# Playing Devils' Advocate!



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Well l have had a go at regulative bodies, apathy and the ignorant, who else is there?


Well there are these guys, or at least some of them.


This is what we are up against.


What are your views on the anti’s – opposition, are they right or wrong?


I am hard fast against them, l am after all a pro keeper like you all, but do they have a point in their arguments?


Should we be keeping animals?


Is it right that their extreme factions seek to end our hobby, our industry our beliefs, our passions?


Or do we as pro keepers deserve to keep our animals?


Tell me how you feel.​
Animal Rights Resources 

(Annual Income) ​
In the UK there are in excess of 300 organisations that are either overtly or covertly Animal Rights orientated and opposed to the pet industry, and to a greater or lesser extent pet keeping. The ten most proactive anti pet trade organisations (and subsidiaries) are shown below. Additionally these organisations employ between them at least 7 political lobbyists, and have heavy weight political supporters.​
Last accounts filed​
Advocates for Animals 31 Dec 2005, £249,560
Animal Aid 31 Dec 2005, £915,102
Born Free Foundation* 31 Mar 2006, £2,084,319
Captive Animals Protection Society 31 Dec 2005, £104,649
Captive Animals' Protection Trust* 31 Oct 2005, £155,074
Environmental Investigation Agency 31 Dec 2005, £962,511
International Fund for Animal Welfare 30 Jun 2005, £21,907,473
Political Animal Lobby 30 Jun 2005, £46,536** 
IFAW Charitable Trust* 30 Jun 2005, £4,805,091
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals 31 Jul 2005, £1,565,443
Royal Society for the Protection of Birds* 31 Mar 2006, £75,138,000
Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals* 31 Dec 2005, £99,959,000
World Society for the Protection of Animals* 31 Dec 2005, £9,620,000​
Annual Income for Organisations Opposed to the Pet Industry
Total charitable income: £191,761,484
Total non-charitable income: £ 25,704,738
Total income: £217,466,200​
Subsidiaries are shown indented organisations* hold charitable status. 
**Cash at bank, no income shown for 2005 and 2004 (monies not included in total income for groups)

RSPCA​Advocates For Animals
Animal Aid [AA]
Born Free Foundation
Captive Animals Protection Society [CAPS]
Captive Animals Protection Trust [CAPT]
Environmental Investigation Agency [EIA]
International Fund For Animal Welfare [IFAW]
IFAW Charitable Trust
Political Animal Lobby [PAL]
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals [PETA]
Royal Society for the Protection of Birds [RSPB]
World Society for the Protection of Animals [WSPA]

Also how much do you think we have as a fighting capital??

Are they an enemy worthy of respect?

Are they extreme?

Rory Matier 
Pro Keepers Lobby​​


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

If you want blatant, straight talking here Rory...

I DO agree with them on some point and DO agree that there are people that should not be keeping snakes.


People that have more animals than they have the room for should not have so many.

People that have animals and intend to go to college or University within a few years should not be keeping them.

People that have to come on here and ask basic questions should not be keeping the animals until they know the answers to most of the questions they are asking.

In short, keeping animals like snakes is a 20 year + commitment and if you do not know even the basics of what you are doing beforehand then you should not have that animal in your care.

To that extent the antis are right.

To the extent of should anybody in the country be keeping animals... then no... they are wrong.


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## easty (May 4, 2007)

its a strange one, i spose some points the "antis" make are reasonable and others are just blaitantly stupid.

I personaly do not agree with the keeping of primates, we might be able to give them the right phisical conditions and the rightr food but we cannot provide them witht the social conditions they should be living in. On the other hand i dont disagree with the keeping of Reptiles as i think with research we can understand what they need and how they should be care dfor properly.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

There are exceptions to every rule and I also beleive that ons ome scores, the "antis" are correct.

Little Joe aged 18 down the street should not be allowed to go and buy a snake to show off to his mates without having he correct knowledge and more importantly experience to care for it in a correct manner.

That I agree with - not everyone is suited to owning snakes and even those witht he space, money and knowledge may not have the necessary experienceand passion to keep them to thier best possible level.

on the same note average Joe ownt he street can go out and pay a shed load of cash for a staffordshire bull terrier or a rotttweiler and not one person bats an eyelid. These animals have the instinct nad hte ability to cause more damage in a short space of time to a human yet they go unnoticed by the antis and such. They require a certain level of care that some would argue is mor eof an undertaking than that of keeping a snake yet I see young lads witht hem on every corner round here. 

The antis have got the right ideas on some things but they apply them to the wrong group of keepers IMO.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*The Facts are simple...*

.......that in many respects l can see from their point of view. I do try and seperate their genuine arguments from their flights of fancy. They tend to have more flights of fancy when it comes down to this industry, but l do support many of their other issues and projects and l think it would take a liar to say that they do not believe in at least one of their causes, - we are human after all.

The dog scenario Brit raises is a truism and l do believe that something should be done to combat this.

I support pro primate keeping, but at times am bloody annoyed at the way people think its perfectly acceptable to keep monkeys in an oversized parrot or hamster cage and think this is okay.

We vet primate purchasers as much as we vet our keepers whom are selling, and l find that even at times, l think it would be best if primates were heavily regulated as to how and who could buy what.

The fact that we have a highly intelligent and social animal being confined to an artificial environment is always going to be a political hotbed. I am only recently becoming involved in the keeping of reptiles, and l still constantly ask myself the biggie 'should we keep?'

The age old argument of mine in this forum and others over the years with any captive bred and kept species is that - yes of course we should, but we must go out of our way to ensure that everything is built around the animals comfort and stimulation.

Primates seemingly attract the very dregs of society at times, because they appear to be a must have species - why?

TSKA is constantly slated for vetting - Why?

The amount of numpties out there are endless, and they all want to compete for some status symbol with their mates - Why?

So the very fact that the antis are opposing the keeping of primates is at times quite justifiable. But through the correct education of buyers to specific species it can be rectified.

The same argument is used in the main to many reptile species, but l am not a walking lunatic and will not venture into grounds that l know very little about. But as many keepers as there are out there we have ten times as many excellent keepers.

The biggest problems with keepers of today is they suffer from my old friend apathy and do not realise that their lack of communications and response means that the antis think they are worthless keepers - are they right?

Primate keepers keep their heads in the sand and refuse to show their heads above the parapet, in the eyes of the anti this makes them as guilty as sin.

The end result is this, there are simply not enough suitable regulations on board to prevent those from actually keeping animals and no way near enough to further prevent the actual purchase of many species.

all species are simply and sadly in the eyes of many disposable, and not respected. Britain is infamous for bartering and exchange of species, and down right greed, money, money, money makes the world go around, but at what cost to many species who are caught up in this exchange of species pokemon?

Those that oppose have in many cases my respect as an adversary, they are far better financed, better armed, legally backed, receive the vote of empathy from a public whom in many cases are simply uneducated, and go unchallenged on a regular basis.

Keepers who complain bitterly about them should wake up and smell the coffee, for as much as you complain and do nothing, they increase in power - for its your fuelled apathy that they can then charge up and attack us with.

So fine, be apathetic, but just remember you are are aiding those whom are attacking what they think is ignorance.

Those whom deny genuine keepers the rights to keep are and may as well start plying the antis with funds, for you can not seem to see that by doing nothing you are helping them defeat us.

Financially as said they are better armed, and they could outflank us very quickly, if it came down to a huge monetary issue.

Should we just stop and agree with them?

No, but we should start to make them aware that as keepers we do care.

Rory
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

is it true or not that this is the ONLY site this has been brought up on in detail..most ive spoke to who haven't heard of this and ive had to point it out to them and i think the biggest problem is lack of advertising...there are loads of sites who haven't heard of it including the bigger more established sites.
i think most of it is lack of information...if im honest i find it very confusing..you can't really accuse apathy if this is the only site thats actually discussed in detail and most are misinformed.
you can agree to certain extent but i also think we are our own worst enemies at times with arguements because that what they want..things to get heated and disagreements.
ive wrote on most the petitions..informed everyone i know..it has got to be disheartening but some ive spoke to feel outsiders in their own hobby because they aren't as well informed so maybe if the information was freely given out on a website instead of being hush hush at times and the petshops have the information as thats the main source of contact for most people who do not have the internet and it affects all pet keepers because if they stop reps it won't be long until rodents,fish,birds and others are under scrunity so everyone needs to unite as one voice.
i see rorys sig....150 signatures wheras ive just seen a thread thats 2500 pages +....goes to show really but Rory i really admire what you and the PKL team are doing and please don't think im picking as im not..keep up the good work.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

hey hon..

it has been on livefoods yes, has been for the last 18 months or so, but no-one takes much notice no. chris newman has been posting politcally on LF for some time.. as have a few others.

i don't know about captive bred, dns and so on.. tbh the main three are Livefood, RFUK and CB.. so its on two of the main three to be sure.

LF was asked about a political forum and at the time declined, t-bo is so far the only one with the guts to allow one to run !!

we keep saying, and said it sunday too.. retail is where we need to be at.. thats were the people really go.. not just forums..

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*You are correct*

Hi Rank, 

You are right, there is way too little information out there about lots of issues and l think that is where l become frustrated.

RFUK with this forum section is at least a step in the right direction.

Nerys is now working political issues with some pressure into Livefood.

FOCAS is showing elements and yes it is still confusing.

Some other sites show a small smattering of topic issues.

I am not surprised that keepers are finding it hard, and we are not helping in many cases ease their minds with our gloomy dealings but it has to be dealt with and it has to be done. I can make no appology for many of our entries.

PKL is still being built but as said there are just so many topics, issues and potential campaigns out there, there is not enough time, energy and at times motivation to inspire further.

I thank everyone for all the work they are doing because at this present time, whether someone spends ten minutes discussing something or ten hours working for their hobby it is still very much a way forwards.

What PKl is trying to achieve is to build up a support team with a whole network that can unite as one and speak as one. And many of my posts and threads are purely to allow people to really see what is going on, and not just sit back.

We have five main issues of campaign, four we have covered in some details but the fifth we have not even begun to touch base with.

To many it will be seen as interpreted that we are specifically designing and creating issues that look and appear to be tearing the hobby, society's, keepers and industry down, and it isn't, it is purely designed to endeavour to wake people up to the ever present threat.

The threats we face are now called AIRCO :

Apathy, Ignorance, Regulation, Corruption, Opposition.

These are the five biggies in our books and none of them will make us many friends, but we do believe they should be covered so that keepers may see what is happening and together if we work at it, slowly and surely we will [hopefully] succeed.

Thanks for writing

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

thank you Nerys and Rory for your replies..i usually find it increasingly hard to piece together sentences to make it to the point and im not politically up to date so thank you both understanding my rambling that sort of sums up what i think
if any information needs to be done for shops id be happy to cover my local area even though there is not many in warwickshire area but ill try my best


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

cheers me dear... we will count you in for sure 

N


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## easty (May 4, 2007)

Right, Bear with me.

As i am fairly new to reptile keeping, the politics are brand new to me, i started using this forum as a form of research, as i think everybody does. Now that i am digging a little deeper into the hobby and am trying to understand the ins and outs of the politics i feel i need something a bit easier to understand, some of these very informative threads are a little bit like trying to research HNC maths using a PHD book, if you see what im saying? I think the main parts of the politics need to be outlined in a very sympathetic way, not in an "agressive" manner, what i mean by that is less use of the provocative pictures/ banners, although they get the point across very quickly a lot of people will find these, offensive isnt the word to use but something along those lines. So basicly something a little more U rated rather than PG if you know what i mean. i think that way you are giving the people the choice to educate themselves rather than think they are part of an "anti animal welfare" group (i know PKL stand for the opposite of that but sometimes thats the point that comes across, and i mean NO offence by that statement) 

I am happy and eager to do what i can to help protect our hobby, but i dont know enough to make a huge difference, i think a lot of people feel like me. if there is somewhere to get impartial information from please let me know. Cheers n i hope my post isnt too gobldygook n hope you understand what i tryed to say.


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