# CITES A10's



## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

The Requirement for CITES A10 numbers on advertisements is NOT being implemented until Guidance is issued by APHA/DEFRA despite what anybody says - those contending otherwise might want to check with Elain Kendall head of CITES DEFRA Policy (Bristol) who will tell you the same - there is a difference between a law being passed (as it was in October) and implementation/enforcement which is up to the owning Department/Ministry to decide and the latter have stated to all the organisations affiliated to Sustainable Users Network that a delay in implementation/enforcement applies to this requirement - also check with OATA who are well aware of this fact but don't disseminate incorrect information.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

aardvark28 said:


> The Requirement for CITES A10 numbers on advertisements is NOT being implemented until Guidance is issued by APHA/DEFRA despite what anybody says - those contending otherwise might want to check with Elain Kendall head of CITES DEFRA Policy (Bristol) who will tell you the same - there is a difference between a law being passed (as it was in October) and implementation/enforcement which is up to the owning Department/Ministry to decide and the latter have stated to all the organisations affiliated to Sustainable Users Network that a delay in implementation/enforcement applies to this requirement - also check with OATA who are well aware of this fact but don't disseminate incorrect information.


The legislation came into force on 1st October. When new legislation is made law, it's law.
The only issue in this legislation is around implementing civil powers. 
A head of policy does NOT overule law. Policy equally does not overule law. A trade organisation equally does not have the authority to over rule law. 
The national legal database for law enforcement shows that this requirement is in place. 
I think I'll take that over you're opinion.
It is quite clear - A10 number is required for an advert to constitute a lawful transaction.


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

ian14 said:


> The legislation came into force on 1st October. When new legislation is made law, it's law.
> The only issue in this legislation is around implementing civil powers.
> A head of policy does NOT overule law. Policy equally does not overule law. A trade organisation equally does not have the authority to over rule law.
> The national legal database for law enforcement shows that this requirement is in place.
> ...



So the Sustainable Users Network had our latest meeting with the DEFRA/APHA/JNCC/Border Force/Wildlife Crime Unit (yes, the ones who enforce the law!!) this past Tuesday. It was not only confirmed that this aspect of the legislation is not being implemented but that a 6 week consultation period on the requirement to post A10's on advertisements (it was confirmed that there will almost certainly be some exemptions to the requirement based on proportionality i.e. if more that 10 animals are being sold) commencing in January. Upon the conclusion of this consultation period the Government authorities are saying they will take a further 2-3 weeks to consolidate and consider the responses and then will issue on-line confirmation of the legal requirement coming into place. For those RFUK readers with some ability to engage their brain might want to ensure they have input into this DEFRA consultation (it will also enable readers to see what a fool this contrary contributor is and who is right on this matter).


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

aardvark28 said:


> So the Sustainable Users Network had our latest meeting with the DEFRA/APHA/JNCC/Border Force/Wildlife Crime Unit (yes, the ones who enforce the law!!) this past Tuesday. It was not only confirmed that this aspect of the legislation is not being implemented but that a 6 week consultation period on the requirement to post A10's on advertisements (it was confirmed that there will almost certainly be some exemptions to the requirement based on proportionality i.e. if more that 10 animals are being sold) commencing in January. Upon the conclusion of this consultation period the Government authorities are saying they will take a further 2-3 weeks to consolidate and consider the responses and then will issue on-line confirmation of the legal requirement coming into place. For those RFUK readers with some ability to engage their brain might want to ensure they have input into this DEFRA consultation (it will also enable readers to see what a fool this contrary contributor is and who is right on this matter).


As a wildlife crime officer I am awaiting a reply from the head of the NWCU for clarity on this. I have no Idea who you are so I am not going to just accept what you say.
The problem is that the new CITES Regs are now in force. There is NOTHING on the Police National Legal Database that states that Regulation 6 has not yet been implemented. Nor does it say this on Legislation.gov.uk.
Now, while DEFRA may be the Management Authority for CITES in the UK, it is Parliament that make and implement law. Unless the legislation has a proviso added that Reg 6 is not yet in place, it has to be taken that it is. It is not for a government department to say, well its now law, but it isn't as we don't know how to implement it. It's quite simple - for an ad to be lawful it must comply with Reg 6.
Before you start getting offensive and call me a fool again (and so you know I am one of only two officers in my force trained in CITES enforcement, so I do have a fairly strong x nsive working knowledge CITES legislation and enforcement) I will correct you in that the NWCU do not enforce the law. The only warranted police officer is the Head of the Unit. The other staff are a couple of field officers (retired police officers) and a couple of intelligence analysts. Their role is as an intelligence unit who provide investigative support when requested. The issue here is that, if you are right, police officers have not been informed of this. We were recently informed by the NWCU that the new Regs were in place and there was NOTHING from them to say that Reg 6 was not yet in play. So if an officer is investigating an alleged illegal advertisment then, as far as he/she is concerned the new legislation is in place. As will the CPS! The only mention of parts of the new Regs not being implemented yet are the civil sanctions. So if Reg 6 was also being delayed why was this not written in? 
It is interesting to see that one of the biggest classified sites in the UK requires adverts for Annex A specimens to include the certificate number. I cannot see why they would do this if it is not a legal requirement. 
I've had a look on gov.uk and there is nothing on there at all relating to a new consultation on implementation of existing legislation for CITES.
Perhaps you might care to post a link?


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

I am and have been the Coordinator for the Sustainable Users Network for 22 years and meet regularly with DEFRA, JNCC, NWCU, JNCC, APHA and RBG-Kew in that capacity and with a host of organisations affiliated to SUN. With respect I suggest a Wildlife Crime Officer should get themselves a damn site better informed, speak to those running this legislation and get the same feedback as we all received at our meeting with DEFRA/APHA/Border Force/JNCC and NWCU earlier this month.


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

ian14 said:


> As a wildlife crime officer I am awaiting a reply from the head of the NWCU for clarity on this. I have no Idea who you are so I am not going to just accept what you say.
> The problem is that the new CITES Regs are now in force. There is NOTHING on the Police National Legal Database that states that Regulation 6 has not yet been implemented. Nor does it say this on Legislation.gov.uk.
> Now, while DEFRA may be the Management Authority for CITES in the UK, it is Parliament that make and implement law. Unless the legislation has a proviso added that Reg 6 is not yet in place, it has to be taken that it is. It is not for a government department to say, well its now law, but it isn't as we don't know how to implement it. It's quite simple - for an ad to be lawful it must comply with Reg 6.
> Before you start getting offensive and call me a fool again (and so you know I am one of only two officers in my force trained in CITES enforcement, so I do have a fairly strong x nsive working knowledge CITES legislation and enforcement) I will correct you in that the NWCU do not enforce the law. The only warranted police officer is the Head of the Unit. The other staff are a couple of field officers (retired police officers) and a couple of intelligence analysts. Their role is as an intelligence unit who provide investigative support when requested. The issue here is that, if you are right, police officers have not been informed of this. We were recently informed by the NWCU that the new Regs were in place and there was NOTHING from them to say that Reg 6 was not yet in play. So if an officer is investigating an alleged illegal advertisment then, as far as he/she is concerned the new legislation is in place. As will the CPS! The only mention of parts of the new Regs not being implemented yet are the civil sanctions. So if Reg 6 was also being delayed why was this not written in?
> ...



………….and as I said in my very first post - if you care to read it - I stated that the authorities have informed stakeholders that they will not be implementing the requirement for A10's being stated on advertisements until they have jointly issued guidelines and completed a consultation in January/February. Of course, the law becomes the law upon promulgation but that's a separate matter to enforcement. Incidentally, since you appear keen to stress your CITES 'credentials' mine are that I have attended every single international CITES Conference of the Parties without a single omission in the past 21 years from Santiago to Doha, Bangkok to Johannesburg, every single CITES Animals Committee meeting - again with no omissions in the past 20 years - from Geneva and Lima to Vera Cruz; countless EU CITES meetings with the European Commission in Brussels besides the innumerable meetings with domestic authorities in the UK.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

And as I stated that has NOT been passed on to those of us who actually enforce the law. 
I am very well informed thankyou, so please stop with the high and mighty act. 
When I am back at work I will post a link to the Police National Legal Database that shows very clearly that what we have been told is contrary to what you are saying. 
If authorities have informed stakeholders that this is not yet being implemented, that has not been passed from stakeholders to ground level practitioners. 
Hence why I first asked for stickies on each section to inform users of a change in law. 
When you replied saying that this was not yet in place I emailed the NWCU to clarify this because from the available resources to officers, it IS in place. And as I said in my earlier post, if you bothered to read it in full, I am still awaiting a reply. And that request was sent before your meeting.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

As a further point, it may be prudent at future meetings to impress the importance of stakeholders informing operational officers at the earliest opportunity of decisions not to implement parts of new or amended legislation.
Had this been done prior to 1st October this argument would never have taken place.


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

ian14 said:


> As a further point, it may be prudent at future meetings to impress the importance of stakeholders informing operational officers at the earliest opportunity of decisions not to implement parts of new or amended legislation.
> Had this been done prior to 1st October this argument would never have taken place.


Agree mate other then that this is for the decision-makers to keep you enforcement guys properly informed not for us stakeholders to do so.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Finally had confirmation that Reg 6 is not currently being enforced. NWCU are checking the police national legal database to get this updated and send an email nationally to all forces.


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## aardvark28 (Oct 10, 2013)

Thanks for having the decency to confirm that my contention was/is correct mate - never wanted an argument with you folk at the front-end of enforcement but knew what we were being told by the owners of the legislation. Cheers pal.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

aardvark28 said:


> Thanks for having the decency to confirm that my contention was/is correct mate - never wanted an argument with you folk at the front-end of enforcement but knew what we were being told by the owners of the legislation. Cheers pal.


Just a shame that a) we weren't informed officially from the outset (and I don't think we would have been if I hadn't queried it after your posts) and b) that it took so long to get a reply to that query.
Still, all sorted now. Hopefully it won't take too long to draw up guidance as it's really not a difficult thing to do!


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