# Where am I going wrong with my roaches?



## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

So i started breeding Dubai cockroaches 12 months ago. after my first 6 month clean out I maintained numbers which was a disappointment. Then at around 7-8 months I realized I was loosing hundreds of babies as they couldn't get out of the tubs I put there food and water gel in. I have now solved that problem and they can all get out. I did a clean out today (which would be 12 months) and once again I am very disappointed. at the last 6 month clean out I had 134 adult females and 30 adult males (i killed some off to sort my ratios). After my clean out today I now have 88 Adult females and 41 adult males. I do appear to have have around 200/250 mixed younger sizes (which is more than what I had before) but these numbers are still no where near what they should be? Please could somebody help me where im going wrong.
They always have water gel and dry food, they are offer greens (rocket,lambs lettuce, little gem ect) every other day. They have egg crate stacked vertically covering 2/3 of the tub. The temps on the hot side are 35oc to about 30oc on the cooler end, and where the food and water tubs are that part is at room temperate.I haven't been feeding any roaches off at all.
Any help is much appreciated


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## tegrey2008 (Apr 25, 2010)

use oranges as they r like viagra and make sure they in the darkness both made a huge difference to me.


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

tegrey2008 said:


> use oranges as they r like viagra and make sure they in the darkness both made a huge difference to me.


I will give the oranges a go. I heard keeping them in the dark just nackers them out and they end up dieing a lot younger?


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## tegrey2008 (Apr 25, 2010)

i always been told to do them in the dark and it made a huge difference when i done it.


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

tegrey2008 said:


> i always been told to do them in the dark and it made a huge difference when i done it.


fair enough. What have I got to loose anyway!


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## lewkini (May 12, 2009)

I'd like to know how you can go 6 months without a clean:gasp:

My stink after 3/4 weeks :bash:


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

lewkini said:


> I'd like to know how you can go 6 months without a clean:gasp:
> 
> My stink after 3/4 weeks :bash:


to be honest I don't think it too bad at all, I do spot clean there tub every few weeks to remove all dead roaches, As the babies like to feed on the poo i don't feel the need to clean them out to regularly.
I have now blacked out the whole tub and hopefully this will help.


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## lewkini (May 12, 2009)

How do you remove the dead ones without lifting all the egg creates up to get the them?


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

lewkini said:


> How do you remove the dead ones without lifting all the egg creates up to get the them?


I do lift the egg crates up in one big go and move them to the other side of the tub.


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## lewkini (May 12, 2009)

Are yours tight in the rub or just loose?

are they like how the roach hut stack theres?


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

lewkini said:


> Are yours tight in the rub or just loose?
> 
> are they like how the roach hut stack theres?


they are just like how the roach hut stack theres, there tight enough to get all in one bunch but loose enough to be moved around.


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## lewkini (May 12, 2009)

I could move mine but I think roaches would be everywhere! Maybe I need a bigger rub lol cheers for your replys and good luck with the breeding:2thumb:


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

lewkini said:


> I could move mine but I think roaches would be everywhere! Maybe I need a bigger rub lol cheers for your replys and good luck with the breeding:2thumb:


Cheers mate, I will master the roach breeding one day!


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

As mentioned, they like it dark. That's likely your problem. I'm not sure where the weird comments about the dark making them tired have come from. You're the third person now who has said this, so someone is telling people bad information.


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

jarich said:


> As mentioned, they like it dark. That's likely your problem. I'm not sure where the weird comments about the dark making them tired have come from. You're the third person now who has said this, so someone is telling people bad information.


Yes thats fair enough. I have wrapped thick cardboard around the whole tub now and put cardboard over the lid (only loosely so not to interfere with the vents) Only time they are exposted to light is when I check on them to change food and water ect


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

I keep mine at 90 on my stat in a black tub... I feed oranges, I would remove the bug gel its not needed they will get all water they need from oranges


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

jarich said:


> As mentioned, they like it dark. That's likely your problem. I'm not sure where the weird comments about the dark making them tired have come from. You're the third person now who has said this, so someone is telling people bad information.


I think the theory goes that since they are a nocturnal animal, they may be overactive if they are permanently in the dark. The idea being that giving them daylight allows them to rest. 

I think it needs to be rememebered that around 12 years ago very few people were breeding these insects. I don't think anybody can say with any certainty what is the ideal way to keep them, because as far as I know, nobody is doing comparative trials. Personally I suspect that small amounts of light entering the box is harmless (say through the vented area of a lid for example), but I can see good reasons to avoid see through plastic boxes.


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## mr stroudy (Mar 11, 2008)

i use blue tinted boxes so they get a certain amount of light and mine seem to work well. i have been going about a month and had loads of babys already


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

DanYeomans said:


> So i started breeding Dubai cockroaches 12 months ago. after my first 6 month clean out I maintained numbers which was a disappointment. Then at around 7-8 months I realized I was loosing hundreds of babies as they couldn't get out of the tubs I put there food and water gel in. I have now solved that problem and they can all get out. I did a clean out today (which would be 12 months) and once again I am very disappointed. at the last 6 month clean out I had 134 adult females and 30 adult males (i killed some off to sort my ratios). After my clean out today I now have 88 Adult females and 41 adult males. I do appear to have have around 200/250 mixed younger sizes (which is more than what I had before) but these numbers are still no where near what they should be? Please could somebody help me where im going wrong.
> They always have water gel and dry food, they are offer greens (rocket,lambs lettuce, little gem ect) every other day. They have egg crate stacked vertically covering 2/3 of the tub. The temps on the hot side are 35oc to about 30oc on the cooler end, and where the food and water tubs are that part is at room temperate.I haven't been feeding any roaches off at all.
> Any help is much appreciated


I think where you're going wrong is with dry food and greens: Commercial dry insect food usually used for gut loading is an unnecessary expense. Dubia Roaches love fruit but are less fond of greens and can be fed bran. You would need to put bran in a pot to stop it getting moist and going mouldy but even so a change daily is advised. But all other food can just be placed on the bottom of the enclosure. It's not necessary to keep them in the dark all the time since they get a period of darkness overnight anyway and one assumes they don't live in an environment of total darkness 24/7 in the wild.

My set-up is an Exo Terra large Faunarium with cardboard egg trays inside and an 11 x 6 inch heat mat taped to the outside bottom at one end. Temperature control is a Mat-Stat set at 30c with the probe attached to the mat.

Food is apple with peel removed (some of them have paraffin wax on them), banana and bran, carrot ends and cabbage leaf. Really whatever the family is cooking and eating at the time. All food is changed daily. Fresh fruit and greens is washed in several changes of cold water to remove any insecticide.

I feed water gel in a pot but I use the dry crystals which are a lot cheaper in the long run: Try Livefoods Direct Solid Water Granules. But if they are getting a regular supply of moist fruit the chances are they won't touch it.

If we consider that a small colony of male and female adults can cost £50 it's worth looking after them.


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## ExoticInsectsUK (Nov 15, 2008)

So many answers and not one telling you why they did not breed:bash:
Dubias abort there oothecas if fruit is not in there diet. 
''No fruit no nymphs''​ The dark and light thing is rubbish in china people breed 200 thousand tonnes of roaches a year in the light and dark. both seem just as productive as the other.​ Most people have dark setups here as its darker in the UK, It also costs us money for light where as hotter sunny places get light for free. Windows let heat out here whereas there lets free heat in.​


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> So many answers and not one telling you why they did not breed:bash:
> Dubias abort there oothecas if fruit is not in there diet.
> ''No fruit no nymphs''​ The dark and light thing is rubbish in china people breed 200 thousand tonnes of roaches a year in the light and dark. both seem just as productive as the other.​ Most people have dark setups here as its darker in the UK, It also costs us money for light where as hotter sunny places get light for free. Windows let heat out here whereas there lets free heat in.​


Thankyou, are things like apples ok to feed them?


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## Dawson (Jun 8, 2008)

Yes they like apples, some people peel the apples first but i personally don't bother. They will eat most fruit and veg but tend to love citrus fruits like oranges.


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

I have given them half a apple. so if I feed them a mixture of greens and fruit (either apple or orange) it will help? Plan is to offer half a piece of fruit every 2 days and have greens available at same time?


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## Dawson (Jun 8, 2008)

DanYeomans said:


> I have given them half a apple. so if I feed them a mixture of greens and fruit (either apple or orange) it will help? Plan is to offer half a piece of fruit every 2 days and have greens available at same time?



Sounds like a good plan :2thumb: 

I would suggest that when replacing the fruit and veg you do it quickly as to minimize the time spent in the roach tub which will minimize the stress levels of your roaches, have 2 tubs and pre-prepare the fresh tub and simply switch them over.


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

Dawson said:


> Sounds like a good plan :2thumb:
> 
> I would suggest that when replacing the fruit and veg you do it quickly as to minimize the time spent in the roach tub which will minimize the stress levels of your roaches, have 2 tubs and pre-prepare the fresh tub and simply switch them over.


Thanks for the help


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## MSID (May 13, 2010)

Oranges are key in my experience, I have mine in a large tub, no heating but are on top of a viv, so not cold, bit of light in day through the sides of the tub and feed dried cat food and oranges. It has been providing the bulk of the food for 3 African bullfrogs for a couple of years. They breed like mad and there must be a thousand in there most of the time. I never bother about male female ratio, but do selectively feed out adult males until there is not many of them, just because they aren't needed to keep the colony productive.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> So many answers and not one telling you why they did not breed:bash:
> Dubias abort there oothecas if fruit is not in there diet.
> ''No fruit no nymphs''​ The dark and light thing is rubbish in china people breed 200 thousand tonnes of roaches a year in the light and dark. both seem just as productive as the other.​ Most people have dark setups here as its darker in the UK, It also costs us money for light where as hotter sunny places get light for free. Windows let heat out here whereas there lets free heat in.​


Id love to see some evidence of this. Its particularly interesting because Ive never fed mine fruit once and they've bred prolifically for years now. Of course roaches like fruit (sugar), but its either not necessary to have fruit for breeding or I have super roaches that should be worth loads of money. Since I have so many, maybe Im a millionaire and I just dont know it :lol2: Again, fruit is essentially sugar, and sugar is energy, so for a pregnant female competing with lots of other roaches, thats not a bad thing. Im not saying its a great study that proves anything, but here is a little sample of a short experiment that was done to test the old oranges hypothesis. Its shows that fruit is not needed.

http://www.frogforum.net/attachment...-ecology-study-blapticadubiaresearchessay.pdf

If anyone is interested in looking at the details of their diet a little more closely, this next link is one of the best research projects Ive seen on the specifics of their diet. Interestingly, it shows good evidence that they prefer a low protein diet (18%) over a higher protein diet (23%) when fat is not a factor. 

http://opus.ub.uni-bayreuth.de/frontdoor/deliver/index/docId/1252/file/Diss.+Alamer.pdf

However, this does bring up the point that a diet of just greens is probably not a good thing. Since youve added some fruit and other things, Im guessing it'll go well for you now though. Also, what is the dry diet you are feeding them Dan? 

As for the light and dark, ever noticed where roaches go when its light out? Yep, they hide somewhere dark. I assumed this usually meant better breeding. However, after further research, I will say that it doesnt appear to affect their breeding at all, so I seem to be wrong there. My apologies, but Im glad to have a guide for further research. 

And MSID, it might be a good idea to research your roaches diet a bit more. I know its easy to just use cat food (cat food is 30-40% protein, see above) and oranges, but it isnt a great diet for roaches and especially not for your reptiles/amphibians.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Dawson said:


> I would suggest that when replacing the fruit and veg you do it quickly as to minimize the time spent in the roach tub which will minimize the stress levels of your roaches, have 2 tubs and pre-prepare the fresh tub and simply switch them over.


My roaches must be totally stressed out then. Nervous wrecks. I don't use tubs or dishes for food either. Food is put on the floor. The only "dishes" in there are for solid water and bran and they are actually the caps off 2 litre milk containers.

Here's my simple set-up which I mentioned briefly earlier in this thread for my small colony to feed my two tarantulas: Exo Terra large Faunarium with the bottom trays from half dozen size egg boxes on their sides at one end and the other free end for food and water. This arrangement of the egg trays allows debris to fall to the bottom. So it's just a matter of cleaning the food end, pushing the egg trays to that end, cleaning out the dirty end and then using that for food and solid water.

The same arrangement can be done with a larger habitat such as a bin using the 30 egg size trays.

Food as mentioned earlier is fruit and bran.


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## DanYeomans (Jun 9, 2011)

I think the general opinion is mixed and it comes down to personal choice and preference. Some people say dark is good and light is bad others say light is good and dark is bad. some say feed fruit others say fruit isn't needed. I think it comes down to personal preferences and more importantly PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. If somethings working well for you why change it? a example is I am breeding locusts at the moment. people say you need high tubs for climbing however I have used shallow tubs (compared to other people) yet I have hundreds of locusts hatch. Some people will say my set up is completely wrong however as its working for me why change it. Obliviously what i'm doing with my roaches at the moment simply isn't working so I have made the 2 most suggested changes which is fruit and dark. Hopefully this will work for me however time will tell.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

DanYeomans said:


> I think the general opinion is mixed and it comes down to personal choice and preference. Some people say dark is good and light is bad others say light is good and dark is bad. some say feed fruit others say fruit isn't needed. I think it comes down to personal preferences and more importantly PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. If somethings working well for you why change it? a example is I am breeding locusts at the moment. people say you need high tubs for climbing however I have used shallow tubs (compared to other people) yet I have hundreds of locusts hatch. Some people will say my set up is completely wrong however as its working for me why change it. Obliviously what i'm doing with my roaches at the moment simply isn't working so I have made the 2 most suggested changes which is fruit and dark. Hopefully this will work for me however time will tell.


While I appreciate your desire to not have any disagreement, its not necessarily a bad thing to have them. There are certain things that are factual and they can be discovered/researched and discussed here. Its how we learn collectively. For instance, this discussion was what motivated me to research more and find out definitively that they dont breed any better when in darkness all the time as compared to being on a day/night cycle. Its how we know that cat food is a bad thing to feed them. The information is there for us to find, and through these collective discussions we are able to discern the solid information from the heresay and wives tales. Of course, there are some things that are simply up to keeper preferences, like the fruit, as these are roaches after all. You are right though, some things are best learned through personal experience : victory:


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

DanYeomans said:


> I think the general opinion is mixed and it comes down to personal choice and preference. Some people say dark is good and light is bad others say light is good and dark is bad. some say feed fruit others say fruit isn't needed. I think it comes down to personal preferences and more importantly PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. If somethings working well for you why change it? a example is I am breeding locusts at the moment. people say you need high tubs for climbing however I have used shallow tubs (compared to other people) yet I have hundreds of locusts hatch. Some people will say my set up is completely wrong however as its working for me why change it. Obliviously what i'm doing with my roaches at the moment simply isn't working so I have made the 2 most suggested changes which is fruit and dark. Hopefully this will work for me however time will tell.


But don't forget the two prime factors: Temperature 28-30 Centigrade and a relatively high humidity work together.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Another thought on the use of egg boxes or trays not covered yet.

I use the bottoms off half dozen size cardboard egg boxes and cut off the long spike which leaves holes so the roaches can get to other parts of the colony easily. I leave the sides on because it's then darker in there but you can cut them away to make trays if you want.

So this brings us to the use of egg trays and to my mind most of the youtube videos in this respect are erroneous. If you just put the egg trays together as is the only way for the roaches to get to other parts of the colony is to go via the outside. So if I was using egg trays I would cut holes in one or two of the cups in each tray.

The easier it is for the males to find the females the more successful breeding will be.

btw egg boxes and egg trays are sold on both ebay and Amazon pretty cheaply.


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## MSID (May 13, 2010)

jarich said:


> Id love to see some evidence of this. Its particularly interesting because Ive never fed mine fruit once and they've bred prolifically for years now. Of course roaches like fruit (sugar), but its either not necessary to have fruit for breeding or I have super roaches that should be worth loads of money. Since I have so many, maybe Im a millionaire and I just dont know it :lol2: Again, fruit is essentially sugar, and sugar is energy, so for a pregnant female competing with lots of other roaches, thats not a bad thing. Im not saying its a great study that proves anything, but here is a little sample of a short experiment that was done to test the old oranges hypothesis. Its shows that fruit is not needed.
> 
> http://www.frogforum.net/attachment...-ecology-study-blapticadubiaresearchessay.pdf
> 
> ...


Interesting, but the first report does not quite prove that oranges are not a good idea, it only uses a t-test on a very small data set to show there was no significant difference between numbers produced with or without oranges, it notes that they were more productive with oranges and that a larger study could well have shown a significant result. 
I can only state from experience that my colony seems more productive when I am using oranges, as to the cat food (33% protein), they eat very little of it, preferring the other veg I throw in now and then. I guess it comes down to what works, I like to keep my feeders as simply as possible and keep as much variety in my frogs diet as possible, the roaches are a good bulk part of the bullfrogs diet and they seem to be doing fine on it.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

A bit too scientific for me: I suspect that a lot of those who farm roaches to use as live food including myself feed oranges because the roaches like them and they are a good source of moisture. In my own experience the sugar liking aspect is somewhat squashed because up until Friday the dry food I was feeding was wheat bran which is sour. I'm giving roach food a go just to see what effect it will have. Also bran is becoming increasingly difficult to find where I live and even the Holland & Barrett stores where I live don't stock it. I think on average the roach food doubles up on protein compared with wheat bran so I'll see how it goes.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

MSID said:


> Interesting, but the first report does not quite prove that oranges are not a good idea, it only uses a t-test on a very small data set to show there was no significant difference between numbers produced with or without oranges, it notes that they were more productive with oranges and that a larger study could well have shown a significant result.
> I can only state from experience that my colony seems more productive when I am using oranges, as to the cat food (33% protein), they eat very little of it, preferring the other veg I throw in now and then. I guess it comes down to what works, I like to keep my feeders as simply as possible and keep as much variety in my frogs diet as possible, the roaches are a good bulk part of the bullfrogs diet and they seem to be doing fine on it.


Please read what I said a little more carefully. I did not say oranges were a bad idea at all, sort of the opposite. Oranges are fine in conjunction with other appropriate foods. I was merely using the study to show ExoticInsects that his statement that they don't reproduce without fruit was incorrect. 

As far as the cat food goes, my question would be, would you feed your frogs cat food? (I'll assume the answer is no) If not, then why gut load your roaches with it? Its the same thing. You say you give your frogs a good variety of foods, so why not extend that to their gut load? It's quite simple and inexpensive to give them a healthier gut load, so I'm not sure why people hang on to things like cat food. Again, I'm not saying it will kill your frogs, merely that if you look into it, you'll find much healthier gut loads that are just as simple and yet much better for your frogs.

And Spideypidey, look into wheat bran a bit more. If that's all your offering as a dry food then you're really loading your feeders with a low Ca ratio food. Sort of the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

jarich said:


> And Spideypidey, look into wheat bran a bit more. If that's all your offering as a dry food then you're really loading your feeders with a low Ca ratio food. Sort of the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.


Are you referring to gut-loading or the Dubia's nutritional needs? They have a softer exoskeleton and so don't need as much calcium. Wheat Bran has 4% calcium which is enough for their nutritional needs. I feed Tarantulas and unqualified reports state that an excess of Calcium could be harmful to them. Gut-loading prior to feeding is good for some species but as a staple I doubt very much. What is most important for Dubias is protein.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Spideypidey said:


> Are you referring to gut-loading or the Dubia's nutritional needs? They have a softer exoskeleton and so don't need as much calcium. Wheat Bran has 4% calcium which is enough for their nutritional needs. I feed Tarantulas and unqualified reports state that an excess of Calcium could be harmful to them. Gut-loading prior to feeding is good for some species but as a staple I doubt very much. What is most important for Dubias is protein.


I was referring to gut loading them. Wheat bran, while having some calcium, has a lot of phosphorous. Roaches dont nutritionally need much calcium, no (unlike crustaceans, their exoskeleton is made from long chain, tightly packed proteins, like chitin, not minerals like calcium) If you are feeding Ts then that is a little different. I made the wrong assumption that you were feeding reptiles/amphibians, who need at least a 1:1 Ca ratio, but preferably a 2:1 ratio. For reptiles/amphibians the gut loading is essential.


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