# Tortoise vs other reptiles - sensitivity - why?



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Just one thing I'm sort of wondering.. why is there a so much higher level of sensitivity with tortoise keepers than other reptiles?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating wild caught, imported, anything. I'm stating what I consider to be facts and then asking peoples opinions on it  Discuss, don't argue!!

Examples:

Inverts - 90% + seem to be wild collected. This is accepted, they're not easy to breed in captivity and the cost of selling them is not really worth anyone breeding in large numbers.

Snakes / Lizards - there are many accepted "captive" species like leopard geckos, bearded dragons etc. but there are many which are sold wild caught. Some people frown on this. Some people buy them. Shops sell them because there's a demand, and wild caught is often the only way to get hold of some species.

Then we come to tortoises....

The demand is far higher than the supply, unfortunately, possibly due to the time they take to become mature and the space they need as adults. Pet shops sell imports because it meets the demand. Almost every post in the tortoise forum seems to contain people saying how bad pet shops are, how bad importing is, how bad wild caught is, how irresponsible people are etc.

I am wondering just why it is that tortoise keepers have such strong opinions when is it not identical to wild caught or imported lizards/snakes/spiders etc? All the animals can have parasites, all of them can have disease, all of them can be stressed.. yet I have only seen the huge condemnation of pet shops or importers in the tortoise forum.

I'm just wondering why it is lizard/snake keepers seem more accepting of import/wc than tortoise keepers.


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## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

Isnt it strange how you have had no responce to this thread?!:hmm: ...

Could be that no tort people come to this part of the forum.......or, the fact that non-tort people are just "waitin in the wings" : victory: ...*T.T.*8)


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

The whole wild caught thing is exadurated. 

After some research, i have found the main sources of the WC tort "propergander" to be 2/3 breeders (NO NAMES) who constantly condemn pet shops and other sources as an "inferior" product, to boost thier own sales. 

During a conversation with another member of this forum, on the phone (again no names) i was told that there had been a trap, where a alias of this member (another username) asked about a sick tort from a non existant shop. A breeder came back, straight away, claiming to have had deelings with this shop in the past and the animal was "certiainly" wc. 

This in my opinion is only to boost their own reputations, and sales. 

If otherwise, why do they lie (see above) and make such a big issue. 

There are inevatably going to be a few WC torts "slipping throught the net" but this can only be benificial in the long run, in intorducing new blood lines, and thus having a deeper gene pool. 

I usnderstand that they are CITES, and are endangered, but the fact of the matter is that the problem is nowhere near as bad as it is made out to be. 

If there is a big problem, Prove it.
You have been asked on a number of occasions, to give references, statements from defra, cites and other sources, but have faild to produce any evidance. 

In another light, i can see the issue. 

Basically, the animals in question are endangered, and are protected. 

But so are other speices, snakes lizards etc. and No one has a issue with that. 

A few slip throught he net, as said, it will never be fool proof, or perfect. But the issue ist nearly as big as it is made out to be.

If it is, Give me proof, and i will retract this statement, and appologise. 

Dan


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## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

It is as predictated..."waitin in the wings"...

This thread was opened days ago...

no responce...

I posted at 10.06pm...12 minutes later...............bingo...

With such accusations flyin around...name names...*T.T.*8)


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

I will not name names. 

I only replied, as i use the "new posts" icon in the tool bar and reply to the ones that "take my eye" in the top list. 

If you look at my recent posts you will find that i was not on when this was posted, so it wasnt brought to my attention until it was bumped up by yourself.


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## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

darkdan99 said:


> I will not name names.
> 
> I only replied, as i use the "new posts" icon in the tool bar and reply to the ones that "take my eye" in the top list.
> 
> If you look at my recent posts you will find that i was not on when this was posted, so it wasnt brought to my attention until it was bumped up by yourself.


Ha ha ha ha...not another stalker:whip: ...

To be honest there are not that many genuine UK tort breeders on this forum, now I know you are not refering to me in "*the little make up another user name scam*" but I do take offence to you saying that UK breeders slag off others... (in your words) to boost their own sales. 
Again, I know this is not directed at me...but that there is "fightin talk" :lol2: *T.T*....8)


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I just find it sad that almost every post in the tortoise forum includes a reference to a) pet shops being bad and b) pet shops dealing in WC tortoises. As a pet shop I find it a little condemning considering I've only sold one hermann's by special order and it came from a wholesaler - UK it said on the Cites paperwork. 

Anyway, I just don't understand how I can sell 20 species of WC lizard and people just say oh, well, supply and demand, don't like it but we don't hate you.... a pet shop sells one WC tortoise and they're condemned for life on every forum that some of the people on here visit.

Someone can ask for help on a completely different matter, and it'll come down to slagging off WC tortoises on the tort forum.. I just don't understand the prejudice.

I would understand if snake/lizard people felt the same, but there are many species of unprotected tort like horsefields, leopards that are not endangered and should really be no different to importing a lizard or a snake.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Exactly what i think. 

I can see the problem with WC CITES listed animals, i too would be angry if people were bringing in WC Mexican red knees, Jamacan Boas' Dumbrells etc.

If you actually look at the "figures" and the facts, you will find that in reality, very very few WC torts get here. 

I don't say none, because some will "slip through" but very few. It is not a simple as just getting the paperwork, and thats it, you need inspections vet checks, export papers, import papers, licenses, quarentene facilities, and a host of other "red tape"

TT, i have no problem with you, and dont want another argument. Can we both be nice please?

Dan


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

As far as inverts go it is 90% are captive bred and only 10% are WC the WC being new species that are best left for the experts and highly experienced and breeding inverts is not too hard. The only inverts that havent had much success in breeding with except tarantula barn's is centipedes. 

As far as the tort thing maybe its the latest taboo havent really noticed what goes on with captive breeding and dealers in torts.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I think alot of adult inverts are WC at the moment, but the amount of people breeding different species and not just common ones, that all the slings and juvis you see for sale are definately CB or possibly CF.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Well I have a wholesaler list here with 30 species of adult tarantula, all WC... about 20 different species of juveniles.. only 2 are CB, a mexican red knee and a martinique pink toe.. everything else is also WC. I guess it depends where you buy from but certainly I would imagine many pet shops buy in from the major lists which are 90% WC. Same with Scorpions, pet shops want adults, not babies, all the adults are WC I think, a lot of the babies are CB these days though.. but many other scorpions seem WC, and centipedes/millipedes.

Mantids I know are usually CB though.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

its because tarantulas take a long time to mature and people dont want to wait, to buy an adult CB tarantula your going to have to be waiting for it to mature for 2-3 years some longer than that, so for the effort the moneys not worth it, im more than happy to buy all my tarantulas as slings I think thats half the fun watching them grow


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

darkdan99 said:


> During a conversation with another member of this forum, on the phone (again no names) i was told that there had been a trap, where a alias of this member (another username) asked about a sick tort from a non existant shop. A breeder came back, straight away, claiming to have had deelings with this shop in the past and the animal was "certiainly" wc.


Wow some people have too much time on their hands!:lol2:


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

Athravan said:


> Well I have a wholesaler list here with 30 species of adult tarantula, all WC... about 20 different species of juveniles.. only 2 are CB, a mexican red knee and a martinique pink toe.. everything else is also WC. I guess it depends where you buy from but certainly I would imagine many pet shops buy in from the major lists which are 90% WC. Same with Scorpions, pet shops want adults, not babies, all the adults are WC I think, a lot of the babies are CB these days though.. but many other scorpions seem WC, and centipedes/millipedes.
> 
> Well put, but i have about 18 species that i have bought as slings over the last few years that i am gowing on to adult after all a tarantula costs about 1p per week to feed and as i heat the entire spider room the heating is there anyway, i normally buy slings in 100 lots and ALWAYS keep 30% to grow on to adult. out of the 6000+ tarantulas i have here over 2000 are being kept to grow on, i started this programm about 4 years ago and have kept about 30 back from each batch each year.
> 
> ...


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## ianyork (Sep 11, 2006)

the way i see it as since i have been shot down in mid flight in the tort section, is that people can choose to join either side of the arguement but its never going to solve it.

end of the day, like i have, make your own decision on wether or not to listen to the less welcoming of members or not too. members who have told me that a tort is not for me i have kept my trap shut and read what they have given for advice etc to other people as well as doing my own research and asking questions of other people to see if i could honestly look after a tort and i feel i can.

now i own a 7 year old leopard tort who has had a too high protein diet from its previous owners which now i am working with to get it eating what it should be and hopefully lead a happy life from now on. if i wasnt serious about animals why would i buy an animal which is going to take at least 5 years to rectify the mistakes of its past (im aware that it will never fully go, only can improve).

people have good and bad days, strong opinions or ones that can be swayed but end of the day if they can provide you with advice that is going to help an animal in your keeping whatever its past, isnt it worth gritting your teeth, not jumping on the arguement band wagon and listening what is to be said?

the tort section does have its radicals and they can be just pain in the arses at times when you seriously want help etc but overall they only care about animals and want to see whats best for them overall! alot of their opinions i dont agree with but i can see why they do think that but setting traps to prove that they are bullshitting to boost their reputation??so what, leave them to it.....they will slip up and all will come out.

its just a forum end of the day


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my friend has a sulcata, the thing grows like daily. it's like furniture that moves


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## Paul Chase (Mar 7, 2007)

There are several of us older peeps who can remember back a few years when you could go down to the market and buy a tort for about 2 bob, the poor things were imported in bulk all stacked on top of each other and all W.C. many died in transport and at the time most peeps didnt know how to look after them so most died with in a few years. This is very sad and i do not want to see any thingt like this again.
I have 8 torts my self 2 of which are customs siesures ( i am glad the peeps who tryed to get these in were caught). 2 are resues, the other 4 are offspring. Hermans breed very easy here (provided you wait till they are old enough).
I feel very strongly about not having W.C torts when there is no need.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

butter morph said:


> There are several of us older peeps who can remember back a few years when you could go down to the market and buy a tort for about 2 bob, the poor things were imported in bulk all stacked on top of each other and all W.C. many died in transport and at the time most peeps didnt know how to look after them so most died with in a few years. This is very sad and i do not want to see any thingt like this again.
> I have 8 torts my self 2 of which are customs siesures ( i am glad the peeps who tryed to get these in were caught). 2 are resues, the other 4 are offspring. Hermans breed very easy here (provided you wait till they are old enough).
> I feel very strongly about not having W.C torts when there is no need.


Just out of interest to try and gauge then - do you feel the same about imported lizards and snakes?

It's not the not liking WC torts i don't understand - that makes perfect sense to me. It's the fact that often people don't like WC torts but are fine with WC everything else!


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## Paul Chase (Mar 7, 2007)

I know that to have C.B at one time there must of been W.C in there breeding. But once you get breeding going well then stop importing (selling) W.C of any species, theres no need. So if the prices may be higher and there are fewer in the shops, this can only encourage more peeps to try and breed them.


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## wizzasmum (Mar 6, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> The whole wild caught thing is exadurated.
> 
> After some research, i have found the main sources of the WC tort "propergander" to be 2/3 breeders (NO NAMES) who constantly condemn pet shops and other sources as an "inferior" product, to boost thier own sales.
> 
> ...


Is there a spell check on here - I'm knackered now?


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## wizzasmum (Mar 6, 2006)

Athravan said:


> Just out of interest to try and gauge then - do you feel the same about imported lizards and snakes?
> 
> It's not the not liking WC torts i don't understand - that makes perfect sense to me. It's the fact that often people don't like WC torts but are fine with WC everything else!


 
Well I for one, am not fine with wild caught anything, unless it is of the human variety :lol2:


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## wizzasmum (Mar 6, 2006)

andyj5447 said:


> Wow some people have too much time on their hands!:lol2:


You can say that again. Doesn't surprise me though


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## wizzasmum (Mar 6, 2006)

butter morph said:


> I know that to have C.B at one time there must of been W.C in there breeding. But once you get breeding going well then stop importing (selling) W.C of any species, theres no need. So if the prices may be higher and there are fewer in the shops, this can only encourage more peeps to try and breed them.


But the prices are not higher they are lower. Shops buy at ridiculously low prices and then sell for well over £100 usually nearer £200


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## nicky (Jul 13, 2005)

i do not avocate wc anything all my T's have been brought on from slings all bought from freinds that breed them, but i can also see the need for initial wc to produce cb in some areas of the hobby......the one thing i never understand about tortoises (mine by the way is a rescue)so could'nt tell you what he is as rspca have no details on him ) is people moan about wc in shops but as there are not any breeders prepared to stock shops where else are they going to get them from? as said i myself would never buy a wc tort, but surely if the breeders and shops were to get together instead of always getting at each other we could come up with some kind of solution...shops will never stop selling them so it must be for the torts benefit to come together.. this is not a slight on anyone just an observasion..


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