# Picking on Cobras



## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

Im not the biggest snake guy in the world but cobras are cool, however as a few post seem to show idiots are drawn to these snakes because of their infamous looks. 

Do you think tighter restrictions on cobras and other venomous snakes that have a cool status might prevent problems with inexperienced keepers?

The rarer or less impressive venomous snakes would only interest true keepers i feel. In the lizard world the removal of iguanas from fair has helped slow the rehomeing on them so maybe banning cobras from fairs may still allow other venomous to stay?

Just a question please dont bite my head off, just wondering what you all think.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

skimsa said:


> Do you think tighter restrictions on cobras and other venomous snakes that have a cool status might prevent problems with inexperienced keepers?


I'm over in America but wasn't aware there was a problem with Cobras and inexperienced keepers. 

Anyways banning or restricting anything is never a good answer. While the look of a cobra might draw in a few it intimidates most. Cobras have the reputation of being spastic and wirer which also keeps inexperienced keepers away.

If you were looking for the snakes the majority of new keepers go after you might want to start with Gaboon's, Rhinos, and Puff adders. I see more new keepers with these species than cobras by far.

I think you post was written in haste most people fear cobras due to there spastic nature and stay away. While the Bitis appear calm and relaxed exception for the puff adder they are pissy creatures.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

i'm sorry, dcobras at fairs? Can you explain?


I think you're forgetting one vital thing, these "idiots" are not that likely to follow the current lawsI'm not sure what you could do differently?

It can be hard enough to keep venomous legally in this country. Making it harder will just push more people to do it illegally than allready do.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

I've heard of several people who have actually kept cobras ilegally (in England) because 'they are cool'. 

The post about venomous snakes being banned from Hamm has really worried me and just wondering if becoming tighter on certain species e.g cobras may save the hobby as whole.

I was only picking on cobras because i know people who have no idea want them for their looks and dont think about there behaviour.

As i said i dont know to much about venomous snakes so was just wondering, but i do know that not selling iguanas at fairs has helped them. Less inexperience keepers are keeping them because they cant buy them on impulse so may go for a more suitable animal, just wondering if the same theory would work.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

Do they sell cobras at fairs?


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

at hamm yeah


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

They no longer sell venomous at Hamm.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

yeah now they dont that was the post that made me wonder if instead of an outright ban they just looked at removing cobras gaboons as english fairs have banned iguanas to help them


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

Banning cobras and gaboons are not gonna help the hobby it's just gonna push more people underground. 

Let's look at it from a different view how many people do you know that keep cobras Illegally? 

If you know of them why have't you turned them in? 

This is the problem most people run into. It's people they know keeping them illegally and they will not turn them in. I just posted something to this effect on another forum. 

Are bites and or deaths from venomous common over there. Is it really a problem or just something you think is a problem. 

Sorry for all the questions. I'm just gathering Info since I don't know what's going on across the pond.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Kneejerk banning of things is the typically English way of dealing with a, lets face it, miniscule problem. Banning any type of animal will not stop people owning it, it will just criminalise more people. Banning guns hasn't reduced gun crime, it just stopped people owning them legally. Criminals haven't stopped using them. In the same way banning any specific type of animal will only push the sales underground and people who shouldn't have them will still get them anyway.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I would imagine that the reason people don't turn non-licensed DWA keepers in is because of the general attention it will draw to the hobby and the resulting kneejerk reaction of "well if they're that easy to get hold of, the current licensing laws aren't working, so lets ban them completely" Like was posted above, how many unlicensed people have been bitten by their snakes? I would imagine that it's kind of difficult to explain away a snakebite at A&E as "fell down the stairs" or suchlike. Questions will be asked, and there'll be little success in taking a couple of aspirin and having a lie down.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

I personally dont know them or they'd have a visit asap

A guy at work heard that i keep reps and said 'oh my cousin has 2 cobras' on further questioning found out he has no dwal.

Another, some kid i met doing my work says his dad has one in his bedroom. From what i can make you of dwal i dont think in you bedroom in a cupboard is suitable.

Heard loads of other horror storys on here and in the shops etc.

Dont thing it is too big a proplem as far as im aware nobody has been bit by a hot snake in over 100 years, however are government are knee jerk :censor: and it will take one accident to ban every hot or large snake so prevention is better than cure.

As exotic keepers we're allways underfire so need to hold our ground loosing the sale of hots at Hamm is a massive blow we need to fight against i think. This year no hots next year no large snakes year after no rare snakes till we're left with corns and beardies if we're lucky


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm basically curious to see how many people get bite by exotic venomous. Whether they are legal or not. Is it really a problem? Does it happen often? 

99% of the time there is no real reasons for bans, The only people that get affected by bans are the ones doing it legally the ones keeping them illegally will continue to do so. 

I don't think cobras are the main species kept by illegal keepers and comparing the iguana problem is completely on a different level. We have the same issues over here. 

Here is a problem I had recently.
Policing Our Hobby - Experts Forum at VenomousReptiles.org​


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

Eric said:


> I don't think cobras are the main species kept by illegal keepers and comparing the iguana problem is completely on a different level.​


I know am iggy aint gonna kill you but its an example of where the herp community removed an unsuitable animal form inexperienced members volenterily and did some good with no offical banning being needed. Now if a decent keeper wants one they can get hold of one but a beginner cant just grab one at a fair, it aint perfect but its better than before


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

if they start banning animals its a slippery slope, I for one definately dont want to see any animals banned, but I dont think it would be fair just to ban cobras and gaboons at the shows.


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## kaimarion (Dec 31, 2007)

Eric said:


> They no longer sell venomous at Hamm.


I really don't get this post , what do you class as venomous???


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

kaimarion said:


> I really don't get this post , what do you class as venomous???


animals that are hot, vipers elapids, probably some boiga species as well.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I think thus is a good topic and deserves some attention maybe throughout this debate some will come up with a better idea to solve the issues at hand. 

We pretty much have the same issues over here.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

So, they're going to stop traders at the Hamm show selling venomous snakes, but what about the traders selling the _Phoneutria, Latrodectus, Sicarius, Androctonus_ and _Leiurus_ sp out in the main hall? Last time I went to Hamm, one trader had dozens of pots of _L mactans_ on his table and when I asked him, he produced a tray of _P nigriventer_ fom a box behind the table €10 each!!! It isn't the snakes that need to be kept in check, it's the invert sales.


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## cjwales (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi all 

Have been reading this thread with interest...
I am not and have never been employed by any governmental department
Got that out of the way LOL

Is there really an underground scene with venomous snakes etc in this country ???
Personally like T's & reps that are docile...
I can see people wanting the 'buzz' of owning venomous creatures but surely the risks to you and those around you far outweigh the advantages ???

BTW have just looked at Gaboon vipers and yes I could find a home for one of those as they look beautiful LOL

Just welcome your thoughts

Cheers

Chris


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

cjwales said:


> Hi all
> 
> Have been reading this thread with interest...
> I am not and have never been employed by any governmental department
> ...


Its hard to tell cos obviously unlicensed keepers dont tend to go around admitting to this, but theres a fair few of us that are properly licensed and all legal to keep venomous snakes.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

Well it may not be the buzz of owning venomous snakes that draws people to keep them illegally. It may just be a DWA is not possible for them. The interest might be truely genuine. Alot of the time people keeping venomous illegally are looked at as morons that don't know jack.

I know over here they Ban period not offereing permits or if they do offer permits they make them so exspensive or just won't give them out. So alot of keepers just go underground also alot of them just move to different states. 

There are alot of reasons people house venomous or Dwa in you guys case illegally


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

I think its a mixture of both keeper who cant afford the lisence which is a shame but if you cant provide for the animal then you dont have it im sorry you maybe a competent keeper and it may only be a piece of paper but its the rules break em and we're all punished,

The ones who have it as a staus symbol are :censor: its like people who buy pit bulls and staffies to look hard WHY?


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## cjwales (Mar 26, 2008)

Thanks for that

What is the procedure for obtaining Licenses ????
Surely it comes down to experience/knowledge rather than just cash ???

Am guessing it is similar to getting an FAC here....

This whole area seems to be a big minefield !!! and has been said previously the outlaw owners bring reputable owners into disrepute !!

Am not lookin in any way shape or form to obtain these animals but what procedures/security/healthcare do you as legit owners have to adhere to ???

Best Regards in advance

Chris


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

The whole DWA system is poop, councils are allowed to set their own rates for licences. How can one council charge £164 a year and another £2000? In addition to which there are differing requirements over and above the basics. Some councils will grant a licence relatively smoothly, others make it so difficult and beaurocratic that it's virtually impossible to satisfy their requirements. It's no wonder that some keepers "go underground" This doesn't make them idiots, nor unable to support their animals. What this country needs is a standardised licence system possibly on a tiered basis according to the animals being kept, where every council requires the same standards and charges the same amount of money for the licence.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

skimsa said:


> I personally dont know them or they'd have a visit asap
> 
> A guy at work heard that i keep reps and said 'oh my cousin has 2 cobras' on further questioning found out he has no dwal.
> 
> ...


Well there are lots of people who will boast about it, but whether they do or not is a different matter, maybe you should ask to see it!



> Dont thing it is too big a proplem as far as im aware nobody has been bit by a hot snake in over 100 years.


Well that's not true! 



> As exotic keepers we're allways underfire so need to hold our ground loosing the sale of hots at Hamm is a massive blow we need to fight against i think. This year no hots next year no large snakes year after no rare snakes till we're left with corns and beardies if we're lucky


It's not a massive blow, surely this shows that we are responsible, and by making it harder for non licensed keepers to buy venomous snakes it's a positive step. AS a venomous keeper I don't think this is any kind of blow at all. 

Hamm doesn't allow the sale of big snakes anyway (over a certain size, not as in youngsters that will potentially become big snakes), it's all to make things SAFE. Could you imagine if a Taipan escaped at a Hamm show? THAT is far more likely to induce a 'knee jerk' reaction than a bite to a licensed keeper.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

where it says no one has been bitten in over 100 years is on captivebred website isnt it? I think it says private DWA keepers.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Again ... not true! There's been one that I know of so far this year!


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

skimsa said:


> Dont thing it is too big a proplem *as far as im aware nobody has been bit by a hot snake in over 100 years*, however are government are knee jerk :censor: and it will take one accident to ban every hot or large snake so prevention is better than cure.



There was one a couple of years ago in Bristol


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

sorry i did say as far as i was aware i didnt want to be quoted

As for it not being a big loss glidergirl its a blow because its been forced on us rather than us regulating ourselves, we all know how daft people who dont know the hobby can be about issues


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

skimsa said:


> sorry i did say as far as i was aware i didnt want to be quoted
> 
> As for it not being a big loss glidergirl its a blow because its been forced on us rather than us regulating ourselves, we all know how daft people who dont know the hobby can be about issues


 
I think you're missing the point entirely.

It'as not a blow to the responsible venomous keeper, it's ONLY a blow to the venomous traders AND the kind of people who would take advantage of being able to buy hots without a licence.

also if you don't want to be quoted on something then don't post anyhting you not sure is fact, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the DWA section.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Thank you Mason! :flrt:


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

SiUK said:


> where it says no one has been bitten in over 100 years is on captivebred website isnt it? I think it says private DWA keepers.


 
Think it means killed si


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

glidergirl said:


> Again ... not true! There's been one that I know of so far this year!


 
I do know of one person ( not personally ) that got a tag off a cobra I think while feeding he was/is employed in a shop that promotes responsible reptile keeping. 

last year or may have even been the year before..........


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Accidents happen, even the most responsible keeper can have 'a moment'.


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## Myo (Feb 14, 2008)

skimsa said:


> Im not the biggest snake guy in the world but cobras are cool, however as a few post seem to show idiots are drawn to these snakes because of their infamous looks.
> 
> Do you think tighter restrictions on cobras and other venomous snakes that have a cool status might prevent problems with inexperienced keepers?
> 
> ...


 
Is this a joke? There are only like 1000 people who own venomous at all in this country. Even if 90% of those are idiots doin it all wrong it's still not exactly what you'd call an epidemic is it? I mean, it's not like every other cage at the RSPCA rehoming centre has a cobra in it.


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

There have been a whole lot more bites than people are aware of in this country, Ive heard of at least 10 nasty bites in this country in the last couple of years. people just keep quiet about them. But they do cost hospitals an enormous amount of money when they occur.


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

woah you dwa people are as hot as your animals

The quote about nobody being bit in 100 years was taken from another reputable site. As i stated i was only aware of the quote but wasnt sure. If everything on this site has to be quote perfect it would be very empty.

Im sorry nobody else seems to think the loss of venomous sales is a blow i personally do.

Cheers for looking anyway think its time to kill the post as its been misconstrued


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

skimsa said:


> woah you dwa people are as hot as your animals
> 
> The quote about nobody being bit in 100 years was taken from another reputable site. As i stated i was only aware of the quote but wasnt sure. If everything on this site has to be quote perfect it would be very empty.
> 
> ...


We're not hot (I hate that word, it makes keepers sound so pretentious), we just corrected you! The reputable site obviously needs to update it's facts.

I really don't understand why it's such a blow, we keep venomous and we're not worried about the ban! It only seems to be those that don't keep venomous that are bothered by it!!


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

you tell em marie


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Myo said:


> Is this a joke? There are only like 1000 people who own venomous at all in this country. Even if 90% of those are idiots doin it all wrong it's still not exactly what you'd call an epidemic is it? I mean, it's not like every other cage at the RSPCA rehoming centre has a cobra in it.


 
I'd say there are many more keepers of DWA animals than you think. There are probably close to or more than 1000 keeping illegally at any given time.

And Skimsa, nobody is having a go, but time and time again it needs to be pointed out that ensuring correct information is posted is more important here than in any other section of this site.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

skimsa said:


> As i said i dont know to much about venomous snakes so was just wondering, but i do know that not selling iguanas at fairs has helped them. Less inexperience keepers are keeping them because they cant buy them on impulse so may go for a more suitable animal, just wondering if the same theory would work.


Are you aware that, if someone took their own captive bred iguanas to a UK breeders' meeting there wouldn't be any problem selling them legally? 

The "fairs" that have a legal ban on iguanas (and other live animals) are _funfairs_ banning them as _prizes_. And since I've never seen a cobra for sale at a funfair... the law there isn't exactly applicable. The shows and breeders meetings in the UK don't allow the sale of DWA animals (from what I've experienced anyway) to begin with.

Banning cobras in private ownership would just make cobra owners go underground (you've just made legit owners into criminals same as the non-licence-holders) ... but you wouldn't stop the people who wanted one and didn't feel like jumping through the legal hoops from getting them.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Are you aware that, if someone took their own captive bred iguanas to a UK breeders' meeting there wouldn't be any problem selling them legally?
> 
> The "fairs" that have a legal ban on iguanas (and other live animals) are _funfairs_ banning them as _prizes_. And since I've never seen a cobra for sale at a funfair... the law there isn't exactly applicable. The shows and breeders meetings in the UK don't allow the sale of DWA animals (from what I've experienced anyway) to begin with.
> 
> Banning cobras in private ownership would just make cobra owners go underground (you've just made legit owners into criminals same as the non-licence-holders) ... but you wouldn't stop the people who wanted one and didn't feel like jumping through the legal hoops from getting them.


 
Just so you/the forum know..

I could sell WC or CF iggies at most of the UK shows as long as I stated their origin honestly.

Definately at the IHS shows, i've not checked the rules for the others throughly yes.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> *The reputable site obviously needs to update it's facts.*


 
NO, it just needs to be correctly quoted :whistling2:

I stated that there has not been any DEATHS from non native venomous reptiles in over a 100 years.

Also that no member of the public has been attacked by a privately kept DWA animal.

Link to the page is here DWA Info, Dangerous Wild Animals Act, Venomous Reptiles~ CaptiveBred.co.uk


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Lol! Fair enough Scott


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