# How long left to live without food?



## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

My toad hasn't eaten for 2 weeks now. There's no vet I can take it to near me so im out of luck. How long will it have if it continues to not eat?


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Awww no 
Have you tried looking on http://www.rcvs.org.uk/ (Click find a vet and chuck in your postcode...then just click each one that shows up and it'll tell you if they treat exotics) Website is down right now tho

Got in touch with my local 'exotic' vet today and was told no1 there knows about amphibs but they did give me the name and number of someone at another branch who do so i'm gonna give em a ring tomorrow and see what they say.


As for your original question, my little guy is still hanging in there and still reasonably active (When I take his hide away atleast) and I don't think he's eaten since about November which is when they started 'hibernating'. He's lost 0.2 grams in 2 1/2 weeks so isn't managing to eat on the sly either.

I woke up to a dead toad this morning. My smallest one, facedown in the water bowl  Not sure what happened, there's a twig in it for them to climb/hang onto and its one with the steps in the corner...but he was shedding so I can only presume his feet got tangled in his own skin and he couldn't haul himself out. (Needless to say i've added big flat rocks etc so none of the others have trouble)
Also looks like one of my others is heading the same way as my non-eater, he's still managing to catch food but takes a good few 'flicks' at it and today didn't catch anything...problem is what he can catch is mealies which can't be dusted easily...hope my small phoenix worms get here soon


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I read the vet gives them an injection of calcium to cure mbd, so i tried putting it in a tub of shallow water mixed with calcium + d3 powder and made some paste with it and put some on its back, hopefully it can absorb calcium this way. 

I also did this again tonight with a little bit of sugar in the water also. it had a go at getting some crickets but all it does is bob its head like its mouths stuck or something. It only ever does this motion when it can see crickets around it, it never turns to look at them though like it used to...


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## reaper1 (Oct 28, 2007)

Red devil , If you can not care for the animal properly then why did you make the decision to remove it from its natural habitat, it goes to say that in some form or other, all of englands amphibians are going into decline.

It's probably too late now as from what its sounds youve attempted to hibernate the animal, which means its natural cycle will have been disrupted by an unsuccesful brumination. my first advice is to look harder and further a field for a vet with the correct knowledge on how to deal with the matter.

failing that, try feed the animals on alternative foods, if you live near a bait shop, worms make great amphibian food. id suggest a clinical set up aswell, damp paper towels with cut in half card board tissue roles for cover and hiding places.

if all goes well and the habitat from which they were removed from still exists, my advice would be to reintroduce them to it, britains food chain is fragile as it is, and those animals could provide a vital meal for a winter weary predator, or even go onto to produce a new generation of toads.

Andaroo : be careful applying medication in that way to an amphibian, the paste and medication in the water could easily block the pores in the creatures skin, which in turn will cause breathing difficulties.


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## georgieabc123 (Jul 17, 2008)

where are ???


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

reaper1 said:


> If you can not care for the animal properly then why did you make the decision to remove it from its natural habitat


I CAN and AM caring for them. Their problems are either genetically related, or due to the fact that before I found this forum, most of the caresheets i'd read on toads were to dust food with CALCIUM dust which is what I was doing twice a week. They were kept in a perfect environment outside in the garage and were fed daily with appropriately sized foods dusted twice a week.



reaper1 said:


> It's probably too late now as from what its sounds youve attempted to hibernate the animal, which means its natural cycle will have been disrupted by an unsuccesful brumination.


They were kept in the garage in a 4ft tank so therefore no attempts at hibernation were made and its natural cycle was perfectly natural.
I only removed them from the garage as I had a couple of fatalities.




reaper1 said:


> my first advice is to look harder and further a field for a vet with the correct knowledge on how to deal with the matter.


As I said in the above post, I've been given the name and number of another branch 5 miles away who has an exotic expert.



reaper1 said:


> failing that, try feed the animals on alternative foods


Tried him with Crickets (Black & Brown), Mealworms, Waxworms, Woodlice & phoenix worms




reaper1 said:


> those animals could provide a vital meal for a winter weary predator


Yeah brilliant, lets do that. Chuck em back after rearing them from tadpoles and watch as they're eaten by a grass snake or heron.


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## reaper1 (Oct 28, 2007)

well theres a factor somewhere that we need to unearth, lets start with the enclosure.

4 foot sounds great and from what youve said its been decorated to a good enough standard, physically there probably isnt anything wrong with it (but with out seeing thats an asumption) 

how ever, if your going to allow the british climate to cycle tham naturally, then theres certain precautions that you need to under take, terrestrial amphibians hibernate, or at the least live through winter by burrowing very deep, remember they have to dig below the frost level, granted they are in a garage, they would still need at the very least a foot or so of substrate. the second major factor, and natures way of culling the weak, is that the animals need to be in absolute tip top condition before hibernating, this isnt just good husbandary, its natural selection, only the strongest make it through hibernation to breed. if there young then chances are there one of the many toadlets that do not make it to adult size, as im sure you know its something like 5/100 toads/frogs make it to there frist breeding season.

the correct way of leaving them to there own devices in a garage set up would be to feed them like pigs from june till september, and then stop feeding them full stop until the last of the march frosts. in such cold weather, disturbing/ attempting to feed them would disrupt there slumber, and any food that they do ingest will likely decompose in there stomachs as their body temperature would not be sufficient enough to allow digestion. (like you get with a snake in a cold tank) 

as that option is now a little too late, the course of action that your pursuing would probably be the best, the only point i still wish to stress is to try out earth worms or bait worms from a tackle shop, i wouldnt worry about calcium at the moment, just make sure theres some kind of feeding reaction taking place first.

and last on the agenda, if you did (not saying you have to) make the decision to release them back into the wild, being eaten by a heron/fox/ fish ect. is just as much a success as them going on to breed in a pond, in the habitats that amphibians occur, they can be a vital link in the food chain. thats why females give brith to so many young, its a good thing they get eaten not only for the predators survival, but for the toads survival aswell, id dread to imagine what would happen if a full clutch of eggs made it to adult hood, it would be an epidemic.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Why can't you reach either of the vets I gave the addresses for? And where exactly are you in West Lancs?

I'm beginning to find the dire situation for this animal and the lack of treatment really upsetting.

There is no option at this point other than to find a qualified Herp vet, I have supplied you with addresses so they do exist, at this point were talking about neglect through inability to provide suitable medical care.

Sorry, but I think this animal deserves more effort on your part. Get a train, get a bus, get a lift from a friend.
Lotte***


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

andaroo said:


> I read the vet gives them an injection of calcium to cure mbd, so i tried putting it in a tub of shallow water mixed with calcium + d3 powder and made some paste with it and put some on its back, hopefully it can absorb calcium this way.
> 
> I also did this again tonight with a little bit of sugar in the water also. it had a go at getting some crickets but all it does is bob its head like its mouths stuck or something. It only ever does this motion when it can see crickets around it, it never turns to look at them though like it used to...


 
The only thing you are going to achieve this way is skin problems if not infections.

This animal needs a vet to assess it but please, if you want to try some DIY, get a UV, get some calcium gluconate (or calcium sandoz for human use if you can't find it).


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> Why can't you reach either of the vets I gave the addresses for? And where exactly are you in West Lancs?
> 
> I'm beginning to find the dire situation for this animal and the lack of treatment really upsetting.
> 
> ...


Your right, I will call Pennine vets tomorrow to see if they can help me. I was hoping my DIY would do something but its toes are curling and hands are facing the wrong way when it sits. 

The calcium gluconate, what is that and how do i use it on my toady? 

Are you sure a vet can help a tiny common toad?


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

andaroo said:


> Your right, I will call Pennine vets tomorrow to see if they can help me. I was hoping my DIY would do something but its toes are curling and hands are facing the wrong way when it sits.
> 
> The calcium gluconate, what is that and how do i use it on my toady?
> 
> Are you sure a vet can help a tiny common toad?


Both of the vets I gave you the addresses of, especially Ashleigh in Chorlton, will be able to at least attempt treatment of this toad.

At my work we examine, treat/inject and perform surgery on even 3gram amphibians, it is possible and it is better than just not trying.

Calcium gluconate is an injectable form of calcium the Vet is likely to use to inject and help stabilise your toad, it can also be applied topically to the skin and lightly spread over the back to be absorbed OR added to the water, thing is, without having been to a vet and X-rayed him to at least have an impression of the damage done already and level of bone density, you just don't know how much needs to be done for him.

A UV tube is a must at this point, if it is diagnosed as MBD a 10% tube with a reflector will rapidly help him.

Lotte***


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I was just about to order a 10% UV reptisun bulb but im not sure what fitting i need for it.

How much is the vet going to cost me? Should i wait until after the vets to get the lamp or just get it anyway?

Thanks Lotte, i like your sterness and am greatful for all ur help xxxx*http://www.livefoods.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=515*


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Update:

Got the lamp up and running.

Toady ate a meal worm 10 minutes later! (got it with its mouth without using its tongue, but its a start!)

It extremely active now with this lamp it's literally doing laps and laps of its tank climbing all over the fake plant and its water dish 

Thing are on the up:2thumb:


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Great news 
Let us know what the vet has to say 

I'm ringing ANOTHER vets tomorrow to try and get mine looked at (Now 3 who can't eat and one showing symptoms  Grrr) 

Last vet I spoke to who was apparently an exotic expert (Later found out she only knows a little), decided to tell me that they probably hadn't come out of hibernation fully yet and to move my tank nearer to a window and keep the humidity above 40%. (Even a child could come up with something like that !!!) I explained I had a UVB bulb, she told me it made no difference because they were native species and it wouldn't help, they need natural springtime sunlight !!!

Hense why i've found another vets who are apparently brilliant (Cost & Service) and have ppl there who are actual Experts not just blagging it for more business !!


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

good luck at the vets andaroo, I hope it's good news xx


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Vets is at 5pm, gotta drive an hour away  £24.25 for the consultation and then anything on top of that for treatment. 
Bet the woman had a laugh when i told her it was called Turnip


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## jennlovesfrogs (Jan 22, 2009)

well, turnip isn't too bad, my poor vet had a funny look on his face when calling out my frogs names LOL friggy, froggy and goggy!


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