# entire male jack russell or chihuahua wanted to stud



## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

i need a very small jack russell or a chihuahua, pos a manchester terrier, will consider any very small breed. to breed with my very small jack russell. please pm me


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

and before anyone starts...... i am keeping at least 1 puppy and family members are having the rest. this is not being done for money. its for the love of my dog.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

Don't you think there are enough unwanted pets out there looking for homes without you adding to the problem??

ETA: For the LOVE of your dog???? Get real!!


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

Ragmoth said:


> Don't you think there are enough unwanted pets out there looking for homes without you adding to the problem??
> 
> ETA: For the LOVE of your dog???? Get real!!


chances are she will have 2-3 pups max, so get off my thread...... and i will keep them.


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

*dog needs to be same size or smaller*


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## Tomcat (Jul 29, 2007)

Surely it cant be for the love of your dog, as of the risk it causes her :S

BUT, type in stud dogs in google and alot come up!


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## dax (Aug 11, 2008)

i think if you have thought things through properly then its fine to breed your dog. I bred mine last year for the first time and had deposits on all pups when they were a week old! I would have kept them without a shadow of doubt if i didnt like the people they were going to. My oh would have kept them all anyhow i think! 

Remember, there yours for 12 weeks and they DO wreck your house, poo everywhere and whine in the middle of the night! not to mention the toe biting!!!!!!


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

Tomcat said:


> Surely it cant be for the love of your dog, as of the risk it causes her :S
> 
> BUT, type in stud dogs in google and alot come up!



it is actually healthy for a bitch to have at least 1 litter of pups. i have worked with dogs for over 13 years. i'm not just wanting to make a quick few quid. :bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

dax said:


> i think if you have thought things through properly then its fine to breed your dog. I bred mine last year for the first time and had deposits on all pups when they were a week old! I would have kept them without a shadow of doubt if i didnt like the people they were going to. My oh would have kept them all anyhow i think!
> 
> Remember, there yours for 12 weeks and they DO wreck your house, poo everywhere and whine in the middle of the night! not to mention the toe biting!!!!!!


been there done that, got years experiance with show, breeding, boarding and RESCUE!!!!!!


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## Tomcat (Jul 29, 2007)

Doesnt mean it cant harm her! Bitches do die due to it!


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

OMG these posts with the dont you think there is enough in the pounDS im sick of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

even if no one breed there dogs, there will always be a dog in a pound for one reason or another, no body has the right to rant at some one because they want to breed there dog because the dogs got an amazing temperament, amazing lines seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

rant over...


you tried in the local papers, or pet shops?


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## dax (Aug 11, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> it is actually healthy for a bitch to have at least 1 litter of pups. i have worked with dogs for over 13 years. i'm not just wanting to make a quick few quid. :bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


 
very true, people say its a myth but i have found it to be true and can reduce problems in the future. our female was a cow :lol2: but since she had the babies she has calmed so much! The vet couldnt see any reason not to breed her at all. I to have worked with animals for a long time and if its thought through properly and you can afford the vet check ups etc then i see no problem.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> been there done that, got years experiance with show, breeding, boarding and RESCUE!!!!!!


Well if that's the case then you should have plenty of contacts!


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

Tomcat said:


> Doesnt mean it cant harm her! Bitches do die due to it!


so do humans but we still pop the brats out! :bash:

NUFF of them in orphanages, maby we should stop having sex to prevent that :whip: MEH


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## dax (Aug 11, 2008)

just to add, she will be done this year tho. there are a lot of dogs in the pound (most of them now live in my house i think!) but, seriously,you have to be strict about selection process, we only sold our babies to familes, we didnt want them for working dogs, just because one of our rescues came from working back ground and simply "wasnt needed anymore" :bash:


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Anything can die from being pregnant...Tbh I think the OP has had enough lecturing lol.


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## dax (Aug 11, 2008)

Nebbz said:


> so do humans but we still pop the brats out! :bash:
> 
> NUFF of them in orphanages, maby we should stop having sex to prevent that :whip: MEH


 
indeed!!!!!!!!!


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

...A lot has happend since I first clicked 'post a comment'.:lol2:


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

Nebbz said:


> OMG these posts with the dont you think there is enough in the pounDS im sick of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> even if no one breed there dogs, there will always be a dog in a pound for one reason or another, no body has the right to rant at some one because they want to breed there dog because the dogs got an amazing temperament, amazing lines seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> yeah, but cant find anything small enough. smaller the better. as this then also reduces problems with pups heads getting stuck etc etc


thats the only problem maby breed her with another jack russel! shes gorgeous btw!!!...bound to be a jack russel website, theres one for staffies!


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

Ragmoth said:


> Well if that's the case then you should have plenty of contacts!


yeah all large breeds, setters, labs cockers......


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

So does anyone have a small dog? I can borrow?


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

only got a staffie sorry  he would squish yours :lol2:


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

on the note of this maybe people should stop breeding there beardies and reps then, cos there starting to stack up in rescues.........


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## Victictay (Jul 4, 2008)

You could have my Butch, seeing as it seems he has been bred before i got him, hence the scenting everywhere and I would love to take on a son or daughter of his but he is standard size so about 5-6lbs so prob too big


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> it is actually healthy for a bitch to have at least 1 litter of pups. i have worked with dogs for over 13 years. i'm not just wanting to make a quick few quid. :bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:



This is a myth. Bitches die every day giving birth.
Why the vast variety in choice of potential "stud dog"? Chis are a world apart from JRT in terms of temperament, coat, size etc etc


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

I think the determining factor is size. Pip (OP's dog) is tiny, so rather than limit herself even more she wants to find a small dog, any breed. She wont just find first dog and be happy with it, she's got high standards and Pip's her little baby.


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## Dirtydozen (Feb 7, 2007)

how old is ur dog?

what health checks has she had?

plus many more questions i would want answerin if i was to let u use my dog. (which i wouldnt)

normally u have to pay a stud fee or a puppy in return for the stud.

if ur bitch is little she many have to have a c secton

also when my mum had litters she put her bitch on anitbiotics (cant remember how long for however) to clean up any infections this was a must with the stud owners and wanted proof that she had been on them to clear any infections that could be passed from the bitch to the stud dog.

r u going to have an ovulation test done?


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> This is a myth. Bitches die every day giving birth.
> Why the vast variety in choice of potential "stud dog"? Chis are a world apart from JRT in terms of temperament, coat, size etc etc


 
I agree entirely. Breeding is a huge risk to a bitches life. Thsi details some of the risks of breeding: 

So you want to be a breeder?

I must say I love the title of this thread 'entire male jack russell or chihuaha wanted to stud' How on earth is a dog that isn't entire going o be used at stud? :lol2:


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i`ve seen lots of chi x jrt puppies for sale, they are very popular.

have a look at www.epupz.co.uk theres lots of small stud dogs on there, (i only know people with chi`s )


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

thankyou for your help everyone! much appreciated. got a nice male sorted now!!! much appreciated :bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Lol some people have alot to say about this dont they:whistling2:, people just jump to the conclusion you dunno what your on about :bash:

Im glad youve found a stud! :no1: What is he? Cant wait to come see little Pip babies and beg James for one :lol2:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

James_and_Hana said:


> Lol some people have alot to say about this dont they:whistling2:, people just jump to the conclusion you dunno what your on about :bash:
> 
> Im glad youve found a stud! :no1: What is he? Cant wait to come see little Pip babies and beg James for one :lol2:


I think the phrase that went something like 'having one litter is actually good for a bitch' gave a huge clue the OP doesn't know what they are on about. 

People do have a lot to say about it, and so they should. 23,000 plus dogs put to sleep in the UK last year. Almost all bred by back street breeders and puppy farmers. So, anyone breeding should have a VERY good reason to do so, and be aware that they may well be contributing to that.


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Everyone had a different opinion to whether somethings good for an animal or will cause more harm than good. Charl has alot of experience with dogs as she's already said, it isnt a "oh lets my dog so we can have cute puppys" case. If breeding a bitch is bad for it then maybe dogs shouldnt be bred at all and they could become extinct? at least there wouldnt be any in shelters. Same goes for all animals then I guess?


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I always find it strange that some of the same people who slate people for breeding dogs/cats/rabbits etc breed and sell reptiles , risking their lives (egg binding , dieing during birth in the case of live bearers, infection and so on)................

Slightly hypocritical in my opinion


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

wohic said:


> I always find it strange that some of the same people who slate people for breeding dogs/cats/rabbits etc breed and sell reptiles , risking their lives (egg binding , dieing during birth in the case of live bearers, infection and so on)................
> 
> Slightly hypocritical in my opinion


you took the words right out of my mouth. also i agree with the fact there are so many dogs in rescue, but also i get beardies, snakes, geckos dumped on me because there UNWANTED!!!!! :bash:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

wohic said:


> I always find it strange that some of the same people who slate people for breeding dogs/cats/rabbits etc breed and sell reptiles , risking their lives (egg binding , dieing during birth in the case of live bearers, infection and so on)................
> 
> Slightly hypocritical in my opinion


I don't think anyone is slating breeding dogs, just the irresponsible breeding of dogs.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

i love jack russells. i miss my wee guy.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

chalottej1983 said:


> you took the words right out of my mouth. also i agree with the fact there are so many dogs in rescue, but also i get beardies, snakes, geckos dumped on me because there UNWANTED!!!!! :bash:


So, why not get a crossbreed from rescue? Chances are your puppies will turn out nothing like their Mum anyway. 

I'd be interested if you could explain what you feel the benefits of having a litter are to a bitch? It might enlighten some of us.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Ive got a lovely Jack Russel x Corgi  but you cant have him :2thumb:.


Hope you plans work out :d na dhope to see picture in the future


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

midori said:


> So, why not get a crossbreed from rescue? Chances are your puppies will turn out nothing like their Mum anyway.
> 
> I'd be interested if you could explain what you feel the benefits of having a litter are to a bitch? It might enlighten some of us.



I have fostered well over 100 dogs, however it is always advised to see a pups parents when looking for a family pet, this is nearly always impossible at a rescue home as the pupss are almost always second hand, so although getting a dog from a rescue home is fantastic, its not the right decision for everyone.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

wohic said:


> I have fostered well over 100 dogs, however it is always advised to see a pups parents when looking for a family pet, this is nearly always impossible at a rescue home as the pupss are almost always second hand, so although getting a dog from a rescue home is fantastic, its not the right decision for everyone.


You're right, it isn't. But I wonder how many of those 100 plus dogs you fostered were 'collateral' from people who wanted to breed from their bitch because they wanted a pup just like her, or with her temprement, or because they loved her so very much? 

In our breed rescue, virtually none of the dogs that 'come through' are responsibly bred by reputable breeders.


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

midori said:


> So, why not get a crossbreed from rescue? Chances are your puppies will turn out nothing like their Mum anyway.
> 
> I'd be interested if you could explain what you feel the benefits of having a litter are to a bitch? It might enlighten some of us.





midori said:


> You're right, it isn't. But I wonder how many of those 100 plus dogs you fostered were 'collateral' from people who wanted to breed from their bitch because they wanted a pup just like her, or with her temprement, or because they loved her so very much?
> 
> In our breed rescue, virtually none of the dogs that 'come through' are responsibly bred by reputable breeders.


your point being???


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> it is actually healthy for a bitch to have at least 1 litter of pups. i have worked with dogs for over 13 years. i'm not just wanting to make a quick few quid. :bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


 That statement shows that working with dogs for 13 years has taught you nothing. It is not healthy for a bitch to have a litter. There is a greater risk in a small bitch of her having a ceasarian for a start. Then there is a risk of something going wrong in the pregnancy and of course unspayed bitches have more risk of developing pyometra and mammary cancer.
You want a litter of pups, that's one thing but don't be using her health as an excuse.
So be honest about just wanting to breed and be honest about wanting to make a few quid. I'd have more respect if you were honest.
How old is your bitch and how many seasons has she had so far? Presumably you are willing to pay a stud fee?


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

(?) said:


> I think the phrase that went something like 'having one litter is actually good for a bitch' gave a huge clue the OP doesn't know what they are on about.
> 
> People do have a lot to say about it, and so they should. 23,000 plus dogs put to sleep in the UK last year. Almost all bred by back street breeders and puppy farmers. So, anyone breeding should have a VERY good reason to do so, and be aware that they may well be contributing to that.


soooo... 23000 dogs being pts a year but its still fine for breeders with 'pedigree' dogs to churn them out? if its that big a problem, surely they should be backing off too. esp when every argument you hear says how mongrels are much healthier than purebreds.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

midori said:


> You're right, it isn't. But I wonder how many of those 100 plus dogs you fostered were 'collateral' from people who wanted to breed from their bitch because they wanted a pup just like her, or with her temprement, or because they loved her so very much?
> 
> In our breed rescue, virtually none of the dogs that 'come through' are responsibly bred by reputable breeders.


quite a lot were actually ex brood bitches from wales, we would go up om the 7th day (just before the vet arrived) and take home what we could, we have also had dozens of huntington life science Beagles to place.
yes seeing the amount of dogs in rescue is disheartening, how ever the family that decides to breed once are not the cause, its the big breeders churning out pup after pup for money that cause this....... I went to a dogs home the other day and i swear two thirds were stafffys, pocket dogs are very rarely seen as small dogs tend to stay with their owners for life.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fraggle said:


> soooo... 23000 dogs being pts a year but its still fine for breeders with 'pedigree' dogs to churn them out? if its that big a problem, surely they should be backing off too. esp when every argument you hear says how mongrels are much healthier than purebreds.


 
The responsible breeders of pedigree dogs breed very rarely anyway. I know one person who has been a 'breeder' for 20 years, and has only bred three litters. Each time when she wanted a puppy for herself, to show and carry on her bloodline, and each time she had a large wating list. One person waited four years as they wanted a bitch of that particular line. Most breeders I know breed evry 3-5 years, and onlyif they have a waiting list. 

There is no evidence that mongrels are healthier than pedigrees. If you are talking about supposed 'hybrid vigour' (which is scientifically debatable anyway, as crossbred dogs aren't true hybrids and it might not even exist) then that is only 'valid' for a first cross.


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> That statement shows that working with dogs for 13 years has taught you nothing. It is not healthy for a bitch to have a litter. There is a greater risk in a small bitch of her having a ceasarian for a start. Then there is a risk of something going wrong in the pregnancy and of course unspayed bitches have more risk of developing pyometra and mammary cancer.
> You want a litter of pups, that's one thing but don't be using her health as an excuse.
> So be honest about just wanting to breed and be honest about wanting to make a few quid. I'd have more respect if you were honest.
> How old is your bitch and how many seasons has she had so far? Presumably you are willing to pay a stud fee?


money is not a issue, far from it. everyone has a different oppinion, she is 4 yrs old, has 2 seasons a year. i put the title as entire and stud for the less doggy people, i'm not after a experianced stud as such, just a healthy well temp small male. wether he be a family pet or whatever. i am willing to pay stud fee's if need be. 
yeah the 1 litter is good bit has mixed views,which again, everyone is entitled to there oppinion. but That is not why i am breeding her.i do not intened to make money from her pups, if she has any pups. i know all the pro's and cons about breeding. its not like i woke up today and thought.... we will breed her. 
it has been in thought for aprox 2 yrs if not more.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

midori said:


> T
> 
> There is no evidence that mongrels are healthier than pedigrees. If you are talking about supposed 'hybrid vigour' (which is scientifically debatable anyway, as crossbred dogs aren't true hybrids and it might not even exist) then that is only 'valid' for a first cross.



actually quite recently there was an artical in The Times about a study that had the outcome that pedigrees were 3 times more expensive to care for than mongrels due to their health problems. There are hundreds of online I could post about the health of cross breeds being far superior to that of pedigrees.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

wohic said:


> quite a lot were actually ex brood bitches from wales, we would go up om the 7th day (just before the vet arrived) and take home what we could, we have also had dozens of huntington life science Beagles to place.
> yes seeing the amount of dogs in rescue is disheartening, how ever the family that decides to breed once are not the cause, its the big breeders churning out pup after pup for money that cause this....... I went to a dogs home the other day and i swear two thirds were stafffys, pocket dogs are very rarely seen as small dogs tend to stay with their owners for life.


 
It's not just disheartening, it is soul destroying. There are no words to describe how I feel about people who treat their dogs like throw away possessions. 

I agree the rescue situation with staffs and staff crosses is dreadful, but there are quite a few JRT's and crosses in rescue too.


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

midori said:


> It's not just disheartening, it is soul destroying. There are no words to describe how I feel about people who treat their dogs like throw away possessions.
> 
> I agree the rescue situation with staffs and staff crosses is dreadful, but there are quite a few JRT's and crosses in rescue too.


at the end of the day what i do is up to me. and i do agree with you about the rescue's. i have 3 myself and intened on more as we have the space for them. if i could have them all i would. i have seen something u couldnt imagin. my dogs are well cared for. loved. and looked after, infact my dogs are my life and soul.


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

so because her dog isnt a pedigree bought for breeding for money and paired up with other pedigrees she isnt allowed to breed from her? as mentioned in posts above there is proof around that purebred dogs (if all these terms are wrong, it is because i dont have or wish to have a collection of breeding dogs lol) have a lot of health problems whereas mongrels are argued to be less prone (probably because purebred is another word for inbred- go far back enough and all these dogs come from a very small collection and its no wonder they pass on bad traits aswell as good). 

why is it so bad that she wants to breed her dog? she has said it is only once and that she already has forever homes lined up without planning on making any money out of it, so what is the problem?


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

Im really not going to get into the breed or not to breed debate but a couple of points...
it is not healthy for a bitch to have a litter any more than it is healthy for a human to have a baby, they can both have a dire effect on the health..... or not. it comes down to variables. the health of the bitch at the time of conception, the health of the dog at mating. the bitches bodys ability to handle the physical changes.... etc etc etc.

Have you had your dog hip scored? and what were the results?


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

fraggle said:


> so because her dog isnt a pedigree bought for breeding for money and paired up with other pedigrees she isnt allowed to breed from her? as mentioned in posts above there is proof around that purebred dogs (if all these terms are wrong, it is because i dont have or wish to have a collection of breeding dogs lol) have a lot of health problems whereas mongrels are argued to be less prone (probably because purebred is another word for inbred- go far back enough and all these dogs come from a very small collection and its no wonder they pass on bad traits aswell as good).
> 
> why is it so bad that she wants to breed her dog? she has said it is only once and that she already has forever homes lined up without planning on making any money out of it, so what is the problem?


tbh i really dont care what they think, or what they think is best. its not going to change my mind. nor will it stop all the other breeders in the uk, for god sake.... they eat dogs over seas....... try doing something about that instead of lecturing me over something that dont concern you!!


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> tbh i really dont care what they think, or what they think is best. its not going to change my mind. nor will it stop all the other breeders in the uk, for god sake.... they eat dogs over seas....... try doing something about that instead of lecturing me over something that dont concern you!!


oh gawd, dont tell jamie oliver, he'll have a new quest to shorten the waiting list for rescue spaces... lol


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

fraggle said:


> oh gawd, dont tell jamie oliver, he'll have a new quest to shorten the waiting list for rescue spaces... lol


oh dear i feel a pad lock coming on...... pmsl xx


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

wohic said:


> actually quite recently there was an artical in The Times about a study that had the outcome that pedigrees were 3 times more expensive to care for than mongrels due to their health problems. There are hundreds of online I could post about the health of cross breeds being far superior to that of pedigrees.


Perhaps you could post them then? I'd be intersted to read, and the study referred to in the Times article if you have details? 

Thankyou!


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> tbh i really dont care what they think, or what they think is best. its not going to change my mind. nor will it stop all the other breeders in the uk, for god sake.... they eat dogs over seas....... try doing something about that instead of lecturing me over something that dont concern you!!


 
Of course it is up to you whether you breed her or not.
Nobody can stop you breeding your dog.
but have you had her hip scored, you have said yourself that she is small and you dont want to risk the pups heads getting stuck, so you will have had the relevent health checks done before you breed her?
what were the results?


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

my dog is a bit of a looker- anyone fancy borrowing him before hes booked in for the snip?  lol

(and yes, i am joking...)


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fraggle said:


> so because her dog isnt a pedigree bought for breeding for money and paired up with other pedigrees she isnt allowed to breed from her? as mentioned in posts above there is proof around that purebred dogs (if all these terms are wrong, it is because i dont have or wish to have a collection of breeding dogs lol) have a lot of health problems whereas mongrels are argued to be less prone (probably because purebred is another word for inbred- go far back enough and all these dogs come from a very small collection and its no wonder they pass on bad traits aswell as good).
> 
> why is it so bad that she wants to breed her dog? she has said it is only once and that she already has forever homes lined up without planning on making any money out of it, so what is the problem?


Do you think people who breed pedigree dogs do it for the money then? That is the impression I get from your post. 

'Proof' might have been mentioned in posts above, but as far as I know, here has been no valid scientific study which proves either crossbreeds or pedigrees are healthier. If I see evidence to the contrary, I will happily stand corrected. 

When breeding pedigree dogs properly, and I can't state the word properly enough, the breeder will know the blodlines inside and out, will hve done all the health tests and will be breeding fr health as well as type and temprement. Bad traits and/or health problems can be bred out, as well as desirable traits bred in.


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

chalottej1983 said:


> it is actually healthy for a bitch to have at least 1 litter of pups.


Not strictly true. My vet maintains it's the complete opposite and we had our dog (cairn terrier x jack russell crossbreed) neutered at six months. Our neighbours have her full blood brother and I didn't want to take any chances...:whistling2:

I'm glad you got it sorted though and good for you for holding tough against all the naysayers. : victory:

At the end of the day, it's your little dog (she's lovely btw) and I'm sure you'll do everything in your power to make sure she has a safe pregnancy and healthy pups. Be sure to post some photos of them. :2thumb:


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

midori said:


> Do you think people who breed pedigree dogs do it for the money then? That is the impression I get from your post.
> 
> 'Proof' might have been mentioned in posts above, but as far as I know, here has been no valid scientific study which proves either crossbreeds or pedigrees are healthier. If I see evidence to the contrary, I will happily stand corrected.
> 
> When breeding pedigree dogs properly, and I can't state the word properly enough, the breeder will know the blodlines inside and out, will hve done all the health tests and will be breeding fr health as well as type and temprement. Bad traits and/or health problems can be bred out, as well as desirable traits bred in.


there are just as many arguments for this as against. everyone who argues people should take rescue dogs argue all the evidence that mongrels are healthier, everyone who breeds show dogs or is in that circle argue the evidence against. its a no win argument. 
yes i do think some people breed pedigree dogs for the money. not all, but yes, some.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fraggle said:


> there are just as many arguments for this as against. everyone who argues people should take rescue dogs argue all the evidence that mongrels are healthier, everyone who breeds show dogs or is in that circle argue the evidence against. its a no win argument.
> yes i do think some people breed pedigree dogs for the money. not all, but yes, some.


I'm not talking about arguements, or hearsay, or opinions, I am talking about scientific proof that mongrels are healthier than pedigree dogs or vice versa. As far as I know, there is none. 

Of course some people who breed pedigree dogs do so for the money. The vast majority of puppy farmed dogs are pedigree. However, most people who show and breed their pedigre dogs don't do it for the money. They do it for the love of 'their' breed, and their dogs and they do it in a responsible and well thought out manner.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

midori said:


> I'm not talking about arguements, or hearsay, or opinions, I am talking about scientific proof that mongrels are healthier than pedigree dogs or vice versa. As far as I know, there is none.


so Wohic was talking out of her hat when she mentioned the Times?
I took the time to look for the link for you.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/savings/article419963.ece



> However, most people who show and breed their pedigre dogs don't do it for the money. They do it for the love of 'their' breed, and their dogs and they do it in a responsible and well thought out manner.


 and you have scientific and irrefutable evidence showing this do you?


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

midori said:


> i'm not talking about arguements, or hearsay, or opinions, i am talking about scientific proof that mongrels are healthier than pedigree dogs or vice versa. As far as i know, there is none.
> 
> Of course some people who breed pedigree dogs do so for the money. The vast majority of puppy farmed dogs are pedigree. However, most people who show and breed their pedigre dogs don't do it for the money. They do it for the love of 'their' breed, and their dogs and they do it in a responsible and well thought out manner.


your a breeder then i take it?


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

midori said:


> I'm not talking about arguements, or hearsay, or opinions, I am talking about scientific proof that mongrels are healthier than pedigree dogs or vice versa. As far as I know, there is none.
> 
> Of course some people who breed pedigree dogs do so for the money. The vast majority of puppy farmed dogs are pedigree. However, most people who show and breed their pedigre dogs don't do it for the money. They do it for the love of 'their' breed, and their dogs and they do it in a responsible and well thought out manner.


as above- evidence _has_ been mentioned. and while yes, some breeds are gorgeous, and i am not saying they shouldn't breed them, merely that there is no more 'right' for them to than anyone else. if these pedigree breeders you refer to are doing it for their love of dogs and nothing else, and their morals are sooo high, then why arent they taking on rescue dogs instead of making more dogs. think of all the homes that could be saving dogs from the pound if there weren't so many 'designer pooches' around...


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## Dirtydozen (Feb 7, 2007)

midori said:


> The responsible breeders of pedigree dogs breed very rarely anyway. I know one person who has been a 'breeder' for 20 years, and has only bred three litters. Each time when she wanted a puppy for herself, to show and carry on her bloodline, and each time she had a large wating list. One person waited four years as they wanted a bitch of that particular line. Most breeders I know breed evry 3-5 years, and onlyif they have a waiting list.
> 
> There is no evidence that mongrels are healthier than pedigrees. If you are talking about supposed 'hybrid vigour' (which is scientifically debatable anyway, as crossbred dogs aren't true hybrids and it might not even exist) then that is only 'valid' for a first cross.


totally agree with u there, my mum has shown dogs for about 20years now she wouldnt call her self a breeder but she has had about 3 litters during her showing and mainly kept them all so she could get her own good quailty healthly show dogs, she does have over 20 dogs now as she will not get rid of any of her ex show dogs and does have a couple of rescues as well 

responsible breeders dont have litter after litter


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

have i at any point said i am having litter after litter? things get out of hand on here.... it annoys me


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

Dirtydozen said:


> totally agree with u there, my mum has shown dogs for about 20years now she wouldnt call her self a breeder but she has had about 3 litters during her showing and mainly kept them all so she could get her own good quailty healthly show dogs, she does have over 20 dogs now as she will not get rid of any of her ex show dogs and does have a couple of rescues as well
> 
> responsible breeders dont have litter after litter


*20* dogs!!!??? wow, she must have some energy!!!


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## Dirtydozen (Feb 7, 2007)

fraggle said:


> *20* dogs!!!??? wow, she must have some energy!!!


there her life, well all her animals r, she wouldnt have it any other way all her time is taken up grooming, playing, cleaning, washing, training, well just doggi stuff all day long and about 1 show a week, she also has chickens, 2 suggies and her parrots, i think thats it? lol


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

Dirtydozen said:


> there her life, well all her animals r, she wouldnt have it any other way all her time is taken up grooming, playing, cleaning, washing, training, well just doggi stuff all day long and about 1 show a week, she also has chickens, 2 suggies and her parrots, i think thats it? lol


haha! might send her a crate of redbull...


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

fraggle said:


> . if these pedigree breeders you refer to are doing it for their love of dogs and nothing else, and their morals are sooo high, then why arent they taking on rescue dogs instead of making more dogs. think of all the homes that could be saving dogs from the pound if there weren't so many 'designer pooches' around...


By designer you mean the mongrels that have 2 different pedigree parents I take it? If so I totally agree there shouldn't be so many of them about its about money for such breeders, not the health or welfare of the dogs, I've yet to find any that have done the appropriate health tests for the breeds used to produce said designer puppies!

As for pedigree breeders being morally high I am assuming you are ONLY equating that statement to us show breeders not all the backyard, local council approved pedigree breeders/kennels who don't health test their animals either? I'm sorry but as I take full responsibility for my own breedings including those produce by my stud male should they need fostering, holiday care, or nursing care should something happen to them and their owners, I really don't see why I should be held responsible for the offspring of backyard breeders who couldn't give a damn about the animals they produce.

As a pedigree show breeder my monies are already going to the RSPCA, Dogs Trust etc via excess KC funds, the KC are a non profit making private members club with a membership of a mere 1,500! £48 k to the RSPCA alone in August 08, £20 million plus spent by show breeders on Hipscoring, funding for the Animal Health Trust, DNA research for various diseases all of which are available to non show pedigree breeders too.

Personally I do take on rescue dogs asses them rehabilite them and find them great loving homes - my last rescue, a rottie from a backyard breeder who docked the litter illegally, cost over £2.5k on cruciate surgery alone, the council kennels were PTS'ing her on Xmas eve after she'd been found by the dog warden wandering the streets of Derby. I know I'm not the only show breeder who does such things despite the media claims.

Including my boys stud work I have had 6 litters in 30 yrs in 2 different breeds, my last litter are now 2 1/2 yrs old with at least another year before I breed again, if I ever do, I am not an exception in the show world.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

fraggle said:


> haha! might send her a crate of redbull...


lol back to my user now the oh has gone to bed lol

tea seems work 4 her lol

she loved it when i moved out she got another doggi room, well she has 5 now n a grooming room


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Schip said:


> By designer you mean the mongrels that have 2 different pedigree parents I take it? If so I totally agree there shouldn't be so many of them about its about money for such breeders, not the health or welfare of the dogs, I've yet to find any that have done the appropriate health tests for the breeds used to produce said designer puppies!
> 
> As for pedigree breeders being morally high I am assuming you are ONLY equating that statement to us show breeders not all the backyard, local council approved pedigree breeders/kennels who don't health test their animals either? I'm sorry but as I take full responsibility for my own breedings including those produce by my stud male should they need fostering, holiday care, or nursing care should something happen to them and their owners, I really don't see why I should be held responsible for the offspring of backyard breeders who couldn't give a damn about the animals they produce.
> 
> ...


Just out of interest. Why do you keep insisting that first cross dogs are mongrels? You must understand the difference between mongrel and crossbred.
First cross dogs, first cross cat, first cross chicken are all crossbreds, or f1 hybrids. A mongrel is an animal with no discernable purebreed in it's make up. I'm surprised you didn't understand the difference.


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## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

midori said:


> There is no evidence that mongrels are healthier than pedigrees. If you are talking about supposed 'hybrid vigour' (which is scientifically debatable anyway, as crossbred dogs aren't true hybrids and it might not even exist) then that is only 'valid' for a first cross.


I know that hybrid vigour is debatable but it is only debatable when the outcrosses inherit the deleterious traits from its parents which in most cases with dogs does not occur eg excessive skin wrinkles in some breeds or spinal defects within Rhodesian ridgebacks.

The evidence may be lacking to prove the true benefit of hybrid vigour but what is known is the effects of inbreeding, the opposite of hybrid vigour.

See A new direction for kennel club regulations and breed standards


INBREEDING AND PEDIGREE DOG BREEDS
Has some 'interesting' science in it, he talks alot about what is left out when discussing inbreeding but interestingly he also misses out alot of things which would be damaging towards his arguement. That isnt a balanced scientific paper it is breeder dogma.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> so Wohic was talking out of her hat when she mentioned the Times?
> I took the time to look for the link for you.
> Save money - feed a mongrel


Thankyou very much for taking the time to look for that, I am totally useless with Google! Much appreciated, it makes interesting reading. 

However, I don't see how me posting:

"Perhaps you could post them then? I'd be intersted to read, and the study referred to in the Times article if you have details? 

Thankyou!"

which i what I posted in response to Wohic's post, means she is 'talking out of her hat'? What you had quoted me as saying was in response to someone elses thread.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

"they eat dogs over seas"

They certainly do eat dogs overseas, maybe we should too. Would solve more than 1 problem


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## MELINDAGIBSON (Sep 8, 2007)

Good luck with your pups if you get some and we all want to see the little puppy pics :2thumb:


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Just out of interest. Why do you keep insisting that first cross dogs are mongrels? You must understand the difference between mongrel and crossbred.
> First cross dogs, first cross cat, first cross chicken are all crossbreds, or f1 hybrids. A mongrel is an animal with no discernable purebreed in it's make up. I'm surprised you didn't understand the difference.


 
As they are bred dog x dog regardless of breed they are not a hybrid, in order to be classed as a hybrid they have to be from 2 closely related species many true hybrids are sterile such as Mules and Ligers. They are purebreed TYPE/STYLE ie have some charateristics of known pure breeds, a mongrel is an animal plant etc that is a cross of different varieties.

http://home.comcast.net/~NoPuppyMillsVA/Poo-dogs___Designer_Mutts/Hybrid_Vigor/hybrid_vigor.html


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## MissHayho (Mar 17, 2007)

Have u found a stud yet. We wanted to breed our jack russel male , contct me if u still want a stud n I will pm u with pics n that.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

I'm not going in to any whys and werefores etc. Think enough have already said.
However, Your Bitch is 4 years old, and in breeding dogs, if you were wanting to breed it should have been done before she was 4. Just like you should not breed after the age of 7/8.

That is not a 'Pedigree' dog thing. It is across the board. All dogs.

Her age is my only major concern in this.


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