# breeding and culling own rats?



## jonnyclayton

hello i have royal and my local shop were i buy my rats from the snake loved them and ive noticed the last few are rubbish and the snake seems to think the same, so i am after as much info on how to cull the rat as cheap as possible plus i then know how well the rats have been cared for cheers


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## Raynor_NFFC

Edit*


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## Spideypidey

My reply is the same as I posted in the mice thread, Animal Welfare Act 2006


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## mitsi

I breed and cull my own rats, get them to the size I need then quick hit on back of head over in seconds.


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## jonnyclayton

Have I wrote summit I shouldn't?


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## mitsi

No why, as long as you feed clean and water the rats you are breeding before you cull any babies thats fine, some people just automatically assume that if you are breeding you are live feeding, take no notice, as I said, as long as they are well looked after before culling theres no problem.


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## jonnyclayton

Are I wouldn't feed not well looked after to me it's just as important as the snake


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## Spideypidey

jonnyclayton said:


> Have I wrote summit I shouldn't?


It depends on who is reading it. I'm posting about U.K. law although I don't necessarily disagree with breeding rodents to use as live or dead food. As I understand the situation it's ok to kill mice and rats which have infested the home but breeding rodents to kill and use as live food could be questionable. But what it eventually comes down to is the quality of care of the rodents before they are killed and also the quality of care of the breeding stock. It becomes more questionable when a live rodent is put into an enclosure with a predator where it has no chance of escaping.

It's probably significant that in general pet shops don't sell live rodents to use as food and if they know you're going to use them as live food they won't sell to you.

But whatever the law, we should consider that some people think that breeding rodents to use as food for any animal is cruelty and will report it to the R.S.P.C.A. In that case at the least you'll have the R.S.P.C.A. breathing down your neck. So if you're doing it keep quiet about it and don't tempt fate.


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## mitsi

Have to disagree, as long as they are culled humanely and looked after well beforehand, there are no problems, my rats are not pets and are only there to serve a purpose just on a smaller scale than the big suppliers thats all, I would never live feed, to dangerous for the reptile involved, and the rspca can only breathe down your neck if you let them in to see what you are doing and we all know you dont have to.


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## Spideypidey

mitsi said:


> Have to disagree, as long as they are culled humanely and looked after well beforehand, there are no problems, my rats are not pets and are only there to serve a purpose just on a smaller scale than the big suppliers thats all, I would never live feed, to dangerous for the reptile involved, and the rspca can only breathe down your neck if you let them in to see what you are doing and we all know you dont have to.


In the case that the R.S.P.C.A. has reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed or under the terms of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 is likely to be committed in the near future, they could pass it to an Animal Welfare Officer or the Police and they do have right of access.

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 covers all animals and not just pets.


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## Raynor_NFFC

I find the best way to cull is by C02.

Build a gas chamber, treat the rats well and your all good : victory:


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## rickpellen

I personally find the CO2 chambers to be quite slow an overly traumatic, just break their necks. This is a perfectly legal way of doing it and is actually quicker.


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## Raynor_NFFC

See I find kneck breaking worse.... all the twitching and kicking from their nervous system

30 seconds of gas and they just fall asleep.

However, each to their own, more than one way to skin a cat : victory:


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## jonnyclayton

So basically I shouldn't keep and cull rats that's that plan sorted I'm not gonna enter anything were I may get in trouble


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## bothrops

jonnyclayton said:


> So basically I shouldn't keep and cull rats that's that plan sorted I'm not gonna enter anything were I may get in trouble


There is absolutely nothing that you would or could get into trouble for.


There is absolutely nothing AT ALL in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 that prevents you from breeding rats and using them to feed your pet reptiles.

In fact, it is even perfectly legal for you to raise animals at your own property and kill them yourself to eat yourself (provided you process them correctly and do not sell the meat or commercially benefit from it) including, but not limited to, chickens, sheep, pigs or even cattle.

Food Standards Agency - Home slaughter of livestock: A guide to the law in England and Wales

The idea that raising rats and mice for consumption by snakes in any way contravenes the law is preposterous.

The RSPCA even publishes guidelines on appropriate, recognised methods of humane culling.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232725801616&mode=prd





I lecture in Animal Management for a living. I also bred rats and mice at home to feed my reptiles for years. I only stopped a year ago as I reduced my collection of reptiles and was spending more time looking after the rodents than the snakes!

Breeding your own means you can ensure they get the best possible care and the best possible food. They can be kept in much better conditions with more attention and less competition than any commercial outfit can attain.

Provided you humanely euthanase the animals before feeding their isn't even a grey area - it is 100% legal.

(I usually used CO2 for convenience and a personal consideration of it being the least 'risky' in terms of 'getting it wrong', but I would also use cervical dislocation)


In reality, (though I do not condone or encourage it) it is not even strictly *illegal* to feed the animals that you breed to your snakes live should you choose to.

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is NOT explicit when it comes to feeding live vertebrates to other vertebrates. The five animal welfare needs are ambiguous on this point (unnecessary suffering for mouse vs needs to express natural behaviour for snake). The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is, to date, untested in this scenario and nobody has ever been prosecuted under the act for feeding a live mouse or rat to a snake in a private setting. Until the Act is tested in a court of law and a legal precedent is set, it remains a grey area and it is neither explicitly legal nor illegal. That judgement can ONLY be made by a *judge* and anyone that states it is one or the other is merely stating their personal interpretation of the law and not legal facts.






Breed away. We used to produce enough rats and mice to have plenty for the snakes and enough surplus to sell to local pet shops. The money from this paid for the rodent food and bedding ultimately meaning that our snake food cost us nothing but our time.

:2thumb:


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## mitsi

Spideypidey said:


> In the case that the R.S.P.C.A. has reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed or under the terms of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 is likely to be committed in the near future, they could pass it to an Animal Welfare Officer or the Police and they do have right of access.
> 
> The Animal Welfare Act 2006 covers all animals and not just pets.


Animal welfare cannot enter your home unless you give them permission to do so, the police can as long as they feel a threat to life maybe happening or you invite them in,, other than that if they dont have a warrant you dont even have to let them in, 
please get your information correct before you post, read above post then stop trying to put people off what is a legal thing to do.


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## Ryanbrown89

bothrops said:


> There is absolutely nothing that you would or could get into trouble for.
> 
> 
> There is absolutely nothing AT ALL in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 that prevents you from breeding rats and using them to feed your pet reptiles.
> 
> In fact, it is even perfectly legal for you to raise animals at your own property and kill them yourself to eat yourself (provided you process them correctly and do not sell the meat or commercially benefit from it) including, but not limited to, chickens, sheep, pigs or even cattle.
> 
> Food Standards Agency - Home slaughter of livestock: A guide to the law in England and Wales
> 
> The idea that raising rats and mice for consumption by snakes in any way contravenes the law is preposterous.
> 
> The RSPCA even publishes guidelines on appropriate, recognised methods of humane culling.
> 
> http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232725801616&mode=prd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lecture in Animal Management for a living. I also bred rats and mice at home to feed my reptiles for years. I only stopped a year ago as I reduced my collection of reptiles and was spending more time looking after the rodents than the snakes!
> 
> Breeding your own means you can ensure they get the best possible care and the best possible food. They can be kept in much better conditions with more attention and less competition than any commercial outfit can attain.
> 
> Provided you humanely euthanase the animals before feeding their isn't even a grey area - it is 100% legal.
> 
> (I usually used CO2 for convenience and a personal consideration of it being the least 'risky' in terms of 'getting it wrong', but I would also use cervical dislocation)
> 
> 
> In reality, (though I do not condone or encourage it) it is not even strictly *illegal* to feed the animals that you breed to your snakes live should you choose to.
> 
> The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is NOT explicit when it comes to feeding live vertebrates to other vertebrates. The five animal welfare needs are ambiguous on this point (unnecessary suffering for mouse vs needs to express natural behaviour for snake). The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is, to date, untested in this scenario and nobody has ever been prosecuted under the act for feeding a live mouse or rat to a snake in a private setting. Until the Act is tested in a court of law and a legal precedent is set, it remains a grey area and it is neither explicitly legal nor illegal. That judgement can ONLY be made by a *judge* and anyone that states it is one or the other is merely stating their personal interpretation of the law and not legal facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breed away. We used to produce enough rats and mice to have plenty for the snakes and enough surplus to sell to local pet shops. The money from this paid for the rodent food and bedding ultimately meaning that our snake food cost us nothing but our time.
> 
> :2thumb:


Damn got there before I did lol:, rspca can't do :censor: all as rats don't come under a certain thing so there not protected like other animals, but I do believe wether they are being bred for feeders then they should still be well looked after until it's time to be euthanised


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## jonnyclayton

Cheers for the advice got a bit confusing I thought I wrote something wrong, I would never ever even consider live feed apart from the fact it could kill my snake in my opinion I physically couldn't watch a rat running from the snake bit wrong, I couldn't do it by snapping there neck think the noise would turn my belly, I could do the co2 but how would I build a chamber? Cheers appreciate the help so far


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## rickpellen

Some great posts here, IMO if you can't kill your own rodents you shouldn't be keeping snakes in the first place, its part and parcel of this hobby


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## jason7579

rickpellen said:


> Some great posts here, IMO if you can't kill your own rodents you shouldn't be keeping snakes in the first place, its part and parcel of this hobby


I have cats, should I be able to kill whatever goes into their food? Also I eat meat, should I be expected to be able to kill cows, sheep, pigs etc.

With the mass availability of frozen food for snakes your statement seems a bit harsh and completely unjust.


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## shamostu

*Breeding for feed*

Best way to cull is with co2 humane and fast the rats and mice just go to sleep and it won't cause any problems with the snakes


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## Addymk2

Raynor_NFFC said:


> I find the best way to cull is by C02.
> 
> Build a gas chamber, treat the rats well and your all good : victory:


Lessons from the 3rd Reich?

A CO2 chamber is perfectly humane, pain free and easy.


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## mitsi

rickpellen said:


> Some great posts here, IMO if you can't kill your own rodents you shouldn't be keeping snakes in the first place, its part and parcel of this hobby


not quite right at all, with the wide availability of frozen reptile food, there is no need to do so if you dont want to. Most who do usually have a larger collection of reps to feed or even bigger animals so it pays to do your own.


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## jarich

bothrops said:


> There is absolutely nothing that you would or could get into trouble for.
> 
> 
> There is absolutely nothing AT ALL in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 that prevents you from breeding rats and using them to feed your pet reptiles.
> 
> In fact, it is even perfectly legal for you to raise animals at your own property and kill them yourself to eat yourself (provided you process them correctly and do not sell the meat or commercially benefit from it) including, but not limited to, chickens, sheep, pigs or even cattle.
> 
> Food Standards Agency - Home slaughter of livestock: A guide to the law in England and Wales
> 
> The idea that raising rats and mice for consumption by snakes in any way contravenes the law is preposterous.
> 
> The RSPCA even publishes guidelines on appropriate, recognised methods of humane culling.
> 
> http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232725801616&mode=prd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lecture in Animal Management for a living. I also bred rats and mice at home to feed my reptiles for years. I only stopped a year ago as I reduced my collection of reptiles and was spending more time looking after the rodents than the snakes!
> 
> Breeding your own means you can ensure they get the best possible care and the best possible food. They can be kept in much better conditions with more attention and less competition than any commercial outfit can attain.
> 
> Provided you humanely euthanase the animals before feeding their isn't even a grey area - it is 100% legal.
> 
> (I usually used CO2 for convenience and a personal consideration of it being the least 'risky' in terms of 'getting it wrong', but I would also use cervical dislocation)
> 
> 
> In reality, (though I do not condone or encourage it) it is not even strictly *illegal* to feed the animals that you breed to your snakes live should you choose to.
> 
> The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is NOT explicit when it comes to feeding live vertebrates to other vertebrates. The five animal welfare needs are ambiguous on this point (unnecessary suffering for mouse vs needs to express natural behaviour for snake). The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is, to date, untested in this scenario and nobody has ever been prosecuted under the act for feeding a live mouse or rat to a snake in a private setting. Until the Act is tested in a court of law and a legal precedent is set, it remains a grey area and it is neither explicitly legal nor illegal. That judgement can ONLY be made by a *judge* and anyone that states it is one or the other is merely stating their personal interpretation of the law and not legal facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breed away. We used to produce enough rats and mice to have plenty for the snakes and enough surplus to sell to local pet shops. The money from this paid for the rodent food and bedding ultimately meaning that our snake food cost us nothing but our time.
> 
> :2thumb:


Thank you, a definitive answer and one which will hopefully keep him from spouting nonsense again.


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## bothrops

jason7579 said:


> I have cats, should I be able to kill whatever goes into their food? Also I eat meat, should I be expected to be able to kill cows, sheep, pigs etc.


Although I don't think that all snake keepers should be able to break rat necks, I do actually think that every single meat eater should be prepared to kill in order to eat.

I know it's not practical, but I think everyone who wants to eat meat should have to kill at least one of each species they which to consume before being allowed to buy and eat products from that species.

This idea of 'along as it has no bones' or 'only if you cut the head off' or 'I can only eat meat if I don't think about the fact that it was once alive' is, to me, completely disrespectful to the animal. I think Western society is far too removed from the reality of meat. Too many uber processed, shaped meat paste products in the supermarket and too many people growing up without appreciating and respecting the animals that have given their lives so you can eat have led to some of the issues of welfare we have today (more and more for less and less = high yeild, poor welfare meat production).


I'm a 100% dyed-in-the-wool carnivore. I have killed to eat (pheasant, rabbit, chicken etc) and would be prepared to have to kill pig, sheep and cow if I needed to in order to continue eating them. If, when it came to the crunch, I couldn't actually kill the cow, then IMO I have no right to continue to consume them and expect someone else to 'do the dirty work'.


(Off topic, but it is a subject I feel quite strongly about!)


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## bothrops

jarich said:


> Thank you, a definitive answer and one which will hopefully keep him from spouting nonsense again.


To be fair, I've just read through his answers on 'the mouse thread' and they pretty much say exactly the same as I did.


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## jason7579

bothrops said:


> Although I don't think that all snake keepers should be able to break rat necks, I do actually think that every single meat eater should be prepared to kill in order to eat.
> ...stuff...
> (Off topic, but it is a subject I feel quite strongly about!)


I totally agree, but my point was that it should not be a prerequisite to owning animals.

I would happily shoot to eat, I am firmly against killing animals for fun though. I think as long as whatever you shoot you should make full use of. With the exception of endangered species unless as a last resort. From a very young age I ensure that my children associate what they are eating with the animal it comes from. I'm also keen to take my boy out shooting rabbits, which will end up on our plate.


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## jason7579

jason7579 said:


> I totally agree, but my point was that it should not be a prerequisite to owning animals.


I've thought about this since my last post and have reconsidered my answer, but can't edit my post.
I don't think you need to be able to kill to eat meat but should be fully aware of the complete process that has enabled you to eat what is on your plate.


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## Iulia

bothrops said:


> Although I don't think that all snake keepers should be able to break rat necks, I do actually think that every single meat eater should be prepared to kill in order to eat.
> 
> I know it's not practical, but I think everyone who wants to eat meat should have to kill at least one of each species they which to consume before being allowed to buy and eat products from that species.
> 
> This idea of 'along as it has no bones' or 'only if you cut the head off' or 'I can only eat meat if I don't think about the fact that it was once alive' is, to me, completely disrespectful to the animal. I think Western society is far too removed from the reality of meat. Too many uber processed, shaped meat paste products in the supermarket and too many people growing up without appreciating and respecting the animals that have given their lives so you can eat have led to some of the issues of welfare we have today (more and more for less and less = high yeild, poor welfare meat production).
> 
> 
> I'm a 100% dyed-in-the-wool carnivore. I have killed to eat (pheasant, rabbit, chicken etc) and would be prepared to have to kill pig, sheep and cow if I needed to in order to continue eating them. If, when it came to the crunch, I couldn't actually kill the cow, then IMO I have no right to continue to consume them and expect someone else to 'do the dirty work'.
> 
> 
> (Off topic, but it is a subject I feel quite strongly about!)



Am with you completely! I have many friends in eastern europe, and visitors from UK have hysterics when they kill a chicken for sunday lunch, but no problem to buy from Asda ...??? :banghead:


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## mitsi

bothrops said:


> Although I don't think that all snake keepers should be able to break rat necks, I do actually think that every single meat eater should be prepared to kill in order to eat.
> 
> I know it's not practical, but I think everyone who wants to eat meat should have to kill at least one of each species they which to consume before being allowed to buy and eat products from that species.
> 
> This idea of 'along as it has no bones' or 'only if you cut the head off' or 'I can only eat meat if I don't think about the fact that it was once alive' is, to me, completely disrespectful to the animal. I think Western society is far too removed from the reality of meat. Too many uber processed, shaped meat paste products in the supermarket and too many people growing up without appreciating and respecting the animals that have given their lives so you can eat have led to some of the issues of welfare we have today (more and more for less and less = high yeild, poor welfare meat production).
> 
> 
> I'm a 100% dyed-in-the-wool carnivore. I have killed to eat (pheasant, rabbit, chicken etc) and would be prepared to have to kill pig, sheep and cow if I needed to in order to continue eating them. If, when it came to the crunch, I couldn't actually kill the cow, then IMO I have no right to continue to consume them and expect someone else to 'do the dirty work'.
> 
> 
> (Off topic, but it is a subject I feel quite strongly about!)


Have to agree totally, I grew up with my parents breeding their own rabbits for meat, my dad would cull and me and my mum would skin and gut, Ive als o done pheasantsand chickens, and it wouldn't bother me one bit having to do any other animal I eat either, .


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## jarich

bothrops said:


> To be fair, I've just read through his answers on 'the mouse thread' and they pretty much say exactly the same as I did.


Seriously?! He said pretty much the same stuff he said in this thread that I remember, but I'll go back and have a look. Perhaps I'm being unfair based on past discussions.


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## Spideypidey

mitsi said:


> Animal welfare cannot enter your home unless you give them permission to do so, the police can as long as they feel a threat to life maybe happening or you invite them in,, other than that if they dont have a warrant you dont even have to let them in,
> please get your information correct before you post, read above post then stop trying to put people off what is a legal thing to do.


We cannot place a blanket definition on Police powers of entry because it depends on the circumstances. For example, if the RSPCA or really anyone else pass information to them and they decide to arrest you then they have the power of entry. To say outright that the Police cannot enter your home is not true.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/law_e/law_legal_system_e/law_police_e/police_powers.htm

But if the R.S.P.C.A. or an Animal Welfare Office or a Police Office ask to see your animals and you refuse I'm pretty sure they would think that you have something to hide and wil pursue the matter further. If you have nothing to hide and you are innocent of all wrong-doing then why not let them in?

On the 2006 Act it's deliberately ambiguous. It gives those responsible for animal welfare the power to decide whether an animal is suffering and not only that it gives them preventative powers to decide whether an animal is *at risk* of suffering.


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## mitsi

You have the right not to let anyone in your home without your permission, and upon reading about yhecpolice powers I quoted what it said, ie unless serious threat to life you dont hsve to, obviously with an arrest warrant or search warrant thats different, if the rspca knew about reps then I would have no problem with them coming in to view my reps, as it stands they dont, and people only come into my house if I invite them in. This is besides the point however, alot of what you stated was nonsence as been proved by earlier posts.


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## Spideypidey

But the fact remains that if what you're doing is correct and you're following the five welfare needs then you have nothing to fear in letting them in to have a look. Personally, they can come into my home any time they want and they do: I don't know if you're acquainted with animal welfare charities and animal rescue charities, but when an animal is bought from them they often deliver personally and check over the housing and care. Many of them also pay a surprise second visit to double-check.

As my last in this thread, I've already said that I do not necessarily disagree with breeding vertebrates to use as live or dead food. But when keepers do that they should be aware of their duty of care and also aware of the possible legal and even criminal consequences of failing in that!


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## Dragon Farm

bothrops said:


> Although I don't think that all snake keepers should be able to break rat necks, I do actually think that every single meat eater should be prepared to kill in order to eat.
> 
> I know it's not practical, but I think everyone who wants to eat meat should have to kill at least one of each species they which to consume before being allowed to buy and eat products from that species.
> 
> This idea of 'along as it has no bones' or 'only if you cut the head off' or 'I can only eat meat if I don't think about the fact that it was once alive' is, to me, completely disrespectful to the animal. I think Western society is far too removed from the reality of meat. Too many uber processed, shaped meat paste products in the supermarket and too many people growing up without appreciating and respecting the animals that have given their lives so you can eat have led to some of the issues of welfare we have today (more and more for less and less = high yeild, poor welfare meat production).
> 
> 
> I'm a 100% dyed-in-the-wool carnivore. I have killed to eat (pheasant, rabbit, chicken etc) and would be prepared to have to kill pig, sheep and cow if I needed to in order to continue eating them. If, when it came to the crunch, I couldn't actually kill the cow, then IMO I have no right to continue to consume them and expect someone else to 'do the dirty work'.
> 
> 
> 
> (Off topic, but it is a subject I feel quite strongly about!)


I believe that there would be alot more vegetarians in the world if people had to take part in the killing process in order to get meat. It is clear that people are getting more and more removed from the animals they eat. 


Not only should they have to take part in the process of death, but they also should see the reality of how the 'food' produced. 

You only have to look at images of farms in childrens books to see how we are misled from a very early age !


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## mitsi

Spideypidey said:


> But the fact remains that if what you're doing is correct and you're following the five welfare needs then you have nothing to fear in letting them in to have a look. Personally, they can come into my home any time they want and they do: I don't know if you're acquainted with animal welfare charities and animal rescue charities, but when an animal is bought from them they often deliver personally and check over the housing and care. Many of them also pay a surprise second visit to double-check.
> 
> As my last in this thread, I've already said that I do not necessarily disagree with breeding vertebrates to use as live or dead food. But when keepers do that they should be aware of their duty of care and also aware of the possible legal and even criminal consequences of failing in that!


you seem to be missing the point I made, ive had animals from the animal welfare societies incl the rspca, so I know how they work, and its all well and good with the furries, but reptiles are a completely different matter altogether, when they cant even tell the diference between a normal snake and a potentially deadly one, then they dont have a clue what the rep is they are looking at, never mind their care requirements, then no I wouldnt let them in unless they could prove to me they know what they are talking about, luckily ive never had any visits for anythjng other than when ive rehomed animals, but I know a few on here have, for malicious reports from ex, s etc. Believe it or not most people who breed their own mice and rats for rep food probably take better care of them than those who keep them as pets, as we all only want the very best food for them.


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## Mollie100

One of the reasons I stayed away from the 'reptile world' so long is that I have kept Fancy Rats and Mice as much beloved pets for years. 

Rats especially are incredibly intelligent animals with wonderful personalities. Mice, too, are sweet little animals (but quite smelly!)

However I and many other people in the 'Rat Fancy' have the utmost respect for people that choose to breed their own (although it would be nice to think those tiny tubs aren't exclusively used) because the rodent farms that generally provide the source for frozen food are pretty much just 'battery farms' for rodents.

Mouse breeders (all my mice were rescues so not used any myself) very often cull their litters anyway as male mice rarely get on so they cull unwanted males. Males stink too, lol. So why someone questions the legality of it all I do not understand.

If you raise your own rodents you are surely only making sure that your reptiles are getting the best food. Which just makes sense, tbh. I can't imagine rodent farms feeding anything like a decent diet - and we all know 'you are what you eat'.

I plan to breed my own locusts and dubia when I get a Leopard Gecko (already started a mealworm farm!) for the same reason - I want to know that my rep' is getting a good quality diet.

Personally - I mostly eat Quorn lol. But one of my dogs is raw fed - because no matter how hard I found it to cut up chicken carcasses and chop liver and kidney etc - it's best for him and that's what matters most. : victory:


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## Mollie100

Oh and it's worth bearing in mind that there are few legalities when it comes to killing animals - anyone can (and people regularly do, sadly) take a perfectly healthy animal to the vet and have it pts. 

The animal welfare act asks that animals are kept well fed, watered, given some chance to exhibit natural behavious and are given treatment when ill. Which am sure all reptile keepers that keep rodents do. As long as rodents are killed as humanely as possible I cannot see where the act is being contravened. 

As a very long-term keeper of small furries with tons of rescues amongst them I am well familiar with it all.


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## Dragon Farm

Mollie100 said:


> Oh and it's worth bearing in mind that there are few legalities when it comes to killing animals - anyone can (and people regularly do, sadly) take a perfectly healthy animal to the vet and have it pts.
> 
> The animal welfare act asks that animals are kept well fed, watered, given some chance to exhibit natural behavious and are given treatment when ill. Which am sure all reptile keepers that keep rodents do. As long as rodents are killed as humanely as possible I cannot see where the act is being contravened.
> 
> As a very long-term keeper of small furries with tons of rescues amongst them I am well familiar with it all.


I am sorry to say that many who keep rodents as feeders do not give them the quality of life they deserve before death. Many see them as just a means to an end for their triple het butterscotch,snow bee, toffee apple or whatever Royal pythons that they hope to make £££'s out of. 

The majority of the rest of the keepers buy in intensively farmed rodents with no concern for how they are raised. What the animal welfare act doesn't cover is food whether it be for us or our animals that is raised in other countries. The truth is that even in the Uk, I don't believe any of the 'higher welfare breeders' are anything to be proud of. Virtually nobody is prepared to pay the extra money that would be required to give the quality of life the feeder rodents deserve.

I find it all quite depressing to be honest. 

I hope the APA and other animal welfare groups take advantage of this quite soon, and expose the truth to the general public, because virtually nobody in the reptile world seems to care.

It will happen. It is better we address this problem before the 'antis' do it for us. 

I think it is something that groups such as the FBH should be dealing with, before the truth is exposed. Right now I would be happier to give a donation to the APA than the FBH. I don't believe we have a right to keep our reptiles without some responsibilities.


----------



## mitsi

Dragon Farm said:


> I am sorry to say that many who keep rodents as feeders do not give them the quality of life they deserve before death. Many see them as just a means to an end for their triple het butterscotch,snow bee, toffee apple or whatever Royal pythons that they hope to make £££'s out of.
> 
> The majority of the rest of the keepers buy in intensively farmed rodents with no concern for how they are raised. What the animal welfare act doesn't cover is food whether it be for us or our animals that is raised in other countries. The truth is that even in the Uk, I don't believe any of the 'higher welfare breeders' are anything to be proud of. Virtually nobody is prepared to pay the extra money that would be required to give the quality of life the feeder rodents deserve.
> 
> I find it all quite depressing to be honest.
> 
> I hope the APA and other animal welfare groups take advantage of this quite soon, and expose the truth to the general public, because virtually nobody in the reptile world seems to care.
> 
> It will happen. It is better we address this problem before the 'antis' do it for us.
> 
> I think it is something that groups such as the FBH should be dealing with, before the truth is exposed. Right now I would be happier to give a donation to the APA than the FBH. I don't believe we have a right to keep our reptiles without some responsibilities.


I know quite alot of rep owners that breed their own mice and rats, and they are fed and cared for very well, more so than some of the pet rats ive seen. We have a responsibility of care to all our animals and with the exception of some unscrupulous breeders and keepers I would say that reptile care is moving forward, you are always going to get the bad keepers, just as you do with any other animal, the rest of our jobs is to inform people as much as possible and hopefully weed these people out. The majority of reptile keepers take their responsibilities very seriously, the apa are extremists to say the least, who alot of the time do little more than scaremongering amongst the public in general, to support these would just end reptile keeping on the whole and end up with a whole load of healthy well looked after animals being pts. Then what, they will start on dogs, cats etc etc. What a great organisation to support, lets get rid off all pets all together.


----------



## studley

*reptle keeping*



Dragon Farm said:


> I think it is something that groups such as the FBH should be dealing with, before the truth is exposed. Right now I would be happier to give a donation to the APA than the FBH. I don't believe we have a right to keep our reptiles without some responsibilities.


Donate to the apa, thats funny dude, nothing you do yourself is in any way justifiable to them, those reps should be in the wild you know! 
Remember they don't believe we have a right to keep reptiles at all, no exceptions.
They'd probably take your donation and use it towards shutting your business down, like they did with murray and hughes back in the day. If memory serves i think they finally admitted defeat when their families started getting threatened.


----------



## Dragon Farm

mitsi said:


> I know quite alot of rep owners that breed their own mice and rats, and they are fed and cared for very well, more so than some of the pet rats ive seen. We have a responsibility of care to all our animals and with the exception of some unscrupulous breeders and keepers I would say that reptile care is moving forward, you are always going to get the bad keepers, just as you do with any other animal, the rest of our jobs is to inform people as much as possible and hopefully weed these people out. The majority of reptile keepers take their responsibilities very seriously, the apa are extremists to say the least, who alot of the time do little more than scaremongering amongst the public in general, to support these would just end reptile keeping on the whole and end up with a whole load of healthy well looked after animals being pts. Then what, they will start on dogs, cats etc etc. What a great organisation to support, lets get rid off all pets all together.


I don't disbelieve for a second what you say about your friends and the way they keep their rodents. But having worked in a reptile shop for many, many years, I can't really remember anybody showing any concerns about how the redents they were buying were raised. Most snake keepers don't care. I have seen examples of people in the hobby who have told me they have used pliers to remove teeth in rats to reduce the likelyhood of the snake getting a nasty bite, or others who put small mice in the freezer to kill them, and others who just care for the rodents badly, and keep them in containers that are poor for the welfare of the rats and mice. 

My point was that the worst practices of the hobby, especially the trade, give the APA and similar groups plenty to work on. It would be much better if we self regulate before governments pushed by public pressure do it for us. 

I don't know why you believe the APA would start putting to sleep healthy animals ?


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## Dragon Farm

studley said:


> Donate to the apa, thats funny dude, nothing you do yourself is in any way justifiable to them, those reps should be in the wild you know!
> Remember they don't believe we have a right to keep reptiles at all, no exceptions.
> They'd probably take your donation and use it towards shutting your business down, like they did with murray and hughes back in the day. If memory serves i think they finally admitted defeat when their families started getting threatened.


I agree they would want to close me down, and stop reptile keeping your right.

But i think we have a choice. Either we do nothing and eventually reptile keeping becomes heavily regulated at best, and a large chunk of the general public start to think of us in a very negative light. Either that or we self regulate, to keep the public, and therefore politicians on our side. 

The idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want is a very dangerous road to go down. 

Let me give you an example. There was a big problem with the importation of large slider type terrapins. The ones that freqently got dumped in park ponds, and grew as big as your dinner plate. But the big importers in the reptile trade with encouragement from Chris Newman stopped importing them (unfortunately the aquatic trade still imports them). This is the sort of thing we should be doing more of. I admit the APA comments were meant to wind you up, but there is an element of truth in what I said. Either we adapt, and take more responsibility for what we do, or we die. 

Wouldn't it be great for example if rather than importing rodents from eastern europe, we supported a UK commercial operation with higher welfare standards ? But unfortunately it would never work because snake keepers on the whole are not prepared to pay more for them. 

I would support those who bred their own rodents at home, especially where the rodents are given a good quality of life.


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## mitsi

Dragon Farm said:


> I don't disbelieve for a second what you say about your friends and the way they keep their rodents. But having worked in a reptile shop for many, many years, I can't really remember anybody showing any concerns about how the redents they were buying were raised. Most snake keepers don't care. I have seen examples of people in the hobby who have told me they have used pliers to remove teeth in rats to reduce the likelyhood of the snake getting a nasty bite, or others who put small mice in the freezer to kill them, and others who just care for the rodents badly, and keep them in containers that are poor for the welfare of the rats and mice.
> 
> My point was that the worst practices of the hobby, especially the trade, give the APA and similar groups plenty to work on. It would be much better if we self regulate before governments pushed by public pressure do it for us.
> 
> I don't know why you believe the APA would start putting to sleep healthy animals ?


the apa once they got their own way and rep keeping was banned , what do you think would happen to all the reps people have that would be taken off them, they would all end up bring euthanized, it would be illegal to own them, zoos wouldnt take them, they couldnt be exported and released into natural environment s, thry would all be pts like other banned animals.

the apa threatened once to blow up a place just to get a show stopped, if they are prepared to do this sort of thing, especially in these days where terroism is always in the press, do you really think they would be bothered about our reps being destroyed as long as they got the ban pushed through.


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## Dragon Farm

What you say is pure speculation. The animal rights 'extremists' have a history of resucing animals from laboratories, and housing them until the end of their natural lives.

The APA does definately like to scaremonger, but I think this is an example from the other side


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## mitsi

Dragon Farm said:


> What you say is pure speculation. The animal rights 'extremists' have a history of resucing animals from laboratories, and housing them until the end of their natural lives.
> 
> The APA does definately like to scaremonger, but I think this is an example from the other side


But if it was illegal to own/keep them, there is only one way it would go. Our reps would be destroyed, unless you can tell me how we could all keep the illegally owned reps if the apa get their way.


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## Dragon Farm

What happened when 'dangerous dogs' were banned ? were they all put to sleep ?


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## mitsi

Well you only have to look at the pitbulls to answer that and they dont even have to be actual pitbulls just pitbull types, and they are pts. You dont think they kept them and others somewhere safe until they died of old age did you, no they were all pts.


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## Dragon Farm

Re pitbulls. My understanding of the legisilation was that they could not be bred from, but as long as they were registered with the authorities, chipped, and muzzled in public, they were not PTS. I thought it was only 'illegal ones' that were not registered, that were PTS. 

The problem now is that there is debate about whether x dog is a pitbull type or not. There is a big difference here, in that nobody can confuse a leopard gecko for a pitbull, or with a pet rabbit. 

Also of course these pitbulls and similar types were deemed potentially extremely dangerous. Hence the extreme measures taken. Nobody is worried about being savaged by a Bearded dragon. 

Do you really think it is likely that reptile pets will become illegal in the UK, and they will all be PTS ? 

If so, isn't it odd that this is a horrifying prospect, but when I suggest the food we feed to our reptiles have a decent life _before death_, I am labelled as a friend of the 'extremists'


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## mitsi

Im not saying it will become illegal to keep reps in the uk, but if you donate to the apa, who want to make it illegal to own them then you are supporting the chances that it may happen., no one is ssying you are friend of theirs, it was just your comment that you would rather give your money to the apa then the fbh. One who is against rep keeping full stop, and who we all know will go to extreme measures to make what they want happen. Personally I think the fbh are doing a good job in difficult circumstances and if we are going to be able to keep doing what we do, we need them to help us. 
There were 300 pitbull type dogs pts in the uk alone last year and another 3000 in la.are tgey any more dangerous then any other dog out there, depends on how they are brought up and treated, a friend of my hubbys has one and even though you can keep them if you are lucky enough to convince a court they are safe etc etc, which he managed to do, he gets lots of hassle off council oficials, dog wardens etc who are always checking up on him etc. His pitbull is the gentlest, playful dog ive ever seen, its as good as gold with him his mrs and their kids.
a beardie can give a nasty bite, a burm/retic could kill you. No one will care if the law ever gets passed if its a gecko or an anaconda, just like whether its a pitbull or not.
I think your experiences of people buying frozen rats may be typical of people whether its food for oyr reps or us, do you ask when you buy a chicken or some pork, how the animals were kept beforehand, I bet you dont.
likewise as I said before there are people out there who dont look after their animals very well, but there are lots more who do, why we and the fbh keep trying yo get the messages across and educate people in general then hopefully we can weed out those few.


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## Dragon Farm

I don't/have never donated to the APA. But sometimes when I see certain things in the reptile trade I can sympathise with some of their views. 

I would agree that Chris Newman has done some good work. But I am not happy supporting a group that at its core has a bunch of friends who were self selected, and don't care a jot what i think about the world of reptile keeping, because I can't vote them off the main committee 

Nor do I want to support REPTA, the reptile trade organisation that does not allow most traders to get involved or join them !! Isn't that very odd, a reptile trade organisation that reptile traders can't join ! You couldn't make it up !

The 'dangerous dogs' were allowed to live when the legislation came in. Talking about whether x dog is safe or not, is not really anything to do with this discussion. I like dogs alot, so I understand why somebody would be upset if a dog that appreared safe got put to sleep. But if people stopped breeding dogs that looked like pitbulls, or were part pitbull the problem would go away. 

Yes you are 100% right, when I go shopping I never ask about the welfare conditions of the lamb or chicken behind the counter. But then since I stopped eating these things when I was 12 years old (33 years ago) it isn't very relevant.


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## Rogue665

I'm thinking about doing this for about a year or more just to stock my freezer, then sell or whack the adults on the head and feed them to my boa or keep the sex's seperated till i run out again.
I love animals though and i am strugglying with the concept of the gassing or whacking part......i can't even get rid of the wild rats down my allotments..they were there first at the end of the day.


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## mitsi

Rogue665 said:


> I'm thinking about doing this for about a year or more just to stock my freezer, then sell or whack the adults on the head and feed them to my boa or keep the sex's seperated till i run out again.
> I love animals though and i am strugglying with the concept of the gassing or whacking part......i can't even get rid of the wild rats down my allotments..they were there first at the end of the day.


Its a good idea, I havent had to buy any rats for my snakes or monitors for about 6 months now,, my rats get fed chicken, veg, fish, other meats, as well as rat food etc etc, they eat and breed very well. All our scraps go them to as well as any left over dog and cat food, .


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## Ryanbrown89

mitsi said:


> Well you only have to look at the pitbulls to answer that and they dont even have to be actual pitbulls just pitbull types, and they are pts. You dont think they kept them and others somewhere safe until they died of old age did you, no they were all pts.


When the ban came in they wasn't put to sleep the owners had to sign a legislation agreeing that there dogs will not be bred from and when taken for a walk they had to be on a lead and muzzled at all times, and then they eventually die and obviously that owner would never have a pit again


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## mitsi

Ryanbrown89 said:


> When the ban came in they wasn't put to sleep the owners had to sign a legislation agreeing that there dogs will not be bred from and when taken for a walk they had to be on a lead and muzzled at all times, and then they eventually die and obviously that owner would never have a pit again


I know this, my point was if an animal gets put on the banned list, alot will end up being pts, its not that simple to get these licenses and you have also have to prove they are not vicious/dangerous to get the courts to approve the license to keep them, how you would be able to prove that to a court about a retic or a burm or any large snake or monitor, especially with the apa's views on things as well, I dont know, tthis is all speculation at the end of the day though, as this ban is nowhere in site at present, this was only started as was mentioned theyd rather give money to the apa than the fbh, was just trying to get a point across that the apa will get rep keeping banned and most of the reps would end up getting pts.


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## studley

*responsible keeping*



Dragon Farm said:


> I agree they would want to close me down, and stop reptile keeping your right.
> 
> But i think we have a choice. Either we do nothing and eventually reptile keeping becomes heavily regulated at best, and a large chunk of the general public start to think of us in a very negative light. Either that or we self regulate, to keep the public, and therefore politicians on our side.
> 
> The idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want is a very dangerous road to go down.
> 
> Let me give you an example. There was a big problem with the importation of large slider type terrapins. The ones that freqently got dumped in park ponds, and grew as big as your dinner plate. But the big importers in the reptile trade with encouragement from Chris Newman stopped importing them (unfortunately the aquatic trade still imports them). This is the sort of thing we should be doing more of. I admit the APA comments were meant to wind you up, but there is an element of truth in what I said. Either we adapt, and take more responsibility for what we do, or we die.
> 
> Wouldn't it be great for example if rather than importing rodents from eastern europe, we supported a UK commercial operation with higher welfare standards ? But unfortunately it would never work because snake keepers on the whole are not prepared to pay more for them.
> 
> I would support those who bred their own rodents at home, especially where the rodents are given a good quality of life.


Ah, I see the point you're trying to make now.
However although I think that you're right and some guidelines on ethical rodent breeding wouldn't be a bad idea, the problem is that the more responsible keepers are most likely doing it right anyway, whereas the people that you most need to reach will never listen and are most unlikely to be members of any reptile keeping organisation anyway (they're just not intelligent enough to want to read articles or learn scientific names etc, plus membership costs money).
I liken it a bit to dog fouling signs, they are a complete waste of time/money, responsible owners pick it up whether there's a sign or not, irresponsible ones leave it where it lands, even if a sign's there telling them to pick it up.
Another idea along similar lines, would be for them to publish some guidelines to potential breeders to make them think twice before breeding species for which there's little demand for. 
At the minute this is bearded dragons. 
I'm worried these are becoming the goldfish of the reptile world, i.e very cheap to buy (seen them for a fiver) but expensive to house, heat, light, and feed etc, a dangerous combination for potential welfare issues.
The situation's so bad now that members trying to sell baby beardies on the lizard classifieds are getting hijacked by people saying that prospective buyers should look to rehoming centres and not to breed them as they're just making the situation worse!


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## Spideypidey

studley said:


> Ah, I see the point you're trying to make now.
> However although I think that you're right and some guidelines on ethical rodent breeding wouldn't be a bad idea


The breeding of rodents for live or dead food would be no different to for example the breeding of rodents for pets and there are a host of guidelines for that. There are also guidelines and legislation regarding the euthanasia of rodents but in a lab environment and i'm not at all sure whether that would be applied to the killing of rodents to feed a pet reptile or snake:
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232725801616&mode=prd


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## Chris Newman

Dragon Farm said:


> I am sorry to say that many who keep rodents as feeders do not give them the quality of life they deserve before death. Many see them as just a means to an end for their triple het butterscotch,snow bee, toffee apple or whatever Royal pythons that they hope to make £££'s out of.
> 
> The majority of the rest of the keepers buy in intensively farmed rodents with no concern for how they are raised. What the animal welfare act doesn't cover is food whether it be for us or our animals that is raised in other countries. The truth is that even in the Uk, I don't believe any of the 'higher welfare breeders' are anything to be proud of. Virtually nobody is prepared to pay the extra money that would be required to give the quality of life the feeder rodents deserve.
> 
> I find it all quite depressing to be honest.
> 
> I hope the APA and other animal welfare groups take advantage of this quite soon, and expose the truth to the general public, because virtually nobody in the reptile world seems to care.
> 
> It will happen. It is better we address this problem before the 'antis' do it for us.
> 
> I think it is something that groups such as the FBH should be dealing with, before the truth is exposed. Right now I would be happier to give a donation to the APA than the FBH. I don't believe we have a right to keep our reptiles without some responsibilities.


I think you are a little confused the APA is not an Animal Welfare organisation; they have zero interest in animal welfare. They are 100% Animal Rights organisation that is 100% opposed to what you do in terms of keeping reptiles, breeding and selling them, but I am sure they would welcome your support. 

Anyone who keeps a reptile, or indeed any vertebrate animal, has a legal duty of care (responsibility) that is enshrined under the Animal Welfare Act.


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## Dragon Farm

Hi Chris

No I am not confused. I fully understand the difference between animal rights and animal welfare. They are very different. 

I am fully aware the APA would see me as the enemy. 

The animal welfare act of course applies in the Uk, but I am talking about the importation of animals raised without the 'protection' of the animal welfare act. The protective law only applies to animals raised here, not those raised abroad for the Uk market (for example mice and rats). 

The problem with such legislation is that because of free market rules, the Uk cannot ban the import of animals alive or dead that are not raised to higher UK welfare standards. What I have been suggesting is that the British Reptile trade could voluntarily choose to buy from sources with higher welfare standards. It might in the medium to long term, help protect the Reptile hobby/trade, and at the same time be a good thing to do for its own sake.


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## Chris Newman

It is quite important that keepers/traders understand where organisations (business) like the APA stand, there agenda is not promoting welfare it is purely to stop the keeping, breeding of reptiles (and other animals) in captivity, thus it unhelpful when those involved in such promote such organisations.

The Animal Welfare Act as domestic legislation does only apply to the UK but all other EU Members States have their own domestic legislation, admittedly some is more robust than others, nonetheless some form of animal welfare standards are in place across the EU.


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## Dragon Farm

I am going to say what has been said before a few times already by others. Frankly I would probably not be aware of the APA if it were not for the FBH. Frankly you and the other active committee members of the FBH do alot to 'promote' the APA more than anybody else in the reptile world. I mean that the FBH team are always putting up links to various sites that promote the activities of the APA. 

Whether this is a good thing or not is questionable. Certainly it is possible that the APA is not as powerful as we might think. I get the impression that at the heart of this group is a very small group of individuals. 

My understanding was that the Animal welfare act was not based on some European legislation, like the EU CITIES legislation for example. Am I wrong in thinking that ?


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## Chris Newman

Weather you were aware of the APA and its kin or not is an interesting but irrelevant point, the fact is the Animal Rights Industry (of which the APA is a tiny part) is immensely powerful and influential not just in the UK, but across the EU and indeed globally. At the end of the day money talks, certainly in terms of politics, and the Animal Rights lobby is awash with cash. For example organisations which represent the pet industry in the UK combined have an annually income shy of £1 million in the UK, by contrast just the top ten (out of over 300) organisations that support Animals Rights in the UK have an income of over £350 million. You are quite right that the APA are themselves inconsequential, what is more relevant is organisations like the Born Free Foundation and the Eurogroup for Animals which exploit the APA and its associates for political gain. The Animal Welfare Act is in terms of European legislation irrelevant, its relevance is to the UK and broadly it mergers over 100 pieces of domestic legislation into one.


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## Cbmwilletts

I would say that providing you look after the rats ( clean water, decent food, toys, and clean them out when needed) they would probably have a better life than the already frozen rats you buy at the pet shop. Also you can provide better nutrients for your snake to consume


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## Spideypidey

Cbmwilletts said:


> I would say that providing you look after the rats ( clean water, decent food, toys, and clean them out when needed) they would probably have a better life than the already frozen rats you buy at the pet shop. Also you can provide better nutrients for your snake to consume


That in itself should be a matter of concern for reptile and snake keepers. I've seen with my own eyes several times breeding rodents kept in relatively tiny containers with little air circulation and without any means to exercise. Basically, food is thrown in the bottom of the cage and water is put in a bowl which is quickly fouled. Those keepers which I hope are in the extreme minority are feeding to their reptiles and snakes rodents which are essentially sick and diseased!


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## MissFoxHawk

Every bit of meat we have in our shops has been killed by someone. You either kill it or eat it (both! ) but just because you don't want to kill a rat for the well being of your snake, then buy frozen. 
In the long run, breeding is more time consuming but a lot cheaper. You're only buying the food and bedding. so that's about £5 a month against the £15 it would be for frozen -> Going off frozen reptiles prices. delivery is ridiculous. But i think it's up to the persons on what they do. It's their money, and their time. They can spend their own money and time as they wish


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## steve williams

In answer to your original question. Take a look here.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/295798-making-co2-chamber.html
: victory:


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## Dragon Farm

Chris Newman said:


> Weather you were aware of the APA and its kin or not is an interesting but irrelevant point, the fact is the Animal Rights Industry (of which the APA is a tiny part) is immensely powerful and influential not just in the UK, but across the EU and indeed globally. At the end of the day money talks, certainly in terms of politics, and the Animal Rights lobby is awash with cash. For example organisations which represent the pet industry in the UK combined have an annually income shy of £1 million in the UK, by contrast just the top ten (out of over 300) organisations that support Animals Rights in the UK have an income of over £350 million. You are quite right that the APA are themselves inconsequential, what is more relevant is organisations like the Born Free Foundation and the Eurogroup for Animals which exploit the APA and its associates for political gain. The Animal Welfare Act is in terms of European legislation irrelevant, its relevance is to the UK and broadly it mergers over 100 pieces of domestic legislation into one.


I don't have any reason to dispute the figures you quote. With those details in mind, would it make more sense to wait for the antis to show the general public what commercial rodent rearing is like, or would it make more sense for the reptile trade to improve the welfare of rodents now ?

If you read back on previous messages (before you were involved in this thread), you will see how I suggested the way you encouraged the big players in the trade to stop importing slider terrapins as a very positive thing. I think this issue has similarities in that its not only the right thing to do, but also good for the future image of the reptile trade.


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## Chris Newman

Dragon Farm said:


> I don't have any reason to dispute the figures you quote. With those details in mind, would it make more sense to wait for the antis to show the general public what commercial rodent rearing is like, or would it make more sense for the reptile trade to improve the welfare of rodents now ?
> 
> If you read back on previous messages (before you were involved in this thread), you will see how I suggested the way you encouraged the big players in the trade to stop importing slider terrapins as a very positive thing. I think this issue has similarities in that its not only the right thing to do, but also good for the future image of the reptile trade.


Few if any rodents are bred commercially in the UK they are imported from they are third countries therefore it would be very difficult to see how any kind of certifications scheme could work. I am also not convinced it would be financially viable, I am circumspect enough keepers would be prepared to pay a premium and ultimately those opposed to the keeping of reptiles would simply dismiss such as scheme just as they do with similar farmed schemes such a Freedom Foods. Ultimately I am unaware of any welfare problems associated with the commercial breeding of mice or other rodents in Europe?


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## Cbmwilletts

This might put everyone off seeing the mice/rats alive before killing them, you could turn into this............ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uh4aPuwFqQ


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## antony1986

Look how chickens are kept and we eat them and there eggs battery chickens I'm talking about so I cannot imagine how rats are kept and in what conditions.

I breed my own rats and they are cleaned every week and clean water and food daily I also give them fresh veg and and occations give them meat and eggs after they have had young. 

The price I pay for feed and bedding is probably like 10pound per month where as I was paying that per week when buying from a pet shop 

I also have a few snakes that won't eat anything but live and was worring me so much it was the only option I had. The first day I fed my snake that had not ate for 3 months frozen it ate yepeeee. 

The rats are kept in a home made rack that I built myslef and I brought extra large tubs so they have loads of space. 

I give them toys and have started to hold the young to get them more socialble and they are great now 

I have also started breeding diffrent colours
All white 
All brown 
Pied 
And a few others 

I. In the process of breeding surplus which means that when I sell 1.3 ratio for 10pound this will pay for there bedding and food for a month

So in conclusion.....my rats are happy....my snakes are happy....I am happy that I now have no finacial burden and know where my snakes food comes from.

Only froblem I have is I'm worried that someone tells the police or rspca that I keep rats for food and they are taken off me as well as my snakes and then I'm fined and banned from keeping pets 

Although anyone that came to look at them could not possibly say they are misstreated until they are fed off which as far as am aware is nature and people don't have a problem with killing millions of fish,pigs,chickens and cows off every year to support the outrageous growth of the human race that is killing this planet earth off like a plague.....rant over


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## mitsi

Antony I wouldnt worry , as long as they are well looked after prior to being culled you wont be prosecuted for anything, even the rspca website tells the best most humane ways to cull them, and tgen of course you dont have to let them in anyway if they ever do come knocking..


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## Cbmwilletts

I love the quote 'my rats are happy' until they are buldgeoned to death  I am considering to start breeding my own mice and your setup sound great and exactly what I would


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## antony1986

That's my next question I have a a mixed bag will explain


Level 1. 1.3
Level 2. 1.4
Level 3. 1.5 
Level 4 mom and 5 babies....dad had to go he killed 4 little b*@d 
Level 5. Male feeders 
Level 6 free 
Level 7 free 

Now I have 6 snakes round about 300- 700 grams 
How maany will I need in total as I'm not sure with numbers


I know within the next 6weeks I will have on average. 90-150 babies 

Will fill all levels eventualy with a 
1.3
1,4
1.5 
Ratio 

Males and females will go in seprate feeder large gigepig tank with fesh top or a 64ltr tub I seen someone make on youtube 

Just wondering how much will I need to keep a even ratio and not over breed 


Will have 8 snakes soon 
Butter male 
Albino male 
Fire male 
Mojove female 
Albino female 
Pastel orange ghost female 

And soon to get
Fire female 
Kingsping female


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## Dragon Farm

Chris Newman said:


> Few if any rodents are bred commercially in the UK they are imported from they are third countries therefore it would be very difficult to see how any kind of certifications scheme could work. I am also not convinced it would be financially viable, I am circumspect enough keepers would be prepared to pay a premium and ultimately those opposed to the keeping of reptiles would simply dismiss such as scheme just as they do with similar farmed schemes such a Freedom Foods. Ultimately I am unaware of any welfare problems associated with the commercial breeding of mice or other rodents in Europe?


Earlier on in my posts I suggested the possibility that the reptile trade could support UK bred rodents, bred under a higher welfare standards. The FBH/REPTA could encourage the trade to support such enterprises.(EDIT, I mean support enterprises that truly have better standards, not just support any UK enterprise. It could be a non UK business, the trade has the power to support any higher welfare company it doesn't have to be in the UK). 

Yes it would mean UK keepers having to pay more, and I guess the truth is that most keepers would prefer to have the money to buy a new Apple product, than pay more for rodents. But the trade has the opertunity if they work together (like they did with slider terrapins) to make dramatic improvements to the welfare of the feeder rodents we use. I guess ultimately this is a test of whether reptile keepers care what sort of life they rodents have, or not. I guess probably not. I guess the FBH/Repta isn't that bothered either. 

I think we both have seen the sort of cages that are used commercially to raise rodents, and the most important thing in such enterprises is to breed as many rodents as possible at the minimum cost. Welfare will not be considered. The companies that bred rodents are for some reason not that keen to show many photos of their cages.


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