# Deep heat projector or ceramic?



## ZachyBoy

I'm planning my set-up for a Crestie. This will be bio active and live planted in an exo terra 60x45x60. I'm looking for advice and pros/cons of which type of heater to use, deep heat projector or a ceramic? It will be on day and night as my room temperature drops quite low at night. I will be using it alongside a Jungle dawn and UV. What do you think?

Thanks,
Zach


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## Arcadiajohn

The difference is clear,

The CHE produces Infra-Red-C which is non-terrestrial and is not bio-available as it heats air.

The DHP produces both I-R-A and I-R-B which is very bioavailable, supplying energy deep into the dermis and for around half the energy of a CHE.

It is wild-like, usable and energy efficient.

here is some more info https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLrfDtMNO58

Typically we see changes in the animals when put on the DHP system. Shorter basking periods, higher colour, higher activity, more aggression and better feeding.

You do have to use it in a slightly different way however. Place a thick slate under the lamp with natural branches and plants over it. These will then store and convect energy away to warm the enclosure while providing energy directly into the animal also.

The probe needs to be fixed under the lamp rather than away

Hope this helps,


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## ZachyBoy

Awesome thank you!


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## loxocemus

what does this mean, when a snake (or crestie) sits under a ceramic for example it warms up then moves away so its obviously bio available or it would not move away, but im sure iv missed ur point, apologies if so.

does this mean the deep heat projector doesn't heat the cage in the classic sense but rather heats cage furniture which then heats the cage, im pretty sure iv got that one wrong, again apologies.

im sure iv misunderstood the deep heater but it sounds like its a nice addition to a cages heating rather than a complete replacement, is it intended to be additional or for small exo terras etc?. to get a cool end of 25oc u would have to arrange X amount of cage furniture *just so* to get that 25oc and that would vary with room temps more widely than normal because of probe placement.

its sounds ideal for cool montane species, raising body temps without heating up the wider environment, or an isolated basking spot without affecting main cage heating, theres lots of species where that could be worked into the setup...

rgds and merry christmas to u and urs

ed



Arcadiajohn said:


> The difference is clear,
> 
> The CHE produces Infra-Red-C which is non-terrestrial and is not bio-available as it heats air.
> 
> The DHP produces both I-R-A and I-R-B which is very bioavailable, supplying energy deep into the dermis and for around half the energy of a CHE.
> 
> It is wild-like, usable and energy efficient.
> 
> here is some more info https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLrfDtMNO58
> 
> Typically we see changes in the animals when put on the DHP system. Shorter basking periods, higher colour, higher activity, more aggression and better feeding.
> 
> You do have to use it in a slightly different way however. Place a thick slate under the lamp with natural branches and plants over it. These will then store and convect energy away to warm the enclosure while providing energy directly into the animal also.
> 
> The probe needs to be fixed under the lamp rather than away
> 
> Hope this helps,


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## loxocemus

ps if this heater works the way i think it does it could be the key to a very rare lock :2thumb:

rgds
ed


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## ZachyBoy

Interesting points - I'm looking forward to setting up the viv and experimenting with the decor and temperatures before I introduce the inhabitants.


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## Esiuol

IR-C (ceramics) just directly warms the skins surface...
IR-A and IR-B penetrates deeper into the skin - that's the warm tingle you feel out in the sun...

Basically IR-A and IR-B is much more efficient and more natural for reptiles.


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## wagg

Does the deep heat projecter heat the viv uo tho or just the surface directly underneath. I.e a log or branch i think the question was.


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## Esiuol

wagg said:


> Does the deep heat projecter heat the viv uo tho or just the surface directly underneath. I.e a log or branch i think the question was.


Yes it does, IR is reflected... I imagine you'd get more out of the deep heat projector in a more natural style setup with natural decor - rocks, branches etc... have more surfaces to absorb and reflect the IR.


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## wagg

Esiuol said:


> Yes it does, IR is reflected... I imagine you'd get more out of the deep heat projector in a more natural style setup with natural decor - rocks, branches etc... have more surfaces to absorb and reflect the IR.


Oki cool thanks. Have thought about poping one in for my bearded dragon.


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## Esiuol

wagg said:


> Oki cool thanks. Have thought about poping one in for my bearded dragon.


IMO it needs to be combined with visual light and UV as I'm sure you're aware :2thumb:


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## loxocemus

in a minimalist cage, beardie, ball whatever, with deep heat projector as the only heat source, would u have a cold cage warm animal scenario?

rgds
ed



Esiuol said:


> Yes it does, IR is reflected... I imagine you'd get more out of the deep heat projector in a more natural style setup with natural decor - rocks, branches etc... have more surfaces to absorb and reflect the IR.


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## Esiuol

loxocemus said:


> in a minimalist cage, beardie, ball whatever, with deep heat projector as the only heat source, would u have a cold cage warm animal scenario?
> 
> rgds
> ed


I don't think so - I imagine it would need to work harder to maintain temps.

TBH IMO I wouldn't use this on it's own, the deep heat projector provides part of the spectrum (IR-A and IR-B), you also need the other elements to provide a more natural spectrum. UV-A, UV-B and bright visible light.

Knowing what I now know - I wouldn't use ceramics for anything other than ambient temps.

Bright basking spot (visible light), with UV, IR-A and IR-B is ideal - something I'm changing over all my vivariums too :2thumb:


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## Arcadiajohn

Apologies for lateness of reply, I'm writing a new book and it's all a bit all encompassing,

Firstly, as stated thus lamp is the first to project High quantities of IR-A and IR-B. These are the wavelengths that the sun produces as part of 'terrestrial-light' or 'daylight'. As such they are more natural and more bioavailable (usable) than non terrestrial wavelgths such as unbalanced IR-A and IR-C as you get with CHE.

IR-B is very bioavailable, that meaning that it delivers parcels of energy (photons) deep into the dermis. The quality and contained energy of light simply means that your animal is energised better and more naturally. 

To do this we use true IR which is largely invisible to the eye. In fact, this lamp only produces a small amount of short wavelength IR, so visible light is under 4 lux, meaning it can be used 24/7.

It provides this natural heat just as with the sun, into the skin but as it produces IR-A also via convection. 

So, energy is projected forward as a localised flood. This is absorbed in part and reflected to cause convection. This then heats the air which in turn heats the viv.

This is double heating, directly into the animal and also in the air.

Being so well built it wastes very little energy, as such a much lower wattage is needed in average vivs.

I create a basking temp of around 40 degrees in a mesh top, glass viv of 3x2x18, no problem. I keep my platysaurus in that viv. It does not struggle and us not running full pelt, but!, it us set up well! With thick rock 10-12" under the lamp. This rock does an important job as will thick branches.

Reptiles associate heat with light in the visible spectrum. So, we site our DHP next to our T5 uv source, I even put a jungle dawn next to the lot and it works well. Check out the colour of my platysaurus on our Facebook wall for visual evidence, this is a species that needs high heat or they become inactive and lose colour.

For many, with large vivs they will simply be used as a secondary heat source in order to provide those replicated solar wavelengths. That's fine, it just means they get a more natural form of energy from heat.

Typically we see an increase in activity, less time basking, increased feeding and increased aggression in those that use the lamp, and soon after starting using it.

Please remember, this is new tech, it must be used in a different way to get the best out if it. We may have to relearn some skills, like putting the probe under the lamp. 

I worked for 7 years to get it right, luckily it seems to work very well indeed, when used correctly


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## Arcadiajohn

Good point, 

You would have a properly energised animal that is able to self regulate well and then a warm viv over time through natural convection. 



loxocemus said:


> in a minimalist cage, beardie, ball whatever, with deep heat projector as the only heat source, would u have a cold cage warm animal scenario?
> 
> rgds
> ed


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## Arcadiajohn

Yes, this is important. Heat is stored, reflected and convected away from natural decoration, just as with the sun. It is then also available directly deep into the animal. 

QUOTE=Esiuol;13048186]Yes it does, IR is reflected... I imagine you'd get more out of the deep heat projector in a more natural style setup with natural decor - rocks, branches etc... have more surfaces to absorb and reflect the IR.[/QUOTE]


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## BlueThunder

Arcadiajohn said:


> Yes, this is important. Heat is stored, reflected and convected away from natural decoration, just as with the sun. It is then also available directly deep into the animal.
> 
> QUOTE=Esiuol;13048186]Yes it does, IR is reflected... I imagine you'd get more out of the deep heat projector in a more natural style setup with natural decor - rocks, branches etc... have more surfaces to absorb and reflect the IR.


[/QUOTE]
Sorry to dig up an old thread John. 

I'm finding that the cool end of my viv is getting too cold for a Northern BTS as we approach winter. Last night it was 18.5c, whereas I want it 20c or over. There is a ceramic in the far left of the tank, but it is struggling to heat the far right.

Would you recommend a DHP on the far right on a dimming thermostat, to keep the cool side around 20c? If so, can the sensor be on the wall slightly to the side of the bulb, or does it have to be on the ground directly below the DHP?


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## Arcadiajohn

yes you can use it. If you want to measure the energy available at the basking point, directly under the lamp, then the probe goes 2 " outside the projection of the lamp which is about 10" in diameter at 12" from the lamp. 


If you put the probe on the wall, it will be measure air temp, as such the basking zone will always be hotter than the air. 


Hope this helps 




Sorry to dig up an old thread John. 

I'm finding that the cool end of my viv is getting too cold for a Northern BTS as we approach winter. Last night it was 18.5c, whereas I want it 20c or over. There is a ceramic in the far left of the tank, but it is struggling to heat the far right.

Would you recommend a DHP on the far right on a dimming thermostat, to keep the cool side around 20c? If so, can the sensor be on the wall slightly to the side of the bulb, or does it have to be on the ground directly below the DHP?[/QUOTE]


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## BlueThunder

Arcadiajohn said:


> If you put the probe on the wall, it will be measure air temp, as such the basking zone will always be hotter than the air.


Sorry to be obtuse, isn't the air temp what we are after? Or are you suggesting the probe should be on top of the substrate, but 2'' away from the cone? I get there is a 10'' wide cone directly below the lamp (when the lamp is 12'' above the substrate). Wouldn't a skink moving and burrowing disturb the probe?

Thanks for the reply, BTW.


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## BlueThunder

BlueThunder said:


> Sorry to be obtuse, isn't the air temp what we are after? Or are you suggesting the probe should be on top of the substrate, but 2'' away from the cone? I get there is a 10'' wide cone directly below the lamp (when the lamp is 12'' above the substrate). Wouldn't a skink moving and burrowing disturb the probe?
> 
> Thanks for the reply, BTW.


Sorry, couldn't edit:- "isn't the air temp what we are after?". I meant to say an inch or so above the substrate, and a few cm from the wall is where I currently have them. I'll happily move them onto the substrate itself for all my lamps is that is better.


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## Arcadiajohn

The air temp is kind of important but as this energy is derived from IR-C it is the least bioavailable. I am more interested in the quantity and quality of energy available over the basking zone, to know that any species can energise just as they would under full-spectrum terrestrial daylight. 


If this is working well, and through convection the air will heat to generate a safe gradient. In big vivs however we can use secondary sources to help with this process of heating the air via convection.


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## FirstSnakeJourney

(sorry for the slight hijacking of this thread) 

I'm in the process of starting to set up my first vivarium (a 4.5*2*2ft wooden one) for an adult(ish - still to be decided and based on availability but not a hatchling in any case) corn snake). I was originally thinking of going with a CHE but then came across this device which seems to be a better option - except like others seem to be - I'm uncertain that it will heat the entire vivarium.

I'm yet to start "building" it, but the plan is to have a singke story home made hide at both ends and along the back will be at least two stories of platforms and tunnels (though probably not along the entire length but at least two thirds is the aim). These hides are going to be a mixture of just slate or slate hit glued onto a frame made by ceramic tiles. There'll also be some driftwood, a cork tube, a half log and plastic plants. (maybe with some higher branches). 

With that much slate (I've used about half of the 22kg bag so far) - i don't imagine from reading the various threads here that the DHP will have a problem with heating the vivarium but would like some extra confirmation if at all possible?


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## Arcadiajohn

They certainly can if you set it up correctly as you seem to be. They do not emit visible light, so fit it alongside a good full-spectrum + UV-B lamp to fill the spectrum. I would use a 24w ProT5 6% alongside the DHP in a viv of that size and for that species.


Fit the DHP over a good thick rock stack, this will cause thermals to rise and warm the air. The animal can bask underneath it and benefit directly also. Guard the lamp! 


I have used them to create quite wide and very hot basking zones for small lizard species even over glass vivs of 3' long and not had any issues at all.


But, this is only 50w, yes 50w of an energy source that is more bioavailable, but 50w non the less. 


Where i haven't been able to hit target temps i have coupled them up with a 50w halogen and stat. just to give it a boost by warming the air


Try it before the animal arrives, give it a week to burn in and stabilise the gradient 




FirstSnakeJourney said:


> (sorry for the slight hijacking of this thread)
> 
> I'm in the process of starting to set up my first vivarium (a 4.5*2*2ft wooden one) for an adult(ish - still to be decided and based on availability but not a hatchling in any case) corn snake). I was originally thinking of going with a CHE but then came across this device which seems to be a better option - except like others seem to be - I'm uncertain that it will heat the entire vivarium.
> 
> I'm yet to start "building" it, but the plan is to have a singke story home made hide at both ends and along the back will be at least two stories of platforms and tunnels (though probably not along the entire length but at least two thirds is the aim). These hides are going to be a mixture of just slate or slate hit glued onto a frame made by ceramic tiles. There'll also be some driftwood, a cork tube, a half log and plastic plants. (maybe with some higher branches).
> 
> With that much slate (I've used about half of the 22kg bag so far) - i don't imagine from reading the various threads here that the DHP will have a problem with heating the vivarium but would like some extra confirmation if at all possible?


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## FirstSnakeJourney

Arcadiajohn said:


> They certainly can if you set it up correctly as you seem to be. They do not emit visible light, so fit it alongside a good full-spectrum + UV-B lamp to fill the spectrum. I would use a 24w ProT5 6% alongside the DHP in a viv of that size and for that species.
> 
> 
> Fit the DHP over a good thick rock stack, this will cause thermals to rise and warm the air. The animal can bask underneath it and benefit directly also. Guard the lamp!
> 
> 
> I have used them to create quite wide and very hot basking zones for small lizard species even over glass vivs of 3' long and not had any issues at all.
> 
> 
> But, this is only 50w, yes 50w of an energy source that is more bioavailable, but 50w non the less.
> 
> 
> Where i haven't been able to hit target temps i have coupled them up with a 50w halogen and stat. just to give it a boost by warming the air
> 
> 
> Try it before the animal arrives, give it a week to burn in and stabilise the gradient


Thanks for the input. Now time to build it all out.


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## Valaryan

Hi John, (again sorry to hijack the thread) one application that hasn't been spoken about is how this system fares with amphibians that require a gentle heat but not one that dries the enclosure as much as a ceramic would.

This is Frankenstein, my baby Giant African Bullfrog. I've had him for a week and I find the heat mat is not giving me the temps I need as measured with an IR temp gun on my frog and the cage furniture.

So a few days ago I ordered a 50w deep heat projector, an arcadia dome and a komodo lamp stand to heat his 30x30x20 cm komodo terrarium.

The thing that drew me to the projector is that it seems to be able to heat the animal well with less energy than a ceramic and therefore (I would guess) produce less background heat that may dry out the setup too much. 

My plan is to use a Microclimate Evo on the dimming setting to regulate the projector at 80°F during the day and a couple degrees cooler at night. 

I mist twice a day but can you comment on how well these lamps fare with amphibians and how they compare with ceramics when it comes to dessication. Cheers.









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Arcadiajohn

It is a perfect use of the tech, being short and medium wavelength IR they do not release their energy into air, as such they are no where near as drying as longer wavelength tech such at mats, CHE and cables. 


Yes, Long wavelength IR is available as the energy radiates back off of the decoration, but this only mimics the way that they sun provides us all with energy.


this is a far more natural and certainly more bioavailable source of heating. 


This link can help also https://www.arcadiareptile.com/infrared-wavelengths-and-reptile-care/


John




Valaryan said:


> Hi John, (again sorry to hijack the thread) one application that hasn't been spoken about is how this system fares with amphibians that require a gentle heat but not one that dries the enclosure as much as a ceramic would.
> 
> This is Frankenstein, my baby Giant African Bullfrog. I've had him for a week and I find the heat mat is not giving me the temps I need as measured with an IR temp gun on my frog and the cage furniture.
> 
> So a few days ago I ordered a 50w deep heat projector, an arcadia dome and a komodo lamp stand to heat his 30x30x20 cm komodo terrarium.
> 
> The thing that drew me to the projector is that it seems to be able to heat the animal well with less energy than a ceramic and therefore (I would guess) produce less background heat that may dry out the setup too much.
> 
> My plan is to use a Microclimate Evo on the dimming setting to regulate the projector at 80°F during the day and a couple degrees cooler at night.
> 
> I mist twice a day but can you comment on how well these lamps fare with amphibians and how they compare with ceramics when it comes to dessication. Cheers.imageimage
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Valaryan

Arcadiajohn said:


> It is a perfect use of the tech, being short and medium wavelength IR they do not release their energy into air, as such they are no where near as drying as longer wavelength tech such at mats, CHE and cables.
> 
> 
> Yes, Long wavelength IR is available as the energy radiates back off of the decoration, but this only mimics the way that they sun provides us all with energy.
> 
> 
> this is a far more natural and certainly more bioavailable source of heating.
> 
> 
> This link can help also https://www.arcadiareptile.com/infrared-wavelengths-and-reptile-care/
> 
> 
> John


Brilliant, cheers for getting back to me. I've set everything up and I'm loving this heat lamp so far. Gonna dial in the temps over the next few days, starting off cooler and fine tuning. So far it seems really good, doesn't take long to get up to temperature at all.









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Arcadiajohn

looking good




Valaryan said:


> Brilliant, cheers for getting back to me. I've set everything up and I'm loving this heat lamp so far. Gonna dial in the temps over the next few days, starting off cooler and fine tuning. So far it seems really good, doesn't take long to get up to temperature at all.imageimageimageimageimage
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Paul F

Arcadiajohn said:


> looking good


John, genuine question, not sarcasm (I am seriously considering trying a heat projector myself in one of my vivs in conjunction with a conventional radiator);

The projector is a long way above the viv in the example above. You obviously think this is a good set up, so I feel I may have missed something. :blush:
Is there an ideal minimum distance between bulb and hot spot, to mount the unit that far above the basking area? 
I understand that they do not work as a conventional ceramic bulb would, but isn't there a lot of efficiency (for want of better terminology) lost in mounting it so far outside the viv? Or is there a purpose for it? 
(Valaryan, I'm questioning my understanding, not yours! : victory


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## Arcadiajohn

Yes, as with all light sources, photons spread out over distance. It is the same for LEDs, filament lamps and UV lamps-everything


A lamp can only produce a certain number of photons. They do not lose energy as they travel but as light travels it covers a greater area. SO you spread the total energy around. 


This means that achievable temps or luminosity decrease over area as the energy is spread.


In most systems the DHP works best at roughly 12" from the target, be that an animal or a 'thing'. This s a rather shallow viv that is well decorated. So, to run the lamp at a level where the best wavelengths are produced you increase the distance between the animal and the lamp. 


Then measure very proactively to make sure you actually get what you need. These lamps work best, in terms of energy into the dermis if they are not dimmed to much, but they certainly can be controlled.


I can hit 30-32 degrees or more depending on ambient with one 50w DHP in a 2' high, 3' long glass, mesh top viv. Why, the lamp is situated directly over a very thick, dark natural rock stack. The rock, works as it should as a black body radiator and takes in energy. This energy is then readmitted back into the viv as IR-C (long wavelength IR) which heats air. After a time settling the whole system becomes energised. 








Paul F said:


> John, genuine question, not sarcasm (I am seriously considering trying a heat projector myself in one of my vivs in conjunction with a conventional radiator);
> 
> The projector is a long way above the viv in the example above. You obviously think this is a good set up, so I feel I may have missed something. :blush:
> Is there an ideal minimum distance between bulb and hot spot, to mount the unit that far above the basking area?
> I understand that they do not work as a conventional ceramic bulb would, but isn't there a lot of efficiency (for want of better terminology) lost in mounting it so far outside the viv? Or is there a purpose for it?
> (Valaryan, I'm questioning my understanding, not yours! : victory


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## Valaryan

Paul F said:


> John, genuine question, not sarcasm (I am seriously considering trying a heat projector myself in one of my vivs in conjunction with a conventional radiator);
> 
> The projector is a long way above the viv in the example above. You obviously think this is a good set up, so I feel I may have missed something. :blush:
> Is there an ideal minimum distance between bulb and hot spot, to mount the unit that far above the basking area?
> I understand that they do not work as a conventional ceramic bulb would, but isn't there a lot of efficiency (for want of better terminology) lost in mounting it so far outside the viv? Or is there a purpose for it?
> (Valaryan, I'm questioning my understanding, not yours! : victory


There's recommended distances on the box and mine is about 300mm above the surface of the substrate.

As John says the spread of energy wouldn't be as wide if it were closer and my aim is to create a large area of gentle heat for my frog without dessicating the substrate. That's why this lamp is good for me as I'm not after crazy hot temps. All on a dimming stat too.









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Frankthetort

I know this is an old thread but can I use this with my hermann tortoise? I’m getting so many mixed measages says they are not for tortoise but he seems so active becouse of this? And there is nothing to say I can’t use it on him on the website? Many thanks


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