# R.I's with Royals



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

Hi all,

Noob to the forum, but had royals for 3 years now. Did have 4 (growing to 2 breeding pairs) but lost my albino at the weekend.

Just had an RI sweep through all the royals quicker than the clap. They have been to the vets, been on baytril for 4 -6 weeks, all in quarantine, just started to see signs of recovery and my albino died in the night. Was suspicious of a lump about 1-2cm long just above his lungs which appeared suddenly. Now my newest addition (Fader Pastel approx 6-9mnths old) is arching over backwards with mouth open periodically, but its mouth is clear and clean?

Vet doesn't have any further advice or treatment; am I being overly paranoid about losing another snake or can anyone offer any tips?

This is the first illness any of them have had since I started keeping royals.


----------



## Madhouse5 (Jun 6, 2011)

Sink or Swim said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Noob to the forum, but had royals for 3 years now. Did have 4 (growing to 2 breeding pairs) but lost my albino at the weekend.
> 
> ...


have you read about nebulizing F10 its a old post but here you go http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/77238-some-help-ris.html#post1108495

before you try anything i would check with you vet first 

Paul


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks for the advice Paul.... looking into it.

I've also just been advised to crank up the heat which apparently helps the baytril work better/quicker?

Inclined to think there's something in this - the snakes have been feeling colder to touch than they normally would, but I am worried about baking them?

Have you heard anything similar?


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

What are your hot and cool end temps at just now?


----------



## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

fuzzielady said:


> What are your hot and cool end temps at just now?



Was just going to ask this. RI's usually occur when temps are too low, Royals need to be kept at between 32*C & 34*C :2thumb:, with an ambient temp of between 26*C & 28*C.


----------



## Madhouse5 (Jun 6, 2011)

hi do you have a night and day temp with your royal if so just leave it on the day temp hot spot of 90 80-85 ambient take the water bowl out and offer every day with fresh water then take it out , how is the royal doing did you talk to the vet about a nebuliser 

Paul


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

Got it set to ambient temp of 90, constantly. Very positive response from snakes - no coughing, wheezing or sniffing at all now. Vet is non-comittal about F10 but is getting back to me after some research. Not really able to get a hot and cold temp reading (3ft tank); been operating on night and day temps, dropping from 90 to 70/75. Humidity has dropped to 8-10%


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

how do you know your ambient temp is a constant 90? If you are using the stat as a guide they're not accurate. You are better using a digital thermometer. If you get one of these, you can place the probe up the hot end, and see what the temp is there.


You say your humidity is 8-10%? The typical room humidity is 50-60% humidity. What are you measuring it with?


----------



## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

Nebulising with F10 is unlikely to fix this for you, it might help but should be used in conjunction with antibiotics, if your vet doesnt know what F10 is i would get another vet - i spoke to a couple of vets about it recently and they both knew what i was talking about instantly and had used the method themselves.

For it to spread to that many animals something is very wrong with your husbandry, if you are practising good hygiene it should not spread from animal to animal. It does sound like your ambients are too cold, which in turn will lead to weakened immune systems, and inevitably infections.


----------



## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

70*C-75*C is way too low, this will be where the problem is. You need to have a hot spot of around 32*C-34*C & a cool end of 26*C-28*C. You can attain this quite easily in a 3ft viv. Use a ceramic bulb or reptile radiator in one end for the hot spot & the rooms ambient temp will give you your cool end temps :2thumb:.


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

They were in one viv prior to the outbreak and there is nothing wrong with the hygeine aspect, thanks. Now using a heat mat at the cool end on constantly and a 60W heat bulb at the other, again on constantly. Bearing in mind this is only a 3 ft viv, over 2 days the temp will not go above 34-35. Have double checked the readings with 2 different thermometers and they are both pretty much the same. All pet shops in my area have said they should be cooling down at night, which was why I was turning off one of the heat sources (as would happen in the wild) and thats the natural decline in temp gradient down to 20-25. If as you say the temps are all wrong, how have they been fine for 3 years?


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

Using all this already, but what are you using for humidity? I have been in a room at 35% humidity and its really damp/sweaty. Have only ever had readings in viv of 50-60% by spraying water in viv a few times a day when shedding cycle is on. Admittedly my hum meter is a cheap plastic stick on one, but the thermometer is the same and works quite accurately. Still saving for "going digital" across the board and been advised to keep humidity down as this can make ri worse?


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Sink or Swim said:


> They were in one viv prior to the outbreak and there is nothing wrong with the hygeine aspect, thanks. Now using a heat mat at the cool end on constantly and a 60W heat bulb at the other, again on constantly. Bearing in mind this is only a 3 ft viv, over 2 days the temp will not go above 34-35. Have double checked the readings with 2 different thermometers and they are both pretty much the same. All pet shops in my area have said they should be cooling down at night, which was why I was turning off one of the heat sources (as would happen in the wild) and thats the natural decline in temp gradient down to 20-25. If as you say the temps are all wrong, how have they been fine for 3 years?





Sink or Swim said:


> Using all this already, but what are you using for humidity? I have been in a room at 35% humidity and its really damp/sweaty. Have only ever had readings in viv of 50-60% by spraying water in viv a few times a day when shedding cycle is on. Admittedly my hum meter is a cheap plastic stick on one, but the thermometer is the same and works quite accurately. Still saving for "going digital" across the board and been advised to keep humidity down as this can make ri worse?


 
We are only trying to help. Something is obviously wrong or they wouldn't have ri's. Regardless of how long things have been fine, they obviously aren't now. Otherwise one snake won't have died and another 3 being at risk of the same. 

Why bother asking, then become hostile at the people trying to help you. A lot of us have more experience than, 1 or 2 snakes, for a couple of years. You obviously don't want the help we are attempting to give. For me I would rather have answers and live snakes, than a pat on the back and dead ones. Sometimes you have to accept some fault for the sake of your animals.

35% humidity would only be damp and sweaty in a boiling hot room. The same humidity in a cooler room would be comfortable. But hey, what do I know. For the record, I don't actually measure the humidity. Normal room humidity is fine. I was only asking as you mentioned it. Was going to let you know the dial ones are also not accurate, just like the thermometers. You can get a digital thermometer for £2 on ebay


----------



## Dave Balls (Jan 26, 2011)

I seriously doubt humidity is an issue, your night temp drop caused the issue and the snakes all being in the same viv caused it to spread. Simples.


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

*Hostile?????????????????????????*

I always appreciate constructive advice from as many sources as possible, being mindful that everyone has a different opinion and interpretation. I wasn't being "hostile", merely asking more questions when information provided wasn't clearly understood.
However, its hard not to be hostile after that little rant. Just because you may have alot more experience does not give you the right to make sweeping, unsubstantiated remarks about prefering to have dead snakes and a pat on the back?
Might I suggest you have read far too much into a QUESTION and the provision of FURTHER INFORMATION to gain CLEARER answers and suggest you need to tone down your tongue a bit too. After all, its a poor teacher that refuses to learn from the student, too.


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

The stick on dials are only any good as a guide ie huge temp spikes or drops. You are better off with digital ones. With royals, humidity is only normally an issue if you get shedding problems. Easily fixed with a larger water bowl or moving it closer to the heat source. Some say, up your humidity if they have an ri, other say lower it. 


Just because your snakes have appeared to be fine for 3 years, it doesn't make any difference. They are obviously not alright now. Lots of things can contribute to this. Stress and incorrect temps are usually the cause. We have had a really cold spell, this drops your ambient temp so your heat sources struggle to hold your temps. Incorrect husbandry, bad hygiene ie not washing your hands/using hand gel between snakes will cause it to spread. Did you have them all in the same viv? 


I don't understand why you have a heat source at both ends of the viv. Are these both on stats? If you want overheat heat why not use a ceramic(with a guard) this would give you better overall temps and doesn't give off light, which means it can be on 24/7 without light disturbing you.


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

Hi Paul,
Vet got back to me - a bit of confusion occured about how to nebulise F10 for snakes as they only supply nebulisers generally used on people. Do you use this type of kit or is there a better way that you know of?

Cheers


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

Always had heat mat at one end, IR heat bulb at the other, but alternated which was on. This was the set-up I was told to do when I first bought the snakes at pet shop to create a temp gradient and never changed it. I had just moved 3 of them into a larger viv (5x3x2.5, heated with a 150W + 100W IR bulbs from exorep), with the smallest in quarantine. 
Thinking about it and guessing your answer, a recent house move would cause stress to them?
Have to concede I allowed the temp to drop too much at night, which has been rectified. Observed improvements within 24 hrs (small consolation to the guilt factor which was immense).
Will be replacing all thermometers and heat sources etc with ceramics asap, but loss of job main reason for delay.
Starting to analysis every aspect of recent care - mine do like to roam around the living room from time to time and just thinking could RI have been picked up off things like furniture or skirting boards and transferred between them that way?


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Sink or Swim said:


> Hi Paul,
> Vet got back to me - a bit of confusion occured about how to nebulise F10 for snakes as they only supply nebulisers generally used on people. Do you use this type of kit or is there a better way that you know of?
> 
> Cheers


 
You can use a reptile fogger. I have the zoo med one. I don't know if the others are as good. That and a bottle of F10 will help. Mix it 1:250 or 4ml to a litre of water, nebulise for 15 minutes a couple of times a day. It won't sort it on it's own. You will need to make sure your temps are good as well, if anything closer to the higher temp range ie 34c, you need to have to make sure it is accurate though, much above that will cause neurological problems. Which can be fatal or worse still, permanent. Anti-biotics will help also. Ask the vet if they can use ceftazidime instead. Royals apparently respond better with it. Has the vet taken swabs of the mucus. 

If you use the fogger, you are better doing it in a big tub as it can get very wet. While you nebulise snakes use the F10 to clean out the viv, including water bowl and any hides etc.


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Sink or Swim said:


> Always had heat mat at one end, IR heat bulb at the other, but alternated which was on. This was the set-up I was told to do when I first bought the snakes at pet shop to create a temp gradient and never changed it. I had just moved 3 of them into a larger viv (5x3x2.5, heated with a 150W + 100W IR bulbs from exorep), with the smallest in quarantine.
> Thinking about it and guessing your answer, a recent house move would cause stress to them?
> Have to concede I allowed the temp to drop too much at night, which has been rectified. Observed improvements within 24 hrs (small consolation to the guilt factor which was immense).
> Will be replacing all thermometers and heat sources etc with ceramics asap, but loss of job main reason for delay.
> Starting to analysis every aspect of recent care - mine do like to roam around the living room from time to time and just thinking could RI have been picked up off things like furniture or skirting boards and transferred between them that way?


 
Could be the stress of the move. Could be the stress of sharing a viv. Royals are easily spooked. Could be the night time drop. Could be alot of things. If it was me I would move them into their own, individual tubs. Otherwise, if 2 improve and one doesn't, it will get passed to the other 2 again. I think you will struggle, to get the 3 of them better, while they share.


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

This is the one I have. You can shop about for price but this one shows the fogger and which F10

F10 Repti Fogger special bundleBig Reptile World for all snake, lizard, tortoise, turtle and amphibian books, supplies and supplementsF10 Repti Fogger special bundle


----------



## Madhouse5 (Jun 6, 2011)

you can use the human one just run a tube into the viv or set it up on a tub , the one above would work in the same way 

Paul


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

Yes, swab tests came back showing that RI was sensitive to the treatment, but they have been on it for 5 weeks now (first course lasted 4 weeks and lost the albino a few days after course ended, despite showing good signs of recovery which were verified with the vet, too). All were quarantined immediately on first sign of infection in one, but that was obviously too late to prevent its spread. The new one has only just gone symptomatic and been on baytril for just under one week. All had rub's disinfected weekly and water bowls are changed daily. The temp's have been increased to constant 34-35 degrees C.
I know you advised on ceramic bulbs as heat source, but is it also still ok to use the red IR heat bulbs (just didn't want to put a secondary light source in) or is it necessary?
Cheers for those other tips; that bit of kit looks just the thing.


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Sink or Swim said:


> Yes, swab tests came back showing that RI was sensitive to the treatment, but they have been on it for 5 weeks now (first course lasted 4 weeks and lost the albino a few days after course ended, despite showing good signs of recovery which were verified with the vet, too). All were quarantined immediately on first sign of infection in one, but that was obviously too late to prevent its spread. The new one has only just gone symptomatic and been on baytril for just under one week. All had rub's disinfected weekly and water bowls are changed daily. The temp's have been increased to constant 34-35 degrees C.
> I know you advised on ceramic bulbs as heat source, but is it also still ok to use the red IR heat bulbs (just didn't want to put a secondary light source in) or is it necessary?
> Cheers for those other tips; that bit of kit looks just the thing.


 
As long as you have a hot end that reaches 34, (not sure I would risk 35) and you have enough of a temp gradient to allow them to thermo-regulate properly. If you are using a bulb, or ceramic, it has to have a guard on it. They don't actually need a light source. Your temps are the most important thing. If the RI is sensitive to the treatment being given, it has to be down to your temps. If you are using those plastic dial thermometers, please get a digital one. They are much more accurate and, for £2, can save your snakes from ri's and neurological issues caused by too high temps.

You need to disinfect rubs and bowls, inside and out, daily.


How often was the baytril given and how was it given? Injection, liquid, tablet?


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

*Digi Therms*

Checked these out but confused by one thing. none of them appear to connect to stats directly. Question is do you still have to rely on stat settings only and use digi therms as a double check and readjust the stat every time manually? Just seems a bit counter-productive, or is there a more reliable stat which would do everything automatically based on therm readings?
Cheers.
p.s..
Antibiotic was injections (every 3 days) for the first 2 weeks course for one snake, but switched to liquid oral baytril after that for all snakes, administered daily. Seen better responses with the oral method and less kicking off from snakes about being stabbed with a needle.


----------



## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

If you are using a ceramic you are better with a pulse stat or a dimming stat. If you are using a light emitting bulb you will need a dimming stat. You adjust the stat until you have the temp you want, hot spot(basking temp) and cool end checked with a digital thermometer. Once set they won't need re-adjusted. Just periodically checked to make sure temps are still ok. No matter what is wrong, the first thing you should double check is your temps. It is usually the first thing any of us ask if you need help. 

Never ever rely of stat dial setting to be accurate. Always double check with a digital thermometer.

The plug from your ceramic/bulb/heatmat plugs into the stat. You position your stat probe near the heat, where ever gives you the correct hot and cool end temps. You check the temps on the floor of the viv/tub, diectly where the heat hits ie below ceramic/bulb or directly on top of heatmat.


----------



## jfresh (Apr 4, 2012)

Remember with dimmers, if the room temps fluctuate you may need to make some small adjustments here and there.
I prefer heat pads because my stat will control the temps when my house temps change so there's no adjustments needed. Also they last longer than a bulb, and not too pricey


----------



## Sink or Swim (Mar 2, 2012)

*Recovery!*

Just thought you'd like to know that 2 out of 3 have recovered and have both had their first meal in 2 months (one hadn't eaten for nearly 6 months). The last one is getting there, but not quite, although she is very active again. Thanks to everyone for all the tips !


----------

