# Most venomous non DWA invert?



## 59sound (Feb 19, 2013)

So having seen a similar tread in the snake section, I was wondering what are the most venomous inverts we are legally allowed to keep?

Often bites/stings from inverts are compared to a Bee sting, is this a accurate? Is this the threshold at which an animal becomes DWA? When it is considerably worse than a Bee sting?

Same as the OP in the snake section I don't want to own the most dangerous invert possible. I am happy with my baby Emp but it is interesting!

Thanks for your answers folks


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## Stu II (May 22, 2008)

_Sicarius sp._ are often mentioned in threads like this. I'm not sure I'd want one. There's lots of rumours about _Macrothele gigas_ too, but I'm not convinced. In fact, I just bought one.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

59sound said:


> So having seen a similar tread in the snake section, I was wondering what are the most venomous inverts we are legally allowed to keep?
> 
> Often bites/stings from inverts are compared to a Bee sting, is this a accurate? Is this the threshold at which an animal becomes DWA? When it is considerably worse than a Bee sting?
> 
> ...


there are t's that will put you in A&E if they bite you- most of the african baboon t's, & all the pokies spring to mind there. & most giant centipede bites will ruin your day. & none of them are DWA.


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## rikki446 (Nov 24, 2011)

as far as tarantulas go there are plenty of old world species that can inflict serious pain if they bite you lasting weeks/months and in some cases a trip to the hospital


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

conversely, none of the real nasty scorps are non-DWA, unlike the nastiest t's.


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## liam peel (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm not massively into them but I would say i'm more than a beginner but I would say most of the baboons if not all and I have heard that ornamentals can be rather nasty too.
I can imagine there's a couple of centipedes that would try and hurt you too.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Sicarius sp are always mentioned. All of the big scolopendra will ruin you up day. Macrothele gigas won't do you any favours either. King baboon, ornamental baboon, gooty ornamental (any of the pokies) will put you on your arse too. Some sp of trapdoors supposedly pack a punch too. 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/spiders-inverts/1027590-new-member-my-inverts.html

Apart from the sand spider and trapdoor I've got all of the above and never had any problems.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Stu II said:


> _Sicarius sp._ are often mentioned in threads like this. I'm not sure I'd want one. There's lots of rumours about _Macrothele gigas_ too, but I'm not convinced. In fact, I just bought one.


My female. Stunning spider to own. You'll absolutely love yours. 

She's eating an adult male dubia roach. For scale.


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## multibit (Jul 31, 2011)

We have three Sicarius terrosus slings, Out of all our inverts the necrotic venom from these kill prey the fastest


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## multibit (Jul 31, 2011)

Beautiful specimen you have there Basin79


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

multibit said:


> Beautiful specimen you have there Basin79


Cheers. May I ask where you got your slings from?


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## multibit (Jul 31, 2011)

A guy on facebook , can't remember which group they was on but can have a look


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## multibit (Jul 31, 2011)

They was on the group Tarantula store, just hit Sicarius terrosus in the search


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

multibit said:


> They was on the group Tarantula store, just hit Sicarius terrosus in the search


Not on Facebook but my mate is. Cheers. Much appreciated.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Scolopendra sp. Hispanola giant red.: Scolopendra sp. Hispanola giant red. - YouTube


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## Stu II (May 22, 2008)

Basin79 said:


> My female. Stunning spider to own. You'll absolutely love yours.


Very nice. Mine is barely 2cm in legspan. Not very interesting yet.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Stu II said:


> Very nice. Mine is barely 2cm in legspan. Not very interesting yet.


Won't be too long before it's a nice size.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

How come you are not convinced about Macrothele gigas?


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> How come you are not convinced about Macrothele gigas?


because there are no reports of real serious bites.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

wilkinss77 said:


> because there are no reports of real serious bites.


Not yet, Theres been loads sold here in the last year...Give it time!


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> Not yet, Theres been loads sold here in the last year...Give it time!


the few bite reports there have been, suggests they're nasty but not real dangerous.


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## Stu II (May 22, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> How come you are not convinced about Macrothele gigas?


Every reference to them being dangerous seems to lead back to this paper:

Abstract

Having chased up the references cited in the text, they simply don't say what the authors of the above paper claim they do. For example, the references to _"Cardiac arrhythmias and cardiac arrest may occur. Severe pulmonary edema may occurs early and be fatal"_ do occur in the referenced texts, but in relation to _Atrax_, NOT _Macrothele_. Some combination of bad science and scaremongering, if you ask me.

Having said all that, I have never been bitten in fifteen years of spider keeping. I do not intend to start with these. Treat them with respect and you won't get bitten. If you don't get bitten, it doesn't matter how venomous they are.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Stu II said:


> Every reference to them being dangerous seems to lead back to this paper:
> 
> Abstract
> 
> ...


everything i've read about them, suggests their bite would be like that of their spanish relative, m.calpeiana- & m.calpeiana's bite is not deadly to humans.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

There are papers around concerning the proteins involved in Macrothele venom and it reads like a very bad evening indeed. I keep Macrothele gigas and it's an epic spider, But I think venom can be a funny one and everybody reacts in their own way chemically to toxins. I certainly wouldn't want to find out the hard way!


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

Stu II said:


> Every reference to them being dangerous seems to lead back to this paper:
> 
> Abstract
> 
> ...


You mean this? 

*Macrothele sp.* Because the fangs of the spider are large and enter with considerable force, the bite is very painful and the pain will persist for hours to days. Perioral tingling usually occurs within 15 minutes followed by tongue spasms, lacrimation, salivation, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, diaphoresis or severe dyspnea. Muscle fasciculations and spasms are also common. Cardiac arrythmias and cardiac arrest may occur. Severe pulmonary edema may occurs early and be fatal.

Where does that reference refer to Atrax? I've read and have this article and this paragraph is regarding Macrothele sp.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> You mean this?
> 
> *Macrothele sp.* Because the fangs of the spider are large and enter with considerable force, the bite is very painful and the pain will persist for hours to days. Perioral tingling usually occurs within 15 minutes followed by tongue spasms, lacrimation, salivation, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, diaphoresis or severe dyspnea. Muscle fasciculations and spasms are also common. Cardiac arrythmias and cardiac arrest may occur. Severe pulmonary edema may occurs early and be fatal.
> 
> Where does that reference refer to Atrax? I've read and have this article and this paragraph is regarding Macrothele sp.


m.calpeiana's venom is known NOT to be fatal to humans- there have been several cases of bites, & none were really medically significant.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

wilkinss77 said:


> m.calpeiana's venom is known NOT to be fatal to humans- there have been several cases of bites, & none were really medically significant.


But it's not stating specifically M calpeiana venom, It's a generalisation on Macrothele sp venom. Each spider will pack it's own punch so to speak. 

So you're telling me that all sp of Rattlesnake or Cone shell's all produce the exact same toxic formulae? To the exact same recipe of all their other relatives just because their in their genus?


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> But it's not stating specifically M calpeiana venom, It's a generalisation on Macrothele sp venom. Each spider will pack it's own punch so to speak.
> 
> So you're telling me that all sp of Rattlesnake or Cone shell's all produce the exact same toxic formulae? To the exact same recipe of all their other relatives just because their in their genus?


but there are no reports of any fatalities from any macrothele sp. if they were all that dangerous (up there with atrax sp. etc), surely there would be at least one or two such reports? not saying their bite is nothing to worry about- no doubt it would ruin your day a la baboon/pokie- but i doubt they're the most venomous non-dwa invert, or even up there.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

wilkinss77 said:


> but there are no reports of any fatalities from any macrothele sp. if they were all that dangerous (up there with atrax sp. etc), surely there would be at least one or two such reports? not saying their bite is nothing to worry about- no doubt it would ruin your day a la baboon/pokie- but i doubt they're the most venomous non-dwa invert, or even up there.


Your counting on the fact that what has bitten someone fatally has been first identified? We don't always see what bites us. For example regarding venom lets say that Macrothele sp is spread worldwide, So they will each have their own set of prey items and predators to contend with in their natural habitat. In fact this can be put over to most venomous creatures that evolve venom. It had to evolve in the first place right?
So as Macrothele gigas reaches a much larger size than it European counterpart it will have a much wider array of prey items and also due to the tropical location a wider selection of more finely tuned predators, Predators and prey that could very well over time build up an immunity to the spiders venom forcing the spiders again over time to adjust/tweak the amount injected and the toxicity. Mammals for example can be very adept at building up resistance to venom so the spider/snake whatever must in order to survive keep up with the changes or be hunted to extinction. Maybe there have been deaths due to this spider bite and the animal in question was simply not identified, Or misidentified. I just can't see comparing the venom toxicity from each sp as being relatively the same as being valid at all, It's just not realistic.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> Your counting on the fact that what has bitten someone fatally has been first identified? We don't always see what bites us. For example regarding venom lets say that Macrothele sp is spread worldwide, So they will each have their own set of prey items and predators to contend with in their natural habitat. In fact this can be put over to most venomous creatures that evolve venom. It had to evolve in the first place right?
> So as Macrothele gigas reaches a much larger size than it European counterpart it will have a much wider array of prey items and also due to the tropical location a wider selection of more finely tuned predators, Predators and prey that could very well over time build up an immunity to the spiders venom forcing the spiders again over time to adjust/tweak the amount injected and the toxicity. Mammals for example can be very adept at building up resistance to venom so the spider/snake whatever must in order to survive keep up with the changes or be hunted to extinction. Maybe there have been deaths due to this spider bite and the animal in question was simply not identified, Or misidentified. I just can't see comparing the venom toxicity from each sp as being relatively the same as being valid at all, It's just not realistic.


i didn't say that- i said there are no fatality reports from _any_ of the macrothele sp. if there had been any, at least a few would be reported, as per atrax sp, for which there are several fatality reports- & atrax are only found in a limited region of australia.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

wilkinss77 said:


> i didn't say that- i said there are no fatality reports from _any_ of the macrothele sp. if there had been any, at least a few would be reported, as per atrax sp, for which there are several fatality reports- & atrax are only found in a limited region of australia.


Just because there have been no recorded deaths does not mean that there have been no deaths. If I were to get bitten I would travel the few miles to my local hospital with papers and receive treatment, But what about the people living miles from nowhere, No cars, No air ambulance...What are their chances? This is a fairly bad example but being acquitted of a crime does not mean that you are innocent of that crime such as the law works these days. I'm just saying, Maybe there have been reports made at hospitals, Medical centers but thats the tip of the iceberg I'm sure and they have access to treatment. However it's not like that for everyone.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> Just because there have been no recorded deaths does not mean that there have been no deaths. If I were to get bitten I would travel the few miles to my local hospital with papers and receive treatment, But what about the people living miles from nowhere, No cars, No air ambulance...What are their chances? This is a fairly bad example but being acquitted of a crime does not mean that you are innocent of that crime such as the law works these days. I'm just saying, Maybe there have been reports made at hospitals, Medical centers but thats the tip of the iceberg I'm sure and they have access to treatment. However it's not like that for everyone.


now read the bit about atrax sp. they are less common than m.gigas, but there _are _fatality reports. if a more common species like m.gigas was deadly, surely it follows that there would be fatality reports for them also?


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

wilkinss77 said:


> now read the bit about atrax sp. they are less common than m.gigas, but there _are _fatality reports. if a more common species like m.gigas was deadly, surely it follows that there would be fatality reports for them also?


Atrax kills yes, But very few people die from a bite these days so we could imply that Atrax is a safe bet, hardly! But only due to advances in medicine. I think dogs kill more people than Atrax. There are some things that just never see the light of day. Some things that never get reported. So the things we base our knowledge on is the reported information, Which could also be wrong or at least a misrepresentation of the truth! I with you on agree no reported deaths, However it does not mean that a death has not already occurred and simply not been fortunate enough to be reported or taken to hospital or identified as such. The report is a piece of paper and not necessarily a 100% true representation of whats really going on as it's what they have at the time to run with. It's a report that is true to what they know, But what about the things they don't know and can't account for?


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## Stu II (May 22, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> You mean this?
> 
> *Macrothele sp.* Because the fangs of the spider are large and enter with considerable force, the bite is very painful and the pain will persist for hours to days. Perioral tingling usually occurs within 15 minutes followed by tongue spasms, lacrimation, salivation, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, diaphoresis or severe dyspnea. Muscle fasciculations and spasms are also common. Cardiac arrythmias and cardiac arrest may occur. Severe pulmonary edema may occurs early and be fatal.
> 
> Where does that reference refer to Atrax? I've read and have this article and this paragraph is regarding Macrothele sp.


Yep, that one. In this paper it refers to _Macrothele_, but if you follow the citation, the paper it is citing from refers to _Atrax_. Simply misleading and plain bad science. Don't believe everything you read. It's always worth checking those references.


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

Stu II said:


> Yep, that one. In this paper it refers to _Macrothele_, but if you follow the citation, the paper it is citing from refers to _Atrax_. Simply misleading and plain bad science. Don't believe everything you read. It's always worth checking those references.


You're absolutely right! That is misleading. Still though...Wouldn't want to play down the risks of being bitten by one! I still think it would be one of the worst experiences for anyone.


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

You what???? Come on!!! I'll take you all on.


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## Stu II (May 22, 2008)

spidersteve said:


> You're absolutely right! That is misleading. Still though...Wouldn't want to play down the risks of being bitten by one! I still think it would be one of the worst experiences for anyone.


I suspect you're right, but I have absolutely no intention of finding out! I'm just not convinced they deserve the title of 'most venomous non-DWA invert'.


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## Alan hickin (Mar 11, 2011)

*Nasty inverts*

Hi everyone  I've got a 

0.0.1 Sicarius terrosus 
0.0.1 Macrothele gigas
Scolopendra galapagoensis 
Deathstalker ( Leiurus quinquestriatus )


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Alan hickin said:


> Hi everyone  I've got a
> 
> 0.0.1 Sicarius terrosus
> 0.0.1 Macrothele gigas
> ...


the last one doesn't count, as it is DWA.


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## Alan hickin (Mar 11, 2011)

*Dwa*

The last doesn't count? What u mean mate?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Alan hickin said:


> The last doesn't count? What u mean mate?


He means it doesn't count as it is a DWA species, meaning you need a licence to keep it. This thread is about NON DWA species.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

ian14 said:


> He means it doesn't count as it is a DWA species, meaning you need a licence to keep it. This thread is about NON DWA species.


took the words out of my mouth.:notworthy:


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Alan hickin said:


> The last doesn't count? What u mean mate?


You do have a DWAL don't you??


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The three most venomous inverts that are not on the DWAA schedule are: 

Geographic cone_ Conus geographus_
Box jellyfish _Chironex fleckeri_
Blue ringed octopus _Hapalochlaena spp_

They are streets ahead of anything else by far, indeed that latter two species are more toxic than any species listed on the DWAA….?


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Chris Newman said:


> The three most venomous inverts that are not on the DWAA schedule are:
> 
> Geographic cone_ Conus geographus_
> Box jellyfish _Chironex fleckeri_
> ...


The box jellyfish is regarded as the most venomous animal in the world. The cone shell and blue ring would kill too. Astounding. So my guess it because they require water they pose no threat to the public.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Basin79 said:


> The box jellyfish is regarded as the most venomous animal in the world. The cone shell and blue ring would kill too. Astounding. So my guess it because they require water they pose no threat to the public.


It is debatable which is the most lethal the box jelly fish or the blue ringed octopus (my money is on the octopus) but it’s arguable. What is not arguable is what presents the biggest threat to the public in terms of a ‘captive animals’ and the octopus wins that hands down. So, to have a sea snake (the most toxic sakes) you need a DWAA (they are helpless on land) but to have a blue ringed octopus (which is quite agile on land) you don’t, that makes sense?


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Octopus are definitely able to get around on land for short periods of time. The DWA is just odd anyway. It needs a massive overhaul with different grades. Quite why I have to have a window or double door entry into my animal room for a DWA invert is beyond me. Have a quick look through the window, then still have to use my x-ray vision to see the the inverts are still hiding in their locked vivs anyway.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

I absolutely agree the DWAA needs a substantial overhaul, it’s clearly not fit for purpose. I am thoroughly supportive of the concept, it just needs to be workable which as its stands it’s not


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## 59sound (Feb 19, 2013)

Chris Newman said:


> I absolutely agree the DWAA needs a substantial overhaul, it’s clearly not fit for purpose. I am thoroughly supportive of the concept, it just needs to be workable which as its stands it’s not
> 
> The only problem with the DWAA being overhauled is they will probably get it even more wrong. Could imagine some of the bigger snakes and lizards ending up on there, of course this could still happen if some faceless EU politician decides that's what he wants and like everything else we would be powerless to do anything about it


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

i was under the impression cone shells are under a completely different licence not sure if it was just the usa but the documentry was talking about them being that toxic there classed as a bioweapon ??


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

59sound said:


> Chris Newman said:
> 
> 
> > I absolutely agree the DWAA needs a substantial overhaul, it’s clearly not fit for purpose. I am thoroughly supportive of the concept, it just needs to be workable which as its stands it’s not
> ...


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## Basin79 (Apr 1, 2014)

Chris Newman said:


> 59sound said:
> 
> 
> > The DWAA is a domestic competency so the EU has no say in what happens, that said we (the UK) either need to revise the Act so it is workable or repeal it completely.
> ...


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