# Put an end to WC and CF Reps - yes or no



## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

There has been a lot on this site about the sickness and death of a large number of imported captive farmed animals. The question is should we buy cf or wc animals or not, does the reduced prices and new genetic possibilities justify the risks? So what do you think and why


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It's also great amounts of income for poor countries, livelihoods of farmers, hunters, trackers and their families in areas that there is very little in the way of good employment. It removes reptiles from areas in which they would be considered pests by overpopulation, would be killed, used for the skinning or food trade, or simply tossed aside as pests.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

theres too many variables for it to just be right or wrong I recon I voted right but really it should depend on the snake, enviroment,situation ect


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

They all came from the wild originally and some species are unobtainable as CB.

In an ideal world I'd say YES.

I'd like to see people stopping the wholesale import of animals like royals of which there are LOTS of people out there breeding them. But not for the likes of certain WC species which people need to start working with more to produce more CB sock, the likes of red-tailed racers for example.


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## RepMad189 (Feb 22, 2008)

I personally think that everything at one point obvs has to start as WC and aslong as proper quarantine, worming etc is done then fair enough. When it comes to WC/CF royals etc (the common breeds) i strongly disagree with it. If you want an animal save and get a CB. If you want it that bad the saving will be worth it. I was actually discussing this with a friend the other day and although there are a lot of people who do take proper precautions when bringing in WC/CF there are also people who see it as a cheaper quicker option and don't inforce quarantine etc... putting not only there collection but possibly other people collections at risk (through buying selling etc).

Basically some people see the pound signs and see it as a way to make a quick quid. There are people who are new to the hobby and unfortunitly don't take the time to learn the risks and the do's and don'ts of the reptile world. It's only a matter of time until someones collection is hit by something nasty.

Not looking for an arguement it's just how i feel about the subject and it's not something i would ever do. Would rather wait for the CB stuff to come along.

Lisa:whistling2:


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Ok this is a very touchy subject but i'll put my views across.

Importing WC and CF I do not see has a problem because it brings in new strains of blood lines and more possible genetic traits to expand even more morphs. But its not the case of should it be stopped its the case of the care and treatment that goes into the animals. 
The farmer collects these animals from the wild to send to the importer which there fore makes money for the farmer and his family. The importer then sells the CF/WC to other people which they then sell on at a later date. I see where you are coming from with the whole problems but if the importer and the sellers actually took time to rehabilitate the animals be it leopard geckos to royals and alot of others. 
The thing that gets me with it is when people want a quick turn over and don't put the animals first the importer imports the reptiles and sells straight away due to not having time and space to care equally for the reptiles therefore makes their lifes easier. But how ever that is not defending the importer because they are sending out possibley ill reptiles left untreated causes a dead reptile. It is a shame that the importer doesn't take time to care for the reptiles only a handful do.

But going onto the third person which would be the person the importer sold to. Say for instance it goes in 4 steps Farmer to the importer then importer to the retailer then the retailer to the customers. The retailer should look after the reptiles until they are fit and healthy. Say for instance a Retailer orders 100+ CF Royals from the importer then sells them straight away to make a quick buck then theres 100+ royals out there which haven't been treated and havent been given the time which they need Please bare in mind this goes on more than you think with other reptiles as well. 

So now a customer has bought a royal python from the retailer which hasn't been treated or been gave a second of the retailers time. This royal starts getting ill ( which is one downside but not because its WC or CF this is lack of care and husbandry from the retailer ) then we have a dead Royal on our hands and a very upset person.


So all in all its not bad to import reptiles WC or CF whats bad is the fact that the RETAILER doesn't give the animals the time they need just wanting to make a quick buck. So yes its good to bring in WC or CF if the people who import them and the retailers actually take their own time to make sure they are 100% fit and healthy to resell to the public market.

 

** Disclaimer **
This is not an attack to anyone just my opinions on importing WC and CF reptiles.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Ok this is a very touchy subject but i'll put my views across.
> 
> Importing WC and CF I do not see has a problem because it brings in new strains of blood lines and more possible genetic traits to expand even more morphs. But its not the case of should it be stopped its the case of the care and treatment that goes into the animals.
> The farmer collects these animals from the wild to send to the importer which there fore makes money for the farmer and his family. The importer then sells the CF/WC to other people which they then sell on at a later date. I see where you are coming from with the whole problems but if the importer and the sellers actually took time to rehabilitate the animals be it leopard geckos to royals and alot of others.
> ...


Why should it be the retailer that has to look after the reptiles, why not the importer?


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Fixx said:


> Why should it be the retailer that has to look after the reptiles, why not the importer?


The retailer should make sure that all animals are fit and healthy before sale therefore makes it the retailer who should do it. The importer brings in the reptiles for the retailers therefore the retailers purchase the reptiles from the importer. 

Fair enough the Importer should do it and i'd say only an handful do but they wholesale in large numbers therefore don't have the time to do so but when say a retailer only has 100 instead of the importer having 1000 the retailer only has a small number to sort out. Im not defending the importer it just seems more logical that the retailer who sells to the public should sort out the problems.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

I would very much doubt that the people sent out to catch WC receive much in the way of income compared to the final profit made on such animals.

CF is comparible to puppy farming, a few people make an awful lot of money regardless of the conditions the animals are kept in.

But, when there are people willing to buy CF there will be someone willing to get them regardless of the implications.

How come there's no quarentine laws for such snakes anyway?

Just my personal views:2thumb:


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## the-tick (Nov 27, 2006)

To be fair it's just like the grey imoprts market and cheap knock off's you can readily get these days.

Unfortunately we are all at some point guilty of getting stung by spending cheap and ending up with a dud. The major downside in the pet trade is that you'd expect some sort of ethics to apply, we (me n the missus) bought a kitten from a local pet shop that after several visits to the vets was diagnosed with fiv, we went back to the shop and we got the shrugged shoulders routine and we didn't have a leg to stand on, we foolishly expected the vendor to at least say sorry and let the rest of the people who's bought from that litter that their kittens probably had fiv.

CF and WC will happen for economic and gene pool reasons but I feel there should be a more traceable paper trail, hell if we can get that for the burgers we buy and eat why not the animals we have in our homes ?


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

andy007 said:


> I would very much doubt that the people sent out to catch WC receive much in the way of income compared to the final profit made on such animals.
> 
> CF is comparible to puppy farming, a few people make an awful lot of money regardless of the conditions the animals are kept in.
> 
> ...


What you think isn't alot of money to the farmers probably isn't but to the farmers its an awful lot of money.


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## herp mad (Jul 29, 2008)

their are enough animals being captive bred now so theirs no need to continuely take more out of the wild.


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## the-tick (Nov 27, 2006)

can a poll option of 

cf and wc should be more accountable but will continue anyway

be added ?


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

on a serious note, does anyone see the envriomental ethics of this situation? its good and all raising the points on animal welfare as importation is obviously a traumatic experiance when concerned with wc/cf , but what about wild populations? though collecting for the pet trade isnt the number one cause of extinction, in a world were rural and agricultural boundries are ever expanding, extra subjects being removed from the wild (with the biggest point being stressed on CF) doesnt help either. though certain populations may not be in the danger zone right now, with the growth rate of places like asia and africa these bread and butter species of the pet trade will sooner or later be in that danger zone.

taking limited quantities for strenthening captive gene pools i can accept but for the pet trade to sell wild caught in a manner were they rely upon it isnt good..

to shed a light on this topic that some may not consider valid, animal groups such as amphibians and the small house gecko species (i.e moorish,fan foot, anole green/brown) are another example. though the argument can be put across again that these species are abundant in their native countries in concern with small lizards, they are in the process of attempting to adapt to a domesticated enviroment that was once their home, and if they cant adapt then theres only extinction waiting for them.
with amphibians the situation is even more dire (though at the moment it may not seem so) as they are not easily bred in captivity (imagine breeding leopard geckos except the eggs need to be mainted in cycled water, the larvae then require very specific foods, and even then may not go on to metamorph succesfully). besides the dendrobate genus and a few of the better known tree/leaf frogs, the absolutely majority of amphibians within the pet trade are WC. i my self have WC amphibians in my collection, (though i am attempting to breed them).

the fact of the matter is, this hobby has advanced tremendously within the past 50 years, our knowledge though incomplete is vast, and we've uncoverd enough secrets to breeding the majority of the animals offered within the pet trade to not rely on WC/CF.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Diablo said:


> What you think isn't alot of money to the farmers probably isn't but to the farmers its an awful lot of money.


I was talking about the workers who are sent out by the boss man to collect WC:2thumb:


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

herp mad said:


> their are enough animals being captive bred now so theirs no need to continuely take more out of the wild.


Really?

2.0.0 Reticulated Pythons - Often WC, especially the specific localities, not many people breeding them - if there were a lot of breeders then there would be a serious risk of too many big snakes and not enough homes.
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor - Lots being cb
0.0.1 Bosc Monitor - Very few ever captive bred - only one or two recorded breedings. Whatever people say, 99.99% of these in captivity are farmed.
0.0.1 Blue Tongue Skink - More people breeding them, but still nowhere enough to supply demand. Most are wc or cf.
0.0.2 Chili Rose Tarantula - often cb, but if bought as an adult from a shop, then probably wc
0.1.0 Brazilian Black Tarantular - very rarely cb, only a handful of breedings. Unless bought as a baby from a breeder, almost certainly wc.
0.0.3 Emperor Scorpion - as for Brazilian Black.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

andy007 said:


> How come there's no quarentine laws for such snakes anyway?


They don't carry rabies or any human/commercially important diseases like bird flu.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

> I would very much doubt that the people sent out to catch WC receive much in the way of income compared to the final profit made on such animals.


In Ghana, the average YEARLY income is £170 that's just £14 a month - or a whopping 4pence a day. That's the average, that's not the people on the poverty line, the people starving. The average man in Ghana supports a wife and between 3 and 5 children on this wage!

I just thought I would add those for people who say the hunter/tracker/catcher earns almost nothing - if he even earns 4p for a days work he is considered average. That's the same as earning about £40-£50 for a days work here. 4p may not be much for us, but in Ghana, that supports a man, his wife, and up to 5 children from being on the very edge of poverty and starvation.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Fixx said:


> They don't carry rabies or any human/commercially important diseases like bird flu.


Cheers for that:2thumb:


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> on a serious note, does anyone see the envriomental ethics of this situation?


Most reptiles have laws protecting them in the wild and strict restrictions on how many can be taken in any one year. 
There also seasonal restrictions in some cases, to prevent gravid females being taken.


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## jonnydotcom (Sep 8, 2006)

I've just speed read through this and,
Yes i don't agree with the whole importing of WC or CF 
but if it wasn't for the WC side of it wouldn't most the snakes we all keep in this hobby be unavailable to use,
i agree with others that say there should be more checks put into place to stop mass imports of sick and dying Reptiles been brought into the country but a total ban would be a VERY big mistake in my eyes

(this is my comment and no harm was meant to others)


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

If every person along the line actually checked on and cared for the animal they would be a lot healthier and there would be less problems when they get to their new homes. This would cut profits and that at the end of the day, they do it for the profits. Others do it for fresh blood, gene's etc. These people are more likely to be able to give them the care they need to recover. If you get these snakes dirt cheap knowing they are straight of a shipment you can't complain later when it bites you in the butt. Unfortunately we are in a society that wants everything cheap or free. If no one bought them knowing they couldn't possibly have had proper care then it wouldn't happen. As long as there is a market for it, it will continue to happen. Sad thing is even after all the publicity it has had this year, people will still be swarming to get them straight off the boat next year because they are so cheap. Lots of CF come in each year that get the proper care and go on to have happy healthy lives. I think the the fact that the ones I think this poll is about, have been hanging around for a long time with out even food or water has made this batch so ill. So I have not voted on the poll as I don't think it just because they are CF that is the problem.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

there needed to purify blood lines.

farmers sometimes find hidden genes and import new morphs. for your pleasures.

your question should be

should wc's and cf's be sold to anyone but retailers who will quaranteen them to perfect health before selling to people who know nothing about them.

wc's and cf's are usually sold to retailers who know what there doing.
any problems with cf's/wc's is because your newbies.


cf's can be turned into the same condition as cb's.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Athravan said:


> In Ghana, the average YEARLY income is £170 that's just £14 a month - or a whopping 4pence a day. That's the average, that's not the people on the poverty line, the people starving. The average man in Ghana supports a wife and between 3 and 5 children on this wage!
> 
> I just thought I would add those for people who say the hunter/tracker/catcher earns almost nothing - if he even earns 4p for a days work he is considered average. That's the same as earning about £40-£50 for a days work here. 4p may not be much for us, but in Ghana, that supports a man, his wife, and up to 5 children from being on the very edge of poverty and starvation.


 
I said "I doubt very much". Didn't say they do earn almost nothing.:2thumb:

The point is, there are people making big profits and others just making a living. I dont know how much these workers get paid, and i doubt many people give it a thought nor care, when they hand over their cash to a supplier. 

Like i said this is just my personal view:2thumb:


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

fuzzielady said:


> If every person along the line actually checked on and cared for the animal they would be a lot healthier and there would be less problems when they get to their new homes. This would cut profits


As a retailer, I'd have to disagree with that bit. A healthy, well cared for reptile is far more profit than a dead one!
First, you get to sell it. 
It's worth more as a well settled, treated, quarantined animal. 
If it does well for the customer, you get a better reputation which is worth thousands more than replacing one reptile!

We're not all bad...!:2thumb:


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

fuzzielady said:


> If every person along the line actually checked on and cared for the animal they would be a lot healthier and there would be less problems when they get to their new homes. This would cut profits and that at the end of the day, they do it for the profits. Others do it for fresh blood, gene's etc. These people are more likely to be able to give them the care they need to recover. If you get these snakes dirt cheap knowing they are straight of a shipment you can't complain later when it bites you in the butt. Unfortunately we are in a society that wants everything cheap or free. If no one bought them knowing they couldn't possibly have had proper care then it wouldn't happen. As long as there is a market for it, it will continue to happen. Sad thing is even after all the publicity it has had this year, people will still be swarming to get them straight off the boat next year because they are so cheap. Lots of CF come in each year that get the proper care and go on to have happy healthy lives. I think the the fact that the ones I think this poll is about, have been hanging around for a long time with out even food or water has made this batch so ill. So I have not voted on the poll as I don't think it just because they are CF that is the problem.


 
This poll isnt about any specific animals - it is about the philosophy of importing cf or cw animals in general - I have held my own views on this subject for many years and they are not affected by the recent situations, although that has acted as a stimulus for the timing of the post.


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

Chiltern Reptiles said:


> Most reptiles have laws protecting them in the wild and strict restrictions on how many can be taken in any one year.
> There also seasonal restrictions in some cases, to prevent gravid females being taken.


these regulations and seasonal restrictions are obviously having no effect if the majority of animals in the pet trade are still WC/CF,

as mentioned previously, there are huge numbers of invertebrates also being collected from the wild each year as well, now alot of people will say 'urgh but there ugly and they bite' but at the end of the day they are a species on this earth and they have the right to be able to sustain a wild population. how ever, at this current moment the amount of inverts being taken from the wild will contribute to making many invert (and lets not forget the vital food chain) and reptile/mammal species endangerd.

there maybe restrictions but in my opinion, captive farming should be stopped full stop, CF denys a animal any chance of its offspring being able to grow to an age were it will be able to help contribute to a wild population. with CF all your doing is mass WC collecting, but with minimal effort, in effect you potentially remove an entire generation from the wild with captive farming.


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## hermanlover (Jul 8, 2007)

cant really give a straight answer for this, but personally i think it should be limited, as people have said, some snakes you simply cant get as CB, so WC or CF is the only option. were as you have snakes such as royals, which are breeding perfectly well in the wild, but people still feel the need to bring them over in the millions every year. i think its disgusting the conditions they are kept in until they are shipped over. so in a nut shell, no dont ban it, but more regulations wouldnt go a miss.


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Chiltern Reptiles said:


> As a retailer, I'd have to disagree with that bit. A healthy, well cared for reptile is far more profit than a dead one!
> First, you get to sell it.
> It's worth more as a well settled, treated, quarantined animal.
> If it does well for the customer, you get a better reputation which is worth thousands more than replacing one reptile!
> ...


 
I was meaning from way before they even came into this country. I know there are quite a few that import them, make sure they are ok and feeding etc and sell on :2thumb:


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

The restrictions don't mean that they can't take a lot of animals, but they do ensure that the wild population will not be threatened by over collecting. It is the collectors interest for there to be more to collect next year, and the year after etc. 
Take them all now, and you lose your livelihood.

Captive Farming isn't always a case of taking gravid females from the wild. I know of four farms in Africa that are just that - farms. Like we farm cows. 
Big massive pens, safe from predators and the babies are collected up. The adults can just get on with breeding undisturbed, and the babies are brought over here. Although having seen the animals from these farms you'd have no idea that they were cf, the quality is top notch.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

fuzzielady said:


> I was meaning from way before they even came into this country. I know there are quite a few that import them, make sure they are ok and feeding etc and sell on :2thumb:


Again though, a decent importer is aware that a live reptile is worth money. They often don't get paid for dead-on-arrival ones.
There are some good ones out there, they need supporting. The dodgy ones can rot in hell for all I care!


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

maybe complain about oils and ores and minerals.
animal populations can be managed but oils etc cant.

as you know some species are illegal to farm and wild catch. the reason you can wc and cf things like the ball pythons is because there not endangered yet.

your poll is worthless in that aspect. 

maybe you could work out what it really is your after? perhaps bad keepers? who lack husbandry of the harder to keep wc's and cf's?
even so, you should be able to buy healthy cf's and wc's from all good retailers
(if otherwise report the company to animal welfare).

this is how it should go.

*importer-*
*retailer* (they quaranteen them to health and pick out the better feeders etc)-
*public hands*


then there will be no problems with them.
(unless your adept with the perticular species and you can personally vett them)

any animal you purchase you should vet even if cb'd.


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

thats four farms in one very large country. the point is that with deforestation and rural expansion, natural habitats are becoming increasingly smaller and fragmented. then when you have the actual animals them selves being collected, well its all down hill pointing.

it makes me quite sad really, alot of people here appear to care about their animals, but only the ones in captivity, doesnt any one care about wild populations? so far the only points that have been put against WC/CF is that the animals arrive in poor condition, no body has said anything about endangering animals...

EDIT no matter what you say, animals in the wild breed only to sustain wild populations, they dont breed to accomodate the pet trade no matter how vain the market is. so as the end of the day its not good IMO.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> thats four farms in one very large country. the point is that with deforestation and rural expansion, natural habitats are becoming increasingly smaller and fragmented. then when you have the actual animals them selves being collected, well its all down hill pointing.
> 
> it makes me quite sad really, alot of people here appear to care about their animals, but only the ones in captivity, doesnt any one care about wild populations? so far the only points that have been put against WC/CF is that the animals arrive in poor condition, no body has said anything about endangering animals...
> 
> EDIT no matter what you say, animals in the wild breed only to sustain wild populations, they dont breed to accomodate the pet trade now matter how vain the market is. so as the end of the day its not good IMO.


you need to be asking more about human population. were the top of the food chain and the dominant specie and were technically pests.
if only there was something superior to us.
to stop us carrying on overpopulating.
find a way to decrease our numbers (wont happen because increased population scares other countrys from attacking) then nature can live in peace.
i dont mind if you invent some sort of human killing virus thats unstoppable


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

boidae, dont even get me started on that area of discussion, though if your up for a good debate theres always PM


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## the-tick (Nov 27, 2006)

boidae said:


> maybe complain about oils and ores and minerals.
> animal populations can be managed but oils etc cant.
> 
> as you know some species are illegal to farm and wild catch. the reason you can wc and cf things like the ball pythons is because there not endangered yet.
> ...


The poll is valid as it's asking peoples opinion on should it continue or not 

but to expand on your opening gambit there boidae what about the flea market? it hops all over the place and is cannot be managed as the unions have stepped in and banned the use of harnesses and matchbox usage, blame the cats and dogs I say.

See a useless post in regards to this particular thread


SNAP


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

lmao ...

EDIT and your signature is hilarious too.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> thats four farms in one very large country. the point is that with deforestation and rural expansion, natural habitats are becoming increasingly smaller and fragmented. then when you have the actual animals them selves being collected, well its all down hill pointing.


No it's not all downhill pointing. By encouraging *sustainable* harvesting of any wild animal you are helping to preserve natural habitats and giving the local people a chance to earn an income without degrading their environment. There was a very interesting article in Iguana (the IRCF's Journal) last year on sustainable harvesting of wild anaconda for their skins, in fact after controls were brought in on quotas and sizes of animals allowed to be taken surveys showed that the wild populations were actually doing better than before.

It's all very well the developed world telling the third and developing world that they should preserve their environments BUT we need to give them a reason to preserve their natural habitats and the only way to do that is to allow them to earn money from them.


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## the-tick (Nov 27, 2006)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> lmao ...
> 
> EDIT and your signature is hilarious too.


Bows, I thank you


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

fixx... its people like you that make the right comments but are still hated for being right... theres a very valid comment, and one i do consider sometimes, and to be honest i cant come up with an argument against that... (but that doesnt mean everyone can now start jumping on the fixx post band wagon)


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## the-tick (Nov 27, 2006)

Fixx said:


> No it's not all downhill pointing. By encouraging *sustainable* harvesting of any wild animal you are helping to preserve natural habitats and giving the local people a chance to earn an income without degrading their environment. There was a very interesting article in Iguana (the IRCF's Journal) last year on sustainable harvesting of wild anaconda for their skins, in fact after controls were brought in on quotas and sizes of animals allowed to be taken surveys showed that the wild populations were actually doing better than before.
> 
> It's all very well the developed world telling the third and developing world that they should preserve their environments BUT we need to give them a reason to preserve their natural habitats and the only way to do that is to allow them to earn money from them.


spot on there fixx, watching the valley of the jaguar was interesting to see they are doing this whole ecological survey to see if it's worth keeping the rainforest there or to start widespread forestation for profit.

For us it's a no brainer keep it, but that's easy for us for the Ghanains (hope I got that right) it's just about economy not ecology


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

the-tick said:


> The poll is valid as it's asking peoples opinion on should it continue or not
> 
> but to expand on your opening gambit there boidae what about the flea market? it hops all over the place and is cannot be managed as the unions have stepped in and banned the use of harnesses and matchbox usage, blame the cats and dogs I say.
> 
> ...


lmao


Thought I was on wrong thread there. Love your sig too


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

as in making forests? i guess thats always good as long as the forest being created are being created with trees native to the country.


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## the-tick (Nov 27, 2006)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> as in making forests? i guess thats always good as long as the forest being created are being created with trees native to the country.


no as in cutting it down, fascinating program but that's going off subject sorry


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

boidae said:


> there needed to purify blood lines.
> 
> farmers sometimes find hidden genes and import new morphs. for your pleasures.
> 
> ...


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

hmm... well im getting cynical now.. so ill end my par-take in this thread by saying, if a country wants to cut down its forest and poison its rivers with pesticides let them, let them let them let them and then at the end of the year when half the world is natureless, lets see how things go..

im reaching a point were i could introduce politics into this thread, and given the right circumstances (i.e a good old face to face discussion id be happy too, but over a computer screen it just doesnt have the same effect for me)

anyway, its eleven oclock and i really need a crap so im leaving the thread now, but just before i go completely cynical, i do hope some day that mankind and the world in general can live together in harmony, instead of the current parasite/victim role we have currently.

anyways, good night.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> hmm... well im getting cynical now.. so ill end my par-take in this thread by saying, if a country wants to cut down its forest and poison its rivers with pesticides let them, let them let them let them and then at the end of the year when half the world is natureless, lets see how things go..


That's the thing though, a lot of them don't want to trash their environments, they are just forced to by the IMF and massive debts to developed nations for selling them things they really didn't need in the first place


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

Fixx said:


> That's the thing though, a lot of them don't want to trash their environments, they are just forced to by the IMF and massive debts to developed nations for selling them things they really didn't need in the first place


 
Perhaps if some of the more obvious options (like wc or cf) were removed then more creative solutions to poverty and commerce could be found. Big game hunters devestated populations of big cats, gorillas etc until it was banned - the countries then discovered tourism in other forms, safaris, photo shoots etc. It is about choices - the obvious ones arent allways the right ones - just becuase you can do something, doesnt mean you should.

In my view the answer lies with the consumer not the supplier - stop using it and it will stop being produced. Keep up the demand and it will continue.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Spot on - its all about the consumer.

When the consumer says no - that is when the end of the cycle has been achieved.

We live in a fast paced commercial world - run by the consumer market.

Suppliers are always needed where there are consumers - whatever the product.

R


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Would the pro cf/wc argument about sustainable development and environmental conservation not fall flat on its face when you consider the amount of energy we use to keep the animals housing warm and well lit? What sort of carbon footprint does the industry leave?
I do understand the benefits locally to the communities in poor contries, but if you take a more global view how do things stand?


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/124553-wc-saga-whos-helping.html?highlight=saga


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## Kathryn666 (Dec 16, 2007)

My problem with the whole thing is the apparent fact that these animals have no basic welfare rights. If they were "farmed" and cared for properly before becoming a "pet" then maybe but as I have just discovered this is not the case. I don't even know how many die before they get here but I do know that they are "allowed" to die here by people who care nothing except for their profit margin. I would not (and did not) but a cf/wc animal knowingly.

How many emaciated royals are there in the uk at the minute looking like this one did?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Sooooo many quotes :lol2:



herp mad said:


> their are enough animals being captive bred now so theirs no need to continuely take more out of the wild.


Not only could i produce a list of animals that are in demand in the pet industry but are not available (unless you're special) and a list of animals available in the pet industry but not bred yet because we lack certain skills but i could also point out that certain animals are bred to a point where we would have had nasty inbreeding consequences without WC supplements. Not to mention the massively common leopard gecko, that is actually NOT a pure species in captivity due to the hybridisation of several species to produce certain colour morphs. Unless you buy WC you can NOT buy a pure leopard gecko anywhere in pet trade that i am aware of.




jesuslovestheladies said:


> the fact of the matter is, this hobby has advanced tremendously within the past 50 years, our knowledge though incomplete is vast, and we've uncoverd enough secrets to breeding the majority of the animals offered within the pet trade to not rely on WC/CF.


I think i covered most of that above. There is something else though, the fact that the hobby has increased at such a massive rate has meant the demand has increased at a MASSIVE rate. If you were to look at the reptile shops in this country you could probably safely say that 90% are new shops (5 years and under).



jonnydotcom said:


> there should be more checks put into place to stop mass imports of sick and dying Reptiles been brought into the country


Despite popular myth and rumours this is NOT the way things are generally done. Importers simply do not accept poor quality anymore. If it is sick and dying or dead it doesn't get paid for, end of conversation. For that reason it is not financially viable for exporters to send these animals in the first place. Let's not forget that the ONLY pictures you ever see are bad ones, usually done by those with an axe to grind. This is animal rights propoganda at its best and the majority of people here don't even realise it.



fuzzielady said:


> Unfortunately we are in a society that wants everything cheap or free.


One of the problems with this is the crowd it attracts. You get those people just out to make a few quid. It is these people that accept poor quality imports and sell them on. It is these people that have photos taken and end up with unhappy customers. This does drive them out of business but when one greedy git is gone another will fill his place. Until we as consumers start to think about longer term prospects and deal with more expensive importers who reliably produce the best quality they can then these people will continue to thrive.



jesuslovestheladies said:


> these regulations and seasonal restrictions are obviously having no effect if the majority of animals in the pet trade are still WC/CF,


You are so badly mistaken it is unreal. Yes, there is a LOT of WC and CF animals out there but the number is reducing exponentially on a yearly basis.



hermanlover said:


> you have snakes such as royals, which are breeding perfectly well in the wild, but people still feel the need to bring them over in the millions every year. i think its disgusting the conditions they are kept in until they are shipped over.


I've covered some of this above. Just to point out though, if we produced enough CB royals then we wouldn't import. We import normal royals every year in vast numbers from both the USA and Europe, we're talking in the region of thousands here. Yet the demand is still so great that we also import around 10,000 CF and 2,000 WC from Africa. With royals, the price isn't the problem (you can buy CB for under £10) it is purely the demand.



Chiltern Reptiles said:


> It is the collectors interest for there to be more to collect next year, and the year after etc.
> Take them all now, and you lose your livelihood.
> 
> Captive Farming isn't always a case of taking gravid females from the wild. I know of four farms in Africa that are just that - farms. Like we farm cows.


The number of these farms is increasing constantly as they are preferred by importers. We need to take a step back and realise what the animal rights propoganda machine is doing and look at the financial repercussions of what these people are suggesting actually are. At the end of the day the world revolves around money. No business model in the world will intentionally deplete stocks beyond repair.



Fixx said:


> It's all very well the developed world telling the third and developing world that they should preserve their environments BUT we need to give them a reason to preserve their natural habitats and the only way to do that is to allow them to earn money from them.


I agree. It's very easy to sit in our centrally heated, brick houses with electricity and constant water as and when we need it (hot or cold) and judge other people. Lets be honest though, these people don't have or understand what quality of life is, yet we complain when the electricity goes down for 20 minutes one day.



sharpstrain said:


> In my view the answer lies with the consumer not the supplier - stop using it and it will stop being produced. Keep up the demand and it will continue.





TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Spot on - its all about the consumer.


The problem is that the hobby is smack bang in the middle of a growth boom. The numbers of active people on this forum are an easy proof of this. We have so many members now that we just can't cope with what they want.
The real problems will come when we start to come down the other side. When we vastly over supply and are left with thousands of unwanted animals. 
The problems we have now are NOTHING compaired to what is coming.


----------



## Maddie (Aug 19, 2007)

Typically, I clicked the wrong one ;D

_Importing both CF and WC animals is wrong and should be stopped was supposed to get my vote _


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

my simple answer is ...

yes put an end to it the way it stands right now...

but its way more complex than that.. I dont have a basic factual stance on this.. nor political... mine as usual is emotive and psychological.. as without an understanding of why this trade exisits and what drives it.. theres no chance of change...

If it was done humanely.. with animal care being at the forefront.. careful and considered transporation.. etc.. then there MAY JUST be an arguement for it.. but its not is it?? so how can anyone argue FOR it when the animals suffer so greatly.. there is no revenue in PROPERLY cared for HUMANELY treated CF/WC animals... NADA>.



this is really down to something we can never put an end to.. human desire.. human wants.. human pshcology to have what we demand as our right... and basic greed.. we feel so superioir we cant bear to imagine maybe we dont deserve everyhting we want.. maybe coveting of animals is the one thing we REALLY need to address..

and i include myself in this make no mistake( allbeit i dont have cf/wc)



its our desires and wants we fuel here,.,.nothing else.. we feel we have a RIGHT to keep animals.. we dont.. we have an obligation to care for any captive animals we DO have.. why do we want more.. 

No really right now this minute ask yourself.. WHY do we want and need more CF/WC animals.. full stop??? 

the only true genuine human answer is a selfish self serving one..

WHY NOT


the arguement that the 3rd world NEEDS this economy in farmed animals is something to look at from a human rights point of view. if we did not have the economy set up in world politics the way it is poorer nations would have no need for these types of farming..
... its obvious these animals are not taken care of and when they do reach their destination for the seller and traders to make cash they CANT afford the revenue losses it would take to treat every single animal they import cf 

So these animals are left being cared for or euthanised by people who DO care.. and sold by peopel who dont have the time or money to treat them without making a loss on their import..

I am not sorry this debate has been opened.. but it wont stop the trade or human nature to want more and more and more.. I hope at some stage 

we laugh when we say OH I NEED ANOTHER SNAKE>.. OH IM ADDICTED.. I HAVE TO HAVE THAT NEXT NEW MORPH RIGHT NOW.. WHAT CAN I FIT IN MY EMPTY VIV

Maybe we need to take a damn good look at ourselves and our needful greedy natures..


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

sparkle said:


> my simple answer is: yes put an end to it, but its way more complex than that.
> 
> If it was done humanely, with animal care being at the forefront, careful and considered transporation etc. then there MAY JUST be an arguement for it, but its not is it?? so how can anyone argue FOR it when the animals suffer so greatly? There is no revenue in PROPERLY cared for HUMANELY treated CF/WC animals... NADA>. This is really down to something we can never put an end to, human desire, human wants and human pshcology to have what we demand as our right... and basic greed. We feel so superioir we cant bear to imagine maybe we dont deserve everyhting we want, maybe coveting of animals is the one thing we REALLY need to address and i include myself in this make no mistake (allbeit i dont have cf/wc) Its our desires and wants we fuel here, nothing else. we feel we have a RIGHT to keep animals.. we dont.. we have an obligation to care for any captive animals we DO have.why do we want more..
> 
> ...


Look I condensed your mad post!! And whats up with your grammer/typing? Its a hard read! LOL

You do go off on one, also I would seriously like you to stop encompassing everyone in your interpretation of the problem. Your psycho-analitic bulshit may ring true to you, but it is not gospel, which is how you portray it.

You can count SOME people and tar them with this righteous brush that you seem to be trying to paint the reptile world black with, but your posts try and include EVERYONE en mass. Speak for yourself, dont tie us all into the things that are wrong with the hobby.

If I applied your last post to myself, and most other people I know, it is highly presumptious and offensive.

Word.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Crownan said:


> If I applied your last post to myself, and most other people I know, it is highly presumptious and offensive.
> 
> Word.


:notworthy::notworthy:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Look I condensed your mad post!! And whats up with your grammer/typing? Its a hard read! LOL
> 
> You do go off on one, also I would seriously like you to stop encompassing everyone in your interpretation of the problem. Your psycho-analitic bulshit may ring true to you, but it is not gospel, which is how you portray it.
> 
> ...


I am dyslexic due to neuron damage i suffered whilst in a coma.. hence the issues with spelling and grammar.. so youve made a complete fool of yourself by being a total hypocrite here... but feel free to have the best laugh u can at somthing i have no control over ... what was your point in that.. this thread was meant to be about debate and viewpoints about CF and WC... i have mine and you have yours..

you have been offenisve or at least made a very vain and pathetic attempt to be... toward my spelling and grammar when you had NO idea why it was this way. luckily it takes more than that to bother me..
I am much better with spoken word than written.. and whilst you may find my comments offensive as far as im concerned i couldnt give a flying feck..
Do you think I need to make you feel comfortable with yourself.. ?? I am sure you can answer that for yourself..

I have as much right to my opinion as everyone else..if i chose to look at this from a viewpoint you do not find comfortable or agree with thats fine.. you can have your opinion without me feeling the need to damn you for it.. thats life.. we cant all agree.. 

Im glad you feel offended and riled.. it means my awful grammatical deadfully written post affected you..

YOUR REACTION to my post says way more about YOU than the person ( myself ) that posted it..

and anyone else it affects then franky i dont see me rushing to appologise.. im not here ot make u feel warm and comfy ...

the DEBATE about wild caught and captive farmed is NOT comfortable..

a debate is about viewpoints.. i aired mine.. i also can respect and read others without taking the piss out them for something they cannot do anything about ( my issues with spelling etc)... if u cant handle that then id suggest forum dynamics are something you need to avoid


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I actually totally agree with sparkle, boiling it down to the bare bones, if it was not for mans greed, mans egotistical wants, etc there would be no cf trade.

what is the reasoning behing all the CF royal imports for example ? why do so many thousands have to die just to fuel our lust for more for less ??



###And for those who feel the need to get personal and bitchy towards other members Infractions can and will be forthcomming.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I am dyslexic due to neuron damage i suffered whilst in a coma.. hence the issues with spelling and grammar.. so youve made a complete fool of yourself by being a total hypocrite here...
> 
> you have been offenisve or at least made a very vain and pathetic attempt to be... toward my spelling and grammar when you had NO idea why it was this way.
> I am much better with spoken word than written.. and whilst you may find my comments offensive as far as im concerned i couldnt give a flying feck..
> ...


 
Well Miss Overdramatic. 

Your post has not done anything at all in the issue that I have with it.

Firstly, how can I make myself look stupid by asking what was up with your grammer and stating its a hard read? Its a hard read-FACT. And how the feck did I know you have dislexia suffered due to blah blah blah? There is no attempt at offense other than me condensing it coz you so unecessarily space your crazy posts out. That is nothing to do with dislexia :roll:

You speak so much conveluted crap its unbelievable. What does making me feel comfortable have ANYTHING to do with what you said? I dont want to be tarred with the brush that you are tarnishing EVERY reptile keeper with? I therefore take offense that you suggest that I am like you interpret us all to be. My reaction to your post shows this and nothing else.

You have so seriously over-reacted that its managed to actually cover anything else within the post. And seeing as youve drawn 75% of your post from half a line of mine, you waffle. Condense and stop being so dramatic. :roll:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

wohic said:


> I actually totally agree with sparkle, boiling it down to the bare bones, if it was not for mans greed, mans egotistical wants, etc there would be no cf trade.
> 
> what is the reasoning behing all the CF royal imports for example ? why do so many thousands have to die just to fuel our lust for more for less ??
> 
> ...


 
crownman can u actually read what the moderators written or are u just blatantly flouting what wohic has asked


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

sparkle said:


> crownman can u actually read what the moderators written or are u just blatantly flouting what wohic has asked


 
Who made you:









In answer to you, I would never go against a mods wishes, but unfortunately I didnt ever see her post.

Boo hoo.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Crownan said:


> Well Miss Overdramatic.
> 
> Your post has not done anything at all in the issue that I have with it.
> 
> ...


and you stop picking Mr......... everyone is entitled to their opinion, some people have trouble taking wirds from their head and putting them down in a readable manor..... thats not a reason to jump on someone.
So sparkels post made you feel 'tared with the brush of the bad keeper'? try replying whith why you are better than that, come back with an argument for CF, or what ever, make this an interesting dicussion, not a mud slinging session (and that goes for you to ms sparkle)


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## monitor mad (Jun 16, 2008)

Far to much of a controversial subject to be decided by a "tick the box" poll , it needs to be debated properly both for and against the importation of w/c - c/f reptiles . . . . . . .


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

wohic said:


> and you stop picking Mr......... everyone is entitled to their opinion, some people have trouble taking wirds from their head and putting them down in a readable manor..... thats not a reason to jump on someone.
> So sparkels post made you feel 'tared with the brush of the bad keeper'? try replying whith why you are better than that, come back with an argument for CF, or what ever, make this an interesting dicussion, not a mud slinging session (and that goes for you to ms sparkle)


Hi Wohic,

IMO the reasons as to why Im better than that have no relevance to the thread. I just completely disagree with how Sparkle has covered everyone with the same layer of muck. Its such an over the top view on things. She's right about some people. But I believe its a small percentage, not the majority.

I cant say myself if I should be for or against it as I have not enough evidence either way and speculation can lead to more controversy (as we regularly see) and assumption is the mother of all **** ups (apparently)! lol

So I must sit on the fence for now.

And I have to say, I didnt 'jump on her' because her grammer is poor. I did it for the content of her post, and just made reference to it. I said nothing derogatory about it. But she took offence.

Peace out Homies. : victory:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Crownan said:


> Hi Wohic,
> 
> 
> 
> Peace out Homies. : victory:


 
I aint no Homie I is straight :bash:

















:lol2:


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Stop bad importers with no care of the animals-YES,stop total importation-NO.Sad fact is when animals have a worth to people in poorer countries,they are treated better,when they are worthless they are treated so.Tortoises used as hardcore for roads after export bans,cockatoos shot and poisoned in australia as they are "vermin" destroying crops,cane toads killed by the million,the list goes on and on.Good importers care about the animals they import-apart from anything else they represent money.The world needs to change as a whole,not just the reptile trade!


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## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

I've read next to nothing of the rest of this thread, as I know by now there will have been countless petty squabbles over things, and frankly I want nothing to do with it.

I have CF and WC animals, and I love them. I have CB animals, and I love them too. 
I know 99% of the argument against them is the ill health issues. My GTP is wild caught, she went to the shop in ideal condition, and over the 4-5 months I went into the shop, I watched her condition go down hill due to nothing but ill care from the shop itself! Now, months down the line, she is in perfect health, eats well, can be handled freely, and is all in all perfect (in my eyes anyway!)
I have 08CF royals, and each one is doing as well as any other 08CB in the collection, not a single one is sick, dead, or otherwise wrong. And before anyone asks, the cost of the CFs was actually almost identical to the CBs. This was because the CFs were chosen for their markings, each one is just a little bit weird, and I love them all for it. They would have been bought regardless of WC/CF/CB.

Truth be told, I dont see what the whole fuss is about, if you dont like CF snakes, dont buy them! If you dont approve of someone importing a WC snake, then dont buy it! If you want only CB in your collection, then fine, but dont moan when someone decides to do something different to you.
From day 1 I was amazed how varied people were when it came to their reptiles, how some people prefered corns over royals, retics over burms, vipers over cobras, and how everyone else respected those preferences. Yet it seems so many people can't respect anyones choice to buy CF or WC. If you dont like them, and choose to express this, then fine, but for gods sake, know when to shut up about it, all too often the second CF is mentioned on here, the same few people will immediatly jump on the "we hate CF" wagon, and tell the world why they dont like them, and then another group will do the "we love CFs" bit, and once again, another thread is ruined, when all that started it was someone asking for help with their non-feeding 08CF royal. No one would jump up and down if the title of a thread was "help, non-feeding CB royal" yet, believe it or not, just as many CBs are non-feeders as CFs.

So, no! Do not put a stop to CF or WC reptiles, put a stop to the same moaning groups who can't accept that in this day and age, we ALL have a choice to buy what we want! I have, do, and will continue to buy CF, WC and CB as and how I should see best.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

wohic said:


> I actually totally agree with sparkle, boiling it down to the bare bones, if it was not for mans greed, mans egotistical wants, etc there would be no cf trade.
> 
> what is the reasoning behing all the CF royal imports for example ? why do so many thousands have to die just to fuel our lust for more for less ??
> 
> ...


the reason there called royals here and not balls is there status as uk's best selling snake. the most sought after, being as its a small python with great temperament. (its a mini size burmese python).
natural selection is already there obviously, even without the trade tha many will likely die.
its not imports thats the problems is the hands they go into.


they should go into the hands of a descent retailer who can look after them, vet them and sell them as healthy as any cb before selling to something who lacks husbandry. 

thats how the death toll can be reduced.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Hi Wohic,
> 
> IMO the reasons as to why Im better than that have no relevance to the thread. I just completely disagree with how Sparkle has covered everyone with the same layer of muck. Its such an over the top view on things. She's right about some people. But I believe its a small percentage, not the majority.
> 
> ...


you called her dramatic etc.
you got personal with her not debateable or giving input.
thats jumping on her.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

wohic said:


> I actually totally agree with sparkle, boiling it down to the bare bones, if it was not for mans greed, mans egotistical wants, etc there would be no cf trade.
> 
> what is the reasoning behing all the CF royal imports for example ? why do so many thousands have to die just to fuel our lust for more for less ??
> 
> ...


Golly Julia, 

I seem to recall having a very similiar conversation with you about this sort of thing only yesterday, how spooky is that?

R


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

Rain said:


> I've read next to nothing of the rest of this thread, as I know by now there will have been countless petty squabbles over things, and frankly I want nothing to do with it.
> 
> I have CF and WC animals, and I love them. I have CB animals, and I love them too.
> I know 99% of the argument against them is the ill health issues. My GTP is wild caught, she went to the shop in ideal condition, and over the 4-5 months I went into the shop, I watched her condition go down hill due to nothing but ill care from the shop itself! Now, months down the line, she is in perfect health, eats well, can be handled freely, and is all in all perfect (in my eyes anyway!)
> ...



:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

p.s green tree pythons are now the most sought after snake in herpetolagy.
thats how the hobbys/pet keepings changed. more people are actually more professional with their animals than before. even though many people still think they can manage a gtp/etb, more go for them because they are advanced keepers.

so there has to be no decline in death tolls but an increase in them being alive.

----​ 
this is what should never happen, this whole story.
and its these cases that makes the cf's look bad, which it seems is why this thread was made.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/163969-please-help-urgent-problems-cf.html


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## thewifestolemyaccount (Mar 24, 2008)

wohic said:


> I actually totally agree with sparkle, boiling it down to the bare bones, if it was not for mans greed, mans egotistical wants, etc there would be no cf trade.
> 
> what is the reasoning behing all the CF royal imports for example ? why do so many thousands have to die just to fuel our lust for more for less ??


Well condensed and here here

P.S. I ended up having a GTP which was described as CB but now I find was WC/CF. never anything again not straight from the breeder. Stupid me but you live and learn


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

This threads been done a million times,always with the same arguements.But how many people actually have first hand experience of imported cf/wc reptiles? Im not talking about a few crappy cf royals that have been left without food at a bad shop.Things have progressed dramatically in recent years,i know of one UK supplier that actually own their own genuine Farm for breeding,producing many thousands of chameleons,monitors etc.Why is this so wrong? The whole debate is ruled by the heart about the "poor reptiles snatched from the wild",its far more complex in many cases,so the whole trade should not be dismissed by such emotional notions.


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## thewifestolemyaccount (Mar 24, 2008)

Berber King said:


> T Im not talking about a few crappy cf royals that have been left without food at a bad shop.


Nicely put. Wall-e


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

thewifestolemyaccount said:


> Nicely put. *Wall-e*


Am i reading that correctly?


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Im not going to drag myself down to your level with name calling pal.Just grow up.


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## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

well i voted for the last option because its important to be able to get the rarer species numbers up and so on but theirs not much need for importing common ones wc or cf ...thats just a way for people to make a quick buck imo


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Lets ban all WC and CF reptiles that way we can slowly watch the rarer species die out into extinction and watch all the royals that would of been imported into the UK etc be killed in their countries of origin as they have become a pest and worthless to the locals. :bash:

Or we could get sort out the situation with the imports we have now but have the emphasis on the animals wellbeing rather than on profits.: victory:


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Andy said:


> Lets ban all WC and CF reptiles that way we can slowly watch the rarer species die out into extinction and watch all the royals that would of been imported into the UK etc be killed in their countries of origin as they have become a pest and worthless to the locals. :bash:
> 
> Or we could get sort out the situation with the imports we have now but have the emphasis on the animals wellbeing rather than on profits.: victory:


:2thumb:
Anyone mention Crested Gecko yet.................


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

its about time Reptile imports were looked at more closely, perhaps we need a quarinteen ststem, that would certianly put a stop to cheaply available wild caught snakes and lizards that have a very poor chance of survival.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Berber King said:


> :2thumb:
> Anyone mention Crested Gecko yet.................


what about crested geckos ? wild ones are no longer imported.


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## thewifestolemyaccount (Mar 24, 2008)

wohic said:


> its about time Reptile imports were looked at more closely, perhaps we need a quarinteen ststem, that would certianly put a stop to cheaply available wild caught snakes and lizards that have a very poor chance of survival.


Only chance of anything working is a duty on each animal arriving. Then the rarer and/or breeding specimens will be worth enough to bring in but the run of the mill species won't be worth it


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Nickel mining, deforestation and natural and introduced predators are reducing wild crested geckos’ numbers and habitat. Yet at this time, _R. ciliatus_ and other _Rhacodactylus_ species are not considered endangered.
However, crested geckos have a promising future now that they are successfully being bred in captivity. Their endearing qualities make them a hobbyist favorite. This should ensure their longevity and safeguard them from extinction

Without wc,would this be the case?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Athravan said:


> It's also great amounts of income for poor countries, livelihoods of farmers, hunters, trackers and their families in areas that there is very little in the way of good employment. It removes reptiles from areas in which they would be considered pests by overpopulation, would be killed, used for the skinning or food trade, or simply tossed aside as pests.


 yes!...or here! here! as you guys would say...:no1::2thumb:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Rain said:


> I've read next to nothing of the rest of this thread, as I know by now there will have been countless petty squabbles over things, and frankly I want nothing to do with it.
> 
> I have CF and WC animals, and I love them. I have CB animals, and I love them too.
> I know 99% of the argument against them is the ill health issues. My GTP is wild caught, she went to the shop in ideal condition, and over the 4-5 months I went into the shop, I watched her condition go down hill due to nothing but ill care from the shop itself! Now, months down the line, she is in perfect health, eats well, can be handled freely, and is all in all perfect (in my eyes anyway!)
> ...


yes again!!...and a here! here!...tallyho and all that!.... wow! i'm on a roll!:blush::2thumb:


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

monitor mad said:


> Far to much of a controversial subject to be decided by a "tick the box" poll , it needs to be debated properly both for and against the importation of w/c - c/f reptiles . . . . . . .


 

But isnt the voting simply the opportunity to do so?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

boidae said:


> the reason there called royals here and not balls is there status as uk's best selling snake. the most sought after, being as its a small python with great temperament. (its a mini size burmese python).


You know this isn't correct right? 



boidae said:


> p.s green tree pythons are now the most sought after snake in herpetolagy.


On which planet? Definately not this one.



Berber King said:


> But how many people actually have first hand experience of imported cf/wc reptiles?


I do, but, because people are blinding by the propoganda that is spread no matter what i know as fact is all a lie. One of those times where you have to ask just how many people realise that they are affected by propoganda and negative PR? 



Andy said:


> Or we could get sort out the situation with the imports we have now but have the emphasis on the animals wellbeing rather than on profits.: victory:


I agree, sort of. The reason welfare improves is because more people realise that the proifts are higher with healthier animals. 



wohic said:


> its about time Reptile imports were looked at more closely, perhaps we need a quarinteen ststem, that would certianly put a stop to cheaply available wild caught snakes and lizards that have a very poor chance of survival.


I can think of only a handful of species that actually have a poor chance of survival after importing.



HABU said:


> yes again!!...and a here! here!...tallyho and all that!.... wow! i'm on a roll!:blush::2thumb:


Easy tiger :lol2:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

_In some respects l could agree with you Monitor Mad_

_'Far to much of a controversial subject to be decided by a "tick the box" poll , it needs to be debated properly both for and against the importation of w/c - c/f reptiles . . . . . . .'_

_But l also agree with Sharpstrain, because this in fact is discussing it in a debate format._

_The only thing l would add, is that l can not tick this poll, because l believe that whilst six options were offered, there could have been the options available to incorporate the introduction of supporting w/c or c/f with tighter legislation and political control. [and before being jumped on, l am not simply referring to CITES and the such like]_

_But l think that this is an interesting thread and as said is offering the options to those who purely wish to read, watch and observe as well as allowing others to comment._

_Yes, a properly laid out debate system for this would also work, but l have found in my experience of forums, that the moment you set aside an arena for such debate, they usually go elsewhere with their comments._

_R_


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

boidae said:


> p.s green tree pythons are now the most sought after snake in herpetolagy.
> thats how the hobbys/pet keepings changed. more people are actually more professional with their animals than before. even though many people still think they can manage a gtp/etb, more go for them because they are advanced keepers.
> 
> so there has to be no decline in death tolls but an increase in them being alive.
> ...


 
I really wish you would stop making assumption it only weakens your case - i have nothing to do with the thread you are talking about and my thread is about the philosophy of wc abd cf in general not about any specific situation. I am also trying to encourage debate without trying to impose my own views - although i do have them - i have read many of your posts and you just seem to come across as argumntative and rather than discuss the issue openly attaclk the reason for it - a shame i think because i am sure you have some valid views to express


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> _In some respects l could agree with you Monitor Mad_
> 
> _'Far to much of a controversial subject to be decided by a "tick the box" poll , it needs to be debated properly both for and against the importation of w/c - c/f reptiles . . . . . . .'_
> 
> ...


 
I realise the poll is restrictive - that is because it is about the situations that exist in reality - i really didnt want to do a wouldnt it be lovely if poll - but if you want to do - it would be great if there were better controls, etc etc etc but there isnt - i am not over interested in what might be, much prefer comment on what there is now


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i cut my teeth on wc's...they were all that you really had back in the '70's.... i still collect but rarely keep wc's.... to me, it's a price issue.... a cb often commands more than twice the price as a wc. personally, wc's have to be treated as such..... but there are no guarentees with cb animals... they just tend to do better on average. wc's should be acclimated and treated for bugs but a wc tests a keepers abilities far better than a cb in many cases. that's the challenge... most snakes are doing great in the wild..... yes, poor importers and retailers should be admonished but not someone wanting a specimen.... i'll take a wc boelen's anyday and take my chances rather than just looking at a pic here and there. some people think that snakes around the world are like the british herps... few and far between.... i'm overrun with snakes... they like our barns and disturbed land.... plenty of food... they are not almost gone...over collecting is a rarity... IMO...


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

Dan said:


> You know this isn't correct right?
> 
> 
> 
> On which planet? Definately not this one.


how about correcting it then?


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

its well and all saying that the crestys future is bright now their being captive bred but when something disappears in the wild, it disapeers full stop. take axolotls for instance, they are now a responsibilty of man kind, they dont really exist in the wild any more, and the only true populations that do are the ones we keep in tanks. they can not be reintroduced as the ecosystem which they come from either no longer exists, or the food chain has evolved to not accomdate the species any more.

again ill raise the point that i made last night, Nature produces only enough offspring to supply its native habitat, Nature doesnt think oh ill allow this gravid female doo hicky to be caught so its babies can introduced to the pet trade.

at the end of the day, CF has a negative impact on nature, yes the animal may be being wiped out and the only way it can survive is for it to be assimilated into captivity but thats it. once an animal is in captivity it doesnt go back. if the animal is being considerd a pest when it clearly isnt a 'pest' then that should be illegal if it isnt already. vermin i can understand,but animals becoming endangerd are not pests.

i my self have WC animals in my collection, but only because they are barely bred specifically in england (i keep fire salamanders and a few bufo toads, in germany i know they are bred quite often but thats germany and there quite hard to get hold of from there.)how ever, i have a passion for the natural interests of what i keep so i actively try to breed what i keep. i think if everyone tried to breed what they keep (talking about hobbyists here, not people with one off pets) then we would be able to improve the situation.

im feeling quite lonely in this thread, the only pro issues raised are that CF sustains certain countries economies andthe only negative issue that CF is cruel, does any body care about the envrioment? im not a tree hugging hippy but at the end of the day we've got one world and when its game over its game over...


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

boidae said:


> how about correcting it then?


Ok,

Ball python aka Royal Python - _Python regius_
The scientific name is where the common name of royal python came from.
I believe the reason it was called _P.regius_ - the patterns on the sides were said to resemble crowns.

Most in demand snake in the world, still the corn snake. Over 50,000 sold every year.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

Dan said:


> Ok,
> 
> Ball python aka Royal Python - _Python regius_
> The scientific name is where the common name of royal python came from.
> ...


heres another internet preaching about why its called royal.

Royal python, ball python.[2]
The name _ball python_ refers to the animal's tendency to cur
l into a ball when stressed or frightened.[7] 
The name _royal python_ (from the Latin "regius") is based in part on the story that Cleopatra supposedly wore the snake around her wrist.

they are not sought after in the slightest. they are cheap thats why they sell.
as i said gtp's are the most sought after snake in herpetoligy.


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

unless either of you have actual official statistics to back this argument can we get back on to the subject of debate?

and take a chill pill too.


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

none of the above. it should be ok if the point is to try to captive breed the species concerned - beacuse that after all reduces pressure on wild populations


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

thank you carpy, im not feeling lonely ne more


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

carpy said:


> none of the above. it should be ok if the point is to try to captive breed the species concerned - beacuse that after all reduces pressure on wild populations


 
Hi Alex

I agree with you - but that isnt the reality is it?


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

nothing is impossible... except becoming your own grandad..


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Not really answerable. It depends on who is doing it.


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

sharpstrain said:


> Hi Alex
> 
> I agree with you - but that isnt the reality is it?


no itas not but thats what i believe in. which is why im now trying to get hold of another imantodes - as unlikely as finding anothero ne is - im sure it would be well recieved!



jesuslovestheladies said:


> nothing is impossible... except becoming your own grandad..


:lol2:


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

The reason why CF/WC animals are poorer in general than CB is their health. If we could somehow get CF/WC animals in good health it would be good. Unortunately it seems that everyone who can make a buck does, and as a result the animals suffer.
Most people along the import trail accept losses as a normal part of the transaction, so it's the people at the end of the chains that lose out most.

But it's all a game. CF/WC animals are sold cheap. If they happen to be tough or if someone along the trail has taken time to get the animals healthy you might get a good bargain, but we have all heard the horror stories.

Of course there are other aguements that haven't been aired like the ecological impact, the impact on species numbers, the effect on local economics etc


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

carpy said:


> no itas not but thats what i believe in. which is why im now trying to get hold of another imantodes - as unlikely as finding anothero ne is - im sure it would be well recieved!
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2:


I know but u r i in a million and i guess its my fault for not taking you into account - the problem is not with csrefully and thoughtfully introducing a few examples of a little knwo species but rather the mass importation of something that is already readily available but at a slighlty more realistic price - my bad and i apologise


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## *H* (Jun 17, 2007)

I've selected it's ok and should continue.......... BUT i think it should be better regulated, i.e theres no point in bringing in CF/WC species that are regularly bred in captivity, and there should be guidelines which farmers/importers should follow, but I think in some instances CF and WC are needed for new bloodlines/preservation of the species etc.


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## kaimarion (Dec 31, 2007)

boidae said:


> heres another internet preaching about why its called royal.
> 
> Royal python, ball python.[2]
> The name _ball python_ refers to the animal's tendency to cur
> ...


 
That Ball python bit was copied straight out of wiki-pedia :whistling2:.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I am not against wc/cf as a whole, i am against the Royal trade as it stands, and the fact that you can look on trade lists and see lizards at 50p each and Royals at £4, you just know at those prices there is no incentive to care for these poor animals, if they cant fill their quota one month the box will wait in the corner of a warehouse until it is..... some animals could have been without water and food for many weeks by the time they are exported, then they end up in shops as cheap reptiles that tempt the inexperianced, who then buy an animal that has a parasite load, is stressed and possibly emaciated, it has little chance of long term survival.

the average joe sometimes get hold of these lists and see Royals for £5 each and think profit...... what they dont think is that they would have hatched april may time and have been hanging about for 6 weeks or so sometimes more, in boxes somewhere in the world, owned by people who wll get pence for them, so have no incentive to care for them. year in year out we get the same threads go up, the same crys for help frome the poor sods that have bought the late imports desperate for help for the snake that really has very little chance of survival. 
What we see here is the tip of the iceburg the internet reptile fraternaty is a very small percentage of UK reptiile keepers, so for each of the snakes reported as dieing via the forum there are most likely 100 more in private collections/ bought as first snakes/ in the back of reptile shops suffering the same fate.

something needs doing to protect them, and to be honest i think a fast death in their own country (if indeed they are killed as pests) is far kinder than the lingering death they suffer being imported.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

if they die of parasites here then wouldnt they die in the wild with them.
there usually imported before their first sheds. so food wise its not a problem untill sold.

they have an increased survival being in captivity rather than left in the wild.

as soon as you get a new animal, vet hem. what can go wrong?

ball pythons are born non feeders in the wild too.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

boidae said:


> if they die of parasites here then wouldnt they die in the wild with them.
> there usually imported before their first sheds. so food wise its not a problem untill sold.
> 
> they have an increased survival being in captivity rather than left in the wild.
> ...


 
I think a really interesting argument - but

In the wild they also woud not have to compete with the stress of poor captivity and shipment

they would not be kept in close proximity to thousands of other snakes increasing the spread of parasites and disease

would they ?


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

sharpstrain said:


> I think a really interesting argument - but
> 
> In the wild they also woud not have to compete with the stress of poor captivity and shipment
> 
> ...


 
there not actually kept in close proximity with other snakes unless the owner does so, that is inhumane if they do.

you being thought of as a predator by them would cause more stress handling them than them being put in blanked out boxes or bags for transport.

heat will cause bad health too in transit but well.. if the importer wants sales all he can do is get it right.

retailers quaranteen the animals not the importers. this saves time in importing them reducing stress further.


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

I haven't voted as none of the options really give my views.

I don't disagree with CF and WC reps persay, as there is a need in some cases for both, but I do disagree with them being in shops and classified ads for sale to the general public and new keepers.

IMO 

WC should only be imported to order i.e. someone needs new blood in their breeding then they would have them ordered and caught. The breeder knows what they are getting and will have the experience to cope with it, the animal is not sat around waiting for a buyer as it already has one.

CF I understand the ecological/economic benefits to the particular country that farms these animals, but what about our breeders in this country, who cannot compete with the low price of the cf ones. Well as the old saying goes "charity begins at home".


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

boidae said:


> if they die of parasites here then wouldnt they die in the wild with them.
> there usually imported before their first sheds. so food wise its not a problem untill sold.
> 
> they have an increased survival being in captivity rather than left in the wild.
> ...


 

when something is brought to a new country with that comes a whole host of new problems, bacteria, virus' parasites that are all forgien to them (have you heard the pocahontas story ? ) they have no natural immunity so this causes yey more problems to an already stressed snake 



boidae said:


> there not actually kept in close proximity with other snakes unless the owner does so, that is inhumane if they do.
> 
> you being thought of as a predator by them would cause more stress handling them than them being put in blanked out boxes or bags for transport.
> 
> ...


 
When they are collected up to be sold they are put in boxes/bags of many animals all cramped together passing on each others illness' they can stay like this for weeks before being unloaded


Quarinteen ....... mmmm so many retailers do not though, my argument is with the low end such as royals , certain geckos and lizards that are sold for just a few pounds in shops or to people wanting to make a few quid. I know for a fact the CF royals are bought paid for and sold on the same day by at least two members on here ..let alone the many dozen other traders on here.

I could go on for ever but while reptiles are seen as a disposable consumer item that cann be bought for a few pence and sold for a few pounds withing hours nothing will change.

Just one thing though ........... If importing is so safe, where are all the imports ?


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## Graz (Dec 7, 2006)

i think that some exceptions are ok, things such as royal pythons and other common reptiles shouldnt be imported as there is no need for them


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

The saddest thing about Royals is that they are touted as a good beginner snake.
But a wc/cf royal is anything but a good beginner snake. We could help by suggesting that ONLY cb royals are good beginner snakes, but unscrupulous people will just sell their wc/cf animals as cb.

A better thing would be for people to stop touting royals as beginner snakes altogether.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

all thats needed is for them go from impoter to retailer or breeder, they can quaranteen them and vet them to good captive bred style conditions ready for a beginner keepers.

thats really all thats needed to benifit both private buyer and animal.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

snickers said:


> The saddest thing about Royals is that they are touted as a good beginner snake.
> But a wc/cf royal is anything but a good beginner snake. We could help by suggesting that ONLY cb royals are good beginner snakes, but unscrupulous people will just sell their wc/cf animals as cb.
> 
> A better thing would be for people to stop touting royals as beginner snakes altogether.


 
thats the sad thing no CF/WC animal is a good beginner

I kept a few snakes and a few agamas whilst house sharing in england years back... we all got on fine and didnt have the internet to make us want more.. and lok for ways to get them cheaper etc,

i find people who arent on forums usually only have a few reptiles.. but for some reason forum dynamics cause people to want more and more...

and look for cheap ways of obtaining that.. there cant be amarket without a demand which is why earlier in this thread iw as trying to say we need to look at WHY we want cf/wc and maybe change ourselves first


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

boidae said:


> all thats needed is for them go from impoter to retailer or breeder, they can quaranteen them and vet them to good captive bred style conditions ready for a beginner keepers.
> 
> thats really all thats needed to benifit both private buyer and animal.


 
No they should then breed them and sell the captive bred babies to beginners


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

to be annoied about losing CF/WC royals is BS. anyone who knows reptiles knows the concequences that come along with WC/CF. End of discussion.changing it is a differnt matter.

back on to the thread..

sparkle i dont mean to side with the negative critisicim thats mounting up against you but your comments are also starting to annoy me now.

i myself enjoy animals, i dont enjoy keeping animals, to me that part is just mither, how ever what i do enjoy is the ease of access to be able to view an animal in a simulated naturalistic envrioment within my own home, and forums such as this one allow me to get hold of animals that many people consider minority species or 'specialist'.

ill be one of the few to admit that before i new the internet as such my standard of animal husbandry was quite crap, how ever, the ability to converse with other keepers and to use websites has broadend my knowledge of my animals natural habitats and allowed me to replicate that within the home vivaria.

and boidae, not to pick arguments with you as youve been posting some pretty good arguments on this thread but yes a royal has a better chance of survival in captivity than in the wild, but at the same time, it will also not have a chance of producing a new generation of its own for its native population, which is a bad effect.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

boidae said:


> if they die of parasites here then wouldnt they die in the wild with them.
> 
> Could I suggest please that you go and do some research re the above question. I will however help you here by adding that parasites need to get a strong hold in order for them to usually do damage to snakes in the wild. IE, An ill snake, or a stressed one due to maybe some form of injury that causes the natural body defenses to be lowered. That's when the parasites take advantage and slip through the ***** in the weakened wall. Other than that, usually parasites are not in large enough numbers to cause the damage that occurs with badly stressed imports.
> 
> ...


No, they are not. They start feeding from the moment they hatch, well most do anyway, if they came away from the egg with an absorbed yolk Sac anyway, and then when they have shed and feel ready they will go in search of their natural prey food, which we do not supply them with, which is what creates the problem, and it takes an experienced person usually to wean them over to a food source that we have available, that they don't recognize in the first instance.

Mo.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

An interesting debate

All Told Importing is wrong and should be stopped 53
All Told Importing is okay and should continue 48

Currently 53% of the readership believe that it should be stopped, with a remaining 48 [47%] believing it be okay and continue.

I think the figure work says quite a bit.

Personally, l think that if there were tighter regulations, stricter legislation and quarantine regulations in place it would be far better a system than now.

No, l am not a reptile importer, but l am a mammal importer, and we must jump through hoops and hurdles to ensure that the import/export is carried out properly.

In the UK for wild caught and captive farmed mamals we have a six month quarantine waiting - any problems and it will be found during the actual six month stint.

But also animals must be 100% before they are exported out.

I still find the opinions quite fascinating in this thread. Well done to the o/p for its creation.

R


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

_Importing both CF and WC is OK and should continue_







*44*42.31%


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

I think it is a good thing to import wild caught, an example of why i think it is a good thing would be the importing of uropltus species, as they are becomming extreamly rare and some of the species already are due to famers cutting down their habbitat and leaving them with nothing. People really do need to get these imported and breeding in captivity in the masses or we will be saying good bye to the most amazing species of gecko.


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> An interesting debate
> 
> All Told Importing is wrong and should be stopped 53
> All Told Importing is okay and should continue 48
> ...


believe me, there are many many hoops!


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## Prettyjoby (Aug 11, 2008)

I wasn't really sure what to vote as my point of view wasnt really expressed here.

Buying in WC snakes means breeders are able to find hidden genes and breed new morphs.

However: I see no reason, whatsoever for shops to be selling WC and CF animals to pet owners. I cant see, from personal experience why a potential owner would risk all that for getting a snake £20quid cheaper or something.

Theres a sense of immorality about it because basically 100s of poor little snakes die because of human greed every year. I believe the average person, keeping snakes as pets like me should be looking for captive breed animals. 

And the people who are taking WC and CF animals for breeding purposes need to look at how these poor animals are exported. It should not be allowed for the animals to suffer. Pay more if you have to, but don't have those dear little babies die just because you want a bargain. Get healthy, fed up snakes, tranported quickly and in the correct temps/conditions. There needs to be serious consideration over importing such snakes, just look at the horrific statistics seen in baby royals.


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

I absolutly disagree with CF or WC species that we already have an abundance of in captivity. 

WC and CF snakes should only be considered when there is a dwindling wild population and a REASON for them to be brought into captivity to be bred. 

It's not our problem or our job to keep poor farm workers in business by promoting the CF ball python/boa industry. 

As we have seen latley, mother nature tends to balance things out when they become too prolific. The market is SATURATED with royal pythons, it's ridiculous that people still import CF royals. If it's all about finding a potential new morph then shame on you.... Theres more than enough genetic gems in captivity and thousands of potential combinations to be made. Focus on what you have and not what you don't!

I also think that there should be more legislation and tighter quaranteen proceedures for whatever CF and WC snakes come into the country. Hell, even any CB specimens from the likes of the US should have a quaranteen period. Disease and illness is rife within the reptile community, and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. The most worrying thing about the likes of IBD and crypto is that snakes can carry these lethal bugs and nobody would ever know without them showing symptoms... I don't know why reptiles seem to be exempt from long quaranteen periods. It seems odd to me.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Prettyjoby said:


> And the people who are taking WC and CF animals for breeding purposes need to look at how these poor animals are exported.


Can you show me please, i'd be interested to see pictures of some shipments that have NOT been seized.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Montage_Morphs said:


> As we have seen latley, mother nature tends to balance things out when they become too prolific. The market is SATURATED with royal pythons, it's ridiculous that people still import CF royals.


Roughly speaking saturated means no more can be absorbed.
If you think that is the case with the hobby and royals then you are severely mistaken.


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Dan said:


> Roughly speaking saturated means no more can be absorbed.
> If you think that is the case with the hobby and royals then you are severely mistaken.


Alright smart arse, no need to nit pick. I was just using a suitable adjective to describe my thoughts on the amount of royals in captivity.

But if that is all you can pick apart from my post, then at least we agree with something!


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

regius are usually always rehomed if in good health, there not often euthanised due to lack of rehoming.
big boids are the oppasite.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Alright smart arse, no need to nit pick. I was just using a suitable adjective to describe my thoughts on the amount of royals in captivity.
> 
> But if that is all you can pick apart from my post, then at least we agree with something!


There is no point me commenting on your ignorance about it not being our problem is some farmers don't have work, nor is there any point commenting on your biased view of how imports are done. As for the quaranteen comment, i presumed you would know why this is really and just added it to fill out your post?


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Dan said:


> There is no point me commenting on your ignorance about it not being our problem is some farmers don't have work, nor is there any point commenting on your biased view of how imports are done. As for the quaranteen comment, i presumed you would know why this is really and just added it to fill out your post?


Appologies for not caring about these farmers... I don't particuarly want to support any industry which exploits animals for monetary reasons. 

I am utterly bias to my opinions, because they are MY opinions, formed on the basis of my own experiences having imported animals. 

My posts need no filling out, I think I can get my opinion across in a very small space of text. And this is I absolutly disagree with the captive farming of snakes we already have an abundance of in captivity.

If you feel the need to nit pick EVEN MORE (as you seem to have nothing better to do) please feel free to PM me as I will not indulge in your silly little tat for tat games on this thread any longer. They are highly unecessary.


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## Horny Toad (Sep 9, 2006)

Would love to be able to spend more time with this thread, but just havent got the the time, so busy at the moment. I would just like to point out that WC / CF reptiles are not the only ones that can suffer in captivity - there are thousands of unwanted CB reptiles that have had miserable lives too. Unfortunately human kind has many bad apples. Also, nowadays I get more worried about health related issues with CB animals, various viruses, Crypto etc etc are all CB issues, not WC, and are a massive problem that we should all be worried about. Generally speaking (apart from the odd isolated case of Crypto in the wild) you only need to deal with very easily treated health issues in WC - worms, protazoa etc etc. Im afraid that my herpetological pride cant fully grasp why people can be so anti with regards to WC and CF - just because their current captives were CB (but from WC ancestry) - I dont see this as a justification to denounce WC in captivity. Thiers wouldnt be here without this "disgusting" trade in the first place. And having first hand experience in the trade I can sleep easy knowing that my findings of this side of the business is little worse for suffering than other areas (ie CB trade). Twenty years ago, yeah, it needed cleaning up - nowadays lets get it fine tuned to continue improving - but I would say the same for all areas of the trade from breeders to importers to shops.


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## coolcroc (Jul 8, 2008)

Everyone here is missing one big point.... all of own animals were wild once!

I own 2 captive breeding farms in Africa, let me put a few things straight.

- I employ 10 people in both farms, I also look after their families by giving them all medical insurance and putting the young ones through school.

- All my staff get the training they need to do the job.

- My breeding policy is to release 20% of what we breed back into the wild, every year, I also work with the governments on conservation isusse such as tackling deforestation. This is the biggest problem that is wipping out some species.

In Tanzania we have more Chamealeo Tenue on the farm than what is in the wild because of deforestation!

I think some people should really open their eyes to what the real problems are that the natural herp world is faced with, however I do have to agree with the mass import of royals should be monitoredbetter and the anual quota should be lowered from 40,000 to 10,000, thats just the Ghanaian quota.

My farms mainly breed Chameleons and we are very sucessful.

Neil.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

coolcroc said:


> Everyone here is missing one big point.... all of own animals were wild once!
> 
> I own 2 captive breeding farms in Africa, let me put a few things straight.
> 
> ...





v-max said:


> Would love to be able to spend more time with this thread, but just havent got the the time, so busy at the moment. I would just like to point out that WC / CF reptiles are not the only ones that can suffer in captivity - there are thousands of unwanted CB reptiles that have had miserable lives too. Unfortunately human kind has many bad apples. Also, nowadays I get more worried about health related issues with CB animals, various viruses, Crypto etc etc are all CB issues, not WC, and are a massive problem that we should all be worried about. Generally speaking (apart from the odd isolated case of Crypto in the wild) you only need to deal with very easily treated health issues in WC - worms, protazoa etc etc. Im afraid that my herpetological pride cant fully grasp why people can be so anti with regards to WC and CF - just because their current captives were CB (but from WC ancestry) - I dont see this as a justification to denounce WC in captivity. Thiers wouldnt be here without this "disgusting" trade in the first place. And having first hand experience in the trade I can sleep easy knowing that my findings of this side of the business is little worse for suffering than other areas (ie CB trade). Twenty years ago, yeah, it needed cleaning up - nowadays lets get it fine tuned to continue improving - but I would say the same for all areas of the trade from breeders to importers to shops.


 


*APPLAUSE**


Nice to hear a voice of reason instead of SUPPOSEDLY PASSIONATE "HERPERS" denouncing things they have no idea about, not realising all they are doing is giving voice to out dated, unfounded opinions.

Perpetrating the message the antis want to give, what a brilliiant contribution to the reptile community.

Without CF and WC there woudl be NO HOBBY. Without current WC and CF the hobby will not develop. I wonder how many of the species these people love to keep have only been common in the hobby foir 15-20 years. With no WC and CF we will not have access to new species and bloodlines in the future.

All these new species becoming available to the hobbiest, and all becoming better understood for it.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Mason said:


> *APPLAUSE**
> 
> 
> Nice to hear a voice of reason instead of SUPPOSEDLY PASSIONATE "HERPERS" denouncing things they have no idea about, not realising all they are doing is giving voice to out dated, unfounded opinions.
> ...


 

..and coolcroc's call for the reduction of the export quota for royals, what is that based on? Empirical evidence of the unsustainability of this trade? I think not, in fact, I know not, because there is none; no-one has studied this.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Matt Harris said:


> ..and coolcroc's call for the reduction of the export quota for royals, what is that based on? Empirical evidence of the unsustainability of this trade? I think not, in fact, I know not, because there is none; no-one has studied this.


 
I also know a couple of farm owners working on release schemes. They have yearly release quotas to meet before they can even think of exporting an animal for sale. They also have to breed for x number of generations before thye are alowed to export at all. This essentially makes these animals captive bred, just in a farm in their country of origin instead of in my reptile room. Yes you have to take more precautions as a keepr regarding treating for paresites etc but to be perfectly honest I often find tis quicker, easier and less stressful to me and the snake than worrying about some of the problems animals can have coming from breeders and hobbiests.

We've ALL seen animals kept in worse conditions and states than they would ever see in the wild, give me a WC snake with a belly full of worms over a snake thats been kept poorly for years by some muppet in the past any day of the week. Brain damage, CAPTIVE only deseases and CAPTIVE ONLY problems like snake mites. Some reptiles change hands so often that it's impossible ot know their complete backgrounds. With WC and CF I have a fair idea of what to expect and what i'll have to deal with.

You are right, these opinions are outdated, incorrect and based on whistles and farts.


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

coolcroc, youve proved me wrong for one farm and im glad to hear it, especially bout the releasing 20% back into the wild, that means you assure that at least some make it to breed in future wild generations. anyway as ive said, no body seems to address the fact that with the major amount of deforestation coupled by WC/CF (except for coolcroc and similar minded importers) many species are going to (if their not already) start suffering badly. again with coolcrocs comment, the amount of royals should be brought down drastically, (and any other mainstream animal that is being succesfully bred in captivity) unless your a super duper breeder with literally thousands of breeding pairs, surely 4 WC/CF royals every year should be enough?

which makes me think that maybe this whole breeding thing should be given an official status? but thats a whole differnt area of discussion, WC/CF should be reduced in number and should not be used to fill in the blanks for 'pets' , the only reason i could justify WC/CF is to begin a breeding population of an animal, or to boost a captive gene pool, but lets face it, it doesnt take 40000 snakes to do that does it? and im speaking globaly here, every country involved in exotic herptoculture has a hand in this.


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## Horny Toad (Sep 9, 2006)

Mason said:


> Without CF and WC there woudl be NO HOBBY. Without current WC and CF the hobby will not develop. I wonder how many of the species these people love to keep have only been common in the hobby foir 15-20 years. With no WC and CF we will not have access to new species and bloodlines in the future.
> 
> All these new species becoming available to the hobbiest, and all becoming better understood for it.


Bearded dragons and Crested geckos are prime examples of species taken from the wild quite recently and are now bred in huge numbers in captivity. Corns and Royals have a slightly longer captive breeding history, but even so large scale production has only been for about the last 15 years or so. And then I cant resist mentioning that Royal production is centered on the colour morph side of the industry - very few CB "normal" Royals are produced, no where near the amount required and demanded by our hobby. People tend to forget that even the most humble of pets such as hamsters, gerbils and budgies all originated from WC. 

As for WC furthering the hobby - I've got to agree. We need as many species as possible into captivity so we can understand them better, breed them and in many cases provide a safe haven for them as human kind busily destroys the natural habitat. Many species are far better understood due to the keeping and studies of people just like us - and some of our resulting CB provide (sadly) for the last stand for the species.

Like many debates, its not as clear cut as it first sounds.


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