# Long term keeping and venom allergies?



## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't quite know how to phrase the topic name but...

I heard of something like this before a long time ago but it may be rumour.

Is it possible that a person keeping venomous for many years may become allergic to being around the snakes and never having being bitten?

For example, the droplets of venom in an enclosure and on glass doors evaporating or so to speak?

And if an allergy is possible what sort of allergy would be predicted/expected unless it depends on the different specimens kept and from different families like from elapids to viperids?

Something that's had me thinking for a long long time but never asked anyone that can say that it is possible to be allergic to being in the same room.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

It is very possible to start developing allergic reactions to it.
Guys that keep spitters are most prone to it. 
Bryan Fry actually wrote an article about it.

Anaphylaxis and the Venomous Keeper


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

What Martin said...

And venom researchers can develope allergies aswell because they are incontact with raw or processed venom every other day.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

thats a good article, its referenced in the back of B W Smith's book, interesting stuff. people working with powdered venon are prone to it as well I believe.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

yes but isn't developing some allergy to hots just as rare as developing any allergy?

i mean loads of people have various allergies but they are a tiny minority when compared to the overall population right?

the odds of someone being prone to developing an allergy to say venom AND actually keeping hots too would be insanely tiny i would think...

for instance, there's nothing that i am allergic to and with that in mind, wouldn't it be pert near impossible for myself to develope an allergy to such things??

... wouldn't the possibilities for a typical human with no allergies be almost nil?

maybe someone with an allergy problem could be more likely to have an allergic reaction to venom or something since they are predisposed to allergies to begin with??

... or do i just need to drink some more coffee this morning...?: victory::lol2:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

HABU said:


> yes but isn't developing some allergy to hots just as rare as developing any allergy?
> 
> i mean loads of people have various allergies but they are a tiny minority when compared to the overall population right?
> 
> ...


 
its venom that is dry and breathed in that people are more prone to develop allergies from and I dont think it is that uncommon for people that work day in day out with spitting cobras or dried venom, someone correct me if im wrong, but i do think it is pretty uncommon for your average snake keeper.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

HABU said:


> yes but isn't developing some allergy to hots just as rare as developing any allergy?
> 
> i mean loads of people have various allergies but they are a tiny minority when compared to the overall population right?
> 
> ...


 
LOL - Drink more coffee, and then read the article. It should answer most of those questions and thoughts....I am halfway through and am facinated, and it has turnt me off of Horses for life! :gasp:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> LOL - Drink more coffee, and then read the article. It should answer most of those questions and thoughts....I am halfway through and am facinated, and it has turnt me off of Horses for life! :gasp:


 
roger that... it's brewing as we speak...: victory:


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

SiUK said:


> its venom that is dry and breathed in that people are more prone to develop allergies from and I dont think it is that uncommon for people that work day in day out with spitting cobras or dried venom, someone correct me if im wrong, but i do think it is pretty uncommon for your average snake keeper.


 
Surely it may depend on how much venom you're in contact with, and what Genera it is.

I would say if you take the right precautions, you should be OK.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

well i was feral as a child and lived in the dirt... likely i was exposed to so much crap as a kid that my immune system is very developed...

those folks living in sheltered, sterile conditions seem to be the allergy prone ones...


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

HABU said:


> well i was feral as a child and lived in the dirt... likely i was exposed to so much crap as a kid that my immune system is very developed...
> 
> *those folks living in sheltered, sterile conditions seem to be the allergy prone ones...*


 
Chris Harpers article proves this statement to be a balenced arguement.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

I believe guys working with spitters are most prone to it.
One of the guys I used to work with used to break out quickly when entering the venom room that housed the spitters. Dried venom is inhaled etc.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> I believe guys working with spitters are most prone to it.
> One of the guys I used to work with used to break out quickly when entering the venom room that housed the spitters. Dried venom is inhaled etc.


 
Sounds dodgy, especially if you're one of the kind of people that, as HABU said is prone to going down with anything.

Could inhaling dried venom also be dangerous for the envenomation side if you manage to be unlucky enough to inhale a large enough amount over a small amount of time?


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Snake venoms, for the most part, are fairly weak when compared to other venomous animals. It takes a reasonable amount to cause serious harm. So unless you sniff a teaspoon full, you should be okay. 
Its the same as getting poked with, say, a Puff Adder fang laying in poop. The poop will cause far more damage than the minuscule amount of venom that is still left in the fang.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> *Snake venoms, for the most part, are fairly weak when compared to other venomous animals. It takes a reasonable amount to cause serious harm. So unless you sniff a teaspoon full, you should be okay.*


Oh..ok. But what if the snake's venom is very toxic, say a Black Mamba, or worse an Inland Taipan? Would it take a lot less then a Teaspoon? concidering it only takes a drop or two, if that to kill an adult human without treatment.



> Its the same as getting poked with, say, a Puff Adder fang laying in poop. The poop will cause far more damage than the minuscule amount of venom that is still left in the fang.


 
Interesting, so this suggests that fangs are hazardous even if they have been detatched from the animal for quite some time? Would the fang be more dangerous depending on the toxicity of the snake?


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

The previous Head of our Unit became highly sensitized to snake venoms. There were enough venom particles floating around in the air of the Herpetarium for him to feel unwell.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

No, it would still take around the same amount, in my opinion. But only the powers will know how you got to sniff even half that amount of venom. And why you would.
The first thing you need to do is to learn how venom works. Once you have learnt that, you will answer your own question 

Yes they are, viper fangs in particular. Simply due to the large size.
I don't think toxicity will make much of a difference.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Also, that drop or two is something documentaries have over emphasized.
How much is a drop? Its the same as saying "how long is a piece of string?"


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

PDR said:


> The previous Head of our Unit became highly sensitized to snake venoms. There were enough venom particles floating around in the air of the Herpetarium for him to feel unwell.


 
You have more contact with the animals and the venom than most people in the Herpetarium don't you?

Have you ever fealt unwell due to breathing in venom particles floating around the area you're working in?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> Also, that drop or two is something documentaries have over emphasized.
> How much is a drop? Its the same as saying "how long is a piece of string?"


 
I, personally concider a drop to something that falls from a Pipett once gently squeezed.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Okay.
Using that measurement, how much is that exactly?


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

A better way would be to say:

10 mg of Dendroaspis polylepis venom is potentially lethal.

Note "potentially". There are many other factors that will decide the volume needed for a lethal dose.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

mad martin said:


> A better way would be to say:
> 
> 10 mg of Dendroaspis polylepis venom is potentially lethal.
> 
> Note "potentially". There are many other factors that will decide the volume needed for a lethal dose.


 
10mg is a "drop"?

Potentially is a good way to put it actually...Everybody is diferent, everybody has a different emmune system, and one may have been bitten before by Dendroaspis polylepis so would that determine whether that 10mg of venom is lethal the second time around or not?


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

No. Wow!!!
10 mg is not necessarily a drop. That is my point. A drop is not a measurement in any way, shape or form.

Again, learn how venom works, and you will answer your own question.
These are the factors I mean:

a child weighing 20 kg will die easier from 10 mg than a man weighing 140 kg.
an old person with a dodgy immune system will also succumb quicker.
a person with allergies etc.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> You have more contact with the animals and the venom than most people in the Herpetarium don't you?
> 
> Have you ever fealt unwell due to breathing in venom particles floating around the area you're working in?


sounds like the beginning of one of those erectile disfuction adverts


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> sounds like the beginning of one of those erectile disfuction adverts


LOL!

Depends on how you say it. :whip:


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> You have more contact with the animals and the venom than *most people in the Herpetarium* don't you?
> 
> Have you ever fealt unwell due to breathing in venom particles floating around the area you're working in?


There is only one full time worker in our Herpetarium.... ME. I normally have help from other members of Staff for no more than 1-3 hours per week.
No. I’ve not had any problems around venom or venomous snakes.



ViperLover said:


> I, personally concider a drop to something that falls from a Pipett once gently squeezed.


 
If you are using a typical laboratory pipette, you should be able to tell us precisely the size of the “drop” because you will have set the pipette to deliver a given amount.
The amount of venom transferred by a plastic disposable pipette would depend upon the viscosity and how long it had been since leaving the snake’s venom gland.
How are you measuring your “mg” of venom? Wet weight or dried? Virtually all of the venom weighing I do is with freeze-dried venom.


mad martin said:


> No. Wow!!!
> 10 mg is not necessarily a drop. That is my point. A drop is not a measurement in any way, shape or form.
> 
> Again, learn how venom works, and you will answer your own question.
> ...


 
Agreed, it just goes to prove that James does not understand a lot of what he posts or regurgitates from other people’s posts.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

PDR said:


> Agreed, it just goes to prove that James does not understand a lot of what he posts or regurgitates from other people’s posts.


Obviously..... LOL
This is similar to a question I asked on another of his threads that you and WW answered for me.....
Now we get the VL version.... LOL
Viperlover..... Learn to read without moving your lips... LOL
Your mentor list is getting shorter with every answer you give....


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> Viperlover..... Learn to read without moving your lips... LOL
> Your mentor list is getting shorter with every answer you give....


I'll mentor him....if he can successfully remove my scrub python egg clutch from the mother withouth getting tagged then he can become a padawan


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> I'll mentor him....if he can successfully remove my scrub python egg clutch from the mother withouth getting tagged then he can become a padawan


Sounds like a challenge, But I'd give it a go.

One thing that deffinately pisses off ALL female animals....Going near their offspring, or offspring to be.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> Sounds like a challenge, But I'd give it a go.


youve kind proven my point....your willing to try uncoil a 12ft wc python from its eggs....your braver than me


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> youve kind proven my point....your willing to try uncoil a 12ft wc python from its eggs....your braver than me


 
If the eggs need incubating, then there's no other way other then to get stuck in and try and get the eggs, or persuade her to move.

I could try what Jay Brewer does, and place a lid or something next to her head so as she couldn't bite me.

Do you let the eggs sit there in the viv?


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> If the eggs need incubating, then there's no other way other then to get stuck in and try and get the eggs, or persuade her to move.


oh right,,,my bad, didnt realise you had experince with indo pythons


i allow all my scrubs to do natural incubation


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> oh right,,,my bad, didnt realise you had experince with indo pythons
> 
> 
> i allow all my scrubs to do natural incubation


 
How do you do that? Vivarium heat?


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

james il give you one thing mate i dont think iv ever met anyone quite as thick skinned as you lol!


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ViperLover said:


> How do you do that? Vivarium heat?


not really...the mother does all the work with muscle movements


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## xxstaggyxx (Oct 22, 2008)

These threads get very fun when james posts james you have some very skilled DWA keepers here and also some very good non- DWA keepers here take in what they say listen learn what you are doing is if and when you go for your DWA and need advice the DWA keepers on here will not even entertain you just sit back back and look at it from another person perspective and what you have been posting and saying you are only 16 just seems to me that some of your posts with the information seems like a copy and paste job from google i would say get a corn and move up from there just give a rest now and just read and learn and start from the bottom and work your way up also spend some time in the non dwa snakes area there people there would be more then happy to give you advice it just seem all the advice the DWA keepers have given you here you have not taken in at all in one ear and out the next well thats just my 2 sense please reply back if you think i am wrong on any points i have raised 

Cheers 
Andy


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I've got a 12' male scrub here you could take on James.............I'll lay good money that you wouldn't even get it's water bowl out without donating blood, let alone getting a mother off her eggs!
In fact, I'd wager that even my 4' GTP would make you think twice about going near her a second time

Andy from Plymouth..........I have one word to say.......... PUNCTUATION!!!!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

I am developing a long term allergy to ViperLover!!!!


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> I've got a 12' male scrub here you could take on James.............I'll lay good money that you wouldn't even get it's water bowl out without donating blood, let alone getting a mother off her eggs!
> In fact, I'd wager that even my 4' GTP would make you think twice about going near her a second time
> 
> Andy from Plymouth..........I have one word to say.......... PUNCTUATION!!!!


I got an adult male Northern Pine thats so good at bluffing, I doubt he'd get his water bowl out... And no blood would be involved.... LOL
In fact Sid my Pit has stopped people who own snakes and I've reassured he's safe, in their tracks.......


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

James, there is a *huge* difference between being an “Internet, U-tube armchair expert” like yourself and a seasoned (venomous) snake keeper. 
You really need to go out and get some experience with harmless beginner’s snakes and then work your way up to boas and pythons... and only then after years gaining experience with these should you ever consider going for venomous species.

By saying you would “try and get the eggs” and “place a lid or something next to her head so as she couldn't bite me” you prove that you have no understanding or comprehension of what pythons are like to work with or the sort of damage they can inflict. 

At this point in time you would be a liability keeping any large boas or pythons and downright dangerous anywhere near anything venomous.
Just take it one step at a time like everyone else, learn the basics and put them into practise with a corn or king snake.

What you are trying to do (wanting venomous) is the equivalent of someone who has never learnt to swim reading a book on “how to swim” and then diving into the local river... it is a recipe for disaster.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

slippery42 said:


> I am developing a long term allergy to ViperLover!!!!


I think it is a case of :2wallbang::2wallbang::2wallbang::2wallbang:
I have never seen anyone given so much sound advice by so many experienced people and then just simply ignore it. :roll:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Paul, you need to chill out, it won't be good for your blood pressure!!!:lol2:


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Paul, you need to chill out, it won't be good for your blood pressure!!!:lol2:


My blood pressure is fine and I’m perfectly chilled :2thumb:
It takes a hell of a lot more than the contents of this forum to wind me up.... in fact I find it quite relaxing to watch TV and type away on my laptop.:smile:


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I used to know a guy when i used to race.... he would go on to the forums saying he was going to race top fuel dragster etc, and was just like Viperlover, a complete internet armchair expert then one day he eventually bought a dragster just a small engined one the equivalent of a corn snake.(for people who don’t know top fuel would be the equivalent to DWA 1/4 mile in 4 seconds and 330+mph) The car he bought was a friend of mine and i went to help the kid out with his first runs down the strip. he did one run it scared the life out of him and he was never seen again. 
viperlover has all the hallmarks of doing the same thing.
If he was as serious about getting into herping as he says he is, why does he take NO NOTICE WHATSOEVER OF ANYBODY AT ALL EVER?????
I have like many others spoke to him through PM's a couple of weeks ago and i gave him advice, i even offered to get him a corn snake as a friend of mine has a few young to get rid of, but he still comes on here asking questions, which, in my opinion, are of no real use to him. If he must know the answers to the questions read a book or Google it as countless people have suggested.
He keeps banging on about how he wants to learn and uses this as a form of defence for coming on here and asking this and that or replying with unqualified replies to posts on subjects he has no real comprehending of.
To this end have not bother directly replying to his posts for the last couple of weeks. He has PM'd me asking to have a conversation on FB, which i know a couple of guys on here have done but Viperlover you have more chance of platting fog!!!!
I commend PDR, STU AND PAUL and the rest of the people who are far more tolerant and have more patience than me, but im afraid i think we are fighting a lost cause here. The guy has either by accident or on purpose turned into a troll.
If what i have said sounds a bit harsh then im sorry but i can only comment on how i personally see it.

Sits back and waits for flack:whistling2:


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## xxstaggyxx (Oct 22, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> I used to know a guy when i used to race.... he would go on to the forums saying he was going to race top fuel dragster etc, and was just like Viperlover, a complete internet armchair expert then one day he eventually bought a dragster just a small engined one the equivalent of a corn snake.(for people who don’t know top fuel would be the equivalent to DWA 1/4 mile in 4 seconds and 330+mph) The car he bought was a friend of mine and i went to help the kid out with his first runs down the strip. he did one run it scared the life out of him and he was never seen again.
> viperlover has all the hallmarks of doing the same thing.
> If he was as serious about getting into herping as he says he is, why does he take NO NOTICE WHATSOEVER OF ANYBODY AT ALL EVER?????
> I have like many others spoke to him through PM's a couple of weeks ago and i gave him advice, i even offered to get him a corn snake as a friend of mine has a few young to get rid of, but he still comes on here asking questions, which, in my opinion, are of no real use to him. If he must know the answers to the questions read a book or Google it as countless people have suggested.
> ...


Bloody well sed


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## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> Sounds like a challenge, But I'd give it a go.
> 
> I think I might start selling tickets for this extravaganzer. Roll up roll up get your tickets ere. Form an orderly queue now, only a thousand for sale.:whistling2:


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

paraman said:


> I think I might start selling tickets for this extravaganzer. Roll up roll up get your tickets ere. Form an orderly queue now, only a thousand for sale.:whistling2:


i dont think he understands the seriously of these animals...even non venomous snakes....this was a quick bite from a very small male scrub while he was having a dump and i was trying to change his water bowl and caught me off guard










now he wants to try it with a 12ft wc female guarding her eggs:whistling2:


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## xxstaggyxx (Oct 22, 2008)

wildlifewarrior said:


> i dont think he understands the seriously of these animals...even non venomous snakes....this was a quick bite from a very small male scrub while he was having a dump and i was trying to change his water bowl and caught me off guard
> 
> image
> 
> now he wants to try it with a 12ft wc female guarding her eggs:whistling2:


I think he should be making his last will and testiment with the huge hole he is digging


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

scrub


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## paraman (Oct 27, 2007)

wildlifewarrior said:


> i dont think he understands the seriously of these animals...even non venomous snakes....this was a quick bite from a very small male scrub while he was having a dump and i was trying to change his water bowl and caught me off guard
> 
> image
> 
> now he wants to try it with a 12ft wc female guarding her eggs:whistling2:


Ive got a reasonable track record with spitefull snakes venomous and otherwise, our scrub was one that I took extreme care with, he was wickedly strong and aggressive and even changing water was a challenge, it didnt help that he could, and frequently did strike the full length of the viv. Certainly not a snake to underestimate.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> image
> 
> scrub


a love bite 



paraman said:


> Ive got a reasonable track record with spitefull snakes venomous and otherwise, our scrub was one that I took extreme care with, he was wickedly strong and aggressive and even changing water was a challenge, it didnt help that he could, and frequently did strike the full length of the viv. Certainly not a snake to underestimate.


thing is scrubs can be very gentle and tame...but only with CB ones that are handled from a baby. Ive got 14 adults and most of them will try kill you no problem...plus the strike range on them is stupidly long


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

i think i might get a scrub they seem to very afectionate look at all the lovely kisses they give.

on a more serious note how much are these nowerdays when i had my python fetish (10 years ago) i always wanted them but never found them in uk.
and wildlife warrior do you breed the viper boas???? if so PM me would be interested in purchasing


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> i think i might get a scrub they seem to very afectionate look at all the lovely kisses they give.
> 
> on a more serious note how much are these nowerdays when i had my python fetish (10 years ago) i always wanted them but never found them in uk.
> and wildlife warrior do you breed the viper boas???? if so PM me would be interested in purchasing


I dont no what the current retail prices are for them....i imported most of my scrubs in my self, but the rough price for cb babies for barnecks is £200 for sorongs and about £175 for merauke(AKA southerns).
Although all of mine sell for £100 each.

yep i breed them, sadly for you you would ahve to join the back of the waiting list: victory:


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> I dont no what the current retail prices are for them....i imported most of my scrubs in my self, but the rough price for cb babies for barnecks is £200 for sorongs and about £175 for merauke(AKA southerns).
> Although all of mine sell for £100 each.
> 
> yep i breed them, sadly for you you would ahve to join the back of the waiting list: victory:


oohh come on my sername stars with B so i cant be at the back of the list:lol2:
And i dont live far away
And i have proberbly been after them 15 years
And i fought for my country
And your my favourite contributer on this site
And i am really really good at kissing ass
And lots of other reasons as well


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> oohh come on my sername stars with B so i cant be at the back of the list:lol2:
> And i dont live far away
> And i have proberbly been after them 15 years
> And i fought for my country
> ...


my surname starts with C so that means you get them before me:gasp:

sorry dude but i can get you adults around march time if you still want some: victory:


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> I used to know a guy when i used to race.... he would go on to the forums saying he was going to race top fuel dragster etc, and was just like Viperlover, a complete internet armchair expert then one day he eventually bought a dragster just a small engined one the equivalent of a corn snake.(for people who don’t know top fuel would be the equivalent to DWA 1/4 mile in 4 seconds and 330+mph) The car he bought was a friend of mine and i went to help the kid out with his first runs down the strip. he did one run it scared the life out of him and he was never seen again.
> viperlover has all the hallmarks of doing the same thing.
> If he was as serious about getting into herping as he says he is, why does he take NO NOTICE WHATSOEVER OF ANYBODY AT ALL EVER?????
> I have like many others spoke to him through PM's a couple of weeks ago and i gave him advice, i even offered to get him a corn snake as a friend of mine has a few young to get rid of, but he still comes on here asking questions, which, in my opinion, are of no real use to him. If he must know the answers to the questions read a book or Google it as countless people have suggested.
> ...


That guy sounds a bit like me and my pursuit of Venomous....
Except I wasn't scared... Honest..... I couldn't afford the fuel.... LOL



wildlifewarrior said:


> i dont think he understands the seriously of these animals...even non venomous snakes....this was a quick bite from a very small male scrub while he was having a dump and i was trying to change his water bowl and caught me off guard
> 
> image
> 
> now he wants to try it with a 12ft wc female guarding her eggs:whistling2:


You done that with felt tip pens... Didn't you... LOL



stuartdouglas said:


> image
> 
> scrub


It was loviun you... LOL



wildlifewarrior said:


> a love bite
> 
> 
> thing is scrubs can be very gentle and tame...but only with CB ones that are handled from a baby. Ive got 14 adults and most of them will try kill you no problem...plus the strike range on them is stupidly long


Thats Morelia for you... So much upper body strength... They are deceivingly agile to those not familiar with them.....


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> Thats Morelia for you... So much upper body strength... They are deceivingly agile to those not familiar with them.....


Very true mate, your burms and retics are big and long sure, but nothing can out beat morelia for strength, espically aboreal.....and 12ft+ of muscle thats just as good off ground and on is a bugger to mess with


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

wildlifewarrior said:


> Very true mate, your burms and retics are big and long sure, but nothing can out beat morelia for strength, espically aboreal.....and 12ft+ of muscle thats just as good off ground and on is a bugger to mess with


It's the reach of Morelia that got me the first time I saw it....
All the body out straight with just the tail to anchor.... Un real....


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