# opinions on this please!



## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

ok , im after some opinions here...
in theory i rescue a snake .... free
i dont really want to keep said snake so i offer it for sale...
Is it ok to ask full market value or should you ask for a rehoming fee or donation to recue centre etc?


This is just to see how people stand morally!!


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## jamie_coxon (Jul 18, 2007)

personally id just ask for the amount its coting you to house it ie food, electric and equipment


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i woudl ask for a donation to cover your costs..


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

interesting so far


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## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

A lot of people would come down pretty hard on you for trying to profit from rescues by selling them at market value. It's generally frowned upon.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

If I get a snake for free I pass it on for free. Selling rescues for profit is wrong in my book


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Yeah thats what i thought , others selling on the classifieds dont feel the same tho!


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

rachy said:


> Yeah thats what i thought , others selling on the classifieds dont feel the same tho!


That may be very true, but at least your conscience will be clear: victory:
In my opinion, you got it for nothing, you should rehome it for nothing. To be honest i don`t think it even fair to charge for food/electric etc as you took the choice to home the snake knowing what it would cost you.:smile:

Selling for full market price would just be wrong, just as many dealers posing as "rescues" on the classifieds do.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Nope some people are just out for money pure and simple. I've seen people "rescue" and then stick snakes in classified's straight away


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2007)

Onissarle said:


> A lot of people would come down pretty hard on you for trying to profit from rescues by selling them at market value. It's generally frowned upon.


 
Ditto and if you didnt want it why except it ???? :bash:


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

nah in this case they waited a month!
I think its wrong.


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

SteveL said:


> Ditto and if you didnt want it why except it ???? :bash:


 
Its not me by the way.........someone on the forum but certainly not me!


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

SteveL said:


> Ditto and if you didnt want it why except it ???? :bash:


Some places are genuine rescues which take in everthing and try to rehome. I see it ok to ask for a donation towards a genuine rescue centre but not for a private individual.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2007)

rachy said:


> Its not me by the way.........someone on the forum but certainly not me!


#

good i have just given snakes away to the value of £300 because they were not needed and were going to loving homes rather than sell them 

so to rehome then sell is out of order IMO


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Yup but i got told , why give it away when i can get x amount of £££sss!


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2007)

rachy said:


> Yup but i got told , why give it away when i can get x amount of £££sss!


 
so it is in your care then ????!!!???


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Some people have no scruples ive found.

Oh im willing to rehome and royal python morphs and promise not to sell them on.


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

no thees an ad on classifieds , i remembered the thread saying the guy had rescued this snake and lots of others , i enquired how much it was for sale for!


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *rachy* 
_hiya , how much are you after for the ?
Rachy_

ive got someone interested over £160

Originally Posted by *rachy* 
_wasnt he a rescue tho?
I thought it would be a rehoming fee ._

yeah he is and it was a rehoming fee
but ive had him advetised at my local for a while
and upto now ive been offered £160 i couldnt get to the shop as ive hurt my knee so i couldnt check up on it to sell him but i saw him yesterday my mates just been telling people the highest offer and people have out offered it hes had loads of interest
an i aint gonna out pockett myself if people are willing to pay alot more knowing its a rehome

Originally Posted by *rachy* 
_yeah but you dont state on the ad its a rescue you are selling , imo you should state that .
your not gonna be out of pocket he cost you nothing lol_
i didnt mean it that way
what i ment was why should i accept a small rehoming fee when ive been offered £160 by someone who knows its a rehome but realy wants it

and the ad says any more info pm me
and i tell them on pm
rather than starting a huge argument on the thread over the price


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2007)

somthing dont sound right here to me 

im out of this thread


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

SteveL said:


> somthing dont sound right here to me
> 
> im out of this thread


You agree with me tho which is what i wanted to hear , i hope said person reads this n wakes up n smells the coffee!


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

very dodgy
Who is it?


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Tops said:


> very dodgy
> Who is it?


Pm'd ya!


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Its fine you just know not to trust them
It was obvious what he was like from his 'WOW LOOK WHAT I JUST GOT!!' post.


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## amanda75 (May 23, 2006)

I don't agree with asking for market value but can see that if you need the money and it's being offered it would be hard to pass it up...

Selling it on after only a month seems just as or even more wrong to me - it's not long enough to know that the snake is fit and healthy, particularly as 'rescue' rather implies that it was improperly housed before that.


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Is it this one by any chance?
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snake-classifieds/56917-rare-high-orange-brazilian-rainbow.html


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

£160 is a good price for one of those. I would snap their hands off i have seen BRB babies going for half that these days! if he took the snake on its surely up to him what he does with it? unless he took it on from someone saying he was going to keep it himself etc etc.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2007)

Andy said:


> £160 is a good price for one of those. I would snap their hands off i have seen BRB babies going for half that these days! if he took the snake on its surely up to him what he does with it? unless he took it on from someone saying he was going to keep it himself etc etc.


 
hes offered it a rehome then hes selling it on thats not on !!!!!!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i'd have sold it. but then again, i'm an american capitalist pig! :lol2: (i'd have bought an emerald with the money)


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## mrsfluff (Jul 15, 2007)

HABU said:


> i'd have sold it. but then again, i'm an american capitalist pig! :lol2: (i'd have bought an emerald with the money)


 
At least you'd be honest about it Habu!! :Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:

Jo


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

only way to be. now, false pretences, that's another matter entirely.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

hmmm its a tricky one, because its often the case that these kind of arguments start when someone takes on a rehome with good intention and then things change... but in a month thats clearly not the case here. It would also be different if the rehome had needed vet treatment/specialist care and the person was just asking for a fraction of that cost to cover the bills (i suppose thats sort a rehoming fee though). once again though in this case if the snakes only been taken in for a month then the seller can't know its healthy and so thats another irresponsible issue.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

i think if you make a habbit of rehoming reps..or advertise as such then you shouldnt sell anything you get....merely rehome for freee or a reasonable amount dependant on expenses etc.

However... If its rescued..it clearly wasnt wanted/looked after.
so why not sell it to soemone who will pay a beloe retail but still considerable price fo rit and offer it a good home?

I think all info should be given to all involved parties.

I dont really see it as any different from the hugely varying rehoming fees that rescue centres seem to offer at.


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## K.J.Geckos (Sep 7, 2006)

i would sell it for full value,take a percentage out for your cost and give the rest to the place you got it from.


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## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

I don't see a problem selling on animals that you genuinely put time/money(ie vet bills) into to bring back to a normal healthy standard at a reasonable price...the word 'rescue' gets used a bit too loosely I think sometimes. Rescue usually implies, at least to me, that the animal has been mistreated in some way or some important piece of it's husbandry has been lacking, not just, the seller was looking to get rid of it quickly so it was cheep/free to A GOOD HOME. Dunno the circumstances, just some things I've seen in other situations.



rachy said:


> Quote:
> 
> yeah he is and it was a rehoming fee
> but ive had him advetised at my local for a while
> and upto now ive been offered £160 i couldnt get to the shop as ive hurt my knee so i couldnt check up on it to sell him but i saw him yesterday my mates just been telling people the highest offer and people have out offered it hes had loads of interest


er...so it was rehomed....to a pet shop?


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

See,i don`t see why the expenses should be covered really. You knew it would cost money to own, you didn`t want it, but offered it a home so you could sell it?
My normal corn i`m selling, she`s 3 years old, at what? Say £4 a month for food, heat etc? So, £144 to cover my expenses??? Thats just nuts!

If you don`t want it, the least you can do is give it back to the rescue you got it from and let them find a more suitable home for it.


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## lampropeltis (Jun 21, 2007)

lets just clear this up as you have all got the wrong end of the stick

i got an email from the woman who noticed my ad on pre-loved
the ad said cheap kings and milks wanted
she said it was because i was local
i initialy went for the pueblan as it fitted with my others
and i had the space for it and it was something i wanted
i got there to find the snakes vivs plastered in months and months of poo urine and old sheds
i couldnt leave them!! i didnt care about space or anything else i just wanted them sorted
so i took the lot
i did offer her money but she refused
she said they were her ex-husbands and she couldnt care for them
and she wanted rid asap
she said that as long as there happy in the end im free to do with them what i like
they were in that bad care that i took 7hours till gone 4 in the morning to clean and disinfect both the vivs and the snakes

i have since rehomed the burm to a friend of mine off here
at a low rehoming price and including £100's worth of food

the hoggie is on hold for someone who will hopefuly be rehoming it next month at a low price
i did have an offer from the shop but they had no empty vivs in the end

as for the brb
i asked my m8 to advertise it in my local as a rehomer
as i didnt realy wanna sell him it just kept the mrs quiet
and to just get what he can
i hadnt seen him for a while and i couldnt get to the shop as i have suvearly injured my knee and am awaiting surgery (thursday)
i saw him today and he said he'd just been telling people who are interested what the last person had offered and as he hadnt seen me we could seal a deal at the initail price
so in the end a local breeder had offered £160 (hence the price)

i normaly wouldnt dream of asking this much for a rehome
but as i had been offered this
i would be crazy to go lower
when the money can be spent on new vivs for the others
if my starting price was £160 then i could see your point
but it wasnt

as for me having no space and still wanting kings 
i have a empty rack waiting
its just too small for the other snakes

and anthony yes i did say id give you first refusal
but as i said i still didnt wanna sell him i did it to get some piece from my o.h.
and then i new you wouldnt pay the £160 that the breeder had offered

if this was all for profit then why is it only the 3rd snake ive ever sold/rehomed

i just think this was all blown well out of proportion
and now my reputation is destroyed
my name is tarnished and slated
when im realy being genuine and just wanted what was best for the snakes

ive said my piece now neway
and i hope that you all now understand what went on


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

Andy said:


> £160 is a good price for one of those. I would snap their hands off i have seen BRB babies going for half that these days! if he took the snake on its surely up to him what he does with it? unless he took it on from someone saying he was going to keep it himself etc etc.


bang on the money there. I personally think people on this occassion are just begrudging because it's a morph that would be worth more if from a private breeder or pet shop and they were hoping to grab a bargain. If someone had said picked up an animal from someone who wanted it rehoming and the person said they would keep it as they would love top have it and state they "want" to keep it and say they will give it a loving home but then sell it for triple more what it would cost to buy it from a private breeder anyway (there a couple thread spring to mind) that is wrong and dont agree with but to be fair the guy who took these snakes on never said to the women he would permanently home them himself and she did say she just wanted them to go to good homes which he is trying to do. There is a difference between the 2 scenarios.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

If you take an animal off someone as a favour, if they ask you to take it away, if they cannot look after it, if they do not ask you to give it to a good home but just say "take it, do what you want with it"

Then I see no reason not to sell it. I would sell it. Especially if I had a lot of work cleaning it up.. but I wouldn't sell it if it wasn't in perfect health obviously.

The negative thing is when people claim to be rescues and then take things with intention to make profit, or see ££ signs when they should be focusing on their "rescue". For a genuine rescue, it shouldn't matter if what has been handed in is worth £10 or £500... if it was handed in to a rescue, it's expected to be rescued & rehomed to the best home possible, not "sold on" to the highest bidder. 

So it depends on the context of "rescue", to be honest, reading what has been written, I do not think lampropeltis is a rescue. I think he is someone who is into reptiles and took some free snakes and is now selling them. The fact that they were free, does not mean that they were a rescue/rehome in the strict sense of the word. 

Some people may say this is taking advantage - but taking advantage of what? Just good luck I might be thinking to get a high value animal for free 

As long as there is no "con" involved, no lies, no pretence, if the person who gives the animal away just wants rid of it and doesn't care if it's going to a permanent home or not, then I see no problem with selling at a fair market price.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

completly agree with athraven on this one........ I get given lots of non feeders, if i gave them away when they were feeding I would not be able to afford to do what i do (i dont charge bording fees for the ones that come to stay and then go home) I throw away hundreds of refused pinks and it all costs money....... babys are sold, with all their feeding details so people know they were slow starters, and i dont ask full market value.
I also take older unwanted snakes and always make it clear that if the right 'forever' home came along they would be homed on, I dont set a donation , but again something just to help me survive and carry on doing what i love is great.

I was actually donated 3 beautiful hatchlings yesterday at Basildon, (thank you so much Sue) these will be sold and the money will go in to the 'pinkie fund' as this is what sue wants me to do with them


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

the way i see it is that if someone gives you something, it's yours with all that comes with ownership. if they are wanting you to find a home for it, then you are acting as a broker with no ownership rights unless YOU are the home for it. see, it can get a little blurry but as long as there is no deception, all parties benefit. who's hurt?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

I personally see no problems with rehoming for a profit, not sure why it annoys anyone, firstly the person getting rid of the animal in question doesn't want/cant have anymore, and if the buyer is happy with the price, who cares

The important thing is that the rehomer, gives the best possible care when they have it and sells to a suitable home, what matter does it make what money is involved, hell if the profit pushes some people to do this "service" for the hobby then who cares, al i care about is the animals being in the right hands, the rest is between a buyer and seller


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

sweet! im gonna start offering to 'rehome' and rescue animals then!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Tops said:


> sweet! im gonna start offering to 'rehome' and rescue animals then!


 
:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:, cant you see my point though? as long as the rehomer is responsible, what difference does money make?


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Fangio said:


> If I get a snake for free I pass it on for free. Selling rescues for profit is wrong in my book


Same with me and my rescue leos


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:, cant you see my point though? as long as the rehomer is responsible, what difference does money make?


Its the priciple though, i could go through the classifieds picking up all the "free to good home" animals, kittens, puppies, reps, you name it! and make a small fortune, but its dishonest and classed as dealing. Free to good home usually means just that. If the ad said "free to any dealers who want to make a quick buck" then fair enough. 

The advertiser should have stated in the original advert that this snake was a rehome, and not wait until asked. That way people know what they`re taking on.
I assume before this snake is "rehomed" it will have been wormed, treated for mites, quarantined etc as most "rescuers" would do in the first instance. IMO one month isn`t long enough to ensure all of that has been done.
If he wants to become a dealer/trader then he should advertise as one.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Theres also another reason for charging, some people take on rehomes that are more than they can handle/afford/house cause they are free/cheap, money does put a stop to some of that

Look on here, imagine if all the popular corn/leo morphs or whatever were free, i can guarantee that a certain percentage of the forum would take on more than they could deal with, purely cause of the addictive nature of herps

Its a sad human trait, in SOME people that they dont respect things unless they cost them money and get on a whimm, putting £60-£70 or whatever infront of them makes them re-evaluate


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Its the priciple though, i could go through the classifieds picking up all the "free to good home" animals, kittens, puppies, reps, you name it! and make a small fortune, but its dishonest and classed as dealing. Free to good home usually means just that. If the ad said "free to any dealers who want to make a quick buck" then fair enough.
> 
> The advertiser should have stated in the original advert that this snake was a rehome, and not wait until asked. That way people know what they`re taking on.
> I assume before this snake is "rehomed" it will have been wormed, treated for mites, quarantined etc as most "rescuers" would do in the first instance. IMO one month isn`t long enough to ensure all of that has been done.
> If he wants to become a dealer/trader then he should advertise as one.


No your missing the point, there is a difference between a dealer and a re-homer, the money is irrelavent to this, a decent rehomer, will quarantine, vet new owners, treat illnesses etc before sending on, if money is changed hands or not is irrelavent in this situation, your tainting everyone with the smae brush, just because you add money into the equation, it doesn't mean that you dont care about the animals also

Im for it personally, as long as the person doing it is responsible, beyond that is stupid to moan, even if a person does none of the quarantining or whatever and basically makes money as a go between, as long as the animal is treated well and with a good keeper at the end, the middle man shouldn't matter

Whats the difference between, someone collecting the free animal and rehoming it themselves, or someone collecting that animal finding a home and selling it too them? Its just a service someones providing, a middle man


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> Theres also another reason for charging, some people take on rehomes that are more than they can handle/afford/house cause they are free/cheap, money does put a stop to some of that
> 
> Look on here, imagine if all the popular corn/leo morphs or whatever were free, i can guarantee that a certain percentage of the forum would take on more than they could deal with, purely cause of the addictive nature of herps
> 
> Its a sad human trait, in SOME people that they dont respect things unless they cost them money and get on a whimm, putting £60-£70 or whatever infront of them makes them re-evaluate


 
Isn`t the seller a perfect example though? He didn`t want it but took it because it was free?
A rehome fee would be fine, but offers over £160 is hardly a rehome fee! If there is a fee then i think the money should be directly donated to a suitable charity, proving that this guy is not out to make a profit.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> No your missing the point, there is a difference between a dealer and a re-homer, the money is irrelavent to this, a decent rehomer, will quarantine, vet new owners, treat illnesses etc before sending on, if money is changed hands or not is irrelavent in this situation, your tainting everyone with the smae brush, just because you add money into the equation, it doesn't mean that you dont care about the animals also
> 
> Im for it personally, as long as the person doing it is responsible, beyond that is stupid to moan, even if a person does none of the quarantining or whatever and basically makes money as a go between, as long as the animal is treated well and with a good keeper at the end, the middle man shouldn't matter
> 
> Whats the difference between, someone collecting the free animal and rehoming it themselves, or someone collecting that animal finding a home and selling it too them? Its just a service someones providing, a middle man


And if it was a one off then ok, but it isn`t. IF the owner is taking on snakes posing as a rescue, please note the IF, as i certainly don`t get free snakes offered to me willynilly, who says that he isn`t advertising? Then its technically fraud. A decent rehomer would vet potential homes, treat illnesses, quarantine.......so the fact that this hasn`t been done and he accepted an offer from a pet shop, says that he`s not a "decent rehomer" therefore is a wannabe dealer.

Maybe i`d get rich quicker if i forgot about morals.

Anyone got any free animals they want to give to me??


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Isn`t the seller a perfect example though? He didn`t want it but took it because it was free?
> A rehome fee would be fine, but offers over £160 is hardly a rehome fee! If there is a fee then i think the money should be directly donated to a suitable charity, proving that this guy is not out to make a profit.


 
whats wrong with profit?

heres an example, say i was wanting to give an animal away, cause i didn't want it for whatever reason, and say you wanted that animal, if you collected it from me, you'd be happy right?, 

what if that same animal was collected a week before(for free)offered to you for £50(with you not knowing of the collection by the 3rd party) and you were happy with the price, both ways its got to a good home, your happy with your purchase, im happy its gone, and the 3rd party made a profit

Who cares that he made a profit as long as the animals gone to the right place, thats not guaranteed if its a free rehome or not

Also look at any reptile(or any animal) for sale anywhere, how many are from this exact process, no-one could tell


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> And if it was a one off then ok, but it isn`t. IF the owner is taking on snakes posing as a rescue, please note the IF, as i certainly don`t get free snakes offered to me willynilly, who says that he isn`t advertising? Then its technically fraud.
> 
> Maybe i`d get rich quicker if i forgot about morals.
> 
> Anyone got any free animals they want to give to me??


 
All im saying is welcome to the real world, all im interested in is the right animal going to the right responsible owner, whatever money changes hands is of little concern to me, thats a buyer/seller issue, not for others to get involved in:no1:

Also your talking rescue now, i was talking rehoming, i see rescues like sanctuarys where animals stay, rehomers are ones that usually move animals onto to new homes anyway, there is a massive difference between the two:no1:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

side by side, how can you tell the difference between rehomed and purchased animals? they ARE the same thing. if an unwanted critter lands in your lap, why not sell it? if someone gives you a ferrari, will you just give it to a driver that will take good care of it? didn't cost you anything, find it a good home. i think you'd be a fool to do that.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Thats the thing, you don`t know. How do you know that the money used in the sale hasn`t been stolen in a bank robbery. You don`t know, its just that some people are found out, and some are not.
My non feeding hatchlings are still with me, despite being offered free to suitable homes a few weeks ago, because non of the homes offered have been deemed suitable by myself. Maybe i should sell them to a pet shop as perfect snakes and make a bit of money?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

HABU said:


> side by side, how can you tell the difference between rehomed and purchased animals? they ARE the same thing. if an unwanted critter lands in your lap, why not sell it? if someone gives you a ferrari, will you just give it to a driver that will take good care of it? didn't cost you anything, find it a good home. i think you'd be a fool to do that.


 
exactly, how would anyone know what animals in a classified are rehomed or personal unwanted pets, as long as the animals looked after who cares

I know of someone on here who constantly looks for cheap animals to sell on for a profit, he buys peoples hatchlings and adults and doesn't keep them, whats the difference???:lol2:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

lampropeltis said:


> lets just clear this up as you have all got the wrong end of the stick
> 
> i got an email from the woman who noticed my ad on pre-loved
> the ad said cheap kings and milks wanted
> ...


As far as im concerned, yourv done nothing wrong mate, as wohic, athravan and others have said.



spirit975 said:


> Isn`t the seller a perfect example though? He didn`t want it but took it because it was free?
> A rehome fee would be fine, but offers over £160 is hardly a rehome fee! If there is a fee then i think the money should be directly donated to a suitable charity, proving that this guy is not out to make a profit.


as he said in his post, the lady said..take it please...do with as you will...
he took it cos it was unwanted and not looked after.
so he is a perfect example yes...of soemone who has done nothing wrong.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Thats the thing, you don`t know. How do you know that the money used in the sale hasn`t been stolen in a bank robbery. You don`t know, its just that some people are found out, and some are not.
> My non feeding hatchlings are still with me, despite being offered free to suitable homes a few weeks ago, because non of the homes offered have been deemed suitable by myself. Maybe i should sell them to a pet shop as perfect snakes and make a bit of money?


 
well thats where i see the dishoesty, selling an animal to someone for profit(wherever its from) is fair enough, but selling a sick or problem animal is a different kettle of fish, thats deception at the cost of the animals health


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## lampropeltis (Jun 21, 2007)

HABU said:


> side by side, how can you tell the difference between rehomed and purchased animals? they ARE the same thing. if an unwanted critter lands in your lap, why not sell it? if someone gives you a ferrari, will you just give it to a driver that will take good care of it? didn't cost you anything, find it a good home. i think you'd be a fool to do that.


 
my point exactly


the fact it was £160 was a rehome that was pushed up and up
due to the massive interest at my local

eg: the first bloke said £40
my m8 said ok il ask him when i see him
next bloke asks how much
my m8 said someones offered £40 but i havnt seen him yet to conferm ect
and he sez ok well tell him il give him £50
and so on and so on

so yes i agree with you all £160 is far to high and i didnt expect £60 let alone this but thats what ive been offered
its just it wasnt initialy advertised on here
purely because i didnt want him to go

did you know most of the antiques that are sold on ebay for £1000's
come from house clearences and the dump
they get cleaned up and sold on at full price
even though there free


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## jamie_coxon (Jul 18, 2007)

IMO the only thing you have done wrong was not being honest from the start of the advert. im sure if you had been more open about it, this would of avoided.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

gonna close this now, we all have differing opinions on this subject, but to be honest it is up to the seller what he wishes to do, he has explained himself, even though he did not have to, I think the thread needs to come to an end as it is turning in to a witch hunt


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