# If you had one of these what would you breed with it?



## Rachael Grace (May 4, 2009)

This is a question for the future but I have been lucky enough to purchase a female slowinski cornsnake.

What I was wondering from all you corn morph breeders is what would you breed to her and what would you expect to achieve?

Thanks in advance, shes an early 09 so looking very much to the future.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

I would move this to the snakes section, there are lots of people who can help you there


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## Rachael Grace (May 4, 2009)

Thanks Matt not in any rush but wanted to put in genetics as help section is very busy and things get missed.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

get yourself over to hamm and see a few of the euro breeders you can buy one for around 30-45 euro's  

The corn markets quite even high end morphs and its good to have something usual and pure  I was going to pick up a few last time lovley lil snakes  

Paula


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## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

As said, you really could do with somehow getting hold of a male slowinski to go with your female and go for pure breds.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

forgottenEntity said:


> As said, you really could do with somehow getting hold of a male slowinski to go with your female and go for pure breds.


This would be a good move to see how everything goes : victory:


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## Rachael Grace (May 4, 2009)

Molly75 said:


> get yourself over to hamm and see a few of the euro breeders you can buy one for around 30-45 euro's
> 
> The corn markets quite even high end morphs and its good to have something usual and pure  I was going to pick up a few last time lovley lil snakes
> 
> Paula


Might see if I can talk to OH into that one. Have thought about it, just didnt know where to get another.



forgottenEntity said:


> As said, you really could do with somehow getting hold of a male slowinski to go with your female and go for pure breds.


Starting to think along those lines.



messengermatt said:


> This would be a good move to see how everything goes : victory:


Seems like Im being talked into this lol But must admit that I do have a soft spot for these the pattern and colour depth is amazing in real life and pics just dont do them justice at all.

Will let everyone know how we get on just need to source a male and maybe another pair. We have about 2.5 years before breeding so fingers crossed:2thumb:


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Rachael Grace said:


> Might see if I can talk to OH into that one. Have thought about it, just didnt know where to get another.
> 
> 
> I know a breeder in Hamm who goes to both hamm and houten and sells them for 40 euros for nice large babies  defo worth a visit if you like usual snakes houten snake day is the way to go
> ...


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## Rachael Grace (May 4, 2009)

Molly75 said:


> Rachael Grace said:
> 
> 
> > Might see if I can talk to OH into that one. Have thought about it, just didnt know where to get another.
> ...


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Rachael Grace said:


> This is a question for the future but I have been lucky enough to purchase a female slowinski cornsnake.
> 
> What I was wondering from all you corn morph breeders is what would you breed to her and what would you expect to achieve?
> 
> Thanks in advance, shes an early 09 so looking very much to the future.


Is it 100% the real deal ?.Did you get it from a reliable breeder/Dealer.Coz some naughty people have been selling captive bred Copper/Rootbeer corn that's a Red rat snake(P.G.Guttata)/Great plains rat snake(P.E.Emoryi) hybrid as Kisatchie rat snake(P.G.Slowinskii).

If it's deffo a Kisatchie rat snake(P.G.Slowinskii) then the only mate you want is another Kisatchie rat snake(P.G.Slowinskii).

In the future Kisatchie rat snake(P.G.Slowinskii) 'MAY' just be another Red rat snake(P.G.Guttata) phase.Like the Rosy rat snake(P.G.Rosacea) use to be but is now just another wild Red rat snake(P.G.Guttata) phase.Or even a full species like Great plains rat snake(P.E.Emoryi) use to be a sub-species of Red rat snake(P.G.Guttata).Great plain used to be (P.G.Emoryi).But for now treat Kisatchie rat snake as a sub-species of there own (P.G.Slowinskii) not (P.G.Guttata).

Slowinskii corn/Slowinskii rat snake/Khisatchie corn/Kishatchie rat snake/(Pantherophis.Guttata.Slowinskii).


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Far as I was aware, Gazz, Slowinski's Ratsnakes are officially _Pantherophis slowinskii _- they're listed as a separate species now, same as Emoryi rats are.

And I do agree - "Kisatchie" is not a morph, it's a species; breeding to morph corns will just make hybrid ratsnakes het for whatever morph you've bred to. I'd rather see them bred true and more common in the hobby - not least because I quite like my pair and think they're great snakes on their own without making them Mystical Tutti Frutti Trundlefart Cornsatchies.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Far as I was aware, Gazz, Slowinski's Ratsnakes are officially _Pantherophis slowinskii _- they're listed as a separate species now, same as Emoryi rats are.


They've finally placed them and have 100% put them as there own full species ??.There's quite abit of conflicting info.They gone from Red rat/Great plains intergrade?/hybrid? to Red rat sub-species now they are there own full species ?.Where will the 100% bullet proof info be ?.


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## Rachael Grace (May 4, 2009)

yep they have offically recognised this as a stand alone species. There is a piece about this I googled slowinski corn. He named it to honor his fellow reseacher who had died. It is based on genetics, the guy has done extensive work on this species.

Ssthisto, I did a lot of research into the markers for this one and Im 90% sure that I have a pure. Only problem being is that I cant obtain more from this source as he only has one pair. Hence looking into getting another am now after listening to the views posted that it would be nice to keep them pure as possible instead of crossing. 

So the search begins, unfortunatly I dont think that my present health will give me the opportunity to travel to either of the venues suggested. I will look into obtaining at least one more if not more. So will let you know if I manage this. With any luck my OH may be able to make the trip for me or I may be able to source from an import we will just have to see where I end up.
Many thanks for everyones advice, it is much appreciated and has helped me greatly with my decision.

ps taking a half decent pic of this one is very hard the grey just doesnt show up properly. So awaiting nicer weather to be able to take one outside in natural light with any luck


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

gazz said:


> They've finally placed them and have 100% put them as there own full species ??.There's quite abit of conflicting info.They gone from Red rat/Great plains intergrade?/hybrid? to Red rat sub-species now they are there own full species ?.Where will the 100% bullet proof info be ?.


When talking about living things - and particularly cladistics where scientific names get traded around like Magic cards - there IS no bulletproof info. We're quite likely to see _Pantherophis _and _Lampropeltis _lumped into _Pituophis _in our lifetimes 

But what I've seen thus far is that Slowinski's Ratsnakes have been given full species status.

Rachael: I know that several people are running colubrid imports from the 'States - you could try contacting Ballpiefun (on this forum) and see if Patrick has any breeders on the list with Kisatchies.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

gazz said:


> Is it 100% the real deal ?.Did you get it from a reliable breeder/Dealer.Coz some naughty people have been selling captive bred Copper/Rootbeer corn that's a Red rat snake(P.G.Guttata)/Great plains rat snake(P.E.Emoryi) hybrid as Kisatchie rat snake(P.G.Slowinskii).
> 
> If it's deffo a Kisatchie rat snake(P.G.Slowinskii) then the only mate you want is another Kisatchie rat snake(P.G.Slowinskii).
> 
> ...


Just out of interest Gazz, whould you class this as a Kisatchi?????









Natrix


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Natrix said:


> Just out of interest Gazz, whould you class this as a Kisatchi?????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IMO it's looks about right the color tone looks good.It doesn't look to be a (Guttata/Emoryi) hybrid coz if it was a hybrid with more (Emoryi) blood i'd expect a bigger head IMO.BUT there is another snake that can looks very similar to the Kisatchie rat snake.The the Eastern milk snake(Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum).But i've not seen these in the UK for sale but it's never been a speices i've really looked for.

Eastern milksnake(Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum)


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

gazz said:


> IMO it's looks about right the color tone looks good.It doesn't look to be a (Guttata/Emoryi) hybrid coz if it was a hybrid with more (Emoryi) blood i'd expect a bigger head IMO.BUT there is another snake that can looks very similar to the Kisatchie rat snake.The the Eastern milk snake(Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum).But i've not seen these in the UK for sale but it's never been a speices i've really looked for.
> 
> Eastern milksnake(Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum)


 Interesting, I'll wait until Ssthisto has a look before I say anything more. 

Natrix


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, Natrix, I don't think your snake is (pure) Eastern milksnake, that's for sure - the shape of the scales and the saddle borders are wrong.

Now, it DOES look rather like the photos of adult Louisiana-locality Slowinski's Rats that I've seen... but without being able to see that "very much like a black ratsnake" head I wouldn't like to say it's definitely a Kisatchie either.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Well it's not an Eastern milksnake, a Kisatchi corn or even a Black Rat, it's a snake I bred five years ago. The father was a Carolina corn snake and the mother was an Eastern fox snake. 
I've had several people tell me it's a Kisatchi and what is even more interesting it was black and silver as a baby in the same way that young kisatchi's are. 
I bred this animal for the first time this year to a female Amel corn. The result was 16 eggs all fertile and all the babies have hatched out with the black and silver colour. I'm now waiting to see how these babies develope.

Personally, because of this snake I'm still very uncertain about the purity of Kistchi corns both wild and captive. If I can produce something that looks this much like a Kisatchi in just one crossing how can we be so sure that the animals being described as Kisatchi's aren't just hybrids or possibly animals that started as hybrids many generations ago?

Natrix


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

To be perfectly honest, Natrix...

I've read a couple of studies (which unfortunately I can't remember the links to at the moment, I will try to dig them out) saying that in some cases species do arise BECAUSE of hybridisation. It is quite possible that the original wild Slowinski's Ratsnakes are the result of a cross between proto-corns and proto-foxsnakes (or even modern corns/foxes!).

Could you post a photo of the snake's head? The thing that REALLY strikes me about my Kisatchie pair is that they really do look like Black Ratsnakes in the face.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Natrix said:


> Well it's not an Eastern milksnake, a Kisatchi corn or even a Black Rat, it's a snake I bred five years ago. The father was a Carolina corn snake and the mother was an Eastern fox snake.
> I've had several people tell me it's a Kisatchi and what is even more interesting it was black and silver as a baby in the same way that young kisatchi's are.
> I bred this animal for the first time this year to a female Amel corn. The result was 16 eggs all fertile and all the babies have hatched out with the black and silver colour. I'm now waiting to see how these babies develope.
> 
> ...


That interesting:hmm:.Well Kiatchie rat snake were beleave to be natural(Guttata/Emoryi) hybrids at first some beleave still the case.Fox snake range doesn't hit Khisatchie area though does it ?.That would be a very plausible thinking for the oringin of the Kisatchie rat snake if (Guttata & Vulpina) range ever over laped in the Kisatchie surrounding area.For a F1(Guttata/Vulpina) hybrid that very good Kisatchie rat snake look alike.What's the head shape like ?.

Maybe Fox snakes where let go in the are of Khisatchie a fair time ago ?.

Would DNA testing have been does on wild found Khisatchie rat snake ?.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> To be perfectly honest, Natrix...
> 
> I've read a couple of studies (which unfortunately I can't remember the links to at the moment, I will try to dig them out) saying that in some cases species do arise BECAUSE of hybridisation. It is quite possible that the original wild Slowinski's Ratsnakes are the result of a cross between proto-corns and proto-foxsnakes (or even modern corns/foxes!).
> 
> Could you post a photo of the snake's head? The thing that REALLY strikes me about my Kisatchie pair is that they really do look like Black Ratsnakes in the face.


I've seen several similar (if not the same) reports. 
I've not got any head shots as my old camera didn't do close up shots. My new one does and if I can work out how to use it (LOL) I'll get a head shot tomorrow in the day light. But the head pretty well fits the Kisatchi shape and size.

Natrix


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

gazz said:


> That interesting:hmm:.Well Kiatchie rat snake were beleave to be natural(Guttata/Emoryi) hybrids at first some beleave still the case.Fox snake range doesn't hit Khisatchie area though does it ?.That would be a very plausible thinking for the oringin of the Kisatchie rat snake if (Guttata & Vulpina) range ever over laped in the Kisatchie surrounding area.For a F1(Guttata/Vulpina) hybrid that very good Kisatchie rat snake look alike.What's the head shape like ?.
> 
> Maybe Fox snakes where let go in the are of Khisatchie a fair time ago ?.
> 
> Would DNA testing have been does on wild found Khisatchie rat snake ?.


Yep, I already looked at the lack of overlap in the ranges. Several thoughts I had was 
1) (if the kisatchi is a primal developement) has the fox snake range changed in the distant past 
2) (If the Kisatchi is a modern developement) did some one let some fox snakes go in the Kisatchi area.
3) Is this something that is totally man made and some were released into the wild to validate the new animal as a species and make it more desirable?
4 Is it purely coincidense that the kisatchi corn and my Hybrid look the same.

Next year I hope to pair this hybrid back to a Fox snake to see what 75% fox babies will look like.

Natrix


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Natrix said:


> Yep, I already looked at the lack of overlap in the ranges. Several thoughts I had was
> 1) (if the kisatchi is a primal developement) has the fox snake range changed in the distant past
> 2) (If the Kisatchi is a modern developement) did some one let some fox snakes go in the Kisatchi area.
> 3) Is this something that is totally man made and some were released into the wild to validate the new animal as a species and make it more desirable?
> ...


It's very surprising how alike they are.

Natrix (Fox rat snake/Red rat snake)hybrids. 
Hatchling and Adult. 









Kisatchie rat snake.
Hatchling and adult.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

gazz said:


> It's very surprising how alike they are.
> 
> Natrix (Fox rat snake/Red rat snake)hybrids.
> Hatchling and Adult.
> ...


It is very interesting the way even the babies match up. 
Here's an attempt at the promised head shot done today. 
The camera (it's new and I'm learning) focussed on the plant behind and I didn't spot it until I down loaded the pic tonight but it gives a reasonable idea of what the head looks like. 










Natrix


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## Rachael Grace (May 4, 2009)

oo havnt visited this thread in a while so thought I would update you all. We today brought home our new slowinski corn girl as our other one had probed as a boy. So now we sit back a few years and fingers crossed we should find out if they are both pure.:2thumb:

I did find that the new one is a lot lighter than our male but I know he has darkened up over the last few months. The all important line through the eye to beyond the jawline is present so we will wait and see.

Love the thread so far much food for thought I will enjoy reading through it properly tomorrow when Im not so tired.


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