# Has anyone used a 'rodent reaper' and do you recommend it?



## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

Although I am pretty squeamish about killing my own food for my snakes I'm thinking that it may be more ethical as I can control the quality of life of the rodents. The 'Rodent Reaper' sounds like a a method that is humane and "hands off" (really don't think I can bring myself to do the 'pencil thing').
Can anyone give me any feedback on its use?
Thanks


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Why not use a Co2 chamber? It's easy, quick & very humane for the rats & mice. Is this reaper the one that kills them by electric shock? Don't like the sound of it if it is, Co2 is very humane, they go to sleep & you then turn the gas up a bit & within 20-30 seconds they are dead. Very humane :no1:.


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## mark1985 (Jun 9, 2010)

corny girl said:


> Why not use a Co2 chamber? It's easy, quick & very humane for the rats & mice. Is this reaper the one that kills them by electric shock? Don't like the sound of it if it is, Co2 is very humane, they go to sleep & you then turn the gas up a bit & within 20-30 seconds they are dead. Very humane :no1:.


 
I think thats what Hitler told the Nazi's when killing the Jews "The gas chamber is the most humane way to kill them" 
NOT MEANING TO CAUSE OFFENCE TO ANYONE AND APPOLIGIES IF OFFENCE IS CAUSED


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

corny girl said:


> Why not use a Co2 chamber? It's easy, quick & very humane for the rats & mice. Is this reaper the one that kills them by electric shock? Don't like the sound of it if it is, Co2 is very humane, they go to sleep & you then turn the gas up a bit & within 20-30 seconds they are dead. Very humane :no1:.


Oh god no! It's a type of CO2 chamber - but ready made, cause I'm pants at making things like that...


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

is that the one where bicarb and vinegar are mixed to create the CO2? I don't think they are as good as the ones where you use a canister of ready-made CO2. It wouldn't be possible to regulate the amount of gas with the vinegar method and mistakes could happen. If the oxygen is displaced by CO2 too quickly the rats will panic and if the gas runs out too soon they'll wake up :lol2:


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

garlicpickle said:


> is that the one where bicarb and vinegar are mixed to create the CO2? I don't think they are as good as the ones where you use a canister of ready-made CO2. It wouldn't be possible to regulate the amount of gas with the vinegar method and mistakes could happen. If the oxygen is displaced by CO2 too quickly the rats will panic and if the gas runs out too soon they'll wake up :lol2:


It is yes. OK that sounds bad... really do want to be as humane as possible - does anywhere sell a Co2 version. Basically I am :censor: at making stuff lik ethat and would rather just buy something ready made...


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## bbav (Oct 17, 2007)

Where are you?
I could make you one if you are close to me.


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

that's very sweet of you but I'm miles away (Hertfordshire)


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Search through this section as i posted up the Co2 chamber i made. All you need is a resonable size tub, some plastic tubing, Co2 bottle & a regulator. I bought the Co2 & regulator from Halfords (make sure it's the Co2 & not the Argon bottle). You connect the regulator to the bottle, the tubing goes on the regulator then you make a hole in the lid of the tub at one end & put the tubing in (make sure hole is just big enough for tubing to go in, you want a snug fit), make 2 holes on the opposite side in the lid of the tub, this will force the air out (Co2 is heavier than air so air will float to the top). Away you go :2thumb:.


EDIT: Found my thread for you.... http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/544392-co2-chamber.html


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## firebelliedfreak (Nov 3, 2008)

its a lot more humane to bash them on the head against a table than to gas them
just think about it would you rather suffocate to death or break your neck and cause instant death:devil:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

firebelliedfreak said:


> its a lot more humane to bash them on the head against a table than to gas them
> just think about it would you rather suffocate to death or break your neck and cause instant death:devil:


If they're suffocating to death you're doing it wrong.

CO2 done correctly is ANAESTHETIC first, which puts them to sleep before it puts them to sleep.

Would you rather feel a little swimmy, lose consciousness and die in your sleep, or have someone grab you, stick a hard thing at the back of your neck and yank on your back end... and NOT die?

It's not easy to do cervical dislocation - if you don't get it right, the rat WILL be left alive.


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> If they're suffocating to death you're doing it wrong.
> 
> CO2 done correctly is ANAESTHETIC first, which puts them to sleep before it puts them to sleep.
> 
> ...


This is my point I want them to be anaesthetised... I know I would be too nervous to break their neck and would therefore likely cause more suffering!
Thanks for the links, maybe I will try to make one - I'm really surprised that there isn't something on the market???


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## bbav (Oct 17, 2007)

jerboa said:


> This is my point I want them to be anaesthetised... I know I would be too nervous to break their neck and would therefore likely cause more suffering!
> Thanks for the links, maybe I will try to make one - I'm really surprised that there isn't something on the market???


 I'm surprised too but it's so easy to make your own that it really wouldn't pay to make them and sell on.
If you need any help feel free to PM me.


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## wheaty5 (Feb 3, 2008)

The way i like to think about is like when you go to the dentist. When they use the stuff to put you unconcious they use enough to do that but if they were to continue then you would die i would assume. You dont feel the pain of whatever the dentist is doing so same situation with the Co2 chamber they slip unconcious then pass away after more Co2 enters the chamber.


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

bbav said:


> I'm surprised too but it's so easy to make your own that it really wouldn't pay to make them and sell on.
> If you need any help feel free to PM me.


thank you


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## mouseman11 (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm pretty sure people die quite often when a faulty water boiler leaks CO2 in their home, which causes them to feel drowsey, they go to bed and die in their sleep.. if a human doesn't see it coming and doesn't feel pain, then I'm sure if done correctly, it's the best way for rodents too.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Faulty boilers leak carbon MONoxide which binds very efficiently with the haemoglobin in your blood and therefore doesn't allow oxygen to bind with it. So you asphyxiate in your sleep even in the presence of atmospheric oxygen.

Carbon DIoxide is a different gas. It asphyxiates the rodents but only in the absence of oxygen, which is forced out of the chamber by the carbon dioxide. The oxygen is lighter so it gets pushed up to the top by the carbon dioxide and out of the ventilation holes. 

Gassing your rodents by connecting them up to a car exhaust or faulty boiler would do the job but it might finish you off as well :lol2:


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## xdow (Mar 26, 2010)

I built a chamber using the guide on here not so long ago, but we ran it with a vinegar/bicarb mix in a ratio found online, which did work well. (you need a heck of a lot of vinegar though)

however the mice had a really bad smell of vinegar afterwards and two snakes refused to take them. 
one was a ball that never refuses mice, the other was a milk that was being finicky with feeds anyway. the only one we didn't try was with a cali, but all the mice were off before i could try one with her.

the second lot we washed afterwards, rolled around in the mices substrate (which was... absolutely rank with mousey smell) then washed them again. both the mice in this batch were wasted too.

so just something to be mindful of if anyone takes up the rodent reaper set up as i imagine they will end up a bit vinegary too...

we ended up taking the young live mice to the pet shop and swapping them for frozen just to get shot


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## Darryl Kensley (Oct 22, 2010)

Humane/Inhumane...

Its all subjective.

The end result is all the same folks. But if a quick painless death is what you want, then the best method is with dry ice. The 'solid' form of CO2.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> Humane/Inhumane...
> 
> Its all subjective.
> 
> The end result is all the same folks. But if a quick painless death is what you want, then the best method is with dry ice. The 'solid' form of CO2.


How would it be better than a CO2 canister and regulator?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## Darryl Kensley (Oct 22, 2010)

Well its faster for 1.

And if you plan on 'storing' the feed its practically frozen for you.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Darryl Kensley said:


> Well its faster for 1.
> 
> And if you plan on 'storing' the feed its practically frozen for you.


Why would waiting for dry ice to sublimate be faster than using CO2 from a canister and a regulator?

Dry ice has the risk of burning the rodents if it's accessible to them (try picking up a piece of the stuff bare-handed ... well, actually, on second thought, don't. You WILL stick to it.).

You cannot control the rate of flow of the CO2 with dry ice, which means you cannot correctly anesthetise then euthanise the rodents. This is why I do not and will not use the vinegar/bicarb method - no control over flow rate, no guarantee that it's EUTHANASIA.

And no, dry ice vapour won't "practically freeze" the rodents for you.


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## Darryl Kensley (Oct 22, 2010)

Nice of you to take a friendly tone with me.

It may take a while to set up but the death is quicker, surly you knew that though as this is what the thread is about. Youre either being facetious or stupid.

And providing that there is water in the tank then yes the Livefood will freeze.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Darryl Kensley said:


> Nice of you to take a friendly tone with me.
> 
> It may take a while to set up but the death is quicker, surly you knew that though as this is what the thread is about. Youre either being facetious or stupid.


I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're aiming for the euthanasia to take approximately five minutes if you're using carbon dioxide - replacing 20% of container volume every minute with CO2 gas. That is the AVMA recommended method of using CO2 with rodents.

And without a regulator, you can't control the rate of gas flow correctly.

Doing it "faster" increases the chance that *conscious* animals will suffer as they asphyxiate.



> And providing that there is water in the tank then yes the Livefood will freeze.


Water?
Tank?

Dunno about you, but my setup is:

CO2 canister
Regulator
Airline tubing from regulator to rodent container
Rodent container, with airline tubing from canister venting into the bottom, one vent at the top for air to escape, substrate in container to keep animals calm and soak up widdle.

Place rodents in container.
Turn regulator on to replace air with CO2, at a slow rate as specified above.
Rodents fall asleep.
Rodents stop breathing.
Rodents develop rigor mortis.

Job done.


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## Darryl Kensley (Oct 22, 2010)

There are two methods of using CO2, youre using 1 Im explaining the other.

Just for arguments sake as your way is ultimately superior to mine, mousetrap.

Quick, painless and humane. You could watch too.:bash:


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're aiming for the euthanasia to take approximately five minutes if you're using carbon dioxide - replacing 20% of container volume every minute with CO2 gas. That is the AVMA recommended method of using CO2 with rodents.
> 
> And without a regulator, you can't control the rate of gas flow correctly.
> 
> ...


It is very important to me that the rodents fall asleep first. I am not undertaking this lightly - I am actually vegetarian myself. It is my concern over the "farmed" conditions of shop bought frozen food that is leading me even to contemplate this! 
I am really not sure about building my own chamber though. If anyone would be interested in making one and selling me it then please PM me. I am based in Herts. but will be at the Kidderminster show. Alternatively I would happily pay for one plus postage to my address...


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## Darryl Kensley (Oct 22, 2010)

Just to throw a spanner in the works...

Im a Lucid dreamer and I can feel everything, sometimes tenfold when I am asleep.

If being asleep has convinced you that you cant feel pain then maybe that will change your mind.

Do what is quickest and cheapest for you. Either way its going to die. Im not trying to sound like an asshole but a realist.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Darryl Kensley said:


> Just to throw a spanner in the works...
> 
> Im a Lucid dreamer and I can feel everything, sometimes tenfold when I am asleep.
> 
> If being asleep has convinced you that you cant feel pain then maybe that will change your mind.


Maybe I should have reiterated the word "unconscious" or better yet "anaesthetised".

Carbon Dioxide has an anaesthetic effect - it knocks you out (not just "makes you sleep") at the correct concentrations - it used to be used as an anaesthetic for human surgery.


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## sizedoesn'tmatter (Jan 24, 2009)

jerboa said:


> It is very important to me that the rodents _*are anaesthetised*_ first. I am not undertaking this lightly - I am actually vegetarian myself. It is my concern over the "farmed" conditions of shop bought frozen food that is leading me even to contemplate this!
> I am really not sure about building my own chamber though. If anyone would be interested in making one and selling me it then please PM me. I am based in Herts. but will be at the Kidderminster show. Alternatively I would happily pay for one plus postage to my address...


perhaps the edit in bold explains my feelings better...


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## nocturnalchunk (Oct 23, 2010)

Washing up bowl. Small plastic container. Dry ice and warm water. Hey presto we have a gas chamber


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

nocturnalchunk said:


> Washing up bowl. Small plastic container. Dry ice and warm water. Hey presto we have a gas chamber


Except that you cannot control the rate of CO2 replacing the air in the container.... which means you cannot anaesthetise THEN euthanise.


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## Wigsyboy (Oct 31, 2010)

What is 'the pencil thing'??


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> What is 'the pencil thing'??


Cervical dislocation I believe. A pencil or similar placed on the back of the neck and a sharp yank on the tail to break the animal's spine. Don't quote me on it though, I'm too much of a girl to kill anything. The stench or rodents puts me off even breeding them!

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## nocturnalchunk (Oct 23, 2010)

The pencil thing is pushing the Sharp end of a pencil or steel ruler down hard at the point where the skull meets the spine whilst at the same time pulling the tail sharply. This severs the spinal cord and kills the rodent. Supposed to be very effective but not my cup of tea. 

A mouses metabolic rate is so high that co2 renders them unconscious in less than a minute and is normally terminal in 1 - 5 mins depending on the age and size of mouse


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## Wigsyboy (Oct 31, 2010)

Oh I see, doesn't seem too bad, but i can see why some people would be put off. I have always thought that frozen food is relatively cheap, especially in bulk. It doesn't seem that much of an expense to go to all that trouble of breeding and killing your own even if you do have a lot of mouths to feed.


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## xdow (Mar 26, 2010)

cervical dislocation is also quite difficult to get right the first few times.
as if you're not quick enough or don't apply enough pressure the mouse will just pull it's head from under the blunt object and all you end up doing is pulling them backwards a few inches.

many people also manage to hold onto the head of the mouse and the tail and pull apart sharply for the same result

i would honestly prefer to gas mine humanely, however, as i cannot afford a canister and regulator at the moment a quick strike of the neck is the only other option for me at the moment.

in reply to the above post from Wigsyboy, many people have issues with the welfare of the animals commonly bought for food in shops, they are often kept in horrendous conditions prior to their death and we would prefer to know the prey items have had a good life and a fast painless death


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## Wigsyboy (Oct 31, 2010)

I hadn't thought of that, I can see where you are coming from now.
Thanks


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## nocturnalchunk (Oct 23, 2010)

some people are real sickos in how they treat there mice. (pencil thingy) or co2 for me.


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## dave_turnip (Oct 10, 2010)

mark1985 said:


> I think thats what Hitler told the Nazi's when killing the Jews "The gas chamber is the most humane way to kill them"
> NOT MEANING TO CAUSE OFFENCE TO ANYONE AND APPOLIGIES IF OFFENCE IS CAUSED


Actually they used gas chambers there because of it's efficiency. I don't think Hitler and humane can be used in the same sentence tbh, efficiency was a higher priority than humane methods.


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## nocturnalchunk (Oct 23, 2010)

i agree they were used because of there efficiency. 

but in all seriousness can anyone actually think of a more humane way of dispatching a human?

cos if im honest i think the current alternatives available by some governments in this world. (stoning, hanging, shooting or leathal injection) 

i think in my own mind gassing is probably the most humane way to do it. cos would you wana be hung? buried up to your neck and pelted with rocks? or strapped to a chair and shot in the chest.....

(i would like to state that i do not condone any of the horrific acts carried out to civilians during the war)


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## dave_turnip (Oct 10, 2010)

nocturnalchunk said:


> i agree they were used because of there efficiency.
> 
> but in all seriousness can anyone actually think of a more humane way of dispatching a human?
> 
> ...


humans haven't been gassed in the states since 1992, the gas used, hydrogen cyanide, wasn't deemed humane enough. Lethal injection replaced gassing. In fact gas chambers were converted into injection rooms.

The nazis used carbon monoxide and later developed zklon B, neither of which were humane. 

Gassing comes under 2 classes, there's toxic gassing and asphyxiation gassing. Zyklon B and hydrogen cyanide are toxic whereas Carbon dioxide is not.


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## eridu (Jul 3, 2010)

*Easier...*

Tupperware tub, tight fitting lid.
Put the rodents in and put them in a very cold freezer.
It doesn´t take them long to die...they stop running around, huddle for warmth, then they sleep...then die...freeze solid.

If you gas them aren´t you then feeding your snake toxins?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

eridu said:


> Tupperware tub, tight fitting lid.
> Put the rodents in and put them in a very cold freezer.
> It doesn´t take them long to die...they stop running around, huddle for warmth, then they sleep...then die...freeze solid.


Household freezers are not the same as blast freezers and result in a VERY inhumane death. Their ears, noses, eyes, limbs and tails will freeze - painfully - before their brain is actually incapable of feeling the pain.

A mouse or rat, once it's got fur, can take hours to DAYS to die in a household freezer.

Blast freezers are a different proposition entirely, and may well be humane for use with hairless animals and/or very small animals that will lose body heat very, very fast.



> If you gas them aren´t you then feeding your snake toxins?


Carbon dioxide gas is only harmful if you *breathe* it in substantial concentration - you're breathing it in a low concentration right now, and if you drink fizzy drinks, you ingest it every time. It's essentially harmless to swallow.


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## eridu (Jul 3, 2010)

*Freezing*

Ewwwwwwwwww then I will stop this being done!
The person I know that said it did not hurt them reckoned he´d gone into it all properly!!!
I am going to badger him now and annoy him untill he agrees to change his method.

I always buy mine anyway cus to be honest I don´t even like to kill crickets.
It´s only about 45 cents a baby mouse and when you work out that against keeping live mice it doesn´t pay.
All I have at the moment is a cane toad and my mum has 6 geckos.
In spring I will hopefully have my new Tegu, so then I will consider keeping some.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

eridu said:


> In spring I will hopefully have my new Tegu, so then I will consider keeping some.


No need to keep mice just because you get a tegu - they're better off fed on a diet that's mostly live insects/invertebrates, fruit and vegetables.


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## eridu (Jul 3, 2010)

*Tegu food*

Not according to Bobby Hill at varnyard.com


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

eridu said:


> Not according to Bobby Hill at varnyard.com


Yeah, I've seen his "fruit's a wasted meal" comment.

I disagree with it, outright, full stop.

Tegus developed in the wild eating a diet largely composed of seasonally-available fruits/leaves, invertebrates and the *occasional* vertebrate or vertebrate egg (with a long brumation in winter where little if anything is eaten). That's what they're made to do, that's what their body is designed to do, and that's how they're meant to function. Therefore, that's what they SHOULD be fed in captivity.

I'd really like to see longevity studies done on animals fed a high-vertebrate diet compared to animals fed a high-invert/fruit diet; I have personally met a number of tegus that have been negatively affected by a diet high in rodents, particularly issues of impaction (due to fur - that one died) and obesity (one boy I met recently is so fat he can't actually move his hind legs. He's now on a diet - strictly vegetable material until he can move around normally). 

I have two adult tegus myself, and although they get the *occasional* rodent prey item or a whole raw egg, their staple diet is locusts, morio worms, roaches, peppers, shredded greens, shredded carrots, papaya, mango, berry fruits and the odd bit of banana or apple. They are healthy, in good weight and active (when it isn't the dead of winter).


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## eridu (Jul 3, 2010)

*Tegus*

He has been breeding them for many years though and his specimens are quite astonishing.
When you speak with him you realise that he is a very thoughtful breeder, not in it just for the money.
So I think alot of what he says makes sense, in the wild a Tegu wouldn´t find alot of vegetation or fruit.
They live in hot, grassy, shrubland don´t they, so not much fruit about.
Maybe they would feed on the odd berry or tuber like root...but I think their diet would mainly be ground dwelling animals, insects and eggs. 
Reds ok are fruit eaters...but B&W´s ?
Hmmmm not so sure.
I used to have a Tegu a few years back, now I am trying to get a hold of one of the larger bulkier specimens.
I´ve ben promised a sale of a Chacoan in Spring :2thumb:

Personally I think I would give alittle fruit just incase of impaction, it´s horrid seeing a Tegu trying to go when it´s impacted, very sad isn´t it.
I used to add alittle virgin olive oil to my minced turkey too just to be on the safe side.

Email me piccies of yer Tegus...I ADORE Tegus 
hehehe


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

eridu said:


> So I think alot of what he says makes sense, in the wild a Tegu wouldn´t find alot of vegetation or fruit.
> They live in hot, grassy, shrubland don´t they, so not much fruit about.
> Maybe they would feed on the odd berry or tuber like root...but I think their diet would mainly be ground dwelling animals, insects and eggs.
> Reds ok are fruit eaters...but B&W´s ?


http://www.ecoevo.com.br/pesquisado...fjuveniletegulizarTupinambismerianae_2002.pdf

Check out page 2, which shows the list of items that were found in the guts of juvenile _T. merianae_ (Argentine Black and White). Primary dietary items are beetles and spiders, lots of seeds found in their guts (implying the consumption of lots of fruit containing seeds - gourd-family things as well as fig-family fruits).



> I used to add alittle virgin olive oil to my minced turkey too just to be on the safe side.


See, I don't do minced turkey either. It's not whole prey, it doesn't have the nutrition of whole prey - I'd sooner see a properly gut-loaded hairless rat fed to a tegu than a plate of pure protein and fat, but that hairless rat isn't a staple diet item, it's an occasional treat.

There are pictures of my tegus around on the forum somewhere.


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