# Argument with what I saw as an irresponsible dog owner



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

On Friday I took Skye to the huge field opposite our shopping centre to go and pick hawthorn berries down the hedgerow. We walked onto the field from the centre top entrance opposite our shopping centre. I saw right at the other end of the field a man with 2 rough collies, so I let Skye off to have a run about and waited until he'd done his business, picked it up and then put him on the flexi lead. The guy with the 2 collies was about in the middle of the field heading straight up the centre of the field towards the exit I had come in on, so I walked over to the hedgerow and began to pick some hawthorn berries for the Squiggles. 

I kept checking on the guy as he got closer and then I heard barking and saw a Jack Russell heading towards me mouthing off. Because I was using both hands to grab branches, the flexi was extended by about 4-5feet, making it about 7-8 feet long. The guy never called the dog and at first I didn't even realise it belonged to him, but as there was no-one else on the field I assumed that it did.

At this stage the guy had veered off in my direction and was heading towards a gap in the hedge about 40' above where I was. Of course the barking terrier excited Skye and he started prancing around like an idiot with his hackles up, so the flexi was taught, which then made it difficult for me to pull it in, cos when I pulled him in I had to release the lock to tighten it and of course that then gave him the purchase to pull and actually extend the lead, so I was kind of snookered and you know if I've learned anything about flexi leads it's that it isn't a good idea to grab the nylon cord with 34Kg of dog pulling at the other end.

Fortunately, the terrier saw that discretion was the better part of valour and then veered off and, but one of the rough collies headed straight for me before I had a chance to get Skye back to me because his excitement had taken over.

Then the guy shouted that inevitable comment that is the bain of my life "It's OK, he just wants to be friendly", so I shouted back that Skye didn't, he wanted to have a go, yet still the guy kept on walking and never once called any of the 3 dogs away from me. The collie stopped a few feet from Skye, and by this time it would have been obvious to a 5 year old child that Skye was getting aggressive, he was straining on the lead to get to the dog and his hackles were up, and me calling him back wasn't working, but still the guy kept walking his route, not calling his dogs. Then the collie veered off and the other collie came straight to Skye and Skye went for him.

By God the man moved then! He rushed towards the dogs shouting to Skye to get off his dog and hitting him with some kind of large ball thing he had in his hand. Skye then came running back to me as he realised he was in trouble. 

The guy began ranting at me that he shouldn't be out of the house, cos he was aggressive, so I replied that my dog was on the lead and under control until his dogs, which weren't on a lead and which he wasn't controlling at all, came over to him. He said it didn't matter, my dog was dangerous. I told him that I had clearly warned him that he was not friendly with other dogs and he mumbled that he hadn't heard me say that!!! 

I told him I had no intentions of keeping my dog in the house, because he didn't know how to behave around other dogs, but at least I kept him on a lead and didn't allow him anywhere near other dogs. I then said that if he understood dogs he would have clearly seen that my dog's body language was clearly threatening and in no way friendly and yet he still allowed his dogs to come over to him, whether he heard me warn him or not!

Then he said he should be muzzled when he was out and I said that if he had controlled his dogs and not allowed them to come over, the whole situation wouldn't have happened, so I didn't see that my dog was to blame and I refused to keep him in the house or muzzle him because of people like him who thought that because their dog was friendly they had a right to allow them to approach unfriendly dogs and them blame the unfriendly one!

So he walked away mumbling that he knew it wasn't the dog's fault!

I was absolutely foaming, but was I right? I think I was, but then I'm prejudiced because Skye is my dog and I know that his problems are the result of lack of socialisation and training in his first home and by comparison with how he was when he came to us at 11 months old, he's come on incredibly well.

So comments please???


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

The dude was in the wrong! You had control of your dog and it was wrong of him to assume because his dogs wanted to be 'friendly', yours would be too.
I put my hands up and admit our 2 sometimes bugger off to another dog and pester them, and they have been snapped at a time or two! I'll also admit that we've told owners "we're very sorry, they're just too friendly" if we haven't been able to get the leads back on them in time and they bolt off, and they've got their naughty heads on. However we're not going to go up in arms if our dogs blatantly disobey our commands and then get themselves snarled at because, to be fair, we should have had control of our dogs. We should be apologising to the other owner for our 2 being a nuisance, which is what this man should have done with his collies! We've been fortunate that most of the dogs in our village are friendly, and we know which ones aren't so watch out for them carefully, and ones we haven't met before.

Gizmo tried to attack a rottweiler the other day who came bounding up to us, 30-40 feet in front of its owner... the whole "it's alright, she just wants to say hello!" thing didn't change Gizmo's mind as he was loomed over... I know you shouldn't but I had to pick him up as he started going for this rotty, he was very frightened and was just protecting himself... all the while the woman telling me it was fine and I was yelling back "yeah but mine doesn't want to play!!" as the rotty continued circling us trying to get a sniff of Giz and stressing him all the more. It would have been different if Gizmo _had_ wanted to play but he was scared, and the rotty wasn't listening! The dog did not go back to her owner when called, the woman had to literally drag this dog away at least 4 times before giving up and sticking her on a lead. If the dog had been more receptive to her owner's commands I may not have been so quick to try and protect my dogs...

If you're meeting a new dog for the first time, you should treat them with caution - which this man obviously didn't do! He's a bit of a spanner.


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

I do agree with you, that it's mostly his fault for letting his dogs approach Skye without checking if he was friendly first! And how dare he say Skye should be left at home! So every dog-aggressive dog should be removed from the outside and forced to stay inside? I don't think so. They have as much right as any other dog, considering that the dog is on a lead and muzzled as an extra precaution. I believe Skye was on a lead so it's not his fault, and I understand if you don't want to muzzle him; my dog has a muzzle that we use for trips to the vets (waiting room full of dogs) or on walks at times where there are lots of dogs about, but if we're going on a quiet walk then I'll leave the muzzle at home.

Really pees me off that unfriendly dogs ALWAYS get the blame when something like this happens, when it's down to the owners letting friendly dogs just being allowed to run over any dog without the owner asking first. Just because my dog doesn't like other dogs it doesn't make it his fault if a lose, out of control dog comes running over to him out of nowhere and ends up hurt.

edit: I will say though that perhaps you may want to use a normal lead next time? it can help to gain control of your dog much faster than the flexi lead.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

If it helps I would be on your side. We are future dog owners as in we are planning to get a rescue soon. I don't believe a dog should be off a lead unless it can be called back and has good return. if it doesn't return then it oly goes on long leads. 

i really dont like it when people leg dogs free roam in public spaces with no control and it's just going up to random people and other dogs. 

Jay


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## cathspythons (Jun 29, 2008)

I dont see any wrong on yours or Skyes part. I meet idiots like that everyday whilst i'm out with my dogs. My dogs are never off leash in a public place,yet i have still had several idiots who blame my dogs for being nasty when its there off lead dogs running upto and attacking mine.


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

Spikebrit said:


> If it helps I would be on your side. We are future dog owners as in we are planning to get a rescue soon. I don't believe a dog should be off a lead unless it can be called back and has good return. if it doesn't return then it oly goes on long leads.
> 
> i really dont like it when people leg dogs free roam in public spaces with no control and it's just going up to random people and other dogs.
> 
> Jay


Totally agree about recall! You need to know your dog will come back!
I keep painting Jazzy and Gizmo out to be right terrors but on the whole they are very good with their recall, I promise :blush: They just get odd waves of mischief occasionally! When we feel we can trust them they get let off on the field... if not, long-line! Obviously there are days the trust is misplaced... Then they spend more time on the lines until we know they're back to listening to us :roll:


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I know just how you feel.I meet a woman with a retriever most mornings who utters those very words.He's just being friendly.I'd like to shoot her,she is completely thick skinned and impervious to the difficulty she causes me.Her dog is an entire male,he's not aggressive but comes with a prancing full of himself tail held high manner and is about 20 feet in front of her.He causes a massive reaction in my dogs.My 3 males are on the lead,bitches off.My two brothers are a danger to each other when excited not to her dog and it's a massive stress to keep order as her testosterone pumped dog who although isn't aggressive is asserting himself marauds all round me and mine:devil:.I'm completely gobsmacked that she does nothing,smug as smug can be that her dog is no problem.I carry a walking stick to block my dogs from moving infront of me if needs be and one of these days I'm going to be very tempted to clonk her unsuspecting retriever even though it should be her.


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> If it helps I would be on your side. We are future dog owners as in we are planning to get a rescue soon. I don't believe a dog should be off a lead unless it can be called back and has good return. if it doesn't return then it oly goes on long leads.
> 
> i really dont like it when people leg dogs free roam in public spaces with no control and it's just going up to random people and other dogs.
> 
> Jay


I remember a man with a puppy out on a public footpath which is used for dog-walking, puppy was very young and excitable, had no call back whatsoever, didn't listen to the man at all and wasn't on the lead...I'm sorry but that is just moronic and asking for troube. Guy was lucky my dog was (as usual) on a lead and muzzled, because the puppy kept running around us, yapping and trying to play. Now if it had been someone with an unfriendly dog and un-muzzled...I wouldn't want to think what may have happened.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Ophexis said:


> T*otally agree about recall! You need to know your dog will come back!*
> I keep painting Jazzy and Gizmo out to be right terrors but on the whole they are very good with their recall, I promise :blush: They just get odd waves of mischief occasionally! When we feel we can trust them they get let off on the field... if not, long-line! Obviously there are days the trust is misplaced... Then they spend more time on the lines until we know they're back to listening to us :roll:



Im looking forward to trying to train the dog we do get to recall. Never had a dog before so this could be a challenge. 

Jay


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

When we're on the street or walking in a town centre he's on a traffic lead, which is literally less than a foot long, but when we're in a grassy area, then the flexi lead is on when there are dogs about so he can at least investigate smells and retrieve his ball/stick/frisbee as we walk. 

His recall now is excellent, provided he doesn't see a dog :roll:, so he is only let off on large fields or beaches so that I can see dogs approaching from a distance and call him back to put him on the leash.

He does wear a muzzle at the vets because the vet is scared of him and a frightened dog with anxiety issues is unpredictable in situations like that. And when new visitors come who he doesn't know, we muzzle him when they arrive because he gets so excited and as a puppy has obviously never been taught not to 'mouth'. He doesn't bite people, but he tends to charge at them with his mouth open and has been known to 'tooth' them, but it's not a bite!


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

Spikebrit said:


> Im looking forward to trying to train the dog we do get to recall. Never had a dog before so this could be a challenge.
> 
> Jay


Just be the most exciting, best thing on this planet and you'll have no issue :2thumb: 
In the words of my ex-employer, "You have to be more exciting than horse poo" :lol2:
Do you have any particular breed in mind or is it going to the rescue and seeing who you connect with?


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Ophexis said:


> Just be the most exciting, best thing on this planet and you'll have no issue :2thumb:
> In the words of my ex-employer, "You have to be more exciting than horse poo" :lol2:
> Do you have any particular breed in mind or is it going to the rescue and seeing who you connect with?


We are on a rescue list for a pug, so it will be a pug :mf_dribble:. my partner is pug mad, as I have all the reps its only fair he gets his dog. 

But all the reading i've done says pugs are one of the hardest dogs to train, so nothing like starting with a challenge. Think i should be all right, got expereince training other things in a simply way, I'm also a psychologist who has a background in behaviour so should be able to do something.

Oh and I think im more exciting then horse poo, well i hope anyway lol

Jay


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Just want to add, that if we are out in an open place and he is on his flexi lead and a dog gets too close, then I call him to heel, sit him beside me, shorten the flexi lead and give him the command "leave" and he will sit and let them walk past. At first he would be so excited he would bark, then he calmed a bit, then if the dog barked at him he would bark back, but every time it happens he gets better at just sitting beside me, with me repeating the 'Leave' command.

It was just unfortunate that at the point this happened I was knee deep in nettles and blackberry branches, with a tree in my hand and once he'd got the flexi lead taught and got himself all hyped up, I had no chance to get him back to me. :sad:


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

I have to say, having been in your shoes, I used a muzzle / short lead for dog-heavy (and people heavy) traffic areas and a long recall line rather than a flexi for run about time - that way I could physically reel in when excited deafness kicked in. 

I don't think it's your fault - I think the man is clearly an idiot - but unfortunately there's a lot of them about.

I have a 10 metre long line that I don't need anymore - if it's any use to you at all I could post it to you? I don't want any money if it would help.

EDIT - sorry most of this is irrelevent since I took such a long time to type it! Sorry! Glad he's got the 'leave' command down, sounds like he's got a really high protection drive - is he bred from european / working lines?


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## GlassWalker (Jun 15, 2011)

I feel the pain. At my local park, there's a significant number of dog owners who obviously have no control. The dogs run wild, harassing the wildfowl, other dogs and people. On occasion when a swan fights back, the owner then takes an interest. If any harm were to come to a swan from dog or owner I'd have no hesitation in taking a record of it as I always have a camera, to do what I can within the law to stop them from ever doing it again.


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

feorag said:


> Just want to add, that if we are out in an open place and he is on his flexi lead and a dog gets too close, then I call him to heel, sit him beside me, shorten the flexi lead and give him the command "leave" and he will sit and let them walk past. At first he would be so excited he would bark, then he calmed a bit, then if the dog barked at him he would bark back, but every time it happens he gets better at just sitting beside me, with me repeating the 'Leave' command.
> 
> It was just unfortunate that at the point this happened I was knee deep in nettles and blackberry branches, with a tree in my hand and once he'd got the flexi lead taught and got himself all hyped up, I had no chance to get him back to me. :sad:


These things happen! Don't beat yourself up, Skye was effectively restrained, the collies were the ones that were impolite and lumbered over without understanding Skye's body language.
We too try to practice the leave command, specifically with Jazzy as she is grossly inappropriate when meeting other dogs :lol2: Gizmo just makes an irritating squeaking noise until he's told to hush!


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Eilleen,

I've not read others replies sorry!
I can see it from both sides as I've been 'on both sides' if you know what I mean!
I'm not having a go at you or solely blaming you at all but in this particular instance there is blame on both sides from both owners, yourself and the bloke, it will be a lesson learned for both of you!

On your side....yes you had your dog on a lead but a dog on an extended flexi dog lead is not deemed fully under control!...take it from me my bullmastiff could have taken me away if I'd not shortened his flexi in time many times.
I found doing anything else when taking Vinnie for a walk was impossible I had to be very observant when I had him out!

On the blokes side....he should have kept his dogs away from your dog whether you warned him Skye was aggressive or not unless you invited him to introduce them. If it was a leash controlled area then he was solely at fault though.
Again once my dog was off lead, a rottie this time many years ago, a dog on a flexi was allowed to come over to him he didn't even approach it. It attacked him and he did retaliate after a minute or so. If I hadn't had witnesses I'd have been to blame since my dog was off lead....under voice control, I'd told him to 'stay' and thankfully he had, but still off lead the cops said.

Unfortunately if there had been injury to his dog simply because your dog was not fully controlled it may have gone in his favour if a claim had been made. Even though Skye was on a lead, of sorts, you cannot 'fully' control a dog when he's 'going at it' 8-9 feet away from you..especially at his weight and not being a 'big person' yourself.

My worry for you and Skye is that this may well take him backwards in his training and make things even harder for you both to enjoy a walk!
At least there were no serious injuries this time and hopefully it doesn't happen again.
It does do my nut in though when owners say the dog is only going to play when they have no idea whether your dog is friendly or not!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Not a big fan of flexis for the very thing you mentioned yourself, nylon cord under tension can slice fingers faster than cheesewire! 
Get yourself a long lead, that way if you get in the situation again then you can reel him back under your own steam. 
The man was an idiot though, my dogs are hyper idiots at times and I know that they wind other dogs up, so if I see a dog on lead coming then I put them all back on leads, no incidents so far!


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i hate flexis, awful things dont give you any control imo.

i have a 2m long thick lead and 26kg of out of control flabrador just drags me across the field if theres anyone about.


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## Moggy (Jun 7, 2010)

I have to agree with saxon slightly, in the sense that with a flexi lead not being at its shortest, it makes it very difficult to have your dog completely under control. I find it hard enough with my large JRT X on a flexi - his recall is not the best as he goes into hunting mode and therefore in a park etc he is always on a lead - normally flexi so he can still have a short run. My other (oldest) JRT never leaves my side on or off a lead so am never worried about him. But with my JRT X, even on a flexi, if he see's something, i find difficult to reel him in at times. 
In regards to a muzzle, i personnally would have one on a dog which does not get on with other dogs, as i would be too scared of something happening in a situation like yours and my dog having to be put down because of it. But you know your dog better than all of us, so you are the one to best judge the muzzle side of things. 
And this is NOTHING against you -but i feel that using a muzzle is one of the most responsible things in with a dog which is aggressive to other peoples dogs. unfortunately, as has been pointed out, some people with dogs just dont care about what their dogs get up to but are all ready to shout when something happens!! 
The bloke was definately in the wrong as well, he should have control of his dogs at all times even off the lead. It shouldnt matter whether there are other dogs around or not, they should always be under control. 

I had an incident at the beach where my oldest JRT - the one who never runs off- ran up to this dog and started to 'try' things with her. He refused to listen to recall-very rare for him and when i went down to get him, the owner was angry with me, but then admitted her dog was in heat - OFF a lead and on a beach FULL of dogs. I foudn it very difficult to keep my temper with her! Now, my dog did the natural thing and i cant blame him for that, but he still stayed on a lead after that as i didnt trust him and the other dog stayed in his sight for the next 2 hours!!!
At the end of the day ferog, only YOU know your dog best and things unfortunately will never change, there will always be those few irresponsible owners!!!


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

I am not a dog owner but I think the bloke was in the wrong if he had hit my dog he would have been wearing his nuts as earrings! :devil:


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm another one that has been on both sides of this situation. In fact I was on your side today with a horror of a small dog trying to bite Oz, thank god my mum had her on the lead or it could have got seriously nasty.

But I've also been on the side where I've shouted over that my dog is fine as she runs over to their (off-lead) dog, who then turned out to be dog aggressive and there have been times when I've thought 'why wouldn't you have it on-lead and muzzled?' I think sadly, most people with dog aggressive dogs just have to accept that not everyone is as understanding and you may have to think of a muzzle, I take one out with me just in case.

I think the other owner is at fault, though blame can never be given 100%, I've been in situations where anyone else would say it was the other persons fault, but in the back of my head I know I'm partially to blame, even if its only 0.001%!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

annabel said:


> EDIT - sorry most of this is irrelevent since I took such a long time to type it! Sorry! Glad he's got the 'leave' command down, sounds like he's got a really high protection drive - is he bred from european / working lines?


He's had the leave command down for over a year now and 9 times out of 10 he's accepting of dogs walking past him, if he is to heel and sitting calmly.

I imagine he is from european lines originally as he is a black and they came in a lot later than the sables etc.



saxon said:


> I'm not having a go at you or solely blaming you at all but in this particular instance there is blame on both sides from both owners, yourself and the bloke, it will be a lesson learned for both of you!
> 
> On your side....yes you had your dog on a lead but a dog on an extended flexi dog lead is not deemed fully under control
> 
> Unfortunately if there had been injury to his dog simply because your dog was not fully controlled it may have gone in his favour if a claim had been made. Even though Skye was on a lead, of sorts, you cannot 'fully' control a dog when he's 'going at it' 8-9 feet away from you..especially at his weight and not being a 'big person' yourself.


I do agree with you Dawn - I knew I wasn't in *total* control of Skye, because I couldn't get him back to me. If the blessed terrier hadn't started barking or the man had started turning towards me before the terrier started, I would have had Skye beside me on the unextended flexi and there wouldn't have been a problem.

I guess it was also my fault because I expected, having warned the man and seeing Skye's hackles up to the extent that they were (and he's a longhair so there's a lot of hackles to stand up :lol, that he would call his dogs and take avoiding action - which he obviously didn't, so I still maintain he was irresponsible.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

You do have a responsiblility though to try to adjust your dogs behaviour. You didnt appear from your story to reprimand your dog at all. I also disagree i believe knowing your dog is dog aggressive he should be muzzled for safety.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> You do have a responsiblility though to try to adjust your dogs behaviour. You didnt appear from your story to reprimand your dog at all. I also disagree i believe knowing your dog is dog aggressive he should be muzzled for safety.


I didn't think whether or not I reprimanded him made a difference to what happened, so didn't think it was necessary to mention that.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Marinam2 said:


> You do have a responsiblility though to try to adjust your dogs behaviour. You didnt appear from your story to reprimand your dog at all. I also disagree i believe knowing your dog is dog aggressive he should be muzzled for safety.


If a strange dog got in my dogs face and my dog bit it I wouldn't see that as bad behaviour at all and definitely wouldn't punish the dog. 
Besides that, in a decent training program punishment is not used at all.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Devi said:


> If a strange dog got in my dogs face and my dog bit it I wouldn't see that as bad behaviour at all and definitely wouldn't punish the dog.
> Besides that, in a decent training program punishment is not used at all.


I was just wondering that if skye had been told to "knock it off" and he had whether or not the other dogs would have bothered at all ?? If skye had been overtly challenging the others may be accepted it.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

how dog aggressive do you think a dog has to be for a dog to be muzzled? because I've been reading through this as my dog is also kept on a flexi lead because he can be 'unpredictable' around dogs, sometimes he seems fine, sometimes he isn't, and he's getting much much better but some dog owners let their dogs run everywhere, or offlead with what seems like no recall whatsoever. I was met today in the street by a boxer who's owner was calling from the feilds :s My dog usually hates boxers too because they are so bouncy, it was a good job my dog just said 'hello' nicely. 
Although I always have my dog under complete control so the boxer would have to have gone for my dog too for there to be any contact. However a few days ago, a little chi came running up to us yapping away, I said 'leave' to my dog and we carried on walking but this little dog kept on following ignoring the owners recall, and then the dog ended up underneath my dog, jumped and seemed to bite him in the bits :O My dog went mad, very suddenly, I had to grab his collar and even lift his feet off the ground to stop him getting the dog which he could have easily killed it was sooo tiny. 

I think every dog should be on lead, because there are soo many bloomin' idiots around!! There should be designated off-lead areas.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

It would be great if we could have "dog parks" an idea the americans seem to love!! It would also make dog ownership more of a social activity and make puppy socialisation much easier instead of hunting people down like we had to....


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

Marinam2 said:


> It would be great if we could have "dog parks" an idea the americans seem to love!! It would also make dog ownership more of a social activity and make puppy socialisation much easier instead of hunting people down like we had to....


We had to search for a group that allowed their dogs to play together to socialise Ozzy. I had to actually approach them whilst my mum held her back and asked if they'd mind a GSD coming to play.
My only issue is now Oz only gets on with them dogs, every other dog she gets quite tetchy with :bash:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I was just wondering that if skye had been told to "knock it off" and he had whether or not the other dogs would have bothered at all ?? If skye had been overtly challenging the others may be accepted it.


Of course he was reprimanded - he knew he'd done wrong, because his body language when he came back to me said it all. Unfortunately he knows what is right and what is wrong, but having both high anxiety levels and high energy levels, he doesn't think first, he acts instantly and then the penny drops and he knows he's done wrong.


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

Even dog friendly dogs can take exception to another dog. A nearby female in heat, a spooked dog etc can change a normally placid well bahaved dog so at that no dog should ever be off lead. If a known dog aggressive dog is walked in quiet areas away from dogs/people that is reasonable behaviour on the part of the owner. A loose dog ingnoring its owner and another dogs posture is the responsibility of its owner not anybody it approaches.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

I do think the man was in the wrong. Having been in a slightly reversed situation of yours, where Lady was on lead and a bouncy staffy and bullmastiff came over and attacked her, ripping her neck open. You warned him he ignored it.

However, I do feel that if you're going to walk him on a flexi, for your own sake he should maybe be muzzled. I never felt like I had 100% control when I used Flexi's with Jethro & Tia (bullmastiff & shepherd cross, both large boisterous dogs) the damage they can do to your hands is awful to. Plus if something happened/distraction occurred like today you've got less weight behind you I guess, not sure how to phrase it, to get him back under control.

I'm probably biased because Lady got attacked and I went through a brief phase of thinking most dogs should be muzzled. Now I just think human aggressive/dog aggresive dogs should be. If for no other reason, than if he did attack a dog, the owners could try to pursue matters and it could lead to Skye being destroyed. Which is a sickening thought, but I do wonder how a court would have judged the situation you've described. Would they say it was his fault for having them off lead? Or yours for having a dog aggressive dog unmuzzled? I honestly don't know which way they'd side.

If Skye really got into another dog and their owners tried seperating them, is there any chance he would nip or mouth the owner of that dog? As that, if they pursued it would probably be an instant PTS decision. When Lady was attacked the police, as there were no witnesses or cctv said they were limited as to what they could do but would look into it, however if the dogs had attacked Will and hurt him (the staffy attacked his legs which were in jeans so did no damage) they would have pursued it more heavily.


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

It was a most unfortunate incident that probably all of us could relate to. These things always happen when least expected, when you are off guard! It is always your fault, you should know that. It's never the other persons fault!!:whistling2:

Last week, a guy was lurking in the woods, couldn't see a dog at all. My two ran forward, too quick for me to grab and yes there was a dog there. This guy shouted to get my dogs away or he would "kick it". I could see Robbie very interested and wagging his tail! The man said "she's in a delicate condition". Of course the bitch was in season! Well if he couldn't handle her, then why walk her where other dogs go? It wasn't a problem for me and I called my dogs away. Some people get very touchy, really they are unable to cope with the situation in hand plain and simple.

My advice is to always have your dog on a short lead, unless you are sure there are no other dogs around. It does not have to wear a muzzle, unless it is people aggresive. However, if you feel happier then fit one. I would always advise this, then it can never be your fault if your dog is on the lead and will give you peace of mind. Only use a flexi if you are in an area with no other dogs. There is no way you can handle a large dog if it is distracted on a long lead. To give you greater control also use a Halti.

Of course the other guy with the collies should not have allowed them to come up. Collies can be unpredictable around dogs they don't know. I would always say if you are approaching someone with a dog you don't know, always put it on the lead. That is the safest approach. It's never a nice thing to have an argument with another dog owner about theirs, or your dog, it just makes one feel awful for the rest of the day.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Your deffo in the right in my opinion.

the phrase "selective hearing" comes to mind. Glad none of the dogs were hurt though but every dog owner at some point regardless of how well they controll their dogs is bound too bump into an idiot now and again.

It does annoy me sometimes when I walk JD and dogs approach him, although he is friendly he does think it is a good excuse to flounce around and to be fair he is a strong dog.

Over my dead body would I muzzle my dog, if a dog ever decided to bite JD I would at least want him too have the use of his only defence.

You warned him, he didn't listen, he didn't heed the warning and if something happned well it is entirely his fault, if a dog is aggresive it is not an excuse to keep them locked up in the dark.
Every dog owner should be able to go out with their dogs regardless and sensibly.

Even when I see a dog (even if it is friendly) approach JD I tend to hold onto his lead alot more.
It annoys me when peeps allow their dogs to do this when they can clearly see dogs on leads.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

What type of Flexi do you have? The ones with string are not really capable of holding back a GSD throwing their weight around to get somewhere and the Flexi Giant is full ribbon, and therefore capable of being grabbed and pulled back in a way you really can't do with a cord flexi. Maybe an upgrade is worth looking at.

I have to say if the guy was 100% in the wrong, but I would hate to see any dog injured to teach their owners a lesson. Therefore if I owned a dog I thought would react in a way that would cause actual injury to another dog, ie if the reaction of my dog was to bite to draw blood, and 90% of dog fights are wrestling matches not real fights, I would use a muzzle....and then carry a dog stop spray so I could defend my dog against attack.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

feorag said:


> I do agree with you Dawn - I knew I wasn't in *total* control of Skye, because I couldn't get him back to me. If the blessed terrier hadn't started barking or the man had started turning towards me before the terrier started, I would have had Skye beside me on the unextended flexi and there wouldn't have been a problem.
> 
> I guess it was also my fault because I expected, having warned the man and seeing Skye's hackles up to the extent that they were (and he's a longhair so there's a lot of hackles to stand up :lol, that he would call his dogs and take avoiding action - which he obviously didn't, so I still maintain he was irresponsible.


Personally I would put more blame onto the other owner but 'in law' unless the area is an actual leash control area then there would be shared blame I believe.
He must have been a pretty ignorant dog ower not to understand Skye's body language but as we all know not all owners are 'dog savvy' and can be pretty stupid at times.
On the muzzling issue.....I used to muzzle Vinnie at all times when outside my house, even in my yard and garden, he was people aggressive though not to dogs. When we walked he'd posture when people and their dogs walked by, they would ask if he didn't like other dogs with him being a mastiff, I used to tell them that no he'd play with the dog he wanted to eat them! Funnily enough I never ever had an unleashed dog walk upto Vinnie even though he loved other dogs.



feorag said:


> I didn't think whether or not I reprimanded him made a difference to what happened, so didn't think it was necessary to mention that.


Most on here know you and would already realise that you would have used training methods to let Skye know that what he was doing was wrog...not the easiest thing with him yanking your arms out though!





Kare said:


> What type of Flexi do you have? The ones with string are not really capable of holding back a GSD throwing their weight around to get somewhere and the Flexi Giant is full ribbon, and therefore capable of being grabbed and pulled back in a way you really can't do with a cord flexi. Maybe an upgrade is worth looking at.
> 
> I have to say if the guy was 100% in the wrong, but I would hate to see any dog injured to teach their owners a lesson. Therefore if I owned a dog I thought would react in a way that would cause actual injury to another dog, ie if the reaction of my dog was to bite to draw blood, and 90% of dog fights are wrestling matches not real fights, I would use a muzzle....and then carry a dog stop spray so I could defend my dog against attack.


Yes I used one of the flexi pony lunge lines that were out a long time ago before everyone realised they were crap for horses and only any good for large dogs!
There is no dog stop spary that would have stopped my mastiff if he had ever got loose around people. If he hadn't belonged to me, a responsible owner who trained him to voice commands, he'd have been PTS at only months old. At 7 years old he began ignoring me when I gave him voice commands, he was too big for me to control physically, that was when we decided to let him go as he became too dangerous around people. You couldn't have ased for a better family pet though, even with kids, he was perfect with us.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I hate owners who shout "Its ok, he/she only wants to play":bash:

The only dogs of mine that are let off the lead are the one I know will come back immediately when called, the rest run on a lunge line.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

jeweled lady said:


> Last week, a guy was lurking in the woods, couldn't see a dog at all. My two ran forward, too quick for me to grab and yes there was a dog there. This guy shouted to get my dogs away or he would "kick it". I could see Robbie very interested and wagging his tail! The man said "she's in a delicate condition". Of course the bitch was in season! Well if he couldn't handle her, then why walk her where other dogs go? It wasn't a problem for me and I called my dogs away. Some people get very touchy, really they are unable to cope with the situation in hand plain and simple.
> 
> My advice is to always have your dog on a short lead, unless you are sure there are no other dogs around. It does not have to wear a muzzle, unless it is people aggresive. However, if you feel happier then fit one. I would always advise this, then it can never be your fault if your dog is on the lead and will give you peace of mind. Only use a flexi if you are in an area with no other dogs. There is no way you can handle a large dog if it is distracted on a long lead. To give you greater control also use a Halti.


Regarding the first point - if I see a person anywhere in my vicinity, Skye is immediately called to heel and put on the lead, purely because that person could have a dog behind them that I can't see, so your situation in the woods wouldn't have happened to me. Also, as I've said he's only ever off lead when we are in a large open area or on the beach where my vision can see anything or anybody in the distance to be aware and warned and put Skye on the lead. When I walk Skye in woods, I go to a very isolated large wood almost in the borders, and he's on the lead for the very reason that I can't see clearly around me and anyone could walk around a corner with a dog at any minute. However, this wood does have long stretches of straight paths to walk, so he occasionally get short spurts of being off the lead until we approach a corner or a path and then I call him back and put him on the lead. As I've already said his recall is excellent, providing he doesn't see a dog in the *close* vicinity and as a GSD, he's never far from me, and never out of my sight unlike a lot of other breeds who given a huge wood would be off into the trees exploring.

Your second point I've already addressed previously, in that he is always on a short lease when there are dogs in the vicinity.

Also I do use a head collar for that very reason, however, on this occasion, we had gone out in the car to get to the field in question and when I picked up the flexi lead, I wrongly assumed that the head collar was still attached and it wasn't until I got out of the car that I realised I only had the flexi. So as far as our everday routine is concerned, he is always on a head collar and is always on a lead if there are dogs or people around, however his head collar wouldn't have made a difference that day.



Salazare Slytherin said:


> Over my dead body would I muzzle my dog, if a dog ever decided to bite JD I would at least want him too have the use of his only defence.


That is precisely the reason why I don't want to muzzle him. He's not the only dog aggressive dog around and I'm not happy to muzzle him and leave him without his own protection. If he was people aggressive, there's no doubt at all whatsoever that I would muzzle him, but he isn't.

I do want to make the point again that if the man had continued the path he was taking, Skye would have ignored the dogs as they would have been walked parallel to him and then away from him and he will ignore that. However, he will not ignore a dog making a direct approach - he knows what he's doing is wrong, but he acts instinctively when this happens and then thinks later. It is never a sustained attack (not that I'm justifying his actions by saying that) he goes for the dog, the dog usually retaliates and then he seems to realise what he's done and comes straight back to me.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

The thing is if you had taken on Skye with his issues some numpty would have taken him and he'd probably have been PTS by now.
I don't think he's going to change altogether but as you say he is getting better and without you he wouldn't have done.
What happened yesterday doesn't happen every day because you know your dog and can usually prevent it....if only others were as sensible or indeed knew their dogs as well!
A stronger flexi would definitely be an idea or even a lunge line that won't rip your hands to bits if anything like this happens again. I've had dogs run sto the end of a rope flexi and it just run straight out! That was just a sibe as well so nowhere near as big as Skye.

I know what you're saying when you say he can ignore a dog walking by or away from him but an insecure dog will never be able to ignore a dog who is coming at them barking and the other owner should know his dog does this and stop him doing it or it will eventually get hurt.
I hadn't realised he'd hit Skye! Did he hit his own dog? I'm afraid I would have knocked him out if he'd hit my dog.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Thanks Dawn. Skye came to us with lots of issues which have settled down as he has begun to realise that he's secure here.

I agree he's not going to change into an 'issue free' dog and we've accepted that, particularly the fact that he won't interact with dogs,but he's barely recognisable as the dog he was when we first got him. However, it means that we can never totally relax with him and have always to be on guard and that was why I was so disappointed at what happened on Friday!

Believe me if I had a £1 for every time I thought "I can't cope with this dog, he'll have to go back" I'd be rich, but what you've just said is what stopped me. It's not his fault the way he is - imao it's bad breeding and the breeder should not have been breeding from his father, who has the same issues and I was almost certain that if we sent him back, she would sell him again and he'd probably come back and eventually he would end up living out his days in a kennel in her back garden and I just couldn't hear that.

He hit him with a big white ball that he'd picked up which was lying in the middle of the field. I don't think it was an actual ball - it actually looked like a fishing float, certainly it had a handle otherwise he wouldn't have been able to hit him with it and keep it in his hand!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

feorag said:


> Thanks Dawn. Skye came to us with lots of issues which have settled down as he has begun to realise that he's secure here.
> 
> I agree he's not going to change into an 'issue free' dog and we've accepted that, particularly the fact that he won't interact with dogs,but he's barely recognisable as the dog he was when we first got him. However, it means that we can never totally relax with him and have always to be on guard and that was why I was so disappointed at what happened on Friday!
> 
> ...


 
I think I would have rammed the ball down his throat, stupid man:bash:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Believe me I wanted to do that, but I was too busy b*llocking the man about his attitude towards his own dogs at the time! :roll:


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

Wasnt your fault, his dogs cant take no for an answer from your dog, your dog was telling it look **** *** dont wanna play. Its alright they just wanna be friendly bleh who says yours wants to no concideration, and the fact he must have seen yours was on a liesh therefore his dogs were going to cause a hazard to you if they got tangled up. Hitting your dog is another thing, he has no right to do this, if your there then its your repsonsiblity to stop her/him which you were trying to do its diff if no one is there and the dog is going to kill the other dog, some folk really have nooooo clue how to manage their own dogs, then sommit goes wrong oh its not their fault is it nooooo its the 3rd party. Hope your dog is ok even tho it clearly can handle itself it will have frightened her/him surely.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

Really annoys me too, my Kayla is only a dot and when we go around the Malverns everyone just lets their dogs run right up to her.

Shes by my side in seconds eyeing the other dog up, shes only 6 months of corse shes nervous.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

people need to have control of their dogs at all times... period.

dogs should always be on a leash in public with a person that can control them... period.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

HABU said:


> people need to have control of their dogs at all times... period.
> *
> dogs should always be on a leash in public* with a person that can control them... period.


I just don't know that I agree with this - leads ask for completely unnatural dog greeting and lots of dogs can develop lead aggression because they're protective of their owner... Agree with 'a person that can control them' though. Dogs are self-teaching, too, so hopefully his collies will have been taught a valuable lesson by Skye because you can bet my dog wouldn't have approached a snarling dog with its hackles raised!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

annabel said:


> I just don't know that I agree with this - leads ask for completely unnatural dog greeting and lots of dogs can develop lead aggression because they're protective of their owner... Agree with 'a person that can control them' though. Dogs are self-teaching, too, so hopefully his collies will have been taught a valuable lesson by Skye because you can bet my dog wouldn't have approached a snarling dog with its hackles raised!


 
i don't allow my dogs to mingle with strange dogs or strays out walking... it's just asking for trouble... not from my dogs but some crazy dog belonging to a clueless owner...

"... he won't bite... he's never done that before... i don't know what got into him... your dog started it... that's strange, normally he loves other dogs..." how many times have i heard these things after an incident from people?...


dogs may be self teaching to a degree... they often teach themselves very unacceptable things...

i hate going to the veternarian because of all the dogs in the waiting room... i don't trust strange dogs... i trust mine... not these mental dogs that most people seem to have...


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

The bloke is in the wrong for letting his dogs do that! But i think Skye should have a muzzle just to cover yourself. In that situation when the man was hitting skye if skye bit him then more trouble could of happened. Even if skye was on a lead and under control accidents can still happen like this situation because of irresponsible owners. I used to hate putting a muzzle on sammy she hated it too but it was for the best as you just never know. I'm glad nothing bad has come of it though and in a way that man might have learned something which is to be more careful.


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## rubberbiscuit (Jan 5, 2009)

It always amazes me the amount of dog owners who cant seem to read even basic dog body language..even the easy stuff like growling or snarling!!
I walk my lot off lead for 2 reasons, 1-so they can socialise with other polite dogs which is important for them, also 2-if approached by an off lead dog when they are on lead they are petrified coz they feel trapped and can become defensive. 
I get annoyed with hearing that my dogs are unfriendly or nasty too by idiot owners who havent got a clue. My 3 will be happily sniffing and playing when suddenly a much larger dog comes crashing into them and looms over them, pawing them. When their stiff posture, tail tuck and growling is ignored 2 of them will snap at noses (they have never actually bitten another dog and I doubt they would). I then get told mine are unfriendly coz their dog 'was only playing/being friendly'!!:devil:
Oddly enough they are actually ok around some DA dogs coz being very tiny and totally submissive and polite they tend not to push their buttons and force a confrontation (which alot of 'friendly' dogs will do).


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

i would say the thread maker is *NOT *in the wrong. The law stated ALL dogs must be under control. as his 3 were clearly harassing his leaded dog the dog felt it had to defend its self and so it did. as long as it could be proved eg witnesses his dogs could be put down for as little as that (owners dont realise this is still breaking the law) and other dog owners get anoyed but feel if they take them to court its the dog that suffers. its the same as 3 teens or ...... walking around you going oi oi oi what you looking at bla bla bla you would feel like defending yourself. I have had many dogs do the same to mine and growling so on happens owners always seem not to care until the dog growls which really is far to late. sadly mine have also done this to others when they come round the corner or something and no matter if its friendly or not i run over put them on a lead and walk off, saying sorry. sadly it will not change as sooo many people dont control there dogs since owned my first dog 3 of mine (old and current) have been attacked by "friendly" dogs running over to say hi then turns bad, luckly all were large strong breeds and luckly i can *JUST *about tell them to leave and even while geting bitten they will let go of the attacking dog. if people understood how easy there dog can be classed as a dangerous dog and sued under the act and people sued them for it eg letter there dog run over to your child and jump at it (jack russel even) "just saying hello" scare the child thats enough to sue under the act as its clearly not under control. maybe then people will learn and keep them under control no matter what its around. if off a lead NOT coming over to meet other dogs or people *until* you spoke to the people to make sure they are fine with it. anyway thats my little moan over :devil:


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

ryanr1987 said:


> The bloke is in the wrong for letting his dogs do that! But i think Skye should have a muzzle just to cover yourself. In that situation when the man was hitting skye if skye bit him then more trouble could of happened. Even if skye was on a lead and under control accidents can still happen like this situation because of irresponsible owners. I used to hate putting a muzzle on sammy she hated it too but it was for the best as you just never know. I'm glad nothing bad has come of it though and in a way that man might have learned something which is to be more careful.


though i dont agree he should muzzle skye (unless hes like that with every dog even ones he meets safely not unknown so on)just thought people may want to know: though it takes a very skilled dog trainer its possible to train a dog (of course larger breeds only and well balanced dog)which wears a muzzle to pin down humans even other animals. this with a fully working fixed in place muzzle its an amzing site to see a well trained one can do it and do it well its AMAZING


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

dizzylynn said:


> Wasnt your fault, his dogs cant take no for an answer from your dog, your dog was telling it look **** *** dont wanna play. Its alright they just wanna be friendly bleh who says yours wants to no concideration, and the fact he must have seen yours was on a liesh therefore his dogs were going to cause a hazard to you if they got tangled up. Hitting your dog is another thing, he has no right to do this, if your there then its your repsonsiblity to stop her/him which you were trying to do its diff if no one is there and the dog is going to kill the other dog, some folk really have nooooo clue how to manage their own dogs, then sommit goes wrong oh its not their fault is it nooooo its the 3rd party. Hope your dog is ok even tho it clearly can handle itself it will have frightened her/him surely.


It's not just owners who are unable to read body language I'm afraid. I have one i particular here who has no idea when a dog is telling him to F O**. Granted he's only 5 inches tall and even a rabbit intimidates him but if he were bigger that could really casue problems!



HABU said:


> people need to have control of their dogs at all times... period.
> 
> dogs should always be on a leash in public with a person that can control them... period.


In the UK unless it is stated in the particular area there is no law to say that all dogs need to be on a lead. It's only stated that they should be under control! Until an 'under control' dog off lead attacks or harasses then it's not deemed 'out of control'....stupid I know but that's how it is. In the same way if an 'on lead' dog attacks then it is deemed 'out of control' because had it been under control it would not have been able to attack..or that is the way the law looks at it most times.



philipniceguy said:


> i would say the thread maker is *NOT *in the wrong. The law stated ALL dogs must be under control. as his 3 were clearly harassing his leaded dog the dog felt it had to defend its self and so it did. as long as it could be proved eg witnesses his dogs could be put down for as little as that (owners dont realise this is still breaking the law) and other dog owners get anoyed but feel if they take them to court its the dog that suffers. its the same as 3 teens or ...... walking around you going oi oi oi what you looking at bla bla bla you would feel like defending yourself. I have had many dogs do the same to mine and growling so on happens owners always seem not to care until the dog growls which really is far to late. sadly mine have also done this to others when they come round the corner or something and no matter if its friendly or not i run over put them on a lead and walk off, saying sorry. sadly it will not change as sooo many people dont control there dogs since owned my first dog 3 of mine (old and current) have been attacked by "friendly" dogs running over to say hi then turns bad, luckly all were large strong breeds and luckly i can *JUST *about tell them to leave and even while geting bitten they will let go of the attacking dog. if people understood how easy there dog can be classed as a dangerous dog and sued under the act and people sued them for it eg letter there dog run over to your child and jump at it (jack russel even) "just saying hello" scare the child thats enough to sue under the act as its clearly not under control. maybe then people will learn and keep them under control no matter what its around. if off a lead NOT coming over to meet other dogs or people *until* you spoke to the people to make sure they are fine with it. anyway thats my little moan over :devil:


Unfotunately even an on lead dog can be out of control!
I've seen an lead dog drag it's owner over to another on lead dog and kill it.......was it under control? NO.
Under control does not mean 'on lead'.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Eileen I think you're doing a sterling job with Skye I've been there and it's damed hard work.

Just look on this experience as one tha tyou'll be able to prevent in future and hopefully it hasn't affected Skye as much as it seems to have affected you. Don't let it spoil your walks!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Thanks Dawn. It hasn't affected him at all - it happened and he's forgotten it. He's never been good with other dogs because he doesn't understand 'dog language' - he just doesn't know how to behave around other dogs. 

As an experiment we did exactly the same thing today. There was no-one on the field, so I let him off and then walked to the hedgerow and he puttered about close to me as I picked hawthorn berries. At one stage someone came into the field quite a distance from us on a bike with a boxer off lead, heading away from us. He saw it and I saw it and called him to heel and he came straight to me, I put the lead on until the dog was across the other side of the field - no problem.

As long as the dog isn't in his immediately vicinity and coming towards him he's fine and so I just remain vigilant.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

where i live there are tons of stray dogs and people never use a leash... they just let their dogs out to roam around the neighborhood... tons of cats too!

these folks don't walk their dogs... i'm the oddity walking my dogs...

nothing but mangy. half starved dogs here running in small packs... the dog pound comes through every year to round up all the stray dogs and cats... if someone's dog doesn't come home then, "oh well..."...

and i live next to train tracks... dead cats and dogs all along the tracks...

i keep my dogs away from the other dogs here... not many dogs here have their shots or have ever seen a veterinarian... and they crap everywhere...


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

HABU said:


> where i live there are tons of stray dogs and people never use a leash... they just let their dogs out to roam around the neighborhood... tons of cats too!
> 
> these folks don't walk their dogs... i'm the oddity walking my dogs...
> 
> ...


That must be awful...not only for the risk to your own dogs but just to see the poor things in that condition.

I thought that the US, or at least most of the states, had a strict leash law!
Just goes to show that the tv here can mislead us.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

feorag said:


> On Friday I took Skye to the huge field opposite our shopping centre to go and pick hawthorn berries down the hedgerow. We walked onto the field from the centre top entrance opposite our shopping centre. I saw right at the other end of the field a man with 2 rough collies, so I let Skye off to have a run about and waited until he'd done his business, picked it up and then put him on the flexi lead. The guy with the 2 collies was about in the middle of the field heading straight up the centre of the field towards the exit I had come in on, so I walked over to the hedgerow and began to pick some hawthorn berries for the Squiggles.
> 
> I kept checking on the guy as he got closer and then I heard barking and saw a Jack Russell heading towards me mouthing off. Because I was using both hands to grab branches, the flexi was extended by about 4-5feet, making it about 7-8 feet long. The guy never called the dog and at first I didn't even realise it belonged to him, but as there was no-one else on the field I assumed that it did.
> 
> ...


 
Dogs will naturally want to greet another dog. 
If your dog has been allowed to act aggressively either on or off the lead towards other dogs then it should be muzzled, or walked/ran on private ground with no other dogs until this behaviour has be corrected. Granted that he came with issues. Don't allow those issuse to affect your own tension and body language though.

You didn't have full control of your dog as it was on an extending lead. Extending leads are not good walking leads esp' for larger breeds. Granted the other walker did not have full control of his dogs but from what you have said they were not acting aggressively.

Not what you want to hear no doubt. Cuddles would be nicer but I'm looking at it from a cold/dog related point of view.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Yes dogs do naturally wish to meet other dogs they may also naturally wish to eat everything they see and mark their territory by peeing up the Tv cabinet. Doesn't mean you don't train them not to.

Where I live there is a beach where dogs are free to greet other dogs, the culture of that beach is if your dog is off lead it is free to be greeted, I love it and walk there as often as possible. It is accepted it is not a good place to walk a dog with issues against being greeted. I wish more places where like this. However I can honestly say I have met few dogs other than pups there who are not trained to listen when told not to go to dogs on leads, or sumply know on some level themselves not to.

However I walk my dogs elsewhere where running up to another dog is not accepted. 

In both the case where they meet a dog on lead in the first example, or see any dog at all off lead in the other they are expected to heed my word when I say Stay!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Caz said:


> Dogs will naturally want to greet another dog.
> If your dog has been allowed to act aggressively either on or off the lead towards other dogs then it should be muzzled, or walked/ran on private ground with no other dogs until this behaviour has be corrected. Granted that he came with issues. Don't allow those issuse to affect your own tension and body language though.
> 
> You didn't have full control of your dog as it was on an extending lead. Extending leads are not good walking leads esp' for larger breeds. Granted the other walker did not have full control of his dogs but from what you have said they were not acting aggressively.
> ...


I don't have a problem with your point of view at all. I realised that I was partially at fault because his lead was extended about 6-8 feet from me and when the terrier started barking he tightened the lead and then I had no chance to reel him in, so I accept that I was in the wrong insofaras that is concerned.

His issus don't affect my body language or make me tense, under normal circumstances, as I've said I sit him to heel and give him the "Leave" command, or alternatively the "Watch" command, so he focuses on me, but he's a very hyper dog and is in the moment, so if he has a dog running towards him, he just doesn't hear me and it's too late. In that respect I accepted the blame for that.

However, as far as the other walker is concerned, it wasn't a case of him not having full control of his dogs, it was the fact that he made no attempt whatsoever to control his dogs at all - he never once called them to him and that was my point. My dog was obviously extremely agitated - he wasn't barking or growling, but his hackles were up and he was definitely not looking like he wanted to be friends, yet this man ignored all that and me telling him that my dog didn't want to be friends and still allowed his dog to walk up to mine.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

saxon said:


> That must be awful...not only for the risk to your own dogs but just to see the poor things in that condition.
> 
> I thought that the US, or at least most of the states, had a strict leash law!
> Just goes to show that the tv here can mislead us.


 
there are strict leash laws and all dogs must have it's rabies shot and license...

but laws are words written in dusty books... no one cares about dogs here being legal... cops are busy looking for meth labs and pill heads...

people here walk their dogs simply by opening the screen door and letting them loose into the neighborhood...

if they come home... good... if they don't... oh well... the train got another one...


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

saxon said:


> Unfotunately even an on lead dog can be out of control!
> I've seen an lead dog drag it's owner over to another on lead dog and kill it.......was it under control? NO.
> Under control does not mean 'on lead'.


I never stated a dog on a lead is all ways under control. i sadly have also seen dogs on leads pulling owner along the floor to attack other dogs including one german shep which pulled its owner across the ground to my dog luckly it was only to say hi but hopefully owner learned how to teach his dog to leave/heal. But fact is alot more off lead dogs run upto kids/adults and other dogs and harass them, making them then classed as out of control. enough for the owner to be sued if more understood and more reported it, more owners would train there dogs to be a good safe off lead dog as well as a safe on lead dog. round my area alot of dogs get out of back gardens and run around loose since i moved here i have seen and reported 5 which all my years living elsewhere never see one "loose dog"


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## Tds79 (Nov 6, 2010)

saxon said:


> It's not just owners who are unable to read body language I'm afraid. I have one i particular here who has no idea when a dog is telling him to F O**. Granted he's only 5 inches tall and even a rabbit intimidates him but if he were bigger that could really casue problems!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If that is the case then why is it the police deem a dog off lead not to be under control....not being picky, just working with dogs and having to deal with a few nightmare owners the police & courts have always stated that a dog off lead cannot be classed as being under control. 

I won't voice my opinion of dogs off lead as i have said before about it and it didn't go down well. 

Feorag I hope Skye is ok ? and you are too ? I know this kinda thing can shake the owner up as well as the dog, I have had something similar with my dog, who is not dog friendly and it is a horrible thing to go through so really hope your both ok x 
Sadly it is owners like him that is the reason other dog owners have to suffer and dog attacks tend to happen, whats even more sad is they never learn.

**edit** think i read your post wrong Saxon, so sorry if i did.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes both Skye and I are fine - I just chalk it down to experience and try to learn from it.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

philipniceguy said:


> I never stated a dog on a lead is all ways under control. i sadly have also seen dogs on leads pulling owner along the floor to attack other dogs including one german shep which pulled its owner across the ground to my dog luckly it was only to say hi but hopefully owner learned how to teach his dog to leave/heal. But fact is alot more off lead dogs run upto kids/adults and other dogs and harass them, making them then classed as out of control. enough for the owner to be sued if more understood and more reported it, more owners would train there dogs to be a good safe off lead dog as well as a safe on lead dog. round my area alot of dogs get out of back gardens and run around loose since i moved here i have seen and reported 5 which all my years living elsewhere never see one "loose dog"


Yeh, I moved just across a river, same city, and now I see dogs running free ALL the time, there is also dog poo everywhere, a lot of irresponsible dog owners over here. Never had 'loose dogs' where I was before. How do you report them? catch them and report them as stray so the owners have to pay if they want them back? 

I don't like any offlead dogs anymore, apart from there are a couple of springers and cocker spaniels around here who never aproach anyone, they stay by their owners side and chase a ball, totally no interest in anything else. It's made me want a spaniel actually :flrt:


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

em_40 said:


> Yeh, I moved just across a river, same city, and now I see dogs running free ALL the time, there is also dog poo everywhere, a lot of irresponsible dog owners over here. Never had 'loose dogs' where I was before. How do you report them? catch them and report them as stray so the owners have to pay if they want them back?
> 
> I don't like any offlead dogs anymore, apart from there are a couple of springers and cocker spaniels around here who never aproach anyone, they stay by their owners side and chase a ball, totally no interest in anything else. It's made me want a spaniel actually :flrt:


ring the dog warden they come pick it up (most of the time next day) they ring the owner and give them a fine, hopefully that teaches the owners a lesson but if its got a collar on i just catch it and phone owner unless it happens again:lol2:


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