# One Large UK Show?



## dmrich (Nov 29, 2007)

Hi Guys

I have attended local reptile shows at Brentwood and Barking in the past (both were really busy in smallish venues), and although I did not attend Kempton Park last year - I understand that it was almost too popular, so that some people queued for hours and others did not get in at all.

My question is why do we not have large national shows at venues like Excel, Olympia, Earls Court or the NEC Birmingham? Surely the demand at the small local shows indicates the need for a large show at a City venue. You could then get all the breeders and suppliers in one venue at the same time making it far more attractive than attending numerous smaller shows throughout the year? It would also be far more attractive for exhibitors and visitors from abroad to attend.

I work for a company that attends shows twice annually (one at Excel and the other at the NEC) as part of the business and I cannot see why a Reptile show would not be a massive success and qualify the use of such a large venue (when I have been before these venues have held cake making, card making and baby shows, which I cannot imagine would be as much of a success as a Reptile/Amphibian show) ? 

What's everyones thoughts on this? and I guess Kempton Park has been an attempt at this - but it seems the demand is there for a far bigger event. Perhaps RFUK could hold it?


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## Grandpa (Oct 7, 2009)

dmrich said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I have attended local reptile shows at Brentwood and Barking in the past (both were really busy in smallish venues), and although I did not attend Kempton Park last year - I understand that it was almost too popular, so that some people queued for hours and others did not get in at all.
> 
> ...


The venue costs are prohibitive; 
Perhaps you would like to contact Excel or the NEC and enquire regarding a one day show as an exercise, I think you will be surprised. This post isn't intended as a pop, so please do not take it as such.

Have fun..


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

dmrich said:


> My question is why do we not have large national shows at venues like Excel, Olympia, Earls Court or the NEC Birmingham? ?


 
Simply because nobody has arranged one. RFUK couldn't hold one as it's just a website; it's not a club where everybody pays, or has a comittee etc. It started as a privately owned internet forum.

Like any other show, it'd just need somebody to decide they wanted to hold one in location A, speak to the local council, try to book the venue and take it from there.


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## dmrich (Nov 29, 2007)

Grandpa - I know that the places are very pricey (even parking there or getting a drink or something to eat requires a meeting with the bank manager) but surely if far more niche interests, with argueably a far smaller 'consumer' base (this word seems wrong in the context of our hobby but ultimately right), can do this then I see no reason why it could not be done?

Meko - yes you are probably right about RFUK not being right sponsor for such a show but it would likely need firm interest from some of the larger suppliers of equipment and clubs nationwide to support such an event (possibly also attract the support of well known hobbyists). Just seems a shame with so many hobbyists here in the UK that they have to travel to the continent for a large show, when we most likely have the resources here that is being split over regional shows.

Don't get me wrong as I am not in a position to arrange such an event myself, but surely someone with the right contacts and financial backing could make a big success of this?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

The reptile hobby is not big enough to hold an event at the N.E.C.or Olympia.However the show at Kempton Park is pretty large and its not a million miles from L.O.S. :2thumb:


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## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

Grandpa said:


> The venue costs are prohibitive;
> Perhaps you would like to contact Excel or the NEC and enquire regarding a one day show as an exercise, I think you will be surprised. This post isn't intended as a pop, so please do not take it as such.
> 
> Have fun..


We have stands at a lot of shows at these venues for marketing and it costs anything from 500-1000+ for a day subject to the type of show.. scary stuff and with only private breeders its not going to happen ever..


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

As has been said, to hire the venues you have said is very expensive.

But remember reptile shows are "breeders meetings" and therefore by law attendies have to be members of a club or organisation to enter as it is against the law to sell to the public, hence shows where livestock is sold you have to be a member of IHS or CREEKS etc.
Also the hobby isnt in my opinion big enough to hold such a large event even european events are not that big. And as for you comparing "baby, card and cake making" shows which are believe it or not are much larger business than reptiles. Also angling which is a huge sport and contributes multi millions, to the economy doesnt have its large angling show at the NEC anymore due to its expence.


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## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> As has been said, to hire the venues you have said is very expensive.
> 
> But remember reptile shows are "breeders meetings" and therefore by law attendies have to be members of a club or organisation to enter as it is against the law to sell to the public, hence shows where livestock is sold you have to be a member of IHS or CREEKS etc.
> Also the hobby isnt in my opinion big enough to hold such a large event even european events are not that big. And as for you comparing "baby, card and cake making" shows which are believe it or not are much larger business than reptiles. Also angling which is a huge sport and contributes multi millions, to the economy doesnt have its large angling show at the NEC anymore due to its expence.


Don't agree on your limitations as to who buyers should. Also it looks like all the shows to be held this year will be open to the public. probably more important is that all sellers should be hobbyists and members of FBH affiliated clubs. Ultimately the final say on restrictions come from the local authority in the area where a show is being held.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

leecb0 said:


> As has been said, to hire the venues you have said is very expensive.
> 
> But remember reptile shows are "breeders meetings" and therefore by law attendies have to be members of a club or organisation to enter as it is against the law to sell to the public, hence shows where livestock is sold you have to be a member of IHS or CREEKS etc.
> Also the hobby isnt in my opinion big enough to hold such a large event even european events are not that big. And as for you comparing "baby, card and cake making" shows which are believe it or not are much larger business than reptiles. Also angling which is a huge sport and contributes multi millions, to the economy doesnt have its large angling show at the NEC anymore due to its expence.


This isn't quite try. 
(perhaps many of you are too young to know or just haven't been around as this is a shortened version) 
Basicly the IHS and other societys did hold show open to the puplic. Then in the 2000s with a change to some laws there was a loop hole which CAPS and animal aid realised they could go to councils and stop the shows. The IHS and BHS campaigned long and hard but it ended up being members only shows. About 4 years ago the IHS opened it's doors to the public once again and so far it still does on there June and September days. 
Creaks had to get permission from the council to allow non members but they had to get people to join on the day. The following yr it was members only. This year creaks are saying it's going to be open to the public. 

The IHS have had brilliant shows in the 1990s they even had a two day event! 
However stopping the wc and shops selling animals (although there still are a number of shop owners breaking the rules as sAying they are private breeders) is actually good. The clubs have a member list and what to put things like this on for their members which they do. Perhaps more people should be members. Britian isn't that big compared to Europe and thus less keepers. I don't know of any other body that would want to hold a reptile show apart from these clubs/societies. If we had more members or they clubbed together then maybe we would have bigger shows but then there would be less of them. Remember though u have to get the tables full and that isn't likely to happen if the venue is 2 or 3 times bigger than the dome sports hall. 
Combining clubs isn't an easy thing at times. 

So they are not always closed to the public- we have to get councils on our sides again.


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## dmrich (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks for the most complete answer animalstorey rather than just dismiss the idea an too expensive or that there is not sufficient interest in this. 

Clearly something like this needs to overcome a lot of barriers and would require bridging the politics between the clubs and societies, authorities even before finding an ecomomic and suitable venue. I guess shops (unless they are also 'breeders' aswell) will also be less than enthusiastic about such an event as it takes trade away from their businesses.


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## rmy (Jun 13, 2010)

Did anyone go to the south east show at ashford a couple of weeks ago? There were dealers and shops at that
With the koi industry they hold a national show every year around the midlands. This is made up of many many dealers, shop owners and private hobbyists. They sell their goods to members of the public all day long who are not members of any club or association


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## dmrich (Nov 29, 2007)

oh and colinm - I was going to go to Kempton last year but had a birthday to go to, so could not make it. I may try and go this year, but it just seemed alot of people were saying that it was over attended - hence my original post : victory:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

rmy said:


> Did anyone go to the south east show at ashford a couple of weeks ago? There were dealers and shops at that
> With the koi industry they hold a national show every year around the midlands. This is made up of many many dealers, shop owners and private hobbyists. They sell their goods to members of the public all day long who are not members of any club or association



sadly the law surrounding the selling of animals in public is very strict and very clear, private hobbiests are allowed to sell excess stock, however shops can only sell dry goods and no one that holds a pet shop licence can sell animals at reptile Expos. There have been a couple of bleak years due to the Animal rights getting their teeth in to shows so everthing has to be squeaky clean and above board (as it should be regardless) Rules need to be followed to the letter. councils are already bombarded with literature video footage, outdated statistics etc by the Animal rights who are desperate to stop these show going ahead, in some cases they have frightened venues into cancelling and have set up campaigns including press releases.
We need to support the shows and the associations and continue to educate people so one day the scare and bully tactics will be finally dismissed as the bunkum they really are.
Kempton will be bigger and better this year, due to an overwhelming turn out of general public heath and safety had to stop people entering until others had left, however the show this year will have twice the capacity so those issues should not arise.


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## dmrich (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks wohic glad to hear the venue capacity has increased and will likely attend this year.

BTW I think I bought a baby Yemen off you at the Barking show 4 years (ish) ago (was it you?) and I now blame you entirely for my interest in Chameleons! :lol2:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

dmrich said:


> Thanks wohic glad to hear the venue capacity has increased and will likely attend this year.
> 
> BTW I think I bought a baby Yemen off you at the Barking show 4 years (ish) ago (was it you?) and I now blame you entirely for my interest in Chameleons! :lol2:


I think it probably was !  Chams are rather wonderful though so I dont mind being blamed for that :lol2:


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## dmrich (Nov 29, 2007)

I thought it was - no it's a good thing and thank you! You gave a great caresheet at the time and the Chameleon grew into a very good natured adult.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

dmrich said:


> I thought it was - no it's a good thing and thank you! You gave a great caresheet at the time and the Chameleon grew into a very good natured adult.


Awww thank you, its our pleasure !
we have 42 little baby yemens at the mo and i cant stop watching them !


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Animalstory and Austin alegro, i didnt really want to go into the whole politics of shows, and who can go and who can sell etc, especially with the laws can be interpreted in different ways (thats british politics for you) so i did generalise my answer

And i have been around a long time since late 70's early 80's so i know what its been like over the years i remember the west mids shows at Alumwell school which were fairly good shows, but the shows these days are IMO not as good and as varied as they used to be.

But my main point about large shows is the cost is prohibitive and the hobby isnt bit enough for some of the venues, I think the donny show is as big as this country can realistically get away with really.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

leecb0 said:


> Animalstory and Austin alegro, i didnt really want to go into the whole politics of shows, and who can go and who can sell etc, especially with the laws can be interpreted in different ways (thats british politics for you) so i did generalise my answer
> 
> And i have been around a long time since late 70's early 80's so i know what its been like over the years i remember the west mids shows at Alumwell school which were fairly good shows, but the shows these days are IMO not as good and as varied as they used to be.
> 
> But my main point about large shows is the cost is prohibitive and the hobby isnt bit enough for some of the venues, I think the donny show is as big as this country can realistically get away with really.


Kempton was way bigger than Donny last year and looks to be bigger again this year


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## DrChino (Aug 23, 2010)

Ignoring all the logistics of it, this would be an awesome thing! I've been to Excel for a wine show and the guitar show and it was awesome, I'd be in absolute heaven for a reptile show!


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

wohic said:


> Kempton was way bigger than Donny last year and looks to be bigger again this year


I havent been so i cant comment i donr go to many UK shows these days as they dont have anything that really interests me enough to go. I would prefere to save mymoney and go to Europe.
Its ok saying Kempton is a big show but from my experience its too heavy on the royal morph and bearded and leo front, and i am not alone in this as many i speake to say they dont like the UK shows because of it


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

leecb0 said:


> I havent been so i cant comment i donr go to many UK shows these days as they dont have anything that really interests me enough to go. I would prefere to save mymoney and go to Europe.
> Its ok saying Kempton is a big show but from my experience its too heavy on the royal morph and bearded and leo front, and i am not alone in this as many i speake to say they dont like the UK shows because of it


I agree but if you look around you will find some gems.

I didnt go to kempton but went to pras, kiddy and donny. I believe kempton was bigger and its doubling in size this year. All we need is a few shows to do this and in years to come big venues will be achievable. Donny could easily double imo


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## rickpellen (Nov 21, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> Its ok saying Kempton is a big show but from my experience its too heavy on the royal morph and bearded and leo front, and i am not alone in this as many i speake to say they dont like the UK shows because of it


This is true, why the hell the are there so many hobbiests that want bloody beardies and leos and corns etc. 

Thats kinda the point of being a hobbiest, you want stuff that is abit more interesting, and shows are only really for hobbiests not people buying their first beardie!!

You go to germany and its nothing like this, i was looking at sanzina, 100 flower snakes, even species that i didnt recognize. Thats the problem with a british show, there arent the breeders here for any of the type of species that i would want to buy, so hence i go to germany. Hopefully ill have some stuff for a table at a UK show this year, i shuld hope ill have sum radiateds at the very least, hardly exotic but at least they're abit different. Maybe even falsie babies if im very lucky....


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## Grandpa (Oct 7, 2009)

rickpellen said:


> This is true, why the hell the are there so many hobbiests that want bloody beardies and leos and corns etc.
> 
> Thats kinda the point of being a hobbiest, you want stuff that is abit more interesting, and shows are only really for hobbiests not people buying their first beardie!!
> 
> You go to germany and its nothing like this, i was looking at sanzina, 100 flower snakes, even species that i didnt recognize. Thats the problem with a british show, there arent the breeders here for any of the type of species that i would want to buy, so hence i go to germany. Hopefully ill have some stuff for a table at a UK show this year, i shuld hope ill have sum radiateds at the very least, hardly exotic but at least they're abit different. Maybe even falsie babies if im very lucky....



Rick,

I hope you do, last year we tried to get people at Kempton Park that didnt have Beardies, Leo's & Royals, but these are Breeders meetings, and if thats all people are breeding in the hope of scoring £KK's on one animal, then thats it. Too be fair we had quite a collection at last years show, from Fiji iguana's to Woma's or was it black-headed pythons????

We need breeders of some of the more unusual stuff to come, i'm of an age when I can remember the IHS shows of the 70's & 80's there was always something to find, but remember back then grey-banded kings or brazilian rainbow boas were rare in captivity, now every one has them.

This year, we hope to have a good cross section of stock for sale.


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

I can remember the shows in the 70's and 80's and the huge variety of animals and the huge attendance these shows achieved.
The reason that shows in the UK will never be the same as the "good old days" or on par with Hamm is that these shows, as has been mentioned, cannot be attended by any one who commercially sells livestock.
In Hamm I suspect around 50% of sellers there are commercial enterprises and these would not be allowed to attend any UK shows.
I have many, many species but cannot sell any at Kempton because I hold a Pet Shop Licence and are a commercial enterprise.
I am afraid all I can sell are dry goods!


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Believe the no shops policy has nothing to do with the law (I could be wrong) but more so breeder get a chance to sell there animals fairly.in the past shops did attend and sold off alsorts of 'old stock'. After all they have a leicence to sell animals but also can get imported cheep animals and under cut members. The IHS tries to stop wild collected animals which often shops do buy. This reduces (tries too) the amount of stressed animals and problems for buyers. They Basicly needed to look and sound good in front of the councils to hold the shows. 
I don't know who organises kempton but last year I know they had loads of issues. Remember it's closer to London and London has a lot of people. There are also going to be lots of sight seers and even tourists. Also breeders from Europe will come to London but not wanting to travel to the midlands etc. The invert world has a Good following and at entomological show there aren't the problems accocated with vertebrate animals. When Kettering was on there were always a number of European breeders conning over. Especial Germans with their tarantulas. They often go to the BTS midlands show but it's a major journey for them. 
Although reptiles are popular pets they aren't as popular as dogs or bunnies so often frowned on by general public. Maybe now reps are being sold in the dreaded pets at home more people will come into contact with them and reactions will change. Stupid RSPCA have also got a lot to answer for as they are really against keeping exotics, just they didn't get the laws change like they wanted and now hAve to learn about our hobby. Its a big mess to be honest, I'm waiting for the day they try to tell us all about how to keep our animals(ok they do now) and set minimum size vivs etc. Imaging all those spider keepers getting told old film containers aren't allowed for there slings or they ban RUBS!


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

DrChino said:


> Ignoring all the logistics of it, this would be an awesome thing! I've been to Excel for a wine show and the guitar show and it was awesome, I'd be in absolute heaven for a reptile show!


 A wine and reptile show gets my vote bring it on:mf_dribble:
Seriously though I think that these things have to grow slowly and Kempton Park was a huge leap forward but I wonder if there are too many shows.There didn`t seem too many at the November Kidderminster show to me.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Well I hopes kempton sort out the room problems specialy if they double in size. Everyone I know that went complained about cramped conditions, over heating and no room to swing a snake.


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

November kiddy was shockingly quite for two reasons first being the limited members allowed to go the second the serious problems creaks created by not sending memberships out


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## Grandpa (Oct 7, 2009)

animalstorey said:


> Well I hopes kempton sort out the room problems specialy if they double in size. Everyone I know that went complained about cramped conditions, over heating and no room to swing a snake.



*Are these the same people that moaned because they had to wait an hour or two to get in??*

Yes it was tight - that's why we stopped people going in under H&S regulations. This year we have doubled the floor space with a fractional increase in the number of tables. The heat problem was due to faulty air-con, which the organisers had no control over, the venue did send a team to the roof to attempt a repair, but hey, I get the impression you are not happy unless you are moaning.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Grandpa said:


> *Are these the same people that moaned because they had to wait an hour or two to get in??*
> 
> Yes it was tight - that's why we stopped people going in under H&S regulations. This year we have doubled the floor space with a fractional increase in the number of tables. The heat problem was due to faulty air-con, which the organisers had no control over, the venue did send a team to the roof to attempt a repair, but hey, I get the impression you are not happy unless you are moaning.


I don't think any of the guys I know that went had issues getting it. All of them just said there had been a big heat and crowd problem but seems you agree. One did say the line was long. No, I'm hoping the show improves and gets better! We have to learn what works and what doesn't and improve. I didn't go as too far north which is a shame a I like to support these type of events.


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

animalstorey said:


> Believe the no shops policy has nothing to do with the law (I could be wrong)


It's everything to do with the law.
Commercial Pet Fairs are prohibited in the UK.
No commercial animal sellers are allowed to attend these "Breeder meetings" selling animals.
There is no mechanism for temporary Pet Shop Licensing at such meetings and as such any comemrcial sellers are in breach of the law.
This is how pressure from the loonies stopped all the big fairs.
In fact, if any commercial sellers or commercial transactions are found to occur at any of these breeder meetings then the meeting would very likley be stopped and closed as it would be in breach of the law.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

peterf said:


> It's everything to do with the law.
> Commercial Pet Fairs are prohibited in the UK.
> No commercial animal sellers are allowed to attend these "Breeder meetings" selling animals.
> There is no mechanism for temporary Pet Shop Licensing at such meetings and as such any comemrcial sellers are in breach of the law.
> ...


In the 1990'and early 2000 there were shops selling animals at these shows. Its obviously changed then. What dose annoy me is all the 'private breeder' going to Hamm a few weeks before bringing back shit loads of animals and then sell them at the uk shows. Its hard though as most shops breed and I know for a fact these breeders do have tables at the shows. At klcreaks in November the lady next to us had a pet shop as all her carry boxes had the shop name on them! And theres a guy that has a table at dony every year that owns/ works in one as I was visiting through a city and stopped at a reptile shop and he served me! I bet I could point out at least 6 so called pet shop owers/affiliates at each show!


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

I would suggest constraint when making such claims in public!
Should this be the case then breeder meets will certainly be stopped!
Dont forget that it's only the last couple of years that breeder meets have been allowed!


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

peterf said:


> I would suggest constraint when making such claims in public!
> Should this be the case then breeder meets will certainly be stopped!
> Dont forget that it's only the last couple of years that breeder meets have been allowed!


Well I dont want to name them but sadly it's very true. The lady next to me at kiddy admitted it when we asked and pointed out the boxes. These shows were only stopped due to animal aid and caps in the mid 2000s before this most shops sold animals at shows.
The orgIIsers need to be really up on the game but it's hard.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Maybe i was in the wrong ands should have pointed it out to the organisers as these people could ruin it for hobbyists Like me.


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## Grandpa (Oct 7, 2009)

Right this thread has gone nice and quiet, but in the meantime;

A) I personally DO NOT want a return to the bad old days of a reptile show every weekend, nor do I want privateers to hold a fully commercial show, with wild caught animals coming straight from the importers to the sales table. _ ( I must point out that I have nothing against importers, indeed without these, we wouldn't have half the species available that we have today, and that a large proportion of imported animals these days are captive bred / farmed)._

B) I would like to see perhaps two or three large shows a year, at either end of the country so that all can attend, without having to transport purchases hundreds of miles home.

C) The shows at present are *Breeders meetings. *Can a private breeder selling their surplus captive bred offspring or adult animals justify the costs of a large venue, such as the NEC or ExCel in London?

D) I have been busy, and the floor space with have this year at Kempton Park, would cost us £17K, admittedly ExCel have been generous and allowed extra space at no extra cost for the Educational displays and talks. Thats just the hall space, parking costs? (never been), security, first aid, stewards £???

This would mean paying £200-£250 for a pitch for every vendor.

I trust this helps to explain why the joint societies have returned to Kempton Park this year.


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## Lesk86 (Jan 24, 2011)

I live in London - Harrow to be precise - i don't drive and have been searching for a venue which holds these types of events.. can anyone advise on a easy to get to on public transport reptile event???:hmm:


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

The donny show is run by the IHS and has been going for a good number of years, however it was Originaly the alumwell show for a long time. To sell you have to belong to the IHS. But the first two in the year are not breeder meetings like the third one as they are open to the public unlike the 3rd which is members only.
Regardless of other peoples shows the IHS I forsee will always hold theirs. 
If some one what's to hold 3 big shows a year then fair play to them but the shows that are out there at present are mostly club/society shows and they aren't likely to want to stop.
If some one wanted to organise these big events then I suppose anyone could go and sell if thats the conditions set by the organisers and council agreed.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Lesk86 said:


> I live in London - Harrow to be precise - i don't drive and have been searching for a venue which holds these types of events.. can anyone advise on a easy to get to on public transport reptile event???:hmm:


Do the BHS hold a meeting? They are London based.
You have kempton park.


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## Grandpa (Oct 7, 2009)

animalstorey said:


> Do the BHS hold a meeting? They are London based.
> You have kempton park.



Exactly - Kempton Park has its very own mail line railway station.

The BHS used to hold breeders meetings, but the last one I attended was either Watford or Uxbridge -- getting too old.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Grandpa said:


> Exactly - Kempton Park has its very own mail line railway station.
> 
> The BHS used to hold breeders meetings, but the last one I attended was either Watford or Uxbridge -- getting too old.


Know that feeling! Lol. Hell I use to go to alsorts, Manchester, Darlington, etc


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