# buying dart frogs



## dave103 (Jan 4, 2015)

sorry if this seems a silly question but its been niggling at me since I started looking at frogs.

im looking at getting a pair/trio of frogs when my tanks ready but have been thinking about how to go about buying them.

do I just go and buy 2/3 frogs from the same shop or do I try and source them from different shops?

the reason I ask is because I presume if there from the same shop/tank there from the same parents,would this become an issue if they bred?i know a lot of animals breeding a brother/sister can cause issues but is it the same with frogs or am I just worrying over nothing.

cheers dave


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

the 'inbreeding' in frogs is a very talked about subject, some people prefer to try and get unrelated pairs to basically try and prevent anything that may pop up in the future. there's alot of research going into it. i dont know a great deal, but many believe due to the potentially small pockets of these frogs in the wild that there is a high chance of them breeding with a relative.

going to two shops will not stop you getting related frogs, many shops buy from the same wholesalers or even private breeders, so there's a chance that they'll be related. i know marc at dartfrog advertises being able to sell unrelated specimens. 

hopefully Stu and Mike will be along to clear up the nature of the subject


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## dave103 (Jan 4, 2015)

didn't even think about different shops sourcing from the same place lol.

finding a private breeder within a reasonable distance is what I ideally want to do but will use a shop as a last resort.

cheers dave


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

there's a guy called callum in your neck of the woods, he's an awesome duderino. you'll find a few breeders on here, they will have at varying times of hte year different frogs available. 

if you are worried, just ask where people got their frogs from, i got my mysties off J, now if i didnt know, i could get some from Stu, J's mysties CAME from Stu lol. 

It's an odd old discussion, because you could say alot of the frogs in the uk market will be related, even if imported from europe


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

inbreeding isn't normally an issue for frogs, i certainly haven't heard of any incest style issues before.

My 3 mysti males came from Stu but my female is from a different line so the youngsters that I've sold (ones that joe mentioned ^) are not immediately related to one another.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting some from different breeders etc as it can be a mission. Especially as a lot of shops will buy from the same company as Joe mentioned, peregrine i think are a popular one.

I'd always look to buy from a private breeder over a shop every time!

What frogs are you after Dave?


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## dave103 (Jan 4, 2015)

I really like the look of citronela's and have been told there a good started frog so that was my 1st choice although im pretty open minded because I know i'll end up with more than 1 tank lol

cheers dave


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i started with a tank for milk frogs, i've now got Mysties, Leucs, Auratus and Azzies lol and getting a rack done for 9/10 tanks eek aha

i've never bothered getting mine from two different sources. i got 2 leucs from dartfrog and three from J, but that was due to two leucs being my start off


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Joe has spoken a lot of sense.
Dartfrogs do interbreed in the wild at some stage because of the small areas they live in.
Take Bastis for instance, you dont see them swimming to the mainland for a new mate, they just jump the first female that comes along.
Now who said forget shops? 
I can confirm that Marc at Dartfrog has frogs for sale that are pairs from different sources.
How do I know? 
Because some of them came from me and the others from a different breeder who has unrelated frogs to mine. 
So if you want to go source your frogs from Dartfrog, go ahead, you'll have nowt to worry about.

Mike


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Not wanting to get bogged down in detail, but there is a lot of misunderstanding about the inbreeding issue (or non-issue, depending on who you listen to). There are no OBVIOUS negative effects within a couple of generations but you wouldn't necessarily expect there to be. Most likely there will be a drift towards reduced reproductive success over several generations.

Although some dart frog populations are restricted by geography, you need to remember that the number of 'unrelated' individuals required to found a diverse population does not seem that many in the wild, whereas in captivity it is. 60 is the number commonly cited, rightly or wrongly. In a 10 square km patch of forest 60 unrelated frogs does not seem like a big ask. Finding 60 unrelated dart frogs of any species in our hobby would be, I suggest, next to impossible (even if there was documentation).

So, on balance, best to at least try to source unrelated frogs. The world won't end if you don't, but you'll be doing the hobby a favour in the long run if you do and keep records.

As for buying from shops, I don't anymore. That's my stance...

Nick


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## treefella (Dec 21, 2013)

This is a good subject to bring up.
I purchased my first two tinc alanis from Dave booth in the north east who sadly doesn't sell frogs any more but as my search continued over about 14 months I found a few shops up north and a few people selling their tinc alanis only to find out after enquiries that the people selling their alanis had purchased them directly from Dave or from the shop that Dave supplied his frogs to and the other shops had got their stock locally from people who got their frogs either from Dave or the shop where Dave's stock was sold.
so I'm about 70% sure that all the people that I've spoken over the last 14 months in one way or another has frogs that are related to Dave's original stock.
let me apologize to the shops and private breeders who obtain stock from other sources.
I now have 2 females and four males but I'm only interested in selling the young frogs from the first pair as these are the only frogs that I can say are from different blood lines.
it's a real shame about Dave one hell of a frog room and a really nice bloke to deal with. :notworthy:


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## dave103 (Jan 4, 2015)

thanks for the replies/info.

I just wanna get started on the right foot and didn't really want to go about it in the wrong way and have to make changes after ive bought the frogs.

cheers dave


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

Yes I agree with much of what has already been said.The research journey you will have to travel to secure unrelated dartfrogs in my opinion is virtually impossible and verifying the authenticity of the claims of descendency is more a matter of faith than fact
Many years ago I bred bearded dragons,they were sold to buyers all over the U.K.and I witnessed them offered for sale at shows in various parts of the country,attempting to access different bloodlines from different suppliers is a flawed approach unless trusted records can be accessed.
As far as the necessity of continually out crossing I think it is very much over stated.Genetic defects only become significant if they have negative effect on the phenotype,i.e.physical characteristics.
In breeding is a fundamental practice in other areas of captive breeding from snakes to mammals to birds etc.etc.to fix desirable but unnatural traits. Small groups of inbreeding animals very rarely produce mutated genes that confer survival coupled with a compromised function such as fertility.And a fatal gene? well it doesn't survive.The problem arises when two bad mutated recessive genes come together that will detract from normal development,but if the breeding group doesn't have any bad genes the problem doesn't exist.
If your really want to attempt the unrelated route talk to private breeders but for me a well bred healthy preferably sub adult to adult frog is a better goal to persue than a dubious family tree.
On a more pragmatic approach does anyone know of any dartfrog colonies that have suffered from inbreeding related problems?
Terry


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

anni said:


> On a more pragmatic approach does anyone know of any dartfrog colonies that have suffered from inbreeding related problems?
> Terry



Because of the small areas that dart frogs colonise it is pretty much a guarantee that there is incest going on.
But lets get real here.
Who actually cares about inbreeding within the hobby ? Probably more than those that don`t.
Can we do anything about it ? Not really, because we don`t know who has what or where they originated.
Is it worth losing sleep over ? Nope, because any damage that could be done has probably already been done.
So the best thing we can do is make the best of what we have and do our best to keep our frogs happy.


Mike


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## dave103 (Jan 4, 2015)

thanks for the very informative posts.

like I said in an earlier post I'd rather ask the questions and not make the mistakes rather than trying to correct mistakes after they've been made.

its great to know that theres no issues keeping related frogs:2thumb:

cheers dave


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I think Dave that you`ll find there are more people keeping related frogs than will admit to it.
I`m fortunate that most of mine are unrelated, but I did say most.
But you won`t get people to admit to it very easily.
Just go out and buy the frogs you want and be happy.
Hmmmm when I think about it, although it`s slightly different.
I have frogs breeding every year in my pond, and each year their numbers increase as previous batches of froglets become mature.
Soon it will be impossible for me to count how many frogs are using the pond, so much so that I`m considering putting in a 2nd but larger pond.
This all started from a couple of dozen tadpoles that a friend gave me that she collected while out hill walking.
So I`m responsible for hundreds and hundreds of inbred frogs around here, and am I worried ?
Not a chance.
I`ve done my bit to help keep a dwindling population from disappearing.
Nature will do the rest.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Mike something interesting to you,I suspect,regarding the wild frogs temporia and the possible formation of an inbred line. When I was a kid like so many I would rear just a few tads of this species,often I'd release these at a new pond that had no frogs. It would be risky to do this now I might add,but chytrid and Rv weren't talked on much say 30/40years back. My Auntie has a small walled garden with a pond,pretty much escape proof to a frog if not completely so,ha she has a small pond,and duly got frogs(or tads about to morph from yours truely. As far as I know that same population is still thriving,certainly there only a couple of years back. Ha ha they are fairly keen gardeners never ever see a slug on their patch:2thumb: So my point for you is just how inbred is that little pocket. Sure maybe some do get both in and out,but I strongly suspect very very few have managed this. I really do find it amazing though that they still there after all this time down solely to the misdamenors of one little kid that loved frogs.

As far as darts go sure, I do try to get unrelated stock now I'll hold my hand up to our first group of leucs being related,oh and actually our redheads are tone I worry little on the leucs,folks can always grab unrelated stock,the histos not such a big gene pool so I'm stuck for a while but have hopes that Ivan will ammend this. 

Some of these populations like bastimentos must be incredibly young in the big scheme of our planet,I am pretty sure I'm right in saying the actual islands then selves are only around 10,000 years old,as all ways will stand corrected. These fragmented pops, must start from a fairly small gene pool to gravitate towards a similar phenotype (appearance),inbreeding surely must happen,but as already mentioned,nature has a hard selection process ,so only the best adapted to a given niche will do well.

For me the way forwards is to try and get unrelated stock,if at all possible,but as been mentioned with no records kept much here this is no certain thing to achieve. I'm pragmatic about the situation,I'd always urge more records and even desire to move the hobby towards stud books etc,plus encourage new guys to try and find unrelated stock,as these are things that will bode well for the future. By the same token I fear this will never happen. I've just also illustrated, sure a different genus, where a group of likely siblings are thriving tens of years later,so don#t really tie my self in knots that I have some frogs breeding that are related.

Mind I'm damned if I feel any need to hide this,I'd much rather folks knew and also read these debates,pros and cons, then they can make their own choices. Lets face it how many of us can actually prove that our frogs are unrelated anyway,even with say my WC attacibakka,that pair could still potentially be siblings,who knows. So I think we have similar views on this one,sure the helpful thoughts will always be try and get unrelated stock,but in no way do we live in an ideal world where there are real 100% guarantees that said frogs are actually as stated.

I'm also sure that if a gene pool is isolated in the wild those frogs will interbreed over time,which isn't always the end of the world. Hell we wouldn't have all these amazing morphs of pumillio etc ,with out all this,it just wouldn't happen if the whole population of pumillio interbred and were not closed of on islands or by mountains or other geographical features ,they should really all look the same. What a loss to the world that would be. 

By the same token we do deal in very small numbers of those said populations so it always has to be worth thinking on the long term implications and looking for a potential outcross . I really do see both sides of this one mate

best

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well Stu that was another mouthful lol.
But I read every word.
A while back I read a scientific document online about research done into frogs and inbreeding and the conclusion was basically that it doesn`t affect frogs like say, humans.
But I`m damned if I can find it again.
So for anyone familiar with that awesome movie Deliverance, don`t worry, your not going to be finding any banjo playing frogs in your viv any time soon :2thumb:.
And for those not familiar with the movie check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myhnAZFR1po
Anyway on the subject of related frogs.
Of the 12 species I keep here only 2 of them are related, the other 10 are not to my knowledge, due to where I got them from and enquiries I made into where they came from.


Mike


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)




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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

Just wondering if the main point of this discussion has not been lost somewhere.Those dozen or so, possibly unrelated, temporaria are not in-breeding.True inbreeding that results in serious negative genetic defects is a product of crossing (back crossing) of very closely related individuals,such as offspring back to parents and the crossing of siblings,generaly in artificial selective breeding progammes,for multiple generations.As already stated problems do not usualy manifest themselves for the first few generations, after that, individuals outcrossing with cousins 1st. 2nd.etc.the problem becomes less significant.I accept that that small founder populations can give rise to a loss of genetic variation but there are many examples of genetic bottlenecks that seem to have very little effect on a populations fitness.
Consider the frogs we have ,it matters not where they come from, they are in effect a product of selection.We keep and breed the individuals that have survived capture, transport, artificial housing,lighting,foods and larval rearing This results in a drift towards a captive genetic profile as opposed to a wild one.,not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, at least it confers a potentially higher success rate. Those ever expanding population of genetically isolated frogs in the pond are almost certainly genetically dissimilar to the original population as they have drifted to adapt to their environment and achieve greater fitness.
The point here is that THEORETICALLY outcrossing to individuals with a different genetic profile i.e.wild caught,could have a deleterious effect on captive survival.
Please don`t misunderstand me I am definitely not advocating in or even line breeding when it can be avoided,but with proper attention paid occational close relation crosses are permissible.
As referred to in an earlier post, it seems that our inate fear of this issue is due to the legal rulings applied to human relations, and folklore. Well I for one will be on the lookout for those banjo playing frogs.
Terry


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## Girino (Dec 8, 2014)

Hi. Just got to read that last post Terry and found it very interesting .Gave me a lot to think about ,I like many thought that the purchase of closely related stock was a journey into major problems but it seems that with proper practices the bad aspects of it can be lessened,and although not to be recommended is not necessarily a disaster
Supprised that there were no responses to your post, maybe it should be put into the genetics forum,or maybe they are all still in deep thought.
Girino.:hmm::hmm::hmm:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Girino said:


> maybe they are all still in deep thought.
> Girino.:hmm::hmm::hmm:




Haha not a chance.



Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

anni said:


> Just wondering if the main point of this discussion has not been lost somewhere.Those dozen or so, possibly unrelated, temporaria are not in-breeding.True inbreeding that results in serious negative genetic defects is a product of crossing (back crossing) of very closely related individuals,such as offspring back to parents and the crossing of siblings,generaly in artificial selective breeding progammes,for multiple generations.As already stated problems do not usualy manifest themselves for the first few generations, after that, individuals outcrossing with cousins 1st. 2nd.etc.the problem becomes less significant.I accept that that small founder populations can give rise to a loss of genetic variation but there are many examples of genetic bottlenecks that seem to have very little effect on a populations fitness.
> Consider the frogs we have ,it matters not where they come from, they are in effect a product of selection.We keep and breed the individuals that have survived capture, transport, artificial housing,lighting,foods and larval rearing This results in a drift towards a captive genetic profile as opposed to a wild one.,not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, at least it confers a potentially higher success rate. Those ever expanding population of genetically isolated frogs in the pond are almost certainly genetically dissimilar to the original population as they have drifted to adapt to their environment and achieve greater fitness.
> The point here is that THEORETICALLY outcrossing to individuals with a different genetic profile i.e.wild caught,could have a deleterious effect on captive survival.
> Please don`t misunderstand me I am definitely not advocating in or even line breeding when it can be avoided,but with proper attention paid occational close relation crosses are permissible.
> ...


Actually Tell considering I have been involved:blush: I think this has stayed pretty much on topic. But I will just run the temporia for a bit more though if I may as I think they are a classic case of being inbred,here's why. It is seriously likely that mine and probably mikes,but I can't speak for him are siblings ,I would have taken a tiny bit of one set of spawn,knowing full well that any more would produce so many tads I'd never cope,with rearing them. It's not only a topic of discussion with mike,but of real relevence to this topic,all be it not darts,fair play. But a real world example of decades of siblings inbreeding,unless many males fathered those eggs,which is unlikely. 
Beyond that I concur,they won't be the same now as what went in the pond and nor will our glass box captives after a few generations in captivity!!


We, I think are all pretty much on the same page kiddo,but I think you have picked up on and read about outbreeding depression which is great as folks can dig into this,it's cool you brought this up.I see exactly why you said about the theoretical potential of a Wc outcross,personally I think that is a bit extreme,but I get what you have proposed. More than that though for me it gives a great example of why we shouldn't mix morphs,of the same species,hybrid vigor is going to be quoted way more than outbreeding depression isn't it. I'll hold my own hand up to knowing nothing of outbreeding depression until not so long ago,which is why I'd preffer folks to dig 

Terry honestly I think you have it.I tend to think of line breeding as exactly what you have described as true inbreeding,it can be both a curse and a benefit though. We can clearly see it as a curse in our domesticated dogs,breathing problems hip displacia(sp?) bla bla. Maybe a blessing though if one eats hens eggs,ha now I'm going off topic. Essentially I'm schooled in inbreeding/line breeding because I worked with rare breeds,I know at least some of the pitfalls and some of the benefits,so have little fear of inbreeding persay. 

That said i'm glad the dart hobby has the ethos it does about all this,as so many have outlined here,cool posts though mate good to ponder such stuff.

Ha mike sorry mate,was only meant to be a couple of ruddy lines, and this one too:bash::blush:

Ain't it cool that Girino thinks we can think deeply though:2thumb: Girino cheers bro kindest thing this year that's for sure,LMAO:lol2: 

seeya

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> Ha mike sorry mate,was only meant to be a couple of ruddy lines, and this one too:bash::blush:
> 
> 
> seeya
> ...



Stu it wouldn`t be you any other way, keep it up lol.


Mike


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