# Be honest: Do you think it is cruel to feed live mice to large tarantulas?



## herps06 (Jan 5, 2009)

Like the title says, do you? In my opinion, mice aren't much good for anything else other than being eaten. I know, I know; everything has got a right to live. Well..... that's correct but predators have a right to eat:lol2: So, what do you guys think? P.S. I am posting this because I'm tired of seeing owners on youtube being targeted for live-feeding. If people are sensitive about it... don't watch the thing at the first place!?!?


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

In one word..

Yes

Most of the time you see a cleanish/fast kill from one of the youtube vid's of live feeding a mouse to a spider the spider has nailed it though the skull, otherwise the clip may end before the mouse looks as if it's gone, im almost certain that the spider does not always choose to waste much if any of it's venom unless it's having hard time overpowering the prey item.

Note: I'v raised mice as snake food for 15 years plus so this is not a "bunny hugger" view point : victory:


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

I don't watch, and I think it's cruel and unnecessary.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

*mice as live prey*

i think it IS cruel, as the mouse dies a slow, agonising death in the fangs of a tarantula. it is also unnecessary, as they will eat insects. it is also illegal- ditto feeding live mice to snakes.


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

I think it's *cruel* and causes *unnecessary* suffering to the victim!!


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I dont like it because I think it's unneccessary. I kept large pythons in the past and would never feed live prey to them. I feel that there's something incredibly voyeuristic about feeding your animals and watching something suffer just for my amusement is not really fair, even when I watch my spiders eat an invertibrate, I kinda feel guilty (but fascinated at the same time.)

Still, all these people who complain on the internet are like those people who complain when someone says the F word on TV... If you dont like it ... DONT WATCH! If you keep complaining or crying outrage every time you see something you dont like, it just fuels the fire for people to become intrigued by it... Like banning an offensive record from the airwaves then seeing it get to number 1 in next weeks charts.


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## Pinkytoes (Jun 25, 2009)

Completely cruel and needless, I think the keepers gets more pleasure from it than the animal does.
My snake gets fed "humanely dispatched" mice if live feeding of vertibrates was a necessity I wouldn't keep either.
And regardless of what I have been told there is NO justifiable reason or need to feed live


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

If it was a case of near instant death I wouldn't have a problem with it but often isn't . I also can't see the point in creating unnecessary risk to your pet but that's a different issue .


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

I think it is wrong: there are humane ways of killing mice for food, tarantulas are not a humane method.

There is no good reason for it, and mice are living self aware creatures: probably more so than a tarantula.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Our AF's get fed mouse/rat pups just before being intro'd with males BUT the mice/rat pups are killed humanely just before being fed.

Therefore they are still kicking from the lasting nerve reflexes so trigger the feeding responses in the T's but are dead. There is no need for livefeeding T's, if you cant bring yourself to kill the mice/rat pups humanely then dont feed them to your T's.


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## Pinkytoes (Jun 25, 2009)

I think any responsible T or snake keeper recoils in horror at live feeding anyway.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

why would anyone even contemplate this??? Its seriously amoral.

Anyones whose ever seen a snake be reduced to having to live-feed will know how brutally a scared mouse can fight and struggle.

The T would almost certainly be damaged if nothing else...


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Muze said:


> Our AF's get fed mouse/rat pups just before being intro'd with males BUT the mice/rat pups are killed humanely just before being fed.
> 
> Therefore they are still kicking from the lasting nerve reflexes so trigger the feeding responses in the T's but are dead. There is no need for livefeeding T's, *if you cant bring yourself to kill* the mice/rat pups humanely then dont feed them to your T's.


You could say the same for meat eaters, but that's another story... 

I wouldn't, and couldn't, completely pointless - makes me very angry to think of it. All the above are correct, it's more for the enjoyment of the feeder watching.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

forever_20one said:


> You could say the same for meat eaters, but that's another story...
> 
> I wouldn't, and couldn't, completely pointless - makes me very angry to think of it. All the above are correct, it's more for the enjoyment of the feeder watching.



Having been brought up in deepest darkest Cornwall and been around farming and hunting and having done so myself for many years i have no problems with killing animals for food and do so regularly.

I personally think if you cant kill it you shouldnt eat it...


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## herps06 (Jan 5, 2009)

This is turning out to be an interesting thread. I have never fed any mammal to any of my ts whatsoever and I don't think I ever will. I only feed my snakes mice and rats and I only ever feed live if they refuse frozen or fresh-killed (HUMANELY-killed). I would not call feeding ts mice cruel, but I would call it unnecessary.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Because it causes unnecessary pain, stress and fear to the mouse, THAT makes it cruel.

If it was necessary to cause stress/pain/fear for the greater good (of the eater in this case rather than the eaten) then that's one thing - but if it's done without thought to reducing the pain, stress or fear - or done unnecessarily - then that's what cruelty actually is.


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## Simon M (Oct 9, 2008)

I personally would not feed live, but for selfish reasons - I would not want to put any of my T's at risk from the mice fighting back (despite how naturalistic this is in the wild, all small rodents are prey).
I have frozen mice anyway, for my Reps/Corns. So much easier.

Si


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## atum (Jun 1, 2009)

I believe it's cruel and unnecessary, not to mention putting your T at risk. 

That's my opinion, and I will always stick to that no matter what people say to convince me otherwise.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Im not overly bothered either way, but i wouldnt ever feed a mouse to any of my tarantulas because it is linked with dry molts where they have eaten to much calcium so i wouldnt risk it.

It is unnecessary though.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

What i dont understand though is this whole crap about not feeding mammals to an invert. It stinks of hypocrisy, how can people say you shouldnt feed a live mammal but you can feed live inverts?? Thats just bunny hugging in my opinion.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Not so much bunny hugging.

An invertebrate does not have the same sort of nervous system as a mammal, and they've already shown that although inverts may well feel some sort of pain sense, it is not the same as a vertebrate's. Experiments show that although vertebrates will "pain guard" (for example, not putting weight on an injured limb) invertebrates do not.


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## ShouldIBeDamned (Aug 24, 2008)

I don't like watching nature programs where animals get caught and eaten, but that's nature and it has to happen, but at least there is always the chance that the prey will get away and live to see another day.

I don't like the idea of feeding live to any captive animal as the end result is always going to be death (if it goes wrong your pet!) and there is absolutely no chance that the prey will ever escape. If that is the case then why not feed pre-killed? It reduces stress to both creatures and gets the job done in a far more humane way. 

As for the whole 'if you can kill it you can eat it' thing, I would much prefer to have mine pre-killed for me, so who knows, would a snake have the same opinion, and do they ever eat mammals they find already dead in the wild?

Besides I don't know many people who have room in their homes for cows and chickens :lol2:


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)

Micky doesn't approve...


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

DannyB said:


> Im not overly bothered either way, but i wouldnt ever feed a mouse to any of my tarantulas because it is linked with dry molts where they have eaten to much calcium so i wouldnt risk it.


Never found it to be a problem tbh, infact it provides our large AFs with a decent meal before being mated.


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

If i had to feed them to my spiders for the sake of them then i would. I prefer my spiders to rodents


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

ShouldIBeDamned said:


> I don't like watching nature programs where animals get caught and eaten, but that's nature and it has to happen, but at least there is always the chance that the prey will get away and live to see another day.
> 
> I don't like the idea of feeding live to any captive animal as the end result is always going to be death (if it goes wrong your pet!) and there is absolutely no chance that the prey will ever escape. If that is the case then why not feed pre-killed? It reduces stress to both creatures and gets the job done in a far more humane way.
> 
> ...


On the contrary..many "townies" are now keeping chickens. Its supposed to be the latest thing to have your own little flock of chickens and produce your own eggs and meat as its far more humane than battery farming

Ive kept quail and chicken here for food.


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## atum (Jun 1, 2009)

Jamie said:


> Micky doesn't approve...
> 
> image


Bet this whole discussion is really playing on his mind... as he's doing laps of a blondi enclosure.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Muze said:


> Having been brought up in deepest darkest Cornwall and been around farming and hunting and having done so myself for many years i have no problems with killing animals for food and do so regularly.
> 
> *I personally think if you cant kill it you shouldnt eat it...*


Mucho love for you :2thumb:



DannyB said:


> What i dont understand though is this whole crap about not feeding mammals to an invert. It stinks of hypocrisy, how can people say you shouldnt feed a live mammal but you can feed live inverts?? Thats just bunny hugging in my opinion.


What a load of codswallop. Research some biology manuals first : victory: 



Ssthisto said:


> Not so much bunny hugging.
> 
> *An invertebrate does not have the same sort of nervous system as a mammal*, and they've already shown that although inverts may well feel some sort of pain sense, *it is not the same as a vertebrate's*. Experiments show that although vertebrates will "pain guard" (for example, not putting weight on an injured limb) invertebrates do not.


Personal opinion is that inverts have a completely different nervous system to vertabrates - if I didn't believe this, I could in no way feed any of my spiders live food. Live mice is a completely different issue to crickets or locusts.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

forever_20one said:


> What a load of codswallop. Research some biology manuals first : victory:



In what respect? How can you draw the line between what can be fed alive and what cant?


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Not so much bunny hugging.
> 
> An invertebrate does not have the same sort of nervous system as a mammal, and they've already shown that although inverts may well feel some sort of pain sense, it is not the same as a vertebrate's. Experiments show that although vertebrates will "pain guard" (for example, not putting weight on an injured limb) invertebrates do not.



Interesting. But there is still the issue of drawing the line under what can and cant be fed alive. You say yourself that inverts do have some sort of pain sense, so why then say they can be fed alive and vertebrates cant?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

DannyB said:


> In what respect? How can you draw the line between what can be fed alive and what cant?


Easily...if you start saying that everything has the same feelings or awareness then we get feeder insects taken off the market and subjected to the same cruelty laws as mice and rats etc.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Muze said:


> Easily...if you start saying that everything has the same feelings or awareness then we get feeder insects taken off the market and subjected to the same cruelty laws as mice and rats etc.



Thats pretty selfish:lol2:

Im not saying everything has the same feelings and senses, but if it did, which would be the protected one, the furry, cuddly cute one or the hard, weird looking one?


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

DannyB said:


> In what respect? How can you draw the line between what can be fed alive and what cant?


 
It's Science - and personal belief on my part.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

DannyB said:


> Thats pretty selfish:lol2:
> 
> Im not saying everything has the same feelings and senses, but if it did, which would be the protected one, the furry, cuddly cute one or the hard, weird looking one?


Its not being selfish...its fact, science tells us that inverts dont feel pain in the same way.



forever_20one said:


> It's Science - and personal belief on my part.


This...


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

DannyB said:


> Thats pretty selfish:lol2:
> 
> Im not saying everything has the same feelings and senses, but if it did, which would be the protected one, the furry, cuddly cute one or the hard, weird looking one?


I should hope both! But with the country the way it is, I doubt it.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Muze said:


> Its not being selfish...its fact, science tells us that inverts dont feel pain in the same way.
> 
> 
> 
> This...


So they dont feel pain in the same way? They still feel pain, even if its in a different way, so how can you say that?? There is no logic behind the law that a vertebrate cannot be fed to an invertebrate.


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## salukisue (Feb 3, 2010)

*salukisue*

Apart from being totally unneccesary and cruel there is always the chance of the prey harming the predator with a nip :whip:


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

forever_20one said:


> I should hope both! But with the country the way it is, I doubt it.



Your certainly not wrong


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

I'd rather a mouse in my spiders mouths than running around my home


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## waynegarland (Feb 1, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> i think it IS cruel, as the mouse dies a slow, agonising death in the fangs of a tarantula. it is also unnecessary, as they will eat insects. it is also illegal- ditto feeding live mice to snakes.


I feed my T Blondis the odd mouse or chick but there dead of course. The need for feeding live mice to spiders is needless as they do perfectly fine on an insect diet. I keep snakes also which are all fed on thawed out rodents but if one snake stopped eating I would consider live as it's 100% legal to feed live mice to snakes. 

Read this link.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html#post1000620


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

DannyB said:


> So they dont feel pain in the same way? They still feel pain, even if its in a different way, so how can you say that?? There is no logic behind the law that a vertebrate cannot be fed to an invertebrate.


I certainly agree to some extent, but after looking into this and studing Science for several years I have to believe they can't Feel, or be afraid. They just have instincts to get away, to eat, to breed.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

DannyB said:


> So they dont feel pain in the same way? They still feel pain, even if its in a different way, so how can you say that?? There is no logic behind the law that a vertebrate cannot be fed to an invertebrate.


This has all been done to death several times over so im not gonna continue....again :whistling2:



_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> I'd rather a mouse in my spiders mouths than running around my home


You big girls blouse! LMAO :lol2:


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

I had a house infested with them once!!! They were evil! I could hear them when i tried to go sleep, i had visions of myself waking up and finding one hanging off my lip!!!


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

forever_20one said:


> I certainly agree to some extent, but after looking into this and studing Science for several years I have to believe they can't Feel, or be afraid. They just have instincts to get away, to eat, to breed.



Well you have clearly looked into it more then me, so if you say there is research into it and these are the current findings then i will have to bow to your superior knowledge:notworthy:


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## ShouldIBeDamned (Aug 24, 2008)

Muze said:


> On the contrary..many "townies" are now keeping chickens. Its supposed to be the latest thing to have your own little flock of chickens and produce your own eggs and meat as its far more humane than battery farming
> 
> Ive kept quail and chicken here for food.


when you say townies do you mean chavs or people that just live in the town? coz that just just put an image in my head of chavs keeping chickens :gasp:

I'm eat VERY little meat anyway, i.e. once every few months when I crack from eating veggie food


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

DannyB said:


> Well you have clearly looked into it more then me, so if you say there is research into it and these are the current findings then i will have to bow to your superior knowledge:notworthy:


Oh my... and personal opinion, as well as fingers crossed faith don't forget


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

forever_20one said:


> Oh my... and personal opinion, as well as fingers crossed faith don't forget


Dont get use to it, it doesnt happen very often:whip:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

ShouldIBeDamned said:


> when you say townies do you mean chavs or people that just live in the town? coz that just just put an image in my head of chavs keeping chickens :gasp:
> 
> I'm eat VERY little meat anyway, i.e. once every few months when I crack from eating veggie food


:lol2: chavs wif chickens!

nah i meant people who live in towns...lol


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## ShouldIBeDamned (Aug 24, 2008)

Muze said:


> :lol2: chavs wif chickens!
> 
> nah i meant people who live in towns...lol


phew, coz chavs with chickens would probably be less humane than feeding live :whistling2:


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## herps06 (Jan 5, 2009)

After reading all the comments I have come to this conclusion..... It all depends on opinion. I will never feed any tarantula anything else other than invertabrates. But it's natural that tarantulas are way more important than a mouse or rat. They are apex predators and they have to eat something?!?! I will put it another way: Leave the ts to eat what they want in the wild but only feed them rodents if you are preparing a large female for breeding or if a large t has recently moulted. By large I mean Lasiodora or Theraphosa. Case closed!:whip:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

herps06 said:


> But it's natural that tarantulas are way more important than a mouse or rat. They are *apex* *predators* and they have to eat something?!?!


Not sure Coati Mundi would agree with that part :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## barrymc123 (Jan 7, 2010)

i think in the case of spiders, feeding live is needed tho what spider that is a pet that needs to eat a mouse? feeder insects do the job for me, as for my snake, i own a royal and if i have feeding problems i would def try live feeding to try and get the natural feeding responce i think the difference is, fedding to help the animal and feeding live for personal enterment, tho i really enjoy feeding my t's its really the only time i get to see them move!


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

herps06 said:


> After reading all the comments I have come to this conclusion..... It all depends on opinion. I will never feed any tarantula anything else other than invertabrates. But it's natural that tarantulas are way more important than a mouse or rat. They are apex predators and they have to eat something?!?! I will put it another way: Leave the ts to eat what they want in the wild but only feed them rodents if you are preparing a large female for breeding or if a large t has recently moulted. By large I mean Lasiodora or Theraphosa. Case closed!:whip:


Or a large pokie etc...we have an extremely large AF P.Tig she's gonna be having one later as we have a MM to intro in a few days.

Any large T can handle them. As a rule we give them to anything with a LS of 7 inches or more.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

DannyB said:


> Interesting. But there is still the issue of drawing the line under what can and cant be fed alive. You say yourself that inverts do have some sort of pain sense, so why then say they can be fed alive and vertebrates cant?


I didn't say that vertebrates *can't* be fed alive (and indeed UK law doesn't say this is the case either) ... what I said is that it is cruel to feed a live vertebrate to *anything* _unnecessarily _(i.e. if the predator will take pre-killed prey or an alternative prey item).

Most insect-eating animals - whether the predator is a vertebrate or invertebrate - will not take *dead *insects, therefore it is a regrettable but necessary case to feed them *live *insects.

Many vertebrate-eating animals - regardless of the predator's backbone or lack of it - _will _take dead vertebrate prey. Therefore in those cases it is ALWAYS less cruel to feed dead vertebrate prey, and if it is not _necessary _to feed living prey, it is cruel to do so. If a specific vertebrate-eating predator will _only _take live vertebrates then it is a regrettable but necessary thing to feed that predator what it will eat.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> I didn't say that vertebrates *can't* be fed alive (and indeed UK law doesn't say this is the case either) ... what I said is that it is cruel to feed a live vertebrate to *anything* _unnecessarily _(i.e. if the predator will take pre-killed prey or an alternative prey item).
> 
> Most insect-eating animals - whether the predator is a vertebrate or invertebrate - will not take *dead *insects, therefore it is a regrettable but necessary case to feed them *live *insects.
> 
> Many vertebrate-eating animals - regardless of the predator's backbone or lack of it - _will _take dead vertebrate prey. Therefore in those cases it is ALWAYS less cruel to feed dead vertebrate prey, and if it is not _necessary _to feed living prey, it is cruel to do so. If a specific vertebrate-eating predator will _only _take live vertebrates then it is a regrettable but necessary thing to feed that predator what it will eat.



ok i must have misunderstood your post.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Muze said:


> Or a large pokie etc...we have an extremely large AF P.Tig she's gonna be having one later as we have a MM to intro in a few days.
> 
> Any large T can handle them. As a rule we give them to anything with a LS of 7 inches or more.



Is it as messy as i imagine it to be?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

DannyB said:


> Is it as messy as i imagine it to be?


nope...not too pleasant to watch if you dont like that sort of thing all you see is the rodent hanging from the T's fangs (if thats not too graphic). All thats left after is a shrivelled up black bolous which we always remove the next morning.


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## SpiderFreek (Feb 23, 2010)

I think it's wrong and totally not needed to feed anything other than invertebrates to T's. They get by perfectly fine being fed on invertebrates which experience less pain than vertebrates. Also, T's do not require calcium in their diet and a high amount of it can give them moulting problems. Or so i'm told.

-Matt


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## mikemike118 (Aug 15, 2009)

i wouldnt have a problem if the mouse would die quick, but if it dies panfully and slowly then its abit pathetic.


Also it isn't recommended as the mouse can cause harm to the tarantula.


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Muze said:


> nope...not too pleasant to watch if you dont like that sort of thing all you see is the rodent hanging from the T's fangs (if thats not too graphic). All thats left after is a shrivelled up black bolous which we always remove the next morning.


I dont suppose it should be messy thinking about it, they dont rip their food apart like scorpians so no blood should be released, or atleast very little.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Im not up for live feeding it cruel and 99 percent of the time Not needed I would never personally do it it's wrong a tarantulas is hardly a apex predatare im sure a Bosc or something would happily oblitarate a tarantula how would that make u feel.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

DannyB said:


> I dont suppose it should be messy thinking about it, they dont rip their food apart like scorpians so no blood should be released, or atleast very little.


nope..and as the rodent is dead already there isnt anything overly upsetting to watch. The only movement from the rodent is residual nerve movement.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Feeding live crickets ect to spiders can't be as bad as the sick joke cooked up by the infamous spider forum troll Mr Sainsbury (aka Tescos).

Chicken Crap :: Spider Smoothie


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## pirez (May 3, 2009)

Feeding live crickets ect to spiders can't be as bad as the sick joke cooked up by the infamous spider forum troll Mr Sainsbury (aka Tescos).

Chicken Crap :: Spider Smoothie

I'd love to put that scumbag in a blender!


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

pire said:


> Feeding live crickets ect to spiders can't be as bad as the sick joke cooked up by the infamous spider forum troll Mr Sainsbury (aka Tescos).
> 
> Chicken Crap :: Spider Smoothie
> 
> I'd love to put that scumbag in a blender!


Don't worry there is a long line in front of you :whistling2:


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## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

what a sick twat!

i'd love to be on my own with him in a room

wouldn't be responsible for my actions

put him in a blender!


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

lol I remember that from years ago. Thats not him in the last pic though, thats just some dick that stole his pics and put them on another site as his own.:gasp:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> what a sick twat!
> 
> i'd love to be on my own with him in a room
> 
> ...


Yes strange the BTS or some such did not have anything to say about it!


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

no not cruel, but not necessary. I don't give my Tarantulas live mice, but only because...

A) they don't need them in their diet

B) I worry the mouse would bite the Tarantula

If I kept snakes, especially constrictors, I would probably live feed, as most Americans and those on mainland Europe do, we're the weirdos with our warped morality.:lol2:


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## Pinkytoes (Jun 25, 2009)

Oderus said:


> Don't worry there is a long line in front of you :whistling2:


surely that wasn't real? Didnt he just add legs from a moult to give that impression ?


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Pinkytoes said:


> surely that wasn't real? Didnt he just add legs from a moult to give that impression ?


Most lightly, but knowing that troll it could have been real, he admitted drowning a T in booze when he was in the far east, and starving a blue front juv until it's abdomen was smaller then it's carapace....


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Oderus said:


> Yes strange the BTS or some such did not have anything to say about it!



their an opened minded bunch!

What's that old saying? A G.rosea smoothy a day, keeps the doctor away?

or was that an apple....

in fact, it probably was an apple. The urticating hairs which that smoothie would be full of...can't be good for the throat!:gasp:


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## Pinkytoes (Jun 25, 2009)

Oderus said:


> Most lightly, but knowing that troll it could have been real.


who is this person? A user on here perchance?:gasp:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

joeyboy said:


> If I kept snakes, especially constrictors, I would probably live feed, as most Americans and those on mainland Europe do, we're the weirdos with our warped morality.:lol2:


Most responsible American keepers feed defrost too.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Pinkytoes said:


> who is this person? A user on here perchance?:gasp:


No he's banned which is for the best.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Most responsible American keepers feed defrost too.


Yup not many would give a live rat to 20K BP :2thumb:


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Most responsible American keepers feed defrost too.


ah right, it's just I was under impression some imported snakes were poor feeders, as they were used to the natural way of eating.


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## Pinkytoes (Jun 25, 2009)

Oderus said:


> Most lightly, but knowing that troll it could have been real, he admitted drowning a T in booze when he was in the far east, and starving a blue front juv until it's abdomen was smaller then it's carapace....


you are joking me???:gasp:
What a bastard!:devil::devil::devil:


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Pinkytoes said:


> you are joking me???:gasp:
> What a bastard!:devil::devil::devil:


my MM H.lividums abdomen is smaller then it's carapace

if it was a wild T, it's abdomen was probably already smaller.:lol2:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

joeyboy said:


> ah right, it's just I was under impression some imported snakes were poor feeders, as they were used to the natural way of eating.


If their raising their own rodents and feeding younger snakes they may not bovver to take the time to switch them to dead if they have been started on live, but iv never bought anything US bred except were it came second hand from a UK seller so iv not first hand on that.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Pinkytoes said:


> you are joking me???:gasp:
> What a bastard!:devil::devil::devil:


His mate's are no better I won't use there real names here but their most common screen names, a Dutch chap named after a US metal act, and one that uses a name from the US toon ATHF, thankfully they get short thrift on most boards.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

joeyboy said:


> ah right, it's just I was under impression some imported snakes were poor feeders, as they were used to the natural way of eating.


When you breed thousands of snakes a year, and you also breed your own rodents, it may be faster and more convenient to chuck a live rat pup in with a baby snake - the snake is unlikely to be injured by a newborn rat, and if the snake doesn't eat, the pup can be put back with mum or feed another snake instead of being wasted.

But that's business "breeders" who do it that way, not pet "keepers".


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Oderus said:


> His mate's are no better I won't use there real names here but their most common screen names, a Dutch chap named after a US metal act, and one that uses a name from the US toon ATHF, thankfully they get short thrift on most boards.


Thank goodness we don't have that sort of person here :whistling2:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

garlicpickle said:


> Thank goodness we don't have that sort of person here :whistling2:


The guys on the snake board are way funnier then he ever was:lol2:


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> When you breed thousands of snakes a year, and you also breed your own rodents, it may be faster and more convenient to chuck a live rat pup in with a baby snake - the snake is unlikely to be injured by a newborn rat, and if the snake doesn't eat, the pup can be put back with mum or feed another snake instead of being wasted.
> 
> But that's business "breeders" who do it that way, not pet "keepers".


I still don't see the moral issue though?

If mice are being as feeders, to me it is no different then an adult locust, they are farmed to be eaten.

Surely it is more natural for snakes, especially some species, to hunt the prey, grab it, and constrict it, the wriggling of the mouse stimulating the snake to squeeze and no doubt stimulating the feeding response(so it'll eat it). Obviously the risk is that a snake grabs the mouse poorly, and the mouse/rat had a chance to bite back. To avoid this couldn't you simply feed pinkes and rat pups? 

Are there not any species which really can't adapt to taking pre-killed? As so they must be fed live?

Snakes aren't my thing really, the only one which takes my interest is a rough/smooth green snake, which are actually insect eaters I believe. I'll be a rebel, I'll feed the locusts live!:gasp:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

joeyboy said:


> Surely it is more natural for snakes, especially some species, to hunt the prey, grab it, and constrict it, the wriggling of the mouse stimulating the snake to squeeze and no doubt stimulating the feeding response(so it'll eat it). Obviously the risk is that a snake grabs the mouse poorly, and the mouse/rat had a chance to bite back. To avoid this couldn't you simply feed pinkes and rat pups?


Give your pinky a good old tugging :lol2:


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

joeyboy said:


> I still don't see the moral issue though?
> 
> If mice are being as feeders, to me it is no different then an adult locust, they are farmed to be eaten.
> 
> ...



feeding an adult boa on pinkies and/or rat pups would be somewhat time-consuming :lol2:


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

garlicpickle said:


> feeding an adult boa on pinkies and/or rat pups would be somewhat time-consuming :lol2:


fine adult then, surely they..know how to constrict a mouse?

We take the same risks with crickets do we not? A cricket COULD nip back, I don't doubt crickets sometimes have a bite at the chelicerae of the Tarantulas, they probably just go "haha nice bite you bugger! wanna see mine again! Time to mush you up!":lol2:


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

joeyboy said:


> fine adult then, surely they..know how to constrict a mouse?
> 
> We take the same risks with crickets do we not? A cricket COULD nip back, I don't doubt crickets sometimes have a bite at the chelicerae of the Tarantulas, they probably just go "haha nice bite you bugger! wanna see mine again! Time to mush you up!":lol2:


If I remember correctly there's a species of Tiger snake that lives on an island that feeds on birds . Something like half the population has a least one eye missing . 

Knowing how to hunt something doesn't mean the predator wont get hurt in the precess .


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Very true but some ppl do pre kill even inverts and not only for slings' iv found both verts and inverts will offen be taken but many spiders without much if any fuss, infact many predators are opportunitist feeders on what ever they can find live or dead.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

wow, i just watched a vid on youtube.....it looks bloody evil. it looks 10 times worse than feeding to a snake


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

mrcarlxx said:


> wow, i just watched a vid on youtube.....it looks bloody evil. it looks 10 times worse than feeding to a snake


I'v heard of a report of 40 minutes or so once for pink/fuzzy to die being chewed at by a T (a _P. formosa _at that!), that maybe extreme but judging by the youtube vid's the time to death as much more to do with were the spider bites the mouse as venom, which may indicate they don't bovver with envenomation of prey that put's up a weak fight.


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## Oliverar (Feb 17, 2010)

That is truly evil it is horrible.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

Oderus said:


> I'v heard of a report of 40 minutes or so once for pink/fuzzy to die being chewed at by a T (a _P. formosa _at that!), that maybe extreme but judging by the youtube vid's the time to death as much more to do with were the spider bites the mouse as venom, which may indicate they don't bovver with envenomation of prey that put's up a weak fight.


40 mins?

if thats true then that is shocking!

atleast with a snakes its nearly always over in a matter of seconds up to a min tops


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## Simon M (Oct 9, 2008)

I would love to feed baseball hat wearing chavs to my T's.

Now thats what I call humane :devil:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

joeyboy said:


> If mice are being as feeders, to me it is no different then an adult locust, they are farmed to be eaten.


Yes, they are bred to be eaten.

I don't see modern men going out and using spears to kill cattle so that they can have steaks... or crunching up anything they can catch raw and wriggling.

Just because it's bred for food doesn't mean it somehow becomes less alive or less likely to feel pain, stress and fear. It's still a living thing and deserves as much respect as something that was bred as a pet, even if that respect takes the form of providing it with a humane death instead of allowing it to suffer an inhumane one.



> Surely it is more natural for snakes


A snake that lives in a container in someone's living room, with artificial heating, a substrate that doesn't exist in that form in the wild, plastic plants and easy to clean branches.... throw the word "natural" out of your vocabulary.

In nature, if a snake didn't get a clean strike and grab, the rodent can run away, and the snake can pick the best place to ambush from to GET that clean strike and grab.



> Are there not any species which really can't adapt to taking pre-killed? As so they must be fed live?


Very, very, VERY few. Most of the ones that don't adapt are ones that do not eat *rodents* in the wild and generally insist on live lizards, snakes or insects. If you chose to keep one of those species, yes, it would be your responsibility to maintain the health of your pet by feeding it food it recognises. Then it is not sheer stupid blind willful cruelty to give live prey - it is regrettable necessity.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Oderus said:


> I'v heard of a report of 40 minutes or so once for pink/fuzzy to die being chewed at by a T (a _P. formosa _at that!), that maybe extreme but judging by the youtube vid's the time to death as much more to do with were the spider bites the mouse as venom, which may indicate they don't bovver with envenomation of prey that put's up a weak fight.


Thats what p*sses me off, for the sake of less than a second (cervical dislocation depending on size or a blow to the head... as long as you know what you are doing) That mouse could have been saved a hell of a lot of torture.

We have feeder/breeders here (rats) and they are given large cages where they can climb, they have toys, fed a variety of foods and treated like pet rats would be. I dont believe in shoving them in tiny rubs with barely enough space to turn around. 

When its time to use them as food (we have reptiles as well as spiders) they get dispatched using what we believe is the quickest most humane method.


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## squaccy (Nov 18, 2008)

aah i love you guys  10 pages of debates and not much of a sign of pitchforks :flrt: :flrt: :flrt: 


But...I don't think I could ever feed live mice to anything- their squeaks would make me cry...just like the video i found ages ago on youtube that had a snake eating a guinnea pig...that traumatised me  Least crickets and locusts don't make a noise so its easier to "detach" yourself. And the way my spids and mantids gobble down the crickets they don't have time to suffer!


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## Pinkytoes (Jun 25, 2009)

Worst one I have ever seen on you tube was someone fed a live pinky to a MANTIS!
It was one of the worst barbaric things I had the misfortune to have seen:devil:


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

squaccy said:


> *aah i love you guys  10 pages of debates and not much of a sign of pitchforks* :flrt: :flrt: :flrt:
> 
> 
> But...I don't think I could ever feed live mice to anything- their squeaks would make me cry...just like the video i found ages ago on youtube that had a snake eating a guinnea pig...that traumatised me  Least crickets and locusts don't make a noise so its easier to "detach" yourself. And the way my spids and mantids gobble down the crickets they don't have time to suffer!


 
That's because I've stayed quiet throughout the majority of this thread, forgive me, I am eating breakfast :lol2:
I think we need a few pitchforks and a couple of declarations of shenanigans!


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## k_orbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Muze said:


> Having been brought up in deepest darkest Cornwall and been around farming and hunting and having done so myself for many years i have no problems with killing animals for food and do so regularly.
> 
> I personally think if you cant kill it you shouldnt eat it...


Growing up in a rodent infested place in a tropical country.. 


I could say something closely the same. ^^

When I was growing up, we had problems with ducklings and chicks getting snatched by rodents.. rats to be exact.

If rodents could prey on other live animals, why can't we do the same thing to them?

:notworthy:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> aah i love you guys  10 pages of debates and not much of a sign of pitchforks


accept for my mate Tescos and his milkshake!:whistling2:


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## rockergirl1 (Feb 4, 2010)

Dont agree with it, its cruel and illigal (in the UK)


Nothing should be made to suffer if we have a choice in the matter.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I personally think if you cant kill it you shouldnt eat it...


Well lucky for the farmers of pigs, sheep, cows etc etc, most of us still live on planet Earth as they would have all gone out of bussiness a long time ago.:whistling2:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

k_orbz said:


> If rodents could prey on other live animals, why can't we do the same thing to them?
> 
> :notworthy:


 
Are you serious? Are you really saying that rodents and human beings have the same morals?


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## Jamie (Nov 18, 2007)




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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> Are you serious? Are you really saying that rodents and human beings have the same morals?


Hence the term "love rat"?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Hence the term "love rat"?


Oh dear someones been two timed and they are still bitter.:lol2:


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> Oh dear someones been two timed and they are still bitter.:lol2:


aww don't cry Poodle, Mrs Right is just around the corner, I'm sure. :2thumb:


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## chylands (Feb 6, 2010)

waynegarland said:


> I feed my T Blondis the odd mouse or chick but there dead of course. The need for feeding live mice to spiders is needless as they do perfectly fine on an insect diet. I keep snakes also which are all fed on thawed out rodents but if one snake stopped eating I would consider live as it's 100% legal to feed live mice to snakes.
> 
> Read this link.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html#post1000620


Technically while it's not illegal to actually feed live vertebrates to snakes etc, you can still be procescuted in the UK under the animal welfare act by not providing the mouse with it's five provisions. That's where it's really tricky coz yes, it's legal under one law, but under basic animal welfare it's actually illegal.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

garlicpickle said:


> aww don't cry Poodle, Mrs Right is just around the corner, I'm sure. :2thumb:


your strange


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> your strange


Flirty Mr poodle you know the way to a womans heart: victory:


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## Gomjaba (May 25, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> it is also illegal- ditto feeding live mice to snakes.


It is not ...


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> Well lucky for the farmers of pigs, sheep, cows etc etc, most of us still live on planet Earth as they would have all gone out of bussiness a long time ago.:whistling2:


I don't know about farmers and how much pig muck ect they have to move about, but after what someone showed me not long back mate you want to invest in a bidet any day soon :whistling2:


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## durbans (Sep 16, 2009)

Now I haven't read this entire thread, but I've gotta ask: everybody here feeds their T's on live insects right? Yes LIVE insects (I've read the phrase 'bunny-hugger' on here which I think is very valid)...I've never fed a live vertebrate to a T or snake but when I feed my snake defrost mice most of the mice look like they have died in stressfull and agonising conditions. How much do people know about where your frozen mice come from; how they live and how they die? I'd rather raise the mice myself and kill them myself personally so I can know they died peacefully, but I can't justify it for my one snake :lol2:

They're my 2 cents......just because they are fluffly doesn't mean they can't contribute to the food chain!


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> your strange


Love is a strange thing, lunchtime more so.




Oderus said:


> Flirty Mr poodle you know the way to a womans heart: victory:


it's the invitation to sniff his pants that does it for me


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

I can understand that. PM me your addy and I will send you my finest soild pair.:thumb:


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

Pinkytoes said:


> Completely cruel and needless, I think the keepers gets more pleasure from it than the animal does.
> My snake gets fed "humanely dispatched" mice if live feeding of vertibrates was a necessity I wouldn't keep either.
> And regardless of what I have been told there is NO justifiable reason or need to feed live


so you think its not cruel and justified to watch a snake that only eats live prey to starve itself to death?


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## Simon M (Oct 9, 2008)

This is a type of thread which will live as long as we keep reps and T's, with pros and cons on both sides. Its difficult to be sure. After all, as humans we have livestock that is bred for food (and pros and antis to wether it is humane etc). On top of that, many think it natural to put in live mice, others not so. Is it also natural that we keep our animals in confines of tanks (despite our best efforts to make it natural as poss?)
Also, the _frozen _mice that we use instead of live (to make us feel more humane?) have been killed at some stage and are bred for food.

Lots of pros and cons going on here with this thread (and a good thread it is too) - and the *most *important thing - we must respect feelings on both sides.

Like I mentioned, if I feed to breeding females, I use thawed out dead mice because I want no harm to my T's, not because I have a moral issue.

After all, as you see from my pic, I'm in the buisiness where human life is on the line - you kind of get a different outlook......................

Cheers
Si


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> Well lucky for the farmers of pigs, sheep, cows etc etc, most of us still live on planet Earth as they would have all gone out of bussiness a long time ago.:whistling2:


I think the person who said "If you can't kill it you shouldn't eat it" was basically saying "if you can't stomach the _idea _of killing your own food, perhaps eating meat isn't for you." 



durbans said:


> when I feed my snake defrost mice most of the mice look like they have died in stressfull and agonising conditions.


It's amazing what being stuck in a freezer bag after being humanely euthanised using CO2 does to the *look* of a dead rodent. The bloody noses tend to come from the simple fact that freezing causes liquids - like blood which are mostly water - to expand, bursting blood vessels; when they thaw out, blood leaks out. It's better to buy ones that are clean-nosed simply because they're unlikely to have been thawed and refrozen.



> I'd rather raise the mice myself and kill them myself personally so I can know they died peacefully, but I can't justify it for my one snake :lol2:


If you like keeping mice, you can certainly justify keeping a trio to feed your snake the best quality food you can get.



tokay said:


> so you think its not cruel and justified to watch a snake that only eats live prey to starve itself to death?


See, this is why I make the distinction between *necessary* live feeding - where the eater will not eat dead prey - and *unnecessary* live feeding, where it's the owner's choice to do so instead of a necessity. Necessary live feeding is preventing cruelty through ignorance and neglect.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I think the person who said "If you can't kill it you shouldn't eat it" was basically saying "if you can't stomach the _idea _of killing your own food, perhaps eating meat isn't for you."


This is exactly what i meant...thanks :2thumb:


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## k_orbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> Are you serious? Are you really saying that rodents and human beings have the same morals?


Uhmm.. Can we talk about Iraq now? ^^

Nevermind.. I was just stating what I feel.

Anyways, let's put it like this.. If you think feeding mice to exotic pets, then why do most of us feed crickets to them? Oh.. Crickets are more defenceless than rodents right? 

I just don't understand why feeding rodents is considered cruel while feeding crickets are ok. Oh, maybe I'm just a heartless person who grew up in a rodent infested environment that learned to hate them because they chew my shoelaces to shreds more than once.

:bash:


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## dodgy (Sep 15, 2009)

mice & rats are classed as VERMIN.
do any of you think its humane to be POISONED to death? well its perfectly legal to do that. i think id rather be eaten by a giant spider than die by arsnic poisoning. much less messy... at both ends...:blush:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I wouldn't poison a rodent either.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Muze said:


> This is exactly what i meant...thanks :2thumb:


 Yes I knew what you ment. Did you understand me?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

k_orbz said:


> Uhmm.. Can we talk about Iraq now? ^^
> 
> Nevermind.. I was just stating what I feel.
> 
> ...


Iraq??? you will have to spell that one out as you have completely lost me there.
nothing to do with defence but more to do with their biology.
No I don t think you are heartless I just think you may be a bit simple. I dont mean this as an insult just from what I gather from the points you have made or not made.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> it is also illegal- ditto feeding live mice to snakes.


No, it isn't illegal.

I think that if your animal will eat fresh killed or fresh thawed, then there is no need to feed live.

You can't call yourself an animal lover if you willingly subject an animal to needless pain and suffering.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dodgy said:


> mice & rats are classed as VERMIN.
> do any of you think its humane to be POISONED to death? well its perfectly legal to do that. i think id rather be eaten by a giant spider than die by arsnic poisoning. much less messy... at both ends...:blush:


Yep its a strange and very hypercritical world we live in isnt it. But as you ask , no I do not like the idea of rat poison either. Nor do many rat catches either, I am told.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

SexyBear77 said:


> No, it isn't illegal.
> 
> I think that if your animal will eat fresh killed or fresh thawed, then there is no need to feed live.
> 
> You can't call yourself an animal lover if you willingly subject an animal to needless pain and suffering.


Yup simples there is a clear difference between basic understanding and a sensable degree of empathy and loopy extremes of "bunny huggery" in my own mind but dispite how long thread's like this tend to drag on I think most right minded ppl can see the balances in life that need to be struck : victory:


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## squaccy (Nov 18, 2008)

Oderus said:


> Yup simples there is a clear difference between basic understanding and a sensable degree of empathy and loopy extremes of "bunny huggery" in my own mind but dispite how long thread's like this tend to drag on I think most right minded ppl can see the balances in life that need to be struck : victory:


well said  and still no sharp pitchforks  :flrt: :flrt: :flrt: aaah such a refreshing change  *hands free slings to everyone*


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## Pinkytoes (Jun 25, 2009)

I think the OP has sufficient replies to gain insight on opinion now..agreed? : victory:


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