# A Conversation on Condensation!



## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

One for the purists here. Everytime I mention my fascination with all of the elements of Life Support within an enclosure the people closest to me pat me on the head in an understanding manner and then tell me to shut the :censor: up! However I have long contemplated the enigma of condensation and have some fairly 'mind bamboozling' things to say on the subject that, I think, could change the way you think about all things wet. Once I've said my piece, if noone says anything and my beloved topic remains barren of replies I will do what they tell me to and keep quiet.
The first thing to say is this. The presence of condensation in a tank can often be a sign that your humidity is too low! :yeahright: That one needs some sort of reaction from you to explain it. Secondly if you have a highly humid terrarium with a hide or burrow or another container within it, the humidity in that area will almost certainly be lower than the rest of the terrarium. Again I don't want to waste masses of time explaining how I have arrived at these universe altering observations unless you are interested so let me know your opinions and we can talk. Importantly if either or both of these statements are true it points to why losses occur in what appears to be perfectly maintained habitats. So do I put up or shut up?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

its good point and one that needs to be explored.

I stated openly in my last book that a lack of hydration is not only a primary cause of MBD but of impaction.

The trick is to provide the correct amount of water to each species as IT has need in the way that suits IT best.

Moving away from nasty resins and plastics and towards natural stone and full bioactivity should help maintain humidity levels going forward and provide a method of drinking/assimilating hydration that is more natural and more effective.

There of course is a difference between accessible hydration via the correct humidity and stale condensation which is to be avoided at all costs.

good point!

john


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

Condensation forms on any surface which is of a lower temperature than the air which surrounds it. Ironically this is the main principle of a dehumidifier. You pass air over a refrigerated plate and the moisture in the air condenses on the cold surface and drips into a tray. So where there is a cooler surface in a terrarium the moisture in the air will condense on it. Unfortunately when you look at a standard terrarium this cooler surface is almost always the front. The back is insulated against the wall and the top is always warmer because of the heating in the tank. This leaves ends and front, normally exactly the parts of the unit you are looking at the animal through. Very inconvenient. But more importantly the presence of condensation means humidity has been removed from the air, which means that, potentially, your air borne humidity is too low.


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## davebehave (Aug 10, 2006)

Subscribed as interest is peaking .... : victory:


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

A while ago something happened to one of our commercial Leaf Cutting Ant set up's which took ages for me to work out the cause. The entire display case was sitting at a perfect 85% humidity and within that display case was a nest tank made of glass. This housed the colony of ants which over a period of around 6 months gradually declined and finally died despite constant adjusting of the temperature, humidity, food types etc etc on offer. What we didn't do, until too late, was to check the humidity within the nest tank. It seemed there was no point since the humidity surrounding the nest tank was perfect. Infact the humidity inside the nest tank was around 50%, too low for Leaf Cutters. How could this be? It did not make sense until I started to think through the possible causes. The temperature inside the nest tank, as a result of the activity of the ants within, would be very slightly higher than the rest of the surrounding display tank. The consequence of this was that the glass of the nest tank was slightly cooler that the air inside the nest. This caused condensation to form on the inside of the nest, a fact that seemed to suggest to everyone that the humidity was really good when in fact all of the airborne humidity that was entering the nest tank was being condensed on the side. The result was dry air in the nest tank, the very location within the display that we were trying to keep very humid! This same dynamic would apply to any hide or shelter you put in your terrarium to provide cover for your animals. If the presence of a spider or an amphibian in a burrow or a crevice within your display causes even a fraction of a temperature rise compared to the rest of the tank then this differential will cause that particular space to become dryer than the rest of the habitat. If this is the most attractive or most secure hide for a shy animal then the animal has to make a choice, to remain hidden in an area which is not ideal in terms of life support parameters or to expose itself out in the open. Normally they will remain wedged in their hide. I think this is potentially very interesting.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

*Ventillation*

To complete the description of the problem , and before discussing possible solutions, this problem is only a part of the overall difficulty when trying to contain all of the elements of Life Support within a relatively small space. What about the problem of ventilation, a traditional remedy for condensation. When you consider what ventilation is actually doing, things get less clear. Efficient ventilation involves the movement of fresh air into an area and the loss of undesirable air out. Unfortunately along with your air you are also losing temperature, humidity and 'ambience' the scents and smells of the animals environment. Worse, you are replacing this air, which your equipment (heaters, humidifiers etc) has so efficiently 'treated', with untreated air from outwith the enclosure. If you have a flow of fresh air through your enclosure, ticking the 'ventilation' box, you are almost certainly exposing your animal to unplanned temperature gradients and humidity gradients. It does not make sense to me to design a life support system based on probes that read these parameters in a particular location, giving the impression that all is well, and in fact the animal could be chilled or overheated, desiccated or over hydrated, all depending on the air qualities OUTSIDE your viv and the position within the enclosure that your animal happens to be sitting. Life in small places is complicated enough without these additional problems and I put it to you that there needs to be a rethink and a redesign of not only the way equipment operates within these housing receptacles but also of the receptacles themselves.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

its a common misconception that condensation requires high humidity, you can get condensation with 10% humidity if the temperature difference is big enough

my CRB enclosure never drops below 80% humidity, but it has no condensation on the front at all, but that's down to the fact the room is kept ~24C, and the enclosure is made entirely of plastics (PVCX and Acrylic), there is no (significant) temperature drop/cold surface to cause it to form;

I guess you have probably seen the Atta sp nest which was filled with concrete and dug out? gives a good insight into how artificial nests could be constructed in captivity to maintain humidity and temperature, and its quite a long way from how most Atta are kept

would be interesting to know how the temps and humidity, and probably the shape of a wild atta sp nest changes during the year/seasons, i think ant nests are far more tightly regulated/managed and fluid than we imagine them to be or currently emulate

I have had the most success with ant colonies when they have been allowed to construct their own nests in soil/sand, including acromymerix, atta, pachycondyla, pheidologeton, and some others, all high humidity species which don't seem to do well at all in acrylic/ytong/etc nests or small spaces (apart from pachycondyla), even the largest atta nests I have seen in zoo's are miniscule compared to their wild counterparts, I'm starting to wonder if its even physically possibly to raise an atta colony to full maturity without dedicating a vast amount of resources and space to it - the biggest I have seen was kept in 2 X ~800L plastic boxes filled with soil/sand and kept inside a heated/humidified greenhouse, but i don't think even that lasted more than 5 years


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

As tempting as it is I am keen not to discuss one type of animal, especially Ants since I am obsessed with them; rather Life Support and the specific line I am following through this series of observations. So basically, so far, I have suggested that there is a problem across the board. That, firstly, condensation is a far more insidious problem that simply unsightly and bad for your animals to be in contact with, and, secondly, that untreated air, entering your habitat via whatever ventilation you have in place, will constantly work in opposition to your carefully setup life support parameters. I know its a dry subject but the more I consider this the more I feel its important. I was hoping for some feedback before I suggest a new design for vivariums and terrariums based on these findings.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

No, I'm going to soldier on, even in the light of apathy about this most interesting of topics. 
Sooooo..... we have gotten to the point of establishing that introducing untreated air into the enclosure via ventilation is undesirable. Surely a better design for an exotic animal enclosure would be to position the equipment for treating the air at the point where the air is entering the enclosure. If you have an air vent along the bottom at the front and another at the top, similar to the Euro style vivs, then we should humidify and heat the air at the lower vent so as it passes through the vivarium to the top vent it will not compromise the conditions within the tank. I will spend some time doing a drawing of this new design, I think this could be very attractive on a number of levels. Check back soon.


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

Wow very interesting indeed. I had always just assumed if there was condensation it was a good sign for humidity. So how would you suggest to sort this problem out without ventilation, without adjusting the outside temperature of the room? Would the heaters you get for the front glass be the answer? I've never used those before.


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## Punchfish (Jun 13, 2008)

Ah just saw your answer before my post. Look forward to seeing it.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

the important point is that you shouldn't assume the humidity is correct based on condensation, condensation does not indicate humidity level, it doesn't mean that its high or low, so you need to use a hygrometer to check the levels as appropriate

a note also about burrows being lower humidity, this is not always the case, infact in my Sav enclosure it is the opposite, burrows are ~90%, ambient above ground is ~60%; for eg.

it all depends on the setup, and each area needs to be checked and adjusted as appropriate, as they say...assumption is the mother of all...



having a hard time reading your posts acromyrmexbob, some paragraphs/new lines would help...coz I think I must be missing your point a bit...


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

CloudForest said:


> a note also about burrows being lower humidity, this is not always the case, infact in my Sav enclosure it is the opposite, burrows are ~90%, ambient above ground is ~60%; for eg.
> 
> having a hard time reading your posts acromyrmexbob, some paragraphs/new lines would help...coz I think I must be missing your point a bit...


 I would say that my rule regarding humidity in smaller occupied spaces holds when the walls of the burrow are impervious to moisture, ie stone, plastic or glass which allows condensation to form. 
When the walls are made of soil or some other absorbent material that would act as a reservoir for moisture, the humidity rule will act in reverse. As the air temperature in the burrow increases, so the evaporation of water held in the surrounding substrate will cause the humidity to increase.

Sorry about the confusing way my posts are coming across. I am trying to explain what I think is an important point and I forget to include gaps for breath! I will edit from now on.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

*A quick diagram*

So here's what I have so far. The diagram below illustrates a simple, new design for countering the problems we have been talking about.
Warm air exits the vivarium from the top vent. This draws air in through hole at lower front, labelled 1. 
Air is untreated but cannot enter the vivarium until it travels along the front chamber which reaches all the way along the front, below the sliding doors. On the bottom of this air tunnel is the heating, 2. This can be a narrow heatmat or a heatmat rolled into a tube. 
Also in this tunnel is a water filled receptacle, 3, which is also heated by the heater. As air passes through this chamber it is both heated and humidified.
It then passes out of the tunnel through vent at 4 into the main vivarium. This means that the air in the vivarium is treated before entering the space occupied by the animal. 
For arid occupants the water area can be greatly reduced. For amphibs this could be a small humidifier. 
The front glass will not attract condensation because the heating in this setup is directly below the front glass so it will always be clear of moisture. 
What do you think?


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

be interesting to see one of these in action


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

acromyrmexbob said:


> So here's what I have so far. The diagram below illustrates a simple, new design for countering the problems we have been talking about.
> *Warm air exits the vivarium from the top vent. This draws air in through hole at lower front, labelled 1.*
> Air is untreated but cannot enter the vivarium until it travels along the front chamber which reaches all the way along the front, below the sliding doors. On the bottom of this air tunnel is the heating, 2. This can be a narrow heatmat or a heatmat rolled into a tube.
> Also in this tunnel is a water filled receptacle, 3, which is also heated by the heater. As air passes through this chamber it is both heated and humidified.
> ...


with the heating encased in this confined area, what would be the measure to prevent heat being lost through this vent too. a low rpm fan maybe or do you feel this is not an issue. while more info on environmental stability in the enclosure will help I wonder if it will use more running energy to keep the chamber at the set temperature, or possibly higher than the habitats needs, due to this/my poser.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

s6t6nic6l said:


> with the heating encased in this confined area, what would be the measure to prevent heat being lost through this vent too. a low rpm fan maybe or do you feel this is not an issue. while more info on environmental stability in the enclosure will help I wonder if it will use more running energy to keep the chamber at the set temperature, or possibly higher than the habitats needs, due to this/my poser.


The addition of a small fan would be an elegant feature, I think this unit needs to be built and tested. Personally I think the movement of air passively through the unit would be enough though. 
Because you are in control of all the parameters irrespective of what quality the air entering from outside is, once you have established the correct humidity and temperature there should be little variation unless you adjust it yourself. 
The more I consider this the more I am tempted to make one. But before that I think this is a great opportunity for us all to collaborate on a new design. Perhaps an RFUK style :no1:Viv!


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

using glass you wont get rid of condensation entirely, unless you heat all of the glass (or the whole room), glass is a terrible conductor of thermal energy, so the heater at the bottom wont do much for the glass further up - potentially if you where to put vents all the way along the bottom of the glass, so that warm air could travel up it to the top of the enclosure, it might just about keep it free from condensation, but i'm not sure how well it would do the job really, air flow is diffifult to predict - using plastic would help, but acrylic tends to bend even tho it is better in terms of condensation, polycarb doesn't bend, but its not quite so good with condensation and scratches to hell

also if the air entering the enclosure at the bottom is warmer than the air inside the enclosure, it will simply rise to the top and straight out of the vent, whether or not it will keep the whole of the enclosure humid is a big question in my mind, I recon that parts of it will form "bubbles" of cooler drier air (i'm thinking at the back-bottom of the enclosure probably), and I don't think it will do much to help humidify any hides you have in the bottom of the enclosure

my CRB setup is quite similar in design, except the water is not heated, and there is much less ventilation; but there are vents just above the water tray on the bottom left (a single row of 8 x 1mm holes) and there are vents on the top right of the enclosure (same number) above the UTH - but, imo what really helps keep humidity stable, within a few % of 80 without much effort on my part at all (spraying less than once a month), is the bioactive substrate.

nature tends to do things far better than humans can, I really think bioactive is the way forward for reptile (and invert) keeping, ecosystems are complex and intricately balanced, far more so than we can hope to achieve with sterile enclosure designs....in scientific research a sterile design is important, because knowing all the variables is difficult enough even then; but eventually i think purely bioactive is where the hobby and professional setups will end up...maybe it will take years or decades to reach that point, but i really do think it will happen, in my experience it is a more successful way of setting up captive enviroments


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

acromyrmexbob said:


> The addition of a small fan would be an elegant feature, I think this unit needs to be built and tested. Personally I think the movement of air passively through the unit would be enough though.
> Because you are in control of all the parameters irrespective of what quality the air entering from outside is, once you have established the correct humidity and temperature there should be little variation unless you adjust it yourself.
> The more I consider this the more I am tempted to make one. But before that I think *this is a great opportunity for us all to collaborate on a new design*. Perhaps an RFUK style :no1:Viv!


thanks for raising a thought provoking topic!!

what material will the chamber be constructed from?

chamber maintenance: how will this be achieved?

size of enclosure this method will work up to, esp' when an arboreal unit is projected?

if an enclosure is 60w x 60h x 40d in cm's what % of the unit height will the chamber take up when the substrate level is taken into account and door size? the sketch at the mo just shows the chamber using all the lower part beneath the doors and/or does the chamber have to be set at an exact volume size to function correctly regards to airflow being tunnelled through to reach the criteria needed?


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## paul23 (May 12, 2011)

Heating the water is a bad idea if you passing air across it. You will get bacteria growth in the water and that could be become airborne, which could be fatal to the animal(s). In the air conditioning industry, we would chemically treat the water to prevent this, but obviously that is not a viable solution here. 

This is something that is difficult to achieve because generally you would want a temperature gradient, but that would also give you a humidity gradient.

In your work in progress you have posted, the humidity will be higher at the bottom than the top and you would still get condensation on the glass if the room temperature was lower than the dew point of your air at point 4. 

For example, if you had an empty vivarium with just a basking rock in. The hot side temperature of 30ºC and cool side of 22ºC and no airflow. The R.h would be at different levels throughout the viv, if it is 50% R.h at the hot side, then it would be 78% at the cool end, there's not a lot you can do about it. You can't put moisture in only one side. 

To stop the condensate in hides, what I would do is heat the actual hide (the plastic or rock or whatever) to just above the dew temperature, then you won't get condensation.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

paul23 said:


> Heating the water is a bad idea if you passing air across it. You will get bacteria growth in the water and that could be become airborne, which could be fatal to the animal(s). In the air conditioning industry, we would chemically treat the water to prevent this, but obviously that is not a viable solution here.
> 
> This is something that is difficult to achieve because generally you would want a temperature gradient, but that would also give you a humidity gradient.
> 
> ...


I was going to pick out bits to comment on but I like it all!!!!:no1:
Don't agree with it all but I like it!

Sounds like you are in the air conditioning industry which makes you an expert on air! Can you tell me where the 78% humidity figure comes from. Is there a calculation that can be used to work out R.H. based on temperature etc? 

The bacteria point you made. In many applications where animals are kept air is passed over water. I am thinking the cooling fans in the hood of a Marine tank are not necessarily separated from the water. The little misting devices that oscillate at a certain frequency and atomise the water produces a very fine mist. This is surely also a dangerous method by the same rule. If not then the solution is not to pass air over water but to create a separate chamber for the humidity to be produced. 

I love your point about temperature and humidity gradients. So the answer would be to separate the two as above. The heat is air based, the humidity is atomized 'mist'. The two mix in the vivarium. The atomizer is set at whatever the desired level of humidity is to be.

I think the entry point for the water vapour could be played with. If we are separating the two then the vapour can enter at another point or at various points. The owner could set up a tubular vent system when first setting up the viv and position vents at strategic positions. A format can be suggested in the instructions for ideal placement but ultimately it will be up to the keeper.

Condensation in hides is an insidious problem and previously I do not think it had been considered to this depth. I think heating them is impractical. The easiest solution is to ensure that all hides have and entrance and an exit. That way any rise in temperature will begin moving the air and the flow of air through the hide will stop any condensation and hence any dessication problems.

Fantastic reply!


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

s6t6nic6l said:


> thanks for raising a thought provoking topic!!
> 
> what material will the chamber be constructed from?
> 
> ...


1. Glass is :censor: for insulation, plastic is :censor: to work with and is expensive, contiboard is :censor: in any circumstances and mdf is horrible!

Possibly a combination of a couple or all. My first instict is to build a prototype in glass because I've got gadzillions of it.

The chamber will have a removable top (Access from inside or outside the viv), or a removable front.

I don't think the height of the enclosure will have any effect on this unit. Treated air will travel from the bottom to the top regardless.

I shows how horrendous my drawing is. The chamber was supposed to be shown as just along the front, a square tube. Sorry but I have actually begun thinking the whole of the base could be raised to accommodate the Life Support. Has possibilities.


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## Mwoxy (Sep 22, 2008)

acromyrmexbob said:


> I love your point about temperature and humidity gradients. So the answer would be to separate the two as above. The heat is air based, the humidity is atomized 'mist'. The two mix in the vivarium. The atomizer is set at whatever the desired level of humidity is to be.


Relative humidity is a function of temperature and water content. RH varies with temperature. It is the amount of water air can hold and it varies with temperature

If you have air at say 28C and 50% relative humidity as you cool the air the RH will increase, until the dew point is reached and the water condenses. The reverse is true, if you have 90% humidity at 5C, the RH will be negligible when you reach say 30C. What stays constant is the absolute moisture content.

The comment re bacteria is valid, that is how Legionnaires disease was first contracted/discovered.

Interesting discussion. I think a combination of misting/foggers and appropriate substrate, that holds moisture and allows evaporation, is the way to go. Creating micro climates. Without sacrificing ventilation. 

With monitors, the high basking temperatures quickly deplete the air of any moisture. Deep moisture holding substrate that allows high humidity burrows/tunnels, provide the humidity requirements for the animals.

Cheers,

Mark


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## paul23 (May 12, 2011)

Mwoxy said:


> Relative humidity is a function of temperature and water content. RH varies with temperature. It is the amount of water air can hold and it varies with temperature
> 
> If you have air at say 28C and 50% relative humidity as you cool the air the RH will increase, until the dew point is reached and the water condenses. The reverse is true, if you have 90% humidity at 5C, the RH will be negligible when you reach say 30C. What stays constant is the absolute moisture content.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much what I meant but put better than I did. legionella is particularly what I was thinking about. It needs water at somewhere between 25-50ºC to survive, so one way around that is to heat the water beyond that point, but then your temperature in the enclosure is going to be too high. Far too messy.

Basically you can't have the same RH throughout the enclosure unless the temperature is the same, which it won't be for various reasons. The best you can do is exactly as Mark suggested with microclimates.

The height of the enclosure will have an effect by the way. The taller the enclosure, the bigger the temperature/RH gradient will be.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

OK, we need to deal with the Legionnaire's first. A question.....what is the difference between passing air over a standing body of water and using an atomizer (mister). As far as I know atomizers are widely used throughout the hobby but from reading around on Legionnaires it seems that there is equally a risk here but that this is being ignored. It is actually a case that the production of any humidity will carry an associated risk of Legionnaires so my question is basically (for the air conditioning experts) if there is a risk of Legionnaires from any method involving water in the temperature range of 25C - 50C carrying disease is it more negligent or not to design another system with a similar risk. 

To me, the way round this is to hold the reservoir of water at a temperature that is below 25C so this is not an issue and then mix the humid air with the heat after humidification.

What do you think?


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

from what I've read, water needs to be kept below 20C, or above 60C, to reduce the chance of an infection; changing the water regularly will help too

still to much work tho, considering the simpler and effective alternatives


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## paul23 (May 12, 2011)

acromyrmexbob said:


> OK, we need to deal with the Legionnaire's first. A question.....what is the difference between passing air over a standing body of water and using an atomizer (mister). As far as I know atomizers are widely used throughout the hobby but from reading around on Legionnaires it seems that there is equally a risk here but that this is being ignored. It is actually a case that the production of any humidity will carry an associated risk of Legionnaires so my question is basically (for the air conditioning experts) if there is a risk of Legionnaires from any method involving water in the temperature range of 25C - 50C carrying disease is it more negligent or not to design another system with a similar risk.
> 
> To me, the way round this is to hold the reservoir of water at a temperature that is below 25C so this is not an issue and then mix the humid air with the heat after humidification.
> 
> What do you think?


Whenever there is a body of water, stuffs going to grow in it. I don't know how atomizers work, I know it's something to do with ultrasonics, so I assume they separate the water and sterilise it. I'm just guessing though. I have no idea.

Heating the water is better than cooling it as you kill other things as well. For example, domestic heat pumps heat the water to 85ºC every now and then to kill anything in the water, the rest of the time the water sits at 55-65ºC. It doesn't need to be heated all the time, although it is safer to do so. 

Ultrasonics is probably the way to go, they wouldn't be sold if they were dangerous. I'd look into health risks of those and see if there are any.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

ultrasonic/atomisers don't do a great job of humidifying the air, I've tried many, they look pretty, and do provide some humidity, but it mostly sinks to the bottom of the enclosure and just sits there saturating the substrate, rather than raising the overall humidity level

given the lack of information on hearing range of reptiles, ultrasonic may not be appropriate for all species


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## paul23 (May 12, 2011)

good point


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

CloudForest said:


> ultrasonic/atomisers don't do a great job of humidifying the air, I've tried many, they look pretty, and do provide some humidity, but it mostly sinks to the bottom of the enclosure and just sits there saturating the substrate, rather than raising the overall humidity level
> 
> given the lack of information on hearing range of reptiles, ultrasonic may not be appropriate for all species


OK, hearing range of reptiles is interesting. I think snakes are unlikely to be troubled! :Na_Na_Na_Na: In fact none of the animals on the planet are likely to know whats going on. Unless I am reading things incorrectly, Humans can hear between 31Hz and 19000Hz, Treefrogs can hear between 15Hz and 4000Hz, the most sensitive hearing on the planet is the Bottlenose Dolphin which can hear between 150Hz and 150000Hz. Ultrsonic misters operate at 1600000Hz, 10x higher. 
I think there is a danger that, as with any new thinking, we can become immersed within the sticky mud of over deliberation. I do not accept that it is not possible to establish a gradient free humidity within an enclosed area nor do I think that it is impossible to design a system whereby air is treated at its entry point into the habitat. In fact I think that it is ludicrous to base our entire strategy for keeping herps on a system whereby air that is heated and treated is vented out of the enclosure by either active or passive ventillation and it is replaced constantly by air from outside which is generally not appropriate to the animal. Perhaps if this principal is accepted as bad practice by everyone then that would be a good starting point.
There is a danger that points are constantly raised and produce tangents which, whilst interesting in and of themselves, detract from the goal of this thread. Even I had to reread a few posts to remember what I was trying to point towards. An enclosure where we know what the air quality is because we have treated it all.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

1.6Mhz is certainly well out of hearing range, but we mustn't forget about the harmonics (0.8Mhz, 0.4, 0.2, 0.1, 0.05, etc etc, plus resonance caused by the shape/size/materials, eventually it will reach hearing range - whether it does or not or is significant, I do not know, but its something to be considered - i didn't realize they operated at such high freq tho, good to know (1.668Mhz according Wikipedia)) - probably not a major issue, just sumthing to keep in mind - but, atomisers don't humidify the air in the way that is needed, they mostly just saturate the substrate anyway


Why would you want a humidity gradient free enclosure? And how could you possibly achieve it with the required temperature gradient? I don't think it is physically possible, unless you saturate the air completely...but apart from Amphibians, i don't see much practical use for that?


I do agree there is significant danger of over thinking things...which is why i keep bringing up bioactive setups, the simple and effective solution to the problem


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## paul23 (May 12, 2011)

acromyrmexbob said:


> I do not accept that it is not possible to establish a gradient free humidity within an enclosed area


The only possible way to achieve that would be to have 100% humidity throughout or 0% humidity throughout or a constant temperature throughout. They're very difficult to achieve and I don't even know if they would be possible. All of these things are going to be worse for the animal than a slight gradient. 

Humidity isn't an absolute thing, it's relative (hence relative humidity), so if you change the temperature, the humidity automatically changes accordingly, although the moisture content could stay exactly the same. You can't have a temperature gradient without a humidity gradient, it's not physically possible. 40% humidity at 20ºC is a lot less air moisture content than 40% humidity at 30ºC.

I'm with you on treating the air, but you need to mix some fresh air to keep the oxygen levels up and other chemical levels down. it is also potentially less efficient to do it that way, depending on the conditions. For example, the large zoo enclosures that you do would be way more efficient using heat pumps rather than electric heaters and incandescent lamps, but for a typical 4 foot enclosure lamps are going to be better. The layout and design of the enclosure is going to have a big impact on the air quality throughout. It's not a simple task, because every enclosure is going to be different as is every animal's requirements.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

paul23 said:


> I'm with you on treating the air, but you need to mix some fresh air to keep the oxygen levels up and other chemical levels down.


With the design I'm proposing fresh air will enter the enclosure in the form of treated air. 

It may be that the treated air can enter the enclosure at many points around the walls, it could be sent from under the base and vented into the viv at the sides, back or even top. A combination of all of this would reduce any single area where air was entering down to a very low level of flow which would prevent any draughts and minimize unplanned gradients. 
The point I was making about gradients wasn't that you wouldn't want to have them or that it was even possible to achieve, I was trying to establish that for a new design of viv to be truly efficient it would need to allow the operator to set up and have knowledge of the conditions inside the habitat. I do not believe this is the case just now. In other words for this to be a step forward the creation of whatever conditions are desired has to be programmable and predictable. The addition of a bioactive substrate may or may not be desirable, depending on the particular setup. I think the design of a new viv should allow its use or not but should not depend on it.


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

I'm aware this thread is a couple of months old but..

On the point of legionnaires and cleaning both air and water, could you use a UVGI unit as purification for both near to where your intake is? That would sterilise the air and water as it passes through.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Jb1432 said:


> I'm aware this thread is a couple of months old but..
> 
> On the point of legionnaires and cleaning both air and water, could you use a UVGI unit as purification for both near to where your intake is? That would sterilise the air and water as it passes through.


if the UVC was not able to get into the enclosure, then yes that could work (but it would have to be 2 separate sections in that case, or it would get out of the vents - bare in mind of course, those tubes get to 90C easy, so that's more heat in the enclosure, the more ventilation you add, the more UVC is gonna get out = bad, very bad! for people and reptiles


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## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Well, after a long sojourn from the site (many many reasons why......too many!) it's refreshing to come back and find something genuinely new and interesting :2thumb:

I like the innovative thoughts, and while I have found the existing systems to be effective for keeping herps, I'm interested to see what effects these thoughts could have.

For myself, my incoming air is already heated as the room is kept at 22-24 degrees, however humidity is relatively uncontrolled, the tropical tanks have sprayer systems but the snakes and lizards are reliant on the substrate, occasional sprays and the location of their water bowls.

So, have you got anywhere towards making a prototype yet Andrew?

Oh, and on a different note, long time no talk, my apologies for that, life has been a little.........manic!

Dave


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