# Chilean rose in trouble



## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

My chilean rose has been very lathargic for about 12 hours now. At about 8am it moved from one side of the tank to the other, but has now started to curl up and isn't moving even when nudged. I know about ICU and how to do it, but I'm scared of making it worse for her. Is there a chance she's already dead baring in mind she moved this morning? 

Here's a link to another forum I posted earlier but haven't heard from anyone for a while. The last post has a picture of the curl she's in at the moment.

http://www.tarantulas.us/forums/showthread.php?t=25304


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

Is she an old spider?


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

I don't know how old she is. She's a fully grown adult but that means she could be anywhere over 6. I've had her about 12 months and I'd say she's grown a little so maybe she's around 6 years old.


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

You could try an ICU i guess, you have nothing to lose! Here's a link that might help 
YouTube - How to Make an ICU for your Tarantula


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

What conditions was she kept in? Sub', temp' etc does she have access to fresh water? When did she last shed? How old is she? It would be a good idea to put her in an ICU because even if she is shedding it wont harm her just be really careful moving her.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I need to register to see that image...


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Stelios said:


> What conditions was she kept in? Sub', temp' etc deos she have access to fresh water? When did she last shed? How old is she? Wold be a good idea to put her in an ICU because even if she is shedding it wont harm her just be really careful moving her.


She's in a beginners terrarium, temperature's always been steady at around 25'c (roughly 70'f), she's got about two inches of bark on the bottom, a hideout, plant and fresh water. She last shed about 6 months ago. I thought maybe she was shedding again but now she's curled up I doubt it. I don't know the age. All I know is she's fully grown.


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

GRB said:


> I need to register to see that image...


How do I post an attachment on here?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

firefly89 said:


> She's in a beginners terrarium, temperature's always been steady at around 25'c (roughly 70'f), she's got about two inches of bark on the bottom, a hideout, plant and fresh water. She last shed about 6 months ago. I thought maybe she was shedding again but now she's curled up I doubt it. I don't know the age. All I know is she's fully grown.



The bark needs to go! I'd personally get a brick of coco coir.


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Try the ICU, I hope she pulls through.


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Try this link to see a picture of her. You can see the bark she's on aswell. It's not proper bark but I don't know what to call it. It's like wood chippings.

Jenny Stubbs | Facebook


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

if she's been on that bark all this time, I highly doubt it's responsible for her condition.

Has anything changed in her environment in the last couple of weeks eg temperature, humidity, food consumed, water availability etc etc, has anything been sprayed in her vicinity such as air fresheners or perfume?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

It still needs to go. Some orchid bark contains wood from tree toxic to invertebrates such as cedar. This slowly kills things like tarantulas.

It's actually hard to see from that pic. It does look like it's legs are curling, but then if it moults dorsally (which ocurrs under times of stress) then they can look like they are dying (and it would explain the lethargy and lack of movement).

You'll know if she dies; they either go totally limp and collapse or the legs curl under completely and they end up sitting on their knees basically, like this:

http://image52.webshots.com/52/1/57/90/2571157900018179410rNAueo_fs.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_CSy2-zb0qg0/Ru1ukGHt2rI/AAAAAAAAF2E/DUjbV7Dvfdw/IMGP1586.JPG


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

GRB said:


> It still needs to go. Some orchid bark contains wood from tree toxic to invertebrates such as cedar. This slowly kills things like tarantulas.
> 
> It's actually hard to see from that pic. It does look like it's legs are curling, but then if it moults dorsally (which ocurrs under times of stress) then they can look like they are dying (and it would explain the lethargy and lack of movement).
> 
> ...


yep I didn't mean it didn't need to go, just that it wasn't imperative that it went NOW.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

garlicpickle said:


> yep I didn't mean it didn't need to go, just that it wasn't imperative that it went NOW.


No, I agree it's not going to explode or anything this minute... I posted before I noticed your reply : victory:
:lol2:


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

I would change the bark while it's in an ICU, that way if it makes it it'll be going on a decent substrate


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Ok well she needs cleaning anyway so what can I put on the bottom that would be suitable? I've moved her into a box with a warm damp towel on the bottom, the lid slightly off but then the box is in the tank so if she does come round she can go straight back into her home. 

The only thing that's change is the food we started giving her. We've always had it from the same people, but the last two months we've been keeping the locusts and crickets alive on bug gel by ProRep. Before we just used to give them apple and lettuce but then we switched to this prorep stuff. Could that do any harm?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

firefly89 said:


> Ok well she needs cleaning anyway so what can I put on the bottom that would be suitable? I've moved her into a box with a warm damp towel on the bottom, the lid slightly off but then the box is in the tank so if she does come round she can go straight back into her home.
> 
> The only thing that's change is the food we started giving her. We've always had it from the same people, but the last two months we've been keeping the locusts and crickets alive on bug gel by ProRep. Before we just used to give them apple and lettuce but then we switched to this prorep stuff. Could that do any harm?


You could change it to anything soil based, for a few years before the coir i used peat, as long as i microwaved it for a while to kill off anything that could be lurking in there it was fine! 

I doubt the gel would do anything to the T as it's inside the food, but the T itself won't be able to drink it


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

If by some slim chance she is just moulting upright, is it still safe for her to be in ICU? About midday we nudged her and although she didn't move, one of her legs did twitch. From what you've all said it just sounds like she's slowly giving up, maybe through dehydration. I'm so new to this tarantula stuff so I have no idea what I'm doing. The bark was given to me by the man in the petshop, who sold nothing but tarantulas so I assumed I was getting the best advice.


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

If she is moulting upright then i wouldn't touch her at all! I had a red knee moult upright on me the other day and it came out fine! But you need to be sure what you're dealing with here before you start poking about with her


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

We lifted her up on a piece of card so she hasn't been poked exactly but she's in the ICU now. Hopefully she is just moulting. She's my first T and got me over my fear of spiders. I'm worried that I might think she's dead when she isn't.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

If she is moulting leave her be as suggested by Tim.

Basically, if she is dying you can do nothing more anyway; constant prodding only speeds this up. If she is moulting then constant prodding leads to stress and ultimately death. It's unlikely that a G.rosea would die from dehydration unless it has not eaten in a very long time (it's not impossible but it's an arid adapted species). 

So, since she is in ICU i'd leave her somewhere stable and dark, and check on her now and again (i.e tonight and then tomorrow morning). Sadly, if they die they tend to do things in their own time (and Grammostola do things very gradually), which can be quite demoralising.


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

We put her in a long box and left her and she's now at the other end, which means she's moved. Her legs are twitching again. It's looking hopeful. You guys are great! Thanks for being so helpful to someone with absolutely no idea! 
One thing, before this bad spell today, she hadn't eaten for two months and was webbing everywhere and running all over the place, much faster than usual. Is it possible she needs to moult but didn't have the energy to carry it out, and that if she gets hydrated again she may moult?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

That's the curse of the chile rose, they hardly ever eat!


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

firefly89 said:


> We put her in a long box and left her and she's now at the other end, which means she's moved. Her legs are twitching again. It's looking hopeful. You guys are great! Thanks for being so helpful to someone with absolutely no idea!
> One thing, before this bad spell today, she hadn't eaten for two months and was webbing everywhere and running all over the place, much faster than usual. Is it possible she needs to moult but didn't have the energy to carry it out, and that if she gets hydrated again she may moult?


I wouldn't think it was about energy, it's hard to fathom how little food they need. They're not throwing away energy heating themselves like we do, so they can do things like go 18 months without eating... without loosing weight or suffering in any way.

This may sound daft to some people, esp. considering the size of that abdomen, but I'm wondering about the running around and not eating thing... MM? (Mature Male).
I know it's probably not, but it might be worth considering. Though I doubt a rosea MM would burn out in 6 months would it?


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

She seems to be doing ok. Her spinners are constantly moving and her legs are slightly more outwards. Not much difference overnight but she's no worse. She could be a male. Like I said, I'm only a beginner and I bought her from a guy who sold nothing but spiders so I assumed he was telling me the truth but it turns out she's much older than I thought so it wouldn't surprise me if it was male.


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

She's been in ICU now for 24 hours and we're getting concerned that the paper towel was getting cold very fast, so we've put the towel in the bottom of the tank so that if she feels up to it she can crawl back into the tank. She's still on the towel at the moment though. Although her spinners are moving, there's really not much more activity. Is there anything else I could do because I honestly can't see her pulling through.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

firefly89 said:


> She's been in ICU now for 24 hours and we're getting concerned that the paper towel was getting cold very fast, so we've put the towel in the bottom of the tank so that if she feels up to it she can crawl back into the tank. She's still on the towel at the moment though. Although her spinners are moving, there's really not much more activity. Is there anything else I could do because I honestly can't see her pulling through.


 
Not really. If "she" is in ICU and kept reasonably warm then if she is dying, it will be a slow enough process. 

What I'd do personally would be go and check some pictures of pedipalps to see the difference between male and females. It's really easy to tell the sex if it's an adult male. If she is actually a he, then this might explain the rapid loss of condition. If it was also knowingly missold then you have a case for refund etc.


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

If he has any of these that this picture is pointing to then he could be a male. Look to see if the end of his palps look swollen. Also look on his front legs and about half way down if it's a male you should see hooks


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Does it make any difference if it's a male or female?


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## ducks (Mar 28, 2010)

Mature males have a fairly short life-span....


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## 5thPhantom (Feb 8, 2010)

Its only relevant for the fact that males die relatively soon after their final maturing moult (ie. when they gain the leg hooks and the swollen palps, and are therefore ready to mate). Passing on after maturing (although admittedly usually more than 6 months down the line) is simply nature's way if your T is male. Pet shops can be a little bit naughty for passing off male T's as females (who would have many more years of life after maturing to adulthood) to unsuspecting novice keepers. 

How is s/he doing now?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

firefly89 said:


> Does it make any difference if it's a male or female?



A male will mature, then pace around for a few months then die. So if it is male it will explain why it's the way it is right now


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## Ch+Stewie (Sep 19, 2009)

Hedgewitch said:


> I wouldn't think it was about energy, it's hard to fathom how little food they need. They're not throwing away energy heating themselves like we do, so they can do things like go 18 months without eating... without loosing weight or suffering in any way.


That's incredible! Sorry I don't have any advice because I know nothing about spiders... just thought that was an interesting fact!


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

She's not great. She's just sitting there. Don't really wanna go poking her to see if she's male or female. If she dies then I'll check then but I just want her to come round now. Shenot really moving at all except for just lifting her leg then putting it down again.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=12349553&id=668475642

There's a picture of her about 5 mins ago.


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## Theevilreddevil (Oct 30, 2008)

i fort u put it in icu


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

I did but the paper towel she was on was going cold within a few minutes and I was worried about how that would affect her, so I put the towel in the tank for her to go on but where it was warmer.


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## ducks (Mar 28, 2010)

Tim's pic of the palps is excellent, I couldn't get one at all.

this is the clearest pic of the tibial hooks on our male. They are on the first set only, though the second set of legs have hairs at the join that look like a smaller version from some angles:


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

I'm not home at the mo but my brother says he can see the hooks on the front legs. Does this mean she is in fact a he? I don't understand the other way of sexing them.


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## danza (Mar 31, 2009)

firefly89 said:


> I'm not home at the mo but my brother says he can see the hooks on the front legs. Does this mean she is in fact a he? I don't understand the other way of sexing them.


Well, yes. It does mean that, so long as what he's seeing/describing conforms to the picture shown above.


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## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

danza said:


> Well, yes. It does mean that, so long as what he's seeing/describing conforms to the picture shown above.


 Ah but he could be an about tarsus claw he's on about.


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## danza (Mar 31, 2009)

My plague said:


> Ah but he could be an about tarsus claw he's on about.


Well yes, but going by that picture, the tarsi aren't clearly visible.

Although, hopefully that's what it is, and the spider will pull through. 

Looking at the Facebook photos, it does look a bit too much of a fat biffer to be a mature male. Perhaps it is a she...


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## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

danza said:


> Well yes, but going by that picture, the tarsi aren't clearly visible.
> 
> Although, hopefully that's what it is, and the spider will pull through.
> 
> Looking at the Facebook photos, it does look a bit too much of a fat biffer to be a mature male. Perhaps it is a she...


 That's just a picture, this guy can see it at different angles


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## danza (Mar 31, 2009)

My plague said:


> That's just a picture, this guy can see it at different angles


Indeed he can. However, I was (perhaps mistakenly) under the impression that he was comparing the picture with the spider and looking at the area as photographed. Like I said though, the spider looks pretty hefty to be a MM.

That aside, fingers crossed it's ok.


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## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

danza said:


> Indeed he can. However, I was (perhaps mistakenly) under the impression that he was comparing the picture with the spider and looking at the area as photographed. Like I said though, the spider looks pretty hefty to be a MM.
> 
> That aside, fingers crossed it's ok.


 Ah yeah I see where you're coming from. And yeah it does look rather big and bulky for a male


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Last night we put her on the wet towel inside the tank and by this morning she'd moved off it, about a couple of inches. She's not moved since though this morning. We put a very small locust in because of her not eating for so long, thinking she might be hungry, but she's not interested. She's had the water towel for 2 days now and there's not been loads of improvement.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

firefly89 said:


> Last night we put her on the wet towel inside the tank and by this morning she'd moved off it, about a couple of inches. She's not moved since though this morning. We put a very small locust in because of her not eating for so long, thinking she might be hungry, but she's not interested. She's had the water towel for 2 days now and there's not been loads of improvement.


At the risk of being harsh, you are clearly not listening to the advice here. At least 2 people, including myself have told you to stop poking her about and moving her around. So why did you move her again and add a food item? Why are you changing the substrate all the time? It's not going to get "too cold" unless the room she is in is also too cold. 

Stop moving her around, and stop trying to feed. 

If I were you, I'd be reading up on how to identify mature males so that you can be 100% certain it's either an adult male or a female / juvenile male. 

As I've (and others) have said already, if she/he is dying there is not a great deal you can do, and certainly it's not something worth prolonging. If it was a pre moult stage all this moving around is going to increase the stress of it. Incidentally, no they cannot "put it off" and she will just moult when she needs to whether it's the right conditions of not. Moving substrate and containers is just adding to stress levels.


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Ok, first of all, I'm not 'poking' her. I moved her because it was too cold. The thermometer said so. We've tried every room in the house and it's not keeping her warm enough. Don't tell me to keep her warm and then criticise me for moving her when it says that the environments clearly too cold. We didn't 'add' a food item either. We put it in front of her for 30 seconds to see if it made her flinch at all, it didn't so we took it out. It's not bouncing around inside the tank with her.

When I move her I'm not even touching her wth my hands, I'm simply lifting her out on the paper towel. I understand this is movement, but considering some people have recommended flipping her on her back and dripping water into her mouth, I don't think it's any worse than that. Also, you're saying put her mouth in the water, which is what we're doing and suddenly I'm not supposed to be touching her? How do I do it then?

And I'm replacing the paper towel when it dries out, otherwise what's the point in having it there? It needs to be damp right? So I'm replacing it when its dried out, which it has done a couple of times in two days, and I'm only replacing it when she's not standing on it, therefore not moving her.

Don't tell me I'm not listening. I'm trying my best and trying to take on everyone's advice about this. Also, everyone's saying about male/female, it's very hard to see these things without gawping at her and touching her so how am I supposed to do that without stressing her out?

I'm very grateful for everyone's advice and I've already thanked everyone for contributing to helping me, and noted over again that I'm a beginner. I still am grateful for suggestions and I'm trying my hardest to make her better again.


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## kevhutch (Feb 18, 2010)

firefly89 said:


> Ok, first of all, I'm not 'poking' her. I moved her because it was too cold. The thermometer said so. We've tried every room in the house and it's not keeping her warm enough. Don't tell me to keep her warm and then criticise me for moving her when it says that the environments clearly too cold. We didn't 'add' a food item either. We put it in front of her for 30 seconds to see if it made her flinch at all, it didn't so we took it out. It's not bouncing around inside the tank with her.
> 
> When I move her I'm not even touching her wth my hands, I'm simply lifting her out on the paper towel. I understand this is movement, but considering some people have recommended flipping her on her back and dripping water into her mouth, I don't think it's any worse than that. Also, you're saying put her mouth in the water, which is what we're doing and suddenly I'm not supposed to be touching her? How do I do it then?
> 
> ...


Everyone was once a beginner, and panic does set in

It is out of your hands so you have to do your best, if he/she is going to die, it will die not a lot you can do about it


why not just drip water on to the paper towel to keep it moist

good luck with this

Cheers Kev


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

In my opinion ICU isn't likely to be of any real benefit unfortunately. ICU usually proves useful only when the spider is suffering from dehydration or haemolymph loss - both spectacularly unlikely in your case.

The abdomen is of a good size, and is likely full of nourishment. There is the possibility that the anus is blocked and the abdomen is full of backed up fecal matter, but this is rare. Does the lower rear of the abdomen appear to be "caked up" with a whitish substance at all?

You mention that she has been feeding on locusts? What temperature are these kept at? Locusts develop a toxic substance in their gut if not kept at very high temperatures - this can adversely affect the feeding tarantula. I unfortunately lost many rare and prized specimens after feeding from a batch of locusts last year. I also know of several others that have experienced losses and know of a few spiders that have fallen ill of late after feeding on locusts. I'd happily go on record and state that locusts do not make suitable feeder stock for tarantulas - The risks far outweigh the benefits.

Have you had the opportunity to check around the mouth parts? The presence of a whitish discharge may be cause for concern.


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Danhalen said:


> In my opinion ICU isn't likely to be of any real benefit unfortunately. ICU usually proves useful only when the spider is suffering from dehydration or haemolymph loss - both spectacularly unlikely in your case.
> 
> The abdomen is of a good size, and is likely full of nourishment. There is the possibility that the anus is blocked and the abdomen is full of backed up fecal matter, but this is rare. Does the lower rear of the abdomen appear to be "caked up" with a whitish substance at all?
> 
> ...


We assumed dehydration was what was wrong because about 20mins after we put her in ICU, she started moving again, so it started to look promising but there's been no real improvements since then.
There's no white substance on her back end or around her mouth. To be honest, she doesn't look any different to what she's always looked like. The abdomen has always been that size, she's not changed colour at all or developed any sort of white stuff, it's just simply the lethargy and non-movement, when normally she's a very active spider.
The locusts are kept in a tank of their own at the same temperature as the spider tank. The only thing is we order them from a reptile company so they come through the post. Maybe if they're not kept warm in transit then the toxin develops. Having said that, we've always ordered from them for nearly a year now, and we alternate between crickets and locusts.

Thanks Kev for the suggestion. Will try it.


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## ShouldIBeDamned (Aug 24, 2008)

The last time my chile molted she hadn't eaten for over a year, was literally dragging herself around and I honestly thought she was on her last legs. Then one morning I found her on her back. If she looks ok and is moving, chances are it could be a molt coming up.

I would probably put a shallow dish of water in as well as the damp paper towel just to be sure, if she can move then she'll probably be able to get to it ok.

Hope she pulls through for you, just try not to worry (easier said than done I know) sounds like you've done all you can but as said before, the less you move her around the better really : victory:


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## portmanlady (Apr 17, 2010)

really hope things get better my bruce when i woke up this morning was on his back first time we had seen it thought he was on the way out ws so freaked out corse he had done it before but hadnt seen it he look ok now


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## firefly89 (May 15, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for their help but I think my Chile has passed on. There's been no movement for a few days, no spinners moving, no legs moving. Her legs haven't curled under her much and there's no smell but I'm pretty certain she's died.


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Sorry to hear that.


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry, chin up mate.


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## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

Aw dude, that's pretty uh, crap. Sorry to hear it..


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