# This cage ok for rats?



## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

Will the bar spacing on these types of cages be too big to keep adult male rats in? They're not huge rats. 

Indoor Guinea pig/rabbit/tortoise Cage., This cage is in good condition ... Hassocks for sale in West Sussex, South East :: Clickpets


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

If that's a pic of the actual cage, not good because it has a plastic base which rats will chew a hole through in no time at all. Bar spacing is likely to be too wide too and result in escapes or injury. For an idea of what you should be aiming for have a look at the Rat cages and Degu cages at johnhopewell.co.uk/


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I use one like that for my elderly and slightly unstable on their feet rats.
My male deaf and blind in one eye rat was in it for a while and a couple of my females when they got too unsteady to be climbing about.
They're not good in terms of levels to investigate and because the lid opens right up you can't readily hand things from the top.


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

Ok thanks I thought so.
I got a cage already but it's getting difficult to clean out and I'm looking for a new one ASAP that I can ideally open at the top to clean easier


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Rach1 said:


> I use one like that for my elderly and slightly unstable on their feet rats.
> My male deaf and blind in one eye rat was in it for a while and a couple of my females when they got too unsteady to be climbing about.
> They're not good in terms of levels to investigate and because the lid opens right up you can't readily hand things from the top.


I agree about levels. Regarding chewing (gnawing) it's sometimes a matter of pot luck. Consider for example at my 3 Syrian Hamsters all housed separately in Savic Hamster Heavens. Two of them don't chew at all but the third chews so much I've had to patch the base twice. Regarding rat cages I think it's generally recommended that they be housed in steel wire and steel solid base cages. Some keepers go even further than that and rat-proof the room the cage is kept in.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree about the chewing being pot luck. I'm now on my fourth pair of rats in my Tom Rat Cage, which has a plastic base and none of them have ever chewed it.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

feorag said:


> I agree about the chewing being pot luck. I'm now on my fourth pair of rats in my Tom Rat Cage, which has a plastic base and none of them have ever chewed it.


Tom Rat with plastic base and powder coated bars breaks the two main rules but if it works for your rats that's all that matters.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

Bar spacing is definately too wide. We had a young doe in a zoozone cage that had bars an inch apart and she was able to squeeze out quite easily. Littlepetwarehouse has a lot of cages at fairly reasonable prices.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Spideypidey said:


> Tom Rat with plastic base and powder coated bars breaks the two main rules but if it works for your rats that's all that matters.


Actually I was advised to get powder coated bars cos bare metal bars rust badly with the rat's pee.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

feorag said:


> Actually I was advised to get powder coated bars cos bare metal bars rust badly with the rat's pee.


There you are going for durability at the expense of the animal's welfare: The powder coating can be bitten off and ingested or breathed into the animals lungs. The latter causes coughing as they try to expel it.

But personally I'm not at all innocent since the cages I use for my hamsters have powder-coated bars. But there is no alternative which brings me to my last point. There are proper cages for rats and other larger rodents which are all metal which if properly maintained will last a very long time. But if keepers persist in buying essentially _toy_ plastic cages the proper cages will disappear due to lack of demand.

It may surprise you to learn that an all metal - stainless steel - cage can be bought for as little as £20 more than a toy plastic cage of an equivalent size.


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

To the op, my rats were kept in a cage exactly the same, I just covered the cage part with mesh to stop any escaping through the bars, lasted ages, now mine are in a huge glass tank as well as cages, as ive used the base of the old cage as a bath fof my boscs.. generally ive found that as long as the bases have no grooves or little ledges and are smooth there is nowhere for them to get their teeth into to start chewing.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Spideypidey said:


> There you are going for durability at the expense of the animal's welfare: The powder coating can be bitten off and ingested or breathed into the animals lungs. The latter causes coughing as they try to expel it.
> i saw this and for about an hour debated whether to reply... But in the end wanted to establish whether you are insinuating that Feorag has. T got her pets interests at heart or whether it's just bad wording on your part?
> If you are insinuating that Feorag has put her pets interests second place to durability or whatever then I must correct you.
> Feorag has her animals interests at the very base of her heart and does so much for animal welfare.
> ...


No it wouldn't surprise us as we're not blithering idiots!

As a side point, I have always used cages with coated bars and all of my rats past and present have lived well in to their second year with several being only a month or so off being three.
The one cage I did get that was metal was a bloody nightmare and rusted horrifically despite my best efforts to ensure the rat pee was cleaned fully.
In the end I chucked it as it was just awful and wasn't safe for the rats to be in.


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

Rach1 said:


> No it wouldn't surprise us as we're not blithering idiots!
> 
> As a side point, I have always used cages with coated bars and all of my rats past and present have lived well in to their second year with several being only a month or so off being three.
> The one cage I did get that was metal was a bloody nightmare and rusted horrifically despite my best efforts to ensure the rat pee was cleaned fully.
> In the end I chucked it as it was just awful and wasn't safe for the rats to be in.


have to agree with you, I thought feorag wss being insulted and bit my tongue, I cant work out whether the person posting is just a kid reading everything from a book and then typing what they are reading, as some of their posts in other sections are a bit to script like, or if thry are just one of those young adults who think they know everything. I to have used just metal cages and agree they are a nightmare to use.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I have no idea either but I couldn't just sit back whilst someone even vaguely insinuated that Eileen didn't put her pets first.
I'm sure Eileen won't be in the least bit fussed if spideypider was being rude and will possibly find it all somewhat amusing but given that he/she has only been here all of a month it is perhaps advisable that they hold their counsel for the time being.
Opinions regarding cages are each to their own and of course we all have our own thoughts but don't be calling someone whom you barely know about.
But then I usually wouldn't say boo to a goose so what would I know eh?


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Rach1 said:


> No it wouldn't surprise us as we're not blithering idiots!
> 
> As a side point, I have always used cages with coated bars and all of my rats past and present have lived well in to their second year with several being only a month or so off being three.
> The one cage I did get that was metal was a bloody nightmare and rusted horrifically despite my best efforts to ensure the rat pee was cleaned fully.
> In the end I chucked it as it was just awful and wasn't safe for the rats to be in.


I'm not insinuating anything about any keeper The problem is manufacturers who supply cages which are unsuitable for the animal to be housed in them and that applies to most caged rodents. 

Look for example at the tiny modular cages which are sold for Syrian Hamsters which are way too small even for mice. Rabbits need to be kept at least in pairs in large hutches with even larger runs and yet solitary rabbits are kept in small cages without runs. Gerbils and hamsters are kept in so-called "Gerbilariums" where the main floor above the digging base is nothing more than wire mesh which causes Tumblefoot. And the list goes on and on.

The design of some metal cages is not perfect either: The classic design is of wire mesh (not wire netting) or bars on all four sides and the top and bottom with a slide out deep tray _above_ the wire base providing a solid floor and a means of placing substrate. But in some the slide out tray is _below_ the wire bottom again resulting in tumblefoot and merely functioning as a way of catching waste.

Glass and clear plastic tanks often lack proper air-circulation resulting in excess humidity. The clear glass is an invisible barrier which causes frustration and stress which in turn causes wet-tail in very young hamsters.

My point about not having an alternative to powder-coated bars was missed. At one time there was an alternative, even all metal cages, for hamsters but now there isn't. I'm stuck with using mainly plastic multi-coloured toy cages with a powder-coated wire top. The fact that such cages for hamsters are multi-coloured screams out that they are made for the owners and not the hamsters - hamsters don't see colours.

I'm not denying that toy plastic cages are convenient for cleaning but whether they are durable is a matter of debate. The Internet is littered with accounts of rodents chewing and gnawing plastic cage bottoms and even escaping as a result. And rats are probably the most effective gnawers of them all.


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

Thankyou. Mine are currently in a powder coated cage with a plastic base as that's what I was advised too, and also mine are not chewers at all. 
I do actually have a cage in mind from the Littlepetwarehouse site but the bars are narrow at only 8mm and I'm wondering if I can even get their water bottle spout to fit through! 
I got a medium size bottle is say but the spout is quite thick. 

So this site is recommended then? As Ive never used it before.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Hiya, 
Yes I've bought cages from there and they are fine Hun.
Just look for a water bottle with a thinner spout or hang it inside the cage.

Which cage are you thinking of getting?


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

Thanks. I can't remember the name now but it's one that looks like a castle. I keep the water bottle on the outside anyway but I can't find any thin spout ones in my shop. I'll hafta get that online too


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I've just had a look, and it I were you and that was my budget I'd go for the cage below as it's a solid cube shape meaning it's easier to hang stuff from the top and ha that little bit extra room
If your budget can go a bit higher can I recommend the hambley cage a few pictures up... It comes empty but is basically a big old cube ready to fill... Plus it's on a trolley which helps with storage.
I put Lino on the floor when I kept my rats in it, and added loads of extra levels, branches and hidey holes, boxes etc.


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## BlackRose (Jul 8, 2007)

You saw the pink roof one you mean I was going to get? My budget is around that at most. Is this the other you meant? 

Rat Cages : Little Friends Narrow Bar Hamster / Rat Cage : www.LittlePetWarehouse.co.uk - The UK's Small Pet Specialists - The place to buy amazing products for your pet online

I like the castle one as the while roof unclips which is what I need. The one on the link I gave you says that the roof comes off? But on the pic there's only a little door on top.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Spideypidey said:


> There you are going for durability at the expense of the animal's welfare: The powder coating can be bitten off and ingested or breathed into the animals lungs. The latter causes coughing as they try to expel it.


Thank you Rach and Mitsi for vouching for me. I would have liked to laugh at this if it hadn't come over as quite so offensive and patronising.

I did *not* go for durability over animal welfare and I would *never* penny pinch on anything that my pets needed for their welfare.

When I got rats for the first time I took advice from a lot of rat owners and breeders, who had been keeping rats for many years as well as various rat sites, who all told me that coated bars were better because of the rust factor on uncoated bars. That was the reason why I chose the Tom Rat. I only keep pairs or trios when one of the old ones die, so the cage is a good size for them and I'm now on my 4th pairs and nobody has had any problems.

Nowhere did I read that plastic or pvc coating was dangerous, so could you point me to this information please?


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

This guy seems to be on a roll with his offensive remarks. The degu chronicles thread in exotics pet is quite a read.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

feorag said:


> Thank you Rach and Mitsi for vouching for you. I would have liked to laugh at this if it hadn't come over as quite so offensive and patronising.
> 
> I did *not* go for durability over animal welfare and I would *never* penny pinch on anything that my pets needed for their welfare.
> 
> ...


btw I made a mistake in a previous post when I said "Stainless Steel". I did of course mean to say "Galvanised Steel".

We're considering powder coating and much of the information about that comes from bird keeping, aviaries, bird cages etc. where powder coating originates. You can probably find the information easily by Googling it yourself. In fact the best bar coating is baked enamel but as far as I know that doesn't exist and anyway is likely to be very expensive. But you know, if a budgie is going to damage a powder coating what is a rodent going to do to it.

Basically the remedy for chipped powder coating is to rub it over with a scourer or steel wool to remove dust and flakes but of course not with the animal inside the cage when you do it.

The metal underneath the powder coating is almost always wrought iron so when the powder coating comes off there is a worse problem of rust than with galvanised steel.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Ok, so I did some research of my own...
And found this...


I recommend making sure the cage is powder coated rather than galvanized, as powder coating better protects against rust, doesn't trap odors, and is easier to clean. (Some say bare galvanized wire can also cause zinc poisoning if chewed on).

This one is off Rat Chatter a forum specifically for rat owners...

Galvanized Wire: Although a sturdy construction and makes for a nice cage, what we don’t like is how the rat urine can get right into the wire. This type of cage would need frequent cleanings of all the wire.
Powder Coated Wire/Metal: There are some fantastic cages out there that are now Powder Coated, this is our choice for a Rat Cage, they are low maintenance, very appealing to the eye and virtually indestructible.


This next quote is from the shunamite rat website a well respected and well know rat breeder with many years experience


I didn't like the old style Jenny because of problems with access and uncoated bars which aged quickly and held smell, but the Jenny has now had a complete makeover and, whilst i haven't owned one, on paper at least it looks great. It is a similar size to the Tom (W80cm x D50cm x H79.5cm), and now has a large front door as well as a good sized opening in the roof. The chrome frame improves it's robustness and the bars are now powder coated, making them easier to clean thoroughlly.


Another one...
Although they offer both galvanized and powder-coated versions of their cages, the powder-coated is recommended, as chewing galvanized wire can make a rat sick.

Oh look another...

The best wire cages are powder-coated or have the metal otherwise coated. This protects the metal against the corrosive urine and makes the cage easier to clean, and also protects the rats' feet from the abrasive metal.

You may also be interested to know that the parrot society doesn't advocate using galvanised mesh or wire as it causes zinc poisoning to parrots when they chew...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Thank you Rach. I checked out a lot of those sites, including Alison's who is Shunamite rats. So I bought my cage based on my research and other people's recommendations.


Spideypidey said:


> btw I made a mistake in a previous post when I said "Stainless Steel". I did of course mean to say "Galvanised Steel".


 As far as I'm concerned you made a mistake assuming that I chose the cage I bought for durability without any concern for my rats, which was totally untrue.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Some more...
This first one is off the Rat Forum...

galvanized is basically just bare metal... steel to be particular. it's dipped in zinc (why it is so toxic to birds) to prevent it from corroding. the acidity in urine wears that down and causes it to rust, corrode, and absorb odor. powder coating is a vinyl or other plastic-like substance that covers the metal. it's not spray paint, it is chemically bound to the metal so it is very hard to chip, and it is flexible. 

This is off Tailfeathers a bird themed forum.

Galvanized wire is bad for birds...the galvanizing materials contain zinc and zinc is toxic to birds.


Then I found this entire piece on it...


Many bird owners have wondered about building their own cage at one time or another. I'm writing this to share the knowledge I've gained about zinc and the process of galvanizing.
Galvanized means iron (steel) coated with zinc. If it is coated with something else then it is anodized or plated. Galvanized implies zinc. The two most common methods of galvanizing are electroplate and hot dipped. Sheet metal is usually electroplate. This is a thin shiny finish with a criss cross, crystal looking pattern, like frost on a window. Wire is usually hot dipped, it's a thicker coating and dull in appearance.

What is cheap and easy to find at the hardware store or home improvement store, is that screen looking stuff that comes in various sizes. It is called hardware cloth, and it is a grucky hot dip. Look at it closely and you will see lots of "extra" particles and little globs of *solid zinc* stuck to it. It works fine for rabbits and chickens. Rabbits and chickens don't climb all over their cages with their beak. A sharp little conure beak can break off one of those little globs, and they are small enough to be swallowed.

So how dangerous is zinc. Well, here in the northwest where it rains a lot in some places, it is possible to have an entire roof covered with moss. So a simple trick is to take a strip of sheet metal, only a few inches wide, and tack it onto the top of the roof. The teeny tiny amount of zinc that washes off when it rains, kills everything on the roof.

Also I might mention, when I was learning how to work with metal, the shop was well equipped with lots of machinery and tools and welders. There were many ways a person could be injured and we routinely inhaled nasty fumes from the welders. Out of the entire shop, my macho teacher with over 15 years teaching experience, really only went out of his way to warn us of one thing........ zinc! We were told to never get a torch anywhere near a piece of galvanized, even with the exhaust fan running!

Now having said that, anyone who is planning to build some breeder cages or an aviary will probably still be considering using some type of galvanized wire, because that tends to be what is available to work with. Hardware cloth should never be used. It is too easy for a bird to break off one of those little leftover globs that are still stuck to the wire. Many breeders use what is called galvanized `after' weld wire. This is a heavier wire and doesn't have the "globs" stuck to it.

There is still a problem with the after weld wire though, and that is rust. (Of course zinc rusts, it just keeps the iron underneath from oxidizing.) And any wire exposed to the outdoors will rust faster than an indoor cage. As it oxidizes it will look duller and duller and eventually will start to turn whitish in color. You can touch a piece of galvanized metal that has been left outside, and have the oxidation come off on your finger in one pass. If it comes off on your finger that easily, a bird can lick it off while climbing on the cage. Breeders scrub their cages with vinegar and water a couple times a year. The scrubbing washes off some of the old rust and the vinegar somehow retards new rust, but can't stop it completely. And of course the vinegar wash won't last long if the cage is left outside.

I have heard of people sending their galvanized cages to a shop that does a powder coating type of paint job. I don't know how well that works, zinc tends to be a poor paint primer. There is also such a thing as paintable zinc, but I have only seen it on sheetmetal and I don't know what was done to it to make it "paintable". The best situation would be to take the raw iron wire in to be nickel plated, and forget about zinc and paint altogether.

Generally speaking, the safest metals are what you find in your kitchen. Stainless steel is a hard alloy (with nickel) and is the best. Iron is OK, it just makes a mess when it rusts. And aluminum is OK, except with tomatos and acidic foods. You may also have copper cookware. But the copper metal is on the outside, for heat conduction and appearance, not on the inside. However, copper is relatively safe since most homes have copper pipe for drinking water. Something like a copper bell should be safe for a bird. But if you have ever seen those ornamental copper cages with the heavy green patina (chemically induced), those are meant for mechanical birds, not real ones.

A mild case of metal poisoning can "depress" the nervous system. Wouldn't that make you feel irritable? uncomfortable? unhappy, harder to think or sleep? all of the above? Is that how you want one of your best friends to feel? And a serious case can cause death. It is my opinion that zinc is as bad as lead and mercury.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

btw I made a mistake in a previous post when I said "Stainless Steel". I did of course mean to say "Galvanised Steel".


No you were right the first time, actually stainless steel would be a better choice for cages as it is a hard alloy.

I keep birds, including a tiel and a parrotlet, both in coated cages and I am sure they are in the best place


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Yes, stainless steel exists for a lot of cages but is expensive and that's why powder coating was introduced to bird cages after chrome plating was discontinued.

Yes there is zinc on galvanised wire but whether that makes it to cages is debateable. It all depends on how new it is and whether it has been pre-treated to remove the excess zinc - you can do it yourself with vinegar.

Powder coatings also contain zinc, more on pre-1970 processes but still zinc in post-1970 processes. But the main objection to powder coated bars is that once damaged it flakes off and creates dust and particles. If eaten animals are likely to get an intake of zinc which is greater than licking galvanised wire. In short, powder coating is not made to be eaten.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating: Run your finger along the powder coated bars.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

The fact still remains, which ever way you wish to spin it, there are a great many breeders of rats, birds etc out there that do not recommend galvanised 'ANYTHING' for bird or rat cages.
The use of vinegar to 'remove' the zinc levels is generally accepted to be of little use and the newer coating techniques are now considered a much better option as the zinc levels are much much lower.
Plus if you clean your cage properly and with due care and attention you should see little to no flaking.

As it is, I'll be sticking to my coated cages, and have had some of these many years with no flaking of any coating. I guess you were right when you said that the more you pay the better the cage and the less likely it is to fail you either way... Also the need to take good care of it whatever the material and always check for damage and general wear and tear.
: victory:


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Specifically on bar chewing, this is something I've looked into in some detail. There are various explanations including boredom (lack of toys, activities) and the need to wear down teeth due to the lack of hard substances in the cage or in the food. According to my experience none of the explanations hold up. As far as as I'm concerned its something they do to escape and if they make an impression in the bars they carry on chewing in the same place and make extra attempts in other places.

It's a similar situation with plastic base chewing. They do it in an effort to escape. Plastic base chewing is so prevalent there are various methods suggested to discourage it such as lemon juice. There are even commercial sprays to discourage it. But none of the remedies work.

Also in my experience chewers eventually give up and stop chewing but changing the housing can cause them to start chewing again or rodents who were not chewers may become chewers. The reason why I patch the base of my chewer's cage instead of buying a new cage or base.

My last post in this thread. I hope I have been helpful or at least provided food for thought.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Not really... 
But you have managed to upset a very much loved and respected member of the forum by making fleeting remarks about their care of their animals.

This thread and your replies on the degu thread have made me really cross actually... It's not often I get cross over a forum but your posts are so condescending and rude....

I'm suspecting you are merely trolling the threads now.. Just to get a rise, and that you have!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well my rat cage has been in permanent use for 5 years and the rats in there now are my 4th pair. I usually introduce another pair when the original pair are about a year and a half, so for a while there will be 4 in there, then 3 then 2 for a while, so pretty busy and none of them have ever chewed the bars or the plastic base.


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Rach1 said:


> Not really...
> But you have managed to upset a very much loved and respected member of the forum by making fleeting remarks about their care of their animals.
> 
> This thread and your replies on the degu thread have made me really cross actually... It's not often I get cross over a forum but your posts are so condescending and rude....
> ...


Ok one last post in this thread.

Would it be better if I agreed with everyone all the time then? No I'm not a troll. It's just that I feel very strongly about a few things.

In fact I did hold back on a last contribution to the thread because I thought I was being too argumentative but here it is: Scare stories of poisonous galvanised wire essentially emanate from bird-keepers who have built flights from untreated wire which is essentially intended for fences and not for housing animals and birds. But even so, the zinc if not pre-treated eventually disappears due to weathering and aging.

Most definitely my last in this thread now


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I've used both powder-coated and bare galvanized wire, and not had any problems (poisonings or flaking off)with either cage. None of mine were chewers though; well actually one degu was when I got him, he wasn't in a powder coated one, and he soon stopped with more space and more than things to chew on than were provided in the pet-shop, he never got ill from it.
I did find the cage that was square wire and not powder coated, a complete nightmare to clean though.


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

When I first bought my rats they were in a non coated, plastic based cage. As someone wrote it was a nightmare to clean, especially with the girls having been so active and climbing up the bars. 
It had 2 plastic "draws" at the bottom, which was supposed to make cleaning easier, but one of them ended up chewing the bottom. It also had wooden shelves and "furniture" which was a nightmare for smells.
I then moved them into a coated bar larger cage with a solid plastic base ([email protected]) and that was a lot better. There was enough space to put lost of climbing opportunities and hammocks in and a lot easier to clean the bars. 
Mind you, they weren't big chewers. The occasional nibble on their toys and Treacle had the habbit of ripping up their "bird tunnel" hammock, but they never chewed the cage bars. *God, I miss them*.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Spideypidey said:


> Ok one last post in this thread.
> 
> Would it be better if I agreed with everyone all the time then? No I'm not a troll. It's just that I feel very strongly about a few things.
> 
> ...


There's an old saying "it's not what you say it's the way that you say it". You didn't offer advice per se you made assumptions, so you came over as arrogant and condescending, which on a forum comes over worse.

You're not the only person who has had to 'hold back' on some of the things you read on this forum. You can offer advice and be honest without coming over the way you did.


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