# Death of my A.Versi sling



## DrummyGooders (Aug 18, 2013)

So last night I discovered my 1cm L2 Avicularia Versicolour in death curl. To say I'm gutted is a massive understatement. I don't like the idea of putting this down to "SADS" (sudden avic death syndrome). I would like to know if there's anything I done wrong so I can improve how I keep my other Ts / slings. 

I had her for about a month n half. About once a week I put half of a pre-killed micro meal worm in. Only saw him munch on it once. Nearly always on his little stick I put in. The enclosure was a bit big for him but thought it wouldn't be a problem. He was in a little plastic jar with a screw lid and plenty of ventilation holes. I didn't keep it over humid but there was always moisture in there. I generally gave it a light misting on one side so there was always a wet patch and dry patch for him to choose between, I done this once or twice a week. With heating I just kept it at room temp to start with, it was generally around 20-22 degrees celius. I got a few more slings since then and decided that they probably need a little more heat. I had a old glass viv that wasn't in use so I put all my sling tubs in there with a heat mat underneath, the temp varied between 22-25 degrees celsius in there. I have read since that IF using a heat mat then put it on the side so the Ts can burrow down to keep cool if they want. 

The weirdest thing was, it died with a baby crick in his legs. I put the crick in on Sunday and saw him pounce on it straight away (first live prey I saw him eat) Seemed to capture and munch on it fine. The next day I checked on him and looked for the food bolus to remove but saw that he was still clutching it in his legs and was on his stick so I thought just leave it another day, exactly the same thing next eve, then last night I discovered him in death curl, he was on his back with the dead crick on top of him. Even tho it was plainly obvious that he was dead I didn't want to believe it and said to myself "if he's still like in the morn then he's definitely dead". 

There's a few photos below so you can see the enclosure and set up I had him in. I did add a 2nd piece of wood about a week before he died as well which isn't in any of the photos. 


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/members/drummygooders-albums-my-t-s-picture206445-avicularia-versicolour-l2-jules-her.jpg

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/members/drummygooders-albums-my-t-s-picture206218-avicularia-versicolour-l2-jules.jpg

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ure206434-avicularia-versicolour-l2-jules.jpg

So what are peoples thoughts on this? Too much space for him which can cause stress, or the change in temperature going from room temp to my "slingcubator". Or even adding the extra wood or maybe all of this adding up to too much stress?

Any opinions given are greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
Alex


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

SADS is a load of rubbish. There is no such thing.

Either it died of an underlying problem with the spider or bad husbandry.

If there was always moisture in there then that suggests a lack of ventilation and probably the reason it died


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## HowseR21 (Nov 5, 2011)

^ agreed! SADS doesn't exist. Cross ventilation is vital to keeping Avics, too much moisture + little ventilation causes stale air and will kill 

Sorry you lost it though, we learn from our mistakes


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## NikDan (Aug 31, 2013)

Sorry to hear you lost your sling but I have to agree SADS is a load of rubbish in future id keep avics dry just with a a small waterbowl.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Just looked at your pics & from what i can see the substrate was way too dry to create enough humidity in that tub. There didn't appear to be enough holes to create a good air flow either. As people have said, many keepers lose an Avic & say it must be down to SADS when in fact 99% of all cases of Avic death will of been something the keeper did or didn't do :whistling2:. Learn from this, make sure the substrate doesn't completely dry out & add more ventilation holes so there's plenty of ventilation in the tub(you can always tape some up if you do too many). Keep tiny slings in smaller pots so finding prey is easier for them & upgrade as they grow.


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## DrummyGooders (Aug 18, 2013)

Thanks a lot guys. Yeah I agree about SADS. I put that to make sure i didn't get any replies just saying "It's SADS - nothing you can do, it happens" It's just an easy excuse to put the blame away from the owner. I wanna learn from my mistakes and try to make sure this doesn't happen again. 

I knew about cross ventilation and thought there was plenty of vent holes in there. I put about 12 in the lid, and 3 rings of holes at different heights on the sides. Maybe not enough then? 

I have a A.Kwitara at home so will be adding a load more holes to his enclosure tonight! 

Any thoughts about the excess space?


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't really think having too much space should be a problem as long as the conditions are right, and the spider has somewhere to feel snug and safe, and prey is dropped in close proximity to it.

I've said this in other threads, but in regards to ventilation - Pipe gauze! 50p per pack of 5!

It does dry out faster, but I only put a few drops of water in maybe once a week - this is how I keep all my arboreal slings, including an Avic purpurea, which I have heard have a particular habit of dying, and mine seems to be doing fine.

There are vents at substrate level on one side, and higher up on the other side. I figure that seeing as humidity is in the air, and is created by water evaporating, and is higher when water is present in warmer environments, and that hot air rises, this should allow this air to circulate/escape well, whilst retaining a degree of humidity as I don't let the substrate become bone dry. But I don't really have it moist/damp either. I just feed steadily and pop some drops of water on the substrate and on the webbing once a week.


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## buggs (Dec 28, 2010)

Ventilation and High humidity are a difficult combo,I think what the other users are trying to say is to have humidity that starts off high and gradually falls off in a cycle.Daily misting is the answer,not too soggy not too dry : victory:


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

buggs said:


> Ventilation and High humidity are a difficult combo,I think what the other users are trying to say is to have humidity that starts off high and gradually falls off in a cycle.Daily misting is the answer,not too soggy not too dry : victory:


I'd have to politely disagree, as I don't think misting is the answer at all, not least because it's a pain to have to do it all the time, and it freaks the spider out...

If you mist, then it will provide a small amount of water for a short time, on the substrate and on the sides, although I appreciate that this depends on how heavily you mist.

I just feel that water from a pipette/syringe soaked into the substrate will do more for raising humidity (and not stressing the spider), as it takes longer for the water to evaporate as it is deeper within the substrate. For example, when it rains heavily for long periods of time, water soaked into soil remains present for long periods of time, especially in shaded forests - which when combined with a warm environment will raise humidity. But still, none of this is happening in a tub - it's still outside with circulating air - which is why I feel that it's best to have more air circulation, but with damp-ish substrate.

But I haven't actually done any experiments with any of this, so am just going on theories...


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## DrummyGooders (Aug 18, 2013)

Adam B Jones said:


> I'd have to politely disagree, as I don't think misting is the answer at all, not least because it's a pain to have to do it all the time, and it freaks the spider out...
> 
> If you mist, then it will provide a small amount of water for a short time, on the substrate and on the sides, although I appreciate that this depends on how heavily you mist.
> 
> ...


Adam you are a legend my friend! Many thanks to all for sharing your experiences with me.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

DrummyGooders said:


> Adam you are a legend my friend! Many thanks to all for sharing your experiences with me.


Well, I'd say that there are many ways to achieve roughly the same thing, and I should also have pointed out that the misting thing is more of a pain with slings as I feel it freaks them out more as they are in a small tub. I'm also not saying that daily misting will do any harm as long as it is the right amount, it's just the way I do it seems to work for me, and my slings seem to be doing well.

I actually prefer "watering" substrate to misting in larger tanks, mainly as it's quicker and you don't get residue on the sides.

But regardless of methods/opinions of ways to achieve humidity/need for humidity, it does seem that the real key, particularly with avics is to provide loads of ventilation and the pipe gauze seems to do the trick.

I think it's all relative to an extent - If you have less holes, keep it drier. But I personally prefer the idea of fresher air in my spider tanks in general, and think that gauze does more to achieve this than pin holes.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

I keep my sensitive slings like versis and pulchers when they are small in tall tubs - plastic drink beaker size. I make no holes. I put in a reasonable amount of substrate and fake leaves, and over the top I stretch a square cut from ladies tights and fasten round with a rubber band. I don't let the substrate dry out, spraying down one side. Its easy to spray multiple tubs as you can spray through the tights. If the sling is inclined to run out when you open the top then tape round 3/4 of the tights to the outside of the tub to keep them in place.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

Sylvi said:


> I keep my sensitive slings like versis and pulchers when they are small in tall tubs - plastic drink beaker size. I make no holes. I put in a reasonable amount of substrate and fake leaves, and over the top I stretch a square cut from ladies tights and fasten round with a rubber band. I don't let the substrate dry out, spraying down one side. Its easy to spray multiple tubs as you can spray through the tights. If the sling is inclined to run out when you open the top then tape round 3/4 of the tights to the outside of the tub to keep them in place.


That'd do the trick  Do you not like to have anything in the way of holes in the sides too?


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## sage999 (Sep 21, 2008)

I keep my avic slings in side ventilated pots with fully meshed lids. Ventilation is key and over watering is as dangerous as under watering. I also believe that SADS is a load of nonsense. I have lost the odd avic sling over the years for no apparent reason but the same can be said for several other species.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

All my avics are kept pretty much bone dry couple of drops of water once or twice a week . Damp still air is a killer.
It may not have been the problem in this case but something to think about .


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## DrummyGooders (Aug 18, 2013)

Adam B Jones said:


> Well, I'd say that there are many ways to achieve roughly the same thing, and I should also have pointed out that the misting thing is more of a pain with slings as I feel it freaks them out more as they are in a small tub. I'm also not saying that daily misting will do any harm as long as it is the right amount, it's just the way I do it seems to work for me, and my slings seem to be doing well.
> 
> I actually prefer "watering" substrate to misting in larger tanks, mainly as it's quicker and you don't get residue on the sides.
> 
> ...


Adam mate where do you get your pipe gauzes from? Sounds like the most direct method to get cross ventilation going on. 

I think your right about the relativity of it. Everyone has a different method that work them. Obviously what I was doin didn't work. But we live and learn.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Always when i reared Avics i used some kind of mesh on one side of the tub. I never lost one due to this. I also kept them relatively dry and gave them a good spray once a week then left to dry out naturally.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

Adam B Jones said:


> That'd do the trick  Do you not like to have anything in the way of holes in the sides too?


Sometimes I did.....if the tub they went into already had holes, but with or without mine always did well. I bought 6 versi slings year before last - lost one, sold 4 and still have the last one. She is a good size now. 

My problem was always making the holes too big and underestimating the size of hole naughty slings can squeeze through, so no holes work well for me! Don't use laddered or snagged tights though!

You will loose the odd sling, they don't always all survive, especially sensitive varieties like avics. If you are paying a lot for postage try to buy 3 slings if you can afford it.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

DrummyGooders said:


> Adam mate where do you get your pipe gauzes from? Sounds like the most direct method to get cross ventilation going on.
> 
> I think your right about the relativity of it. Everyone has a different method that work them. Obviously what I was doin didn't work. But we live and learn.


There's a shop near me which sells them, any tobacconist or head shop should have them, but if there's nothing like that near you, I'm sure you could order them online for pennies...

I just use a soldering iron to melt a hole just smaller than the gauze, and stick the gauze on to the hole before the melted plastic sets. Carefully! If its not firmly stuck you can touch the iron tip on to the edge of the gauze, and it will bind the plastic through the mesh on both sides... 

Then when it's cooled do your best to push the mesh out from the inside with your finger to check it aint budging


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

No where near enough air holes sadly, from what I can see, when you're setting up for a versi, put how ever many air holes you think it needs in the tub, then double it, my versi's pot has rows and rows of holes, i don't think I could fit many more in, they need so much ventilation. If there wasn't enough this could cause mould and all sorts of problems.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

This may sound absolutely bizarre, and I may be being completely insane, but if you put the lid of the newly made tub over your mouth once it is all cooled (and obviously it must be clean) before adding anything, and can breath in and out through it with ease due to the holes/vents, that suggests to me that there is very free movement of air.

This has nothing to do with spiders breathing obviously, but I just feel if you struggle to take in air through it, then perhaps it could do with more ventilation.


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## sage999 (Sep 21, 2008)

Same as above. My son asked me if I was trying to play a tune with one of my tubs the other week.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Putting your mouth over ventilation areas to check how well air flows is summat I do also, and it can really teach you a lot.

However, that actually looked like enough ventilation to me. My _A. versicolor_ that I got as a 1cm sling just matured last week and I've always kept him in stuff with ventilation like that, though I usually put a double layer of holes going half way around the top and another just above substrate level at the bottom, on the other side. However, you really can't have too much ventilation. If they wouldn't chew through it I'd say keep them in mesh cages.

Drier is better than too damp for avics I seem to find, just make sure they can access water if they need it. Let the substrate dry out between waterings, but not for long! Like a day at most for a small sling if you can help it. They do ok in the dry, they just need access to a water source to top up their moisture levels. Give them damp substrate to drink from, and give them a mist maybe weekly so they have water droplets on the side to drink from.

Another possible contributing factor though is lack of webbing sites :/

You had a stick in there with him. Many avics, even as small slings can take their time to settle. An avic that refuses to web up seems to be much more likely to die. Is it because the web provides security that helps keep them unstressed? Is it that they will web up when they find a place with suitable conditions, and so the lack of webbing shows that your parameters are off? Is it just a sign that the spider is already not doing well? I dunno. 

However, if you get another, may I suggest giving it summat proper to web up on? Some deeply creviced bark, a bit of split bamboo. Take a thick bit from the garden, cut a section between two nodes and then put two notches in it about 120 degrees apart. Fit a sturdy knife or summat into the notches and twist and it should split down the grain, leaving you with a partly open tube that arboreals adore to web up in. A halved length of pvc piping or a fake leaf, curved around also works. 

Wild avics web up in tree holes, bark fissures, behind loose bark, in bromeliad leaves, and in the corners between two walls or a roof and the wooden beams. Give them summat to scrunch down into and web around to help them feel secure and comfortable. Lower stress usually correlates with lower mortality. They eat better and seem to survive better.



This is looking up at the inner corner of where two walls meet, up by the ceiling.



A mature male, holing up for the day in the back of a book-case. They like corners.


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## DrummyGooders (Aug 18, 2013)

Well here's my first attempt. Not bad considering I think. Didn't have a soldering iron so went for the hot nail approach and couldn't get the pipe gauze on in time so went for the glue gun. Seemed to work ok albeit a bit a messy lol.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

It'll be grand as long as they are stuck !

You are going to hate me for saying this now you've put the sling in the enclosure, but I'd have stuck a few more on... Partly because it looks as if your tub is bigger than the ones I use, so looks as though it could do with some more, just to be on the safe side... Do you have some on the top as well?


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## DrummyGooders (Aug 18, 2013)

Not at the mo but that's easily arranged. Yeah they're well and truly stuck. Gave them a good poke with my tweezers and they're not budging.


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## Adam B Jones (Jan 17, 2011)

Sweet. I'd stick some in the top too. Or just put lots of little holes if you can't be bothered with the faff of the pipe gauze.

I made three pots up today for some P. subfusca slings, and I must admit it is quite time consuming!

The plastic on the pots I use for slings sets really fast too, but with a soldering iron you can place the gauze on and then push the iron tip to the gauze to "weld" it through. I must have been thinking of a different tub I'd done and confused myself when I mentioned you can stick the gauze to the already melted plastic, sorry about that!

Anyway, jobs a good un


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## kingkelly (May 14, 2012)

Some brilliant information on this thread, very interesting reading.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

Adam B Jones said:


> I'd have to politely disagree, as I don't think misting is the answer at all, not least because it's a pain to have to do it all the time, and it freaks the spider out...
> 
> If you mist, then it will provide a small amount of water for a short time, on the substrate and on the sides, although I appreciate that this depends on how heavily you mist.
> 
> ...


This. I never mist any of my forest scorpions despite the fact they require 90%+ humidity in most cases. I just keep the substrate damp and they all do excellently.


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