# Keeping Gaboon Vipers



## bash_on_recce

Does anyone keep these here? I'm years (and I mean years) away from ever keeping a DWA species but this one facinates me. 

Knowing the effect the venom has on a person, do many people keep these?


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## Moshpitviper

Yes. Yes i do.


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## bash_on_recce

I know DWA are a different kettle of fish, but would you 'recommend' this speices? Have you had any close brishes with one or do they usually tend to behave?


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## Thrasops

I've never kept them personally but I've caught wild Puff Adders and assisted/ been present with feeding Gaboons... frankly, they are one of the scariest snakes I can imagine getting bitten by, those heads are HUGE, the fangs penetrate right into deep tissue, the amount of venom delivered can be immense and the effects it has on a human body are frightful...

There are two anecdotes related in Ludwig Trutnau's "Venomous Snakes" bible... one concerns a healthy adult male getting bitten by a juvenile, getting to hospital within a few minutes, receiving full antivenom treatment... and ten hours later he was dead... there was nothing anybody could do...

Another concerns a bloke who had witnessed the above bite, getting bitten on the finger... knowing what he could expect, his reaction was to run outside to the shed, pick up a hatchet and _chop his own finger off_...

Both species strike faster than you can react (usually you only see the "afterimage" of the white inside of the mouth before you even know there WAS a strike). The Gaboons have the advantage of _usually_ being docile and calm... but the way I see it, this is almost as much of a danger as having a defensive snake, as it can result in the keeper becoming complacent... all it takes is the snake to have one bad day...

Often the only indicator of an impending strike you get is a movement of the pupils in the snake's eyes... which is a bad thing, as this species is capable of striking its entire length _anywhere_ around it (including over its tail)... somebody used to having a slow, dopy, docile snake only has to put one hand wrong when the snake is having a bad day and... :bash:

They are popular for their pretty colours, mild temperaments and relative ease of keeping... but personally I feel they would be somewhat too much of a risk for me to keep in my own home and have to deal with on a regular basis. Another of those species that crosses the threshold of "risk vs. reward" for me. Having only kept a few small vipers in my youth, I'm really in no position to judge, but I would say they are not a great starter DWA.

Regards,
Francis


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## bash_on_recce

Thrasops said:


> I've never kept them personally but I've caught wild Puff Adders and assisted/ been present with feeding Gaboons... frankly, they are one of the scariest snakes I can imagine getting bitten by, those heads are HUGE, the fangs penetrate right into deep tissue, the amount of venom delivered can be immense and the effects it has on a human body are frightful...
> 
> There are two anecdotes related in Ludwig Trutnau's "Venomous Snakes" bible... one concerns a healthy adult male getting bitten by a juvenile, getting to hospital within a few minutes, receiving full antivenom treatment... and ten hours later he was dead... there was nothing anybody could do...
> 
> Another concerns a bloke who had witnessed the above bite, getting bitten on the finger... knowing what he could expect, his reaction was to run outside to the shed, pick up a hatchet and _chop his own finger off_...
> 
> Both species strike faster than you can react (usually you only see the "afterimage" of the white inside of the mouth before you even know there WAS a strike). The Gaboons have the advantage of _usually_ being docile and calm... but the way I see it, this is almost as much of a danger as having a defensive snake, as it can result in the keeper becoming complacent... all it takes is the snake to have one bad day...
> 
> Often the only indicator of an impending strike you get is a movement of the pupils in the snake's eyes... which is a bad thing, as this species is capable of striking its entire length _anywhere_ around it (including over its tail)... somebody used to having a slow, dopy, docile snake only has to put one hand wrong when the snake is having a bad day and... :bash:
> 
> They are popular for their pretty colours, mild temperaments and relative ease of keeping... but personally I feel they would be somewhat too much of a risk for me to keep in my own home and have to deal with on a regular basis. Another of those species that crosses the threshold of "risk vs. reward" for me. Having only kept a few small vipers in my youth, I'm really in no position to judge, but I would say they are not a great starter DWA.
> 
> Regards,
> Francis


Thanks for the informative reply  I did worry that sticking my head out to ask in the DWA forums ment I might get it bitten off for showing too much interest!

I had read they were not a good DWA snake to start with in Barron's 'Viper' book, there's a small video on you tube about a keeper becoming complacent and getting bitten in America, scary stuff. But then she often let them roam around the room while she cleaned them out, I couldn't believe the idiocy!

Well I've decided to adopt the pair at Chester Zoo, I think that should satisfy me for now


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## Moshpitviper

bash_on_recce said:


> I know DWA are a different kettle of fish, but would you 'recommend' this speices? Have you had any close brishes with one or do they usually tend to behave?


They have a reputation for being sluggish... They are anything but sluggish. 

Lightning fast beautiful wads of turd with daggers in their heads springs suscinctly to mind.


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## Thrasops

bash_on_recce said:


> Thanks for the informative reply  I did worry that sticking my head out to ask in the DWA forums ment I might get it bitten off for showing too much interest!
> 
> I had read they were not a good DWA snake to start with in Barron's 'Viper' book, there's a small video on you tube about a keeper becoming complacent and getting bitten in America, scary stuff. But then she often let them roam around the room while she cleaned them out, I couldn't believe the idiocy!
> 
> Well I've decided to adopt the pair at Chester Zoo, I think that should satisfy me for now


Nothing wrong with asking... :2thumb:

For "starter" venomous, Copperheads are oft-touted, although they are one species I have no experience with... but many European _Vipera_ are wonderful captives, quite docile, remain small and most (_V. berus_ being the big exception) are very easy to keep and breed.

I was catching and keeping _Vipera latastei_, _V. aspis_ and _V. seoanei_ from when I was about twelve and all three of these species adapted as well to captivity as any other snake I had kept at that point (in fact given that most of the snakes I was keeping were flighty, nervous whip snakes and Montpelliers, I would even say that the vipers did _better_).


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## bash_on_recce

Thrasops said:


> Nothing wrong with asking... :2thumb:
> 
> For "starter" venomous, Copperheads are oft-touted, although they are one species I have no experience with... but many European _Vipera_ are wonderful captives, quite docile, remain small and most (_V. berus_ being the big exception) are very easy to keep and breed.
> 
> I was catching and keeping _Vipera latastei_, _V. aspis_ and _V. seoanei_ from when I was about twelve and all three of these species adapted as well to captivity as any other snake I had kept at that point (in fact given that most of the snakes I was keeping were flighty, nervous whip snakes and Montpelliers, I would even say that the vipers did _better_).


It suggests Copperheads as a 'starter' venomous snake in the same book, they are quite nice considereing I'd never looked at Rattlesnakes much.

It suggests them it says, because even though the bite is venomous and will hurt, its not likely to kill a healthy adult. Is there other reasons why this snake is classed as a good starter?


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## Thrasops

bash_on_recce said:


> It suggests Copperheads as a 'starter' venomous snake in the same book, they are quite nice considereing I'd never looked at Rattlesnakes much.
> 
> It suggests them it says, because even though the bite is venomous and will hurt, its not likely to kill a healthy adult. Is there other reasons why this snake is classed as a good starter?


I would guess because they are easy to keep and acclimate and not too fussy when it comes to food, but again I have no experience to speak of with them... I did see a rather good video the other day on the subject of "starter" venomous... let me see if I can find it for you...

Here it is: The Venom Interviews - sample chapter: "Mentors & Starter Species" on Vimeo

Have to admit the Gaboon at the beginning of the video is a gorgeous specimen! Look at that ivory head!


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## DaveWillisHertsARG

*Listen to Francis!*

Absolutely. Whilst very attractive, these animals have an undeserved reputation for being forgivingly placid which has led some people to treat them with complacency. Admittedly, I've encountered very few, but, for example, I remember one of the former Poole Aquarium staff telling me about males during mating season - not to be messed with. He gave the same warning about assuming their 'gentle' natures. Not that the OP is necessarily.

As Francis mentioned, European vipers are great - _Vipera_, _Montivipera_ and _Microvipera_ but still not to be taken for granted.


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## chondro13

I have a baby gabby, hes absolutely stunning but by far the most 'scary' snake that I own (for lack of a better way to put it). If you go too close, the noise he makes is quite awe-inspiring - safe to say you sure as hell would not want to disgruntle him... They are heavy bodied snakes and actually quite tricky to hook (in my opinion). I certainly would not recommend them as a first venomous snake, but they are really REALLY fascinating animals, and husbandry-wise not too difficult to keep.


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## Logi72

My mistake I read it the wrong way.

Why are Gaboons so bad? Surely if you underestimate them you don't deserve any hot snake..isn't a good starter what you're comfortable and capable of handling?


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## coldestblood

Logi72 said:


> My mistake I read it the wrong way.
> 
> Why are Gaboons so bad? Surely if you underestimate them you don't deserve any hot snake..isn't a good starter what you're comfortable and capable of handling?


How will you know if you're underestimating it?


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## Logi72

Well once you get bitten lol

So you over estimate, and make sure you're safe. Just as you would with any potentially legal snake. But I'm sure there are plenty of people who've had Gabs as their first well that's a fact


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## greenvenom

With any gaboon you cant afford to make any mistake what so ever, so that is why they are not recommend as a starter snake along with a lot of elapids.
A bite from a gaboon is a very serious matter that may lead to disfigurement if you are lucky, but more likely leading to amputation, or death.
My experience with keeping both b gabonica and b rhinoceros, is that b gabonica are a lot more aggressive than b rhinoceros.
With respect a lot of people on this forum they will not have witnessed a gaboon with a strop on or the speed and power that they can strike at.
I have photos of some of my gaboons in my rfuk album, and a video of them mating on YouTube under gaboonvipers mating by mr greenvenom.


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## Moshpitviper

greenvenom said:


> With any gaboon you cant afford to make any mistake what so ever, so that is why they are not recommend as a starter snake along with a lot of elapids.
> A bite from a gaboon is a very serious matter that may lead to disfigurement if you are lucky, but more likely leading to amputation, or death.
> My experience with keeping both b gabonica and b rhinoceros, is that b gabonica are a lot more aggressive than b rhinoceros.
> With respect a lot of people on this forum they will not have witnessed a gaboon with a strop on or the speed and power that they can strike at.
> I have photos of some of my gaboons in my rfuk album, and a video of them mating on YouTube under gaboonvipers mating by mr greenvenom.


I have had to deal with a large nasicornis on a bad day. That was interesting to say the least :whistling2:


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## stuartdouglas

Logi72 said:


> My mistake I read it the wrong way.
> 
> Why are Gaboons so bad? Surely if you underestimate them you don't deserve any hot snake..isn't a good starter what you're comfortable and capable of handling?


A 'good' starter venomous is one that is consistent in it's behaviour, hardy, tolerant of a fairly broad range of environmental conditions, good feeder and not 'mental'

Venom strength has little to do with how good a starter snake a species may or may not be.

For my 2p worth, some of the arboreal Pitvipers such as _T trigonocephalus, V Gumprechti, C albolabris_ etc. are a good choice for a starter or _V ammodytes_ for a terrestrial snake. I'd even go so far as to say that _C atrox_ is a fairly good starter, you will normally get plenty of warning when you're doing something you shouldn't.

As Francis said, Gab's lie there, looking like a bump on a log for 99% of the time, 99% of the time you could work around the snake in the viv, then there's the 1% when it decides that today's the day and you get nailed, because the bump on a log can bite you pretty much no matter where you are in relation to it.


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## stuartdouglas

Logi72 said:


> Well once you get bitten lol
> 
> So you over estimate, and make sure you're safe. Just as you would with any potentially legal snake. But I'm sure there are plenty of people who've had Gabs as their first *well that's a fact*


Is it? I don't know of anyone who took on a Gab' as a first hot. I addition to the unpredictability of these animals, they are extremely susceptible to stress and an inexperienced keeper may well find that their new Gabby drops dead on them for no apparent reason.


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## Yorkshire Gator

personally i don't keep hot's, but if i did iknow i wouldn't start with a gab


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## DragonHelm

Good post Francis, I love gabs my favorite Viper, but if you get hit by one of these you are more or less dead I think, were would you get anti venum from and would it work? I saw some at Hamm this year amazing so cheap too wanted one.


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## Sliverer

I usually adopt the voyeur role on this site but I figured recently that I should get a bit more involved. Speaking from my own experience, I wasn't hugely experienced before getting involved with venomous snakes and I chose to start with an Eyelash Viper. I've since kept Waglers and Copperheads and have found the Copperhead the easiest with the exception of hooking. The other 2 were also pretty easy with the Waglers being the grumpiest. I’d recommend any of these species for the less experienced, assuming that you can get a good quality Waglers, something I've found hard to do, and get your Eyelash post its first few sheds. 
I’d love a Gaboon and have considered it a few times but I've opted against it due to pretty well what’s been spoken of on this thread.


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## Crotalid

stuartdouglas said:


> Is it? I don't know of anyone who took on a Gab' as a first hot. I addition to the unpredictability of these animals, they are extremely susceptible to stress and an *inexperienced keeper may well find that their new Gabby drops dead on them for no apparent reason.*


Really? 

They are a straight forward species to keep, if you can't keep a Gaboon alive then you don't have a chance with any other snake.

Nothing wrong with a Gaboon as a first in my opinion, if you can't respect the snake enough to be aware of their unpredictability then you don't deserve any hot - they should all be treated as unpredictable.


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## stuartdouglas

Crotalid said:


> Really?
> 
> They are a straight forward species to keep, if you can't keep a Gaboon alive then you don't have a chance with any other snake.
> 
> Nothing wrong with a Gaboon as a first in my opinion, if you can't respect the snake enough to be aware of their unpredictability then you don't deserve any hot - they should all be treated as unpredictable.


Really? and perhaps you'd like to share *your* expeience of keeping venomous snakes with us all. I tend to go by the advice of a man who has kept and bred Bitis species for the last 25 years and add that to my own 30 odd years experience of snake keeping, both venomous and non venomous.......any Bitis that doesn't get peace and quiet will stress and likely DDD. I look forward to being educated otherwise by you......

You sound like someone who's just added a second account, just to get his point across


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## Crotalid

stuartdouglas said:


> Really? and perhaps you'd like to share *your* expeience of keeping venomous snakes with us all. I tend to go by the advice of a man who has kept and bred Bitis species for the last 25 years and add that to my own 30 odd years experience of snake keeping, both venomous and non venomous.......any Bitis that doesn't get peace and quiet will stress and likely DDD. I look forward to being educated otherwise by you......
> 
> You sound like someone who's just added a second account, just to get his point across


No, I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that interaction should be kept at a minimum. I was disagreeing with you on the fact you said an inexperienced keeper would find them dead. Reason being whomever they bought the gabs from would instruct them how to keep them (which is straight forward). Any Tom, Dick or Harry can look after one after they've been told what to do, it isn't like Pseudoxenodon bambusicola for example.


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## Bradleybradleyc

Stuart don't mean to sound stupid but what does DDD stand for ? :blush:


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## Lord Vetinari

Bradleybradleyc said:


> Stuart don't mean to sound stupid but what does DDD stand for ? :blush:


drop down dead


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## stuartdouglas

Crotalid said:


> No, I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that interaction should be kept at a minimum. I was disagreeing with you on the fact you said an inexperienced keeper would find them dead. Reason being whomever they bought the gabs from would instruct them how to keep them (which is straight forward). Any Tom, Dick or Harry can look after one after they've been told what to do, it isn't like Pseudoxenodon bambusicola for example.


And what is it you keep exactly? I missed that bit. 

Being told how to do something is another world from actually doing it yourself. You don't seem to be speaking from experience, just assumption.

As for suggesting a large, extremely unpredictable snake easily able to bite within a radius of it's own body length with a propensity for becoming easily stressed could easily be kept by a first-time venomous keeper with only instructions on their husbandry from the breeder/seller just show how little you actually know.....if you're actually speaking from experience thenshare your experience please.....if you're basing it upon assumption, what a 'mate down the pub' said or, heaven forbid, the Great God Google......spare us .....please


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## Bradleybradleyc

Lord Vetinari said:


> drop down dead


Thanks never heard that abbreviation before :2thumb:


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## Crotalid

stuartdouglas said:


> And what is it you keep exactly? I missed that bit.
> 
> Being told how to do something is another world from actually doing it yourself. You don't seem to be speaking from experience, just assumption.
> 
> As for suggesting a large, extremely unpredictable snake easily able to bite within a radius of it's own body length with a propensity for becoming easily stressed could easily be kept by a first-time venomous keeper with only instructions on their husbandry from the breeder/seller just show how little you actually know.....if you're actually speaking from experience thenshare your experience please.....if you're basing it upon assumption, what a 'mate down the pub' said or, heaven forbid, the Great God Google......spare us .....please


I keep the aforementioned species. 

You're taking what i said out of context. My post was with regards to the care of Gaboons, and that it's simple enough to cater to their needs husbandry wise. I don't see how you can think it's difficult, but everyone has their own perceptions of what's hard and what isn't. 

With respect to keeping Gaboons as a first hot, i don't see the issue. If you have worked with these snakes prior to obtaining your own and feel comfortable working with them, go for it. That's my view, and there are keepers who lurk in the shadows who have a similar view point but don't bother with forums. 

On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has different capabilities.


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## Sliverer

Gotta agree with SD on this one. I don't think that he's taken what's been said out of context at all, he seems to be talking sense to me! I reckon the toxicity and unpredictability of a Gaboon Viper means that keeping such a specie is inherently more difficult, even if there are fairly simple things that you can do to mitigate against any problems, those problems still exist! If you're going to make a mistake with a venomous snake then surely that mistake is more likely to happen early on when you're less experienced and therefore you'd want to start with a less toxic and less unpredictable snake.

Of course there are some species that are more suitable for beginner keepers than others, there's no doubt about this whatsoever. A small, less toxic, easily kept viper is clearly more suitable than something super fast/dangerous/agressive/toxic etc etc.


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## stuartdouglas

'there's no particularly bad first hot'......are you for real? So you keep gabs then? 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2


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## Crotalid

stuartdouglas said:


> 'there's no particularly bad first hot'......are you for real? So you keep gabs then?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2


If you read what i said properly "On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has *different capabilities*."

Different capabilities means that one person may have only worked with a few copperheads & rattlers, another may have worked with various elapids, before obtaining their own. Just because it's somebody's first venomous snake does not mean they've had minimal interaction with them. Example, i have friends that have worked with a range of cobras, including Kings (But own no venomous snakes themselves) - they're in a completely different boat to person X who has only handled an albolabris. Something that would suitable for them, wouldn't be for person X, yet it would be their first hots for either party. It's a case by case situation.

If everyone started keeping hots with no experience at all, then of course there are some species you would advise them against. 

Yes.


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## stuartdouglas

Crotalid said:


> If you read what i said properly "On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has *different capabilities*."
> 
> Different capabilities means that one person may have only worked with a few copperheads & rattlers, another may have worked with various elapids, before obtaining their own. Just because it's somebody's first venomous snake does not mean they've had minimal interaction with them. Example, i have friends that have worked with a range of cobras, including Kings (But own no venomous snakes themselves) - they're in a completely different boat to person X who has only handled an albolabris. Something that would suitable for them, wouldn't be for person X, yet it would be their first hots for either party. It's a case by case situation.
> 
> If everyone started keeping hots with no experience at all, then of course there are some species you would advise them against.
> 
> Yes.


Personally, I think you're full of ****....it just reminds me of why I steered well clear of this forum for so long and why it's a waste of time trying to offer any advice based upon solid experience......you crack on and good luck to you and anyone who listens to you.


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## coldestblood

Getting started with hots isn't as it is with none venomous. If you're new to retics, you do your research, and get a baby. Simple. Take the same approach to hots, and it could end very bady. Even babies can kill.

I think gabbies are a bad choice for a beginner. They're way too easy to underetimate. They often appear calm, sluggish, and uninterested. This could cause you to overestimate you're abilities, and misunderstand what they're actually capable of. 

Unless you've seen a pissed off gabby (in the flesh), it's hard to 'get' how dangerous they really are. There are experienced hot keepers who won't go near them. Thats got to say something?

I know a couple of people who started with gabbies. One is a regular on here, and has a VERY nice collection :mf_dribble:. The other bought a sub adult, which he soon swapped for a western diamondback


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## Lambretta

I'd say start with boigas maybe just to get into the habit of being extremely careful, as imo with a gaboon you just simply can't risk it unless you have years and years of experience and mainly understanding of the species.

Gaboons are very heavy-bodied and chunky snakes which could make it difficult to work with. I would personally ignore people who claim they're docile snakes. They're unpredictable, just like every other dangerous animal and one should never underestimate their capabilities if they decided to bust you up :devil:


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## Atticus22

I went to the Cotswolds Wildlife Park the other day, they have a gorgeous Gaboon Viper there, and seeing it made my mind go into overdrive the rest of the day about possibly getting a DWA just to have one and be able to have it in an amazing naturalistic leaf litter setup etc etc etc, went home, had a quick look at the steps needed for a DWA license to refresh my memory, watched this video..

(Skip to 3.00 mins)

Scary Short: "Say Ahhhhhh" - YouTube

and literally said out loud, "F*CK THAT!"


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## djlu55

I too, must agree with SD.

And I think, Crotalid, that you have now suddenly started backtracking with your last post. Initially you were saying you don't see the harm in owning a gabby as one's first hot snake, then only after (in your last post) add that it is with experience of venomous snakes. 
I think what SD and others were saying from the start is that a gabby as a first hot snake is bad news - by first hot snake, they mean first hot snake owned and/or cared for, assuming no previous experience.

You said 'On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has different capabilities. '

I think that there are, like non-venomous, snakes better suited to first-time keepers and some that are suited to keepers with more experience. Say, a corn smake from a retic, or tree python, or whatever. In addition to extra husbandry needs, there comes temperament. Now for a big python, that is more of a factor than a corn - being tagged by a 10-footer is no fun.

By the same measurement, being tagged by a gabby is going to leave you slightly worse off than say, a copperhead or a Pope's tree viper or whatever. Firsdt-time keepers will always get bitten, be it a corn, boa, viper or cobra. It's a learning process. So with a hot snake, surely it makes sense to learn on something that isn't going to kill you or leave you very severely disabled - gain the confidence and experience on something like that first, before tackling a potentially fatal taxon.
Everyone has gotten complacent in their early days of keeping, be they venomous or not. And if anyone says otherwise, they are bloody lying.


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## Moshpitviper

djlu55 said:


> I too, must agree with SD.
> 
> And I think, Crotalid, that you have now suddenly started backtracking with your last post. Initially you were saying you don't see the harm in owning a gabby as one's first hot snake, then only after (in your last post) add that it is with experience of venomous snakes.
> I think what SD and others were saying from the start is that a gabby as a first hot snake is bad news - by first hot snake, they mean first hot snake owned and/or cared for, assuming no previous experience.
> 
> You said 'On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has different capabilities. '
> 
> I think that there are, like non-venomous, snakes better suited to first-time keepers and some that are suited to keepers with more experience. Say, a corn smake from a retic, or tree python, or whatever. In addition to extra husbandry needs, there comes temperament. Now for a big python, that is more of a factor than a corn - being tagged by a 10-footer is no fun.
> 
> By the same measurement, being tagged by a gabby is going to leave you slightly worse off than say, a copperhead or a Pope's tree viper or whatever. Firsdt-time keepers will always get bitten, be it a corn, boa, viper or cobra. It's a learning process. So with a hot snake, surely it makes sense to learn on something that isn't going to kill you or leave you very severely disabled - gain the confidence and experience on something like that first, before tackling a potentially fatal taxon.
> Everyone has gotten complacent in their early days of keeping, be they venomous or not. And if anyone says otherwise, they are bloody lying.


Never been bitten. Even early on. It is said that bites caused early on in hots keeping, are keepers over estimating their abilities..... Like keeping Gabs. :whistling2:


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## Crotalid

djlu55 said:


> I too, must agree with SD.
> 
> And I think, Crotalid, that you have now suddenly started backtracking with your last post. Initially you were saying you don't see the harm in owning a gabby as one's first hot snake, then only after (in your last post) add that it is with experience of venomous snakes.
> I think what SD and others were saying from the start is that a gabby as a first hot snake is bad news - by first hot snake, they mean first hot snake owned and/or cared for, assuming no previous experience.
> 
> You said 'On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has different capabilities. '
> 
> I think that there are, like non-venomous, snakes better suited to first-time keepers and some that are suited to keepers with more experience. Say, a corn smake from a retic, or tree python, or whatever. In addition to extra husbandry needs, there comes temperament. Now for a big python, that is more of a factor than a corn - being tagged by a 10-footer is no fun.
> 
> By the same measurement, being tagged by a gabby is going to leave you slightly worse off than say, a copperhead or a Pope's tree viper or whatever. Firsdt-time keepers will always get bitten, be it a corn, boa, viper or cobra. It's a learning process. So with a hot snake, surely it makes sense to learn on something that isn't going to kill you or leave you very severely disabled - gain the confidence and experience on something like that first, before tackling a potentially fatal taxon.
> Everyone has gotten complacent in their early days of keeping, be they venomous or not. And if anyone says otherwise, they are bloody lying.


 Yes, i said i don't think there is a problem with owning a Gaboon as a first hot snake, but it's obvious that someone who wants to keep said species will have prior experience handling that snake. Like i said husbandry wise it's not a problem, an idiot could keep a Gaboon alive. And like i also said and gave an example of, not everyone is in the same boat, some people have far more experience prior to actually owning their own first hots so it's not a clear cut statement that a Gaboon is a bad first venomous.

Very rarely does someone go into keeping venomous snakes with absolutely zero interaction with them. If that was the case, then obviously there are some snakes you would advise them against. 

First time keepers will always be bitten? That's news to me. Most of the bites that are well known in this country have been to people who have been keeping venomous for quite some time.

There is this stupid stigma attached to Copperheads and the like, "oh they won't kill you or harm you" - they have killed and will kill again. You don't know how you will react to the venom. Granted it is not as dangerous as a Gaboon, but all venomous snakes should be treated with the utmost respect!

I will stand by what i said, if you cannot respect a Gaboon viper enough to understand it's unpredictability then you do not deserve to keep any venomous snakes. Isn't the aim to not be bitten by whatever you keep? Regardless of how 'lethal' the venom is.


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## Logi72

djlu55 said:


> By the same measurement, being tagged by a gabby is going to leave you slightly worse off than say, a copperhead or a Pope's tree viper or whatever. Firsdt-time keepers will always get bitten, be it a corn, boa, viper or cobra. It's a learning process. So with a hot snake, surely it makes sense to learn on something that isn't going to kill you or leave you very severely disabled - gain the confidence and experience on something like that first, before tackling a potentially fatal taxon.
> Everyone has gotten complacent in their early days of keeping, be they venomous or not. And if anyone says otherwise, they are bloody lying.


Like someones mamba bite?:whistling2::lol2:


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## djlu55

Fair enough Crotalid, we can agree to disagree.

Few are the individuals who are fortunate to have wide, regular access to hots of various species to become confident enough to jump rigfht in and pick up something serious - but sure, it does happen and that's fine.

My major niggle with all this is basically giving someone who has zero hots experience or someone that has worked with a few but never owned the green light on something like a gab by saying 'if you can't look after and respect this, you shouldn't have any.' While I agree that a Copperhead should be accorded the very same respect as a mamba etc, the difference in outcome resulting from a bite is pretty obvious (I agree copperheads have killed, but in terms of survival rate, you're better off by far).
I've seen it happen where chaps have picked up a new species, started out with utmost diligence and, especially with a species that can be deceptive in it's disposition, get just a tiny bit complacent. Now I am not talking guys that suddenly start playing with the things like it's a corn, I mean a slight lapse in concentration, their mind elsewhere for a brief moment because theyve not yet made that slip-up on a less dangerous species....and well, it ends badly, doesn't it.

Moshpitviper said he has hand on heart never been bitten - I assume the same goes for you - and that is an example of a keeper who is 100% switched on all the time and then some, because you need to be. He said those that do are overestimating their abilites...if a keeper falls into this trap, I would like to think that if the unthinkable happens, it's from something a lot less serious than a gab because they were advised on here to start with a species of less danger. 

You cannot assume every single person will exercise the same care - in this instance the 'if you cant handle this ven, you shouldnt handle any' is a moot point - as a more experienced hot keeper, should the advice to anyone starting out with keeping their own day in and day out, generally regardless of experience level, be to begin with something less potentially fatal?


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## coldestblood

djlu55 said:


> I too, must agree with SD.
> 
> And I think, Crotalid, that you have now suddenly started backtracking with your last post. Initially you were saying you don't see the harm in owning a gabby as one's first hot snake, then only after (in your last post) add that it is with experience of venomous snakes.
> I think what SD and others were saying from the start is that a gabby as a first hot snake is bad news - by first hot snake, they mean first hot snake owned and/or cared for, assuming no previous experience.
> 
> You said 'On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has different capabilities. '
> 
> I think that there are, like non-venomous, snakes better suited to first-time keepers and some that are suited to keepers with more experience. Say, a corn smake from a retic, or tree python, or whatever. In addition to extra husbandry needs, there comes temperament. Now for a big python, that is more of a factor than a corn - being tagged by a 10-footer is no fun.
> 
> By the same measurement, being tagged by a gabby is going to leave you slightly worse off than say, a copperhead or a Pope's tree viper or whatever.* Firsdt-time keepers will always get bitten, be it a corn, boa, viper or cobra*. It's a learning process. So with a hot snake, surely it makes sense to learn on something that isn't going to kill you or leave you very severely disabled - gain the confidence and experience on something like that first, before tackling a potentially fatal taxon.
> Everyone has gotten complacent in their early days of keeping, be they venomous or not. And if anyone says otherwise, they are bloody lying.


If you truely believe that, then I'd suggest you stay well away from hots. 

It's important to understand a bite is possible, but expecting to be bitten is suicidal. If any new hot keeper expects to be bitten, then they're not ready to keep them. 

Yes, accidents happen, but thats life. No one expects to be crushed by a bus, but if you spend enough time around them, the probabilities increase. Doesn't mean _everyone_ will be crushed though. Just those who make a mistake, or lose concentration.


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## djlu55

coldestblood said:


> If you truely believe that, then I'd suggest you stay well away from hots.
> 
> It's important to understand a bite is possible, but expecting to be bitten is suicidal. If any new hot keeper expects to be bitten, then they're not ready to keep them.
> 
> Yes, accidents happen, but thats life. No one expects to be crushed by a bus, but if you spend enough time around them, the probabilities increase. Doesn't mean _everyone_ will be crushed though. Just those who make a mistake, or lose concentration.


 
Suggestion not needed, but thank you - I have no desire to keep any at all. Now or in the future. I had not stated a keeper should 'expect' to get bitten but rather that odds are high that at some point in one's snake-keeping experience, you will get tagged - be it a hatchling corn, boa or whatever. Those who have been tagged far outweigh those who have not. 
No, it doesn't mean everyone will get 'crushed.' My point is that, if that momentary lapse in concentration should occur, better it happen with something a great deal less likely to kill you. If that doesn't then impart a lesson for the keeper, it'd be best that individual no longer keep hots.


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## Crotalid

djlu55 said:


> *Those who have been tagged far outweigh those who have not. *


Does it? I know far more people that haven't been tagged, than have. 




djlu55 said:


> Fair enough Crotalid, we can agree to disagree.
> 
> Few are the individuals who are fortunate to have wide, regular access to hots of various species to become confident enough to jump rigfht in and pick up something serious - but sure, it does happen and that's fine.
> 
> My major niggle with all this is basically giving someone who has zero hots experience or someone that has worked with a few but never owned the green light on something like a gab by saying 'if you can't look after and respect this, you shouldn't have any.' While I agree that a Copperhead should be accorded the very same respect as a mamba etc, the difference in outcome resulting from a bite is pretty obvious (I agree copperheads have killed, but in terms of survival rate, you're better off by far).
> I've seen it happen where chaps have picked up a new species, started out with utmost diligence and, especially with a species that can be deceptive in it's disposition, get just a tiny bit complacent. Now I am not talking guys that suddenly start playing with the things like it's a corn, I mean a slight lapse in concentration, their mind elsewhere for a brief moment because theyve not yet made that slip-up on a less dangerous species....and well, it ends badly, doesn't it.
> 
> Moshpitviper said he has hand on heart never been bitten - I assume the same goes for you - and that is an example of a keeper who is 100% switched on all the time and then some, because you need to be. He said those that do are overestimating their abilites...if a keeper falls into this trap, I would like to think that if the unthinkable happens, it's from something a lot less serious than a gab because they were advised on here to start with a species of less danger.
> 
> You cannot assume every single person will exercise the same care - in this instance the 'if you cant handle this ven, you shouldnt handle any' is a moot point - as a more experienced hot keeper, should the advice to anyone starting out with keeping their own day in and day out, generally regardless of experience level, be to begin with something less potentially fatal?


I've said it before, that if someone has no experience with venomous then of course there are species they shouldn't deal with. Gaboons would come into that, i also said that if they have experience handling them and are confident handling them, there is no problem with them taking them on as a first hot. Obviously if they have that experience handling them, whoever is teaching them will be able to gauge whether they are ready or not.

Yes, you're 'better off' taking a bite from a Copperhead, but you cannot bank on that and become complacent. To me (might be just my opinion), it doesn't matter how 'deadly' the snake is - they all get treated with the same amount of caution, which is a lot! 

I didn't say, "if you can't handle this venomous, then you shouldn't handle any". I pretty much said if you cant respect or stop yourself becoming complacent around a Gaboon just because they don't flip out every two seconds you shouldn't be working with other venomous. 

Well isn't everything based on experience? I think it's a case by case situation what somebody should start out with. Look back at my previous example of friends i have, they aren't on the same page as someone who has only dealt with an Adder.


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## coldestblood

djlu55 said:


> Suggestion not needed, but thank you - I have no desire to keep any at all. Now or in the future. I had not stated a keeper should 'expect' to get bitten but rather that odds are high that at some point in one's snake-keeping experience, you will get tagged - be it a hatchling corn, boa or whatever. Those who have been tagged far outweigh those who have not.
> No, it doesn't mean everyone will get 'crushed.' My point is that, if that momentary lapse in concentration should occur, better it happen with something a great deal less likely to kill you. If that doesn't then impart a lesson for the keeper, it'd be best that individual no longer keep hots.


Being bitten by a corn or boa is no compaparison to being bitten by a hot. I breed lots of corns, and I get tagged all the time by the hatchlings. Thats not because of complacency, it's because I know nothing will come from it. It's not even a pin prick. 

When the snake is venomous (or large enough to cause damage), I don't put myself into a position were I may egt bitten. Obviously this is not always possible, as even venomous snakes will need to be 'handled' at some point - vets, health checks, sexing, medication, ect ect. It's just a matter of planning, using the correct tools, and being in the right mind.


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## DragonHelm

I had four baby gabs once, and it was like having four little cute Atom bombs. Kept in boxes. Not a starter.


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## ViperLover

DragonHelm said:


> I had four baby gabs once, and it was like having four little cute Atom bombs. Kept in boxes. Not a starter.


Gabs scare the life out of me, and it takes a lot for venomous snakes to do that, but they manage it!

I'd rather deal with a big cobra, at least you know where you stand from the very start.


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## ViperLover

djlu55 said:


> I too, must agree with SD.
> 
> And I think, Crotalid, that you have now suddenly started backtracking with your last post. Initially you were saying you don't see the harm in owning a gabby as one's first hot snake, then only after (in your last post) add that it is with experience of venomous snakes.
> I think what SD and others were saying from the start is that a gabby as a first hot snake is bad news - by first hot snake, they mean first hot snake owned and/or cared for, assuming no previous experience.
> 
> You said 'On the whole there is no particularly bad 'first hot', each individual is different and has different capabilities. '
> 
> I think that there are, like non-venomous, snakes better suited to first-time keepers and some that are suited to keepers with more experience. Say, a corn smake from a retic, or tree python, or whatever. In addition to extra husbandry needs, there comes temperament. Now for a big python, that is more of a factor than a corn - being tagged by a 10-footer is no fun.
> 
> *By the same measurement, being tagged by a gabby is going to leave you slightly worse off than say, a copperhead or a Pope's tree viper or whatever. *Firsdt-time keepers will always get bitten, be it a corn, boa, viper or cobra. It's a learning process. So with a hot snake, surely it makes sense to learn on something that isn't going to kill you or leave you very severely disabled - gain the confidence and experience on something like that first, before tackling a potentially fatal taxon.
> Everyone has gotten complacent in their early days of keeping, be they venomous or not. And if anyone says otherwise, they are bloody lying.


No, being bitten by a Gaboon is going to leave you a lot worse off than being bitten by some other species.....
I'm not sure most quite understand how serious Gaboons are? Their venom is loaded with cardiotoxins, and they have a vast quantity of it. Surely now it shouldn't be too difficult to understand that a bite, even by a small one, is a medical emergency that, even after half of a litre of antivenom, may not be survivable? Heart attacks are not unheard of shortly after Gaboon envenoming, and heart attacks kill a lot of people each year. The cardiotoxins are the cause of this, and the victim will have not just one heart attack, but they are likely to have several within a short time period.

Think......


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## Basin79

But is there an actual snake that could help you before buying a gaboon? Lead still, has it even noticed you? Is it even alive? BOOM!!!!!! SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT. Lightening strike, 2 inch fangs into you and and off you pop to hospital if you're lucky.


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## ViperLover

Basin79 said:


> But is there an actual snake that could help you before buying a gaboon?


No, there isn't. The only thing that will prepare you for the physical demands of lifting a heavy bodied snake on two hooks is a blood python. However, they do not behave like a Gaboon. So, other than the physical side of lifting them, they aren't really that great at all.

Out of the species I've got experience with so far, I'd list Gaboons as the most dangerous by a long way. Simply because they are unpredictable, and when they strike, they bite whatever they were aiming for. You can't get away from them quickly enough.


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## Basin79

ViperLover said:


> No, there isn't. The only thing that will prepare you for the physical demands of lifting a heavy bodied snake on two hooks is a blood python. However, they do not behave like a Gaboon. So, other than the physical side of lifting them, they aren't really that great at all.
> 
> Out of the species I've got experience with so far, I'd list Gaboons as the most dangerous by a long way. Simply because they are unpredictable, and when they strike, they bite whatever they were aiming for. You can't get away from them quickly enough.



I'd still love one. They're perfect.


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