# Clutch headache. Most likely sire?



## SpiritSerpents (Mar 20, 2011)

Mystery clutch time! Who is the father? The almost-sunglow or the anery-ish-thingy?

The players: 

Torandre - female ghost het amel










Dier - sunglow-ish












Vanay - Some-sort-of-anerythristic-thingy














Dier got first dibs with Tor, because Vanay was being shy at the beginning of the season. I was given 15 beautiful eggs in that clutch, that pipped out predominantly amel-in-some-form (11 out of 15!) and some aneries. No normals. A little odd, considering, but it happens. 

Now, last year when Tor double clutched without being re-bred, she gave me 10 duds. This year, I bred her after her post-lay shed to Vanay, the anery-something-or-other, multiple times. I was given 10 eminently fertile eggs. These eggs are now pipping.

Five pips in, and I have two hypos, two normals, and an amel.

The normals:










One of the hypos:










And the other-hypo:











Is Dier the father, and the hypo was hidden amidst all his many many amel offspring?

Is Vanay the father, and proving himself to NOT be an anery-charcoal like I had suspected?

No matter what, Vanay is being paired with Tor again next year, to figure this whole thing out. O_<


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Are these corn snakes? Many corn snake sunglows are simply selectively bred amelanistic, without hypo.

Dier is the more likely sire of the amelanistics. But I don't see any way to exclude either male for sure. The sire could be Dier or Vanay. Or some eggs could have been sired by Vanay and some by Dier.


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## SpiritSerpents (Mar 20, 2011)

I know for sure that Dier is "just" an amel, and not a hypo-amel thanks to the first clutch. First clutch was 7 amels, 4 snows, 4 aneries. 

Now, for the het hypo, if it's from Dier, was it expressed at all in the first clutch and is simply hidden amongst the 11 animals homozygous for amelanism and thus invisible?

Tor is, of course, het amel. If Vanay is indeed "just" a charcoal and not an anery-charcoal, he could easily be het amel and hypo, and that would explain these results as well.

I am however, currently leaning towards Dier, as the total now stands at 2 hypos, 3 normals, and 4 amels with one egg left to pip. I know that Dier is het anery, so I should have had some aneries, or even a snow, but then again I managed to have 15 eggs hatch out no normals at all.


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## cree (Jan 21, 2010)

Vanay looks alot like our Cinder!


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## cree (Jan 21, 2010)

SpiritSerpents said:


> I know for sure that Dier is "just" an amel, and not a hypo-amel thanks to the first clutch. First clutch was 7 amels, 4 snows, 4 aneries.
> 
> Now, for the het hypo, if it's from Dier, was it expressed at all in the first clutch and is simply hidden amongst the 11 animals homozygous for amelanism and thus invisible?
> 
> ...


Could Vanay be a Phantom aka Hypo Charcoal ht amel???


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## SpiritSerpents (Mar 20, 2011)

If Vanay was the sire of clutch #2, then it would prove he wasn't a phantom.

The final tally on this clutch was:

2 normals
3 hypos
5 amels.


Now, logically this points more to Dier being the sire, what with the preponderance of amels. But then one must note the lack of aneries, despite Dier being proven het anery in clutch one.

Also of note is the fact that neither Dier nor Torandre show any sign of the masque trait, yet a couple of clutch 2 have split belly checkers, and one amel even has the 'devil skull' head pattern associated with masque.

You can't see it well in the photo I provided, but Vanay's head pattern is 'fractured'. He also has split belly checkers.

Vanay's head pattern:










Vanay's belly:











I will be taking pictures of the offspring as they complete their first sheds, and will post them here.


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## SpiritSerpents (Mar 20, 2011)

Some of the babies:

Hypo #1










Hypo #2










Hypo#3










Inferno (amel#2... Like the masque?):










More in the next reply.


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## SpiritSerpents (Mar 20, 2011)

And just a couple more. Both normals look pretty much identical to each other, head pattern wise. Kinda weird.


Normal#1:










Amel#1:










Baby piles!





















So, it seems to me to be likely now that Vanay is "just" a charcoal het hypo amel, rather than the anery-charcoal I had suspected him as. He doesn't really look like other charcoals though. Maybe he has some Upper Keys influence?

So, who do you think sired the clutch?


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## gigasnake (Oct 2, 2011)

I have nothing helpful to say about the father, but damn are they some gorgeous hatchlings you have there <3


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