# Psammophis - anyone else keep?



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi guys

Ventured in here to ask for a bit of advice.

I've just rehomed a beautiful, healthy _Psammophis. _I'm pretty sure its _aegyptius_ (maybe one of you guys can confirm?)

I've put him/her/it in a 4long x 1.5deep x 2high (plus shelf) with paper/beech chip bedding and hides all over. I've also added a moss/damp hide to cover my bases a little.

She has a ceramic on a pulse and strip lighting and is currently running at around 80F cool end, 90F warm and about 96F under the ceramic on the basking shelf (where she has been since I introduced her!).

She is currently eating small mice (although missed her last feed) - obviously info from previous owner as she's only been here an hour!

Can't find a great deal of info and was wondering if I could utilise the expertise on her to make sure she is 100% comfortable.

I'm hoping this will be a good old fashioned sharing of knowledge and not a 
heap of posts questioning why I rehomed it if I don't now how to look after it, or if I'm aware that they are venomous and recently removed from the DWA etc etc!:whistling2:


(I'm posting the same on the normal snake forum as well to make sure I cover all my bases!)


A couple of pics I took when I first met her




















Thanks in advance

Cheers

Andy


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Pics from this evening

Settling in










Not exactly 'shying away'!










Close-up!










Cheers

Andy


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Are these Colubrids?

Whats the toxicity of their venom etc?

I will Wiki it, but Wikipedia doesn't tell you everything.


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## Rikki (Mar 27, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> Are these Colubrids?
> 
> Whats the toxicity of their venom etc?
> 
> I will Wiki it, but Wikipedia doesn't tell you everything.


Yeah they are colubrids...no idea about the venom but i know at least one _Psammophis _sp. has a virtually redundant venom delivery system.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Rikki said:


> Yeah they are colubrids...no idea about the venom but i know at least one _Psammophis _sp. has a virtually redundant venom delivery system.


If they used to be DWA, Then the venom must be pretty potent I imagine.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Not a great deal of solid stuff on the net about that paticula Genus....Some stuff popped up on Wiki, but nowt special....Still looking..Never heard of these before :banghead:


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## Alway's Royals & Leo's (May 18, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> If they used to be DWA, Then the venom must be pretty potent I imagine.


Well, you would think not, or else it would not of been removed from the DWA list....


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Alway's Royals & Leo's said:


> Well, you would think not, or else it would not of been removed from the DWA list....


 
Its probably not concidered dangerous enough for the DWA List.

But, we don't know that...So I am going on the assumption of it wasn't dangerous enough for the DWA list.


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## leeh1985 (Dec 6, 2006)

Hi bothrops

Not kept them personally myself but have had a look for you whilst I was surfing the net and came across this link which has a little bit of infor on care not a great deal but hope it helps.

Hope this helps.
Venomdoc Forums :: View topic - Psammophis sibilans

Also looking at pictures I would say that this one looks like a psammophis sibilans to me but I may be wrong - http://itgmv1.fzk.de/www/itg/uetz/herp/photos/Psammophis_sibilans_female.jpg

http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology...?p=14507&sid=43a23f84eb9d2a5047c5ed755c6e5ef1


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

lhreptiles said:


> Hi bothrops
> 
> Not kept them personally myself but have had a look for you whilst I was surfing the net and came across this link which has a little bit of infor on care not a great deal but hope it helps.
> 
> ...


 
Bryan Fry is the man! H'ell be able to answer prettymuch anything. (NO disrespect to the other experts on here, ofcourse as you all give some very good information)


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## leeh1985 (Dec 6, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> Bryan Fry is the man! H'ell be able to answer prettymuch anything. (NO disrespect to the other experts on here, ofcourse as you all give some very good information)



It might have been an idea to have mentioned that in your first post rather than say you have search wiki but the info wasnt very good.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

lhreptiles said:


> It might have been an idea to have mentioned that in your first post rather than say you have search wiki but the info wasnt very good.


 
I completely forgot about his Venomdoc forum untill you posted, it re-reminded me


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

lhreptiles said:


> Hi bothrops
> 
> Not kept them personally myself but have had a look for you whilst I was surfing the net and came across this link which has a little bit of infor on care not a great deal but hope it helps.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link mate - and I absolutely agree, checked again this morning and it is indeed _P sibilans_ !



ViperLover said:


> Not a great deal of solid stuff on the net about that paticula Genus....Some stuff popped up on Wiki, but nowt special....Still looking..Never heard of these before :banghead:


No disrespect mate, but I didn't really ask for someone to search Wikipedia for me for information!

I am after the expertise of people who have kept these species before and have inimate knowledge of there captive husbandry. I am not a novice keeper and certainly don't expect people to regurge wiki at me! - I'm not having a go, feel free to google away to your hearts content and suck up as much information as you want (in fact that is absolutely the way forward) but please don't then post it here as if you have an in depth knowledge of the subject (which I'm assuming if you _had_ found something on 'wiki' that you would have done?)



Cheers


Andy


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Thanks for the link mate - and I absolutely agree, checked again this morning and it is indeed _P sibilans_ !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I had never heard of the species, or the Genus for that matter so I wanted to know more.

The information on it is poor...No disrespect to you either mate, You are more experienced then me.

I'll PM you in a sec, I have something to discuss in confidence. Cheers!

JM


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

bothrops said:


> No disrespect mate, but I didn't really ask for someone to search Wikipedia for me for information!
> 
> I am after the expertise of people who have kept these species before and have inimate knowledge of there captive husbandry. I am not a novice keeper and certainly don't expect people to regurge wiki at me! - I'm not having a go, feel free to google away to your hearts content and suck up as much information as you want (in fact that is absolutely the way forward) but please don't then post it here as if you have an in depth knowledge of the subject (which I'm assuming if you _had_ found something on 'wiki' that you would have done?)
> Cheers
> Andy


 
mg::roll2::roll2::roll2::roll2:

Eloquently put Andy!

This topic has blessed me with a sig quote for the first time since Shaun the REPTAREXPERT :whistling2:


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> mg::roll2::roll2::roll2::roll2:
> 
> Eloquently put Andy!
> 
> This topic has blessed me with a sig quote for the first time since Shaun the REPTAREXPERT :whistling2:


 
LOL You used my quote!!

I never even heard of the Genus and ssp.....I wanted to learn more.

I will ask Dr. Fry, will hit him up with a message on FB....I really wonna know about these animals. All I know is they are called "Sand Racers" LOL


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> LOL You used my quote!!
> 
> I never even heard of the Genus and ssp.....I wanted to learn more.
> 
> I will ask Dr. Fry, will hit him up with a message on FB....I really wonna know about these animals. All I know is they are called "Sand Racers" LOL


It wasn't a compliment


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

The Psammophis genus is well represented here.

Firstly, their venom is underrated. I was bit by one a few years ago, and the swelling was intense.
Secondly, your set up looks great. They do not house well together, and since they are reptile feeders, you may be a cage mate short in due time. I only put them together for breeding purposes. I would just suggest giving it a little bit of a spray near shedding time.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

As to i.d. the best is to do a scale count.
This is a large genus, and many of them look very similar.


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## leeh1985 (Dec 6, 2006)

bothrops said:


> Thanks for the link mate - and I absolutely agree, checked again this morning and it is indeed _P sibilans_ !


 

No worries Andy, Not an easy specie to find info on.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Owzy said:


> It wasn't a compliment


 
Please take you're sarcastic remarks elsewhere, Owzy. Thankyou.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

mad martin said:


> The Psammophis genus is well represented here.
> 
> Firstly, their venom is underrated. I was bit by one a few years ago, and the swelling was intense.
> Secondly, your set up looks great. They do not house well together, and since they are reptile feeders, you may be a cage mate short in due time. I only put them together for breeding purposes. I would just suggest giving it a little bit of a spray near shedding time.


Thanks for the info. I've only the one at the moment and as a rule I house ALL of my snakes individually (even adult, same sex corns and boas). I will be looking for a mate at some stage, but will keep them seperately except for the bit that they kinda need to be together for!: victory:

I can't get over this little guy/girl! It's only been with me for a day or so and it is fast becoming a bit of a favourite! It is very active during the day, completely alert and on the ball, following every bit of movement with interest. It is also rediculously quick!

As for the venom, I have no intention of finding out how potent it is - I will be treating this little one as if it is a full blown 'hot' (except for the license etc).

Cheers

Andy


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Thanks for the info. I've only the one at the moment and as a rule I house ALL of my snakes individually (even adult, same sex corns and boas). I will be looking for a mate at some stage, but will keep them seperately except for the bit that they kinda need to be together for!: victory:
> 
> I can't get over this little guy/girl! It's only been with me for a day or so and it is fast becoming a bit of a favourite! It is very active during the day, completely alert and on the ball, following every bit of movement with interest. It is also rediculously quick!
> 
> ...


 
Always a good idea.

Do you keep Venomous aswell, Andy? (DWA)

Cheers.
JM


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

They are damn fast as a rule, but the quickest of them all is Psammophis subtaeniatus (Western Stripe-bellied Sand Snake). That thing feeds on lightning 
Personally, they are always amongst my favourites to keep. Simply because they are always busy doing something


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> Please take you're sarcastic remarks elsewhere, Owzy. Thankyou.


Owzy wasn't being sarcastic. He was right, it wasn't a compliment...


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Always a good idea.
> 
> Do you keep Venomous aswell, Andy? (DWA)
> 
> ...


Andy is toxic enough already

James do you go school? just wondering as your always seen to be on here late at night and day time...but would have thought you would have been at school during the day


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> Andy is toxic enough already
> 
> James do you go school? just wondering as your always seen to be on here late at night and day time...but would have thought you would have been at school during the day


 
College....Came home early today, I fealt ill.


I am doing an ICT Course for one year....Hence why I have access to a computer. 


And please don't start about "If you want to be a Herpetologist, ICT won't help you blah blah blah..." I understand...I wasnt sure exactly what I wanted to do at the time, and now I have made the decision.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> College....Came home early today, I fealt ill.
> 
> 
> I am doing an ICT Course for one year....Hence why I have access to a computer.
> ...


seems everyone wants to be a herpetologist these days


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> And please don't start about "If you want to be a Herpetologist, ICT won't help you blah blah blah..." I understand...I wasnt sure exactly what I wanted to do at the time, and now I have made the decision.


Nah, ICT won't help you be a herpetologist... but it might just get you a day job, since there are precious few jobs out there for herpetologists, and most of those are full of people who are already herpetologists (some of whom you've quite cheerfully been alienating on threads like this one). More jobs out there for someone who can use a computer than there are for people who know how to use a dichotomous key to identify species of _Sceloporus_.

Every time I have done a reptile presentation (on a volunteer basis) for a school, someone asks whether doing "that sort of thing for a living" pays well. They always seem shocked when I say "Actually, I'm doing this for free with my pets because I genuinely think it's a worthwhile thing to do; I *work *in web design and today's my day off."

Bothrops, that's a gorgeous snake - my apologies that I don't have any experience of the species to contribute with, but I felt that the above needed to be said in response to Viperlover's comment.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

I am very interested in Herpetology.

And I would like to contibute to it in the future.

Andy, sorry for clogging you're thread.


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> College....Came home early today, I fealt ill.
> 
> 
> I am doing an ICT Course for one year....Hence why I have access to a computer.
> ...


Sorry James but you say you've always liked snakes and wanted to be a herper yet you didn't know what you wanted to do when school started again in September?

More and more it is sounding like this is something you've seen on TV, thought to yourself that looks cool and now have decided you want to keep venomous/be a herpatologist. 

Like a good percentage of keepers on here at the moment, this is a faze, you'll grow out of it soon and move on to the next thing. 

It's a shame you didn't take on board the advice I gave you.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

abandonallhope said:


> Sorry James but you say you've always liked snakes and wanted to be a herper yet you didn't know what you wanted to do when school started again in September?
> 
> More and more it is sounding like this is something you've seen on TV, thought to yourself that looks cool and now have decided you want to keep venomous/be a herpatologist.
> 
> ...


I did..

I want to become a Herpetologist...But I was stuck for career choice last year.


I am seeing my College Careers Adviser next week to discuss it.

I'm heading to the pet shop tomorrow to have a look at some of their collection, see what they got etc. I want to gain some experience before I move onto other animals such as Rat snakes. Don't get me wrong, Kings are awesome.


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> I did..
> 
> I want to become a Herpetologist...But I was stuck for career choice last year.
> 
> ...


You do realise that the most recommended snake for beginners is a rat snake _ssp_ don't you? It seems you have done no research on species that you should be gaining experience with.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> I want to gain some experience before I move onto other animals such as Rat snakes.


Why on earth would you need extra experience before owning a corn snake (AKA "Red Rat Snake") ?

Ok, ok, that's unfair. Saying "ratsnake" is rather like saying "carnivorous mammal" - not all of them are particularly closely related, not all of them are the easy-care ideal-starter species.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

kelboy said:


> You do realise that the most recommended snake for beginners is a rat snake _ssp_ don't you? It seems you have done no research on species that you should be gaining experience with.


 
I thought the most reccomended was corn snakes, and king snakes?

What rat snake is most reccomended? Ive heard rat snakes can be very agressive, I dont want an overly agressive ssp to learn from.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Why on earth would you need extra experience before owning a corn snake (AKA "Red Rat Snake") ?
> 
> Ok, ok, that's unfair. Saying "ratsnake" is rather like saying "carnivorous mammal" - not all of them are particularly closely related, not all of them are the easy-care ideal-starter species.


 

Ahhh...Now I see.

I was reffering to the more, lets say agressive ssp of Rat snakes.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> I thought the most reccomended was corn snakes, and king snakes?
> 
> What rat snake is most reccomended? Ive heard rat snakes can be very agressive, I dont want an overly agressive ssp to learn from.


Rat snakes I would personally recommend as a FIRST snake:

A well-handled yearling Red rat snake (AKA "corn snakes" - a corn snake is a TYPE of ratsnake)
A well-handled yearling CB_ Pantherophis obsoletus_ (any subspecies or cross)
A well-handled yearling CB Great Plains Rat Snake
A well-handled yearling CB Slowinskii's Rat Snake
A well-handled yearling CB Russian Rat Snake
A well-handled yearling CB Baird's Rat Snake

Yes, some INDIVIDUAL _Pantherophis guttatus_, _Pantherophis obsoletus_, etc... can be nasty (Texas rat snakes have a largely undeserved reputation for nastiness; the boy who lives in my front room is one of the nicest snakes to handle you could ask for.. and I have a line of corns that routinely throws animals who believe they're homozygous hate from day one) and conversely, some of the animals with BAD reputations - like _Coelognathus radiata_, the Radiated Ratsnake - have individuals who are nothing like their typical reputation (I have an albino Radiated who, again, is the nicest snake you could ever ask to hold).


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Rat snakes I would personally recommend as a FIRST snake:
> 
> A well-handled yearling Red rat snake (AKA "corn snakes" - a corn snake is a TYPE of ratsnake)
> A well-handled yearling CB_ Pantherophis obsoletus_ (any subspecies or cross)
> ...


Is the Slowinskii's rat snake also known as Slowinskii's corn snake? Or is it another _ssp_ named in his honour?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Yes, Slowinskii's ratsnake is also known as a Slowinski corn or Kisatchie corn. Because I've got a pair of them, I really don't like calling them corns - they look a lot more like _P. obsoletus_ than _P. guttatus_.


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Yes, Slowinskii's ratsnake is also known as a Slowinski corn or Kisatchie corn. Because I've got a pair of them, I really don't like calling them corns - they look a lot more like _P. obsoletus_ than _P. guttatus_.


Thanks for that. How commonly available are they? I've only ever seen one pair for sale.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Not amazingly common over here. My pair may breed in 2011.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> I am very interested in Herpetology.
> 
> And I would like to contibute to it in the future.


I think most people are interested in it that keep reptiles.....you can contribute by simply dispelling the untrue myths and fears of reptiles



ViperLover said:


> I did..
> 
> I want to become a Herpetologist...But I was stuck for career choice last year.


You say you want to be one but do you know what it actually envolves. Keeping and breeding snakes isnt actually a herpetologist as such


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Not amazingly common over here. My pair may breed in 2011.


All being well I'll be in IL by then! I had a look on Google, is it right they're only found in AK? You can see why they were thought to be a corn/great plains intergrade, very nice looking snakes.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> Keeping and breeding snakes isnt actually a herpetologist as such


 
Did I ever say it was? :whistling2:


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Guys, I must admit, this could've been a great thread. But now its actually just annoying. I understand everyone's frustration, but let's try to stick to the topic please 

No offence intended


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> Guys, I must admit, this could've been a great thread. But now its actually just annoying. I understand everyone's frustration, but let's try to stick to the topic please
> 
> No offence intended


 
Well said..

Sorry to everyone.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

I have many field pictures of various species in this family. I will put them up later


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I don't even think Slowinskii's look that much like Emoryi - when I first saw my pair, I thought the female looked like a young black ratsnake.

They can be found in Texas and Louisiana, and to my knowledge aren't found in Arkansas.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Nah, ICT won't help you be a herpetologist... but it might just get you a day job, since there are precious few jobs out there for herpetologists, and most of those are full of people who are already herpetologists (some of whom you've quite cheerfully been alienating on threads like this one). More jobs out there for someone who can use a computer than *there are for people who know how to use a dichotomous key to identify species of Sceloporus.*.


..I'm very fortunate that not only am I able to use one, but I get paid to teach people how to use one.....well, amongst other things.....and not necessarily _Sceloporus_ but plenty of less specific keys.......



Ssthisto said:


> Every time I have done a reptile presentation (on a volunteer basis) for a school, someone asks whether doing "that sort of thing for a living" pays well. They always seem shocked when I say "Actually, I'm doing this for free with my pets because I genuinely think it's a worthwhile thing to do; I *work *in web design and today's my day off.".


...again, I'm in the very fortunate position to be able to say, during the day job...."you know what, this powerpoint can only teach you so much, lets go down the animal unit and play with some snakes/lemurs/wallabies/goats/parrots/rabbits.....etc"....

...however, I'm certainly not on an average IT workers wage! 




Ssthisto said:


> Bothrops, that's a gorgeous snake - my apologies that I don't have any experience of the species to contribute with, but I felt that the above needed to be said in response to Viperlover's comment.


Thank you Ssthisto - I'm over the moon with the animal and really keen for another already!


Cheers

Andy


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

bothrops said:


> ...again, I'm in the very fortunate position to be able to say, during the day job...."you know what, this powerpoint can only teach you so much, lets go down the animal unit and play with some snakes/lemurs/wallabies/goats/parrots/rabbits.....etc"....
> 
> ...however, I'm certainly not on an average IT workers wage!


Neither are a lot of average IT workers, if you get right down to it... big-city wages are a heck of a lot different to small-town ones and muck up the averages. I only wish I got teaching-staff wages!

For that matter, I wish I could say "This user's manual will only teach you so much. How about we take a break and play with the leopard gecko under my desk" more often!


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## Stoats (Apr 22, 2009)

bothrops said:


> .
> ...again, I'm in the very fortunate position to be able to say, during the day job...."you know what, this powerpoint can only teach you so much, lets go down the animal unit and play with some snakes/lemurs/wallabies/goats/parrots/rabbits.....etc"....


Hang on, you have lemurs where you work? You lucky git! :whistling2:

Thats a beautiful snake you hae there, and it looks like it has a great vivarium; its always interesting to see unusual snakes

Myself, I feel lucky to be typing this one-handed with a boa curled around my other arm! :notworthy:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Stoats said:


> Hang on, you have lemurs where you work? You lucky git! :whistling2:
> 
> Thats a beautiful snake you hae there, and it looks like it has a great vivarium; its always interesting to see unusual snakes
> 
> Myself, I feel lucky to be typing this one-handed with a boa curled around my other arm! :notworthy:


Yep - ring tails, red ruffed and blacks. We also have capuchin, cotton-topped tamarins, pygmy and Geoffroys marmosets, mara, alpalca, raccoon dogs, meerkats, many bird species, a very well stocked herp room, an aquarium, a nocturnal room (Sebae's and Egyptian fruit bats, kinkajou and gennet...) and many other bits and pieces......


....I just wish I got to spend more time with them than I do! Still consider myself pretty fortunate though!


Cheers

Andy


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

Stoats said:


> Hang on, you have lemurs where you work? You lucky git! :whistling2:
> 
> Thats a beautiful snake you hae there, and it looks like it has a great vivarium; its always interesting to see unusual snakes
> 
> Myself, I feel lucky to be typing this one-handed with a boa curled around my other arm! :notworthy:


you would think he is some over active mad bugger wouldnt you.....when here came here he just rambled on about genetics and played with my python


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

wildlifewarrior said:


> you would think he is some over active mad bugger wouldnt you.....when here came here he just rambled on about genetics and played with my python


 
*resists urge to get involved in 'python' gags!*


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> you would think he is some over active mad bugger wouldnt you.....when here came here he just rambled on about genetics and played with my python


Whatever sexual urges you may have, please save them for a PM...hahahaha  :lol2:


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Whatever sexual urges you may have, please save them for a PM...hahahaha  :lol2:


you want me to pm you my sexual urges? how very odd



bothrops said:


> *resists urge to get involved in 'python' gags!*


python...gags......

must also resist


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> you want me to pm you my sexual urges? how very odd
> 
> 
> python...gags......
> ...


 
LOL....Funny guy.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

wildlifewarrior said:


> python...gags......
> 
> must also resist


 
:blush:.......I did think when I posted it..... I could have used 'jokes'....'puns',......'innuendos'....'slurs'.....but no,....I HAD to go with the one word that in itselfs is a bloody sexual innuendo.....dammit:devil:


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

bothrops said:


> :blush:.......I did think when I posted it..... I could have used 'jokes'....'puns',......'innuendos'....'slurs'.....but no,....I HAD to go with the one word that in itselfs is a bloody sexual innuendo.....dammit:devil:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> LOL....Funny guy.


Strangely James, most people actually think so.....:whistling2:

You seem to have a natural talent for alienating all of the people who could be of use to you in later life! :2thumb:

BTW.... nice snake Andy!


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## Rikki (Mar 27, 2007)

I'm not too sure about the diet of_P. Sibilans_, but I have witnessed an adult _P. phillipsi_ attempting to consume a juvenile _Naja nigricollis_. So if you could get hold of a few of them...:lol2:

also James, If you're referring to other species when you put ssp., this isn't right! It's stressing me out! Sorry!


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey just came across this Preloved | very rare short snouted grass snake for sale in Wisbech, Cambs, UK thought you guys might be interested


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

spend_day said:


> Hey just came across this Preloved | very rare short snouted grass snake for sale in Wisbech, Cambs, UK thought you guys might be interested


Hehehe - someone who has access should send him a link to this thread - I'm sure it's not the first in the country for 20 years:whistling2:


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Bryan Fry is the man! H'ell be able to answer prettymuch anything. (NO disrespect to the other experts on here, ofcourse as you all give some very good information)


Yes agreed Viperlover, well on herp related matters because things like...:
--------------------- 
Faith can't be put in a test tube. Thats why it shouldn't be put in a science classroom. 
--------------------- 
Faith (noun). Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence 
Science (noun). The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.

...really gets on my nerves. Faith is ALL about proof ), and so too is science. And if anyone wants a private discussion then please be my guest :2thumb:

Right I'm sorry MadMartin as I DO agree with you, soooo back to the thread which is why I came here.

That snake is absolutely BEAUTIFUL. Wow, I'd never seen one before myself. More pics more pics required!! THANKS.

PS I'm not saying the enthusiasm of youth doesn't strike a chord at times but please remember also that we all make mistake in words and we all grow as persons...into adulthood. Well unless I'm in the pub anyway LOL.


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Fantastic snakes the psammophis, I'm currently waiting on eggs in the incubator.
Very cheeky, not usually that inclined to bite but will thrash around in the hand. Big teeth, two sets of fangs on top one set on the bottom jaw. When they twist the jaw in a certain way then the main venom fangs do push forward a fair bit. Give them a nice hotspot and keep them warm. Dont generally keep them on sand, usually something like aspen or cyprus mulch is fine.


























Mike


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Maffy,

I rephrase what I said...

Bryan Fry *AND *Wolfgang Wuster are the people when it comes to Herp related Science.

The pair, argueably between them are the best toxicologists & Herpetologists in the world, some say BGF is better, others say WW...In my opinion they are on Par with eachother, and are extremely good sources for information and research with their outstanding amount of field experience, and their amazing photography combined with their analysis in the Lab. Without either of those two men, the Herp community worldwide would have a massive hole in it.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Maffy,
> 
> I rephrase what I said...
> 
> ...


The RFUK community seems to have a massive 'hole' in it......:whistling2:


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*THAT snake*

Viperlover, never doubted herp credentials for a second - thats what counts on this forum :2thumb: - enthusiasm, knowledge, understanding and practical wisdom through experience.

Besides I'm familiar with their most learned herp experience through a lot of avid reading I do. Actually I first spotted Wuster long ago on account of his photography. Beautiful, colourful and most perfect capture.

Anyway all this is sidetracking.

Looks like I better read up on this species. What beautiful colouration. Can see colubrid shape etc. 

Has anyone else got any further pics please?

most appreciated, thanks.
maffy


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Maffy,
> 
> I rephrase what I said...
> 
> ...


Both these men are personal friends of mine and I don’t just mean guys on my face-book “friends” list.
By singling out these two names you are ignoring / unaware of the fact that there are dozens of equally skilled men who you will probably never get to hear of because they stay well away from reptile forums.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

PDR said:


> Both these men are personal friends of mine and I don’t just mean guys on my face-book “friends” list.
> By singling out these two names you are ignoring / unaware of the fact that there are dozens of equally skilled men who you will probably never get to hear of because they stay well away from reptile forums.


 
Indeed....But I think these two gentleman have done more research on venomous reptiles, then just about anybody else. They are the best IMO.

Ofcourse you are going to have other people are who equally as skilled to stay off of the forums, but those individuals choose to stay off of the forums. I think it's good that such people like Dr. Fry and Dr. Wuster, and yourself use these forums to give advise to newcomers, and to continue to advise and educate the experienced so as this hobby/professional and science can be learned upon, and studied further in years to come.

My greatest respects to any Herpetologist...anybody who studys Herps infact....they are all a part of a growing community and without such people, the Herp community would not be as advanced as it is today as nothing would be known about it.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

maffy said:


> Yes agreed Viperlover, well on herp related matters because things like...:
> ---------------------
> Faith can't be put in a test tube. Thats why it shouldn't be put in a science classroom.
> ---------------------
> ...


 
I'll come back to the 'Faith is all about proof' thing when I'm less busy and more able to give the discussion its just desserts (for now, I'll just say - you're mad man, completely cuckoo, it is the exact antithesis of proof!)....

...and say, thanks for the compliments - she is stunning! Can't wait to get her (?) a mate...which brings me to my next quote.....



masticophis said:


> Fantastic snakes the psammophis, I'm currently waiting on eggs in the incubator.
> Very cheeky, not usually that inclined to bite but will thrash around in the hand. Big teeth, two sets of fangs on top one set on the bottom jaw. When they twist the jaw in a certain way then the main venom fangs do push forward a fair bit. Give them a nice hotspot and keep them warm. Dont generally keep them on sand, usually something like aspen or cyprus mulch is fine.
> 
> image
> ...


Thanks for the info - and the highly informative pics! Always good to know what they are packing. I know what you mean about the thrashing - when I picked her up from her previous owner I made the mistake of saying the immortal words of 'it's OK, I've got her!'. Lets just say, its a good job the door was closed, floor was clear, we had hooks and bags ready and it wasn't a mamba!.

I've got her on beech chips at the mo, but she has spent all her time in her 'hot' hide directly under the heat lamp on the top shelf (no substrate). The viv is quite large and has a good number of hides and large heat gradients.

Loving the shot of the eggs - congrats on that! Is that a male round the eggs or the female? Are they sexually dimorphic or is that just a different colour phase? Please keep me posted if you are successful at hatching them and getting them feeding, i'll be* very* interested in taking a mate for mine off you.

Thanks again for the pics and info!



Grond said:


> The RFUK community seems to have a massive 'hole' in it......:whistling2:


I see what you did there:whistling2:....... (LMAO!)



Cheers

Andy


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

> Indeed....But I think these two gentleman have done more research on venomous reptiles, then just about anybody else


James, its time to start reading books as opposed to the 'net. Do yourself a favour and search Donald Broadley. To give you an idea, he has described around 100 species and has 12 named after him.

He is but one of many many researchers that have done an insane amount of work.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

As promised

Olive Whip Snake (Psammophis mossambicus)









Crossed Whip Snake (Psammophis crucifer)


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

mad martin said:


> As promised
> 
> Olive Whip Snake (Psammophis mossambicus)
> image
> ...


cheers Martin, much appreciated. Wicked lookin' snakes, love 'em.

Great colours and I'm not surprised they're super quick...they look like they wanna take on the 100metres!! :lol2:
Whip Snake - thats very apt. Had heard of these just didnt connect it with the scientific name.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> As promised
> 
> Olive Whip Snake (Psammophis mossambicus)
> image
> ...


 
Both of which rear fanged, venomous? - DWA?


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Cheers Maffy 

James, yes. I dunno about their DWA status, but all the members of Psammophis are rear fanged snakes.


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Baby Sibilans









Not sure which species










Elegans









Mike


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

masticophis said:


> Baby Sibilans
> image
> 
> Not sure which species
> ...


 
OK, I think I may have put a few things together here! - (those shelves and your location!) ....you will shortly be getting a pm!


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Bothrops*

hi Bothrops,

I posted my comments on here since Mr Fry's personal opinion was openly quoted through a link on here.

I wish to add that Mr Fry's thorough and excellent herp knowledge and experience is never in doubt. Furthermore we are all entitled to our personal opinions, I hope.

However, in fairness to me I did ask anyone who refuted my comments to privately message me so as not to clutter the forum with non-DWA/venomous related discussions... (which Mr Fry himself did not intend.)

I say these things as I went off tangent in a False Water Cobra article which you may find searching under FWC posts with my name). 

If reasoning serves someone correctly (and gradually it will everyone, according to science ) ) you should be able to still SEE all the missing links leading up to this one and other links in between. I do think what you will find though is the complete article. 

Many thanks and I respect your opinion. 

PS sorry about the gradually comment. Science...I think it was Einstein that said anything travelling at immense speed far beyond earth (lets say) wouldnt see time quite the same as we do. So, as an example, a 1,000 years would appear as a mere day to someone else.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

maffy said:


> hi Bothrops,
> 
> I posted my comments on here since Mr Fry's personal opinion was openly quoted through a link on here.
> 
> ...


 
Just to add my 2pence worth..if you are reffering to Bryan Fry...then it is infact "Dr. Fry"...It would be disrespectful to reffer to him as "Mr."...I understand you may of not knew that, but just thought that was needed. : victory:


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Just to add my 2pence worth..if you are reffering to Bryan Fry...then it is infact "Dr. Fry"...It would be disrespectful to reffer to him as "Mr."...*I understand you may of not knew that, but just thought that was needed.* : victory:


Due to your lack of respect for the English language, I'm going to say "f**k off!"


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

kelboy said:


> Due to your lack of respect for the English language, I'm going to say "f**k off!"


 
Excuse me?


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Excuse me?


Excuse you. Learn first. Write second. Good luck in your next year at school. : victory:


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

kelboy said:


> Excuse you. Learn first. Write second. Good luck in your next year at school. : victory:


 
In college...and cheers.


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

i see your truce lasted all of two weeks james


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## kelboy (Feb 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> In college...and cheers.


Bloody hell! I never made it that far, but my English is better than yours!... Even after 3 bottles of wine!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

maffy said:


> hi Bothrops,
> 
> I posted my comments on here since Mr Fry's personal opinion was openly quoted through a link on here.
> 
> ...


 
I hope I didn't come accross as 'upset' in my original reply to your post!?: victory:


I'm always up for a good science vs religion debate and that was a genuine offer of discussion at a later date - always enjoy a good debate - so hard to do on the open forum though as you always get idiots on 'your side' that spoil your arguements and counter points by coming up with 'and ya mom' comments!

I don't actually have any expereince of the Dr Fry quotes...will do a bit of research when I have the time!


S'all good:2thumb:

Cheers

Andy


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

paulrimmer69 said:


> i see your truce lasted all of two weeks james


If that


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

bothrops said:


> I hope I didn't come accross as 'upset' in my original reply to your post!?: victory:
> 
> S'all good:2thumb:
> 
> ...


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

To lighten up the thread again, some pics i just took.


























UPDATE... One egg just pipping now 

Mike


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Very nice!


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Politely*

Viperlover, you basically assumed that I'd disrespected the guy. I just forgot to put his Dr title instead of Mr. 

"Hey, the world is still spinning at its usual constant, whilst hurtling through space, following endlessly after the sun at a very marvellous speed"

:lol2:


So instead of wasting time "dissing" me, please go dismantle your watch, stick the contents in a bowl and go shake it about a bit until you can see the accuracy of logical words. LOL.


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## nitro (Dec 8, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> I did..
> 
> I want to become a Herpetologist...But I was stuck for career choice last year.
> 
> ...


i feel sorry for your adviser, he has no idea whats in store for him :blowup:


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

And today.....










Mike


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## [email protected] (Oct 22, 2008)

its soooo cute awww:flrt:


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