# F1, F3, what does it mean?



## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

As above, im guessing that its the amount of generations bred in captivity from the original WC stock?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> As above, im guessing that its the amount of generations bred in captivity from the original WC stock?


For hobby purposes yup you are pretty much spot on,but as I understand it any time you make a pairing then the kids of those could be called FI,the F refers to filial. You will see F1 on seed packets where two particular parent plants have been used to create F1's these often show hybrid vigour and other desirable traits.
Naturally the WC their kids F1 their kids F2 is fairly straight forward and under stood. the problems arise when someone crosses(obviously within the same morph:2thumb an F1 to a F3. they should be F1's again,but often people call these BC1(back cross)
The reality here is with so little in the way of records you will be hard to find frogs known to be F3/4 etc so you won't need to worry about all this that much. Other than seeing an ad for frogs with an F1 tag,meaning the guy whom bred then is breeding some WC(wild caught).

does that make sense

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

So is f2 the kids' kids? (inbreeding) or is it kids from two seperate f1s? 

Sorry to hijack.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

F1 - first generation from 2 unrelated parents.
F2 - from 2 related F1s.

Nobody will say F3, as at that point your just into the whatever stage. lol Most CB frogs in the hobby are further down the breeding line that F2s.

For the most part, hobbyists when they say F1 really mean that they are bred from wild caught, and lets be honest wild caught is the only way we can be closer to knowing they are really unrelated. Some folks though apply F1 using the biological definition above. The problem is though, you could buy a male cauchero from me, and a female from Mike, thinking to yourself all is good and you have an unrelated pair. It wouldn't be true though, as my adult caucheros were bred by Mike, so at best you'd be producing F2s (pretty sure Mike checked and found his adults are unrelated. lol). 

Can of worms, I declare thee open. lol Trust me, it's about to get warm in here..

Ade


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## mattbeighton (Aug 25, 2012)

I was wondering about this as well, so thanks for clearing it up!

Seeing as I will be looking to get 6 toads soon, I've been pondering the toss up between WC and CB. I don't really like taking out of the wild for pet purposes so WC sits uneasily with me, but CB concerns me with inbreeding. If I take 6 young from one source, which seems easiest, I run the risk of inbreeding. How do I know that they aren't the result of one breeder doing the same thing with related, and so on. I could be creating the 5th generation of inbreeding? Is this an issue, or should I just pick 3 from one breeder and 3 from another?

As I'm getting them all at once, at BAKS, I'd prefer not to have to quarantine if possible.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Right, this is my opinion. If you can get CB GET CB, every time. Personally I would rather risk inbreeding than the plethora of risks you take with WC (diseases, parasites, potential harm to the environment etc).

Ade


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## mattbeighton (Aug 25, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Right, this is my opinion. If you can get CB GET CB, every time. Personally I would rather risk inbreeding than the plethora of risks you take with WC (diseases, parasites, potential harm to the environment etc).
> 
> Ade


That was my thinking, just wondered how big a concern inbreeding was. I could always freshen the pool after a year or two by swapping out I suppose


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

mattbeighton said:


> That was my thinking, just wondered how big a concern inbreeding was. I could always freshen the pool after a year or two by swapping out I suppose


I'm afraid that the answer to that question is going to depend upon who you ask. Anybody keeping tinctorius lorenzo the answer is going to be that it's a HUGE issue, as they've become harder and harder to breed thanks to inbreeding. Where most other species it's yet to become a big problem.

Ade


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> the problems arise when someone crosses(obviously within the same morph:2thumb an F1 to a F3. they should be F1's again,but often people call these BC1(back cross)


Only if they are unrelated. If we are talking grandparent and grandchild, In that case the offspring would be BC1 (as I'm sure you know). Just to be pedantic!!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> Only if they are unrelated. If we are talking grandparent and grandchild, In that case the offspring would be BC1 (as I'm sure you know). Just to be pedantic!!


 you are always pedantic Nick:Na_Na_Na_Na:, but I always welcome it because it always makes my posts clearer to others,hell I was actually waiting for you to intervene and translate:mf_dribble:



best

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I now have the simplest answer to this.

If you are buying frogs, ask the seller/breeder what they mean by F1, F2 etc, that way you know. 

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

The issue becomes blurry when buying F1 from a shop as some say an F1 is from WC parents and some say F1 from unrelated parents. There is a heated thread on dendro board arguing about the true definition of F1 and as far as I remember the outcome was a 50/50 split.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

fatlad69 said:


> The issue becomes blurry when buying F1 from a shop as some say an F1 is from WC parents and some say F1 from unrelated parents. They is a heat thread on dendro board arguing about the true definition of F1 and as far as I remember the outcome was a 50/50 split.


Yeah, that's why I reckon that the best bet is to outright ask. : victory: If they wont give you a straight answer, do you want to buy from them anyway? 

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Yeah, that's why I reckon that the best bet is to outright ask. : victory: If they wont give you a straight answer, do you want to buy from them anyway?
> 
> Ade


Amen to that,:2thumb:

Stu


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