# I spent three nights in hospital from 13th July..... (important warning!)



## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

.....and i've just found out it was down to a severe salmonella infection, I've just had a phone call from the local health authority and through a series of questions it was determind that my infection most likely came from the reptiles.

so yes it is unlikely to happen, but it DOES happen, and it made me VERY ill. I had to have IV antibiotics and 4 litres of IV fluids, lots of scans and tests and 3 nights in an emergecy surgical unit.

I know everyone tends to be very careful about their hygiene between reptiles, but I don't know about the standard of care to protect ourselves from our pets, not just hand washing, but how many people kiss their pets?! I know it's something i'm not going to take lightly again, with the saying "you're more likely to get it from chicken" well i've never been ill from chicken, but i've been ill from my reptiles.

I hope no-one else falls into the bad habbit of thinking it wont happen to you, or that it's more likely to happen from something else, with proper care, it shouldn't happen to anyone, from anything.

please, please take more care than I did.

Kay.


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## GeeUK (May 2, 2011)

So you kissed your reptiles on a regular basis?


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

GeeUK said:


> So you kissed your reptiles on a regular basis?


no, it's a point i was making, to say that bad hand hygiene isn't everything we need to protect ourselves from.


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## Jasia (Feb 15, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear you have been so unwell and hope you are feeling much better.

This is just the reason I am so strick with my kids about hygine around our snakes, I hope you don't mind but I am going to make them read this so they stop moaning when I say anything.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. xxx


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Jasia said:


> I am so sorry to hear you have been so unwell and hope you are feeling much better.
> 
> This is just the reason I am so strick with my kids about hygine around our snakes, I hope you don't mind but I am going to make them read this so they stop moaning when I say anything.
> 
> Best wishes for a speedy recovery. xxx



thank you, i'm perfect again now, but it knocked me about for a good week or so.

yes please do get them to read this.


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## Fried_frog (Jun 2, 2009)

Hope you feel better Katy!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

people need to wash their hands more... not just with reptiles either...


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

HABU said:


> people need to wash their hands more... not just with reptiles either...



and not jsut hand washing either, being mindful of other ways of introducing infectiong to the body.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

I did read once that most reptile related infections were from secondary contact. The reptile keeper gets a kind of immunity due to being exposed to it for so long then passes it on to somebody else by touching them. That would explain why so many people who keep reptiles play down the risk and say they have never had it, maybe they have but have been carriers and passed it on to others. But keeping hands clean is important but so is keeping vivs clean and anything the reptile comes into contact with, Its one thing to wash your hands each time you touch your reptile but it makes it kind of pointless if the viv has not been cleaned regularly and is a breeding ground for bacteria.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

hi there

have you now had a fecal test done to determine the strain of salmonella??
to make you so ill it must be at least a,b,or c i would of said


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

woodrott said:


> hi there
> 
> have you now had a fecal test done to determine the strain of salmonella??
> to make you so ill it must be at least a,b,or c i would of said


I was thiking the same things, I would be interested to know the exact strain and if it was defently the reps. 

Deffently interested in more info. 

jay


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## cog (Dec 30, 2008)

HABU said:


> people need to wash their hands more... not just with reptiles either...


I agree. I keep drumming it into my daughter that if she touches any animal to wash her hands, dogs, cats, reptiles etc. Its just common sense to keep good hygiene with any animals and in general.


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## carter2011 (Feb 4, 2011)

harsh, Ill pay more attention , hope you 100% better 

makes you think


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> hi there
> 
> have you now had a fecal test done to determine the strain of salmonella??
> to make you so ill it must be at least a,b,or c i would of said



yes, they took a sample but I didn't even know there was an identified infection until the enviro health guys told me, great communication!! during my stay in hospital, they told me almost nothing, not what they were looking for, what the med were nothing, if i didn't have some knowledge, i wouldn't know ANYTHING about what had gone on.

I was supposed to receive the test results and haven't.

because of the placement area i'm about to go onto, i've got to have a clear sample result taken, which is a huge pain in the back side, as said before being in close contact with the reptiles regularly, i may well be a carrier, not sure what this is going to mean, whether they're going to tall me i have to rehome all the reps, or change my career, i don't know.


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## GeeUK (May 2, 2011)

kirsten said:


> no, it's a point i was making, to say that bad hand hygiene isn't everything we need to protect ourselves from.


Oh okay.

Glad you are better now.

Any idea how you managed to get infected? Does it not need to enter the body somehow, like through the mouth, eyes etc?

If you came into contact with salmonella, how long can it stay alive on your skin before dying?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> I was thiking the same things, I would be interested to know the exact strain and if it was defently the reps.
> 
> Deffently interested in more info.
> 
> jay


 
the fecal tests stereotype [grade] from a to z with a 1 to 4 

so you could have a f 3 or a y 4 and so on

the a,b,c,1 to 4 will show symptoms in humans
and you would have an ill dragon

i have salmonella in all my dragons at a standard of n1 and y3
this is part of standard gut flora and is fine

but to add you can totally clear salmonella with no adverse effects to the dragon as ive done but it will return


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> the fecal tests stereotype [grade] from a to z with a 1 to 4
> 
> so you could have a f 3 or a y 4 and so on
> 
> ...



you seem to be a lot more informed than me, i do'nt have any unwell animals in that sense, I don't know anything unfortunately, because no-one is telling me anything. i haven't seen any results, been told anything informed, it's all a bit of a joke really. and very frustrating, it may now impact my next work placement, which means having to make it up at the end of the year!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

woodrott said:


> the fecal tests stereotype [grade] from a to z with a 1 to 4
> 
> so you could have a f 3 or a y 4 and so on
> 
> ...


Exactly, my understand was that if the starnd was high enougth to show those sort of effects in humans so a, b or c, then the animals will also be suffering. 

I have heard of environmental officers blaiming reps on many times without any real evidence. 

Jay


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> Exactly, my understand was that if the starnd was high enougth to show those sort of effects in humans so a, b or c, then the animals will also be suffering.
> 
> I have heard of environmental officers blaiming reps on many times without any real evidence.
> 
> Jay



if thats the case, then it may not have been from the animals, as non of mine are ill.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

kirsten said:


> if thats the case, then it may not have been from the animals, as non of mine are ill.


I may be wrong, but you would need to know the exact strain and IMO test the animals as well. 

This is what i would do anyway

Jay


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> I may be wrong, but you would need to know the exact strain and IMO test the animals as well.
> 
> This is what i would do anyway
> 
> Jay


 
yes there's only one way to tell

a £38 fecal test at pals would be my next move to confirm


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Worth a read.

too much to copy and paste so have linked to the page


http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Lizard,%20Salmonella.htm


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> yes there's only one way to tell
> 
> a £38 fecal test at pals would be my next move to confirm



i'll find out the strain they found in me first, as £532 is a lot to spend if my test result comes back with a different strain that says it's not linked to the reptiels.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

kirsten said:


> i'll find out the strain they found in me first, as £532 is a lot to spend if my test result comes back with a different strain that says it's not linked to the reptiels.


 
why £532?????????????????


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> why £532?????????????????


£38 x my 14 reptiles.


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## katie harris (Oct 20, 2010)

i kiss my reptiles all the time :/ might think twice now!


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

rum&coke said:


> Worth a read.
> 
> too much to copy and paste so have linked to the page
> 
> ...



from reading that, i understand that any of the strains can make a human ill in the right amounts, and that the animals themselves can otherwise be unaffected, and irradicating the carrier infection, only leads to resistence which will make things worse, which comes back to the basis of this thread, good hygiene, as even a healthy animal can make you ill.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

kirsten said:


> £38 x my 14 reptiles.


 


no no no no

you do a colony pool

you take 3 poo,s from each reptile and put them all together

the odds are if one has it then most or all will have it to some degree

call Mary at pals she will tell you the cheapest way to do it


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> no no no no
> 
> you do a colony pool
> 
> ...



would a 'colony' not need to be the same species? if so, thats still £228. whats the point in doing that? as it'll give me a possitive or negative, but i won't know which animal has it. and if non of the animals are ill whats the requirement in the first place? sorry if i'm missing something. but surely fecal testing is to find an indevidual who made me ill. or there's no point doing it at all, so i may as well consider them all to have it anyway, and just increase hygiene which i'd do anyway after having been so unwell.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

kirsten said:


> from reading that, i understand that any of the strains can make a human ill in the right amounts, and that the animals themselves can otherwise be unaffected, and irradicating the carrier infection, only leads to resistence which will make things worse, which comes back to the basis of this thread, good hygiene, as even a healthy animal can make you ill.


yes it's quite scary really, and it is a worry that it gets played down so much by reptile keepers, We dont need more bad publicity and adversity than we already have so even if the percentages and risks are small we owe it too our selfs to be more careful and sensible about the issue. Every time people parrot out the old line about being more likely to get it from a chicken dinner than a reptile they are playing a numbers game really. I think this last paragraph in the report sums it up really.

Many people in herpetology ask why they should be concerned about this issue when the vast majority of Salmonellosis infections come from sources other than reptiles. The reason is simple. While this statement may be true, reptiles still constitute a proven and significant source of infection; even if they represent only a small percentage of all the cases they still represent a visible target for public health and lawmakers to go after. Hundreds of thousands of infants and toddlers became ill with turtle-associated salmonellosis in the 1960's and 1970's. While these cases may have been only a small percentage of the millions of total Salmonellosis cases they still were a significant number. The fact that infants and toddlers were involved made their numbers all the more visible. Reptile-associated salmonellosis is an issue that concerns the herpetological community and can be dealt with successfully.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

kirsten said:


> would a 'colony' not need to be the same species? if so, thats still £228. whats the point in doing that? as it'll give me a possitive or negative, but i won't know which animal has it. and if non of the animals are ill whats the requirement in the first place? sorry if i'm missing something. but surely fecal testing is to find an indevidual who made me ill. or there's no point doing it at all, so i may as well consider them all to have it anyway, and just increase hygiene which i'd do anyway after having been so unwell.


if one animal has it, regardless of species, it is likly the entire collection has it unless you sterilise equiptment between each specific group of animals/viv.

You are trying to identfy where the infections came from. if you group test the animals (one test) you will be able to identfy if the infection came from the animals. if it comes back negative you know it was another source, if positive you know its the reps and treatment may be needed. As it is likly all animals have the same infection it may be a case of treating all animals. if you want to be specific at this stage you could then spend the moeny and test all of them. There no point testing all the individuals animals at the start as it would be a waste of moeny especially if the resutls are all negative. 

jay


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## scoob78 (Jun 25, 2010)

Hi im glad you are feeling better.
i had my beardies poo tested at the begginging of january hers came back that she had selmonella this is what was on the report: Serotype 44:Z4,Z23 Subgenus IV Serogroup V
my vet didnt seem to concerned he said has she has been on antibiotics anyway it should sort the salmonella out. i sent a new sample to pals yesterday, so will see if she still has it when the results come back.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

kirsten said:


> would a 'colony' not need to be the same species? if so, thats still £228. whats the point in doing that? as it'll give me a possitive or negative, but i won't know which animal has it. and if non of the animals are ill whats the requirement in the first place? sorry if i'm missing something. but surely fecal testing is to find an indevidual who made me ill. or there's no point doing it at all, so i may as well consider them all to have it anyway, and just increase hygiene which i'd do anyway after having been so unwell.


 
it was a suggestion just to find out if the reptiles were the culprits

if they were then you would need to evaluate the situation

as Ive said give Mary a call on the subject at pals

she can clarify any questions you mite have and put you mind at rest


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

kirsten said:


> .....and i've just found out it was down to a severe salmonella infection, I've just had a phone call from the local health authority and through a series of questions it was determind that my infection *most likely* came from the reptiles.


'Most likely' :roll: :whistling2:


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

ok, now slightly more well informed, i've spoken to the mircro biology team, they've told me that a specific strain hasn't been indentified, they send to an external lab for that, so it hasn't been done.

the enviro health team want a clear sample, but they're the only team that does, the hospital are happy for me to be in work being 48 hours clear symptom free, which is good news.

so..... we'll never know exactly where it came from, but the fact i've not eaten out, eaten anything i don't normall eat and the rest, that it is VERY likely to have come from the reptiles.


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Any idea if it can lay dormant before making you ill? Only asking as if you handled animals at doncaster or other people animals it may not have been your own animals. Hope all works out for you to do your placement xo


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

James_and_Hana said:


> Any idea if it can lay dormant before making you ill? Only asking as if you handled animals at doncaster or other people animals it may not have been your own animals. Hope all works out for you to do your placement xo


thats an interestind idea, not sure. need to look into it.

edit, incubation is several hours to 2 days.


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## Veyla (May 24, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear how poorly you have been. I try and be on top of hygiene but we all make mistakes. Glad to hear you on the mend though.


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Ah right was just a thought as you've obviously had no problems before. Any new additions to your collection around then?


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

James_and_Hana said:


> Ah right was just a thought as you've obviously had no problems before. Any new additions to your collection around then?


no, but it doesn't mean i'd pick something up right away, i could have gotten it from a reptile i've had for years.


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

I know, but from glancing at replys and seeing the levels that affect humans would most likely be affecting the animal if all yours seem fine then the possibility of it being an outside source should also be bared in mind.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

kirsten said:


> so..... we'll never know exactly where it came from, but the fact i've not eaten out, eaten anything i don't normall eat and the rest, that it is VERY likely to have come from the reptiles.


U get in frozen mice or tats? 

there was a thread like this a few years back they got rid of there snakes only to find out it was a rodent strain and likely came from infected F/T mice


i'll dig it up


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

spend_day said:


> U get in frozen mice or tats?
> 
> there was a thread like this a few years back they got rid of there snakes only to find out it was a rodent strain and likely came from infected F/T mice
> 
> ...


cheers, yeah i do have frozen rodents for the snakes. rats and mice.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

wow my memories bad they didn't get rid of there snakes (I might be confusing 2 stories)

here's the thread I was thinking about

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/general-herp-chat/275974-salmonella-saga.html

could be the source or you know something u ate


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## xxx-dztini-xxx (May 12, 2009)

glad to hear you have recovered
it makes me think as allthough all mine haven been feacal tested, i dont wash my hands after handling :bash: just to be on the safe side i will now keep some alcho gel near the vivs

to be honest not that you have had samonella i would want all my reptiles checked because it can make them ill too, surely if you have had it they too could go down with it, better to get it sorted now while your reps appear healthy to eliminate anything before they too get really ill????


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

spend_day said:


> wow my memories bad they didn't get rid of there snakes (I might be confusing 2 stories)
> 
> here's the thread I was thinking about
> 
> ...



you're right, he did rehome the snakes.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

cog said:


> I agree. I keep drumming it into my daughter that if she touches any animal to wash her hands, dogs, cats, reptiles etc. Its just common sense to keep good hygiene with any animals and in general.


 
yeah, i see people all the time touching things and just wiping their hands up...

i get sick all the time going to walmart if i forget to use the hand sanitizer that they provide at the door...

people with all kinds of bugs going into a big store and touching everything... never washing or santizing their hands...

it's just common courtesy to try not to spread your illness to others...

these hill-jacks don't care... they're mostly mutants anyway... incubation machines spreading their bacteria and viruses everywhere...


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

HABU said:


> yeah, i see people all the time touching things and just wiping their hands up...
> 
> i get sick all the time going to walmart if i forget to use the hand sanitizer that they provide at the door...
> 
> ...


Nothing more to say to this than :lol2:, oh and how disgusting, we don't have hand sanitisers in shops in the UK, at least I have never seen any!


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Eggs are more likely to give it to you than chicken, always look for the red lion mark on your eggs and don't buy from the local farm. That's what the marks there for. I've noticed that Tesco packed chicken breast don't have much life! I've put it in the fridge and gone to open it the next day ( before the use by date) to find it smells funny and sometime slimy! I honestly think the meats bought in cheap and maybe not even chilled properly. This has happened to me loads!! I keep meaning to take it back and complain. Be carefore what you eat from the super markets and smell and check it first. Of course reptiles do carry it. Always wash your hands after handling them. Try not to have vivs in the dinning and front room, or other rooms where you eat.


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

I've had salmonella before but it was nothing like this! My mate had salmonella alongside food poisoning and couldnt shift it for 8 months, she was a mess!


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

animalstorey said:


> Eggs are more likely to give it to you than chicken, always look for the red lion mark on your eggs and don't buy from the local farm. That's what the marks there for. I've noticed that Tesco packed chicken breast don't have much life! I've put it in the fridge and gone to open it the next day ( before the use by date) to find it smells funny and sometime slimy! I honestly think the meats bought in cheap and maybe not even chilled properly. This has happened to me loads!! I keep meaning to take it back and complain. Be carefore what you eat from the super markets and smell and check it first. Of course reptiles do carry it. Always wash your hands after handling them. Try not to have vivs in the dinning and front room, or other rooms where you eat.



i don't eat eggs, don't have a lot of milk, i buy frozen fish, buy fresh chicken breasts and freeze them for use, thoroughly defrosted and cooked well. i have all my vivs in my room, as i only rent a single room, so no reptiles are kept anywhere near food, i clean their bowls in the bathroom, emptying them into the toilet, cleaning them and refilling them in the bath. i think for me it has litterally been a case of, it can still happen, no matter what. or i've not been quite as carefull about hygiene as i could be, or forgot, just the once, or scratched an itch on my face while feeding the animals, or defrosting mice, it's easily done, which is my point.

but yes, sounds advice.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

As said could be anything, reptiles often get blamed, a while back my trade supplier was sending out leaflets attached to every frozen order stating the mice could be carriers and to be aware.

It often surprises me how many people defrost rodents in fridges and on kitchen tables etc, after all they carry the same risk as a raw peice of chicken or meat.

My OH's, Mum nearly died of severe food poisioning last year and spent 2 weeks in hospital and the strain of bacteria came from a frozen chicken meal, something she'd been eating for years.


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## tracy pearman (Mar 14, 2011)

Well funnily enough I've had to go to the docs recently too. All the skin is peeling off my hands, it turns out that I've been over zealous with the anti bac Gel and I now have Pompholyx (servere eczema). So its back to good old soap and water.

So my warning is this: Don't over do it with anti bac either- be it cleaner/gel/or soap.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Tescos pre packed chicken breasts are rubbish. I've stopped buying the
.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

kirsten said:


> .....and i've just found out it was down to a severe salmonella infection, I've just had a phone call from the local health authority and through a series of questions it was determind that my infection most likely came from the reptiles.
> 
> so yes it is unlikely to happen, but it DOES happen, and it made me VERY ill. I had to have IV antibiotics and 4 litres of IV fluids, lots of scans and tests and 3 nights in an emergecy surgical unit.
> 
> ...


I am very sorry to hear about your most unfortunate experience but I am pleased to here that you are not on the mend. I would be very interested to know if the reptiles were tested for the strain of salmonella that you were infected with?


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## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

tracy pearman said:


> Well funnily enough I've had to go to the docs recently too. All the skin is peeling off my hands, it turns out that I've been over zealous with the anti bac Gel and I now have Pompholyx (servere eczema). So its back to good old soap and water.
> 
> So my warning is this: Don't over do it with anti bac either- be it cleaner/gel/or soap.


Sorry to hijack this thread, and may well make a new one on snake forum, as I see anti bac gel used so much on there. Two issues for me... 

Anti bac is almost worthless unless it is in contact with skin for at least 10 seconds, so those of us that use a quick dollop and fast wipe are not really doing anything but thinking we are cleaning our hands

Anti bac is not nearly as good for your skin as good old soap and water, as stated above.

By all means, use anti bac where you cannot get to wash your hands properly, however, like everything else... over use/over reliance is not a good thing....... so..... like the saying goes in an old Hill Street Blues programme.... BE CAREFUL OUT THERE PEOPLE....:lol2:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

animalstorey said:


> Eggs are more likely to give it to you than chicken,
> 
> Salmonella, as do all bacteria, live on surfaces at far greater abundance than in solution. An egg is a sealed unit so unless you eat the shell there's actually very little risk.
> 
> ...



The amount of myths about meat is incredible. The packaging material smell is a common complaint however, at times it is reminescent of soured meat, but the smell of true "off" meat is very much stronger and induces more of a reflex. 

My grandad, dad and both uncles were butchers, of which my uncle and grandad were master butchers (>25years in the trade). My dad was also a meat inspector fro 15 years and then an environmetal health offer for a few years. 

There's a lot of fear around meat and it's totally unneccesary, mostly because of over-zealous nanny culture adverts. 

This case of salmonella could have arisen from many sources, and there's no guarentee that it was not from something totally unrelated to reptiles or food prepared in the home, as it can take several days for the symptoms to arise. Hence why the Environmental health would be interested, because you might have eaten out days before and only developed the illness after a week, possibly 2.


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## thetong6969 (Apr 20, 2009)

you said most likely from reptles , when i decide to train proper at the gym this can mean anything from 6-20 eggs day.nurses panic as they are told eggs are bad for you,a varied diet isn't though and theres a risk of salmonella from the shells let alone contents(only come accross 1 nurse who was ok with this a proper diabetic nurse the rest panic as are told to do so),people will blame the first diagnosis off the top of their head,first question i got asked time and time again when diagnosed diabetic(because i was a powerlifter) was were you on steroids,things stick
glad you are better :2thumb:


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## thetong6969 (Apr 20, 2009)

animalstorey said:


> Tescos pre packed chicken breasts are rubbish. I've stopped buying the
> .


as are most supermarkets go to a decent butcher to the trade,much better meat: victory:


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

I just think it's a bit of a worry that reptile keepers are quick to say it was probably not from reptiles. Out of all the salmonella cases in the world more will be down to food than reptile keeping simply because more people are exposed to food than reptiles. Its the same for the statistics that say more people die in car crashes than plane crashes but the statistics for that mean nothing if your a pilot and flying every day.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

One has to open the egg whilst cooking- people forget to re wash there hands. The red lion is the safety mark to say they are safe- farms or the guy at the end of the street don't red lion or put a date on the eggs, you don't know how old they are or that they are haven't got sellonelle, until you've eaten them. I'm sure most farms are safe and the eggs are good, just that if the eggs are marked they are safe.
Telcos chicken has a very short life of about 3 -4 days. I've open packs the day before use and found it smelling off, slimy and with a green tint to it- OFF- even though I only live 2 miles away, and make sure it's in the fridge ASAP and put in a telco cool bag. It's happened often. It shouldn't smell off at all and shouldn't be slimy either. Yes it's good to wash it before use but I will not eat chicken if I think it's off sorry. Please send me your address and next time I'll post it to you. Many thanks for correcting me.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

animalstorey said:


> One has to open the egg whilst cooking- people forget to re wash there hands.
> 
> The red lion is the safety mark to say they are safe- farms or the guy at the end of the street don't red lion or put a date on the eggs, you don't know how old they are or that they are haven't got sellonelle, until you've eaten them.
> 
> ...


There's no need to be funny about it - I was brought up with many experts in the industry and am an enthusiatic cook. I also worked in a hotel restraunt when I was at school, surrounded by chefs. 

People are becoming so ignorant of what "real" meat smells like that they assume anything with a smell at all is off and should be thrown away. No different to people throwing away bacon when it has a greenish mirror sheen patch - this is antibiotic residue, but people mistake it for being off.

The best advice I can give you is try buying some rice wine and marinade your meat beforehand with a tablespoon or so. It's used extensively in chinese cuisine to rid meats of "rank" or unpleasant odours, and is extremely effective. 

As I said, you'll instantly know rank chicken - why not try it with the next set of "off chicken" - leave it outside for a day or two then smell it. You'll never forget that smell and you'll never confuse the two.


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