# Dart frog staple food alternatives.



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

On another thread i have gone slightly off topic on the idea of an alternative to fruit flies for dart frogs. 

I have heard mixed things about bean weavils or micro crickets.

Does anyone have any experience with the use of either of these in terms of dart frog keeping? or maybe someone uses something different, like pea aphids?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

plasma234 said:


> On another thread i have gone slightly off topic on the idea of an alternative to fruit flies for dart frogs.
> 
> I have heard mixed things about bean weavils or micro crickets.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with the use of either of these in terms of dart frog keeping? or maybe someone uses something different, like pea aphids?


Callum, before going further I'll say this,fruit flies need mastering like everything else,it does take time mate a degree of skill to not get them all over the place,mastering any feeder is like this. skills to be learnt which take time to aquire. For me it was springtails that took ages to master,I always had enough ,but I worked for 'em like a *****. Ha said smiling after maybe half a day just playing springs and nowhere near finished.ha but the quantities we produce no are monsterous.

Mate ff are used as our staple almost universally,their nutritional value lends itself to be our main carrier of vits. there is no doubt in my mind that aphids are a cracking feeder,I've not yet really cultured them,but I do use them when ever i can for our frogs,I think they carry or are more fattening ,than ff. Naturally, here one has to master plants as well and probably be more rigid in ones culturing routines.

Beanweavils can be flatly refused by some frogs,other wretch,almost when eating them,they are a great fall back and require little work. They are also tricky to get a constant supply of,there are methods out there,but we have never achieved a constant supply. the adult lifespan is short and so that has to be overcome by some clever thinking. But as above a constant supply means nothing if the frog won't take them.using us as an example,we used to culture lots,before we kept frogs,we tried them,the frogs all but refused,so eventually we let them slide,we did try again a year or so later,and the frogs seemd to like them more,whether down to age of frogs or another factor,hell I dunno. Mind one might have more joy with grainweavils,their ability to escape is legendary,we have tried them yet,although really we should.

Crickets,not many of us use them here,largely we don't because of two fold fears,one is crickets in viv getting big and either attacking frogs or munching plants,the second one of carrying parasites. I'd note there is a great breeder here(uk) using them with great results,but they are not for us personally

I think using as varied a diet as possible is best, our diets have to be difficient,compared to the wild. So try everything mate,but I really don't think one can do without the humble fruit fly as a staple,not without alot of work anyway. 

Kiddo we have cultured ff for nearly 4 years now,even that time span wasn't enough for us to nearly get caught,by buying in some new stock flies to culture,which came with a particularly troublesome mite. We have nearly beaten it now, but what a PITA that was. I'm trying to illustrate,this isn't always straight forward, even when one has learnt a few tricks first hand. 

There are a few of us here whom have kept darts for just a few years now(,us only 2 1/2),over and over again we stress the need to really hammer culturing before frogs, it's a message to heed for all that want darts. I know how important gaining these skills are it's always worth spending a few more seconds adding this to any thread about food and dartfrogs

Stu


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## aberreef (Aug 10, 2010)

I culture aphids, woodlice and springtails alongside ff's. I doubt any would be a suitable replacement to flies but all make a great suppliment 

Aphids do multiply very quickly though and it's possible to harvest about a week after starting the culture. The frogs love them too 

A varied diet is key IMO. Just wish I had the guts to use wild caught 'fi:mf_dribble:eld plankton'


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Stu, you might be able to help with this one. I was at Chester Zoo recently and in their dart enclosures there were thousands of tiny black insects, they looked like beetles or little black roaches as they seemed to have a bit of an exoskeleton. They looked to be breeding in the enclosure and not just added daily as their numbers were so high. They seemed like a great food source and seeing as they were just living alongside the frogs like our springs and woods do I figured they'd be an amazing feeder option. Have you any idea what they could be? I tried to find a minion but there was nobody around :-(. I've even contemplated contacting the zoo to see if anybody there can shed any light on it because I'm pretty much stumped.


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## aberreef (Aug 10, 2010)

ronnyjodes said:


> Stu, you might be able to help with this one. I was at Chester Zoo recently and in their dart enclosures there were thousands of tiny black insects, they looked like beetles or little black roaches as they seemed to have a bit of an exoskeleton. They looked to be breeding in the enclosure and not just added daily as their numbers were so high. They seemed like a great food source and seeing as they were just living alongside the frogs like our springs and woods do I figured they'd be an amazing feeder option. Have you any idea what they could be? I tried to find a minion but there was nobody around :-(. I've even contemplated contacting the zoo to see if anybody there can shed any light on it because I'm pretty much stumped.


Could they have been bean weavils?


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Do you know what, that could be a possibility- it's the closest resemblance I've found so far. I've never actually cultured weevils as I always thought they'd be a bit of a faff and I'd heard of folks cultures going great for a while and then slowing down so I honestly didn't even know what they looked like. Whatever was in that enclosure seemed to be self sufficient though so I have no idea what they were feeding off.


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## aberreef (Aug 10, 2010)

I don't culture them either but from what I've read they can roam around the house for a long time without food. The keepers may have some culture medium hidden away in the enclosure somewhere or someone was a little OTT with feeding:whistling2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Zoo enclosures are different from a house in that nobody would bat an eyelid at seeing a few beetles or weevils crawling around.
It`s to be expected.
What they probably have is a weevil culture lying at the rear of the viv where upon hatching the weevils go walkies and then become food on tap for the frogs.
The frogs might not initially like the taste of the weevils but damn they wolf them down when they`re used to them.
Anyone with large frogs should be using been weevils for every other feed.
The trick is to not feed too many at once as the buggers play dead and the frogs then ignore them.
That's when you end up with escapees getting out of the viv.


Mike


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

frogman955 said:


> Zoo enclosures are different from a house in that nobody would bat an eyelid at seeing a few beetles or weevils crawling around.
> It`s to be expected.
> What they probably have is a weevil culture lying at the rear of the viv where upon hatching the weevils go walkies and then become food on tap for the frogs.
> The frogs might not initially like the taste of the weevils but damn they wolf them down when they`re used to them.
> ...


Mike, that's exactly what I was after. Is it hugely impractical to have a weevil culture at the back of a regular sized viv then? I can only imagine humidity is going to cause problems aswell before you even get in to escapees......


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Jonny.
There are ways around the humidity problem (which does affect weevil cultures).
But the problem with weevils is that they don`t hatch 2 or 3 at a time.
A culture can go from zero to a thousand overnight.
Obviously that depends on the size of the culture.
I`ve learnt that it`s not a good idea to have a large bean weevil culture as it make harvesting them harder due to the way their numbers explode.
Small cultures (200 peas) are best for this and it also allows you to stagger their hatching times so that you have a steady flow rather than boom and bust.
If you are contemplating having a food source on tap I think the best way to do it is have a small culture outside the viv to the side, connected by a small bore pipe of say 10mm dia.
Weevils are excellent climbers so on hatching they`d be able to crawl along the pipe away from the culture and into the viv.
This would mean having an extra hole somewhere on the viv for the pipe, maybe in the mesh on the top where the weevils could then drop into the viv.
But it also means you could have the culture sitting on top of the viv for easy access by you.
And more importantly the culture would be away from the viv humidity.


Mike


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## Tappers (Jan 22, 2008)

I use bean weevils for the Earless dragons but despite having them about I don't use them for many of the frogs. The big Azzies take them but even they prefer to take a larger quantity of smaller items such as melanogaster fruit flies. 

I'm sure that the frogs would take microcrickets but given the tendency for the odd cricket to appear in the lizard vivs I'd never risk them in the dart vivs where a single moult would make them a liability. 

Fruit flies really are the best solution for my needs


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> Anyone with large frogs should be using been weevils for every other feed.


Why do you feel that way, Mike? 

I have lots of Tincs and have never fed Weevils. I've managed to get them to a very good size too. 

I have a single culture of Weevils here now and hopefully it it produces. The adults have died off but see lots of eggs on the beans.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

First up, fruit flies are NOT a problem ever. You may get a few escapes when you first start out, but these are flightless so easily squished. Culturing them is a snap, and to be really really really blunt anybody who can't manage to keep fruit flies alive has no place keeping pets of any sort.

As to bean weevils, I don't use them. Many tincs struggle to swallow them for example, and a lot of my frogs will refuse them full stop. Then there is the fact that if they escape they're pretty quickly into packets in your pantry, they're not half as picky about their food as the name bean weevil would suggest.

I do however culture grain weevils. These are also escape artists, but they can't chew through stainless stell mesh so I just use this for vents, rather than j cloths etc. If I do get escapes, I just put a tub of pearl barley out and pretty soon they're all in that, at which point I put a lid on it, et voila a new grain weevil culture. :lol2:

Would I feed these as a staple? Nope.

Crickets, I wont feed these any more to most of my darts as the times I have I've then had to treat my frogs with Panacur each and every time. There's plenty of evidence that they often have guts full of nasty bacteria etc thanks to been cultured in less than hygienic conditions, and when fed to more delicate species can pass on pathogens. Some folks have great success feeding darts crickets, these are the lucky folks who've found a clean source or are culturing their own.

Sorry but there's just no need to replace ffs as the staple food for darts though. The only time they are a problem is when wild ones get into your home, but this rarely has anything at all to do with your cultures and is more often something getting missed in the kitchen, eg. empty tomato tins, a potato rolled behind a unit etc. Remove the food source, hang some fly papers, a week later flies are gone. I also really don't get how anybody can prefer crickets to fruit flies, crickets are seriously horrid things. :lol2: Those things escape and they're into everything, pooping everywhere and then making that awful chirping noise inches from your ear when you try to sleep at night. Then there's when they manage to actually mature in your viv and end up mowing down your lovely plants... :devil: Crickets are EVIL I tell you! :lol2:

Variety is a good thing with dart frogs and similar, but fruit flies should always be the staple imho.


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## Malagasy (Nov 27, 2011)

ronnyjodes said:


> Stu, you might be able to help with this one. I was at Chester Zoo recently and in their dart enclosures there were thousands of tiny black insects, they looked like beetles or little black roaches as they seemed to have a bit of an exoskeleton. They looked to be breeding in the enclosure and not just added daily as their numbers were so high. They seemed like a great food source and seeing as they were just living alongside the frogs like our springs and woods do I figured they'd be an amazing feeder option. Have you any idea what they could be? I tried to find a minion but there was nobody around :-(. I've even contemplated contacting the zoo to see if anybody there can shed any light on it because I'm pretty much stumped.


Having been there when they where feeding them I can tell you that they are micro crickets and they use them as a staple at Chester!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Malagasy said:


> Having been there when they where feeding them I can tell you that they are micro crickets and they use them as a staple at Chester!


This ties in with my statement about crickets earlier. As a zoo I should imagine that they are producing their own, meaning they're been produced cleanly. Crickets make a very very good staple for darts, especially young ones as they're brilliant for growth. But the problem is that too many of the ones available commercially are bred in sub optimal conditions where hygiene is concerned.

There's also the very simple fact that mature crickets are destructive when it comes to plants.

Ade


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I have no problems culturing fruit flies, I keep a colony of crickets, fruit flies don't bother me. But like most people, if I can find an alternative that is as effective, yet easier I would be interested. (i would use roaches, but the girlfriend will not allow them)
I can culture my own crickets, I have a Leo that will take them if they go over sized for darts. 

Does anyone use an ant colony as a feeder?


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Malagasy said:


> Having been there when they where feeding them I can tell you that they are micro crickets and they use them as a staple at Chester!


Yeah, they definitely weren't micro crickets as I know what they look like. They were the aforementioned weevils. Thanks though .


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

young pallid cockroaches are supposed to be good for darts, but alas, more likely to escape than dubia's


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> Stu, you might be able to help with this one. I was at Chester Zoo recently and in their dart enclosures there were thousands of tiny black insects, they looked like beetles or little black roaches as they seemed to have a bit of an exoskeleton. They looked to be breeding in the enclosure and not just added daily as their numbers were so high. They seemed like a great food source and seeing as they were just living alongside the frogs like our springs and woods do I figured they'd be an amazing feeder option. Have you any idea what they could be? I tried to find a minion but there was nobody around :-(. I've even contemplated contacting the zoo to see if anybody there can shed any light on it because I'm pretty much stumped.


Jon sounds like good old Mike/Huw has ya sorted anyway,but with Malagasy's post on board now as well and with me being unable to help further,maybe one of you could contact Chester just to confirm what you saw. Buddy not in anyway doubting anyone,just more about curiosity on my part.One never knows when something new has been found, it might not filter down to us from a Zoo for ages,me I just want to know more :lol2: on every facet of dart keeping So if either of you grab a chance(Malagasy you may well know whom to speak to about the complete diet at the Zoo),I'd just be grateful to know exactly what you saw and exactly how they go about feeding their dart frogs.

Callum a mate here ,unfortunately not in Blighty now, did use a certain species of tropical ant,he actually offered me a start of them,Shaz put her foot down on that one so a non starter. I have no means to contact him now,so can't even give you species ID But I can tell you he is the only guy I know of and brit ants I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I think i'm right in saying all brit species have the ability to squirt formic acid for one. Plus i have come across at least two cases this year of folks having to strip out a viv,so although ants oft feature highly in wild diets,use extreme caution over them as a feeder bro. A lot of research would be needed before I would venture there,too many risks for this humble keeper.

So with all the posts so far i think you have a pretty balanced take on what is available,for sure ff are up there as the number one staple,ease of culturing rapid consistant number increases,just make them numero uno. oh mate milkweed bugs are another add to the list species,not a staple(I don't think ,haven't cultured),but might add something to vary that diet.

good luck guys Jon sorry can't input more,kiddo. When one doesn't know,well one doesn't know. So, let's try and find out sommit hey mate,one never knows what we might all learn:2thumb: LMFAO we always say to new members ask the questions, dude. We are all still new as well,can't beat being a novice hey mate. Zoo keepers are just like us,I'm sure they would be really helpful,we all have the same passion:2thumb:

bring it on

Stu


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## mattbeighton (Aug 25, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Jon sounds like good old Mike/Huw has ya sorted anyway, but with Malagasy's post on board now as well and with me being unable to help further, maybe one of you could contact Chester just to confirm what you saw. Buddy not in anyway doubting anyone,just more about curiosity on my part.One never knows when something new has been found, it might not filter down to us from a Zoo for ages,me I just want to know more :lol2: on every facet of dart keeping So if either of you grab a chance(Malagasy you may well know whom to speak to about the complete diet at the Zoo),I'd just be grateful to know exactly what you saw and exactly how they go about feeding their dart frogs.
> 
> Callum a mate here ,unfortunately not in Blighty now, did use a certain species of tropical ant,he actually offered me a start of them,Shaz put her foot down on that one so a non starter. I have no means to contact him now,so can't even give you species ID But I can tell you he is the only guy I know of and brit ants I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I think i'm right in saying all brit species have the ability to squirt formic acid for one. Plus i have come across at least two cases this year of folks having to strip out a viv,so although ants oft feature highly in wild diets,use extreme caution over them as a feeder bro. A lot of research would be needed before I would venture there,too many risks for this humble keeper.
> 
> ...


I have a few colonies of British black ants on the go and I don't believe they squirt formic acid. Reds and forest ants can though. Also if you only fed worker ants it would never create a nest as it wouldn't be possible. Not saying they are any good, but black ants are free, easy and may work?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I remember when I started keeping, a few folks tried black ants. It didn't work, the frogs just wouldn't eat them at all. I am quite sure that by now if they did there would be plenty of people using them as live food. 

Re milkweed bugs, there was a brief fad on using ones raised on sunflower seeds so they weren't toxic. It faded away though it seems to the point where I rarely see them mentioned as feeders now.

I've used Turkistan roach nymphs for darts before now, and they were taken with gusto. However my attempt to culture these ended in abject failure. Plus they are identical in appearance to the oriental cockroach considered a pest here in the UK, so if you live in rented accomodation they don't always go down well with landlords. lol

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

mattbeighton said:


> I have a few colonies of British black ants on the go and I don't believe they squirt formic acid. Reds and forest ants can though. Also if you only fed worker ants it would never create a nest as it wouldn't be possible. Not saying they are any good, but black ants are free, easy and may work?


Ants are complex little guys Matt,can some workers get a colony going? Could infertile female workers revert and one become fertile under certain conditions? Just two very simple Q's that if not given a 100% assurance then as above leave alone,I never doubt natures infinite ways to achieve success as regards procreation,i'm no entomologist,not by any stretch ,but I'm wary,because life finds ways,essentially we have to kill something with our inadequacies: give it a chance, give it something to work with and off it goes.

Our dart hobby has moved forward so far and so fast in recent years,we have alot of folks consistently exploring boundaries and pushing them,but one of the most used wild feeders ants has barely figured, why? 

Simply we need exactly the right species that wont cause us more problems than we already have in our small tiny glass boxes,i guess we have to make concessions to that,it ain't like a rainforest :lol2: where things can get away from other things. we create microcosms of that,with all those pitfalls

best

Stu


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## mattbeighton (Aug 25, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Ants are complex little guys Matt,can some workers get a colony going? Could infertile female workers revert and one become fertile under certain conditions? Just two very simple Q's that if not given a 100% assurance then as above leave alone,I never doubt natures infinite ways to achieve success as regards procreation,i'm no entomologist,not by any stretch ,but I'm wary,because life finds ways,essentially we have to kill something with our inadequacies: give it a chance, give it something to work with and off it goes.
> 
> Our dart hobby has moved forward so far and so fast in recent years,we have alot of folks consistently exploring boundaries and pushing them,but one of the most used wild feeders ants has barely figured, why?
> 
> ...


Good points


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

On the side of food culturing.

Has anyone seen this?
Farm 432 machine uses maggots to 'grow your own protein at home' | Mail Online


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

was reading about this the other day, much cleaner method of culturing soldier flies, but it's aimed mainly at them breeding and dying so you get the grub to eat


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

But then the maggotts become flies and it cycles again? Or have I missed something?


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

plasma234 said:


> But then the maggotts become flies and it cycles again? Or have I missed something?


oh yeah, but i'm interested in the flies :lol2: plus that machine will no doubt cost a bomb because it'll be targeted at yuppies wanting to eat eco lol


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I must get a 3d printer..


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

aha good plan

there's a bloke in america selling this Purchase the BSF Bio-composter » Black Soldier Fly Blog . think it works on the idea the grubs crawl up the ramp and drop into the bag and then turn into flies in there, but cant find out to say how it works 100%


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

plasma234 said:


> On the side of food culturing.
> 
> Has anyone seen this?
> Farm 432 machine uses maggots to 'grow your own protein at home' | Mail Online


Now I just want to puke...

I'd turn vege before I'd eat maggots.


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## aberreef (Aug 10, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> Ants are complex little guys Matt,can some workers get a colony going? Could infertile female workers revert and one become fertile under certain conditions?


I doubt it very much:hmm:

I think (happy to learn otherwise) ants are pretty much like honey bees in their breeding habits. The virgin queens make one mating flight in their life where they get fertilised by several males, after which the males die. The sperm collected by the queen will last her entire life.

If a queen dies, all her female offspring have the potential to lay unfertilised eggs but these will result in small, useless males which cannot breed. Workers aren't capable of mating. Some species reproduce by parthenogenesis but I don't think our natives do.

It's interesting that the only thing that differentiates whether a larvae develops into a worker or a queen is the food it's fed until it pupates: victory:


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Has anyone ever used book lice? I have seen some Americans have attracted a culture by accident, and then have attempted to culture with mixed results. Has anyone over here attempted?


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