# 2017



## ratboy

Given the import news announced on this forum today ....

and the diseases reported to be affecting wild species ....

and given the European Protected Species list ....


Do you believe that the hobby of reptile or amphibian keeping will still be around in the UK in ten years time ? and why do you believe what you believe ?


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## shiva&kaa123

I can't stand the though of it not! Had to vote yes!
Ben


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## SiUK

maybe im naive but I still see it being around, without a doubt it will be more restricted but I cant see it being out right banned.


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## hermanlover

sorry, but i will build a secret den for mine if it gets banned, wilkl build an underground bunker 4000m down. :lol2:

on a more serious note, i am worried, couldnt stand the thought of it not being around


lee

p.s voted no, as i have my doubts about it


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Vod*

I do, 

I see it being gone.

New legislations are coming in hard and fast, unless we start to seriously battle now and make them believe we care, instead of allowing our own appathy to be used as bullets from their guns to knock us down - it will be over.

R
PKL


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## Fixx

ratboy said:


> Given the import news announced on this forum today ....


What important news?


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## shiva&kaa123

Fixx said:


> What important news?


I missed this too..
Ben


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## TSKA Rory Matier

There is a very good chance that both non EU w/c and c/b reptiles will be banned from entering Europe.

It is not scaremongering, it is hard core facts. The same committee that worked on the wild bird ban are now working on the reptile ban. 

See The Walls keep tumbling down thread

Rory


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## SuperTed

does this mean we will have to make reptile keeping "underground" ?? :no1:


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*That could*

............be a truth statement there alone Superted.

But for how long would it remain underground if keepers are then further alienated by being turned into 'refugees of species?'

R


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## ratboy

Fixx said:


> What important news?


import news....

They want to ban the import of Captive bred animals into the EU. See the thread here : http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/63493-walls-keep-tumbling-down.html


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## Fixx

ratboy said:


> import news....
> 
> They want to ban the import of Captive bred animals into the EU. See the thread here : http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/63493-walls-keep-tumbling-down.html


I don't see any information there Steve, just speculation about the 'potential' for this to come about. Once again, no hard facts, no links to anything supporting this, just an invite to air our feelings before it can be discussed further.


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## cornmorphs

its not looking good long term is it


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## brittone05

I voted no - I don't beleive we will be keeping in 10 years time.

Obviously if you call being so restricted that it just isn't worth the hassle "keeping" then in a wya we may well be but i honestly beleive that keeping is having the freedom to choose the species we can house, the most apppropriate way to house them (that not being a 10 foot boa in a 0 foot viv!) and caring for them to the best of our own ability not ot the guidelines written by someone who has never owned such species or had any close contct with them.

Shame really more people weren't as committed to fighting the cause as they are to slammng the people who are working their asses off to actually do something about it

(and that isn't directed at anyone specific before anyone jumps onthier soapbox )


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## balthazar196

bloody hope its not banned...i would still keep on with reptiles even if its banned i couldnt bare not having my beardie with me


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## Fixx

brittone05 said:


> Shame really more people weren't as committed to fighting the cause as they are to slammng the people who are working their asses off to actually do something about it
> 
> (and that isn't directed at anyone specific before anyone jumps onthier soapbox )


I'm not slamming anyone, I just want more facts rather than speculation and an invitation to air my feelings.


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## darkdan99

whever legal or not i will be keeping reptiles, and invertabrates for my WHOLE life. If i get knicked then i will do bird and come back otu, within a week i will have more reptiles and inverts. 

There is NO WAY ON EARTH that govenment numpties will take my passion love and hobby away from me.


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## shiva&kaa123

darkdan99 said:


> whever legal or not i will be keeping reptiles, and invertabrates for my WHOLE life. If i get knicked then i will do bird and come back otu, within a week i will have more reptiles and inverts.
> 
> There is NO WAY ON EARTH that govenment numpties will take my passion love and hobby away from me.


Well said! No pompous civil servant bastards are going to stop us doing what we love!
Ben


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## brittone05

As I say Ray, I was not and am not directing my comments towards anyone - there are a lot of people who are very sceptical of the information that is made available and in a lot of ways htat is understandable 

hope you iddn't take any offence by my comment as it wasn't directed at you


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## ratboy

Fixx said:


> I don't see any information there Steve, just speculation about the 'potential' for this to come about. Once again, no hard facts, no links to anything supporting this, just an invite to air our feelings before it can be discussed further.


Fair point Ray. I was told that this was being discussed at the last ERAC meeting so perhaps someone from there can provide us with some more information ?


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## SuperTed

hmm do you think they will let us keep pet worms?


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## Athravan

I voted yes; I think the hobby will still be here in 10 years. I do think it will be changed, just as it has changed a lot in the last 10 years. I don't know about you guys - but I can remember the information available, the level of care, the state of the local pet shops selling reptiles 10 years ago, and things have changed a lot... what has changed most of all is how mainstream buying reptiles has become.

10 years ago I was thought of as the greatest weirdo in high school for keeping snakes by the other kids, and their parents - these days, most of my customers are parents buying for their kids. These might not be hobbyists, they may not fight right now for something they aren't aware is happening, but you can guarantee if the tens of thousands of people who keep a reptile or two as a "pet" are suddenly told it's illegal, and to hand over their beloved family animals to someone for euthanisation, they will stand up, and they will complain, and they will refuse.

I honestly think that this forum is a great minority, and that the hobbyist is not the only one out there, the pet keepers, the "normal" people who count their animals as loved family pets will also stand up and fight if the fight is brought to them.

Enforced change may come in the form of new legislation and guidelines, but I do think the hobby will still be here, and I know I'll still be keeping reptiles.


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## purejurrasic

Well I voted yes...

but only because I belive the support is growing to show that our hobby isnt the cruel barbaric hobby the antis would have others belive.

Because there are people out there who are standing up

Because there are those who are willing to be accused of all sorts in order to bring us info

And because we have the will to fight on, to take our accusers head on, to dish the dirt back.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Ray*

If we had the links for this available Ray, then it would mean that this was starting to become a serious concern. At present it is deep within European Consultation with the potential activity attached to it.

I think if l said that Pro Keepers Lobby is for pro active discussion, lobbying and action in comparison to defensive action.... it might make more sense.

Your style is for defensive action, hard facts present and evidence also present, wait for it to be here and then act on doing something about it. Our style is to try and thwart possible action and have a defence ready before it becomes active.

This is not meant to be read as hostile, but l would rather people be aware and be able to tackle it prior rather than wait for it to arrive and then try and beat it.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## balthazar196

i voted because there are more and more people keeping reptiles...in college ive found a whole bunch of people who keep reptiles and other exotic pets. So if keeping reptiles keeps growing it will make banning it very difficult


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Why?*

It is one thing for a growing population to keep reptiles and as such it might then form a defence.

BUT what good is it if the majority of keepers do not wish to fight for that growiing hobby?

R
PKL


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## ratboy

balthazar196 said:


> i voted because there are more and more people keeping reptiles...in college ive found a whole bunch of people who keep reptiles and other exotic pets. So if keeping reptiles keeps growing it will make banning it very difficult


This is where it all falls a bit flat....

The talk at the moment is of the European Union itself banning imports of reptiles into the EU... this is nothing to do with the UK. It would become European law in Brussels ... If it did happen we would only get to find out about it afterwards... just like we only got to find out about the European Protected Species (EPS) afterwards. There were warnings about that 2-3 years ago too... nobody did anything... and now it's law.

After the EU have passed the import laws ( and with this virus scare being bandied about, that should be a walk in the park ) , it would not matter if every herp keeper in the country complained until they were blue in the face. With the EPS, the PKL are not campaigning to get the law changed... they are campaigning to clarify the fate of the captive animals of the members of those species that are already in captivity but whose origins cannot be proven.

The Labour government will stand up for our rights to keep the pound... but you can be damn sure they are not going to stand up for us against this.


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## Dan

People still fighting losing battles i see.

Said it before Rory, don't fight battles you can't win. Apathy is here to stay (whether the hobby does or not), get used to it and focus your attentions elsewhere.


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## miffikins

I reckon it will still be around. I have no doubt that there will be changes, the possibility of licensing all our animals, which I for one would not have a problem with, could come about. But stuff like that could be good for the hobby, it would probably put off people who buy on a whim, thus less abandoned animals and a better reputation for us. Outright ban, I don't think so. Why would they waste all that money taking stuff like Boiga dendrophilis (sp) off the DWA list if they're goin to ban them anyway??

Even people who arn't hobbyists, who maybe just have a beardie or a leo or a corn are not going to let their animals be taken from them. The British are a nation of animal lovers, to a point where the rest of the world thinks we're crazy, I just can't see it not being here, especially seeing how mainstream it has become in the last decade.

And can you see anyone letting mass euthanasia happen?? My mother hates reptiles, but I'm 100% sure even she would stand up and have a shout against that. Again because we're British and we like animals lol!

Big change, probably. Ban no.

Wow that was long, sorry :lol2:

: victory:


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Dan*

Apathy is present in all quarters not just animal keeping, lest us not forget that.

I am concentrating in other areas as you l am sure are well aware.

Apathy can never be truly beaten, but you can and there is no harm in endeavouring to try to encourage the apathetic to think along new lines.

Its a bit like the chap who pm'd me and said move off the private keeper and hobbiest for when all fails they will simply buy a dog.

Perhaps some will, but then they will lose out.

There is no need to just give up, there is a fight in everyone, and pkl want to see that fighting spirit.

The private keeper may think me a pain in the arse, societies may not like me, the regulators think we are jumping up and down for fun, the opposition are just watching - for we are getting stronger by the day and we are starting to be taken heed of. Bloody hell the retail community does not even trust me - but why should we back off into other areas?

WHAT OTHER AREAS are there?

ALL AREAS are affected DAN.

Legislation is being shovelled down our throats, and unless, UNLESS we speak out now it will be with us, and there will not be a damn thing we can do about it. Simple!

Which battles?

All battles have a winner, loser or a drawer!

Which ones should we be?

Winner?

Losers?

Drawers?

Who should we be?

Will there be a hobby in ten, l bloody well hope so, and so should more bloody keepers simple.

PKL will fight for the voice of the keeper!

We can do it alone with the small handful of keepers we have now and it will take time.

OR more keepers can wake up and take note that there are way too many out there that are grinning with pure delight because the 'hobbiest' does not give a shit about the way things are going!

Well DAN, as you are only too well aware [again] there are those including you my friend who do care, we will welcome on board those who want to help, whom want to contribute and those whom do not just want the friggin option of having a bloody dog as a companion pet in their future - as the sole pet of the household.

Hell Dan, fighting losing battles...............is that the most optimistic thing you can say?

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## monitorfan666

I voted yes it will still be around

I will fight those B^$!^(DS to the death!!
:lol2:
i really do hope it will be :smile:
:grin1:


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## ratboy

With all the people that have voted yes....

Would your opinion change if I told you that in at least one country in the EU it is already ILLEGAL to keep Boids (Boas and Pythons) and Elapids ? 

Now given that the EU is all about uniformity across Europe. Which is more likely ? Let them start keeping these and bring them into line with us ? or stop us and bring us into line with them ?


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## Dan

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hell Dan, fighting losing battles...............is that the most optimistic thing you can say?


Nahh, but it's no fun being optimistic if you're a pessimist (wonder if that is spelled right?  ) :lol2:

I am optimistic, that you are treading the dangerously fine line of becoming like the FBH in the doom spreading and that's what caused a LOT of the apathy in the first place, but the optimism comes from knowing you can still turn it round IF you so choose......


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*The best bit..............*

...................about this poll is this.

At present 8 do not think there will be a hobby in ten years time.

YET, 28 of you believe with a burning passion that there will be, albeit with some restriction?

I love to see passion, how many of you are PKL orientated?

How many of you 'yes' voters [apart from those that l can see PKL in your signatures] support the notion of supporting a lobby that needs your help to make damn sure that this hobby does continue for you?

R
PKL


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## Guest

i voted yes and i think we need more people to do more than click the above links click here and be counted
Pro Keepers Lobby | "Left Wing Right Politics!"

Also because i think theres more people listening to the likes of the pro keepers lobby's Rory! numbers speak for them selves nearly 200 members already cant be bad 

dont let them ruin it for us !!!!!!!!


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## miffikins

I guess its all about how prevelant reptile keeping is in that country. All the countries have many laws which differ....

There are far more of us than people realise, enough of us to oppose a ban I think. If they impose a ban then where does it stop?? Hamsters are exotic, chinchilla's, chipmunks, gerbils, budgies, infact rabbits are as well, they were only introduced a few hundred years ago..... Can you imagine all the old dears giving up their budgies?? 

I could put most reps on DWA eventually, I think the big boids (burms, retics) should be on there anyway....

Maybe I'm just optimistic....prepared for change, but optimistic non the less. I'll move countries if I can't keep my herps here :grin1:


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Dan - the sequel*

You know damn well that l am a pessimist, but even us pessi's can be changed by the opti's.

The Voice of Doom, yep l have to be honest apparently that is what l am.

Alongside other things.

What would you have me do Dan?

PKL are in the throes now of activating all the members to contribution towards the hobby.

This is already better than most societies.

We do not charge a membership fee although we are looking at a possible future fee of either a £1 or a fiver with a view to using that for advertisign for the hobby.

It has been suggested that we could try and offer the keepers/members of PKL something.

So doing something to save the hobby is not enough?

Fine, a colourful bangle, a bright party balloon perhaps? LOL

Or perhaps trying to get the societies to see us as a responsible lobby and possibly a tie in with the shows?

This might work, seeing as shows are on the agenda of vendors legislation set to be instigated next year under new secondary legislation. 

Or what?

Paint bright sunny posts, about how everything is fine and dandy, and hey dont worry, there is nothing wrong, politics will not affect us - never affect us. How about that? is that better?

Sorry Dan, l can't do that.

The FBH may have been the voice of doom for a period, now its me, now its the black sheep herd of PKL.

I would love things to be fine, great, comforting..............but they are not. Everything is under the firing hammer.

R
PKL


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## ratboy

miffikins said:


> Maybe I'm just optimistic....prepared for change, but optimistic non the less. I'll move countries if I can't keep my herps here :grin1:


To where ?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Valid point*

Sadly Miffkins, Ratboy is correct.

Where would you move to?

Europe would be out of the question.

So a non EU move.

Australia, mm, l don't think so.

The States, maybe, but for how long.

China or Japan, might be good options.

Not taking the pee, but the problem is - this - if they do ban herps - there will not be many places left to run to.

R
PKL


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## Dan

You're in a chirpy mood tonight!!

Look at it this way. The FBH thought the same way as you did and people started ignoring them and now they can't get the people back.

I don't care how hard it may be for you but you HAVE to try a different tact as this one is proven to fail.


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## Guest

miffikins said:


> I guess its all about how prevelant reptile keeping is in that country. All the countries have many laws which differ....
> 
> There are far more of us than people realise, enough of us to oppose a ban I think. If they impose a ban then where does it stop?? Hamsters are exotic, chinchilla's, chipmunks, gerbils, budgies, infact rabbits are as well, they were only introduced a few hundred years ago..... Can you imagine all the old dears giving up their budgies??
> 
> I could put most reps on DWA eventually, I think the big boids (burms, retics) should be on there anyway....
> 
> Maybe I'm just optimistic....prepared for change, but optimistic non the less. I'll move countries if I can't keep my herps here :grin1:


if you would move countries to get away from these problems why not join a fight againts it ? or are you already a member ?:lol2:


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## Guest

reticulatus said:


> You're in a chirpy mood tonight!!
> 
> Look at it this way. The FBH thought the same way as you did and people started ignoring them and now they can't get the people back.
> 
> I don't care how hard it may be for you but you HAVE to try a different tact as this one is proven to fail.


 
What are you doing then Dan ?


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## miffikins

Already a member thank you. Signed up when I first saw it in someones sig :grin1: 

I'm quite happy to fight if it comes to that, but like I said, I think there is more of us that either the government or RSPCA realise, soooooo hopefully it won't ever come to a ban. And if it does, I shall move back to Mexico with my animals and swap my heaters for fans :lol2:


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## Dan

SteveL said:


> What are you doing then Dan ?


Sitting on a carpenters horse, answering emails and pm's on a laptop sat on a box of books and dvds in a house with no heating - you?

Oh, you meant in respect to the post at hand? :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I do what i can, where i can. I answer questions, i point people in the right direction (in my view), i answer calls from upset people looking to cause trouble, i make calls to pacify the upset people and i generally offer my two penneth to anyone that wants it at any time of the day any night (as many can testify). Aswell as all the usual stuff (ie letter sending, petitions etc) of course.
What i don't and won't do is put myself forward for any important roles. I am not the right person for that sort of job so rather than offer myself for lack of a better substitute i push people i think have the right qualities in the direction they should go. Unfortunately you can only lead a horse to water etc etc So when drinking doesn't happen i try to wind up others to find the qualities i am looking for in the hope they will take a big old drink.
Not much really.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Okay*

Dan, 

What tact?

You know the score financially as l do.

What tact?

Landbased?

I agree, indeed l do, but with what?

Where does the money come from?

So we look at retail, the bridge to the backbone.

However, retail are upset at 'me' why?

Because retail dont care who l bash, as long as its not them!

Am l bashing retail, am l? 

Or am l asking everyone to look at everything with new eyes instead of old eyes.

Bashing?

So l can bash:

Keepers
Opposition
Regulation
Legislation
Hobbiests
Societies
Ignorance
Apathy

But l am not allowed to touch base with the retailers.

What tact do you suggest Dan?

Rory


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## Guest

reticulatus said:


> Sitting on a carpenters horse, answering emails and pm's on a laptop sat on a box of books and dvds in a house with no heating - you?
> 
> Oh, you meant in respect to the post at hand? :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> I do what i can, where i can. I answer questions, i point people in the right direction (in my view), i answer calls from upset people looking to cause trouble, i make calls to pacify the upset people and i generally offer my two penneth to anyone that wants it at any time of the day any night (as many can testify). Aswell as all the usual stuff (ie letter sending, petitions etc) of course.
> What i don't and won't do is put myself forward for any important roles. I am not the right person for that sort of job so rather than offer myself for lack of a better substitute i push people i think have the right qualities in the direction they should go. Unfortunately you can only lead a horse to water etc etc So when drinking doesn't happen i try to wind up others to find the qualities i am looking for in the hope they will take a big old drink.
> Not much really.


Im sitting thinking your bullshitting me 

i need to see proof :lol2:


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## Dan

SteveL said:


> Im sitting thinking your bullshitting me
> 
> i need to see proof :lol2:


There isn't any that i am willing to provide so i'll just accept your thoughts and carry on as is (doing nothing apparently:Na_Na_Na_Na


Rory,
I've never said you can't touch base with retailers, not once, for a reason. However, think who currently relies on retailers and then ask yourself who doesn't want you to speak to retailers.

Here's my general idea for the evening that you can work out wont work (for what ever reason).
Set up a paypall account, post the details for it EVERYWHERE and ask for any amount of money £1 they want to give you. Tell them it is for a TV advert.
Ask for membership fee of £2 for PKL - Get trade involved, give them £1 back for every member and free advertising in "supporters" section on PKL website.
Get a professional to do any website work you have, break the text down.

Take the money and advertise on TV during target specific programs.

Get membership up to usefull numbers (10,000 should do) and then poll the lot on various subjects. Take the data to a professional to write it up (who also conveniently keeps exotics so does it "cheap") and submit to DEFRA for appropriate reasons.

Change your focus from telling everyone the world is crap to just telling people who want to know. The rest will slowly follow suit and apathy is beaten not fought 

You can make the above as simple or as complicated as "you" want, the latter probably:lol2:


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## miffikins

reticulatus said:


> Here's my general idea for the evening that you can work out wont work (for what ever reason).
> Set up a paypall account, post the details for it EVERYWHERE and ask for any amount of money £1 they want to give you. Tell them it is for a TV advert.
> Ask for membership fee of £2 for PKL - Get trade involved, give them £1 back for every member and free advertising in "supporters" section on PKL website.
> Get a professional to do any website work you have, break the text down.
> 
> Take the money and advertise on TV during target specific programs.
> 
> Get membership up to usefull numbers (10,000 should do) and then poll the lot on various subjects. Take the data to a professional to write it up (who also conveniently keeps exotics so does it "cheap") and submit to DEFRA for appropriate reasons.


This seems like a pretty intelligent idea....constructive. Whats £2 to everyone on this forum, a box of crickets?? It would actually add up

: victory:


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Retailers*

It was not from who you think, my information is from retail themselves.

REPTA should be directly involved with the retailers of the United Kingdom and they are not. They are involved with the bigger suppliers and manufacturers, but not with the shops.

We need to get retail connected with REPTA, even if in a flagship manner, this needs to happen.

Retail is working on a campaign of their own at present and we will see how that progresses.

Beauty in itself Dan your quote *'that you can work out wont work '*

So, if l was to see a flaw with it, and l made it present, you are covered with your quote, showing that l am deliberate in my attempts to not make it work, the same is applicable with your closing statement:

*"You can make the above as simple or as complicated as "you" want, the latter probably"*

But, l have no problems with your idea, it is sound. It may take some working out to deliver it.

R
PKL


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## TSKA Rory Matier

There is nothing wrong with the idea Miff, ideas of a similiar nature have been tried before and failed through people not wishing to donate.

But as said quite right, tonight too many £2 is viable tomorrow well who would know, and if handled correctly yes it might work.

R
PKL


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Plus we do already have data analysts on board within PKL. As we do legal bods.

But we will see.

Dan is after all PKL so his idea is welcomed, so we will place this on board in effect tomorrow.

R
PKL


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## Athravan

Rory, I want to know why you say retailers are upset at you, and what you're doing to try and get them on your side, or help them keep informed, or inform their customers...

I'm a retailer, some of the things said seem to be against retailers sometimes, or accuse them of not doing the correct job, I haven't seen much contact or heard of you guys contacting other retailers, despite the fact I did spend a good evening (when I don't have a huge amount of time) typing up some 130+ retailer addresses so you guys would have an easy contact list to inform people about legislation changes.

Despite coming under fire from hobbyists and people within the PKL that doesn't mean I won't help the cause, or won't do my best to fight and inform my customers about legislation as well as the correct care of animals.... and I am not sure why you would say that retailers are upset at you.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Valid points raised Athravan.

And as you know l have pm'd my reply to you directly.

PKL will be seen as aggressors by retail, but we are not anti retail, we are very much pro retail.

What are we doing?

Okay, well whilst the campaign for Retail Aid is currently in the research phase at present - we are looking to address it fully next month and will be making posts out to retail directly.

We are hoping to be able to create a Flagship Administration, this will hopefully be able to assist retailers now and in the future.

However, it is not an easy task, and at present l can not reveal the structure to it, but l will in time.

I am not out to 'get' retailers or 'bash' them, enough of that kind of rubbish is performed here alone and resolves no issues.

Your list, was/is/and is going to be very useful and is currently sitting with the retail group.

At this present time, l do not and have not contacted retail directly for a very good reason - until this campaign is ready to launch and we have the distribution in place, and all ready to go, l will not deliberately trouble already busy retailers with purely an idea.

Hope this helps

Rory
PKL


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## brittone05

I am sorry if the following upsets anyone but I feel I must get it off my chest now so I can work properly today!

If people were actually "doing" something to help the cause then would it really be necessary for Rory to type the threads he has made?

Would people rather see threads saying "XXXX proposes that this be banned - we stopped it in it's tracks with the help of our member's support" - of course they would. Right now though it seems that only a small number of people are actually including themselves in the support structure of PKL.

Many of you sit and read these threads and then subsequently picking apart what Rory is saying - it is a sad shame that you don't put the same effort ito supporting osmething that WILL eventually effect you.

Yes, we would all ilke to live in the world where freedom of choice was at the forefront of things - come on get a grip for blinkers sake. We live in a society where rapists have more human rights choices than thier victims, where terrorists can walk freely into our country with little or no checks as to thier credentials, where children have more rights to create havoc than parents do to discipline them. Do you really think such a society gives a flying f**k about us lot? If they did - where are they?

The only people who can truly push this forward are hte keepers and the associated retailers/suppliers etc (I know some retailers here are already doing all they can to work alongside PKL - Athraven is working her backside off in the little spare time she has complling lists and working research) Yet only a handful of you will openly say "I support the work PKL are doing and will help where ever I can".

I think it is about time people stopped thier personal crusades to bring down others, to try to belittle the facts that are being stated on various threads and start wondering how they will feel when the day arrives that they wished they had done more.

For those of you who beleive that PKL is a waste of time etc etc - what else would oyu suggest? I know you have put ideas forward Dan and some of them have been good but at present may not be a viable option for PKl - what else would you put forward to help? Is there anything other than goading Rory and inturn, those of us who are working hard to do something constructive?


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## Dan

brittone05 said:


> For those of you who beleive that PKL is a waste of time etc etc - what else would oyu suggest? I know you have put ideas forward Dan and some of them have been good but at present may not be a viable option for PKl - what else would you put forward to help? Is there anything other than goading Rory and inturn, those of us who are working hard to do something constructive?


Don't think for one minute my involvement is limited to just annoying people publicly - that's just a hobby.

Rory, of course i covered my back - that's what people do in this business to survive - at all costs, is it not?

Of course if something didn't work the first time with bad publicity then it wont work any other time with better publicity. Forget what has been done previously (unless it was a serious failure) and try it all again. If you don't try you'll never know.


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## mEOw

sooo.. out of curiosity how much would it cost for a tv advert? :/


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## SiUK

about £25,000 for a run of about 20 adverts I believe, they were talking about it on Dragons den


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## SiUK

Im gonna stick my neck on the block here probably to get torn apart but sod it, Im sure im not the only one thats confused on the whole subject, I see lots of speculation but not alot of facts, I respect you alot Rory and what you are doing for the hobby campaigning hard and making every body think carefully about the future of the hobby. But what is solid facts and what is speculation and whats the basis of the speculation? Im sure im not the only one who has thought this.


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## Nerys

SiUK said:


> about £25,000 for a run of about 20 adverts I believe, they were talking about it on Dragons den


you'd be lucky! whats that on.."no-one-watches-me-tv" 

a national TV campaign, 30 sec broadcast, at decent times.. more like 70+

it varies according to the program either side of the ad too..

papers and magazines are not cheap either.. something like a good placed page advert in the Sun is around £30k

and yes, i work associated with the media.. 

N


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## toyah

Just out of interest ratboy, in which country is it now illegal to keep any boas or pythons?


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## SiUK

Nerys said:


> you'd be lucky! whats that on.."no-one-watches-me-tv"
> 
> a national TV campaign, 30 sec broadcast, at decent times.. more like 70+
> 
> it varies according to the program either side of the ad too..
> 
> papers and magazines are not cheap either.. something like a good placed page advert in the Sun is around £30k
> 
> and yes, i work associated with the media..
> 
> N


I just remember them talking about it on last series of Dragons den


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## Nerys

thats as maybe.. but we have been talking to people the last few days lol..

dragons den, i'm afraid, is not accurate with that statement

actually, what happened when we called to ask a TV advertising company... is they laughed and said "who the hell told you that, they are talking out of their arse! " 

i work within the media simon.. trust me.. it costs a flip of a lot more than £25,000 for 20 ads... unless you are buying like 2000 ads in one hit, on something like grampion at 3.30am half way through their version of the learning zone..

a national TV advertising campaign, tailored to the right market, in the right time sector.. for £25,000. sorry but that just bollocks!

harsh, blunt.. TRUE

N


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## SiUK

im not questioning you at all, just saying where I heard it, I didnt just pluck a number out of thin air


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## Nerys

no, but i think dragons den did lol..

tbh Si advertising in the national media is what i work with all day.. we do a lot of market research for advertising agencies and national media companies, most of the work is done so people can sell more ads to more companies..

costs a total fortune tbh. even the market research we do costs a fortune!

N


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## SiUK

I still think youtube is a pretty good way of getting info over to alot of people for free.


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## Nerys

there is a lot goes on on utube yes lol.. some of it makes your toes curl!

N


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## SiUK

I have seen PETA vids on there several times, and if you label the title correctly and put a variety of keywords then it has the potential for thousands of people to see.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Speculation*



SiUK said:


> Im gonna stick my neck on the block here probably to get torn apart but sod it, Im sure im not the only one thats confused on the whole subject, I see lots of speculation but not alot of facts, I respect you alot Rory and what you are doing for the hobby campaigning hard and making every body think carefully about the future of the hobby. But what is solid facts and what is speculation and whats the basis of the speculation? Im sure im not the only one who has thought this.


 
Hi Simon, 

Okay what is it that you require in solid facts?

Irrefutable evidence surrounds the hobby now.

But still speculation is the word used to describe everything we raise and discuss.

What is it you wish to see in evidential facts?

Would it make you happier to see the Antis write in their websites that they wish to see a total ban on the hobbies, the keeping of pets, exotic and domestic?

But they do not do they?

Why?

Because of the empathy vote Si. 

The antis and the likes of the RSPCA can not financially afford to write such things, because they will lose donations. Those that empathise with the likes of those formerly mentioned are useful as finances now.

When we are gone then in a typical classic move, the RSPCA and the antis will turn on their donators and start causing them grief.

But if you tell me what you are after l will try and assist.

Rory

PKL


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## toyah

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi Simon,
> 
> Okay what is it that you require in solid facts?


Just a suggestion. You're saying this has already happened with birds. Why not post some of the information from DeFRA or similar sites about the legislation now surrounding the ban on captive bred bird imports?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Okay*

Alright, but surely you knew about the Ban on Birds yes?

If not look at this BBC News Bulletins from 2005 - 2006 - 2007

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | EU bans imports of exotic birds

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Wild bird trade ban 'should stay'

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | EU to ban imports of wild birds

I will try and wade through the DEFRA website now to find the connection links

Rory
PKL


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## ratboy

Taken from the DEFRA site...

*What are the controls on imports of captive birds from outside the EU?*

A temporary ban on imports of captive birds from outside of the EU was agreed on 25 October 2005 at the Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health (SCoFCAH). At a meeting of SCoFCAH on 5 February 2007, Member States endorsed a Commission Decision to extend the ban on EU imports of live captive birds other than poultry. It was agreed that the import ban would remain in place until 30 June 2007. From 1 July 2007, new rules will come into effect indefinitely, these will still ban wild-caught birds but allow captive-bred birds from approved breeding establishments in some countries outside the EU.


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## SiUK

surely all those articles raise valid points about bird flu though, bird flu has killed countless people and ruined farmers in other countries and we definately wouldnt want a epidemic of it here, I think the reasoning behind stopping it is fair enough at the moment, bird flu is a big problem in parts of the world.


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## SiUK

ratboy said:


> Taken from the DEFRA site...
> 
> *What are the controls on imports of captive birds from outside the EU?*
> 
> A temporary ban on imports of captive birds from outside of the EU was agreed on 25 October 2005 at the Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health (SCoFCAH). At a meeting of SCoFCAH on 5 February 2007, Member States endorsed a Commission Decision to extend the ban on EU imports of live captive birds other than poultry. It was agreed that the import ban would remain in place until 30 June 2007. From 1 July 2007, new rules will come into effect indefinitely, these will still ban wild-caught birds but allow captive-bred birds from approved breeding establishments in some countries outside the EU.


I dont see a problem with that, if its too stop the spread of bird flu


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## ratboy

SiUK said:


> surely all those articles raise valid points about bird flu though, bird flu has killed countless people and ruined farmers in other countries and we definately wouldnt want a epidemic of it here, I think the reasoning behind stopping it is fair enough at the moment, bird flu is a big problem in parts of the world.


From 1 July 2007, new rules will come into effect indefinitely, these will still ban wild-caught birds but allow captive-bred birds from approved breeding establishments in some countries outside the EU.

It's nothing to do with Bird Flu Si... that was just an excuse. Just the same as this virus that is sweeping through Reptile and Amphibian species will be an excuse.


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## SiUK

ratboy said:


> From 1 July 2007, new rules will come into effect indefinitely, these will still ban wild-caught birds but allow captive-bred birds from approved breeding establishments in some countries outside the EU.
> 
> It's nothing to do with Bird Flu Si... that was just an excuse. Just the same as this virus that is sweeping through Reptile and Amphibian species will be an excuse.


I see what you mean mate, and part of me agrees but another part of me says that its speculation that bird flu is an excuse, I try to look at things from both sides, it was a very real threat not talked about so much now, but is still a big problem, we have unfortunately seen what diseases do to our farming industry, cripple it, what with BSE and foot and mouth farmers going bankrupt, and it was a real struggle to kick start the industry again, and recently again we have had foot and mouth problems.


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## toyah

ratboy said:


> From 1 July 2007, new rules will come into effect indefinitely, these will still ban wild-caught birds but allow captive-bred birds from approved breeding establishments in some countries outside the EU.


So we can still trade captive bred birds with all other EU countries, and we can still import birds from other countries outside the EU, as long as they're kept and bred in reasonable environments that are approved by - well, it doesn't say, but I assume UK government approved. That actually doesn't sound *that* restrictive, especially when you consider it's a lockdown on the back of the H5N1 virus, which has the potential to cause major damage to things far more important then pet keeping.

In which country is it now illegal to keep any boas or pythons?


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## ratboy

It does not really matter now if it's an excuse or not though. The fact is that now the ruling is indefinate and no WC birds are allowed in to the EU and no captive bred birds are allowed in unless they were bred by approved breeders.

If this is the case with birds then it stands to reason that they will follow the same ideas with Reptiles and Amphibians and Mammals.


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## ratboy

toyah said:


> So we can still trade captive bred birds with all other EU countries, and we can still import birds from other countries outside the EU, as long as they're kept and bred in reasonable environments that are approved by - well, it doesn't say, but I assume UK government approved. That actually doesn't sound *that* restrictive, especially when you consider it's a lockdown on the back of the H5N1 virus, which has the potential to cause major damage to things far more important then pet keeping.


No, this is European law. The breeders will have to be approved by the EU.



> In which country is it now illegal to keep any boas or pythons?


Portugal. It's been illegal there since 1992 according to a portugese keeper I have been talking to.


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## toyah

ratboy said:


> It does not really matter now if it's an excuse or not though. The fact is that now the ruling is indefinate and no WC birds are allowed in to the EU and no captive bred birds are allowed in unless they were bred by approved breeders.
> 
> If this is the case with birds then it stands to reason that they will follow the same ideas with Reptiles and Amphibians and Mammals.


Is there any actual evidence that this will be extended to reptiles, amphibians, and mammals? Or is this just being assumed on the basis of what has happened to birds?

To be honest if it did happen, my only potential issues with that are:
1. How does one become an approved breeder/facility for import into the UK? As long as the process is not too involved or "unfair" then it's not really an issue.

2. Are zoos and similar facilities exempted from this, to allow rare and delicate species to be kept? I assume if this was extended to cover other species, then exemptions would be made if they are not already.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Spot on*

Europe sees more imports of mammals than everywhere else.............well apart from the non EU countries.

The clamps on mammals are already in place.

It is hard to try and explain in a forum thread what would fill twelve volumes of war and piece about all the legislation, the politics, the hidden lines and of course the attached agendas.

This year alone more policies are released that affect all sorts of fraternities, right across the board. Legislation follows up in either secondary form or primary form. 

Some secondary can be over turned but primary not.

Consultations are verywhere about the state of the industry.

I don't expect the keepers to be aware of everything...but politics and legislational change has been with us for quite some time.

I do agree that more should have been done to inform all, but then in defence, no one listened before because they always thought that this bloody problem would not affect them!

Well the problem is - now it does affect you.

EPS was not and is not the fault of the keeper nor their animals.

It is the fault of DEFRA, how many other DEFRA faults are awaiting to be released onto the keepers???

It has been around for years, who listened back then??

Did you??

Well if you had no EPS species, why should you?

But how about those who do, and how much backing do they get from the rest of you?

Very bloody little, why because most of the time you are only interested in what affects you.

Unification - we talk of it, do you know what it really means??

Simple, irrelevant to whether as a keeper you keep EPS species, you should be sending something in to say 'this is not right!' to help and support your fellow keepers, and for that matter your retailers who are part of the industry that your hobbies are embroiled within.

But you dont, your heads are firmly affixed to the sand base.

The sad fact is, you do not want to believe, you can say in this thread , we believe the hobby will live on! And show a dedication, but it is simple to do this in a poll, but then in other polls we see that you can not be bothered to send in any support to your fellow keepers on EPS. 

Not good is it really, to be so motivated by a fear of what could happen, when if you stood up, took ground and answered back, raising your voice to be loud, we might be heard.

At present the only ones being listened to are those with the loudest voices. And guess what?

They are not pro keepers!

Rory
PKL


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## LFBP-NEIL

> this virus that is sweeping through Reptile and Amphibian species will be an excuse


what virus (pardon my ignorance) ?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi Pink, 

The Ranavirus, the antis are trying to make a connection same as they were with the salmonella.

But at present they are ploughing finances into this research.

Suggestions lends us to believe they are using this research to tie with the export ban on reptiles and mammals.

I posted about Rana a couple of days back in the general herp forum. 

R
PKL


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## SiUK

I have tried to bring up the subject on a couple of other forums about the state of the hobby in general, and how aware people are and I got little or no support or even recognition.


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## LFBP-NEIL

ah! yes ranavirus has been causing the native frog population some problems for a good few years, i didnt realise it had started spreading to our native reptiles. The antis will be shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted with that one as its already here and is established.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

I know.

I did some quick study about it myself , and thought oh yes, l know where they will be going with this one, mmm!


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## TSKA Rory Matier

SiUK said:


> I have tried to bring up the subject on a couple of other forums about the state of the hobby in general, and how aware people are and I got little or no support or even recognition.


I Know, 

Don't worry, its called apathy and overall ignorance in many cases. Or scaremongering in others.

Welcome 

R
PKL


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## SiUK

I was a bit surprised on one forum that I got one response about the EPS legislation, when really even if it doesnt effect you, you would have an opinion on it.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Retics Idea*

*Well for my sins, no doubt l will get slated for this particluar post, but that is life l feel.*

*Anyway, last night Dan Fryer proposed a suggestion:*

*"Here's my general idea for the evening that you can work out wont work (for what ever reason).*

*Set up a paypall account, post the details for it EVERYWHERE and ask for any amount of money £1 they want to give you. Tell them it is for a TV advert.*

*Take the money and advertise on TV during target specific programs.
*
*Ask for membership fee of £2 for PKL - Get trade involved, give them £1 back for every member and free advertising in "supporters" section on PKL website.*

*Get membership up to usefull numbers (10,000 should do) and then poll the lot on various subjects. Take the data to a professional to write it up (who also conveniently keeps exotics so does it "cheap") and submit to DEFRA for appropriate reasons".*

*First:*

*Paypal account:*

*Easy enough to set up and establish, however it must be set up as an independant account aside from TSKA and placed into a Pro Keepers Lobby Account, with two signaturees to it. This is to verify to donators and as such members where the money is going, how it is to be used and for what it is to be used for.*

*Second:*

*Requesting money:*

*Well everybody would want to want to know where even £1 goes nowadays, so PKL's belief has always been, create the awareness associated to the brand, and then you can create the brand awareness.*

*So l feel that the strength of conviction for politics in todays society's must be stronger.*

*Third:*

*TV Advertising:*

*Okay, well adverts in tv travel is various 'seconds' slots as in time windows:*
*15, 20, 30, 45 second commercials.*

*First we would need to have a professionally designed and created commercial, this alone might be a movie or video style or still images. The former is more expensive £6-8,000 alone, compared to a stills which is about £5-6,000.*

*Second and more importantly we are looking at air time, this is the most expensive of a tv commercial. When we target our viewers for greater impact. What style of commercial we actually run, when we want it to be viewed, and to which demographic market, also is it to be regional or national? The latter would be best and that is more expensive that regional for obvious reasons. Also who do we choose to run it with?*

*Then we must decide how many we want to actually run, a single, a pair, six block, 12 block, or higher?*

*Overall, for prime viewing, into the right viewing market, over the course of one week, appearing nationally - lets say three adverts per night, eg movie commercial, at 6pm, 8pm and 10pm - right market, prime times.*

*How much are we looking for a 7 day week, 21 adverts minimum?*

*Well we would be looking at close to £100,000 + the extras, so lets say £120,000 for television advertising.*

*Fourth:*

*PKL Membership:*

*Yes this is something we are looking at for 2008, we are officially thinking £5. But before this is a confirmation we must ensure that all members are aware of what we stand for, who we are and more importantly what we are going to do with their fees. Until then, this is just an idea.*

*Fifth:*

*Retail PKL Membership:*

*Again something we are looking at, but if we are to charge, then they [retailers] must know what we intend to do with their finances also. What will it be, no different, probably a £5 per year fee.*

 
*Sixth:*

*10K Membership:*

*Yes this too would be lovely, but sad to say baby steps first, we have nearly 200 members now. And we do increase daily, but, things take time time Dan, and whilst your idea in fundamental is fine, it is not totally viable yet - but still a good idea, but simply not achievable yet.*

*Sorry.*

*Rory Matier*
*Pro Keepers Lobby

*


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## Guest

196 signatures!!!!!!!! more and more people are listening : victory:


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## Mujician

Why do they want to ban it? Anyway - with the captive breeding going on - unintentional as well - people in this country will have more tan enough animals to be content with. Maybe we could start breeding pools to try and increase the numbers of reps and stuff over here if the ban/whateveritis comes into place


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## brittone05

The sad thing with that though Mujician, is that a lot of the US breeders are creating stunning morphs and things that we don't have over here.

What would happen when say for example Ron Tremper create his next new leopard gecko morph? People in the EU would then stand no chance of ever being able to own one and the liklihood of producing anything he creates thereafter is gone because it would take one of the first morphs to do it (i that makes sense)

There is a massive trade from non EU countires importing into the UK and other EU countries - such a sad say for us wen it happens


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## ratboy

Mujician said:


> Why do they want to ban it? Anyway - with the captive breeding going on - unintentional as well - people in this country will have more tan enough animals to be content with. Maybe we could start breeding pools to try and increase the numbers of reps and stuff over here if the ban/whateveritis comes into place


That is possibly what will happen. Unfortunately, without fresh blood coming in to the gene pool it will stagnate and more and more diseases will start to show up through inbreeding. Until the WC element is gone... we do not know how much it will be missed, but in 10 or 20 years time, it's impact will be very significant.

The point of this poll was not to say that reptile keeping will be banned ( although it might ) but to say that import of WC and CB animals into the EU probably will be within the next 10 years. This is possibly not going to affect 'us' unduly but it will affect our kids and it will affect their kids.


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## toyah

Can I just ask for clarification - Is there any actual evidence that this will be extended to reptiles, amphibians, and mammals? Or is this just being assumed on the basis of what has happened to birds?


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## ratboy

It is up for discussion at European level Toyah. No there is no evidence that it will happen, but it is up for discussion along with about 1500 other pieces of legislation and an import ban is what is being advised by animal rights campaigners.

The bird issue is simply history of what did happen then and a route that could be followed this time if there is no opposition.


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## ratboy

the problem is, if we wait for them to tell us ( us = the UK ) what they have decided, it's too late to do anything about it. DEFRA will ban imports into the UK and say their hands are tied by Europe... which is exactly what has happened with the EPS.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*To further support*

Mammals from Europe are already under severe restrictions.

It is pointless trying to pretend as an industry that Mammals do not come into UK shores [of an exotic nature] from the result of European imports. And already this is ceasing basically down to European restrictions and much tighter CITES control.

This is already starting to seriously hamper the UK buying market of exotics.

Captive bred livestock levels in the UK are short and fresh blood and breeding lines are needed to further increase brredings and collections alone.

I further think the following and review this with speculative eyes should you so wish.

But l think 5 years in advance of now not only will this piece of legis be active but quite possibly active and a veteran at some 24 - 30 months. Meaning that this import ban on reptiles and mammals could well be in place by 2009.

Why do l think this way?

Simple, l speak to more people connected to the regulators than most on this forum, as well as the regulators themselves. I am also a consultant - broker if you wish that deals with import, export and quarantining and as such already know the restrictions l face on behalf of clients dealing with the EU and external EU. I read quite possibly 10 - 40 pieces of legislation pcm connected with the trade. I speak to Chris Newman on a daily basis, and some times three times a day on legislation affecting the United Kingdom and its connection with the hobbies and the industry. I also speak to other parties connected with the legislation, primary and secondary legislation.

This is going to happen people, whether you like it or not.

But it is going to happen.

Now l personally feel that if l was to present you with 30 articles to display to you that this was the case - hard evidential facts, and only one that said it was not, you would choose to believe that one, irrelevant to the issues discussed in the 30.

You can make a stand and make the impact less retrictive and still have a hobby, or you can sit back , wait for it to happen and moan like buggery. Many of you will choose the latter, some of you will choose the former.

Ladies and gentlemen, you really need to start considering how much animals actually mean to you as a whole, not just as a 'hobby' which is a pitiful way of summing up the time you spend with your animals, the finances you dedicate to them and the supposed passions you feel for them.

These are animals, they are not stamps or coins the latter which are collectables - they are supposedly your companions? Stop trying to find excuses and start trying to find answers to how we as a whole resolve legislation, protocol and procedure heading our way that will ultimately one day completely reduce the ability to keep anything bar a pet rock.

I do actually become quite frustrated , when l consider all the ranting and ravings and lame excuses for the way things are politically.

Lame excuses to date this week include insights into how others see things shaping up:

If they were going to reduce the 'hobby' why did they not do so with the arrival and introduction of the original DWA Act?

EPS - Europeans have lived with it safely, it does not affect them.

Twenty years ago the hobby was disappearing, no different to today and still a hobby.

Right, lets address those alone shall we? In reverse order.........

1] Twenty years ago the hobby was in no peril, twenty years ago 1987 it was sound. The keeping of animals is always under threat, so no change there. The real troubles for our hobby in many ways l suppose kicked off in 1999, with the heat being turned on 2001.

2] EPS: Right UK is part of Europe, Europe need for us to be in line with the rest of Europe, so the EPS is just one of the many moves which will do so. Are DEFRA using this as an excuse of saying their hands are tied - in some ways yes. They failed to introduce this 13 years ago, when they should have done. 13 Years ago the species in most of Europe was already under a species prohibition, so not many keepers in Europe had those species in their collections anyway, and as such were not seriously affected.

Any European who states today the EPS does not affect them is a fool. They have lived with this legislation legally since 1994 , why on earth would it affect them now unless they were illegal?

3] DWA - Thirty years ago the HOBBY was in no peril, but it was not acceptable to be seen walking down the high street with a Jaguar in tow on a lead, it was and still is Friggin dangerous. That had to be tightened up simple, and that is why it was introduced - Public Safety.

We still have as many retarded numpties out there whom think it is and would be perfectly acceptable to have a racoon on a lead now that they have been lifted off the licence. And it would not be, or people whom think it 'okay' to have a primate on a harness and walk around the park. 

The DWA may not have been the greatest way forwards, but it was a move forwards, now hmmmph! it is a definite move backwards.

This is simple, keepers will look for any possible ways of not having to agree with what we write, or think we are speaking from our back passages, because that is the simple way. The only problem with that...............?

We are living in much harder times now.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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