# Imported African pygmy hedgehogs



## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

There has been a sudden increase in the amount of imported African pygmy hedgehogs being brought into the UK illegally over the last few months.
There has been cases in ireland were hogs have been brought in with a great number of them being DOA or severly ill.
I have heard from a quarentine kennels that a lady recently enquired about putting some hogs into quaranteen but the lady phoned them back to say she didnt need to, this is not the case and people should be aware of that.
There are also some pet shops in the UK selling imported hogs.
I just want to make it clear to everyone that any hedgehog imported, that includes from within the EU (so dont be told otherwise) must have been through 6 months quaranteen. This also includes hogs that have been imported into Ireland and then made thier way over here for whatever reason.
If you are intending to purchase a hog from a pet store, i recommend against it, its always best to buy from a breeder in whatever animal you buy. If the pet shop is happy to give you information on where the hogs have come from and lineage information then thats fair enough, but unlikely to happen in most cases.
If you are buying hogs that have been imported you must ask to see the quarenteen certificate, this includes if you are buying offspring of imported hogs, you should be asking to see proof that the parents have been through quarenteen.
If the hog is imported and has no paper work then you are risking having your pet confiscated.
hope this helps to clarify the situation and anyone who would like more information can contact me through pm or email.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

I thought i may aswell enlighten everyone as to why the aph requires quarantine as it has not been pointed out and that is because of a rabies risk which if the disease is present presents itself within the quarantine time frame.
Also with regards to hogs being very ill or doa in Ireland....again it should be pointed out that these hogs are taken away from there parents at 4-5weeks old and imported and all these hogs are from non IHA reconised breeders and from private breeders/pet shops in germany,belgium ect.So if importing or buying imported make sure the hogs have come from a IHA reconised breeder.


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

> I thought i may aswell enlighten everyone as to why the aph requires quarantine as it has not been pointed out and that is because of a rabies risk which if the disease is present presents itself within the quarantine time frame.
> Also with regards to hogs being very ill or doa in Ireland....again it should be pointed out that these hogs are taken away from there parents at 4-5weeks old and imported and all these hogs are from non IHA reconised breeders and from private breeders/pet shops in germany,belgium ect.So if importing or buying imported make sure the hogs have come from a IHA reconised breeder.


Why even post??

But seeing as you have... I hope you're providing certificates of quaranteen when you sell hoglets from your imported hogs, because it was actually me that was enquiring with kennels about importing legally, when one particular kennels in Essex told me she'd already had an enquiry about hogs and then been told by the lady that Defra had told her she didn't need to do it (funny enough, Defra are adamant that they would not have told someone that!)... the name I ran by her happened to be yours and lo and behold, she recognised it as the lady that she had spoken to!!

So I assume that you must of used another kennels and will of course be providing certificates so that your customers aren't faced with the possibility of losing their pets!!


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Have you even bothered to see my other post nose ointment :lol2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Yes OF COURSE numpty i will be providing the necessary paperwork...:lol2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

and i do not see my potential hog purchasers as "CUSTOMERS" as i do not have so little regard for my hoglets...The people/breeders i will be selling to will be trusted hedgie friends/owners/breeders:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

I wouldn't throw too many insults around.. it's funny how with all newspaper articles and posts on forums all over the place go on about the expense of your kennel costs (including the for sale ad you briefly posted here stating that they were in kennels) and yet the quaranteen kennels state that you told them you didn't need to quaranteen so wouldn't be doing so... she pointed me back to Defra to query it which of course I did and they state that ALL hogs must be quaranteened on being brought into the country!

So naturally, when you post about the need to quaranteen because of rabies, I will ask whether you are actually gonna give prospective owners the proof they require to prevent them losing their pets!!


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

And i have anserwed your question:Na_Na_Na_Na:so now what?????:lol2:


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## Twiisted (Mar 15, 2008)

Didnt realise that even Hedgehogs had 'politics' :lol2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Maybe you should think harder on your approach and respect to people if you want to avoid insults....


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Twiisted said:


> Didnt realise that even Hedgehogs had 'politics' :lol2:


It's called jealousy:lol2:


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

I've taken it to PM.. rather than force others to listen, but it's not called jealousy hun - it's called HONESTY!! - something that you need to read up on... or perhaps if I put it politely, REALITY.... you can't tell one set of people one thing nad others another without somewhere along hte lines people putting two and two together!!

Mods, I won't continue this any further, but if necessary, I will provide you with the information that I have PM'd Heavenly Hogs with.. to back up my claims!


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

You know what philly please do not send me threats via pm....and i will have it out here for all to see....THE TRUTH.
As you said in the pm i stated that i would NOT breed cholet because she had no lines...Well things change Philly and cholets breeder now registers all his hog SO THEREFORE she has lineage even though its limited so yes i had a change of mind in breeding her as i was given the A OK by an IHA member and my IHA reconise mentor......
So do not make threats to me things change all the time.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Why go private with it????????????
I have nothing to hide but if this is a way to get information from me then forget it....My imports are MY business and the business of the owners of their off spring and not yours:whistling2:
I have stated that i will provide the paperwork....So???????


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

So you have an email saying i no longer have a mentor....did it ever occur to you that i got another:lol2:
Anyone wanting proof of this can contact me for the details.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

My new mentor is IHA reconised just because i failed to post the fact doesnt mean i do not have one:lol2:
One thing i have learned is not to post my business for the likes:whistling2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

And before you threaten to publish anything else about things i have said i will post it here....
Yes i was told Athravans hoglets werent good enough to breed from because they were unregistered and unlined....but my what a beautiful hedgie she is with the most remarkable temperament....Athravan now registers all her hedgies so YES Adelaide also has lineage although again limited...What makes you think that anyone wants anything more of a hoglet than just a breeding machine???????????????????????????????
I have policies on all my limited lined hogs which i was advised to have by the IHA......Take it up with them


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

they are not just breeding machines:lol2:
Some people do seek just pets:whistling2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

The truth of the matter is that potential owners will have all they require of me and all they want....which certainly doesnt include you so please stop sending threats via pm because i pi:censor:sed on your battery...


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

Wow, when did Hedghogs stop being pets and start being thoroghbred animals? Some people need to get a grip, afraid of losing the exclusive "hedghog breeder" status and income attached to it?


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Who cares if my hoglets have limited lines??????????
i want to offer people beautiful hoglets which are loved by me and by their new owners...i do not care for breeder status.I want to breed what i love...
so stuff the minority with their views...


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Because of such idiots i almost gave up...statemements such as no one buy her hoglets being made...Why make it difficult when it's just the hoglets that suffer because no one will want them...
I almost sold my imports and before you could even say hoglet emails were received by the potential new owner wanting to secure entire litters before they were even born....says it all:lol2:
My hedgies are SO not worth buying yet here thris breeder was with these same people wanting entire litters:lol2:


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

I think they are only the minority because they want to keep it that way. Keep it a closed circle and the unit cost stays high. Essentially, these are domesticated non-native wild animals. Myself and Twiisted want one because they are cute and we want to give it a loving, caring home. We don't care who she/he was sired or damed by, as long as the standard inbreeding precautions are followed.

Trying to regulate them like dogs will fail frankly. Once the mainstream pet breeders see the potential income they will become more common because it will be economically viable to import and quaranteen breeding stock in large numbers.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

WOW when did APH become such a dirty word:lol2: Dont do politics so why come on here causing trouble. Maybe you are a Cyber stalker Philldan. Us APH owners are not all breeders most just want cute unusual pets so why all the hassle. Touch wood my 2 seem healthy and happy, 1 has lineage and 1 does not. The girl I got is probably already pregnant as she was in with a male before I bought her, she has no lineage with her so what do I do???? keep any babies myself or sell to pet homes. I dont have time for anymore so no doubt I will sell to pet homes, as they have no lineage will I then become a bad breeder even though I never put her with male


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Fly said:


> I think they are only the minority because they want to keep it that way. Keep it a closed circle and the unit cost stays high. Essentially, these are domesticated non-native wild animals. Myself and Twiisted want one because they are cute and we want to give it a loving, caring home. We don't care who she/he was sired or damed by, as long as the standard inbreeding precautions are followed.
> 
> Trying to regulate them like dogs will fail frankly. Once the mainstream pet breeders see the potential income they will become more common because it will be economically viable to import and quaranteen breeding stock in large numbers.


Thats not the case!!

The worry is, that there is a huge amount of hogs being brought in from abroad illegally - potentially carrying rabies and various other diseases that if they didn't pose a threat to our own animals, Defra wouldn't insist on them being quaranteened!!

Would you be happy to see rabies back in this country simply because a few selfish people decide that they are above the law and bring animals into the country??

I hope the answer to that is no.. because it wouldn't just be pygmy hedgehogs that would suffer.....


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

Bad breeder. Good God. If you manage to raise a few hoglets that are healthy you are far from a bad breeder. I have never heard such utter crapola in my life. :lol2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

I anserwed the original post of will i offer proof in paper work which i shall.so there is no need for pm threats.
I was naieve at the begining and am so much woser to all these people now.If i was so unworthy i would NOT be listed on the IHA breeder list...
the questions were anserwed and i have nothing futher to add.
Anyone(non threatening bodies)who want to know more are most welcome to pm me with Q's i have nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to hide.


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

Philldan said:


> Thats not the case!!
> 
> The worry is, that there is a huge amount of hogs being brought in from abroad illegally - potentially carrying rabies and various other diseases that if they didn't pose a threat to our own animals, Defra wouldn't insist on them being quaranteened!!
> 
> ...


For the record, there has never been a proven case of Rabies in African Pigmy Hedgehogs. The question is, would YOU be happy for African Pigmy Hedgehogs from UK breeding stock to sell in petsmart for £10 each?


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> WOW when did APH become such a dirty word:lol2: Dont do politics so why come on here causing trouble. Maybe you are a Cyber stalker. Us APH owners are not all breeders most just want cute unusual pets so why all the hassle. Touch wood my 2 seem healthy and happy, 1 has lineage and 1 does not. The girl I got is probably already pregnant as she was in with a male before I bought her, she has no lineage with her so what do I do???? keep any babies myself or sell to pet homes. I dont have time for anymore so no doubt I will sell to pet homes, as they have no lineage will I then become a bad breeder even though I never put her with male


There's no issue despite how it's being made to look with lineage... but to do with the fact that certain people made huge statements claiming that they would never breed from unlined hogs and flaming everyone that did so... and yet went on to do it!!

I'm not going to get into arguments, the fact is, that pet owner or breeder... with or without lineage... how would you feel if you paid out for a cute hoglet only to have it either fall ill or have Defra knocking on your door because the parents haven't been quaranteened?? - THe point was simply to state that if you are buying from a breeder with imported hogs.. tehn you need to ask for a certificate of quaranteen!!


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Philldan did you bother to read my defra post on here?
I did not intentionally import hogs illegally...i almost lost everything trying to keep onto the oones i bought here...which I by the way collected myself they were not bought in little crates i personally collected them with defras blessing...I've been through sheer hell and back since.If i did not TRULY love my hogs would i even bother to give up everything i own and put myself through months of sheer hell with no money flat broke and mmake my whole family suffer????????including my 2 diasbled kids who would have funded quarantuine???????????
Do not make me out to be a heartless cow please.....Anyone who knows me knows the torment of the past few months.


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Fly said:


> For the record, there has never been a proven case of Rabies in African Pigmy Hedgehogs. The question is, would YOU be happy for African Pigmy Hedgehogs from UK breeding stock to sell in petsmart for £10 each?


Definately not.. but I'm afraid to say that pet shops are exactly where some of these imported hogs are ending up... there are in fact several dozen sitting in a shop right now (I'll happily PM you the details!)


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Philldan said:


> There's no issue despite how it's being made to look with lineage... but to do with the fact that certain people made huge statements claiming that they would never breed from unlined hogs and flaming everyone that did so... and yet went on to do it!!
> 
> I'm not going to get into arguments, the fact is, that pet owner or breeder... with or without lineage... how would you feel if you paid out for a cute hoglet only to have it either fall ill or have Defra knocking on your door because the parents haven't been quaranteened?? - THe point was simply to state that if you are buying from a breeder with imported hogs.. tehn you need to ask for a certificate of quaranteen!!


 
But i anserwed your question and told you that i will provide the necessary documentation but you had to pm me with threats that you had been sent emails by other breeders staing that i would not breed from unlined hogs...
Well in the time that has passed the breeders i got these unlined hogs from have now registered so then my unlined hogs are now lined??????
Whats the problem with that.....They are no longer unlined....


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Philldan said:


> Definately not.. but I'm afraid to say that pet shops are exactly where some of these imported hogs are ending up... there are in fact several dozen sitting in a shop right now (I'll happily PM you the details!)


 
#I am not the owner of these shops so why launch an attack on me?


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

Philldan said:


> Definately not.. but I'm afraid to say that pet shops are exactly where some of these imported hogs are ending up... there are in fact several dozen sitting in a shop right now (I'll happily PM you the details!)


Why is it bad that these enter the UK pet trade from UK (therefore rabies-free) breeding stock?


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Heavenlyhogs said:


> Philldan did you bother to read my defra post on here?
> I did not intentionally import hogs illegally...i almost lost everything trying to keep onto the oones i bought here...which I by the way collected myself they were not bought in little crates i personally collected them with defras blessing...I've been through sheer hell and back since.If i did not TRULY love my hogs would i even bother to give up everything i own and put myself through months of sheer hell with no money flat broke and mmake my whole family suffer????????including my 2 diasbled kids who would have funded quarantuine???????????
> Do not make me out to be a heartless cow please.....Anyone who knows me knows the torment of the past few months.


Ok, I'll reply to this last post seeing as you're trying to make me out to be the bad guy!!

No one is saying you put hogs in a crate... show me where I said that??

The point of the post was that I personally have been told by Defra that there have been no hogs put into quaranteen in this part of the country by a private owner and the kennels state catagorically that you told them that Defra had told you there was no need to quaranteen!! .... when you're speaking to someone that is suprised at getting 2 enquiries the same within a few months and you know someone that is supposed to be quaranteening, then obviously, you'll mention the name!! - the lady would have no reason to lie about her conversation!!

I have phoned kennels in about a 100 mile radius over the past month - because I want to do things legally.... 99% of them have never had hogs but were happy to quote... those that had were more than helpful, none have any in at the moment!!


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Fly said:


> Why is it bad that these enter the UK pet trade from UK (therefore rabies-free) breeding stock?


These hoglets were shipped over here, haven't been in quaranteen and are being sold to unkowing people.. how many peole walk into a shop and impulse buy??

How many people would know the signs of a sick hog if they know nothign about it??


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

What I am questioning is the opinion that there seems to be a need for breeding lineage, like they are Racehorses, greyhounds or Pedigree dogs! All this talk about registration and paperwork just can't be taken seriously when you are talking about a captive wild animal, albeit a hybrid.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Then if defra are aware of me and i have these hogs how can i possibly evade the law?????????
Just because i choose not to publicly announce what is going on doesnt make me sinister and underhanded...it's because of comments made by people like yourself and interferance that i choose not to announce the entire facts.
Anyone wanting any future hoglets from me with new lines are the only people entitled to that information....Because of these kind of comments i now keep my private things private.


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Heavenlyhogs said:


> But i anserwed your question and told you that i will provide the necessary documentation but you had to pm me with threats that you had been sent emails by other breeders staing that i would not breed from unlined hogs...
> Well in the time that has passed the breeders i got these unlined hogs from have now registered so then my unlined hogs are now lined??????
> Whats the problem with that.....They are no longer unlined....


Excuse me... I PM'd you after you among other things called me a numpty!! 

As for the unlined thing Michelle.. the emails I have state that you were going to breed them before their parents were registered.... you know that!! 

There's absolutely no point in arguing with you...at least with a bit of luck anyone reading this will realise that they need to ask for certificates with an official stamp on them (from anyone selling imports!) - and if you can provide that, great!! - but I don't know how unless of course Defra and the kennels have both made huge mistakes, in which case, maybe you should get onto them again, because they'll keep on giving out the same information until you set them straight!!


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

And i will also add that i've seen this coming as far as people making enquiries go and have requested that the kennels i spoke to do not release any information concerning myself or my hogs....It's confidential information.So they will not release any info and play dumb:whistling2:


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

Heavenlyhogs said:


> And i will also add that i've seen this coming as far as people making enquiries go and have requested that the kennels i spoke to do not release any information concerning myself or my hogs....It's confidential information.So they will not release any info and play dumb:whistling2:


Yep, you are protected under the Data Protection Act.


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## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

Fly said:


> What I am questioning is the opinion that there seems to be a need for breeding lineage, like they are Racehorses, greyhounds or Pedigree dogs! All this talk about registration and paperwork just can't be taken seriously when you are talking about a captive wild animal, albeit a hybrid.


Fly, there's a disease called WHs that affects pygmy hedgehogs, it's prevalent in a lot of lines abroad , particularily America, but until recently had been pretty much unheard of over here!! - However, there was a confirmed case a while ago.. it can only be diagnosed by post mortem and the only way to try and stop it getting out of hand here is to use the lineage to work out what lines have it.... and where possible, get people to stop breeding from those lines!!

And of course the age old reason of inbreeding... how healthy can our lines stay if people inbreed - knowingly or not??


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Philldan said:


> Excuse me... I PM'd you after you among other things called me a numpty!!
> 
> As for the unlined thing Michelle.. the emails I have state that you were going to breed them before their parents were registered.... you know that!!
> 
> There's absolutely no point in arguing with you...at least with a bit of luck anyone reading this will realise that they need to ask for certificates with an official stamp on them (from anyone selling imports!) - and if you can provide that, great!! - but I don't know how unless of course Defra and the kennels have both made huge mistakes, in which case, maybe you should get onto them again, because they'll keep on giving out the same information until you set them straight!!


When i first got into hedgies i didnt know much about the pedigree side of things and yes when i got these females i didnt see a problem in breeding them....if you check hedgehogcentral.com you will see i stated i would not breed adelaide because her lines were not known...and on my website they were down as retired or pet only...However upon learning much much more and the breeders from whom i purchased now registering it kind of changes things....
I was new and didnt know too much at the time about lineage ect....and i didnt find other breeders paticularly helpful either.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Everybody is covered by this act now and to give out any information at all is a no, no


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Philldan said:


> Fly, there's a disease called WHs that affects pygmy hedgehogs, it's prevalent in a lot of lines abroad , particularily America, but until recently had been pretty much unheard of over here!! - However, there was a confirmed case a while ago.. it can only be diagnosed by post mortem and the only way to try and stop it getting out of hand here is to use the lineage to work out what lines have it.... and where possible, get people to stop breeding from those lines!!
> 
> And of course the age old reason of inbreeding... how healthy can our lines stay if people inbreed - knowingly or not??


There are also uk lines with this disease....the causes are still not known.
Yes there has been a few cases here but unless that paticular breeder presents a necropsy report to proove a case(whether true or not)breeders will still breed from them lines.
In fact there is an assumed case of whs in the uk....but because the breeder never presented proof breeders decided to continue with the lines....


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

What needs to happen is that breeders need to stop being so secretive for a start....and me personally...i would announce such a case publicly.Most breeders fear that this will ruin their name and their ability to sell hogs but the only reasons that would happen is by the secrecy and not the fact that they have a case.It happens and is nothing to be ashamed of.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

As far as being able to tell what lines carry it with lineage details yes but on the other hand it has not been prooven 100% to be genetic and is still at this time just THOUGHT to be


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

Philldan said:


> Fly, there's a disease called WHs that affects pygmy hedgehogs, it's prevalent in a lot of lines abroad , particularily America, but until recently had been pretty much unheard of over here!! - However, there was a confirmed case a while ago.. it can only be diagnosed by post mortem and the only way to try and stop it getting out of hand here is to use the lineage to work out what lines have it.... and where possible, get people to stop breeding from those lines!!
> 
> And of course the age old reason of inbreeding... how healthy can our lines stay if people inbreed - knowingly or not??


If there was a confirmed case, there is already a recessive gene in the gene pool, no matter how much you try to restrict the lines the trait is there and will appear again. Keeping restricted breeding lines will eventually have the opposite effect, causing mutations that will spoil a gene pool completely within a couple of generations.

It doesn't take genious to work that out I'm afraid.

From an outsider point of view you all seem to be trying to keep the breeding of APHs a closed circle.


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## Twiisted (Mar 15, 2008)

Philldan said:


> These hoglets were shipped over here, haven't been in quaranteen and are being sold to unkowing people.. how many peole walk into a shop and impulse buy??
> 
> How many people would know the signs of a sick hog if they know nothign about it??




Hedgehogs arnt exactly difficult to look after... Whats the difference between a Hedgehog/Snake/Lizard..? Everyone impulse buys.. Doesnt mean they wont be well looked after.

So maybe you should spend your time trying to educate people rather than bitching? 

Seems this thread was just a tool to start an argument with HHogs anyway.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

The whole point of the post was quarantining...
I have made my points openly and honestly and do not take kindly to pm threats about things i may have said in the past because its THE PAST.
I'm a great beleiver in the here the now and the future...I have done nothing wrong and maybe yes i did change my mind on breeding my girls but that is my decision and one i did not make lightly...My girls are beautiful however limited the lines they are healthy and i couldnt asked for any better a pet.
Anyone who buys my hogs or are about to have been welcomed to my home to check me and my hedgies out....so they can see for themselves who and what i am and that i above all take excellent care of all my animals including my hedgies.I have had almost 10 years expirience in exotics and they are my life and my love.
Also from any future import breedings i welcome questions and will be able to proove without a doubt my story and will provide whatever documentation is requested by a potential owner.
I have been stressed beyond limitation over the past 6 months on the same old issues and i am now closing the book for myself on the subject.
I feel the only persons it concerns from here on are those that buy from me.
Over and out


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## janiej (Jan 22, 2008)

Why does everyone want to be knowing everyone elses business, i've got 6 hedgies they are my pets and my hobby, and hopefully i have a pregnant female right now, and my only concern is that they are happy and healthy, whats a pedigree in a hedgehog anyway? Mine are registered well the 4 aph are anyway, but i personally cant see it means that much

:whistling2:


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## Twiisted (Mar 15, 2008)

Heavenlyhogs said:


> The whole point of the post was quarantining...
> I have made my points openly and honestly and do not take kindly to pm threats about things i may have said in the past because its THE PAST.
> I'm a great beleiver in the here the now and the future...I have done nothing wrong and maybe yes i did change my mind on breeding my girls but that is my decision and one i did not make lightly...My girls are beautiful however limited the lines they are healthy and i couldnt asked for any better a pet.


I think it does all boil down to people wanting to keep it Elite. 

Not all pedigree dogs are Kennel club registered & have been bred to special lineage. Doesnt mean they are gonna make bad pets or have health problems..


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

And at the end of the day i ask you all have all these bitchy breeders cried like i have,suffered depression like i have and sleepless nights....
I THINK NOT 

.........................................................................................................


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## Twiisted (Mar 15, 2008)

Heavenlyhogs said:


> And at the end of the day i ask you all have all these bitchy breeders cried like i have,suffered depression like i have and sleepless nights....
> I THINK NOT
> 
> .........................................................................................................


It seems that you are new.. And not sticking to their 'rules' .. 

Toys out the pram & all that.. As long as your hedgies are healthy then i really dont see the issue.:devil:


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## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

The purpose of this topic was to make people aware of the situation with importing hedgehogs illegally, and purchasing hedgehogs that have been imported.
The case in ireland was just an example and whether or not they were too young to leave thier parents was not the point of the post. The point was they shouldnt have been brought in in the first place. People went on to buy those hogs in good faith.
As for pet stores, no one wants to see hedgehogs for sale in shops, and again the point was, not to buy from shops as you dont know where they are from, many are again illegally imported.
This was not meant to be a personally attack on anyone and the sheer fact that you (heavenlyhogs) jump in on any posts made by myself or phildan and make such a big stink about everything and play the martyr all the time only puts enphasis on the fact you have things to hide.
As far as UK breeders go, all our hogs are pet first and breeders second so to be accused of breeding for the money is ludicrous. anyone who knows anything about hogs knows that breeding is not that simple. We werent the ones advertising to be breeding litters before we even had any hogs.
As for us being a close knit circle, yes there are a few of us that are close friends, as there are in many other animal breeders but there have been so many new people coming forward as pet owners and breeders lately, and all have been welcomed with open arms, isnt it suspiscious there is only one who hasnt.
Seeing as you have brought lineage into this, where it wasnt an issue in the first place, i personally have no problems with people who breed with no lineage, obviously its good to know where your hogs come from but that doesnt mean they are any better than any other. This has always been my view. Any problems I have with people do not concern breeding without lineage. I would be less worried about hogs with no lineage and more concerned by the fact your using your childrens disability allowance to cover your pet costs, and for saying how skint you are isnt stopping you buying snakes, stop playing for the sympathy vote.
As for the IHA breeders list, well what can i say, there are people on there that dont breed anymore, people who inbreed, people who dont register thier hogs (this is supposedly key to being included on that list) its all utter nonsense.
Maybe if you provided the evidence your hogs are in quarentine people would stop questioning you, and by not doing so you are only fueling the situation.
I dont know how well you people backing HH actually know her but just think about what you are getting yourself into before you shout down long standing breeders and buy hogs from her not knowing the full situation.
As i stated before anyone wanting to know more about imported hogs can contact me via pm or email


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

But the point is i DO NOT have no one to proove nothing to other than those seeking to buy from me:lol2:
I do not use my disabled childrens money by the way but if it came to that MY children offered this to me to keep what they regard as THEIR pets too.These are FAMILY pets and not just a wow or novelty factor for myself.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

And i'm not the only one..but i shall say no more on the people coming to me with the same views on the small minority...:whistling2:
Because i wouldnt want them to be targeted.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

So bugg:censor:r me if i have 2 amazing children that were so upset at the prospect of loosing family pets....
THEY offered remember that please!!!!!
And the only person who dare bring my children into the argument is me....Remember that too please in future:whip:


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## reaper2008 (Jul 27, 2008)

*well well*

funny but it is true what some one else said they feel threatened now that people are learning more about these gentle little creatures.and those who think they had the monopoly are now running scared.why cant humans not see another come up in life why want to keep them down???? well just a little something there is a so called top breeder who is so desperate to stay at the top she wants to import aph from africa guess what they are a protected species there and therefore will be a offence to import from there.

heavenlyhogs there are many people who know what a struggle you have had with pepole that kept putting you down because they dont want to lose their monopoly that dont care about their hedgies but look at them as cash machines.

heavenlyhogs you perservere with what you are doing you have had a struggle up to know and i dare say these people with their jealousy are not going to stop easely and before they threaten any one tey should look at their own ethics on why they are breeding these creatures

i will buy a hog from you anytime heavenlyhogs ecause i know they come from a loving home where they are well cared for not just a cash farm like for some people 

good luck and keep up the good work heavenlyhogs you are a asset to these creatures


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## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

i dont know why some of you think people are threatened, we have nothing to be threatened about and as ive said many many new breeders have become friends amongst us. its great that the aph is finally getting the praise it deserves.
isnt it funny that money is always bought into things by some people. for some of us money isnt important but for others it obviously is. i for one havent produced that many hogs that i have made any money from them, infact it is just the opposite and they have cost me greatly over the years, but i wouldnt change them for the world.
yes i did mention imported hogs from africa, they are not straight out of the wild and it is not me personally importing them, and it was dera who recommended them to a friend of mine. The hogs i was looking into getting were the future offspring of those hogs but as of yet nothing has come of it and ive no plans to import anything myself.

the only other person who has been personally attacked is me, and you know what you dont see me going on and on about it and bringing in tiny details that noone wants to hear. It also hasnt been the end of me and certainly wont be.


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## Fly (May 27, 2008)

I have issues that this seems to have become a personal attack. My opinion is that HH is being targeted because she didn't stick with the pack. I'm not being funny, but having a registry of pets is useful if you want to know the parentage of your hogs but little else. Weeding out genetic imperfection is not quite as easy as thought, and pedigree dogs are prime proof of how keeping strict breeding lines can actually be counterproductive. The only true way of improving a genetic pool is by introducing new non-domestic lines, but this would involve, as you say, importing a protected species.

Restricting breeding at such an early stage of the APH development as a pet is frought with danger for the breed.

I have a typical example for you, the population of the Islands of Tristan de Cuhna in the atlantic are made up of the genetic material from about 7 families. The incidence of Astmha is 60%, which is incredibly high, simply because of the limited genepool. This indicates that created a limited genepool to eliminate one desease will simply cause another to become dominant, eventually.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

angeldog said:


> the only other person who has been personally attacked is me,


It's called Karma:whistling2:


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## reaper2008 (Jul 27, 2008)

*hogs from africa*

it is illegal to import any hogs from africa wether they are wild or captive bred it states that in the the south african fauna and flora charter which is now under cites review that any animlas on the endangered species list wethere they are kept as private pets or from the wild may not be exported from anywhere in africa and any one found doing so will be breaking the international laws of trade in animals and therefore will be fined a hefty fine or receive a jail sentence.

oh and as far as personal attacks go angeldog i have it on great authority that it was you who started all the personal attacks months ago on heavenlyhogs so you dont realy have a leg to stand on not then and not now and if i was heavenlyhogs i will take this matter further legally as you now have become nothing more than abusive and what in the world gives you the right to attack the womans children and use them in a forum like this who gave you that right therefore i urge heavenlyhogs to seek legal advice and make sure that bullies like you get what they deserve and as i understand it from another forum that there is someone else that is just as big a bully as you are and i know f more that just heavenlyhogs that had been bullied by you and others in your click into giving up on breeding hedgehogs and therefore i will support heavenlyhogs and so will a lot of oher people as she has had the balls to stand up agains you and your sort

heavenlyhogs continue with what you are doing and remember you have the support of many people and do seek legal advice against these bullies they need to get what is comming to them


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## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

no one said anything about limiting the gene pool further infact we are working on the opposite but to get back to the point, hogs being brought in have to go into quarantine. thats all that was being said.
The original post had no personal attack on anyone.

Unfotuantely this is what happens when you try to give advice to people and others stick their noses in and make it all about them.

But thanks for making it such a popular post im sure it will only invite more viewers now:2thumb:


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## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

reaper2008 said:


> it is illegal to import any hogs from africa wether they are wild or captive bred it states that in the the south african fauna and flora charter which is now under cites review that any animlas on the endangered species list wethere they are kept as private pets or from the wild may not be exported from anywhere in africa and any one found doing so will be breaking the international laws of trade in animals and therefore will be fined a hefty fine or receive a jail sentence.


thank you for that information i will pass that on to defra as they seem to have missed those details out.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

And yes i had a website when i had 2 hogs on reserve but due to my partner having post traumatic stress disorder(which andeldog threw in my face and in his presence said was lies)from his army days and due to the fact his family were murdered he was hospitalised and in the same week my grandmother had a stroke and i had to leave the country to be by her side in ireland...so i had to let down these breeders so under the circumstances i thought it diabolical how these breeders bitched about it.
I thought the responsible thing to do was to not take on the hogs at the time.I had a website...i always knew this was what i wanted to do and it's been prooved it wasn't an on the spur of the moment thing or impulse because i'm still here.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

angeldog said:


> thank you for that information i will pass that on to defra as they seem to have missed those details out.


 
They not exactly inperfect are they look at the mistakes they made with me:lol2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

*edit*

Ooops i meant to say defra are USELESS look what they advised me:lol2:


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

Maybe you should advise them:lol2:


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## lozzabubble (Feb 3, 2008)

Why do these post always have to turn into slaggin matches, there is absolutely no need for it.

The original post by Angeldog was not aggressive in anyway and I think that it was indeed a good post. Most people who are interested in getting a hog and researching the subject wouldn't have any idea that hogs have to go into quarantine, or that they get certificates etc to prove that they have been... I definitely didn't know they got certificates. I think that the point of the post is to let people know things like this, a forum is supposed to be informative after all. 

It is important that people are able to get the full facts on things so that they can make informed decisions, of course not all hogs that are not quarantined will get ill, maybe none of them will, but as a potential buyer would you not rather know where the hog or it's parents have come from and that they have been properly cared for in the eyes of the law?

I myself am a new breeder and understand that the gene pool in the UK is limited and that we do need some new blood, however I do think that it is right that things are done properly and lawfully, as someone said earlier it would be unbearable to have someone take away your beloved pet because it didn't have the relevant paperwork. Obviously breeders do everything they can to ensure that their hoglets go to loving homes and if they are to be bred, breeders try and make sure that inbreeding doesn't occur, however with new lines being brought into the country illegally and without paperwork that increases the chance of hogs being bred and producing sickly hoglets which is devastating for both the owner and i'm sure the mother hog, this is why I think that people need to be made aware of things so that they can make informed decisions.

As a new breeder I have been welcomed by other breeders and have received tonnes of helpful advice, I don't think it's right that people criticise them as trying to be elite as I know lots of new breeders just like me who have also received warm welcomes.

I don't want to get into the argument here, I just think it's important that the purpose of this thread does not get lost in the petty squables.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

And thats how it was until someone decided to bring my name into in and abuse my data protection rights...and then someone else decided to stick their beak in and join in and slate me.
Yes a good point was made...my imports are healthy lined and have paperwork....i wont have anyone thinking otherwise.


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