# PETA...absolute scum



## caffers1982 (Jan 17, 2010)

PETA | Killing Animals | Animal Rights Campaign | The Daily Caller

I almost wish I hadn't read it tbh...it makes me fume.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

If this is factually true ( and we do have to bear in mind that this is media and will be angled to suit their own needs) then it is indeed a disgrace and should be questioned.
As it is in America however, I suspect it will be largely ignored and will go unnoticed by the masses.


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## caffers1982 (Jan 17, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> If this is factually true ( and we do have to bear in mind that this is media and will be angled to suit their own needs) then it is indeed a disgrace and should be questioned.
> As it is in America however, I suspect it will be largely ignored and will go unnoticed by the masses.


Good point mate

And it seems we do the same over here with the RSPCA as well


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

We do the same over here with regards to a huge range of charities (or should I say so called charities)
The RSPCA being one if them, but also PETA.
There are many Charities that misuse their funds appallingly.
I seem to remember a kerfuffle a few years back over the nspcc using finds and donations to produce booklets and brochures for it's main share holders and donators.
How transparent are charities accounts I wonder and how
Much explaining do they have to do?
Obviously there is the charity commission but I do wonder how much they het away with?


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## Barlow (Sep 23, 2010)

Yeah it is true. PETA want to stop all ownership of any animal. I hate them.

I am a keen fisherman and I have had a PETA member spray anti-angling graffitti on my car and physically assault me in a fishery car park. The whole lot of them are idiots on a powertrip and really couldn't give a damn about animals. As a keen monitor lizard breeder I know how our hobby educates us about the species and helps conserve them in the wild. As a fisherman I know how that hobby helps protect, conserve and improve our countries waterways. Not just for fish but the whole range of fauna and flora that rely on our rivers and lakes. 

PETA are a joke. A bunch of uneducated prats that are doing things for themselves rather than the animals they suggest they love.

Rant over!


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

You may want to edit your post as small kids read this section.
But I can see why you would be naffed off with PETA!
Lol


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## Barlow (Sep 23, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> You may want to edit your post as small kids read this section.
> But I can see why you would be naffed off with PETA!
> Lol


 Sorry. Sorted now.:2thumb:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Y're a good un!
Seriously tho.... Your car? 
What a bunch of nuggets.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

ive heard this before with peta. worse than rspca imho


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## caffers1982 (Jan 17, 2010)

Barlow said:


> I am a keen fisherman and I have had a PETA member spray anti-angling graffitti on my car and physically assault me in a fishery car park.
> 
> 
> Rant over!


I had a similar thing happen to me out hunting once. I do fox hunt but the irony was that it was a drag hunt that day!

Anyway, we lost the hunt so 5 of us were hacking through a village when we saw 4 activists standing by the side of the road

We ignored them as we rode past but one guy lunged forwards at my horses face. He was bringing arm up with something in his hand so I cracked him on the wrist with my stick 

Turned out to be a can of spray paint that he was about to use on my horses face

How anyone can call themselves an AR activist when they are willing to blind a horse I'll never know

Regardless of anyone's feelings towards hunting at the end of the day the horse was there because I was there...surely his misguided attempt at protesting should have been aimed at me?

Absolute mentalist...I'm glad I smashed his wrist!!


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## spottymint (Oct 3, 2010)

So, sad, but most likely true.

Hunt sabs, have no morals, so many ( but not all) are rich kids with no life & nothing better to do.

Blinding the horse ? Spraying with paint ? No animal lover there, just a sado with no life !


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## Salzburg (Oct 17, 2011)

I have no patience for PETA, they are a bunch of hypocrites. 
When the Crufts scandal hit in 2009 after the BBC documentary, PETA sent threatening letters to the Kennel Club saying they were going to attend the dog show and throw paint over the show dogs, and put drugs in their water supplies. 

I'm sorry but if you truly care about animals you wouldn't want to hurt them like that, even if there are problems with some pedigree breeds.

That's my little rant over, sorry about that :whistling2:


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## Draco (Nov 23, 2005)

I heard a story once not shore how true though, that some people from PETA, went to a dog show in the US open all the crate and let all the show dogs out, was near a main hy way and some gor knocked over and killed 

Heard so many storys about them now nothing suprise's me now


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## Polistes (Feb 20, 2012)

I am well aware of PETA's antics, them along with the Humane Society of The United states are the biggest threat to our hobby, and are actively trying to get all pet ownership outlawed, right now they are targeting the exotic pets because they are creepy and not "normal" once they get us its on to the mammals. Both the leaders of Peta and HSUS feel that animals are better off dead than "enslaved and exploited" by humans. 

And you know those sappy animal abuse commercials they put out around Christmas time? NONE of that money goes to the animals that they claim they want to help, instead they use it to bribe our politicians to pass anti pet ownership laws. Our hobby in the US is in grave danger.

And to top it off they are hypocrites, the leader of PETA uses medicine developed from animal testing, which PETA want to make illegal, and they justify that by saying its for the animals... and the leader of HSUS is rather crazy and extreme anti petownership. I believe he was quoted as saying he would have no issue of all the domestic animals made by man were killed off.

I have no clue about the ASPCA though, I am hoping they are more moderate.... but I don't know for sure.


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## clob91 (Jul 29, 2009)

watched a few documentaries about them, not fond myself either. to learn that they themselves kill willingly and push so much violence onto the general public is sickening.:censor:

also it still amazes me that Americans are so quick to the bullet when commenting.. somehow instead of talking about PETA it went on to planned parenthood and abortions, with all the Christians condemning pro-choicers to hell. >.< blergh:bash:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

In fairness, PETA are not a rescue. They do occasionally take animals from fur farms, scientific labs, or if they are literally dying, which they then mostly put to sleep. It's not the greatest thing in the world, and I personally would take a different route, but how many homes are out there for mink? 
We're not talking domestic cats and dogs like the RSPCA take, and they kill loads of animals too. Anything old, anything that doesn't get on with other dogs, anything that looks the slightest bit pit bull like, and if anything has been in a centre for 6 months then it's pts too. That's way worse in my book.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> In fairness, PETA are not a rescue. They do occasionally take animals from fur farms, scientific labs, or if they are literally dying, which they then mostly put to sleep. It's not the greatest thing in the world, and I personally would take a different route, but how many homes are out there for mink?
> We're not talking domestic cats and dogs like the RSPCA take, and they kill loads of animals too. Anything old, anything that doesn't get on with other dogs, anything that looks the slightest bit pit bull like, and if anything has been in a centre for 6 months then it's pts too. That's way worse in my book.


I'm sire if they tried they could find homes for more than 5% the spend half there donations on PR!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

DavieB said:


> I'm sire if they tried they could find homes for more than 5% the spend half there donations on PR!


100% true. However they have no rehoming or housing facilities. They are a campaigning charity, they have no set up for rescue.
This is PETAs side of the story (disturbing images, sorry!) - Why We Euthanise
And their response to the site promoting these stats - Response to PETA kills animals


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> 100% true. However they have no rehoming or housing facilities. They are a campaigning charity, they have no set up for rescue.
> This is PETAs side of the story (disturbing images, sorry!) - Why We Euthanise
> And their response to the site promoting these stats - Response to PETA kills animals


I find it hard to believe out of all the animals they take in even 25% are that bad. If they don;t have the facilities to take these animals then let them go to a pound where they have a chance of survival or someone talking them on. There must be a dogs trust type place or PDSA who could take these animals on. If they can't look after them then don't kill them. You will never know the real truth. One thing is for sure though PETA kills lots of animals. Thye have almost as good a PR machine as Apple too so I find it hard to believe anything taht comes out of there. 

Although I do believe they have done a lot of good with regards lab animals and other causes, maybe there are some things they should steer clear of.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

if they dont have the facilities to house the animals then dont get involved at all... its terrible.
who are they to say an animal is better off dead than a pet or whatever?

its the same with the RSPCA... if they cannot educate their 'officers' correctly then stay out of reptile keeping etc...

i hate all the scare mongering they involve themselves in... bad


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Unfortunately, someone has to put unwanted animals down while people still breed. In this country for example, we have pounds across the country who kill dogs and cats if not claimed after 7 days. I have no solid figures on the numbers but it is at least in the hundreds every week. I have done the work phoning rescues in order to find spaces for these animals, but there just isn't any there most of the time. The situation in America is way worse than here, according to this site - Pound Stats - 4-5 million have to be killed each year.
It's easy to say to not get involved, but if an animal has no other options, I'm not sure what else you could do?


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

given that the estimates for Petas income each year vary from between 25-39 million dollars... you'd have thought they'd have been able to pop up a shelter or two?:whistling2:

No, they'd rather use the money to buy spray cans to blind horse and graffiti peoples houses.
Instead of targetting people as individuals they should be doing what they claim to do...helping animals!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> given that the estimates for Petas income each year vary from between 25-39 million dollars... you'd have thought they'd have been able to pop up a shelter or two?:whistling2:
> 
> No, they'd rather use the money to buy spray cans to blind horse and graffiti peoples houses.
> Instead of targetting people as individuals they should be doing what they claim to do...helping animals!


Any proof that PETA has done either of those things?


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

i did see one programme where peta found out where a guy lived who was working in a lab... they posted poo thru his door.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> Any proof that PETA has done either of those things?


They don't condone it. But they certainly don't do it themselves.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Barlow said:


> Yeah it is true. PETA want to stop all ownership of any animal. I hate them.
> 
> I am a keen fisherman and I have had a PETA member spray anti-angling graffitti on my car and physically assault me in a fishery car park. The whole lot of them are idiots on a powertrip and really couldn't give a damn about animals. As a keen monitor lizard breeder I know how our hobby educates us about the species and helps conserve them in the wild. As a fisherman I know how that hobby helps protect, conserve and improve our countries waterways. Not just for fish but the whole range of fauna and flora that rely on our rivers and lakes.
> 
> ...





Salzburg said:


> I have no patience for PETA, they are a bunch of hypocrites.
> When the Crufts scandal hit in 2009 after the BBC documentary, PETA sent threatening letters to the Kennel Club saying they were going to attend the dog show and throw paint over the show dogs, and put drugs in their water supplies.
> 
> I'm sorry but if you truly care about animals you wouldn't want to hurt them like that, even if there are problems with some pedigree breeds.
> ...





Polistes said:


> I am well aware of PETA's antics, them along with the Humane Society of The United states are the biggest threat to our hobby, and are actively trying to get all pet ownership outlawed, right now they are targeting the exotic pets because they are creepy and not "normal" once they get us its on to the mammals. Both the leaders of Peta and HSUS feel that animals are better off dead than "enslaved and exploited" by humans.
> 
> And you know those sappy animal abuse commercials they put out around Christmas time? NONE of that money goes to the animals that they claim they want to help, instead they use it to bribe our politicians to pass anti pet ownership laws. Our hobby in the US is in grave danger.
> 
> ...


 
will these do?


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> will these do?



Peta have only 200 staff, they don't personally do these things by not condoing it they do however encourage it.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Being a member of PETA isn't the same as being employed by them, I was a member of PETA, might still be I'm not sure if that stuff expires? But they are certainly not responsible for my behaviour. Just because a nutter does something doesn't mean that PETA have told them to. PETA is a campaigning organisation (people for the ethical treatment of animals) and their campaigns are about raising awareness generally, or occasional letter writing en masse. They are not an animal liberation organisation or generally a frontline organisation. 
Again, I don't agree with everything they do, but they do great work in raising awareness of issues like animal testing, fur farming, and puppy mills.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

They may only have 200 staff but they have many more 'members' and followers if you like... so by turning a blind eye they mayas well do it themselves...
they dont go out there and say...
'ok guys, enough now... lets stop this and do it in a propper fashion'

these are american examples but...


_"If we really believe that animals have the same right to be free from pain and suffering at our hands, then, of course, we're going to be blowing things up and smashing windows. For the record, I don't do this stuff, but I advocate it. I think it's a great way to bring about animal liberation, considering the level of suffering, the atrocities."_
Bruce Friedrich, PeTA Campaign Director, Vegan Campaign Coordinator, Animal Rights 2001 Conference, July 2, 2001

NICE!
Here are the pamphlets that PeTA uses to target children​ During the past ten years, PeTA has spent four times as much on criminals and their legal defense than it has on shelters, spay-neuter programs, and other efforts that actually help animals

Two PeTA employees, Adria Joy Hinkle 27, of 1602 Claremont Ave., Norfolk, VA, and Andrew Benjamin Cook, 24, of 504 Tree Top Street, Virginia Beach, VA, were arrested in June 2005, for disposing of dead animals in a shopping center's dumpster. The animals had been killed by PeTA because they gave up trying to find a proper home for these animals to be placed. Police discovered 18 dead dogs, including a garbage bag containing seven puppies, in the dumpster and 13 more in a van registered to PeTA. It is a common practice for PeTA to euthanize healthy companion animals.


Aside from PeTA's well-financed euthanasia program and their donations to eco-terrorists, what other programs does spend their money. Of the $25+ million per year that is raised by PeTA, they are busy organizing such worthwhile projects as:

Donating $20,000 if the town of Hamburg, New York, changes its name to Veggieburg.
_"We did it. We did it. We gave $1,500 to the ELF,"_ said the president of People for the ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Lisa Lange, on Tuesday, 17 September 2002. The ELF (Environmental Liberation Front) is one of America's largest domestic terrorist groups and they have a long history of violence including arson, firebombing, explosives and attempted murder. And this is known throughout the Animal Rights Movement.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> Being a member of PETA isn't the same as being employed by them, I was a member of PETA, might still be I'm not sure if that stuff expires? But they are certainly not responsible for my behaviour. Just because a nutter does something doesn't mean that PETA have told them to. PETA is a campaigning organisation (people for the ethical treatment of animals) and their campaigns are about raising awareness generally, or occasional letter writing en masse. They are not an animal liberation organisation or generally a frontline organisation.
> Again, I don't agree with everything they do, but they do great work in raising awareness of issues like animal testing, fur farming, and puppy mills.


I wish they would leave pets alone. It will be down to an organisation like this that stops reptile keeping first then they will move onto ordinary petkeepers.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Look, i just think their slightly fluffy, glossy image they like to project is not quite what it seems...


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> Look, i just think their slightly fluffy, glossy image they like to project is not quite what it seems...


I agree with this, they do some good but they could do more with the funds they have available imho.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

DavieB said:


> I wish they would leave pets alone. It will be down to an organisation like this that stops reptile keeping first then they will move onto ordinary petkeepers.


Tbh, they do less harm than the RSPCA, they even help people keep pets that they probably shouldn't have like giving kennels to dogs who live on chains in gardens. I'd prefer they skipped some of their more frivolous campaigns, but without them I'm not sure we'd be as far along in animal rights as we are with them.
Rach1, of course they spend more money on lawsuits than shelters, they are not a rehoming charity. Did you know childline haven't spent any money on spay/neuter programs ever?? That's because like peta, it isn't part of their job.


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## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm sorry but there seems to be a lot of animal rights generalisation which I find offensive. I am a bit of an animal rights person. I am vegetarian (probably will be 'vegan' some day), i personally disagree with fox hunting, I am not very happy with fishing, I do not like animals used for human entertainment - that includes racing etc.
This is not me stirring things up this is me saying that I have opinions about things but I don't spray paint and lunge at peoples horses and all this. I think what you are talking about are vandals who give animals rights folk a bad name (including those which innocently campaign and do all they can in a civilise manner). Unfortunately the PETA does the same although I understand why they do what they do, doesn't mean I agree but they know that no publicity is bad publicity. At least they are doing something - too forceful and yes in ways hyocritical or not. 

The only thing I have found to disagree with the PETA on for sure is owning pets. If it wasn't for the time where people began to own pets then there would be no 'age of enlightenment' and people would not have put in place animal protection laws because owning pets is how people have discovered that other animals are not so different from humans and people may not have learned to empathise with them or value them. 

note: I am not saying anything in my post is fact. Just my view shared.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

I have to admit I'm not particularly animal rights. I think all pets should be looked after properly animals to be used as meat should have a high standard of life and be euthanised in as fast and pain free a way as possible. 

On the other hand though I enjoy fishing, I'd like to hunt game deer etc, and I would like to shoot pheasant never done any of the above bar the fishing but if I was to the meat would be used and I would not hunt more than I and my family could consume. I've practised catch and release while fishing too. 

I don't however agree with fishing endangered species or overfishing the way the spanish do. I do think that just because something is a whale doenst mean it shouldn't be fished for. There are whales the Japanese catch which are have suspect endangered labels (I mean they are not endangered at all) Certain methods carried out by Sea Shepherd and similar are all wrong. everything should be sustainable.

One thing that really pisses me off with fishing is when they ctch fish or crustaceans they dispose of them in shocking ways.

I guess I am animal rights. Just I can understand hunting and meat production.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

x Lindsay x said:


> I'm sorry but there seems to be a lot of animal rights generalisation which I find offensive. I am a bit of an animal rights person. I am vegetarian (probably will be 'vegan' some day), i personally disagree with fox hunting, I am not very happy with fishing, I do not like animals used for human entertainment - that includes racing etc.
> This is not me stirring things up this is me saying that I have opinions about things but I don't spray paint and lunge at peoples horses and all this. I think what you are talking about are vandals who give animals rights folk a bad name (including those which innocently campaign and do all they can in a civilise manner). Unfortunately the PETA does the same although I understand why they do what they do, doesn't mean I agree but they know that no publicity is bad publicity. At least they are doing something - too forceful and yes in ways hyocritical or not.
> 
> The only thing I have found to disagree with the PETA on for sure is owning pets. If it wasn't for the time where people began to own pets then there would be no 'age of enlightenment' and people would not have put in place animal protection laws because owning pets is how people have discovered that other animals are not so different from humans and people may not have learned to empathise with them or value them.
> ...


 
whilst i see what your saying, until PETA, for example, outright disagree with that kind of violence and aggression then people will continue it.
The mere fact that the vice chair has said he thinks blowing things up is a great way to bring about animal liberation is not a good starting point.


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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

Devi said:


> Again, I don't agree with everything they do, but they do great work in raising awareness of issues like animal testing, fur farming, and puppy mills.


No, they don't. Most of PETA's 'facts' about things like fur farming and animal testing are outdated or complete lies. Fur animals, for example, receive very high levels of care, and farms are nothing like what PETA claim.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

LiquidOnyx said:


> No, they don't. Most of PETA's 'facts' about things like fur farming and animal testing are outdated or complete lies. Fur animals, for example, receive very high levels of care, and farms are nothing like what PETA claim.



and probably staged. Funny how they always manage to find these places and sneak somebody in with a hidden camera.........


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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

Meko said:


> and probably staged. Funny how they always manage to find these places and sneak somebody in with a hidden camera.........


Yep, a lot of PETA's videos have been proven by courts to be staged. 

I get really fed up of people who've done nothing more then read a PETA article, and start calling me sick/disgusting/cruel for collecting animals pelts and fur parts. :bash:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

LiquidOnyx said:


> No, they don't. Most of PETA's 'facts' about things like fur farming and animal testing are outdated or complete lies. Fur animals, for example, receive very high levels of care, and farms are nothing like what PETA claim.


Some might, but not all by a long shot. Chinese farms are particularly terrible at the moment. It is also the case that methods that would not be permitted in meat slaughter are allowed in fur farms in order to preserve the pelt. This includes killing methods, the prevention of normal behaviour (foxes digging for example) and the lone keeping of social animals.
Further, fur is still an unnecessary commodity in this day and age, nobody bar a very few people NEEDS fur.


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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

Devi said:


> Some might, but not all by a long shot. Chinese farms are particularly terrible at the moment. It is also the case that methods that would not be permitted in meat slaughter are allowed in fur farms in order to preserve the pelt. This includes killing methods, the prevention of normal behaviour (foxes digging for example) and the lone keeping of social animals.
> Further, fur is still an unnecessary commodity in this day and age, nobody bar a very few people NEEDS fur.


That's why it's important to only buy from farms in country's with high welfare laws. 

And actually, an awful lot of study goes into the needs, behavior and welfare of fur animals. The current set-ups have been proven through extensive studies to be the best for the animals, and most farms provide things like nest boxes and play items, (logs, tunnels etc.) Even the sizes have proven to be the most effective, (foxes kept in larger cages were shown to exhibit much higher stress levels, for example.) Wire-floor caging is also essential for the animals hygiene. Animals kept on solid flooring often got dirty and sick, and studies showed that it made no difference to welfare what type of flooring they had, and that the ability to dig isn't needed.

Fur is also much better for the environment. Faux fur is incredibly damaging compared to real: Fur is green, an ecological choice in harmony with nature. Fur is Green homepage

Fur is no different from meat or leather. Neither are truly needed, but so long as the animals receive proper care, there's nothing wrong with it.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

LiquidOnyx said:


> That's why it's important to only buy from farms in country's with high welfare laws.
> 
> And actually, an awful lot of study goes into the needs, behavior and welfare of fur animals. The current set-ups have been proven through extensive studies to be the best for the animals, and most farms provide things like nest boxes and play items, (logs, tunnels etc.) Even the sizes have proven to be the most effective, (foxes kept in larger cages were shown to exhibit much higher stress levels, for example.) Wire-floor caging is also essential for the animals hygiene. Animals kept on solid flooring often got dirty and sick, and studies showed that it made no difference to welfare what type of flooring they had, and that the ability to dig isn't needed.


Pet chinchillas who are kept on wire floors have seriously damaged feet. There is no way that they magically change when kept in a fur farm. If these animals were cared for properly they'd be on solid floors with proper substrate. Foxes need places to hide, when kept in zoos they have been shown to need burrows and larger areas, yet somehow fur farms have produced private research that shows that they need small cages with no burrows? I wonder if they could be biased in some way to produce those results?
I see that you like fur and are not prepared to give that up, but you are kidding yourself if you think that it can be farmed in a humane manner. Although I do not agree with meat or leather and do not buy either, at least a cow can live a relatively natural life in a field with a bunch of other cows before it comes to slaughter. Fur animals can't.
It would be better to use zoo animals who have died or even pets who have lived natural lives, but those wouldn't have the perfect coats produced by an animal who has been intensively farmed.


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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

Devi said:


> Pet chinchillas who are kept on wire floors have seriously damaged feet. There is no way that they magically change when kept in a fur farm. If these animals were cared for properly they'd be on solid floors with proper substrate. Foxes need places to hide, when kept in zoos they have been shown to need burrows and larger areas, yet somehow fur farms have produced private research that shows that they need small cages with no burrows? I wonder if they could be biased in some way to produce those results?
> I see that you like fur and are not prepared to give that up, but you are kidding yourself if you think that it can be farmed in a humane manner. Although I do not agree with meat or leather and do not buy either, at least a cow can live a relatively natural life in a field with a bunch of other cows before it comes to slaughter. Fur animals can't.
> It would be better to use zoo animals who have died or even pets who have lived natural lives, but those wouldn't have the perfect coats produced by an animal who has been intensively farmed.


I know nothing about chinchillas, so I can't comment on that. 

And foxes do have burrows/hiding places in the form of wooden nest boxes. I dunno what studies have been carried out on zoo animals, but the studies I'm referring to involved the use of blood and urinary tests to determine the levels of stress hormones. 

And yes, I do believe fur animals can be raised humanly. That's why there are extensive laws protecting them, and fur animals, IMO, receive much better levels of care then most meat animals. WelFur : The animal welfare project on fur-farmed species

I used to be VERY anti-fur before I started doing some real, in-depth research into the subject.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Devi said:


> Tbh, they do less harm than the RSPCA, they even help people keep pets that they probably shouldn't have like giving kennels to dogs who live on chains in gardens. I'd prefer they skipped some of their more frivolous campaigns, but without them I'm not sure we'd be as far along in animal rights as we are with them.
> Rach1, *of course they spend more money on lawsuits than shelters, they are not a rehoming charity. Did you know childline haven't spent any money on spay/neuter programs ever?? That's because like peta, it isn't part of their job*.


 
Ok, fair enough. BUT....:hmm:if its not Peta's job to rehome all these pets etc then why do they continue to campaign for animals not to be used as companion animals then?
what do they think is going to happen to all our pets if they got their own way over night? are they really saying that to destroy all pets (dogs, cats horses etc etc) is better than them being loved and cared for?
Are we to turn them all out into the street?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> Ok, fair enough. BUT....:hmm:if its not Peta's job to rehome all these pets etc then why do they continue to campaign for animals not to be used as companion animals then?
> what do they think is going to happen to all our pets if they got their own way over night? are they really saying that to destroy all pets (dogs, cats horses etc etc) is better than them being loved and cared for?
> Are we to turn them all out into the street?


They don't. They have said that they believe the only way to prevent animal suffering is by nobody using animals for anything, including pets, but that is different from campaigning. They actually campaign for people to get rescue dogs like this -


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> They don't. They have said that they believe the only way to prevent animal suffering is by nobody using animals for anything, including pets, but that is different from campaigning. They actually campaign for people to get rescue dogs like this -
> image



Can I just get the angel? Do the models volunteer? 

People shouldn't be made to feel guilty for buying a pup though, not everyone can find the dog they need/want from a rescue. I for one have allergy issues and finding a dog mixed in with other dogs that would definitely flare my allergies up wouldn't be easy I searched for Airedales, Bouvier des Flandres and RBTs for rescue before getting my pup. If I wasn't suffering from allergies I'd brobably have rescued something like a GSD or Rottweiler possibly bull type dog.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

the only issue i have with that poster is the lines at the bottom...
buying animals, means killing animals....

well only because Peta puts them all down... and doesnt help to rehome them sensibly.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> the only issue i have with that poster is the lines at the bottom...
> buying animals, means killing animals....
> 
> well only because Peta puts them all down... and doesnt help to rehome them sensibly.


Tbf they are not the only ones putting animals down, like Devi said millions of dogs are euthanised a year in the US, PETA are not doing it all.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

DavieB said:


> Can I just get the angel? Do the models volunteer?
> 
> People shouldn't be made to feel guilty for buying a pup though, not everyone can find the dog they need/want from a rescue. I for one have allergy issues and finding a dog mixed in with other dogs that would definitely flare my allergies up wouldn't be easy I searched for Airedales, Bouvier des Flandres and RBTs for rescue before getting my pup. If I wasn't suffering from allergies I'd brobably have rescued something like a GSD or Rottweiler possibly bull type dog.


The models do volunteer for PETA, but not sure if they do home visits! 
It is true that dogs die because people buy dogs, each dog bought, even from great reputable breeders, is one less home for a rescue dog, which will then mean one more death that year. It's sad, but true.
However if your choice for the function the dog needs to perform can not be fulfilled by another dog then you have no choice.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I know that! LOL
but i think the reason i get so cross with them is that they do claim to be all about the animals... how can that be when they kill upwards of 90% of the animals they take in?
and if they know they cannot house them then why involve themselves in the first place... i was just reading an article that says they collect animals from shelters and say they will rehome them...and days later they were found in the back of a dumpster....
this included puppies and a mother cat with kittens... 
why did they take them if they knew they were gonna kill them... i really struggle to understand this?


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

they must use the term shelter at some places tho...


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> I know that! LOL
> but i think the reason i get so cross with them is that they do claim to be all about the animals... how can that be when they kill upwards of 90% of the animals they take in?
> and if they know they cannot house them then why involve themselves in the first place... i was just reading an article that says they collect animals from shelters and say they will rehome them...and days later they were found in the back of a dumpster....
> this included puppies and a mother cat with kittens...
> why did they take them if they knew they were gonna kill them... i really struggle to understand this?


I don't know the situation here, but in the past they've taken animals that are at the end of their last day from shelters where they gas animals and put them to sleep properly using the needle method. If you've seen the gassing you'd know why.


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## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

The PETA doesn't just talk about commercial fur farming but black market fur farming and all the rest as well. Whether they stage it or not it happens. I think the people who have not seen the videos on this subject should not comment about fur farming until they see it. A lot of animals are stolen dogs and cats often with their collars still on and they suffer intensely. And in terms of welfare in other aspects it may have improved but it is no where near good enough.

I do not really want to get into a debate about this disgusting subject but I have to say that I do not undertsand how people can defend it when it cannot be justified. Even if the welfare of these animals was totally acceptable we are living in the 21st Century not the stone age. How can people believe that the skin of those animals is ours to wear? 

And if the PETA lies and the welfare is actually good for these animals - how do you know this is actually true? and if you got this information from a particular source how do you not know that it is a lie. 

And one more thing. Ed Gein the serial killer liked to make vests and chairs and things out of peoples skin. I can bet people who do not disagree with fur may disagree with this but how is this different?. It is just as morbid if you ask me.

Again note: my opinions expressed no solid facts or intention to upset people.


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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

x Lindsay x said:


> The PETA doesn't just talk about commercial fur farming but black market fur farming and all the rest as well. Whether they stage it or not it happens. I think the people who have not seen the videos on this subject should not comment about fur farming until they see it. A lot of animals are stolen dogs and cats often with their collars still on and they suffer intensely. And in terms of welfare in other aspects it may have improved but it is no where near good enough.
> 
> I do not really want to get into a debate about this disgusting subject but I have to say that I do not undertsand how people can defend it when it cannot be justified. Even if the welfare of these animals was totally acceptable we are living in the 21st Century not the stone age. How can people believe that the skin of those animals is ours to wear?
> 
> ...


You can't compare the killing of animals to a serial killer. Although there is actually a company that makes clothing from donated human skin.

Fur is absolutely no different from meat, and my opinion is that it's perfectly acceptable to use animals for ANY purpose, so long as they're well cared for in life. My personal interest in pelts and fur comes from my love of animals. Owning a pelt creates a connection to that animal. Most of my pelts also come form totally wild animals. 

My belief comes from 7 years of reading every single piece of information I could find, both pro, anti and neutral. Here's a couple of interesting PDF's I have to hand;

http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/welfare/international/out67_en.pdf

http://accessible.iea.org.uk/files/upld-book17pdf?.pdf


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

liquid... what do you do with your pelts?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> liquid... what do you do with your pelts?


Mostly just hang them on the wall.


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## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

LiquidOnyx said:


> You can't compare the killing of animals to a serial killer. Although there is actually a company that makes clothing from donated human skin.
> 
> Fur is absolutely no different from meat, and my opinion is that it's perfectly acceptable to use animals for ANY purpose, so long as they're well cared for in life. My personal interest in pelts and fur comes from my love of animals. Owning a pelt creates a connection to that animal. Most of my pelts also come form totally wild animals.
> 
> ...


I can compare people who are cruel to animals to serial killers particularly because serial killers usually start with animal cruelty and ike i said that was only my opinion. Personally i think it is worse than meat because if you just want the skin what use is the rest of the body but still saying that it is the same as meat means nothing to a vegetarian like myself. I do not think it is acceptable to use *other* animals for any purpose because I don't think they are ours to use for any purpose. Saying we can use them for whatever we like is making out like we are superior to other species and I find that upsetting. Though I respect your opinion and it is interesting to see other views and thank you for uploading those documents I will find these to be useful


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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

x Lindsay x said:


> I can compare people who are cruel to animals to serial killers particularly because serial killers usually start with animal cruelty and ike i said that was only my opinion. Personally i think it is worse than meat because if you just want the skin what use is the rest of the body but still saying that it is the same as meat means nothing to a vegetarian like myself. I do not think it is acceptable to use *other* animals for any purpose because I don't think they are ours to use for any purpose. Saying we can use them for whatever we like is making out like we are superior to other species and I find that upsetting. Though I thank you for uploading those documents I will find these useful.


The meat is actually put to use. Some of it goes into animal feed, (including pet food), and the rest is used to make bio-diesel.

I do understand your point of view, though I also don't believe humans are superior, but I do think there's a big difference between killing a human and killing an animal, and I like to see animals put to use after death. Ideally, I prefer animals who have died of natural causes or for reasons such as food and population control, but I don't have an issue with fur farming if done right. Of cause, the fur industry isn't perfect, and there's definitely still improvements to made, but I don't believe it's anywhere near as bad as groups like PETA make it out to be, and I don't think wearing fur makes someone a bad person.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Lindsay- when you say you don't like the use of animals for any purpose do you include farming in that?
What about using horses for farming or pulling carts etc?
What do you define as for our use.
Please understand I am asking so I can understand or try to not cause I want to have a pop at you!


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## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

Rach1 said:


> Lindsay- when you say you don't like the use of animals for any purpose do you include farming in that?
> What about using horses for farming or pulling carts etc?
> What do you define as for our use.
> Please understand I am asking so I can understand or try to not cause I want to have a pop at you!


Haha no worries. I am not a fan of the use of draft horses or working animals in general. I agree and disagree with certain aspects and it depends. If it happened to be a loving farmer who had his horse work a very small amount and so the animal did not mind or suffer in any way and had a good life how could I disagree? I still may not like it but if I do not liek it it doesn't necessarily mean I disagree, for example, I dislike shooting, but I agree that it is necessary to be used in population control. It is difficult to say sometimes. But we have fallen into domestic species which in a way is a different kettle of fish as they appear more tolerant to these uses as they have been bred for that purpose and a domestic species does not exist properly in the wild... so again it makes it a bit tricky. But yeah when people say 'for our use' I think exploitation, use of their body parts, their use for human entertainment and all that sort of thing really. I understand why people have their opposing opinions and they have point but I always bare in mind when thinking about animals for human use is that I think other animals lives are as valuable as human life and a nice quote from Jeremy Bentham: "_the question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?"_


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

That is from his book isn't it.. Animal liberation or something?
That's on the PETA Website.


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## x Lindsay x (Jan 25, 2012)

Rach1 said:


> That is from his book isn't it.. Animal liberation or something?
> That's on the PETA Website.


I do not know as I havent read it yet , though it probably is as Peter Singer wrote animal liberation and he agrees with Bentham's views. 
But I have learned about Bentham and other thinkers during courses I have studied.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> That is from his book isn't it.. Animal liberation or something?
> That's on the PETA Website.


He also said this though... 

_I have never seen, nor ever can see, any objection to the putting of dogs and other inferior animals to pain, in the way of medical experiment, when that experiment has a determinate object, beneficial to mankind, accompanied with a fair prospect of the accomplishment of it. But I have a decided and insuperable objection to the putting of them to pain without any such view. To my apprehension, every act by which, without prospect of preponderant good, pain is knowingly and willingly produced in any being whatsoever, is an act of cruelty; and like other bad habits, the more the correspondent habit is indulged in, the stronger it grows, and the more frequently productive of its bad fruit. I am unable to comprehend how it should be, that to him to whom it is a matter of amusement to see a dog or horse suffer, it should not be matter of like amusement to see a man suffer; seeing, as I do, how much more morality as well as intelligence, an adult quadruped of those and many other species has in him, than any biped has for some months after he has been brought into existence._


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

The book was 'An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation', and it doesn't really matter if Bentham didn't wholly agree with it himself, you can agree to a statement while not agreeing with the speaker.
Hitler was an animal lover but we can hardly say we'd welcome him on this forum would we?


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Who wrote the one i thought of?


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Devi said:


> The book was 'An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation', and it doesn't really matter if Bentham didn't wholly agree with it himself, you can agree to a statement while not agreeing with the speaker.
> Hitler was an animal lover but we can hardly say we'd welcome him on this forum would we?


I was being a touch pedantic :lol2:


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

I have posted this on RFUK before but it does really give you an incite to the statistics of PETA: 

Bullshit! S02E01 - P.E.T.A (1/3) - YouTube

it's also highly amusing though a little shocking and awful when you think on it... :lol2:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

morning-star said:


> I have posted this on RFUK before but it does really give you an incite to the statistics of PETA:
> 
> Bullshit! S02E01 - P.E.T.A (1/3) - YouTube
> 
> it's also highly amusing though a little shocking and awful when you think on it... :lol2:


Not sure how a pair of novelty magicians can really decide what is ethical for animals? They seem to spend most of the show saying animals are crappy and animal rights people are cultists, nazis, and idiots. They even make the point repeatedly that the good people eat meat and the bad people don't. It's stupid and if anything damages the argument against PETA and every other animal rights organisation.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

LiquidOnyx said:


> I know nothing about chinchillas, so I can't comment on that.
> 
> And foxes do have burrows/hiding places in the form of wooden nest boxes. I dunno what studies have been carried out on zoo animals, but the studies I'm referring to involved the use of blood and urinary tests to determine the levels of stress hormones.
> 
> ...



Linking the EFBA to show 'real, in-depth research' is a little like the 'other side' linking to ALF to show how well read they are!

(I know you've linked to more than that, and read a lot more than that and much will be neutral or anti, but I just thought that was sort of funny)





x Lindsay x said:


> Personally i think it is worse than meat because if you just want the skin what use is the rest of the body but still saying that it is the same as meat means nothing to a vegetarian like myself. I do not think it is acceptable to use *other* animals for any purpose because I don't think they are ours to use for any purpose. Saying we can use them for whatever we like is making out like we are superior to other species and I find that upsetting. Though I respect your opinion and it is interesting to see other views and thank you for uploading those documents I will find these to be useful



I can't see how eating meat is making out that we are superior to other animals? After all, I'm assuming you don't have issues with cats, dogs, wolves, snakes, bears etc eating meat? I'm aware you don't have a 'problem'
with people eating meat, but I can't see how eating meat makes out humans as 'superior'?
Can I ask a question?

The


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

I have to say I'm not a huge fan of PETA. I think their aggressive advertising and tactics can sometimes do more harm than good. But people should remember that they are not the ONLY campaigning organisation and they certainly do not speak for everyone involved in animal rights.

I have been involved in lots of ar campaigns going back over twenty years. But it's not some religion with defined dos and donts. You will find people with very different views on pet ownership and many other issues.

I get sick of the stereotypes tbh. We're not all extremists, and I certainly don't know anyone who would target an animal, or a human for that matter.

Many of the changes we've seen in the last few years have come about because of campaigning and boycotts highlighting the plight of animals and shaping public opinion. Cosmetics testing, battery hens, circus animals ... a lot of change for the better.


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## LiquidOnyx (Aug 23, 2011)

bothrops said:


> Linking the EFBA to show 'real, in-depth research' is a little like the 'other side' linking to ALF to show how well read they are!
> 
> (I know you've linked to more than that, and read a lot more than that and much will be neutral or anti, but I just thought that was sort of funny)
> 
> ...


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