# royal started being fussy!



## stevenb95 (Apr 23, 2012)

hi there
i have had my female royal for about 3 months now and up till the last 3 weeks she has been a amazing strike feeder , now she shows signs of intrest in the defrost rat but after a couple of minutes just goes away from it so i have been dropping the rat in her rub and leaving her alone and she then eats it . im aware that royals are fussy eating and i have exspected this but is is strage that she went from an agressive strike feeder to a drop feeder. is this just typical royal behaviour and is there anything i can do to bring her back to stike feeding?


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

Heya, well you are lucky she is eating at least. Check for possible injuries as she may not strike due to tender areas etc. you ale sure the food is to the temp of what it would be alive (room temp should be fine..if not pop in warm water depending on how you defrost) and maybe try tap training. Give her rub or viv a few taps to get her attention...then lower food in. She should associate the sound with food and be ready to strike. As long as she looks healthy and eats fine then you have a behaved royal


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## stevenb95 (Apr 23, 2012)

thanks for the reply . i defrost my rats in warm water anyway . she hasn't got any visible damage to her that i can see . ill give ur tap method a go and see if it does the job on her next feed :2thumb: and as you said at least shes feeding


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

Ive found that if a good strike feeder royal goes off food, all you need to do is keep offering food and they will eat the same way again when they want to, they pretty much all will refuse food now and then whether its briefly or for a longer period, that's just part of their nature.

I would ignore the advice about injuries and tap training. :?


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## claireleone (Nov 4, 2011)

*royal*



Dave Balls said:


> Ive found that if a good strike feeder royal goes off food, all you need to do is keep offering food and they will eat the same way again when they want to, they pretty much all will refuse food now and then whether its briefly or for a longer period, that's just part of their nature.
> 
> I would ignore the advice about injuries and tap training. :?


Iwas told when i bought my het you bred him dave ? - anyway wether you did or not id just like to say hes a glutton who eats even in shed , so if you did produce him id like to thank you for his appetite


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

'Tap training' refers generally to using touch to cancel the snakes feeding response so it becomes 'handleable'... i've never seen it refer to trying to get a snake _*to*_ strike...


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

I wouldn't really call this being fussy, it's still feeding at the end of the day :2thumb:. Snakes don't hear like we do but hear by vibration so by tapping the viv/RUB you will possibly only scare it. Just carry on drop feeding it as you are, i've had many change from strike feeding to drop feeding. So long as they are eating i wouldn't worry too much how they eat.


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## ZanderP (Oct 10, 2011)

Nope not strange atall! My girl was a consistent feeder for almost 2 years, even in shed! And then she wouldn't even drop feed,, and started only taking every other month, moved her to a bigger RUB and now she's started taking every feed, don't wanna jinx myself though.. And to confirm it, yes it is typical royal behaviour  They don't read the caresheets like we do, its better to read her behaviour than anything. She'll start eating properly when she wants to,, Royals being fussy is an understatement for sure! haha


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## GMAN79 (May 12, 2012)

my male royal went the other way lol when i bought him the guy told me that he has never been a strike feeder and has always taken when left alone with the food but after about 5 weeks of trying he finally struck and now strikes every time


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## Madhouse5 (Jun 6, 2011)

i found defrosting the rats next to there viv -rub helps get them in the mood as they smell the pray before you offer it , she just worked out i am getting this anyway and why bother working hard to get my meal when it just left for me to eat anyway lol i had two drop feeders fed every time never missed a feed all the time i had them so as long as she eating not a problem


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## stevenb95 (Apr 23, 2012)

thanks for the replys guys. i was a debating about the hole tapping because i know people do it to snape the snake out of there feeding mood to make them more handable . as most of you have said she is feeding so im not to worried and i will be moving her rub size up soon anyway so im will see how that goes . its feeding day today so i will see if i can stop her being a lazy royal:lol2:. also is there a rule of how long you should leave a df rat in the rub with her before you take it out(if she doesnt eat it )


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## Madmonk (Apr 30, 2009)

*Fussy feeder*

Sit back relax and don't panic

When you have a male not fed for 7 months then you start looking for reasons.(Still thinks its breeding time:bash
Welcome to the world of royals.


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## mrcarlxx (May 1, 2009)

I wouldn't even worry about it man, they eat when they are hungry...


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

Dave Balls said:


> Ive found that if a good strike feeder royal goes off food, all you need to do is keep offering food and they will eat the same way again when they want to, they pretty much all will refuse food now and then whether its briefly or for a longer period, that's just part of their nature.
> 
> I would ignore the advice about injuries and tap training. :?


Reasons for ignoring?


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Jenovah Fitness said:


> Reasons for ignoring?


I'd like to know these too, the advice you gave is certainly not bad, why it should be ignored is a mystery to me.


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

SexyBear77 said:


> I'd like to know these too, the advice you gave is certainly not bad, why it should be ignored is a mystery to me.


Thankyou  

I understand the opinion but that's his own, but never advise people to ignore other advice, tap training may not work for some but it definitely helped in situations and why would you not check for injuries :S?


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

mstypical said:


> 'Tap training' refers generally to using touch to cancel the snakes feeding response so it becomes 'handleable'... i've never seen it refer to trying to get a snake _*to*_ strike...


 
I'm no expert on royals as I don't have my own, yet! However I was under the impression, from what I've read, that "Tap Training" is used as you've said to help snakes become handleable but to use this to get a snake to strike out at their prey???? Never seen it refered to feeding.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Most of my snakes come out when they hear the hairdryer going as I sometimes use it to warm up the food. They do associate things with feeding and this can engage hunting/hunger behaviours. 

As long as you are not banging on the sides of the tub I can't see that they would be that scared, after all, taking the lid off of an RUB or sliding across the glass doors in a viv probably makes just as much vibration as a tap, and those 2 things don't seem to scare the inhabitants....


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

SexyBear77 said:


> Most of my snakes come out when they hear the hairdryer going as I sometimes use it to warm up the food. ....


I always smile when I read people use a hairdryer to warm up their mice/rats, I've never done this as I prefer my hairdryer for well the purpose it's meant for lol, I either warm mine on the oil filled radiator (might be summer but it's cold up here lol) or I dip the mouse head in boiling water, dry it of & my snakes take it no problem, I wouldn't tap on the sides of their rub/faun tho but that's just me, the only thing mine associate with feeding is the smell of mouse when it's held right in front of them, mine need no more encouragement.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

AilsaM said:


> I either warm mine on the oil filled radiator


I always smile when I hear of someone doing this, because I know one day they'll forget about it, and have to clear up the resultant mess.


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

SexyBear77 said:


> Most of my snakes come out when they hear the hairdryer going as I sometimes use it to warm up the food. They do associate things with feeding and this can engage hunting/hunger behaviours.
> 
> As long as you are not banging on the sides of the tub I can't see that they would be that scared, after all, taking the lid off of an RUB or sliding across the glass doors in a viv probably makes just as much vibration as a tap, and those 2 things don't seem to scare the inhabitants....


Yeah, I use it to stop em snapping an when you do it, you notice the behaviour is totally different to when you go to handle them. So if you do tap, they will get ready to strike due to the noises they hear. And yeah only little taps, I do 5 sharp taps with my nail (not going hulk style on the RUB lol) and she's out in strike position straight away.


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## AilsaM (May 18, 2011)

SexyBear77 said:


> I always smile when I hear of someone doing this, because I know one day they'll forget about it, and have to clear up the resultant mess.


Lol am not likely to forget, it's only for a few minutes anyway :lol2:


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

mstypical said:


> 'Tap training' refers generally to using touch to cancel the snakes feeding response so it becomes 'handleable'... i've never seen it refer to trying to get a snake _*to*_ strike...


Sorry, missed this. That is what it is for but I dunno if you have tried it(?) but it certainly is good for making them easy to handle so they don't think they are getting fed each time you open the rub or viv. I suggested it because I have done it with mine for 2 years now, not only is she friendly but you certainly notice her responses to the noise. If she hears the tap then she gets ready to feed, in this case, strike. It's a Pavlov classical conditioning trick...if the snake learns to associate the two it MAY be ready to strike for feed after. But like I said it's a 'you could try' test but I also said 'if its healthy and feeding then it's fine'. I have never seen the method used but it's what I would do to try it out only based on the results I gave seen from my own and how behaviour changes etc. just thinking outside the box.


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

Jenovah Fitness said:


> Reasons for ignoring?





SexyBear77 said:


> I'd like to know these too, the advice you gave is certainly not bad, why it should be ignored is a mystery to me.


Out of hundreds of people i have spoken to who keep thousands of royals between them its just not something i have heard that people do, how many have you trained this way out of interest? Lots? 

Some of my royals come out for the hair-dryer, the same royals will often be out looking for food when the hair-dryer is not on too, its because they are hungry.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Dave Balls said:


> Out of hundreds of people i have spoken to who keep thousands of royals between them its just not something i have heard that people do, how many have you trained this way out of interest? Lots?
> 
> Some of my royals come out for the hair-dryer, the same royals will often be out looking for food when the hair-dryer is not on too, its because they are hungry.


So because you haven't heard of it before it can be ignored because its not part of the canon acoording to Dave?

Jesus wept.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Dave Balls said:


> how many have you trained this way out of interest? Lots?


How many? Absolutely none. Still doesn't mean I should ignore it as a possibility.

And the hairdryer elicits a hunger response from about 20 of my 23 snakes. I'd say that's more than just coincidence


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

Its not necessarily royals, you can do it with any animal. Read up on classical training and you will understand. I have quite a few snakes that I do this with, it's a known method. Which I advise you to do if if ever you have a feeding issue btw. It's also recommended by a fair few big rep breeders and reptile vets to help with feeding issues. 
I definitely suggest reading up on pavlovs theory of classical conditioning, it may help you understand the psychological connections with animals and food. If your animals feed fine without it then well done, not all my reps feed this way at all but my point is, just because you have never tried it does not mean its wrong.


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## stevenb95 (Apr 23, 2012)

good news guys and girls ... she just hammerd that rat! i defrosted the rat right next to her rub and i also "brained" the rat. she was ready to go for it before i even put it into her rub, wicked feeding response:2thumb: 

thanks for all the help and advise i really appreciate it :mrgreen:


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

stevenb95 said:


> good news guys and girls ... she just hammerd that rat! i defrosted the rat right next to her rub and i also "brained" the rat. she was ready to go for it before i even put it into her rub, wicked feeding response:2thumb:
> 
> thanks for all the help and advise i really appreciate it :mrgreen:


Ah that is good news! Sorry for the disturbance on your thread also


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## stevenb95 (Apr 23, 2012)

all part of the fun !:2thumb:


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> So because you haven't heard of it before it can be ignored because its not part of the canon acoording to Dave?
> 
> Jesus wept.


Thats not the case at all. You have someone asking how to make his snake strike again, simply offering food in the same way is the answer, royals are fussy buggers but it will come round by itself in most cases. 

Ive had various fussy feeders myself, i tried every method people post on here, 99.9% of the time i got the same reaction, ziltch, every single snake came round when it wanted to. 

I was suggesting it could be ignored simply because its not something that royals keepers, in general, do. Certainly not as a method to make a snake that has previously struck fed strike again. 



SexyBear77 said:


> And the hairdryer elicits a hunger response from about 20 of my 23 snakes. I'd say that's more than just coincidence


Like i said i get the same reaction, its not coincidence at all, its your hungry snakes reacting to food being prepared in the room, the other week my hair-dryer broke, i warmed the rats with hot water instead and most of them were sat looking for food as per usual , go figure..



Jenovah Fitness said:


> Its not necessarily royals, you can do it with any animal. Read up on classical training and you will understand. I have quite a few snakes that I do this with, it's a known method. Which I advise you to do if if ever you have a feeding issue btw. It's also recommended by a fair few big rep breeders and reptile vets to help with feeding issues.
> I definitely suggest reading up on pavlovs theory of classical conditioning, it may help you understand the psychological connections with animals and food. If your animals feed fine without it then well done, not all my reps feed this way at all but my point is, just because you have never tried it does not mean its wrong.


Can you point out where i said it was wrong please? Just because i think something isnt relevant in this case doesnt mean im not aware of it, i said he should ignore it and keep offering food in the same way and his royal will come round, i very much doubt taping on the cage would have made it decide to strike again quicker. 

Just to recap, the dude asked how to get his royal to strike again, i said keep offering the same and it will come around by itself (based on my experience of several "fussy" feeders).

You said, check for injuries and tap on the glass before you feed it.

Im still convinced my advice was good and yours wasnt very relevant.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

"Not what I would try first" and "irrelevant" aren't the same thing. 

Ego much?


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> "Not what I would try first" and "irrelevant" aren't the same thing.


I wouldnt try it all tbh. 

Do you really think 'tap on the glas before you feed it' is good advice to a newbie snake keeper asking that question?



Lord Vetinari said:


> Ego much?


Touche. :2thumb:


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Dave Balls said:


> I wouldnt try it all tbh.
> 
> Do you really think 'tap on the glas before you feed it' is good advice to a newbie snake keeper asking that question?
> 
> ...


Pavlov conditioning isn't a new thing. I have seen far far worse advice given out.


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Pavlov conditioning isn't a new thing. I have seen far far worse advice given out.





> and maybe try tap training. Give her rub or viv a few taps to get her attention...then lower food in. She should associate the sound with food and be ready to strike


Give the glass a tap and she should be ready to strike. Despite the fact that she hasnt struck for the last few feeds. Just give the glass a tap and she will be ready to strike. 

Nothing about pavlov conditioning. Not, this might an idea..... But give the glass a tap and she will be ready to strike.

And far worse advice being given out still doesnt make that answer relevant to the questions that was asked. 

I rest my case. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Dave Balls said:


> Give the glass a tap and she should be ready to strike. Despite the fact that she hasnt struck for the last few feeds. Just give the glass a tap and she will be ready to strike.
> 
> Nothing about pavlov conditioning. Not, this might an idea..... But give the glass a tap and she will be ready to strike.
> 
> ...


Personally I see nothing wrong with the advice as I have used it with my hognose (both of them). 

Also, there are way too many 'maybes' and 'shoulds' in Jens post to suggest that she was giving it as black and whites causality.


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Personally I see nothing wrong with the advice as I have used it with my hognose (both of them).
> 
> Also, there are way too many 'maybes' and 'shoulds' in Jens post to suggest that she was giving it as black and whites causality.


Fair enough. Perhaps i should have said 'im not sure the tap training idea is necessary, just keep offering the same and she should come round' 

If the abrupt nature of my well meaning reply offended anyone, i apologise.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Dave Balls said:


> Like i said i get the same reaction, its not coincidence at all, its your hungry snakes reacting to food being prepared in the room, the other week my hair-dryer broke, i warmed the rats with hot water instead and most of them were sat looking for food as per usual , go figure..


The hairdryer gets that response *without* food of any description being present-they associate the sound/vibrations with feeding time.

Pavlovian conditioning at it's finest.


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## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

SexyBear77 said:


> The hairdryer gets that response *without* food of any description being present-they associate the sound/vibrations with feeding time.
> 
> Pavlovian conditioning at it's finest.


Do you think it would work as a method of getting a non striking royal to strike again?

:whistling2:


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## Jenovah Fitness (Dec 5, 2009)

Dave...my point (which I pm'd you about and you answered with LOL) is what makes your advice more correct? Whether you have a tonne of snakes or not, I have had snake from breeders that are in terrible condition.You say you speak from experience....and what? You think I just came up with it myself?.....I was giving advice which was given to me in the Same sort of situation. Why you wouldn't check your reps for injuries meaning lifted scales or infections...which occur more than I think you are aware of) is beyond me. As a breeder you should be checking your collection often...:S. I also think your advice was and is valid...advice is there to help not to always be taken. I may be wrong but an attitude like yours will get you into trouble one day...no one likes an inflated ego. Other peoples advice may one day come in handy and for you to just say ignore it is probably the most pig like, egotistical and idiotic thing I have ever seen. I won't tell people to ignore your advice as you prob give good advice (apart from advising to ignore others when you clearly have no idea what I meant and/or read up on it) however, I would tell people to ignore your lack of manners.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Dave Balls said:


> Do you think it would work as a method of getting a non striking royal to strike again?
> 
> :whistling2:


Not sure. 

I like to keep an open mind though


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

Quite a few references to tap training can be found on several different websites. I will point out the examples here. 

Care Sheet - Python retiulatus - World of Retics



> Reticulated pythons are generally very tame snakes with alot of handling, but do get very food orientated so it is therefore best to hook the snake out of the viv. Another useful method to remove a snake from a viv is tap training, this is where you rub the snake gently on the back of the head when handling with a soft object, this helps the snake to tell the difference between feeding time and handling time.


Several references in the below url:
Anybody else do this when you go to pick up your snake? [Archive] - MonsterFishKeepers.com



> all my bigguns are tap trained.
> when its feeding time i literally open the door chuck the rabbit in and close it. all done in 2seconds.
> iv only ever been bitten once and that was a feeding response, was also when i didnt do the above lol.





> when it comes to all 3 of my snakes, I use a different way of opening the tank.
> If I do it quietly, it means he/she is just getting out, if its loud, then its feeding time.
> I also tap on the glass a few times to get his/her attention and then wave the mouse infront of them, so they also know it means feeding time.
> When it comes to just cleaning or getting them out I rub further near their tail so I have more of a reaction time if they were to strike me.





> Alot of the time all it takes me is a tap on the head from a snake pole and I can reach right in a grab whoever without getting bit. Only snake it doesnt work on is my female LTC s.d. retic but she just likes to strike and its not a food response kind of issue. Hope this helps you and your friend


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/335699-tap-training-2.html



> I find tapping on the side of their cage and hauling them out works fine, even for the big snakes. If you feed your larger snakes outside the viv you wont inncur so many problems and be able to handle them fine.
> 
> Confidence and swiftfulness works best for me.


http://conditionedemotionalresponce.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/conditionedemotional-response-tap.html



> This method is not 100%, but I have used it with many different species, in my honest opinion it has worked very well with the majority the animals I have kept.


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