# Free Handling Venomous Research!



## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

Free Handling Venomous Snakes​ 
I’ve been working on a little project over the past 5 months involving free handling venomous snakes and the possibility of taming. The reason for this research is to educate I have heard many new comers talk of taming venomous snakes along with free handling this is very risky business to say the least and should not be done by anyone. 

Just for the record I do not condone free handling Venomous Reptiles​ 
I put myself in danger to gather information in an attempt to further understand venomous snakes along with writing an article on free handling venomous with actually hands on research rather than personal opinions.

Ok to get started this project involved 9 Cobras 5 CB babies and 2 WC sub adults and 2 CB sub adults averaging 2 years old. Cobras are my main focus since they are somewhat predictable Vs vipers and such.

The snakes I used:
1.1 Blue Eyed Leucistic Monocled Cobras 
1.1 Red eyed Leucistic Monocled cobras 
0.1 Formosa Cobra 
1.1 Black and White Spitting Cobra 
1.1 Black Pakistan Cobra.

I used a verity of species in my research although in my personal opinion cobras have a similar mentality but there are exceptions to every rule. I also handled different sexes of different Pairs I will break down in a moment. The snakes I chose to handle in each pair were decided at random but were the only snake in the pair that was free handled. I handled the chosen snakes twice a week from February 15th 2008 to July 1st 2008 the exception is the Formosa cobras since I only have a female that I have possessed since April but she has been handled twice weekly.

The snakes I chose to handle:
1.0 CB 07 Red eyed Leucistic Monocled Cobra
0.1 CB 07 Blue Eyed Leucistic Monocled Cobra 
0.1 CB 08 Formosa Cobra
1.0 WC 06 Black and White Spitting Cobra
0.1 CB 06 Black Pakistan Cobra

Now you know the snakes used we will move on to the handling it was done Monday and Friday the reason I chose those days was due to feeding I wanted to see if it made a difference in temperament on an empty or full stomach. I feed on Saturday so Friday they would be hungry and Monday 48 hours give or take after feeding they would be full. I handled the snakes for and average 10-15 minutes although some days less due to temperament. I didn’t document each snakes time being handled but I did monitor days, feeding, and Temperament.

I know everyone is dying to know the results of this research so I will get to it. 

Handling different sex of snake of the same or different species made no difference in temperament of the snakes they reacted the same. 

Handling on a full or empty stomach also made no difference in temperament. 

Now on to my conclusion of the snakes that were handled and the ones that were not. It made no difference what so ever! The snakes that were handled are no calmer than the snakes that were not handled. I brought my little study to an early end of five months originally planning on a year but since the snakes have not calmed after five months the results are clear. 

I do believe all the snakes used in this project can be handled using different techniques but as far as taming or calming not going to happen. Free handling is very dangerous and far too risky after this project I can assure you that you are not going to tame or calm a cobra. 

The results were obvious to me before doing this little project but I wanted to document and put it on paper. The whole project was very risky and stupid to say the least and some people might say well you must have done something your still here. That something is I know my snakes and there reactions very well but they are by no means tame or calm. The handling made no difference.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I have pictures I will add this weekend but I spent so much time deciding whether or not I would post this information due to the controversy it might create. 

I was also going to do a little video but decided aginst it as some people might use it for a freehandling lesson rather than the intended purpose. 

Thanks 
Eric G.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

this is a very controversial thread and I take it you posted it for honest opinions so thats what im going to give, I respect you mate, and you have some very nice snakes in your collection, but to me the whole idea of freehandling venomous snakes is ridiculous, from an experiment point of view its stupid, even if you were working in an enviroment where AV was on hand its still crazy, the risks are far too high for it to even seem like a good idea, from my point of view its irresponsible to venomous keepers.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Brilliant, 
Although you are abit crazy, its nice you done the research,


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree with you 100% Si that is why I have kept this quiet to this point.

I see alot of free handling going on in the hobby and people see someone else doing it and feel it's ok and some even get the idea the snakes can be tamed so here is proof it can't be done.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

At the risk of being slagged off, what the hell were you thinking of?? This is NOT scientific research and has no scientific basis. Your "paper" is not even written as such! No intro, theory, method, results or analysis, just a rambling post saying what most sensible snake keepers, not just venomous, would say - snakes cannot be tamed! You have put yourself at an enormous risk to prove what? How big your balls are?? This is the kind of ridiculous activity that gives the RSPCA as much ammo as they need to campaign against keeping these animals.
Certainly in the UK, I cannot think of ANY venomous keeper who would even consider free handling.
I fully agree that free handling is a true art which needs intimate knowledge of the animal handled, however, is there really a need? This is an accident waiting to happen.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

And I apologise if this next opinion is offensive but I doubt it will be - it is idiots like you who brought about the DWA and create such ammuntion from the "antis" in their campaign against keeping such animals.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

ian14 said:


> At the risk of being slagged off, what the hell were you thinking of?? This is NOT scientific research and has no scientific basis. Your "paper" is not even written as such! No intro, theory, method, results or analysis, just a rambling post saying what most sensible snake keepers, not just venomous, would say - snakes cannot be tamed! You have put yourself at an enormous risk to prove what? How big your balls are?? This is the kind of ridiculous activity that gives the RSPCA as much ammo as they need to campaign against keeping these animals.
> Certainly in the UK, I cannot think of ANY venomous keeper who would even consider free handling.
> I fully agree that free handling is a true art which needs intimate knowledge of the animal handled, however, is there really a need? This is an accident waiting to happen.


 
Your right it is just a bunch of random info thrown together as far as taming I added calming as I know snakes cannot be tamed but it is a word a lot of people use in this hobby venomous or not. 

Also the theroy is simple venomous snakes can not be tamed/clamed even with frequent handling. Also I agree there is no reason to free handle. That was kinda the point along with letting the new comes know even if you do it's not going to change the temperment of the snake. 

I'm not worried about the size of my balls or proving anything just a little info and project I set up and followed through with.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

ian14 said:


> And I apologise if this next opinion is offensive but I doubt it will be


I posted this knowing full well the out come and the response so far are the correct ones. I stated myself it was stupid and irresponsible.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Hey mate, i know you are a good handler... so good luck to you, keep safe mate...

When will the pictures be up


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I'll get around to them tomorrow I'm just lounging right now do not feel like uploading ect. Thanks for the kind words!

I understand the responses and the way people feel about free handling but if they look around far to many people are doing it even Celebs so the best hope we have is to educate new comers and people thinking of free handling. Ignoring the issue and flaming will not solve anything. This little post may not solve anything either but I'm trying rather than sitting around complaining about the issues. Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way or maybe not but the fact remains people free handle and younger people are very easily influenced so some good info may not be such a bad idea.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Like you say.... Ray Hunter Free Handled... and recieved no bites from Free Handling..

David Weathers does it, and noone moans at him...


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I would be curious to know how many free handling videos are on U Tube right now.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

Declan123 said:


> Like you say.... Ray Hunter Free Handled... and recieved no bites from Free Handling..
> 
> David Weathers does it, and noone moans at him...


I seriously hope that by this comment your not implying that the practive of freehandling venomous snakes is an ok thing to do. If you are, then for the sake of all DWA keepers in the UK lets hope you dont get your DWA anytime soon.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

I just dont understand why anyone would choose to handle a venemous snake - bit like russian roulette with an unreliable gun. Anybody that keeps snakes knows they cannot be 100% predictable and anyone with enough experience to have a DWA should know better than most - I am glad the DWA exists - it may not be perfect but at least it stops a free for all. 

I dont understad what the research has proved, I dont understand why it was done, I am just glad that in the end common sense prevailed and it stopped.

Ive just done some research and my findings are that if you free handle venemous snakes, you increase your risk of being bitten and envenomated. From that 15 second research I have come to the conclusion that free handling venemous is not a good idea.


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## GazEmm (Jul 11, 2006)

I dont come into this section much but had to read this thread after reading the title.

Its an awkward one, i can see where you are coming from in wanting to prove Cobras cannot be calmed even with frequent handling...but i have to agree with others that it seems a VERY risky experiment to undertake to basically show what _most_ people should already realise - at least the people who own such animals.

I find it difficult to grasp exactly what you were trying to achieve with this...if you wanted to show they cannot be calmed then it seems very silly indeed. If i doubted the strength of a parachute i certainly wouldnt use it to jump from a plane to prove it one way or another!! Anyway, if this is the case then i suppose in a way you have been successful, but thats not very much to prove given the risks you took. Maybe this could become slightly more credible with a well written report (as mentioned earlier) instead of a poorly written thread on a website forum? However, even then i dont feel it would have much worth.

Also, even if they had clamed down (which you wouldnt really want to advertise), snakes, i feel, are still unpredictable and all you need is to handle a calm/tame DWA snake thats having an 'off day' and you are in some pretty deep :censor:!! With your average (non-DWA) snake you can more or less get away with it...ive been bitten a couple of times and the worst out of the two only drew blood.

I feel you have kind of ended up in the middle mind, you have shown that a Cobra cannot be calmed but at the same time you have shown they can be successfully free handled...i think the side of the experiment which 'newbies' would pay more attention to is the bit about successfully free handling them - and thats not good!!!

Sorry if this is not the kind of responce you wanted, although i do appreciate you have put a lot on the line for this.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

Must say that I do not agree with this 'research' at all, but the findings and conclusions interest me. When you say 'free handling' what do you mean? People have different definitions. I'm assuming you mean a hook was not used, just bare hands.
How do you define 'tame' or 'calm'? As you say they did not tame down at all, but I'm assuming that you did not recieve any bites during this 'experiment'. Was this simply down to your ability to avoid bites or were they not actively trying to bite? Were you free handling in the style of some television snake handlers i.e. essentially tailing the snake and throwing it away when it attempted to bite, or were you handling like a non venomous, allowing it to move freely between your hands?

This can hardly be described as science, and I'm not too sure I understand the reasoning behind it. I'm just glad no humans or snakes were hurt.

David.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

the thing about Ray and David weathers is they have both been bitten Ray about 70 times if my memory serves me correctly, although not while free handling he admited on that radio show that he considers himself and bad keeper, and he also said that although hes freinds with David, he does worry about his handling practices when he sees him.


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## kieran8143 (Mar 10, 2008)

either way! personally i think is stupid! and thats it! but at the end of the day it could have its up sides also! maybe people who think they have "big balls" will read this! (if they can read) and think twice! as im sure if they can read something that has been tested and proved wrong then maybe there "balls" wont be as big as they though they were! 

anyway i would love to see some pictures of your snakes as i love cobras and you have a lovely sellection


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

At a risk of being shunned (lol), I don't think there are many handlers that are 'good' enough to be free handling venomous, there have been so many bites in the UK over the past 2 years, and these weren't through 'playing'. I think the process of gaining a license in the UK just isn't strict enough, we have people that obtained a license after 6 months of keeping snakes! We have 17 year olds preparing their venomous room ready to go for their license as soom as they are 18! I don't want anyone to take offence to those comments, but keeping venomous snakes should be something that is worked up to over MANY years of handling snakes in general, and after much training. 

I personally think DEFRA should have a list of DEFRA registered mentors that have many years of experience and are willing to share their trade which is not something that would be easy to instigate.

:blush: :blush: :blush:


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

No one gets shunned over their opinion!


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

But DEFRA have nothing to do with DWA licencing!! In addition, there is very little knowledge within DEFRA of dealing with exotics. Birds of prey, great! But forget anything else.

I do fully agree, though, that the entire DWA system is flawed.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

DEFRA don't issue the license but they are undertaking a review of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

The pictures I promised. 




















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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It's interesting, I personally would never condone free handling of venemous, but people have to take their own decisions, and perhaps if you were in the UK with the potential repurcusions for the entire hobby if you died from a DWA animal, you would think differently. The risks here are on a much bigger scale, it doesn't take much negative press to affect the whole hobby.

I get dozens of questions asked a week about "is this snake venemous?! is that one?" etc. etc. (usually pointing at corn snakes in my shop), and I dutifully explain that I dont, can't, and wont sell venemous, and talk about the DWA and try to make it sound as complicated as possible so they don't even think about it. In the UK all it would take is one keeper to get a fatal bite that's found out about and publicised and it could affect the business of every reptile shop, the reputation of every reptile keeper out there. Obviously in the USA it is a bit different I suppose.

Someone earlier in the thread said "snakes can't be tamed", which is obviously a silly thing to say, as most of us know when working with snakes most can, if not be tamed, be calmed, or come to adjust to humans and contact, to lose their fear, and thus some aggression. So I think that the premise that this study could potentially show whether this species of snake can lose it's fear and thus be more handleable, is a valid one.

I do think for it to be worth the risk of your life, perhaps some more scientific and specific documentation would have been good, and data published in a journal, magazine, or somewhere, although even just posting it here, and on other forums, perhaps someone will read the replies and think wow, i didn't know free handling was that bad... and it will put them off?

I also think 5 months is too short a time, even a year, I think would be a short period of time to come to a full conclusion, of course, just my opinion  It is interesting though, I would have expected, at least the CB younger snakes, to lose some of their fear and adjust more to becoming handleable.

So, although I agree with the potential premise of such a study, I don't really agree with the method or think it's worth the risk. I do think it's an interesting concept, but so hard to prove and record data to make it scientific.

Kudos to you for sharing the information though, especially knowing what responses you were likely to get!


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I feel 5 months was long enough considering you can take a WC Reticulated python or other naturally aggressive non venomous species and calm them in a few months. These guys are not overly aggressive but the handling made no difference in their temperament what so ever. I figured it wouldn't but tried none the less leaving the possibility open. 

Basically with 5 months in and no change considering the dangers it just wasn't worth it. I got the little Formosa right out of the egg more or less and handled it from day one and it acts just like the rest. So continuing the project seemed pointless.


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

sorry to reiterate but if you felt the need to do this research then you should have collected accurate and detailed information. it hasnt been published, or even layed out in an ordered fashion, merely noted down on a forum. i think this is interesting research, but perhaps could have been conducted diffeantly, ore accurately, and with more factors taken in aco****. most importantly it should have been recorded in detail

Alex


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## 400runner (May 15, 2006)

so what your saying from your research is, that venomous snakes cannot be tamed to any level! are you suggesting that this is because they are in fact venomous? i personally find it hard to believe that a venomous snake knows it is venomous, therefore knows to act in an aggressive manner and refuses to be tamed. 
all snakes are different in temperament, throughout different species and individuals within a species! If you were going to conduct a fair experiment of taming venomous snakes it would have been better to use a range of species! 
I just think any aggressive or defensive behaviour comes from the snake feeling fear or stressed with our actions around them, "tame" snakes arise when they lose this fear and i can't see that just because a snake has 2 fangs and venom glands makes it any less likely to lose that fear of us with gentle and proper free handling! 
what makes it a pointless exercise to ever try to tame a venomous snake, is that every snake is unpredictable and someone could be bitten even by their tamest of corn snakes.
I would never try it myself but i think your brave!


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Azemiops said:


> I seriously hope that by this comment your not implying that the practive of freehandling venomous snakes is an ok thing to do. If you are, then for the sake of all DWA keepers in the UK lets hope you dont get your DWA anytime soon.



Oh my God No, i am not saying the practice of Free Handling should be tryed by anyone...

Im just saying most people are very quick to judge


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I have seen in a youtube video a big eastern diamond back, that is tame(ish) its a venomoid that has been for years and they handle it like a non venomous snake, and although it still rattles defensively it doesnt attempt to strike.

I really do think that the experiment is too dangerous to be worth it, im glad you didnt get tagged mate, because the results could of been devastating, the fact that you came out the other end unscathed is good, but it could so easily have gone wrong.


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

I have a gaboon venomoid that is very mellow but that is quite different than a truely hot snake. I think these snakes could be mellow but it would take alot of time and not worth the risk after 5 months of handing they are no calmer than the ones that were not handled.


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## steveyruss (Feb 19, 2008)

glidergirl said:


> At a risk of being shunned (lol), I don't think there are many handlers that are 'good' enough to be free handling venomous, there have been so many bites in the UK over the past 2 years, and these weren't through 'playing'. I think the process of gaining a license in the UK just isn't strict enough, we have people that obtained a license after 6 months of keeping snakes! We have 17 year olds preparing their venomous room ready to go for their license as soom as they are 18! I don't want anyone to take offence to those comments, but keeping venomous snakes should be something that is worked up to over MANY years of handling snakes in general, and after much training.
> 
> I personally think DEFRA should have a list of DEFRA registered mentors that have many years of experience and are willing to share their trade which is not something that would be easy to instigate.
> 
> :blush: :blush: :blush:


 
The purpose of the DWA is to protect the public NOT the keeper. So one can fight and die for their own country but they cannot apply for a DWA license at the age of adulthood? The funny thing is I don't see the government trying to stop all of bad drivers out there:bash: They cannot deny you the right of owning one of these animals if you meet certain safety criterias and housing for the animal although many councils have taken your attitude to limit this freedom by swamping people out with absurdly high licensing costs. Who is to say who isn't a good keeper and who is, this idea implemented would just be pure elitism, besides there is no measuring stick because the authorities just don't have the experience in dealing with this sort of thing.

And to the guy doing this 'research' good luck and be safe, it sounds interest but at the same it all sounds pretty stupid.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

steveyruss said:


> The purpose of the DWA is to protect the public NOT the keeper. So one can fight and die for their own country but they cannot apply for a DWA license at the age of adulthood? The funny thing is I don't see the government trying to stop all of bad drivers out there:bash: They cannot deny you the right of owning one of these animals if you meet certain safety criterias and housing for the animal although many councils have taken your attitude to limit this freedom by swamping people out with absurdly high licensing costs. Who is to say who isn't a good keeper and who is, this idea implemented would just be pure elitism, besides there is no measuring stick because the authorities just don't have the experience in dealing with this sort of thing.
> 
> And to the guy doing this 'research' good luck and be safe, it sounds interest but at the same it all sounds pretty stupid.


 
The thing is though, DWA keeping isnt like driving cars, theres alot of people that would like to see it banned anyway, and the more people that get bit and publicised it gets the worse it looks and more likely it is to get banned.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

SiUK said:


> The thing is though, DWA keeping isnt like driving cars, theres alot of people that would like to see it banned anyway, and the more people that get bit and publicised it gets the worse it looks and more likely it is to get banned.


Very very true... the more bites that take place and more people that have a reason to complain, therefore making it more likely to get peoples passion banned


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> We have 17 year olds preparing their venomous room ready to go for their license as soom as they are 18!


I never said i was applying for my liesence when im 18...

I said, im making it into a reptile room, therefore may aswell make it into a Venomous room, instead of "Revamping" it for when im ready....
Im trying to get as much experience as possible, (which is a very hard thing to do) 

Id prefer to save my money first to travel a few different countries than go and spend my money on some Venomous... therfore not being able to travel due to noone being able to care for my animals....!


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

steveyruss said:


> The purpose of the DWA is to protect the public NOT the keeper. So one can fight and die for their own country but they cannot apply for a DWA license at the age of adulthood? The funny thing is I don't see the government trying to stop all of bad drivers out there:bash: They cannot deny you the right of owning one of these animals if you meet certain safety criterias and housing for the animal although many councils have taken your attitude to limit this freedom by swamping people out with absurdly high licensing costs. Who is to say who isn't a good keeper and who is, this idea implemented would just be pure elitism, besides there is no measuring stick because the authorities just don't have the experience in dealing with this sort of thing.
> 
> And to the guy doing this 'research' good luck and be safe, it sounds interest but at the same it all sounds pretty stupid.


DEFRA are actuallly trying to make it easier to get a license, they fully acknowledge that people are keeping venomous snakes illegally and so want to make it easier for people to obtain a license!


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## Myo (Feb 14, 2008)

Eric said:


> I feel 5 months was long enough considering you can take a WC Reticulated python or other naturally aggressive non venomous species and calm them in a few months. *These guys are not overly aggressive* but the handling made no difference in their temperament what so ever. I figured it wouldn't but tried none the less leaving the possibility open.
> 
> Basically with 5 months in and no change considering the dangers it just wasn't worth it. I got the little Formosa right out of the egg more or less and handled it from day one and it acts just like the rest. So continuing the project seemed pointless.


Good on you. this is certainly interesting read, however, the whole premise of this experiment is flawed. if the snakes can be handled without biting (you proved this the first free handling session), then they are as tame as they are going to get anyway, so no amount of handling will make them calmer as they are already calm. to do this experiment properly you would need some sort of bite proof clothing and a really aggressive snake that strikes at anything. Then over time you might see that the snake becomes more reluctant to bite.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Absolute foolishness - TRR Forums

Youve got haters Eric


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

Do the freehandling blindfolded and naked.. I would love to see that on "Youtube"..:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

southwest vipers said:


> Do the freehandling blindfolded and naked.. I would love to see that on "Youtube"..:lol2::lol2::lol2:


 so you want to see him naked eh? you southerners are an odd lot:lol2:


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

jaysnakeman said:


> so you want to see him naked eh? you southerners are an odd lot:lol2:


HAHA, nice one :lol2:


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

glidergirl - i dont think age is a factor. i would consider dwa but it must be said i have been very fortunate to have the experiences i have had and continue to have.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm not overly sure on the age thing, but I think at about 25 you understand responsibility more and hopefully you're past the stage of trying to impress your mates! I think it's down to the individual person, but each applicant can't be interviewed and 'sussed' out, I'm NOT saying all of the younger hopefuls are the same but I just think 25 is more of a responsible age. But that's a personal thing.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

I really dont see any useful or informative data for this 'research'. You've completely put yourself in total unnecessary danger for seemingly no good reason at all.

I dont even see a point to it! What were you going to prove even if you thought they had 'mellowed' out? It doesn't make the snake any less venomous, nor does it make them any more predictable, Ive been bitten by 2 of my 'normal' collection without any warning what so ever, not one sign.

Madness and stupidity.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Very interesting...You nutter...LOL. I've wondered about how calm a venomous would become over time..... Now I know....... Do you think the more CB that goes on, that eventually somewhere down the line that they could become calmer...... Though it still doesn't make it less venomous, so you'd still be in trouble if it decided to nip you.....
I got Bredli pythons... So mellow, and easy to handle......My male bit me a week ago, I wasn't expecting that...


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> I'm not overly sure on the age thing, but I think at about 25 you understand responsibility more and hopefully you're past the stage of trying to impress your mates! I think it's down to the individual person, but each applicant can't be interviewed and 'sussed' out, I'm NOT saying all of the younger hopefuls are the same but I just think 25 is more of a responsible age. But that's a personal thing.


depends who you are as you mention. for me mates and snakes are a seperate entity and always will be. they have come and seen the boa's, and handled some, but they dont even know i have rear fanged stuff. its not all the same for everyone.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

my freinds know I have snakes but only one knows I have venomous and he doesnt know what venomous.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

I think you should search for a guy call cobra man. He some how has immunized him self against cobra venom, so he say's. but then check out the pictures of the of him after being complacent with vipers and rattlers. 

And even though he free handles his cobras, he gets bitten. 
Science done, lessons learned
Honestly its not worth it. for your own health or for the stress you could put the ones who care for you through.

Even though I really went to get some venomous snakes. I would do everything I can not to get them out. or have any contact. 
I'm even thinking of every way around changing their water bowls so I don't have to open the viv's up.
I just recon its better safe than very very sorry.

Keep Safe!!!!!: victory:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

ScottGB said:


> I think you should search for a guy call cobra man. He some how has immunized him self against cobra venom, so he say's. but then check out the pictures of the of him after being complacent with vipers and rattlers.
> 
> And even though he free handles his cobras, he gets bitten.
> Science done, lessons learned
> ...


Ray claims to never of been bitten whilst freehandling, and the pics from his cobra bites are still very unpleasent. So hes not immune, he has built up a tolerance and a certain level of resistance but not immunity.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

ScottGB said:


> I think you should search for a guy call cobra man. He some how has immunized him self against cobra venom, so he say's. but then check out the pictures of the of him after being complacent with vipers and rattlers.
> 
> And even though he free handles his cobras, he gets bitten.
> Science done, lessons learned
> ...


Thats never going to work out..... You need to build the confidence to be able to do what you want, when you want....Otherwise the animal could suffer, they need checking over the same as any other snake......


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

Oh I know what you mean but its just coming up for ways to change the water as safely and stuff like that. 
I'm just making a point to not FREE handling.


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

It will probably take a few generations for these guys to 'tame'.

Just as it did with the now 'tame' non-venomous.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

how many generations CB a snake is has nothing to do with it at all (IMO of course)

I think you've put yourself at a great deal of risk, for a great deal of time to 'proove' something that didn't really need it.

After five months of very, very dangerous stuff (which is entirely your choice, i'm not getting inot the slanging match side of this at all) you've shown that snakes are unpredictable and fully capable of either becoming very tolerant or remaining untolerant.

Anyone who's kept snake for longer than 6 months should be able to say the same. I'm not sure you've actually proved anything, other than you can handle your collection for five months wihtout getting bitten. Perhaps slightly counter productive? certainly doesn't send out the message you think it does IMO.

People aren't going to read that and think "wow, cobras don't tame, I'd better not bother" but rather "see, he didn't get bitten either...just like my mate who does it..."

If anyhting i'd say this encourages free handling rather than deterring it, no points have really been proved, you've shown that a wild animal*, after 5 months of handling, is still a wild animal.


* NOTE - please remember that a corn snake thats 50 generations captive bred is still a "wild animal" it's not been domesticated at all, it still comes out of the egg with the exact smae instincts etc that a wild counterpart would.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

glidergirl said:


> I'm not overly sure on the age thing, but I think at about 25 you understand responsibility more and hopefully you're past the stage of trying to impress your mates! I think it's down to the individual person, but each applicant can't be interviewed and 'sussed' out, I'm NOT saying all of the younger hopefuls are the same but I just think 25 is more of a responsible age. But that's a personal thing.


Here is a question for you,

I have been keeping snakes for a while and in this time i have kept a small variety of venomous snakes and worked with sevral more species. 

I have so far only had "near misses" when behaving perfectly responsibly with the animals, and my reactions have have in honesty saved me from 2 bites. 

I never handle snakes if intoxicated on any substance, i will not have non reptile keepers around me when i handle hots, because i know i am likely to show off and sensationalise, and DWA keepers will obviously not be impressed by foolishness. 

That said, would you sell me a venomous species, given that i am only 18? 

Or would i have to wait another 7 years ?


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Weren't you the guy who posted pics of you holding a Deathstalker scorp on the palm of your hand?


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Andy said:


> Weren't you the guy who posted pics of you holding a Deathstalker scorp on the palm of your hand?


You actually being serious?


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

I posted pics of fat tails, but yes i have handled deathstalkers. And other things for that matter...

But i did that in a controled enviroment with another handler on hand, in case anything happened, and was stone cold sober. 

My point is my free handling of various species has never caused me any harm or any near misses, yet my feeding, water changes etc etc have lead to near misses in the past.


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

darkdan99 said:


> I posted pics of fat tails, but yes i have handled deathstalkers. And other things for that matter...
> 
> But i did that in a controled enviroment with another handler on hand, in case anything happened, and was stone cold sober.
> 
> My point is my free handling of various species has never caused me any harm or any near misses, yet my feeding, water changes etc etc have lead to near misses in the past.


And what if you had of been stung? im sure theres no av, its called deathstalker for a reason:|


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

There IS antivenin avalable, but the chances of me being stung were slim. A scorpion is not a snake and when on the hand it behaves as if it is on a rock or log. It doesnt understand that i am human and stingable. 

If i was to poke it with the other hand then of course there is a risk of stinging but this is somthing i wouldn't do. 

Basically if i got stung i would have delt with it...But as predicted etc etc i didn't. 

If you know the animals well enough and are sure of your abilities, then freehandling isnt that risky. 

The biggest names in our hobby have all free handled at one point or another and i would stake money on even the most "anal" keepers having done it at one time or another. 

Ray Hunter, one of the leaders in the world, Bill Haast, Probably the oldest hot keeper in the world (97 and still working in the miami serpentarium as far as i know). Austen Stevens, with cobras on his shoulders, one of whom injected a full load into his shirt. 

Steve Irwin handled wild scorpions, free handled baby rattlers. When he said "if it bites me its my own fault" people listen and don't question since he was, who he was. So how come every handler who hasn't got a world wide following gets the spanish inquisition ?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> I posted pics of fat tails, but yes i have handled deathstalkers. And other things for that matter...
> 
> But i did that in a controled enviroment with another handler on hand, in case anything happened, and was stone cold sober.
> 
> .


 
hmm, i don't see what relevance the environment has to do with much (not a dig at you) but animals attack when they feel threatened. If you wanted to handle a venomous *whatever* in any environment then as long as it doesn't feel under threat then you'd be pretty much safe.

don't animals attack for 2 reasons? food and fear?


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

That was my point. It was in a sealed room (prevent escapes) away from other animals, that may threaten it, (even through glass) and with myself and a trusted friend.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

cheetah says:








*don't do it!:lol2:*


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

HABU said:


> cheetah says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMFAO

Habu you always make me chuckle


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Declan123 said:


> LMFAO
> 
> Habu you always make me chuckle


 haha! no one gets me here.... i just get strange looks.... but i have to say... free handling hots takes practise.... just as russian roulette does...:whistling2:


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

HABU said:


> haha! no one gets me here.... i just get strange looks.... but i have to say... free handling hots takes practise.... just as russian roulette does...:whistling2:


You aint wrong there


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

haha thats not a cheetah is a chimp!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> haha thats not a cheetah is a chimp!


 you're too young to remember the old tarzan t.v. series....:whistling2::lol2:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

fair enough lol 

why is it that everyone keeps telling me i need to be older lol


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> fair enough lol
> 
> why is it that everyone keeps telling me i need to be older lol


 ah, enjoy your youth..it is fleeting....: victory:


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

darkdan99 said:


> I posted pics of fat tails, but yes i have handled deathstalkers. And other things for that matter...
> 
> But i did that in a controled enviroment with another handler on hand, in case anything happened, and was stone cold sober.
> 
> My point is my free handling of various species has never caused me any harm or any near misses, yet my feeding, water changes etc etc have lead to near misses in the past.


I asked that question with reference to you asking if Glidergirl would sell you DWA animals. After seeing you handle scorpions that could quite easily kill you then she probably wouldn't.: victory:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

im sure the lady has a voice and mind of her own  and free handling wasnt my point i was talking about age...


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> im sure the lady has a voice and mind of her own  and free handling wasnt my point i was talking about age...


I take it you have a DWAL?


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## White_raven666 (Mar 20, 2007)

thi is dd99 on a mates computer

I don't have a dwal but i keep my hots at a friend facility who is licensed.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

White_raven666 said:


> thi is dd99 on a mates computer
> 
> I don't have a dwal but i keep my hots at a friend facility who is licensed.



ahh right, thanks for the info


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> Here is a question for you,
> 
> I have been keeping snakes for a while and in this time i have kept a small variety of venomous snakes and worked with sevral more species.
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed this, I tend not to check back to often anymore I get too frustrated by the amount of crap on here! 

It's only my opinion that the age limit should be changed, it won't suit everyone it has to be said, maybe a better way to do it would be proper training mentors in place (that would be defra registered) that can assess a persons abilities. 

We would only sell to a person with a DWAL, and as I see you don't have one then no, we wouldn't sell to you. Sorry, it's nothing personal.


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## White_raven666 (Mar 20, 2007)

dd99 again...

obviously i would not expect to buy without a licene, and whenever i do buy i come with the friend and his license. my point was in principle only due to age, and wasnt intended to open a huge can of worms lol


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

No can of worms opened.

Also, as another thought, I wouldn't have thought that there are many mentors out there who would be willing to take on a 'pupil' that is under the age of 18. 

Having an under 18 shadow you and do your 'dirty work' is one thing, but actually allowing an under 18 to handle anything venomous is another. The risks are just too great, imagine if you did get bitten! Fair enough if your dad was the keeper, if he's willing to teach then that's up to him. 

Just on a side note, Dec did some training with us but handled NOTHING venomous.


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