# Petition to Keep Lightbulbs



## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

Anyone who is against the government plan to ban lightbulbs please use the following link to petition no 10 against the ban.

Petition to: maintain the availability of existing incandescent lightbulbs until there are suitable non-fluorescent energy saving bulbs which can be tolerated by everyone including people with light sensitivity.


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## reptiles! (Sep 27, 2007)

Signed it


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

lightbulbs!!?? what the heck is going on over there? bizzillions of cameras everywhere, even on the po-po, trying to ban pets, jeez! what's next? they gonna micro-chip everybody? i ain't ragging on the UK, but wow! i don't have words.........crazy stuff.


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## Skar's Royals (Aug 24, 2007)

HABU - We won't be allowed to take a whizz soon over here!


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

HABU said:


> lightbulbs!!?? what the heck is going on over there? bizzillions of cameras everywhere, even on the po-po, trying to ban pets, jeez! what's next? they gonna micro-chip everybody? i ain't ragging on the UK, but wow! i don't have words.........crazy stuff.


Yeah, unbelievable isn't it. All the things going on in the world and our government has decided to ban lightbulbs. Strangely enough they are going to microchip us next, they are on about putting one in our cars so they can monitor where you are going and charge you by the mile, and making you carry a microchipped id card with you at all times. Its all a bit George Orwell. Within 3 years we will only be able to use compact flourescents for everything, don't see how that is going to work.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

bev336 said:


> Yeah, unbelievable isn't it. All the things going on in the world and our government has decided to ban lightbulbs. Strangely enough they are going to microchip us next, they are on about putting one in our cars so they can monitor where you are going and charge you by the mile, and making you carry a microchipped id card with you at all times. Its all a bit George Orwell. Within 3 years we will only be able to use compact flourescents for everything, don't see how that is going to work.


 
"long live liberty!"...."not!":lol2:


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

Since when...about the light bulb thing...eh? I'm lost now :lol2: do you have any other links with this propsed by the goverment.

As for the car thing.....I can a ltter from an insurance companie the other day about 'pay as you go' car insurance where they track your car, seems like the goverment will try to get this in through the back door by getting people use to be tracked......there is no way in hell I want a tracker on my ca, not because I'm doing anything wrong mind, it's just an invasion or rights.

But light bulbs............never would have thought:idea:


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## casperclone (Sep 17, 2007)

government is aload of bullsh*t, how r w esupposed to keep reptiles, they need bulbs 2 bask


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

viva la revolucion!! :lol2:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

SIGNED IT.
Hate being told what to do lol


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## Beardies (Sep 30, 2006)

Jesus bloody christ what ever next well ive signed it anyways stupid government 

:bash::bash::bash:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

peaches-


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/57891-bulbs.html


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

peaches said:


> Since when...about the light bulb thing...eh? I'm lost now :lol2: do you have any other links with this propsed by the goverment.
> 
> As for the car thing.....I can a ltter from an insurance companie the other day about 'pay as you go' car insurance where they track your car, seems like the goverment will try to get this in through the back door by getting people use to be tracked......there is no way in hell I want a tracker on my ca, not because I'm doing anything wrong mind, it's just an invasion or rights.
> 
> But light bulbs............never would have thought:idea:


It is not proposed it is now a fact, starting with 150w bulbs asap. Within 3 years you will not be able to use a lightbulb that is not an energy effiecient compact flourescent . It has been all over the tv and radio for the last 2 days, I was gobsmacked.


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## Beardies (Sep 30, 2006)

ok so question i use B&Q spota for my beardies can you use enegry efficient ones for them as they have reflector spots in asda for less than £2 each and instead of 75w it will be 11w??? just wondering as my mum said about the lizards lights?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

sounds like you're voting for the wrong people.....


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

bev336 said:


> It is not proposed it is now a fact, starting with 150w bulbs asap. Within 3 years you will not be able to use a lightbulb that is not an energy effiecient compact flourescent . It has been all over the tv and radio for the last 2 days, I was gobsmacked.


ummm should watch some telly shouldn't I? other than ceebeebies :lol2:

Never thought it, shocked really!!


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## casperclone (Sep 17, 2007)

well i say fuc* em en stock up on bulbs now lol
thatll show em in 3 yrs the cu*ts


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

Beardies said:


> ok so question i use B&Q spota for my beardies can you use enegry efficient ones for them as they have reflector spots in asda for less than £2 each and instead of 75w it will be 11w??? just wondering as my mum said about the lizards lights?


No the energy efficient ones do not give off enough heat and are not as bright.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i guess dope man's going to be selling bulbs too!!:lol2:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

lol
peaches, i linked the article a coupel posts above a sit was posted on this forum yesterday.
firs ti had heard of it too
not suprising really... as the news isnt really on sky one, uk living, and the disney channel 
if i want to watch the news i turn to sky news... but how often is that? lol


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

casperclone said:


> well i say fuc* em en stock up on bulbs now lol
> thatll show em in 3 yrs the cu*ts


 
Funny you should say that I already bought 300 from Lighting UK Suppliers Light Bulbs Fittings Indoor Outdoor Lights Lamps Bulb in all different wattages.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

HABU said:


> i guess dope man's going to be selling bulbs too!!:lol2:


lol
if they really wanted to do it...they could just create a new fitting and put them in all new houses etc, and have the electricians coem round and change whats in your house.. but they wont cos that would cosdt them money lol
they just want the public to be out of pocket [as the energy saving bulbs ar emore expensive than normal ones by many times] without sacrificing themselves as usual.


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## casperclone (Sep 17, 2007)

if this is bein done coz of global warmin how do we no global warmin aint all bulsh*it aswell, me could jus be gradualy gettin closer to the sun. When was the last time scientists checked that yh, suck on that boffs lol


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

HABU said:


> i guess dope man's going to be selling bulbs too!!:lol2:


Yeah, there will be an amazing black market for lightbulbs, why sell dope when you can get a better mark up on lightbulbs.


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## Beardies (Sep 30, 2006)

bev336 said:


> No the energy efficient ones do not give off enough heat and are not as bright.


oh right well im gonna go stock up now :lol2: they have pack of 5 in superdrug on offer atm 89p :Na_Na_Na_Na: for 100w


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

casperclone said:


> if this is bein done coz of global warmin how do we no global warmin aint all bulsh*it aswell, me could jus be gradualy gettin closer to the sun. When was the last time scientists checked that yh, suck on that boffs lol


It is just an excuse to put up taxes. The planet has been through all this before.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

casperclone said:


> if this is bein done coz of global warmin how do we no global warmin aint all bulsh*it aswell, me could jus be gradualy gettin closer to the sun. When was the last time scientists checked that yh, suck on that boffs lol


 
actually, we're slowly moving away from the sun and our moon is slowly moving away from us.


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> lol
> peaches, i linked the article a coupel posts above a sit was posted on this forum yesterday.
> firs ti had heard of it too
> not suprising really... as the news isnt really on sky one, uk living, and the disney channel
> if i want to watch the news i turn to sky news... but how often is that? lol


lmao exactly, usually Sky news goes on when I put the kids to bed because it's boring (for them) and also my son gets upset watching the news but thats another topic anyway.....

So we can only have those fluorescent ones? what about my funny shaped candle ones? their only 40w a piece, admitidly you gotta use five in the one light fixture but .............eh?? 

I'm at a loss with this, you go and and buy some new lighting and soon I wont be able to get the bulbs - great!!

Oh and yeah sucks for lizard keepers too.

(excuse spelling and completely random thoughts today as I'm not well )


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## casperclone (Sep 17, 2007)

[email protected] government
kick labour ot the fat arses


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

i reckon what will happen, is you'll have to buy "special" lucky reptiles ones at £9.99 a piece, i can see them designing the boxes now:lol2:


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## casperclone (Sep 17, 2007)

come buy our new special light bulbs 4 only 9:99
they are not the same as old bulbs, u c we have change the so now they r earth safety, suck my big fat foot lol


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## casperclone (Sep 17, 2007)

come buy our new special light bulbs 4 only 9:99
they are not the same as old bulbs, u c we have change the shape so now they r earth safety, suck my big fat foot lol**
__________________


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> i reckon what will happen, is you'll have to buy "special" lucky reptiles ones at £9.99 a piece, i can see them designing the boxes now:lol2:


I can see them being more expensive than that, as most manufacturer will stop making them altogether as the demand will not be enough to keep any of their production lines going, not just for specialist reptile users. They will probably end up being made specialist companies in small quantities at very high prices.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I have read somewhere - cant remember where, so its not 100% fact but the article said that Halogens would still be available, also golfball and candle lamps, until a suitable alternative is available. And there will be examptions for certain cases. So just switch to halogens if you havent got the space to fill your loft with incandescents.


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## jamie_coxon (Jul 18, 2007)

wot aload of rubbish.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

I suppose if it does happen it will mean people having to make the move over to ceramics


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> I suppose if it does happen it will mean people having to make the move over to ceramics


Yeah, probably the best way to go, although I am biased as I make them.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> i reckon what will happen, is you'll have to buy "special" lucky reptiles ones at £9.99 a piece, i can see them designing the boxes now:lol2:


and then rep keeping will be considered enviromentally un friendly aswell as everything else lol... great.

and about ceramics... gawwwwwwwwd i hope not jeez


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Yet another reason why i wana leave this stupid c.UN.Try!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAbu im coming over there,,,,,,,i wish.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> and then rep keeping will be considered enviromentally un friendly aswell as everything else lol... great.
> 
> and about ceramics... gawwwwwwwwd i hope not jeez


whats wrong with ceramics? i reckon they are the best heating system with the right stat:no1:, ive kept most species on them, royals, green trees, bosc, niles, ackies, and when i make a couple of display vivs for my corns, that would be the first choice:no1:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

punky_jen said:


> Yet another reason why i wana leave this stupid c.UN.Try!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAbu im coming over there,,,,,,,i wish.


ha ha!! plenty of room! the more i hear on this forum, the more i count my blessings! Britain and it's people are cool but somethings going on in parliament. who votes these jokes in office? we'd have another civil war if half that stuff took place here. talk about civil disobedience!!! we're pretty good at the riot thing here, if a kid wants an animal, be it a hamster or snake and wants to learn about nature, it's almost always encouraged. at least he has his mind on something. better than running the streets. ask anyone. but all the proposed laws i've been hearing of as of late, are down right stiffling to ones civil liberties. this light bulb thing would be shot down with a quickness...i catch myself getting worked up just reading about it and i don't even live there!! if someone loses a freedom, then we all lose some of our freedom. sorry, guess i sound like a typical american...:lol2:


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## powderpuff_girl (Mar 5, 2007)

wtf why are they trying to get rid? wot we supposed 2 use?
im lost


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> whats wrong with ceramics? i reckon they are the best heating system with the right stat:no1:, ive kept most species on them, royals, green trees, bosc, niles, ackies, and when i make a couple of display vivs for my corns, that would be the first choice:no1:


yeh thats cool dude, but for everything we use a basking lamp for then a white light reflector bulb is better than anything else.
not after backround heat, just a bask you know.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> yeh thats cool dude, but for everything we use a basking lamp for then a white light reflector bulb is better than anything else.
> not after backround heat, just a bask you know.


ah ok yeah gotcha, its alright ive been in snake mode for the last few years:lol2:


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## dnpreptiles (Sep 20, 2007)

signed


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## jamie_coxon (Jul 18, 2007)

powderpuff_girl said:


> wtf why are they trying to get rid? wot we supposed 2 use?
> im lost


 
hmmm lets see ceramics, reptile branded bulbs :lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Just been reading up on this, its not a UK thing, its a worldwide thing, australia are going to phaze them out by 2010(with new zealand following), canada by 2012, ours is part of a european innitiative and theres plenty of stuff going on in the US too( just proposals of bans in california, Connecticut and removing from government buildings in new jersey)

Im not saying a agree, im just saying its not a uk thing:lol2:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

seems no one here is very clued up on global warming or its causes:lol2:
gaz


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Are lightbulbs really a main cause though?
I just think you should work from the bottom up, start building houses with solar energy combo boilers, actually release the ever lasting lightbulb that has been created and under wraps fora decade [saving on waste and manufacturing]
use energy saving bulbs where possble, bring the prices down etc.. not just phase something out without regard to those who may require said items.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> Just been reading up on this, its not a UK thing, its a worldwide thing, australia are going to phaze them out by 2010(with new zealand following), canada by 2012, ours is part of a european innitiative and theres plenty of stuff going on in the US too( just proposals of bans in california, Connecticut and removing from government buildings in new jersey)
> 
> Im not saying a agree, im just saying its not a uk thing:lol2:


always remember, california is not a part of the united states. it's the land of fruits and nuts! i lived there for years. believe me we let them do whatever they want to. it's like a whole different country.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> Are lightbulbs really a main cause though?
> I just think you should work from the bottom up, start building houses with solar energy combo boilers, actually release the ever lasting lightbulb that has been created and under wraps fora decade [saving on waste and manufacturing]
> use energy saving bulbs where possble, bring the prices down etc.. not just phase something out without regard to those who may require said items.


 
they are a massive cause, 95% of the energy in a bulb is heat, so only 5% of the power is actually lighting your home, weve got all energy savers in our house to offset the racking:no1:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

so hoiw come the energy saving bulbs are so crap at emmiting light?
and why cant that 95% heat be converted and stored and actually used to heat our homes?
i know i couldnt personally develop anything to do so lol.. but if it were down to me i might start with the amount of unecesary packaging that comes with just about everything you can buy anywhere if i was to try and cut down on energy usage.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> always remember, california is not a part of the united states. it's the land of fruits and nuts! i lived there for years. believe me we let them do whatever they want to. it's like a whole different country.


 
i was looking at a wiki on it, globally its seems like its a big movement to change them, The UK just happen to get stung as part of the european legislations, the whole green thing is getting more and more common place over here and getting to be second nature in many cases, choosing energy efficient appliances, cars that are not gas guzzlers, better home insulations, UK energy coming from higher percentages of renewable sources, recycling etc. I dont mind it to be honest, well not at the moment anyway


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> so hoiw come the energy saving bulbs are so crap at emmiting light?
> and why cant that 95% heat be converted and stored and actually used to heat our homes?
> i know i couldnt personally develop anything to do so lol.. but if it were down to me i might start with the amount of unecesary packaging that comes with just about everything you can buy anywhere if i was to try and cut down on energy usage.


They take a bit of getting used to, the thing with them is they take a while to brighten up, once fully lit they are fine, plus thewy are cheaper now, i think my last lot cost £2.99 and have lasted loads longer than bulbs, obviously the viv thing is a different story:lol2:


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

Am I the only one who sees a move to phase out inefficient incandescent bulbs as a good thing? I mean what's the problem, compact flourescents which are currently expensive will become much cheaper, and then your electricity bills will go down because you use less, sounds OK to me!
Does anyone object to the move to make cars more fuel efficient, I mean would anyone actually prefer to have a car that only does 20 to the gallon when it could do 40, anyone really want to go back to the good old days of lead poisoning, isn't this the same thing?
Face the facts, energy in all its forms is becoming more expensive, and generating more of it creates more pollution, sooner or later we'll have to do this whether government makes us or not, the smart ones have already made the switch and are enjoying the benefits.
There are already alternatives to incandescents for our purposes, ceramics produce heat and flourescents provide light, Mercury Vapour lamps will still be available, LED technology is advancing and so will other technologies, they'll have to if incandescents are no longer available.
All these alternatives will become cheaper and more efficient, you know the saying about neccessity being the mother of invention? Well if there's no neccessity then no-one will bother, and that's the problem we have now.
And this will happen in the USA too whatever our American friends say about civil liberties (liberty to pollute the planet?), we'll probably have to wait until the Toxic Texan is out of office but that's not so far off, somehow I can't see the Shrub banning energy guzzling technologies and pissing off his oil industry buddies!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Graham said:


> Am I the only one who sees a move to phase out inefficient incandescent bulbs as a good thing? I mean what's the problem, compact flourescents which are currently expensive will become much cheaper, and then your electricity bills will go down because you use less, sounds OK to me!
> Does anyone object to the move to make cars more fuel efficient, I mean would anyone actually prefer to have a car that only does 20 to the gallon when it could do 40, anyone really want to go back to the good old days of lead poisoning, isn't this the same thing?
> Face the facts, energy in all its forms is becoming more expensive, and generating more of it creates more pollution, sooner or later we'll have to do this whether government makes us or not, the smart ones have already made the switch and are enjoying the benefits.
> There are already alternatives to incandescents for our purposes, ceramics produce heat and flourescents provide light, Mercury Vapour lamps will still be available, LED technology is advancing and so will other technologies, they'll have to if incandescents are no longer available.
> ...


no im for them too, hell i got my burgular system running off of solar:no1:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

The energy saving bulbs do not give off enough heat or light for basking bulbs.
MVB's arent alwasy what you want.
and nothing else would suit.

I find the fact that they are once again forcing soemthing upon ppl to be disgusting.
stopping making them rather than simply pushing the energy saving ones by lowering the price and making them more attractive to consumers is.. again.. very very naughty.


*LED technology is advancing and so will other technologies, they'll have to if incandescents are no longer available.*

I dissagree with that because ppl keeping reptiles is not enough of a reason for anyone to bother advancing on the technology.
and will without any doubt what so ever lead to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced sollutions on the market that will either not work, or just be really expensive. [they will have to give backhanders to all the relevant ppl to be allowed to produce soemthing that still gives the wasteful heat aswell as light and thus destroying our planet yada yada]


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I do think however...based on what captcav... said about 95% of the energy being wasted... that mayeb traditional shaped bulbs that dont reflect the ehat down are wastefull...

having said that..wheneve ri see places, usually kitchens with reflector bulbs.......... THEY USE BLOODY LOADS OF THEM.. so maybe they are worse\/?? as far as actually lighting a room goes i mean.. maybe we should have them up side down coming out of the floor??


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## Razaiel (Oct 17, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> The energy saving bulbs do not give off enough heat or light for basking bulbs.
> MVB's arent alwasy what you want.
> and nothing else would suit.


Quite. They would be totally useless for lizards esp. monitors who require a high basking temperature.

Off to sign right now ...


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

could we not just use ceramics and put a energy saving light in the viv over the bask with some sort of shielded reflector to create a basking spot?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

energy production is a business. it's for profit. do you believe that by using less of a commodity, it will cheapen? the consumer will save some bucks but that is simply because he is not buying as much. take out the word energy and insert tomatos in any statement reguarding energy savings. energy is a global thing. like you and i sitting in the desert with one gallon of water. one of us is trying to conserve the water while the other is guzzling it down. unless we both agree to conserve our resource, it will be gone soon enough anyway. the oil and coal companies are always going to get their profit. ever heard of OPEC? they meet to set production levels. if they aren't selling enought oil/energy, they tighten up supply. this boosts the price because of availability. it's fine and proper to want to be a good citizen of the earth. to make your carbon footprint smaller. but any surpluses in energy supplies, like coal and oil, will just go to 3rd world nations who's economies are on fire like china and india and others. doing the right thing in regards to energy conservation is wholly correct. but if it isn't having an impact on our tiny village we call earth, it is just good intentions. i know, it's a crappy dilemma. i don't want to upset anyone. just stating my opinion as a forthright person. true, universal energy conservation will only happen if it hits all people in the pocketbook. here for instance, when gas prices go up, hybrid car sales go way up. as soon as they drop, people start buying hummers again. it's human nature i'm afraid. it's hard to get the whole herd to move in the same direction. sorry, i ramble. just some food for though. i may even be correct somewhere in this post. i'm not argueing at all. just sharing a perspective.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> I do think however...based on what captcav... said about 95% of the energy being wasted... that mayeb traditional shaped bulbs that dont reflect the ehat down are wastefull...
> 
> having said that..wheneve ri see places, usually kitchens with reflector bulbs.......... THEY USE BLOODY LOADS OF THEM.. so maybe they are worse\/?? as far as actually lighting a room goes i mean.. maybe we should have them up side down coming out of the floor??


Even reflective ones are the same, by putting a reflector on, it doesn't change the energy usage, just directs the light AND heat more, its still just as inefficient, thats the reason why they are used for basking bulbs, as they loosely direct the heat


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

Graham said:


> Am I the only one who sees a move to phase out inefficient incandescent bulbs as a good thing? I mean what's the problem, compact flourescents which are currently expensive will become much cheaper, and then your electricity bills will go down because you use less, sounds OK to me!
> Does anyone object to the move to make cars more fuel efficient, I mean would anyone actually prefer to have a car that only does 20 to the gallon when it could do 40, anyone really want to go back to the good old days of lead poisoning, isn't this the same thing?
> Face the facts, energy in all its forms is becoming more expensive, and generating more of it creates more pollution, sooner or later we'll have to do this whether government makes us or not, the smart ones have already made the switch and are enjoying the benefits.
> There are already alternatives to incandescents for our purposes, ceramics produce heat and flourescents provide light, Mercury Vapour lamps will still be available, LED technology is advancing and so will other technologies, they'll have to if incandescents are no longer available.
> ...


Don't start me on this I drive an old landrover and I am sick of being told it is a gas guzzler. It is not a chelsea tractor as the media would have us believe most landrover are. It is a necessity for me and a lot of other people in rural areas. I am sorry I do not like having green shuved down my throat, especially when most other so called poorier country are free to spue out as much CO2 as they like. All of the EU will be banning lightbulbs except the poor eastern european countries, who have opted out. So if you want to keep a rep with a basking light you have to move to Poland. Also do you realise how bad for your eyes working in flourescent light is. People should have a choice.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> energy production is a business. it's for profit. do you believe that by using less of a commodity, it will cheapen? the consumer will save some bucks but that is simply because he is not buying as much. take out the word energy and insert tomatos in any statement reguarding energy savings. energy is a global thing. like you and i sitting in the desert with one gallon of water. one of us is trying to conserve the water while the other is guzzling it down. unless we both agree to conserve our resource, it will be gone soon enough anyway. the oil and coal companies are always going to get their profit. ever heard of OPEC? they meet to set production levels. if they aren't selling enought oil/energy, they tighten up supply. this boosts the price because of availability. it's fine and proper to want to be a good citizen of the earth. to make your carbon footprint smaller. but any surpluses in energy supplies, like coal and oil, will just go to 3rd world nations who's economies are on fire like china and india and others. doing the right thing in regards to energy conservation is wholly correct. but if it isn't having an impact on our tiny village we call earth, it is just good intentions. i know, it's a crappy dilemma. i don't want to upset anyone. just stating my opinion as a forthright person. true, universal energy conservation will only happen if it hits all people in the pocketbook. here for instance, when gas prices go up, hybrid car sales go way up. as soon as they drop, people start buying hummers again. it's human nature i'm afraid. it's hard to get the whole herd to move in the same direction. sorry, i ramble. just some food for though. i may even be correct somewhere in this post. i'm not argueing at all. just sharing a perspective.


yeah, i see what your saying but it is a bit of a cop out:lol2:

One thing thats bugged me, maybe you can answer, why do american sports cars have massive engines (eg 6litre) and only produce as much bhp as a 2litre(ish) european sports car?

something ive never got? well that and the pick up truck thing:lol2:


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

HABU said:


> energy production is a business. it's for profit. do you believe that by using less of a commodity, it will cheapen? the consumer will save some bucks but that is simply because he is not buying as much. take out the word energy and insert tomatos in any statement reguarding energy savings. energy is a global thing. like you and i sitting in the desert with one gallon of water. one of us is trying to conserve the water while the other is guzzling it down. unless we both agree to conserve our resource, it will be gone soon enough anyway. the oil and coal companies are always going to get their profit. ever heard of OPEC? they meet to set production levels. if they aren't selling enought oil/energy, they tighten up supply. this boosts the price because of availability. it's fine and proper to want to be a good citizen of the earth. to make your carbon footprint smaller. but any surpluses in energy supplies, like coal and oil, will just go to 3rd world nations who's economies are on fire like china and india and others. doing the right thing in regards to energy conservation is wholly correct. but if it isn't having an impact on our tiny village we call earth, it is just good intentions. i know, it's a crappy dilemma. i don't want to upset anyone. just stating my opinion as a forthright person. true, universal energy conservation will only happen if it hits all people in the pocketbook. here for instance, when gas prices go up, hybrid car sales go way up. as soon as they drop, people start buying hummers again. it's human nature i'm afraid. it's hard to get the whole herd to move in the same direction. sorry, i ramble. just some food for though. i may even be correct somewhere in this post. i'm not argueing at all. just sharing a perspective.


 
Well said.

All I want to be able to do is buy a basking lightbulb for my tortoise when I need one.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

tombraider said:


> could we not just use ceramics and put a energy saving light in the viv over the bask with some sort of shielded reflector to create a basking spot?


yes, we could also use a magnifying glass to create more focused heat.. but i dont want too.. 
also however much you reflect it.. an energy saving bulb simply wont do the job for our reps.


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

> Don't start me on this I drive an old landrover and I am sick of being told it is a gas guzzler


I think you missed my point, maybe I phrased it badly. If you could still drive your Landy but with new technology that enabled you to get twice the mileage with similar performance, wouldn't that be a good thing? 



> do you realise how bad for your eyes working in flourescent light is.


Yes that's because of the flicker, and the flicker is caused by old technology magnetic ballasts. Switch to the new electronic ballasts and the flicker goes, energy efficiency improves, light output increases, and so does the average life of your tubes.
I fitted electronic ballasts in my workshop and my electricity consumption dropped noticeably, and the light level is much better than it used to be too.



> energy production is a business. it's for profit. do you believe that by using less of a commodity, it will cheapen?


Of course not, do you believe that by using more of it it will stop getting more expensive? It will get more expensive regardless, so the only thing we can do to compensate is to find ways to use less of it.



> All I want to be able to do is buy a basking lightbulb for my tortoise when I need one.


So get a Mercury Vapour, no-one said anything about banning those and they are better for your tort anyway, as of this winter I'm using nothing but MVBs for my turts.


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> yes, we could also use a magnifying glass to create more focused heat.. but i dont want too..
> also however much you reflect it.. an energy saving bulb simply wont do the job for our reps.


thats why i mentioned using ceramics too.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Mind you they aint goinna ban the use of them, so nows the time to stockpile a few:lol2:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I personally dont consider it a very good option for ours, you cant realy direct the ceramics heat down, no combination woudl work the same as a reflector bulb i dont think.

GRAHAM
*So get a Mercury Vapour, no-one said anything about banning those and they are better for your tort anyway, as of this winter I'm using nothing but MVBs for my turts.*

MVB'S are not going to be wanted soley, I use mvb's but only in combination with other white light reflector bulbs.
The fact that they cannot be put on a stat means you have to go lower than you might want and then add an additional basking bulb that can be statted to increase the temps whilst keeping it safe in the event opf max tems being reached.
they also cannot be used quite close enough safely to also maintain a decent temp bask for desert species.
we dont always want uvb to be going with the light and heat.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

captaincaveman said:


> Mind you they aint goinna ban the use of them, so nows the time to stockpile a few:lol2:


exactly, which i will be doing [well i do anyway,i have about 40 spares at the minute but im gona need a lot more lol prolly close to 5 thousand if i even want to consider the next few years of keeping any selection of lizards.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> exactly, which i will be doing [well i do anyway,i have about 40 spares at the minute but im gona need a lot more lol prolly close to 5 thousand if i even want to consider the next few years of keeping any selection of lizards.


 
ah, the benefits of just keeping snakes now:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, i see what your saying but it is a bit of a cop out:lol2:
> 
> One thing thats bugged me, maybe you can answer, why do american sports cars have massive engines (eg 6litre) and only produce as much bhp as a 2litre(ish) european sports car?
> 
> something ive never got? well that and the pick up truck thing:lol2:


because cavedude, it's like i said in my last post, conservation only happens with most folks when it hits them in the wallet. up until a couple years ago, gas was less than 99 cents a gallon here, like 1/2 a quid. i remember when it was 25 cents a gallon. american sports cars were traditonally just all about cubic inches and carburetor size. silly, while all the europeans and japanese were working on perfomance and effeciency, the american auto makers were busy giving the american market what they wanted. BIG, fast, luxurious vehicles. if gas costs a pittance, who cares about the efficiency? yeah, it's sad. but everytime detroit tied to follow mercedes and bmw's lead, no one would buy the cars. europeans it seems are well with precision bombing whereas americans are carpet bombers. oh, the stereotypes are mostly true about americans i'm afraid.
turbocharging in engines and other technology was rare not so long ago. raw horsepower and massive cylinders were the tradition. now with gas about $3 a gallon, people here are begining to see the light. for this, i am glad. sorry, i ramble again.:lol2:


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

Graham said:


> I think you missed my point, maybe I phrased it badly. If you could still drive your Landy but with new technology that enabled you to get twice the mileage with similar performance, wouldn't that be a good thing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I have to use a 100w + KVB bulb instead of 40w or 60w, thats energy efficient. And thermostats do not control MVB bulbs well and don't control the combined UV and heat at all. I have a factory and in winter my electricity bill is £1900 a month, so I am all for saving on my bill, but I certainly am not going to get in someone to change all the flourescent lighting and what about the bench lamps for close up soldering, how do you focus a compact flourescent for close up work.

I understand what you are saying about getting more miles with new technology but then I have to go out and spend £45,000 on a new Discovery when my old one is just fine, or spend out on an expensive conversion kit like they do now for LPG. I come from the heart of the potteries and I have watched china take away the ceramic business from Stoke-on-Trent due to its cheaper dirtier energy, but does anyone tell China they can't use a lightbulb. First in the 60's we were stopped from using coal fired bottle kilns, then in the late 90's gas fired kilns were made expensive to use due the climate levy and all the paperwork to go with it. Am I going to be told I cannot use my electric kiln next because it uses too much electricity. But it is all ok because if I cannot fire ceramic bulbs, China will step in with some nice cheap poor quality ones.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Graham said:


> Of course not, do you believe that by using more of it it will stop getting more expensive? It will get more expensive regardless, so the only thing we can do to compensate is to find ways to use less of it.


opec will always control the supply of oil. the less we use, they less they produce. they're making money hand over fist anyway. they will always do all in their power to keep prices at a certain level. remember the '70's? when opec put the sqeeze on oil supply? man, did that suck!:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> ah, the benefits of just keeping snakes now:lol2:


i hear ya!!!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> because cavedude, it's like i said in my last post, conservation only happens with most folks when it hits them in the wallet. up until a couple years ago, gas was less than 99 cents a gallon here, like 1/2 a quid. i remember when it was 25 cents a gallon. american sports cars were traditonally just all about cubic inches and carburetor size. silly, while all the europeans and japanese were working on perfomance and effeciency, the american auto makers were busy giving the american market what they wanted. BIG, fast, luxurious vehicles. if gas costs a pittance, who cares about the efficiency? yeah, it's sad. but everytime detroit tied to follow mercedes and bmw's lead, no one would buy the cars. europeans it seems are well with precision bombing whereas americans are carpet bombers. oh, the stereotypes are mostly true about americans i'm afraid.
> turbocharging in engines and other technology was rare not so long ago. raw horsepower and massive cylinders were the tradition. now with gas about $3 a gallon, people here are begining to see the light. for this, i am glad. sorry, i ramble again.:lol2:


 
yeah, well im guilty of buying a buell in the past and my dad rides a 1450 hog, but thats pretty efficient really(well almost:lol2

Its always ben a joke over hear about american cars handling, saying they handle like sh*t cause the yanks aint got no corners:lol2:, so are more people over there driving imports? or are the manufacturers trying again?

Its funy when you see films like fast and the furious, or new driving games for consoles full of european and japanese cars, or younger bikers in citys of pocket rockets, maybe its a generational thing?:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, well im guilty of buying a buell in the past and my dad rides a 1450 hog, but thats pretty efficient really(well almost:lol2
> 
> Its always ben a joke over hear about american cars handling, saying they handle like sh*t cause the yanks aint got no corners:lol2:, so are more people over there driving imports? or are the manufacturers trying again?
> 
> Its funy when you see films like fast and the furious, or new driving games for consoles full of european and japanese cars, or younger bikers in citys of pocket rockets, maybe its a generational thing?:lol2:


haha!! sadly, all three big auto makers are slowly falling apart. european, japanese and korean cars are the majority. every world car manufacturer has been building plants here. detroit is dying. been terminal for some time.

here people buy a toyota.......made in tennessee!!!!:lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> haha!! sadly, all three big auto makers are slowly falling apart. european, japanese and korean cars are the majority. every world car manufacturer has been building plants here. detroit is dying. been terminal for some time.
> 
> here people buy a toyota.......made in tennessee!!!!:lol2:


yeah, we have the same with nissan being built in the UK, we still build land rovers, range rovers, aston martins, rolls royces and bentlys here(i think lol), but none are owned by UK companys anymore, the only UK owned manufacturers are small sports car manufacturers:lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

P.S. .....i think captaincaveman is a closet american.......:lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> P.S. .....i think captaincaveman is a closet american.......:lol2:


i got enough family over there:lol2:


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

HABU said:


> always remember, california is not a part of the united states. it's the land of fruits and nuts! i lived there for years. believe me we let them do whatever they want to. it's like a whole different country.


Arnie is governor that speaks for itself lol


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

Maybe we could just switch to 12V and use automotive bulbs, I reckon they'll still be around for a long time after 240V (or 120V for the yanks) domestic bulbs are history.


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

you will still be able to buy the reptile bulbs.. and buy bulbs in from europe (which no doubt a lot of reptile retailers on the net will start to do).. only thign they are going is phaseing out the sale of "high energy" light bulbs in the shops.. not banning their useage.. so it wont really affect us that much except that we will be forced to spend more to get what we want (or just switch to mercuary vapour bulbs which is what i plan to do with the lizards)


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

mEOw said:


> you will still be able to buy the reptile bulbs.. and buy bulbs in from europe (which no doubt a lot of reptile retailers on the net will start to do).. only thign they are going is phaseing out the sale of "high energy" light bulbs in the shops.. not banning their useage.. so it wont really affect us that much except that we will be forced to spend more to get what we want (or just switch to mercuary vapour bulbs which is what i plan to do with the lizards)


europes gonna have the same issues at the same time as us dude, its a european agenda


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

mEOw said:


> you will still be able to buy the reptile bulbs.. and buy bulbs in from europe (which no doubt a lot of reptile retailers on the net will start to do).. only thign they are going is phaseing out the sale of "high energy" light bulbs in the shops.. not banning their useage.. so it wont really affect us that much except that we will be forced to spend more to get what we want (or just switch to mercuary vapour bulbs which is what i plan to do with the lizards)


Unfortunately it is going to be a EU wide ban and anyone in Europe will be banned from selling them. I contacted my distributor in Australia today and he said they are even doing it there but not as quickly.


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I know I have already posted this but I am posting again incase anybody missed the point, As fas as I am aware (not 100% fact but i am 99% sure on this) Halogen spot bulbs will still be sold until a suitable alternative is available (sometime never?). Halogen spot bulbs, are directional, create basking temperatures, are dimmable and thermostatically controllable and come in a variety of wattages. I use them for basking sites in my beardies enclosures and they are (in my opinion) better than normal incandescent spot bulbs. So as in true dads army style - Dont Panic. There are alternatives.


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

Exactly, there are alternatives already if you care to look, and there will be more alternatives in future because people will need them, and yes they may well cost a bit more than we pay now but hopefully that'll be offset by longer life and greater energy efficiency, as with much of the new flourescent technology coming out now.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

sorry whats the difference with a halogen then? they are still 100watt etc so what ar ehalogen bulbs used for that is any different?
im not arguin, im asking as im not aware.
all im aware of is them being a brand name, thats it as far as my knowledge on them go....


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Graham said:


> Exactly, there are alternatives already if you care to look, and there will be more alternatives in future because people will need them, and yes they may well cost a bit more than we pay now but hopefully that'll be offset by longer life and greater energy efficiency, as with much of the new flourescent technology coming out now.


the main point for me Graham is...
if the only use is reptile keeping... [i cant think who else needs heat and light emmiting reflector bulbs] then an alternative will not be made cheaply if atall and it could further go against the hobby
*"reptile sadistics threaten to polute our enviroment by 80%" *
*"Freedom to keep exotics.....but at what price?"*

i see it all already is all


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

well, i'm buying stocks in coal


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

HABU said:


> well, i'm buying stocks in coal


If you find some that China does not own or hasn't already used.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> well, i'm buying stocks in coal


 
so what you saying dude, your gonna develop a coal basking light?:lol2: put me down for a couple:no1::lol2:


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## Morelia Matt (Dec 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> i ain't ragging on the UK, but wow! i don't have words.........crazy stuff.


Ragg away mate, its pathetic here now! micro chips in our cars soon too if they have it their way!! first iv heard of banning light bulbs though:grin1::grin1::grin1:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you guys seem to take laws literally. that's a proper way of looking at them. we americans, well, we are flawed. see, in our heart of hearts, deep down every american will have to admit that they take laws and regulations as a guideline. something that should be strived for. most americans have the attitude that "ain't no cops around, ain't no laws being broken". yep, i'll 'fess up to that. it ain't wrong if no ones looking. talk to the average american and they'll deny it. but deep down inside....


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

DeanThorpe said:


> sorry whats the difference with a halogen then? they are still 100watt etc so what ar ehalogen bulbs used for that is any different?
> im not arguin, im asking as im not aware.
> all im aware of is them being a brand name, thats it as far as my knowledge on them go....


I have cut and paste this from another site...

_A *halogen lamp* also uses a tungsten filament, but it is encased inside a much smaller *quartz envelope*. Because the envelope is so close to the filament, it would melt if it were made from glass. The gas inside the envelope is also different -- it consists of a gas from the _*halogen group*_. These gases have a very interesting property: They combine with tungsten vapor. If the temperature is high enough, the halogen gas will combine with tungsten __atoms__ as they evaporate and redeposit them on the filament. This *recycling* process lets the filament last a lot longer. In addition, it is now possible to run the filament hotter, meaning you get more light per unit of energy. You still get a lot of heat, though; and because the quartz envelope is so close to the filament, it is *extremely* hot compared to a normal light bulb._ 

But for us reptile keepers, they create a very intense white basking spot, which does bring out the colours in your reps a lot more than normal bulbs and they last longer - makers quote about 2-3,000 hours per bulb, So basically they throw out more light, heat and UVA for the wattage. And they are more expensive £13 - £14 for a 100W.


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

> [i cant think who else needs heat and light emmiting reflector bulbs]


Nor can I offhand, but there may be other applications that require them that we just can't think of at the moment. It may be a case of having to use a combination of different technologies, such as a MVB in combination with a ceramic heat emitter if the MVB isn't hot enough, or a halogen and a ceramic.
Personally I find MVBs work fine, I use 100W Floods and have no trouble getting my basking areas up to 35°C, although I typically only need around 32°C. I tried a 100W MVB Spot and found it far too hot unless I had it a long way from the basking area.
And now they are making MVBs in 60W versions too (see the MegaRay range) for the smaller enclosures, if the demand is there I bet they'll make them even smaller still.
Personally I think everyone's being far too gloomy and pessimistic about 
this, all that's required is a little creative thinking and you can find workable solutions even with currently available technology, and the technology is improving all the time.
So in the long run it may end up costing us all a bit more, but then _everything_ is going to cost us a _lot_ more in future, so we may as well get used to the idea. Energy is becoming a scarce commodity and there's nothing that governments can do to change that, oil, coal, and gas are finite resources and their replacements are expensive, wherever you live under whatever government this will catch up with you sooner or later.
Leave the country if you like, but you'll find that the grass really isn't greener elsewhere, you'll still find things you don't like wherever you go, every country has is problems and if you're the complaining type you'll always find plenty to complain about.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Graham
see i use basks of up to 130 degrees 
I dont like the colour a mvb alone gves off but im sure as i wont be the only person this affects....ill make do.
But i stand by my sig on that petition and i still think we need to be aloowed to vote on stuff like this.

Pink
so halogens last longer pink? i still dont get how they are better for the enviroment if they are the same watage tough, but thats cool, i use them sometimes anyway, but i also se the 4 for a quid jobbies lol.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

£13 quid each...FU** F*CK *UCK ME
OK I DONT USE ANY OF THOSE AT THE MOMENT BUT FAIR ENOUGH LOL.
I OBVIOUSLY WILL DO LOL


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

halogen bulbs arent THAT expencive.. They use em in disco lighting... I use them a fair bit, the Par38 halogen bulbs.. they are about £5 each for 100Watt and give of much more heat than a normal 100Watt R80 bulb.. 
Owen


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

Royal Boa said:


> Ragg away mate, its pathetic here now! micro chips in our cars soon too if they have it their way!! first iv heard of banning light bulbs though:grin1::grin1::grin1:


my micro chip will be attached to the first stray dog i find,what about the ones to go in your bins!!!
gaz


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## Morelia Matt (Dec 6, 2006)

gaz said:


> my micro chip will be attached to the first stray dog i find,what about the ones to go in your bins!!!
> gaz


well they will be in the nearest bin lorry! and yeah thats a good plan exept you'l get charged for every mile it roams... at least its economic? cant deny that


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

the star trek's borg: "you must assimilate, resistance is futile".....


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

The £13-£14 is current price for Zoo med and Lucky reptile ones, but as with all things you will find unbranded / non reptile branded ones cheaper. As far as I know they are not particularly enviromentally freindly apart from you get more light and heat from them for the same wattage, As far as I am aware though the boffins are currently unable to recreate this type of lighting in an enviromentally friendly version so we can still buy them until they do.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

yay for us


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## Scaley (Sep 25, 2007)

signed it! thanks 4 the info, we need 2 protect our herps + other reptiles!


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

Royal Boa said:


> well they will be in the nearest bin lorry! and yeah thats a good plan exept you'l get charged for every mile it roams... at least its economic? cant deny that


 
looks for nearest three legged dog.....................:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## bev336 (May 10, 2007)

It is all getting very reminiscent of Communist East Germany before the Berlin wall came down. You must conform and do as we say, no choices. But when it comes down to a light bulb, what will it be next. They will be telling you what you can and cannot read next, then it will be a curfew. And the environmental do gooders can moan as much as they like, I will still carry on driving my old landrover discovery no mater how much it cost just to p*ss them off.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

hey, i forgot to post this earlier but we're doing the same right here in town! only one difference, we're doing it american style. they are giving out tons of coupons for them to encourage there usage. now you can buy them for only $1 at walmart and other places with the coupon. at a buck a piece everybody's going to be stocking up! no need to pass a law. :grin1::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Scaley said:


> signed it! thanks 4 the info, we need 2 protect our herps + other reptiles!


 
not to mention humans with conditions such as severe light sensitivity and epilepsy which can be brought on by energy efficient bulbs..

GREAT...

im wondering if they wil stop this BIG BROTHER crap whent the first family sues the government due to enforced use of energy efficient lightbulbs causing an related epilepsy fit death!!!!!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

also


I JUST found out these energy bulbs contain mercury seemingly which the EU has JUST banned !!! im now very confused!


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## Xiorell (Aug 15, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> yeah, i see what your saying but it is a bit of a cop out:lol2:
> 
> One thing thats bugged me, maybe you can answer, why do american sports cars have massive engines (eg 6litre) and only produce as much bhp as a 2litre(ish) european sports car?
> 
> something ive never got? well that and the pick up truck thing:lol2:


Actually, I'd use a V8 over a Japcrap engine any day if you're talking about performance not efficiency.
Buy a muscle car out of the box, yeh, semi decent BHP, not alot else.
F*** about with that, actually DO something with it like people seem to want to with the pisspot engines, it'll be great.
Ever been in an Ultima GT with a 7.8lt V8 dropped in it, tuned to hell?
NOTHING will touch it, my ex GFs dad had this thing, it's eat a Carrera GT (we put that to the test, btw)


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> i cant think who else needs heat and light emmiting reflector bulbs


Children with Easy-Bake ovens?

Poultry farmers for their chick brooders?


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## Razaiel (Oct 17, 2006)

Has anyone noticed how the energy efficient ones flicker slightly overnight even if they've been switched off for hours? You don't notice it unless you get up in the night its really slight and I thought I was imagining it at first until I stared at the damn thing for like a minute ... in the daytime you wouldn't notice it at all. Weird - and how can that be saving energy if they are constantly flickering?


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Graham said:


> Am I the only one who sees a move to phase out inefficient incandescent bulbs as a good thing? I mean what's the problem, compact flourescents which are currently expensive will become much cheaper, and then your electricity bills will go down because you use less, sounds OK to me!
> Does anyone object to the move to make cars more fuel efficient, I mean would anyone actually prefer to have a car that only does 20 to the gallon when it could do 40, anyone really want to go back to the good old days of lead poisoning, isn't this the same thing?
> Face the facts, energy in all its forms is becoming more expensive, and generating more of it creates more pollution, sooner or later we'll have to do this whether government makes us or not, the smart ones have already made the switch and are enjoying the benefits.
> There are already alternatives to incandescents for our purposes, ceramics produce heat and flourescents provide light, Mercury Vapour lamps will still be available, LED technology is advancing and so will other technologies, they'll have to if incandescents are no longer available.
> ...


You're not the only one :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Children with Easy-Bake ovens?
> 
> Poultry farmers for their chick brooders?


childrens ovens? see I have no idea about that.
chick brooders yeh that makes sense, i didnt say there wasnt anything, just that I couldnt think of.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

they should just do it like us... not force people. too much goverment is a bad thing. now are you going to have the light bulb police on top of everything else? better to educate people and give incentives than to criminalize people. cameras everywhere, laws on just about everything. i'm all for people using them but beware of too much legislation of people's lives. laws tend to have fine print that is not right. if they just stop selling them, that's all they need to do. but watch, they'll have more than that attached to the law. just my opinion...: victory:


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