# does anybody on here own a dog~aggressive dog?



## TractorTotty (Jun 3, 2013)

This is in no way meant to spark any sort of huge argument/debate, I am just curious as to how people deal with owning dogs that have a seriously dog~aggressive nature. Feel free to offer your opinions, this is what I am looking for, but I do not want this to get nasty and/or personal if anyone does own a dog who may have aggressive tendancies. If you are just going to comment with something unnecessary and nasty, please go elsewhere. This is a serious question that I am asking.

Yesterday I went to Essex to visit friends/family and myself and a friend went to the Essex Dog Day in Hatfield Peveral. I took my staffies, and she was very reluctant to take her dog because she said he wasn't well behaved, but decided to in the end.

He is a rescue, some sort of a lurcher cross ~ he came from a kennels but was originally found as a stray so nobody knows anything of his background or history. She has had him for a couple of years, although yesterday was the first time that I have spent with him and her, apart from visiting her at her house (without my dogs). 

Although I was at her house, she insisted that we drove to the Dog Day separately, because her dog would "hurt my dogs if he was in the same car as them." Fair enough, I suppose, although I did think she may be panicking a bit too much.

When we got there, I realised she was not overreacting. As we both parked and got out of the car (all 3 dogs on leads) he immediately without warning grabbed hold of my Tanner's throat and latched on, sinking his teeth in and drawing blood. I was shocked, & so was Tanner, to say the least!

It got worse as we started walking around the show. My friend kept Jedi (her dog) on a very short lead close to her side, but he still barked, lunged, growled and snarled at every dog he went past. Luckily as he is a medium sized dog of a very slight build, he is easy for her to overpower and keep under some sort of control, but the racket he was making and the fixation he had with wanting to bite other dogs was quite worrying and was certainly attracting alot of attention; as it would.

We didn't stay very long in the end, which was a shame, but we had no choice but to leave when an elderly lady with an even more elderly Shitzu fell victim to Jedi as the lady was looking at a stand with her dog waiting patiently behind her, and it wandered just a bit too close and got bitten on the back. It was awful, and I completely understood why my friend had reservations about bringing him along in the first place. Truth be told, I don't know what possessed her to change her mind!

She told me that he has always been like this. She said she has tried various dog behaviourists and training classes and different sorts of dog~aggression therapy, to no avail. She was visibly upset by this, and said it was very draining, having a dog with such bad aggression issues. Without wanting to upset her more, I did say that he should without a doubt wear a muzzle at all times in public ~ something I would have thought would have been her first port of call! 

She can only take him out for walks early in the morning or quite late at night, when the chance of meeting other dogs is slim. He can never ever be let off of the lead (even though his recall is good) and he can never run around and play, even with a ball, in case another dog comes in to the park without her noticing.
She lives in a town with not many rural areas (woods/parks/fields etc) nereby with the exception of one park popular with dog walkers so that is out of the question.. so he only really gets road walks and she feels guilty. She has always had dogs and always used to take them on holiday with her each year (in the UK) but she doesn't take Jedi and leaves him in the kennels instead because it would mean she couldn't relax and neither of them could really enjoy themselves. 

I felt bad for her, and the dog ~ it must be very challenging. He is lovely with people, very sweet and very responsive, which is why I was initially so surprised at his reaction to other dogs.

So basically, just out of curiosity, does anybody else have similar issues, or know of anyone that does, and if so, how do you deal with having a dog~aggressive dog? Apart from muzzling, which in her case should have been done ages ago! And also not taking him to places like the Essex Dog Day, haha!

As I said, I am really not intending for this to turn into a huge row. More looking for other peoples' experiences and if anything, maybe be able to report back to her with a bit of advice!

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the essay. I am good at those.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

It must be awful, for the dog and the owner. My grandma owns a dog aggressive dog (he is aggressive due to having to be a guard dog for my grandma, and being attacked on many occasions).

I look after a dog with resource guarding, this is terrifying, and i'm not sure I could live with him, not if i had kids anyway.

And my dads dog is human aggressive, this i could never ever live with.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

i dont own one, but i do look after one. he's very aggressive towards small, wire haired dogs (but not smooth coated ones) due to an incident 2 years ago where one attacked his owners daughter. as he's a wolfhound cross greyhound, the speed with which he can go after them and the potential damage he could inflict is high.

fortunately we do have access to a lot of private land so 99% of his walks are on that. but should he need to be in any place where he's likely to see another dog he's kept on a short lead and muzzled. i do feel bad for him as he's a lovely dog, but nobody can take the risk of him seeing a small, wire haired dog.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

My Skye (GSD) is dog aggressive. We got him when he was 11 months old have had him now for 3½ years. At first he was shell-shocked and quiet and reasonably calm, but as he settled and realised he was staying, he became dog aggressive.


I basically think that his problems are that he was never socialised as a puppy and he just doesn't understand dog language. I tried with a couple of friends' dogs who were unfortunately smaller than him and he just cannoned into one of them knocking her over and he chased the other one and frightened him, so eventually I gave up.


Over the next 3 years I concentrated on training and getting his recall good and just used common sense and evasion. When he saw a dog, he would lunge and bark at them, so I would just stand still, make him sit and say a firm "NO!" to stop him behaving like this. He would not be allowed to walk on until he was sitting calm and not barking, then we would carry on with our walk. I never let him off the lead if we are anywhere where a dog could walk around a corner or out of a drive or gate. He's only off the leash on the beach or a large field where I can see all around me. I now know his 'territory' range, where he will ignore a dog and when a dog gets near to that I call him to me (he has 100% recall unless the dog is too close) and put him on the lead until the dog has passed.


Also when we first got him he would grab at people's clothing when they walked past, so I spent hours in a local town centre, walking him up and down the main street, 'flooding' him with people until he became de-sensitized to them and stopped doing it.


However, the best thing ever I could have done for him was to take him on organised GSD walks (which also welcome other breeds, not just GSDs) and to big dog socialisation classes at a local dog training centre, both of which I only became aware of in December last year.


I muzzle him when we go there, because I cannot trust him 100% - he gets excited when he sees a running a dog and he will chase it and then his high prey instinct kicks in and I'm certain he will try to nip. However, on the last 2 walks we've done, we've broken away from the large group with about 4 other dogs and have managed to take the muzzle off him during that time, but we put it back on when we join the main group.


Since we started doing this he's stopped barking at other dogs, although he still gets very excited and his hackles go up. He also has stopped charging at garden fences where there are aggressive dogs barking at him and barking back at them. Often he just ignores them and gets on with his playtime or he goes over to the fence, his hackles are up, but he doesn't bark.


So we are making progress with him.


If I was your friend I would definitely muzzle the dog and walk him out where she knows there are other dogs, maybe on a traffic lead, so I had close control and just persevere with good common sense.

I agree it robs you of a lot of the pleasure of owning a dog, because you can never fully relax (unless you're locked in a tennis court or something similar) and just enjoy your dog and it is exhausting and very emotional if you did relax and your dog attacked another one , but sadly this is the price you can pay for taking on a dog with an unknown history. He may have been badly attacked by a dog in the past and now treats every dog with the "attack is the best form of defence" approach. Either way it's not the dog's fault, but that won't help her. :sad:


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## beckyj (Oct 13, 2011)

My Frenchie is aggressive with other dogs he doesn't know. He lives happily with another three dogs, and will walk happily with dogs of friends who he knows, but he will not tolerate strange dogs. I've had him since ten weeks old and he went to puppy class, but he got to about nine months and decided he hated other dogs.


Like Feorag, I think it's a case of managing it, because it's quite hard to train it out when it's there. If he's that aggressive though, your friend should definitely muzzle him in public as she could find herself in trouble if he really hurts someones dog. 

With my Frenchie I too worked on having a really good re-call and knowing his limits with the closeness of other dogs. He will walk past other dogs calmly on lead now, but I know if he's off lead he would attack. If I also stand and talk to someone with another dog he doesn't know, he will start barking and lunging so I try to avoid that!

It does take away the enjoyment of walking as you are constantly on guard and looking for other dogs, but I've just accepted that it's what I have to do with him now.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

BTW the first walk we took Skye on, he went for the closest dog as soon as I let him off the leash, the dog told him where to go and after that he was fine. If a dog puts him in his place, he will back off, but I still wouldn't trust him to take the muzzle off in case it did turn into a dog fight.

He's never attacked another dog on a walk since. There are dogs on these walks who are muzzled and they are constantly going for other dogs - in fact the worst one was a medium sized mongrel on a walk with about 24 dogs and he kept having a go at different dogs over the entire walk.

Maybe your friend could look to see if there's a GSDR walk in her area and she could explain the dog's problems to the organiser and take him along muzzled and see how he gets on. I really cannot recommend them highly enough for dog aggressive dogs.


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

My mums old dog was a black German shepherd that was aggressive to wards other dogs after being attacked at a puppy class by a boxer, the weird thing he was like this most of his life that he lived in Havant near Portsmouth but when my mum moved to the Isle of Man he sort of calmed down for the last few years of his life and would be happy walking on beaches with other dogs the only dog he had a problem with was a Dalmation over the road. Mum puts it down to their happier in their new life maybe he picked up on it or maybe he just was too old to care anymore


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

lisadew24 said:


> My mums old dog was a black German shepherd that was aggressive to wards other dogs after being attacked at a puppy class by a boxer, the weird thing he was like this most of his life that he lived in Havant near Portsmouth but when my mum moved to the Isle of Man he sort of calmed down for the last few years of his life and would be happy walking on beaches with other dogs the only dog he had a problem with was a Dalmation over the road. Mum puts it down to their happier in their new life maybe he picked up on it or maybe he just was too old to care anymore


That's what keeps me going. I'm waiting until he's old and calms down! :lol:

When we first got him my husband said he'd be about 5-6 year old before he'd be the dog he was portrayed to us to be. We've since revised that to 8-9! :lol2: 
We are just waiting for him to get too old to care, I guess! Then we might be able to relax and really enjoy him.

If he was the only dog in the world and we were the only family in the world, he would be absolutely perfect! :roll:


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

You should be proud of the work you have put in because he is going really well, do you find hes worse with dogs when hes with you rather than your hubby cuz my mum use to find that. Manson was 8 when he moved to the Isle of Man and he lived till he was 10 unfortunately


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Not particularly, although the dog trainer at the training centre says he's better with me, which is probably because I do all the obedience training and work. Barry really just does the early morning and late evening comfort break walk! :lol:

My last GSD had a lot of anxieties, although he was pretty laidback which helped, Skye's high energy levels work against the anxiety and get him wound up so easily. Leo was OK with dogs, but scared about people and he would growl at visitors. He was about 6 or 7 before he realised that visitors were good for getting lots of attention from and so became nicknamed Velcro! :lol2:


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

He would listen to my mum more but he would also guard her more I personally think its because she suffers from depression so he tried to protect her, i think every gsd should be called Velcro


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Maybe Skye is receptive to my moods too, as I suffer from depression. He definitely more protective of me and does not like people to get too near me. I have to be very careful, especially if I'm sitting down with him at my side and someone comes to talk to me, but continues to stand. He will try to nip them to warn them away in situations like this.


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## PinklySmooth (Mar 25, 2013)

My nans old Alsatian/Labrador cross was aggressive, she'd had him from a pup and wasn't quite sure what caused the tendencies. He would quite often wag his tail at people, appearing friendly, but would then growl and strike. 

She used to warn anyone, parent and kids, who stopped to talk to her, or went near the dog, and put him straight on a choke-chain leash around other dogs. He made it to a good old age of 12, and even then, when he could barely walk, used to show aggression to men, and strangers. However he acted like a teddy bear towards me, and the rest of the family—apart from a few of the men—so the aggression may have been him feeling like he needed to protect the family.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

One of my staffies is bad with other dogs. Cannot be trusted to behave so he's always on the lead and if we are going somewhere I know there will be lots of other dogs he is muzzled too.


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

Completely off topic, how was it? We bailed on going due to the previous days rain, but on their Facebook page people said the couldn't believe how dry it was?

Was looking forward to going from last year and gutted we didn't go!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Part of the problem with GSDs is the fact that they are herding dogs and, as such, they have a thing about people/animals invading 'their space'

Skye is a typical herding dog in that he doesn't like Labradors. Labs are bred to do a different job and are by nature very friendly and outgoing, whereas GSDs by nature tend to be suspicious and wary of people they don't know. So Labs are very inclined to rush into the GSDs space without thought about whether the GSD feels threatened and GSDs don't like this.

The same works with people. The right way to approach a GSD (in fact any dog) is either sideways or with your back turned, hand into a fist held out to the dog and no eye contact. That way they don't feel threatened.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my shihtzu/poodle was vicious as hell when i got her... attacked and bite everyone...

i turned her into an angel... sweet as pie!

it's never the dog... it's the owner who has the problem...


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

There's a dog at one of the class I go to that has gotten In to a few small fights (no one s ever got hurt), he will sometimes bully new dogs and it they don't take it he kicks off. I was speaking so someone else about him as he had picked on my girl at our first 3 times going (first class he chased her growling and snapping ) and they knew him as the owner had taken him to the same obedience classes as she use to go to and she said he use to be realy bad and would want to get any dog close to him they couldn't go near another dog but when they left he was much better so she was surprised to here what he had been like with my girl. 

Now at class he is normally fine running about off lead with the other dogs, it seems once he gets to know the new dogs he is fine. He has never picked on my girl again or any other dog since a new one joined months ago.

Perhaps that would help your friend if she joined a class so she and her dog can be around other dogs in a controlled way. But it would take years and she properly could never fully trust him if he is that bad, but may be able to get him to the point where she can walk him easyer.

Was the shih tzu ok?

My brothers dog hates staffs after being bitten by one as a pup they just avoid them if they see one, but he doesn't get on well with many dogs to be honist but he acts differently depending on who is walking him as he can pick up from my brothers wife that she gets stressed out when they come across another dog as she is expecting him to kick off.
When he was younger we took him out to a park, when they had his lead he went for 3 dogs, when I had his lead while they went inside a building I took him up to one of the dogs he had gone for when we first arrived with no problem, he sniffed it then licked it then kept poking it in the face so we moved away befor he wound it up.


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

feorag said:


> Part of the problem with GSDs is the fact that they are herding dogs and, as such, they have a thing about people/animals invading 'their space'
> 
> Skye is a typical herding dog in that he doesn't like Labradors. Labs are bred to do a different job and are by nature very friendly and outgoing, whereas GSDs by nature tend to be suspicious and wary of people they don't know. So Labs are very inclined to rush into the GSDs space without thought about whether the GSD feels threatened and GSDs don't like this.
> 
> The same works with people. The right way to approach a GSD (in fact any dog) is either sideways or with your back turned, hand into a fist held out to the dog and no eye contact. That way they don't feel threatened.


Spot on, IMHO.
Trigger's not too keen on Labs (although he tends to like Black Labs) neither or any overly friendly dog that invades his space. He doesn't bite or attack (at least it has never got to the point where he did), but gives a very clear warning.
He used to be quite bad on the lead, too, although he had been socialised from puppyhood onward. 
I got most of that behaviour out of him, but it took so long that sometimes I daydreamed what it would have been like owning a soppy Labrador or Spaniel, lol.
Nowadays he doesn't react to dogs braking behind fences or windows at all and in 99% of cases doesn't react to dogs who don't react to him. He's still reactive to dogs that stare or pull towards or bark at him, unless I get him at the perfect moment and distract him (or they're female or large neutered males). I must admit he's gotten a bit worse since we brought in Storm, as she's very much a dog that is desperate to meet and greet every dog that passes by, whereas he just want to be left alone.

As in meeting people, I find that with Trigger, too, that he doesn't like the very direct approach, at least not with some (not all) men. He hates being touched from over the head (which is the wrong thing to do to a dog anyway) and he doesn't like strange men come too close to me (I'm still suspecting my husband taught him that, lol). Again he doesn't snap just barks, which of course is enough to give people a fright (Although we have one security guard on the estate who just doesn't get the hint, cos he used to own GSDs - or so he says). 
Women, children, friends and family can touch him when or wherever they want and the same goes for frail elderly or disabled (physically and mentally) people. 

Disclaimer: Of course I always try to prevent the above behaviours, as it shouldn't be up to him who's allowed to touch him. 

@Feorag: It's a shame we don't seem to get any GSD Walks in Scotland. Most of the walking groups in the area seem to be mainly for small dogs.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

I agree with the GSD/Labrador comments. Oz only liked dogs that would come over calmly an Labradors tended to bound into her personal space too much. 

My ex has a dog aggressive rottie, he was a rescue and as much as he tried to train him he just resigned himself to walking him at very unsocialable hours and muzzled.


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## Chance (Jun 14, 2008)

Not got one but I've worked with a few. Most of them with a lot of hard work and persistence have overcome the majority of their issues.

A couple never have unfortunately. One a husky and one a staff cross (illegal breed we think). The staff cross is the worst and has to be muzzled and kept on a lead at all times when in public. He chases people on bikes, small children and throws little dogs around like ragdolls. (all of this happened prior to me trying to work with him). He has an obsession with the feet/ankles of small children and tries to grab them and pull them over. He's never bitten a person but that is because he is always muzzled. He even has to be muzzled in the house when the owners have visitors.

It is sad but as they couldn't part with him he has to live that way. The husky is now part of a sled team living in Scotland and runs well, he has to be muzzled but he runs well. 

So basically what I am saying is that sometimes it just can't be fixed. A muzzle is a given and try working with some of Eileen's techniques that have worked with Skye. 

PS: I didn't give up on the staff cross, the owners decided they could no longer afford to pay me to work with him and I had other commitments or I would have tried to persevere for free. : victory:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

BMo1979 said:


> it took so long that sometimes I daydreamed what it would have been like owning a soppy Labrador


:lol2: My goodness I've been there too many times!

Someone on here was advertising a litter of chocolate labs and I was almost about to contact her to buy one, when Skye's breeder rang to say he was coming back, so we went to see him and got him. If I'd £1 for every time I've regretted that decision I'd be a millionaire. However, I console myself with the fact that those lab puppies would get good homes and Skye needed us.

Last Wednesday I was at a car boot sale and took Skye into it about half an hour before it ended, when lots of traders were packing up and there were less people about. I do this to keep him walking around people and other dogs, as we avoid them on our normal walks, so he can have fun.

A teenage girl came up and asked if she could speak to him. I crouched down and got his attention and told her yes. Of course she did what so many children seem to do nowadays and put her hand over his head, he lifted his head to look at the hand and she pulled her hand away. Unfortunately while I was explaining to her the right way to approach a dog her father came over and said yes that was right, you do it this way and shoved his hand right under Skye's nose. He took it away, then put it back and Skye did what he tends to do and pulled to reach the hand, with his mouth open (cos again that's what he always does and I usually warn people to expect this) but when the man pulled his hand away, Skye grabbed his t-shirt and managed to nip skin too. I was mortified. 

It wasn't Skye's fault, it was mine and the guy's. It was a classic case of Skye's space being invaded by an uninvited adult (and he is very wary of adults), but I was busy concentrating on the teenager and the guy caught me off guard and it all happened in a split second. After I apologised to the guy I went over to a trader who asked about the dog and listened to what I said and approached properly, ended up giving him a biscuit and showing me photos of his dog- all the while Skye just sat patiently waiting.

It wasn't a savage bite. it was a warning nip to keep the guy away, but his wife reacted badly and went ballistic. She reported me to the car boot organiser, who came and found me and asked me what had happened and then she found me and told me she wanted my address cos she was going to the police cos he was a dangerous dog, which made my guilt even worse. The car boot guy suggested that every dog could have a bad day, it didn't make him a bad dog, but she just went on and on about it might have been a child. Even though I told her that he had been fine with her daughter, but the husband had obviously frightened him with his direct approach. Then the boot guy asked her if she realised that if she reported it to the police Skye would very likely be put down and she said yes, that was what she wanted!

During all this the husband said one thing, which was "he's a lovely dog!", so no prizes for guessing who's in charge in that family! 

After they left I went back to the seller I'd been speaking to, to ask for his address in case the police did get involved and the car boot guy gestured me over behind a van to say that the people had told his wife that they weren't going to the police and he handed me the written note his wife had given to him. He was telling me behind the van because he didn't want them to see him telling me. 

So there's a lesson learned for me! I've ordered a high viz jacket from GSDR with "German Shepherd dog in training" on it and I will now muzzle him when I'm out where there will be people to meet At least then the jacket will hopefully explain to people that he isn't a dangerous dog, he's just a dog who's learning.


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

HABU said:


> my shihtzu/poodle was vicious as hell when i got her... attacked and bite everyone...
> 
> i turned her into an angel... sweet as pie!
> 
> it's never the dog... it's the owner who has the problem...


I never find this to be a helpful comment. Although true to a large extent, in many cases it's the previous owner(s) or breeder who are at fault and it's not a helpful thing to say to the current owner of the dog as they have inherited the problem and not created it.

Dog aggression and reactivity to other dogs is the most common behavioural problem that I see in rescue dogs coming into the kennels where I work and in some cases it can be remedied reasonably easily and in other cases it requires more of a management type approach which I think the OP's friend is more likely to have to adopt. 
I think a muzzle is essential for this dog and taking him to places such as dog shows is out of the question while he is behaving like this (and quite likely he'll never be suited to this kind of event as it would be overwhelming for him) as it's not safe for him or any other dogs around him. 
This is one way to help reduce dog to dog issues and make a dog like this more manageable (tasty treats that her dog loves are essential, a calm stooge dog that can be used for initial training sessions until he knows the drill is ideal as it allows for better control over the training):

Training him to focus on his owner when there are no distractions around would be the first step, so in the house, then the garden, then on a quiet walk....
Walking him in places where he will not contact any other dogs while he is learning to focus would be the ideal thing, then once he is focusing on his owner and following basic commands another dog can be used as part of his training.
She needs to work out what is threshold is. This means finding what distance he can be from another dog without showing any reaction. Once this is found she can start working him with another dog in his quiet walking area ,preferably using a non reactive dog that can be used for regular training sessions as this is not going to be a quick fix.
She needs to practice getting him to look at the other dog then back at her without reacting to the other dog. Reacting can mean anything from barking and lunging to staring at the other dog in a fixated manner. If he is reacting or staring she is over his threshold and needs to move him further away and slow the training down a bit before moving closer.
She can gradually move closer to the stooge dog if he can look at it and back at her calmly. He doesn't need to sit and stare at her after looking at the other dog just glance at her after looking at the dog so he can get a treat. It's ideal if he is standing rather than sitting as it makes the greeting part of the technique flow better.
Once he is able to be fairly close to the dog and still able to look back at the owner for a reward he can be walked past and allowed to sniff for a quick moment (as he has grabbed dogs before. Dogs with on lead frustration may find being whisked away quickly more frustrating and therefor more likely to provoke a reaction) then walked away again. This can be done by just walking past the other dog so it's less formal and avoid face to face interactions as that is more likely to create a reaction from either dog.
He may be able to reach this point with lots of persistence from his owner but it can be very slow progress and he may never be comfortable/safe at sniffing distance. If he can walk near to a dog and remain focused on his owner then that would make a difference to her being able to relax a bit more when walking him.
Another important point is that if the person walking the dog is constantly worrying that he will attack another dog when ever she sees one, the dog will pick up on this and is more likely to react. She needs to relax  If she is worried he may slip his collar or she may let go of him by accident then she can walk him on a half check which if fitted correctly is very hard to slip and get a lead that can attach to her wrist so she doesn't have to worry about these things. Also the muzzle which she needs to get will make her feel a bit more relaxed anyway, although I wouldn't recommend that just because he is wearing a muzzle he can be taken anywhere as this will just flood him or let him practice showing aggression to other dogs
There may always be particular breeds, colours, sizes etc of dogs that make him react so the more she can observe him and avoid the trigger the better
There are other techniques such as BAT: Behavioural Adjustment Training that can be used successfully too, the important thing is to persevere with a positive training technique and not keep half heartedly switching between techniques claiming nothing works, which is one reason why people give up on training their dog. Any negative type of training tends to suppress the dogs behaviour which will come back eventually and more than likely worse than before and causes a breakdown between the relationship of owner and dog, so avoid telling him off, yanking the lead, thinking she needs to be dominant etc are as these things are more likely to be counter productive.


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

samurai said:


> *Another important point is that if the person walking the dog is constantly worrying that he will attack another dog when ever she sees one, the dog will pick up on this and is more likely to react*. She needs to relax  If she is worried he may slip his collar or she may let go of him by accident then she can walk him on a half check which if fitted correctly is very hard to slip and get a lead that can attach to her wrist so she doesn't have to worry about these things. Also the muzzle which she needs to get will make her feel a bit more relaxed anyway, although I wouldn't recommend that just because he is wearing a muzzle he can be taken anywhere as this will just flood him or let him practice showing aggression to other dogs
> 
> 
> Great Write Up, Samurai!
> ...


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## Deano c (Jun 26, 2012)

I'am not a dog trainer and i'am not very experienced with this sort of thing but i do know someone who had a problem like your friends and he tried different methods and dog trainers which didn't work, but one thing that has is he bought a large chew toy and takes it out on every walk with him and after a couple of months his dog doesn't even look at other dogs anymore and he always walked his dog with a muzzle on, i'am not saying it will work but just thought i would let you know it might be worth trying if all else fails, hope your friend gets through it and i hope your dog was o.k after the attack it suffered.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Why is she walking him with no muzzle?? What happens if a kid is standing in the way??


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## YoshiHCG (Feb 21, 2012)

I have a lovely little border terrier, 6 years old now called Roxy. I've had her since she was born, she is gorgeous, i syringe fed her as she has a small cleft palate hole and couldn't suckle so we've got a good bond  she came home at 12 weeks from the place i bought her from (i worked there so saw her lots as she was young).

Anyway I was out walking her and my two other dogs (lab and mixed terrier) up the hill with my dad with roxy in tow, one of her first walks, she was loving it! 

We got to the top and a man with a large greyhound was approaching and then it all happened so fast, the greyhound saw Roxy and snapped her up, throwing her about and running around with her, squealing and crying. I was horrified, running trying to grab this dog who had my baby! I thought it was going to kill her, dad managed to grab a stick to shove at the dog to get it to release (that may sound harsh but we had to act quick to get it off roxy) and it did, i grabbed her up and got as far away as i could, the greyhound was mad eyed and still chasing me to get her.

All the while his owner? stood there and did nothing. he just watched and didnt offer any help.

Roxy is now not nasty but very timid and will submit straight away and if a dog gets too close she growls and will snap not to bite but to warn. She'll jump into my arms if any greyhound comes close too  its not something I can change I dont think, she'll always have a fear and I do too now, I get very nervous around greyhounds that are running loose...and I dont like it as some greyhounds are lovely but I just have the fear in me now that another one will do the same!

If someone has a greyhound or something similar thats an ex racer I do believe they should be muzzled...they'll have a chase and grab instinct from racing...I could be wrong but I do believe it saw roxy as a furry rabbit thing and chased her to get her.

Was horrible  but I wont tarnish all racer dogs as some are lovely but that was a day i wont forget, horrible day! and the owner showed no remorse, he just walked off without saying anything. made me so angry.

Roxy was fine just shaken up thankfully no lasting wounds. but she wont forget it either, she likes her space now and gets a little defensive but she's never attacked from that thankfully.


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

How awful for little Roxy Yoshi, I'm glad she was ok after such a traumatic experience. Unfortunately it's owners like this who are often responsible for causing other people's dogs to show fear aggression (there are other reason but this sort of thing is a prime example). Hopefully the greyhounds owner was shocked by this and didn't react as they were upset, but that's often not the case unfortunately.

I think you are right that the greyhound more than likely thought of Roxy as a rabbit and went into hunting mode (natural for the breed as that's their original purpose) so it's not the greyhounds fault. The owner should of had their dog muzzled on walks. We always send ex racers to their new homes with a muzzle to wear on walks and they are fine wearing them as they will have worn one during racing. 
Even a sight hound who hasn't raced has the potential to do this to another dog so it's up to owners to know their individual dog and if it has a strong chase instinct; not all do. I knew an ex racing greyhound who lived with a free ranging house rabbit and several cats and never made an attempt to hunt them.


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## YoshiHCG (Feb 21, 2012)

samurai said:


> How awful for little Roxy Yoshi, I'm glad she was ok after such a traumatic experience. Unfortunately it's owners like this who are often responsible for causing other people's dogs to show fear aggression (there are other reason but this sort of thing is a prime example). Hopefully the greyhounds owner was shocked by this and didn't react as they were upset, but that's often not the case unfortunately.
> 
> I think you are right that the greyhound more than likely thought of Roxy as a rabbit and went into hunting mode (natural for the breed as that's their original purpose) so it's not the greyhounds fault. The owner should of had their dog muzzled on walks. We always send ex racers to their new homes with a muzzle to wear on walks and they are fine wearing them as they will have worn one during racing.
> Even a sight hound who hasn't raced has the potential to do this to another dog so it's up to owners to know their individual dog and if it has a strong chase instinct; not all do. I knew an ex racing greyhound who lived with a free ranging house rabbit and several cats and never made an attempt to hunt them.


I know it wasnt the greyhounds fault it was just its natural hunting instinct which sadly took a fancy to Roxy. Sadly the owner wasn't sad or shocked just walked off not saying a word :/ ... 

thats good you send them on with a muzzle, if they are used to it then it should be carried on.

more needs to be done to educate owners of the breeds and what needs constant work and to learn the individual traits. breeders should hopefully be doing more work with this to help new owners make the right decision. Crufts is good to educate but so are a lot of dog rescues, it just depends on what you like and finding a dog that'll suit. I would love a husky but wouldn't get one until i know i have the time and space to work with one to train it correctly!


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## TractorTotty (Jun 3, 2013)

Thankyou for all of your replies, help and advice everyone! 

Sorry it has taken me a while to reply, I have read every reply as they were posted but I didn't feel that I had much to add at the time and was learning alot from the posts  

I have alot of experience with dogs also, and have successfully trained a couple of our very successful working gundogs ~ anybody who knows that will know that it takes alot of work! I have however never really dealt with a dog like my friend's.

I agree with everyone who said she should have him muzzled at all times ~ this was the first thing that I said to her. God forbid a child get caught in the way, like Selina said. 

I have read through all of the replies, and along with other research I have gathered, have compiled a 'list' of help for her, techniques, tips etc to try to help her get a control of Jedi's aggression. I have told her that she should probably accept he is never going to be "good" with other dogs, so instead of trying to make him like them, she is going to have to accept him for what he is and work with that. The main thing is to get him focused on her and being able to stop the lunging, barking and growling etc ~ at least then she may be able to start to relax and enjoy her walks with him, in time.

I do feel for her, it must really take the pleasure out of owning a dog. She says that she feels guilty saying that, because she adores him, but his aggression issues make him more of a burden than he could have been otherwise.

Deano, fortunately my boy was fine thankyou after being attacked by Jedi. I have even offered to let her borrow my two (with me, of course) as a sort of calming influence for Jedi whilst on walks, as Samurai was saying. They are such placid dogs, with very good manners, and I know from experience that if they are attacked or snapped at, they will not retaliate to him. My friend says she does not know of anybody else who will be willing to let their dogs meet and socialise with Jedi, even for training purposes, which I can understand.

I have told her about this thread and all of the wonderful replies, and on behalf of her I would like to say thankyou very very much for your help!

You are all fantastic :flrt:

Bry, Lily & Jedi <3


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## TalulaTarantula (Jan 21, 2011)

I used to own a dog aggressive dog, she was fine off the lead however (unfortunatly she was a runner so we couldnt let her off) but around the house she was perfectly fine
she came to us fine and one day while out on a walk her and my mum were attacked by two spaniels, 

Since that day misty changed, she was just such hard work, we tried numerous methods, 
she was fine walking with a dog if we introduced them over alot off days and in the end i could walk her with a friend and her border collie, however when we came across a strange dog, hackles up, snarling and lunging, 

It got such a pain, i had to constantly keep my gaurd up, walk her at times when i wouldnt expect to come across other dog walkers
she was a GSD husky so had a lot of energy and was always a stress taking her out.

when she started to show progress, something would trigger her to just go back to her usual self.
she then started lunging at lorries,and cyclist.

We got her at 15months, she didnt no what grass was, and had been teased by the kids, (she was a biter when she came to us)
We just adapted to her in the end. out of all the dogs ive worked with, trained, and just spent time with shes been the most difficult.

I now have a new dog we rescued who is perfect in everyway, and even now i still find myseld tensing up when i come across new dogs, people on bikes ect because of my experiences with owning a dog agressive dog.

I have also worked and trained other dog aggressive dogs, and theyve all had different factors contributing to why they're the way they are.

some is litrrally down to bad breeding, i've a friend, she has a staff x, she has done everything right that an owner can do, and he's still turned, his parents are a bit off, his dam can be funny with people and animals and the sire is fine with people but not dogs.

I can say the same for a friends akita, owner did everything right, but he just hated other dogs, he has recently been PTS as he has attacked numerous dogs, killed cats and other animals too.

And some is down to having something happen in their lives,
some can do really well with alot of patience, time and training and can come out dog friendly,

others, you just have to adapt your life around them.

In future, when looking to rescue another dog, i will happily avoid a tempermental/agressive dog, because i honestly cant deal with the constant stress lol


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I fully understand how your friend feels, there's no question that it's very stressful walking a dog aggressive dog and it robs you of a lot of what is usually a pleasurable part of owning a dog.

I took Skye to 'playgroup' on Sunday for the first time in about 2 months due to circumstances and he just barked almost non-stop for the whole hour and I had to keep him on the lead, as there were 2 hyper dogs, a juvenile spaniel and juvenile Vizla. The Visla never stopped barking with excitement for the whole session and because those 2 were running around like idiots he just couldn't cope with them.

However, we also joined a GSD group walk (not through GSDR, just members who decided to have an informal get together) at the beach straight after this and when we let him off the leash, he just ran into the group and ran around following them. We walked away from the main bunch and took off his muzzle so he could swim and retrieve and wear off a bit of energy and he was great. One bitch in particular took a real shine to him (he's very handsome of course :lol and chased him everywhere, but when we joined the main group we put the muzzle on just in case.

So he is making great strides and maybe in another year we might get the muzzle off altogether - although given our thoughts when we first got him and how he's turned out, maybe that's a bit optimistic and it might be another 3, but I'm certain it will eventually come.


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## Jonathan4 (Nov 19, 2010)

feorag said:


> That's what keeps me going. I'm waiting until he's old and calms down! :lol:
> 
> When we first got him my husband said he'd be about 5-6 year old before he'd be the dog he was portrayed to us to be. We've since revised that to 8-9! :lol2:
> We are just waiting for him to get too old to care, I guess! Then we might be able to relax and really enjoy him.
> ...


I honetly dont think your dog will calm with age if he hasnt by 4-5 and when he becomes old will most likly get worse, worse case scenario, it will spread not only to dogs but to people.

I say this from personal experience with other dogs i know, your case might be different, but from my experience, i dont think so.


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## Jonathan4 (Nov 19, 2010)

I'm not trying to start any up set, but your friend was unbelievably irresponsible to allow a dog like that out on a dog day or even public knowing what it is like without a mussel. f it where my dog that where attacked id be prosecuting.

I would ether put the dog down or put the dog in a purpose build enclosure like a tiger, with the second one being impossible in the UK it would be the first option. There are Far to many healthy loving dogs that are workable being put down every day that deserve much more of a chance of a good home, she could even home 2. 

Another good example of how other breeds are just as bad as Bull breeds, if any of my dogs APBT as well in Thailand showed any of this kind of aggression they would never leave the farm.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Jonathan4 said:


> I honetly dont think your dog will calm with age if he hasnt by 4-5 and when he becomes old will most likly get worse, worse case scenario, it will spread not only to dogs but to people.
> 
> I say this from personal experience with other dogs i know, your case might be different, but from my experience, i dont think so.


Well my last one did! He was a very anxious dog, who didn't like anyone he didn't know, but when he got to about 5-6 he calmed down a lot and became a lot less anxious around strangers.

Time will tell with this dog, because he's also high energy, whereas my previous one was laidback, so we'll wait and see.


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## Jonathan4 (Nov 19, 2010)

feorag said:


> Well my last one did! He was a very anxious dog, who didn't like anyone he didn't know, but when he got to about 5-6 he calmed down a lot and became a lot less anxious around strangers.
> 
> Time will tell with this dog, because he's also high energy, whereas my previous one was laidback, so we'll wait and see.


I honestly wish you the best on that one, sincerely not in a patronizing way.

I rember when i was a child and my grandads mum had this horrid English sheep dog, she went every where with thing and the do hatted every one that wasn't my Grandads mum, mind you was a bit like the batty old cow her self.


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## TractorTotty (Jun 3, 2013)

Jonathan4 said:


> I'm not trying to start any up set, but your friend was unbelievably irresponsible to allow a dog like that out on a dog day or even public knowing what it is like without a mussel. f it where my dog that where attacked id be prosecuting.
> 
> I would ether put the dog down or put the dog in a purpose build enclosure like a tiger, with the second one being impossible in the UK it would be the first option. There are Far to many healthy loving dogs that are workable being put down every day that deserve much more of a chance of a good home, she could even home 2.
> 
> Another good example of how other breeds are just as bad as Bull breeds, if any of my dogs APBT as well in Thailand showed any of this kind of aggression they would never leave the farm.


I have to say that I do agree with you that she was irresponsible to take Jedi to the dog show, knowing what he was like. I had no idea; if I had known, of would have discouraged it too! I would also be on the side of the eldery lady who's shitzu was bitten, if she did decide to prosecute. 

However I don't think that putting the dog down is the answer; at least not just yet. That would be a great shame to put down every aggressive dog and just 'replace' it with another 'nicer' one. I for one know that if I had an aggressive dog, putting it down would be an absolute last resort. There are so many other things that could be tried with Jedi - lots of work that can be done with him. I understand in some situations it really is the best answer, but there are many things that can be done here - the most important ones being muzzling him and NOT taking him to dog shows and the like, and I sincerely hope my friend has learnt her lesson!

I also don't agree with your comment about other dogs being 'just as bad as bull breeds'! Remember _my dog that was bitten by Jedi_ is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier! I don't want to get into a breed debate because it never ends well, so that is all I am going to say on that issue.

With regards to you not allowing aggressive dogs off of the farm, do you mean farm in the literal agricultural sense? As we are also farmers and live on a large farm estate, and I have actually considered rescuing a 'lost cause' aggressive dog at some point in the future with the view that he/she will not actually have to leave the farm at all, and can still live a happy life but under complete control, on private land, and not have to mix with the public at all. Of course I cannot speak from experience on this one as this is just an idea, but that is something I would like to do.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

Dog aggressive dogs seem the majority around our way. Without fail on every walk we will come across at least one dog that goes mental at our lab. I was told it's because our lab is black and dogs have trouble reading black dogs body language. It's never one particular breed even other labs have gone for him. It's quite frustrating as he's getting very little positive dog interaction and gets upset at being barked/growled at. He's 17 months old now and I'm not sure what impact this is going to have on him as he gets older.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I don't know what breeds of dogs these are, obviously, but I do find myself wondering how many of them are herding dogs?

I ask because it's a pretty well accepted fact that herding dogs can have a 'thing' about Labradors.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

feorag said:


> I don't know what breeds of dogs these are, obviously, but I do find myself wondering how many of them are herding dogs?
> 
> I ask because it's a pretty well accepted fact that herding dogs can have a 'thing' about Labradors.


I'm not familiar with all breeds but other labs, grey hounds, golden retrievers and a variety of small dogs short haired and long. The lady with the greyhounds did say they didn't like any dogs.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

The problem is that herding dogs and retrieving dogs were bred for a different specific purpose, herding dogs to protect their flocks and retrieving dogs to sit for maybe hours and then retrieve a kill. 

Herding dogs do tend to have a thing about "their space", because they are bred to protect and Labradors do have a thing about rushing in with the "hail fellow well met" approach and invade their space and they don't like it!


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Bear tolerates one retriever and one only, jess my black lab. any other gun dog / retrieving breed pretty much spells hard work for me...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Skye definitely has a thing about Labradors! :2thumb:


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## GeorgiaAndJayFuzz (Jan 27, 2013)

Rocco my EBT is very dog aggressive, and men aggressive. Especially if I'm alone. 
He is trained as a protection dog, not because I wanted stature, but because he was absoloutely mental as a puppy, he was boisterous, he was difficult. I took him to SOOOO many puppies classes, he was thrown out of many. He hated other dogs, he hated people, he thought he was the boss. He chewed, he wee'd, he did what he wanted. It was embarrassing to tell u the truth. I had him castrated first chance I could, I tried being nice to him, I shouted at him, I lost my temper with him, but Rocco did what Rocco wanted. I was at my wits end when my boss (I worked in security at the time) said, "you've got your dog handlers license haven't you?" Which I had, "why don't you give Rocco a job?" So it clicked! I took Rocco on an intensive course, which he absoloutely loved. Finally I had control over my dog, he had a job, he had a purpose. Gone where the days of sitting on the floor crying, he walked at heel, no lead, completely listening to every word I said. 
I don't work in security anymore, so Rocco isn't used, but I still take him on training days, and practice with him when out walking. 
He wears a leather harness out walking (no, not a chavvy one with gold bits, just a plain brown one :blush with a big red collar with says CAUTION, I also walk with the matching lead round my neck. I make sure that I always have a ball in my pocket, or a treat. Wen I see another dog walking towards us, I just whistle him back and distract him until the other dog has walked past. Luckily enough, most people give us a wide birth anyway. If I introduce him to other dogs, he's always fine. But i need to co e down to his level and Introduce them.
The ONLY time I've ever had a problem was during the snow earlier this year, I hadn't been able to take him for a run because I couldn't get the car out. The house that we where living in, had some woods behind, but the stories about them weren't that great, but he was driving me crazy so I took him through. It was about 10am on a Sunday morning so I thought I was safe. I got about half way round when I could smell cannabis, I started walking up the hill, where I was confronted by a group of about 7-8 men aged between 18-40. I was attacked by a a couple of men when I was 18, so naturally I tensed. Rocco instantly felt it and was right by my side. One of the men tried to get me into a conversation with him, and made a comment about how he had seen me before, and didn't I have 2 EBT, and isn't he handsome. He stepped towards me, Rocco stood tall and blew out, and slightly curled his lip. I warned the bloke to not step any closer, he is a protection dog. He didn't listen and started walking towards me, Rocco lunged at him, lips curled, growling like a bear. The bloke retreated quickly and Rocco returned to my side. Safe to say my boy made me feel safe. 

Training him as a protection dog, has really saved his life.ok it hasn't cured issues of dog aggression, but as long as I distract him, he's fine. But atleast I can handle my dog, I know him inside out. Having an aggressive dog isn't all that bad, as long as you know how to handle them :blush:


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## Coconutter (Mar 30, 2011)

I have a Shar-pei who has minor dog aggression issues, never bit or actually hurt another dog fortunately though. A mixture of a lack of socialization as a pup (massive error on our part) and the way peis have features bred into them that don't read very well with other dogs. So she is a fight starter and this very early on led us into some nasty situations with off lead dogs and owners the other side of the park calmly pacing over :censor:. After a few incidents she just became very intolerant of dogs that approached her and became very lungey and growly whenever another dog got even remotely close. We worked on it tough, she calmed down a lot and now she ignores most other dogs unless they come very close to her (off lead dogs generally) or dogs aggressively trying to get to her. Sort of came to the conclusion that she isn't aggressive rather just really anxious. 

Not much I can really add to everything that's already been said- I think the big thing is obviously wearing a muzzle, distraction techniques and then desensitization towards other dogs- unlikely he'll ever feel happy around other dogs but you can normally get to some level of comfort. Don't know if your friend has already tried it but I know a few trainers focus on using specially trained dogs to teach the aggressive dog that other dogs are alright (so dog teaching dog) and it seems to have been fairly successful so may be worth looking into.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I definitely think Skye's reaction to dogs is anxiety based rather than aggressive based. :2thumb:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

bear just wants to kill things :whistling2: :whip:


nah main problem,s i have a territorial aggression (flock guardian 101). and also he is 23 months large breed, very dominant so anything overly sure of its self can be a bit of a issue on paper. But in reality as long as i am a ware of it its perfectly manageable to deal with now.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Sorry to be thick, what dogs are herding dogs? I would hazard a guess at collies and GSD's, but it is literally just a guess. I only have one dog, an APBT (legal and exempt) and have had her 5 years, so my knowledge of other dogs is limited :blush:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, collies, GSDs, any shepherd dog bred to herd animals!


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## Jonathan4 (Nov 19, 2010)

TractorTotty said:


> I have to say that I do agree with you that she was irresponsible to take Jedi to the dog show, knowing what he was like. I had no idea; if I had known, of would have discouraged it too! I would also be on the side of the eldery lady who's shitzu was bitten, if she did decide to prosecute.
> 
> However I don't think that putting the dog down is the answer; at least not just yet. That would be a great shame to put down every aggressive dog and just 'replace' it with another 'nicer' one. I for one know that if I had an aggressive dog, putting it down would be an absolute last resort. There are so many other things that could be tried with Jedi - lots of work that can be done with him. I understand in some situations it really is the best answer, but there are many things that can be done here - the most important ones being muzzling him and NOT taking him to dog shows and the like, and I sincerely hope my friend has learnt her lesson!
> 
> ...


What i said abot being just as bad didnt come out right. I meant that bull breeds are no more worse than any other bull breed, I am a APBT fanatic they are the best pet dogs i have ever come across, i enjoy country sports in the uk so have been around and had all sorts of other dogs i also had other breeds that are often used in k9 along with a Pomeranian that was given to me and is a loving family pet that lives in my Bangkok apartment. I meant to say it baffles me how people can condemn bull breeds when they know nothing about them especially the statistics of attacks and bite pressure from APBT other wise they wouldn't condemn them.

Yes i mean Farm Farm as the place where people grow crops, breed cows (in my case crocodiles) I love having dogs on the farm I have APBT's living with common Thai mongrals and they live fine together, the only ones that show agresion to people are some of the mongrels, but are normally fine after a couple of visits, there are other people that have dogs that are dog aggressive even some people that have dogs that are aggressive of anything that moves and will chase any other dog or person miles who does as much as pass there home and yes i have been chased.


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## Jonathan4 (Nov 19, 2010)

HABU said:


> my shihtzu/poodle was vicious as hell when i got her... attacked and bite everyone...
> 
> i turned her into an angel... sweet as pie!
> 
> ...


Maybe you can explain how a shihtzu less pointless than AMPB and if you can honestly tell me that a APBT is ugly, well then i needn't comment on that.


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