# Help with papework for import from netherlands



## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

Hi,

I want to buy a ball python from a breeder based in the netherlands, he said that I need to prepare paperwork for the export of the animal from the netherlands and import of animal to the UK. I am not too sure where to find these forms, the closest I could find is an RM01 form for the import of animals to the UK, and I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction for the forms that I need to fill out for the pickup of this animal?

Thanks for your time!


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

You need CITES permits, an export from Holland, and import from the UK. You'll find them on www.gov.uk
Is there any reason why you are buying one from Holland? Plenty of breeders here in the UK.
You will also have to ensure that the snake is brought in via a designated UK CITES port.


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> You need CITES permits, an export from Holland, and import from the UK. You'll find them on www.gov.uk
> Is there any reason why you are buying one from Holland? Plenty of breeders here in the UK.
> You will also have to ensure that the snake is brought in via a designated UK CITES port.


Thanks, it was a very low priced ball python for the genes that it had, and it fit perfectly into my future breeding plans with a female that I currently have.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

spiderhunter679 said:


> Thanks, it was a very low priced ball python for the genes that it had, and it fit perfectly into my future breeding plans with a female that I currently have.


By the time you have paid for the permits amd the relevant import duties, and a DEFRA approved courier to bring it into the UK via an approved port (off the top of my head one is Folkestone, I can't remember the other one), and then to you, it will be cheaper to buy from a UK breeder.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

spiderhunter679 said:


> t was a very low priced ball python for the genes that it had,


There's very often a reason for that. In my experience, the cheapest animal is never the one with the lowest price. 

Just a friendly caution, that's all.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

The forms are on the gov website, they are quite straighforward to fill out. It's the customs clearance that was the difficult part for me.

Do note that export paperwork has to be done by the breeder first before the import paperwork can be applied for. The wait time is about 30 days for each set. Meaning you're looking at 60 days before the animal can be transported.

If you contact Ridgeway courier they are able to organise the import paperwork for you, and collect and courier to your home. Though this all costs.

In my opinion, for a Royal, especially a cheap one, it is not worth the effort.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

spiderhunter679 said:


> Thanks, it was a very low priced ball python for the genes that it had, and it fit perfectly into my future breeding plans with a female that I currently have.


What genes does this cheap Royal have. As others have said there are plenty of UK breeders that probably have a snake with the same genes in the UK. If its cheap then it is likely to be something that isn't new or rare. As others have said, by the time you have gone to all the cost and effort to import one from outside the UK you may be able to get one quicker and cheaper.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

Ports are listed here - Trading or moving CITES-listed specimens through UK ports and airports


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

Malc said:


> What genes does this cheap Royal have. As others have said there are plenty of UK breeders that probably have a snake with the same genes in the UK. If its cheap then it is likely to be something that isn't new or rare. As others have said, by the time you have gone to all the cost and effort to import one from outside the UK you may be able to get one quicker and cheaper.


It's a banana spider axanthic vpi for under 200


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

Apply for CITES permits and certificates to move or trade endangered species


How to apply to import, export or re-export endangered animal and plant species on the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) list.




www.gov.uk








__





Endangered species: apply for an import and export permit


Apply for a permit to import, export or re-export a CITES-listed specimen in or out of the UK.




www.gov.uk





A few more links to get you started! Then you'll need the Netherlands ones from the other side. I have 2 Royals who I've had 17 and 12 years and I live in Ireland at the moment. We plan to return to the UK at some point and I am not looking forward to paperwork day!


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

spiderhunter679 said:


> It's a banana spider axanthic vpi for under 200


If you do it yourself. You're looking at £100ish for both sets of paperwork (does depend if the breeder wants you to pay for the export papers or not). £100ish for the customs clearance using a broker, then 20% VAT on the import. Then travel to collect the animal. 

If you get Ridgeway to do it for you, including the paperwork, it's £100 for the import CITES (does not include export CITES). £120 courier fee. £80 customs fee and then 20% VAT. These are the prices they quoted me last month. 

Seems like a lot of hassle for an animal that also has a deleterious gene.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

spiderhunter679 said:


> It's a banana spider axanthic vpi for under 200


This one

VPI Axanthic Banana Spider Ball Python by Nuyten Reptiles - MorphMarket - £175

The specific Axanthic does limit the availability in the UK. Was it the specific genes you wanted or the price that grabbed your attention ?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

spiderhunter679 said:


> Thanks, it was a very low priced ball python for the genes that it had, and it fit perfectly into my future breeding plans with a female that I currently have.


Does your female have the VPI axanthic gene? 
My understanding is that vpi axanthic is only compatible with other vpi axanthic


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

Malc said:


> This one
> 
> VPI Axanthic Banana Spider Ball Python by Nuyten Reptiles - MorphMarket - £175
> 
> The specific Axanthic does limit the availability in the UK. Was it the specific genes you wanted or the price that grabbed your attention ?


Yes it was this, I wanted it for the genes and the low price was just a bonus.


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> Does your female have the VPI axanthic gene?
> My understanding is that vpi axanthic is only compatible with other vpi axanthic


Female is firefly het axanthic


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## Jibbajabba (Jan 31, 2011)

You likely triple the cost once you added it all up and then it isn't even guaranteed he survives the trip. I'd also ask for a video to be honest to see how much the Spider gene pushes through with all its 'goodness' (i.e. wobble). 

Pretty snake - but huge risk imho ...


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

spiderhunter679 said:


> Female is firefly het axanthic


Is she VPI Axanthic ? - I'm not 100% sure, but seem to recall that not all of the Axanthic lines were compatible with each other 



> Both parents must carry the gene and the zygote must receive a copy from each. But because these lines are incompatible, breeding a Jolliff Axanthic with an MJ or a TSK with a VPI Axanthic will produce a clutch of normal-looking balls which carry one copy of each line.











Axanthic Ball Python Morph Guide - Reptile Advisor


This guide covers everything you need to know about the Axanthic ball python morph including genetics and care tips.




www.reptileadvisor.com


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

Malc said:


> Is she VPI Axanthic ? - I'm not 100% sure, but seem to recall that not all of the Axanthic lines were compatible with each other
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, het VPI axanthic. TBH I didn't even know that the other lines were compatible at all, may have to do some research into that...


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

spiderhunter679 said:


> Female is firefly het axanthic


Which axanthic gene though? Vpi is ONLY compatible with VPI. So if you paired an axanthic with a VPI axanthic you get (and I believe this is correct) animals that are double het for axanthic and VPI axanthic, but will not be visually axanthic. 
Unless you have a VPI axanthic then the royal you are looking to get is kind of useless.
I'm sure you can get banana spider axanthic or even het axanthic here.
You may also be interested to know that the spider gene is generally frowned upon now, with sales of any specimen containing the spider gene banned by UK show organisers.


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> Which axanthic gene though? Vpi is ONLY compatible with VPI. So if you paired an axanthic with a VPI axanthic you get (and I believe this is correct) animals that are double het for axanthic and VPI axanthic, but will not be visually axanthic.
> Unless you have a VPI axanthic then the royal you are looking to get is kind of useless.
> I'm sure you can get banana spider axanthic or even het axanthic here.
> You may also be interested to know that the spider gene is generally frowned upon now, with sales of any specimen containing the spider gene banned by UK show organisers.


I know about the side effects of the spider gene
My female firefly is het for axanthic VPI which is the same line as the one I was looking to get
I have only found a total of 2 ads for a banana axanthic spider, one of which is this and the other was already sold, I have found a few for the TSK line, but all were possible het, so a bit of a gamble and I would need to replace my female.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

spiderhunter679 said:


> I know about the side effects of the spider gene
> My female firefly is het for axanthic VPI which is the same line as the one I was looking to get
> I have only found a total of 2 ads for a banana axanthic spider, one of which is this and the other was already sold, I have found a few for the TSK line, but all were possible het, so a bit of a gamble and I would need to replace my female.


That makes sense then if yours is VPI.
It's a very nice looking snake, but br prepared, if you do buy him and have success in breeding, of limited interest in the hatchlings due to the spider gene.


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## Jibbajabba (Jan 31, 2011)

The other risk of course is that yours isn't het VPI. Unless you bread your female yourself - otherwise all you got is the word from a breeder. Sorry I am so cynical.. I used to breed ten years ago (main project were Blue Eyed Lucys and Panda Pieds) and I spent a LOT of so called 'het for x' ... that never proved out. And back in the day a BEL would set you back like £3k and a Panda Pied £15k - £20k ... 

Anyway - good luck -and I mean it


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

I decided to import the animal despite the cost.
I was wondering what I fill in for the GB Annex? Also, what do I put in for the Permit number and Date of issue on numbers 16,17,19 and 20?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

spiderhunter679 said:


> I decided to import the animal despite the cost.
> I was wondering what I fill in for the GB Annex? Also, what do I put in for the Permit number and Date of issue on numbers 16,17,19 and 20?


There is an easy to follow guide on www.gov.uk that tells you step by step what to put in each box. Royals are Annex B. You can't complete the import form until you have the export permit, as that is the permit number it refers to.



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/968365/guid-fed0172.pdf


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> There is an easy to follow guide on www.gov.uk that tells you step by step what to put in each box. Royals are Annex B. You can't complete the import form until you have the export permit, as that is the permit number it refers to.
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/968365/guid-fed0172.pdf


Thanks for the help!


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

spiderhunter679 said:


> I decided to import the animal despite the cost.
> I was wondering what I fill in for the GB Annex? Also, what do I put in for the Permit number and Date of issue on numbers 16,17,19 and 20?


Maybe you can type up the process, what you had to do, links to any forms etc and approximate costs, which courier you used, how long the process takes, and any other info which may be helpful to anyone in the future considering doing the same ?


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## spiderhunter679 (7 mo ago)

Malc said:


> Maybe you can type up the process, what you had to do, links to any forms etc and approximate costs, which courier you used, how long the process takes, and any other info which may be helpful to anyone in the future considering doing the same ?


Sure, so what I learned was that there was 2 documents to be filled in: An export cites (That the person selling should do), and an import cites (That the person buying should do)
I am in the UK, so the form I had to fill in to import a ball python from the EU was here:




__





Endangered species: apply for an import and export permit


Apply for a permit to import, export or re-export a CITES-listed specimen in or out of the UK.




www.gov.uk




I then went on:


Species+


To find out what Apendix and Cites the animal I was importing was (In this case it was a ball python) to help me to fill in the form
However, I have to wait for the breeder to finish his export cites first, as the import cites needs the ID of his export cites.
I will then send the finished form to: [email protected]
It takes about a month for the application to be reviewed, so sadly I will have to miss out on the upcoming Houten/Hamm show and wait for next year to get my animal.

In terms of courier to use, I haven't fully decided yet as some couriers I contacted haven't gotten back to me yet, and some that have strangely haven't been able to quote me a price (not even a rough estimate based on current/past prices) due to focusing on getting to the show, not too sure what they mean by that but I have to wait to find out prices.
But the couriers that have replied to me are:


https://www.ridgewayexotics.co.uk/courier/







Reptile Courier EU | ReptileCourierEU.com


Reptile Courier ReptileCourierEU.com



www.reptilecouriereu.com









Animal Transport Services - Introduction


National and international animal couriers transporting all kinds of pets from Mice to Red Pandas safely and in thermostaticly controled comfort




animalcourier.co.uk


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

All correct so far


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

Made some enquiries yesterday regarding importing Acrantophis Madagascariensis. You will need an export permit from Netherlands, takes around 30 days. Once you have that you apply to Animal Plant Health Authority in uk for an import permit, another 30 days to wait. Once that is in place you need a health certificate from a registered vet. Then you need to book a DEFRA registered courier, who quoted me £100+ for each animal. Then you have to wait for a show that the courier can collect from, the country that the courier collects from needs to be the export country on the first certificate. Hopefully the courier has enough animals to return with, otherwise its not worth his while. Next show will be Houten March/April time. There is a 20% tax on the sellers price to pay to HMRC. Not sure about customs charges.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> Made some enquiries yesterday regarding importing Acrantophis Madagascariensis. You will need an export permit from Netherlands, takes around 30 days. Once you have that you apply to Animal Plant Health Authority in uk for an import permit, another 30 days to wait. Once that is in place you need a health certificate from a registered vet. Then you need to book a DEFRA registered courier, who quoted me £100+ for each animal. Then you have to wait for a show that the courier can collect from, the country that the courier collects from needs to be the export country on the first certificate. Hopefully the courier has enough animals to return with, otherwise its not worth his while. Next show will be Houten March/April time. There is a 20% tax on the sellers price to pay to HMRC. Not sure about customs charges.


You do NOT need to have a courier, you can go ovrr and collect yourself.
All of this is quite clearly stated online. 
And you do NOT need an animal health certificate.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

ian14 said:


> You do NOT need to have a courier, you can go ovrr and collect yourself.
> All of this is quite clearly stated online.
> And you do NOT need an animal health certificate.


I've looked into cost of going to collect them myself. Ferry is about £250, then fuel cost. Not sure whether animals can be transported by air, but no doubt there will be a charge if they can, and obviously airfare for myself.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> I've looked into cost of going to collect them myself. Ferry is about £250, then fuel cost. Not sure whether animals can be transported by air, but no doubt there will be a charge if they can, and obviously airfare for myself.


So probably better off sourcing the same animal in the UK then!


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

ian14 said:


> So probably better off sourcing the same animal in the UK then!


I've been trying for years.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> I've been trying for years.


Exactly what is it you are trying to find?


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

ian14 said:


> Exactly what is it you are trying to find?


Acrantophis Madagascariensis. Doing a search on RFUK non for sale since 2014.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> I've looked into cost of going to collect them myself. Ferry is about £250, then fuel cost. Not sure whether animals can be transported by air, but no doubt there will be a charge if they can, and obviously airfare for myself.


Eurotunnel is cheaper and faster. 
Airfreight is much much more expensive, and much harder to organise. 

There's another thread with extra info here: Hamm? Anyone go. Any courier?



Hawkeye1866 said:


> Acrantophis Madagascariensis. Doing a search on RFUK non for sale since 2014.


They are available, seen them for sale a few times over the last few years. We just moved on our pair. 
Speak to smellyfeet on here believe he has some breeding adults. C&T Exotics in Hertfordshire have some adults that I believe they intend to pair this coming season. Ours went to a member on here as well, but they weren't big enough to breed yet.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> Eurotunnel is cheaper and faster.
> Airfreight is much much more expensive, and much harder to organise.
> 
> There's another thread with extra info here: Hamm? Anyone go. Any courier?
> ...


Thanks for the info. The price for Eurotunnel was around £250. For me the cheapest way would be Hull to Rotterdam ferry.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

It is more difficult to export from the Netherlands than from France as the Dutch have more stringent rules.

Weird. I booked the Eurotunnel for my trip later this month (collecting animals) and it was £160 return.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> It is more difficult to export from the Netherlands than from France as the Dutch have more stringent rules.
> 
> Weird. I booked the Eurotunnel for my trip later this month (collecting animals) and it was £160 return.


I've just looked again at Eurotunnel, £66 was cheapest. 

The strangest part about the whole process was that the seller could take animals to Hamm/Houten from Czech Republic without any need for import/export papers.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

That's not strange at all, the Czech Republic is in the EU so there is free trade. Prior to Brexit it was the same here, you could just drive over to Europe and pick them up and drive back, no questions asked.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> That's not strange at all, the Czech Republic is in the EU so there is free trade. Prior to Brexit it was the same here, you could just drive over to Europe and pick them up and drive back, no questions asked.





LiasisUK said:


> That's not strange at all, the Czech Republic is in the EU so there is free trade. Prior to Brexit it was the same here, you could just drive over to Europe and pick them up and drive back, no questions asked.


The point I'm making is that if the seller hopped over the border into France it would be easier for him to get export certificate.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Unsure if you understand how this works, they have to apply with the CITES offices in their native country. 

Also the French CITES have a lot of other stipulations, for example all CITES animals regardless as to which appendices they are listed, must be microchipped. Whereas the Czech office is very relaxed and easy to get paperwork from, or so my Czech contacts have told me. 

My point regarding France vs Netherlands is to do with customs clearances, not CITES. The 2 are not the same.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> Unsure if you understand how this works, they have to apply with the CITES offices in their native country.
> 
> Also the French CITES have a lot of other stipulations, for example all CITES animals regardless as to which appendices they are listed, must be microchipped. Whereas the Czech office is very relaxed and easy to get paperwork from, or so my Czech contacts have told me.
> 
> My point regarding France vs Netherlands is to do with customs clearances, not CITES. The 2 are not the same.


CITES has nothing to do with import/export. Also export certificate needs to be from the country in which it is to be exported from, not the sellers own country. This is information according to APHA via phone conversation yesterday.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

I believe you were given incorrect information.
The EU acts as a single entity and any EU state can authorise the export of animals with papers from any EU country. I know this for a fact as I exported animals from France with papers issued in Denmark and then again a second time with papers issued in Croatia. Friends have bought CITES animals with German papers through France as well. This is where the animals were located, as far as I am aware you cannot apply for export papers from a country you do not live in, it has to be the country where the animals are located. 

Different countries CITES offices have different rules, if you could apply for paperwork from any EU country regardless as to where the animals were located everyone would just use the most relaxed one. That would make no sense. Not to mention the fact that certain species are listed on the appendices in specific countries only. 

UK CITES phone number is 0117 372 3700


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> I believe you were given incorrect information.
> The EU acts as a single entity and any EU state can authorise the export of animals with papers from any EU country. I know this for a fact as I exported animals from France with papers issued in Denmark and then again a second time with papers issued in Croatia. As this is where the animals were located, as far as I am aware you cannot apply for export papers from a country you do not live in.
> 
> UK CITES phone number is 0117 372 3700


You believe what you want, the number you've stated is the one I called yesterday. An A10 does not decide whether an animal can or cannot be exported, and even non CITES registered animals need export/import certificates. Health certificates are a separate issue as well, and even though the animals being discussed will not enter into UK wildlife they still need health certificates.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

I know how it works as I have done it, with both CITES and non-CITES species and I know what you are saying is incorrect. My official stamped CITES export and import documents are evidence of this.

Yes an A10 is different to export/import paperwork. That and that CITES has nothing to do with import/export are the only correct pieces of information you have given.

There is different rules depending on the animal taxa, if you asked about 'animals' with APHA/CITES rather than specifically reptiles then the information they give you will be different.

If you want help with your import from someone who has done it then you are welcome to ask me. 

There is so much false information being spread on this topic.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

You should read this thread as well 









Hamm? Anyone go. Any courier?


Hello all I’ve asked a couple of couriers if they attend the eu shows and I’ve drawn a blank. Before we left eu I paid a bloke for some snakes then I paid another bloke to bring them back in his van 👍. Snaketastic. Is this a thing if the past? I’m attempting to get myself an emerald so it’s...




www.reptileforums.co.uk


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> I know how it works as I have done it, with both CITES and non-CITES species and I know what you are saying is incorrect. My official stamped CITES export and import documents are evidence of this.
> 
> Yes an A10 is different to export/import paperwork. That and that CITES has nothing to do with import/export are the only correct pieces of information you have given.
> 
> ...


There are no different rules for different taxa regarding export/import, either the authority will grant it or they won't. I'm really at a loss as to what you're saying is wrong with my post. At the end of the day I've spoke to the governing authorities, Crystal Palace Reptile, couriers.

Obviously UK is being punished for Brexit, perhaps we should kick all foreign manufacturers and immigrants out of our country.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> There are no different rules for different taxa regarding export/import,


There are many many differences!!
It's all available on the gov website.



Hawkeye1866 said:


> I'm really at a loss as to what you're saying is wrong with my post.


I outlined what was wrong, the key thing being that you said

'Also export certificate needs to be from the country in which it is to be exported from, not the sellers own country.'
and
'they still need health certificates.'

Both incorrect.

No health certificates needed for reptiles. What you need is listed here for commercial movements: Import live animals and germinal products from the EU to Great Britain

_A commercial document must include:_


_details of what’s in the consignment, including species and number of animals, if this applies_
_the name of the person who sent it_
_the name of the person it’s being sent to_
_address of the premises of origin_
_address of the destination premises_
_The document must travel with the consignment.

They must also send an exporter declaration that confirms the animals are fit to travel for commercial trade._

And here for non-commercial movements: Bringing animals into Great Britain

_There are no restrictions on bringing pet rodents, rabbits, invertebrates, amphibians or reptiles to Great Britain from EU countries._


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> There are many many differences!!
> It's all available on the gov website.
> 
> 
> ...


A commercial document is only needed if animals is to be used for commercial gain ie showing and breeding, in which case the A10 certificate would need to be changed into buyers name once imported. I've just had a dog brought over from Serbia, even though it had a health certificate it needed 48 hours quarantine here in UK.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

LiasisUK said:


> And here for non-commercial movements: Bringing animals into Great Britain
> 
> _There are no restrictions on bringing pet rodents, rabbits, invertebrates, amphibians or reptiles to Great Britain from EU countries._


I included the non-commerical information as well ^^. 

The rules for dogs are different to reptiles, hence my point regarding the different taxa having different rules. 

This exchange has been difficult, I recommend you don't try to import any CITES reptiles.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

LiasisUK said:


> I included the non-commerical information as well ^^.
> 
> The rules for dogs are different to reptiles, hence my point regarding the different taxa having different rules.
> 
> This exchange has been difficult, I recommend you don't try to import any CITES reptiles.


Why not?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> A commercial document is only needed if animals is to be used for commercial gain ie showing and breeding, in which case the A10 certificate would need to be changed into buyers name once imported. I've just had a dog brought over from Serbia, even though it had a health certificate it needed 48 hours quarantine here in UK.


I get the distinct impression you are rather confused by CITES. An A10 is only required for Annex A/Appendix I specimens. You also cannot simply change the name on it. There are 2 types of A10, Transaction Specific Certificates (TSC) and Specimen Specific Certificates (SSC). A TSC A10 is only valid for the single commercial use that it was applied for. Usually, this is for the initial sale of offspring. SSC A10s stay with the specimens they relate to for the life of the specimen. These must be uniquely marked, most commonly via microchip. There is no name changing involved with an SSC as it relates to the specimen itself, not the owner.
You are clearly confusing CITES regulations as relating to all animals. They don't.
Dogs are not covered by CITES, but are subject to rabies control orders etc. There are very different rules there. Bringing a dog into the UK is completely different to bringing in a CITES specimen. Different laws, different processes.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

ian14 said:


> I get the distinct impression you are rather confused by CITES. An A10 is only required for Annex A/Appendix I specimens. You also cannot simply change the name on it. There are 2 types of A10, Transaction Specific Certificates (TSC) and Specimen Specific Certificates (SSC). A TSC A10 is only valid for the single commercial use that it was applied for. Usually, this is for the initial sale of offspring. SSC A10s stay with the specimens they relate to for the life of the specimen. These must be uniquely marked, most commonly via microchip. There is no name changing involved with an SSC as it relates to the specimen itself, not the owner.
> You are clearly confusing CITES regulations as relating to all animals. They don't.
> Dogs are not covered by CITES, but are subject to rabies control orders etc. There are very different rules there. Bringing a dog into the UK is completely different to bringing in a CITES specimen. Different laws, different processes.


There is no confusion for me. When I bought my Dumerils, back in early 2000s, I had to apply to Wildlife Authority in Bristol for change of ownership, probably because I wanted to breed rather than just keep. That is the same situation now, although the A10 certificate has now changed, it no longer contains the parents microchip numbers and has a photo ID. My whole point with the health certificates is that an animal that is going to be kept in captivity shouldn't need one, whereas an animal that will be in the outside environment of the UK poses a risk to the natural wildlife, including domestic animals, of the UK.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> There is no confusion for me. When I bought my Dumerils, back in early 2000s, I had to apply to Wildlife Authority in Bristol for change of ownership, probably because I wanted to breed rather than just keep. That is the same situation now, although the A10 certificate has now changed, it no longer contains the parents microchip numbers and has a photo ID. My whole point with the health certificates is that an animal that is going to be kept in captivity shouldn't need one, whereas an animal that will be in the outside environment of the UK poses a risk to the natural wildlife, including domestic animals, of the UK.


You are still going on about a health certificate. They are NOT required for reptiles. A10s also require the specimen to be marked, either by way of a closed ring in the case of birds, or a microchip.
This is still a requirement on the application. As is the requirement to provide the ring/marking ie microchip numbers of the parents. 
So quite why you believe that these are no longer needed is beyond me!


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

ian14 said:


> You are still going on about a health certificate. They are NOT required for reptiles. A10s also require the specimen to be marked, either by way of a closed ring in the case of birds, or a microchip.
> This is still a requirement on the application. As is the requirement to provide the ring/marking ie microchip numbers of the parents.
> So quite why you believe that these are no longer needed is beyond me!


When did I say the microchip wasn't needed? I was told on the phone yesterday by APHA that yes reptiles do need a health certificate. I think I'll take APHA advice rather than an anonymous person on a forum.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> I think I'll take APHA advice rather than an anonymous person on a forum.


God give me strength.!!

You came here to request assistance with importing from the Netherlands. You have been advised by long standing members who have not only imported and exported reptiles, both pre and post brexit, are also well aware of the legal requirements as I believe it forms part of their day job... But you choose to either ignore the advice, or try and argue a point that is irrelevant as things have changed compared to the turn of the century.

Now by all means act on the advice you received from APHA if that makes you feel confident, but I would certainly take steps to cover yourself such as gaining permission to record the calls or at least make a note of the time, date and name of the person and in which office they are based, so if it does go tits up and you loose the animal and find yourself in the brown smelly stuff you have something for your defence.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

Malc said:


> God give me strength.!!
> 
> You came here to request assistance with importing from the Netherlands. You have been advised by long standing members who have not only imported and exported reptiles, both pre and post brexit, are also well aware of the legal requirements as I believe it forms part of their day job... But you choose to either ignore the advice, or try and argue a point that is irrelevant as things have changed compared to the turn of the century.
> 
> Now by all means act on the advice you received from APHA if that makes you feel confident, but I would certainly take steps to cover yourself such as gaining permission to record the calls or at least make a note of the time, date and name of the person and in which office they are based, so if it does go tits up and you loose the animal and find yourself in the brown smelly stuff you have something for your defence.


Wrong, I didn't come here looking for assistance regarding importing, I added my own experience to an already existing thread. And guess what, my experience of importing was from yesterday. 
Seems like some just love to stir things up because they have fook all else to do. This forum has never changed, think I joined in around 2004. Started keeping reptiles in 1987. Now there's my credentials.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> When did I say the microchip wasn't needed? I was told on the phone yesterday by APHA that yes reptiles do need a health certificate. I think I'll take APHA advice rather than an anonymous person on a forum.


I am trained in CITES enforcement and work as a wildlife crime officer.
Reptiles do NOT need a health certificate. There is no such thing!!!!! Health certificates relate to birds and mammals due to the issues of rabies, avian flu etc.
You also stated that the A10 had changed and no longer needed the parents microchip numbers. which is not true. You also implied that photo ID is enough, which is also not true.
You have been given advice from people who have practical experience in importing reptiles yet still you think you know better.
You having started keeping reptiles in 1987 doesn't mean you are an expert! I started keeping in 1988, have had UK breeding firsts, and bred large numbers of snakes. Doesn't mean I am an expert though.
I am, however, speaking from my professional knowledge and training. I have worked with Border Force on CITES operations, and investigated a number of cases involving offences under the COTES Regulations, which is the legal framework for CITES in the UK.
I would respectfully suggest that my knowledge of this area is probably more than yours.
But I anticipate that you will just ignore what's been said.
So if you believe you need a health certificate for reptiles, then go ahead and pay for a needless document. Animal health certificates are there to prevent infectious diseases harmful to human and animal health from being brought into the UK.
Now as reptiles do not act as vectors for such diseases, this is why health certificates are not required.


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

ian14 said:


> I am trained in CITES enforcement and work as a wildlife crime officer.
> Reptiles do NOT need a health certificate. There is no such thing!!!!! Health certificates relate to birds and mammals due to the issues of rabies, avian flu etc.
> You also stated that the A10 had changed and no longer needed the parents microchip numbers. which is not true. You also implied that photo ID is enough, which is also not true.
> You have been given advice from people who have practical experience in importing reptiles yet still you think you know better.
> ...


You simple have not read my posts properly, and have read your own thoughts into what I wrote.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> Started keeping reptiles in 1987. Now there's my credentials.


One year longer then me... but that doesn't mean anything in the scheme of things. 

Ian may have his faults, as we all do. But when it comes to things such as this topic I would accept the information he provides seeing that he is a trained official given his role as a wildlife officer who is also trained in all things legal including CITES. If that proved not to be the case, and IF something did occur which resulted in the loss of the reptile and a possible court case, then you could have some form of redress as Ian's post would prove to be evidence in your favour for any legal proceedings you take to recover your costs. But I'm sure Ian knows that, otherwise why would he publicly state thing that if untrue could see him facing court action if things went that far. 



Malc said:


> You came here to request assistance with importing from the Netherlands.





Hawkeye1866 said:


> Wrong, I didn't come here looking for assistance regarding importing,


I stand corrected - I didn't check back and verify that you are indeed not the OP requesting assistance - my apologies



Hawkeye1866 said:


> think I joined in around 2004.


Your profile shows that you joined in 2018. Unless you have used a different user name before ?


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## Hawkeye1866 (Jul 22, 2018)

Malc said:


> One year longer then me... but that doesn't mean anything in the scheme of things.
> 
> Ian may have his faults, as we all do. But when it comes to things such as this topic I would accept the information he provides seeing that he is a trained official given his role as a wildlife officer who is also trained in all things legal including CITES. If that proved not to be the case, and IF something did occur which resulted in the loss of the reptile and a possible court case, then you could have some form of redress as Ian's post would prove to be evidence in your favour for any legal proceedings you take to recover your costs. But I'm sure Ian knows that, otherwise why would he publicly state thing that if untrue could see him facing court action if things went that far.
> 
> ...


I fail to see how a post on RFUK would be legally binding. I know nothing of Ian, his credentials, or any other forum member, much the same as probably nobody knows me.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> I fail to see how a post on RFUK would be legally binding.


You've clearly missed the point I was making...


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Malc said:


> You've clearly missed the point I was making...


Malc, you have made very fair and accurate points.
And yes, I can come across as a right miserable old git at times and will argue my point of view.
I have done all I can to contribute to this discussion, but when one party is resolute in their belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong, well, good luck. They will soon fall foul of the law and come back bleating that snakes have been seized and its all unfair.
I stand by my understanding of the relevant legislation and as always will be happy to be corrected if I am wrong.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Hawkeye1866 said:


> I fail to see how a post on RFUK would be legally binding. I know nothing of Ian, his credentials, or any other forum member, much the same as probably nobody knows me.


And so in the same vein, we can all ignore the points, incorrect that they are, that you make.
If you would like to know my "credentials" I have been keeping and breeding snakes since 1988, have had UK breeding first records, bred a number of VERY rarely seen species, worked in 4 zoos, hold a BSc Hons degree in Applied Zoology, have been a police officer since January 2000, and as part of my role am a Wildlife Crime Officer, specifically trained in CITES Enforcement (and one of only 2 in my force), a specialist role I have held since 2004.
And for full transparency, my normal full time role is on a specialist proactive team targeting, disrupting and prosecuting County drugs lines, habitual knife carriers and serious youth violence.
Now you know my "credentials"


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