# Pro Keepers' Alliance - Update



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Pro Keepers’ Alliance update 

I have not written much of recent times within this section dedicated to the political issues surrounding the keepers passion. I took a break, whilst l suppose l did some soul searching, and looked for my path or the direction that l felt was the best one to follow. Recently keepers have asked why l am not writing here, and others have beckoned for me to continue.

Over the last few months l have spent more time outside of this section looking at husbandry issues. Pro Keepers’ Lobby is a title of the past, whilst the Alliance is something we prefer to promote now. No longer can l talk of the hard core politics that readers and writers here became familiar with me on. 

Last year, the readership here made it completely obvious that they did not wish to see hard core speculation writings – that they preferred only to deal with facts.

I too have changed, and it is not that l fail to believe my writings of now or yesteryear, for l know probably more than most of the readership here on the various consultations, and proposals and do know just how worrying the future of keeping animals is – or if all goes horribly wrong – or could be.

Is the fear of banning still out there? Yes it is.

I have recently changed my course, l prefer to now refer to the Anti’s or the opposition as ADG’s - Animal defender groups, for in many respects l too can see where they are coming from, and there are many already that write here that also feel the same way as indeed l do or indeed as the ADG’s do.

Many keepers as l have written before did not become involved in keeping animals for the legislation nor the political bearing, they got involved because they have/had an enthusiasm for that/those species. So little wonder that the response we got from our previous writings would receive more viewing than actual replies.

I have been very focused this year on primates and the code of practice, also of recent times, l am starting to look at exotic cats and of course skunks – and their respective codes.

Why, because these species are mammals and my field, and of course these three have had a lot of political viewing from powerful figures over the last five years.

Primates because they are classed as sensitive, and the ADG’s wanted to see them away from private ownership – to be more precise they wanted to see the definition classified properly. Are they a pet or an exotic species?

Primates are not playmates, so therefore are not pets, they are an exotic species to be maintained correctly, properly and responsibly, they are not to be abused in their husbandry. Nor neglected, they are an highly intelligent species, and as such require the keeping in captivity to be taken seriously by specialists, professionals and passionate keepers. Not to be kept in singles, in the lounge rooms of residencies up and down the UK.

I am not a primate keeper, and have no genuine wish to be a keeper – but l do want to see the species being kept properly.

The same applies to the other two focus species – exotic cats and skunks.

I have never owned exotic cats, although l have a client base that does, and in retrospect exotic cat keepers are fewer than that of primate keepers and much fewer than that of skunk keepers.

But they are – _despite some disbeliever’s viewed as political species_ – the same as reptiles are. And as such has been the focus of some tough consultations of late. 

We knew that if primary legislation failed to produce secondary legislation in support of certain species then those species could face an uncertain future. It was thought by many that if skunks were to have a piece of legislation passed on them, that less keepers would want to keep them, and in turn it would be a species that overall would fall by the wayside as an exotic species. To some extent this has worked, but to another it has failed, for although the preference is to own a descented skunk, there are still others whom are willing to own if not already do own an entire skunk/s.

This desire to own this species further encourages those who fight on the keepers behalf to go that little bit further and strive to achieve legislation supporting the keeping of both the entire and the descented animal.

We have an Animal Welfare Act and in the main, it is an excellent act, for it allows the freedom to be able to ensure that animals are kept properly and responsibly, by specialist and passionate keepers. All that is missing from the exotic side is/are the CoP’s.

If a primate code of practice failed to make an appearance, l don’t really think many reptile keepers understood/stand what this may mean for the future of keeping reptiles in the UK. It would mean in reality, that if primates were banned from private ownership as has been the fuel for many ADG’s , then as a highly political species it would mean an easy ride for the serious restrictions of certain reptiles to be kept in your futures.
However, the good news is this, that the primate code is now back in consultation, and this readers is truly good news, for it does mean that the energy and motivation that is required to look hopefully towards the future of keeping exotics in the United Kingdom can only now spell forward success.

It means that with this cop being properly reviewed, with a view to getting it published, is not only best for the animals and a safe guard towards keeping this species, but it means that all the exotics will at long last have their cops looked at properly, and finally addressed.

Hard core politics may not be your utmost concern, but what should be in your interest is seeing and wishing the primate code writers the best – for primates are the key to your futures as keepers.

Also, now is the time for you all to be seen to be actively asking – What of the reptile codes?

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers' Alliance


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

will reptile cops be done species by species?
regards gaz


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi Gaz, 

I am really quite unsure. But as an example:

The Primate Code is now being worked on again: There is to be a general guide, followed by a specific species guide - or care guide.

So if you keep Capuchins, you will have the general guide and then also a guide specific to keeping Capuchins.

With primates, there are in private hands some perhaps 6 main groups of keeping, so the general guide will have six sets or so of specific guide.

Now with reptiles, there l believe will be one main guide, with specific guides attached, but as to how they take that - l don't know.

R


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

sounds like there will be complications
regards gaz


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Yes Gaz, 

I think there will be complications with the reptile codes of practice - but the biggest complication to be had is this - when are they going to be looked into and reviewed with a bit more than a passing glance!?

If the work l am currently doing with the primate code is anything of an indicator, then l seriously dread how they are going to address the reptile cops, so that they can be seen and read by many as serious.

We live in a world where despite research being a required field of discussion for many of the species we maintain, many more truly believe that the learning curve is as disposable as some of the species others keep.

If l was to just quickly look at the 'hots' market alone, so many seemingly believe thay are experienced, when they have no more experience than l do, but are all too ready to scorn and criticise those whom are experienced and try to assist with the training of these animals.

Will the reptile codes address this all too important issue?

Will the codes demand that venom training and handling is to be seen as compulsory?

Just on that basis alone, how will the codes be written on those grounds?

Let alone what may be considered as a basic guideline to keeping?

The argument for habitats on reptiles is an all too long and tiresome argument already, and that is just the talk on the basic guides. So l seriously don't know when these will be started, but l think that in reality, the groups must start looking into it.

Complications Gaz, oh yes, l think they will be present.

R


----------



## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

hi there : victory:
reading through what you have posted today i can clearly see that there has been some serious soul searching going on, that kind of worries me.
what can change the way a person writes so radicaly?
the current legislation on animals will surely have to be completely overhauled if they are attempting to make to make some species illegal to own or will they just add them to say a register similer to that of the recognised DWA species. I fear i have been pretty much out of the loop on hearing what the opposers to reptile keeping have been saying, and have just heard a lot of fear about what has been going on.

I have to say that the RSPCA as one of those groups against the keeping of reptiles, doesnt really worry me, as their knowledge of reptiles as a whole seems very flawed and i feel that the experts will be able to "walk all over them" for want of a better expression, but what other oppostion are reptile and other exotic keepers up against. Who are we up against?

with thanks
Jen


----------



## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

in my opinion ourselves mainly


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

And that would be a truth statement.

In the end, it may not be the animal defender groups that crush us, but the industry, and by that l do not mean the retail side to things alone as many term retail, but keepers - with their demands as consumers, their notions on the way things should be addressed, and their ignorance at the way things are looked at or not.

The hobbies are all crushing themselves, simple as.

R


----------



## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

so how can we fight this? many exotic keepers just want to enjoy their hobby whilst providng good care for their animals....yes there are a few so called "enthusiasts" that are hell bent on owning a reptile for its sheer size or reptuation and really couldnt give a rats a:censor:e on wether that creature is being cared for properly.

Most real reptile enthusiasts and credible breeders are more than willing to share information and try to educate others who know little or who are showing an interest in this hobby.
Can we in some way gather together as a community and put the "cash hungry couldnt give a toss about our animals as long as we are making a profit" idiots out of business? would that not be a positive step for all exotic keepers out there?


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*'Can we in some way gather together as a community and put the "cash hungry couldnt give a toss about our animals as long as we are making a profit" idiots out of business? would that not be a positive step for all exotic keepers out there? '*

What you talk of is unification in many respects.

This has been tried on many occasions and fails miserably each and every time.

I find it staggeringly strange that this happens, but it does.

But in the same idea that you suggest you would also need identification and agreement and then enforcement.

*'Most real reptile enthusiasts and credible breeders are more than willing to share information and try to educate others who know little or who are showing an interest in this hobby'.*

True, but this little gem is too oft overlooked, and in the same breath, way too many 'sharers' are only too willing to share with a few and not the many.

*'So how can we fight this?'*

Ask continued questions and question everything! Research the problems underfoot and then seriously ask yourself/ves what can we really do?

But sadly we are drawn back to this:

*'.....many exotic keepers just want to enjoy their hobby whilst providng good care for their animals....'*

And this is the pit stop, politics, legislation is not what keepers want - they want to enjoy their animals - and it is because of this simple fact that way too many keepers do not want to get involved or fight it.

R


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Personally i think the "heads" of all these groups that are all for us fighting for our rights need their heads banging together.
They are acting like children refusing to join forces with other societys in the reptile comunity and its plain dumb!
If we stood together on things like this we would have more weigh with regard to having the cops done to actually reflect the reptile specifically writen by people that know love breath eat and work in the reptile industry. 

I have a lot of views on what could be done what should be done etc but its never going to happen. Not because of people not listening on the ground its because of the ammount of shouting that needs to be done to be heard at the top.


----------



## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Faith said:


> Personally i think the "heads" of all these groups that are all for us fighting for our rights need their heads banging together.
> They are acting like children refusing to join forces with other societys in the reptile comunity and its plain dumb!
> If we stood together on things like this we would have more weigh with regard to having the cops done to actually reflect the reptile specifically writen by people that know love breath eat and work in the reptile industry.
> 
> I have a lot of views on what could be done what should be done etc but its never going to happen. Not because of people not listening on the ground its because of the ammount of shouting that needs to be done to be heard at the top.


Hi all, Faith,

You have hit the nail on the head with your post, that is this country all over and related to many hobbies they will not work together for the good of the hobbies.

There is to much bickering and backstabbing in the rep world and no action and this puts people off, thats why they go off and look after their animals and don't get involved. 

I am afraid I am the latter, I just look after my snakes the best I can clean vivs good food and a proper rep vet if needed.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

slither61 said:


> Hi all, Faith,
> 
> You have hit the nail on the head with your post, that is this country all over and related to many hobbies they will not work together for the good of the hobbies.
> 
> ...


We kind of do the same because at the end of the day if the people that actually know what they are doing and make a job out of doing it cant be bothered to actually come to us and say "Look get of your backsides and rally with us, because if you dont then this is whats going to happen" its not going to happen because it will only be the reptile keepers standing up for our rights not the people who are actually employed by these societies, oh no they wont stand up and be counted or seen to make the first move at all.
I agree its OUR hobby but with out correct leadership from ONE society as a whole then we will always pull in different directions. 
Now if they showed some back bone and stood up and said "ok this is what the reptile keepers need, we will stand together as one" we may then actually sit up and take notice of what they say.
We never see these people actully doing anything for the hobby at all its all done behind closed doors. 
As for the societies if they cant follow their own rules how on earth do they expect other people to do it. 
Its beyond a joke..........
The british had a motto when we were fighting WW2 " United we stand, divided we fall"
Its a shame its the other way round now " Divided we stand, united we fall" not just with things like this either 
The uk need a cattle prod up their backside and i say we start with the govenment!


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

"many more truly believe that the learning curve is as disposable as some of the species others keep."

theres many out there who would'nt know a learning curve if they were pushed off the top of it:bash:
regards gaz


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Very True Gaz! Very true.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I think that all the codes that are to be written, should be written with input from keepers thinking objectively.

That each code should have balls, teeth and above all a legal standing, otherwise they will become mini handbooks for inexperienced and flippant exotics keepers.

The codes should reflect responsibility to the species being maintained and should take all avenues very seriously into consideration.

That if species have the rights to a standard way of living condition within zoo parks and institutions, then they should have the same living conditions applied to them in someones home.

To cease the constant attacks against the exotics community, we must make the stand talked of here in this thread and demand that the codes of practice are not just addressed but addressed properly and responsibly.

That if bad practices are present in the retail trade then these must be adhered to.

The codes l have seen have not particularily paid a great deal of attention to 'shops' selling exotics, especially on the primate front, and that if using primates as the example we wish to see a full stop to the pet monkey trade, then shops selling primates must either be stopped, or seriously regulated and if needs be enforced upon.

I hope that as some have written here about their concerns to the industry, that more keepers will learn to understand and respond to the calls for codes of practice when the time arrives.

R


----------

