# Bearded dragon humidity



## lewkini (May 12, 2009)

Just testing my viv for humidity with an exo terra hygrometer.

What are ok levels? Is it normal for humidity to rise overnight when all lights are off? 

Finally where's best to place the probe just for testing purposes as it won't be in there all the time!

Cheers

Lewis


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## GeorgiaAndJayFuzz (Jan 27, 2013)

lewkini said:


> Just testing my viv for humidity with an exo terra hygrometer.
> 
> What are ok levels? Is it normal for humidity to rise overnight when all lights are off?
> 
> ...


Bearded dragons need very low (if any!!!) humidity. And enough will come from a water bowl in the viv. 
I would waste your time measuring them.


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## tremerz97 (Nov 30, 2012)

lewkini said:


> Just testing my viv for humidity with an exo terra hygrometer.
> 
> What are ok levels? Is it normal for humidity to rise overnight when all lights are off?
> 
> ...


hi, its normal for it to rise at night! and test it in the hot end and cool end  and day time shouldnt be over 20% i think?


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

This is a tough one for me. I think a good setup will contain areas of both low humidity (mainly) and slightly humid areas. This is what they utilise in the wild, hot arid conditions out under the sun accompanied by higher humidity areas such as burrows. It's difficult to find specific info regarding this but it's the way I'm currently thinking. My cool end sits unders 30%, hot end much lower, I haven't yet checked any burrows humidity as I don't wish to disturb too much.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Have you got substrate they can burrow in now Tom?


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## lewkini (May 12, 2009)

Many thanks for the replies!

Its currently sitting in the cool end and its at 32% with that lights being off since 8:30! Ill measure its tomorrow and report back but currently i haven't got any water in there lol!

Lewis


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

I prefer no water in there and just give the bearded dragons baths twice a week for adults and once a day for babies. 

lewkini if you haven't got any water in the viv I don't think there is any need to worry about humidity. 

Guinea : victory:


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

I agree with Tomc,

Personally, I'd say so long as it's not constantly, say, above 50% there should be no problems.

They do burrow etc and are often (and for long periods) exposed to a decent amount of humidity.


So long as you don't go all out tropical on that dragon's ass he should be fine :2thumb:


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

jarich said:


> Have you got substrate they can burrow in now Tom?


I'm currently testing with my baby rankins. She has about a 3" deep substrate in areas (not much I know, but I'm starting small!). I plan to make some large adjustments to my 6x2x2 build so will incorporate similar if I like what I see.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

tomcannon said:


> I'm currently testing with my baby rankins. She has about a 3" deep substrate in areas (not much I know, but I'm starting small!). I plan to make some large adjustments to my 6x2x2 build so will incorporate similar if I like what I see.


Very cool. Im going to be doing the same, though I think Ill go for about 8 inches. I wanted to wait for a while longer to hear back from the keepers I know that have them on deep substrate, just to be on the safe side. This is going on a year now for those guys that have been doing this, (longer for one of them) and so far no issues at all. One of the most interesting things I found from all their experiences is how quickly the dragons started burrowing. Literally every single one said that the dragons burrowed immediately upon being put back in the enclosure, as in within seconds/minutes. Even monitors, who are known for digging a lot, are pickier than that about their burrows. To find out that dragons are bigger burrowers than monitors kind of sealed the decision for me.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

jarich said:


> Very cool. Im going to be doing the same, though I think Ill go for about 8 inches. I wanted to wait for a while longer to hear back from the keepers I know that have them on deep substrate, just to be on the safe side. This is going on a year now for those guys that have been doing this, (longer for one of them) and so far no issues at all. One of the most interesting things I found from all their experiences is how quickly the dragons started burrowing. Literally every single one said that the dragons burrowed immediately upon being put back in the enclosure, as in within seconds/minutes. Even monitors, who are known for digging a lot, are pickier than that about their burrows. To find out that dragons are bigger burrowers than monitors kind of sealed the decision for me.


I never thought beardies would be active diggers, more stealing others burrows or wedging themselves in little rocks cracks. I learn something new everyday :2thumb:

Better start keeping them like monitors then... that's not going to go down well with most people...

OP I wouldn't worry about humidity unless you spray the tank and have a water bowl under the heat light! Variation in humidity is normal and perfectly fine, it naturally gets higher at night so again, I wouldn't worry.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

jarich said:


> Very cool. Im going to be doing the same, though I think Ill go for about 8 inches. I wanted to wait for a while longer to hear back from the keepers I know that have them on deep substrate, just to be on the safe side. This is going on a year now for those guys that have been doing this, (longer for one of them) and so far no issues at all. One of the most interesting things I found from all their experiences is how quickly the dragons started burrowing. Literally every single one said that the dragons burrowed immediately upon being put back in the enclosure, as in within seconds/minutes. Even monitors, who are known for digging a lot, are pickier than that about their burrows. To find out that dragons are bigger burrowers than monitors kind of sealed the decision for me.


That's it, I'm starting small as it unknown territory to me. I purposefully built a hide with a good few inches of substrate in however she hasn't used this. Within minutes of me putting her in she had disappeared. Didn't know where she was, checked the hide, no luck. She popped out from under a rock which I didn't even now was accessible. That's her favourite haunt, she pops in and out all day and returns there in the evening to sleep. She must have dug it out to an extent however I don't hear any attempted burrowing now she's in there.


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## lewkini (May 12, 2009)

Cheers for all the replies,

After monitoring it for 24hours the lowest the humidity went was 32% which was during the day and at night it rose to 38%

These were all recorded in the cool end, just to double check is this ok?

Thanks

Lewis


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

lewkini said:


> Cheers for all the replies,
> 
> After monitoring it for 24hours the lowest the humidity went was 32% which was during the day and at night it rose to 38%
> 
> ...


It'll be fine mate. If that's the cool end then your hot end and basking will be much lower, almost none existent. He can regulate himself well enough with those percentages.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

jarich said:


> Very cool. Im going to be doing the same, though I think Ill go for about 8 inches. I wanted to wait for a while longer to hear back from the keepers I know that have them on deep substrate, just to be on the safe side. This is going on a year now for those guys that have been doing this, (longer for one of them) and so far no issues at all. One of the most interesting things I found from all their experiences is how quickly the dragons started burrowing. Literally every single one said that the dragons burrowed immediately upon being put back in the enclosure, as in within seconds/minutes. Even monitors, who are known for digging a lot, are pickier than that about their burrows. To find out that dragons are bigger burrowers than monitors kind of sealed the decision for me.


What substrate?


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

A mix of topsoil and sand. For these guys Im thinking more in the range of 50/50 as a ratio. I may try to add some clay to the soil too.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

jarich said:


> A mix of topsoil and sand. For these guys Im thinking more in the range of 50/50 as a ratio. I may try to add some clay to the soil too.


What about impaction risk?


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

richwhite said:


> What about impaction risk?


What about it?! :whistling2:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

tomcannon said:


> What about it?! :whistling2:


Are you not concerned about it? Clay and soil are heavy substrates that also clump. Considering there are some gnarly x-rays of dragons impacted, and fatally so, from calci sand clumping in the gut, isn't such a mix quite risky?


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## legallyblonde (May 13, 2013)

richwhite said:


> Are you not concerned about it? Clay and soil are heavy substrates that also clump. Considering there are some gnarly x-rays of dragons impacted, and fatally so, from calci sand clumping in the gut, isn't such a mix quite risky?


I don't know why you'd risk it either, it is more common than you think, if there is a way of making it not a risk surely thats better?


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

I've never had any issues and have always used loose substrates. Don't get me wrong I believe there's a risk but in my opinion only if husbandry is off and/or you have a clumsy feeder. If your dragon isn't searching out supplements and isn't overly clumsy then only the odd particle will be ingested and with decent husbandry and temps a hydrated dragon will pass it easily. 

I know there have been cases but in my opinion I'm sure most of these cases are either down to bad husbandry, individual dragon behaviour and basically a wrong decision on the keepers part. If you're confident enough your dragon is provided for as he should be and that he is capable of being on loose substrate without eating it then its no different from the wild where clay, soil, sand, dirt, dust is everywhere.

But hey, do we really need another substrate debate, a million and one can be found with the search button.


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## Scrimey (May 12, 2012)

Not just calci sand clumps a lot of other sand clump as well play sand especially , I use Homebase - Kiln dried - edging and joining sand ( I think that's it's commercial use :whistling2: ) It still clumps but not in large amounts : victory:


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## Scrimey (May 12, 2012)

Also my boy goes around licking EVERYTHING even the substrate , so he obviously ingests it but he is still on it , because his set-up is of a good standard : victory:


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

I think that impaction is caused by low temperatures and dehydration, or other husbandry related issues, not substrate. A healthy dragon can pass particulate substrate without issue. As was noted above, dragons use their tongue naturally to taste things often. If loose substrate were actually the issue, there would likely be no more dragons in the wild. They naturally live on loose substrate and still use this tongue method all the time. Therefore the impaction risk is a result of something that we do as keepers to change the health of the dragons. The two most common that come to mind are dehydration and low metabolic rates caused by keeping them too cool. A similar problem used to occur in monitors and everyone was told to keep them on newspaper and other foolish substrates 20 years ago. However, it was noted that when kept hydrated and hot, impaction was a thing of the past. Now we all keep them on 2 feet of soil and they thrive. I have a feeling in 20 years the same will be normal protocol for dragons. 

So in answer to your question, no, I am not worried about a risk of impaction. I have healthy animals so there is none.


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## legallyblonde (May 13, 2013)

jarich said:


> I think that impaction is caused by low temperatures and dehydration, or other husbandry related issues, not substrate. A healthy dragon can pass particulate substrate without issue. As was noted above, dragons use their tongue naturally to taste things often. If loose substrate were actually the issue, there would likely be no more dragons in the wild. They naturally live on loose substrate and still use this tongue method all the time. Therefore the impaction risk is a result of something that we do as keepers to change the health of the dragons. The two most common that come to mind are dehydration and low metabolic rates caused by keeping them too cool. A similar problem used to occur in monitors and everyone was told to keep them on newspaper and other foolish substrates 20 years ago. However, it was noted that when kept hydrated and hot, impaction was a thing of the past. Now we all keep them on 2 feet of soil and they thrive. I have a feeling in 20 years the same will be normal protocol for dragons.
> 
> So in answer to your question, no, I am not worried about a risk of impaction. I have healthy animals so there is none.


I don't disagree about bad husbandry being partially the cause, but in the wild they are not on masses of free sand its mainly solid with a little on top - if that makes sense :lol2: 

I took mine off sand because they have a bad aim despite being adults and drag food about a bit :whistling2:

My philosophy is if there is a risk of something like that just don't do it, but it is everyones choice, I always tell newbies not too especially for young beardies, because as you say temps etc could be off. 

End of the day people need to do the research and make up their own mind


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Interesting points, but how much evidence is there that it's husbandry? There are posts on this very forum by keepers with perfect temps who had sand blockages. I also agree with the above, in the wild they are predominately on rock with some sand on top, but it isn't like a beach. 

I'm not judging, I love the look and am sure the animals enjoy it, personally i find it frustrating with insects burrowing etc, and I am not yet confident enough to say there is no risk of impaction if temps are correct

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

legallyblonde said:


> I don't disagree about bad husbandry being partially the cause, but in the wild they are not on masses of free sand its mainly solid with a little on top - if that makes sense :lol2:
> 
> I took mine off sand because they have a bad aim despite being adults and drag food about a bit :whistling2:
> 
> ...


Type in 'wild bearded dragons' into google. You'll see that, although they are found in baked, cracked floor desert areas, they are also found in (loose) sandy/pebbly areas and in areas with tons of vegetation and water (often a soil type substrate). They really are found in a huge number of habitats on a wide variety of substrates.

As you said, each person needs to do their research and tailor the substrate to the individual and what the owner is comfortable with : victory:



richwhite said:


> Interesting points, but how much evidence is there that it's husbandry? There are posts on this very forum by keepers with perfect temps who had sand blockages. I also agree with the above, in the wild they are predominately on rock with some sand on top, but it isn't like a beach.
> 
> I'm not judging, I love the look and am sure the animals enjoy it, personally i find it frustrating with insects burrowing etc, and I am not yet confident enough to say there is no risk of impaction if temps are correct
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2


'Perfect' temperatures are subjective. Some people maintain that a basking spot of 90F is sufficient for beardies whereas others say 105-115F and few say 130F+. There is evidence that husbandry is the main cause of impaction, I'll fish around for journals for you : victory:


You also have to weigh up the positives about loose substrate (it's not all 'negative' and should not be perceived so!). Often they allow for wide humidity and temperature gradients, a variety of lay spots for females and enrichment (whether digging for food or creating tunnels). In captivity I feel we should aim to allow the animals choice, providing substrates (and even a variety of them within a setup) allows for this and could actually provide far more physical and mental benefits than we give it credit for.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

vgorst said:


> 'Perfect' temperatures are subjective. Some people maintain that a basking spot of 90F is sufficient for beardies whereas others say 105-115F and few say 130F+. There is evidence that husbandry is the main cause of impaction, I'll fish around for journals for you : victory:


Central bearded dragons come from moister, more humid environments than others. 

Main cause doesn't mean only cause though. If temperatures are subjective, doesn't that affect the theory that impaction won't occur with the right temperatures? 

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

richwhite said:


> Central bearded dragons come from moister, more humid environments than others.
> 
> Main cause doesn't mean only cause though. If temperatures are subjective, doesn't that affect the theory that impaction won't occur with the right temperatures?
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2


No, as said it could still happen with one individual dragon regardless of husbandry and temps just like I'm sure it happens in the wild, just not as often as in captivity. By perfect temps are subjective vgorst means that not everyone agrees on one best temp especially as it differs per dragon. If metabolic rate is high and food is being digested properly, efficiently, is passed fully digested and the dragon is maintaining hydration then I would describe that as perfect temps, it could be 105 for one dragon and 120 for another. In these situations I don't believe impaction can happen but in other situations I agree it can.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Have you been to the outback? :lol2: There is plenty of loose substrate there, trust me. The other thing to consider is that dragons dig extensively in the wild. They are a burrowing lizard. So again, small particulate being an issue makes no sense to me unless you are talking a dehydrated, cold lizard. But hey, keep them on whatever tickles your fancy. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

The only temperatures that are perfect are what your dragon wants. They are incredible thermoregulators, with a specificity not really seen in other commonly kept lizards. They know what they need much more than any of us ever will. So the goal is to provide the best gradient of temperature for their health. Dragons have an optimal body temperature of 34-36 C. However they each reach that goal in different ways individually. I provide mine with a gradient from around 55 C or so down to about 20 C during the day. While it doesnt use the hottest basking point a lot, it does get used. It rarely uses the coolest part of the enclosure, but occasionally will go that way too. The point is that the animal has the option of choosing the right temp, not me.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

richwhite said:


> Central bearded dragons come from moister, more humid environments than others.
> 
> Main cause doesn't mean only cause though. If temperatures are subjective, doesn't that affect the theory that impaction won't occur with the right temperatures?
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2



That's why I said *main* cause, not only cause  temperature and hydration are important factors but so is diet and supplementation (intentional ingestion of substrate is often due to dietary problems). Inappropriate substrate may also be a cause too, if it's large enough to be ingested but too big to pass out the other end, well then you'll have a problem too.

Tom realised what I meant! If a beardy cannot reach a temperature where it's digestive/metabolic system works efficiently, then of course you will have problems too.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

See I don't get the whole it's a "risk" thing.
All aspects of husbandry have there risks, it doesn't matter what it is, stats can fail and so can heating appliances, animals can fall from their shelves onto solid tile flooring and injure themselves, some animals can hurt themselves by charging straight at glass thinking their is a rival or just sheer confusion.

Substrate use is no less risky than any of the above, it just seems to be one "risk" people love to highlight more than the others. 

When you draw and put it into persepctive, the benefits of using a substrate far outweigh the negatives, just as are the benefits of using a spot lamp opposed to the risks of a fire, and so on. 

Impaction is very rare, none of my vets have ever seen it! one of them has been practising for 20 years, with only a handful of reptile specialist vets in the UK, and so many reported claims of impaction, I find that very VERY questionable, people are blaming things like this with no proof, or expirience to back up the claims, they blame something when it clearly isn't that. and so the whole thing becomes highlighted, regurgitated, and spread around like an infection in the community causing confusion among keepers by no fault of their own again by keepers (who have never expirienced it)

Anyone can make a website and add onto it what they want, anyone can add into the wikipedia, and anyone can post across forums and post what they want, just because a big "breeder" says so doesn't make something right.


Many big breeders also advise using dry formulated diets which contain no stem fiber, and have hundreds of question marks surrounding them, and yet many animals are dieing because of these diets, but these are also things that go unchallanged, just because a big name is behind them. 



Nonsense, no other word for it.
Just had to pick up on that  anyways il be off to bed now.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

vgorst said:


> Tom realised what I meant! If a beardy cannot reach a temperature where it's digestive/metabolic system works efficiently, then of course you will have problems too.


I realised what you meant, i'm just curious as to the idea that's all. My dragon lately has been pooing only once a week, sometimes less than that, and has often been down the cool end. Although she has the required temperature gradient, that's how she's choosing to be and her lack of food has slowed her digestion down, so i would be concerned that she would be at a higher risk.

Like i said before, i'm not judging. Tom has made some amazing vivs for his dragons and i would love to do the same. I keep my snake on bark and i know plenty of others keep snakes on newspaper for fear of impaction or torn cloacas from a sharp piece of bark tearing them - I decided the risk was small enough to take. I would *probably* take the same view with dragons if the loose substrate wasn't cumbersome in other ways - for instance, insects hiding in it, getting stuck in the runners, time consuming to clean out etc


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> See I don't get the whole it's a "risk" thing.
> All aspects of husbandry have there risks, it doesn't matter what it is, stats can fail and so can heating appliances, animals can fall from their shelves onto solid tile flooring and injure themselves, some animals can hurt themselves by charging straight at glass thinking their is a rival or just sheer confusion.
> 
> Substrate use is no less risky than any of the above, it just seems to be one "risk" people love to highlight more than the others.
> ...


What substrate do you use and what are the benefits that outweigh the negatives?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> What substrate do you use and what are the benefits that outweigh the negatives?


In no particular order I could give you 5 reasons off the top of my head (first brew of the day)

I use a sand and soil mixture for my bearded dragons, the benefits are they don't slide all over the place and can function as they are genetically programmed too, if the female cycles (I don't *need* to provide a nesting box) because the whole enclosure is an entire nesting site, with a layer of soil underneath the sand, it functions as a digging area with a humidity gradient (admitedly it isn't as deep as I would like it to be, but it works, so the female can choose where she wants to drop the eggs, though that isn't to say I don't provide a nesting site, I do because that is just one more option for her to decide, but if she chooses not to use it, I wouldn't freak out over it, mum knows best 


Secondly is the traction and locomotion of substrate while the animal decides to move across it, they don't slide all over the place, which when kept on newspaper or paper towleling, or lino, they do, and I put the risk of them injuring themselves higher than with that of a substrate, those feet grip solidly to the floor, they are not going to slide all over, injure themselves in any way (something which I have actually seen happen) 

Thirdly if they were climbing cage decor and decided to leap, I consider it safer for them to fall onto a nice soft layer of sand and soil opposed to a hard solid floor (same principle with many of my arboreals and semi arboreals too) (again before I moved house I made a thread about something similar) I prepared the iguana enclosure for moving my female climbed down from her shelf, a branch sliped because there was no substrate, she fell down onto solid tile flooring and injured herself, (cost me a vet bill that did) same principle applies. (I would be interested in a well argued response to that actually) how is not using a substrate safer in these cases. 

fourthly It looks nice and appealing to the eye, not only that but it serves a purpose of giving me heads ups and warnings, if I see them injesting a small amount, I would be investigating a few things, these are warnings and signs that can't be displayed with paper toweling, for example seeing something like that could be a sign of them having parasites, or they may be under nourished, and so I would begin investigating those.

Fifthly, I consider it much safer to use particulates when you look at it this way, keeping them on paper toweling, or nespaper or whatever else isn't entirely risk proof, water spills on it when your not there, it clumps up, said beardie displays a symtom discussed above and tries to eat the clumped up newspaper, I consider that much more of a risk than them eating very small amounts of particulate.

I would be interested in 5 reasons I shouldn't use it because I could go on and on  : victory:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> In no particular order I could give you 5 reasons off the top of my head (first brew of the day)
> 
> I use a sand and soil mixture for my bearded dragons, the benefits are they don't slide all over the place and can function as they are genetically programmed too, if the female cycles (I don't *need* to provide a nesting box) because the whole enclosure is an entire nesting site, with a layer of soil underneath the sand, it functions as a digging area with a humidity gradient (admitedly it isn't as deep as I would like it to be, but it works, so the female can choose where she wants to drop the eggs, though that isn't to say I don't provide a nesting site, I do because that is just one more option for her to decide, but if she chooses not to use it, I wouldn't freak out over it, mum knows best
> 
> ...


Interesting, thanks!

How often do you need to change it, and do bugs 'disappear' in there? I fully agree with it looking much, much nicer


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Interesting, thanks!
> 
> How often do you need to change it, and do bugs 'disappear' in there? I fully agree with it looking much, much nicer


I often change it in patches which isn't often tbh.
I allow my beardies alot of out of enclosure time, I do beleive in giving them enrichment oppurtunity and exercise which is something I can't provide in a 4ft enclosure, most of our captives are fat, optimal temps all day long, food in abundancy etc, and so I let mine out alot they tend to defecate when I have them outside, or they hit a surface rather cooler, usually before I let them run about my brand new carpets I will plop them in the shower (not for hydration) just to encourage them to take a crap, which is mimimal mainteanance for me, the only things I actually need to do in the enclosure often are spot clean and pick up any dried leaves, if they do take a poo I spot clean that area and replace with nice clean substrate again, though the thought of bioactivity has crossed my mind, I can't see that lasting very long. 


I just spot check, and clean as and when it is needed. : victory:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I often change it in patches which isn't often tbh.
> I allow my beardies alot of out of enclosure time, I do beleive in giving them enrichment oppurtunity and exercise which is something I can't provide in a 4ft enclosure, most of our captives are fat, optimal temps all day long, food in abundancy etc, and so I let mine out alot they tend to defecate when I have them outside, or they hit a surface rather cooler, usually before I let them run about my brand new carpets I will plop them in the shower (not for hydration) just to encourage them to take a crap, which is mimimal mainteanance for me, the only things I actually need to do in the enclosure often are spot clean and pick up any dried leaves, if they do take a poo I spot clean that area and replace with nice clean substrate again, though the thought of bioactivity has crossed my mind, I can't see that lasting very long.
> 
> 
> I just spot check, and clean as and when it is needed. : victory:


How about the bugs? And do you have any photos of a beardie enclosure?

What do you do for enrichment?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> How about the bugs? And do you have any photos of a beardie enclosure?
> 
> What do you do for enrichment?


Bugs have sometimnes dissapeard into the substrates, behind enclosure decoration etc, but if anything, I call it a challange and a form of enrichment to make the beardies look for their food. 

My bearded dragon enclosure isn't the leading example, but here you go.
I am working on doing them a fake rock  


















For enrichment oppurtunity I like to get my bearded dragons outside in the natural sunlight where possible, they love to climb the trees and rocks outside, they seem to enjoy eyeing up the insects and grazing weeds, bombing around in the dirt. 


























I also will dot leaves around their enclosure sometimes in more challanging positions for their mental wellbeing and it gives them something to think about, to encourage grazing and more natural behaviors.
Here is some hawthorn leaves I picked from a tree the other day, they dove straight onto them and I just leave the branch in the enclosure, I go back an hour later and there is nothing left.








IMG]http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g333/salazreslytherin/IMG_1210_zpsc208d2a5.jpg[/IMG]









To also keep the interest there, I might on occasion move enclosure furniture around for them, or add in new things like branches which they seem to investigate with keen interest, giving them multiple surfaces like rocks or logs or what ever is good I think.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Bugs have sometimnes dissapeard into the substrates, behind enclosure decoration etc, but if anything, I call it a challange and a form of enrichment to make the beardies look for their food.
> 
> My bearded dragon enclosure isn't the leading example, but here you go.
> I am working on doing them a fake rock
> ...


That's great. I'd like to put mine in the garden but i'd really worry about her going somewhere she shouldn't and getting lost - or eating the wrong thing


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> That's great. I'd like to put mine in the garden but i'd really worry about her going somewhere she shouldn't and getting lost - or eating the wrong thing


build an outdoor enclosure with mesh, its not wise to follow my examples taking reptiles outside with no harness etc. And yeah they can move swiftly lol, good luck and I am gonna puit the iguana outside sincer the sun has decided to show itself. : victory:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> build an outdoor enclosure with mesh, its not wise to follow my examples taking reptiles outside with no harness etc. And yeah they can move swiftly lol, good luck and I am gonna puit the iguana outside sincer the sun has decided to show itself. : victory:


Yeah i intend on getting a small run for her anyway. Now i just wish i knew what plants were/weren't safe for her to eat in the garden


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Yeah i intend on getting a small run for her anyway. Now i just wish i knew what plants were/weren't safe for her to eat in the garden


Alot of weeds.
Dandilion, nettle, bindweed, milk thistle, sowthistle, plantain, hawkbit and clover are very common, all edible. : victory:
Check out the weed sticky in the tortoise section, thats a good starting point, they need lots of roughage in their diets 

Interestingly my bearded dragons walk right through the toxic plants, could be a co-incidence, or preference. I don't know, but either way they know and thats good enough for me, only thing I have seen them try to eatwhich I am not sure about is grass lol.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Alot of weeds.
> Dandilion, nettle, bindweed, milk thistle, sowthistle, plantain, hawkbit and clover are very common, all edible. : victory:
> Check out the weed sticky in the tortoise section, thats a good starting point, they need lots of roughage in their diets
> 
> Interestingly my bearded dragons walk right through the toxic plants, could be a co-incidence, or preference. I don't know, but either way they know and thats good enough for me, only thing I have seen them try to eatwhich I am not sure about is grass lol.


And can those things be fed as staples? The only one i've seen listed on a beardie food list is dandelion


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## legallyblonde (May 13, 2013)

richwhite said:


> And can those things be fed as staples? The only one i've seen listed on a beardie food list is dandelion


One thing I've noticed is that it depends what list you're reading; whilst people agree what not to feed them like what is toxic, they disagree on other things like how regularly you can feed other things. I tend to use staples like rocket which I can buy nice and clean, it is my belief (and please correct me if I am wrong someone) that they can pretty much eat any weeds etc so long as you know they are clean - I bought some dried stuff once from a pet store and that had tons of different weeds in it and was aimed at reps like beardies.


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## legallyblonde (May 13, 2013)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> build an outdoor enclosure with mesh, its not wise to follow my examples taking reptiles outside with no harness etc. And yeah they can move swiftly lol, good luck and I am gonna puit the iguana outside sincer the sun has decided to show itself. : victory:


I've never tried a harness - I tend to take out in a large metal carrier and let them bask... never let them out of it though... am looking at getting some sort of rabbit run for them. whats the best harness to use, I used to have some polecats and their harnesses look too big to be secure


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

legallyblonde said:


> I've never tried a harness - I tend to take out in a large metal carrier and let them bask... never let them out of it though... am looking at getting some sort of rabbit run for them. whats the best harness to use, I used to have some polecats and their harnesses look too big to be secure


If your asking my opinion on harnesses for reptiles, I hate them! I only use them when I really really have too, I had a bad expirience with one a few years ago, nearly killed my iguana in the process too, on top of that, many of the harnesses designed for animals defeat the object of taking them outside for natural sunlight, because they cover half the body and the suns rays can't penetrate them. 

If you have an enclosed garden or yard, you should be fine, if not the best suggestion I can make is build outdoor enclosures where they can be kept safe, and secure and gain the benefit of natural sunlight. 

I wouldn't say one harness was better than the other tbh, but that goes back to what I origonally said, all aspects of husbandry have there risks. : victory:
If your really forced to use a harness you want one that covers the minimal area around your reptile so they can benefit from going outside. 
Hope that helps.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

legallyblonde said:


> One thing I've noticed is that it depends what list you're reading; whilst people agree what not to feed them like what is toxic, they disagree on other things like how regularly you can feed other things. I tend to use staples like rocket which I can buy nice and clean, it is my belief (and please correct me if I am wrong someone) that they can pretty much eat any weeds etc so long as you know they are clean - I bought some dried stuff once from a pet store and that had tons of different weeds in it and was aimed at reps like beardies.


I couldn't agree more, and it also depends on your interpretation of said foods.
Anything in excess can be bad really, nothing is risk proof, everything can be lethal if fed in the right quantities, (even the staples) these foods are usually extrmely high in phytates, oxolates, goitrogens and vitamin A (insoulible vitamin) so peoples varibles will be based on their expirience, knowledge and understanding of the foods.

Most sheets I have read tend to be, they are all fine to feed in "moderation" : victory:
Staple green for spring greens for example, one of the highest goitrogenic foods you can feed, but packed full of nutrition, again, the benefits outweigh the risks of feeding it, but, it still isn't a fool proof food.

Dandilion, is a natural diuretic, (something worth thinking about) etc.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I couldn't agree more, and it also depends on your interpretation of said foods.
> Anything in excess can be bad really, nothing is risk proof, everything can be lethal if fed in the right quantities, (even the staples) these foods are usually extrmely high in phytates, oxolates, goitrogens and vitamin A (insoulible vitamin) so peoples varibles will be based on their expirience, knowledge and understanding of the foods.
> 
> Most sheets I have read tend to be, they are all fine to feed in "moderation" : victory:
> Staple green for spring greens for example, one of the highest goitrogenic foods you can feed, but packed full of nutrition, again, the benefits outweigh the risks of feeding it, but, it still isn't a fool proof food.


I worry my beardie isn't getting a decent enough variety, because it's pretty limited in the shops here. She gets spring greens, kale, rocket, spinach, asparagus, green beans, skinned cucumber, carrot and kiwi (not all at once, she usually has 2-4 of these). Is that enough? She's never had dandelion, turnip greens or mustard greens, or any weed mentioned


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> I worry my beardie isn't getting a decent enough variety, because it's pretty limited in the shops here. She gets spring greens, kale, rocket, spinach, asparagus, green beans, skinned cucumber, carrot and kiwi (not all at once, she usually has 2-4 of these). Is that enough? She's never had dandelion, turnip greens or mustard greens, or any weed mentioned


I understand alot of foods can't be aquired in the UK.
Thats why I typed this out.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/879458-what-food-my-2-iguanas.html

It is all about variety  
Aim for a good ca ratio, reduce oxolates where possible.
Balance out goitrogenic foods with rich sources of iodeine, unfortunately foods rich in iodeine are also high in oxolates (thats why I said where possible) (occasional foods once a week)
When feeding live plants, (use vitamin A rich foods mixed in) 
Use a good multivitamin dust  :2thumb:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I understand alot of foods can't be aquired in the UK.
> Thats why I typed this out.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/879458-what-food-my-2-iguanas.html
> ...


Good list, i forgot i also feed herbs and squash.

How do i find out which are goitrogenic, iodeine etc? Can i not just mix a variety and that be ok?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Good list, i forgot i also feed herbs and squash.
> 
> How do i find out which are goitrogenic, iodeine etc? Can i not just mix a variety and that be ok?


Tbh a book could be written, there is no (direct list) though some food charts have given good starting points like the beautiful dragon website. 

You have to sit down and research the foods you intend to feed, "individually" and draw conclusions, learn the positives of feeding, then the negatives of feeding, and decide how often you will feed it based on calculations to get as close to ratios as possible.

You could just feed a variety if you wanted too, many keepers do it that way) but I am pretty specific when it comes to my reptile diets, I like to know what I am feeding.

Here is a pretty specific example, 5 greens at random, took from the GIS food chart.

2.8:1 escarole,1:0.9 endive, 1.86:1 watercress,2:1 raddish greens 2:1 add up all the calcium 2.8+1+1.86+2+2= 10.66 add up all the phosphorus 1+0.9+1+1+1+1= 5.9 divide the total number of calcium by the number of foods chosen 10.66/5= 2.1 (to be smarter is .32 but thats just rounding it up, thats about as close as your gonna get, you can balance that out further by adding in a veggy or fruit a little high in phosphorus, bannana maybe to get the perfect ratio, but you don't have too either, as long as it is within parameters similar to that. 

^^pretty specific example): victory:

As for goitrogenic foods, put it this way. 
Spring greeens (high in goitrogens) (listed as a staple food) 365 days a year, is it suprising that a food like that wouldn't be responsible for causing hormonal imbalance and upset via the thyroid gland? goiter. 

Feeding this food
365 days a year, and only 52 weeks (rounding up) and only once within one of every two of those weeks to compensate fortnightly (which is my own actual routine) (high oxolate but rich iodeine food) chard for example can be used int that time frame within the suggested ratio parameters "safely and as risk free as you can possibly get, thats only 24-26 times out of 365 days, that is less than 7.12% of the actual yearly diet, so you can imagine the next step is for supplmentation.

Nutrition is very complex, bottom line is, its gonna come down to what you want to do, research, feed a variety and hope for the best etc.

Either way, both ways have had good successes. : victory:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Tbh a book could be written, there is no (direct list) though some food charts have given good starting points like the beautiful dragon website.
> 
> You have to sit down and research the foods you intend to feed, "individually" and draw conclusions, learn the positives of feeding, then the negatives of feeding, and decide how often you will feed it based on calculations to get as close to ratios as possible.
> 
> ...


Interesting, thanks.

So to clarify then, when a chart says 'staple', does that mean they *can* have it daily, or they *should* have a staple food daily?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Interesting, thanks.
> 
> So to clarify then, when a chart says 'staple', does that mean they *can* have it daily, or they *should* have a staple food daily?


Staple pretty much just means "regular part of the diet" so 3-4 times a week can be classed as a regular part of the diet. 

Personally I try not to feed foods the same every day, because as I said all foods are less than ideal if fed in too much quantity. 

Food charts are often good starting points, but they shouldn't always be took down to the exact letter, the best way to make decisions is by being informed.

I mix and rotate 5 different greens in with my diet a day (above food list I gave) are my list of regular foods, only one occasional green will be added in weekly, the rest is variety, a little of this and a little of that, and oh well, they haven't had that for a while... kinda thinking for variety.

Hope that helps clarify. 
Staples are all good and can be fed daily in a category and in moderation and rotation with other foods. : victory:

tbh I am probably confusing you, best advice is stick to a food chart ontil you gain a better understanding  some of the foods above I listed are easily aquired here in the UK and are a healthy addition to a beardie veggy dish.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Staple pretty much just means "regular part of the diet" so 3-4 times a week can be classed as a regular part of the diet.
> 
> Personally I try not to feed foods the same every day, because as I said all foods are less than ideal if fed in too much quantity.
> 
> ...


Yeah it is all pretty confusing. I have a bunch of plants growing in my garden, but i don't know what they are and what the dragon is allowed!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Yeah it is all pretty confusing. I have a bunch of plants growing in my garden, but i don't know what they are and what the dragon is allowed!


Yeah, I do jibber on a bit sometimes.
:whistling2:

If you want help IDing certain plants edible for reptile consumption, many torotoise forums and lsits are good starting points (if it is edible for them you can bet your socks it is edible for a bearded dragon) take away the grass and hay etc. 

I think he will be fine with a variety, try to avoid foods like spinach, kale, kiwi too often, they are not the best greens to be feeding  for fruits, (good fruits) morrisons sometimes sell prickily pear, blackberries, papaya, mango, are good additions to a rich calcium roughage diet, infact, some of those fruits are so good, they can be fed more often than some of your root veggies. 

I can't see how you would go wrong feeding a variety with high calcium greens like dandilion, spring greens, rocket, peashoots and herbs etc.
Mix everything else with them.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Yeah, I do jibber on a bit sometimes.
> :whistling2:
> 
> If you want help IDing certain plants edible for reptile consumption, many torotoise forums and lsits are good starting points (if it is edible for them you can bet your socks it is edible for a bearded dragon) take away the grass and hay etc.
> ...


Rocket and spring greens are my main staples i guess. Herbs can be given frequently?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Rocket and spring greens are my main staples i guess. Herbs can be given frequently?


Certainly can, only herb I wouldn't feed as often is parsley, I can't remember where I read it but something comes to mind about it being nutritionally similar to spinach (high oxolate content.)


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Certainly can, only herb I wouldn't feed as often is parsley, I can't remember where I read it but something comes to mind about it being nutritionally similar to spinach (high oxolate content.)


So buy some basil and sage plants and consider them staples then?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

richwhite said:


> So buy some basil and sage plants and consider them staples then?


Yeah, thats what I do


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