# C-19



## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

I was just wondering what peoples protocols are if they become ill?

Mine is too euthanise by freezing.

Any thoughts, either from venomous keepers or not.

Also curious what a zoo's view is with their dangerous animals?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

GT2540 said:


> I was just wondering what peoples protocols are if they become ill?
> 
> Mine is too euthanise by freezing.


Killing yourself by jumping in a freezer !!! :gasp::gasp: :whistling2:

[I'll get my coat  ]


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

GT2540 said:


> I was just wondering what peoples protocols are if they become ill?
> 
> Mine is too euthanise by freezing.
> 
> ...


Euthanasia by freezing is considered a cruel and painful death, I'm not sure why you would do that? The vast majority of patients who get C19 are ill for about 7 days then recover.
If you needed hospital treatment again you are more likely than not to recover.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

I'll be serious now... promise.

Generalising here as it's not species specific, but we all know that most snakes can go for long periods without food, and most don't drink excessively, so dehydration shouldn't be an issue. From my limited research, it would seem that most people who are admitted to hospital with this virus are released after the 10-14 days, unless they have underlying health issues that compound recovery. Most of those affected appear to have mild cold symptoms that last for 5-7 days and then recover without the need for testing.

To be considering euthanizing animals is a bit extreme. Personally I feel that part of any plan when keeping reptiles, be that hots or non-venomous is that you have a back up person who can take over the husbandry (food and water really) in the event something should happen to you, even out of the blue. This is more so important if you live on your own and have no family members who can be trained how to safely change the water, or safely top up the water dish if the issue is short term. If long term, then have someone you can call on whilst you are in hospital (fellow forum member for example).


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## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

Okay, let me put it this way and I'm open to suggestions

If I become ill and are facing the possibility of death. I have the virus and it would not be moral in my opinion to expose another individual to it. So having someone come over is not really possible. And they will probably be in the same boat as me regardless. 

My wife is not capable or willing, and probably will also be ill. 

I understand how long snakes can go for without food. 

Changing the water is usually as easy as any other snake, but not always. I have lost count of the amount of times I've had a snake exit its cage whilst doing this. 

So what do you do to mitigate the risk to the third parties?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

I don't think you have understood the virus at all.

Most people will get mild symptoms. Normally a cough, a slight fever with a slight temperature, and a washed out feeling. You might get one or more of these symptoms, which tend to be no more than what you experience with a normal cold. It won't confine you to bed, and it won't prevent you from looking after your animals. You will naturally need to self isolate (as we are at the movement), and chances are others in your household will also show similar signs. I've had a cough and slight fever, the cough came and went within a six day period, the temperature lasted no more than 24 hours. My daughter had a temperature and felt knackered for two days, and the wife also had a slight fever... two weeks on we're fine. Was this C-19 ? - no idea as none of us were at the level where we needed testing.

Now if you already have underlying health issues (mostly it seems to be related to breathing and conditions that bring down your immune system) and your symptoms get a lot worse and you experience difficulties in breathing (irrespective of any underlying condition or not) then you contact NHS via the phone line. They will advise where to go and get tested and assessed. If you are confirmed to have C-19 they will asses the level of infection as whether you need a hospital bed or not.

If you are admitted, most cases are placed on oxygen, and only if really critical would be placed on a ventilator. As Ian has said, most cases will be released from hospital to continue recovery in isolation at home.

Most (not all) of those who have died have been elderly and typically already have underlying health issues. There have been exceptions and you would expect that, but these exceptions are, at the moment, quite rare.

To be honest, whilst it is serious, it's not something that should cause us to start planning how to dispose of the animals we keep. 

About three years ago through posting on a forum I started exchanging e-mails with a chap who was helping me with some arduino coding. We would exchange between three and ten emails every day... then one day they stopped... I've not received one since and had no replies to subsequent mails I've sent. He also was an avid poster on that forum and all posts stopped on the same day the mails stopped.... The consensus is that he either died or was killed. In this sort of circumstances there is no planning for what may happen to your animals. As I said above, if you live alone and have no family then ensure that someone you know also knows that you have the animals you have. Or simply make a will and have details of any arrangements you have made for the re homing or selling of the animals, and ensure your executor is trained how to look after the animals in the mean time whilst the arrangements are made.


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## rogersspider2007 (Apr 2, 2007)

I know this is a tough situation through the crisis that we are experiencing, if I knew I was going to die from this virus or for any other problems then I would obviously have put in to place some kind of plan, my collection is in a secure building outside so I wouldn't have a problem in having someone who I made plans with to come and collect, as I would of gave them all the access codes and I would of posted keys to them, I know some people wouldn't be comfortable doing this but I wouldn't do this to just anyone, I do know quite a few people personally so I wouldn't think twice, it would be the same if I had the animals in the house.


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## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm not looking at the best case or probable case, but the worst case.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

GT2540 said:


> I'm not looking at the best case or probable case, but the worst case.


So make a will then :2thumb:


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## snaketats (Oct 27, 2008)

Just send them all to me and put my contact details down. Safe collection done by dwa holder.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

ian14 said:


> Euthanasia by freezing is considered a cruel and painful death, I'm not sure why you would do that? *The vast majority of patients who get C19 are ill for about 7 days then recover.*
> If you needed hospital treatment again you are more likely than not to recover.


Hmmmm, no, not quite, Ian. That is overstated. The recovery time is on average, about 2 weeks and for moderate to severe cases, 3+ weeks. Sometimes longer.

I had it in early April. I had reduced lung function for 2 and a half weeks, total, and lost taste and smell for over 3 weeks.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

As for your animals, honestly, I wouldn't panic.

And certainly don't freeze them!


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

*I am not a venomous keeper* 

It is never nice to think about what might happen should the worst happen and most of us like to think we will have some warning, unfortunately this is not always the case. 

I would seriously consider nominating someone (with their agreement of course) with venomous experience to step in and 'dispose' of your animals correctly regardless of the cause of your demise?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> *I am not a venomous keeper*
> 
> It is never nice to think about what might happen should the worst happen and most of us like to think we will have some warning, unfortunately this is not always the case.
> 
> *I would seriously consider nominating someone (with their agreement of course) with venomous experience to step in and 'dispose' of your animals correctly regardless of the cause of your demise?*


That should be in place before even acquiring animals, IMHO.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I agree but given the question being asked, I would suggest it isn't. 

I am not going to get drawn into the licensing argument as your stance on it (not being fit for purpose) is well known James, but I would like to see this being part of the application process (if it isn't already, which I don't think it is): in the event that you are unable to, who will care for and dispose of if necessary, your animals. 




ViperLover said:


> That should be in place before even acquiring animals, IMHO.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I agree but given the question being asked, I would suggest it isn't.
> 
> I am not going to get drawn into the licensing argument as your stance on it (not being fit for purpose) is well known James, but I would like to see this being part of the application process (if it isn't already, which I don't think it is): in the event that you are unable to, who will care for and dispose of if necessary, your animals.


It is and it isn't - it entirely depends on whether the Local Authority requires it, as per their own policy.

IMHO, I think it being enshrined in law is unworkable - who gets to decide who is current and competent to take on another's animals?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Another license holder? Maybe not enshrined in law but certainly common sense in my opinion.

But like I said, I don't know enough about it to make an educated statement or to be drawn on my opinion - I just think it would be best all round not least for the animals themselves.



ViperLover said:


> It is and it isn't - it entirely depends on whether the Local Authority requires it, as per their own policy.
> 
> IMHO, I think it being enshrined in law is unworkable - who gets to decide who is current and competent to take on another's animals?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> *Another license holder?* Maybe not enshrined in law but certainly common sense in my opinion.
> 
> But like I said, I don't know enough about it to make an educated statement or to be drawn on my opinion - I just think it would be best all round not least for the animals themselves.


Another licence holder would be fine, IF the licence assessed suitability to keep and handle - it doesn't.

The legislation is for public safety, it doesn't extend to the safety of the keeper, therefore suitability to handle isn't a mandated requirement.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I am aware of the purpose of the legislation James. 

I can't imagine in a situation where a DWA holder needs animals removed - another DWA holder must first go into the property to establish which species are being kept and then cross reference them against his or her license as to whether they are 'allowed' to handle them? Surely there must be people at a local pet shops (selling DWA animals of course), local zoo or god forbid, the RSPCA who have an all encompassing license? 

Lets try and be constructive rather than obstructive. 



ViperLover said:


> Another licence holder would be fine, IF the licence assessed suitability to keep and handle - it doesn't.
> 
> The legislation is for public safety, it doesn't extend to the safety of the keeper, therefore suitability to handle isn't a mandated requirement.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I am aware of the purpose of the legislation James.
> 
> I can't imagine in a situation where a DWA holder needs animals removed - another DWA holder must first go into the property to establish which species are being kept and then cross reference them against his or her license as to whether they are 'allowed' to handle them? Surely there must be people at a local pet shops (selling DWA animals of course), local zoo or god forbid, the RSPCA who have an all encompassing license?
> 
> Lets try and be constructive rather than obstructive.


In order for this to be remotely achievable, the entire Act needs to be repealed and replaced with something that is fit for that purpose.

It's well intended and poorly executed. I'm not being obstructive, I'm offering a point of view based on the evidence.

When DWA reptiles are seized, 9/10 it's a certain herpetologist at a well known scientific establishment in Liverpool, who is called upon to do that job.


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## snaketats (Oct 27, 2008)

James jump down from your high horse your a rat snake keeper and never owned dwa or had a licence behave yourself boy. You do nothing more than read and attend venom day. Your a fan boy. The question was legitimate and you are nothing but an over opinionated wannabe. Yes you seem to have a degree of education from your readings but for actual keeping and live dealing on a day to day basis you no nothing.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

So there you go, you have just nominated Paul to be 'that' guy - problem solved.




ViperLover said:


> In order for this to be remotely achievable, the entire Act needs to be repealed and replaced with something that is fit for that purpose.
> 
> It's well intended and poorly executed. I'm not being obstructive, I'm offering a point of view based on the evidence.
> 
> When DWA reptiles are seized, 9/10 it's a certain herpetologist at a well known scientific establishment in Liverpool, who is called upon to do that job.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

snaketats said:


> James jump down from your high horse your a rat snake keeper and never owned dwa or had a licence behave yourself boy. You do nothing more than read and attend venom day. Your a fan boy. The question was legitimate and you are nothing but an over opinionated wannabe. Yes you seem to have a degree of education from your readings but for actual keeping and live dealing on a day to day basis you no nothing.


Who the hell are you calling "boy?"

I guarantee you that you wouldn't be talking to me like that in a face to face conversation, so it's best to not do it over the internet, right?

I am on no 'high horse,' it's my opinion and I have enough experience to back that up.

Okay, you own a caiman and a couple of p155 easy to work with hot snakes (yes I have worked with both of them), that doesn't mean your opinion is more valid than somebody else who has seen how it is, whether they have a licence or not. 

Work on your grammar before you talk to me, and in the meantime, kindly Foxtrot Oscar.


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## snaketats (Oct 27, 2008)

Yes I would face to face BOY and 7 years of owning dwa not just caiman but various elapids thanks not that I actually need to defend my ownership of dwa to a non and never have been owner. But the opinion of someone that professes to be a herpetologist? Where’s the papers you have written to support that claim. The opinion in dwa section really does have a better standing if you are a licence holder so yes my opinion is more valid than yours because if someone were to fall fatally ill I would have a better right if asked to assist in removing and rehousing ANY dwa deemed suitable with housing at my property with The LA approval and potentially additional vet inspections if required. Enjoy James keep to rat snakes and taking pictures of planes. Enjoy your books but please leave the actual keeping and advice of the dwa section to actual keepers not some jumped up book worm who thinks he’s the next mark O’Shea


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

James, I'm not taking any sides in this "discussion" but do remember some of the conversations around the time you joined the forum....

Seeing that this thread has somehow got round to the topic of DWA animals, can you please simply clarify what DWA registred animals you have kept yourself in your own collections? 

I'm not questioning your knowledge gained from reading books and papers, but just curious as to what personal experience you have. On a public forum we all voice our opinions, but more often than not those opinions are based on our own personal experiences so we have some justification to stand by what we have stated. I have over 30 years experience in keeping and breeding North American rat snakes and Royals. I've kept boa's, but even though I appreciate the beauty of some vipers, never wanted to venture into keeping hots. So having never kept them would not comment (other then the obvious such as the need for heat) on any specific aspects of keeping anything in this sector.

My only experience of some of the red tape involved in keeping DWA species is based on personally seeing and hearing first hand what a fellow society member had to do in order to be granted a licence to keep 6 rattlesnakes. I can only relay this information based on what I saw and was told, but that doesn't mean its gospel and is applicable to everyone who goes through the same process.

@snaketats - you mentioned Mark O'Shea. I met him on more than one occasion. He is a really nice guy and a very respected herpetologist..never took any real chances, unlike Steve Erwin !


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## snaketats (Oct 27, 2008)

I’ve met Mark a handful of times and have a few of his books which I reference on some of the species I keep along with looking into some others. I’ve had mixed experiences in meeting him but no doubt a well respected herpetologist in the field and in his extensive studies. I recall meeting him at Portsmouth reptile show many years ago where he was selling study papers along with a book at the time. So by no means my comment regarding mark to be taken as a disrespectful one. His continued work remains valuable to us all as enthusiasts and keepers.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Malc said:


> James, I'm not taking any sides in this "discussion" but do remember some of the conversations around the time you joined the forum....
> 
> Seeing that this thread has somehow got round to the topic of DWA animals, can you please simply clarify what DWA registred animals you have kept yourself in your own collections?
> 
> ...



I don't keep anything, but I have experience with them - that's more than enough for this discussion.

I don't know who Snaketats is but he's not worth my time. All I simply said is that a contingency plan should be in place for that doomsday situation, where a keeper becomes incapacitated, before animals are purchased.

It shouldn't have taken a pandemic to make that obvious. If that wasn't obvious, then there's a liability issue there that needs addressing. If keepers police themselves, the government won't feel compelled to do it for them.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> I don't keep anything, but I have experience with them - that's more than enough for this discussion.


Beg to differ.. I have experience with helicopters, don't mean I can fly one...

Would you care to elaborate on the experience.... and by all means go into detail if you feel it will help support your arguments.

But in my book, unless you have kept something yourself, long term, experienced what they do on a daily basis, witness the odd quirky incident, then you can't really contradict those who have experienced those thing.

Yes we all read stuff on the internet or in books, but at least state this in your posts and where possible if its a scientific topic, link to the paper or publication...

Like I said I'm not taking sides in the argument... just making an observation as to why someone with no real long term experience of owning a reptile can alienate and upset someone who has kept specific species long term when there is no real personal experience on which to base that opinion.

Anyway, I've said my piece, and will bow out to leave you two guys to thrash it out


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> So there you go, you have just nominated Paul to be 'that' guy - problem solved.


But again, unless it's a criminal situation where they absolutely have to go, that's just another burden on an already very busy and under-resourced establishment.



Malc said:


> Beg to differ.. I have experience with helicopters, don't mean I can fly one...
> 
> Would you care to elaborate on the experience.... and by all means go into detail if you feel it will help support your arguments.
> 
> ...


I have direct, hands-on experience with several of the species in question by the OP. You don't need to keep them to have that. You're attempting to call me out but you have less experience than I have - there's some irony there.

By your logic, those who made the law shouldn't have made the law if they hadn't kept anything on the schedule.

Scraping up snake poo doesn't make you anything special, and it certainly doesn't make their opinion more or less valid than anybody who knows and understands this piece of legislation.


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## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

ViperLover said:


> I don't keep anything, but I have experience with them - that's more than enough for this discussion. *I have kept venomous both professionally and privately. The two do not compare in anyway. In a professional situation you can hit the bite alarm and help comes running, not the case when you're on your own. You have to sort any issues out yourself. My opinion is that you have to kill or secure the animal before anything else. *
> 
> I don't know who Snaketats is but he's not worth my time. All I simply said is that a contingency plan should be in place for that doomsday situation, where a keeper becomes incapacitated, before animals are purchased.* I know him and his experience is far far greater than yours, if you have any at all?*
> 
> It shouldn't have taken a pandemic to make that obvious. If that wasn't obvious, then there's a liability issue there that needs addressing. If keepers police themselves, the government won't feel compelled to do it for them.*In normal situations most keepers will help each other, but this is not a normal situation. Look at the date I posted. No-one had any idea of how bad the pandemic could be. You may well have protocols in place, but what happens when these protocols aren't viable due to travel restrictions, people being incapacitated etc.? And you are left with no support, what do you do if you can not look after your animals? *





ViperLover said:


> But again, unless it's a criminal situation where they absolutely have to go, that's just another burden on an already very busy and under-resourced establishment. *This is not the case in my experience and yes I have personal experience of what happens when snakes are seized due to a death. Most people involved in these situations wouldn't know of L.S.T.M*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> I have direct, hands-on experience with several of the species in question by the OP. You don't need to keep them to have that. You're attempting to call me out but you have less experience than I have - there's some irony there.


No not calling you out... just wanted to clarify what level of experience you've had.

You are quite right, I've have no experience of *keeping* any snake on the DWA list... *and that's why I don't post in the DWA section of the forum.* 

Equally though, if you have a couple of sessions handling a hot snake under supervision then it don't make you an expert either.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

@ the OP: LOL.

If you don't want input from those who aren't licensed keepers, say so in your OP. No use whinging otherwise.

Freezing reptiles to death is an animal welfare issue. It's also a crime (well done for admitting your intent on that... top job).

My experience goes deeper than what you assume, but hey... whatever.


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## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

ViperLover said:


> @ the OP: LOL.
> 
> If you don't want input from those who aren't licensed keepers, say so in your OP. No use whinging otherwise.*You do make me smile.*
> 
> ...


*You have never worked in a professional situation, you don't keep them at home, at best your experience is limited. How can it be otherwise?*


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## Jordantheretic (Aug 10, 2019)

ViperLover said:


> I don't keep anything, but I have experience with them - that's more than enough for this discussion.
> 
> I don't know who Snaketats is but he's not worth my time. All I simply said is that a contingency plan should be in place for that doomsday situation, where a keeper becomes incapacitated, before animals are purchased.
> 
> It shouldn't have taken a pandemic to make that obvious. If that wasn't obvious, then there's a liability issue there that needs addressing. If keepers police themselves, the government won't feel compelled to do it for them.


I honestly don’t believe a word your saying you lack in complete experience I don’t own front fanged venomous but loads of rear fanged come tackle some of my rear fanged let me see how experienced you are


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

GT2540 said:


> ViperLover said:
> 
> 
> > But again, unless it's a criminal situation where they absolutely have to go, that's just another burden on an already very busy and under-resourced establishment. *This is not the case in my experience and yes I have personal experience of what happens when snakes are seized due to a death. Most people involved in these situations wouldn't know of L.S.T.M*.
> ...


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