# SS Tremper Albino Eye Colour...



## funky1

Right, this is doing my nut in now. There seems to be widespread confusion on whether a SS Tremper Albinos have black eyes usually or the deepest ruby red. My personal opinion, after having seen at least a dozen close up is that all Albinos have varying shades of red/pink eyes - some so dark that they can appear black.
However, after conversing with 2 very experienced, well respected breeders, it appears that in their opinion black eyes are `the norm` and actual ruby eyes are quite rare - what`s that all about???? As said, the ones I`ve seen have red, and it brings up the question - if they have black eyes, then why are they still so light sensitive????
Please enlighten!!!! 
If I`m wrong, then I`ll totally hold my hands up and do a belly flop in a bucket of Jelly - not a pretty sight.


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## Siman

I thought part of being an albino meant red eyes..?


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## MrMike

SS albinos (any strain) should have red eyes. Unless I am missing something? Can you get pics form these breeders showing black eyes? I have seen really deep red eyes.


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## SleepyD

was of the opinion that SS albinos like any other albino had red eye's as they can't produce black pigmentation : victory:


funky1 said:


> If I`m wrong, then I`ll totally hold my hands up and do a belly flop in a bucket of Jelly - not a pretty sight.


oooo that'd be a sight to see :2thumb:

*edited to add ~ one of the best examples I've seen is one of GGG's SSTA's ~ and though the eye's look 'black' they're actually a really dark red


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## funky1

MrMike said:


> SS albinos (any strain) should have red eyes. Unless I am missing something? Can you get pics form these breeders showing black eyes? I have seen really deep red eyes.


That`s what I thought pal, but there are a few ppl who are swearing blind that they have - or only know of - SS Albinos who have black eyes. I`ve seen it stated a couple of times on here over the last few days and a couple of people away from the forum have said the same thing as well - leading me to think the same as you - as I missing something as well?! 

I can`t get pics unfortunately pal as they`re not involved in the debate (yet anyway! ) and it`s not just the one particular person who`s said it either, which got me thinking.


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## funky1

SleepyD said:


> oooo that'd be a sight to see :2thumb:


 You pay for the jelly and it`s a deal! : victory:


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## gazz

They are all albino so do express red eyes.But some are so deep they look black.

Balbino super snow eyes you will always see the red clearly.

Talbino super snow eyes some you will see deep red looking black.Others you will clearly see the red.

Ralbino super snow eyes alwaty look black you will never see as bright red Ralbino eye namly the pupils are always dark.


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## MrMike

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizard-pictures/331358-super-snow-albinos-ruby-eyes.html

Also found this pic (I'm at work so am being sneaky :whistling2










Now I know it is enigma, but as far as I know enigma doesn't turn black eclipse eyes into red eclispe eyes.


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## LoveGeckos.com

We have hatched several Super Snow Albinos this year. 

Our TUG Albinos X Mack Super Snow Albinos all have what I would class as a black eye and are *not* light sensitive. Now they could be very deep red, but I for one can't see red in there.

Out of our Super Snow Albino X Super Snow Albino (Tremper Strain) all have hatched with what I would class as deep red eyes.

Out of our Super Snow Albino X Super Snow Albino (Bell Strain) all eyes look red.


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## quadrapop

this confused me when folk started this on my thread too


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## MrMike

LoveGeckos.com said:


> We have hatched several Super Snow Albinos this year.
> 
> *Our TUG Albinos X Mack Super Snow Albinos all have what I would class as a black eye and are not light sensitive. Now they could be very deep red, but I for one can't see red in there.*
> 
> Out of our Super Snow Albino X Super Snow Albino (Tremper Strain) all have hatched with what I would class as deep red eyes.
> 
> Out of our Super Snow Albino X Super Snow Albino (Bell Strain) all eyes look red.


That is very interesting, any pics of these?


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## SleepyD

if an albino's eyes look 'black' then the easiest way of telling whether or not it's a true black or a very dark red is to take a pic and then put it through photoshop to 'lighten' it


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## gazz

I've used a Talbino and Ralbino for the example.Just to show the typical eye color tone.

Typical Balbino super snow eyes.









Typical Talbino super snow eyes.
*From this*.








*To this.*
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*

Typical Ralbino super snow eyes.
*







*


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## LoveGeckos.com

Here is a picture of the TUG Snow Albino x Mack Super Snow Albino hatchling. As I said I cannot see red, but they may be very dark.

I am sure someone will play with it in photoshop and let use all know.


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## MrMike

LoveGeckos.com said:


> I am sure someone will play with it in photoshop and let use all know.


Hope so!


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## forgottenEntity

Still very black...

I even ran a RGB filter across it with increased red and... they still came out jet black. Pretty safe to say that they are indeed... Black.


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## MrMike

forgottenEntity said:


> Still very black...
> 
> I even ran a RGB filter across it with increased red and... they still came out jet black. Pretty safe to say that they are indeed... Black.


Woah, well, that throws a spanner in the works....


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## forgottenEntity

MrMike said:


> Woah, well, that throws a spanner in the works....


Same discussion happening on another thread...

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/331096-my-doncaster-buys-my-first-5.html#post4230103

Basically, we own what appears to be a jet-black eyed Tremper SSA... and I also have what I believe is the UK's first Supersnow Rainwater Patternless... which again, has eyes absolutely as black as can be...

Tremper SSA...










Supersnow Rainwater Patternless....


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## MrMike

Well, seems we have alot more to learn then, as not all SS talbinos have black eyes (unsure on the RW though)


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## forgottenEntity

MrMike said:


> Well, seems we have alot more to learn then, as not all SS talbinos have black eyes (unsure on the RW though)


Indeed 

I don't know of any red/ruby-tinted RW supersnows but, that could be because they are the least common/popular strain of albino supersnow cross and so are rather hard to find. Took me ages to find "Avalanche", my SSRWP. The theory about them all supposedly having to have red tint in the eyes sounds very plausable... and it could be the case - just that the red tint in certain examples is so tiny that no matter how much you try to emphasis it in photos, you still cant see it. Or, it could be that they truely are jet black - where somehow in certain SS crosses, the SS eye trait manages to mask out the red albino eye effect entirely. Or it could be something else entirely :lol2:


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## MrMike

forgottenEntity said:


> Indeed
> 
> I don't know of any red/ruby-tinted RW supersnows but, that could be because they are the least common/popular strain of albino supersnow cross and so are rather hard to find. Took me ages to find "Avalanche", my SSRWP. The theory about them all supposedly having to have red tint in the eyes sounds very plausable... and it could be the case - just that the red tint in certain examples is so tiny that no matter how much you try to emphasis it in photos, you still cant see it. Or, it could be that they truely are jet black - where somehow in certain SS crosses, the SS eye trait manages to mask out the red albino eye effect entirely. Or it could be something else entirely :lol2:


Oooh the possibilities, However, all 3 forms of albinism in Leopard geckos stops the production of melanin, so how can the black pigment be there?
This all confuses me really, doesn't seem right.


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## pinks

Sorry but they are not hard to find at all.Maybe there isn't many in the uk but they can be found quite easy.We have 6 baby's off our lot take a look here for one Leopard Gecko ~ Available


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## forgottenEntity

pinks said:


> Sorry but they are not hard to find at all.Maybe there isn't many in the uk but they can be found quite easy.We have 6 baby's off our lot take a look here for one Leopard Gecko ~ Available


Can see no Supersnow Rainwaters on there - couple of hets but no actual examples. Have I missed spotting them? If so, sorry.

I know over in the US and for that matter in parts of Europe, Rainwaters are much more popular than here in the UK.


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## forgottenEntity

MrMike said:


> Oooh the possibilities, However, all 3 forms of albinism in Leopard geckos stops the production of melanin, so how can the black pigment be there?
> This all confuses me really, doesn't seem right.


I could twist this around a bit....

Snake-eyed RAPTORs.... Go on, eclipse trait is there... it's an albino. And what colour is the solid coloured part of the eye?


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## MrMike

forgottenEntity said:


> I could twist this around a bit....
> 
> Snake-eyed RAPTORs.... Go on, eclipse trait is there... it's an albino. And what colour is the solid coloured part of the eye?


Bah, I had forgotten about that. Note to self: Think before posting.

Still wierd though.


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## forgottenEntity

MrMike said:


> Bah, I had forgotten about that. Note to self: Think before posting.
> 
> Still wierd though.


With the Supersnow Albinos and RAPTORs, you could make a case of the albino trait not blanketing the eyes much at all in some cases and completely blanketing in others (stopping all eye pigment - causing brilliant red)... except I've never seen a brilliant red eyed supersnow albino - Ruby, yes... but never brilliant red. Maybe with supersnows, the eclipse effect isnt blocked out at all by the albino mutation in some cases and only partly blocked out in others (causing black through to ruby eye colouring)?

With RAPTOR eyes, you can get very bright red, all the way down to quite deep ruby. I assume this is down to how much the albino trait is stopping eye pigment production. The theory falls apart when you look at snake-eyes though. Surely the same should be happening with the solid part of the snake-eye, given it's the same genetic mutation that causes a full solid eye in a RAPTOR... but then, it most certainly is a red colour. Something else is happening with snake eyes to prevent the red happening.

And if anyone wants to explain how this happens sometimes with RAPTOR eyes... I'd love to know


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## MrMike

I am at work, so answers are short today. Just wanted to express my desire to own the Leo in the picture :whistling2:


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## forgottenEntity

MrMike said:


> I am at work, so answers are short today. Just wanted to express my desire to own the Leo in the picture :whistling2:


Suggest you have a wander over to... http://www.jamieswordsreptiles.com then


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## MrMike

forgottenEntity said:


> Suggest you have a wander over to... http://www.jamieswordsreptiles.com then


Ohh I did, however, I am testing my willpower.


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## SleepyD

MrMike said:


> Ohh I did, however, I am testing my willpower.


breaking strain of a wet paper bag :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## MrMike

SleepyD said:


> breaking strain of a wet paper bag :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## SleepyD

MrMike said:


>


I've been a married woman for well over half my life ........... sad puppydog eyes and tears don't work anymore I'm afraid .... 



well not unless they're accompanied by high pitched screams :lol2:



*MrsMike remember where to grab him at the right time* : victory:


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## MrMike

SleepyD said:


> *MrsMike remember where to grab him at the right time* : victory:


Shhhh! She nearly forgot about that!


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## gazz

MrMike said:


> All 3 forms of albinism in Leopard geckos stops the production of melanin, so how can the black pigment be there?
> This all confuses me really, doesn't seem right.


All three stains of leo are T+ albinos this type of albino only reduces not really stops melanin.

T + (Tyrosinase Positive) Albinos appear to exhibit an inability to complete the synthesis of melanin.Colors with reduced/absence of black pigment, replaced with shades of brown.but can produce other melanin related pigments such as various shades of brown grey & red. 

Ralbino super snow eye.Look at the picture at a distence it looks black.
However look really close you'll see that the back tone of the eye is more mahogany than black that fits in with a T+ albino.


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## MrMike

gazz said:


> All three stains of leo are T+ albinos this type of albino only reduces not really stops melanin.
> 
> T + (Tyrosinase Positive) Albinos appear to exhibit an inability to complete the synthesis of melanin.Colors with reduced/absence of black pigment, replaced with shades of brown.but can produce other melanin related pigments such as various shades of brown grey & red.
> 
> Ralbino super snow eye.Look at the picture at a distence it looks black.
> However look really close you'll see that the back tone of the eye is more mahogany than black that fits in with a T+ albino.


Aha, thanks Gazz. I always wondered this T+, T- malarky seen in corns (or royals, can't remember)


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## funky1

forgottenEntity said:


> With RAPTOR eyes, you can get very bright red, all the way down to quite deep ruby. I assume this is down to how much the albino trait is stopping eye pigment production. The theory falls apart when you look at snake-eyes though. Surely the same should be happening with the solid part of the snake-eye, given it's the same genetic mutation that causes a full solid eye in a RAPTOR... but then, it most certainly is a red colour. Something else is happening with snake eyes to prevent the red happening.


Could it be that (and this is in layman`s terms), if the full Eclipse needs for example 100 parts in the sequence to make the full red eclipse in the Raptor, and if anything below and upto 100 classes/makes a Snake Eye, then it`s the 100th bit of the sequence that blocks the eye pigment? (barring the obvious rare exceptions such as J.S`s `freaky eyed Raptor`).
Like I said, Layman`s terms, and there`s no doubt not 100 parts in the full Eclipse code/sequence, but you get my drift!!!


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## Sarah-Jayne

My super snow bell definately has red eyes 



















I might have missed something but I am pretty sure albino leos can't have black eyes?


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## forgottenEntity

funky1 said:


> Could it be that (and this is in layman`s terms), if the full Eclipse needs for example 100 parts in the sequence to make the full red eclipse in the Raptor, and if anything below and upto 100 classes/makes a Snake Eye, then it`s the 100th bit of the sequence that blocks the eye pigment? (barring the obvious rare exceptions such as J.S`s `freaky eyed Raptor`).
> Like I said, Layman`s terms, and there`s no doubt not 100 parts in the full Eclipse code/sequence, but you get my drift!!!


I very much get your drift, yes, :2thumb:

The eclipse trait is most likely a DNA alteration/mutation on a single gene. The way genetic inheritance works, you would get all of that gene's DNA sequence or nothing... it's either 0% or 100%, you can't chop it at 99% as such, for snake eyes, you ideally would be looking for something on a different gene than the eclipse trait gene. And there in lies a rather long and drawn out debate between a lot of people on the forums as to whether you could possibly split out the eclipse trait from the solid eyed eclipse trait. The current accepted thinking is that it's totally random as to whether you get solid eyes or snake eyes.... not an idea I like. Especially when RT has managed to come up with a leo morph now that can exhibit snake eyes WITHOUT carrying the eclipse gene (the Abyssinian morph). I think there's a lot more to the snake eyed trait than we currently know... and I do believe it to be a seperate genetic inheritable trait from solid eclipse eyes. But that's just my view


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## forgottenEntity

Sarah-Jayne said:


> My super snow bell definately has red eyes
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> I might have missed something but I am pretty sure albino leos can't have black eyes?


Yup, SS Bells are the red-est eyed of the Supersnow albino strains.

Have you got an over head shot of your Supersnow Bell? I am rather interested in his markings down his back, if you could get one, that would be cool 

As for (supersnow) Albino leos not being able to have black eyes... read previous page - 2 pics of 2 of ours, with very black eyes


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## Sarah-Jayne

Nope no shots of her from above at the moment but she is only a baby and just gaining her spots 

If there are 'albino' leos with black eyes then surely they are not truely albino?


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## Captainmatt29

The whole albino basis is red eyes and no black pigmentation so if they are really 100% black then they cant be or are a possbile hybridisation.


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## forgottenEntity

messengermatt said:


> The whole albino basis is red eyes and no black pigmentation so if they are really 100% black then they cant be or are a possbile hybridisation.


You are basing your views of what a Supersnow Albino's eyes should do on what you see a RAPTORs eyes do. Yes, if a RAPTOR shows the solid eyed trait instead of snake eyes, it's eyes WILL be red. However, as I said in detail back on page 2 I think it was.... you will notice that not all RAPTORs have bright red eyes - some have darker red / ruby eyes. It is my belief that the albino trait is able to limit Tyrosinase enzyme production in true Eclipse gene carriers (RAPTOR for example) more readily than it can in Supersnows.

So, taking the idea from the RAPTOR of bright red through to ruby as possible colours let's take Supersnows instead where, in some cases, albino limits the pigmentation a lot... Meaning hardly any dark pigmentation and bright red eyes... in other cases it barely touches the production of it at all... to the point where you can not see any reduction in pigmentation - so, eyes are dark still... black in the cases where pigmentation isnt reduced as such.

Just a theory (about Tyrosinase production being more easily stopped in Eclipse carriers than Supersnows) but, it would fit with what you see.... Given lots of people out there have visibly solid black eyed Supersnow Albinos


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## nuttybabez

I know Ron charges a lot more for ruby eyed supersnow TAlbinos so they can't all be ruby eyed otherwise, why the difference in price? Or am I being naive?

If supersnows have solid black eyes, is it not possible that the supersnow gene overpowers the albino gene and you get black eyes?? I dunno, I don't understand all the technicalities, thats forgottenEntitys job! lol


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## Captainmatt29

I think we need to prove the theory in this case because obviously something isnt right, i guess the raptor theory makes sense though


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## forgottenEntity

messengermatt said:


> I think we need to prove the theory in this case because obviously something isnt right, i guess the raptor theory makes sense though


Kind of already have, because there are so many black eyed SS Albinos out there  It would fit that Rainwater has very little if not zero ability at stopping eye pigment production in Supersnows, Tremper has a range of ability... varying from little or zero right the way up to near total... and Bell seems to near enough always stop at least a fair amount of pigment being produced (can't ever remember seeing a black eyed Supersnow Bell Albino).


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## gazz

The DARK looking black eyes are found in all the eye traits.It's dark mohogany.Look close not from a far.And brown are a color tone of T+ Albinos as well as red.

Talbino eclipse in a RAPTOR type.









Talbino eclipse in a Talbino eclipse blizzard-AKA-Diablo blanco.









False eclipse in a Talbino blizzard.









IMO in baby albinos the eye tend to be bright red when the eyes are more red.So if the eye are more brown and this was bright it reverses and would be darker making the eye look black.

Look really close you can see brown.Look closer you can even make out the pupil.


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## Sarah-Jayne

Now I am gonna throw a spanner in the works...I have a normal super snow that is NOT albino but he has dark brown/red eyes, not black


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## forgottenEntity

Sarah-Jayne said:


> Now I am gonna throw a spanner in the works...I have a normal super snow that is NOT albino but he has dark brown/red eyes, not black


Not as big a spanner as this throws into the works....










.... Kidding, before anyone takes it seriously... I do not own a leo with green eyes, :lol2:


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## nuttybabez

Oh wow! Mango looks so cool like that!

Why is it Gazz that your example pics are never your own leos?


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## Mal

I own a JMG albino SS and she has jet black eyes. She was paired with a SS het albino this season and so far we have 6 albino hatchlings. Four of the hatchlings were incubated for female and have black eyes. Two were incubated for male and have ruby eyes. That would suggest that incubation temp has some influence on the colouring. I have spoken with another breeder and asked similar questions as to whats been asked here ie 'are all albino SS's eyes a ruby colour but in the majority of cases the ruby colouring is so deep it appears black?'.

I will try to get pics in a short while though to be honest, I have tried previously to get pics of the male ruby eyes and havent been able to get them to show in the pic. Possibly because they are so tiny but I will have another go. They are definatly ruby though.


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## Sarah-Jayne

forgottenEntity said:


> Not as big a spanner as this throws into the works....
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lol thats quite cool, I was being serious though!


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## gazz

nuttybabez said:


> Why is it Gazz that your example pics are never your own leos?


1/why p**s about trying to get good pictures of your own when there good example pictures already out there.2/Coz i don't have any leo's with eyes that dark.I've had my far share of leo's in the past and at presant i only have some leo's as i have a goal in mind.It hard to get leo's when your very fussy about what you have.And i want all my males to Express Talbino + eclipse + Snow.And my females to be 1 normal type + 1 enigma type.And looking grade-A of the examples.

so for example.

(M)Talbino eclipse Snow(Banded).
(FM)Normal(Banded) HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(FM)Enigma(Banded) HET Talbino,Eclipse.

(M)Talbino eclipse snow jungle.
(FM)Jungle HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(FM)Engma jungle HET Talbino,Eclipse.

(M)Talbino eclipse snow patternless reverse striped.
(FM)Patternless reverse striped HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(FM)Enigma patternless reverse striped HET Talbino,Eclipse.

(M)Talbino eclipse hypo snow.
(FM)Hypo HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(FM)Hypo enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.

(M)Talbino eclipse snow blizzard.
(FM)Blizzard HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(FM)Blizzard enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.

(M)Talbino eclipse super snow.
(FM)Super snow HET Talbino,Eclipse.
(FM)Super snow enigma HET Talbino,Eclipse.

etc,etc,etc.

As you can imagion not that easy to pull off.Plus doing this spots me buying leo's left,right and center i'm sure you and any other leo fan knows how esay that is to do:lol2:.It's about now-ish/this year when some of these tyes of leo's will be availiable in the uk.

Would showing pictures of my own make me any more or any less knowledgeable ?.All you need to have a leo is money.You can still not have somthing and still know what your talking about.If that's where you going with you question.


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## Mal

Following on from my earlier post Ive just spent a bit of time in the rep room trying to get head shots of albino SS hatchlings. I can definately say that irrespective of eye colouration these hatchlings are very sensative to light. I have tried and tried to capture the ruby colouration of the male hatchlings eyes but it is not coming out clearly in the images. Im not sure if its the flash thats causing their eyes to appear darker than the ruby colour they actually are. Heres some of the shots. The only photo manipulation is to crop them to head shots.

First the JMG female albino SS.









Her markings suggest she may have been incubated at lower temps similar to choc albinos. This ties in with the thought that lower incubation temp may have some influence on the eye colourartion of albino SS.

Next, the first of the female hatchlings with what appear to be black eyes.








Female hatchling number 2 again with apparently black eyes










Next albino SS hatchlings incubated for male at higher temps. These little chap have definate ruby eyes though they do not show so clearly in the pic. If manified though you will see they are definate ruby.
























There cant be any doubt that albino SuperSnows can have eyes that appear to be black. Could it be possible that the black eyes are actually a very deep ruby colour ? Could colouration possibly be linked to incubation temperature ? As someone has said previously, ruby eyed SS albinos fetch a higher price so there must be difference in the available colours. I also know some breeders are working towards improving or strengthening their albino SS strain to one that produces hatchlings wich all show ruby eyes. Basically they are trying to weed out the black eyed versions of the albino SS.


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## Mal

Just found this on another forum. It may be of interest.
A Question about Albino Super Snows - GeckoForums.net


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## forgottenEntity

Mal said:


> There cant be any doubt that albino SuperSnows can have eyes that appear to be black. Could it be possible that the black eyes are actually a very deep ruby colour ?


You're in agreement with me there from a couple of pages back on the thread 



> Could colouration possibly be linked to incubation temperature ? As someone has said previously, ruby eyed SS albinos fetch a higher price so there must be difference in the available colours. I also know some breeders are working towards improving or strengthening their albino SS strain to one that produces hatchlings wich all show ruby eyes. Basically they are trying to weed out the black eyed versions of the albino SS.


Possibly.... Thing is, would that also have a similar effect on "normal" or "albino" eyes, depending on incubation temp? To be honest, I've never really looked at a choc albino's eyes to see if they are slightly darker than a light albino's eyes. I will have a nosey at a couple here later and see if I can spot a difference.


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## Captainmatt29

Still need real proof that they are black, i saw a supposed black eyed leo again today and at very very close inspection they are such an extreme dark ruby color you could say they were black.


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## Captainmatt29

Mal said:


> Next, the first of the female hatchlings with what appear to be black eyes.
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> Next albino SS hatchlings incubated for male at higher temps. These little chap have definate ruby eyes though they do not show so clearly in the pic. If manified though you will see they are definate ruby.
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> There cant be any doubt that albino SuperSnows can have eyes that appear to be black. Could it be possible that the black eyes are actually a very deep ruby colour ? Could colouration possibly be linked to incubation temperature ? As someone has said previously, ruby eyed SS albinos fetch a higher price so there must be difference in the available colours. I also know some breeders are working towards improving or strengthening their albino SS strain to one that produces hatchlings wich all show ruby eyes. Basically they are trying to weed out the black eyed versions of the albino SS.


On closer inspection of these their eyes are all actually a very dark ruby color.


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## nuttybabez

And how are we supposed to provide real proof messengermatt? If you can let me know how, I will check mine.

Gazz, I guess some people like to show off their leos and get great pics of them and others just can't be bothered...makes me wonder what you do actually have in your collection and how many leos you have *actually* owned, rather than read and dreamed about. And no I was not saying this makes you any more knowledgeable, just less practically experienced thats all. You seem very dismissive of other peoples successes and experiences. Good luck on your A1 search. Them that look for perfection will realise this doesn't exist, but hey I am sure you are happy with your leos and I am happy with mine.


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## Captainmatt29

If you cannot provide proof then they arent black its quite simple.

If they are there will be a way to prove this, get an optician to inspect the eye as im sure they can tell you their real color.


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## InternetReptile

This thread is very interesting... I've been having a look at ours and at first glance they look black.

The male, who is lighter generally, def has red eyes in the right light

The females eys look very black and she is a darker colour too (incubation temps at play I'm sure), but even with her you can see a tinge of red in the right light.

My thoughts; they are all red eyes, but different degrees of darkness, some so much so that they appear black.


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## nuttybabez

messengermatt, that is a very short sighted way of looking at things. You asked for proof, when I said, ok how? you have come up with a very negative response. Now come on, you asked for proof now tell me how I am supposed to provide it?


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## forgottenEntity

Proof as requested (for those that didnt read page 2 where I had already posted it.... )

By all means, zoom in - go to the point where each single pixel is a nice big square on your screen... lighten the images... even red enhance within the realms of sensibility (so as not to intentionally over red-wash the image)... I did the lot.

Rainwater Supersnow Patternless....










Tremper Albino Supersnow...


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## InternetReptile

Please tell me if I'm missing something here, but how can an albino gecko have black eyes? If that isn't possible, does that not "prove" the eyes must be a red?

I may be missing something as I say, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and tell me why,


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## Captainmatt29

I will consult my vet tomorow as he has equipment for looking at eyes close up. If he says they are a extremely dark red then the theory will be blown out of the water. The snow you gave to marc is not black eyed but dark brown too.


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## nuttybabez

ok so now we have black eyed SS Albinos that you are saying must in fact be ruby eyed and also a Supersnow, who are reknowned for having black eyes but has brown? Hmm... I think I am going to step out of this one before I start getting annoyed.


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## forgottenEntity

GeckoMorphs said:


> Please tell me if I'm missing something here, but how can an albino gecko have black eyes? If that isn't possible, does that not "prove" the eyes must be a red?
> 
> I may be missing something as I say, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and tell me why,


The theory would be that the albino trait doesnt always manage to prevent pigment production enough in the eye to actually cause redness in supersnow albinos. Certainly the rainwater albino ss patty I have is as black as anything (piccy in my previous post)... We also have the cool cooked Tremper Albino SS that came over on the same shipment from RT as the red eyed one you have - piccy again in previous post I made above. Certainly cant see any signs of red colour at all. Could be temp dependant... don't know. All I do know is -those are very black, lol


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## MrMike

nuttybabez said:


> Gazz, I guess some people like to show off their leos and get great pics of them and others just can't be bothered...makes me wonder what you do actually have in your collection and how many leos you have *actually* owned, rather than read and dreamed about. And no I was not saying this makes you any more knowledgeable, just less practically experienced thats all. You seem very dismissive of other peoples successes and experiences. Good luck on your A1 search. Them that look for perfection will realise this doesn't exist, but hey I am sure you are happy with your leos and I am happy with mine.


This is a little bit out of line imo. Nothing to do with the thread. The info coming out in this thread is excellent, lets not let it descend into an arguement please.

We are all here to learn surely?


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## Sarah-Jayne

I dont really understand how there can be any question of ANY albino leo having black eyes as they are physically incapable of producing the black colour. If they can produce black then they can't be albino. The eyes may be so dark that they look black but its impossible for them to actually be black. There are many colours that can look black if dark enough.


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## MrMike

Sarah-Jayne said:


> I dont really understand how there can be any question of ANY albino leo having black eyes as they are physically incapable of producing the black colour. If they can produce black then they can't be albino. The eyes may be so dark that they look black but its impossible for them to actually be black. There are many colours that can look black if dark enough.


That is how I understand it. However, genetics can be weird. As Gazz said in an earlier post, the albino strains in leopard geckos only reduce the amount of melanin produced, so it could be possible that the eclipse seen in Supersnows (not the RAPTOR line eclipse) could act differently.

Maybe the eyes are a deep brown/red. However, the pics posted do look black (I have had a really close look), and I have no reason to doubt what people are saying.

Maybe I should be invited round to see all these black eyed supersnow albinos :whistling2: (I'll bring the coat with deep pockets )


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## Mal

Incubation temperature must have some effect on eye colouration. A few weeks back I hatched out a couple of male sunglows. They both had red eyes. I spoke to another breeder about these and was told not to get too excited yet as they often revert to normal (T) albino eye colouration after a few days. Sure enough, 5 days later they looked just like any (T) albino.

Im pretty convinced cooler incubation temps turn the red eye of the albino SS to the deepest ruby, so deep it looks black. It would be interesting to find out if the breeders producing red eyed albino SS found they were more common in males. Some breeders move eggs incubating for female after 3 weeks to higher temp incubators to improve colour. This would reduce the amount of chocolating on the albino SS and presumably contribute to the lighter red eye. It would be interesting to find out from breeders who move eggs up, whether they have a greater incidence of red eyes.

I know when I first got my JMG female albino SS that I was surprised she had black eyes. I did search for info about it and found a bit that said black eyes were common in (T) albino SS. As is often the case you cant find something like this when you want it. However I will keep looking and post it here when I do find it.


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## Lisasgeckonursery

This is an interesting read, i'm still convinced that their eyes are red and that lower incubation temps just make them appear black.


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## InternetReptile

Have to say I agree with that too. Even the very best SSA's i've seen have very dark eyes in real life (I.e. Not on a photo), so it would appear to me that it makes sense for a much darker red to appear black

I will set up another incubator and play around with incubation temps when I get a chance as it'd be interesting to see.

I take it noone on here has incubated at 80 for 3 weeks then 90?


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## Lisasgeckonursery

I need to set up another incubator to try this as i've been reading up a lot on how incubation temps effect pigmentation.


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## funky1

GeckoMorphs said:


> I take it noone on here has incubated at 80 for 3 weeks then 90?


 
If anyone has done that kind of of jump I`d like to know as well - if you did 80 to 90 straight off, there`s not much doubt that all`s anyone will end up with is one dead egg!!! (please don`t try this at home ).


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## forgottenEntity

funky1 said:


> If anyone has done that kind of of jump I`d like to know as well - if you did 80 to 90 straight off, there`s not much doubt that all`s anyone will end up with is one dead egg!!! (please don`t try this at home ).


It has been done... and it doesn't result in dead eggs. Well, at least not most of the time. Whether or not the mortality rate is higher doing it that way, I don't know.


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## SleepyD

GeckoMorphs said:


> I take it noone on here has incubated at 80 for 3 weeks then 90?


talking with other breeders both here in the UK and in the states there would appear to be a higher chance of deformed/dead hatchlings/embryos ~ generally temps are kept stable through-out the incubation period whether 'bating for males or females



about_a_girluk said:


> i've been reading up a lot on how incubation temps effect pigmentation.


it's usually more noticable in albino's but to be honest I've found that parentage etc can play just a big a part (if not bigger) in colour/pigmentation as temps ~ have had really bright ones at low temps and dark hatchlings at high temps ~ plus while high temps may affect the pigmentation these 'forced' changes are not passed on to any future offspring whereas genetic changes are


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## Captainmatt29

Well we have a super snow from nuttybabez and a super snow from sarah-jayne and yes they look black however on a much much more detailed inspection looking at the eyes surface etc and pigments they are just a very dark brown.

It can be alot to do with how the light reflects off them to how black they will actually look, turn them into the sun they are brown turn them into the shade and they are black.

If an Albino has really produced black eyes then it isnt an albino think of it as a half cast leopard gecko. so to speak.

As you can get geckos that are 50 / 50


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## MrMike

messengermatt said:


> Well we have a super snow from nuttybabez and a super snow from sarah-jayne and yes they look black however on a much much more detailed inspection looking at the eyes surface etc and pigments they are just a very dark brown.
> 
> It can be alot to do with how the light reflects off them to how black they will actually look


Supersnow or Supersnow albino? If so what strain albino?


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## Captainmatt29

They are just supersnows but still people say they are supposed to be black and they arent.


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## Lisasgeckonursery

SleepyD said:


> plus while high temps may affect the pigmentation these 'forced' changes are not passed on to any future offspring whereas genetic changes are


 i see what you mean in the Herpetoculture of leopard geckos it was interesting to see how incubation even effected the percentage of dark pigment on normal siblings making them more like hypos although they called it "unlocking the geckos true potential" rather than forcing a change :lol2:


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## Captainmatt29

about_a_girluk said:


> i see what you mean in the Herpetoculture of leopard geckos it was interesting to see how incubation even effected the percentage of dark pigment on normal siblings making them more like hypos although they called it "unlocking the geckos true potential" rather than forcing a change :lol2:


I like your way of thinking there :2thumb:


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## MrMike

messengermatt said:


> They are just supersnows but still people say they are supposed to be black and they arent.


Just checked ours, his are definately black (as far as I can tell). Melanin (well eumelanin, a form of melanin) is responsible for brown/black pigment, i think. That would explain the brown colour.


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## LoveGeckos.com

I'm not fully convinced on the incubation temperature theory. All but two of my TUG/Mack Super Snow Albinos were incubated at a high temp, and I cannot see any red in their eyes, although they are some of the pinkest geckos I have seen, now that could be temperature.

Normally with a deep dark red eye, I can tweak it in Photoshop; normally just increasing the brightness is enough. However, since the starting value for black is 0, jet black, it doesn't matter what you do; you will end up with black.

Now it may be that the camera is picking up the eye as black and they are a real deep red, but I cannot see any red.

Anyhow, Black or Red, they are still Super Snow Albinos ;-)

Mr Mike, I don't live a million miles away and every now and then pop down your way for a day out. If you want to see a Super Snow Albino with black eyes, I am sure we can arrange it  Would could even debate all day, no they are black, well I think they are red, black, red, black red .... lol .... BLACK! I win


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## Captainmatt29

*Albino Strains (Tremper, Rainwater, and Bell)*
There are three strains of albino leopard gecko, each named after the last name of the person who first produced the particular strain. Las Vegas albino is another name for the Rainwater strain. All three strains are recessive traits, therefore hets can be created for these traits. All three strains of albino are sensitive to bright lights, and will close their eyes tightly if exposed to bright light. Additionally, many will not feel comfortable eating during the daytime due to their sensitivity to light.

Each of these strains are genetically incompatible, meaning if you were to breed a Tremper albino with a Rainwater or Bell albino all babies would be normal looking (spotted) and heterozygous for both strains of albino. Apparently there are three different ways to create an albino!
Every so often I get an email from someone who purchased an albino leopard but was not told the identity of the particular strain. There are some differences between the three strains, but often it is not possible to wager more than an educated guess. Below I will discuss the differences between the three strains. 

*Tremper Strain:
*
Tremper albinos were the first of the albino strains to hit the market, and are by far the most common. Tremper albinos have the unfortunate stereotype of being dark (often brown), which is likely more a factor of incubation temperature than genetics. (See section on the effect of incubation temperature on coloration). I have seen Tremper albinos that are so dark that I have had to question whether they were indeed albinos at all! Some breeders market these darker Trempers as the “Mocha Strain”. However, I have seen (and own) plenty of Tremper albinos that are bright white or pink, certainly not deserving of the brown stereotype. 
Eye color is variable between Tremper albinos, ranging from slightly lighter than a “normal” (non-albino) leopard gecko eye, to bright, bright red in young animals incubated at a high temperature (90 degrees F). I have observed the red eye color of young animals often changes as the animal ages to the normal beige color of the typical Tremper albino. 

*Rainwater Strain:*

Rainwater albinos are the next most common of the three albino strains after Tremper albinos. Rainwater albinos are often thought of as pinker than other strains. I have observed this to not always be true, as Tremper albinos can be bright pink or white if incubated at a high temperature. I have experimented with the effect of incubation temperature on coloration of baby Rainwater albinos, and observed only a slight difference between babies incubated at 80° or 90° F. 

*Bell Strain:*

The Bell strain of albino is still relatively rare in the leopard gecko world. Bell albinos often have a high contrast, with “pink” areas often much darker than other albino strains. Eye color is the reddest of the three strains, staying red or pinkish even in adult animals. 

*Patternless*
The patternless trait was the first of the leopard gecko recessive traits to be discovered. Patternless leopards were first marketed as “leucistic”, although blizzards are the true leucistic leopard gecko. Once blizzards were discovered “leucistic” leopards were renamed to patternless, although I still see some people using the antiquated name. The patternless trait is recessive and hets can be created.
Patternless animals are devoid of black spotting. Ironically baby patternless hatch with a pattern of darker blotches on a lighter yellow body coloration. This pattern often fades away as they age, but may be visible in some adults. Body coloration is often quite variable, ranging from bright neon yellow to a dull chocolate brown. Exceptional individuals have orange “carrot-tail” coloration on at least a part of their tail. The dull chocolate brown patternless may be the result of low incubation temperature or genetics. Eye color is the same color as the “normal” leopard gecko.

*Patternless Albino*
Patternless albinos are one of the newest leopard gecko morphs, and are the result of combining two recessive traits. Hence, patternless albinos are expressing both the patternless and albino traits (both are outwardly visible). The combination of the albino trait with the patternless removes the dark coloration from the patternless, making a bright neon yellow patternless, with a white or pink tail, rather than a purplish or brownish tail in a normal patternless. Many exceptional patternless albinos have carrot-tail coloration in the tail as well. 
The majority of the patternless albinos available today are from the Rainwater strain of albino. It appears the Tremper albino gene does not combine as readily with the patternless gene as the Rainwater gene. The reason for this is unclear, but from conversations with leopard breeders that have attempted this cross it appears only 1 out of a couple hundred of double het (het Tremper albino and het patternless) to double het results in a Tremper patternless albino, although you would expect 1 out of 16 to be a patternless albino. Tremper patternless albinos are becoming more common recently, but are still rarer than Rainwater patternless albinos. The few Tremper patternless albinos I have seen up close don't appear much different than Rainwater patternless albinos.
Young patternless albinos can be differentiated from patternless by having pink heads, rather than dark heads. Since these geckos are expressing the albino gene, eye color is lighter than a normal patternless, and I find this to be the most clear cut way to differentiate a patternless albino from a really nice patternless. The eye color of the gecko in question should be compared to both an albino and a non-albino (“normal” or patternless). Body coloration alone cannot always be used to differentiate patternless from patternless albinos because some nice patternless are as neon yellow as patternless albinos. ​


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## marcgroovyge

Albinos do not have black pigmentation. If you take a pic of a supersnowa eye it is actually a very very dark brown. If you have a albino with a 100% black eye then it should not be classed as a albino strain but only albino patterned


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## SleepyD

about_a_girluk said:


> although they called it "unlocking the geckos true potential" rather than forcing a change :lol2:


or as someone I respect highly commented ~ another euphemism for charging more :whistling2:


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## MrMike

LoveGeckos.com said:


> Anyhow, Black or Red, they are still Super Snow Albinos ;-)


Very true! Still interesting though.



LoveGeckos.com said:


> Mr Mike, I don't live a million miles away and every now and then pop down your way for a day out. If you want to see a Super Snow Albino with black eyes, I am sure we can arrange it  Would could even debate all day, no they are black, well I think they are red, black, red, black red .... lol .... BLACK! I win


We have spoken at a few shows before, however, you probably don't remember me. I'm usually the guy with Sam12345 (Sam) at shows local to here.
Will definately take you up on that offer though


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## forgottenEntity

LoveGeckos.com said:


> Normally with a deep dark red eye, I can tweak it in Photoshop; normally just increasing the brightness is enough. However, since the starting value for black is 0, jet black, it doesn't matter what you do; you will end up with black.
> 
> Now it may be that the camera is picking up the eye as black and they are a real deep red, but I cannot see any red.


A rather simple way to test that theory is to use the flash on your camera (the shots that I have posted on the thread are done with a flash btw)....

Given that the red eye we see isn't due to a red pigment (this is me making an assumption that it works the same in Leos as it does in most other red-eyed animals out there) but due to light that enters the eye being reflected back by blood vessels on/around the retina, making the eyes appear red... The more light you put into the eye, the more likely you are to see a red tint if there is one to be found.

Edit: Erm, but please, anyone reading this... don't go sticking the flash on your camera or a torch or whatever into the eyes of your leos!! If someone did it to me I'd be mighty unhappy... and I am not a light-sensitive albino, who definitely wouldn't like it up close and personal


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## Lisasgeckonursery

SleepyD said:


> or as someone I respect highly commented ~ another euphemism for charging more :whistling2:


Touché sleepyD :lol2: as everyone knows Tremper is a king when it comes to marketing.


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## marcgroovyge

forgottenEntity said:


> A rather simple way to test that theory is to use the flash on your camera (the shots that I have posted on the thread are done with a flash btw)....
> 
> Given that the red eye we see isn't due to a red pigment (this is me making an assumption that it works the same in Leos as it does in most other red-eyed animals out there) but due to light that enters the eye being reflected back by blood vessels on/around the retina, making the eyes appear red... The more light you put into the eye, the more likely you are to see a red tint if there is one to be found.


Only if the light hits the eye directly so it can bounce back. Otherwise if the picture is taken on a angle and the red still shows then the eye is red and not blood vessels reflecting back


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## forgottenEntity

marcgroovyge said:


> Only if the light hits the eye directly so it can bounce back. Otherwise if the picture is taken on a angle and the red still shows then the eye is red and not blood vessels reflecting back


You're making a reference to how human eyes work there? For "red eye" to be seen on pictures of us people... the shot needs to be taken with a flash from an angle infront of the person. Humans aren't albinos though...

Take a REW (red eyed white) rabbit instead.... Now, no camera needed - just day light will do nicely.... you can stand at pretty well any angle to the rabbit such that you can still see the eye and it will appear red. And I can promise you there's no red pigment in a REW's eye - that's entirely down to blood vessel light reflection.


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## marcgroovyge

forgottenEntity said:


> You're making a reference to how human eyes work there? For "red eye" to be seen on pictures of us people... the shot needs to be taken with a flash from an angle infront of the person. Humans aren't albinos though...
> 
> Take a REW (red eyed white) rabbit instead.... Now, no camera needed - just day light will do nicely.... you can stand at pretty well any angle to the rabbit such that you can still see the eye and it will appear red. And I can promise you there's no red pigment in a REW's eye - that's entirely down to blood vessel light reflection.


Then how do you explain how the red pigment is stronger than the black? Plus rabbits are not lizards so its a different ball game again. 

*Albino = no black pigmentation.*


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## Captainmatt29

marcgroovyge said:


> *Albino = no black pigmentation.*


 
Which means that a rainwater albino with black eyes cannot be an albino, and there is albino people lol did you not watch big brother last year.


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## funky1

forgottenEntity said:


> It has been done... and it doesn't result in dead eggs. Well, at least not most of the time. Whether or not the mortality rate is higher doing it that way, I don't know.


Even though this is a little off topic - Unfortunately it quite often does result in dead eggs - if not dead then deformed. Not all of the time granted, but surely it`s much better practice to gradually increase the temps of incubating eggs over a slighty longer time, and as such help safeguard their health and physical prowess - than subject them to such a big temperature rise (and the resulting increased risk) in the hope of brighter colours?!

As said, it`s a whole other thread really, but personally I don`t think advisable to state it doesn`t result in dead eggs. A rise or fall of such magnitude in a short space of time, is surely comparable to that of a powercut - and everyone knows the risks involved with them. But if someone is aware of the complications it can cause - and they still go ahead, then that`s their business entirely.

However, each to their own, suppose we all use slightly different methods and have our own faux balls (that`s how google spells it anyway ). Just wouldn`t want anyone for example, who only had 2 of the most precious eggs in the world - that mean everything to them - to go and bang up their incubator by 10 degrees on the off chance of making something a little more special without being aware of the risks involved.


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## Mal

I knew I had read something about this lol. Ok, its rather long but here goes. Ive copied it from The Learning Center - Leopard Gecko Morphs

*Special Notes About Eye Color*




Recently a number of new morphs, and a couple of new mutations have been released which have an effect upon the eye color of Leopard Geckos. With two distinctly different mutations having an identical effect, an enormous amount of confusion is already present among hobbyists. The information presented here should help clarify this confusion.

*Albinism*
Three distinct forms of albinism are well-established in Leopard Geckos. All three are tyrosinase positive forms, and are so similar in appearance they cannot be separated visually with 100% certainty. It is absolutely critical to be aware which line specimens to be used for breeding programs are from, use of more than one type will result in normal appearing geckos, and if bred together, these may then produce offspring of either or both types. That can be a confusing mess to sort out later!

All three forms of albinism have an effect on eye coloration, although not as consistently as breeders would prefer. Some, but not all, hatchlings have distinct eyes, with reddish pupils and a pink colored iris. *For reasons not understood, some hatchlings will have very dark eyes, almost normal appearing.* It has been postulated by some that temperature plays a role in embryonic eye color development. Others feel some hidden genetic trait is at work. 

Regardless of the reason, it is important to understand that this occurs and that it can be even more pronounced when combined with additional mutations. It is also important to realize that this red coloration will be lost as the animals mature. With growth, the iris thickens and the pinkish color of blood vessels previously showing through the thin cell layers of the iris will be obscured by the solid light golden color of the much thicker mature iris. Most confusion in this regard surrounds the "Blazing Blizzard" which was highly promoted some years ago using artist's renditions of what the expected offspring would look like. a combination of Blizzard and Albino, it was expected these would be a solid white gecko with startlingly solid red eyes. We know now that this is far from the truth, for while some specimens are rather whitish, the vast majority are light cream in color. *As with all albinos, the eye color will vary from a clean light red pupil on a pink iris to a very dark, almost normal appearing eye*.

Same piece of literature regarding Mack Snows/SuperSnows

As with all albinos, the actual color of the eye can vary from light red to near black, as described in the albinism section above. So it's possible to produce one that appears to have *almost solid black eyes*, rather than the desired red


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## Captainmatt29

Mal said:


> As with all albinos, the actual color of the eye can vary from light red to near black, as described in the albinism section above. So it's possible to produce one that appears to have *almost solid black eyes*, rather than the desired red


So bang goes the theory of actual black eyes then because near black isnt black.


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## forgottenEntity

funky1 said:


> Even though this is a little off topic - Unfortunately it quite often does result in dead eggs - if not dead then deformed. Not all of the time granted, but surely it`s much better practice to gradually increase the temps of incubating eggs over a slighty longer time, and as such help safeguard their health and physical prowess - than subject them to such a big temperature rise (and the resulting increased risk) in the hope of brighter colours?!
> 
> As said, it`s a whole other thread really, but personally I don`t think advisable to state it doesn`t result in dead eggs. A rise or fall of such magnitude in a short space of time, is surely comparable to that of a powercut - and everyone knows the risks involved with them. But if someone is aware of the complications it can cause - and they still go ahead, then that`s their business entirely.
> 
> However, each to their own, suppose we all use slightly different methods and have our own faux balls (that`s how google spells it anyway ). Just wouldn`t want anyone for example, who only had 2 of the most precious eggs in the world - that mean everything to them - to go and bang up their incubator by 10 degrees on the off chance of making something a little more special without being aware of the risks involved.


Fair enough  You know more about incubating in that manner than I do. I did actually state...



> It has been done... and it doesn't result in dead eggs. Well, at least not most of the time. Whether or not the mortality rate is higher doing it that way, I don't know.


In other words, I know it can work but whether or not it kills more eggs doing it that way, I didn't know... Now I do


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## forgottenEntity

marcgroovyge said:


> Then how do you explain how the red pigment is stronger than the black? Plus rabbits are not lizards so its a different ball game again.
> 
> *Albino = no black pigmentation.*


For starters, I suggest you read back a few pages again (I have to keep saying that on this thead!!) and read the bit from Gazz with regards to how "albino" in Leopard gecko actually works - that it is NOT a "true" albino because it does not remove all the body pigmentation - Albino Leos still have spotting, just not black/extremely dark brown as per a normal.

Secondly - you are now stating that red is infact a pigmentation? If you go have a read up on how the albino trait works in other species, rather than in Leos... I mentioned REW rabbits because you will find a truck load of info about how the albino traits stops Tyrosinase enzyme production, blocking out all pigment in the eye, causing them to show as red. The enzymes responsible for eye pigment in rabbits is the exact same group as that in Leos.... not a different ball game.

Edit: I just read Mal's snippet...



> With growth, the iris thickens and the pinkish color of blood vessels previously showing through the thin cell layers of the iris will be obscured by the solid light golden color of the much thicker mature iris.




Stating it's not a red pigment.



> As with all albinos, the actual color of the eye can vary from light red to near black, as described in the albinism section above. So it's possible to produce one that appears to have *almost solid black eyes*, rather than the desired red




Fair enough.... obviously it can be so close to black though that it's impossible for the human eye to detect, even on photographs which have been enhanced to try and show any level or redness.... which makes them pretty darn black if every RGB colour value comes up with naff all "R", "G" or "B"


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## LoveGeckos.com

The original post by Tony was an interesting one and one that could have created a healthy debate.

Although, I cannot see a healthy debate going on, I see this heading for "I'm right",”You are wrong".

Unfortunately people cannot think outside the box. Even the most respected experts in their field can be wrong. Take Stephen Hawkins, his theory on Black Holes; people have followed his findings for years. However, some of his theories regarding Black Holes have been blown out of the water in recent years, and that was by himself. At least he showed that he is open to new ideas, he continued researching and found out more, and then adapted his findings. All I am saying is not everything is black and red (White).

I haven't fully committed to saying my gecko has black eyes, I am still happy to discuss and see where we get. They may all end up being dark red eyes that look black, but at least let’s entertain the idea.

People seem to have the mentality of let’s get one over the over person, lets flex our muscles and see who will win, why?

What happened to teamwork, flexibility, and open to new ideas? I guess some people can only go by what they know and read.

I can just imagine an expert in genetics/geckos down the line says "Super Snow Albinos can have black and Red Eyes" and then everyone turning around and saying I told you so, even though they are all saying Red now.

Let's all get on, debate and see what we find out.


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## Captainmatt29

LoveGeckos.com said:


> The original post by Tony was an interesting one and one that could have created a healthy debate.
> 
> Although, I cannot see a healthy debate going on, I see this heading for "I'm right",”You are wrong".
> 
> Unfortunately people cannot think outside the box. Even the most respected experts in their field can be wrong. Take Stephen Hawkins, his theory on Black Holes; people have followed his findings for years. However, some of his theories regarding Black Holes have been blown out of the water in recent years, and that was by himself. At least he showed that he is open to new ideas, he continued researching and found out more, and then adapted his findings. All I am saying is not everything is black and red (White).
> 
> I haven't fully committed to saying my gecko has black eyes, I am still happy to discuss and see where we get. They may all end up being dark red eyes that look black, but at least let’s entertain the idea.
> 
> People seem to have the mentality of let’s get one over the over person, lets flex our muscles and see who will win, why?
> 
> What happened to teamwork, flexibility, and open to new ideas? I guess some people can only go by what they know and read.
> 
> I can just imagine an expert in genetics/geckos down the line says "Super Snow Albinos can have black and Red Eyes" and then everyone turning around and saying I told you so, even though they are all saying Red now.
> 
> Let's all get on, debate and see what we find out.


Ok so you start the debate and we will reply :2thumb:


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## gazz

nuttybabez said:


> Gazz, I guess some people like to show off their leos and get great pics of them and others just can't be bothered...makes me wonder what you do actually have in your collection and how many leos you have *actually* owned, rather than read and dreamed about. And no I was not saying this makes you any more knowledgeable, just less practically experienced thats all. You seem very dismissive of other peoples successes and experiences. Good luck on your A1 search. Them that look for perfection will realise this doesn't exist, but hey I am sure you are happy with your leos and I am happy with mine.


I started on reptiles when i was 13 i'm now 29.I don't just have leo's and deffo don't have what i'd like.This is due to a valid reason and i can't have number i used to have.But every thing i lean't in past and presant years.I don't have what i had 10 year back but i'm still very much in the game and my knowledge is't dinosaur grade.Sorry if this comes across as big headed but i know my stuff.Beleave me money wise i could very likly buy what you twice over but physically this is not possible.And beleave me no one is more p:censor:d about this than me.But life's a b:censor:h and all you can do is get on with it.


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## Mal

I think this could simply be summed up as albino SS leos eyes *can* range in colour from red to those that *appear* to be black. I have no doubt that my JMG albino SS with apparently black eyes is actually 100% albino. I have no doubt that the offspring from her as shown in early pictures are 100 %albino. Their eye colours range from red in the higher temp incubated males to appearing almost black in the lower temp incubated females. They are all however albino. I would be interested to hear from others that are actually breeding albino (T) Super Snows to find out if they are producing all red eyed hatchlings. One of the most respected breeders on here told me how pleased he was the other day with the fact he had managed to hatch a couple of red eyed boys. Apart from that statement giving a bit of support to the incubation temp theory it also indicated to me that red eys arent as common as we think. Otherwise it would have been wow..Ive hatched out a black eyed albino.

Just as a side interest to this. Channel 4 had a programme on a couple of months back about albino children. One of the kids featured was medically classed as albino but he did not have albino eyes. Nature even throws quirks amongst its quirks. ( I dont mean quirk in an offensive way)

Im sure others will add to this thread but I would like to say thanks to Funky for starting it. It has been interesting and informative.


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## funky1

forgottenEntity said:


> Fair enough  You know more about incubating in that manner than I do. I did actually state...
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, I know it can work but whether or not it kills more eggs doing it that way, I didn't know... Now I do


Haha, no problem pal - I wasn`t meaning to correct or anything like that, just didn`t want anyone who possibly had struggled to get 2 eggs all season bumping up the temps without being aware that it`s a risk is all! There`s no bigger heartbreaker than a fully formed hatchling coming out all beautiful and bright (planned), but dead as a dodo (unplanned!) No worries at all anyroad.


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## marcgroovyge

forgottenEntity said:


> Secondly - you are now stating that red is infact a pigmentation? If you go have a read up on how the albino trait works in other species, rather than in Leos... I mentioned REW rabbits because you will find a truck load of info about how the albino traits stops Tyrosinase enzyme production, blocking out all pigment in the eye, causing them to show as red. The enzymes responsible for *eye pigment in rabbits* is the exact same group as that in Leos.... *not a different ball game*.


A rabbits eye is much larger than a leos eye so it will be more visibally noticable of any red showing from the eye also leos are night dewllers so they have different eyes to rabbits anyway. Where as people keep saying *near black colourations *will be found on a albino leo and not actually black.


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## forgottenEntity

Mal said:


> I think this could simply be summed up as albino SS leos eyes *can* range in colour from red to those that *appear* to be black. I have no doubt that my JMG albino SS with apparently black eyes is actually 100% albino. I have no doubt that the offspring from her as shown in early pictures are 100 %albino. Their eye colours range from red in the higher temp incubated males to appearing almost black in the lower temp incubated females. They are all however albino. I would be interested to hear from others that are actually breeding albino (T) Super Snows to find out if they are producing all red eyed hatchlings. One of the most respected breeders on here told me how pleased he was the other day with the fact he had managed to hatch a couple of red eyed boys. Apart from that statement giving a bit of support to the incubation temp theory it also indicated to me that red eys arent as common as we think. Otherwise it would have been wow..Ive hatched out a black eyed albino.


Agreed.... I will add to it a little, well, already did a long time ago in a page a long way away... well, number 5 to be exact.... 



> You are basing your views of what a Supersnow Albino's eyes should do on what you see a RAPTORs eyes do. Yes, if a RAPTOR shows the solid eyed trait instead of snake eyes, it's eyes WILL be red. However, as I said in detail back on page 2 I think it was.... you will notice that not all RAPTORs have bright red eyes - some have darker red / ruby eyes. It is my belief that the albino trait is able to limit Tyrosinase enzyme production in true Eclipse gene carriers (RAPTOR for example) more readily than it can in Supersnows.
> 
> So, taking the idea from the RAPTOR of bright red through to ruby as possible colours let's take Supersnows instead where, in some cases, albino limits the pigmentation a lot... Meaning hardly any dark pigmentation and bright red eyes... in other cases it barely touches the production of it at all... to the point where you can not see any reduction in pigmentation - so, eyes are dark still... black in the cases where pigmentation isnt reduced as such.
> 
> Just a theory (about Tyrosinase production being more easily stopped in Eclipse carriers than Supersnows) but, it would fit with what you see.... Given lots of people out there have *visibly solid black eyed* Supersnow Albinos


To add to that - although again, I think I might have said it on another post somewhere in the thread but can't remember where, lol... Either that or someone else said it... 

It would appear that in Supersnow Albinos... Rainwater albino has the hardest time blocking eye pigment... Tremper can be somewhat variable (visibly black through to reasonably red)... Bell tends to be the most red.


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## forgottenEntity

marcgroovyge said:


> A rabbits eye is much larger than a leos eye so it will be more visibally noticable of any red showing from the eye


I'm not entirely sure what that's got to do with what I was saying about why their eyes appear red (rabbits and leos).



> also leos are night dewllers so they have different eyes to rabbits anyway.


Don't take this as me being nasty... Do I take it you don't have any rabbits? You know where they live in the wild?



> Where as people keep saying *near black colourations *will be found on a albino leo and not actually black.


Quite a few people are saying they have absolutely visibly black eyed SSAs... even when helped out with flash photography. I just think it's possible with RW and Tremper SSAs for the pigment reduction to be so tiny that it is a "near as" none existant reduction... so, eyes appear visibly black - even under flash light, even if you take the pic, brighten it, zoom in and then check every single individual pixel's RGB values.


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## marcgroovyge

forgottenEntity said:


> I'm not entirely sure what that's got to do with what I was saying about why their eyes appear red (rabbits and leos).


But the eye isnt black if its a albino. It will only appear to be black...

I get where your coming from but albinos lack black pigmentation. If it has black on it then its not actually a albino. Its a different strain


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## marcgroovyge

forgottenEntity said:


> Don't take this as me being nasty... Do I take it you don't have any rabbits? You know where they live in the wild?


 
Actually for your information there like 30+ just down the road that all come out during the day. They all live on a huge round a bout so not all rabbits are night dwellers. And also FYI even if you own a rabbit..... they come out during the day or have you not been into pets at home? I dont think they would sell many if they was all hiding. But that is going off the topic. All I wanted to state was they are not all night dwellers so sorry if this is taken the wrong way


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## forgottenEntity

marcgroovyge said:


> Actually for your information there like 30+ just down the road that all come out during the day. They all live on a huge round a bout so not all rabbits are night dwellers. And also FYI even if you own a rabbit..... they come out during the day or have you not been into pets at home? I dont think they would sell many if they was all hiding. But that is going off the topic. All I wanted to state was they are not all night dwellers so sorry if this is taken the wrong way


Ho hum.... We have a room dedicated to rabbits here... we breed them on a very small scale. I know pets at home very well - we used to take on some of their rescue rabbits.



> also leos are night dewllers so they have different eyes to rabbits anyway.


In the wild, how do they see when in their burrows then? Which was the point I was trying to make. You were saying they have different eyes to leos because Leos are night dwellers.... erm.... see my point?

Just forget the rabbits ever got a mention - I was trying to explain about how the red colour works because you were talking camera angles and then red pigmentation. I was just using them as a better example than a human eye as to why red eyes look red.


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## Mal

Just to throw a spanner in the works. I just looked in the incubator where all my previous albino SS hatchlings with apparently black eyes had hatched. Guess what.......another albino SS hatchling this time with red eyes. The temperature settings are unchanged.


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## marcgroovyge

Mal said:


> Just to throw a spanner in the works. I just looked in the incubator where all my previous albino SS hatchlings with apparently black eyes had hatched. Guess what.......another albino SS hatchling this time with red eyes. The temperature settings are unchanged.


:lol2: Thats really cool!


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## Captainmatt29

Mal said:


> Just to throw a spanner in the works. I just looked in the incubator where all my previous albino SS hatchlings with apparently black eyes had hatched. Guess what.......another albino SS hatchling this time with red eyes. The temperature settings are unchanged.


Very nice so this means that the temps make no difference?


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## SleepyD

Mal said:


> Just to throw a spanner in the works. I just looked in the incubator where all my previous albino SS hatchlings with apparently black eyes had hatched. Guess what.......another albino SS hatchling this time with red eyes. The temperature settings are unchanged.


hey nice one Mal :2thumb:


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## forgottenEntity

SleepyD said:


> hey nice one Mal :2thumb:


That backs up what you've seen doesn't it?


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## gazz

Mal said:


> Just to throw a spanner in the works. I just looked in the incubator where all my previous albino SS hatchlings with apparently black eyes had hatched. Guess what.......another albino SS hatchling this time with red eyes. The temperature settings are unchanged.


What temperature was they set ?.According to Ron tremper incubate at 80f for female all will be dark and female.Incubate at 90f for male all willl be light and male.So i can only conclude anywhere in between 80f & 90f you'll get a mix of dark and light.Male and female and both sex's being a mix of dark and light.


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## MrMike

Woah, this thread has moved on in a few hours.

As has been said, lets not make this into a chest beating thread. Lots of excellent information in here, it has definately made me think differently about a few things.

If the albinism exhibited in Tremepr, Bell and RW strains only limits the melanin production, and not stops it completely, then that would explain what people are seeing. Is this right?


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## Sarah-Jayne

MrMike said:


> Woah, this thread has moved on in a few hours.
> 
> As has been said, lets not make this into a chest beating thread. Lots of excellent information in here, it has definately made me think differently about a few things.
> 
> If the albinism exhibited in Tremepr, Bell and RW strains only limits the melanin production, and not stops it completely, then that would explain what people are seeing. Is this right?



Not really, if its reduced it still wont be black lol only very dark brown or very dark red

I assume that albino leopard geckos are not really albino? if this is the case then people really shouldn't be selling them as something they are not


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## Captainmatt29

So to conclude albinos do not exist which means from now on my leos will be sold as

Bell Leopard Geckos, Tremper Leopard Geckos and Rainwaters.


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## SleepyD

Sarah-Jayne said:


> I assume that albino leopard geckos are not really albino? if this is the case then people really shouldn't be selling them as something they are not


given how the genes, pigment cells etc work then albino leo's *are* albino and *can* be called albino too ..... albinoism isn't just a total lack of melanin; it also has varying degrees and has even been known in some cases to affect the skin etc in patches as opposed to onblock where other body patches aren't affected as much ~ there's a list of particulars around which I'll dig out later http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrin~ also is worth bearing in mind that a 'red eyes' is not a garenteed affect of albinoism as quite often blue eyes occur


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## gazz

messengermatt said:


> So to conclude albinos do not exist which means from now on my leos will be sold as
> 
> Bell Leopard Geckos, Tremper Leopard Geckos and Rainwaters.


All three leo strains are T+ Abinos(Tyrosinase Positive albino) it exhibit an inability to complete the synthesis of melanin.Colour with reduced/absence of black pigment.Is replaced with shades of brown.but can produce other melanin related pigments such as various shades of brown grey & red. 

This differs from T- Albinos(Tyrosinase negitive albino) so in the areas that would normally be black or brown it will be typically white.And red orange will apear inhanced.

Examples 

A Caramel royal python is a T+ albino.









A albino in truth sud be Amel royal python is a T- albino.










Then there is the ALBINO the whole White/pink red eyed deal.Picture below is not one but it's the closest i coould find.A true albino would look like the blow with full pink/red eyes and will be a breed true simple recssive trait not a combo morph. 









T+ albino that's what all three strains of leo's are can not express black BUT can express brown in it's darkest form.


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## nuttybabez

LoveGeckos - You make some very good points here.

I am not reading or replying this thread any more - there is so much male chauvanist bravado and absolute refusal to accept anyone else's opinion but their own and I can't be bothered. There are some very narrow minded people here. Not to mention arrogant in some cases aswell. I just can't be bothered - I keep myself away from poisonous people, they ain't good for anything. And I don't care if you think this is out of order or not - its my opinion and I believe we have freedom of speech in this country whether my comments are on topic or not! I calll a spade a spade, thats just me. Why bother fighting over this? Does it really matter so much in your life? Me I have better things to do....see ya!


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## Captainmatt29

nuttybabez said:


> LoveGeckos - You make some very good points here.
> 
> I am not reading or replying this thread any more - there is so much male chauvanist bravado and absolute refusal to accept anyone else's opinion but their own and I can't be bothered. There are some very narrow minded people here. Not to mention arrogant in some cases aswell. I just can't be bothered - I keep myself away from poisonous people, they ain't good for anything. And I don't care if you think this is out of order or not - its my opinion and I believe we have freedom of speech in this country whether my comments are on topic or not! I calll a spade a spade, thats just me. Why bother fighting over this? Does it really matter so much in your life? Me I have better things to do....see ya!


hmmm well that would be aimed at me, marcgroovyge and a few others.

At the end of the day we all gave our views and you just left a totally uneeded response which was both rude and offensive.

Gazz your explanation has been by far the best one relating to the thread


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## marcgroovyge

gazz said:


> T+ albino that's what all three strains of leo's are can not express black BUT can express brown in it's darkest form.


Thank you Gazz! I have been struggling to word it but you got it in one! : victory:


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## Captainmatt29

marcgroovyge said:


> Thank you Gazz! I have been struggling to word it but you got it in one! : victory:


Question is now are there only T+ leos ?


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## marcgroovyge

Yes. No, complete white with red eyes T+'s are known of by cross breeding morphs to create the same affect as a T- would create yet it is not a T-


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## Captainmatt29

i'd love to see a 100% white leopard gecko, im sure its being worked on and ron trempers green leos are stunning.


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## gazz

messengermatt said:


> Question is now are there only T+ leos ?


Yes there only T+ albino.All other albino stem from these three in there combos.

Onless ofcorse some one has some T- albino that they think are just incubated high leo's.

A T- albino leo would look around the picture below.But would have pink/red eye always.
And never go dark and if breed to a Dark Talbino or talbino in general would give normal double HET offspring i'd imagion.









And we all still wait for a true albino a one gene albino.That would look like a Albino blizzard the really white ones with pink/red eyes always but is NOT a combo morph like the albino blizzard is.


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## Captainmatt29

i was just talking about how cool it would be to seek a pure white albino


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## MrMike

messengermatt said:


> *i'd love to see a 100% white leopard gecko,* im sure its being worked on and ron trempers green leos are stunning.


Supersnow Blazing blizzard are completely white. Well, the ones I have seen anyway.


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## Captainmatt29

MrMike said:


> Supersnow Blazing blizzard are completely white. Well, the ones I have seen anyway.


Does that mean they could be T- ?


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## marcgroovyge

abit like this diablo blanco?









*Diablo Blanco *

The Diablo Blanco is a combination morph created by Ron Tremper in 2006. The Diablo Blanco morph is a combination of the Blizzard trait and the RAPTORs. Essentially, a Diablo Blanco is a combination of 4 recessive traits, Blizzards, Tremper Albinos, Tremper Eclipse, and Patternless Stripe. The appearance of the Diablo Blancos is a white bodied Leopard Gecko with solid Red Eyes.


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## Sarah-Jayne

messengermatt said:


> Does that mean they could be T- ?


Nope because its a combination morph, T- would be a single recessive gene


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## Captainmatt29

Sarah-Jayne said:


> Nope because its a combination morph, T- would be a single recessive gene


So is it possible to create a T- ? i have heard that you can get pure white super snows


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## gazz

messengermatt said:


> So is it possible to create a T- ? i have heard that you can get pure white super snows


The only reason you get a T+ albino that's pure white in the super snow blizzard.Is coz the blizzard gene take the pattern with a degree of color.Then the Super snow gene take all the color.There there nothing other than in the eye for the T+ albino to gell with.

Make sence ?.


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## Captainmatt29

gazz said:


> The only reason you get a T+ albino that's pure white in the super snow blizzard.Is coz the blizzard gene take the pattern with a degree of color.Then the Super snow gene take all the color.There there nothing other than in the eye for the T+ albino to gell with.
> 
> Make sence ?.


Yup makes sense


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## mack-bell

marcgroovyge said:


> Diablo Blanco is a combination of 4 recessive traits, Blizzards, Tremper Albinos, Tremper Eclipse, and Patternless Stripe. The appearance of the Diablo Blancos is a white bodied Leopard Gecko with solid Red Eyes.


I don´t think the Patternless stripe gen is fully involved in the Diablo Blanco.
Tremper wrote to a guy that DB*Raptor gives Banded Raptors so he personally told us the gen is not "Homozygous" in the DB.
Also I´m not sure if the Patty stripe gen is simple rezessive as I never saw this gen act like a simple rezessive gen in all my breeding time and numberous Raptor babies.

Ahh and my MSST babies also always have very dark eyes instead of the MSSB babies they have glowing ruby reds


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## Mal

mack-bell said:


> Ahh and my MSST babies also always have very dark eyes instead of the MSSB babies they have glowing ruby reds


Can I just clarify what your saying in your post please. MSST..are you saying Mack Super Snow Tremper babies with MSSB relating to Bell ? If so Im glad another albino (T) SS breeder has similar results.


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## mack-bell

Ohh yeah, I´m lazy so I write only in short^^
MSS for Mack SUper Snow and T for Tremper while B stand for Bell.
As I never had any Super SNow Blizzards its fine for me but I always forget about the fact, that their are BLizzard breeders outside *G*

As said what I found is that Super Trempers have very dark red eyes and Super Bells have glowing eyes.
I dunno about the Las Vegas version but I´ll ask a friend of mine.


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## Big Red One

good 'eavans - just checked this thread after a few days 'off' and it's like it's gone off on one !

All very good 'food for thought' and has had me thinking.... One of the reasons for a forum this is, plenty of debate and ideas ! Good going guys....

I was of the opinion that absoloutely no black could show in an albino's eyes but there's some weird oddness occuring at the moment with eyes, so for now I'm sitting back and taking it all in !


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## funky1

Big Red One said:


> ........ so for now I'm sitting back and taking it all in !


I`m with you on that one B.R.O (what an acronym btw - no way did you mean that! ) 
At the beginning of the thread, I had my own firmly held beliefs in place on the topic - and tbh I thought they were pretty much set in stone. After hearing so many impassioned, often plausable responses though, I think that there has got to be a lot more going on than a simple red eye/black eye definitive, certainly when it comes to whether an albino eye could ever, 100% without question be classed as black. 
What has intrigued me the most about it, is at what point is it feasible to catergorically state an eye to be black? Is it when it looks black to the naked eye, when no red can be found even using the latest `photoshop`esque software, or when the level of red (if there even is any) is so low, that it can`t even be detected by a technologically advanced camera?

I also firmly believe that the ones who`ve taken away the most from this thread - and others like it - are the ones who`ve entered with an open mind, have been prepared to belly flop in a bucket of jelly for the sake of serenity (though as yet un-needed :2thumb or basically, just been prepared to take on board other ppls opinions and experiences in the vain hope of a better understanding generally. Anyroad, that`s my 2 penneth........


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## Big Red One

funky1 said:


> I`m with you on that one B.R.O (what an acronym btw - no way did you mean that! )
> 
> Who didn't ???!!!! :whistling2:
> 
> Anyway - what he said.....! : victory:


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