# When to handle APH Advice needed.



## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Im a newbee to the APH world, and am unsure when i should be handling them. I have two babies in the shop, that are handled for 1-2 hrs each per day. They are usually awake when i open up, so i let them play for a while and then handle them. One is beautifully tame, the other one is very huffy for a minute or two, then calms down fine.

Fell in love with these two boys, so decided to get myself an adult female whom arrived yesterday. This one is my personal pet that i keep at home. May be have a go at breeding in the future, (when iv got used to keeping them).

She only came yesterday at around 11.30 and was very huffy. I popped her straight in to the viv in her sleeping box and left her alone. (She had just travelled from scotland with SW Couriers!)

By 9pm she still hadn't even peeked out of her box. I was quite worried so I lifted the box out of the viv and gently lifted the fleece out, with her in it, and placed her on my lap. After a few mins, she unballed and started sniffing around. She ate a couple of cat biscuits out of my hand, and then started biting my jeans. She seemed to be getting very aggressive.

I popped her back in the viv, and she sniffed around before going in to her sleep box again. Didn't see her out again before i went to bed, and she was still sleeping this morn. I know to keep them tame you should handle daily, however im unsure whether i should be waking them up to handle?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. As i said im new to this and would greatly value the thoughts of the more experienced.

Really want to get this girl to relax with me, but i don't want to make things worse.:blush:


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

Firstly i would give her a couple of days to settle in, only being disturbed to clean up, and to freshen food and water, then i would (if not already awake), wake up around 8-9pm, let her eat have a run and a poo then get her out for a couple of hours! also try not to keep her in a quiet room, the normal daily sounds will acustom her to noise and then she wont ball at the slightest sound when out  she was probly biting your jeans if they smelt nice, from what i know they dont bite out of aggression, they ball and huff for that. 
And one more thing pictures please xx :flrt:

Also join Pygmy hog forum (google it) its full of fab people and fab advice xx


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## dexnos (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi ya :2thumb:

To be honest a temping as it is try not to desturb her until this evening to allow her to rest after her Journey. 

Firstly how old is your little Girl? This is quite important 

Do u have any live mealworms? If you place them in the flat of your open palm and allow her to eat from your hand it may help to strengthen your bond. 

Were an old t'shirt for a day and place it in her bed to allow her to get used to your smells and begin to recognise u when u get her out.

Try not to change your perfumes or deodrants etc to often as again this will confuse your hedgie and may result in lack of trust and bonding.

You mentioned u haver 2 boys in the shop re they in seperate cages.

Pop over to pygmyhogs.co.uk to gain loads of usefull into etc

: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:: victory:


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

Cheers Sophie,
I figured she would need time to settle. Got the better of me last night though. Needed to check she was alive. lol
You have put my mind at rest now. Have two noisy children, so its not that quiet. Generally theres no one in in the daytime though. Will get my hubby to get the camera out in the next few days.
As for the jeans, i thought as much! Have lots of animal smells on me. Il wear my pyjamas next time.!!!

Thanks very much Shelley



sophs87 said:


> Firstly i would give her a couple of days to settle in, only being disturbed to clean up, and to freshen food and water, then i would (if not already awake), wake up around 8-9pm, let her eat have a run and a poo then get her out for a couple of hours! also try not to keep her in a quiet room, the normal daily sounds will acustom her to noise and then she wont ball at the slightest sound when out  she was probly biting your jeans if they smelt nice, from what i know they dont bite out of aggression, they ball and huff for that.
> And one more thing pictures please xx :flrt:
> 
> Also join Pygmy hog forum (google it) its full of fab people and fab advice xx


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi dexnos

Wasn't so much i was tempted, more i was worried to death. Was thinking allsorts. I will definitely leave her be this eve.
She is 15mths old (i think). She has had one litter with her previous owner approx 3 mths ago.
Mealworms are no probs. Have a reptile shop so always stock them. Will give it a try. As for the old t-shirt. Thats something i would never of thought of.

Yeah the two boys are seperated. Had a customer who breeds them. She had two boys left, and was desperate for homes for them as she was going on holiday. I took on the two with 1 complete setup. They were 10wks when i got them, so i thought it best to seperate straight away. They are the reason i got the female. Have two great homes lined up for the boys already! 

Thanks for your advice. Will get round to joining the other forum in the next couple of days. Cheers Shelley


dexnos said:


> Hi ya :2thumb:
> 
> To be honest a temping as it is try not to desturb her until this evening to allow her to rest after her Journey.
> 
> ...


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## EVIEMAY (Mar 6, 2008)

Welcome to the forum - I am relatively new to APH keeping myself but I am so glad I have one - he is an absolute joy.

He did take a while to settle in and after 4 months he still can be huffy at times.

We let him settle for a day after the courier brought him and then got him out every night for at least 2-3 hours in which time we hand fed mealworms. She needs to get used to your smell.

It must be fatal working in a pet shop - I am sure I would bring my work home with me !!!!!!!


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

reptileexpress said:


> Hi dexnos
> 
> Wasn't so much i was tempted, more i was worried to death. Was thinking allsorts. I will definitely leave her be this eve.
> *She is 15mths old (i think). She has had one litter with her previous owner approx 3 mths ago.*
> ...


*Im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but you cannot breed from her over a year old, its the same with guinea pigs!! So please dont breed her it will wont be a happy ending  You will find out more by reading up on pygmy hogs forum xx*

You will be fine, dont worry they will bond when their ready and rely heavily on sence of smell, as mentioned before put something with your smell in with her and wash your hands after feeding her mealies ect or she will think your finger is a tasty morsell :lol2:


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

They are wonderful little things. Am completely confident with the baby boys. Luckily they always seem to be awake up until dinner time, so i do majority of my handling then. 
Its the adult female that bothers me. She never seems to be awake. Its me being paranoid though. She's only been here after 30hrs so far so she's bound to need time to settle in. Just like to reassure myself that im doing things right. Picked up some great bonding tips too.

Yes it is fatal running a shop. I have officially banned myself from letting any more reps from coming in my house. Not suprising that the majority of animals in my shop are "not for sale" Lol.. Too be honest its the sale of equipment and food, and giving advice in my shop. I don't push animal sales.


EVIEMAY said:


> Welcome to the forum - I am relatively new to APH keeping myself but I am so glad I have one - he is an absolute joy.
> 
> He did take a while to settle in and after 4 months he still can be huffy at times.
> 
> ...


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi soph,
Thanks again for your advice. Had not heard about the over 12mths problems with breeding. Have just had a quick peek on the Pygmy hedgehog forums. From what i can understand, first time mums bred over a year old can have problems including pelvic bones fusing. If they have been bred before the age of 1 year, its ok to breed them after. I was actually told by a breeder that the best time to breed for the first time is between 8 and 11mths. I am curious to find out what is the max age for breeding. Im sure i was told 2-3 years, but i can't remember where i heard it. Wouldn't be the end of the world if i couldn't breed anyway. Its just something i would like to experience. Done it with Lizards, snakes etc If i did breed, all the babies would be homed with my friends and families. Everyone is in love with them. It would be her last litter anyway as i don't believe in breeding an animal over and over again. 2-3 lots of babies with ANY animal is more than enough in my opinion.
:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


sophs87 said:


> *Im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but you cannot breed from her over a year old, its the same with guinea pigs!! So please dont breed her it will wont be a happy ending  You will find out more by reading up on pygmy hogs forum xx*
> 
> You will be fine, dont worry they will bond when their ready and rely heavily on sence of smell, as mentioned before put something with your smell in with her and wash your hands after feeding her mealies ect or she will think your finger is a tasty morsell :lol2:


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

yeah sophs is right!! Females should be minimum 6 months old and under a year old for first breeding - most ideal around the 8 months by which time their bodies are mature enough to deal with pregnancy and giving birth, females after a year old can be bred again providing you know for definate that they have had a previous litter - its too unsafe to risk otherwise - retirement age is around 2 1/2 - 3 years old - any hog should only be bred if it is in optimum health, have a good temprament (not huffy or bitey) and in a good weight range - personally I would like any female I bred to be over 300g. Also you need to be sure your not inbreeding - the gene pool in the UK is rather small so you need well lined hogs so you can compare the lineage to make sure there arent any clashes - they must be at least 3 generations apart from any similarities to ensure responsible and ethical breeding practises. There should be 6 months between matings so ensure health of themum and her ability to produce healthy hoglets. There is also a lot of other do's and dont's - all on the pgmy forum - about handling mum and babies and removing wheels etc etc - overly stressed females are prone to destroying litters or abandoning them and hand rearing is very unsuccessful - have a read through the breeding section on the hog forum - its full of very useful info


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

Thanks animal addict. Seen your reply on the hog forum as well. Thats cleared that one up then. Well as i said, breeding was not the reason i bought her, just may be something i consider in the future. Too be honest, it will be at least 6 months before i even think about putting her to a male. I know her last litter were ok as iv seen pics of her babies. Lineage will be considered very carefully *IF* i do go down the breeding avenue. 
Well we will have to discover more about the females attitude first anyway. Im a very patient person so can't see to many problems getting her to relax around me. Obviously will be keeping a close eye on her feeding habits as well as her weight.
Thanks again to everyone for the sound advice. Will be absorbing as much info as i can of the hoggy forumQUOTE=animal addict;4670120]yeah sophs is right!! Females should be minimum 6 months old and under a year old for first breeding - most ideal around the 8 months by which time their bodies are mature enough to deal with pregnancy and giving birth, females after a year old can be bred again providing you know for definate that they have had a previous litter - its too unsafe to risk otherwise - retirement age is around 2 1/2 - 3 years old - any hog should only be bred if it is in optimum health, have a good temprament (not huffy or bitey) and in a good weight range - personally I would like any female I bred to be over 300g. Also you need to be sure your not inbreeding - the gene pool in the UK is rather small so you need well lined hogs so you can compare the lineage to make sure there arent any clashes - they must be at least 3 generations apart from any similarities to ensure responsible and ethical breeding practises. There should be 6 months between matings so ensure health of themum and her ability to produce healthy hoglets. There is also a lot of other do's and dont's - all on the pgmy forum - about handling mum and babies and removing wheels etc etc - overly stressed females are prone to destroying litters or abandoning them and hand rearing is very unsuccessful - have a read through the breeding section on the hog forum - its full of very useful info[/QUOTE]


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

6 months sounds like a good plan - so do we get to see her then


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

sophs87 said:


> *Im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but you cannot breed from her over a year old, its the same with guinea pigs!! So please dont breed her it will wont be a happy ending  You will find out more by reading up on pygmy hogs forum xx*



Guinea Pigs can be bred over a year old but shouldn't have the first litter over a year old.


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

I havn't seen her properly yet :lol2:
Her name is coco. Am going to leave her be tonight, and handle tomorrow. Will bring some mealies home and have a bribing, sorry bonding session and see if she comes out of herself. Will make sure hubbys got the camera at the ready. Will take some pics of the two boys at the shop tomorrow as well. Trotter is adorable. Harvey takes a while to chill down though. Should hopefully be able to put them up here tomorrow night.


animal addict said:


> 6 months sounds like a good plan - so do we get to see her then


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

yayyy - look forward 

OOPS - sorry - I made a really bad typo error earlier - I said I wouldnt like to breed a hedgie over 300g it should read - wouldnt like to breed UNDER 300g - eek so sorry !!!!!!!!!!


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok i was nearly right haha. i only know a little bit because i was never going to breed so didnt need to, but was sure i read something about it. :2thumb:

Looking foward to piccys too :mf_dribble:


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## quilson_mc_spike (Dec 27, 2008)

animal addict said:


> Also you need to be sure your not inbreeding - the gene pool in the UK is rather small so you need well lined hogs so you can compare the lineage to make sure there arent any clashes - they must be at least 3 generations apart from any similarities to ensure responsible and ethical breeding practises. There should be 6 months between matings so ensure health of the mum and her ability to produce healthy hoglets


i have no line age for my hogs and they bred perfect healthy babies that weren't inbred and have great personalities and the mother was absolutely perfect apart from one of the babies being eaten! and i even looked in the nest on their first day ! (only because i thought it was treacle crying) she was extremely late x


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

no offence Connor but you really cannot say that there is no generation linkage for definate unless one was one of the new imports that is around lately - for example - I have 4 males - EVERY one of them has been bought from different people at different times from different locations and are all different ages - IF I didnt know otherwise I could proclaim to say 'oh they definately can be related' in actual fact I can link EVERY one of my males at some level - whether it be GG grandparent or GGG grandparent they have links - therefore I personally wouldnt take the risk because that is actually quite scary!!! GGG grandparent is rather distant but TBH I still wouldnt risk it!! Again, no offence intended - you dont know your hogs parentage neither are yours old enough to know that there wont be complications later on in life - lots of conditions in APH show themselves at 18months-2 years and older and who knows regarding life spans being affected but you definately cannot guaranteed they are not inbred because you just dont know - I'm not disputing that they have good personalities neither


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

edit button disappeared - should read 'cant not can' re related - I need to proof read more!!!


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## Sharpy6272 (May 14, 2008)

animal addict said:


> no offence Connor but you really cannot say that there is no generation linkage for definate unless one was one of the new imports that is around lately - for example - I have 4 males - EVERY one of them has been bought from different people at different times from different locations and are all different ages - IF I didnt know otherwise I could proclaim to say 'oh they definately can be related' in actual fact I can link EVERY one of my males at some level - whether it be GG grandparent or GGG grandparent they have links - therefore I personally wouldnt take the risk because that is actually quite scary!!! GGG grandparent is rather distant but TBH I still wouldnt risk it!! Again, no offence intended - you dont know your hogs parentage neither are yours old enough to know that there wont be complications later on in life - lots of conditions in APH show themselves at 18months-2 years and older and who knows regarding life spans being affected but you definately cannot guaranteed they are not inbred because you just dont know - I'm not disputing that they have good personalities neither


I thought this article explained the facts of in breeding and line breeding very well: Hedgehog World - A community for African Pygmy Hedgehog Owners and Breeders - Inbreeding: History, Techniques, and Motivations


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

Line breeding is a useful tool if done correctly but like it says you need exceptional animals to start off with - I dont think in-breeding should be encouraged in any way epecially when it can be avoided.

Another link from the same site:
http://www.hedgehogworld.com/content/view/101/40/


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

Well i got her out last night. Had to wake her as she was still in her bed. She unballed and walked over to a pile of biscuits for a nibble. Let her wander about for 10 mins and then picked her up and sat her on my lap. After a minute or so huffing, she walked across my lap to my husbands, and starting biting at the underarm of his shirt. She was putting alot of effort in to it. She then annoited. She wandered back over to me, and sniffed my hand before having a nibble on me.

My 9 year old daughter then asked for a hold. She is very confident! Coco seemed to like jazz my daughter, and was letting her pick her up and allsorts. She was very active on her. No huffing at all. However jasmin did get a nibble before handing her back to me.

What really is worrying me is that to my knowledge she is not coming out of her bed at all. Iv left biscuit trails on the floor to see if anything has moved in the morning. Nothings going. The wheel does not look dirty, and she only seems to be pooing when i wake her up.

Iv come to the conclusion that she doesn't like me very much. She's never as huffy with anyone else as she is with me. Im convinced its my fault, i am nervy since the first bite i had off her. She really bit down through my jeans. Had a lovely mark for a few days. 

I want to make this hedgehog at ease. Do adults normally take a while to settle in? Is it normal for them to not come out of their bed for a few days?


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

Some pics as promised!!
Will get the boys up later. Was told she was a choc chip, but paperwork says apricot???? Opinions welcomed


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

ahhhhhhhhh she's lovely - love the annointing piccie. She far far too dark to be an apricot lol - just contact the registry send in a piccie and ask them to confirm her colour and ask them to change her registry for you. 

sounds like she is starting to settle in though - just keep going with her lots of handling and bribery etc, try a little dish with a few mealies left in her cage it may entice her out - perhaps she is just a bit shy at the moment what with all the different smells and noises - is she eating any biscuits?

She may sence your unease - i know this is easier said than done - but try not to handle her thinking she is going to bite you and make sure your hands are unscented etc and if she does bite dont put her down nor back in her cage or it will become a behaviour because she thinks she will be able to bite you and she will get what she wants - shes probably stressed and scared re: the biting and it should get less once she has fully settled in and feels safe with you guys - always discourage any licking as it usually leads to a bite and positive rewards by hand feeding mealies (palm flat like you feed a horse so you dont get your fingers munched) will help her realise that your a nice big thing to interact with and not so scary after all - can you ask her previous owner if she was prone to nipping or anything - do you know if she's ever bitten before??


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

All i was told is she "WILL" bite when she has got babies in with her. (Talking about if i wanted to breed in the future). Don't want to pester her as i asked loads of q's before the purchase. Will send her a quick pm though.

Right so don't allow the licking!! 
I know its silly being worried about the biting. Honestly though she took a fair bite on my leg. It bloody hurt!!! I do believe that im freaking her out more than the other way round though. Funny how i can confidently deal with aggressive iguanas and snakes but apprehensive of a little hedgehog.

Think im going to let my hubby and daughter do most of the handling for a week or so. They have more confidence with her than me, and after a week she will probably be more confident in her self anyway. Think im just making her worse.

There doesn't seem to be any biscuits dissapearing over night at all, however when i wake her, i put a couple of bics by her nose and she eats them. Think im going to start counting the biscuits before i go to bed. Will know for sure then

Will try leaving mealies in there see if that works.

Thanks again for all the advice.


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## EVIEMAY (Mar 6, 2008)

My little one is very fussy with food - I was worried as he would eat Mealies but not much else - he would have a few biscuits.

I perservered with the boiled mince and carrots and low and behold after many attempts he has finally started eating it.

Mine has never bitten me but he does like my OH armpit too !!!

She does look lovely - dont give up she will come round and then you will be fighting over who is going to have her on their knee !!!!


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

also its not silly to be afraid of the biting - they do blinking hurt!!!! and sometimes its so fast and without warning too and the area stays sore for a day or two afterwards and they always manage to get a sensitive area :lol2: as you cant tell I have been bitten loads and loads - my fault for taking a couple of rehomers - I really dont like being bitten lol, I used to be wary of handling but now its a grin and bear it and OW :censor: reaction now - they usually come round with time though which is something especially when they learn the biting doesnt get them what they want!!


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## pjlucy (Dec 7, 2007)

Hi I have left you a message regarding Coco( previously MIlly). 

To answer about the colour thing, when I got her last year she was sold to me as an Apricot, Having no clue about colours I assumed the breeder was right.

Spent alot of time of Pygmy Hog Forum, to discover she was more choc chip, going by the colour and ratios etc from discriptions.

Unfortunatley I had all ready registered her as an Apricot, and completely forgot to change it.

Shelley hopefully my PM will put you at ease.

She can be huffy and she anoints alot, most clothing and socks seem to set her off.

Also shes over a year old and i got her as a 7 week baby, she had only ever known I house, give her time and she will come around.

Loving the pictures she looks happy in them


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

I see you found it then. Lol Just told you about this thread in a PM.

Thanks for the advice. Will stick with her. Its a case of us all getting used to each other. Thanks for the colour explanation. Forgot about that. Will get that sorted on her reg.

Im just a worrier. Don't want to make her worse, want to do what i can to help. The advice i have received on here is fab

Cheers all:2thumb:


pjlucy said:


> Hi I have left you a message regarding Coco( previously MIlly).
> 
> To answer about the colour thing, when I got her last year she was sold to me as an Apricot, Having no clue about colours I assumed the breeder was right.
> 
> ...


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## dexnos (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi ya Ditto to everything AA has said . PLEASE dint think she doesn't like you etc. The more confident you become with her the more relaxed she will be with you :2thumb:

She sounds as though she is going to come around if she happy to walk over you etc : victory:. 

The anointing is due to lots of new smells :mf_dribble:She has a lotto take in .

Short , frequent handling sessions would be good for both u and Co Co

If your daughter and hubby are a little more confident at this stage and she is not struggling to get away from you they should probably continue to do as they are doing :2thumb:

As AA has said whatever u do don't withdraw or out her away once u have been bitten or she will continue to use this method as letting u know she want s to get down an din all fairness she Will be using it as away of communicating with you rather than aggression.

With re: the registry , don't forget to let them know you are the new owner, you will hav eher reg number on her certificate. Also change the colour at the same time. They will email u a new certificate


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## reptileexpress (Feb 22, 2008)

dexnos said:


> Hi ya Ditto to everything AA has said . PLEASE dint think she doesn't like you etc. The more confident you become with her the more relaxed she will be with you :2thumb:
> 
> She sounds as though she is going to come around if she happy to walk over you etc : victory:.
> 
> ...


Sorted the certificates now. Yes i think she'l calm down over time. Short bursts of handling is not a problem. Previous owner suggested giving her a bath, so will give that a try later. Im making sure she eats when i wake her up. Hoping that she'll venture out of her bed more through the night soon as well. Will try the blowing technique next time she starts licking. 

Im forever giving out advice about snakes biting, and owners need to show the snakes that they are the boss by not letting them scare you. Really have gotta practise my own advice with the hedgehogs.:lol2:

Well i certainly wont be giving up with her. Im not a person that gives up easily. Once we stop the biting, im sure my confidence will come flooding back. Just takes time doesn't it?

All these tips are wonderful though!!!!
Keep em coming: victory:


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