# What's wrong with non-venomous "trainer snakes" .... ? Absolutely everything.



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

*What's wrong with non-venomous "trainer snakes" .... ? Absolutely everything.*

A while back I was invited to go visit the collection of a DWA keeper that I've been speaking to about the theory and practice of keeping venomous species of reptile for several months. Recently I was able to take up the invitation.

It's taken me a bit to start internalising the experience and start to understand how I feel about it now that I've seen some - amazing, fantastic, beautiful, terrible - animals that weren't behind zoo glass.

I hope that folks who are *thinking about* applying for a licence and keeping DWA and haven't gotten so far as actually seeing these animals in the flesh don't mind me sharing my thoughts. I also hope that the licenced folks out there don't mind me waffling and sounding a bit like a fangirl - and just a little bit like a phobic.

I think, in terms of reptile keeping, seeing those animals was the most *humbling* experience I have ever had. I thought I knew how to handle snakes.

In visiting, I think I may have learned how to make a blood python into a trainer snake if you want _Bitis _species.
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First, get the snarkiest subadult blood you can find.
Next, measure him for his suit. Yes, he needs a suit, and you're going to make it with these materials:

The coarsest grade sandpaper you can get, cut into long, very thin strips.
1 gross (144) flexible hacksaw blades, multiple sizes.
A crochet hook
Two hypodermic needles, longer than you'd think you need.

Crochet the sandpaper strips into a body suit for the blood python - rough side out as much as you possibly can. 
Then weave the hacksaw blades into the body suit, teeth facing backwards.
Lastly, mount the hypodermics into the head end so that they can get you whether the mouth is open or not.

Now, get the body suit onto the blood python. If you haven't been bitten at any point by the blood up to suiting-up, you need a different blood python.

Once you have a very sharp and pointy blood python that wants to hurt you because you've put him in this horrible suit, give him three doppio espressos, with five sugars each. Then stomp once, very hard, on the end of his tail. 

Now... try to treat him for an abscessed tooth.
---------------------------------

It ain't a rhino viper, but it might get about halfway there. 

See, I realised that the things I do to handle my snakes - even when doing invasive and not necessarily pleasant things like treating mouth rot - would get me HURT if I tried it with a hot. 

If you have a royal whose mouth you need to open, and your grip's bad and your fingers are blocking you from seeing what you need to see, you can keep hold of the snake's body and let go of its head to go for a better grip. Even if it does have a go at you, it's NO BIG DEAL. And even though I don't like being bitten - I'd go so far as to say I'm afraid of it, because I hate needles - I still know in my head and in my guts that letting go of the royal and getting a better grip isn't a mistake if that's what I really need to do, it's OK.

I finally - when it was right in front of me - realised to my bones that if you don't have a good grip on a puff adder, letting go of the head and keeping hold of the rest is not an option - that the way I currently handle my snakes is WRONG for handling anything like that.

Now, of course, part of me is saying "Yes, but you wouldn't be HANDLING a hot, it's a snake for looking at, and keeping at hook's distance the rest of the time." Ok, fair enough. If the husbandry's correct, 95% of the time that might work.

But I can't help but think "What if a heat mat shorted out and I didn't realise straight away, and I wound up with a respiratory infection to treat?" You can't administer antibiotics with the end of a hook at arm's distance. 

You can't remove an eyecap from a snake that's sitting in a locked viv, either. I don't have the first clue how I'd hold a snake that steady without being able to adjust my grip with a NEW handhold on the snake's head if I needed to.

Add to that little things that care sheets don't tell you - like what "strongly keeled scales" means in a practical sense. I had no clue that a snake as beautiful as a rhino viper had scales so sharp they can cut - that they can draw blood and leave an open wound.

Crap. I don't know if I CAN keep venomous. 

I sure don't have the skill to do it right now.

I'm just very, very grateful to our friend for showing me exactly how much I don't know. Better to find out that way - in a controlled situation with someone who does know what they're doing - than to have jumped through the hoops and straight into deep water when I didn't *know *I couldn't swim. 

Thanks, dude. You might well have saved my fingers, if not more. 

It might not stop me from deciding I want to learn, but I sure do intend to stop and THINK about whether it's worth it for me.

Oh... there's nothing so disturbing or visceral as the voice of a puff adder who's promising your death if you screw up. That sound goes right through the sensible thinking parts of your brain and into the lizard-brain, and makes you want to be anywhere it isn't.


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## Skorps (Nov 23, 2009)

Very well written and a beautiful read!

I know nothing about "Hots" nor do I think that I would ever go down the route of DWA- The closest I have been (and would hope to be) to a DWA in the wild is in a bekkie in SA looking out of the closed window- from the drivers side while Hubby took photos from the passenger side.

I do so hope that anyone who is "toying" with the idea of owning and caring for a DWA snake- or any DWA for that fact reads this I found it quite chilling...

Oh- and that last bit...



Ssthisto said:


> Oh... there's nothing so disturbing or visceral as the voice of a puff adder who's promising your death if you screw up. That sound goes right through the sensible thinking parts of your brain and into the lizard-brain, and makes you want to be anywhere it isn't.


...has given me goose bumps...

xXx


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## andy2086 (Dec 26, 2008)

Great read! :no1:

As some of the DWA keepers have said before, NO SNAKE can prepare you for or can be compared to DWA snakes, not even a mangrove with a bad hangover who's just been cheated on!

Great respect goes to all the DWA keepers! :notworthy: :notworthy:


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## Webleybulldog455 (May 11, 2010)

Great post! I have major respect for the DWA keepers,not many "hobbies" can lead to your death so quick or painful :gasp: I am applying for my DWAL for Buthid scorpions soon but "hot" snakes are a diffrent ball game. An angry "hot" on the end of a snake hook,I just dont have the skills for :blush:
Respect guys,stay safe! :2thumb:


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## mattykyuss (Oct 12, 2009)

*re*

first ,this was such a true and heart felt read,i to have a very good friend with some of the most stunning snakes on earth ,he is 20 to 30 years into his much loved hobby and his life with such animals,safe as he is ,when i visit to talk and learn about these snakes i feel so lucky ,but seeing such a quick strike ,a no i wont back down attitude ,i could not for love or money handle these safely and with this being the case ,could never give the love and care they would deserve ,dwa for snakes is so important ,not just to keep mr or mrs not ready for this higher level of a hobby,but for such amazing animals to get the life and respect they need and deserve to be healthy,matl


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

I realised the other day whilst feeding hatchling trinket snakes that if I was a venomous keeper I would be a dead one.The little sods are very quick and so keen to prove that they are a cobra in disguise that they actually jump at you. It did make me wonder, if you have hatchling venomous snakes the best you can do is chuck the food in and hope for the best.What do you do if it one of those snakes that requires assist feeding? Even pinning the snake down would be hazardous to both snake and keeper.This,coupled with the fact that I am clumsy up to olympic standard is the reason I stick to the non-venomous.It's all to do with breathing you see, Iv'e been doing it for years now and I have got used to it.Not that I would be against d.w.a. animal keeping.Each to his/her own.Harry


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

htf666 said:


> I realised the other day whilst feeding hatchling trinket snakes that if I was a venomous keeper I would be a dead one.The little sods are very quick and so keen to prove that they are a cobra in disguise that they actually jump at you. It did make me wonder, if you have hatchling venomous snakes the best you can do is chuck the food in and hope for the best.What do you do if it one of those snakes that requires assist feeding? Even pinning the snake down would be hazardous to both snake and keeper.This,coupled with the fact that I am clumsy up to olympic standard is the reason I stick to the non-venomous.It's all to do with breathing you see, Iv'e been doing it for years now and I have got used to it.Not that I would be against d.w.a. animal keeping.Each to his/her own.Harry


iv had to assist feed 2 baby mojave rattlers for the last few months, once you get into a routine of doing things its not to bad, just always remember what im dealing with and dont take any chances


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

That was a refeshing read and makes a change to here somebody going about it the right way so to speak. Seems to many people think that keeping venomous is all about hooks and tongs etc, But just like any other snake be it a corn or a boa they can get sick or need a helping hand in someway or another like retained brill caps etc. Before anybody thinks about getting a DWAL they should realy ask themselves some questions. If you are going to keep venomouse you WILL have to get hands on at some stage, i guarantee every DWAL holder here who keeps snakes has to handle there snakes most weeks weather its to move them for cage cleaning or to treat with medication or assist feed. You need to be confident when hook and tailing but treat the snake with due respect.
It has nothing to do with having balls, bravery or anything like that it simply comes down to some people can do it and others cant, just like some people think nothing about a plane with with some laundry in a rucksack on there back and some can go scuba diving surrounded by fish. (2 things i have tried and realised its not for me)


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Webleybulldog455 said:


> I am applying for my DWAL for Buthid scorpions soon but "hot" snakes are a diffrent ball game.


See, I'd be even *more* scared of scorpions. I don't understand how they behave at all because I've never observed them long enough to get a feel for it. That, and they are small, scuttly and ever so quick... and can squeeze into very, very small spaces.

Not a family for me, although I wish you all the best for your application.



htf666 said:


> I realised the other day whilst feeding hatchling trinket snakes that if I was a venomous keeper I would be a dead one....coupled with the fact that I am clumsy up to olympic standard is the reason I stick to the non-venomous.


That is pretty much it. I'm also not the most graceful or coordinated of people - for some reason I seem to think I'm standing three inches further to the right than I really am, probably something to do with my extremely poor vision on my left side - and I just don't know if I could adapt to handling something like the puff adder. Those snakes do not move like any species I have ever kept. They don't move like any species I have ever seen up close before. If I tried to apply what I know about how XYZ moves to that snake... then my hands are going to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I could see, in how they moved, how fast something could go utterly pear-shaped, and it's fast enough I might not see it coming.

It's definitely put me off - at least in the middle to long term - of the idea of ever owning _Bitis _species. Fascinating, beautiful, but I think I will leave keeping them for people who don't have the weeble chip installed in their knees and no depth perception on the left.



leecb0 said:


> That was a refeshing read and makes a change to here somebody going about it the right way so to speak. Seems to many people think that keeping venomous is all about hooks and tongs etc


The other thing I saw in action is that the hooks I've got (mostly for waking up snakes so that they know I'm there, and for knocking locusts off the UV guard at the back of a three-foot-deep vivarium) are not going to be the best tool for the job if I ever do go DWAL. There are issues of balance, shape and materials that make them less desirable than, perhaps, a modified paint roller handle.



> But just like any other snake be it a corn or a boa they can get sick or need a helping hand in someway or another like retained brill caps etc. Before anybody thinks about getting a DWAL they should realy ask themselves some questions.


*nod* I just didn't realise which questions I need to ask myself until I had everything right there in front of me. 

It was a great night, an educational experience, but it's really shown me I have a LOT more to learn before I even think about it for myself.

I do hope to go back in the not too distant future; I'd like to get some photos to do a couple of drawings. A picture of a rhino viper in a viv might just about suit me


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## elliot ness (Oct 5, 2008)

Ssthisto
scorps are not that quick mate....not compared to spids anyway.
They also are shite at climbing glass,can't jump and you would only ever go into the tank with long tweezers.
For them to hide...they would have to get out and as previous....that is not easily going to happen.
Stick to snakes mate
Paul


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

elliot ness said:


> Ssthisto
> scorps are not that quick mate....not compared to spids anyway.
> They also are shite at climbing glass,can't jump and you would only ever go into the tank with long tweezers.
> For them to hide...they would have to get out and as previous....that is not easily going to happen.
> Paul


*shrug* I've seen scorpions before, and they moved very quickly as far as I'm concerned as their "default" mode of movement. I'm not _personally _comfortable with the idea of _me _keeping any scorpion, let alone a DWA one; I would much prefer any DWA species I have to have vertebrae 

Or, as is more likely, I'll get a corn snake and paint it the same colour and pattern as a rhino viper, that's what I feel confident in my abilities to cope with right now.


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## rob challis (Mar 23, 2010)

What a great and thought provoking read-thank you.

I have not handled hots for some years and now am too old to be quick enough.

What I do now is to acquire them for a particular zoo so that I get the pleasure of seeing them and also being part of their conservation programme.

Most specimins, eve obscure WC, are relatively cheap compared to some of the Python etc. morphs one sees for sale.

Regards,

Rob


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

A very evocative and thought procurring decription of your experience. :no1: 
All i want to do is keep gilas at some point not interested in hot snakes at all and that description has deffinatly put me off even going near them :lol2:

Cheers Shane.


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## cobra759 (Feb 27, 2008)

That was a great read. Indeed it's something I have often thought of in relation to keeping venomous snakes, what if the snake needs hands on treatment for a particular illness or injury, have you got someone to assist you. I doubt many vets would be willing to risk life and limb in helping you out, and anyway it's not as though you can just walk into a vets surgery with a Cobra under your arm and ask them to administer treatment.

I do sometimes think it would be nice to keep some sort of Venomous snake maybe a western diamondback, copperhead or cobra but in reality when I sit down and think about it carefully I realise that it's probably over and above what I'm capable of, not necessarily the care of the animals but the huge responsibility that goes with it. 
Experienced hot keepers might disagree with me but I think once you start keeping these sorts of animals it moves away from being a hobby and becomes more a way of life.

There are plenty of interesting snakes out there that don't have fangs and while I respect those who do keep venomous the one's without fangs are the one's I'll be sticking too.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

Love the OP, very well written and introspective, a nice change to the "I don't have them now but I WILL have them in 1 year/5 years/10 years" that you see every few posts. I love some of the turns of phrase, too :2thumb:

One of the biggest factors that a lot of novices (or wannabes) fail to grasp (whether out of ignorance, stupidity or just plain braggadocio) is not just "can I train for a venomous snake with a rat snake or viper boa" but "will my training with said rat snake or viper boa _really_ prepare me mentally (not just physically) for dealing with a dangerous snake?"

It's a _confidence_ issue, not just a skill issue, and that confidence can only come through experience; a brush with _real_ danger, not an irked Radiated Rat Snake lunging ineffectually at you from three feet away. I've compared it before to playing poker: when you're playing for chips or just for kicks, you might play brilliantly, but the moment real money (your own) is involved, your composure will be affected, your judgment will be affected, you will be more cautious and, basically, you'll be much easier for your opponent to read. 

Unfortunately, if the snake reads you, it's not just money you lose... (although for sure you'll lose a lot of that too!)

Plus, as has been said before _ad infinitum_, there really is not a single iota of similarity to a "practice" snake striking at you and a wound-up Puff Adder or Cape Cobra attempting to unleash a world of hurt upon you... (Mangrove snakes? Move like geriatrics. _So_ not a good comparison that it isn't even funny).

Personally, supposing I won the lottery or found the few thousand pounds on the pavement required to build a secure room to house some hots, I could see myself getting a few of the smaller _Vipera_ and _Bitis_ species, or some _Atheris_, or even _Dispholidus_. That's what I'd be comfortable dealing with on a day-to-day, year-to-year basis.

In my weaker moments I even imagine what it would be like having Green Mambas (I have a weakness for bright green snakes of all kinds). Then I head on over to the _Thrasops_ vivarium and open it. Wrestling an inquisitive, ravenous and rather intuitive seven-foot tree snake that has the capacity to cause me harm back into its enclosure reminds me why I wouldn't like to have to do this with an inquisitive, ravenous and rather intuitive seven-foot tree snake that has the capacity to end my life...

Having dealt with several wild elapids and puffies, I know for a fact that I will never consider bringing a snake like this into my house...

Regards,
Francis


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Thrasops said:


> Love the OP, very well written and introspective, a nice change to the "I don't have them now but I WILL have them in 1 year/5 years/10 years" that you see every few posts. I love some of the turns of phrase, too :2thumb:


At this point my opinion on it, now that I've had plenty of time to digest it, is "I would like to see how _Vipera _species behave when cage maintenance is performed, as that is the genus my partner and I are particularly interested in as far as snakes go, because my previous interest in certain members of _Bitis _is not as great as my current and ongoing interest in keeping the number of digits and limbs I currently have."



> It's a _confidence_ issue, not just a skill issue, and that confidence can only come through experience; a brush with _real_ danger, not an irked Radiated Rat Snake lunging ineffectually at you from three feet away. I've compared it before to playing poker: when you're playing for chips or just for kicks, you might play brilliantly, but the moment real money (your own) is involved, your composure will be affected, your judgment will be affected, you will be more cautious and, basically, you'll be much easier for your opponent to read.
> 
> Unfortunately, if the snake reads you, it's not just money you lose... (although for sure you'll lose a lot of that too!)


Exactly. Up to now I don't think I've even been playing poker, I've been playing Solitaire and occasionally shuffling the cards mid-gameplay. I've just learned how different the rules are when you're playing a totally different game against an opponent who doesn't have an interest in you winning.

My snakes are, in general, all exceptionally CALM members of their species (unlike some of my lizards - I am less nervous of lizard bites, and have a greater tolerance for feisty behaviour from them); many of them are snakes that I can reach out and "beep" on the nose without fear of being struck on the finger. And we handle our hognose minimally *because* we respect that he does have venom, whether or not it might be medically significant for us.

I think I'm going to start small. My first project is "Learn how to keep hold of a snake's tail whether or not it wants you to." Yeah, that's something I have trouble with. I worry about hurting them, so I will as often as not let go and get a better grip when I've picked the snake up again. I don't generally have any trouble probing snakes, but that might be after four or five attempts at getting the tail in a firm, secure grip. I need to learn how to get that grip the first time, every time, without hurting the snake or letting it hurt itself thrashing around. If I can do that, then I can start thinking about how to get an equally good grip on a snake's head if necessary. Which will probably immeasurably improve my general snake handling skills and make me feel a little less like I can only put the two on top of the ace in Solitaire.

I started practicing with Marten, our big pine snake, at the weekend while cleaning cages (since he is a little tetchy about his tail) ... boy, after hearing the puff adders, his hiss just plain doesn't have the kick it used to.



> Plus, as has been said before _ad infinitum_, there really is not a single iota of similarity to a "practice" snake striking at you and a wound-up Puff Adder or Cape Cobra attempting to unleash a world of hurt upon you... (Mangrove snakes? Move like geriatrics. _So_ not a good comparison that it isn't even funny).


Having seen the puff adder in action.... nothing, nothing NOTHING I have ever seen moves like that. The keeper I visited had more than one; the big one _seemed _fairly manageable, although that is relative and when I say that I mean "I couldn't and probably shouldn't ever try to work with that animal, but I think my partner could learn".... but the little one. The little one was an angry little booger who struck in directions I never expected a snake to strike and the speed is something else entirely. Royal python strike? Corn snake strike? Radiated ratsnake I-really-mean-it strike? You'll see that miles off compared to the "zap" a puff adder's got. They do have one clear telegraphing sign, but when they're doing that the WHOLE time you're looking at them it's not much help to know that "nose pointing down = preparing to strike".

Incidentally, what do puff adders eat in the wild that JUMPS? That's the only logical reason I can think of for them to flick their heads UP to strike instead of striking mostly-out... or do they strike for prey differently than they strike at potential attackers? 



> Personally, supposing I won the lottery or found the few thousand pounds on the pavement required to build a secure room to house some hots, I could see myself getting a few of the smaller _Vipera_ and _Bitis_ species, or some _Atheris_, or even _Dispholidus_. That's what I'd be comfortable dealing with on a day-to-day, year-to-year basis.


Precisely. As I said, I'd like to see the behaviour of more species and genera in person if I can get the opportunity to do so; hopefully I will find other sympathetic keepers that I can speak to over a matter of months about how they keep the species they have - and who, once they know I'm not going to do something stupid or pose a risk they can't take, might be willing for me to come _watch _as they manage and maintain their animals. 

It might be, after viewing a number of genera, that I decide that *none *of them are right for me, that I just don't want to take that risk every day for the rest of those animals' lives.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

The Puff's defensive strike is very different to the feeding strike, essentially because they aren't defending themselves when feeding, so not posture adopted. To be fair, they don't all posture up prior to throwing a defensive strike either.
The reason for the upwards strike against people is because we're above them, as are most things that want to threaten a puff adder, and they tend to strike for central mass. If the aggressor is on their level though, they will strike horizontally. To be honest, a puff will strike wherever the threat is coming from. Extremely accurately too. If you want to see a no-warning, strike backwards over their own body with head upside-down at lightning speed manouver, look no further than a puff adder. Stand behind one and poke it with a stick. You'll see exactly that.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Cheers for that, Dave - I had thought puff adders *might* have a different typical strike (unless of course they were eating jerboas!) when feeding, but it's interesting to know that the nose-down posturing isn't used either. 

I will refrain from poking _Bitis arietans_ in the back of the head with a stick, however... I think their strike straight forward/up-sideways is impressive enough without seeing backwards fangs-over-teakettle.


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

Very good post Ssthisto. I for one am extremely aware of how I am not suited to deal with hots. They are stunning, the pictures are amazing and I am happy to go, look (through glass) and drool (maybe even photograph)at one belonging to someone else but would I keep one? Hell no! 

I have been tagged by a fair few innocuous things, taiwanese blue beauties, juvi bloods, juvi boas, juvi carpets etc etc and that was bad enough without adding venom into the mix. Not for me thanks! But they are soo pretty...


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Having seen the puff adder in action.... nothing, nothing NOTHING I have ever seen moves like that.
> .


I do remember a book stating that they can strike up to four times a second (I'm fairly sure it's in Bill Branch's field guide) so for such a heavy-bodied snake goes to show how fast they can hit you...



terciopelo_dave said:


> If you want to see a no-warning, strike backwards over their own body with head upside-down at lightning speed manouver, look no further than a puff adder. Stand behind one and poke it with a stick. You'll see exactly that.


:no1: I can testify to this personally, when I was out in South Africa we had one come into a hut (to be fair, the huts we were sleeping in had a fabric "door" that began a foot off the ground, so there were plenty of toads, tortoises and all sorts of invertebrates sharing the room with us). We found it under one of the beds (what would have happened if I hadn't spotted it and somebody had got bitten on the foot or calf I wouldn't like to think... we were rafting along the Breede River at the time and there was no civilisation around for miles save a few isolated farms).

Anyway, the only solution was to gently "sweep" it out back into the wilderness with a broom. Luckily it wasn't huge, only about three feet (although it still looked plenty big to me at the time!) and it was having a hell of a tantrum... (and making a hell of a racket too!)

Francis


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## Jolio (Sep 8, 2009)

fantastic read, and what an experience. 

As shane said, the possibility of keeping gila's even the slim chance of a dwarf caimen etc would be as far as it goes for me, but this just highlights the need for said licence.


Its all to easy to walk in to some half bent rep shop and pick up even a 'common' type of large snake or monitor and then the keeper is in water way out of their depth, let alone getting into the venomous side of things.

:no1::no1::no1: thanks for sharing


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

Jolio said:


> fantastic read, and what an experience.
> 
> As shane said, the possibility of keeping gila's even the slim chance of a dwarf caimen etc would be as far as it goes for me, but this just highlights the need for said licence.
> 
> ...


I keep helodermas, both the gilas and beaded lizards. Believe me, you still have to be careful. Even though you'd have to be a complete twop to be bitten, they sometimes burry themselves in the substrate and suprise you when you least expect it, especially when trying to change their water or spot clean their vivarium. You have to be totally aware of what you are dealing with and head count prior to attending to husbandry needs. With the Herptek vivs, they also squeeze themselves under the front ledge where they can't be seen, another sod of a situation.


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## Jolio (Sep 8, 2009)

snakekeeper said:


> I keep helodermas, both the gilas and beaded lizards. Believe me, you still have to be careful. Even though you'd have to be a complete twop to be bitten, they sometimes burry themselves in the substrate and suprise you when you least expect it, especially when trying to change their water or spot clean their vivarium. You have to be totally aware of what you are dealing with and head count prior to attending to husbandry needs. With the Herptek vivs, they also squeeze themselves under the front ledge where they can't be seen, another sod of a situation.


 
thanks for the 'hands' on experience.

I was purly passing comment on what could be of interest to me within the DWA category, and not trying to be flipant and suggest that these were of any less of a danger.

I hope my post didnt come across like that, as it truly wasn't meant that way.


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

Jolio said:


> thanks for the 'hands' on experience.
> 
> I was purly passing comment on what could be of interest to me within the DWA category, and not trying to be flipant and suggest that these were of any less of a danger.
> 
> I hope my post didnt come across like that, as it truly wasn't meant that way.


No mate, I was just mentioning it as you weren't and aren't the only one who has mentioned gilas as a DWZ possibility as oppose to venomous snakes. There is a reason why they are DWA and if you were or are unlucky enough to be tagged you'd soon find it out.


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## Jolio (Sep 8, 2009)

snakekeeper said:


> No mate, I was just mentioning it as you weren't and aren't the only one who has mentioned gilas as a DWZ possibility as oppose to venomous snakes. There is a reason why they are DWA and if you were or are unlucky enough to be tagged you'd soon find it out.


Absolutely. i saw a documentary about them the other week, and a guy who was keeping them got tagged. I know he didnt die, but it sure wouldn't want to be something you'd do for kicks!

Isn't the venom/toxins used or found that it could be used for curing a illness - diabeties? 
Not that this generates the question 'i shall go find me a gila and cure this' scenario.


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## ex0tics (Jun 9, 2009)

this was very interesting, I'd definitely think twice.. or more :lol2:


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## caffers1982 (Jan 17, 2010)

OP that was brilliantly written and thought provoking. 

Given that it wasn't a story about a bite or a death it still gave me a little shiver at how terrible these animals are...

When I say terrible I mean like a lion: amazingly beautiful, aloof and deadly.

Excellen post


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

Awesome thread, have really enjoyed reading through it


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

And just to contrast, I've now had the opportunity to see the other side of the spectrum, DWAL reptile species with legs, on the same side of the glass as me.

Having had the chance to meet a few beaded lizards, I can say that there might yet be a licence for me someday - when we can arrange our lives around it a bit better and have a room that we can set out for the keeping of _Heloderma_.... 

No, they're not like beardies - and I'd want to spend time around them with someone who's willing to let me watch routine cage maintenance, since half an hour of observation doesn't a handler make, and it still might be "actually I don't want to take that risk" - but I can see similarities between them and things that I already know how to handle (tegus and stroppy dinky nile) that just weren't there for the _Bitis _species.

So... still haven't decided if I'm going down the DWA route, but I think I've got a better shape in my head of what I don't want, what I like, and it was quite nice to find out that _Heloderma _- which I've always liked - are still firmly on the list of possibles.


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## geckodelta (Dec 11, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> And just to contrast, I've now had the opportunity to see the other side of the spectrum, DWAL reptile species with legs, on the same side of the glass as me.
> 
> Having had the chance to meet a few beaded lizards, I can say that there might yet be a licence for me someday - when we can arrange our lives around it a bit better and have a room that we can set out for the keeping of _Heloderma_....
> 
> ...


I currently do not keep dwa's, But I can tell you how nice and refreshing it is to have someone as responsible as you, give an idea to people who want DWA'S the actual reality of owning one, Often when people consider getting a dwa they think that they can use a hook and some tongs and they are safe but your post has highlighted that you *WILL* have to handle your snakes at some point and you *DO* need the relavent experience :no1:


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> And just to contrast, I've now had the opportunity to see the other side of the spectrum, DWAL reptile species with legs, on the same side of the glass as me.
> 
> Having had the chance to meet a few beaded lizards, I can say that there might yet be a licence for me someday - when we can arrange our lives around it a bit better and have a room that we can set out for the keeping of _Heloderma_....
> 
> ...


 
There are more experienced guys with Heloderma than me My experience is with just Beadeds, but i would say if you have experience with handling monitors and the like then the reality is there isnt much more of a difference IMO. They are proberbly infact better to handle than a nile.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

leecb0 said:


> There are more experienced guys with Heloderma than me My experience is with just Beadeds, but i would say if you have experience with handling monitors and the like then the reality is there isnt much more of a difference IMO. They are proberbly infact better to handle than a nile.


They certainly LOOKED easier to manage than our Nile, but I wouldn't want to make assumptions based on "animal may be having a good day" and would want to see a Beaded/Gila in full wobbly mode too.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

Hay Ssthisto,
Congratulations with getting to see someone collection and great post!
I share the belief that if you can't safely restrain the animal (safely for yourself and the animal) you shouldn't have it. And with that in mind I'm also no where near ready. I've done ok restraining a nasty blood python with out getting bit.
But I couldn't get close to restraining the radiated rat you sold me with out getting bit. Not without using tongs or tubes anyway an I don't own any. 
I once got told if you can get a nasty and very fast wild caught snake, keep it alive treating it for anything that it might have being wc. Then treat it like it is venomous taking out the water bowl with tongs an cleaning it out safely ect.....
You might be OK keeping venomous.
But then that doesn't get you used to the gut wrenching feeling I can only imagine working with a deadly snake would feel like. 

Scott


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## snappingchap (Jul 31, 2010)

what you have to be aware of is, if you use trainer snakes and then put that kind of knowledge gained, dont bother, if you have an agressive snake that you think will learn you to hook etc then by all means have a go, goes without saying any experience is better than none at all. when the snake makes a dash for freedom and you grab it to restrain it, as will undoubtedly happen, please be aware that usung that very same instinct when handling hots can get you in serious trouble if you mis calculate.

there are a lot of very experiensed people on this forum, some are very private and wont allow visitors which i appreciate, i wont unless they are known to me, however there is still certainly no problem speaking to us all if we are in your area.

im sure the experience that was gained from the initial post here has paid dividends, its far better to actually attempt to see hots in action before jumping in feet first, im sure many hot keepers would gladly help where possible so that no people or animals were put in positions they were not comfortable in.


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## Lamprophis (Jun 12, 2008)

I personally don't like the term "trainer-snake" - I'm of the opinion that some snakes will behave similarly, venomous or non-venomous. For example.. the weight and the way you hook a blood python, will be similar to the way you would go about hooking a gaboon. 

Now I'm not saying it's the same.. but there are certain ways to prepare for the feel and weight of a snake like that. My personal opinion is that the more experience you have with a variety of a load of species, the more prepared you will be to work with more species (including venomous).


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Lamprophis said:


> I personally don't like the term "trainer-snake" - I'm of the opinion that some snakes will behave similarly, venomous or non-venomous. For example.. the weight and the way you hook a blood python, will be similar to the way you would go about hooking a gaboon.
> 
> Now I'm not saying it's the same.. but there are certain ways to prepare for the feel and weight of a snake like that. My personal opinion is that the more experience you have with a variety of a load of species, the more prepared you will be to work with more species (including venomous).


I don't wish to be rude, but I can only assume you've never hooked a large Bitis. To compare them to how bloods are on a hook is very naive, and certainly nothing someone who'd hooked both would do. They're roughly the same shape. There, all similarities stop. Even when both are sitting on the hook behaving in an exemplary fashion, they are worlds apart in how they feel and move.
What I agree with however is that you should get as much experience as possible with non-venomous before tackling venomous. Just don't expect every aspect of non-venomous handling to correspond to something in venomous handling.


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## Lamprophis (Jun 12, 2008)

terciopelo_dave said:


> I don't wish to be rude, but I can only assume you've never hooked a large Bitis. To compare them to how bloods are on a hook is very naive, and certainly nothing someone who'd hooked both would do. They're roughly the same shape. There, all similarities stop. Even when both are sitting on the hook behaving in an exemplary fashion, they are worlds apart in how they feel and move.
> What I agree with however is that you should get as much experience as possible with non-venomous before tackling venomous. Just don't expect every aspect of non-venomous handling to correspond to something in venomous handling.


No offence taken. Read my post again - "the weight.... and the way you would hook both species" are all I mentioned.......


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

terciopelo_dave said:


> I don't wish to be rude, but I can only assume you've never hooked a large Bitis. To compare them to how bloods are on a hook is very naive, and certainly nothing someone who'd hooked both would do. They're roughly the same shape. There, all similarities stop. Even when both are sitting on the hook behaving in an exemplary fashion, they are worlds apart in how they feel and move.
> What I agree with however is that you should get as much experience as possible with non-venomous before tackling venomous. Just don't expect every aspect of non-venomous handling to correspond to something in venomous handling.


Dave, please dont 'judge a book by its cover' so to speak, 'Lamprophis' (Matt Minchin), has several years of experience under his belt with venomous snakes. He's spent a lot of time with both mine and David N's collections, and owns the female Daboia russelii and i have here. He also owns one half of the Inland taipans here aswell. The reason his snakes are with me at the moment is because hes out in Australia for a year.

I personally fully agree with his comment about blood pythons and larger Bitis sp, its something we have discussed in the past, as the closest thing you can get to working with say, a large Gaboon viper, without it actually being one. But that is just something that's down to personal opinion, im not saying your wrong.

cheers,

Tom


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## Nightfirez (Sep 28, 2010)

hmm 

well what i know about DWA you could probably write on a postage stamp 

in fact most of my noggin you probably could write on 2 

but what i do like is coming down here for intelligent posts like these gives you a 

realistic perspective on all of them in general for me at least

:2thumb:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Azemiops said:


> Dave, please dont 'judge a book by its cover' so to speak, 'Lamprophis' (Matt Minchin), has several years of experience under his belt with venomous snakes. He's spent a lot of time with both mine and David N's collections, and owns the female Daboia russelii and i have here. He also owns one half of the Inland taipans here aswell. The reason his snakes are with me at the moment is because hes out in Australia for a year.
> 
> I personally fully agree with his comment about blood pythons and larger Bitis sp, its something we have discussed in the past, as the closest thing you can get to working with say, a large Gaboon viper, without it actually being one. But that is just something that's down to personal opinion, im not saying your wrong.
> 
> ...


Matt and Tom, my apologies. Had I known who Lamprophis was I wouldn't have been so quick to comment. I know Matt is experienced so please, no hard feelings. However, I stand by my statement. Weight of snake, agreed. But body dynamics, in my humble opinion, Bitis are nothing like bloods.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Matt and Tom, my apologies. Had I known who Lamprophis was I wouldn't have been so quick to comment. I know Matt is experienced so please, no hard feelings. However, I stand by my statement. Weight of snake, agreed. But body dynamics, in my humble opinion, Bitis are nothing like bloods.


Certainly no need to apologise Dave. I guess Matt's got to expect it, having 'Lamprophis' as his alias on here. : victory:


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

You can't take anybody serious, who allows cats to sleep on his posh collection of jerseys. But my cat loves mr. Curls-Minch'


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## Lamprophis (Jun 12, 2008)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Matt and Tom, my apologies. Had I known who Lamprophis was I wouldn't have been so quick to comment. I know Matt is experienced so please, no hard feelings. However, I stand by my statement. Weight of snake, agreed. But body dynamics, in my humble opinion, Bitis are nothing like bloods.


Hi dave, as tom said no need for apologies, it's all down to personal experiences and opinion, which makes forums a good place to discuss these things 
Matt


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

I agree with Matt here, I cannot think of a better snake than a Blood Python to hook in preperation for Gaboons
I also agree with TerciopeloDave that it only gives you an idea of the weight, but that is a start. It does not matter what snake you practise with, once you start "for real" on venomous, your mentality and attitude have to change, and that, along with your experiece of handling your "training snakes" will see you through.
Personally, I feel a lot easier handling a Gaboon than Toms big Blood:blush:
Cheers,
Brian.


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