# Dual Canopy - What percentage UVB for Whites Tree Frogs



## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

I have just bought one of the Exo Terra Dual canopy tops, which takes two Repti Glo Flourescent tubes.

I have been using a 5.0 Repti Glo in my current canopy and don't know whether I should use 2 x 2.0 Rept Glo or 1 x 5.0 and 1 x 2.0?

I don't want to overdo the UVB but neither do I want to give too little. 

Is anyone using one of these canopies for their Whites Tree Frogs, and if so what combination of Repti Glo's do you use?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Despite all the recent info (and Arcadiajohns' promotion! :lol2 I'm still a bit hesitant to use the higher-rated tubes for 'phibs- but lots of current Whites' keepers swear by them. The key seems to be fairly heavy planting, which gives a whole range of exposure, and the frogs get to choose which areas they use.


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

I'd go with a 5% and something like what Steve suggested for the plants.

Is it the dual strip canopy with the halogen in the middle ??
I was tempted by one of those the other day at a MASSIVELY reduced price (£44.99 from Dobbies in Ponteland for either 45cm or 60cm one) but decided for my Mediterranean tree frogs it wasn't worth the extra £20 and hassle of different bulbs to the rest of my compact flourescent canopies and the halogen wouldn't be any use for them.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

hi yeah its the one with the halogen in the middle with two strips as well, its a amazing top. were using a seperate top it at the minute with a 5 uv in it. i got it off a company on ebay for £43. thanks for the advice


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Contrary to the beliefs and claims of some, there is still absolutely no actual solid proof that White's tree frogs even need UV-B lighting at all when using decent supplements in their diet. The evidence to the contrary is entirely anecdotal, in other words it's opinion.

My White's for example get at max about 2% UV-B if that from a Narva biovital T5HO, the light passing through Optiwhite glass.

Oh and before anybody chips in claiming that plants need UV, no really they don't. lol

Ade


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

They are sometimes found in open forests and urban environments ect

Does that mean they'd be adapted to a high UV index exposure?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Marwolaeth said:


> They are sometimes found in open forests and urban environments ect
> 
> Does that mean they'd be adapted to a high UV index exposure?


No more than a nocturnal house gecko.... Think about it, they're a nocturnal frog that I doubt lies out in the open during the day when it's asleep. 

Ade


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Ade,

Your right and you hit the nail on the head. Like most deeply crepuscular species and those rare true nocturnes these are commonly found lying about during the day. The most recent thought is though that you certainly don't have to be awake to benefit fully from the D3 cycle. It is looking more and more likely however still not proven that these species do indeed have a symbiosis with the sun like most other living things.

We are conducting at the moment secret trials at zoos and institutions on the effect of UVB on both amphibs and inverts,

For instance we know lots of tarantulas actively bask in high potency UVB, we can see them doing it. We just can't prove why :blush: .....yet.

I firmly believe the same is for amphibs. I met the head of herps at ZSL last week and he undertook a huge task a while ago of uv boosting and measuring bone mass by x-Ray on loads of commonly kept species. From what I understand they did find interesting changes in many species. I just need to get them to let me have a copy of the study now:whistling2: I can confirm all of the frogs and toads st ZSL are kept under uv now. Most if not all under T5s. 

So I really hope that as researchers and home researchers (my most valued source of info by the way) we can really get to grips with this topic and find out once and for all, what is effected and why and the best way to provide the energy.

I think if we all work together we could do it in 5-10 years.

You all know I am very passionate about my studies and getting animal keeping at the very best level. Some things we will get right, some wrong. I guess as long as we moving forward together as keepers that's the important thing.

My 2p will be however on the question asked that the% of lamp required cannot be dictated by species alone. It is totally down to the distance (gradient) between lamp and animal at the basking point and then as Ade points out taking any barriers like mesh into account. You then look the wild index of the COO and re-create that in a usable way. If that is just 2 hours early morn and 2 hours in the evening then fair enough.

Would I use a 12% T5 for amphibs? Yep! Actually I do....but only because the animals require a certain index at a certain distance and their is a mesh in the way  so the higher the viv the more energy will be required to get the index that you want to re-create at a certain height.

John. 





Wolfenrook said:


> No more than a nocturnal house gecko.... Think about it, they're a nocturnal frog that I doubt lies out in the open during the day when it's asleep.
> 
> Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

REDDEV1L said:


> I'd go with a 5% and something like what Steve suggested for the plants.
> 
> Is it the dual strip canopy with the halogen in the middle ??
> I was tempted by one of those the other day at a MASSIVELY reduced price (£44.99 from Dobbies in Ponteland for either 45cm or 60cm one) but decided for my Mediterranean tree frogs it wasn't worth the extra £20 and hassle of different bulbs to the rest of my compact flourescent canopies and the halogen wouldn't be any use for them.





bobo1 said:


> hi yeah its the one with the halogen in the middle with two strips as well, its a amazing top. were using a seperate top it at the minute with a 5 uv in it. i got it off a company on ebay for £43. thanks for the advice


I'm using this in my golden treefrog tank with two T8 tubes supplied by John- one 5% and one plant grow thingy, plus a standard halogen bulb. To be honest, the jury is still out on the benefits.


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

I have a Arcadia 45cm canopy that came with a 12% bulb will this be to powerful for my whites tree frogs? Can I buy a 5% bulb from somewhere? it said it was a T5 canopy but it dosent have a T5 tube it's more like a compact thing


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

I have been breeding White's on and off for just over 20 years now, and am just in the process of 'drying out' my Aussie White's that were CB in the United States. I have, in the past, reared the resulting offspring with just vitamin/mineral supplementation (would still see MBD frequently), vit/mins plus powertwists/blacklights (much better results from memory), and finally, vit/mins plus todays quality UVB lighting (in the past 10% but in recent times 12%). The last method has produced the most healthy frogs by far - and logic tells me that this is no coincidence. I've found more anurans than not appreciate and gain much benefit when given the option of UVB lighting, I have been saying this for years and years but hey ho.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Have a look in the lizard forum some people dont think that its necessary for lizards.:saddisappointed with T5s)

The amount of u.v.b. emmitted by tubes is very little in comparison with natural sunlight.


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

So the 12% won't do any harm as long as there is lots of cover? Because I have an Arcadia canopy for UV and an exo one for plant grow bulbs because I want to do a planted viv for my whites


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Galactic Mushroom said:


> So the 12% won't do any harm as long as there is lots of cover? Because I have an Arcadia canopy for UV and an exo one for plant grow bulbs because I want to do a planted viv for my whites


*If* I understand it correctly, Johns' theory is that if you have heavy plant cover, the frogs get to choose whether to settle in higher or lower UV areas- the key is giving them that choice by planting heavily in the first place.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

HI Ron,

As usual your right!


From our point of view its all about light and shade! in specific the "light and shade method" 

This simply means providing a targeted amount of power that is similar to that which would be experianced in the wild per species over a targeted area. We then match this with cool and shade and allow the aniamls to behave as they would in the wild and select and choose thier own level of exposure.

We certainly dont agree with lighting the whole enclosure at upper index. 

Its all about self regualtion for us.

Remember that a mesh top does reduce the amount of light and therfore UV gettng through the mesh into the viv. The worst reduction that I have ever tested was an 80% reduction in light when compared to the bare tube.

So through a mesh and with good planting and as part of the light and shad method it is fine.

Good call Ron!

John




Ron Magpie said:


> *If* I understand it correctly, Johns' theory is that if you have heavy plant cover, the frogs get to choose whether to settle in higher or lower UV areas- the key is giving them that choice by planting heavily in the first place.


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

Great advice thanks guys I had a 2% exo compact on mine and the frogs would group up under it I dread to think how little UV was actually passing through. Will provide lots of cover then, anyone know any suitable plants that can stand up to 3 Whites there not full grown yet


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Galactic Mushroom said:


> Great advice thanks guys I had a 2% exo compact on mine and the frogs would group up under it I dread to think how little UV was actually passing through. Will provide lots of cover then, anyone know any suitable plants that can stand up to 3 Whites there not full grown yet


Pothos, Philodendron, rubber plants, umbrella trees- basically the toughies. :lol2:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

been wondering this myself, toss up between the compact and dual canopy options. would a dual canopy with 2 x 2.0 be okay ?


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## Galactic Mushroom (Mar 8, 2013)

I have a 5.0 and 2.0 compact in my Canopy at the moment because 5.0 is quite dim but provides more UV and the 2.0 is nice and bright


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