# Antivenom costs UK?



## Liam Sinclair (Sep 10, 2019)

Hi all, 
i dont have DWA but im researching around the topic. Many reccommend purchasing vials of antivenom for the species you are keeping. I like north american species in general so anything dwa would be rattlesnake, copperhead, cottonmouth sort of thing. So everything viperidae. 

What kinds of antivenom would be needed and at what cost. I saw somewhere that a vial of O.hannah antivenom was $40 a vial but have found nothing for the UK.

Any knowledge would be appreciated.


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## Josha80619 (Oct 1, 2016)

Liam, I believe that antivenom is not allowed to be privately kept in the uk. Zoos and certain other places hold stocks including the liverpool school for tropical medicine.


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## rogersspider2007 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Antivenom*

from what I was told is that it has a shelf life, yes it can be very expensive but more importantly if you did get bitten and you had the right Antivenom the hospital who would be treating wouldn't use it, in their eyes it could be anything, I hope someone can correct me if I am wrong?


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## snaketats (Oct 27, 2008)

It’s an administered “drug” I believe as over dose can be as serious as the bite due to it being venom worked with sheep/horse white cells to create the anti venom. Best course of action is having LSoTM on speed dial.


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## DaOG (Jun 6, 2013)

I dont know if he is still around but some one who used to look after the snakes and milk them at the LSTM used to use this forum


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## Liam Sinclair (Sep 10, 2019)

Josha80619 said:


> Liam, I believe that antivenom is not allowed to be privately kept in the uk. Zoos and certain other places hold stocks including the liverpool school for tropical medicine.


is there anywhere i can read about this?


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## Stu II (May 22, 2008)

Zoos that keep DWA venomous animals are required to hold the appropriate antivenom. As a private keeper, there is no requirement and you won't be able get hold it via any proper channels. You may find some from foreign websites, but that obviously comes with it's own risks. Most, if not all antivenom requires refrigeration and has a relatively short shelf life.

Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine holds antivenom for the north of the country, Guys and St. Thomas Hospital's poison unit, in London, holds stocks for the south.

I'd recommend finding out which antivenoms you need and printing out the relevant details, including species name on a laminated card. This can be velcroed to the front of the enclosure, ready to be ripped off and taken with the casualty to hospital, in the event of a bite. I'd also contact your nearest A&E department in advance, and let them know that you keep DWA. These two things could save valuable time, if the worst happens, as you are less likely to have to explain/convince anyone what has happened.

This website should allow you to find out which antivenom(s) are appropriate:

WCH Clinical Toxinology Resources


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Nobody needs to stock antivenom in the UK. Antivenoms for species most commonly kept by private keepers are stocked by the NHS. Some others are stocked at several Zoos throughout the country.

I did the research on this topic last year - see the link below.

https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/for...antivenoms-stocked-public-health-england.html


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

ViperLover said:


> Nobody needs to stock antivenom in the UK. Antivenoms for species most commonly kept by private keepers are stocked by the NHS. Some others are stocked at several Zoos throughout the country.
> 
> I did the research on this topic last year - see the link below.
> 
> https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/for...antivenoms-stocked-public-health-england.html


Not surprisingly I had no idea the NHS actually stock antivenom. Surely apart from carrying the antivenom for an adder (bonus if it treats other bites) it's a massive waste of money?


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## Stu II (May 22, 2008)

Basin79 said:


> Not surprisingly I had no idea the NHS actually stock antivenom. Surely apart from carrying the antivenom for an adder (bonus if it treats other bites) it's a massive waste of money?


How would the drain NHS resources compare to a smoker or drinker? Or a skier, or a hang glider or a boxer? Lots of people's hobbies are subsidised by the NHS, if you look at it that way. A quick Google tells me that the planned spending for the Department of Health and Social Care in England (not UK) is £140.4 billion in 2019/20. I don't know what percentage goes on antivenom, but I'd be willing to bet that they spend more on paperclips every year.

And you'd be surprised how many venomous creatures end up in the UK by accident. We've had_Phoneutria_, _Latrodectus_ and a fair few buthids end up at our place as accidental imports. Some with food, some with other imported goods and some brought back in luggage from people's holidays.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Basin79 said:


> Not surprisingly I had no idea the NHS actually stock antivenom. Surely apart from carrying the antivenom for an adder (bonus if it treats other bites) it's a massive waste of money?


Not really.

Saving lives is never a waste of money. You must also consider that the antivenom exists as a safety net in the event that the unthinkable happens, and a member of the public is bitten or stung by an escaped venomous animal.
The NHS also stocks as much antivenom as possible to provide cover for the team at LSTM. The institution has a duty of care to provide this. 

Thankfully, a bite hasn't been recorded since 2002. The senior herpetologist is a good friend of mine (he used to use this forum and CB regularly) and I'd much rather he had a safety net while also providing cover to private keepers.

The cost of purchasing and stocking antivenom is minimal. Governments don't pay the same ridiculous prices that private citizens pay in the U.S. for example.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

As other people have correctly stated, Antivenom is a controlled drug that cannot easily be imported into the UK. Private Venomous Keepers are advised not to purchase or hold their own Antivenom for a number of reasons, not least that the hospitals typically will not want to administer patient supplied AV. 

The NHS / PHE is well aware of the costs of purchasing and maintaining stocks of AV both for bites from the British Adder and exotic venomous species held in zoos, institutions, and privately. For this reason, they have recently asked if any private keepers have Boomslangs as it is an expensive AV to hold if this species isn't being kept privately.

There are a number of sites around the UK holding AV which means better coverage. Specialist Clinicians advise strongly against private keepers drawing up their own "snake-bite protocols" as this has led to very serious problems in the past. 

If a bite occurs from an non-native venomous species, phone for an ambulance, politely inform paramedics and hospital staff what caused the bite and take along a card stating the Speices common name, Scienfic name and country of origin (if known) which should be on the front of any viv holding venomous speices. Hospital Staff will then contact PHE/ Poisons Unit who in turn will put them in touch with the on-call speacilst Clinician able to deal with such cases.

I set this account up some time ago as I lost my original log-in details. After the under-handed stunt that was pulled on me back in May, I have gone off the social grid.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

ViperLover said:


> Not really.
> 
> Saving lives is never a waste of money. You must also consider that the antivenom exists as a safety net in the event that the unthinkable happens, and a member of the public is bitten or stung by an escaped venomous animal.
> The NHS also stocks as much antivenom as possible to provide cover for the team at LSTM. The institution has a duty of care to provide this.
> ...


Aye I know HH runs LSTM venomous department. The thing about "saving lives is never a waste of money" is that in the real world there is absolutely a price put on life. That typed I was under the impression antivenom was a ridiculous amount of money which you've just informed me that isn't the case when being bought by the government.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Basin79 said:


> Aye I know HH runs LSTM venomous department. The thing about "saving lives is never a waste of money" is that in the real world there is absolutely a price put on life. That typed I was under the impression antivenom was a ridiculous amount of money which you've just informed me that isn't the case when being bought by the government.


Oh, it still is really expensive, it's just not upwards of £10,000 for a single ampule of a drug that may require 20 or more.

Monovalent antivenoms are more expensive, and as Paul said, Public Health England are considering ditching the UK's Boomslang monovalent stocks if it's no longer necessary to stock it.

The man himself has commented, anyway - I didn't think he would but the OP can now ask questions directly to somebody involved.


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## rogersspider2007 (Apr 2, 2007)

from my understanding when i first started keeping venomous private keepers wasnt required to keep the antivenom due to its shelf life and cost, the other thing was the fact if the keeper got bitten and took his/her own antivenom to the hospital then the chances was they would not use it because they dont know whats in the vial, obviously this has already been said previously.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

rogersspider2007 said:


> from my understanding when i first started keeping venomous private keepers wasnt required to keep the antivenom due to its shelf life and cost, the other thing was the fact if the keeper got bitten and took his/her own antivenom to the hospital then the chances was they would not use it because they dont know whats in the vial, obviously this has already been said previously.


Not only that, they can't guarantee that the antivenom was stored properly.
In a hospital pharmacy, this is regulated and there are contingency plans in the event there's a loss of power.

Poor quality AV is going to kill you faster than any venomous snakebite, on any part of the body. It just isn't worth it.

Besides, the cost for a private keeper to stock their own AV will be more than the collection and the room is worth, in many cases. It's just not sustainable for a drug that has a shelf life of around two years, if memory serves.


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