# naturalistic vivarium Help



## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

Hello RFUK Members,

Hello am new to Naturalistic viviarium but wanting to create one with 3 different types of reptile water land and tree. am also wanting to create a rainforest effect with real plants but not noing what animals and plants will work together water i thought. / tortoises but tell me what you think

1. Water - tortoises
2. ?????????????????
3. ?????????????????


Viv size 5ft width 3ft depth 4ft height.


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## badboiboom (Oct 22, 2007)

tortoises don't swim too well...

also it isn't a good idea to mix species at all!
look through the forum's archives for info on this topic


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

well people do it and its is possible its like saying they cant do that in the wild.


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## badboiboom (Oct 22, 2007)

well if you are going to mix species do it with the animals that you know definetely live in the same place and habitat in the wild.
im sure many people will be along soon to show you the light....


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## Sambee (Jul 4, 2008)

Read through this..lots of good advice!

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/35374-mixing-species-please-read.html


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## htd100 (Feb 26, 2006)

Hi.

With the dimentions you give there is a possability you could co habitate but with the information you have presented I wouldent either you ment turtle instead of totoise, also the argument they do in the wild holds no water.

Its a realy cool idea but in realty it could pose alot of problems.Philippe de vosjoli describes it as systems herpetoculture - the ultimate challange.
I think the key is by doing it very slowly, step by step with back up accomadation incase of problems. Do you think that you have the skills to identfy any potental problems?

I think the common one is Green anoles , Whites tree frogs and House geckos .Ive been playing around with the idea selecting animals that occupy different niches and activity periods such as aquatic/terrestrial/aboreal or diurnal/ nocturnal, but still there are sooo many other conciderations.Also strictly one male per enclosure and as for 
species conflicts you are realy playing God with lives of the animals in the terrium.

I think the best naturalistic terrria are ones that have been alowed to establish for a long time, so maybe you could start now and not realy set yourself any limits to finish, just enjoy watching things develop. Bio sphere 3 concluded that you cant have a a tottaly closed system but as close as possable is a real challange. I think it would be really intresting to use micro organisms aswell and see how many different levels you can sucessfully manage it at before you evern concider mixing species of verabrates.

I kept Green anoles, small geckos, jeweled lizards all in 24 inch aquarium back when picking a lizard was like picking fish for an aquarium. The only thing that I recolect was that all the enhabitants died within the space of 2 years except for a fat happy anole which lived on for many years after.The only thing I learned was a "happy" reptile is the one that ocuppys the best spot with abundance of food with the least amount conflict and competition. Sorta like "survival of the fittest" 
Im very curious about the effect of a controled introduction of a predator has on the behaviour of a givern species in captivity. Im wondering it this might evern up the balance within the viv.

If its in the best intrest of the animal then co habitation is not an option unless you realy know what you are doing. Its such a multi dimentional subject that IMO realy depends on the faith you have in yourself as to be able to make the right dessisions.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

*hi*

Hello well ive seen really conplex ones and they were done my people who didnt no what they were doing. this is what i was going to plan on doing

anoles house geckos frogs and torts for water and so forth. i want real plants but no one will help me out. they just want to put me down on here.


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

Cos mixing species is bad 99% of the time, and tortoises are desert and scrubland animals!. But any household plant will grow in a viv and look alright just gotta keep an eye on it.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

why cant you mix animals that live together in the wild.


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

because they dont live in close quarters constantly... and even animals that co-exist in the wild will still scrapp from time to time if they get too close, so unless you're keeping a cape buffalo and an oxpecker its not fair on the involved animals.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

all i wanted to no is what animals go together
not dont do this and dont do that half of the people who say dont failed themselfs


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

RoyalPython89 said:


> all i wanted to no is what animals go together
> not dont do this and dont do that half of the people who say dont failed themselfs


why dont you read up on it, what comes from where together....

you wouldnt put a tokay with a lep gex would you.


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm just saying where posible its not a good idea... i ahvent and wont try it myself as i eont try something that could end an animals life or severly injure it like that.

But reptileswise not alot goes together...some amphibians do, but if i remember rightly bearded dragons are alright together, as are leopard geckos but im not sure about mixing.. you'll have to ask someone whos done it.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

no but there isnt alot on this topic on the web thats why i come here i was told this place was ok with a alot of up there own arse people on here.


i no dart frogs anoles house geckos water dragons and salamanders go together i just wanted to add a tort or a tert to the hole mix.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

RoyalPython89 said:


> no but there isnt alot on this topic on the web thats why i come here i was told this place was ok with a alot of up there own arse people on here.
> 
> 
> i no dart frogs anoles house geckos water dragons and salamanders go together i just wanted to add a tort or a tert to the hole mix.


well i have kept mixed specie together, but being accused of up my own arse...i will give my advice to people who will listen.

What people have said is correct, its not easy to do, esp in a small viv...and your asking wayward things without knowing about the care of the animals in the 1st place. i know lots of things about many animals, kept alone and all conditions, and i know what i can and cant mix...but i know about the animals in the 1st place
and i would mix these like you said
dart frogs anoles house geckos water dragons and salamanders


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

no i didnt say u was up your own arse its what i was told by people who used to come here saying people on here are like that.


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## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

It's a heated discussion... should enjoy it.


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

You have to remember coming on here and asking a question is not like typing it into a search engine, 

the people on this forum are more then likely to have the animals , you intend to mix together, therefore are bound to be abit baised and emotionally involved, and because it is a very debateable subject you will get people who get easily angered, personal, some will be helpful and others will tell it to you as it is and say exactly what they think about it wether you want to hear it or not, you just have to remember that before you start saying the wrong things and slating people (im not saying you are btw) otherwise you will get no help at all.

and often with this subject people will warn you of the hazards as it rarely works out, i have in the past mixed to species together and it resulted in a fatality. 

Im not saying you should be put off by what you hear on this forum, just do your research, and don't make the mistake many people make by choosing animals from the same areas, and same requirements etc, even though you need all these to make it work, you also need to take into consideration, diet and COLOUR this is almost never looked at or spoke about, if u get species where the different sexes have different colours (males brightly coloured etc) and mix them with another species where the males are brightly coloured and they are similar size etc i can guarantee it will result in some form of harm to the males, as these colours are used for fighting attracting females etc and certain colours to different lizards mean different things, also behaviour needs to be looked at aswell, do they dig, sleep in trees? are the awake in the day or night? if u have 1 lizard species awak in the day and 1 awake in the night, they will disturb and wake each other up stressing them out. 

its a big subject that requires tonnes of research and looking into before you should consider it, some people do just chuck some stuff in and it works, that is pure luck in my opinion unless u have looked into everything i wouldn't bother doing it.

as for plants, Ferns, Umbrella Plant, and Yuccas are all safe and good to use in a natural viv : victory:


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## CharlieT247 (Jul 27, 2008)

Hi,

As an alternative suggestion, could you not have a stack of three tanks/vivs and set them up to simulate one large habitat ie. bottom tank to hold turtles/terrapins for example - with water and land area, middle tank to hold a ground-dwelling species such as lizards and the top one to hold a tree-dwelling species such as a GTP? You could set up the top two so that branches are aligned to look like they are passing through into each other - and that way you can set up each habitat according to what each species requires, you wont be risking premature death through fighting/cannibalism/stress etc and it should still look really smart as though they are one and the same. :2thumb: It would mean having only three different species (one species per tank), but I thought it sounded like a good compromise offering each reptile a safer quality of life - just a thought : victory: Obviously you would still have to look at what three species live in the same area in the wild to make it more realistic


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

You dont seem to know the basic care of animals,let alone caing for a mix. This will require micro management of a very small habitat, which is extremely difficult. Getting temp/humidity right in a viv for one animal is hard enough.

Tortoises do not swim, and they need high temps and lower humidity. This will rule out most amphibians. Turtles that do swim are voracious carnivores and will attack/eat anything they decide is food. Again this rules out any frogs or salamanders that may enter the water.

Dartfrogs do not go with anything! they are too small and easily stressed, and drown in any great depth of water, god knows who mixes them with water dragons! They also need lower temps and higher humidity than most reptiles. 
Larger frogs like whites will probably try to eat anoles or geckos. 
Other issues people have already addressed. Just get a few vivs and set themup to cater for each species, thats what most of us do and you will enjoy it alot more.


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## DaveyB (Sep 22, 2008)

RoyalPython89 said:


> why cant you mix animals that live together in the wild.


Animals don't live together in the wild. Most people tend not to even keep the same species of snakes together because it can cause problems. Most reptiles do not seek out each others company and in the wild if they came across each other will either fight or try and get away. Many come together to breed and that's it (it varies in each species and I do not know every reptile out there). You have asked the question but seem to only want one answer which is to give you a list of reptiles/amphibians which will mix together. It's like you wanting us to tell you 2 + 2 = 5 when it's not.

Perhaps get in contact with your local zoo and see if they cohabit any herps together and see what they have. I don't remember any at the last zoo I went to but you never know, you may get the answer you're looking for.


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## htd100 (Feb 26, 2006)

Sorry I shouldent have mentioned Whites tree frogs, I ment sutable tree frog sp,also I honestly to this day dont know for sure what some of the speces I kept together were. Was abit tired when I typed. 

Staperly water gardens have a tropical house and used to have an amazing Rainforest disply with Green Anoles cohabitating with I think green tree frogs and a large pond below. It was massive at a guess it went above head height and was at least 6ft. It was very impressive but I kept thinking what would happen if an Anole fell into the water.

From all the books Ive read cohabitating isent recommended but their is ussualy a few species which could be concidered if the conditions overlaped. Like stated early seperate vivs close together would be better for the animals.From listening to sombodys experances at cohabitation they said that multiple basking spots is a must and that visual and physical barrers are benaficial.

A proper naturalistic viv takes alot of effort and knolage for it to be succesful and is an ongoing learning process.Forfilling the requirments of animals and plants together is not easy and you can be left with a mess at the end. I tend to mix live plants and put artifical plants where I know they will get the heavest use, like under the basking spot.

One last thing I know very little about Turles/Toitoses so any recomendations with planting must be cross referenced.


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## htd100 (Feb 26, 2006)

Have a look at www.terracom.tk , if this link doesnt come up just type terracom.tk .Theres loads of amazing naturalistic displays which should give you an idea in relation to planting layouts although as to sutability of what you can put in is questionable.


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## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

I think your best bet my friend is to chill out, take the 'I want' attitude out of your mind and re-read some of these posts with a clear head. Theres some good advice here, you just need to filter it out between some of the anger in the posts.

Basically the reason why your finding no information, is because there is no perfect formula. There aren't many animals that 'go together' in the manner that your expecting. Noone has posted guides that say 'if you do this and that, and mix this with them, itll work' because noone can guarantue it. Someone might have luck with a setup, post a guide, and the next reply is some angry poster who just spent £500+ on the same setup, just to find every animal died within a week. Noone wants to risk giving out bad advice, as they would more than likely feel guilty if it didnt work.

As for your setup, noone expects an amateur hobbyist to be all knowing, but your questioning screams 'I shouldnt be doing this', but: 

When you personally know completely the husbandry of each animal you want to cohabit.

When you know characteristic traits of the animals involved (when they are content, stressed or unwell).

When you can confidently identify a way of including a 'niche' microenviroment that will closely match the needs of each animal WITHIN your viv. This in itself requires alot more room than you would probably believe.

When you have the time and resources dedicated to make the step by step arrangements to bring it together, accomodate animals of it doesnt work, and pay vet bills just in case.

Then, possibly, you should start looking into this. Basically you should already know what animals should survive in the enviroment you want to recreate. You should know which of those animals are most likely to leave each other alone. 

At a push, your questions should be more along the lines of 'I was considering mixing a x with a y. Ive considered <all your thoughts here>, but wants to see if anyone else has had experience with it'.

If you go for it, best of luck to you, but dont expect people to be handing out information such as 'what mixes together' and potentially sending animals to their doom. Do the research yourself, keep each animal on their own, study them, and then use this forum to bounce ideas off people.

Just take your time with it.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

to be fair this post hasnt got as heated as i assumed it would.

Ok first think u need to know s this is a very heated topic and most people havent said u cant do this just be careful. 
ok lets start again: 

mixing is something that require care, attention and a good knowledge of the species and there responses to illness stress and the like. it require careful planning, the correct knowledge, quaratine proccedures and a good pinch of luck, that being said its not impossible.

you asked why species from different geological ranges shouldnt be mixed. there are several reasons one is fighting and stress, these animals dont come into contact in the wild and this can spark aggression or stress related behavior. most the other issues related to bacteria,parasite,disease or toxin are also a major issue since a species that has become imune to a disease bacteria etc from one area mixes with a species that isnt the bacteria could cause a possibly fatal illness same for disease parasites etc, toxins are slightly different as only species that have come into contact with the toxic species for many generation would have built up any kind of imunity.

first of all i assume u mean turtle rather than tortoise for the water area. turltles get large most "small" species get 8-12 inches and require alot of room (10 gallons per inch), they are also big hunters and will eat anything they see as food. because of this i would suggest u rethink about mixing turtles with any amphibain or reptile due to the risk of injury or death.

a commonly mixed vivarium is this

green anoles with american green and/or american grey treefrog. 
this is one of the more common mixes. these animals come from the same geological range and interact in the wild. neither the frogs or anoles are big swimmers so its recommended u dont have deep water but a small water area with fish wouldnt be such an issue as long at there is an easy way out of the water.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

ive taken the advice and am going to have 2 5ft by 2ft high vivs and one with my mississippi map turtles and another viv depending on what you think cause i was going to have my mississippi map turtles with anoles and some frogs that should be fine shouldnt it ?

if i was going to have them in one viv this is what i would use just tell me if am wrong and i like the angry comments cause i no you have these as pets and i understand you might dislike my idea i have snakes and i would if someone said they was going to mix them with out species

anoles frogs mississippi map turtles in one viv tell me what you think


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## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

RoyalPython89 said:


> ive taken the advice and am going to have 2 5ft by 2ft high vivs and one with my mississippi map turtles and another viv depending on what you think cause i was going to have my mississippi map turtles with anoles and some frogs that should be fine shouldnt it ?
> 
> if i was going to have them in one viv this is what i would use just tell me if am wrong and i like the angry comments cause i no you have these as pets and i understand you might dislike my idea i have snakes and i would if someone said they was going to mix them with out species
> 
> anoles frogs mississippi map turtles in one viv tell me what you think


Not as crazy a reply as I was first expecting, without sounding rude .

Erm I can see you've put some thought into that one. Green anoles and green tree frogs have been kept together successfully, and the map turtles also seem to have similiar care requirements, in regards to ambient air temperature and basking areas.

However, you would still have to make sure the viv had different temperature ranges to keep each happy. 

Also as far as Im aware the green tree frog and the anole arent brilliant swimmers, and the map turtle requires deep water in which to dive in.

You would need to make sure there was enough 'good' basking spots and room for them to wander around without disturbing each other.

Apart from that, I'll have to leave you with people who are more in the know. There 'may' be risks of infections and illness that I am unaware of, though I cant see it. They all seem fairly peaceful and calm creatures. I think your only real major concerns is going to be space, plenty of hiding places and the deep water.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

the deep water is my issue aswell how deep do i put it 6 - 10inches ive been told 10 inches will be fine and i was going to have trees everweres plants gideing places and stones in the water so they can get out if they get stuck / in trouble but am going to take it 1 step at a time am not going to rush into this at all i understand with what other people say on here and i respect that and i understand the help you've all given me i will grow the plants first and then intrerduce each species one at a time not all in one go.


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## RoyalPython89 (Jul 15, 2008)

the help i need now is what tropical plants can be used what not to use and what to use i need website links for plants and so forth plants for warm water


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

i still think turtles and frogs is a bad move as map turltes natural diet inculdes frogs, one goes into the water i can see it being eaten.


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## DannyCRS (Jul 8, 2008)

Bad idea scrap the turtles if your doing this due to the fact that its going to want to eat the frogs. If you are determined to mix species then try something that has been proven so that you can have a higher chance of survival in all animals, you would need more than a 5x2x2 as it would need a swimming pool for the turtles if you decide on them I would build a 8' long x 2' deep x 4-6' high preferably the 6' high option so that you ave loads of room. I think keeping them in a 5x2x2 would result in a few definate fatality's I do not keep any of these but know that in a short amount of room mixing the same species cancause trouble so mixing different species would be even more difficult. 

Please listen to everyone's constructive advice on this thread as we are only trying to help you but if you are determined not to listen then there was no point in starting the thread.


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

You can keep the anoles and whites tree frogs in one I guess but NO turtles. They will injure or kill your frogs and maybe your anoles. Tree frogs like to soak in water and the turtles will go for them. You really didnt listen to anyadvise like you said as you still have the same list, only now you know the species you want to mix. Turtles also make ALOT of mess. You will have problems keeping the water clean in a naturalistic viv unless you plumb in a external filter. The pollution will kill the frogs as well.
Please just understand that turtles do not mix, I know I have 2!!


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## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

Javeo said:


> You can keep the anoles and whites tree frogs in one I guess but NO turtles. They will injure or kill your frogs and maybe your anoles. Tree frogs like to soak in water and the turtles will go for them. You really didnt listen to anyadvise like you said as you still have the same list, only now you know the species you want to mix. Turtles also make ALOT of mess. You will have problems keeping the water clean in a naturalistic viv unless you plumb in a external filter. The pollution will kill the frogs as well.
> Please just understand that turtles do not mix, I know I have 2!!


Ah fair enough, people more in the know have voiced a pretty big concern. Im sure you wouldnt want to risk the deaths of the other species.

If your insistent on a pool of water, have you considered a type of hardy tropical fish? Like white cloud minnows? Or something similiar, Im sure the nice people in the Aquatic section would be more helpful with narrowing down a species. Of course you'd need to make sure the water is filtered, heated etc, but far less liekly to much on your frogs .


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