# UGF - taking from "fish for my dad thread"



## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

ok it has really got me intrested why people are so against UGF and why some think that UGF are only good on small filters? the only things i wouldnt use UGF on are chiclids that dig (e.g Frontosa)


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> ok it has really got me intrested why people are so against UGF and why some think that UGF are only good on small filters? the only things i wouldnt use UGF on are chiclids that dig (e.g Frontosa)


 
way back when they first produced outside power filters the manufacturers wanted to kill u.g. filters because more money could be made on power filters..


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

for the non enlightened...UGF??


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

aaaaaah under gravel filters.

I dunno, i'm not a huge fish person, but sami did have around ten setup at her old house, some had UGF (yay!) and they worked fine, in fact I can remeber her getting annoyed when we broke on moving things about...cos it was a good un.


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## Convict (Feb 21, 2008)

i use one with convict cichlids 

i did have it planted at one time and it was still fine


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

1) They dont have as large or safe bacteria colonies.

2) Its easy to accidently kill off the bacteria and put the tank into a cycle, killing most of the fish.

3) They dont do as much turnover as other filters.

4) Surface movement? I think not.

Like somoene else said, its like using a tape player when you can use an iPod.

If they are so good, why does my LFS not sell hem because "They are crap"? :whistling2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i always used power heads to run them. serious flow and surface agitation. they are not perfect but what really is?... IMO, they are still valid and have their place in the hobby. i always used aquaclear powerheads.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

"Like somoene else said, its like using a tape player when you can use an iPod."


exactly... a tape player does it's job and all you need to do is hit play or reverse. effective, simple and dependible..... ever fix an ipod?... you can fix a tape player.....


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Esfa said:


> 1) They dont have as large or safe bacteria colonies.
> 
> 2) Its easy to accidently kill off the bacteria and put the tank into a cycle, killing most of the fish.
> 
> ...


1) not true there proably have the best surface area and best bacteria of any filters, have you ever even used UGF or have a understanding on how they work?? 

2) the only way you will accdental kill off the bacteria is you decied to take all the gravel out and remove the tray!!!

3) do you mean gallons per hour?? i cant remember what UGF turnover is so i cant answer i'm shaw someone else will.

4) Undergravels DO have surace movement so again not true, and as Habu said you can add powerhead what have incredible water movement.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Marineland Penguin Powerheads, Powerheads | Pet Solutions

click on them to see their performance. aquaclears have adjustible flow rates.... penguins are very good too.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> 1) not true there proably have the best surface area and best bacteria of any filters, have you ever even used UGF or have a understanding on how they work??
> 
> 2) the only way you will accdental kill off the bacteria is you decied to take all the gravel out and remove the tray!!!
> 
> ...


1) More surface area then sponges and bioballs? :crazy: I have said to you before that I have used them.

2) The bacteria is only really on the top layer of the substrate. Accidently hoover that up and BOOM. Mini cycle.

3) -

4) Only if you ADD a powerhead. Dont need to do that with a HOB/Internal/External.


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Ive used most methods of filtration,used to work in a shop run entirely on UG.Always found it to be excellent so long as a gravel cleaner was used weekly.Ive got a 30"x18"x18" with a fluval 405,fluval 4+,and fluval 3+(its quite well stocked!) and havent found the water quality to be any different to an old tank of same size with UG and powerheads.What im trying to say is all methods work well if you know what your doing.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Under Gravel or Undergravel Filters - The First Tank Guide - Filtering Your Aquarium Water

The Undergravel Filter Controversy


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

I don't use them for the fact that i have a lot of digging fish. The ipod/tape player is a good argument. Tape players work dont they, but people wont buy one now if they can get an ipod. It's just an advancement that is overshadowing older technology. My VW is 8 years old, but it does the same job as my sisters brand new Citreon C3. Its just personal choice me thinks


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Esfa said:


> 1) More surface area then sponges and bioballs? :crazy: I have said to you before that I have used them.
> 
> I don`t know where you have got your data from but this is NOT correct
> 
> ...


not true see above you really do know bugger all and need to shut up.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

i used one for my 4ft axolotl setup i had in my old front room..

it was ace, and the axies were thriving in it. they don't like too much water flow, so for that, it was good.. 

sami


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Lesson 1 learnt today:

Dont argue with stupid people.

They will only bring you down to thier level and beat you with experience.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

i am sorry but i do not take lightly to been called stupid it is you who is turning a discussion (that i am quite enjoying) into a fight.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Esfa said:


> Lesson 1 learnt today:
> 
> Dont argue with stupid people.
> 
> They will only bring you down to thier level and beat you with experience.


 

yes we HAVE EXPERIENCE you are hardly out of nappies ,how stupid does that make you ? that you will stamp your foot and say we are all so wrong.


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## cam cap (Jun 22, 2007)

darwengray said:


> yes we HAVE EXPERIENCE you are hardly out of nappies ,how stupid does that make you ? that you will stamp your foot and say we are all so wrong.


 
lmao:2thumb:


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

I like this. Keep it going, we haven't had a good argument in a while lol


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

heehee me to i like to have a good old discussion its interesting to read about other peoples methods of filtration. its just a shame when people cant handle it and make it personal:bash:


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

i know its bloody ridiculus. People should realise that a lot of fish keeping is opinionated. But oh well, its good entertainment lol


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

yes no one has same ways of keeping fish everyone is different. i have also been trying them new filters a bit like UGF but in a canister type, you add your own media so i have used ceramics and filter wool seem to working well but haven't ran them long enough to give a verdict, maybe i should have named this the filtration thread :lol2:

wonder if i should start a thread on pond filters :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

one way that i look at things is that just because something newer or better comes along doesn't mean that the other stuff isn't any good. i mean that just because a new 2009 car model comes out doesn't mean that a 1966 mustang is a worthless excuse for a car. i'm not one to throw away my old tools just because new ones come out. u.g.f.'s have their place. remember that they were the standard for many, many years and worked quite well. but then i'm old school....:crazy:


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

I have said that they work well in smaller tanks

but in larger tanks they become a pain, and with larger tanks you have more fish, higher bioload, more ammonia, so need a larger filter. :no1:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

actually UGF work Better with high stocking due to good bacteria there create below the plate, that is one of the Reason that the LFS i was talking about used them for 40 years in his shop. and the new owner (who was going to rip all them nasty UGF out) has kept them in.

they is nothing wrong with internal/external filters, but my god it would have drove me mad having to clean them on all the tanks i had at one pont where UGF much easier quick hoover around with gravel cleaner and bang i'm done.

Clare


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

How did I miss this thread?! You all know you were dying for me to come in and argue too 

Can I just copy my post from the other thread? I thought it was pretty good:

"
Right, I know I said I didn't want to argue, and I *dont*, but this is what I think (although I really am having a hard time finding values of the SA in sponge media and a UG/gravel system.... its mostly about cermic and other new medias). 

I really think that an appropriatley sized internal filter (or an external) will have more surface area than a UG filter. Of course, you need to take into account the gravel. But, a tank with an internal does _also_ still have gravel. Yes, I know, there is less flow over it, but it still has it. 

An internal sponge has a very high SA (as I quoted in the previous thread), and a very high volume turnover rate, so surely it will be more effective at biological filtration?

Then, of course, there is the mechanical filtration. A UG effectively has no mechanical filtration. The gravel needs to siphoned regularly to get rid of it, and it will clog with debris. An internal filter will also clog with debris, but it easily removable, and can be cleaned almost back to new in a few seconds of squeezing it. Cleaning the gravel with a siphon takes a long time, and you cant get to the places under rocks and plants, and is very disturbing. 

Dot get me wrong, I think the practice of cleaning the gravel regularly is a good thing, but it can never be as clean and free of dirt as a (properly maintained) internal or external can. 

Surely you have to agree that the incidence of anaerobic breakdown in a tank with a UG is going to be substantially higher than one with a an internal? 

I think for any new set up, I would recommend an internal. For easiness of cleaning, it has to score highly. And the fact that it has a higher surface area (the figures I quoted in the other thread were: "gravel as a filter media has a (SSA) specific surface area) between 100 to 200 sq. meters per cubic meter. Plastic media 200 to 300, ceramic 250 to 350, matting 300 to 400, and foam (best) 400 to 500"). 

Also, if you take into account the fact that chemical filtration can easily be added, and the filter sponge can be easily swapped for sythetic media, as I have done with externals a lot (with a _huge_ SA, for example one type says it needs one 1-liter bag of Ceramic Rings for every 75 U.S. gallons (285 L) of aquarium water [ Aquarium Pharmaceuticals FilStar Ceramic Rings (Saltwater Aquarium Supplies > Filters > Replacement Cartridges > For Canisters ) ] ), and the amount of effort needed for mechanical filtration of both types, surely internal/external is better than a UG?

Also check out:
UGF and the Dealer "


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

mechanical filtration is for people that feed the tank instead of the fish. what's to trap really. as for an ugf, hey it's not a filter... the gravel is. gravel size is what is critcal. toss the chemical and mechanical filtration...... biological is the whole shebang. an ugf is in many ways akin to a wet/dry trickle, which is what i've used for years. hot filters are superb but so are ugf's. ugf's will not work if something isn't right like water flow and gravel size. aqlso if there is an extended power failure, you need to do water changes and re-seed them. i'm just saying that they are not evil. i can knock any filter canister or hot with a big wet/dry.....


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

but if you say clean the filter back to new you are getting rid of all the good bacteria basically starting the cycle all over again??
Clare


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> but if you say clean the filter back to new you are getting rid of all the good bacteria basically starting the cycle all over again??
> Clare


Who, me or habu? I dont think either of us said that did we? If we implied it, I'm sure we didn't mean to.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

AshMashMash said:


> and can be cleaned almost back to new in a few seconds of squeezing it.


maybe i read it wrong


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> maybe i read it wrong


kk, sorry, no you are right, it does sound like that. 

Ner, I meant you can get all the dirt out of it (as in, like it might look like when new), compared with a UGF, which you cant, IMO, get all the dirt out. The bacteria would all still be there, of course, as I mean squeezing it in tank water. : victory:


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## RussianTort55 (Jun 9, 2007)

Not had much of a read. 
UGFs are not even that good, from personal experiance i ripped them all out when i was working in a pet shop. They make the water look nasty and there is always that poo layer in the gravel. With the internals, its just a quick swish in some tank water and your ready to go.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

RussianTort55 said:


> Not had much of a read.
> UGFs are not even that good, from personal experiance i ripped them all out when i was working in a pet shop. They make the water look nasty and there is always that poo layer in the gravel. With the internals, its just a quick swish in some tank water and your ready to go.


:lol2:

explain the "makes the water look nasty" this is my comunity tank that i run on UGF


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you get all of the crap out of the gravel of an ugf by syphoning the gravel which is what you have to do with any aquarium. you don't want anerobic bacteria to grow in the gravel of any tank. sulphur compounds will build up. this is why an ugf needs even less maintenence than a typical tank setup. you alway need to clean the gravel. a sponge needs to be rinsed in the waste water after water changes..... it doesn't affect the bacteria by doing it this way. never clean filter media under the tap.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

love the wood bosshog. :no1:

but are those common plecs? :crazy:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

HABU said:


> you get all of the crap out of the gravel of an ugf by syphoning the gravel which is what you have to do with any aquarium. you don't want anerobic bacteria to grow in the gravel of any tank. sulphur compounds will build up. this is why an ugf needs even less maintenence than a typical tank setup. you alway need to clean the gravel. a sponge needs to be rinsed in the waste water after water changes..... it doesn't affect the bacteria by doing it this way. never clean filter media under the tap.


yup some people just dont understand UGF *sigh*


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

boots!.........:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

one thing for sure i know by this thread... ugf's are not for everybody.:crazy:


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

What happened to the fight? I was well excited and it's all just fizzed out. Boring! lol.

Anywho, it's all about fluidized bed filters anyway :whistling2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i used to run a fluidized...... sand filter(what i call them). they rock!!


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Esfa said:


> love the wood bosshog. :no1:
> 
> but are those common plecs? :crazy:


Starlight Bristlenose Pleco L183


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

HABU said:


> i used to run a fluidized...... sand filter(what i call them). they rock!!


 
natural filters cant beat them UGF, fluidized, just look how underground springs are when they come to the surface!!

Mike you want a fight.... mmmm..... Dovii's are UGLY heehee ....sorry couldnt help it


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> natural filters cant beat them UGF, fluidized, just look how underground springs are when they come to the surface!!
> 
> Mike you want a fight.... mmmm..... Dovii's are UGLY heehee ....sorry couldnt help it


 
dangerous comment lol. You come see my bad boys and say that.

your female guppies are ugly  hows that for a comeback lol


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i kept largemouth bass and bluegills in a tank years ago... it was really fun to go catch the fish you want to keep. bluegills have some amazing colors...


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> Starlight Bristlenose Pleco L183


:mf_dribble::mf_dribble:

i should be breeding them soon, if my mate gets round to sorting out his fishroom. :bash:


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Esfa said:


> :mf_dribble::mf_dribble:
> 
> i should be breeding them soon, if my mate gets round to sorting out his fishroom. :bash:


 
breed some decent plecs lol. the letter L and the numbers 0, 4 and 6 spring to mind for some reason :mf_dribble:


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## alpharoyals (Nov 21, 2007)

I would agree, ugf's are a lot easier to maintain, I personally didnt like mine so got an internal then an external which rocks but its a pain in the ass to clean :bash:

and I use sand and laterite now so wouldnt think a ugf would work would it?

I thought I would get the post back pn track and add a "personal experience"

*I am starting to get bored of these forums, I come on here to speak to people with the same interests as me and sit here most nights reading arguements. I can understand difference's in opinions but why do people have to start slagging each other and assume people are just trying to shoot you down when they are not?????*

Ahhhh! feel better now :beer8:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

alpharoyals said:


> *why do people have to start slagging each other and assume people are just trying to shoot you down when they are not?????*


Erm, not in this thread? It was just a debate, no personal slagging off at all (excusing darwengray's _constant_ moaning about mine and esfa's age...). 

See:



mike515 said:


> What happened to the fight? I was well excited and it's all just fizzed out. Boring! lol.


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