# Newbie Dart Frog build - 2nd attempt



## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first (2nd attempt) dart frog terrarium. Originally I wanted to incorporate a small waterfall feature to a shallow pond at the front (easy to drain), but the end result was the water still needing to sit higher with the hydroballs and the waterfall (as it was originally planned) being difficult to leak proof, ending up with the substrate being too moist for the plants I put in and turning the leaves brown. So, I decided I go full on, rip it all out for a completely natural look and start a fresh, with a false egg crate bottom this time and instead of the foam, silicone and substrate walls, I opted for Epiweb and Hygrolon. This is my build so far, so any comments, advice, errors spotted etc... most welcome! It's an exo terra 45x45x60, with a exo terra canopy running 2 x 23w 6700k bulbs. If this is too much, I have 2 x 14w I can replace them with? I also have a fogger ready to run (timer) and will be making modifications to the lid (acrylic and smaller SS mesh replacements for now) to control FF escape and humidity. I may go for a glass lid replacement drilled for the fogger and maybe a mister, plus small fan for air flow.

The first disaster...


My new build...





This is where I am up to now. The plan is to have mosses growing over the hygrolon and the epiweb coated in their own moss/seed mix with a drip wall on each side (on a timer). This will drain down into the false bottom and the front pond, thus moving the water through and back to the pump. I'm planning to only have a couple of plants planted in the substrate, one being a Philodendron Scandens and not sure about the other, plus a climber for the cork? The rest of the planting will be with the moss/seeds(bergonia/pepperomia) growing in on the walls and some neoregelia broms on the wood maybe one at the top area of the cork? I'd really like a couple of small ones and then a slightly larger one on the middle wood/cork as a centre piece? I don't want to take away too much space from the darts.
The wood will be foamed in to make it safe from falling and have patches of hygrolon added for mosses to grow in around the broms.

As for frogs, which is a long way off, I was hoping to add a pair of D. tinc "azureus" or "brasil". I did consider leucs, but felt that as they do better in groups, this isn't the right tank. I'm hoping to do a future 90x45x60-90, once this tank grows in and I have a little more experience under my belt. 
I also really love the Ranitomeya Varadero's. Well, I guess that's it for now. Again, any advice or comments to help a newbie, very much welcomed.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, what can I say?
You`ve impressed me with your efforts so far so well done.
Your first viv I don`t consider to be the disaster you maybe think it is, but I understand where your coming from.
You`ve found out the hard way why most of us don`t bother with waterfalls so I`ll not even speak about it.
You have clearly put a lot of thought into the rebuild and it does look like you might have more success 2nd time around.
I`m thinking your now wanting advice on the substrate and how to apply it.
Arcadia are out with a new amphibian specific substrate called Earth Mix which I`ve heard good reports on.
As you will know it won`t sit very well on the egg crate so we have to resolve that issue. But we also have the issue of keeping your water as free of dirt as possible to stop the pump from clogging up etc.
I would suggest getting some fine plastic mesh like what is used to shade greenhouses with holes as small as 1mm.
This would lie on the egg crate and help keep solids back, but there is still the issue of the finer particles so I would get hold of a fine mesh fabric to sit on top of the plastic mesh which would help to stop the finer particles of soil from dropping through under the egg crate, the plastic mesh is there mostly to add a bit of strength to stop the mesh fabric falling through the egg crate.
Then it would just be a case of building up the substrate and putting in some nice bits of bog wood and some plants.
I will agree on your thinking about the frogs, any of the Tincs should be fine in there.
To allow for lost ground area due to the pond create some higher levels for them to climb up onto as they will use this.


Mike


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## ItsExiled (Oct 24, 2011)

Looking good, interested to see how the hygrolon/epiweb takes off


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

Thank you! That makes me feel so much better knowing someone so experienced hasn't picked up any major problems.  I used the zoomed mesh this time around, as I used the weed type fabric from another seller on the first build, but I think that compounded the overly moist substrate. For substrate, I brought Dendrosoil, already seeded with springtails/woodlice, but how many of those little guys that will survive back in the bag, I don't know, so may have to re-seed when done and start a culture too. Thank you for the extra fabric tip, I'll dig out a piece of net curtain. 
This is the build as of today. I have added a small slate cave over the pond area to give an extra hiding spot and raise the front edge for substrate, which will be around 1" at the front sloping to 2" at the back (sides built up with small pieces of slate which will be unseen once finished). The wooden branch has been placed a bit higher and taking on board the creating of more ledges, I may use the expanding foam to block in the back of the branch against the cork, thus creating a platform, maybe also incorporating a pot for another plant other than the broms and moss. It will also create some shade below. 
I've been reading and researching loads, this build is probably going to be slower than other methods, but I know I'm going to get a lot of enjoyment watching the tank mature and grow out, so I don't mind. This way I hope not to make too many mistakes (like the waterfall) and can easily rectify them along the way... I hope!


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

ItsExiled said:


> Looking good, interested to see how the hygrolon/epiweb takes off


Thank you, me too! Fingers crossed it goes ok. My aim is to have a tank full of lush greens surrounding the wooden features. I may add some of the other Epiweb products, such as a planter each side to bulk out the background creating more interest and areas to explore/plant.


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

Hi and thank you for the responses. I did respond days ago, but think my posts are moderated and maybe something has gone wrong along the way!
I used the zoomed mesh on top of the egg crate, then some densely weaved net curtain fabric on top of that and so far, so good. For soil I used Dendrosoil seeded with spingtails and woodlice. Topped with Magnolia leaves. I painted the moss mix onto the Epiweb just under a week ago and each day I'm seeing more dots of green here and there, so fingers crossed!  At the moment the pump runs for 1 minute every two hours and off completely at night. From tomorrow I think I may run it continuously until the moss establishes well. I've added a piece of bog wood and a small slate cave at the pond to give an extra hiding spot but also to help build up and hold back the substrate. I have another piece of bog wood arriving soon to fit from the top left and down onto the other piece.
So far for plants, I have a Philodendron Scandens cutting placed in quite a lot of shade under the bog wood, but fingers crossed. I also have a Microsorum musicology 'crocodile fern' cutting which is currently placed on the cork bark. A Tillandsia Dyeriana pup is also acclamation in there along with a recovering Polypodium Formosanum which is throwing up new fronds as I type.
I've purchased some Anubia nana and nana petite, along with a Dracaena Firebrand and some creeping jenny (which I may not add yet), for around the water area.
This is where I've gotten to so far... the fogged is set to come on a few times a day for 15 minutes at a time.


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

I really have no clue what is going on, as I do know my posts are moderated, but I think whenever I try to respond via my kindle, my posts never appear. I'll try this time from my laptop.

Thank you for the comments and advice. I've come along a bit further since the last post. The epiweb has been coated with the moss mix just over a week now. I'm seeing dots and strands of green in various places all over and in the last couple days, I also have 3 seedlings that have popped up. Currently the drip wall runs every 2 hours and for 1 min, between the times of 10am-10pm. This seems to be doing an ok job of keeping the moss mix from drying out. My fogger comes on 3 times a day for 15 minutes a time, between the timings of the drip wall. This seems to keep the plants happy and does my misting job, but also allowing the higher plants to easily dry off the leaves before lights out. My lights are on from 10am to 10pm. I could probably get away with 9am to 11pm, but at the moment, this seems good.
I have foamed in the drift wood and a branch for bromeliads and a couple orchids (I hope) and coated a few places with more hygrolon. For the bottom I added a slate cave to help hold back the substrate and give an additional humid hiding hole, it also has a suva (sp?) pod hidden next to it on the right. The cave has been topped with hygrolon, which has been coated in some Kyoto moss spores. My thought being, it'd give the frogs a neat little open area if they wanted. I used Dendrosoil, so have a stock of springtails and isopods making 'house' in there.  The soil seems to do really well in this build, staying nicely moist, but not soggy at all and the plants are liking it much better! For planting, I have used cuttings/pieces from the mother plants. I have a couple each of anubias nana and nana petite, a small piece of calla lily, a dracaena firebrand (my favourite), creeping jenny, my polypodium formosanum which is recovering nicely and throwing up new fronds and some small pieces of japonica. Under the cave I have a cutting of philodendron scandans (I know these get big, but hope it'll cope with the low light and fill this space and I can pinch out grow/trim etc... there is also a marcgravia species climber growing up the cork bark through a gap in the drift wood.
Higher up, I don't have anything yet, bar a recovering pup from my tillandsia dyeriana. Not sure it will stay, I'll see how it does first before placing. I also have a crocodile fern. My plan now is to see how these plants go for the week and order some bromeliads and maybe a couple orchids next week. I included a couple pots on the driftwood for maybe another fern and something else. 
I still need to coat and secure the tubes that supply the drip wall and will complete that this weekend.

This is how it's looking now...


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## arran7225 (Dec 21, 2008)

Looks great  what moss mix do you use? and will it grow all over the tank on the sides etc ? 

Im looking for information on how to do this myself. i have an exo and would like it covered on all sides by moss


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It`s looking good so far.
Moss is a funny beast and can take months to grow so patience is needed.
It`s strange how your posts haven`t been showing as the mods would have no reason to interfere with them unless they were abusive to someone so to speak.
Be aware that foggers don`t do a lot for the system.
They produce a cold mist which could bring the viv temperatures down, so while that might be okay on a hot day I wouldn`t be using it too much.


Mike


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

arran7225 said:


> Looks great  what moss mix do you use? and will it grow all over the tank on the sides etc ?
> 
> Im looking for information on how to do this myself. i have an exo and would like it covered on all sides by moss


I have used some kyoto moss on the cave and sprinkled across the sides and also the Epiweb moss mix applied to the Epiweb. It is a very slow process which I was aware of, but I don't mind as I really want to enjoy watching it all grow in as well as making sure I'm keeping it just right, before I add any frogs. Patience is definitely needed I think!


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> It`s looking good so far.
> Moss is a funny beast and can take months to grow so patience is needed.
> It`s strange how your posts haven`t been showing as the mods would have no reason to interfere with them unless they were abusive to someone so to speak.
> Be aware that foggers don`t do a lot for the system.
> ...


Hi Mike

I think it was because I was moderated due to being a new member and the mods may have missed my posts or been too busy etc... I don't know, but I'm unmoderated now. 
I've been keeping an eye on the fogger, as I've been using it to mist the plants without saturating them. It's on 3 times a day, but I can cut this down? I've been monitoring temps and humidity constantly, as the viv is in the living room. The house is very well insulated and temperature controlled heating, so the viv drops to 70f at night and reaches 76f in the day time. The humidity stays at 89-91%, the latter when the fogger comes on, it's normally sat at 90%. This is with the lid 3/4 covered until I get around to cutting the plexiglass and ss mesh to fit to it. Is this ok? It all seems pretty stable but I have plenty of time to rectify anything wrong before I add frogs if needed. Thank you for all of your advice.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The main thing to remember with viv humidity is that your looking for basically a damp viv not wet.
Most keepers, inc myself, don`t own hygrometers as most don`t work properly.
For dart frogs room temps are normally fine, with around 24/25C during the day down to around 17/18C at night.
My vivs are also all in the livingroom which does make for easier heat control.
What is comfortable for me is also fine for the frogs.
Even as I type this at 1.30am the room is at 23C and the heating has been off for about 6 hours.
So with luck you`ll find that the heat won`t be too much of an issue.


Mike


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> The main thing to remember with viv humidity is that your looking for basically a damp viv not wet.
> Most keepers, inc myself, don`t own hygrometers as most don`t work properly.
> For dart frogs room temps are normally fine, with around 24/25C during the day down to around 17/18C at night.
> My vivs are also all in the livingroom which does make for easier heat control.
> ...


I agree, I don't think temperature will be much of an issue, fingers crossed, as it saves on additional heating and electrical items/sockets etc... less things to go wrong too. With this build, I am finding the substrate is remaining nicely moist without being sodden and wet, which I guess it's why I like the fogger over misting, as even with a fine mist, the tank looks overly wet? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong? All good learning now and getting it right from the start before live animals are introduced, so everything you say is being taken on board. 

Stacey


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

This is where the tank stands after adding some bromeliads and some Soleirolia (Helxine) soleirolii, broken into a few smaller patches and placed around. I may add a fireball next to the pauciflora, but not sure. The only plants I'm adding now are a fittonia 'white' to replace the peace lily at the front and a fittonia 'skeleton' (gold?) to the mid section small 6cm pot for a little colour, along with two orchids (maybe a third), a dendrobium lamyaiae for the right side extended branch and a bulbophyllum frostii for the mid bottom part of the branch. I removed the philodendron cutting from under the driftwood and added extra leaf litter instead.

Quite happy with how this has turned out so far!


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

That's looking okay.
Remember though, don`t go too daft with plants for now as before you know it you`ll be having to trim back loads or even remove some once they`ve all started growing.


Mike


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> That's looking okay.
> Remember though, don`t go too daft with plants for now as before you know it you`ll be having to trim back loads or even remove some once they`ve all started growing.
> 
> 
> Mike


Thank you Mike, I'd like it to grow in without having to mess around with it too much. Should I leave getting the extra brom and just add the two small orchids, then leave it alone? Or have I gone a little too crazy already?

Stacey


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It`s entirely up to you Stacey.
You can easily leave it for now and add more later once you see how it`s going to grow in.
How many broms you use depends as much on which frogs you`ll be getting.
If for example you were getting pums then you would need broms for them, but if you were getting Tincs then they are not so important.
Lots of people use broms for appearance as much as anything as they can make the viv look better, but in many cases they`re not really needed.
The main thing is to make sure you have a clear area for the frogs to sit in where they`ll come out to feed or maybe just congregate in.


Mike


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> It`s entirely up to you Stacey.
> You can easily leave it for now and add more later once you see how it`s going to grow in.
> How many broms you use depends as much on which frogs you`ll be getting.
> If for example you were getting pums then you would need broms for them, but if you were getting Tincs then they are not so important.
> ...


Taken on board. I'm thinking Tincs and maybe with more experience down the road, another build in the future for some Ranitomeya. No pums planned so yes, brooms here are more for appearance I guess, probably like the pond in front. :blush:
I'll have a rethink.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ahh man ladies listening ,better put the polite head on nah:lol2:

Stacey love the thought you are putting into this,no really mate LOVE it!! 

Stacey I can't comment much on the viv I've never used the eipweb plastique stuff ,used the moss mix though. My thoughts are start culturing ,nail some iso and springs now iso first then have a play with flies,learn this side mate do it now while no pressure to feed anyone!! Quietly build this side while watching the viv grow you'll enjoy it and then be good when it matters.

Kiddo, all the luck in the world,as above impressed with what you are doing and the effort put in,but hammer out just who you want to build for mate sooner than later. Folks think it's a dart,they are all the same one viv fits all,the reality is it's not quite so simple what is it nearly a couple of hundred species or morphs there of,that might live on a little island close to a beach,might live up a ruddy mountain...much to be made of finding the frog YOU will adore and building for him opps sorry mate HER:2thumb:

Again love the slow approach love the effort put in

best

Stu


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> Ahh man ladies listening ,better put the polite head on nah:lol2:
> 
> Stacey love the thought you are putting into this,no really mate LOVE it!!
> 
> ...


Hi Stu,

Thank you for the reply!  I had in mind a pair of Tinc Azureus for this build, as they seem to be bolder frogs, good for beginners and are a beautiful dart. Do you think this build will suit them? I am open to other suggestions, but didn't want to go in at the deep end. Mike has woken me up a little more and upon looking at the tank again, I've removed the peace lily and decided not to replace it with the fittonia, it's a nicer space and more room. I've also removed the small japonica pieces, knowing that they'd grow out and they don't really fit my idea of the tank. I think this will keep it nicer and more open on the floor. I almost did go overboard I think, which is why I'm grateful for the replies. 
Will be starting some isopod and springtail cultures next week I think. Then onto FF's once I have that down. Fingers crossed! The ones in the viv are thriving and multiplying, well the Springfield are. Haven't seen any woodlice, but only a few of those went in. I definitely need to add more!

Stacey


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The springtails will multiply quite happily Stacey.
Woodlice though will take a little longer to get established, but they are more secretive and will hide under wood and other objects so you`ll not see them out and about much.
Azureus are not in particular any hardier than any of the other Tincs so it won`t really matter which one you get.
Truth be told that most dart frogs are suitable for beginners if the viv is set up right and you have everything in place for looking after them.



Mike


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

Just thought I'd post an update on this build and some observations.
With just the 46w (combined) cfl's in the exo hood, I wasn't happy with growth or coverage. So I went ahead and purchased a beamswork evo 18 and also the 12 to cover the back. On the 18 I've left the 90 degree lenses in situ bar the 2 on the left to create more even spread down the Epiweb wall at the top. Otherwise the light punches down quite nicely at the front. For the 12 I've removed all the lenses and splash guard to maximise light spread at the back where everything is higher. I've ordered some replacement snap on lenses, both 120 and 90 degree, so ill add them on both units when they arrive. Plants and moss are already growing like crazy.  My experience with the moss slurry and Epiweb, light is very important and needs to be strong to get it going. It still has a way to go, but now I'm happy with the progress. My original lighting didn't cut it.

I now have 3 orchids, a Dendrobium lamyaiae, a Bulbophyllum tingabarinum and a rather poor health Bulbophyllum frostii that shipped to me in this state.  I've ordered another healthy one to replace it from a different seller. Not sure how this one unhealthy one will fare.

I've also just received my first fruit fly (mels) culture and waiting to start my own first culture. Fun fun! 

Here's how the tank is looking now.  This was taken before removing the lenses on the 12 to widen the spread of light.


The Epiweb...


My polypodium formosanum has grown back really well!

My Bulbophyllum tingarbarinum


Dendrobium lamyaiae


The poorly Bulbophyllum frostii


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Stacey.
I`m not familiar with the lights your using but they seem to be doing their job alright.
Everything is starting to grow nicely.
Looking good so far.


Mike


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## SLEEPiNG GiRL (Oct 18, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> Hi Stacey.
> I`m not familiar with the lights your using but they seem to be doing their job alright.
> Everything is starting to grow nicely.
> Looking good so far.
> ...


Thank you Mike. The lights are a nice looking cheap led unit that certainly out performs the other lights I tried. They seem a popular choice over in the US. I tried 2 x 23w compacts in the exo hood and then tried 2 x 14w led down lights (same as the jungle dawns). The down light led cobs would do an adequate job, even better doubled up, but the Beamworks/Green Element looks very nice and slimline, with the light output being so much better for the same wattage. Lower plants that were becoming leggy are shortening back down and the higher level plants are loving it too.


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