# Being A Rat Breeder



## danielle101 (May 8, 2008)

Can sum 1 please help me out abit, im looking into being a rat breeder but i dont know if i need anything to legally breed and sell my rats... 

I have hooded rats at the mo...
Beauties... LoL :2thumb:


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## Lyndyloo (May 8, 2009)

Have a look at the community forums page of www.fancy-rats.co.uk. The National Fancy Rat Society website is also very helpful, but to access their forum you need to be a current member of the NFRS. www.nfrs.org. I should point out though that neither of those sites look favourably on breeding from your own pet rats, or from stock bought from a pet shop.


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## danielle101 (May 8, 2008)

Oh okay lol, it was just a thought, here are some of my babys now...
Just over a week old...


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm likely to get strung up by the small and furry lovers for saying this but you don't necessarily need to be a member of NFRS to breed, just if you want to go on the show circut. I've been breeding ratties for just over 5 years now and have never and probably will never become a member myself.


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## danielle101 (May 8, 2008)

Hmmm, il have to think about it, does any 1 know what they will be, im juessing hoodys but im confused with the spots...

Have 4 dark ones and 4 light ones, keeping 2... one of each, these guys are for sale in about 4/5 weeks...


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## Nicquita (Mar 14, 2009)

if you have pet shop bought rats, i'd advise against breeding. pet shop rats come from awful places, basically like breeding factories. also, unless you sell the babies to pet shops, not many people will tend to buy, as people that buy from breeders are generally looking for show rats.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Nice babies there, we have alot in the nest at the moment both mums big litters lol!

I will now be doing just the one litter a time again. lmao.


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## danielle101 (May 8, 2008)

LoL, this litter was a mistake, glad she only had 8, ive herd they can have up to 15 or sumthin, she was bourght prego and she is really tame and handle-able, she loves coming out playing and i will never sell her, she is gorgeous (sp?) x


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Nicquita said:


> if you have pet shop bought rats, i'd advise against breeding. pet shop rats come from awful places, basically like breeding factories. also, unless you sell the babies to pet shops, not many people will tend to buy, as people that buy from breeders are generally looking for show rats.


Most people who come to me for babies get them for pet, not showing. That is after all what we breed for - showing is just a plus point.

The reason why people frown on breeding from pet shop rats is because you dont know what health problems they might be carrying. Whilst they may look happy and healthy, some illnesses (like a predisposition for cancer, or HLD, etc) dont show up until well past breeding age - that is why good breeders keep records of where their rats go, and what illnesses or temperament issues they get as they age. So that they can breed away from these problems.

You cant do that with pet shop rats, as you dont know what their parents died of, or their parents, or their parents. I have a lovely healthy boy here from a pet shop litter, if I'd have bought him without a sibling I'd never know that the rest of his litter all died very young from congenital heart defects.

I hate to see people being so snobby against the rat clubs and breeders who breed from well known lines. I thought we all loved rats - and surely if we all did, we'd only breed from ones with healthy lines - and not just to churn out more pets and spit at show breeders about their lack of ethics!

Most of the anti-breeder animosity you'll see is from people who dont care about their rats health - just making more pretty hairless siamese rex dumbo odd eye (insert as many other varieties as possible) with no regard for their health or temperament.


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## RCTLisa (Sep 18, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Most people who come to me for babies get them for pet, not showing. That is after all what we breed for - showing is just a plus point.
> 
> The reason why people frown on breeding from pet shop rats is because you dont know what health problems they might be carrying. Whilst they may look happy and healthy, some illnesses (like a predisposition for cancer, or HLD, etc) dont show up until well past breeding age - that is why good breeders keep records of where their rats go, and what illnesses or temperament issues they get as they age. So that they can breed away from these problems.
> 
> ...


I agree with what Lisa has just said.

I am a member of the NFRS, LSCMRC, FREC and MRC. I breed my rats to be happy, healthly and friendly and I mainly go to shows for the social side of things. And too show my rats off even if they aren't up to show standard.


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## danielle101 (May 8, 2008)

It was only a thought, Very informative and apreciated, Thanks


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

and one bit nobody has mentioned is. What if you can't sell the babies? You will have to either keep them all, or cull them for snake food.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

No breeder breeding for longevity, health and temperament would breed if they didn't think they could a. home their kittens or b. keep them all should they not be able to. How would you know whether there were any inherited health issues if you bumped them all off for feeder?

I know that's probably a hot issue on a reptile forum, but at the end of the day - feeder breeders are not capable of knowing what problems their rats might carry (eg higher rate of tumours, male aggression issues once their hormones are through etc).

So no pet breeder would cull their rats, as they wouldn't be able to keep the data to make informed choices for future plans.

And before someone says "that's only NFRS snobby breeders wot do that!" - it doesn't matter if they're bred for pet or show - all pet rats should be bred for health and temperament, regardless of colour or marking.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> No breeder breeding for longevity, health and temperament would breed if they didn't think they could a. home their kittens or b. keep them all should they not be able to. How would you know whether there were any inherited health issues if you bumped them all off for feeder?
> 
> I know that's probably a hot issue on a reptile forum, but at the end of the day - feeder breeders are not capable of knowing what problems their rats might carry (eg higher rate of tumours, male aggression issues once their hormones are through etc).
> 
> ...


 meanwhile in the real world, someone who keeps a few rats and likes them, decides to breed to sell as pets. So she breeds a few, but finds that she can't sell them. Petshops don't want them and people only want them if they are free or a £1 each. So she is left with a litter of say 10 young rats becoming sexually mature at a few weeks old, which need to be separated, so now, instead of having a few nice pet rats, she has more rats than she wants or needs and instead of them being cute pets, they are a chore, costing loads to feed them all and the large cages taking up loads of space.


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## superfly108 (Apr 18, 2009)

i find the best way to be as a breeder is to breed for your self, so you can have your perfect rats, and obviosuly most peoples perfect rat is a pritty rat that doesnt die to early in its life or have any horrible health problems later on in its life, generally most breeders will keep the best in their litters and so the ones sold as pets are ones they dont or wont require to continue breeding. (unless someone specfies to me they want a good marking for showing) any extras you have left over can go as pets and this is just the added bonus.
i dont see the point in breeding unless you are aiming to better your own rats. I find just set an aim and a date you want to reach that aim by and work towards it, ie this years aim for me and sherri is to have 2 lines, one british blue one russian blue, no particular marking but to bulk the size up as the orginal breeder rats were quite small, to breed out the roan in both these lines and to maintain good health throughout. Hopefully at the end of 2009, ill have some gorgious british blue and russian blue rats for my self, and lots of other people in and around Essex will also have some of my rats.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> meanwhile in the real world, someone who keeps a few rats and likes them, decides to breed to sell as pets. So she breeds a few, but finds that she can't sell them. Petshops don't want them and people only want them if they are free or a £1 each. So she is left with a litter of say 10 young rats becoming sexually mature at a few weeks old, which need to be separated, so now, instead of having a few nice pet rats, she has more rats than she wants or needs and instead of them being cute pets, they are a chore, costing loads to feed them all and the large cages taking up loads of space.


True. Which is why you should only breed for pet if you know you can rehome them all or keep them all. You wouldn't give them to a pet shop if you wanted to know their outcome anyway, which responsible breeders need to know for planning future litters.

I think you missed my point. I agree with you - dont breed unless you can keep them all should you need to.

*wanders off to wait for her next mum to pop - she's due today*


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## shiprat (Mar 16, 2009)

I am a member of YRC and have been a member of NFRS. I agree that breeding from pet shop bought is risky (unless for snake food)

Pet breeding is what i like doing. Making sure the rats are in good condition. The does are well looked after during pregnancy and nursing. The kittens are not pulled from mum to early so they get the most benefit.

I agree with all the comments and line breeding for temprement, but the best bit about breeding for pets is that the all the rats are handled and exercised making their temprement excellent.

If you are breeding for pets you need to make sure that homes are available. I have a doe to breed from this year. I usually only breed a doe once in her lifetime. I only usually have a couple of litters a year, this way i can put the time and energy into it and the babies get the best start!

good luck anyways


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## RCTLisa (Sep 18, 2008)

Be very careful. I am currently being "attacked" by the council to register as a pet shop as I can't sell animals direct to the public - or so they keep telling me


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

What I would like to do at some point in the future is get my hands on a lovely doe and buck from decent breeders and with their permission, breed one litter and keep all the offspring (even if that number does go well into double figures!). That way I get the experience of breeding and some wonderful pets who I've been with since day 1. Would you be interested in doing something like that? 

I think that unless you're a registered breeder with a good reputation, the sort of people who would approach you for kittens would be those who are clueless or don't care enough to pay that bit extra so expect you to sell for pennies. If you're still interested in breeding, I'd recommend joining the NFRS and starting to talk with some of the breeders there, going to rat shows and joining a few forums to get a better feel for the genetics of breeding. I'm not saying that good breeders only come from the NFRS, just that that's probably a good place to start.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Have you thought about fostering a litter for a rescue? I did that for experience before I started breeding, was by far the best experience I could have. And the happiness knowing they'd all gone to lovely homes was really great (although I did keep mum and 4 babies!).


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ps. Shiprat - I think most "show breeders" breed for pet too, just they also aim for good type, size and conformation. There are very few old school breeders about who dont aim for great pets first and foremost.

I breed for pet AND show, but because I chose marked varieties, you can imagine how often a "perfect" show rat comes along! I've only shown one rat this year in varieties! 

Of course, there are those who breed on a much larger scale, but it all depends on how much you can cope with. If I do any more than two litters at a time (and I usually only do one at a time, every 4-6 months - see my site for details of how few we've bred over the years lol) I find I cant keep up with the handling, and for me - being healthy, licky and confident is ten times more important than ears, colour or markings. So I breed very little compared to many, and as a consequence of that rarely have varieties class entries. I could show tonnes in pet class though - just lack of a car makes it hard to carry them all there on the bus!


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

danielle101 said:


> Oh okay lol, it was just a thought, here are some of my babys now...
> Just over a week old...
> 
> image


THey look like cream hoodeds the lighter ones hard to tell for sure at this age the darker ones look like they could be chocolates but again wont be able to say for sure till they are older. If oyu want to bred on a small scale you dont need a license or anything as far as i am aware I used to breed and sell in my local pet shop so not all pet shops sell from breeding farms despite what some people may beleive YEs alot do but not all so the owners could trace their background if they wanted to. Its the main pet shop chains that tend to use breeding farms not little independants. THey look like lovely babies too good luck with them hun and I am sure you will have no real probs finding them homes


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## mrsphas (Apr 26, 2010)

Issa said:


> I'm likely to get strung up by the small and furry lovers for saying this but you don't necessarily need to be a member of NFRS to breed, just if you want to go on the show circut.


i know this was posted over a year ago,[mighty thread ressurection peeps :lol2:] but for any new to rat people, you definately *do not* have to be a member of the nfrs, any forums, nor any clubs, to show, neither in pet nor variety

i have shown in both at various shows and am not a member of any clubs, nor the nfrs and wont be whilst so their so unreasonable about hairless and Drex as show rats OR shoulder rats [although i dont approve of shoulder rats due to the tramsmission of infections such as sda or the passing on of lice] and so dismissive, disaproving and tbh downright rude of those trying to improve the health temperament and lines of such rats


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Mrsphas, Unfortunately the issues that hairless rats have, are actually connected to the genes which cause them to be hairless... to correct these issues...you would have to breed out the hairless genes.... 

Which is why all past attempts at healthier hairless have failed, and why the NFRS regards them in the way they do, much like manx/tailles rats, theyre technically disabled.


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## mrsphas (Apr 26, 2010)

Minerva said:


> Mrsphas, Unfortunately the issues that hairless rats have, are actually connected to the genes which cause them to be hairless... to correct these issues...you would have to breed out the hairless genes....
> 
> Which is why all past attempts at healthier hairless have failed, and why the NFRS regards them in the way they do, much like manx/tailles rats, theyre technically disabled.


we will beg to differ re hairless, as is our right
but totally agree re tailless
eace:


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Out of curiousity, how do you think hairless could be made healthier?

I find the subject fascinating.


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## RCTLisa (Sep 18, 2008)

a note for those of you who breed for pets - be very, very careful. I got "attacked" by the local council for breeding and they wanted me to pay and register as a pet shop as I was breeding "pets" but because I show my rats I don't have too register. If you breed for pet only, you may well be required to register and I can tell you it is VERY expenisve. You do need to prove to them that you show and that you breed show quality animals, and you home the excess "stock" out to pet/show homes.

It was a very hard 4 months of stress to prove that I breed and show and those ones I didn't keep were sold to pet homes. As a breeder I breed for pet and show as both go hand in hand with each other - you don't want a scared, aggressive rat on the show bench as you won't get anywere!


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## missyrain (Feb 14, 2009)

RCTLisa said:


> a note for those of you who breed for pets - be very, very careful. I got "attacked" by the local council for breeding and they wanted me to pay and register as a pet shop as I was breeding "pets" but because I show my rats I don't have too register. If you breed for pet only, you may well be required to register and I can tell you it is VERY expenisve. You do need to prove to them that you show and that you breed show quality animals, and you home the excess "stock" out to pet/show homes.
> 
> It was a very hard 4 months of stress to prove that I breed and show and those ones I didn't keep were sold to pet homes. As a breeder I breed for pet and show as both go hand in hand with each other - you don't want a scared, aggressive rat on the show bench as you won't get anywere!


i have just seen your site you have some nice looking rats 
are you still being attacked?
banbury is a nice area council was fine with mine
would love to take up more rats again in the many years to come i down to my last ones now no more for another few years!


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## mrsphas (Apr 26, 2010)

RCTLisa said:


> a note for those of you who breed for pets - be very, very careful. I got "attacked" by the local council for breeding and they wanted me to pay and register as a pet shop as I was breeding "pets" but because I show my rats I don't have too register. If you breed for pet only, you may well be required to register and I can tell you it is VERY expenisve. You do need to prove to them that you show and that you breed show quality animals, and you home the excess "stock" out to pet/show homes.
> 
> It was a very hard 4 months of stress to prove that I breed and show and those ones I didn't keep were sold to pet homes. As a breeder I breed for pet and show as both go hand in hand with each other - you don't want a scared, aggressive rat on the show bench as you won't get anywere!



That of course depends on several factors
a] your council by laws
b] whether youre a tenant or private owner
c] how many you are actually selling a year
d] whether or not any inspector judges you are breeding/selling for profit
e] any complaints as rats, even fancy ones, are classed as vermin. with more than they judge 'sensible' for owning as pets you could be classed as 'infested'

not all councils are same
same as not all breeders are
Anyone looking for a good breeder needs to visit, look at rats,
look at keeping conditions
make sure the rats that are said to be the parents actually are [after all theyre seperated by the time theyre 'for sale']
look at the ethics of the breeder, 
ask questions,
do they cull the ones not sold?
do they humanely treat/euthanise runts or rats born disabled 
or 
'just let nature take its course' which could mean days of starving and dehydration
what do they keep their rats on
what food
how often have they been handled

lots of people think rats are just rats, but if you want good ethically bred rats from good ethically kept and bred from parents and grandparents its important to ask ask and ask some more
Never ever buy just on the evidence of pictures or word of mouth, both can be doctored


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## RCTLisa (Sep 18, 2008)

It all part of the Pet Animal Act which is law so it applies to everyone and is not dependent on your local council - I got that from a group who's job it is to support those who are having issues with councils and such like.

I had to prove that I show my rats and how many litters I have had and the reason why I had bred them. It is just a warning for those who have website and state they only breed for pets who are going to open to problems!


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## mrsphas (Apr 26, 2010)

RCTLisa said:


> It all part of the Pet Animal Act which is law so it applies to everyone and is not dependent on your local council - I got that from a group who's job it is to support those who are having issues with councils and such like.
> 
> I had to prove that I show my rats and how many litters I have had and the reason why I had bred them. It is just a warning for those who have website and state they only breed for pets who are going to open to problems!



before we go worryworting 
this is what the afformentioned act states

*The Pet Animals Act 1951 *

The Pet Animals Act 1951 (as amended in 1983) protects the welfare of animals sold as pets. *The Act requires any person keeping a pet shop to be licensed by the local authority. *Before granting a licence the local authority must be satisfied that the animals are kept in accommodation that is both suitable and clean; that they are supplied with appropriate food and drink; and are adequately protected from disease and fire. The local authority may attach any conditions to the licence, may inspect the licensed premises at all reasonable times and may refuse a licence if the conditions at the premises are unsatisfactory or if the terms of the licence are not being complied with. 
Local authorities are responsible for enforcing the law in this area and anyone who has reason to believe that a pet shop is keeping animals in inadequate conditions should raise the matter with the local authority who will decide what action to take within the range of its powers. 
Under s.2 pets cannot be sold in the street, including on barrows and markets.


so unless someone reports you as running a business selling animals for profit ie petshop, then it most certainly does not apply to anyone just breeding rodents [as opposed to dogs, cats, horses, donkeys and their hybrids, non human primates, as these have their own laws and by laws]for pets as a hobby

mind, then of course, the high ad mighty rat police would call anyone breeding as a hobby a byb and hound them to kingdom come

if its one thing you learn very quickly its to grow a thick hide and :Na_Na_Na_Na: to those who dont know you or your ethics, but are willing to do you down at every opportunity


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

It actually does apply to anyone selling babies that isn't breeding specifically for show. Hobby breeding is breeding for show and rehoming rats (for a fee or not) that are surplus. Anyone who words it as if they are breeding for pets first and foremost is potentially under the Act (as they are not just homing surplus animals), as Lisa said.


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## missyrain (Feb 14, 2009)

RCTLisa said:


> It all part of the Pet Animal Act which is law so it applies to everyone and is not dependent on your local council - I got that from a group who's job it is to support those who are having issues with councils and such like.
> 
> I had to prove that I show my rats and how many litters I have had and the reason why I had bred them. It is just a warning for those who have website and state they only breed for pets who are going to open to problems!


lots of people breed for pets not everyone wants to be travling around miles to get to shows


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Lisa was only making people aware of it, as its happened to her. So if its a risk you want to take then take it.


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## missyrain (Feb 14, 2009)

people should look into things before hand


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

missyrain said:


> people should look into things before hand



We all know most dont. :lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

missyrain said:


> people should look into things before hand


Absolutely but these loopholes are not easy to prepare for or know about in advance, so I would be grateful for Lisa's advise and help. I know I am, it's made me reword my entire website. 

No, not everyone wants to breed for show (nor was Lisa implying that anyone shouldn't from what I can see), which is why they need to be extra careful about not falling into the trap.


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## missyrain (Feb 14, 2009)

no they dont they just stick 2 in a cage then thats it they dont really care about where they are going or whats going to happen to them 
most breeders are good just not the freeders breeders but i have been told they treat them like pets before they end up dinner


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## mrsphas (Apr 26, 2010)

KathyM said:


> It actually does apply to anyone selling babies that isn't breeding specifically for show. Hobby breeding is breeding for show and rehoming rats (for a fee or not) that are surplus. Anyone who words it as if they are breeding for pets first and foremost is potentially under the Act (as they are not just homing surplus animals), as Lisa said.



no, anyone breeding for pets *and *proved to be selling for profit, a blooming hard thing to do with rodents of any sort, let alone rats, is at risk
your average hobby breeder breeding good solid pets will never be making a profit, nor get brownie points for doing it from the rat fancy

good to see you twins still stick up for each other tho :2thumb:

on a personal level, I have to say Im hoping that s.2 of The Pet Animals Act 1951 (as amended in 1983) will soon be enforced on animals sold from the show bench and taken to shows for sale too, a disgusting practice that brings no end of sufferring to kittens far to young to have such trials forced upon them.
However it already covers those kittens repeatedly passed around and sold in the carpark, to get around the self imposed bylaws many of the clubs brought in, and club committees should be aware that condoning such practise, by turning a blind eye, leaves them open to prosecution


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

mrsphas said:


> no, anyone breeding for pets *and *proved to be selling for profit, a blooming hard thing to do with rodents of any sort, let alone rats, is at risk
> your average hobby breeder breeding good solid pets will never be making a profit, nor get brownie points for doing it from the rat fancy
> 
> good to see you twins still stick up for each other tho :2thumb:
> ...



Do you go to shows? Cause i sure have never seen them sold in the car park. I havnt seen under sized ones before either. 
Anyway if you have a problem with the show with a kitten tabe maybe take it up with the club instead of bashing someone about it. 
I dont know who you are so i cant comment much more than that. 
I havnt been to shows much i went when i was 14-16 and went to one this month first time in 2 years.


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## Jacky s (Jan 29, 2011)

I only know of one club that has a 'kitten sales' table, it is not something that most of the good clubs allow


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Breeders differ in standards, just as their rats do. I wouldn't say all breeders of a certain type are good. I have a set of practices that I believe are fundamentally good but I can't apply them to all breeders of certain groups. I would prefer to buy pets from a breeder that follows certain practices, and that would be regardless of whether they were members of clubs or showed their rats. I would consider actively breeding towards better health and temperament to be one of those things, variety coming second to both of those issues. I am a member of the NFRS and yet am not against hairless breeding if it can be proven that their health is being actively worked on - I even recently posted a wanted for a hairless pet. After talking to hairless breeders recently who have focused on health, it seems a bit hopeless at the moment sadly - many breeders have given them up because they feel it is impossible to breed a healthy hairless rat.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

It would be worth checking with your local councils trading and licensing officer. Worth knowing whats what if you want to be a breeder. I know for breeding dogs you need a license. There may be different rules for different counties - not usually but worth checking out. One phone call could save embarrassment later.


(Anyone can breed a dog but to do it as a business you need a licence and would therefore expect the same with any other animal. They would book a vet inspection which you would have to pay for.)


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

mrsphas said:


> good to see you twins still stick up for each other tho :2thumb:


Hang on a minute? I have another twin? RCT Lisa is another Lisa. I agreed with her because she's talking sense and I have experience of this with local councils and other people. :lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

mrsphas said:


> no, anyone breeding for pets *and *proved to be selling for profit, a blooming hard thing to do with rodents of any sort, let alone rats, is at risk
> your average hobby breeder breeding good solid pets will never be making a profit, nor get brownie points for doing it from the rat fancy


This has nothing to do with profit (which I don't believe can be done raising a litter properly) and everything to do with the wording of websites and the purpose for which you are breeding. Of course if you're breeding rats for pets and not selling them, they're not going to be interested, but if you charge for them (even if it's not making a profit) the councils do tend to trawl the websites to check wording. 



> on a personal level, I have to say Im hoping that s.2 of The Pet Animals Act 1951 (as amended in 1983) will soon be enforced on animals sold from the show bench and taken to shows for sale too, a disgusting practice that brings no end of sufferring to kittens far to young to have such trials forced upon them.


How is a rat going to a show making a rat suffer? If you're talking about kitten tables, I fully agree. If you're talking about the practice of "rat trains" I believe that safely done they are a benefit to rats, rescue and bred alike. 



> However it already covers those kittens repeatedly passed around and sold in the carpark,


Which clubs do you go to? I go to a mixture of clubs and have never seen this activity. The clubs where I attend (YRC, some NERS and NFRS) all expect rats being handed over to be recorded. Practices have become much tighter since the SDAV outbreak and rightly so. I think perhaps your views are a little out of date and would encourage people to come along to shows - it is so much more than a varieties competition and the pet owner side of things is very much the focus nowadays. My daughter loves her rats taking part in the pet classes and agility.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

If you are making a lot of money from a hobby that hobby is a business.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

animalstorey said:


> If you are making a lot of money from a hobby that hobby is a business.


id love to see how anyone rearing baby rats is making money...i ended up with an accidental litter and they cost so much more in food, lactol and time than i ever could of made back selling them all


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## Jacky s (Jan 29, 2011)

animalstorey said:


> If you are making a lot of money from a hobby that hobby is a business.


if you make any money from breeding rats i would love to know how lol, my lot cost me a fortune and even if i sold every kitten in a litter i would not make a profit


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Jacky s said:


> if you make any money from breeding rats i would love to know how lol, my lot cost me a fortune and even if i sold every kitten in a litter i would not make a profit


LOL I echo Jacky's sentiments.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

mrsphas said:


> no, anyone breeding for pets *and *proved to be selling for profit, a blooming hard thing to do with rodents of any sort, let alone rats, is at risk
> your average hobby breeder breeding good solid pets will never be making a profit, nor get brownie points for doing it from the rat fancy
> 
> good to see you twins still stick up for each other tho :2thumb:
> ...


Epic fail, Miss Marple you are not.

Incidentally, I dont know of any shows where rats are not logged in and health checked before being given back to be exchanged. Either you are mistaken, or you have not been around shows for a very long time.

The other Lisa is speaking from experience, if you choose to risk prosecution, that's your problem, but dont come crying if you're next. Poor Lisa went through the mills, and she's a very responsible breeder breeding for a good purpose, not some BYB with a chip on her shoulder.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

I wasn't thing rats we on a reptile and exotic mammal forum and some ones out there making good business. Shame it's not us! Lol.  By the time you've fed them, bed them, played with them, cared for them, worried sick over them them, found homes for them, there isn't often any pennies left, usually its an empty wallet because it's trip to shop for more food in the morning.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

animalstorey said:


> I wasn't thing rats we on a reptile and exotic mammal forum and some ones out there making good business. Shame it's not us! Lol.  By the time you've fed them, bed them, played with them, cared for them, worried sick over them them, found homes for them, there isn't often any pennies left, usually its an empty wallet because it's trip to shop for more food in the morning.


LOL absolutely!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Most of mine go to friends for free or returning owners from previous litters, when you've got a litter of 3 or 6, keeping two, homing out a couple to friends - love to know how a good breeder is meant to make a profit. Still transport, shows, bedding, food, vets etc to pay for, and nothing coming back in to cover it, I've not had one litter where I've not made a significant loss.

But that's what I choose to do for my hobby. I love them, I love showing - small price to pay really.

Hubby wouldn't agree :lol2:


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

We all do. 

I'd love a pair of nice English blues and Russian blues again.


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## RCTLisa (Sep 18, 2008)

Lover said:


> Lisa was only making people aware of it, as its happened to her. So if its a risk you want to take then take it.


This is basically what I am doing. You have the information it is up to you what you choose to do with it. Anyone who is on the NFRS forum will tell you how much trouble this caused me and I wasn't reported (you can find out this information from the council).

mrsphas I don't think you understand the ruling on the Animal act which the council can get you on. Section 7 is the one which they are using to catch people out on. As it has already been mentioned, if you state on your website that you breed for PET only you are open to being misrepresented.


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Lover said:


> Cause i sure have never seen them sold in the car park. I havnt seen under sized ones before either.
> Anyway if you have a problem with the show with a kitten tabe maybe take it up with the club instead of bashing someone about it.


I can assure you it does go on sometimes I'm afraid despite clubs best efforts....that I say as somebody who has been in receipt of some breeding rats on a car park as the breeder didn't think much of kitten exchange rules, and that I also say as somebody who bought a _very_ tiny kitten once at a show before I knew better :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I do agree there have been a few occasions where babies on the table have been teeny tiny. I dont personally use the kitten table and never will, I prefer to get to know my new owners a bit better. I'm lucky in that I usually only have one litter every few months, so have a waiting list built up by the time babies arrive, or if not - at least by the time they're ready. However, it has been tough sometimes when I've had a whole litter of identical babies!

The rules have changed lots over the years, you can only buy kittens if you've been a member for a specific amount of time, cant tell you how long that is personally as I haven't ever needed to know :blush: Do I think kitten tables should be about? I should say yes, being part of the club, and must admit it is awful tempting to GMR when there are babies about. But would I miss it if it went? Not really.

It's easy to judge when things look black and white. Sadly you will find that some breeders dont have homes lined up for one reason or another, or their waiting list goes to pot (I've had many cancellations on mine due to litters not arriving on time, or people getting bored of waiting weeks), some of us can manage with keeping kittens til they're homed, some cant. Not going to judge them - as there's many different reasons why. Eg. they're not all breeders who've made more than they can handle (although I'm sure that is the case sometimes).


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Just to weigh up though - I have seen far far more undersized babies for sale at 4 weeks old on this forum, than I ever have at a show.

You dont often see people complaining about those babies, or those sold in trios to be kept in rubs, etc. At least at a club you know the people there are going to get care info and support and advice, and if they're at a show in the first place, and have been members for the amount of time they need to be to buy from the table, that is unlikely to be an impulse decision, as many pet shop and feeder bred rats are.


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Minerva said:


> I can assure you it does go on sometimes I'm afraid despite clubs best efforts....that I say as somebody who has been in receipt of some breeding rats on a car park as the breeder didn't think much of kitten exchange rules, and that I also say as somebody who bought a _very_ tiny kitten once at a show before I knew better :lol2:


Noway, i used to go to shows a lot when i was younger never seen it happen but things were less strict so could of been me missing things, i went this month the car park was empty no one outside when i kept sneaking out with Evie. the rats all looked good sizes for sale although i didnt exactly look much because i have my two dont want to be tempted with more. :lol2:
Ey Laura im moving house it is hugeee and has a heated outhouse, you keep yours outside in heated outhouse dont you? do you think mine will be ok in there? its more like a extension to the house with heating and lighting but looks more for storage. I have nothing to go in there thought it would be good for my pair.(in there cage of course lol.)


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

I had a litter of 10.
It took me a while to get them new homes.
The money I got has simply paid for food etc and I gave a few away free to friends.
I enjoyed seeing them grow and then seeing them move onto new homes.
On a plus note it has been good for my children seeing them from birth to grow older and to move on to new homes.


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