# Mixed fish and amphibian tank?



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

I was wondering if anyone can suggest some amphibians that would be suitable for a mixed fish/amphibian tank. I'm interested in hearing about both aquatic and terrestrial species that are preferably colourful, reasonably easy to maintain and non-toxic (i.e. no poisonous tree frogs!). They would be for a display tank rather than for handleable pets. Any suggestions ? I'm thinking maybe some newts, salamanders or axolotls? Any specific species suggestions?

Edit: I forgot to say it will be a tropical tank.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Newts and Sals will probably go for smaller fish. Axolotls definitely will!

Fire bellied toads give off toxins.

Vietnamese mossy frogs may be suited, but they're relatively large and may eat the fish aswell.

Your options are pretty limited IMO. You could have dart frogs (not poisonous in captivity) and give them a large land area. They're supposedly not great swimmers but I've watched some of mine shoot through the water as fast as any fish.


----------



## berksmike (Jan 2, 2008)

Id say your choices are limited but you could try african dwarf frogs (_Hymenochirus _sp.) but you would be restricted in terms of fish species as you wouldnt want large species that could nip, harrass or eat them. Also you would have to make sure the fish werent getting all the food although you can use a turkey baster to place the food directly in front of them.

Most newts and salamanders wouldnt deal with the temperature in a tropical tank.
I believe Alan Cann did keep some aquatic cecelians with some fish but you dont tend to see them that often.

edit: heres link http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.cann/Tnatans.html


----------



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Newts and Sals will probably go for smaller fish. Axolotls definitely will!
> 
> Fire bellied toads give off toxins.
> 
> ...


Would newts/axolotls/salamanders work with larger fish? The idea is for a south american/amazonian tank but the specific fish species haven't been picked. Amazonian/south american amphibian species would be a good combination if you can suggest any specific species . 

As for the frogs would any species of dart frog be ok or should I be looking at specific species? There will be a land area as well as a water area. Would salamanders/newts/axolotls be compatible with dart frogs? Again I'd be looking at South American species.


----------



## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

intravenous said:


> Would newts/axolotls/salamanders work with larger fish? The idea is for a south american/amazonian tank but the specific fish species haven't been picked. Amazonian/south american amphibian species would be a good combination if you can suggest any specific species .
> 
> As for the frogs would any species of dart frog be ok or should I be looking at specific species? There will be a land area as well as a water area. Would salamanders/newts/axolotls be compatible with dart frogs? Again I'd be looking at South American species.


to be honest you would be looking at 1 species of amphibian and fish not newts salamanders axottles and darts any more than 1 you would be asking for trouble 

check out onemanandhisfrogs build he had darts with a few small tropical fish


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

cant offer much help, though id be really interested in some pics if you can make it work somehow : victory: one thing though: if you want it tropical forget the axolotl, they like it cold :2thumb:


----------



## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

intravenous said:


> Would salamanders/newts/axolotls be compatible with dart frogs? Again I'd be looking at South American species.


You don't really find Salamanders/newts in rainforests so A complete re-think is in order I'm afraid. As for mixing it's a definite no.


----------



## JurassicParking (Nov 20, 2010)

Ive seen a tank that had salamanders and a fighting fish in it. the wtaer area was fairly shallow however


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

JurassicParking said:


> Ive seen a tank that had salamanders and a fighting fish in it. the wtaer area was fairly shallow however


I'm a fish lover and I'm also going to tell you, even if you find a frog species that can live in that enivornment, it's going to be even harder to find a fish suitable. In mixed tanks the fishes care is often over looked and I really wouldn't recommend it at all. Also the 'pond' section will probably be very small, rubbish filtration and the fish will suffer, so I'd say don't do it. I've seen some people keeping Neon Tetras in ponds that are about 5litres or less, its cruel and shouldn't be done.

If you have dart frogs for example, you could try large snails and shrimp for small water areas.:2thumb:


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

_jake_ said:


> I'm a fish lover and I'm also going to tell you, even if you find a frog species that can live in that enivornment, it's going to be even harder to find a fish suitable. In mixed tanks the fishes care is often over looked and I really wouldn't recommend it at all. Also the 'pond' section will probably be very small, rubbish filtration and the fish will suffer, so I'd say don't do it. I've seen some people keeping Neon Tetras in ponds that are about 5litres or less, its cruel and shouldn't be done.
> 
> If you have dart frogs for example, you could try large snails and shrimp for small water areas.:2thumb:


Jake is spot on there, but I'd leave snails wout, they produce a LOT of waste as they are quite greedy feeders. Freshwater shrimp however make good companions for dart frogs, produce very little waste (an air driven sponge filter is plenty for a group of say 10) and can live in quite small bodies of water (even there though, 5 litres is way too small, you'd need a BIG tank to make it work, with about at least 15 litres water area and a VERY big land area). They're zero threat to darts as well. However one thing you need to be aware of is they are NOT easy to keep. They have zero tolerance for any ammonia, and need a mature environement (to allow biofilm to build up, which makes up a part of the diet of adults but especially baby shrimp). You would for example need to get any dead ffs out of the water immediately, and keep their water separate from any drain water from the land part, as ammonia is super toxic to them (guess what frog urine breaks down into....). Also, contrary to popular belief, few freshwater shrimp are truly tropical, and fair poorly above 24 degrees Celsius. Those that do would for the most part be a risk to any amphibians you put in there, having large claws and been quite predatory.

There are a couple of species of fish that can live in tiny water areas, as in a couple of the smallest bororas species. However these are even more difficult to keep, needing very very soft, clean water with a pH around 6.0. In the wild they are basically found in puddles. As I said though, they're considered really difficult to keep.

Whe you do see folks succeeding with palludariums, you'll find that they have used big to huge/gigantic tanks, as in starting at about 75 gallons, which may be bigger than you think. That's 340 litres, which would mean you'd be looking at a tank about 150cms long, 50cms wide and 50cms deep.  The absolute best I have seen actually took up most of a room.... :lol2:

So if you are thinking of doing this, forget about using an Exo Terra. :lol2:

You could do what I did with one of my tanks though, and just convert it into a lovely planted vivarium, and get some goregous dart frogs. 

Ade


----------



## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

I have giant rock newts with my tropical fish & I have had fire bellied newts in the past in with them also.. (guppies, fighters, neon tetras, shrimp, endlers & mollies). As long as you have places they can climb out of the water it's fine , I have a floating plant, floating cork/wood thing, filter out the water & a huge plant at the back that is half in the water, half out. 
I have axolotls too but unfortunately they are strictly cold water, which also has to be dechlorinated (I use bottled water).
Hope this helps!


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

geckocrazy14 said:


> I have giant rock newts with my tropical fish & I have had fire bellied newts in the past in with them also.. (guppies, fighters, neon tetras, shrimp, endlers & mollies). As long as you have places they can climb out of the water it's fine , I have a floating plant, floating cork/wood thing, filter out the water & a huge plant at the back that is half in the water, half out.
> I have axolotls too but unfortunately they are strictly cold water, which also has to be dechlorinated (I use bottled water).
> Hope this helps!


I don't know anything about the Giant rock newts but how long did your fish with the FBNs last? If they're anything like fire bellied toads they'd release toxins which will kill the fish. Also not just Axolotls require dechlorinated water, all fish do. :no1:


----------



## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

I rehomed the fire bellied newts to my friend because one managed to escape (my cat almost had it, was fine though, I found him in time). They didn't seem to affect my fish while I had them, although I would of thought the same thing!! 
Fish need reduced chlorine, axolotls need none whatsoever, I have to use aquasafe with my fish, but that wouldn't work with axolotls because it doesn't rid everything, they specifically need bottled water or a dechlorinating kettle.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

geckocrazy14 said:


> I rehomed the fire bellied newts to my friend because one managed to escape (my cat almost had it, was fine though, I found him in time). They didn't seem to affect my fish while I had them, although I would of thought the same thing!!
> Fish need reduced chlorine, axolotls need none whatsoever, I have to use aquasafe with my fish, but that wouldn't work with axolotls because it doesn't rid everything, they specifically need bottled water or a dechlorinating kettle.


Not sure who told you that fish only need reduced chlorine there bud, whoever it was doesn't know much about fish. Chlorine in even small amounts will burn their gills. Ok some fish are hardier and can survive this (eg. goldfish), but it's still not pleasant for them. Other fish can't even tolerate a trace of chlorine. Aquasafe does remove all chlorine, however it doesn't remove all of the heavy metals etc present in tap water, which will be why you have had problem with it possibly, or more likely it's the extras that they put in there. You can however use dechlorinators for axolotls, I have done so myself in the past, I used API Stresscoat+ for years for an axy with no problems. In fact, in many respects axolotls are hardier than many tropical fish.:lol2:

Ade


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> Not sure who told you that fish only need reduced chlorine there bud, whoever it was doesn't know much about fish. Chlorine in even small amounts will burn their gills. Ok some fish are hardier and can survive this (eg. goldfish), but it's still not pleasant for them. Other fish can't even tolerate a trace of chlorine. Aquasafe does remove all chlorine, however it doesn't remove all of the heavy metals etc present in tap water, which will be why you have had problem with it possibly, or more likely it's the extras that they put in there. You can however use dechlorinators for axolotls, I have done so myself in the past, I used API Stresscoat+ for years for an axy with no problems. In fact, in many respects axolotls are hardier than many tropical fish.:lol2:
> 
> Ade


This man knows his stuff, I'd listen up geckocrazy14 : victory:

Annoys me how some people completely ignore the care of the fish in vivariums!!:devil:


----------



## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

It annoys me how people involve themselves where they are unwanted. Another pop up on Rfuk.. What's new??
FYI, I was about to thank him before you 'appeared', for his useful information.

Thank you Ade, I have never tried aquasafe with my axies, but if your saying it works, I wish I did, would of saved me £100 spent on bottled water!! Lol..


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

geckocrazy14 said:


> It annoys me how people involve themselves where they are unwanted. Another pop up on Rfuk.. What's new??
> FYI, I was about to thank him before you 'appeared', for his useful information.
> 
> Thank you Ade, I have never tried aquasafe with my axies, but if your saying it works, I wish I did, would of saved me £100 spent on bottled water!! Lol..


This is an open forum, you posted in the advice section, what do you want me to do? It's advice and my opinion, how the hell you think I'm having a 'dig' at you is absurd. 

I believe I know a good deal about fish so feel I can offer advice, I've worked in Marine Specialist Aquariums, various work experience in the area and a animal care qualification. 

You're not special enough for me to want to annoy you, and no this isn't a typical RFUK heated argument, if you don't want advice dont come here.


----------



## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

I would be grateful if you gave me advice jake. But you didn't. You insulted me.. And said it annoys you how some people completely ignore the care of fish in vivariums. Which there was no need for, because clearly I don't. My fish are alive, happy and healthy. 
I didn't come on this forum for advice, I came to give it. And I never once stated you didn't know anything about fish.
I also never said it was a typical Rfuk argument, it just seems that on this forum people feel the need to constantly bring people down if they don't know as much as them, which to me is highly arrogant and not to mention unnecessary.
Now it's a typical Rfuk argument.


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

_jake_ said:


> I don't know anything about the Giant rock newts but how long did your fish with the FBNs last? If they're anything like fire bellied toads they'd release toxins which will kill the fish. Also not just Axolotls require dechlorinated water, all fish do. :no1:


Some advice I gave you. ^



_jake_ said:


> This man knows his stuff, I'd listen up geckocrazy14 : victory:


More advice, stating that Ade is a intelligent man and knows fish.



_jake_ said:


> Annoys me how some people completely ignore the care of the fish in vivariums!!:devil:


My opinion, doesn't mention you does it?



geckocrazy14 said:


> I would be grateful if you gave me advice jake. But you didn't. You insulted me.. And said it annoys you how some people completely ignore the care of fish in vivariums. Which there was no need for, because clearly I don't. My fish are alive, happy and healthy.
> I didn't come on this forum for advice, I came to give it. And I never once stated you didn't know anything about fish.
> I also never said it was a typical Rfuk argument, it just seems that on this forum people feel the need to constantly bring people down if they don't know as much as them, which to me is highly arrogant and not to mention unnecessary.
> Now it's a typical Rfuk argument.


My replies above, I fail to see how i've insulted yourself. 
Clearly your fish may look happy and healthy, but from your description of how they were kept, obviously they could be in a better environment.

I've been a member on this forum for 2/3years now and am on amphibians and especially Off Topic Banter and all of the regulars on there could tell you i'm not one for arguing, just trying to give you advice. I'm sorry if you think i'm insulting you but that wasn't my intentions.


----------



## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

geckocrazy14 said:


> I would be grateful if you gave me advice jake. But you didn't. You insulted me.. And said it annoys you how some people completely ignore the care of fish in vivariums. Which there was no need for, because clearly I don't. My fish are alive, happy and healthy.
> I didn't come on this forum for advice, I came to give it. And I never once stated you didn't know anything about fish.
> I also never said it was a typical Rfuk argument, it just seems that on this forum people feel the need to constantly bring people down if they don't know as much as them, which to me is highly arrogant and not to mention unnecessary.
> Now it's a typical Rfuk argument.


it was said it in general not at you chill the amphibian section is not like any other part of reptile forum uk this is a very knowledgeable bunch who want whats best for the animals not to bring people down but if something is being done wrong we are not people to stay quiet


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

sambridge15 said:


> it was said it in general not at you chill the amphibian section is not like any other part of reptile forum uk this is a very knowledgeable bunch who want whats best for the animals not to bring people down but if something is being done wrong we are not people to stay quiet


See! Cheers Sam.


----------



## geckocrazy14 (Mar 10, 2011)

Exactly my point. Another pop up for NO REASON! because Jake has already told me what's what! But another one just CAN'T stay out of it can they?? I didn't even have chance to read what Jake said before Sambridge started. I'm not even going to carry on because the both of you are being pathetic. 
And FYI my fish couldn't be looked after better? I don't even know where you got that from because I haven't done ANYTHING wrong with them.
I'm out.


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

geckocrazy14 said:


> Exactly my point. Another pop up for NO REASON! because Jake has already told me what's what! But another one just CAN'T stay out of it can they?? I didn't even have chance to read what Jake said before Sambridge started. I'm not even going to carry on because the both of you are being pathetic.
> And FYI my fish couldn't be looked after better? I don't even know where you got that from because I haven't done ANYTHING wrong with them.
> I'm out.


Well I'm sorry if that's how you feel, but reading through your past posts I've seen a couple of arguments you've been involved in, so I'm going to give more advice, jeepers advice on a forum:gasp:, and actually READ peoples posts before you reply. 

This forum, especially this section, we try to promote healthly keeping of animals for their benefit and yours. All any of us have done is try to help you, but you've just been getting in a little strop because we aren't agreeing with you. 

Here's a website explaining what a forum actually is:

Internet forum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How to behave appropiatley on one:

How To Behave On An Internet Forum (Internet: Useful Tips)


----------



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

On-topic please :whistling2:.

So axolotls are a no-go because they are cold-water, fair dos.

Also it seems there just aren't really any South American newts or salamanders :| (other than in Mexico which obviously isn't a rain forest!)? There must be some species out there but I guess they are just not commonly known about or available, so fair enough.

That leaves frogs and I don't see why you couldn't have a mixed frog/fish tank as they both share the same environment in South America. It is just a case of knowing which species would be suitable... they would need to be colourful and non-toxic and preferably not ridiculous to maintain! The fish in the tank would likely be a mix of cichlids.

Btw. the tank is going to be custom built with different levels so worries about a shallow water pool are not relevant.


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

It's possible, if the tank is big enough, and it has suitably large water and land areas. Most newts and salamanders need cooler temperatures (discounting the Central American ones, which aren't commonly available), so frogs are really the only option. Check out the thread on Onemanandhisfrogs tank, which shows one way it can be done.

@Geckocrazy: Chill, mate, we do friendly advice on this section; even when we disagree, we do it politely, and Jake is actually pretty knowledgeable.


----------



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Ron Magpie said:


> It's possible, if the tank is big enough, and it has suitably large water and land areas. Most newts and salamanders need cooler temperatures (discounting the Central American ones, which aren't commonly available), so frogs are really the only option. Check out the thread on Onemanandhisfrogs tank, which shows one way it can be done.
> 
> @Geckocrazy: Chill, mate, we do friendly advice on this section; even when we disagree, we do it politely, and Jake is actually pretty knowledgeable.


Thanks :smile:. The tank will be big. The current tank they have (I'm researching on behalf of someone else) is a 8ft x 2ft x2ft cichlid tank! They are having a custom built tank of similar proportions which will have both land and water areas. That's the general idea I got (regarding newts/salamanders and cooler temperatures :sad. Ah well, there's nothing wrong with frogs!


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> It's possible, if the tank is big enough, and it has suitably large water and land areas. Most newts and salamanders need cooler temperatures (discounting the Central American ones, which aren't commonly available), so frogs are really the only option. Check out the thread on Onemanandhisfrogs tank, which shows one way it can be done.
> 
> @Geckocrazy: Chill, mate, we do friendly advice on this section; even when we disagree, we do it politely, and *Jake is actually pretty knowledgeable*.


You sound suprised:whistling2::lol2:


----------



## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

_jake_ said:


> You sound suprised:whistling2::lol2:


Not really, Oh Flakey One!:lol2:


----------



## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> Not really, Oh Flakey One!:lol2:


I have just eaten a flake:gasp:

*slowly backs away from computer*


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I'd seriously leave cichlids out of a palludarium, and keep them in their own tanks. They're not really suited bo been kept in smaller bodies of water, and would be stressed when spawning by the persence of any frogs that could be safely kept with such large bodies of water. You'd probably be best sticking with the smaller characins, neons, black neons and similar. As you say, these do indeed come from the same habitat as most South Amercian frogs. You could possibly (possibly) combine these with some Amazon glass shrimp, given that you plant the water area well so that the shrimp don't get stressed by the fast moving tetras.

For frogs, I'd definitely say that some form of poison dart frog could work. Folks have succeeded in keeping leucomelas in vivs with deep water and fish, and there are also the rocket frogs for who water is actually pretty much required. I'd probably avoid the tinctorius, as apart from anything else although lovely frogs you will probably want more than a pair or trio, and they do poorly in groups. Ameerega bassieri I believe are also found living near water in the wild, but I doubt they would like the temperatures been quite so high.

Whatever you chose, the same advice applies as always, Research their needs thorougly, making use of the fish forums, shrimp forums, dart frog forums etc as appropriate. You already know how to filter the water area I am sure, and know about the need for water changes etc, so I wont try to teach you to suck eggs on these. 

Palludariums can looke absolutely stunning when done right. You can even use the return from an external filter to run a water feature, with water channeled down your background then along a 'stream' through the land area before entering the water area. Line the stream with small pebbles/large gravel and bingo you've also made a wet and try type filter. 

Ade


----------



## kroot (Mar 11, 2010)

Pretty well agree with most of what Ade stated here.

I wouldn't trust a chiclid as far as I could spit it in a tank with frogs.

Some of the smaller raspora may work?

Ade, would any of the shrimp present a major problem to tads?

EG. Cherry shrimp? I've got 40-60 breeding at work so have been tempted.:blush:.


----------



## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Tads would probably eat cherry shrimp, if they could fit them in their mouths. Glass shrimp would probably be ok, as they don't usually go for fish unless they are sick. Stay well away from macrobrachium shrimp, they are nice but predatory. lol To be honest though, I wouldn't leave tads in the water area anyway. The other problem with cherry shrimp is, they don't really like high temps, 24-26 is about as high as I found they like. Over this and yes they still breed etc, but they live for a significantly shorter time.

Smaller rasbora are nice, and fit in nicely, but most are touchy about the water they are in. Neons and black neons are a lot more forgiving.


----------



## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

there is a build guide on dendroboard with fresh water rays that was a stunning build!allthough that was a several 100 gallon vivarium....


----------



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> there is a build guide on dendroboard with fresh water rays that was a stunning build!allthough that was a several 100 gallon vivarium....


The converted marine tank? He was making 300gallon a day water changes so a bit more than several hundred!


----------



## JurassicParking (Nov 20, 2010)

_jake_ said:


> I'm a fish lover and I'm also going to tell you, even if you find a frog species that can live in that enivornment, it's going to be even harder to find a fish suitable. In mixed tanks the fishes care is often over looked and I really wouldn't recommend it at all. Also the 'pond' section will probably be very small, rubbish filtration and the fish will suffer, so I'd say don't do it. I've seen some people keeping Neon Tetras in ponds that are about 5litres or less, its cruel and shouldn't be done.
> 
> If you have dart frogs for example, you could try large snails and shrimp for small water areas.:2thumb:


The pump system for the actual tank was doing its job fairly well to be honest. Couldn't give you the exact name and size of pump etc as it was a fleeting view. I will agree the water area wasn't large enough for the fish, but as you've said the amphibians care was considered more - and it seems that that was catered to more.


----------

