# guppy's



## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Allo

Anyone interested in swapping a few guppy fry or something? I dont mind them breeding since I ave plenty space for new ones for the forseeable future. I just dont want interbreeding to kick in badly.


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## madguppy (Jan 1, 2011)

you dont want interbreeding to kick in badly :lol2:
interbreeding guppy's is not a problem its a myth. 
you should be able to breed guppy's for many years with out any problems start with good quality guppy's breed with your best guppy's.
breeding from brother to sister as no effect on them what so ever.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

i'd like some new colours to play with too. Would rather do some swaps then go and buy new.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

madguppy said:


> you dont want interbreeding to kick in badly :lol2:
> interbreeding guppy's is not a problem its a myth.
> you should be able to breed guppy's for many years with out any problems start with good quality guppy's breed with your best guppy's.
> breeding from brother to sister as no effect on them what so ever.


Not strictly true. If you have a large tank with hundreds of the things then no real issue, but the average person has 20 or so. In this case the normal inbreeding problems start occurring within 4 or 5 generations. It's best to swap out some of your stock and replace with fresh blood yearly unless you have a decent amount or keep records.
The top show breeders keep their guppies in pairs to know exactly who is producing what and they end up with stunners like this -










So clearly doing something right!


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## madguppy (Jan 1, 2011)

Devi said:


> Not strictly true. If you have a large tank with hundreds of the things then no real issue, but the average person has 20 or so. In this case the normal inbreeding problems start occurring within 4 or 5 generations. It's best to swap out some of your stock and replace with fresh blood yearly unless you have a decent amount or keep records.
> The top show breeders keep their guppies in pairs to know exactly who is producing what and they end up with stunners like this -
> 
> image
> ...


 top show breeders do not replace with fresh blood yearly there is no reason. many fancy guppies can take many generations to produce. if top show breeders keep their guppies in pairs and produce good quality guppies then the average person that has 20 or so guppies can do the same.

What affects do you think inbreeding has on them ?


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

I'm not too sure in all honesty, I just relate it to giving health problems in long term. I remember someone last year having issues with a lot of deformed guppys and stuff, i'll try and find it but it was well over a year ago :S

As I said, it would be nice to have different colours to play with too  I dont understand the full ethics of the breeding process and genetics between guppies, I know they breed and breed fast, as i said i have got a lot of space for plenty of them.

If i can get some swaps for othercolours then great, if not i can just buy different colours lol.


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## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

I accidentally bred guppies a couple of years ago, and i'm not sure whether this is anything to do with inbreeding but a few of them came out with dips in their spines? Anyway after that, I started fresh and now I breed them purposely (no interbreeding) and love the colours I get!


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

could you post or PM me a few photo's? I'd love to see your colours as well as setups mate:


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## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

Was this to me Frase?


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

T'was 

Anyone else who deals in depth with guppys may also feel free to do so


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## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

Okay . I have more pictures of the mollies I breed but I will send you what I've got!


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## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

Okay I will have to upload them on here because I'm on my iPhone and it's not giving me the option via PM? 2 seconds!


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## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

PM'd you


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Guppy inbreeding causes an amplification of any traits of the primary parents, both good and bad. A diverse population gives you the ability to select for good mutations while weeding out bad. 
The spinal problem is common as has been mentioned, along with eye issues, shortened fins/tails, and a few others.
The biggest one in my opinion is vulnerability to disease, if a guppy becomes ill and all your other guppies are genetically identical then the disease will spread much more quickly than in a diverse population.
If you have a good understanding of genetics (as show breeders do) then some controlled inbreeding is possible, even beneficial, but you need to know your lines well and be able to weed out fish with invisible issues, not an easy task!


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Devi said:


> Guppy inbreeding causes an amplification of any traits of the primary parents, both good and bad. A diverse population gives you the ability to select for good mutations while weeding out bad.
> The spinal problem is common as has been mentioned, along with eye issues, shortened fins/tails, and a few others.
> The biggest one in my opinion is vulnerability to disease, if a guppy becomes ill and all your other guppies are genetically identical then the disease will spread much more quickly than in a diverse population.
> If you have a good understanding of genetics (as show breeders do) then some controlled inbreeding is possible, even beneficial, but you need to know your lines well and be able to weed out fish with invisible issues, not an easy task!


You do realise that Gary ( the mad guppy ) has won more fish shows / rosettes / cups etc for breeding fancy guppies / livebearers than the whole of the rfuk fish section put together several times over .....:whistling2:


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## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

Ha Gary.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

lionfish said:


> You do realise that Gary ( the mad guppy ) has won more fish shows / rosettes / cups etc for breeding fancy guppies / livebearers than the whole of the rfuk fish section put together several times over .....:whistling2:


IF that is true, then he'd be competent enough in genetics to weed out faults in his lines. The average guppy breeder is not. So it's irresponsible to state that inbreeding produces healthy happy fish.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Devi has a point.


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## madguppy (Jan 1, 2011)

Devi said:


> IF that is true, then he'd be competent enough in genetics to weed out faults in his lines. The average guppy breeder is not. So it's irresponsible to state that inbreeding produces healthy happy fish.


 of course inbreeding produces healthy happy fish.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Devi said:


> IF that is true, then he'd be competent enough in genetics to weed out faults in his lines. The average guppy breeder is not. So it's irresponsible to state that inbreeding produces healthy happy fish.


That IS true , if you don't like it then tough s*** Are you a member of The B.L.A ? ( British Livebearer Association ) or Fish Arc ? or are active on the FBAS ( Federation of British Aquatic Societies ) show scene . There are many , many people who can vouch for him . he doesn't have to prove himself to some random keyboard warrior like you .


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

lionfish said:


> That IS true , if you don't like it then tough s*** Are you a member of The B.L.A ? ( British Livebearer Association ) or Fish Arc ? or are active on the FBAS ( Federation of British Aquatic Societies ) show scene . There are many , many people who can vouch for him . he doesn't have to prove himself to some random keyboard warrior like you .


I think if this dude is whatever you say he is then he's old enough to speak for himself.



madguppy said:


> of course inbreeding produces healthy happy fish.


How? Back yourself up with some science and it might make sense, but right now it doesn't.
Inbreeding is never good for a gene pool.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

@ Devi , just curious as to where you accumulated your vast knowledge on line breeding fancy guppies , when you aren't a member of any the organisations I mentioned and have never entered or won any fish shows ?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

lionfish said:


> @ Devi , just curious as to where you accumulated your vast knowledge on line breeding fancy guppies , when you aren't a member of any the organisations I mentioned and have never entered or won any fish shows ?


Who says I am not or haven't? Now why are you entering this discussion yet contributing nothing? Do you know anything about genetics? Or are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

I'm just sticking up for an old friend who I know in real life , a guy who you've slagged off . He has a fish house with 100 + tanks of absolutely STUNNING line bred livebearers . 

I've not seen you at any of the British shows or heard of you , nicely side stepped my question didn't you , so I'll ask again - How many fish shows have you entered or won ?


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## Sutters (Oct 31, 2009)

Devi said:


> I think if this dude is whatever you say he is then he's old enough to speak for himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Having studied in these fields for many years i can also back up his comments regarding his inbreeding produces healthy fish...As for demanding scientific facts regarding inbreeding just goes to show how little you actually know regarding life on this planet and dont actaully realise that everyhting that lives and breaths and even those whom dont breath are all subject to inbreeding.

Heres a whacky notion for you...say (for easy maths) every human today comes from a long line of 1000 people.....where did all the people come from?.

Want some scary facts about our own genetics and inbreeding read a book by Spencer Wells called _The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey_..Its actually scary how inbred we humans actually are lol..


(Disclaimer i apeciate we all came from a lot more than 1000 people but wasnt sure how your maths skills where lol....Oh and i'm not for one minute agreeing with inbreeding but i am well aware it always happens....)


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Sutters said:


> Having studied in these fields for many years i can also back up his comments regarding his inbreeding produces healthy fish...As for demanding scientific facts regarding inbreeding just goes to show how little you actually know regarding life on this planet and dont actaully realise that everyhting that lives and breaths and even those whom dont breath are all subject to inbreeding.
> 
> Heres a whacky notion for you...say (for easy maths) every human today comes from a long line of 1000 people.....where did all the people come from?.
> 
> ...


A starting population of 1000 people randomly bred is not inbreeding. Which is exactly what I said before. If you have hundreds of fish then you can randomly breed and not see problems, but the average fish keeper with say 20 fish, will see issues within 3 or 4 generations, which in guppies is about a year.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

lionfish said:


> I'm just sticking up for an old friend who I know in real life , a guy who you've slagged off . He has a fish house with 100 + tanks of absolutely STUNNING line bred livebearers .
> 
> I've not seen you at any of the British shows or heard of you , nicely side stepped my question didn't you , so I'll ask again - How many fish shows have you entered or won ?


And you know my real name how? or for that matter what I look like? What a random statement. I have not 'slagged off' your friend, I have disagreed with him. I have no idea why that is a problem to you but this is a forum, not a playground.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Devi said:


> And you know my real name how? or for that matter what I look like? What a random statement. I have not 'slagged off' your friend, I have disagreed with him. I have no idea why that is a problem to you but this is a forum, not a playground.


You still haven't answered the question have you ? How many show have you attended or won ? If you were a member of The B.L.A , Fish Arc or FBAS you would know both Gary and me - that's how I know ! 

With a name like Devi and coming from Birmingham it's a fair bet you're asian ....there are only two asian guys on the show scene one is a professional photographer for a fishkeeping magazine , who I know very well , the other is a very camp gay guy dripping in gold jewlery - and you're neither of them !


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

lionfish said:


> With a name like Devi and coming from Birmingham it's a fair bet you're asian ....!


:lol2:


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

And you still haven't answered the question How many fish shows have you entered or won and what is your experience with line bred fancy guppies ?!


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## Sutters (Oct 31, 2009)

A starting population of 10 thousand humans who are now 6.91billion humans is very much a matter of inbreeding lol..


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Sutters said:


> A starting population of 10 thousand humans who are now 6.91billion humans is very much a matter of inbreeding lol..


I think he knows' he lost the arguement , he won't answer my question despite my asking 3 or 4 times and has logged off .


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## madguppy (Jan 1, 2011)

Devi said:


> I think if this dude is whatever you say he is then he's old enough to speak for himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it cant be all that bad can it Look at all of the beautiful guppys that are around all through inbreeding. good for the a gene pool or not i don't have any problems with inbreeding i have kept some Livebearers for over 15 years with out adding fresh blood and not onece have i had any sick or deformatys i also have some that is beleved to be inbred for almost 30 years.


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## madguppy (Jan 1, 2011)

Devi said:


> I think if this dude is whatever you say he is then he's old enough to speak for himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it cant be all that bad can it Look at all of the beautiful guppys that are around all through inbreeding. good for the a gene pool or not i don't have any problems with inbreeding i have kept some Livebearers for over 15 years with out adding fresh blood and not onece have i had any sick or deformatys i also have some that is beleved to be inbred for almost 30 years.


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

Sutters said:


> A starting population of 10 thousand humans who are now 6.91billion humans is very much a matter of inbreeding lol..


Not really an arguement for inbreeding, have you seen some of the **** ups walking this earth?

why are you guys fighting pointlessly. in fairness if madguppy is as established as you say (not saying he isnt but i dont know him as i am not serius enough as of yet to get involved in the names and faces scene,) then I am sure he is a big enough chap to back his own, it doesnt need others pointlessly trying to stir. A simple request for anyone interested in a trade, the first like of MGs response was a bit cocky but i have still taken on board wut hes said, rather than giving it the whole lol coimment, he could have easily given me a viable explanation as to why i should not be thinking of it the way i was. Either way i still taken on board wut was said,but still see trading a viable option as if someone has new colours i;d like to try this out with it would be nice to trade so noone is at a loss.

Peace out homies, back to my shelled section for a chill out.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Sutters said:


> A starting population of 10 thousand humans who are now 6.91billion humans is very much a matter of inbreeding lol..


Inbreeding on a much bigger scale perhaps, but nothing compared to the small amount of fish in your average tank. Inbreeding in general use describes matings between close relatives, like cousins etc.
This is an interesting article on inbreeding in the Amish population - Inbreeding and Dwarfism
It describes the emergence of recessive traits in an isolated population.


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## clownbarb1 (Jul 11, 2010)

i got some babies if u want them


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