# Primate Sales please help



## BEMA (Jul 15, 2012)

BEMA would like to know what the general view is, with regard to primate sales.

We realise that some would call for a ban on Internet sales but how would you, as an exotic mammal enthusiast, feel about seeing a primate code of practice/guidelines being attached to each and every primate advert as a matter of course?

Could this be a middle ground?

There is plenty of negative discussion attached to people's sometimes ignorant posts and adverts but here is a chance for a mature discussion on the subject!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I think a complete ban on sales is unrealistic....if they don't advertise them on here, then they'll go on gumtree or whatever. And I stand by my prediction of a couple of weeks back that primates sales (particularly marmosets) are going to increase dramatically.

Guidelines and education (friendly education rather than screaming and shouting - of which we have *all* been guilty at some point) is definitely the way forward:2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Monotoring internet sales to make sellers adhere to basic ethics that are already
in place.
Selling too young.
Selling to be kept alone.

Why breed any animal and require the need for the internet to move on.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Monotoring internet sales to make sellers adhere to basic ethics that are already
> in place.
> Selling too young.
> Selling to be kept alone.
> ...


The problem is, there's no real way to stop people doing just that. But there are ways to make it a bit more difficult.
It's easier on forums, people can just jump onto threads and put their two pence worth in, buthow do you think *classifieds websites* could better monitor primate adverts?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

That i cant answer.
But i do know for a fact.
That its being worked on as we speak.
On behalf of primate keepers.

Its where the bad publicity comes from.
Theres even people on here that kept and sold on when weaned.

The information is there.
But its not law.

Down to individuals choice.
Sickening as the poor monkeys dont have a say.

But ive gave an opiniin enough on this matter to be quite honest.
But i cant help being passionate about what we do.

One thing i will say is
The good ones stick together...


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> One thing i will say is
> The good ones stick together...


Genuine question here....not trying to wind things up, honest.

Seems that the circle of responsible monkey breeders is, as you say, very close knit. I've seen it said that they only really sell to other responsible monkey breeders and don't really advertise on websites.

But could that be part of the problem? Does it not leave the market wide open for shifty sellers to court custom from idiots that want a single baby monkey to dress up and feed chips and lollipops to?

Just wondered, that's all.:2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

I would say your correct.
But make it law and not guidelines.
Youd still get it going on but it would cut it down.

Yes folk say private and closed circle.
Its not that hard to get into with time.
But i guess proving your for the monkeys and not money etc.

We were along time ago approached for a baby.
I guess we gave the correct answer and the door slowly oppened.
Mostly by word of mouth.
Like ive said befire we exchange blood.
Always(most of the time) already have plans made for thinning down.

All keep troops and only thin out when its needed.

Its like all animals Cris.
Some keep and breed etc.
And some just have them.
Then the wanga bunch...

Hope this makes sence..


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

With that in mind, Peter, do you think perhaps it is unwise to keep primates unless you are willing (and able) to build and care for a troop? Or is it possible, and humane, to keep only a pair or trio, and keep it that way?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Some cases end up that way.
They dont all breed.
Took my argenttata argenttata nearly five years.
But they come here to stay.
Some would move on...

They could have just one birth then no more.
So you could have mum dad and single.

But i dont agree with having pair etc as pet.
They are not good pets.

Guess to some it up is yes pairs or trio but down to circumstance.
Not because thats what they want.

Not meening to sound bad but isnt this post about net sales.
Not housing..lol

Cris..
Where are these sales increases going to come from.
Even commons are there but nobody parting with them.


Unless of coarse its really needed.

Just curious mate as maybe you know summit i dont..


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks.
The reason I asked is because it ties in with where the internet sales come from in the first place. People who have a male/female pair, who then breed, then offspring is sold (often too young). Just wondered what is best for the monkeys - letting offspring stay with parents until next is born , then selling on OR whether it is best to let them build a family group and not sell on at all unless absolutely necessary. 
Not being a primate owner myself, I only know the very basics like the need for carrying experience etc. Hope this makes sense.

I wonder whether anyone else has any thoughts? You don't need to own primates yourself to have an opinion... :2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Yea kind of.
But experiance and knowledge wins over opinions all the time.
In my opinion.

Rule of thumb is carried twice.
Which would make minimum age of a year.

But we preffer more....
More time the better...

Your now starting to understand the root problem.

Those that have
Those that keep...

Few and far between.


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## Copper (Jul 25, 2012)

Primates scare me, smaller primates like Capuchin monkeys may make ok pets but when people start buying the larger primates they are putting their self and others at risk. I don't think they should be pets at all unless you have a permit combined with the correct facility to house them.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Cris..
> Where are these sales increases going to come from.
> Even commons are there but nobody parting with them.
> 
> ...


Just from knowing various pet shops that stock them and that they don't stay in there for long until they're sold and replaced.
Now I'm not saying I approve of them being stocked in pet shops at all, but it's just a fact of life right now. And as a ban on that seems kind of unrealistic at the moment, I reckoned that stricter guidelines on sales might be easier to impose. Thought that was in BEMA's policies when it was conceived though.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> Just from knowing various pet shops that stock them and that they don't stay in there for long until they're sold and replaced.
> Now I'm not saying I approve of them being stocked in pet shops at all, but it's just a fact of life right now. And as a ban on that seems kind of unrealistic at the moment, I reckoned that stricter guidelines on sales might be easier to impose. *Thought that was in BEMA's policies when it was conceived though*.


It is. Hence why Caroline invited people to discuss the issue of sales. 

I personally don't agree with the sale of primates in pet shops but I can see how some people believe it's better (at least) than internet sales.

Peter, you mentioned that some sort of policing or changes to classifieds ads were 'being worked on' - could you elaborate on this? Via PM if you prefer.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

K


5plusmany said:


> It is. Hence why Caroline invited people to discuss the issue of sales.
> 
> I personally don't agree with the sale of primates in pet shops but I can see how some people believe it's better (at least) than internet sales.
> 
> Peter, you mentioned that some sort of policing or changes to classifieds ads were 'being worked on' - could you elaborate on this? Via PM if you prefer.


Pet shop sales are just as bad.
Agree with mrs cronin on that.
Stop it altogether.
Over priced and much more issurs.
Get in on here with exotic suppliers.(brokrrs i guess)
Was only short while ago two at six months of age..
Its another way of where to get rid..

With the work on monitoring internet and clasified sales i cant discuss.
Even by pm.

Like i said earlier 
There are people who work with keepers and work with them.
Which im sorry.
In my opiniin is better.
Rather than basing guidelines on opinions of people who dont keep.
Or who does have s pair as so called pets.

Like discussions before.
Many think its ok indoors in correct coditions.
Like some univercities etc do.

I think if you cant give whst they need.
Then dont keep them.

Thats just my opinion and that of most who i know...
But i do think that every little bit helps.

Dont meen to sound negative.
But its my opinion.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Call it a hunch, but I reckon the government would be more inclined to ban the private keeping of primates altogether before they ban it in only pet shops. Maybe I'm wrong, but i think that public pressure following those documentaries and news items about badly kept animals, along with Monkey World's and the animal right's input stands more chance of the forcing a complete ban rather than a selective one saying it's ok for some people to breed and sell them and not for others. After all, that would be harder and more costly to police, surely?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

The politics in banning is complicated.

Im 100% comfortable it will never hapn.
Sat in a few debates where it was tried.
Shot out.

They need to stop where the root of the bad press comes from.
We all when love animals and decide to keep captive bread species 
want whats best for them.
And this should nclude miving on..
Alot want monkeys cris.
Then when they expeiance how bad they can be.
Just by being monkeys.
They get rid.
And some hit the oress.

It was as bad when we started.
But they are working on it..
Even cronin realizes the bigger end of the problem
As she says.
The pet trade...


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## Kiel (Aug 20, 2009)

Don't ban it, make it DWAL. If zebras require licenses i'd say primates should. Responsible owners wouldn't have an issue with it i'm sure, irresponsible ones would (i'd think) have a tough time hiding the monkies in their garden or house.

I'm sure people would yell about councils just trying to make money, but it would require an inspection of the housing at the very least and that has to be worth it.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Kiel said:


> Don't ban it, make it DWAL. If zebras require licenses i'd say primates should. Responsible owners wouldn't have an issue with it i'm sure, irresponsible ones would (i'd think) have a tough time hiding the monkies in their garden or house.
> 
> I'm sure people would yell about councils just trying to make money, but it would require an inspection of the housing at the very least and that has to be worth it.


Good point.
I guess all dwa primares in captivity have required licence.
No they dont.

But that would work if they improved it.
Maybe protect all with a10.

But even thats not 100%.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Some primates already fall under DWA legislation, and I agree that putting all under that category I imagine would be a simpler process than implementing some sort of ban or alternative regulation system.
However, I'm not sure that could happen as (a) when the DWAL was last reviewed and adjusted, a number of animals were taken OFF the list because they simply couldn't be classified as 'dangerous' - so would marmosets, for example, be classified as such? And (b) even if that were to happen, it would take some time to be implemented - what with consultations, reports etc etc. 
What we (BEMA) are looking at is how we can educate people better and possibly reduce sales of primates (most particularly, young animals and those destined for a life of solitude) NOW. 
Now lets say we get hold of a bunch of classified website owners and ask that they attach some information to all primate ads posted on their sites.. what information do we want to include? Any sites that are particularly 'bad' for primate advertising? Or any other thoughts about how monkeys are sold generally?


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Good point.
> I guess all dwa primares in captivity have required licence.
> No they dont.
> 
> ...


Yes, thats the other problem - DWAL doesn't work as intended. Nowhere near.


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## Kiel (Aug 20, 2009)

it doesn't work 100% sure, but it beats the current way which would be...err...nothing.

We have the regs in place to use the DWAL system as we should, perhaps someone should reform it to the...WAL and include species that are exceptionally difficult to care for as well as ones that are dangerous. I think they've tried to go under the bar with it up to now and if they pushed it harder, made the penalties higher, standardise the fee.

If I try to adopt a puppy from a rescue, they send someone round to my house, how hard is that do implement? I think right now a lot of people that 'could' get DWA don't do it because they can't be :censor: with the paperwork, make it as easy as they can to apply for the license whilst keeping the same strict requirements for care and we'd be on to a winner.

My driving license costs the same no matter where in the country I live, why shouldn't a DWAL?


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Some excellent points made, but back to the original topic of conversation....:whistling2:
*What are the main points regarding primate care and welfare, that you think all potential keepers should be made aware of?*


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

NOT to be kept singular,NOT to be kept in parrot cages,natural sunlight.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

5plusmany said:


> Some excellent points made, but back to the original topic of conversation....:whistling2:
> *What are the main points regarding primate care and welfare, that you think all potential keepers should be made aware of?*


Topic---PRIMATE SALES PLEASE HELP...??
Or am i missing something.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The Dangerous Wild Animals Act is not appropriate for smaller primates, which is why many were removed - the principle purpose of the DWAA is protection of the public. This was recently discussed during an interview for BBC Wildlife Magazine, not sure when its out but it looks at the issue of private primate keeping.

As I understand it another one of these ill-informed, do-gooding, gullible MP’s is to push yet again for a ban. The really is such a ban is highly unlikely ever to happen and such campaigns are really only about generating publicity for the MP and money for the organisation behind it! They do nothing constructive to benefit the welfare of the animals!!

The reality is we have all the legislation needed to ensure the welfare of primates kept by private keepers. What we lack is responsible enforcement of the legislation and it would be good to see keepers looking to effective self regulation as a way forward.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> What we lack is responsible enforcement of the legislation and it would be good to see keepers looking to effective self regulation as a way forward.


Support is there in theory - however so very few keepers are actually taking *action* to make self regulation a reality, that the small team we have are taking longer than we had hoped to be able to offer this option to the exotic mammal community.

That said, the dedicated few are paving the way as we speak and the accreditation scheme is already evolving into a mentorship programme so that novice keepers have a very real way of starting off on the right foot.

As with any leap forward, people will naturally be slow to commit.
Tis a fact of life.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> Support is there in theory - however so very few keepers are actually taking *action* to make self regulation a reality, that the small team we have are taking longer than we had hoped to be able to offer this option to the exotic mammal community.
> 
> That said, the dedicated few are paving the way as we speak and the accreditation scheme is already evolving into a mentorship programme so that novice keepers have a very real way of starting off on the right foot.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately these things don’t happen overnight it always takes, much, much longer then you would ever expect or hope: the bottom-line is perseverance!

Government is very keen on self regulation and it is undoubtedly the way forward, but it is not an easy task and one of the fundamental problems is what you need is the one thing you will not get, and that is direct help/support from government. Government need to step in and support such initiatives, but rarely do. 

What is required is a starting point, an objective that is achievable. The title of this thread is “primate sales”, so perhaps an objective would be to produce a voluntary code of practice [CoP] for selling primates? That would sit very nicely next to the Defra CoP for primates.

Once you have a CoP for primate sales the next step is to get such a CoP endorsed! It is unlikely in the early stage you will get any formal government support, however, endorsement by an ‘recognised body’… I don’t wish to go into much detail on an open forum but have a quick look at this website http://paag.org.uk/


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Thank you Chris, that link is very useful.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> Unfortunately these things don’t happen overnight it always takes, much, much longer then you would ever expect or hope: the bottom-line is perseverance!
> 
> Government is very keen on self regulation and it is undoubtedly the way forward, but it is not an easy task and one of the fundamental problems is what you need is the one thing you will not get, and that is direct help/support from government. Government need to step in and support such initiatives, but rarely do.
> 
> ...


Chris,

Self Regulation is exactly the direction we are trying to head with BEMA. Primate sales is, obviously, one small area in a very large topic covering exotic mammals, but it is one we are keen to get right from the start, hence this informal thread.
The experts in the field are those who keep, and CoPs should ultimately be created from their experiences and knowledge.
Endorsement will be our biggest challenge, we will need the credibility to get someone to assist. This is something we are actively working on, and, in my opinion, seem to be making some headway with.
To keep it from the open forum, Chris, may I contact you via email to discuss the endorsement by 'recognised bodies'? 


With regards the 'internet sales' issue, and some of the things said by Peter, I'd like to express my own opinion (not necessarily that of BEMA).

I feel that, if Peters view is that of the more knowledgable and experienced Primate keepers, then it is a bit worrying.

If Primate keepers remain so insular and negative towards 'newbies' then they will drive more people towards the irresponsible keepers, who are happy to sell to anyone, giving duff advice about single keeping and diets, etc. What is needed, is an open approach to keeping. New members should be encouraged to meet with existing keepers, to learn exactly what it is like to keep primates.

As Pouchie has mentioned, a Mentorship has been discussed in BEMA, and I personally think it is a great idea and could do a lot to dispel some of the myths and irresponsible owners. Caveats should be encouraged on classifieds sites, but a complete ban would be impossible and, in my eyes, counterproductive.

Hopefully, none of my colleagues think I have spoken out of turn here, however they are just my opinions.

Tarron


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

I think you have all my contact details so please feel free to contact me directly, that is never an issue. Just be aware that I am not always the most responsive person when it comes to responding to emails, so nagging by phone is always far more effective!

Self regulation is in my view the way forward, but it is a protracted goal…. I have been working on issues for more then two decades before you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. 




Tarron said:


> Chris,
> 
> Self Regulation is exactly the direction we are trying to head with BEMA. Primate sales is, obviously, one small area in a very large topic covering exotic mammals, but it is one we are keen to get right from the start, hence this informal thread.
> The experts in the field are those who keep, and CoPs should ultimately be created from their experiences and knowledge.
> ...


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> I think you have all my contact details so please feel free to contact me directly, that is never an issue. Just be aware that I am not always the most responsive person when it comes to responding to emails, so nagging by phone is always far more effective!
> 
> Self regulation is in my view the way forward, but it is a protracted goal…. I have been working on issues for more then two decades before you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel.


I have indeed got your details. I'll get in touch as soon as my wife stops swanning off in London, leaving me with the kids, lol

It is a long road ahead, I think we are all aware of that, but every road has a starting point.

Thanks Chris


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Tarron said:


> Chris,
> 
> Self Regulation is exactly the direction we are trying to head with BEMA. Primate sales is, obviously, one small area in a very large topic covering exotic mammals, but it is one we are keen to get right from the start, hence this informal thread.
> The experts in the field are those who keep, and CoPs should ultimately be created from their experiences and knowledge.
> ...


Hi there Tarron,
Im a bit confused by your comments with regard to being worried?
Primate keepers being insular.
NOT HELPING NEWBIES.

As i stated there are many who are helped.
I for one have gave an answer to any question asked.
Have had private discussions with many on here with any problems they have.

Even when as i call it.
The wrong type.

Also it seems very contradictive too say that thats why they need to go to the untrustworthy ones.
Sell to be kept in cages and on there own.

We all agree that that is the root of the problem.
So stamp them out by whatever methods are needed.
None of the keepers i know would ever dream of getting involved with breeders of this type.
I have said before all i know can be approached.
All i know talk about nothing other than the pressent and the future of here primates.
With whoever has an open ear.
But asking to buy a monkey a weak after meeting would be wrong.
I for one see nothing wrong in this 
as the ones that stick it out end up going about it in the proper manner.
If i moved house tomorrow and hadnt the area i have at the momment.
A drying green for example.
I give the hobby up.
Dont think its proper to not let them have fresh air or natural light.
Its in my opinion a hobby that you need to commit to.
Need to have the primates needs first and foremost.
But manny are to ready to hit the same old story.
Its the best i can do for now.

I dont think its fair for keepers that do there own thing and go about there own buisiness to be shot down for what they believe in.
It can take time to get to them as said before.
I have made a good collegue on here.
A guy very serious about his monkeys.
Wanting to ask about his monkeys whenever he can.
I speak about him to my other friends.
Its conversation at first.
But after a while they too can understand.
Then when opertunity arises they are introduced.
If you were invited to visit me.
Would it be proper to come back with a friend who i didnt know.
Its only a hard circle to break as its normal people.
Who are happy the way things are.
I differ a little as i think people should have somewhere to turn to.
But i only know my way.
And i guess i started somewhere as well..


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> That i cant answer.
> But i do know for a fact.
> That its being worked on as we speak.
> On behalf of primate keepers.
> ...


I dont think anyone would doubt your experience and knowledge Peter.

What I was trying to say was, as an outsider I have viewed primate discussions before, just out of interest. And from my POV, it appears that if your not in the 'In' crowd, there is no point in mentioning anything as you will get shot down.

Yes, you can hustle your way in, and once you're there, I'm sure it is a brilliant experience, a great bunch of dedicated people. However, there are plenty of people who would struggle to get 'In' regardless of how great a keeper they would make.

Their reasons for struggling may be varied, even so much as just being a bit daunted, but they could still be brilliant keepers.
If they can't easily get 'In' then the next option is a less scrupulous keeper, the ones with bad advice, and low ethics.

Maybe, all that is needed is for, either the group to widen a little to let others see in, or for someone to introduce them to the group, a 'soft release' if you will.

Peter, If BEMA were to get a mentorship off the ground, would you and your colleagues be willing to put your names down on a list, so that if BEMA is approached by interested people, we could direct them to the nearest keeper.
General thoughts seem to be centred around a simple email exchange that would gradually build up. Possibly to inviting them round for a view of the primates, some really hands on experience before they make a purchase?

Or is that something that wouldn't appeal to keepers?

Again, I never wished to offend you, or anyone. As a non Primate keeper, I was merely trying to give an outsiders objective point of view.

:no1:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

A woman spoke to me work today and told me of a friend of hers that very recently bought a capuchin and is keeping it in a cage in her living room. As such, she has kind of fallen out with the friend because she doesn't agree with it. 

I can't imagine they'll hold a DWA license as that accommodation surely wouldn't have passed the inspection? 

Very sad. And it just goes to show how very easy it is to get them.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> A woman spoke to me work today and told me of a friend of hers that very recently bought a capuchin and is keeping it in a cage in her living room. As such, she has kind of fallen out with the friend because she doesn't agree with it.
> 
> I can't imagine they'll hold a DWA license as that accommodation surely wouldn't have passed the inspection?
> 
> Very sad. And it just goes to show how very easy it is to get them.


Disgraceful, and I think everyone, no matter their opinion, would agree that needs stamping out.

What I would say is, it needs more people, like the woman at your work, to report this kind of thing. give the authorities the information to start prosecuting these kinds of keepers. Once they have the keeper, they _should_ IMO trace the seller and prosecute them too.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

Then i am sorry but her friend has to do the right thing and tell the authorities ,to save the welfare of the capuchin ,otherwise the friend is just as bad as the owner

they wont prosecute the seller not up to the seller to make sure they have the licence ,but the buyer to have the relavent licence ,this is where the law is wrong


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tarron said:


> Disgraceful, and I think everyone, no matter their opinion, would agree that needs stamping out.
> 
> What I would say is, it needs more people, like the woman at your work, to report this kind of thing. give the authorities the information to start prosecuting these kinds of keepers. Once they have the keeper, they _should_ IMO trace the seller and prosecute them too.


Tbh, as much as i thought that, I couldn't suggest that to her because i was at work and it wouldn't have been professional.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

animalsbeebee said:


> Then i am sorry but her friend has to do the right thing and tell the authorities ,to save the welfare of the capuchin ,otherwise the friend is just as bad as the owner
> 
> they wont prosecute the seller not up to the seller to make sure they have the licence ,but the buyer to have the relavent licence ,this is where the law is wrong


The way I see it, whether or not the license holds up, the seller should be prosecuted for putting the capuchin in to a position where it would be mistreated, and kept in contravention of the Animal Welfare Act, i.e. No Social interaction, inadequate housing, etc.

That is an opinion though, I'm sure the law wouldn't work like that.



mrcriss said:


> Tbh, as much as i thought that, I couldn't suggest that to her because i was at work and it wouldn't have been professional.


I can understand your predicament, but she really does need to inform someone. Was this a customer or something, not a colleague?

If so, the moment has passed and we can only hope they do the right thing and report the keeper.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tarron said:


> I can understand your predicament, but she really does need to inform someone. Was this a customer or something, not a colleague?
> 
> If so, the moment has passed and we can only hope they do the right thing and report the keeper.



She's not really a colleague, but she works sort of at the same place I do.....not that I ever really see her. Without saying too much, it's just a delicate situation and wouldn't be appropriate for me to say anything, that's all.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Maybe you could bypass speaking to the lady if the situation is too difficult and report to the local authority who can then at least check their DWAL holders. If the keeper is not licensed they will have to investigate further.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> Then i am sorry but her friend has to do the right thing and tell the authorities ,to save the welfare of the capuchin ,otherwise the friend is just as bad as the owner
> 
> they wont prosecute the seller not up to the seller to make sure they have the licence ,but the buyer to have the relavent licence ,this is where the law is wrong


They could get the seller Dave.
Wouldnt think anything would be in order.
Even no mivrochip is down to both parties.
I thought they changed the law?
I know of a guy that got donr for selling and not all in order.
Although he counter sued Defra and won his case..
These were lemurd.
Other A10 species as well.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Tarron said:


> I dont think anyone would doubt your experience and knowledge Peter.
> 
> What I was trying to say was, as an outsider I have viewed primate discussions before, just out of interest. And from my POV, it appears that if your not in the 'In' crowd, there is no point in mentioning anything as you will get shot down.
> 
> ...


It already happens through the forums.
Ss said theres lots already contact.
But getting involved with bema should be an individuals choice.
As said prior ..not for me.
But emails and calls already happen.

Really glad Cris has input though.
Knows what hes talking about.
Works with primate keepers.
Not just an exotic keeper with an opinion.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Pouchie said:


> Maybe you could bypass speaking to the lady if the situation is too difficult and report to the local authority who can then at least check their DWAL holders. If the keeper is not licensed they will have to investigate further.


Not such a bad idea, if I knew where in the country the monkey was. All I got was the basic story made in passing conversation. So sadly this one will fall through the cracks (possibly until they need to take it to a vet).

I only mentioned this really to illustrate the ease with which people lay their hands on them, and that the world doesn't begin and end with internet forums. The guidelines drawn up by BEMA will make very little impact if they're only limited to places like RFUK/EKF etc


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

mrcriss said:


> Not such a bad idea, if I knew where in the country the monkey was. All I got was the basic story made in passing conversation. So sadly this one will fall through the cracks (possibly until they need to take it to a vet).
> 
> I only mentioned this really to illustrate the ease with which people lay their hands on them, and that the world doesn't begin and end with internet forums. The guidelines drawn up by BEMA will make very little impact if they're only limited to places like RFUK/EKF etc


A vet wouldnt ask for paperwork or anything about it.
Or report it.
There concerns the health.
I asked once.
Was told that nobody would bring sick animals.
Thats my vets opiniin on it.
Can see his point though.
That was a marmie with calci probs.
Lady said shed know to use d3 and uv next time.
And shed concider 2 for company.
But shed need bigger cage.
Same old cris.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> They could get the seller Dave.
> Wouldnt think anything would be in order.
> Even no mivrochip is down to both parties.
> I thought they changed the law?
> ...


There is no legal requirement under the DWAA for the vendor to ensure the purchaser is licensed under the aforementioned Act.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Thats why i mentioned the paperwork side Cris.
These animals had no chip inserted.
So they got the seller on that.
Fact.
I was even sent copy of coart report from seller who was charged and fined.
As he was adament it was an ERROR.lol
So i guess maybe under Dwa thrres nought.
But they can use loophole to procicute.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Thats why i mentioned the paperwork side Cris.
> These animals had no chip inserted.
> So they got the seller on that.
> Fact.
> ...


Capuchin’s do not need to be chipped to the best of my knowledge?


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Really glad Cris has input though.
> Knows what hes talking about.
> Works with primate keepers.
> Not just an exotic keeper with an opinion.


This is a disgusting attitude to have Peter.

SOMEONE has got to DO something contructive to improve standards in this hobby.

Are you saying that because I am 'just another exotics keepers' and not a PRIMATE keeper, that I cannot invite our community to join forces???

You are missing an incredibly vital factor about BEMA. You are treating it as a dictatorship. That is not the idea of the organisation at all! 
It is an organisation representing keepers and is open to all to make the improvements TOGETHER. 

If you choose not to operate in the same way as those keepers who use BEMA as a tool to improve standards, you will simply die out with the old school. As time goes on, more and more keepers will operate within this idea of self regulation and the old school will remain as you are now. Discussing what the government might do next and complaining about how things are whilst watching others progress forward.

If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> I only mentioned this really to illustrate the ease with which people lay their hands on them, and that the world doesn't begin and end with internet forums. *The guidelines drawn up by BEMA will make very little impact if they're only limited to places like RFUK/EKF etc*


Definitely not limited to forums, we are looking at a number of ways to educate potential buyers. Including offline in the 'real world' too! Lol. 
The reason we wanted a discussion on internet sales is to get others' ideas about the best ways to discourage unscrupulous sellers and better educate those viewing such ads. For example, online publishers could be displaying prominent messages next to ads for primates, much like some already give advice for buying puppies and kittens.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Agreed. With regard to Internet sales - I think the added danger is that sellers can remain fairly anonymous and arrange sales of animals which they can deliver or courier without ever allowing buyers to come anywhere near their address or witness their setups.

Much more difficult, when trading in the traditional way, to be so unidentifiable!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> Capuchin’s do not need to be chipped to the best of my knowledge?


Yip 100% cris.
Would need to be A10 requiring a dwa to get seller.
Lemurs..
Cant think off hand of any others.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

:censor:


Pouchie said:


> This is a disgusting attitude to have Peter.
> 
> SOMEONE has got to DO something contructive to improve standards in this hobby.
> 
> ...


Likewise Caroline.
Disgusting that you should put rubbish like this on open forum.
You dont know me or what i do.
Just because i dont want involved with BEMA it doesnt make me a dinossur.
How do you know that myself and others do nothing.

I said in earlier post that a group of non keepers would have decision.
Committee etc.

Ive had manny discussions on forums and alot of opinions are based on other animals.

I keep only primates.
Have done for alot of years.

But old fassioned im not.

My comment about cris
I appaulagise.
Not meant to be a bad point at BEMA.
Any effort is good.
But you are the one judging.
And having a personal attack st me.
But trust me.
My scottish shoulders are broad...
I do wish you and all othrrs all the best..
Rant over.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> :censor:
> 
> Likewise Caroline.
> Disgusting that you should put rubbish like this on open forum.
> ...


 

It is a case of support Peter. Whatever you have chosen to do, such as offering your advice to people over the Internet, I have supported.

It does not offend me that you do not wish to join the association. However it would be nice to feel a bit more support from other groups when, lets face it, our goals are exactly the same. 

No I don't keep primates and I don't wish to but if I can help to improve the welfare, then I want to - in the same way I want to improve the standards for the many species I have and 'do' keep. 

Primates are a fairly small sector of the mammals kept but they need all the help they can get, surely. Just today BEMA has tackled a case of a primate being offered for sale, born in May, can live in an indoor or outdoor cage and will make an 'excellent pet'. 1 boy remaining...
My thoughts are with this chap and his sibling(s) already sold.

I apologise for causing you offence Peter, I mean that sincerely. Our methods may be different but we are trying to achieve the same.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Pouchie said:


> It is a case of support Peter. Whatever you have chosen to do, such as offering your advice to people over the Internet, I have supported.
> 
> It does not offend me that you do not wish to join the association. However it would be nice to feel a bit more support from other groups when, lets face it, our goals are exactly the same.
> 
> ...


Caroline
I personnaly would support when i could.
Time is a factor.

Thats the reason i wouldnt join fully and i know i couldnt give 100%.
Between over 50 monkeys hand rearing mucking out etc iits always busy.
I do know your thoughts as anytime an odd add came in.
When contacted you acted on it..
But i must agree it is a vast improvement to rfuk.
As this forum as others has been guilty in the past for a starting point for wrong sellers.
Comment not meant in a bad way.
As said vast improvement
.


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