# interesting question..



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

sadly i dont hold a DWA licence due to living in a teeny flat, but it is definately something on my 'far-in-the-future-when-finished-degree-and-have-big-house' list!

just wondered how many people have actually been bitten/stung by a venomous species - if so, what the :censor: did you do at this point!?

:lol2:


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

I'm not sure you'll have many people tell you they've been bitten on a public forum such as this.

The correct answer to your second question is; carry out pre-planned envenomation procedures.


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## POAGeckos (Jul 11, 2008)

Well, I personally havent gotten bitten by the snakes, but a few employees have, and we have a fridge of anti-venom in the room with the snakes. I am the one with more the wolves, cougars, and bears. Havent gotten attacked by them though.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

hmm to be honest in my opinion people shouldn't be embarrassed to say if they have had experience with venomous bites/stings - the best keeper in the world cannot account for the freak accident. As youve all answered my question which was really me wondering if you kept the relevant first aid in your building and do people get trained to administer the relevant anti-venom injections (as it is my understanding these are either under skin jabs or intravenous and this would require a great deal of training) or do you simply stock anafalactic shock pens in order to keep you going till you get to a hospital?! lol!


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## Chriseybear (Jun 6, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> hmm to be honest in my opinion people shouldn't be embarrassed to say if they have had experience with venomous bites/stings - the best keeper in the world cannot account for the freak accident. As youve all answered my question which was really me wondering if you kept the relevant first aid in your building and do people get trained to administer the relevant anti-venom injections (as it is my understanding these are either under skin jabs or intravenous and this would require a great deal of training) or do you simply stock anafalactic shock pens in order to keep you going till you get to a hospital?! lol!


 
I Wouldnt say its so much about being embarassed by a bite/attack. It's more the spot light about it. Telling people, too many people you dont know how things could get about, last thing anybody wants is the Council investigating them and possibly seizing their animal/s by revoking their license. I'm sure many of them are just waiting for a slip up to get a Dangerous animal out of their district.


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> hmm to be honest in my opinion people shouldn't be embarrassed to say if they have had experience with venomous bites/stings - the best keeper in the world cannot account for the freak accident. As youve all answered my question which was really me wondering if you kept the relevant first aid in your building and do people get trained to administer the relevant anti-venom injections (as it is my understanding these are either under skin jabs or intravenous and this would require a great deal of training) or do you simply stock anafalactic shock pens in order to keep you going till you get to a hospital?! lol!


You dont have a "freak accident" whilst handling venomous snakes. Keepers are bit through complacency,incompetence and stupidity..no excuses.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

southwest vipers said:


> You dont have a "freak accident" whilst handling venomous snakes. Keepers are bit through complacency,incompetence and stupidity..no excuses.


 
of course a freak accident could happen. You can't control every single possibility. You can do your best to minimise 99.9999999% of the chance that something could go wrong.

Let's say you have a window in your hots room. It's all secured etc. While handling a hot, by the book not a single foot out of line etc, but something causes a brief glint of sunshine to make you blink. Bam snake could bite you in that very slight lapse. Highly unlikely but it COULD happen. No ones fault just a very very bad bit of luck.


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

A very hypothetical answer, but that senario would be listed under"complacency".


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

southwest vipers said:


> You dont have a "freak accident" whilst handling venomous snakes. Keepers are bit through complacency,incompetence and stupidity..no excuses.


Hi all,

Southwest vipers whats it like to be perfect, you are so good you dare not give any info about yourself.

What do you keep, vipers is a clue and how long you have been keeping.

Any accident in life is one of the three things you say, complacency, incompetence, or stupidity but they still happen.

This sort of arrogance gets people nowhere.

slither61:snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

God bless Reptile Forums. *shakes head* 

:lol2:


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## Nick83 (Aug 10, 2008)

ljkenny said:


> God bless Reptile Forums. *shakes head*
> 
> :lol2:



shouldnt that be *snakes head* ?

Like what I did there lol :]


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

southwest vipers said:


> A very hypothetical answer, but that senario would be listed under"complacency".


 
complacency being that you are self-satisfied. As in nearly arrogant in you ability?


Question, who can control the sun? I'm certain you can't. How is being put of by a glint of sunlight complacency? Like a lot of hots keepers say, it only takes a split second to get bit. So surely that means that split second could fall in that exact time your eyes flicker towards the sun light.

A freak ACCIDENT. Yeah most accidents have a cause because of a mistake. Sometimes they are just accidents, no ones fault. S**t happens.


Let's do a non reptile related hypothetical idea. You're driving down a straight, flat country road through some trees. No adverse road conditions, you are 100% concentrated, doing say 40mph a perfectly reasonable speed. What happens if a tree falls over as you drive pass and crushes your car with you inside.

whose stupidity, complacency or incompetance caused that? Or was it an accident?

Like slither69 asked, what's it like being perfect?


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

slither61 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Southwest vipers whats it like to be perfect, you are so good you dare not give any info about yourself.
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry for commenting on this forum, I thought it was supposed to be for VENOMOUS keepers and interested parties. No one apart from me so far on this thread has any venomous snakes. If you had any venomous snakes you would be able to give valid comments. I think that you are putting your comments in the wrong section of this website. There are other places for non- venomous reptiles and goldfish etc.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

I have been bitten five times.
Complacency and stupidity ranks with the reasons why.

Unfortunately southwest vipers is correct.

my puff adder bite was due to "bulletproof" syndrome
rinkhals bites were both complacency
copperhead bite was poor grip
monocled cobra bite was due to haste


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

I've been keeping venomous for a little over two years and have not had a single incident where I have been bitten by any of my snakes but no, I do not consider myself to be an expert. I keep true vipers and pit-vipers and have had numerous different species at different ages and sizes, at the moment my collection stands at eight individuals.
Each different species requires a slightly different approach to work with then the last and I have a seperate routine for each of them.
Some species are more aggressive, defensive and are more eager or willing to strike than others. I use snake hooks that keep me well out of the way of any potential strike range and always secure any viper I'm working with in an empty tub untill it's ready to go back in it's own viv. I'm sure many other venomous keepers have similar routines because too be fair their really is only one way to deal with these animals in a captive situation and thats very carefully.
As long as we stick to our established and practiced routines and concentrate on what we're doing we should never have a problem. If you understand viper behaviour you know that it's a simple task to stay out of the strike range to avoid a bite.
Complacency is really the only way an accident could accur because you could become too relaxed working with a venomous snake and allow it to get too close too you. And if we do get bitten we have only ourselves to blame.

Saying that I do have too remove my 3' Puff Adder fom her viv tonite so I shall be extra careful for any stray shards of light :whistling2:
Thanks for the tip.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

trueviper said:


> I've been keeping venomous for a little over two years and have not had a single incident where I have been bitten by any of my snakes but no, I do not consider myself to be an expert. I keep true vipers and pit-vipers and have had numerous different species at different ages and sizes, at the moment my collection stands at eight individuals.
> Each different species requires a slightly different approach to work with then the last and I have a seperate routine for each of them.
> Some species are more aggressive, defensive and are more eager or willing to strike than others. I use snake hooks that keep me well out of the way of any potential strike range and always secure any viper I'm working with in an empty tub untill it's ready to go back in it's own viv. I'm sure many other venomous keepers have similar routines because too be fair their really is only one way to deal with these animals in a captive situation and thats very carefully.
> As long as we stick to our established and practiced routines and concentrate on what we're doing we should never have a problem. If you understand viper behaviour you know that it's a simple task to stay out of the strike range to avoid a bite.
> ...


yeah I know it's a stupid point but im just saying freak accidents CAN happen. The majority of mistakes are due to an issue from the keeper, arrogance, inexperience etc. But something can happen outside of your control which would be a freak accident


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

mad martin said:


> I have been bitten five times.
> Complacency and stupidity ranks with the reasons why.
> my puff adder bite was due to "bulletproof" syndrome
> copperhead bite was poor grip


What was that you said? You could easily learn how to hook vipers with a rope?


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

Ive never been bitten by a venomous snake but I have this to say.

You dont know what your doing, until youve made mistakes.


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

Joe1507 said:


> Ive never been bitten by a venomous snake but I have this to say.
> 
> You dont know what your doing, until youve made mistakes.


Nonsence!

If you have a half decent mentor, s/he should teach you all about the possible dangers and how to best avoid/overcome them.

A mistake in this game IS the difference between life and death!


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

I know but still, Im not reccomending that you get biut by a snake, its the last thing u want!
But all i'm saying is that for someone to be a "expert" i gess is the best to say, They have to experiance all aspects of it.

If that make sense I do not know, Lol...


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

I can think of less painful/fatal ways to become good at what you do.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Surely, if you don't believe accidents can happen, that it is all down to your concentration / skill / experience - doesn't that just lead to arrogance, which in itself, will eventually lead to complacency?

I think that it is important to be aware that an accident can happen to anyone, no matter how skilled, in order to have the correct protocol in place, and to keep a good reality check and realisation of the potential of these animals.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

every bite report I have ever read the person admits a level of complacency or something they did that they knew they shouldnt of done, complacency becoming an accident has a fine line between it.


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## netwoir (Feb 1, 2008)

all i know is your local hospital must be advised of the animals you'll be keeping so they can aquire the necessary anti venin etc. that would be in conjunction with the dwa inspection and council licencing stuff at the time.
in southern africa now (found out last yr when i was there) they dont use anti venin anymore - they let the person pass out and then attempt to bring them back to life with defribulators etc. a tad risky i feel but that's that


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, I will state I do not and have not kept any medically significant venomous species in captivity. 

However, I have been bitten by a venomous species - almost certainly a prairie rattler - while hiking in the mountains where I used to live. I either stepped on him or so close to him as to make no difference while putting my foot down in some loose brush. Stupidity on my part. What did I do? I didn't panic about it, and I walked the three miles back OUT of the canyon. This was long before cellphones (American for "mobile") were anything that a teenager could afford - if you were a doctor, you had a pager, but that's about it. And the canyon I was in, I wouldn't have fancied trying to get airlifted out of there anyway.

I was extremely lucky that it was a dry bite.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

netwoir said:


> all i know is your local hospital must be advised of the animals you'll be keeping so they can aquire the necessary anti venin etc. that would be in conjunction with the dwa inspection and council licencing stuff at the time.
> in southern africa now (found out last yr when i was there) they dont use anti venin anymore - they let the person pass out and then attempt to bring them back to life with defribulators etc. a tad risky i feel but that's that


*You are totally misinformed!!!!*

A & E's (larger ones) only stock limited amounts of _Vipera Berus _(adder) antivenins... FACT 

They do not hold antivenin for exotics and there is NO mechanism for the transfer of information on which species you keep in your collection from your DWAL issuing authority to any hospital..FACT

I believe there are only two holders for exotic antivenin in the UK

London and Liverpool!!!

When making an application for a DWAL one needs to seriously consider what will be the likely outcome if you are nailed and whether the chances of suitable treatment arriving from one of the stock holders are good!!

So you think that South Africa do not use treatment, prove it! Show me a link, quote etc because that sounds very odd to say the least....


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> So you think that South Africa do not use treatment, prove it! Show me a link, quote etc because that sounds very odd to say the least....


Speak to MadMartin about this. 

He is very well infomed with regards to evenomation procedures over there.

I do know that he, personally, will not take anti-venom, but I think it is still available as a treatment if one requires it.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Snake bite treatment in SA is limited at best. Doctors here just want to cut.
I personally, will only consider AV with a serious mamba bite. Other than that, most bites can be treated symptomatically.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> What was that you said? You could easily learn how to hook vipers with a rope?


Listen mate, you consider yourself no expert, yet you try and knock down things that work. Mike Perry has been teaching people how to work with vipers for years using a rope. If you have half a brain you may know who that is. Just because it doesn't seem feasible in your "expert" opinion, it doesn't mean it does not work. In all Mike's courses not one client has suffered a bite. He teaches you how to restrain Black Mambas on the same day you set your eyes on your first wild cobra.
While you may think its a real skill to hook a snake etc., it really isn't. A monkey can be taught how to do it in half an hour.

Now on my bites
I work with six hundred venomous snakes every day, not counting any callouts. While I may not handle all of them every day, at least half gets done. Which means that my time physically spent with my hands on a venomous reptile is far greater than what you will have for many years to come. My Copperhead head bite happened after forcefeeding 200 prior to that. I seriously doubt if you have ever seen 200 copperheads let alone pinned that many.
My puff adder bite was from putting an unrestrained animal on a shelf and not in a container. Not on a hook. 

You try and tell me that your one or two puffs are far different than any of the 30 I have caught this week?


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