# Mack1time's Dart frog viv in a bottle



## Natonstan (Aug 9, 2008)

YouTube - New Pet Alert

What's everyones views on this he just posted?


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

It does look quite funky. But there isnt adequate ventallation and probably too small anyway. and was i the only one waiting for the frog to jump into the toaster?:gasp: too dangerous.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

That is UNBELIEVABLY cruel. They need soooooooooo much more space


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## -Austin (Apr 25, 2009)

It may be temporary but this is cruelty.
Lack of ventilation, stagnant water and rotting crickets won't help the survival of this little guy:gasp:


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## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Trust it to be Americans!


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## jamesthornton (Nov 24, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Trust it to be Americans!


I love you.

And yeah! It's a nice idea, would look very cool, but it's just not gonna work.


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## drowning sorrows (May 3, 2009)

a couple of months! that poor little guys guna be sick


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

I was totally shocked at this!! omg poor frog! the 'bottle' is terrible and the handling of the frog well, what can you say???, I couldn't even watch the whole thing as it was just too horrid for words


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Trust it to be Americans!



he is canadian : victory:


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Barney_M said:


> he is canadian : victory:


I was just about to say the same thing as soon as i saw the video and heard him talk i knew he was canadian:lol2:


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm the first to admit I know nothing about keeping these but I thought they needed way more ventilation than that?? I was terrified for that poor little guy when he was handling it....it was clearly distressed and he just let it jump all over the place with a toaster right there :gasp: Points for effort on originality but that guy needs to read up on his pets, that jar was tiny


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## -Austin (Apr 25, 2009)

The handling was truly appauling:devil:


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

it was the poor little thing :<


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## Sylva (May 1, 2009)

OMG that was horrid!! Reminded me of this other moron who but a grey tree frog in a tiny box that look like a beanie babie display case :gasp::gasp::gasp:

I didn't watch the whole thing either, i can't stand seeing this. I hate to think about all the other animals (not just frogs) that get mistreated through ignorance. 

How would he like it if he was locked a tiny box with no fresh air for months, tempory or not this is sooo wrong!

:2wallbang:


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## Barney_M (Apr 2, 2008)

fact is i like mitch but he does kno a lo mroe about snakes i'll tell ya


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Was going to comment but they've been disabled.


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

I wonder why???


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

Wow you are all so cynical.

I never claimed to be a pro. I said I was a beginner.
I did my homework and maybe I read wrong but on most sites it was said to have a small 5 gallon for the first month or so. ....
Also most of the caresheets say they need little to no ventilation.....

Here is a direct excerpt from kingsnake.coms Caresheet

Housing for young dart frogs is best kept simple, especially for the first month or so that you have the frogs. It is very important for you to be able to monitor the frogs daily, and see that they are eating and appear healthy. Large enclosures (anything larger than a five gallon) are risky. Probably the best setup is a "shoebox", one of the plastic boxes made by Rubbermaid or the Sterilite company. I know many of you may be appalled at the idea of taking your beautiful frogs and putting them in a plastic box! Don't worry you wont be keeping them there for long..... One of the most common mistakes made is to give your frogs too much ventilation. Dart frogs do not need ventilation, at least not beyond opening the lid every couple of days. With this type of setup you can carefully monitor your frogs and make sure it is eating and settling into its new home. Although the humidity levels will remain high in this type of setup, your frogs will still enjoy an occasional misting every day or two, this can be accomplished by using a small inexpensive hand sprayer or if your budget allows, a fully automatic misting system.


Please note this is not the only place I read this either. Do you all think I want to torture and kill this animal?
Honestly? 
Look at the rest of my exotic animal collection.

Instead of all hating , how about some constructive criticism?
Are all the online caresheets wrong?
Maybe you should bitch at them for a bit?


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

Also it is a 60 pounder bottle which is roughly the size of a 5 gallon, the housing was temporary and he will soon have a better home.

He will thrive in my possession despite what you all think.
And come on we all had to learn somehow.


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

Direct Quote from
Amphibiancare.com >> Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobatidae) Care

Poison dart frogs need to be kept in an environment where the humidity level is very high. Most species do best when the humidity level in their terrarium is kept between 70% and 100%. To accomplish this, ventilation should be restricted *(some keepers do not provide any ventilation*) and the terrarium should be misted with water frequently, sometimes once or twice a day. When the humidity is kept at a low level or too much ventilation is offered, most species tend to be shy and stay hidden from view in the damp and moist areas of the terrarium in order to conserve moisture.


But I guess I'm just retarded right?


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

Another Quote From
Dart Den - Care Sheet - General Poison Dart


I recommend beginning with a simple, small enclosure. There are few guidelines for determining the number of frogs that can be successfully kept in any specific sized- tank. Some species mix better than others but I usually recommend 1 gallon of space per frog. For example, the auratus, leucomelas, galactonotus, and tricolor do well in groups while the tinctorius and azureus prefer small, social environments of 2-4 animals. Frogs cohabiting in groups fare better with ample hiding spaces and micro-territories, so make certain your terrarium provides hiding niches, such as, plant leaves, coconut huts, or driftwood. Also, make sure there is plenty of food. Frogs coexisting in groups require a plentiful food source since their nutritional needs increase due to higher baseline stress levels caused by having to compete for food. Observe your frogs to make certain that no one individual is being bullied to the extent that it becomes malnourished. If this occurs, remove the smaller frog from the terrarium and raise it individually until its weight increases. 

I recommend setting-up an inexpensive plastic Pal-Pen or shoebox-sized enclosure for the quarantine of new frogs or froglets. Large enclosures often interfere with effective observation and may actually prevent them from finding their food. Place about ½ inch of pea-gravel or leca balls in the container and cover with live moss, dried sheet moss or sphagnum moss. 

I read all these before I attempted to find a home for him, are they all wrong?


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

mack1time said:


> Direct Quote from
> Amphibiancare.com >> Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobatidae) Care
> 
> Poison dart frogs need to be kept in an environment where the humidity level is very high. Most species do best when the humidity level in their terrarium is kept between 70% and 100%. To accomplish this, ventilation should be restricted *(some keepers do not provide any ventilation*) and the terrarium should be misted with water frequently, sometimes once or twice a day. When the humidity is kept at a low level or too much ventilation is offered, most species tend to be shy and stay hidden from view in the damp and moist areas of the terrarium in order to conserve moisture.
> ...


Hopefully you'll get some constructive comments. Your lucky this wasn't a lizard or snake, seriously the people who post comments in the lizard and snake sub-forums here are way more vicious then these people.:lol2:

I think often different groups of people have different opinions on how creatures should be kept.


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## Darbz (Mar 22, 2009)

Mack1

I've not posted on this thread yet.

must admit I was pretty shocked. Fair enough if you are inexperienced...as you said we all have to start somewhere..but there are a plethera of care sheets available...and many forums, including this one have people who keep these frogs that could have given you better advice, it'd fairly irresponsible of you not to get as much info as you possibly can IMHO

Also, a Dart viv needs to be run for a few months to get it all running properly before darts should be introduced...why buy an animal until the set-up it's going into is ready?

I'm not having a go, as such. But I do think you were over-eagre and hugely misinformed, but we all learn from mistakes we make and I hope that your frog has a long and happy life with you when he has a more suitable set-up


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

The thing is I had done my homework.
I even looked today again and I had previously visited the top 12 results for dart frog caresheets.
I know as with most pets there are several methods so I read all 11 just to get a sense of it all. I also figured since mine was a Juvie he would fall under that category and require a smaller home till he was ready and as some of the caresheets mentioned this would allow him to find food easier.

I also read that natural vivs need time to setup and have had one in testing for the last few weeks. I knew this before I bought the animal.

I just think everyone is being a little harsh. If my frog was in that big of trouble and stress he would not be eating, this is not my first amphibian and I know what stagnant water and frogs can do and have been changing the entire water daily with Brita water.

I don't jump in people snake videos and make harsh comments, I offer advice or at the worst constructive criticism. We were all beginners at some point wether we like it or not.....


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## Darbz (Mar 22, 2009)

The thing is I had done my homework.
I even looked today again and I had previously visited the top 12 results for dart frog caresheets.
I know as with most pets there are several methods so I read all 11 just to get a sense of it all. I also figured since mine was a Juvie he would fall under that category and require a smaller home till he was ready and as some of the caresheets mentioned this would allow him to find food easier.

Well, that's fair enough...but, a bottle? Would it not have been better to buy a cheap plastic tank? Yes the bottle is a nice idea, but can you honestly say that you are doing what's in your pet's best interests?

And as for smashing the bottle to get him out? I'm hoping that was just an off the cuff comment or something..I'll assume it was and not go into it further.. 

I also read that natural vivs need time to setup and have had one in testing for the last few weeks. I knew this before I bought the animal.

Patience is a virtue, would it have been so hard to wait?

I just think everyone is being a little harsh. If my frog was in that big of trouble and stress he would not be eating, this is not my first amphibian and I know what stagnant water and frogs can do and have been changing the entire water daily with Brita water.

Yes I think some people have been a bit harsh

I don't jump in people snake videos and make harsh comments, I offer advice or at the worst constructive criticism. We were all beginners at some point wether we like it or not.....

We certainly have. And I hope you can learn from us why a bottle really isn't the best home for a dendro...
(edit: since you said you've got a viv in testing I'll assume that either you have, or will soon be taking your frog from the bottle anyway so ignore that last bit)


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm sorry but you kept a frog in a bottle.


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## steffy curtis (Mar 15, 2009)

how is it ment to breath???? i think its stupid :devil:


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

Hi, Mack1,

I still have to add that the handling of the frog in the video is still not for the frogs best interest. they get very easily stressed by inappropriate handling.
And I have to say, I agree with Darbz on the point of patience is a vitue, you say you've got another set up waiting?? I would have waited for it to be ready. I desperately want some more dendrobates auratus, but have to wait until my set up is ready for them! this won't be until october . I do think your intentions were correct, but your methods were wrong. I am sure you can appreciate that we only want whats best for your frog.
Yes, juvies can get stressed in a large set up and won't be able to find food as well as they can in a smaller set up. and yes they do need very humid conditions with little ventilation. but I honestly can't see how you can maintain the set up in a bottle?? correct me if i'm wrong, but moving the whole set up to 'clean out some stagnant water' is surely just going to cause stress on the frog? and it must be hard to plant it out and to keep the plants in tip top condition too??
On a general whole, the set up is interesting, but I was very shocked on the handling of the frog, I know I wouldn't let such a beautful and fragile creature almost fall into a toaster!
Also, I do agree with you on the point that we all have to start somewhere, this is true! and we do all make mistakes. but learning from them is what's important.
I do however wish you every success and best wishes on your amphibian keeping, and hope to see more pics of this little guy in his new set up (when it's ready of course)
Jenn xx


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## Snookers (Apr 16, 2009)

I know it's been said before but... 



Javeo said:


> Trust it to be Americans!


Actually, he's Canadian :naughty: Let's not start being racist please, I don't want to start a fight. :grouphug:


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

Believe me I have taken everything into consideration and perhaps I was a bit anxious.

Is it wrong that most keepers provide little to no ventilation as the live plants can recycle the oxygen?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

mack1time said:


> Believe me I have taken everything into consideration and perhaps I was a bit anxious.
> 
> Is it wrong that most keepers provide little to no ventilation as the live plants can recycle the oxygen?



I personally dont see anything wrong with giving little ventilation as long as the viv is opened once daily. However... this only applies where the animal has adequate space. I wouldnt keep a single dart frog in anything smaller than a 40cm cubed vivarium. In that space with doors opened daily - lack of ventilation does not matter in the slightest. Darts are very active frogs - a frog being kept in a bottle is the equivilant to a human being kept in a toilet cubicle their whole life. Personally, i just feel thats cruel.


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

It is very good, very good idea, one or two problems, ventilation and size, things will just rot away without ventilation, smashing the bottle shouldnt be too bad, a hammer and a small nail, gently tap the nail in and it should break nicely in half hopefully without cutting the frog.

Anyway yeah its too small not enough ventilation he should take it out and put in a exo terra or something


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

I dont hate mac1time but...



mack1time said:


> He will thrive in my possession despite what you all think.


...EPIC FAIL


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

Joe1507 said:


> It is very good, very good idea, one or two problems, ventilation and size, things will just rot away without ventilation, smashing the bottle shouldnt be too bad, a hammer and a small nail, gently tap the nail in and it should break nicely in half hopefully without cutting the frog.
> 
> Anyway yeah its too small not enough ventilation he should take it out and put in a exo terra or something


seriously?
i would say it was more a very very bad idea. you could say guantanamo bay was a very good idea if it wasnt for the torture and fact its a prision camp


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## Darbz (Mar 22, 2009)

Joe1507 said:


> It is very good, very good idea, one or two problems, ventilation and size, things will just rot away without ventilation, *smashing the bottle shouldnt be too bad, a hammer and a small nail, gently tap the nail in and it should break nicely in half hopefully without cutting the frog.*
> 
> Anyway yeah its too small not enough ventilation he should take it out and put in a exo terra or something


I hate to sound negative, but no. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Seriously..your going to have to coax him out of the top if possible...smashing the bottle would have disasterous conciquences IMO, for a start you'll scare the life out of him and he'll go flying off into the microwave or under the grill, cutting his leg off in the process, then you have a wounded dendro-toastie, blood everywhere and sharp bits of bottle to clean up....

Ok..maybe not quite so dramatic, but I still think it's a bad idea...


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## MARK.D (Oct 18, 2008)

Totally irresponsible.


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

I just ment its a good idea is all.
and yeah...
I forget what eles.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Joe1507 said:


> I just ment its a good idea is all.
> and yeah...
> I forget what eles.



It would ONLY be a good idea if the bottle was frankly HUGE. Darts get incredibly stressed by pretty much anything even slightly wrong in their environment - lack of space will be one of these. 

If that frog lives longer than a year, ill be amazed.

This whole thing makes me really, really upset ill be honest. Personally i consider it animal cruelty, and the fact that weve given the chap honest experienced views on the matter - he still wont put the frog in better setup.

I would make an ideal environment for the frog (yes, this costs money...) then leave the bottle open in the new tank with the opening angling down and hopefully the frog will be able to get out into the new tank.


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

I would agree with above, put the bottle in a bigger set up and lets hope froggy finds his way out.


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

Again I have a new enclosure people.
The video will be up this week, please let me know what you all think.
I will post a link here soon!


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

look forward to seeing it, pics please!!


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

RIP FROG
YouTube - RIP Frog


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

i'm sorry but I still think the enclosure is too small, but wish you the best of luck all the same. ps. the handling of the frog is still not great! wish you had worn gloves to help proctect the frogs skin from our natural oils on out skin. bet hey ho, you seem to know best! sorry to sound harsh, just my own personal opinion here.


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

it looks stunning but I'm afraid I agree that it's still a bit on the small side. Do you know what volume it is? I think (though am probably wrong) they need a minimum of 20 gallons. I agree that you may want to consider some gloves just in case your froggie absorbs something it shouldn't. It's a nice idea and I don't dispute that he looks healthy enough but as with most animals, bigger is better


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## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

Does no-one see the "TEMPORARY" posted up? O_O


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

the first viv was temp for a few weeks but I think the vid just posted up is froggies permenant home....if I'm wrong I promise to crawl away in shame :blush: :lol2:


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## mack1time (May 26, 2009)

Can't please everyone I guess.

Some posted on the video that it was too large.... lmao

The enclosure is 3.5 feet tall and 1.5 feet wide at its largest point.

You all need to get a life, seriously

There are pets that are way worse off then anything I have done.

Go save some dolphins, whales or abused dogs.
Maybe you will all feel better.

This is my last post here on this forum ever.


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

hey, just trying to help. I'd be a bit miffed if everyone jumped on me but if you're gonna post on a forum people are gonna post their opinions. I've been slagged off before (on another forum) but it helped me provide a better home for my pet as I had been savagely misinformed. I apologise, it did look too small but from what you say it's a lot bigger than it looks. If you're going to post on an animal lover's forum you gotta take what you get and it obviously helped cos you got him a bigger viv. Good luck anyway, you'll be seriously missing out though cos there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here


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## MARK.D (Oct 18, 2008)

Total cruelty.. 
Handling the frog like that. 
Its under weight (i thought you said it was eating fine)
Using a spot lamp. 
Be lucky if that frog lives much longer...


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## llamafish (Aug 19, 2008)

does kinda make me laugh how people keep hammering on about this thread, when other more productive thread come and go.... his been told, his ignored it, move on?


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