# IIf you were going to breed a dog................



## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Right before anyone flys of any handles its just an idea, nothing is set in stone...

I have a 4 yr old male pug, he has bred before, but that was in Russia, and I presume they have differebt ways over there.

I take it he would need to have a proper heath check involving tests etc?
I would only breed him to a bitch with all her paperwork and health checks/tests done also, and I presume the owner of the bitch would of found homes for most of them before the birth.....? 

Good idea/Bad idea whats your view?


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

It's pretty unlikely you'd find anyone responsible wanting to use him unless he is shown.


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

midori said:


> It's pretty unlikely you'd find anyone responsible wanting to use him unless he is shown.


I dont think he has ever been a show dog, but he comes from top quality russian breeders. If no one responsible was found I would never breed him.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> Right before anyone flys of any handles its just an idea, nothing is set in stone...
> 
> I have a 4 yr old male pug, he has bred before, but that was in Russia, and I presume they have differebt ways over there.
> 
> ...


lol, why would anyone fly off the handle? your only asking a question.

i will ask you a question, if you and your partner decide to have a baby, do you go to the doctors first and have hundreds or even thousands of pounds worth of tests done?

next, do you know why they want to breed their dog? do they have homes to go to once born? if so and the bitch isnt to old or to young then i would go for it.......

if you have any doubt just say you are having second thoughts and get your dogs balls cut :lol2:


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

mrcarlxx said:


> lol, why would anyone fly off the handle? your only asking a question.
> 
> i will ask you a question, if you and your partner decide to have a baby, do you go to the doctors first and have hundreds or even thousands of pounds worth of tests done?
> 
> ...


I just know how some of these convos can go lol.

No we had 2 children and didnt have tests done, but if there were any health poblems in the family then having tests done or even not having children would of been an option. And seen as pugs can have some problems its only wise dont you think?

I have noone lined up, not even dicided if id let him be bred, id just like Harrys little baby for when he is not around any more, so few yrs off, but I like to be organised in things like this.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> I just know how some of these convos can go lol.
> 
> No we had 2 children and didnt have tests done, but if there were any health poblems in the family then having tests done or even not having children would of been an option. And seen as pugs can have some problems its only wise dont you think?
> 
> I have noone lined up, not even dicided if id let him be bred, id just like Harrys little baby for when he is not around any more, so few yrs off, but I like to be organised in things like this.


well nearly all the blokes in my family died of a heart attack before the age of 55, this has not stopped me from having kids of my own lol....

but i have no idea on this breed....i think if they are prone to problems the get a few tests done and put your mind at ease

it seems to me like part of you wants the test done anyway, so book some tests.

but just because your dog has had tests does not mean that the puppies will lead a trouble free life


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

mrcarlxx said:


> lol, why would anyone fly off the handle? your only asking a question.
> 
> i will ask you a question, if you and your partner decide to have a baby, do you go to the doctors first and have hundreds or even thousands of pounds worth of tests done?
> 
> ...


Dogs are quite different to humans though!

If you were told that your genetic lines carried a fairly high chance of passing on to your children a hereditary condition that would cause them to go blind, be unable to walk due to bone structural problems, have a painful or debilitating disease etc, I think most people, would choose to have a simple blood test for peace of mind. Many humans who do carry serious genetic conditions will choose not to have children because it's not fair to bring someone into the world knowing they will have serious health problems and will choose to adopt instead. It's not talking hundreds of thousands of pounds, it's a few hundred at the most, less than one puppy will sell for most likely so hardly going to break the bank.

Different breeds of dogs have different problems, some genetic, some line bred, and the tests are generally cheaper or around the cost of a stud fee so any sensible breeder will want to be sure that they are not contributing to the already existing problems by breeding a dog that will pass on a disease or genetic condition to the pups, so Jen's being quite responsible by asking. 

I don't know much about Pugs though so can't really help there, I know that when I bought my german shepherd I asked about hip & elbow scores and if the male had been tested for an eye condition (sorry, I can't remember now, it was 4 years ago!), as german shepherds are very prone to hip displasia.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Firstly, you would need to show him to ensure he is of good enough quality to breed. We pug owners are spoiled for choice with top quality studs so the only people who would use a "pet" one would be people with poor quality, un tested and unproven bitches. Why put more poor quality pugs in the world? Theres enough already...

He would need x raying for hemivertebra and would have to be CLEAR to be bred. This needs doing by a specialist spinal expert. He would also need hip scoring, and a lot of people also test luxating patellas and hearts, this really would be necessary for a stud dog.

TBH, Russia isnt known for having the best quality dogs. The best ones tend to come from the UK actually, we have some of the best and longest established bloodlines in the world. But, it would certainly be worth putting him in some shows and seeing how he does. 

But, you bought him as a pet anyway so if he doesnt make the grade he will still be a much loved pet


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Temperament would be something i'd look in to as well. As for the shown comment i think its irrelevant so long as hes from good quality show stock thats a better achievement.

Marina


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Marinam2 said:


> Temperament would be something i'd look in to as well. As for the shown comment i think its irrelevant so long as hes from good quality show stock thats a better achievement.
> 
> Marina


No, a better achievement would be if, in the previous litters, he has produced good quality show stock... A champion parent isnt automatically going to give you any decent pups! A potential stud should have to prove himself and not be used solely on the fact he is from show winners.

So certainly worth looking into his progeny!


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> Temperament would be something i'd look in to as well. As for the shown comment i think its irrelevant so long as hes from good quality show stock thats a better achievement.
> 
> Marina




I dont want a show dog, Harry is my pet.

He is so so loving, fantastic with the kids, he hardly ever barks, loves other animals and people, even cats! lol.

He had a once over at the vets, and the vet said he was a healthy dog, so cant be that poor a quality. So long as he is healthy and has a good temprement I couldnt care less how many ribbons he could win.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> I dont want a show dog, Harry is my pet.
> 
> He is so so loving, fantastic with the kids, he hardly ever barks, loves other animals and people, even cats! lol.
> 
> He had a once over at the vets, and the vet said he was a healthy dog, so cant be that poor a quality. So long as he is healthy and has a good temprement I couldnt care less how many ribbons he could win.


Well of course not! I have a beautiful little pug, my Delilah. She is my pride and joy and i adore her. She's not gonna be winning any ribbons anytime soon though. She is, however, spayed as she is not breeding quality. If i took her to the vet for a once over the vet would say she is in perfect health - she is fit, slim, beautiful movement, fantastic breathing, good conformation. She is however a ticking time bomb as she has very severe HV. Genetic health problems cannot be detected with a general vet check up, they need specialist testing.

But, in this thread you're asking about using him at stud not about him being a pet and, unfortunately, to be a responsible stud dog owner you need to be proving his is of good enough quality to breed before you offer him out and take peoples money to use him and put his pups out in the world.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

buy a mut instead....

just because a dog is a show dog does not mean they are 'good'

BBC - Press Office - Pedigree Dogs Exposed


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

mrcarlxx said:


> buy a mut instead....
> 
> just because a dog is a show dog does not mean they are 'good'
> 
> BBC - Press Office - Pedigree Dogs Exposed


Oh and because the BBC say so, that means it's gospel...you do know that show was a load of nonsense, right?


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> No, a better achievement would be if, in the previous litters, he has produced good quality show stock... A champion parent isnt automatically going to give you any decent pups! A potential stud should have to prove himself and not be used solely on the fact he is from show winners.
> 
> So certainly worth looking into his progeny!


but shes not going know if he produces show stock unless she actually breeds him catch 22.
OP yes you want a pet dog other people might be looking for SHOW stock.
Marina


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Marinam2 said:


> but shes not going know if he produces show stock unless she actually breeds him catch 22.
> OP yes you want a pet dog other people might be looking for SHOW stock.
> Marina


She said in the first post he has been used before.

Assuming he is KC reg and the pups were it is easy enough to find out if any of them have been in the ring.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Oh and because the BBC say so, that means it's gospel...you do know that show was a load of nonsense, right?


Pedigree Dogs Exposed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

its not only the bbc though is it....you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that most pedigree dogs are not as fit or as healthy as a mut..

anyway i am starting a argument now....and thats not what the op wanted :lol2:

over and out


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> Well of course not! I have a beautiful little pug, my Delilah. She is my pride and joy and i adore her. She's not gonna be winning any ribbons anytime soon though. She is, however, spayed as she is not breeding quality. If i took her to the vet for a once over the vet would say she is in perfect health - she is fit, slim, beautiful movement, fantastic breathing, good conformation. She is however a ticking time bomb as she has very severe HV. Genetic health problems cannot be detected with a general vet check up, they need specialist testing.
> 
> But, in this thread you're asking about using him at stud not about him being a pet and, unfortunately, to be a responsible stud dog owner you need to be proving his is of good enough quality to breed before you offer him out and take peoples money to use him and put his pups out in the world.


I would get him tested for all the things that were needed to be a stud dog, id rather they were just sold as pets, but just because a dog is sold as a pet, doesn't have to mean they are not good enough to breed, if they are healthy.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> I would get him tested for all the things that were needed to be a stud dog, id rather they were just sold as pets, but just because a dog is sold as a pet, doesn't have to mean they are not good enough to breed, if they are healthy.


 
No, i agree with that. All of mine are sold as pets (unless we have a specific request from a show/working home, then they are really strictly vetted!!) as i think they have the best life that way.

And of course pet dogs can be good enough to breed, but the majority of pet owners wouldnt know if they were truely breeding quality (how many pet owners know their dogs breed standards thoroughly??), hence why it is always best to enter them in a few shows and see how they compare to others of the same breed, then make an educated decision.


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> No, i agree with that. All of mine are sold as pets (unless we have a specific request from a show/working home, then they are really strictly vetted!!) as i think they have the best life that way.
> 
> And of course pet dogs can be good enough to breed, but the majority of pet owners wouldnt know if they were truely breeding quality (how many pet owners know their dogs breed standards thoroughly??), hence why it is always best to enter them in a few shows and see how they compare to others of the same breed, then make an educated decision.


I would ask for documentation etc, to prove they are responsible in the breeding of their dog, if they did not provide this then Harry gets no sexy time lol. But im really not interested in showing him. Il ask his previous owner for some help to track down his little brood.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

mrcarlxx said:


> Pedigree Dogs Exposed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> its not only the bbc though is it....you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that most pedigree dogs are not as fit or as healthy as a mut..
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's the excuse given by lots of backyard breeders or crossbreed breeders...still bull.

Edit: Wikipedia is hardly the font of all knowledge. Hybrid vigour is a myth - healthy dogs bred to healthy dogs will likely make healthy pups. Outcrossing permanently is dangerous.

Yep - there are good and bad breeders in the KC, and the show standards are ridiculous. But at least they regulate how often bitches are bred from. Now the BYBs and puppy farms dont need to KC register, they can breed as often as they like and claim its because the KC are terrible.

Ignorance is bliss though - many people believe the inbreeding rubbish too - gives BYBs even more freedom to breed crap to crap and sell it as "healthy unKC registered".


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> I would ask for documentation etc, to prove they are responsible in the breeding of their dog, if they did not provide this then Harry gets no sexy time lol. But im really not interested in showing him. Il ask his previous owner for some help to track down his little brood.


Then i would leave it to those who are willing to prove their dogs are of good enough quality to breed. Putting your dog at stud is not just about making money quickly, you have to ensure you are adding something to the breed as a whole, and not potentially producing future problems. It should not be taken lightly. Health is only one part of that. For a bitch you can get away with not showing her if you take an experienced breeders advice on a suitable stud (although i do disagree with this also!!). But as a stud owner it is irresponsible not to make sure he is breeding quality in health AND conformation before breeding from him.

Im sure you have the best intentions, but just because he can breed doesnt mean he should. I would just enjoy him as a pet. You will gain nothing by offering him at stud unless you're just doing it for the money afterall.


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> Then i would leave it to those who are willing to prove their dogs are of good enough quality to breed. Putting your dog at stud is not just about making money quickly, you have to ensure you are adding something to the breed as a whole, and not potentially producing future problems. It should not be taken lightly. Health is only one part of that. For a bitch you can get away with not showing her if you take an experienced breeders advice on a suitable stud (although i do disagree with this also!!). But as a stud owner it is irresponsible not to make sure he is breeding quality in health AND conformation before breeding from him.
> 
> Im sure you have the best intentions, but just because he can breed doesnt mean he should. I would just enjoy him as a pet. You will gain nothing by offering him at stud unless you're just doing it for the money afterall.


I dont want any money from his breeding, just would like a Harry 2 one day in the next few years. Like I say I would get all the tests done, are there really no pug owners who just want to breed healthy pugs and dont care if they are show quality? Do they shows really make that much difference to anyone wanting him to breed to their bitch. 

Il find out his family tree, Iv been told his previus owner has all that paperwork to show who his parents and grandparents are/were.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> I dont want any money from his breeding, just would like a Harry 2 one day in the next few years. Like I say I would get all the tests done, are there really no pug owners who just want to breed healthy pugs and dont care if they are show quality? Do they shows really make that much difference to anyone wanting him to breed to their bitch.
> 
> Il find out his family tree, Iv been told his previus owner has all that paperwork to show who his parents and grandparents are/were.


If its not for the money, why do you want to offer him at stud?? It doesnt make any difference to him.

Im sure there are people who are willing to use a pet quality dog. They are not the sort of people who are going to health test their bitch or be breeding to produce the best quality puppies though. Anyone who has researched the breed before considering mating their bitch would want a dog that has been proven in the ring, you know you are getting a dog of good quality who has proven himself against other pugs that way. If you're not going to do it properly you shouldnt do it at all IMO. People say that puppy farming is the thing that brings the quality of most breeds down, and of course it is a big problem with pugs. But in our breed it is, unfortunately, the uneducated pet breeders who pose the biggest problem to the breed as a whole. They go into it a bit blinkered, not really bothering to research the problems involved and just end up selling poor quality dogs that are then bred and the cycle just goes on and on.

It would be lovely if the KC had a system like america where you can have different levels of registration (pet, breeding, showing) and only the breeding and show reg dogs can be bred from. Unfortunately, over here with pugs fetching such high prices people see the money as more important than the breed as a whole, which is probably the reason pugs have such a poor reputation for being unhealthy. The carefully bred, health tested pugs dont have the breathing and movement problems but people dont realise that as its the poor quality ones that are more often seen..

But anyway, it is your decision and you will do what you want, but if it was me, i would have him neutered and keep him as a much loved pet.


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Already stated that if I wee to breed him it wuld be for a Harry no.2 
Not interested in the money at all.

I wouldn't breed him if he had any health probs (as would be found out via tests) or to a bitch with any health probs either. 

His previous owner doesn't want him snipped, as she tells me (in not so great English) that he is from very good lines. But if I were to breed him, the tests would find that out for sure. 

Guess I just need all his paperwork really, see what it tells me.

Like I say it would not be for a few years yet aanyway, so things may have changed by then, might not want a Harry no.2 then, its just good to research. I might even change my mind on the show thing too by then.

p.s lets see some puggy pics then? They are soooo cute!


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

punky_jen said:


> He had a once over at the vets, and the vet said he was a healthy dog, so cant be that poor a quality. So long as he is healthy and has a good temperament.


My Chow had her once over at the vets and is also very healthy, but as healthy as she is she is no way breeding quality, her confirmation is not to breed standard but this does not affect her health, she is healthy but breeding her would not be in the interest of the breed as a whole.

I know you love him but he has barely got his paws under the table, he wont miss mating getting him neutered will protect him from cancers of the manly region, which i think is better a gift than a leg over now and again : victory:


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

lilworm said:


> My Chow had her once over at the vets and is also very healthy, but as healthy as she is she is no way breeding quality, her confirmation is not to breed standard but this does not affect her health, she is healthy but breeding her would not be in the interest of the breed as a whole.
> 
> I know you love him but he has barely got his paws under the table, he wont miss mating getting him neutered will protect him from cancers of the manly region, which i think is better a gift than a leg over now and again : victory:


I wonder then (if she is healthy) why it is not in 'the interests of the breed' to breed her if you wanted to?

Breeding if it ever happens will be along way off from now.


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

Myjb23 said:


> If its not for the money, why do you want to offer him at stud?? It doesnt make any difference to him.



From what i gather, the reason the OP wants to offer him to stud, is so she can have one of his offspring. same as why many owners of a bitch breed. Not make money, but to have a future generation of the dog. 

If you are serious about this OP, i would suggest you seeking out some pug breeders (try champdogs) and see what interest you would generate. Ie, if you got health tests that were good, and see if anyone would use him. Not much point doing all tests to find no1 will touch you without show history. 
I personally have no interest in showing (nor breeding for that matter), not sure whether the lack of showing would hold you back, i suppose his lineage would help to. Does he have a good / average / poor etc pedigree? 
A breeder may be able to guide you, and tell you wheher its just a useless dream, but hopefully will offer you some assistance. 
Good luck!


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> Already stated that if I wee to breed him it wuld be for a Harry no.2
> Not interested in the money at all.
> 
> I wouldn't breed him if he had any health probs (as would be found out via tests) or to a bitch with any health probs either.
> ...


 
She sold him (presumably?) so its up to you what you do with him 

Heres some pictures of my pug pups on this thread:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics-pictures/404813-pug-puppies.html

And heres Delilah, my baby:





























ETA some updated baby pics:


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Thanks I will ask on champdogs  

We rehomed him as she is going round the uk soon, I just need his paperwork off her and to change the address on his micochip, when I find out how.

Awwwww what a little cutie, her tail is so pretty!!!

This is Harry


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ug, I love pugs, too spensive for me though.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

He is a lovely looking boy, nice head.

I hate dew claws on pugs, makes me cringe when i see them! lol


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> He is a lovely looking boy, nice head.
> 
> I hate dew claws on pugs, makes me cringe when i see them! lol


lmao you funny thing. Il have to get a full body shot of him, his tail is pretty cute when up, its relaxed in that pic.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> lmao you funny thing. Il have to get a full body shot of him, his tail is pretty cute when up, its relaxed in that pic.


Yeah, would be nice to see one of him stood up!

The tails are cute when they're relaxed :lol2:


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> Thanks I will ask on champdogs
> 
> We rehomed him as she is going round the uk soon, I just need his paperwork off her and to change the address on his micochip, when I find out how.
> 
> ...



Can i ask why you didn't get papers when you got the dog? 
Hope you get them. HAve heard many people get screwed buying a dog with 'papers' and no papers ever surface.


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

punky_jen said:


> I wonder then (if she is healthy) why it is not in 'the interests of the breed' to breed her if you wanted to?
> 
> Breeding if it ever happens will be along way off from now.


Healthy does not mean breedable that's the mistake a lot of want to breed people make. If i bred her she would possibly give birth to pups that do not meet the breed standard, they may have strong hearts and be otherwise a picture of health with no congenital defects but they wont be able to go on and show or contribute effectively to carry on the breed as although healthy they may not be quality.
i would have to trust the buyers if they are prepared to risk buying a pup that may not be show-able if they want a show dog this is a risk even quality breeding has, then they have to settle for just for a pet and not breed from them and then contribute buy producing poor quality dogs that are healthy but not to breed standards. 
As a responsable owner who loves her chosen breeds, i would rather spay than risk contributing below breed standard pups.

she does not meet the breed standard in shape and size and conformation.

she is not up to standard but not being up to standard does not mean she is not healthy, she is just not good enough to breed from, but she is heart, lung, eye and skin healthy she has good joints ect ect very active for her breed, but still she is not breeding quality.


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

ownedbyroxy said:


> Can i ask why you didn't get papers when you got the dog?
> Hope you get them. HAve heard many people get screwed buying a dog with 'papers' and no papers ever surface.


She is my father in laws g/f, not seen her since she bought him over, il ask her for them now.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

lilworm said:


> Healthy does not mean breedable that's the mistake a lot of want to breed people make. If i bred her she would possibly give birth to pups that do not meet the breed standard, they may have strong hearts and be otherwise a picture of health with no congenital defects but they wont be able to go on and show or contribute effectively to carry on the breed as although healthy they may not be quality.
> i would have to trust the buyers if they are prepared to risk buying a pup that may not be show-able if they want a show dog this is a risk even quality breeding has, then they have to settle for just for a pet and not breed from them and then contribute buy producing poor quality dogs that are healthy but not to breed standards.
> *As a responsable owner who loves her chosen breeds, i would rather spay than risk contributing below breed standard pups.*
> 
> ...


 
Thank god for sensible people :whistling2: That is the most sensible sentence i have ever seen on any dog breeding debates :lol2:


If only everyone cared so much about the breeds they own...


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

lilworm said:


> Healthy does not mean breedable that's the mistake a lot of want to breed people make. If i bred her she would possibly give birth to pups that do not meet the breed standard, they may have strong hearts and be otherwise a picture of health with no congenital defects but they wont be able to go on and show or contribute effectively to carry on the breed as although healthy they may not be quality.
> i would have to trust the buyers if they are prepared to risk buying a pup that may not be show-able if they want a show dog this is a risk even quality breeding has, then they have to settle for just for a pet and not breed from them and then contribute buy producing poor quality dogs that are healthy but not to breed standards.
> As a responsable owner who loves her chosen breeds, i would rather spay than risk contributing below breed standard pups.
> 
> ...


Thats really sad, I HATE that she is fit and healthy but 'not good enough to breed from' as she doesn't meet apperance standards


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> Thats really sad, I HATE that she is fit and healthy but 'not good enough to breed from' as she doesn't meet apperance standards


Why do you hate that?

Breeding isnt just about the dog being healthy. To be a responsible breeder you have to take many things into account and the dog must be good enough to breed for its health, temperment, conformation, pedigree, show record... Its not just about one thing, its about having the whole package. If the dog doesnt tick ALL of the boxes it should not be bred.

Health is very important, but it is not the only thing to take into account when thinking of breeding.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

punky_jen said:


> Thats really sad, I HATE that she is fit and healthy but 'not good enough to breed from' as she doesn't meet apperance standards


Part of the reason is that lots of us like breeds for their looks and whilst that isn't the be all and end all, we obviously want to see Pugs that look like Pugs, Sharpei that look like Sharpei and Golden Retrievers that look lik Golden Retrievers etc...

Also, lilworm has mentioned conformation, and this is important not only for looks, but for health. Although the dog may not be unhealthy herself, poor confomrtaion can be passed on and create unhealthy dogs.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

op, there is really no point in talking to people on the internet about breeding your dog, most of the people on here have either just had a fresh batch of horemones or expect your humble little dog to have god like qualitys...good enough is just never good enough....even if you get the test most people on here would still question why you want to breed....

tbh i cant understand why people want to breed dogs....there are loads of dogs that need homes.........but i understand you wanting a puppy that has some connection to the animal you have had as a pet for many years. so it would be nice to have a part of your dog with you well after your current dog has passed over (that sounds real morbid lol )


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> She is my father in laws g/f, not seen her since she bought him over, il ask her for them now.



Thats good. Have heard of many people buying dogs from preloved or epupz etc and buying a kc dog, and being fed excuses such as 'cant find papers. will send them on later' and then never hear from them again.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

midori said:


> Part of the reason is that lots of us like breeds for their looks and whilst that isn't the be all and end all, we obviously want to see Pugs that look like Pugs, Sharpei that look like Sharpei and Golden Retrievers that look lik Golden Retrievers etc...
> 
> Also, lilworm has mentioned conformation, and this is important not only for looks, but for health. Although the dog may not be unhealthy herself, poor confomrtaion can be passed on and create unhealthy dogs.


you can still breed two perfectly healthy dogs and end up with some unhealthy offspring...


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

ownedbyroxy said:


> Thats good. Have heard of many people buying dogs from preloved or epupz etc and buying a kc dog, and being fed excuses such as 'cant find papers. will send them on later' and then never hear from them again.


Id never thought of having a dog before, but they said they were going to take him to a rescue  I dont really see him as a dog, he is just Harry 

He never barks, unless he is dreaming, and doesnt hate cats, he snuggles upto me on the sofa, he is just like a big kitty that I walk 3 times a day lol


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

mrcarlxx said:


> you can still breed two perfectly healthy dogs and end up with some unhealthy offspring...


Of course, but why encourage someone to play russian roulette by not even lowering the risks? :whip:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

mrcarlxx said:


> you can still breed two perfectly healthy dogs and end up with some unhealthy offspring...


 
Yes, you can, but the chances are reduced, if not entirely eliminatedby some health tests. 

For example, two Staffs clear of L2-HGA can never produce offsrping with the condition. 

If you can greatly reduce the chances of producing unhealthy puppies, why wouldn't you?


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Of course, but why encourage someone to play russian roulette by not even lowering the risks? :whip:


your right, some times i need to think before i type :lol2:


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## lilworm (Aug 11, 2007)

punky_jen said:


> Thats really sad, I HATE that she is fit and healthy but 'not good enough to breed from' as she doesn't meet apperance standards


No is not sad, she is a healthy result of a thoughtless puppy farmer her sister however meets standard but has a congenital eye problem and is due in for a cruitiate ligament repair, 
i took my girls on for love and nothing more they are spayed and will live in as much luxury i can provide

we have breed standards in place to protect the breed to stop regardless breeding but unfortunately that does already go on, so no point in adding to it if you have substandard animals that's no benefit to the future of the breed itself.
and with less responsible caring individuals this is where the problem starts so being healthy is just not enough if you want to breed.

breeding from top quality proven dogs protects the longevity of the breed as a rule, even though all breeds gave a shady side puppy farms don't breed for quality now and some of these dogs come KC reg'd

all my 3 chows have come through from the shady side of town, 

but the point i was making was that 2 of them are are healthy but not quality, one although healthy in heart body lung and is meeting breed standard has a defect that should not be passed on.

Coming from where they have i am fortunate they are as healthy as they are. and yes i could breed if i wanted to but i have my own set of ethics that i live by.
I am not anti breeding, but I am anti thoughtless breeding there is enough of this in every breed, and thats why we all have problems within our breeds, 

and i don't think a dog being healthy to look at or just because your vet says they are healthy, is good enough you must consider your breed standard and test for hereditary defects and any possible recessive genes that your lines may carry.


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## darradar (Jan 21, 2010)

as a dog groomer, ive worked with dogs my whole life, your decision to breed from your boy is ultimatly down to you, and as some have mentioned the "show" factor, its not needed if your breeding him for pet homes, if your doing this purley to produce lil pooches like your own, its a wonderfull thing, it seems to me that you obvously have a wonderfull little pooch with a great tempermant, its understandable that you might want to breed with him, but i do urge you, once you have, your lil fella will want his sexy time ALL the time......you must consider this, what he doesnt know he isnt missing, but males can become dominating after they they have completed thier little "task" with the bitch.....:flrt: thier tempermant can be suverly changed, it can take many months (in my case over a year) for a stud dog to return to its "preperformance:censor:" state of mind......

if you do go ahaed and breed with him, also you are able to request the pick of the litter as a stud fee......:2thumb: did you consider that.....you could have another.......

good luck im sure youl keep us posted


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I know it's not really comparable, but for example...we rescued two rat boys from a pregnant pet shop girl. Most of the litter died from congenital heart issues, amongst other problems. But to look at one of mine, you'd think he was fit as a fiddle - he outlived the rest, and the vet said he was in the pinnacle of health.

If I'd have bred from him, I would have condemned a whole litter to an early grave. You cant tell if an animal is carrying hereditary problems by looking at them or only getting them a normal check over by the vet.

Unless you know the health and temperament of the lines way back, and do all the relevent health tests, you shouldn't risk breeding.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> I know it's not really comparable, but for example...we rescued two rat boys from a pregnant pet shop girl. Most of the litter died from congenital heart issues, amongst other problems. But to look at one of mine, you'd think he was fit as a fiddle - he outlived the rest, and the vet said he was in the pinnacle of health.
> 
> If I'd have bred from him, I would have condemned a whole litter to an early grave. You cant tell if an animal is carrying hereditary problems by looking at them or only getting them a normal check over by the vet.
> 
> Unless you know the health and temperament of the lines way back, and do all the relevent health tests, you shouldn't risk breeding.


No, i think that applies for dogs as well as rats. In fact, i think it applies for any animal! :2thumb: I've always wanted a rat and have considered just buying one from pets at home or something as they're very cute and its easy to just drive down there and get one :whistling2: But after reading that i think if i did go for one it would be stupid to do that, i would have to find a breeder. Its stupid to be so careful with my dogs then be lazy with buying another pet :blush:




The reasons discussed on this thread is the reason conscientious breeders dont breed very often! Not only does your bitch have to tick all the boxes, you then have to go out and hunt for a stud that ticks them all AND compliment your bitches type and conformation... Its a bloody nightmare :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If you ever decide to get some rats, drop me a pm and I'll give you some breeders suggestions


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> If you ever decide to get some rats, drop me a pm and I'll give you some breeders suggestions


 
Thank you, i will do that!

I have wanted a pair for years but they're bloomin expensive! Well, their set up is anyway :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

That's why I love Freecycle, and other rat owners with second hand cages :lol2:


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> That's why I love Freecycle, and other rat owners with second hand cages :lol2:


Ooh... Good idea... free ads here i come :whistling2:

:lol2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

punky_jen said:


> Thats really sad, I HATE that she is fit and healthy but 'not good enough to breed from' as she doesn't meet apperance standards


But why is that a bad thing?

If you want a dog that isn't necessarily quite what a pug should be - healthy, with a good temperament AND fits the breed standard, proven by showing the dog - then why breed a PUG? 

I won't say you shouldn't breed your boy - but you'll likely find it hard to find a breeder out there who doesn't care whether or not your dog meets the breed standards BUT is willing to do *all* of the health tests to make sure that their bitch is healthy and fit to be bred.

What's so bad about putting him into a couple of shows to see how he does, anyway? My parents showed dogs, and most of them LOVED the show ring. It was a great, fun walk, where they got to see lots of strange dogs, read lots of new doggy newspapers and then run 'round in circles with Mum and Dad before getting lovely liver treats.


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> Thats really sad, I HATE that she is fit and healthy but 'not good enough to breed from' as she doesn't meet apperance standards


thats the problem with kc and showing. its not about getting healthy sweet pets its about show standards which i find really sad. i'd much rather buy a dog knowing it was bred from healthy friendly parents than 'show' dogs


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

midori said:


> Yes, you can, but the chances are reduced, if not entirely eliminatedby some health tests.
> 
> For example, two Staffs clear of L2-HGA can never produce offsrping with the condition.
> 
> If you can greatly reduce the chances of producing unhealthy puppies, why wouldn't you?


she said she would health test?? she just doesn't want a show dog


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

mrcarlxx said:


> lol, why would anyone fly off the handle? your only asking a question.


because its rfuk :whistling2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Exotic Mad said:


> she said she would health test?? she just doesn't want a show dog


 
have to agree there she did say on her 1st post she assumed she would have to have health tests done...............which would point to her willing to have them done should she want to breed 

to be fair all these threads are turning into biatch fests people ask questions then get dived on..................people are gonna stop asking questions about things and just doing it and possibly the wrong way if they keep on getting the responses they do when asking :bash:


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Exotic Mad said:


> she said she would health test?? she just doesn't want a show dog


If you read the post properly you would see midori was responding to a comment from someone who is NOT the OP.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

I cant see where this thread has turned into a "bitch fest" - it seems pretty friendly and informative to me.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

I don't see wher eit's turne dinto a 'bitch fest' either... and Yes, I was posting in response to someone who wasn't the OP. 

With regard to showing, it is slightly different owning a bitch to a dog in that if you own a bitch, you can go out and chose the stud dog, and the owner of that dog may or may not agree to allow you to use that dog. If you own a dog, then obviously bitch owners have to chose to use that dog. If they have say, only two dogs to chose from, both are health tested, both are great family pets, both of equal temprement etc, but one is a Sh Ch and one has never been shown, which one do you think they are going to chose? 

The world of stud dogs is pretty competitive an dmost owners want the best for their bitch. I don't own any dogs, but I certainly wouldn't chose a dog that hadn't been shown to use on any of my bitches, and i say that knowing that most of my puppies will go to pet homes, any puppy I keep will primarily be a pet and temprement and health are paramount to me.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

punky_jen said:


> I dont want a show dog, Harry is my pet.
> 
> He is so so loving, fantastic with the kids, he hardly ever barks, loves other animals and people, even cats! lol.
> 
> He had a once over at the vets, and the vet said he was a healthy dog, so cant be that poor a quality. So long as he is healthy and has a good temprement I couldnt care less how many ribbons he could win.


Health and quality are not the same. You can have a top quality champion show dog which has health problems, or a scrubby old mongrel which is as fit as a flea. Your vet will not be able to see hereditary health issues by looking at him. Will you be able to manage him during the mating to ensure he doesn't damage the bitch or that the bitch doesn't damage him when they are tied? Will you be able to tell if he is getting stressed and exhausted when he tries to mate the bitch and is at risk of having a heart attack or collapsing from heat stress?
Can you manage a maiden bitch and reassure the owner that you won't let your dog injure his bitch?
Harry may indeed be a nice pet but will he be the same nice pet once he becomes a stud dog? He'll want to mate more bitches, he'll start to scent mark in your home, he'll become aggressive with other male dogs. He may try mounting your children.
If you only want a pet as you say you do, why are you thinking of turning him into a stud dog instead?
You cannot just use him once and then never again. That's cruel, frankly.
Imagine letting your husband have sex once, then telling him, no more thanks, never again.
You may want one of his puppies but what if the bitch owner refuses to sell you one?
Since he is from Russia, how will this affect the registration of any puppies with the kennel club?
If you want another pug, just buy another pug and have Harry castrated. 
Or use him at stud, turn him into a stud dog and lose him as a pet.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

punky_jen said:


> Right before anyone flys of any handles its just an idea, nothing is set in stone...
> 
> I have a 4 yr old male pug, he has bred before, but that was in Russia, and I presume they have differebt ways over there.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to get involved in the rest of this thread ...

Pugs are a toy breed, and as such bred specifically for their looks - they don't have a "purpose" aside from being a fabulous pet dog. If he's an import, you might find that his pedigree is a good outcross to many UK bitches and as such he could well be in demand as a stud.

Your best bet would be to join your local (or the national) pug club, and take him to a few shows. He may not do particularly well in shows if the breed standard in Russia is particularly different, but that will allow other pug breeders to meet him and evaluate him - I would be wary of anyone who wants to use your dog at stud without meeting him a few times first, as if all that makes a pug a pug is their breed standard, why would anyone who is interested in the breed want to use a pug that doesn't complement their bitch? And they won't know that without meeting him.

The pug clubs will also be able to let you know what health tests are necessary before he can be considered useful as a stud dog. As a stud dog owner you would be responsible for the health of the bitch and supervising the matings (for example if a bitch won't stand, or tries to move during a tie), so the backup of other breeders who know pug breeding will be the best thing for ensuring the safety of your stud and the bitch during the mating too.


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Health and quality are not the same. You can have a top quality champion show dog which has health problems, or a scrubby old mongrel which is as fit as a flea. Your vet will not be able to see hereditary health issues by looking at him. Will you be able to manage him during the mating to ensure he doesn't damage the bitch or that the bitch doesn't damage him when they are tied? Will you be able to tell if he is getting stressed and exhausted when he tries to mate the bitch and is at risk of having a heart attack or collapsing from heat stress?
> Can you manage a maiden bitch and reassure the owner that you won't let your dog injure his bitch?
> Harry may indeed be a nice pet but will he be the same nice pet once he becomes a stud dog? He'll want to mate more bitches, he'll start to scent mark in your home, he'll become aggressive with other male dogs. He may try mounting your children.
> If you only want a pet as you say you do, why are you thinking of turning him into a stud dog instead?
> ...


He has already been used as a stud dog in Russia, and have had no problems with him as a pet.

The only time he has scented in doors is anywhere where another dog has been...the vets is quite embarassing.

I didnt know things could change once they have 'fun time' so thats defo something to consider if I decided to stud him one day. And I didnt know it would be cruel, I didnt think a dog would think the same way as a man, I dont want Harry getting nasty or humping things, I do care for him very much.

It seems very unlikely id stud him with the info from this thread, I just thought it would be fantastic to have a Harry no.2 one day.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

If you really want a 'Harry 2', your best bet would be to ask his breeder for a puppy from the same or one of the same parents. 

I have mother and daughter here, and they are astoundingly different personality wise, although they are similar in looks, but daughte ris far more like her Dad and has a straight coat, whereas Mum's is wavy. (they are Golden Retrievers)


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*puppy for a stud fee?*

I might be wrong Punky jen but I don't think you'd get a pup for the use of your dog,I think there would be a big difference in the price of using a stud dog and a pug puppy.Some breeds offer a pup for the use of the stud but I would think it less common in a breed that fetches a high price.I paid £450 for the use of a stud dog with the puppies if I chose to sell one fetching around £1800,so it's quite a big difference.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

sarahc said:


> I might be wrong Punky jen but I don't think you'd get a pup for the use of your dog,I think there would be a big difference in the price of using a stud dog and a pug puppy.Some breeds offer a pup for the use of the stud but I would think it less common in a breed that fetches a high price.I paid £450 for the use of a stud dog with the puppies if I chose to sell one fetching around £1800,so it's quite a big difference.


This is very true. The stud fee for a pet quality pug is around £250-£300 (we only paid £500 to use the top Champion producing, health tested stud dog in the UK!) and the price of a kc reg pup is upwards of £1000.

The only time stud owners get a puppy back is if they have sold a bitch on breeding terms with a mating to their dog.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

I really, really, really want a pug.... :flrt:


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

midori said:


> I really, really, really want a pug.... :flrt:


Everyone should have one! Fantastic little dogs :2thumb:


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

sarahc said:


> I might be wrong Punky jen but I don't think you'd get a pup for the use of your dog,I think there would be a big difference in the price of using a stud dog and a pug puppy.Some breeds offer a pup for the use of the stud but I would think it less common in a breed that fetches a high price.I paid £450 for the use of a stud dog with the puppies if I chose to sell one fetching around £1800,so it's quite a big difference.


You're right - puppy back stud fees are much more common in breeds that tend to have large litters. Pugs and other small dogs only have a couple of pups normally, if the stud owner took what they wanted then it would often leave the bitch owner without a suitable pup.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Myjb23 said:


> Everyone should have one! Fantastic little dogs :2thumb:


 
They are and robust/speedy enough to keep up with the Goldens on walks. 

I will have to wait though as we are having a Golden litter this year and keeping a puppy, and I am pregnant. So would be next year at the earliest, but probably the year after. I will get one though. :flrt:


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Iv not met any other pugs but if Harry is anything to go by then you should defo get one, only draw back is the shedding of hair, but I vac 2 times a day so its not bad. 

Ahhh I see I thought I might be able to have a pup from the litter, but if not then 100% no breeding, as the pup was all I wanted from it. 

Just uploading some pics of harry now


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

It was hard to get him to stand still lol


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

punky_jen said:


> Iv not met any other pugs but if Harry is anything to go by then you should defo get one, *only draw back is the shedding of hair*, but I vac 2 times a day so its not bad.
> 
> Ahhh I see I thought I might be able to have a pup from the litter, but if not then 100% no breeding, as the pup was all I wanted from it.
> 
> Just uploading some pics of harry now


:lol2: We have three very hairy adult Golden Retrievers in the house, I'm not sure one little pug can make that much difference...


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

ahhh thats the men in black dog


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

He's a handsome boy. I personally wouldnt say he is show quality from those pics (though its hard to tell from a pic of course!!), he has a couple of faults that i can see fairly clearly on those but he IS a handsome boy 

Many stud owners will take a fee for the mating then buy a pup from the litter if they want, but i think you'd struggle to find someone willing to give you a pup from the litter for free.


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

midori said:


> :lol2: We have three very hairy adult Golden Retrievers in the house, I'm not sure one little pug can make that much difference...


You would be surprised!! I have 6 labradors and also used to have a toller. NOTHING compares to pug hair. When they blow their coats it comes off in clouds and gets stuck to everthing, it is a nightmare!! The blacks arent so bad as they have a single coat, but the fawns have double coats and it is awful!


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> He's a handsome boy. I personally wouldnt say he is show quality from those pics (though its hard to tell from a pic of course!!), he has a couple of faults that i can see fairly clearly on those but he IS a handsome boy
> 
> Many stud owners will take a fee for the mating then buy a pup from the litter if they want, but i think you'd struggle to find someone willing to give you a pup from the litter for free.


No worries, iv pretty much given up on the idea as id not get a pup anyways.

Just wondering what faults he has? I wont take offence, am just cuious


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> No worries, iv pretty much given up on the idea as id not get a pup anyways.
> 
> Just wondering what faults he has? I wont take offence, am just cuious


Well the things i noticed from those pics, and i stress again it is almost impossible to accurately assess a dog from pics, but he seems to have quite a roached back which is of course very undesirable. He also has a low set tail which isnt a major problem but is "incorrect" and quite a straight shoulder.

But, he also has a beautiful head, lovely coat, nice length of leg and looks in fab condition :2thumb: I've seen a lot worse in the show ring :whistling2: But he does have some faults that are quite noticable, but that may just be the pics of course :lol2:


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> Well the things i noticed from those pics, and i stress again it is almost impossible to accurately assess a dog from pics, but he seems to have quite a roached back which is of course very undesirable. He also has a low set tail which isnt a major problem but is "incorrect" and quite a straight shoulder.
> 
> But, he also has a beautiful head, lovely coat, nice length of leg and looks in fab condition :2thumb: I've seen a lot worse in the show ring :whistling2: But he does have some faults that are quite noticable, but that may just be the pics of course :lol2:


What is a roached back? Its nothing that can cause him pain is it?


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

punky_jen said:


> What is a roached back? Its nothing that can cause him pain is it?


No, it shouldnt do, it is just a conformation fault. The back from neck to tail should be level. Many pugs have either a dip in the topline (so it slopes up or down towards the tail) or a roach which is where its a little hunched and gives a curved back like a GSD.


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## punky_jen (Feb 22, 2007)

Myjb23 said:


> No, it shouldnt do, it is just a conformation fault. The back from neck to tail should be level. Many pugs have either a dip in the topline (so it slopes up or down towards the tail) or a roach which is where its a little hunched and gives a curved back like a GSD.


Ahhh I see. Thanks for your help.


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## pebbles (Jul 12, 2006)

I love pugs and would have tons of them if I could. They are the most wonderfull breed and would recommend them to anyone who after a dog.

I have a black pug (Phoebe) and I love her to bits, she is my baby, when I first got her I will say the thought of breeding her crossed my mind. However, after joing a pug forum that thought soon left mt head and I've had her spayed. I love my pug the way she is and I wouldn't want her to change in anyway.

My vet told me if I wasn't going to breed her then it would be best to have her spayed because of the cancer risks and stuff and to be really honest if I had breed her I would be a very irresponable owner as I have no idea about breeding the pug breed. Someone said to me "it's not hard just put her with another dog, loads of people do" but I care about my dog so that's why I had her spayed.

This is Phoebe
























I do want another pug and I'm hoping to get one later on in the year. I'd rather buy one from a good breeder than risk my own dog.

I've probably not made any sense lol just wanted to add my bit lol

As for the show thing my Phoebe is probably full of faults and if there was a competition for the best faults, she would win but that doesn't matter to me cause she's my little champ and I love her.

Sorry for waffling lol


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## Myjb23 (Oct 14, 2009)

Phoebe is lovely! What a sweet baby Im not a big fan of the blacks generally but she is cute, i think its the monkey faces of the fawns that i love lol. A friend of mine specialises in black pugs though, she adores them!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Cor blimey, she's gorgeous! :flrt:


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## pebbles (Jul 12, 2006)

Myjb23 said:


> Phoebe is lovely! What a sweet baby Im not a big fan of the blacks generally but she is cute, i think its the monkey faces of the fawns that i love lol. A friend of mine specialises in black pugs though, she adores them!


We're hoping to get a fawn one next. It would be nice to have one of each.


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