# Tarantula Venom.



## Eyelashviper (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi,

This is a question upon their venom strengths and contents, and you guys are pretty scientific and specific so...

From reading various sources I understand that T's are predominantly harmless to humans, and it is not possible to suffer an anaphylactic shock from a tarantula envenomation, due to their venom structure, of course this could well be incorrect information as I am finding it hard to find any substance, certainly online to back this up.

If the above is a true fact, how would the venom react on someone whom has cardiovascular issues, for example if their sinus rhythm was out of synchrony?

Is it possible a 'pet' tarantula could inflict a simple bite which could lead to a cardiac arrest, and ultimately death?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

Eyelashviper said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is a question upon their venom strengths and contents, and you guys are pretty scientific and specific so...
> 
> ...


I'm sure that it's very possible if you look at some of the old world spiders, but if your looking for a 'pet' spider then i would suggest going for something along the lines of a Brachypelma sp which aren't harmfull to humans


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

I would also like to know this : victory:


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> I'm sure that it's very possible if you look at some of the old world spiders, but if your looking for a 'pet' spider then i would suggest going for something along the lines of a Brachypelma sp which aren't harmfull to humans


Would i still be right in thinking taking a bite off an AF P.Regalis could be very dangerous?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

Jb1432 said:


> I thought that pretty much anything from the Poecilotheria genus and Selenocosmia genus were very dangerous?



The Poecilotheria genus are meant to have nasty bites on them that might require medical attention in the worse case scenario, and are probaly one of the T's that are classed as having a very 'dodgy' venom, along with a few African T's. The Selencosmia are said to be fatal to dogs and cats but i've never heard of any storys of humans nearly dying from them. 

Basically if you're worried about being bitten because of the effects of the T venom then i wouldn't keep any Asian, African or Australian T's.


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> The Poecilotheria genus are meant to have nasty bites on them that might require medical attention in the worse case scenario, and are probaly one of the T's that are classed as having a very 'dodgy' venom, along with a few African T's. The Selencosmia are said to be fatal to dogs and cats but i've never heard of any storys of humans nearly dying from them.
> 
> Basically if you're worried about being bitten because of the effects of the T venom then i wouldn't keep any Asian, African or Australian T's.


Im not worried, just wary. I have in my possession a 10inch P.Regalis which i am wary of and keep my distance when cleaning out etc.


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## sp1d8r (Feb 16, 2010)

Jb1432 said:


> Im not worried, just wary. I have in my possession a 10inch P.Regalis which i am wary of and keep my distance when cleaning out etc.


 
Just right too as they move like greased lightning :lol2:. As far as I'm aware, people are not as prone to anaphylaxis with arachnid venom as they are with bee and wasp venom, as majority of insect venom is made up from formic acid. A healthy adult humans immune system can usually fight off the advances of _Poecilotheria _venom and and other Old world species. A child, or un-well human on the other hand may well develop complications when envenomated.: victory:


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## Eyelashviper (Dec 20, 2009)

Thank you for your replies guys.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Stromatopelma calceatum (feather leg baboon spider) venom has been known to cause cardiac arrhythmia and is reputedly one of the strongest venoms of the theraphosids, obviously not including funnel webs, mouse spiders, etc.
I would certainly think that since this spider is kept by many people, you have a candidate for a pet species that could cause cardiac arrest if a pre-existing condition was aggravated.
After some extensive trawling I've found a report I read a few years ago. This isn't mine and is copied here exactly as it appears on the arachnoboards forum:

_"This is posted here without permission, taken from Exothermae Magazine no.1 "Poecilotheria". It is out of print and I have not seen it available anywhere. It is posted here for the information regarding Stromatopelmiinae envenomation. It is here because I have no way of contacting the editer Phillip Charpentier to request permission. I feel the reports presented are valuable to those keeping this species. If there is an issue concerning this reproduction, then this post will be removed promptly and willingly by myself or the moderators.

_Copyright Exothermae Publications
Duinenweg 453, 8430 Middelkerke Belgium

Stromatopelma Bites 

Man's culture here is responsible for a form of co-habitation that is not as endearing as co-habitation with Avicularia in South America. And if the occasional bites of the well-known "pink-toes" is never more than a pin-prick, the savage bites of Stromatopelma are all the opposite. Portrait of the most fearsome West-African Theraphosid: Stromatopelma calceata griseipes.

Over its whole range, Stromatopelma's inhabiting commercial palm trees cause a large number of accidents amongst the peoples climbing the palm tree for a daily living.

In sierra Leone, the Limbe people are notorious for both their production and consumption of the pouyou - palm wine - the national drink of the country. In all the areas where I worked on Stromatopelma, I was involved with Limbe people, because they are the most agile climbers...and they know in which part of the tree the spiders live. In normal life, however, they locate the spiders in order to _avoid_ them. In all these Limbe communities in the bush, all elderly palm-wine cutters had been bitten several times. Thirty year old tree owners had almost all been bitten at least once. Upon the single collecting trip I had, 9 people were bitten - tribute to the irascible temper of the "pigeon spider".

The first accident involved a freshly recruited (and paid) climber who worked his way up the tree - much to my horror - without belting himself like they would in Guinea or Guinea Bissau. The man was followed attentively by two colleagues who watched him reach the crown of the tree. the "hunter" exclaimed that he'd found the nest he was talking about, slipped his hand underneath the frond and was immediately bitten once in the palm of the hand. Since he hadn't belted himself and he was forty feet high, he couldn't let go of the palm frond and was bitten a second time in the hand.
The man immediately came down the tree, without the spider, and was tended at once with an Aspivenin extractor. Pain spread very quickly to his elbow, then to his shoulder and chest area. After 3 1/2 hours, , he had heart contractions that were extremely painful and lasted for a full half hour, a thoroughly nerve-racking experience since we were miles away from any civilisation. I visited the man the next day and the day after, and after the second day, his hand had swollen to twice its normal size: seconday infection. I treated it at once with a course of Bactrim.

The second bite occured in the same circumstances three days later, but the unfortunate helper was savagely bitten on the arm. The consequences were identical to the first accident, if slightly less pronunciated and with a slower venom-spread.

Two days later, a keen and experienced climber who owned the overpopulated tree of Masuba was bitten on the left foot when he climbed his tree, when he had lodged his foot in a crevice of the bark scales. The man kicked at the spider, flicking it downwards ten inches... and the spider(a nice, large female), charged back up the tree and bit him a second time.

The most serious accident to occur involved an obtrusive soldier who wanted to show how well he could climb a palm tree and his colleague. The soldier had found a nest a few days before and brought along a relatively dumb-witted colleague for this foray in the bush. The tree was a fairly big one, about fifty feet tall, and, in traditional Sierra Leonean style, the soldier just "walked up" the tree without anything like a belt or a rope for haul-ups.

Arriving at the crown, he quickly located the nest. Equipped with a glove and a pair of tweezers, he'd forgotten his collecting cup down the tree with his colleague and decided the foolhardiest thing he could possibly devise: he would catch and hold it in a glove. This could have worked for any terrestrial species, but certainly not up a fifty foot palm tree in the middle of nowhere. Micheal (the soldier) opened the palm frond and was met by the female with spread legs and fangs. He coaxed her outwards with the tweezers while holding his hand open to catch her with the glove, but the female dashed forward, lightning-fast, ran across his glove, bit him in the arm above the glove's edge and jumped off.
To my complete horror, the other soldier was waiting down the tree, right beneath the crown, and was looking upwards when Micheal started yelling after being bitten and we saw the female come floating down, legs entirely spread. Instead of running, the soldier just kept staring and the Stromatopelma landed on the side of his face, darted forward and game him a nasty bite in the middle of the neck. The spider was captured by my niece while the Aspivenin pump was brought out. If Michael ran no risks from an arm bite, as bad as it might have been - the other guy was visibly very scared and it hurt a lot. I am sure that, without the immediate intervention of a primed and ready venom extraction kit, this young fellow might well have died. His throat was swollen and the pain radiated to his face, optical nerves, chest with heart contractions starting less than two hours after the bite, with the pain spreading downwards to his gonads..... a most horrible place to feel that kind of pain.
The heart contractions ceased after another hour and forty minutes. The aspivenin kit had been used within 40 seconds and was used for forty minutes, no doubt bruising the area around the bite. I tried to reassure the victim as best I could, and was relieved to hear him say that the pain was receding...six hours and a half after the bite had been inflicted. 
In later days, the soldier was off-duty for a week, and when I left he still complained that his neck and throat area sometimes felt slightly painful.

.......

Although I would consider death as almost impossible, bites in certain areas of the body (like the described neck-bite) or in persons with a faulty heart could be extremely dangerous. Stromatopelma is the link between the relatively harmless mass of Theraphosids, and the few species that can be life-threatening to man. It certainly isn't a species that is to be neglected in case of serious bites, and it has to be considered as venomous since it does cause systemic distress that follows a particular pattern and always involves problems with the heart. Stromatopelma should be reserved for the serious worker."

Hope that was of some interest.
Dave


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## Eyelashviper (Dec 20, 2009)

Wow.

Excellent read Dave, thank you.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Extremely interesting Dave!!!

:2thumb:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Glad you liked it. I couldn't for the life of me remember where I saw the article originally so I've been searching for the bloody thing all weekend.


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## DRD (Nov 12, 2008)

For me T bites are fairly bad, being anaphylactic.

I have recieved a couple of bites and they have done a bit of damage, one bite from a cobalt blue tarantula, this caused extreme pain, swelling, bruising, along with anaphylactic shock made things a nightmare. Vomiting, dizzyness and ultimatlely fainted as i over heated.

this is my little part.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

I'd say bites from pretty much any of members of the old world subfamilys are not to be taken lightly despite the very low risk of a healthy adult dieing.

Now days bite reports are not uncommon but unfortunately back in the pre net days (the 80's early half of the 90's) many had a cavalier attitude to the bites of all theraposids and not everyone was so believing back then when you had a lot of conflicting word of mouth. 

At least now days we have a great tool in the net to inform and educate, Oh and post vid's of handing pokies ect, win one lose one I guess :lol2:


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

all tarantulas have venom but very week venom, some react to it some dont, like bee stings in a way.: victory:


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

Hi Dave

That was an interesting article, did make me chuckle in some parts. I find it concering how the author seemed relieved when he mentions _"The heart contractions ceased after another hour and forty minutes" _Normally when contractions stop it's of some :gasp: concern LOL. I presume he/she was trying to describe 'palpitations'. Is that the full article?


Cheers

John


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

DRD said:


> For me T bites are fairly bad, being anaphylactic.
> 
> I have recieved a couple of bites and they have done a bit of damage, one bite from a cobalt blue tarantula, this caused extreme pain, swelling, bruising, along with anaphylactic shock made things a nightmare. Vomiting, dizzyness and ultimatlely fainted as i over heated.
> 
> this is my little part.


 thats quite extereme, god.


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## DRD (Nov 12, 2008)

STReptiles said:


> thats quite extereme, god.


yep! im much more careful around handling venomous inverts, most of the time i keep them as display animals, the cobalt blue wasnt even mine i was looking after it for a friend. i was changing the water and it ran out of the hide and nailed me!


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## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

> The man kicked at the spider, flicking it downwards ten inches... and the spider(a nice, large female), charged back up the tree and bit him a second time.


Is that normal!? For a spider to actively "chase" someone to bite it again. I always assumed they would run away, perhaps "guard" their territory but not run back and attack again!


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

DRD said:


> yep! im much more careful around handling venomous inverts, most of the time i keep them as display animals, the cobalt blue wasnt even mine i was looking after it for a friend. i was changing the water and it ran out of the hide and nailed me!


 nasty, i dont like them at all, they have some nasty looking weaponry too.


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

Elsa said:


> Is that normal!? For a spider to actively "chase" someone to bite it again. I always assumed they would run away, perhaps "guard" their territory but not run back and attack again!


 yeh ive heard of spiders chasing before, nutters!


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## DRD (Nov 12, 2008)

STReptiles said:


> nasty, i dont like them at all, they have some nasty looking weaponry too.


Yep and thats the last time im looking after that bloody T :lol2:


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

DRD said:


> Yep and thats the last time im looking after that bloody T :lol2:


 lol, they have nevr interested me tbh and i dont think they ever will


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## DRD (Nov 12, 2008)

STReptiles said:


> lol, they have nevr interested me tbh and i dont think they ever will


i love them lol, got 34 T's atm along with scorpions etc. but the majority of them stay in their tanks!!!!


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## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

STReptiles said:


> yeh ive heard of spiders chasing before, nutters!


I have to admit that bit made me smile though, just the image of a spider being kicked, thinking "oh you bastard, you're not gonna get away with that one..." and the shock of the person who got bitten twice


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## STReptiles (Feb 6, 2009)

Elsa said:


> I have to admit that bit made me smile though, just the image of a spider being kicked, thinking "oh you bastard, you're not gonna get away with that one..." and the shock of the person who got bitten twice


 i'd be freaked right out if it bit me once ran off then came back for more lol


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

STReptiles said:


> all tarantulas have venom but very week venom, some react to it some dont, like bee stings in a way.: victory:


Bee venom (and that of most insects iirc) is mostly larger proteins compared to that of most (all?) spiders which is smaller peptides and so therefore more allergenic then say a theraposid bite, of course anyone can die from bee stings if they get stung enough times allergic reaction or not.

I would agree even old world theraposids have very weak venom relative to say most or all front fanged snakes, but that said pain and swelling of a bite site is one thing but systemic symptoms such as muscle spasms lasting days or weeks after the bite would indicate caution is needed.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

It always makes me smile when people liken the bite of a Tarantula to a bee or wasp sting. Without getting into the length of the protein chains or other aspects of venom composition, just look at the fangs. Find me a bee with something that size hanging out of its butt and then I'll agree, but until then, as someone who's been both bitten by a tarantula and stung by a wasp, trust me, they're different. Very.
I was bitten by a cobalt blue. The initial bite was memorably painful, and the punctures bled freely for 4 1/2 hours, indicating anticoagulants being present. I lost the use of my left arm for around 8 hours. This was accompanied by nausea, extreme headaches, and hypersensitization of the affected arm. Numbness in the bitten hand persisted for around a week. 
Now, allow me to describe all 3 of my wasp stings..... It hurt a bit then went off.
See my point. Even without discussing the systematics of hymenopteran and arachnid venom biochemistry, there are fundamental differences.
Dave


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Oderus said:


> I'd say bites from pretty much any of members of the old world subfamilys are not to be taken lightly despite the very low risk of a healthy adult dieing.
> 
> Now days bite reports are not uncommon but unfortunately back in the pre net days (the 80's early half of the 90's) many had a cavalier attitude to the bites of all theraposids and not everyone was so believing back then when you had a lot of conflicting word of mouth.
> 
> At least now days we have a great tool in the net to inform and educate, Oh and post vid's of handing pokies ect, win one lose one I guess :lol2:


Never a truer word spoken mate. Every bit of what you said.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> That was an interesting article, did make me chuckle in some parts. I find it concering how the author seemed relieved when he mentions _"The heart contractions ceased after another hour and forty minutes" _Normally when contractions stop it's of some :gasp: concern LOL. I presume he/she was trying to describe 'palpitations'. Is that the full article?
> 
> ...


Hi John,
Well spotted mate! I'm sure the author meant the irregularities stopped after the stated time. I sincerely hope he did anyway. Like you say, if the heart stops contracting this isn't normally received as good news.
Not sure if this is the full article, but it's all I have managed to find. The original post is on another forum and I posted it exactly as it appeared. I think the original poster said the journal it appeared in is now out of print, so I'm not sure if it'd be easy to find the article in its original form. 
Take it easy bud
Dave


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