# Reminder Doncaster exchange of animals



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Dear all,

Just a reminder that exchange of animals in the car park at Doncaster is not permitted, anyone wishing to exchange animals must use the facility provided within the show it’s self.

Stewards will be monitoring the car park and anyone found to be exchanging animals will be banned from entering the show, and reported to the appropriate authorities. You have been warned!

If you wish to use the exchange facility then you must notify the organisers in advance: Richard Brooks 01274 548342 or email [email protected]


----------



## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

As a fee paying table holder and like others in the same situ who has it drummed into us at show after show about suitable sized containers and handing out of care sheets etc. Have the sellers using this swap shop been instructed to comply with these box standard sensible requirements or are they exempt?


----------



## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> Stewards will be monitoring the car park and anyone found to be exchanging animals will be banned from entering the show, and reported to the appropriate authorities.



The authorities can/will do nothing whatsoever because:

1. It is a private car park

2. These "authorities" must have absolute proof. Hearsay and number plates written on a bit of paper are not proof. Illegal activity must be caught in the act or evidence produced that proves beyond reasonable doubt that anything illegal has taken place.

I am afraid the only thing that can be done is a ban on entering show. However, who says these people will be wanting to enter the show anyway.


----------



## Row'n'Bud (Jun 13, 2010)

Wee modern piece of equipment info for you mccee.......

THE CAMERA !!!!


----------



## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

Row'n'Bud said:


> Wee modern piece of equipment info for you mccee.......
> 
> THE CAMERA !!!!


And what would the camera show? One person handing over a box to another? This does not prove that what they are doing is illegal, even if the box did contain an animal.

Besides, getting the images will be difficult at best and I do not think the IHS an FBH are going to go to that much effort to go covert.

It will be the hardest job in the world to for the IHS or FBH to convince the "authorities" to take any action, whatsoever. Merely saying "we saw something" and throwing a couple of photos or a video at them will not prove anything, especially if it took place on on private property. 

I agree that if they want to ban people from shows then that is their perogative but getting the authorities involved? It will never happen and th IHS and FBH know this.


----------



## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

MCEE said:


> And what would the camera show? One person handing over a box to another? This does not prove that what they are doing is illegal, even if the box did contain an animal.
> 
> Besides, getting the images will be difficult at best and I do not think the IHS an FBH are going to go to that much effort to go covert.
> 
> ...


Why don't you just trot on by???? With people like you around, we don't need the anti's.... you do their job for them with your negative attitude and nothing good to say.... then again, it takes all sorts and in this life there are some sad people who cannot see any good in very much at all..... :bash:


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Thankfully, I think most people are good and honest. They will have used the table provided for the exchanges.
People like mcee are few are far between. It won't be long before they all go away for the quiet period.


----------



## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

Tarron said:


> Thankfully, I think most people are good and honest. They will have used the table provided for the exchanges.


Agreed.


> People like mcee are few are far between.


Indeed. I am that rare breed who is not afraid to put his head above the parapet in these forums in order to draw attention to the fact that certain herp organisations do not have all the answers they would like us to believe they have.

Having said that, let me get one thing straight. I do not condone illegal activity. Far from it. However, I am more than willing to point out flaws in rules imposed by self appointed custodians of our hobby and I am also willing to point out that these same custodians are more than willing to play on people's fear to try and get people to abide by them.


> It won't be long before they all go away for the quiet period.


Don't you believe it.


----------



## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

MCEE said:


> Agreed.
> Indeed. I am that rare breed who is not afraid to put his head above the parapet in these forums in order to draw attention to the fact that certain herp organisations do not have all the answers they would like us to believe they have.
> 
> Having said that, let me get one thing straight. I do not condone illegal activity. Far from it. However, I am more than willing to point out flaws in rules imposed by self appointed custodians of our hobby and I am also willing to point out that these same custodians are more than willing to play on people's fear to try and get people to abide by them.
> Don't you believe it.


I have no problem with people pointing out flaws in most situations, especially if they have some form of suggestion, or better still, can offer some action to help the situation. What really grinds my gears is people who love to point out the flaws and then sit back on their ass with a self satisfied grin and a feeling that they have done something positive.. unfortunately, they are ten a penny, and not a very rare breed at all..... :whistling2:


----------



## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

Janine00 said:


> I have no problem with people pointing out flaws in most situations, especially if they have some form of suggestion, or better still, can offer some action to help the situation.


What if there is no solution?
The flaw in this particular situation is that the FBH and IHS seem to think that the "_authorities_" will be interested in reports that they "saw some exchanges being made in the car park and here are the car number plates".
Well, I can bet, with some certainty that the reply from these authorities would be, "so what"?

Any activity the FBH/IHS disapprove of would only be contrary to their own, self imposed (read *self imposed*) rules, taken place on private land. This means that any breaking of rules would be a civil matter between the owners of the land (and/or their hirers).

However, the FBH et al seem to think it is OK to threaten people with these "_authorities_", and are happy to play on people's fear, if they do not to comply with their rules.

I do, indeed, have a solution. The FBH et al need to stop acting like the big "I am" and treating people with contempt everytime their is a possibility one of their own rules may be broken. By all means they are free to impose their own punishments to show-goers or members of their organisations, but to suggest that the "_authorities_" will have any interest is absurd and implies they will threaten anything that might make sure hobbyists tow the line.


----------



## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

Whilst he or she may be irritating Rob Roy Mack knackered Knee has got a vaild point about the authorities enthusiasm to act on any information they would receive. The insurmountable problems our dysfunctional big society throws up round the clock to these relevant authorities probably means any information passed to them regarding dealings in a racecourse car park will inevitably go in the bin.


----------



## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

MCEE said:


> What if there is no solution?
> The flaw in this particular situation is that the FBH and IHS seem to think that the "_authorities_" will be interested in reports that they "saw some exchanges being made in the car park and here are the car number plates".
> Well, I can bet, with some certainty that the reply from these authorities would be, "so what"?
> 
> ...





MCEE said:


> Agreed.
> Indeed. I am that rare breed who is not afraid to put his head above the parapet in these forums in order to draw attention to the fact that certain herp organisations do not have all the answers they would like us to believe they have.
> 
> Having said that, let me get one thing straight. I do not condone illegal activity. Far from it. However, I am more than willing to point out flaws in rules imposed by self appointed custodians of our hobby and I am also willing to point out that these same custodians are more than willing to play on people's fear to try and get people to abide by them.
> Don't you believe it.





MCEE said:


> And what would the camera show? One person handing over a box to another? This does not prove that what they are doing is illegal, even if the box did contain an animal.
> 
> Besides, getting the images will be difficult at best and I do not think the IHS an FBH are going to go to that much effort to go covert.
> 
> ...


They organise a whole show for you and you don't want to follow the rules because according to you they can't prove you're acting illegally?They organised the whole show for you, if it wasn't for them there wouldn't be a show and you can't be bothered to walk inside?


----------



## Row'n'Bud (Jun 13, 2010)

Think i'll go to a private venue, get stoned, strip off and go on a killing spree......sure i'll be ok as it's a private venue on private land so only civil offences and of no interest to the authorities according to mcflee


----------



## badger13 (Mar 5, 2009)

The APA can disband as we seem to be on a self destruction path disagreeing over this topic 
There are several other car parks in the area if thats what you want. Problem being as we get to the colder weather do we really want to leave our new purchase in sub zero temps while we spend the rest of the day walking round the venue And what if our purchase was to (escape) If the IHS provide facilities for exchange of purchases then surely we should use it. I think tongue in cheek if we are told not to do some thing we go ahead and do it just to prove we can.


----------



## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

It's just imature , stupidity


----------



## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

OK, this is my last one in response as I have far better things to do with my time than to talk to people who if put in an empty room with just a paper bag would still manage to argue themselves to a standstill.....



MCEE said:


> What if there is no solution?  At least we get up off our keyboards of an ass and try to do something about what is seen as a problem that is or has the potential to affect the hobby.
> The flaw in this particular situation is that the FBH and IHS seem to think that the "_authorities_" will be interested in reports that they "saw some exchanges being made in the car park and here are the car number plates".
> Well, I can bet, with some certainty that the reply from these authorities would be, "so what"?
> 
> ...


This is where you and I will just really need to agree to disagree, as I don't see it so much as threats as a reminder of the potential consequences to people so far up themselves that don't give a s**te about how their actions could potentially affect not only themselves but many others who enjoy shows and all of the other things that go with this hobby (annoying as they sometimes are). :lol2:


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

penfold said:


> It's just imature , stupidity


Considering you were seen selling GTP's you'd imported for resale before you set up your shop at a previous Doncaster show, (mentioned on here at the time) I find the irony of your comments most amusing!

You're in no position to judge anyone really. It's exactly this kind of behaviour that threatens the shows. I'm pleased to see it stamped out. I guess I'm not alone also.


----------



## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

Mynki clear your damn inbox :lol2:


----------



## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

Mynki said:


> Considering you were seen selling GTP's you'd imported for resale before you set up your shop at a previous Doncaster show, (mentioned on here at the time) I find the irony of your comments most amusing!
> 
> You're in no position to judge anyone really. It's exactly this kind of behaviour that threatens the shows. I'm pleased to see it stamped out. I guess I'm not alone also.


Oh dear lol surplus livestock is aloud we had a deal on snakes we wanted with some surplus and also they were cb now what has that to do with someone moaning that they are not aloud to trade in a car park when they can use a table inside


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

penfold said:


> Oh dear lol surplus livestock is aloud we had a deal on snakes we wanted with some surplus and also they were cb now what has that to do with someone moaning that they are not aloud to trade in a car park when they can use a table inside


 
So you are saying it was OK for people to import stock for the purposes of resale and then try and flog it at a show in Donny shortly after? :lol2:

You even told me who you'd imported them from just before the show! I'm not so sure that is allowed or even 'aloud'! 

Anyway, the IHS have stamped out this selfish behaviour so the shows should come under less flack from the antis.


----------



## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

I also sold a couple for a mate at kempton the first time that show was held if you would like to add that to your list of my sales


----------



## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

[

I am very surprised that the moderators have not picked up on this conversation between these erstwhile friends (Penfold & Minky) and scrubbed it off as it is manner from heaven for the anti reptile lobby to cut and paste into their collection of evidence.


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Austin Allegro said:


> [
> 
> I am very surprised that the moderators have not picked up on this conversation between these erstwhile friends (Penfold & Minky) and scrubbed it off as it is manner from heaven for the anti reptile lobby to cut and paste into their collection of evidence.


The situation was discussed elsewhere on this forum back in 2010. But as I've said, this sort of behaviour has since been stamped out.


----------



## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

Mynki said:


> The situation was discussed elsewhere on this forum back in 2010. But as I've said, this sort of behaviour has since been stamped out.


 So question 2 is why was this not stamped on in 2010? Claims and statements, in the public domain, as to the inappropriate sourcing of animals placed on sale as SURPLUS STOCK at shows has the potential to bring the hobby into disrepute.


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

You'll have to ask the show organisers for an answer.


----------



## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

This is a dig at noone but I think we should want to up the standards ourselves we should want the best for our hobby!But instead it's taking the APA's attacks for us to make those changes, perhaps some good has came from it. I think the caresheet idea and the box sizes reccommendations at Donny was brilliant and I think that should definitely be continued. Aswell as the improvements in space in terms of venue. I hope we continue to make improvements like this regardless of being attacked by antis.


----------



## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

Mynki said:


> You'll have to ask the show organisers for an answer.


Not too sure the organisers would of been aware of the practice as there is no box to tick for the rapid resale of imported animals on table booking forms. As far as I am aware forms generally state no sale of immediate wild caughts (except after a breeding program = surplus breeding stock) and all other animals should be surplus breeding stock which does not seem to be the same as surplus imported stock?


----------



## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

There was no immediate sale any gtps that had been taken to shows were always in my care for at least 2 months to make sure all was feeding etc


----------



## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

And to be fair I do not recall any conversation nor do I care as we did nowt wrong


----------

