# KC reg Puppy buyers for your attention and breeders



## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

*HOT OFF THE PRESS

*The Kennel Club
General Code of Ethics 

All breeders who register their puppies, and new owners who register ownership of their dogs with the Kennel Club, accept the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club and undertake to abide by its general Code of Ethics.

Breeders/Owners: 
Will properly house, feed, water and exercise all dogs under their care and arrange for appropriate veterinary attention if and when required. 
Will agree without reservation that any veterinary surgeon performing an operation on any of their dogs which alters the natural conformation of the animal, may report such operation to the Kennel Club. 
Will agree that no healthy puppy will be culled. Puppies which may not conform to the Breed Standard should be placed in suitable homes. 
Will abide by all aspects of the Animal Welfare Act. 
Will not create demand for, nor supply, puppies that have been docked illegally. 
Will agree not to breed from a dog or bitch which could be in any way harmful to the dog or to the breed. 
Will not allow any of their dogs to roam at large or to cause a nuisance to neighbours or those carrying out official duties. 
Will ensure that their dogs wear properly tagged collars and will be kept leashed or under effective control when away from home. 
Will clean up after their dogs in public places or anywhere their dogs are being exhibited. 
Will only sell dogs where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life and will help with the re-homing of a dog if the initial circumstances change. 
Will supply written details of all dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing dogs in a new home. 
Will ensure that all relevant Kennel Club documents are provided to the new owner when selling or transferring a dog, and will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available. 
Will not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers, retail pet dealers or directly or indirectly allow dogs to be given as a prize or donation in a competition of any kind. Will not sell by sale or auction Kennel Club registration certificates as stand alone items (not accompanying a dog). 
14. Will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of the breed nor falsely advertise dogs nor mislead any person regarding the health or quality of a dog. 

Breach of these provisions may result in expulsion from club membership, and/or disciplinary action by the Kennel Club and/or reporting to the relevant authorities for legal action, as appropriate.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

question...

i have a pure staffy but i didnt know the parents names and i want to get him kc registerd is that possible or no with out the parents names?


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Anyone who buys a kc registered puppy and does not recieve written details of their diet and ownership etc please please advise the KC so that they can take what action is deemed necessary.

The only way we are going to put an end to puppy farmers of KC registered dogs if YOU the public tell the KC who and what has been your experience with individuals. Without evidence they cannot refuse registrations of pups from poor breeders regardless of them being show, obedience or back yard breeders.

If the puppy buying public don't tell they can do nothing.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

You can't register your puppy if the parents weren't registered. There is no way you could register your puppy, because there is no way to know if his/her parents were pedigreed and KC registered.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Only the breeder can register their pups but can do so up until the pups are 6mths old for the standard fee anything over 6mths will cost them £50 per dog. 

Few breeders wait that long to register even in the breeds where coat colours change as the dogs grow up, most will have registered by 12 wks hoping the puppy's colour is correct when they do so.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

The list looks good lets hope it stops the breeders culling puppies with no ridges etc...I am not sure how they will police it though.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Will agree that no healthy puppy will be culled. Puppies which may not conform to the Breed Standard should be placed in suitable homes. 

This is interesting, considering the woman on that bbc program who spoke about her ridgebacks and how she would cull puppies that did not conform. I wonder whether the club will actively police this rule.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

My friend at Avinjas GSD already does all that and more. Its a shame all breeders wont consider all the points on the list


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

Athravan said:


> Will agree that no healthy puppy will be culled. Puppies which may not conform to the Breed Standard should be placed in suitable homes.
> 
> This is interesting, considering the woman on that bbc program who spoke about her ridgebacks and how she would cull puppies that did not conform. I wonder whether the club will actively police this rule.


I also do agree with you regarding the culling of the pups that do not conform to the breed standards.

I watched that program also and what gets me is that the ridgeless pups were culled even though they were healthier than the pups with the ridge.

John


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

*an argument for KC registration.*

right now hear me out, this is a debate topic, not a slagging match.

now, we all know you cannot register any dog, that it can only be registered as a pup and all the other regs on KC registration.

now, i would like you all to consider this. somewhere in the past, some dogs were the initial registration, meaning they we're assessed as breed standards and joined the club without their parents being registered (eg when KC was first opened).

why can't this be done today? what about new breeds (labradoodle) how are they registered? i think the KC are missing a huge niche. they could train assessors, and people are believe they are in possesion of an outstanding un-registered dog, would be able to go and have their dog assessed, and if the dog conforms, they should be able to become members of the KC.

thoughts on this please.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

kirsten said:


> why can't this be done today? what about new breeds (labradoodle) how are they registered? i think the KC are missing a huge niche. they could train assessors, and people are believe they are in possesion of an outstanding un-registered dog, would be able to go and have their dog assessed, and if the dog conforms, they should be able to become members of the KC.


Labradoodles are crossbreeds not a breed and can not be registered.

Some mixes can look liek purebreeds - and they could be falsely registered under a scheme as you suggest - and why would we want to register dogs that were not registered - dogs that are not KC registered (but are KC registerable breeds) tend to not eb registered for several reasons

1. Accidental mating so not the best lines
2. Parents too old or too young so KC refuse
3. Restrictions placed on parents as not suitable for breeding but greedy people breed them anyway and offspring can't be registered
4. Parents have had too many litters so KC won't register
There are others but I can't think of them - but point being that any dog that CAN be registered generally is ... it's those with a reason for not being that aren't - and they tend to be ones who would be best not bred from anyway


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Things are a changing!!

The RSPCA wont support crufts anymore because of this pegigree dog buisiness so lets hope this all makes change for the better.
No doubt you'll still see ads offering PURE BREEDS with no papers in he classifieds.
Marina


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I love the line "pedigree, but no papers"... Don't people know that a pedigree IS THE PAPERS??? *lol*


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> Labradoodles are crossbreeds not a breed and can not be registered.


All pedigree breeds where Labradoodles at one point.Labradoodle though new where bred for a purpose like all pedigrees.Labradoodles was created as guide/help/assistance dogs for people with dog fur allergys.They have the coat of the Poodle(NON! shedding) and Labrador brain/intelligence.And they breed true.That's all the key trait that worrent pedigree status 1-has purpose 2-breeds true.So there is no reason why they can't be a registered breed.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

i notice it dosnt say that "thou shalt not breed father to daughter and mother to grandson " which sadly is the thing that is making the breeds so genetically deformed. its a crock of sh it , and dosnt really address the real problems only goes to try and cover them up to keep people happy.but wont do anything for the dogs being interbred.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Any dog that needs fixing sergerically by a vet for example that peekanees that had to have it muzzle fixed.Or dogs with bad hip score'etc'etc so genetic bad traits.Should be castated or spayed never bred from if a vet says so.And the vet can do this with out breeders concent in the intested of the dog in question and future generations.

IMO somthing along this line should also be there.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

denny2 said:


> i notice it dosnt say that "thou shalt not breed father to daughter and mother to grandson " which sadly is the thing that is making the breeds so genetically deformed. its a crock of sh it , and dosnt really address the real problems only goes to try and cover them up to keep people happy.but wont do anything for the dogs being interbred.


YES! that deffo should be there.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

gazz said:


> Any dog that needs fixing sergerically by a vet for example that peekanees that had to have it muzzle fixed.Or dogs with bad hip score'etc'etc so genetic bad traits.Should be castated or spayed never bred from if a vet says so.And the vet can do this with out breeders concent in the intested of the dog in question and future generations.
> 
> IMO somthing along this line should also be there.


 i quite agree, well said.:2thumb:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

gazz said:


> Any dog that needs fixing sergerically by a vet for example that peekanees that had to have it muzzle fixed.Or dogs with bad hip score'etc'etc so genetic bad traits.Should be castated or spayed never bred from if a vet says so.And the vet can do this with out breeders concent in the intested of the dog in question and future generations.
> 
> IMO somthing along this line should also be there.



:O

If i took my dog to the vet to have his ears syringed and he came back missing his danglies i'd be fuming and very very upset!!!!

For the record my dog is castrated but that is quite a hefty operation and for bitches more so. You have to sign a consent form in case your pet dies during surgery.

What if the vet had the power to go ahead and do these things without you even knowing!!
Please think about what you say before you say it!

Marina


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## ogawa only (Jun 4, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> :O
> 
> If i took my dog to the vet to have his ears syringed and he came back missing his danglies i'd be fuming and very very upset!!!!
> 
> ...


couldn't agree more , people should think the otherway aswell , as now some people are posting like how the bbc and rspca act ....one sided !!


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

gazz said:


> All pedigree breeds where Labradoodles at one point.Labradoodle though new where bred for a purpose like all pedigrees.Labradoodles was created as guide/help/assistance dogs for people with dog fur allergys.They have the coat of the Poodle(NON! shedding) and Labrador brain/intelligence.And they breed true.That's all the key trait that worrent pedigree status 1-has purpose 2-breeds true.So there is no reason why they can't be a registered breed.


I dodn't say they weren't - but the query was re registration - sadly however they are a hundred miles from breeding true and many are not none shedding at all - but the decent breeders in the UK seem to be honest about this fact which is great as I believe that in the States they have loads in rescue because they are still advertised as the ultimate none shedder  

Many are still also still bred as cross breeds which keeps them a long way from registration - and i believe that the purpose they were bred for - was a failed experiment as the none shedding ness can not be guaranteed and the temperaments of many were not as suitable as other breeds/ mixes already used.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> :O
> 
> If i took my dog to the vet to have his ears syringed and he came back missing his danglies i'd be fuming and very very upset!!!!
> 
> ...


I did and i agree with what i said.That peekanees was just fixed,then shown and won crufts,then sired countless offspring,Passing it's BIG defected on.The vet should have said i can fix the dogs muzzle to help it breath esayer but is must be castrated.Why are you using ear syring as a example i mean proper hide the truth surgery.My mum is always getting her ears syring but me and my two sister have never had are ear syring so i wouldn't concider that a heath threatening trait.It not going to hinder future offspring.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Sorry can't do multiple quotes but here goes.

now, i would like you all to consider this. somewhere in the past, some dogs were the initial registration, meaning they we're assessed as breed standards and joined the club without their parents being registered (eg when KC was first opened).

This does happen and they ARE allowed into the registration database when its deemed necessary and REQUESTED BY BREED CLUBS, so its not just when the KC began that dogs were vetted for breed type to be allowed in ITS HAPPENING NOW. Parson Russell Terriers for instance had an 'open registry' only a couple of years ago to increase the Gene pool of breed types ------- something Jemima Harrison and her witch hunt forgot to mention.

All pedigree breeds where Labradoodles at one point.Labradoodle though new where bred for a purpose like all pedigrees.Labradoodles was created as guide/help/assistance dogs for people with dog fur allergys.They have the coat of the Poodle(NON! shedding) and Labrador brain/intelligence.And they breed true.That's all the key trait that worrent pedigree status 1-has purpose 2-breeds true.So there is no reason why they can't be a registered breed.

These dogs are NOT registerable due to the many problems that go with them which is why the GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND STOPPED breeding them. They suffered health problems more than either breed involved, shed far more than expected, had more dogs with behaviour problems and THEY DO NOT BREED TRUE. On the other hand those who are breeding to a specific type, have setup a breed club to oversee the whole process and are doing health tests will follow the same route all other breeds have to become recognised by the KC.

i notice it dosnt say that "thou shalt not breed father to daughter and mother to grandson " which sadly is the thing that is making the breeds so genetically deformed.

That statement is a crock of dodoo love, they are not genetically deformed for a start nor is any disease brought about by inbreeding - if there is no fault on their DNA no disease will emerge. 

Let me give you a couple of examples, my godson is XYY a genetic disorder - his parents are in no way related other than being humans of the opposite gender, his genetic status and subsiquent disease has occured due to an 'insult' to his fathers DNA during the time of sperm production or at time of fertilisation.

My own breed of pedigree dogs has a very small gene pool, a breeder imports 3 dogs from the USA, produces puppies out crossing these 3 dogs to other lines within the UK brilliant Fresh DNA, expanded gene pool all positives. Unfortunately for us a new disease has emerged which we now have a test for thank god. It is fatal, occurs in humans and is recessive again a product of 'insult' to the DNA strands during copying process. Now if we'd kept our breed 'closed' this problem would never have become an issue for UK dogs THAT'S A FACT as it was unheard of anywhere else in the world but is spreading along with US exports! Thing is USA average 3000 of my breed registered annually where as the UK average is approx 70 - 100.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Any dog that needs fixing sergerically by a vet for example that peekanees that had to have it muzzle fixed.Or dogs with bad hip score'etc'etc so genetic bad traits.Should be castated or spayed never bred from if a vet says so.And the vet can do this with out breeders concent in the intested of the dog in question and future generations.

IMO somthing along this line should also be there.

These points are covered by the breed clubs and the Dogs health team, each breed with say Hip issues have a 'breed mean score' ie a score above which an animal should not be breed - I agree and I dare say the KC are looking at enforcing these BMS's ie a puppy from parents above said score will not be registered. YOU must remember hip displaysia has many components to it not just genetics how YOU as the owner rear your puppy, diet exercise etc play a part in the problem. Puppies can be damaged during a difficult delivery, dam laying on them in the nest, a knock during puppy play can all have a bearing on the outcome of a scoring session at 12 mths of age.

Vets already notify the KC of any surgery that alters the conformation/look of a dog including name, address etc of owner/breeder. Any show person will tell you if they've got a puppy with a hernia say, the jury's out on genetics verses rough mother as the cause, they take said pup to the vets for surgery, they AND the vet will/should notify the KC of this change to the dogs natural conformation. 

As for the Peke and his surgery the allegation was investigated by the KC including discussions with the VET who treated the dog and performed the surgery! They didn't just ask the owners/breeders if they changed the way the dog looked, the BVA, DR Jeff Sampson and General committe all looked into this false claim and found it to be exactly that A FALSE ALLEGATION. 


My friend at Avinjas GSD already does all that and more. Its a shame all breeders wont consider all the points on the list


I am an Accreddited breeder scheme member and do way more than is on that code of ethics too and agree all breeders should do that and more. 

I have asked for all pedigree puppies that are registered to ONLY be registered once their pedigree has been DNA proved. I DNA profile all my dogs not just my breeding animals, the KC have them on file should anyone want to check the validity of my pedigree's all they have to do is contact the KC with their concerns, give details of their puppy pay the fee, swabs are sent out they take the sample which is then processed and checked against their parents.

Remember folks its YOU the public who are buying unhealthy animals from unscrupulous breeders and expecting those of us who do things the right way to protect you from said individuals! I'm sorry but I wouldn't even be allowed into their homes to see how or what they are doing when breeding said dogs - how in gods name do you think they keep going and making money YOU KEEP BUYING.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Athravan said:


> Will agree that no healthy puppy will be culled. Puppies which may not conform to the Breed Standard should be placed in suitable homes.
> 
> This is interesting, considering the woman on that bbc program who spoke about her ridgebacks and how she would cull puppies that did not conform. I wonder whether the club will actively police this rule.


To be honest I don't know how they can. If she doesn't tell them how many puppies are born then they cant know whether she's registering the whole litter or not?


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## treeboa (May 4, 2005)

a shame though that breeding to the kc standards creates problems with certain breeds, the english bulldog being a prime example, perhaps its time the kennel club cleaned up its act before condeming everyone else


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*dogs*



Schip said:


> Sorry can't do multiple quotes but here goes.
> 
> now, i would like you all to consider this. somewhere in the past, some dogs were the initial registration, meaning they we're assessed as breed standards and joined the club without their parents being registered (eg when KC was first opened).
> 
> ...


 we are talking dogs NOT humans ....... dont take this so personally . unless you have something to feel guilty about . of course inbreeding causes genetic faults........


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

we all know you dont inbreed your dogs schipwhtever they ares BUT you cannot deny that it goes on . for gods sake , get you head from up the butts of your own dogs and take a good long look at other breeds........


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

denny2 said:


> we are talking dogs NOT humans ....... dont take this so personally . unless you have something to feel guilty about . of course inbreeding causes genetic faults........


*Let me give you a couple of examples:lol2:*

Please understand examples are purely there to demonstrate a point regardless of species, would appear you've missed that bit despite my examples :whistling2:

Hmm butt eh sets the tone nicely

Breeds I've been in dogs since 60's are Shelties, Rough Collies, GSD's, RRB's, Pomeranians and Schipperkes, done obedience, security, agility, hunting yeah with a gun not field trials and of course showing. Believe me I know exactly what goes on with other breeds and like many many other pedigree breeders I challenge said individuals, report them etc at the end of the day its folks like you who perpetuate this behaviour - no demand no breeding they'll move onto the next money making creature - maybe reptiles eh?


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*patronising mare*

. SORREEEEEEE, you should still not compare even as an example human to animal, as humans no matter what genetics they have do not interbreed father to daughter and mother to grandson ( unless you live in sherban), unless they are sick in the head. the deliberate inbreeding of genetically close animals and humans eventually produces GRONKS...... and genetic disabilities...eg labs with hip displacier breeds other labs with hip displacier.....dont patronise dear , you still breed dogs for profit , even if you dont inbreed the dogs you have , bet you would tho if they were more popular ....like say the cocker spaniel , who have a syndrome (through inbreeding ) called rage because they have skulls to narrow for the brain ......rather like the rough collie , who also have stomache problems rather like the german shepherd, who also have hip and eye problems , the list is endless. so dont try preaching about how inbreeding dosnt cause problems , the inbreeding debate obviously dosnt involve you and your dogs so why get involved, unless you are trying to defend yorself ,for something you dont do, or do you because you do feel guilty abut doing it.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

*sorry you missed something too*



Schip said:


> *Let me give you a couple of examples:lol2:*
> 
> Please understand examples are purely there to demonstrate a point regardless of species, would appear you've missed that bit despite my examples :whistling2:
> 
> ...


sorry deary , i have only ever bought two pedegree dogs ever a cocker spaniel 25 years ago and a whippet.who was nuts due to inbreeding . so how can i be helping perpetuate the inbreeding. as for reptiles i dont breed them at all. and certainly wouldnt breed anything for profit. for your information all of the pets i have now and they are many , only two were bought and only one is pedegree (not bought by me), the rest are rescues,so if it was up to people like me the dog breeding buisness would be rather different dont you think......it seems you have allways made money from breeding .....


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

The whole purpose of this thread was to *educate* members about what they should experience when visiting a pedigree dog breeder and asking if they do not then please report said breeder to their local council, the KC and the RSPCA if they so wish. Feel free to attack what you don't know about my breeding it is a moot point as they say attack is the best form of defence. In my replies to this thread I was attempting to show people that a lot of what they want or think would improve things actually already happens but you seem helbent on ignoring for the sake of attacking which is a shame.

I still cannot believe you think there is no correlation between dogs and humans on the genetic comparison front. One only has to look at scientific research done be it medical or DNA based, animals are used including Dogs. You personally claim pedigree dogs are sick and deformed due to their inbreeding by us breeders.

Taking that claim a step further dogs have 400 known genetic diseases which YOU personally say are a result of inbreeding. So please explain how the Human speices has some 6,000 known genetic diseases when they have/are not inbred, several of which are shared with dogs?

I will again give you an example using my own breed of dogs this time Epilepsy seen in all speices not just canine or human. The first link takes you to our breed with a member of the Helsinki research team collecting DNA swabs from all dogs present for the show. Also present at this show was a KC field officers inspecting how the show was run and making sure that all KC/government regulations were adhered too -this is a normal occurrance at any randomly chosen dog show. In addition to that we had Dr Jeff Sampson the KC geneticist who was very interested in the work being undertaken by the team in Helsinki who are also working with some of the Animal Health trust group in the UK, his main base of employment.

Schipperkes UK| dedicated to Schipperkes in the UK, celebrating the Schipperke worldwide

This second link takes you to the Helsinki university where the lady above works as a part of a canine research team working with various breeds.

Koirien geenitutkimus - Canine genetic research in Finland


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Schip said:


> *HOT OFF THE PRESS*
> 
> The Kennel Club
> General Code of Ethics
> ...


 be interested to see how they will enforce them though.I doubt there will be mass expulsion of puppy farmers as they give too much revenue to the KC.
To be honest, the 'code' is a load of tosh and they have no means of discovering breaches nor doing anything about them. I notice it's simply a code of ethics and not strict 'rules'. Another sop to the animal righrs brigade, rushed out in response to the BBC TV programe a month ago which outraged most animal loving members of the public when the lid was lifted on some bleddy cruel practices by breeders.
as for 
_Will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of the breed nor falsely advertise dogs nor mislead any person regarding the health or quality of a dog. _
Does this mean that buyers of bulldogs will tell potential owners " you can't let the dog play about in the sunshine, it won't be able to run about like other dogs, it can't swim, it can't mate or whelp by itself and the mother has had 3 ceasarians, it'll have breathing problems all it's life and you have to clean the wrinkles every day to stop yeast and bacterial infections taking hold, it will be prone to cherry eye, entropian and other problems".
Or the pug breeder "your dog will have not only breathing problems all it's life but will also suffer eye problems like painful ulceration"
I somehow doubt it very much.
And when the kennel club finds out that they haven't told the buyers, will they be expelling pug and bulldog breeders en masse? I shan't hold my breath.


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