# Bearded Dragon Lump In Abdomen



## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

Hi all, i'm new hear. Just was wondering if anyone else had had a similar problem etc. 

I have a 9 1/2 year old bearded dragon. I believe she is a female from everything I can tell but I have had her since she was 6 months old and she has never laid an egg. I am sending off blood today to confirm sex. I am a regestered veterinary technician in Ontario Canada. She has never been to a reptile vet until today. About 3 years ago she started tremors in her tail and hind legs. I panicked - took her in for x-rays, upped her calcium and vitamins (incase MBD or thiamine difficiency) but none of this helped. I had several vets review x-rays and post on VIN (a veterinarian forum) but no one had any answers. Everyone just said to make sure lights were right temp, tank clean etc which I have always done. I pick my dandilion greens from outside which a vet told me to stop doing as well because of possible pesticides transfering into my field - She had been getting the same food for her entire life, I switched her greens to store bought for a year with no change. She still has tremors of her tail and hind legs. Its like the muscles there just twitch uncontrollably periodically. 

2 nights ago I looked over and she was under her heat lamp with her eyes closed and eyes BULGED right out! scared the **** out of me. She started gasping and I assumed she was about to die. Then about 20 seconds later her eyes popped back in, she stopped gasping, opened her eyes and just looked at me like I was the weird one. Has seemed fine since but still having tremors so I decided to bring her in to the vet I work for.

Vet confirmed she's in great body condition. She felt her abdomen and felt this big hard mass on her left side. (about a marble size and movable) I had never felt it before and I frequently palpate etc because she is on sand substrate (i know i know - she has a non sand place to eat and has never had a problem with impaction). We did an x-ray - comes up with half a bit denser then the other half - bones look good (not MBD with the tremors). The vet was thinking it was tumor that we'd have to take out but we did a fine needle asperate on it to see if we could get any cells to confirm tumor type - needle was almost impossible to get in it was so hard and when she pulled it out what came out was hard and bright orange strand that had virtually no cells and appeared to be just fat under the microscope. We both have never seen anything likes this and have really no idea what it could be. She doesn't think its an egg. Its rock hard and bright orange. I mean BRIGHT. It doesn't seem to be bothering her and I don't think it is what is causing the tremors so were going to leave it and see if it grows over the next week or two - take it out if necessary. 

Anyone have any ideas on what it could be? Anyone seen an egg taken out of a beardy - is it like this? If she comes back Male (which since she's never laid an egg everything online says she probably is) then it can't be an egg... Her poops are never hard - always a tiny bit runny and have been the same since she was 6 months. I made her poop today with a bath and the lump didn't change. Anyway any ideas would be great! 

Thanks and sorry this is so long.


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

*Link to video of tremors*

Here is a link to a video I posted of the tremors so you could see: Tail tremors in bearded dragon - YouTube


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

The bulging eyes and gaping are normal. Beadies will bulge their eyeballs when they are getting ready to shed to loosen the film over them. Gaping is a form of thermoregulation and I'm suprised you'd not seen that before with her. Quite normal.

By the descriptions I'm suspecting fatty liver diseases and / or Folicular stasis.

I'd suggest you get her to a specialist reptile vet to deal with her. It sounds like the vet she is seeing is floundering around a bit and could in fact be doing more harm than good. She's been in a couple of times already and each time will be stressing the hell out of her.

You could always send all you have collected together to a specialist vet and ask them for their opinion.


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

Sounds like the vet you went to is lacking in experience with bearded dragons I would find another vet. 

The lump could be anything abscess/fatty liver disease/egg bound/impacted/tumor but an experienced herp vet would be the person to diagnose this I'm not sure you will find the help on the forum. 

Your adult dragon should be really easy to sex just by looking under it's tail an experienced vet wouldn't need a blood sample. 

Eyes popping out is normal before shedding.


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

She is renowned as one of the best in ontario - there is no way it's organ related, there were no cells - if it is some sort of tumor which I also don't think is possible because once again there were no cells and that's what a tumor is an overgrowth of - it's unlike anything I've ever seen before. (Being a registered veterinary technician and working in the industry for 10 years). There is no pus so its no an abscess. We are doing bloodwork anyways so she said we'd DNA sex to be sure because why not? Lump isn't located near liver or kidneys on X-ray. She is checking with some other reptile specialists but I just figured i'de post on here to see if anyone had heard of anything similar being neon orange and hard as a rock in the off chance someone had.


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

I guess we'll see the bloodwork tomorrow as well about the liver, it's not so much gaping as gasping. Lungs looked fine on X-rays though. Thank you for the information on folicular stasis. Ill look into it and the fatty liver. I've just never seen fatty liver cause a ball like this - so hard and big - and it wasn't near the liver on the X-ray. Thanks - any other ideas would be great


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

Arabolical said:


> Thanks - any other ideas would be great


If it was me I would take a nice clear picture of the lump and send it to a few of the big bearded dragon breeders and ask their opinion on it.


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

You can't see it - I didn't even notice it until the vet palpated it - it was kind of under the ribs but it moves around. Currently it's much lower on the left sided but you can only feel it if you really push in but then you can kinda grab onto it. We've booked her in for tentative surgery tomorrow based on the blood results etc. the thing is she is acting completely normal other then the tremors - eating and drinking great, not lethargic. She was eating up a storm even there. That's why I'm hesitant to do surgery. She should be sicker. Who knows how long that lumps been there? She's a girl yet never laid an egg... It's all very weird.


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## marie_k (Apr 21, 2006)

These are frequently abscessated follicles but neoplasms, granulomas and independent abscesses are not unusual. I would scan her first, but regardless of cause surgery is likely to be your main treatment option so definitely the best approach.


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## seager (Jul 5, 2013)

When I first got my beardie, he had several hard lumps like you are describing, and it turned out he was dehydrated when I got him and the lumps were urate. Might be worth putting her in a bath and see if she poops then have another feel?


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Could she by any chance have been swallowing anything in her viv or where she runs. it could possibly be a foreign body in there.

As said above, looks like surgical exploration might be an option on this.


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

Turns out she had about 15 intact necrotic eggs and 3 which had already burst. We preformed surgery yesterday and she is recovering well. I wish I could post pics without linking them from somewhere else... She has a bit of pancreatitis but is otherwise doing well - woke up, had another big poop and was eating in no time! Things are looking good.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Glad to hear she is looking up Arabolical. I hope your vet decided to spay her at the same time to avoid this possibly happening again. Once a female has been eggbound once then for some reason they seem to be at a higher risk of it from what I've read / been told.

Saying that though, this should have actually been the first thing that he ruled out and if he deals with reptiles often then its something that he should easily have seen before. A female dragon with lumps in the belly and the first thing you should be checking for is follicular stasis, obstruction and eggs. Eggs would have been clear to see on an xray and/or a scan.


What substrate is she on btw, Not being able to find a suitable lay site can be a major cause of eggbinding. If she has not been spayed (ask him) then make sure to keep a lay box in for her at all times in case she produces infertiles again, at least if she starts to dig you will get a heads up and can keep a close eye on her.


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

We did spay her. X-rays did not show normal egg patterns - did not look anything like it and was only on one side. X-Ray looked like one large mass on one side - other side showed nothing but when we got in they were on both sides. She did suggest egg bound as a possibility but she was thinking more tumor because of size, shape, feel and reptiles behaviour. I'm glad she was just egg-bound instead. I have also never felt eggs that high in the abdomen - up almost all the way under the ribs at first. That is why I kept second guessing the egg thing. The way the vet discussed the different possibilities with me is different then she would have approached it with a normal client because I work there and whenever she said something about what it was ide come up with a reason why it didn't fit. It definitely wasn't a classic egg bound case from the ones I've seen... But that's just me. Her tank is half sand and half a slab of rock (where she eats) the tank is about the size of a coffin lol with a piece of wood she goes on to bask. Ya I'm glad she's doing well


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Arabolical said:


> We did spay her. X-rays did not show normal egg patterns - did not look anything like it and was only on one side. X-Ray looked like one large mass on one side - other side showed nothing but when we got in they were on both sides. *She did suggest egg bound as a possibility but she was thinking more tumor because of size, shape, feel and reptiles behaviour*. I'm glad she was just egg-bound instead. I have also never felt eggs that high in the abdomen - up almost all the way under the ribs at first. That is why I kept second guessing the egg thing. *The way the vet discussed the different possibilities with me is different then she would have approached it with a normal client because I work there and whenever she said something about what it was ide come up with a reason why it didn't fit.* It definitely wasn't a classic egg bound case from the ones I've seen... But that's just me. Her tank is half sand and half a slab of rock (where she eats) the tank is about the size of a coffin lol with a piece of wood she goes on to bask. Ya I'm glad she's doing well



That is the exact reason why she should have thrown you out the room and did HER job and not let you try do it for her. You made her second guess herself also and it cost you both time and money. Its why doctors are never allowed to treat their own family, as it clouds their judgment the same way. She is the vet, your a tech, she is trained to diagnose, your not.....next time keep your nose out of her job and do your own. If left to her own devices then chances are she would have opened her up a lot sooner to explore and see what was going on instead of second guessing and looking for other 'treatable' things instead. Always let a vet run their hunch. : victory:


Glad she has been spayed also. You might want to keep an extra eye on her calcium and hormone levels for a while to see if they all settle down properly. (your a tech,,,this you are allowed to do lol...)


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

I would have done the same thing had it been a different veterinary clinic and not a technician. It's good to question if things don't make sense. It was something that was found that had nothing to do with what I brought her in for and didn't seem to be affecting her - the vet also agreed with this. I wasn't about to have the vet cut her open for either no reason or if it was something that wouldn't prolong her life and put her through unnecessary pain and suffering. That's why I chose to do the bloodwork and X-rays first - not just cut in and see, which in my opinion would have been ridiculous. I in no way diagnosed her myself - I questioned the diagnosis as I would at any veterinary clinic which I do not have to have any qualifications to do. The first thing she thought it was a tumour and I questioned what type it could possibly be with it so mobile and that I didn't want to cut in without knowing. What if we had cut in and it had been nothing? Or worse something we couldn't remove and now she had to recover from the surgery while living her last while? If the doctor had been sure as to what it was she would have told me but she wasn't because nothing was clear cut. She even said that waiting a couple of days wouldn't be unreasonable to see if it grew/changed size as she still was acting normal and eating and drinking. We posted the X-rays and case on vin - the veterinary message board and had many reptile vets comment with different opinions and options. If I had taken her to another clinic and they had also stated that they weren't 100% sure and that they just had a hunch but nothing was really fitting and she didn't seem sick otherwise I most likely would have declined surgery and then where would we be? Surgery is always risky and I didn't want to put her through it if it wasn't necessary - as any good pet owner I believe would do.


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

I never question her diagnosis of other peoples animals nor do I question a clients decisions as they are always presented with all the options just have to decide. The doctor also does not just decide one option for them - it would be insane. She laid out the possibilities - some of which she stated were more likely then others and told me the options based on those. That is then my decision and my decision alone - which she also told me, as it would be to any owner of a pet. I wonder if you had been in my situation at the vet if you would have asked what the lump in the abdomen was before opting to have it surgically removed?


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

We had a sick dog at another clinic I've worked at and we didn't know what was wrong - nothing on X-rays but the doctor thought he felt something in the stomach, he had a "hunch" something was there - neither of the other two doctors could feel it and they decided to do surgery. Went in - nothing. 2 days later the dog died - never really recovered from the anesthetic. All because some vomiting and diarrhea. This is because the owner when presented with the options was given this option - because if there was something there that it ate and wasn't passing and needed to be removed then it would have to have surgery. Would the dog still be alive now if we hadn't done surgery? Who knows... I can tell you though the last two days of that dogs life were he'll for it - on the highest dose of pain meds and continuously screaming or completely out of it. This is why you question and make INFORMED decisions on all the information you can gather - not diagnose and treat based off a hunch. Also why the doctor should ALWAYS give options - not just decide 100% for the pet owner


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## Arabolical (Sep 18, 2013)

With my own health I went to 3 different doctors over 8months with a completely torn acl in my left knee - was told it was just a bad sprain - talked to a few nurses who said it COULD be an acl tear (those bad diagnosing nurses for listing the possibilities!) finally went to the emerg clinic and got an MRI - my family doctor phone me up with the results amazed that I was able to walk - let alone for the past 8 months since my acl had been obliterated. I love doctors who just diagnose instead of thinking what the possibilities might be - they're just amazing arnt they?


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