# My dart frog tank WIP



## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok as i said i was thinking of selling up the marine tank and guess what i have :lol2:
I kept a few things like external filter with built in UV the light unit and 4 fans
as its got a water fall with small pond in the middle i know you cant have this deep so there will be some fancy rocks in there. I really want azureus as they are my fav dart frog i will also be throwing this up on the dendroboard.
Anyway heres a few pics of the tank so far still very early stages.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

If you've kept marines, especially if you had a mini reef, then meeting the needs of darts wont seem all that difficult to you. 

One thing I will say is, a bit tank will feel wasted on Azureas. Like most tincs Azureas do best in sexed pairs or male heavy trios. They'd LOVE all that space, however you may find yourself thinking it's too much for so few frogs.

At which point, you may wish you'd considered dendrobates leucomelas or auratus, as these do better in groups than Azureas do. 

Azureas however are seriously gorgeous looking frogs.

Don't worry too much about depth, having plenty to climb out on is more important, so frogs can easily reach something to climb out on before becoming exhausted. Although a few folks still insist that dart frogs drown at the drop of a hat, many more folks these days have reached the conclusion that this a myth based on already sick frogs 'drowning' or the result of dominance fights (eg. 1 female tinc holding another under the water surface).

Ade


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Are the dendrobates leucomelas all the same colour yellow and black or are there diff colours also can you mix diff colours i know you cant mix diff spieces?


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

shortyshazz said:


> Are the dendrobates leucomelas all the same colour yellow and black or are there diff colours also can you mix diff colours i know you cant mix diff spieces?


There are a few different forms, you can get green and there is also chocolate but both are expensive and rare. Www.dartfrog.co.uk has the green form with blue feet at the moment but they won't be around for long. There are also several forms of the yellow and black. They are some of the most interesting and comical frogs that would do well in you set up. I would not mix different forms unless it is an all male group as you don't want to breed hybrids. I have successfully kept a breeding group of 5 tincs (2 male, 3 female) in a large viv so you may get away with it. Just be prepared to rehouse some if fighting occurs.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Spot on, apart from chocolate leucs aren't a morph, they're just a genetic fluke and are supposed to be kept with normal leucs of their kind rather than other chocolate ones.

There are very very few dart frogs where you can mix different colours I'm afraid. Those that you can are often considered more difficult, for example cemetary locality oophaga pumilio Bastimentos and oophaga pumilio Punta Clara.

Another frog, I'll probably get jumped on for suggesting them though lol, you could consider are ameerega bassieri 'Sisa'. Some would question their suitability for a beginner to darts, but I reckon given your history with marines you've already demonstrated that you are up to the research and preparation. The down side with these is that they have a rep for been very very shy. Mine aren't in the slightest bit shy though, I put this down to their viv having more hiding places than you can shake a stick at... lol Suggesting them though as they are a lovely black and blue/bluegreen and can be kept in a small group. Old pic of one of mine (grown loads since this was taken):-










The viv I keep them in:-










All this said, I would still really encourage you to consider dendrobates leucomelas. Yellow and black might not seem that wow, but the character of these frogs really is stunning. I keep all sorts of darts, including pums, but still put my leucs in a bigger viv recently and obtained another 4 to go in with them. 










Don't worry about not having enough colours in your viv by been fixed to only certain coloured frogs by the way! You can really go nuts with plant colours with darts:-










Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Cheers Ade didn't realise the chola yes weren't a morph.

As Ade has suggested auratus may be a good compromise. The blue form is simply stunning although some can be a bit shy.


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

I thank you ppl for the info and yeah looks like i will be getting the leucs for this tank as i would like to have a speices that uses the space. I do like those greenish leucs form with blue feet on the dartfrog uk. If the tank was all setup ready i would of had the 4 of them. Yeah im pretty confident i could keep darts. As i had a full reef but moved house with the lot and tank crashed only the hardest speices of coral fish and inverts survived and no matter how much money i threw at the tank it just didnt get back to what it was like.
So that aside i decided to give it ago at the dart frogs always loved them.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

You had better start culturing the food ASAP. Leucs like there food. Most of us aren't Dartfrog keepers, we are fruit fly, springtails and dwarf woodlice breeders who happen to have frogs. The food takes more care and time than the bloody frogs :lol2:


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Yep spend more time culturing the food than looking at the frogs :lol2: 
reminds me of making my own food for the marine and you wouldnt want to make a smoothy in my food blender :lol2:
Are the culture kits any good for dart frogs? Or is it better cheaper to just do it all yourself?


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

I have always used the culture kits some from Dartfrog and some I imported from Ed's Fly Meat in USA. Lots of people on here make their own but I just couldn't be bothered with the hassle. It's easy to make your own cultures of springtails and woodlice. I also culture lesser wax moth larvae as well. The more variety the better especially as fruit fly cultures tend to crash from time to time and you need something to tide you over until you can get more cultures started. There is something quite rewarding about culturing your own food.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I have one of those gardener's kneeler/stools in front of my vivs, so when I am culturing or feeding I sit on that so I can watch the frogs at the same time. 

Backup foods I culture bean weevils (cheers Mike. lol) and grain weevils, as well as the usual dwarf woodlice, springtails and flies. Don't be scared to load up on springtails cultures! I have 6 of the seira species and 2 of a smaller slightly blue looking wiggly variety on peat plates. Once you start producing offspring you'll be surprised how many springs you need. lol I've also got 100 adult Turkistan Roaches ordered, so will be culturing these too soon. I tested small ones of these on my Sisa, and Mike tried them with leucs, and they were taken with relish by both species. Unlike Dubias etc they're softer bodied, and don't grow as large either. My Sisa normally get fed small to medium crickets as they are such big eaters fruit flies don't cut it with them, but the roaches are far less destructive and don't run off and hide like crickets do.

Culture media I use Repashy Superfly for the wingless flies and make my own for the hydei. It's a snap to make, I just mix up some cheapo ready brek with some potato flakes, then mix in some Repashy Calcium Plus for extra vits to start with. Then when I make up a culture I mix this with boiled but cooled to warm water, then put a tiny sprinkle of yeast on the top. No vinegar, no sugar, no nothing. If you put in enough flies to seed the culture you just don't get mould.

I can empathize with the tank crash Shazz. We moved in April too, moving my 62 gallon high tech planted tank. I lost nearly all of my plants, and have now reduced lighting on there to go lower tech, and it just doesn't look a fraction as good now. Most of the fish survived though, so my wife wont allow me to convert the tank into a viv, especially as it's rather new. lol That's how I know you wont find darts that hard to keep, as anybody who's spent time not only maintaining temps but also carefully balancing water chemistry etc etc should find maintaining temperature and humidity a snap, and culturing flies etc is easy anyway. lol 

Ade


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Some very good info ppl cheers. I also kept my RO unit now with RO water is it good for the plants? i will fill the pond and external filter with RO but will it be any good for misting the tank?
Has any body tried to make there own misting system?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I wouldn't use RO in standing water like ponds etc. If your frogs decided to soak in it it can cause them kidney problems. Better to use HMA water, bottled water or even dechlorinated tapwater in standing water.

For misting, if you are using a mysting system then yeah, RO is probably best as nozzles take longer to block that way. You can use RO hand misting too if you wish as you already have the system.

RO is ok for plants, but you will want to periodically either give them some water that's a bit harder, or use something like an aquarium trace fert in very dilute amounts. Plants use calcium to fix nitrogen from nitrates.

As to making your own system, I doubt it's worth the bother of buying a coffee machine pump etc. Not when you can grab a MistKing fairly cheaply, like this one Misting Equipment :: MistKing :: Misting Systems - JungleFrog.

Ade

Ade


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

The pond wouldn't be standing water its constantly cycling through the external filter and the waterfall. I did have a leek in the waterfall so im repairing that at the moment.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

You've misunderstood.

When I say standing water, I mean water that sits in pools, bowls etc, rather than water that is sprayed into the viv and drains away. Dart frogs WILL sit in water in ponds etc, and the purity of RO can cause them very real kidney problems. It's the same with freshwater fish too. You have to either rebuild it using expensive products, or either mix it with harder water or just use none RO water for those parts. The dilution from misting wont impact it as badly as quickly, as you will want things set up so that water levels drop even with misting, and so need topping up periodically.

Even your marines would have had trouble with RO (apart from the obvious that it's freshwater... lol), but the salt mixes used add calcium, magnesium etc back into the water.

Hope this has explained things better.

Ade


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok so will it be ok to mix the RO with bottled water for the pond say 50/50 i also have a TDS meter and tested the RO and its 0.05?
Also where could i find some nice wood from big pieces its expensive to buy 
do anyone go get there own from forestry how do you know if theres nastys on them?
Also can you get your own leaf litter and stick it in the microwave and nuke it?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Mixing it will be fine, just don't use it pure for the pond. 

Ron and Stu are probably the best folks to ask about wild collecting decor. I tend to just buy cork branches as they're so cheap and last ages.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

simply put you don't know if there are nasties on your wild collected wood,but all our native phib are terrestrial,so if you collect off the ground,or keep,said wood off the ground for long periods,then risks are reduced considerably.

So choices of native would revolve around hardwoodsersonal choice wood:blush: be oak,look carefully at a big oak and you'll see the beauty in those dead branches,talk to local tree surgeons/foresters,and you'll find some.Unfortunately some of these big old tress have to come down.To me its just recycling.
Beyond this,not much to disagree with in this thread,i could add in rainwater,i guess,i think leucs would be a great start,but the guys have your back me thinks,more springtails now chillin over

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Just to add, if you are going to use native wood, the best safe selection is probably most fruitwood; apple, pear, plum, damson etc, and most nutwood; beech, sweet chesnut, hazel, walnut, and as Stu mentioned, oak- which also has the advantage of being pretty rot-resistant. Sycamore and willow are fine, too, but avoid pine, yew and similar evergreens- they can be toxic. Most of the beasties on 'found' wood will be harmless to your frogs (and can even provide tasty snacks! :mf_dribble but if you are worried, dry the pieces out under cover for a while.


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok sorry for no updates been busy moved house and xmas as well but we are getting there now. A few pics of the tank at the moment.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Looking good, although some of the broms seem to be planted in the soil? They have a tendancy to rot off, that way. Ooh, and forgot to mention, yes you can use fallen leaves/ leaflitter, I personally don't bother to nuke it, but I know Stu prefers to so as to remove nemerteans- a kind of predatory flatworm that feed on springtails. Since my springtails are cleaning crew rather than food, on the whole, I don't worry about them.


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Added some moss today i do want to get more broms but yea i did here they dont do well in the soil do you think they will be better in cork bark tubes im kicking myself now for not putting in plant pots into the background.
Also had springtails and tropical woodlice today from dart frog now i have a question will they be ok in the cupboard in the bottom of the viv its dark in there are they ok in the dark?
with the tropical woodlice do i feed them fish flake and thats all? looks like theres some in there.
I had food for the springtails its a starter culture kit 
woodlice was a mega pack.
Anyway few pics.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah broms will rot and die in the soil. I had one like what you have in there already with the pink doobry on in my first ever planted tank and it just turned to mush eventually. Don't worry about not sculpting pots in to the background- you've got loads of perches that you could grow them off :2thumb:


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok im calling this done now heres some pics of the tank i have also got springtail culture woodlice culture and fruit flie culture on the go.
just need some frogs now and done :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Shaz can i throw something at you? Mate you need a deep layer of leaves on this viv. Dart frogs just love this stuff i rear kids on this and this alone,very few plants if at all, It provides a massive hunting habitat micro niches of high humidity and the breakdown of leaves is a food source for woodlice/springtails. It's a cracking build ,but it needs a forest floor. Moss rarely grows on the floor a s it gets swamped by falling leaves,on branches off the floor ,sure, but not on the floor itself. Primary habitat for alot of darts is leaf litter,not all ,but alot
regards

Stu


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok yeah i will grab some off dart frog again. the moss is also shooting some sort of plants up i guess there where seeds init. cheers for the heads up.:2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

And yes, the springtails and woodlice will be fine in the dark. They breed faster kept warm, but they don't need light.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

shortyshazz said:


> Ok yeah i will grab some off dart frog again. the moss is also shooting some sort of plants up i guess there where seeds init. cheers for the heads up.:2thumb:


Shaz,although its been so damn wet this year finding leaves might be tricky,their are some leaves here you can use ,but don't have to buy.

Oak clematis armandii magnolia are some good ones we use, Ron will confirm but bamboo might be another,Ron noted earlier we now sterilise leaves,i boil them dry them and then use,

Stu


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

I live in a pretty built up area so i think buying them is best i think. But when im out and about from where i live i will get some.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Shaz,although its been so damn wet this year finding leaves might be tricky,their are some leaves here you can use ,but don't have to buy.
> 
> Oak clematis armandii magnolia are some good ones we use,* Ron will confirm but bamboo might be another,Ron noted earlier we now sterilise leaves,i boil them dry them and then use,*
> 
> Stu


You do- I don't keep 'pantywaist' dart frogs, so it's not an issue!:lol2:Being serious for a change, you can sterilise your leaves by nuking them in the microwave, or as suggested, boil them.


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok ppl im ready for some Dendrobates leucomelas bumble bees. Not sure how many to get really so any help would be great.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm only guessing at the size of that tank, so I may be out a bit. However I would say you'd be fine with a group of 6-7 leucs in there. I have 7 in a 100cm x 47cm x 50cm viv myself.

The one caveat I will give you is when keeping groups you have to stay on top of pulling any eggs laid by lights out. Leave them in too long and other females will eat them, possibly in an attempt to reduce competition with their own offspring. It's no biggy though as leucs are really easy to rear. I just pop the eggs in a petri dish with a splash of water (I put a tiny bit of methylene blue in mine to keep mould at bay on decent eggs, nothing will stop bad eggs moulding though), pop the lid on the dish and put it back in the viv with the parents. They can't eat them as the lid gets in the way, but they're kept plenty warm enough. Once they hatch I transfer them after a couple of days to my 'tadpole system', 1 per cup. Once front legs pop I move them into cricket tubs with moss at one end, water at the other (tipping the tub to get this). I stop feeding them when I see their tails starting to be absorbed. Once the tails are gone, and they've stopped going back to the water I transfer them to a rearing viv. I should note I've JUST gotten to the moving to a rearing tank stage for the first time with leucs. Bred pums, tinctorius Regina and vents, but this was my first time with leucs as for a long long time I had only 3 females. lol More info than you asked for, but heh. lol

There's a good article on leucs, written by frogman (Mike) in the BAKS newsletter, issue 1. You will need to register (for free) but once you have you can freely download a copy from Newsletters.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Oops, I was so busy being silly I forgot to answer Stus' point about bamboo leaves; I use these in my Asian spiny toad tank- for that 'Asian look', dontcha know :lol2:, and I can confirm that they are practically indestructable- I do top them up occasionally, but we are talking every few months, rather than weeks. Although my toad tank is themed, having lived in Latin America, I can confirm they grow there too! :2thumb:

I use full-size leaves from a would-be trifid we have trying to conquer large parts of our garden, but the small ones freely available to grow in tubs work just as well, and would be more in scale with your leucs.


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok i have now got 4 Dendrobates leucomelas think there around 5 months old. had them for over a week they are brill you where right they use the hole tank space very active in there. I would like to get more. If i do get more do they need to be the same age silly question i know but im just making sure. I cant seem to find any down south wales.
Also got more leaf litter in there. Heres a few snaps.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Mixed ages is fine with leucs Shazz. Heck I had my females for a couple of years before I got my male and 3 unknown youngsters from Mike, all are doing fine and I am now producing leucs. lol

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Mixed ages is fine with leucs Shazz. Heck I had my females for a couple of years before I got my male and 3 unknown youngsters from Mike, all are doing fine and I am now producing leucs. lol
> 
> Ade


 That confirms what I vaguely remembered Mike saying, ages ago, that he wasn't worried about cannibalism in leucs. Fascinating.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye, you just don't want to keep the tadpoles together past about 4 days.  I made the mistake and went from 5 to 1 with my first lot........

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Aye, you just don't want to keep the tadpoles together past about 4 days. I made the mistake and went from 5 to 1 with my first lot........
> 
> Ade


I did put about 10 tinc tads together when I ran out of space without loosing one. I used a 30 litre tank and loads of elodea. I wouldn't do it out of choice but it can be done. Black jungle raise all their tinc tads this way but keep their thumbnail tads separated.


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Cheers guys for all your help really appreciate it ok i will remember that about tads


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

shortyshazz said:


> Cheers guys for all your help really appreciate it ok i will remember that about tads


Most of the time I just use plastic cups for each tad and change the water every other day.


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## brynnjenkins (Aug 11, 2012)

this has been a quality read  hope to see some up dates in the future
brynn-fish


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok thought i would update a little. They are doing great although 1 frog seems to be on its own but at feeding times the 3 of them eat all together. As these are feeding i then feed the other 1. Plants are growing in there also moss is growing in places.
Also i have heard calling so im thinking these must be older than i thought they were i hear it when lights are out and through the day.
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww23/gazza24/frogtank002_zpsa6d1ea33.jpg
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww23/gazza24/frogtank003_zps6daa9b7f.jpg
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww23/gazza24/frogtank004_zps5a23ac82.jpg
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww23/gazza24/frogtank005_zps5654d5f0.jpg
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww23/gazza24/frogtank006_zpscfdfa804.jpg


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> That confirms what I vaguely remembered Mike saying, ages ago, that he wasn't worried about cannibalism in leucs. Fascinating.


I was going to reply to this ages ago but completely forgot.
What I do with my Leucs and Azureus is.
When they hatch I leave them in the petri dish for a day or 2.
Then I put them in a container together for a week or so.
Remember that they don`t eat for near on a week anyway after hatching.
Any longer and they will start taking lumps out of each other.
I just use their size to gauge when to split them up.
Once they have got their back legs and are ready to get their fronts I put them back together until they leave the water.
Now I don`t want anyone trying to do it my way and then coming back later to say they lost half of their tads.
I have my reasons for doing it like I do and it works for me.
It doesn`t mean it`ll work for others.


Mike


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