# WC spider supply?



## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

Hey guys i was wondering if anyone would know, where I can get a large supply of WC spiders from, individual or company either would do. Something like a shipment soon Etc. not like one or two and they have to be straight from the wild they can't have been kept in quarantine or anything? Have tried a few people on here no one seems to want to respond 

Any help would be appreciated:2thumb:


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## JayW (Dec 14, 2010)

Might not be getting a reply as not many people keep from the wild anymore. I know the stores around me refuse to have anything from the wild.


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## TCBT (Jul 11, 2010)

wild caught, yea i can help...

well start with a few :censor: :censor: :censor: then turn :bash: :bash: :bash: then if you get the :censor: out of here, before somone really picks a bone, im sure you'll be ok :2thumb:


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## JayW (Dec 14, 2010)

TCBT said:


> wild caught, yea i can help...
> 
> well start with a few :censor: :censor: :censor: then turn :bash: :bash: :bash: then if you get the :censor: out of here, before somone really picks a bone, im sure you'll be ok :2thumb:


Sounds like erm, fun haha


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

someone should give a real answer i think so try the spider shop they get a bit of wc stock in as do some of the the german suppliers.
To answer some other posts when was the last time you saw a cb stout leg? Wild caught or farmed is still a major source of spiders


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

I would try spidershop or bugzuk, they both have regular imports.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Would love to know for what reason. For selling purposes, I now know not to buy from you in future


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

forever_20one said:


> Would love to know for what reason. For selling purposes, I now know not to buy from you in future


I was thinking maybe he wants possible egg sacks?


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## TCBT (Jul 11, 2010)

oliwilliams said:


> someone should give a real answer i think so try the spider shop they get a bit of wc stock in as do some of the the german suppliers.
> To answer some other posts when was the last time you saw a cb stout leg? Wild caught or farmed is still a major source of spiders


 
to me the last time i saw a CB stout leg, today actually, my female who laid the egg sack is CB which she laid last year, raised her from sling... hmmm try shopping around, you will be suprised, TSS aint the only shop out there !!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

There are a few suppliers about but very few without good reasons would be likly to supply you. 

I might be able to put you in touch with a few. Drop me a PM. 

Alternativly try contacting and explaining yourself to lee at the spider shop as he lands a few imports a year. 

jay


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

The majority of the well known invert dealers are bringing in WC's.... where do you think your XXL AF King Baboons come from,or other hobby favorites such as the Desert Hairy Scorpions or the influx of chilean scorpion and Tarantula fauna, or the North American Aphonopelma spiders that have suddenly flooded the market... I could go on as the list is endless for wild caught and imported.
-P


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

TCBT said:


> to me the last time i saw a CB stout leg, today actually, my female who laid the egg sack is CB which she laid last year, raised her from sling... hmmm try shopping around, you will be suprised, TSS aint the only shop out there !!


Is this an E. pachypus we are talking about here? 
Did you mate the female before you got an eggsac? 
Got any good pics of the male and the mating? 
Have you got any pics of the documention of the spiders growth? 
What stock is your female from (who you get it from?). 
sorry for so many questions I just like this species.


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## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

Yea did think of them, but I'm talking bulk like as many species as possible any arachnids. Hoping around 100 different species and didn't really want to pay an arm and a leg for them lol

It is for my dissertation in uni, I'm looking at mite species on tropical arachnids and the more species the merrier obviously there's a limit, but I haven't been told it yet. You'd be surprised how hard it is to get live arachnid specimens in the academic world

Any help would be appreciated


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

To be honest I can't see you having much luck, decent suppliers are unlikely to even consider sending out unquarantined WC livestock, especially in that kind of quantity, it reflects badly on them and if it means something nasty gets spread through captive populations they are going to get an awful lot of flack for it.

You might have more luck if you provide more information, how/where will they be kept, what will be done to them (if anything), what happens when you are finished, etc.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't know how it works or anything but why not make your own order with the import people... (Can tell I'm technical), Or at least look into it?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

MustLoveSnails said:


> To be honest I can't see you having much luck, decent suppliers are unlikely to even consider sending out unquarantined WC livestock, especially in that kind of quantity, it reflects badly on them and if it means something nasty gets spread through captive populations they are going to get an awful lot of flack for it.


If only that was the case!


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> If only that was the case!


 Hence the use of the word decent :devil:


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

oliwilliams said:


> someone should give a real answer i think so try the spider shop they get a bit of wc stock in as do some of the the german suppliers.
> To answer some other posts *when was the last time you saw a cb stout leg? Wild caught or farmed is still a major source of spiders*


 
I know there have been some captive breedings in the UK but nothing i've seen of for sometime.... I belive the issue as with some of the other african terrestrials are that the majority that come in are WC females and getting hold of males is pretty difficult.
-P


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## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

They are going to be kept at my university and once used unfortunately they will be deceased, there is no chance whatsoever of any getting out


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

MustLoveSnails said:


> Hence the use of the word decent :devil:


 I have never found that the words decent and supplier have ever fitted into the same sentence.:lol2:


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> I have never found that the words decent and supplier have ever fitted into the same sentence.:lol2:


:lol2:


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

sdh_22 said:


> They are going to be kept at my university and once used unfortunately they will be deceased, there is no chance whatsoever of any getting out


 Do you mean that they will be there for their entire lives, or that things will be done resulting in death?


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## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

Research will be done resulting in death


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

sdh_22 said:


> Research will be done resulting in death


Can't see anyone being willing to supply you then I'm afraid.


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

sdh_22 said:


> Research will be done resulting in death


 
I admire your honesty.
-P


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

sdh_22 said:


> Research will be done resulting in death


That's horrible... So you're going to take inverts out of their natural habitat, poke, prod and do things to them, then kill them for no real reason?


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

sdh_22 said:


> Research will be done resulting in death


Wow why u defanatly came to the wrong place to ask


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Admire the honesty. But wrong place love. Cant condone buying WC or killing them... obviously. Thread closure I think... or hope.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

forever_20one said:


> Admire the honesty. But wrong place love. Cant condone buying WC or killing them... obviously. Thread closure I think... or hope.


Yeah I hope it's closed as well.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

vivalabam said:


> That's horrible... So you're going to take inverts out of their natural habitat, poke, prod and do things to them, then kill them for no real reason?


What are you on about? How on earth do you know it is no real reason without knowing the details of his research? When specimens are collected for type specimens do you think they wait until the specimen dies of old age first before putting them in the specimen jar? For all you know this guys research may even help you in answering some of those questions you don't know the answer to.


To help as best I can then:-
You could look online for animal exporters in different countries for a quick example- African Animals (T) LTD | export animals, exotic animals
Be careful though as many will be a part of the internet scam market but others certainly will not. 
I would also advise a trip out to any such exporter to check out their premises and to make sure everything is above board and I expect you will also require an import licence.
Your best bet though would be you contact an already exsisting spider importer and see if you can strike out a deal with them. I very much expect that they would be happy to oblige if the price is right.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> What are you on about? How on earth do you know it is no real reason without knowing the details of his research? When specimens are collected for type specimens do you think they wait until the specimen dies of old age first before putting them in the specimen jar? For all you know this guys research may even help you in answering some of those questions you don't know the answer to.
> 
> 
> To help as best I can then:-
> ...


Which is why there is a question mark at the end, it was my interpretation of the post.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

vivalabam said:


> Which is why there is a question mark at the end, it was my interpretation of the post.


you have a hell of a way of interpretating things to get


> That's horrible... So you're going to take inverts out of their natural habitat, poke, prod and do things to them, then kill them for no real reason?


from


> Research will be done resulting in death


the real funny thing though is what you wrote happens to I reckon about 90% of the spiders that come into captivity, all be it they may not be intentally killed, just killed through bad keeping habites.


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> the real funny thing though is what you wrote happens to I reckon about 90% of the spiders that come into captivity, all be it they may not be intentally killed, just killed through bad keeping habites.


 I think that is something basically everyone in this section fights against though, I know it might seem a bit daunting to some but new members who come here do get questions answered and if they need it extra advice and care info it IS there. 
They might both be awful to find out about a spider/other invert dying because the owner didn't know what they were doing is very different to condemming one to a certain death by experiments, the owner didn't chose to kill it and will often be very upset and feel guilt over its death. I know why previous posters are upset by this idea, I am to. Most people don't like the thought of any animal they hold in high regard being experimented on, and due to the nature of the hobby that has meant to keepers here feel a compassion for the creepy crawlies of this world mankind often dismiss. That has always been one reason I love this hobby, it encourages a respect for the smaller and often overlooked inhabitants of this world.


I don't know how the spiders used for this would be experimented on or would die, or if the information gained could ever be deemed "necessary" enough that most in this section would really ever feel ok with it, but its down to the OP to decide if they want to put that information, and how people will react is defined by how they look at the world. 

Its no different really to people cutting open monkeys or wiring stuff onto cats brains, in those peoples heads what they are researching is worth the suffering and eventual death of those animals even if there are far less cruel alternatives available.

I do agree with what was said earlier, I think OP was barking up the wrong tree coming here...


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

If it's for an undergrad dissertation you'll have a budget of around £300, or at least thats what we used to get a couple years back. 

Study of Acari is extremely difficult, so I admire the ambition - one word of advise however is that you'll probably need to spend a good chunk of your dissertation budget on the basic texts if you don't already have them. The bog standard biology of mites type thing IIRC is sitting around £100.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

> I don't know how the spiders used for this would be experimented on or would die, or if the information gained could ever be deemed "necessary" enough that most in this section would really ever feel ok with it, but its down to the OP to decide if they want to put that information, and how people will react is defined by how they look at the world.


The whole hobby is an experiment. I see stuff here every day that annoys me, one of them being "spiders are addictive" attitudes, and people pushing others to buy buy buy. A good chunk of the people here have more spiders than they know what to do with, and I'd bet a good chunk of people don't know basic facts about the climate that say, X.immanis naturally lives under, or about it's natural history. Some have more than 10 of them yet have never seen a moult (as evidenced by those same people asking if teir spider is dead). Information on the species is just compressed to a single page caresheet and some rounded basic facts. I do the same at times, so I'm not saying I'm any better, but I never tell people to buy more animals. 

People are getting outraged that some dude wants a few dozen or so tarantulas to do some experiments on that he will euthanise at some point, yet the other day we had people saying "mosses are just mosses" and the gung-ho attitude that random removal of such was fine just to decorate a tarantula tank. Then others support smugglers illegally shipping tarantulas into the states "because once they are in the hobby they will be conserved" sort of rubbish. Others still go on about "must have" tarantulas - nobody _needs _them, be honest and say you _want _them. They are not addictive, and the next "in thing" is usually some smuggled WC stock from country X, where a good chunk of them likely died in transit and are now being sold for some paltry sum of money. If people cared about them truly, then we wouldn't be moaning when we see pet shops charging £80 for a spider. IMHO that is tiny price for a living organism when you think about it. If they did sell for more money, I wonder how the treatment further back in the transit line would change.




> Its no different really to people cutting open monkeys or wiring stuff onto cats brains, in those peoples heads what they are researching is worth the suffering and eventual death of those animals even if there are far less cruel alternatives available.


It's totally different, for many different reasons. One of them being that vertebrates are profoundly different to invertebrates. The other is that "less cruel alternatives" often don't exist. People seem to have this idea that scientists lack ethics - do you honestly think one can work and research on a group without becoming attached? That one just becomes so callous? No, at least not often in my experience. You just do what you have to do, because sometimes the only way to understand the physiology of brains for example, is to cut one open. 

You can't do that on humans very much so take the next closest. People can moan and whinge, but if it leads to treatments for that relative with Alzheimers then it's funny how quick it's forgotten that 25 monkeys were euthanised. 

I used to work in a facility experimenting on animals and I can say that what goes on, compared to what those idiots report, are two very different things. And at the end of the day, the EU states all chemicals have to be tested fully before entering the market for human use. So when the body shop says none of it's products are tested on animals, they mean the combined product - every single individual componant has been tested seperately, on animals. 

[/quote]I do agree with what was said earlier, I think OP was barking up the wrong tree coming here...[/QUOTE]

Rubbish. The guy simply wanted some animals - frankly I don't think he will need a bulk supplier but to ask and be honest is a good policy that I wish more people here had.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

I must admit my thoughts were the same as Baldpoodle, without research done into taxonomy etc. how are we meant to learn anything from these creatures?

Maybe it wasn't the best plan by the OP to come into forums specifically full of people who enjoy keeping these creatures but still science is science.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

GRB said:


> The whole hobby is an experiment. I see stuff here every day that annoys me, one of them being "spiders are addictive" attitudes, and people pushing others to buy buy buy. A good chunk of the people here have more spiders than they know what to do with, and I'd bet a good chunk of people don't. etc etc etc


(Just saving space:2thumb

I am glad you wrote all that because you seem to be able to put into words almost exacatly what I was thinking.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

sdh_22 said:


> They are going to be kept at my university and once used unfortunately they will be deceased, there is no chance whatsoever of any getting out


 
I'm intrested in the studies you will be taking part in... Can I ask what it is you will be studying with regard to Tarantula ??


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

"The whole hobby is an experiment. I see stuff here every day that annoys me, one of them being "spiders are addictive" attitudes, and people pushing others to buy buy buy. A good chunk of the people here have more spiders than they know what to do with, and I'd bet a good chunk of people don't know basic facts about the climate that say, X.immanis naturally lives under, or about it's natural history. Some have more than 10 of them yet have never seen a moult (as evidenced by those same people asking if teir spider is dead). Information on the species is just compressed to a single page caresheet and some rounded basic facts. I do the same at times, so I'm not saying I'm any better, but I never tell people to buy more animals. 

People are getting outraged that some dude wants a few dozen or so tarantulas to do some experiments on that he will euthanise at some point, yet the other day we had people saying "mosses are just mosses" and the gung-ho attitude that random removal of such was fine just to decorate a tarantula tank. Then others support smugglers illegally shipping tarantulas into the states "because once they are in the hobby they will be conserved" sort of rubbish. Others still go on about "must have" tarantulas - nobody _needs _them, be honest and say you _want _them. They are not addictive, and the next "in thing" is usually some smuggled WC stock from country X, where a good chunk of them likely died in transit and are now being sold for some paltry sum of money. If people cared about them truly, then we wouldn't be moaning when we see pet shops charging £80 for a spider. IMHO that is tiny price for a living organism when you think about it. If they did sell for more money, I wonder how the treatment further back in the transit line would change."

- Thats not things I agree with though, if I could not provide care for the animals and didn't know what I was doing with them I would not get them no matter how much I wanted them. I ALWAYS research my animals beforehand, I spent two years looking up everything I could about hermit crabs before I got any so I could be sure they had the best possible care, and I bought some from a place they had been treated well. A large portion of what I have is ones I've saved from being killed for being "defective", "undesirable" or just because someone was fed up with them. I NEVER condone buying animals that people cannot care for or are just for a fad, EVER.

As to the mosses thing, I was one of the ones that commented in opposition of that attitude, the only reason I stopped is because I didn't want to turn things into a war on some poor persons thread.
The phrase "must have" as far as I am aware has never crossed my lips in relation to any living thing, unless it was to state their care requirements. If it has I will openly apologise now, as far as I am aware I always say I want.
Honestly even if they sold for a lot more I doubt the way WC animals would change, most (and I'm not saying all) who import stuff just have the pounds/dollars/euro/etc signs flashing, if they sold for more maybe they would make a little more effort but not much.

As for the inverts are addictive thing, as far as I'm aware its said when people are describing how they feel, or said as a kind of joke, as it is in my case.


"It's totally different, for many different reasons. One of them being that vertebrates are profoundly different to invertebrates. The other is that "less cruel alternatives" often don't exist. People seem to have this idea that scientists lack ethics - do you honestly think one can work and research on a group without becoming attached? That one just becomes so callous? No, at least not often in my experience. You just do what you have to do, because sometimes the only way to understand the physiology of brains for example, is to cut one open. 

You can't do that on humans very much so take the next closest. People can moan and whinge, but if it leads to treatments for that relative with Alzheimers then it's funny how quick it's forgotten that 25 monkeys were euthanised. 

I used to work in a facility experimenting on animals and I can say that what goes on, compared to what those idiots report, are two very different things. And at the end of the day, the EU states all chemicals have to be tested fully before entering the market for human use. So when the body shop says none of it's products are tested on animals, they mean the combined product - every single individual componant has been tested seperately, on animals." 


I never said the people who do the experiments are callous or lacking morals, I said that people all view it differently, some people view any experiment as wrong, others will make exceptions. I am aware the less cruel alternatives don't always exist, but why not use them when they do?

My grandmother has cardio vascular dementia and honestly I can say if the death of a monkey would allow me to have one more day before she forgets me, I would not know what to do, because I have had a lot of pain in my life so far and the worst by far is watching the vibrant loving woman who has always been the center of my family lose herself. I'm not saying I wouldn't be tempted, because I would, and in the end I would be selfish and put her first. I don't think there is anyone in this world who wouldn't even consider killing something to save someone they loved from a horrible fate. I am aware of what is being done to test any treatments she might be offered, and frankly it does play on my mind a lot. Would I stand in the way of her using treatments that have already been tested? No, but I wouldn't forget what might have been done to test it. Not all of us forget the cost of the medicines we take, the food we eat or the houses we live in.

[/QUOTE]I do agree with what was said earlier, I think OP was barking up the wrong tree coming here...[/QUOTE]

Rubbish. The guy simply wanted some animals - frankly I don't think he will need a bulk supplier but to ask and be honest is a good policy that I wish more people here had.[/QUOTE]

My point was that most people here would not want to aid him in this... I never disputed that his honesty is good.

More fodder for you to pick fault with....


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> you have a hell of a way of interpretating things to get
> 
> from
> 
> ...


I do indeed, maybe if he came and explained himself more rather than come in here, tell us he's after tarantulas to do experiments on then kill I would be a little more understanding. 



GRB said:


> The whole hobby is an experiment. I see stuff here every day that annoys me, one of them being "spiders are addictive" attitudes, and people pushing others to buy buy buy. A good chunk of the people here have more spiders than they know what to do with, and I'd bet a good chunk of people don't know basic facts about the climate that say, X.immanis naturally lives under, or about it's natural history. Some have more than 10 of them yet have never seen a moult (as evidenced by those same people asking if teir spider is dead). Information on the species is just compressed to a single page caresheet and some rounded basic facts. I do the same at times, so I'm not saying I'm any better, but I never tell people to buy more animals.
> 
> People are getting outraged that some dude wants a few dozen or so tarantulas to do some experiments on that he will euthanise at some point, yet the other day we had people saying "mosses are just mosses" and the gung-ho attitude that random removal of such was fine just to decorate a tarantula tank. Then others support smugglers illegally shipping tarantulas into the states "because once they are in the hobby they will be conserved" sort of rubbish. Others still go on about "must have" tarantulas - nobody _needs _them, be honest and say you _want _them. They are not addictive, and the next "in thing" is usually some smuggled WC stock from country X, where a good chunk of them likely died in transit and are now being sold for some paltry sum of money. If people cared about them truly, then we wouldn't be moaning when we see pet shops charging £80 for a spider. IMHO that is tiny price for a living organism when you think about it. If they did sell for more money, I wonder how the treatment further back in the transit line would change.
> 
> ...


He didn't just want a few animals, that was my problem, he said he wanted hundreds of species... Maybe if he did just want a couple of dozen like you said I wouldn't be so annoyed.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

@must love snails:

I'm not sure why you assumed that was a personal dig at you but you seem very defensive all the same. It wasn't, most of that stems from having moderated this place for a while and being a member since 2008. It happens a lot, as threads here illustrate. 

if you want to go through my posts however and argue that you don't do that then fine...doesn't mean 100's of others do or don't.


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

GRB said:


> @must love snails:
> 
> I'm not sure why you assumed that was a personal dig at you but you seem very defensive all the same. It wasn't, most of that stems from having moderated this place for a while and being a member since 2008. It happens a lot, as threads here illustrate.
> 
> if you want to go through my posts however and argue that you don't do that then fine...doesn't mean 100's of others do or don't.


 I wasn't viewing it as a personal dig, you responded to my post so I answered your responses as clearly an succinctly as I could. Sorry for making the effort to respond and attempt to have a discussion....


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

MustLoveSnails said:


> I wasn't viewing it as a personal dig, you responded to my post so I answered your responses as clearly an succinctly as I could. Sorry for making the effort to respond and attempt to have a discussion....


Oh don't wimp out. :lol:

I enjoy these discussions, just don't take it personally because I have a different opinion. I do however consider my opinion "more informed" since I'm both a biologist working on arachnids and conservation, and because I used to work in an animal testing facility - then again, you have not stated your experience so perhaps you are more infromed.


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

Why are people so worried about someone asking for a few animals that will eventualy die? If it does lead anywhere positive then thats great, if not, then thats not all bad either things are still learned. Animals die for research all the time, people here shouldnt be so quick to judge


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

GRB said:


> Oh don't wimp out. :lol:
> 
> I enjoy these discussions, just don't take it personally because I have a different opinion. I do however consider my opinion "more informed" since I'm both a biologist working on arachnids and conservation, and because I used to work in an animal testing facility - then again, you have not stated your experience so perhaps you are more infromed.


Who ya callin a wimp :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I'm sorry for being snappy and I wasn't taking it personally.

I have not go any experience working in those fields but i'm working towards a career in entomology and have been keeping bugs for years, most of my opinions are formed from life experience and that so hope they are still worth something


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> Is this an E. pachypus we are talking about here?
> Did you mate the female before you got an eggsac?
> Got any good pics of the male and the mating?
> Have you got any pics of the documention of the spiders growth?
> ...


Virginia Cheeseman bred them at the beginning-ish of last year. It was a WC adult female and I believe a male from the same shipment that matured. I have 5 of the spiderlings.
As far as I'm aware, males are few and far between?


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

GRB said:


> Oh don't wimp out. :lol:
> 
> I enjoy these discussions, just don't take it personally because I have a different opinion. I do however consider my opinion "more informed" since I'm both a biologist working on arachnids and conservation, and because I used to work in an animal testing facility - then again, you have not stated your experience so perhaps you are more infromed.


I am intrested in what field you worked in animal testing Grant ???

I worked in a monoclonal unit in one of the big UK based companies producing Serum for growing culture (Heart and Kidney transplant research)

I was probably the youngest licensed Exsanguinist in the UK at the time...
I Bled everything from budgys to guinea pigs....

Sorry if anyone takes offence but would ask you to please keep in mind many lives are saved through transplant procedures... 

I witnessed many events from animal rights campaigners trying to cause harm, and often wondered if there families would indeed take a transplant or die to save the animal ??


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Dr3d said:


> I am intrested in what field you worked in animal testing Grant ???
> 
> I worked in a monoclonal unit in one of the big UK based companies producing Serum for growing culture (Heart and Kidney transplant research)
> 
> ...


Hi Noel,

I did some work in preclinical drug testing for a company that, well, we were hired by companies like AstraZeneca to test potential drugs they developed. I worked in the dispensary - we formulated the test formulations to dose to the animals, and sent them to the animals rooms where the techs and vets there did the dosing. I got to see the animal rooms and dosing etc, but didn't actually work with animals myself.

We did both acute and long term studies, mostly aimed at detecting whether the drugs could instigate cancer as a side effect, and we also tested agricultural chemicals at some field sites now and again, along with marine and nautical paints and solvents, again mostly to see if side effects included cancer development. 

That's cool to hear you were involved as well - I think people see the horror stories by PETA and the ADL etc and just judge based on that.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

GRB said:


> Hi Noel,
> 
> I did some work in preclinical drug testing for a company that, well, we were hired by companies like AstraZeneca to test potential drugs they developed. I worked in the dispensary - we formulated the test formulations to dose to the animals, and sent them to the animals rooms where the techs and vets there did the dosing. I got to see the animal rooms and dosing etc, but didn't actually work with animals myself.
> 
> ...


Thats very intresting were you subject to animal rights campaigners??

The company I worked for at the time, were at the for front of cancer research, I understand the rats an mice were given strains of cancer which in turn were given potential cures....<---- (explained in extreme raw terms) sadly as you will be aware most fail.... I was not part of this field... I was simply sent all over the country to collect blood, we had donor animals that were kept as pets and owners were paid for removal of blood... Horse or cattle normally... I also collected Hair from Rabbit for Keratine collection... after all if you take all the blood from the rabbit, it no longer needs its fur... sorry no joke meant but instead thinking rather that less of the animal went to waste...


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Dr3d said:


> Thats very intresting were you subject to animal rights campaigners??
> 
> The company I worked for at the time, were at the for front of cancer research, I understand the rats an mice were given strains of cancer which in turn were given potential cures....<---- (explained in extreme raw terms) sadly as you will be aware most fail.... I was not part of this field... I was simply sent all over the country to collect blood, we had donor animals that were kept as pets and owners were paid for removal of blood... Horse or cattle normally... I also collected Hair from Rabbit for Keratine collection... after all if you take all the blood from the rabbit, it no longer needs its fur... sorry no joke meant but instead thinking rather that less of the animal went to waste...


Thankfully we were out of the way enough that most activists would have to mount an expedition to find us! 

We did still get coarses on the pros and cons, how to deal with questions and activists etc. They didn't mind if people were against animal testing and encourage people to constantly strive for better methods - we even had 3 -5 site vets of which at least one was very anti animal testing, and in her own words was there to ensure the animals had the very least amount of suffering possible.

We had various units doing similar things - nothing was wasted generally, in some cases there was radioactive labelling studies where the entire animal was homogenised (translation: made into a paste) and studied, or excetions etc analysed (glamerous job this science malarkey).


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

vivalabam said:


> I do indeed, maybe if he came and explained himself more rather than come in here, tell us he's after tarantulas to do experiments on then kill I would be a little more understanding.


 but he has no reason to explain himself he is looking for speciemens not aproveal and a debate as to if his research is worthie or not.





vivalabam said:


> He didn't just want a few animals, that was my problem, he said he wanted hundreds of species... Maybe if he did just want a couple of dozen like you said I wouldn't be so annoyed.


no what he said was-


> Yea did think of them, but I'm talking bulk like as many species as possible any arachnids. Hoping around 100 different species and didn't really want to pay an arm and a leg for them lol


 so it could just be 100 different spiders...sorry I mean arachnids so that is not very much at all in the scope of things. When you consider the amount of arachnids that are wild caught for the pet trade alone each year, and I am betting that only 10% at best, go on the breed successfully or even live longer than a year or two, I would be much more anoyed at the way the pet trade is.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> but he has no reason to explain himself he is looking for speciemens not aproveal and a debate as to if his research is worthie or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We're not going to agree, so I'm going to leave it.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> so it could just be 100 different spiders...sorry I mean arachnids so that is not very much at all in the scope of things.* When you consider the amount of arachnids that are wild caught for the pet trade alone each year, and I am betting that only 10% at best, go on the breed successfully or even live longer than a year or two, I would be much more anoyed at the way the pet trade is*.


 
I have to agree, sad how many species of ANIMAL not just Arachnids get cought up in this....


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## bainsy (Feb 17, 2009)

GRB said:


> The whole hobby is an experiment. I see stuff here every day that annoys me, one of them being "spiders are addictive" attitudes, and people pushing others to buy buy buy. A good chunk of the people here have more spiders than they know what to do with, and I'd bet a good chunk of people don't know basic facts about the climate that say, X.immanis naturally lives under, or about it's natural history. Some have more than 10 of them yet have never seen a moult (as evidenced by those same people asking if teir spider is dead). Information on the species is just compressed to a single page caresheet and some rounded basic facts. I do the same at times, so I'm not saying I'm any better, but I never tell people to buy more animals.
> 
> People are getting outraged that some dude wants a few dozen or so tarantulas to do some experiments on that he will euthanise at some point, yet the other day we had people saying "mosses are just mosses" and the gung-ho attitude that random removal of such was fine just to decorate a tarantula tank. Then others support smugglers illegally shipping tarantulas into the states "because once they are in the hobby they will be conserved" sort of rubbish. Others still go on about "must have" tarantulas - nobody _needs _them, be honest and say you _want _them. They are not addictive, and the next "in thing" is usually some smuggled WC stock from country X, where a good chunk of them likely died in transit and are now being sold for some paltry sum of money. If people cared about them truly, then we wouldn't be moaning when we see pet shops charging £80 for a spider. IMHO that is tiny price for a living organism when you think about it. If they did sell for more money, I wonder how the treatment further back in the transit line would change.
> 
> ...


Yay, pretty much what I was going to write. Some weird attitudes to academic study in this thread.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Ally said:


> Virginia Cheeseman bred them at the beginning-ish of last year. It was a WC adult female and I believe a male from the same shipment that matured. I have 5 of the spiderlings.
> As far as I'm aware, males are few and far between?


think the ones TCBT must be from a different sac as he said-


> to me the last time i saw a CB stout leg, today actually, my female who laid the egg sack is CB which she laid last year, raised her from sling... hmmm try shopping around, you will be suprised, TSS aint the only shop out there !!


which means he has a captive bred female he raised from a spiderling that did an eggsac last year. I know that this species first entered the hobby in around 1991 and the first successful breeding was in 2004 as before then the males were hardly known, then all of a sudden there were a fair few around for a short while (around a year) and now they seem to be almost non exsistent again.
That why I ask about the growth rate etc.
thanks for your info.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> think the ones TCBT must be from a different sac as he said-
> 
> which means he has a captive bred female he raised from a spiderling that did an eggsac last year. I know that this species first entered the hobby in around 1991 and the first successful breeding was in 2004 as before then the males were hardly known, then all of a sudden there were a fair few around for a short while (around a year) and now they seem to be almost non exsistent again.
> That why I ask about the growth rate etc.
> thanks for your info.


Ooh, in that case (I'm at work and skim-reading!) mine are from the sac last year and currently about 1.5" legspan 

I'm also a fan of these, it's nice to know theres a few cb about!


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## ChrisNE (Jul 13, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> What are you on about? How on earth do you know it is no real reason without knowing the details of his research? When specimens are collected for type specimens do you think they wait until the specimen dies of old age first before putting them in the specimen jar? For all you know this guys research may even help you in answering some of those questions you don't know the answer to.
> 
> 
> To help as best I can then:-
> ...


This is the only time I have ever seen you answer a thread helpfully and its so a guy can kill hundreds of different species for his uni dissertation. That figures!

:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

I honestly don't understand what people's objections to this are, animals get killed for research, it happens so you just ensure that they get a decent quality of life in the meantime. That doesn't make it good, but it's not like the OP said they want to "murder some tarantulas for fun", they're doing it for research purposes. Far worse happens to thinking vertebrates as well, so y'know.

As I've said before r.e. people complaining about cruelty to inverts: if you're not a vegetarian or vegan then you _so_ don't get to complain about this. 

And if you keep snakes that you're feeding mice and/or rats to then ahahaha :lol2:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Hedgewitch said:


> I honestly don't understand what people's objections to this are, animals get killed for research, it happens so you just ensure that they get a decent quality of life in the meantime. That doesn't make it good, but it's not like the OP said they want to "murder some tarantulas for fun", they're doing it for research purposes. Far worse happens to thinking vertebrates as well, so y'know.
> 
> As I've said before r.e. people complaining about cruelty to inverts: if you're not a vegetarian or vegan then you _so_ don't get to complain about this.
> 
> And if you keep snakes that you're feeding mice and/or rats to then ahahaha :lol2:


No I don't keep snakes, meat we eat is bread for these purposes, these inverts are perfectly happy in the wild. (Thy all are in fact)


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hedgewitch said:


> *As I've said before r.e. people complaining about cruelty to inverts: if you're not a vegetarian or vegan then you so don't get to complain about this. *


They can't complain either since hundreds of thousands (millions even, globally) of mice and rodents, birds and insects are killed during harvest of grains and vegetables, organic or not.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

vivalabam said:


> No I don't keep snakes, meat we eat is bread for these purposes, these inverts are perfectly happy in the wild. (Thy all are in fact)


I don't see your point - you will undoubtedly have either WC or WC descendants in your collection. I'm sure you have had deaths already from your husbandry, and no research other than your own has come from those losses. Potentially a good study could provide information to a wider audience. 

The ethical thing would be to sell up and not keep any, since technically most animals are "happier" in the wild. I don't think any animal ever has had an evolutionary aspiration to be put in a plastic shoe box and put on a shelf next to 100 other shoeboxes containing animals.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

GRB said:


> I don't see your point - you will undoubtedly have either WC or WC descendants in your collection. I'm sure you have had deaths already from your husbandry, and no research other than your own has come from those losses. Potentially a good study could provide information to a wider audience.
> 
> The ethical thing would be to sell up and not keep any, since technically most animals are "happier" in the wild. I don't think any animal ever has had an evolutionary aspiration to be put in a plastic shoe box and put on a shelf next to 100 other shoeboxes containing animals.


Look I'm not starting another debate, I just don't have any facts to back it up so there's just no point. I was simply replying to what he said. 

I'm not against every bit of research like you seem to think, all I was trying to get at is I've not seen a reason therefore I don't agree with it. If he comes back and says it's to help the tarantula population e.g stop that nemotodes (sp) thing then I'll be all for it. I don't mind animal testing as long as there's a valid purpose, so far what I've seen is not a valid purpose. 

I've only once knowingly brought something wild caught which was my first ever millipede/invtert and I didn't know the difference back then, there is no doubt WC inverts in my collection, but I'd rather not know about it.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Tbh within moderation i dont see the problem in WC inverts as long as they are used in an effective manner. I dont agree with petshops just getting them in as they are cheaper. In some ways the only way you can get some species is by getting a WC pair and breeding your own.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

vivalabam said:


> Look I'm not starting another debate, I just don't have any facts to back it up so there's just no point. I was simply replying to what he said.


There's an easy solution to that and it involves you not posting opinions lacking in facts :Na_Na_Na_Na: If we were discussing religeon or matters of "faith" then *******, but science....nope, facts required. 



> I'm not against every bit of research like you seem to think (didn't actually say that, but nvm), all I was trying to get at is I've not seen a reason therefore I don't agree with it. If he comes back and says it's to help the tarantula population e.g stop that nemotodes (sp) thing then I'll be all for it. I don't mind animal testing as long as there's a valid purpose, so far what I've seen is not a valid purpose (define valid? I'm sure his, mine and yours will be different).


So you have no evidence to back up your opinions, yet this guy has to justify his research to you? 

The outreach side of me is saying "great, he should communicate his experiment to the public" but the other part of me is saying "it's on animals, people will just ignore facts and judge, as they already have". 



> I've only once knowingly brought something wild caught which was my first ever millipede/invtert and I didn't know the difference back then (what, between "wild caught" and "captive bred"? The words surely give the game away?), there is no doubt WC inverts in my collection, *but I'd rather not know about it.*


So if you are ignorant to it, therefore it doesn't happen? :lol:

If you don't understand the issue to some extent, how can you post opinion on it? (and why?). Surely you can only _understand _the issue by examining it from multiple viewpoints?


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Interesting point about the death of animals through arable farming Grant.



vivalabam said:


> No I don't keep snakes, meat we eat is bread for these purposes, these inverts are perfectly happy in the wild. (Thy all are in fact)


For what purpose the animal is bred makes no difference to me, if anything animals being bred to be eaten raises it's own set of moral dilemmas as these animals don't even get a chance. An animal hunted from the wild for instance is one chosen partly at random, an animal raised for meat is marked from before it's birth for an early death.

A number taken from the wild for research (which has a purpose, the idea that all science *must *have some "worth" beyond the pursuit of knowledge offends me, though that's a story for another time) is _nothing _compared to the number taken from the wild for the hobby.

You don't buy WC? Good for you, an admirable thing to do. However, all animals in captivity were originally taken from the wild. In the grand scheme of things 100 is, for many species, nothing. To go beyond that, it's 100 taken from a number of different species, more will be lost to larger conspecifics in a year.

As for "happier in the wild"? I don't doubt that. But at the same time I'm willing to bet that the death they'll have at the hands of a researcher will be less drawn out than any death in the wild (if maybe sooner).


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hedgewitch said:


> Interesting point about the death of animals through arable farming Grant.


Don't give me the credit for it; I originally saw it mentioned in a Maddox blog, and then discovered there's lot of research on it. Turns out it's yet another big issue, and the vegans etc convieniently ignore it a lot of the time. 

Whether or not more animals are killed during harvest over the years than by conversion of land to agriculture is another issue however. I do wonder when the numbers would equal out.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

GRB said:


> There's an easy solution to that and it involves you not posting opinions lacking in facts :Na_Na_Na_Na: If we were discussing religeon or matters of "faith" then *******, but science....nope, facts required.
> 
> 
> So you have no evidence to back up your opinions, yet this guy has to justify his research to you?
> ...


I've no idea why you keep going on at me, Hedgewitch managed to come up with a decent reply without making it out as an attack. 

I think I have every right to post my opinion, I'm not trying to make out I know everything. No he doesn't have to at all, it's his choice, but for me to make a decision on his research I'd have to know about it. Oddly enough I'm not all for killing inverts if there is no good cause, sorry you are. 

Again I never said that, I know it happens, I don't know where you got the idea I think it doesn't? 

I can understand multiple view points which is why I want to know about the research so I can form the correct opinion for me on the subject, so far it's not a good one. 



Hedgewitch said:


> Interesting point about the death of animals through arable farming Grant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get pretty much all my Ts from slings, yeah you're right there are lots of some species, but we don't know which ones he plans on choosing, that's the thing I have a problem with just the unknown. I don't understand how people can be defending him blindly. Obviously others understand science and experiments a lot more than me but I can't support an idea I don't even know. :lol2:

But we don't know that.  He might be an amazing scientist that is going to take this research on board, publish his findings and unfortunately euthanize them in a humane manor. Or he could just poke around a bit, shop off a leg here and there then stamp on them. (doubt it) But the point I'm making is we don't know the research he is doing yet and hopefully he will come back and enlighten us/ me. 


Any who I'm not getting back into this, like I said I don't have any facts to back me out, which apparently means I'm not allowed an opinion.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> Don't give me the credit for it; I originally saw it mentioned in a Maddox blog, and then discovered there's lot of research on it. Turns out it's yet another big issue, and the vegans etc convieniently ignore it a lot of the time.
> 
> Whether or not more animals are killed during harvest over the years than by conversion of land to agriculture is another issue however. I do wonder when the numbers would equal out.


I cant see how vegans can never see this as an issue. The amount of dead birds etc we get in bales of straw for the horses is ridiculous. I even found a family of dead hedgehogs one year.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

ChrisNE said:


> This is the only time I have ever seen you answer a thread helpfully and its so a guy can kill hundreds of different species for his uni dissertation. That figures!
> 
> :lol2::lol2::lol2:


Maybe read some of my posts then!
This is the only time I have read one of your posts and it is usless.That figures!


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

vivalabam said:


> I've no idea why you keep going on at me, Hedgewitch managed to come up with a decent reply without making it out as an attack.


How was that an attack? Surely an attack would have been if I'd called you blonde or something and written off your entire comment? To me, this is simply explaining where I disagree with your opinions, and suggestions for how to improve them. 



> I think I have every right to post my opinion, I'm not trying to make out I know everything. No he doesn't have to at all, it's his choice, but for me to make a decision on his research I'd have to know about it. Oddly enough I'm not all for killing inverts if there is no good cause, sorry you are.


I never said I was either; you seem to be unable to take anything but extremes. The fact is you assumed the research was pointless and cruel. I am simply playing devil's advocate and pushing that it might not be. 




> I can understand multiple view points which is why I want to know about the research so I can form the correct opinion for me on the subject, so far it's not a good one.


Really? The thing is, everytime someone gives you advice you're reaction to go in a mini-huff and say "I'm not wanting to argue, i'll stop posting". My response is "fine; stop posting then". I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy in you jumping on someone for doing something you don't like that you don't even understand, whilst you expect other people to tolerate the actions you take without raising an eyelid. You've done stuff I consider pointless, but I didn't rip on you for it. I offered advice (which you basically also saw as an attack somehow). If people offering advice (which let's face it, is basically saying "I have a small issue with what you are doing. Here's how I'd do it, and I think this is a better way of doing it") is an attack then good luck at university, you must get along great with lecturers! :lol:




> I get pretty much all my Ts from slings, yeah you're right there are lots of some species, but we don't know which ones he plans on choosing, that's the thing I have a problem with just the unknown. I don't understand how people can be defending him blindly. Obviously others understand science and experiments a lot more than me but I can't support an idea I don't even know. :lol2:


We're not supporting him blindly - you assumed he was doing it for no reason, I am simply pushing that maybe he is! 





> Any who I'm not getting back into this, like I said I don't have any facts to back me out, which apparently means I'm not allowed an opinion.


Again you miss my point - you have pushed your opinion on matters you _dont _have much experience in, and are now getting annoyed because someone who _does _have some experience in it is calling you out on your opinion! You assumed the guy had no point, I assumed he did have some reason for doing it, otherwise his supervisor would not OK it for a start, and they wouldn't be chucking money into it. 

It's OK; you can ignore this, but the difference between me and you on this issue is that if needed, I could go and either base my opinion on contact I've had (in the industry or doing it otherwise...on arachnids!) or literature I've read. 
You are doing neither and expecting to be treated "on par" without putting any facts across - basically your whole argument is "I _feel _this is wrong" yet you are pushing it as if that is somehow a valid critique on the guy doing the research in the first place.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

GRB said:


> How was that an attack? Surely an attack would have been if I'd called you blonde or something and written off your entire comment? To me, this is simply explaining where I disagree with your opinions, and suggestions for how to improve them.
> 
> I never said I was either; you seem to be unable to take anything but extremes. The fact is you assumed the research was pointless and cruel. I am simply playing devil's advocate and pushing that it might not be.
> 
> ...


That's because your advice talks down to me, I don't need to be talked down to, there's enough people who can talk to me normally. 

I get on with my lecturers fine, seeing as you seem concerned. I've never had to go to them for any issues yet, my works been fine. 

Exactly the point I made with scientists knowing more than me. Maybe you need to stop trying to change my opinion, I'm fine with it, no idea why you aren't.

I'm not pushing anything, people reply to me so I justify myself, something I need to work on I know. I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, merely putting across another point. Why should I listen to your opinion when you clearly don't listen to mine, I think you're the one pushing, I said I'm leaving it yet you still had to dissect everything I say?  I never expect to be on par with anything or anyone, I think I clearly stated quite a few times that I just want to know what the research is on before I do make an opinion.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I never understand why people react so badly to quoting a message in several small sections to respond to it. It's undoubtedly easier than reading a chunk of text 2000 words long that refers to multiple different points. 

I don't see how I'm talking down to you either;I'm using the correct terminology as I would normally and it's not like I am restricting my words to 5 letters or less just for you. I'm beginning to suspect you just look for the insults in my posts, I am certainly not trying to insult you. I'm not subtle enough for that, If I thought you were a tool I'd say so - just ask the people I have insulted. I'm just not going to pretend that I agree with some of your idea or think they are "good". You don't provide facts often, and yet you are the first often to give out advice to new keepers - of which, I class you as a new keeper as well. I usually don't give opinions on things I don't know much about, which is why I find that behaviour above a bit perplexing. It's a bit like the blind leading the blind.

The reason I'm trying to change your opinion is because you _assumed _he had no point in his research. You then used a few basic and cliched arguments about why it would be wrong to take animals from the wild and experiment on them, which I pointed out was a bit hypocritical given that keeping them as pets is pretty much the same only the information is rarely shared in a useful format (if data is even collected). 

Anyway, you just deciding to "leave it" after you post your comments is hardly a fair method of discussion. I let you have your say, I don't close the thread after I post or delete your comments, the least you can do is allow me to respond to your criticisms of my post.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

GRB said:


> I never understand why people react so badly to quoting a message in several small sections to respond to it. It's undoubtedly easier than reading a chunk of text 2000 words long that refers to multiple different points.


Ah so thats why you do this lol:whistling2: 


GRB said:


> If I thought you were a tool I'd say so - just ask the people I have insulted.


Its true you should see the abusive pms he sends me every day!:mf_dribble:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

GRB said:


> I never understand why people react so badly to quoting a message in several small sections to respond to it. It's undoubtedly easier than reading a chunk of text 2000 words long that refers to multiple different points.
> 
> I don't see how I'm talking down to you either;I'm using the correct terminology as I would normally and it's not like I am restricting my words to 5 letters or less just for you. I'm beginning to suspect you just look for the insults in my posts, I am certainly not trying to insult you. I'm not subtle enough for that, If I thought you were a tool I'd say so - just ask the people I have insulted. I'm just not going to pretend that I agree with some of your idea or think they are "good". You don't provide facts often, and yet you are the first often to give out advice to new keepers - of which, I class you as a new keeper as well. I usually don't give opinions on things I don't know much about, which is why I find that behaviour above a bit perplexing. It's a bit like the blind leading the blind.
> 
> ...


So I'm not good at giving advice to people? It should only be saved for the people who have been in the hobby for many years? At what point should I be helping people then, 2 years down the line... 5? Yeah I'm a new keeper but reply to the things I know about, and if I'm ever wrong I do point that out and apologise. If I don't know anything about the subject I don't reply... No I don't give out facts that I don't have, thought that would be a good thing, I mean I can make stuff up and quote newspapers if you'd prefer? I never pretend I know any more than I do so I don't understand the point you're trying to make.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I never said any explicit time - I've only been in the hobby since 2007/8. 

Then again, I don't ask things like this either:



vivalabam said:


> Can you feed flies to Ts?


Time is only one factor, it's more about general ethos. Personally if someone critises my husbandry, yeah I'll be annoyed, but I'll also go check if there is merit to it, and if there is, learn from it and damn well make sure that criticism can no longer be levelled at me. Ditto for information that someone else knows that I don't - I'll try my best to match that level. My belief is that husbandry and knowledge can always be improved. 

I never said all the advice you give is bad either. I just find it perplexing when you get confused about death curls and moulting to then give advice on moulting, etc. 



vivalabam said:


> So I'm not good at giving advice to people? It should only be saved for the people who have been in the hobby for many years? At what point should I be helping people then, 2 years down the line... 5? Yeah I'm a new keeper but reply to the things I know about, and if I'm ever wrong I do point that out and apologise. If I don't know anything about the subject I don't reply... No I don't give out facts that I don't have, thought that would be a good thing, I mean I can make stuff up and quote newspapers if you'd prefer? I never pretend I know any more than I do so I don't understand the point you're trying to make.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> Its true you should see the abusive pms he sends me every day!:mf_dribble:


you too? it's a wonder he has time to be a moderator at all, with all the insulting PMs he sends. I had to stop being a mod because I didn't have time to read them all.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

GRB said:


> I never said any explicit time - I've only been in the hobby since 2007/8.
> 
> Then again, I don't ask things like this either:
> 
> ...


Wow that was a while ago.  That was when I fist started keeping, I'd like to think I've learnt a little more since then. :lol2: And again if anyone then asked me advice on if Ts eat flies I'll be able to tell them they do? I don't see the point you're trying to make... Again. 

So my advice isn't bad, but I still shouldn't give any because I'm a new keeper and don't know what I'm talking about? 

The whole point in asking questions is to get answers, then I can go and advise people who were in the same position as me, surely? And like I said, I don't give advice on things I don't know anything about. So I wouldn't give anyone advice on a death curl or sexing because I don't know anything about it. Whereas if someone says their T is on their back what's happening, I could suggest a moult. Also if I'm unsure I say this is what I think but someone will come along soon and clarify or correct me.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

vivalabam said:


> Wow that was a while ago.  That was when I fist started keeping, I'd like to think I've learnt a little more since then. :lol2: And again if anyone then asked me advice on if Ts eat flies I'll be able to tell them they do? I don't see the point you're trying to make... Again.
> 
> The point is you are just repeating parrot style an answer you don't actually understand. Ever heard of chinese whispers? That can happen with information too - if you don't _how _you "know" something, or where the answer originally came from, then how much reliance can you have in it?
> 
> ...


Fair enough, hopefully I've explained my points this time. 

Anyway, the original discussion was you assumed the OP was doing pointless experiments and I feel like I've probably argued the case that he's also possibly not doing pointless experiments too...:lol2:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

And again I never say I know, so if someone comes in and goes no it's not like this it goes like this I say fair enough thanks I've learnt something new. I never clam I know anything, I simply post and if someone agrees or says something similar I think awesome I'm on the right lines. I never said my advice is any better than someone else's. I do totally agree that there are many people who will give better advice than me, except they aren't about all of the time. 

And no you would have never seen me post female in any post. I have no idea what a female looks like, I have tried looking at the different threads and learning it but they all look the same to me, so when the time comes about when one of my big Ts moult I'll be doing the same, posting and asking if it's male or female. The most I would have ever done in the sexing threads would be suggest they need a better photo if they post it where the abdomen is mangled... Which would just be following on from what other people have said.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

vivalabam said:


> And again I never say I know, so if someone comes in and goes no it's not like this it goes like this I say fair enough thanks I've learnt something new. I never clam I know anything,* I simply post* *and if someone agrees or says something similar I think awesome I'm on the right lines.* I never said my advice is any better than someone else's. I do totally agree that there are many people who will give better advice than me, except they aren't about all of the time.


Not that this was the point I was making anyway, but by logical conclusion does that mean you basically post uncertain claims until someone else confirms?

Seems kinda pointless doesn't it? :lol: Not really sure why it's steered this way, I was just talking about your comments pertaining to science, and now it seems we're discussing how you act on the forum as a whole. Spooky.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

GRB said:


> Not that this was the point I was making anyway, but by logical conclusion does that mean you basically post uncertain claims until someone else confirms?
> 
> Seems kinda pointless doesn't it? :lol: Not really sure why it's steered this way, I was just talking about your comments pertaining to science, and now it seems we're discussing how you act on the forum as a whole. Spooky.


No, I worded that a little wrong. :blush: No idea where I was even heading with that comment, that will teach me for watching come dine with me while trying to have a conversation. :whistling2: It's why I stopped writing essays when watching TV. :lol2:

No I'm not either... Kept me entertained though, suppose I'll go play my xbox now. :blush:


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

I now have my very first sig-quote

:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> I now have my very first sig-quote
> 
> :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Cheers, my being a dopey blonde always ends up on peoples sigs. :blush:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

vivalabam said:


> Cheers, my being a dopey blonde always ends up on peoples sigs. :blush:


well someone had to didn't they!:mf_dribble:


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

vivalabam said:


> Cheers, my being a dopey blonde always ends up on peoples sigs. :blush:


LoL ohhh dear it is a rather good sig quote tho.... I think you watching come dine made a lil fruedian slip out there hehehe


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> well someone had to didn't they!:mf_dribble:


LOL! Well at least I'm becoming famous. :whistling2: Not for the right reasons though. :blush:


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## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

GRB said:


> They can't complain either since hundreds of thousands (millions even, globally) of mice and rodents, birds and insects are killed during harvest of grains and vegetables, organic or not.





selina20 said:


> I cant see how vegans can never see this as an issue. The amount of dead birds etc we get in bales of straw for the horses is ridiculous. I even found a family of dead hedgehogs one year.


 
People become veg*n to cut down on the amount of animals dying for their food. Yes, a lot will assume the ostritch position and stick their heads in the sand but not all. The extremists and the ones that do the ostritch are usually the ones people see and hear, we are not all like that.

I don't like animals dying for anything of mine food or otherwise, but realistically I know it cannot always be avoided. I became vegan so at least the number is lessened (and because TBH the though, smell, sight etc of meat makes me nauseous). It is better to make a small difference than to make none at all.


Just thought i'd interject with my tuppence on this area of the discussion


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

At what point do people think they've moved from making or answering their point to character assassination. Its blatantly obvious to most people that Viv has made some errors, really doesn't need to be thrust into her face though.

As for assumptions, lets just remind everyone of the OPs reason for getting 100s of species:
"I'm looking at mite species on tropical arachnids" for his Uni dissertation. 

I find it rather odd when people include so much more, its almost as if to support their argument they have to stack it with other issues. And before people start getting all scientific again why not suggest to the OP ways of achieving his objective without the possible need for the death of the Ts.


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## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

Whoa my internet has been down for a day and I missed WW3?
Just to clarify I am hoping for as many species as possible. Not numbers of specimens but number of species if this is only 10 then 10 it'll be, but would you rather 10 of one species or 10 different species? 

Taking a hundred different species from they're natural habitat is hardly going to make a dent on the ecosystem is it? (Obviously if they all live in the same ecosystem and all have their individual niches then maybe? but I doubt that's the case lol) In comparison to taking a hundred of one species for people to keep in plastic tubs next to each other?

The research that will be undertaken will include euthanising the specimens, then collecting the mite species for identification, also the specimen will be screened for neogregarines and any other parasites. 

This allows us to understand how the underworld of the mites work lol. This then stems to how we could use or control this for our advantage. This will be apparent in this hobby right here. We all know some mites are good, we all know some are bad.

Oh and sorry for the bloodbath guys


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

sdh_22 said:


> Whoa my internet has been down for a day and I missed WW3?
> Just to clarify I am hoping for as many species as possible. Not numbers of specimens but number of species if this is only 10 then 10 it'll be, but would you rather 10 of one species or 10 different species?
> 
> Taking a hundred different species from they're natural habitat is hardly going to make a dent on the ecosystem is it? (Obviously if they all live in the same ecosystem and all have their individual niches then maybe? but I doubt that's the case lol) In comparison to taking a hundred of one species for people to keep in plastic tubs next to each other?
> ...


You have no reason to apologise at all, and good luck with your studies.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

No matter how important this is to you, you're still going to geting live wild caught spiders and killing them. How on earth did you expect this to be taken? Why can't you use dead spiders from forum users on here?


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

spidersteve said:


> No matter how important this is to you, you're still going to geting live wild caught spiders and killing them. How on earth did you expect this to be taken? Why can't you use dead spiders from forum users on here?


Because his study isn't based on the relationship between native mites and captive bred tarantulas but tropical mites. I don't see why coming to a hobby that is one of the biggest importers of WC tarantulas is the wrong place to ask about obtaining WC tarantulas.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

I cant see where I said that?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> No matter how important this is to you, you're still going to geting live wild caught spiders and killing them. How on earth did you expect this to be taken?* Why can't you use dead spiders from forum users on here?*



Because they won't in all likelihood have tropical mites on them.

I don't see the big deal - nobody bats and eyelid when someone tries to start up a communal tank "on a punt" or reports feeding other spiders to their tarantulas, or wild caught UK insects as livefood etc. As I said before, half of you were all "OK" with some dude going and collecting wild sphagnum moss willy nilly for decoration too. Why is it somehow worse when it's a tarantula and not so bad when it's hobbyists pillaging the local countryside, oblivious to the needs of the local Tardigrades, Collembolans and various other small critters?

Hate to say it, but ecologically most tarantula species accomplish squat compared to the ecological impact of springtails and araneomorph spiders. It'd make more sense to me to be reverent about the unsung little guys.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

sdh_22 said:


> Whoa my internet has been down for a day and I missed WW3?
> Just to clarify I am hoping for as many species as possible. Not numbers of specimens but number of species if this is only 10 then 10 it'll be, but would you rather 10 of one species or 10 different species?
> 
> Taking a hundred different species from they're natural habitat is hardly going to make a dent on the ecosystem is it? (Obviously if they all live in the same ecosystem and all have their individual niches then maybe? but I doubt that's the case lol) In comparison to taking a hundred of one species for people to keep in plastic tubs next to each other?
> ...


i'm seeing a slight flaw in your research.....mite migration.....mites can and do move around, carrying with them other pathogens....ask anyone thats noticed mites in one enclosure from a WC and then a couple of weeks later in what was a sterile enclosure some feet away.

your source will have to....and you will have to....guarantee that each species has been kept 'sterile' from any other spider enclosures before your research starts, and during....otherwise your research will be quite invalid and your paper on the subject useless


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

I was referring to "I don't see why coming to a hobby that is one of the biggest importers of WC tarantulas is the wrong place to ask about obtaining WC tarantulas." I never said it was the wrong place to look, infact I merely pointed out that most of the users in here see their pet spiders as exactly that "pets" and not research test subjects and to wonder why there was WW3 was naive if anything.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> I was referring to "I don't see why coming to a hobby that is one of the biggest importers of WC tarantulas is the wrong place to ask about obtaining WC tarantulas." I never said it was the wrong place to look, infact I merely pointed out that most of the users in here see their pet spiders as exactly that "pets" and not research test subjects and to wonder why there was WW3 was naive if anything.


But he wasn't asking to use their pets, he asked if anyone could suggest a supplier.


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## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes that is very true, I as of yet still have no idea how this is going to happen, but I have faith in my supervisor, who is well known in the parasite world lol (<how bad does that sound?)


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## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

Well if your offering maybe you could lend me some of yours?? haha


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm never going to post anything in these forums again.


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

spidersteve said:


> I'm never going to post anything in these forums again.


Well, thats a bit of a shame. Why are people so afraid of debate and having their views challenged?


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

spidersteve said:


> I'm never going to post anything in these forums again.


 
Bro dont be daft it's just a debate fella, everyone has different opinions on this subject and for sure it will leave some people a little bitter with regard to animal death etc...

This is one debate in thousands that go on all the time.... Not something to leave the forums over


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

spidersteve said:


> I'm never going to post anything in these forums again.


That is a shame. A bit of healthy debate and disagreement is good as long as it doesnt get too personal and nasty.

If people left every time somebody else didn't agree with their views, the whole forum will end up full of sycophantic daisies of wonderment. A bit like the 18+ section is now :lol2:


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

spidersteve said:


> I'm never going to post anything in these forums again.


Again this is a shame if you've been put off from feeling you don't want to post again.

But just to echo what others have kind of already said.... it's a place for healthy discussion and debate, if your passionate about something or feel you have strong views on a subject then don't be afraid to say so and stand by it.

You'll never find that people share the same views all the time.... but don't be afraid to cunjure up your opinion and chime in on a thread if you have something to say ... stand your ground, just be prepared to back things up with the all the facts etc.
-P


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

sdh_22 said:


> Whoa my internet has been down for a day and I missed WW3?
> Just to clarify I am hoping for as many species as possible. Not numbers of specimens but number of species if this is only 10 then 10 it'll be, but would you rather 10 of one species or 10 different species?
> 
> Taking a hundred different species from they're natural habitat is hardly going to make a dent on the ecosystem is it? (Obviously if they all live in the same ecosystem and all have their individual niches then maybe? but I doubt that's the case lol) In comparison to taking a hundred of one species for people to keep in plastic tubs next to each other?
> ...



Don't be sorry, it's just conflicting opinions, I'm not upset about our debate yesterday and I'm sure GRB isn't either, it's healthy. :whistling2:

But I do have a few questions still if you don't mind me asking? Why do you need so many? Surely it's going to be a massive piece of research just for a dissertation, or are you further and an undergraduate? 

Also do you have permission to do this study? It's just if I have to do research(which I'm not) I'd have to go through the ethical committee, do you have anything like this? I can't see it being ethical to kill a few hundred spiders.  

Lastly is this research going to be published officially or is it just going to go to a lecturer, marked and forgotten about? 

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'm just curious. :blush:


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## sdh_22 (Jan 16, 2009)

well I am an undergrad but this will eventually be an mRes project, so looking at the next two and a bit years.
We also have quite a strict ethical committee here, but using invertebrates is fine to them.
Well as it is just a dissertation then it won't get directly published. but if we find anything interesting then that will likely be published straight away


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

sdh_22 said:


> well I am an undergrad but this will eventually be an mRes project, so looking at the next two and a bit years.
> We also have quite a strict ethical committee here, but using invertebrates is fine to them.
> Well as it is just a dissertation then it won't get directly published. but if we find anything interesting then that will likely be published straight away


In that case I totally disagree with the whole project so will leave this topic never to return.


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