# Re vamp of my tank..



## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Alright guys... How is every one??.

I know I seen to drone on all the time about stuff.. but here I go.

I havr my 2ft x 1ft x 1ft tanks ideal for me as I'm still learning. Don't want nothing to big yet. It has mu 2 fbt toads in. Thing is i love the look of tem customised dart frogg vivs they look absolutly mint. Thing is i would like to make my tank look like that. With the expanding foam and the potted plants intergrated into the back going..so the questions i habe are would my tank size be suitable for this method of things and can my fbts live in that type of enviroment with the tropical rainforest theme?? Thanks guys and thank you for your help in advance Xx :2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I'll leave the decor tips to the enthusiasts, but so far as the FBTs go, they are pretty adaptable, although they'd benefit from a larger water area than is usually given to darts. I wouldn't heat the tank, though.


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Hey Ron. Aww right so they can do ok with still semi aquatic but with a partition in there.. and 
I plant to keep the lay out basically the same but just at a theme and get some nice decor in there. So would the little fellers be ok with things like broms and still?? X


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

They won't care one way or another which plants you use, so long as they are not too spikey or poisonous.


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Aww we thats good to know then. I plan to do it ASAP but does any one else have any other tips on what to do or what products to use?? Any hints and tips?? Thanks guys


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Fbt? exuse my ignorance but i'm terrible with the acronyms :bash:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

FBT = fire bellied toad

Also, PDF = poison dart frog and WTF = White's tree frog, main ones you will see on here. 

Ade


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> FBT = fire bellied toad
> 
> Also, PDF = poison dart frog and WTF = White's tree frog, main ones you will see on here.
> 
> Ade


 Awesome thanks :2thumb:


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Aww wolfenbrook, would you be so kind in pointing me in the right direction on foam for my lil project please? I don't want to buy some that can harm my frogs that's all..


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

You can't go wrong with this stuff Black Waterfall Expanding Foam and it is easy to carve as well. I have made this waterfall with it for my latest build.









Adam


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

aw pal thats looks mint that. Thing is i live near a screw fix centre and i was wondering can i use any type of foam as they have some offers on at the min thats all, But if not i could use that black stuff. Erm another question guys right when i am accually doing the back ground so i cover the whole of it in the foam and then put my bark and pots into it? or the other way round, Bark and wood down first them foam around it. ??>


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Keano said:


> aw pal thats looks mint that. Thing is i live near a screw fix centre and i was wondering can i use any type of foam as they have some offers on at the min thats all, But if not i could use that black stuff. Erm another question guys right when i am accually doing the back ground so i cover the whole of it in the foam and then put my bark and pots into it? or the other way round, Bark and wood down first them foam around it. ??>


As long as the foam is flammable, that is NO fire retardants it should be ok.

As for foam then decor or decor then foam is really up to you. I use black silicone on the areas where I am going to foam as it gives a better finish on the outside and gives the foam something to grab onto. I then arrange my decor and any big pieces of wood I tend to attach to egg crate to make it more secure. 

Have you decided how to attach the finishing substrate?

Adam


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

I massively appreciate that link Adam, I've been looking for black expanding foam for bloody ages and the only stuff I found was Great Stuff and I couldn't source that in this country. That stuff will look so much better from the outside of the viv when doing backs and sides.


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

aww right it has to be flamable them, Is it the flame retart stuff that is poisoness, Right then and when you mean egg create how does that work fella cause im really new to this i dont have a clue so i wanna try and get as much stuff together and get every thing i need together before i start foaming stuff lol, But i think i have it, Here we go, i can use a layer of black silicone first for the layer for the appearance of the outside or black foam yeah, Then i lay my peices of bark/wood down with the pots for dif plants, then foam around them?. Carve to my wish/opinion then cover with GG and then press my coco firbe sub down to that?.. does that sound right?. also would i do the same thing for my land and water partition?.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Yes that's about it. If you are using cork pieces just press them on. The egg crate you can find on eBay it's used in marine aquariums. We use it to creat a false bottom so the substrate can drain. It is not expensive a can be cut with scissors. I use a piece a bit bigger than the wood. I then attach the wood to the egg crate in the position I want it with wire or zip ties. Then I foam over it and it gives the wood more stability. You only really need to do this with big pieces of wood, smaller pieces just push in. This YouTube clip shows you the false bottom and may be the route you want to take. He uses egg crate for the whole back ground but its not necessary. I don't think much of his build but it's a good example to show you egg crate. 
40 Gal. Long Dart Frog Viv. Part 1 - YouTube


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

I understand the back and sides now that's spot on. Only other thing that i am struggling with is the bottom/substrate does my tank need to have a false bottom? If it does how do u go about doing that? If not then could I get some perspecs to partition the tank water/land?? The foam around it or do i do it another way? Sorry guys if I ask fact questions..


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

If you are going to use a divider then use glass. Perspex does not adhere well to glass and will probably leak. You can get glass cut to size with polished edges fairly cheap. You can then cover the glass with foam if you like. I then cover my foam with rockoflex, a bit like grout you can get it from here Miscellaneous Price List . This seals all the little bubble holes from you foam. Finally I use epoxy resin to cover the rockoflex and push the Ecco earth into this. For the water area I don't know how GG will stand up to being submerged so I would go with the epoxy or silicone. If the Ecco earth were to wash off in time if you have used epoxy or brown/black silicone it will still look good. Remember to apply silicone to the glass were the foam touches so it looks good from the outside. Once you have finished just use a Stanley knife to cut away the excess silicone. You can see the neat edge it gives on this old build of mine.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

If you want a water area, the easiest ways are to either use pebbles rather than hydroleca for your draingage layer (very important to have one), or construct a false bottom using filter grid, as detailed in the thread about building dart vivs (see the sticky of links at the top of this forum).

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

You can also see the false bottom on the viv in the picture. You don't have to use eggcrate just use clay balls, a mesh membrane then the substrate. Just make sure you put a piece of pipe down to the bottom so you can syphone any excess water off. You can use a turkey baster for this ( sorry guys I just had to say it!:lol2

Adam


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Clay balls are too light to dig out a pond area, they just fall in, hence I said pebbles. lol

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Clay balls are too light to dig out a pond area, they just fall in, hence I said pebbles. lol
> 
> Ade


I agree but I think he is going to partition the water area with a glass barrier so I was just suggesting it for the land area. 

If you use egg crate it will help cut down on the weight and it also makes it a little easier to drain excess water.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I was understanding that he was looking for the easiest way, a partition isn't it, hence pebbles. That's how I did my FBT viv, pebbles shored up with bogwood, covered with weed fabric and then the substrate. Has to be THE simplest way short of just floating cork.

Oh and for false bottoms pond filter grid is less fragile and cheaper than egg crate. It's easier to cut too.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I was understanding that he was looking for the easiest way, a partition isn't it, hence pebbles. That's how I did my FBT viv, pebbles shored up with bogwood, covered with weed fabric and then the substrate. Has to be THE simplest way short of just floating cork.
> 
> Ade


Fair point. Ron also suggested on a previous post using cork/cork tube wedged in place to hold back the substrate to act as a partition. 

You now have several options to choose from and all will work well.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye, with a few exceptions there's no right or wrong way, just choices.

This is what the pebbles method looks like:-










Extremely simple to do.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Very nice. Not only the easiest method but also cost effective. It all depends on budget and how elaborate you want to be. Do you intend to filter the water in this build?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Clay balls are too light to use in a pond area as more often than not they`ll float as they have air pockets in them.
Also they are easily knocked out of position.
If you use them for drainage use plastic mesh to separate them from your water feature and lay pebbles like you get for aquariums on top of the mesh and these will do a better job.
In my Leucs viv I used mesh then covered that with a couple of slates before putting the pebbles in. 
This gives the frogs an easy way in or out of the water and there is no soil being dragged in or out because of the slate giving a dry area.
Pics on here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/783750-just-stu.html

Mike


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

nice1 guys i really appriciate the help, Erm im still a little bit over welmed whe it comes to what to do, Im still a little confused, as my tank is a little bit on the smaller size i dont plan to use a filter as i can easiely do water changes weekly, at the minute i have pebles banked up to one side and then the water is filled up to where i want it, I dont like this method, So what i was thinking was to just patition it on the land side foam it out with wood and slate and then on the water side have the glass bottom and put gravel/pebbles in and do water changes weekly as what i have been doing with it now, im sorry if i am taking ages to grasp this lol, its soo new to me its taking me a while to get used to,


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

That method is fine, just keep the substrate level a bit lower than the partition to stop them dragging it into the water. The substrate side either use the clay balls or the egg crate to create the drainage layer. Just make sure you have some sort of access ( usually a bit of drain pipe) into the drainage layer to remove excess water. Otherwise it will become sodden and you plants won't thrive unless they are bog plants that is.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Also, if you have actual soil on the land side, my advice would be to cover it with moss or similar- FBTs are demons for dragging soil into the water and vice versa.


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

So basically I have to have a drainage point on the land side yeah?? So if i partition it then on the land side out some clay balls down then the egg crate over the top. Then some of then weed netting stuff to stop the sub from faking through. Meal while I need to have cut a lil bit of yhe create run some piping for excess water. Then from there sub a little lower then the bark and glass partition add some slate to hit the top of the drainage pipe. Does that sound ok??


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I don't filter my water area either. FBTs don't really like a lot of flow, so we just do water changes with HMA filtered water (not a fan of chemicals).

If you are using clay balls, you don't need to top them with egg crate. Just fill in your land area with the balls, push a pice of pipe with a v cut in the 'bottom' end down into this to the bottom so you can feed a bit of airline down it to syphon out any excess water that ends up in the drainage layer. You can then either skip soil completely and cover this with live moss Ron style, or you can use some insect netting (works better than weed fabric to be honest) on top of the clay balls, then put your soil substrate on top of the netting.

To be honest though, a false bottom made with filter grid is lighter and easier to maintain. Very very simple to do too. You just make little supports out of PVCu pipe (sold as waste pipe in DIY stores), or food tubs like I use from Asda, silicone them in, then cut your filter grid to size and put this on top of the supports. Cover with netting, add your substrate, job done. The bonus with the false bottom method is, no need for a partition, just make your false bottom higher than the max water level. Like this:-










You can see the bit left open where a pond was going, the big bit at the back houses a small water pump to run a cork water fall.  Like so:-










For FBTs you'd just false bottom a much smaller area (about 1/3rd of the tank floor) so the water area was larger, and perhaps construct the false bottom higher to allow for deeper water.

It's not half as complicated as it looks, if it was I wouldn't be able to do it. lol

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I don't filter my water area either. FBTs don't really like a lot of flow, so we just do water changes with HMA filtered water (not a fan of chemicals).
> 
> If you are using clay balls, you don't need to top them with egg crate. Just fill in your land area with the balls, push a pice of pipe with a v cut in the 'bottom' end down into this to the bottom so you can feed a bit of airline down it to syphon out any excess water that ends up in the drainage layer. You can then either skip soil completely and cover this with live moss Ron style, or you can use some insect netting (works better than weed fabric to be honest) on top of the clay balls, then put your soil substrate on top of the netting.
> 
> ...


Ade is right, it sounds a lot more complicated than it is. The insect mesh you can get off eBay for about £1 a meter. If you use the waste pipe just cut a groove in the bottom so that any drained water doesn't stagnate in the pipes. 

I am useless at DIY but found this method easy to do.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I don't filter my water area either. FBTs don't really like a lot of flow, so we just do water changes with HMA filtered water (not a fan of chemicals).
> 
> If you are using clay balls, you don't need to top them with egg crate. Just fill in your land area with the balls, push a pice of pipe with a v cut in the 'bottom' end down into this to the bottom so you can feed a bit of airline down it to syphon out any excess water that ends up in the drainage layer. You can then either skip soil completely and cover this with live moss Ron style, or you can use some insect netting (works better than weed fabric to be honest) on top of the clay balls, then put your soil substrate on top of the netting.
> 
> ...





fatlad69 said:


> Ade is right, it sounds a lot more complicated than it is. The insect mesh you can get off eBay for about £1 a meter. If you use the waste pipe just cut a groove in the bottom so that any drained water doesn't stagnate in the pipes.
> 
> I am useless at DIY but found this method easy to do.


Or nylon net curtain, cut to size :whistling2: Cheap, available from any curtain shop, and easy to use. If you are using leca, you don't need egg crate or other structural stuff- the idea behind that is having a space of open water under your land. You plan to fill the space with leca, so all you need is a drainage area. In this case, the formula is very simple: A layer of drainage material (leca, in your case), a barrier to stop soil falling through (weed membrane, nylon net curtain, etc) a layer of soil of your choice, a layer of moss or similar. The End.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Psst Ron, we already said that.  lol


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Psst Ron, we already said that.  lol


Clue from my work: repetion enhances. :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye bud, but you missed the point of the suggesting the false bottom, that been it removes the need of a partition in order to have a water area. 

Put yer glasses on. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Aye bud, but you missed the point of the suggesting the false bottom, that been it removes the need of a partition in order to have a water area.
> 
> Put yer glasses on. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Your contacts are fogging up- he already said he wanted to use leca...:whistling2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I wear glasses not contacts. Oh and he said clay balls, actuallllllyyyyyyy. lol


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I wear glasses not contacts. *Oh and he said clay balls, actuallllllyyyyyyy. lo*l


So, leca, then... *sigh*


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

No, could be hydroton, aquaclay pebbles or even hydroballs.

All Leca is expanded clay balls, not all expanded clay balls are Leca. :Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

And I say use pebbles.
And why ?
Just because I feel like it :whistling2:


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Would that be aquaclay pebbles, Unipac pebbles or B&Q chinese black pebbles? These things are important you know.... lol


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well if you bothered to read my earlier comment on this then you`d know which ones to use :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> Well if you bothered to read my earlier comment on this then you`d know which ones to use :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> 
> Mike


Can't, lost my glasses whilst looking for my contact lenses....:lol2:


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Well if you bothered to read my earlier comment on this then you`d know which ones to use :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> 
> Mike


Yeh, Mikes pebbles!:lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> Can't, lost my glasses whilst looking for my contact lenses....:lol2:


Now we know why you type so much sh:censor: :whistling2:


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> No, could be hydroton, aquaclay pebbles or even hydroballs.
> 
> All Leca is expanded clay balls, not all expanded clay balls are Leca. :Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:


Mine come from a shop belonging to what ArcadiaJohn would like to call the 'hydropunics community' :whistling2: And they are all the same thing, so stop being a git.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> Now we know why you type so much sh:censor: :whistling2:
> 
> 
> Mike


That's it, handbags at dawn! With your pebbles in a viv. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> Mine come from a shop belonging to what ArcadiaJohn would like to call the 'hydropunics community' :whistling2: And they are all the same thing, so stop being a git.


Oooh, Ron shops in a weed growers emporium!! :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na: Ner not really, they're tomato plants. :no1:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Yea well my pebbles are bigger than yours Ade :2thumb:


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> Yea well my pebbles are bigger than yours Ade :2thumb:
> 
> 
> Mike


Maybe, but I don't keep mine in a glass box....:Na_Na_Na_Na:

We should probably behave now, before we upset the OP. :lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> Maybe, but I don't keep mine in a glass box....:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> We should probably behave now, before we upset the OP. :lol2:


I agree Ade.
It`s all damn good fun though.
Oh and before I forget you keep yours in a thimble.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Oooh, Ron shops in a weed growers emporium!! :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na: Ner not really, they're tomato plants. :no1:


:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> I agree Ade.
> It`s all damn good fun though.
> Oh and before I forget you keep yours in a thimble.
> 
> ...


Could be worst, all Ron has is expanded clay balls... :lol2:

Sorry Ron, I just couldn't resist that one. 

I'll behave now, I promise. lol


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Could be worst, all Ron has is expanded clay balls... :lol2:
> 
> Sorry Ron, I just couldn't resist that one.
> 
> I'll behave now, I promise. lol


You have no idea...:gasp:


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

alright guys, i sorry for the late reply been busy doing som reading and stuff, i swear guys this is still baffeling my head lol, Im liking the thought of a false bottom, The only thing is i dont understand how it works :bash::bash: still, Im terrible unless im shown in front of me lol, if i use the egg crate, and make a false bottom and then have it all finished does the water still get under the false bottom?. sorry if that is a daft question?. its just i plan to use slate and moss as the base of the "floor" in stead of substrate, (siol of ecco earth) if that would work lol?.. i think i have come to grips with it lol. lemme know if there is something i have missed out lol.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Yep, the whole point of a false bottom is that water drips down into it. Slate and moss would work fine.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> Yep, the whole point of a false bottom is that water drips down into it. Slate and moss would work fine.


Agreed. Some of the pros of a false bottom are that it will hold more water and vivs are much lighter. Also they're easier to remove if you ever need to strip the tank down. Another biggy is that you can have a larger volume of water than that you can see in your water area, as it continues under your false bottom.

The down side is you tend to end up with some tanins in the water from the substrate, but you wont get this using slate, so it's a moot point. :2thumb:

Ade


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Aww roght now I think I am gettin the hang of this lol. And do I just hide the showing egg crate with pebbles on the water side??


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Yes pebbles, bog wood or you can silicone pieces of cork bark to hide its. So long as the water can get through hide the waterside with pretty much anything frog safe.


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm defanatly getting the hang of this now like lol. so is the egg create secured it place then? Or Jjst left free standing like wedged? Also just out of curiousity. I have tones of bark in my shed that u got from the local woods from a while ago can i use this in my foam back ground?? Also sorry guys i no im a pai. Lol. How do the plants pot get i.corparated then??


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> I massively appreciate that link Adam, I've been looking for black expanding foam for bloody ages and the only stuff I found was Great Stuff and I couldn't source that in this country. That stuff will look so much better from the outside of the viv when doing backs and sides.


It actually comes out more of a dark grey than black but I agree looks better than the creamy coloured stuff.

Adam


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Do you think it will be ok then guys for me to use the bark and wood I already had in my shed guys??


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Paging Ron, paging Ron. lol


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Keano said:


> Do you think it will be ok then guys for me to use the bark and wood I already had in my shed guys??


 Yes.


Wolfenrook said:


> Paging Ron, paging Ron. lol


 :lol2:


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Cheers lads for the help.. ill do one now leave has alone... Sorry one last question. When I put the pots in the foam for the plants do yhe plants need any thing doing to them before they go in??


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Keano said:


> I'm defanatly getting the hang of this now like lol. so is the egg create secured it place then? Or Jjst left free standing like wedged? Also just out of curiousity. I have tones of bark in my shed that u got from the local woods from a while ago can i use this in my foam back ground?? Also sorry guys i no im a pai. Lol. How do the plants pot get i.corparated then??


The eggcrate needs supports underneath made from pieces of drain pipe with a groove in the bottom to stop the water stagnating in the pipe.


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## Muggs (Feb 9, 2011)

fatlad69 said:


> The eggcrate needs supports underneath made from pieces of drain pipe with a groove in the bottom to stop the water stagnating in the pipe.


Or you can make legs for the eggcrate out of eggcrate, both work really well.


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Aww yeah I get yas.... Only thing I need to know bow is the products guys. What is the best Eco earth coco fibre or a mix? And the spots where the plants go on the back ground do I just foam round a pot for them to sit in?? Nearly there lol.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Substrate, Ecco earth, tree fern , orchid bark and cork pieces is what I used. Background cover Ecco earth is probably the easiest. Foam around plant pot in the back ground, you can plant straight into the substrate as well. A lot depends on the plants you buy.


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## Keano (Jul 16, 2012)

Well to be honest mate I'm not really planning on planting into the substrate i don't think as I'm going to have a lot of slate and moss.. but if i were to do this what would you suggest?? I hope to use brimstone and fern type plants. Mainly incorperated into the back going tho. Cheers fella


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