# unweaned animals



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

does anyone no hat the law is with selling unweaned animals like mammals i no you cnt sell unweaned parrots and birds apart from bop but what about racoons and the like


found a link

http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/you-kmc/kmc-formsindex/licences-animals/pet_licence_conditions.pdf

and this altho pet shops cant does that mean breeders can


http://moef.nic.in/downloads/public-information/rev-draft-pet-shop-rules.pdf


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Yes. It is illegal for anyone to sell unweaned animals, pet shop or private.


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

There are also restrictions upon the transport of unweaned animals and nursing mothers - can't remember exactly, but it has to be like transport to the vets for emergency treatment.

Not sure how the raccoon breeders get round these issues! Technically, new owners could be fostering the unweaned animals, then money change hands for sale once weaning is complete, but I don't know how the transport issues would be affected.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> Yes. It is illegal for anyone to sell unweaned animals, pet shop or private.


 
thank you i thought that its werd with the amount of people on here that are buying unweaned animals and not knowing its illegal


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

Loderuna said:


> There are also restrictions upon the transport of unweaned animals and nursing mothers - can't remember exactly, but it has to be like transport to the vets for emergency treatment.
> 
> Not sure how the raccoon breeders get round these issues! Technically, new owners could be fostering the unweaned animals, then money change hands for sale once weaning is complete, but I don't know how the transport issues would be affected.


thats if the breeders telling the truth as am sure alot are not and to be honist i would not be breeding an animal that cant rear its own young just so i can make money from the babys


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

adamntitch said:


> thank you i thought that its werd with the amount of people on here that are buying unweaned animals and not knowing its illegal


It is not going un-noticed.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Im glad this has been raised. Who do you report people breaking this law to? DEFRA?


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## Indicus (May 3, 2009)

I'm not attacking anyone here, but how come farmers sell unweaned animals, a local farm to us buys in lots of unweaned calves and raises them for beef, I know there unweaned as I sometimes help out there at weekends and one of my jobs is to feed them there milk. Also been to market and theres loads of unweaned piglets, calves and lambs. Or are farms class under different legislations.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Calves are rarely bought up by their dams anyway so would this affect the legality of selling unweaned farm animals?


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

saxon said:


> Calves are rarely bought up by their dams anyway so would this affect the legality of selling unweaned farm animals?


 
never thought about farm animals but could be diffrent due to as like you say most farm animlas are taken from there mums young so we can get milk and stuff so its the norm compared to taking young animals from there mums just to make better pets 

altho in parrots thats normal as well but you cant sell them unweaned but can rear them your self if your the breeder 

alot of mammal breeders seam to have started this taking babys away from there mums just to tame them and also say it helps a new owner bond better but it does not seam to be the case and they can be just as tame when parent reared 

am sure the breeder i know about of racoons says the parents do not rear there own young if that was the case i would not be breeding from these animals same as if it was a cat or dog 

and alot of the time when people have been taking the babys away to hand rear then the parents never learn how to and so dont rear there own main reason lots of parrot breeder let them rear a cluth every so offen just to keep them happy and rearing there own


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

It is a shame some breeders are stuck in the past.

Hand raised animals do NOT necessarily make better pets at all. 
It makes for an animal bonded to the person who raised it and thats it.

Hand raising creates poorly adjusted animals who often become problematic into maturity.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> It is a shame some breeders are stuck in the past.
> 
> Hand raised animals do NOT necessarily make better pets at all.
> It makes for an animal bonded to the person who raised it and thats it.
> ...


 
I so agree with this, I have handreared 100`s of kittens and puppies over the years and unless they are integrated with other animals of the same species before they are weaned they make awful pets as they have no bite inhibition and no respect for humans and quite often develop behavioural problems once adult. If things are this bad with domestic animals I can imagine they are even worse with exotics


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

thanks for replys it is something i have been looking into for a while also the best hunting hawks are parent reared where as imprinted hand reared end up as screamers most of the time 

bit like parrots as well most of the ones that are screamers or feather pluckers are due to them being hand reared some may not agree but thats the way it seams with me reading up on it as they start to miss there human friend if rehomed 

and shell yeah i can see that with hand reared puppys and kittens they dont know how to behave so to speak and dont have there parents to teach them same as kittens and other animals being weaned to early 

and i have heard of a few racoons (owners gave them last few bottles to wean) that ended up nightmares and did not like certain people or became aggressive


would be good if people on here that have bought unweaned exotics or other animals would speak up there are plenty i can think of (not saying you new it was right or wrong) but be good to see if they are more aggrsive as they grow or are the same as parent reared


also if anyone on here does come forward even tho most people will no they bought unweaned animals i dont want this to turn into a witch hunt cant bet most if not all that did buy unweaned mammals was due to the breeder saying it would be better "to get a bond" and as most people would you would trust the breeder


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Im glad this has been raised. Who do you report people breaking this law to? DEFRA?


Anyone?


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

adamntitch said:


> never thought about farm animals but could be diffrent due to as like you say most farm animlas are taken from there mums young so we can get milk and stuff so its the norm compared to taking young animals from there mums just to make better pets


I will never in my life understand why anyone would think it is normal to drink the milk of another animal once you have been weaned?

Its just seems a bit perverted...lol... give it to the calves cos that's what its made for!

also, on a spiritual level, it can hardly be good for a mum to have her baby taken from her, its so sad, or for the baby to be taken from its mum... poor babys!


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## carlycharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> also, on a spiritual level, it can hardly be good for a mum to have her baby taken from her, its so sad, or for the baby to be taken from its mum... poor babys!


 
Now that's a whole debate of its own :whistling2:




> Anyone?


Colin I would start by contacting your local Animal Welfare team within your local Council - numbers usually on their website. If they are not the people they should know who to contact. However I but would suspect they are only responsible for people within their area and you might need to contact the relevant council if reporting outside of your own area.

DEFRA also have a lot to do with creating & controlling animal laws, so you might get some response form them - but don't hold your breath unless you know exactly what department you need to speak too!!


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

ambyglam said:


> also, on a spiritual level, it can hardly be good for a mum to have her baby taken from her, its so sad, or for the baby to be taken from its mum... poor babys!


for that debate please see the currently running marmoset thread. and enjoy :lol2:


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

miss_ferret said:


> for that debate please see the currently running marmoset thread. and enjoy :lol2:


I'll get on that asap!


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

DONE... was I too honest!


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

ambyglam said:


> DONE... was I too honest!


put it this way........consider me officially warey of getting on your bad side :lol2:


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

miss_ferret said:


> put it this way........consider me officially warey of getting on your bad side :lol2:


lol...hahaha


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

carlycharlie said:


> Now that's a whole debate of its own :whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers Ken :2thumb:


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## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

I wonder about the taking of babies to hand rear from a slightly different view.

Under the new animal welfare act are you breaking the law ?.

You are stopping the parents from performing a natural instinct / behaviour The new act states the animals must be allowed to perform natural behaviour ( or something to that affect ).

If you pull a baby and it dies have you made this animal suffer and unduly caused its death ?.

Have you stopped the baby from performing a natural behaviour ie suckling from mum, learning behaviours / boundries etc from the parents.

In some cases the parents grieve for their babies. Are you causing undue suffering to the parents and therefore being cruel to the animals.

Just a thought


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

kodakira said:


> I wonder about the taking of babies to hand rear from a slightly different view.
> 
> Under the new animal welfare act are you breaking the law ?.
> 
> ...


 

Excellent post


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

kodakira said:


> I wonder about the taking of babies to hand rear from a slightly different view.
> 
> Under the new animal welfare act are you breaking the law ?.
> 
> ...


Thats right Neil! It causes unnecessary suffering to the mother (& father in some species), & to the offspring. It is only done purely for selfish reasons, & of course for obtaining more money! :devil:


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## fantapants (Jan 4, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Excellent post





Zoo-Man said:


> Thats right Neil! It causes unnecessary suffering to the mother (& father in some species), & to the offspring. It is only done purely for selfish reasons, & of course for obtaining more money! :devil:


 

I come to this thread as somebody that bought an unweaned animal. I had NO idea i was breaking the law. When i bought Atuki i knew that he was bottle fed and was gratefull for the chance to have him as i have waited so long. I *think* that he was with his parents for a short while, but i dont know the reasons why he was then bottlefed........it could have ben rejection by his mum or it could have been to make him tamer with humans. I am gutted that i didnt ask further questions..........i just asumed that alot of baby racoons were rejected by their parents. I was told i could wait until he was weaned or if i had experience bottle feeding i could take him earlier. I chose the earlier option as it meant i could give him 1-1 attention that (i assume) he wasnt getting at the breeders. Breeders tend to have more than one animal for sale.......so i went with taking him earlier. I dont regret it but if i was offered the chance now i would say no as i know its ilegal.

Either way, Atuki is a sweet heart and i am glad i have him.


EDIT:- i have had ALOT of issues weaning atuki, it still goes on.....unlike his brother Norman, he has consistantly refused to lap milk/yoghurt and has skipped straight to chewing food.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fantapants said:


> I come to this thread as somebody that bought an unweaned animal. I had NO idea i was breaking the law. When i bought Atuki i knew that he was bottle fed and was gratefull for the chance to have him as i have waited so long. I *think* that he was with his parents for a short while, but i dont know the reasons why he was then bottlefed........it could have ben rejection by his mum or it could have been to make him tamer with humans. I am gutted that i didnt ask further questions..........i just asumed that alot of baby racoons were rejected by their parents. I was told i could wait until he was weaned or if i had experience bottle feeding i could take him earlier. I chose the earlier option as it meant i could give him 1-1 attention that (i assume) he wasnt getting at the breeders. Breeders tend to have more than one animal for sale.......so i went with taking him earlier. I dont regret it but if i was offered the chance now i would say no as i know its ilegal.
> 
> Either way, Atuki is a sweet heart and i am glad i have him.
> 
> ...


You havent broken the law hun (as far as I know), the 'breeder' has!


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

adamntitch said:


> thanks for replys it is something i have been looking into for a while also the best hunting hawks are parent reared where as imprinted hand reared end up as screamers most of the time


In all fairness, imprinting birds of prey is worlds apart from hand rearing mammals, both on paper and in practice.


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## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

Shame you dont show as much enthusiasm at as mentioned before,the hundreds of thousands of farm animals,cows artificially inseminated,give birth,then calf took away within days.The cries of those cows and calves goes on for hours and days.Then calves are put into big sheds and often die of pneumonia.But of course you all want your pint of milk in the morning.The farming trade is probably the most cruel,but as long as the supermarket shelves are full,what the heck.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

christ your on a role today arnt you? first primate keeping, now farming, anything else? the practice your refering to is that lovely offshoot of the dairy buisness: the veal trade, its horrible and its cruel, therefore i dont eat veal. or foir gras or battary chicken either for that matter. farming these days is a buisness and welfare standards are higher in this country than in the rest of the europe, if not most of the world, make of that what you will. i do however have a question for you: are you a vegetarian/vegan? do you eat fish? drink milk?


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

Traditional rearing of calves for veal is illegal in the UK and has been for quite a few years now.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

a lot of places import it though which is why avoid it


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

fantapants said:


> I come to this thread as somebody that bought an unweaned animal. I had NO idea i was breaking the law. When i bought Atuki i knew that he was bottle fed and was gratefull for the chance to have him as i have waited so long. I *think* that he was with his parents for a short while, but i dont know the reasons why he was then bottlefed........it could have ben rejection by his mum or it could have been to make him tamer with humans. I am gutted that i didnt ask further questions..........i just asumed that alot of baby racoons were rejected by their parents. I was told i could wait until he was weaned or if i had experience bottle feeding i could take him earlier. I chose the earlier option as it meant i could give him 1-1 attention that (i assume) he wasnt getting at the breeders. Breeders tend to have more than one animal for sale.......so i went with taking him earlier. I dont regret it but if i was offered the chance now i would say no as i know its ilegal.
> 
> Either way, Atuki is a sweet heart and i am glad i have him.
> 
> ...


 

Ali none of this is aimed at you, you are doing a fab job with Atuki. I cant believe the little man wont wean yet, maybe its time for some tough love. I know they arent the same but with handreared kittens and puppies that wont wean I reduce the amount of milk they get each feed which make them hungry and more inclined to eat solids. Maybe its worth a try


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## fantapants (Jan 4, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Ali none of this is aimed at you, you are doing a fab job with Atuki. I cant believe the little man wont wean yet, maybe its time for some tough love. I know they arent the same but with handreared kittens and puppies that wont wean I reduce the amount of milk they get each feed which make them hungry and more inclined to eat solids. Maybe its worth a try


 
He is eating a few bits. Barry made him scrambled egg and he had a few nibbles on that, also nibbled on a piece of cheese. He also likes honey nut loops and just about any sweet food he can swipe off the baby when she isnt looking. Savory stuff he is terrible at eating. He doesnt like veg, wont eat chicken, crab, tuna, salmon, steak, cat food or dog food. He wont eat any yoghurt either.

He is having 4 oz of milk 4 times a day, he is still looking for more after each feed and i make sure i offer him a choice of food through the day. I put a big ceramic water bowl down for him and he laps water so i know he can do it..........Oh and i know he washed his food in the water too as i had to clean it out. He is just a slow starter i think.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I know this is an old post, but google brings it up top of the list when I search for info.

Although my query is related to domestic puppies. Does anyone know where the legal information is, I can't find it on Defra. Unless it has changed since this post. It doesn't seem to be illegal to sell unweaned animals, it says that pet shops shouldn't and there is legislation in place for transportation. Can't find anything about the sale of them from private keepers etc. Other than the new act of allowing them to display normal behaviours, but if a mother rejects them, I still thought you couldn't sell until they were on solids.


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