# Best heat source for large viv



## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

I'm having a new viv made for my Royal and it will be W 63in, D 31.5in and H 36in. Yes, measurements sound odd, but being made to sit on piece of furniture. 

The current viv is 3ft x 2ft x 2ft and is heated via a ceramic heater and I also use a uva/uvb bulb, though it's not the type that provides much heat. I'm wondering if I need to be looking at a different heating system for the new viv? This will be Fluffys forever home and I want to get the set up right before transferring them to it. 

Might be worth mentioning it is being made with 6in bottom front panel to allow deeper substrate, will have 2 sets of doors and 4 vents. I plan to put a basking shelf/rock under the uva/ uvb lamp to ensure correct distance for best affect. 

TIA


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

So many options. Drop @retic666 a PM - He was selling a range of thin ceramic type rectangular heat panels that he uses in his large vivs for his retics. Or you could use a tube heater low down to give the ambient background temperature of around 26-28c and then use a spot lamp for the daytime hot spot. The drawback with this is you need two thermostats, there are no suitable commercial guards for the tube heater so a DIY approach is needed, and the combined wattage may make it expensive to run.

My Boa's viv has a 150w trough ceramic, reflector and custom guard. Again, whilst sourcing the CHE is easy, finding a company to make the guard is going to be difficult. I think it's easy to get in the mindset that a larger viv needs bigger higher power heaters, it doesn't. You could place a shelf 18" above the substrate at one end and fit a 100w slimline CHE in a commercial guard. You may need to double up the thickness of the shelf to prevent the rearward heat making the surface too hot, but it would give you two options. One a localised hotspot under the heater, and secondly, a warm surface should the snake want to take advantage of belly heat. I did something similar decades back with a 150w trough CHE, and boxed it in on three sides, and covered the base and front in a wire mesh. The CHE was on a pulse stat and the residual heat that got passed the reflector made the top surface around 34-38c. But my snakes often too advantage of this as can be seen below



















With the surface reading 35 (IR Laser thermometer) I measured the snake temperatures, which were all within what we deem as being "ideal" for a Royal

Granted the DIY boxes didn't win any awards, but they were functional. If you or someone you know has better crafting skills then I'm sure you could do better


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

Malc said:


> So many options. Drop @retic666 a PM - He was selling a range of thin ceramic type rectangular heat panels that he uses in his large vivs for his retics. Or you could use a tube heater low down to give the ambient background temperature of around 26-28c and then use a spot lamp for the daytime hot spot. The drawback with this is you need two thermostats, there are no suitable commercial guards for the tube heater so a DIY approach is needed, and the combined wattage may make it expensive to run.
> 
> My Boa's viv has a 150w trough ceramic, reflector and custom guard. Again, whilst sourcing the CHE is easy, finding a company to make the guard is going to be difficult. I think it's easy to get in the mindset that a larger viv needs bigger higher power heaters, it doesn't. You could place a shelf 18" above the substrate at one end and fit a 100w slimline CHE in a commercial guard. You may need to double up the thickness of the shelf to prevent the rearward heat making the surface too hot, but it would give you two options. One a localised hotspot under the heater, and secondly, a warm surface should the snake want to take advantage of belly heat. I did something similar decades back with a 150w trough CHE, and boxed it in on three sides, and covered the base and front in a wire mesh. The CHE was on a pulse stat and the residual heat that got passed the reflector made the top surface around 34-38c. But my snakes often too advantage of this as can be seen below
> 
> ...





Elly66 said:


> I'm having a new viv made for my Royal and it will be W 63in, D 31.5in and H 36in. Yes, measurements sound odd, but being made to sit on piece of furniture.
> 
> The current viv is 3ft x 2ft x 2ft and is heated via a ceramic heater and I also use a uva/uvb bulb, though it's not the type that provides much heat. I'm wondering if I need to be looking at a different heating system for the new viv? This will be Fluffys forever home and I want to get the set up right before transferring them to it.
> 
> ...


Best heat source in my opinion would be a 75 watt halogen on a dimming stat and a timer at one end for you your hot spot, a 7% UV Shade dweller next to it for your UV and then a 150 watt ceramic towards the cool end on a pulse stat. 
The halogen provides the best heat/light mix imo for royals and they don’t blow as often as standard bulbs either. The ceramic will provide the ambient air as and when required.


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

Thanks @Malc I'll drop @retic666 a message. Keeping energy costs down is something I definitely want to do. I have a spare thermostat, so can double up on those. I've been concerned about using wood for heat housing, so good to hear it's OK to do. 

@StuG I'm currently using a compact uva/uvb bulb in Royal viv, as don't need the heat. 
(In my corn viv I use mercury ones, as they also provide enough heat for them). I'm not keen on the light being the main heat source for the hot end, I prefer to do day/night cycles. Those halogen bulbs are certainly cheap though.


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

Elly66 said:


> Thanks @Malc I'll drop @retic666 a message. Keeping energy costs down is something I definitely want to do. I have a spare thermostat, so can double up on those. I've been concerned about using wood for heat housing, so good to hear it's OK to do.
> 
> @StuG I'm currently using a compact uva/uvb bulb in Royal viv, as don't need the heat.
> (In my corn viv I use mercury ones, as they also provide enough heat for them). I'm not keen on the light being the main heat source for the hot end, I prefer to do day/night cycles. Those halogen bulbs are certainly cheap though.


From my understanding Compact UV bulbs are quite for provision of UV for snakes and reptiles in general, although I’m sure others can add more evidence to that. 
The whole point of having a Halogen on a timer and a dimming stat is that it gives you a day night cycle-the ceramic at the other end will kick in if the night time temps drop too low.


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

StuG said:


> From my understanding Compact UV bulbs are quite for provision of UV for snakes and reptiles in general, although I’m sure others can add more evidence to that.
> The whole point of having a Halogen on a timer and a dimming stat is that it gives you a day night cycle-the ceramic at the other end will kick in if the night time temps drop too low.


Yes, the compact are purely for the uva/uvb. I use that in the Royal viv as heat source is CHE. Bulb is on timer, not sure it needs a dimmer as not used for heat. 
My concern is providing enough heat for the bigger viv hot end. I've not needed to "heat" cooler end.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

This guy is based in the tropics and recently done a video on the thermal regulation based on his observations of the royals in his collection.... Raises some interesting points.... maybe we're getting too hung up on the values hot and cool sides need to be


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

Malc said:


> This guy is based in the tropics and recently done a video on the thermal regulation based on his observations of the royals in his collection.... Raises some interesting points.... maybe we're getting too hung up on the values hot and cool sides need to be


I’ve only got 30 seconds into the video but already quite a few inaccuracies. 
Firstly, after feeding is the only time that a snake can generate its own heat through the digestion process. 
Keeping them at an ambient temperature is denying them the ability to thermoregulate and forcing them to perform a behaviour in order to seek cooler temperatures. 
VPI and many large scale breeders of royals have rooms set up at 82’ without a hotspot for their animals. It is an optimum temperature for digestion etc but as with everything in terms of husbandry it boils down to your motivation. Do you want to battery farm royal Python eggs or do you want to enjoy an animal exhibiting as many natural behaviours as possible?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

StuG said:


> I’ve only got 30 seconds into the video but already quite a few inaccuracies.
> Firstly, after feeding is the only time that a snake can generate its own heat through the digestion process.
> Keeping them at an ambient temperature is denying them the ability to thermoregulate and forcing them to perform a behaviour in order to seek cooler temperatures.
> VPI and many large scale breeders of royals have rooms set up at 82’ without a hotspot for their animals. It is an optimum temperature for digestion etc but as with everything in terms of husbandry it boils down to your motivation. Do you want to battery farm royal Python eggs or do you want to enjoy an animal exhibiting as many natural behaviours as possible?


I can't say I fully believe everything he says, but I do like the way he challenges the common standards that we all follow. It gets you thinking. My gripe if it could be that is that in this example we're only talking about a differential of a degree or less. Now if he found the snakes temperature had risen by say three degrees then for me it would give more credence to his observations. I've taken the temperature of the substrate and the snake using a laser thermometer between feeds and got a degree difference, which could be down to the substrate I use or the fact that the heat pattern from the CHE may not produce an even pattern and I just got lucky and hit a warm part of the snake.

I posted a week or so ago about doing an experiment where I turned off two of the four CHEs in the unit in the lounge, in an off/on/off/on arrangement form top to bottom. Two of the Royals in the heated vivs spend all day under the hides at the hot end. The third in an unheated viv spends all day at the unheated viv at the cool end, whilst the forth (at the top) exhibits a normal accepted behaviour of using both ends of the viv moving a couple of times a day. They all become active once the lights go out. The two Royals in the unheated vivs (other than any penetration through the 36mm furniture board) have still fed and shed etc and otherwise show what we deem a normal behaviour. Granted we're in the middle of summer here, and the ambient room temp is typically around low to mid 20's (mind you today is an exception and its 30c in the lounge), and things may be different come mid winter, but it certainly goes against the normal "must have 32c hot spot and 26-28c cool end" that we have always followed.


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

Malc said:


> I can't say I fully believe everything he says, but I do like the way he challenges the common standards that we all follow. It gets you thinking. My gripe if it could be that is that in this example we're only talking about a differential of a degree or less. Now if he found the snakes temperature had risen by say three degrees then for me it would give more credence to his observations. I've taken the temperature of the substrate and the snake using a laser thermometer between feeds and got a degree difference, which could be down to the substrate I use or the fact that the heat pattern from the CHE may not produce an even pattern and I just got lucky and hit a warm part of the snake.
> 
> I posted a week or so ago about doing an experiment where I turned off two of the four CHEs in the unit in the lounge, in an off/on/off/on arrangement form top to bottom. Two of the Royals in the heated vivs spend all day under the hides at the hot end. The third in an unheated viv spends all day at the unheated viv at the cool end, whilst the forth (at the top) exhibits a normal accepted behaviour of using both ends of the viv moving a couple of times a day. They all become active once the lights go out. The two Royals in the unheated vivs (other than any penetration through the 36mm furniture board) have still fed and shed etc and otherwise show what we deem a normal behaviour. Granted we're in the middle of summer here, and the ambient room temp is typically around low to mid 20's (mind you today is an exception and its 30c in the lounge), and things may be different come mid winter, but it certainly goes against the normal "must have 32c hot spot and 26-28c cool end" that we have always followed.


I don’t think experiments like the one you mention have any real merit. 
A snake will tolerate sub-standard husbandry for months before displaying the impact in terms of not feeding or symptoms of an illness. I believe royals are in some ways incredibly forgiving in terms of husbandry and come from a huge geographical range and experience vast changes in terms of temp and humidity.
The way the keeper manipulates the environment in terms of hides, substrate, decor etc can override environmental changes especially in the short term. 
A royal will choose security over thermoregulation, and over feeding. That doesn’t mean that the hide is the most important part of the set up simply that predation will kill a royal quicker than illness or starvation which seems to be hard wired into them.
All of the above is no more valid than the guys opinion in the video or anyone else’s opinion but is from my own observations-definitely an interesting discussion


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Halogen spot lamp on a dimmer stat for the day time. For 6 foot vivs I use 100W Philips PAR38 IR lamps
If required can add a back up heat source for night time, a ceramic on a lower setting for example.


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

LiasisUK said:


> Halogen spot lamp on a dimmer stat for the day time. For 6 foot vivs I use 100W Philips PAR38 IR lamps
> If required can add a back up heat source for night time, a ceramic on a lower setting for example.


I want my light source to be uva/uvb and then a heat source.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Elly66 said:


> I want my light source to be uva/uvb and then a heat source.


I only wrote about heat sources. 

For a uva/uvb light source get Arcadia T5 UVB lighting


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

LiasisUK said:


> I only wrote about heat sources.
> 
> For a uva/uvb light source get Arcadia T5 UVB lighting


Yes, but they're also a source of light. The only lighting I use is uva/uvb, then a non light emitting heat source (hope that makes sense ).

I've decided I'm going to go with one of @retic666 heating panels for the heat source, then I can stick with just uva/uvb light source.


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## BenG (Jun 9, 2012)

Good choice I like those radiators.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Elly66 said:


> I've decided I'm going to go with one of @retic666 heating panels for the heat source, then I can stick with just uva/uvb light source.


That's another pack of doughnuts in commission he owes me 😉


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

BenG said:


> Good choice I like those radiators.


They do sound great and I like the fact it means I only need the one heat source, plus no guard needed. 



Malc said:


> That's another pack of doughnuts in commission he owes me 😉


If it's as good as it sounds, I'll throw another pack in 😜🤣


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## retic666 (Jan 18, 2021)

Malc said:


> That's another pack of doughnuts in commission he owes me 😉


Absolutely Malc, I’ll be bringing up about 20 packs when I next see you 🤣🤣🤣


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

retic666 said:


> Absolutely Malc, I’ll be bringing up about 20 packs when I next see you 🤣🤣🤣


Bang goes my diet !!


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