# Pedro the goldfish is sick...



## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

I thought he was just having the usual swim bladder problems, have barely put food in the tank (besides 3x servings of peas each week) for around 3 weeks now, and he's just not getting any better. He's had the case of the upside-downies before but a week off the food and some peas always sorts him, and to be honest he remains the same cheeky lil sod he's always been. This time he's so listless, he perks up and seems ok occasionally, but he just seems not himself at all... it seemed different so i've been giving him the interpet swim bladder medicine (3rd dose was tonight)... it's helped him a little floating wise, he's upside-down less, but he's still looking so listless.

For those who don't know Pedro is a 5inch ish fancy goldfish, living in a 4ft tank with a weather loach, a 6 inch black oranda, and a couple of apple snails. 20% water change done every week with the tap water being treated with API stress coat or whichever it is for water conditioner (too many names to remember without me looking in the cupboards again!), running 2 internal filters (one Ehiem big enough on its own for the set up with help from a Fluval U2). The other fish are fine.

The worst thing is i've just tested the water, after tonight's water change, like a fool i don't know why i hadn't done it before, but i guess the answer is staring me right in the face - ph 7.5, Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, NITRATE AROUND 160PPM :bash::bash:

I'm guessing it's lots of water changes for a while til its down... but surely all the fish should be as sick as Pedro? He's normally hard as nails, so upsetting to see him like this  i don't even understand how the Nitrate can be so high when water changes etc are done regularly and it's an established cycled tank.

I'm panicking... someone give me some ideas/help/advice and a bashing for not testing the water sooner... (i just thought he was having the usual digestive issue). He might be 'just a fish' to most people but he's my little terror and i want him to be happy and healthy again! I'd take him to a vet if i could Lol


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Nitrates are relatively harmless. 
Do you feed floating food, or sinking food?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Esfa said:


> Nitrates are relatively harmless.
> Do you feed floating food, or sinking food?


sinking saki hikari pellets, and i chuck in the odd algae wafer for the loach...which inevitably gets eaten by everyone else. Also get peas and (trying but they don't seem very interested!) other greens 2-3 times a week.

The other goldfish (the oranda) was eating the same food given by her owner - the floating hikari oranda pellets in quarantine ... i always thought floating was bad but she was fine eating this in quarinteen, but now obv she eats the sinking pellets same as the rest of the tankmates... it's not like you can give them individual plates :lol2:

I'm still a newbie to a lot of fishkeeping stuff... especially the chemical sides of it - i thought nitrates were really bad? :s


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Ah good. A lot of goldies can gulp too much air if you feed them floating food, btu you seem to be doing just fine. :2thumb:

NitrAtes aren't too bad, it's the nitrItes that are!

All I can suggest is keep dosing and keep up with water changes. good luck.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Esfa said:


> Ah good. A lot of goldies can gulp too much air if you feed them floating food, btu you seem to be doing just fine. :2thumb:
> 
> NitrAtes aren't too bad, it's the nitrItes that are!
> 
> All I can suggest is keep dosing and keep up with water changes. good luck.


he does that anyway, he's so greedy that as soon as i open the lid he's gulping ready to catch the food at the surface rather than eating it as it sinks down :devil:

it's weird, at the moment he's upside down but at the bottom, then he'll move and float in a circle when he stops, and he'll be upside down but half way up the tank. sometimes he looks like he's struggling, then sometimes he seems to maneuver himself to be upside down. He's also looking a bit round. I wish i could just rub his belly and burp him if its gas he's got!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Best advice I can give you is test your tapwater itself. I use remineralised RO in all my tanks now because my rubbish tap water comes out over 100ppm nitrAte straight away.
Prolonged exposure to Nitrate can be harmful, but it isn't always harmful. I'd get it down either way, then it's ruled out. Less than 20 ppm in an ideal world, less than 50 should be fine in the real world though!
If your tapwaters horrible, that tetra nitrate minus actually works a treat, but would cost a fair bit to dose on such a big tank.

Good luck with him  I hope he turns out okay!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Best advice I can give you is test your tapwater itself. I use remineralised RO in all my tanks now because my rubbish tap water comes out over 100ppm nitrAte straight away.
> Prolonged exposure to Nitrate can be harmful, but it isn't always harmful. I'd get it down either way, then it's ruled out. Less than 20 ppm in an ideal world, less than 50 should be fine in the real world though!
> If your tapwaters horrible, that tetra nitrate minus actually works a treat, but would cost a fair bit to dose on such a big tank.
> 
> Good luck with him  I hope he turns out okay!


 thanks 

that sounds a good idea, always good to see what you're working with when it comes out the tap :/ i think i have tested the tap water last year but can't remember how it turned out for the life of me! if it's high then i guess i'll have to find a solution - if that tetra stuff the way to go then i'll splash out! i wish Surrey Pets Supplies did fish stuff  they did for a bit and it was such good value! and then they stopped


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

bless you, they havent been together long either have they. we have had fancy goldfish just suddenly start to float with no signs of it before, and we too feed saki hikari sinking pellets, peas, sweetcorn, lots of roughage with nothing that floats. thing is, they are so deformed to get them to the shape they are, their internal organs are cramped up as it is. i would say, as long as he can still eat, isnt floating on the surface as it can cause wounds with them being in contact with the air, and still seems to have some time moving around, i would leave him be. you can get recipes for gel foods which you can make, and these will have zero gas content. it could be worth a go. i hope he perks up for you soon, and i would definitely say to test that tap water.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> bless you, they havent been together long either have they. we have had fancy goldfish just suddenly start to float with no signs of it before, and we too feed saki hikari sinking pellets, peas, sweetcorn, lots of roughage with nothing that floats. thing is, they are so deformed to get them to the shape they are, their internal organs are cramped up as it is. i would say, as long as he can still eat, isnt floating on the surface as it can cause wounds with them being in contact with the air, and still seems to have some time moving around, i would leave him be. you can get recipes for gel foods which you can make, and these will have zero gas content. it could be worth a go. i hope he perks up for you soon, and i would definitely say to test that tap water.



Maybe having a wife is too stressful for him! :lol2: i'll have to get him a garden shed to hide in...

he doesn't tend to surface float - the nearest he does is usually first thing when i see him in the morning he'll prop himself in the corner vertically with his tail up and nose down, but he doesn't seem to having anything out of the water.

I'm going to have a look for some gel food recipes - they're all being a pain with their veggie eating habits, they only seem to really go for eating peas and oranges - broccoli, courgette etc just gets ignored no matter how i prepare it! trying sprouts later in the week - if that doesn't make him fart it all out then i don't know what will! Hopefully he will sort himself out soon, he just looks so sad!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

mine tend to just get the peas and sweetcorn now, the broccoli was too messy and my husband hates the smell of oranges even before they are peeled. they have a constant supply of live plants too. 

lol had to giggle at the garden shed thing, so funny :lol2:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> mine tend to just get the peas and sweetcorn now, the broccoli was too messy and my husband hates the smell of oranges even before they are peeled. they have a constant supply of live plants too.
> 
> lol had to giggle at the garden shed thing, so funny :lol2:


LOL and the broccoli STINKS! honestly we were pretty glad they didn't eat it! 

i do have fun on shopping day wondering what to try them on next :blush:


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## lillevenn (Apr 24, 2010)

Nitrates are relatively harmless, true, but only up to a certain point. I'd get some nitrate sponges in your eheim if you don't have any in there already and like you said yourself, up the water changes. 
Do bear in mind that the most common cause of high nitrates is over-feeding, so while lots of roughage might help right his balance if he's swallowed air they will also contribute to your filter load! : victory: Try some general fish tonic for his swim bladder and maybe cut back on the feeding a bit.

Best of luck.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

lillevenn said:


> Nitrates are relatively harmless, true, but only up to a certain point. I'd get some nitrate sponges in your eheim if you don't have any in there already and like you said yourself, up the water changes.
> Do bear in mind that the most common cause of high nitrates is over-feeding, so while lots of roughage might help right his balance if he's swallowed air they will also contribute to your filter load! : victory: Try some general fish tonic for his swim bladder and maybe cut back on the feeding a bit.
> 
> Best of luck.



they are barely getting fed though  they wont be impressed lol

i'll look into the nitrate sponges... are they an additional thing that fits in with the current sponge? don't wanna have to cycle and grow bacteria all over again!


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## lillevenn (Apr 24, 2010)

Generally the nitrate sponges would be an extra sponge. With all that filtration i wouldn't worry about having to cycle, you've got more than enough to pick up the slack. If you're not comfortable with that try some 'nitrazorb', should go in with your existing ceramic media.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

lillevenn said:


> Generally the nitrate sponges would be an extra sponge. With all that filtration i wouldn't worry about having to cycle, you've got more than enough to pick up the slack. If you're not comfortable with that try some 'nitrazorb', should go in with your existing ceramic media.


hmm got a feeling i might already have some of that... will check the cupboards when i get home!

when you say ceramic media - that's like the rock thingys in middle bit of the Fluval U2 (the Eheim is just sponge)... there is actually less of them so they could do with replacing anyway... i didn't worry too much seeing as its the secondary filter


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

bloody hell!

just tested the tap water for nitrates - its not much less than the tank!!!! around 100ppm :censor:

don't remember this last time i tested just the tap water last year, it was ages ago but i'd remember it being this bad!!

Bloody council pop must have changed 

found a sachet of aqua detox at the back of the cupboard, but its not enough for this size tank - will do for now i guess.. it says it reduces nitrate and all the others (they're fine tho) so why not lol


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## lillevenn (Apr 24, 2010)

Oh dear, mighht be worth popping out to your local marine shop for some RO water like Christie ZXR suggests!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i need to test my tap water, ive been thinking this for a while now.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

lillevenn said:


> Oh dear, mighht be worth popping out to your local marine shop for some RO water like Christie ZXR suggests!



what... like get all the water from a shop?? i don't have a car 

I've ordered some nitrate sponges, i really hope that helps because trying to bring home that amount of water home on anything but a car is impossible


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> i need to test my tap water, ive been thinking this for a while now.


yep, defo worth doing, i wish i had done it much sooner now!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

I picked up my RO unit off ebay for 40 odd quid, can't recommend them enough if your tap water is rubbish (which mine is!) remineraliser came from MA for about 7 or 8 quid, and that was several months ago, so the stuff lasts great. I use RO in 6 of my tanks, and a mixture of RO and tap in the other two planted ones. 
It's lovely, because I know I can keep whatever fish I like withough worrying about the wrong water, I can mix the RO up to whatever pH/hardness etc the fish need.


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

AQUARIUM 50 GPD 3 STAGE RO REVERSE OSMOSIS SYSTEM UNIT | eBay

That's not the same one, but it's pretty similar to mine to give you an idea


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> AQUARIUM 50 GPD 3 STAGE RO REVERSE OSMOSIS SYSTEM UNIT | eBay
> 
> That's not the same one, but it's pretty similar to mine to give you an idea



Ok... going to sound really thick now... but what on earth is it, how does it work etc... i have no clue about RO systems :blush:


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

That's k, don't worry.

Reverse Osmosis works by pushing the water through a selection of filters inside the unit, and removes everything from tap water. Metals, chlorine, chloramine, phosphate, nitrate, the lot. You basically get pure h2o with nothing else in it at the end. What you do have to do is add remineraliser before you use the water in a tank, because the unit removes the good stuff aswell as the bad stuff.

TMC: Aquarium Products - Tropic Marin Aquarium Additives
(you'd probably want "Pro Cichlid Mineral", that should be about right for goldies too)

You can connect an ro unit to a pipe, but I have no idea how and I didn't fancy drilling holes in pipes!! So I just bought a hosepipe attachment for the tap in the kitchen sink, and it screws onto that. The waste water, full of all the crap the unit removes, goes down the kitchen sink, and the RO gets fed into 5L bottles.

Hope that makes sense! The benifit is you get exactly the water you want, the downside is it wastes a load, and is a lot more hassle than just turning on the tap!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> That's k, don't worry.
> 
> Reverse Osmosis works by pushing the water through a selection of filters inside the unit, and removes everything from tap water. Metals, chlorine, chloramine, phosphate, nitrate, the lot. You basically get pure h2o with nothing else in it at the end. What you do have to do is add remineraliser before you use the water in a tank, because the unit removes the good stuff aswell as the bad stuff.
> 
> ...



:gasp::gasp::gasp:

this sounds so epic... see i thought it was like an external filter type thing (but an extra thing not replacing the filter) and was something plumbed into the tank :blush:

i've just read that UK tap water shouldn't be more than 50 ppm.... i did the test properly (lots of shaking and stopwatches lol) and i did it twice to be sure... how on earth can my tap water be so high in Nitrates... my boyfriends worried about us drinking the stuff now! :gasp:


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Don't even go there! :devil:

I retested mine a while ago, and it was reading about 50ppm. Although, at the beginning of the year it was on 100. It seems to be lower at certain times of year, maybe the times when the inspectors are coming to the have a look!!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Don't even go there! :devil:
> 
> I retested mine a while ago, and it was reading about 50ppm. Although, at the beginning of the year it was on 100. It seems to be lower at certain times of year, maybe the times when the inspectors are coming to the have a look!!



it's crazy, it can't be good for us LOL. I'm not normally fussy about tap water (i prefer it to bottled etc) but since we moved to London we've had to buy a stupid filter jug as it tastes so weird and gave us bad stomachs all the time . I go crazy at the tap when i visit my mum in Stoke... much nicer council pop!!!


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Hey u, hows Pedro doing now?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Hey u, hows Pedro doing now?



still not great, he's picking up VERY slightly, and i mean very 

He keeps to one corner of the tank most of the time, looking very sorry for himself, but he seems to move about the tank a tad more. I think it's going to take him a while to get better. Been using the nitrate sponges in the ehiem...all crammed in with the normal sponge lol.

Does nitrate 'poisoning' give fish a headache or something? i know in people it effects how much oxygen the blood can absorb.. is it similar in fish? like he's not getting enough oxygen?

to top it off the poor sod's got a touch of white spot too.. but i can't medicate for 7 days after the swim bladder treatment..last dose is tonight... so it'll just have to be a little extra salt in the tank for now.


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

I don't really know the effects of it on the fish, just that it's "bad" over a certain level, but I did find this;
Nitrates in the Aquarium - Coping With Nitrates in the Aquarium
maybe adding an airstone would help?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> I don't really know the effects of it on the fish, just that it's "bad" over a certain level, but I did find this;
> Nitrates in the Aquarium - Coping With Nitrates in the Aquarium
> maybe adding an airstone would help?


might give that a whirl... i hate seeing him like this he's normally such a feisty little sh*t! i really think he's not getting the oxygen he needs... although i think there's enough oxygen going about.. he just can't absorb it into his system properly. 

I think another thing to look into is the planted route... i know goldfish will munch most plants and i'm going to have to completely re-do the tank set up (nightmare LOL) as it's just coloured gravel which i'm guessing you can't grow much in!but plants help keep the nitrate down from what i'm reading everywhere. I've seen those live moss balls does anyone know if they'll be alright to just chuck in...even if it doesn't last long i'll just keep replacing them for the time being.


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

Moss balls are ace! And dead easy, just chuck em in and let them get on with it. I've only ever managed to kill a moss ball once, and that was because I stuck it in a baby biorb, so kinda to be expected with the little 5W light! lol


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Moss balls are ace! And dead easy, just chuck em in and let them get on with it. I've only ever managed to kill a moss ball once, and that was because I stuck it in a baby biorb, so kinda to be expected with the little 5W light! lol



eeek... i have no actual light, although the whole room is a sun trap (huge skylights and windows everywhere - with a view of bog all i might add). Just bought 3, if they get eaten or die then no big deal i guess... it can munch the nitrates hopefully even a little will help!!


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> might give that a whirl... i hate seeing him like this he's normally such a feisty little sh*t! i really think he's not getting the oxygen he needs... although i think there's enough oxygen going about.. he just can't absorb it into his system properly.
> 
> I think another thing to look into is the planted route... i know goldfish will munch most plants and i'm going to have to completely re-do the tank set up (nightmare LOL) as it's just coloured gravel which i'm guessing you can't grow much in!but plants help keep the nitrate down from what i'm reading everywhere. I've seen those live moss balls does anyone know if they'll be alright to just chuck in...even if it doesn't last long i'll just keep replacing them for the time being.


If you want quick growing nitrate nomming machine plants, go with Java moss, grows like a weed! If you have somebody local they should be able to give you a large clump cheaply. I would but im a tad far away : victory:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> If you want quick growing nitrate nomming machine plants, go with Java moss, grows like a weed! If you have somebody local they should be able to give you a large clump cheaply. I would but im a tad far away : victory:



cool, from what i see its another one that doesn't require the level of care that a 'planted' aquarium would need... i can just plonk it and it will grow anywhere... ie on my gravel  ?


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> cool, from what i see its another one that doesn't require the level of care that a 'planted' aquarium would need... i can just plonk it and it will grow anywhere... ie on my gravel  ?


yep, it needs light, any will do, hot, cold, fertilised or not, doesnt bother it.

Obviously, if you _can_ give it a dedicated light and are willing to dose with micro nutriets, it will do much better :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> yep, it needs light, any will do, hot, cold, fertilised or not, doesnt bother it.
> 
> Obviously, if you _can_ give it a dedicated light and are willing to dose with micro nutriets, it will do much better :2thumb:



cool, thanks for the suggestion!

reckon will look quite nice actually have a bit of plant life in there... hopefully they don't do what my tomato plants did and take over the kitchen (and not make any tomatoes LOL i'm no gardener!!!)


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> cool, thanks for the suggestion!
> 
> reckon will look quite nice actually have a bit of plant life in there... hopefully they don't do what my tomato plants did and take over the kitchen (and not make any tomatoes LOL i'm no gardener!!!)


ohhh, it will. That's the point : victory: let it grow to a large mat/clump, them just trim'n'chuck - boom, throwing away nitrates :2thumb:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> ohhh, it will. That's the point : victory: let it grow to a large mat/clump, them just trim'n'chuck - boom, throwing away nitrates :2thumb:



cool...wont need to chuck much away i have two hungry apple snails who will have a munch no doubt!


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> cool...wont need to chuck much away i have two hungry apple snails who will have a munch no doubt!


In that case you will want above the critical mass where fresh growth outstrips snail eating otherwise the nitrates just stay in the tank, shuttling from 1 bio-lock to another, but still accumilating  as a closed system, to remove the nitrates that you put in via food and your water, you need to remove something. Typically this is water that you remove, but if you lock it up in plants, then some plants can be removed rather than water.

If your plants grow at the rate that the snails eat them (a so-called steady state equilibrium), then the plants will use the nitrAte in the water column (-nitrate), be eaten by the snails, the snails digest the plant, releasing ammonia as waste, this is converted to nitrIte, then to nitrAte (+nitrate), which is used by the plants at the same rate as before - i.e. the overal amount of nitrate doesn't change. You then add extra nitrate through food being added and you're in the same position as before : victory:

Aquarium chemistry can be a pain, but just remember that you are the only thing putting nitrate in and taking nitrate out, regardless of what form. Everything else is just nitrate locked up in 1 form or another


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> In that case you will want above the critical mass where fresh growth outstrips snail eating otherwise the nitrates just stay in the tank, shuttling from 1 bio-lock to another, but still accumilating  as a closed system, to remove the nitrates that you put in via food and your water, you need to remove something. Typically this is water that you remove, but if you lock it up in plants, then some plants can be removed rather than water.
> 
> If your plants grow at the rate that the snails eat them (a so-called steady state equilibrium), then the plants will use the nitrAte in the water column (-nitrate), be eaten by the snails, the snails digest the plant, releasing ammonia as waste, this is converted to nitrIte, then to nitrAte (+nitrate), which is used by the plants at the same rate as before - i.e. the overal amount of nitrate doesn't change. You then add extra nitrate through food being added and you're in the same position as before : victory:
> 
> Aquarium chemistry can be a pain, but just remember that you are the only thing putting nitrate in and taking nitrate out, regardless of what form. Everything else is just nitrate locked up in 1 form or another


so basically.... have more plants in the tank than the snails can eat, and keep on top of water changes to control the waste product effects... 

they're quite big apple snails so probably wont be around forever i guess :/ i'll see how they act with the moss balls... if they don't last 5 seconds then i may have to think of other options. The snails are cool as they do a good job keeping the surface algae down (again most of our house is a sun trap unfortunately) but if its for Pedro's health then maybe they'll have to find a new home


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> so basically.... have more plants in the tank than the snails can eat, and keep on top of water changes to control the waste product effects...
> 
> they're quite big apple snails so probably wont be around forever i guess :/ i'll see how they act with the moss balls... if they don't last 5 seconds then i may have to think of other options. The snails are cool as they do a good job keeping the surface algae down (again most of our house is a sun trap unfortunately) but if its for Pedro's health then maybe they'll have to find a new home


tbh, when java moss is going full whack, I doubt they will be able to keep up. And you don't need loads of plants and still regular water changes, you can take extra growth out of the tank as well, this will deal with the nitrates better than water changes because of how rich your tap water already is. Another option is to use things like a spider plant or devils ivy with the roots in the tank and them growing out to drag more nitrates out, again, removal of the plants is removal of nitrates. I am unsure if you would need to fertilise with that though : victory:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> tbh, when java moss is going full whack, I doubt they will be able to keep up. And you don't need loads of plants and still regular water changes, you can take extra growth out of the tank as well, this will deal with the nitrates better than water changes because of how rich your tap water already is. Another option is to use things like a spider plant or devils ivy with the roots in the tank and them growing out to drag more nitrates out, again, removal of the plants is removal of nitrates. I am unsure if you would need to fertilise with that though : victory:



i quite like the idea of the plants growing out of the tank... :lol2: it will be like a jungle overgrowing the house... i wish!

i'll see how i get on with the moss balls and java moss first... if it doesn't work then i guess i'd better get my head round all this planted tank stuff.

Just done yet another water change... totally pointless but there you go... at least the tap water nitrates are slightly lower :/ but at least it woke Pedro up, poor bugger looks so depressed when he's sulking in the corner with what i've decided is an enormous fishy headache and whatever else


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> i quite like the idea of the plants growing out of the tank... :lol2: it will be like a jungle overgrowing the house... i wish!
> 
> i'll see how i get on with the moss balls and java moss first... if it doesn't work then i guess i'd better get my head round all this planted tank stuff.
> 
> Just done yet another water change... totally pointless but there you go... at least the tap water nitrates are slightly lower :/ but at least it woke Pedro up, poor bugger looks so depressed when he's sulking in the corner with what i've decided is an enormous fishy headache and whatever else


:lol2: planted tanks are a lot easier than they seem when you get going. It's one of those subjects where seeing and doing is a much better explanation than reading : victory:

awwww, poor pedro. I hope he starts to pick up sooner rather than later! have you tried calling the council to complain about the high nitrate levels?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> :lol2: planted tanks are a lot easier than they seem when you get going. It's one of those subjects where seeing and doing is a much better explanation than reading : victory:
> 
> awwww, poor pedro. I hope he starts to pick up sooner rather than later! have you tried calling the council to complain about the high nitrate levels?



i did think about ringing Thames Water about it... it's on my to-do list! they will probably think i'm mad and will say the test is designed with fish keeping in mind not drinking water or will make some crap excuse - a test is a test in my eyes! i bet they'll test it and say its fine :devil::devil:

Apparently high nitrates are very bad for babies... i haven't any kids but the people on the floor below have a baby, so i think i should make that call and make a point of mentioning that


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> i did think about ringing Thames Water about it... it's on my to-do list! they will probably think i'm mad and will say the test is designed with fish keeping in mind not drinking water or will make some crap excuse - a test is a test in my eyes! i bet they'll test it and say its fine :devil::devil:
> 
> Apparently high nitrates are very bad for babies... i haven't any kids but the people on the floor below have a baby, so i think i should make that call and make a point of mentioning that


at the end of the day, nitrates are nitrates, the testing kit you use would be the same as we use at work (I work in a testing lab : victory. Just be polite and calm with them. Say that you noticed because of harm it is causing to your fish and you are concerned because of what you have read elsewhere regarding nitrates effects on humans. 

I know from Irish standards that i've got to hand that in IRE at least, 50 mg/L for drinking water is the limit, with 25mg/L as a guidline value : victory: This equates to aprx 50 ppm and 25 ppm respectively.

As before, call up, be polite, say you are concerned.

Hope that helps!

EDIT: should also add that most EU values are the same, so that should be the same over here


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> at the end of the day, nitrates are nitrates, the testing kit you use would be the same as we use at work (I work in a testing lab : victory. Just be polite and calm with them. Say that you noticed because of harm it is causing to your fish and you are concerned because of what you have read elsewhere regarding nitrates effects on humans.
> 
> I know from Irish standards that i've got to hand that in IRE at least, 50 mg/L for drinking water is the limit, with 25mg/L as a guidline value : victory: This equates to aprx 50 ppm and 25 ppm respectively.
> 
> ...



cool thanks, that's really helpful! yeah i think i read it should be 50ppm at the most... my readings looked approx 80-100ppm! Hopefully the people on the phone will not think i'm completely mad :blush:


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> cool thanks, that's really helpful! yeah i think i read it should be 50ppm at the most... my readings looked approx 80-100ppm! Hopefully the people on the phone will not think i'm completely mad :blush:


With the length of piping from source to user, there could be a problem anywhere, it is notoriously difficult and prohibitively(sp?) costly to check all drinking water all along the route so it requires that discerning members of the public report issues when they spot them =D


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

does anyone have any suggestions or know any medications to help Pedro improve or provide him some relief?

I just found this page and it mentions green tea?

GoldFish Emergency 911 - Nitrate; the gentle giant

Any suggestions would be fab... i'm mid google but would love to hear things you've tried to see what really works.

Been really reading up about nitrate poisoning in fish... and i've got this sinking feeling that yes he had a swim bladder problem as usual the nitrate poisoning is whats really done the damage... i've been treating the wrong thing first and kicking myself so much - why oh why didn't i test the water weeks ago when this started


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

also alot of my googling is bringing up chlorophyll and taking the cover off the tank to help with oxygen levels

GoldFish Emergency 911 - Discussion Forum: Nitrate poisoning? Further treatment?


i wish there was such a thing as a fish vet !


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Christie_ZXR said:


> Best advice I can give you is test your tapwater itself. I use remineralised RO in all my tanks now because my rubbish tap water comes out over 100ppm nitrAte straight away.
> Prolonged exposure to Nitrate can be harmful, but it isn't always harmful. I'd get it down either way, then it's ruled out. Less than 20 ppm in an ideal world, less than 50 should be fine in the real world though!
> If your tapwaters horrible, that tetra nitrate minus actually works a treat, but would cost a fair bit to dose on such a big tank.
> 
> Good luck with him  I hope he turns out okay!


If your test kit is accurate then you should contact your local water authority as it should not be above 50ppm. I believe this is a european legal limit. Or at least it was a long time ago. Mine is under 10ppm so I've not had a problem personally. 

Nitrates are harmful if above 50ppm for any length of time with a lot of popular species. Mentioning that as someone suggested they're not a problem. Nitrate can cause your fish to become ill if levels are too high. People should bear that in mind.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Mynki said:


> If your test kit is accurate then you should contact your local water authority as it should not be above 50ppm. I believe this is a european legal limit. Or at least it was a long time ago. Mine is under 10ppm so I've not had a problem personally.
> 
> Nitrates are harmful if above 50ppm for any length of time with a lot of popular species. Mentioning that as someone suggested they're not a problem. Nitrate can cause your fish to become ill if levels are too high. People should bear that in mind.



Testing again in a min... just to be sure before i go to the water company. By the colour it was definitely above 50 - so it's not like a funny mid area where i could easily misread 

He is definitely a very sick fish, it's text book nitrate poisoning from what i've read. Hopefully i can bring him back from this... he's a tough cookie


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

well the tank nitrate has come down slightly since using the nitrate sponge, now reads around 90ppm


Tap water read around 80ppm  slightly paler than my last test, but not good enough really

on the upside playing around with colourful glass test tube things has made me feel like a scientist :lol2:


the downside is after a brief swim round Pedro is upside down at the floor of the tank... from what i've been reading it's a pressure thing, poor sod.


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

is it feasible for you to go to your LFS and buy a load of RO water for a massive waterchange now? will give you a bit of a restbite for 7-10 days?


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Have you added some aquarium salt to relieve the osmotic pressure on the fish whilst hes unwell,may help a little.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> is it feasible for you to go to your LFS and buy a load of RO water for a massive waterchange now? will give you a bit of a restbite for 7-10 days?



Not until the weekend as i'm working  and will be a taxi job back aarghhhh!

I left the lid on the hood open over night, one of the suggestions i read and he seemed a little perkier this morning, not much but it's a start i guess... wish my moss would hurry up too!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Berber King said:


> Have you added some aquarium salt to relieve the osmotic pressure on the fish whilst hes unwell,may help a little.



Yep, i added some to help with the white spot that he's developed anyway, so hopefully that will help him a bit


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

I know you have nitrate sponges, but I dunno if this will help save a bit of cash : victory:

Juwel Nitrate Removal Sponge Filter Media for Sale


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> I know you have nitrate sponges, but I dunno if this will help save a bit of cash : victory:
> 
> Juwel Nitrate Removal Sponge Filter Media for Sale



those are the ones i'm using  stuffed into the bottom of the ehiem lol


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> those are the ones i'm using  stuffed into the bottom of the ehiem lol


I mentioned them because they have a 50% sale atm so the jumbo ones are ~£5 : victory:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> I mentioned them because they have a 50% sale atm so the jumbo ones are ~£5 : victory:



oh yeah, sorry i'm blind as a bat!! i got a pack of 3 compact size ones on ebay for about £15 with postage, so thats a good deal there, cheers


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

pfffffffft 


Thames Water called me back and a very nice man made me feel like a pleb with a sick fairground goldfish in a bowl.

He wanted to know how much the test kit was... i told him its the API one and cost about £30 or whatever it was and he replied with well our testing equipment cost £50,000 so i think ours is the more accurate one....

i gave up at that point.:bash:


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> pfffffffft
> 
> 
> Thames Water called me back and a very nice man made me feel like a pleb with a sick fairground goldfish in a bowl.
> ...


well, that's pretty rude of him! I would be inclined to call up again and request that they test the tap water near yours. Try calling the council to express concerns otherwise. Water companies are massive douches unfortunately! he high nitrate could be frrom a crack in the piping a meter from your house or from where the water is collected, or anywhere inbetween!

I would escalate it to your council/local MP. Your kit is accurate enough to read if the water is above 100ppm, there will be accurate to 0.01ppm so they can say it is (for example) 87.68ppm or 87.69ppm. Don't be bowled over by expensive kits, wet chem is still the ultimate way of testing concentrations, and that is what the API kit is, a wet chem set. : victory:

EDIT: Have you had the reading confirmed by a second test? Try taking samples down to your LFS and ask for a free test


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> well, that's pretty rude of him! I would be inclined to call up again and request that they test the tap water near yours. Try calling the council to express concerns otherwise. Water companies are massive douches unfortunately! he high nitrate could be frrom a crack in the piping a meter from your house or from where the water is collected, or anywhere inbetween!
> 
> I would escalate it to your council/local MP. Your kit is accurate enough to read if the water is above 100ppm, there will be accurate to 0.01ppm so they can say it is (for example) 87.68ppm or 87.69ppm. Don't be bowled over by expensive kits, wet chem is still the ultimate way of testing concentrations, and that is what the API kit is, a wet chem set. : victory:
> 
> EDIT: Have you had the reading confirmed by a second test? Try taking samples down to your LFS and ask for a free test


yeah he just kind of spoke to me like I was some silly girl... so annoying! Like you said there could be a problem anywhere causing this coming from a pipe after the water has been tested through their stupid contraption!

I will get some tested at the LFS to triple check


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

the bloody cheek of it! i too would be taking it higher, and i would also be taking notes of any conversations you have had too.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> the bloody cheek of it! i too would be taking it higher, and i would also be taking notes of any conversations you have had too.



i will, i'm so annoyed he made feel a right tool!

LOL he gave me an educational talk about chlorine and how i should put the fish tank water in the fridge for an hour to get rid of the chlorine before putting it in.... okkkkkkk i don't think i can fit 5 buckets of water in my fridge so i'll just stick with using the tap water conditioners every other sane fish keeper uses! 

Meanwhile Pedro continues to improve, obviously the nitrates are still too high, but not as high as before, and he seems much more active, which is good news as i thought that if there was no improvement in the next few weeks and he continued to suffer like he was then i would have to consider euthanising him, which i really don't know how (i know technically how - clove oil etc) i could bring myself to do it. he just seemed like he was really suffering and it was no life for him.

I know its going to take a very long to time for him to recover. Just having him sit in the corner of the tank all day and all night looking all depressed was horrible... he wasn't even bothered about food... which he wasn't getting fed a lot either! 

But yes he is getting better, much more alert and starting to be a bit more himself :2thumb: or in his case he's the :devil: little sod!


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> LOL he gave me an educational talk about chlorine and how i should put the fish tank water in the fridge for an hour to get rid of the chlorine before putting it in!


Nobody follow this advice! it is a very very bad idea for chlorine removal. I don't even know why he would recomend it? it will not remove all Cl from the water, and you will need to get it VERY cold for it to even be effective.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

miss_mystra said:


> pfffffffft
> 
> 
> Thames Water called me back and a very nice man made me feel like a pleb with a sick fairground goldfish in a bowl.
> ...


Sorry but I'd be more inclined to trust his reading, test kits are notoriously unreliable.

I'm sorry but I've only skimmed the thread, I'll have a proper read and see if I can help.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Ok, my thoughts.

Doodle's idea of plants growing out of the tank is a really good one.

Buy a shower caddy (has suction cups, little holes in, designed for holding shampoo bottles ect) then stick this just below the water level. Fill it with substrate (cat littler is awesome and cheap) and then plonk some bog plants in. Peace Lilly is perfect, readily available and super cheap. This will take care of your nitrate removal and you don't have to worry about providing co2 or too many nutrients.


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Ok, my thoughts.
> 
> Doodle's idea of plants growing out of the tank is a really good one.
> 
> Buy a shower caddy (has suction cups, little holes in, designed for holding shampoo bottles ect) then stick this just below the water level. Fill it with substrate (cat littler is awesome and cheap) and then plonk some bog plants in. Peace Lilly is perfect, readily available and super cheap. This will take care of your nitrate removal and you don't have to worry about providing co2 or too many nutrients.



that sounds pretty cool actually  would not have thought of doing it like that so cheers!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Doodle said:


> Nobody follow this advice! it is a very very bad idea for chlorine removal. I don't even know why he would recomend it? it will not remove all Cl from the water, and you will need to get it VERY cold for it to even be effective.



so it's defo wrong advice then, i wasn't sure it was more the fact that its quite a lot of water in the fridge that made me laugh... i wasn't actually sure that chilling water and letting it sit wouldn't work either... kinda guessed it wouldn't... stupid Thames Water idiots!


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Can we see your tank pleeeeeeasseee?


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Can we see your tank pleeeeeeasseee?



http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/aquatics-pictures/758175-precious-pedro-together-last.html


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Ughhh that snail ughhhhh!!!!!


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Ughhh that snail ughhhhh!!!!!


:lol2:


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> so it's defo wrong advice then, i wasn't sure it was more the fact that its quite a lot of water in the fridge that made me laugh... i wasn't actually sure that chilling water and letting it sit wouldn't work either... kinda guessed it wouldn't... stupid Thames Water idiots!


it would.. but it is far from ideal practice! :lol2:


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## miss_mystra (Jun 24, 2010)

the latest...


invested in some java moss, seeing as the moss balls haven't been eaten by anyone... also going to that thing with the plants and the shower caddy

Got the nitrate sponge squished into the Ehiem, bought that fluval filter media that reduces nitrate in a tub for the U2. The hood is kept open, and i'm doing my usual weekly water changes (i was naughty and missed one last week due to busting my thumb/hand so i could carry the buckets  ) The testing shows the nitrates to be around the 80 mark, much better than the 120+ before. Once the moss etc takes a hold it will hopefully stabilise and come down some more.

Things are getting better, Pedro is improving, slowly as expected but he's getting better  Precious had a funny moment or two a couple weeks ago but she's fine now. Pedro's still having moments where he 'stands on his head' in the corner but at the top, but he's not doing it anywhere near as much as before. He had a touch of white spot that's cleared up almost, and a few injuries from trying to do his head stands on one of the spikier plastic plants (since gone!). i reckon the little sod's going to be ok in time 

Thanks for all the help and advice  (except Thames Water who can bugger off)


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## Christie_ZXR (May 14, 2011)

really glad to hear the good news hun! Hope he makes a full recovery soon


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

miss_mystra said:


> the latest...
> 
> 
> invested in some java moss, seeing as the moss balls haven't been eaten by anyone... also going to that thing with the plants and the shower caddy
> ...


HUZZAH! :2thumb:


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

pleased its looking good for you, i hope it carries on that way :2thumb:


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