# creamsicle + snow corn x albino rat



## eileensimpson (May 17, 2007)

what would I get out of the above pairing?
male is a cross between albino black rat and snow corn and the female is a creamsicle (corn x rat).
Just wondered if anyone knew what I'd get as there isn't anywhere I can find on the internet that tells me.
thanks


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

again...

mongrels.

(corn x rat) x (corn x rat) theres no name for what your are producing. you are producing hybrids/crosses with snakes or unknown parentage on both sides.


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## eileensimpson (May 17, 2007)

Mason said:


> again...
> 
> mongrels.
> 
> (corn x rat) x (corn x rat) theres no name for what your are producing. you are producing hybrids/crosses with snakes or unknown parentage on both sides.


I'm just wondering what sort of colours they will be!
As I put in my other post it is only going to be done so I can learn about breeding, incubating etc.
Plus I will always sell them as what they are!
Hybrids will be sold as hybrids and people will know exactly what the parents are!
If they then sell them on as something else that is not my fault!!!


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

surely it would be possible to wait until you have two animals of the same species to learn about breeding?

while that is a different reason that is still breeding for breedings sake..

Plus if you waited until you have a "matching pair" you could actually learn PROPERLY by going through the preparation for the breeding season (cooling etc) not to mention follow proper quarenteen too. All you'll actually learn this way it how to incubate eggs, because as far as the actual breeding goes you're not doing muhc right. It's pretty late on in breeding season now for those species, thye've not been coooled and prepared nor gone through QT, if you are trying to learn something...might as well do it properly. you'll have more sucess too. plus I imagine hatchlings would be easier to sell if they weren't crosses and people had the confidence in knowing you bothered with QT etc..


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

can i just point something out..... 

i've not been looking in to corn genetics for long.... I tend to only research what I have, and what they will produce rather than what everything would produce mixed with whatever else..

but we have a poss creamsicle here atm on breeding loan (the one that laid eggs)... and so I asked about her... 

A creamsicle is an Amel corn x Great plains rat... 

REGARDLESS of how far back the rat snake is..

So all you need to make more creamsicles... is a male amel corn. 

The babies would all be creamsicles.. so there's no point putting it with whatever else will mate with her. It dilutes the species, and it's not about who's fault it is what they are sold as... 

If you don't breed them together in the first place, just for the sake of breeding... then there can be no blame to be passed about later on. 

If you're still going to breed her, then put her with an Amel male... Then it's still a hybrid, but still what it is 'meant' to be... 

Sami


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## VieT (Jul 10, 2007)

eileensimpson said:


> If they then sell them on as something else that is not my fault!!!


yes it would ebcause you know this will happen...

and how can you say "ill sell them as what they are" when clearly you havent a clue exactly what they are... hence why your asking...
-----------------------

gotta ask tho (asking mason/sami)

would it even be possible ? or would it be classed as a second generation hybrid... wich im told is nigh impossible ??

or would this be (for example) cornXrat - X king 

peace

James


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

VieT said:


> would it even be possible ? or would it be classed as a second generation hybrid... wich im told is nigh impossible ??
> 
> or would this be (for example) cornXrat - X king


When you are talking about hybrids with cornsnakes second-and-more generations are relatively simple. Not all creamsicles are the result of a first generation cross (indeed, in order to get visual amel most of them are second gen) ... and I've seen several animals listed that stated four or more separate species/subspecies went into their making. 

I have no doubt that for example a first generation jungle made using a California Kingsnake and a Cornsnake could be successfully bred to a North American Ratsnake that had one Black Rat parent and one Great Plains Rat parent.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

but how pure is pure anwyay

the more i look into corn genetics the more differences of opinion i see held about how for instance cinders came about or other morphs..

if WAY back in the breeding there was some other rat species blood then a trip genetci code can could possibly cause mew morphs... maybe .. maybe not...

and until they can prove or disprove these theries i prefer to hang off making a final decision...

a lot of corn breeders and keepers feel very strongly a fair few of these pure corn morphs have infact got some rat snake blood that has unlocked genes and some morphs head shapes and colours definately look more rat that others...

specific rats snake species have been said to have been gene unlockers and although it cant be proven it cant be disproven..

hybrids within rat/ corn i think WAY back is probably what has cause SOME of our morphs..

plenty wil disagree... but i know a lot also agree..

im not saying its right or wrong to breed rat to corn..

but it is interesting 

it will be excellent if they ever come up with a way of testing and fabulous if we can finally set the arguements to rest on the whole PURE CORN debate..


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

eileensimpson said:


> what would I get out of the above pairing?
> male is a cross between albino black rat and snow corn and the female is a creamsicle (corn x rat).
> Just wondered if anyone knew what I'd get as there isn't anywhere I can find on the internet that tells me.
> thanks


Well, if your Black Rat/Corn cross is visually amelanistic... you'd expect to get a load of amelanistic North American Ratsnakes. If it isn't amelanistic then you'd expect half "normal" North American Ratsnakes which could look like anything - and half amelanistic North American Ratsnakes.


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## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

my vote is creamsicles and rootbeers with some interesting genes possibly available second generation. They'd all be 50% het albino from the black rat, and 50% het anery, and the rootbeers would be 100% het amel.

I think anyway, not sure how the black rat's albino works, and they wouldn't REALLY be rootbeers as there's some other rat blood, but it'd be pretty similar looking I think. Are you sure the black rat cross is fertile? I'd wonder if the offspring would be anyway.

Not sure what everyone's problem is with crossing em, as has been said, corn blood has been crossed for decades to get these morphs. If it's like, boigas or localities I can understand, but corns are muddy anyway, and the species isn't exactly endangered.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

...but you wouldn't be able to call them rootbeer or creamsicle because they will have black rat in them too


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

They'd essentially be Bubblegum Rats.


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