# rodent farms



## fantapants

i posted this thread in general reptile chat but nobody is replying. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/439034-rodent-farms-they-governed.html basicaly all i want to know is are rodent farms governed? petshops have a license issued by the council so what about feeder breeders? and do they have to follow guidelines/protocols on culling them or freezing them etc.


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## buddah

im not sure, i thought this my self and i hope they would be. for both reptile and rodent.


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## KJ Exotics

Yes they are, i think it is the Animal By-Products Regulations, though dont hold me to that.


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## LFBP-NEIL

No they aren't there is no specific legislation to cover rodent production other than animal welfare guidlines the same as any other farmed animal. Once the rodents are dead and frozen then animal by product regs have to be adhered to, but there is no licence for producing rodents, we simply stock ours to petshop stocking density guidlines, have animal welfare policies in place and we are registered with DEFRA as a business and also registered as a animal by product producer / processor, we have been inspected by defra officials and we also get the vet to do a yearly inspection (not because we have to - because we want to). So although there isnt a specific "rodent producer" licence - defra do take an interest in whats going on and do some round to make sure everythings ok, and the rodents are produced to almost the same standards as human grade food.


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## KathyM

Sadly, in most large scale rodent breeding establishments, rodents are not bred to decent standards and are kept appaulingly. This is also true of many small scale breeders breeding for snake food. 

While I have no confidence in petshop licences as long as the councils have a vested interest in passing their inspections, I find it really sad that rodent farms are not regulated in any way. 

This is why I urge people not to buy their snake food from them. If you could see the photos I've seen of rats crammed into lab cages, I don't understand why even rodent haters would feed their snakes animals kept in such pants standards - it can't make for a decent snake diet.


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## fantapants

LFBP-NEIL said:


> No they aren't there is no specific legislation to cover rodent production other than animal welfare guidlines the same as any other farmed animal. Once the rodents are dead and frozen then animal by product regs have to be adhered to, but there is no licence for producing rodents, we simply stock ours to petshop stocking density guidlines, have animal welfare policies in place and we are registered with DEFRA as a business and also registered as a animal by product producer / processor, we have been inspected by defra officials and we also get the vet to do a yearly inspection (not because we have to - because we want to). So although there isnt a specific "rodent producer" licence - defra do take an interest in whats going on and do some round to make sure everythings ok, and the rodents are produced to almost the same standards as human grade food.


so technicaly........anybody could get a bunch of cages, breed and kill rodents ( in any way they see fit) and then sell the rodents aslong as they treat the dead rodents in accordance to DEFRAS animal by product regulations?:gasp:


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## Prem Morph

I keep and breed 2000 rats and about 3000 mice and I have a pet shop licence but I contacted my local EHO and asked what he wanted from me when I set up the business and worked closely with him and he often pops in for a brew I get a vet inspection every 5 years and the EHO one every time I renew my licence


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## LFBP-NEIL

> so technicaly........anybody could get a bunch of cages, breed and kill rodents ( in any way they see fit) and then sell the rodents aslong as they treat the dead rodents in accordance to DEFRAS animal by product regulations?:gasp:


yes and No, first you need to have planning permission from the council as thousands of rodents produce a lot of waste, If you are farming/keeping an animal you have to provide it with correct animal welfare - or else you are guilty of breaking the animal welfare act. 

so technically yes thats all you have to do but there are a lot of hurdles to jump over first. Defra are not exactly the easiest people to please for example we have to keep cleaning records of when the rodent rooms are cleaned, what pest control we have in place, sterilisation of cages, freezer logs, a comlete paper trail from rodents produced to the end customer, 

There are no specific welfare guidlines for farming rodents in this country - but there are hardly any rodent farms in this country most come from eastern europe or america. 

When Defra visit us they are keen to see how we decide what is an acceptable welfare standard for the rodents and like i previously mentioned we stock our rodents to the pet shop licence standards and also keep them to these welfare standards, this is inspected by independent vet.

The rodents have to be culled humanely or else you are causing an animal unneccessary suffering which is against animal welfare law, current humane methods are cervical dislocation or gassing - no rodent producer uses the first method (too messy, too time consuming).

so the real answer is no you cannot keep the rodents in anyway they see fit - as you must provide for their welfare. 

you may not kill a farmed rodent in anyway you see fit - as it legally must be done humanely. 

there is probably not a specific guidline on rodent farming as all the points are covered under other pieces of legislation - more details can be seen here Defra, UK - Animal health and welfare - Animal welfare - On farm


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## LFBP-NEIL

KathyM said:


> Sadly, in most large scale rodent breeding establishments, rodents are not bred to decent standards and are kept appaulingly. This is also true of many small scale breeders breeding for snake food.
> 
> While I have no confidence in petshop licences as long as the councils have a vested interest in passing their inspections, I find it really sad that rodent farms are not regulated in any way.
> 
> This is why I urge people not to buy their snake food from them. If you could see the photos I've seen of rats crammed into lab cages, I don't understand why even rodent haters would feed their snakes animals kept in such pants standards - it can't make for a decent snake diet.


you should visit ours you might be suprised, although we do use breeder racks we give as much room as practical, the rats dont get as much freedom as they would in a large pet rat style cage,, but they are kept warm, clean, constantly fed and watered, given things such as papers, cardboard, wood to chew and nest with and they breed readily. but these are farmed animals not pets and rarely live longer than 9 months.


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## fantapants

Neil, thank you. thats really helped me alot. i wont say its put my mind at rest but at least i know that there has to be some level of care involved. and i hat eto think just how much waste a famr produces. i have twelve rat cages and go through 4 binbags full of waste a week. they go to the local compost centre but thousands of rats......eek!

just out of curiosity, how many rats a week do LFBP produce? what sort of % would you say that you have of the uk market or is it just for your own reptiles?


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## LFBP-NEIL

heres some figures...

28,000 kilos of rodent meat were imported into the uk in 2008 (roughly 30 tons!) these represented 80% of the UK market* 

making the total market in 2008 35,000 kg of rodents


we only produce a couple of thousand rodents each week so we produce approximately 50kg of rodents each week, (2600 kg yearly) so based on 2008 figures its roughly 7.5% of the UK market, but its probably realistically a lot lot less than that! as no one collates information on how many rodents the uk producers sell, its only the imports that get recorded and the 80% is only an estimate.

another interesting figure - our rodents consume 500kg of food each week!






*(figures from here http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/monitoring/documents/salmonella-typhimurium-090624.pdf)


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## fantapants

LFBP-NEIL said:


> heres some figures...
> 
> 28,000 kilos of rodent meat were imported into the uk in 2008 (roughly 30 tons!) these represented 80% of the UK market*
> 
> making the total market in 2008 35,000 kg of rodents
> 
> 
> we only produce a couple of thousand rodents each week so we produce approximately 50kg of rodents each week, (2600 kg yearly) so based on 2008 figures its roughly 7.5% of the UK market, but its probably realistically a lot lot less than that! as no one collates information on how many rodents the uk producers sell, its only the imports that get recorded and the 80% is only an estimate.
> 
> another interesting figure - our rodents consume 500kg of food each week!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(figures from here http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/monitoring/documents/salmonella-typhimurium-090624.pdf)


 
wow! thanks for that.


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## KathyM

LFBP-NEIL said:


> you should visit ours you might be suprised, although we do use breeder racks we give as much room as practical, the rats dont get as much freedom as they would in a large pet rat style cage,, but they are kept warm, clean, constantly fed and watered, given things such as papers, cardboard, wood to chew and nest with and they breed readily. but these are farmed animals not pets and rarely live longer than 9 months.


I can imagine that's a lot better than most rodent farms, but I don't think an animal's needs change when it becomes a pet - the species needs are the same and lab cages used in many establishments do not provide anywhere near suitable accomodation for rats. I'm not against their use for the first week after birthing, the larger ones I've seen used are pretty good size for this (although I've heard of quite a proportionately large amount of extremity injuries from the wire portion's join with the plastic), but as lifetime housing they are just not suitable. You don't say if you use these, that's just my personal view on their common usage as permanent housing in the feeder circles. 

I think you and I have nattered about animal welfare before so really do rate your experience, but to me it's like battery farming - the quality you get depends on the care of the animal - and if an animal (when not culled to feed) is only living a third of it's normal lifespan something is wrong? Is it possible that these rats have health issues that would make them less desirable as food for snakes? I don't know. I suppose it's much harder to select good animals when you're culling most for food and it's a grey area to me, no judgements being made there. 

Regardless of whether people have a "thing" for rodents because they have them as pets, or whether someone has a snake they value enough to feed it properly (and I know this is something you believe in having talked to you before about it), it doesn't make a difference. Putting it very basically you get out what you put in, and what you get out of mass breeding in cramped conditions on a budget diet (which is what most people breeding for feeding are doing), is truly crap snake food, regardless of whether you or I think it's right or wrong. :2thumb:


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## LFBP-NEIL

just to clear a point up, they only live for about nine months as thats the age when we cull them, we breed them, pick out the best ones to carry on the breeding lines with, breed from them and then before they get too old its their turn to enter the food chain, in fact we very rarely have any of them die of natural causes - thye simply dont get to live that long. I know it sounds horrible talking about a living creature flippantly like this but they are essentially farmed animals for food. 

It is very much like battery farming, unfortunatley it needs to be a very fine balance between profitability and exceeding minimum welfare, obviously it would be great to use really large cages such as the rodent towers etc, but realistically that would make a frozen rodent very expensive, but then at the other end of the scale some breeders (private and commercial) use the smallest sized breeding cages which is about the same length as a rat and can barely turn round just to get more into their space, 

we use an MB2 cage which measures 54.5 x 39.5 x 20cm, in these we stock 3 rats, 2 female & 1 male. It allows enough room for the rats to stand on hind legs they have enough room to create a nest and have room to roam the cage, the females share nursing duties, the only thing they are lacking is the room to go off and explore, i spend a lot of time observing the rats and if they are not asleep, they are either nursing their young, nesting, feeding or drinking. by maintaining a 1m to 2f ratio theres no fighting, the males are quite protective of their little harem and pups! the babies stay in with mum until they are weaned and then moved onto their own enclosure until they reach the appropriate size for culling. I havent observed any signs of distress from being kept in these size cages and i personally believe they would only go exploring or foraging if looking for food - which they have on tap. 

The design of the cage is important, you have a gnaw proof very strong industrial plastic base, that can withstand being autoclaved and bashed about when cleaning, with a mesh lid - the lids fit tightly to prevent any thing getting caught anywhere, and also before you use a new cage you should examine the mesh to make sure there are no pinch points in wire where a rodent could get a toe trapped - if there is you just widen the gap in the mesh with a screwdriver. If any rodents are losing extremities through use of the cages its because they were not examined thoroughly before being put into use. 

I dont think we can say that it can be as simple as commercial vs home producing = Bad vs good though as i have seen some home made racks on this forum that make me shudder! - no ventilation, soft plastics, materials that cant be easily cleaned etc etc. 

Heres a pic of a bit of our rodent room...


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## KathyM

I think to be honest even with the best intentions rodent farms cannot provide what is necessary for animal welfare at my standards, even yours. It's possible that decent standards are impossible to achieve commercially, like you said, which is why I won't pay for mice/rats from rodent farms if I can help it (and that doesn't always work out for me, but I try!). Speaking as diplomatically as possible, those pictures do not show decent living conditions for the animals, they are cleaner and slightly larger than many I've seen but it doesn't make them good enough.


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## LisaLQ

What sized conditions are the mice in?

I think this has just confirmed to me that I need to breed my own, and why my pet shop frozen mice are so sickly looking - if the rat enclosures are smaller than I'd keep mice in.

I like to think I'm not as fluffy as most pet rodent owners, but the measurements and pictures have really shocked me. And the thought of a doe being kept in with a male with no break....that to me is animal cruelty.

I guess it's just how some people see rodents though.

Edited to add - one average, what age do the males and females go in together, and how many litters does she have before she's killed? Mice and rats.


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## Athravan

I'd like to see pet- quality sized housing for rodents, give them the highest quality of life in their short & productive lives. I'd like to see all chickens in the UK free range too, but that's never going to happen. The price difference in a free range, organic chicken is almost double that of a supermarket produced bird for the same size. Realistically how many UK shops & breeders would be able to support their livelihoods and hobbies if feeding costs doubled. I spend £200 a month on rats for my private, hobby - that's my snakes I keep at home, and make no profit from. Doubling that would push my snakes outside my budget. There are no organic, free range style rodent farms in the UK - because there is no demand for it. There aren't enough snake keepers out there who care that highly about the rats having absolute highest standard pet quality life, who would make up enough demand for any supplier to change the space they use for rats. At the end of the day, a rat cage sold by pets at home for a trio of adult rats is probably some 10 times bigger than a breeding rack cage, and that sort of space is simply not economical.

If enough breeders in the UK genuinely were willing to pay the massively higher prices to be assured of the high amount of space a feeder rodent was given, I'm sure there are rodent suppliers out there who would love to meet that demand, but it's just not there. If anything blame all the breeders and keepers who don't care enough to take a stand to make a difference, don't blame a supplier who does their best to breed animals in the best conditions that still allows them to sell at a competitive price

Most people want things cheap, and they don't want to think too much about where that item came from. Whether it's food for their animals, a chicken for sunday roast, eggs for breakfast, pork for dinner or the leather jacket they wear. Society uses animals and discards them, welfare will never be the priority concern, producing an economical item will be. I can't see "luxury mice" taking off way tesco's "finest" brand of high quality organic or farm raised meats has for example!

Considering the bulk of rodents are bred in eastern europe, paying a pittance of a wage to employees and a negligable running cost compared to here, the upside is at least in the UK there are far more regulations regarding animal welfare than many countries around the world, and those companies that do try to produce and meet the UK's standards are providing wages and taxes back into the ailing british economy, something we could use far more of right now.

If welfare standards were increased, it would simply put the british producers out of business, because the costs would be too high to compete with the farms outside the country, and the demand for a cheaper product would still be far far higher than a demand for a highly regulated, but very expensive one.

I have visited rodent farms in the UK and I will say that no, they don't live like the rats running in their wheels in their nero deluxe and jenny cages behind me - but it's not cruelty either. Enough space to exercise and stay in condition, adequate food supply, fresh water and clean living conditions is probably the best that the majority of animals that are bred commercially to die can hope for, and a damn sight better than the way animals are treated in many other countries.


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## Prem Morph

KathyM said:


> I think to be honest even with the best intentions rodent farms cannot provide what is necessary for animal welfare at my standards, even yours. It's possible that decent standards are impossible to achieve commercially, like you said, which is why I won't pay for mice/rats from rodent farms if I can help it (and that doesn't always work out for me, but I try!). Speaking as diplomatically as possible, those pictures do not show decent living conditions for the animals, they are cleaner and slightly larger than many I've seen but it doesn't make them good enough.


As you say it is very difficult to balance welfare and profit premises are expensive to run caging is expensive and food if you use proper rodent food costs up to £450 a tonne I try my best to provide the best for my rats I find that they produce well with average litters raised being 12-16.
I use Lab style cages for colony cages Rc2 or old Rc4 these are high top cages I move females when they are heavily pregnant to To freedom breeder cages and house a maximum of 2 females per cage I use "R3-CK-W" cages found here and also some of the "R3-CK-SC" I use these as colony cages where I house 1.3. 
For growing on I use these starting with 80 weaner's per level and as animals get harvested and they grow numbers get cut back per level there is plenty of room for them but all this costs a lot I was lucky to be in a position to re-mortgage and borrow £40,000 against my house of which I spent nearly £25,000 on caging and it didn't get me that much. 
We would all love to provide better conditions but that means that you the customer would have to pay double and I don't think that many would want that I find it amazing to think I get £2.50 a rat for a live 6-7 week old rat to a pet shop for a pet and for the same size I get £0.75 frozen its cost the same to look after and raise


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## LisaLQ

I do understand that costs need to be kept down, I just do wonder how much the rats suffer because of it. Eg. I charge £10 per rat - and that rarely covers the costs of breeding and raising the litter to a good standard. Many breeders charge more. The thought that you could actually raise them on 75p per rat makes my mind boggle at what they must be missing out on - diet, substrate, housing wise.

I just wish more people stopped and thought - and maybe considered breeding their own. I was shocked and I knew about rodent farms, but you tend to put it away in some corner of your mind and forget about it. I think if more people took note of how poorly these animals live before they die, they might consider a different pet or raising their own.

I wish my other half would let me keep mice, but he thinks we have enough on with our rats - and he's right. God knows how you cope with thousands (I have 30ish rats and they're a full time job) - do you have staff to help clean them out and feed them all?


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## KathyM

Like I said, it's impossible for rodent farms to provide ethical food. I'm not judging, and I am not "you the customer" as I don't support it when at all possible. :2thumb:

I breed rats, I don't give them palaces, and they're not bred for food. This is the reality of pet breeding standards (or what they should be), and is not a recommendation for rodent farms, just a comparison. 

I use Ferplast Mary cages for 1 nursing doe (80cm x 37.5cm x 50cm), that is too small by the time the kittens are 3-4 weeks old depending on litter size. It is considered a "hospital cage" other than for nursing does as it only suitable fits one rat comfortably and rats should be kept in same sex pairs at least. Babies are then split into Savic Freddy cages (80cm x 50 x 63). Savic Freddy cage is suitable for 3-4 rats maximum. 

My breeding does are kept in Ferplast aviaries (for example, 8 in a medium Brio) and Critter 2 cages (the latter of which I save for older does as they don't need as much space for climbing and exercising). None are bred back to back and none are bred too young or more than twice in their life.

I don't see why a happy medium can't be reached. Lab cages are not suitable for 3 rats as permanent cages. I would be quite miffed to read someone saying they provide more ethical food for their clients when their conditions are only marginally better than those they claim to outdo. 

And if ethical feeder breeding is only possible in individual homes, then we should encourage those who can to avoid all rodent farms and do so, or go to someone who does. Surely?


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## Prem Morph

LisaLQ said:


> I do understand that costs need to be kept down, I just do wonder how much the rats suffer because of it. Eg. I charge £10 per rat - and that rarely covers the costs of breeding and raising the litter to a good standard. Many breeders charge more. The thought that you could actually raise them on 75p per rat makes my mind boggle at what they must be missing out on - diet, substrate, housing wise.


Unfortunately this is the case diet wise yes its not varied but balanced you don't get rats picking out their favourite parts and leaving the stuff they should be eating most pet shop sold rodent diets are maintenance diets not breeding/rearing ones and if not supplemented are not that good and rats can become unhealthy because of it. But not many people take the time to find that out but I always try to treat at least some of my rats to tasty tit bits when I can and its very difficult to produce healthy rats at that size for 75p thats why most commercial farms have stopped in this country and they are bred in eastern Europe where as well all know welfare standards are going to be drastically worse



LisaLQ said:


> I just wish more people stopped and thought - and maybe considered breeding their own. I was shocked and I knew about rodent farms, but you tend to put it away in some corner of your mind and forget about it. I think if more people took note of how poorly these animals live before they die, they might consider a different pet or raising their own.


And then we have lots of unregulated breeders that may not give them even the basic standards that farms do or the humane death that they deserve its catch 22 



LisaLQ said:


> I wish my other half would let me keep mice, but he thinks we have enough on with our rats - and he's right. God knows how you cope with thousands (I have 30ish rats and they're a full time job) - do you have staff to help clean them out and feed them all?


No I work 7 days a week of 10-16 hr days (but I do have staff for the snakes) and then it starts all over again but I have come from a farming background and I used to hate rats on the farm but my rats I really like my rats and do sometimes spend a few minutes petting some and sharing part of my sandwich even though they will all ultimately end up with a snake skin overcoat

I do commend your concerns as if we didn't have them we wouldn't have the welfare stanards that we have now. I started breeding my rats because I was fed up with stinking half starved rats I was getting from other sources. I do feed over 50% of my production to my own stock I also supply zoos and local pet shops I sleep well at night knowing I have tried my best to keep them as fit and healthy as possible with a good death that is pain free with as little stress as is possible and I have shops asking to stock my rats


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## LFBP-NEIL

all of our rodents have fresh substrate weekly (dust extracted wood shavings), and are cleaned weekly, we do employ people to do this. 

Our mice are kept in exactly the same size cages, accept we can fit a small "silent spinner" in with the mice to give them something to run round in, 

none of our rodents look sickly, none of them are sickly, if they were sickly we wouldnt be able to breed them. As soon as they are ready to mate they are paired up, bred back to back for a few months and then culled for snake food, Unfortunately as previously mentioned on subjects about price of rodents etc, its not viable to have rats or mice laid up resting. 

just trying to be honest and open about how things work, im not doing anything i am ashamed of, all of my animals are looked after to very high levels of care, they just dont have loads&loads of room to run around - but they do have enough room to get exercise and reproduce.


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## LFBP-NEIL

reason we started breeding our own rodents is because we were worried about the trades current over reliance on imports - and what happens should those imports ever stop? millions of snakes starve to death.

People should get behind UK producers of rodents. 

Also its worth noting we trialled a premium range of rodents that were bred in lower ratios and were packaged differently and priced to reflect, the end product looked exactly the same as the normal ones and guess what - people didnt buy them - they went for the cheaper ones, we put information up on the website to explain the difference between economy and premium rodents so an informed choice could be made. and the vast majority went for thr cheaper rodents. 

But i dont feel that price is forcing me to act cruelly, as i dont believe my animals are kept cruelly and nobody who has visited us has ever reeled back in horror when they see those pink eyes staring up at them.


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## LFBP-NEIL

> I use Ferplast Mary cages for 1 nursing doe (80cm x 37.5cm x 50cm), that is too small by the time the kittens are 3-4 weeks old depending on litter size. It is considered a "hospital cage" other than for nursing does as it only suitable fits one rat comfortably and rats should be kept in same sex pairs at least. Babies are then split into Savic Freddy cages (80cm x 50 x 63). Savic Freddy cage is suitable for 3-4 rats maximum.


 
this isnt an attack it really is a genuine question, my cages are 55 x 40 x 20, in comparison to the 80 x 50 x 63 you advise for 3-4 rats, what will the extra 25 x 10 x 43 cm provide for them? ok so mine cant climb vertically as they would be able to if they had an extra 43 cm of bar to climb, but they do like to hang upside down and explore the roof of the cage. I dont see how an extra 25cm in one direction and an extra 10cm in the other direction makes a huge difference, especially as you say that yours is suitable for maximum 4 rats, when mine are only 10 square inches less floor space than yours and minus a rat?


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## KathyM

Personally I only use Freddy cages for babies from 3-4 weeks to homing, but have had a pair of bucks in one before. I don't think they offer enough room for does here personally (my girls like their space to run around), but the Fancy Rats cage calculator says 3 rats, so I was trying to be generous lol. 

Rats, especially female rats and young males, need to have room to climb and exercise. Given your rats aren't getting the out time exercise mine get (and can't feasibly) this extra space would be more important to your rats than mine, and is important in growth, both muscular and therefore skeletal, exercise and mental health. It allows for healthier rats all round and would add to the size or at least quality of yours potentially. 

My main doe cage (containing my youngest, pingiest girls) is a Ferplast Medium Brio, that should put things in perspective for you:

Ferplast Brio Medium Bird Aviary & Accessories : Aviaries

I appreciate this isn't necessarily possible as a business venture, but in my mind that is perfect reason for me not to do my best not to pay into it. I'd be a hypocrite otherwise, although I'm not perfect and have had to buy from the petshop recently when I couldn't source ethical mice. I'm not here to preach though, I do understand all your arguments as to why it's not possible for you to do it, which is why I would choose not to fund you or other similar ventures.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Thanks for the reply, if i were to keep one of mine as a pet I imagine that i would like to keep them in something just like that, 

word of note for readers the pet shop licence conditions specify a minimum floor space of 1500 sq cm for a trio of adult rats, our cages provide 2200 sq cm, so although a farmed rat isnt afforded the luxury of cage such as the previous one, I do exceed what is laid down as a guideline.


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## LisaLQ

The RSPCA _guidelines_ are actually 5ft x 3ft x 2ft minimum for a pair of rats. But even most pet owners would agree that is OTT unless they are your only rats.

I do wonder what the average weights are for feeder rats/kittens. It would be interesting to compare. Eg my current litter are roughly 140g at 5 weeks (and they're a particularly small line). That is reared in suitable caging of course, with a much better diet.

What diet do you feed?


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## Prem Morph

LisaLQ said:


> The RSPCA _guidelines_ are actually 5ft x 3ft x 2ft minimum for a pair of rats. But even most pet owners would agree that is OTT unless they are your only rats.
> 
> I do wonder what the average weights are for feeder rats/kittens. It would be interesting to compare. Eg my current litter are roughly 140g at 5 weeks (and they're a particularly small line). That is reared in suitable caging of course, with a much better diet.
> 
> What diet do you feed?


I feed a roll diet called rodent magnums at 5 weeks old depending on the size of the litter I would expect them to be in the band of 120-130g litter size 12-16 kits if the litter were only 10 I would expect them to be around 140g or larger here is a scan of a label and I have been inspected by the RSPCA and they were totally satisfied with how I do things and the caging I use


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## LFBP-NEIL

There growth is fairly rapid, typically they will go from pup to fuzzie within the first week, usually reach 50g in the second week, 80 in the 3rd and between 100 - 150 in the fourth, These rats are fed sow roll, we used to feed Burgess supa rat excel which is expensive but on comparing nutritional values is identical to sow roll, except the rolls have a 2% higher fibre content, both offer 16% protein and all other trace elements are almost identical. It does the job it needs to do, grows the rats until they are big enough to die, thats the difference I am not keeping them to lead a rich and varied existence with different diets, flavours and textures, they are living to die. 

so on the gutloading aspect of things whats going into our rats is is identical to what would be going in if they were fed a "complete"rat diet. 

the feed needs to be a complete diet, not grains etc, as it needs to sit in the feed hoppers without falling through and we cant afford to have rats picking out their favourite bits, all the rats must eat all of the same diet to get the right calcium, copper, vit a, vitd3, oils & proteins into them.

edit - just posted at the same time as above, just noted that the rat magnums are identical to sow roll - apart from protein sow roll 16% vs 19% magnums


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## oakelm

Interesting thread this has turn out to be. I personally breed my own but I actually bred fancy mice for showing too, rather bizarre hobby when you consider the amount of reps I have.

I was just wondering what you fed your mice, as every pet shop mouse diet isnt actually right in terms of % so I currently have to mix my own which as I am getting more of them it become a little wasteful as it gets scattered. But I know the US have some pretty good lab blocks these days.


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## fantapants

just out of curiosity, where is the best online place to buy the complete rat diet and also the rat lab cages? i have a set up for my breeder rats already but alot of my friends are interested in clubbing together to sort out all of our rodent needs from one shed ( nd share the responsibility).


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## LFBP-NEIL

our mice get the rolls aswell and do what they need to do on them just fine, for lab cages people will rave about a company called NKP but they arent any cheaper than the ones you can find in our rodent cage section on our website Rodent Cages, The racking either needs to be custom made or you can buy the ones that come racked from vision like in the links earlier. I dont use the Rodent magnums, but sow roll can be obtained from any farm feed merchant. you also need to provide ventilation and lots of it, ammonia build up is extreme even though the cages are cleaned weekly.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Just incase anybody has any shadow of doubt about wether what we do is done to high standards, we have been inspected & passed by DEFRA, now to the average person that probably means nothing but anyone who has been in farming and has dealt with DEFRA. will know they are not easiest people to please! When i say inspected by DEFRA i dont mean filled in a form on their website and got given a piece of paper with no inspection nothing like the animal couriers do! we have physically been inspected by a very nice lady from DEFRA - Department for enviroment and rural affairs.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/byproducts/approvals/documents/section9.pdf


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## kingball

i disaprove of rodent farms i realy do


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## fantapants

kingball said:


> i disaprove of rodent farms i realy do


do you prefer to go ut and catch the rats from the wild so you can feed your snakes? or do you not keep snakes?


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## Prem Morph

As said by Neil sow rolls are by far the best substitute for a commercial diet for rodents My Magnums are to be fed to all rodents and work well but at £450 a tonne they ain't cheap and you can only buy it by the tonne but as I said earlier sow rolls don't offer a high enough protein level for breeders and growers they do alright but the difference in performance when using the magnums is staggering I actually made a complete c*ck up as I had 300 weaner's that were required for an order at small size (96-140g) and I gave them the same time as I would on sow rolls and had myself 300 medium in stead

If using sow rolls I used to supplement with whole wheat and a mixed poultry corn every other day this has a higher protein level and is a natural food I would buy 1 bag of wheat and 1 of Poultry corn mix 50-50 cost about £10 and give a small handful every other day


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## Prem Morph

kingball said:


> i disaprove of rodent farms i realy do


as is your right to do so just don't tell anyone else that they aren't allowed to as well.

freedom of choice and all that


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## Prem Morph

fantapants said:


> just out of curiosity, where is the best online place to buy the complete rat diet and also the rat lab cages? i have a set up for my breeder rats already but alot of my friends are interested in clubbing together to sort out all of our rodent needs from one shed ( nd share the responsibility).


The cages Neil is saying about are fair cages but I don't like them myself as the divider for the food and water is not fixed but other than that they are ok I have about 50 of the large ones for growing on mice I have just drilled and fixed the divider

If you did want to club together I would suggest you went to one of the European shows with a small van they always have cages for sale there and they seem a better quality although I have never purchased any. Keep an eye out on here for second hand mouse and rat racks the best ones are RC1 for rats (or the High top version) and MB1 for mice but you will probably have to fork out about £350 for a rat rack of 15 - 18 cages but worth it as you can get spare bases for about £15 each. New they are about £45 complete


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## KathyM

fantapants said:


> do you prefer to go ut and catch the rats from the wild so you can feed your snakes? or do you not keep snakes?


What an insanely stupid comment. People can disapprove of rodent farms and still source ethical food without going out hunting for wild rats. :whistling2:

All you have to do is set a decent standard and breed to them for yourself, or find someone who does it to decent standards. If you're happy to cram them in lab cages and breed shite food for your snakes then that's your choice although be aware that you'd be breaking the new Animal Welfare Act and could be prosecuted.


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## KathyM

fantapants said:


> just out of curiosity, where is the best online place to buy the complete rat diet and also the rat lab cages? i have a set up for my breeder rats already but alot of my friends are interested in clubbing together to sort out all of our rodent needs from one shed ( nd share the responsibility).


There is no complete diet suitable for rats. Rats need a varied diet, I make up a mix of rabbit food, low sugar cereals, rice cakes, pasta (in winter or for babies only) and dry dog food. Then they get fresh veg (especially kale)/fruit/etc daily too. Younger animals get extra protein in the form of sardines, eggs, EMP with Lactol, etc. Perhaps not possible in a rodent farm setting (another reason to avoid them) but no excuse not to feed properly at home.


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## KathyM

Prem Morph said:


> as is your right to do so just don't tell anyone else that they aren't allowed to as well.
> 
> freedom of choice and all that


I don't think he or anyone else on here has said anyone is "not allowed" to do whatever the hell they want when it comes to feeding their own snakes. However, I think it's pretty telling that those who are speaking out against poor standards in rodent farms are shot down like this instead of accepted on an open forum thread about rodent farms. He's entitled to his view just as much as the rodent farms are entitled to theirs. I don't see a single word in his post telling others what to do, and yet you did it to him! :whistling2:


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## KathyM

These are pictures of a rodent farm in the Netherlands. See how the nursing mum can barely fit in the lab cages, see how much room 3 juveniles have and imagine 3 adult rats in one. The 5 (or 6?) babies in one too, they can barely move. 

Rodent Farm

While I know this is Europe, those are the standard lab cages I've seen people use for breeding rodents over here. For rats they are not suitable, as those pictures show clearly. 

In the interest of attempting to see "the other side" I would be interested in what health measures are taken for sick rats in the care of those breeding food for reptiles. Are sick animals treated or just culled? If the latter, do they make it into petfood circulation as my experience would say yes?

To those who farm for food and petshops, what ages do you separate and what breeding practices do you employ to prevent inherited illness or pregnancy of the babies? Having had first hand experience with rats from Simon's Rodents, I would be very interested to know if breeding back to back from rats with genetic diseases and chronic mycoplasma, and not seperating babies at the suitable age was the norm, because it is for them.


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## LFBP-NEIL

The lab cages shown in the close ups in that link are actually smaller than the ones we use, mine are not cramped like that. 

Sick animals are culled and the the body is incinerated, any sign of genetic weakness, deformity etc is culled and incinerated. i.e rats that have tumors develop are culled and incinerated immediately. 

We as yet have never had any problems such as respiratory illness etc, and i believe that is because the animals are kept clean, the air is highly extracted and they are fed a complete diet. 

Babies dont live long enough to get pregnant, unless being grown on for larger sizes in which case they are kept in same sex groups.


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## KathyM

Thanks Neil - I do appreciate how open you are about things.


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## sunnyskeg

KathyM said:


> What an insanely stupid comment. People can disapprove of rodent farms and still source ethical food without going out hunting for wild rats. :whistling2:
> 
> All you have to do is set a decent standard and breed to them for yourself, or find someone who does it to decent standards. If you're happy to cram them in lab cages and breed shite food for your snakes then that's your choice although be aware that you'd be breaking the new Animal Welfare Act and could be prosecuted.


reading the welfare act to the letter ie feeding the most natural food possible/available......wouldnt live feeding be the most natural,if your on about feeding ethical food.We breed our own rodents, pairs of females are kept in 142ltr boxes and mice in 32ltr boxes,but i also understand that commercial rodent farms cannot afford the sort of space for those size cages


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## KathyM

Live feeding is a delicate subject and I don't think anyone would say under normal circumstances it was kinder to either species than feeding humanely raised and killed food. I think you're confusing "natural" with "ethical". 

How do rats climb in a plastic storage tub? Just wondering.


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## sunnyskeg

KathyM said:


> Live feeding is a delicate subject and I don't think anyone would say under normal circumstances it was kinder to either species than feeding humanely raised and killed food. I think you're confusing "natural" with "ethical".
> 
> How do rats climb in a plastic storage tub? Just wondering.


they have wire tops and wire vents in the side


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## Prem Morph

KathyM said:


> I don't think he or anyone else on here has said anyone is "not allowed" to do whatever the hell they want when it comes to feeding their own snakes. However, I think it's pretty telling that those who are speaking out against poor standards in rodent farms are shot down like this instead of accepted on an open forum thread about rodent farms. He's entitled to his view just as much as the rodent farms are entitled to theirs. I don't see a single word in his post telling others what to do, and yet you did it to him! :whistling2:


Nope he didn't and nor did I. I expressed my opinion as did he don't read into things more than they actually are otherwise a discussion ends up a slagging match : victory:


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## JDKREPS

cheers prem morphs, lfbp-neil very intersting read!! and very informative! shame other people have to spoil a good read


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## Prem Morph

KathyM said:


> These are pictures of a rodent farm in the Netherlands. See how the nursing mum can barely fit in the lab cages, see how much room 3 juveniles have and imagine 3 adult rats in one. The 5 (or 6?) babies in one too, they can barely move.
> 
> Rodent Farm
> 
> While I know this is Europe, those are the standard lab cages I've seen people use for breeding rodents over here. For rats they are not suitable, as those pictures show clearly.
> 
> In the interest of attempting to see "the other side" I would be interested in what health measures are taken for sick rats in the care of those breeding food for reptiles. Are sick animals treated or just culled? If the latter, do they make it into petfood circulation as my experience would say yes?
> 
> To those who farm for food and petshops, what ages do you separate and what breeding practices do you employ to prevent inherited illness or pregnancy of the babies? Having had first hand experience with rats from Simon's Rodents, I would be very interested to know if breeding back to back from rats with genetic diseases and chronic mycoplasma, and not seperating babies at the suitable age was the norm, because it is for them.


Yep sorry don't agree with the way they are kept looks like she is in a small mouse box at best not good. there are poor welfare places out there as we all know thats why we should promote the breeders in this country as we do have higher welfare standards in general 

As said by Neil any problems are culled immediately and incinerated and I spent nearly 5k on a climate control ventilation system for my rodents which is zoned so the mice are kept slightly differently to the rats 

On a total side note I went to agricultural college. we went on an exchange with a French college and visited a market and slaughter house
At the market was a steer with an abscessed broken leg with the bone showing through the skin that animal was there all morning. We arrived at the slaughter house in the afternoon and lo and behold there was the steer it was still alive when we left that poor animal should have never been allowed to be transported it should have been destroyed on farm 

Most foreign countries don't empathise with animals any way near as much as we do, the EU brings in legislation on welfare reform and they just ignore it this definitely equates to rodent farms in the ex eastern bloc countries where we now get most of our rodents from


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## KathyM

JDKREPS said:


> cheers prem morphs, lfbp-neil very intersting read!! and very informative! shame other people have to spoil a good read


What's with the aggro? We're all discussing things politely, would be nice if you could too? :2thumb:


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## JDKREPS

wow id love to know were the aggro is in that post!! lets get back on the subject!! prem morph or lfbp-neil do you have any more pics of your set ups
cheers james


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## LisaLQ

Prem Morph said:


> thats why we should promote the breeders in this country as we do have higher welfare standards in general


I would happily promote any feeder business who kept their animals in "higher welfare standards". Sadly I've not found any yet.

"Higher" does not mean "best" or "optimum". The housing and diet needs might be adequate (at best, I dont personally agree that they are) for them to survive, but they are not _in my opinion_ ethical or humane.

I am aware that makes me a hypocrite for buying it, but when it's our only option, that's my choice or I could rehome my snakes. I just wish that people would take more notice - people want better quality animals to feed their snakes, humane or not, rodent farmed animals are at best "make do".


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## LisaLQ

JDKREPS said:


> wow id love to know were the aggro is in that post!! lets get back on the subject!! prem morph or lfbp-neil do you have any more pics of your set ups
> cheers james


When your only post is "shame other people have to spoil a good read", that is aggro. You're saying because people dont agree, that they are not entitled to reply.

If you're not going to add to the discussion, leave it and start your own.


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## JDKREPS

think i added to the post by complamenting the 2 main posters!! then asking for pics of there set ups!!


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## Prem Morph

Come on lets all remain friends here

I must admit I do see the point about housing, diet well that I think is debatable and would argue that the diet I use is a balanced diet designed by nutritionists for the health and wellbeing of the animals it is to be fed to. Well yes there is the argument it may be boring to eat the same thing all the time but it is not healthy to allow rats to pic there favourite food and only eat that this is not a balanced diet 

I now bow out I have enjoyed the discussion but need to work now

I will go to bed tonight with a clear conscience knowing I have done my best and my snakes have been fed with the most nutritious food I can provide raised in the best conditions I can provide


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## KathyM

That's all we can do Barrie (by the way my OH spells his name the same, not commonly done that!). I'm not here to preach, and I agree that sharing info in a friendly manner is the way to go. I have strong beliefs and sometimes that comes across a bit strong, but I can't change that, although I will attempt to revise posts before hitting the button if they're being seen as offensive.


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## LisaLQ

Prem Morph said:


> Come on lets all remain friends here
> 
> I must admit I do see the point about housing, diet well that I think is debatable and would argue that the diet I use is a balanced diet designed by nutritionists for the health and wellbeing of the animals it is to be fed to. Well yes there is the argument it may be boring to eat the same thing all the time but it is not healthy to allow rats to pic there favourite food and only eat that this is not a balanced diet


If rats pick and choose, they're being over fed. A rat fed the correct amount of a balanced mix will not pick and choose. You have to be careful where you're treading now - because most rat breeders feed a homemade mix - and to say they're not nutritionally sound is nonsense. You cant alter a nugget to suit different ages (eg kittens and nursing mums need extra protein, whereas adults need less, and oldies even less) or sizes (you cant alter a nugget to suit an underweight rat or overweight rat). Nuggets are the bare minimum they need to survive. While it may be what's cheapest (although a homemade rabbit food and dog food mix is no more expensive than nuggets I've priced up), it is not giving the best. If people want their snakes to have the best food, they need the healthiest mice/rats they can get, not those fed the bare minimum to survive, they need optimum nutrition. The better the diet, the better the mouse/rat, the healthier the snake.

The mice I've just fed my snakes (tried a different shop) were all underweight, matchstick tails, bruised looking, malnourished mice. I've not found anywhere that stocks any better. If the mice have square tails, they are malnourished and not receiving adequate, let alone good, nutrition. The worse nutrition they get, the worse food they are for our snakes. It's time people took notice. It doesn't cost much more to give them a healthy diet, or some toys to keep them active, or a slightly larger environment.


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## sunnyskeg

LisaLQ said:


> If rats pick and choose, they're being over fed. A rat fed the correct amount of a balanced mix will not pick and choose. You have to be careful where you're treading now - because most rat breeders feed a homemade mix - and to say they're not nutritionally sound is nonsense. You cant alter a nugget to suit different ages (eg kittens and nursing mums need extra protein, whereas adults need less, and oldies even less) or sizes (you cant alter a nugget to suit an underweight rat or overweight rat). Nuggets are the bare minimum they need to survive. While it may be what's cheapest (although a homemade rabbit food and dog food mix is no more expensive than nuggets I've priced up), it is not giving the best. If people want their snakes to have the best food, they need the healthiest mice/rats they can get, not those fed the bare minimum to survive, they need optimum nutrition. The better the diet, the better the mouse/rat, the healthier the snake.
> 
> The mice I've just fed my snakes (tried a different shop) were all underweight, matchstick tails, bruised looking, malnourished mice. I've not found anywhere that stocks any better. If the mice have square tails, they are malnourished and not receiving adequate, let alone good, nutrition. The worse nutrition they get, the worse food they are for our snakes. It's time people took notice. It doesn't cost much more to give them a healthy diet, or some toys to keep them active, or a slightly larger environment.


why dont you just set up a commercial rodent farm and show them how its done then.............put YOUR money where your mouth is


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## LFBP-NEIL

LisaLQ said:


> If people want their snakes to have the best food, they need the healthiest mice/rats they can get, not those fed the bare minimum to survive, .


The design of a commercial rat breeding cage allows the constant supply of food, providing that the rat farmer keeps their hoppers filled up constantly the rodents can eat as much or as little as they want. 

the diet that commercial breeders feed allows all of the essential vits & minerals, proteins etc to be delivered to the rodents in the most efficient manner. 

Dont forget our long term aims are different, you are breeding rats to be pets and as such I am sure you will want to provide a diet that is varied, enriching and nutritionally balanced to give your rats the longest healthiest life possible, 

My aim is to produce a rodent for snake food in the most efficient, cost effective manner whilst maintaining a high standard of welfare & Hygiene.


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## royalpython

interesting thread, but i've heard it all before. 

We are currently using the rat sized lab cages for our rats, but we do plan on upgrading their cages once i get the shed properly kitted out for them. We were meant to do this before christmas, but there's always something getting in the way. In a way i'm glad i never, we had a freezing cold year this year, and i hadn't planned on this for the development of the shed.

Rat cage

I don't expect the rodent farms to meet these sizes of cages, because it just isn't practical really. 

We breed many more multimammates than we do rats and the rat sized lab cages do them brilliantly. Rats are ok in them, and seem happy enough. I often catch them playing around. We also provide them with fresh veg - mostly Kurly Kale and Carrot - it's cheap and very easily obtained from Asda next door to us, and they love it. We usually buy in seed sticks, and corn on the cob from PAH every time we order the bales of woodshavings as well. They get their treats every time we clean them out. The main diet they get is a dog biscuit with 18% protein. 

We probably have around 15 cages in full use all the time, sometimes it exceeds this and it jumps to 18 cages. The point i'm making is, there's only so much you can do, raising rats in numbers. I feel quite glad that i can provide them with treats... i have the time to provide this for them, and so at least i know i can marginally improve their lifestyles. We're looking forward to moving them into their new cages, and considering the cost of the lucky reptile cages, these don't come in much more expensive - plus you could probably house more in them.

I understand the concerns made by pet rat owners, but it really does look like it's either rodent farms, or no reptiles, or breed your own supply.

Edited : We did use to feed the shunamite diet, and house them in a Jenny rat cage, but they picked and picked away at their food. You really cant expect a rodent farmer to put up with this, it's a lot of wasted food. I also used to have my multiumammates kill loads of their babies on the shunamite diet. Once i switched to the dog biscuit and treats it all stopped.


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## LisaLQ

sunnyskeg said:


> why dont you just set up a commercial rodent farm and show them how its done then.............put YOUR money where your mouth is


Erm. I do breed rodents. Just on a smaller scale. I wouldn't want to open a rodent farm as it goes against what I believe in, being mass producing rodents as cheaply as possible regardless of their welfare in order to make a profit.

I'm not against raising feeder food. I just wish there were smaller more humane breeders who raised their rats with a good diet and cage enrichment.

I think even if you put the humane part aside, the mice we get from mass producers are very poor quality. And I am a firm believer in you get back what you put in. So a snake raised on poor quality mice wont be as healthy as one raised on good quality mice.

I have yet to find a stockist who raise their mice to the standard I'd hope, so I will have to look for a private breeder who can supply me, or breed my own.

The fact of the matter is - mass produced mice in poor housing + poor diet = malnourished mice = bad food. You just have to look at the ones I've defrosted lately to see they weren't fed, housed, killed or packed in a high quality manner.


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## LisaLQ

royalpython said:


> interesting thread, but i've heard it all before.
> 
> We are currently using the rat sized lab cages for our rats, but we do plan on upgrading their cages once i get the shed properly kitted out for them. We were meant to do this before christmas, but there's always something getting in the way. In a way i'm glad i never, we had a freezing cold year this year, and i hadn't planned on this for the development of the shed.
> 
> Rat cage
> 
> I don't expect the rodent farms to meet these sizes of cages, because it just isn't practical really.
> 
> We breed many more multimammates than we do rats and the rat sized lab cages do them brilliantly. Rats are ok in them, and seem happy enough. I often catch them playing around. We also provide them with fresh veg - mostly Kurly Kale and Carrot - it's cheap and very easily obtained from Asda next door to us, and they love it. We usually buy in seed sticks, and corn on the cob from PAH every time we order the bales of woodshavings as well. They get their treats every time we clean them out. The main diet they get is a dog biscuit with 18% protein.
> 
> We probably have around 15 cages in full use all the time, sometimes it exceeds this and it jumps to 18 cages. The point i'm making is, there's only so much you can do, raising rats in numbers. I feel quite glad that i can provide them with treats... i have the time to provide this for them, and so at least i know i can marginally improve their lifestyles. We're looking forward to moving them into their new cages, and considering the cost of the lucky reptile cages, these don't come in much more expensive - plus you could probably house more in them.
> 
> I understand the concerns made by pet rat owners, but it really does look like it's either rodent farms, or no reptiles, or breed your own supply.
> 
> Edited : We did use to feed the shunamite diet, and house them in a Jenny rat cage, but they picked and picked away at their food. You really cant expect a rodent farmer to put up with this, it's a lot of wasted food. I also used to have my multiumammates kill loads of their babies on the shunamite diet. Once i switched to the dog biscuit and treats it all stopped.


The difference being you care more. You give them treats. You give them veg (must admit - I was shocked!). You use rat cages (all be it small ones, they are adequate for a nursing mum and babies - which is essentially all you need them to be).

I dont think the diet is a good one, but at least your supplementing with veg. I would swap the dog food for rabbit food, even rats raised on rabbit food alone will do better than on dog food. As said already, if your rats/mice pick at their food, you're putting too much in. You're aiming for them to have food 20-22 hours of the day, so that the food bowl is empty when you change it.


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## LFBP-NEIL

On the whole size of cage thing, whats the benefit of the extra size? we have already established that according to the fancy rat calculator?? my cages are 10 square inches too small? ok so battery farming chickens isn't great because chickens naturally like to flock, roost, scratch for food. and caging them battery style deprives them of this leading to stressed chickens....

based on my own observations on keeping and breeding rats they like to eat, drink, breed (in that order), make nests, and in the process of making nests - gnaw and chew (papers, cardboard and wood provided for such activity) ,

Now based on my own observations of rats in the wild particularly around farms, rats will take or create the shortest route possible to food and water -hence the expression "rat run" when a route is frequently used as a shortcut - on a farm you can visibly see the rat runs, where the rats have trodden down a path from the food store to their nest site, rats always like to nest in,near or under a warm, dry place with ready access to nesting materials and close proximity to food.

all of this is provided within the commercial enviroment, i dont see any of their natural behaviours being suppressed?


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## Twiglet

Having seen the pictures and info put up by LFBP and prem morph, watched this thread and seen where its gone I'd just like to give you guys a pat on the back. 
Ok so the cages are small and the diet is a solid block and not a varied one but in all honesty I was actually pleasantly suprised by what I have seen.
I largely breed my own food for my snakes because the frozen stuff I can get locally is clearly imported crap. Once defrosted you can see the lice in the fur and the spinal processes, it stinks and disgusts me. The mice I breed (fancies and multis) are fed a diet of pig pellets, low fat, low protein dog kibble various millets, clipped oats, other seeds, vegetables of various descriptions CeeDee Egg Food, the odd table scrap and other bits and bobs. I've tried various diets for feeder breeding including the shunamite diet with varying degrees of success and the above is the one that I have found to work best.
I can do this because I dont have very many mouths to feed. 
I do not breed rats as I need them at big sizes and I dont see that it is viable to breed rats for the sake of only 2-4 XL rats, 4-6 small rats and 3 medium rats every 4-6 weeks. That and the fact that I already spend far more time on keeping and cleaning the food than I do the reptiles. Ok so some of the breeders have names but they are still eventually going to end up as dinner.
And much as I'd love to say "hell yeah, I'll buy premium feeder rats and rabbits for my boas and royals" its not going to happen. 

To 'ethically' produce bunnies for food is going to at least double or triple their price and when the crap ones are being sold locally for as much as £12each anyway I can honestly say I wouldn't be able to afford to feed my guys on a higher priced product. 

Back to the above rodent farms.

The photos show clean, sanitary living conditions. Ok so not massive, but adequate. I really do appreciate what others on here have said regarding rat enclosure sizes and would personally never keep rats in something so small myself HOWEVER I'm not breeding thousands of rats as a business. 
So despite the fact that to the average joe or a serious fancy rat hobbiest their cages look small I'd like to at least acknowledge that your guys are clearly doing your best to ensure comfortable surroundings for animals ultimately destined to die. 

I've seen pictures of various peoples rodent breeding set ups on here that have disgusted me. Some people really should just leave rodent feeder breeding to the pro's. 

So well done guys for trying your best and at least providing a much higher quality product and quality of life to the animals that most have even tried to do. 

Kat


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## LoveForLizards

Twiglet said:


> To 'ethically' produce bunnies for food is going to at least double or triple their price and when the crap ones are being sold locally for as much as £12each anyway I can honestly say I wouldn't be able to afford to feed my guys on a higher priced product.


:gasp: How big are the rabbit you're buying?!! I should hope bloody big and at least a year old for that price! :gasp:


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## LoveForLizards

And just to add, it'd actually be very cheap to raise your own feeder rabbits. 
Dismissing the original costs, because as with any animal it's on the expensive side, but it's also a one time cost. But meat rabbits are best grown on grass, hay, a few weeds and veggies here and there, and a small amount of straights (barley rings, pony mix, alfalfa, oats), making the cost stupidly cheap.


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## Twiglet

cheap until you take into account the cost of purchasing decent stock to start with and decent cages etc. 
If I were to purchase cheap rabbits and keep them in crappy conditions then I may as well just purchase the frozen stuff and save an extra pair of bunnies a life stuck in piddly cages eating rubbish food. 
The size is variable. Needless to say the boas generally get fed rats...

Kat


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## KathyM

LFBP-NEIL said:


> On the whole size of cage thing, whats the benefit of the extra size? we have already established that according to the fancy rat calculator?? my cages are 10 square inches too small? ok so battery farming chickens isn't great because chickens naturally like to flock, roost, scratch for food. and caging them battery style deprives them of this leading to stressed chickens....
> 
> based on my own observations on keeping and breeding rats they like to eat, drink, breed (in that order), make nests, and in the process of making nests - gnaw and chew (papers, cardboard and wood provided for such activity) ,
> 
> Now based on my own observations of rats in the wild particularly around farms, rats will take or create the shortest route possible to food and water -hence the expression "rat run" when a route is frequently used as a shortcut - on a farm you can visibly see the rat runs, where the rats have trodden down a path from the food store to their nest site, rats always like to nest in,near or under a warm, dry place with ready access to nesting materials and close proximity to food.
> 
> all of this is provided within the commercial enviroment, i dont see any of their natural behaviours being suppressed?


Rats in the wild get an awful lot of exercise, unlike rats kept in cages. Pet owners/breeders (decent ones anyway) give rats out time to ensure they get the physical exercise necessary for proper growth and health, rodent farms keep them permanently in their cage so if decent rat size/health/muscle mass is important to feeder breeders one can assume cage sizes would be *more* important not less so. I've already said before that this could work out impossible on a mass breeding scale, which is why I would encourage people to breed their own to their own standard if it's important to them. 

I did answer this question a few pages ago, unless I'm going mad (which is entirely possible!). I also don't understand the bad feeling coming through on some pro-farming posts (not yours), as people are discussing this politely and openly here and I was quite enjoying learning from everyone. If having animal welfare at heart (without being an activist or anything scary lol) is a bad thing here, I wish someone would've warned me! I would've thought anyone learning how to improve their own practices would be a positive thing, not a negative one (and that goes both ways!).


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## fantapants

KathyM said:


> What an insanely stupid comment. People can disapprove of rodent farms and still source ethical food without going out hunting for wild rats. :whistling2:
> 
> All you have to do is set a decent standard and breed to them for yourself, or find someone who does it to decent standards. If you're happy to cram them in lab cages and breed shite food for your snakes then that's your choice although be aware that you'd be breaking the new Animal Welfare Act and could be prosecuted.


i DO breed my own rats, and they are raised to a good standard and i supply friends in home raised rats aswell as we were so sick of the crap you buy in fom the shops. And my comment was meant sarcasticaly so keep your hair on! coming onot a reptile forum and saying you disagree with rodent farms is a little like going onto a meat eaters forum and asking why they arent vegetarians.




KathyM said:


> There is no complete diet suitable for rats. Rats need a varied diet, I make up a mix of rabbit food, low sugar cereals, rice cakes, pasta (in winter or for babies only) and dry dog food. Then they get fresh veg (especially kale)/fruit/etc daily too. Younger animals get extra protein in the form of sardines, eggs, EMP with Lactol, etc. Perhaps not possible in a rodent farm setting (another reason to avoid them) but no excuse not to feed properly at home.


i DO feed my rats properly at home. they have a dried diet that is supplement with fruit, veg, cereals and all sorts of bits i get on offer from the shops. i was simply asking about the aternative dried food that could form a foundation to their diet. please dont _assume_ to know i was going to feed a pellet diet exclusively.



KathyM said:


> Rats in the wild get an awful lot of exercise, unlike rats kept in cages. Pet owners/breeders (decent ones anyway) give rats out time to ensure they get the physical exercise necessary for proper growth and health, rodent farms keep them permanently in their cage so if decent rat size/health/muscle mass is important to feeder breeders one can assume cage sizes would be *more* important not less so. I've already said before that this could work out impossible on a mass breeding scale, which is why I would encourage people to breed their own to their own standard if it's important to them.
> 
> I did answer this question a few pages ago, unless I'm going mad (which is entirely possible!). I also don't understand the bad feeling coming through on some pro-farming posts (not yours), as people are discussing this politely and openly here and I was quite enjoying learning from everyone. If having animal welfare at heart (without being an activist or anything scary lol) is a bad thing here, I wish someone would've warned me! I would've thought anyone learning how to improve their own practices would be a positive thing, not a negative one (and that goes both ways!).


 
i too have animal welfare at heart. i lost a snake to crypto and the ONLY place it could have got it was from the food as it lived in isolation from being a hatchling. i was sick of the bashed scrawny rodents i bought from the petshop so i decided to breed my own. It cost me a fortune for the cages and when i found that the new mums kept in jenny cages were fighting i bought rat lab cages. now i keep them mums on a rotation. The mums are kept in jenny cages until they become obviously pregnant and then they are put in pairs into the lab cage to have their babies. They are fed a WIDE range of foods and after the babies have been harvested (at around 4 weeks) the mums get a few weeks break before they go back into the main cages. mums only have 3 litters and then they are culled. males are culled after 9 months and then new blood brought in to prevent inbreeding.


----------



## LoveForLizards

Twiglet said:


> cheap until you take into account the cost of purchasing decent stock to start with and decent cages etc.
> If I were to purchase cheap rabbits and keep them in crappy conditions then I may as well just purchase the frozen stuff and save an extra pair of bunnies a life stuck in piddly cages eating rubbish food.
> The size is variable. Needless to say the boas generally get fed rats...
> 
> Kat



That's why I said dismissing the original costs.


----------



## KathyM

fantapants said:


> coming onot a reptile forum and saying you disagree with rodent farms is a little like going onto a meat eaters forum and asking why they arent vegetarians.


I don't think it is for many people. I think the problem is people see it as an inevitable part of snake keeping and it's just not. I would rather not have snakes than keep them craply and feed them rubbish, same with any animal. And part of the reason I come on these boards is to learn more to ensure I'm doing things "right". I know some people see their right to have pets as higher than their responsibility, but I'm not one of them and lots of great reptile owners (and rodent breeders) feel very strongly about "getting it right" (yourself included obviously). Part of that for me personally is ensuring I'm feeding them a proper diet, hence discussion here. If someone asks about rodent farms on a reptile board, are those who disagree with some of their practices meant to keep quiet to save their business at the expense of the snakes AND the rodents, or are we allowed to share our views too?




> i DO feed my rats properly at home. they have a dried diet that is supplement with fruit, veg, cereals and all sorts of bits i get on offer from the shops. i was simply asking about the aternative dried food that could form a foundation to their diet. please dont _assume_ to know i was going to feed a pellet diet exclusively.


I didn't assume any such thing given you didn't say it. I think you're getting overly defensive and taking a whole post as personal to you - others are posting quite happily sharing information. Maybe previous discussions have been argumentative in nature and this puts people on the defensive, but this one isn't like that. Or at least it hasn't been so far, and I think that's to the credit of both "sides" considering there have been a couple of stirring posts made to inflame.


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## LisaLQ

> coming onot a reptile forum and saying you disagree with rodent farms is a little like going onto a meat eaters forum and asking why they arent vegetarians


I dont think it's comparable to the vegetarian argument at all. No-one is saying that snakes shouldn't eat. No-one is saying that it is cruel to feed them mice/rats. People aren't even saying it's wrong to mass produce them. Just some of us are saying that those mass produced mice are not good enough quality for our snakes. Which you yourself have said.

:lol2:


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## fantapants

KathyM said:


> I don't think it is for many people. I think the problem is people see it as an inevitable part of snake keeping and it's just not. I would rather not have snakes than keep them craply and feed them rubbish, same with any animal. And part of the reason I come on these boards is to learn more to ensure I'm doing things "right". I know some people see their right to have pets as higher than their responsibility, but I'm not one of them and lots of great reptile owners (and rodent breeders) feel very strongly about "getting it right" (yourself included obviously). Part of that for me personally is ensuring I'm feeding them a proper diet, hence discussion here. If someone asks about rodent farms on a reptile board, are those who disagree with some of their practices meant to keep quiet to save their business at the expense of the snakes AND the rodents, or are we allowed to share our views too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't assume any such thing given you didn't say it. I think you're getting overly defensive and taking a whole post as personal to you - others are posting quite happily sharing information. Maybe previous discussions have been argumentative in nature and this puts people on the defensive, but this one isn't like that. Or at least it hasn't been so far, and I think that's to the credit of both "sides" considering there have been a couple of stirring posts made to inflame.


 
i am not being deffensive, nor am i taking it personaly ., i hoenstly think that this thread has been realy good and very very informative. after page one i was half expecting it to go off on a tangent and to end in name calling!

i am glad to know that you feel the same as i do in regards to people breeding there own food. I cant help but think that it would lead to healthier food and also healthier reptiles. I used to breed my own roaches aswell and i would recomend it to anybody.


----------



## KathyM

That's the one thing I really miss about having my beardie (other than her of course!) - the dubia roaches. They were fantastic, I really loved breeding them and they turned my view of "creepy crawlies" right round. :2thumb:


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## rachel132002

Bit late coming onto this thread but my 2p is here:

I breed my own food for me and atm due to getting cold weather i'm not keeping head above water but that's besides the point.

My rats are in racking systems, home built with water bottles simply because i can't afford professional systems and don't have that much space and same for automatic watering systems.

The rodents are checked daily, each box has 1.2 breeders in there and a hopper full of food which lasts approx a week but as i say im in daily so if it runs out i top it up, each box also has 2 water bottles and i have spares so if any dry out i just switch them.

They're fed on Dr Johns Silver Medal and get the odd bit of carrott/apple here and there.

I clean weekly which is when i top up water and food and move breeders etc.

Every female is separated from the boys when i see she is pregnant and i group them in 2's or 3's preferably but if i'm producing lots i can do to 4 but my ideal is 2-3 per box.

Each litter stays with mum until they're weaned at which point they're taken and fed off if not before or kept back for breeding.

I humanely kill any rats that don't appear healthy or are retired breeders or for food etc using a Rat Zapper Ultra, the rats are then fed or frozen depending on what's going on except for unhealthy ones which are disposed of.

The best rodent facility i've been to so far has to be Sean @ Ratworld, it's immaculate....there's god knows how many rodents there but there is no smell and everything is done to a really high standard too.

So, that's my 2p worth...

Rach


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## KathyM

I really do respect your right to do things however you see fit so I won't say it.


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## LisaLQ

I wont ask what a rat zapper is, but it certainly doesn't sound humane.

Co2 however, I've seen and know it is.


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## royalpython

Actually, among all the other methods of humanely killing rats, i think this one is more humane to kill than any other. The problem with zapping them is waiting for them to step on the right spot for zapping - which would take way too long for me to go through the collection and feed.

For this reason i've chosen not to buy one, which is a shame


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## LisaLQ

What method do the main rodent farms use?


----------



## toyah

Gas (Co2).


----------



## LisaLQ

Thanks Toyah.

I think this thread has made me realise that I do need to make my own. If you want a job doing properly, best to do it yourself.

I'm not keen on the idea, but I do know they'll be ethically reared, well fed, and happy before they go.


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## royalpython

In an ideal world i'd rather breed all the rat food for my snakes, and who knows, i might eventually be able to do this for them one day, if i ever get this shed sorted out for them :lol:


----------



## KathyM

LisaLQ said:


> What method do the main rodent farms use?


According to a man in a local petshop, the one that supplies his mice/rats puts them between two wet sheets and electrocutes them. I don't see electrocution as humane personally, I would think it's unecessarily stressful. 

I do wonder if anyone has any information on the effects of excess cortisol on snakes?


----------



## LisaLQ

That's awful. 

I know I'm regarded as being fluffy because I breed for pet, but I dont think there's anything wrong in sticking up for good ethics and practises. Which pet shop was it, so that I can avoid them in future?


----------



## royalpython

Thought i'd post a link for the rat zapper for you both

Home rodent control: the fastest way to get rid of mice and rats, electric rat traps

Not sure why someone, in a pet shop would go to all the bother of electrocuting between two wet sheets... seems very high risk that you'd endanger yourself as well. Seems like a pointless exercise, there are much easier methods without going to all that effort.


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## LisaLQ

I think I prefer co2 to be honest, having seen it used I know it's humane.


----------



## midori

LisaLQ said:


> I think I prefer co2 to be honest, having seen it used I know it's humane.


 
I use CO2, and although it looks fairly humane, I don't think suffocating an animal to death can be considered in any way humane. 

I do think a competant wack on the head or neck breaking is probably much quicker and therefore more humane for the rodent, but I just cannot bring myself to do it. 

I keep my breeder rats in exactly the same way as pet rats are kept, same diet, free ranging time, large cages etc and it costs me a lot more to feed my snakes this way, not least as I have some 'pet only' rats which are not bred from. However, I am happy for this, as the rat keeping is a hobby in itself and I know the rodents I breed have had a happy life.


----------



## KathyM

I think CO2 can be humane if it's done properly, I completely agree that it isn't when it's carried out in the wrong way. I believe low levels of CO2 used to be used as an anaesthetic in some ways? I'm sure I read that somewhere.


----------



## LisaLQ

When I saw it used, there was definitely no conscious suffocation. The rat was asleep within seconds, and didn't panic at all.


----------



## toyah

midori said:


> I use CO2, and although it looks fairly humane, I don't think suffocating an animal to death can be considered in any way humane.


Flooding the chamber with CO2 will suffocate them, and it's not humane at all. Slowly increasing the amount of CO2 will allow it to act as an anaesthetic before they eventually suffocate - that is a more humane way to do it.


----------



## midori

toyah said:


> Flooding the chamber with CO2 will suffocate them, and it's not humane at all. Slowly increasing the amount of CO2 will allow it to act as an anaesthetic before they eventually suffocate - that is a more humane way to do it.


 
I would really like to believe that is the case, it would make me feel much better. Have you a link or something please?


----------



## midori

LisaLQ said:


> When I saw it used, there was definitely no conscious suffocation. The rat was asleep within seconds, and didn't panic at all.


 
Asleep as in eyes closed? 

As far as I am aware, I do it the correct way and am very careful about initially letting the CO2 in slowly until the animal is not moving. They don't look like they are suffering, but I would say without evidence to back it up, itis impossible for the lay person to say they are not.


----------



## toyah

midori said:


> I would really like to believe that is the case, it would make me feel much better. Have you a link or something please?


Some details on it:
CO2 Euthanasia ("Without pre-charging the chamber, place the animal(s) in the chamber and introduce 100% carbon dioxide at the rate of 10% of the chamber volume. (For a 10-liter volume chamber, use a flow rate of approximately 1 liter per minute.) After the animals become unconscious, the flow rate can be increased to minimize the time to death. Sudden exposure of conscious animals to carbon dioxide concentrations of 70% or greater has been shown to be distressful")

Also here: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...OJlo-RR5ds9n6wHQw&sig2=ZYWnA_hLMoN8vC5RP9i6AA

("The Newcastle panel determined that it is more important to avoid or minimize pain than to induce rapid unconsciousness, therefore ultimately recommended the use of low flow gradual induction methods during CO2 euthanasia. Specifically, the panel recommended administration of 100% CO2 at a flow rate of 20% chamber volume per minute to produce a loss of consciousness without apparent distress. Flow rate could be increased following unconsciousness. A study conducted by Danneman et.al. supports the aforementioned proposed CO2 euthanasia protocol (1997). This report found that the CO2 concentrations less than 70% are least likely to cause pain and/or distress. Danneman et. al. also concluded that the most humane method of CO2 euthanasia is to gradually induce the animal with a low flow rate of CO2, thereby avoiding the exposure of a conscious animal to CO2 levels greater than 70%.")

Here is the Newcastle panel paper: http://www.nc3rs.org.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=416&page=292&skin=0


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## LisaLQ

midori said:


> Asleep as in eyes closed?
> 
> As far as I am aware, I do it the correct way and am very careful about initially letting the CO2 in slowly until the animal is not moving. They don't look like they are suffering, but I would say without evidence to back it up, itis impossible for the lay person to say they are not.


Yes, asleep. Unconscious. Not awake. Not panicking or showing signs of suffocation.

It looked to me much more humane than the vet method (which I've never seen a rat not feel pain with), but like you I didnt want to take it at face value. Now Toyah's shown that I am definitely more interested in trying that route, there's no way I could electrocute anything, that has to be incredibly painful, even if it is quick.


----------



## midori

toyah said:


> Some details on it:
> CO2 Euthanasia ("Without pre-charging the chamber, place the animal(s) in the chamber and introduce 100% carbon dioxide at the rate of 10% of the chamber volume. (For a 10-liter volume chamber, use a flow rate of approximately 1 liter per minute.) After the animals become unconscious, the flow rate can be increased to minimize the time to death. Sudden exposure of conscious animals to carbon dioxide concentrations of 70% or greater has been shown to be distressful")
> 
> Also here: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...OJlo-RR5ds9n6wHQw&sig2=ZYWnA_hLMoN8vC5RP9i6AA
> 
> ("The Newcastle panel determined that it is more important to avoid or minimize pain than to induce rapid unconsciousness, therefore ultimately recommended the use of low flow gradual induction methods during CO2 euthanasia. Specifically, the panel recommended administration of 100% CO2 at a flow rate of 20% chamber volume per minute to produce a loss of consciousness without apparent distress. Flow rate could be increased following unconsciousness. A study conducted by Danneman et.al. supports the aforementioned proposed CO2 euthanasia protocol (1997). This report found that the CO2 concentrations less than 70% are least likely to cause pain and/or distress. Danneman et. al. also concluded that the most humane method of CO2 euthanasia is to gradually induce the animal with a low flow rate of CO2, thereby avoiding the exposure of a conscious animal to CO2 levels greater than 70%.")
> 
> Here is the Newcastle panel paper: http://www.nc3rs.org.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=416&page=292&skin=0


Thankyou. I certainly feel a lot better about it now. 



LisaLQ said:


> Yes, asleep. Unconscious. Not awake. Not panicking or showing signs of suffocation.
> 
> It looked to me much more humane than the vet method (which I've never seen a rat not feel pain with), but like you I didnt want to take it at face value. Now Toyah's shown that I am definitely more interested in trying that route, there's no way I could electrocute anything, that has to be incredibly painful, even if it is quick.


I have to say, I would use the term unconscious, but not 'asleep' they do have their eyes open, but I suppoe that's just down to different terminology? 

They certainly don't appear to suffer. They just gradually lay down and still until it seems pretty obvious they are unconscious. Their breathing does get heavier prior to death, but I am assuming that is an automatic response? We use a very thin tube to our chamber precisely so that it is easier to let the CO2 in more slowly.


----------



## oakelm

KathyM said:


> According to a man in a local petshop, the one that supplies his mice/rats puts them between two wet sheets and electrocutes them. I don't see electrocution as humane personally, I would think it's unecessarily stressful.


Electrocution to my knowledge is not at all common in mass production. co2 is the prefered method by most small animal producers. You can buy large ones that are used in hatcheries to get rid of male day old chicks that are push button and go to control the rate so very easy to use and no damage to the animals.

Me personally I use co2 when I have adult rats to kill as they are generally too strong for a manual method. But I will be honest and say I use cervical dislocation for mice and weaner rats purely because this is a method I have used all my rodent keeping life and to me it is the quickest and most effective for me personally and still an approved method. I dont believe electrocution has ever been classified as an approved method of culling small animals but then again I could be wrong.

It is interesting to see the different foods, housing, etc everyone uses and has made me analyse nutritional values of my own mix which I still prefer having weighed up the other options, a little bit more expensive but I have some nice chunky snakes from it.


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## LisaLQ

I wouldn't know the technical ins and outs as I've seen it done with someone else's rat, but not looked into how to make one etc, so I dont know how to make one or what size tubing one would need - I'm not really experienced in that way. 

But yes, asleep/unconcious, what I mean is "not awake and suffering/struggling".

Sorry - I'm not all "here" today lol. I wonder if there's a giant rat outside piping CO2 into my living room...


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## toyah

midori said:


> I have to say, I would use the term unconscious, but not 'asleep' they do have their eyes open, but I suppoe that's just down to different terminology?


I would say unconscious too.

CO2 isn't a perfect method of euthanisation. No method is - there is no method of ending a life that doesn't cause some pain or distress to the animal. Even natural death is rarely painless or without distress, which is why we opt for euthanisation for many of our pet animals.


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## LisaLQ

Absolutely true. But I think if I were to die, I'd prefer something that made me unconscious before killing me, I'd certainly not opt for the needle into abdomen/heart method, or sedation then injection...


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## royalpython

if it was me i'd prefer to die on what i thought was a routine cleaning exercise, without anything suspicious things going on, and it was over with within a second... which is the way i do it.

On another note, a lot of the meat we eat is electrocuted. So it most definitely is an apporved humane method for culling animals.


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## KathyM

What is approved and what is humane are two different things. I am willing to be shown otherwise, hence me not having said anything about people's personal choices on here, but I find it really hard to believe that electrocution is more humane than other options. 

Has anyone managed to find any info on effects of stress hormones on snakes?


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## royalpython

I'm sure the RSPCA would have something to say if it wasn't humane


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## KathyM

The fact that I can't currently find an RSPCA view on electrocution as a means of killing animals doesn't make it humane. I am pretty sure someone, perhaps stateside though, did a survey on the different methods of killing rodents and electrocution was not seen as "humane". If you think of how electrocution actually works, it can't be humane in my personal opinion.


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## royalpython

I was originally referring to the culling of meat that we eat ourselves... 

I was watching it on TV, and it was really quick.


----------



## KathyM

Yeah I've seen it go both ways (that sounds wrong lol) - watched it seem quite humane and other times seen it take too long and not work properly. I'm not trying to be fluffy, just do the best I can at home. :2thumb:


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## royalpython

Fair enough. 

I personally feel that CO2 should be administered properly with a gas flowmeter between regulator and chamber - otherwise it is not as accurate as any procedure written. Not many, if any will actually ever do this... most people use their eye's to pass judgement. i really don't have much of a problem with this, other than i don't feel completely comfortable not knowing what pain or stress they could be feeling (even if the procedure is followed there is still some uncertainty). Marie (my other half) still uses the CO2 method because she doesn't feel comfortable doing the hands on approach, and i don't have any issues with her doing it. I just don't feel comfortable with the "not really knowing" factor.


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## oakelm

royalpython said:


> if it was me i'd prefer to die on what i thought was a routine cleaning exercise, without anything suspicious things going on, and it was over with within a second... which is the way i do it.
> 
> On another note, a lot of the meat we eat is electrocuted. So it most definitely is an apporved humane method for culling animals.


I was refering to electrocution of small animals like mice, rats, rabbits, day old chicks, etc. Electrocution is used to stun large animals such as cows, pigs, etc. Still look at an old thing that defra sent me and electrocution aint on it but then it is about 10 years old.

To KathyM I would doubt anyone has done an experiment on stress hormones of rodents in relation to snakes be interesting if they had. In pigs for human consumption it apparently makes the taste not as nice.


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## royalpython

this link here says you can kill them with electrocution as well.

Slaughter Red

I was under the assumption that if electrocution can be used to kill animals that we eat, then why not rats that our snakes eat? 

Anyway... i don't even use electrocution as a means, so i don't really know why i'm trying to defend it :lol:


----------



## oakelm

royalpython said:


> this link here says you can kill them with electrocution as well.
> 
> Slaughter Red
> 
> I was under the assumption that if electrocution can be used to kill animals that we eat, then why not rats that our snakes eat?
> 
> Anyway... i don't even use electrocution as a means, so i don't really know why i'm trying to defend it :lol:


Yeah I dont use electrocution either and your link again refers to larger animals such as cattle, im just nosey really and I do often wonder about the legalities of such items as fair enough they are legal for pest control but culling small animals for food has only really have older acts from 1986 and 1995 when the zapper wasnt around very much.

Not something I will ever use anyway, imagine having to cull 50 rodents using it you would be there all day going back and checking it, and then you would eventually get a smart one that wont go in. :lol2:


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## royalpython

lol, i wouldn't have the patience to wait around. Plus i am confident in the way I do it, so there's no chance i'll ever need something like this.


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## KathyM

oakelm said:


> To KathyM I would doubt anyone has done an experiment on stress hormones of rodents in relation to snakes be interesting if they had. In pigs for human consumption it apparently makes the taste not as nice.


Well that's very interesting indeed, thanks - perhaps that explains why all my snakes eat well when I've "made" dinner, and when I buy takeouts from the petshop they are more likely to turn their noses up lol (like the opposite of my kids!). Mind you, the state the petshop rodents come to us is at best iffy, and on a bad day inedible for them.


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## rachel132002

LisaLQ said:


> I wont ask what a rat zapper is, but it certainly doesn't sound humane.
> 
> Co2 however, I've seen and know it is.


as I use it I shall explain. Rat walks in it buzzes then ray drops down it's dead instant but the unit carries on for 2mins just to make sure. I've never seen te rat even move once in it except for a leg twitch which is just nerves. I'm a wuss so if I had any doubt in it I wouldn't use it. 

Rach


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## LisaLQ

Hmm, I'm trying not to base my decision on fluffyness, but I still think electrocution has got to hurt somewhat. It wont be a method I use, anyway.


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## Tehanu

A big thank you to Barrie and Neil for transparency and their willingness to hare details, pictures and diets with us here, very informative indeed


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## rachel132002

LisaLQ said:


> Hmm, I'm trying not to base my decision on fluffyness, but I still think electrocution has got to hurt somewhat. It wont be a method I use, anyway.


Each to their own. I use it because I don't know if I'd be able to do co2 right though I'm sure it's not hard plus getting cans constantly is a chore and I've tried the big swing a couple of times and I just can't get it right so that's not humane for me to do that.


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## LisaLQ

From what I hear the canisters last quite a while, but I guess it depends on how often you need to do it - eg how many snakes you have. I wouldn't say it was a chore, getting a tank in every couple of months. They're not like scuba tanks :lol2:


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## giant snail

soon to be breeding and selling thanks for all information. 
all licences will be held. vet check every 6 months logs kept
all animals are kept in clean conditions with water food. handlded corectly. all mice and rats in rack like systems with plennty of room. have cardboard and straw to chew, nest and play with. rabbits and guinea pigs are kept in pet like conditions with hutches runs in doors and out. all brought inside when the weather is bad. fresh fruit and veg several times a week. handled regually. when indoors grass and dandilions are freshly picked for them. if in large runs all have wooden next boxes made for them. and toys to play with.


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## Haggis

This was a really interesting read

the guys that posted pictures of their own setups need a bit iof respect that they took the time to show how they do it and how well they do it

well done!


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## mrhoyo

Has anyone considered the difference in quality between home grown fresh killed, home grown frozen and shop bought frozen?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## oakelm

mrhoyo said:


> Has anyone considered the difference in quality between home grown fresh killed, home grown frozen and shop bought frozen?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


To me big difference in quality

Did trials on some of my own royals, had a normal clutch 2 years back that had 6 in the clutch and up to the age of 6 months I fed two fresh killed, two home frozen and two brought in frozen. All had great appetites but too small of a number to really count, more for me to see than anything. Hardly any difference in growth rates (worked out as a percentage of weight not actual weight gain) with home grown fresh killed and home grown frozen that had been frozen for a min of 1 week and max of 1 month. But big diffence in my results of the brought in frozen and this was from a local shop that had weekly deliveries so should have been reasonably fresh. Worked out to just over 1/5 less growth throughout so resulted in a noticeable difference in size at 6 months when they were sold, all food was weighed and given at the same frequency. This was mice not rats as that happened to be what I bred for other reasons. The rats over the years I simply cant get to be cost effective and they are very time consuming so dont do rats at the minute.

Helped me decide that I would up mouse production to meet all my needs, now have opposite problem in the mice I over produce them even with heavy regular culling, so sell on the spare to local rep keepers and sell a few live ones as pets, any money goes back into mouse food and bedding so almost self funding. :2thumb:


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## andy20146

LFBP-NEIL said:


> yes and No, first you need to have planning permission from the council as thousands of rodents produce a lot of waste, If you are farming/keeping an animal you have to provide it with correct animal welfare - or else you are guilty of breaking the animal welfare act.
> 
> so technically yes thats all you have to do but there are a lot of hurdles to jump over first. Defra are not exactly the easiest people to please for example we have to keep cleaning records of when the rodent rooms are cleaned, what pest control we have in place, sterilisation of cages, freezer logs, a comlete paper trail from rodents produced to the end customer,
> 
> There are no specific welfare guidlines for farming rodents in this country - but there are hardly any rodent farms in this country most come from eastern europe or america.
> 
> When Defra visit us they are keen to see how we decide what is an acceptable welfare standard for the rodents and like i previously mentioned we stock our rodents to the pet shop licence standards and also keep them to these welfare standards, this is inspected by independent vet.
> 
> The rodents have to be culled humanely or else you are causing an animal unneccessary suffering which is against animal welfare law, current humane methods are cervical dislocation or gassing - no rodent producer uses the first method (too messy, too time consuming).
> 
> so the real answer is no you cannot keep the rodents in anyway they see fit - as you must provide for their welfare.
> 
> you may not kill a farmed rodent in anyway you see fit - as it legally must be done humanely.
> 
> there is probably not a specific guidline on rodent farming as all the points are covered under other pieces of legislation - more details can be seen here Defra, UK - Animal health and welfare - Animal welfare - On farm


great info! but I have a small inquiry, I am a small time rodent breeder rats &mice and I have a colony of 150 to 200 so my question is do I need to inform defra of or my local council of what I am doing? they are kept in storage bins and plastic storage bins, both big enough for them to run around with air holes, water, food etc and I will be culling my rodents for snake food and supplying to friends and friends of friends. Do I need a pet shop licence?


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## LFBP-NEIL

on that scale i wouldnt worry about anything like that, its only when it becomes a large commercial enterprise you need to worry about things.


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## andy20146

LFBP-NEIL said:


> No they aren't there is no specific legislation to cover rodent production other than animal welfare guidlines the same as any other farmed animal. Once the rodents are dead and frozen then animal by product regs have to be adhered to, but there is no licence for producing rodents, we simply stock ours to petshop stocking density guidlines, have animal welfare policies in place and we are registered with DEFRA as a business and also registered as a animal by product producer / processor, we have been inspected by defra officials and we also get the vet to do a yearly inspection (not because we have to - because we want to). So although there isnt a specific "rodent producer" licence - defra do take an interest in whats going on and do some round to make sure everythings ok, and the rodents are produced to almost the same standards as human grade food.


so in order to produce rodents on a mass scale such as you do yourself or just simply supplying frozen/dead rodents to local shops on a small scale , you need to get registered as a animal by product producer/ processor is that the other name to your business - the processing/culling side & the other being rodent farmer?


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