# so called primate keepers



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

As per usual on this site there are members jumping on other peoples backs on how to keep there primates or should other people buy one,but really, do we know how these people keep there primates ,do they live in council flats in over size parrot cages with no sunlight.So why dont these people ,they know who they are, post pictures of there enclosures ,to show people how they keep them.If they dont post then we all know that they should shut up and crawl back in there hole ,because they have got all the talk but keep there primates in crap conditions


----------



## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

Anyone!


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

So why no replys ,you are quick enough to jump on subjects you know s..t about ,yet you cant reply ,because people on here are 2 faced and havent qot a clue on how to keep them


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Perhaps the keepers don't feel the need to justify thier housing to you Irwin?

Are you a primate keeper? Specialist? Enthusiast?


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

If they were proud of their enclosures they would post photos,or is it a case of people who have too much to say dont live by their own advice.We have all seen that before on here.


----------



## sudan_lover (Nov 14, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> Perhaps the keepers don't feel the need to justify thier housing to you Irwin?
> 
> Are you a primate keeper? Specialist? Enthusiast?


I agree with this, why should people have to justify the way they keep their animals? We don't need proof that they keep these animals the way they say they do. Alot of people on the forum are friends and perhaps have seen other peoples enclosures or set-ups for themselves.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

The recent discussion haven't been about housing and enclosures Irwin - they have stirred emotion in people due to babies being pulled for hand rearing and such.


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

Couldn't agree more britt. Irwin, this seems quite an agressive thread can I ask what you gripe is? As you have started a couple o threads now about primates.


----------



## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)




----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

I mean these recent threads seem a bit strange considering you have had previous threads selling primates yourself and one thread inpatticular where you seem all for private keepers stating "why why why" shouldn't people be able to keep primates privately.


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

I have no gripe about people keeping primates if it is done properley

Alot of people on here jump on other peoples back ,when they are no better themselves

Didnt you buy a baby marmoset matt ,at a very young age ,that was taken from its mother unweaned ,so you contridict everything you say ,i bet you keep it in the house .in a parrot cage/room ,so is this is really natural behaviour

Other people on here aswell keep them in over size parrot cages in the house ,with no natural sunlight and think it is ok and then if somebody asks where to buy one they jump on there back ,this site is full of people who think they know best but really dont have a clue

If anyone has a problem with posting there enclosures then they keep them in the house or in crap conditions


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

I'm still none the wiser really to the reason for the thread.
Yes I did buy a baby marmoset. It was fully weaned at 8/9 weeks old. She was hand reared as she was a triplet. It was not my wish/ requirement for her to hand reared as is being done from the posts on the other thread.


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

can you not read ,post a picture of your enclosure ,oh yeh its a parrot cage ,see people like you have all the talk ,dont know what you are on about and you are the reason primate keepers get a bad name.

A marmoset is not fully weaned at 8 weeks old ,it would still be on its mothers back ,and if you are so against handrearing why not wait for one of its siblings.I will tell you why because you think you can get a baby marmoset ,have it living in the house ,run around the living room,what a great life for a marmie.

still theres a lot of people like you on this site ,havent a clue what you are talking about ,keep marmies how they shouldnt be kept ,then wonder why people hate primate keepers


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

Personally if I was you I wouldn't be throwing accusations around that you know nothing about!! "As per usual on this site"!! 

So to cut a long story short ......the end I am not going to bother with this thread anymore!! Who do you think you are that you feel people should be justifying themselves to you?! It's a joke!!


----------



## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

irwin said:


> can you not read ,post a picture of your enclosure ,oh yeh its a parrot cage ,see people like you have all the talk ,dont know what you are on about and you are the reason primate keepers get a bad name.
> 
> A marmoset is not fully weaned at 8 weeks old ,it would still be on its mothers back ,and if you are so against handrearing why not wait for one of its siblings.I will tell you why because you think you can get a baby marmoset ,have it living in the house ,run around the living room,what a great life for a marmie.
> 
> still theres a lot of people like you on this site ,havent a clue what you are talking about ,keep marmies how they shouldnt be kept ,then wonder why people hate primate keepers


You keep harping on about parrot cages, why? Is that how you keep yours? Come on post a pic of your cage. Put up or STFU


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

Why because they are correct ,it says it all in your posts about your unweaned marmie 

Still you keep your marmie in unnatural conditions the same as most people on here


----------



## bumbleyjoe (Feb 5, 2010)

Wow im regretting venturing out of the lizard section now. This seems very unnessasraly agressive. But i do know that if a marmie has triplets then the smallest rarely survives so the fact that they are being hand reared isnt a problem. And have you ever thought that maybe the people who hand rear them do it because they are triplets or twins etc? Or maybe that the mum has rejected them?


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Irwin can totaly understand where you are coming from..there are alot that start with the lifelong wish.to own a monkey..they expect a cuddly we thing that will remain all cuddly..then it matures and does what they do best... Bite...some give up and get it passed on and some learn by there errors and education and go on to improve..putting people off getting any,,in my opinion is the best for all..education first...do you really think that people are going to post pics...the ones that keep in cages wont and the ones with enclosures wouldnt feel the need to justify to you...plus enclosures are only part of it..what about diet ,,supliments and proper lighting and heating...they could post pics of anywhere and you would never no....matt in my opinion isnt the person to climb on...the person letting a single go is..mat has done no wrong and through his learning and requirements to meet his pets needs he is taking the nessesary steps to correct someone elses errors for the well being of his marmoset.with regard to hand rearing there are some times not any other way..especially in triplets as they cant feed three..dont get me wrong as there has been ocations that three has stayed with parents,,very rare that no one would try the odds..getting back into the troop would be the answer and it can be done with a bit of work but there are times that they dont except.. Its different hand rearing to help survive than simply to try to achieve a cuddly pet for someone....with regard to mum carying they dont..they feed..dad carries. Even the female helpers in the troop dont cary the males do the females do short interaction and the males carry...this is carried on from mum and dad to let them learn..females dont like them on their back..well not for long periods anyway..except in geoldies where mum does everything for the first two weeks...they are weaned at about six weeks but are still learning from mum and dad...i think they should remain with mum and dad untill they have seen a birth and get the learning process about parenting...ethics in all type of keeping with all kind of animals differs from person to person and we all have veiws and opinions..i would say im quite passionate in my own personal veiws im the type to stick to my guns if i think there is wrong doing..so if you are a keeper and do infact keep any small primate species can you justify how you started, how you learned..mat has always came across as an educated person trying to do the best for his pet and wanting to learn so as the best he can possibly provide for fizz is achieved...this in my opinion is the start of something good..someone who took someone elses problem on and is educating himself...i read his post way back when he first got fizz..asking if there was anyone out there that new where there was a male of a similar age so as she could be with her own kind...dwa..they do vet and inspect but as others have stated its for human protection and very little about the animal welfare...well kind of but dont want to get into a long explanation..art10 vet and check where and how they are going to be kept..sometimes they just read your application and dont even visit but when they do visitits with a representative to make sure you are meeting the animals needs..but this is for protected species only...some type of licence would be good but you will always get black market..but as ive already said in my opinion i think that your inialation of mat is realy out of order.you seem to have turned it into a personal attack.. Sticking to morals and ethics you think are just is what will keep happening but ones that want whats best for theirs and want to learn and pass on their knowledge to others is best...but as i said i think education should come before purchase but someone with some education and doing what they think is for the best..doing what is a correcting process for the benefit of the animal,, is them moving forward...so as ive asked can you justify how you started..


----------



## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Who the hell do you think you are??? Demanding people post their primate enclosures otherwise you brand them as bad keepers. Well ill tell you something as if anyone would put piccies up with your attitude. Why dont you use that ingenious invention called a search button to have a look at peoples enclosures rather than wanting to slate everyone and anyone because u feel everyone is a crap owner. Why dont u post piccies of your enclosures thats if u actually have a primate of any type other than the ape starting this thread.


----------



## mark t (Sep 9, 2010)

Wasnt going to post, but find this fascinating ! well done Irwin.......matt, colin, neil and peter..........Peter...why didnt you provide matt with a young male marmoset ?? you dont gain financialy....surely you would of suitable age.....to give him or sell him reasonably, as it was going to someone who in your views does right by the animals ???? As i said before HIPPOCRITS.....Well done Irwin !.....thats me outa this section....i couldnt listen to this self rightous rubbish anymore ! Oh, and matt....you kept that quiet about your hand-reared marmoset.......well done mate ! 

mark


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Best thing ive read from you yet mark...theres a difference between hypocracy and having morals...you say hippocrits because some dont except your methods of hand rearing and reasons for doing so...you didnt even take any time to suss out anyone before letting it be common knoledge that you sold marmosets...maybe kooking for a quick buck without the bother of needing to hand rear to satisfy...you go against all morals that i have but at the end of the day some have the capability of agreeing to differ but you want to take every opertunity to attack people that dont agree with what you do...as ive already stated you are in a minority who would agree with your methods....if you took the time to suss people before unouncing and giving opinions you would see from mats first post on recieving fizz he gave an explanation into where and how she came to be with him...hopefully maybe someone someday will get the opertunity to enforce a law to make sure how and where these animals are passed on to..black market will still go on but it would be harder to hide...it is one point to do with marmies ..i would love to have this debated with a hall full of primate keepers...would primate keepers at zoos hand rear to satisfy..would they agree with someone wanting a couple to have as trophy pets...do they like people outwith zoos keeping??you said you are outa here mark...i dont think so...cause every now and again someone simmilar will apear and you will jump straight in with both feet to anounce the fact..you said there may be a nice guy there some where...this could apply to us both..we are two primate keepers with different standards,,but with all other requirements we may have more in common...its more than obvious you will never justify to me what you do and i really dont think you will change...but i will keep arguing the point that your ethics are in a minority.....what is it that you are meening by well done irwin...for what,, his first post or the attack on mat...you speak about vetting and educating...if they recieve hand reared for better pets then are they not getting educated that this is ok and carry on the trend...so we end up with thousands of monkeys imprinted to humans...not knowing what to do with their own babies ,,,so they need hand reared...it goes on and on and you are encouraging this practice....


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

peter: im aware that this will come across as a criticism but its honestly not meant as one: please will you consider using paragraphs? im sure your responses are informative but i cant read large chunks of text very well.:blush:

as for the rest of this im with rum&coke and selina.


----------



## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Mark

Just like you I was not going to post but seeing as you brought me in

Please tell or show me where I am a hypocrit.

I don't pull babies from their mothers
I don't put babies lives at risk
I don't inflict grieving on the parents
I don't sell unweaned animals
I don't sell primates without handling experience
Infact I have not sold a single primate
I have not told anyone how to keep their animals
I have not said people should not be allowed to keep them

Which are points I posted about and if you can find any evidence of me doing that please feel free to post it.

but we do vet any prospective buyers of any of our animals and if I deem them unsuitable they don't get them
we do deliver every single animal that we sell and that is not many as most of our young are loaned or donated to colleges / uni's and zoo's. Again if we are not happy we bring them home.

We have never advirtised our exotic animals anywhere for sale please feel free to search here, preloved etc.


So please tell me how I am a hypocrit.


Hi Irwin

Have you anything to add as you seem to think if I don't post any pics of my enclosures then I should crawl back in my hole

Best Wishes

Neil


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

At no point have I hid the fact that fizz is hand reared!! I wouldn't need to!! 
There is a BIG difference though in that she was hand reared as she was a triplet and mum was not feeding all three and people like you intentionally pulling young to hand rear!! 

So like I have said numerous times on here, get your facts straight before you start making digs at other people!!


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Irwin, demanding to see pictures of primate keepers marmoset enclosures is pointless. I could ask to see a pic of your bearded dragon viv (just an example) & find fault or have a difference of opinion about it. It doesn't prove anything. 

At the end of the day, we primate keepers do our best to provide our animals with as natural & stimulating environment as possible. Me personally, well I know my marmoset enclosure isn't 100% how I'd like it. For a start, I want an outdoor section to my aviary, but unfortunately the area where we live at the moment is pretty rough & I wouldn't trust letting my cats out, let alone house my marmosets outdoors! But they have space, stimulation, heat, UV light, a good diet, supplements, company of their own kind, & a keeper who wants to do right by them.


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

I have no experience keeping marmosets, or any other primate (other than myself) for that matter, but I do have experience with numerous other large mammals and reptile species. I know from experience that providing creatures with a natural environment and a suitable environment are totally different things. If everyone was so bothered about keeping pets in their natural environment, then we wouldn't keep them and we'd just leave them in the wild and admire them from afar, not from our homes.

Thankfully we chose to keep animals in captivity and observe them at much closer quarters. Now I can see where Irwin is coming from - this is only the *second *thread in the mammalian section of this site I have looked at and it is also the *second *thread that I see mammal keepers at each others throats like little children, bitching and fighting trying to out-do each other. There does seem to be a culture of edginess, secrecy and caution surrounding this hobby, where no one wants to share information or contacts with the "wrong crowd" or own up to anything at the risk of someone else accusing them of mistreating their animals etc and branding them all manner of things.

Perhaps this comes from the fact that this hobby is contraversial and there is a great deal of evidence that all primate species "suffer" to some degree in captivity and that there is nothing we as keepers can do about this. Everyone seems to know this deep down but still we keep these animals in captivity, constantly trying to find a balance between the needs of the animal and what is physically or financially within the reach of the keeper. I think this breeds an element of fear in keepers and thus makes mammal keepers aggressive and aggitated in this forum. There is no way people should come on here and have to justify themselves to anyone but perhaps the people who have had success keeping, or maybe breeding them (I don't know if this is common or even ever been done), should stand up and just be brave and say "this is what I have done, whether you think it is right or wrong, it has worked for me!"

I may be naive but I would like to think that most keepers on here have nothing to really be afraid of and that they are of course just doing the *very *best they can for their animals.


----------



## mark t (Sep 9, 2010)

PETER...I meant well done for irwins first post.........and as for "sussing people out before announcing that i sold marmosets".......i do plenty of vetting before i even consider anyone...as said repeatedly in my first couple of posts in the other thread......yes my ethics may be in a minority....thats your opinion.....and i would never dream of "BLACK MARKETING" my animals......i have more morals and ethics than you think...........and as for mat, all i can say is......if he doesnt agree with hand-rearing, then why buy a "Hand-Reared" marmoset ??......regardless of the reason for it being HAND-REARED ?? GAVE MONEY TO SOMEONE WHO OBVIOUSLY GAINED FINANCIALY...AND KEPT IT SINGLY, FOREVER HOW LONG HE DID......DOESNT MAKE SENSE AND CONTRADICTS ALL THAT YOU AND HE WERE SAYING !.....Anyway Peter, i have yet to attack anyone .....merely giving my opinion as you gave yours strongly.......as i say, people attack others who have their own opinions on here......and its the same few people everytime doing the attacking.......so guys, let people have their own views and opinions, and dont attack people for not doing as you do !! As said previously, im outa here....but i will still be watching to see what others views realy are(because i do listen to others opinions and take on-board what they have to say), and to see who jumps on who(usualy unfairly as most of them are not primate keepers)....all the best Peter

mark


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

Zoo-man ,how can you possibly give advice on people wanting marmies when you keep them indoors,no natural stimulants,this is what i am talking about,it is the incorrect way to keep monkeys.Whether you love them or not,it is not fair or right.To have no fresh air,sunlight or to watch and catch flies ect.and the general interest of living outside i find very sad.But heyho must not dare say anything against someone so popular.


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

irwin said:


> Zoo-man ,how can you possibly give advice on people wanting marmies when you keep them indoors,no natural stimulants,this is what i am talking about,it is the incorrect way to keep monkeys.Whether you love them or not,it is not fair or right.To have no fresh air,sunlight or to watch and catch flies ect.and the general interest of living outside i find very sad.But heyho must not dare say anything against someone so popular.


I agree here to some extent but again Irwin, perhaps, could have been a bit more tactful with the deliverance. I was illuding to this in my previous post. If you are not able to provide a species with what they need, you just shouldn't keep that species, that goes without saying surely? Whether you cannot afford the bills, don't have a house big enough, live in a rough area or not, these are all things to take into account when deciding what pet to own. It is just irresponsable to buy any pet if you know that you cannot provide it with what it needs.

This forum though is here so people can say what they are doing and how it working out, both the good and the bad. And it should not be an invitation for others to tear each other apart when something goes wrong or someone makes a mistake. This forum should be used as a learning tool for like-minded enthusiasts to share opinions and experiences, not a platform to persecute and attack others who have different opinons or ideas.


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

This is my last post on all this primate debate because I really really can't be bothered arguing with people, justifying my self to people but most of all REPEATING myself over and over again!! 

So .... When I was looking around to marmosets I took advise from a guy that had an advert for marmosets. Now bearing in mind I had done nearly 3years on and off research into the care, nutrition and biological study of marmosets I did not have any practical keeping experience and did not know all the hints/tips and experiences that all you experienced keepers had so taking advise from the guy advertising marmosets he advised me to get a handreared marmoset if I was a new keeper and when she was of breeding age get a male for her. As I said I had all the theory behind me but no practical so taking his advise I found another guy who had fizz and I went ahead a brought her. 

With hindsight being what it is this is not the way round I would have chosen to go. But as has been said we all do the best for the animals we keep and with learning the practical side of keeping from fizz I have got my own views on primate keeping now and with 'getting into certain circles' and talking to knowledgeable experienced keepers has helped amazingly!! Now as I say hindsight is fantastic but it still doesn't change the current situation. Which is why at 7 months months old I am getting a mate for fizz and not waiting till breeding age. 

Equaly for the hand reared side of things, it is what I was advised from the guy I possibly nievely believed. I am not afraid to admit but if I was more experienced I would have been of the opinions I am now. But people have to start somewhere and small mistakes and experiences in my eyes and a willingness to change, adapt and take onboard somethings others say makes you a better more adjusted keeper. 

But still my views on intentionally pulling a baby to hand rear for NO good reason is wrong. Fizz was hand reared as a case of need!! And personally I think to mysel if I was advised to buy hand reared, how many others have been and how many of those people are under the illusion that they will be your best friend. I was not one of these and for me the fact that she was Hand reared was not the beal and endel. 

So as I say I really am done with all these primate debates now. Wish everyone all the best.


----------



## mark t (Sep 9, 2010)

As i said before matt, everybody has to start somewhere......and i said this much earlier on , during the other thread.........no-one should be attacking anyone.....we all should be learning from EVERYONES experience shared within this forum ! And Nick.......good post mate.......level headed sound opinion !

mark


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

mark t said:


> and as for mat, all i can say is......if he doesnt agree with hand-rearing, then why buy a "Hand-Reared" marmoset ??......regardless of the reason for it being HAND-REARED ??
> 
> mark


I think you re getting confused Mark. Mat disagrees with HR when it is done for the buyers gain.

Pulling a baby to HR for reasons such as triplets, twins, rejection and so on are a far cry from pulling to meet a buyers criteria.

I beleive that it should be the sellers criteria that is met in the best interests of the animal, not the seller criteria in the bet interests of getting a definite sale.


----------



## mark t (Sep 9, 2010)

Actually Brittone.......not confused at all.......people cant buy Hand-Reared when it suits, and condemn when it suits.....no confusion at all !......However thanx for trying to point it out though !

mark


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

irwin said:


> Zoo-man ,how can you possibly give advice on people wanting marmies when you keep them indoors,no natural stimulants,this is what i am talking about,it is the incorrect way to keep monkeys.Whether you love them or not,it is not fair or right.To have no fresh air,sunlight or to watch and catch flies ect.and the general interest of living outside i find very sad.But heyho must not dare say anything against someone so popular.


So people who keep Skunks in their living room, or Raccoons in their spare room, etc etc, are all bad keepers who shoud not have those animals? Should I not be allowed to have Marmosets? Is it right to keep a Syrian hamster in a 2 foot cage, when this species in the wild will walk for hours on end in search of food? It is a fine line!

And if my marmosets had an outdoor section to their aviary, how much do you think they would benefit from it in winter? You will find (& I know from experience of working with the family group from which my female Marmoset came from) that indoors in the heat is where Marmosets stay when its cold outside! We should hopefully be moving house soon, to a place with a big garden, where my Marmosets can be provided with an outside area for the nicer weather. Then maybe I will be allowed to have Marmosets eh?


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mark t said:


> Wasnt going to post, but find this fascinating ! well done Irwin.......matt, colin, neil and peter..........Peter...why didnt you provide matt with a young male marmoset ?? you dont gain financialy....surely you would of suitable age.....to give him or sell him reasonably, as it was going to someone who in your views does right by the animals ???? As i said before HIPPOCRITS.....Well done Irwin !.....thats me outa this section....i couldnt listen to this self rightous rubbish anymore ! Oh, and matt....you kept that quiet about your hand-reared marmoset.......well done mate !
> 
> mark


I thought this was your last post here? :whistling2:


----------



## mark t (Sep 9, 2010)

Easy to see that its you causing the arguments on here.....actualy it wont be my last post ! hope your not heartbroken Zoo-man ! mind if i ask you why you call yourself "zoo-man" by the way....?? dont try to pick holes mate, i more than capable of pulling you apart on here if you start trouble...which judging by your last post you were trying to do......SO WIND YOUR NECK IN !


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mark t said:


> Easy to see that its you causing the arguments on here.....actualy it wont be my last post ! hope your not heartbroken Zoo-man ! mind if i ask you why you call yourself "zoo-man" by the way....?? dont try to pick holes mate, i more than capable of pulling you apart on here if you start trouble...which judging by your last post you were trying to do......SO WIND YOUR NECK IN !


How old are you??? 8???


----------



## mark t (Sep 9, 2010)

I see you cant read, or you wouldnt have to ask my age kid ! and you are the 1 that has the user name of a "Superhero".......and you ask what age i am ?? Go away and grow up unless you have something to discuss related to the thread your stirring up ! Talk marmosets, or shut up......... Pathetic mate ! ha ha ha...............


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mark t said:


> I see you cant read, or you wouldnt have to ask my age kid ! and you are the 1 that has the user name of a "Superhero".......and you ask what age i am ?? Go away and grow up unless you have something to discuss related to the thread your stirring up ! Talk marmosets, or shut up......... Pathetic mate ! ha ha ha...............


If you've posted your age, I havent seen it Mark. Im pathetic? Im not the one who causes suffering to parent & baby marmosets to make a pretty penny!


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

mark seriously what is your problem? iv never had any dealings with zooman (bar a discussion on how to keep pheonix's which defeyed sense by the end lol), so cant vouch for his charecter, but many people on here have hence why hes being defended. he has helped out a lot of people be it in person or over the internet (and lets just remind ourselves that this is the internet not a pub). you, on the other hand, rocked up in a marmosot thread and started laying into people within about 4 posts. people disagree with you, accept it, deal with it, move on. again its the internet, people will make judgements on you based on what you type, welcome to cyberspace! you may be a perfectly decent person who also goes out of his way to help people. or you may be a modern day jack the ripper. tis the mystery of the internet my freind.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

miss_ferret said:


> mark seriously what is your problem? iv never had any dealings with zooman (bar a discussion on how to keep pheonix's which defeyed sense by the end lol), so cant vouch for his charecter, but many people on here have hence why hes being defended. he has helped out a lot of people be it in person or over the internet (and lets just remind ourselves that this is the internet not a pub). you, on the other hand, rocked up in a marmosot thread and started laying into people within about 4 posts. people disagree with you, accept it, deal with it, move on. again its the internet, people will make judgements on you based on what you type, welcome to cyberspace! you may be a perfectly decent person who also goes out of his way to help people. or you may be a modern day jack the ripper. tis the mystery of the internet my freind.


Thanks Miss Ferret! I remember the Phoenix keeping chat - very funny! :lol2:

You are right, it is a tricky thing to decipher how a person is meant to be or sound on the internet.


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

At the end of the day guys..All do the best they can with the means they have..There are vetted zoos out there that in my opinion have inadequate housing..They are vetted on a regular basis..One thing was posted and that was they should all be running wild..Maybe so but that would be the same for all animals,,not just monkeys..We can all have our veiws,,opinions,,ethics and morals..We can advise to the best of our ability but with this post i think its time to agree to differ..If we are happy with what we do then we will carry on doing it..If some advice comes to light that we think is good practice then what we do with that advice is up to the indevidual..Surely this should now be put to bed as it seems to me to be getting out of hand..The original was about hand rearing for suitability..Istill dont agree but at the end of the day ,,my answer is to stick to my own ethics and my ways of keeping and at the end of the day how others do what they do is up to them..Mark and myself were banging heads about the subject and as ive stated we all have our ways right or wrong...Its hard to get to know anyone from this forum as we are all individuals that in some ocations have never met..It doesnt make people idiots or even infact bad people its all down to different types of education with regard to keeping...We do as we think best and we all think we have had the better training..Ithink that through time and experiance comes change for the best..We all learn by mistakes usually and as long as those mistakes are not repeated or the welfare of the animal put at risk then it will still go on..Bad practice, good practice..Its different ways...Im not saying under any circumstances that i agree with all that im reading but change is down to the individual...Ithink colin is a nice guy with his own ways and doing the best he can with the circumstances he has..And Mark other than the disagreement about hand rearing i dont have a problem with...We dont know enough about each other to start shouting and i just feel that this debate has brought about some strong veiws and now its starting a personal slagging match(at least im not on the recieving end this time lol)


----------



## chrismisk (Oct 6, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> If you've posted your age, I havent seen it Mark. Im pathetic? Im not the one who causes suffering to parent & baby marmosets to make a pretty penny!


Guess you don't read everything the first time or only read what you want to, this was posted just after and before your comments on the other thread,which you qouted marks post just before this one.



mark t said:


> peter, this isnt personal ! im a 40 year old man with many years experience in many exotics, and not just primates....i respect your views and dont disagree, but these animals are being sold by a lot of unsuitable people, to a lot of unsuitable people....but thats not me ! and like you, i have worked along side the vet for Belfast Zoo. who can vouch for the way i keep my animals, and the measures i take to re-home to the best of our ability . As for vetting....so have i, and am a valid DWA license holder. Leaving some marms in the troop wasnt covered because the debate was on hand-rearing. Its not personal at all, just dont like being attacked for being 1 of the better keepers over here. And as for breeders over here, you may not know this, but the few that i know over here DO hand-rear and sell.....they just dont disclose the fact. but im an honest guy, and am up front about what i do......and dont do it for financial gain...all the best peter
> 
> mark


----------



## mark t (Sep 9, 2010)

At last, someone who actualy reads the posts...without wearing blinkers or having a hidden agenda....well done mate !


mark


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mark t said:


> At last, someone who actualy reads the posts...without wearing blinkers or having a hidden agenda....well done mate !
> 
> 
> mark


I missed or forgot about the age part. My bad, sorry! :blush:


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

irwin said:


> Zoo-man ,how can you possibly give advice on people wanting marmies when you keep them indoors,no natural stimulants,this is what i am talking about,it is the incorrect way to keep monkeys.Whether you love them or not,it is not fair or right.To have no fresh air,sunlight or to watch and catch flies ect.and the general interest of living outside i find very sad.But heyho must not dare say anything against someone so popular.


We have pygmys and cotton tops in enclosures without outside access. The Geoffroys do have outside access. All three troops are breeding and are all healthy and exhibiting perfectly natural behaviours (as far as possible within any captive environment).

Although outside areas are a nice 'ideal' they are not an 'essential'. 

I would certainly argue that pulling unweaned youngsters from their parents is vastly more distressing to primates than a lack of outside access.

Cheers

Andy


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

bothrops said:


> We have pygmys and cotton tops in enclosures without outside access. The Geoffroys do have outside access. All three troops are breeding and are all healthy and exhibiting perfectly natural behaviours (as far as possible within any captive environment).
> 
> Although outside areas are a nice 'ideal' they are not an 'essential'.
> 
> ...


Hey Andy, thanks for your input mate. As you say, having an outdoor part to an enclosure is a nice addition to a Marmoset's housing, but is not totally essential. There are many other species of animals that are routinely housed indoors without any problems (parrots, skunks, cats etc). I hope to visit next time we are down your way mate : victory:


----------



## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Hi all. I'm not going to get involved in all the arguing as I've had more than enough of that from other ex (?) members that I clash with! lol!

Anyway, I used to keep small primates, Marms, Cotton Top Tams, Red Handed Tams, and Red Bellied Tams and I know the trials and tribulations of breeding and I have seen the bond that forms between the family. We would never let a parent reared youngster go for at least a year, or until they had helped rear another youngster as that is a very important part of the social and learning process for them.

In my opinion, hand rearing is only acceptable if a youngster is not being cared for or has been dropped by the adult. Hand rearing for profit is unacceptable (we see it a bit in the Glider world too). But as no one on here hand rears for profit then all is good. 

I would NEVER post pictures of the enclosures of ANY of my animals on this forum, not because I'm a bad keeper but because I'm never happy with them myself and I can't be bothered with the disussions and justifying myself and what this is and that is!

I do think though that natural light for diurnal species is a neccessity as primates have high D3 requirements, if that is not possible then the diet should be supplemented. 

As a diurnal species ourselves, we (some of us, me included) feel the difference in our mood and wellbeing between the summer and winter months due to the amount of light we get. The amount of light affects mood, a lack of light increases the melatonin levels in the brain throwing the body clock out of sinc. Light decreases melatonin and increases serotonin. A lack of Seratonin is linked to depression. 

We keep Ring Tail Lemurs now, and there is a huge difference in the quality of their coats through the winter and summer months because in winter we tend to not let them out, but in summer they're out for at least 12 hours, usually let out around 8am and put away between 8pm and 10pm.

Don't know if any of you have seen the DEFRA codes of practice, it has been written by one of the vets at Chester Zoo (can't remember his name). You might find it useful or you might rip it to shreds. I just added because I thought it might be useful to see how the authorities (remember this is written by a vet) think we should be keeping primates. 
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/welfare-cop-primates/code-practice-primates.pdf


----------



## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Glidergirl

Thanks for posting the link :2thumb:

Enjoyed reading it.

Best Wishes

Neil


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

An interesting read, thanks Glider Girl! : victory:


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

Thanks glidergirl. Vey useful link.


----------



## James_525 (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm venturing in here from the lizard section for the first time, because I'm bored. Over there its not uncommon for examples of poor husbandry to be jumped on torn to pieces without the OP being given any chance to explain themselves. However, I've never seen such an aggressive first post aimed at everyone and noone.

I don't know anything about keeping primates, I imagine that as they're very intelligent and active they have way more requirements than the average gecko. I don't know or have spoken to any of the posters on here (i think). I could maybe understand the ferocity of the original post if someone had annoyed the OP, but it just keeps going. All I get from this whole thread as a neutral outsider, speaking without prejudice, is:

Irwin, you're a bit of a d:censor:k mate.


----------



## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

James_525 said:


> All I get from this whole thread as a neutral outsider, speaking without prejudice, is:
> 
> Irwin, you're a bit of a d:censor:k mate.


^^ This!

Seems the thread set out to cause a fight and got one. Purpose fulfilled. End now?


----------



## Myo (Feb 14, 2008)

I don't see the problem with keeping a marmoset in doors. so what if it's in a parrot cage? parrot cages are huge! Marmosets are tiny. My dog has a smaller cage than most parrots. So it's not natural, it's not natural to keep a snake in a viv, or a mouse in a mouse cage. It's not natural to keep a fish in a tank for christ's sake. I know primates need the company of their own species, mental stimulation, pleanty of excersize and a good diet, but why can't you give them all that in your living room?


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I doubt that most of the people who care to keep primates in parrot cages in thier living room would give 2 hoots about them needing mental enrichment, social structure and uch like Myo.


----------



## Myo (Feb 14, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> I doubt that most of the people who care to keep primates in parrot cages in thier living room would give 2 hoots about them needing mental enrichment, social structure and uch like Myo.


 
Maybe you're right, but just because someone doesn't have 10 grand lying round to build a huge outdoor enclosure for a whole troop of marms doesn't mean they don't care. I don't really know anything about them, but I just thought I'd put that point across because when people moan about primate keepers on this site a lot of what they say seems to be based largley on the assumption that the keeper(s) in question don't care about the animals they keep.

I'd still like to know - is there any possible way to keep a primate or pair of primates happy and healthy in your living room? If not, why?


----------



## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

that was an interesting read, yet no pics, im gutted 
i'd like to see Irwins pics the most


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

MYO, I see your point. I would say that many of the hopefully small handful of people who keep a Marmoset in a parrot cage in their living room do care about their monkey. However, that care is limited to the way of thinking that would tell them the Marmoset is in the warmth, it has the owner/s to talk to it, it always has a full food bowl, it is loved, etc etc. These owners would do their pet a huge favour if they saw the bigger picture. They would ideally be educated that the vast majority of primate species are social, so need to be kept as a pair at least. Also, an understanding of the correct diet, behaviour, & environmental needs should be learnt. Unfortunately, the Marmosets in parrot cages in living rooms are almost without exception, overeight, fed all manner of foods from marshmallows to french fries, they will have little social skills towards other Marmosets, & they may well have been hand-reared & kept purposely to become a pet. 

Also, yes, there are some huge parrot cages on the market, but generally these living room Marmosets are kept in smaller cages than the average Macaw cage.

As I said earlier in the thread, I house my Marmosets indoors in a spare room, as currently it is not safe for my Marmosets to have an outdoor enclosure. I see no detrimental effects to my Marmosets from not having an outdoor section of their enclosure, but ideally I would like them to have an outdoor section, which they will get when I eventually move to a nicer area.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

cloggers said:


> that was an interesting read, yet no pics, im gutted
> *i'd like to see Irwins pics the most*


:lol2:


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

See I think colin hits the nail on the head with his post - there is a massive differene in keeping a lone marm in a parrot cage/living room to keeping a marm indoors with the correct lighting to provide D3, the correct stimulation and environmental enrichment and the correct company ( being another marm or marms )

Some people genuinely beleive that thier 4 year old child can substitute for the troop structure, that thier leftover chippy food is an enrichment for their diet and that the Tv being left on national geographic is mental stimulation!


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> See I think colin hits the nail on the head with his post - there is a massive differene in keeping a lone marm in a parrot cage/living room to keeping a marm indoors with the correct lighting to provide D3, the correct stimulation and environmental enrichment and the correct company ( being another marm or marms )
> 
> Some people genuinely beleive that thier 4 year old child can substitute for the troop structure, that thier leftover chippy food is an enrichment for their diet and that the Tv being left on national geographic is mental stimulation!


Thanks hun! : victory:


----------



## Myo (Feb 14, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> they may well have been hand-reared & kept purposely to become a pet.


The rest were all fair points, but what's wrong with the above? My dog has been hand reared and kept purposley to become a pet. My dog is happy and healthy and there is nothing wrong with the way I keep it.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Myo said:


> The rest were all fair points, but what's wrong with the above? My dog has been hand reared and kept purposley to become a pet. My dog is happy and healthy and there is nothing wrong with the way I keep it.


Do you mean your dog was taken away from it's mother before it was weaned, either straight after being born, or shortly after, & hand-reared by a human to make it purposely tame to make it a better pet? As that is what happens to way too many baby Marmosets! Doing this causes unnecessary suffering to the mother & father, & also to the baby.


----------



## 1555child (May 11, 2010)

Ding Ding.... round 8


----------



## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

This thread is an abomination. We have people who can't spell, people who can't use paragraphs (my poor eyes after reading) , people who barely know ENGLISH and 8 pages dedicated to PICTURES OF PRIMATE ENCLOSURES.....which has resulted in NO PICTURES and nearly 70 posts of flaming, insults and childish nonsense. Aside from the few good posts from people w/ brains and functioning hemispheres, this is what I feel like doing to the majority of you right now: 


YouTube - Johnny Cage vs. Goro - Punch 'Em in the Dick Version


Grow the hell up, People.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Victor Creed said:


> This thread is an abomination. We have people who can't spell, people who can't use paragraphs (my poor eyes after reading) , people who barely know ENGLISH and 8 pages dedicated to PICTURES OF PRIMATE ENCLOSURES.....which has resulted in NO PICTURES and nearly 70 posts of flaming, insults and childish nonsense. Aside from the few good posts from people w/ brains and functioning hemispheres, this is what I feel like doing to the majority of you right now:
> 
> 
> YouTube - Johnny Cage vs. Goro - Punch 'Em in the Dick Version
> ...


I think the whole aim of the thread was to stir trouble personally.

BTW, Im liking the user name mate, as you can see, I also love the X-Men! :2thumb:


----------



## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> I think the whole aim of the thread was to stir trouble personally.
> 
> BTW, Im liking the user name mate, as you can see, I also love the X-Men! :2thumb:



Thanks Bro, my signature is actually a picture of the back of my jacket. My friend airbrushed it for me.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Victor Creed said:


> Thanks Bro, my signature is actually a picture of the back of my jacket. My friend airbrushed it for me.


Thats cool, I like it! : victory:


----------



## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Thats cool, I like it! : victory:


Thanks, he does great work, IMO....I almost jizzed in my pants when I 1st saw the jacket finished...lololololol. I had him do a tattoo on me too....he has alot of artistic talent and uses it for many things. I'd start hooking you guys up w/ him for business, but there's an entire Atlantic Ocean between us


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Victor Creed said:


> Thanks, he does great work, IMO....I almost jizzed in my pants when I 1st saw the jacket finished...lololololol. I had him do a tattoo on me too....he has alot of artistic talent and uses it for many things. I'd start hooking you guys up w/ him for business, but there's an entire Atlantic Ocean between us


:lol2:


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

I think everyone is using this post to have a go at Irwin but at the end of the day why doesn't anyone else see that the guy clearly has a frustration with something and that all he needs is some advice or support from fellow enthusiasts. Yeah he may not have gone about it in the right way but when sift through the childish insults and such like, there is a clear issue here that perhaps needed to be brought up.

This forum seems to be a breeding ground for people's judgement and pouring of scorn on others at the first opportunity. I think mammal keepers, and in particular primate keepers, are at higher risk because of the "cute and cuddly" and more humanistic nature of the species they keep. It's easy to criticise someone who does something differently to you but this forum is here to share ideas and suggest improvements to the husbandry of these fantastic animals.

Irwin why don't you just tell us why you are annoyed, frustrated, disillusioned etc, if indeed you are that is, and then maybe other people with similar experiences could try and help you out.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

nickcradd067 said:


> I think everyone is using this post to have a go at Irwin but at the end of the day why doesn't anyone else see that the guy clearly has a frustration with something and that all he needs is some advice or support from fellow enthusiasts. Yeah he may not have gone about it in the right way but when sift through the childish insults and such like, there is a clear issue here that perhaps needed to be brought up.
> 
> This forum seems to be a breeding ground for people's judgement and pouring of scorn on others at the first opportunity. I think mammal keepers, and in particular primate keepers, are at higher risk because of the "cute and cuddly" and more humanistic nature of the species they keep. It's easy to criticise someone who does something differently to you but this forum is here to share ideas and suggest improvements to the husbandry of these fantastic animals.
> 
> Irwin why don't you just tell us why you are annoyed, frustrated, disillusioned etc, if indeed you are that is, and then maybe other people with similar experiences could try and help you out.


I think Irwin started this thread because there was another thread in this section not long before this one was started, where someone said they removed baby marmosets from their parents for hand-rering so they would make tame pets. Myself & others said we found this practice unethical & cruel, to both the infants & their parents. The OP of that thread got very defensive & aggressive, & Irwin joined in that debate. So this thread is Irwin demanding that us primate keepers show him photos of how we keep our primates, as in is opinion, we are judgemantal & hypocritical.


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

Zoo-man you just dont get it,whether a primate has been took for hand rearing or not ,i have a problem with people who keep primates like you do,by your own admission not correctly.Primates do not belong in peoples houses in glorified bird avairies,i am afraid you can try and justify it as much as you like,its wrong.You will then breed your monkeys and sell to people with the same kind of set-up,so the problem goes on. You will always try to lead us to beleive they lead an exciting and stimulating life ,but i doubt it.I wanted to see some enclosures to prove myself wrong,but as none have been posted i can only assume you are ashamed of their enclosures,dont forget these poor animals may spend 20 years plus in it.


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

I don't see a problem with Irwin's point there to be honest. He disagrees with the practices of another poster and he states that here, just as Zoo-Man did when he heard of the baby marmoset being taked from it's mother for hand-rearing.

At the end of the day, you are all fighting losing battles keeping these primates anyway because you can never recreate their natural environment without just leaving them in the wild in the first place. The animals are no longer wild and so their needs are not the same as those from the wild. Yeah it might be more enriching for the individual if they have an outdoor section of the enclosure, this I do agree with. The anti hand-rearing argument I do not agree with though.

These animals are being bred in captivity for the pet trade, end of. Therefore if hand-rearing the babies makes them tamer and easier to handle, surely they will become better "pets" and they will be cared for more in a loving home later on when they are sold.

It is very hypocritical to argue against hand-rearing because it is unatural and unethical, when you are keeping an undomesticated animal, that is essentially still wild*, in an unatural environment in the first place.

I might be completely wrong, as I am sure you will all tell me now, I am the first to admit that I have no experience keeping primates and nor will I ever. I just don't like to see the forum abused in this way and so if I can offer my opinion in an attempt to help people see sense, then I will do my best.


*what I mean by this is that the animals have not been kept in captivity for long enough to allow them to become domesticated and akin with human lifestyles, as dogs are for example. How many people do you know with 3 or more cats? Well cats are a distinctly solitary creature (Lions aside) and keeping them in this way would breed conflict and aggression in the group. This is not often the case however because of the domestication process over the last few hundred years that have made cats more accepting of others and less reliant on instinct.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

irwin said:


> Zoo-man you just dont get it,whether a primate has been took for hand rearing or not ,i have a problem with people who keep primates like you do,by your own admission not correctly.Primates do not belong in peoples houses in glorified bird avairies,i am afraid you can try and justify it as much as you like,its wrong.You will then breed your monkeys and sell to people with the same kind of set-up,so the problem goes on. You will always try to lead us to beleive they lead an exciting and stimulating life ,but i doubt it.I wanted to see some enclosures to prove myself wrong,but as none have been posted i can only assume you are ashamed of their enclosures,dont forget these poor animals may spend 20 years plus in it.


Irwin, I see no comparison between a neonate marmoset being taken from its parents just so it can be hand-reared artificially to make it a tame pet for someone, & marmosets not having access to the outdoors. The hand-rearing point causes unnecessary suffering to both the neonate & its parents! Not having outdoor access but having a large enriching indoor aviary the size of a room does not cause suffering, it just limits enrichment opportunities, which means the keeper must be constantly thinking of new ways to stimulate their marmosets.

Many of the best private primate keepers house their animals indoors! And it is private keepers who have the most success with small primates, not zoological collections!

Of course, Im not saying that primates in private (or public) collections are better off in captivity than in the wild, that is obviously clear to see that the wild cannot be recreated 100%, & it would be dilussional to think this. We can only do our best for our charges.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

nickcradd067 said:


> I don't see a problem with Irwin's point there to be honest. He disagrees with the practices of another poster and he states that here, just as Zoo-Man did when he heard of the baby marmoset being taked from it's mother for hand-rearing.
> 
> At the end of the day, you are all fighting losing battles keeping these primates anyway because you can never recreate their natural environment without just leaving them in the wild in the first place. The animals are no longer wild and so their needs are not the same as those from the wild. Yeah it might be more enriching for the individual if they have an outdoor section of the enclosure, this I do agree with. The anti hand-rearing argument I do not agree with though.
> 
> ...


As I said in the post above this one, I do not think stealing away a newborn monkey from its parents & family can be compared to well cared for monkeys not having an outdoor section to their enclosure! One causes great suffering to the animals involved, the other just reduces the amount of stimulation the monkeys have, which can be helped by their keeper being inventive & creative.


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

First of all i will say sorry for not using paragraphs,,i was led to believe this was a site for animals..Good on me though i was wrong,,im back at school getting educated in English..
Anyway this seems to be going on forever..Irwin why dont you start the ball rolling...
How to you think is the proper means to keeping small primates?
Can you show pictures of your enclosures so as we can be educated.?
Do you not have hospital cages?
Are any of them inside the house to eliminate stress,,(quietness)?
Have you at any point in your experiance with primates ever housed indoors?
Please dont take this as argumentative as its not meant that way but i think that an explanation to what you require might help me understand...Oversized avaries etc ..What do you deem to be proper..I make changes everytime i build another housing,most i know do as you discover better ways from other keepers..
You come across as some one who is dead against the keeping of primates but i may be wrong..
Are you?
Ive personaly kept for sevaral years and always want better,,but what is better..
Do they live longer in their own envirament ? Or kept in captivity.?
What about the breeding programmes to try to maintain certain species,,article 10 for instance?
They have to give documentation to DEFRA to keep them, which includes housing etc..Do they keep them in the manner you expect or not?
All of us have our own ways ,,like ive said before,There are allot of zoos out there that could in allot of peoples opinions be kept better.Doesnt matter what we public think ,,they are meeting the required standards by the relevent bodies so theres no change..
I do think your point about them not being kept in bird cages is tottaly on the nail...But theres keeping in cages and KEEPING IN CAGES.


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> As I said in the post above this one, I do not think stealing away a newborn monkey from its parents & family can be compared to well cared for monkeys not having an outdoor section to their enclosure! One causes great suffering to the animals involved, the other just reduces the amount of stimulation the monkeys have, which can be helped by their keeper being inventive & creative.


I think you would find that offspring losing their parents is far more natural that them being hand-reared!

Hand-rearing need not cause great suffering. I truely believe that not housing the primate correctly would do far more harm in the long run (i.e. lack of mental and physical stimulation and excercise). That is just my opinion and is what I have deduced from scientific research I have read during my time at university (stereotypies etc).

I have done work on farms associated with livestock management and I know from that, that there are strict guidelines specifying the types of enrichment and stocking densities etc, that the animals must have. Are there no such guidelines for exotic pets and specifically primates?


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

nickcradd067 said:


> I think you would find that offspring losing their parents is far more natural that them being hand-reared!
> 
> *Hand-rearing need not cause great suffering. I truely believe that not housing the primate correctly would do far more harm in the long run* (i.e. lack of mental and physical stimulation and excercise). That is just my opinion and is what I have deduced from scientific research I have read during my time at university (stereotypies etc).
> 
> I have done work on farms associated with livestock management and I know from that, that there are strict guidelines specifying the types of enrichment and stocking densities etc, that the animals must have. Are there no such guidelines for exotic pets and specifically primates?


How would you reduce the suffering when hand-rearing? Send the parent monkeys to a counsellor? :lol2:

You can't reduce the mental anguish that parent monkeys experience when their offspring have been forcibly removed from the father's body! Saying "there there" to them doesn't cut it Im afraid.


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

nickcradd067 said:


> I think you would find that offspring losing their parents is far more natural that them being hand-reared!
> 
> Hand-rearing need not cause great suffering. I truely believe that not housing the primate correctly would do far more harm in the long run (i.e. lack of mental and physical stimulation and excercise). That is just my opinion and is what I have deduced from scientific research I have read during my time at university (stereotypies etc).
> 
> I have done work on farms associated with livestock management and I know from that, that there are strict guidelines specifying the types of enrichment and stocking densities etc, that the animals must have. Are there* no such guidelines for exotic pets and specifically primates*?


 
I take it you didn't read through Maria's link to just such a set of guidelines linked earlier in the thread?


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

bothrops said:


> I take it you didn't read through Maria's link to just such a set of guidelines linked earlier in the thread?


No I didn't, hence the question mark!


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> How would you reduce the suffering when hand-rearing? Send the parent monkeys to a counsellor? :lol2:
> 
> You can't reduce the mental anguish that parent monkeys experience when their offspring have been forcibly removed from the father's body! Saying "there there" to them doesn't cut it Im afraid.


So what happens to the parents of the countless baby monkeys in the wild that die of predation, malnutrition, poaching, getting lost etc??

The loss of offspring is a completely natural occurance in all species that are raised by their parents. Being kept indoors is not.

I do not remember who it was in this thread who said that they didn't allow their animal(s) an outdoor run because the area they lived in was too rough but if you cannot provide the animals with what they need to live a fulfilled and enriched life, then choose a different species to keep!!


----------



## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> So what happens to the parents of the countless baby monkeys in the wild that die of predation, malnutrition, poaching, getting lost etc??
> 
> The loss of offspring is a completely natural occurance in all species that are raised by their parents. Being kept indoors is not.
> 
> I do not remember who it was in this thread who said that they didn't allow their animal(s) an outdoor run because the area they lived in was too rough but if you cannot provide the animals with what they need to live a fulfilled and enriched life, then choose a different species to keep!!


 why don't you keep your gecko's outside then?


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

nickcradd067 said:


> So what happens to the parents of the countless baby monkeys in the wild that die of predation, malnutrition, poaching, getting lost etc??
> 
> The loss of offspring is a completely natural occurance in all species that are raised by their parents. Being kept indoors is not.
> 
> I do not remember who it was in this thread who said that they didn't allow their animal(s) an outdoor run because the area they lived in was too rough but if you cannot provide the animals with what they need to live a fulfilled and enriched life, then choose a different species to keep!!


In the wild, it is natural for offspring to die, be predated, still born, etc. It is not at all natural, however, for a human to remove a perfectly healthy baby marmoset from its parents for hand-rearing for purely selfish reasons (ie, to make it a tame pet).

It was me who said that my marmosets do not currently have an outdoor section to their enclosure as I live in a rough area. Ok, so I shouldn't keep my marmosets? What would you like me to do with them then?

Also, as I said in an earlier post today, many of the most knowledgable well respected primate keepers house their primates indoors.


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

You will be causing your poor little dog to suffer when she gives birth ,i take it this is purely for financial gain.Do you think she will be happy when all her babies are sold,or maybe dogs dont pine.


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

tomwilson said:


> why don't you keep your gecko's outside then?


Completely irrelevant!!


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> Completely irrelevant!!


why is it? all animals where once wild, used to roaming huge open spaces, many of them are now kept in much smaller versions of that space (ie a cage or tank) in captivity. would you consider me cruel for keeping a barn owl in captivity? wild syrian hamsters roam miles in the wild, can this ever be recreated in a hamster cage? im sorry if this is going off topic but it irritates me that people go off on one about the conditions primates may be kept in in captivity just because there seen as 'more intellegent'. there are so many animals kept incorrectly, be this intentionally or unintentionally. im not getting at you but i dont understand why people think one species is more deserving than another.


----------



## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

irwin said:


> You will be causing your poor little dog to suffer when she gives birth ,i take it this is purely for financial gain.Do you think she will be happy when all her babies are sold,or maybe dogs dont pine.


I've stayed out of this so far as I know zip about primates and their husbandry bar what little experience I have from working with the pair we had at college. 
The above comment though has totally infuriated me. Do YOU keep animals? 
Where the hell did you think they came from? Oh thats right... some one bred them! Have you ever bred animals? You really can't make a profit on them unless you cut every conceivable corner and are breeding high end colour morphs. Animals are expensive to run. Breeding animals even more so.

Whilst I am NOT against good, ethical breeding, I am massively against indiscriminate breeding of ANY animal. That doesn't mean I think all animals should be bred purely to a show standard or similar but it means I believe they should only be bred to better the breed/species from a genetic and phenotypic standpoint. There are so many crap examples of pastel royal pythons, hybridised dwarf hamsters, genetically defective dogs and cats... It only takes a bit of time and thought and the will to start with quality animals to breed quality animals.

I have NO doubt that zoo-man had his dog vet checked, hip scored etc prior to breeding her because whilst I don't know him from adam, I do take note of what people do and say on here and he's not an idiot. He cares.

Making such ridiculous anti-breeding comments has nothing to do with this thread and comes across as you going off at random tangents because you're running out of arguments...



> Completely irrelevant!!


You are also not thinking about what you are saying. So it's ok to keep leos inside but not other animals? Natural goes out of the windew when keeping animals as you are of course well aware. If we wanted to replicate the wild we'd kill off a percentage of the resulting babies, not treat wounds and allow them to suppurate. 
I don't understand your way of thinking at all. 

I'm sure it would be possibly to rig up an arcadia bird light in a marmoset enclosure in order to simulate natural sunlight and D3 synthesis. That way the animal isn't going to miss the natural sunshine.


----------



## KWIBEZEE (Mar 15, 2010)

*??? opinions...*

Protect the wilderness NOW - DONATE TO ALL THE GOOD WILDLIFE GROUPS AND CONSERVATION PROJECTS then go see your favourites on an Ecotour. Splendid.

Primates are certainly a different kettle of fish. I see why a person needs to gain the experience in order to keep them in the first instance but I am sure only a very few people do actually have the right attitude and intelligence of keeping them. Personally I am of the opinion that Primates should only be kept by specialists such as Zoo's that are now breeding and aiding conservatiuon projects etc or that a person should have a direct link to the such and that they are visited by Zoo staff etc to do all that is best. I would strongly discourage any newbie though.


: victory:


----------



## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Good post Twiglet!

Kwibezee, private keepers have a very high success rate breeding primates, a private keeper can give the animals something a zoo cannot and that's privacy (except when an animal is off show at a zoo of course). GOOD keepers of any species know their animals, they can give their animals more, quality time. Zoo keepers do a great job but they have a lot to do, and a lot of animals to care for and I find with all animals observation is the key. I love to watch my animals play and act as naturally as possible, grooming, foraging, eating, etc. 

Indoors or outdoors, the main issue is UV, and if that is provided then there is nothing wrong with an indoor enclosure. What difference does it make to the enrichment? They forage indoors or outdoors, they climb, jump, play and breed indoors or outdoors. I prefer them to have access to an outdoor enclosure but the safety of the animal comes first. 

The handrearing 'thing' is unethical, you should watch my monkey baby or whatever it was called about Americans keeping primates as chilod substitutes and it shows what happens when the primate grows up - it's not a pretty sight in most cases! The breeders' practices were absolutely sickening! 

All primates LEARN from their parents, not all behaviors are instinctive, take breeding for example, this is a learned behavior. When we used to breed Tamarins the young never left us until they had assisted in raising a baby themselves at least once! 

If people want a handreared animal then it's not the animal they want is it? It's the 'unconditional' love they crave. I have handreared animals (because they were rejected) and what you are actually doing is comitting yourself to upto and in excess of 20 years of caring for that animal, they are completely dependant on you, and when you get bored of them they're either neglected or sold on, it doesn't matter to the human about the bond and the needs of the animal. It's not like caring for a child, an animal doesn't understand that you might want time to yourself, or if you're ill (the common cold can kill a primate).

Primates are primates, they're not a good 'pet' species, they should be appreciated for what they are.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

irwin said:


> You will be causing your poor little dog to suffer when she gives birth ,i take it this is purely for financial gain.Do you think she will be happy when all her babies are sold,or maybe dogs dont pine.


Dogs do not have as strong a bond with their offspring than primates! And who said all her babies are going to be sold???


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Great posts by Miss Ferret, Twiglet & Glider Girl! :notworthy:

My marmosets have UV lighting in their enclosure, so they recieve the benefit of UV rays, as they would from the sun (which, lets face it, isn't out much in the UK!).


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Dogs do not have as strong a bond with their offspring than primates! And who said all her babies are going to be sold???


 

Also when the pups are sold at about 8 weeks old the mother has naturally loosened the bond unlike primates who keep that strong bond for so much longer.



Handreared animals do NOT make better pets what ever the species


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Best ive read yet Glidergirl good on you


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Also when the pups are sold at about 8 weeks old the mother has naturally loosened the bond unlike primates who keep that strong bond for so much longer.
> 
> 
> 
> Handreared animals do NOT make better pets what ever the species


Good point Shell.

BTW, for people who do not know Shell, she has hand-reared many mammal species, including dogs, cats, & hedgehogs, so she knows a thing or two about hand-reared animals!


----------



## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

I think another point needs to be added for those who think handrearing primates for pets is ok.

Primates learn to rear their own babies by getting experience from their parents. They are given the babies to hold, they see their parents biting the cords etc and it is believed most of the rearing behaviour is learnt and not instinctive / hereditery.

Therefore someone who takes a baby away to hand rear is more than likely condemming future babies ( if they breed them ) to death or to being hand reared. Despite what people think it is not an easy job to hand rear very young primates, I should know as we have tried unsuccessfully on a few occasions and before anyone asks we had to as one of my pair has no handling experience ( even though we were told they had ).

Neil


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Thanks for the introduction Colin:lol2:
The probem with handreared animals is they imprint and that in itself causes problems.
I have learnt through my many years of handrearing that once the animal starts to wean is the time to let it have some time with the same species so they learn about what they are and how they should behave.
Imprinted animals have no bite inhibition, have no social skills and suffer from seperation anxiety which causes stress and this makes for a problematic and aggressive adult animal whatever the species.
I dont pretend to know much about primates but do know that they have a very close family bond so taking them away from their parents at an early age will not only cause problems with the infant but the parents too.
No animal should ever be removed from its parents just to make a human dependent pet:bash:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

kodakira said:


> I think another point needs to be added for those who think handrearing primates for pets is ok.
> 
> Primates learn to rear their own babies by getting experience from their parents. They are given the babies to hold, they see their parents biting the cords etc and it is believed most of the rearing behaviour is learnt and not instinctive / hereditery.
> 
> ...


Very true Neil! :2thumb:


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Dogs do not have as strong a bond with their offspring than primates! And who said all her babies are going to be sold???


Colin ain't selling his babies anyhooo - he is giving them all to me so :whip::mf_dribble::blush::Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> Colin ain't selling his babies anyhooo - he is giving them all to me so :whip::mf_dribble::blush::Na_Na_Na_Na:


You monster!!! I am waiting to get 101 Chihuahuas & then I will make....................................................................................a small hat! :lol2:


----------



## africa (Sep 12, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> You monster!!! I am waiting to get 101 Chihuahuas & then I will make....................................................................................a small hat! :lol2:


This proves what a good animal owner you are Colin :mf_dribble:I hope you are going to keep these 101 chihuahuas indoors the whole time in something unsuitable :whistling2:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

africa said:


> This proves what a good animal owner you are Colin :mf_dribble:I hope you are going to keep these 101 chihuahuas indoors the whole time in something unsuitable :whistling2:


:lol2:
I love you Sallie!


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

miss_ferret said:


> why is it? all animals where once wild, used to roaming huge open spaces, many of them are now kept in much smaller versions of that space (ie a cage or tank) in captivity. would you consider me cruel for keeping a barn owl in captivity? wild syrian hamsters roam miles in the wild, can this ever be recreated in a hamster cage? im sorry if this is going off topic but it irritates me that people go off on one about the conditions primates may be kept in in captivity just because there seen as 'more intellegent'. there are so many animals kept incorrectly, be this intentionally or unintentionally. im not getting at you but i dont understand why people think one species is more deserving than another.


It is irrelevant because you simply cannot keep a leopard gecko outdoors in the UK, it is too cold. There is no point slating me by bringing the species that I keep into this argument because the debate is surrounding the requirements of primates and they are obviously different to those of a gecko or as in your example, a hamster. 

You seem to have missed my point completely. I absolutely agree with you that it is impossible to recreate the natural habitat of any animal in captivity, you obviously have not read my previous posts in this thread. 

I was saying previously that an animal in captivity *does not* have the same requirements of an individual in the wild. For example, a captive Syrian hamster doesn't need to roam for miles foraging and looking for a mate etc, when it has an owner to supply food, and a mate if required. I was asking the question in my previous posts, whether it is entirely nessessary to attempt recreate every aspect of the animals' habitat and which aspects are more important than others?

For an animal of increased inteligence/cognition, however you want to describe it (which a primate is whether *you *like it or not!), the owner has a greater responsability to supply that individual with more mental stimulation to reduce the onset of mental illness. A hamster still has these requirements but because of the reduced level of cognitive ability displayed in rodents compared to primates, the type and complexity of said enrichment, is greatly reduced.

We have to put a stop to this idea that all animals are created equal, they are not! All animals display different levels of understanding, reliance upon instinct for survival, problem-solving etc. Of course all captive animals should be cared for in the proper way and provided with whatever it is they need to live out healthy lives but in terms of whether or not they need to made to feel at home (i.e. outdoors) this is another matter.

I doubt there is a scientifically proven way to determine how natural the animal's captive environment should be but perhaps it would be useful to relate the level of cognition in the animal to the amount of enrichment it requires. I am sure all animals would benefit most from being left in the wild (or maybe not at the rate that us humans are destroying most of it) but that would defeat the object of our fantastically rewarding hobby wouldn't it!

Slate me all you want for this but please do it in a constructive way, let's try and get some decent debate and sense out of this thread and stop all the bitching and nonesense. If you don't understand it then PM me, don't just unleash abuse. I have just tried to put some scientific thought into this debate and try and justify what has been said in the past.


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Twiglet said:


> I've stayed out of this so far as I know zip about primates and their husbandry bar what little experience I have from working with the pair we had at college.
> The above comment though has totally infuriated me. Do YOU keep animals?


I think if you read that poster's previous comments in the thread, it will become apparent that that comment has a hint of sarcasm attached.



Twiglet said:


> You are also not thinking about what you are saying. So it's ok to keep leos inside but not other animals? Natural goes out of the windew when keeping animals as you are of course well aware. If we wanted to replicate the wild we'd kill off a percentage of the resulting babies, not treat wounds and allow them to suppurate.
> I don't understand your way of thinking at all.


If you are going to quote me then please read my previous posts first because you will see that I have already made exactly that point, that "nature" doesn't not need to be and can not be recreated in captivity. 

My point surrounding keeping primates outdoors has a simple origin in this thread. A few of the first posters said that mormosets benefit from outdoor exposure in terms of enrichment by catching flies and bugs, fresh air and UV light. As I have no experience keeping primates, I took this information on board and presumed it was from reliable sources and that an outdoor enclosure was needed to raise healthy primates.

Whether the argument is about keeping primates outdoors or something completely different, such as keeping an angelfish in water of the correct pH to mimic it's natural habitat for example, it doesn't matter. My point was simply that if you are going to purchase an animal that you knowingly are not able to care for properly, then you should rethink the decision to buy that species and choose something you can provide the nessessary requirements for it to be healthy.


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

glidergirl said:


> Good post Twiglet!
> 
> Kwibezee, private keepers have a very high success rate breeding primates, a private keeper can give the animals something a zoo cannot and that's privacy (except when an animal is off show at a zoo of course). GOOD keepers of any species know their animals, they can give their animals more, quality time. Zoo keepers do a great job but they have a lot to do, and a lot of animals to care for and I find with all animals observation is the key. I love to watch my animals play and act as naturally as possible, grooming, foraging, eating, etc.
> 
> ...


Interesting post!


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

nickcradd067 said:


> It is irrelevant because you simply cannot keep a leopard gecko outdoors in the UK, it is too cold. There is no point slating me by bringing the species that I keep into this argument because the debate is surrounding the requirements of primates and they are obviously different to those of a gecko or as in your example, a hamster.
> 
> You seem to have missed my point completely. I absolutely agree with you that it is impossible to recreate the natural habitat of any animal in captivity, you obviously have not read my previous posts in this thread.
> 
> ...


All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others!

Sorry, I love that quote! : victory:


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Thanks for the introduction Colin:lol2:
> The probem with handreared animals is they imprint and that in itself causes problems.
> I have learnt through my many years of handrearing that once the animal starts to wean is the time to let it have some time with the same species so they learn about what they are and how they should behave.
> Imprinted animals have no bite inhibition, have no social skills and suffer from seperation anxiety which causes stress and this makes for a problematic and aggressive adult animal whatever the species.
> ...


With my experiance of hand rearing marmies amd reintroducing back with there own kind i wouldnt wait till they were weaned..We use a wire cage and it goes in the inside enclosure when not being fed..This lets the rest get there scent on the youngster and also get used to it..(even when its in the incubator) This tends to increase the success rate of them going back into the troop with little problems..But not always guaranteed as sometimes mum can take a dislike..Usually there is a reason,,,unknown to us..Igot this advice from an experianced keeper and gave it a try and wouldnt adopt any other method...Which really increases the workload when handrearing as it means going outside to the enclosures at every feed...Worth it when they go back though..


----------



## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> I think if you read that poster's previous comments in the thread, it will become apparent that that comment has a hint of sarcasm attached.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


why would it be benificial to let them catch their own prey, some insects are toxic, also how do you offer a balanced diet if you don't know whatthey've been catching for themselves



nickcradd067 said:


> It is irrelevant because you simply cannot keep a leopard gecko outdoors in the UK, it is too cold. There is no point slating me by bringing the species that I keep into this argument because the debate is surrounding the requirements of primates and they are obviously different to those of a gecko or as in your example, a hamster.
> 
> You seem to have missed my point completely. I absolutely agree with you that it is impossible to recreate the natural habitat of any animal in captivity, you obviously have not read my previous posts in this thread.
> 
> ...


you told zoo-man he shouldn't own marmies becuase he couldn't house them outside in his area which is too rough, maybe you shouldn't own leo's because you can't house them outside where it is too cold.


----------



## Alex (Jun 14, 2009)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> With my experiance of hand rearing marmies amd reintroducing back with there own kind i wouldnt wait till they were weaned..We use a wire cage and it goes in the inside enclosure when not being fed..This lets the rest get there scent on the youngster and also get used to it..(even when its in the incubator) This tends to increase the success rate of them going back into the troop with little problems..But not always guaranteed as sometimes mum can take a dislike..Usually there is a reason,,,unknown to us..Igot this advice from an experianced keeper and gave it a try and wouldnt adopt any other method...Which really increases the workload when handrearing as it means going outside to the enclosures at every feed...Worth it when they go back though..


What's the reasons for taking them away from the parents to hand rear them?


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Alex said:


> What's the reasons for taking them away from the parents to hand rear them?


Its not Peter who does that, its another member on here. He takes babies away from their parents to hand-rear them so they will be tame pets for buyers. :bash:


----------



## Alex (Jun 14, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Its not Peter who does that, its another member on here. He takes babies away from their parents to hand-rear them so they will be tame pets for buyers. :bash:


My bad, I wasn't saying he did I was asking because he had said this

'With my experiance of hand rearing marmies amd reintroducing back with there own kind i wouldnt wait till they were weaned'

Wasn't accusing anyone, I won't say my beliefs here because I know all too well what will happen. I just wanted to know the reason why they thought it was right, but that one word should have came to me....I don't know why it didn't......Money.


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> With my experiance of hand rearing marmies amd reintroducing back with there own kind i wouldnt wait till they were weaned..We use a wire cage and it goes in the inside enclosure when not being fed..This lets the rest get there scent on the youngster and also get used to it..(even when its in the incubator) This tends to increase the success rate of them going back into the troop with little problems..But not always guaranteed as sometimes mum can take a dislike..Usually there is a reason,,,unknown to us..Igot this advice from an experianced keeper and gave it a try and wouldnt adopt any other method...Which really increases the workload when handrearing as it means going outside to the enclosures at every feed...*Worth it when they go back though*..


 
I can imagine:2thumb: I still dont agree with people removing infants for handrearing just so they become imprinted


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Alex said:


> My bad, I wasn't saying he did I was asking because he had said this
> 
> 'With my experiance of hand rearing marmies amd reintroducing back with there own kind i wouldnt wait till they were weaned'
> 
> Wasn't accusing anyone, I won't say my beliefs here because I know all too well what will happen. I just wanted to know the reason why they thought it was right, but that one word should have came to me....I don't know why it didn't......*Money*.


Yep mate!


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Alex said:


> What's the reasons for taking them away from the parents to hand rear them?


Why would i be trying to reintroduce if i was removing to hand rear..
I would never remove for any reason to hand rear other than it being tottaly nessesary....:devil:


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I can imagine:2thumb: I still dont agree with people removing infants for handrearing just so they become imprinted


jUST TO CLEAR SOMETHING UP HERE..Ive posted plenty times on my views on hand rearing yet i get asked questions along the lines of why..
Maybe a back read would stop this..
Ido not hand rear unless its needed and i never have and never will hand rear to imprint to make a better pet for someone.
The method i posted previously is to get back to the troop which i stem to do...I do not remove any animals from the troop to sell,,,only if they are thrown out or something like that ,,then its nesseccary or it could and would be killed or die with stress.
I keep primates for my love of the species and not to make money..
HOPE THIS CLARIFIES FOR SOME PEOPLE...THANKS FOR THE BACK UP COLIN,,GLAD YOU TOOK THE TIME TO GET TO KNOW ME WITHOUT MACKING REDICULAS ACUSATIONS...FORGIVE MY SPELLING FOLKS(NO MORE POSTS ON MY BAD GRAMOUR ETC)


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> jUST TO CLEAR SOMETHING UP HERE..Ive posted plenty times on my views on hand rearing yet i get asked questions along the lines of why..
> Maybe a back read would stop this..
> Ido not hand rear unless its needed and i never have and never will hand rear to imprint to make a better pet for someone.
> The method i posted previously is to get back to the troop which i stem to do...I do not remove any animals from the troop to sell,,,only if they are thrown out or something like that ,,then its nesseccary or it could and would be killed or die with stress.
> ...


 

I didnt mean you at all, I know you dont handrear unless its needed or why would you bother re introducing them. I just meant in general that I dont agree handrearing infants to make imprinted pets. I hope that clears that comment up


----------



## Alex (Jun 14, 2009)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Why would i be trying to reintroduce if i was removing to hand rear..
> I would never remove for any reason to hand rear other than it being tottaly nessesary....:devil:


 Thanks for replying to my PM. I see we have sorted this out now, and that I quoted you, because you have been doing it for some time, and know what you are talking about : victory:


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

tomwilson said:


> why would it be benificial to let them catch their own prey, some insects are toxic, also how do you offer a balanced diet if you don't know whatthey've been catching for themselves


That's just what another marmoset keeper said on here. Would it not be more natural though for them to catch their own prey and learn to avoid bad tasting and toxic species? That's what happens in the wild. That was my understanding of it.



tomwilson said:


> you told zoo-man he shouldn't own marmies becuase he couldn't house them outside in his area which is too rough, maybe you shouldn't own leo's because you can't house them outside where it is too cold.


You're, yet again, missing my point entirely! Leopard geckos, like most other reptiles for that matter, do not need to be kept outdoors and live perfectly healthy lives in vivaria. You think this debate is about whether or not marmosets and other primates need to be kept outdoors, it is not!!! It is simply about providing them with the correct requirements that they need to live healthy and fulfilled lives. I was lead to believe by posters in this thread, that marmosets need to be housed outdoors and that they do not live healthy lives indoors.

I pleaded with everyone for some constructive and inteligent debate on here and yet the finger-pointing and abuse just keeps coming. By the sounds of it, everyone has different ideas about how to keep primates and apparently no-one does it correctly anyway judging by all the disagreement!


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> I pleaded with everyone for some constructive and inteligent debate on here and yet the finger-pointing and abuse just keeps coming. By the sounds of it, everyone has different ideas about how to keep primates and apparently no-one does it correctly anyway judging by all the disagreement!


the problem (as i understand it) is primates havnt been 'commonly' (ie not in zoos) kept for very long compared to other more common pets. as it is theres still a lot of tweaking/improvements/experimentation with housing, diet ect. some people believe keeping them one way is correct whereas someone else would think that the previous way of keeping them was wholely incorrect. it happens every time a new species becomes commonly available, tortoises are a good example. think how they were kept in the 60s compared to ideas on housing now.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

haha you do actually have a good point my excuse is I unfortunately dont have a camera yet... 

but it would be weird help i need help with a royle as an example


what temps e.t.c 

oh mr helper can i see a pic of your set up please just to clarify what your saying. lol it just wouldnt work i dont think haha


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Would totaly agree with your points nick,,
I have outdoor and indoor enclosures and believe it or not they do know the difference of what to,,and not to eat...They are like us they get out of the way of bees and wasps.Certain other creepy crawlies that they wont eat as well...

With regard to no one keeping them properly that could open up another can of worms..The person who started this attack,mostly on zooman and mat has never at anypoint answered anyone else,,just repeatedly attacked them...
I am personaly proud of my set up for my small primates..Ive been makeing enclosures for alot of years both for myself and some fellow keepers...including zoos we work with and infact advise about there small primates..
I would agree its got tottaly out of hand but i was also one that said THEN ALL ANIMALS SHOULD BE RELEASED BACK TO THE WILD AND SHOULDNT BE CAPTIVELY KEPT...
Its always a problem,especially when it comes to primates,,no one can understand why they are kept...Even when they are part of a breeding programme to help keep the species...
With regard to no one keeping them properly..
Most have good intentions and do the best they can with what they have..Mistakes will still be made as there are to many people that see them advertised and think buying a pair will get them a quick buck every six months...
In allot of years of keeping primates ,,i would say that there is more heartache than joy..
Babies born dead etc...
Which in my opinion makes the ones that survive even more special....So why sell? Let them stay with mum and dad and become a troop...Thats the natural thing that they do in the wild...
Removing for hand rearing to make a better pet...
Hand rearing is bad enough when it must be done ,,so why do it for no reason other than to please a customer...
This can never be justified..I never have and never would entertian such a suggestion..
There are many out there who look on them as a money macking venture and as long as there are people out there like that it will go on forever..
This is what should be stopped.
With regard to outside enclosures,,even us that do have the privelage of having outside enclosures would like them bigger etc...
The strange thing is that many years ago when we got our first monkey there was no one to turn to for help..
It took us many years to break into the circle,,that was the main reason that i joined this forum...
To try to help others who are now in a simmilar position...
During the time on the forrum have found very few who are genuine about primates...
Kept them for a few months and want to ram opinions down others...
I can even come across as very opinionated,,,but i would say im pationate about what i do..
We have been doing it for allot of years now...To the extent that other than martial arts(which i instruct and it doesnt cost me any money)all our time and effort goes into our animals and all our money..
Thats our choice though and we wouldnt have it any other way....
Constructive and inteligent debate can only come from those who are educated in what they are talking about..
Reading back over this post i would agree with you there arent many....
Edinburgh zoo small primate section and most others do have outside enclosures..
Glass which inhibits uv light,,so they use inside uv lighting to substitute...
Mostly because people cant read,,,DONT FEED THE ANIMALS..
This is the point about this post,,,it was an attack from word go and has got worse...
Im sorry you feel thet there arent any who keep them properly and will respect your opinion...you are intitled to one...
But i will sleep soundly tonight knowing that all of my troops are fit and healthy and well cared for....


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

miss_ferret said:


> the problem (as i understand it) is primates havnt been 'commonly' (ie not in zoos) kept for very long compared to other more common pets. as it is theres still a lot of tweaking/improvements/experimentation with housing, diet ect. some people believe keeping them one way is correct whereas someone else would think that the previous way of keeping them was wholely incorrect. it happens every time a new species becomes commonly available, tortoises are a good example. think how they were kept in the 60s compared to ideas on housing now.


Primates have been kept for many years now...
Primate keepers keep themselves to themselves because of to many opinionated people..
Also alot of private collections have been stollen over the years..(OBAN ZOO FOR EXAMPLE,, WHICH WAS A PRIVATE COLLECTION)
Also the fact that common marmies etc have become freely available is what has genarated the problem in the first place..
Its not the different ways of keeping,,ITS MONEY AND SELLING FREELY OF PRIMATES......


----------



## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> That's just what another marmoset keeper said on here. Would it not be more natural though for them to catch their own prey and learn to avoid bad tasting and toxic species? That's what happens in the wild. That was my understanding of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 i have read all the posts in this thread, and thetread that spawned it and as far as i am concerned this thread was just made as one big finger mainly pointed at some of the more experienced and caring members of this forum of which i count zoo-man among them


----------



## Candice Michelle (Apr 17, 2010)

*Yawn*


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Candice Michelle said:


> *Yawn*


Huh? :whistling2:


----------



## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Candice Michelle said:


> *Yawn*


Yeah I am with Zoo-man. If you don't have anything to conribute, just don't say anything.


----------



## lobob (Jul 19, 2010)

c'mon then Irwin lets see how you house yours!


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Candice Michelle said:


> *Yawn*


Why do people even bother to post comments like this..If it borres you then watch the telly...
An opinion would have been a better response rather than a chidish comment like you put...
Constuctive critism or a little bit of enteligence maybe..
I already know about my bad spelling so no silly comments please.....:devil:


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

lobob said:


> c'mon then Irwin lets see how you house yours!


You have no chance this guy justs wants to slate people and not stand up and be counted....


----------



## Para (Oct 31, 2010)

Irwin I agree with you This guy mat has had photos of his baby marmoset in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only with in twos- Para






irwin said:


> I have no gripe about people keeping primates if it is done properley
> 
> Alot of people on here jump on other peoples back ,when they are no better themselves
> 
> ...


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Para said:


> Irwin I agree with you This guy mat has had photos of his baby marmoset in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only with in twos- Para


You obviously aren't keeping up to date then are you? Matt has now got another Common Marmoset as a friend for his first! 

Also, how much do you think the RSPCA know about primates & their husbandry? I can tell you..................

diddly squat!


----------



## Para (Oct 31, 2010)

*Matt Worrell and him breaching of the Animal Act*

_*Irwin*_
_ I agree with you This guy Matt Worrell has had photos of his baby marmoset in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions that he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, _
_I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only if in twos- This Guy Matt is full of his own self importance thinking he know it all, he know nothing, I do not know anything about marmosets but my friend does and he is an RSPCA inspector, think I have a word with him next time he visits our farm, Worrell has no regards for the TRUE welfare of this baby marmoset he has purchased just what he wants . Para_


----------



## Shadowz (Aug 6, 2008)

Para said:


> _*Irwin*_
> _ I agree with you This guy Matt Worrell has had photos of his baby marmoset in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions that he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, _
> _I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only if in twos- This Guy Matt is full of his own self importance thinking he know it all, he know nothing, I do not know anything about marmosets but my friend does and he is an RSPCA inspector, think I have a word with him next time he visits our farm, Worrell has no regards for the TRUE welfare of this baby marmoset he has purchased just what he wants . Para_


So you just joined to slag off Matt then ?
Seeing u have made no other posts ?
At least keep up before you accuse people - had you kept up you would 
know that Matt has 2 marmosets :whip:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Para said:


> _*Irwin*_
> _I agree with you This guy Matt Worrell has had photos of his baby marmoset in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions that he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, _
> _I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only if in twos- *This Guy Matt is full of his own self importance thinking he know it all, he know nothing, I do not know anything about marmosets but my friend does and he is an RSPCA inspector, think I have a word with him next time he visits our farm, Worrell has no regards for the TRUE welfare of this baby marmoset he has purchased just what he wants* . Para_


Personal vendetta maybe? :whistling2:

If you do not know anything about Marmosets, what gives you the right to pass judgement & make comments? I do not know much about amphibians so I do not look in that section & do not advise or make comments about the keepers there. 

As I said, Matt now has 2 Marmosets, which is the way to keep these animals, he did a lot of research before obtaining his first Marmoset, & he has learnt a heck of a lot since.


----------



## Nile101 (Oct 22, 2010)

I have no idea about primates personally so I will not join in the debate, but has anyone not thought that this Para bloke is probably Irwin? I mean he joined this month and has 2 posts?


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Nile101 said:


> I have no idea about primates personally so I will not join in the debate, but has anyone not thought that this Para bloke is probably Irwin? I mean he joined this month and has 2 posts?


Aye, could well be!


----------



## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

I can assure you this new post is not from me.I have no vendetta against anyone,i was simply stating i do not agree with people keeping monkeys in their houses in parrot cages,and if i had my way it would be against the law to do so.


----------



## Nile101 (Oct 22, 2010)

irwin said:


> I can assure you this new post is not from me.I have no vendetta against anyone,i was simply stating i do not agree with people keeping monkeys in their houses in parrot cages,and if i had my way it would be against the law to do so.


Possibly not but I just noticed him go offline and you hop on, then you go offline and him hop on. Ah well.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Nile101 said:


> Possibly not but I just noticed him go offline and you hop on, then you go offline and him hop on. Ah well.


Yes, rather suspicious! tut tut naughty naughty! :lol2:


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

anyone else think its mildly ironic that its halloween and this thread has risen from the dead?


nope?


just me then :blush: :lol2:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

miss_ferret said:


> anyone else think its mildly ironic that its halloween and this thread has risen from the dead?
> 
> 
> nope?
> ...


:lol2:


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Para said:


> Irwin I agree with you This guy mat has had photos of his baby marmoset in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only with in twos- Para


Para, perhaps you should keep your impression to TOMMY COOPER or sumitt as like Zoo Man says about the SSPCA you are the same mate...YOU KNOW DIDLY SQUAT...
Why attack Mat.....????
Sometimes its not always freely availiable to get a pair of marmies....
He bought the first one with the intentions of getting a partner for it...
Most want unrellated pairs and its not always achievable unless you know allot of breaders...
Or get ripped off by these so called breaders that sell,sell sell....
I thought places like this forum were for people to learn from others,,seems theres alot of really young opinionated college graduates that look on a pc and think they know it all...Do you even keep or have you ever kept primates..
Probably not..
You know doupt fit in with the previous cattagory and have read a book or two.....
LEAVE PEOPLE LIKE MAT ALONE...
Irwin is exactly the same plenty shouting but cant stand up and be counted.
Ive asked several questions of you and you cant even answer...
You just want to pick on Matt,,Zoo man etc..
Ive got plenty of knolledge to give you a good damn run for your money and i think thats why you dont answer....
I know for a fact that Mat was waiting for the correct partner for his fiz and due to him taking his time ,,
When the time was right he got the perfect match...
Good on you mat and good on you zoo man..
If marmosets arent happy and secure they dont usually breed successfully..
Lovelly pics of your new youngsters Zoo Man and cant wait to see yours Matt..
Some people need to grow up and get a life.....


----------



## Para (Oct 31, 2010)

*Matt Worrell and him breaching of the Animal Act*

_*Irwin*_
_I agree with you this guy Matt Worrell has had photos of his baby *marmoset* in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions that he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, _
_I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only if in twos- This Guy Matt is full of his own self importance thinking he know it all, he know nothing, I do not know anything about marmosets but my friend does and he is an RSPCA inspector, think I have a word with him next time he visits our farm, Worrell has no regards for the TRUE welfare of this baby *marmoset* he has purchased just what he wants . Para_


----------



## Candice Michelle (Apr 17, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> yeah i am with zoo-man. If you don't have anything to conribute, just don't say anything.





peterarobertson said:


> why do people even bother to post comments like this..if it borres you then watch the telly...
> An opinion would have been a better response rather than a chidish comment like you put...
> Constuctive critism or a little bit of enteligence maybe..
> I already know about my bad spelling so no silly comments please.....:devil:





zoo-man said:


> huh? :whistling2:


*yawn*


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Para said:


> _*Irwin*_
> _I agree with you this guy Matt Worrell has had photos of his baby *marmoset* in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions that he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, _
> _I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only if in twos- This Guy Matt is full of his own self importance thinking he know it all, he know nothing, I do not know anything about marmosets but my friend does and he is an RSPCA inspector, think I have a word with him next time he visits our farm, Worrell has no regards for the TRUE welfare of this baby *marmoset* he has purchased just what he wants . Para_


Dont quite understand what highlighting marmoset in red means..This animal welfare act you are on about...
Any more that youve invented in your stupid little vendetta...Never heard so much crap in my life


----------



## Zober (Aug 24, 2010)

miss_ferret said:


> peter: im aware that this will come across as a criticism but its honestly not meant as one: please will you consider using paragraphs? im sure your responses are informative but i cant read large chunks of text very well.:blush:
> 
> as for the rest of this im with rum&coke and selina.



:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Zober said:


> :2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


if it hurts your eyes dont read it:bash:


----------



## Nile101 (Oct 22, 2010)

Wait Para/Irwin, have you been stalking him? As that's a little creepy mate.


----------



## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Arrg, you guys can argue!
Intereting thread though, very opinionated to say the least. I came by hoping to see nice pictures of marmie enclosures to be honest, I read it all though, I have no idea why!
I saw a lovely enclosure on another forum and was mildly interested in seeing more. 
I don't keep primates and have never even considered it realisticly, they are cute and I'm sure they are fascinating if you have a big group in a very large enclosure; but do you see any of their natural behaviour when they are kept in a cage or on their own? How do they act? I know I love to see monkeys climbing high in trees and leaping really far and stuff, don't primates kept indoors just wreck the place? Do yours have a room in which they stay all the time zoo-man? are they handled or do you just sort of watch? 
I'm not getting at anyone, I'm interested in what the reason was in you getting one? From me thinking thats cute but shouldn't be a pet, to you thinking 'i want one/some' 
Maybe I'm a hypocrit as I have pets myself or maybe I'm just looking for a reason to justify me getting a marm! 
Also what do you have in the enclosures to provide enrichment? trees and ledges and what not? 

As people are so opinionated on what is good and what is not, can I be told what they have in their enclosures? or is everyone just not going to say because that irwin guy was such an ass in the way he asked?

I'm not trying to start a fight and I don't want people saying I had no right commenting because I don't own them, I'm someone who came across the post and is now genuinely interested in the keeping of such amazing creatures. Are they really 'pets' or are they more for show/entertainment. I mean I've seen people that keep primates and dress them up like kids, they sit on their shoulder, they go shopping with them and they have a little leash and it's their 'best friend'. There's also the type of person who roof off their garden and has 20 marms and just chucks food in and observes their behaviour. Where on that scale do you place yourself? (not directed at anyone in particular, would like all that have them to answer)


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

em_40 said:


> Arrg, you guys can argue!
> Intereting thread though, very opinionated to say the least. I came by hoping to see nice pictures of marmie enclosures to be honest, I read it all though, I have no idea why!
> I saw a lovely enclosure on another forum and was mildly interested in seeing more.
> I don't keep primates and have never even considered it realisticly, they are cute and I'm sure they are fascinating if you have a big group in a very large enclosure; but do you see any of their natural behaviour when they are kept in a cage or on their own? How do they act? I know I love to see monkeys climbing high in trees and leaping really far and stuff, don't primates kept indoors just wreck the place? Do yours have a room in which they stay all the time zoo-man? are they handled or do you just sort of watch?
> ...


I'm not a private keeper, but here are some enclosures from my work that could be replicated by the private keeper. Our college animal unit is fully zoo licensed and would consider ourselves towards the 'chuck food in and observe' end of the scale (though habituation to keepers and target training are essential for many aspects of husbandry)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/exotic-mammals/599276-callitrichids.html


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

em_40 said:


> Arrg, you guys can argue!
> Intereting thread though, very opinionated to say the least. I came by hoping to see nice pictures of marmie enclosures to be honest, I read it all though, I have no idea why!
> I saw a lovely enclosure on another forum and was mildly interested in seeing more.
> I don't keep primates and have never even considered it realisticly, they are cute and I'm sure they are fascinating if you have a big group in a very large enclosure; but do you see any of their natural behaviour when they are kept in a cage or on their own? How do they act? I know I love to see monkeys climbing high in trees and leaping really far and stuff, don't primates kept indoors just wreck the place? Do yours have a room in which they stay all the time zoo-man? are they handled or do you just sort of watch?
> ...


My marmosets are not handled, as they are not that tame. They will take food from my hand, but thats about it. I do not try to get them used to being held, as I am happy that they behave naturally, but are steady enough with me that they will take food from me. They are in their enclosure all the time, as if I let the out, I would have to stress them out by catching them again to put them away. The enclosure is big enough for them, & has branches, ropes, swings, puzzle feeders, toys & substrate they can forage in.


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Thread cleaned.

Please keep this civil folks.

Cheers

Andy


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

Right, where to start!!

Para if you got personal issues with me, which I can't see that you would as I don't even know you then why not be a little grown up about it and pm me and get to know me before shouting your mouth off?! 

The pictures of fizz in my living room are from when she was a tiny baby. She was handreared as she was a triplet and it is common that parents cannot successfully raise 3 healthy babies. As she was handreared and very young she was very 'clingy' and wanted to be with me alot. 

As a number of people have said if you were bothered to read my thread and see the updates you would have seen that she is very happily paired with EB a parent reared marmoset and she is learning so much from him. I wanted her paired with a parent reared male for exactly this reason. It would have been easy for me to get another handreared marmoset but what good would that have done? They would have no clue in how to raise thier young and the stress and trauma from this would be emence and unnessasary and would have just fuelled the sell sell sell type breeders. 

As far as the RSPCA threats go, all I can say is bring it on!! Being fairly heavily involved with the RSPCA myself and the connections and inspectors I know, I can say you won't get far!! 
And as said from what I have learnt and the knowledge I know I will happily talk to anyone from the RSPCA that wants to come and talk to me about the care of them. 

Now....

On another note, I do hope that para is banned and or at least given an infraction!! Threatening behaviour, personal attacks, and bad language.... The list goes on.....

One more thing, I do know peter and I have met him in person..... Personally if you want to go meet him, all I can say is good luck, that man is a fountain of knowledge and he will, pardon the phrase, tear you a new **** hole!! Lol.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

bothrops said:


> Thread cleaned.
> 
> Please keep this civil folks.
> 
> ...


Thanks Andy : victory:


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

To Irwin & Para, if you guys are so against the keeping of primates as living room ornaments in parrot cages, why not put your efforts into a more deserving cause, such as the place mentioned in thsi thread http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/exotic-mammals/594869-what-do-people-think-about.html? Read my posts about the information I was given when I went to this place & posed as a possible buyer!


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Thanks Andy : victory:


Think it needs a bit more than cleaned..This guy blatently threatened me????


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Think it needs a bit more than cleaned..This guy blatently threatened me????


I agree Peter, he should be banned! Ideally tarred & feathered, but I'd settle for him being banned!


----------



## Nile101 (Oct 22, 2010)

Meh I reckon that post should of been kept, made me laugh. Another keyboard warrior thinking he's hard dealing out threats.


----------



## africa (Sep 12, 2008)

Para said:


> _*Irwin*_
> _I agree with you this guy Matt Worrell has had photos of his baby *marmoset* in his front room posted on different websites, he keeps it on its own with no other mamrmoset, I was under the impression under the animal welfare act they must be able to have a social life this guy Matt Worreell is in breach of this act and the RSPCA should be notified about the conditions that he keep this single baby in his front room, keep up the good work Iwin, _
> _I would not get a monkey unless I could keep it in the right conditions and only if in twos- This Guy Matt is full of his own self importance thinking he know it all, he know nothing, I do not know anything about marmosets but my friend does and he is an RSPCA inspector, think I have a word with him next time he visits our farm, Worrell has no regards for the TRUE welfare of this baby *marmoset* he has purchased just what he wants . Para_


You have a nerve, you have hardly ever posted on this forum yet you come on flexing your computer keys .....you clearly have not read all the posts...go away and come back when you have something valuable to say and leave your threats behind..........yawn....bore


----------



## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

africa said:


> You have a nerve, you have hardly ever posted on this forum yet you come on flexing your computer keys .....you clearly have not read all the posts...go away and come back when you have something valuable to say and leave your threats behind..........yawn....bore


Go Sallie, Go Sallie, Go Sallie, Go !!!!

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Best Wishes

Neil & Debra


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

kodakira said:


> Go Sallie, Go Sallie, Go Sallie, Go !!!!
> 
> :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> 
> ...


The funny thing i find about it all Neil is saying he knew me..If he did he would know i have 2 passions in life..
First is our primates as you already know.
Second is teaching martial arts which ive studied for 15yrs and hold dan grades in 2 different types of ju jitsu..
Have my own clubs and my main hate in life is BULLIES....
Just thought id share that as it all seems a bit strange,think they were the same person....: victory:


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> I agree Peter, he should be banned! Ideally tarred & feathered, but I'd settle for him being banned!


Slightly off topic, but you advised people to become hunt sabs recently and to join LACS (League against cruel sports). As I'm (_not really_) sure you know how this organisation came about and who it was founded by, I was pretty shocked that you suggested this as a pet monkey keeper, especially seeing as it's board of directors are against keeping exotic pets. Particularly the intelligent sort in an unnatural environment. 

I just hope you can see the irony and contradiction in your views.

All the best.


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Slightly off topic, but you advised people to become hunt sabs recently and to join LACS (League against cruel sports). As I'm (_not really_) sure you know how this organisation came about and who it was founded by, I was pretty shocked that you suggested this as a pet monkey keeper, especially seeing as it's board of directors are against keeping exotic pets. Particularly the intelligent sort in an unnatural environment.
> 
> I just hope you can see the irony and contradiction in your views.
> 
> All the best.


Been here before but i dont refer to my primates as pets..
Is this guy against the keeping of small primates or against them being kept as pets...
There is a vast difference in my opinion....
ENCLOSURES are what keepers house them in whether it be inside or out.
Pets are what i would imagine would be the ones that are kept singular in a parrot cage getting tummys rubbed and never getting out.
Dont want to stirr up the same argument again(pet) im really interested in what this guys definition of pet is....


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Been here before but i dont refer to my primates as pets..
> Is this guy against the keeping of small primates or against them being kept as pets...
> There is a vast difference in my opinion....
> ENCLOSURES are what keepers house them in whether it be inside or out.
> ...


 
Yawn....

I'm more interested in peoples perceptions of animal keeping and the associated morality. Zoo Man will understand as he made the original post. TTFN.


----------



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Yawn....
> 
> I'm more interested in peoples perceptions of animal keeping and the associated morality. Zoo Man will understand as he made the original post. TTFN.


Sorry pal ill just read and shut up then..:gasp::gasp::gasp:


----------



## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Slightly off topic, but you advised people to become hunt sabs recently and to join LACS (League against cruel sports). As I'm (_not really_) sure you know how this organisation came about and who it was founded by, I was pretty shocked that you suggested this as a pet monkey keeper, especially seeing as it's board of directors are against keeping exotic pets. Particularly the intelligent sort in an unnatural environment.
> 
> I just hope you can see the irony and contradiction in your views.
> 
> All the best.


Where is the irony or contradiction in an animal getting ripped to bits by dogs and keeping a primate in an enclosure.


----------



## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

ignore mynki, the thread in question has been locked so they are obviously bored and looking to make trouble elsewhere 

the amount of idiocy from some members on this thread has stunned me...its ok to keep a gecko in a box made of wood or plastic but no matter the size of the enclosure primates should live outside. yeah ok 

and as for the person who said that syrians dont need to roam for miles looking for food and mates it doesnt mean they dont still have the energy to burn, i have one who from sunset to sunrise is on the go 

the proof is in the pudding with zoo man and peters primates as far as i am concerned as both have succesfully and happily bred, such intelligent and sensitive animals would not do so if they werent happy 

natural sometimes isnt always best, if that were the case my rats would be chowing down on leftover maccy d's and kfc rather than the carefully thought out nutrionally balanced food they get. 

anyone who has a problem with keeping a marmoset inside even though everything else is exemplary should be on the way to pakistan to catch some natural bugs for their leos , or austrailia to get the correct greens for their beardie...perhaps the native small animals from where their snake originates from instead of all white ones massbred


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

ami_j said:


> ignore mynki, the thread in question has been locked so they are obviously bored and looking to make trouble elsewhere
> 
> the amount of idiocy from some members on this thread has stunned me...its ok to keep a gecko in a box made of wood or plastic but no matter the size of the enclosure primates should live outside. yeah ok
> 
> ...


 
I agree with everything you have just said, except for the highlighted bit. It is a bit of a myth that unhappy animals won't breed I'm afraid and 'it breeds = its happy' is often spouted by people who breed animals in appauling conditions (think puppy farms for example).

I will share the following link, though it may open a whole new can of worms. This video is made by BUAV and my feelings on many extremist groups have been discussed before - especially when media, marketing, propaganda and lies are used in varying proportions - BUT this video shows clearly that the animals in the video are kept in grossly inadequate housing and yet are 'breeding' (and quite prolifically too).....

viewer discretion advised for a plethora of reasons

YouTube - BUAV TV: Monkey Business (inside the world's biggest monkey factory farm)


(p.s. I'm not implying for a second that either anyone on this thread don't have happy primates, primates shouldn't be kept or breed in captivity or that you said what you did for anything other than genuinely supportive and thoughtful reasons, but I often see the arguement used by disgraceful keepers and feel the myth needs dispelling!:2thumb


----------



## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Mynki said:


> Slightly off topic, but you advised people to become hunt sabs recently and to join LACS (League against cruel sports). As I'm (_not really_) sure you know how this organisation came about and who it was founded by, I was pretty shocked that you suggested this as a pet monkey keeper, especially seeing as it's board of directors are against keeping exotic pets. Particularly the intelligent sort in an unnatural environment.
> 
> I just hope you can see the irony and contradiction in your views.
> 
> All the best.


slightly off topic mynki it was a completely different thread, and was locked for a reason because it had gone off topic, am i to assume collin has been added to your list of people to hound along with mark B then

and to get back on topic i will now click the link bothrops has left


----------



## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

bothrops said:


> I agree with everything you have just said, except for the highlighted bit. It is a bit of a myth that unhappy animals won't breed I'm afraid and 'it breeds = its happy' is often spouted by people who breed animals in appauling conditions (think puppy farms for example).
> 
> I will share the following link, though it may open a whole new can of worms. This video is made by BUAV and my feelings on many extremist groups have been discussed before - especially when media, marketing, propaganda and lies are used in varying proportions - BUT this video shows clearly that the animals in the video are kept in grossly inadequate housing and yet are 'breeding' (and quite prolifically too).....
> 
> ...


no that is a fair point , but some species wouldnt breed in bad conditions and i would assume that primates would be one of them


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

ami_j said:


> no that is a fair point , but some species wouldnt breed in bad conditions and i would assume that primates would be one of them


Some species wouldn't you are correct, however I specifically picked that link to indicate that some primates WILL breed in suboptimal conditions (whereas some snakes won't breed unless conditions are absolutely perfect (and many snakes and primates and everything in between have NEVER been bred in captivity at all))....I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't possible to say 'well kept = will breed or poorly kept = won't breed' statements for any particular group.


That said, well kept primates are probably much more likely to breed _and sucessfully raise their young alone _(which would back up your original point about Peter and Colin knowing what they are doing!: victory::2thumb


----------



## mat_worrell (Sep 20, 2009)

That video is truely shocking!!


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> Slightly off topic, but you advised people to become hunt sabs recently and to join LACS (League against cruel sports). As I'm (_not really_) sure you know how this organisation came about and who it was founded by, I was pretty shocked that you suggested this as a pet monkey keeper, especially seeing as it's board of directors are against keeping exotic pets. Particularly the intelligent sort in an unnatural environment.
> 
> I just hope you can see the irony and contradiction in your views.
> 
> All the best.


I still stand by my views in the now closed thread in Off Topic. And like I said in that thread, but never got answered, what has me having Marmosets got to do with the League Against Cruel Sports? My Marmosets are not hunted, therefore it has nothing to do with whether I am a hunt sab or not, or support the LACS.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

kodakira said:


> Where is the irony or contradiction in an animal getting ripped to bits by dogs and keeping a primate in an enclosure.


:notworthy: Here here Neil!


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

tomwilson said:


> slightly off topic mynki it was a completely different thread, and was locked for a reason because it had gone off topic, *am i to assume collin has been added to your list of people to hound along with mark B then*
> 
> and to get back on topic i will now click the link bothrops has left


Ooo, that makes me feel special Tom! :flrt:


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> I still stand by my views in the now closed thread in Off Topic. And like I said in that thread, but never got answered, what has me having Marmosets got to do with the League Against Cruel Sports? My Marmosets are not hunted, therefore it has nothing to do with whether I am a hunt sab or not, or support the LACS.


The irony is that LACS board are against captive animals. You'll understand why I dislike LACS, PETA and APA I'm sure. I know how controversial primate keeping is (And for the record I'm not against private individuals keeping anything if done correctly as long as as it's not an endangered species that could be better used in a breeding programme). 

They stem from extreme RSPCA members who found he RSPCA to be too mainstream and not aggresive enough which is why I suggested you got their views by writing to them rather than taking my word for it as their campaigns are focussed on matters other than pet keeping publically. So I find it bizarre how you suggest joining an organisation that is at odds with your own controversial hobby. Thats the irony. It's not a dig, I have a genuine interest in the propaganda published by LACS etc and am genuinely interestedd why you'd support such an organisation.

Ignore Tom Wilson, it's been noted that if you disagree with someone you immediately dislike or hound them. Hopefully he'll realise one day that you can dislike someones opinion whilst not disliking the person. 

Hopefully the other people struggling to see the irony of your position will understand now. Again, if you're in any doubt email them asking about their thoughts on captive exotics.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mynki said:


> The irony is that LACS board are against captive animals. You'll understand why I dislike LACS, PETA and APA I'm sure. I know how controversial primate keeping is (And for the record I'm not against private individuals keeping anything if done correctly as long as as it's not an endangered species that could be better used in a breeding programme).
> 
> They stem from extreme RSPCA members who found he RSPCA to be too mainstream and not aggresive enough which is why I suggested you got their views by writing to them rather than taking my word for it as their campaigns are focussed on matters other than pet keeping publically. So I find it bizarre how you suggest joining an organisation that is at odds with your own controversial hobby. Thats the irony. It's not a dig, I have a genuine interest in the propaganda published by LACS etc and am genuinely interestedd why you'd support such an organisation.
> 
> ...


I am not actually a member of the LACS nor a hunt sab, I only mentioned it on that stag thread as it was relevant to the topic. I do agree with what the LACS campaign against though (hunting, etc), but as they do not publicly disagree with private exotics keepers, I can only wonder why they do not openly campaign against it.


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> I am not actually a member of the LACS nor a hunt sab, I only mentioned it on that stag thread as it was relevant to the topic. I do agree with what the LACS campaign against though (hunting, etc), but as they do not publicly disagree with private exotics keepers, I can only wonder why they do not openly campaign against it.


The clue is in their name. Every anti organisation has it's own budget and it's own agenda. Hence me telling you to investigate the people behind LACS independantly rather than taking my word for it. There are plenty of people out there disgusted by the selfish actions of exotic pet keeping also. Know your enemy.


----------



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I take it Irwin & Para are now concentrating their efforts on Aquamania in Blackburn, from the link I posted earlier in the thread! :whistling2:


----------

