# rats...questions, questions questions.



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

This is for Lisa and Kathy and anyone else who knows about genetics.
I don't know if you will be able to help with my questions.

I like to 'make' my varieties rather than just going to some other breeder and having their lines.

I have russian blues(true), russian blues from outcrossed litters so carrying other genes, agoutis, DPP( I believe he is also essex), british blue, powder blue, blacks(carrying RB and BB), Agouti's(carrying RB), blacks (carrying BB), mock mink and a silver fawn.

I also have russian blue agouti's that I 'made' myself and one that may be some other variety similar to russian blue agouti as it came from a litter of RBA's but is lighter and looks/sounds like two varieties that I've read about.

I'm interested in making other varieties.
What varieties could be made from the 'concoction' I have???

Any ideas however difficult I'm interested in and don't mind it taking a few generations/years to do.
I like a challenge and I'm in no hurry to get to the goal I am aiming for.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

LOL you need a ratty recipe book


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I would love to see your DPP essex, I breed essex here and haven't seen one. 

Obviously if he is essex, you can make more essex. Putting him to unmarked does will make a mixture of essex and unmarked, as essex is a lethal dominant gene. So is pearl, but pearl only works on mink based rats (so mink + pearl = pearl, mock mink + pearl = mock mink pearl, cinnamon + pearl = cinnamon pearl, dove + pearl = russian pearl, russian cinnamon + pearl = russian cinnamon pearl). Pearl to pearl or essex to essex will make smaller litters as you already know. Essex to marked rats is something I'm working on too, particularly Essex capped (currently standardised as "Baldie"). Working with other markings plus the Essex is a complicated game and not without risk at the moment from what I have experienced and read. 

What your rats will make colour wise is dependent on what they are but also what they carry (I feel like I'm probably teaching my granny to suck eggs here so disregard as necessary and no patronisation intended!). 

For example, an agouti rat to a silver fawn rat, neither of which carry anything else, would make a whole litter of agouti rats that carry the PE gene (which makes silver fawn and champagne). However, if the agouti already carries PE, you're going to get silver fawn and agouti. To get champagne, both parents would need to carry "self" (ie. non-agouti). Then you have other carried genes to consider, if both carry mink you may get cinnamons, if both carry russian then russian blue agouti, etc etc.

It's impossible to say what your rats will make without looking at their individual heritage. If you have any specific pairings in mind, or colours you want to aim for, it might help?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

You've got me thinking about possible combinations lol. Think you've got the possibilities for platinum, russian silver, and possibly some other un-recognised combinations (lavender, lilac?). These varieties are not without problems though and I would really recommend talking to breeders who are working on their health. Off the top of my head Lisa Grove of Halcyon Stud is the lady to ask about platinums, and Laura/Zoundz of Bongo Fury is the one to ask about Russian Silver. Ann Storey is good for both and for the unrecognised ones - she's great for breeding advice and I find her very easy to talk to compared to many.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I'll sort pics of hte DPP when he was a baby.
I was told at the time they were essex!
They are the only essex I ever had so I know nothing about the gene at all.

I forgot I also have cinnamon rats.

My agouti carry PE about 4-5 generations back. Depending on which agouti I would use as all my agouti's are related. I have back to great grandmother.

I managed to breed my own russian blue agouti from my initial mating between my russian blue buck and one of my agouti does. 

I have no dove so how would I make a dove to then go on to make russian pearl?
Same with russian cinnamon..I've never even heard of that one.

I'll go hnt the pics of the DPP essex..if they are.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Dove = russian + mink + self.
Dove agouti/russian cinnamon = russian + mink + agouti 

Cinnamons are mink + agouti, so would go towards breeding russian cinns with the addition of russian from the russian blues or agoutis that carry russian? 

If you put a cinnamon to an agouti that carries russian, it would depend on whether the agouti was also carrying mink (eg. had a cinn or mink parent, could be further back but then it wouldn't be guaranteed). If the agouti carries russian and mink, you would get agoutis and cinnamons carrying russian. If the cinnamon also carries russian, you could also get russian cinnamons in that case. 

If the agouti _doesn't_ carry mink you would get agoutis carrying mink and half of them would carry russian. If the cinnamon also carries russian, you would get agoutis and russian blue agoutis all carrying mink (and the agoutis carrying russian), so a brother sister mating could in theory make russian cinnamon. 

It sounds more complicated than it is, this kind of thing still scares me when people put in the letters (you know what I mean - Aammbb etc etc), so I try to avoid them!


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Dove = russian + mink + self.
> Dove agouti/russian cinnamon = russian + mink + agouti
> 
> Cinnamons are mink + agouti, so would go towards breeding russian cinns with the addition of russian from the russian blues or agoutis that carry russian?
> ...


Yes I understand the 'colours' a lot easier than the genetic makeup 'letters'. They scare the crap out of me.

I would think, I'm not sure, that the agouti's carrying both RB and BB, would also therefore carry mink as the BB are from lines with Plat so they are the same lines my mink have popped up in. 
So, in theory, I could use one of the agouit does( carrying both RB and BB) with my cinnie buck and 'possibly' get russian cinnamon?
My cinnamon do not carry russian as far as I know.
Then I could just put a cinnie doe to one of my lovely russian blue bucks for the same effect?

It sounds the easiest way to make russian cinnamon is to put the russian blue to the cinnamon.
I could effectively try all three matings as I have the cinnamon, not carrying russian, the russian blues, agouti carrying russian and agouti carrying both russian and mink.

Could you explain the Dove for me though. ....russian + mink + self!!!!
I think I'm being thick here.
I have russian blue self would that be both the russian and the self in the above mix or do I need something else?

Here's the pics of the litter of DPP that I was told were essex when they were born. 


















Chin pic.










I'll get a pic of Lionel as he is now as an old man tomorrow.


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## Jacs (Jun 7, 2009)

wow... i never realised there were so many kinds of rats... hehe, will ahve 2 think a bit harder when i eventually get one ^_^ at least i know the palce to come!!


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Aw cute baby i have DPP hoodies here they just randomly pop in my mink hoods and selfs.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If your cinnie doesn't carry russian, you shouldn't get russian cinnamon. Russian blue is recessive, therefore both parents would have to carry it (or be it) for babies to be russian based.

However, I'm not really good with agouti varieties (or genetics of anything other than what I breed, and even then I'm a real novice!), so that's one for others to confirm :blush:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ps. Dove is russian blue + (english) mink. There is no "+ self" as both are self. So technically, a dove is a self rat affected by both the mink and russian blue genes. So to make doves, you'd need either minks carrying russian blue, or russian blues carrying mink. Or one of each. Or self rats (eg black) carrying both.

Your best bet is to find lines that dont carry tonnes of different things though - otherwise you'll find it really hard to predict what'll pop up. BB and RB in the same line could throw out a load of odd misfits like lavender and lilac depending on what else the lines carry (eg chocolate, mink etc) and you'd be hard pushed to tell one variety apart from another - and there your breeding plans could get more and more complicated. It just takes one mis-identified rat to screw up your plans - keep it simple and things shouldn't get too problematic.

This is coming from the person who had it all thought out and found out when her litters pearled that her mink was a DPP :lol2:


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

The pics you posted are definitely an Essex saxon : victory:. Essex is easy to create more of - it is dominant. So put it to anything and you'll get more essex's - of course the colours depend on what you're putting it to and what they carry.



> So, in theory, I could use one of the agouit does( carrying both RB and BB) with my cinnie buck and 'possibly' get russian cinnamon?


Only if the cinnie buck in question also carried russian - remember russian is recessive, so needs to be present on both mum and dads side for babies to get the gene. 



> It sounds the easiest way to make russian cinnamon is to put the russian blue to the cinnamon.


Yes, again none will show in the F1 if the cinnamon doesn't carry russian, though. In my opinion the easiest way for you to initially create some, is probably doing russian blue X cinnamon. In normal cases these babies will then be either Black and Agoutis or all Agoutis carrying russian blue and mink...cross two of these siblings together (preferably a black X agouti if you want a chance at Dove) and you then have the potential for dove and russian cinnamon in the same litter. Dove is just the non-agouti version of russian cinnamon :whistling2:




> Could you explain the Dove for me though. ....russian + mink + self!!!!
> I think I'm being thick here.
> I have russian blue self would that be both the russian and the self in the above mix or do I need something else?


As Lisa said, Dove is just Russian Blue + Mink...I think KathyM stated the self because the moment you add Agouti in, the rat is then a Russian Cinnamon.

Hope that helps...


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Yep I put the "+ self" (as in non-agouti) in because the rats involved were agouti based, so at that point you need them to carry self or be it, so it had to be part of the equation. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

The baby you posted _might_ be an Essex, but also could be a berkshire (it's hard to tell with him being such a pale variety) - what were his parents? Might be easier to tell on them?


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Firstly the little pic. His parents were identical to him. I had no knowledge of the double lethal at that time and bred them together getting only litters of 5-6 due to reabsorbtion. He was bredin that manner, by the person I gothis parnets from, for at least 5 generations. So, if essex, they are DPP essex for at least 5 generations.

On the other variety.

My cinnamon do not carry russian so using them I'd have to breed my RB to a cinnie, then the siblings back to each other. As the line is totally unrelated I see no problem with this. I'd, hopefully, get what I wanted in the F2 litters. Which is what I thought I wold need to do but really wanted to get others opinions.

Lisa,

I don't have english mink unless the DPP are from english mink and I could get english mink from that mating. So if it has to be english mink I don't think I could make dove then!

My russian blues, providing I use the 'true' RB's carry nothing else. The agouti's, again depending on which I use, carry PE(3 generations back), younger ones carry russian and two carry RB and BB.
I would plan to use the russian based agouti's if I werent' using the cinnamons.
As I say I could try the short route and the longer route to see which turned out better.

I dont' mind the odd 'oddball', lavender/lilac, popping up though in litters if I can make english mink.

I think I'm going to be concentrating on my russian blue agoutis', then try making russian cinnamon and maybe later try with some of the more difficult varieties.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

If you have a cinnamon, that's basically an agouti with two mink genes, so you do have mink, just in an agouti based rat. If you mated the russian blue to the cinn, you'd get agoutis (and possibly blacks if the cinn has a self parent) carrying russian, mink and self. If you mated brother to sister, you'd get (potentially) some doves and russian cinns. 

I think that's right, my head hurts.....:lol2:


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

On my monitor I can clearly see the fading up the sides of the rat Saxon posted, which is why i'm pretty sure it is/was an essex, add onto that that you had smaller litters and i'm pretty sure it is because it is lethal homozygous so essex X essex will result in smaller litters.

Kathy has just said basically what I said in my earlier post. Whether you get blacks and agoutis depends on whether your cinnamon is AA or Aa (carries self) based. Either way on the F2 you should get at least Russian Cinnamons.

Saxon....Dark Phase Pearl can be either English or American Mink based, so it could be either really. You could find out from seeing whether English or American Mink is in the background, or through test mating.

"How" you get to a variety is not really what determines a "better" quality rat (i.e. better quality colour or whatever else). The trick is improving once you have it - you can do the way suggested and get some on the F2 then keep back all Russian Cinnamons and begin a selective breeding program. Or indeed you could breed a Russian Agouti to a Cinnamon and then an inbreed, or any other way that will result in eventually a litter having the russian, mink and agouti genes. Don't forget you can always outbreed for improvement later on.

Going back to the original post about making a wider variety of colours, I assume you don't have any self minks at the moment, saxon? You could easily create some from doing a Cinnamon X Black and then an inbreed on those offspring.

Another possibility is Cinnamon Pearl which is a lovely colour. That is a rat that is Agouti, Mink and Pearl - might be an idea for you to work on as I see you have access to all of those "genes".


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Yeah I would agree in most other varieties that the shading would be the giveaway to an Essex, but pearl is very much like that already - I've had pearls which naturally shaded into a pale tum (probably due to the change in coat length?) much like the Essex effect, but weren't Essex (one was a blazed berkshire). Think you're probably right given the litter sizes, but pearl is a tricky variety to judge shading on. Easy enough to find out, do an agouti mating - it'll show up better then lol. 

Not that I'm biased towards agouti and cinn Essex or anything (I lost my cinn Essex stud buck this morning  ). My next litter will be an attempt to recreate him. Not in a Frankenstein manner, but that gives me an idea for a name!


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

mattm said:


> On my monitor I can clearly see the fading up the sides of the rat Saxon posted, which is why i'm pretty sure it is/was an essex, add onto that that you had smaller litters and i'm pretty sure it is because it is lethal homozygous so essex X essex will result in smaller litters.
> 
> *Yes I think he is essex as well. I'll mate him to one of my self minks.*
> 
> ...


*I just like to play with the varieties I have and would like any information as to what I could 'make'. Would the mink have to be english though as I'd have to test mate the pearls to find out if they are english or mock.*



KathyM said:


> If you have a cinnamon, that's basically an agouti with two mink genes, so you do have mink, just in an agouti based rat. If you mated the russian blue to the cinn, you'd get agoutis (and possibly blacks if the cinn has a self parent) carrying russian, mink and self. If you mated brother to sister, you'd get (potentially) some doves and russian cinns.
> 
> *I've explained the cinnie's breeding in reply to Mattm. Again would that be english mink if it were a cinnamon rat? That was a breeding I was thinking of again I'm open to suggestions.*
> 
> I think that's right, my head hurts.....:lol2:


*I can see I'm going to have a few litters in the next 6-12 months is anyone up for some babies if I make these varieties?????*


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I would imagine your cinns are english mink based, because it's more common than mock cinnamon and mock cinnamon is often quite dull brown. Mock cinnamon being cinnamon made with mock mink. However, if your cinns are related to your definite mock minks, scrap that as they are more likely to be mock lol. 

Not sure what to advise you on test matings as once you've tested it's difficult to work with rats that carry both, if you get me. Much like having rats that carry both BB and RB, it gets complicated for me. That's just me though!

Would be interested to see your mink Essex when you do them - I'll be recreating my cinn Essex very soon hopefully but because I'm working backwards from overmarked/Essex + berkshire rats, I imagine it will take me at least 2 gens to get back to decent Essex.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> I would imagine your cinns are english mink based, because it's more common than mock cinnamon and mock cinnamon is often quite dull brown. Mock cinnamon being cinnamon made with mock mink. However, if your cinns are related to your definite mock minks, scrap that as they are more likely to be mock lol.
> 
> *No my cinnamons are totally unrelated to the mock mink! Probably english then?*
> *A good chance that with proper matings I'll get the doves then and related varieties.*
> ...


*So breeding my pearl, well my granddaughters, buck to my cinnie would give me mink pearl???? Possibly....if the cinnie is english which it probably is.*
*My cinnie does are going to be a while before they are ready. *

*I'm trying to sort out which mating I can do first, according to age of the rats I have here, I know I can do a cinnamon buck(6 months) x RB doe(would be second litter as she is 9 months).* *The cinnamon does not carry russian though so it would be the next gen before I had a chance of russian cinnamon.*

*I'll look through the posts to remind myself whether i've understaood what has been said and what else I can do in the next few months.*


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Saxon, your last post, Agouti cant be carried as its dominant


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

saxon said:


> *So breeding my pearl, well my granddaughters, buck to my cinnie would give me mink pearl???? Possibly....if the cinnie is english which it probably is.*
> *My cinnie does are going to be a while before they are ready. *




It would give you cinnamon and cinnamon pearl first generation as cinnamon is agouti based and agouti is dominant. That is unless the cinnamon carries self, in which case you would get cinnamon, mink, CP and pearl. : victory:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

minerva,

I know I just wasnt' thinking.

Kathym,

Yes hopefully Lionel will still be capable of 'doing the do' when my cinnamon does are ready to breed. I do have an older cinnie doe but I'm not breeding her again as she has had her two litters now.

I've put the cinnie buck in with one of the russian blue does. Cinnie not carrying russian though.

As Lionel(DPP essex) is getting on now, he's fathered a litter when he was around 5 months, I would like to put him with 'someone' now to keep the essex but who do I put him with?
I shouldn't use the mock mink, I have no cinnie does ready, I have russian blue does and agouti does (carrying russian) that I could use now.

I have cinnies, RBA's and blacks coming up in a few months.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

If he was really cracking or keeping Essex was the priority, I would be tempted to see if I could source a mink or cinnamon doe for him, but it depends on what variety of essex you want? My plans here are for cinnamon and agouti essex you see, so putting russian in there is not what I want (I can't show russian cinn essex, pretty as the one in my last litter was!), but it might be what you want? It really depends on what you want to achieve. It's also more than colour, to get better rats you need (as you already know I know) to pick out faults and better them in a doe. It sometimes means a step away from your goal to get things right. 

TBH it really depends on what you want out of them. Don't write him off though if you're mad about him and are worried about age, the father of my current litter came to me at the grand age of 2 and has made me probably the nicest litter I've ever had. :flrt:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Well he's a really nice rat. Has a great temperament and his brother was placed 1st in the essex class at one of the YRC shows as a kitt.
I know that's not him and the other one was just a kitt but I'd like to keep the line going.

I could put him to one of the agouti, not carrying RB, but she then carries PE!!!! About 5 generations back but it would be my luck for it to pop up again.

I'm sure he will still be ok when the cinnie does I have here are ready for him. That would be no sooner than another 3 months and that's breeding them at 5 months!
I prefer to wait until around 6-7 months.

If I could find an english mink doe then I'd go for that but it's finding one isn't it.

Personally I like my russian varieties but I'd like an essex, cinnie or mink, that I could show eventually.

Alternatively I could ask who I got his father off if he has any still.
I'd have to breed DPP essex x DPP essex again though.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I personally prefer Essex in agouti based varieties, cinnamon being my ultimate, am looking forward to seeing what CP Essex looks like in my next mating. I can take some pics of mine if it helps? Will have to be later on as I'm out GMRing this aft.....:flrt:


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

All I will say is, it would be a sensible idea to keep your mock minks seperate from these projects, or things could get confusing!

As you said you will have some russian (blue) agoutis ready for breeding soon, these can be used in the line of course because they have the agouti and russian genes already, you just need to intergrate mink.

As Kathy said it is more than likely your cinnamons are based on english mink as the shade is quite different when based on mock mink, really. Although some people have been fooled in the past!

I have to agree with KathyM about essex being lovely in agouti based colours - actually a few years ago when I was initially interested in breeding, Essex was the variety I wanted to do (in Agouti and Cinnamon) but I was talked out of it, as the general consensus back then was marked is a bad idea for a newbie!! I realize there is more to work on with a marked variety, esp. if breeding for show aswell as nice pets, but I think if you have your priorities in the right place and the right help, you can do well.

If I were you my personal choice would probably (depending on the rats I had and who was most suitable) out the DPP essex to a cinnamon doe.

R.E. getting kittens, i'd have some pet kits if you wern't so bloody far away saxon! lol.

ETO
I wouldn't be too worried about breeding your does at 5 months if you thought it was important for your line. Many well established breeders do this routinely anyway.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

mattm said:


> All I will say is, it would be a sensible idea to keep your mock minks seperate from these projects, or things could get confusing!
> 
> *I know to keep the mocks out of it.*
> *I am going to try the pearl merle though so will be using Lionel with one of the mock mink does eventually just to see if I'm lucky enough to get some merles.*
> ...


Kathym,

I'd love to see some of the essex you have.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think any variety can be hard, I dont think there's the perfect starter one, just as I dont think that marked ones shouldn't be a starter variety.

The only thing is you have to be prepared for litters and litters (etc etc) with the possibility of not having a rat that was showable in varieties....which doesn't bother me as I enjoy going to shows ratless just as much (and showing in pet).

I love breeding marked (I've only just started), I can understand why people would think it was more challenging but to be honest, I find them more exciting and home-able. Nothing show winning so far, but I've only had two marked litters (different lines - so technically the first litter of each).


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Essex is a simple dominant, not very difficult to start with breeding wise. I remember it being the done thing to breed topaz to start with and God forbid you ever started with a marked variety lol. That was how it was when I had my first attempt at breeding. I found (elusive and rare) lovely mentors and did one unmarked litter which went all wrong, lost doe and kittens, and didn't have enough passion left to continue, so left it for years. When I came back to it thankfully this idea of everyone having one accepted mentor that made all your decisions for you including what varieties you were allowed to breed had long gone. Even the people who were lecturing the first time round had changed poles by the 2nd. :lol2:

Here are some of my lot here (some are in other homes).









An Odyssey agouti essex now in a new home (about 5-6 months in this photo).









Essex doe not bred by me - came to me for breeding but didn't make any sadly.









Another Odyssey (male) baby agouti essex. 









Sister of rat above, went off to a breeding home and got stars, which is more than any of my keepers have done lol.









Andi, a cinnamon essex out of my first litter. Can you see why she didn't get much of a show life? :lol2:









Russian cinnamon essex out of Andi's 2nd litter - she was nicely marked, shame about the colour!









Andi as a kitten, with my other keeper out of that litter, Halley, next to her. 









Odyssey Pilsner, one of Lisa's boys bred here by me, currently staying with me to make babies with my cinnamon pearl doe Maggie. He is an overmarked Essex from an Essex to Berkshire mating in my Essex capped plans. He was a "halfway there", and isn't ideal for getting my cinn Essex back because of that, but is so gorgeous and very much like his Dad Sirius who died this week and was the original choice for this litter (SDAV took it's toll on him). 









Sirius, not bred by me (wish I could say he was!!).

I won't take up more room with the Essex capped/Baldie ones lol.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Saxon, i've not really bred rats "for myself" but have been in charge of a breeding project that my college have (animal based college) for a couple of years which I don't really talk about. Mainly PEWs and Black Hoodeds - it has been a headache at times, but i've enjoyed it.

I was extremely close to starting a Black Eyed Siamese and Burmese breeding line, and got wonderful rats and advice from the lovely Jenna at HKM, along with other breeders, but when I thought more about this I decided to wait on things for my own good - not because of the rats or anybody else. 

I actually have loose plans to get back into breeding rats for "myself" in the not so distant future and have semi-settled on Mink Essex this time as my main aim. Perhaps Cinnamon and Agouti Essex subsidary of that as related genes that work very well with Essex. If this goes ahead I will not be breeding for show - just health, temperament and type to make brilliant pets.

Lovely pics KathyM. And I can understand what you mean - I think i've been lucky in that i've had such a wide variety of advice from breeders and now when I go back into breeding i'll feel much more ready to "go it alone" if you know what I mean - whilst still I understand the importance of having support in your breeding plans.

Nothing is fixed with me yet but after seeing how the Mink and Essex genes interact and what a lovely variety it can be, i'm quite excited!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

If I can be of any use, let me know. I expect it'll be a couple of gens before I've got show-worthy Essex back after losing all my options and having to rebuild from scratch, but I'm always willing to help people who seriously want to improve Essex. :no1: Obviously Jo is one to talk to also, her Essex absolutely rock.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I really appeciate that Kathy, thanks. After all if breeders can work together it is ultimately going to be better for fancy rats as a species and speaks volumes about a breeders' ethics in my opinion.

You must keep us up to date on your progress Saxon!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Couldn't agree more Matt. :2thumb: Yes Saxon please keep us updated, I'll post pics of any cinn pearl or cinn essex I get out of these two if they ever get it on lol. Likely to be mismarked to a degree as dad is technically essex + berky, but it'll be a step in the right direction (Maggie the doe is to die for too).


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Well Lionel is in with an agouti, no russian but is carrying PE way back, she is the only one I have ready now though.
Lionel is overmarked but he's the only essex here.

I've just noticed that Kathym you bred essex to berkies...I have a nice black berkie but as you say that's not an idea choice either!!!
I think I'm going to get my best results formt he cinnamon does when they are ready but that's a while away yet. I'll have to borrow Lionel back again.

I'm hoping for something from the agouti mating that will be essex, I should get them, just in case Lionel isn't performing by the time the cinnie girls are ready.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

The essex to berkshire was for essex capped/baldie and it wasn't a great result to be honest as it produced inbetweeners lol, but you live and learn!


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

If I had the space i'd probably have some Essex's already! lol That's the main issue really - think I need an outbuilding!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL I relegated a child to sharing a room with his brother, so now have a bedroom for the rats! :lol2:


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

LOL. I did used to have a fairly nice shed for the rats, this has since been nicked by my parents for boring garden equipment. They now have 3 sheds for that purpose! 

I think we're looking at another shed, hopefully bigger this time, and if not d'ya think I can talk them into a house extension? LOL

Well let me know how it goes anyway, you're quite a distance from me but Jo is in Essex if my rubbish memory is correct? That's do-able  And of course I have two lovely Rivendell Cinnamon Bucks here already!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL, don't tell me that, I need a good cinn stud buck, gave away all I've bred then realised I needed them!:lol2:

I have a couple coming off Ann soon too, one is a Turpin (yippeeeeee!). I have a couple of Rivendell rats here and they absolutely rock, if you're going to use them as a basis for your lines you'll be well set. Jo's essex are superb too, far better than mine although I'm always here if you need a hand. : victory:


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Kathy - have posted on your forum RFO so as to not hijack Saxons thread...oops! lol.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL no worries, glad to have you there! :no1:


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