# (Leos) Supersnow with Jungle influence?



## piehunter (Jul 10, 2007)

I have a couple of male Jungle Tabinos and would like to spread the jungle influence to Mack and poss Super snow.

If bred to a reg super snow Talbino would they just produce mack snow Talbinos, some with the jungle pattern and some without?

How does the jungle pattern 'part/gene' work when trying to calculate outcomes as i'm wondering if you would get a slightly different variation of SSA using 2 mack snow Talbinos with jungle patterning.

Thanks for looking


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

You will never effect the patterning in SS unless you combine it with something like patternless or blizzard. So jungle super snow is out of the questions.

Jungle isnt a genetic trait so cant be calculated, some people reckon jungle is line bred and can be passed on other say incubation temps cause jungle patterning.

I personally believe it can be passed on but with no consistency ie 2 jungles wont nessacerily produce jungles, and 2 non jungles could produce all jungles.

You'll have to go from Mack snow jungle or Tremper snow jungle.

So....
SS x Jungle tremper =
100% Mack snows het tremper (and hope some are jungle)

Or
Mack snow x Jungle Tremper =
50% Normal het tremper
50% Mack snow het trmeper
Again hope some are jugnlwe

Then Mack snow het Tremper (who hopefully was a jungle) x Jungle Tremper.=-
25% Normal het tremper
25% Tremper 
25% Mack het tremper
25% Tremper snow
Hoping some of them are jungle.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

piehunter said:


> I have a couple of male Jungle Tabinos and would like to spread the jungle influence to Mack and poss Super snow.
> 
> If bred to a reg super snow Talbino would they just produce mack snow Talbinos, some with the jungle pattern and some without?
> 
> ...


You will not get super snow jungles they won't express the jungle patterning.

Talbino jungle X Super snow = .

Snow HET Talbino.

The offspring may express body pattern of Banded,Aberrant,And Jungle is possible.

Jungle is a polygenetic trait end result of line breeding.Outcomes can can be unpredictable.And can not be prodicted like Codom,Dom,Recessive traits.
Results can be roughly prodicted by breeding leo's that carry or are expressings jungle.It is a trait that can be pass on just not as esay as Codom,Dom,Recessive traits to work out.


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## piehunter (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks for clearing that up guys :2thumb:


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

The point to remember about *polygenic* traits is that each loci which is involved in its make-up will interact in different ways, producing varying phenotypes. Changing the allele(s) at a single loci can cause unexpected phenotypic variation, due to these unpredictable interactions.

I do have one question though, why can you not have a jungle super snow? Is it just that it has not happened, or that it can not happen?

Andy


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I do have one question though, why can you not have a jungle super snow? Is it just that it has not happened, or that it can not happen?
> 
> Andy


If jungle was Codom,Dom or Recessive you could have a Jungle super snow.Though it wouldn't express the pattern you could prove it's there Being express in the leo.But with jungle being a polygenic trait you can't prove that a leo is expressing jungle even though it genetic info maybe saying it is.Same as you *CAN* get super snow hypo though the super snow will show *NO* hypo influance it self.Coz on a hypo the spots are retained the in the darker bands.But the super snow has these darker bands all over there body.

To be jungle the boby and tail bands have to expressed in a Aberrant pattern.On a super snow they have more of a uniform striped pattern going on that genetically locked to the **** form of soild eye,No color,And patterning following a dorsal striped so can be expressed in a aberrant patterning.The bands are always expressed in a full vertical striped.Where on *non* super snows there are horizontal body and tail bands.

Snow note the banding.And note that the super snow over all color is the same as the snows banding color.









Super snow note that there is no banding as such other than the dorsal striped dividing the body into two halfs.









Acceptable reply ?.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Interesting, and although I agree with most of what you say, although my suspicion is that it could in fact be possible break the pattern in super snows to express an aberrant pattern. My understanding is that 'enigma' will cause super snows to pattern irregularly, which means that modification at or of this locus is possible.

I would be interested to know if people see natural variation in the patterning of super snows, as it is clear that attempting to breed a polygenic trait which affects different loci into super snows, would be impossible, however, line breeding super snows which express any degree of aberrant patterning may be possible.

Andy


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

GlasgowGecko said:


> My understanding is that 'enigma' will cause super snows to pattern irregularly, which means that modification at or of this locus is possible.


Irregular spotting and irregular banding are not the same thing.

Enigma express in super snow dosen't effect the banding but it dose affect the spotting as a hatchling but they look pretty standed super snow as adult with a look of there own.Super snow can express a patterning that looks aberrant but it's only spotting arrangment NOT that the banding is Aberrant.

There are three strains of spotting that give differant looks.
But it's away head nose to vent.
1/Standed spotting.









2/Hyper spotting.









3/Fused/marbled spotting.This can give a very jungle look.

















Super snow enigma.Not looking all that differant.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

You are of course right, aberrant banding and aberrant spotting are not the same thing, and I guess your deffinition of 'jungle' would play an important role here. I suspect in the short term line breeding a very 'jungle' looking individual is entirely possible, but this trait would not be aberrant banding, but could perhaps be considered a polygenic jungle characteristic in super snows.

I think what is key for this question for creating aberrant banded super snows revolves around our understanding of what and how certain modifiers can affect a gene that is effectively creating hyper banded individuals, and with this in mind, I don't see it be impossible, that of course doesn't make it currently possibe though... What I would say is very clear, is that there is no way of transfering current 'jungle' traits to a super snow to create a phenotypic response. In order to do that, seperate super snow specific genotypic combinations would need to be achieved.

Andy


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

GlasgowGecko said:


> You are of course right, aberrant banding and aberrant spotting are not the same thing, and I guess your deffinition of 'jungle' would play an important role here. I suspect in the short term line breeding a very 'jungle' looking individual is entirely possible, but this trait would not be aberrant banding, but could perhaps be considered a polygenic jungle characteristic in super snows.
> 
> I think what is key for this question for creating aberrant banded super snows revolves around our understanding of what and how certain modifiers can affect a gene that is effectively creating hyper banded individuals, and with this in mind, I don't see it be impossible, that of course doesn't make it currently possibe though... What I would say is very clear, is that there is no way of transfering current 'jungle' traits to a super snow to create a phenotypic response. In order to do that, seperate super snow specific genotypic combinations would need to be achieved.
> 
> Andy


I am ofcourse with you that it's possible to create a line of super snow not looking like the regular types.But would be a lot of work and a fair amout of years.

Example i don't think this would be impossible.But not easy either.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Agreed. A very interesting venture though.

Andy


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