# Dendrobates tinctorius 'Oyapok' questions



## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

are these ok in a group ... i have 5 little baby ones and was wondering about having a nice communal set-up ... however i have read you can and cant keep them together ... anyone else give their views ...

btw i will be putting them in a 5 by 2 vivarium  cheers guys


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I can`t see why you can`t keep them together for a while yet.
But how they`ll be once they mature i`ve no idea.
Keeping them in a tank so big might be okay as they`ll have space to get away from each other.
So it might be a bit of a gamble.
I`m sure theres someone though who will have more of an idea about if it is safe to do.

Mike


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

frogman955 said:


> I can`t see why you can`t keep them together for a while yet.
> But how they`ll be once they mature i`ve no idea.
> Keeping them in a tank so big might be okay as they`ll have space to get away from each other.
> So it might be a bit of a gamble.
> ...


I have kept a group of five successfully together for two years in an Exoterra 90cmx60cmx45cm. four of the five are completely inseperable and provide hours of endless fascination in my conservatory office at home.


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Gorgeus little frogs, we've got a gorgeus group together at the shop at the moment!! In a tank of that size i dont see it being a problem. The best thing to do is just monitor them and keeo you're eyes open for any signs of aggression or territorial disputes.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Its not advised, but it has been done. With a 5x2 I'd say try it but keep an eye out for bullying.

IMO.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

The normal problem we are advised about with tincs is female agression,,plenty of line of site breakers in your big ol tank and observation and you might well be good,i have not done this so can't really go further i do know folks whom have reared a group together and had no problems,as always its down to those girls and whether they want to be nice
Stu


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## del_044 (Jan 29, 2007)

what the rule of thumb when keeping groups of tincs?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

del_044 said:


> what the rule of thumb when keeping groups of tincs?


Preferably, don't. If you do, keep it male heavy, provide lots of space and hiding places and ideally no water area, the females like to crush their opposition with a swift drowning via standing on the head.


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Preferably, don't. If you do, keep it male heavy, provide lots of space and hiding places and ideally no water area, the females like to crush their opposition with a swift drowning via standing on the head.


What's the biggest viv you have have tried this with Paul? I like Malawi Cichlids a lot; they are a a nightmare in small tanks, and have gained a reputation as thugs in the fishkeeping world, but give them some space and suddenly its a whole different set of things going on. A 6 x 2 x2 tank with a huge pile of rocks/sight breaks/fry retreats, can see harmony between Malawi rock and sand dwellers, species from other lakes, and even species from rivers.

Just learning about darts so have to prod you for observations   

Chris


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> What's the biggest viv you have have tried this with Paul? I like Malawi Cichlids a lot; they are a a nightmare in small tanks, and have gained a reputation as thugs in the fishkeeping world, but give them some space and suddenly its a whole different set of things going on. A 6 x 2 x2 tank with a huge pile of rocks/sight breaks/fry retreats, can see harmony between Malawi rock and sand dwellers, species from other lakes, and even species from rivers.
> 
> Just learning about darts so have to prod you for observations
> 
> Chris


I've never tried a Tinc group, I'm sticking with my pair!

With Malawis and other African chichlids the aggression is related to territory, with female tincs it's not just about territory but winning all the males. Other females = competition. People have kept tinc groups, but with a group of 5 the ideal would be one female, 2 at the very most. I just like to be extra cautious.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Females will destroy the eggs of other females as well, males sometimes will destroy other male's eggs as well, hence the preference for pairs for breeding purposes.

Before anybody asks, no, I don't keep tincs in groups either, plenty have folks have tried though and reported reduced breeding at best, loss of frogs at worst. In fact, it's recorded that tincs were considered difficult during the early days of the hobby, all thanks to people trying to keep too many together.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Females will destroy the eggs of other females as well, males sometimes will destroy other male's eggs as well, hence the preference for pairs for breeding purposes.
> 
> Before anybody asks, no, I don't keep tincs in groups either, plenty have folks have tried though and reported reduced breeding at best, loss of frogs at worst. In fact, it's recorded that tincs were considered difficult during the early days of the hobby, all thanks to people trying to keep too many together.
> 
> Ade


 See, this is an example of why this site is so useful!


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

It all depends on what you are after from the group.

I have personally kept groups of 6 azureus and 5 oyapok (separate vivs) that have been fine together given enough decor and laying spaces, but other people have reported problems with trios so I guess it depends on the frogs.

With a viv that size you have plenty of opportunity to experiment with decor, but as mentioned earlier keep an eye out for bullying behaviour.


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Im agreeing with 955i- but also add, dont always go by whats care sheets / internerd sites say etc.

I kept a group of 3:2 Patricas together, and in another viv, a 2:1:2 of Oyapoks, and another with 2:2 azzies.

I dont know viv size or sex ratio, but there is a very well known breeder (more on DW than here), who has about 10 azzies together in a big viv- again breeding.

All fine. No fighting, egg eating, bullying etc. I belive the secret is growing them on together.

5x2 is a great size, loads of visual boundries can be built etc etc.


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## boerboel_1984 (Mar 17, 2008)

Mine seem ok so far but i am not sure of their ages. I was told they are likely 2 males and 1 female.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

chrism said:


> Im agreeing with 955i- but also add, dont always go by whats care sheets / internerd sites say etc.
> 
> I kept a group of 3:2 Patricas together, and in another viv, a 2:1:2 of Oyapoks, and another with 2:2 azzies.
> 
> ...


couldn't disagree more i kept a group of 4male tinc patrica together from froglets to adulthood no problems for a year(exactly 1 year to the day coincidentally). one of the tincs quickly started to lose weight (i separated instantly)despite my efforts i lost the lil fella and from what iv been told the most likely cause was bullying/out competing for food,despite more than adequate feeding/dusting.The rest are all still fat and healthy.

it has nothing to do with viv size or sex ratio its simply a matter of time and luck. until all the frogs die of natural causes there is no way to come to the conclusion you have.6 weeks ago id have probably read this thread and agreed with you telling every body my success story but unfortunately success stories are often the exception not the rule.

There is a good reason most people say tincs are best kept in pairs both methods have been tried and tested with pairs working alot lot better than groups.Even male high groups that are usually considered safe didnt work for me.


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Few assumptions made on my 'care' there Sam.

The Patricias actually lived with me for about 6yrs, and then sold to 2 friends as 2 groups... You post reads like I kept them for a few weeks so must be ok.

Viv size arguement was a bit weightless. You put viv size doesnt matter, so ten tincs in a 30exo will act the same as ten tincs in a green house?!

But hell, what do I know, you use an vertical exos for your darts frog which is know to be the best vivs with regards to humidity and great for terrestrial frogs so i'll bow out.


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## del_044 (Jan 29, 2007)

seems like luck needs to be on your side, bit gutted as i wanted to keep 4 oyapoks together.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Not entirely luck del. Chris actually makes a point that is VERY true, stocking DENSITY is what is important, rather than numbers. You stand a better chance of it working out in a 5 foot by 2 foot tank than you would with the same number in say a 3 foot by 2 foot one. If it was just numbers, then they would have trouble breeding in the wild too, there been 1000s living next to each other (number is just a rough guess, NOT a hard fact).

The point I was trying to make is that the experience of much more experienced keepers has led to the belief that the simplest and most trouble free and effective (for breeding purposes) way to keep tincs is in sexed pairs. However even putting a male and female together they might not get on. It's just that the pairs method seems to work better more often.

MOST people entering the hobby and wanting to keep groups though, well they have a max of a 3 foot tank, which is far less likely to work out. It's like pums, most experienced hobbyists keep either pairs in small vivs or trios in slightly larger ones (female heavy trios). However a small number of hobbyists keep VERY large groups in HUGE vivariums and it works just as well. Move that large group into say a normal 40x40x60 though and you would have warfare on your hands. You also have to remember that frogs are like any other animal, each is unique and each may react differently to an identical situation.

Ade


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

chrism said:


> Few assumptions made on my 'care' there Sam.
> 
> The Patricias actually lived with me for about 6yrs, and then sold to 2 friends as 2 groups... You post reads like I kept them for a few weeks so must be ok.
> 
> ...


dude sorry if you read it that way you have completely misunderstood.The main point i was contending was that raising them together could solve the issue.no idea why you took offence the way you did though, as at no point do I mention the time you have kept the frogs or mention your husbandry.I simply said something can always go wrong .That aside there was no need to be a massive jerk about it

Let me try and re word it.... There is always risk in keeping a group(agreed?) be that in a 2ft viv or a 10ft viv it is 100% impossible to completely remove the risk(agreed?)nor is it possible to claim success until all members have died naturally.The point im trying to make is it can always go wrong at any time regardless of steps taken.

as for your comments was there really any need to act 5 and make things personal and off topic?you accuse me of making assumptions before proceeding to do exactly the same in a particularly viscous manor.i like exo vivs i intentional use them and i cant say I have had any issues with humidity.As for it being a vert it was originally temporary however they always used the height just as often perhaps more so than the viv floor especially as froglets.Personally I think its ridiculous that people think the difference between terrestrial and arboreal viv can be determined by 15cm of length or height :whistling2:

also is telling a begginer to ignore advice given in care sheets a particularly good idea? care sheets are usually a very very good resource offering the best proven results for keeping a given species.In the most risk free way


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Now now, lets play nicely people!!

Chris has a good point with regards to caresheets, these can be written by anyone and may not necessarily contain good info.

In fact, do care sheets really have a place anymore when you can talk directly to people who have kept the target species on forums such as this (apart from when buying without knowledge of the resources available, although even then should you buy without doing your research first?)?

Degenerating into arguments often sends threads flying off into a different direction and the required information gets lost amidst the toys coming out of the prams, seen it on here a thousand times.

If the OP wants to know about dartfrogs in particular then I would suggest not only asking on here but also getting over to Dendroworld which is a dedicated forum for dartfrogs (shameless plug :2thumb


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

955i said:


> Now now, lets play nicely people!!
> 
> Chris has a good point with regards to caresheets, these can be written by anyone and may not necessarily contain good info.
> 
> ...


There are just as many people posting dodgy information on forums as there are posting dodgy care sheets bud. It's more a matter of learning to pick out the decent ones over the bad ones. Oh and just because a few people don't agree with what a care sheet might say does not mean it's wrong, it just means that they have in many cases been lucky (or unlucky as the case maybe). 

Oh and just to politely point out, this thread hadn't gone off at a tangeant until you decided to use it to debate whether care sheets still have a place. Nicely done. lmao

Ade


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I would be a bit worried about putting young in a five foot vivarium.Over time I have found that young do better in smaller vivaria that you increase in size as they grow.Its easier for them to find the food.
But that would bring you back to your original question...


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> Oh and just to politely point out, this thread hadn't gone off at a tangeant until you decided to use it to debate whether care sheets still have a place. Nicely done. lmao
> 
> Ade


Hmm, didn't say that care sheets don't have a place. In fact I said that they were useful to people who didn't know about places like this.

As I also said, you can't beat getting info off people who have successfully kept the species you are enquiring about.

Also I directed the OP to a site where excellent info on darts is available.

When it comes to dartfrogs, I may be able to be of some use. Ask around :whistling2:

Off on another tangent, Chris are you going to be able to make the 11th for the frog meet?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

No need to get so angry and defensive there bud, was just pointing out that was you taking the thread off in a strange direction. 

As to you saying you weren't debating whether care sheets still have a place, I got this impression from:-

"In fact, *do care sheets really have a place anymore* when you can talk directly to people who have kept the target species on forums such as this"

Your own words bud, not mine.

Going back to the original question, as I've already said, I chose to follow those with a lot more experience who say that they do better in sexed pairs. There are plenty of other nice frogs to chose from if you want groups, that don't come with any of the downsides or risks of keeping groups of tinctorius.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> No need to get so angry and defensive there bud, was just pointing out that was you taking the thread off in a strange direction.
> 
> As to you saying you weren't debating whether care sheets still have a place, I got this impression from:-
> 
> ...


Again, not angry nor defensive, was merely asking a question.

As to my experience with darts, as I said ask around :whistling2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I wasn't asking about your experience with darts though... lol

Ade


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> I wasn't asking about your experience with darts though... lol
> 
> Ade


Ade, if you have nothing of value to add (and it seems you don't) then I suggest trolling other threads. 18+ must be missing you.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

955i said:


> Ade, if you have nothing of value to add (and it seems you don't) then I suggest trolling other threads. 18+ must be missing you.


Trolling? Are you serious? Last I looked I was trying to help the op, rather than beating my chest, and had posted plenty of value. If you aren't happy with other people trying to help where they don't agree with your opinion, then I truly am sorry, but calling me a troll for actually been friendly with you, but pointing out you were contradicting yourself, that my friend is most definitely posting angry. If you don't want folks to debate stuff with you, don't start a debate.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

955i said:


> Ade, if you have nothing of value to add (and it seems you don't) then I suggest trolling other threads. 18+ must be missing you.


Um, have you actually spent any time at all on the 'Phibs section? Ade can be opinionated, but he's a regular here, and he really knows his stuff. if he disagrees, it's because he does, not to win any prizes.



Wolfenrook said:


> Trolling? Are you serious? Last I looked I was trying to help the op, rather than beating my chest, and had posted plenty of value. If you aren't happy with other people trying to help where they don't agree with your opinion, then I truly am sorry, but calling me a troll for actually been friendly with you, but pointing out you were contradicting yourself, that my friend is most definitely posting angry. If you don't want folks to debate stuff with you, don't start a debate.
> Ade


Pretty much agree.


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Not getting back into arguements, or taking sides etc, but just with a comment above re time spent in section- wether he posts lots or not, 955i has years of experience- above many and most on this forum, keeping species many will only see in photos etc.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

chrism said:


> Not getting back into arguements, or taking sides etc, but just with a comment above re time spent in section- wether he posts lots or not, 955i has years of experience- above many and most on this forum, keeping species many will only see in photos etc.


I wouldn't argue with that, 'cos I don't know him- he may well have a lot of experience, but his comment was offensive.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Ron Magpie said:


> Um, have you actually spent any time at all on the 'Phibs section? Ade can be opinionated, but he's a regular here, and he really knows his stuff. if he disagrees, it's because he does, not to win any prizes.


To be fair, I couldn't give a monkey's

He may be a regular, but I am a specialist.

Posting a lot on here doesn't make you an expert, it makes you someone with a lot of time on your hands :mf_dribble:

PS. Thanks for the back up Chris


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Actaully, you are an arrogant and rude elitist is what you are.

For one, I wasn't even arguing that it was not possible to keep tincs in groups, in fact if you take the time to read somebodies opinion but your own you will see I actually AGREED that it's population DENSITY that probably matters most. I wasn't even arguing with you about how many tincs you can keep together.

I NEVER claimed to have more experience than anybody else, or questioned how much experience you have. In fact I pointed this out just before you called me a troll. Heck, I wasn't even getting involved in the argument between Sam and ChrisM (had I have gotten involved, I would have actually backed ChrisM, Sam was well out of order).

What I DID do was point out that you were complaining about arguments taking threads off topic, whilst actually been the one taking the thread off topic. You went on to argue that you HADN'T challenged that care sheets have a role to play these days, and I went on to point out, using your own words, that this is exactly what you did.

The things I challenged you on have NOTHING to do with how much experience anybody may ore may not have, but rather the fact that you are arguing purely for the sake of arguing, and to be blunt acting like a total idiot.

I would ask that anybody else considering backing me up here, although I appreciate it, please don't. This guy is just looking for an argument, and it's not helping the OP or the forum to continue it.

My appologies to the OP, but I wont be back on this thread. Good luck with whatever you chose to do.

Regards

Ade


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

I still don't get how I offended Chris or was "out of order" all I said was that there will always be risk when keeping groups:whistling2: when Did the phib section get so angry and militant ?


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