont feel I have the confidence to attempt that yet but I will try eventually. So there it is Im sorry but I will never agree with seeing some animals in captivity. Thanks, try not to be too harsh with your replies lol. :2thumb: X


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## gav.b1984 (Aug 14, 2010)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> Hey, sorry I've not looked at this for a bit, okay here goes. When I posted this I asked opinions none of you had to comment on mine at all so don't get all mad, everybody thinks differently, I cant help it how I think, I don't think I've said anything to offend anybody correct me if I'm wrong. Please stop posting what's the problem!! There isn't one.If you have the animals and you have the care needed for them then I don't have a problem I respect you for that, i just don't like the people who do it wrong, to whoever it was that said I was trying to push my beliefs onto others please don't be ridiculous, if I was doing that I would'nt have asked for opinions, to the person who said the Mexican red knee was classed as endangered yes I'm aware of that but from what I've read its only because they don't import them much anymore, there are plenty bred all the time, no I don't plan on breeding them yet as I've only been in the hobby 3 years I dont feel I have the confidence to attempt that yet but I will try eventually. So there it is Im sorry but I will never agree with seeing some animals in captivity. Thanks, try not to be too harsh with your replies lol. :2thumb: X


thing this thread should end now,so boring but ive just got to read it:bash:


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## rehcsif (Dec 28, 2009)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> I dont agree with it because they are endangered, if your going to keep them then i think you should be keeping them to try to add to the species and keep them going rather then them dying out it the wild and just having them in collections and zoos, im not saying that you cant have one because you dont have a zoo, i just dont agree with people randomly deciding they want one for there viewing pleasure only with no intentions to add anything to the species. i just dont understand what some people are thinking, why did people suddenly decide that they could just go out and buy something like that just because they want one..., so you all think its completely fine to own something like that? X


What do you mean by endangered - and is that relevant?
Some examples (not DWA):

From what I can gather Everglades Ratsnakes are now rarely, if ever, found in their pure form in the wild, yet thousands are bred in captivity.

Bob Applegate states in his book that only around 30 Pueblan Milksnakes have ever been taken from the wild - again many thousands are bred in captivity.

Syrian Hamsters - EVERY Syrian hamster kept as a pet is descended from one pregnant wild caught female (I think one or two of these hamsters may have been found in the wild since then) - would you say hamsters are endangered??


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## Gaza Whitehouse (Dec 16, 2009)

rehcsif said:


> What do you mean by endangered - and is that relevant?
> Some examples (not DWA):
> 
> From what I can gather Everglades Ratsnakes are now rarely, if ever, found in their pure form in the wild, yet thousands are bred in captivity.
> ...


Add the Crested Gecko to that list as they was once thought to be extinct but now look how many there is in captivity.


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## [email protected] (Oct 27, 2008)

Personally i agree with him i think dwa should be band from the uk all together and the easy sale of non dwa reptiles should be closely monitored i currently have 5 rattlesnakes a black mam a cotton mouth and 2 copperheads and 3 caimans all of which i have took on to stop these poor reptiles from being destroyed because there are to many people out there with or without dwa papers that cant handle the of taking care of these animal thousands of dwa listed reptile are rescued or destroyed each year because people bite of more than they can chew wild animal are exactly that wild a croc does not belong in a pond in someone extention on the back of a 3 bed semi in kent i am sorry but i think there are to many idiots out there that get them because they think it is cool and as for big cats in the wild they have hundreds of miles to roam to hunt to have familys who in the uk can offer them that kind of life?


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Personally i agree with him i think dwa should be band from the uk all together and the easy sale of non dwa reptiles should be closely monitored i currently have 5 rattlesnakes a black mam a cotton mouth and 2 copperheads and 3 caimans all of which i have took on to stop these poor reptiles from being destroyed because there are to many people out there with or without dwa papers that cant handle the of taking care of these animal thousands of dwa listed reptile are rescued or destroyed each year because people bite of more than they can chew wild animal are exactly that wild a croc does not belong in a pond in someone extention on the back of a 3 bed semi in kent i am sorry but i think there are to many idiots out there that get them because they think it is cool and as for big cats in the wild they have hundreds of miles to roam to hunt to have familys who in the uk can offer them that kind of life?


But then again why would a big cat need hundreds of miles to roam in? It's because food isn't always on their door step. It's needed for survivial, but in captivity food is provided in front of them, the big cat no longer needs to scale vast distances. If you have the money and can afford to supply adequate housing i don't see the problem at all. 

What about your snakes? Do you keep them in a field acres big? No you don't, you give them adequate space! So don't come on here saying you can't keep crocs etc, if someone has the space for one, and is prepared to give it the correct care requirements there is no issue.

I would also like to see your Black Mamba along with the others you claim to be looking after...


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## ben_pries[email protected] (Oct 27, 2008)

now your stepping over the line questioning my credabity dont you think and this is a forum if i am correct i can come on here and say whatever i please and putting food infront of a tiger takes away the nature of the beast and who decides what is a correct amount of space for an animal like that ? if you want proof of my credibity i live in brentwood in essex you are welcome to come see for ya self anytime but then be prepared to come back on here and say ya sorry


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> now your stepping over the line questioning my credabity dont you think and this is a forum if i am correct i can come on here and say whatever i please and putting food infront of a tiger takes away the nature of the beast and who decides what is a correct amount of space for an animal like that ? if you want proof of my credibity i live in brentwood in essex you are welcome to come see for ya self anytime but then be prepared to come back on here and say ya sorry


I think any animal that is captive is pretty much taking away the nature of the beast, because it's not longer in captivity. Thus getting it's needs tended too. Nice of you to ignore the point made about the amount of space you give you retics. Yes you can come on here and say what you like, but it's an awful argument. 

It just sounds a bit skeptical that's all, how you just took a Black Mamba on like it's a corn snake. A lot of experianced guys on here don't even keep black mamba's. Simple pictures would suffice, but whatever, if you say you keep them you keep them, this is the internet afterall.


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## [email protected] (Oct 27, 2008)

i dont take on anything on like its a corn snake the black mam was dumped in a bag in a bin behind a hotel and a friend that works for the rspca asked if i would take it in i dont take any of my animals lightly and can i ask do you have any reptiles or mammals on the dwa list or any experiance at all or you just another person that has a voice on things he has no experiance and if you want a pic fine ill post one just for you but like ya said this is the internet so wont prove anything will it? and your right my retics dont have a jungle to roam in but also retics can be found in the wild in a hollowed out tree trunk most the time hardly the same thing as a tiger or lion is it


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> i dont take on anything on like its a corn snake the black mam was dumped in a bag in a bin behind a hotel and a friend that works for the rspca asked if i would take it in i dont take any of my animals lightly and can i ask do you have any reptiles or mammals on the dwa list or any experiance at all or you just another person that has a voice on things he has no experiance and if you want a pic fine ill post one just for you but like ya said this is the internet so wont prove anything will it? and your right my retics dont have a jungle to roam in but also retics can be found in the wild in a hollowed out tree trunk most the time hardly the same thing as a tiger or lion is it


Would be pretty easy, take a pic with a peice of paper with your username written on it. I'm not doubting it, it just seems weird seeing as you've never posted in the DWA section before. I don't have experiance yet, but i'm not giving out advice am i...

I'm sure retics don't live a tree their whole lives, i'm sure they cover large distances too. So before you criticise people online that keep Croc's on here, think about it because you're being a hypocrit. Just a thought.


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## ben_pr[email protected] (Oct 27, 2008)

i just noticed in your cool little drop down menus leos and a royal most people would class that as begginer experiance when it comes to looking after reptiles maybe you should up your level before questioning others mate


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> i just noticed in your cool little drop down menus leos and a royal most people would class that as begginer experiance when it comes to looking after reptiles maybe you should up your level before questioning others mate



Well maybe if you were such an 'expert' you should realise what you're actually saying is bullshi*. 

Would be nice to see pics of your DWA snakes though.


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## Razorscale (Feb 22, 2010)

nsn89 said:


> Well maybe if you were such an 'expert' you should realise what you're actually saying is bullshi*.
> 
> Would be nice to see pics of your DWA snakes though.


As much of a A-hole he seems to be from his posts (sorry) he is correct, as i have previously stated in another thread, i suggested you to get more experience with snakes before thinking of DWA, i dont care if its next year, its is still too soon i personally feel, it took me 10 years of experience with non-venomous reptiles before i got my first one, ive kept big snakes, mad snakes, husbandry specific snakes, and still done alot of practice and reading.
When i basically started i wanted to keep venomous too, but its not something you wake up in the morning and decide, or that you seen your friends collection and want to do the same. It takes time and effort, a hole year wont do sh*t for you, mite get you the hang of the ropes for keeping.
You can go and be a VL if you want, but remeber its the matter of life and death, it is not something to take lightly this hobbie.
And i really dont want to sound like a A-hole myself im all for people starting keeping, as its a great thing once you have the experience, you seem like a knowledgeable fella, but your doing a minty job on it, use your knowledge to help you further over the years.

Sorry if this post offends anyone, but i just feel i needed to say it. I dont like conflict over stupid topic's, i wish people would just use the brain in their skull.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> i dont take on anything on like its a corn snake the black mam was dumped in a bag in a bin behind a hotel and a friend that works for the rspca asked if i would take it in


Now I definatelly do not believe your claim, if that had happened we would all know about it, the DWA community is pretty small and it takes one thing to make the phones start ringing and word going round, in the UK we are a tight knit circle of keepers.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Razorscale said:


> As much of a A-hole he seems to be from his posts (sorry) he is correct, as i have previously stated in another thread, i suggested you to get more experience with snakes before thinking of DWA, i dont care if its next year, its is still too soon i personally feel, it took me 10 years of experience with non-venomous reptiles before i got my first one, ive kept big snakes, mad snakes, husbandry specific snakes, and still done alot of practice and reading.
> When i basically started i wanted to keep venomous too, but its not something you wake up in the morning and decide, or that you seen your friends collection and want to do the same. It takes time and effort, a hole year wont do sh*t for you, mite get you the hang of the ropes for keeping.
> You can go and be a VP if you want, but remeber its the matter of life and death, it is not something to take lightly this hobbie.
> 
> Sorry if this post offends anyone, but i just feel i needed to say it. I dont like conflict over stupid topic's, i wish people would just use the brain in their skull.


Well that's your personal opinion. If you read what i said on the other thread's i said next year, but if my mentor thinks i'm still not ready and it takes 5 years then fine. 

I didn't wake up in the morning and decide this, or seen my friends collection. 

I've got a brain thank you, and i'm able to use it too, if you wanted to say this you could have easily have pm'd me instead of hunting for likes.


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## Razorscale (Feb 22, 2010)

nsn89 said:


> Well that's your personal opinion. If you read what i said on the other thread's i said next year, but if my mentor thinks i'm still not ready and it takes 5 years then fine.
> 
> I didn't wake up in the morning and decide this, or seen my friends collection.
> 
> I've got a brain thank you, and i'm able to use it too, if you wanted to say this you could have easily have pm'd me instead of hunting for likes.


I couldnt care if i got like's for that post's i dont live on my ego, and as you said to me yourself, im on my own about my advice, IF i get likes that mean's im not on my own, but i know myself most of the good venomous keepers would agree with me that you dont jump into it.


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## [email protected] (Oct 27, 2008)

SiUK said:


> Now I definatelly do not believe your claim, if that had happened we would all know about it, the DWA community is pretty small and it takes one thing to make the phones start ringing and word going round, in the UK we are a tight knit circle of keepers.


tight knit ? really i know to dwa keepers thats it and one of them trained me this happened 4 years ago and you kinda making ya self out to be the king of the dwa no? you honestly telling me any thing that happens with a dwa reptile all keepers in the uk are made aware thats a load of bull and you no it i read about 20 more cases than i do get calls about on average over 40 reptiles are abandoned every month of those and 1 in 50 are dwa now your telling me you get a call about all those reptile is that what your saying really ? and as i said whoever is welcome to come to my house and see for them self address is middleton road,brentwood,essex its the big white house with the big yellow triangle on the gate telling you to enter at own risk


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> tight knit ? really i know to dwa keepers thats it and one of them trained me this happened 4 years ago and you kinda making ya self out to be the king of the dwa no? you honestly telling me any thing that happens with a dwa reptile all keepers in the uk are made aware thats a load of bull and you no it i read about 20 more cases than i do get calls about on average over 40 reptiles are abandoned every month of those and 1 in 50 are dwa now your telling me you get a call about all those reptile is that what your saying really ? and as i said whoever is welcome to come to my house and see for them self address is middleton road,brentwood,essex its the big white house with the big yellow triangle on the gate telling you to enter at own risk


I found it necessary to read your post four times to understand what you are trying to say!

I'm still not exactly sure but assume you are trying to tell us that there are a lot of abandoned/loose DWA species our there?

If that is the case I am sure that (as SiUK stated) the DWA community would be aware of this.

We don't know everything but to a certain extent we tend to know each other.

Perhaps you can substantiate your claims? I doubt it though!

I'm also confused about the address bit? What is that all about?


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## Podarcis (Mar 1, 2010)

Sorry. Posted, then read the thread from the beginning.


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## Southerncopperhead (Oct 5, 2011)

personally i think that serious people should be praised and spoilt people who people who want it because it's cool should be banned from keeping any dwa until they prove they are able and serious about what they are getting themselves into.

just my thoughts


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## SykeSnake (Aug 2, 2009)

I'd like a T-Rex if anyone has one, preferably for free ?


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

the ones who actually have a dwal are sensible, however a majority of the dwa posters do not in fact have any paper work and know nothing


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

spinnin_tom said:


> the ones who actually have a dwal are sensible, however a majority of the dwa posters do not in fact have any paper work and know nothing


Yeah but I think you will find these 'posters' aren't giving out advice. They are asking questions etc. It's no different to a newbie snake person going into the snake section and posting.


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## Southerncopperhead (Oct 5, 2011)

Also everyone's opinion differs so there no reason for you all to start conflicting over it.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Southerncopperhead said:


> Also everyone's opinion differs so there no reason for you all to start conflicting over it.


Just because people are discussing things doesn't mean it's a conflict.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

mstypical said:


> Zoos are NOT there to protect aniamls and keep them alive, they are a source of entertainment and they make profit; they are a functioning business. Conservations protect endangered animals and try and breed them.



Zoo's can only exist in this country if they have a written, formal, active and beneficial conservation policy (and an education policy and a research policy) so claiming they are 'just a source of entertainment' is a little misleading I'm afraid. The modern zoo in the UK is a conservation powerhouse, doing incredible amounts for the preservation and conservation of species and habitats around the world. This includes everything from educating and inspiring the public - with ambassador animals in their zoos - raising money on the gate to fund their upkeep, to primary research both in situ and ex situ. Keepers regularly go over seas to help out with conservation projects, curators and researchers travel all over the world saving species and hundreds of animals in zoos are part of internationally coordinated stud books.
Chester Zoo alone spends *£13 million* a year on charitable causes, most of which will be specific conservation projects (and that's out of a total income of £22 million, so it's not just a 'token gesture to please the antis') with the rest going on staff wages, animal food and upkeep.




[email protected] said:


> Personally i agree with him i think dwa should be band from the uk all together and the easy sale of non dwa reptiles should be closely monitored i currently have 5 rattlesnakes a black mam a cotton mouth and 2 copperheads and 3 caimans all of which i have took on to stop these poor reptiles from being destroyed because there are to many people out there with or without dwa papers that cant handle the of taking care of these animal thousands of dwa listed reptile are rescued or destroyed each year because people bite of more than they can chew wild animal are exactly that wild a croc does not belong in a pond in someone extention on the back of a 3 bed semi in kent i am sorry but i think there are to many idiots out there that get them because they think it is cool and as for big cats in the wild they have hundreds of miles to roam to hunt to have familys who in the uk can offer them that kind of life?


Thousands? Really? Could I ask where you got you figures from? Also, how come it's alright for YOU to keep them, but not others? Is it because you are a 'rescue'? I've often thought that terming yourself as a 'rescue' allows you to keep all the exotic animals you want, whilst at the same time cursing others for doing the same. This is particularly the case with some of the big cat rescue places in the states. There seems to be no distinction made by these places between *responsible* and *irresponsible* keeping.



[email protected] said:


> tight knit ? really i know to dwa keepers thats it and one of them trained me this happened 4 years ago and you kinda making ya self out to be the king of the dwa no? you honestly telling me any thing that happens with a dwa reptile all keepers in the uk are made aware thats a load of bull and you no it i read about 20 more cases than i do get calls about on average over 40 reptiles are abandoned every month of those and 1 in 50 are dwa now your telling me you get a call about all those reptile is that what your saying really ? and as i said whoever is welcome to come to my house and see for them self address is middleton road,brentwood,essex its the big white house with the big yellow triangle on the gate telling you to enter at own risk


40 a month = reptiles?
1 out of 50 = DWA?

Even if these figures are true (which I highly doubt) then that is only 10-12 DWA animals a year which is a little different to the 'thousands' you were talking about earlier?




I think I would also love to see a picture of your mamba. Why are these rattlesnakes, mamba etc not in your sig with your other animals? I'm not implying for a second that you don't own them, its a genuine question and I'm genuinely interested in seeing your mamba and rattlesnakes.

I don't however, agree with your figures.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

We all know how the RSPCA feel about the reptile hobby and we all know how dangerous it would be if there were escapee DWA turning up regularly, the regulations and restrictions would be carefully scrutinised if the press got hold of it then they would have a field day and you really think something like that would stay out of the news!!

I am sure Chris Newman would definitely know maybe we should ask him.

So I for one don’t believe what your saying, if its true and you are a DWA keeper then fair enough but I do not believe that the RSPCA found a polylepis and gave it to you.

Regardless of what you say it is a very small community and although not everyone knows every other keeper in the UK the network is such that everyone is pretty closely linked through friends or by acquaintance.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

SiUK said:


> We all know how the RSPCA feel about the reptile hobby and we all know how dangerous it would be if there were escapee DWA turning up regularly, the regulations and restrictions would be carefully scrutinised if the press got hold of it then they would have a field day and you really think something like that would stay out of the news!!
> 
> I am sure Chris Newman would definitely know maybe we should ask him.
> 
> ...


Could agree with you more I think that guy is another wannabe!

Unfortunately this forums seems to attract them more than others!


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

Xx-lilith-xX said:


> its not an argument,or a debate, its just my opinion and i was just asking yours, thats all . I just dont agree with keeping animals like that unless like ive said before your going to help towards the species. I know people wont understand how i can agree with keeping spiders but not tigers or other animals like that, but to me its completely different. X


You keep tarantula's right? Alot of which have been plucked from the wild right?


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## wiley198 (Jul 24, 2011)

I would not like to guess at the amount of endangered species that have been brought back from the brink by private keepers...


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## MattsZoo (Oct 27, 2011)

SykeSnake said:


> I'd like a T-Rex if anyone has one, preferably for free ?


Life Sized Tyrannosaurus Rex Dinosaur


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

MattsZoo said:


> Life Sized Tyrannosaurus Rex Dinosaur


Christmas list sorted!!!!!!


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