# 1000 spiders in a suitcase



## bobsleaf

London pet shop owner 'tried to smuggle 1000 spiders' | World news | The Guardian

:gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:

How often do you think this happens?

How many of them do you think die in the little cardboard boxes you see in the pictures? 

Why should the man not have been named?

What kind of damage do you think this does by removing such large numbers of slow-growing apex predators from natural ecosystems?

Hazard a guess at the pet shop owner responsible??


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## joeyboy

I'd imagine they'd survive. I'm not sure how exotics are imported from Asia, Africa etc but I Imagine their in similarly tiny tubs.

Obviously though his suitcase won't have been in the pressurized cabin and so they'd be cold, but still I'd say many would have survived.

sad thing is they'll probably kill them now. 

TSS SAVE THEM!


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## Kyle T's

He must of been there awhile catching around 1000 wild T's :lol2: sucks in a way wuld of maybe brought a nice variety of species apposed to some the more popular species round the UK. 1.5m tho bit steep init ?


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## Kyle T's

joeyboy said:


> I'd imagine they'd survive. I'm not sure how exotics are imported from Asia, Africa etc but I Imagine their in similarly tiny tubs.
> 
> Obviously though his suitcase won't have been in the pressurized cabin and so they'd be cold, but still I'd say many would have survived.
> 
> sad thing is they'll probably kill them now.
> 
> TSS SAVE THEM!


yeah it would be interesting to see how the locals feel about T's weather they put them bk into the wild or just kill them


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## atum

Kyle T's said:


> He must of been there awhile catching around 1000 wild T's :lol2: sucks in a way wuld of maybe brought a nice variety of species apposed to some the more popular species round the UK. *1.5m tho bit steep init? *


Will put others off from trying the same thing.


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## joeyboy

Kyle T's said:


> yeah it would be interesting to see how the locals feel about T's weather they put them bk into the wild or just kill them


oh my problem, I thought he'd got to London oops.

Meh they'd probably release em, I don't like people taking stuff from the rainforests, so you'd think an animal organisation would release em.


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## [email protected]

:gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:


bobsleaf said:


> London pet shop owner 'tried to smuggle 1000 spiders' | World news | The Guardian
> 
> :gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:
> 
> How often do you think this happens?
> 
> How many of them do you think die in the little cardboard boxes you see in the pictures?
> 
> Why should the man not have been named?
> 
> What kind of damage do you think this does by removing such large numbers of slow-growing apex predators from natural ecosystems?
> 
> Hazard a guess at the pet shop owner responsible??


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## spider_mad

It's shame and really not needed with the amount of people breeding CB in the hobby, I understand need to take fresh bloodlines from the wild but that's taking out generations in one go.
I've heard worse where smugglers have put tarantulas into ziplock bags to save room.


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## spider_mad

if there is some other kind of market such as selling them to extract poison in order to make medicine," he added.

Here we go again people making wild accusations and conclusions based on ignorance.


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## MissyBats

poor spiders! thing is what's his petshop like if he breaks that law, a major one too!
x


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## 34531

Would love to know what petshop


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## Lucky Eddie

That would be the closed one, cos the Guy is banged up in a Brazillian jail!!!!


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## Doomgerbs

Agreed
10 million animals removed from forests illegaly and only 50 000 rescued
scary


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## SiUK

who could it be :whistling2:


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## joeyboy

SiUK said:


> who could it be :whistling2:


.....exactly..........spit it out if you know.:lol2:


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## SiUK

joeyboy said:


> .....exactly..........spit it out if you know.:lol2:


:whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Baldpoodle

well they almost ryme with Bin Laden.:whistling2:


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## Baldpoodle

opps!

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/cotidia...95u651601.shtml

Translated:
"Spiders found on british's suitcase on Rio were from Paraguai; Fine is about R$ 1 mi.

British man Lee Arden, 26, who was arrested wednesday night (11) by Federal Police with about 1000 living tarantulas in two suitcases and got caught by the detectors of the internacional airport Tom Jobim, in Rio, when he got back from a flight from Paraguai, according to IBAMA (Brasilian Institute of Wildlife and Natural Renewable Resources).

Earlier, FP sad that the foreigner would travel to London in yesterday night, but his trip was scheduled for 8pm of this thursday.

Ibama's Fiscalization Division chief, Carlos Magno, affirmed that the spiders were bought for US$ 5,00 in Paraguai. Magno said too that Ardern planned to sell then in England for US$ 50,00 each, to people who adopt these animals as pets, generally in aquariums.

The specialist also said that the simple skin contact with the animals can cause light to strong rash, but their venom isn't lethal. The british man was fined in R$ 1,3 mi and has 20 days to defend himself.

According to the police, for now, Ardern will have to stay in Brasil. The police department subchief, Rafael Potsch Andreata, said that, after paying testimony this thursday, the foreign man admitted that he planned to sell the animals in England.

"He is the owner of a pet shop in London e was going to sell the spiders there. We are investigating if he has done this before and if there is any market for the venom of this animal for the creation of medicines."

The subchief of federal police at the airport affirmed that the British will be able to answer for his crimes in liberty, since he compromise to show int Special Federal Judgeship. The destiny of the spiders will be, at first, the National Musem, were they will be cataloged, according to the police. FP haven't informed if he has a lawyer."


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## joeyboy

......Lee....:gasp::gasp::gasp:


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## C.C. Rider

Seems like a lot of people on here would have ended up buying these, I wonder if any more have come in the same way :whistling2: I'm sure Brazilian jails are lovely, as long as he's careful not to drop the soap.


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## spider_duck

:O Holy crap!


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## Willenium

C.C. Rider said:


> I'm sure Brazilian jails are lovely, as long as he's careful not to drop the soap.


Too right. You imagine the unsavoury characters he'd be in with.


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## steveyruss

I seriously doubt that he went around collecting thousands of tarantulas in the wild, that could take months. I sure as hell would think that the number of British people that could navigate themselves around the amazon rainforest for weeks on end is quite low as well. I'm guessing he picked up a lot of them on the black market cheaply. Maybe he went straight to the suppliers bypassing a lot of the paper work, I know that in certain places natives collect animals for peanuts.

Lee seems like a nice guy, what a shame he got caught up in such a mess simply because of greed. What a stupid thing to do to break so many international laws with so many animals no wonder he got so heavily fined...... I'd rather try my chances with getting a spider monkey through customs. It's so dumb I'm speechless. 

I have no problem with new species being taken from the wild for new bloodline but taking so many that are already known in captivity really strains the ecosystem and the impact can be long lasting. 

Stupidity....!


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## Matt Northampton

I have just done an internet search on the story and it seems the spiders are being sent to a museum for study, basically put in a jar of alcohol. What beats me is why take the risks? this could result in massive fines or even jail, the guy is a fool for putting himself in trouble and getting those spiders destroyed for a few quid.


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## SiUK

well now hes been named anyway I dont think it matters, yes its Lee Arden. Apparently they were collected with valid permits not even in Brazil but when he was flying home, the lane landed in Brazil and thats where the problems started, he has been bailed though so hes not in a Brazilian jail.


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## Matt Northampton

If he had valid permits then fair enough but why was he arrested then?


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## SiUK

Matt Northampton said:


> If he had valid permits then fair enough but why was he arrested?


he had valid permits for collecting in Paraguay, but Brazil is incredibly strict on any importing or exporting, as far as what is known at the moment, which has come to me from a credible source, his plane got diverted and landed in Brazil, even though he had the correct paperwork they arrested him, he has been bailed. But until he gets back I guess we wont know the full truth so no point in speculating.


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## Matt Northampton

I hope he gets things sorted then and if he is innocent hopefully people wont hold this against him,


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## Mutley.100

I'm trying not to judge before we get to hear his side but I'm concerned that they were in his suitcase . Surely they should of been in proper packaging and sent as livestock so they don't get thrown around with the rest of the luggage .


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## steveyruss

SiUK said:


> he had valid permits for collecting in Paraguay, but Brazil is incredibly strict on any importing or exporting, as far as what is known at the moment, which has come to me from a credible source, his plane got diverted and landed in Brazil, even though he had the correct paperwork they arrested him, he has been bailed. But until he gets back I guess we wont know the full truth so no point in speculating.


If so then he would of had the flight tickets to prove that he wasn't even in Brazil let alone the permits. I'm curious why they were so quick to ship the specimens off to the museum in militant fashion if the spiders were not even taken from there! 

If his only wrong doing was that the plane was merely diverted then I cannot see how it would even get to court. 

What a shitty situation to be in regardless. 

At least I know why half the spiders he sent me were dead on arrival if they've been thrown around in a suitcase over the Atlantic.


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## corpselight

typical, "rescuing" "illegally" collected pets by sticking them in alcohol
an animal rights group would do no better and let them go in the wrong country or something. idiots.

basically this sounds really fishy. he did nothing illegal, so Brazil's legal system is obviously pure crap!


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## steveyruss

corpselight said:


> typical, "rescuing" "illegally" collected pets by sticking them in alcohol
> an animal rights group would do no better and let them go in the wrong country or something. idiots.
> 
> basically this sounds really fishy. he did nothing illegal, so Brazil's legal system is obviously pure crap!


Yeh it is a sad story either way. By the sounds of it though he didn't declare it at their customs what he had and where he had gotten them knowing that Brazil has strict laws on all of those species. It's easy to see why their police force thought that they had a big catch with news coming from reputable sources like The Guardian. 

Moral of the story: Don't keep spiders in a suitcase especially if passing through Brazil.


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## Elaine R

joeyboy said:


> TSS SAVE THEM!


That would be funny if it wasn't so ironic :lol2:


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## corpselight

yeah, guess it's best to be open but then he may've thought he'd avoid all this fuss.

hopefully the facts come out...otherwise the hobby could be damaged somewhat, if only by reputation or the action of "do-gooders" like animal rights groups (may their faces melt)


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## GRB

What an odd situation.

Yet again however, the real story has been clouded by what sells newspapers. 

An unfortunate situation. Until the other side of the story comes out however, I don't think it is wise to judge negatively. We'll probably find "Suitcase" is a another fallacy too.


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## joeyboy

Elaine R said:


> That would be funny if it wasn't so ironic :lol2:


aye I said that before the translated article with Lee in it emerged...:lol2:


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## luke1994

Read this, see philR's post ..

Guy tries to smuggle in 1000 T's! - Arachnophiles Forum


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## Colosseum

If he is ordered to pay £1.5m may be the end for TSS


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## Elaine R

Pied Piper said:


> If he is ordered to pay £1.5m may be the end for TSS


That will be 1.5 brazilian Real dollars so probably around 500,000 in our currency.


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## Baldpoodle

So if it is all above board and if that photo in the news paper report is Lee's spiders then:-
Why has he transported them in a suit case? Is it not the case that you have to follow IATA regulations
https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/IATA_Shippers_Certification.pdf
https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/IATA_Shippers_Instructions.pdf








when transporting animals by air? This means then that he must have tried to get them over by the normal tourist lugage means, so if it was all legit why do this?
Like I would think in 99% of all major Airports, an incoming flight that was then either ment to go on to somewhere else or, the payload was ment to go on to somewhere else, and if the paper work was there all that would have happened is the manifest and the animals welfare would have been checked and then sent on no bother. 
Sorry but the ONLY truth you are ever going to get out of this one is the version of the truth you wish to belive. 
You can't slate the guy for it though as all he was doing is trying to provide a service that we like to use when we buy the stuff from him. We create the demand he tries to provide an solution. Shame he got caught as there could have been some nice spiders on offer, but now......


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## Colosseum

When we used to transport livestock globally we had to have special boxes and passports for each item, and were held in special areas of the airport. Which on loading were put into a special hold which was heated.

To see a suitcase full like that and in a freezing cold hold something is dodgy to say the lease, and is also cruel.


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## Colosseum

Briton caught with spiders in bags | News


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## re-action

I don't like the sound of this, even if he had the right permits you don't shove 1000 T`s into a couple of suitcases. Not going to order anything from the spider shop until the facts are clearer but it doesn't sound good.


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## Doomgerbs

I suggest we all keep calm and don't sling mud. Most of us will have had dealings with Lee or TSS at some time or another and it is most unfair to find anyone guilty before the facts come to light.
It would seem likely that he is a victim of happenings beyond his control but until we can ask him directly any questions such as why use a suitcase all we will hear is half truths mixed with speculation.
One thing we can be comforted by, at least this is not a guy who's gone out and illegally bought/collected large quantities of spiders. It just typical of the press to distort the facts in order to get the story they want.
I don't think being sent to a museum automatically means they will be killed and preserved, it depends on the type of facility the museum has.
Time to step back and wait for developments I think.


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## Elaine R

Doomgerbs said:


> I suggest we all keep calm and don't sling mud. Most of us will have had dealings with Lee or TSS at some time or another and it is most unfair to find anyone guilty before the facts come to light.
> It would seem likely that he is a victim of happenings beyond his control but until we can ask him directly any questions such as why use a suitcase all we will hear is half truths mixed with speculation.
> One thing we can be comforted by, at least this is not a guy who's gone out and illegally bought/collected large quantities of spiders. It just typical of the press to distort the facts in order to get the story they want.
> I don't think being sent to a museum automatically means they will be killed and preserved, it depends on the type of facility the museum has.
> Time to step back and wait for developments I think.


I totally agree. It always amazes me too see how many people come up with theories rather than waiting for facts.


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## Baldpoodle

why use a suitcase? Oh come on there is being thick and there sticking your head in the sand hopeing it is not true or will go away. which one are you?



> One thing we can be comforted by, at least this is not a guy who's gone out and illegally bought/collected large quantities of spiders.


By no means am I saying he has but how are you so sure? Besides even if he was doing it all on the shadey who would have cared once they were up for sale in his shop? None of you people who would buy them thats for sure. When was the last time you brought a WC tarantula and asked to see the export/import permit to make sure it was legit or for that matter the CITES declaration for those Brachypelma you own. You owners of Macrothele calpeiana, have you got your documention? or you non licence holders of DWA species? Lets face it you only care because he was caught, otherwise who really gives a rats bum how your spiders get to you.*http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/spiders-inverts/280930-macrothele-calpeiana.html*


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## davieboi

re-action said:


> I don't like the sound of this, even if he had the right permits you don't shove 1000 T`s into a couple of suitcases. Not going to order anything from the spider shop until the facts are clearer but it doesn't sound good.


 to be honest it loked pretty well packed to me as they didnt have much room to move which would put them into a trance like state and they wouldnt be bashed about.

I will still use TSS as everything ive bought from him is well cared for and good condition and im sure he is one of the only people out there that has knowledge to bring in a number of animals such as spiders safely into the uk

rant over:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


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## Caz

Whether they were collected legally or not, they were not being transported legally by aircraft in a suitcase..


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## Ozgi

Ok, I can see why them being in a suitcase isn't ideal. 

But then is being sent in a parcel by Royal Mail the ideal conditions either?


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## corpselight

those spiders you mention, Baldpoodle, are captive bred these days.
so don't try to pull that hypocrisy card. and yes, most of us DO care.

and don't call people thick that know more of the situation, clearly, than you do. you're enjoying yourself speculating, but as more sensible people have said, wait for the facts.


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## Doomgerbs

Lee I am sure knows my views on Cb v Wc tarantulas from debates we have participated in on other forums and no I don't buy livestock that is Wc myself. But I have met the guy and chatted with him and I am not prepared to condemn anyone without evidence. If solid EVIDENCE came up that there were dodgy dealings I might have to change my views, obviously, but right now I stick to what I have said.
The translation of the Brazilian report is very poor and the photo looks staged so excuse me if I prefer to give Lee the benefit of the doubt until proof is provided that he has done something wrong.
Of course there will be people who see this as a 'where there's smoke there's fire' situation and there will be scandalmongers who will blow any little detail out of proportion but I hope most of you will have the sense to be healthily skeptical of the shaky 'evidence' so far presented.


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## WelshBoscOwner

*Impartial Rant*

I've been following this thread, I've only got a T and a scorp and have never dealt with TSS but a quick google shows just how dispicable and sensationalist our (muck-gathering, gutter-slime) tabloid 'newspapers' are:

1,000 spiders found in Brit’s in a suitcase | The Sun |News

Until all the facts are known, this article (if you can call it that) will only help ruin The Spider Shop, since it names the shop and location of the shop and (which has not been mentioned ANYWHERE else) they are claiming (quote) "was trying to take his haul - including the lethal Brazilian Wandering Spider - into the cabin"

Can someone do the world a favour and sue "News International" for false marketing, since they don't deal in news, just rumour, speculation and possibly slander with some of the tat they produce.

I don't agree with mass importing of any species, but I disagree far more with sensationalism just to shift tat which I wouldn't use for toilet paper, which could turn out to be untrue but still ruin the guy's business reputation forever. I just think things should have been kept private until all the facts in Brazil had been fully gathered.

Rant over.


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## kyledawelsh

got to say this has shocked me but i hope all works out for lee as he's a top guy i dont know the facts but i will say i personally i dont think he would have tried to "smuggle" these T's as he knows his stuff am sure it's just a bad bit of luck

hope to see him home soon :2thumb:


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## joeyboy

DAMN! Your right, It even describes the 900 spiders as bird-eaters. Inaccurate but it means their all tarantulas, so to claim he has Brazilian wandering spiders is ridiculous, the tarantulas aren't from Brazil their from Paraguay and he doesn't deal in DWA invertebrates anyway as far as I know.

FFS IT CALLS TARANTULAS LETHAL!

Ok that's it I'm emailing the "article" writer. It's a woman too. No offence ladies but she's probably added her own fear of spiders into this "lethal tarantulas, "what if they dropped on people heads!"(wtf luggage is UNDER you)


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## Lucifus

Yes the newspapers are taking a spin on it because they are f-ing idiots when it comes to T's. Yes they are blowing things out of proportion.

I suggest we wait till we hear from Lee before jumping to conclusions.


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## Baldpoodle

> those spiders you mention, Baldpoodle, are captive bred these days.
> so don't try to pull that hypocrisy card. and yes, most of us DO care.


Only when it suits you.:whistling2:



> and don't call people thick that know more of the situation, clearly, than you do. you're enjoying yourself speculating, but as more sensible people have said, wait for the facts.


naivety at it's very finest.:whistling2:

















*
*


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## GRB

joeyboy said:


> DAMN! Your right, It even describes the 900 spiders as bird-eaters. Inaccurate but it means their all tarantulas, so to claim he has Brazilian wandering spiders is ridiculous, the tarantulas aren't from Brazil their from Paraguay and he doesn't deal in DWA invertebrates anyway as far as I know.
> 
> FFS IT CALLS TARANTULAS LETHAL!
> 
> Ok that's it I'm emailing the "article" writer. It's a woman too. No offence ladies but she's probably added her own fear of spiders into this "lethal tarantulas, "what if they dropped on people heads!"(wtf luggage is UNDER you)


No offense, but what do you hope to achieve with an email? Until the whole story comes out how can you critisice the article?

The wandering spider - again, without evidence to the contrary, it must be treated as plausible. It seems unlikely but such activities do occur. 

Secondly, a permit to collect spiders in Paraguay does not prove either way if they were collected there solely or not. 

Frankly, your comments about it being written by a women should be left in your own head. Unless you know the writer, you have no idea what her motivations were (although its for _the sun_, and spin sells). 

I have been a longer term customer of TSS; as I said earlier it is best to hear both sides and await a resolution.


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## joeyboy

GRB said:


> No offense, but what do you hope to achieve with an email? Until the whole story comes out how can you critisice the article?
> 
> The wandering spider - again, without evidence to the contrary, it must be treated as plausible. It seems unlikely but such activities do occur.
> 
> Secondly, a permit to collect spiders in Paraguay does not prove either way if they were collected there solely or not.
> 
> Frankly, your comments about it being written by a women should be left in your own head. Unless you know the writer, you have no idea what her motivations were (although its for _the sun_, and spin sells).
> 
> I have been a longer term customer of TSS; as I said earlier it is best to hear both sides and await a resolution.


Well I just wanted to know why their article has something others don't, and it is the SUN we're talking about here. I'm surprised it didn't say something like "these spiders can get to 1ft long and jump 10ft!"

About Paraguay. It's just over at AP someone who knows more said he was meant to be flying from their to London, but got diverted n had to change at rio, and was obviously caught there, hence why I said they were Paraguay T's. Obviously that's subject to more info though.

Also again it is the SUN, motivations are obvious. Make it simple for their target audience, KEEP CAPS LOCK ON A LOT, and say cool things when the facts just aren't there. OMG OMG TARANTULAS ARE LETHAL U KNOW! OMG!


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## GRB

Was the post on Ap by Mark Pennell? He has posted the same on the T store boards. 

Again, permits do not constsitute proof. 

Yes it's the sun, which is why I am even more surprised people will waste time emailing them. You could get all the world's arachnologists to email her and she'd probably still ignore facts next time a spider gets found in some bananas.


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## joeyboy

GRB said:


> Was the post on Ap by Mark Pennell? He has posted the same on the T store boards.
> 
> Again, permits do not constsitute proof.
> 
> Yes it's the sun, which is why I am even more surprised people will waste time emailing them. You could get all the world's arachnologists to email her and she'd probably still ignore facts next time a spider gets found in some bananas.


Nah PhilR, the admin? I don't know who knows who there since I don't frequent it as much as I should. I forget...

But aye I guess your right about that, I wont bother trying, like talking to a brick wall I guess...:lol2:


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## shazlew

To be totally honest until Lee is home and able to speak for himself or someone knows facts thats not been so far stretched its hard to believe a word they type everyone should hold fire on any talk of this.
Sadly for him the storys been blown up people everyone was slagging this person who smuggled then so many changed views when it was someone we all knew! i for one am only posting as i feel its best till someone knows anything with a grain of truth to let this drop and give the guy a break!


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## Elaine R

Colin and I have been chatting about this and we both feel that threads like this are going to end up causing more issues. Right now we can both see that this media digging and printed news articles may end up causing a frenzy that none of us as hobbyists want or need.

Threads like these especially with the news organisations looking for a new bit of information for their article's will easily lead them to these forum's.

There are already too many different societies watching these forum's trying to find anything they can use as evidence in their fight against us hobbyists keeping exotic pets. And untoward, speculative comments on threads like these will just add fuel to the fire. This will have far reaching concequences for us all as keepers.


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## shazlew

Whole thread remove and anymore like would be best


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## george dobson

lol my mum called me up about this, lol why would you even try


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## Dan99

shazlew said:


> To be totally honest until Lee is home and able to speak for himself or someone knows facts thats not been so far stretched its hard to believe a word they type everyone should hold fire on any talk of this.
> Sadly for him the storys been blown up people everyone was slagging this person who smuggled then so many changed views when it was someone we all knew! i for one am only posting as i feel its best till someone knows anything with a grain of truth to let this drop and give the guy a break!


I do agrre with this comment.



george dobson said:


> lol my mum called me up about this, lol why would you even try


Well if he did do it Bye Bye TheSpiderShop lol


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## Graz

shazlew said:


> To be totally honest until Lee is home and able to speak for himself or someone knows facts thats not been so far stretched its hard to believe a word they type everyone should hold fire on any talk of this.
> Sadly for him the storys been blown up people everyone was slagging this person who smuggled then so many changed views when it was someone we all knew! i for one am only posting as i feel its best till someone knows anything with a grain of truth to let this drop and give the guy a break!


I love you shaz you sexy bitch


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## jack_rep

shazlew said:


> Whole thread remove and anymore like would be best


lol why? People are entitled to be aware of the media attention towards this. People are smart enough to take the Sun with a pinch of salt. 

Ive dealt with the guy, spoke at BTS and he seems like a very clued up and genuinely nice chap. Had everything from spider posters, to equipment to spiders themselves.

Thing is though, genuine or not. Why on earth would you transport that many spider, and spiders infact, in that manner.

No disrespect to the chap, but he either did something pretty shady, or pretty stupid.


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## garlicpickle

jack_rep said:


> People are smart enough to take the Sun with a pinch of salt.


They are?

I wonder why so many people buy it then.


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## Arachnoking

If this was all legit why was they being hid in a suitcase? Screams suspicion really. why was he not transporting them propperly?

Says it all really lol but we shall see. been Told that he "cuts corners"


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## 34531

Quite disgusted at what I've read currently. Can't wait to hear it from the horses mouth. I don't agree with WC, and would never purposely buy, I DO care where my spiders come from. Whether legit with correct paperwork or not I won't be buying from TSS (not that I did before anyhow) - I don't agree with any of the points raised in the papers or news articles - I think it's disgusting that that many spiders are taken at once, tried to be "smuggled" on board in :censor: hand luggage, and I think the majority of you will agree with me


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## 34531

Arachnoking said:


> If this was all legit why was they being hid in a suitcase? Screams suspicion really. why was he not transporting them propperly?
> 
> Says it all really lol but we shall see. *been Told that he "cuts corners"*



So what else then I wonder?


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## jack_rep

garlicpickle said:


> They are?
> 
> I wonder why so many people buy it then.


Not wanting to sound all pro democracy and soppy,
But you cant censor the media that you dont agree with just because you worry the majority of people are stupid enough to believe it.

If the masses believe that crap, the answer is to educate the masses. Not ban the sun!


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## Colosseum

Its all over the papers do a google search even the more professional respected rag has the story


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## garlicpickle

I never said the Sun should be banned. I was just querying your assumption that "most people" don't believe what's in it 

I like the Sun myself. I take old ones out of my neighbour's recycling bin for my snakes to crap on.


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## jack_rep

garlicpickle said:


> I never said the Sun should be banned. I was just querying your assumption that "most people" don't believe what's in it


yeah i know fair point. was just making a general assumption.

The sun is a joke though. My grandad reads it and comes out with things it says and its just cringe worthy.

Fact is though, strip back all the bull and sensationalism in the article and go to the bare points it makes. Lee... suitcase full of spiders.... Brazilian airport customs. Dont need a sun writer to wrap that up in a way that looks bad do you? lol


----------



## joeyboy

jack_rep said:


> yeah i know fair point. was just making a general assumption.
> 
> The sun is a joke though. My grandad reads it and comes out with things it says and its just cringe worthy.
> 
> Fact is though, strip back all the bull and sensationalism in the article and go to the bare points it makes. Lee... suitcase full of spiders.... Brazilian airport customs. Dont need a sun writer to wrap that up in a way that looks bad do you? lol


problem is unlike other articles it makes out tarantulas to be lethal. It says lethal cargo under the photo and suggests they'd escape mid-flight and fall on people...do they not realise luggage is below?

Also it says he had brazilian wandering spiders...other articles say 900 "bird-eaters" which obviously means T's. A possibly lethal DWA spider is another kettle of fish all together.


----------



## jack_rep

joeyboy said:


> problem is unlike other articles it makes out tarantulas to be lethal. It says lethal cargo under the photo and suggests they'd escape mid-flight and fall on people...do they not realise luggage is below?
> 
> Also it says he had brazilian wandering spiders...other articles say 900 "bird-eaters" which obviously means T's. A possibly lethal DWA spider is another kettle of fish all together.


yeah true, like i said, is full of bollocks

Have the bbc version if you prefere...

BBC NEWS | UK | Spider 'smuggler' arrested in Rio

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8360438.stm


----------



## Captainmatt29

Anything to get a story out eh, i had a good experience with TSS and i do hope lee gets back in one piece to explain what on earth happened although on AP they have a reasonable explanation as to the situation.


----------



## tesse.t

Can anyone else see a sequel to "snake's on a plane":lol2: 


(sorry, not the place for jokes but had to be said!)


----------



## Danhalen

Personally, I think that there is far too much speculation based on such little reputed "fact".

In my view, all it is doing is fuelling flames that could prove very damaging to our precious hobby.


----------



## Alex M

Unbelievable.

I've bought a few spiders from Lee in the past, including Macrothele calpeiana and he's always been a top notch gent. I have to say the suitcase business really does not look good at all. Innocent until proven guilty though.


----------



## joeyboy

what I've noticed is all papers have gone with Ardern is the surname, so is a typo none have researched to correct or..what?(correct spelling for TSS Lee is Arden I thought.)


----------



## jack_rep

Fingers crossed that AP explanation (as mentioned above) is true! Would be such a shame to see such a good supplier go off the market.


----------



## atum

jack_rep said:


> Fingers crossed that AP explanation (as mentioned above) is true! Would be such a shame to see such a good supplier go off the market.


Can anyone sum up the AP explanation for me? Taken me long enough to catch up with this thread.


----------



## SiUK

forever_20one said:


> Quite disgusted at what I've read currently. Can't wait to hear it from the horses mouth. I don't agree with WC, and would never purposely buy, I DO care where my spiders come from. Whether legit with correct paperwork or not I won't be buying from TSS (not that I did before anyhow) - I don't agree with any of the points raised in the papers or news articles - I think it's disgusting that that many spiders are taken at once, tried to be "smuggled" on board in :censor: hand luggage, and I think the majority of you will agree with me


WC spiders are very very common in the hobby, if you buy adults from petshops chances are they are WC, there are alot of people breeding now but even still, theres alot of WC spids


----------



## spudsgirl

I have personally bought from the spider shop and am hoping that there is a reasonable explanation for this, and I am not one to believe everything that you read in the papers. I do hope its not what every one is thinking but I think until such a time when the person himself gives his side of the story am gonna keep an open mind.


----------



## Elaine R

Danhalen said:


> Personally, I think that there is far too much speculation based on such little reputed "fact".
> 
> In my view, all it is doing is fuelling flames that could prove very damaging to our precious hobby.


I agree completely. The news articles at the moment are the only source of information for most of us but that doesnt mean its factual.

I'm absolutely astounded at the speculation in a lot of the posts on here. This kind of speculation is just what is needed to add to their fight to stop the ownership of exotic animals that we all enjoy caring for in our hobby. It can have far reaching conosequences for us all.

Come on folk's.....think before you type.


----------



## Muze

To be honest the only one thats done damage to the hobby here is Lee. 

There simply is no excuse for shipping them the way he did, even if he did have permits and thats going by what the BBC have reported.

The suitcase thing has been mentioned in every report, so cant see that being wrong imo.


----------



## garlicpickle

SiUK said:


> WC spiders are very very common in the hobby, if you buy adults from petshops chances are they are WC, there are alot of people breeding now but even still, theres alot of WC spids


Anyone here who has ever bought an adult chile rose, an adult T. blondi, adult cobalt blue, Aphonopelma sp "New River", adult Avic avic etc etc - unless you know for sure who bred it, you can be almost certain it's wild-caught.

It didn't travel business class to get here either.

This is precisely why slings of hard-to-breed species such as M. balfouri and P. metallica should go to experienced breeders who have a reasonable chance of setting up a captive breeding program, so that future collecting from the wild can be reduced.

So before people get all moralistic and jump on the bandwagon of condemning Lee or anyone else for bringing WC spiders over for the pet trade, remember that there wouldn't be any Ts available to buy at all if this had not been done in the past.


----------



## Muze

garlicpickle said:


> Anyone here who has ever bought an adult chile rose, an adult T. blondi, adult cobalt blue, Aphonopelma sp "New River", adult Avic avic etc etc - unless you know for sure who bred it, you can be almost certain it's wild-caught.
> 
> It didn't travel business class to get here either.
> 
> This is precisely why slings of hard-to-breed species such as M. balfouri and P. metallica should go to experienced breeders who have a reasonable chance of setting up a captive breeding program, so that future collecting from the wild can be reduced.
> 
> So before people get all moralistic and jump on the bandwagon of condemning Lee or anyone else for bringing WC spiders over for the pet trade, remember that there wouldn't be any Ts available to buy at all if this had not been done *in the past*.


Doesnt need to be done now for these sp.

And they may not have travelled business class, but there are strict regs on how you ship animals...suitcase isnt one of em


----------



## Colosseum

Muze said:


> Doesnt need to be done now for these sp.
> 
> And they may not have travelled business class, but there are strict regs on how you ship animals...suitcase isnt one of em



Precisely Abi, its illegal to even ship these in anything other than the proper airfreight boxes which are passed on inspection, these would not of been passed also they were in normal hold which is wrong anyway. 

Just for the record Lisa you have mentioned Aphonopelmas in your post i know where they were sourced and can tell you they come proper legally.


----------



## garlicpickle

I'm not arguing with the suitcase thing - although I would prefer to wait until Lee gets back and this is properly explained before passing judgement.

Although there's no need for CF royal pythons anymore either, but that still happens and thousands of people buy them every year despite the appalling way they are transported.

But the WC vs CB debate. It's easy to start slinging mud now, but I didn't see anyone questioning the origins of their lovely Aphonopelma New Rivers when they were for sale on TSS a while back. 

The hobby has established a good population of CB Brachypelmas since Mexico closed its borders for export. But it's easier and quicker and cheaper to bring in adults of species from other countries than it is to wait for slow-growing species to mature and breed in order to set up captive breeding programs, and all the while the "pet trade" demand is there, it'll continue to happen.


----------



## Muze

From TSS website: 

*Import: *
We have regular consignments of captive bred spiders with new species in stock each week. We also import through out the year from: Guyana, Guatemala, Chile, Surinam, Peru, USA, Tanzania, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Malaysia, Japan, Taiwan, PNG, Australia, Indonesia and China.
*Export:*
We offer worldwide shipping on wholesale orders which are subject to a Minimum order. Wholesale orders are shipped from London Heathrow Airport and there are no box and packing charges. References are available in most countries. 

So you know what you are getting when you buy from them. Thats why no one complained...its up there in black and white

But you still expect them to conform to shipping laws, which are there for the animals benefit and legally they are required to also.


----------



## Chris Newman

I do not know Mr Arden or any more information about the current situation. However, before he is condemned out of hand it would be worth knowing all the ‘facts’ first! The media always love these kind of stories and in there enthusiasm to get the story out very often neglect to present a balanced overview of events. 

However, one point I would like to comment on, and that is the trade in wild caught spiders. Sustainable Utilization is one of the cornerstones of conservation, without it many more species and indeed vital habitat would be lost. Ex-situe captive breeding contributes little on the ground conservation benefit. Indeed increasing captive breeding is being regarded as detrimental. Most people have head of CITES and broadly understand what it is! How many people are aware of CBD?

The Rio Convention on Biodiversity enshrines ‘genetic rights’ to the country of origin. In other words by breeding and selling captive bred animals who’s genetic resource is owned by the donor country you are in effect ‘stealing’ from the country. As an example, if you breeding _Brachypelma smithi_, you are stealing resources [money] from Mexico. This is perhaps an issue that those who are opposed to the trade in wild caught animals should conceder!


----------



## Muze

Would be interesting to know what bird eaters he was trying to bring back and wether we have a decent supply already in captivity.:whistling2:


----------



## Muze

Muze said:


> Would be interesting to know what bird eaters he was trying to bring back and wether we have a decent supply already in captivity.:whistling2:


Anyways as pointed out if you buy from TSS its there in black and white that you are more than likely getting WC.

The bit that has angered me is the incorrect packaging/shipping that could be seen as being done to save money at the spids expense.

(meant to edit my post instead of posting another....its early lol)


----------



## penda

i cant believe this you load of backstabbers (except corpse and other poeple that probably use bn as we are open minded) all you have to go on is what papers are saying , because "they always tell the truth" you branded him guilty when he probably ahs done barely anything worng , and even if he did big deal , i dont see any of you moaning when your buying new species of him , or when you get a good deal out of him etc etc , dissapointed in you all but what should i expect on here?


----------



## Muze

I dont buy off TSS for various reasons...so im not a backstabber :2thumb:

I prefer to know as much as possible where my spids come from and the conditions they have been kept in for a considerable amount of time (LTC)

I usually always buy from private sales.

Anyone caught putting animal welfare second (if that is the case and i sincerely hope it isnt) deserves all they get.


----------



## MissyBats

other countries have funny rules, and a rule for one may not even count in Brazil...
I hope he sorts it, their shop is so credible and I will still use them 
it's just so bad he's in that situation!
and I hope it doesn't affect the shop!
hope their next collection and person gets back ok!
xxx


----------



## spider_mad

This thread is pathetic! Before everyone looks down their nose and sling mud around how a bit of respect and courtesy towards the guy. One of the BTS members heard from Lee at the time and apparantly wasnt even near 1000 t's and was only fined £1500 so a little bit too embelished and sensationalised really.

It doesn't help the hobby with theorists and holier than thou people are only giving more dirt for the press to get and every forum regarding tarantulas in UK and US are being watched by a lot of new guests [ahem], funnily enough not long after the story came out.


----------



## Muze

spider_mad said:


> This thread is pathetic! Before everyone looks down their nose and sling mud around how a bit of respect and courtesy towards the guy. One of the BTS members heard from Lee at the time and apparantly wasnt even near 1000 t's and was only fined £1500 so a little bit too embelished and sensationalised really.
> 
> It doesn't help the hobby with theorists and holier than thou people are only giving more dirt for the press to get and every forum regarding tarantulas in UK and US are being watched by a lot of new guests [ahem], funnily enough not long after the story came out.


So you are saying he did ship them in a suitcase?

If so he deserves everything he gets...doesnt matter if its 1 or 1000 spids


----------



## spicewwfc

If you check the TSS website you will notice that there are none of the Euathlus genus left in stock most of which especially the blue femur are wild caught in Paraguay. 
Do you not think its likely that he was collecting these spiders from Paraguay and had an unexpected stop in Brazil? 
Brazil has serious laws surrounding the *import* and *export *of fauna and flora if he had declared them at customs they would most likely confiscate them even if he had the correct paperwork.
So my theory is that he foolishly decided not to declare them and tried to get away with it.
I hope that this is the case. If so and he can prove it I'm sure he wont have to pay the R$1.5m.

Good luck Lee I hope everything works out.


----------



## MissyBats

Muze said:


> From TSS website:
> 
> *Import: *
> We have regular consignments of captive bred spiders with new species in stock each week. We also import through out the year from: Guyana, Guatemala, Chile, Surinam, Peru, USA, Tanzania, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Malaysia, Japan, Taiwan, PNG, Australia, Indonesia and China.
> *Export:*
> We offer worldwide shipping on wholesale orders which are subject to a Minimum order. Wholesale orders are shipped from London Heathrow Airport and there are no box and packing charges. References are available in most countries.
> 
> So you know what you are getting when you buy from them. Thats why no one complained...its up there in black and white
> 
> But you still expect them to conform to shipping laws, which are there for the animals benefit and legally they are required to also.


I think if I was ordering 500+ T's I wouldn't expect to have to pay P&P for a large order, I would expect most trade orders have lower if not no P&P to encourage wholesale orders
however their normal orders are as follows:

*Foreign Orders:*​ Our online shop only accepts UK orders. However we are more than happy to do foreign orders. Please e-mail us at [email protected] with details of what you are interested in and we will let you know about the various possible shipping options. 

the person who orders abroad will pay the suitable postage and shipping
well I can't judge, I have a beautiful healthy WC Aphonopelma Chalcodes, and they must have treated her well as when I talk she comes over to my voice! lol she is calm and very very sweet! and she was also very well fed when I got her!
from what I know they do not put the welfare of teh spiders 2nd at all, otherwise they wouldn't mail you when the spider has been posted so you know it is arriving teh next day, or give you advice to have it delivered to your work if you work, or specify a particular day to post when you know you will be in to sign for the order (next day delivery).
99% of my spiders are from them and I will continue to use them as I said before 
x


----------



## Muze

MissyBats said:


> I think if I was ordering 500+ T's I wouldn't expect to have to pay P&P for a large order, I would expect most trade orders have lower if not no P&P to encourage wholesale orders
> however their normal orders are as follows:
> 
> *Foreign Orders:*​ Our online shop only accepts UK orders. However we are more than happy to do foreign orders. Please e-mail us at [email protected] with details of what you are interested in and we will let you know about the various possible shipping options.
> 
> the person who orders abroad will pay the suitable postage and shipping
> well I can't judge, I have a beautiful healthy WC Aphonopelma Chalcodes, and they must have treated her well as when I talk she comes over to my voice! lol she is calm and very very sweet! and she was also very well fed when I got her!
> *from what I know they do not put the welfare of teh spiders 2nd at all*, otherwise they wouldn't mail you when the spider has been posted so you know it is arriving teh next day, or give you advice to have it delivered to your work if you work, or specify a particular day to post when you know you will be in to sign for the order (next day delivery).
> 99% of my spiders are from them and I will continue to use them as I said before
> x


Well time will tell:hmm:


----------



## Ozgi

Why did he go over there to get them in person? 

Surely he could have had his contact send them over to him?

How much money are they making on their T's if he can afford a plane ticket to Paraguay and back! lol.


----------



## zoe6660

i dont know the full story but i have seen worst and i have ordered loads of times from lee and i havnt had any problems really, it isnt right but if u watch tv sometimes it shows lizards and other animals in bad was and even dead. but most of the animals are from the wild and people will do what ever they can to get them here and most of us buy them i have had about 3 WC chilean roses.


----------



## Danhalen

Personally, I really don't see why this thread is still open. There's no real debate, no real facts being discussed, and far too much mudslinging for no good reason.

In regards to the suitcase issues, if true, then it's not ideal. But I imagine that the spiders would have spent far less time packed in the suitcase than your average spider spends in a parcel from Europe, or sometimes even Royal mail.

I think RFUK should take the high ground like other respected forums and lock the thread until more valid information comes to light.


----------



## Muze

Danhalen said:


> Personally, I really don't see why this thread is still open. There's no real debate, no real facts being discussed, and far too much mudslinging for no good reason.
> 
> In regards to the suitcase issues, if true, then it's not ideal. But I imagine that the spiders would have spent far less time packed in the suitcase than your average spider spends in a parcel from Europe, or sometimes even Royal mail.
> 
> I think RFUK should take the high ground like other respected forums and lock the thread until more valid information comes to light.


Spiders from euorpe are sent well packed and with heat (the ones we get are anyway). Not in a freezing plane cargo hold


----------



## GRB

This was posted on the T store boards, quoted from Steve Nunn:



> Hello all,
> 
> The media can be deceiving, however the response that Mark related directly from Lee, is not accurate either (read for yourselves the accurate number taken from the wild, counting those in eggsacs and it is clearer why Lee might have taken such a risk, thousands of entities is accurate). This is no attack on Mark or the BTS and is not to be treated as such, but taken for truth on the matter about an illegal activity carried out in Brazil. The Brazilian authorities are watching this thread with scrutiny (yes, they keep an eye on all the tarantula hobby boards, for obvious reasons) and feel a need to clarify and provide some accuracy on the matter is duely needed. I was asked to relay this from Dr. Rogerio Bertani at Instituto Butantan, Sao Paulo, Brazil, on his behalf.
> 
> _"I can tell you the following information from both wildlife authority IBAMA and Museu Nacional researchers, that Lee Arden was caught with TWO BIG suitcases completelly filled with small boxes consisting of multiple cartons and adesive tape. Many spiders had enlarged the holes made in the cartons (of course) and were loose in the suitcases. MANY were dead and many were also with eggsacs. The researchers that received the spiders gave me a call and were both furious and saddened to see so many specimens (900), and eggsacs in so such bad condition. If this man is not a smuggler, what is him then? I read the posts in this link and someone has already said: What about the IATA regulations? And I agree, yes, IF he had permits to import so many spiders, they should have been shipped via air cargo, not carried inside personal luggage that is not suitable or humane for live animals! Sometimes, I import live spider via air cargo when coming in with permits and many from my fieldwork, but I strictly adhere to the IATA regulations! Why were Arden's tarantulas inside two suitcases and inside badly made carton boxes tied with adesive tape, if he had permits? There are specific air transport regulations for transporting live animals. I have seen the official photos of these seized tarantulas and have spoken with the people who have the seized tarantulas and have helped with their identification. If you have any further questions, you may contact me directly at; [email protected] "_
> 
> On behalf of Rogerio,
> Steve


----------



## invertasnakes

Danhalen said:


> Personally, I really don't see why this thread is still open. There's no real debate, no real facts being discussed, and far too much mudslinging for no good reason.
> 
> In regards to the suitcase issues, if true, then it's not ideal. But I imagine that the spiders would have spent far less time packed in the suitcase than your average spider spends in a parcel from Europe, or sometimes even Royal mail.
> 
> I think RFUK should take the high ground like other respected forums and lock the thread until more valid information comes to light.


2nd That one! :2thumb::2thumb:


----------



## Muze

Thanks for posting the GRB :2thumb:

And it seems to confirm them being transported incorrectly


----------



## GRB

Muze said:


> Thanks for posting the GRB :2thumb:
> 
> And it seems to confirm them being transported incorrectly


It was from Steve Nunn, and I think the source is legit. 

Again however, I encourage people not to slander until the entire truth emerges.


----------



## StrictlyMorelia

Hope the Brazilian government enforce the fine and if he is not able to pay that they convert the amount of fine unpaid into time to be served.

Would be nice also if the UK authorities get involved and do some further investigating this side of the pond.


----------



## tokay

Nobody knows the facts , imo its best to wait to hear the story from the man himself. 
Dont believe every thing to see in the papers or the internet....
up until now everybody had nothing but good things to say about Lee & the spidershop, now there all jumping on the band wagon and slating the guy. :whip:


----------



## invertasnakes

Just wanted to say in no way do i condone what Lee has "ALLEGEDLY DONE" (and until we know more it is ALLEGEDLY), i think its amazing how quickly people will turn their back on someone. I personally have never ordered from Lee/TSS but from what I've seen on past post about them its all be excellent reviews and praise. But as soon as something happens hundreds if not 1000's of you slag him to the back teeth. Yeah fair enough if he's found to of done this then he'll be punished accordingly but even so, give the guy a break. 

As said before this thread should be locked until ALL the fact have been released and disclosed. And for everyones sake......don't believe everything you read, I've read 7 or 8 different reports in newspapers on this and the amount that they differ is unbelievable!!


----------



## MissyBats

everything I have read differs in EVERY detail... hmmm very accurate these news reporters sources!
if they are all different then how can they all be true?
I just think if it comes to light it wasn't as bad, how many would apologise, and if it is true then how may are gonna feel so self satisfied behind their computer desks with the "I told you so" mentality
what that proves I have no idea, other than self satisfaction.
at the end of the day whatever truth there is and whatever crime he will pay accordingly so it should be left at that...
there's people who do far worse and get 2nd chances...


----------



## jack_rep

garlicpickle said:


> But the WC vs CB debate. It's easy to start slinging mud now,


I dont think its an issue of whether he should be imported WC or not. its that its alleged he didnt do it legally, or morally.



Chris Newman said:


> However, before he is condemned out of hand it would be worth knowing all the ‘facts’ first!


 


penda said:


> i cant believe this you load of backstabbers (except corpse and other poeple that probably use bn as we are open minded) all you have to go on is what papers are saying , because "they always tell the truth" you branded him guilty when he probably ahs done barely anything worng


Yes will be nice to hear the facts from the horses mouth. But i think its a little nieve to think that a statement by someone accused of smuggling would be nessersarily always be 100% accurate. Yes we havent heard the other side of the story, but if we were to automatically take the word of people convicted of offences then there wouldnt be many criminal convinctions would they?

Fact is no one except the people investigating and those involved this will ever know 100% what actually happened. So as much as its daft to take newpaper reports as hard fact, its equally daft to do the same when we hear it from the horses mouth. 



tokay said:


> Nobody knows the facts , imo its best to wait to hear the story from the man himself.
> Dont believe every thing to see in the papers or the internet....
> up until now everybody had nothing but good things to say about Lee & the spidershop, now there all jumping on the band wagon and slating the guy. :whip:


People arnt slating him as far as ive read. Seems to me people are being pretty reserved and simply stating that if true, it shouldnt have happened. And whichever way you look at it, transporting spiders in a suitcase isnt the way they should be transported.


----------



## Danhalen

Muze said:


> Spiders from euorpe are sent well packed and with heat (the ones we get are anyway). Not in a freezing plane cargo hold


But many parcels take longer than a week to arrive, and the heat packs have expired long before then. I have also received adult females that have been packed so poorly by respected sellers, that their entire abdomen has been completely twisted around. I'm not saying I agree with the aparrent methods, but I don't see how they vastly differ from postage methods which are used all the time by European exporters.


----------



## snowgoose

This is beginning to sound like an invert version of "Snakes on a plane".

I have never experienced purchasing livestock from Lee, but have been very tempted to in the past. Whether he did commit the crime or not, if TSS keeps on running and has something I want, I will have no second thoughts about buying from him.


----------



## Poxicator

_"Teach not thy lip such scorn, for it was made for kissing lady, not for such contempt"_

It amazes me how people condemn the press for getting it wrong and then make speculation themselves in a public forum. Have we become the armchair judge, safe to condemn others and yet dismissing the fact we create the demand?

Lee has been instrumental in providing a huge variety of species and has actively encouraged breeding in the UK to provide a CB supply, and a supply from within the country of origin. Along with Gareth that UK CB market is improving and his site reflects those wishes. In Chile, he has organised spider breeding farms and obviously has a licence to export from a CITES governed country. It could be that the same situation has been set up in Paraguay or perhaps already exists in that country. Its also worth noting that although the corrected number is now 900 spiders it doesnt say what size. A sac from a L. parahybana would yeild more than that!

If the details are correct he had the appropriate licence but perhaps his decision to keep them as hand luggage wasn't the best. It could be that previous situations and losses encouraged him to do so. We don't know. All we have is newspaper reports and this certainly isn't the first of its kind. Anyone remember the Germans earlier this year or the classic case in Africa?

Lisa, I believe A. New River were sourced from a small area that was going to be completely redeveloped. In short, had they not been removed they would have been wiped out.


----------



## garlicpickle

Poxicator said:


> Lisa, I believe A. New River were sourced from a small area that was going to be completely redeveloped. In short, had they not been removed they would have been wiped out.


I wasn't aware of that, so perhaps it wasn't the best example to pick! But I was using those as an instance of people happily buying WC stock from Lee, some of those who are most vociferous in condemning him now.


----------



## Poxicator

Absolutely Lisa


----------



## joeyboy

Poxicator said:


> If the details are correct he had the appropriate licence but perhaps his decision to keep them as hand luggage wasn't the best. .


I haven't reached a judgement yet but surely that is a bit of an understatement?

Reading the message from the Dr. Rogerio Bertani it sounds as if he had actually organised for them to be shipped via air on a transport designed for animal transportation, as required in IATA regulation, this wouldn't have happened and the Brazilian authorities would have had no problem.

Also sad to here many were dead and because of the poor cardboard packets T's had escaped into the suitcase and one assumed were crushed.

Obviously every party(including Lee) has it in their interest to spin this a certain way, so I suppose it may be hard to know the exact circumstances. Though the message from Dr. Rogerio is the most reliable source so far I'd say, beats newspaper headlines anyway.

I suppose really people were being niave if they didn't think some WC animals were imported under these conditions, especially back in the day when exotics were quite a new thing. Now though with all agencies and paperwork to make things legal and have animals in slightly better conditions(not up to -40c in a luggage hold), I'd expect professional importers to import livestock by the book.


----------



## Baldpoodle

> I've bought a few spiders from Lee in the past, including Macrothele calpeiana


That are a European protected species and as such the trade in them is restricted if you have not got the corect documetation.Has he? Have you?
SpringerLink - Journal Article


----------



## ReptileSeeker

Stop defending him. 

Most people seem to forget that there are special and proper ways to transport live stock abroad that doesn't involve suitcases. Lee Arden is a cruel and greedy prat for trying to transporting the spiders around as luggage. It is against the law to transport animals in this way. Pure laziness on his behalf and it gave the Brazilian authorities the right to intervene. It is morally wrong not to mention unlawful. I'm glad to hear that his flight was diverted to Brazil to silence this menace otherwise he would of gotten away with it. I wonder how many trips to Paraguay this guy has done over the years shoving spiders down his pants? Disgraceful. I don't understand how anyone can defend this idiot!


----------



## SiUK

ReptileSeeker said:


> Stop defending him.
> 
> Most people seem to forget that there are special and proper ways to transport live stock abroad that doesn't involve suitcases. Lee Arden is a cruel and greedy prat for trying to transporting the spiders around as luggage. It is against the law to transport animals in this way. Pure laziness on his behalf and it gave the Brazilian authorities the right to intervene. It is morally wrong not to mention unlawful. I'm glad to hear that his flight was diverted to Brazil to silence this menace otherwise he would of gotten away with it. I wonder how many trips to Paraguay this guy has done over the years shoving spiders down his pants? Disgraceful. I don't understand how anyone can defend this idiot!


you know that for a fact do you?


----------



## Danhalen

Why on earth is this thread still open?


----------



## SiUK

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, I think its wrong for him to be hung drawn and quartered without all the information, which is what some people are doing, but I dont think the thread should be shut.


----------



## _TiMiSdRuNk_

I'll happily defend him, maybe he's having trouble during this crappy financial crisis? And the tax to bring those animals in this country would be sky high no doubt same as everything else in this country! I've bought off this guy before in the past and got my orders on time and in very good condition! So if he can get himself back on track from this i'll happily buy from him again


----------



## jack_rep

SiUK said:


> its wrong for him to be hung drawn and quartered without all the information, which is what some people are doing, but I dont think the thread should be shut.


Couldnt agree more. Slating the man without hearing his side of the story isnt something id agree with. But people are entitled know whats been going on. After all, a good number of people on this forum, including myself, have bought spiders from Lee over the years. *If* animals are being shipped in sub standard conditions, beneath the radar of the law, then the buyers of these goods have a reasonably right to know about it.


----------



## Danhalen

SiUK said:


> I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, I think its wrong for him to be hung drawn and quartered without all the information, which is what some people are doing, but I dont think the thread should be shut.


Many of the posts on this thread are doing nothing but re-inforcing the negative opinions many people hold of our hobby, and possibly strengthening their resolve to essentially shut us down.



jack_rep said:


> *If* animals are being shipped in sub standard conditions, beneath the radar of the law, then the buyers of these goods have a reasonably right to know about it.


Yes, they most certainly do. But they aren't currently learning anything right now - Until such a time where Lee has either been proven innocent or guilty, then anyone reading this thread is learning nothing but _currently_ unsubstatiated opinions.


----------



## Dan99

Just shut the thread. No one can say anything yet untill he is back in the country...


----------



## Muze

Danhalen said:


> But many parcels take longer than a week to arrive, and the heat packs have expired long before then. I have also received adult females that have been packed so poorly by respected sellers, that their entire abdomen has been completely twisted around. I'm not saying I agree with the aparrent methods, but I don't see how they vastly differ from postage methods which are used all the time by European exporters.



Well i can assure you that none of the people we buy off we have ever had this problem with (that spans a few yrs)

Maybe its because we use reputable sources and can state those methods you mention (bad packaging, using cheap postage) are not used by all european sellers.... because ours dont.


----------



## jack_rep

Danhalen said:


> Much of the posts on this thread are doing nothing but re-inforcing the negative opinions many people hold of our hobby, and possibly strengthening their resolve to essentially shut us down.


Personally i would have thought it would be better for the image of the hobby to publicly, as a group, condemn the accused conduct. I dont think doing that strengthens any negitive views. Just makes it very clear that this isnt acceptable, or common practice.

But again that being said, before anyone gets a public lynching, best to wait to hear both sides of the story.


----------



## Muze

jack_rep said:


> Couldnt agree more. Slating the man without hearing his side of the story isnt something id agree with. But people are entitled know whats been going on. After all, a good number of people on this forum, including myself, have bought spiders from Lee over the years. *If* animals are being shipped in sub standard conditions, beneath the radar of the law, then the buyers of these goods have a reasonably right to know about it.


:2thumb::no1:


----------



## Jamie

I'm sure the speculators and rumour-mongers on this thread have bought spiders before without knowing their origins. Do you always ask where the spider you are buying comes from? No......ignorance is bliss when you're getting what you want.

When Lee gets back to the UK, I'm sure he will tell you all 1st hand what happened. I'll reserve my judgement until then, I like to know all the FACTS 1st.



Alex M said:


> Innocent until proven guilty though.


Perhaps the most sensible comment on this thread.


----------



## Higgt4

I have bought from TSS in the past, and if it survives this then I will probably buy from them in the future (if they have what I want).

I have no opinion on this matter, but I am enjoying reading everyones input, so I don't think that the thread should be closed.

Just my 2p's worth, like it or not :whistling2:


----------



## Baldpoodle

Jamie said:


> When Lee gets back to the UK, I'm sure he will tell you all 1st hand what happened. I'll reserve my judgement until then, I like to know all the FACTS 1st.


If he lied to Mark Pennell about such a little thing like numbers, then why would he tell you or anyone else the truth when or if he gets back?

just saying


----------



## Colosseum

Dont know why people are bangin on about WC or CB your missing the whole issue, its outlined on TSS website about this, the issue is the method used to transport these spiders which is illegal and damn right cruel.


----------



## Kamike

Wait until he get back he will tell us what exactly happend!!

Yeah and pigs fly

If he is being dodgy and illegal then when he gets back he will tell everyone what they want to hear not necissarily the truth. He has a business and a reputation to protect so dont count on hearing the truth.

Nice people can be rogues to.


----------



## Baldpoodle

I wonder if he will be selling the suit cases as he wont be needing them for a while lol


----------



## bilko

It's the first time he's been caught, why anyone has every held that bloke in high regard, I don't know, I've always found him shifty and unreliable, and selling males as females, imo, and I'm not the only one that thinks that. Anyone who would pack that amount of T's into a suitcase had that planned for profit only, with no regard for the T's, and as far as I'm concerned they should keep him over there. :devil:


----------



## joeyboy

bilko said:


> It's the first time he's been caught, why anyone has every held that bloke in high regard, I don't know, I've always found him shifty and unreliable, and selling males as females, imo, and I'm not the only one that thinks that. Anyone who would pack that amount of T's into a suitcase had that planned for profit only, with no regard for the T's, and as far as I'm concerned they should keep him over there. :devil:


hmm first I've heard of that, the feedback is largely positive. My only experience was ok in general though there was a bit of a delay, they'd not got record of the transaction even though money had left my account, after a while though I got my Lividum and all was well...:2thumb:


----------



## blood and guts

Regardless of the legality of the spiders he was transporting them in a illegal manner and this almost always means the animals themselves are illegal in orgin.
So some of you really think his side of the story will be the truth, we got another case of the good old rfuk hero worship brigade going on again here me thinks.
Yes theres more to the story we do not yet know but what is know is enough to dam him and as a hobby we should not be affraid to dam people who screw up. Brushing stuff under the carpet does us no favors and in fact makes us look bad. 
Ive bought from lee a few times over the years and i have questioned some of his stocks legality at one stage due to what he had avalibal. My gut feeling see me pull out of a deal for somthing id been after for a long long time.


----------



## steveyruss

joeyboy said:


> hmm first I've heard of that, the feedback is largely positive. My only experience was ok in general though there was a bit of a delay, they'd not got record of the transaction even though money had left my account, after a while though I got my Lividum and all was well...:2thumb:


Not really. I've had spiders dead on arrival although to be fair to him that could of been just from outside factors he couldn't control. More importantly I'm still waiting for an order I placed in August 08 to arrive here that was never even sent. I'm sure there are loads of people willing to give positive feedback but he isn't white as white, his antics in Brazil with the suitcase shows it. It was illegal whatever way you look at it because of the transport method he decided to use. There has been a lot of (bogus) information spouted on the internet about the topic but they all seem to have a common factor - a suitcase involved and someone named Lee Arden.


----------



## Poxicator

joeyboy said:


> I haven't reached a judgement yet but surely that is a bit of an understatement?


Not necessarily. As I suggested we don't know the circumstances, but it has been suggested that they were kept in a suitcase above. That suggests hand luggage, and therefore not in the -40s as you have suggested. Perhaps the timescale of IATA led him to transport these as hand luggage, perhaps they were inappropriately packaged by the suppliers and Lee decided to take them as hand luggage, its conjecture hence my "understatement". 

The point of dead spiders can also be misunderstood. Perhaps they were dead prior to Lee's involvement and the sole reason for keeping them was for ID purposes. We really don't know, but as I suggested we shouldn't sit happily as armchair judges.

I'm not going to speculate on International law or the thoughts of what has been presented from Brazil. I'll admit it doesnt look good though and the message from the Dr. Rogerio Bertani sounds rather damning.

BN, T-store, BTS and AP have all closed or removed the threads on this subject. Perhaps there are legal reasons or perhaps because they felt it was, or likely to, descend into unsavoury comments. Unfortunately that rather stifles conversation which I believe is the value of a forum. As so many people have had dealings with TSS its quite understandable that people are curious as to where the truth is. If the thread had been closed earlier perhaps we'd never had seen the reply from Dr. Rogerio Bertani nor given anyone the opportunity to provide an official reply. 
I therefore thank the admins for not closing it and if we keep it civil there shouldn't be any reason for them to do so.


----------



## Baldpoodle

> BN, T-store, BTS and AP have all closed or removed the threads on this subject. Perhaps there are legal reasons or perhaps because they felt it was, or likely to, descend into unsavoury comments. Unfortunately that rather stifles conversation which I believe is the value of a forum


The T-store hasn't closed or removed any threads on this matter.


----------



## joeyboy

Poxicator said:


> Not necessarily. As I suggested we don't know the circumstances, but it has been suggested that they were kept in a suitcase above. That suggests hand luggage, and therefore not in the -40s as you have suggested. Perhaps the timescale of IATA led him to transport these as hand luggage, perhaps they were inappropriately packaged by the suppliers and Lee decided to take them as hand luggage, its conjecture hence my "understatement".


hand luggage? That case looks pretty damn big for hand luggage, and Dr.Rogerio says "two BIG suitcases" full of T's,sacs etc, I haven't been on a flight that lets you have a big looking case(as on the photo) as hand luggage(think it was a max of 45-50cm long when I last went..), let alone two.


----------



## Tehanu

If the source quoted by GRB is credible (which I have no reason to doubt personally) then you can consider any aspect of the plan that was legal and accompanied by paperwork null and void once IATA shipping requirements are not met.

Your export permits only stand no matter where you are if you can continue to fulfill the standards of shipping and handling required.


----------



## Poxicator

Baldpoodle said:


> The T-store hasn't closed or removed any threads on this matter.


My apologies, I'd lost the plot (and the thread)


----------



## bilko

I fully agree that it has to be kept civil, and hope this thread is allowed to run, it gives people chance to express their thoughts and concerns, but at the end of the day this guy is out of order. He has no concern for the welfare of the spiders, that can clearly be seen, it again puts a spotlight on the hobby, with the bad press and the inevitible outcome, and could even end in further banning and restrictions being brought into place by other countries, and people who do these kind of things can only be driven by greed, to the detriment of everything and everyone in the hobby.


----------



## Baldpoodle

I wonder wether he enjoyed his holiday in Paraguay ....I would still rather return to Oahu(Hawaii) than Paraquay but thats just my choice.


----------



## squaddie

I'm not passing judgment on the issue, although reading that statement a few pages back has me worried. But I'm waiting for more evidence to come to light.

HOWEVER.

When Lee returns to this country and gives his side of the story, whats the guarantee he is going to tell the whole truth about the incident. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the majority of people in a similar situation would lie to try and save their reputation and/or business. 

What this thread doesn't need though, is people like Baldpoodle offering complete bollocks to the thread, such as, but not limited to: 



> I wonder wether he enjoyed his holiday in Paraguay ....I would still rather return to Oahu(Hawaii) than Paraquay but thats just my choice.


((Note: I'm not saying Lee is going to lie, before I am contacted by his lawyers for slander or w/e.)).


----------



## Baldpoodle

squaddie said:


> I'm not passing judgment on the issue, although reading that statement a few pages back has me worried. But I'm waiting for more evidence to come to light.
> 
> HOWEVER.
> 
> When Lee returns to this country and gives his side of the story, whats the guarantee he is going to tell the whole truth about the incident. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the majority of people in a similar situation would lie to try and save their reputation and/or business.
> 
> What this thread doesn't need though, is people like Baldpoodle offering complete bollocks to the thread, such as, but not limited to:
> 
> ((Note: I'm not saying Lee is going to lie, before I am contacted by his lawyers for slander or w/e.)).


Yawn!!!!!!!!


----------



## Danhalen

Baldpoodle said:


> Yawn!!!!!!!!


I'm currently finding your replies of a far more yawn inducing quality.


----------



## MrsGoatlegs

Danhalen said:


> I'm currently finding your replies of a far more yawn inducing quality.


I agree with that!


----------



## Baldpoodle

yes I mean this one was really bad:-
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/spiders-inverts/411019-1000-spiders-suitcase-4.html#post5080949

and this one well.....
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/spiders-inverts/411019-1000-spiders-suitcase-13.html#post5087736

and here...
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/spiders-inverts/411019-1000-spiders-suitcase-14.html#post5088626

the rest, well Im not going to say sorry to you for having a sence of humur however weak and or in bad taste it may seem to you so jog on.


----------



## Muze

I personally think there is far too much hero worship and people jumping up and down asking to close this thread going on. When thats pointed out to them they start picking at others commenting on this thread.

I think we should be able to discuss this and make our feelings known that we do not put up or like people that in anyway do this in our hobby (if that is what Lee has done). 

Exactly what message is it going to send the anti's if we do cover this up, dont talk about it and protect the said person otherwise?

And as several people have mentioned who knows if we will even get the truth when he gets back afterall he has what seems a very lucrative business to protect.


----------



## Alex M

Baldpoodle said:


> That are a European protected species and as such the trade in them is restricted if you have not got the corect documetation.Has he? Have you?
> SpringerLink - Journal Article


Lol

Have you seen how many EPS species are kept on this forum unlicensed? Have you seen how many are being sold on this forum unlicensed? Have you seen how many are being sold by shops and wholesalers unlicensed?

I'm probably one of the few in this country where DEFRA DO know what i keep as i was in correspondance with them the moment i heard about this legislation. They took issue with only one species i kept and that was it.

As it happens i do have a copy of the EPS paperwork at home (uncompleted), all 8 or so pages of it, but i'm reliably told it's not far off worthless anyway (and that was from one of the chaps that was involved with putting the legislation together). 

Anything else fat ginger bloke?


----------



## Baldpoodle

I wouldn't call me fat but I am over weight like most people who live by the sea. It's the fish and chips that does it.:gasp: But I'm not ginger as you can see in my photo but thats not my tash.


----------



## Danhalen

Muze said:


> I personally think there is far too much hero worship and people jumping up and down asking to close this thread going on. When thats pointed out to them they start picking at others commenting on this thread.
> 
> I think we should be able to discuss this and make our feelings known that we do not put up or like people that in anyway do this in our hobby (if that is what Lee has done).
> 
> Exactly what message is it going to send the anti's if we do cover this up, dont talk about it and protect the said person otherwise?
> 
> And as several people have mentioned who knows if we will even get the truth when he gets back afterall he has what seems a very lucrative business to protect.


In my opinion, I've not seen any hero worship at all. If the story transpires to be accurate, then we can all agree that it is unnacceptable, and as far as I'm aware, no one is defending any of Lee's potential actions - As both you and Roy know, I'm in no way a fan of WC spiders at all.

However, in regards to requests for the thread being closed, I don't believe that was an attampt at a cover up at all. Asking for the thread to be made private, or even deleted would be an attempt at covering the situation up. In my eyes it was an attempt at preventing the discussion degenerating into purility and personal attacks.


----------



## Muze

Last time i checked this is a free country with freedom of speech and a free press, with a freedom to discuss such stories.

To stop any such discussion would be censorship imo.

I havent really seen many personal attacks, just people concerned for the welfare of the spiders and concern for the hobby which is how it should be obviously they may have been strong comments as what has happened if true is despicable. I would want any anti's to know that as a hobby we in no way condone anything of this sort.

Again this isnt about WC vs CB as it was plain to see on TSS website that alot of their stuff was WC, this is about how stuff was transported.


----------



## Ozgi

Where's the proof that anti's read these, and other, forums? Everybody always goes on about it, but where is the evidence?


----------



## Muze

Ozgi said:


> Where's the proof that anti's read these, and other, forums? Everybody always goes on about it, but where is the evidence?


Quote:
Hello all,

The media can be deceiving, however the response that Mark related directly from Lee, is not accurate either (read for yourselves the accurate number taken from the wild, counting those in eggsacs and it is clearer why Lee might have taken such a risk, thousands of entities is accurate). This is no attack on Mark or the BTS and is not to be treated as such, but taken for truth on the matter about an illegal activity carried out in Brazil. *The Brazilian authorities are watching this thread with scrutiny (yes, they keep an eye on all the tarantula hobby boards, for obvious reasons)* and feel a need to clarify and provide some accuracy on the matter is duely needed. I was asked to relay this from Dr. Rogerio Bertani at Instituto Butantan, Sao Paulo, Brazil, on his behalf.

_"I can tell you the following information from both wildlife authority IBAMA and Museu Nacional researchers, that Lee Arden was caught with TWO BIG suitcases completelly filled with small boxes consisting of multiple cartons and adesive tape. Many spiders had enlarged the holes made in the cartons (of course) and were loose in the suitcases. MANY were dead and many were also with eggsacs. The researchers that received the spiders gave me a call and were both furious and saddened to see so many specimens (900), and eggsacs in so such bad condition. If this man is not a smuggler, what is him then? I read the posts in this link and someone has already said: What about the IATA regulations? And I agree, yes, IF he had permits to import so many spiders, they should have been shipped via air cargo, not carried inside personal luggage that is not suitable or humane for live animals! Sometimes, I import live spider via air cargo when coming in with permits and many from my fieldwork, but I strictly adhere to the IATA regulations! Why were Arden's tarantulas inside two suitcases and inside badly made carton boxes tied with adesive tape, if he had permits? There are specific air transport regulations for transporting live animals. I have seen the official photos of these seized tarantulas and have spoken with the people who have the seized tarantulas and have helped with their identification. If you have any further questions, you may contact me directly at; [email protected] "_

On behalf of Rogerio,
Steve


----------



## exopet

judging by the pics of the suitcase there is no way 1000 spiders would fit in there, never mind more, 

Lee had a legitimate license to collect the aforementioned spiders, 

people should wait until they are in full posession of ALL the facts instead of what they read in the Sun (which has previously said that B. smithi is deadly!!). or any other useless tabloid rag.

I will not comment more on this as I am not in possession of all the facts and so will not enter debate, just giving my opinion


----------



## Ozgi

Muze said:


> Quote:
> Hello all,
> 
> The media can be deceiving, however the response that Mark related directly from Lee, is not accurate either (read for yourselves the accurate number taken from the wild, counting those in eggsacs and it is clearer why Lee might have taken such a risk, thousands of entities is accurate). This is no attack on Mark or the BTS and is not to be treated as such, but taken for truth on the matter about an illegal activity carried out in Brazil. *The Brazilian authorities are watching this thread with scrutiny (yes, they keep an eye on all the tarantula hobby boards, for obvious reasons)* and feel a need to clarify and provide some accuracy on the matter is duely needed. I was asked to relay this from Dr. Rogerio Bertani at Instituto Butantan, Sao Paulo, Brazil, on his behalf.
> 
> _"I can tell you the following information from both wildlife authority IBAMA and Museu Nacional researchers, that Lee Arden was caught with TWO BIG suitcases completelly filled with small boxes consisting of multiple cartons and adesive tape. Many spiders had enlarged the holes made in the cartons (of course) and were loose in the suitcases. MANY were dead and many were also with eggsacs. The researchers that received the spiders gave me a call and were both furious and saddened to see so many specimens (900), and eggsacs in so such bad condition. If this man is not a smuggler, what is him then? I read the posts in this link and someone has already said: What about the IATA regulations? And I agree, yes, IF he had permits to import so many spiders, they should have been shipped via air cargo, not carried inside personal luggage that is not suitable or humane for live animals! Sometimes, I import live spider via air cargo when coming in with permits and many from my fieldwork, but I strictly adhere to the IATA regulations! Why were Arden's tarantulas inside two suitcases and inside badly made carton boxes tied with adesive tape, if he had permits? There are specific air transport regulations for transporting live animals. I have seen the official photos of these seized tarantulas and have spoken with the people who have the seized tarantulas and have helped with their identification. If you have any further questions, you may contact me directly at; [email protected] "_
> 
> On behalf of Rogerio,
> Steve


Lol, it was that post that made me wonder in the first place!


----------



## steveyruss

Dr. Rogerio Bertani assessment is pretty damning of Lee and the incident. I have little reason to doubt the validity of the email. I don't think Lee is an illegal spider smuggler even if his legality is void from the transport methods he used. He got caught out purely on chance. It makes you wonder how many times he has done this in the past. Looking at his site he does seem to take regular trips to that part of the world if you look at all of the rare and new species he can get. I guess at best his actions were naive and unorganised and at worst inhuman and cruel. Either way it was probably due to cost cutting. If eggsacks were apart of his little shipment then the estimation of 1000 is well off it is probably much higher.


----------



## Mark Pennell

> It worries me that the likes of Mark Pendell are willing to step up and defend these sorts of actions and even spread misinformation themselves.



Right first off I have not defended his actions and all my post on this matter have clearly stated that.

_Obviously I cannot condone the collection of such a quantity of spiders stated in the article (legally or illegally for that matter) for sale into the pet trade, but I am equally uncomfortable with the way the authorities/media have chosen to omit crucial details to “enhance” the story.

_If you want to accuse me of such things then I suggest you contact your lawyer as your going to need one!And if you going to to accuse me of this get my name right!!!!!!I have only suggested that it will best to handle all this when he has returned to defend himself... no one knows what has really gone on.. OK


Bloody hell 
Mark Pennell


----------



## ReptileSeeker

edit .........


----------



## GRB

Mark Pennell said:


> Right first off I have not defended his actions and all my post on this matter have clearly stated that.
> 
> _Obviously I cannot condone the collection of such a quantity of spiders stated in the article (legally or illegally for that matter) for sale into the pet trade, but I am equally uncomfortable with the way the authorities/media have chosen to omit crucial details to “enhance” the story._
> 
> Mark Pennell


Mark, what do you think of the correspondance from Dr.Bertani? Obviously the tabloid stuff is junk, but this is from an academic source. 

I'm not saying it resolves the "paperwork issues" as such (I'm aware of how easily people can fall prey to red tape), but it's certainly made me more aware of how much trust I put on the word of a seller regarding how specimens arrived in the country.


----------



## x Sarah x

I rest my case.


----------



## Elaine R

Mark Pennell said:


> Right first off I have not defended his actions and all my post on this matter have clearly stated that.
> 
> _Obviously I cannot condone the collection of such a quantity of spiders stated in the article (legally or illegally for that matter) for sale into the pet trade, but I am equally uncomfortable with the way the authorities/media have chosen to omit crucial details to “enhance” the story._
> 
> If you want to accuse me of such things then I suggest you contact your lawyer as your going to need one!And if you going to to accuse me of this get my name right!!!!!!I have only suggested that it will best to handle all this when he has returned to defend himself... no one knows what has really gone on.. OK
> 
> 
> Bloody hell
> Mark Pennell


Hear hear Mark. Its like banging your head on a brick wall trying to get people to understand the amount of misinformation thats being bandied around with regards to what has happened with Lee.

Like yourself and others, I will wait to find out the facts rather than listen to gossip and media sensationalism. No-one should be condemning anyone until the full facts are made available.


----------



## Muze

full facts from who tho?

Lee?

The Brazilians?

Who are we going to believe? :whistling2:


----------



## ReptileSeeker

Muze said:


> full facts from who tho?
> 
> Lee?
> 
> The Brazilians?
> 
> Who are we going to believe? :whistling2:


None.

He has a business to protect the Brazilian's want some propaganda to kid everyone that they are protecting their wildlife while they gut there rainforrests.

Make your own conclusions.


----------



## enlightenment

Why not just wait and see?

I have been wrongly accused of things in the past, and there are all too many people willing to get the pitchforks out, before was able to tell me side of the story.(no apology when they were shown to be wrong)

Let the authorities deal with this.

That is what they are there for, after all.

*shrugs*


----------



## enlightenment

Muze said:


> Last time i checked this is a free country with freedom of speech and a free press, with a freedom to discuss such stories.


This isn't a country though, it is a forum, so your point is a moot one.

If Lee if found guilty, then fine, he is found guilty.

Until that time, I am prepared to wait and see.

I have been a victim of the 'over the fence' gossip before, and it is not very nice.


----------



## Muze

enlightenment said:


> This isn't a country though, it is a forum, so your point is a moot one.
> 
> If Lee if found guilty, then fine, he is found guilty.
> 
> Until that time, I am prepared to wait and see.
> 
> I have been a victim of the 'over the fence' gossip before, and it is not very nice.


Its not a moot one as im entited to free speech, as is everyone else.


----------



## Genseric

Well I just spoke to Mark Pendell over in France, and he says he knows nothing about it, and that he hopes the fella caught doesn't drop the soap... indeed, he suggested that the arrested one ask the judge can he be put in a favela, is it would probably be safer...


----------



## ReptileSeeker

enlightenment said:


> This isn't a country though, it is a forum, so your point is a moot one.
> 
> If Lee if found guilty, then fine, he is found guilty.
> 
> Until that time, I am prepared to wait and see.
> 
> I have been a victim of the 'over the fence' gossip before, and it is not very nice.


Well... if anything the internet is the last bastion of freedom of speech with the massive amounts of uncensored information. There is nothing wrong with that. It's probably the only place you can offend a Muslim without being charged with a hate crime these days for upsetting community relations. Besides the thread is still very much open and the debate is still going so it isn't moot. 

Back on topic I already thought Lee was fined and that was that after confiscation?


----------



## bilko

ReptileSeeker said:


> Back on topic I already thought Lee was fined and that was that after confiscation?


Well if that's the case, is'nt that another way of saying 'guilty':gasp:


----------



## enlightenment

Muze said:


> Its not a moot one as im entited to free speech, as is everyone else.


No.

I am sorry, but you're not.

What you write here as it at discretition of the mods.

Either we accept that, or don't, and find a place to move on to.

If you were arrested on charges of sexual assault, no one would have any right to pre empt your case, lest you were innocent.


----------



## steveyruss

bilko said:


> Well if that's the case, is'nt that another way of saying 'guilty':gasp:


I dunno about that, we would of heard more. I think it's standard practice over there to seize any animals that are headed out of the country whether they were native or not. Things are probably a little different over there, guilty until proven innocent :whistling2:


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## jack_rep

Wow, this thread took a nose dive since I left lol. Think everyone best take a breather and have a nice relaxing cup of tea. This feels like its perilously on the edge of becoming a slagging match. Which will get this thread closed... which i really dont want.

I think yes we can argue that the presented facts dont look good, its a risky business actually attacking lee directly, because if all this all turns out to be rubbish your likely to finds lees solicitors dropping you emails lol.



bilko said:


> but at the end of the day this guy is out of order....
> 
> ....only be driven by greed


above statement for example. Not disrespect to the poster. But i think thats going a little too far, because as already said Lee hasn't had a chance to present his argument.

Not saying you nessersarily have to take that argument as fact! But at least owe him the respect to hear it before you knock his rep too badly.

Again no disrespect to the orginal poster, was just the post that best made my point.



Alex M said:


> Anything else fat ginger bloke?


Personal insults too will just get this closed. not saying ive not done it before. but its just going to fuel things into a brawl.



Muze said:


> Its not a moot one as im entited to free speech, as is everyone else.


Yes you are, but if that free speech your exhibiting publicly turns out to be untrue, and damages lee's business... then he is entitled to claim back from you the financial value of that damage in court.

Again not knocking the people who made the above posts. Just think this thread needs to be reined in just a smidge to stop is escalating. This thread needs to stay open in my view to allow peoples attention to be drawn to what has gone on.


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## enlightenment

By all means keep it open.

Just keep it respectful, imo.

I don't know Lee, personally, and it wouldn't really matter if I did.

What I do know is that I have been the victim of an injustice before, and people were all to quick to light the fire, get their pitchforks out, only to look like donkey's when the allegations proved to be falsified, by a malicous party.


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## bobsleaf

Like many people have said up to this point, we don't have all the facts in our possession. The problem, as I see it, is that we will NEVER have the facts.

People have vested interests, therefore what truth comes out will be a VERSION of the truth.



I have bought from Lee many times in the past, more than half of my collection has come from him and I am grateful that he has given me the chance to own some exciting species.

After seeing the few photos which have been released and reading about the numbers of spiders involved, it has completely put me off WC specimens in any shape or form.

I don't think I will be buying from thespidershop.co.uk again. Whether or not Lee had the necessary permits to collect these spiders, the sheer quantities collected are obscene and completely irresponsible. I have spent around £1500 with them this past year. 

I recently bought a WC King baboon from TSS and it arrived in a terrible state, the abdomen being shrivelled and wrinkled beyond belief. As soon as I
placed it in the enclosure, it was drinking for a good 15-20 minutes. So far this week, it has eaten three adult dubias, two locusts and half a dozen crickets. It is now displaying a more healthy appearance. Why would the suitcase spiders be in any better condition? Is this how my King Baboon was transported here? I feel incredibly guilty for buying it.

I honestly feel that all WC specimens should be boycotted. As a hobby with large numbers of enthusiasts we have a responsibility to keep our public image as ***** and span as possible. This case only serves to tarnish it.

This is not a witch hunt, though I think episodes like this should serve as a wake-up call to all of us.

Until we have more facts we shouldn't crucify the guy.


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## steveyruss

jack_rep said:


> Wow, this thread took a nose dive since I left lol. Think everyone best take a breather and have a nice relaxing cup of tea. This feels like its perilously on the edge of becoming a slagging match. Which will get this thread closed... which i really dont want.
> 
> I think yes we can argue that the presented facts dont look good, its a risky business actually attacking lee directly, because if all this all turns out to be rubbish your likely to finds lees solicitors dropping you emails lol.
> 
> 
> 
> above statement for example. Not disrespect to the poster. But i think thats going a little too far, because as already said Lee hasn't had a chance to present his argument.
> 
> Not saying you nessersarily have to take that argument as fact! But at least owe him the respect to hear it before you knock his rep too badly.
> 
> Again no disrespect to the orginal poster, was just the post that best made my point.
> 
> 
> 
> Personal insults too will just get this closed. not saying ive not done it before. but its just going to fuel things into a brawl.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you are, but if that free speech your exhibiting publicly turns out to be untrue, and damages lee's business... then he is entitled to claim back from you the financial value of that damage in court.
> 
> Again not knocking the people who made the above posts. Just think this thread needs to be reined in just a smidge to stop is escalating. This thread needs to stay open in my view to allow peoples attention to be drawn to what has gone on.


This is true, there was a lot of misinformation initially and it wasn't even clear who was involved just by rumour. However what most people are pissed off about is the suitcase and it's apparent conditions. There seems some truth in this part. It's been verified by a credible source and is reinforced by a lot of respected newspapers. Just look at the suitcase picture being exported all over the internet, is this a fake?
I have my money on an independent academic like *Dr. Rogerio Bertani *to know when IATA guidelines have been broken rather than the account personally Lee told Mark with vague specifics. Of course Lee has every right to defend himself and I'm sure he will, good luck to him too because the Brazilians will not fight fairly in this, he has more important issues to fight for like his free will (and a massive fine) not what people think on an internet forum. It does not look good for him unfortunately.


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## jack_rep

out of interest has anyone on here had any orders from thespidershop sent out in the last few days? are they still trading?


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## ReptileSeeker

Why the friggin heck would Rogerio Bertani want such a comment he made to be circulated publically if it were false? To leave himself open to be burned in court with this case? To ruin his reputation? This spidershop guys defence will matter in court but there must be *something *concrete in this condemnation. Get your head out of your arse. Bahh!


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## Muze

jack_rep said:


> Wow, this thread took a nose dive since I left lol. Think everyone best take a breather and have a nice relaxing cup of tea. This feels like its perilously on the edge of becoming a slagging match. Which will get this thread closed... which i really dont want.
> 
> I think yes we can argue that the presented facts dont look good, its a risky business actually attacking lee directly, because if all this all turns out to be rubbish your likely to finds lees solicitors dropping you emails lol.
> 
> 
> 
> above statement for example. Not disrespect to the poster. But i think thats going a little too far, because as already said Lee hasn't had a chance to present his argument.
> 
> Not saying you nessersarily have to take that argument as fact! But at least owe him the respect to hear it before you knock his rep too badly.
> 
> Again no disrespect to the orginal poster, was just the post that best made my point.
> 
> 
> 
> Personal insults too will just get this closed. not saying ive not done it before. but its just going to fuel things into a brawl.
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes you are, but if that free speech your exhibiting publicly turns out to be untrue, and damages lee's business... then he is entitled to claim back from you the financial value of that damage in court.*
> 
> Again not knocking the people who made the above posts. Just think this thread needs to be reined in just a smidge to stop is escalating. This thread needs to stay open in my view to allow peoples attention to be drawn to what has gone on.



Show me anything i have said which i could be sued for and that he has the money to do that...libel and slander and noturiously expensive to pursue. :whistling2:


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## Muze

ReptileSeeker said:


> Why the friggin heck would Rogerio Bertani want such a comment he made to be circulated publically if it were false? To leave himself open to be burned in court with this case? To ruin his reputation? This spidershop guys defence will matter in court but there must be *something *concrete in this condemnation. Get your head out of your arse. Bahh!



:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Muze

enlightenment said:


> No.
> 
> I am sorry, but you're not.
> 
> What you write here as it at discretition of the mods.
> 
> Either we accept that, or don't, and find a place to move on to.
> 
> If you were arrested on charges of sexual assault, no one would have any right to pre empt your case, lest you were innocent.



Well they havent closed the topic as of yet :whistling2:

And FYI ive never been cautioned for anything or arrested...let alone sexual assualt (im also female) So i dont quite know where that came from :gasp::crazy:


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## perthchickie

He wasn't saying you had been arrested for anything, it was an example of how people can be accused of something and judged guilty before being proven.

I committed an offence a couple of years ago, my first in my life and I am 35. I wrote in felt tip pen on my cousins car for something he did to a member of my family when that person was a child. I am sure you get the jist. I was drunk and flew off the handle but i should not have done what I did. Anyways the papers said I vandalised cars in his street, when it was only his car. An their was no permanent damage to the car. I also posted some flyers through his neighbours doors and they said I had been writing on his neighbours doors. I admitted my guilt for the offence straight away but the papers made me out to have committed a series of offences that I did not.

People too easily become the judge, jury and sentence the person before getting all the facts. An the papers can't be fully trusted, I know.

I am waiting to see what happens before having any opinion on what has happened.



Muze said:


> Well they havent closed the topic as of yet :whistling2:
> 
> And FYI ive never been cautioned for anything or arrested...let alone sexual assualt (im also female) So i dont quite know where that came from :gasp::crazy:


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## Caz

Muze said:


> Well they havent closed the topic as of yet :whistling2:
> 
> And FYI ive never been cautioned for anything or arrested...let alone sexual assualt (*im also female) So i dont quite know where that came from* :gasp::crazy:


Females can commit and be charged for sexual assault!


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## GRB

I'm amazed at how far off topic this strays.

There's so far, only threesources of information:

The newspapers
The email from Dr Bertani
The statement from Mark Penell

Of which, the statement by Mark and Dr. Bertani should, in all likelihood be veiwed as the least biased, as they have both either been on the scene or spoken to those involved directly. The rest is secondhand information. 

Until otherwise, I think everyone should stop guessing and going off on tangents about unrelated matters, or slagging people off.


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## enlightenment

Muze said:


> Well they havent closed the topic as of yet :whistling2:
> 
> And FYI ive never been cautioned for anything or arrested...let alone sexual assualt (im also female) So i dont quite know where that came from :gasp::crazy:


*Sigh*

I am not saying you HAVE, it was an example.

I just believe in innocent until proven guilty.

The moment we let go of that, we are all screwed.

True?


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## Kamike

10/10 :2thumb:

This thread ticks all the boxes

Gripping story line, check
Strange twists, check
Animal cruelty, check
Arguments, check
Internal conflict, check
WMD's Not yet but it wont be long

Keep it up folks...... Now wheres the popcorn??


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## Muze

enlightenment said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> I am not saying you HAVE, it was an example.
> 
> I just believe in innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> The moment we let go of that, we are all screwed.
> 
> True?


What i was getting at is that it was irrelevant to me as i have never been accused of that...let alone anything else illegal ...sigh:whistling2:

LOL id like to see me a size 10 and 5ft nothing commit sexual assualt...thats another reason i thought it strange apart from the fact that it would have been an outrageous claim in the first place...that and its completely off topic duh!

Innocent untill proven guilty?....no smoke without fire i say lol


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## Danhalen

See, this is *exactly* what I was talking about :roll:


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## Higgt4

jack_rep said:


> out of interest has anyone on here had any orders from thespidershop sent out in the last few days? are they still trading?


I had a delivery from them last Tuesday (10th Nov) but I guess that was before this happened, a couple of slings - CB mind.


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## Jamie

I think this thread has run it's course.

You guys are either repeating yourselves or going way off topic. I'm sure you'll all have plenty to say when Lee does get back to the UK.


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