# Marine Fish for dummies!



## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

Dont know if someone wants to add to this, and for a mod to make it a sticky, however, I'm putting this up as a request for information on marine tanks.

Does anyone fancy writing an idiots guide to setting up, maintaining and stocking a marine tank?


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

there isn't really an idiots guide to marine keeping. If someone won't put the time in to learn properly how to care for marines then they should probably re-think what to put in their fish tank. It's not an 'idiots' sort of fish tank


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## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

mike515 said:


> there isn't really an idiots guide to marine keeping. If someone won't put the time in to learn properly how to care for marines then they should probably re-think what to put in their fish tank. It's not an 'idiots' sort of fish tank


Not quite what I mean.
I mean more "the very beginners guide"
I've found one here;
Starting a Marine tank. - Tropical Fish Forums

Which I found quite good.


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

*hi*

i do agree with the dummie situstion that mike515 mentioned,he is right but not saying i know all but id be up for helping..: victory:


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Easy to set up, easy to maintain but not in the slightest bit forgiving when it comes to mistakes - we had a heater fail and lost £1500 in livestock, would of spotted it sooner but was at the hospital for two days whilst she was in labour.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Marines are not really for dummies as said :lol2:
Can be expensive to set up although straight forward and easy to maintain BUT time is needed.

Berlin method write up would be best.


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

*berlin method*

this method uses live rock as the main bilogical filtration ,live sand and the addition of a skimmer.

general rule of thumb 1/2 the gallons to kilo of live rock .e.g, 40 gallons =20 kilo of live rock to be used.

live sand is also a benificial addition to the bilogical system

a good quality skimmer 

power heads ( try and 10x per hour the litres ) in water movement.

Also mechanical filtration is recommended ,something along the lines of an external filter ,filled with cotton floss/phosphate remover etc...


SETTING UP.

fill the tank with R.O water ( reverse osmosis water ) add your salt to the instructions directed by the manufacturer .Use power heads at this point it will help dissolve the salt.

dissolve for atleast 24 -48 hours

test the salinity with either a hydrometor or refractometer ,refractometer being the best to use.

salinity should be between 1.020 (fish only )
1.024 -1.025 (reef )

add substrate 

add live rock

have all equipment running as the tank is complete and let the live rock mature you system.These are the readings you will be looking for before you add livestock;


ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate <10
ph 8.0-8.4


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


> Easy to set up, easy to maintain but not in the slightest bit forgiving when it comes to mistakes - we had a heater fail and lost £1500 in livestock, would of spotted it sooner but was at the hospital for two days whilst she was in labour.


It happens Lee we`ve all done it ,how are you anyway hope you`re ok ,you know


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

lennon said:


> this method uses live rock as the main bilogical filtration ,live sand and the addition of a skimmer.
> 
> general rule of thumb 1/2 the gallons to kilo of live rock .e.g, 40 gallons =20 kilo of live rock to be used.
> 
> ...


Not strictly nessersary if you balance the bioload correctly.

Also the weight/volume of the LR can be misleading. Good quality live rock is very porous and therefore lighter than dense low quality rock. HTH


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Phosphate reactors are essential if you want a lot of coral though, too much phosphate stunts their growth.


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

WeThePeople said:


> Phosphate reactors are essential if you want a lot of coral though, too much phosphate stunts their growth.


how did you find that phosphate stunts coral growth?

phosphate is basically an algae fertiliser .It is an inorganic chemical which is a salt of phosphoric acid...( algae fertiliser )

as you probably know,its naturally found in most tap water and can be caused by over feeding ,not doing much water changes etc..

im not so sure about it being a must ,i do know that most hard corals do not appreciate high levels of phosphate and nitrogen. but at the end of the day some corals need some level of degree of this in the water. Its all to do with the biomass and productivity of microorganisms in plantinic ecosystems..

if you find you tank has phosphates of a high level the best thing to do is to slowly lower the level rather than to cut it out all together or you can serisouly shock the system..

But on another note i know where you are coming from as no one wants unsightly algae in their tank so using a phooshate remover from the start will not allow any to enter your system in the first place.


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

Caz said:


> Not strictly nessersary if you balance the bioload correctly.
> 
> Also the weight/volume of the LR can be misleading. Good quality live rock is very porous and therefore lighter than dense low quality rock. HTH



how does this benifit the bilogical eccosystem? meaning that porous rock is far better than dense because there is more space for the bacteria to grow or dense being better because there is more surface area for the bacteria to grow?ive just never came across this before im not being rude just curious...: victory:


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## ip3kid (May 21, 2008)

mike515 said:


> there isn't really an idiots guide to marine keeping. If someone won't put the time in to learn properly how to care for marines then they should probably re-think what to put in their fish tank. It's not an 'idiots' sort of fish tank



I thought the same thing when i said the thread name.


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

ip3kid said:


> I thought the same thing when i said the thread name.


ahct well we all live and learn isnt what these forums are for learning and helping?


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## owlbassboy (Jun 26, 2008)

actually levels phosphate does slow the growth of the calcareous skeleton in stony corals. i met ron hessing at a reefkeepers meet and he was showing me a 4x2x2 tank he had visited wit 150 corals and 50 small fish and this guy had to dose coral. 

it is all about knowing your own tanks needs and taking things from there, its all about getting the right balance.

in no way is a phosphate reactor an essential piece of equipment.

i know of a few tanks very successfully ran without a skimmer but this needs a lot of maintenance and knowledge of what you are doing to get away with this.


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## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

ip3kid said:


> I thought the same thing when i said the thread name.


Again. it's not intended as a case of "Duh, me likie nemos, me wantie phish".
I put it up for simple tank creation, maint and advice to be shared around, for those (like me) who have kept fish before, but have no clue to to go about a marine tank (yet).


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

lennon said:


> how does this benifit the bilogical eccosystem? meaning that porous rock is far better than dense because there is more space for the bacteria to grow or dense being better because there is more surface area for the bacteria to grow?ive just never came across this before im not being rude just curious...: victory:


Sorry - lighter more porous rock is far better - more surface area for bacteria to grow.

Phosphate/corals/reactors. Phosphate actively stops animals absorbing calcium. High phosphate levels will slow LPS and SPS growth. However in a true berlin system IF the bioload is managed correctly there should be no need to run a phosphate reactor/bags of rowphos etc. The reason they become 'standard' equipment is our tendancy to overload or aquariums natural balance.

I think the most important word when starting and keeping marines is SLOWLY.


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

all very true and i agree 100%:thumb:


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## fatratsandcheesekk (May 18, 2008)

great post as i was thinking of getting a nano tank then upgrading to a larger tank if i get on alright i made the transition from coldwater to tropical ok just hopeing this goes ok


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

lennon said:


> how does this benifit the bilogical eccosystem? meaning that porous rock is far better than dense because there is more space for the bacteria to grow or dense being better because there is more surface area for the bacteria to grow?ive just never came across this before im not being rude just curious...: victory:


 
porous rock is generally better for most people. Because it is porous, it actually has much more surface area internally for the bacteria. Plus it's lighter in weight making it easier to work with. Also because of the reduction of weight, it's cheaper to buy by the kilo. Most people will prefer it.

Porous rock means there is more 'free' space within the rock, creating more places for the bacteria to form colonies


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

mike515 said:


> porous rock is generally better for most people. Because it is porous, it actually has much more surface area internally for the bacteria. Plus it's lighter in weight making it easier to work with. Also because of the reduction of weight, it's cheaper to buy by the kilo. Most people will prefer it.
> 
> Porous rock means there is more 'free' space within the rock, creating more places for the bacteria to form colonies



very good ,i like the come back as ive always said you learn something every day when it comes to marines... i have just never come across this before .

ive been tought that the heavier the rock in smaller bits makes room for more -hence better filtration..( and that came from a marine biologyst ) funny that but also a guy who owns his own shop -hense make more money .:lol2:

very good :2thumb:


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

I can't work out why dense rock has more surface area. It means that less of the internal rock is exposed to host bacteria, therefore this would mean LESS surface area. Porous rock has more exposed area internally, in the form of tunnels etc. That would increase surface area.

If I'm wrong, fair enough. BUT I'm gonna want a decent explanation on how a rock with less exposed surface has more surface area.

dense rock is just that, dense. A solid piece of marble has the surface area of it's external surface only. Marble with lots of internal space has the external surface area as well as the internal. Lets say there was a 4x4x4cm solid block of anything, the surface area would be 64cm3. A rock with a hollow interal area of say 3x3x3, would have the original 64cm3 plus the interal 27cm3. Obviously live rock isn't a uniform size with a hollowed out chamber but the basic idea is the same. It has free space within which exposes more surface area.


smashing the rock will create more surface area. But you can counter that by using smashed bits of porous rock.


I also had this explained to me by a qualified marine biologist.

the shop owner part is irrelevant, if both of us went out and bought a marine shop, would that make us both right? Somehow I doubt that.


As far as I'm aware I'm correct, I've always known this to be how it is. If I'm wrong fair enough. I'll admit to it, no need for you to be sarcastic. It's a free speech forum. Meaning that if you post something it's open to debate. You may be wrong, I may be wrong. Either way that's just how it goes. Don't get all arsey because someone has a different knowledge of something (it may just be that either of us is misinformed).


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

mike515 said:


> I can't work out why dense rock has more surface area. It means that less of the internal rock is exposed to host bacteria, therefore this would mean LESS surface area. Porous rock has more exposed area internally, in the form of tunnels etc. That would increase surface area.
> 
> If I'm wrong, fair enough. BUT I'm gonna want a decent explanation on how a rock with less exposed surface has more surface area.
> 
> ...


No, you're not wrong as per my original post: porous rock = lighter rock = more surface area for denitrifying bacteria = less rock weight/volume needed = less £££ for the retailer per aquarium set up (which I think was the point lennon was making re the shop owner comment.)


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## treeboa (May 4, 2005)

pourus rock is all find and dandy untill is covered in coraline, then its near useless as water cannot flow through it, also old live rock may have become single bacteria dominant ( old tank syndrome) and from that unable to provide the filtration new live rock can, there is no idiots guide to marine fishkeeping as no two tanks are the same, even two tank set up side by side will be different, flow is not the be all and end all in the tank, nor is lots of liverock, far better having a more open stucture and less live rock with good flow than having just a tank full of liverock and lots of dead flow areas within it and high flow
most people come from freshwater tank keepers, and bring a lot of thier experiences with them, unfortunatly a lot of freshwater experience is not pertinent to marine keeping, in this sometimes its better to come into the game a `virgin`, i have been into the game more than 20 years, when i started we used to pee in the tank to start it going, using ug reverse flow filtration initially with air tubes providing the flow, then with these new fangled power heads, a lot has changed since then, though i still consider myself a novice, the main problems are overstocking and people running before they can even crawl, hence the amount of posts you see on marine forums, look at my new tank, then 12 weeks later " im getting out of this game"


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Caz said:


> No, you're not wrong as per my original post: porous rock = lighter rock = more surface area for denitrifying bacteria = less rock weight/volume needed = less £££ for the retailer per aquarium set up (which I think was the point lennon was making re the shop owner comment.)


I dunno, I was in a foul mood last night.


Sorry lennon if I took hour post the wrong way. Was not a happy bunny last night


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

mike515 said:


> I can't work out why dense rock has more surface area. It means that less of the internal rock is exposed to host bacteria, therefore this would mean LESS surface area. Porous rock has more exposed area internally, in the form of tunnels etc. That would increase surface area.
> 
> If I'm wrong, fair enough. BUT I'm gonna want a decent explanation on how a rock with less exposed surface has more surface area.
> 
> ...



omg why do people take me the wrong way i wasnt being sarc to what you said...was saying that it was good to hear other points ..plus what i was trying to say that when people are wanting to make money ,they will infact make you belive untruths .. so please stop thinking that im telling you ,you are wrong i believe you ......!

so do take the time to re read my last post that made you think that and actually think about what i said before you comment. 

im not here to make enemies im here to help others and learn myself and all i can say is that ive had nothing but negative issues from you... :sad:

it does actually make me feel uncomfortable sharing my thoughts on this forum. as im a keen fish keeper and have been for years dont make me feel bad about it............


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

Caz said:


> No, you're not wrong as per my original post: porous rock = lighter rock = more surface area for denitrifying bacteria = less rock weight/volume needed = less £££ for the retailer per aquarium set up (which I think was the point lennon was making re the shop owner comment.)



#thanks


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## lennon (Oct 3, 2008)

mike515 said:


> I dunno, I was in a foul mood last night.
> 
> 
> Sorry lennon if I took hour post the wrong way. Was not a happy bunny last night



no excuse really a forum is not here to take it out on others .. i do accept your appoligies...(cnt spell) on the other hand. i to be honest have nothing but a bad experience from you and dont know how to take you 

regards Shelley


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