# Training and conditioning DWA reptiles



## Snake_bite (Apr 10, 2010)

This subject has come up in a few of the other discussions I have taken part in since joining the forum and I think it is quite interesting.

I keep a few venomous reptiles along with a whole host of other exotics including mammals and birds. of course training the later species is quite common place but after watching this video on youtube a few years ago it got me thinking. YouTube - Can your fish play soccer?

If a goldfish can be trained well then just about any other animal can be trained including snakes! The only problem with snakes is it will take a lot longer because you cannot continuously reinforce the behavior as they eat one big meal a week and would not accept a mouse chopped up as treats! but I think it is possible.

I have a 16' Burmese python who was a very fussy eater when she was small so I had to force feed her, anyway she grew out of that but even to this day if I grab her behind the head she instantly goes into "Feed Mode" and will feverishly go for any prey item anything that comes in front of her lips (if snakes have lips lol) obviously she has been conditioned to eat when this external stimuli is present, so I believe this really is possible. This is not an aggressive behavior as if she is not hungry and I attempt this she throws a coil over my hand and pushes me off then retreats to the other side of her enclosure, so aggression can be ruled out

As I continued my research I came across these videos of target trained animals

YouTube - reptileranger.com

YouTube - ReptileBehavior.Com

YouTube - ReptileBehavior.Com

there are loads more videos on Reptile Training and Behavior Home

Anyway my ideas are fairly simple. attaching a small shift cage to your main reptile tank and then training the snake to respond to a stimulus such as a light being switched on indicating that food is now available in the box or shift cage. this cage could be detachable if an animal needed removing or veterinary care (the cage could be adapted to have anesthetic gas pumped in)

Anyways it is an interesting area that a lot more work needs to be done in. I am going to do some experimentation with my cobras as I think they are the most reactive to my presence so ideal candidates. I would be interested to hear others views on this.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Good luck


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## WhiteRabbit (Apr 6, 2010)

Well i thought tap training was fairly common, have been doing it with my burms and boas for years, is this the kind of thing you mean?


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## Snake_bite (Apr 10, 2010)

WhiteRabbit said:


> Well i thought tap training was fairly common, have been doing it with my burms and boas for years, is this the kind of thing you mean?


What do you mean by tap training? is this when you tap the snake to let it know its not going to be fed? This is conditioning but used in a different way. I have a retic that used to be very aggressive and I knew it would cause problems when he got bigger. He wasnt so much aggressive as highly food orientated. when the door opened he associated this with being fed and would come at me with his mouth open. I started to use a sprayer, and just give him a little spray when the door opened. he then associated the door opening with retracting rather than coming forward. this worked well and I now have a very manageable grown reticulated python.


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## WhiteRabbit (Apr 6, 2010)

Yes just using the hook to give him a slight tap along there body, not that i have any aggressive/defensive snakes i just like to keep this up as it's working well to date. might have nothing to do with it but iv done it for this long and not had any accidental bites (they've all been meant, bloody mrs kingsnakes, buggers just don't like me) and none at feeding time. Also just tap the bigger snakes not bothering with kings and rat snakes!


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

have you thought about getting a dog?:lol2:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

I have a Cobra who has been trained to climb up my arm and sit on my head, looks real cute!

I may get one of those Green mambas and train it!


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

slippery42 said:


> I may get one of those Green mambas and train it!


you can come down and train Angus if you like:whistling2: Bet he trains you to say ":censor:" first tho'


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> you can come down and train Angus if you like:whistling2: Bet he trains you to say ":censor:" first tho'


I think that the OP has an apt name if he tries to train hots!


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## Snake_bite (Apr 10, 2010)

slippery42 said:


> I think that the OP has an apt name if he tries to train hots!


I think if you read my post properly you will understand that it is protective training. It is very simple conditioning to make a snake move from one place to another without even having to open the glass. Despite some people making a joke out of it, my intention is not to have a cobra sitting on my head :lol2::lol2: quite the opposite in fact. It is something I am taking very seriously. I think it could be used in zoos very effectively. If the head venomous keeper was away another keeper could come in and manage the snakes very safely despite lack of experience.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

well my take on it is if it was possible to condition or train them it would have been done allready. i think if you are worried about being bitten with the fairly safe techniques we use allready then you shouldnt be keeping them. i have just had a spiting cobra that has a retained eye cap given to me, sometimes you just got to get up close and personal if you cant you shouldnt have them


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

Snake_bite said:


> I think if you read my post properly you will understand that it is protective training. It is very simple conditioning to make a snake move from one place to another without even having to open the glass. Despite some people making a joke out of it, my intention is not to have a cobra sitting on my head :lol2::lol2: quite the opposite in fact. It is something I am taking very seriously. I think it could be used in zoos very effectively. If the head venomous keeper was away another keeper could come in and manage the snakes very safely despite lack of experience.


Yes some reptiles can be taught things....i use taught instead of trained...such as monitor lizards...but when you train something your putting trust into it...such as a guide/hearing dog....you put all your trust into this animal to do whats right.

I wouldnt trust a snake with my life at all....and thats excalty what your doing with DWA animals....when working with animals theres only 2 things you can trust....your judgement and your experince...

i tried the tap training years ago...worked like a treat for a good few years until out of no wear the burm turned on me and ripped my arm to shreads....

each to there own but i doubt many keepers would do this as when you become too trusting is when accidents happen....unforgiving ones: victory:


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## Snake_bite (Apr 10, 2010)

leecb0 said:


> well my take on it is if it was possible to condition or train them it would have been done allready. i think if you are worried about being bitten with the fairly safe techniques we use allready then you shouldnt be keeping them. i have just had a spiting cobra that has a retained eye cap given to me, sometimes you just got to get up close and personal if you cant you shouldnt have them


With over twenty years experience handling venomous species in captivity and in the field I can assure you I am quite able to handle them. I have never once been bitten either. In the old days we free handled them all, Steve Irwin style! lol

Re: your comments about if it could be done it would have been done already. did you not watch the videos? it has been done already and I work with several zoos that are adopting a similar practice. Im just developing it further. And there are many things that can be done with snakes that have not been achieved yet, captive breeding of certain species etc doesnt mean we shouldnt try because if its not been done already because "it cant be done!"

I think some of you are misunderstanding my ideas. The point is that you dont have to handle the animals at all they are always behind glass so you are not trusting the snake rather trusting the glass. I am not talking about taming or anything else I am simply opening a slide and indicating that there will be a reward at the other side if it passes through to the next cage. It means the animals are not handled and stressed and further reduces the risk of being bitten.

Fair enough if an animal needs veterinary treatment it must be restrained but I am talking about daily management. 

im rather surprised at the reaction to this post, I thought forward thinking modern reptile keepers would be keen to see the hobby furthered in a safe and positive way. I firmly believe without stress factors of being handled certain species could be encouraged to breed much better and that is a plus, especially with endangered species. plus if safe methods like this were further developed more zoos may consider taking on venomous reptiles which means more breeding programs and an increase of already dwindling numbers of rare species.


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## WhiteRabbit (Apr 6, 2010)

wildlifewarrior said:


> i tried the tap training years ago...worked like a treat for a good few years until out of no wear the burm turned on me and ripped my arm to shreads....


Its working well so far for me, no feeding time bites, But a few years ago i was helping a friend with his retic. I've been in contact with big snakes through my father so was more than used to them and had a pair of burms (11ft and 13ft) which i fed using the tap method. so i offered to help move a viv defensive retic into its new viv i was 20 and very cocky and an 18ft snake was run of the mill, so as i opened the viv in his room while he was in the new reptile room i gave it a gentle tap on the side so it knew i was there and boom, struck on my leg dislocated my then crappy knee (got a new one from the nhs for my visits every month or so to get it put in since i was 16) wrapped my leg and just pulled me as far in the viv as it could, any way, long story short, leg mangled and friend apologizing and i knew it was my fault for being too cocky and sure of myself to think that Stewarts retic would be the same as my burms, or dads pythons. a stupid stupid mistake that wont happen twice! :blush: 

was a hell of a dumb thing to do... so i am cautious around them especially at feeding times! : victory:


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## afalbusa (Aug 30, 2009)

mmmmmmmm:hmm:


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Firstly WILDLIFEWORRIOR has it bang on, if you are "training or conditioning" an animal you are to some degree putting your trust in it which i believe is wrong. I have seen a female burm who was the proverbial soft as a bottle of pop nail itc keeper all 14 foot coiled him with no reason or warning, this was at A zoo and he was lucky. the simple fact is the methods i and many venomous snake keepers use on a daily basis are almost as safe as it gets these safe practices are one of the reasons that very few bites occure each year and the protocols we enforce upon ourself are why noone has died in over a hundred years. so is there a problem that needs fixing, you sugest we are not modern thinking well i disagree i am always open to new ideas but i think your idea if im honest is bonkers, we are not talking about trainingchimps or dolphins, these are deadly creatures with highly evolved instincts, it is very hard to train something to go against its instinct.
Also just out of curiosity you say you keep venomous, and you have 20 years experience in handling them and you work with zoos etc, so some of us must actually know you? why not show us some photos of your animals and the way you keep them and perhaps we can get a better grasp of what you are talking about.


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## Snake_bite (Apr 10, 2010)

leecb0 said:


> Firstly WILDLIFEWORRIOR has it bang on, if you are "training or conditioning" an animal you are to some degree putting your trust in it which i believe is wrong.


Sorry how am I trusting the snake? it is just a simple method of moving a snake from one shift cage to another. I am just using a signal to show the snake its time to move! there is absolutely no trust involved. I dont even have to open the tank! Not for one second did I suggest anything remotely wrong with the way you and myself handle the venomous. I was just putting forward an idea that I believe has a lot of potential. 

I live in Ireland so I doubt if I know many on here, perhaps we have spoke at Hamm? or other European shows?

I will post some pictures of my animals and set up.......


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Snake_bite said:


> If the head venomous keeper was away another keeper could come in and manage the snakes very safely despite lack of experience.


Now that IS an interesting thought!

So do you really think that ANY institution etc would allow someone with a lack of experience to work in close proximity to a venomous species?

Health & Safety! Risk of being sued!

Need I say more?


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

Snake_bite said:


> Sorry how am I trusting the snake? it is just a simple method of moving a snake from one shift cage to another. I am just using a signal to show the snake its time to move! there is absolutely no trust involved. I dont even have to open the tank! Not for one second did I suggest anything remotely wrong with the way you and myself handle the venomous. I was just putting forward an idea that I believe has a lot of potential.
> 
> I live in Ireland so I doubt if I know many on here, perhaps we have spoke at Hamm? or other European shows?
> 
> I will post some pictures of my animals and set up.......


and what happens when you ditch your old ways of hooking the snake out and use these non "hands on" methods and the snake decides not to play ball that day? then what...do you keep trying and trying while in the process stressing the snake out...or do you delay everyhting and try tomorrow....OR do you have to resort back to the old hands on approach...which if you havent been doing in a while then your not going to be as quick or as sharp as you once were ...after all practice makes perfection(or as close as)


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I think part of people's confusion or strong reactions are because what you're talking about seems to be very basic operant conditioning in a non-contact situation, the wording of the topic using "training" just conjures entirely the wrong images and the wrong impression for anyone reading it.

Modification of voluntary behaviours is easily done, changing a snakes feeding response to involve entering a box is very basic and could work very well on some snakes (others simply won't play ball). Snakes which are intelligent enough to be "trained" won't continue going into a box on cue for long when they discover food isn't always there...
The traditional use of rewards doesn't work on snakes since you can hardly throw tidbits their way daily or more in order to reinforce the behaviour you're looking for!

So far you haven't expressed any forms of "training" you are interested in other than enabling venomous snakes to be sent into a trap box without opening the viv? 
Routine with snakes is a powerful tool in itself, I was lucky enough to visit a friend at his facility recently and saw a few instances of animals retreating to their traps with no other persuasion than they knew that was where they're supposed to go at servicing time. 
I've run basic conditioning and training with iguanas, monitors and caimen, but I would never consider it as a serious viable tool when working with DWA snakes.




Snake_bite said:


> If the head venomous keeper was away another keeper could come in and manage the snakes very safely despite lack of experience.


Unfortunately this statement sums up why other people are wondering if you are for real  (sorry!)

You suggest a situation where the trust is placed in the consistency of the snakes training and ability to behave, rather than trust in knowledgeable and experienced keepers.

If someone is not truly experienced and intuitive enough to be trusted working with venomous snakes, how can they be experienced and intuitive enough to initiate behavioural cues, operant conditioning and read the body language and reactions of the animal in question?

If there is no one competent to deal with venomous animals on site, then the enclosures simply stay locked, anything else is a recipe for disaster.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> and what happens when you ditch your old ways of hooking the snake out and use these non "hands on" methods and the snake decides not to play ball that day? then what...do you keep trying and trying while in the process stressing the snake out...or do you delay everyhting and try tomorrow....OR do you have to resort back to the old hands on approach...which if you havent been doing in a while then your not going to be as quick or as sharp as you once were ...after all practice makes perfection(or as close as)


exactly what i was thinking and going to say:notworthy: are you reading my mind (wont take you long):whistling2:

What the op is suggesting is simply a way of getting a snake to go into a trapbox in my experience they end up staying in the trap box and using it as a hide and rarely come out, how do you get the snake to come out of the box you entice it into? when you have done the things you need to do in the cage, if it doesnt come out then you will have to go in there and pull it out (happy snake in a confind space being pulled out of somewhere its comfortable) do i need to say more. I really cant see it working to be a success it will have to work for all snakes in a collection not just one or two and it would have to work every time. and anyone who has experience in keeping snakes especially venomous would realise this CANT be done, and for this i am begining to wonder if this and you are for real


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## Snake_bite (Apr 10, 2010)

slippery42 said:


> Now that IS an interesting thought!
> 
> So do you really think that ANY institution etc would allow someone with a lack of experience to work in close proximity to a venomous species?
> 
> ...


Obviously not! likewise many dont allow experienced keepers to bring in DWA because of the risks while handling. I know of several institutions with one senior experienced keeper and several juniors or apprentices. When the senior is off the snakes are locked and no one can handle or move them. 


You know what it doesnt matter just ignore my first post!

i wasnt trying to change any of your methods or your opinions. Just thought it made for interesting topic of conversation. 

But I will say something zoos have moved to protective contact with many species (Elephants being a major one, but also small animals). I am starting to see shift doors in reptile exhibits (Cotswolds being a good example) so I am not crazy or off my head. I am just interested in all aspects of animal care and husbandry. this is a developing area of venomous husbandry.


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## pmpimbura (Jan 12, 2007)

Interesting post! 
Snakebite i completely agree with you, why expose yourself to a venomous snake during routine procedures when a safer approach can be adopted. 

but this does have its draw backs, you can maintain 'hots' using a hands off approach for years but a situation will arise where your going to have to go in with your charge.......... but still there are safer remote procedures that can be applied.

Currently it isnt an accepted practise to work 'hands on' with venomous snakes in zoological institutions and alternate practises are adhered to with great sucess.

Training and conditioning is possible and the benefits of it have only been discovered in recent years with lower vertebrate species. 

cheers


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

Snakes cannot be trained but some can be conditioned because these animals live by instinct alone. Some species have good general temperaments while others species are dodgy at best.
I’ve dealt with specimens which can be either one or the other depending on the day. 
These animals are unpredictable and don’t always react to what the script dictates. Free handling any venomous snake is just stupidity in action.


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## Snake_bite (Apr 10, 2010)

Saedcantas said:


> I think part of people's confusion or strong reactions are because what you're talking about seems to be very basic operant conditioning in a non-contact situation, the wording of the topic using "training" just conjures entirely the wrong images and the wrong impression for anyone reading it.
> 
> Modification of voluntary behaviours is easily done, changing a snakes feeding response to involve entering a box is very basic and could work very well on some snakes (others simply won't play ball). Snakes which are intelligent enough to be "trained" won't continue going into a box on cue for long when they discover food isn't always there...
> The traditional use of rewards doesn't work on snakes since you can hardly throw tidbits their way daily or more in order to reinforce the behaviour you're looking for!
> ...





pmpimbura said:


> Interesting post!
> Snakebite i completely agree with you, why expose yourself to a venomous snake during routine procedures when a safer approach can be adopted.
> 
> but this does have its draw backs, you can maintain 'hots' using a hands off approach for years but a situation will arise where your going to have to go in with your charge.......... but still there are safer remote procedures that can be applied.
> ...


Thanks guys, i am glad some of you can take an objective view on this. I was not saying lets all go hands off, perhaps I have not completely explained myself properly!


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## Hopeinthedark (Aug 16, 2008)

I believe London Zoo have trained some of their DWA to go into a box when the door into their tanks are opened, which can then be closed to enable the tank to be cleaned safely. I've heard of it being done by spraying them with water, which the snake will move away from and they learn that the unpleasantness stops when they go in the box. If you think about how monitors and other lizards can be target trained, its possible to train pretty much any animal, you just need to take into consideration behaviours its possible for them to learn, and how you're going to motivate them to do it. And then its a lot of time and persistance as with training any animal.


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

Hopeinthedark said:


> I believe London Zoo have trained some of their DWA to go into a box when the door into their tanks are opened, ....


Most species of cobra automatically head directly for the safe hid box if disturbed. My forest cobra and cape cobra do that instinctively if I open there habitat enclose. No 'training' needed


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## rob challis (Mar 23, 2010)

The reptile people at London Zoo do this.

For example, the pair of adult Kimodo Dragons are managed in this way as are the Rhinocerous Monitors and some othet larger lizards.

Two young Crocs are being trained as well.

It is very successful in terms of keeper safety, improved husbandry etc.

I am experimenting with some of my younger snakes to see if small vibrations will catalyse a particular behaviour.

Some corrolation with tapping the hide as a precurser to a feed will make the snake come out but just one snake on two occasions so far-more work required.

Kind regards,

Rob


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## rob challis (Mar 23, 2010)

That is, I understand, the approved protocol for major Western Zoos.

Generally a qualified hots keeper is on site and if not one is on call.

Generally no one else would have the keys to the hot vivs which are generally double locked.

No hot would be handled unless two people were present-one of them qualified.

regards,

Rob


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