# The Logistics of Breeding Feeder Rats



## Coal

Hi all, newbie to this section!

I have been toying with the idea of breeding feeder rats for a while now and if I decide to go ahead with it, I'd like to start in a few months. I've been doing some research and have got a good idea on the set-up, but am having trouble determining some of the more basic things that are important to know, so I thought I'd ask and see what some of the more prevalent opinions are. 


Is it possible to make established breeding groups where the male(s) and females live together permanently? If so, what is the optimum ratio of males to female, is it possible to introduce new individuals to the colony or will they get attacked, and is there any risk of the babies being harmed by the other adults?
If they can't be kept in mixed-sex groups, how many of the same-sex can be kept together at once? Will males get along with other males happily in the absence of females or do they have to be reared together?
Can females be kept together during gestation and nursing to raise offspring communally or should they be separate during these times?
How long a rest should females get between weaning and mating? I've heard everything from four weeks to no time at all.
At first at least I will need to produce 2 rats a week on average. How many females and males will I need to achieve this?
Which substrate is best both in terms of value for money and suitability for the rat? I'm leaning towards shredded newspaper after hearing that wood shavings can cause respiratory and renal problems?
Similarly, what would you recommend as a food source? I've heard that low protein, low fat dry dog food is fine.
Anything else I should think about?

Possible alternatives to rats? I know a lot of people recommend multis as a good feeder rodent, however I don't think that multis will be big enough for my falsie when he's fully grown; he'll be taking fully grown rats then and don't want to be feeding him multiple items at every meal if I can help it as then I'll need more females and everything else. I can't really think of anything other than rats that would be big enough without going up to rabbits, but am willing to listen if anyone's got any ideas.


----------



## Oreni

1.) Is it possible to make established breeding groups where the male(s) and females live together permanently? If so, what is the optimum ratio of males to female, is it possible to introduce new individuals to the colony or will they get attacked, and is there any risk of the babies being harmed by the other adults?

A.) Females will fight over babies and males will sometimes kill babies of other, competing males. A colony also means the rats will CONSTANTLY produce babies - this is stressing on the females' bodies, and since they can have up to 20 babies a litter, may be quite stressing on your pocket...

2.) If they can't be kept in mixed-sex groups, how many of the same-sex can be kept together at once? Will males get along with other males happily in the absence of females or do they have to be reared together?

A.) As many as the cage can hold. Males should (and will) live happily together in groups of any number. My largest male group has been 7 (though I'm a rescuer, not a breeder) and my largest female group has been 17. Hormonal aggression is a problem found in male rats of poor breeding lines and these males should be neutered and not bred from, as it can pass down in lines. Otherwise properly introduced rats should be happy together in groups. 

3.) Can females be kept together during gestation and nursing to raise offspring communally or should they be separate during these times?

A.) Females are commonly kept with their group up until about 4 days before birthing (gestation is 21 days) and then separated into another cage. Females in groups can become "baby jealous" and get into fights over trying to raise one another's young (even if they're not lactating).

4.) How long a rest should females get between weaning and mating? I've heard everything from four weeks to no time at all.

A.) For the welfare of the rats, as long as possible. I'd say minimum 6 weeks personally. A rat that is bred back to back is putting incredible stress on her body; she will lose weight, condition and size. Her litter sizes will decrease as she has less resources to provide with them and her babies are more likely to be small and unhealthy. For good healthy food, you need good healthy rats.

5.) At first at least I will need to produce 2 rats a week on average. How many females and males will I need to achieve this?

A.) A single female rat can have 21 babies every 21 days, technically. Anywhere between 8 and 16 is common. Factoring in the 6 week recommended waiting between weaning and mating, do the maths yourself.  You'll only need one male, as inbreeding is quite normal in rats and most reputable breeders use it as a tool to weed out health issues.

6.) Which substrate is best both in terms of value for money and suitability for the rat? I'm leaning towards shredded newspaper after hearing that wood shavings can cause respiratory and renal problems?

A.) I would highly recommend Finacard. You can order directly from the supplier or from Ratrations.com online. It's a bulk order and a bale lasts me 2 months with 27 rats. It's shredded cardboard and isn't dusty, for optimal respiratory health. Shredded newspaper sometimes contains toxic inks and you're right that wood shavings can cause resp and renal issues.

7.) Similarly, what would you recommend as a food source? I've heard that low protein, low fat dry dog food is fine.

A.) Unless you can find dog food with a high, varied grain content and lower than 15% protein, I wouldn't recommend it. Good food needs, in turn, to be fed good food. I'd recommend the Selective Rat blocks or Reggie Rat for ease (as they're the most suitable commercial rat foods) but would like to suggest that you check out the Shunamite diet (making your own mix) or Ratrations.com.

8.) Anything else I should think about?

A.) Rats have very delicate respiratory systems. No scented items should be kept in the room and definitely no air freshener/etc sprayed around them... if you want healthy noms for your reptile, I'd highly suggest barred cages, climbing facilities and a good diet/substrate.

Hope that helps! I'm not a feeder breeder, I just rescue rats, so some people might see my comment as slightly soft/overly worried about the rats but I think ethical feeder breeding is the best way.


----------



## talltom69

I've been breeding for over a year now with no problems or issues at all.

I do the following:

I keep them in ratios of 1.2 / 1.3 and never take out the females or males as I find they all help out when pups are born.

I use sawdust as most sawdust nowdays has the dust extracted.

I put some kitchen roll in near birthing time as the mothers rip this into small pieces for nesting.

I keep a thick large carboard tube in each tub, that they play with and chew if needs be.

I feed them on a mixture of high protein dog food, seed and pig pellets. 

Each female gives me around 10+ pups a month and I wean them at around 3/4 weeks depending on the sizes I need.


----------



## talltom69

I have around 20 snakes and have not had to buy any rats in over a year, I also breed multis too, which are great, but take slightly longer to get up to size.

In case your feeding demads increase, just hold back a female from the litter and grow her on.


----------



## Matt-kt

talltom69 said:


> I've been breeding for over a year now with no problems or issues at all.
> 
> I do the following:
> 
> I keep them in ratios of 1.2 / 1.3 and never take out the females or males as I find they all help out when pups are born.
> 
> I use sawdust as most sawdust nowdays has the dust extracted.
> 
> I put some kitchen roll in near birthing time as the mothers rip this into small pieces for nesting.
> 
> I keep a thick large carboard tube in each tub, that they play with and chew if needs be.
> 
> I feed them on a mixture of high protein dog food, seed and pig pellets.
> 
> Each female gives me around 10+ pups a month and I wean them at around 3/4 weeks depending on the sizes I need.




Hi, what size tubs are you using for keeping rats in them ratios? Also what which food dog food, seed and pig pellets do you use? Thanks


----------



## Coal

talltom69 said:


> I've been breeding for over a year now with no problems or issues at all.
> 
> I do the following:
> 
> I keep them in ratios of 1.2 / 1.3 and never take out the females or males as I find they all help out when pups are born.
> 
> I use sawdust as most sawdust nowdays has the dust extracted.
> 
> I put some kitchen roll in near birthing time as the mothers rip this into small pieces for nesting.
> 
> I keep a thick large carboard tube in each tub, that they play with and chew if needs be.
> 
> I feed them on a mixture of high protein dog food, seed and pig pellets.
> 
> Each female gives me around 10+ pups a month and I wean them at around 3/4 weeks depending on the sizes I need.


Thanks for that, really helpful


----------



## liam peel

Reading these people do it different.
I myself breed rats, the way I do it is I have a ratio of 1/3 at the most, I feed mine on dog food, I take the female away from males when pregnant as I have had babies die whilst being in with the father.
You need to think head of what is the maximum amount you will need, you do not want to over produce and be left with far to many spare, that and how will you cull the rats?
I use sawdust for substrate, the normal pet shop stuff, throw in a toilet roll tube in each week when cleaned out.
I will also mention that you need to do it in a well ventilated place, I've cleaned out mine before and they still smell pretty bad.
I like to give mine sometimes no rest to a month of rest from breeding/weaning, sometimes may give them a bit more.


----------



## vukic

liam peel said:


> Reading these people do it different.
> I myself breed rats, the way I do it is I have a ratio of 1/3 at the most, I feed mine on dog food, I take the female away from males when pregnant as I have had babies die whilst being in with the father.
> You need to think head of what is the maximum amount you will need, you do not want to over produce and be left with far to many spare, that and how will you cull the rats?
> I use sawdust for substrate, the normal pet shop stuff, throw in a toilet roll tube in each week when cleaned out.
> I will also mention that you need to do it in a well ventilated place, I've cleaned out mine before and they still smell pretty bad.
> I like to give mine sometimes no rest to a month of rest from breeding/weaning, sometimes may give them a bit more.


is thst ratio 1 female to 3 males or 3 females to 1 male?? I usually do the second and have more females.. 

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk


----------



## talltom69

Sorry for the delay, keep forgetting there are so many section on here.

With regards to tubs, I use 50ltr Rubs for the extra height and some 1ft deep by about 3ft long plastic tubs that I got from B&Q.

I'm building a new rack this weekend that will hold 5 tubs.

Food wise, I use generic bird seed that I buy in 25kg sacks for £16.99 from a farm wholesalers, where I also get the small pig pellets for £10 per 10Kg bag.

The dog food I use, is one from Tesco, which is £11 for a 17kg sack.

All of the above last 1-2 months.

I also give the rats, odd bits of food scraps, like bread, fruit etc from time to time.

The ratio is 1 male to 2/3 females.

The cycle I have at the moment is pretty good as I have just had around 80 pinks, I have a tub full off small rats, a tub of weaners and a tub of 3/4 week old rats.


----------



## talltom69

I also breed mine in a large double door cupboard in my hallway, which doesnt smell too bad if I clean out the rats every 2-3 days and mutis once a week.


----------



## liam peel

vukic said:


> is thst ratio 1 female to 3 males or 3 females to 1 male?? I usually do the second and have more females..
> 
> Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk


For me I use 1 male to 3 females, that is a mas though somtimes I'll just have /2 females in with a male at a time.


----------



## talltom69

Once I build my new rack it will more than likely be 1.2 as i find they produce bigger litters in that pairing than 1.3


----------



## kenobi

I'm looking after 3 groups of rats for friends and they are 1:3 groups 
Just split off 60 weaners from the two groups , culled some and kept some others to grow on 

Just checked and shed loads more rat pups :2thumb:


----------



## morris091081

I use bed excel just now which is a cardboard dust extracted animal bedding. Have also used finacard but found the above to work out cheaper. First bedding I used was hemcore but was getting quite a lot of problems with substrate mites so needed to treat all the bedding with ardap before use. Shredded cardboard bedding works out fine if changed regularly think It works out around 18p per 440g portion I use for 50litre rub cages on a diy rub rack


----------



## mitsi

I use shredded paper for bedding, old stuffing out of teddy bears and other bits of cloth for nesting areas, keep mine 2 females to 1 male have four lots of these, always babies on the go, then just cullat different sizes , havent bought any food for them for around 8 months as they get fedleft over dog, cat, people food, they aredoing really well on this.


----------



## baitman

All you that use plastic tubs, how do you stop the rats chewing holes ....

i tried using 50 ltr rubs but within a month had to scrap as they had chewed holes in the corners.....

now use 3 ft fish tanks 1 m and 2 f in each.....


sawdust substrate and a cheap dry dog food.....


----------



## morris091081

I have a rack with 12x 50l rubs they are on shelves on a wooden rack with mesh lids. Never had any issues. Is it the top edge of the rub they are eating or in the actual corners


----------



## baitman

Was the actual corners......but since i been using fish tanks they seem to be doing better.



steve


----------



## talltom69

Some are lucky and some not with RUBS, my friend has over 50 and not a single one chewed, all mine got chewed in the lower corner and I ended taping cheap picture frame glass over the corners and no problems since.


----------



## AmieLouiseThomas

once you wean them can they be kept in the same tub to grow on???


----------



## baitman

They can be yes, but i will be getting an old fibre glass bath and using that as a creche, just put weaners in there till they are ready to be euthinased...


----------



## AmieLouiseThomas

do you think i could grow them on to large-jumbo rats in one rub or will i need to put them seperate or sumin?


----------



## baitman

you will need to seperate at 6 or 7 weeks as they will start breeding at 8 weeks of age.


Apiece of totaly useless info here but did you know that the rat is the only animal that can be suckling young, pregnant and come into season all at same time.....

Iread that if you killed every rat in the world except 1 male and 1 female, in 5 yrs there would be more rats in the world than ppl in the u.k



steve


----------



## technomouse

A rat can't have a true season if it's pregnant. They do sometimes have what appear to be seasons, but that's more habit than anything else. But yes, they come straight into season as soon as they give birth, so can get pregnant immediately post partum.


----------



## ZuluAmel

They can also swim for 72 hours straight.... and survive a fall of 50 foot....
Got this info from my smoking papers. Ha


----------



## Prem Morph

the information given here is quite good rubs work well but old lab style cages work better and they do become available so keep your eyes open in the equipment section of the classifieds.

The pig food is generally sow rolls (these are made for lactating sows and have worked very well for me for 15 years) I also buy whole wheat again from my local farming supplies store as wheat germ is actually a fertility booster in rodents. But dog food is effective use one for sporting/active dogs it will have a higher protein level. hamster type mix is ok but allows the rat to cherry pick what it eats and doesn't necessarily mean a balanced diet but its good as a supplement. 1.2 is a good colony size I find you get bigger litters and also you will have more room for the youngsters to grow before you wean them 

at weaning separate the sexes males are the best for growing on as they grow faster than females hold back some females for future breeders and cull the rest with CO2 at weaner and small rat size 

I don't like the way that the people selling frozen food these days label a weaner a rat that is 35-55g in fact I have never weaned a rat at under 70g

wait until new females are over 12 weeks old before you introduce a male give them time to mature first litters born will be when they are about 16 weeks old and they will breed until they are about 9 months old then they will drop off and litters will get smaller males also become lazy with age so I change them over about half way through the females breeding life. 

for my sins I used to maintain 2500 female rats now just a couple of racks

when it comes to culling an easy method is to use a clear large heavy duty plastic bag and co2 gas you can get this from your local welding supplies company I get small bottles from my local farm supplies store they cost about £10 a go they are for small mig welders I think the regulator cost about £30 but that is a one off cost and this allows you to get the co2 out of the bottle and into the bag. Place a double handful of clean bedding in the bag add about 10 rats squeeze out the air and then flood the bag with co2 twist the top around to seal the bag I use a metal clamp to hold the twist and seal the bag because the bag is clear you will see the rats quickly pass out leave them for approx 3-4 mins to make sure they are dead I have had ones come round if not left in for long enough which horrified me and made a bad job harder. the bedding does 2 things absorbs any urine and stops sharp claws damaging the bag, I lie the rats out when dead in a clip top resealable freezer bag then lie them on the cold concrete floor to cool them before putting them in the freezer. I hope this helps


----------



## jackiee

I got a bottle of co2 from my local pub landlord put a piece of hosepipe on the nozzle and it works a treat for culling them.


----------



## bloominators

i was looking into rat breeding for the far future if i ever intend to, and was wondering if i was able to do it by having a breeder rack with 5 tubs, one with two males, two with two females each then the other two to seperate the weiners all males in one and al females in another. put one male into each female for a week or 2 then put them back together for the females to give birth and raise their young. does this sound okay???



also with the two with the weined rats, if i wean rats then breed them again while there is still weiner rats left in the boxes, am i okay to put the new weiners with the old weiners or will the size difference affect this?


----------



## bloominators

also does anyone know where i can get these in UK Tank Connector - Reptile Basics Inc


----------



## ZOO CENTRE

Prem Morph said:


> the information given here is quite good rubs work well but old lab style cages work better and they do become available so keep your eyes open in the equipment section of the classifieds.
> 
> The pig food is generally sow rolls (these are made for lactating sows and have worked very well for me for 15 years) I also buy whole wheat again from my local farming supplies store as wheat germ is actually a fertility booster in rodents. But dog food is effective use one for sporting/active dogs it will have a higher protein level. hamster type mix is ok but allows the rat to cherry pick what it eats and doesn't necessarily mean a balanced diet but its good as a supplement. 1.2 is a good colony size I find you get bigger litters and also you will have more room for the youngsters to grow before you wean them
> 
> at weaning separate the sexes males are the best for growing on as they grow faster than females hold back some females for future breeders and cull the rest with CO2 at weaner and small rat size
> 
> I don't like the way that the people selling frozen food these days label a weaner a rat that is 35-55g in fact I have never weaned a rat at under 70g
> 
> wait until new females are over 12 weeks old before you introduce a male give them time to mature first litters born will be when they are about 16 weeks old and they will breed until they are about 9 months old then they will drop off and litters will get smaller males also become lazy with age so I change them over about half way through the females breeding life.
> 
> for my sins I used to maintain 2500 female rats now just a couple of racks
> 
> when it comes to culling an easy method is to use a clear large heavy duty plastic bag and co2 gas you can get this from your local welding supplies company I get small bottles from my local farm supplies store they cost about £10 a go they are for small mig welders I think the regulator cost about £30 but that is a one off cost and this allows you to get the co2 out of the bottle and into the bag. Place a double handful of clean bedding in the bag add about 10 rats squeeze out the air and then flood the bag with co2 twist the top around to seal the bag I use a metal clamp to hold the twist and seal the bag because the bag is clear you will see the rats quickly pass out leave them for approx 3-4 mins to make sure they are dead I have had ones come round if not left in for long enough which horrified me and made a bad job harder. the bedding does 2 things absorbs any urine and stops sharp claws damaging the bag, I lie the rats out when dead in a clip top resealable freezer bag then lie them on the cold concrete floor to cool them before putting them in the freezer. I hope this helps


If I understand well - you keep 2500 females + 1250 males,yes?

How many babies and how often do you have from one female please?


----------

