# Reptile vitiamins shocking!!



## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

Hi to everyone hope you all had a good christmas.

just wanted to start this topic on common supplements used for reptiles/amphibs and it is based on what someone else posted on here the other day that i've often thought about for a long time and it was how come wild reptile's/amphibians are bigger.

and doing some research into it it seems were not getting told the whole truth about how these vitamins/D3/calcium to phosphorus ratios are mixed and the woman who was investigating (a iguana keeper) even went on to say that half of what was meant to be in these commercial powders/liquids was NOT!!,and that these companys say things like oh well as long as theres a picture of the pet on the fancy packaging then the stuff sells..WHAT!. wether it not it does the animal in question good or not.

Also from a friend reptile vetenarion of hers they conclued that it is better to use a good human multi/mineral vitamin with a calcium supplement as these go through the rigorous test's.but also that alot of these companys who make these vitamins don't really know how they work.

I think on reading things like this i might try to make my own supplements as it seems safer in the long term using human grade vitamins minerals.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Its interesting,do you have anything to back this up?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i take vitamin D3... my doctor prescribed it...


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

I'd love to know what specific info you have to back this up, I'm sure that *at the time of packaging *the ratios stated are correct otherwise there would be a strong case for trading standards to take any company to court who deliberately miss-represented their product. 
Vitamins do degrade over time for a variety of factors so its essential to regularly replace them, this is even more important in multi vitamin powders as there are more elements to react with each other. 
Your statement about wild herps being 'bigger' isn't always true - I've seen plenty of captive herps which are much bigger than their wild counterparts - mainly due to over feeding or a staple diet which is high in fat. Wild herps also have access to a much wider range of foods which, in turn have eaten wide range of other animals/plants. Its also worth considering that wild animals have to hunt/forage for food so are likely to be leaner than a captive animal who has had food handed to it on a plate for most of its life.
I am not aware of any current regulations for the vitamin/mineral market other than the product must be as described - the substances contained within do not have to be tested as they are essentially classed as foods. 
I personally feel that its up to us as keepers to ensure that a varied balance diet is used & if supplementation is required then its up to you to ensure that you are aware of your animals individual needs and are matching this to your supplementation regime.




leonh said:


> Hi to everyone hope you all had a good christmas.
> 
> just wanted to start this topic on common supplements used for reptiles/amphibs and it is based on what someone else posted on here the other day that i've often thought about for a long time and it was how come wild reptile's/amphibians are bigger.
> 
> ...


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

I admit i don't have specific evidence to back this up it was purely through just looking on sites that were discussing the quality of some big name reptile brand supplements and the study was jsut saying don't believe always whats printed as being included always is as there not held to strict laws like they are for human consumption and this was covering a whole range of things even like the calcium sands that companys sell.

The various studys also were saying it was better to in alot cases use a human multivitamin as the ingredients were better.


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Do you know where I can find these studies or where you read about them, my mum works with vitamins & minerals for both the human & animal markets and as far as she is concerned the products are the same - i.e. the D3 in a human milti vitamin is identical to the D3 in Nutrobal etc.

I've read about 'B' grade vitamins for animal supplements from time to time but no one has ever been able to quantify what this means HOW is possible.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

Also i do agree on terms like wild populations may be bigger due to many variations like natural sunlight/diet and genral fitness water quality and gene pool,but i also sometimes think it could be how the vitamins work with each other in that they could cancel out other ones being absorbed properly if not blended well plus certain companys could just chuck in synthetic fillers like they do with protein shakes.

Another thing from reading as an exsample if green iguanas are vegaterion why do some companys market food supplements as tasting of crickets??


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

I don't know what sites they were it was just a genral google search i.e how good are reptile vitamins and the sites i was looking through was more to do with lizards like iguanas,but i when i posted i was using it as a genral covering of all exsotic pet supplements.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

changing the subject abit I think it is sometimes terms also used like when people say it doesn't need u.v like for snakes and amphibians or even inverts like some of the orb weaver spiders, i think have you asked it. esepecially as a kid when i use to catch things like this, i would usally find snakes and small common lizards in heathland basking in sunny spots.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

HABU said:


> i take vitamin D3... my doctor prescribed it...
> 
> image


I'm sure your shell is doing well, HABU! :lol2:



phelsumaman said:


> I personally feel that its up to us as keepers to ensure that a varied balance diet is used & if supplementation is required then its up to you to ensure that you are aware of your animals individual needs and are matching this to your supplementation regime.


I agree bigtime that we should be offering as varied a diet as possible, whatever make of suppliments we are using.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

When making such sweeping and serious accusations / conclusions, the least i'd expect is data to backup the claims (either directly on here or links to).

I'm sceptical of your 'suspicions' tbh.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

I must admit reading back through my posts it did seem abit sweeping from how i posted it,but the thought was more along with what i was reading on supplements for reptiles and amphibians.

and that they might not be high grade ingredients like we suspect.or are paying for. some things like dates on reptile supplements i do question though because some of the topics where on this and i for one can say there's been many times i've had to by vitamins with no sell by date.but being told there fresh from new stock.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

leonh said:


> I admit i don't have specific evidence to back this up it was purely through just looking on sites that were discussing the quality of some big name reptile brand supplements and the study was jsut saying don't believe always whats printed as being included always is as there not held to strict laws like they are for human consumption and this was covering a whole range of things even like the calcium sands that companys sell.
> 
> The various studys also were saying it was better to in alot cases use a human multivitamin as the ingredients were better.


I would agree with this.but you would expect that human multivitamins were tested to better standards than animal ones.

Reptiles are different from mammals so they need different vitamins than we do but without the knowledge on this subject I guess that we have to trust the premade vitamins.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

yes i can understand the human grade being more tested too,but when i first posted this topic i felt sorry for my frogs that in my best intentions i could be harming them long term and i was not trying to cause affence to anyone,but just hopeing to make people aware that what we all buy with best intentions may not help that much at all, while in the meantime making some of these companys rich.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Fair enough.
I think that you can help by giving a varied diet and feeding them wild caught insects if possible.I believe that wild insects are far better than any commercially bred food.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

leonh said:


> yes i can understand the human grade being more tested too,but when i first posted this topic i felt sorry for my frogs that in my best intentions i could be harming them long term and i was not trying to cause affence to anyone,but just hopeing to make people aware that what we all buy with best intentions may not help that much at all, while in the meantime making some of these companys rich.


Leon,hey mate, i can't see this with at least Repashy anyway,there may well be something you have unearthed here,that might be applicable to other brands although i would think that there would be much more to be lost by falsifying ingredients than by taking a cheep option,trading standards etc. But folks notice better egg viability etc with repashy and i guess this is why so many swear by this stuff,and we froggers are recommending these products to each other,because we see the results. Mate you are obviously concearned,and i also know how important it is to you,as you go out of your way nutritionwise to get your frogs what you think is the best you can do for them.As i think Ben has already said it is real important to keep these products refridgerated and also to use them pretty fresh,we replace at 6 months and finally keep the pouch sealed.We also store them in a sealed container
Mate have a chat with Allen Repashy,I'm sure talking to him will alay your fears,he's easily contacted,then you can go back to making the rest of your guys diet topdraw
best
Stu


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

Hi stu , i do admit things probally have moved on alot and the topics i was reading where picked off the internet and could be quite old for all i know..i must learn how to share links and post quotes as im terrible with computers lol.

but i think at first when reading some topics it worried me as to how some of these supplements may work over the longer time,but that in its self i suppose is not known yet and i hope alot of research gets done in this area.i myself am using repashy calcium plus at the moment plus two other brands and hope they will benefit my frogs.

when i also posted it was sweeping and don't think it was needed,but i think i did this in anger from a topic on a liquid vitamin from this woman doing the research and when she questioned a source of the manufacturer of it they said as long as it has the picture of the animal on it who cares basically how it works or not.

And i know alot of us vary our pets diet so hope this can balance things a bit more.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

leonh said:


> Hi stu , i do admit things probally have moved on alot and the topics i was reading where picked off the internet and could be quite old for all i know..i must learn how to share links and post quotes as im terrible with computers lol.
> 
> but i think at first when reading some topics it worried me as to how some of these supplements may work over the longer time,but that in its self i suppose is not known yet and i hope alot of research gets done in this area.i myself am using repashy calcium plus at the moment plus two other brands and hope they will benefit my frogs.
> 
> ...


yeah i'm equally hopeless,and its so easy for things to come out wrong with this medium,i would still track down Allen repashy leon,there will be specific questions you'll have he can answer so well, 
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Allen is a member on here and on Planted Habitats, and he's usually more than willing to answer questions about his products. He answers some questions about his Calcium Plus product for example here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/720992-repashy-calcium-plus-dart-frogs-2.html.

I am not going to make sweeping claims like "It's the best product on the market", as although I believe this to be true I can't prove this. What I will say is, a lot of dart keepers use it and since doing so have had much better results.

Ade


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

thanks again stu for your help,i think it is not always best to post things in a knackered state jumping to conclusions:lol2:,but i will get round to contacting Allen as it's nice to learn things.

so again thanks stu and i hope your little fella's keep doing well for you take care.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

Just incase anyone was intrested i went through the history and this was the site in question sorry guys i can't post links not very good with computers but here goes vitamins and supplements (www.greenigsociety.org/vitamins.htm.

Also the main topic of intrest when i was reading was at the bottom link Mellisa kaplan.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

This really is a minefield and dont think that unless we are biochemists or nutritionlsts we can really understand it.
The only light that I can throw on it is as hobbyists we are keeping and breeding our animals for longer than we did even twenty years ago.Therefore I would deduce that their nutrition and habitat needs are getting better as we go on.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

yeah i think things are alot better now and hope they keep improving,i think even in some books from early/mid 90's and the troubles they had with mantaning pets let alone breeding just shows how far we have all come.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I checked that site, viewed the html for the page. Meta data says it was written around 1999, so most definitely very out of date.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Melissa Kaplan's care sheets were innovative in their time, but they are rather out of date nowadays.


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Melissa Kaplan's take on this is OKish, but is not entirely scientifically correct (and that is not because of the date, it has some common misconceptions still at large today).

The bit about the use of UVB light is a bit duff really. 
UV will not make Vitamin D3 (calecalciferol) in the skin (apart from limited UVA and UVB stimulated isomerisation of some storage products), and having Vitamin D3 (calecalciferol) is of little use unless it is converted into something useful anyway.
But that get's a little complex to put into a post here (without doing a thesis or diagrams).

I'm also wary about what is meant by 'low-grade' ingredients.

High quantities of vitamins in food supplement is not good either. 
Dosing with vitamin D3 (in whatever form) is potentially damaging to health as direct dosing by-passes the bodies ability to control light-catalysed control system (the light catalysted system of producing D3 has a safe guard to prevent over-production).

Nutrition is not based upon fixating on a single factor: life is way too complex for that. Unbalanced diets do little for health. Unbalanced environmental factors or activities do little for health.

You can put as much 'calcium' as you like into kids yoghurt drinks, but if you then give them a can of coke, drive them school rather than let them excercise and have them stuck at a computer game all day to never see the sunlight, then that calcium is going to go to waste.

As for the symptoms of calcium deficiency, for example,.....deformed or weak bones is just one symptom that has too much focus for good health diagnosis.
A frog, for example, may start to show 'twitching' or neurological signs of deficiency long before it's bones look like knots. 
Focusing on singular dietary items and on the 'standard' MBD symptoms work against good health care.

ian


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Ian,I think that the crux of the matter is do we really know what vitamins reptiles and amphibians need?
I am interested in your explanation about dietery D3 because I always thought this was the case.However, I was told on here that it was not really possible to overdose with one leading brand of supplement plus U.V.B.light,which makes me think that there isn`t much D3 in the supplement.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

colinm said:


> Ian,I think that the crux of the matter is do we really know what vitamins reptiles and amphibians need?
> I am interested in your explanation about dietery D3 because I always thought this was the case.However, I was told on here that it was not really possible to overdose with one leading brand of supplement plus U.V.B.light,which makes me think that there isn`t much D3 in the supplement.


I don't think you understood the overdosing thing. It is COMPLETELY possible to overdose with supplements, with our without UVB. The UVB however wont cause the overdose. In other words if you haven't overdosed the supplements the UVB wont top this up to the point of overdose. As in the UVB doesn't come into it, overdose would be solely from the supplementation.

Having UVB WONT prevent overdosing occuring if you overdose supplements though.

Hope this helps.

Ade


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Yes, I understand this .But why give D3 in supplements then if your supplying it through U.V.B? 
Surely there is no necessity as you cannot overdose through light sources alone. It is much safer to provide through the U.V.B. light.It always amazes me that in Germany and Holland some lizard keepers use supplements rather than spend £40 or £50 for lights when this is say a third of the cost of the lizards.
On the original question I am not surprised that there is controversy with herp.supplementation.There is enough conflicting evidence with human vitamins and supplements.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

1) Not all reptiles and amphibians can get enough D3 solely from UVB, most notably some nocturnal species.

2) There is a much higher risk of them not getting enough D3 by relying solely on UVB than there is of giving them too much using supplements.

3) GOOD supplements contain a LOT more than just calcium and D3, they usually also contain important things like vitamin A for one.

Ade


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

You cannot overdose the vitamin D3 production by over-exposure to UVB: for one thing, UVB does not make vitamin D3 (apart from a small amount of UVA and UVB stimulated effect on some storage isomers), and mainly because once the skin has enough pre-vitamin D3 (whatever 'enough' is) then additional UVB exposure will convert the pre-vitamin D3 into storage isomers (ie it is a self protection against overdosing).

To convert to vitamin D3, the main light you need is infra red or other heat source......else the animal would be waiting too too long to have any decent amount converted. 
That is, in short, heat is the rate limiting step in the light-stimulated pathway of vitamin d3 production in the skin (the UVB part is very rapid).

Overdosing by diet, however, is the main problem as dietary dosing by-passes the bodies normal control systems. Vitamin D3 and its biological active compounds are harmful.

Vitamin D3 can cause acute, cumulative and chronic toxic effects. 
The acute toxic effects are easily measured and documented, but the long-term effects are not easy to measure as, such things as, LD50s have no meaning for non-acute poisoning.

Different species of reptile have differing skin thicknesses and biochemistry in the skin......now, the main principles are all very similar but some species have modifications that would imply that they may be poised to utilise slightly different wavelengths of UV light: 
there are some species that have a high amount of storage isomers that are primed to be activated by UVA light, whilst other are activated by UVB light of a longer wavelength than that required in the main pre-vitamin d3 synthesis. Those modified pathways could well explain some of the observations of nocturnal or crepuscular species requirements of UVB 'peak' wavelength light.

Vitamin A is also another vitamin poised for overdosing (and others are also poised for acute toxicity).

ian


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ian, that's a nice post and everything, but did you intend it to look like you were telling people not to use dietry supplements? If so, sorry but I can't agree with you there. I somehow doubt you meant it to come across like this however, and were merely explaining that UV lighting wont cause overdosing. Problem is, it comes over more as you throwing your hands up in horror at the possibility that you can overdose using supplements.

Yes, you can overdose with supplements. However you have to be a muppet to do so. It's far more likely to be harmful NOT using supplements.

I have read very FEW account of people overdosing supplements. I have however read a multitude of accounts of problems caused where supplements were NOT used.

My fear here Ian is that your post, instead of demonstrating why folks shouldn't worry that UV lighting will cause an overdose, will leave people like Colin determined not to use dietry supplementation because they confuse the RISK of overdosing from such with it been a definite. You risk been run over every time you cross the road, but you need to do it, you do do it, and the majority of the time you don't get run over because you follow simple rules for crossing the road.

Ade


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

If I meant for people not to use supplements for reptiles and amphibians then I'd have said it.

What people need to be aware of is to use supplements with caution and not as a be-all-and-end-all saviours.

I have seen many a chameleon with major vitamin overdose problems.

There also needs to be care with balancing food.

There is a belief by some people, and let's not mince words here, who act like muppets keeping reptiles who believe that you can simply shove a 10% UV fluorescent light in a viv and that's it, or who think that dusting crickets will do, etc etc......yet not realising the importance of a carefully selected diet with supplements plus some appropriate heat.

What I was trying to convey, in an admittedly too brief overview, was stress that UVB does not do it all, just as throwing loads of vitamins aimlessly at food does not do it all.

If I were talking about humans in the free world taking vitamins as a supplement in their own diet......then I'd say 'eat properly....as you have a choice of food' (reptiles don's have that freedom of choice in captivity).

ian


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Just to put my penultimate post into a picture....But only in overview pathway mode.
(yeah, I know....I used clip-art of some human body parts for this. A bit of cheat, but I wasn't going to draw frog organs  ).


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Wait a minute here,I do use dietry supplementation ,I was just trying to find out why preople think that it is so necessary and the differences betwen the various supplements.When we use a supplement we are in the manufacturers hands and we dont know how much the animal really gets or to what ratios.I personally dont think that it is as easy as putting a few crickets in a bag with some vitamins and then feeding them to the animals.It makes us feel better but does t necessarily do the animals much good? If you can`t overdose with the premade supplements are they of any good because the vitamins must surely be in so low doses?

From the ultraviolet/D3 point of view I prefer to give it to my animals in the form of light either by daylight or by tubes.It really is better as you can see the lizards have brighter,more natural colours and their behaviour is more natural.Having said this there are many hobbyists who just use dietry supplementation


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Seems that you beat me to Ian and in a more scientific way.

On the lighting issue its interesting to see with a meter how much difference(more) ultraviolet the sun emits on a dull day than the best artificial tube.I keep Lacertids and if you keep them indoors they will turn turquoise but outside they will revert to the natural green.

Its not as easy as this with lots of tropical frogs such as Dartfrogs as we cannot put them outside so we tend to have to rely on vitamin supplements.


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

colinm said:


> Wait a minute here,I do use dietry supplementation ,I was just trying to find out why preople think that it is so necessary and the differences betwen the various supplements.When we use a supplement we are in the manufacturers hands and we dont know how much the animal really gets or to what ratios.I personally dont think that it is as easy as putting a few crickets in a bag with some vitamins and then feeding them to the animals.It makes us feel better but does t necessarily do the animals much good? If you can`t overdose with the premade supplements are they of any good because the vitamins must surely be in so low doses?
> 
> From the ultraviolet/D3 point of view I prefer to give it to my animals in the form of light either by daylight or by tubes.It really is better as you can see the lizards have brighter,more natural colours and their behaviour is more natural.Having said this there are many hobbyists who just use dietry supplementation


I certainly would not be referring to you in _my _comments.
It is good to tease out opinions and to work towards attempting to review 'myths' or 'understanding' by whatever means is available.

ian


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It was Ade who said that about me Ian,you are a quicker poster than me ,so a couple of your comments got in between us. :2thumb:
At the risk of startingarguments with others on here what are your views on ultraviolet light for Dartfrogs?I am really not sure.


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Ian,
you've made some excellent points on this subject, are you able to point me in the direction of any recent research on this subject? 

From my perspective none of us can really ever provide a perfectly balanced diet combined with ideal level of lighting but we can strive to do our best. When I first started keeping reptiles there wer still people using blacklights with just mealworms as a staple for diurnal lizards! Things have obviously come a long way but there are still a lot of gaps in our knowledge. 

I'm curious about Colins last question - what are your thoughts on UV for darts or amphibians in general? Most 'phibs are nocturnal and by design most hide away during the day. My personal preference would be to always to use UV along with careful supplementation. Regardless of whether or not UV is used getting a good, varied diet into your feeders (as well as using a wide range of feeders) is essential & I firmly believe that the more varied the diet the higher the likelyhood of a healthier animal


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

I'll see if I can muster up a few recent research papers on this (I have them on my other harddrive....and have not unpacked it since moving house....laziness and being recent grand-dad helps my laziness ).

UVA/UVB light is a problematic area with dart frogs.
There is some research that is showing that in recent years the UVB light reaching the earth has changed. It could be presumed that dart frogs have evolved to use/exploit or whatever a certain intensity and range of UVB wavelengths as terrestrial UVB levels, but are not necessarily poised to deal physiologically with the present changes in UVB hitting the land.
There have been noted changes in behaviour in dart frogs that coincide with changes in terrestrial UVB levels.

Ordinarily, the exposure of the precursor to pre-vitamin D3 at 295nm needs only a brief period of exposure. The more transparent the skin, the less exposure required.
Dart frogs do not have the type of thick skin that we see in, say, Bearded dragons. That would indicate quite a transparency to UVB light, and (hence) exposure to UVB at 295nm wavelength may only need to be very brief.

Once that brief zap has been experienced, then the products are stored for future use by the animal.

There are also problems with egg development under certain wavelengths of UVB light.

So....what is my opinion on using UV with dart frogs?
One thing that I reject is the theory that dart frogs do not need UVB on the basis of them being forest-floor species etc. That is not a reason at all. 

I have some tanks that use UVB, and some that do not, and some that have monthly zaps of UVB (and that is part of my research).

I use nutribol or ZolCal for dart frogs (with care of course  )

The biggest problem in recommending UVB lighting is in the practicalities of setting-up a UV system in a dart frog tanks. 
If someone is going to experience problems in setting up a _safe _UVB system, then it is probably best to follow a strict vitamin dosing regimen.

One of the best systems that I have found is to use a zap-once-a-month using a mercury vapour lamp (MVB) for about 30 to 60 minutes. 
Now, you need to have the lamp set at least 4 to 6 feet away from the floor of the viv for frog safety. It is quite an awkward system, and generally I would not recommend it off-the-cuff in view of the care needed when using MVBs anyway.

Angle of lighting also has effects on dart frogs. I have found that dart frogs receiving UVA and white light from a low angle as produced by morning or sun-set sunlight tend to do much better. I should look more into that a wee bit though.

This is quite a fascinating area that needs loads more research.....but it is only the data that needs collating, it is also then subject to our interpretation of that data.

Ian


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Ian please can you explain to me a few things ?
To the casual observer you would think that ground dwelling species do not require ultraviolet because the canopies are intense that not much can reach the forest floor.Why is it that important? 
I have seen that hobbyists on the continent use mercury vapour bulbs for short periods each week.Why use these and not say tubes for the usual 8 or 10 hours per day?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

colinm said:


> It was Ade who said that about me Ian,you are a quicker poster than me ,so a couple of your comments got in between us. :2thumb:
> At the risk of startingarguments with others on here what are your views on ultraviolet light for Dartfrogs?I am really not sure.


No I said nothing of the sort. I said you seemed confused by the whole issue, and seemed to be thinking that you didn't need dietry supplements if using UV lighting. I also said that Ian's first response could be easily misunderstood as supporting this. Please though Colin, don't look for an argument where there isn't one. You may intend to just be pulling out information for others, but when I read your posts they make you look confused about all this.

Ian, no disrespect to you, your posts are accurate, however all I can see is they're just confusing things even more. You could have just posted that supplements are just 1 part of meeting the needs of our amphibians, and that no one thing is a fix all solution. This is after all what your posts boild down to, and I am in complete agreement with. Although accurate and factual, I can't help but think that a lot of newbies will completely grasp the wrong end of the stick when reading them. But then I have long believed that in hobbies you have to be careful NOT to get hung up too much on the science for risk of getting caught up in the detail and missing the bigger picture.

Colin, you're making the same mistake a LOT of keepers make, that been thinking that NO UV can reach ground level in a rainforest. The truth is a really simple one, that the sun is far more powerful than some people seem to understand, and CAN punch through an amazing quantity of shade. Then there are the gaps in the tree canopy, not to mention clearings. If you watch enough Eden channel, you'll soon see poison dart frogs nowhere near where people seem to think they live. The assumption is that they live in thick rainforest, where as many live in clearings, or at the least visit them. Take a look at habitat photos on sites like dendrobates.org, very few of them are deep in dense rainforest. Those that are have gaps in the canopy, hence there is plant growth at ground level, so there is always somewhere a frog can go to get more exposure than it would living in total shade. Like many species that live in areas with lower UV penetration, they have also adapted to utilise much lowever levels.

Anurans are amazingly adaptable, heck there is even a toad that goes rigid when threatened and bounces away like a rubber ball.

As to UV with dart frogs, seriously you wont get 2 answers the same. Some say that constant high levels of UV are harmful, and can give researched based evidence for this, and so use short periods of exposure. Some don't use UV at all, and rely entirely on supplements, citing years of success using this method as justification. Still others use UV lighting 12 hours a day, and point out that if the frogs have had enough they move. That's the thing with darts, it seems that sometimes there isn't a right way and a wrong way. What they all have in common is that they rely heavily on varied diets and dietry supplementation, or in some cases supplementation via the skin even.

Oh and getting back to an earlier point about the size of darts, my biggest tincs also have the largest amount of space. They are 2 frogs in a 60cm x45cm x60cm exo terra. I doubt very much if the larger size is just a coincidence, given they are fed the same as my other darts and get the same supplements etc. They're NOT wild caught either.

Anyway, that's mostly off topic, as the original point was that supplements weren't good. I think it's pretty well known that this was once probably true, but that they have come on a long way since then. Not least in products like Repashy Calcium Plus. They CAN still be overdosed, that's never going to change. However knowledge in this area has come on a lot, and folks know now that they need more than just Vit D3 and calcium. Vit A has gained more importance, as have beta caretenoids etc etc. The importance of varied diets has also come to the fore, amongst dart keepers at least. The problem is, a LOT of the stuff on the internet is OLD. It was good in it's day, but the problem is it doesn't get updated or removed when it's day is done. The same is true with books. You have to learn to research more widely, learn to recognise old information, and also information that is pure ego based as well.

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Thanks Ian, the MVB method you describe Has been used by a number of zoos for quite some time (I know bristol zoo, Cotswold wildlife park and London zoo were doing just this in the early 90's) this isnt practical for most of us though so my next best option is a UV tube. What harm, if any do you think a 6% UV tube could do through optiwhite glass for 10 hours per day? 
Ben


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Well said Ade


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

colinm said:


> Ian please can you explain to me a few things ?
> To the casual observer you would think that ground dwelling species do not require ultraviolet because the canopies are intense that not much can reach the forest floor.Why is it that important?
> I have seen that hobbyists on the continent use mercury vapour bulbs for short periods each week.Why use these and not say tubes for the usual 8 or 10 hours per day?


It is true that the more energetic wavelengths are easily absorbed or intensity reduced by such things as dust, angle of the sun, latitude, longitude etc. We also know that most UVB is easily absorbed by standard glass, but some UVB and most UVA can easily penetrate standard glass.

Now, the sun at a low angle in the sky will result in quite a low intensity of UVB at wavelength 295nm (the area of peak pre-vitamin D3 synthesis).

So...yes, one would think that creatures of the forest floor or nocturnal or crepuscular creatures will receive little UVB at 295nm: 
and that is probably very true. 
But, receiving 8 hours a day of high intensity UVB at 295nm is not necessarily necessary (is that poor english? ummm...must be the cognac/port mix I'm drinking now) for pre-vitamin D3 production good enough to sustain life. 

Tachysterol 3 may play a very important role in this......it uses UVA to convert it to Vitamin D3. It is also highly reactive, and therefore it may take only a smidgen of UVA to stimulate conversion to vitamin d3.

But, in animal health (particularly amphibians and reptiles), light of the UVA and UVB wavelengths have other effects besides being used in calcium control.
Behaviour is also stimulated by these wavelengths of light.
It is very noticeable to see changes in behaviour when a reptile gets a good dose of UVA.

In the forest, it is not a complete blanket of UV blockers. There are open spaces and angled light (albeit low-level UVB) can penetrate.

As for using MVB vs fluorescent tubes.....it is a matter of shear differences in quality and intensity. The MVB will give a better spectrum on the whole...including better white light and UVA and IR.
You could use fluorescent lamps, but I personally find it easier to load the MVBs above my vivs...and get very good results from that.

ian


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

colinm said:


> I would agree with this.but you would expect that human multivitamins were tested to better standards than animal ones.
> 
> Reptiles are different from mammals so they need different vitamins than we do but without the knowledge on this subject I guess that we have to trust the premade vitamins.


 
you will be amazed at just how familiar our nutritional needs are with reptiles.
much of the research done on animals was for our benefit.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Ade,I think that you misunderstand me.With the D3/ultraviolet situation I am happier to give this to my animals through lighting rather than supplements,not for other vitamins.

I have seen the programmes about the rainforest,so I realise that the sun is always stronger there than here.You only have to go to Spain or Greece in August to realise this.So it makes sense that areas nearer the equator have stronger sunlight and hence higher U.V.B.I have also watched some of the Tropical experience DVDS which give forest floor temperatures but not Ultraviolet levels unfortunately.Whilst Dartforgs are diurnal they dont particularly bask .Take for instance European Treefrogs or Edible Frogs they bask so you would expect them to require higher. U.V.B.levels,although they come from a more northerly latitude.That was merely my question.

Vitamin supplements have come on a great deal since the old days of Vionate which was used for every vertebrate.But who is to say that Repashy is better than Nekton,or Repton is better than Nutrobal?Most people in the hobby do not know enough and are led either by what their local shop sells or by the best marketing.As far as I have seen people have their favourites and tend to stick with them.I have yet to find a site online that asesses each manufacturer.The other thing that I suspect is that we are sold a supplement that is a general supplement ,but the dietry needs of say a Green Iguana are different to a Leopard Gecko.This is understandable because manufactures cannot make a new supplement for each species.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> you will be amazed at just how familiar our nutritional needs are with reptiles.
> much of the research done on animals was for our benefit.


That is true but I doubt that it is with reptiles,more likely mice or rats.


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Excessively low or high exposure to UVB is often detrimental to the health of most animals that I know of.

Really, when giving UV light to any reptile or amphibian, the amount of UV light given should be geared to that particular species.

There we have a problem.......the database of species specific requirements is not comprehensive. But there is a wide-grouped generalisation available for reptiles. Amphibians are still a bit left out to some extent (but it is getting better).

We know that if Madagascan tomato frogs are given vitamin d3 supplements but no UVB at all then their bone ossification is far more advanced than, say, the Amazon milk frog has if kept under the same conditions. The milk frog is known to exploit natural sunlight.

Basking is a funny one.....I don't believe that a species with a high sensitivity to UVB (eg transparent skin) needs to 'bask' to capture the light. The reaction is extremely rapid anyway. 
Basking may well be more associated with raising the temperature high enough to attain maximum conversion to vitamin D3 in a time period of use to the animal rather than capturing UVB rays. So, my opinion would be that lack of basking is no indicator of a requirement for UVB (although I'm sure a sun-bathing addict might tell us that they damage their body to 'soak up the UV rays for their health' :gasp.

This is a complex and confusing topic, but one worth pursuing in our general aim to improve animal health and to gain a better understanding of animals needs.

ian


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

colinm said:


> That is true but I doubt that it is with reptiles,more likely mice or rats.


 
I understand and your right, but the nutritonal values vitamin needs are still essentially the same for reptiles as they are for other animals (of course it can differ from species to species of what they need the most, which is what I think was what you were saying?

I was just adding the next part in for completion more than anything.: victory:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

colinm said:


> Ade,I think that you misunderstand me.With the D3/ultraviolet situation I am happier to give this to my animals through lighting rather than supplements,not for other vitamins.
> 
> I have seen the programmes about the rainforest,so I realise that the sun is always stronger there than here.You only have to go to Spain or Greece in August to realise this.So it makes sense that areas nearer the equator have stronger sunlight and hence higher U.V.B.I have also watched some of the Tropical experience DVDS which give forest floor temperatures but not Ultraviolet levels unfortunately.Whilst Dartforgs are diurnal they dont particularly bask .Take for instance European Treefrogs or Edible Frogs they bask so you would expect them to require higher. U.V.B.levels,although they come from a more northerly latitude.That was merely my question.
> 
> Vitamin supplements have come on a great deal since the old days of Vionate which was used for every vertebrate.But who is to say that Repashy is better than Nekton,or Repton is better than Nutrobal?Most people in the hobby do not know enough and are led either by what their local shop sells or by the best marketing.As far as I have seen people have their favourites and tend to stick with them.I have yet to find a site online that asesses each manufacturer.The other thing that I suspect is that we are sold a supplement that is a general supplement ,but the dietry needs of say a Green Iguana are different to a Leopard Gecko.This is understandable because manufactures cannot make a new supplement for each species.


I haven't misunderstood Colin, that is exactly the problem, in that you WONT manage to get enough D3 into an amphibian or reptile using UV lighting tubes as the only means. This is just my opinion however.

Regarding Repashy, amongst dart keepers it is considered better through experiential research. As in folks have used it and obtained much improved results over other supplements, with improved colour, breeding and a reduction in the incidence of SLS. All important markers for dart frogs at least. The other plus with it is the maker will tell you EXACTLY what goes into it. He is completely open and is one of the few manufacturers who actually responds to feedback from hobbyists, and not just to 'professional laboratory tests'. These so called lab tests are a pet hate of mine as they are rarely long term, rarely mirror real world usage etc. I can tell you now, you wont find ONE person who has switched to Repashy and has been using it for a while who wont tell you it's the best they have ever used. Oh and the risk of overdosing with it is reduced because it is formulated for use WITH EVERY FEED. It's not the be all and end all by any means though, a good varied diet is still very important. Heck, I even mist with RO that has BSP vitamin drops added. I currently have 5 tinctorius Regina tads in water with back legs, along with quite a lot of French Guyana tads, and my pumilio San Cristobal have started breeding for me as well, the female transporting the tads (seen her doing it). I doubt any of them get any UV to be honest as they are in ENT vivs (the Regina are in an Exoterra covered in twin wall polycarb, which does NOT pass UV), yet they are still doing very very well for me.

I am just trying to keep this on topic, that supplements have improved a LOT since many of those "rep vits suck" articles were published. But for the record, I do actually use very low levels of UV with some of my frogs (optiwhite vivs, BioVital tube). I would say though that using a clip lamp with a 12% bulb for say 1 hour a day would be better for darts, allowing them a basking period rather than constant exposure to medium to high (as in rep tubes, not talking about the mega high type stuff here) levels of UV. NOT my idea by the way, pretty sure it's an idea pioneered by a chap called Mworks, or his dad.

Ade


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