# anti-rodent farm petition



## Horatio (Jul 16, 2009)

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/rodent-farms

Please sign


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

i would sign and i agree some rat farms are nasty.but my father in law breeds for pets at home and i know my self his rats are well cared for and have large boxes and toys and get handel daily so please dont tar every one with the same brush


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Well if he's not a rodent farm, he has nothing to worry about from the petition? :whistling2:


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Well if he's not a rodent farm, he has nothing to worry about from the petition? :whistling2:


no true i just dont like tar people with the same brush


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

When I used to work at Pets @ Home, they got all their rabbits & rodents from what you would call a farm. The general quality of the animals that came in was poor, with wet tail common in hamsters & diahorrea (sp) often seen in rabbits. The whole chain get their small furries from these sorts of suppliers, as whilst I worked there they stopped getting animals from local breeders.

This is the main reason why I only get animals from local breeders for the shop.


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

If this petition succeeded what would happen to the places that breed our frozen food?Harry


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## MayhemRed (Jun 29, 2009)

they'd have more stringent rules in place to be sure that animals were kept humanely, fed well and dispatched humanely?

I'm after a local supplier for mine to avoid having to come across wretched little fuzzies that are skinny, mangy looking and more often than not have great big bruised/raised/bashed in heads when they're meant to have been gassed... I'd rather pay more for a small time supplier that looks after em then get em from these poor quality chains. Better for my snakes AND the feeders if the feeders are kept in decent conditions.


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

"If this petition succeeded what would happen to the places that breed our frozen food?"

prices will go up at best ,
or 
shut down and your have to breed your own, but then the rule would make that impossable,

so i for one wont be sign in,plus wasnt that farm out of the uk ??


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I'm sorry, but I won't be signing the petition. I sure as heck am not going to legislate my snake food out of existence.

You can do more to prevent rodent farmers from selling live rodents to pet shops by *not buying pet rodents in pet shops* and even by boycotting pet shops that sell rodents. Tell them why you won't shop there any more - if enough people do it, then pet shops will HAVE to stop selling pet rodents.

And yes, Rockkeeper, the photograph shown on the petition is of a rodent farm in Europe.


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

"And yes, Rockkeeper, the photograph shown on the petition is of a rodent farm in Europe."
thought so,



whats next to ban , hmmm ban reptiles in homes,?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

MayhemRed said:


> I'm after a local supplier for mine to avoid having to come across wretched little fuzzies that are skinny, mangy looking and more often than not have great big bruised/raised/bashed in heads when they're meant to have been gassed...


...Not to mention covered in piss and decomposing due to most rodents being frozen incorrectly!



htf666 said:


> If this petition succeeded what would happen to the places that breed our frozen food?Harry


There is no reason that somebody couldn't be able to treat the feeder rodents (and guinea pigs/rabbits, for that matter) humanely without prices rocketing or the need for them to be shut down.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

MayhemRed said:


> they'd have more stringent rules in place to be sure that animals were kept humanely, fed well and dispatched humanely?
> 
> I'm after a local supplier for mine to avoid having to come across wretched little fuzzies that are skinny, mangy looking and more often than not have *great big bruised/raised/bashed in heads when they're meant to have been gassed...* I'd rather pay more for a small time supplier that looks after em then get em from these poor quality chains. Better for my snakes AND the feeders if the feeders are kept in decent conditions.


One swift bash to the head is a far more humane method than gassing is. That is fact. Least they are actualy dead and not just shoved in a freezer while actually still alive because when handling so many they don't bother to see wether they are actually dead or not before freezing. Then not to mention how long it takes to die from gassing. Which, in actual fact, takes a lot longer than 1 swift knock to the skull or neck dislocation.

Decent conditions, Correct feeding. Correct cages. Clean conditions and a swift dispatch. Thats how it should be.

Like Zooman has started, Pets @ home actualy sent out a message to all stores (Started when they were pet smart before being bought over by pets @ home) that we weren't allowed to buy from Local top quality breeders and had to buy from S***** Rodents instead.
I remember one year he'd run out of rabbits at easter so he went to a Rabbit meat farm and bought a load of babies at 50p each, sold them same day as collected to Pet smart for £10 each!!! New Zealand Whites and Californians. When I had some top show breeders supplying Netherland Dwarfs and Dwarf Lops at that price and they were more likely to find homes. I told my boss that just because she ordered them all in for easter wouldn't mean they would sell. I was left with 25 large rabbits at 6 montsh old that I ended up taking home myself because the store was making a loss every day in the shop. 
The quality is poor, the temps are poor and lifespan poor and short in farmed rodents for pets. 
Not to mention the increase in carbon footprint from not buying local and getting better quaility and traceability when buying local.


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## MayhemRed (Jun 29, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> One swift bash to the head is a far more humane method than gassing is. That is fact. Least they are actualy dead and not just shoved in a freezer while actually still alive because when handling so many they don't bother to see wether they are actually dead or not before freezing. Then not to mention how long it takes to die from gassing. Which, in actual fact, takes a lot longer than 1 swift knock to the skull or neck dislocation.


Neck dislocation I don't mind so much, it's fast, one bash to the head, when correctly done, is fast, but mass ones can't be as so many of my pinks or fuzzys have multiple marks, and bruises to more of their body which could be post mortem but could easily be from multiple attempts or a mass throw. Gassing, when done correctly, is also effective, but in larger quantities I see why it isn't as effective, which is why I'd rather go to someone smaller who has the time to dispatch in smaller amounts. I won't buy pets from pet shops which sell animals, I ain't buying food from the same places, specially when I see the same sad little unsatisfactory food products time in and out... I do see your point tho, I'm not dismissing it at all!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Without going into methods of dispatch, I have to disagree with Chris and the others and say I'd rather pay more for well reared healthy food for my snakes than support rodent farms. If there were such a thing.

Thing is, 99.9% of farms who raise for food dont have a conscience. I'm yet to find one supplier who raises their rats/mice in cages - I mean, come on - they must make a fortune selling to pet shops and reptile owners, surely they can afford to house them properly!

Just because the pics were from another country doesn't mean the conditions aren't the same here. They are. I have heard from people who have been - but they weren't allowed to take pictures. You can turn a blind eye and pretend it doesn't happen here, or worse - that it doesn't matter - but it does. If your dogs, cats, etc were raised in such shit conditions, you'd be in an uproar, but because it's a rodent you're not fussed? I think that's very sad.

High time people breeding for food or pet shop were brought up into the 21st century, if they cant meet animal welfare standards, they should find a different living.


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

Animal welfare standards? What, like the ones that allow battery hens? I would think that rodents are kept better than battery hens. Should we not sort out our food first? Harry


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

And funny thing is if you know owt about me, I breed my own poultry and will only ever eat those and never any form of bought processed chicken at all! 

So my welfare standards are not those set by the rspca even. I like my birds to see the sky, feel the sun on their backs and to enjoy finding grubs and beetles and worms to chomp on and true dust bathing and enjoying life.
So yes, far better welfare standards. Even if it just ment they had toys, larger cages and better health, that would be a huge start.


And those who don't mind what conditions that their feeder animals are kept in are only the same as those who buy battery cheap eggs in full knowledge of the life they have suffered.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> I'm sorry, but I won't be signing the petition. I sure as heck am not going to legislate my snake food out of existence.
> 
> You can do more to prevent rodent farmers from selling live rodents to pet shops by *not buying pet rodents in pet shops* and even by boycotting pet shops that sell rodents. Tell them why you won't shop there any more - if enough people do it, then pet shops will HAVE to stop selling pet rodents.
> 
> And yes, Rockkeeper, the photograph shown on the petition is of a rodent farm in Europe.


Why should pet shops stop selling rodents? Because the shops that do not use good local breeders get their rodents from these farms? Thats like saying because the chip shop round the corner gets his cod from unsustainable stock, you should boycott all chip shops!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

That's a whole other petition. I dont think there's much difference between the two types of breeder though.

I dont know any good breeders who home via pet shops.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> That's a whole other petition. I dont think there's much difference between the two types of breeder though.
> 
> I dont know any good breeders who home via pet shops.


Because a breeder sells their young to a pet shop, that instantly makes them a bad breeder? Why? 

If a breeder is happy that their local pet shop is good, knows their stuff & sells responsibly, then whats wrong with them selling the offspring to that shop? 

I have breeders who drive 30+ miles to bring me animals. They would not sell to their local shops as they weren't keen on their welfare standards & selling ethics.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Why should pet shops stop selling rodents? Because the shops that do not use good local breeders get their rodents from these farms? Thats like saying because the chip shop round the corner gets his cod from unsustainable stock, you should boycott all chip shops!


I personally don't believe pet shops should stop selling rodents either - I was just pointing out that, if you want to make a change to "rodent farms", then doing something REAL as an end user (rather than typing your name on an online form) is going to make a bigger difference.

Online petitions are worth only and exactly the paper you sign them on. What, you didn't sign a physical piece of paper with your real name and address? 

I think that pet shops SHOULD stock rodents from local breeders who care about their stock. 

Shame our local pet shop asked us to breed rats (sold us a pair, saying they'd trade us frozen rodents for live) and told us they wanted half a dozen tame, friendly babies soon as possible, I spent time producing half a dozen exactly like that... and they told me "oh, we don't have any space now. Got any mice?" No, I asked you two weeks ago if you wanted mice and you said no, so I restocked my freezer instead. And now I'll be restocking my freezer with tame, friendly baby rats, too.

I haven't offered stock to the shop since, and no, I don't bother taking the time to handle and play with youngsters, making tame, friendly baby rats any more either. 

I breed my own feeder rodents so I know what they've eaten, how they grow, how they're raised and how they are killed as well. But it's not cheap to do it - cheaper than buying frozen at pet shop prices, but not really cheaper than buying vast quantities in bulk would be, and I know approximately what shops pay at trade price for rodents, so it's really not cheaper than that. So yes, if legislation suddenly changed and rodent farmers had to buy new caging and equipment, then start raising fewer rats in the same amount of space, the price of frozen WOULD skyrocket. And people like me - who breed their own feeders - would wind up being the only ones who could afford to feed more than a few snakes.


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

"I breed my own feeder rodents so I know what they've eaten, how they grow, how they're raised and how they are killed as well"

but still dont give them toys thou, i dont form a bond either,thou some are cute,

once you think about rodents as pets, then its a whole different ball game,


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mine do have some toys - things to chew, things to throw around the cages.

They particularly like toilet-roll tubes.


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

"toilet-roll tubes"
iam guilty off putting them into for them to shred /build nests etc


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

See, you give yours toys too... just because they're not store-bought and have a ratty picture on the label doesn't make them "not toys".

I've also given mine wooden parrot toys that we had lying around in the past.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Because a breeder sells their young to a pet shop, that instantly makes them a bad breeder? Why?
> 
> If a breeder is happy that their local pet shop is good, knows their stuff & sells responsibly, then whats wrong with them selling the offspring to that shop?
> 
> I have breeders who drive 30+ miles to bring me animals. They would not sell to their local shops as they weren't keen on their welfare standards & selling ethics.


IMO yes, that makes them a bad breeder. But my ethics dont have to match yours or anyone elses, ethics are personal. I would avoid anyone who sold rats through pet shops personally because you cant keep tracks of the health and temperament of your lines if you send them out in batches and never find out where they go.

And vice versa, any breeder who's not willing to hand out their details to prospective owners I would avoid too.

It's a personal opinion, one shared by many thankfully. If only there were more of us responsible breeders who care and want to know where our rats go, how they fare, and what happens to them throughout their lives. If only more breeders homed directly, took details of owners, gave theirs TO owners, and took back rats they'd bred if they needed rehoming.

But no - these "good local" breeders you speak of just wait til they're weaned, give them to the pet shop, and there ends their responsibility. They are not breeders, IMO, they are multipliers.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

rockkeeper said:


> "I breed my own feeder rodents so I know what they've eaten, how they grow, how they're raised and how they are killed as well"
> 
> but still dont give them toys thou, i dont form a bond either,thou some are cute,
> 
> once you think about rodents as pets, then its a whole different ball game,


Why? Why is it important not to give them toys? Cant they have a happy life before they're dispatched? Or are they meant to stay in dark plastic tubs for their (short) lives with no happiness whatsoever?

Dont take it personally - I feel very strongly about animal welfare, especially rats as I breed them, and to me they are more pets than my snakes are as they are more intelligent and enjoy human company and deserve as much care.

I dont know how someone could keep them and not care enough about them to give them even basic environmental enrichment. Makes them no different to any rodent or battery farm.


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

"Why? Why is it important not to give them toys? Cant they have a happy life before they're dispatched? Or are they meant to stay in dark plastic tubs for their (short) lives with no happiness whatsoever?

Dont take it personally - I feel very strongly about animal welfare, especially rats as I breed them, and to me they are more pets than my snakes are as they are more intelligent and enjoy human company and deserve as much care.

I dont know how someone could keep them and not care enough about them to give them even basic environmental enrichment. Makes them no different to any rodent or battery farm.


oi
i didnt say i dont care for them, but i dont look at them the same way as you,
and didnt say it was important not to give toys, 
wtf is this comming from ??

i dont give them toys as such ropes parrott toys etc ,but they get "toilet rolls" ,

but i bloody do care about there health food warmth etc,


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think there's an important distinction between mass breeding with no welfare, such as the many rodent farms in and out of this country (one famous rodent establishment springs to mind, they are over here and not abroad as far as I'm aware, and are disgusting), and breeding on a larger scale for food but to a good welfare standard. Just as most sensible people shun battery farmed chickens, we should avoid establishments that cram their rats into small plastic boxes and do not provide stimulation or proper care. It's no different. 

I have snakes and care about them too, and frankly I'd rather feed them gravel than the rubbish these farms churn out. It's not just about the rodent welfare (although this is most important to me personally), it's about the welfare of people's snakes. Of course to feed more ethically we have to source ethical food for our snakes or breed our own. Some people aren't up to that, but I'd rather give up snakes than feed them the rats/mice from a rodent farm. It's not a compromise I'm willing to make. So it's not just "fluffy" pet rat owners (of which I am also proud to be a member lol) that would or should sign this petition.

ETA: In the spirit of fairness, if anyone has photos from inside Simon's Rodents that differ from what I've heard and witnessed, please show them here.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

rockkeeper said:


> oi
> i didnt say i dont care for them, but i dont look at them the same way as you,
> and didnt say it was important not to give toys,
> wtf is this comming from ??
> ...


I did say dont take it personally - it wasn't a personal attack - it was to anyone who thinks like this, it was genuine questions - eg at what point do people switch off and see them as a food item and not an animal in their own right which deserves a happy life being able to express normal behaviour (climbing, digging, playing, etc).


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> If your dogs, cats, etc were raised in such shit conditions, you'd be in an uproar, but because it's a rodent you're not fussed? I think that's very sad.


 puppy farming is a huge problem in the uk and the dogs have the most horrendous lives and people still by the pups.How big a problem is rodent farming?The local pet shop put the chap who supplies him with frozen chicks in touch with me because he couldn't get much of a supply of mice in this country and was having to import them from France.How many rodent farms are there,if it's just one or two and conditions are poor can they not just have a visit from the rspca?It doesn't sound like a huge industry over here.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I know of two or three major rodent farms, including Simon's rodents. And they're all supposedly on a similar scale to the pictures. And as poor conditions.

Most pet shops stock rats from these places (usually either Simon's Rodents or the big place I think is in Essex), so the animals are born in tubs, raised in tubs, with no handling, shovelled (literally) into more tubs, shipped across the country and put in tiny tanks in pet shops with people staring and poking at them all day and no room to move, play, climb etc.

Even those pet shops who say they use a good breeder usually (99% of the time) mean Simon's Rodents or the like. Our pet shop said they use a good breeder, I asked who, and after a while got out of them that they're shipped in in mixed sexes from Simon's Rodents or the Essex place. That IS their idea of a good breeder. Of course, they dont care if they come in pregnant - as the owners are told to bring them back to the shop for them to sell on and make even more profit!

And then you get your pet shops who DO get their rats from (what they call) local "breeders". What that means is people who breed too much to be able to sell on their own, or cant be bothered homing responsibily, who would rather part with them in return for some food and a few quid, and not have any responsibility for the rest of their lives. These are the rats filling up rescues - these and the "accidental" babies they and their rodent farmed friends produce from being kept in mixed groups "accidentally".

There is no such thing as a good pet shop supplier, big or small. Which is why I hate pet shops with a vengeance, and try not to shop there if I can help it (I go in for a look now and again but rarely part with cash in the one which stocks animals), apart from one market stand and our local Jollye's which dont sell pets *hallelujah!*.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Most pet shops stock rats from these places (usually either Simon's Rodents *or the big place I think is in Essex)*, so the animals are born in tubs, raised in tubs, with no handling, shovelled (literally) into more tubs, shipped across the country and put in tiny tanks in pet shops with people staring and poking at them all day and no room to move, play, climb etc.


Yup, Essex Breeders are (or rather, were) bigger then S****y Rodents.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

sarahc said:


> puppy farming is a huge problem in the uk and the dogs have the most horrendous lives and people still by the pups.How big a problem is rodent farming?The local pet shop put the chap who supplies him with frozen chicks in touch with me because he couldn't get much of a supply of mice in this country and was having to import them from France.How many rodent farms are there,if it's just one or two and conditions are poor can they not just have a visit from the rspca?It doesn't sound like a huge industry over here.


Most petshops are supplied by them, including many branches of PAH. They also supply much of the reptile food produced in this country, although a lot of what you buy to feed snakes nowadays is sourced from Europe (which makes it even worse quality wise). It is a bigger problem than most average folks would know, especially when petshops still claim to get their rats from "local breeders". This is often a lie, it certainly is in the case of the main petshops in my area (with the exception of one new one). Our market petshop uses Simon's Rodents (who breed on a massive scale in very poor standards, sending pregnant and ill rats to petshops), it will sell other people's accidental litters when they sell them unsexed pregnant animals though. The three newest fosters here came from a lady that kept taking the babies back to them at days old when she was sold a boy and a girl together, so that mistake earned them a pretty penny, but that's another story!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

And people wonder why their rats/hamsters/rodents arent tame when they come from the pet shop. It's because they probably have never been handled at all since birth.

I handle my babies from a day after birth, the first week is critical for taming rats. And they are handled daily for the first week, twice daily at least from then on, and usually 3-4 times a day in the last few weeks (as they're too much fun to leave alone!).:lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LoveForLizards said:


> Yup, Essex Breeders are (or rather, were) bigger then S****y Rodents.


We should make it clear we mean specific mass breeders in Essex, not breeders of the Essex variety, or decent breeders in Essex lol.


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## Horatio (Jul 16, 2009)

sarahc said:


> puppy farming is a huge problem in the uk and the dogs have the most horrendous lives and people still by the pups.How big a problem is rodent farming?The local pet shop put the chap who supplies him with frozen chicks in touch with me because he couldn't get much of a supply of mice in this country and was having to import them from France.How many rodent farms are there,if it's just one or two and conditions are poor can they not just have a visit from the rspca?It doesn't sound like a huge industry over here.


 
Does it matter if it's only a 'small problem' anyway? It's still animals suffering.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> We should make it clear we mean specific mass breeders in Essex, not breeders of the Essex variety, or decent breeders in Essex lol.


"Essex Breeders" is the biggest mass producer of rodents in Essex (maybe even the country). :whistling2:: victory:


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

If anyone has a problem with any licensed animal breeder surly the best place to mention it is the local authority.
If places are as bad as people are saying then report them to the licensing authority.
That is normaly the enviromental health officer of your district councle.


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## Horatio (Jul 16, 2009)

SnakeBreeder said:


> If anyone has a problem with any licensed animal breeder surly the best place to mention it is the local authority.
> If places are as bad as people are saying then report them to the licensing authority.
> That is normaly the enviromental health officer of your district councle.


Oh I have done so in the past, believe me.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*suffering*



Horatio said:


> Does it matter if it's only a 'small problem' anyway? It's still animals suffering.


I wasn't suggesting it didn't matter.I meant can't they be dealt with directly if there is a problem .With respect for your compassion,I think a petition will get you nowhere.People are willing to turn a blind eye to practices involved in producing bigger more 'appealing' animals.Not much realistic hope for the rat.Slightly off topic but just as an illustration for the lack of rodent compassion,have you seen those dreadful sticky rat traps.The rats stick to them and chew their own feet off in a vain effort to free themselves only to get the stumps stuck and then starve unless someone puts them out of their misery.Now that is cruel and legal


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## Horatio (Jul 16, 2009)

Yep, they're disgusting. I have seen petitions about hose before too, on the government petition site. Ignored of course! 

I was just asked to spread the word by a friend about this one, it's not actually MY petition.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

SnakeBreeder said:


> If anyone has a problem with any licensed animal breeder surly the best place to mention it is the local authority.
> If places are as bad as people are saying then report them to the licensing authority.
> That is normaly the enviromental health officer of your district councle.


Local councils licence these places and get a nice bit of money from them for doing so - it pays for them to ignore animal welfare issues. I reported one animal abusing petshop to the local council, it turned out they had passed their inspection that morning despite having black water bottles and cramped, visibly poorly animals. The law sadly does not protect these animals enough, as Sarah has quite rightly pointed out. 

These places ARE as bad as we're saying, just until someone does something about it instead of turning a blind eye and saying "Oh well if the council say it's ok it must be ok" (remind you of anyone?) then nothing will change. It's as much the regular snake owner's responsibility as anyone else's to ensure they source their pet's food ethically. If it's important to them that is, and that's entirely their choice.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The thing is - the licensing authority will do a big fat feck all about it. Because rodent farms dont need to adhere to any sort of animal welfare legislation (at least not that says they must have adequate space to exhibit natural behaviour). The housing of these animals is common knowledge (breeder racks like those in the pictures), and they are allowed to keep animals like that. What good will telling the licensing people do? Edited to add: whereas us decent breeders DO have to stick to RSPCA guidelines eg if someone reported me for keeping my rats overcrowded, I'd be prosecuted, but will rodent farms be for much MUCH worse conditions? Noo...

I will put my hands up and say I haven't signed the petition. Not because I dont agree with it (far from it) but because it's only an online petition, and the government wont take any notice of it. Had it been on the Downing Street site or on paper and going to be taken to Downing Street, it might mean more.

I'm not being rude to whoever started it - I just think there's an awful lot of people who start these petitions on sites like this and never see them through, and the government aren't going to take any notice of an online petition like that.

I'm really glad it's being posted on many forums though (thanks Kate) because it raises awareness of the horrible conditions most of our pet shop animals have come from. Time for a ban to pet shop sales - I'll sign that one!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> IMO yes, that makes them a bad breeder. But my ethics dont have to match yours or anyone elses, ethics are personal. I would avoid anyone who sold rats through pet shops personally because you cant keep tracks of the health and temperament of your lines if you send them out in batches and never find out where they go.
> 
> And vice versa, any breeder who's not willing to hand out their details to prospective owners I would avoid too.
> 
> ...


My breeder will take back any rodents that do not sell & grow too big for sale, or any that might be brought back for whatever reason by the customer. Thats a good breeder in my eyes!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I know of two or three major rodent farms, including Simon's rodents. And they're all supposedly on a similar scale to the pictures. And as poor conditions.
> 
> Most pet shops stock rats from these places (usually either Simon's Rodents or the big place I think is in Essex), so the animals are born in tubs, raised in tubs, with no handling, shovelled (literally) into more tubs, shipped across the country and put in tiny tanks in pet shops with people staring and poking at them all day and no room to move, play, climb etc.
> 
> ...


My breeder does also sell privately. And see my previous post above.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> And people wonder why their rats/hamsters/rodents arent tame when they come from the pet shop. It's because they probably have never been handled at all since birth.
> 
> I handle my babies from a day after birth, the first week is critical for taming rats. And they are handled daily for the first week, twice daily at least from then on, and usually 3-4 times a day in the last few weeks (as they're too much fun to leave alone!).:lol2:


All the rats, mice & Syrian hamsters in my shop are friendly little critters due to the breeder handling them at a young age. I was always rather wary of handling Syrians due to being bitten on far too many occasions to remember during my 5 years working at my local branch of PAH, but now I have no worries about handling the Syrians we get in at the shop.


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> I'm sorry, but I won't be signing the petition. I sure as heck am not going to legislate my snake food out of existence.
> 
> You can do more to prevent rodent farmers from selling live rodents to pet shops by *not buying pet rodents in pet shops* and even by boycotting pet shops that sell rodents. Tell them why you won't shop there any more - if enough people do it, then pet shops will HAVE to stop selling pet rodents.
> 
> And yes, Rockkeeper, the photograph shown on the petition is of a rodent farm in Europe.


 
I agree
We breed our own rodents for snake food (sounds horrid I know)
I know myself are clean, fresh food and water everyday, well looked after etc as Im in their room 2/3 times a day checking on them and things. Like Ssthisto said boycott the places then they have no choice but to stop.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> My breeder does also sell privately. And see my previous post above.


But do they vet homes, keep in touch throughout their lives, do you give new owners the breeders details so that they can keep them informed of any health or temperament issues throughout their lives?

If so - then they are the first "breeder" I've heard of who sells to pet shops and does so. In most cases, the pet shop and breeder refuse to give details out.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> But do they vet homes, keep in touch throughout their lives, do you give new owners the breeders details so that they can keep them informed of any health or temperament issues throughout their lives?
> 
> If so - then they are the first "breeder" I've heard of who sells to pet shops and does so. In most cases, the pet shop and breeder refuse to give details out.


It is not done as standard, but if a customer wanted to contact the breeder, that could be done.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> It is not done as standard, but if a customer wanted to contact the breeder, that could be done.


 
isn't it true that you take all the new owners details of any pet you sell as standard tho? So you have all their details, address and phone number?

I know the answer to this hun already lol I know it's a yes.

And Arthur has some bloody gorgeous Rex's dosen't he!! lol


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Pimperella said:


> isn't it true that you take all the new owners details of any pet you sell as standard tho? So you have all their details, address and phone number?
> 
> I know the answer to this hun already lol I know it's a yes.
> 
> And Arthur has some bloody gorgeous Rex's dosen't he!! lol


Thats right Pimp, we take th details of anyone buying livestock.

And yes, Arthur is brill! His rabbits are top-notch! :notworthy:


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I don't see what is so special about that, it is now the law that details of name/address etc should be taken upon the sale of any live animal through a commercial establishment.



> My breeder will take back any rodents that do not sell & grow too big for sale, or any that might be brought back for whatever reason by the customer. Thats a good breeder in my eyes!


Not necessarily, that might be good from your point of view but what does s/he do with them when they get them back? 

I don't like rodent farms but I won't sign the petition for many reasons, partly because I think it will be ineffective and secondly because as a reptile owner, I can sympathize with those that need to obtain frozen rodents easily (although I personally do not use rodent farm bred rodents for my reptiles).

Out of interest Zoo-Man, what % of your breeders are active members of a breed/club authority?? I am not saying that only good breeders are members of such clubs, I am just genuinely interested. A lot of people within these circuits would not admit to selling to pet shops yet they very much do!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> My breeder will take back any rodents that do not sell & grow too big for sale, or any that might be brought back for whatever reason by the customer. Thats a good breeder in my eyes!


Simon's Rodents offer this service. They still send the shops pregnant and ill animals. I've had the fallout here. I would be interested to know what would've happened to the four does I took that didn't sell at the petshop, that were 4 months old when they got there if they were a day. One had nine ill babies from not being seperated before being sent to the shop, one had chronic mycoplasma infection, all four had lice and had never been handled. If they'd have gone back they'd have been killed, simple as. And considering how inhumanely they obviously kept these rats, I wouldn't trust them to kill them humanely either. If people want to support that sort of ill treatment of animals in the name of cheap food, you're right that no petition will change that. I would prefer to know which shops use these places though so I can never give them money.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

So does your breeder/Arthur check up on their health and temperament throughout their lives, and make breeding decisions based on that?

Fair enough you might be able to get in touch with him - which is one step better than a rodent farm, but still not ideal if he's not prepared to chase people up himself.

He could be breeding rats riddled with cancer and temperament problems and not know a thing unless the owners complained. And if they dont get his details given out as standard, that's unlikely. But then - it's good business for the pet shops, right, as they'll come back and buy some more!

Fair dos, his animals might be nice to look at, but do you know the long term health of all of the ones you've sold for him? Does he? How about behavioural problems? Has he made breeding choices based on feedback from owners? Does he have a contract which states all animals must come back to him if circumstances change and they need rehoming? What age does he bring them in, are they kept in mixed sexes, have there ever been any accidents leading to males and females being in together and sold possibly pregnant?


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> So does your breeder/Arthur check up on their health and temperament throughout their lives, and make breeding decisions based on that?
> 
> Fair enough you might be able to get in touch with him - which is one step better than a rodent farm, but still not ideal if he's not prepared to chase people up himself.
> 
> ...


 
Arthur happens to have been breeding *rabbits* for 50 years!! Not rats. Proves you don't read posts cause Zooman said this quite clearly.
Not just that he has some of the best show winning rex rabbits. He knows more than you could ever forget. He knows his lines inside and out. So he has no need to check up on them, being as he has does and bucks of his own lines that are 13 and 14 years old and still going strong! 
So really, before you start spouting off you should really have asked in a far better manner than you did. But your brief time you've been breeding rats, you know everything don't you and god forbid someone should have a different opinion to yours lol


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It's my opinion, one that's shared by many - not just a whim I've made up myself. The majority of good breeders would agree that information back from their owners is vitally important.

Just because his rabbits have survived doesn't mean that his owners ones have! It's basic common sense.

You always have to turn something into a fight, dont you Pimps.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> It's my opinion, one that's shared by many - not just a whim I've made up myself. The majority of good breeders would agree that information back from their owners is vitally important.
> 
> Just because his rabbits have survived doesn't mean that his owners ones have! It's basic common sense.
> 
> You always have to turn something into a fight, dont you Pimps.


 
Well yes, when your slagging off one of the top rabbit breeders in the country. He has a lengthy track record of his rabbits.
but you will go round slagging people off when you haven't any basis for it.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I didnt slag anyone off - I asked about his breeding ethics, something anyone buying from a breeder or interested in a breeder should do.

It's you who's got all defensive and started bitching - tell me - is there a reason why you're so defensive about those who sell in pet shops? Educate me as to how wonderful it is!


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> I didnt slag anyone off - I asked about his breeding ethics, something anyone buying from a breeder or interested in a breeder should do.
> 
> It's you who's got all defensive and started bitching - tell me - is there a reason why you're so defensive about those who sell in pet shops? Educate me as to how wonderful it is!


 
Nar, No more room up on my Pedistal. I'm athelicly built so it didn't need to be big and it's invite only dear.

Fact being you jump in with YOUR opinions withourt actualy having asked. Since as I am getting pm's appaulding me for having told you so, you don't have the support that you think.
You are blanket judgement, I however, judge things on a case by case basis.
Your blinkered by your own bloody minded opinions. I take the time to actually read peoples posts so much as to know the difference between a rat and a rabbit.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Who said I was even replying about the rabbits - I was asking about livestock in general, and then spoke of how I'd home my rats out and what I'd class as a good rat breeder.

I'm not on a pedestal, I just want to know how someone can assure the health and temperament of their lines when they dont know what happens to 90% of them.

It's you who's got all defensive - so you get pms thanking you for having a go at people who disagree with you? So what - that just proves how much of a bully you are. Well done - clap clap - we all bow down to you, we must agree with Big Pimperella Brother folks - heaven forbid you have a different view, you're well open to insult and bitching.

Christs sake - listen to yourself. I'm now allowed an opinion on good breeding ethics because you've bred longer than I have? Whoohoo - I'd rather breed for one year well than for 25 years poorly.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Whoohoo - I'd rather breed for one year well than for 25 years poorly.


 
:notworthy::notworthy:


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

KathyM said:


> It's as much the regular snake owner's responsibility as anyone else's to ensure they source their pet's food ethically. If it's important to them that is, and that's entirely their choice.


Are there any ethical sources of feeder mice? I'm genuinely interested. I only have one snake so it would be uneconomic (and I have no space) to breed my own feeders, so if there are any good sources of mice that aren't kept in those conditions I would like to know so at least I have a choice. If it is a more localised thing, somewhere in Angus or Aberdeenshire would be the area I'd need (possibly parts of Perthshire and Fife too).


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

If you look in my profile and search my threads, there's an old thread on the feeding board that I posted about this, that might be a help. Best of luck whatever you decide, it's a difficult situation for many people, there is a real niche in the market for decent quality and well kept mice for feeding, but I think I should leave the feeder discussion there as it can be quite upsetting for some on this particular section and I wouldn't want to go too far down that route when there's a feeder board to natter on. xx


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*ethical mice*



SilverSteno said:


> Are there any ethical sources of feeder mice? I'm genuinely interested. I only have one snake so it would be uneconomic (and I have no space) to breed my own feeders, so if there are any good sources of mice that aren't kept in those conditions I would like to know .


I breed mine for show and feed them a high quality diet and they have the best bedding available and room to do what mice like doing, no toys sorry.I along with most other mouse fanciers cull the ones that don't make the grade.They all go as frozen reptile food.I don't think I could bring myself to cull them otherwise.It also helps to offset the £30 it costs to keep them each week.The frozen chick man collects all mine every couple of months.I'm not close to you otherwise you would have been welcome,they live off the fat of the land.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

KathyM said:


> If you look in my profile and search my threads, there's an old thread on the feeding board that I posted about this, that might be a help. Best of luck whatever you decide, it's a difficult situation for many people, there is a real niche in the market for decent quality and well kept mice for feeding, but I think I should leave the feeder discussion there as it can be quite upsetting for some on this particular section and I wouldn't want to go too far down that route when there's a feeder board to natter on. xx


Thanks for that, a few people have mentioned feeder mice on here already and there was no mention of a good source and I think this is important as letting people know if there is a choice. As it stands, looks as if there isn't much out there!


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

sarahc said:


> I breed mine for show and feed them a high quality diet and they have the best bedding available and room to do what mice like doing, no toys sorry.I along with most other mouse fanciers cull the ones that don't make the grade.They all go as frozen reptile food.I don't think I could bring myself to cull them otherwise.It also helps to offset the £30 it costs to keep them each week.The frozen chick man collects all mine every couple of months.I'm not close to you otherwise you would have been welcome,they live off the fat of the land.


Isn't that always the way, people always seem to be so far away from me!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I was advised to get onto the fancy mice breeding forums and get mine off people on there. Don't know if that would be any use to you.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mattm said:


> I don't see what is so special about that, it is now the law that details of name/address etc should be taken upon the sale of any live animal through a commercial establishment.
> 
> *Not necessarily, that might be good from your point of view but what does s/he do with them when they get them back?*
> 
> ...


The breeders that take back animals will either keep them on or rehome them. 

I'm not sure about what percentage of the breeders are members of a club, & I do not ask, as it has little or nothing to do with producing good quality animals. I do know that our main rabbit breeder is a member of rabbits clubs & is well known in showing circles, as he is a top breeder & shower.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> So does your breeder/Arthur check up on their health and temperament throughout their lives, and make breeding decisions based on that?
> 
> Fair enough you might be able to get in touch with him - which is one step better than a rodent farm, but still not ideal if he's not prepared to chase people up himself.
> 
> ...


Arthur will happily tell me to give his number out to anyone needing help with their rabbit, even rabbits that haven't come from him. He has removed show rings from customer's rabbits, taken back rabbits that the customers say are aggressive, etc.


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## Horatio (Jul 16, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> I'd rather breed for one year well than for 25 years poorly.


Absolutely, totally agree.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> I'm not sure about what percentage of the breeders are members of a club, & I do not ask, as it has little or nothing to do with producing good quality animals.


I realize that, in fact I stated the same thing (in other words) in my post . I was just curious and as you seem to know a lot about your breeders and their ethics I thought you'd know that too.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> Arthur will happily tell me to give his number out to anyone needing help with their rabbit, even rabbits that haven't come from him. He has removed show rings from customer's rabbits, taken back rabbits that the customers say are aggressive, etc.


Aggressive? Are they not bred for temperament/handled well from a young age?!?!!

Also, although he may say "give out my number" not many businesses/pet shops would. It's all very well him saying that bit I bet you don't like to. What is to stop your customers going to him directly in the future, thus losing your customer base?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mattm said:


> Aggressive? Are they not bred for temperament/handled well from a young age?!?!!
> 
> Also, although he may say "give out my number" not many businesses/pet shops would. It's all very well him saying that bit I bet you don't like to. What is to stop your customers going to him directly in the future, thus losing your customer base?


I said that the customers say it is aggressive, not that the rabbit is actually aggressive. Such as rabbits who scratch when picked up - we know that that is not aggression, but to people who are not particularly au fay with rabbits think it is. These rabbits are bred from top show stock, which would obviously have to be steady in their temperament. They are handled from a young age to assess their quality.

We do give out his number if needed. We do not worry about customers going direct to him because he does not normally sell to the general public, rather he sells young to trusted shops (well, us & one other) & he sells young to others in the rabbit fancy for showing, breeding, etc.


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