# loose substrate for bearded dragons?



## elliotuk (Jan 1, 2012)

I was wondering what the general consensus is on loose substrate in this forum?

I used to use beech wood chips but a year ago i changed to reptile cage carpet because my vet told me he often gets beardie's in that were knocking on death's door because they had wood chips stuck inside them. I was doing a search in this forum though and a lot of people seem to be using beech wood chips and even sand as substrate.

What are most bearded dragon keepers in this forum using then? Those that are using loose substrate are you litterally just throwing the feeder insects in to the viv and letting the beardie eat them off the substrate? and have had no problems with impaction?


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Ingsting substrate is of little to no consequence provided that your bearded dragon is properly heated and hydrated.

Many people use loose substrates for beardeds and many use non-particulate substates. It basically boils down to what you are comfortable with. Personally, I feel a properly set up bio-active substrate is the best to use for most species of reptile. It promotes natural behaviors that you will not see on news paper and has proven to be a must with certain species. I think natural bio-active substrates will eventually become the norm for most species in captivity.


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## regtuck (Oct 7, 2012)

My beardie is 3 years old. My setup has half the vivarium with ceramic tiles, the other half with playsand. The tiles are for her waterbowl, food bowl and where she poops most of the time. The playsand is for her to dig when she needs to, usually when she is starting brumation she will be trying to burrow down to make a safe haven for herself, and when she is ready to lay eggs, so I know when to put her in a laying box. Live foods are hand fed for locusts and bowls for dubia and worms.
Hope this helps. Reg


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## Sami051290 (Nov 26, 2012)

I use beech chippings, my beardies spit it out if they accidentally get any in there mouths and to be honest, my male beardie isn't exactly the smartest so I was shocked to see him spit it out. I was expecting to have to get it out of his mouth for him but no, little man proved me wrong (thankfully). I also think beech chippings keep my vivs smelling nice and fresh - Anybody else found that or is that just me personally?
I did use sand the once but hated it. I've vowed never to use it again.
I also used cage carpet for a while and it seemed to hold smells - Even after I washed it. Again, can't decide whether all cage carpets are like it or if I just got a bad one

My honest advice would be to try different things and use what you and your beardies seem most comfortable with


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Yeah I gotta say;

Many people moan and even insult people who use sand, like the bearded enclosure in our house, as a substrate because they think impaction is almost a definite thing...Which is rubbish.

Our dragon has lived on sand quite happily for the past 6 months, since he was a baby and has had 0 health problems.

Like I always say, keeping it as natural as possible is best for ANY animal...Although sand may not be considered the 'Norm' for dragons, sand does share the same conponets as the their natural substrate, which is hard dried earth/soil.

Except the hard dried soil they naturally live on is riddled with small rocks that can be easily ingested...Sand is not...It is much finer and easier to pass than the natural alternative.

And yet Dragons still thrive in the wild!

I cant re-call people following these dragons around placing tiles underneath them in the wild, so why do it in captivity?

The actual fact is, tiles are BAD for dragons as no grip is provided and damge to ligaments caused by a constant struggle with balance occurs so iv read.

As stated above, aslong as husbandry skills are adaquete in keeping the dragon, loose substarte is fine...Especially when you feed with tongs like we do..



(Did you know crocodiles dilebratly eat rocks in the wild to help with digestion?)


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## elliotuk (Jan 1, 2012)

Ieuan7 said:


> Yeah I gotta say;
> 
> Yeah I gotta say;
> 
> ...


you tong feed your dragon? My dragon lost all it's hunting skills because I hand fed it for ages, now it only eats from my hand and wont catch them itself....i asked my local reptile shop owner about this and he said you should never hand feed reptiles (other than occasionally) and that I had spoilt my dragon as a result 

He said he's also lost many beardies when he first started out from sand impaction, never from beech chips though which he now uses.

So I am surprised to hear all this.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

beech chips are a no no. They harbour so much bacteria and if accidentally ingested WILL cause problems.
It shouldn't be if you're against loose substrates or not, it should be what is natural for the animal.
Sand isn't natural for them, or not play sand anyway, they simply haven't evolved the feet to walk on it properly.
They come areas with baked floors with loose substrate sprinkled on top from being worn down. Below the level of baked earth is sand like substance, which is infact damp and provides them with humid burrows.
Now if we want to talk natural then you'll need a good 12 inches of substrate, this is what the monitor keepers do, the bottom layers are damp and as you gradually dig up it gets drier because of the heat lamp. The best way is to use a sand soil mix and then have some of that excavator sand product on top.
Now I know for a fact no bearded dragon keeper is going to bother with this because it doesn't stick to the 4x2x2 minimum everyone states but its worth it as it keeps your animal hydrated, gives them enrichment which stop them digging at the glass and is just natural for them.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

elliotuk said:


> you tong feed your dragon? My dragon lost all it's hunting skills because I hand fed it for ages, now it only eats from my hand and wont catch them itself....i asked my local reptile shop owner about this and he said you should never hand feed reptiles (other than occasionally) and that I had spoilt my dragon as a result
> 
> He said he's also lost many beardies when he first started out from sand impaction, never from beech chips though which he now uses.
> 
> So I am surprised to hear all this.


I feed him crickets via tongs if he is in his enclosure mate.

He has a food bowl for veg and worms.

--

And the person who has lost babies on sand due to impaction was not taking care of them properly mate, as said above, with the right conditions sand is easily passedeven for a youngster.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> beech chips are a no no. They harbour so much bacteria and if accidentally ingested WILL cause problems.
> It shouldn't be if you're against loose substrates or not, it should be what is natural for the animal.
> Sand isn't natural for them, or not play sand anyway, they simply haven't evolved the feet to walk on it properly.
> They come areas with baked floors with loose substrate sprinkled on top from being worn down. Below the level of baked earth is sand like substance, which is infact damp and provides them with humid burrows.
> ...


Yes I agree with the wood chippings, I can see how they would cause serious problems.

I think the best substrate to use is slate 'tiles' instead of the commonly used bathroom wall tiles.

The slate provides much better grip with its rugged'ness and hold heat well and provides a natural SAFE basking rock...It looks real nice aswell!


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> Yes I agree with the wood chippings, I can see how they would cause serious problems.
> 
> I think the best substrate to use is slate 'tiles' instead of the commonly used bathroom wall tiles.
> 
> The slate provides much better grip with its rugged'ness and hold heat well and provides a natural SAFE basking rock...It looks real nice aswell!


I actually disagree that slate tiles make a good basking spot, they're flat so the heat energy hits it almost evenly making the basking temperatures even, the best methods are uneven so provide a wide range of temperatures for the dragon to choose from.

Slate substrates also don't allow for humid substrate to retreat too.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> I actually disagree that slate tiles make a good basking spot, they're flat so the heat energy hits it almost evenly making the basking temperatures even, the best methods are uneven so provide a wide range of temperatures for the dragon to choose from.
> 
> Slate substrates also don't allow for humid substrate to retreat too.


But than can be achieved by how close to basking spot the dragon sits.


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## Reptile Stef (Apr 13, 2011)

regtuck said:


> My beardie is 3 years old. My setup has half the vivarium with ceramic tiles, the other half with playsand. The tiles are for her waterbowl, food bowl and where she poops most of the time. The playsand is for her to dig when she needs to, usually when she is starting brumation she will be trying to burrow down to make a safe haven for herself, and when she is ready to lay eggs, so I know when to put her in a laying box. Live foods are hand fed for locusts and bowls for dubia and worms.
> Hope this helps. Reg


Exactly the same as my rankins enclosure tiles for water and food dish and sand to play in.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Reptile Stef said:


> Exactly the same as my rankins enclosure tiles for water and food dish and sand to play in.
> 
> image


Thats a really nice looking set-up mate, bet the lizards chuffed!


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## Reptile Stef (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks mate.
Yeah they love it always exploring.
I did put a post up yesterday saying whether or not I've put to much stuff in there but the replies I got was how nice and natural it looked and that I should leave it all in there. 

:2thumb:


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## Lizard_Lady (Jul 12, 2008)

Ieuan7 said:


> Yeah I gotta say;
> 
> Many people moan and even insult people who use sand, like the bearded enclosure in our house, as a substrate because they think impaction is almost a definite thing...Which is rubbish.
> 
> ...



Impaction problems from sand often do not become noticable for a couple of years. Also beech chips have been known to be swallowed and get lodged in the gut. Beech chips are primarily meant for use with snakes.

The dragons that are now kept in captivity are so far removed from the 'wild' ones that this is not a suitable argument for the use of sand!

I would NEVER recommend feeding with tongs! This prevents the lizard from his natural instinct to be able to hunt his own food!

There are lots of different substrates that are suitable for beardies - aspen, hemp, cage carpet to name a few.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> But than can be achieved by how close to basking spot the dragon sits.


Not really sure what you mean by this but I can guarantee if your basking spot is flat you're not providing an adequate gradient.



Reptile Stef said:


> Exactly the same as my rankins enclosure tiles for water and food dish and sand to play in.
> 
> image


If that was my setup id swap the heat bulb to the other end, those branches would be a much more suitable basking spot than that rock that provides little to no gradient compared to the logs.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Lizard_Lady said:


> Impaction problems from sand often do not become noticable for a couple of years. Also beech chips have been known to be swallowed and get lodged in the gut. Beech chips are primarily meant for use with snakes.
> 
> The dragons that are now kept in captivity are so far removed from the 'wild' ones that this is not a suitable argument for the use of sand!
> 
> ...


You have your opinions that i respect. But i dont see a problem with sand aslong as the owner has common sense.

How are they different? They are the same animal, with the same traits and personnality only they are more a-custom to humans after training.

and we feed with tongs while he is in the cage. He mainly eats greens and worms that sit nicely in his food bowl, he hunts crickets and locusts on the carpet, away from sand...Thats where the common sense comes in..Its a shame others dont share it, impaction due to sand would be stomped out no doubt.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> Not really sure what you mean by this but I can guarantee if your basking spot is flat you're not providing an adequate gradient.
> 
> 
> 
> If that was my setup id swap the heat bulb to the other end, those branches would be a much more suitable basking spot than that rock that provides little to no gradient compared to the logs.


Well if the lizard is too hot it wont position directly under the bulb.

If it wants to be hot, it will sit directly under it in the brightest lit area, as is in their nature. Bright spots on the land indicate warmth.

But i see what you mean...My water dragon has a tall branch under his bulb, the higher he is, the hotter he is, the lower the colder etc. But both are fine.

My Water dragon occasionally raids the turtle tank's basking spot when he is on free roam because of the light :lol2:


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## GeorgiaAndJayFuzz (Jan 27, 2013)

Everyone is going to have different opinions. 

I got slated not so long ago for stating my jouvies where on loose substrate. Everyone has different opinions and different experience for each, and because so many people have different opinions it all gets confusing.

For me tiles, and reptile carpet are out of the equation as my beardies dig.
Because of that sand is out for me aswell, I don't want either of them with a sand particle in their eyes.
They where on a dark wood chip, now they are on a beech wood chip (due to my girl only having one eye) 
I prefer the wood chip, especially when they are shedding their skin, mine pull themselves across the viv on their bellies to relieve the itchy skin!
It's all by what u prefer, and more importantly what ur beardie prefers.

So each to their own. I stuck by the bloke I got my babies off, and to be honest, I'm glad I did!


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## tremerz97 (Nov 30, 2012)

I Cba to read the whole thread but I don't see much problem in using play sand? Along as you husbandry is correct then the risk of impactation is very low. Beech chips are quite dangerous though as they are fair sized chunks and can rip their insides as it is passing through the gut. I use sand in my b.d's Vivs with no problems 
Mike


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Yeah you will never find a straight answer 

So, What have we learned today kids?

-Sand is ok should proper husbandry be provided.
-Feeding via tongs constantly can lead to a lazy ass dragon.
-Slate tiles dont provide a 'gradient' for basking
-And tremerz97 is too lazy to read the whole convo
:lol2:


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## tremerz97 (Nov 30, 2012)

Ieuan7 said:


> Yeah you will never find a straight answer
> 
> So, What have we learned today kids?
> 
> ...


indeed I am. lol. and don't feed with tongs or else u will have a dragon ike me lol


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

tremerz97 said:


> indeed I am. lol. and don't feed with tongs or else u will have a dragon ike me lol


Ahah duely noted friend


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## Kuja (Dec 14, 2011)

Ieuan7 said:


> Yeah you will never find a straight answer
> 
> So, What have we learned today kids?
> 
> ...


Made me smile that, although as far as topics go *SUCCESS*! 

its nice to see threads going more down the 'husbandry is subjective' approach, and not the usual everything is deadly the only answer is paper towels(id hate having to digest that recycled crap tbh)

Now i wonder if there is a specific reason why beardie keepers don't keep their dragons on soil/sand, i mean im guilty of it but it makes sense as far as substrates go, im still searching for something which bakes hard on the top and is soft and slightly humid in the middle but hard enough to keep tunnels. Don't suppose a badly cooked sponge cake will work hm.

I has a plan, need a bigger viv first though lol.

As for op(have read this thread unsure if i replied mind..), impaction from substrates is minimal i have been on this forum for a while now and not once has someone posted with anything which is actually impaction its always worried its impaction with the normal replies. 

I kept mine on playsand and rough rock like tiles for ages(reptile carpet before but god that stuff was awful). I had a hard area in the middle with sand either end and the tiles were on sand it worked quite well but...

...He stopped eating lol so i cleaned it all up and for whatever reason he restarted eating. Then again i wouldn't want to hunt on sand unless my feet were meant too, so maybe i had too much sand who knows. Now on rough lino and rough tiles but obviously looking into alternatives.

Personally the only substrate i would avoid is beach chips for the reasons others have stated(And the fact they look awful lmao)

Hopefully there will be a surge in substrates and different bugs as time goes on, but thats being hopeful the monitor people got the right idea thats for sure.


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## tremerz97 (Nov 30, 2012)

If your looking for overlooked sponge cake I'll get my mum to bake one :lol2: but very well put. There is no perfect substrate! People go overboard with impactation risks :bash: 
Mike


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## Thewelshdragon (Sep 6, 2009)

Straight up news paper and tiles . Job done . Not the prettiest but job done.


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## tremerz97 (Nov 30, 2012)

Thewelshdragon said:


> Straight up news paper and tiles . Job done . Not the prettiest but job done.


umm no. the ink from news paper can be toxic to the rep. but slate is good. but newspape looks tacky


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