# Eye Pigment in Leopard geckos... *Warning Alot of Pictures



## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

R.A.P.T.O.R, Eclipse, Abyssinian, Radar, Typhoon, Snake Eye, Nova, Dreamsickle, B.E.E. Black Hole, Stealth, Super Black Hole, Super Nova, Total Eclipse, Super Raptor, ........................The list goes on.


What do they all mean? What is up with the eye pigment? How dose it work? What effect dose pattern have on the eyes?
Okay first you must understand a few things so we will start with that. 
Patterns are the biggest thing that you should learn to understand what is going on. 

Banded or “Normal”
Ok first we have to start from the “normal” leopard gecko it is what is called banded. 

Aberrant
From breeding these banded geckos eventually you will get “aberrant” pattern geckos. These geckos will just have one or more broken bands.
Aberrant
 
Albino Aberrants

4 eyed
It was once thought that the 4 eye pattern on the head was some kind of a marker for getting aberrant pattern geckos 
On the head you can see the “4 Eyed” pattern. It is basically two light colored spots behind the eyes. 

Jungle
When you start breeding the aberrant pattern geckos together you will eventually get what is called a “jungle” pattern.

Albino Jungle

This pattern is should be defined as having a broken neck band along with a high degree of aberrant patterning to the back. The key is the broken neck band. 
*Breeding 2 aberrant geckos together dose not always give you a jungle. You can’t look at as a recessive trait.

Stripe
The next step from that is to get the pattern to line up strait. Breeding the jungles together, at some point you will hatch out what is called a stripe. A stripe will be a light color stripe down the back with dark pigment stripes on either side of it. 
*There is such a thing as a broken stripe 



Note that on an albino it would be the opposite it will be a stripe of color (ranging from white to dark orange) the dark pigment will not be there so it will be an area of lacking pigment. 


Mack stripe 


There are different colors of stripes as well. Bold stripe, Red stripe and Lavender stripes are just how we classify the color of the dark pigmented part of the flanking stripes. Here are some examples of each.

Bold stripes,
 

Red stripes,
 

Lavender stripes
 


There is such a thing as a broken stripe it would just be classified as a stripe that is broken at some point. It would be really just a jungle, but it is more then just a jungle. 
The albino in this photo is a mack termper broken stripe 

*Again breeding 2 jungle geckos together dose not always give you a stripe. You can’t look at as a recessive trait. 

Reverse Stripe
Breeding Stripes together you can get reverse stripes. 
A Reverse Stripe is just that, the color is just the reverse of a stripe. This means a Dark pigment stripe down the back flanked by two light pigment stripes. 

Mack snow reverse stripe. 


This reverse stripe has broken up into spots. 

Again on an albino it is the reverse. It would be a pigmentless stripe down the back flanked by light pigment stripes.


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## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

There is such a thing as a broken reverse stripe it would just be classified as the reverse stripe that is broken at some point. It would be really just a jungle, but it is more then just a jungle. 

Also again they can be classified as Bold Reverse stripes, Red reverse stripes, and Lavender Reverse stripes. 



Reverses stripes are a little more rare then other stripes. 
*Again breeding 2 Stripe geckos together dose not always give you a reverse stripe. You can’t look at as a recessive trait. 

“Patternless” Stripes.
This is the most confused pattern among new hobbyist. 
A “PATTERNLESS” STRIPE IS NOT A MURPHY’S PATTERNLESS.
A Murphy’s patternless is a simple recessive trait it looks like this 
Baby 

Adult

Albino (rainwater) Murphy’s Patty 
Baby 

Adult



Now a “Patternless” stripe is the result of crossing a Stripe and a Reverse Stripe together and getting a gecko that is showing both the stripe pattern and the reverse stripe pattern at the same time causing the gecko to look “patternless”. 

Baby slight reverse stripe



Adult



*Again not all of the stripe to reverse stripe crossed animals will be “patternless” stripe.
“Patternless” Stripes can have spots on their backs and will usually get them as they age. There is different degrees of how well “Patternless” Stripes look some will look totally patterless and others will have hints of pattern here and there.

Eye Pigment
Ok here is where it gets a little weird on us. How dose the eye pigment happen? Well the eye pigment is related to the pattern in a way. But once the eye pigment is expressed it is then acts kind of like a not so simple recessive. 

So lets break this down. The first time we saw the eye pigmentation it was for sure the coolest thing in leopard geckos the bad part was how did it happen and how did it work. There was a quest to have the all orange gecko. This is where a few key people came in. First was Ron Tremper of Leopardgecko.com (the godfather of leopard geckos) he was the first to make the Aptor. What the Aptor was, was an albino ‘patternless’ stripe. This geckos was what they were looking for a solid orange gecko. It was not understood how he got it at that point but he had it. From this Aptor breed back to its siblings, was hatched the first R.A.P.T.O.R and a few days later the first Eclipse. 

Meanwhile Alberto of A&M Geckos was working on a project where he was crossing his stripe and reverse stripe jungle giants to Red Stripes. From these geckos he was creating these solid orange non albino geckos. He coined them “patternless” stripes because that is the way they looked and they were from a stripe line and didn’t know what else to call them. 


Alberto got one of the first R.A.P.T.O.R.s. this is where he start to figure out the genetics of what was going on. The “patternless” stripe babies were split into two breeding groups.
One group of females was breed back to a “patternless” stripe male. 
So it was 
“patternless” stripe from (albino Reverse stripe X red stripe ) X “patternless” stripe from (albino Reverse stripe X red stripe )

From this cross geckos with pigment in the eyes hatched out. 

Group 2 was 
“patternless” stripe from (albino Reverse stripe X red stripe ) X R.A.P.T.O.R 

This also produced geckos with the eye pigment. 

So from these results it was known that the eye pigment was Unlocked from the crossing of these “patternless” stripe geckos. 

Proving that the eye pigment was acted recessive 
The next step was to see if the eye pigment would pass on to the next generation. 
In this breeding a super snow was used. What this did was see two things in the same breeding. One if the eye pigment from the super snow and the eye pigment from the Raptor were the same or different. The cross was done and all of the babies came out snow but no eye pigment. So this meant that the two eye pigments were different and that if the Raptor eye pigment was to pass on it would either have to be recessive or it was something to do with the pattern. 
When crossing the (super snow X Raptor) X (super snow X Raptor) geckos were produced that had the eye pigment and they were banded. This meant that it was not just the pattern that had an effect on the eyes. The eye pigment was acting like a recessive trait. 
So you can make the eye pigment from scratch by breeding “patternless” stripe X“patternless” stripe
Or by crossing two geckos that are “het” for the eye pigment. 
This also means that crossing a “het” for the eye pigment to a “patternless” stripe will also give you the eye pigment. 
So there is 3 ways to actually get eye pigment. The best way to look at it is that true “patternless” stripe geckos can always be looked at as “het” for eye pigmentation even though they might not have a parent that is showing the eye pigment. So that is where a lot of the confusion comes in. A lot of people think that is just cut and dry and well it is but not as simple as people think it is. 

The other weird thing that happens is eye pigment X eye pigment dose not always give you eye pigment. This is explained by the amount of eye pigment in the eyes. The eye pigment in the eyes can be looked at like this 

“All geckos with black eye pigment are eclipses, but not all eclipses have eye pigment.”

*For the sake of confusion in the next part when I say “eye pigment” you can plug in eclipse, raptor, radar, typhoon, ect ect….


And all of you will ask will if it is not showing “eye pigment”, how can you call it “eye pigment”. The reason is that the eye pigment varies in every gecko that is “eye pigment”.
This can range from solid like this raptor

to none at all like this mack eclipse.


If it is a partial it is called a snake eye. Like this one 


Ok and here is the big one guys 

Abyssinian
“An Abyssinian is just an “Eye Pigmented”gecko, with out the eye pigmented.” It is not its own morph it is a term that is coined to tell what it is. 
An Abyssinian is just an “eye pigmented” gecko that is not showing eye pigment but it will act genetically like an “eye pigmented” gecko. 
It is called something different to distinguish that it is actually something it is just not showing what it is to the extent of what we are looking for. So its not just a “het” for the “eye pigment” it actually is the “eye pigment” 



This type of gecko will also have a lighter then normal color to its eyes the reason for this is because it is lacking the dark pigment in its eyes it is lighter then normal and it is showing the red veins in the eye because the dark pigment is not covering the veins. Its kind of like a paradoxing of the eye if you will. It works that if the eye doesn’t have that “eye pigmentation” it has no pigmentation. 

So with these type of geckos again you look at them genetically like an “eye pigmented” gecko. When breeding one of these non “eye pigmented geckos to a “eye pigmented geckos you will get all eye pigmented geckos. 

Now wait with that last statement why is it when I cross my “eye pigmented” gecko to my “eye pigmented” gecko. Why do I get non “eye pigmented” geckos? That is because you got one of these geckos that is an “eye pigmented” geckos that is not showing the “eye pigment” 

When breeding these non “eye pigmented” geckos. It can be looked at as “eye pigmented” geckos. 

When selling these non “eye pigmented” geckos they should be sold as non “ eye pigmented “ just so that there is no confusion. 

Eye pigment can fade as well some geckos are born with eye pigment and then it will fade. Usually after 20 grams it stays. 

Also there are markers for “eye pigment”. Most “eye pigmantated” geckos will have but not always have the following :
1. A whiter then normal nose. This is where the white pigment will creep up onto the head further then it should. 
2. white coming up the legs. 
3. a weird spot on the head that is lacking pigment most of the time showing like it is a blueish tint 
This is a great gecko to see all 3 

Eclipse (eye pigment on a non albino)

Snake Eye (eye pigment that is not solid)

Abyssinian ( lack of eye pigment of a gecko that is an “eye pigmented” gecko)


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## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

R.A.P.T.O.R (Tremper albino with the eye pigment) these can come in all patterns but a true R.A.P.T.O.R is a “patternless” stripe pattern


Radar (Bell Albino with eye pigment) 

Banded and “patternless” radars 



Stealth (Mack Snow bell albino enigma with eye pigment)


Typhoon (Rainwater albino with eye pigment)

B.E.E. ( Black Eyed Enigma, Eclipse enigma)

Baby B.E.E. and eclipse

Black Hole ( Mack Snow eclipse enigma) 



Nova ( Tremper albino eye pigmented enigma) 

Dreamsickle ( Mack snow Tremper albino eye pigmented enigma) 


Total Eclipse( Mack super snow eclipse)



Super Black Hole ( Mack super snow eclipse enigma)


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## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

Baby super black hole left and baby total eclipse right. 



Super Raptor (Mack super snow Tremper albino eye pigmented)



Super Nova ( Mack super snow Tremper albino eye pigmented enigma) 



Some W/Y (White and Yellow crosses)

Eclipse W/Y 


















Gem Snow Eclipse W/Y Baby 









Gem Snow Eclipse W/Y (Full Body Baby)









Mack Snow Eclipse W/Y (baby) 

















Mack snow Eclipse W/Y 
















Gem Snow Raptor W/Y








Universe (baby)
















Universe Adult (bottom) Total Eclipse (Top)










there are also other types of eye pigment that are expressed in other morphs that have nothing to do with the Eclipse type of pigmentation 

these morphs are 

Blizzards and all combos,

Mack super snow and all combos


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## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

The Marble Eye

The Marble Eye is a new recessive genetic eye mutation in leopard geckos that causes the eye to have a three dimensional look. It first popped out in my Tremper (albino) sunglow line. Initially it seemed to be just an eye genetic but it is proving to have some hidden genes that I never thought would be expressed when crossed to different things.
It was almost a morph that we let slip away…










Discovering the Mutation

In 2006 while feeding some of the geckos left over from the White Plains show in New York, I noticed something a little different about one of the sunglows that hadn’t sold. Its eyes looked redder than normal. After taking a picture and zooming in on the eye I noticed it was like nothing else I had ever seen. The eye looked like what you’d see if you were looking through a kaleidoscope. I checked all the geckos from that breeding group and found two more. I frantically called Alberto Candolini (my friend and business partner at the time) and told him the news. We figured out who the parents were and that Alberto still owned them.


2007 – Proving Out the New Genetic

After finding this needle in a hay stack the next step was to prove out what it was. Unfortunately all of the geckos expressing the trait were female. But we did have the father and the two females that were in the group that they had hatched from. So in 2007 we bred the thought to be “father” to the daughters that were expressing the gene. One female didn’t breed her first year. The other two gave me duds for the first two clutches and started to get me nervous. Finally I started to get good eggs out of them. I hatched out one male and five females from the two females expressing the trait. None of them had any unusual eye pigment. The two females that were the thought to be “mothers” when bred to the “father” didn’t give me a single eye pigmented gecko. At this point I was thinking “well it would have been cool to make more”, but I just didn’t think it was going to happen.
2008 – One More Year

With the start of the 2008 season, I knew I was going to give it one more year to see what I could do with this project. I had the three original females that were expressing the eye pigment and I had 1.5 (one male, five females) of what I was calling “hets”. I was counting on it being a random genetic mutation that happened or somehow the “father” of the unusual eye pigment maybe just wasn’t the dad. So I bred the son “het” to the females that were expressing the trait and to the females that I was calling “hets”. I got eggs, eggs hatched, and poof, more marble eyed babies. So at this point I knew I could reproduce it and I knew it was acting recessive.










Now to prove it against the most famous eye pigmentation out there: the Eclipse gene.

2009 ... Testing


In order to prove that this was a trait that could be reproduced, I knew that I had to do three things. One, make sure that this was not related to the Eclipse gene at all. Two, out-cross for the benefit of the gene. There were no signs of anything negative but I didn’t want the gene pool to get too small. The third thing was to get the Tremper albino gene out of them so I could cross them to the other strains of albino.

The first was easy: Cross the Marble Eye to Eclipse and see what happens. I did this in two ways. I bred the original females to a Mack raptor. I also bred the male Marble Eye to some eclipse females. More than forty babies hatched and there were no eye pigmented geckos at all. At that point I knew there was no Eclipse gene at work in producing marble eyed geckos.

Steps two and three were easy as well. All I would have to do was to breed the Marble Eye to some subspecies. I chose the E. montanus for my out-crossing. By using these F1 geckos I could make sure that they were not related to any other geckos out there and I could start cleaning the Tremper gene out of them.

Another thing that I noticed about this new mutation was that the amount of marbling was very random. Some had tons of eye pigment and others very little. I’m sure there are even geckos that are not showing any eye pigment that for breeding purposes could be considered marble eyed individuals. So in that aspect I think that it works like the eclipse gene in that you can’t control the amount of eye pigmentation.










2010 – What the ….


The cross that was made between the Marble Eye and the E. montanus proved to be something special. At first I didn’t notice anything different about the babies. Then one day one caught my eye. Its head was grey; I hadn’t ever seen anything like it. I took some pictures and looked more closely at the eyes and the eyes were different as well. They had little black speckles all over them. This totally had me blown away because how could it have weird eyes when it was an out-crossed baby? It shouldn’t have weird eyes. This is where this gecko’s legend started to grow. As the weeks went on I watched this gecko very closely. The head got darker and darker. At one point it looked black. Then all of a sudden the head started to get lighter and the body started to get the grey color. It started as a stripe down the back and it started to come up the sides. At the time of writing this the gecko by far is the weirdest looking gecko I have ever seen.
Here are some progression pictures:


When it was first noticed








Eye shot









A few weeks later.









Here is when the dark coloring came in on the body












2011 next to a tang.










I did get to cross (marble eye x E. montanus) x (marble eye x E. montanus). This cross has given me some of the weirdest looking geckos. A lot of them have a darker appearance; some even have large dark spots. Whatever this cross did it is amazing.











Non Albino Marble eye









White Head Marble Eye










Work with the Marble Eye in 2011 continued with me crossing them to 3 other subspecies E.m. afghanicus, E.m. fasciolatus, and E. maculatius. As well as some other crosses. I felt it was important to out cross the Marble Eye as much as possible to ensure a strong bloodline.


Also is 2011 something weird popped out again from the line. What seems to be some type of snow that is not related to any other line of snow. 











The “snowish” looking ones have only come from one cross that I did with the Marble Eye. The way that these snowish geckos “popped” out it could be recessive, but I will think it is line bred, till proven other wise. This is not something that is because of the Marble Eye. In my opinion, it is from what I crossed the Marble Eye to, not the Marble Eye having a hidden gene or anything like that.

Disclaimer

All Marble Eye geckos have Hypo in the lineage, so because of it all Marble Eyes and hets can give you Hypo. This is one of the things that I am slowly working out of them is the Hypo gene. All Marble eyes should be banded or hypo, if they are a Jungle I would question them. I will not be crossing them into stripes or reverse stripes because of the mudding of the waters with Eclipse gene. It is my Opinion that most if not all stripes, Jungles, Reverse stripes, ect on the market need to be treated as if they are all poss het for the Eclipse trait. So because of this, and my ethical choice not to cross the two strains of eye pigmentation, Mine will always be banded or hypo (unless a random mutation of jungle occurs in the closed line). My Marble Eyes will always be the purest form of the mutation and be the cleanest line of them. All of the crosses that I wanted to do are done and from this point on it is a closed project and no new animals or genetics will be put into them. From this point on, it will only be all selectively bred “looks”, and combos that are already started that will come from this project. The new crosses and combos will all be shown when they done and I am happy with them. The other two albino strains are into the project and they are from clean lines that have not been muddied (finding them was the hard part).


There are also some other eye pigmentations floating around that might be a different but have to be test bred to see what they really are.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Hey Matt,

Go get some sleep now man!



:lol2:

Very informative for folks who weren't up to speed with the eye pigment side of things.....
:2thumb:


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## AnnieM (Nov 4, 2011)

That's fantastic, thanks for that. I Will probably need to read it several times before it sinks in but, very informative. :2thumb::2thumb:


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## woofay (Feb 12, 2012)

amazing article - thanks


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Thanks for posting that Matt. Just the other day I was in a "debate" about this very subject. It is funny how everyone thinks the eclipse is a simple recessive gene. LOL.

Thanks for taking the time to post this up.


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## Higgt4 (Apr 25, 2009)

an interesting read, just one question - what's a 'universe'?


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Higgt4 said:


> an interesting read, just one question - what's a 'universe'?


W&Y Supersnow eclipse....


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

Higgt4 said:


> an interesting read, just one question - what's a 'universe'?


a galaxy with w/y in it i thnk

its a marketing name the galaxy was named by ron basically to get more money and make the geckos more sought after


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## simy 22 (Oct 23, 2008)

thats a great read. Top work.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

MP reptiles said:


> a galaxy with w/y in it i thnk
> 
> its a marketing name the galaxy was named by ron basically to get more money and make the geckos more sought after


Actually it is the combination of visual genetics that gets the higher dollar, not the name. Keep your opinion about breeders to yourself and stick to the facts.


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

Gregg M said:


> Actually it is the combination of visual genetics that gets the higher dollar, not the name.


a super snow eclipse is not worth $1000


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

MP reptiles said:


> a super snow eclipse is not worth $1000


It is worth what ever someone is willing to pay for it #1.

#2 they are still a newish combo morph still rare in collections that looks differnt from a regular super snow. 

That and the combo of genetics is what makes it expensive, not the name. Again, lets talk facts, not your opinion.


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

Gregg M said:


> It is worth what ever someone is willing to pay for it #1.
> 
> #2 they are still a newish combo morph still rare in collections that looks differnt from a regular super snow.
> 
> That is what makes it expensive, not the name. Again, lets talk facts, not your opinion.


facts they get sold for $200 ish dollars by the urban gecko. And they overprice geckos anyway(my opinion)

That is the fact not my opinion it is a marketing name for extra money.

I wouldnt be saying this if i didnt fully believe it as i am good friends with ron and respect him greatly.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

MP reptiles said:


> facts they get sold for $200 ish dollars by the urban gecko. And they overprice geckos anyway(my opinion)


The Gallaxies are obviously different looking than the total eclipses.



MP reptiles said:


> That is the fact not my opinion it is a marketing name for extra money.


A morph name does not make more money. It is the genetics and looks that make money. If you buy a gecko because of its name, you are an idiot. LOL



MP reptiles said:


> I wouldnt be saying this if i didnt fully believe it as i am good friends with ron and respect him greatly.


Sure you are. It would be very easy for me to verify. Whats your real name?
And the way you talk about his marketing it does not seem like you are good friends with him.


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## lewisdark86 (May 9, 2010)

what a fantastic post thank's alot:notworthy:


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

Gregg M said:


> The Gallaxies are obviously different looking than the total eclipses.


Yes but not totally different.

And my name is marius and i talk with ron on a regular basis.

There are obviously differences but what im trying to say is that it is a marketing name which i know matt talked about in a video and out of his videos its one thing i agree with.

More power to ron if he can make more money because of renaming or naming something then great and i know that the geckos that come from him also demand a higher rice tag because of the quality before you mention that as any quality gecko should.


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## Ker (Feb 8, 2012)

Gregg M said:


> Whats your real name?


My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Ker said:


> My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.


Gladiator was a great movie.:2thumb:


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## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

Gregg M said:


> The Gallaxies are obviously different looking than the total eclipses.


Galaxies, Total Eclipse, and Mack Super Snow Eclipse are all the same thing. 

It was originally called a Total Eclipse. they were first produced way back in 2007 by My friend, mentor and old business partner Alberto (A&M Gecko) 

here is the link to the actually post A little disappointing but ........ - GeckoForums.net









In the post he actually talks about the disappointment because we thought at the time it would be all black, but it wasn't. The picture is actually the picture that goes with that post, but was long deleted. 


Just because someone slaps a new name on something doesn't mean they should  It was an already existing combo. I was one of the first to Call Ron about the "Galaxy", when If you guys remember he was claiming at first there was no snow in them. I knew Different and told him he should check the tubs again and sure enough ohhh now they are a super snow. Im not bashing Ron but it should never have been renamed. Now we have 3 names for the same gecko

Genetic name..................... .......Mack Super Snow Eclipse 
First trade name in 07 was ...........Total Eclipse
Ron's new name in 2011 is ............Galaxy 

All are the same thing.......


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

SaSobek said:


> Galaxies, Total Eclipse, and Mack Super Snow Eclipse are all the same thing.


Matt,
I know genetically they are the same. I never negated that fact. The ones that Ron produces are different looking in the way of the yellow "paradox" spot most of them display. Line bred or otherwise, it does make them slightly different. Rons seem to be more refined than TUGs in my opinion.


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

SaSobek said:


> Genetic name..................... .......Mack Super Snow Eclipse
> First trade name in 07 was ...........Total Eclipse
> Ron's new name in 2011 is ............Galaxy
> 
> All are the same thing.......


Thankyou


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## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

Gregg M said:


> Matt,
> I know genetically they are the same. The ones that Ron produces are different looking in the way of the yellow "paradox" spot most of them display. Line bred or otherwise, it does make them slightly different. Rons seem to be more refined than TUGs in my opinion.



hahah so the two of them that have had a random paradox spot (that is not genetic) makes his whole line look different? :bash: 

Really Greg come on you are smarter then that hahhaha 

he even says that he only hatched out I believe 2 with the "sun" 

these super eclipse can look different they can have more white on the face. that is just how the eclipse works some have more some have less. I am sure that Ron has sold Super Snow Eclipse as super snows. because there wasn't alot of white on the nose. I have seen them sold on his website as that. can you selectively breed for more white??? possibly but it is as random as how much eye pigment you get in an eclipse. Trust me I have bred tons of this stuff some look better then others. Its easy to market the best looking one as what they all look like but the truth is that they can very greatly.


They are more refined then TUG's because TUG got the Mack eclipse and a Super eclipse off of me like 18 months ago. he didnt do any work on them he just bred my geckos together. Just like the Crystal and the Cyclone. do you think he magically made that stuff? hell No he got the geckos off of me bred them for one year and changed the names. Was I Happy F%^& NO......it was all my work and that guy breeds my geckos together and then changes the names on them when I had already made them. You tell me that was not about Marketing.............. Bitter you bet I am. Hell before he got the geckos from me he was selling what his snows and his tangs now look. half of what he sells is stuff he got off of me W/Y, Marble eye, G project.................ect


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

SaSobek said:


> hahah so the two of them that have had a random paradox spot (that is not genetic) makes his whole line look different? :bash:
> 
> Really Greg come on you are smarter then that hahhaha
> 
> ...


Yes I suppose I am smarter than that. LOL. But to me, the "sun spot" is what makes it stand out from regular SSEs. I am not aware of how many were produced like that. I am sure it can be reproduced much like any other linebred trait. I mean the morph was named for the moon (white face), stars (cluster of small spots), and the sun (yellow paradox spot/s). On his web site, it says many of them show the trait. So if many is only 2 animals, than I agree with you totally. 

I know you have bred large anounts of awesome geckos. I get to see them at the shows we do.:2thumb:. If I needed info on eye traits and enigmas I would not ask anyone but you my friend. 

And what about those hardwickii?

I do not disagree with renaming an existing morph if it differs from the existing morph a little. I showed some of the first SHTCTB macks. JMG beat me to the naming though. LOL. Creansicles are still some of my favorite leo morphs out there.


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## Higgt4 (Apr 25, 2009)

SaSobek said:


> hahah so the two of them that have had a random paradox spot (that is not genetic) makes his whole line look different? :bash:
> 
> Really Greg come on you are smarter then that hahhaha
> 
> ...


 
Ah, I remember reading about this now...
Cheers : victory:


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## mariex4 (Oct 19, 2009)

loverly pics and very good info. Bet you were shatterd after all that lol .


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## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

This is a fantastic thread, very interesting reading!


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

great amount of info and a great read as always matt :no1: 


loved the youtube vids too some very impressive stuff : victory:


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Awesome thread!! Thanks!!


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## suez (Jul 8, 2007)

brilliant thread thanks for sharing Matt:no1:


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## yellrat (Jun 13, 2008)

Why have i only just noticed this brilliant thread great pictures tons of info :no1:.


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## Guest (May 6, 2012)

Fantastic thread, props to you


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## GazzaH (Apr 28, 2012)

lol that mack stripe one looks a bit like raw chicken 
gorgeous set of pictures though. enjoyed scrolling through those!:thumb:


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## starfox (Nov 21, 2010)

Totally fantastic!!
Such a good read, i've known about the progression of how the eye traits came around for a while (not so much the marble eye as the eclipse) but this is a brilliant thread, i'm surprised it hasn't got more comments.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Loved reading this thread 

Could someone please post pics of different strain of albino eyes - Tremper, Bell and Rainwater please. No eclipse or anything in them, just plain ole eyes so i can try to learn to tel the difference xx


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## pet (Aug 7, 2012)

*Lovely pictures*

Lovely lizards! Amazing colours


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## marc26 (Aug 12, 2012)

Good read that some good pictures, Im that bit closer to understanding the morphs.

When i first purchased my Leo Gecko I thought they were all same colour etc etc


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## haza7712 (Aug 24, 2012)

*wow*

thats awesome are they all yours!!!?: victory:


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## Beckred (Sep 27, 2012)

They look really cool keep up with the good work and I believe I watch you on YouTube and there very good and useful


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## Mikroberts (Nov 17, 2012)

my albino has a slight snake eye pigment but im clueless on the subject could some one explain whats wrong with it?


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## JohansonLeos (Sep 26, 2012)

Mikroberts said:


> my albino has a slight snake eye pigment but im clueless on the subject could some one explain whats wrong with it?


It means its probably got eclipse in it making it tremper eclipse  .


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## Mikroberts (Nov 17, 2012)

So its just the shape of the pupil in the eye basically I thought it was sumin dangerous


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## JohansonLeos (Sep 26, 2012)

Yeah it's fine just another genetic trait called eclipse!


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## zzxxy (Aug 28, 2011)

JohansonLeos said:


> It means its probably got eclipse in it making it tremper eclipse  .


This isn't technically correct. Eclipse is a stand alone trait. If an albino is an eclipse, It can still be any one of the other strains of Albino ( Bell or Rainwater ) Whilst it probably is Tremper as this is the most common but that doesn't mean that it is. We'd need body and close up shots of the eye in order to confirm that it is indeed Tremper. Unless you are psychic of course! 

Daz


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## JohansonLeos (Sep 26, 2012)

zzxxy said:


> This isn't technically correct. Eclipse is a stand alone trait. If an albino is an eclipse, It can still be any one of the other strains of Albino ( Bell or Rainwater ) Whilst it probably is Tremper as this is the most common but that doesn't mean that it is. We'd need body and close up shots of the eye in order to confirm that it is indeed Tremper. Unless you are psychic of course!
> 
> Daz


No, not psychic, looked on his albums : victory: . It's a tremper


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## zzxxy (Aug 28, 2011)

Like i said, We'd need a closeup eye shot to be 100% and there isn't one in the Album


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## ayrshire bob (Oct 24, 2012)

Is there anyway to get the pics back up? They aren't working anymore


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## KrazyKate (Mar 24, 2013)

ayrshire bob said:


> Is there anyway to get the pics back up? They aren't working anymore


I'm really glad someone else can't see the photos, I can't wait to have a look and have a really good read. Steep learning curve this gecko lark! Would really appreciate if you could get them back up again.


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## tayrawr14 (Apr 4, 2013)

KrazyKate said:


> I'm really glad someone else can't see the photos, I can't wait to have a look and have a really good read. Steep learning curve this gecko lark! Would really appreciate if you could get them back up again.


I'd also like to see the pics if someone can put them back up?


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## Emma30 (Apr 18, 2008)

I spoke to the op, and he said the website that hosted the pics went down and doesn't exist anymore!

He said it will take a while for him to redo the pics and he is very busy at the moment, so we all just have to be patient :lol2::lol2:


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## SaSobek (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes sorry guys super busy with babies and eggs right now but i will get it redone at some point I promise.


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## gashead 80 (Jan 13, 2013)

My female has one eclipse eye and one normal eye, is this normal?


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## WASSY666 (Jan 3, 2012)

*Stripe pattern*

Hi all, 
Hopefully from reading info from matt correctly, am I right in saying if I breed another jungle pattern with my male jungle albino I will eventually get a stripe pattern. It this just a random thing or is it hour selective line breeding

Please advise

Cheers

Mick


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## Dollymix (Aug 12, 2013)

is it just me here or can anybody elts not see the pics, i'd love to see them , but the just little boxes with x's in?? :hmm:


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## KingRedbeardI (Aug 27, 2013)

Dollymix said:


> is it just me here or can anybody elts not see the pics, i'd love to see them , but the just little boxes with x's in?? :hmm:


If the pics are no longer visible I don't see the point in the thread being active anymore.

Can no one replace the pics by any chance?
:whistling2:


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## vicki997 (Mar 28, 2014)

Really fantastic thread


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## hongkong1234 (Apr 13, 2014)

hi,
welcome to this forum site,and Eye Pigment in Leopard geckos...Warning Alot of Pictures................








 Top Ten website


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## NB Royals (Aug 10, 2011)

Just wondered if this thread will be getting the pictures redone think it would be very helpful to a lot of people including myself

Thanks Bryan 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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