# Is antivenom suitable for vegans?



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

As the title says, is antivenom suitable for vegans from an ethical viewpoint? Obviously it contains snake venom which as far as I know is obtained quite humanely but what is done then? I have read it is something to do with injecting a donor animal with it and using the blood or something. I'm not sure on this though. Any clarification would be appreciated as I can't find a solid answer for this. 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## IslandSerpentine (Dec 25, 2015)

surely using the donor animal blood would not be very vegan either?

But if getting anti venom isn't suitable for vegans, then I'd say if one got bitten by a venomous snake it will be shocking how quick they suddenly change their views on veganism!


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

I was not sure how the whole process worked, the blood of a donor animal was just 'something I've heard' and could be a complete falsehood. If that is the process it isn't vegan.

Honestly, I don't think I would take antivenom if the need arises. Not that I have or probably ever will be in that situation of course and until then it is impossible to predict whether I would still think the same. 


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

FishForLife2001 said:


> As the title says, is antivenom suitable for vegans from an ethical viewpoint? Obviously it contains snake venom which as far as I know is obtained quite humanely but what is done then? I have read it is something to do with injecting a donor animal with it and using the blood or something. I'm not sure on this though. Any clarification would be appreciated as I can't find a solid answer for this.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk



genuine vegans would not consider antivenin as vegan. honey isn't considered vegan and is gathered humanely.


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Yeah but you can live without honey. If the antivenom process was humane (which I have read it isn't now) whilst not technically vegan, to save someones life I don't see the problem. Depends how much of a 'hardcore' vegan you are though.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

I think Sharpstrain is right - vegans won't use ingredients like beeswax in skincare etc

I suppose you must be seriously committed to the ideal if the question is "ok take the antivenom or die a vegan in agony in 10 minutes"

interesting question tho Fish. Not something I've ever thought about.

But I make handmade soap and skincare, and was rather surprised at what was considered verboten.


----------



## IslandSerpentine (Dec 25, 2015)

face it, no vegan facing death is going to say they dont want it. 

Anyway, op, you're 14 so it wouldn't be up to you. Your parent/guardian would tell you to stop being a brat and have the damn anti venom!


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

IslandSerpentine said:


> face it, no vegan facing death is going to say they dont want it.
> 
> Anyway, op, you're 14 so it wouldn't be up to you. Your parent/guardian would tell you to stop being a brat and have the damn anti venom!


Why?

No but it is exceedingly unlikely to ever come into contact with venomous species at my age. I was thinking to the future if I ever worked with venomous animals.

Not sure if your joking there, but caring about animal welfare isn't really being a brat surely?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

Iulia said:


> I think Sharpstrain is right - vegans won't use ingredients like beeswax in skincare etc
> 
> I suppose you must be seriously committed to the ideal if the question is "ok take the antivenom or die a vegan in agony in 10 minutes"
> 
> ...


I might do some more research into this, I wonder if this has actually ever occurred.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

... No. Definitely not vegan. However vegans don't refuse life-saving treatment just because something is not vegan. Vegans refuse to use animals as far as is practically possible - many medications, in fact a great deal of medication that is approved as safe for humans, has at some point undergone animal trials. Many more contain non vegan substances such as gelatine and lactose. The NHS doesn't provide "vegan" alternatives to standard medication. Very few vegans are so hardcore as to take it that literally when it comes to the basic practicalities of health.


----------



## IslandSerpentine (Dec 25, 2015)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Why?
> 
> No but it is exceedingly unlikely to ever come into contact with venomous species at my age. I was thinking to the future if I ever worked with venomous animals.
> 
> ...


Of course i'm not saying that caring about the welfare of animals is being a brat! 

i was making a joke at the fact that you think that it would help animals by dying writhing in agony, it won't be a graceful stand for animal rights, gently slipping away to be forever remembered for saving snakes lives by refusing the anti-venom.

When you're older you'll probably laugh at yourself if you remember this thread. 
I get it, I've been that young vegan thinking you can change the world, you'd do ANYTHING to save an animal from harm, but trust me, you wouldn't die!


----------



## IslandSerpentine (Dec 25, 2015)

Athravan said:


> ... No. Definitely not vegan. However vegans don't refuse life-saving treatment just because something is not vegan. Vegans refuse to use animals as far as is practically possible - many medications, in fact a great deal of medication that is approved as safe for humans, has at some point undergone animal trials. Many more contain non vegan substances such as gelatine and lactose. The NHS doesn't provide "vegan" alternatives to standard medication. Very few vegans are so hardcore as to take it that literally when it comes to the basic practicalities of health.


exactly.

ever had a vaccination? you know they aren't vegan right...?

would you rather refuse a vaccine and risk getting very ill or dying?


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

IslandSerpentine said:


> exactly.
> 
> ever had a vaccination? you know they aren't vegan right...?
> 
> would you rather refuse a vaccine and risk getting very ill or dying?


Yes, and yes. I have only been vegan for around a month so I haven't been concerned about them in the past. I don't think I need any more anyway, but if so I would not have it. 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

IslandSerpentine said:


> Of course i'm not saying that caring about the welfare of animals is being a brat!
> 
> i was making a joke at the fact that you think that it would help animals by dying writhing in agony, it won't be a graceful stand for animal rights, gently slipping away to be forever remembered for saving snakes lives by refusing the anti-venom.
> 
> ...


I'm sure it wouldn't 'help the cause' or anything. However it means a few less animals killed for something they had no choice or decision in.

As I said I have no idea what I would think if I was in that situation.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Yes, and yes. I have only been vegan for around a month so I haven't been concerned about them in the past. I don't think I need any more anyway, but if so I would not have it.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk



I am afraid that the vast majority of medical intervention isn't vegan - if you ever go to uni you will have to have a meningitis jab, flu jabs a and lots of other standard treatments have been made from or tested on. I want vegan fro 1 years until circumstances tripped me up - if you delve you will see how very difficult it is to be fully vegan in every way.


----------



## IslandSerpentine (Dec 25, 2015)

sharpstrain said:


> I am afraid that the vast majority of medical intervention isn't vegan - if you ever go to uni you will have to have a meningitis jab, flu jabs a and lots of other standard treatments have been made from or tested on. I want vegan fro 1 years until circumstances tripped me up - if you delve you will see how very difficult it is to be fully vegan in every way.


too true, it's harder than you think. the eating part is actually the easiest bit!

Absolutely everything we do impacts or comes from animals in one way or another, it's impossible to live in our modern world without harming animals.

I was vegan for about a year and a half, but there's no way i fully succeeded. You buy anything and animals have been impacted somehow, even if it's in the most indirect way, i still felt i couldn't call myself vegan. farming the veg/grains - impacts animals
milk/dairy alternatives - soya farming destroys the rainforest
write on a piece of paper - whoops! done it again, hurt some animals!
You keep fish... fed them today? oh no! thats killed some animals!
hell you even turn on a light you're harming animals! 

you just can't live fully vegan. 

In the end i fell quite seriously ill and was advised to help my recovery by changing my diet back, so i compromised and became pescetarian, and then vegetarian once i was back to health.

I've been vegetarian for a long time now, and i'm happy with that, i realise that i can't save them all. I'm still very cautious of where my food comes from, for example only eating things with free range eggs in and using eggs from my own hens where possible, but i don't feel guilty if i'm having a rotten day and go and get myself a big hot chocolate when i don't know where the milk is sourced from. It's about compromise, and realising that you need to have a life to.

Anti venon is kept whether it's used or not, it will always be there, when it expires new stuff is gathered, so you using a little vial of something that is already there to save your life won't kill anymore animals than already would have been. No one milks a snake just for each person bitten. 

When you're as old as me you'll see things a lot clearer.


----------



## Khonsu (May 20, 2009)

I'm all for vegans - I just can't eat a whole one

Actually the more vegans there are the better, leaves more meat for me

I'll get me coat :gasp:


----------



## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

Antivenom doesn't contain venom but does contain horse or sheep antibodies (or antibody fragments), raised in response to venom injection. No animals should die in the production process (but the pre-clinical quality control assays will be conducted on mice). By the time a vegan has been envenomed, they already have an animal product circulating (venom), so refusing antivenom would be pretty pointless. Also, if you are in a condition where antivenom is recommended, there is a good chance that you will be incapable of refusing (you will be unconcious sooner or later).


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

DavidR said:


> Antivenom doesn't contain venom but does contain horse or sheep antibodies (or antibody fragments), raised in response to venom injection. No animals should die in the production process (but the pre-clinical quality control assays will be conducted on mice). By the time a vegan has been envenomed, they already have an animal product circulating (venom), so refusing antivenom would be pretty pointless. Also, if you are in a condition where antivenom is recommended, there is a good chance that you will be incapable of refusing (you will be unconcious sooner or later).


Ah OK thanks for that.

It doesn't matter about venom being inside you. Veganism is opposing the exploitation of animals, being bitten by a venomous snake by its own doing isn't un-vegan.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

FishForLife2001 said:


> Ah OK thanks for that.
> Veganism is opposing the exploitation of animals


Trust me, if you get tagged you won't be worrying about where the medication comes from. 

And if you are either keeping or catching a snake, that probably is exploitation


----------



## FishForLife2001 (Sep 23, 2014)

I guess. I should add I don't plan to go anywhere near any venomous snakes this was just something I was interested in.

I am uncertain about snakes and animals in captivity. There are so many reasons its right but also wrong and I can't decide. 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------

