# Venomoids?



## lawrence (Jun 11, 2008)

hi, 

i know i will get flamed for this :whistling2: but whats the deal with venomoids? do you still need a DWA and what are the laws about importing them etc... does anyone keep any?


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

Yes you should still need dwa. By law, you need paperwork for proven venomoid(or not), cities if needed, receipt of purchase, papers to say that the animal you are carrying is captive bred (which is the receipt)and is not carrying parasites/viruses or such that would be gotten in the wild I'm guessing. Also, a clear plastic sealed container with adequate ventilation inside of a polybox with heat packs to allow viewing by officials. Oh yeah, and don't forget your tools.

I know of no one with venomoids. The only way I would take a venomoid personally is if someone just wanted to rehome it without charge.

But no mate ya won't get flamed for asking. I think there's been enough discussion on ethics, rights and cruelty in this section, quite a lot of areas have been covered in threads.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

WRONG...You need a DWA license. And CITES papers if it is covered.

If you are importing from EU, by ferry then you will need a recipt showing that it is CB and your DWA with you (dont need the DWA At the port it just will make life easier.) 

You will need to be compatant handling it also since they may request that it be removed from the containers.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Piraya1 said:


> I know of no one with venomoids. The only way I would take a venomoid personally is if someone just wanted to rehome it without charge.


Theres a few people here with venemoids but all rehomed i believe. The reason you need DWA papers is although they themselves lack venom, their children will be fully tanked with fangs and venom.


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## lawrence (Jun 11, 2008)

ah bummer, i don't think i would be able to get a DWA , anyway around that if you can prove your not breeding


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

lawrence said:


> ah bummer, i don't think i would be able to get a DWA , anyway around that if you can prove your not breeding


Doesn't matter you still need a DWA. Venemoids can still be dangerous, all it takes is for a little bit of fang to be left (if they still have venom glands) and your in for a trip to the hospital and possibly the afterlife.


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## lawrence (Jun 11, 2008)

sorry one more thing how does a DWA work do you have to have one for the type of animal you want e.g. snakes or even as far as for example a black mamba (and this would disallow green mambas)? or do you simply get a DWA and that allows you to keep any animal? 

:lol2: sorry if this is unclear


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Your licese will aloww species and quanity in 99% of cases. 

Ie 

1 bitis gaboinca. (gaboon viper)

Some authorities will also restrict the gender of the animals too.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

lawrence said:


> sorry one more thing how does a DWA work do you have to have one for the type of animal you want e.g. snakes or even as far as for example a black mamba (and this would disallow green mambas)? or do you simply get a DWA and that allows you to keep any animal?
> 
> :lol2: sorry if this is unclear


One license covers them all, however some require that you tell the council every time you get a new animal.


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## lawrence (Jun 11, 2008)

Sorry this has interested me now, whats stopping someone with a DWA and they keep say a cobra... going out and buying a wolf or something? i guess the fact they have a dwa proves there not stupid but it could happen

also i am 18 so is there even a chance i could get one?


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

One licese does cover all animals although you will have to ask the authority (council) to add other species. And it only allows the keeping of specified animals. If you have somthing that isnt on your lisence your even more screwed in many cases than if you didnt have a DWAL at all since the council know that you know the rules properly etc.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Dwa stops them.. 

It will say that they are allowed say naja naja (specticled cobra) but only that 
unless they get other things added which can require a vets inspection. 

and you can get one depending on the local authority lotto


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## lawrence (Jun 11, 2008)

ah great i will do some research i'm in bath anyone know what they are like about it round here? 

also i have a FWC so i take it i have SOME experiance that would help?


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## MadMike (Jul 5, 2008)

lawrence said:


> ah great i will do some research i'm in bath anyone know what they are like about it round here?
> 
> also i have a FWC so i take it i have SOME experiance that would help?


Lawrence, you sound like a :censor: :lol2:

He has also got me wanting a Venomoid now: victory:


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## lil05 (Jul 22, 2008)

FWC :flrt:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

the procedure isnt even legal here anyway, so they would have to be imports.


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## lawrence (Jun 11, 2008)

SiUK said:


> the procedure isnt even legal here anyway, so they would have to be imports.


 Yeah i know  i was planning getting them from the US


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> Doesn't matter you still need a DWA. Venemoids can still be dangerous, all it takes is for a little bit of fang to be left (if they still have venom glands) and your in for a trip to the hospital and possibly the afterlife.


Quick one......

They don't ever remove fangs, that is only in places like india and that by local people to do some snake shows.

A medical venomoid has it's venom producing glands removed, quite often the space is then filled with silicone to help prevent the glands from growing back and to put the head shape back to normal.

Mike

P.S. Please all people reading this think more than once of keeping venomous, I've just had a VERY, VERY, VERY unsettling phone call about a legal keeper. Put it this way, I would rather my iguanas looked after vipers than this person. A phone call to the local council is on its way, then see what can be done about removing his license.

Most people should never ever keep venomous, there is plenty of other species that are interesting to keep. The greater majority of people only want it so they can boast and feel superior. There are some sensible keepers that are fascinated by them and have the right attitude, most however deep down are after it for the kudos.


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## lawrence (Jun 11, 2008)

masticophis said:


> Quick one......
> 
> They don't ever remove fangs, that is only in places like india and that by local people to do some snake shows.
> 
> ...


im not wanting one for kudos! for a start i know for a fact i wouldn't get any


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

masticophis said:


> P.S. Please all people reading this think more than once of keeping venomous, I've just had a VERY, VERY, VERY unsettling phone call about a legal keeper. Put it this way, I would rather my iguanas looked after vipers than this person. A phone call to the local council is on its way, then see what can be done about removing his license.


intriguing, member here?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Lucifus said:


> Theres a few people here with venemoids but all rehomed i believe. The reason you need DWA papers is although they themselves lack venom, their children will be fully tanked with fangs and venom.


Requiring a DWA for venomids has nothing whatsoever to do with any resulting offspring being functioning hots. It is simply because the DWA makes no distinction between venomoid and "live" - the licence os required for the SPECIES, so it is neither here nor there if they are venomoid.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

I can only echo what masticophis has said (Si - no it's not a member on here), most people shouldn't even consider keeping venomous, venomoid or not!


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> I can only echo what masticophis has said (Si - no it's not a member on here), most people shouldn't even consider keeping venomous, venomoid or not!


Most people. But reptile keepers are a minority and those who WANT to keep DWA's and can afford it are an even smaller minority so theres not really a problem.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

masticophis said:


> P.S. Please all people reading this think more than once of keeping venomous, I've just had a VERY, VERY, VERY unsettling phone call about a legal keeper. Put it this way, I would rather my iguanas looked after vipers than this person. A phone call to the local council is on its way, then see what can be done about removing his license.
> 
> Most people should never ever keep venomous, there is plenty of other species that are interesting to keep. The greater majority of people only want it so they can boast and feel superior. There are some sensible keepers that are fascinated by them and have the right attitude, most however deep down are after it for the kudos.


Evidence that bit in red if you please. Could you not apply the same maxim to owners of big constrictors? How many photos are going about of owners with retics, anacondas, Burms etc draped around their necks? Are they not "after the kudos" of owning a huge snake? Maybe some are, but I would defy anyone to point them out purely from a picture.

What supports your statement that "most however deep down are after it for the kudos" Do you actually know this owner that you are going to phone the council about? Have you seen his/her collection and maintenance practices and on what set of standards are you basing your decision that it is wrong? Purely on the basis of a third party statement?

Just because (IMO)you do not feel capable of dealing with venomous snakes, what right do you have to assume that no-one else should?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

glidergirl said:


> I can only echo what masticophis has said (Si - no it's not a member on here), most people shouldn't even consider keeping venomous, venomoid or not!


 
Hang on, double standards or what? If you don't agree with "most" people keeping hots, why were you in Houten buying Red Spitting Cobras and Indian Cobras???


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## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> Evidence that bit in red if you please. Could you not apply the same maxim to owners of big constrictors? How many photos are going about of owners with retics, anacondas, Burms etc draped around their necks? Are they not "after the kudos" of owning a huge snake? Maybe some are, but I would defy anyone to point them out purely from a picture.
> 
> What supports your statement that "most however deep down are after it for the kudos" Do you actually know this owner that you are going to phone the council about? Have you seen his/her collection and maintenance practices and on what set of standards are you basing your decision that it is wrong? Purely on the basis of a third party statement?
> 
> Just because (IMO)you do not feel capable of dealing with venomous snakes, what right do you have to assume that no-one else should?


Ummmm well as far as the kudos of keeping big snakes.... yes that is also true, a lot do have it to show off. By no means is it everyone but certainly a good few come into my friends shop for a big snake because it gets big and impressive, then when the bad sides are pointed out they have second thoughts. Too many big snakes have been in rescue centers because of people not being able to cope when they outgrow their owners.
I certainly wouldn't point anyone out from a picture as it's not my decision to make. If someone wants to keep big snakes or hots then that is up to them.... but as either of these are potential killers and an accident could affect the rest of us keepers of any reptiles, then yes I do believe I have the right to speak my mind.

Who are you to assume that I don't feel capable of keeping venomous ????? What gives you the right to assume that, i don't think for me the risks are worth it compared to the enjoyment of keeping other things, but that doesn't mean you can take over my thinking for me!

I am very worried about the inexperienced keepers who have had a corn or royal, have spare cash and can blag their council. It is a very real possibility that people with no idea how to deal with hots could get hold of them legally.

And to your accusations of basing my phoning the council on my opinion. Well I am not one to judge normally, I may have an opinion but not one I would force on another. This case however is very worrying, if it is correct (based on their info given to me I hasten to add), then they have no idea how to deal with a venomous snake, or what they can do, from the inference I got i would doubt the existence of bite protocols, secure viv's, handling skills, husbandry skills.

Ok if YOU think that letting an highly inexperienced keeper (in snakes in general, not just venomous), keep a venomous snake with no training, experience, hot protocols and the like. If you think this is absolutely fine then you can have his death on your concience and the death of the reptile hobby as well. Personally I would rather try to save him from himself. 
I could well be wrong, but I am not willing to take that risk. If they can show that I inferred completely the wrong ideas from the call then that is fine, but if I am right then I would be a party to their death if i didn't try to find out and let someone more experienced than me assess the risk.
Next you will be telling me that it is right to let toddlers handle venomous snakes !

I'm sorry but I will continue to question why people want to keep hots, if I question and point out the bad things then a lot of people will think twice. I'm not saying that certain people can't keep them, but that it could well be a life changing decision and that they need to think long and hard on it. Most people that get a snake then think at some point they will want to keep venomous, I personally think in most cases they would be much better off with non venomous once they realize the risks and skills needed compared to the fun out of keeper non lethal stuff. Some people are going to be good keepers and it is right for them, but it should never be an easy decision to make. It's all too easy in some area's to legally keep venomous, with no experience, much better to give people the idea that it is a big decision and to get as much experience as possible before taking that final step.

Mike


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

stuartdouglas said:


> Hang on, double standards or what? If you don't agree with "most" people keeping hots, why were you in Houten buying Red Spitting Cobras and Indian Cobras???


Stuart - the person in question returned a corn to us because it was too aggressive only two months ago! And all of a sudden he turns up with a rattlesnake? Do YOU think he sounds capable of keeping venomous? There's alot more to this story that I wouldn't DARE put on the forum, so before you go accusing of double standards make sure you're aware of the facts first! We are not looking to stop all keepers from keeping venomous - heck no!!! But this person really isn't capable of keeping a corn snake never mind the rattlesnake he now claims to have - he also wants to 'step up' a level!!!! 

There are alot of people popping up that really shouldn't be considering venomous snakes at 'that' stage in their experience, I did say MOST people - not ALL. There are some very good keepers I'm not denying that but there are a lot more people that shouldn't consider it. It's not double standards at all, it's a responsible attitude to a dangerous 'hobby'.


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

Im not taking any sides or getting involved but I can understand where Marie is coming from.

Serious venomous keepers are very protective over the hobby, they live and breathe the hobby and most have always had a keen interest, im not so sure that venomous keeping is a step up from the norm (*or a corn*)but more *"its always been in your system"*

*Id hate to think some guy or gal loses us our passion just because they fancied a change.*

*As I said im not taking sides or diving deep into this subject but I understand why some people respond the way they do.*

*cheers*

*Dave*


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

It's not an arguement from where I'm standing, I'm pretty sure if Stuart received the same call masticophis did on Sat he'd be saying the same thing! 

Lets just say the rattlesnake WAS a step up from a corn in this case! And we know that to be 100% true and correct! And not only that he couldn't cope with the corn!! Nor could he cope with the other corn, or the hatchling corn!! - And NO we did not sell him any of said corns, we wouldn't sell him a cricket!!


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

If what is being said is correct

Its pretty frightening


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

masticophis said:


> I am very worried about the inexperienced keepers who have had a corn or royal, have spare cash and can blag their council. It is a very real possibility that people with no idea how to deal with hots could get hold of them legally.
> 
> Next you will be telling me that it is right to let toddlers handle venomous snakes !
> 
> ...


A few of these point are closely related so I'll chip in with my opinion which probably isnt worth anything anyway.

Please feel free to name and shame the Councils who you feel are "easily giving away DWAL's and remember the inspecting vet is I believe in most instances the main factor for granting a DWAL" if this leaves you feeling uncomfortable please feel free to pm them to me.

As for experience that's a real difficult one as venomous reptiles dont come in training variety (I'm sure someone else put it better).

Mentoring is a sketchy and frankly bizarre idea and possibly finacialy risky idea.....

Anyway I'm rambling as I've had too many beers and need to go play with my hots!

JOKING!!!!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

He waits for the reply from the no sense of humour lot!!!!!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> He waits for the reply from the no sense of humour lot!!!!!


 
you what, playing with venomous snakes after beer, shouldnt joke about these things..........................:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2::lol2:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

glidergirl said:


> Stuart - the person in question returned a corn to us because it was too aggressive only two months ago! And all of a sudden he turns up with a rattlesnake? Do YOU think he sounds capable of keeping venomous? There's alot more to this story that I wouldn't DARE put on the forum, so before you go accusing of double standards make sure you're aware of the facts first! We are not looking to stop all keepers from keeping venomous - heck no!!! But this person really isn't capable of keeping a corn snake never mind the rattlesnake he now claims to have - he also wants to 'step up' a level!!!!
> 
> There are alot of people popping up that really shouldn't be considering venomous snakes at 'that' stage in their experience, I did say MOST people - not ALL. There are some very good keepers I'm not denying that but there are a lot more people that shouldn't consider it. It's not double standards at all, it's a responsible attitude to a dangerous 'hobby'.


Point taken, the issue really needs to be with the inspecting vets and council which issued a license to this individual. No offence was meant and, I hope, none taken.

Has anyone actually seen this rattler or is there the possibility it's just so much pub bullsh*t?


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