# Noob Q! Springtails Introduction



## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Hey guys!

New to the world of springtails so please forgive my noob question :bash:

Just finished a simple new build for my young pair of Tigers and wanted to know the best route to add springtails... is it ok to add them to a new build and just a case of adding the culture to the base layer and letting nature take its course or is it best to let the plants and foilage settle for a few weeks?

Heres the new planted setup










Female having a poke around her new home











Thanks guys!

James


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## berksmike (Jan 2, 2008)

Just add them direct to your substrate mate
with a new viv youll get plenty of mould to keep them happy as well as frog waste


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Cheers pal!

As you can tell, not really up to speed this the whole natural look so am I right in thinking that springs and the likes clean up the place? 

What about them climbing out of the tank and spreading throughout the house (mrs needs to know that lol!).


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

they wont, they tend to like the dark and will congregate under rocks or wood etc so they are very unlikely to go for a walk outside the tank.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Thank fook for that! Mrs would litterally kill me if they went walk about, cheers J.

James


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## samsnake (Mar 10, 2009)

Wow I love your set up and adore the frog 
Can i ask what type of frog it is and how much they are?
I really want to add to my growing collection at some point and she is stunning!!
Thanks Sam x


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Hi Sam, thanks.

They are Tiger Waxy Monkey Frogs and cost me £80 for the pair. Very quirky personalities and not shy at all. Their still only babies but the male has a right pair of lungs on him (lime green one at the back).


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## samsnake (Mar 10, 2009)

Awwww me want some 
I am quite new to frogs and have seen and drooled over Waxy Monkeys but the price of them put me off as I was worried that I might do something wrong. Have to say though the Tiger Legs are even more stunning. Is their care similar to Waxy Monkeys?
Think if they are not too hard to look after and easy to get hold of I would like to consider these in the future.
Sam x


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Hi Sam, they can be quite pricey but well worth the initial outlay. It's the first time I've kept them tbh but when I saw them @ a local store I had to have them.

I've kept and bred Red Eyes for over a decade now so I knew I'd be able to provide the right care as they require the same if not exact setup and climate etc..

If truth be told, their care is a million miles away from that of the True Waxy Monkey Frog (Phyllomedusa Sauvagii). This frog requires a very hot and dry climate and will literally stay basking all day long. Whereas the Tigers stay tucked away but when the lights go out, boy do they provide some entertainment. They seem to egg each other on!


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

OO mate they loverly them .. Love the tank pal! very nice set up :2thumb:


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## samsnake (Mar 10, 2009)

So they are more like a normal tree frog in regards to humidity and heat then. Thanks for the info, I can not find a care sheet for them any where.

I did research the Waxy Monkey and liked the fact that I did not have to worry about the humidity and that they are visable during the day but my pennies will not stretch to £100 per frog at the moment  Wish it did though as I think they are amazing!


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Keano said:


> OO mate they loverly them .. Love the tank pal! very nice set up :2thumb:


Thanks Keano, my first natural build without using polyfoam or any background so its a start I guess. I like the idea of letting the frogs roam fully around the root without it being plastered to the background.



samsnake said:


> So they are more like a normal tree frog in regards to humidity and heat then. Thanks for the info, I can not find a care sheet for them any where.
> 
> I did research the Waxy Monkey and liked the fact that I did not have to worry about the humidity and that they are visable during the day but my pennies will not stretch to £100 per frog at the moment  Wish it did though as I think they are amazing!


In a way Sam, yes. Since I have had them, I have had no trouble with them at all. If you look up Red Eye Tree Frog care you wont go to far wrong really.

I'll try and get some pics of my adult and baby Sauvagii to give you an idea on the different setup (dry).

Thanks peeps!

James


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Hi James,

Myself, I wouldn't add springtails to a tank that holds a frog that won't eat them. The population could explode and may stress your frogs. I would add Isopods instead. 

Best


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Thanks Glenn, too late arghhhhh!!! Added them last night.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> Hi James,
> 
> Myself, I wouldn't add springtails to a tank that holds a frog that won't eat them. The population could explode and may stress your frogs. I would add Isopods instead.
> 
> Best


I disagree completely- I have them in all my tanks, including the corn and the plated lizard. I also use 'live' leafmould, though, so they are probably controlled at least in part by the other imported beasties. 

Oh, and James, you can reasure your partner; the atmosphere in the average home is way too dry for them- they'll stay in the much more comfortable viv environment.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Thanks Ron, I think she was under the impression that they would end up all over the house!!


They can't half jump, 100 or so must of escaped as soon as I opened the flipping lid. On last night's feed, a cricket must of shed its skin as this morning, there's a whole swarm of them munching it up. Early days but a promising start. May look at some of those tropical woodlice if I can get them on Sunday @ BAKS... if you get some random questions about them then you know its me! 



Gratz folks!


James


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## DaveWillisHertsARG (Jul 8, 2012)

*Springtail question*

So are these kept primarily as cleaners, or as food for smaller amphibians?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DaveWillisHertsARG said:


> So are these kept primarily as cleaners, or as food for smaller amphibians?


they fullfill both purposes David, in a planted tank set up

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> I disagree completely- I have them in all my tanks, including the corn and the plated lizard. I also use 'live' leafmould, though, so they are probably controlled at least in part by the other imported beasties.
> 
> Oh, and James, you can reasure your partner; the atmosphere in the average home is way too dry for them- they'll stay in the much more comfortable viv environment.


James the bit about Ron using live leafmould will be why you are getting differing points of view here,Dart keepers tend to sterilise their leafmould,as we want a blooming springtail culture in viv,we try to avoid natural predators of them in viv such as the massive pain to a dartkeeper,nemerteans,these wont be the same kind of issue to guys keeping large frogs,not so dependent on springs as a feeder

Stu


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Just out of curiosity... if the springtail numbers do start to be quite overwhelming, is there another cleaner bug that could potentially keep the spring number down? i.e. feed on the little hoppers as well as all the waste build up?


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> James the bit about Ron using live leafmould will be why you are getting differing points of view here,Dart keepers tend to sterilise their leafmould,as we want a blooming springtail culture in viv,we try to avoid natural predators of them in viv such as the massive pain to a dartkeeper,nemerteans,these wont be the same kind of issue to guys keeping large frogs,not so dependent on springs as a feeder
> 
> Stu


Thanks Stu... I think you just answered my Q (typing at the same time lol) : victory:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

DaveWillisHertsARG said:


> So are these kept primarily as cleaners, or as food for smaller amphibians?





soundstounite said:


> they fullfill both purposes David, in a planted tank set up
> 
> Stu





soundstounite said:


> James the bit about Ron using live leafmould will be why you are getting differing points of view here,Dart keepers tend to sterilise their leafmould,as we want a blooming springtail culture in viv,we try to avoid natural predators of them in viv such as the massive pain to a dartkeeper,nemerteans,these wont be the same kind of issue to guys keeping large frogs,not so dependent on springs as a feeder
> 
> Stu


Exactamundo! :no1:


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## berksmike (Jan 2, 2008)

Shes probably thinking of silverfish
Rons right in that they need it moister,than average house conditions
The population will probably sort itself out - i find if left numbers tend to tail off after a big boom which is why i always split cultures after a boom. Seems to be related to popoulation density


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

All I know Mike is that when I showed her the tub, she gave me that look #!#

Just empted another pot full into a further new natural build... you Dart boys have given be the bug now, just a case a creating the other 23 tanks now!










Male Tiger, nesting in one of the Broms


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> I disagree completely- I have them in all my tanks, including the corn and the plated lizard. I also use 'live' leafmould, though, so they are probably controlled at least in part by the other imported beasties.


I probably spoke out of turn here, Ron. What is "live" leafmould? I have lost froglets when overwhelming them with springs.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> I probably spoke out of turn here, Ron. What is "live" leafmould? I have lost froglets when overwhelming them with springs.


No, mate, you weren't out of turn! :2thumb:
'Live' leafmould is the unsterilised version, used as is, with all the various bugs and fungi still in it. It's quite popular over here, as it is virtually self-cleaning, and good for plant growth.

I collect mine from a clean mixed beech and sweet chesnut wood high up on the North Downs.


With added tropical woodlice and springtails, you get a kind of 'mixed' ecology, which works well for me.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

So, basically forest floor mulch? :blush:

BTW I don't subscribe to the "bake and boil" approach and don't bleach plants. I do dry my leaves for a month though as it's said to kill off Chytrid.

Thanks Ron


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> So, basically forest floor mulch? :blush:
> 
> BTW I don't subscribe to the "bake and boil" approach and don't bleach plants. I do dry my leaves for a month though as it's said to kill off Chytrid.
> 
> Thanks Ron


yup the part rotted build up of leaves from a deciduous woodland floor,same stuff i'm using with all these iso/woodlice cultures Glenn.
We seem on the whole to be way more relaxed about the in viv sterilisation process than the yanks,that also extends to wild feeders,there are risks,but so far i personally don't know of anyone that has suffered problems,other than snails and nemerteans. i leave all the oak we collect up in the air,and let the wind and sun do the sterilising,but i nuke all subs and do boil all my leaves,primarily because of nemerteans and ruddy snails

Stu


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> i leave all the oak we collect up in the air,and let the wind and sun do the sterilising


This isn't done here, so bare with me please. Using that method would it not dry out and potentialy kill all the microfauna and organisms that you're after? Or, do the eggs survive? What is the purpose of doing this?

I feel like I did when I just got started. lol Asking basic questions that you guys see as a no brainer. :blush: That said, I hope to learn so new tips and tricks.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> This isn't done here, so bare with me please. Using that method would it not dry out and potentialy kill all the microfauna and organisms that you're after? Or, do the eggs survive? What is the purpose of doing this?
> 
> I feel like I did when I just got started. lol Asking basic questions that you guys see as a no brainer. :blush: That said, I hope to learn so new tips and tricks.


Nah, it's just a difference in technique- and we all borrow from each other on here!

Because Stu keeps darts, and the springtails are an important part of their diet, he doesn't want anything in his leaves or soil that might reduce their number, so he *does* 'nuke' (microwave) his soil and so on, especially to get rid of nemerteans (nemotode-like predators). He also doesn't want any snails to damage his plants. In my case, a certain amount of predation is acceptable; since all my frogs are bigger, springs don't figure as food, just as cleaners, so the population size isn't especially critical. As for snails and slugs, I actually add them as prey items- they don't usually last long enough to damage anything! :lol2:


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for clearing that up Ron, but I still don't get gathering a bunch of forest mulch and nuking it. What is the benefit of the mulch then? Being that I only keep Darts I need smaller food items as well.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Well, it still makes for a better soil structure and it's good for growing plants, but actually, this is one of those Friendly Disagreements! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Although I don't keep darts (which probably makes me unqualified to argue, but hey!) I personally think it's worth risking the loss of a few springs to get the wider ecology gained by not sterilising. And actually, in some of my damper tanks, like The Fat Bastard's (yes, that's his actual name!), my African bullfrog, the spring population is pretty high, despite not taking any of those precautions- I use leaves from there to 'seed' new tanks. But as I said, we all have our methods, and no-one could argue with the breeding success Stu is having! :notworthy:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I can possibly answer the question better than Ron in relation to darts. The simple answer is Stu ISN'T using 'mulch' (as in leaf mould) in his dart vivs, but rather leaf litter. We scatter it on the surface of the substrate, often instead of using moss. It gives a much more natural look to a viv, and a lot of darts look much better sat on leaf litter than they do on moss. Also some frogs that can be shy seem to become much bolder when kept with leaf litter. Finally as it breaks down etc it provides food for those springtails and isopods added directly rather than in 'mulch'.

You can see in this photograph how I have used a lot of leaf litter:-










That's my oophaga pumilio San Cristobal viv, they have bred for me a few times now and touch wood I have not lost a single froglet yet.

Ron on the otherhand uses leaf mould, partially rotted leaf litter that is full of inverts, funghi etc as a natural substrate and additional source of food.

So not the same thing really. Hope that makes more sense? Surprised you haven't come across the use of leaf litter before to be honest, I know it gets discussed quite regularly over on Dendroboard as that's where I first read about it back when I got started.

To get back on topic, I seed all of my vivs with springtails, as already mentioned without additional feeding numbers soon settle down. In fact I find that I end up with much larger numbers of dwarf isopods in tree frog vivs than I do springtails.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Actually , Ade, I think Stu uses both. Good destinction, though.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

In his substrate possibly, but then most of us dart keepers put ground up leaf litter into our substrates. I used composted bark once as well but found it expensive and did nothing more than just the usual mix of orchid bark, tree fern fibers and moss peat.

But aye, the distinction is still there between leaf litter and live leaf mould. Oh and I don't sterilise my leaf litter either, but no idea if the folks I buy it off do. lol It is however always purchased bone dry.

I am finding more and more though that THE best leaf litter is dead brom leaves. Looks much more 'jungle' than a bunch of oak leaves.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> In his substrate possibly, but then most of us dart keepers put ground up leaf litter into our substrates. I used composted bark once as well but found it expensive and did nothing more than just the usual mix of orchid bark, tree fern fibers and moss peat.
> 
> But aye, the distinction is still there between leaf litter and live leaf mould. Oh and I don't sterilise my leaf litter either, but no idea if the folks I buy it off do. lol It is however always purchased bone dry.
> 
> ...


I'm using camelia leaves more and more for the same reason- they're nearly as long-lasting, and *nothing* screams 'English woodland' more than oak leaves, to me. I use sycamore, hazel, beech etc mixed in, but it's the camelia leaves that last longest.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yeah, I wish I knew what species the trees on the left hand side of our garden were, I am going to have tons of dried ones soon as had to cut off a LOT of branches as they blocked our Sky signal! Plus the leaves aren't quite so English woodland as oak leaves. lol

I've used magnolia in the past, but in smaller vivs I get sick of ripping them up.

Dead leaves most definitely have a place in vivs for me though.  I read somewhere once about using dendrobium leaves too, but my dendrobiums don't lose that many leaves. lol

Ade


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> I can possibly answer the question better than Ron in relation to darts. The simple answer is Stu ISN'T using 'mulch' (as in leaf mould) in his dart vivs, but rather leaf litter. We scatter it on the surface of the substrate, often instead of using moss.


Thanks Ade,

I use tons of leaf litter. It was the leaf mould (mulch) that had me confused. I've never heard of that term before. My tanks are primarily leaf litter and wood on the floor. I use _maybe_ one terrestrial plant per viv. 

Here's a bank of 3


Cheers


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Think of leaf mould as partly composted leaf litter Glenn, as that's basically what it is. 

Ade


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Got it Ade :no1:

I googled it and it's def a term used in the UK. :blush:

BBC - Gardening Blog: Leaf Mould

So, the balls in your court guys. Why are sterilized half rotted leaves better then fresh. They'll be rotting in no time flat...:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Cheers


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> Got it Ade :no1:
> 
> I googled it and it's def a term used in the UK. :blush:
> 
> ...


simply because we use them on tank set up Glenn,after that its whole leaves all the way,i agree it doesn't take long for the rotting cycle to start up,but initially for me anyway,with my iso doing so well with leaves in various stages of decay,i bung this in tank as well,and seem to get great results with the feeders kicking off really well.
When we first started,i didn't know about nemerteans and didn't sterilise anything really,i saw more benefits to having all the micro fauna. Seeing nemerteans appear in a couple of tanks,i changed my approach,thinking they were most likely coming in with the substrate (learmould) we use.
i'm sort of playing a game of caution with things,according to Ed K we can only completely sterilise wood by autoclaving it, which i cant do. So i put the stuff up in the air,which means it does get dried out somewhat,but no its not completely sterile,the other factor is it keeps the stuff away from the native phibs living in my garden,my approach is not really sound scientifically,essentially i'm following what i did as a child,and making some ammendements,to those methods that served me well for a good few yrs relative to darts, my circumstances now and the ever steepening learning curve.

Ade nicely put mate:2thumb: 
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

From a plant perspective, leaf mould is an excellent source of nitrogenous food for the plants.  Very very popular with gardeners as mulch, as unlike bark it adds nitrogen, rather than stripping it. 

I don't use it for the simple reason I don't have a good source for it. 

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> From a plant perspective, leaf mould is an excellent source of nitrogenous food for the plants.  Very very popular with gardeners as mulch, as unlike bark it adds nitrogen, rather than stripping it.
> 
> I don't use it for the simple reason I don't have a good source for it.
> 
> Ade


Get thee to the woods! The one I go to isn't easy walking distance, but it's a relatively short train ride (or car journey, if the boyf is in a good mood!), and it's definitely worth it.


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