# RiSE Introduction



## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

*RiSE (Re-Growth In Struggling Exotics)
A Better World Is On The Horizon *(Stapline)

Hi everyone,

My name is Jason Smith and I am currently in the process of starting a business, aided by The Princes Trust Enterprise Program. 

The business will be called RiSE. I can't divulge too much information as this is also an investment for The Trust and they wish me to keep some aspects secretive. 
I will run an amphibian captive breeding program to produce healthy specimens to the UK pet trade while donating some of the proceeds to conservation projects around the globe. I already have great contacts in amphibian conservation industry such as an director of a global amphibian organisation and also a Ph.D scientist that runs a effective project in Ecuador, (they have found 4 new species of tree frog this year already), and they are helping me in any way they can, which include talks into bringing new species into the UK trade.

I will also stock equipment and livefoods as I realise it will not be benifical as a business just to sell live animals.

I am hoping that the members of RFUK can help with my market research as without your opinions the business will not be able to run effectively.
I have put a link to my survey below and I hope that everyone will participate. It take less than 2 minutes to complete and is really simple.

*RiSE Questionnaire*
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/S3HFGV6

Thank you for your time and attention
Jason Smith
RiSE

​


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## Dark Valentino (Mar 15, 2013)

Interesting...

survey done: victory:


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Thank you Dark Valentino


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Done!


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Done !


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Thank you


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Great idea. Can I ask if you will be breeding endangered species? It would be great if you would.


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Patto96 said:


> Great idea. Can I ask if you will be breeding endangered species? It would be great if you would.


Nothing is set in stone at the moment as to what species I will be breeding to start off with as I have to complete my market research but I am in talks with getting new species introduced into the UK trade.

If anyone has any suggesstions as to what they are looking for please do not hesitate to post on this thread.

Thanks for all your cooperation, if everyone can tell your friends about our survey and point them in the right direction much would be obliged.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Done :2thumb:


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Thank you


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Done : victory: sounds really interesting! Do keep us posted as and when you can :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Jason,Can I ask a few basic questions please,I'd ask these of any new guy here keeping darts. What darts do you keep,what food do you culture? Can you show me some pictures please of your vivs and frogs.

Over the course of today I've read pretty much all the posts you have made on most of the forums here,I and my darling keep darts,that is all we keep. I'm not a business,but adore these frogs with some passion. I also know you are restrained by what info you can give out regarding your business,but naturally your experiences with these frogs are not part of that. By and large I don't do market research so haven't filled out the questionaire,but I do try with what little I have to help folks.

Caring deeply about these amazing little frogs,their care in captivity,plus the wild counterparts(conservation),plus having a fair collection of the little blighters on the go is what is fueling said curiosity. I have more than an idea now on what it takes to run a collection,so your answers might give me an incentive to go further,as we have never talked before and I don't know who is behind this, i would like to know more about you and what you do,how many frogs you keep etc. 

thankyou for your time

best

Stu


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

soundstounite said:


> Jason,Can I ask a few basic questions please,I'd ask these of any new guy here keeping darts. What darts do you keep,what food do you culture? Can you show me some pictures please of your vivs and frogs.
> 
> Over the course of today I've read pretty much all the posts you have made on most of the forums here,I and my darling keep darts,that is all we keep. I'm not a business,but adore these frogs with some passion. I also know you are restrained by what info you can give out regarding your business,but naturally your experiences with these frogs are not part of that. By and large I don't do market research so haven't filled out the questionaire,but I do try with what little I have to help folks.
> 
> ...


Hi Stu,

I currently do not have any frogs to breed from and no food to culture, therefore nothing to show. This is purely market research. I cannot start purchasing, breeding and selling till I have an animal establishment licence. When I aquire this licence you can then assume that they are cared for appropriately as you can not get one without a specialist vet to check them over or I can arrange a meeting and you can come and visit when trading is about to commence.

I'm glad that you show a passion for these remarkable creatures and rest assured when I open for trading they will be highly cared for, as I have a number of Ph.D scientists feeding me information from the jungle itself and an global amphibian conservation organisation backing. 

Its great that people are interested and asking questions but some questions I believe in my opinion are best answered with actions and all will become clear in the near future.

Thanks
Jason


Thank you Drayvan


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ok, another question you probably wont need to evade.

Have you EVER actually kept and bred any species of amphibian, most especially poison dart frogs?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> I also know you are restrained by what info you can give out regarding your business,
> 
> Stu


That one comment Stu is what has bloody bells clanging around in my head.



Mike


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Wolfenrook said:


> Ok, another question you probably wont need to evade.
> 
> Have you EVER actually kept and bred any species of amphibian, most especially poison dart frogs?


I have kept a number of amphibians and reptiles and bred a few species but I have not kept or bred dart frogs. This is new to me but as I have said before I have been given all the information needed by relevant sources. Thats not to say I don't wish to here other people's opinions.

I down sized my animals and stopped breeding a few years ago because I found out that without an animal establishment licence it was classed as illegal in certain boroughs, even for a hobbyist. I know it is impossible for local authorities to police everyone but a few people in forums and a personal friend of mine was caught and not only was he in trouble with the local authorities but they passed his information on to the tax office which in turn he was fined a large amount for not declaring what he was earning from selling his young. I didn't want to run the risk.

I know I will not be able to please everyone but I will try my best.


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

frogman955 said:


> That one comment Stu is what has bloody bells clanging around in my head.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike


Stu has read other posts in other forums. I have certain information I can not explain about the company runnings as the Princes Trust has asked I keep these secretive, it is also an investment for them.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I find this very strange , H.M.R.C. , petshop licences and conservation are three totally different subjects.

Whilst I admire your goals your survey seems very basic to be of any substantial use. Can you give us an idea of the species and morphs that you will be working with?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

colinm said:


> I find this very strange , H.M.R.C. , petshop licences and conservation are three totally different subjects.
> 
> Whilst I admire your goals your survey seems very basic to be of any substantial use. Can you give us an idea of the species and morphs that you will be working with?


The only interesting part of his survey Colin is the very first question, where he asks for your email address. Nowhere on that survey do I see a link to a privacy policy, or any information on how he intends to use your email address.

Regarding all of this about "needing an animal establishment license", I have just checked the animal licensing sections of a number of Kent borough council websites, and as far as I can find, this license doesn't actually even exist. Just as an example, here is a link to the relevant section of the Sevenoaks borough council website https://www.sevenoaks.gov.uk/services/business/licence-and-permits/licence-animal.

So, we have a chap who has been high evasive when asked for any real details as to his intent. Claims to have kept amphibians in the past but not dart frogs, but has nothing at present and so can't give any evidence of this, who just made up a license that doesn't even exist.... But he wants us to fill in a survey that seems lacking in purpose beyond asking for your email address, with no privacy policy or details as to how your email address will be used.

I'll let people draw their own conclusions here.

Regards


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

I go to Bewdley for one day.....


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

colinm said:


> I find this very strange , H.M.R.C. , petshop licences and conservation are three totally different subjects.
> 
> Whilst I admire your goals your survey seems very basic to be of any substantial use. Can you give us an idea of the species and morphs that you will be working with?


The survey is the information I need to know. I have had it scripted by a business advisor for the Princes Trust. As I have mentioned in previous replies species are a blank canvas and will not addressed till market research has been completed, but again are open to opinions. 

I was asked a question about my previous pets and I thought I would share my experiences and why I stopped breeding.


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

The questionair gives no really hint at what your doing. I saw this on facebook and seemed a little lost. 

for me this is my hobby I make no money at all but this keeps me happy, im not all for people trying to make a business out of this as before you know it you have books to balance and you will think about profit margins 

its like football its a sport a hobby some peoples love and as soon as money is involved it ruins it 

we have enough people who have a business selling frogs and who are in contact with the people on the front line of conversation I don't think this hobby needs another, we also have enough people ripping frogs from the wild to sell to the pet trade which is wiping out many frogs in the wild..... and we hell don't need anymore of these people lining there pockets


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Wolfenrook said:


> The only interesting part of his survey Colin is the very first question, where he asks for your email address. Nowhere on that survey do I see a link to a privacy policy, or any information on how he intends to use your email address.
> 
> Regarding all of this about "needing an animal establishment license", I have just checked the animal licensing sections of a number of Kent borough council websites, and as far as I can find, this license doesn't actually even exist. Just as an example, here is a link to the relevant section of the Sevenoaks borough council website https://www.sevenoaks.gov.uk/services/business/licence-and-permits/licence-animal.
> 
> ...


It comes under Pet Animals Licence. Like I said before it is different for different boroughs. Animal establishment licensing - Gravesham Borough Council.

If you want me to try and add a disclaimer at the bottom of the survey I'll try? Or if it makes people feel more safer I can do a second survey where you don't have to put your e-mail in. It was just there so when I come onto selecting species I could contact people that were interested.

Thanks Jason


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Having taken a quick look at the survey something strikes me as odd.
For starters I will not be filling it in.
The questions look suspicious to me.
Apart from gathering keepers email addresses.
The questions are very much like what I would expect a member of the A.P.A. to ask.
Who are you and what do you keep and how much do you spend on frogs and where do you buy them.
Sorry mate there are too many question marks hanging over your head.
We don`t know you and you`ve not been on here posting before, that we know of.
And suddenly your on here asking for some personal info.
Anyone who signed that survey, I hope you used a fake email address.

Mike


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

RiSE said:


> It comes under Pet Animals Licence. Like I said before it is different for different boroughs. Animal establishment licensing - Gravesham Borough Council.
> 
> If you want me to try and add a disclaimer at the bottom of the survey I'll try? Or if it makes people feel more safer I can do a second survey where you don't have to put your e-mail in. It was just there so when I come onto selecting species I could contact people that were interested.
> 
> Thanks Jason


 I think people would really like to know what your planning on doing and how this "business" is going to help our beloved frogs?? a lot of us here support things like tesoros because there doing something incredible for our hobby


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> The questionair gives no really hint at what your doing. I saw this on facebook and seemed a little lost.
> 
> for me this is my hobby I make no money at all but this keeps me happy, im not all for people trying to make a business out of this as before you know it you have books to balance and you will think about profit margins
> 
> ...


The questionnaire is not to inform people of what I am doing. The questionnaire is for me to collect information to know which direction to take the business and how viable it is. I think people are missing the point here, this is not a get rich quick scheme, this is a business that will help provide aid for conservation projects around the world. If you anyone that is involved in conservation they will tell you there is not enough money assigned to them. 

I can not false anyone to take the survey I can only ask.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

As we say in Leeds (well obviously frog replacing lLeeds) STAND FROGGERS, STAND!


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

RiSE said:


> The questionnaire is not to inform people of what I am doing. The questionnaire is for me to collect information to know which direction to take the business and how viable it is. I think people are missing the point here, this is not a get rich quick scheme, this is a business that will help provide aid for conservation projects around the world. If you anyone that is involved in conservation they will tell you there is not enough money assigned to them.
> 
> I can not false anyone to take the survey I can only ask.


 this is the thing we care about conservation and we do what we can but supporting these people for example we all chipped in to raise funds for one at Christmas time. 
a viable business means profit and im sure the princes trust wont be involved in a business that will not make profit but what are you trying to do? run a pet shop and put money into conservation? this hobby have this and the people running these shops have OUR trust and they have a huge amount of knowledge......


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

RiSE said:


> It comes under Pet Animals Licence. Like I said before it is different for different boroughs. Animal establishment licensing - Gravesham Borough Council.
> 
> If you want me to try and add a disclaimer at the bottom of the survey I'll try? Or if it makes people feel more safer I can do a second survey where you don't have to put your e-mail in. It was just there so when I come onto selecting species I could contact people that were interested.
> 
> Thanks Jason


Your link is identical to mine, it links to the page that links to the individual types of license, not to an individual license called an animal establishment license.

If you are talking about a pet shop license, then yes you need one to sell animals for the purpose of profit. You do NOT however need one where you are making no profit at all. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/14-15/35

Funnily enough, I actually know somebody who went professional with his breeding, and yes required a pet shop license (that list lists it as a pet animals license) as he was breeding for the purpose of selling for profit.

Sorry, but been blunt you either haven't a clue what you are doing, or you're actually been false with us for some reason.

I also agree 100% with Grizzlymonkyboy. There isn't a niche where a UK based captive breeder can make enough to live on, let alone enough to donate profits to conservation charities. If there is, how come the countless people who tried it failed miserably and gave up? :lol2:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Seems a bit like "you willing gave us your information and those of others, cheers"


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

RiSE said:


> The questionnaire is not to inform people of what I am doing. The questionnaire is for me to collect information to know which direction to take the business and how viable it is. I think people are missing the point here, this is not a get rich quick scheme, this is a business that will help provide aid for conservation projects around the world. If you anyone that is involved in conservation they will tell you there is not enough money assigned to them.
> 
> I can not false anyone to take the survey I can only ask.


See Jason, that's part of the problem; You are asking for personal information from people for a project you refuse to explain, even in basic terms, beyond stating that it will somehow contribute to conservation. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but even some guidence on how you plan to use the information, plus a basic outline of what the scheme actually is, would help. From the experience of some of the young people I work with who are supported by the Princes Trust, complete secrecy is not required to be sponsored by them. We aren't asking to see your business plan, but we would need more to go on than you seem prepared to give. Somebody mentioned the APA- this is an organisation that is using partial information and plain ignorance to make it awkward for the hobby in this country, so I'm sure you can understand that the 'cloak and dagger' stuff is making people wary.


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

frogman955 said:


> Having taken a quick look at the survey something strikes me as odd.
> For starters I will not be filling it in.
> The questions look suspicious to me.
> Apart from gathering keepers email addresses.
> ...


Exactly Mike, you don't know me and not one of you this evening have been welcoming, the way questions have been asked have been bullish. All I have done is what I have been told by the Trust. The questionnaire has been designed to be simple and quick because noone whats to fill out a 5 minute survey. 

The Princes Trust has a designed plan that you have to follow, I have now moved on to the task of Market research. I created a survey they re-worked it and told me to use as much free advertising as possible i.e social networking and forums. I am just simply completing a task to take a step further.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I wish I had a p.h.d in science. Just the whole of science, imagine that. 

I haven't even bothered looking at the survey, I don't do market research either. I think you may have seen the glorified prices of dart frogs in your local petshop and have viewed it as a money making opportunity. You cant breed darts in rubs and turn out masses of them, well you might, but nobody in the hobby will deal with you. Look at the dart frog warehouse or whatever it is called in the states. Everybody in the hobby hates them and actively set out to destroy his business. I bet the owner of that business can't give away his frogs now.

Dart frogs aren't royals, corns, beardies or leopards geckos. Simples.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Let's pretend I tell you who I am and I buy x frog off x bloke for loads of cash. Id put my money on that bloke getting a visit from the taxman or police


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

plasma234 said:


> I wish I had a p.h.d in science. Just the whole of science, imagine that.


]ive got a degree in smelling bullsh!t a mile off


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

The questions have become bullish bud because your answers have been completely unsatisfactory, consisting of a mixture of pseudo-legality and outright evasion.

Hopefully others don't feel that this is the norm, we're actually a really friendly bunch to GENUINE people.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Maybe you are missing what is being said on here.
This forum and others have had their share of scammers looking to make a fast buck out of people who want to help do their little bit for conservation.
Now we have someone doing the rounds posting on different forums asking for personal info, using your own words, "for market research".
Now I for one am sick to death of market research assholes phoning my house in the evening, in MY own private time, and I`d bet money that this forum is full of people who feel the same.
Now we have an unknown person comes in and askes us to help with market research but won`t explain what it`s for.
Can you not see why we are all being rather cagey and a bit unwelcoming ?
If it was me and I was genuine (I`m not saying that your not) I would have come in and got to know people and publicised what I`m about and asked for peoples views and find out through the threads if people would be interested in helping you out.
All we know is that you claim to be wanting to start up some sort of frog selling business and aim to put money into conservation.
I think there is a scheme like this attempted roughly once every couple of years.
I just think that you`ve gone about it all wrong.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Meefloaf said:


> ]ive got a degree in smelling bullsh!t a mile off


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Just in case anyone is confused about the references to the APA: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...on/860479-who-what-apa-animal-protection.html


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

tell you wat mate you have a shed load of market research right here in this thread ha ha 

also depending on what info you need read the posts in this section this will give you an idea on how serious we are about OUR hobby and the love we all share for frogs......


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> Just in case anyone is confused about the references to the APA: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...tion/860479-who-what-apa-anal-protection.html



Ron, shouldn`t that first word be anal ? :whistling2:


Mike


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## Dark Valentino (Mar 15, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> Having taken a quick look at the survey
> The questions are very much like what I would expect a member of the A.P.A. to ask.


:gasp: I gave one of my many email addresses..

Take that A.P.A



But on a serious note, *if* this is, what could they possibly do with it?


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Can a mod possibly trace the ip address of RiSE ? I think it would be interesting to see where Jason is located. In all honesty I have no objection to someone doing market research, sensible people will see that this hobby is not one which lots of profit is made from and someone with an unknown reputation is even more unlikely to succeed at turning a profit in the short to medium/long term.


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## SporAkaJohn (May 1, 2012)

Dark Valentino said:


> :gasp: I gave one of my many email addresses..
> 
> Take that A.P.A






I too used one of many 








Sent from my Windows Phone using Tapatalk


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

frogman955 said:


> Maybe you are missing what is being said on here.
> This forum and others have had their share of scammers looking to make a fast buck out of people who want to help do their little bit for conservation.
> Now we have someone doing the rounds posting on different forums asking for personal info, using your own words, "for market research".
> Now I for one am sick to death of market research assholes phoning my house in the evening, in MY own private time, and I`d bet money that this forum is full of people who feel the same.
> ...


I have taken on board what you have said, I have change the email question to be optional. It was only put there so when trading starts I can inform people that filled in the questionnaire that we are open.

I'll try and explain the business as best I can. Ron Magpie I was asked to be more secretive with my business plans because its a little different to all the other people in the room, wanting to set up coffee shops and fashion shops. This business is going to be a captive breeding program that will produce amphibians for the UK pet trade. Some of the proceeds will be donated to at first the Jambatu project. It was suggested to me because they also have a connection with Prince Charles through the Prince Charles Stream Tree Frog. I also have a different way that I will help fund them but this I can not explain. Also I am in talks with other projects so I can bring new species into the UK pet trade.

I know a business can not solely survive on the sale of live animals, that is why I stated in my first post that I will be stocking equipment, live foods, etc...

The questions in my questionnaire are there to help me and my business mentors chose the correct path.

Unfortunately some of you are now are being incredibly rude now and I hope the forum monitors will intervene.

I just wish to say this was never set up to offend anyone or scam anybody. Like I said before I have taken all your thoughts on and changed the questionnaire to suit everybody.

Thanks


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

anyone else emailed TPT to check if this adds up :whistling2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

To be fair, we have to allow for the possiblilty that the whole thing could be perfectly legitimate- I'd definitely want to know more before committing to anything, though.

EDIT: @Jason: Just read your last post, thanks for that, things are now a little clearer. Buuuut, whilst I can understand keeping your plans away from your classmates, it rather defeats the object to keep it away from the group that you want help and possibly future custom from. Yes, people have responded with suspicion and some hostility, but to be honest, your approach wasn't ideal. I'd seriously suggest taking that on board, if this is the market you want to work in.


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

phelsumaman said:


> Can a mod possibly trace the ip address of RiSE ? I think it would be interesting to see where Jason is located. In all honesty I have no objection to someone doing market research, sensible people will see that this hobby is not one which lots of profit is made from and someone with an unknown reputation is even more unlikely to succeed at turning a profit in the short to medium/long term.


I will be totally honest where I live, Gravesend, Kent


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## SporAkaJohn (May 1, 2012)

Is this to be like Understory Enterprises that's in the USA?


Sent from my Windows Phone using Tapatalk


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

SporAkaJohn said:


> Is this to be like Understory Enterprises that's in the USA?
> 
> 
> Sent from my Windows Phone using Tapatalk


Yes in a way. I have also spoken to them about my business and had great support from them and there wishes.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

Hi there RiSE, 

I noticed your advert/post on several Facebook groups aswell as this one on here, and I am not entirely sure as to what the aim of this seems to be in respect to an Amphibian Breeding Project (It certainly isn't a business considering you will make little to no money on animals). Like I stated previous, you can't even break even with the sales of specimens alone and you mentioned that equipment would be sold aswell, but wouldn't that mean that you plan to be a Wholesaler or Shop for the Amphibian market? 

It seems a little cagey, with all respect of course and I don't think I will be apart of the survey simply because of the species I keep. I have bred a number of Amphibians and have many within my collection I intend/or currently am breeding (some of which are highly endangered species). 
I think it is more than reasonable to ask, what is your previous experience in this area? And I would be more comfortable knowing the following; 

What have you kept? 
What do you keep currently? 
What have you bred? 
What do you breed currently? 

I think, before you can decide on where the market is at, that you need to be completely sure that you can even breed the species you may have to encounter (I am assuming by saying "so I can bring new species into the UK pet trade.", that you might intend to try and acquire _Atelopus_, _Hynobius_ and various other species?) as you may get hold of species that may cost quite a bit to import into the UK and not actually have success with breeding them due to lack of experience, as it certainly happens to the best of us. 

Look forward to reading your response,

MM


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

frogman955 said:


> Anyone who signed that survey, I hope you used a fake email address.




I'll admit I did fill in the survey and, despite being somewhat creative with the email address I used, I answered everything else honestly because, let's face it, the questions on it weren't things you couldn't find out easily enough by looking on my post history. What frogs do I keep? tricolors, leucs,auratus and one fat, lonely, whites tree frog. How much do I spend on my frogs a year? Christ, I was the Northern Tightarse of The Year 2013, I don't think i spent £500 IN TOTAL on my frogs. Ebay Exos, raffle prizes and cleverly planted vivs. Plus, I keep animals where I can breed my own food, it's a Yorkshire skinflints dream pet! Where do I buy my frogs? BAKS, when Adam is chasing me and my wallet around the room for 2 hours..........

In all seriousness, if this is a legit business endevour I can understand why you'd be secretive about it, I work with businesses all day every day so I'm reasonably clued up about why. What you've got to bear in mind is that in my eyes the market is already saturated as far as frog specific businesses go. Dartfrog, Rainforest Vivs and Pollywog. Boom, that's your competition and that's why I doubt you'll succeed. These people are well established, trusted and VERY experienced keepers. Every poster on here has their prefered choice of supplier for frogs, plants, equipment etc and you'll be hard pressed to get them to move away and start using you if they have no idea of your background. You've said you don't even keep darts so alarm bells go off straight away. Why should we trust you or allow total newbies to trust you if you yourself admitedly don't know what you're on about. As for bringing in and breeding new interesting species, such as what? Marc already brings over some weird and wonderful stuff including the recent sylvatica import, what makes you so different? You need to realise there is no money to be made for a start up company in this particular field, many have tried and the majority have failed. Exotic pets are a niche business as it stands and you're looking to set up a business in the most niche area of that market. As Mike said earlier, had you come in and simply started a thread stating what you're intending to do, maybe asking what frogs folk kept because you don't want to produce the same things that everybody else does then you might have been welcomed with semi-open arms and would have got a much more friendly response, we'd have probably even advised you that it's not financially the best business to be setting up.



RiSE said:


> Unfortunately some of you are now are being incredibly rude now and I hope the forum monitors will intervene.


And this is where you've lost me as a potential customer. The phib section of this forum has a reputation for being the friendliest, most welcoming part of this site. Coming in as a total outsider saying you want to change the world and sell us frogs and breed unusual species is going to get a cagey response. We've seen it all before many, many times. We've had the scammers, the delusionists, the rip off merchants and the downright morons so we have every right to question you before we divulge too much infortmation or God forbid, start parting with cash. You've literally been on here 2 minutes and coming out with statements like that towards the people you want to be your future customers really isn't that clever. We may have our spats on here and I know there may be people reading this who don't like me and vice versa however what you're seeing on here is folk closing rank and defending our hobby and we'll bloody well stick together if we think we're at risk. 

If you're as genuine as you say you are then good luck to you however until you can establish some trust with the posters on here you're going to keep getting a strong reaction and you need to learn to deal with that. If you don't like the reactions you're getting you're going in to the wrong business.

Jon


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Jason, if you are still reading, when I replied to you yesterday on the other forum this is essentially what I was trying to avoid! Obviously I was too late...

I suggested you modified you approach towards your potential customers, you didn't, and if you were familiar at all with this forum or the hobby as a whole you would have known that this reaction was inevitable.

Personally I do not think you are a Nigerian scammer, or an animal rights activist, but I do think your approach here has been incredibly naive (if well-intentioned). Unless you have something seriously innovative up your sleeve I also think your business model is incredibly naive. You don't seem to have any understanding at all of the market, the animals or the people you are engaged with and all I hope is that you do not loose too much money.

That said, as I have said before, if you really are as well intentioned as you say and your business by some miracle stacks up, I wish you the very best of luck. What you propose is indeed what we need here in the UK.

Nick


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

I know interests will cause conflict and I understand what other members are stating. I also understand that people have scammed others but not everyone is that horrible. As for competition yes the names you mentioned are big in the dart frog world but they all had to start somewhere.



> You need to realise there is no money for a start up company in this particular field, many have tried and the majority have failed.


Luckily for me I am being spurred on by the many people that believe I can do it. Yesterday I had a benefactor e-mail me to say if I do receive money from the Princes Trust and succeed in opening, then they will invest a further large sum. I will also have a business mentor that will stay with me for 2/3 years helping the company sustain in the market. 

Also just to add that I am waiting to receive a grant from the Trust so I can retrain as a herpetologist. I spoke to my mentor this morning of the discussion we had last night and he has put my application through.

I do hope that in the future I can prove worthy. I am just completing an account for myself personally so I can post pics of my own pets and then people can get to know me on a more personal note.

Thank you all for your input, I take all your opinions and suggestions very seriously and again I thank you.

If any of you want to talk to me and get to know me personally please do so, JasonSmith87.

If anyone still wants to take the survey please do, e-mail is now optional, you will be helping me immensely as I'm not that far off from the about I need.


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

DrNick said:


> Jason, if you are still reading, when I replied to you yesterday on the other forum this is essentially what I was trying to avoid! Obviously I was too late...
> 
> I suggested you modified you approach towards your potential customers, you didn't, and if you were familiar at all with this forum or the hobby as a whole you would have known that this reaction was inevitable.
> 
> ...


Thank you Nick, much appreciated


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

RiSE said:


> I know interests will cause conflict and I understand what other members are stating. I also understand that people have scammed others but not everyone is that horrible. As for competition yes the names you mentioned are big in the dart frog world but they all had to start somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please re-read my post again, I badly worded it originally so I've edited it. I'm not saying there's no investment for you, what I'm saying there's no money to be made for a frog specific company just starting out. 

It doesn't matter how much investment you've got, you could have a Sheikh give you a billion quid to build your frog emporium but you're still going in to a market where you've already got plenty of competition from the 3 retailers I mentioned. Hell, I think 3 frog specific shops is pushing overkill, you're essentially suggesting doing the same thing so I don't think you'll make much if any money out of what you're proposing. Your other issue, which will keep being brought up, is that all your competition know what they're on about, whether they're trained herpetologists or not. Marc from Dartfrog has probably forgotten more about mantella species than some of us will ever know. This is my point. All the money in the world can't buy you expertise like that. If I go to dartfrog and Marc says "I've tried keeping x frog like this_______" I'm going to trust his oppinion far more than somebody I've nevr heard of. This all probably sounds more harsh than intended and if you knew some of the posters personally as I do you'd know they're not ones to get wound up easily and defending the hobby they invest so much time and money in to is always going to be a sensitive subject.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

ronnyjodes said:


> you're essentially suggesting doing the same thing so I don't think you'll make much if any money out of what you're proposing.


To be fair, if we take everything said at face value, what Jason is suggesting is different. The proposal as I understand it is conservation-focused, with sales funding the conservation work. None of the businesses in Europe as far as I am aware follow this model. You could say because they don't really care.... But, it is probably equally likely that it simply is not a way to make money. 

If a dartfrog-specific business is going to struggle, one that channels its minimal profits into conservation surely cannot do any better! Although I always like to be proven wrong......

Nick


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

DrNick said:


> The proposal as I understand it is conservation-focused, with sales funding the conservation work.


Although everything discussed so far and all the questions on the questionairre are aimed soley at the sales/shop aspect. What do you keep? How much do you spend? Where do you buy from? Why do you buy from your current supplier, customer service etc. I've not seen anything yet about the conservation aspect- what conservation is being planned, why it needs to be done when there are already dart frog conservation projects going on, what makes this different? Unless I've missed something (skim reading on an iPhone whilst on the toilet FTW) this just comes accross as "I don't know anything about darts but I'm wanting to set up a dart frog shop and I'll import some stuff from South America to breed and sell" which is why he's had the reaction he's had. And that's before the suggestions he's a Nigerian scam artist but I'm less inclined to think like that.


If Jason comes back in 6 months and says "Right, I've got such and such set up in South America, I've got a captive breeding programme going on with x,y and z species, I've got multiple bloodlines going, we're investing in such and such so I've set up a shop to help cover some of the costs of what I'm doing" then I'll say well done and he'll probably get the same response from anybody else that is coming off as critical initially, he may even get folks putting their hands in their pockets to contribute if it's a legitimate and worthy cause but as you say, the original post was naiive and was bound to result in the last few pages of posts.We're a tough lot to convince and rightly so. I'll say it again though, good luck to him.


Edit: Just realised that this post (particularly the first paragraph) could be interpreted that I'm having a pop at you Nick, I'm not, just pointing out the lack of information we've been given about the conservation aspect of this endevour.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> Although everything discussed so far and all the questions on the questionairre are aimed soley at the sales/shop aspect. What do you keep? How much do you spend? Where do you buy from? Why do you buy from your current supplier, customer service etc. I've not seen anything yet about the conservation aspect- what conservation is being planned, why it needs to be done when there are already dart frog conservation projects going on, what makes this different? Unless I've missed something (skim reading on an iPhone whilst on the toilet FTW) this just comes accross as "I don't know anything about darts but I'm wanting to set up a dart frog shop and I'll import some stuff from South America to breed and sell" which is why he's had the reaction he's had. And that's before the suggestions he's a Nigerian scam artist but I'm less inclined to think like that.
> 
> 
> If Jason comes back in 6 months and says "Right, I've got such and such set up in South America, I've got a captive breeding programme going on with x,y and z species, I've got multiple bloodlines going, we're investing in such and such so I've set up a shop to help cover some of the costs of what I'm doing" then I'll say well done and he'll probably get the same response from anybody else that is coming off as critical initially, he may even get folks putting their hands in their pockets to contribute if it's a legitimate and worthy cause but as you say, the original post was naiive and was bound to result in the last few pages of posts.We're a tough lot to convince and rightly so. I'll say it again though, good luck to him.


Good points, well made.

@Jason: Hopefully, you can see through to the positives here; to set up the kind of business you want, and to appeal to the client base you want, there is a lot you need to think about and adjust. With the right preparation and the right approach, it may be feasible- it won't be easy though.

@Ronny: Tcha, we *all *like you! We'd like you even better if you were on Faceache...:lol2:


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

Ok, what I don't understand is this, how can it be a conservation project when you're suppling to the Pet Trade/industry? Considering that a few species in the Herptile world (Lygodactylus williamsi Scaphiophyrne gottlebei for example) are pretty much listed as Critically Endangered (Extinct In The Wild soon) because of the Pet Industry? 

Even though many Amphibian species have more major threats, most are all nearly afftected by the Over Collection of Wild specimens with minor to major effects on their eild populations. You're going to need some species that are Wild Caught in the first place as certainly all the ones that haven't been bred in captivity that you will come across will be WC, its unavoidable. Personally, all I see from this "Conservation" aspect is that its highly contradictory, as you will fuel the need for more individuals and I really don't want species such as Hynobius tokyoensis being taken from the wild to fuel the Pet industry.

No matter what proceeds are given to Conservation, its still a bit hypocritical in regards to you supplying the trade which is only going to fuel more people into importing WCs because demand has Sky Rocketed. Dont get me wrong, I get the cause and what is trying to be achieved as i wanted to do something similar a good 4 years ago with the Prince's Trust (Think it was them) which they saw as impossible.


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

MantellaMan said:


> Ok, what I don't understand is this, how can it be a conservation project when you're suppling to the Pet Trade/industry


I don't know if everyone on here understands the inner workings of conservation projects but I would like to share the information I have been given.

Almost all conservation projects have captive breeding as part of their projects. Most of these projects end up with surplus animals as it would not be ecology sound to release all animals into the ecosystem, it could cause an imbalance. With conservation projects often short of funds they sell these remarkable species into the pet trade rather than anaesthetize them, thus giving them extra funds and us enthusiasts get to enjoy them in captivity. 

I have also been given information that captive bred species tend to be more hardier than their wild relatives. Scientist's are using this method of reasoning to try and combat Chytrid Fungus.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

The bit of the business model that I dont understand is that most frogs if kept in the right conditions are very prolific.

So you import frog A from Ecuador breed them and sell them for £50 each, say. Someone buys them from you and breeds them and sells the offspring at £30 each. 

From your original £50 some money will go back to the conservation project but none will go back from the guy who has bred them and sold them for £30.

In a very short time the frogs will become cheaper and cheaper with increased numbers and less and less people will buy them from you.

This is the case already with some of the Dartfrogs and Treefrogs imported into Europe via UInderstorey and the like.I cannot see a way around this .

I believe a similar model is being used with the Golden Mantellas in Madagascar, although I personally have doubts about this as they are bred in numbers in the west. A small quota of wild ones are to be allowed out in order that the greater population is saved through habitat conservation in the wild.

In Britain there are only a finite number of people keeping Dartfrogs,you only have to look here and elsewhere to see the prices lowering and adverts staying on line for weeks at a time.


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Ron Magpie said:


> Good points, well made.
> 
> @Jason: Hopefully, you can see through to the positives here; to set up the kind of business you want, and to appeal to the client base you want, there is a lot you need to think about and adjust. With the right preparation and the right approach, it may be feasible- it won't be easy though.
> 
> @Ronny: Tcha, we *all *like you! We'd like you even better if you were on Faceache...:lol2:


I will quite happily keep anyone informed as to where I am so far in the project, what I have been finding out. Further more I would love for people to share pictures of there set-ups as I enjoy to see what peoples hard work has achieved. 

I assure people something like this will be able to sustain itself in the market. When custom grows the business will expand. In my plan I have stipulated "Amphibian" captive breeding so it does not bound me to just dart frogs. I chose dart frogs first because they are fascinating creatures and I believe more entertaining than a marine tank. If research tells me people are more interested in Whites or Red Eyes or salamanders I may not choose dart frogs.

I love these sort of heated debates because it shows how much people love and care for these creatures. All opinions are valued


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

RiSE said:


> I don't know if everyone on here understands the inner workings of conservation projects but I would like to share the information I have been given.
> 
> Almost all conservation projects have captive breeding as part of their projects. Most of these projects end up with surplus animals as it would not be ecology sound to release all animals into the ecosystem, it could cause an imbalance. *With conservation projects often short of funds they sell these remarkable species into the pet trade rather than anaesthetize them, thus giving them extra funds and us enthusiasts get to enjoy them in captivity*.


Sorry but I certainly don't see this as a legitimate project, for a start I know full well about Conservation as I actually work within this part of the industry, not the Pet Trade so know about it quite a bit. 
And I know full well that Conservation Projects do not participate in the release of Endangered specimens/offspring into the Pet Trade, yes they go up as surplus but not for the public domain. This practice is actually highly frowned upon within the industry. The _Neotropical _species such as _Atelopus_ are kept within the Americas mainly, Conservation projects in Panama refuse to let anywhere else in the world to have _A.zeteki and _intend to only keep them within American Collections.

Currently, as you have only replied to a tiny portion of my post (I had pretty valid points), I am seeing this as more of a Pet Shop idea, not one for conservation purposes. Anyone can donate money to these Projects, I can, Ron can, Mike can and blah blah blah so on and so forth, so what makes this idea any different to what can and is already done?



RiSE said:


> I have also been given information that captive bred species tend to be more hardier than their wild relatives. Scientist's are using this method of reasoning to try and combat Chytrid Fungus.


Firstly, it's captive bred specimens, doesn't matter if they are a species or not they are hardier or tend to be hardier after a few generations of Captive Breeding. However, this doesn't appear to be your aim as you stated (which you ignored in my previous post) that you want to supply species to the pet trade that are new and to keep bloodlines from becoming inbred you would require unrelated specimens (Mostly in the form of WC individuals). 

Anyway, before I dismiss this entirely, I shall wait to see some more information into this idea and see what happens, certainly with what you actually keep and have experience with. 

Kind regards, 

MM


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi Jason,
Please could you answer the following questions for us?
What reptile or Amphibian species have you kept in the past?
For how long?
Have you successfully bred any of the animals you have cared for?
Do you have any experience of maintaining suitable live food cultures for these animals long term (i.e. without the need to buy new cultured in)?
Why did you opt to stop keeping said species? 

You mention the Princes trust is aiming to fund you to retrain as a herpetologist? Where do you intend to study & what precursor qualifications do you have to enable you to attend such a course? 

I would love the oppurtunity to speak to your advisor at the Princes trust - I feel this particular area is one they do not understand fully and the advise you have been given is not really suitable for the type of venture you describe. If it is possible to speak to them please PM me your contact details & I would be happy to help.

Lastly are you aware of Tesoros De Columbia & the challenges they have faced in getting to where they are? If you are not I suggest you have a read through this forum & others to understand how difficult it is to get something like this off the ground.

Ben


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## RiSE (Feb 12, 2014)

Hi Ben,



> What reptile or Amphibian species have you kept in the past?


In the past I have kept leopard geckos, musk turtles, reeves turtles, corn snakes, red eyed tree frogs and green anoles. I still keep a leopard gecko, musk turtle, reeves turtle, corn snake and anoles. I have succesfully bred leopard geckos, I bred my reeves a few times and red eyed twice, my anoles breed regular but I take the eggs out.



> For how long?


I have kept reptiles and amphibians for 10 years now and throughly enjoy keeping them.



> Do you have any experience of maintaining suitable live food cultures for these animals long term (i.e. without the need to buy new cultured in)?


I have succesfully cultured fruitflies in the past for my anoles. I currently have a colony of locusts going now, which took a long time to establish.



> Why did you opt to stop keeping said species?


As I mentioned in a previous post, I read in forums and a friend of mine was caught by the council whom past information on to the tax man that he was not declaring the money he earned from breeding. I did not have the money to pay for a ASL and could not afford the same punishment he recieved as I have a young family. I decided that the best option was to down size my collection.



> mention the Princes trust is aiming to fund you to retrain as a herpetologist? Where do you intend to study & what precursor qualifications do you have to enable you to attend such a course?


There are many herpetology courses that anyone can take and others that are more higher education. Princes Trust have grants available for people to go back into education or get relevant training if starting a business.



> I would love the oppurtunity to speak to your advisor at the Princes trust - I feel this particular area is one they do not understand fully and the advise you have been given is not really suitable for the type of venture you describe. If it is possible to speak to them please PM me your contact details & I would be happy to help.


I can always ask but they have to deal with more than 1 pupil and I fear that not be forth coming. I spoke to them today and showed them the forum feeds and how people feel, they didn't think a few peoples opinion should knock my convidence in what I want to achieve. I on the other hand disagree with them and have taken on board everyones comments, like I said you all have helped me see the obstacles ahead and I thank each and everyone of you.

And lastly


> Lastly are you aware of Tesoros De Columbia & the challenges they have faced in getting to where they are? If you are not I suggest you have a read through this forum & others to understand how difficult it is to get something like this off the ground.


I am aware of the troubles that they had, but this is proof that things people thought impossible can be a possibility with hard work. Also I would like to add that with the backing of the Princes Trust it has made things a little easier for me as they have contacts as well.

One of the board of directors are directly involved with all different types of conservation from amphibians, reptiles, mammals and most resent, sharks.

Thank you for your questions Ben and I hope I have answered them a little better than I have with everyone else.

Thanks
Jason


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

what is the frog in your avatar mate I like look of it and would you be breeding these as part of conservation?


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

There is one huge problem if anyone wants to breed animals in the UK, they can be done cheaper elsewhere. 
Here if we want to sell tropical species we need to pay for:
-Heating
-Lighting
-Food
-enclosures
-others e.g. Salt mix for marine, substrate for frogs
-Breeding equipment.
-High wages

In LEDCs, where most of our exotics come from they often don't need to pay for heating and lighting as well as the other costs. The wages are much lower. I have found this from breeding marines. I have a lot of small fish, but can sell them for just £10 (fish shop sells them for £35), that's if I sell them direct, if I do not I need to sell them wholesale for £5. I don't make any money, and am pretty sure I lose some. I do enjoy it, but I need to end it soon (as I'm off to Uni).

So even if you are buying surplus from conservation projects, there will still be problems:
-Housing (how many are you going to keep)
-Health (parasites? they come from a semi-wild if they are bred in-situ)
-Competitiveness, people who breed them as a hobby don't care as much about money, so will usually sell them cheaper.
-Transport, they come from the other side of the world, closest tropical species would come from Africa, and that's a few thousand miles away, as you will be a small buisness how will you overcome this. Plus there's transport to our door, and our weather isn't the best.

I have come across these, and honestly waking up at 5:00 in the morning, feeding all the fish, going on an agonising 1 hour bus journey at 8:00, getting into college for 9:00, staying at college all day. Hoping my fry haven't died, getting home at 5:00, feeding the fish. Doing coursework and homework. I have about 2 hours free each day. I think it has removed at least some of my enjoyment of the hobby. 

The thing is we all have these amazing ideas, and what happens, we underestimate the time it takes, the money it takes, failing to take into account deaths, overestimating the selling price, over estimating the market available.

I think what you intend to do can be achieved much better if us here on RFUK started a breeding group (I know there are other forums, but it would create a community), people can ask for what morphs they are looking for, a few people can try breeding them, and we can swap/sell them to each other, because honestly the market is saturated, prices are quite high (as they are quite costly to house, and pet shops need to make money). But that might backfire, resulting in a huge drop in price, and therefore cutting corners for some pet shops, as that will be their only way to make ends meet other than stopping to keep frogs.


Just my thoughts on captive breeding in the pet trade as a whole, and how it is unrealistic in the UK in anything than a low-time hobby.


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