# Muscle Spasms



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Okay, well this is getting a bit ridiculous now. 

One of my terribs has been having muscle spasms for the last couple of weeks. 

He seems perfectly happy, and hops and eats, but occasionally and almost invariably after a large motion or quick motion (i.e. striking for food) he spasms and flails for a second and then regains himself and carries on. 
Today i decided to separate him into a 30cm cube, and i have been watching him for the past half hour and it is the same. He jumps to try and climb out, he lands, spasms and gets up, looks about and carries on. This does not happen at every hop or when he is just standing still, only after he makes large movements, the worst is when he jumps into the glass or misses his target. he does "bob" when stood still, i don't know if this is natural?

I dust with repashy ca+ (4 months old) every feed, and Vit A+ which is 3 months old once a month. Neither of the others have the same issue. The only thing i can think of was when i was switching vivs, he went straight into hiding and i didnt see him for about 2weeks, and he is the smallest of the 3. He didnt come out for feeding, but i didnt want to disturb the tank looking for him, in the risk that i stress them too much. In this time i couldnt be how sure how much powder he was taking in, could he have developed problems form that? 

I cant imagine it is MBD, as i would surely see it in the whole group? and my leopard gecko for that matter. 

what do you guys think? another form of deficiency or maybe MBD from juvenile that has now manifested itself? 

help me out please people. 











ps. whilst writing this, i have been watching him move about his cube and i haven't witness it. could it be a stress/excited reaction?


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Muscle spasms seem to be a symptom of lots of different problems with dartfrogs, which makes offering advice difficult. It could be anything from excessive heat, dehydration, bacterial infection, toxic response, malnutrition, over-feeding or over supplementation (baring in mind you have ruled out under-supplementation). 

You also need to remember that frogs with big clutches would not see 100% survival of offspring in the wild, but this is what lots of hobbyists strive for. In the mix there will, inevitably, be individuals that are fundamentally weaker. 

In my opinion the best you can do is keep conditions stable, interfere as little as possible, make sure temperature and humidity are okay and make sure that they are fed a sensible amount - not too much. I lost an adult terribilis once and I actually don't think they are anywhere near as robust as their size and personality suggest!

Hope the frog recovers,

Nick


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I feed daily and supplement daily. do you think i should cut back the feeding or the supplements? I haven't got an age for them but i would guess 9months ootw. 

He doesn't look slim by any means, so i would rule out malnutrition. The viv gets misted at least once a day, and there is a drainage gully that they could use, so I think they are hydrated. 

I can't rule out bacterial, as different frogs react differently, so it could be that,

toxic? i would guess that they all would show symptoms. 

Excessive heat, no. Do they show heat stress from being subjected to cold temperatures? I measured the viv at 15oC (surface temperature) at 2am before, since then though i keep the windows and doors shut and the radiator warm, the peak is still only 20oC daytime dropping to 17oC at night. should i invest in an oil radiator?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

sorry to heat this,

this thing that pops right into my head is a Vit A problem.

Now, one of the signs of a A problems is in a similar way to Ca and D3 issues twitching and shaking.

Amphibs do seem susceptible to A deficiency but please factor in that an over supply of A or D will manifest In largely the same way as and undersupply.

This is not an issue if the compounds are sourced naturally i.e. D3 from exposure to the D3 cycle is safe and will be self regulated in the body and cannot be over produced whereas a synthetic or dietary form can build up to dangerous levels.

The same can be said for A. It seems very safe when derived from a source of beta carotene but can be over provided through non B.C powders.

just something to consider,

above all Good luck!

John


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

DrNick said:


> I lost an adult terribilis once and I actually don't think they are anywhere near as robust as their size and personality suggest!
> 
> 
> Nick


This quote could apply to me too.
And I agree with the comment 100%
I had one which was having fits and I took a video of it and showed it to someone who has forgotten more about dart frogs than I`ll ever know.
His reply on seeing the video was that he has seen this with Terribs before.
Makes you wonder.
But it won`t stop me keeping them, they`re awesome frogs.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Did yours make it or did it end up passing? I have found terribs to be very sensitive so far, like I have said, I wouldn't recommend them to beginners.

They are awesome though, and today I fed some micro crickets for the second time ever and you should have seen the feeding response. It was mental, one literally lept 15 cm up the background to catch one. With flies they seem to adopt the sit and wait method. I wish they were a bit more hardy.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Unfortunately Callum I lost it.
I have both Mints and Yellows here and although they are the same frog they act so differently.
The mints tend to sit around all day doing nothing.
The yellows all seem to be more active but largely sit about too.
Until feeding time.
Then it`s a case of lets see who can jump the highest as they try to get into the food tub.
It`s total mayhem and always gives us a good laugh.
The mints though.
You can chuck food into them and they just sit there looking.
To get a response you`ve to pretty much throw the food over them, and even then it`s like "oh here comes the food, I suppose I`d better go get some before they crawl away".


Mike


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Sorry to hear this Callum. Me and mike were still pondering about mine and suspected bacterial infection. I hope you get to the bottom of it. They are maybe not as bullet proof as some people say...

Your right about crickets. I fed mine 2nd instar yesterday for the first time as the flies are being slow and they went mental. Jumping on background to catch just like you said. 

Liam


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

The temps are at the low end, but should be fine. Young terribilis need feeding well to be sure and little and often is almost always the best way, but just be careful with quantity. Over feeding can kill frogs. If you are supplementing every feed and feeding every day, that is also a lot of supplement going into them - personally I would back it off... 

For context, my terribilis ADULTS are fed twice a week tops - often once a week depending on the look of them. They get Calcium plus every feed (but the feeds are less regular than yours) and Vitamin A plus very occasionally (once a month?) and in small amounts mixed with the usual supplement so that the 'hit' is not as acute. I have never seen any visible indication of nutrient defficiency in any of my frogs. I think over-doing it is probably more likely.

The spasming and lack of coordination can be symptoms of a bacterial infection - I have seen it in other hobbyist's frogs. But who knows. If you are happy that the viv conditions are optimal, there is probably nothing more you can do.

Nick


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I will back down the feeding then. 

If that doesn't work then i will have to think about clearing the bacterial infection, 

which means emptying the viv, binning everything that cannot be sterilized. disinfecting the viv and then seperating the frogs out into QT tubs and treating with meds? 

That includes all of my plants, the substrate, the background, the large piece of bog wood, the cork piece. probably mounting to about £150+

:censor::censor::censor:


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Well, don't go berserk just yet........ If the other two are okay in the viv and the dodgy one makes a recovery in QT, maybe tweak a few things and put it down to experience. 

It's probably quite rare to have a single cause for problems like this. IF it is an infection, and there is no way to know, there is nothing to say that the bacterial flora or levels in the viv are necessarily dangerous. It could be that particular frog was compromised in some way and succumbed to 'normal' bacterial exposure. It's often just a case of incremental changes and trying to learn from your mistakes (if you can figure out what they are!).

For the record the adult terrib I lost a couple of years ago did not present any symptoms at all - I just found it dead one morning. The other two that lived with it at the time are fine to this day - in the same viv.

If the environmental conditions in the viv are okay, the substrate smells fine, the feeding regime is adequate and there have been no toxic/pathogenic introductions I would be tempted to just hang on before waging war on the viv.

Out of curiosity, did you use any cleaning products on the plants/wood you introduced?

Nick


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

The substrate smells fresh, there is no smell coming from the viv. 


I haven't used any chemicals or products in the viv, and all plants have come from organic sources, no garden centre plants. 


Liam, when you made your abg, what charcoal did you use?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Calz,just wanted to say I hope things go well for him and you mate! BuddyI don't think you should be taring down yet either,not with two frogs doing well. But I do wonder what fecals might tell you on the affected frog,trouble is I don't know,if bacteria infections would show up or if this is potentially being caused by hypo/hyper vitiminosis whether that might show.Nick, do you know please?

Guys, I've never fed crix,would they have the potential to carry more vit dust than ff? With no experience of terribs or crickets,its difficult to be of much help.

I do tend to dust all my feeds of ff,plus only feed tiny babies almost daily,but largely our feeding regime is 2/3 times per week and some feeds are just springtails for said tiny frogs,undusted. 

But,my leanings are really towards something else,possibly bacterial. Terribilis seem more prone to problems in some ways,than some frogs,I've always wondered if there is merit in the fact that not having their skin toxins in captivity,might leave them possibly more vunerable than other species.

good luck 

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> I've always wondered if there is merit in the fact that not having their skin toxins in captivity,might leave them possibly more vunerable than other species.


There's a school of thought (that you are no doubt aware of) that one role of the toxic skin alkaloids, if not the primary role, is antimicrobial action rather than anti-predator defense. Personally I think there's probably a case to be made for that.

Regarding testing for bacterial infection. Possible, yes, if you know what you are looking for. But practically for a hobbyist, not really.

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification Nick

Stu


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi Callum,

I'm not at home right now. I'm at work. I can't remember the brand name off the top of my head but I would be very surprised if it was that as Ive been using the same stuff as Mike and hes been using it for a what I guess would be years. I'll double check it for you.

As to the behaviour of my frog. It was very random and I first noticed he was sitting in the water bowl and losing appetite . Which is symptoms for a few of these problems but I dont believe it was dehydration, but it also sounds a lot different to yours. The two which I lost were definitely always the under dogs of the group and I do sometimes wonder if it is just like Nick says with reference to 100% survival. It could have been my fault or it could have been any of the problems these symptoms point towards.

I guess we will never know for sure. All I could do is QT. Which I guess you should try before doing anything drastic with the viv. 

Believe me I know how you must feel about this, just fight through it bud.

Liam


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Can dart frogs be epileptic lol? 

I put the frog into isolation and had been observing him, watching him feed and gernerally hop about. He was fine, no spasms no problems at all. 

Last night I put him back in with the others and I fed them this morining. He goes back to spasming when striking bit it doesn't seem to bother him. 
It isn't because the lights? 

I am hesitant to say it is anything to do with the conditions of the viv or the contents, but when I move away from the bright lights he seems happy. 

Any ideas?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

None buddy but I will ask how big the viv is and what lights you have over the top for the hell of it.

good luck bro

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

plasma234 said:


> Can dart frogs be epileptic lol?


I seem to remember mentioning something along that lines to you already.
There definitely seems to be something in the viv that's triggering it.
You might be right in thinking that the lights are behind it all.
It could well be a form of epilepsy.

Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Yeh you did mike, i wouldn't have even thought of it without you mentioning it :notworthy:


Stu, the viv is 150cm x 50 x 50. it has four reflected 24w (2ft) T5HO lighting it. they are on a 9am - 8pm cycle. 

the lumen output of the lights is actually less than my old light set up. and these are flicker free arcadia starters.

hmmmm


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Might be flicker free starters Callum but fluorescent tubes flicker while on.
Most of the time it`s not noticeable, but it`s there.

Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

John? :lol2: 

Okay, so tomorrow i will leave the tubes off and put my new LED fixture over the top and see if what results i get. 

It will be mixed feelings if it is the tubes. Happy that it isn't something in the viv. Pissed off because that some expensive gear to replace :bash:

cheers mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I do apologise Callum.
I was just emailing John when I replied to your post as well.
There`s no need to replace the lights if they are the cause.
For one thing, if it is some form of epilepsy you might never come across it again and you can easily use the lights on another viv I`m sure.

Mike


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Mike have you ever noticed your terribs being sensitive to high light? Or have you ever had high lighting levels to begin with? Like we discussed I have changed a lot of things in the viv to finally have the terribs out and about but it sure could have been due to the led light I used before I removed it.

I don't know how bright these lights are of yours Callum but it's definitely made a difference. 

Liam


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

The lighting is pretty bright, about 6500lumens total. Which is a little bit less then the old lighting. 
The difference being is the old tank was very densely planted. I have planted a lot more broms and I have added thicker leaf litter, a couple of coco huts. I am thinking about planting some ficus scandens, to provide some cover on the back. 

It might be the bright lighting, it may be the fluorescent
It still may be bacterial. I can't tell you.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It was because of your bright lights that I asked you to change them around Liam.
But you went one step further and removed one.
I had one Terrib having fits a while back as I mentioned.
It was under 2 T5 lamps funnily enough.
All my Terribs are now under leds and no sign of any problems.


Mike


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

plasma234 said:


> The lighting is pretty bright, about 6500lumens total.


A rough measure, but that's still almost 3x the brightness of what I have over my terribs. Not saying it's the cause, but I can say that they do perfectly well with lower light.......

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

John,ahh I had to,:lol2: why I asked about what lights you are using is basically where Mike is steering you,do you have too much light for them? I don't keep billis I don't know if too bright can potentially give a frog fits/spasms but I use less light than you on all my vivs. I have to say if light is the cause of the problem I'd be amazed,but without being able to pin something such as,a week frog or a bacteria infection,I don't think pulling back on the lighting can do any harm,apart from to the plants,maybe.

I would also quizz the yanks Calz,we are limited in numbers here,it's always worth asking them because there are so many more there,someone might have seen this,or offer alternative thoughts

good luck anyway mate

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

It is a lot of lumens but spread over 5ft I am sure a lot of people use dual t5ho over 2ft tanks. Which would be brighter than what I have gone for. I will keep a couple of lights switched off for a while and see what I get. Luckily the dual starters have individual switches. So I can alternate which ones are on and off to limit plant loss.

I am sure in America I will have to strip it out, place in separate quarantine in separate rooms whilst taking fecals once a week and then treat, or cull. 
I will have to wait and see if this is what I am going to do. 

It sounds really bad, but because the viv is so massive it has a lot of stuff in it I am very reluctant to strip and sterilise. If I had a smaller viv I wouldn't hesitate. I know, I know I am a bad keeper, but I can't be flippant over a couple hundred quid tbh. If I can treat another way I will, if it comes to and I have to make the big decision to start fresh and sterilise then I will do that.


So it is dimmed lights tomorrow for a while and then I will go from there most probably separate all the frogs out into smaller sterile rubs and then bleach bath the broms and make fresh substrate, maybe just leca as a substrate as it is free draining and sterile.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Forget about sterilising Callum.
It would be a load of work and extra stress to the frogs and for what ?
You don`t even know that there is an infection or anything even remotely like it.
It`s only the one frog that has an issue and I`m guessing that if it was an infection your other frogs would be well down that rocky path by now.
Keep an eye on the frog and see how often it fits and when, ie when feeding it.
Then change the lighting and do the same checks again to see if it still happens.
Easy to do with no stress to the frogs and if it works your sorted.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

plasma234 said:


> It is a lot of lumens but spread over 5ft I am sure a lot of people use dual t5ho over 2ft tanks. Which would be brighter than what I have gone for. I will keep a couple of lights switched off for a while and see what I get. Luckily the dual starters have individual switches. So I can alternate which ones are on and off to limit plant loss.
> 
> I am sure in America I will have to strip it out, place in separate quarantine in separate rooms whilst taking fecals once a week and then treat, or cull.
> I will have to wait and see if this is what I am going to do.
> ...


Calz you ain't a bad keeper not on any level,you wouldn't be here talking about this,period nuff said.

We can take on board what they say,use it or no,it's OUR choice,two frogs perfectly fine.one not, doesn't add up to a viv strip down in my eyes,it's something to do with the individual for me,yeah maybe lights are a bit brighter than what I would use,or the good Dr or Mike,but if that was sole cause,surely all frogs would have problems. Dude fecals give results,but,what were, the two foremost yank vets don't really agree on how that should be treated,or if treatment might be necessary,on some issues. But use the knowledge mate 

Calz don't knock you're self on this you are doing the best you can. 

Quietly I had a long chat with Liam(hope you don't mind that mate),shit happens ,sometimes it seems one can't get away from it,I had a complete guts full early last year none of it ,looking back, really my doing. Did fecals,post mortem on one nowt really came to light,I just lost some froggy mates,and my dad for good measure

The point being dig deep and walk out the other side .always explore everything before going back to base though mate. 

best

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> *but if that was sole cause,surely all frogs would have problems.*
> 
> 
> Stu


 The problem here Stu is that frogs are no different from us really.
It is wrong that if one machine is faulty then they all must be.
It`s a bit like saying that because my mate has been diagnosed with diabetes then all my other mates have it.
Have you got it Stu ?, or Liam ? or Callum ?
It`s why they put warnings up before tv programs warning about flashing lights.
Not everyone is affected by them.
But some are, and they have fits.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> The problem here Stu is that frogs are no different from us really.
> It is wrong that if one machine is faulty then they all must be.
> It`s a bit like saying that because my mate has been diagnosed with diabetes then all my other mates have it.
> Have you got it Stu ?, or Liam ? or Callum ?
> ...


It's not a problem bro:lol2:,you just missed the first few words off:

"it's something to do with the individual for me,yeah maybe lights are a bit brighter than what I would use,or the good Dr or Mike,but if that was sole cause,surely all frogs would have problems."

We ain't got diabeties mate ODD is our common problem,obsessive dart disorder

funny as

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> We ain't got diabeties mate *ODD is our common problem*,obsessive dart disorder
> 
> funny as
> 
> Stu


You got that bit right Stu lmao :mf_dribble::jump:
I suppose Stu it`s like all written text, it`s how you read it.
After standing on my head and reading it with one eye closed and .................. I think I got it :2thumb:




Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

If i understand Stu's point correctly, he means that there seems to be a specific problem with *this* frog, rather than a general one caused by the keeping conditions- which means you are both agreeing, really! :lol2:

I'm sure it happens to all of us (has definitely happened to me, more than once!) that a frog takes ill or dies for no apparent reason, while tankmates show every sign of health. The truth is, there is _so much_ we have yet to learn about frog health, and contributory factors, up to and including individual genetics.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Very true Ron, we`re only scratching the surface.
But it`s the learning side of it all which makes it fun, if that's the right word for it.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Actually lads my biggest point was to try and keep Calz,head straight,if that's the best way of putting it.He and Liam have had a tough time of it of late,sadly both with terribs,being honest I don't want either to be too disheartened by this,both are good guys whom obviously care a lot about their frogs.I don't think either has done anything wrong really it's just bad luck. 

Mike do you think gene pool might be small with terribs,none would have been legally imported for ages now. When the blackfoot come in from Teseros,it will be interesting to see just how folks here get on with them,whether they are more robust. Tis a wild stab in the dark type of thought,but I've read of so many problems over the years with this one species. I'm pretty sure the book produced by Greg Shiler(sp?) mentions then having more probs with this species than others 

Calz you reduced the light today,any observations?
good luck mate

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I have reduced the light today, but I have been out of the house until about half an hour ago. 

I came back to find him under the lit side of the viv, he didn't spasm when I misted them but he darted for cover when I went to feed. ( no spasm when moving) I watched him take a few flies, he seemed fine in taking them. He has always had a 100% hit rate with flies. 

It seems a positive result so far, I will continue the "treatment". After a week I will probably go to 3 of 4 lights and then observe. 

I think there are probably some gene pool issues. I have no idea if the parents are related or how inbred these are. The joys of purchasing from the continent. I probably should have gone for the usual leucs or Stu's mysties, but I wanted a large display group frog, terribs fit that bill. They are extremely delicate I have found. 


I appreciate all of the input and I am taking it all on boad and cheers for the kind words. 

I will keep you all updated.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

We`re maybe reading too much into things Stu.
Not for one minute have I thought infections were involved.
But from what I`ve had with one of mine ages ago and from what Liam had, and seems to have fixed.
And now with Callum.
I`m leaning towards a light issue.
I asked Liam a few weeks back to change his lighting around so he removed one.
Now his frogs are out and being bold like Terribs do.
I had a frog taking fits and after the discussions on this thread it`s making me think that lights were involved.
Since changing things I`ve had no issues.
Now we have Callum.
We all forget that we light up a viv to see the frogs and to get the best out of the plants, broms in particular.
Who actually thinks about the frogs ?
Very few, that's who.
Dart frogs spend most of their life scraping about in leaf litter on the ground, under bushes or amongst rocks.
The point is that they are NOT out in the sun so are NOT exposed to strong sunlight.
Terribs spend their lives on the ground amongst plants and bushes and rocks.
Again we have a frog that probably spends very little time, if any, out in the sun.
Then we take them and stick them in a viv with the most powerful lights we can get our hands on.
The suns glare on a car windscreen gives me migrains, so what might be happening to a poor frog who doesn`t have a sun visor to pull down.
For what it`s worth I still recommend Terribs and in fact we`re thinking of adding to the ten we already have.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I agree the lighting is unnatural, as it probably is in most vivs. The mistake I made in trying to provide a better environment for the frogs, I removed a lot of the ground cover plants, so the ficus and the pilea. I thought they would prefer the open ground space. 

If the lights turn out to be the issue, I will go back to a heavily planted viv with a good ground covering of ficus and scandens. I will reduce the lighting until the "canopy" is dense enough in my opinion, and then bump the lighting back up over time. 

The broms are purely for my viewing benefit, the terribs will make no use of them, so if the dense planting and high light doesn't work then I will just go dim light and heavy planting and the broms will either be sacrificial or washed and recycled. Or donated to someone who has the facility to grow and pup them out of a viv.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

plasma234 said:


> The broms are purely for my viewing benefit,* the terribs will make no use of them*, so if the dense planting and high light doesn't work then I will just go dim light and heavy planting and the broms will either be sacrificial or washed and recycled.


What makes you say that Callum ?
You`ve obviously missed this thread I posted a while back http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/996082-new-species.html


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

They have the giant terrestrial brom that won't be removed, it is their favourite climbing frame and hiding spot. I meant the smaller decorative broms :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> We`re maybe reading too much into things Stu.
> Not for one minute have I thought infections were involved.
> But from what I`ve had with one of mine ages ago and from what Liam had, and seems to have fixed.
> And now with Callum.
> ...


Mike I don't know about over thinking but I share pretty much your view on light levels,we disagree on uvb,but in no way on quantity of light.
Too much light affects SOME darts adversely, you have complete agreement from me. 

Naturally you are right so much to learn few new keepers think on too much light,but conversely researching a species leads one towards something different,too much convention here,in the hobby in my eyes.


I don't think I would recomend terribs as a first frog Mike,but I don't keep them,which makes my opinion somewhat void,also my thoughts on light with them are without merit,I ain't done the homework. 

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I guess then that this is one species that would benefit from having the light broken up by a canopy of plants- the sort of thing that John promotes.


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Can I add to the light topic.

This will sound unrelated but hear me out.

In deep water marine fish (up to 50m) the light levels are much lower. This means they don't go out in aquariums with high powered lighting, unless they are acclimatised.

So perhaps the above can be applied to frogs, and over a period of months they will more likely comeout more often. Ofcourse putting really bright light will be bad, but something a bit lower, say 5000K instead of 6500K.

Start with ambient light, so in a room, not near a window. Then after a month, move them to the window, or near to it, so there is some light. Then after another month put them on the lighting needed for your plants.

Something similar, but using various lights has helped me adapt my deep sea gobies to normal light (They are breeding now ). Just wondering if doing something similar will help with forest floor frogs.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well having kept marines for over 30 years I know what your saying.
But in the marine world it is different.
Fish that like low light in my opinion shouldn`t be in normal aquariums simply because their eyes are adapted for low light.
If you use low light in marine tanks you get red algae so your kinda forced to use powerful lights even if you don`t keep corals which are the only aquarium life that needs strong lights.
Frogs though don`t need strong lights only the plants do.
A viv that has strong lights as I`ve always said needs some shelter for the frogs to get away from the lights or the heat that comes from them.
My Leucs are in my old 130 gallon marine tank with the 4 tubes (160watts) inside the sealed hood.
The viv hits 30C even in winter so heat and humidity are always high.
But the important thing is that the frogs have plenty of cover from plants to lumps of bogwood where they can get away from the light and heat.
They have even tunnelled under parts of the substrate and have found themselves a "walkway" from one side of the viv to the other, damn but they`re clever lol.
So I`m a believer that strong lights and frogs whether we like it or not, don`t mix.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> I guess then that this is one species that would benefit from having the light broken up by a canopy of plants- the sort of thing that John promotes.


They most probably would Ron, I really do agree with John's thoughts on replicating the wild animals' habitat,as best we bloody well can in a glass box.But some species are looked for by researchers in sun glasses, I would promote lower light levels than folks use for most vivs, as a generalisation though.

BUT............. 


Funny I've said this once tonight already: some dart frogs live up a mountain some live in a deep shade rainforest some right next to a beach, and some live in an area so arid they live next to cacti!!

We have (I think tired mate) 190plus morphs/species of dart and counting,they don't all need the same.

Ron plants give us massive clues in my eyes to light levels,ferns oft found in the understory are dark green what do they look like in many vivs...somewhat paler,why too much light?? Broms found up a tree we oft put less than 60cm up and think aboreal can we really use the suns power and scale it back that much with our artificial lights I'm no expert on lighting,but simple things like this make me ponder.

best

Stu


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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

Mike, just to clarify the fish are on a low light level, and there are plenty of caves for them, its a species tank. I use a refugium system, have a lot of macro algae growing in the back and use heavy skimming, plus my bioload is low. I do bi-weekly water changes of 10%. It works well for me. 

Yeah hides do work. Could it also be suggested that you put broad leaved plants high up which will block out some of the light.

I agree with you completely with the strong lights. I was thinking if you were using a moderate light 4000-5000K (?) that adjusting them to it will allow them to come out more often. But as you said hides should always be there.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It`s not all that difficult to understand really Stu.
If a frog originates from a desert it is feasible to think that they are adapted for strong light.
Those that live up a mountain will spend most of their time amongst rocks and bushes or if they`re available even trees.
This will of course give them necessary shelter from direct sunlight.
Many of our frogs, for example Tincs, live in wooded sheltered areas so again don`t get direct sunlight.
Pums and thumbs are the same and live on the forest floors and venture up the trees to deposit tads, so again most of the time they`re sheltered.
Lets not forget your Red Frog Beach from Bastimentos.
They of course are not beach combers.
They live off the beach in amongst the trees, sheltered from the sun.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> They most probably would Ron, I really do agree with John's thoughts on replicating the wild animals' habitat,as best we bloody well can in a glass box.But some species are looked for by researchers in sun glasses, I would promote lower light levels than folks use for most vivs, as a generalisation though.
> 
> BUT.............
> 
> ...


It's quite funny, actually Stu, I don't have T5s or LEDs in any of my tanks yet, and have been stressing that they aren't well-lit enough for serious planting- I have to be quite canny with both species selection and plant placement to have growing tanks at all- but maybe I've inadvertantly been doing it right all along! :lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Patto96 said:


> Mike, just to clarify the fish are on a low light level, and there are plenty of caves for them, its a species tank. I use a refugium system, have a lot of macro algae growing in the back and use heavy skimming, plus my bioload is low. I do bi-weekly water changes of 10%. It works well for me.
> 
> Yeah hides do work. Could it also be suggested that you put broad leaved plants high up which will block out some of the light.
> 
> I agree with you completely with the strong lights. I was thinking if you were using a moderate light 4000-5000K (?) that adjusting them to it will allow them to come out more often. But as you said hides should always be there.


Don`t get me wrong because I mentioned Marines.
It was in no way meant as a dig at you, I only used what you said as an example.
2 of the very first marine I bought were a Cardinal and a reef fish (I forget its name) and both of course are nocturnal fish.
Needless to say when I found out I never touched that types of fish again.
As you are already aware, even in the fish world hides are essential for lots of fish.


Mike


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi guys, 

Missed this thread the last few days and missed Callums update.

Glad to hear things are going in the right direction.
I know I kept banging on about the lights but after having a considerably huge difference and stringing a few of these stories together I can't help but agree with Mike.

He would tell you I had the most shy terribs he has probably ever heard of. Last night they were out the front, sitting on the leaves of the begonia and jumping through the brom and doing what they do best - Sitting staring. I would have NEVER saw this ''normal'' behaviour before.

I wish I had thought on this as quickly, as we have discussed this could have been the cause to a few of my problems. For all I know my frogs were heavily stressed for months and this is what caused them.

Dont put yourself down though Callum you have done what you can and acted on it. Mike gave me a slap so maybe your next :lol2:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> It's quite funny, actually Stu, I don't have T5s or LEDs in any of my tanks yet, and have been stressing that they aren't well-lit enough for serious planting- I have to be quite canny with both species selection and plant placement to have growing tanks at all- but maybe I've inadvertantly been doing it right all along! :lol2:


Mike yeah absolutely:2thumb:

Ron,sometimes I just stop step back and ponder things,why am I doing this? is what I'm asking myself,maybe that gut instinct is a bigger player than we really realise,difficult to articulate this Ron,but I guess you'll understand what I'm trying to say. All of it stems back to just looking hard Ron,possibly it's accumulative experience,but I'm sure you are on the right track,all be it almost subconciously:lol2:

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Switched the lights that were on and off today. The frog in question chose to sit in the light. Which is the opposite side to which he normally hangs around. No signs of spasms of struggling, I didn't feed today as they had a good feed yesterday. 

Progress? We will see.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

So I switched the lights back around again, so the opposite side of the viv is dim and bright. 

I was observing them prettly closely on feeding and the problem frog was right at the front, by the glass, I noticed he has a white lump on his foot. Similar to the foot rot pictures found on dendroboard. :bash:

Upon closer inspection of one of the other frogs (the biggest and boldest) has a white bump on his underside as well. So this does not bode well for the viv. So tomorrow will be a trip out to IKEA to get a few rubs and separate the frogs out into sterile set ups.

So this raises a few questions, how would one sterilise plants? I don't currently have spare leaf litter, should I wait to get some before making the tubs? The cork back ground, do I bin it or can I just give it a rinse in boiling water? 

I will be going to a leca substrate, will I see issues with the terrestrial brom, and other terrestrial plants, should I give them an area of substrate to grow in?


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Anyone?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I use a home-made mix for my terrestrial plants- 'recipes' vary, but mine is a mix of leafmould, organic potting soil, coco fibre and orchid bark- the aim is a moisture-retaining but free-draining composition. The bark stops the whole thing getting soggy, allowing excess water through to the leca, while the whole thing seems to suit the plants I use. I separate the 'soil' from the drainage layer with a membrane- weed mat works quite well, but I mostly use cheapo ordinary nylon net curtain.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I have used an abg mix at the moment, but I found with the terribs the substrate still holds too much water, whilst the humidity in the air is low, so I spray and then the sub's are then saturated. 
I think terribs come from an area that is mainly rocky with leaf litter over the top, iirc it rains heavily every day. The rocky ground would allow for allow for the water to pass straight through and the ground to not saturate. I would try to replicate this with leca or the exo Terra hydro drain and then leaf litter on top. I was wondering if at the base of the plant roots I should put some organic substrate? The viv is a glass false bottom contruction.


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Abg mix does sometimes manage to hold a lot of water. Are your temps low? May cause low humidity and not dry it out enough.


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Temps max at about 20oc on the surface. Warmer towards the top where the lights are, about 22-24. The temps drop to 16 at night.

When I put the viv back together I might put an aquarium heater and small pump in the drainage section. It is quite a large section of water with a viv this size, this would increase humidity and temps.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't use false bottoms- but I imagine they cause problems in that drainage is only to the front, rather than all through. You will need some soil for your plants to flourish- maybe increase the proportion of drainage materials, though?


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

They seem like a good design, but where terribs are so sensitive to foot rot, maybe I should have gone with the egg crate. 

Looking at the clay substrate theory, they place some abg around the base of fresh planted plants. So I will go with that. If the viv wasn't so massive, I would use the bonsai substrate akadama. I am going to use that in the pumilio viv.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I'll have to search akadama- never heard of it. :blush:

EDIT: Ok, done- reminds me of the laterite soil I've seen in tropical countries. Seems to have it's problems, though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akadama


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I'll get the harder grade stuff anyway. 

Does anyone have any idea on how to clean or sterilize plants?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

plasma234 said:


> I'll get the harder grade stuff anyway.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea on how to clean or sterilize plants?


Wash the soil off of the roots with plain water and repot. If you want to go to extremes, you can add a little milton to the water, but you really shouldn't need it.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ron false bottoms as in the ENT style viv drain forward into the front gully.
False bottoms with egg crate drain straight down through the soil into the viv base below.
But you know this.
Both have certain issues.
ENT styles can cause substrates to hold a certain amount of water.
Egg crate because it has air underneath can allow substrates to dry out too quickly.
Standard substrates with hydro leca and soil I`ve found don`t suffer from either of the above with some care.
Callum if your worried about your substrate being too wet cut back on the watering and create a dry spot for the Terribs to stand on.
A good way which I`ve used before was to use a piece of slate.
Water drains off it quickly and it is fast drying.
An alternative which I`ve also used is flat stones which I picked up from my mates aquatic shop, again they are fast drying.
As Ron says you shouldn`t have to sterilise plants, just give the roots a good clean to get rid of any fertiliser and repot and maybe give them a good wash to clean any fertiliser residue off them.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

It's to reuse the plants currently in the viv, so I don't have to bin them. I thought I would have to disinfect them with something. A very mild Milton might be the way to go.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Why disinfect them Callum ?
There is nothing wrong with them is there ?


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

plasma234 said:


> I'll get the harder grade stuff anyway.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea on how to clean or sterilize plants?


whether needed or not Calz,5 or 10% household beach,soak the plants first, in plain water to make sure all are fully hydrated,pop plants in beach soln. for ten minutes or so,then wash the hell out of them,repeated washing ie wash in one lot of water,bin that,and then start over a few times. Reading recently, adding dish soap might help with removing some pests as it lowers the surface tension of the water.

Calz,before I muse further,lets be clear I don't keep terribs ,so these are just thoughts. Mike beat me here straight up I thought the viv needs rocks my first thought was slate,I'd just add soften any sharp edges sand paper grinder might work. I'm going to go out there a bit mate,just from reading others thoughts about these particular frogs. I'm not sure you should be stripping out,I think you are putting in too much water with each mist,the leaves...the top layer of leaves,should be dry very soon after misting.I would also couple onto that once leaves start to decay,then that top layer should be replaced,so my HUNCH!!!!, is that the two fold almost management issues have caused the foot sores basically they are not getting the dry foot fall that should be available. Calz please forgive I read through the replies and then on second read went back to the plant q,I can't remember if hand or misting system is being used. If you are hand misting pump the sprayer right up hard,very very fine mist,and a very short spray a few seconds if misting system,reduce misting time down . Calz with a moist sub underneath the dry leaves and "rocks you will have humidity and I think Mikes rocks plus more frequent adding of leaves will make inroads into the problems. What I don't know is once this has been done if you need to sterilise everything.

Buddy the sores are a frog symptom,but also a symptom of the wet floor,now for sure you might need to treat the issue on the frogs,by removing then,but if soul cause is wet footfall then once its dry for them,why should said problem return? Mate I don't keep these frogs and have never had to treat,so I might be talking cobblers, once the frogs are right and ammendments have been made to the wet floor,I don't see why the problem should return. Sure these frogs might be a bit more sensitive to these issues than others, but they do have an immune system working which might mean that they would get this problem again with better conditions and without stripping out the viv.

I dunno bro,I'm pondering out loud here,and will gladly and gratefully be corrected. You know I'm a fussy git if I think I need to rip a viv down for the best for me froggie mates it's going to be done,but I'm unsure if that is best at this time,you need to change things up a bit sure,but I can't see why a problem would return if those ammendments are made once the frogs have got back to rights. Get that dry foot fall nailed asap. In this instance I'd do what I do anyway get some leaves boil dry and use as one would remove direct contact with wet and have nowt harmful( bacteria wise) actually in contact with frogs as the leaves have been boiled while they are getting back to right.

Of course this is an unsubstantiated ramble the issue might be that a bacteria in viv is the issue and one would have to start over. I just don't know,but from what I have read here today that doesn't stack up,the viv is too wet. 
Providing a dart can rehydrate via access to water one can pull misting right back,they do have dry seasons in rainforests it's not always sopping wet.

thoughts for ya mate,Good luck

Stu
ps if you need to move 'em then I don't see why orchid bark covered with a shed load of dry leaves and a good dose of springtails and especially iso(LOTS) shouldn't work as they will get to munching the lower damper leaves ...starting to create LL


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

This is one reason why I like my peat plates for the substrate.
No matter how much you spray them the water will if allowed (read sloping viv floor here) drain away from them quite quickly.
And although the peat will still hold some water the actual surface where the frogs footfall is, is dry.
If there is any heat in the viv the surface will dry out even more.
Anyone who has used eco earth or similar in a viv will know that it acts like a sponge and stays soaking wet for ages with very slow drainage properties.
So, slate, flat rocks or bogwood with LESS spraying before you do anything else to the viv.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Mike there is a post I made yesterday about i notices the frog in question has a white bump that looks like a text book foot sore, I caught the other two in deli cups and any other one has a similar bump on his belly, white and raised. 
So I am going to separate the frogs into separate rubs and try treatment with methyl blue or some kind of fish antibacterial solution. 

Stu, I would feel safer and reassured in myself if I rip out the subs and replace with an inert mineral subs, like hydrodrain. I will sterilise the plants lightly. The viv is hand misted, once a day for about 5-10 seconds. The leaf litter dries in about 30mins, they have some bogwood they could hang on that is generally dry and the giant brom leaves are dry usually, along with coco huts that they do hang around on a lot. Do you think piling some largish pebbles would be okay in providing a dry spot? 

I think because I have visual proof of an infection I will be separating them and cleaning the viv and replacing the substrate. It will won't cost too much to do this, so it's not a massive loss. I will be purchasing an aquarium heater and a very low flow pump, to try and keep the water quality of the gully decent and raise the relative humidity.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Just found this article on Terribs so thought I`d share it here.
Just touching this beautiful frog can be deadly - The Washington Post


Mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Callum have you any updates to the original reason for this thread, your frog having fits?
I just wondered how it`s doing now.
Also, yesterday I was talking to a breeder I know at MAD with loads of experience with Terribs and he reinforces that the foot rot is NOT an issue as long as you give them dry areas to stand on.
To quote him "flat stones or slate which is fast drying", I just thought you might be interested.

Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> Callum have you any updates to the original reason for this thread, your frog having fits?
> I just wondered how it`s doing now.
> Also, yesterday I was talking to a breeder I know at MAD with loads of experience with Terribs and he reinforces that the foot rot is NOT an issue as long as you give them dry areas to stand on.
> To quote him "flat stones or slate which is fast drying", I just thought you might be interested.
> ...


The thing is, its not straight up fits that he has, he just seems to have some weird contractions ONLY after striking for a fly. Rather than a simple recoil he kind of falls on his left hand side. The thing is, he still eats like all the others and is the same size, he shows no sign of pain or discomfort, just some weird movements. I have no idea, maybe it was an issue he developed when he was young, but it isn't contagious or damaging to him as far as I can see. So I can't see a justification for culling him, he is otherwise healthy and fit. 

The foot rot was my issue as I didn't provide an area that dried quickly and I was over spraying. Since I have given them some rocks to sit on and cut back the misting I haven't seen any issues.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sounds good.
I meant to have a chat with you at BAKS about it but forgot.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

the spasms have all but stopped at the moment. no change really in my husbandry. they get fed every other day now, rather than daily. sometimes i leave them a couple of days with no feeding to build up an appetite and then pour the flies on to my hand and blow them into the viv. this scatters the food around the viv and forces them into some exercise, which is absolutely fantastic to watch, who knew a terrib could jump 30cm vetically and nail a fly dead on? if they aren't really hungry then they adopt the sit and wait method of feeding, and i didnt really want 3 pacman frogs :lol2:

cheers for the help guys, this seems to be sorted now. :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

plasma234 said:


> the spasms have all but stopped at the moment. no change really in my husbandry.


Did you not change the lights around ?
I`d still be interested in finding out if that's what caused those spasms.
Anyway it`s good that they are all doing well.
As for Terribs jumping.
Mine do it every time I go to feed them lmao.
And they get fed every day.
They are hilarious.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

The lights changed from 4 x 24w t5ho reflected to 2 x 54w t5ho unreflected. I took one of the dual 24w units to put above the pum viv.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Great news Calz,wonderful to here all is going the right way now
Stoked

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It sounds like it was the lights causing the problems.
But it`s fixed now whatever it was, and that's the main point.


Mike


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