# Another Unexpected RETF Death



## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

What the hell is going on lately!?

I was sat up watching my frogs til gone midnight, just fed them, all hunting, chirping and no signs of illness.

I came down this morning about 9.30am to find one dead and absolutely blathered in soil, almost as if it had been sand blasted.

I just do not understand! Why are retfs really suffering at the moment?

It's bloody soul destroying to lose a frog but even more so when there seems to be no reason behind it. Makes me think, is it worth it. The money the frogs cost alone, I've gone all out on the tank easily £300+ and the fact I love them so much makes me question the whole keeping red eyeds in captivity. 

I honestly think there's alot we don't know about this particular species requirements yet. It can't just be coincidence that so many seem to die unexplainabley


----------



## StephanieDragon (Dec 24, 2008)

I dont have any answers as i have never owned a frog but i am sorry for your loss and i hope you dont decide to give up on them as they make you so happy. It might be worth ringing an expert and explain the situation ... it may be something really sinmple.


----------



## Kazerella (Jan 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your Red eye


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Yours as well? Im thinking that perhaps in this hot weather pathogens are multiplying too quickly in our closed systems or they need more ventilation to keep them cooler.


----------



## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Would it be worth sending Pollywog an email?


----------



## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

I just don't know. I'm well down in the dumps about it atm.

It's not like I even know how to prevent it as it was absolutely fighting fit at 12 last night!! Sickening


----------



## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

oh I am so sorry to hear this mate! terrible news  they do seem to be dropping like flies at the mo, just hope mine don't had my share of that a few months ago  xxx R.I.P little froggy xxx


----------



## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Sorry to hear abour your loss (


----------



## shiftylou (Apr 27, 2008)

Sorry to heard about your little frog, the weather has been really hot right now, maybe if the tank is in a warm place to move it to a cooler section of the room? hope all the others are ok, chin up xx


----------



## Snookers (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm really sorry Weenoff, dare I say I know how you feel having lost one of mine on Sunday. He was fine during the night then turned a strange colour and died within a couple of hours the next day, I don't understand. I think you're right, we don't know everything about them while we keep them in captivity. Maybe the sudden extreme heat then suddenly going cooler again has upset them or something, or disease can survive and pass easier with the heat as Javeo said :sad:


----------



## redeyedanny (Feb 16, 2007)

Its happened to me in the past also. Frogs been absolutley fine, all requirements met, then the next day dead. 

Your not alone mate.


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

sorry to here that mate, keep ya chin up.

Maybee it is worth some one getting there deceased PMed to see if there is a bacteria or desease.

I dont believe it has any thing to do with them being in captivity and our lack of knowledge on the species. they have been being kept succesfully for years uk and abroad and there is a hole aray of books, papers and knowledge on them. the fact that they can be CB shows how far we have come keeping them and that they are comfortable and dare i say happy in captivity.


----------



## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

sorry for your loss but don't give up maybe as said a pm could give u some anwsers.


----------



## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

For a while now a large number of imported Red-eyes have, in my experience, been carrying a fungal infection. It appears this fungus can lay dormant and show no signs until environmental conditions change, most notably with a rise in humidity.

Have any of the people who have experienced losses been making breeding attempts or misting their frogs more frequently due to the high summer temperatures?

Thanks to my quarantine & acclimatisation procedures I have had success in treating & establishing some of these recent imports. So far I have found it possible to treat some cases using certain readily available anti-fungal remedies, some more serious cases have been treatable with courses of more than one anti-fungal remedy, but effective treatments and the results are very much dependant on the stage at which the problem is caught and if there are any underlying bacterial infections.

So for those of you who have had "mysterious" deaths in Red-eyed Treefrogs I would suggest you have the deceased & any surviving tank mates looked at by a vet and ask for particular attention to be paid to any possible fungal infections.


----------



## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

what pollywog is saying now makes alot of sense, could it be that most wild caughts are harboring such disease? if you cb will this pass on or will you get an all clean species?


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

My thoughts also, I think my male was a wild caught and his condition showed up when he went into a rain chamber. Could you pm me the name of the medication you use?


----------



## Young996 (Jul 1, 2009)

Sorry to hear that, just gives me less hope for my male.


----------



## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

yeh that makes sense for me also. I made a new set-up with much more water and have been using a bloody fogger! When I look at my frogs now, they seem to have very faint white lines accross their back! I know its not normal, I'm gonna have to take them to a vet.

The problem is, I dont effin trust vets. I wish there was some experts near me


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Could you pm me the name of the medication you use?



me to please.


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Mine was Captive bred...the first two (In January or February) did show signs of illness, Betty though just slowed down a little. You could tell because her colour took longer to change, she still slept high, hunted, bathed, and did everything funny I loved to watch, just a bit slower...Fred is seeming lonely. He looks great, though he has never really been that active...the tank was cleaned and such and I now just use a water dish so I can make sure the water is perfect...for anyone experienceing temp changes due to weather...dont turn your lights on!

My recent loss have put me off of keeping frogs, especially such fragile ones and I plan to sell two of my smaller tanks that were kept for darts...so sad.


----------



## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

Yeh, I know exactly how you feel! I almost phoned my friend and sold the lot of them yesterday. It was only when I went upstairs and looked in the tank evaluating what to do that I thought, 'I couldn't physically hand them over for any amount of money.' 
I had massive plans to buy a shed, kit it all out just with retfs in many different tanks and start a proper breeding programme but I just don't think I'll even try it now.

I don't think I'll be buying anymore


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Weenoff said:


> I had massive plans to buy a shed, kit it all out just with retfs in many different tanks and start a proper breeding programme but I just don't think I'll even try it now.
> 
> I don't think I'll be buying anymore


dont give up, i have lost frogs and i am still sticking to my plans of getting a shed.


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Of course dont give up, the problem with living things is that they can die! I plan on getting some more males and having another go at breeding next year. But I will be using circulation fans, conditioning the sexes seperately and i'll make sure the males are cb and young.


----------



## Weenoff (Jun 9, 2008)

I just bought a vivarium fan too. Only like a tenner on ebay. 

And Javeo, I was wondering what benefits you hope there could be from cycling the sexes seperately?


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

This is more to do with the actual conditioning of the frogs rather then disease prevention but the males do get too 'clingy' and dont eat as much and also stress out the females.


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

i can see the benefits of cycling seperatly, but does more moves not equal more stress?


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

I dont know to be honest. I would say not with cb stock, my females never show signs of stress. They were eating within minutes of being moved into the rain chamber and again when they were moved back. Obviously I took precautions in moving them, ie wet latex gloves and I allowed them to climb onto my hand rather than grab them.


----------



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Javeo said:


> I dont know to be honest. I would say not with cb stock, my females never show signs of stress. They were eating within minutes of being moved into the rain chamber and again when they were moved back. Obviously I took precautions in moving them, ie wet latex gloves and I allowed them to climb onto my hand rather than grab them.


I'd be inclined to agree.

Keeping the sexes seperate for most of the year will enhance their receptiveness to one another once introduced and allows a hasslefree portion of the year to just get on with eating and relaxing. 

I certainly don't see the move to a new enclosure twice per year (into and out of the rain chamber) as prohibitively stressful, infact it's nothing given that I think ideally you should handle in order to fully check over your individual amphibians once weekly!


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> I certainly don't see the move to a new enclosure twice per year (into and out of the rain chamber) as prohibitively stressful, infact it's nothing given that I think ideally you should handle in order to fully check over your individual amphibians once weekly!


if you read the post i said does it equal more stress. red eyes stress very easily and being cycled and moved once highly stressed javeos.

I check my amphibians vsiually every day and dont agree that each frog should be put through a full examination each week.


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

As I said I think the difference is between wc and cb. Also as my male was kept with the females he spent alot of time either clinging to one of them, and I have 3, or calling. I think this stopped him from gaining the weight that may have saved him in the end.
Although none of my red eyes seem to particularly mind being handled, ie they dont try to escape and will even feed on my hand, I prefer not to handle them as its just another avenue of stress, injury thats not worth the risk.


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

thats the problem (or one of) with WC is that they are extremley fragile, dont settle very well and stress very easily.


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

So would anyone think that perhaps keeping red eyes from Juviniles can sometimes be better? I asked for adult CB RETF because I read that they would be used to captivity, movement, and false enviroments, as well as feeding and should easily cope with stress...not that I give them much, just when cleaning, but even at that they never even opened their eyes and I am always careful to know exactly where they are before I move anything to avoid them...I dont know...I have two arboreal tanks, one 45x60 and empty, and one 60x60 with little Fred in it...just seems a bit sad really...

I am thinking of moving him to the narrow tank and keeping him by himself with plenty of room...I have always wanted darts...but am really hessitating to spend the money (with three kids to feed lol) and take the very real risk that they will just die...unless they are more hardy...I just dont know...I am really gutted about Betty...it has just thrown me.


----------



## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Atleast we are getting closer to a viable solution in preventing the deaths


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

i would say raising CB red eyes from real young is harder than buying a grown on CB. but the problem is always being 100% sure where the stock came from large frogs make it real hard to tell thats why buying from a breader is always a good option.

Darts are relativly hard to keep but with previous experience and a good quality set up they cant be any harder than red eyes. Im told that they respond better to treatments when ill so that is always a plus.

I can understand peoples dissapointment at loosing frogs, i have and it does make you feel poo but it is no reason to give up. as said already keeping living things means that you will face deaths and illness. its just a question of picking your self up, solving the problem and moving on.

If peoples hearts are not in it any more then they should re-evaluate the situation and think long and hard before buying any more so as not to purchase a living creature they may not give 100% dedication to.


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> Atleast we are getting closer to a viable solution in preventing the deaths


till someone with a deceased gets a PM i dont think we even know what we are up against.


----------



## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

knighty said:


> till someone with a deceased gets a PM i dont think we even know what we are up against.


No that's true but were getting into a good debate now which is starting to bring things to light.

Is anyone who has had a recent passing willing to get a PM done ?


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> No that's true but were getting into a good debate now which is starting to bring things to light.
> 
> Is anyone who has had a recent passing willing to get a PM done ?


i think pollywog made a good point about WC carrying infections, and increased humiditys is probably some thing we have all faced with the hot weather and extra misting to try and stop the vivs drying out. plus the breading season has led to people tryin to bread them.

I personally doubt any one that has had a pssing will get one done:devil:


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Ilovetoads, Darts are different to red eyes, though easier or harder to keep is difficult to say. They are active during the day, and they are alot more active then red eyes so any problems are quickly noticed. They do respond better to treatment, I had a azureus that was being bullied and became very thin and lethargic. I moved him into a seperate viv and now he is back to normal and living with 2 juvenile luecs. I did lose 2 darts in the begining but I did a PM and found they were infested with worms, I started treating them and they are ok now, I do still check their dropping every week under a microscope just in case.


----------



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

knighty said:


> if you read the post i said does it equal more stress. red eyes stress very easily and being cycled and moved once highly stressed javeos.
> 
> I check my amphibians vsiually every day and dont agree that each frog should be put through a full examination each week.


 
Not sure what your point is mate. 

I was agreeing with Javeo's husbandry choices, While any move in stressful, I said that the amount of stress in this twice yearly move wasn't sufficient to outweigh the benefits of housing the sexes seperately until breeding time (which infact = less stress).

We check all amphibians that are out and about visually on a daily basis and physically on a once weekly basis, this is often crucial in spotting issues before they take a hold... Perhaps less animals would die "for no reason" is people did this...


----------



## Javeo (May 4, 2008)

Perhaps you are right Charlotte, but the status quo is amphibians, esp retf, should be handled as infrequently as possible. 
I agree that the sexes should be kept seperate if your doing everything else to get them into breeding condition, but most people would be sceptical about handling them on as regular basis.


----------



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Javeo said:


> Perhaps you are right Charlotte, but the status quo is amphibians, esp retf, should be handled as infrequently as possible.
> I agree that the sexes should be kept seperate if your doing everything else to get them into breeding condition, but most people would be sceptical about handling them on as regular basis.


totally agree mate.


----------

