# morio worms substrate okay,



## Draven (Mar 7, 2009)

Would bran flakes (same but cheaper than all bran) ground down in a blender so its fine ans smooth be okay substrate and food source for morios?

Draven


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Don't use cereals for morio worms. They are not the same as mealworms !

They need humidity and the cereals will go mouldy. Use coir compost or fine wood dust/shavings or a mix of the two.


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

Blaptica said:


> Don't use cereals for morio worms. They are not the same as mealworms !
> 
> They need humidity and the cereals will go mouldy. Use coir compost or fine wood dust/shavings or a mix of the two.


yep, but unless your planning on breeding OP don't do this as when they get soil/compost etc to burrow in they will probably cocoon, the reason they don't in livefood tubs is because they keep getting touched by other morio worms, this stops them attempting it.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

You obviously know that they need to be kept seperate to pupate so why do you think simply placing them in coir/wood shavings will make them pupate ? I breed around 1.5-2 kilos a week and have been doing this for years, so I can tell you the substrate I recommend will not lead to pupation without seperation of larvae. I don't suppose Draven was planning on keeping them in individual tubs ?


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

If you keep morios/ giant mealworms in the substrate I suggest you can store them for many months without them dying. For example i was feeding morios to my lizards this spring that were hatched last July (2008). 

Bran may reduce the ability of you reptile to absorb calcium in the diet (it contains phytic acid). Don't use bran flakes or similiar products !


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## Draven (Mar 7, 2009)

Ah I just guessed since they're name is giant mealworm it was just a bigger version of that!
Sorry for the noobishness! 
So which is best out of the? Id prefer to use fine wood shavings tbh.. do you have to make sure its wet all the way through? (Obv not soaking).. how come you can't just use two tubs and swap the beetles around the two tubs?


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

The two species look quite similiar but you need to treat them differently. Actually I use wood "dust". What i use would be difficult to get in the uk, its fine particles like the size of a very fine gravel. Its important its not from treated wood (nasty glues & preservatives etc). Alot of modern composts used for growing seeds are from composted bark and that would be good. 

It shouldn't be wet, just damp. Its important that you use lots of tubs becasuse small mealworms will find and eat the eggs. So the way i describe it you need to start with a tub without other mealworms. You change it every week because after a week mealworms hatch, and as they grow they will start to eat eggs too. If you change the box weekly all the eggs hatch ok as long as the environment is humid. Also if the beetles find the small larvae they will eat them too !

So you can bred them in just a couple of boxes, but it would not be very productive. If you want a simple insect with just one or two cages, stick to roaches !


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## Juzza12 (Jun 12, 2008)

I use wheat bran for keeping and breeding them in and it works fine so you could use blended bran flakes. Just sift the waste out of the tub and replace when it's all eaten.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Is this going to provide good nutrition for your reptiles ? 

What about the calcium problem ?


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## Juzza12 (Jun 12, 2008)

With the amount of fresh veg the morios get which is changed daily, yes. As for the calcium problem, what's your source? Every care and breeding guide i've read, except for yours, suggests wheat bran.


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## sunnyskeg (Jul 3, 2008)

Keep ours in wheat bran never had a prob,give them plenty of sliced carrot ,apples etc.All the care sheets iv read suggest doing it this way


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## Nihlus (Jul 15, 2009)

Same here most guides recommend wheat bran or rolled oats. Most of the video guides on youtube use these or crushed wheatabix


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## Jas (Mar 9, 2005)

Bran will keep your livefoods alive until they are fed to your herps but will do nothing at all to improving the nutritional value of the feeders but will infact further unbalance the Calcium/Phosphorus levels of your feeders. Ideally the insect you feed would be 2:1 Cal/Phos but morios are near 1:2 and Bran is high in Phosphorus. The whole point of gutloading is to not just feed anything to the insects to keep them alive but to provide as wide a range of vitamins and minerals to them so they then get passed onto your herp.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Juzza12 said:


> I use wheat bran for keeping and breeding them in and it works fine so you could use blended bran flakes. Just sift the waste out of the tub and replace when it's all eaten.


Can you tell us how many larvae you get per week (in weight) you get for how many adult breeding beetles ? Your method could be a tenth as productive or ten times as productive as my method. Just because it works, it doesn't mean its the best method.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Nihlus said:


> Same here most guides recommend wheat bran or rolled oats. Most of the video guides on youtube use these or crushed wheatabix


doesn't mean its correct.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Juzza12 said:


> With the amount of fresh veg the morios get which is changed daily, yes. As for the calcium problem, what's your source? Every care and breeding guide i've read, except for yours, suggests wheat bran.


yes a variety of fresh veg is good, but I ask again what about the calcium problem with bran ? There is plenty of evidence that bran inhibits calcium absorbtion. The mealworms might appear healthy but are they nutritious for your reptiles ? How many of your lizards breed and produce good eggs that hatch well ? I already this year have 90+ clutches of lizard eggs in my incubator or already hatched. The hatching rate is very good, most of the eggs hatch. I am probably the only person in Europe breeding Aussie water dragons and they are fed around 60-70 % giant mealworms. Most clutches have 100% hatching rate with only one clutch this year having more than one duff egg.

I need to add a litlle calcium to my worms to make them ideal, I am not feeding them something that actively makes it more difficult for my reptile to absorb calcium !

My lizards get about one in 6 meals dusted with pure calcium carbonate, some calcium in the food, and also they eat some crushed chicken egg shells.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

sunnyskeg said:


> Keep ours in wheat bran never had a prob,give them plenty of sliced carrot ,apples etc.All the care sheets iv read suggest doing it this way


 
What do you mean never had a problem ? Problem with what ? Are the care sheets written by people who breed a couple of kilos a week ?


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

Jas said:


> Bran will keep your livefoods alive until they are fed to your herps but will do nothing at all to improving the nutritional value of the feeders but will infact further unbalance the Calcium/Phosphorus levels of your feeders. Ideally the insect you feed would be 2:1 Cal/Phos but morios are near 1:2 and Bran is high in Phosphorus. The whole point of gutloading is to not just feed anything to the insects to keep them alive but to provide as wide a range of vitamins and minerals to them so they then get passed onto your herp.


Interesting because Jas breeds some very unusual lizards very sucessfully. One of the best Lizard breeders in the UK. Is this a coincidence ?


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## Nihlus (Jul 15, 2009)

Blaptica said:


> doesn't mean its correct.


You right, but if there's one thing that I have learnt from keeping reptiles its that there is no right way to do things, everyone has there own differences that work for them.

I have done all diggin to find out what coir is and what its nutritional value is and what I found was its about the same as bran(little to no calcium and exetremely high phosphorus levels). The only real advantage that it has is that it holds moisture without the potential for it to go moldy, like you said. In my opinion if someone wants to use bran and they keep an eye on the substrate then there really shouldn't be any problems.


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

When you say "that work for them" doesn't that depend on how healthy the reptile is on that diet, whether its able to produce good eggs ? I would be interested in what sort of breeding results those that use alot of bran get.

Coir is the hairy husk from the outside of a coconut. Blimey if bran has similiar nutritional value then that really makes my point ! Its not meant as a food. The mealworms live in it and you place small amounts of NUTRITIOUS food on the surface every 24-48 hours

One of the first things you should know when you keep reptiles is that the UV light in the tank in almost always going to be inferior to what the animal has in the wild. Next you need to know that reptiles need extra calcium supplementation and that alot of the health problems lizards in particular suffer from stems from these facts. 

So It seems really perverse to use bran, one of the only food stuffs capable of reducing the capacity of the reptile to absorb calcium !


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## Juzza12 (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't weigh my morio worms because 1 there is no need to do so, and 2 i don't need to come on here and have a pissing contest over who breeds the most. I breed enough on a small scale for 3 lizards that eat them every day, contrary to your belief it can be and is easily done in small amounts. Sorry blaptica but you seem incredibly arrogant and basicaly refuse to accept any method that isn't your own. Every post i've seen of yours is argumentative and rude? As for successful clutches, my lizards are my pets they are not breeding machines for me to make money off. All of my animals are healthy and have never had any health problems, my female cwd has also sucessfully laid around 6 infertile clutches without any egg binding issues.
You have hundreds of animals, you breed 1.5 - 2kg of morio worms a week, you've had however many sucessful clutches, your method is the best and you're the only breeder of AWDs in europe. Take your head out of your ass and stop coming on this site purely to let everyone know how much better you think you are. what's next? "my dad's harder than your dad"


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

I was interested to see which method produced the more weight of larvae per adult beetle. That would be a good indication of which method was more sucessful. It doesn't really matter how much I produce if I doubled the number of beetles I would produce double the number of larvae. The reason for telling you that I produced x amount was to prove that my method works. It is based on somebodies elses method who at one time produced hundreds of kilos a week.

Breeding machines ? I am not talking about your water dragon because i assume she is on her own ? But generally speaking if lizards keep producing crap eggs that could because of a crap diet. Actually I keep my lizards in cages with at least 2x2 metres floor space, and if they produce good eggs I think that means I am getting the diet and care right. i keep them in a much less intensive way than many hobbyists would indoors with never any "off" days where the sun (or indoors the light bulb/ceramic) never shines. I could get alot more eggs if I kept them indoors and pumped them full of vit d3. 

Several people had recommended using bran and I wanted to to put the other side. Please tell me where I have been rude ? I thought forums were places for discussions and arguements ?


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

I have bought a tub of morios, left them in a huge compost earth mixture and within a month they had pupated and become large beetles, now waiting for the little morios to start appearing.

It's a myth as they will pupate when they are ready regardless if what others are around and i have managed to prove it.

Blaptica you are indeed being rude and come across as trying to force your methods on other people, the OP asked abour Bran so lets stick to topic

Also might i add here that Bran Flakes contain alot of good stuff along with vitamins etc. reading the box as we speak


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

"left them in a huge compost earth mixture" that gives the game away. If they have enough space around them they will pupate i.e. if kept at very low densities. But at high densities you can store fully grown larvae for 6 months or more. THAT is not a myth.

Forum members here can do what they like. But nobody who advocates bran will explain why are not concerned about the fact it can reduce the absorbsion of calcium in the stomach ? I would rather use weetabix or oats rather than bran for that reason. What makes bran better than other cereals you could use without the risks I have mentioned ? 

Explaining why I think its best not to use bran for the sake of your animals IS staying on topic.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Blaptica said:


> "left them in a huge compost earth mixture" that gives the game away. If they have enough space around them they will pupate i.e. if kept at very low densities. But at high densities you can store fully grown larvae for 6 months or more. THAT is not a myth.
> 
> Forum members here can do what they like. But nobody who advocates bran will explain why are not concerned about the fact it can reduce the absorbsion of calcium in the stomach ? I would rather use weetabix or oats rather than bran for that reason. What makes bran better than other cereals you could use without the risks I have mentioned ?
> 
> Explaining why I think its best not to use bran for the sake of your animals IS staying on topic.


 
Not when your pushing your methods on others it isnt :bash:


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## Blaptica (Jun 26, 2008)

I dont know what you mean by pushing my methods ? Its just advice. Isn't that what everybody is doing sharing their thoughts and experiences ?

You don't have to agree with me.


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