# Pet Shops That Sell Live Mice as Food?



## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

Are there any shops that will sell you live mice to feed to snakes and spiders? I know a friend who has a snake and the shops in Birmingham refuse to sell him live mice because over the past 5 years he has burnt his bridges with them and they clocked on to what he was doing.

I am getting an adult T on saturday, which also likes the odd mice.

Any info?


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

why cant he feed frozen?


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## Sollytear (Aug 7, 2008)

I thought it was illegal in england to do that.


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

Not sure. Might be.

His snake don't eat the frozen ones, just looks at them. Sometimes it will eat them but sometimes they just remain there. As soon as you put a live one in, the snake will have it.

A mouse is food in the animal kingdom, so why take that away from the animal? Even frozen ones are purposely killed to feed so I don't see why they don't just keep them alive. I'm sure most reps would rather have live then dead mice.


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## Lizard Loft (Mar 1, 2008)

someone did a thread on this subject a while back, and i think (ull have to check) that it is not actually illegal just frowned upon and discouraged


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

Official response from RSPCA on using live animals as food:



> Thank you for your enquiry, please accept our apologies for the delay in replying.
> 
> Unfortunately the legal position regarding feeding live vertebrates to snakes is not clear. The RSPCA has been successful in taking some prosecutions on this sort of issue but not in others. The difficulty we face is that of proving unnecessary suffering to either the snake or indeed the prey animal.
> 
> ...


As far as your T goes just feed it live insects, it doesn't need mice be they live or dead.


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## Chance (Jun 14, 2008)

No need to check. It isnt illegal people just dont like it. The RSPCA will try and do you for cruelty to the mouse but if the predator doesnt feed they will do you for cruelty to that instead.

If you are going to buy mice to feed live occasionally just dont let anyone know.

Cheers
Rob


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## sab6517 (Sep 14, 2007)

Adult Ts will take defrosts quite happily, especially is warmed a little first, mine get the odd one if a snake choses not to take.

It is difficult when a snake wont feed, I have one Emerald that is the only one in a big collection that refuses anything dead and is a handful to hand feed !!!


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

I do believe the RSPCA will try to prosecute you for it...there is a thread on it in the Snake section if you want to know more.

As for feeding a live mouse to a spider, why dont you just give it a defrosted one? As a mouse should ONLY be given to a T as an occasional 'treat' then i see no reason why you would want to live feed...firstly becasue of the RSPCA issue but also because of the risk of injury to the T. If it refuses a defrosted mouse then simply go back to crickets/locusts etc...no need to encourage live feeding of mice to a T.

Live feeding is/should only really be used behind closed doors as one of the last resorts if you have a non-feeding snake.

Hope that helps a bit : victory:


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

Gosh that is so silly. Taking away an animals natural behaviour to hunt live food. Thats cruel.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

People keep mice as pets though, I think that's the problem. If you mentioned live feeding over on a mouse or other furry related forum you'd get endless abuse. You keep geckos... would you feed geckos to your T?


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## taylor (Aug 20, 2008)

cascadingstylez said:


> Gosh that is so silly. Taking away an animals natural behaviour to hunt live food. Thats cruel.


 
in that case you could say its cruel to take a snake out of an environment where it can naturally hunt.

i think the fact that your placing a live mouse in a small enclosure, where it has no chance of escape and will be very stressed makes it cruel,


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> Gosh that is so silly. Taking away an animals natural behaviour to hunt live food. Thats cruel.


Erm, I think the point is that although, yes, a T might come across a mouse in it's natural setting, it wouldn't have it every day and that doesn't mean it's good for it. Kebabs would grow on trees if we were meant to eat them.

I appreciate that everything needs to eat, and that snakes, especially of a certain size, require rodents to eat as this is their natural prey - I don't think mice are a common prey for T's which would be more suited to insects or things more plentiful that it would come across every day.

Do you just want to give it a mouse so you can put it on YouTube? That's about the only reason I could think of for someone wanting to put a little mouse through that fear...:whip:


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

_simon_ said:


> People keep mice as pets though, I think that's the problem. If you mentioned live feeding over on a mouse or other furry related forum you'd get endless abuse.


Yeah thats true. But if you mention Beef on a vegetarian forum they would abuse you.

I got no problem with keeping them as pets, mice are cool, I had a few as a kid, but I also know they are food in the animal kingdom.

I suppose many on here would kick up a fuss if an Eagle owner fed his bird T's and Lizards (as they eat them in the wild).

Touchy subject I suppose.


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

Grumpymouth said:


> Do you just want to give it a mouse so you can put it on YouTube? That's about the only reason I could think of for someone wanting to put a little mouse through that fear...:whip:


No, thats cruel doing it soley for the purpose of pleasing others.

I didn't say a T could be fed on them daily. I meant as a treat sometimes.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

_simon_ said:


> People keep mice as pets though, I think that's the problem. If you mentioned live feeding over on a mouse or other furry related forum you'd get endless abuse. You keep geckos... would you feed geckos to your T?


Good point Simon - as you can see I keep furries which is why I object to this, I wouldn't ever keep a snake because I couldn't bear to have to feed it mice, even purpose-killed ones. 

Good on the pet shop that won't sell them - that is a responsible decision they've made :2thumb:


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## reef (Jan 4, 2008)

my seemanii ,haplopelma and p. murinas all take pinkies (defrosts) just drop in front of them when out at night and whoosh !!
i give them 1 pinky each once a month locust and crickets all other times


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

Grumpymouth said:


> Kebabs would grow on trees if we were meant to eat them.


:mf_dribble:

The *only* reason i can see for even considering live feeding is as previously mentioned...last resort for a non-feeding snake.

I actually have a Royal who hasn't eaten for months and am dreading the thought of it going as far as having to try live feeding, i really dont fancy the whole idea!!

But anyway, i cant think of any reason why a T should be offered a live mouse so you dont need to worry about finding a pet shop who will sell you a mouse for this purpose.


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

Grow up mate, owning a PET is about giving a suitable AND SAFE environment. In th wild, the prey has equal chance in the fight as the predator. It can flee
This whole argument/ point just shows your bias tbh, there is no need WHATSO EVER to feed live, only you get somethign from it, the T will be more happy to eat a de-frosted prey, same meal, less energy expended, less hassle, more mutrients absorbed..
You say loose natural behaviour, great, well find me a study into tarantulas that prey on vertebrates in the wild, Or that require vertebrate meat in order to remain alive. you wont find any... why? because they dont! some will occasional have one stroll into it but they DONT loose natural behaviour because they arent fed live rodents, lol thats stupid, they are trigger/ response based and that means instinct.. They will not loose their ability unless its geneticly evolved out... which isnt gonna happen an time soon
Again, you say its cruel not to, but what about the bloody fact your killing another animal for nothing more than yourself.
come on, grow up and do some research before silly posts


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> :mf_dribble:
> 
> The *only* reason i can see for even considering live feeding is as previously mentioned...last resort for a non-feeding snake.
> 
> ...


as far as im concerned, he shouldnt even be asking about it, it shows his thoughts. Probably will end up buying live at somepoint 'just for excitment' 
so wrong:bash:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Sick perversion to want to feed live to a T or a snake to be honest. In the wild its different as the prey animal has a chance to get away.In captivity its just for peoples sick pleasure as the prey animal doesnt stand a chance


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

Why are people getting aggressive? Go back to my first post, and the main point of the question was 'my friends snake'. I added the T in there because I am getting one. The main focus was on the snake not the T. So please don't use the T to base your arguments for not live feeding.

I have nothing against live feeding and nobodys comments would change my mind. I am open about it, because there is nothing wrong with feeding a snake a live mouse in my opinion (remember my opinion).

Roaches are nice pets to some, but they are food for others. A horse (which I have eaten) is very tastey abroad, you mention it in the UK and people uproar. Dog meat, never tried it? I have, I didn't like it, but its eated in parts of Asia.

We have no problems eating animals, granted they are killed peacefully (at least we hope) but they are bred as food. We catch fish and cook them near enough alive. Nothing wrong with it there.

These are my opinions and I am not using any of the above to base an argument I am just stating my opinions.


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## davehuston (Sep 11, 2007)

_simon_ said:


> Official response from RSPCA on using live animals as food:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as your T goes just feed it live insects, it doesn't need mice be they live or dead.


Ummm...... That response makes me believe they don't really have a clue. It is illegal to feed anything with a backbone to anything else with a back bone live. It can only be done here legally if it is a life or death situation. :2thumb:


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

I personally do not think live feeding is right, whether to a snake or a spider. 
As soon as the animal shows fear, and knows what is going to happen I draw the line.
I watched a rat get shoved in to a snakes viv in a German reptile shop, it was shaking all over. The poor thing huddled at the back of the viv, and there it stayed, a shaking ball of fur.

You stated that your friends snake WILL take f&t mice, so why does he even need to feed live?
I guess you both have never seen a snake when a mouse or rat has fought back?
Cause its enough to put anyone off of live feeding.
A snake with its flesh ripped away does not look so appealing.

And as for saying mention beef on a vegetarian forum... 
I am a veggie, and although I don't eat meat, or anything that contains meat products... 
Does not mean I will flip at someone for saying they eat it.
I will happily cook and handle meat, you have to if you have animals or family/friends that need feeding.
I just don't expect people to say I am stupid for not eating it, as I would not say that about someone eating meat.


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> Sick perversion to want to feed live to a T or a snake to be honest. In the wild its different as the prey animal has a chance to get away.In captivity its just for peoples sick pleasure as the prey animal doesnt stand a chance


Don't agree with this mind...i might have to attempt live feeding with my snake if weight loss gets too bad. I really dont want to have to do it and it will be a very last resort. I certainly dont have a sick perversion and i wouldnt be doing it for pleasure!!!!!


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

Maybe this thread would have been better placed in the Snake section...?? :whistling2:

People are basing their answers on T's as a T was mentioned and this is the Invert section after all :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> Maybe this thread would have been better placed in the Snake section...?? :whistling2:
> 
> People are basing their answers on T's as a T was mentioned and this is the Invert section after all :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I never used the snake forum, I thought it was a part of this. I noticed it after I posted and wondered if it was better in that section.

Sorry


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

cascadingstylez said:


> I never used the snake forum, I thought it was a part of this. I noticed it after I posted and wondered if it was better in that section.
> 
> Sorry


Probably.

You might find people who post here are not as into their snakes as others and therefore have never _really_ considered live feeding. I agree with all the cruel bits people mention and i'd hate to see the poor mouse stressed and then crushed/eaten...but then what do you do if your much beloved snake wont eat and you have tried everything else? leave it die??

It will always split opinions.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

Spider Call said:


> I personally do not think live feeding is right, whether to a snake or a spider.
> As soon as the animal shows fear, and knows what is going to happen I draw the line.
> I watched a rat get shoved in to a snakes viv in a German reptile shop, it was shaking all over. The poor thing huddled at the back of the viv, and there it stayed, a shaking ball of fur.
> 
> ...


This is a very sensible and well-measured post. Spider Call understands that all things need to eat and some things need to eat meat/rodents exclusively, and I understand that too, but I agree that there is no reason to distress any animal. The cruellest thing I can think of is an animal that is bred for food only and spends its last minutes petrified with fear. That is no life to have. 

The comparison to eating fish that is 'nearly alive' when cooked baffles me. What kind of fish is alive when you cook it? You can guess that I don't agree with eating lobster...in fact I've stopped eating fish entirely because I used to fish when I was a kid, too young and stupid to realise what the fish went through once suffocated in the air, and I've boycotted fish ever since (also, the Lieutenant would disagree :whistling2.

There is no reason to feed live, unless maybe, (BIG maybe) the other animals' life depended on it - but who's to put a value on a life?


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> Probably.
> 
> but then what do you do if your much beloved snake wont eat and you have tried everything else? leave it die??


Braining
Cut the mouse open so it goes all gross and smelly 
Cut it in half while it is still frozen, so it goes slightly bloody when it unfreezees... 
And last force feeding....



Grumpymouth said:


> This is a very sensible and well-measured post. Spider Call understands that all things need to eat and some things need to eat meat/rodents exclusively, and I understand that too, but I agree that there is no reason to distress any animal. The cruellest thing I can think of is an animal that is bred for food only and spends its last minutes petrified with fear. That is no life to have.
> 
> The comparison to eating fish that is 'nearly alive' when cooked baffles me. What kind of fish is alive when you cook it? You can guess that I don't agree with eating lobster...in fact I've stopped eating fish entirely because I used to fish when I was a kid, too young and stupid to realise what the fish went through once suffocated in the air, and I've boycotted fish ever since (also, the Lieutenant would disagree :whistling2.
> 
> There is no reason to feed live, unless maybe, (BIG maybe) the other animals' life depended on it - but who's to put a value on a life?


Thank you C:
I used to fish when I was younger too, I always put the fish back apart from when we went mackrel fishing.
However, after hearing how sensetive the fishes mouthes were, I will have to say I did stop.
And the guy who owned the boat we mackrel fished off <_< Called me the fish girl, cause I used to size the fish and say if we were going to keep them XD 
Nothing too small C: Poor fishies <3
But... They were smacked over the head, cause I could ot bear them suffocating.

I don't see why an animal should die scared and in pain, when it can be killed quickly... 
Or in the case of mice, fall asleep in the gas and never wake up.


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

Spider Call said:


> Braining
> Cut the mouse open so it goes all gross and smelly
> Cut it in half while it is still frozen, so it goes slightly bloody when it unfreezees...
> And last force feeding....


Braining is one of many of the easier things to attempt, this certainly wouldnt come close to a last resort solution as this is usually one of the first things attempted.

Force feeding is the other last resort solution but this can be dangerous to the snake in question, put them off eating completely and VERY stressful to the snake. So then it comes down to what you care for more, the snake or the mouse...live feeding will cause stress and suffering to the mouse, force feeding will cause stress and suffering to the snake.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> Braining is one of many of the easier things to attempt, this certainly wouldnt come close to a last resort solution as this is usually one of the first things attempted.
> 
> Force feeding is the other last resort solution but this can be dangerous to the snake in question, put them off eating completely and VERY stressful to the snake. So then it comes down to what you care for more, the snake or the mouse...live feeding will cause stress and suffering to the mouse, force feeding will cause stress and suffering to the snake.


Well if the snake isn't eating then it's probably depressed and not enjoying its life in a tank...sorry to say that but when an animal goes off food, it's usually sick, distressed, or depressed. My toad Ron won't eat - he looks miserable. I've tried force feeding him as well, it hasn't worked and now he won't eat at all. It was distressing to him and I hated doing it, I thought it might help him but I felt cruel doing it to him. If he's that sad, maybe he wants to die. I keep hoping he'll eat but if he wastes away then maybe he'll be in a better place - that big rainforest in the sky. 

Of course I don't wish the snake any harm or wish it to die, but if it's not feeding then maybe that's nature taking its course. Sorry.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

I personally could NOT feed live, emotionally and moraly. 
Stephany escaped and ate two of my hamsters a few years back, I could not go near her for over a year... 
I have had mice as pets, and loved them, and because of that I could never took a mouse in the eye... And care for it, just to kill it.

If it was life and death, I would find someone else to take the snake. 
I understand they would need to eat, but I could not do it.

I have hit people for stepping on beetles on purpose, and a guy I knew when I was younger was smacked round the head with a canoe oar.. Cause he took eggs out of a nest and broke them.
Causing pain to an animal on purpose is wrong.



Grumpymouth said:


> Well if the snake isn't eating then it's probably depressed and not enjoying its life in a tank...sorry to say that but when an animal goes off food, it's usually sick, distressed, or depressed. My toad Ron won't eat - he looks miserable. I've tried force feeding him as well, it hasn't worked and now he won't eat at all. It was distressing to him and I hated doing it, I thought it might help him but I felt cruel doing it to him. If he's that sad, maybe he wants to die. I keep hoping he'll eat but if he wastes away then maybe he'll be in a better place - that big rainforest in the sky.
> 
> Of course I don't wish the snake any harm or wish it to die, but if it's not feeding then maybe that's nature taking its course. Sorry.


After eating my hamsters Stephany did not eat for months, we did not try to force her... Nor did we offer her live.
She got hungry enough in the end, and now strike feeds... 
Her food has to move for her to eat it.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

God, that's terrible about your hamsters...if something ate my rats I'd have to get rid of it. I'd be afraid I couldn't love it enough and it would be neglected.

I'm with you about anger towards people who mistreat animals for fun - I remember a boy in second grade who stepped on a pair of ladybugs and I cried and told the teacher on him...likewise, when I read about people being cruel to animals, I wish I had five minutes alone with them and a baseball bat...

I know this seems contradictory - hating animals being hurt/abused for fun and then wanting to hurt the abuser - but what can I say, I can't help it. It's wanting to hurt things just for fun that bothers me - I guess revenge is a different matter :blush:


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

Grumpymouth you obviously have no clue when it comes to snakes then (especially Royals) and i have to admit im slightly offended by your first little sentence there...so i wont even discuss further with you!!

...and for Spider Call, i'd be interested to know what you feed your animals if you are so against live feeding. I've seen crickets run the other direction when they sense movement which will be down to fear. Or is this just a case that because crickets are 'seen' as food and mice are 'seen' as fluffy, cuddle pets then it basically comes down to what you have been brought up to think of as acceptable?? Although this shouldnt be the case as you hit people for stepping on beetles.

All im saying is i can see why people would consider this option, im not saying im a fan and i truely dread the thought of ever having to attempt it myself.


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## Chance (Jun 14, 2008)

Grumpymouth said:


> Erm, I think the point is that although, yes, a T might come across a mouse in it's natural setting, it wouldn't have it every day and that doesn't mean it's good for it. Kebabs would grow on trees if we were meant to eat them.
> 
> I appreciate that everything needs to eat, and that snakes, especially of a certain size, require rodents to eat as this is their natural prey - I don't think mice are a common prey for T's which would be more suited to insects or things more plentiful that it would come across every day.
> 
> Do you just want to give it a mouse so you can put it on YouTube? That's about the only reason I could think of for someone wanting to put a little mouse through that fear...:whip:


When we had to live feed ONCE i might add the mouse didnt have a clue at all, it was happily sat in the corner cleaning itself, it sat on the snakes back and rode around the box for a bit on his back and everything. 

There was no sing of fear at all other than the one tiny squeak that it gave when it got grabbed, it lasted 7 seconds and that was it. Dead and gone, no it isnt nice to watch and thankfully i now have all good feeders again on frozen. 

This topic should not be discussed on the forum i dont think as there are people from both sides of the argument on live feeding and whether it is legal/ethical e.t.c and will be a never-ending debate.

If people choose to do it sobeit but as long as they dont shout about it then I dont see a problem.

Before i get my head bitten off im not condoning live feeding but im not saying it should be banned either. I agree that as an emergency last resort then its not a problem. 

I certainly think that doing it so that it can be put on youtube is ridiculous and totally barbaric as its not to do with the welfare of the snake.

The problem is (this is directed at OP) that whenever you mention live feeding on this forum people tend to jump down your throat. I wouldnt bother.

Cheers
Rob


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

Chance said:


> When we had to live feed ONCE i might add the mouse didnt have a clue at all, it was happily sat in the corner cleaning itself, it sat on the snakes back and rode around the box for a bit on his back and everything.
> 
> There was no sing of fear at all other than the one tiny squeak that it gave when it got grabbed, it lasted 7 seconds and that was it. Dead and gone, no it isnt nice to watch and thankfully i now have all good feeders again on frozen.
> 
> ...


I think as people do have emotions about this topic, it makes it a very good discussion, BUT is something that should be undertaken with thought and deliberation, its important to know about the animals and some of their anatomy before, or atleast having some background involvment.


so its alright if you dont hear about it? sounds the same as racism or something:bash:

Not really something i can agree with...

Tarantulas are different to snakes, snakes are designed to eat small rodents and stuff. Ts are designed to eat other inverts.. a T eating a mouse is MUCH WORSE, much LONGER too than a snake eating a mouse, they dont crush, they only stab, and twist their fangs iwithin the prey, it can take a while.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

"Just because we can, doesnt mean we should". 

You dont need to feed live vertebrates to just about 90% of all pet reptiles. Inverts dont need them at all. 

Its a fallacy to think that T's somehow _need_ the occassional rodent in their diet. In the wild, only a few species would ever tackle any vertebrate (bird, rodent,snake whatever) and no spider known to date makes vertebrates a routine part of its diet. 

Its a construct of the pet keeping world (especially in the US), and one that needs to stop IMO. 

In regards reptiles, theres another section for such dicussions.


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

> Thank you for your enquiry, please accept our apologies for the delay in replying.
> 
> Unfortunately the legal position regarding feeding live vertebrates to snakes is not clear. The RSPCA has been successful in taking some prosecutions on this sort of issue but not in others. The difficulty we face is that of proving unnecessary suffering to either the snake or indeed the prey animal.
> 
> ...


No more than I expected from the RSCPA tbh, btw their info is totally wrong! I know of at least 1 major UK breeder that feeds live as a matter of course. 

As to my own view I certainly PREFER to feed f/t, its safer and easier. Doesn't mean I'd hesitate to live feed if I honestly believed it was in the best interests of the snake.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> ...and for Spider Call, i'd be interested to know what you feed your animals if you are so against live feeding. I've seen crickets run the other direction when they sense movement which will be down to fear. Or is this just a case that because crickets are 'seen' as food and mice are 'seen' as fluffy, cuddle pets then it basically comes down to what you have been brought up to think of as acceptable?? Although this shouldnt be the case as you hit people for stepping on beetles.
> 
> All im saying is i can see why people would consider this option, im not saying im a fan and i truely dread the thought of ever having to attempt it myself.


I do feed crickets to my pets, and I have to say I occasionally feel bad...
We had a pair of harvest mice when we were young, they went vege because we did not understand where our 'pet' crickets were going... At that stage we were too small to understand.
When the cricket flees I feel bad, but most of the time they are fleeing because I have just grabbed them.
I watch them amble about and eat bits of food, and they seem quite happy.
But when the fangs hit them thats it, they usually die because of the sheer size... A mouse is not that much smaller than most T's, so it probably will not be killed on impact, and watching an animal write is no fun.

But I must go >.< I am all itchy from T hairs.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> Grumpymouth you obviously have no clue when it comes to snakes then (especially Royals) and i have to admit im slightly offended by your first little sentence there...so i wont even discuss further with you!!
> 
> ...and for Spider Call, i'd be interested to know what you feed your animals if you are so against live feeding. I've seen crickets run the other direction when they sense movement which will be down to fear. Or is this just a case that because crickets are 'seen' as food and mice are 'seen' as fluffy, cuddle pets then it basically comes down to what you have been brought up to think of as acceptable?? Although this shouldnt be the case as you hit people for stepping on beetles.
> 
> All im saying is i can see why people would consider this option, im not saying im a fan and i truely dread the thought of ever having to attempt it myself.


Gaz, I can't really see why you're 'offended' by my first sentence - if anything I'm showing altruism to the phantom snake in my flat, saying I wouldn't feel right looking after it knowing it had killed my other pets. By 'get rid of' I obviously don't mean 'kill', I would rehome it with someone. 

I think Spider Call, the others and myself are expressing our opinions based on what we feel is right. To be honest I don't even like feeding live foods to my toads but I know they have to eat (even if Ron doesn't want to). That is the reason I don't keep snakes, pure and simple - couldn't handle the live feeding. I'd leave it in the care of someone who could...


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

Spider Call said:


> I do feed crickets to my pets, and I have to say I occasionally feel bad...
> We had a pair of harvest mice when we were young, they went vege because we did not understand where our 'pet' crickets were going... At that stage we were too small to understand.
> When the cricket flees I feel bad, but most of the time they are fleeing because I have just grabbed them.
> I watch them amble about and eat bits of food, and they seem quite happy.
> ...


Maybe i had got the wrong end of the stick then, i thought the comments were aimed at live feeding with snakes. I wont comment anymore on this as there is another section for that debate.

I totally agree with there being no need to live feed mice to T's mind and thats that!!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

as far as i am aware, dave hustons statement is right.* It is illegal* in the UK to feed live vertibrates. I spoke to my vet and she said it is even illegal in this country to kill vertibrates for the purpose of feeding i.e culling mouse litters to be used later as frozen. If you wish to do this my vet said you have to have a license to cull. I havent looked into this any further though. I do understand that live feeding is used in a life death situation for the snake, though to do it regularly just because your snake is used to it i find a little more hard to stomach. There are always ways to get snakes from live feeding to frozen. I am more of a rodent lover than i am a snake lover so my heart will always say dont live feed, especially when frozen is still an option. To say it isnt cruel or doesnt instill fear in the poor little mouse thats trapped in a box with a predator is just ridiculous, either that or you're just tryna convince yourself that it isnt as bad after all.

i went in the DWA section and watched a video..i wish i hadnt, it was of a lizard eating snake who was enjoying a lovely little leopard gecko for lunch (alive or dead i couldnt tell), i was mortified being a lizard lover, and i feel the same when i see videos of mice being fed, its just it seems to be more acceptable for mice to be seen as food than it is lizards, though would you quite happily leave a leo in with a snake while it was alive n watch it run for its life tryna get away?? 
i still have corn snakes and do still feed them mice, but i will always use frozen and never feed live.


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

Grumpymouth said:


> Well if the snake isn't eating then it's probably depressed and not enjoying its life in a tank.


Thats the bit i didnt like too much. I keep my animals in the best possible ways...same as many other keepers who have the same problems with Royals.

Anyway, ive made my final comments on this now...there is a different section for the snake debate and my opinion on live feeding to T's was made in my last post : victory:


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> as far as i am aware, dave hustons statement is right.* It is illegal* in the UK to feed live vertibrates. I spoke to my vet and she said it is even illegal in this country to kill vertibrates for the purpose of feeding i.e culling mouse litters to be used later as frozen. If you wish to do this my vet said you have to have a license to cull. I havent looked into this any further though. I do understand that live feeding is used in a life death situation for the snake, though to do it regularly just because your snake is used to it i find a little more hard to stomach. There are always ways to get snakes from live feeding to frozen. I am more of a rodent lover than i am a snake lover so my heart will always say dont live feed, especially when frozen is still an option. To say it isnt cruel or doesnt instill fear in the poor little mouse thats trapped in a box with a predator is just ridiculous, either that or you're just tryna convince yourself that it isnt as bad after all.
> 
> i went in the DWA section and watched a video..i wish i hadnt, it was of a lizard eating snake who was enjoying a lovely little leopard gecko for lunch (alive or dead i couldnt tell), i was mortified being a lizard lover, and i feel the same when i see videos of mice being fed, its just it seems to be more acceptable for mice to be seen as food than it is lizards, though would you quite happily leave a leo in with a snake while it was alive n watch it run for its life tryna get away??
> i still have corn snakes and do still feed them mice, but i will always use frozen and never feed live.



good infromative post.
personally it winds me up seeing anoles being used as food.
I cannot stand Nat Geo productions, they are always fake, and nothing more than a bunch of 'should know better's grabbing an array of small animals and feeding them to something bigger, idiots


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> as far as i am aware, dave hustons statement is right.* It is illegal* in the UK to feed live vertibrates. I spoke to my vet and she said it is even illegal in this country to kill vertibrates for the purpose of feeding i.e culling mouse litters to be used later as frozen. If you wish to do this my vet said you have to have a license to cull. I havent looked into this any further though. I do understand that live feeding is used in a life death situation for the snake, though to do it regularly just because your snake is used to it i find a little more hard to stomach. There are always ways to get snakes from live feeding to frozen. I am more of a rodent lover than i am a snake lover so my heart will always say dont live feed, especially when frozen is still an option. To say it isnt cruel or doesnt instill fear in the poor little mouse thats trapped in a box with a predator is just ridiculous, either that or you're just tryna convince yourself that it isnt as bad after all.
> 
> i went in the DWA section and watched a video..i wish i hadnt, it was of a lizard eating snake who was enjoying a lovely little leopard gecko for lunch (alive or dead i couldnt tell), i was mortified being a lizard lover, and i feel the same when i see videos of mice being fed, its just it seems to be more acceptable for mice to be seen as food than it is lizards, though would you quite happily leave a leo in with a snake while it was alive n watch it run for its life tryna get away??
> i still have corn snakes and do still feed them mice, but i will always use frozen and never feed live.


Where would you get said culling license as I got told something similiar and upon checking with my local council licensing office found they had no such thing, only thing they were interested in was whether I was keeping DWA illegally (even offered me an amnesty if I was, so I would have had time to get legal as it were, too bad the most dangerous thing I own is a hoggie with an attitude)


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

C_Strike said:


> good infromative post.
> personally it winds me up seeing anoles being used as food.
> I cannot stand Nat Geo productions, they are always fake, and nothing more than a bunch of 'should know better's grabbing an array of small animals and feeding them to something bigger, idiots


 
yeah i dont like anoles bein used as food either, thats purely cos we have a tank full of them here n theyre lovely little things, that bein said i dont like the thought of cows, chickens etc bein killed for my benefit but im still a meat eater, so i cannot have one view for one and not another, but as little suffering as possible i believe in, n feedin anythin live in my opinion isnt right as it must be scary for the prey. I wouldnt even dream of tuckin into a nice mooing live cow so i dont see why a snake in captivity should be doin either. People are commenting on keepin the snakes habits as natural as possible....at the end of the day living in a RUB/vivarium isnt even close to bein natural so why should their natural eating habits be replicated either?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

davehuston said:


> Ummm...... That response makes me believe they don't really have a clue. It is illegal to feed anything with a backbone to anything else with a back bone live. It can only be done here legally if it is a life or death situation. :2thumb:


The RSPCA is actually exactly correct.

The Animal Welfare Act does NOT make it illegal to live feed one vertebrate to another.

The Animal Welfare Act does NOT make it illegal to raise mice/rats for food, whether or not you euthanise them prior to feeding. There is no licence for culling unless you're talking about culling WILD populations of animals.

What it DOES do is make it advisable that you speak to a vet and live feed on the advice and preferably with the supervision of said vet.

My vet knows I'm getting snakes from the States which will be live feeders when they arrive. She just said that if I had TROUBLE converting them from live to frozen once they were established and feeding, that she'd be happy to help.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

it isnt illegal to feed live, in the right circumstances at the start of this thread theres a comment from the rspca that admits its a grey area, it can be interpreted two ways but technically its not illegal.

and I dont see how an anole is any different to any other animal be it a rat mouse or chick, its very hypocritical to agree with feeding mice and rats but say that feeding lizards or snakes to another reptile is wrong.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Issa said:


> Where would you get said culling license as I got told something similiar and upon checking with my local council licensing office found they had no such thing, only thing they were interested in was whether I was keeping DWA illegally (even offered me an amnesty if I was, so I would have had time to get legal as it were, too bad the most dangerous thing I own is a hoggie with an attitude)


as i said, i havent looked into it further but i will ask my vet next time i see her, i suppose once you've culled a litter of pinks n theyre in the freezer, so long as you're not caught in the act as it were, then you cannot be done for it as they cannot prove you've actually culled them. I really dont know what the stance is with regards to the license though its just what ive been told. Will ask next time n will report back on that one


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> Maybe i had got the wrong end of the stick then, i thought the comments were aimed at live feeding with snakes. I wont comment anymore on this as there is another section for that debate.
> 
> I totally agree with there being no need to live feed mice to T's mind and thats that!!


Nar live feeding with mice to T's... Although <_< I am against live feeding as a whole to snakes XD 
I could never do it.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

SiUK said:


> and I dont see how an anole is any different to any other animal be it a rat mouse or chick, its very hypocritical to agree with feeding mice and rats but say that feeding lizards or snakes to another reptile is wrong.


 
i never said it was wrong to feed lizards to other reps, i dont agree with the fact that most lizards are fed to other reps while being *alive*. I personally dont agree with live feeding as a whole, be it a mouse or a lizard, unless it is absolutely neccessary. I actually pass comment sayin that it seems more acceptable to feed mice than it doesn lizards, which again imo is wrong. Everything needs to eat, what it eats isnt that much of a concern, it is the form in which we feed it that bothers me


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

na im with you on that, but defrost lizards are no different


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

SiUK said:


> na im with you on that, but defrost lizards are no different


totally, if someone wants to breed anoles to feed, then thats up to them and if needs must, just why cant they cull them humanely first and freeze them like pinks

a little off topic n i dont want ppl to post here but if any of you can inform me of the most humane way to cull pinks id appreciate it if you PM me, ive heard various different ways to do it and have heard differing opinions on whether freezing is humane or not. As little graphic detail as poss though please cos im a total wuss n it wont be me thats doin it 

right back on topic! :lol2:


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## sharkymarky (Aug 14, 2008)

Live feeding IS NOT illegal although it is recommended that your methods are approved by a vet. It is frowned upon. havnt read the whole thread but i do exotic animal science at uni and this was a subject in law once. hope this helps xx


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> totally, if someone wants to breed anoles to feed, then thats up to them and if needs must, just why cant they cull them humanely first and freeze them like pinks


Because most of the snake species that won't take mice and require lizards are ALSO animals that are difficult if not impossible to wean off of live feeds. And it's more difficult to humanely kill a lizard than it is to kill a mouse - simply because they're resistant to CO2. Unless you've got the stomach to take a hammer to their skull you don't have much chance of guaranteeing an instant death.

And I use a combination of CO2 and the freezer for pinks. CO2 at standard concentration (as one would use for older mice) until you see no movement, freezer to ensure death.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

just had to post this sentence ive found in an article, i find it quite amusing

" This is one very good reason to prefer to use dead feeders; a *prekilled *mouse will *rarely* bite a snake. "

WTF, can someone please explain to me how a prekilled mouse could EVER bite a snake????


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

bah this argument sucks...

t's dont need vertebrate prey, and to be honest a mouse could do quite some damage to even the biggest tarantula...


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> just had to post this sentence ive found in an article, i find it quite amusing
> 
> " This is one very good reason to prefer to use dead feeders; a *prekilled *mouse will *rarely* bite a snake. "
> 
> WTF, can someone please explain to me how a prekilled mouse could EVER bite a snake????


Zombie mice  They walk among us XD


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> just had to post this sentence ive found in an article, i find it quite amusing
> 
> " This is one very good reason to prefer to use dead feeders; a *prekilled *mouse will *rarely* bite a snake. "
> 
> WTF, can someone please explain to me how a prekilled mouse could EVER bite a snake????


The teeth of a mouse could scrape the snake (as later described in the same article!) - it's not really a bite as such, but there you go.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> The teeth of a mouse could scrape the snake (as later described in the same article!) - it's not really a bite as such, but there you go.


you have an answer for everything ssthisto! :lol2:


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

I don't understand some people. People need to get back to basics and read up on the food chain.

A lizard is just another animal in the food chain, and if I had a pet that required lizards as live food, then so be it. I own lizards, I love them to bits, but my lizards are not being fed to a snake.

People are to wrapped up in the western world traditions and ways of living. Its us humans that decided to make animals pets. Go back to the Bible, humans have authority over animals and back then I doubt the RSPCA stopped them from eating whatever meat they could get their hands on.

People pass comments such as "but mice can escape in the wild". True. But we chose to lock out animals up in cages, that don't mean we should stop feeding them the food they would otherwise eat in the wild.

And you think insects don't get scared? A cricket is an insect, so is a roach. Same as a mantis, does that mean I can go and kill a mantis with no bad feelings in my heart because insects don't have feelings? No.

We get attatched to animals that we label as 'pets' and forget that they are food to others.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

I never said they don't have feelings.
Every animal has feelings, but they do not SEEM to SHOW fear as much as a mouse does.
A mouse will scream.

EDIT:

I do not just get attatched to animals I label as pets...
If I see any anima dying, or being tormented by someone/something in the wild i intervene.
Its what I have been brought up to do.
When I was young we came across some people who had trapped an adder in a pit, and were busy trying to kill it.
My mum put down her coat so it could climb up the side on it.

I would not class that as a pet, but it is a living breathing creature. And if it does not NEED to die in a painful way, just because someone WANTS it to, then it should not have to. 

A T does not NEED a mouse.

I found an injured wild mouse and picked it up, people looked at me like i was a freak because it was 'vermin' according to them.
But it did not deserve to die...
It was put in a tank with food and water and bedding... It got better and was re released...


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

inverts lack the pain receptors of vertebrate animals anyway so they dont have feelings in the same way


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

Spider Call said:


> I never said they don't have feelings.
> Every animal has feelings, but they do not SEEM to SHOW fear as much as a mouse does.
> A mouse will scream.
> 
> ...


So because an animal don't show feelings it hasn't got any.

I WILL MAKE THIS LARGE BECUASE PEOPLE CANNOT READ. A T CAN EAT A MOUSE LIVE, REGARDLESS, BUT THE WHOLE POST WAS ABOUT MY FRIENDS SNAKE WHO EATS MICE. THE SAME FRIEND WAS ALSO SELLING ME HIS T WHO HE SOMETIMES TREATS TO LIVE MICE.

The T is 4 years old, very healthy. Does no harm in his case.


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

SiUK said:


> inverts lack the pain receptors of vertebrate animals anyway so they dont have feelings in the same way


Oh so its ok to feed them live. Hypocrasy. Again, people need to get back to basics and read up on the food chain.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> I don't understand some people. People need to get back to basics and read up on the food chain.
> 
> A lizard is just another animal in the food chain, and if I had a pet that required lizards as live food, then so be it. I own lizards, I love them to bits, but my lizards are not being fed to a snake.
> 
> ...


 
i wondered when someone would bring this up......i never said crickets, roaches etc dont get scared, and if the animals i have will eat dead crickets then i will feed them, the majority wont, trust me i know, ive tried!. My point being that IF frozen is an option then use it. There are ways of getting a live feeding snake onto defrost, just some people choose not to try them n feed live as an easier option. If all options have been explored and the snake in question just wont eat defrost then fine, needs must, but some people seem to think its quite fun to feed live, or dont even try to get the snake to eat anything else


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> Oh so its ok to feed them live. Hypocrasy. Again, people need to get back to basics and read up on the food chain.


the difference should be obvious to you its actually a bit worrying if you cant see that because its common sense


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> people seem to think its quite fun to feed live, or dont even try to get the snake to eat anything else


I agree some people do and those that do it for that reason are stupid. I don't think its fun, I think its the snakes food and thats that. The snake needs to eat, it can't catch its own food because I have trapped it in a tank, so I will play its God and feed it.

Nothing fun about feeding a snake.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> So because an animal don't show feelings it hasn't got any.
> 
> I WILL MAKE THIS LARGE BECUASE PEOPLE CANNOT READ. A T CAN EAT A MOUSE LIVE, REGARDLESS, BUT THE WHOLE POST WAS ABOUT MY FRIENDS SNAKE WHO EATS MICE. THE SAME FRIEND WAS ALSO SELLING ME HIS T WHO HE SOMETIMES TREATS TO LIVE MICE.
> 
> The T is 4 years old, very healthy. Does no harm in his case.


 
the whole point of a forum is to discuss n debate, just cos your original post says one thing, doesnt mean the discussion cant go off onto discussing other things around the same topic........thats why its A FORUM! iF YOU DONT WANT A DEBATE TO ENSUE DONT POST ABOUT CONTROVERSIAL THINGS! PEOPLE ARE VOICING THEIR OPINIONS AND KNOWLEDGE, NOTHING ELSE, IF PEOPLE DIDNT POST THEIR OPINIONS, THERE WOULD BE NO FORUM!!!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> I agree some people do and those that do it for that reason are stupid. I don't think its fun, I think its the snakes food and thats that. The snake needs to eat, it can't catch its own food because I have trapped it in a tank, *so I will play its God and feed it.*
> 
> Nothing fun about feeding a snake.


 
god doesnt have to feed live though does he/she?


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> So because an animal don't show feelings it hasn't got any.
> 
> I WILL MAKE THIS LARGE BECUASE PEOPLE CANNOT READ. A T CAN EAT A MOUSE LIVE, REGARDLESS, BUT THE WHOLE POST WAS ABOUT MY FRIENDS SNAKE WHO EATS MICE. THE SAME FRIEND WAS ALSO SELLING ME HIS T WHO HE SOMETIMES TREATS TO LIVE MICE.
> 
> The T is 4 years old, very healthy. Does no harm in his case.


 OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN NOT READ EITHER!
If you bothered to look I said: 
I NEVER SAID THEY DONT HAVE FEELINGS.

Nuff said.
I know animals have feelings.


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> god doesnt have to feed live though does he/she?


So what does he do? Does he pop them frozen mice in the wild?


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> god doesnt have to feed live though does he/she?





Spider Call said:


> OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN NOT READ EITHER!
> If you bothered to look I said:
> I NEVER SAID THEY DONT HAVE FEELINGS.
> 
> ...


Animals and Insects have feelings. You cannot say you won't feed live mice but you will feed live crickets and insects. They all have feelings.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> Animals and Insects have feelings. You cannot say you won't feed live mice but you will feed live crickets and insects. They all have feelings.


Ok seriously, learn to read.
For the last time I have already said THEY HAVE FEELINGS.
So stop saying I said they don't.
I know they have feelings, I never said they did not.
What I said was that they do not show fear the same way rodents do, and so it does not hurt people as much as it does with rodents. 
People hear rodents scream, they hear nothing from crickets.
An animal screaming vs an animal that does not make a noise as it dies.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> So what does he do? Does he pop them frozen mice in the wild?


well my interpretation of god would be to reduce suffering and promote peace, so if i was god i wouldnt be live feeding. Though this seems irrelevant. If you want to keep snakes or any other animals as pets then you arent keepin them in their natural habitat anyway, though you may try to mimic it, it will never come close so why feed them live "the natural" way, if they will quite happily eat frozen???


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> Animals and Insects have feelings. You cannot say you won't feed live mice but you will feed live crickets and insects. They all have feelings.


thats the thing thats common sense though mate, insects do not feel pain in the same way that mammals do, they are very primative they dont have the ability to think and act in the same way a mouse does, so although its all livefeeding its very much different.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

SiUK said:


> thats the thing thats common sense though mate, insects do not feel pain in the same way that mammals do, they are very primative they dont have the ability to think and act in the same way a mouse does, so although its all livefeeding its very much different.


Thank you.
Someone with common sense 
:banghead:


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

*cascadingstylez* what more could you expect posting in the invert section and talking about live feeding? you cant post here and then suddenly try pulling out using a snake as an exscuse... thats hippopotamusy

as for the live feeding scenario, i my self dont live feed, how ever i would if i NEEDED too. as far as live feeding goes though, i say if the enclosure is large enough for it to simulate a natural interaction between the prey and predator, thats fine.

anyway, come on guys, get heated, get pessed off, get angry and give me an argument worth reading!!!!!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> Animals and Insects have feelings. You cannot say you won't feed live mice but you will feed live crickets and insects. They all have feelings.


so you know what it feels like to be a cricket??? im not sayin i know what its like to be a mouse but like siuk said, crickets havent got the same pain receptors as vertebrates, plus a cricket tends not to sit there cowering in the corner being stalked. Crickets tend to be eaten in one swoop without havin a chance to feel scared. my point being live mice tend to be chased, stalked before being eaten thus envoking fear in them before they die


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

No point in debating. I will continue to own reptiles and I will live feed when suitable and I am sure there are similar people who feel the same.

People on here go on like live feeding is cruel. If thats the case, any form of killing animals is cruel regardless of culling or live feeding.

Its bull.


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

If you don't want a debate, don't start topics about it.

There are people who will not agree with you where ever you go.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

GazEmm said:


> Thats the bit i didnt like too much. I keep my animals in the best possible ways...same as many other keepers who have the same problems with Royals.
> 
> Anyway, ive made my final comments on this now...there is a different section for the snake debate and my opinion on live feeding to T's was made in my last post : victory:


Sorry Gaz, I thought you meant the other sentence...yeah, I can see how this would offend you, sorry I didn't mean to, I'm sure you keep your animals as best you can - it's just been my experience that an animal that isn't feeding well is usually sick or unhappy, I'm thinking of my Ron here and I've tried my best with him, but he must be sad to not be eating - his partner Hermione is massive so I don't think it's a disease or she'd be suffering too.

But, sorry mate, I wasn't having a go at how you keep your critters :blush:. And I'm glad you're against feeding mice to T's! :no1:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I have fed live before and I will again, but not for the hell of it or because its 'cool' saying its natural is just a poor excuse for trying to justify it, I have seen what live food can do to snakes and its not pretty if a snake will eat frozen then its crazy not to feed it frozen, its cheaper easier and kinder, as an animal lover I dont want to see any animal in unnessary pain I feel its my duty to look after an animal and give it as good a life as I can whether its a feeder animal or pet the only reason for live feeding other than health problems is for the enjoyment of the person watching which is wrong


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

SiUK said:


> I have fed live before and I will again, but not for the hell of it or because its 'cool' saying its natural is just a poor excuse for trying to justify it, I have seen what live food can do to snakes and its not pretty if a snake will eat frozen then its crazy not to feed it frozen, its cheaper easier and kinder, as an animal lover I dont want to see any animal in unnessary pain I feel its my duty to look after an animal and give it as good a life as I can whether its a feeder animal or pet the only reason for live feeding other than health problems is for the enjoyment of the person watching which is wrong


You are going on like I said it was cool. Please quote my comment to when I said that.

Please quote me to anything I said that would point towards me live feeding for enjoyment. I said its natural, they do it in the wild.


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

siUK provides a good come back, awaiting response from defendant.

come on, dont let it die down now... guys imagine that wee mouse peeing its pants


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> You are going on like I said it was cool. Please quote my comment to when I said that.
> 
> Please quote me to anything I said that would point towards me live feeding for enjoyment,


the fact that you see nothing wrong with it


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

cascadingstylez said:


> No point in debating. I will continue to own reptiles and I will live feed when suitable and I am sure there are similar people who feel the same.
> 
> People on here go on like live feeding is cruel. If thats the case, any form of killing animals is cruel regardless of culling or live feeding.
> 
> Its bull.


 
why :censor: post then if you are not open to hear other peoples thoughts n feelings? we aint tryna change the way you look after your reptiles, so long as your animals are cared for we dont give a stuff, but you post a thread on a controversial subject and dont expect a debate to ensue, id continue to type more but i fear its fallin on deaf ears :bash:


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

SiUK said:


> the fact that you see nothing wrong with it


Because I seriously don't see anything wrong with it.

You take a similar debate, eating horses for example, to a riding school, and lets see what you get. But you take the same debate to france and watch the difference of opinion.

Either way, some people see it wrong because its cruel. Well if you want to go that far you might aswell say locking a snake in a tank is cruel because in the wild the roam free (I am not saying that, just an example to those that want to push the borders of cruelty).

Culling is killing. Lethal injection to humans is killing, even though its said to be painless. Same sort of lines seen as both mouse and human can feel pain and feel scared.

Like I said, for a mouse to get eaten by a snake in the wild is 'normal'. So be it when its housed in a tank in my friends living room.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

as ive said at least twice before, its bein housed in a tank in a livin room like youve just said, which is nowhere even close to its natural habitat no mtter how much you try n replicate it, so why feed it live to mimic its eating habits in the wild, when its in a :censor: glass tank in your livin room?!?!?!


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> as ive said at least twice before, its bein housed in a tank in a livin room like youve just said, which is nowhere even close to its natural habitat no mtter how much you try n replicate it, so why feed it live to mimic its eating habits in the wild, when its in a :censor: glass tank in your livin room?!?!?!


The same reason you feed it a frozen one, apart from its not frozen its alive. The only reason someone feeds frozen is because A) they love mice or B) they don't want to sit there and watch their snake incase the mouse becomes aggressive and could injure it.


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

cascadingstylez said:


> Like I said, for a mouse to get eaten by a snake in the wild is 'normal'. So be it when its housed in a tank in my friends living room.


In Your House, Inside A Vivarium, Where Readily Available Frozen Mice/Rats Or Any Other Food Items Is *Not The Wild*.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

This seems like a bit of a troll tbh. 

1/ Technically, keeping pets is cruel. Its for our own enjoyment, and most of the time we cannot replicate natural conditions exactly. Then again, we do alleviate the pressure of predation and foraging for food, so it has advantages to the animal as well. Lets not forget that early dogs were used to help man hunt, and shared in the kill (often which was far more energy efficient than trying to kill on their own).

2/ The culling= killing arguement is fairly moot. Thats like suggesting that a quick painless death is equivilent to a slow agonsing death. Its not; I for one would rather die fairly pain free than die in agony. 

3/ The mice you buy in pet shops are not normal prey for any snake. Where is your snake from? I bet it doesnt share a habitat with _Mus_ _musculus_! Same as for T's. Thats the trouble with saying "it's natural". Its not. You have translocated one species to another country and insist on feeding it a species from another country. Thats not nature. 

4/ The horses: thats a false analogy. people eat horse, but they do not eat them living. You can feed mice, but you can also feed them _dead_ mice. I can tell you 100% that the method of killing used to cull mice is more humane than anything a Tarantula will do whilst macerating one.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

GRB said:


> This seems like a bit of a troll tbh.
> 
> 1/ Technically, keeping pets is cruel. Its for our own enjoyment, and most of the time we cannot replicate natural conditions exactly. Then again, we do alleviate the pressure of predation and foraging for food, so it has advantages to the animal as well. Lets not forget that early dogs were used to help man hunt, and shared in the kill (often which was far more energy efficient than trying to kill on their own).
> 
> ...


well said :notworthy:


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

jesuslovestheladies enjoys this argument.

cascadingstyles it is in the nature of a forum for people to disagree. as far as natural goes it isnt natural, the points you put forwards are shaky at best. if you cant accept other oppinions and views... and insults as your are conversing about a highly controversial subject then dont bother, how ever, contrary to that, do bother, as it allows me to spectate more fun arguments.


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## Chance (Jun 14, 2008)

C_Strike said:


> I think as people do have emotions about this topic, it makes it a very good discussion, BUT is something that should be undertaken with thought and deliberation, its important to know about the animals and some of their anatomy before, or atleast having some background involvment.
> 
> 
> *so its alright if you dont hear about it? sounds the same as racism or something:bash:*
> ...


Woah woah woah! In no terms did I say that I was condoning live feeding however I have had to live feed in extreme final circumstances so I think that if people do not shout about it then they cannot be prosecuted or end up at the mercy of some animal extremists.

And i *DO NOT* appreciate someone twisting my statements and then referring to it as 'the same as racism' as I am NOT a racist person before anyone decides to say anything on that topic. 

With regards persecution against any human being I do NOT believe that if it isnt heard about it doesnt matter as having been a victim of persecution due to my sexuality and also having numerous friends victims of persecution due to their age/race/sex/sexual orientation I will not stand to be accused of being racist.

Back to topic, on live feeding I have made my statements clear and if people disagree then thats fine however I dont appreciate comments which are of no relevance.

Thanks
Rob


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## Chance (Jun 14, 2008)

Heres the law for live feeding as it stands currently (extract btw):



*It is an offence to use confined live vertebrate prey including fish, to train captive animals to hunt.*
*"Although the Protection of Animals Acts 1911 to 1964 do not prohibit the feeding of animals with live prey, the live feeding of vertebrate prey should be avoided save in exceptional circumstances, and then only under veterinary advice. Where any live prey must be used, its welfare must be considered as well as any potential injury which might be caused to the predator."*

*The issue we have is on the welfare Clause, Clause 3(4)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns. That is really where part of this is coming from. The feeding of live prey to reptiles is extremely rare. Ten years ago it used to be common practice. In many parts of the world, Europe, Holland, France and Germany, it is still the most common way of feeding. We do not enter into that practice here. 99.8% of what we feed will be pre killed, frozen rodents. On occasion, particularly if we are bringing in new species of snakes or whatever, you may have a specimen which is a reluctant feeder and in those circumstances it may be appropriate to feed a live vertebrate to that animal under controlled conditions. Currently under the 1911 Act it is not illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another unless you cause it unnecessary suffering, so that would have to be the result of a court case and the judge would have to make a decision. Those of us who have been involved with reptiles will argue that a mouse that is being produced for food really has no cognizance of what is going on and exhibits no fear. Whilst we absolutely do not want to encourage live feeding, we think we need some clarity as to whether that is going to be made illegal under this clause of fighting. Our concerns are, because of Clause 3(iv)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns, that snakes in the wild feed on life prey, there are no carrion feeding snakes, so that would mean we are not going to be able to feed them frozen food; we are going to have to feed them live mice, and equally we would be opposed to having to introduce that. The other issue we have is with breeding. Certain species of reptiles, iguanas would be a good example, engage in quite robust mating activity, and I am afraid the lady tends to suffer quite badly on occasions, but that is a natural process and if people are going to breed these animals that will happen, so we need to make certain that is not caught up in fighting, and you are not going to introduce iguanas together for any kind of sport if you are going to breed them. You may see them exhibit some kind of aggressive behaviour towards each other if the male is meeting the female, and that is quite common in quite a number of lizard species*

Just for clarity not being snobby or anything.

Rob


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