# Enigma Morphs



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

For a few years now, some breeders have been playing with the "morph enhancer" trait... Enigma.

Between us, we've all seen circling Engimas, whether that be Novas, Dreamsicles, Hypo Enigmas, etc... 

Quite a lot of us have witnessed the death roll trait, where suddenly the leo just flips over onto it's back.

Star gazing has been seen aswell (I caught a rescue of ours doing it not long ago).

I also know of quite a few cases where it's been reported that Enigma leos find it hard to metabolise calcium - making them more prone to suffering from MBD.

There's been arguments as to what these traits are due to.... But, does it really matter what they are due to? It's very evident that they are linked to this particular genetic trait.

My question is... Given we see the defects that this morph causes and the frequency of occurance of those defects is as high as it is.... Why do we breed them?


----------



## takeoffyourcolours (Apr 11, 2009)

maybe because some people want some good looking leos?
being selfish and only thinking of what they'll look like and how much money they can get from them..


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

takeoffyourcolours said:


> maybe because some people want some good looking leos?
> being selfish and only thinking of what they'll look like and how much money they can get from them..


 
I take it you don't breed with any of yours then?


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

takeoffyourcolours said:


> being selfish and only thinking of what they'll look like and how much money they can get from them..


Have you seen the price of enigmas recently? I have seen one person selling them for £30.
Also, some breeders do breed to make money, I wouldn't call that selfish, making a living.

People breed them as they are the new, "novel" thing, and with it being a dominant mutation, it makes it all the easier to work with.

I thought the number of occurances of the "enigma syndrome" were decreasing as the enigmas are being crossed out?

You will never stop people breeding new combinations/mutations, but if they follow strict rules (i.e. the animals being 100% healthy), then it lessens the chance of problems.


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

MrMike said:


> I thought the number of occurances of the "enigma syndrome" were decreasing as the enigmas are being crossed out?


I have a Normal.... not an Enigma... that shows the circling trait. I've no idea if others have such leos or not. I got given it as a rescue leo. She will never be used for breeding. My guess is she's come from Enigma breeding in her past but I don't have proof of this. Seems reasonably likely though, given where we see circling happening.

If I am right and she has got the trait thanks to crossing out with an Enigma... well, I think if that is starting to happen it changes things massively.

I wasn't aware of the negative traits becoming less common as people out cross their Enigmas. As far as I was aware, it was still just as common as it was - just that the sheer number of Enigmas out there now means that finding the negative traits is actually easier?


----------



## takeoffyourcolours (Apr 11, 2009)

forgottenEntity said:


> I take it you don't breed with any of yours then?


not my enigmas no :}


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

forgottenEntity said:


> I have a Normal.... not an Enigma... that shows the circling trait. I've no idea if others have such leos or not. I got given it as a rescue leo. She will never be used for breeding. My guess is she's come from Enigma breeding in her past but I don't have proof of this. Seems reasonably likely though, given where we see circling happening.
> 
> If I am right and she has got the trait thanks to crossing out with an Enigma... well, I think if that is starting to happen it changes things massively.


If it can be linked back to Enigma ancestory (nigh on impossible I know), then it would change things drastically. But, I'm not so sure. If the negative traits are expressed in non-enigma offspring, then there would be more cases? Unless people aren't revealing it?



forgottenEntity said:


> I wasn't aware of the negative traits becoming less common as people out cross their Enigmas. As far as I was aware, it was still just as common as it was - just that the sheer number of Enigmas out there now means that finding the negative traits is actually easier?


I haven't seen that many (compared to the number of enigmas) cases being reported on the forums I visit (the usual Gecko related ones). If the % of cases was to remain static, then there should be more cases of "enigma syndrome". However, I am only going on what information I can get to via the interwebz.


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

MrMike said:


> If it can be linked back to Enigma ancestory (nigh on impossible I know), then it would change things drastically. But, I'm not so sure. If the negative traits are expressed in non-enigma offspring, then there would be more cases? Unless people aren't revealing it?


Not sure but...



> I haven't seen that many (compared to the number of enigmas) cases being reported on the forums I visit (the usual Gecko related ones). If the % of cases was to remain static, then there should be more cases of "enigma syndrome". However, I am only going on what information I can get to via the interwebz.


It's threads like one I read on here the other day where the person was selling Enigma morphs that had "grown out" of the circling trait. Erm, they grow out of it now do they???

It's things like a certain Enigma morph that someone I know bought from a very reputable UK breeder which, aswell as arriving in rather a bad condition, was circling away - yet the price... £200 (was a rather high end morph)... It passed away not long after delivery.

I have one rescue enigma morph here... and that circles, star gazes and used to death roll aswell.

Now, it's perfectly possible that my view of the morph is somewhat negative compared to a lot of other people's views. My view though is based on the experiences I've had so far with the morph. Maybe the interesting one to do would be the anonymous poll. Voting for if your enigma(s) show any of the negative traits or not. For those owning more than 1, they would have to be able to vote multiple times. Even that wouldn't necessarily be un-biased though, depending on if people with negative trait niggys were willing to vote that they had or not.


----------



## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

i've got the one enigma who's perfectly healthy, no issues what so ever, who has been studded to most of my females, however he's only produced three enigma babies, which surprised me, but all three are perfect. no issues, growing really well etc. just the youngest one is really small, but VERY fistey.

thing is, if after buying him, if he'd shown any problems, i wouldn't have bred him. and if any of the babies had shown any issues they'd have been culled and sent for research, if anyone wanted them.


----------



## Mouki (Apr 29, 2009)

takeoffyourcolours said:


> maybe because some people want some good looking leos?
> being selfish and only thinking of what they'll look like and how much money they can get from them..





> My question is... Given we see the defects that this morph causes and the frequency of occurance of those defects is as high as it is.... Why do we breed them?


hmm...
i like the look of some enigmas but have never brought one and probably never will...i would absolutely hate for it to have enigma syndrome and have to be pts or have a poor quality of life. and for the same reason i would never breed them. imo things like this weaken the gene pools. i don't understand why anybody would want to risk the health of the animal because it looks nicer...
but hey...that's just my opinion :2thumb:

i'd rather stick with ones like cujo :no1: (he's doing great btw...67g now...and still eating like a pig! and just as cross-eyed as ever :Na_Na_Na_Na


----------



## Philldan (Aug 16, 2007)

I have 2 enigmas here... one, a bell enigma that shows none of the enigma traits, she's fit and healthy in every way!

The other is a little tangerine enigma that circles and and flips over if startled, thankfully she doesn't show any signs of MBD!!

I don't think you'll ever get an honest answer to how bad the problem is because people are too worried about losing money - call it coincidence (and I'll probably get slated for saying this but hey!) after I informed the breeder of the problems, a few days later, the person was selling off most, if not all of their adult enigmas - so there's a good chance some unwitting person will be breeding from them next year.. and if they realise there are problems, will they sell them on again??


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

At the end of the day the enigma is't going anywhere there here and here to stay some have enigma syndrome some *don't* it dose seem less these days maybe it's more hoping ?.But all albinos have sight/eye issues no matter what the animal but every has bred them in one animal form or another but there captive so this is't a big deal as they get all they need.It's down to us to play the role a natural selector so any enigmas showing enigma syndrome must be taken out of breeding stock.If there not to bad then it's pet only if worst you have a chose to make in the best intrest of the leo. 

There is word on the grape vine that Kelli H has sent a fair amount for testing.I really hope this is true and as a result we get some usful info.


----------



## meatgecko (Aug 25, 2007)

gazz said:


> At the end of the day the enigma is't going anywhere there here and here to stay some have enigma syndrome some *don't*.But all albinos have sight/eye issues no matter what the animal but every has bred them in one animal form or another but there captive so this is't a big deal as they get all they need.It's down to us to play the role a natural selector so any enigmas showing enigma syndrome must be taken out of breeding stock.If there not to bad then it's pet only if worst you have a chose to make in the best intrest of the leo.
> 
> There is word on the grape vine that Kelli H has sent a fair amount for testing.I really hope this is true and as a result we get some usful info.


from listening to a podcast she took part in she mentioned it fairly recently. I also think the enigma issues are becoming old hat I actually went out and brought s number of healthy enigmas and all of them circled a little until they settled in.

I know now from working with this morph that they have their little quirks, but no more than any other morph enigma is just publisced more. other morphs have thier little ticks be it due to the inbreeding or whatever. listening to mr tremper being interviewed recently and saying that all tremper albinos came from one male how long until we begin to have issues with those. or supersnows so inbred if you bother to do a search you will see the issues that seem to br occuring.


----------



## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

> how long until we begin to have issues with those. or supersnows so inbred


will have to dig around (and Gazz may remember seeing this too) but think there was a problem with snows/ss early on in that hatchlings failed to grow well or thrive.


> There is word on the grape vine that Kelli H has sent a fair amount for testing.I really hope this is true and as a result we get some usful info.


that's what I heard as well Gazz ~ fingers crossed something tangible comes back


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

meatgecko said:


> listening to mr tremper being interviewed recently and saying that all tremper albinos came from one male how long until we begin to have issues with those.


Most morphs come from one animal with one mutation, and most are bred back to parents/brothers and sisters intially to prove them out to be either recessive/codominant/dominant. Tremper albino was discovered in 1996 I believe, so if there was going to be any problems arising then I think they would have occured by now.


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

It's accepted that there are issues with the morph. Whether these issues are of a neurological nature or not is basically irrelevant. What isn't argued is that "some" leos carrying the enigma gene show one or more of a set of negative traits.

There's also a lot of false information handed around aswell about these traits and how to avoid them. I know several people who firmly believe, thanks to word of mouth alone, that the traits don't show unless the leo carries 2 copies of the enigma gene. I think that myth got rubbished a long time ago now though.

Then the more recent story is "if you only use enigmas that don't show the traits for breeding, the problem doesn't show in the offspring". Again, proven to not be true. There's no exact point in an enigma's life where it will be guaranteed to start showing one or more of the traits either - some never show them. Others can make it months and months before they start to show... Others it's weeks and with several it's from the moment of hatching.

I believe a fellow forum user a few posts earlier used the term "old hat" to describe these traits. I am a little unsure as to whether he means that we should just accept these traits now as being "the norm" or whether he means that he thinks the traits are disappearing the more and more breeding that is done with the enigma gene? Circling is but one of the negative traits they show... and in my view, probably the least worrying (although I have seen engimas that circle so tight and fast that it is rather worrying / upsetting to watch). Death rolls, star gazing, lack of ability to absorb calcium (which can and does kill).... How long does a list of "things you really don't want leos to be doing" have to be before its long enough for people not to want to breed them for the sake of pretty patterns and colours?

If this comes across as a bit soap-box then sorry  Just me trying to put forward the view points taken by a growing number of people... in the name of a healthy discussion


----------



## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Personally............ :gasp:

I have 2 enigmas, neither of which show any stargazing,circling,rolling etc.
One of them is just plainly rubbish at striking food, but seeing as I also have a totally blind Supersnow Albino I can't honestly say that is 'enigma' based, as in every other way she is the same as all my other leo's (apart from being a really greedy git !)

The other enigma is several months old and he seems to be fine, showing no different behaviour to any of the other leo's i have. 
I would say that every single leo is 'different' and show differences in the way they feed, act and react. I think there may well be 'something' that CAN be set off by enigma, but to say it's a catch all 'do not use' gene is a bit too easy IMO.

Looking outside of leo's and Enigma, if you look at say dogs, there are numerous problems with numerous breeds (hip/eyes,skin issues etc). What hasn't ever happened in these cases is a 'full stop' put on the breeds, the genuine open and honest breeders will use only the 'best' examples showing the least obvious traits. This does seem to be working, so on a basic level I don't see why the same won't/couldn't work with enigma based leo's.

Personally, if I see any issues in enigma hatchlings, they will be either pts or retained as pets depending on quality of life for the leo... And I would then maybe revise my opinion on using the parents again.
Same as I won't breed my blind gecko or Seperation Anxiety affected dog !

I believe it's called 'honesty and common sense'......... depends whether eevryone applies the same criteria, some will - some won't.:whistling2:


----------



## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> I believe it's called 'honesty and common sense'......... depends whether eevryone applies the same criteria, some will - some won't.:whistling2:


I agree unfortunately that's what it boils down too ~ and lets face it sometimes common sense and honesty seem to have died a death


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> I believe it's called 'honesty and common sense'......... depends whether eevryone applies the same criteria, some will - some won't.:whistling2:


Good point. As Gazz said, Enigmas are not going to disappear, so thoughtful breeding is needed. 

One of our enigmas has a deformed leg, so even though she isn't showing any "enigma syndrome" traits, she still will not be bred form. Damn shame as well as she is gorgeous.


----------



## Morphene (Jun 28, 2008)

forgottenEntity said:


> How long does a list of "things you really don't want leos to be doing" have to be before its long enough for people not to want to breed them for the sake of pretty patterns and colours?


When the 'chameleon' morph* or* the 'glow-in-the-dark' morph *or* the 'spiney-tailed sticky-toed jumping flying rough-scaled snake-tongued 'camo' morph is created.

Pushing the boundaries & limits of colour, pattern or even physical traits is exciting & interesting but can (& sometimes is) at the animals expense. It doesn't know it's a defective mutant, but man-made animals seem to be more popular than natural looking animals. When these mutants pop up unplanned it's then a reason for trying to reproduce the mutant again.

A new colour or strange pattern is fascinating & eye catching as would be a leopard gecko which could stick to walls & ceilings or that had a forked toungue that flicked in & out.
If there were any physical abnormalities like 5 legs or one eye or no tail, these would be less desireable. Animals don't have 5 legs or one eye & if it's meant to have a tail then it can look a bit odd if it doesn't have one?

I think we are able to pick out physical abnormalities instinctively but when it comes to genetics, etc that we cant actually 'see' until later on in the animals development, then I think we become in denial of a nice looking animal that develops a health issue. We dont want to lose the nice looking 'positive' even if the unhealthy 'negative' out weighs this.

If a leopard gecko was produced that could strobe colours like a cuttle fish *BUT* became aggressive towards cage mates when mature or suffered MBD throughout life - some one would still re-produce this mutant on it's positive value which would be the strobing never-seen-before colour changing abilities. People would still pay $3000 for this mutant because **they will be** the ones to breed out the negative health issues..... one example is the Enigma morph 

EDIT: *(Being sarcastic)* ...'they' *think/hope* they will be...


----------



## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

They are gorgeous so im tempted to get 1, but i dont think its worth the risk. I can only aford my geckos if they produce eggs for me to raise/sell and i dont want to have to cull some poor little gecko who really woudnt exist in the wild and is only so ill because someone bred it that way. Not much point in having prettier geckos if they only last a couple of months.
Plus id heard that the circling traits etc associated with the "enigma" gene can skip a generation so even if i got a healthy one, its babies might not be.
Its just too much of a risk. It's hard enough to sell them, i couldn't cull them, no way.
xx


----------



## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

Geckogirl_88 said:


> I can only aford my geckos if they produce eggs for me to raise/sell


erm if you can only afford leos if they breed/lay eggs for you to raise/sell can I ask what you do with retired breeders or those that are too ill/sick for breeding?


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

There really is no evidence to suggest that out-breeding enigmas with other non-enigma morphs will the alleviate the problem, and one of the main reasons for this is that we have no idea what causes the problem, and how it is linked the the Enigma mutation(s).

Further more we really don't know whether the problem is heightened by certain environmental cues, or husbandry protocols so it is almost impossible to suggest any individual is 'absolutely fine'.

My main problem with the suggestion that 'all morph have their own problems' is that certain problems do not pose serious health risks, or effect the general quality of the animals life. This does, and so therefore, in my opinion, should be seen to be more severe than a sensitivity to light.

Personally speaking, and professionally speaking the only thing I can recommend is to cease all enigma breeding activity. I hold out little hope for any of the 'research' that is supposedly being carried out, but i'd be happy to be proved wrong on that account.

I sincerely believe that people who take on developmental breeding programs should have far greater knowledge of fundamental genetics principles than the currently do, and show far more caution than they currently do. There really is no excuse for the problems the leopard gecko gene pool is currently exhibiting, and unfortunately I really do put it down to the greed of several large scale 'pioneers'.

Andy


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

Greedy-Gecho7 said:


> People would still pay $3000 for this mutant because **they will be** the ones to breed out the negative health issues..... one example is the Enigma morph
> 
> EDIT: *(Being sarcastic)* ...'they' *think/hope* they will be...


Problem is, we aren't talking about $3000 dollar leos any more... We are talking about £30-£50 leos at the bottom end. The breeding of Enigmas went so far so fast that their price fell well out of "high end" territory.

Yes, you can still pay a small fortune for top-end morphs that carry Enigma - Nova, Dreamsicle, etc... Go on, please tell me that just about anyone on this forum who buys a Nova or Dreamsicle (or indeed plans on breeding them) is doing so in the hope of "breeding out" the negative issues? Pop into the classifieds - where you will find threads from small scale home producers who are selling Enigmas... and then pop into the Lizards forum where you'll find the same people explaining how theirs were circling but appear to have stopped now or how one has died but the others seem fine, etc. These people aren't breeding them in the hope of breeding out the bad traits - they are breeding them because it's what they like in terms of colours and because it's the current cool thing to breed... stuff the faults that come along with them... or else deny that the faults are "really" there.


----------



## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> There really is no evidence to suggest that out-breeding enigmas with other non-enigma morphs will the alleviate the problem, and one of the main reasons for this is that we have no idea what causes the problem, and how it is linked the the Enigma mutation(s).
> 
> Further more we really don't know whether the problem is heightened by certain environmental cues, or husbandry protocols so it is almost impossible to suggest any individual is 'absolutely fine'.
> 
> ...


Andy - I agree with your right to an opinion and actually agree with several of your points. However should any breeding of any captive animal stop as soon as any 'issue' is noted, whether genetic or not ? I guess what I'm trying to say is, at what point do we draw the 'line' and who has this theoretical say so ?
Statements such as ' problems the leopard gecko gene pool is currently exhibiting' are quite wide ranging and don't take into account the many hundreds/thousands of captive bred leo's which are 'normal' - as normal as an animal living in a house or enclosure can be anyway....
Morphs of any kind are by definition a generic abnormality - however if we need to go back to 'normal' animals then our hobby is in fact redundant as we should all be travelling to observe them only in their wild state surely ? 

I do personally feel, that a small number of WC animals being introduced into the mix by responsible breeders would be beneficial (but also containing it's own inherent risks), but we are dealing with things that have already occurred and short of a complete ban on leo breeding from now on, we will have the watered down/damaged gene pool to contend with.
Careful management/observation is in my opinion the way forward if we aren't actually proposing such a drastic step...


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Failure to purge an animal with deleterious alleles from the 'gene-pool' will have negative effects on both the relative and absolute fitness of all animals contained within it. Further to this, fixation of deleterious alleles is essentially where all individuals will have this allele and so the problem has reached its maximal point. This situation is most likely to occur with recessives alleles in groups with small effective population size. Now consider the ability of a character to be come fixed if the mutation is associated with a dominant character.

Over the last 20 years the effective population size of leopard geckos in captivity has declined rapidly, if you tie that to the amount of successful breeding each year, and the absolute population number you will realize that the potential for fixation of a dominant deleterious allele is worryingly high. 

At this point I question the ability to out-cross this character. As I have already said we know so little about it that we do not know how it is inherited, what it is linked too, or even if it is environmentally effected. To continue breeding this character to every available individual will not, and cannot purge it from the system, it will in fact on serve to increase its abundance.

With this in mind, I would love to hear of any other way to deal with the situation. I work with inbreeding depression, and in my opinion there is no other way.

That aside, it is fine to have concerns for the hobby, but by definition these are a little selfish, depending on where you stand with animal welfare. I will not go into my personal opinions on this because every bodies will vary.

Andy


----------

