# rabbit question



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

right....we have two house rabbits (dwarf lops) that are around 4-5 months old, they are cute lil critters and have been doing great up til now!...they were SUPPOSED to be two females! but it turns out they are male and female! the male is going sex mad on the female and she is NOT impressed! they were really scrapping like mad earlier! we are going to split them up ASAP...but wondered if anything comes of the breeding do you think the female will be ok? also they are brother and sister! which is also a concern


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

If they were scrapping, it is likely the female was not receptive.

A female rabbit has to be receptive, and lift, for the male to mate her.

If you do find she is pregnant and has a litter, pop on here and you will gets LOADS of advice: victory:

I for one breed rabbits and am on here every day.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

well she has been laying low and raising her back end a bit for him....but he has been hassling her all night which is why i think they were fighting, they seem to be ok now, and will be splitting them up tomorrow...will let you know what happens, not had anything to do with rabbits breeding wise....will it be easy to tell if she is pregnant?


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> right....we have two house rabbits (dwarf lops) that are around 4-5 months old, they are cute lil critters and have been doing great up til now!...they were SUPPOSED to be two females! but it turns out they are male and female! the male is going sex mad on the female and she is NOT impressed! they were really scrapping like mad earlier! we are going to split them up ASAP...but wondered if anything comes of the breeding do you think the female will be ok? also they are brother and sister! which is also a concern


 He will hassle her even when she is pregnant and nursing the babies. Why not just get him neutered and stop further problems as she will be permanently stressed out by his attention.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> He will hassle her even when she is pregnant and nursing the babies. Why not just get him neutered and stop further problems as she will be permanently stressed out by his attention.


they are being split up tomorrow...but my partner did want to breed them at some point, we were going to get a male and she wanted a litter from both then we were going to get the male done (as they are only pets really) but that plan is out the window now, so we will get him done....our main immediate concern is for the female IF she is indeed pregnant.


----------



## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

i always get mine neutered. males and females too. i had the current male first, just got him done, and he took mixi. nursed him through, but he had lost his wee pal to the mixi, and got him another female for company. she unfortunately started bullying him. so got her done too, and they absolutely love each other now. they sit for hours grooming each other.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

You must make sure the babies go to PET homes (because they will be inbred) if she is pregnant.

You will notice a change in her behaviour and in circa 30 - 32 days she will start to pull fur to build a nest.

If she pulls fur in 14 days, she MAY be having a phantom pregnancy.

You may not notice her gain weight or look pregnant until the last week.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

butterfly said:


> i always get mine neutered. males and females too. i had the current male first, just got him done, and he took mixi. nursed him through, but he had lost his wee pal to the mixi, and got him another female for company. she unfortunately started bullying him. so got her done too, and they absolutely love each other now. they sit for hours grooming each other.


yeah i know what you mean, these two are really close and spend hours grooming each other too and playing etc...this behaviour literally happened this evening and now they seem best of friends again, so hopefully getting him done will be an end to any future problems...but until we can sort out getting him done, splitting them up is the only option for now.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

Pouchie said:


> You must make sure the babies go to PET homes (because they will be inbred) if she is pregnant.
> 
> You will notice a change in her behaviour and in circa 30 - 32 days she will start to pull fur to build a nest.
> 
> ...


ok thanks a lot for the advice, will keep a close eye on her, the babies will indeed only go as purely pets for the reasons you have stated


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

here are the two tear aways in question...the dark one is the (now known as) male! and the lighter one the female....they are a lot bigger than this now as this was when we first got them....


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)




----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> they are being split up tomorrow...but my partner did want to breed them at some point, we were going to get a male and she wanted a litter from both then we were going to get the male done (as they are only pets really) but that plan is out the window now, so we will get him done....our main immediate concern is for the female IF she is indeed pregnant.


 Why would you want to breed them? There are zillions of neglected and unwanted rabbits all over the country and in rescues.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Why would you want to breed them? There are zillions of neglected and unwanted rabbits all over the country and in rescues.


because that is what my partner wanted to do...i realise there are lots in rescues etc, but she only wanted to have one litter from each...and we know lots of people and have a large extended family etc so any babies will/would have most likely go to them anyway.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Just to say, do keep an eye on your doe as she looks very young (too young for a first litter, best age 6 months). 

Also, sounds silly but have you actually checked the male IS definitely a male?

Female rabbits do mount each other.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

Pouchie said:


> Just to say, do keep an eye on your doe as she looks very young (too young for a first litter, best age 6 months).
> 
> Also, sounds silly but have you actually checked the male IS definitely a male?
> 
> Female rabbits do mount each other.


those pics are a few months old from when we first got them, and its deffinately breeding, he is doing all the right movements if you get what i mean...not just mounting in a dominance type way...i did try checking myself on their sexes when i got them and they did look the same...but then i am no expert and have been told it is very hard until they are sexually mature.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> those pics are a few months old from when we first got them, and its deffinately breeding, he is doing all the right movements if you get what i mean...not just mounting in a dominance type way...i did try checking myself on their sexes when i got them and they did look the same...but then i am no expert and have been told it is very hard until they are sexually mature.


 
Oh dear, we are going to have to get a little graphic I'm afraid...

Dominance mounting does involve humping.. Did 'he' actually grunt and roll off?


----------



## Titch1980 (Mar 6, 2006)

yeah my sister has one of each sex and the girl often humps the boy, including her tail going rather quickly from side to side, lol


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

he basically started off by mounting her and then when their bits were lined up he started humping like a madman! she just laid very still and close to the floor...then the second time she wasnt having ANY of it! she had a right go at him! he didnt retaliate at first and tried again! she then had another go and this time he fought back! then she just laid very still looking rather peed off! he left her for about 15min or so then went back for more! this time she laid very still and flat and raised her rear end...didnt resist at all, he did grab her scruff whilst doing it, then he did it again a few minuites later and it was the same scenario...they are fine now and he is leaving her alone and they are just curled up together....


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> he basically started off by mounting her and then when their bits were lined up he started humping like a madman! she just laid very still and close to the floor...then the second time she wasnt having ANY of it! she had a right go at him! he didnt retaliate at first and tried again! she then had another go and this time he fought back! then she just laid very still looking rather peed off! he left her for about 15min or so then went back for more! this time she laid very still and flat and raised her rear end...didnt resist at all, he did grab her scruff whilst doing it, then he did it again a few minuites later and it was the same scenario...they are fine now and he is leaving her alone and they are just curled up together....


Unless he falls off (usually accompanied by some sort of vocalisation or grunt) there was no successful mating.

Could still be two females unless you have checked their genatalia. 

Easy to sex at that size if you are confident enough to hold them upside-down.

Don't go by mounting, either sex will mount either sex.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

Pouchie said:


> Unless he falls off (usually accompanied by some sort of vocalisation or grunt) there was no successful mating.
> 
> Could still be two females unless you have checked their genatalia.
> 
> ...


ok i will take another look at them both tomorrow (am off to bed now) and try sexing them again...i hope you are right and they are both female, but that will mean i may need to get them neutered as i dont want them fighting obviously...will let you know how i get on tomorrow....and again thanks for the help and advice :notworthy:


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

I've never got how people who sell rabbits can't sex them! I can sex at a few days old lol Still amazes me that others can't and at 6 weeks it's really clear to see.

Turn both over and give us your best photo of their 'bits'
at 5 months you really should see some balls on the male lol


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> I've never got how people who sell rabbits can't sex them! I can sex at a few days old lol Still amazes me that others can't and at 6 weeks it's really clear to see.
> 
> Turn both over and give us your best photo of their 'bits'
> at 5 months you really should see some balls on the male lol


 
:lol2: yup the balls are a dead giveaway.


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Pimperella said:


> at 5 months you really should see some balls on the male lol


I was just gonna say that! By this age he should have a visible scrotum, which is very obvious on a rabbit, which she won't have!!



Ian.g said:


> we were going to get a male and she wanted a litter from both then we were going to get the male done (as they are only pets really) but that plan is out the window now, so we will get him done.


Can I also say that if you decide not to breed the female you should really have her neutered too. Female rabbits are very prone to cancer of the uterus. Neutering has been found to extend their life by quite a few years, so well worth it.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

feorag said:


> Can I also say that if you decide not to breed the female you should really have her neutered too. Female rabbits are very prone to cancer of the uterus. Neutering has been found to extend their life by quite a few years, so well worth it.


Absolutely. Last time I checked the stat was *over 80%* of does who do not breed die from uterine cancer.

Breed, or spay.


----------



## stucoady (May 23, 2008)

For more expert advise check out Rabbits United Forum. I too do not agree with theneed to breed when there are so many needing to be rehomed. We have 8 and all from rehoming centres.


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I think it was 60% when I researched it quite a few years ago, so the figure is rising - not very reassuring!!!


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Why would you want to breed them? There are zillions of neglected and unwanted rabbits all over the country and in rescues.


Same could be said about dog breeders :whistling2:


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

feorag said:


> I think it was 60% when I researched it quite a few years ago, so the figure is rising - not very reassuring!!!


Or they may be including other reproductive conditions in the 80%. Terrible figure none the less and one which warrants the operation.


----------



## wizzasmum (Mar 6, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> He will hassle her even when she is pregnant and nursing the babies. Why not just get him neutered and stop further problems as she will be permanently stressed out by his attention.


He will still mate with her. It only stops the pregnancy


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Surely neutering in any male animal removes the testes and therefore removes the need to mate???
Unless the male is only vasectomised then he shouldn't want to mount in any other way than to show dominance!!!!!

Anyway as I read the thread I thought it might be female dominance occurring as they are the perfect age to become 'bunnies from hell'!!!!!

By the way the testes arent' the same as in dogs and cats, in case the OP didn't know, they appear like 'sausages' along the groinal area at each side of the genitals. Also I've found if you push gently on the stomach just above the penis of the male he will quite happily 'show' you what he has.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

ok have just checked them and i cant see or feel any majorly obvious testicles! i pulled the fur back and cant see much at all really....the darker one deffinately looks to have something there and it seems to protrude, but the white and fawn one doesnt seem to have anything poking out to the extent of the other??? this is NOT easy as to my untrained eye there is very little difference...and i certainly cant see an obvious huge set of balls as one poster suggested on either of them :lol2: but they do seem different....


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

saxon said:


> Surely neutering in any male animal removes the testes and therefore removes the need to mate???
> Unless the male is only vasectomised then he shouldn't want to mount in any other way than to show dominance!!!!!
> 
> Anyway as I read the thread I thought it might be female dominance occurring as they are the perfect age to become 'bunnies from hell'!!!!!
> ...


 
I agree. Sounds like dominance mounting to me too. I would have thought before they are split up it be important to firstly check he is definitely a he.

You wouldn't want to split them only to find you then have two lonely females. They would struggle to go back together at that age and you would have even more scrapping.

I hear from lots of people who panick and split animals when all they were trying to do is establish a heirachy. 

Of course if it is definitely a male then he needs to be neutered regardless because he is her brother.


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

All the rabbits at our Sanctuary are spayed or castrated then we bond pairs of them. The male is fertile until 6 weeks after castration


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> ok have just checked them and i cant see or feel any majorly obvious testicles! i pulled the fur back and cant see much at all really....the darker one deffinately looks to have something there and it seems to protrude, but the white and fawn one doesnt seem to have anything poking out to the extent of the other??? this is NOT easy as to my untrained eye there is very little difference...and i certainly cant see an obvious huge set of balls as one poster suggested on either of them :lol2: but they do seem different....


 
you posted at the same time lol

ok... you will need to press down either side of the genetalia gently. Both sexes protude I'm afraid.

What you are looking for in a female is a slit running down towards the anus, in a male the 'protruding' part will look more like a conical shaft with an opening at the tip, as opposed to an opening running toward the anus in a line shape.

If you can try to get some sort of photo we can try to tell from that if you are not sure.


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

saxon said:


> By the way the testes arent' the same as in dogs and cats, in case the OP didn't know, they appear like 'sausages' along the groinal area at each side of the genitals. Also I've found if you push gently on the stomach just above the penis of the male he will quite happily 'show' you what he has.


:lol2: That's why I said scrotum rather than balls! I thought he might end up looking for little round balls like on a dog or cat!!

As already mentioned male rabbits remain fertile for 6 weeks after castration and they will happily continue to hump for that period and even longer until the message gets through!!!


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

ok i am uploading some (not so great) pics as we speak...see what you guys think, i will say the darker one seems to have been doing a lot of scenting? by rubbing his chin over everything...will be back with pics in a mo


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Sexing Rabbits try this link too

the 4 week old pics show how similar they can look, like you say, to the untrained eye.

the adult ones will give you a good idea of the difference though: victory:

I will take a look at your pics when they load.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

ok here is the best pic i could get of the darker one..










his/her tail is at the bottom of pic


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

and i have two pics of the lighter ones bits lol


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Looks like a male to me from the first pic!!!!!!

The second is a female.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

saxon said:


> Looks like a male to me from the first pic!!!!!!
> 
> The second is a female.


 
Is it just me or can I see a testicle on the second pic?

What do you think Dawn?


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

i thought I could see a testicle aswell.


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I wondered if that was the beginnings of the testicles growing, because like Saxon said they look more like sausages and run dow either side of the genitalia. There's a definite pinkness there on the second rabbit in the first photograph that made me wonder if it was a male, but it's not so obvious on the second photograph!!!

Mind, I haven't sexed a baby or young rabbit for over 40 years, so don't rely on me!!


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> Is it just me or can I see a testicle on the second pic?
> 
> What do you think Dawn?


I can't say I see testicles but as it's not a 'straight on pic' like the first one I suppose they could be both males!!!!

ian,

Does the second rabbits 'protrusion'(sp) have a slit or not?????

I'm still going to first one being male and the second being female.

Damn site easier when they are in your hands though!!!!!!


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

we will have another look now...sorry the pics arent great but its not easy lol


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

What I mean is, if thats not a finger it is a testicle :lol2:

I think the first is female too so we need a third opinion cuz I'm opposite to Dawn lol

I'll put my cock on the block (excuse the pun) and say darker one female, lighter one male.

Great pics but it is still tough as you have not pressed down to exposed the genitals but I'm going by the angle and the testicle :2thumb:


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

feorag said:


> I wondered if that was the beginnings of the testicles growing, because like Saxon said they look more like sausages and run dow either side of the genitalia. There's a definite pinkness there on the second rabbit in the first photograph that made me wonder if it was a male, but it's not so obvious on the second photograph!!!
> 
> Mind, I haven't sexed a baby or young rabbit for over 40 years, so don't rely on me!!


I've not sexed a 'young' male for year either.

I would have thought by that age though the testicles would have been downright apparetn though??????

I have 5 month old BG and he has huge testicles.


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Just another link to see if it helps.

Google Image Result for http://www.geocities.com/dutchrabbitinfo/adultbuck.jpg


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

saxon said:


> I've not sexed a 'young' male for year either.
> 
> I would have thought by that age though the testicles would have been downright apparetn though??????
> 
> I have 5 month old BG and he has huge testicles.


 
aha but I do lionheads and they are fluffy in that area so you cant see testes clearly til quite late. 

Just started mini lops like these but not had first litter yet:bash:

I think there is variation in the breeds and I have had awkward buggers like this who look like a female til you press down to exposed the penis

Where pigglywiggly??? She does mini lops. 

Ian, looks like you might need to pop them to vet to be sure : victory:


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

right! lol...i have exposed the white ones bits by pushing back on them and the white one seems to have a mound with a big hole in the end...also to the right of it is a tiny pink round thing a bit smaller than a pea on the part that has no fur...cant see one on the other side...oh and its going to sleep now on my partners knee! this is obviously hard work for them LOL


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Pouchie said:


> What I mean is, if thats not a finger it is a testicle :lol2:
> 
> I think the first is female too so we need a third opinion cuz I'm opposite to Dawn lol
> 
> ...


 
lol I was trying to think of saying nicely. press down so something popps out lol


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I have lionheads as well although I've not had a litter my two are only 10-12 weeks old.

I'm hoping now that they are does I'm going out to check.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

look what we done to the poor thing!! :lol2:


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> right! lol...i have exposed the white ones bits by pushing back on them and the white one seems to have a mound with a big hole in the end...also to the right of it is a tiny pink round thing a bit smaller than a pea on the part that has no fur...cant see one on the other side...oh and its going to sleep now on my partners knee! this is obviously hard work for them LOL


 
aww. No, if it is male, the testes are not next to the penis, they are further over in the furry bit. About an inch or so to the side of the exposed bit, in amongst the fur, you should see a wrinkly unmistakable testicle, but long shaped, not round.

Between the penis and the leg


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

saxon said:


> I have lionheads as well although I've not had a litter my two are only 10-12 weeks old.
> 
> I'm hoping now that they are does I'm going out to check.


 
:lol2:


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> look what we done to the poor thing!! :lol2:


 
awww bless the randy little bugger lol

Another tip (while we are at it) lol, he may just be sleeping but when you hold a bunny upside down, they go into a trance. They look peaceful but it can cause stress if you do it for long, so just bodge him over on his side a bit.

And blame me if he gets angry cus he was just trying to sleep like that :lol2:


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

ok there is a pinky patch put doesnt protrude...it is flat and has fur on it..but it is deff more pink than the rest of the skin....oh i dont know! this is a mission and a half :bash::lol2:


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

on to the next one............


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> ok there is a pinky patch put doesnt protrude...it is flat and has fur on it..but it is deff more pink than the rest of the skin....oh i dont know! this is a mission and a half :bash::lol2:


 
na. that doesnt sound like it :lol2::lol2::lol2:


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

don't be thinking that a vet will be able to sex lol I've known many get it wrong lol


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

It sure is a mission and a half and I have know vets get it wrong too! :lol2: And I'm sure it's providing plenty light entertainment. I know I've just sat and chuckled at the description of a 4 week old rabbit penis having a "cheerio" look!! WTF??? :lol2:

Being serious again though, I'm butting out on this one, cos it's proving too difficult. All I know is that when I had adult males (because I only took rescued bunnies, never bought babies) the testicles were obvious long pink wrinkly kind of sausages (surprised me that when I first saw them, being used to dogs!!!) even on my dwarf lops!


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

well the bits look the same on the darker one...push down it pops up and there is a large hole in the end...again cant really see any protrusions that suggest balls...and his skin is pink about an inch either side of the bits so maybe thats just me being dumb and its the colour of their skin!!:lol2:


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

oh hang on a minuite!!! i can feel a sausagey thing on one side of the darker ones bits!!! its slightly higher than his bits and about an inch or so to the left!!....that all sounds very wrong! :lol2:


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Just so you are clear on what a female looks like, being as there are no testes in sight...

A female has a triangle shaped protruding part which has a definite slit (not a hole) on the side next to the anus.

It can be mistaken for a penis because people dont expect the vagina to stick out like that.

Does that help any?


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> oh hang on a minuite!!! i can feel a sausagey thing on one side of the darker ones bits!!! its slightly higher than his bits and about an inch or so to the left!!....that all sounds very wrong! :lol2:


 
Have root around in the fur and see if you can see a wrinkly flap of skin. You are looking for the scrotum really as the actual testicle may be withdrawn up in the body at the moment.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

Pouchie said:


> Just so you are clear on what a female looks like, being as there are no testes in sight...
> 
> A female has a triangle shaped protruding part which has a definite slit (not a hole) on the side next to the anus.
> 
> ...


well i deffinately think the darker one is male! and to be honest i do think the lighter one is female...she seems to have more of a "baggy" appearence to her bits when they are not being exposed and looks more like a vagina even when exposed...if it did turn out they are indeed both male...i take it they cant stay together on a permenant basis?


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

yes if neutered : victory:


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

Pouchie said:


> yes if neutered : victory:


oh thats some good news at least!  how much is neutering on average? i am brassik now until the end of the month...but hopefully i can sort something then...


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

That dark bit on the light bunny definitely looks like a testicle in the photo.

You should probably pop them both to the vet as if they are both male, they could cause each other injury as they mature. Now is the time to get them neutered.

Try not to split them though as like I said before, you will then have to introduce them again which could cause problems. They will be miserable kept singularly

Damn the stoopid breeder if they got them *both* wrong:devil:


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Ian.g said:


> oh thats some good news at least!  how much is neutering on average? i am brassik now until the end of the month...but hopefully i can sort something then...


 
It varies a lot bit circa £30?

Its not too bad.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

oh not too bad then  hopefully it will all work out ok...and again thanks for all the help guys : victory:


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Hope you get it sorted out and they remain happy bunny friends forever and no reason why they won't whatever sex they are as long as they are neutered.


----------



## Ian.g (Nov 23, 2006)

feorag said:


> Hope you get it sorted out and they remain happy bunny friends forever and no reason why they won't whatever sex they are as long as they are neutered.


thanks i do hope so, as if not they may have to go outside in hutches as we dont have room for two indoor cages on a permenant basis... the kids adore them as does my other half (and me lol) so really want to keep them as house rabbits if possible...will let you all know what happens, i may even take them to our local pet shop at the weekend, as the owner there is great with rabbits and should be able to give us a deffinate answer on their sexes


----------



## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

We took in a road traffic accident blac rabbit many moons ago, we took it to the vet for treatment as someone had dumped it on my mum at work! The vet told us female rabbit, that there seemed to be just bruising, and it was probably in shock so to keep it quiet and warm.. Did as we were told, postered the neighbourhood nobody came forward. The vets said 'she' could be a wild rabbit but we weren't allowed to re-release if this was the case. So we intro'd 'her' to Rosie our other rabbit. A few weeks later we've got a litter of kittens! We presumed Rosie was the male as the vets couldn't possibly mis-sex the black rabbit surely..we only sussed it out when we saw the black rabbit (later called Arthur) dragging Rosie into the hutch to feed the babies. Blooming vets. We had Arthur neutered, and they lived happily together until Arthur died (age unknown he was an adult when he came to us but we'd had him 8 years)

I can't see why yours would have a problem if you have the male neutered, our two got on like a house on fire. Had a few neutered males over the years and they all got along fantastically with the females they lived with. Good luck with your two, let us know how you get on


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

My last rabbits were neutered male and female dwarf lops and they got on great together. In fact the male died very quickly after the female and I think he just missed her so much - he was far more reliant on her for company than she was on him! Just like a bloke!!


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

its hard to tell from the pictures, but the top one looks female, the bottom rabbit i cant tell, `cause the bits arnt being popped out enough.

you`d be best not asking a vet, they tend to make mistakes why not find your nearest British Rabbit Council registered breeder, or brc district advisor and ask them to have a quick look?

www.thebrc.org


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Fixx said:


> Same could be said about dog breeders :whistling2:


 I agree. I wonder how many rabbit breeders ask loads of questions and have a list of things they find unacceptable and then even if they do agree to sell, insist on the new owner signing a legal binding document agreeing to bring the rabbit back if it cannot be kept and agreeing that they are not at liberty to sell or rehome.
I personally could never breed rotties, staffies or indeed any large breed mongrel because of the numbers in rescue, however, personally, I have no problem breeding the occasional litter of chihuahua crosses or my cavaliers.Popular, not the sort you find in rescue centres and the 'right' sort of people who want them. However, if things changed and all of a sudden, up and down the country, there were cavalier king charles spaniels languishing in rescue centres with nobody wanting to adopt them, I would have all of mine spayed immediately.
If rabbits cost several hundreds of pounds to buy perhaps they wouldn't be so neglected?


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I agree. I wonder how many rabbit breeders ask loads of questions and have a list of things they find unacceptable and then even if they do agree to sell, insist on the new owner signing a legal binding document agreeing to bring the rabbit back if it cannot be kept and agreeing that they are not at liberty to sell or rehome.


I am one :lol2:
You obviously missed the argument I had with 'a certain person' who claimed such contracts are a load of crap.

Great to hear you practice this too, I firmly believe it is the answer to Britian's rescue problem.


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> I am one :lol2:
> You obviously missed the argument I had with 'a certain person' who claimed such contracts are a load of crap.
> 
> Great to hear you practice this too, I firmly believe it is the answer to Britian's rescue problem.


 
I'm not sure these are actually 'legally' binding contracts though.
I don't think they are 'crap as such just it's very hard to carry out the agreements made by either hte new owner or the breeder.

I gave out such contracts with my Sibes years ago but one still went through rescue without my knowledge!!!!!!!

I tell every one who takes any of my animals, be it large or small, that I will have the animal back if they are no longer able to keep it.
I've ony had two doe rats returned but I know by experience that it's way hard to ahve an animal you have sold returned to you whether you give out a contract or not.
It's mainly hoping the people who buy your animals are trustworthy and all breeders/owners can amke a mistake.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> I am one :lol2:
> You obviously missed the argument I had with 'a certain person' who claimed such contracts are a load of crap.
> 
> Great to hear you practice this too, I firmly believe it is the answer to Britian's rescue problem.


 My present one was drawn up with advice from my lawyer and he said that as long as I insist that the new owner reads it in my presence and I ask if they understand it and we both sign it, it is legally binding. We both keep a copy too. It is a binding contract with both parties signing in agreement.
I have done this for the last 20 odd years that I have bred dogs.


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

contracts arnt worth the paper they are written on, i know this from keeping pedigree cats

once its paid for, its nothing to do with you and the new owner can give away/put through rescue etc as they see fit.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

The worst that can happen is the new owner feels too embarrassed to return the animal, or worse wants to sell it on to get some money back.

Because not everyone insists or even offers to take animals back, it makes it hard for those who do.

If everyone did do this, there would be no rescue centres and you would not be able to buy an animal from someone other than a breeder.

Thus, if everyone did it, it WOULD work.

The other argument is how can a breeder take animals back? Well, it is self regulating. You have animals back to rehome, you run low on space, you slow down on your breeding until the space is freed up.


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i agree Pouchie, 
i always take mine back, i made`em, so they`re my problem, lol


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> contracts arnt worth the paper they are written on, i know this from keeping pedigree cats
> 
> once its paid for, its nothing to do with you and the new owner can give away/put through rescue etc as they see fit.


 And you are a lawyer? You know better than my lawyer? Any contract agreed and signed by both parties is indeed binding.
I would be interested to see your sources for your reply.


----------



## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> The worst that can happen is the new owner feels too embarrassed to return the animal, or worse wants to sell it on to get some money back.
> 
> Because not everyone insists or even offers to take animals back, it makes it hard for those who do.
> 
> ...


 My philosophy has always been "if you had room to have the litter, you have room to take one back".
My people know that I'm happy to have them back and will also love to have them stay for a visit if they go on holiday.


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> Because not everyone insists or even offers to take animals back, it makes it hard for those who do.
> 
> If everyone did do this, there would be no rescue centres and you would not be able to buy an animal from someone other than a breeder.
> 
> Thus, if everyone did it, it WOULD work.


Totally agree, but sadly not all breeders breed for the love of it!! Too many are in it for the money they can make and once they've sold the cat/dog/rabbit whatever they just aren't interested in what happens to it after that!

All my kittens were sold on the proviso that they came back to me at any time in the future if the new owner's circumstances changed. I've taken back cats as old as 9 for re-homing, but I think I've been lucky, cos I've also re-homed a lot of Somalis and Siamese that I haven't bred!!


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

feorag said:


> Totally agree, but sadly not all breeders breed for the love of it!! Too many are in it for the money they can make and once they've sold the cat/dog/rabbit whatever they just aren't interested in what happens to it after that!
> 
> All my kittens were sold on the proviso that they came back to me at any time in the future if the new owner's circumstances changed. I've taken back cats as old as 9 for re-homing, but I think I've been lucky, cos I've also re-homed a lot of Somalis and Siamese that I haven't bred!!


 
I know you are right but I can never help wonder 'how does one make a profit from breeding animals'?

If anyone knows please tell me!!!

:lol2:

This year so far we have spent over £9,000 and made about £700.

Even if we ONLY counted bedding and feed, we would still have spent well over £2,000. And that does not include meat and fruit/veg! Just dry feed.


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

I will always take my babies back, no matter what the age or reason.

I do the same and have a contract and go through it with the prospective new owner. 
Over 10 years of breeding I have had 5 dogs back. 4 are still with me and one was pet homed. The reasons they came back home.

Dweezil (Neutered/stayed) lady had a prem baby, he was 9 months and strong and male, she was in hospital. He was offered back to me and I said he would be here for life. and he is.

Keano (Neutered/Stayed) had a baby after 13 years of no baby and ivf and apparently he gave the baby sellmonella. In one way I was peaved about the whole baby so get rid of dog. but I was pointed out that if they had gone to such lengths to have a baby then the baby would be the only thing and he is 32 inches at the shoulder!

Wayakin (Stayed was Di's on breeding terms) di had trouble after her illness got worse. wayakin was both of ours and still kinda is as di is a best mate and here a lot like granma visiting lol

Esme. Stayed (sadly passed away last year) my first ever litter. Found out that i had been lied to, she was locked in the garage so we pulled the right to have her back from contract as they had advertised her for sale. she was a mess. gave them money back (begged and borrowed, all i wanted was her home) she had eaten herself in lonelyness and depression. she was self harming and we gave her everything and i was forever telling her how sorry i was for having trusted them.

tj (Neutered/rehomed) he was a smashing dog, and sadly his mum had died and his dad had altziemers (sic) and they had to move to his to be full time carers and he couldn't be trusted with the dog due to his illness.

As you can see, the boys had been neutered so hardly like I can use them at stud but they are my babies, balls or no balls. So I can't breed them, so what! It ain't about that, it's about me stressing like hell and wanting my babies home. Ste (oh) is always amazed that I can pull up exact pics of the dog as a day old pup and know which one it is and remember everything about them.

Again, same with my bunnies. It will be same contract. I will always have my babies back home!


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks for that Laura that was really interesting. So nice to see others do this too!

Shame its not law really. Would solve a multitude of problems:no1:


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> I know you are right but I can never help wonder 'how does one make a profit from breeding animals'?
> 
> If anyone knows please tell me!!!
> 
> ...


Well, if you look at it logically, certainly in the cat world we have to leave our queens to be mated, which means a double journey and sometimes the stud we want could be 300+ miles away. Our queens have to be blood tested before they can be mated and some stud owners demand a 24 hour test! Then we have the stud fees to pay before we even know if our queen is pregnant. At least people who have their own studs don't have those expenses to consider every time they want to mate up a queen. 

We also have to vaccinate our kittens before they leave us which means keeping them for an extra 4 weeks minimum so there's more expense!

The general rule of thumb is that you need 3 kittens to cover your expenses, then if there are no vets bills you will make a profit from the sale of the rest of the kittens, so it does depend on what you sell your kittens for. Unfortunately Somalis are not well known for having large litters and 3 is an average size litter. I had one litter of 5 and one litter of 4, the rest were 3s, 2s and 1s!!

I certainly didn't make a profit on my breeding - Luna's mother was one surviving kitten from 2 litters (her mother carried 6 and Leyla carried 3) and when I added up the cost of 2 emergency c-section, 2 stud fees, petrol to Gloucester for the somali stud cat, extra food for the mothers, food for the kittens and Kosta's vaccinations she cost me over £800 to produce and that was in 1994.

My first litter was 3 kittens, I gave one away for the cost of the vaccinations to some friends who I knew couldn't really afford to pay full price for her and sold the other 2. I costed out that the overall profit was -£15. Then I bought Leyla back from her owners 2 months later when they had a bad car accident and the mother was in hospital so the kitten was being left too long on her own. So certainly no profit there.


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i dont think you can make money out of breeding any animal if its done properly without cutting corners.

has anyone on here made a profit?

i have my own stud cats so dont have the £300+ stud fee to find, but kitten money dosnt cover the food bills, let alone the cat litter, vaccinations, blood tests,wormers, frontline, vet bills, etc

i`ve had issues with contracts before, i dont use them ( i always take back my babies ) 

i`ve come to the conclusion that if i have any reservations about a person, they dont get the kitten/rabbit/guineapig, i`ve only had one cat returned to me ( very ill and cost £400 at the vets to put right, and she`ll stay here for life now )
i have helped re-home kittens for owners where they have phoned the breeder for help and have refused to take them back.


----------



## mutznutz (Aug 13, 2008)

i no londer breed anything my daughter had a heart attack at 23 and when i was with her i felt guilty on my kittens when i was with them i felt for my daughter and if i couldnt give my kittens 110% i shouldnt be doing it but while i was breeding for a while i was a delegate for the gccf and did ragdoll rescue i gave up been a delegate because of one case i was so annoyed a person had bought a kitten for a pet non active had signed to say pet only on quite a detailed contract then went on to take the breeder to court because she would not change the girl to active she won and the breeder had to change the girl to the active register the gccf did nothing to help the courts decided she had no right to tell the owner she could not breed her pet so use different wording REDUCED AS NOT SUITABLE FOR BREEDING works but not pet only i also know for a fact that piggly wiggly has tried her damdest (sorry lousy speller )to inforce contracts on her kittens but it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth if no one backs you up when s... happens but i always used them because you can only hope


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

If you breed like Esmond Gay and charge what he charges for his bengals, you make enough money to buy a stately home and fill it with all sorts of wild and expensive animals!

I've refused to sell kittens to people that I didn't get that 'gut feeling' about, but sometimes with the best will in the world peoples' circumstances change and they may have no choice but to rehome their animals.

I thought you kept your cats indoors? I never worm mine - they don't eat fresh meat and they don't kill so there's no need. I wormed my kittens before they left, but that was purely precautionary.

To be quite honest I don't think breeders make a lot of money, but neither do I think they make a loss if they have their own stud cats. Have you actually costed out your costs on an average litter? Surely if I can clear my costs on a litter of 3 kittens and I have to pay petrol money for a double journey to stud and a stud fee, then you must be able to make a small profit on some of your litters if you don't have that expenditure? Also if you have your own queens and they don't go out to other studs then you only have to blood test that queen once, not every time you mate her up?


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

my stud boys are outside for obvious reasons,

my girls spend time out with the boys, with the best will in the world, with a run attached outdoors there is always the slim possibilty of worms and fleas, as they go hand-in-hand, so mine are all treated as a sensible precaution. i`d rather spend a few extra pounds to be on the safe side.

my kittens are wormed three times before they leave with panacur, and get one treatment with frontline before they leave,

this is my first litter this year, but i`ve still had the bills to pay all year, with an average litter of 3 i`m making a massive loss. 
but my fluffies arnt a business, they are my pets, the four neuters still have to be fed, its nice to get a little back to pay some of the royal canin induced credit card bill occasionally!


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

C Esmond Gay is suspended sine die from the gccf


----------



## angeldog (Mar 12, 2006)

Dont know if these will be of any help, its quite difficult to get pics when your the only one at home and your doing it one handed.
these are 6 week old mini lops and very easy to sex

male









Female










Sorry pics are so big for some reason it wouldnt let me resize them


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

mutznutz said:


> i no londer breed anything my daughter had a heart attack at 23 and when i was with her i felt guilty on my kittens when i was with them i felt for my daughter and if i couldnt give my kittens 110% i shouldnt be doing it but while i was breeding for a while i was a delegate for the gccf and did ragdoll rescue i gave up been a delegate because of one case i was so annoyed a person had bought a kitten for a pet non active had signed to say pet only on quite a detailed contract then went on to take the breeder to court because she would not change the girl to active she won and the breeder had to change the girl to the active register the gccf did nothing to help the courts decided she had no right to tell the owner she could not breed her pet so use different wording REDUCED AS NOT SUITABLE FOR BREEDING works but not pet only i also know for a fact that piggly wiggly has tried her damdest (sorry lousy speller )to inforce contracts on her kittens but it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth if no one backs you up when s... happens but i always used them because you can only hope


that's very typically GCCF - they sit on the fence! They're happy to 'rule' over petty little things like disqualifying new owners for mistakes on show entry forms, but when it comes down to stuff like this they won't enter any kind of court case or debate - they leave it to the court to decide.

Imao that's not governing so the word governing has no business in their title.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> this is my first litter this year, but i`ve still had the bills to pay all year, with an average litter of 3 i`m making a massive loss.
> but my fluffies arnt a business, they are my pets, the four neuters still have to be fed, its nice to get a little back to pay some of the royal canin induced credit card bill occasionally!


:lol2: We always joke that the girls have to raise their litters to pay for the boys.

We also have animals who don't breed through no fault of their own.

Such as Bo, who is Lucian's rabbit being as he was born with malocclusion so had his teeth removed. He is a great pet for Luce as he can't bite him but he still has to have his upkeep paid for.

I have retired does I feel duty bound to care for til the end of their days.

Our skunk eats like a horse.

The cats are two males, never intended for breeding but they have incurred vet bills through entropion which cost a bomb for surgery.

The ferrets jills will not breed until next year and eat a raw meat and bones diet!

I could go on.

Unless you are ruthless, you will always have other animals who will never make money or are not for extended periods of time.


----------



## mutznutz (Aug 13, 2008)

i hand on heart have read a case going to the gccf tribunal a lady let a kitten go 6 days after its jab not 7 2 weeks later the kitten got a runny eye she got fined £500 harsh isnt in it lol


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

pigglywiggly said:


> my stud boys are outside for obvious reasons,
> 
> my girls spend time out with the boys, with the best will in the world, with a run attached outdoors there is always the slim possibilty of worms and fleas, as they go hand-in-hand, so mine are all treated as a sensible precaution. i`d rather spend a few extra pounds to be on the safe side.
> 
> ...


So you're actually working out profit over the costs of all your cats then - that's the difference! If I had done that I would have made a massive loss rather than a loss over my breeding. 

Yet you say your cats aren't a business they're pets first and foremost which was my outlook - therefore the costs of keeping all the cats is there whether you breed or not! The question was "does anyone make money from breeding" not does anyone make money from keeping pets. So I was talking about whether you cover the costs of bringing a litter into the world - in other words what producing that litter costs you, not the cost of keeping all your cats, which presumably would be there anyway, just like any other pet keeper.

As far as the worming goes, I wormed my girls before they went to stud, but never wormed my neuters after they were about 3 years old and I was happy to think they were free of worms. Once I stopped breeding the girls I stopped worming.

I took part in a survey a few years ago done by Danielle Gunne-Moor of the Royal Dick Vet in Edinburgh on respiratory infections and parasites in multi-cat households and nothing was found in any of my cats - so, I'm happy that they don't need regular worming. Obviously, if they ever picked up a flea I would be worming too - that goes without saying!



pigglywiggly said:


> C Esmond Gay is suspended sine die from the gccf


Yes, I'm well aware of this, but it was an illustration of how bad breeders can make money out of cats. And he's still breeding and still selling his cats, only he's not registering them with GCCF - that's all!


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

feorag said:


> "does anyone make money from breeding" !


I can't really answer this accurately with figures because it is hard to work out exactly what is spent on each litter and with rodents, these litters vary so much, as do the adults kept.


I know overall, we make a huge loss but we are not a business either. It is our hobby (Thankfully our 'only' hobby!)


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

angeldog said:


> Dont know if these will be of any help, its quite difficult to get pics when your the only one at home and your doing it one handed.
> these are 6 week old mini lops and very easy to sex
> 
> male
> ...


Actually I think the bigger the better and these are very clear to see! Should be a great help to anyone trying to sex a baby bunny!


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> I can't really answer this accurately with figures because it is hard to work out exactly what is spent on each litter and with rodents, these litters vary so much, as do the adults kept.
> 
> 
> I know overall, we make a huge loss but we are not a business either. It is our hobby (Thankfully our 'only' hobby!)


In my enthusiasm when I had my first litter, I worked out what my girl ate normally and what extra quantity she ate during her pregnancy and lactation and costed out the cost of the extra food. Then the petrol to stud (which was only a 30 mile run compared to my usual 250+ journeys), blood tests, stud fee, kitten vaccinations and registrations and everything they ate. That's how I worked it out.

I really think you cannot add in the cost of feeding and caring for all your animals to justify saying you make a loss on breeding, because that loss would be there whether you breed or not! Is that too simplistic a viewpoint?

I kept detailed accounts out of interest in excel when I got my computer - just cos I was enthusiastic about using it. And my average yearly expense for my cats, including petrol to stud and cat shows, (but not trips to the vet), vets fees, show entries, stud fees, blood tests etc etc minus the sale of the kittens and the total amount was never under £2,000 and usually nearer £2,400. Course I only every had 2 breeding queens which had one litter a year. By the way those figures are from 1994 to 2000 so not recently!


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

but the fact is if i wasnt breeding i wouldnt have the expense of £500 for each stud pen (they need replacing every 5 years), heating them, blood tests, the cost of a premium food to keep my cats fit & healthy, worming, flea treatments, extra vet bills & keeping all the vaccinations up to date etc
these all have to be paid for 365 days a year, not just the 9 weeks of pregnancy and 13 weeks of weaning.

using an outside stud cat is better value for money, lol

i dont keep a count of how much i spend on my cats........i`ve only worked out the cost of rearing a litter once, it was toooo depressing and i wont do it again!


----------



## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

brilliant bunny bits pictures

:no1:


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

pigglywiggly said:


> but the fact is if i wasnt breeding i wouldnt have the expense of £500 for each stud pen (they need replacing every 5 years), heating them, blood tests, the cost of a premium food to keep my cats fit & healthy, worming, flea treatments, extra vet bills & keeping all the vaccinations up to date etc
> these all have to be paid for 365 days a year, not just the 9 weeks of pregnancy and 13 weeks of weaning.
> 
> using an outside stud cat is better value for money, lol


so are you saying you wouldn't feed a premium food to your cats if you weren't breeding? Also would you not be worming and flea treating? Sorry, but I don't see a difference. 

If you are only breeding your own cats, then one blood test would be sufficient surely. If your stud pens cost £500 and only last 5 years (I know a lot of people with stud pens that don't need to be replaced every 5 years) then that's £100 a year - a lot less than I've paid out in stud fees and petrol money. Are you taking in other queens, in which case your stud cats are earning their keep surely?

Vet bills for kittening queens and kittens should of course be added into your kittening costs, but the bills for cats that have nothing to do with kittening shouldn't - if you were to work out the cost of an average litter.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

feorag said:


> I really think you cannot add in the cost of feeding and caring for all your animals to justify saying you make a loss on breeding, because that loss would be there whether you breed or not! Is that too simplistic a viewpoint?


Yes.

I too keep an excel speadsheet, split down into categories so I know what was spent on equipment/ housing etc and what was spent on 'consumables', vet bills, livestock etc etc.

I am not really able to work out costings as accurately as you because If I buy a bale of wood shavings, or hay, that is used for various different species. Well the shavings and bedding I use to breed mice will not be paid for as quickly as the amount I use for rats as a mouse is sold for £4 and a rat is £10.

A bag of rat mix. I cannot split the cost five ways between my adults because 1) It is used to make up a mouse mix so they eat it too and 2) There is a variable amount of rat kittens also eating it at any one point.

How much does a degu cost to breed? Dunno. I can't work it out accurately because everything they use, other species use. They eat a base mix of chinchilla pellets and guinea pig food. Also obviously consumed by my chins and g. pigs.


If I don't know how much it costs to breed each species yet, how do I know if I am making a loss?

I can only go by the overall figures I have.

And yes I see your point about some of these costs would be incurred regardless of whether the animals breed but you cannot produce young without paying for the upkeep of the parents. 

In theory, you would think a profit could be made. In practice and in my experience so far, I would say you are lucky if you break even.


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, I have to agree if you keep and breed one species or one species with specific diet and husbandry needs, then it's easy to work it out, but otherwise it wouldn't be!

It's interesting though when you look at your expenditure isn't it! And Scary!! :crazy: When I told a few cat breeding friends of mine that I was going to work out all my costs for my cats, they all looked horrified and told me not to do it because it would scare me so much I'd want to stop.

Well, it didn't scare me enough to make me want to stop, I just found it intensely interesting to look at the figures. Like the fact that in 8 years from 1994 to 2001 my highest vet bill was in 1994 at £1,488. And that in 1996 I spent over £700 in cat show entries alone, whereas my petrol costs to all those shows, taking cats to stud visiting the odd cat seminar was just under £400!! That was scarey!!


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

feorag said:


> Yes, I have to agree if you keep and breed one species or one species with specific diet and husbandry needs, then it's easy to work it out, but otherwise it wouldn't be!
> 
> It's interesting though when you look at your expenditure isn't it! And Scary!! :crazy: When I told a few cat breeding friends of mine that I was going to work out all my costs for my cats, they all looked horrified and told me not to do it because it would scare me so much I'd want to stop.
> 
> Well, it didn't scare me enough to make me want to stop, I just found it intensely interesting to look at the figures. Like the fact that in 8 years from 1994 to 2001 my highest vet bill was in 1994 at £1,488. And that in 1996 I spent over £700 in cat show entries alone, whereas my petrol costs to all those shows, taking cats to stud visiting the odd cat seminar was just under £400!! That was scarey!!


 
I'm like you, I think it's great fun and I'm not one for sticking my head in the sand.

You can always justify it. We always say we could spend the same money if we had a social life!!!

We don't go on holiday but so long as we can take Lucian for day trips (usually to animal collections, the poor thing!) then we are happy.


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Same as us! We rarely go out, we don't smoke, hardly drink and all our cats come on holiday with us - even when we had 10, so the price we pay is a (usually) wet fortnight in Scotland - no holidays abroad, even though the choice is there now, I still wouldn't risk my cats abroad.

And irrespective of what it cost for me to breed, I never regretted it for a single moment - I loved it! The only reason I'm not still doing it is that we reached the maximum number of cats we were happy to have and the youngest breeding queen was reaching retirement age. I will not neuter and move on one of my queens to make space for another breeding queen so the law of average said there was no choice but to stop - and I haven't regretted that either. I never was ambitious enough to move on a queen who was a family pet and had earned her right to spend the rest of her days with us, just so that I could carry on breeding and showing - even though I bred the top winning Somali in the UK in both 1995 (Harry) and 1996 (Leyla) and Leyla was Best Opposite Sex in 1995, so I was quite successful!


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

That's lovely Feorag. Good on you for giving your queens a forever home : victory:

They deserve it.


----------



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

When I used to breed and show my Siamese I never made any money.A C-Section a kitten with an intersusseption(sp) Testing, vaccs, rearing, etc. I did it purely for love I dont think caring breeders ever make any money. I too had contracts but thankfully never had to try them out.My girls were all retired and kept too


----------



## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:2thumb: And that's the way it should be Shell. I can never understand how anyone can neuter and re-home a queen just because they can't breed from her any more. Surely she's earned her place in the household. 

I would only ever accept anyone doing that if it was in the best interest of the queen, but although that's the excuse a lot of breeders give, most of the time it's not an acceptable one for me!!


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

feorag said:


> Same as us! We rarely go out, we don't smoke, hardly drink and all our cats come on_ *holiday*_with us -


 
What is that word Holiday? lol Haven't had one of those since I had my honeymoon 11 years ago! lol

In fact hubby and the kids are hopefully going on holiday next year with the inlaws to the Isle of wight. I'm having my 'Holiday' at home with just me and the animals!! Bliss! Not having to do anything for the kids or hubby, just 100% me and them lol I can't wait.

I treat going to shows my social life. As I don't go out, nor drink, nor spend silly money on clothes (Charity shops are good enough for my clothes lol). I spend on the kids and pets, not me cause in spending on them it is for me in a way.

Just come back from Preston with a stunning Blue Rex doe. She is just Gorgeous! Same breeder as where we got our Black Rex Jck from, and again, these are mummies bunnies! Yes my children do have 2 rabbits each but I do the feeding and cleaning etc and making all checks but I involve the children in that and teach them respect and how to care for them. My daughter is 7 in November and she is a star. She'll spot a water bottle half full and she empties and refills even if she's just in the garden playing and you hear the outside tap and she's topping all teh bottles back up. Bless her. She's coming with me to the show on Sunday. She actually asked if she could come with to see what a rabbit show was like and to learn.


----------



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

feorag said:


> :2thumb: And that's the way it should be Shell. I can never understand how anyone can neuter and re-home a queen just because they can't breed from her any more. Surely she's earned her place in the household.
> 
> I would only ever accept anyone doing that if it was in the best interest of the queen, but although that's the excuse a lot of breeders give, most of the time it's not an acceptable one for me!!


 
So true. I have 2 retired Bitches. Kira was 9 in June and Ista will be 9 in December. Both I have had since puppies! I couldn't bare to ever part with them, they are still my babies, always been my pets and close friends and that hasn't changed at all.


----------

