# ambitious build!



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

Right, pondering a really ambitious live build!! I've posted in the reptile section but I just want to get some more opinions if its possible

Basically, I want to build a paludarium, build a custom background filled with live plants etc etc, lots of logs a ledge for basking and almost build a canopy over the water with a waterfall going through the middle of background, i'll use 2 filters to keep the water clean and 2 pumps for the waterfall. the pump tubes will be built into the back of the background. the background will also cover 1/2 of the sides of the viv. I'll try to grow moss on the background as well as lots of potted plants.

I'll use artificial vines built into the background stretching from one side of the paludarium to the other to create the canopy along with lots of cork bark and then lots of climbers to make a really thick canopy. Maybe two canopy's but im not too sure yet!

I'll build into the roof of the paludarium a UV tube in order for the plants to grow and two basking spots in different sides of the viv for the lizards. 

then to stop the lizards drowning I plan to have lots and lots of grape vines and lilly pads in the water as well as low level ledges built into the background. Also I will have gravel on the bottom of the paludarium and have some live water plants in their, although I realise this will make it difficult to keep the water crystal clear which is what I want. 

Now this is the bit im a little unsure about, the tank size im going for is this sort of size, 120x60x70

I want to keep a few lizards and in water keep small guppies or something of a similar size. I understand that maybe the guppies would end up getting eaten occasionally.

I'm trying to decide on what lizards to get, any ideas? so far ive come up with:

Tokays
Cresties (although humidity will probably be too high)
CWD
Day Geckos
Knight Anoles / small Anoles

I realise with the larger lizards i could not have many more than 2 of each but I was just wondering on what people thought and if its possible. Before you bite my head off I havent done much research on the above reptiles but I will be if you think its possible. 

Let me know what you think!!!:2thumb:

perhaps something like the below but with a canopy? 

2012 AGA Aquascaping Contest - Entry #388

this is the sort of thing im going for: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru.../955182-paludarium-brand-new-animal-free.html


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

tomkinsm said:


> I realise with the larger lizards i could not have many more than 2 *of each* but I was just wondering on what people thought and if its possible.


Do I assume from this that you would be intending to mix some/all of these species in the paludarium?

If so this is not a good idea......i'd give some specific examples, but simply the fact that you haven't owned these animals (I assume....from the need to research them, that you haven't done) except the Tokay in your sig, rules this out immediately. I am not against some mixes, however, I would only ever recommend it or someone who has owned the animals involved for a number of years and is extremely knowledgeable about creating the correct environments on their own, before attempting to create a mixed habitat.

The reasons for this are fairly simple, each species requires their own recreation of their natural habitat, and while on the surface some or even all of their requirements look the same, this is often not the case. And if it is the animals will compete for the same areas. 

Combine this with feeding competition, differing natural rhythms, humidity, temperature, lighting and space requirements, and it's an accident waiting to happen.

Also the size of your viv is not ideal for even some of these animals on their own, the height is not ideal for larger arboreal lizards, inparticular CWD's need something MUCH bigger, larger day geckos appreciate a 3 foot high viv, as do Tokays.

My advice, if you get this viv, put a decent size group of Anoles in there, and make it into a great display viv. If you're interested in the other species, research the hell out of them and then get the vivs for them accordingly.

Dave


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

I dont mean as in have tokays and anoles or tokays and day geckos all I mean is have 2 tokays and then guppies or 2 day geckos and then guppies


----------



## joe1981 (Dec 14, 2012)

Here is my reply to your other thread

UV Doesn't grow plants all it will do is burn them. You need to provide a different kind of light i use Arcadia Freshwater Pro tubes but you can try Lynx bulbs. Plenty more information in the Habitat section

Forget Crested Geckos mate they don't swim very well go with phibs, dart frogs would love something like that or maybe turtles. 

Other issues would be drainage for the plants this needs to be considered as no drainage will simply cause water to rot the roots.

Water in a Viv especially waterfalls is can be a nightmare it goes stagnant very quickly so it will need to be filtered and changed on a regular basis.


__________________


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Ah ok, well like I say, anoles will be happy to hang out above the water and are k with the height. By the time you've got your water level and substrate I doubt the height would be adequate for tokays or giant day geckos.......smaller day geckos would be suitable though, provided they're ok wth water. I wouldn't have a proboem putting my gold dust day geckos in a paludarium for example.

As for water changing/filtering......theres ways around this if you're serious about this, a sump tank and a canister filter will gve you a much greatef amount of water in the system and allow for easier filtering and water changes, as well as letting you do this without intefering with the viv.

Building pumps into the background is an invitation for future problems.

Lghting as above......I would advise that you research it, I use arcadia t5ho tubes, 1 uv and one tropical pro, above all my planted vivs.

The construction of a viv like this can be a real nightmare, take your time, spend what you need to, and ask as much advice as you need, you'll come out with something amazing 

Dave


----------



## joe1981 (Dec 14, 2012)

my_shed said:


> Lghting as above......I would advise that you research it, I use arcadia t5ho tubes, 1 uv and one tropical pro, above all my planted vivs.
> 
> Dave


What canopy do you use for you t5?


----------



## Moonmoth (Feb 4, 2013)

This sounds amazing if it goes to plan


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

my_shed said:


> Ah ok, well like I say, anoles will be happy to hang out above the water and are k with the height. By the time you've got your water level and substrate I doubt the height would be adequate for tokays or giant day geckos.......smaller day geckos would be suitable though, provided they're ok wth water. I wouldn't have a proboem putting my gold dust day geckos in a paludarium for example.
> 
> As for water changing/filtering......theres ways around this if you're serious about this, a sump tank and a canister filter will gve you a much greatef amount of water in the system and allow for easier filtering and water changes, as well as letting you do this without intefering with the viv.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dave, that sounds really good. I wouldnt build the pumps into the background, I'd have the tubes from the pump built into the background so they are hidden, the pumps would then sit in the water?

I think I am going to go with gold dusts, I'll start the research!!

I honestly never knew about the lighting, always thought it was just UV needed :hmm:

Could you give me a bit more info on the sump tank and canister filter please? 

Thanks for all your help :notworthy:

I'm certain its going to be a nightmare no matter how much I plan etc and the viv wont be ready for ages as all the plants will need to grow out to create the canopy before the reps can go in but it'll all be worth it!! I just hope it turns out how im picturing it!!


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

Also, may just use a large tall exo terra for the paludarium


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

This is basically exactly what I want to do!! but with a bigger waterfall and a bigger pool with vine roots coming out of the water!! (and no mist)

Waterfall Paludarium HD 1080p - YouTube


----------



## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

For.sump.tanks might be better to browse the fish.section... 

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

I may try a smaller viv to see how everything turns out? What do you think?


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

right ive gone ahead with attempting a smaller version of the planned build so I can prove to myself it is possible!!!

Basically what i've done so far is to build the pool for the waterfall out of polystyrene







in this picture I have gone over the sides of the poly with a serrated knife just so the sides are not completely smooth when grouting.

Ive also dug a hole in the side of the poly that I plan to use to plant a small climber


In this picture you can see where I have made a small hole in the back of the pool, this is for the tube to carry water up to the top of the waterfall from the main pool down below. (hope that makes sense!!)



and here just a little more detail


next is grouting and making sure the water falls the way I want it to!!!


----------



## joe1981 (Dec 14, 2012)

Grout and pond liner mate cheap as chips and guaranteed waterproof. I like the idea of practicing on a smaller project first.


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah couple of layers of grout then pond liner. I think where I may get a bit stuck is the pump for the waterfall, im planning to build this for a 45 x 45 x 45 I want a pump strong enough to make it from the bottom of the viv to the top but not so strong that water sprays everywhere! :hmm:


----------



## joe1981 (Dec 14, 2012)

tomkinsm said:


> Yeah couple of layers of grout then pond liner. I think where I may get a bit stuck is the pump for the waterfall, im planning to build this for a 45 x 45 x 45 I want a pump strong enough to make it from the bottom of the viv to the top but not so strong that water sprays everywhere! :hmm:


Some pumps come with adjustable outputs so you can effectively tune the flow to your requirements


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

Ahhh nice one.

Reckon an exo terra waterfall would work and I just take it apart?


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

*Grouting!!*





first very thin layer of grout applied, I mixed in some brown acrylic paint so that the grout has a greeny tinge to it to help with painting.





in these last two picture ive added some "stones" this is because I dont want the water to just pour off the edge, I want it to build up a small amount creating a small pool :idea: 

Let me know what you think!!


----------



## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

tomkinsm said:


> [URL=http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x429/tomkinsmjt/20130516_120627.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> [URL=http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x429/tomkinsmjt/20130516_120634.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> ...


Looking good..

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## joe1981 (Dec 14, 2012)

tomkinsm said:


> Ahhh nice one.
> 
> Reckon an exo terra waterfall would work and I just take it apart?


Don't see why not mate, i found the pump to be a real piece of garbage though but you can adjust the flow. Personally i would love for something a little better maybe a dedicated filter/pump combo.

Like the initial work on the waterfall though looks promising


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

I was thinking a filter like this in one corner

Interpet Internal Power Filter PF1 on Sale | Free UK Delivery | PetPlanet.co.uk

then the waterfall pump in the other?

or something like this but smaller

Titan TTB421PMP 20W ½" Clean Water Fountain Pump | Screwfix.com

and cut away the spray bit and replace with a plastic tube up to the top of the waterfall?


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

or this 

Underwater Filter by Fluval | Pets at Home

and attach tubing?


----------



## joe1981 (Dec 14, 2012)

tomkinsm said:


> or this
> 
> Underwater Filter by Fluval | Pets at Home
> 
> and attach tubing?


My choice would be a fluval unit but an external model to maximise space and make maintenance easier. I would ask the fish dudes they are super helpful


----------



## Scrimey (May 12, 2012)

Can't wait to see how this turns out : victory:


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

bit more detail done now on the waterfall /pool. I mixed green paint with the grout. Because its been such a nice day I got quite a few layers done! missed a few nooks and crannies that I'll do when I've got myself a smaller brush :bash::bash:


----------



## joe1981 (Dec 14, 2012)

Nice work so far :2thumb:


----------



## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

tomkinsm said:


> [URL=http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x429/tomkinsmjt/20130516_174852.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> [URL=http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x429/tomkinsmjt/20130516_174856.jpg]image[/URL]
> 
> ...


What's up with the twig?? 

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

vukic said:


> What's up with the twig??
> 
> Tiger
> 
> Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


Temporary handle I'd guess

Dave


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

The twig was a temporary handle that I was suspending it on while grouting!!


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

the holes are also to house some small plastic plants! :2thumb:


----------



## Sid85 (Dec 18, 2012)

Hi,

I’m not experience with this sort of build (and I’ve only had a brief read of all the information on this thread), but I have some experience with fish tanks. I was thinking about the filtration/pumps. 

How much water are you planning on having – in terms of volume of water and water depth?

I don’t think internal filters (like the Interpet one you linked above) will be what you want. First, they sit in the water (and take up space), second they stand upright and will probably need at least 20cm of water depth, and third you still have to get water to the top of the waterfall so will need a pump too.

Filter options that would minimise equipment in the water include:
- Hang on the back filters (although I cant really see how you could get a HoB inside a paludarium) – these filters are often used for fresh water tanks, but I have always found them to be lacking. 
- External filters – an external canister that takes water out of the ‘tank’ through the canister and back into the tank. This would be good because you wouldn’t need an additional pump – you take water out of the pool and put it back at the top of the waterfall.
Good makes include Ehiem, Tetratech and Fluval although they can be expensive. I have a tetratech Ex600 on my 60litre planted cube and it has been excellent (and has adjustable flow). This may be somewhat overkill if you don’t have a large volume of water.
- A sump tank – often used in Marine set-ups. Water leaves the display tank – usually via an overflow – into a separate tank where filtration and other equipment is housed, before a return pump sends the water back to the display. This would be easily customisable, and increase water volume plus hide all equipment, but may take some drilling of the tank. 
I have not ever used a sump, so can’t really advise much more and again, may be overkill on a small volume of water.

How are you planning on heating the water? With a sump you can put a heater in there. Also you could think about an inline heater if you were going with an external filter.

Have you thought about dividing the tank between water and land – by silicon’ing glass uprights across the bottom so that the water does not flood the whole bottom of the tank?

Most of my suggestions are assuming a reasonably large amount of water – and may not be appropriate for just a small pool. Sorry if you have covered all this – and feel free to ignore it if it’s not helpful.

Looking forward to seeing this progress – love the polystyrene waterfall already.

Sid


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

Sid85 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I’m not experience with this sort of build (and I’ve only had a brief read of all the information on this thread), but I have some experience with fish tanks. I was thinking about the filtration/pumps.
> 
> ...


Hi Thanks for your comments! Basically its about 20cm water depth and I have been doing a bit of research and been to a few aquatic centers, and I had a look at these bad boys 

Aqua One Maxi Internal Filter 400 Litres Per Hour | All-In-One Garden Centre

it basically fits all my needs and I can attach a tube to the pump bit of the filter that will take the water from the bottom of the exo terra to the top. Im not too worried about it taking up space as Ive seen them and they are fairly compact.

Basically I plan to fill all of the bottom section of the exo terra with water (everything below the doors)



Sid85 said:


> How are you planning on heating the water? With a sump you can put a heater in there. Also you could think about an inline heater if you were going with an external filter.
> 
> Have you thought about dividing the tank between water and land – by silicon’ing glass uprights across the bottom so that the water does not flood the whole bottom of the tank?


I think I'll have to heat the water with one of the aquarium heater tube thingys and I want the whole bottom to be flooded :2thumb:



Sid85 said:


> Most of my suggestions are assuming a reasonably large amount of water – and may not be appropriate for just a small pool. Sorry if you have covered all this – and feel free to ignore it if it’s not helpful.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing this progress – love the polystyrene waterfall already.
> 
> Sid


At the moment I plan to do this on a small scale with small pump/filter and a small amount of water, however if all goes to plan and its successful I will have to look into external filters and a sump tank I think. What you've covered is stuff im really trying to get my head round and if I do it on a large scale im going to have to do things very differently and I will come knocking for your expertise!! 

Thanks for the comments, Mike


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

Updates!!! 

Right I've tried to paint some details onto the waterfall.

I know the bluey green in the pool looks a bit :censor: but when the waters in there it wont look as bad.

next step is using non toxic varnish to make it waterproof

you can see where the stick was, its made holes for the plants.


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

(the white bit of poly underneath is just to stop the waterfall falling forwards)


----------



## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd seriously consider grouting more thoroughly before sealing. Unless your planning on a heavy coating of pond sealer, aquarium sealant or epoxy I'd imagine you'll develop leaks as there appears to be quite a few gaps in the grout?


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Sid85 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I’m not experience with this sort of build (and I’ve only had a brief read of all the information on this thread), but I have some experience with fish tanks. I was thinking about the filtration/pumps.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking along similar lines......meant to get back on here sooner and clarify my earlier points. One point I think that does need clarifying, is that you point out your options are based around experience with larger bodies of water and that a smaller amount may not need such extensive filtering, in fact the reverse is true. A larger body of water may need a physically bigger filter, but the water quality will remain constant for a lot longer than a smaller body of water, as a small body of water will foul very quickly. Therefore good filtration is actually more important in a few gallons like this, rather than in a 75 gallon body of water. (Of course the inhabitants needs are of the utmost importance, and affect water quality too, a couple cresties with a 75 Gallon water feature will be good for a while........50 fish and the water may need a lot more filtering!)





tomkinsm said:


> Hi Thanks for your comments! Basically its about 20cm water depth and I have been doing a bit of research and been to a few aquatic centers, and I had a look at these bad boys
> 
> Aqua One Maxi Internal Filter 400 Litres Per Hour | All-In-One Garden Centre
> 
> ...


 
For a small amount of water such as this, I would recommend a sump, or at least a canister filter, mainly to increase the water volume (see above). Bacteria, nitrate and ammonia build up in a small amount of water will be very rapid, and could prove harmful to your pet very quickly.

I understand this is only a trial run, but you may want to consider that doing a mini version of exactly what you want to do with the big one will allow you to prepare for the issues you'll face doing the big one. If you do this one and then do the next one totally differently, you'll have no idea of the pitfalls that await you and will likely fall into them!

Just a little advice........from someone whos made every viv differently, and made different mistakes on each and *every *one.

Dave


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

tomcannon said:


> I'd seriously consider grouting more thoroughly before sealing. Unless your planning on a heavy coating of pond sealer, aquarium sealant or epoxy I'd imagine you'll develop leaks as there appears to be quite a few gaps in the grout?


Im going to go for extensive varnishing and if it leaks when I trial it then regrout

It also looks like theres a lot more gaps than there actually is because I couldnt paint all of the tiny little gaps


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

my_shed said:


> I'm thinking along similar lines......meant to get back on here sooner and clarify my earlier points. One point I think that does need clarifying, is that you point out your options are based around experience with larger bodies of water and that a smaller amount may not need such extensive filtering, in fact the reverse is true. A larger body of water may need a physically bigger filter, but the water quality will remain constant for a lot longer than a smaller body of water, as a small body of water will foul very quickly. Therefore good filtration is actually more important in a few gallons like this, rather than in a 75 gallon body of water. (Of course the inhabitants needs are of the utmost importance, and affect water quality too, a couple cresties with a 75 Gallon water feature will be good for a while........50 fish and the water may need a lot more filtering!)
> 
> For a small amount of water such as this, I would recommend a sump, or at least a canister filter, mainly to increase the water volume (see above). Bacteria, nitrate and ammonia build up in a small amount of water will be very rapid, and could prove harmful to your pet very quickly.
> 
> ...


Could I use a sump internally or are they simply too large?


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

ignore sump I meant a canister ^ :bash:


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

something like this does actually seem ideal!!

Vivariums, Reptile Supplies & Live Food | Swell Reptiles

Its just a shame its external, I was really hoping to try to keep everything nice and compact.

I may trial this for a while then trial the internal filter. I could use two internal filters? I appreciate it would reduce the space in the water but I wont be keeping fish in the trail tank.

(I think a canister or a sump is the way to go though)

thoughts?


----------



## Atticus22 (Apr 23, 2007)

Hi mate, dont know if youve seen this thread:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...reen-tree-python-paludarium.html#post10334159

I made something kind of similar to what it sounds like youre trying to attempt, so thought it may come in handy  I learnt a LOT while constructing mine and did a hell of a lot of research, so feel free to ask any questions if you have any


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Internal filters are extremely limited in their effectiveness, and as I said a small body of water foul up more quickly, the filter will cycle that small amount of water quickly and need refreshing quickly. Not a big deal, except you'll need regular access to the filters, and you'll need to do water changes often, probably once or twice a week. A canister will make this all easier, as draining the system is as easy as putting a tap in line on your tanks outflow pipe, and cleaning the filter is easy too. Not only this but it will increase the overall amount of water. A sump is the ultimate, it seems extreme but will be the best approach overall, without question.


Now for your trial viv you may stick to the internal pump/filters.....it depends if you want it to be a functional viv for a while, or is it just a way of trying out various methods? If the former, get a canister, if the latter, get an intenal, mess around and have fun, maybe keep a pet in there, but I wouldn't plan for it to be a long term home for it, at least not with the waterfall working.

Dave


----------



## Sid85 (Dec 18, 2012)

I agree with Dave. A smaller body of water will be less stable - and will foul-up quicker. It will take a lot more maintanence.

If you're looking at less than 50 litres of water then I think that 2 or more water changes per week will be needed. And you may need more, especially when it's new and also depending on the waste going in. 

If keeping fish in the water and lizards above water that could be 2 sets of waste going into the water.

The internal one can work - but will take lots more effort. The external filter that you linked looks good.

The waterfall is looking excellent.

Sid


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

Atticus22 said:


> Hi mate, dont know if youve seen this thread:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...reen-tree-python-paludarium.html#post10334159
> 
> I made something kind of similar to what it sounds like youre trying to attempt, so thought it may come in handy  I learnt a LOT while constructing mine and did a hell of a lot of research, so feel free to ask any questions if you have any


THAT IS AMAZING

Ive got so many questions for you so I think a pm is probably best!!


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

thats after two layers of sealent, the pictures are crap quality and really dark i'll take some later but my phones battery was dying so couldnt use flash!


----------



## tomkinsm (Dec 3, 2010)

my_shed said:


> Internal filters are extremely limited in their effectiveness, and as I said a small body of water foul up more quickly, the filter will cycle that small amount of water quickly and need refreshing quickly. Not a big deal, except you'll need regular access to the filters, and you'll need to do water changes often, probably once or twice a week. A canister will make this all easier, as draining the system is as easy as putting a tap in line on your tanks outflow pipe, and cleaning the filter is easy too. Not only this but it will increase the overall amount of water. A sump is the ultimate, it seems extreme but will be the best approach overall, without question.
> 
> Now for your trial viv you may stick to the internal pump/filters.....it depends if you want it to be a functional viv for a while, or is it just a way of trying out various methods? If the former, get a canister, if the latter, get an intenal, mess around and have fun, maybe keep a pet in there, but I wouldn't plan for it to be a long term home for it, at least not with the waterfall working.
> 
> Dave


Im not too worried about changing the water etc but just from a bit of research and yours and some others advise when I do this for real its going to have to be the sump way or no way. but for the trial I think I'll start with a cannister then try internal filters and see the difference etc etc I must say after seeing the other thread similar to what im doing the fact that theres no filter in sight makes a real difference.

I guess a canister is almost a smaller version of the sump?

for this trial though I think im going to try and experiment as much as I can. I wont keep anything in there until im completely happy.


----------

