# rat/mice breeding



## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

Hi im wanting to get into breeding rats/mice to sell on as pets because round my area not many pet shops sell them and as i will not buy from pets at home this seems like a good idea what i want to know is what kind of setups will i need thanks


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## Jasmin1990 (Apr 16, 2010)

RUBs otherwise known as Really Useful Boxes, with a bit of mesh to make sure air can get in and a secure lid and it will be a perfect place for a mouse/rat to live :2thumb:


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Jasmin1990 said:


> RUBs otherwise known as Really Useful Boxes, with a bit of mesh to make sure air can get in and a secure lid and it will be a perfect place for a mouse/rat to live :2thumb:


Not big enough for rats as ethical, permanent housing : victory:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Jasmin1990 said:


> RUBs otherwise known as Really Useful Boxes, with a bit of mesh to make sure air can get in and a secure lid and it will be a perfect place for a mouse/rat to live :2thumb:


 
Since rats like to climb it wouldnt make good housing for them at all. A nice big wire cage with shelves and hammocks would be good but I think you would also need a one level cage for the pregnant does to kitten in and seperate caging for the males.


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## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> Since rats like to climb it wouldnt make good housing for them at all. A nice big wire cage with shelves and hammocks would be good but I think you would also need a one level cage for the pregnant does to kitten in and seperate caging for the males.


im thining towards housing in rubs tbh


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

kingball said:


> im thining towards housing in rubs tbh


To put it bluntly, that makes you no better than the petshops/pets at home you wish to avoid.

As a pet owner who cares for the welfare of my pets, I would not buy from somebody who houses rats in the bare minimum and provides nothing what they need for stimulation and happiness.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Minerva said:


> *To put it bluntly, that makes you no better than the petshops/pets at home you wish to avoid.*
> 
> As a pet owner who cares for the welfare of my pets, I would not buy from somebody who houses rats in the bare minimum and provides nothing what they need for stimulation and happiness.


 
I was just about to say this:2thumb:


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## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

ok then tell me what kind of setup YOU think they should have then ?


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## bikenut (Nov 29, 2010)

As I have said before, I breed my rats as feeders, and retire some as pets. 

The following are minimal setups for my feeders.

Firstly a breeders cage ideally one male and two females









(there are usually more toys in than this but most have been removed due to being demolished)

Next up are my nurseries (growing on RUB'S)










I also only breed my females once they have reached 4 months, this gives their bodies time to get ready, too soon and you risk inferior babies as well as the mothers health both short and long term.


Hope this helps, Im sure you can apply this for your pet breeding although you would have to handle them daily so they become suitable pets.


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## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

i have seen a big rat cage i think i might buy its huge plenty of climbing frames 
:mf_dribble:


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## bikenut (Nov 29, 2010)

They are ideal, but rubs are useful for pregnant females too, gives them peace from the male. You must howver if using a mesh cage keep an eye out for bumblefoot, its a very nasty infection of the foot which rats can get from dirty mesh cages.

I hope you do well in you ventures.


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## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

bikenut said:


> They are ideal, but rubs are useful for pregnant females too, gives them peace from the male. You must howver if using a mesh cage keep an eye out for bumblefoot, its a very nasty infection of the foot which rats can get from dirty mesh cages.
> 
> I hope you do well in you ventures.


thankyou


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Its a long time since I had rats, & I am now allergic to them, but IMO rats need height & length in their housing requirements. 

Wire cages make great housing, but be careful of sore feet due to too much exposure to the wire flooring. They are good when putting in toys, as you can hang plenty in them.

RUBs can be good but you have to make sure they are ventilated enough, otherwise you get lots of condensation inside & damp conditions will result in ill rats. They also lack height, & do not allow you to hang toys in as well as wire cages.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

i keep my rats in a similar cage to the one shown by bikenut. i didnt like the spacing on the wire floors so i carpeted mine. ask at a carpet shop for the old sample books they no longer need, then cut these to size (get REALLY sharp scissors), makes cleaning out easier aswell, you just shampoo the carpet :2thumb: only gets a bit annoying when you look at the quality of carpet in your sample book and realise your rats are living on more expensive carpet than you are :whistling2:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I used to use the cages shown, critter type, but personally I think they are only good for short term use by mice, hamsters and other rodents.
I do use them but as I say only for hospital cages or emergency cages for rescues.
I'm currently having to use them for my ferrets as they had to come in due to the weather.
If you are using them then cover the wire shelving with lino, or carpet as said but this rots and stinks very quickly, you can wash lino and get rid of the smell so it lasts longer.

I now use freddies, only having groups of 4-5, moslty and a couple haciendas for the big males.
I don't leave males in with females and I dont' breed females until 4.5-5months, they also only ever have 2 litters.
My males return to their groups when they have 'entertained' the girls but they are only with the girls for 8-9 days to cover two 'seasons'.

I do however use the RUB's for birthing and growing on.
When babies are 4 weeks old and ready to wean I then use the freddies aain. Of course more than 4-5 baby rts can be housed in a freddy until they are old enough to go to new homes.

As to mice...

You can permanently keep mice in RUBs without issue of space. Using 64's/84's/120's or he huge 145's is good depending on the planned group sizes.
I tended to keep my males in with my females with about 6 females in a 84 RUB. This way I found that the girls would not be mated as soon as they gave birth, he was entertaining other girls int he group, they might have two litters back to back but then rest themselves naturally for a few weeks.
When I had show type mice I kept two females together and the males in one group or seperately.

Keeping of rodents does depend on the reasons for breeding them as to the care that seems to be accepted by some people..I feel that even 'feeder' rodents should have some sort of enjoyment from theis lives, a nice living environment, toys, good food and handling even if it going to be pretty short.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

bikenut said:


> They are ideal, but rubs are useful for pregnant females too, gives them peace from the male. You must howver if using a mesh cage keep an eye out for bumblefoot, its a very nasty infection of the foot which rats can get from dirty mesh cages.
> 
> I hope you do well in you ventures.


The bumblefoot thing is a myth. It's caused by infection, by standing in wee/dirt. More likely to happen in dirty cages or those with shelves that allow wee/dirt to puddle up, eg plastic shelves that aren't cleaned regularly.

With regards what you need for breeding ethically. First of all, you need a trio of both sexes, minimum. When your rats aren't breeding, they need same sex company. So you'll need two decent sized cages for both males and females. Something like a Freddy, or the Critter cage already shown earlier. Not a fan of Critters personally, but they are handy for rats that chew, being all metal.

Then you need a nursery cage. I have a couple, depending on the mum. If mum is nervous of larger cages, she'll go in something like a small Zoozone, if mum is ok then she'll go in a Ferplast Mary (something similar would be a Savic Ruffy or Rene 82). Either way, we move her a few days before she's due to give birth (gestation being 21-25 days, I take mine out around day 18 ). This gives her time to nest on her own. She does *not* need company at this point.

If using the zoozone, we swap mum and babies into a Mary when the babies are starting to move around more. If using the Mary from the start, we sometimes move mum and babies into something bigger at around 2-3 weeks if it's a big litter (14+). If not, then they stay in the Mary until they are 4-5 weeks old - at which point the litter is split into two groups - boys and girls, and they each get a Freddy sized cage. Mum stays in with the girls until they are homed at 7-10 weeks. 

So, ideally, cage wise - you would need (if breeding only one litter at a time)....a zoozone, a Mary, 2 Freddy sized cages (or similar sized eg Jenny, Critter 2, Tom, Furet Plus - a cage with 1cm bar spacing) for babies to be split into, and two decent sized permanent cages for adults.

That's just practicality wise. Other things you need, are good foundation rats from a reputable breeder who breeds for health and temperament from rats who have an extensive history (eg. not pet shop or BYB rats - email [email protected] for a list of breeders in the country), lots of money for good food, vets bills (c-sections, etc - a breeders vets bills can run into the hundreds very quickly), extra cages, etc. You'll also need a strong heart to deal with losses (common) and problems. You'll also need a network of good breeder friends (the advice here about rubs has shown that you probably wont find many of those on a reptile forum - so you'll need to be active in the rat fancy).

If you need any help just shout, more than willing to help someone who wants to do things properly and ethically. However, I would find it unethical to help someone who was going to breed from feeder rats in a RUB set up. It just isn't humane, and I wouldn't want to help someone do that.

More info on breeding here:
Breeding Rats


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## bikenut (Nov 29, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> The bumblefoot thing is a myth. It's caused by infection, by standing in wee/dirt. More likely to happen in dirty cages or those with shelves that allow wee/dirt to puddle up, eg plastic shelves that aren't cleaned regularly.
> 
> Breeding Rats


Bumblefoot is not a myth, the fact that people think it only happens in wire cages is a myth. You are right, it is infact dirty cages that causes it. 
However I mentioned it due to the fact that mesh cages are more difficult to keep clean that a normal cage, that is why I said:

"You must howver if using a mesh cage keep an eye out for bumblefoot, its a very nasty infection of the foot which rats can get from dirty mesh cages."

Thanks


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I didnt say bumblefoot itself was a myth, although I admit I worded it wrong. I've had one or two with it myself in the past, esp old rescues.


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## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

can somebody post links to some decent cages for rats thanks


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Personally, whilst our rats are bred to produce ethically reared food for our snakes, the adults are still pets, females are only expected to have a couple of litters and these will be months apart. 
The boys were housed in a furet tower until they minced it and are now in a tall converted parrot cage with plastic levels, tubes etc. 
The two girls are currently in a five foot viv. Random but it works. 
Ours are fed on a mix of horse stud mix (high in oats), corn flakes, half decent dog biscuits (can't claim they're getting royal canin like the cats are but it's not a really cheap one!), micronised peas, pasta, hay (lots of people don't provide it but I like to, they don't really eat much but they do nibble it/make nests etc and it gives them something to do), mealworms, kitchen scraps, koi pellets (again, random but low fat, mid level protein, easily digested).

Our mice get fed an almost identical diet with a few extra seeds in and are kept in either all plastic hamster cages or large tubs. I don't keep anything in more than 1:2 groups. 

The multi's are in glass tanks in 1:1 pairs. 

Good luck in your venture I wish you well, just don't expect to make a penny from it, it's a serious labour of love. We've got upwards of 50 reptiles and the rodents take more maintenance and looking after than they do!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

kingball said:


> can somebody post links to some decent cages for rats thanks


Depends on what sized group you're looking at. Here's a few of the ones I've got...

Baffy 120 - I have 3-5 in each section but it comes as one big cage (gaps in the bases for rats to get to each level, we blocked these off). This has 1" bar spacing so is only suitable for adult/large bucks (over 450g):
Essegi Small Pet Cage Baffy 120 3-storied - Great deals at zooplus

Tommy T2 or T3 - we have a T3 but are only using the bottom two sections of it. The bottom sections are larger than the top one (as the base sits inside them) so when you remove the top cage, the second one down is actually quite a bit bigger. We have 3 bucks in each section, but you could go to 4. Again - it has large bar spacing, so only suitable for bucks (unless you have whopping huge does!).
Small Pet Supplies » Tommy 82 T3 Pet Cage - Blue base

Ferplast Brio Maxi - I have about 8 girls in this, sometimes 9 or 10.
Ferplast Brio Maxi Bird Aviary & Accessories : Aviaries

Critter 3 - suitable for up to 6/7 rats (likewise, the smaller Critter 2 will house up to 4 rats - the Critter 1 however is only suitable as a hospital cage or oldies cage for a pair at most).
The Pet Express - Critter 3 Cage - £69.99 - Small Animals - Cages

Freddy - suitable for 3 rats, makes a great kitten cage for when the babies are split from mum:
Savic Hamster Cages | Hamster Cages | Cages Hamsters

We have just picked up one of these which we're told is suitable for up to 6 rats (but tbh, we have 8 elderly girls in it at the moment until their aviary arrives - it wouldn't be any good for that many young does long term)...
Savic Rat Cage Freddy 2 Max | Net Pet Shop

Ferplast Mary - what we use for nursing mums and their young babies up to 4-5 weeks (and depending on litter size, sometimes up til rehoming):
Great Deals on Small Pet Cages at Zooplus: Hamster Cage Mary

There's a few ideas for you. Must add I've not used those sites (other than Zooplus) or paid those prices, most of my cages have come second hand, apart from the Baffy, and that was on special offer when I bought it (I think it is at the moment too).


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## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Depends on what sized group you're looking at. Here's a few of the ones I've got...
> 
> Baffy 120 - I have 3-5 in each section but it comes as one big cage (gaps in the bases for rats to get to each level, we blocked these off). This has 1" bar spacing so is only suitable for adult/large bucks (over 450g):
> Essegi Small Pet Cage Baffy 120 3-storied - Great deals at zooplus
> ...




thats great i have gone for the top one they look fab what age is best to start breeding rats thanks


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If they're from solid lines with a long history of good temperament/health from a good breeder (eg not pet shop/feeder lines), does should be at least 5 months, bucks at least 6-8 months. I'd wait til 10-12 months with the buck if you're not absolutely sure of the lines though, as that'll give you chance to see what his temperament is like during his hormonal patch.

So it's probably best to start asking breeders for bucks first, then in a few months get your girls.


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## RCTLisa (Sep 18, 2008)

A note for those of you who breed for pets - be very, very careful. I got "attacked" by the local council for breeding and they wanted me to pay and register as a pet shop as I was breeding "pets" but because I show my rats I don't have to register. If you breed for pet only, you may well be required to register and I can tell you it is VERY expenisve. You do need to prove to them that you show and that you breed show quality animals, and you home the excess "stock" out to pet/show homes.


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