# Important – Reptile shows and the law.



## Chris Newman

Perhaps it would be helpful if I try and explain the legal situation in respect of reptile shows or pet fairs, call them what you will. This is a very complicated issue but I will try to keep to just the salient points. This is an issue that has been ongoing for some years and many events ran for over twenty years without any problems. Then the extreme Animal Rights movement in terms of Captive Animal Protection Society and Animal Aid (latterly Animal Protection Agency) saw these as a good means to raise publicity and money. As many will recall, once these extremist organisations get ‘stuck into the shows’ many shows, including those ran by recognised clubs and societies, were cancelled. 

Animal Rights organisations, such as those mentioned above and the RSPCA, are extremely well organised and well funded, not to mention experienced in campaigning. In terms of funding, just the top ten AR organisations have an annual income in excess of £200,000,000 (two hundred million pounds).

The crux of the issue used by the AR lobby was that of the 1951 Pet Animals Act, principally Section 2

If any person carries on a business of selling animals as pets in any part of a street or public place, [or] at a stall or barrow in a market, he shall be guilty of an offence. 

The antis argued that this made shows where animals were sold illegal as they constituted a ‘market’ (a concourse of buyers and sellers). They commissioned a Legal Opinion which supported this view, although interestingly the solicitor commissioned for this legal opinion was at the time the chief solicitor for the RSPCA! The antis used this opinion to threaten councils that if they allowed shows to go ahead they (the council) would be acting illegally and at this time virtually all shows were stopped.

The Federation of British Herpetologists commissioned its own Legal Opinion at great expense and unsurprisingly the FBH legal opinion differed from that of the antis. In truth the 1951 Act never took shows into account, as its concern was the selling of pets from pet shops. However, as this legislation governed the sale of pets it is/was the principle legislation and allowed the antis to make much mischief. The 1984 amendment to the 1951 Act prohibited the sale of animals at markets, but it is clear this was only intended to effect ‘street markets’, such as Petticoat Lane in London. However, lax wording allowed the extremist lobby to exploit it. Once the FBH had its legal opinion the fight back began and then on all shows run as Private Members Meetings ran successfully, as these were clearly lawful under the Act.

The legality of shows/pet fairs under the 1951 Act was, therefore, still unclear and would require a Judicial Review to seek clarity. Judicial Reviews are expensive, easily costing £30,000 – 100,000. Animal Aid were challenged many time to seek a Judicial Review if they believed their legal opinion was correct - I even challenged them at a government meeting to do so, but they declined. During this 3 or 4 year period the antis have raised huge sums of money by campaigning against shows, but were not prepared to spend any of the money on seeking legal clarity, one has to ask why?

When the Animal Welfare Bill, now Act, started its parliamentary course government intention was to clarify the law and specifically make such events emphatically legal. The proposal was to make such events licensable, which was the preferred option by just about all including 99% of Local Authorities. Naturally the antis were violently opposed to this. As the old law, the 1951 Act, was ambiguous if the such events were lawful or not governments intention was to clarify the law and specifically make them legal. Naturally the antis opposed this. In a last ditch attempt to stop all shows the antis, with the assistance of a newly formed body of ‘legal experts’ set up by members of the RSPCA Council, managed to fiddle a Judicial Review at tax payer’s expense, thus saving the antis risking any of funds raised on this issue - Haynes v Stafford.

The Judicial Review was not brought against a reptile society, rather a bird society, the Act concerning ‘vertebrates’, not specific taxa. Unfortunately the latter society declined to involve other interested parties and instead fought the case itself. Unfortunately the antis were partially successful with the case and the judgment ruling on ‘markets’ was very unhelpful, however, others parts of the ruling were favourable. It was unfortunate that other interested parties were not involved in this case as I believe that we had a very strong case. For example, what is the difference between a pet shop on a high street and sports hall - are they not both ‘public places’? It is a complicated legal issue and there is little point in debating it as its water under the bridge, we have to look forward not back. 

Under the Animal Welfare Act government has stated the intention to still clarify the law concerning Private Members Meetings and to specifically make them lawful, but not ‘commercial events’. However, we are someway off from this happening and it is not expected that the legislation concerning Pet Vending and Pet Fairs will come into force until the end of 2008. Until then the old 1951 Act remains in force, so at the moment shows organised for the benefit of ‘recognised’ clubs and societies, such as the IHS etc, can go ahead unaffected, although commercial events are clearly illegal.

There is still a long way to go before this matter gets resolved, not least of which is setting definitions of what is a ‘Private Members Meeting’ or ‘Commercial Event’ or what constitutes a ‘Recognised Club or Society’. Clearly it is in our best interests to act as responsibly as possible and not give our opponents opportunity to make mischief. However, while the future is looking positive there are some difficulties on the horizon. As you will be aware there has been a change of leadership in the government and we now have new Ministers if charge of the Animal Welfare Act and new Minister in charge of DEFRA, the government department in overall responsibility for the Act. Hillary Benn is the new Minister responsible for DEFRA and his father, Tony Benn, is patron to Animal Aid. I for one find this association a little uncomfortable!

Chris Newman
Chairman Federation of British Herpetologists


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## SiUK

Hello Chris, good helpful post :no1:


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## t-bo

Agreed, thanks for the post... its good to know there still appears to be light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Snakes r grreat

Thanks for the info Chris, its very helpfull in getting to understand it all.


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## wozza_t

Thanks for this Chris.
Please could you keep us up to date with whats happening regards the private members meetings, as I think we should all be looking into this a bit more, just to make sure we all stay on the good side of the law and not give them any more reason to slate the herp community!:no1:


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## SiUK

if anyone knows the laws regarding herps then Chris will


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## cornmorphs

think this needs to be sticky.. thanks chris


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## tigger79

Hmmmmm very interesting,


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## DeanThorpe

good read.
to me though i would read that and think that as it stands now you, if you had a pet shop for instance, could hire a second venue for a day due to expecting heavy custom for instance, hire out a hall, have other sellers come in on a fee or commision basis and go ahead under the name, license and everything else of the pet shop and not have any troubles.. especially if the organiser had a pet shop in the same district in which the show/meeting was to be held.

hope everything gets resolved soon.


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## Chris Newman

A Pet Shop Licence (PSL) is specific to the area licensed, i.e. the shop or your home. It would not cover you even 50 yards down the road. It is illegal for someone that holds a PSL to trade in an area, be that next door or other end of the country that is not covered by a licensed. Until the Judicial Review many Local Authorities would issue temporary PSL for the day, this covered any trader licensed elsewhere, unfortunately this is now deemed illegal.


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## Chris Newman

Over the next 2 or 3 years there is going to be a huge amount of legislation coming into force that will affect reptile and amphibian keeping. From shows to keeping to selling (vending), there will a push to prohibit the keeping of some reptiles and there is a big push to prohibit the sale of animals via the internet, as well as shows. We live in difficult times and each of us will have to play our part if we wish to continue to enjoy this marvellous hobby.


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## SiUK

Chris Newman said:


> Over the next 2 or 3 years there is going to be a huge amount of legislation coming into force that will affect reptile and amphibian keeping. From shows to keeping to selling (vending), there will a push to prohibit the keeping of some reptiles and there is a big push to prohibit the sale of animals via the internet, as well as shows. We live in difficult times and each of us will have to play our part if we wish to continue to enjoy this marvellous hobby.


that is worrying


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## Fixx

SiUK said:


> that is worrying


It is Simon, especially when you realise how apathetic the British have become, our rights to decide for ourselves are slowly being eroded, and we seem to sit back and happily let it happen, a nation more interested in Big Brother and Big Macs than politics and protecting their freedoms and rights. Since the time of Thatcher the powers that be have also done a rather good job of fragmenting society, gone are the days when the printers, dockers and coal miners come out in support of a nurses strike, nowadays it is just the nurses on their own (for example), and this has made us weaker as a nation and as a democracy.


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## SiUK

I dont see what the problem is its annoying and it stresses me out:-x.

Is there really a problem with reptile keeping statistically? in the worse case scenario and it was to get banned then whats next all pets?? because cats and dogs cause a much bigger problem than any exotics, they are a real strain on rescue centres all around the country, im sure there is irresponsible reptile and other exotic owners, but compared to how many irresponsible cat and dog owners there are, well it doesnt even compare.

In an ideal world IMO they could restrict the owning of exotics to people with correct licences that have proved they are responsible.


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## Snakes r grreat

Animal Aid in 2006 targetted Wyevale Garden Centre's to stop selling ALL pets, by the end of the year Wyevale by that time under new management, caved in and stopped the sale of pets in all of its centre's. They were the 2nd biggest retailer of pets at the time. 

Whilst this was going on, Animal Aid were publically stating on there website that they were against the keeping of pets FULL STOP. This went right down to farm animals, rescue dogs, etc. Now, they no longer state this on their website, but i doubt that their policy has changed much in the last year, especially as they were successfull with Wyevale. Perhaps they thought a change in wording would get them yet even more support??

Anyway, this just show's the type of people who we are dealing with, maybe people may soon realise that this actually happening, and is affecting them and their hobby??

The main shareholder of Wyevale Garden Centre's is Sir Tom Hunter, the richest man in Scotland, might be worth looking him up on the net.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*well said...*

Hi all, 

Cheers Chris, l think this needed to be highlighted in order to eliminate confusion over this issue.

All statements made here on this thread are accurate, apathy is killing this country not just this hobby/industry.

It will continue to take setbacks, new disasters, awkward legislations, indecent proposals before this country, hobby, fraternity, business, industry actually wakes up and smells the coffee...sad but true.

I would like to think that there is still enough fight in the industry to show those that oppose that we do actually have and possess a backbone, but sadly and rather pessimistically l do believe that it will not be the case.

Primate politics may well be a far cry from reptiles and amphibians, but it is not in reality. If that is legislated to the hilt and as a result becomes restricted ownership then why not next those that own exotic cats?

Now if this happens will this affect you?

Yeah it will, everyone knows the more you chip away at something large, the more smaller pieces drop off, and as Fixx has pointed out the government has done its damnest to ensure that society is already fragmented.

The antis claimed the wyvale as a success and lest us not forget the focus diy stores, the antis do have the power of finances behind them as Chris has said, many more pennies to their travelling pound than ours l am afraid.

Unless the backbone is presented then yes, we will lose this long battle over time, over the next few years it will not just be a case of Englands shoreline eroding away to nothing - it will be the fraternities slowly being decimated.

TSKA Rory Matier


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## gaz

bet your wasting your words there mate,the majority of this forum and general reptile keepers simply glaze over when politics/actually having to do something, comes up,seen it all before with pistols/auto rifles/hunting and its going to play out the same way again,its just human nature i spose.
best of it is that if these people get their way and our reps are removed from us them most reptile keepers will say "oh well" and move onto something else.
anyway just my tuppence worth from a very cynical(today only lol) gaz


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## Snakes r grreat

Unfortunatly im inclined to agree with you gaz, makes me think back to this http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/29245-important.html

I wonder how many people out of the 2500 active members on here actually took the time to write to their mp to raise the issue. We as a nation are known for just sitting back and being walked over by the government, wonder when that will change??? 

Here is Animal Aids website incase people would like to look at the people determined to finish their hobby off... Animal Aid: About Animal Aid


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## WeThePeople

Snakes r grreat said:


> Animal Aid in 2006 targetted Wyevale Garden Centre's to stop selling ALL pets, by the end of the year Wyevale by that time under new management, caved in and stopped the sale of pets in all of its centre's. They were the 2nd biggest retailer of pets at the time.
> 
> Whilst this was going on, Animal Aid were publically stating on there website that they were against the keeping of pets FULL STOP. This went right down to farm animals, rescue dogs, etc. Now, they no longer state this on their website, but i doubt that their policy has changed much in the last year, especially as they were successfull with Wyevale. Perhaps they thought a change in wording would get them yet even more support??
> 
> Anyway, this just show's the type of people who we are dealing with, maybe people may soon realise that this actually happening, and is affecting them and their hobby??
> 
> The main shareholder of Wyevale Garden Centre's is Sir Tom Hunter, the richest man in Scotland, might be worth looking him up on the net.


They put cianide in with the fish and rat poison in with rodents killing them all at my local wyevale center, they would picket outside the main doors intimidating customers as they went in. Its no wonder the first thing they did when Sir Tom did when he took over was to ban the sale of pets.

The second thing he did was fire all the unskilled staff over 21 and gave the jobs to people aged 16-18 paying them £2.60 per hour - He got his knighthood for philanthropy, i dont see the philanthropy in that : victory:

Animal rights groups have more power than people give them credit for, if they are sticking dead horses in the street and digging grannies out of graves they breed fear in people.


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## Snakes r grreat

WeThePeople said:


> They put cianide in with the fish and rat poison in with rodents killing them all at my local wyevale center, they would picket outside the main doors intimidating customers as they went in. Its no wonder the first thing they did when Sir Tom did when he took over was to ban the sale of pets.
> 
> The second thing he did was fire all the unskilled staff over 21 and gave the jobs to people aged 16-18 paying them £2.60 per hour - He got his knighthood for philanthropy, i dont see the philanthropy in that : victory:


 
All sorts of weird things went on whilst they were campaigning, i couldnt point the finger directly, but its certainly helpfull to their campaign when they can photograph dead animals in pet shops, regardless of the way they died. 

And the new policies that Wyeval have adopted since Sir Tom took over i could debate all day. : victory:


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## WeThePeople

Snakes r grreat said:


> All sorts of weird things went on whilst they were campaigning, i couldnt point the finger directly, but its certainly helpfull to their campaign when they can photograph dead animals in pet shops, regardless of the way they died.
> 
> And the new policies that Wyeval have adopted since Sir Tom took over i could debate all day. : victory:


Do you work for them? I know people who do, and there all looking for jobs elsewhere its got that bad.


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## Fixx

Bloody sad state of affairs when threads like this discussing our hobby and the future of it only get 395 views and 19 replies compared to the 131 replies and 1100+ views for the oral sex thread in the over 18's.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*oral beats the law again*

What do you expect Ray?

Apathy rules okay in the UK.

There will always be sex, there may not always be a hobby.

Why fret?

If we lose the industry will it really matter?

If we lose the ability to keep animals the way we currently do, does it really make an ounce of difference?

But Jeepers! If we lose the ability to have sex, well that will make the media for a very long time.

Lose an industry that will only be headlines for as long as people wish it to be the case.

Quite funny really, wonder if there is a marketing ploy there?

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*or this*

Monkey beaters beat the law!

Legislation sucked in orally!

R


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## cornmorphs

Fixx said:


> Bloody sad state of affairs when threads like this discussing our hobby and the future of it only get 395 views and 19 replies compared to the 131 replies and 1100+ views for the oral sex thread in the over 18's.


not everyone knows what to say.. i want to read it and learn, but at the moment am unsure of the situation.
thats maybe the case with a few others.


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## Snakes r grreat

I get what your saying about the reply's nige, but you cant argue with the number of views.


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## cornmorphs

i think ypu have to admit that despite being a rep forum, the general off topic will always generate more interest.


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## Snakes r grreat

cornmorphs said:


> i think ypu have to admit that despite being a rep forum, the general off topic will always generate more interest.


True nige, cant deny im not a big off topic person myself, just a shame people cant take the situation more seriously.


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## madaboutreptiles

I think a lot of people may just be trying to figure out where they stand and how this will eventually effect them.

But we as British people do let the government crap all overs, I think that is a known fact


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## cornmorphs

i think thats more like it


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*be that as it may*

Be that as it may, but that does not help does it?

Exeter cancelled, and all hell breaks loose, why?

Legislation and protocol cancelled the show, why is there no hell raising on that? 

Apart from, l know let's hang the officials!

Opportunities were abound prior to the legislational changes, the ability to think politically does not stifle the ability to still have a good time and think about recreational conversation - surely?

R


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## SiUK

I always find threads tend to go two ways totally off topic or turn into arguments. 

What im not entirely clear on maybe you can help Rory is why is Exeter not allowed but other shows like Ware and Pras were allowed??


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*threads reveal*

Hi Si, 

The threads covering Exeter have in fact revealed why the Exeter show was pulled and cancelled and Chris Newmans' post did in fact clear this issue quite well.

If that is not understood, then no disrespect is meant here, but my answer is a politically correct answer.

R


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## madaboutreptiles

Ok, we know that the law IS going to change with respect to keeping and selling reptiles.

We dont know exactly how the law is going to change nad how it will affect us all?

The question is what exactly can we do about it as a group?


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## SiUK

so if it had been a private members meeting affiliated with for example FBH and people had to be a member to enter then it could of happened?


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## Dan

Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to make the post. The following words are likely to upset a large proportion of viewers but i think they need to be aired to remove the current unrest.

*I would like to ask what EXACTLY are our "guardians" are doing?*

We often see jargon like "save our hobby" followed by "join the ....... group/club/society etc etc" on the net but never see what they are actually doing or achieving (other than failures).

*I would like to ask what your thoughts are on the growing feeling that those most in the limelight for "trying" to save our hobby are actually far from the image we are led to believe?*

More and more their is a feeling that the current leaders are extremely unsuitable for the job they are carrying out within the hobby and should stand down to allow fresh eyes/minds to really view and tackle the problems we face.
As an example :
Brian Davies of the IHS who was quoted as saying "continue with that show and i will personally ring every anti organisation i can to make sure your show is a complete failure"



As allways i stand alone to ask these questions, i no longer ask for support when questioning you or those in similar positions. As such i will NOT publicly divulge any of my sources nor will i be contacting people to post in my favour.

This post is in NO WAY A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU, but you should know that you (or someone acting on your behalf) are the number 1 suspect for contacting councils to stop shows. 
It is also worth noting that someone working for "Pets At Home" stands to benefit more from the death of the reptile hobby so if the rumours (more than one person has told me this now) are true then surely you are compromised in your current position.

If you could respond in CLEAR and DIRECT answers it would be appreciated. I know you have developed a politicians way of answering questions over the years so it may not be easy.

In order to stop people that don't know me thinking i am hiding behind a username my real name is Daniel Fryer and despite the damage this does to my reputation i stand by my questions.


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## jav07

SiUK said:


> so if it had been a private members meeting affiliated with for example FBH and people had to be a member to enter then it could of happened?


if it was organised by a society and did not have businesses selling livestock,and it was open to members then i think it could have happened.


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## jav07

More and more their is a feeling that the current leaders are extremely unsuitable for the job they are carrying out within the hobby and should stand down to allow fresh eyes/minds to really view and tackle the problems we face.
who would you suggest for the jobs though?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*mm*

It is an interesting point though Dan.

If the current party leaders are not suitable, who would you suggest takes the main role?

The main roles are not much fun for anyone particular person, and perhaps a joint if not group order should take the role or perhaps just join the existing.

You know my views on this, but at the present time, who is 'more suitable' in this demanding role?

And also what of motivation for this person or party?

There are many passionate people whom argue the toss over the politics for this industry, but as you and l have discussed before, a voice can be lost in a crowd, a crowd makes a voice, but is then considered a mob, where does the order come from to make a mob a responsible party, and with a responsible party surely there must be an elected body to move the party forwards?

But back to motivation, now that you have laid the political gauntlet down to Chris Newman, this thread has taken on new spice, hey may not be oral sex, but it does seem to be coming to a head again. 

Motivation is the key to success Dan, ensuring that motivation is ruling the leadership forwards.

Apathy does not rule nor rue the day, but apathy is lending a very serious hand in dragging down the leaderships' positivity.

So under new leadership, do you or the new party believe that they could in all seriousness prevent apathy from dragging its heels?

Just a question?

Rory Matier


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## ratboy

The point surely about this particular thread is it is basically a statement of the current situation regarding the holding of shows written by the chairman of the FBH.

What really is there to say ? There is no argument or discussion, these are statements of fact.

I agree with what Ray says about the views though. Unless there is an argument going on... people are not interested.


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## wohic

we are a nation of 'it will never happen'
Because people think 'they cant do that' they do nothing to stop it.

Genuinly guys, people do not have a clue about how serious the situation is, I have heard it said that we are worring over nothing and been told that chris and others (including me) are scaremongering. 

I really have no idea how to rally the masses, other than gain the interest of the tabloids, and get celebrity Keepers On side and aware.

Brick walls and heads.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*exactly*

Well done Ratboy, 

Simple fact thrown in, this thread was about the facts.

If people really want something alarming, Hell, why do we not just throw it all to the wind and say, People wake up, start acting now or eveything will be lost by 2012, l have said this before and yes, like you Wohic l am oft accused of scare mongering, well there we go.

Unless apathy is thrown to the wolves then reptile keeping may well be lost by 2012, Jeepers again, that is in reality only five years away, well sort of.

So here we are a statement of fact about the legislation, and then a political gauntlet thrown in for an x factor challenge, so lets go for gold and say - yeah is all lost - OMG!!

Now what?


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## DeanThorpe

well guys, im very very aware of this thread and others, have spent the last day or 2 disscussing this situation with ppl who arent even in the hobby as the cancelation of exter show and the reasons behind it have really done me in... truth be told i wasnt aware of it and still dont really understand...
The thought that really keeps coming to my head is... why did jason not get a license if thats what you need if your not a recognised group? and then from there... i dont understand why the reasons it wasnt allowe dto go ahead selling live animals dont count for everyone, im still struggling with it.
Having said that im still new to this and am re-reading everything i can get to try and fully grasp it.

Either way I offer my full suport to any part, group or individual who is able to lead us and be the voice for our hobby here in the UK.

Its easy to say.. yes.. 

Will be keeping close tabbs on what goes on over the next day or so.


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## ratboy

Dean,

There is already a group that is the voice of the hobby in the UK. The Federation of British Herpetologists (FBH).

Every club in the country (I think... please correct me if I am wrong) is affiliated with either the FBH or the International Herpetological Society (IHS) and the IHS are themselves affiliated with the FBH.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*aah, but*

I have to correct you Ratboy, 

I think that is what Dan was refering to, that perhaps the FBH should stand down?

To be replaced by a new body maybe....?

R


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## ratboy

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> I have to correct you Ratboy,
> 
> I think that is what Dan was refering to, that perhaps the FBH should stand down?
> 
> To be replaced by a new body maybe....?
> 
> R


Yes... but if that ever happens, it would be in the future Rory... I meant right now


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*aah, valid point!*

Aah l see, valid point, sorry getting somewhat confused, still trying to recover from the possibility of reptile keeping lost by 2012!

Scared myself, yes of course, in the future, not as in right now, point taken.

Thanks

R


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## brittone05

I think many people fail to understand the work that actually goes on behind the scenes regarding the "leading bodies" int he whole political issue.

Fresh blood is always the first thing that is suggested when something appears to be falling down slowly - but fresh blood is not always better at the top!

If people spent less time b**hing about whose fault cancellations were and such and wo didn't do enough to stop it all, and a little more time actually "thinking" about HOW they could help as an individual to save the hobby they devote thier lives to then I agree, maybe it is a waste of time having a leading body int he first place!

Rory, Wohic - I don't think scaremongering should even be contemplated - you are telling peope in advance that if they don't get off their backsides and actually do something constructive, then they WILL lose the hobby they claim to care so much about - that is not scaremongering - it is true!!

People said a smoking ban would never come into play and wahayy look what happened! Stuff the fact that the government makes a bloody mint off taxes on tobacco and they stand to lose because people will start to quit - what do they stand to lose if people give up reptiles because of a ban or a heavily stringlent keeping license program etc? Sod all is what they will lose - some of them will probably be thankful that the likes of Chris and Rory and everyone else who works their socks off behind the scenes are not giving them earache and fighting to protect what every single person on this forum takes for granted - the freedom to keep thier animals in loving environments!

Sorry - I know I am ranting here a touch but come on, lets face it - do you really think people talk of apathy and ognirance fo the fun of it? It is a FACT that the reptile hobby is declining before our eyes and very few people are willing to even consider the consequences of doing nothing


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## ratboy

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Well done Ratboy,
> 
> Simple fact thrown in, this thread was about the facts.
> 
> If people really want something alarming, Hell, why do we not just throw it all to the wind and say, People wake up, start acting now or eveything will be lost by 2012, l have said this before and yes, like you Wohic l am oft accused of scare mongering, well there we go.
> 
> Unless apathy is thrown to the wolves then reptile keeping may well be lost by 2012, Jeepers again, that is in reality only five years away, well sort of.
> 
> So here we are a statement of fact about the legislation, and then a political gauntlet thrown in for an x factor challenge, so lets go for gold and say - yeah is all lost - OMG!!
> 
> Now what?


Half of the problem is that today's society is all about instant gratification. For years Chris, Nils and the FBH committee have been asking us to write to our MP's and many of us have ... how many I don't know. But we hear nothing back... and that's that... I've done my bit, now what ?

Some of us, less of us, write again and this time some get a response which is a fob off or it's forwarded to the RSPCA ... well that's that then, game over... what a waste of my time that was.

I doubt many will have written for the third time because what's the point ? we will just get fobbed off again and anyway the thread telling us what to do is now on page 2 so it gets forgotten about until it's back on page 1 because someone has actually got a decent response from their MP... or a new thread like this one is started.

What people want is to be able to write a letter to someone and that's that... hobby saved lets get on with breeding and keeping our animals... instant gratification... unfortunately this is the long haul, there is no instant gratification in politics. It is slow and it is cumbersome.

People want leadership. They need to be told exactly what to do, what to say and who to say it to... without that, it's not going to happen. If letter 1 comes back they need to be told to write letter 2. If letter 2 is fobbed off they need to be told to write letter 3 and who to write it to. Many need the letters that need to be sent written for them.

The last paragraph sounds very patronising... it *IS *very patronising... but it is also the truth as I see it.


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## jav07

brittone05 said:


> I think many people fail to understand the work that actually goes on behind the scenes regarding the "leading bodies" int he whole political issue.
> 
> Fresh blood is always the first thing that is suggested when something appears to be falling down slowly - but fresh blood is not always better at the top!
> 
> If people spent less time b**hing about whose fault cancellations were and such and wo didn't do enough to stop it all, and a little more time actually "thinking" about HOW they could help as an individual to save the hobby they devote thier lives to then I agree, maybe it is a waste of time having a leading body int he first place!
> 
> Rory, Wohic - I don't think scaremongering should even be contemplated - you are telling peope in advance that if they don't get off their backsides and actually do something constructive, then they WILL lose the hobby they claim to care so much about - that is not scaremongering - it is true!!
> 
> People said a smoking ban would never come into play and wahayy look what happened! Stuff the fact that the government makes a bloody mint off taxes on tobacco and they stand to lose because people will start to quit - what do they stand to lose if people give up reptiles because of a ban or a heavily stringlent keeping license program etc? Sod all is what they will lose - some of them will probably be thankful that the likes of Chris and Rory and everyone else who works their socks off behind the scenes are not giving them earache and fighting to protect what every single person on this forum takes for granted - the freedom to keep thier animals in loving environments!
> 
> Sorry - I know I am ranting here a touch but come on, lets face it - do you really think people talk of apathy and ognirance fo the fun of it? It is a FACT that the reptile hobby is declining before our eyes and very few people are willing to even consider the consequences of doing nothing


well said


----------



## Dan

Go on then, i'll bite - i wasn't going to respond until Chris had but as he has read it and chosen not to i might aswell.

I don't claim to have all the answers, i am just tired of hearing the same old questions asked behind closed doors.
I'll try to answer what i can though.

*Who should be in charge?*
I have NO idea. I can see who should not, but not who should.

*How would i prevent apathy?*
Simple, easiest one to answer this. I wouldn't.
What i would do is canvass EVERY single reptile keeper and find those people that want to help. Going on out-dated figures, if just 1 in 10 of every reptile household was to help that would be a workforce of 100,000 households.
That way the apathists can do what ever they want and the workforce can save the hobby. I've said it before Rory, we need to identify our weaknesses and work with or around them rather than against them as we have been doing.

*How would i contact all the hobbiests?*
There is currently a nice fat bank account that could easily pay for an advertising campaign in ALL the papers and have regained the cost within a matter of years.
Generally get OFF the bloody net. The current advertising stretches purely to word of mouth and the net. This needs to stop being so focussed to encompass traditional PR methods and needs to be stronger. Give the net goers something to be proud of so word of mouth becomes a stronger tool.

*What would i do once i had completed the above?*
Attack, attack, attack. The old line of "offense is the best defense" is very accurate. Put real time and effort into destroying every publication they have produced, every report they have comissioned and every court case they should not have commenced.

*How would i keep it running continuously?*
At no point would "hangers on" be tolerated. This hobby has enough people willing to say they will help but don't actually do anything. We are at the stage where dead weight can no longer be tolerated so lets get rid of it.

*Suggested concurrent activities*
While the above is going on i would establish public, council, government and animal rights liason teams.
I would ASK for help, anyone willing to give help would be given a job.
I would commission reports and get some usefull facts collected.
I would attend EVERY show throughout Europe just to show presence and recruit more people.


It reads like i am running for the job myself but as i have said before, while i would happily help set it up i don't believe i have the right personality to continue it on to the level it needs to achieve.


----------



## Guest

perhaps its time to stop this scare mongering 

and propose somthing we can all unite in 

no ones ever taking my snakes out of my house while im breathing !!!


----------



## wohic

SteveL said:


> perhaps its time to stop this scare mongering ****
> 
> and propose somthing we can all unite in
> 
> no one ever taking my snakes out my house while im breathing !!!


BUT thats just it *THEY WILL* Its not scare mongering.

And please mind your language one the general forum.


----------



## Guest

wohic said:


> BUT thats just it *THEY WILL *Its not scare mongering.
> 
> And please mind your language one the general forum.


what language? oh sorry i said [email protected] why quote it then LOL edit it 

its scare mongering and its getting boring thats why people dont reply


----------



## Dan

SteveL said:


> its scare mongering and its getting boring thats why people dont reply


I agree wholeheartedly.

Nobody wants to hear doom and gloom all the time. We need either positive news or something to do in order to keep minds thinking about other things.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*An interesting read*

Hi Dan, 

It is a wild statement to suggest that Chris has read this and not answered, he does have to go to bed sometime you know.

Well l have seen these before, l know your views, and you know mine.

You have raised some validity to what you write.

But sadly it is not always as easy as this as you well know.

Sadly politics prevents certain procedures from taking action.

So whilst some paths can be laid out easily, this does not necessarily mean that a new leadership is an absolute requirement?

But l am not in a position to answer this post, but l do feel sure that it does raise issues for others to respond to.

So well done on that level.

Rory Matier


----------



## wohic

SteveL said:


> its scare mongering and its getting boring thats why people dont reply


well its a sad fact that people like you will be the first to kick off when it does happen.

And it will.


(unless we act now)

pigeon keeper rallied and stuck together and guess what , they are exempt from the sales part of the AWB as are koi, again a big following with well supported societys.

Then there is us, a few trying to hold it together for the rest, the apathetic, the naive, the down right stupid, the ostrich's.........


----------



## Dan

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> It is a wild statement to suggest that Chris has read this and not answered, he does have to go to bed sometime you know.
> 
> Well l have seen these before, l know your views, and you know mine.
> 
> You have raised some validity to what you write.
> 
> But sadly it is not always as easy as this as you well know.
> 
> Sadly politics prevents certain procedures from taking action.
> 
> So whilst some paths can be laid out easily, this does not necessarily mean that a new leadership is an absolute requirement?
> 
> But l am not in a position to answer this post, but l do feel sure that it does raise issues for others to respond to.
> 
> So well done on that level.
> 
> Rory Matier


Rory, there is nothing wild about me saying he had read it.
I watched him log on, go to the thread and read it before dissapeering. He may have gone to bed but someone on his username read the post and you can guarantee he will have been informed of the contents.

To be absolutely honest i'll go right ahead and suggest that you rang him and told him to look. THAT may be wild but is based on watching your actions on the forums.

On the note of the topic at hand...

Since when is ANYTHING worth doing easy?
Same old story though, excuses given for not actually improving the situation.

Politics only stop the important changes if you obey the politicians.


----------



## ratboy

I do agree with Steve that this stuff is boring. I also know first hand that the FBH *know *it's boring and a turn off ... which is why they don't post much about it anymore.

I think it's sad that we find fighting to keep our hobby so boring though. With the amount of money that is made by businesses in the hobby and by breeders, you would have thought they would all think it's worth fighting for.


----------



## Guest

wohic said:


> well its a sad fact that people like you will be the first to kick off when it does happen.
> 
> And it will.
> 
> 
> (unless we act now)
> 
> pigeon keeper rallied and stuck together and guess what , they are exempt from the sales part of the AWB as are koi, again a big following with well supported societys.
> 
> Then there is us, a few trying to hold it together for the rest, the apathetic, the naive, the down right stupid, the ostrich's.........


 



im sorry but i will be there with the masses you do not know me and dont presume to .statements like ile be the one kicking off if it does happen is bol''''.. i will be there before it happens ..even though it wont in my humble opinion.i tend to keep out of these threads for one reason .............................I dont like drawing attention to who or what i am doing ..as i am sure most think the same ..as do dog owners and the like ..

my opinion stands


----------



## sparkle

RIGHT... so lets get a sticky up with suggestions of how we can properly uinite... Im not much use at that sort of thing... BUT


this is really serious...

its the only thread ive bothered to read through from start to finish without skipping one single bit...

The thought of them taking away my animals that I love and that feel settled and safe with me makes me worry enough.. I dont think its scare tactics.. and 5 years will fly in...

example...

my water dragon would be 6 yrs old in 2012... what would they propose to do with her.... cull her >>>> 


my beardies would be 8 and 6 yrs old.. what happenes to them

my snakes, newt, frog.. the list goes on...

im not great at organising but Im good at listening to suggestions and seriously striving to do something...

I cant imaging them making rep keeping illegal not because they wont but because it frightens me.. but if they do then what the hell are they proposing to do with all the reptiles they will have to herd in ... I have enough passion about my animals ot truly care.. this is really worrying...

Politics and Money will always play a major part in Law making,, but we have to speak now or we will lose our chance...

I wil be watching this thread develop... and look for ideas....


----------



## Dan

ratboy said:


> I think it's sad that we find fighting to keep our hobby so boring though. With the amount of money that is made by businesses in the hobby and by breeders, you would have thought they would all think it's worth fighting for.


I think you mis-interpret what people find boring. 
EVERYONE loves a good scrap, when they are on the winning side. Nobody likes to be reminded of the constant losses.


----------



## LeeH

only a small number of reptilekeepers use the internet or webforums so how are we supposed to accuse laziness if the information is not there for everybody..not every keeper of animals is part of a society or part of a site so fighting between each other like holier than thou attitude is doing no favours..ive personally written on every petition ive seen,wrote to my MP etc but i would be open to suggestions of more i could do and find people would rather scorn others(i mean ive seen pointless thread go to 30-40 pages because of arguement..im not saying this site in particular but lets face it most are us are addicted to the drama) than help each other in times like this but as i said lets not forget internet forums are a tiny percentage of animal keepers of this country.


----------



## sparkle

rankindude2 said:


> only a small number of reptilekeepers use the internet or webforums so how are we supposed to accuse laziness if the information is not there for everybody..not every keeper of animals is part of a society or part of a site so fighting between each other like holier than thou attitude is doing no favours..ive personally written on every petition ive seen,wrote to my MP etc but i would be open to suggestions of more i could do and find people would rather scorn others(i mean ive seen pointless thread go to 30-40 pages because of arguement..im not saying this site in particular but lets face it most are us are addicted to the drama) than help each other in times like this but as i said lets not forget internet forums are a tiny percentage of animal keepers of this country.


 
we need ideas and quick...

i can lobby and sign petitions but that wont be enough...

how do we reach all the rep keepers you are right...


----------



## Guest

ratboy said:


> I do agree with Steve that this stuff is boring. I also know first hand that the FBH *know *it's boring and a turn off ... which is why they don't post much about it anymore.
> 
> I think it's sad that we find fighting to keep our hobby so boring though. With the amount of money that is made by businesses in the hobby and by breeders, you would have thought they would all think it's worth fighting for.


thats just it though Steve theres all this waffle about the hobby being under threat ..but whos coming up with solutions here? not much is being passed around other than write to the mp blah blah ... lets here some ideas and solutions then we can all get together and debate our pets futures..BROTHERS AND SISTER unite lol


----------



## sparkle

SteveL said:


> thats just it though Steve theres all this waffle about the hobby being under threat ..but whos coming up with solutions here? not much is being passed around other than write to the mp blah blah ... lets here some ideas and solutions then we can all get together and debate our pets futures..BROTHERS AND SISTER unite lol


I haven't been in the hobby long enough to make sensible wel thought out suggestions...

but I have passion and a desire to DO something... 

theres a great saying my grandfather taught me

_"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has."_

_Margaret Mead_

_We dont need to change the world as such... but if we act defeated before we even try then were stuffed..._


----------



## mask-of-sanity

i have read through this post and whilst i dont understand it all, myself as a hobbyist do not want to have to give up my reptiles and am willing to help in anyway i can to prevent this if we can ....


----------



## LeeH

another thing that gets me too is when people sign petitions as anon...aren't they proud to keep them :s


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Wild Cards*

Golly Dan, 

Goodness gracious me, to assume such a thing about me, might even suggest that you are using your telepathic powers again!

On line, off line, green lights, off lights, what is the world coming to?

Irrelevant to whether he has 'viewed' the post or not he does deserve the right to 1] go to bed lol and 2] reserves the right to answer in his own time to such a long post.

Same old excuses?

Really? Do you think?

I just think that at times, if things are worth doing they are worth doing well.


"Since when is ANYTHING worth doing easy?" said the martyr to the Bishop.

How about things are only as complicated as you make them?

There are no excuses being used here, but as said things take time, something that perhaps we do not have a lot of - but Rome was not built in a day either.

As said, you write some validity.

Rory


----------



## ratboy

SteveL said:


> thats just it though Steve theres all this waffle about the hobby being under threat ..but whos coming up with solutions here? not much is being passed around other than write to the mp blah blah ... lets here some ideas and solutions then we can all get together and debate our pets futures..BROTHERS AND SISTER unite lol


This is just it though Steve, it's what I meant about the instant gratification post. The way we can help, in my opinion, is simply to support the FBH or whoever takes over if those that want them replaced get their way. 

The only way this hobby is going to get banned now is through the AWB and all we can hope to do... in fact all we need to do... is influence what goes in to the Codes of Practice that govern what can be done under the AWB. The way to do that is to highlight what is going on and get public support for our views.

I don't honestly believe that all reptile keeping is going to be banned and I honestly think that the snakes that I keep personally will actually be OK but then I do not keep big snakes. 

I do have no doubt at all that if those that are creating the Codes of Practice get there way unopposed... many of the snakes that we keep in the hobby will either be banned outright or will be made so difficult to keep properly ( properly = according to the code of practice for that species ) that it will not be viable to do.

The key to my mind is simply supporting the work that others are doing on our behalf... whoever that may be.


----------



## SiUK

are people saying chris doesnt do a good job?? sorry guys its late and I havnt the time to trawl through pages of long posts im afraid


----------



## LeeH

i think Chris and everyone that fight for our hobby do an EXCELLENT job..sorry i didn't make that clear in my postings


----------



## Guest

Non of my replies were aimed at the thread starter ...

i have seen these threads over the years and avoided them ...

i have kept snakes on and off since i was 20 im now 38 i have no idea

who most of these guys are. i have always been a lone individual 

and never followed any clubs or memberships ! does every one ?!? i think not

I may have to now .......


----------



## wohic

perhaps a flyer , not too political, or complicated, could be penned by Chris, that could be left with pet shops, to make the non internet keepers more aware.

I could cover about half a dozen shops easily.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Lone figures*

Hi SteveL, 

Sadly the days of being a loner are gone.

The fact is that politics has made this happen.

R


----------



## wohic

SteveL said:


> Non of my replies were aimed at the thread starter ...
> 
> i have seen these threads over the years and avoided them ...
> 
> i have kept snakes on and off since i was 20 im now 38 i have no idea
> 
> who most of these guys are. i have always been a lone individual
> 
> and never followed any clubs or memberships ! does every one ?!? i think not
> 
> I may have to now .......


It makes sense to 'be in the loop' I have kept since i was 8, I am now 40, things have come a very long way, and its only been in the last few years I have shared my interests and passion, and become aware of the FBH etc, 
I believe baby steps can be the start of greater things. supporting an organisation that supports us all as keepers, its a good way to go.


----------



## Dan

Rory, whether my powers are psychic, psychotic or non existant i use plain computer literacy.

The more you deal with politicians and the government the more you sound like them.

I didnt claim Chris has no rights, i just made it clear i knew he had seen my post and that i watched you drop off line and then come back on at the same time as Chris.
I could have said i rang you both to confirm it, but i didnt.

Yeah, same old excuses. We have already had time, politics and apathy - the same ones that have always been used. In fairness though there has been no mention of money this time.

Rome wasn't built in a day, no.
But it WAS built by the little people and more importantly it was built.

These people have had more time and resources than they SHOULD have needed. They have failed to use it efficiently.
When a football manager does not live up to his promises he is thrown out yet we leave our "government" in situ despite the lack of results.

I appreciate you have a livelihood and friendships to protect but eventually if you carry on down this course you WILL have to stand up and be counted rather than just asking others to do it.

For the rest of you reading this and asking "what can i do" or wishing you could improve the situation. The answer is simple, get together and fight. I'll offer help to ANYONE that genuinely wants it, all you have to do is contact me.


----------



## DeanThorpe

ok i have to go to bed now, desperately.. who thinks getting the celebs who keep reptiles involved is one of the quickest [and no doubt dirtiest] ways of getting huge support and awareness here?
like erm... steve irwins wife, leonardo decprio..who i can only assuem is still soemwhat famous..he has an iggy he loves to bits... ill no doubt think of more as i sleep.
or we coul dget soemone inside big brother and just start going potty about th ehole thing 
ok not helpfull, was a joke.

back tomoz morn.


----------



## DeanThorpe

double post


----------



## Dan

wohic said:


> perhaps a flyer , not too political, or complicated, could be penned by Chris, that could be left with pet shops, to make the non internet keepers more aware.
> 
> I could cover about half a dozen shops easily.


You want a shop to hand out flyers informing people of the impending end to the hobby? I doubt that would take off, why buy a reptile if it will be banned shortly?


----------



## Dan

DeanThorpe said:


> ok i have to go to bed now, desperately.. who thinks getting the celebs who keep reptiles involved is one of the quickest [and no doubt dirtiest] ways of getting huge support and awareness here?


Find me just one that will publicly go AGAINST the RSPCA, animal aid etc etc


----------



## ratboy

SteveL said:


> Non of my replies were aimed at the thread starter ...
> 
> i have seen these threads over the years and avoided them ...
> 
> i have kept snakes on and off since i was 20 im now 38 i have no idea
> 
> who most of these guys are. i have always been a lone individual
> 
> and never followed any clubs or memberships ! does every one ?!? i think not
> 
> I may have to now .......


I have to say that I have been an FBH member since I first heard about them back in the days of the CView forums... as said I dont think my animals will actually get banned... even if they say the viv needs to be as long as the snake... I could do it. As a matter of fact, for my adult ones, I already am.

That said, if it became apparent that some of the larger pythons were going to be hit... I would stand beside you when you have to fight for your right to be able to keep them.


----------



## DeanThorpe

reticulatus said:


> Find me just one that will publicly go AGAINST the RSPCA, animal aid etc etc


ok..ill try...


----------



## wohic

reticulatus said:


> You want a shop to hand out flyers informing people of the impending end to the hobby? I doubt that would take off, why buy a reptile if it will be banned shortly?


No, a flyer making people aware of the FBH. 

I am not a complete fool :whip:


----------



## Dan

wohic said:


> I am not a complete fool :whip:


That's me told:lol2:


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Jargonising*

Aaah Dan, 

*"I would like to ask what EXACTLY are our "guardians" are doing?*

We often see jargon like "save our hobby" followed by "join the ....... group/club/society etc etc" on the net but never see what they are actually doing or achieving (other than failures)."

Not being funny Dan, but surely using the phrase 'Stand up and be counted' is coigning phrases ?

Now l know that is being pedantic, but just a point, that by asking for new leadership is not best jostled by using the phrases they use themselves surely?

Okay, so what help are you offering those that contact you?

A coo?

This is not trying to place misadventure to this thread, but instead of asking people to join you, or ask for your help, why are you not joining the 'big fight?' And with the people that ask you for assistance where are you going to draw from?

PS: not sure about the telephone number business, l have moved, l hope you did not think of waking some poor sod in the middle of the night?

As said in my original, you have written some valid points and it is good to see this post livlier than was

Rory


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Golly, bed early huh?*

Jeepers Dan, 

Now you must have read my last post also, but did not answer it? 

No, like you l possess no special powers, but know common sense and logic.

Does this not also apply to you, in so far as the same comparison as Chris?

You know what we need is a Maggie Leadership, not another Tony.

With the FBH we have the former leadership, with watching you on the last couple of posts, we would have the latter. You lose steam.

You and l both know neither of us are suitable for a leadership position, [not that we are going for one], one is antagonistic and the other is authoritarian neither are ideal vocations for politics.

However, l am happy with our current leadership for all the flaws and failings that mankind can stand, but would not be happy with the type that you talk of.

As l said you write some valid points, but instead of trying to rally against current leadership skills why do you not focus on what is in place now and help to assist with current campaigning? Instead of writing with a view to install a fraction, this is not actual opposition nor is it apathy, but a mixture of the two - this is inside opposition.


I know you were very upset about the pet fair situations and would hate to think that all this is about the Exeter show and the legal cancellation of the show. Politics Dan, it was and is down to politics, not by a style of insider trading where upon our own side is trying to deflate the ability for shows to go ahead.

I know not of Brian Davies and his comments and so will not draw reference to them, nor do l need to stand defence trial for Chris Newman as he is perfectly capable of answering just as much as it would be perfectly logical not to.

But if you want to fight, then why are you not GENUINELY fighting with us instead of against us?

Speaking like the politicians?

An interesting point with a certain amount of validity to it, however, sometimes the laymen are shot down, for they do not talk the talk, nor walk the walk. Dan, in todays climate, so radically changing, we all have to learn to talk the talk,[not multiscreen dump it] and we all need to learn how to walk the silly walk too!

It would appear that my antagonistic responses challenge what you write, perhaps, but only because you are utilising energy that would be far better served to work alongside the pro rather than only appearing to do so.

I trust this post finds you well

Rory Matier


----------



## purejurrasic

I cant remember who said it, and dont wana re read the whole thread, but the membership of clubs and societies is worthwhile.

One of the main reasons this hobby is under attack is that there are those out there who do not keep thier reps in the best conditions, that dont feed properly, that do fail to provide heat and water. There are those out there who Will import 100 wc animals in the hope that 10 or 20 make it, there are those who think a big snake is a status symbol and dont know how to look after it.

Societies and club encourage all keepers to join together, to chat, to learn, to teach, to share. They help to increase the general level of care in all areas. They DO serve as a focal point for keepers.

I must say in all honesty, my society is affilliated to the FBH, but has not recieved any communication from them regarding any law, present or future. 

I would have thought there would have been some release down to the 'small' clubs to keep them informed and to rally support.

However, my main piont is that if all keepers kept thier animals well, then it remove much of the power behind the antis argument.


----------



## Athravan

I have to say, that personally, as a hobbyist - and from a business point of view, I feel unsupported by the larger organisations such as the FBH and the IHS.

I have a business membership with both, and the tortoise trust, and the BTS.... but that is the only way I know of to support the hobby. There don't seem to be any campaign, fundraising, flyer handing, any sort of options for me as a hobbyist or a business. Just a section for business owners with flyers to download to advertise the FBH would surely get new members.

(Loose numbers!) 90% of my customers do not know there are organisations supporting the hobby. 95% of my customers do not know about any trade shows, and 99.9% of my customers will have absolutely no clue about the AWB or any legislation that would affect the hobby.

I have a good selection of customers who have kept reptiles for a long time - some going back decades. But they don't bother with the internet. There are certain keepers who really do rely on shops and other breeders/friends.. who don't join forums and read the news about the hobby.

I really hope that the organisations could perhaps ask for support and help from businesses and hobbyists who can help them.... I think a lot of people would be willing to help, even if it's just handing out flyers to get more members, or doing fundraising events for a newspaper advertising campaign. But no one ever seems to ask the general masses for help, no one gives them options of how they can help even if they want to, there is no organised campaign of what are we doing, where are we going, just a vague statement of aim... and honestly I don't feel like I am helping by just giving them £50 or whatever for membership, feels like I'm just paying lip service.

I wish that there was more dictation on motivation from the powers that be in this industry, but I do also think that it should be a positive type of motivation - we CAN succeed... not all this doom and gloom and scaremongering.

People keep constantly saying "support the hobby!" but what the hell does that mean? I'm a member of all the organisations, I made it to 2 of the shows even though it was driving 3 hours to get there... I have a noticeboard in my shop with information about joining societies (that I had to write and print as no actual flyer seems available). I would like to do more, but the option just doesn't seem to be there (or if it is, it is behind the scenes.. ) I am not a political person, but I would be more than happy to help with whatever I could to increase awareness of the hobby and campaign for better legislation or work against the antis, and I think you would be amazed at how many people would be willing to work for the hobby if they were just asked, and given a direction to help with.


----------



## Chris Newman

I would like to ask what EXACTLY are our "guardians" are doing?

I will list the current legislative work being done:

Animal Welfare Act
Dangerous Wild Animals Act
Non-Native Species review
European protected Species Regulations
Animal Transport Order
Animal Health & Welfare Strategy

The above is a few of the legislation work that the FBH is involved with currently. Along with these there are various other works ongoing, such as taking the lead in developing the Codes of Practice under the Animal Welfare Act.

I would like to ask what your thoughts are on the growing feeling that those most in the limelight for "trying" to save our hobby are actually far from the image we are led to believe?

I am not aware of any _“growing feeling that those most in the limelight for "trying" to save our hobby are actually far from the image we are led to believe?” _I am afraid you need to be a little specific in your innuendo 

Unfortunately legislation and political work is not very sexy and most people would prefer to discuss ‘oral sex’ rather than politics, not unreasonably in my view. Nevertheless the political work is important (if not as much fun) and I have and do post on this and other forums on occasions to keep people informed. 

If people would like more information on the daily work of the FBH or REPTA then I am sure we could provide it via this or other forums. However, when this has been done in the passed we get accused of ‘scare mongering’ – seems perhaps the old saying is true: you can please some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time!


----------



## Athravan

Chris Newman said:


> I would like to ask what EXACTLY are our "guardians" are doing?
> 
> I will list the current legislative work being done:
> 
> Animal Welfare Act
> Dangerous Wild Animals Act
> Non-Native Species review
> European protected Species Regulations
> Animal Transport Order
> Animal Health & Welfare Strategy
> 
> The above is a few of the legislation work that the FBH is involved with currently. Along with these there are various other works ongoing, such as taking the lead in developing the Codes of Practice under the Animal Welfare Act.
> 
> I would like to ask what your thoughts are on the growing feeling that those most in the limelight for "trying" to save our hobby are actually far from the image we are led to believe?
> 
> I am not aware of any _“growing feeling that those most in the limelight for "trying" to save our hobby are actually far from the image we are led to believe?” _I am afraid you need to be a little specific in your innuendo
> 
> Unfortunately legislation and political work is not very sexy and most people would prefer to discuss ‘oral sex’ rather than politics, not unreasonably in my view. Nevertheless the political work is important (if not as much fun) and I have and do post on this and other forums on occasions to keep people informed.
> 
> If people would like more information on the daily work of the FBH or REPTA then I am sure we could provide it via this or other forums. However, when this has been done in the passed we get accused of ‘scare mongering’ – seems perhaps the old saying is true: you can please some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time!


I would love to be kept up to date with information, scary or not... and with ways in which I could possibly help  Perhaps if it was on a FBH forum then people could choose whether to read? At the end of the day if people don't want information they don't have to read it... and if they don't like what they read, thats hardly your fault. But I know I for one would be very interested in having in depth updates.... should you or someone on your staff have time to do so


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## madaboutreptiles

Its good to see that this issue is starting to get some "airtime" I like most other reptile keepers was aware that new legislation was being considered but had no idea of the implications.

I wonder just how many reptile keepers on this forum and others are actually a member of any kind of reptile Organisation, i for one am not but is going to change after reading these posts.

As has been sugested already I think we need more good publicity for the hobby. The trade need to be more involved after all its going to be our hobby at risk but it will be their source of income so the stakes are high.

The first thing we all need to do, as I see it anyway is join an Organisation. this will at least give us the power to show just how many people actually keep reptiles in the UK.

The second thing has to be publicity, get the trade involved. posters up in the shops, hand out leflets each time someone buys a new reptile.

I dont claim to be any kind of expert but just a couple of thoughts

I would be curious to know just how many paid up members the FBH has?


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## brittone05

I think another big problems is that a large percentage of reptile keepers don't actually "understand" the whole politics thing.

I for one hold my hands up and admit that probably 75% of it goes wayyyy over my head. Now I know that some anti groups and certain people in power love the fact that they can tanlge us up in technical jargon and that most of us don't really understand the difference between all the abbreviations and such that come into play on the political agenda.

THIS is the reason why i am glad that as a keeper, we have people like Chris, Rory, Julia and all the others whose efforts go unseen working it out on our behalf! 

I know that, if asked for, things will be posted in laymans terms and if I don't understand something, there is someone on hand to ask - if the FBH and all the guys listed in this post were not there, do you really think the opposition would explain so patiently?

Again, with the whole scaremngering thing - I would rather have someone be brutally honest and tell me this WILL happen it is just a case of when than have someone acy all apathetic and say "they can't do it, it will never happen" only to wake up one day with a knock at the door to find my animals under threat of being taken away 

Chris - I have told Rory and I will say publically also, ANYTHING I can do a a keeper, researcher or whatever - I am happy to do so. Things run much deeper than simply writing to an MP once and I am perfectly happy to stick my neck out and face whatever I need to 

EDIt - I also agree wholeheartedly about gettin the info out there to non internet users abou the FBH and such - could we maybe have small teams doing research in thier local areas finding out how many reptile keepers there actually are?? Just a thought and a bit of a long shot but surely if we are going to fight it now we can go all out and fight it properly


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## madaboutreptiles

I really think that publicity is the key, people have to know whats going on

I am sure that most new reptile keepers have no idea that the legislation is going to change

They have no idea that there are organisations that are trying to prevent this happening

But also bear in mind that legislation is not always a bad thing. how many of you have been in a pet shop that sells reptiles and thought oh my god look at the conditions they are keeping those in. They should'nt be allowed to have a license!!!!!!

But this is what the people against the hobby see and it just gives them more power to get it banned

I think we must get the trade involved and get these shoody pet shops sorted out if we are to have any chance at all!!

sorry for repeating myself


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## ratboy

The easiest way of finding out roughly how many reptile keepers there are is to ask the people that sell food how many customers they have. Obviously this will not include those who 'grow their own' but it will certainly give a good indication as to how many we are talking about.

I believe this has been done before and the figures I heard were that there were nearly as many reptiles being kept as there were cats or dogs. We had a group a few years ago called Reptile Awareness which tried to set itself up as a PR arm to the hobby. On the back of this research a poster was created called "Move Over Rover" which was going to go into shops to advertise just how popular the hobby was. For reasons I will not go into, this never happened and the group was disbanded.


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## brittone05

Well, if necessary, I am happy to researcha nd contact livefood suppliers etc to try to help find out numbers - I can't travel as I don't drive, I can't really do a great deal being a stay at home mum of 3 BUT i have my tinternet and phone and am not afraid to use them where necessary


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## madaboutreptiles

I agree 100% I am more than happy to do anyhting that may help. I am now joining the FBH, I only knew it existed in the past 6 months but I have kept snakes for 7-8 years?

If they can send me posters, leaflets etc I can make sure they get posted in shops etc in my area (Norfolk)

Just let us know what we need to do, i am sure there are many people more than willing to help?


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## Chris Newman

For those that do not know me perhaps it would be helpful if I post something about myself and my background. I do not post often and I am notoriously slow at responding to emails, one of my many faults. However, I am always available by phone should anyone need information or help. (023 8044 0999)



*Chris Newman*​
Born in 1959, he has been an animal keeper from an early age, acquiring his first snake at the age of five. He developed a particular interest in venomous creatures and acquired his first venomous snakes, Mojave rattlesnakes, aged ten. He has subsequently kept over 250 species of reptiles and amphibians and has bred over 80 species, some for the first time in captivity. One of the notable achievements was breeding day geckos (_Phelsuma_) in 1972. He has also kept numerous other non-reptilian species - invertebrates, fish, birds and mammals. He currently specialises in “exotic” mammals, notably porcupines and possums, both of which frequently breed – probably the only regular breeding programme of these species in the UK.

Chris is profoundly dyslexic and left school in 1976 uneducated and unable to read or write. Due to lack of formal education employment in academia was not forthcoming so on leaving school Chris supported himself with various occupations, mostly associated with his other interest in plants (horticulture). A spell at a zoo, Cotswold Wild Life Park, convinced him that a zoological career was not for him. In the 1980’s Chris spent some ten years working (unpaid) in collaboration with Dr Bernard Whaler at the Queen Elizabeth Collage (University of London) developing more effective and human methods of extracting venom from animals. He was the first to develop a technique to extract venom from live black widow spiders, as shown on the BBC programme Tomorrow’s World & developed and refined methods of extracting toxins from snakes, spiders, scorpions, centipedes and fish. 

Chris was the publisher of the Reptilian magazine, the UK’s first specialist reptile & amphibian publication, from 1991 to 2003. He is currently the chairman of the Federation of British Herpetologists and the Federation of Companion Animal Societies. He is consultant to the Reptile and Exotic Pet Trade Association & advisor to the Pet Care Trust and National Association of Private Animals Keepers on herpetological (reptile & amphibian) issues, as well as a consultant to the fresh produce (fruit) industry on arachnological and herpetological pests. He has also acted in an advisory capacity for Customs and Excise, the police and Local Authorities. He has had numerous articles and papers published, both in journals and magazines, as well as authoring several books on the subject of reptiles. 

His current work includes working to improve animal welfare and defending the rights for people to keep animals in captivity. Chris is a passionate advocate that both humans and animals benefit from animal husbandry and the keeping of animals as companions. He has always spoken out against the animal rights lobby, which is increasingly influential politically, sometimes at considerable personal risk. Pet keepers are now the regular target for animal rights activists and many so-called welfare groups are actively involved in anti-pet-keeping strategies.

Chris is directly involved with many governmental Working Groups and legislative reviews, such as the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, CITES, Non-native Species. He has been working extensively with the Animal welfare Act since its inception. Chris also works on a voluntary basis manning a 24 hr helpline for animal keepers. This encompasses a whole range of services and offers support and advice about a wide range of issues, from helping keepers who have problems with animal licencing, Local Authorities, RSPCA etc, to providing legal and emotional support. 

Today Chris lives with his partner, Jan, and four children (boys) in Southampton. He and the family maintain a large collection of reptiles, amphibians, fish, invertebrates and mammals. The benefits of animal keeping are apparent with the boys, all of whom have learning difficulties, particularly with the youngest child who suffers from ADHD and Autism. 

In addition to their interest in animals, the family are dedicated amateur paleontologists, and have assembled one of the largest privately owned collections of non-cephalopod mollusca (dead old snails) in the UK. The family have discovered many species new to the UK and continually break new ground in the quest to further knowledge of UK Eocene fauna. Chris’s particular interests are in the taxonomic lineage of the genus _Campanile_, which includes the largest ever gastropod (snail), the now extinct _Campanile giganteum_. 

*Current Positions *
 Chair – Federation of British Herpetologists (since 2001)
 Chair – Federation of Companion Animal Societies (since 2004)
 Associate member – Associated Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare (since 2003)
 Member – Sustainable Users Network (since 2000)
 Member – Pet Care Trust, Livestock Advisory Panel (since 2000) 
 Member – Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime (since 2001)
 Member – SSPCA Advisory Panel on Animal Health & Welfare (since 2006)
 Member – Animal Network for Wales (since 2007)
 Advisor – National Association of Private Animal Keepers (since 2001)
 Consultant – Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association (since 2005)

*Current Governmental Working Groups*
 Member – DEFRA Working Group on Non-Native Species 
 Member – DEFRA Working Group on CITES Article 8.2
 Member – EIG Working Group on Companion Animals

*Previous Governmental Working Groups*
 Chair - DEFRA Working Group on Pet Fairs (2003/2004)
 Member – DEFRA Working Group on Pet Vending (2003/2004)
 Member – DEFRA Working Group on Definition of Welfare (2004)

*Recent Presentation *
 Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime - (2004)
 Hampshire Police Wildlife Crime Conference - (2004)
 Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime - (2005)
 Greater London Authority Conference on Animal Welfare – (2005) 
 Chartered Institute of Environmental Health Animal Welfare Conference – (2005)
 EU Wildlife Trade Enforcement Co-ordination Workshop – (2005)
 Police and Customs Wildlife Enforcement Officers Conference - (2005)
 Essex Animal Welfare Forum – (2005)
 Hampshire Police Wildlife Crime Conference - (2005)
 Police and Customs Wildlife Enforcement Officers Conference - (2005)
 Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime - (2006)
 Veterinary Association for Arbitration & Jurisprudence - (2006) 
 Ornamental & Aquatic Trade Association - (2006) 
 Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime - (2007)


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## ratboy

I know this is going to sound like I am getting at people and I really am not ... but why do people need to be told what to do ?

The FBH is currently working on the list of things that Chris has listed above and I agree with Christy that it would be very informative if the FBH posted on the forum about what is happening and how things are going... good news, bad news, implications, the lot... but that is all they should be asked to do. I dont think that they should be asked to lead us all and tell us what to do (He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy .... in very loud shirts).

I have set up a care sheet site. All of the care sheets that are on it at the moment came originally from the FBH and most were created with the assistance of Proteus Reptile Trust. These sheets were willingly given to me and people I have asked to write sheets for me have all been more than willing to do so. All I had to do is to contact Nils and say "I would like to help... this is what I have in mind". 

There is nothing stopping anyone from getting an idea, contacting the FBH and simply asking "If I do this, will it help ?"


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## wohic

Steve, some people are Ideas people, and that is great, But some (no disrespect ment) will not have a clue what to do, so saying 'what can I do to help?' is valid, and helpful.

I would say, join a society, that is something everyone can do, and it will help.
We need to pull together, fractions offering to do this and that will just further dislocate the hobby, 1 plan of action will be seen as much stronger than several smaller ones.

What is it they say ? united we stand...........


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## madaboutreptiles

wohic said:


> Steve, some people are Ideas people, and that is great, But some (no disrespect ment) will not have a clue what to do, so saying 'what can I do to help?' is valid, and helpful.
> 
> I would say, join a society, that is something everyone can do, and it will help.
> We need to pull together, fractions offering to do this and that will just further dislocate the hobby, 1 plan of action will be seen as much stronger than several smaller ones.
> 
> What is it they say ? united we stand...........


Agreed, it's a case of pooling the idea's and then implementing them.

The best way I can see to do this is to join a society, put your ideas to that society and then that society organising the implementaion of the campaign.

Probably quoting "tell us what to do" was a poor choice of words but someone has to lead and coordinate us all to get the maximum results.

You can bet that the opposition are well coordinated, we have to the same if not we dont stand a chance?

just a thought


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## ratboy

True enough Julia, but there is nothing to stop people doing stuff like designing posters to put up in local shops... we have enough talented people on the forum that design signatures and things. Forum members could come up with a design themselves then go to the FBH and say "Look what we have created for you to use".

The point is, I doubt that anyone on the FBH committee knows the first thing about poster design. But they can quite easily look at what you have done and comment on it so it can be reworked until suitable.


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## LeeH

as mentioned most petshop would probably be reluctant to put it up as it would ruin trade...lets face it they need to make a living...
if its effecting pet animals as a whole why is it only this forum ive seen it discussed indepth..i have only seen it made a sticky here so maybe an idea to make it an important subject on bigger forums like livefoods etc


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## ratboy

rankindude2 said:


> as mentioned most petshop would probably be reluctant to put it up as it would ruin trade...lets face it they need to make a living...
> if its effecting pet animals as a whole why is it only this forum ive seen it discussed indepth..i have only seen it made a sticky here so maybe an idea to make it an important subject on bigger forums like livefoods etc


A poster saying something like "Did you know how popular reptiles are as pets" is not going to ruin trade Lee. As with everything... it does not all have to be doom and gloom.

Posters could also promote reptile keeping... "Buy a snake - Allergies not included"

Traders could add £1 or £2 to the price of each animal sold and donate it to the FBH.


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## wohic

rankindude2 said:


> as mentioned most petshop would probably be reluctant to put it up as it would ruin trade...lets face it they need to make a living...
> if its effecting pet animals as a whole why is it only this forum ive seen it discussed indepth..i have only seen it made a sticky here so maybe an idea to make it an important subject on bigger forums like livefoods etc


promoting the FBH will not ruin sales. we need to get people to join these societys, from there they can be made more aware.

we need to educate, and softly softly where the shops etc are concerned, is the way to go


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## Guest

surely having one big organisation is better than having several smaller outfits whom from reading this thread are not talking to each other?


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## wohic

SteveL said:


> surely having one big organisation is better than having several smaller outfits whom from reading this thread are not talking to each other?


My point Exactly : victory:


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## ratboy

It would if it existed Steve... but as far as I am aware the FBH is not a big organisation. It is a group of people that give up their time to fight for the hobby politically.

If people need to be given jobs and managed, then the managers will need to offer their services. Maybe the people that run the local clubs would be a good start.


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## LeeH

SteveL said:


> surely having one big organisation is better than having several smaller outfits whom from reading this thread are not talking to each other?


agreed :no1:


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## madaboutreptiles

SteveL said:


> surely having one big organisation is better than having several smaller outfits whom from reading this thread are not talking to each other?


 
for sure:smile:


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## pam b

SteveL said:


> surely having one big organisation is better than having several smaller outfits whom from reading this thread are not talking to each other?


That may have been true a few years back, but i beleive they do all comunicate with each other quite well these days, they just dont advertise the fact that they do.


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## Guest

purejurrasic said:


> I must say in all honesty, my society is affilliated to the FBH, but has not recieved any communication from them regarding any law, present or future. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> I would have thought there would have been some release down to the 'small' clubs to keep them informed and to rally support.





pam b said:


> That may have been true a few years back, but i beleive they do all comunicate with each other quite well these days, they just dont advertise the fact that they do.


 
after reading prejurasics comments i think its safe to say they dont ..


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## wohic

One organisation, for arguments sake, the FBH........ (makes sence to me)

with many arms reaching out to all Herp /exotics/ keepers via local societys/ clubs etc.

We need people to carry their FBH membership with pride,know what it means to be a member, give insentives to be a member..... get more shops involved in offering small discounts to membership holders, perhaps a bi-monthly magazine that could be sold through retail outlets (I think more pro active members would need to be on board to offer this though)


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## brittone05

Agreed Julia - it is fair time that retailers begun supporting the people who fight for thier businesses too


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## pam b

SteveL said:


> after reading prejurasics comments i think its safe to say they dont ..


I think taking just one comment and then generalising isnt a fair cross section to make an assumption on.


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## ratboy

wohic said:


> One organisation, for arguments sake, the FBH........ (makes sence to me)
> 
> with many arms reaching out to all Herp /exotics/ keepers via local societys/ clubs etc.
> 
> We need people to carry their FBH membership with pride,know what it means to be a member, give insentives to be a member..... get more shops involved in offering small discounts to membership holders, perhaps a bi-monthly magazine that could be sold through retail outlets (I think more pro active members would need to be on board to offer this though)


Totally agree... although the mag should prob be 6 monthly given how fast politics happens 

Whether it is orchestrated by local societies, people doing it off their own backs or a mixture of the two. I personally could not care less provided something is actually happening 

There are all sorts of things that can be done to raise awareness and cash ... fetes, fun-runs, sponsored whatevers .... anything animal aid can do, by rights, we should be able to do too.


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## gargoyle1980

Well, I have to go to work now, running late as I've sat here and read through this topic. Anything I can do, just let me know. You all have my support 100%.


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## Guest

ratboy said:


> True enough Julia, but there is nothing to stop people doing stuff like designing posters to put up in local shops... we have enough talented people on the forum that design signatures and things. Forum members could come up with a design themselves then go to the FBH and say "Look what we have created for you to use".
> 
> The point is, I doubt that anyone on the FBH committee knows the first thing about poster design. But they can quite easily look at what you have done and comment on it so it can be reworked until suitable.


Thats a good idea! there could be competitions.. run to create a bit of interest and create some fun for the younger members ..
modernising these federations a little might help the cause as well .
This hobby is no joke i know but a lot of these federations come across as fuddy duddy to me no disrespect intended here but surely there needs to be more pro active younger members involved 
is there already i have no idea ..every thing seems so black and white 

modernise these associations may be the key to getting the younger people interested in joining ..also i never see any advertising on the classifieds to join etc etc....


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## ratboy

SteveL said:


> This hobby is no joke i know but a lot of these federations come across as fuddy duddy to me no disrespect intended here but surely there needs to be more pro active younger members involved


There was a Junior FBH a few years ago, I don't know if it is still active though. They had their own committee.


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## Guest

pam b said:


> I think taking just one comment and then generalising isnt a fair cross section to make an assumption on.


i agree it was one persons comments but one affiliated federation has been ignored ..how many more that hav'nt posted here eh!


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## King Of Dreams

_*A magazine if offered and sold through pet shops would be a great idea. It'd reach those who don't have access to/use the internet. Thus reaching a larger audience.

To be honest though, the FBH and other clubs/societies I feel is seriously outgunned. It is essentialy run by voluntary work with no paid expert help.

If any serious, big campaign is going to be made it's going to take more than a few posters in shops or a bi-monthly magazine. 

We need to get the press on our side to show the positive aspects of our hobby. 

We need to show that the great number of shops housing animals inappropriately is not reflective of the way the rest of us house our animals and that we are actually doing something about those shops.

We need to start countering the points that the opposition is making and start getting the public aware and on our side. *_


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## peaches

Ooh blimey long thread...right just to gather my thoughts on this.

One of my main thoughts, like has been said, is the amount of keepers that are NOT part of forums that are NOT on the internet and NOT part of any organisation, these are the people that we need to find.

BUT, say some of these people do join the FBH, OK they have the knowledge that their membership is going to help fund the work going on behind the scences....BUT how are they going to know?

Like I said I *do* support the FBH but have never recieved any information from them, apart from my card. As I am online an email every few months would be a great idea, for the rest, something in the post just saying what they have been doing. Like I said if your not part of the net, how do you know what's going on?

So, people saying, you've got to do something, join an organisation, great I have now what? Write to your MP? great OK I have now what?

I can only write every to MP's about the parts I _clearly_ understand, it takes a while but I do get there :lol2: The AWA is so complicated, in all honesty I don't know which part affects me next!!!!

So what I see now as what we (herpers on-line) to do, is reach the masses and the main focus must be the industry to do this. The Pet Shops, to reach their customers. The wholesalers etc. Businesses have to be more involved with this. And the societies need to help them reach out.


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## ratboy

I dont agree here KOD ... as said before, what we need to do is influence the Codes of Practice that will make up the AWB and fight any legislation that could potentially ban the keeping of any species. This work is already started by the FBH from what Chris wrote and what we need to do is support them and encourage the general public to think that banning the keeping of pets is not a good aim no matter what those pets are.

We need to raise money and we need to raise awareness... the positive aspects of our hobby are all well and good but the key thing is to encourage the mind set that banning animals is not fair on them or their keepers.


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## wohic

ratboy said:


> I dont agree here KOD ... as said before, what we need to do is influence the Codes of Practice that will make up the AWB and fight any legislation that could potentially ban the keeping of any species. This work is already started by the FBH from what Chris wrote and what we need to do is support them and encourage the general public to think that banning the keeping of pets is not a good aim no matter what those pets are.
> 
> We need to raise money and we need to raise awareness.


 
People that write for reptile magazines could help raise this awareness. perhaps the FBH could request a little advertising space in the mags and an artical could be written reptile clubs and societys.


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## ratboy

wohic said:


> People that write for reptile magazines could help raise this awareness. perhaps the FBH could request a little advertising space in the mags and an artical could be written reptile clubs and societys.


Good idea ... I'll mention it to Angi


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## wohic

ratboy said:


> Good idea ... I'll mention it to Angi


Ahhhhhh my cunning plan worked :lol2:


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## ratboy

wohic said:


> Ahhhhhh my cunning plan worked :lol2:


LOL .... Doh.... way too subtle for me :lol2:


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## DeanThorpe

EVERY magazine devoted to herps should do an article on this hole thing.
its in everyones interest..plus being a mag.. they should have the skills to write it well and leave the readers in a good state of understanding on the hole situation.


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## DeanThorpe

oh i just thought, a guy posted here in the intro section who was into herps and doing soem tv programmes on them... ill try find details.

also jerry cole now has ties to the bbc due to recent programming right? hang ont he bbc is owned by the same ppl the rspca are i guess.. bugger on that one.


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## Guest

Why dont they post on classifieds? surely if they did it might help raise a few sheckles to campaign better ..

Keep this thread on page one !!!


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## ratboy

SteveL said:


> Why dont they post on classifieds? surely if they did it might help raise a few sheckles to campaign better ..
> 
> Keep this thread on page one !!!


Added enthusiasm at shows would be good too. There is always and FBH table, but there is rarely anyone there talking about current issues.


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## Guest

ratboy said:


> Added enthusiasm at shows would be good too. There is always and FBH table, but there is rarely anyone there talking about current issues.


maybe they need to fund a good pr person then ?!? 

im considering joining one of these federations but need to be convinced im joining the best one ..


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## pam b

ratboy said:


> Added enthusiasm at shows would be good too. There is always and FBH table, but there is rarely anyone there talking about current issues.


Thats because Chris's shirts scare them off,
*runs off quickly before Chris gets the kippers out*:lol2:


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## ratboy

pam b said:


> Thats because Chris's shirts scare them off,
> *runs off quickly before Chris gets the kippers out*:lol2:


That would explain the sun glasses on the table.


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## ratboy

I just wanted to be the author of the post that overtook the oral sex thread


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## DeanThorpe

haha,,, congrats on that one.. but any posts you have made in that thread should be deducted from the total posts... did u post in it? if so.. i didnt so i win


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## sami

I've been reading all of the threads on this subject with great interest, but have rarely said anything.

some things I would like to say at this point though:

It has only been financial reasons that have prevented us from joining the IHS and FBH this year, this year I spent some time unemployed for the first (and hopefully last!) time in my life so things like the mortgage and the animals took priority.

What is not clear though is what exactly my £xx pays for when I join. what is it used for/where is it spent etc?


I also agree with the veiwpoint that something should be done by the majority but again am not sure exactly what we can do to help. I'll happily pen a letter to my MP but for the fact that I know it will do nothing, in all likelyhood it will never even be read by him. this dampens my enthusiasm for writing the letter.

It is all well and good calling the british public apathetic (something that in a lot of ways I agree completely with) but honestly, while most people would love to help they have no clue how.

Take bank charges for example, for years people have been claiming them back but until someone published a web site with simple steps to take hardly anyone bothered or even knew about it. Somone publishes a simple 1,2,3 guide for doing it and everyone was at it. Similar situation here. suggestions anyone?

If we want to challenge or question any aspect of the law surrounding our hobby who do we talk to? Who do we send the letter(s) to? What will our letter(s) acheive?


Simple things can be done by everyone, myself included, like fundraising etc but what would actually happen to those fund that we raise? On what will they be spent? where can they be spent to benefit the hobby or help prevent this from happening?

another thing to consider is the "antis" raise their money from people who won't miss it (except when they use public aka our money). We do not have the luxury of being able to afford/arrange fundraising functions attended by lords and ladies, celebs, leading figures in industry, the government etc all bringing their bottomless chequebooks with them, the only fund raising we can do is amongst ourselves and fellow keepers.

I can almost guarantee that the "general public" won't be handing over cash to any of us any time soon even if we explain it clearly and rationally. why should they? If they (the majority of the general public) don't care enough to donate money to causes researching cures to cancer or AIDS why on earth wil they part with their hard-earned to save a hobby they have nothing to do with? who can honestly blame them?

this leaves keepers themselves as almost the solde avenue 'we' have for raising funds. how much can we realistically expect to raise and (again) on what will this money be spent? As passionate as I am about the hobby i'd be hard pushed to spare more than a couple of hundred quid, again a drop inthe ocean when compared to the many millions the "antis" have at their disposal.

If anyone has any *sensible* suggestions of something *contsructive, relevant and useful *that can be done then you'll have the full backing of myself and Sami. 

fundraising for fundraisings sake I will not get involved with (back to my original points about £££ and what happens to it) neither will I involve myself with any fundraising activities that do not have a *specific, worthwhile *and most importantly *achievable* goal/point.

The FBH/IHS will continue to get my full support (whatever it's worth) but *more* money will not be forthcoming unless it is for a specific and clearly stated goal.

So if anyone has any suggestion about what we can actually do to help we'll help with all of the facilities, funds and passion available to us.

I will not however do things that won't help (other than making the people involved feel like they are doing something/enforce their ideas of their own importance)

I will expalin this statement to avoid offending the inevitable people who will ass-u-me i'm talking about them. This is intended as input to the discussion *not* as a dig at any poster on these boards.

what I mean by this:

Writing a letter to my MP. time spent 2 hours. result - nothing. A letter in the bin and if i'm really lucky a fill-in-the-blanks letter thanking me for my letter.

Raising funds for the FBH/IHS - again pointless. I won't deny that more money for the organisations will help but as I said earlier it would need to be something specific (example below)

Raisnig funds for the FBH/IHS so they can do something specific/challenge something or someone specific I can see the point in. Clear (and *clearly stated*) goals are a must. 

I also think that as much as it is upto us to do something about this bodies like the IHS/FBH should be doing more and doing it loudly and publically. I'm not saying they don't do much and I have great respect for some of the things they have done, what I would like to see is a little more transparency. It all goes back to the earlier point in my post (athravan also touched on it): They already have money, where does it go and what does it do?? Why will giving them more help?

Money would be *much* more forthcoming if attitudes changed slightly.

In stead of "join clubs/societies...it will help" I'd much prefer to see from the bodies themselves:

"join us and your £xx will go towards X,Y and of course Z, also please get involved with our many fundraisnig activities, we are currently raising money to try and..."

See the difference?

what is seen at the minute is "here's your card, that'll be £20 please" and "people need to join in order to save the hobby"

what I would rather see is:

"this is what we need to do, this is what it will achieve. This is how it would effect you and this is why it's your responsibility to help. Please help all you can with fundraising/donations. Our target is £xxxxxxx."

I would also be interested to see actual answers to some of the questions Dan raised, the posts made in reply actually gave zero in the way of substantial answers to his in the most part very valid points.

Someone at the IHS/FBH needs to stand up and state "this is what we want to do, this is what we need to do it, this is why it needs to be done" in a clear and concise manner. No spin, no bull no infighting or instantly getting defensive.

I'll also make sure this gets raised and discussed a bit more at the next notts FBH meeting.

Sorry for rambling on.

Mason


----------



## hogboy

I joined the FBH 2 years ago, and apart from an automatic payment 
of my subscription, i have had no mail or even an email in that time.
Surely the odd email newsletter wouldn't go amiss, after all they dont even need to pay for stamps !!


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Good thread*

Okay, 

This has turned out to be a good thread.

It certainly has aroused interest on and in here, but if it was required to take this discussion further, would passionate parties want to discuss this further to see what could be done, and how to take action on threads like this?

If this is the case:

TSKA-Rainbow: Event Management;

Will organize 'an audience with the Animal Welfare Act' this will include guest speakers such as the likes of Chris Newman, ministers and so on.

We will plan it for later this year, and from this point on will commence organization of structure for its itinerary.

Are you interested enough to attend?

Here you can listen to the politics of then up to now, and beyond, how the political 'nerds' are working etc, etc and more importantly it will give keepers the opportunity to raise questions and if need be allow the hecklers amongst you to raise your doubts.

If so let me hear your views

Rory Matier
TSKA-Rainbow: Event Management


----------



## wohic

As long as there is a way for me to get there (might have to hire Gremlin Rides ) I will be there, be it train, taxi or a lift.

you have my support.


----------



## Athravan

If the drive is doable within a single day I would make every effort to attend such an event...

If it could perhaps be recorded and uploaded to a website for those who could not attend, perhaps a video would say more than an essay or a newsletter could.


----------



## ratboy

wohic said:


> As long as there is a way for me to get there (might have to hire Gremlin Rides ) I will be there, be it train, taxi or a lift.
> 
> you have my support.


If it's North Julia... jump on a Train to Surrey, and I'll take you.


----------



## sami

I would certainly attend. A chance to actually question real people involved would be welcome.

Mason


----------



## wohic

ratboy said:


> If it's North Julia... jump on a Train to Surrey, and I'll take you.


 
thanks steve


----------



## Guest

sounds like a plan too me


----------



## madaboutreptiles

Sounds good to me too, I am now filling in my membership for the FBH but the chances of me being the UK at the time of the meeting are slim (I also miss most of the shows as well) but I would make every effort to be there if I am home for sure


----------



## hogboy

I'm happy to print small runs of posters/ flyers etc when i can.

Just took a look at the FBH site, hadn't looked at it for a while, and
the most recent newsletter is dated summer 2004, in fact it looks like no real 
updates on the site in nearly 3 years.
Just very surprised at the lack of fresh info on there.


----------



## sami

hogboy said:


> I'm happy to print small runs of posters/ flyers etc when i can.
> 
> Just took a look at the FBH site, hadn't looked at it for a while, and
> the most recent newsletter is dated summer 2004, in fact it looks like no real
> updates on the site in nearly 3 years.
> Just very surprised at the lack of fresh info on there.


goes back to what I was saying earlier....

where does the money go? If further funds became available what would they be directed into?

You'd be hard pushed to find another group like this that charges for membership but still either cannot offord, cannot justify or cannot be arsed even to send out a single news letter (or similar) in a year. 

Mason


----------



## Guest

hogboy said:


> I'm happy to print small runs of posters/ flyers etc when i can.
> 
> Just took a look at the FBH site, hadn't looked at it for a while, and
> the most recent newsletter is dated summer 2004, in fact it looks like no real
> updates on the site in nearly 3 years.
> Just very surprised at the lack of fresh info on there.


Thats really not what i would consider a good group to join then ...
no emails about whats going on and no updates online... 

No Thanks


----------



## ratboy

In their defence, there were FBH Conferences in 2003, 2004 and 2005 which you could attend and ask any questions you wanted of the committee. Which were actually excellent with guest speakers etc. They were even open to non members, members just got in a lot cheaper.


----------



## Athravan

ratboy said:


> In their defence, there were FBH Conferences in 2003, 2004 and 2005 which you could attend and ask any questions you wanted of the committee. Which were actually excellent with guest speakers etc.


Doesn't help the people who paid in 2006 and 2007 though :Na_Na_Na_Na:And it's meant to be UK wide.. not just those who can be in the area where there is a conference. With email so easy and free to send... I don't see why you wouldnt use it.. and considering the price people pay for membership, a 25p stamp isnt going to break the bank either.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*questions...*

Well perhaps initially questions can be raised about this at the 'audience'?

R


----------



## ratboy

Athravan said:


> Doesn't help the people who paid in 2006 and 2007 though :Na_Na_Na_Na:And it's meant to be UK wide.. not just those who can be in the area where there is a conference. With email so easy and free to send... I don't see why you wouldnt use it.. and considering the price people pay for membership, a 25p stamp isnt going to break the bank either.


LOL... No it doesn't. I was just pointing out that it has not always been the case that no information has been shared. As you rightly say though there was no conference last year and I have not heard of one for this year.


----------



## pam b

As most people who are in the FBH tend to be *Online people* , not all i'll give you that, but most are, wouldnt an *Online* newsletter be much easier and cost effective?


----------



## pam b

ratboy said:


> LOL... No it doesn't. I was just pointing out that it has not always been the case that no information has been shared. As you rightly say though there was no conference last year and I have not heard of one for this year.


It wasnt cost effective and people let them down as well at the last minute.
As one that did it myself i feel real bad about that.


----------



## DeanThorpe

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Okay,
> 
> This has turned out to be a good thread.
> 
> It certainly has aroused interest on and in here, but if it was required to take this discussion further, would passionate parties want to discuss this further to see what could be done, and how to take action on threads like this?
> 
> If this is the case:
> 
> TSKA-Rainbow: Event Management;
> 
> Will organize 'an audience with the Animal Welfare Act' this will include guest speakers such as the likes of Chris Newman, ministers and so on.
> 
> We will plan it for later this year, and from this point on will commence organization of structure for its itinerary.
> 
> Are you interested enough to attend?
> 
> Here you can listen to the politics of then up to now, and beyond, how the political 'nerds' are working etc, etc and more importantly it will give keepers the opportunity to raise questions and if need be allow the hecklers amongst you to raise your doubts.
> 
> If so let me hear your views
> 
> Rory Matier
> TSKA-Rainbow: Event Management


sorry for the quote, no real need but just so we ar eclear what we are talking about, 
we would attend for sure if it is atall possible, which it should be, location and timing dependant but thats a 99% yes anyway.

A couple of months ago i think, killroy [ah.. i dont know his name.. tv talk show guy.. cool bloke] did a reptile show where he had some demonstrators in with reptiles, including i believe a large rough neck monitor, anyway, was a good show and he is a sweet bloke..and its a argue/talk show so worth baring in mind, he has alwasy struck me as VERY political and very fair.


----------



## purejurrasic

I am up for a meeting, if it goes ahead just let us know where and when !


----------



## sparkle

I would attend a meeting.. I am a member of SEAS... scottish exotic animal society... who are affiliates of the FBH... so I would encourage all scots to join SEAS aswell


----------



## Snakes r grreat

Ive just been on the FBH website The Federation of British Herpetologists

Here is a quote from their membership page 

_*The FBH has been standing up for the rights of the Reptile keeper since 1995. The group consists of many well known and experienced Reptile keepers & Traders who are now stepping up the fight for our hobby. We at the Federation feel that strength in numbers is required to protect our hobby from the current threats. With this in mind we are offering everyone the chance to become a member of the Federation.*_
_*Upon becoming a member you will receive a regular newsletter with updates on the latest attacks against our hobby, as well as information about action being taken by the Federation on your behalf.*_

It seems that the FBH had the good intention when writing that, but time has shown that they have not come through on that.

The site itself as already said is very out of date, the Animal Welfare Act is still shown as the bill. The last press release and newsletter were released in 2004. Now surely the FBH should be using their website as one of their biggest tools, constantly updating, and getting new information out to their members and the general public. Also they could be using their website to show that they are not just going to lay back and let the anti's win! Yet looking at the site, its like they have given up already. 

I appreciate that probably not even half of rep keepers use forums, and probably half of us that do have not been on the site, but surely that should make the FBH try harder to get their site known and used more!

Is it really that surprising that most keepers havent bothered to respond much to the new act when the body that is supposedly fighting on our behalf cannot even communicate news to their members or update their website.

Of course its very easy for me to criticise the FBH for this, im sure they are doing alot of work fighting on our behalf, but i feel they could be doing alot more cummunicating the work that they are doing, and telling us what we can do too!

However, its not too late for things to change, the FBH can update their website ( there are company's who do it! ) and send newsletters out to members. We as keepers can join clubs, find out about whats going on, meetings etc, and do more than we are now.

If Rory can arrange a meeting, i would try my hardest to get there, and also help where i can with arrangements. I may even be able to get a venue at a knockdown price, maybe free, in London. 

Now is the time for us to act, lets not waste it.


----------



## pam b

Snakes r grreat said:


> Ive just been on the FBH website The Federation of British Herpetologists
> 
> Here is a quote from their membership page
> 
> _*The FBH has been standing up for the rights of the Reptile keeper since 1995. The group consists of many well known and experienced Reptile keepers & Traders who are now stepping up the fight for our hobby. We at the Federation feel that strength in numbers is required to protect our hobby from the current threats. With this in mind we are offering everyone the chance to become a member of the Federation.*_
> _*Upon becoming a member you will receive a regular newsletter with updates on the latest attacks against our hobby, as well as information about action being taken by the Federation on your behalf.*_
> 
> It seems that the FBH had the good intention when writing that, but time has shown that they have not come through on that.
> 
> The site itself as already said is very out of date, the Animal Welfare Act is still shown as the bill. The last press release and newsletter were released in 2004. Now surely the FBH should be using their website as one of their biggest tools, constantly updating, and getting new information out to their members and the general public. Also they could be using their website to show that they are not just going to lay back and let the anti's win! Yet looking at the site, its like they have given up already.
> 
> I appreciate that probably not even half of rep keepers use forums, and probably half of us that do have not been on the site, but surely that should make the FBH try harder to get their site known and used more!
> 
> Is it really that surprising that most keepers havent bothered to respond much to the new act when the body that is supposedly fighting on our behalf cannot even communicate news to their members or update their website.
> 
> Of course its very easy for me to criticise the FBH for this, im sure they are doing alot of work fighting on our behalf, but i feel they could be doing alot more cummunicating the work that they are doing, and telling us what we can do too!
> 
> However, its not too late for things to change, the FBH can update their website ( there are company's who do it! ) and send newsletters out to members. We as keepers can join clubs, find out about whats going on, meetings etc, and do more than we are now.
> 
> If Rory can arrange a meeting, i would try my hardest to get there, and also help where i can with arrangements. I may even be able to get a venue at a knockdown price, maybe free, in London.
> 
> Now is the time for us to act, lets not waste it.


The trouble is they dont have the time to try harder, Chris and the rest of the FBH committee do not get paid for any work they do, Chris spends alot of his time sorting government issues, and any trips they make to meetings ect its all out their own pocket. His phone bill alone in a quater would make me shudder, and we forget his ever faithfull wife Jan and his kids, who put up with rubbish from the Antis (Death threats, abuse, violence, damage to property).
Its all too easy to say we dont get what we want, but do some of us actually realise what it costs people (and not just money) to actually do these things?

I dont think many of us do, TBH!!!!!


----------



## Snakes r grreat

pam b said:


> The trouble is they dont have the time to try harder, Chris and the rest of the FBH committee do not get paid for any work they do, Chris spends alot of his time sorting government issues, and any trips they make to meetings ect its all out their own pocket. His phone bill alone in a quater would make me shudder, and we forget his ever faithfull wife Jan and his kids, who put up with rubbish from the Antis (Death threats, abuse, violence, damage to property).
> Its all too easy to say we dont get what we want, but do some of us actually realise what it costs people (and not just money) to actually do these things?
> 
> I dont think many of us do, TBH!!!!!


I really do appreciate that Pam, as i said, im sure they do alot of work that we dont see, BUT, surely the best way for them to raise money is to get more members, providing more subscription fee's, that could pay for website updates. Why not bring in someone new, there must be someone on these forums who could spend a few hours a month updating it, afterall theres plenty who are on forums many hours a day (myself included yes!) that have the ability to do it, hell im prepared to learn about webpages to help. 

I really dont envy Chris, and the workload he must have, and also the crap he gets from the anti's as a result, there aren't many who would put up with it!

What seem's clear then is the FBH need more help, and more funds, but how do we Joe Public know that unless they tell us, they really do need to get the word out more.


----------



## Guest

pam b said:


> The trouble is they dont have the time to try harder, Chris and the rest of the FBH committee do not get paid for any work they do, Chris spends alot of his time sorting government issues, and any trips they make to meetings ect its all out their own pocket. His phone bill alone in a quater would make me shudder, and we forget his ever faithfull wife Jan and his kids, who put up with rubbish from the Antis (Death threats, abuse, violence, damage to property).
> Its all too easy to say we dont get what we want, but do some of us actually realise what it costs people (and not just money) to actually do these things?
> 
> I dont think many of us do, TBH!!!!!


so what does the money actually get spent on ?

the subs..


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Valid points in the making....*

Very true Pam, 

Really time is a commodity that many people take for granted, and in reality it is something that we are all short of...

Also, yes phone bills, are always high, l broke my own phone bill down to monthly and still pay in the region of £300 pcm! LOL

Antis are a bigger threat when you are sailing close to the top and fighting against those who do oppose you.

The crap of trying to keep up to speed with things and having a bad memory doesn't help either.

R


----------



## pam b

SteveL said:


> so what does the money actually get spent on ?
> 
> the subs..


The actual money they get wouldnt even cover Chris's phone bill for one Quater!!!


----------



## Guest

pam b said:


> The actual money they get wouldnt even cover Chris's phone bill for one month!!!


but thats not the answer im looking for

how many members are there ?

and what do people actually get for there £10 a year ?


----------



## pam b

SteveL said:


> but thats not the answer im looking for
> 
> how many members are there ?
> 
> and what do people actually get for there £10 a year ?


Well im sorry the truth wasnt what you were looking for, i truely am, the last figure i had of membership was around the 150 mark.
But you'd be better off asking Chris that question, or Nils (is she here on RFUK) as shes the membership secretary!!!
But i can confirm Chris's phone bill if under that value wouldnt give him much change and then what does he do for the rest of the year?


----------



## Guest

pam b said:


> Well im sorry the truth wasnt what you were looking for, i truely am, the last figure i had of membership was around the 150 mark.
> But you'd be better off asking Chris that question, or Nils (is she here on RFUK) as shes the membership secretary!!!
> But i can confirm Chris's phone bill if under that value wouldnt give him much change and then what does he do for the rest of the year?


150 members is there any way this can be varified?

thats poor ..


----------



## pam b

i appologise, that doesnt include affliation which is a different matter, but i am sure there is still a huge short fall in cash to costs.


----------



## pam b

SteveL said:


> 150 members is there any way this can be varified?
> 
> thats poor ..


Like i said, my figure is an old one, as Chris knows, i stepped back from all this s*** a few years back, but ............ and this is a big but............... he always knows im here and will fight on his behalf if need be.

You have to remember that this figure includes both singles and family membership.
EDIT!!!!!!
Sorry Andy, i didnt realise the swear filter wouldnt take care of the poo word for me.
Hold the phone, how come my poo word gets edited yet other peoples crap words dont?


----------



## pam b

Snakes r grreat said:


> I really do appreciate that Pam, as i said, im sure they do alot of work that we dont see, BUT, surely the best way for them to raise money is to get more members, providing more subscription fee's, that could pay for website updates. Why not bring in someone new, there must be someone on these forums who could spend a few hours a month updating it, afterall theres plenty who are on forums many hours a day (myself included yes!) that have the ability to do it, hell im prepared to learn about webpages to help.
> 
> I really dont envy Chris, and the workload he must have, and also the crap he gets from the anti's as a result, there aren't many who would put up with it!
> 
> What seem's clear then is the FBH need more help, and more funds, but how do we Joe Public know that unless they tell us, they really do need to get the word out more.


 
I see your point, i'd be happy to update the FBH site myself, that said if Tom has done the site i'm gonna have to learn (LMFAO) *Hides from Tom*
Chris knows how to get hold of me, offers there Chris, another job sorted maybe?


----------



## Ssthisto

Ok, here's a perspective from someone who's come sort of full circle.

When I got my first reptiles, I didn't know there were any British reptile-based societies. Why didn't any of the shops I went to - or ordered from online - have leaflets to give out? 

When I found out there were British reptile societies, I tried to find out whether my unorthodox family would qualify for a family membership (three adults, no kids). It took two months to get a straight answer - because the websites at the time did not say!

When I decided to join a society, it wasn't because I thought they were doing great things - I didn't know WHAT they were doing, and every time I asked for information about IHS events and why there wasn't more information about EVERYTHING on the website, I got told that advertising things would just draw animal rights attention. I didn't join a society because I believed in their goals. I joined the society so I could go to the Doncaster show.

And now... the public can get into the shows - and it's actually CHEAPER to do it that way than it is to pay for a membership! 

I'm another person who wants to know where my money's going and what it's doing before I put it there... otherwise, I could well be donating to the reptile equivalent of Animal Aid or another AR group. 

Oh: The FBH and IHS websites (as a web designer) are in desperate need of work. They need optimising for search engines, they need to have real-world flyers advertising them, and they need someone who can send out EMAIL newsletters. I can do some of that, and I would like to volunteer a couple of hours a week on behalf of my partner and myself to help update the site so that people CAN find it - and I can certainly program a newsletter mailout, too.

IHS: Please save money by not sending me print newsletters. Send them to me by e-mail - it's cheaper and faster.


----------



## Tops

Ive seen alot of questions asked and none answered properly on this thread.
Its the main reason I havent joined any 'societies' and tend to just ignore what often seems like peoples ramblings.
Why do there need to be so many societies? Why cant they join forces and amalgamate into one society that everyone could join?
Its fine saying that 'my membership isnt going to cover some blokes phone bill for one month' but thats not an answer is it? Are you saying everyones subscriptions go onto this guys phone bill? What would my money really get me as a subscriber and member? The right to call myself a member? Whats the benefit of that?
You get to enter a show 30-60 mins early from what ive seen. Thats where the benefit ends.
It seems there are too many people scrabbling for things at the same time.
Maybe if they were to join forces then resources and time could be pooled making life easier for everyone involved.

On the other hand we can just have a bunch of poorly managed, badly funded organisations that work autonomously instead of together and everyone can complain about it, whine and then get told their questions arent worth answering. That seems to work so far.

If anyone was to ask me why they should join a society, I would probably tell them not to bother.


----------



## Dan

The fact this thread has picked up so well is bitter sweet, fantastic that so many are reading and posting but so much for me to type :lol2:



Rory, 
If any reptile group originally coined phrase "stand up and be counted" then i'll eat my shorts!! I wont restrict my own vocab in order to be different.
What i offer any body that contacts me is help. If they want something and i can provide it then i will.
I want to join the big fight but i will not waste time money and effort supporting people that can not adapt the way they work when they are failing.

Talking the talk is undoubtedly very important but you have to remember WHO you are talking to. You don't talk to a politician like a layman so you SHOULDN'T talk to a layman like a politician. All that achieves is alienation, something that you and chris are achieving magnificently, a quote from a message i received :


> you get these people come on and say stuff that the average person simply doesnt understand.
> dont get me wrong, i'm not stupid, but there are plenty there with a lower iq than me that will have no idea at all.


Oh and for the record, if the FBH had ever asked for my help i would have given it and still would, gladly. I'll come on to that in a bit though.

While yes, i admit this has come to light sooner than planned due to the cancellation of the Exeter show, it is certainly not the driving force behind my words.
I have been screaming the same old tune for litterally years now.

Incidentally, i didnt read either of your posts. Wohic provided me with an easy "out" as i had other matters to deal with. Just so people are aware, by my posting against Chris and others i instigate an arguement with my wife. She is firmly against me making any post in this manner and as such it costs me more than some friction on the internet.

P.S
After a previous comment about hearing the same old escuses and not hearing the money one it has since reared its ugly head again. Would you like to tell the folks just how much they have?


----------



## Dan

Chris, after making a point of asking for clear answers you have failed to provide them. Whether intentional or not i don't know but i'll try again.

Can you explain to me what current legislative work is? Just so it can be applied to the list you posted up.

On the note of the codes of practices. Will you ever complete these? You spent years (litterally) trying to do caresheets and only ever produced one for leopard geckos before members of the livefoods forums started offering their own to try to help - did you actually use any of these?

I dont think i could make it any clearer so i will just re-iterate it.
If the people leading current societies are going around threatening others or actually stand to benefit from the demise of the reptile hobby then how can they be suitable representatives? 

People DO want the information but the way you present it is perceived as scaremongering. As a group that is primarily internet based (in terms of membership recruitment) your ability to comunicate with the internet world is APPALLING.


----------



## Dan

I'll try a different tack. One that is likely to make life busy if taken up.

Reading through the rest of the replies it is clear that the majority of us can see a whole list of problems with the current systems.

As such i will offer my help to the FBH.
If my offer is taken up i would organise a group of people to identify and rectify any problems that are currently obvious to the rest of us.

I will also guarantee to increase FBH membership (based on previous figure in this thread) ten fold to 1500 direct members.

The FBH only has to do 2 things:
1) Ask me.
2) Fully support me and the team i assemble.

Technically they have nothing to lose.
If i fail then i embarass myself and prove i am just full of hot air, if i succeed they become one of the biggest and strongest reptile groups in the world.


----------



## Tops

From what I can tell as an individual and hobbyist I am better off washing my hands of ALL organisations and just letting them get on with either doing or being seen to do very little.
If at some point in the future someone actually sorts themselves out and gets a society together that works well and knows the meaning of the word Synergy then I will happily join and put in plenty of effort to help them out.
Until then ignorance is bliss. : victory:


----------



## Guest

Tops said:


> From what I can tell as an individual and hobbyist I am better off washing my hands of ALL organisations and just letting them get on with either doing or being seen to do very little.
> If at some point in the future someone actually sorts themselves out and gets a society together that works well and knows the meaning of the word Synergy then I will happily join and put in plenty of effort to help them out.
> Until then ignorance is bliss. : victory:


I think that this is the opinion of most people


----------



## madaboutreptiles

reticulatus said:


> I'll try a different tack. One that is likely to make life busy if taken up.
> 
> Reading through the rest of the replies it is clear that the majority of us can see a whole list of problems with the current systems.
> 
> As such i will offer my help to the FBH.
> If my offer is taken up i would organise a group of people to identify and rectify any problems that are currently obvious to the rest of us.
> 
> I will also guarantee to increase FBH membership (based on previous figure in this thread) ten fold to 1500 direct members.
> 
> The FBH only has to do 2 things:
> 1) Ask me.
> 2) Fully support me and the team i assemble.
> 
> Technically they have nothing to lose.
> If i fail then i embarass myself and prove i am just full of hot air, if i succeed they become one of the biggest and strongest reptile groups in the world.


sounds like an offer they cant refuse....


----------



## Guest

give Dan a chance: victory:

also im still waiting for an answer as to how many members there actually are? 150 sounds like a joke to me ...and what do they get for there money ??

as i may join one soon ...


----------



## Snakes r grreat

So the FBH have had 2 offers tonight, 1 for the website, and one to increase membership numbers 10 fold, i reckon the balls in their court now...

Oh, and both are free too.


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## Tops

Snakes r grreat said:


> So the FBH have had 2 offers tonight, 1 for the website, and one to increase membership numbers 10 fold, i reckon the balls in their court now...
> 
> Oh, and both are free too.


Im always willing to help out too but im not interested in some half arsed wannabe society that has no direction, drive or ability to put their views and aims over to their members.
Ive sat on enough committees to know the difference between something that is well lead and committed to something that floats along just letting everyone else get on with it.


----------



## Snakes r grreat

Tops said:


> Im always willing to help out too but im not interested in some half arsed wannabe society that has no direction, drive or ability to put their views and aims over to their members.
> Ive sat on enough committees to know the difference between something that is well lead and committed to something that floats along just letting everyone else get on with it.


I think thats the point Tops, plenty of people who are probably willing to get involved and help, but there is no direction on how we can back up the FBH from the guys there.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*cant think of one... [title]*

Hi Dan, 

Currently busy, but will address the post made to me shortly.

R


----------



## Tops

Snakes r grreat said:


> I think thats the point Tops, plenty of people who are probably willing to get involved and help, but there is no direction on how we can back up the FBH from the guys there.


A member of this forum had a go at me a while ago about not doing more but without knowing what to do and no direction what can we do as individuals?
Just because I own a snake or two doesnt mean I know who to speak to or what I need to do to ensure that legislation doesnt change. I dont spend all my time scouring the internet in case someone is threatening my hobby,
Until someone gives us something to fight or a direction to focus on then we are just walking around in circles.


----------



## Snakes r grreat

Tops said:


> A member of this forum had a go at me a while ago about not doing more but without knowing what to do and no direction what can we do as individuals?
> Just because I own a snake or two doesnt mean I know who to speak to or what I need to do to ensure that legislation doesnt change. I dont spend all my time scouring the internet in case someone is threatening my hobby,
> Until someone gives us something to fight or a direction to focus on then we are just walking around in circles.


I agree Tops, its all very well us being told to write to our MP's, but really we need to know what groups like the FBH are doing, and some direction as to what we can do to support that. There have been a few posts telling us that we need to act, i am all for that, but really i dont have a clue what i should do...... but i would like to know, because i do agree that we as keepers do need to do something.


----------



## Dan

Snakes r grreat said:


> I agree Tops, its all very well us being told to write to our MP's, but really we need to know what groups like the FBH are doing, and some direction as to what we can do to support that. There have been a few posts telling us that we need to act, i am all for that, but really i dont have a clue what i should do...... but i would like to know, because i do agree that we as keepers do need to do something.


Well, if i get the go ahead you will get clear instructions on what and how to do things.

Rory, as and when you're ready - you waited all day while i did other things so i'm sure i'll manage: victory:


----------



## wohic

Ssthisto said:


> Oh: The FBH and IHS websites (as a web designer) are in desperate need of work. They need optimising for search engines, they need to have real-world flyers advertising them, and they need someone who can send out EMAIL newsletters. I can do some of that, and I would like to volunteer a couple of hours a week on behalf of my partner and myself to help update the site so that people CAN find it - and I can certainly program a newsletter mailout, too.
> 
> IHS: Please save money by not sending me print newsletters. Send them to me by e-mail - it's cheaper and faster.


This is an offer I seriously hope that chris and co take up, it will make a mile of difference.


----------



## jav07

wohic said:


> This is an offer I seriously hope that chris and co take up, it will make a mile of difference.


i think the ihs website will be getting a full revamp soon.


----------



## Ssthisto

What, with e-mail addresses that work and everything?


----------



## jav07

Ssthisto said:


> What, with e-mail addresses that work and everything?


:Na_Na_Na_Na:yep job lot


----------



## Ssthisto

Professionally done, on business-quality hosting? And without the site being written in frames?

I really do think the *e-mailed newsletters* to _anyone_ who wants to subscribe (not just IHS/FBH members - *advertise to non-members* what they're missing, for Pete's sake!) will make a difference. Also... 

*The organisations should BOTH have sites that:*
- _explain_ the legislation
- _explain _the threats to the hobby
- _explain_ what people can do about it 

And they should *do it in simple language* *that Joe Bloggs* the 12-year-old keeper* can* *understand and explain* to his parents. This will be VITAL if we want the people on the 'net to respond... literacy just ain't getting any better, and we need to reach people whether or not they're English and/or law majors.

I read the transcripts of some of the consultations - and I'm not daft, I did go to university and I do have more than a passing grasp of the English language as something more complex than "U Lyk teh Lepperd Gekos?" - and I have to re-read a number of times to understand it. Don't post the entire transcript as the "content". You've got less than ten seconds to get someone's attention - whether you're advertising online gifts or trying to get people to donate money to a worthy cause.

Post a _simplified_, *bullet pointed list*, to produce a readable piece of information giving *headings of "Who, What, Where, When, Why, How"* and _shows_ people what they can do. Then let them _download_ the complete transcript! 

And yeah, I've used a few usability and readability tricks above, too.

Incidentally ... I work in web design professionally.
One of the sites I have worked on heavily for the last year is a nominee for a worldwide web award this year.
One of the sites I worked on last year was a nominee for "Best industry application" in the same web awards last year.

I'm not a sole developer on these - but I keep up with the usability studies and I'm constantly tweaking and improving the sites I work with to make them better for the clients - and for the client's customers. I do concept drafts and graphic design; I'm not as "up" with the programming, but I know some the psychological tricks to get the important stuff seen.


----------



## jav07

Ssthisto said:


> Professionally done, on business-quality hosting? And without the site being written in frames?
> 
> I really do think the *e-mailed newsletters* to _anyone_ who wants to subscribe (not just IHS/FBH members - *advertise to non-members* what they're missing, for Pete's sake!) will make a difference. Also...
> 
> *The organisations should BOTH have sites that:*
> - _explain_ the legislation
> - _explain _the threats to the hobby
> - _explain_ what people can do about it
> 
> And they should *do it in simple language* *that Joe Bloggs* the 12-year-old keeper* can* *understand and explain* to his parents. This will be VITAL if we want the people on the 'net to respond... literacy just ain't getting any better, and we need to reach people whether or not they're English and/or law majors.
> 
> I read the transcripts of some of the consultations - and I'm not daft, I did go to university and I do have more than a passing grasp of the English language as something more complex than "U Lyk teh Lepperd Gekos?" - and I have to re-read a number of times to understand it. Don't post the entire transcript as the "content". You've got less than ten seconds to get someone's attention - whether you're advertising online gifts or trying to get people to donate money to a worthy cause.
> 
> Post a _simplified_, *bullet pointed list*, to produce a readable piece of information giving *headings of "Who, What, Where, When, Why, How"* and _shows_ people what they can do. Then let them _download_ the complete transcript!
> 
> And yeah, I've used a few usability and readability tricks above, too.


i just know its getting a revamp soon, if you dont mind i will pass this on though


----------



## Ssthisto

Well, as I said... my partner and I are willing to volunteer a couple of hours a week to get things squared up.

The IHS website URL is pants, too. How many people in the hobby know HOW to spell "herpetological" ?

How about www.ihs-reptile.org - or something EASY to remember? *I* have to use Google to find it when I want it!


----------



## Natrix

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Okay,
> 
> This has turned out to be a good thread.
> 
> It certainly has aroused interest on and in here, but if it was required to take this discussion further, would passionate parties want to discuss this further to see what could be done, and how to take action on threads like this?
> 
> If this is the case:
> 
> TSKA-Rainbow: Event Management;
> 
> Will organize 'an audience with the Animal Welfare Act' this will include guest speakers such as the likes of Chris Newman, ministers and so on.
> 
> We will plan it for later this year, and from this point on will commence organization of structure for its itinerary.
> 
> Are you interested enough to attend?
> 
> Here you can listen to the politics of then up to now, and beyond, how the political 'nerds' are working etc, etc and more importantly it will give keepers the opportunity to raise questions and if need be allow the hecklers amongst you to raise your doubts.
> 
> If so let me hear your views
> 
> Rory Matier
> TSKA-Rainbow: Event Management


Hi Rory

The above conference is a great idea BUT it has been done before (I know, I organised the first two FBH conferences and helped Nils with the last one). The big problem has always been getting both the speakers and the delagates to attend. To give you some idea of what you are up against, all the excited posts saying "I'll be there" will add up to about ten rears on seats. All three conferences had the potential to cost the FBH large sums of money and in one case this was only avoided thanks to an error in our favour on one of the bills.
But enough of the down side of conferences, I feel a conference is long over due and fully support the idea but (sorry, there's always a but) you don't just need a chance to give out information, you also need a chance for the FBH to take in some information.

If the FBH is going to move forward and become stronger you need to set up several small meetings around the country so that people can get together and just discuss what needs to be done without any other distractions. A lot more could be achieved in several small meetings than could be achieved in a quick Q and A stuck on the end of a day of talks and slide shows. 

I don't think we've met, but if I can be of help in any way with the above, feel free to PM me your phone number and I'll ring you as my phone bill is a set monthly fee and isn't charged for by the minute. 

Gordon Glasson
Ex FBH Vice Chair person.


----------



## purejurrasic

You know, I am quite pleased with the way this thread is going, far from apathy, great efforts are being made to find a way forward.

My own thoughts are that the FBH and IHS seem to be lofty 'beings' set above us there for us to look upto. But the truth is, no matter how hard they try, its us, the hobbiest, breeder or simply the reptile keeper that really holds the key.

With all the offers of help, and the thought that national meetings may not get the support, why not try to set up some sort of hierarchy system, for example, local area based satellites, where the normal everyday joe can attend, if only quarterly or six monthly, to put forward views, take in information etc.

these 'satellites' then have a 'committee' who meet say 6 monthly with other 'satellites' where interation takes place with the fbh or ihs.

So the purpose of these 'local' gatherings is to involve reptile keepers and keep them updated with the legal happenings, and to create a path of understanding and co operation to those orgs better placed to take the case to the law makers and represent us, the keepers.

Of course this all takes cash, but maybe a small membership fee of say 2 or 3 pound would cover email newsletters, hall hire ect.

Having said all this, it will take the assistance of the fbh and ihs etc to translate all the legal jargon in to 'our' lingo so we dont find it boring, and do want to be involved.

So, whats your thoughts on , lets say, the National Association of Reptile Keepers. Its sole reason for being to provide back and forth conversations regarding these issues?


----------



## Natrix

reticulatus said:


> I'll try a different tack. One that is likely to make life busy if taken up.
> 
> Reading through the rest of the replies it is clear that the majority of us can see a whole list of problems with the current systems.
> 
> As such i will offer my help to the FBH.
> If my offer is taken up i would organise a group of people to identify and rectify any problems that are currently obvious to the rest of us.
> 
> I will also guarantee to increase FBH membership (based on previous figure in this thread) ten fold to 1500 direct members.
> 
> The FBH only has to do 2 things:
> 1) Ask me.
> 2) Fully support me and the team i assemble.
> 
> Technically they have nothing to lose.
> If i fail then i embarass myself and prove i am just full of hot air, if i succeed they become one of the biggest and strongest reptile groups in the world.


Dan 
Having been on the inside looking out and more recently the outside looking in, I think you may be slightly underestimating just how complicated the FBH and it's associated groups are when it comes to moving things forwarded. You are not just dealing with a club and it's members. The FBH has to combine the wide ranging views of the keepers, with the wide ranging views of the breeders, with the wide ranging views of the dealers/shop owners and the wide ranging views of the wholesalers and manufacturers. Then it has to convey all of this to the officialdom at DEFRA (without upsetting them to much) and attempt to get them to see our point of view over that of the Antis (who are all represented by proffesional lobbyists and paid lawyers). 
I know You have your gripes with Chris but the above described juggling act is all on his shoulders at the moment and while many feel more should be done, he is only one man and I do know that he is working to his limit (I was going to use the graceful swan paddling like mad below the water analogy here, but somehow comparing Chris to a graceful swan :roll2::rotfl

Having said that I do agree with you re the need for better communication and as a past insider I am well aware of other areas that would benefit from more input by others as well as areas that haven't even been touched on yet in the fight for our hobby. That is why I have suggested to Rory that he sets up some small meetings around the country so that all these things can be discussed, ideas taken up and most important of all, the correct volunteers found to help push things forward.
I would hope that people like yourself and others on here would attend these meetings and play a VERY active role in the discussions and in any activities arrising from them. 

I will now shut up and see what transpires.

Gordon Glasson
Ex FBH Vice Chair Person


----------



## Natrix

purejurrasic said:


> You know, I am quite pleased with the way this thread is going, far from apathy, great efforts are being made to find a way forward.
> 
> My own thoughts are that the FBH and IHS seem to be lofty 'beings' set above us there for us to look upto. But the truth is, no matter how hard they try, its us, the hobbiest, breeder or simply the reptile keeper that really holds the key.
> 
> With all the offers of help, and the thought that national meetings may not get the support, why not try to set up some sort of hierarchy system, for example, local area based satellites, where the normal everyday joe can attend, if only quarterly or six monthly, to put forward views, take in information etc.
> 
> these 'satellites' then have a 'committee' who meet say 6 monthly with other 'satellites' where interation takes place with the fbh or ihs.
> 
> So the purpose of these 'local' gatherings is to involve reptile keepers and keep them updated with the legal happenings, and to create a path of understanding and co operation to those orgs better placed to take the case to the law makers and represent us, the keepers.
> 
> Of course this all takes cash, but maybe a small membership fee of say 2 or 3 pound would cover email newsletters, hall hire ect.
> 
> Having said all this, it will take the assistance of the fbh and ihs etc to translate all the legal jargon in to 'our' lingo so we dont find it boring, and do want to be involved.
> 
> So, whats your thoughts on , lets say, the National Association of Reptile Keepers. Its sole reason for being to provide back and forth conversations regarding these issues?


It's been tried but involves to many people, spread to far and wide causing everything to just grind to a halt. There are ways forward but it needs to be small groups, working closely together with big outputs.
The starting point has to be the small discussion meetings. They don't need hundreds to attend them, in fact I suspect less than 30 would be best to give everyone a chance to be heard. Keep the conference for the mass gathering of hobbyists, the discussion meetings are purely about bringing together ideas and key people. 

Gordon


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*Superb!*

Well it is late and l am just finishing my day, bed for a few hours and then start again.

The thread has really taken some direct hits since l last sat down to it properly and l have not yet had time to catch up with the six some pages now added, but l will tomorrow, now today.

Hi Gordon, no we have not met, but we will soon, l feel. Thankyou for your advice and as you know l have pm'd you already. As said there, this is not so much a one off affair but it will be a series of smaller events, but we have to start with one.

I am not a member of FBH, IHS and so on, TSKA is soon to be a member of FOCAS. I am not a reptile keeper, or an invertebrate keeper, just passionate about what l do and what others do. I am a business, and like other business's would like to have a future and as such, l feel that it is only reasonable to dedicate as much time as l can to this industry and the hobby. I do this using both myself and my brand as a vehicle to deliver material to readers.

I started using the website code of practice two years ago, when people were umming and arring about the way politics was looking ...lol, it does make me giggle.

I have set up the brand to work with the potential changes in legislation and even as l write l am currently changing the face of TSKA again.

For now nearly two years on, and people are getting stirred up?

Well better late than never l guess.

I am an antagonist, l admit to that, l have tried to make people think about how they view the market as well as their hobby. I will continue to 'scaremonger' or 'antagonise' in order to illicit a response.

As said, not being a herpy or an invo, l am not familiar with the working of the societies, sure all websites need updating, sure all need better communications, fine, sure, but the most important factor is realising that the political stuff, comes down to only a few very dedicated and passionate people, and they have only the time that the day allows them to work and the body and heart to live and breathe. But what l do admire about them, is their passion, their soul, for that is what is required to survive.

A passionate soul, the ability to continue to get up after you have been knocked down, the ability to persevere when motivations are low, to continue the path for others, despite their lack of committment or knowledge to follow.

Politics has been with this industry for a bloody long time now, and l am nothing but a novice to this field, but proud to be considered worth while to listen to, the people who are fighting our battles are veterans, and sometimes may not focus on what others focus on directly.

Chris Newman is - but one man - he needs volunteers, he needs help, even if he does not like to admit to it. FOCAS needs members, all the societies need new membership.

The 'audience idea' is not new, as Gordon has suggested, and it was never planned to be just one event, but l now repeat - it has to start somewhere.

And now to bed,

R


----------



## Ssthisto

Natrix said:


> It's been tried but involves to many people, spread to far and wide causing everything to just grind to a halt.


The problem is that "small discussion meetings" need to be had with the actual hobbyists too - otherwise, we just don't know the societies are doing any good or even that they exist. 

I'd LOVE to go to some of the conferences and I'm DEFINITELY motivated about the legislation of our hobby, since my reptiles are a fair whack of my life - but I can't take time off work if I want to pay my mortgage, I can't travel far because I don't have a car and I can't afford the train (see above: mortgage) and generally unless it's VERY close (i.e. Leeds/Manchester/Sheffield - York's pushing it) there's two keepers here who just can't attend. Set up a smaller meeting in Leeds, and I'll be there with anyone I can drag.

One of our plans in the next month is going to be trying to set up a Huddersfield group ("This is a local group, for local people - we'll have no trouble here!") just to "catch" some of the reptile keepers who don't know about all of this. People who don't use the 'net. People who don't read forums. People to whom IHS might stand for Iowa Health System (Yes, that's ihs.org) for all they know. 

We plan to contact our local shops and ask them to post a flyer to contact us, we're setting up a group of reptile and exotic keepers, plan a once-a-month meet where folk can come and shoot the sugar about their animals - while it's small, probably meeting in our own home. Yeah, we are going to suggest that people join the societies. We ARE going to make people aware that the Animal Welfare Act is not all fluffy puppies. But we don't plan to scare people off with our initial "approach" leaflet. In the beginning it's just going to be "Wanna come talk about your critters with people who don't look at you funny when you say you have snakes? Call us - we're setting up a local reptile group!"

Heck, you meet future keepers in the strangest of places. We are active on our local Freecycle group. One bloke came by last night to pick up a roof rack we'd advertised and saw the five-foot vivarium in our living room. And said "Oh, wow, what's in there? My son wants a lizard, but that's a HUGE cage!" So we had a nice little chat about good first reptiles for young people (the inhabitant of the viv in the living room is not). I'd love to talk to more people who I can SEE on a regular basis - there's only so many times you can say "My baby sand boas ate today!" to your coworkers before they give you _the look_.

Don't underestimate the need to get support from "the keepers".

There's a very pertinent episode of South Park that seems appropriate. One where people decide to stick their heads literally into the sand to avoid culpability when things go wrong.

It's not just the KEEPERS who are sticking their heads into the sand here... I think the societies are too. The IHS and FBH aren't listening when we say "What are you doing - we want to help - tell us how we can help!"


----------



## Guest

Perhaps we need a closed/passworded forum setting up on here(Reptile forums) just for the affiliated clubs to post up news or information .maybe t-bo/Chris would allow this?? perhaps make a small charge for all members to join it.so the antis if they were here would have to pay to read up etc .May be the clubs could affiliate them selves with big foums a bit more ?!? 
Its the busiest reptile forum on the net with out doubt so surely it will atract the attention it deserves from reptile keepers?
Its just an idea but surely if we are going to save this hobby of ours we need to do every thing possible NOW ..


----------



## sami

purejurrasic said:


> SNIP
> 
> So, whats your thoughts on , lets say, the National Association of Reptile Keepers. Its sole reason for being to provide back and forth conversations regarding these issues?


sorry for being sarcy in a very important and serious thread. I agree with your post...but just noticed that it would be N.A.R.K :lol:

Not the best choice of name, I appreciate that you probably only spent about a seond thinking it up though!


On a serious note...

travelling really should not be an issue should a meeting ever be arranged. we are supposed to be pooling together to fight this....


howe much of an inconvenience would it be for all us drivers to give people lifts? I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the people on here who have no transport can get on a train or a bus to someone who lives close and does.

I for one certainly have no problem opening up my car for fellow herpers regrdless of weather we have met before or not.

Anyone is welcome to a lift to anything like this or shows from me as long as:

there is still space in my car
they don't mind listening to 'real' music (ie music with guitars in)
they don't mind listening to me pretending I can sing
they aren't scared of spaniels/me/sami


Mason


----------



## Chris Newman

Chris, after making a point of asking for clear answers you have failed to provide them. Whether intentional or not i don't know but i'll try again.

Can you explain to me what current legislative work is? Just so it can be applied to the list you posted up.

Dan I am not quite certain I understand the point you are trying to make! Below is the list of current legislative work being done:Animal Welfare ActDangerous Wild Animals ActNon-Native Species reviewEuropean protected Species RegulationsAnimal Transport OrderAnimal Health & Welfare Strategy

There are also a couple of others ‘bits and bobs’ ongoing such as the Animal Bi-products Regulations that at one point outlawed the sale of frozen foods reptiles! 

Other legislative work ongoing, CITES charges, at the moment Article 10 certificates are free. After a 5 year fight we got DEFRA to concede defeat over full recovery costs (£110) and got charges set at £25, only for this to be overturned at the last moment, by the antis, and now we start all over again, another few years of fighting. If we get stung for full recovery costs then it will kill the trade and keeping of Annex A species. Obviously something the antis want.

Then of course we had the proposed introduction of Article 8.2. of CITES, prohibition on the keeping of certain species, one proposal was Rino Igs, had this been passed it would make the keeping of them by private keepers illegal! Fortunately after a lot of lobbying it bit the dust as a proposal – BUT it will be back one day!

Or is your point ‘what does one do’ in such work? If that is the question the answer is rather difficult as each and every piece of legislative work is different. However, all will require writing reports, letters to interested concerns, meeting with Ministers or government officials. 

Oh yes and reading other peoples bloody reports and then countering them, for example IFAWs Caught in the Web:
http://www.caughtintheweb.co.uk/site/c.omL4KkN2LtH/b.951745/k.736C/Caught_in_the_Web__Home.htm

This was the start of the campaign by the ‘antis’ to ban the trade in animals via the internet, including advertising. How much time have I spent on this issue alone, hundreds of hours. I have attended meetings Bristol, London and Edinburgh to fight this issue. 

I hope this helps!


----------



## brittone05

Could people maybe consider listing thier local herp societies in another thread where we can have all the contact details needed for them - i.e name, contact number, place of regular meeting etc.

That way, if someone is NOT a member but doesn't know wher to start looking, they can find it easily and also distribute it easily to their friends and get word to the non-internet using keepers?

I have a local herp society who runs near me - they do regular small shows to raise funds for local charities etc and have speakers on each month when they meet. 

I think also, some people are a little wary of meeting others who are already part of a group - my local herp society has it's cliques which is quite offputting to the newcomer. Maybe established groups could be ispired to recruit newcomers by having some new ideas passed to them?

Also, if you are part of a local group - do you know if they are (as a society) affiliated witht he FBH or IHS? If they aren't - why? Is it for the same reasons some have stated here or is it for other reasons? If we can find this out, maybe we could stand a chance of getting them on board too - after all the potential changes to legislation could affect eacha nd every one of thier members.

I am happy to keep a saved database on my PC of all the reptile groups country wide and such - just need the details of them all


----------



## sparkle

brittone05 said:


> Could people maybe consider listing thier local herp societies in another thread where we can have all the contact details needed for them - i.e name, contact number, place of regular meeting etc.
> 
> That way, if someone is NOT a member but doesn't know wher to start looking, they can find it easily and also distribute it easily to their friends and get word to the non-internet using keepers?
> 
> I have a local herp society who runs near me - they do regular small shows to raise funds for local charities etc and have speakers on each month when they meet.
> 
> I think also, some people are a little wary of meeting others who are already part of a group - my local herp society has it's cliques which is quite offputting to the newcomer. Maybe established groups could be ispired to recruit newcomers by having some new ideas passed to them?
> 
> Also, if you are part of a local group - do you know if they are (as a society) affiliated witht he FBH or IHS? If they aren't - why? Is it for the same reasons some have stated here or is it for other reasons? If we can find this out, maybe we could stand a chance of getting them on board too - after all the potential changes to legislation could affect eacha nd every one of thier members.
> 
> I am happy to keep a saved database on my PC of all the reptile groups country wide and such - just need the details of them all


 
that sounds liek a great idea...

I wonder if we could have a website with a map and u can enter your postcode and see whats near you...

im sure theres a few of us on here would volunteer to help with that x


----------



## Chris Newman

It is indeed pleasing to see so many people responding to this thread, even if we have deviated off topic a little! It is also very pleasing to see so many people prepared to offer help and assistance, ALL help and assistance is gratefully appreciated.

It might be helpful also if I try and explain what has been happing over the passed couple of years, and why. It is true that the FBH has been a little inactive, on the surface if not below the waterline. The FBH started in 1996 as I recall and I was appointed chair in 2001. The purpose of the FBH was to unite all reptile and amphibian societies under one banner to fight the political battles. This has taken time, but has been achieved. Anyone who knows the reptile world knows just how difficult it is to bring everyone together!

With the advent of the Animal Welfare Bill, now Act it became very apparent that reptiles, or indeed any animal taxa could not stand on its own. Under the Act animals are animals, matter not if they are reptile, fish, bird or mammal. We are all in the same boat, we all have the same powerful opponents! Therefore we needed to bring all animal keeping societies together under one banner, FOCAS (Federation of Companion Animal Societies). This has now happened and FOCAS was borne in 2005, but it took some three years to do. But now we have a very powerful fighting force of some 500+ animal societies.

2005 also gave rise to REPTA (Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association). REPTA was formed by all the major reptile wholesalers and manufactures to support the reptile industry. This was a major step forward as previously the reptile industry was even more divided that the reptile keeping sector. 

Now all that is needed is to unit all the various pet trade associations under one banner, an imposable task! Towards the end of last year I was invited to speak at the OATA (Ornamental and Aquatic Trade Association) conference on the ‘Animal Rights and the Future of the Pet Industry’ (presentation here http://the-shg.org/OATA.htm) As a result a number of meeting have taken place between all the various pet trade associations and a very important, and exciting and important announcement will be made very soon. I can say nothing more at this moment in time.

We need to all understand the issues and what is at stake, the anti pet keeping lobby is huge, very wealthy and very powerful. The pro pet keeping lobby is small and weak by comparison, our strength is in numbers and all working together. It has taken a long time to try and unite all interests, but it is coming together. I fully accept all criticisms that I have not done enough to keep everyone informed – I haven’t. But hopefully people will understand the constraints, time and not letting our opponents know what is going on! The unfortunate things about forums such as this are open for all to see, pro and anti! When did you see Animal Aid or the RSPCA discussing such issues on there open forums! Answer you don’t, they don’t have such things!!

I hope that I have answered some of the questions, please don’t expect me to make many posts here, or answer all the questions, I won’t – I don’t have the time. It has been suggested that an open meeting, forum, debate, call it what you will be held. I think this is an excellent idea, if people are interested then lets see what can be organised!

Regards,
Chris Newman


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## Dan

This will only be a quick one, as i really should be digging foundations this morning.

Gordon,
Things are only complicated because they have been made that way. 
The IHS is pretty much a virtual group these days, living in their own little world and not actually doing a lot of anything.
The FBH is trying to represent everyone and actually representing nobody. We all know pleasing everybody is an impossible task. The two sides of the hobby will always follow different paths for one simple fundemental reason, one buys reptiles and one sells.

Despite common interpretation i do NOT actually have a real gripe with Chris himself**. He is simply the only one that will stand up and make himself known to the public and as such becomes the target that all frustrations are aimed at.
How many people can actually list the FBH comittee members? I digress.

What Chris needs to do is find 5 minutes (quite litterally) to tell people he needs help. The FBH has long been in need of some serious help but refuses to ask.

I don't have time to finish this so all i will say is:

Chris - do you work for Pets at home? simple answer please - yes or no

Why has no other comittee member posted and mentioned the offers made, just to acknowledge them?


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## Chris Newman

_I am just going to post the last section of the presentation I gave at the OATA conference as I think it is very important……_


The Animal Welfare Bill completed its parliamentary path earlier this month, becoming law in April 2007. 
*Unless pet keepers and the pet industry recognises and starts to address the threat posed by the Animal Rights industry within a decade the retailing of pets from pet shops will be consigned to history. *
Within two decades the keeping of companion animals, pets, will be to all intents and purposes will be finished. 
If we ignore this threat, or treat it with the usual apathy, we shall follow the plethora of other species into extinction.
So what do we need to do? First and foremost we must acknowledge the threat, *not simply bury our heads in the sand and say “it will never happen” - it will, it is! *
We also need to be united, keepers, traders and trade associations. 
We need to redress the political imbalance, under the Animal Welfare Act. Remember all codes of practice, which underpin the Act, must be debated by parliament! 
Those who oppose the pet industry and pet keeping, RSPCA, IFAW, RSPB etc, all have political lobbying departments. There are at least ten full time political lobbyists opposed to our interests, whilst we have not one! 
Our future is in our hands. We have a duty of care to the animals which we keep, but we also have a duty to safeguard future generations’ rights to keep pets. 
*Animal keeping is not a privilege it is a right, as it is our right to be free. *​*Society can remove our rights, but only if we transgress the law. *​*We cannot afford to allow the AR industry to dictate the law or our rights.*​


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## Chris Newman

Chris - do you work for Pets at home? simple answer please - yes or no

No


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## ratboy

It seems to me that RFUK is not the place to be offering help. Given time this thread will just be forgotten like every other thread. If you are serious about offering help to any society or organisation get in touch *with them* and offer your help *to them*.

As Gordon has said, it is a sad fact that from 10 offers of help on a forum only 1 will amount to anything. If you have the time to keep the FBH website up to date... contact the FBH and offer to do it. Don't expect them to come on here and accept your offers.

As for the care sheets Dan, yes there was more than a gecko one done. There are many of them on the site in my signature.


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## Tops

Chris Newman said:


> _I am just going to post the last section of the presentation I gave at the OATA conference as I think it is very important……_
> 
> 
> The Animal Welfare Bill completed its parliamentary path earlier this month, becoming law in April 2007.
> *Unless pet keepers and the pet industry recognises and starts to address the threat posed by the Animal Rights industry within a decade the retailing of pets from pet shops will be consigned to history. *
> Within two decades the keeping of companion animals, pets, will be to all intents and purposes will be finished.
> If we ignore this threat, or treat it with the usual apathy, we shall follow the plethora of other species into extinction.
> So what do we need to do? First and foremost we must acknowledge the threat, *not simply bury our heads in the sand and say “it will never happen” - it will, it is! *
> We also need to be united, keepers, traders and trade associations.
> We need to redress the political imbalance, under the Animal Welfare Act. Remember all codes of practice, which underpin the Act, must be debated by parliament!
> Those who oppose the pet industry and pet keeping, RSPCA, IFAW, RSPB etc, all have political lobbying departments. There are at least ten full time political lobbyists opposed to our interests, whilst we have not one!
> Our future is in our hands. We have a duty of care to the animals which we keep, but we also have a duty to safeguard future generations’ rights to keep pets.
> 
> *Animal keeping is not a privilege it is a right, as it is our right to be free. *
> 
> 
> *Society can remove our rights, but only if we transgress the law. *
> 
> 
> *We cannot afford to allow the AR industry to dictate the law or our rights.*​


Thats all very stirring and passionate but still tells us nothing about what it is we could or should be doing.


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## Stubby

I've thought about joining the FBH on a number of occassions and keep checking their website, and keep getting put off. Was the website really last updated in 2005? Was the last FBH newsletter really produced in 2004? The news page was last updated in 2004. The last post in the forum appears to have been in April 07...

This puts people like me off. How do we know its an active organisation?

I'd love to join an organisation that I knew was actively fighting to defend our hobby. I've tried on my own by writing to my MP but had precisely zero response, and I think as individuals we are as a whole, powerless, but if we manage to get together with an organisation spearheading things then maybe we can make our voices heard.


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## ratboy

My personal view is that everything has become swamped by the AWA ( quite rightly as it is the biggest thing to happen to pet keeping in a long long time ) and the AWA is covered quite adequately by the FOCAS web site. 

I do agree that herpetological issues that are specifically being fought... such as the European species issue for example, should be updated to keep us informed about what is going on. Where to apply for licences etc should also be maintained on the FBH site.

Groups like Animal Aid for example must look at sites like the FBH and believe that the FBH is dead... just like members on here do.


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## wozza_t

i have just spent 2.5 hours carefully reading this thread, and to date, probably one of the best i have read.

I am no politian,(sp) i cant even make sure i spelt it right!!:lol2:, but i do know we need to invole the younger (aged between 8 and 15) keepers, as it is going to be them who in time will need to be counted, and for now, its there parents, without whom, they cannot keep there pets!

most of my reptiles will intime become my sons, i have breeding programs that will not even have started by the time this ban is said to start!

i also think the county groups need to be more accessable and we all need to become one, Liz and mark started the Reading reptile club, but to date, i have only known one meeting, for dodgy reasons i could not attend this one, but would love to go to the next, they also had the desentcy to get the local reptile shop involved and invited them to go along and share there experience.

I will be reading this thread with great intrest.

Can i also add, I WILL BE COUNTED! any way, any where, my intrest is in saving this hobby for my children, i started there love for reptiles so i am not going to be responsible for destroying it for them.

Warren.


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## Ssthisto

ratboy said:


> It seems to me that RFUK is not the place to be offering help. Given time this thread will just be forgotten like every other thread. If you are serious about offering help to any society or organisation get in touch *with them* and offer your help *to them*.


Done that. Sent e-mail to FBH. And from what it sounds like, the IHS already has someone doing it... 



> If you have the time to keep the FBH website up to date... contact the FBH and offer to do it. Don't expect them to come on here and accept your offers.


What, you mean the FBH doesn't have someone who reads the forums and keeps an eye on threads like this? You can bet the antis do!


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## ratboy

Ssthisto said:


> Done that. Sent e-mail to FBH. And from what it sounds like, the IHS already has someone doing it...


Nice one 



> What, you mean the FBH doesn't have someone who reads the forums and keeps an eye on threads like this? You can bet the antis do!


I would definately not put money on it !!!


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## LeeH

i was bored last night so made this..what you think peoples?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a337/monstermaze/fghdzfzt/poster3.jpg


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## Scott W

Extremely interesting thread with some great posts.

There is plenty I agree with, far too much to quote on.

Chris, would you be happy to hold an FBH meeting at an accessible location and then welcome ideas, suggestions and offers of help for the FBH?

Perhaps let those that attend know the current set up, what's missing, peoples key skills and most importantly a list of available volunteers and what they can offer (so far we have had a full website design & updates, free flyers and leaflets, those two alone are worth a fair £K, so what else is the FBH missing out on????)

I believe there is a mass of untapped potential within our reptile community and also believe that 90% of people would be willing to help and fight for their rights to continue keeping reptiles and other exotic pets, unfortunately 99% of them don't know what to do or who to ask.


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## brittone05

I agree Scott - if we can get a list drawn up of exactly what the FBH needs people to help with, we can then find the right people to do the jobs 

I am happy to help out as I have said - I have been doing some bits already and am also going to work on some possibly graphics work for posters/flyers etc - I am not fantastic on photoshop but I can have a try hey 

Could we maybe also contact primary schools nad such when the holidays are over and maybe organise a nationwide competition for youngsters to design the FBH's newest poster?? This would get th elittle ones interested and maybe reach a few more people in the process and could be a key factor to gaining some positive publicity??


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## DeanThorpe

Exactly... despite being a keen reptile keeper, who pretty much knows what he is doing, I still feel completely unable to lead, even a small group without the leaders I have come to accept taking front line [as i know chris and co does] and taking us with them.

Willing, and able to do anything that needs to be done and then some.


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## Stubby

Would also be interested in helping out if there was anything pratical/useful I could do.

I still think the BHS is missing out on a lot of members as looking at the website makes it look like the Society is dead. People aren't going to be real keen on sending money to a site thst hasn't been updated for what appears to be years.


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## brittone05

Could we also maybe start a new thread where people who have various skills in whatever field or are simply willing ot offer a little of thier time each week can pop their details up onto so that should Chris nad Rory and the others need someone for a specific job, they have a shortlist of volunteers?

I am happy to start the thread if people are up for it?


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## gargoyle1980

My strongest point is children. I've worked in childcare for 10 years and am used to designing competitions, wordsearches, quizzes etc. I'm willing to design some reptile related ones for use for the younger members.


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## brittone05

I don't know whether to start a new thread - maybe if people want to help, I could compile a list of volunteers to forward to Chris and Rory?

I am happy to deal with PM's and emails from people who feel they can offer something - be it time or experience?

Can be Pm'ed here or emailed via [email protected]

If you maybe send me over your name and email addy with a rough idea of what you would be happy to do (eg website stuff, researching stuff, designing stuff etc)

Obviously, I don't know if the FBH has a contact already who would take cr eof this so am offering and happy to so it until I am told otherwise


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## sparkle

Stubby said:


> Would also be interested in helping out if there was anything pratical/useful I could do.
> 
> I still think the BHS is missing out on a lot of members as looking at the website makes it look like the Society is dead. People aren't going to be real keen on sending money to a site thst hasn't been updated for what appears to be years.


 
agreed,,,

it needs to look snappy and current and friendly..

its a bit stuffy ..


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## Ssthisto

The BHS society page isn't actually half bad. It's reasonably well programmed and it has enough information on it.

The IHS society page doesn't even pass W3C validation. 

Neither does the FBH. 

The IHS society page is done in frames (very bad from a 'getting found' point of view) and doesn't look visually appealing nor does it "grab" you.

The FBH page hasn't been updated in years (or if it has, it doesn't LOOK like it has - the only dates on the home page are 2003/2004. If something's newer than that, put a date on it so it looks like it is!


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## Scott W

Now unfortunately this is where the FBH badly lets itself down, all this interest and offers of help but *NO DIRECTION* from the FBH.


If the positive side of this thread isn't acted upon by the FBH all those who spent their time posting and offering ideas will be disillusioned with the whole thing and the next rally for help will be even harder.

*DO NOT WASTE* this opportunity Chris. People are already heading off in different directions wanting to achieve something but it won't come to anything unless the FBH get involved!


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## Stubby

> The BHS society page isn't actually half bad. It's reasonably well programmed and it has enough information on it.


I stand humbly corrected, I was getting my acronyms mixed up, and meant the FBH...big oops


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## Guest

Scott W said:


> Now unfortunately this is where the FBH badly lets itself down, all this interest and offers of help but *NO DIRECTION* from the FBH.
> 
> 
> If the positive side of this thread isn't acted upon by the FBH all those who spent their time posting and offering ideas will be disillusioned with the whole thing and the next rally for help will be even harder.
> 
> *DO NOT WASTE* this opportunity Chris. People are already heading off in different directions wanting to achieve something but it won't come to anything unless the FBH get involved!


i second this : victory:


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## wozza_t

Scott W said:


> Now unfortunately this is where the FBH badly lets itself down, all this interest and offers of help but *NO DIRECTION* from the FBH.
> 
> 
> If the positive side of this thread isn't acted upon by the FBH all those who spent their time posting and offering ideas will be disillusioned with the whole thing and the next rally for help will be even harder.
> 
> *DO NOT WASTE* this opportunity Chris. People are already heading off in different directions wanting to achieve something but it won't come to anything unless the FBH get involved!


 
i think this is where it all fell to pieces last time, from what i have read.


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## pam b

TBH the thread seems to have gone totally off topic, Chris didnt come on here asking for help, he put up an information only post.
Now he's getting slated for something he never asked for in the first place, seems abit off to me :roll:. If the FBH committee want help i'm sure they know who to ask and will do it in private and not on an open forum, for reasons that have already been explained.
At least it looks like some meetings are being set up, so at least you can see you have a start there, but i fail to see how daily digging and critisisms(sp) will help.:banghead:

Just my opinion so dont shoot me.


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## ratboy

pam b said:


> TBH the thread seems to have gone totally off topic, Chris didnt come on here asking for help, he put up an information only post.


My thoughts exactly Pam. the first post I made on it said the same thing.

If you want to offer your help to the FBH then do so. Their website may be out of date but the email links do still work  If you are able to communicate to everyone what they should be doing in a way that keeps up interest and momentum... then contact them and offer to do it. By the sounds of it, there are lots of people waiting for someone to do just that.


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## Stubby

I guess I'll be shot down in flames, but I'm not willing to send membership money to an organisation that from all appearance doesn't appear to be active any more and hasn't been for several years- tis all I'm trying to say. It *is* a criticism, but I'm hoping its a constructive one as I'm sure I'm not the only person put off by the website right now. The website is the public face of the organisation and the way that prospective new members find out about them.

But yes, the information in the original post was very interesting to know.


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## ratboy

Stubby said:


> I guess I'll be shot down in flames, but I'm not willing to send membership money to an organisation that from all appearance doesn't appear to be active any more and hasn't been for several years- tis all I'm trying to say. It *is* a criticism, but I'm hoping its a constructive one as I'm sure I'm not the only person put off by the website right now. The website is the public face of the organisation and the way that prospective new members find out about them.


Hopefully no one will shoot you down in flames, the web site *IS* out of date and Ssthisto has kindly offered her help to the FBH to correct this situation. If it is stopping people from joining, let's hope they take her up on it.


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## Natrix

Patience people, things take time to organise. I’m ex FBH committee and I’m risking an ear bashing from ‘she who must be obeyed’ by getting involved again but I am trying to sort something out for the near future. 
Just keep the positive vibes going for a bit longer and give me a chance to get a few cogs turning. 
Gordon


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## pam b

Natrix said:


> Patience people, things take time to organise. I’m ex FBH committee and I’m risking an ear bashing from ‘she who must be obeyed’ by getting involved again but I am trying to sort something out for the near future.
> Just keep the positive vibes going for a bit longer and give me a chance to get a few cogs turning.
> Gordon


Ello matey, nice to see your still around.:razz:


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## Natrix

pam b said:


> Ello matey, nice to see your still around.:razz:


Hi Pam

Yep still around, been a busy with family stuff for the last 18 months but hopefully should get a bit more time for me in the near future.

Gordon


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## Scott W

pam b said:


> TBH the thread seems to have gone totally off topic, Chris didnt come on here asking for help, he put up an information only post.
> Now he's getting slated for something he never asked for in the first place, seems abit off to me :roll:. If the FBH committee want help i'm sure they know who to ask and will do it in private and not on an open forum, for reasons that have already been explained.
> At least it looks like some meetings are being set up, so at least you can see you have a start there, but i fail to see how daily digging and critisisms(sp) will help.:banghead:
> 
> Just my opinion so dont shoot me.


 
I haven't said Chris has asked for help and is now ignoring it, whaT I'm saying is that there are many cries of apathy but when people rally round and enthusiasm is generated there is NO ONE to help channel it into useful projects.

The FBH has had my full support from the moment I heard of them, the FBH has used my works facilities for meetings, I have been involved directly with them on several occasions for different working groups and I believe there is great potential in what the FBH is doing. I am not a sit in the back ground/behind a screen and whinge type of person, I get involved, I do things.

I completely stand by what I posted regarding a wasted opportunity and if the FBH hasn't even time to respond or progress any offers of help then I am really worried that it is a one man band outfit (Chris) and isn't going to achieve anywhere near what we need it to or what it could with all the help and input of a greater spread of people/skills.


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## pam b

Scott W said:


> I haven't said Chris has asked for help and is now ignoring it, whaT I'm saying is that there are many cries of apathy but when people rally round and enthusiasm is generated there is NO ONE to help channel it into useful projects.
> 
> The FBH has had my full support from the moment I heard of them, the FBH has used my works facilities for meetings, I have been involved directly with them on several occasions for different working groups and I believe there is great potential in what the FBH is doing. I am not a sit in the back ground/behind a screen and whinge type of person, I get involved, I do things.
> 
> I completely stand by what I posted regarding a wasted opportunity and if the FBH hasn't even time to respond or progress any offers of help then I am really worried that it is a one man band outfit (Chris) and isn't going to achieve anywhere near what we need it to or what it could with all the help and input of a greater spread of people/skills.


And i didnt say my post was aimed at you in particular.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Scott W

ah but you didn't state that it wasn't either :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


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## pam b

:rotfl:


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## Snakes r grreat

pam b said:


> TBH the thread seems to have gone totally off topic, Chris didnt come on here asking for help, he put up an information only post.
> Now he's getting slated for something he never asked for in the first place, seems abit off to me :roll:. If the FBH committee want help i'm sure they know who to ask and will do it in private and not on an open forum, for reasons that have already been explained.
> At least it looks like some meetings are being set up, so at least you can see you have a start there, but i fail to see how daily digging and critisisms(sp) will help.:banghead:
> 
> Just my opinion so dont shoot me.


 
I accept that Chris didnt start the thread to ask for help, he was merely trying to help explain things. Help has been offered though, and surely it would be silly not to accept it??

And yes, maybe we should be contacting the FBH directly, but i sent Chris a pm on this site several days ago, a simple yes or no was needed, it wasn't a personal question, yet still now i havent had a response, so i do wonder to myself what is the point of taking the time to contact them if i cant even get a 2 second answer??


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## pam b

I wouldnt take offence, i pm'd Chris myself and didnt get a reply, and i'd class myself a mate(albeit i havnt seen him in years, my fault), i really am not offended, he litterally doesnt have alot of time and may not have noticed, i find it hard to notice pm's on this site myself as you dont get alerts, unless i have set something wrong that is!


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## Tops

pam b said:


> I wouldnt take offence, i pm'd Chris myself and didnt get a reply, and i'd class myself a mate(albeit i havnt seen him in years, my fault), i really am not offended, he litterally doesnt have alot of time and may not have noticed, i find it hard to notice pm's on this site myself as you dont get alerts, unless i have set something wrong that is!


You can set it up for email alerts and popups when you enter the website when you get a new pm


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## pam b

bum, cheers Tops, i will investigate that, i'm sure some people think im being rude and its just i havnt spotted it.


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## purejurrasic

come on guys, rome wasnt built in a day !

no chris didnt ask for help, he posted some informative info for us, which developed and out of which has come this notion that maybe the big societies are not as notieable to those in the hobby as maybe they should be. 

Some suggestions have been made as to how that may be delt with and some great offers of help made.

However, I dare say its not just down to chris to take this on, he may need to refer it back to his committee etc. these things never happen overnight.

Maybe though, chis is so over worked he does need to relise that help is needed, and try to put it in when its available allowing him to focus on his role. certainly communications...the one thing that bugs everyone these days is waiting for a reply !


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## brittone05

I agree Purejurassic - I think the main problem is that Chris is one of the only people who stand frontline to deal with legisltive issues and such.

I am unsure if anyone else would know the whole political side of things as well as Chris and a limited number of others.

I think maybe a key idea is to certainly think about is creating contacts for people who have other questions about things that arne't fully to do with legislational changes and such?

Just a thought 

Also, I know many people have offered to help via this thread - I am most certainly one of them. I offered also to create a shortlist of contacts to forward to Chris and Rory to make it easier for them without having to trawl threads seeing who can do what - I have only had 1 PM in regards to this and no emails


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*mmm*

It would appear that the gentle winds of satisfaction and curiousity, are being dampened by lack of responses.

I talk to Chris more or less everyday. He is busy, also computers are not his forte, so setting things up for alerts is not really what he sets out to do. He comes on, makes a post and then leaves and gets on with legislation.

But also like many others here he is a family man, and must find time to spend with them.

So websites are not looking great, it happens, or communications are poor if not slim, it happens. 

I have been away from my office for the last three days, and l shall now be working on the discussion audience for later this year.

Ideas will be welcomed there, and l feel sure Chris will take on board all suggestions.

Rory


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## Chris Newman

Can I just say if people have PM’d me and I haven’t responded, don’t be offended, I simple haven’t read them. To say computers are not my thing is a slight understatement, I hate the wretched things as they constantly argue with me, or more infuriatingly sulk and ignore me. With luck I can just about turn the ruddy thing on, anything more complicated than that and I have to get one of the kids to sort it out. Do you have any idea how embarrassing that your seven 11 year old kid know more about computers than you do!

There have been some very good suggestions on this thread and I/we will take them onboard. The important issue to bear in mind is if you support the keeping of animals, reptiles or other then we are on the same side. 

I will read throw all the pages of this thread and will respond in detail to the issued raise latter. If people have suggestions then keep them coming, all suggestions/comments welcome – just keep them constructive……


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Thread analysis*

Hopefully today, l will be posting a sypnosis of all the ideas and suggestions posted within this thread by keepers for your viewing.

The Pro Keepers' Lobby research team have been looking through this thread and others with a view to opening their own thread up, it will l hope make it easier for all readers to see what basically the thread is a combination of and more to the point will show that your thoughts are being pooled and reviewed.

Rory Matier


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## jav07

The Pro Keepers' Lobby
who?


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## brittone05

Pro Keepers Lobby | "Left Wing Right Politics!"

Nip over and take a peek


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## jav07

brittone05 said:


> Pro Keepers Lobby | "Left Wing Right Politics!"
> 
> Nip over and take a peek


i am tired..but does it ask for suggestions?..is it a support site..free advice sort of thing


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*not yet*

Hi, 

PKL came about as a result of something more positive wanting to be done.

Only a few people are aware of its presence as the initial concept about campaigning was stated that once we achieved 100 results from the community - only then would we start.

Dan Fryer was involved in the initial phasing, hence why Dan knows my opinions about the industry and l know a lot of his.

As l have said, Dan does have some very valid points in his writings, and l do like strong minded people, Dan is strong minded.

But PKL is not specifically aimed at anything in particular at present, just geared up and waiting to see market and fraternity responses to various political elements.

Our first step was to raise awareness with keepers and our second step was to encourage action, once we had identified the points we needed to act on.

Also, it was to be more of an political aggressor side to the opposition but also to apathy.

Rory


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## jav07

Our first step was to raise awareness with keepers and our second step was to encourage action, once we had identified the points we needed to act on.
but people were already incouraged near the start of this thread/lots of people willing to help, all they wanted was to know how.
would it not be better to identify the points you need to act on and then raise awareness?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi, 

The website was up long before this thread came into being.

I think that what Brit was trying to do was just encourage viewings to the website itself, irespective to the fact that this thread then came into being.

Plus, PKL was not looking for the usual points of interest, but would have been paying attention to items and topics like, skunk descenting, primate keeping and the dwal.

R


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## 1949_sam

Wow 26 pages thats great :no1:i've only read 11 :icon_redface: anyone like to fill me in? Oh i feel such an arse....


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## Natrix

I know that several people on this thread expressed an interest in helping/working with the FBH. I have had a chat with Chris and several of the committee members about arranging an informal get together for a small number of people so that we can all talk face to face and see where things lead.
The Essex Reptile club have kindly said that it will be fine to hold this get together durring the afternoon of their show later this month. Space will be limited so this really is just for those interested in getting involved. 
Nothing like this has been done before so There will be no set agenda and the discussion will go were ever those attending choose to take it. 

*For those that are interested in helping, please PM me.*

For those of you that just want to hear whats happening and get up to date with animal related, political events, Rory is in the process of arranging several events for the near future that will be dotted around the country. So watch this space. 

Information on the Essex show is as follows

Essex Reptile and Amphibian Club (ERAC) 
Reptile Hobyists Meeting
*Sunday 23 rd September*
Doors open 10.30 am

BAE Systems, Sport and Leisure Club
Gardiners Way
Gardiners Lane South
Basildon
Essex
SS14 3AP


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