# new laws on reptile shows



## jav07 (Apr 20, 2006)

new laws that past today regarding reptile shows
http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2006/061010a.htm


----------



## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

its only a porposal at this point, although it will be in by next year at some oiint., just means we will all have to just to private sales only then eh.


----------



## crosby (Jun 6, 2006)

cornmorphs said:


> its only a porposal at this point, although it will be in by next year at some *oiint., just means we will all have to just to private sales only then eh*.


I think I know what you mean but are you tired or just had a couple drinks :lol:


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

> *As before, pet fairs that do not involve the sale of animals, or that do involve the sale of animals but not in the course of a business, can continue without the need for a licence*


i would say that the private breeders meetings would therefore be OK as they aren't run in the course of business rather people selling excess reptiles they have bred themselves. To be perfectly honest if the last Doncaster show was anything to go by we wouldn't be missing much anyway but it would be a shame nonetheless.


----------



## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

I heard that the Doncaster show was the best in years, was it not then....


----------



## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i know its not good for the hobby, but for breeders it wont make much difference, for buyers it will be a nightmare.


----------



## mark67123 (Jun 11, 2006)

Maybe I'm reading it wrong - but to me it looks like actual breeders wouldn't be allowed to sell (as a breeder could be seen as a business) whereas non-breeders (amateurs if you like) could buy and sell all they want. 

And would the 'private' breeeders meetings really now have to be private if animals were to be sold? I.e. not advertised publicly in any way?

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick, but this looks more like something put in place to silence the animal welfare lot, rather than an actual, enforceable law.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

I still have my man looking at all this, but as far as I understand it, breeders will be ok as they are selling thier own animals. I belive the 'business' aspect related to those who buy and sell animals, such as those who get shed loads of WC animals imported.

I do However belive that all breeders should be licenced, much like the current petshop system, but as a seperate entity.

I further belive that these licences should be produced when taking a table at a show.

In addition, I belive that ALL shows involving animals that need anything other than basic care should be 'member only' shows, and thay all reptile keepers should be a member of one society or another.

My 2 pennies worth, sure there are those who disagree !


----------



## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

it wont affect most sellers anyway, but it will affect the buyers.
people, breeders, will still sell... its just going to be harder for newbies to start up and find contacts.


----------



## mark67123 (Jun 11, 2006)

Do you mean it will affect buyers in that there'll be no public shows anymore? All shows would have to be members only?

If that's the case then could the entrance fee to a public show simply be termed a "day membership" for the host club/society? In much the same way as you can go fishing on a privately run fishery by buying a day-ticket, instead of a full yearly membership.


----------



## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> I still have my man looking at all this, but as far as I understand it, breeders will be ok as they are selling thier own animals. I belive the 'business' aspect related to those who buy and sell animals, such as those who get shed loads of WC animals imported.
> 
> I do However belive that all breeders should be licenced, much like the current petshop system, but as a seperate entity.
> 
> ...


I agree with you! Hopefully this will put a spanner in the works for the wild bird trade too.


----------



## asnakecalled? (Apr 9, 2006)

ok ive just read the new law and i think its a good idea, hopefully it will put a stop to people that breed animals to make as much money as posible and not care for the animals welfare, and give people a chance that breed animals because they love the animals and want to pass there nolage on to other people that care for the animals welfare


----------



## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

there will always be ways around these things


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Corn is right, always ways around things, and its not law yet.

Just agood thing we have the likes of IHS and FBH on our side, or reptiles would be outlawed altogether....

... another good reason to join one of them !


----------



## Jack13 (Nov 30, 2005)

so does this mean no more shows like hamm and stuff? i was kinda looking forward to going to some when i got back.


----------



## crosby (Jun 6, 2006)

We attended our first show in July which was the one held in Barking. Before attending this show I had already purchased on the net from a dealer, but not received, two Leos. I had also done some quite extensive reading and bugged a lot of people of this forum and others with questions. My viv was already purchased and I had tested the kit out so was happy there. That's the background now to the point.

Whilst looking round the show we saw a leo we liked and decided to buy it. Not once did the seller ask us if we knew how long they lived, what they eat, how to care for it, temps etc etc. My wife was also looking at a hatchling corn, whilst we were discussing it together and saying things like, we don't have a tank, or no anything about them all the seller was saying was "their easy to keep...you can have this plastic box it's in" trying to make a sale. Again no mention of temps, longevity etc.

With the Corn we left it until we could find out more information and I'm glad we did, but how many people turn up at these shows and just buy something because their kids want it and have no idea how to look after it. I must have seen over a hundred people walking around with purchases and a lot of them were families with excited looking kids.

In my limited experience of these shows it does seem that the sellers should make more of an effort to ensure that the people buy their reps know how to look after them.

Just making sure that the buyers are members of a society isn't enough and I doubt this would work, I was not and am still not a member of a society and do not see a reason for me to join one.

We did also talk to one seller at the some who was happy to just answer our questions on corns and made no effort to try and make a sell.


----------



## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i answer questions all day long when people come round, i also get at least 8/9 random questions pr day from people that i never hear from again.


----------



## crosby (Jun 6, 2006)

cornmorphs said:


> i answer questions all day long when people come round, i also get at least 8/9 random questions pr day from people that i never hear from again.


And I'm sure that 99% of the sellers at shows would say the same, they will all happily answer questions when asked. My point is more based around ensuring that the seller ensures the buyer knows what they are doing and how to care for the rep if they do not ask any questions.


----------



## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

i generally do, but yes i know a few just want to sell the animal rather thn teach.


----------



## Lostcorn (Dec 12, 2005)

*Meetings*



andyj5447 said:


> > *As before, pet fairs that do not involve the sale of animals, or that do involve the sale of animals but not in the course of a business, can continue without the need for a licence*
> 
> 
> i would say that the private breeders meetings would therefore be OK as they aren't run in the course of business rather people selling excess reptiles they have bred themselves.muc To be perfectly honest if the last Doncaster show was anything to go by we wouldn't be missing h anyway but it would be a shame nonetheless.


Hi

just to say that we attended the Doncaster show on 8th Oct and found it 
to be worthwhile and I would certainly miss it.
It is the only show within 100 miles of where I live apart from The one in November at Rodbaston college.
Sorry to hear that you thought it was a waste of time but I dont think everyone feels the same

John


----------



## jav07 (Apr 20, 2006)

nicely said john
looks like doncaster will be safe for now :lol:


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Well, I dont know about single examples, but I belive this is the distinction between a seller and a breeder.

Being a breeder, I spend hours talking to people about geckos. At the barking show, I spent 15 mins talking to a couple about thier sick leo at home, even though they had just brought another from someone else at the show.

I spend a lot of time within my own society, esras (www.esras.org) helping and giving advice.

My understanding is most breeders do the same, we dont want the little babies we produce to go to bad homes or with those who dont know how to keep them. 

Thats why I belive we breeders should be licenced and only licenced breeders permmited to show at these events

I am sorry you had a bad experiance, but it was (and is) one of the conditions of show, that any person selling has available good clear caresheets for all the species they have on offer and takes steps to ensure any prospective purchaser fully understands the commitment they are about to take on.

I have in the past found myself talking people out of buying from me simply because they dont understand whats involved.


----------



## thedee (Mar 11, 2006)

*Re: Meetings*

where abouts is the Rodcaston College show in November


----------



## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

crosby said:


> We attended our first show in July which was the one held in Barking. Before attending this show I had already purchased on the net from a dealer, but not received, two Leos. I had also done some quite extensive reading and bugged a lot of people of this forum and others with questions. My viv was already purchased and I had tested the kit out so was happy there. That's the background now to the point.
> 
> Whilst looking round the show we saw a leo we liked and decided to buy it. Not once did the seller ask us if we knew how long they lived, what they eat, how to care for it, temps etc etc. My wife was also looking at a hatchling corn, whilst we were discussing it together and saying things like, we don't have a tank, or no anything about them all the seller was saying was "their easy to keep...you can have this plastic box it's in" trying to make a sale. Again no mention of temps, longevity etc.
> 
> ...


This is why Care sheets MUST be provided at all shows for ALL of the animals on sale, This is one rule that every show organiser puts in their show rules that are sent to all table holders prior to the show, i have a care sheet for every animal i keep whether i keep or breed to sell them, i also give no end of totally free and un biased advice, sometimes advising a different species for a novice on for someone who is totally new to the hobby>


----------

