# Domesticated foxes? Info wanted



## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

As above I was watching a show on dogs and they mentioned a project in which they've selected the least likely to bite foxes and bred these together after ten years the foxes on the show started barking and devolving new colours and there ears changed I'm interested what type of fox are these and have any from this project made it to the pet trade ? 

Amy body else see the show and no what I'm talking about ?


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

jaykickboxer said:


> As above I was watching a show on dogs and they mentioned a project in which they've selected the least likely to bite foxes and bred these together after ten years the foxes on the show started barking and devolving new colours and there ears changed I'm interested what type of fox are these and have any from this project made it to the pet trade ?
> 
> Amy body else see the show and no what I'm talking about ?


I know of the project you talk about, they were surprised that the ones which showed the most tameness started to show similar colour patterns to collies and things.

I believe they were red foxes (Vulpes vulpes) but may be wrong. There are foxes in the pet trade and some members do own them. Disillusioned and Elina spring instantly to mind. They will be best placed to answer any questions I think.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I seem to recall this study being mentioned here a few years ago. They were some kind of fur fox in Russia I thought. I recall the person who posted before said it was impossible to get these foxes, ie the ones from this breeding project.

There are a large number of foxes for sale though currently, in many colours, just not this floppy eared group


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Tarron said:


> I know of the project you talk about, they were surprised that the ones which showed the most tameness started to show similar colour patterns to collies and things.
> 
> I believe they were red foxes (Vulpes vulpes) but may be wrong. There are foxes in the pet trade and some members do own them. Disillusioned and Elina spring instantly to mind. They will be best placed to answer any questions I think.





Kare said:


> I seem to recall this study being mentioned here a few years ago. They were some kind of fur fox in Russia I thought. I recall the person who posted before said it was impossible to get these foxes, ie the ones from this breeding project.
> 
> There are a large number of foxes for sale though currently, in many colours, just not this floppy eared group



I no u can get loads of types of foxes in the pet trade but its just the domesticated ones that interest me I'm surprised a few haven't ended up with breeders


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## Andy G (Sep 3, 2009)

It is a Russian project that is ongoing. It has been running for along time now, nearly 50 years. But very rapid and suprising results were achieved in quite a short time frame.

Google 'Russian fox domestication'. There is some good clear footage of the animals as well. Im sure they are not red fox, they are a Grey type but similar in size.

The flopping of the ears really interested me, apparently it is due to a hormone that is linked with domestication in canines and was selectively bred for in very few generations. 

Makes you think about the domestic dog and what an acheivement it really is, most domestic dogs have floppy ears and the breeds that dont tend to be used in roles that require a bit more edge and visually resemble the ancestor physically (shepherd breeds, sled dogs and the afghan nomad dogs).

Really interesting project.


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## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

It was the silver fox from Russia. I don't know anyone that has one of the "Domesticated one" ie the ones with the dropped ears though.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Rhianna.J said:


> It was the silver fox from Russia. I don't know anyone that has one of the "Domesticated one" ie the ones with the dropped ears though.


Cheers shame there not available


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## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

Domesticated silver foxes from the institute are around £5,000+. Atop of that you have quarantine and shipping. 
I know a few people with them, one in the US and a few in the EU and they end up no more tame then a hand reared ranched fox, they are just not fearful of strangers but to be honest you can have a HR ranched fox not be afraid of strangers (my Ranger for example). 
They still have a violet gland which they WILL release when they are worried, they still dig like a fox, are destructive like a fox, urinate on whatever is 'theirs' like a fox and require an outside enclosure like any other v.vulpes.
The floppy ears, curled, shorter tail and dalmatian like markings are not something all of the Siberian domesticated foxes have, all of those traits are rare and also never all found on one animal. 
The ONLY thing that all of the 'domestic elite' (tamest of the domesticated foxes) have is the star gene.


-Elina

PS: All animals from the institute are castrated prior to being sold.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Elina said:


> Domesticated silver foxes from the institute are around £5,000+. Atop of that you have quarantine and shipping.
> I know a few people with them, one in the US and a few in the EU and they end up no more tame then a hand reared ranched fox, they are just not fearful of strangers but to be honest you can have a HR ranched fox not be afraid of strangers (my Ranger for example).
> They still have a violet gland which they WILL release when they are worried, they still dig like a fox, are destructive like a fox, urinate on whatever is 'theirs' like a fox and require an outside enclosure like any other v.vulpes.
> The floppy ears, curled, shorter tail and dalmatian like markings are not something all of the Siberian domesticated foxes have, all of those traits are rare and also never all found on one animal.
> ...


Mental 5 grand is steep but if there casterated thats mental , shame they still have all them traits I thought they might have lost a few


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## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

The only real bonus is that they would be good for educational shows due to not being afraid of people but like I said you can have a normal ranched fox not be fearful of humans and they are £150+. 

I must admit non domesticated foxes are just fine: 
Just hanging out with my silver fox - YouTube

Many fur farms have foxes with floppy ears, theirs are not genetic though. Theirs are down to the taller foxes ears being sort of forced to be floppy due to the fur farm cages. I am not saying this is the case with the Siberian foxes but it was something a fur farmer brought up and showed us on another forum when domesticated foxes were being discussed. 
-Elina


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Elina said:


> The only real bonus is that they would be good for educational shows due to not being afraid of people but like I said you can have a normal ranched fox not be fearful of humans and they are £150+.
> 
> I must admit non domesticated foxes are just fine:
> Just hanging out with my silver fox - YouTube
> ...


Yeh to be fair seeing the show I was disgusted by the cage sizes I hope they were bigger then they seemed otherwise the project wants shutting down if this is the case with the floppy ears that's shocking I'm surprised they bark tho ?


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## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

My v.vulpes bark too though hehe, they copy my papillon so they actually sort of yap. I know a few normal ranched foxes that bark. They all make normal fox sounds too though.

None of the domesticated (from the institute) foxes I know of that are owned by people bark and they are only pets of people so maybe the ones in the institute heard their guard dogs?

Before I got my 1st foxes both myself and my sister thought these domesticated silver foxes were the be all and end all but then we joined Sybil's den and met people with pet foxes that were not 'domesticated'. These 'wild' foxes were just as tame as the Siberian ones just they were fearful of strangers a majority of the time but when for a fox being afraid means flight and not fight there really is no need for someone who wants a fox as a pet and not for exhibition to pay so very much. I 100% decided I would not get a Siberian fox when I talked to people from outside the institute with them and found out about them still smelling, being destructive and so forth.

-Elina


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Elina said:


> My v.vulpes bark too though hehe, they copy my papillon so they actually sort of yap. I know a few normal ranched foxes that bark. They all make normal fox sounds too though.
> 
> None of the domesticated (from the institute) foxes I know of that are owned by people bark and they are only pets of people so maybe the ones in the institute heard their guard dogs?
> 
> ...



To be fair I don't think il get one although there's no denying there cute the way they were portrayed on the show made me really interested its seems they probably talked them up abit more then is true tho although impressive it's seems most the adaptations are explainable in other ways I'm not sure if u see the same show but it featured my dogs twin they showed a portrait of bulldogs from the 18 th century and one looked strangly like my olde Tyme bully what do u reckon


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)




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