# deformed gecko. MUST LOOK (piccs)



## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

hiya
two days this fello hatched and i was shit scared when i opened the box.. its was omg.
what wrong with it
one eye is normal and one eye is like when u get a ball point pen and dot it on a piece of paper( thats how small it is)
and his head is way out of shape. it has a crocodile head. it has a long nose/mouth...
it can open its month, hasnt feed yet. fort that it wouldnt survive over nite.....
also it has a wide torso near the neck area which u can see in pic one( if u know what i mean)
if anyone know what i should do etc... mush appreciated...


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## a1dzcannon (Aug 1, 2009)

LooL awesome if it does survive would be a unique gecko


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## Adambrogan (Mar 8, 2009)

poor thing! i hope it survives tho  wouldnt mind seeing it when its older!


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

its not awesom?! are you crazy?

it looks like a lack of calcium from the mother to me..
MBD


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## otis (Mar 23, 2009)

MBD poor thing you need to get it to vet


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

It looks like one of those babies that wasn't meant to be, genetics or a mistake during incubation, I think he may need a trip to the vets, sorry


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## aceboidz (Jul 25, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> its not awesom?! are you crazy?
> 
> it looks like a lack of calcium from the mother to me..
> MBD


 
I agree, how can you think that is awesome


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i had one with mild MBD symotoms as a hatchling and i struggled, and i had a bit of experince before hand, i would take vet advise, it could be in pain/die in pain, however it may live an ok life?you need to get it to the vets ASAP







a year / two years on an im still struggling with her.


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## aceboidz (Jul 25, 2008)

If in any way you think it is in pain, I would do the wise thing and ask for it to be put down (if you can with a thing so small)
Poor thing


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## Joe1507 (Aug 11, 2008)

looks very nice will be awesome to see as a adult hope his deforimitys dont affect it in any negative way. and I hope its not mbd or anything which it likely is


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## aceboidz (Jul 25, 2008)

Joe1507 said:


> looks very nice will be awesome to see as a adult hope his deforimitys dont affect it in any negative way.


Not awesome!


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## sarasin (Dec 8, 2007)

Agree let a vet have a look and decide if it can have a decent quality of life.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

aceboidz said:


> If in any way you think it is in pain, I would do the wise thing and ask for it to be put down (if you can with a thing so small)
> Poor thing


you can



Joe1507 said:


> looks very nice will be awesome to see as a adult hope his deforimitys dont affect it in any negative way. and I hope its not mbd or anything which it likely is


im not to sure (in an honest opinion) if it will survive, if its right for it to do so..you dont know how deformed it is inside etc


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## kirstyink (Mar 6, 2009)

what is with this whole "awesome" thing its not at all and why the hell will it look awesome when its older IF it survives.


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## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

If its starts eating etc and seems ok, as long as it doesn't seem in pain there's no reason it cant live to a ripe old age. I know a few ppl who have hunch back beardies cos they got stuck coming out the egg etc.
That small eye probably wont work tho so be prepared that if it does survive, its gonna need a lot of special care
xx


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## quadrapop (Sep 20, 2008)

why are people saying "it looks very nice" and "awesome". Its a shame its deformed. definately vet advice but if it can eat on its own then theres hope for it but it definately needs calcium. It might be best to put it out its misery though if its not going to have a quality of life.


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## aceboidz (Jul 25, 2008)

Geckogirl_88 said:


> If its starts eating etc and seems ok, as long as it doesn't seem in pain there's no reason it cant live to a ripe old age. I know a few ppl who have hunch back beardies cos they got stuck coming out the egg etc.
> That small eye probably wont work tho so be prepared that if it does survive, its gonna need a lot of special care
> xx


I second that


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

OP do you have any experinece with ''special'' reptiles?


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> it looks like a lack of calcium from the mother to me.. MBD


ditto and as you said there's no telling how badly it may be deformed internally 



Saedcantas said:


> It looks like one of those babies that wasn't meant to be, genetics or a mistake during incubation, I think he may need a trip to the vets, sorry


I agree ~ it looks like it may well be a case of the kindest thing being the vets.



kirstyink said:


> what is with this whole "awesome" thing its not at all and why the hell will it look awesome when its older IF it survives.


most definately agree with kirstyink ..... the possible suffering that this little one may have is not awesome ~ far from it :bash:


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## aceboidz (Jul 25, 2008)

I just hope you make the right decision xsmithx2 ; )


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

hiya all thanks for all the comments

i am going to see if it does eat first. as its only 1 or 2 days old... as they dont normally eat till bout 3-4 days after hatch..

but if it is in pain/ destress i have to say which i wounldnt want to do is put it down..  

i did notice that on the bottom of the egg it had a brown spot on it,, when it hatched then i looked under the egg and saw it... dont know if that was anything to do with it or just a mark on the egg....


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

xsmithx2 said:


> hiya all thanks for all the comments
> 
> i am going to see if it does eat first. as its only 1 or 2 days old... as they dont normally eat till bout 3-4 days after hatch..
> 
> ...


i honestly and personally wouldnt leave it 2 or so days...


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

just looked at him/she NOW

he/her is in shed atm.... and is very livey


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

ok ive had 2 born with deformities this yr, one was born with a head so mis-shapen i called in John Merrick, seriously was one ugly ******.

I had to feed it by hand for a while with a syringer full of CCF, vits and nutrients, it was touch and go at one point but, if you look at her now you would never know. seriously no one would be able to tell shes perfect.

The second one, was born with a missing eyelid, her eye covered completely and the other eye closed up, she was hand fed for over a month and at one point she was about to be taken to the vet for sleepies.
Shes now feeding on locusts on her own, the 2nd eye is open most of the time and the bad eye is slowly showing a bit more each day.

my point is what looks bad now may work its way out, a vet will not be able be to do much when shes this small. I would NOT take her to a vet unless she seems in pain as it would most likely be a waste of time.
I would hand feed her for time being if she wont eat. if you feel shes in pain then as said by other take her to the vet. 

I wish you luck and just had to remind everyone that deformities do not mean the end or that shes in pain.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Slurm said:


> I wish you luck and just had to remind everyone that deformities do not mean the end or that shes in pain.



exactly my point, but it does mean ALOT of work.. not for the faint hearted. if this guy cannot keep up with it the gecko will suffer.. it would be better to rehom e or pts if thats the case, not many could do it


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

looking at the pics again and thinking back to my ugly one, she also had a pin eye due to the lumpyness of her head, ill bet £5 with anyone that this will disapear with age just as mine did, but it will require hard work and attn.

I think she may look worse before she gets better.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Slurm said:


> I think she may look worse before she gets better.


agreed custard couldnt walk properly. and now looks near enough 100%


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

yes my 1 ill gecko took as long to feed as my other 30 babies, but it was worth it in the end.


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

how the hell can i get a tiny mouth open if i have to sringe feed him


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

xsmithx2 said:


> how the hell can i get a tiny mouth open if i have to sringe feed him


your vet can show you, i woud adivse to find someone local who can help you or your vet.. or a rescu to help you?


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

1st method is quite friendly, with the syringe put as small drop on her nose and wait for her to lick it off, keep doing this even if she just wipes her nose on the wall/floor, she will eventually get the hint and lick it up.

Now if that dont work i do have another method but its more stressful and should only be used as a last resort, get a business card and put a drop of mixture on the card about 5mm from the edge, hold the gecko and gently push the card into her mouth where the drop is, as the drop hits her nose the mouth is slightly open and goes down into her mouth and throat.

hope that shows you it is possible.: victory:


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

We had an egg attempt to hatch today then it stopped all together, we looked inside and the baby had died and was deformed i guess it died in the struggle to break the egg


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I suspect I am one of a very few people on here who (mostly silently) feel that if you have to syringe feed a seriously deformed hatchling from birth, ethically you really shouldn't be doing it. 

It's selfish enough that we keep these animals as pets because it suits us (Don't get me wrong, I've got a boatload of pets, I'm just under no illusions about it being for any other reason than for my own pleasure) without forcing animals to survive when it just isn't in their best interests. Is it really fair to subject an animal that just wasn't meant to make it, to however many months of syringe feeding and prodding it takes to get it to "100% perfect", You can bet an animal that hatches that badly deformed will never been anything like 100% perfect, whether it looks that way on the outside or not.

I'm not saying that is the answer to this particular case, that is for a Vet to decide, just voicing my general opinions on "special" cases...

Lotte***


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

this will not be a popular post, but i am i no way saying this to upset people or be harsh.

but very very seriuosly what you need to do is have this baby put to sleep and make sure that you don not allow its parents to breed ever again.. some of the things being aloud into the gene pool is awfull and so so bad for the species.


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> I suspect I am one of a very few people on here who (mostly silently) feel that if you have to syringe feed a seriously deformed hatchling from birth, ethically you really shouldn't be doing it.
> 
> It's selfish enough that we keep these animals as pets because it suits us (Don't get me wrong, I've got a boatload of pets, I'm just under no illusions about it being for any other reason than for my own pleasure) without forcing animals to survive when it just isn't in their best interests. Is it really fair to subject an animal that just wasn't meant to make it, to however many months of syringe feeding and prodding it takes to get it to "100% perfect", You can bet an animal that hatches that badly deformed will never been anything like 100% perfect, whether it looks that way on the outside or not.
> 
> ...


you posted this while i was typing, it is exactly what i was trying to say.. although we may fool ourselfs that by keeping it alive we are helping the animal but you realy arnt.. doing so in cases like this is purely human selfishness... 

im not saying never help.. i worked with rescue animals for many years and the most important thing i learnt is when helping is good for/saveing the animal/species and when your only doing it for your own more selfish reasons.. the second should never occur.

ironicaly to do whats best and show real care often means takeing a step back and looking at things more "coldly"


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## katelikesfun (Sep 19, 2007)

I have 1 with quite severe eye deformities. One eyelid lid isn't formed properly so the eye area on one is very exposed. the other eye is almost glued together despite bathing it a lot. Vet thought he may be blind anyway but said if he is feeding (which he bloody well is) then no issues. Obv need extra care, ie keep tank extra clean so no infection can get into the exposed eye. I tend to hand feed with tweezers, he jumps for his food bless. but he can hunt a bit if the food runs right passed him. 

I see no reason for him not being able to live with lots of care, I wish the little one well! 

and on the awesome comments, I'm not in agreement! its like a deformed human being born and someone saying 'oh thats awesome'!!! NOT COOL

K


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

so your saying my healthy and perfect looking leo should of been put down? or left to die
your entitled to an opinion but in my opinion its not a very nice one. should ill children not get medical help ???

by helping these deformed geckos your minimising/stopping their suffering and putting them on a road to recovery.

I suppose it depends on the level of deformity but one like the originaal posters should not mean death.


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

thanks for all you advise...

i will wait and see if it starts eating on it own.. if not i mite start doing the syringe for couple of weeks but if its in pain/ destress i have to think about putting to sleep...


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## naz_pixie (Oct 6, 2008)

i do understand that my opinions are not "nice" or easy to hear but they are logical and completely rational, i dont belive our own emotions should play any part when we are makeing desions about another life...



Slurm said:


> so your saying my healthy and perfect looking leo should of been put down? or left to die* that would be my opinion yes, wether it apears healthy now or not it should not of had to go through what it did to get there. i also see week genetics as seriuosly damageing to a species.
> *
> your entitled to an opinion but in my opinion its not a very nice one. should ill children not get medical help ??? *im not answering this question in full. but no i dont belive overly week genetics should be aloud into the gene pool*
> 
> ...


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

naz_pixie said:


> i do understand that my opinions are not "nice" or easy to hear but they are logical and completely rational, i dont belive our own emotions should play any part when we are makeing desions about another life...



That is what makes us human - emotion. I don't want to get into the argument about ethics. I see where your coming from - but it is a bit radical.

EDIT: For Example, if you or a loved one got ill, which could be treated over time, but there was not 100% of a chance you would survive, would you or your loved one say "Dont treat me/them...It's obvious I/they need to die"


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

not all deformities are genetic, and on my experience i dont think the OP's leo's deformity is, its more likely to be an incubation issue, temp/movement.

can we keep this thread on topic and not turn this into an ethics debate.

I stick to what i say, given good care and attn, this gecko will not suffer and will grow into a normal looking leo. so dont say put it to sleep to someone who is after advice.


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## Herpmad V2.0 (Nov 3, 2006)

no one on here for one min has even taken into acount egg stress these deformatys may have sumt to do with genes or the parents but to me is sounds like mould had taken to the egg which has cause egg stress this is more common that we belive in fact a few years ago ppl were turn temps up and down with boas to produce wired pattens (egg stress recived during the internal incubation period ) and royals and burms, etc but that isnt to say that this animals is fit an well probly the oppersit but let be realistic its a baby gecko and the vet bills will be into £50+ when the most humain way to put a reptiles down is to put it in the freezer as they temp drop they go to sleep and then there boby stops simple every thread on this forum when there is a problem is "take to the vets" most vets just apply wat they no about rats hamster and dogs and cat there are few 100% reptile vet in this country, and then they only no wat they have read during there schooling (my local vet used to give me the treated reptiles to rehabilitate because he didnt no there general care) there are breeders here that have a better understanding of these animals (not saying im one) the vet will not operate on this lizard he may say feed some vits see how it gose but the owner has said he going to try this anyway i say give it a chance if it die it dies if not and it live fine but if your concered about it being in pain you have to be a bit harsh if your going to breed put the poor thing down your self in the most humain way there is 

a needle to this gecko is not going to be pain free


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

its nice to see someone else aware that its more likely to be an outside influence than a genetic issue.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Doesnt look genetic, the deformed baby we had today that didnt survive hatching had a infalted throat and was tiny poor thing - i know its not bad genes as the 4 babies before that are fine.


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

Not every leopard gecko in the world is made too live. There are some that just simply wont make it whatever you do to help it. Whether it be inbreeding or just a bad combination in genes. It sounds terribly blunt and short sighted but I dont personally think it would be fair to keep this gecko alive by syringe feeding. I personally would put it to sleep asap. My herp vet would have the same opinion too.

Whatever you decide to do with the poor thing,
Good Luck : victory:


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

herpmad said:


> no one on here for one min has even taken into acount egg stress these deformatys may have sumt to do with genes or the parents but to me is sounds like mould had taken to the egg which has cause egg stress this is more common that we belive in fact a few years ago ppl were turn temps up and down with boas to produce wired pattens (egg stress recived during the internal incubation period ) and royals and burms, etc but that isnt to say that this animals is fit an well probly the oppersit but let be realistic its a baby gecko and the vet bills will be into £50+ when the most humain way to put a reptiles down is to put it in the freezer as they temp drop they go to sleep and then there boby stops simple every thread on this forum when there is a problem is "take to the vets" most vets just apply wat they no about rats hamster and dogs and cat there are few 100% reptile vet in this country, and then they only no wat they have read during there schooling (my local vet used to give me the treated reptiles to rehabilitate because he didnt no there general care) there are breeders here that have a better understanding of these animals (not saying im one) the vet will not operate on this lizard he may say feed some vits see how it gose but the owner has said he going to try this anyway i say give it a chance if it die it dies if not and it live fine but if your concered about it being in pain you have to be a bit harsh if your going to breed put the poor thing down your self in the most humain way there is
> 
> a needle to this gecko is not going to be pain free


When i had a gecko PTS we had to request not to have it guillotined (this was what they were going to do, which I believe is very humane, split second and your done) because we wanted to keep the body for a PM. When I saw the gecko after being injected with whatever to kill it, it did not look pretty, there was NO WAY the injection was painless, looked horrific.


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> When i had a gecko PTS we had to request not to have it guillotined (this was what they were going to do, which I believe is very humane, split second and your done) because we wanted to keep the body for a PM. When I saw the gecko after being injected with whatever to kill it, it did not look pretty, there was NO WAY the injection was painless, looked horrific.



Did you know you can see and feel for 17 seconds after you've had your head chopped off? We learnt this in YR 10 history. I don't think being guilotined is split second and painless...


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## Herpmad V2.0 (Nov 3, 2006)

when placed in a freezer there is only a few tests that can be done on a postmortem in fact i think is only IBD then cant test for so its actualy one of the best way to nicly put down a coldblooded animal as there body slows and they drift of to sleep and pass in there sleep


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> Did you know you can see and feel for 17 seconds after you've had your head chopped off? We learnt this in YR 10 history. I don't think being guilotined is split second and painless...


I never knew that the history of leopard geckos being guillotined was in the national curriculam, I certainly haven't studied it yet?


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

herpmad said:


> when placed in a freezer there is only a few tests that can be done on a postmortem in fact i think is only IBD then cant test for so its actualy one of the best way to nicly put down a coldblooded animal as there body slows and they drift of to sleep and pass in there sleep



This IMO is probably the best way to do it. It's just like putting fish in clove oil...it slowly sends them to sleep and they never wake up.


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> I never knew that the history of leopard geckos being guillotined was in the national curriculam, I certainly haven't studied it yet?


Don't get cocky, god I hate little :censor:, school is a :censor: hole with kids in. We were in school for 4 weeks - just sixth form - and it was pure bliss - then the :censor: heads came in. I wasn't saying GECKOS CAN - I was saying YOU CAN. I'm sure the same aspect/rules follow on for all animals.


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> Don't get cocky, god I hate little :censor:, school is a :censor: hole with kids in. We were in school for 4 weeks - just sixth form - and it was pure bliss - then the :censor: heads came in. I wasn't saying GECKOS CAN - I was saying YOU CAN. I'm sure the same aspect rules follow on for all animals.


And you were doubting the work of vets? I'm sure they have done a bit more studying than YR10 history. I have heard of humans staying alive but certainly not feeling anything. Once the spinal cord is severed the nervous system goes to pot < that is a fact.

I don't think it's entirely accurate comparing reptiles to mammals. Especially since there is such a huge difference in size between a leopard gecko and a human.


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> And you were doubting the work of vets? I'm sure they have done a bit more studying than YR10 history. I have heard of humans staying alive but certainly not feeling anything. Once the spinal cord is severed the nervous system goes to pot < that is a fact.
> 
> I don't think it's entirely accurate comparing reptiles to mammals. Especially since there is such a huge difference in size between a leopard gecko and a human.


Im sorry...am not going to argue with a 13 year old - A naive one at that - Yes of course I doubt the work of vets! Hah, yes lets put faith into people who get it wrong! Just like the government, and the police! Their doing a great job them! The only people in the world, who I see are doing a great job are the working class - people who havent studied for 6 years +! Education isn't everything child.

And your nervous system goes to pot yes - but not your pain receptors on your face and neck - You can still feel it - You can break your neck and still feel your upper torso - but if you have a stroke - its your face that goes first because it's the brain that is the cause, not the spine - you can still feel your lower torso when you have a stroke. (In some cases)

Yes there may be a huge difference in size but oh wait - the catfish has more tastebuds than a human - but theres a huge size difference between us and them, and there not mamals. Just because their small, doesn't mean they can't feel as much as us!


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> Don't get cocky, god I hate little :censor:, school is a :censor: hole with kids in. We were in school for 4 weeks - just sixth form - and it was pure bliss - then the :censor: heads came in. I wasn't saying GECKOS CAN - I was saying YOU CAN. I'm sure the same aspect/rules follow on for all animals.





IndigoFire said:


> Im sorry...am not going to argue with a 13 year old - A naive one at that - Yes of course I doubt the work of vets! Hah, yes lets put faith into people who get it wrong! Just like the government, and the police! Their doing a great job them! The only people in the world, who I see are doing a great job are the working class - people who havent studied for 6 years +! Education isn't everything child.
> 
> Yes there may be a huge difference in size but oh wait - the catfish has more tastebuds than a human - but theres a huge size difference between us and them, and there not mamals. Just because their small, doesn't mean they can't feel as much as us!


I think you missed the point there, when did I mention catfish? I struggle to see? When did I mention tastebuds, I'm also failing to work that one out too? Did your history teacher also tell you that catfish can still taste when they have been decapatated? Ahhhhh.... education isn't everything... I see. Did you carry out the experiment yourself then? You seem to be backing yourself up with something that you have been taught by I guess scientists? This would count as education I'm afraid.


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## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

whats the differance arguing with a 13 and a 33 year old 

and on this forum i find it hard to decifer by the nature and composure and spelling in many posts


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

^ The difference is a 33 year old (not all) is normally more life experiance than a 13 year old and is able to back their ideas up with things that don't come from wikipedia.




repkid said:


> I think you missed the point there, when did I mention catfish? I struggle to see? When did I mention tastebuds, I'm also failing to work that one out too? Did your history teacher also tell you that catfish can still taste when they have been decapatated?



No you mentioned the difference between mamals and reptiles - are you missing the point? I compared Fish and Mamals. Tastebuds, was just an example. No my history teacher did not - I dont think i've ever been told that.


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## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

its mammals


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> No you mentioned the difference between mamals and reptiles - are you missing the point? I compared Fish and Mamals. Tastebuds, was just an example. No my history teacher did not - I dont think i've ever been told that.


So you just randomly know that from an act of ..... I'm guessing the only way you will know then if is was not told to you, was by carrying out the experiment yourself?


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

jackyboy said:


> *its* mammals


it's ... :whistling2:


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## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

sorry but i find bradley is able to back up ideas

and i dont know where you got the wikipedia (sp) thing from 

i have seen many many many adults on this forum that start an argument and then when proved wrong resorts to insults and the one who is taking the abuse from some RFUK gay or chav (or what ever group is in fashion atm) is the one that end up gettign the infraction

not long ago on here a friend of mine was accused of looking and acting like Hitler !!

juat goes to show they type of clientell (sp) this place attracts 

and once you start getting insulted in an argument you know instanly you have won


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> So you just randomly know that from an act of ..... I'm guessing the only way you will know then if is was not told to you, was by carrying out the experiment yourself?



Did I actually mention the decaptiation of a catfish? No I think not..It was an example that you have thought about to hard, because your pubecent mind cannot handle data as complex as that. :whistling2: As I said I will not argue with "kids" even if they think there einstein. Sorry for the Hijack OP and I hope you make the right decision on your own, bearing in mind the opinions on here, but not entirely based upon them. Goodluck.


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> ^ The difference is a 33 year old (not all) is normally more life experiance than a 13 year old and *is able to back their ideas up with things that don't come from wikipedia.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So when did they teach you to read in YR 10?


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

jackyboy said:


> sorry but i find bradley is able to back up ideas
> 
> and i dont know where you got the wikipedia (sp) thing from
> 
> i have seen many many



I see no backup at all mate. Give me a research paper on leopard geckos not feeling anything durning decaptiation and I will totally believe a 13 year old.


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> So when did they teach you to read in YR 10?


Bah-hah...Yes I don't study A level english because I'm unable to read...Oh and Music...Oh and Economics...Oh and History - they all require no reading. You have no backed up one single idea with good basis or structure - there are no medical papers, just your mind - and the day I believe a 13 year old is the day f:censor:g pigs fly with natural wings that look like that of a seagull that has a slight wing disorder.


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> Did I actually mention the decaptiation of a catfish? No I think not..It was an example that you have thought about to hard, because your pubecent mind cannot handle data as complex as that. :whistling2: As I said I will not argue with "kids" even if they think there einstein. Sorry for the Hijack OP and I hope you make the right decision on your own, bearing in mind the opinions on here, but not entirely based upon them. Goodluck.


You missed the point yet again. You see the argument, it all came from something being Guillotined/beheaded/decapatated. I never mentioned what geckos feel like when they are alive? Or did I, I am eagerly awaiting a answer. I don't think I am Einstein, I only ever argue when I have something to back myself up with, not all kids are dumb, resorting to name calling because, dare I say it, you backed yourself up with something completely irrelevant to the conversation.


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

re read my reply i pressed 'post' by mistake 

i am 13 and last september ( when i was still 12 acctualy) i gave a talk on leopard geckos to the forth valley reptile club which i am also a commitee member of 

i will look it out and type it up tomorow and PM it to you if you wish ?


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> I see no backup at all mate. Give me a research paper on leopard geckos not feeling anything durning decaptiation and I will totally believe a 13 year old.


Ok then, I think I will go tell my herp vet to piss off and that he is wrong and that you are right. I'll tell him I want my money back because he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.



IndigoFire said:


> Bah-hah...Yes I don't study A level english because I'm unable to read...Oh and Music...Oh and Economics...Oh and History - they all require no reading. You have no backed up one single idea with good basis or structure - there are no medical papers, just your mind - and the day I believe a 13 year old is the day f:censor:g pigs fly with natural wings that look like that of a seagull that has a slight wing disorder.


The problem lies where you acuse me of things I have never said or implied. Where did it all come from? Just your mind I reckon?


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> You missed the point yet again. You see the argument, it all came from something being Guillotined/beheaded/decapatated. I never mentioned what geckos feel like when they are alive? Or did I, I am eagerly awaiting a answer. I don't think I am Einstein, I only ever argue when I have something to back myself up with, not all kids are dumb, resorting to name calling because, dare I say it, you backed yourself up with something completely irrelevant to the conversation.



You haven't backed yourself up at all...

All I have to say is "Fine what ever kids" you carry on believing what you want..It's fine by me. 

And I aslo have not mentioned anything about geckos feeling things when there alive. 

Last post now kids because I really can't be arsed to argue with you.

Oh and to your last post - I did not say that about your vet - But I would not put my complete faith with him. And I havent accused you of anything in that post. I was just clearly stating that I can read perfectly well.


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

repkid said:


> Ok then, I think I will go tell my herp vet to piss off and that he is wrong and that you are right. I'll tell him I want my money back because he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.


 
and i think ill go and tell the same to mine (romain pizzi)

he may be one of the most highly qualified vets in the country but according to you he aint got a clue what he is on about

i would trust him with my own life let alone my reptiles one


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

jackyboy said:


> and i think ill go and tell the same to mine (romain pizzi)
> 
> he may be one of the most highly qualified vets in the country but according to you he aint got a clue what he is on about
> 
> i would trust him with my own life let alone my reptiles one



I didnt say he hasnt got a clue what he's on about. You two accuse me of seeing things, you should take a look at yourself kids.


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> You haven't backed yourself up at all...
> 
> All I have to say is "Fine what ever kids" you carry on believing what you want..It's fine by me.
> 
> ...


The catfish you mentioned earlier was alive, and the argument is about animals WITHOUT their HEADS connected to the rest of their BODY.

I don't know how old you are (adult/teenager) so in order to not "offend" you, all I have to say is "Fine what ever IndigoFire". You know it all. Should I go cry in the corner know?


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

well thats fine 

but in my opinion you are being quite narrow minded and stereotypical 

i cant blame you with most of the 'kids' that come on this forum


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> The catfish you mentioned earlier was alive, and the argument is about animals WITHOUT their HEADS connected to the rest of their BODY.
> 
> I don't know how old you are (adult/teenager) so in order to not "offend" you, all I have to say is "Fine what ever IndigoFire". You know it all. Should I go cry in the corner know?



I used the catfish as an example of your supposed size difference theory and Classification.

I'm 17, and I do not claim to be a "know it all".


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> You haven't backed yourself up at all...
> 
> All I have to say is "Fine what ever kids" you carry on believing what you want..It's fine by me.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pono (Jan 21, 2008)

:war:


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> I used the catfish as an example of your supposed size difference theory and Classication.
> 
> *I'm 17, and I do not claim to be a "know it all".[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Hmmm, neither did I, yet I still get called one, shame isn't it.


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

jackyboy said:


> well thats fine
> 
> but in my opinion you are being quite narrow minded and stereotypical
> 
> i cant blame you with most of the 'kids' that come on this forum


We shall agree to disagree on that then.


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> IndigoFire said:
> 
> 
> > I used the catfish as an example of your supposed size difference theory and Classication.
> ...


----------



## Pono (Jan 21, 2008)

ff to get popcorn and drinks:


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

Pono said:


> ff to get popcorn and drinks:



It's finnished now Ed - I can't be arsed :lol2:

Sorry for the Hijack OP - and anyone who has opinions on my posts, please PM me with your thoughts, and do not carry it on here.

Goodluck OP. : victory:


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> repkid said:
> 
> 
> > I did not call you a know it all, I called you Einstein, there is a difference.
> ...


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> IndigoFire said:
> 
> 
> > I would have thought that by A level in English they would have taught you what implieing something is... no? Your know full well that you are doing so. I guess ALL 13 year olds are too "dumb" to understand what it is. Yes a lot of other 13 year olds wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I'm afraid I know exactly what it is. Did I catch you out?
> ...


----------



## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Anyway, back on topic.

I am afraid that leo would be PTS if it hatched here. I take on a lot of rescues and I am pretty good at syringe feeding and dealing with deformities but if a leo of mine hatched with that level of deformity, I would not try to fix it. Personally, I would say there appears to be too much wrong with that little one, sorry.


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> repkid said:
> 
> 
> > There was nothing to catch out on. Kid - I was just like you when I was 13, so don't think I don't know what it's like to not be listened to. You should learn to be not so cocky though. I was not on here to start an argument, but obviously you were. Now as my previous post says, you want to carry this on, please PM me.
> ...


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> IndigoFire said:
> 
> 
> > 1 more post on this thread cant hurt, there is already 4 or so pages of arguments. So i'll leave it at this - I was here to voice my opinion and previous experiences with putting geckos to sleep. Smart ass decided I was wrong and you were right. *Without evidence nor backing*. A 13 year old was easy prey I guess. Looking at it from a mature point of view the older more "life experienced" person should have left it from the beginning no? Ouch.
> ...


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Saedcantas said:


> I suspect I am one of a very few people on here who (mostly silently) feel that if you have to syringe feed a seriously deformed hatchling from birth, ethically you really shouldn't be doing it.
> 
> It's selfish enough that we keep these animals as pets because it suits us (Don't get me wrong, I've got a boatload of pets, I'm just under no illusions about it being for any other reason than for my own pleasure) without forcing animals to survive when it just isn't in their best interests. Is it really fair to subject an animal that just wasn't meant to make it, to however many months of syringe feeding and prodding it takes to get it to "100% perfect", You can bet an animal that hatches that badly deformed will never been anything like 100% perfect, whether it looks that way on the outside or not.
> 
> ...


As ever, I find myself completely and whole-heartedly agreeing with Lotte!





IndigoFire said:


> That is what makes us human - emotion. I don't want to get into the argument about ethics. I see where your coming from - but it is a bit radical.
> 
> EDIT: For Example, if you or a loved one got ill, which could be treated over time, but there was not 100% of a chance you would survive, would you or your loved one say "Dont treat me/them...It's obvious I/they need to die"


It is a completely different arguement when we are talking humans versus leopard geckos. Geckos are by nature prococial (meaning they are almost completely self sufficient from birth and need no parental care). As such they produce a huge amount young and naturally, many will die/not reach adulthood (i.e. high young mortality). Humans on the other hand are altricial (helpless at birth needing huge parental care) and produce a very small number of offspring and put everything into raising them successfully (i.e. low young mortality is natural).

By artificially raising all the animals hatched we are systematically reducing the strength of the genepool. Now, I breed herps myself and clearly do not euthaniase healthy animals for the sake of it, but I do think it is going too far to try and raise such an obviously deformed and weak animal. I believe that even if it does make it to adulthood it is not ethical to put it through the stress of getting there (and for what ends? - so the owner can feel good about raising it? - sorry, but I don't think that the animals best interests are being put first.


Therefore - I feel the animal should be euthanaised. 






IndigoFire said:


> Im sorry...am not going to argue with a 13 year old - A naive one at that - Yes of course I doubt the work of vets! Hah, yes lets put faith into people who get it wrong! Just like the government, and the police! Their doing a great job them! The only people in the world, who I see are doing a great job are the working class - people who havent studied for 6 years +! Education isn't everything child.
> 
> And your nervous system goes to pot yes - but not your pain receptors on your face and neck - You can still feel it - You can break your neck and still feel your upper torso - but if you have a stroke - its your face that goes first because it's the brain that is the cause, not the spine - you can still feel your lower torso when you have a stroke. (In some cases)
> 
> Yes there may be a huge difference in size but oh wait - the catfish has more tastebuds than a human - but theres a huge size difference between us and them, and there not mamals. Just because their small, doesn't mean they can't feel as much as us!


 
Might I point out that your entire arguement started because you claimed, *as fact*, something that you learnt in a y10 history class, then became hugely defensive, rude and patronising when someone younger than you (yet evidently many times more mature and intelligent) picked you up on it and asked you to clarify!



IndigoFire said:


> Bah-hah...Yes I don't study A level english because I'm unable to read...Oh and Music...Oh and Economics...Oh and History - they all require no reading. You have no backed up one single idea with good basis or structure - there are no medical papers, just your mind - and the day I believe a 13 year old is the day f:censor:g pigs fly with natural wings that look like that of a seagull that has a slight wing disorder.


The way I see it, your swearing, weak arguements and patronising tone have made you clearly appear the youngest child in this thread.

On a further note, can I praise Repkid on his mature and rational posts and on his restraint when up against such anger and rudeness.


Cheers

Andy


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

IndigoFire said:


> That is what makes us human - emotion. I don't want to get into the argument about ethics. I see where your coming from - but it is a bit radical.
> 
> EDIT: For Example, if you or a loved one got ill, which could be treated over time, but there was not 100% of a chance you would survive, would you or your loved one say "Dont treat me/them...It's obvious I/they need to die"


never mind 

sorry


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> repkid said:
> 
> 
> > That statement is oxymoronic. You did not either.
> ...


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

EDIT - This thread was irrelevant since Jackyboy has edited:whip:


:lol2:


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

bothrops said:


> On a further note, can I praise Repkid on his mature and rational posts and on his restraint when up against such anger and rudeness.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> ...


cough cough cough 

on a serious notw i totaly agree with you about this 

you have brought some sence into this discussin


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

jackyboy said:


> WO WO WO
> 
> that is incredibly narrow minded
> 
> what about all the cancer patients they dont have 100% chance of surviving but are determinded to survive but according to you we should let them die !


You need to of read the previous posts which follow up to that one, then you would realise it is a sarcastic comment. Why am I defending IndigoFire on this one? Because I have something to back up my answer. See what I mean now IndigoFire?

Oh and thanks Bothrops


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

i edited 

i just reacted on what i saw and first reading etc 

its gone now


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

jackyboy said:


> WO WO WO
> 
> that is incredibly narrow minded
> 
> what about all the cancer patients they dont have 100% chance of surviving but are determinded to survive but according to you we should let them die !


incorrect, the poster before stated this. I believe all living things should have a chance on life. 

Andy, I accept your post, but I dissagree with a few things. 

A) you saying I have inferior intelligence, I may know less about certain things, but this does not make me less than intelligent. I don't disagree he is more mature than I am, but to be honest, I like still being a childish arrogant twat. 

B) You say I have weak arguments, this I may, but so does repkid - I see no strong argument other than " it's what my vet told me"

C) I did not state anything as fact - just expressed my opinion and shared my " unintelligent and imature" knowlodge


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> incorrect, the poster before stated this. I believe all living things should have a chance on life.
> 
> Andy, I accept your post, but I dissagree with a few things.
> 
> ...


They may be weak but they over ride yours by a long way.


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

They may do, I still see no solid proof. As stated before I agree you may be correct on a few things, and I apologize for being patronizing.


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

well you have had the opinions of 2 outside parties saying repkids argumnts are far better than yours 

take it as proof


----------



## Pono (Jan 21, 2008)

I'm not getting involved in the argument here, but just wanted to point out that people are saying these deformed, 'special' lizards are polluting the gene pool. I just thought i'd add though, that most people don't breed from these individuals. I can just see people responding to this and saying that irresponsible people possibly without much knowledge, may well breed from such individuals. However i think that this is going to be extremely rare as only people with alot of knowledge and dedication would be able to raise such individuals, and people like this would know better than to breed from them. I accept there may be a very few cases (normally with animals with much less deformation) happening, but with animals deformed to such a state as the OP has posted, i think there is very little chance people would be mad enough to try breed from them.

Ed : victory:


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> incorrect, the poster before stated this. I believe all living things should have a chance on life. *(ever used an anti bacterial soap? or any soap for that matter? or antibiotics?.......(just* *extending your arguement a little! (you're also vegetarian I assume....)*
> 
> Andy, I accept your post, but I dissagree with a few things.
> 
> ...


Cheers

Andy


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

repkid said:


> They may be weak but they over ride yours by a long way.





jackyboy said:


> well you have had the opinions of 2 outside parties saying repkids argumnts are far better than yours
> 
> take it as proof


Yeah and I believe in Jesus because the whole Christian faith tells me he was real. I am a realist, I don't believe anything unless seen with my own eyes or heard myself from a specialist. There was also a documentary on my decapitation theory, so it wasn't total bullshit.

Andy, I hate vegeterianism, when I said all animals I meant it as non-food products and even they have a chance, just not very long ones. This could turn into another argument so Im gonna leave it.


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

well im christand but would class myself as athiest (sp) 

and i dont think you saw jesus with your own eyes


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

IndigoFire said:


> Yeah and I believe in Jesus because the whole Christian faith tells me he was real. I am a realist, I don't believe anything unless seen with my own eyes or heard myself from a specialist. There was also a documentary on my decapitation theory, so it wasn't total bullshit.
> 
> Andy, I hate vegeterianism, when I said all animals I meant it as non-food products. This could turn into another argument so Im gonna leave it.


that is just sooo flawed im not even going to go into it !


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> They may do, I still see no solid proof. As stated before I agree you may be correct on a few things, and I apologize for being patronizing.


 I don't have solid proof I admit. But again like you just admitted it over rides your arguments. Seeing as YOU were the one who claimed I was infact wrong and started this whole thing, it is up to you as bothrops said to provide a stronger counter argument. Which was never done unfortunately for you.


Pono said:


> I'm not getting involved in the argument here, but just wanted to point out that people are saying these deformed, 'special' lizards are polluting the gene pool. I just thought i'd add though, that most people don't breed from these individuals. I can just see people responding to this and saying that irresponsible people possibly without much knowledge, may well breed from such individuals. However i think that this is going to be extremely rare as only people with alot of knowledge and dedication would be able to raise such individuals, and people like this would know better than to breed from them. I accept there may be a very few cases (normally with animals with much less deformation) happening, but with animals deformed to such a state as the OP has posted, i think there is very little chance people would be mad enough to try breed from them.
> 
> Ed : victory:


What is meant is that they should not be occuring in the first place. The amount of inbreeding over the years with leopard geckos has caused the problem. Gene pools in leopard geckos are therefore in most cases rather weak. After a while the innevitable will occur. Yes it could happen in the wild, but it's far more unlikely to occur on such a frequency as in captivity. No one in their own right mind would breed from such a poorly formed gecko, as you are right about needing experience to bring them up in the first place.


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

repkid said:


> They may be weak but they over ride yours by a long way.





jackyboy said:


> well you have had the opinions of 2 outside parties saying repkids argumnts are far better than yours
> 
> take it as proof


careful lads, you're in danger of loosing the moral high ground. Know when to stop: victory:



Pono said:


> I'm not getting involved in the argument here, but just wanted to point out that people are saying these deformed, 'special' lizards are polluting the gene pool. I just thought i'd add though, that most people don't breed from these individuals. I can just see people responding to this and saying that irresponsible people possibly without much knowledge, may well breed from such individuals. However i think that this is going to be extremely rare as only people with alot of knowledge and dedication would be able to raise such individuals, and people like this would know better than to breed from them. I accept there may be a very few cases (normally with animals with much less deformation) happening, but with animals deformed to such a state as the OP has posted, i think there is very little chance people would be mad enough to try breed from them.
> 
> Ed : victory:


I still think it is ethically wrong to keep such animals alive for the benefit of the 'feel good factor' that the carer gets, or the lack of pain they get from not having to acually have it PTS.

I have every respect for the dedicated and genuine rescuers that put hours into rehabiliting animals that have been maimed or otherwise damaged at the hands of irresponsible or niave or inexperienced keepers, but I feel it is completely unnecessary to put this hatchling through any more discomfort just because it is difficult for the owner to put it to sleep.

Cheers

Andy


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

jackyboy said:


> that is just sooo flawed im not even going to go into it !


 please PM with my flaws, would love to see you string something up. Been nice expressing views with you guys. But it's past my bed time :lol2:


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

jackyboy said:


> well im christand but would class myself as athiest (sp)
> 
> and i dont think you saw jesus with your own eyes


You're an atheist christian? :lol2:

...and again, I think you missed the sarcasm - I feel an edit coming on!



jackyboy said:


> that is just sooo flawed im not even going to go into it !


I disagree. His statement was perfectly logical and factual. If he is a realist he needs first hand evidence in order to take a point on board (although, that said, I'm not sure when he was decapitated:whistling2::lol2


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> Yeah and I believe in Jesus because the whole Christian faith tells me he was real. I am a realist, I don't believe anything unless seen with my own eyes or heard myself from a specialist. There was also a documentary on my decapitation theory, so it wasn't total bullshit.
> 
> Andy, I hate vegeterianism, when I said all animals I meant it as non-food products and even they have a chance, just not very long ones. This could turn into another argument so Im gonna leave it.


No offence to anyone here but I wont believe in any type of God until they proove themselves to me. I have to see something or hear something to believe it. Just like you.

I am again stuggling here as to where I mentioned your decapitation theory being total BS. I simply stated that what may be true for humans is not necessarily the same for reptiles in this case.


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

IndigoFire said:


> Yeah and I believe in Jesus because the whole Christian faith tells me he was real. I am a realist, I don't believe anything unless seen with my own eyes or heard myself from a specialist. There was also a documentary on my decapitation theory, so it wasn't total bullshit.
> 
> Andy, I hate vegeterianism, when I said all animals I meant it as non-food products and even they have a chance, just not very long ones. This could turn into another argument so Im gonna leave it.


well lets see

so what about the cows and sheep people keep as pets some would say they are food items or products

i hate the tinking that animals are just called products 

look i think you know yourself you have lost this one so leave it


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

bothrops said:


> You're an atheist christian? :lol2:


yes technecally im christian but my beleifs are athiest if that makes scence 
at all hahah :lol2:


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

IndigoFire said:


> Yeah and I believe in Jesus because the whole Christian faith tells me he was real. I am a realist, I don't believe anything unless seen with my own eyes or heard myself from a specialist. There was also a documentary on my decapitation theory, so it wasn't total bullshit.
> 
> Andy, I hate vegeterianism, when I said all animals I meant it as non-food products and even they have a chance, just not very long ones. This could turn into another argument so *Im gonna leave it*.





jackyboy said:


> well lets see
> 
> so what about the cows and sheep people keep as pets some would say they are food items or products
> 
> ...


Slight *FAIL *there Jack :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

cmon now andy everyones been decapitated, :lol2:, as I said I saw a docummentary on tv about it.

And Jack, I have not lost, and nor have you "won". It's obvious we have conflicting ideologys, and neither of us has changed our ways because of it.


----------



## Pono (Jan 21, 2008)

repkid said:


> What is meant is that they should not be occuring in the first place. The amount of inbreeding over the years with leopard geckos has caused the problem. Gene pools in leopard geckos are therefore in most cases rather weak. After a while the innevitable will occur. Yes it could happen in the wild, but it's far more unlikely to occur on such a frequency as in captivity. No one in their own right mind would breed from such a poorly formed gecko, as you are right about needing experience to bring them up in the first place.


I agree with you there that deformaties shouldn't be happening, but i think most birth defects are caused by eggs rolling, or bad temp fluctuations (or other problems in incubation), and not that many happen due to bad genetics (although the leopard gecko gene pool is quite weak). I could be very wrong though lol




bothrops said:


> I still think it is ethically wrong to keep such animals alive for the benefit of the 'feel good factor' that the carer gets, or the lack of pain they get from not having to acually have it PTS.
> 
> I have every respect for the dedicated and genuine rescuers that put hours into rehabiliting animals that have been maimed or otherwise damaged at the hands of irresponsible or niave or inexperienced keepers, but I feel it is completely unnecessary to put this hatchling through any more discomfort just because it is difficult for the owner to put it to sleep.
> 
> ...


 
Fair play, a good counter argument 

Ed


----------



## jackyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

i did not i say i had won 

i just though saying you loose sounded a bit less geeky than you fail lol


----------



## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

jackyboy said:


> i did not i say i had won
> 
> i just though saying you loose sounded a bit less geeky than you fail lol


By saying I loose or fail implies you have won or succeeded. And I also don't see the funny side of this. But never mind. Goodnight


----------



## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

Pono said:


> I agree with you there that deformaties shouldn't be happening, but i think most birth defects are caused by eggs rolling, or bad temp fluctuations (or other problems in incubation), and not that many happen due to bad genetics (although the leopard gecko gene pool is quite weak). I could be very wrong though lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you there, however even though only a small amount of deformities are caused from genetic weaknesses, that small amount is still too many.

Night all, have to get up in 4 hours, do 3 paper rounds and hide my frozen food order in my nan's freezer :lol2:


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

flip me 12 pages?


----------



## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> flip me 12 pages?


yep was going to say that myself :whistling2:



herpmad said:


> when placed in a freezer there is only a few tests that can be done on a postmortem in fact i think is only IBD then cant test for so its actualy one of the best way to nicly put down a coldblooded animal as there body slows and they drift of to sleep and pass in there sleep





herpmad said:


> the most humain way to put a reptiles down is to put it in the freezer as they temp drop they go to sleep and then there boby stops simple every thread on this forum when there is a problem is "take to the vets" most vets just apply wat they no about rats hamster and dogs and cat there are few 100% reptile vet in this country, and then they only no wat they have read during there schooling


here's my tuppence worth on this ~ IMO freezing is *not* humane at all nor is it one of the best ways of topping a rep.
plus if someone has a problem with a rep then yes I will advise them to take it to a vet especially with regards medications 

finally with regards a badly deformed rep ~ fraid I'm one of those that would have it humanely pts.


----------



## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

SleepyD said:


> here's my tuppence worth on this ~ IMO freezing is *not* humane at all nor is it one of the best ways of topping a rep.
> plus if someone has a problem with a rep then yes I will advise them to take it to a vet especially with regards medications
> 
> finally with regards a badly deformed rep ~ fraid I'm one of those that would have it humanely pts.


:notworthy: Totally agree


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## aceboidz (Jul 25, 2008)

wow took me a long time to read, but it was worth it.

Once again xsmithx2 I hope for your sake and the leopard geckos, make the right decision and stick by it ; )


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

Yeah, sorry guys.


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## Fried_frog (Jun 2, 2009)

*rubs eyes*

Oh that was mighty reading, i'm glad all arguements have ceased seeing as it was probably upsetting the OP!

I would have the little one PTS, give the healthy ones a good chance, but that one looks like it's too far gone to help.

Hope you come to a decision you are content with


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

SleepyD said:


> here's my tuppence worth on this ~ IMO freezing is *not* humane at all nor is it one of the best ways of topping a rep.
> plus if someone has a problem with a rep then yes I will advise them to take it to a vet especially with regards medications
> 
> finally with regards a badly deformed rep ~ fraid I'm one of those that would have it humanely pts.


Nor is decapitation - Decapitation of Reptiles For decapitation to be effective the brain has to be destroyed immediately afterwards to stop prolongued suffering as the brain can remain active for up to an hour otherwise.

(also mention freezing = bad and carbon dioxide = bad)


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

SilverSteno said:


> Nor is decapitation - Decapitation of Reptiles For decapitation to be effective the brain has to be destroyed immediately afterwards to stop prolongued suffering as the brain can remain active for up to an hour otherwise.
> 
> (also mention freezing = bad and carbon dioxide = bad)


So actually in theory, the most humane way to euthanise a reptile is to completely destroy the brain, and though it may sound a bit sick, a brick would be the most humane method if necessary.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

I am amazed and to be quite frank, Im disgusted that a thread about a deformed gecko can be turned in to such a long drawn out and quite pointless argument. Much of the rubbish that has been spouted has little or no relevence to the OP. Nice to see people care so much about this poor little leo that they can push it to one side while they off load their little rants. A very experienced leo breeder mentioned this thread to me yesterday and told me that it is threads of this nature that are turning him away from RFUK. Im sure he wont be the first nor the last to leave because of this type of :censor: I know there are many reptile forums where arguing for arguings sake (as in this thread) will not be tolerated. Everyone has a right to their say or opinion. Obviously people are going to disagree with each other at times but you can disagree without the need for petty arguing. 

I find it very sad that people can find a gecko as deformed as the one mentioned to be something awesome. From the description alone it is pretty clear that this hatchling must be suffering. A pinpoint eye, a misshapen head is likely to mean massively increased inter cranial pressure. Unfortunately the hatchling cant vocalise its pain experience, cant ask for a pain killer. If it does survive it is unlikely to be able to hunt independently or effectively, it will be dependent on human assistance for the rest of its days. Please dont forget that leos can live for a very very long time. Can it be guaranteed that this human assistance will always be available ?

Often in threads such as this people tend to compare reptiles with humans or at least put human values against the rep. A severely disabled human will have the support of a society that is equipped to meet all human needs. The chances of a reptile being guaranteed long term support for its disabilties are very slim. I know there are people who do fantastic work with 'special' reps but they cant possibly guarantee special care for rest of a reps life. None of us can guarantee what our personal circumstances will be next week,next month, next year.

Much is said about keeping reps in conditions that replicate their natural environments. In reality a hatchling like this would not survive very long within its natural environment. It is survival of the fittest and nature would ensure that this hatchling was spared prolonged and unnecessary suffering. Please avoid the temptation to place human values against this hatchling and do the right thing. At least have a reptile experienced vet examine the hatchling and listen to what they have to say. In whose interest is it to keep this hatchling alive ? I suspect keeping it alive would be more to do with human feelings rather than feelings for the rep. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made. Part of loving and caring about our reps is being prepared to make those decisions and being prepared to act humanely towards the animals in our care.

I hope that makes sense, Im only on my first coffee and not fully awake yet.


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

Mal said:


> I am amazed and to be quite frank, Im disgusted that a thread about a deformed gecko can be turned in to such a long drawn out and quite pointless argument. Much of the rubbish that has been spouted has little or no relevence to the OP. Nice to see people care so much about this poor little leo that they can push it to one side while they off load their little rants. A very experienced leo breeder mentioned this thread to me yesterday and told me that it is threads of this nature that are turning him away from RFUK. Im sure he wont be the first nor the last to leave because of this type of :censor: I know there are many reptile forums where arguing for arguings sake (as in this thread) will not be tolerated. Everyone has a right to their say or opinion. Obviously people are going to disagree with each other at times but you can disagree without the need for petty arguing.
> 
> 
> yea i agree.. there is tooooo many arguements on RFUK.. thats why i didnt come on it for about 3 weeks.... about a month agoo..


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

i only read the first post... cba with ranting/moaning and so no idea what has happened to this lil one... gorgeous little leo (i like the special ones) definitely think a trip to a reptile specialist vet is needed... looks like MBD from the mother not having enough calcium but could be anything... wont know until you take the lil one to the vet... may be in pain, may not be in pain... never know, could go on to live a normal (but shorter) life... Humpy the beardie has more kinks in him than a curly wurly but he gets on fine 

hope you do the best thing for the little one... have any of the other hatchlings come out like this as if it is MBD from the mother having lack of calcium it could affect the other babies from the clutches too x


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## suez (Jul 8, 2007)

herpmad it is not humane to put a reptile in a freezer it is a VERY painful death .to the op i am very sorry for you, i have experienced a badly deformed baby an within an hour she was humanely uthenised by my vet.it is always a heart wrenching desicion and we dont know what other abnormalities may be going on iside.
sorry for your baby


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

sazzle said:


> i only read the first post... cba with ranting/moaning and so no idea what has happened to this lil one... gorgeous little leo (i like the special ones) definitely think a trip to a reptile specialist vet is needed... looks like MBD from the mother not having enough calcium but could be anything... wont know until you take the lil one to the vet... may be in pain, may not be in pain... never know, could go on to live a normal (but shorter) life... Humpy the beardie has more kinks in him than a curly wurly but he gets on fine
> 
> hope you do the best thing for the little one... have any of the other hatchlings come out like this as if it is MBD from the mother having lack of calcium it could affect the other babies from the clutches too x


it cant be a lack of calcium as the over clutch mate was a normal gecko... and ive always dust my crickets,mealworms, roaches with calcium nearly everyday when i feed them....


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## Ailsa (Aug 15, 2009)

I didnt read all posts because of the arguing
Could you update me on him please?


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

xsmithx2 said:


> it cant be a lack of calcium as the over clutch mate was a normal gecko... and ive always dust my crickets,mealworms, roaches with calcium nearly everyday when i feed them....



this is why i asked if any of the other hatchlings were like this... i stated

*looks like MBD from the mother not having enough calcium but could be anything... wont know until you take the lil one to the vet...* may be in pain, may not be in pain... never know, could go on to live a normal (but shorter) life... Humpy the beardie has more kinks in him than a curly wurly but he gets on fine 

hope you do the best thing for the little one... *have any of the other hatchlings come out like this as if it is MBD from the mother having lack of calcium it could affect the other babies from the clutches too *x


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

Ailsa said:


> I didnt read all posts because of the arguing
> Could you update me on him please?


hes had his first shed.. finished yday... and he doing ok atm.. moving around the cage but walkin a little differnet than the others..... havnt seen him eating yet... 
just weighed him hes only 1.9G's
hes a small one.


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## Ailsa (Aug 15, 2009)

hes a cute little thing for sure
im sure he will gulp down the wax worms lol


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

Ailsa said:


> hes a cute little thing for sure
> im sure he will gulp down the wax worms lol



lmao a waxworm is like nearly his size lol.... well if u put to waxworms together it would be him..


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Wow, Mal, nicely put! *claps*


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

hi all. bad NEWS

when i came back from my apprenticeship course today, which was about half 5, i check on the little guy and found that he had passed away. 
but he was fine this morning though when i checked on him..

i done what i could to the little guy, but it did make him perk up more, when i feed him etc...


R.I.P little guy.


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## kirstyink (Mar 6, 2009)

ohhh no! poor little thing R.I.P

you did all you could though so well done! x


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## becca26 (Aug 5, 2009)

R.I.P little one x


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

...probably for the best. Somethings are just not meant to be.


regards


Andy


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## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Sorry bout that. Im sure he wasn't in any pain. Probably just fell asleep thinking about how nice ud been to him 
xx


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

So who would put this lil one to sleep then??

































Out of the 10 eggs hatched from the same parents, this one was the only one deformed, we didn't think it would survive, we didn't assist feed and thought we'd let nature take its course.... 6 weeks on the lil fella eats everything in sight and appears to be thriving.

So would you still put it to sleep????


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

xsmithx2 said:


> hi all. bad NEWS
> 
> when i came back from my apprenticeship course today, which was about half 5, i check on the little guy and found that he had passed away.
> but he was fine this morning though when i checked on him..
> ...


 
Sorry for your loss, sorry i didn't read this before i posted, i hope you dont think i was being insensative.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> So would you still put it to sleep????


Yes. 100%. As soon as it hatched.

For all the reasons previously stated on this thread.

Breeding animals carries with it a moral and ethical responsibilty and (IMO) that includes being able to euthanise animals that are clearly deformed and would not be considered 'healthy' by anyones standards, despite how difficult it might be _personally_ for you to do it.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

bothrops said:


> Yes. 100%. As soon as it hatched.
> 
> For all the reasons previously stated on this thread.
> 
> Breeding animals carries with it a moral and ethical responsibilty and (IMO) that includes being able to euthanise animals that are clearly deformed and would not be considered 'healthy' by anyones standards, despite how difficult it might be _personally_ for you to do it.



soooooooooooooooooooooooo

if you had a child... and it was born without an eye, woudl you put them to sleep?

EDIT - slightly different i know..but still


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> soooooooooooooooooooooooo
> 
> if you had a child... and it was born without an eye, woudl you put them to sleep?
> 
> EDIT - slightly different i know..but still


_slightly _different?!?!

...in view of the fact that I wouldn't be breeding captive, selectively bred, morph children in large numbers to sell to other people, taking their children, growing them up and then choosing which of those offspring get to procreate etc etc, you'll have to forgive me for making a 'no comment' response to such a rediculous comparison.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

bothrops said:


> _slightly _different?!?!
> 
> ...in view of the fact that I wouldn't be breeding captive, selectively bred, morph children in large numbers to sell to other people, taking their children, growing them up and then choosing which of those offspring get to procreate etc etc, you'll have to forgive me for making a 'no comment' response to such a rediculous comparison.


lol fair dooooooooos


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> lol fair dooooooooos


always a difficult subject, but one I feel it is important to be honest about despite the fact that it may make me seem at best insensitive and at worst a fascist....

The point is that I believe that animal welfare is the single most important consideration to any keeper/breeder and that supercedes ANY difficult and upsetting actions that need to be taken. I feel that if you can not see past the over sentimentalism and actually make a quick (and often difficult) decision to put the animals welfare above your (often genuine, if misguided) need to 'look after', 'nurse' or 'save' animals that would never survive past day one in the wild, then I do not think you should be breeding the animals in the first place.

Cheers

Andy


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Lets stop arguing here, personal preference plays a part in people not putting a leo to sleep. slurms gecko has grown out of the deformities and lives on so can others..

Sorry to hear about the gecko OP R.I.P dont give up 

And if i wanted to be picky the bible says let all animals be commanded by man .....


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

messengermatt said:


> And if i wanted to be picky the bible says let all animals be commanded by man .....


What has a 2000 year old story book got to do with anything?




Still, agree with the rest of it.


My apologies OP - I'm still genuinely sorry for your loss. It is never nice when these things happen.


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## marcgroovyge (Apr 3, 2008)

RIP little guy



And I dont think you should of edited that Freeky.

You would not put down a disabled child as they can thrive just like any other person. It is the same human or not!

Pete & Sarah - Good for you! Im glad your leo is doing so well! Its gorgeous!

The only way I would go about putting a reptile to sleep would be to go to the vets. I had a leo who was always having seizures. After a month of assist feeding and treatment the vet and I decided it was best to euthanise her. It tore me to pieces watching her pass in his hands. But its better than freezing the poor thing! Could you imagine having to die because you got locked in a freezer, after hypothermia kicks in. It's horrible to imagine.

The fact that some have you have hijacked this thread to simply argue is rather pathetic. As Indigo said multiple times...... Do it via PM.

This is my personal opinion and isnt up for discussion or an arguement


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

bothrops said:


> What has a 2000 year old story book got to do with anything?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing but it is still there, its a good defence too especially if you are a christian like me.

Although if i had a hatchling that was horribly deformed and i didnt think it could survive i would consult a vet


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

marcgroovyge said:


> RIP little guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
:lol2:

....then why bother posting it?


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## marcgroovyge (Apr 3, 2008)

bothrops said:


> :lol2:
> 
> ....then why bother posting it?


Why bother replying to it? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

marcgroovyge said:


> The only way I would go about putting a reptile to sleep would be to go to the vets. I had a leo who was always having seizures. After a month of assist feeding and treatment the vet and I decided it was best to euthanise her. It tore me to pieces watching her pass in his hands. But its better than freezing the poor thing! Could you imagine having to die because you got locked in a freezer, after hypothermia kicks in. It's horrible to imagine.


 
....just for the record, I'm not sure who mentioned freezing? I would NEVER euthanase any animal via freezing. It is one of the most *IN*humane methods of euthanasia....still, thats a whole other thread.


I'm sorry for the upset you experienced, but that doesn't mean that euthanising deformed reptiles at birth is wrong, heartless, evil, insensitive, immoral, unethical or in anyway wrong.

:grouphug:


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## marcgroovyge (Apr 3, 2008)

bothrops said:


> I'm sorry for the upset you experienced,
> :grouphug:


Thing is its the different level feeling when you have spent the time in a dark corner hand feeding a animal. Taking the upmost care day in day out in hope that they will get better. I gave my girl a chance unfortunately her brain wasnt fit enough for us to allow her to carry on having fits and being stuck on her side or back because the muscles in her body would just completely cease up. I still feel if theres hope go for it! If not do the right thing. As much pain as it gave me I'm glad I helped my lil one


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## xsmithx2 (Oct 24, 2007)

ok people this thread wasnt to post arguments and that.

stop arguing that the poor little gecko died please, of the geckos state, stop arguing


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## gal gecko (Sep 20, 2009)

:bash:

Reading all that made my head hurt!!

Sorry for your loss hun xx

this will always be one of those threads where a debate will get heated, at the end of the day some people find it hard not to get attatched to their animals and will try everything in their power to not take the animal to the vets to be put down, doesn't make them cruel... just human!!!! In the end the right thing will always be done by the owners (majority of the time anyway) 

Have fun with all your little ones xx


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Not every Reptile with a disability should e put down some on this are 20 odd years old and all by 3 are still here and doing very very well in fact two of y most healthy lizards are disabled fat tails.

take a while to load but will load up  
*click me *Smilebox Playback

Paula


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

naz_pixie said:


> you posted this while i was typing, it is exactly what i was trying to say.. although we may fool ourselfs that by keeping it alive we are helping the animal but you realy arnt.. doing so in cases like this is purely human selfishness...
> 
> im not saying never help.. i worked with rescue animals for many years and the most important thing i learnt is when helping is good for/saveing the animal/species and when your only doing it for your own more selfish reasons.. the second should never occur.
> 
> ironicaly to do whats best and show real care often means takeing a step back and looking at things more "coldly"


 
:no1:
bravo!

THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL


too many people that are rescuing / trying to save deformed animals these days have saviour symdrome.. an animal should be given a chance to fight with some help.. but theres a stage too far and if you dont know what that is.. then you risk prolonging suffering ... 

edited to add... i didnt see the post about it dying sorry,


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## KerryLou (Aug 19, 2009)

Molly75 said:


> Not every Reptile with a disability should e put down some on this are 20 odd years old and all by 3 are still here and doing very very well in fact two of y most healthy lizards are disabled fat tails.
> 
> take a while to load but will load up
> *click me *Smilebox Playback
> ...


Thanks for that Molly, Im now blubbering like a baby


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

KerryLou said:


> Thanks for that Molly, Im now blubbering like a baby


 Aww bless


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

sparkle said:


> :no1:
> bravo!
> 
> THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL
> ...


I do actually agree but what about those who have saviour syndrome as called I don't 24 years has taught me to be tough but without a lot of very kind hearted people many of those who can and do survive and do well would have been put to sleep.

So those who do it for the right reason's I thanks you x
Paula


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Molly75 said:


> I do actually agree but what about those who have saviour syndrome as called I don't 24 years has taught me to be tough but without *a lot of very kind hearted people many of those who can and do survive and do well would have been put to sleep.*
> 
> So those who do it for the right reason's I thanks you x
> Paula


I see your point, but the difference with the latter is that they will not have suffered AT ALL (provided that it is done professionally/humanely) whereas that is the _absolute best possible outcome_ for a disabled/deformed animal but _all the other outcomes_ are slightly less than that (survives with a little suffering), a lot less than that, (survives, but is in pain for every one of those 'many years') or much much worse (suffers horrible pain for weeks/months/years, before finally succumbing to mortality)....

remember, animals (and reptiles in particular) are very very good at hiding pain and suffering (and very good at coping with it too admittedly) and I think it may be slightly niave to assume that a feeding and moving gecko is in no pain or definitely has an acceptable quality of life.

I'm afraid my (some might say cold) head says that humane euthanasia will remove all suffering instantly and therefore there is no grey area. Keeping the animal alive has a good chance of potentially causing it more suffering, creating a grey area.

Therefore, option 1 is the only option.

(Again, just my opinion)

Cheers

Andy


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