# Velvet Fancy Rats



## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

I found a pic here and wondered if they exist in the UK... 
Would kill for a pair...

Kat


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

I've never heard of velvet but there is such thing as silk rats? think there called silk, super soft glossy fur.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

satin, not silk lmao my bad! :lol2:


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

yep i have one...
I always thought her fur was unusual just like a rex rabbit but the other week i had a lovely rat lady round so i showed her a few rats including this one and she confirmed it was a velvet.
unfortunalty this girl has had a couple of litters and has retired but i never held any babys back due to not noticing the same type of fur on the babys. I have since found out that they dont show this type of fur until they are a little older and by that time most will be homed with new homes 
I would love more.. they are very soft to touch and the girl i have here is a stunning blue and friendly to boot.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

*cries* I'd have walked to you to pick up one of those!!! At least that confirms that they're around. 
Do you know if any of her offspring are breeding?

Kat


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

sorry i dont.. she is one of my oldeys and if i remember right all babys went to pet homes.

I also wish i had more :O(

she is really lovely though and the furr seems to get even softer with age.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I have never seen a velvet in the UK. Like satins, I've seen a few people who think they've got them but not the real thing. Although LisaLQ on here does have confirmed "proper" satins, they're the first I've seen in real life, and I've seen a lot of rats that people claimed were satin and weren't lol.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

I also have satins. 

satins look nice in the dark colours... not so much in the lighter ones!

These are not just shiney, they have longer softer fur and soft whiskers.. i have also seen people say they have satin rats just because the fur looks nice and shiney! a rat in good coat should be shiney .


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think you're mixing satin up with lustrous/plush. Proper satins are shorthaired rats with a high sheen and the ones in your previous pictures were deemed to be plush/lustrous weren't they because they had the long straggly coat? Have you ever sent their fur off to someone to confirm it like Lisa did? That would be a good idea, helps remove confusion. :2thumb:

ETA: Here are some photos of Lisa's satins, they are absolutely stunning. I love them. 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics-pictures/446846-wizzy-lucas.html


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

What colour satins do you breed? I'm hoping to get some blues courier'd down in a couple of months, It'd be nice to get unrelated animals. 

A little confused Kathy... according to AFRMA... satin have long silky coats. So either there are two strains of satin (which is possible) or you are mistaken. 

Kat


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

No I'm not mistaken, the AFRMA is an american site, they have different standards. Lisa's rats are confirmed satins, they had hair samples taken and sent off to Ann Storey who confirmed it. A proper satin should have a sleek and very shiny coat like Lisa's have, not these weird long wavy coats that some people wrongly call satins. They're pretty (not my cup of tea personally, but quite popular) but they've recently been given the name of "lustrous" or "plush". They do not as far as I know have a standard here yet.

ETA NFRS standard: http://www.nfrs.org/varietiesnewvarieties.html


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

KathyM said:


> No I'm not mistaken, the AFRMA is an american site, they have different standards. Lisa's rats are confirmed satins, they had hair samples taken and sent off to Ann Storey who confirmed it. A proper satin should have a sleek and very shiny coat like Lisa's have, not these weird long wavy coats that some people wrongly call satins. They're pretty (not my cup of tea personally, but quite popular) but they've recently been given the name of "lustrous" or "plush". They do not as far as I know have a standard here yet.
> 
> ETA NFRS standard: National Fancy Rat Society


 Yes I'm aware that AFRMA is american. The very fact that they have a different looking animal being called a satin kind of compounds my point
thus confirming my theory that there are TWO strains of satin. I wasn't trying to make out that you dont know what your talking about, just pointing out that you can easily get different lines/strains of the same sort of colour/coat type. Looking at that page reminded me of merles too... does any one breed those?

Kat


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks Kathy - yep, a few people have true satins pop up but no-one other than me (that I know of) breeds for them, and I'm only considering it, not definite.

One of my satin girls gave birth today (the one in the thread Kathy posted) - hopefully no satins this time though as I need regular hooded!

Her daughter might go on to start my satin plans if I decide to go ahead with it, the other person considering trying is Vicki at Campion Rats (with my girl's sister).

The "satins" you'll find doing the feeder (and now breeder!) rounds are now called "lustrous" so as not to cause confusion with the true satin. I believe they're in New Varieties now though - Laura/Spoiled Rat will confirm? She'll kill me if I spelt it wrong!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't think I'm making it very clear. There could be a million and one different coat related genes, but there's only one standard in this country and anything not fitting it isn't a "satin", it's something else. In the states they use different names. Whatever these longhaired rats are, they're not satins, because satin has a standard. It should be like a satin mouse, sleek, shorthaired and very shiny - the hairs apparently have a very distinctive look under the microscope and Lisa's rats are true satins by the standard and what the NFRS know about it. In the states they call things by different names and quite clearly what they call satin isn't what we call a satin. Whether or not their coat types are even in UK circulation is questionable - some common types like rex and the likes are, so it's possible I suppose, but it's still not a satin rat if it's got long hair (unless it's a really poor example that has been badly selectively bred for a long coat). :2thumb:

ETA: Another example was a link posted this morning for an Australian varieties site. They had what looked like a cinnamon pearl rat listed as an "argente" when it clearly wasn't an argente creme. In the states they call blue agouti "Opal" or "Lynx", I forget which. So just because they call something a satin, doesn't mean rats vaguely matching it over here are satins. First we'd have to have the same standards, and then we'd have to have the same genetics at play and often we dont. Their mink is different genetically and standard wise to our mink too.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

ok I'm happy that your satins are different... Ladyboid could you put up photos of yours so I can see what they look like? They sound lovely!
You're satins are lovely too Lisa, are you likely to be letting any babies go at some point? I've got something of a satin animal fetish, I've always bred for satin mice, syrians, campbells etc. 

Kat


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

Twiglet said:


> What colour satins do you breed? I'm hoping to get some blues courier'd down in a couple of months, It'd be nice to get unrelated animals.
> 
> A little confused Kathy... according to AFRMA... satin have long silky coats. So either there are two strains of satin (which is possible) or you are mistaken.
> 
> Kat


I breed russian blue , bristish blue and will get the odd siamese pop out.

I call them satins as this is what the founder over here called them way before someone came along and called them plush.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Pimperella and myself both have satins :no1:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> The "satins" you'll find doing the feeder (and now breeder!) rounds are now called "lustrous" so as not to cause confusion with the true satin. I believe they're in New Varieties now though - Laura/Spoiled Rat will confirm? She'll kill me if I spelt it wrong!


I don't think it is, but Russian Pearl got in I think (spits).


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Can I please see pictures of both varieties of 'satins'... plush and 'true'.
I would like to see what the differences are myself, I can't quite picture the plush variety in my mind. It'd be interesting to do a test mating between a 'plush' and a satin... if the resulting babies were 'poor quality' satins its the same gene, selectively bred differently, if the babies are normal furred its a different gene (this is assuming they are both recessive genes)

And also... merles? Does any one breed them?

Kat


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think the problem there is that anyone breeding for true satin wouldn't want the long coated ones in their lines, and probably vice versa. If I was breeding satin, I'd avoid russian blue in there too as it would muddy the water and make it all very hard to sort out, as russians have a different coat as it is. All the breeders I've heard claim they have satins have got longhaired russians. 

As for merle, that's something that just crops up in pearl breeding, I don't think it's anything that can really be bred for genetically but not sure if just selection effects things. I love a good pearl though.

ETA: if you want to see good pics of the plush/lustrous varieties, PM "Minerva" on here, she has some. Lisa is the only person I know with satins so those pics will be about all you can find for them in the UK I think (others have had them in the past but I've not seen photos).


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

one of mine next to a normal coat


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Plush is another gene again isnt it? Neither satin or lustrous?

I may have some satins in the future, but we're talking several months away, I also have a waiting list for babies.

Pearl will be having her litter in a month or two, but I cant guarantee there'll be satins in that as it's not just a simple recessive (so I'm told - but to be honest, I dont think anyone really knows yet!). 

I have three generations now - Puck (uncle to Wizbit and Angus), Angus (dad of Pearl), Wizbit (mum to Pearl), and Pearl (and her sister Cider who went to Campion). Great Grandad Finn probably is too but I didnt send his hair off so not confirmed.

Under the microscope, satin fur is transparent/hollow. Some satins (such as Puck) have curly whiskers almost like a rex rat, because the hair collapses. All my others have straight whiskers so far though - Puck was born with straight ones, and then went curly at a year old roughly. 

I have some lovely bald patches where they had their hair cut :lol2:

Here's pics...

Puck as a baby (straight fur/whiskers)









Puck more recently (curly whiskers - they're actually curlier still now)









Wizbit









Angus









Pearl


















Pearl's brothers might be satin too - but I only sent off the hair of her russian blue berkie brother, and it was inconclusive (as he's russian who are supposed to be glossy anyway).


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

ladyboid said:


> one of mine next to a normal coat
> 
> 
> image
> ...


They look lustrous, Laura will probably be able to tell


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

bosshogg said:


> Pimperella and myself both have satins :no1:


I'd be interested to see piccies


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

ladyboid said:


> one of mine next to a normal coat
> 
> 
> image
> ...


Yes they're very good example photos of the "false satins", whatever their proper name will turn out to be. Laura knows, I am not into them really so don't know what they are other than not satin lol. Very cute pets though.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

I know what you are saying they are now being called ( i got that on the last thred about this : victory but they were named satin way before i bred them and before the breeder i got them from bred them ect... why would the name change? 

how long has the other satin been about? they are lovely rats but to be honist from the photos they just look like good healthy coats and over the years i have had bred rats that seem to be extra shiney like that ( although most do have good coats some always seem to excell in a good coat). 
I know in mice the hair is see through .. are these as satin as a satin mouse to the eye..?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes, they are, and have the transparent hairs like that. To be honest and not meaning any disrespect at *all*, it confuses things to call anything other than the NFRS standard satin, and so I think it's great that breeders of the other types are changing their wording and claiming a new name which is a better representation. Otherwise people are going to end up with rats for breeding that are incompatible either way, and think they can make satins (or plush) out of the wrong ones, if you get me? I think the longhaired russians are very cute, especially as babies, but they're not anything like satin as I know it. 

I am unsure of the history of satin, I bet there'll be an old article on the history of it in an old issue of Pro Rata.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

ok thanks. So the merle gene is not heritable, its like the mosaic gene in hamsters? Just a random anomaly rather like paradox markings in herps?
I'm with you now. The longhaired plush-not-satins are really cute... do they stay that scruffy looking as adults or do they grow into their fur? Are pimperellas satins the same as either of these or are they different again? 
I can see that you wouldnt want to breed these lines together for showing but a couple of test matings would prove out one way or another if they are related genes. 

Kat


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Twiglet said:


> ok thanks. So the merle gene is not heritable, its like the mosaic gene in hamsters? Just a random anomaly rather like paradox markings in herps?
> I'm with you now.
> 
> Kat


I'm not sure if merle is heritable to be honest, I don't think it is, I think it's just variability in the coat colour of pearls. Mosaic in rats is the same (I think) as paradox in reptiles if I've understood it properly, in that it is "two rats in one". I have a mosaic rat.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> Pimperella and myself both have satins :no1:


Yup. Being as Myselof and Dianne had the First ever Satins in the UK.

And have had them ever since.

Everyones Satins decend from our rats regardless. Unless they imported from outside the UK.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I am pretty sure that none of the true satins I've met came from your or Diane's lines. Half of Lisa's satin mix is Finnish, the other half probably originated from TJ lines.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

can I pester you for pics or links to pics please? I know I'm being a pain, i'm trying to get my head round all of this and pictures help. 

Kat


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Yes, they are, and have the transparent hairs like that. To be honest and not meaning any disrespect at *all*, it confuses things to call anything other than the NFRS standard satin, and so I think it's great that breeders of the other types are changing their wording and claiming a new name which is a better representation. Otherwise people are going to end up with rats for breeding that are incompatible either way, and think they can make satins (or plush) out of the wrong ones, if you get me? I think the longhaired russians are very cute, especially as babies, but they're not anything like satin as I know it.
> 
> I am unsure of the history of satin, I bet there'll be an old article on the history of it in an old issue of Pro Rata.


I also agrea that people should stick with one name so there is no confusion ect! 

I dont call mine satins to sell... i dont call mine satins to disagree with people .. i call them as this is what they have been known as and to be honist with you since they have been named plush ect i have been telling people who have had them from me that this is the name they are more known by lately. I NEVER try to miss sell something.. I will always explain all i know about the gene and how it works .

It makes no difference that i am a feeder breeder ( all that means to me is i will cull to keep the best rodents to breed from and my reptiles get good food same time) I breed them because i love the fur .. its so soft and they look very cute as babys.. also the adults are lovely and chunky and i would like to improve them (health and type)




Twiglet said:


> ok thanks. So the merle gene is not heritable, its like the mosaic gene in hamsters? Just a random anomaly rather like paradox markings in herps?
> I'm with you now.
> 
> Kat


I bred these a few years back and you can improve the amount of merl by selecting for it but its very hit and miss how much you will get.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

Kat I was just looking back through some of my old photos and found one of my rats i owned quite a few years back now and he would of been this ones grandad! i remeber him having weird fur but looking at the photos i am pretty sure he was a velvet aswell.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

thats interesting. did he keep his long wavy fur? how much does age change it or does it remain like that throughout thier lives?

Kat


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I would love to see him, bet he was lovely. :2thumb: I've never seen one. 

I know it sounds like I'm disregarding other varieties, but I really am not. I've seen plenty of them I'd steal in a heartbeat. I make no differentiation between types of breeders when I comment either. I've seen plenty of good and bad in all sorts of breeding. :2thumb:


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

Twiglet said:


> thats interesting. did he keep his long wavy fur? how much does age change it or does it remain like that throughout thier lives?
> 
> Kat


the velvits dont have long fur thats the "other type" lol
these they have a very short coat .. they seem to be missing guard hairs so are left with a really soft undercoat that feels like a rex rabbit (looks a little like one but not as good)



KathyM said:


> I would love to see him, bet he was lovely. :2thumb: I've never seen one.
> 
> I know it sounds like I'm disregarding other varieties, but I really am not. I've seen plenty of them I'd steal in a heartbeat. *I make no differentiation between types of breeders when I comment either*. I've seen plenty of good and bad in all sorts of breeding. :2thumb:


Thats good :O) I do worry when people mention feeder breeders ( the catagory i fall into) that we dont care or we breed for the wrong reasons or ill treat animals.
I care about my rodents as much as i do my boas ! after all i have to as i spend 90% with the rodents ether making new beds for them , mixing food, cleaning out , feeding, handling ect ect... and i enjoy it other wise i wouldnt do it.
I wll try to find that photo again and get it up... I have thousands of photos of the rats over the years.. mice... boas... i might not be back in a rush * note to self ** organise your folders*


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think some people use the term "feeder breeder" negatively and others use it to differentiate between goals if you get me (eg. to illustrate the circles of breeding rats, some are now intermingling). I don't think I said it, but if I did it wasn't meant in the negative way.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

I know you didnt say it negatively Katchy. 
I can see where ladyboid is coming from. I breed my own feeders too so that I KNOW they've been kept in the best way, humanely culled etc etc. 

I'm not saying this is the norm (although for all i know it might be)I once spoke to a mouse breeder who advocated culling off excess or mismarked animals, particularly males, but wouldnt have anything to do with me because I'd feed mice to my snakes... 
huh??
At least my mice get used not just bumped off and binned...

Kat


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Twiglet said:


> I know you didnt say it negatively Katchy.


LOL I'm struggling to find where I said it at all! Agree with the rest of your post. It's a funny old world. :lol2:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

bad photo but first one i cam across without sitting through hundreds of pics but you can just about make her out in this pic


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

KathyM said:


> LOL I'm struggling to find where I said it at all! Agree with the rest of your post. It's a funny old world. :lol2:


you didnt lol

I was just putting some of my thoughts on the subject of breeding ect..... : victory:


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

ladyboid said:


> you didnt lol
> 
> I was just putting some of my thoughts on the subject of breeding ect..... : victory:


and I was agreeing and making it clear I wasn't directing my thoughts at you...

That rat kitten is stunning! It looks very much like Lisas satins to me? 
I'm really looking forward to getting mine, I'm sure they'll be happy as larry in our furet tower.
Thanks for posting the photo. Its been an interesting discussion.

Kat


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

That photo claire looks just like mine did at that age, just before the fur gets a little longer. Even down to the relaxed whiskers.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

That's a lustrous - they are lovely, but a different gene. I think the problem is that along the way they were named satin when they weren't, and it stuck. The new name should help with any confusion - plus lustrous sounds much more "exotic".

My rats definitely dont come from Diane's lines. Mine are from Swiftvalley, TJ, Halcyon....and on the other side back to the Finnish hooded. I was aiming for hooded and they popped up, I knew they were very different. You're right - to look at in piccies, they are "nothing special", but ALL my rats have glossy coats, this is something very different to a healthy coat - it feels very different underhand. I'll no doubt have them at one of the local shows at some point if anyone wants to see them (although Wizzy is busy for the next 8-10 weeks as she gave birth this morning!). The satin on the russian coat (Puck - dove) is actually rather rough due to the double coat, so I wouldn't purposefully make satin in russian as it doesn't come out very well. In black though it is stunning - I'm hoping to get them back to self if I do decide to carry on breeding them (as Pearl is a berkie).

Satins look like very shiny normal coated and then moult into even shinier satin. Here's a pic showing one who'd moulted and one who was yet to...










The "unshiny" one moulted a few days later, and is the one who went to Campion Rats.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Twiglet said:


> It looks very much like Lisas satins to me?


Mine at a similar age - see they dont have the long hair the other kittens do:





































Very short and very healthy glossy looking, but the real shine came through at 6-8 weeks as per earlier pics.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

Aha!!
love the last photo. As I said, I love satin anything!

Kat


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Me too, I love satin mice, I hope to have some one day!

Edit: I forgot I also have a satin guinea pig LOL.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

I had satin piggies once upon a time. Satin dove tan mice were always my favorite. So striking!

Kat


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ooo yes I love dove too, and tans, so that'd be one of my ultimates LOL!


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

mine didnt grow a longer coat it looks longer in pic but isn't! but that was taken a while back on an old 3mp camera! and she looks like your black just in russian blue I alwasys say they look like they have been oiled


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah, that's exactly how it is, and to feel them too - so smooth and sleek, very noticable - just not so in photos!

Where did your lines originate from - that might help work out which gene it is?


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

half mine are from Di/Laura the other lines came from someone local and I dont know were she got them from


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

They're probably the lustrous then - but that one does seem a little shorter coated than the others in the thread, might be worth talking to Laura/Dianne about how it expresses?


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> They're probably the lustrous then - but that one does seem a little shorter coated than the others in the thread, might be worth talking to Laura/Dianne about how it expresses?


 
As far as we can work out, the slightly longer coat came through with the rex gene. Those that had rex became longhaired in satin. 
Well thats what ours are any hoo.


I remember years back when I had my first satins turn up in litters. I posted pictures on Fancy Rats and got slated and told in no way could I have satins as they didn't exsist in the UK.
But I showed them to some top rat people (who have left rats now and are in mice and rabbits now) and they assured me they were.
Had a certain rat breeder really slagging me off purely because she hated Di, and Di was a friend of mine. Saying all sorts of rubbish. All because I had these Satins. She went on about my rats and animals like she had seen them when in fact she hadd niether met me anywhere nor been to my house lol Was so silly it was almost funny. And then she tried to book a couple of the Satins off me!!! lol 
But I knew both her email addresses as she had emailed me by mistake from her secret one when having one of her rants lol


Cynthia at Rat rescue had 2 from my first litter and she did very well in Showing the Black Buck. She's done well showing a few rats off me. So have a number of other people and it has always been nice to hear of their weekends wins.
1 Lady had 2 rats off me around the same time and when they both passed at around 3 years old, she came back to me to put her name down instantly when she found out I was breeding again instead of just having them as pets. It's always nice to get such good feedback and I certainly love getting photos of my babies doing well in new homes.

Cynthia knows how I keep my rats and how loved they are. Otherwise she wouldn't still be my friend after 12 years. She has 2 satins booked for when I have my first litter of them this year.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Pimperella said:


> As far as we can work out, the slightly longer coat came through with the rex gene. Those that had rex became longhaired in satin.
> Well thats what ours are any hoo.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks laura that explains it perfectly I think its all so interesting


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

bosshogg said:


> Thanks laura that explains it perfectly I think its all so interesting


 
Soon as my brother has retrieved the data off my old pc's hard drive I'll sort you out pics of the first ones we had.

I have to say, I was very excited at them appearing in litters. All I wanted at the time was to express my joy at them and recieved some serious abuse for it at the time.
Odd, barely get anything like that at all with Chickens. People creating new colours and types of old well known breeds and no one minds in fact they applaud the effort as breeding chickens is not a quick thing in getting the colours right, takes years and years of breeding as can normally only do 1 generation a year.
All apart from those Blue egg laying Silver Dorkings, which are highly frowned upon by the dorking club. Dorkings lay white eggs lol and the blue egg layer was created by crossing CC Legbars into the and mating back to dorkings again. They are getting stupid prices on eggs and yes they look like dorkings, but if you have a hen in a show and it lays while there it's an instant disqualifier lol

EEEE Got a right head ache and took double my meds so I am in a giddy waffling mode lol 

All in all, I love rats. I don't care who has what as long as they love their rats.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Me neither, just was trying to explain why mine didnt have the long hair.

I was certain a few years ago satin didnt exist over here, but now I've been in the rat fancy a bit longer and got to know other breeders, I've found out it pops up now and again but no-one breeds for it.

It is different to the longer haired lustrous definitely as your pics and others I've seen have shown the babies in lustrous litters have much longer hair and a (not greasy as that sounds mean when I mean how the hair hangs almost in locks?) funny way of lying. Erm. I cant find the right words. Plus they have curly/wavy whiskers - which mine dont have, apart from Puck - and they only curled as an adult (I have lots of pics of him with straight ones - and as he's my only ugly faced dove buck I know I'ev not confused him with another rat LOL).

I just assumed my babies were regular coated and just very shiny. Then they moulted as older kittens and I knew there was something different, so I got the id done. Wizbit's littermates were homed out as regular coated, but now I've seen them as adults I'm certain those I've seen are satin too. And Wizzy's babies - some of them. I dont know what the hair composition is like on the lustrous, have you looked under a microscope? Satin is hollow hairs from what I'm told - I dont have a microscope so I sent hair samples off to Ann at the NFRS.

So it's interesting we have all these different types of coat now - back when I started keeping rats a few years ago I thought they came in rex and smooth and nothing else. Now I have satin, you and others have lustrous (yes, jealous I am), there's velvet, plush, rex, double rex, recessive rex....and more no doubt!


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

very interesting ... be good to work this out for sure! 

here is an adult photo of my ones i have been calling satin. This one looked long coated and greasy when young like the ones i already put up 









and a photo of one that came from the same litter but didnt show as a greasy long coated ratty









both look same length fur now but both shiney


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think that's the thing - perhaps once they're adults they're much of a muchness between the two - I really wouldn't know though as I dont breed lustrous - Laura seems to have a lot of knowledge about them and is definitely the best person to speak to about the lustrous.

But if they're longer coated as babies, they're definitely the lustrous. It's just a new name so that the two genes dont get confused, they're all just as beautiful and just as sought after as they always were


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

A baby photo of mine before the fur looks longer.
the longer hair stage only lasts about 2/3 weeks ish on mine


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Twiglet said:


> ok I'm happy that your satins are different... Ladyboid could you put up photos of yours so I can see what they look like? They sound lovely!
> You're satins are lovely too Lisa, are you likely to be letting any babies go at some point? I've got something of a satin animal fetish, I've always bred for satin mice, syrians, campbells etc.
> 
> Kat


 I have powder blue satin dumbos.:2thumb:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> As far as we can work out, the slightly longer coat came through with the rex gene. Those that had rex became longhaired in satin.
> Well thats what ours are any hoo.
> 
> 
> ...


 Wherever there are animals being bred and shown, nasty bitchy people will be . They get jealous if someone has something nice and jealously guard their 'rare' colours and coats and slate anyone who might also have them as they are terrified that they won't feel 'special' any more. Really you have to feel sorry for people with personality disorders like that whereby they feel so insignificant that it screws them up and turns them into nasty bits of work.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Always takes one to lower the tone. We were discussing it sensibly and amicably and explaining the difference between the two genes.

I'm not jealous, or guarding anything - just saying satin is satin and lustrous is lustrous, just like black is black and agouti is agouti. 

Chill out - we're talking genetics, not popularity contest!: victory:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Wherever there are animals being bred and shown, nasty bitchy people will be . They get jealous if someone has something nice and jealously guard their 'rare' colours and coats and slate anyone who might also have them as they are terrified that they won't feel 'special' any more. Really you have to feel sorry for people with personality disorders like that whereby they feel so insignificant that it screws them up and turns them into nasty bits of work.





LisaLQ said:


> Always takes one to lower the tone. We were discussing it sensibly and amicably and explaining the difference between the two genes.
> 
> I'm not jealous, or guarding anything - just saying satin is satin and lustrous is lustrous, just like black is black and agouti is agouti.
> 
> Chill out - we're talking genetics, not popularity contest!: victory:


 
I think it's more in ref to when they first came out and the grief that followed, I was dead proud of them myself but sadly others at that time didn't want me to be.

It's the 'lustrous' that I obviously 'created' as myself and Di actually worked on them to start them off. Spoiled Rats stock atually came from Di. Di directly and another breeder who had also got them off Di.

I just went quiet on mine and kept them anyway. Sometimes I homed them as pets, later found they had been bred from. Would just rather people were honest.

Aye, the 'lustrous' are longhaired and yes have a geesey look (that was exactly what I discribed them as being years ago lol)
I can get fur samples of these but only Microscope I have is a kids one lol

I've been slowly working on satinising my siamese. Only doing this very small scale as not in any rush to mass breed them or anything. They still take the same care and dedication I like to put into my babies. And of course concentrating on Health and type.

I have some 'lustrous' paired up at the moment. So waiting on babies sometime this spring. I have some previous owners waiting as well as 2 new ones.
When people are honest and of course love and care for their rats, then I am happy to home to them, if they plan to breed I would rather they said so that I could provide better breeding quality rats, as I don't show I certainly don't mind if they are, just aslong as they don't take my name off it and go claiming it was bred by themselves like many have, which is sad really.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

I think I must have two lines in my russian blues then (main colour my satins are in) as I get the short haird version then I get the slightly longer haired version! 

put searching through rat pics not easy with other a 600 hundred :lol2:

and found a pic of the slightly longer haired, I havent got many pics as when I posted them on a forum I got bitched at, so tended not to have them on PB, will have to see what i have on old comp

Heres a slightly longer haird version, so would this be classed as lustrous?


















and a shorthaired, one,sorry the pic is crap still looking for better ones









Brussels was getting on is the pic he was about 20months old but i always classed him as a satin










and you can spot in these pics a couple of satin/lustrous babies









this is a girl that went to a friend this pic doesnt do her justcie will see if she has any better pics









and finally found the pic this is th other line what i havent known what to call so as i wasnt selling for showing just called them long hair satins :lol2: but reading this thread i take it there lustrous same as ladyboids?











I have more but there all blurry like this









all photos were taken before I had my SLR so very low quailty so doesnt show of the shine, will get pics of any I get out of a litter I'm hoping to get from a russian blue carrying satin doe and a siamese carrying satin buck, might show up better on new camera  

and agree with you pimp, when I got my first rats, i posted pics on a forum, and just said I got them from a certain area didnt name the breeders, and got messages saying all my rats would be dead in a few months and that they would be riddled with health problems, well they all lived to other three years old and never had a problem in there life! I Left th forum though and just bred for temperament, health and the colours i liked


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

bosshogg said:


> Brussels was getting on is the pic he was about 20months old but i always classed him as a satin


Brussels was ADORABLE!!!!!!


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

The long haired one look rediculous! (in a cute way!)
I had some one a few years ago buy some syrian hamsters off me... one for each kid (as people do) I made it very clear that they weren't to be bred from as they were brother and sister it was all agreed and a matter of weeks later I got a call to say they though the female was pregnant. She was only nine weeks old 

the kids pestered mummy to let them make baby hamsters, they were kept together in the females cage for a week until they couldnt bear the fighting (duh...) and seperated them. Unfortunately the female was pregnant, didnt pass all of the babies, had a very large litter (it was about fourteen if i recall) and promptly died of pyometra. 

How angry was I! I agree... people should be totally honest and if some one is saying that they dont want something bred from its normally for a very good reason. 

Back to rats... cant wait to get my lustrous ratlets!!

Kat


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

That short haired black baby looks pretty much like mine, so you probably have regular satin in there too. :2thumb:

The blues are definitely not regular satin though - even my blue based babies in the satin litter didnt have longer hair.

I think like all other varieties, there will be some variation - so you could get "good" and "bad" lustrous based on their coat length (just like bad rexing, or longer coat on regular rats is a "fault" - eg. not to standard). That could explain why some are very long coated and some not so.

I think the biggest difference is how good the lustrous look on russian blue based rats. My only russian based satin (Puck the dove) is not sleek or very shiny, he's got very rough hair and his collapsed hairs and undercoat make him look almost rexy.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I have the 'lustrous', still prefer to call it satin rex though as that is what it was from the outset, in russian blue, russian blue agouti, black and agouti.

I also have 'very shiny' rats that I would think were normal satin but having had no tests done I can't really claim that can I???

Pimp,

I had peope on one forum insisting I bought my first rats from Di, I didnt', calling me a liar and everything.
They were saying my rats were crap and the same as Claire that they would die young and have health issues.
Then they were trying to buy them form me. Resorting to sending other people to my house to buy from me.
Well I've had two female tumours, in does over 2 years old, that is it.
I've had one head tilt but that was because the doe was pushed off a shelf at only 6 weeks old and had a head injury!
My russian varieties tend to live until 'on average' 28-30 months, which is considered quite good really.

Two of my boys, I had sold them, were placed at the YRC dumbo show two years running.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

saxon said:


> I have the 'lustrous', still prefer to call it satin rex though as that is what it was from the outset, in russian blue, russian blue agouti, black and agouti.
> 
> I also have 'very shiny' rats that I would think were normal satin but having had no tests done I can't really claim that can I???
> 
> ...


 
Typical isn't it tho. Slag off those with good rats because they are better than theirs lol It really was a complete joke. Had mine living nice long lives of 2 and a half to 3 years old. Thankfully not had tumours since I completely finished a certain line that I got 2 in at 1 and a half. Stopped that line and not had a problem since.
Cynthia has had Rats off both Myself and Di and shown them and been placed loads of times with them, with people saying how fantastic they are in type and size. So it certainly had me laughing that my rats were 'crap' considering they were winning shows over their rats lol
Had Cynthia saying I really should show sometime tho. I do have a few I think would do very well on the show bench. It's just getting to them for me, and recovering from the mission the day after.
Personally, we know we have fantastic Rats. And we are happy with them. Thats the most important thing.

And yes, I still call mine Satin. Just because someone trys to claim they started them and does a name change lol


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't know where this hostility comes from, but Lisa's done nothing of the sort? She calls her rats satin because that's what they are. If yours are the same thing, marvellous, she's not said anything bad about you. the longhaired rats just simply aren't satin, it's not an argument, it's not your politics, it's not Fancy Rats rat police. :no1:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

KathyM said:


> I don't know where this hostility comes from, but Lisa's done nothing of the sort? She calls her rats satin because that's what they are. If yours are the same thing, marvellous, she's not said anything bad about you. the longhaired rats just simply aren't satin, it's not an argument, it's not your politics, it's not Fancy Rats rat police. :no1:


 
wasn't talking about Lisa lol 
You really should read everything first :whistling2:

We, me saxon and Bosshogg are talking about the crap we all got because we put pictures of our rats on the rat fancy forum and got slated cause Di was not only a tip breeder, colour and type creator and Judge.
Talking 5/6 years ago, like said, before you weren't even on the rat scene. When a certain known trouble maker and a daughter of an Irish puppy farmer, tried to cause endless trouble for us and then she tried to get rats off us by using other people or newly made email addresses.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Oh God, dunno if I even want to hear this. The rat world has far too many politics for me, I just like rats me. :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It's awful that the whole rat fancy gets slated because of the alleged actions of one or two people.

I have no comment about Di as I dont know her, although I've heard a lot about her.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Aye. Things said by one person that soon travelled and things she said people believed. She even said she had been to my house lol Which was laughable cause when questioned she had no idea where I lived and thought I also lived in Blackburn.
She was very well known amougst the rat fancy and at a time when no one else in the rat fancy would let her have rats, Di, unknowing as to what she was truely like, took a chance on her and let her have rats. 

The whole situation certainly left a bad taste and talking with former Rat breeders at NMC Shows, the situation at the time was rather bad, with old long term breeders. One who now breeds rabbits and mice instead and had some of the best Russian Blues in an amazing size, won all the time, oooh dear, he was winning all the time and that was the problem. He felt he had no choice after the onslaught of what we then termed 'The Rat Nazis'

Since then I stayed off rat forums. But in chatting with Cynth, she was saying it's changed a lot since then and seems to be a lot better. She said I really should get to some shows and take some of my rats instead of others having them off me and showing them and me being chuffed for their show wins.
When I finally learn to drive, I just might lol My days of lugging a trolly full of rodents across country by bus and trains are well and truely over lol
Try doing it now witha walking stick and I'd most likely make it to the show, but would be half dead before even setting off home lol


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah I know the feeling, shows really take it out of me too, people dont always realise I'm supposed to use sticks, but instead spend the day on heavy duty pain relief or with just one stick, but the next few days post show are often spent in and out of bed in pain. I dont show much because of this - not because I cant attend at all, but because I dont like to commit myself to a full day (which you have to if you're showing) in case I feel bad and need to go home.

Plus I rarely have a decent rat for the varieties class, with choosing marked - most of mine are mismarked in some way. I know a lot of people think showing and winning is very important so that they can get their stud name, but I know with the relatively few litters I breed that'll never happen for me, so I just do it for fun more than anything - and to get feedback so I can work out what I need to work on.

I love pet class though - again, I dont show often because of the commitment to a full day, but I'm going to try harder this year! I really want to get into pet judging, I stewarded at the Bradford Champs and am going to be judging pet at a show in the summer, just wish there were more NFRS shows up here (although there may be something in the pipeline for that - fingers crossed).


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