# Why the future breeding of GPRs in the UK needs to stop.



## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

After hearing about the recent experiences with a current litter of GPRs, it has made me seriously think about what is happening to these beautiful creatures.

Out of a litter of four babies, two of them, one boy and one girl have developed s...evere epilepsy. 

The little boy has just had to be PTS this morning as the fits became so severe. It was heartbreaking to see the videos of him fitting, which were filmed to show just how distressing this is both for the animal and the owners. He was just 6 weeks old. His sister’s fits are also becoming more frequent and severe, and she will most likely have to follow her brother to the bridge.

As with other breeders, he was assured that the parents were well and healthy, or he would not have let the rats mate, but only last week, the father died in the waiting room at the vets while waiting to be seen. I don’t think he was even 12 months old.

The survey, which I conducted, shows that GPRs in the UK and Europe are living on average about 2-4 years. There have been a few exceptions, with one female in Germany reaching the age of eight. But she may have been one of the original one imported or a first generation baby. Also, others have not even reached one year of age.

After trying to research the family trees of the rats, it seems that all of them come from the same line, which was originally imported, and even the ones in Europe are most probably from the same line.

Inbreeding has now reached about the 4th 5th generations, and severe health problems are beginning to show up. I have bred a litter myself, so am guilty like everyone else, but I think that now for the sake of the animals, we have to stop any future breeding. As it is illegal to import from Africa, I think that the kindest thing we can do is just to let the ones we have already, live out their lives, and if they do start to develop any severe symptoms or fitting, to help them on their way to the bridge.

It is very sad, but in my eyes, the welfare of the animals must come first, and we should not carry on breeding. I hope that people understand where all this is coming from, but it needed to be brought to everyone’s attention, and hopefully most will agree
with me that it is for the best.

Our Emins breeding program will also have to be closely monitored, as it may be also unfair to breed from these if they are all related. It is a very sad day for me, but we have put the health and well-being of the animals first and foremost.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

I want to add my bit here, because the babies are my babies. I was assured right till recently, that these adult animals I had were healthy no p;roblems with the lines, even as close as last week, I was told that story, extremely healthy one breeder said. But unfortunately, after doing my own research, it seems that wasnt exactly the truth. The both lines are excessively inbred. Health problems are showing themselves, as a video I am adding here, shows. Its broken my heart, the things that have happened to this little boy and his sister, over the past 2 weeks, and this weekend got so bad, he had to be put down, this morning. Lets just say that in two days, he had 9 very bad fits, which this morhning ended up giving him a stroke, and he lost the use of his left side.

I want to say this, anybody with Gambian Pouched Rats, must stop breeding them now. No ifs, buts or maybe, you must stop this now. Stop thinking about yourselves, and think about the animals. Because of being misinformed, this is result of my attempt at breeding.......this makes me furious......

YouTube - Rat fitting.........

This poor little rat is just past 6 weeks old.......it is not fare on these animals to carry on breeding them.........6 weeks of age........


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

That video is pretty upsetting..  Poor little thing.


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## kodisbabe (Jul 29, 2009)

This is very sad news to hear, but unfortunately its not private breeders like yourselves that need to worry (obviously you do but...) its the mass breeding centers that will not read posts like these or if they do they don't care as they sell to pet shops who then sell on to Joe Bloggs, and the center who bred it is free from come back and so will continue to breed to excess and sell them on! 
Its such a horrible thing they are lovely animals and extremely clever with regards to being trained for numerous things.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

kodisbabe said:


> This is very sad news to hear, but unfortunately its not private breeders like yourselves that need to worry (obviously you do but...) its the mass breeding centers that will not read posts like these or if they do they don't care as they sell to pet shops who then sell on to Joe Bloggs, and the center who bred it is free from come back and so will continue to breed to excess and sell them on!
> Its such a horrible thing they are lovely animals and extremely clever with regards to being trained for numerous things.


Unfortunately, these are Gambian pouched Rats, and both sets of parents come from private breeders.......nothing to do with mass breeding centres.......all breeders, private or not, because of the nature of the fact that almost all lines come from one person, are inbreeding, there are no fresh lines........it must not be allowed to carry on.......


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## Rie xx (Nov 20, 2008)

I don't wish to upset anybody here but.... Stop the breeding of Gambians! I really don't think that that drastic action needs to be taken..

This has happened to one litter!! And i must add, my condolences go out to John who has had an absolute terrible time with his latest litter of gambians.. And i truly salute him for all the sleepless nights and worry he has had with this last litter..

I must also add John has never contacted myself to enquire about Screechs background and i am the breeder of screech!!!
I did contact John offering more info when i found out he had acquired one of my pups... But unfortunately i was pretty much told to Go away!!

I may also add that i have pure clean lines and can trace my own gambians history pretty far back...
I would never have started breeding in the first place should my lines be contaminated.
I have also never had an attack of epilepsy in any of my own gambians or pups i produced!!!

Please people don't attack my for this post as we need to work together on this if there is epilepsy in the lines!! And i am just personally giving my perception of the whole situation..
I do think though to tell everyone they need to stop breeding is a little premature!!

I was never contacted and screechs background was never requested!!!

And i must add again my own lines can be traced back very far!!! So screech never came from a inbred background!!!! As John has referred!!!

I am not picking fault with anybody here and realise this is extremely serious condition, epilepsy is not nice in any animal or human...

I do have to ask though how did research take place for the gambians to be put together to breed in the first place when i was not contacted and i obviously no information was passed across on screechs background!!!

Like i say i don't wish to be attacked for this post but i am just merely pointing out some points and facts...

Screech never came from an excessively inbred line...


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

I would like to thank everyone for their input here, and if this thread is making people think, then that is a good thing. If everyone could open up about their GPRs, and forget the past for the sake of the rats, then that would be a step in the right direction. Any problems such as ringtail and torpor would have to be reported, and which lines they have affected, also any other ailments people have experienced.

I will not be breeding GPRs myself, but the other breeders should get together and share information if there is to be any hope for the future of the breed.

The secrecy has to stop, and information has to be shared.


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## Rie xx (Nov 20, 2008)

This info was provided on Your own websites blog, this too me this says the issue arises with your female's breeder not knowing full history...

As i say again i am the breeder of screech and was never once contacted for background info.... If i had been i would happily have passed on lineage and background info....


*removed*


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

Ok, to get this straight and as you bought it up. We passed about 5 private messages back and forth on Facebook sum total of our aquaintance, and every time you did, you bought up the problems from one side of the Gambian fancy feud. I never once mentioned that. I didnt tell you to go away, I told you to stop bringing it up. That I wasnt interested, you got on your high horse. That was when I stopped talking to you. Simple as, and please pass the information on correctly. I am not, and will not get involved in that stupid fued. I have had enough from two other people to do with it, and told them exactly the same I am not interested. That was all I said to you, so get it right. If you were just interested in the animals, you wouldnt have bought it up every pm'd you sent me. Let us just please get that straight. 

Another thing is, who gave you permission to copy and paste something from my blog, I didnt you permission to do that. Please remove it. For the moderators, please remove the piece that Rie has posted in her last post, its a direct copy and paste from my website, which is against copyright rules.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

Right, as far as anything else is concerned as you have offered, can you tell me about Screech's parents. If you noticed, I didnt mention anybody by name, or feuding group here, I just posted about what is going on, you have bought all that up. It seems to me, a gesture to divert from the main problem, and that is inbreeding, and the problems associated with it in GPR's

Questions, how many litters from the same number of animals have you had? How many have survived? How many of the litters have had ringtail? How old are your animals surviving to? Now that you have outed yourself. I am not interested in anybody elses litters, just yours.

Oh, and by the way, Screech's background is on EKF for all to see. So, based on that, we know what Screech's background is. Plus until not long ago, I was actually blocked from seeing your facebook page......


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

Ok, please do not let things get nasty here. Correct me if I am wrong here, but Screech was the son of Hamish and Winnie? Hamish was brother of Bobby, and the parents were Joe's rats. Pixie from Simons (same lines as Baker lines) and the male was son of Zee and Odo. Odo is from a Baker line, but we are not sure which, and Zee as far as I know was from a pet shop, so possible Simon's and the same lines again. Winnie was bakers line and sister to Flower and Fynnley. So if all this is correct, which I am led to believe it is, how can the lines not be classed as being inbred?

It you know anything different Rie, please let me know.

Fynnley had major health problems and only lived until he was 8 months old. Flower who belongs to us has a very badly kinked tail.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

''GPR’s are nothing like a Fancy Rat, their temperament is completely different. Handling one is completely different. Unlike fancy rats, GPR’s need to bond very early with their owner, and if this doesnt happen, all manner of complications in a relationship with one can appear, biggest being aggression.''
from jmaatt21's blog.. please pm me if you have any problems with this.

i think this seems to be the problem a lot of people have.
we have a pouched rat at my work experience, for sale.
somebody brought it in 'cos it was aggressive.. they didn't socialize with it at all.. was a nice rat and somebody bought it that week.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

Ratatouille said:


> Ok, please do not let things get nasty here. Correct me if I am wrong here, but Screech was the son of Hamish and Winnie? Hamish was brother of Bobby, and the parents were Joe's rats. Pixie from Simons (same lines as Baker lines) and the male was son of Zee and Odo. Odo is from a Baker line, but we are not sure which, and Zee as far as I know was from a pet shop, so possible Simon's and the same lines again. Winnie was bakers line and sister to Flower and Fynnley. So if all this is correct, which I am led to believe it is, how can the lines not be classed as being inbred?
> 
> It you know anything different Rie, please let me know.
> 
> Fynnley had major health problems and only lived until he was 8 months old. Flower who belongs to us has a very badly kinked tail.


Thank you Ratatouille, as you can see, if that is correct, and I am sure Rie, you will let us know if its not, that is pretty extensive background information.


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

Please could I ask Spinning Tom what is the relevance of your post, this is a thread to try to sort out the future of an important species.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

Ok, so to get this back onto what this thread started as, my reasons still stand, we should stop breeding these animals. Reasons for saying that....
1. these animals in Africa according to APOPO are living to 6 to 8 years of age, our animals are barely living to 3 to 4, that is almost half the lifespan.
2. Inbreeding.....its been proven, that almost all lines are in this country come from one person. Yes, if there was communication between all breeders, this might have been less of a problem, but there is no communication and it is a problem.
3. APOPO says their animals are friendly, and dont have the behavioural problems we have. I have three rescues here, that havent bonded with anybody, and are near wild. Doesnt anybody find that really strange that our animals can be so vicious. That is not right.

Its about time this feud was forgotten, we dont have to like each other, we can still pool our resources. The worst thing is, already a ban has been put on the importation into the EU of animals from Africa, so no new blood lines are going to be available. I dont not believe its just my animals that have problems, my animals are the product of breeding. We need to sort this out. Instead of thinking of ourselves, we have to think of the animals. That is just a little bit of what is wrong with breeding GPR's. If we dont stop, its going to get worse.


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## mackaskie (Jan 29, 2009)

No One can assume its genetic I can't accept that it is genetic, as there are many other physiological or Toxic causes of fits/seizures.
A few examples are
low blood sugar
Poisoning
Toxins gambians do react badly to some food types 
Trauma
parasitic fleas/ticks /lice one of my suspicions due to seeing something on some photos a while back.

& DISTEMPER & just recently there seems to have been quite a few exotic species contracting this disease - You don't have to have a dog to infect other animals it can simply be brought in on your shoes.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

oh, I am not assuming........ok, these dont have diabetes, I know how animals are with them, and I can definitely rule that out. Food, same as the person I got Ayisa off, and a few more things that other people that keep GPRs have advised.....and just to say, I have kept rodents for about 10 years now so have an idea of what they can and cant eat, and believe me, if GPR's dont like something, they wont eat it. At least mine wont.

Poisoning....if there poisoning, there were 5 rats in that cage, 4 babies and the female, 2 babies have epilepsy, and two so far, are ok. I am not ruling out that they may develope the same thing later in life. If they had been poisoned, surely, the others in the cage would have too, plus the mum, not to mention the other GPRs that are next to them. They are not showing any signs of the similar problems. 

Toxins, same as above....it wouldnt just affect 2 babies......

parasites, fleas, etc....again, all animals are in close proximity, and none show the same problems, namely epilepsy.

Distempa, if that was hear, they would all have problems.....I can rule that out

Again, I need to point towards the very extensive background information that Marie posted, about Screech's background. Now, Ayisas background, i cannot get any further than the parents, and I only think that out from the EKF website, I was told, 'I don't know' when asked. I think one of them was a Simons animal, and if that is correct, Ayisa and Screech are very closely related.........but as, like we have seen tonight already, people are not being honest with me, and it seems themselves either, I can be sure, but because of what we know, I stake my life on it. What frustrates me, is the refusal to be honest......Until we get a completely honest record of every animal bred, bought and sold. Ill, died, about to die, like my little female might do, with the same epilepsy, then my mind wont be moved......its too coincidental, the records and the dishonesty.......and the need to divert the thread to something else.....makes me wonder if there is something to hide.....I have already been verbally abused, threatened, and banned from a website for brining this up......doesnt exactly bode well.....


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## TheProfessor (Apr 19, 2011)

Tbh, everything said can lead to many different factors, am sorry, but Jmatt what your saying its you can almost pin point it to genetics but am sorry you can't.

Unless you are telling me that the environment in your home is exactly the same as Africa, where you have every minor detail correct, the natural course of evolution and "survival of the fittest" comes into play. Yes in the wild survival of the fittest comes in with such as a thicker coat to stay warm in cold weather or a new defence mechanism to give a few ideas. But this also plays a part in human involvement, where we intervene take animals from there home and breed them here, whether it be from human selected mates, or the fact of it would happen anyway, the rats genetics will change, whether human factors speed it up or not. The rat will lose traits in the wild which would be necessary and would then pick up on those in this country that arent beneficial, but nature works in weird ways. 
You are saying its a result of inbreeding, which for you case, there is proof i admit, but for many other cases, inbreeding isnt the issue, and its purely down to genetics. Recessive alleles need to be considered here, which in the wild, wouldn't stand a chance of showing through, because that individual rat would die, because the disadvantage! Here is no different, it would die except that human knowledge has kept it alive. So its had chance to pass it on, and then on again until one rat has both alleles and "hey presto" now we have an issue. Inbreeding or not its going to happens whether it happens slowly or overnight is another question. 

This is something you CAN NOT stop, because introducing new lines from the wild, even if possible would only delay this action and not prevent it. 

This is present in dogs, even of today, its questioned that inbreeding is the cause of genetic traits, but its funny how even if you breed to pedigree's first generation of COMPLETELY different lines, they still have the same genetics traits....inbreeding or not genetics change. Unfortunately the rats of today now have the opportunity to present the alleles which in the wild wouldn't occur. 

As for what you said about aggression, all mammals have the ability to form a bond, if you went to pick up a wild rat i am pretty sure it would attack you. They say they have no aggression, but aggression is also a tendency for lack of energy expenditure, or lack or hormonal usage. It can be explained that the rat isn't getting the exercise it would in the wild, or not having a chance to have sex, so hormonal imbalances are causing behavioural issues. 

This isn't something which can be concluded with the evidence which stands at current. 

What needs to be done on a whole scale if you want this issue resolving and this isn't directed at just Jmatt, and i don't wish him to think that at all, its just he presented the most forthcoming arguement, its directed at everyone, 
its someone who believes in this issue needs to start research on people who wish to take part. Their rats, their lineage, their experience, the rats age, diet (EXACT DIET), exercise, etc..... We are talking mass research here, which inevitably will need to be gene checked as well. 

It was the same with pedigree dogs, the only reason pedigrees are still allowed to be bred, is even if you breed from different lines, or cross breed in order to try and "out breed" the issues, they are still present depending on the genes present. 
The average age of a shih tzu is 16-18 years old, when they were first bred its believe that they could live until 24. But then, they lived in china and were allowed to free roam and hunt rats, mice, rabbits etc... without being kept in houses, walked in routines as to how the owner wants... 
Animals can look after themselves once nature has selected the ones it wishes to keep. Humans unfortunately intervene with this and mess it up. 
This isn't something which you are going to be able to convince the masses on, until the research stated above is complete.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

Ah, the professor, are you Doc Cu, would be interesting to find out......just so I know who I am talking to......


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

TheProfessor said:


> Tbh, everything said can lead to many different factors, am sorry, but Jmatt what your saying its you can almost pin point it to genetics but am sorry you can't.
> 
> Unless you are telling me that the environment in your home is exactly the same as Africa, where you have every minor detail correct, the natural course of evolution and "survival of the fittest" comes into play. Yes in the wild survival of the fittest comes in with such as a thicker coat to stay warm in cold weather or a new defence mechanism to give a few ideas. But this also plays a part in human involvement, where we intervene take animals from there home and breed them here, whether it be from human selected mates, or the fact of it would happen anyway, the rats genetics will change, whether human factors speed it up or not. The rat will lose traits in the wild which would be necessary and would then pick up on those in this country that arent beneficial, but nature works in weird ways.
> You are saying its a result of inbreeding, which for you case, there is proof i admit, but for many other cases, inbreeding isnt the issue, and its purely down to genetics. Recessive alleles need to be considered here, which in the wild, wouldn't stand a chance of showing through, because that individual rat would die, because the disadvantage! Here is no different, it would die except that human knowledge has kept it alive. So its had chance to pass it on, and then on again until one rat has both alleles and "hey presto" now we have an issue. Inbreeding or not its going to happens whether it happens slowly or overnight is another question.


You have answered my question there, you seem to be saying there is a case for the problems I have to be genetic.....then you just forget why I have that problem, and say its just my problem. How can you say that. AS Marie pointed out, The line my Screech came from is rife with inbreeding.......and every time somebody is playing with inbreeding, they are playing roulette with those animals. Already we know, as has already been pointed out, we know in this country, where almost all the lines come from, and that is one person. If over the years, communication had been ok between breeders,there would be some form of written list of each animal, where it came from, its back ground, who it went to, the background of who it was with. Records in other words, and there are none, and like we have seen here, nobody is interested in trying to work out. All we have seen is misleading.



TheProfessor said:


> This is something you CAN NOT stop, because introducing new lines from the wild, even if possible would only delay this action and not prevent it.


Yeh, but if people have problems in their line, even the smallest ones, lines can be stopped, and health issues reduced. Having new blood from somewhere opens up better lines, if it had been fixed from the beginning, could be immensly helpful in our linies, but that isjnht going to happen, and our gene pool, is full if illnesses. Its also full of people not being honest about their lines. 



TheProfessor said:


> This is present in dogs, even of today, its questioned that inbreeding is the cause of genetic traits, but its funny how even if you breed to pedigree's first generation of COMPLETELY different lines, they still have the same genetics traits....inbreeding or not genetics change. Unfortunately the rats of today now have the opportunity to present the alleles which in the wild wouldn't occur.


Inbreeding if it had done properly, would produce good lines, but it hasnt. Communication is vital when your messing with closely related animals, and that is not happened here, so nobody is telling anybody about their animals. You cannot do that, if you are so cloesly inbreeding....that is why this has failed. 



TheProfessor said:


> As for what you said about aggression, all mammals have the ability to form a bond, if you went to pick up a wild rat i am pretty sure it would attack you. They say they have no aggression, but aggression is also a tendency for lack of energy expenditure, or lack or hormonal usage. It can be explained that the rat isn't getting the exercise it would in the wild, or not having a chance to have sex, so hormonal imbalances are causing behavioural issues.


Your right, you only have to look at animals such as feerets, where they need to bond with somebody, yet they get dumped and many of them die of brken hearts, they stop eating. I dont really uderstand your point here, we as GPR owners know in this country, that unless a bond is formed with your rat and its owner in the first months, it wont revert from its wild state. We know that for a fact.....This doesnt see to happen with APOPos animals, and they much tamer and friendly with humans.



TheProfessor said:


> This isn't something which can be concluded with the evidence which stands at current.
> 
> What needs to be done on a whole scale if you want this issue resolving and this isn't directed at just Jmatt, and i don't wish him to think that at all, its just he presented the most forthcoming arguement, its directed at everyone,
> its someone who believes in this issue needs to start research on people who wish to take part. Their rats, their lineage, their experience, the rats age, diet (EXACT DIET), exercise, etc..... We are talking mass research here, which inevitably will need to be gene checked as well.
> ...


Its been tried, and it wont happen, and because of that, is why I still believe GPRs should not be bred any more. The feud is too big, people arent being honest, and we have seen that on this thread......every time you breed, you playing russian roulette with each animal.....

What has been done here again in this post, is deflecting from the real issues of the fact we know inbreeding is being done, and not very well, which is having devastating effects on these animals.......

Oh, and as far as diet is concerned, APOPO feed all their animals on a diet of banana, monkey nuts and the occasional bit of tomato, and nothing else, and still their animals live to almost 8. I have that in writing from APOPO. It seems to me, people are arguing in the present, and not taking anything else about what has already happened to these animals into account, and that is wrong.


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## jmaatt21 (Nov 28, 2007)

It seems, GPR breeders find it more acceptable to rip me to shreds, than take their heads out of the sand and realise there is a problem with our GPR's, I find that extremely distressing.


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

This thread had turned out how I thought it would, with people arguing amongst themselves, and although everyone knows that all the breeders should work together and pool information, I do not think it is going to happen, and the only losers are going to be the animals themselves. This makes me very sad, but I cannot perform miracles. I think most of the damage that has already been done would be almost impossible to rectify without co-operation.


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## Rie xx (Nov 20, 2008)

I agree with Marie this thread has turned out as expected with arguments and disagreements..

I must also point out as John keeps referring to screech extensive inbred background!!!

There was 5 different Bakerlines!! And god knows how many lines simon rodents has had and produced!!

Surely if Screech came from such a extensive inbred background i would have witnessed inbreeding damage in all his brother and sisters..

I will also state once again in all my pups i've produced I have never had epilepsy or illness..

So i fail to understand if my lines is so inbred why none of my pups and even there pups have suffered or shown illnesss...

This thread is not a thread to push blame or have petty arguments....
People really need to refrain from attacking each other...

I think also it would be useful if someone contacted the owners of the bakerlines to get clarification...


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## Trekky (Feb 4, 2009)

I have been reading this topic as it was brought to my attention and thought maybe now it was time for me to put my point of view across from my own experiences .
Personally I think some of the out bursts particularly with regards to the “feud” have been a long time coming and quite frankly that’s a whole different subject to be discussed on a separate topic
I’m absolutely sick of it all as my only concern has been for my animals health and welfare this is why I can hand on heart say that I have never had one of my young out of the 38 that I have bred suffer or die from fitting. The 5 losses have been down to Torpor or veterinarian error 3 from my litters and 2 of my own adults. 
Torpor is down to our colder climate and ringtail is down to the dryness in the air of our homes particularly in the winter when the central heating gets turned on which is when ringtail is more common in both young and old pouched rats but particularly with the babies that are born at that time of year but if caught quick enough the loss of a tail can be avoided neither are a genetic issue.
Now regards your reason for the whole post… inbreeding 
What everyone is agreed on is this would be a lot less or if done further spaced between generations if we all worked together and shared information about our rats and their lineage. I am open about my rats lineage and anyone who has a rat from me will back this up as mine all come with a lineage record showing parents, grandparents and any further down the line that I know of but I have also got owners of my young to sign a contract not to breed from my young. I know I can’t reasonably police this but the reason for this was because of the limited gene pool and I would be open to dropping that condition if they came to me asking for help in locating an unrelated or at least another rat that was further enough down the chain for it not to be a problem and registered all babies that they bred.
Regards pulling together regards finding out the lineage of all our rats in an attempt to limit the amount of inbreeding or the closeness in relationship there is a registry of Gambian pouched rats in the UK. I have it and I am happy to share the information I have, if anyone wanted to ask.
There are currently 98 pouched rats listed including those that have died and any known causes. I admit it is not fully complete as I have had to gather some of the information from reading stuff on the internet or hearsay but every rat from my line has been traced back as far as it can go, which does originate, for most, from Simons rodents. The biggest hole in the links are from Odo’s breeder not knowing exactly how many pairs she had 3 or 5 or people not knowing which of her pairs their rats came from and Simon’s rodents, how many pairs do they have are they new pairs from the early days and are their new pairs rats that they have bred from their original pairs?
The aim when I set this up was originally to document my own rats which I have done since 2008 Then I thought it would be a good idea if other owners were encouraged to register the details of their own rats to help the community as a whole with regards to breeding and keeping the lines as pure or not so closely inbred as possible. With people being able to have a copy of their own rats lineage sent to them. Unfortunately the idea was slated but I continued to keep the registry as up to date as I could for my own references.


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Lesley

Thank you for posting. Is there any way you could make the info you have collected available on the internet for other breeders, so they can check up before they decide to breed a pair. At least it would be a start : victory:


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## Trekky (Feb 4, 2009)

As with any record that holds peoples personal information i have to abide by the data protection act so i cannot just have all the information listed up publically. 

However if anybody wanted to know the line of a particular rat then they can ask for it through the NPRS email at [email protected] and i can send them the information of the rats in that particular line and who the parents are or the breeder is if i don't have the parents details. 

By doing this you can see then just how closely related your rat is to anothers.

It would be lovely if every owner and breeder could add as much info of their rats that they know to make this registry more accurate but sadly people are scared of speaking within the pouched rat community because they do fear the personal attacks or getting involved in an argument they are not part of. 

There is always still the risk as with every registry whether its dogs, cats or APH's that there will be those that lie about their rats lineage but this can still work on the assumption that the majority do all want to work towards the same goal which would mean that the vast majority of info on the registry will be accurate.


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

It may be an idea to start a new thread inviting people to provide information about the rats they currently own. But this is now up to the people who still breed, my males are all neutered, but am still willing to provide information on them if it is needed.

We cannot alter the fact that they all came from the same source, but if people want to carry on breeding, then it would help if everyone (breeders) could start to share information so that any affected lines are stopped.


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## Trekky (Feb 4, 2009)

Ratatouille said:


> It may be an idea to start a new thread inviting people to provide information about the rats they currently own. But this is now up to the people who still breed, my males are all neutered, but am still willing to provide information on them if it is needed.
> 
> We cannot alter the fact that they all came from the same source, but if people want to carry on breeding, then it would help if everyone (breeders) could start to share information so that any affected lines are stopped.


I am in agreement with you here Marie.

Hopefully the final result of this topic will also show others that also with whatever differences or disputes that we have had we can also work together with regards to our animals health and welfare if we want to continue enjoying more of these beautiful animals well into the future.:2thumb:


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

Let me know if you do start a new thread Lesley, and what information you would like from me :2thumb:


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## Rie xx (Nov 20, 2008)

Ratatouille said:


> It may be an idea to start a new thread inviting people to provide information about the rats they currently own. But this is now up to the people who still breed, my males are all neutered, but am still willing to provide information on them if it is needed.
> 
> We cannot alter the fact that they all came from the same source, but if people want to carry on breeding, then it would help if everyone (breeders) could start to share information so that any affected lines are stopped.


Is there any factual proof that all the gambians come from one source..

I have also been discussing this matter with the doctor.. He said that for complications to arise in litter.. Inbreeding would have to be done a mass scale...


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

All I have heard is that all the GPRs were imported at the same time, so could well have been related. I have no proof either way as records were never kept by anyone. 

All that can be done now is to document everything that we know and try to pin point affected lines. This can only be done with co-operation and honestly from everyone involved.

This has been tried before, but did not work as some people do not want to share information but now we are getting to the 4th 5th generations and illnesses are starting to show, it is important that someone tries to achieve this.


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## blade100 (Sep 26, 2009)

hi i have one of Rie's gambians,queenie is from Rie's very first litters she will be two years old this october and is very healthy,she weighs 3.4kg and eats well.
i have never experienced any health issues with her whats so ever.just her coat changing colour but from research i have done it does state that they can have white spots in there fur.

here she is











































































































i couldn't be any more happier with her,and her breeder Rie. x


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## Ratatouille (Sep 5, 2008)

Not seen a coat with white spots like that before, did you find out what causes it?


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## blade100 (Sep 26, 2009)

Rie found some info on the net about gambians and coat colours and changes. She also found a pic of a Gambian in the wild with White patches on it's coat.


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## Trekky (Feb 4, 2009)

The info the Amy is refering to is:



> The fur is short and thin. The coloration of the mid dorsal regions range from dark grayish brown to medium grayish, with a tinge of brown or clear reddish brown. The general coloration becomes paler on the sides, sides of the face and flanks, ranging from gray with a brownish tinge to reddish brown or buff. The conspicuous ears are practically naked, the dorsal two thirds are dark grayish and the remainder soiled white or cream. Many individuals are mottled gray or almost spotted, mainly on the anterior half of the upper parts. This mottling may be inconspicuous, many from irregular small spots or blotches or may cover almost all of the upper parts.


The following quote has been taken from: http://www.altpet.net/rodents/cricetomys/gprat2.html

This is the image of a wild pouched rat with the same white marks:


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## blade100 (Sep 26, 2009)

Yes that's the info Rie found for me. Thanks for posting Lesley.


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