# Live feeding Mice to Bullfrogs?



## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Are there many people on here feeding live rodents to their Bullfrogs?

As per the clip?

LiveLeak.com - Bull Frog Eats Mouse


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

no and there should not be, live feeding is ellegal in the uk!

plenty of good food sources are avaliable without having to do this, which is usually for the viewers sick pleasure any way rather than the good of the frog!


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## dayredfern (Jun 21, 2006)

live feeding is not illegal in the uk. there is a thread on live feeding laws somewhere........


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Dextersdad said:


> Are there many people on here feeding live rodents to their Bullfrogs?
> 
> As per the clip?
> 
> LiveLeak.com - Bull Frog Eats Mouse


The voiceover indicates that the person filming it was in the 'States. I doubt that very many people in the UK feed live rodents to amphibians at all.


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## danpug (Jul 4, 2007)

Needless cruelty :bash:


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

It's an American thing... They'll eat dead food just as well and is far more acceptable.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

found thread in snake section...

was news to me, always thought is was illegal and going by that thread it is a pretty vaguge law, as surley feeding a mouse to a frog is causing unnecassary suffering, making it illegal....

still there is no need for it with a frog, can get 5 different inverts in a pet store, not like there is lack of food....

most people only live feed to show of or to make a youtube vid..... sick, twisted and needless


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

knighty said:


> found thread in snake section...
> 
> was news to me, always thought is was illegal and going by that thread it is a pretty vaguge law, as surley feeding a mouse to a frog is causing unnecassary suffering, making it illegal....
> 
> ...


 
Or because youtube's an american site & it's pretty acceptable over there...


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

matty__=) said:


> Or because youtube's an american site & it's pretty acceptable over there...



so i owning a gun and shooting burgulars!

dosnt make it right just because yanks do it!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

knighty said:


> so i owning a gun and shooting burgulars!
> 
> dosnt make it right just because yanks do it!


no but it is right though, to an extent, people should be allowed to protect their propert with acceptable force and if that means facing a burgler who is also armed with a gun then so be it.

But thats not the point of the thread, live feeding is unnesesary and cruel, and although not illegal, you would be prosecuted if the RSPCA(ssholes) found out and unless you could prove it was needed you would probably get a conviction.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

knighty said:


> so i owning a gun and shooting burgulars!
> 
> dosnt make it right just because yanks do it!


 
Did I say it did?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

totaly agree with the burgular thing Siuk, was just 2 quick fire examples of things they do that we dont, maybe not the best to as id like to do both, but first things that came to me...

matty_=) i wasnt implying you did was just pointing out the fact that just because they do it and its accceptable there dosnt make it right over here. was not aimed at you personaly.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

> But thats not the point of the thread, live feeding is unnesesary and cruel, and although not illegal, you would be prosecuted if the RSPCA(ssholes) found out and unless you could prove it was needed you would probably get a conviction.


Not always. It was in fact the RSPCA who assured me that live feeding is NOT illegal, providing unnessecary suffering is not ckaused. In this example, though, I think they would, quite rightly, take a dim view, as would most keepers in the UK!


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## Rico (Jan 5, 2007)

I dont agree with live feeding for sport only when feeding an animal that wont take dead. But I do agree with the right to defend our homes.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

knighty said:


> totaly agree with the burgular thing Siuk, was just 2 quick fire examples of things they do that we dont, maybe not the best to as id like to do both, but first things that came to me...
> 
> matty_=) i wasnt implying you did was just pointing out the fact that just because they do it and its accceptable there dosnt make it right over here. was not aimed at you personaly.


 
Oh ok, sorry then. :blush:

I'll go & be moody & ill elsewhere.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

matty__=) said:


> Oh ok, sorry then. :blush:
> 
> I'll go & be moody & ill elsewhere.



:lol2: not just me having a bad day then:lol2:


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

knighty said:


> :lol2: not just me having a bad day then:lol2:


Nah, you're not alone mate, don't worry lol.


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## Cyberlizard (Apr 1, 2008)

I know I've posted on this before, but I don't think rodents are a natural food for amphibs anyway, even large frogs and toads. I think mammalian prey should be offered to amphibs (and to lizards and chelonians) sparingly if at all. I know there are possibly exceptions, but I think it's all too easy to get into the habit just because pinkies are convenient.

Even those humans that live off red meat all the time suffer for it eventually, and we're better adapted to it as mammalian omnivores.

Did I just have a rant?:blush:


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Cyberlizard said:


> I know I've posted on this before, but I don't think rodents are a natural food for amphibs anyway, even large frogs and toads. I think mammalian prey should be offered to amphibs (and to lizards and chelonians) sparingly if at all. I know there are possibly exceptions, but I think it's all too easy to get into the habit just because pinkies are convenient.
> 
> Even those humans that live off red meat all the time suffer for it eventually, and we're better adapted to it as mammalian omnivores.
> 
> Did I just have a rant?:blush:


i know some of the larger frogs and toads will eat them in the wild, but dont think it is there main or preffered food source, as most frogs/toads eat inverts as there main diet....

frogs/toads hunt on movement so i think it is just a case of the rodent being in the wrong place at the wrong time! 

i know a horned frog will try to eat anything that moves infront of it, and kane toads are like dustbins....


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Live feeding to frogs shouldn't be done, theirs no need for them to have mice what so ever, so why feed them live? If you can stomach it with other animals i don't see why it shouldn't be done, though personally id feel too guilty and probably vomit. The reason behind this seemingly paradoxical statement of other animals not frogs is because many other animals are designed to take out things like mice, a snake or bosc makes pretty short work of them. Im willing to bet most if not all frogs would have problems killing them outright.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

This was a can of worms wasn't it?

I found the clip disturbing.

Death to BEAR!


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## danpug (Jul 4, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> Live feeding to frogs shouldn't be done, theirs no need for them to have mice what so ever, so why feed them live? If you can stomach it with other animals i don't see why it shouldn't be done, though personally id feel too guilty and probably vomit. The reason behind this seemingly paradoxical statement of other animals not frogs is because many other animals are designed to take out things like mice, a snake or bosc makes pretty short work of them. Im willing to bet most if not all frogs would have problems killing them outright.


Agree with you completely. A frog/toad isn't really designed to dispatch a mammal, as these clips prove.


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## Cyberlizard (Apr 1, 2008)

I think Ian14 is right, most if not all of us take a dim view of this!

I agree with Lucifus too - amphibs generally have a job dispatching food quickly, even efficient predators like Tiger Salamanders. Their jaws and dentition (where present) don't always mangle their invertebrate prey, I believe a lot of the time it is just swallowed.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

*Feeding rodents to amphibians*

I don't believe in feeding live rodents to amphibians, and the yanks who do it on you tube to a heavy metal soundtrack are ar**holes, however an amphibian (Cane Toad/American/african bullfrog for example) will feed on what is available in their own particular territory. And whatever the predominant prey there is available will be what makes up the larger part of their diet. I would not just feed one type of food to an amphibian, however I have had adult skinny specimins of large frogs and toads that were skinny and unhealthy when I got them which were just fed on insects, but became healthier and larger when I introduced defrosts to their diets. It's just common sense really.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> I don't believe in feeding live rodents to amphibians, and the yanks who do it on you tube to a heavy metal soundtrack are ar**holes, however an amphibian (Cane Toad/American/african bullfrog for example) will feed on what is available in their own particular territory. And whatever the predominant prey there is available will be what makes up the larger part of their diet. I would not just feed one type of food to an amphibian, however I have had adult skinny specimins of large frogs and toads that were skinny and unhealthy when I got them which were just fed on insects, but became healthier and larger when I introduced defrosts to their diets. It's just common sense really.


 From a purely nutritional point of view, piinkies are known to be high in fats, and cause lipid build-up in frogs, even causing blindness. Good enough reason not to use them, except for the occasional treat.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

I'll be devils advocate and say I'm not against live feeding rodents/chicks in the slightest. HOWEVER for phibs I wouldn't simply because their more fragile and have trouble dispatching a rodent. That mouse could tear at the frogs face/mouth as it's trying to swallow it whole.

If I were to feed live to a large phib(canetoad, bull frog etc) it would be a pinkie, but I doubt I would feed phibs rodents. Snakes and reps on the other hand, as long as it in the wild it's proven rodents/other lizards(vertebrates basically) make up a noticeable part of the diet, I wouldn't question live feeding, especially for snakes.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

My corn is fine on frozen, and my African bullfrog is fine on locusts etc. I really don't see the need for live rodents.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> My corn is fine on frozen, and my African bullfrog is fine on locusts etc. I really don't see the need for live rodents.


There is no need. Unless you have an animal that won't take frozen. In that instance, then it should be done.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

ipreferaflan said:


> There is no need. Unless you have an animal that won't take frozen. In that instance, then it should be done.


Can't argue that with some snakes- but there is ALWAYS an alternative with frogs.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

*Mice to Frogs*

What about adult defrosts to adult frogs?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> What about adult defrosts to adult frogs?


Why would you want or need to though?


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

*Mice to bullfrogs*

What's wrong with including defrost mice in a balenced diet? All the care sheets say that you can include them as part of a balenced diet. Why wouldn't you include something that was available?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> What's wrong with including defrost mice in a balenced diet? All the care sheets say that you can include them as part of a balenced diet. Why wouldn't you include something that was available?


Same reply as before, really: 1) It's not necessary, and 2) It's not actually good for them. So why do it? The care sheets include what they CAN eat, not what they SHOULD.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

*Mice to bullfrogs/cane toads*

Then we're not reading the same care sheets because the ones I'm reading all say you can include them.

What would you feed yours over a one month period?


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Uromastyxman said:


> Then we're not reading the same care sheets because the ones I'm reading all say you can include them.
> 
> What would you feed yours over a one month period?


I'd assume only insects.

In the wild I'd imagine other frogs are part of the diet, especially with things like canetoads, their own kind are probably rather tasty...:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> Then we're not reading the same care sheets because the ones I'm reading all say you can include them.
> 
> What would you feed yours over a one month period?


As I said, CAN is not the same as SHOULD. Mine does fine on locusts, large earthworms and morio beatles (he doesn't seem to like the grubs). Why would I feed him stuff that will make him overweight and maybe even make him go blind? I really don't understand your arguement.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

*Mice to bullfrogs/cane toads*

I have had my African Bullfrogs and cane toads since I purchased them in 1991. the books and caresheets I have read since that time have all stated that these animals in the wild will consume almost anything they can overpower and get into their mouths. They also say that too many rodents can make them fat, effect their kidney and liver functions and could kill them. However they also say that feeding them rodents in MODERATION, is fine. I feed mine a huge variety of insects and every other month I will give them an adult mouse defrost, which they seem to relish and has not effected their health in anyway. I would prefer to believe what I have read from a variety of sources and take into account my own experiences. I have also encountered many underweight frogs and toads, who are fed store bought insects in the hope that this will be efficient. I have trained my animals to eat food parcels from tongs so this delivery system can provide them with any food I prepare for them.

My argumant is MODERATION!!!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> I have had my African Bullfrogs and cane toads since I purchased them in 1991. the books and caresheets I have read since that time have all stated that these animals in the wild will consume almost anything they can overpower and get into their mouths. They also say that too many rodents can make them fat, effect their kidney and liver functions and could kill them. However they also say that feeding them rodents in MODERATION, is fine. I feed mine a huge variety of insects and every other month I will give them an adult mouse defrost, which they seem to relish and has not effected their health in anyway. I would prefer to believe what I have read from a variety of sources and take into account my own experiences. I have also encountered many underweight frogs and toads, who are fed store bought insects in the hope that this will be efficient. I have trained my animals to eat food parcels from tongs so this delivery system can provide them with any food I prepare for them.
> 
> My argumant is MODERATION!!!


If that is your arguement, I don't have much of a problem with it- although I would say that a proprtion of wild-caught food makes up for some of the deficiencies of 'store-bought'. If I misunderstood your earlier posts, which seemed to suggest that mice were the 'perfect' food, I apologise.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

I've always wondered this....

when they eat a vertebrate(obviously in the wild large toads will on occasion), are the bones broken down in the stomach acid or are they encased in something, pass through the intestines whole(without harming them) and passed out as bones covered in sludgy poo...:lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

From my experience with toads etc eating snails and anything else they can fit in their mouths: they digest some of it, and pass some of it. Either way, it doesn't do them any harm.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

*Reading posts carefully before commenting*



Ron Magpie said:


> If that is your arguement, I don't have much of a problem with it- although I would say that a proprtion of wild-caught food makes up for some of the deficiencies of 'store-bought'. If I misunderstood your earlier posts, which seemed to suggest that mice were the 'perfect' food, I apologise.


Well thank you very much for the apology, however I do find it hard to understand how you misinterpreted my posts, when in them I had said: "I would not just feed one type of food to an amphibian" and "what's wrong with feeding defrosts as part of a balanced diet?" I think that it would be useful to read posts carefully before commenting on them, particularly if you are going to oppose or speak negatively about the way a person maintains their animals. I have no issue with people expressing their opinions, however I do take issue with peiple who are quick to attack, but slow to do their research, and I wonder what their motives are.

I would also direct you to the new February issue of Practical Reptile Keeping, which has an article on Cane Toads on page 57 which supports my comments on the beneficial feeding of defrosts in Moderation. This is pretty up to date and is similar to research I was reading 20 years ago, which is also very similar to the caresheets of African and American bullfrogs.

Perhaps it would be useful for yoy to read it.

Regards

Andy


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Well, I shall, when I get this month's issue. Having kept cane toads for years, I will be very interested in it- although I thought last month's installment was a little 'light'. My issue with feeding mice was twofold: 1) I think that feeding live ones is unnecessary and 2) OVER-feeding causes dietary problems. In what you have said about your own husbandry, you have answered both issues- so as far as I am concerned, we have no problem. You seem to feel differently, however.


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