# Calmest dwarf/small cichlid



## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

After realising I cant keep any of the larger cichlids I have decided to do another dwarf cichlid tank. I have 2 tanks with Kribs (the best looking IMO) but the only trouble is nothing other than neons and harlequins can survive in there since they are savages when breeding even towards each other. I am starting to miss having a more peaceful tank with corys etc but I still would like to have the interaction of a pair breeding and showing off to each other all the time.

The tank is 120l and really looking for a pair of cichlids that are a bit calmer and more peaceful that Kribensis. I have seen a few people say German Rams but they don't seem to survive all that long and are tricky to get started. Also seen on a couple forums that Apistogramma could work but it would have to be tetras as tank mates again.

If anyone has any tips or advice it would be much appreciated.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

I swear by Rams but the normal ones not the expensive morphs which seem to be very fragile in comparison .

Rams have the size you want plus stunning looks and lovely calm temperament.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

Zincubus said:


> I swear by Rams but the normal ones not the expensive morphs which seem to be very fragile in comparison .
> 
> Rams have the size you want plus stunning looks and lovely calm temperament.


Which ones? 

The German blues or Bolivians?


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

herper147 said:


> Which ones?
> 
> The German blues or Bolivians?


The one I got look just like the ones I used to get 40 years ago , presumed that were just normals at £9.99 for a young pair .

Mine are identical to the ones in the link below although if suggests that they are German Blues ...


German Blue Rams (Only First Week) - 43114


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## treefella (Dec 21, 2013)

I have found over the years that the Bolivian ram is the easiest and most peaceful dwarf in the community set up .
Definitely not as colourful as it's cousin but easier to keep.
I kept mine at a PH of 6.5 with a dark substrate and subdued lighting with some black water extract and they colour up nicely.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> After realising I cant keep any of the larger cichlids I have decided to do another dwarf cichlid tank. I have 2 tanks with Kribs (the best looking IMO) but the only trouble is nothing other than neons and harlequins can survive in there since they are savages when breeding even towards each other. I am starting to miss having a more peaceful tank with corys etc but I still would like to have the interaction of a pair breeding and showing off to each other all the time.
> 
> The tank is 120l and really looking for a pair of cichlids that are a bit calmer and more peaceful that Kribensis. I have seen a few people say German Rams but they don't seem to survive all that long and are tricky to get started. Also seen on a couple forums that Apistogramma could work but it would have to be tetras as tank mates again.
> 
> If anyone has any tips or advice it would be much appreciated.





treefella said:


> I have found over the years that the Bolivian ram is the easiest and most peaceful dwarf in the community set up .
> Definitely not as colourful as it's cousin but easier to keep.
> I kept mine at a PH of 6.5 with a dark substrate and subdued lighting with some black water extract and they colour up nicely.


bolivian rams are certainly peaceful enough. also consider anomalochromis thomasi (african butterfly dwarf cichlid) & nannacara anomala (golden eyed dwarf cichlid). the latter are very hard to come by these days though.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

Really like the look of the anomalochromis thomasi, only trouble is finding some, but will phone around and look for some.

Thanks for the suggestions


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> Really like the look of the anomalochromis thomasi, only trouble is finding some, but will phone around and look for some.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions


they're reasonably easy to get. to sex them, the males are longer & slimmer, the females more round looking. in adults (which you'll rarely see for sale) the male's dorsal fin is more pointed. but even in smaller ones, look at the ventral fins- they are longer & sickle-shaped in comparison with the female's ventrals, which although pointed, are shorter. 
btw, when thomasi are settled in a planted tank, they get a lilac undertone & rose-red flashes in the tail.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

wilkinss77 said:


> they're reasonably easy to get. to sex them, the males are longer & slimmer, the females more round looking. in adults (which you'll rarely see for sale) the male's dorsal fin is more pointed. but even in smaller ones, look at the ventral fins- they are longer & sickle-shaped in comparison with the female's ventrals, which although pointed, are shorter.
> btw, when thomasi are settled in a planted tank, they get a lilac undertone & rose-red flashes in the tail.


Phoned a local shop and I think they have some, the guy said yes and when I said the latin name just went "Oh, maybe not. Think you have to come see them for yourself":lol2:

So not the best help but will go down tomorrow, think they are exactly the fish I am after. If not I might get the Bolivians.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> Phoned a local shop and I think they have some, the guy said yes and when I said the latin name just went "Oh, maybe not. Think you have to come see them for yourself":lol2:
> 
> So not the best help but will go down tomorrow, think they are exactly the fish I am after. If not I might get the Bolivians.


there are defo some thomasi out there if you look. bolivian rams are very hard to sex, & impossible unless at least sub-adult. you really need to see the ovipositor tubes extended to tell. in adults the males have filaments on the upper & lower ends of the tail- but these can get bitten off.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

wilkinss77 said:


> there are defo some thomasi out there if you look. bolivian rams are very hard to sex, & impossible unless at least sub-adult. you really need to see the ovipositor tubes extended to tell. in adults the males have filaments on the upper & lower ends of the tail- but these can get bitten off.


Do you know how aggressive they are if I do end up with 2 of the same sex? 
I got a pair of Kribs that were 100% sexed and they still almost killed each other the day I got them so cant imagine what 2 of the same sex would be like.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> Do you know how aggressive they are if I do end up with 2 of the same sex?
> I got a pair of Kribs that were 100% sexed and they still almost killed each other the day I got them so cant imagine what 2 of the same sex would be like.


2 females won't bother each other, but males will. that applies to any cichlid. sexed thomasi pairs don't fight much, neither do pairs of bolivian rams.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

Now torn between Apistogramma cacatuoides and anomalochromis thomasi both such cool fish


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> Now torn between Apistogramma cacatuoides and anomalochromis thomasi both such cool fish


a.cacatuoides is a beautiful fish, & probably the hardiest apisto- but all the same it is short-lived (2-3 years i think) & quite water quality-sensitive. thomasi on the other hand live for years & are as tough as old boots.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

wilkinss77 said:


> a.cacatuoides is a beautiful fish, & probably the hardiest apisto- but all the same it is short-lived (2-3 years i think) & quite water quality-sensitive. thomasi on the other hand live for years & are as tough as old boots.


Will hopefully be going to a couple shops tomorrow and will see what they got, I will be happy with either


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> Will hopefully be going to a couple shops tomorrow and will see what they got, I will be happy with either


you could keep both if you have a planted tank- neither are particularly nasty. as for thomasi, if no shops have them, one or more might order some in if you ask. but the one who said he's got them should be your first port of call. you see, he might not know the current latin name- it's been changed over the years from pelmatochromis thomasi, to hemichromis thomasi, to its current name.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

wilkinss77 said:


> you could keep both if you have a planted tank- neither are particularly nasty. as for thomasi, if no shops have them, one or more might order some in if you ask. but the one who said he's got them should be your first port of call. you see, he might not know the current latin name- it's been changed over the years from pelmatochromis thomasi, to hemichromis thomasi, to its current name.


I have always felt weird about ordering fish as a few years ago I ordered some Corydoras habrosus and what the guy brought in were torn apart and could barely swim. I refused them and then he kicked up a fuss and demanded I took them since I ordered them, I just walked straight out the door and never went back.

Seems like there are few reliable high quality shops in Kent, mostly garden centres and the odd tiny store, with more marine or goldfish than cichlids.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> I have always felt weird about ordering fish as a few years ago I ordered some Corydoras habrosus and what the guy brought in were torn apart and could barely swim. I refused them and then he kicked up a fuss and demanded I took them since I ordered them, I just walked straight out the door and never went back.
> 
> Seems like there are few reliable high quality shops in Kent, mostly garden centres and the odd tiny store, with more marine or goldfish than cichlids.


is there a maidenhead aquatics branch? btw, any reliable shop should get good quality stock if you ask them to order fish.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

wilkinss77 said:


> is there a maidenhead aquatics branch? btw, any reliable shop should get good quality stock if you ask them to order fish.


Nearest one is Dartford I think, so quite a trip.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> Nearest one is Dartford I think, so quite a trip.


maidenhead are very good, stock a fair few cichlids, & i think they'll order fish. there are several in kent- apart from dartford, there are branches in ramsgate, sevenoaks & tunbridge wells. go to the shop that said they have thomasi- they might be the real mccoy.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

wilkinss77 said:


> maidenhead are very good, stock a fair few cichlids, & i think they'll order fish. there are several in kent- apart from dartford, there are branches in ramsgate, sevenoaks & tunbridge wells. go to the shop that said they have thomasi- they might be the real mccoy.


Quick question, how do you think either a pair of thomasi or apisto would get on with a lone female krib? The female from my second krib tank got real tore up by the male and have had to separate them and really don't think she will survive in the old tank so will have to stay in the newer tank until she is better to go back or to take her to a shop.


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## love_reptiles (Mar 1, 2009)

Don't completely write off rams - especially electric blues and the like.

They are very peaceful towards other fish (as far as cichlids go), stay small and when settled into an established aquarium, are stunning. They particularly appreciate planted tanks and will show off their best colours in this environment. 

They are fairly sensitive to ammonia and nitrites but if you're keeping your water in check this shouldn't be a problem anyway - every fish has sensitivities to this. I think where a lot of people go wrong with them is having high nitrates - these guys are particularly sensitive to this and simply won't tolerate it. If you're introducing rams and they're dropping within a couple of days you may well find it's due to nitrate shock - as decent shops will be keeping theirs low. Picking good stock is key too. If the batch looks undernourished, wait a few weeks and pop back and see if they're established. Personally I'd look for good body mass and fish that are giving the others a telling off. 

Failing that, Appistos are a good choice as Wilkins mentioned. I've not personally kept these so can't advise on them more.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

I decided on Apisto after seeing some young ones today. Although now not sure about getting a pair or a trio? Most sites say 1:2 ratio of males to females but the second female may be bullied?

So anyone kept these know if they are best with 1 or 2 females?


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

herper147 said:


> I decided on Apisto after seeing some young ones today. Although now not sure about getting a pair or a trio? Most sites say 1:2 ratio of males to females but the second female may be bullied?
> 
> So anyone kept these know if they are best with 1 or 2 females?


best kept as a trio, unless they're sold by the pair as they usually are. Please be aware though, that all apisto's are water sensitive & can be delicate.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

wilkinss77 said:


> best kept as a trio, unless they're sold by the pair as they usually are. Please be aware though, that all apisto's are water sensitive & can be delicate.


Yeah they are sold by the pair for £12.99 not sure if that is a good price or not?

Bit worried about them being sensitive but a lot of people seem to say they are pretty hardy so I think it should be fine. Just need to get them some tankmates but no where seems to have any cardinal tetras or hatchetfish which is baffeling. Also saw some stunning little Julii Cory although think they are mislabeled.


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## Robbie (Dec 4, 2006)

wilkinss77 said:


> there are defo some thomasi out there if you look.


I'm no longer in the pet trade but we imported them every 2-3 weeks from the Czech Republic. I left in 2012 and we were still offered them frequently.


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## Robbie (Dec 4, 2006)

herper147 said:


> Yeah they are sold by the pair for £12.99 not sure if that is a good price or not?
> 
> Bit worried about them being sensitive but a lot of people seem to say they are pretty hardy so I think it should be fine. Just need to get them some tankmates but no where seems to have any cardinal tetras or hatchetfish which is baffeling. Also saw some stunning little Julii Cory although think they are mislabeled.


I found cacatuoides to do better in pairs. There always seemed to be one female who took the brunt of the bullying.

If you're looking into Apisto (my favourite of all freshwater fish) for a com tank I'd recommend apistogramma borellii. I kept my lot in slightly larger tanks with plenty of shrub and cones/tubes in groups of 6 or more and they flourished along side a few shoaling groups and one or two random favourites. Surprisingly along side a Paradise fish who was constantly thrown into my hospital tank for being a prized buffoon at any given point.

Have you had a peek at some shell-dwellers?


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

Robbie said:


> I found cacatuoides to do better in pairs. There always seemed to be one female who took the brunt of the bullying.
> 
> If you're looking into Apisto (my favourite of all freshwater fish) for a com tank I'd recommend apistogramma borellii. I kept my lot in slightly larger tanks with plenty of shrub and cones/tubes in groups of 6 or more and they flourished along side a few shoaling groups and one or two random favourites. Surprisingly along side a Paradise fish who was constantly thrown into my hospital tank for being a prized buffoon at any given point.
> 
> Have you had a peek at some shell-dwellers?



Looked at shell dwellers a few times but couldn't find them anywhere


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

Robbie said:


> I found cacatuoides to do better in pairs. There always seemed to be one female who took the brunt of the bullying.
> 
> If you're looking into Apisto (my favourite of all freshwater fish) for a com tank I'd recommend apistogramma borellii. I kept my lot in slightly larger tanks with plenty of shrub and cones/tubes in groups of 6 or more and they flourished along side a few shoaling groups and one or two random favourites. Surprisingly along side a Paradise fish who was constantly thrown into my hospital tank for being a prized buffoon at any given point.
> 
> Have you had a peek at some shell-dwellers?



I kept a huge male Paradise fish many years ago for quite some time . He was a killing machine and couldn't be trusted with any others - I ended up keeping him like a goldfish , by himself in a small tank of water , no heat / filter / aeration ..... he thrived !!


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## Robbie (Dec 4, 2006)

Zincubus said:


> I kept a huge male Paradise fish many years ago for quite some time . He was a killing machine and couldn't be trusted with any others - I ended up keeping him like a goldfish , by himself in a small tank of water , no heat / filter / aeration ..... he thrived !!


They're solid. Ps- don't get a paradise fish.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

Robbie said:


> They're solid. Ps- don't get a paradise fish.


You realise that far from recommending them I was simply commenting on the previous post ...


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## Robbie (Dec 4, 2006)

Zincubus said:


> You realise that far from recommending them I was simply commenting on the previous post ...


I was being humorous.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

Robbie said:


> I was being humorous.


Apologies . No smilie = no smile in my world .


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## Robbie (Dec 4, 2006)

Zincubus said:


> Apologies . No smilie = no smile in my world .


I'm weaning myself of my exorbitant use of smilies.

My old shop has a Snakehead flying around a tank on his own. I might go take him now. All this talk of fish!


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

Robbie said:


> I'm weaning myself of my exorbitant use of smilies.
> 
> My old shop has a Snakehead flying around a tank on his own. I might go take him now. All this talk of fish!


An interesting buy for sure


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