# BBC Inside Out – look at reptile shows



## Chris Newman

As many will be aware the BBC Inside Out programme filmed at the Doncaster IHS show back in September, the film will be shown on Monday the 12th of November on BBC 1 at 7:30pm. Inside Out is a regional programme and at this time it is no certain which areas will be showing the programme. However, the report will be available on BBC I Player from the Inside Out webpage:

BBC Inside Out


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## Ann W

will sky + this 

thanks for the update chris : victory:


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## Naturally Wild

What region is showing it?


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## Janine00

Naturally Wild said:


> What region is showing it?





Chris Newman said:


> As many will be aware the BBC Inside Out programme filmed at the Doncaster IHS show back in September, the film will be shown on Monday the 12th of November on BBC 1 at 7:30pm. Inside Out is a regional programme and at this time it is *not certain which areas will be showing the programme. However, the report will be available on BBC I Player from the Inside Out webpage:*
> 
> BBC Inside Out


:lol2:

Thanks for the heads up Chris... J


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## pk93

Thanks for the heads up, forgot about this.


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## Khonsu

Fingers crossed it gets a unbiased showing, not that I'm saying the BBC is biased or anything :gasp:


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## SCOTLANDUKBOA

thanks for the reminder, looked likes something of a "must watch",

linda :whistling2:


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## Dz75

What was the impression that people got the day of the show ? Did people feel that it went well ? Was there any incidents etc ?


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## galactico

Aimo said:


> Fingers crossed it gets a unbiased showing, not that I'm saying the BBC is biased or anything :gasp:


you dreaming if you think it will show a balanced opinion


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## weemanelite

Thanks Chris will certainly be interesting to see how we and our practices come across.
Very much appreciate all the time and hard work you, FBH and EUARK have been putting in to protect our hobby!


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## mstypical

*It's not being aired*

Chris, (and everyone) I commented on the Inside Out Facebook page to ask what regions would be shown this edition of Inside Out, and received a private message by the producer:

_"Hi Sherri,_
_Thanks for your post and query about a future edition of BBC Inside Out._
_One or two features have been moved around in our progamme planning so that particular feature is now unlikely to run on those dates._
_It may be held over till the next Inside Out series in January._
_I'll keep you posted about when it's likely to run as soon as I have more news._
_All the best_
_Sue
BBC Inside Out web producer"_


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## jlmp

Although this edition of Inside Out is going to be shown at a later date, they are running other reptile pieces on a few of their regional Inside Out programmes on 12/11/2012, available on BBC i Player and on Sky regional channels:

Sky 954 (BBC1 London) Monday 12th @ 7.30pm:
"Why are some cancer-stricken children being denied lifesaving treatment? *Plus lifting the lid on the hidden world of reptile traders*".

Sky 961 (BBC1 East [E]) Monday 12th @ 7.30pm:
"David Whiteley investigates how a man accused of murdering a Northamptonshire family avoided capture, and *visits the animal shows that campaigners want shut down*."

Sky 963 (BBC1 S East) Monday 12th @ 7.30pm:
"A report on the Brighton woman who helped change the law on stalking. Plus, how prolonged bad weather has affected the South East's wine industry, and *the campaign to ban reptiles as pets*."


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## 5plusmany

Oh dear, those descriptions don't sound very 'impartial' do they?


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## manganr

It was never going to be impartial. That's the nature of journalism.

A show investigating decent people who care for their pets makes crap TV.

The truth is that reptile shows/markets DO have more than their fair share of people willing to sell a snake to anyone with the money.

You only have to browse the forum to see teenagers who consider themselves responsible enough to own Retics but are not reponsible enough to do their own washing or even keep their bedrooms tidy!

The APA had this victory handed to them on a plate.


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## blood and guts

We dont need antis and the like with a lot of whats going on, morphs with issues still being bred, standards of caging getting smaller, trading card style collecting, dodgy deals and a major lack of due diligence when selling are all every day problems. 
If reptile keeping gets banned one day dont blame the antis and co, its the fault of our own ranks!
As for the bbc, the recent scandals and there political and animal reporting in the past and present show they are not to be trusted..


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## mstypical

It's not good news guys... the producer just e-mailed me this

BBC News - Reptile traders under scrutiny from animal campaigners


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## Mynki

mstypical said:


> It's not good news guys... the producer just e-mailed me this
> 
> BBC News - Reptile traders under scrutiny from animal campaigners


It's been online since at least 9.30 this morning. It's been discussed on the 'other forum' where people seem to have a much more positive outlook on it. 

Unless of course more will be shown than the 3 minutes and seven seconds of this clip?


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## Chris Newman

Mynki said:


> It's been online since at least 9.30 this morning. It's been discussed on the 'other forum' where people seem to have a much more positive outlook on it.
> 
> Unless of course more will be shown than the 3 minutes and seven seconds of this clip?


What has been shown is a trailer, we need to wait and see the whole piece at 7:30 before we can really evaluate it properly.


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## GuardianReptileCourier

gotto be a dodgy game with a few of the faces i just saw on there!!!!
hahahaaha


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## mstypical

Chris Newman said:


> What has been shown is a trailer, we need to wait and see the whole piece at 7:30 before we can really evaluate it properly.


Mr Warwick likened keeping reptiles to sticking a puppy in a viv and leaving it screaming, barking and crying all day every day. That's bad enough.


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## BSL

it dose not look good for us but at least it showed all the animals were in good health and clean and looked afder, so they can`t say what was at the showe was crap every thing looked well organized to me.


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## MP reptiles

has anybody got a link for this on the iplayer, for my tv it said the inside out on bbc London tonight was on cancer i think and i couldn't find anything about reptiles!


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## hogboy

BBC iPlayer - Watch Live - BBC One

@ 19.50


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## MP reptiles

hogboy said:


> BBC iPlayer - Watch Live - BBC One
> 
> @ 19.50


Thankyou! it is still about cancer for me not reptiles? never mind just realised its after it


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## mstypical

Chris! You're a sneaky one - I thought you said you were no good at speaking on camera? I thought you did very well :2thumb:


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## Tarron

I thought that went very well. The BBC were very unbiased, which is only fair, Chris, Tim Wass and all the keepers showed the hobby in a brilliant light, and in my opinion, Warwick and tolland made themselves look like bumbling idiots.

Well done everyone, and I certainly hope those who were having a go at Chris back in September are having a big fat slice of humble pie. 

Good work


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## weemanelite

Tarron said:


> I thought that went very well. The BBC were very unbiased, which is only fair, Chris, Tim Wass and all the keepers showed the hobby in a brilliant light, and in my opinion, Warwick and tolland made themselves look like bumbling idiots.
> 
> Well done everyone, and I certainly hope those who were having a go at Chris back in September are having a big fat slice of humble pie.
> 
> Good work


Second that, Well Done Chris and all representatives of our hobby, a fair and unbiased review showing the caring and considerate keepers that we are! Although have to say can't really see how Warwick can compare a dog in a viv to a snake.


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## 9Red

I haven't yet seen the program but have seen the clip on the bbc website. 

Warwick may not sound like he knows much about his subject but it would seem he has a fairly robust background in animal welfare - Clifford Warwick - United Kingdom | LinkedIn

Let's hope that is the limit of his involvement.

Edit: And yet it seems someone else has been looking at this guys background and makes some very good points about his 'credentials' - http://pjboosinger.jigsy.com/entries/general/clifford-warwick-expert-or-b-bs-d


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## 9Red

Ah... APA - always so predictable....

Animal Aid: MINI-BIOGRAPHY Clifford Warwick CBiol FIBiol MIBI


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## Janine00

Good job done by Richard Brook & IHS, Chris, Tim, and all those that allowed the BBC to film and show this on TV.... : victory: Many thanks to you all ! :2thumb:

Home goal scored by ET & CW.... :lol2: 'nuff said!


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## Graham

9Red said:


> I haven't yet seen the program but have seen the clip on the bbc website.
> 
> Warwick may not sound like he knows much about his subject but it would seem he has a fairly robust background in animal welfare - Clifford Warwick - United Kingdom | LinkedIn
> 
> Let's hope that is the limit of his involvement.
> 
> Edit: And yet it seems someone else has been looking at this guys background and makes some very good points about his 'credentials' - Clifford Warwick, Expert or B.Bs.D.? | PJBoosinger


His bogus credentials are well known and much talked about on this forum, just do a search on his name and you'll find loads of threads about him, and exactly what those letters after his name do, or don't mean!


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## Chris Newman

Well, have just watched the programme it’s available on the Inside Out website for the next week if anyone missed it: BBC Inside Out East, the piece on shows starts 11 minuets into the programme.

I have to say I think that was a very fair and balanced look at the issue of reptile shows, it looked at the issue and gave both sides of the argument a fair hearing. We should applaud the BBC for there impartiality, it could have been sensationalised but wasn’t. I am very content, of course from our side it could have been better they could have investigated Clifford’s claim to be a “scientist” or exposed some of the false claims made by Elaine, perhaps that’s a separate programme who knows! 

I was interested to see Clifford referred to as an “ex reptile breeders”? I have never heard him referred to as this before, keepers yes, breeder no! The reality is Clifford is an ex reptile dealer, he operated back in the early to mid 1970’s from his parent’s home. I still have some of his pricelists, incidentally anyone have any copies of Exchange & Mart from 1975/6? - they would be very revealing! He gave up dealing/keeping around 1976, unsurprising really as he had absolutely no idea how to look after reptiles, he couldn’t keep anything alive, apart from snake mites! I am quite certain its his own frustration at not being able to keep something alive that turned him into a ‘anti’ – “if I can’t do it know one can” mentality!! It is a pity that Clifford ultimately declined to do an interview alongside me; it would have been very interesting I am sure, next time perhaps!

I am very pleased that Elaine came out and made the statements she did about wanting to ban everything and working through the European Parliament, people need to take note of that! Here in the UK the argument to ban the keeping of reptiles on welfare grounds has been fort and won, that is not the case in the rest of Europe, and we should not be oblivious to that fact that EU legislation and override UK legislation! This is a battle that still has to be fort and complacency on our part would be unwise!

My only slight criticism of the programme is when Elaine was banging on about the 1983 amendment [Section 2] to the Pet Animals Act is they did not say to her “but you are aware this has been set for repeal by the Animal Welfare Act” – I would just love to have seen her face, I’m sure it would have been priceless? The fact she is still so desperately trying to cling onto this to argue her case is, well an act of sheer desperation. 

All in all I think the programme was fair, balance and impartial, now let’s take fight to the next level and finish this argument once and for all. We need to push the government to complete the repeal of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act so shows can be licensed and the “cash cow” being milked by Elaine & Clifford can finally be put to rest once and for all!


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## Blake1990

Chris Newman said:


> Well, have just watched the programme it’s available on the Inside Out website for the next week if anyone missed it: BBC Inside Out East, the piece on shows starts 11 minuets into the programme.
> 
> I have to say I think that was a very fair and balanced look at the issue of reptile shows, it looked at the issue and gave both sides of the argument a fair hearing. We should applaud the BBC for there impartiality, it could have been sensationalised but wasn’t. I am very content, of course from our side it could have been better they could have investigated Clifford’s claim to be a “scientist” or exposed some of the false claims made by Elaine, perhaps that’s a separate programme who knows!
> 
> I was interested to see Clifford referred to as an “ex reptile breeders”? I have never heard him referred to as this before, keepers yes, breeder no! The reality is Clifford is an ex reptile dealer, he operated back in the early to mid 1970’s from his parent’s home. I still have some of his pricelists, incidentally anyone have any copies of Exchange & Mart from 1975/6? - they would be very revealing! He gave up dealing/keeping around 1976, unsurprising really as he had absolutely no idea how to look after reptiles, he couldn’t keep anything alive, apart from snake mites! I am quite certain its his own frustration at not being able to keep something alive that turned him into a ‘anti’ – “if I can’t do it know one can” mentality!! It is a pity that Clifford ultimately declined to do an interview alongside me; it would have been very interesting I am sure, next time perhaps!
> 
> I am very pleased that Elaine came out and made the statements she did about wanting to ban everything and working through the European Parliament, people need to take note of that! Here in the UK the argument to ban the keeping of reptiles on welfare grounds has been fort and won, that is not the case in the rest of Europe, and we should not be oblivious to that fact that EU legislation and override UK legislation! This is a battle that still has to be fort and complacency on our part would be unwise!
> 
> My only slight criticism of the programme is when Elaine was banging on about the 1983 amendment [Section 2] to the Pet Animals Act is they did not say to her “but you are aware this has been set for repeal by the Animal Welfare Act” – I would just love to have seen her face, I’m sure it would have been priceless? The fact she is still so desperately trying to cling onto this to argue her case is, well an act of sheer desperation.
> 
> All in all I think the programme was fair, balance and impartial, now let’s take fight to the next level and finish this argument once and for all. We need to push the government to complete the repeal of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act so shows can be licensed and the “cash cow” being milked by Elaine & Clifford can finally be put to rest once and for all!


Well done Chris, it was great to see you putting your point across on national TV!

Keep it up, you seem to have the upperhand over them nutters now, everytime we clash we seem to come out on top and I believe that is down to you and the FBH.


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## weemanelite

Chris Newman said:


> Well, have just watched the programme it’s available on the Inside Out website for the next week if anyone missed it: BBC Inside Out East, the piece on shows starts 11 minuets into the programme.
> 
> I have to say I think that was a very fair and balanced look at the issue of reptile shows, it looked at the issue and gave both sides of the argument a fair hearing. We should applaud the BBC for there impartiality, it could have been sensationalised but wasn’t. I am very content, of course from our side it could have been better they could have investigated Clifford’s claim to be a “scientist” or exposed some of the false claims made by Elaine, perhaps that’s a separate programme who knows!
> 
> I was interested to see Clifford referred to as an “ex reptile breeders”? I have never heard him referred to as this before, keepers yes, breeder no! The reality is Clifford is an ex reptile dealer, he operated back in the early to mid 1970’s from his parent’s home. I still have some of his pricelists, incidentally anyone have any copies of Exchange & Mart from 1975/6? - they would be very revealing! He gave up dealing/keeping around 1976, unsurprising really as he had absolutely no idea how to look after reptiles, he couldn’t keep anything alive, apart from snake mites! I am quite certain its his own frustration at not being able to keep something alive that turned him into a ‘anti’ – “if I can’t do it know one can” mentality!! It is a pity that Clifford ultimately declined to do an interview alongside me; it would have been very interesting I am sure, next time perhaps!
> 
> I am very pleased that Elaine came out and made the statements she did about wanting to ban everything and working through the European Parliament, people need to take note of that! Here in the UK the argument to ban the keeping of reptiles on welfare grounds has been fort and won, that is not the case in the rest of Europe, and we should not be oblivious to that fact that EU legislation and override UK legislation! This is a battle that still has to be fort and complacency on our part would be unwise!
> 
> My only slight criticism of the programme is when Elaine was banging on about the 1983 amendment [Section 2] to the Pet Animals Act is they did not say to her “but you are aware this has been set for repeal by the Animal Welfare Act” – I would just love to have seen her face, I’m sure it would have been priceless? The fact she is still so desperately trying to cling onto this to argue her case is, well an act of sheer desperation.
> 
> All in all I think the programme was fair, balance and impartial, now let’s take fight to the next level and finish this argument once and for all. We need to push the government to complete the repeal of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act so shows can be licensed and the “cash cow” being milked by Elaine & Clifford can finally be put to rest once and for all!


Chris, 

What if anything can we as hobbyists, Breeders et al do to assist in the conclusion of this battle, other than continue to support you and people of FBH, EUARK and IHS?

Is there a letter we can write or a petition we can sign to show the support we have for our Hobby. Being a fairly new keeper, couple of years now, I am keen to continue keeping my pets and would to show my support in any way I can. 

If there is something I can do please let me know and as I am sure there are others that would do the same to help in the fight.

Until then hats off to you and your team.


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## Ony

I just saw this on inside out London. I was just thinking how nicely balanced the program was, letting both sides have their say and showing how open the hobby is. Then as a parting message at the end of the show the presenter said he wouldn't keep 'cold-blooded, creepy crawlie, scaly things' as pets. Nice!


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## Vaponaboy

Just watched it .. Not good


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## Uromastyxman

I just saw the inside out programme and I would like to say that the Doncaster show looked professional and well ordered, showing reptile enthusiasts in a good light. The breeders came across well on camera. Tim Wass was very professional and came across as friendly and efficient. Chris Newman also came across very well on camera as well balanced, passionate and knowledgable. This was all brilliant. Well done everyone!

I will also say that the BBC were pretty well balanced and impartial.

Finally I would like to say that Clifford Warwick and Elaine Toland really came over badly. They seemed like a pair of unhappy, unintelligent do-gooders with nothing else to do with their lives. What a pair of mediocre wazzocks they are. Let's hope they appear on tv again soon because they're going to destroy their credibility before we get a chance to. 

Tip top:2thumb:


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## Tarron

Uromastyxman said:


> I just saw the inside out programme and I would like to say that the Doncaster show looked professional and well ordered, showing reptile enthusiasts in a good light. The breeders came across well on camera. Tim Wass was very professional and came across as friendly and efficient. Chris Newman also came across very well on camera as well balanced, passionate and knowledgable. This was all brilliant. Well done everyone!
> 
> I will also say that the BBC were pretty well balanced and impartial.
> 
> Finally I would like to say that Clifford Warwick and Elaine Toland really came over badly. They seemed like a pair of unhappy, unintelligent do-gooders with nothing else to do with their lives. What a pair of mediocre wazzocks they are. Let's hope they appear on tv again soon because they're going to destroy their credibility before we get a chance to.
> 
> Tip top:2thumb:


Bearing in mind everyone's comments so far,

I would like a to say a big, huge thank you to Elaine Tolland and Clifford Warwick for their involvement in the BBC Inside Out program. Not only was it down to them that the BBC managed to show the reptile keeping hobby in a brilliant light, but they managed to ruin their own credibility by an incredible amount.

So thank you both, possibly the best bit of publicity we have had in a long time.

:2thumb:


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## Uromastyxman

Tarron said:


> Bearing in mind everyone's comments so far,
> 
> I would like a to say a big, huge thank you to Elaine Tolland and Clifford Warwick for their involvement in the BBC Inside Out program. Not only was it down to them that the BBC managed to show the reptile keeping hobby in a brilliant light, but they managed to ruin their own credibility by an incredible amount.
> 
> So thank you both, possibly the best bit of publicity we have had in a long time.
> 
> :2thumb:


Mate, they looked like a pair of banal chubby frogs! What a victory for the collective reptile community. I'm so happy that I'll buy you two pints when we meet instead of one. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha this was brilliant! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I'm laughing out loud now as I type this Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. The only thing we have to worry about with those two is that they might eat all the crisps and explode at the next show. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :2thumb:


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## Tarron

Uromastyxman said:


> Mate, they looked like a pair of banal chubby frogs! What a victory for the collective reptile community. I'm so happy that I'll buy you two pints when we meet instead of one. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha this was brilliant! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I'm laughing out loud now as I type this Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. The only thing we have to worry about with those two is that they might eat all the crisps and explode at the next show. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :2thumb:


Just wish I could attend Donny on Sunday, I imagine it will be a great, high spirited occasion with an awesome atmosphere. 

Incase people miss my thread, Tim wass is holding a debate on linked in from 9pm to discuss things from the show and the APA fb page.


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## Fionab

kudos to the BBC for a well balanced fair and unbiased show, whilst it could have been better( couldnt everything) I dont think it has done anything to have a negative impact on the hobby and i think thats what most people where worried about.


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## Geckogirl_88

I've added the following comment on the APA's facebook site.
Hopefully it will be considered respectfully rather than dismissed or deleated.
Anyways, here are my thoughts on the matter 


"It should be brought to the APA's attention, the concerns the organisation has about the ill treatment of reptiles is (is some cases) mirrored by the attitudes of the thousands of responsible reptile keepers in the UK. The issue appears to stem from the APA's call for a blanket ban rather than tougher punishments for those who are mis-treating their animals. The above statement reveals the APA's commitment to "ceasing the trade of wildlife for pets". I agree that this is a commendable aim, however, none of my pets, be they reptile, mammal, fish or bird, have ever been 'wildlife'. They have never lived in the wild nor would they survive in the wild, and for this reason I do not believe that they can justifiably be classed as wildlife. After all, domestic animals such as dogs, cats and budgies once stemmed from wild stock. After generations of breeding these animals have evolved to become very different indeed from their wild ancestors. In much the same way, many reptile species have also evolved, encorporating the skills they need to survive in captivity into their new schema for life. For this reason, I do not believe that a blanket ban on the keeping of reptiles as pets is the way forward"


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## Fionab

thing is tho they havent evolved at all, it has taken thousands of years of captivity to domesticate cats and to "make" the dogs we have now.....

what the APA havent considered i dont think is if they ban the keeping of reptiles, WHERE are the reptiles going to go???? are they advocating having them euthanised? cos i dont see their arguement about that


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## kato

How big would a Vivarium have to be to house a dog? Relevant to it's size and needs so that it is not treated poorly.

Some of the worst and most pathetic arguments from Clifford and Elaine there. Chris I would quite happily stand in Court and represent the Reptile Community against either of those two - at least I know that I would not lose.:whistling2:


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## scotty667

Keeping a dog in a viv ? having a dog in your house or flat all day long is basically it's enclosure itself anyway how does that dog get exercise by us walking them how does your reptile get exercise by us getting them out of course they got the rest of their space in their viv/flat/house :/ i'd say that was just stupid comparing a dog or cat .


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## Uromastyxman

Warwick and Toland are a pair of bumbling fannybaps who do this to give themselves some Kudos and worth. If they were not trying to stop people keeping animals they would be unknown bumbling fannybaps shuffling around tesco in their slippers. 

:2thumb:


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## truncheon1973

theres almost no mention of it on there facebook page now

most of it has been replaced by a story about wild foreign rat snakes living and breeding in london!! note that they said foreign snake in uk- i wonder where theyre going with that!!

the pic does look like they have placed a snake there lol


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## sn8ks4life

Uromastyxman said:


> Warwick and Toland are a pair of bumbling fannybaps who do this to give themselves some Kudos and worth. If they were not trying to stop people keeping animals they would be unknown bumbling fannybaps shuffling around tesco in their slippers.
> 
> :2thumb:


aye men!!

i cant stand those two, they do bring up some stupid things aye, atleast the RSPCA man was good about it, they finally did something right :lol2:


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## Nikkifer

Uromastyxman said:


> Warwick and Toland are a pair of bumbling fannybaps who do this to give themselves some Kudos and worth. If they were not trying to stop people keeping animals they would be unknown bumbling fannybaps shuffling around tesco in their slippers.
> 
> :2thumb:


bumbling fannybaps has got to be the greatest insult I have ever heard :lol2:


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## Geckogirl_88

Surprise surprise, they've deleated my post.
I'm quite anoyed actually.

I spent 20mins constructing a relevant and non-agressive argument, inviting discussion. At no point did I accuse or dismiss them of anything.

My post has been replace with a list of names with several degrees after them, basically as a "so-there".
If I wanted to enter into those kind of petty targets I could have listed some degrees of my own, not least added a few "so-there" comments.

It's entirely immature, and coming from a large orginisation I found it offensive and juvenile.

So-there!

x


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## Mynki

Historicaly APA have always deleted posts and then banned accounts of those they identify as pro rep keeping. I think this has been a deliberate attempt on their part to encourage people to post so they can ban more accounts to stop further abuse knowing they're will be increased interest on the FB page. 

The rep keepers have contributed lots to the number of 'likes' on their page.


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## Mal

Ive only had fleeting visits to the computer in the last few days. I would like to add my belated thanks to Chris and Tim for their excellent contribution to the Inside Out programme. 

There are numerous threads running in the various sections of the forum relating to the programme, Mr Warwick and Mrs Toland. I have mentioned this elsewhere but will mention it again here. Would it be worth compiling a dossier relating to the questionable credentials, the misrepresentation, the dubious activities of the APA and the questionable status of the Emergent Disease Foundation to the editorial team of the Inside Out programme. It would provide them with very interesting follow up material. Having looked at the Emergent Disease Foundation website and seen Mr Warwick in cahoots with a certain vet by the name of Mr Jessop, photographic material courtesy of PETA it makes me wonder if the organisation is truly entitled to its 'registered charity' status. Is it time to hurl the antis bs back at them ?


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## clumsyoaf

I watched it too the other night and couldn't help thinking that a hamster or gerbil is akin in size to a gecko compared to a dog (as far as I remember - not been into cute furries since I was about 10) and people do keep them in cages MUCH smaller than most gecko homes, I'm sure my hamster cage was at least half the size of my viv for my leo...

I found it kind of sad the arguements they were bringing up and I'm sure that compared to the neglect and abuse so many dogs face many reptiles are in far better hands! I would expect that there are proportionately more dogs cats and other "normal pets" that are abused and mistreated than reptiles, because they are exotic I would imagine most people would do more research before purchasing an exotic pet than, for example, a rabbit. Obviously I have not researched this, it is just an assumption based on my friends and their pets, plus working at the Swan Sanctuary in Egham for 2 years when I was younger!


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## AuntyLizard

Just watched this on iplayer.. I have to say that I thought the Reptile world came over in a very positive way.. It's the other idiots from APA that seemed to be paper thin on their arguments.

Since being ill and giving up most of our Reptile collection and breeding I will tell you that our electricity bill has gone down by £50 a month and my animal food bill is down from over £100 a month to about £36... In hatching season I could be spending anything up to £175 a month on food and electricity would go up by £15 a month. It is not a cheap hobby add into that mix the UV lighting, viv, heat mats etc if your a hobbyist it is an expensive hobby and selling your surplus breeding stock just helps you pay for it. 

Well done Chris and believe it or not the RSPCA officer they interviewed.

Liz x


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## ian14

truncheon1973 said:


> theres almost no mention of it on there facebook page now
> 
> most of it has been replaced by a story about wild foreign rat snakes living and breeding in london!! note that they said foreign snake in uk- i wonder where theyre going with that!!
> 
> the pic does look like they have placed a snake there lol


Actually this is correct. This is one of two sites in the UK where Aesculapian snakes have become established as a breeding population. So what has been said is true - they are foreign as they are not native to the UK, they are rat snakes, and they are breeding.


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## MCEE

I think the whole build up to this program was a bit of a storm in a teacup. The BBC did a good impartiality job but it really was a non-story. Us reptile hobbyists have a hobby and enjoy keeping our animals, for whatever reasons, and the antis do not like us reptile keeprs keeping these animals, for whatever reasons. End of story, as the BBC portrayed it. And a big "so what".

A more interesting story would have been to investigate the credibility and reliability of experts and the evidence they offered. However, I feel that the BBC would have been too afraid to open up such a can of worms for a ten minute report for fear that the results would have been a little one sided. As it was, Warwick and Toland both showed themselves up as bumbling fools. Even the non reptile keeping, layperson, could see right through the weakness of their arguments and that they were clutching at straws to try and discredit the hobby. Whereas, the the pro hobby contribution showed that there was no agenda to try and prove anything other than this is our hobby and this is what we do, take it or leave it. This came across as genuine and the aforesaid layperson would surely see that there was nothing to hide.

Now that the ice has been broken, is it not time that these APA scalliwags were brought down a peg or two? Because, unless something is done to discredit them they will continue to poke away at us, infinitum. Just like an annoyng mosquito, they need to be squashed once and for all, if for no other reason than to let us get on with our hobby in peace without fear of being pestered at every turn.


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