# CANNIBALISM IN MICE (Warning - Depressing Thread!) lol



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

SOUNDS SILLY BUT PLEASE DONT READ THIS IF YOU FIND THIS ISSUE TOO DISTRESSING!!!!!!!

Hi Everyone,

I have tried raising the issue of fancy mice cannibalising litters with mouse breeders but have been met with stony silence.

I would be interested to hear anyone elses experience but I have tried almost everything I can think of to cure/understand whole litters of mice being wiped out by the mother. I have tested the following:

First I gave unlimited food (in a HUGE dish) and water thinking that mum was culling down the litter due to food availability. Didn't work.

Then I reduced the size of the tank to a 10 gallon on the only suggestion from a top breeder due to too much space/too large territory to control causing stress. Didn't work.

Then, drastically, I changed my entire line of mice to eliminate the chance I had a particularly aggressive/ skittish line. No difference. 

I now have what I think is a top setup simulating a perfect natural environment with a wooden bark covered box having nest and food chambers plus multiple exits, all in a 10 gal tank. 

Yesterday I saw what I thought was a mummy mouse trying to take an escapee back to the nest but the ONE WEEK OLD baby, fully furred but no eyes open struggling as if it were fighting for its life. I watched. Daddy mouse came out looking a little upset/helpless then skulked off back inside. I watched closely and saw mummy mouse actually pulling the skin of the baby and chewing it. She was not making attempts to kill, she was literally trying to eat this healthy, fit baby alive. 

I didn't take the lid off the nest but put food on the top to entice/distract the girls out. I thought it worked but last night I took a look inside and the litter of 15 is now 8. Now this is not a newborn litter, I fully accept there are reasons for culling a newborn litter to size, removing deformities/runts and even nutrient re-uptake for the lactating doe. 

BUT a) Why would a mouse kill her week old healthy young? 

and b) why is it that occassionally, the only small sign, should I be keen enough to notice, that a litter has even been born is a piece of blood stained bedding?


I am down to one last obvious test and that will be diet. I tackled diet by adding rat mix to the hamster mix the mice were on as rat food has added protein/meat ingredients. 

I was planning to give chicken and egg. Any other suggestions?


Thanks for reading- I am not trying to tarnish the great rep of pet mice as I think I can safely say this happens with all species. I am only trying to learn more about mice in particular because their infanticide rates seem so unnatural. 

I would rather understand the 'dark side' of nature than ignore it because we might learn something about rodent husbandry that is relevant to more species than just mice. 


:zzz:Sorry for waffling, this thread is probably more boring than reading the dictionary but I would be interested if anyone has anything to add :mrgreen:

Pouchie.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

hi there

sorry you are not having much luck with the mice ... sometimes mice will just kill whole litters for one reason or another but like you said it is strange that they are doing it at this late stage in the babys development.

firstly i would change there food (this is just my opinion) i dont think hamster food has the right stuff for mice, i feed mine , pellet free rabbit food, mixed with dog mixer, corn flakes, rice puffs, wild bird seed and then also table scraps like chicken, pasta, bred, veg etc.. (great for rats as well with out the bird seed)
i dont know if that will help but i haven't had any problems with it, the only time i loose baby's is with new mums that may cull the litter at birth but this doesn't happen that often as i aways keep my mice in larger groups now so there is always another mouse to take over if the new mum freaks out.

how many females do you keep in one tank ? are any of the females good mums in that tank?


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

when i bred mice i had a few females who will eat their own babies and other female mice's babies, persistant baby eaters were culled, i found that the females who just keep doing it, wont stop no matter what you try.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

ladyboid said:


> hi there
> 
> sorry you are not having much luck with the mice ... sometimes mice will just kill whole litters for one reason or another but like you said it is strange that they are doing it at this late stage in the babys development.
> 
> ...


I have 4 setups. A trio in each (one male, two females).

I will definitely incorporate those things into their diet as their feed seems the obvious answer. We have a bunch of species so buy chinchilla pellets, parrot mix, budgie, canary, rat, hamster, rabbits, guinea pig, gerbil plus crickets/mealies so can do a decent mix out of that lot!

I think there are quite a few factors to get right to reduce cannibalism but I agree that they will always cull down new litters and thats fine. 

Don't get me wrong, we produce some cracking litters and I have no mice I would label a bad mother but if there is something our girls are missing in their environment that they need to cull healthy young, I want to put that right. Same goes for any of our breeding animals - we learn as we go from them but for a species that has been kept as a pet for so long, there seems to be little info on this.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

punky_jen said:


> when i bred mice i had a few females who will eat their own babies and other female mice's babies, persistant baby eaters were culled, i found that the females who just keep doing it, wont stop no matter what you try.


 
If my 'diet trials' don't make a significant difference I will look at individuals.

A few people have said they had persistent offenders and I never really considered some mice might just be bad mothers.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Are there any disturbances in the room they're in?

Some mice will eat their babies if they smell another animal that would normally be a predator - including rats.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Are there any disturbances in the room they're in?
> 
> Some mice will eat their babies if they smell another animal that would normally be a predator - including rats.


 
There are no household disturbances as they are in an animal house but smell could be a problem... also in the animal house are: (see my signature, except maine *****)


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## hermanlover (Jul 8, 2007)

i would make a few changes

1) food, i feed all my mice breeding pig food, its cheap, and has high contents of protien, making mice healthier, grow quicker and stronger, also since then i havent had any canabalism atall. 

2) no disturbance atall for first 2 weeks, i try to cut contact as much as i can, i use bigger feed bowls, and water bottles, so that i shouldnt have to do anything for about 3 days (not always possible as water may need topping up, or feed changing) i dont even count the babies, in my eyes if you know how many babies there are you are disturbing them too much. 

3) bedding, when she has babies, no matter what age they are as long as they are under 5 weeks never completly change bedding, mix old stuff with new, so her scent is still there

if she still has problems, i would wipe the line out, and start fresh, from a completly different supplier. 

best of luck
lee


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

californiankinglover said:


> i would make a few changes
> 
> 1) food, i feed all my mice breeding pig food, its cheap, and has high contents of protien, making mice healthier, grow quicker and stronger, also since then i havent had any canabalism atall.
> 
> ...


 
Great thanks! Those are all things I can try.... except maybe changing the line as they are mostly ladyboids :lol2: and are exceptional I have to say. They are the best mice I have ever had and always send people ladyboids way : victory:


I am interested that you have had no cannibalism at all, I was resigned to not being able to curb it completely. 
I suppose if you disturb them that little you may not know if any are culled at birth but I am only trying to stop them culling older babies and entire litters at birth.


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## hermanlover (Jul 8, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> Great thanks! Those are all things I can try.... except maybe changing the line as they are mostly ladyboids :lol2: and are exceptional I have to say. They are the best mice I have ever had and always send people ladyboids way : victory:
> 
> 
> I am interested that you have had no cannibalism at all, I was resigned to not being able to curb it completely.
> I suppose if you disturb them that little you may not know if any are culled at birth but I am only trying to stop them culling older babies and entire litters at birth.


well i used to have a lot of canabalism, but i just changed a few things, which i have mentioned to you and since then i havent had any, i know none have been killed as they are all pretty large litters, and are kept on shredded paper, so blood stains would show up if they are killed.

hope everything turns out ok
lee


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## SisterMoonbeam (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't have much experience with mice but i have bred russian hamsters a lot in the past and found that cabnnibalism occurs frequently. This is what i did but bear in mind it is a different species but it may be helpful.

Once mum looked like she was about to pop i removed dad - some people would not reccommend this as they are social and group living animals but i found that, as little as two days after giving birth dad was at mum again and if you want lots of babies thats fine but, as i'm sure mum's here will appreciate, the last thing mum wants is to be rogered that soon after giving birth - causing her stress and so leading to canibalism 

Don't touch or do anything, again as she is about to pop move her away from all other animals in a quiet secluded place and only approach her to change water and food. She won't need help raising the babies (as i'm sure you'll know) leaving her almost completely alone is the best method

make sure all other females are removed too, i know peoplw have succsessful breeding colonies but this is just not how i would do things, so i would ensure it is just mum and babies in the cage. 

This may not be applicapple to mice but hope it helps anyway, cannibalism does happen all too often in rodents, it's just a survival method so it's just a case of eliminating all possible elements of stress

Lau


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks for that.

I am interested in the best breeding methods for other rodents and hammies too although we only currently do Syrians and they are black and white!.. Strictly solitary, female in estrus every 4 days, catch the fourth day or be quick to save your male from certain damage! :lol2:


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

I only ever put the male in with the females foe 2 2weeks at a time, so they can become pregnant, as if i leave him in with them they fight all the time, and if i leave him in when the moms have babies, they beat him up, so i remove him and put him with other males. I guess it depends on the rats as to how you can keep them.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

ah you said you hadn't looked at individual mice for the cannibalism, well thats defiantly Worth looking into..... sometimes there will be one that just will not do well with baby's ether her own or others, this could be temperament (not necessarily genetic ether) they might grow out of it but then again they might not.
i would try that one again if it was her first litter , she might surprise you and be a good mum next time round. if she is maybe the reason behind most of your litters being lost i would personally retire her one way or another.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks Kelly,

It should be real easy to keep tabs on each female as they are only in pairs. 

Maybe I will adopt a 2 strikes and your out method. 

Still leaning towards diet though as all of the girls have successfully raised lovely litters so I def have no serial baby killers that kill everything in sight. 

The female I caught eating an older baby alive has been an excellent mother thus far. 

How anyone can say rodents are borin i'll never know! :lolsign:


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## commanderamanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Ive had the same problem, my male was eating his young I think it was because when the female has her litter she wont mate again for a few weeks and the male gets jealous and so kills the young so she will mate again so I removed him after she got pregnant the second time and all went to plan


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

As some have mentioned, the threat of other predator animals might also do it. Out of interest, do you wash your hands thoroughly after doing the rats before doing the mice?
Could you also move the mice out to where there are no rats and see if that makes a difference?


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

I understand why a male might cull the litter if the female is not willing to remate but I don't think this is my particular problem. I am sure it is the females deciding what to keep and what to eat!

my mice have been living with the same scents around and the same other species since I had them so I would imagine they are used to it. They have had many successful litters in the presence of the same room mates.

we do wash our hands inbetween species too due to keeping both exotic and domestics. i also have a thing about giving everyone the same bottle back and food bowl etc.

The other problem is I can try putting them in my house but the other predatory noise I can't control is birds. There is a psychotic sounding owl by us that hoots manically every night and there is what sounds like a kestrel that I hear most nights too.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Although l have read this thread a couple of times, l am not sure if this has been discussed fully.

When you say fancy mice are you refering to full on pedigree mice or are you saying as in shop 'fancy' mice or are you referring to whites as in lab mice?

Also what is the purpose for your mice? Are they bred for the reptile table or are they bred for commercial gain as in pet shop sales?

Regards Rory


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Although l have read this thread a couple of times, l am not sure if this has been discussed fully.
> 
> When you say fancy mice are you refering to full on pedigree mice or are you saying as in shop 'fancy' mice or are you referring to whites as in lab mice?
> 
> ...


Hi Rory,

I am referring to Fancy Mice - bred to be sold as pets.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Okay, 

Well humour me during my questions. I used to run 4500 mice for the pet trade, which were pedigree and fancy. 

What varieties are you running, standard variety fancy mouse or hybrids? In other words were/are they recognised varieties of fancy or 'odd ball' as in a mis match of varieties?

There are usually only a few areas in which you can look at :

Diet
Environment
Interaction
Husbandry
Genetical Makeup

But the first thing to identify is which mice you are working with?

Rory


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Okay,
> 
> Well humour me during my questions. I used to run 4500 mice for the pet trade, which were pedigree and fancy.
> 
> ...


 
Both. We have recognised varieties eg black fox/blue/blue fox/siamese and also marked mice who do not conform to a pattern standard. 

We are not breeding for colour or for show, at present we are breeding for health & temperament to be sold privately as pets.

With regard to the points you mention, I have addressed environment, I am addressing diet and I think I can improve methods of interaction.

Your experience of cannibalism whilst running 4500 mice would be greatly appreciated.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

What l mean by interaction is how much you 'fuss' them?

Do you leave them to their own devices or continually fuddle with them in order to achieve 'friendly' animals?

R


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> What l mean by interaction is how much you 'fuss' them?
> 
> Do you leave them to their own devices or continually fuddle with them in order to achieve 'friendly' animals?
> 
> R


Interesting point. I have found in all species I have bred that leaving the breeding animals alone with minimal interaction is best. I enjoy thinking of environmental enrichment for our animals who are not 'with litter' but I think raising a litter and living in a natural community is environmentally enriching enough. In my opinion, handling breeding animals does nothing but add to stress.

I am a watcher rather than a fusser anyway but the only animals we handle each day are the young waiting to be sold. Even these we only handle once they are weaned. 

None of our 'breeding methods' are taken from any book although I do read what I can. Most of our husbandry methods are moulded and tweaked from experience.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I have to be honest, l did not really experience great cannibalism issues after about year 1. I bred commercially for about eight years starting with a small nucleus in 1994 of only about 400 trios.

I started with a very good nucleus of pedigree livestock from the best mouse breeders of the time, and then also had about 100 trios of hybrid outcross stock.

I noticed within the first instances that some of the pedigree varieties were extremely poor mothers, and if the latter was not the case, then we also had lethal gene pools around from some of the very specialised colour variations.

The reason behind the importing of the hybrid blood genes was to have the young from the first litters of hybrid stock to the first young of the pedigree stock lines to increase the vigour for pet shop lines.

The better quality mice went into the breeding programmes and the poorer quality went directly into the pet trade.

So also another issue that could be looked at is where and whom you are purchasing your mouse breeders from. Remembering that poorer quality mice are sold in shops, but also the better quality mice will be kept back by the breeders.

Cannibalism is usually a result of diet, husbandry, too much interaction, wrong type of enclosure [be it to small or too large] - also as in environmental conditions, and of course genetical make up.

I can only pen a post here that you may find of some interest to you and your issues at present.

Diet

Diet is always a huge significant factor with mice, well to be honest - rodents as a whole. I think the second or third post summed it pretty well. But diet must be very seriously looked at and researched into properly and a good diet is going to cost more than the usual prepacked meals sold in stores.

The addition of supplemented extras such as pasta, chicken scraps etc [as per second post is important] for it is vital in cases such as this to ensure that the mice receive a higher protein diet. Small puppy mix or indeed a terrier mixer is always a bonus, smaller biscuit pieces rather than huge biscuits, which are usually a dead loss.

I personally would never recommend the pignut, they will of course like all rodents eat it, whether they enjoy it is another matter entirely, and whilst yes l feel sure the writer of this inclusion may well bite back, fine.

l used them for about a month, but l would discredit the use of a pig nut in any commendable diet for rodents. They just simply do not possess the right compound unless of course you mean that you specifically have your enriched diet specially prepared in pignut fashion?

Cry out should you wish - but been there, done it, and disregarded it as non viable.

Spend more on a fully researched diet, add the supplements as the other writer pointed out and you will start to see a marked improvement. But if that is what works for the writer then so be it.

Husbandry/Environment/Enclosures

Husbandry can be looked at in various angles, too much cleaning and you risk problems, clean out way too little and again you will experience problems. Clean out once every two to three weeks tops and be done with it.

When you have litters present, there are two ways possible, one do as he novice does and clean out all of the enclosure bar the nest itself or as experience allows you to, clean out the whole enclosure and eventually they get so used to it, they see no predatory element to being cleaned out.

On the subject of predation, there are always features that may be problematic, but unless you have wild rats or some huge carnivore bothering your animals on a nightly basis, this should not be considered a problem. A screeching owl, would not bother your mice in the slightest.

Interaction - leave the mice be, too much 'interaction, fuddling, fussing, will basically pee off the mothers and they will start to cannibalise. 

Novice level: Once a litter is born, leave the nest and the mothers alone, and wait until the young are about three weeks of age before looking at them, just feed and water as normal.

Advanced levels - commercial breeders, who run huge numbers of mice, rarely have this problem nor do they suffer it gladly. But cleaning is done once every two weeks and all mothers and young are moved to a new clean unit.

In so far as if there is a problem with the females, then they will wipe out entire lines and re start – a wipe is just that – an entire wipe out with a complete restart – full disinfection of all units, complete clean out of space and so on.

How you dress your environment is also an important feature, what size enclosure you use as to whether it be too big or too small. The Europeans would have us believe and l have no real reason to discredit them, that if you want successful litters with no problems what so ever then the smaller the enclosure the better.

Animal welfare does not rule Europe as much as it rules us and of course we have to play the game here to be seen as politically correct. But if you running trios which l believe you have said you are, then an 18" glass tank is more than adequate or perhaps animal welfare would have them in a 24" tank [excuse inches, but l am terribly old fashioned and still work in imperial sizing].

Shavings being the easiest substrate to use, with a simple nester, l have used in the past, soft meadow hay, crumpled or shredded oat straw, defluffed bull rush head, shredded rape straw, and dried keck [cows parsley], but for commercial nesting properties then a soft meadow hay is ideal although some have recommended other commercial fabric bedding, such as the ‘dishcloth stuff’ or the bedding that resembles tissues shreds. [I do not recommend the latter two]


Always make sure that there are plenty of safe houses for litters and their mothers’ present, so nest boxes and hideaways – so to a trio, a total of four or five is appropriate.

In the days l was running a commercial mouser, l used an 18" long box with a sloped front and ran only pairs within. It was not a lab box, or shoe box as many would instantly think, but at 18Lx10Wx7"H it was all in one metal container, l had bought some 1500 of these from an old German nut and bolt factory – they were their stackable storage bins, and l had them in rows of 10 high. If l could figure out how to use photobucket properly l could probably show you. And when these were not in action, l used the old fashioned mouse box as is described in the book for mouse fanciers, which l will look up. – but which was highly recommended by show breeders, same dimensions exactly as the metal enclosure and served ideally for many years.

However, as a commercial unit, all it had in so far as dress code was shavings and bedding, and the mouse bred continually and favourably with never any problems. But this was some 5 years ago when commercial units were not under the same bindings of animal welfare that they are now.

So it could be said that provide little environment and they breed well in comparison to providing heaps of stimuli and they slow down and create problems … ?

Finally, l would say look at Genetical components – how good is the actual quality of the livestock you are dealing with – how inbred, outbred, outcrossed or in crossed they may be, how true to the original breeding line are they? Are they a far cry from the original vigour, or closely resemble it?

Is it really the females at fault or are they just ‘offing’ poor stock that they gave birth to? Is there a fault with the males, for it is too easy to look at the females alone when perhaps the males are at fault.

I used to have only big balled bucks used for breeding, and small balled bucks were either sold for pet shop or culled out from the breeding routines.

What is the overall vigour like of the breeding herd, if it is poor, then a cull is a necessity, complete wipe out of all breeding units and then a re-start. If you are looking to supply commercially for private gain, then one must look at the overall quality and not cut corners but go around even if it is more expensive – cutting corners any where in production for resale – will only lead to profit loss and miserable problems.

There are many factors involved with running a profitable mouser, but these are perhaps the only issues l could see that would be creating a reoccurring cannibalism problem.

I don’t know if any of this helps, or if in fact is more boring than the original poster thought their start off was.

I had problems for about six months of my first year of breeding, l followed a fairly stringent course of action utilising what l make mention to above and then after culling and resorting and regrading slowly eliminated the problems, and then apart from a few cases later on, never had big issues with it again.

Also another thing, look at the age of your does, dont run anything past 16 months - too old then.

Rory


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Rory,

I am sure I and others can take some valuable pointers from your experiences with such a large mousery. 

I have systematically covered one or two issues already but will definitely address diet next and hopefully even improve the diets of my other rodent species in the process. 

I am pleased to have started this thread as I was beginning to think I was the only one experiencing cannibalism due to the silence from the show mouse community who maybe don't have this problem or maybe do not address it. 

Seems a strange place to discuss optimum mouse husbandry on a forum where most just breed to feed! Sorry guys :blush:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Pouchie, 

The problems with the mouse community are reknowned.

I never had any specific dealings with them apart from buying my nucleus livestock lines.

If you say to one mouse breeder you have this problem, they will instantly deny they have ever had it, for to admit to it shows a failing somewhere in their own husbandry.

No body likes to admit to failings, but to be honest l have seen more honesty in this forum than l have ever seen in any other forum.

Cannibalism is a taboo subject with show breeders in rodents.

Its simple, it happens, they deal with it, move on and don't tend to discuss it.

I remember many years ago, a fantastic breeder of red Dutch mice, they are not seen now, sadly. A beautiful lustre red mouse is truly a glorious specimen, they are hard to breed in the first place, and l have known top mouse breeders of days gone to feed pigs blood into the feeds a couple of weeks prior to a show to deepen the colour of their mice, yet l digress.

The red Dutch breeder was so fanatical and protective of his breeding line, that he never told any other mouse breeder how to achieve it. He died, and thus his notes were burned, he took his secret to the graveside.

Why on earth, would you think that on a forum would they really wish to discuss cannibalistic failings in their herds, lol?

R


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

This is for multimammates... but figure it might be similar to the discussion...

We have experienced the canibalism to a small degree, and we changed a few things. We were using the shunamite diet, but noticed not everything was being eaten. We provided them with millet, and occasionally chicken.

The shunamite diet is meant to contain 14% protein i believe, and we were thinking this might just not be enough. So we started using some pig grower which is 16% protein as more of a regular diet, with the odd bit of dog kibble thats 24% protein every now and again... something like every fortnight (i know too much protein can cause kidney problems). We decided to change it so the protein in their diet would be higher, so we made the pig grower the staple diet, with rabbit food from the shunamite diet more in the way of a treat. We still provide them with lots of millet, and sometimes i give them soya milk. They love curly kale as well and carrots. So we do provide variety. I've seen our multi's eat the pig grower while the millet is in the same tank, and i know they love millet.

I've not had any babies since i changed their main diet from the shunamite to the pig grower, but i've been changing colony's around.. so just waiting on some more babies being born... so fingers crossed


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> If you say to one mouse breeder you have this problem, they will instantly deny they have ever had it, for to admit to it shows a failing somewhere in their own husbandry.


Rory, your post sums up my feelings on the matter precisely. 

I am sure there are many more 'red dutch mouse' stories to be told in the animal world.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

royalpython said:


> This is for multimammates... but figure it might be similar to the discussion...
> 
> We have experienced the canibalism to a small degree, and we changed a few things. We were using the shunamite diet, but noticed not everything was being eaten. We provided them with millet, and occasionally chicken.
> 
> ...


be interested to know how you get on with the next litter: victory:


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

I had a strange experience last month that is directly relevant to this thread. I was grappling with a serious infestation of house mice. I laid traps & was catching them. After 11 'kills' we have seen no more so I guess we managed to 'take out' the entire colony. 

Anyway, one morning I checked my traps and was horrified to discoved a dead mouse whose stomach had been opened and devoured by one of his bretheren.


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## SisterMoonbeam (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't really understand why a breeder would deny experiencing cannibalism and regard it as a failing. Cannibalism happens all too often in rodents and can be instigated by any number of things. How could can natural behaviour be described as a 'failing'?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

GTM raises a very interesting point.

Where abouts are your mice situated Pouchie?

Are they outside in a shed or inside the house?

Wild mouse populations can pay absolute and complete havoc with fancy mice herds.

Parasitically and otherwise.

I have known wild mice to creep into fancy mice enclosures and steal the feed as well as suckle from nursing does.

Predation does not always have to be in the form of eating ones victim but terror and the cause of terror and insecurity - if the mouse feels threatened they may well cannibalise to strenthen.

The devouring story makes me chuckle slightly.

In one of my commercial units around the year 2000, l was based on a farm environment, and of course when you usually arrive in farm environments and using their outbuildings, you have to start the process of needling out the predator livestock - unwanted and undesirable rats and mice and weasles.

We must have had fifty wooden mousetraps to begin with to eliminate the mice, for as every one knows, where there are hundreds of mice, the rats tend to stay away, but when there are no mice the rats come to play!

Mousetraps were useless with the wild rats, so we resorted to the notable sticky pads. 

A piece of platform adhesive with the utmost stickiest of lotions on them, once a foot sticks to it, they struggle and then too late they are completely stuck to.

It was bad enough seeing wild rats chewing off their own legs to get out, but it was worse one morning coming in to find the top half of a rat completely cannibalised by its colleagues ... l always remember that. I am not into unnecssary cruelty even to wild rats, from that point in time we spent more on huge rat traps and preferred to have their backs broken by a metal bar rather than them being eaten! They died with a tad more dignity than being eaten alive!

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

SisterMoonbeam said:


> I don't really understand why a breeder would deny experiencing cannibalism and regard it as a failing. Cannibalism happens all too often in rodents and can be instigated by any number of things. How could can natural behaviour be described as a 'failing'?


Because to admit to cannibalism means you are not doing something right and in the mouse fancy of old and l see by Pouchies' comments also of new - the mouse fancy never changes. This means that you have problems with your herd, and if you have problems with your herd, you will potentially lose sales.

R


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

They are outside in a 'shed' but it is a purpose built concrete block animal house. It is as secure as the house with a concrete floor so pretty secure from wild rodents.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

SisterMoonbeam said:


> How could can natural behaviour be described as a 'failing'?


I agree. All we can do is try to minimise 'undesirable' albeit natural behaviour. 

How striving to improve husbandry methods can be a 'failing' I will never know. 

Sorry to get philosophical, but in my opinion the only failure is believing you know everything.

Now... I think we have set the world to rights between us! :lol2:


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

i must say i enjoyed reading all of that :2thumb:
lots of good points raised and things to think about.

i must say that since my mice have gone outside last year my mice have bred like rabbits and are doing better than ever, they are not even bothered when i clean them out when there is lots of babys about, or if i go through the pinkys sexing them for culling.... 

stick with them and i am sure they will do well for you : victory:


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

we found that giving them a handful of cat biscuits really helped...

we keep our white mice in a large perfecto glass viv... one male, to about 15 females.. 

and they're generally fine.. . we did get a bit of cannabalism to begin with.. but we don't have many problems any more. 

if they don't have enough food or water, that can trigger it.. but as i said, the cat biscuits stopped them, even half way through doing it! 

caught some at it one time, and chucked a handful of cat biscuits in there.. they dropped the babies, and went for the cat food.. and left the rest of the litter alone. 

Sami


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

cat food is normally quite high in protein, so maybe that.


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