# Starting a Venomous snake collection.



## ViperLover

I am 16 years of age, lazy and unwilling to work. I am wanting to get into the venomous reptile keeping community but my shoes stink of dog faeces. I live in Southampton and I do not know anybody local to me, or nearby to help mentor me and give me the correct training and experience before I take the time to transform a spare room into a hot room of sordid self manipulation, and to apply for my permits. I have always wanted to keep venomous snakes and get a girlfriend but neither will probably ever happen, but I am not entirely sure on permit purchasing, mentors and breeders local to me. I will oneday probably apply to work at LTSM, but even before I don't get an interview will make up excuses as to why I couldn't take the job. Im such a massive bell end, Please could you help? Thankyou.


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## hexem

You have to be 18.

: victory:


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## stuartdouglas

Welcome, always nice to get new arrivals so to speak. As stated above, the minimum age for issue of a Dangerous Wild Animals license is 18. You need to apply to your local Authority for this and the costs and conditions of issue vary from LA to LA. 
I'm not sure about mentoring, it's a bit of a touchy subject on here, some are in favour of it, some are dead set against it. Try getting in touch with a local reptile club, you've got P.R.A.S just down the road from you, they might have members that keep venomous.


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## SiUK

Hey mate as the others have said you have to be 18 but a good start along with finding someone in your area that keeps already, is read.

Read as much as you can get as much in your head and knowledge about venomous snakes, envenomations, husbandry, different species, natural habitats just anything you can. It will set you in good stead and when you turn up to your council you will have the theory knowledge behind you to back up your application, you can confidently answer any questions they throw at you and generally be knowlegable about the snakes you want to keep, its more than a hobby you have to be passionate about it, prepared for the dangers and willing to learn.

Theres loads of good books about some cheap some not so, but if you want to know good books to get then im sure all the guys on here can throw some at you.


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## trueviper

Are you keeping any snake species in captivity at the moment?
Some might suggest, as you are still quite young, that you begin by keeping slightly aggressive but obviously non-venomous snakes as a way of gaining experiance with handling, cleaning, feeding ect.

You could keep these snakes as if they were venomous and it would be a very good way to help you adopt the mentality needed for keeping them.


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## ViperLover

*Hello....*

Currently not keeping any venomous species.

It is a good idea, but I'd much rather keep something like a False Water Cobra or a Southern Copperhead which isn't DWA.


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## tengalms

ViperLover said:


> Currently not keeping any venomous species.
> 
> It is a good idea, but I'd much rather keep something like a False Water Cobra or a Southern Copperhead which isn't DWA.


 
Wrong,copperheads are DWA,FWCs are not.

Roy.


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## SiUK

all front fanged venomous snakes are DWA, as Roy said a copperhead is most definately included on the schedule.


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## mad martin

So would a Boomslang then not be DWA? Since it is a rear fanged snake.


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## Jczreptiles

While you are too young it may still be a good idea to get familiar with using a hook on some more agressive non-DWA species, just to get some practice in, Nothing will prepare you for the real thing really but it is a start.


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## tengalms

mad martin said:


> So would a Boomslang then not be DWA? Since it is a rear fanged snake.


Hi Martin,Boomslangs are DWA.

Roy.


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## SiUK

theres a couple of rear fanged species on the list as well, but only those deemed medically significant


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## ViperLover

Yes a Boomslang is classed as a DWA, The Venom is just as toxic as most Elapids. And the Antivenin isn't 100% guaranteed to work.

And ohh really.....A Southern Copperhead being DWA....Thats highly suprising because no deaths have been reported in about 7 years, and its the most common snake to be tagged by in the United States. The majority of SC bites aren't even treated with Crofab, just a course of antibiotics.


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## SiUK

No anti-venom is 100% garanteed to do the job safely and effectively, there are alot of envenomations where symptoms are treated without anti venom, its certainly not a miracle cure there are many problems that come with administration of AV, obviously serious bites are treated with AV because theres no other treatment thats as effective, but its not without its problems.

Also theres snakes on the DWA list that haven't killed anybody at all, but they are still front fanged venomous snakes, some vipers and some elapids as well. Copperheads as a general rule, because theres not that much variation between the venom of the 5 subspecies, are non fatal but people envenomated are still in a whole world of pain, loss of digits and hospital treatment is commonly needed, they are a snake that alot of people don't take seriously because they hear about them being non fatal, but they are dangerous. No one has died from an exotic snake bite here in the UK for a great number of years, but that doesnt take away the dangerousness of the snakes that people have been bitten by, you just have to commend the doctors here in the UK that treat the envenomations.


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## ViperLover

*Mentoring.*

So is there anybody close to Southampton who would be interested in mentoring me with their collection? Please.


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## ViperLover

Yes, But some Anti-serums work better then others.


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## hexem

ViperLover said:


> So is there anybody close to Southampton who would be interested in mentoring me with their collection? Please.


You wont find anyone willing to until you're 18, liability issues, insurance etc, they can't risk the possibility of a 16 year old getting bitten and having there ass sued and alot more, you're best bet is reading and learning all you can, taking courses at college/uni in the direction of working with exotics.: victory:


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## Jczreptiles

hexem said:


> You wont find anyone willing to until you're 18, liability issues, insurance etc, they can't risk the possibility of a 16 year old getting bitten and having there ass sued and alot more, you're best bet is reading and learning all you can, taking courses at college/uni in the direction of working with exotics.: victory:


 Why don't you try a fiesty rear fanged snake to practice with first, a false water cobra would be good to start with or possibly a mangrove.


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## ViperLover

Jczreptiles said:


> Why don't you try a fiesty rear fanged snake to practice with first, a false water cobra would be good to start with or possibly a mangrove.


I was thinking this.

I need some mentoring aswell though...

I am confident I can avoid being bitten.....All I need to start with is observation for body posture......Hands on mentoring can come at the age of 18......so as if I am bitten it will be my own fault.


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## ViperLover

Anybody know of any local breeders to me where I can purchase a Mangrove snake or a False Water Cobra??

And where I can get vivariums and snake handling equipment, and rodents


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## Azemiops

ViperLover said:


> Yes a Boomslang is classed as a DWA, The Venom is just as toxic as most Elapids. And the Antivenin isn't 100% guaranteed to work.





ViperLover said:


> Yes, But some Anti-serums work better then others.


Why are you stating something that you clearly know nothing about? Boomslang monovalent antivenom is one of the most effective anitvenoms beings produced. If you read through any bite reports from this species where antivenom has been administered, you will see that the antivenom is highly effective and works very quickly, even when administered a long time after the bite.

If your looking for advice and mentoring, then please fire away with any questions you may have. There are plenty of experienced keepers who visit this forum who may be able to help. But there is definately no need for you to try and make yourself look more intelligent than your are by stating incorrect facts. You already tried to hand out advice on copperheads by stating 'A Copperhead will just generally sit there untill you start agrivating it'. Exactly how may have you worked with for you to justify handing out this advice? And you then went on to say that copperheads are not DWA.....

I know that many people are getting bored sensless by the 'arm-chair experts' that routinely hand out incorrect advice on this part of the forum. No wonder its going down the pan...


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## ViperLover

Azemiops said:


> Why are you stating something that you clearly know nothing about? Boomslang monovalent antivenom is one of the most effective anitvenoms beings produced. If you read through any bite reports from this species where antivenom has been administered, you will see that the antivenom is highly effective and works very quickly, even when administered a long time after the bite.
> 
> If your looking for advice and mentoring, then please fire away with any questions you may have. There are plenty of experienced keepers who visit this forum who may be able to help. But there is definately no need for you to try and make yourself look more intelligent than your are by stating incorrect facts. You already tried to hand out advice on copperheads by stating 'A Copperhead will just generally sit there untill you start agrivating it'. Exactly how may have you worked with for you to justify handing out this advice? And you then went on to say that copperheads are not DWA.....
> 
> I know that many people are getting bored sensless by the 'arm-chair experts' that routinely hand out incorrect advice on this part of the forum. No wonder its going down the pan...


Ok.....No need to be rude. Thankyou.

We all make mistakes


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## Azemiops

First off, i would like to say how much i appreciate your PM calling me a 'complete and utter dick'. That just goes to show how immature you actually are, not a good start for a budding venomous keeper. You also mentioned that i made you look stupid. If you dont want to look stupid, dont give out rubbish and incorrect advice.
I do not feel the comments i made were unjustified. The amount of people that come on this section giving out advice when they have never seen a venomous snake is ridiculous, I would not go on to the lizard section spouting off incorrect information that i dont know anything about.


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## Malc

This thread worries me... I've been in the hobby of keeping reptiles for over 20 years and would never advise anyone who has had no experience in keeping snakes to jump in and start with a venomous collection, or even to keep some of the more aggressive non-venomous species.

Clearly by the posts the OP isn't really listening..., and to be honest, my gut feeling is that either he won't wait until he is 18 before getting something that he can show off to his friends, or if he does, will gets something that is really not what could be classed as an entry level venomous snake, but something that is highly dangerous - or god forbid, both !

For the record, I don't keep any venomous snakes. Whilst some of the most attractive snakes in the world are also the most deadly, I still wouldn't class myself as experienced enough to keep them. - Just my opinion


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## Jczreptiles

Azemiops said:


> First off, i would like to say how much i appreciate your PM calling me a 'complete and utter dick'. That just goes to show how immature you actually are, not a good start for a budding venomous keeper. You also mentioned that i made you look stupid. If you dont want to look stupid, dont give out rubbish and incorrect advice.
> I do not feel the comments i made were unjustified. *The amount of people that come on this section giving out advice when they have never seen a venomous snake is ridiculous, *I would not go on to the lizard section spouting off incorrect information that i dont know anything about.


 How exactly do know who has and has not seen a venomous snake to warrant saying that?


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## Azemiops

Jczreptiles said:


> How exactly do know who has and has not seen a venomous snake to warrant saying that?


Let me re-phrase that. The amount of people that come on this section giving out advice on dealing with venomous species that they have never worked with is ridiculous. It doesnt take a genious to work out who has and has not got experience with venomous....simple little things like telling people copperheads are easy going snakes is a dead give-away.....


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## Jczreptiles

Azemiops said:


> Let me re-phrase that. The amount of people that come on this section giving out advice on dealing with venomous species that they have never worked with is ridiculous. It doesnt take a genious to work out who has and has not got experience with venomous....simple little things like telling people copperheads are easy going snakes is a dead give-away.....


 Okay fair enough I was just wandering what made you presume that but yes you are right, I don't have a DWA or any DWA species but have worked a little in the past with DWA mainly assisting but occasionaly 'hook handling'. First off training with mangroves and false water cobras and then progressed with Western diamond back rattlesnakes, A monocled cobra, wagners viper and a saw scaled viper, But I really did not enjoy working with DWA and would never get one myself. Also you are totaly correct in saying that someone that has not owned a snake before should not own a mangrove let alone DWA and I would not have even advised that if i reallised that the OP did not own or has never owned a snake.


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## pythondave82

Viperlover - point me in the direction where you pulled the information on copperheads causing no deaths in the last 7 years – along with hardly any bites resulting in Crofab treatment.


Your first statement is correct, I’m not convinced about the second though – I know of several serious bites, costing the victim a serious amount of money and hospital food for several days. (I'm not sure on statistics, but will be back at a later date with that one!)

Oh… I’m not going into the whole ‘experienced handler’ discussion, but, I’d like to see you play with my copperheads – they want me to die from the minute they see me, till the minute they go to bed. They are evil!

Dave


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## Owzy

ViperLover said:


> Anybody know of any local breeders to me where I can purchase a Mangrove snake or a False Water Cobra??
> 
> And where I can get vivariums and snake handling equipment, and rodents


Have I got this right?

You ask for mentoring & say you are confident you will not be biten, but am I to presume you do not own any snakes at all from your question about where to get rodents? Something without any fangs might be the place to start.


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## ViperLover

pythondave82 said:


> Viperlover - point me in the direction where you pulled the information on copperheads causing no deaths in the last 7 years – along with hardly any bites resulting in Crofab treatment.
> 
> 
> Your first statement is correct, I’m not convinced about the second though – I know of several serious bites, costing the victim a serious amount of money and hospital food for several days. (I'm not sure on statistics, but will be back at a later date with that one!)
> 
> Oh… I’m not going into the whole ‘experienced handler’ discussion, but, I’d like to see you play with my copperheads – they want me to die from the minute they see me, till the minute they go to bed. They are evil!
> 
> Dave


Let me rephrase this.

I was referring to the Southern Copperhead...Bites are painful, and do a lot of damage. However, I have a friend in the States who is a Reptile expert and he says that through his experience, for SOUTHERN Copperhead bites, Most of the time Crofab isn't issued unless it's a serious matter.

Tom, I appologise for earlier as I stated in the personal message...

And to my research, and videos seen I made a conclusion they are accustomed to tolerate the presence of the keeper. I have never handled a Venomous snake, I'll be truthful on that one.

Whats the big up about Mangroves and Falsies?


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## Jczreptiles

ViperLover said:


> Let me rephrase this.
> 
> I was referring to the Southern Copperhead...Bites are painful, and do a lot of damage. However, I have a friend in the States who is a Reptile expert and he says that through his experience, for SOUTHERN Copperhead bites, Most of the time Crofab isn't issued unless it's a serious matter.
> 
> Tom, I appologise for earlier as I stated in the personal message...
> 
> And to my research, and videos seen I made a conclusion they are accustomed to tolerate the presence of the keeper. I have never handled a Venomous snake, I'll be truthful on that one.
> 
> Whats the big up about Mangroves and Falsies?


 They are not the most difficult snakes to keep, however not one recomended for beginers also the bites can still be very painfull and some people even have alergies to them im not sure how true this is but I have been told if you get bitten by a rear fanged snakes such as these two and do have an alergic reaction they can put you in hospital for a while.


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## Lamprophis

I find posts like this retarded... I only come on rfuk to listen to more useless debates, there is never anything constructive or anything that doesn't result in some sort of conflict (and no I'm not talking conflicting opinion - I'm talking egos), so can you imagine what use this forum and especially this "DWA" section would be to anyone potentially interested in this hobby?


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## gone fishin

i admit the only thing i know about keeping hots is what ive seen on the viperkeeper youtube channel and the best and most obvious advice he gives when asked this question is read read read, everything you can find on the subject before begining to look at buying snakes, its just common sense really.


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## ViperLover

gone fishin said:


> i admit the only thing i know about keeping hots is what ive seen on the viperkeeper youtube channel and the best and most obvious advice he gives when asked this question is read read read, everything you can find on the subject before begining to look at buying snakes, its just common sense really.


Al Coritz is a good friend of mine, and I have spoken to him about keeping Venomous and he says it's better listening to the locals on this forum site and to get a good understanding of posture before you establish a Hot collection.

Snakebite's aren't only expencive, but also inflict perminant internal damage to the body.

And whoever the guy was up there ^^ (Cant remember the ID) judging me, by saying I'd be irrisponsible and would just purchase a venomous reptile to "Show off" - Well you, sir are completely incorrect. I've been wanting to get into this Hobby ever since I was a child and was inspired by Herpetologists such as Steve Irwin, Bryan Fry, Jeff Corwin, Mark O'Shea and Austin J. Stevens.

Any snakebite has got to be painful, especially by the Heamotoxic kind. Anybody know (From experience) how the treatment is over here for Snakebite?


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## SWMorelia

Lamprophis said:


> I find posts like this retarded... I only come on rfuk to listen to more useless debates, there is never anything constructive or anything that doesn't result in some sort of conflict (and no I'm not talking conflicting opinion - I'm talking egos), so can you imagine what use this forum and especially this "DWA" section would be to anyone potentially interested in this hobby?


LMAO, still your old cuddly self.... LOL Hows it going, I haven't seen you around in a while.... Keep meaning to visit the new place.:no1:..
I gotto get over again... Soon....
See you around..:2thumb:


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## tengalms

ViperLover said:


> Yes a Boomslang is classed as a DWA, The Venom is just as toxic as most Elapids. And the Antivenin isn't 100% guaranteed to work.
> 
> And ohh really.....A Southern Copperhead being DWA....Thats highly suprising because no deaths have been reported in about 7 years, and its the most common snake to be tagged by in the United States. The majority of SC bites aren't even treated with Crofab, just a course of antibiotics.


I am glad i got the boomslang right about being DWA.It was only a guess !!!.

Tom,i deffo know now,why i dont get involved in these forum discussions.

Regards Roy.


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## ViperLover

tengalms said:


> I am glad i got the boomslang right about being DWA.It was only a guess !!!.
> 
> Tom,i deffo know now,why i dont get involved in these forum discussions.
> 
> Regards Roy.


 
Being a Colubrid, their venom delivery is poor. They would need to chew to envenmate. But that doesn't mean that they don't invenomate as soon as they bite.

Am I correct there Tom?


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## paulrimmer69

o dear, this just goes to prove my point on the other thread lol!


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## pythondave82

Watch this space :whip::mf_dribble:


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## Owzy

paulrimmer69 said:


> o dear, this just goes to prove my point on the other thread lol!


: victory: yup.


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## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> Anybody know of any local breeders to me where I can purchase a Mangrove snake


you would be better off listening to the dwa keepers on here,reading up on books and so on, than spending all your time trying to keep a mangrove alive and hydrated with B3,B6 and B12 vitamins and constant assit feeding


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## tengalms

paulrimmer69 said:


> o dear, this just goes to prove my point on the other thread lol!


 
Yep,with you on that one paul.

Roy.


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## Gaboon

About this time last year I was looking into getting a DWAL, after i5 years nearly constant reptile keeping I thought I was ready for a single _Bothriechis schlegelii. _What made me change my mind is getting tagged by my 6ft carpet completely out of the blue. Ive been tagged many many times but this was different as he took me by complete surprise as he is normally so docile. He went from his normal resting position to strike, bite and retraction in what must of been less than a second. If he was a _Bothriechis schlegelii _I may not be dead now but I would have been on my ass to say the least. I dont believe at the age of 16 (or 18 for that matter) anyone is capable of realising how real the threat of death is from one of these animals. There are plenty of beautiful and interesting harmless snakes avaliable to keep : victory:.

Just read and read and read and read.


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## Mark O'Shea

*Venomous Snake misconceptions: snakebites generally & boomslangs*

Keeping venomous snakes is a very serious issue in the UK. There are some very experienced and professional keepers, and some who are not quite as skilled or inclined to listen to advice from older or wiser persons.
I was directed to this thread by a concerned member of the forum and would like to make a few factual comments to dispell some myths.

Snakebite deaths in the UK.
In the entire 20thC there were only twelve deaths from adder bites and the last exotic snakebite fatality in the UK was even earlier, in 1897. It was a zoo death, the curator of reptiles at London Zoo arrived early for work, still under the influence from the night before, and thought it would be a good idea to kiss an Indian cobra. He died one hour after the zoo opened.
There has not been an exotic snakebite death in the UK, private or zoo, since then (although it has been close on several occasions) yet they happen with some regularity in the US. What do you imagine would happen in someone died of a rattler or cobra bite in the UK ?
A zoo death might not have a national effect but the death of a private keeper or innocent bystander would probably bring about a national ban on the keeping of venomous snakes, licensed or otherwise. So it is beholden upon the private venomous snake community to police itself, before someone else does it for you. If someone is doing something silly, and you value your collection, they pull them up short for your own benefit as much as there's.

Boomslang
The boomslang was considered potentially dangerous but whether or not it could kill a human was not confirmed until 1957 when Karl Patterson Schmidt, the eminent herpetologist at the Field Museum in Chicago, was tagged by a small specimen he was examining. He went home feeling unwell but called in to say he would be at work in a day or so. He never returned, it took three days but he died, probably of a brain haemorrhage since extensive internal bleeding is often the result of boomslang envenoming. At the time there was no boomslang antivenom so Schmidt was pretty much doomed from the onset.
There is antivenom now, in fact when I was in J'burg in 1997 I met the horse that they use for raising the monospecific boomslang antivenom, note I said "the horse", there was only one for boomslang (there may be more now). Someone on this thread said it was difficult for a boomslang to bite you. Not so, they have short wide mouths and their fangs are both large and positioned rather well forward for a rear-fanged snake (check out the image on p.15 of my Venomous Snakes of the World if you don't believe me). The venom is designed to deal with chameleons and weaver birds but unfortunately it also has a seriously deleterious effect on us. Bites are extremely serious, even from small specimens. Steve Spawls though he had been tagged when working in Botswana many years ago and immediately leapt into his Land Rover and drove over the border into S.Africa. Why? Because boomslang antivenom is in short supply, they are not easy to milk and antivenom is often only available in S.Africa. There may or may not be boomslang antivenom in the UK but my advice is take extreme care with these snakes as a death may be more likely following a bite, than from a cobra or a rattlesnake.
There are venomous snakes for which antivenom is either in short supply or does not yet exist (and may never) and a snakebite from one of these species, even with our advanced health care system, may not have a happy ending.

It is current medical opinion (and by that I mean the opinion of the most qualified medical snakebite experts) that the Aruba Island rattlesnake has a complex venom which may not be addressed by any crotaline antivenom currently available, not even the antivenom from Mexico, Costa Rica or Brazil intended for tropical rattlesnakes. Their advise is that this species not even be kept in zoos, with all their safety nets and facilities, let alone in private collections. I kept and bred this species in the 1990's but I would take this advice on board myself and think very very carefully about including this species in our collection at West Midland Safari Park, and then probably decide against it.

I am sure there are other aspects of this thread on which I could comment but that will do for now.

Regards, Mark O'Shea

Incidentally I rarely get involved in forums but when I do I generally avoid pseudonyms. If I have something to say about a subject I will say it with my voice and in my name.


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## Gaboon

Interesting stuff O' Shear! 

Would you say keeping them is more dangerous than going out and chasing them? I mean because they are essentially "cornered". By chasing I mean working with them in the wild.


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## Chuckwalla

ViperLover said:


> Ok.....No need to be rude. Thankyou.
> 
> We all make mistakes


Hiya buddy but do not take this the wrong way with a statement like "we all make mistakes" you really need to learn a lot about the venomous side of the "hobby" as if you make a mistake there you are going to be in a lot of trouble.

As the others have said, get your nose in some good books, and start with more aggressive snakes, mangroves, FWC, bulls you will learn a lot, and ther experianced guys on here with help you with your questions.
Immaturity is n age thing thats why you have to be adult prior to being issued with DWA.
Again mate don take it the worng way, just trying to help you out. The gusy on here know there stuff, so heed their advise when given.


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## reticmadness79

Chuckwalla said:


> Hiya buddy but do not take this the wrong way with a statement like "we all make mistakes" you really need to learn a lot about the venomous side of the "hobby" as if you make a mistake there you are going to be in a lot of trouble.
> 
> As the others have said, get your nose in some good books, and start with more aggressive snakes, mangroves, FWC, bulls you will learn a lot, and ther experianced guys on here with help you with your questions.
> Immaturity is n age thing thats why you have to be adult prior to being issued with DWA.
> Again mate don take it the worng way, just trying to help you out. The gusy on here know there stuff, so heed their advise when given.


Couldnt of said it better myself,i myself have handled many venomous snakes more the elapids,but did alot of research 1st for a few yrs,got hold of an evil false water and progressed from their,you need to make sure your prepared and understand what your dealing with before getting hands on


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## ViperLover

Mark O'Shea said:


> Keeping venomous snakes is a very serious issue in the UK. There are some very experienced and professional keepers, and some who are not quite as skilled or inclined to listen to advice from older or wiser persons.
> I was directed to this thread by a concerned member of the forum and would like to make a few factual comments to dispell some myths.
> 
> Snakebite deaths in the UK.
> In the entire 20thC there were only twelve deaths from adder bites and the last exotic snakebite fatality in the UK was even earlier, in 1897. It was a zoo death, the curator of reptiles at London Zoo arrived early for work, still under the influence from the night before, and thought it would be a good idea to kiss an Indian cobra. He died one hour after the zoo opened.
> There has not been an exotic snakebite death in the UK, private or zoo, since then (although it has been close on several occasions) yet they happen with some regularity in the US. What do you imagine would happen in someone died of a rattler or cobra bite in the UK ?
> A zoo death might not have a national effect but the death of a private keeper or innocent bystander would probably bring about a national ban on the keeping of venomous snakes, licensed or otherwise. So it is beholden upon the private venomous snake community to police itself, before someone else does it for you. If someone is doing something silly, and you value your collection, they pull them up short for your own benefit as much as there's.
> 
> Boomslang
> The boomslang was considered potentially dangerous but whether or not it could kill a human was not confirmed until 1957 when Karl Patterson Schmidt, the eminent herpetologist at the Field Museum in Chicago, was tagged by a small specimen he was examining. He went home feeling unwell but called in to say he would be at work in a day or so. He never returned, it took three days but he died, probably of a brain haemorrhage since extensive internal bleeding is often the result of boomslang envenoming. At the time there was no boomslang antivenom so Schmidt was pretty much doomed from the onset.
> There is antivenom now, in fact when I was in J'burg in 1997 I met the horse that they use for raising the monospecific boomslang antivenom, note I said "the horse", there was only one for boomslang (there may be more now). Someone on this thread said it was difficult for a boomslang to bite you. Not so, they have short wide mouths and their fangs are both large and positioned rather well forward for a rear-fanged snake (check out the image on p.15 of my Venomous Snakes of the World if you don't believe me). The venom is designed to deal with chameleons and weaver birds but unfortunately it also has a seriously deleterious effect on us. Bites are extremely serious, even from small specimens. Steve Spawls though he had been tagged when working in Botswana many years ago and immediately leapt into his Land Rover and drove over the border into S.Africa. Why? Because boomslang antivenom is in short supply, they are not easy to milk and antivenom is often only available in S.Africa. There may or may not be boomslang antivenom in the UK but my advice is take extreme care with these snakes as a death may be more likely following a bite, than from a cobra or a rattlesnake.
> There are venomous snakes for which antivenom is either in short supply or does not yet exist (and may never) and a snakebite from one of these species, even with our advanced health care system, may not have a happy ending.
> 
> It is current medical opinion (and by that I mean the opinion of the most qualified medical snakebite experts) that the Aruba Island rattlesnake has a complex venom which may not be addressed by any crotaline antivenom currently available, not even the antivenom from Mexico, Costa Rica or Brazil intended for tropical rattlesnakes. Their advise is that this species not even be kept in zoos, with all their safety nets and facilities, let alone in private collections. I kept and bred this species in the 1990's but I would take this advice on board myself and think very very carefully about including this species in our collection at West Midland Safari Park, and then probably decide against it.
> 
> I am sure there are other aspects of this thread on which I could comment but that will do for now.
> 
> Regards, Mark O'Shea
> 
> Incidentally I rarely get involved in forums but when I do I generally avoid pseudonyms. If I have something to say about a subject I will say it with my voice and in my name.


Thankyou very much Mr O'Shea...That information opened up a few port holes that needed to be opened.

I am very interested in keeping these venomous reptiles but I am looking for the experience before I establish my own collection.

Any chance I could get incontact with you in the near future to discuss this further? Thank you


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## naja

Hi guys 

this is my first time on the forum, some of you will recognise my username from another forum. Id just like to agree with what people are saying about doing as much research as poss before starting to keep hots. The problem is that some people are not always fortunate enough to be in the rite place at the rite time when it comes to finding a mentor. I was fortunate enough to work at a big zoo collection which had a big reptile collection with quit a few hots and a boss with 25yrs experiance in keeping them so was able to do my training there. But i do think that some of the people who want to start out in keeping hots come on here for advise or state a fact that they may feel they were told by a reliable source and get slated and taken down by the so called big guns. Who infact arent all that anyway. I have to say i agree with Mark o'shea about the boomslangs. I had a 7ft monster here at the shop once and at times could be a real handle. As for copperheads i have only kept 2 specimens as elapids are my main interest. They were two completely differant animals to handle, one would just bounce off the hook and be over the side of the tub in seconds where as the other is one of the most docile snakes i have ever kept. Just a few thoughts of mine anyway!


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## naja

Although i agree with starting to keep aggressive colubrids is a good way to start learning for venomous, its what i did myself but to me there is still always the thought in the back of your mind that it isnt actually venomous and its easy to get into a habit of cutting corners and getting into bad habits. Its easy to lack concentration which you cant afford to do when keeping these types of snakes. I think that when you are learning to keep venomous you start from scratch forgetting about keeping non-venomous and just listen to everything that the person who is showing you says. The bottom line is that things such as reading help alot but you wont start learning how to handle until you start handling yourself. 

This isnt a dig at anyone just simply some thoughts from my tiny little brain :lol2:


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## Malc

I was fortunate enough to be on the committee of what was one of the largest Herp Societies back in the early to mid '90s (MKHS). One of our committee members applied for and obtained a DWA license to keep 6 rattle snakes of various species. Now things might of changed over the years, and as some posters have mentioned each local authority have different views on what's acceptable and what's not, but here are some of the things he had to do before they granted the license.

The snakes had to be housed in a room of their own. In this case it was the small 3rd bedroom of his mid terrace house. The room had to be modified to include a double door entry, ie like an air-lock, where the first door is closed behind you before opening the second into the room. The window in the room had to be screwed shut and sealed with mastic. Mirrors had to be installed so that the banks of vivs could be seen at all times. Each viv had to be double glazed with locks on both sets of sliding glass doors. A fridge installed and anit-venom stored for each species. 3rd party liability insurance (which cost him a small fortune) purchased and the certificate displayed. Plain walls (the room was originally decorated with woodchip) - so he had to re-plaster the room. Sealed floor - the floor boards had to be sealed and ply sheet covered and sealed on top. This was then covered by lino and sealed around the walls. The cost of this was several thousand pounds, and that was before he got any snakes.

Now the OP might want to research the requirements of a DWA from his local authority. My guess is he is still living at home with his parents (being 16) and probably thinks it's OK to house a Boomslang or other venomous snake in a viv in the living room, much the same as you would a corn or milk snake. It also begs the question what his parents feel about him keeping such a potentially dangerous animal in the family home, or if they have the funds and space to undertake the same conversion as my friend did those years ago.

To the OP I would strongly urge you to reconsider getting into this. If you want to get into herps start off with non-venomous snakes, then when you've gained experience and want to keep venomous, start with something that has "mild" venom rather than something which could put you in hospital for days if you got tagged. You may find that if you can prove you have had two years experience keeping snakes, you might be in a better chance of being granted a DWA license, than if you have never kept snakes at all.


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## Mark O'Shea

*A thought on being bitten*

It is fairly common knowledge that I have been tagged a few times. Some bites have occurred in captivity, some have occurred in the field when photographing or milking venomous species. I am not ashamed of being bitten although I find it embarrassing because it happens when I have made a mistake. I would of course be ashamed if I were bitten doing something stupid. I personally hope never to be bitten again, it is not fun, its is not a "rite of passage", it can be very painful, it takes a week out of your life, and it could take a whole lot more.

Most people who work with venomous snakes for a long time, especially under less than optimum field conditions, can expect to be bitten. They don't set out to be bitten, they certainly don't want the t-shirt, but it is an ever present occupational hazard that one tries to keep to an absolute minimum. Joe Slowinski made a serious error when he put his hand into the snakebag in Burma, after his field colleague told him the snake inside was a Dinodon. He didn't check the ident first, just put his hand in and felt around. It wasn't a Dinodon, it was a many-banded krait and almost 30hrs later Joe paid for his mistake with his life. It is that easy!

Claims that "I don't think I would be bitten" are somewhat cocksure. That suggest the person concerned possesses some sort of sixth sense that is outside the experience of other keepers, some sort of mystical power handed down from the ancients. Surely that is not the case, and if it was it would surely come with age and experience, not adolescent enthusiasm.

One more thing about being bitten by a dangerous species. Forget everything you had planned for the next week because you no longer have any say in that, you are going to hospital.

I have to ask why a 16year old wants to keep venomous snakes. When I was sixteen I had been keeping snakes for eight years and was still completely fascinated by boas, pythons, ratsnakes, kingsnakes and the like. There were venomous snakes available, for relatively few quid (rattlers £2.50, common cobras £5, 8ft king cobras £32) but I knew my limits and living at home with my parents I did not think I had the right to (or any chance of) introducing such creatures into the family. 

I know things have moved on but there are still dozens of fascinating nonvenomous snakes to keep and breed, many more than there were when I was 16. I suspect this is an ego thing and nobody should look at venomous snakes as an ego extension. Personally I think a DWA license should not be available to persons under 21. I am sure some will disagree with that sentiment and so be it but someone else on this forum equated experience with maturity.

A final comment. "The most venomous snake is the one that just bit you."
I think this is Al Coritz's phrase but it really does not make sense.
My first venomous snakebite was a British adder, but biting me (in 1975, 3weeks after the last adder fatality in the UK) did not make it any more venomous than it was before it bit me. It is important not to confuse "most venomous" (which is a constant based on LD50) with "most dangerous" (which is a variable based on circumstances). It might be a truer statement to say "the most dangerous snake is the one you did not see" (all assuming it was venomous of course) but that is the problem with cliches, one size does not fit all.

Mark


----------



## Mark O'Shea

*Agreeing with Malc*

I thoroughly agree with Malc although possibly not that Milton Keynes Herpetological Society was one of the largest in the UK 
I agree with all the requirements as stated for the maintenance of venomous snakes under the DWAA, except one - the holding of antivenom my private persons.

The Dept of Health holds antivenom to cover snakebites by all venomous snakes kept or suspected to be kept in the UK by private and zoo collections (although zoos are expected to also maintain stocks of initial doses wherever possible). The suspected to be held is important since with 95% of venomous snakes in private hands being 'underground' if you like, it is not clear what is being kept and you are fortunate enough to hold the only pair of an especially rare species and then get bitten by one of them, you only have yourself to blame when it turns out there is no antivenom.
So I urge all keepers to send a list of their venomous species to the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine and if they have done so, and many did last year, keep that list updated. Lists can be sent anonymously and do not require your name, address, postcode or inside leg measurement, just a list of what species you keep and how many. 

Moving on, the DoH does not approve of private keepers keeping antivenom. This is a dangerous drug and it needs to be kept in a particular way and even more importantly, administered by a medically qualified person with the facilities to treat anaphylaxis. The idea that someone might inject his mate who just got bitten is too horrifying to contempt and could lead to manslaughter charges. Better to keep some self-injectable epipen in the fridge to give yourself the extra time if you begin to have problems before the ambulance arrives, or learn how to do an Aussie bandage for an elapid bite. Some antivenom is just too expensive for people to maintain, single vials of Crofab (rattlesnake), Bioclon (American pitvipers or African species), or CSL (taipan, blacksnake, polyvalent Australo-Papuan, death adder) may cost anything from £600 to £1,500 a vial, and you may need many more than ONE!
And it it goes past its expiry date most doctors won't use it.
So you would be buying an expensive drug with the intention of throwing it away.

No A/V at home please.

Mark


----------



## Malc

Mark O'Shea said:


> I thoroughly agree with Malc although possibly not that Milton Keynes Herpetological Society was one of the largest in the UK


LOL - well, possibly not the largest, but it was very popular and all the shows were well attended, at least whilst Barry and Pat were the key pin in the committee. - Ah fond memories of the post meeting drinks round Barry's after the meeting - those were the days!

Regarding the AV in private storage - I can't remember if it was simply to have AV on site with the intention of it being available to be administered by qualified paramedic / doctor in the event of a bite prior to being transported to A&E. - Like I said it was 14 - 15 years ago, and things may now of changed. I remember the chap (who's name escapes me now) saying that truth be know the LA were making it difficult for anyone in his area to get a license, so maybe they were being constructively awkward in his case.

I must admit that when we entered the room, with him (someone who was very experienced in keeping snakes for some years), I didn't feel comfortable knowing that there was always the potential of some accident awaiting to happen the moment I or anyone dropped their guard.


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## StevetheSnake

What an absolute honour to have someone like Mark O'Shea come on here and share his experiences with us, its just fantastic. 

To the OP, listen to what Mr O'Shea has said, he out of anyone else who has commented on this thread has the experience and know how to guide you in the right direction. You are looking toget into DWA snakes without actually owning a snake before, this is just crazy. if you have never experienced a snake (nevermind an angry snake) everything in your head is just a pipe dream. You would jump the height of yourself if a hatchling corn snapped at you, i can guarentee it, so even a mangrove or a FWC is way beyond your level of competentcy. If you are really interested, start off with a king snake/corn snake/ball python and get used to these and then gradually progress onto more demanding snakes (non venemous). After talking to a couple of DWA keepers near me they have said you need years of experience before even contemplating keeping venomous reptile, one said to me anyone keeping DWA less than 15 years after starting the hobby are totally mad. Slow and steady wins the race, working your way to something like this may take a long tme, but the experiences you will have during this time will not only be valuable for the future, but it will be amazingly enjoyable as well.


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## Lamprophis

SW-morelia said:


> LMAO, still your old cuddly self.... LOL Hows it going, I haven't seen you around in a while.... Keep meaning to visit the new place.:no1:..
> I gotto get over again... Soon....
> See you around..:2thumb:


Sorry, I think you may have me mixed up with another user  

Matt


----------



## ViperLover

Mark O'Shea said:


> It is fairly common knowledge that I have been tagged a few times. Some bites have occurred in captivity, some have occurred in the field when photographing or milking venomous species. I am not ashamed of being bitten although I find it embarrassing because it happens when I have made a mistake. I would of course be ashamed if I were bitten doing something stupid. I personally hope never to be bitten again, it is not fun, its is not a "rite of passage", it can be very painful, it takes a week out of your life, and it could take a whole lot more.
> 
> Most people who work with venomous snakes for a long time, especially under less than optimum field conditions, can expect to be bitten. They don't set out to be bitten, they certainly don't want the t-shirt, but it is an ever present occupational hazard that one tries to keep to an absolute minimum. Joe Slowinski made a serious error when he put his hand into the snakebag in Burma, after his field colleague told him the snake inside was a Dinodon. He didn't check the ident first, just put his hand in and felt around. It wasn't a Dinodon, it was a many-banded krait and almost 30hrs later Joe paid for his mistake with his life. It is that easy!
> 
> Claims that "I don't think I would be bitten" are somewhat cocksure. That suggest the person concerned possesses some sort of sixth sense that is outside the experience of other keepers, some sort of mystical power handed down from the ancients. Surely that is not the case, and if it was it would surely come with age and experience, not adolescent enthusiasm.
> 
> One more thing about being bitten by a dangerous species. Forget everything you had planned for the next week because you no longer have any say in that, you are going to hospital.
> 
> I have to ask why a 16year old wants to keep venomous snakes. When I was sixteen I had been keeping snakes for eight years and was still completely fascinated by boas, pythons, ratsnakes, kingsnakes and the like. There were venomous snakes available, for relatively few quid (rattlers £2.50, common cobras £5, 8ft king cobras £32) but I knew my limits and living at home with my parents I did not think I had the right to (or any chance of) introducing such creatures into the family.
> 
> I know things have moved on but there are still dozens of fascinating nonvenomous snakes to keep and breed, many more than there were when I was 16. I suspect this is an ego thing and nobody should look at venomous snakes as an ego extension. Personally I think a DWA license should not be available to persons under 21. I am sure some will disagree with that sentiment and so be it but someone else on this forum equated experience with maturity.
> 
> A final comment. "The most venomous snake is the one that just bit you."
> I think this is Al Coritz's phrase but it really does not make sense.
> My first venomous snakebite was a British adder, but biting me (in 1975, 3weeks after the last adder fatality in the UK) did not make it any more venomous than it was before it bit me. It is important not to confuse "most venomous" (which is a constant based on LD50) with "most dangerous" (which is a variable based on circumstances). It might be a truer statement to say "the most dangerous snake is the one you did not see" (all assuming it was venomous of course) but that is the problem with cliches, one size does not fit all.
> 
> Mark


 
Thankyou so much Mark....

The quote is what Al Coritz uses, but I adopted this after being tired of reading on, lets say "Less educated" forums then this about people saying "My snake's more venomous then you're snake" OR... "This animal is more venomous then this animal (LD50) so I will be more careful while working with this animal, then this animal"

I just simply laughed loudly and ignored their bickering

I understand the risks involved with keeping Venomous reptiles....and being still at home....I am not planning on introduceing highly venomous serpents into the home such as Boomslangs as I do have very young siblings....Not to mention it would be a selfish act on my part if anyone were to be tagged by an escapee. In my opinion, ALL Venomous animals deserve respect and I concider them ALL as dangerous. It doesn't take much to cause an Allergict Reaction.....And as you pointed out, 20+ Vials of Goat Serum, with excruciating pain and a possible amputation is in no means fun to say the least. And that's if you survive the bite in the first place.

I have ALWAYS had a passion for reptiles....especially venomous. Non venomous doesn't interest me, but for the sake of myself I will need to get rid of the arrogence and LEARN to care for the animal. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a poorly cared for animal can result in a pissed off one......Resulting in all-sorts of incidents

I have also been thinking about studying to become a Herpetologist specialising in Venomous reptiles and Crocodillians.....This will also help me learn, I am trying to establish a vuluntry job working in the herp section of the local Zoo to gain experience. I spoke to a friend of mine, Chris Law and he said....being a reptile specialist that it would be a tremendous idea and will really help boost confidence and abilities when working with professional Zoo handlers and staff.


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## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> Thankyou so much Mark....
> 
> The quote is what Al Coritz uses, but I adopted this after being tired of reading on, lets say "Less educated" forums then this about people saying "My snake's more venomous then you're snake" OR... "This animal is more venomous then this animal (LD50) so I will be more careful while working with this animal, then this animal"
> 
> I just simply laughed loudly and ignored their bickering
> 
> I understand the risks involved with keeping Venomous reptiles....and being still at home....I am not planning on introduceing highly venomous serpents into the home such as Boomslangs as I do have very young siblings....Not to mention it would be a selfish act on my part if anyone were to be tagged by an escapee. In my opinion, ALL Venomous animals deserve respect and I concider them ALL as dangerous. It doesn't take much to cause an Allergict Reaction.....And as you pointed out, 20+ Vials of Goat Serum, with excruciating pain and a possible amputation is in no means fun to say the least. And that's if you survive the bite in the first place.
> 
> *I have ALWAYS had a passion for reptiles....especially venomous. Non venomous doesn't interest me,* but for the sake of myself I will need to get rid of the arrogence and LEARN to care for the animal. *It doesn't take a genius to work out that a poorly cared for animal can result in a pissed off one......Resulting in all-sorts of incidents*
> 
> I have also been thinking about studying to become a Herpetologist specialising in Venomous reptiles and Crocodillians.....This will also help me learn, I am trying to establish a vuluntry job working in the herp section of the local Zoo to gain experience. I spoke to a friend of mine, Chris Law and he said....being a reptile specialist that it would be a tremendous idea and will really help boost confidence and abilities when working with professional Zoo handlers and staff.


Wouldn't it be a good idea to get a snake like a corn or a milk and learn how to keep that alive first...You haven't got any experience with any snakes from what I can see yet you think a venomous would be a good starting point....
Can I also say, you asked for a mentor.... You have to listen to what your being told for mentoring to work.....
Your being told to get a non venomous and work your way up over numerous years, yet you don't seem to be listening....


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## Mark O'Shea

*A passion for reptiles*

Dear Viper Lover,
May I quote from your last response (SE-morelia spotted the same remark and highlighted it so I think he is on the same track as me)

Your wrote: "I have ALWAYS had a passion for reptiles....especially venomous. Non venomous doesn't interest me,"

What a statement!
You have always had a passion for reptiles but by stating "especially venomous", you suggest some other reptiles interest you too, but then you go on to say nonvenomous snakes don't interest you. So what are the other reptiles that interest you I wonder. Reading on it seems to be crocodiles.
This confirmed my fear that you are only interested in the species that can do you some damage, that your interest is not a genuine interest in reptiles in general. There are nonvenomous snakes just as fascinating, as difficult to breed, as brightly coloured, and bitey, and as rewarding, as any venomous snakes, but they don't interest you. Why not ?
Probably because they cannot kill you. That is clearly what draws you to venomous snakes.

Now I think any person who keeps or works with venomous snakes will have to agree that the adrenaline is part of the attraction, but only part, if it become the whole reason for keeping these snakes you may start trying to push the envelope, and ultimately that only leads to one thing.

Stop, think, ask yourself honestly, why are you so keen to get into venomous snakes, and if your answer is as I suspect, that is the wrong reason entirely. Keeping venomous snakes may for some be the natural progression after years of keeping nonvenomous snakes. As the friend of StevetheSnake stated, 15 years experience with nonvenomous is a good period. I know at the tender age of 16, that time span feels like an eternity but you do not even want to consider a shorter span, say 5-10 years, of experience with nonvenomous snakes.

Whatever the case you have to wait until you are 18 as stipulated by the DWAA but you should really wait until you have your own premises so you can do all construction of air-lock doors, internal phones, work surfaces and easy access but escape-proof cages, all the things necessary to make a secure snake room that will pass inspection. This is not cheap, the cheapest part are the snakes themselves. I am certain pocket money or even a weekend job will not finance the keeping of venomous snakes with all the additional costs, especially the insurance.

You said there were younger siblings in the house. I think it should be noted that although private venomous snake keepers are bitten by their charges every single year in the UK, so far it has only been the keepers themselves who have been bitten. I know of no instance where a member of the family, visitor to the household or neighbour has been bitten. If there are youngsters in a household, with enquiring minds and fingers, then even more security is required to prevent a tragic accident, a forbidden door left ajar is a child magnet, and those bright green curly things on that branch look so cuddly!

You really should shed the idea of keeping venomous snakes for quite a few years yet. Fine, get a voluntary job in a zoo but do not expect to be allowed to handle the venomous snakes in that collection. We have very strict protocols in our collection. Keepers are trained to "venomous assist" and that takes quite a while, then they train for "full venomous" and that takes even longer. Our dangerous snakes are categorised A-D based on how difficult they are to work with and keepers work their way up the scale to A, which is king cobra, Papuan taipan and would include black mamba if we kept them. No volunteers are allowed near the venomous snakes, not even into the hot room when venomous husbandry is being carried out (although they can watch through a window). Even fulltime staff, who are not venomous trained, are not allowed in. There is a sign over the outer door that is illuminated when such husbandry is taking place and persons are instructed to knock and wait, not even enter if they hold a key. I would imagine other collections in the UK have similarly strict protocols although I know collections overseas are less rigid about who is allowed around venomous snakes and no such rules govern private collections.

I wondered about the goat serum. Where did that come from ?
Most snakebite antivenom is raised on horses but in light of the unpleasant reactions (including blindness) that can be suffered by contact with equine-serums, some antivenoms are being raised on sheep, and funnel-back antivenom in Australia was raised on rabbits (at last, a use for flopsy, mopsy and cottontail has been found) but I was not aware of any goat serum. Are you sure you are not confusing antivenom with some sort of occult hallowe'en potion !

Good luck with your application for voluntary work, but one piece of advice there. Ask your mentors thought out questions and accept their answers as fact, they will be speaking from experience.

Mark


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## exoticsadmirer

as a teenager of 17 years i would adore getting a venomous snake but i made a mental checlkist of snakes to get first( and to get out the parents house) i meana my next snake i plan to get is reknown to get a bit nippy but when i can care and handle that snake i will move onto something like a false water cobra or something of equal value. and the slowly intergrate myself with DWA animals. i estimate i'll be at least 27 before i get one of these animals. and i might be going to west midlands safari parks reptile department at some point to have a look at their lovely snakes and other reptiles.


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## ralphee

I think it best Viperlover heeds the sense that the "pro's" here preach, years of research, respect, and common sense here, is abound, even more so from Mr O' Shea and the other hot handlers.
I pray, you dont follow up this "fad" right now, at least, not for a good few years (maybe 10 or more) of keeping non venomous reptiles, that CAN still be unpredictable, even the soppiest of my Boa's have had a wobble now and then, but ya know what, its called "experience" and that, comes from getting years of it, under your belt.

Ive seen Cobra's in Thailand (snake farms, enough to make you puke as a snake lover, but hey, i guess they have to earn a living) that made me want to take them all home, but, these are VERY socially aware animals, they DO permanent damage to a human on envenomation. One just has to watch them figure things out, to realise the respect they command, at every minute, of every day!

In my very late teens, i was offered a White Lipped Viper, and i have to admit, this was a very tempting offer with me young, dumb and fulla.....ahem, anyhoo, my peers, made me see sense, and realise, its not a bragging right, its a VERY large responsibility on soooo many levels.
Id have been breaking the law, and, putting my still lack of experience (even after 10 years of keeping Herps) at major peril. LISTEN TO THE GUYS ON HERE Viperlover, they know there onions!

A Boiga, will knock you flat on your butt too, these are very snappy, very unpredictable reptiles, that do require, quite a bit of maintenance, that maintenance, to a novice snake keeper, will result in multiple tags IMO, these things rock, but they are NOT a "pose" pet, do some reading on the Brown's in Guam!!!!!

Id say, if you truly love reptiles, you would be super proud, to own a Boa or Python, maybe a Carpet if you want a bit of attitude (gotta love 'em lol) that you can gain valuable experience with, hey, there are plenty of Elaphe out there too that would be super happy to rip you up some (if thats your bag) but then i guess, the true keeper, doesnt get tagged at all, so im a failure on that count :lol2:

lee


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## ViperLover

Mark O'Shea said:


> Dear Viper Lover,
> May I quote from your last response (SE-morelia spotted the same remark and highlighted it so I think he is on the same track as me)
> 
> Your wrote: "I have ALWAYS had a passion for reptiles....especially venomous. Non venomous doesn't interest me,"
> 
> What a statement!
> You have always had a passion for reptiles but by stating "especially venomous", you suggest some other reptiles interest you too, but then you go on to say nonvenomous snakes don't interest you. So what are the other reptiles that interest you I wonder. Reading on it seems to be crocodiles.
> This confirmed my fear that you are only interested in the species that can do you some damage, that your interest is not a genuine interest in reptiles in general. There are nonvenomous snakes just as fascinating, as difficult to breed, as brightly coloured, and bitey, and as rewarding, as any venomous snakes, but they don't interest you. Why not ?
> Probably because they cannot kill you. That is clearly what draws you to venomous snakes.
> 
> Now I think any person who keeps or works with venomous snakes will have to agree that the adrenaline is part of the attraction, but only part, if it become the whole reason for keeping these snakes you may start trying to push the envelope, and ultimately that only leads to one thing.
> 
> Stop, think, ask yourself honestly, why are you so keen to get into venomous snakes, and if your answer is as I suspect, that is the wrong reason entirely. Keeping venomous snakes may for some be the natural progression after years of keeping nonvenomous snakes. As the friend of StevetheSnake stated, 15 years experience with nonvenomous is a good period. I know at the tender age of 16, that time span feels like an eternity but you do not even want to consider a shorter span, say 5-10 years, of experience with nonvenomous snakes.
> 
> Whatever the case you have to wait until you are 18 as stipulated by the DWAA but you should really wait until you have your own premises so you can do all construction of air-lock doors, internal phones, work surfaces and easy access but escape-proof cages, all the things necessary to make a secure snake room that will pass inspection. This is not cheap, the cheapest part are the snakes themselves. I am certain pocket money or even a weekend job will not finance the keeping of venomous snakes with all the additional costs, especially the insurance.
> 
> You said there were younger siblings in the house. I think it should be noted that although private venomous snake keepers are bitten by their charges every single year in the UK, so far it has only been the keepers themselves who have been bitten. I know of no instance where a member of the family, visitor to the household or neighbour has been bitten. If there are youngsters in a household, with enquiring minds and fingers, then even more security is required to prevent a tragic accident, a forbidden door left ajar is a child magnet, and those bright green curly things on that branch look so cuddly!
> 
> You really should shed the idea of keeping venomous snakes for quite a few years yet. Fine, get a voluntary job in a zoo but do not expect to be allowed to handle the venomous snakes in that collection. We have very strict protocols in our collection. Keepers are trained to "venomous assist" and that takes quite a while, then they train for "full venomous" and that takes even longer. Our dangerous snakes are categorised A-D based on how difficult they are to work with and keepers work their way up the scale to A, which is king cobra, Papuan taipan and would include black mamba if we kept them. No volunteers are allowed near the venomous snakes, not even into the hot room when venomous husbandry is being carried out (although they can watch through a window). Even fulltime staff, who are not venomous trained, are not allowed in. There is a sign over the outer door that is illuminated when such husbandry is taking place and persons are instructed to knock and wait, not even enter if they hold a key. I would imagine other collections in the UK have similarly strict protocols although I know collections overseas are less rigid about who is allowed around venomous snakes and no such rules govern private collections.
> 
> I wondered about the goat serum. Where did that come from ?
> Most snakebite antivenom is raised on horses but in light of the unpleasant reactions (including blindness) that can be suffered by contact with equine-serums, some antivenoms are being raised on sheep, and funnel-back antivenom in Australia was raised on rabbits (at last, a use for flopsy, mopsy and cottontail has been found) but I was not aware of any goat serum. Are you sure you are not confusing antivenom with some sort of occult hallowe'en potion !
> 
> Good luck with your application for voluntary work, but one piece of advice there. Ask your mentors thought out questions and accept their answers as fact, they will be speaking from experience.
> 
> Mark


 
I have been thinking about ytou're post, Mark. I will rephrase what I said...I do love ALL reptiles....But my main interests of research are Venomous and Crocodillians as I have much interest on Venom compounds and toxins....(I have ALLWAYS been a Science Geek)...

Introduceing a venomous species to my care would be a deffinate NO-GO for quite some time after reading closely what you'reself and the other keepers have posted. I have ALWAYS wanted a Reptile but my family were not willing to trust me untill now. I have always loved snakes in general and I have no desire for Adrenaline. I really need to start learning now about reptillians and to start working with the more docile species of animals of I EVER want to suceed in Herpetology. Venomous training will come much later and for that instance I am going to try and purchase something like a Corn snake or a Black Kingsnake and then move to the small constricters after a year or two of non-venomous experience.


----------



## jasonkwong135

ViperLover said:


> I have been thinking about ytou're post, Mark. I will rephrase what I said...I do love ALL reptiles....But my main interests of research are Venomous and Crocodillians *as I have much interest on Venom compounds and toxins*....(I have ALLWAYS been a Science Geek)...


Mark

It is a great honour to read the comment on such a great figure in the field (I have got Venomous Snakes of the World in my herp book collection:flrt. I admitt when I first got into snakes I have a crush on venomous myself as well, but that quickly subsided as I read all about the requirment for keeping them and the real danger that I will be facing.

Viperlover

If its is venom and toxin that you are interested in, keepinng a venomous snake is not nesscessary the way to go. what you want is chemistry and biology. You dont need to know how to handle a snake if you are studying snake venom, in fact most researcher using snake venom might not even see a snake before. all I m saying is, is the chemistry of the various proteins in the snake venom that you are interestering in, their structures, mechanism of functions that you should be interested in. and you can achieve these just by reading a lot. I m not against you of keeping a hot snake, as I said above I love hot snake as well but I love myself more :whistling2:. 

good luck

Jason


----------



## ViperLover

jasonkwong135 said:


> Mark
> 
> It is a great honour to read the comment on such a great figure in the field (I have got Venomous Snakes of the World in my herp book collection:flrt. I admitt when I first got into snakes I have a crush on venomous myself as well, but that quickly subsided as I read all about the requirment for keeping them and the real danger that I will be facing.
> 
> Viperlover
> 
> If its is venom and toxin that you are interested in, keepinng a venomous snake is not nesscessary the way to go. what you want is chemistry and biology. You dont need to know how to handle a snake if you are studying snake venom, in fact most researcher using snake venom might not even see a snake before. all I m saying is, is the chemistry of the various proteins in the snake venom that you are interestering in, their structures, mechanism of functions that you should be interested in. and you can achieve these just by reading a lot. I m not against you of keeping a hot snake, as I said above I love hot snake as well but I love myself more :whistling2:.
> 
> good luck
> 
> Jason


Thankyou, Jason 

But I like Venomous snakes aswell....and the science of Herpetology as I stated I want to establish my own collection in the far future.

I am not in this for an Adrenaline buzz...But to establish a professional and specialist hobby working with animals I enjoy researching. And possibly a career in Herpetology.


----------



## Gaboon

All good things come to those that wait, and study hard. :2thumb:


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## pymn nice but dim

Im sorry viperlover i dont mean to seem negative but have you put much or any thought into this, if you have never kept snakes nor had hands on experiance WHAT ON EARTH are you doing trying to start a venomous collection it would appear through out this thread you are digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.

i have very limited experiance with venomous (ive as much as seen them on the safe side of a viv)

i work with reptiles and have many friends who breed and keep extensive collections, and all of which say they wouldnt be prepared or ready to go through with keeping hot snakes.

you may as well say iv never boxed but im prepared to step in the ring with ali.

i dont mean to rant but please now that you have been told by the people who do keep hot and the likes of Mark O' shea telling just do your research, please....

just stop.
think.

and wait, in time you may well wish to consider it but right now your 16, you have no real experiance by your self a corn or royal learn about a snake then try a more aggressive species, but you have to understand there is no GOOD or STARTER species with venomous its life or death, your 16 i myself am only 18 and i know how recless and egotistical i can be.

its not a badge of honour to keep dwa it is a complete life style, and it can also be your death style.

i wish you the best of luck just slow down and be sensible.


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## leecb0

I held my first snake at 6 a grass snake i found near my home in kent i owned my first snake at 9 i garter snake (it was 1979) i moved up the ladder going fromcorns to ball pythons to rock pythons bloods etc then got into some hard to keep and rareish Sp i always loved venomous but never thought about actually keeping. I have been nailed by a lot of snakes and a few monitors but one thing i have always said to people is if you thing you are going to keep snakes and NEVER get bit then you are mistaken, anyway i first held my DWAL when i was 28 after nearly 20 years and handling hundreds of snakes including rear fang and i had some help from Mr J Foden. 
In my opinion i think you are after the kudos of keeping such animals. I am a private collector and my collection whic includes many non venomous snakes like proberbly most DWAL holders is private i dont post what i have on forums and only a very select few people know what i keep its not a badge of honour or a rite of passage (unless the passage is to the next life) i have never been bitten by any of my collection due to strict protocols i employ but every day the risk is there. your comment on copperheads made me chuckle my copperhead is a real sod wont stay on the hook very unpradictable allways looks as if he wants to tag me.
Now i know you dont know who i or some of the hot keepers are on here who have tried to give you advice but Mark you do know of and his experience LISTEN TO HIM and dont try to BS people


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## ViperLover

leecb0 said:


> I held my first snake at 6 a grass snake i found near my home in kent i owned my first snake at 9 i garter snake (it was 1979) i moved up the ladder going fromcorns to ball pythons to rock pythons bloods etc then got into some hard to keep and rareish Sp i always loved venomous but never thought about actually keeping. I have been nailed by a lot of snakes and a few monitors but one thing i have always said to people is if you thing you are going to keep snakes and NEVER get bit then you are mistaken, anyway i first held my DWAL when i was 28 after nearly 20 years and handling hundreds of snakes including rear fang and i had some help from Mr J Foden.
> In my opinion i think you are after the kudos of keeping such animals. I am a private collector and my collection whic includes many non venomous snakes like proberbly most DWAL holders is private i dont post what i have on forums and only a very select few people know what i keep its not a badge of honour or a rite of passage (unless the passage is to the next life) i have never been bitten by any of my collection due to strict protocols i employ but every day the risk is there. your comment on copperheads made me chuckle my copperhead is a real sod wont stay on the hook very unpradictable allways looks as if he wants to tag me.
> Now i know you dont know who i or some of the hot keepers are on here who have tried to give you advice but Mark you do know of and his experience LISTEN TO HIM and dont try to BS people


Thankyou for the advise guys....

I am thinking about starting at the bottom and working my way up. It just seems so long though


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## hexem

All things in life are worth waiting for :lol2:
Just remember, the patience you learn from it will make you a much better keeper when it comes to venemous, and you will get respect for that, not in keeping the snakes themselves.


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## SiUK

My copperhead is nuts, it sits on a hook ok, but strikes at anything that moves, it bites hooks and itself in its haste to try and get me, I wouldnt say its unpredictable because I can always predict that the second it sees me it wants to hurt me:lol2:


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## Jczreptiles

It may seem like a long way of doing it but you have to wait 2 years either way, So would you rather spend two years just reading about snakes or spend 2 years getting hand on experience?


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## Jabba the mentor

Well if we had the internet when I was 16 venomous snake would be the last thing I would be looking at


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## slippery42

Jabba the mentor said:


> Well if we had the internet when I was 16 venomous snake would be the last thing I would be looking at


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## greenvenom

Jabba the mentor said:


> Well if we had the internet when I was 16 venomous snake would be the last thing I would be looking at


I bet venomous snakes are still the last thing you look at :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## SWMorelia

Mark O'Shea said:


> Dear Viper Lover,
> May I quote from your last response (SE-morelia spotted the same remark and highlighted it so I think he is on the same track as me)
> 
> Your wrote: "I have ALWAYS had a passion for reptiles....especially venomous. Non venomous doesn't interest me,"
> 
> 
> Mark


This has to be a Red letter day for me.....:no1:
Mark O'Shea quotes me because I had insight.:notworthy:
(Even if he did get my name wrong:whistling2
That has got to become my sig quote......:2thumb:
And yes Mark that was the point I was making.....
Venomous or not, they should all be of interest..


ViperLover said:


> Thankyou for the advise guys....
> 
> I am thinking about starting at the bottom and working my way up. *It just seems so long though*


Perhaps my back ground may help you or inspire you, or it may make you see things from a different perspective...
I to wanted venomous (I hate the term HOT, it's too American... LOL)
as a teenager. I wanted a Cobra or a Rattler, the two most easily recognisable venomous. I was also advised to learn how snakes tick, so to speak, and get some experience with a snake before jumping in. I got a Cornsnake and set it up and learned as much as I could about them. Next I got a Boa, set it up and done the same thing.... I read everything I could find... I then got an Anaconda and then a Retic then a Burm then a milk and so I went on, buying and learning, meeting people and reading...
Eventually I decided that the time was right to find a mentor and start my DWA training.... Being in the hobby I already knew people who had venomous so it wasn't too difficult to find someone to teach me....
Luckily the guy that took me under his wing also had mates that were well into DWAL animals.... I ended up learning off three people.... One went to uni with you Mark and is a mate of yours I think, Peter Heathcote, he's probably one of the leading exponents in Crocs and their Species... Even though Crocs aren't my thing it was an interesting day and I learned a lot...
Anyway long story short I've now been into snakes for over 35 yrs and my venomous room has no venomous snakes in it....
I realised that I found Morelia far more interesting to keep breed and show off to people....
What I am trying to say is, until you get a snake and make a start you can't say what interests you. ATM the notion of venomous is an ideal to you and ideals never live up to expectations in real life... You, like me, may find another species that floats your boat...
And the other point I am making is, until you enter the hobby you won't get to meet the people you need to mentor you...
After all would you invite a stranger into your house to share with you....
Best of luck with your quest and if you want a nice snake to start you off, get a Carpet.... Husbandry isn't demanding for a newb and it will bite you when it's young..... LOL
And I know a guy that sells them:whistling2:
Regards 
MIKE


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## leecb0

PMSL:roll2::roll2::roll2:


----------



## jasper1

There is some sound advice on here, take heed and learn from others' experience. As it's been said by many, until you actually start in the hobby you don't actually know what you like; you only think you do.

When I was a kid, I just wanted a snake...any snake. Then one day, walking past the local pet shop, I saw that he had some red-sided garters in. They fascinated me, seeing any snake in a shop in those days was quite a rarity, at least where I lived anyway. After a week or so of going in and watching them and pestering the shop owner with a million questions, I eventually bought one. I was about 14 at the time, I still remember walking (struggling) home with the snake, viv (fish tank), and substrate, etc and realising what I had done. 

My Dad was going to kill me; I could feel his wrath with each step I took nearer home. Luckily he wasn't in when I got home, so I set everything up and watched my new snake for ages. Then my Dad came through the door.... He was just as fascinated as me, came as quite a surprise. He helped (well he did it on his own, I got in the way) make a secure lid for the fish tank and we wired a household central heating thermostat to the bulb. Everything was make do in those days; you kids don't know how easy you have it hehehehe.

I was like the proverbial pig in sh*t, I had my snake and everyday was a learning experience just observing his daily routine of basking, foraging for food, etc. The first time I saw him slough I was in awe. In those days there was no internet, I bought every book there was and read everything I could on my new found hobby. 

I tracked down the local herp club and expanded my knowledge further from their advice/experience. A few had venomous and I thought maybe that's the direction I wanted to take. 

The next purchase, a year or so after getting my garter, was a burm. This time I just came home with the snake, expecting the worst from my Dad. So irresponsible of me, but I was a kid..not even 16 yet. But again, my Dad was fantastic, he made a purpose built viv. However, he did say that that was my last purchase unless he agreed otherwise.

All the while, I was still reading, meeting with fellow herpers, going to shows, learning all I could.

I eventually got my own place and then the bug hit big time. Buying more and more. I had all sorts, used to go to the local shop and check out the lists and get him to order anything and everything. The dining room was converted into a rep room and there were vivs filling every wall and surface. But one day, I decided that the only things that really excited me were arboreal snakes, along with the Ig and the burm. So everything went apart from those. 

The burm was a nice size now, and so was the Ig. I also had a pair of mangroves, a paradise snake (Chrysopelea paradisi) and long nosed tree snakes (Aheatulla prasina) and the garter (had to keep my first snake), plus a couple of red-sided sliders. 

Eventually times change and I joined the RAF and sadly I had to reduce my collection, sad times. My little sister was also now into the hobby due to me. So she had the burm (with my Dad's blessing) and the garter, my Dad had the sliders and the rest went to new homes.

I was then posted to Cyprus and soon met a great man who taught me many things. He kept his own reptile farm and at first I used to just go and watch but eventually we became great friends. He must have thought me an oddity at first as I would spend ages in there, observing and asking questions, etc.

He eventually, let me help with the daily maintenance/feeding and I felt so privileged. That guy taught me a lot. But I always had an uneasy feeling when he was teaching me handling techniques of the venomous. Realised it probably wasn't for me. He kept the lot in there; mainly big pythons/boids to venomous, from the local stuff to gaboons, rattlers, cobras, Igs and caiman, etc. Even various primates. 

One day he even took me to the local zoo, where the keeper handed him the keys to the leopard enclosure. In we went and the next thing the leopard came over and was rolling around like a puppy. He used to keep it at his home but eventually donated it to the zoo. We also went behind the scenes to the see the lion cubs. Was a fascinating day, as every day was with him. The most frightening part was being on the back of his motorbike, with no helmet on, whilst he whizzed in between the traffic...

I was getting itchy again. I needed my own snake. I used to go on field trips, catching black whips (Coluber jugularis), the Cypriot whip (Coluber cypriensis), Montpellier (Malpolon monspessulanus) and the blunt nosed viper (Vipera lebetina). I never saw the other species of Cypriot snakes, except in my friend's collection. I used to keep them for a while then release them where I found them. Of the many vipers I owned, I was always ill at ease when having to capture, handle, etc. That's is when I realised venomous wasn't for me. 

When I was posted back to the UK I bought an Ig, had him for 15 years until he sadly passed away. He was such a character and puppy soft.

I go back to Cyprus quite regularly, although I haven't been for a couple of years. Last time I went, as usual, one of the first things I do is scoot round to my friends place. However, this time it was closed down. So off I went to his house. 

This is where I found out that the year previously he was tagged by a King. He was distracted and it caught him on his thumb. Was in hospital for some time, "died" three times and was in a coma for a few days. He made a complete recovery (almost), he's lost the top part of his thumb but also feels out of breath all the time. This is from a man who has kept all sorts over the years and really knows his stuff. He's confident in handling and very knowledgeable.

Now, I still keep arboreal, it's what floats my boat. Mangroves, Cyanea, Aheatulla & Chrysopelea & Rough greens. I would like to get a Burm again one day and maybe an Ig as I've still got a soft spot for those. I have also got into frogs; White's, Red-eyed and Darts.

So the point of this long drawn out drivel is: whatever you may think you like, might not be the case. Keeping venomous isn't the next step on the snake keeping ladder. Some people go a lifetime without moving into that arena. I tried it, wasn't for me. There are so many fascinating species out there, without even having to contemplate venomous.

However, take the next few years getting to know husbandry, handling techniques, etc and learn as much as you can before even thinking about moving on to venomous. Be prepared & be careful.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.


----------



## tigersnake

A very interesting story jasper1, and some very good advice. If there were more of these posts, I am sure more people would contribute to this site.
Thanks again for an interesting story, and such good advice for a novice keeper.
Cheers,
Brian.


----------



## ViperLover

jasper1 said:


> There is some sound advice on here, take heed and learn from others' experience. As it's been said by many, until you actually start in the hobby you don't actually know what you like; you only think you do.
> 
> When I was a kid, I just wanted a snake...any snake. Then one day, walking past the local pet shop, I saw that he had some red-sided garters in. They fascinated me, seeing any snake in a shop in those days was quite a rarity, at least where I lived anyway. After a week or so of going in and watching them and pestering the shop owner with a million questions, I eventually bought one. I was about 14 at the time, I still remember walking (struggling) home with the snake, viv (fish tank), and substrate, etc and realising what I had done.
> 
> My Dad was going to kill me; I could feel his wrath with each step I took nearer home. Luckily he wasn't in when I got home, so I set everything up and watched my new snake for ages. Then my Dad came through the door.... He was just as fascinated as me, came as quite a surprise. He helped (well he did it on his own, I got in the way) make a secure lid for the fish tank and we wired a household central heating thermostat to the bulb. Everything was make do in those days; you kids don't know how easy you have it hehehehe.
> 
> I was like the proverbial pig in sh*t, I had my snake and everyday was a learning experience just observing his daily routine of basking, foraging for food, etc. The first time I saw him slough I was in awe. In those days there was no internet, I bought every book there was and read everything I could on my new found hobby.
> 
> I tracked down the local herp club and expanded my knowledge further from their advice/experience. A few had venomous and I thought maybe that's the direction I wanted to take.
> 
> The next purchase, a year or so after getting my garter, was a burm. This time I just came home with the snake, expecting the worst from my Dad. So irresponsible of me, but I was a kid..not even 16 yet. But again, my Dad was fantastic, he made a purpose built viv. However, he did say that that was my last purchase unless he agreed otherwise.
> 
> All the while, I was still reading, meeting with fellow herpers, going to shows, learning all I could.
> 
> I eventually got my own place and then the bug hit big time. Buying more and more. I had all sorts, used to go to the local shop and check out the lists and get him to order anything and everything. The dining room was converted into a rep room and there were vivs filling every wall and surface. But one day, I decided that the only things that really excited me were arboreal snakes, along with the Ig and the burm. So everything went apart from those.
> 
> The burm was a nice size now, and so was the Ig. I also had a pair of mangroves, a paradise snake (Chrysopelea paradisi) and long nosed tree snakes (Aheatulla prasina) and the garter (had to keep my first snake), plus a couple of red-sided sliders.
> 
> Eventually times change and I joined the RAF and sadly I had to reduce my collection, sad times. My little sister was also now into the hobby due to me. So she had the burm (with my Dad's blessing) and the garter, my Dad had the sliders and the rest went to new homes.
> 
> I was then posted to Cyprus and soon met a great man who taught me many things. He kept his own reptile farm and at first I used to just go and watch but eventually we became great friends. He must have thought me an oddity at first as I would spend ages in there, observing and asking questions, etc.
> 
> He eventually, let me help with the daily maintenance/feeding and I felt so privileged. That guy taught me a lot. But I always had an uneasy feeling when he was teaching me handling techniques of the venomous. Realised it probably wasn't for me. He kept the lot in there; mainly big pythons/boids to venomous, from the local stuff to gaboons, rattlers, cobras, Igs and caiman, etc. Even various primates.
> 
> One day he even took me to the local zoo, where the keeper handed him the keys to the leopard enclosure. In we went and the next thing the leopard came over and was rolling around like a puppy. He used to keep it at his home but eventually donated it to the zoo. We also went behind the scenes to the see the lion cubs. Was a fascinating day, as every day was with him. The most frightening part was being on the back of his motorbike, with no helmet on, whilst he whizzed in between the traffic...
> 
> I was getting itchy again. I needed my own snake. I used to go on field trips, catching black whips (Coluber jugularis), the Cypriot whip (Coluber cypriensis), Montpellier (Malpolon monspessulanus) and the blunt nosed viper (Vipera lebetina). I never saw the other species of Cypriot snakes, except in my friend's collection. I used to keep them for a while then release them where I found them. Of the many vipers I owned, I was always ill at ease when having to capture, handle, etc. That's is when I realised venomous wasn't for me.
> 
> When I was posted back to the UK I bought an Ig, had him for 15 years until he sadly passed away. He was such a character and puppy soft.
> 
> I go back to Cyprus quite regularly, although I haven't been for a couple of years. Last time I went, as usual, one of the first things I do is scoot round to my friends place. However, this time it was closed down. So off I went to his house.
> 
> This is where I found out that the year previously he was tagged by a King. He was distracted and it caught him on his thumb. Was in hospital for some time, "died" three times and was in a coma for a few days. He made a complete recovery (almost), he's lost the top part of his thumb but also feels out of breath all the time. This is from a man who has kept all sorts over the years and really knows his stuff. He's confident in handling and very knowledgeable.
> 
> Now, I still keep arboreal, it's what floats my boat. Mangroves, Cyanea, Aheatulla & Chrysopelea & Rough greens. I would like to get a Burm again one day and maybe an Ig as I've still got a soft spot for those. I have also got into frogs; White's, Red-eyed and Darts.
> 
> So the point of this long drawn out drivel is: whatever you may think you like, might not be the case. Keeping venomous isn't the next step on the snake keeping ladder. Some people go a lifetime without moving into that arena. I tried it, wasn't for me. There are so many fascinating species out there, without even having to contemplate venomous.
> 
> However, take the next few years getting to know husbandry, handling techniques, etc and learn as much as you can before even thinking about moving on to venomous. Be prepared & be careful.
> 
> Good luck to you, whatever you decide.


Thankyou.

I have always been facinated by snakes. I am currently in talks with the family on letting me get hands=on experience. Mangrove Snakes + Falsies may not be dangerous, but bites are still extremely painful and they deserve a lot of respect and allergict reactions to the venom are never pleasant.

Burm as in Burmese Python?

I thought that was a bit of a bad idea being in-experienced......As they get bigger, they become dangerous (Around 8-10feet)


----------



## ViperLover

tigersnake said:


> A very interesting story jasper1, and some very good advice. If there were more of these posts, I am sure more people would contribute to this site.
> Thanks again for an interesting story, and such good advice for a novice keeper.
> Cheers,
> Brian.


 
I agree....


----------



## Mark O'Shea

*The lad is learning*

Well everybody, I think it is time to ease up on young Viperlover, he seems to have gotten the message and is taking heed. So fair play to him for shelving the venomous snake idea until he is much older, wiser and more experienced, it takes a lot to curb youthful enthusiasm as the autobiographical posts by some other members have shown. 

By the way, SW-Morelia, sorry for the renaming, slip of the keyboard.
But a correction for you too, I'm afraid.
I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
"we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and "why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?" 
If these quotes are true they are quite damning.

I was pleased to see someone praise John Foden as a help in their past, he was a long time friend of mine right from when I was a kid and turned up to see him with a sick dice snake. Although John was only a few years older he seemed much older because he was a "zoo keeper"!
His passing in 1999 was a very sad day for British reptile keeping.

I would like to make one observation which Viperlover might find food for thought. 
There are herpetoculturists and herpetologists. 

The former keeps and breeds reptiles and amphibians, the latter studies them. The former can build up a nice big collection, the latter often cannot. The reason, to really study reptiles in the full sense of the word 'study' goes beyond devouring every book on the subject and really entails studying hard at school and then going to university to get a degree to enable you to get to grips with the more complicated subjects of population biology, systematics and taxonomy (naming species), venom composition and effects, biogeography and distribution, conservation and habitat management, morphology, etc. etc. etc. the list is endless.

If that is the route you ultimately want to take then the very fact that in a few years you might be off to university means either you will have to slim down your collection to something your parents will agree to take on in your absence, or part with it completely. I was fortunate, I did my degree as a mature student at a poly/uni near my home so I continued to keep my collection, and I was not quite a penniless student having works for 7years and there were grants then, not loans, but for most people today that is not an option.

Then with a new degree under your belt and a heap of debt to look forward to, you have to job hunt or apply for higher degrees or research projects, maybe overseas, and in all these instances a large collection of herps might have to be sacrificed. Higher education is a great way forwards but often you cannot have everything and sacrifices have to be made. I personally have not kept reptiles at home for longer as you have been breathing air Viperlover, but then my snakes etc all live at the Safari Park. I travel a great deal so this is one sacrifice I am prepared to make to enable me to encounter hundreds of fascinating herps in their own countries.

You might be able to farm out a few boas and pythons, but not cobras.
Jasper1's RAF career seems to have had a similar effect on his collection at least for a period of time.

On the python front, Viperlover, you are thinking straight. Big pythons can be dangerous, retics but even Burms. There have been fatalities in the US from both species. One American lad died because his Burm, which he allowed to roam his bedroom, got into bed with him and hugged him too tightly. These big species (anacondas, African rocks too) are fine for serious big snake enthusiasts and zoos but they require more space and quite frankly they generally just sit there and wonder when their next meal is going to arrive. Being the same size as the meal is not a great idea because they can kill you quicker than almost any venomous snake. And they move more quickly and strike a whole hell of a lot further than many people realise.

I would say, and I am sure most of the forum members would agree, that there are loads and loads of really cool smaller species. In your shoes I would get some experience with easy to keep species like corns and then decide on something to really get your teeth into, carpets, spotted pythons, milksnakes, something that are small enough to allow you to keep several pairs and breed them, sell the offspring (captive breeding is conservation) and obtain something else you would like to work with. Write up your successes (and failures) for the herp fraternity, join a society (IHS), meet more people and in a year or two you will be giving advice (like some of the posters who are only a couple of years older than you) rather than having to take it all.
Many people pride themselves on first UK breeding records. I managed Aruba Is. rattlers and Ornate cantil firsts in the 1990s and was quite chuffed, although I have less time for such things these days and my colleagues do most of the day to day husbandry. Yes, those were venomous, but somebody managed to maintain mandarin ratsnakes and green catsnakes successfully for the first time and were rightfully proud of themselves. You could be too.

If your circumstances are right in 10 years you might, or might not, decide to keep venomous snakes. Either way, you will be much better equiped to make the decision and you will look back at this episode as an important lesson.

To become more experienced you have to stay alive.

Regards

Mark


----------



## SWMorelia

Mark O'Shea said:


> By the way, SW-Morelia, sorry for the renaming, slip of the keyboard.


No probs... I do it all the time Mike:lol2:



Mark O'Shea said:


> But a correction for you too, I'm afraid.
> I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
> A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
> "we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and "why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?"
> If these quotes are true they are quite damning.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mark


:blush:
Seems he may be frugal with the events and so I miss interpreted his exact meaning.....:whistling2:
Though you have heard of him, so thats something :bash:


----------



## ViperLover

Mark O'Shea said:


> Well everybody, I think it is time to ease up on young Viperlover, he seems to have gotten the message and is taking heed. So fair play to him for shelving the venomous snake idea until he is much older, wiser and more experienced, it takes a lot to curb youthful enthusiasm as the autobiographical posts by some other members have shown.
> 
> By the way, SW-Morelia, sorry for the renaming, slip of the keyboard.
> But a correction for you too, I'm afraid.
> I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
> A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
> "we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and "why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?"
> If these quotes are true they are quite damning.
> 
> I was pleased to see someone praise John Foden as a help in their past, he was a long time friend of mine right from when I was a kid and turned up to see him with a sick dice snake. Although John was only a few years older he seemed much older because he was a "zoo keeper"!
> His passing in 1999 was a very sad day for British reptile keeping.
> 
> I would like to make one observation which Viperlover might find food for thought.
> There are herpetoculturists and herpetologists.
> 
> The former keeps and breeds reptiles and amphibians, the latter studies them. The former can build up a nice big collection, the latter often cannot. The reason, to really study reptiles in the full sense of the word 'study' goes beyond devouring every book on the subject and really entails studying hard at school and then going to university to get a degree to enable you to get to grips with the more complicated subjects of population biology, systematics and taxonomy (naming species), venom composition and effects, biogeography and distribution, conservation and habitat management, morphology, etc. etc. etc. the list is endless.
> 
> If that is the route you ultimately want to take then the very fact that in a few years you might be off to university means either you will have to slim down your collection to something your parents will agree to take on in your absence, or part with it completely. I was fortunate, I did my degree as a mature student at a poly/uni near my home so I continued to keep my collection, and I was not quite a penniless student having works for 7years and there were grants then, not loans, but for most people today that is not an option.
> 
> Then with a new degree under your belt and a heap of debt to look forward to, you have to job hunt or apply for higher degrees or research projects, maybe overseas, and in all these instances a large collection of herps might have to be sacrificed. Higher education is a great way forwards but often you cannot have everything and sacrifices have to be made. I personally have not kept reptiles at home for longer as you have been breathing air Viperlover, but then my snakes etc all live at the Safari Park. I travel a great deal so this is one sacrifice I am prepared to make to enable me to encounter hundreds of fascinating herps in their own countries.
> 
> You might be able to farm out a few boas and pythons, but not cobras.
> Jasper1's RAF career seems to have had a similar effect on his collection at least for a period of time.
> 
> On the python front, Viperlover, you are thinking straight. Big pythons can be dangerous, retics but even Burms. There have been fatalities in the US from both species. One American lad died because his Burm, which he allowed to roam his bedroom, got into bed with him and hugged him too tightly. These big species (anacondas, African rocks too) are fine for serious big snake enthusiasts and zoos but they require more space and quite frankly they generally just sit there and wonder when their next meal is going to arrive. Being the same size as the meal is not a great idea because they can kill you quicker than almost any venomous snake. And they move more quickly and strike a whole hell of a lot further than many people realise.
> 
> I would say, and I am sure most of the forum members would agree, that there are loads and loads of really cool smaller species. In your shoes I would get some experience with easy to keep species like corns and then decide on something to really get your teeth into, carpets, spotted pythons, milksnakes, something that are small enough to allow you to keep several pairs and breed them, sell the offspring (captive breeding is conservation) and obtain something else you would like to work with. Write up your successes (and failures) for the herp fraternity, join a society (IHS), meet more people and in a year or two you will be giving advice (like some of the posters who are only a couple of years older than you) rather than having to take it all.
> Many people pride themselves on first UK breeding records. I managed Aruba Is. rattlers and Ornate cantil firsts in the 1990s and was quite chuffed, although I have less time for such things these days and my colleagues do most of the day to day husbandry. Yes, those were venomous, but somebody managed to maintain mandarin ratsnakes and green catsnakes successfully for the first time and were rightfully proud of themselves. You could be too.
> 
> If your circumstances are right in 10 years you might, or might not, decide to keep venomous snakes. Either way, you will be much better equiped to make the decision and you will look back at this episode as an important lesson.
> 
> To become more experienced you have to stay alive.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mark


 
Thankyou very much Mark....

I have been thinking not to rush into Venomous over the last few days...I have been doing my homework researching snakebite and the results were shockingly horrific, bad and deadly. Even the professionals such as yourself and other herpetologists screw up. So a novice would be practically attempting suicide by keeping these animals. I watched the video time and time again when you were handling the Zebra Spitter...Gorgeous specimen, but not my cup of tea for another 15 years. These animals aren't like the family pet....They WILL NOT give you a kiss on the face.....A love-bite...Maybe.

I would really like to come and check out you're reptile safari park, and possibly a guided....BUT Un-contacted tour of you're snakeroom (Meaning I look but don't touch) and a chance to meet up with you and discuss Herps.

Any information on this would be appreciated and gladly would be recieved in a Personal Message.

What herps do you keep at the reptile safari park?? They look very interesting but out of my league to play with as of yet.


----------



## exoticsadmirer

ViperLover said:


> I would really like to come and check out you're reptile safari park, and possibly a guided....BUT Un-contacted tour of you're snakeroom (Meaning I look but don't touch) and a chance to meet up with you and discuss Herps.
> What herps do you keep at the reptile safari park?? They look very interesting but out of my league to play with as of yet.


Do you mean Mark O'shea's reptile world at west midland safari park? because if you do it is really worth the Visit and i am thinking of going next year for my 18th to have a look the reptiles specimens i have been told about by friends say they are amazing but i'll believe that when i get there.


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## ViperLover

exoticsadmirer said:


> Do you mean Mark O'shea's reptile world at west midland safari park? because if you do it is really worth the Visit and i am thinking of going next year for my 18th to have a look the reptiles specimens i have been told about by friends say they are amazing but i'll believe that when i get there.


 
Any place that has the balls to keep a Papuan Taipan has got to be amazing....Just the thought of seeing a King Cobra drives me there!

Hands down, they have to be my favourite Elapid


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## Genseric

You should count yourself lucky mate... you are getting A1 advise from some of the best and well know (and respected) people we have in this country... something not many can say! 

Welcome to our world... we don't have many members, but we cover the globe


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## exoticsadmirer

Ophiophagus hannah does have to be one of my favourite snakes but my current eye is set on a Orthriophis taeniurus spp if thats right then upping my game like i said i planned out to DWA put another genus of snakes(if it's genus i might be wrong) catches my eye i'll put DWA plans on hold or cancel them all together.


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## Mark O'Shea

*giving advice*

Dear All, I don't mind giving advice and I encourage the keeping of reptile for many reasons to lengthy to go into now. The right species, for the right reasons, in the right conditions.

I would not be where I am today if I had not asked questions, read books and taken advice when I was younger, but I really do not have time to be entering into a one-to-one, no offense but I have a publishing deadline coming towards me like a fast-moving train in a tunnel (I've already written 86,000 words for the first of three books), plus deadlines for scientific papers I am working on with colleagues overseas, plus, plus, plus!
It makes a bit of a diversion to add something to the forum but I cannot devote too much time to it or I will fall behind.

As for what we keep at WMSP, off the top of my head: western diamondbacks, eastern diamondback, ornate cantil, gaboon, & rhino vipers, West African carpet viper, Saharan sand viper, white-lipped pitviper, snouted cobra, Thai cobra, king cobra, Papuan taipan, reticulated & amethystine pythons, common boa, green anaconda, alligator, various caiman, W.African dwarf, Nile and Cuban crocs, some lizards including crocodile skinks and monkey-tail, other nonvenomous snakes, various frogs etc. Not everything is on show, nor will it be at any one time. The collection is designed to illustrate species I have featured in my films (king cobra, anacondas etc), or done research on or capture for venom research (Papuan taipan), although be clear, none of the specimens in the collection were captured and brought back by me, I don't do that. We are very pleased with our Record Breakers exhibits ie. king, retic, anaconda, and we have more educational material around the walls than any collection I have visited including large boards of Snakebite, the Amphibian Crisis and British Reptiles. 

Of course there are also the Reserves, between 4-5miles of roads with lions, tigers, while lions, white tigers, leopards, cheetahs, African hunting dogs, timber wolves, elephant, white rhino, water buffalo, giraffe, camels etc. and off the Reserves, sealions and hippos (not together of course) Seaquarium, Creepy Crawlies and Twilight World with free-flying bats and an aye-aye. Check out www.wmsp.co.uk for more information. In the good weather you can make a full day of a trip to the Park, but bring a car, they are handy for going through the lion reserves.

I am there for a certain number of days a year, doing encounters and signing my books. My colleagues tend to know if I am due in or whether I am overseas, so it is worth checking if you particularly wanted to meet me. Guided tours behind the scenes are not as easy to arrange as they once were due to the more stringent rules that govern zoos.

Okay, right now I must get back to proof-reading the book, I hope you understand (and before anyone asks - Lizards).


Mark


----------



## leecb0

Mark O'Shea said:


> I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !


I did find this very amusing and wonderd if someone would say what i was thinking



[/QUOTE]I was pleased to see someone praise John Foden as a help in their past, he was a long time friend of mine right from when I was a kid and turned up to see him with a sick dice snake. Although John was only a few years older he seemed much older because he was a "zoo keeper"!
His passing in 1999 was a very sad day for British reptile keeping.

[/QUOTE]
In my opinion one of the finest human beings i have ever had the pleasure of knowing an awsome Herper, Knowledge and experience i one day would love to emulate, and one of the most eclectic and envious collections i have seen:notworthy:. And i miss the snake nights at the zoo. I also did meet you at his funeral, ive never been one for the scene and getting about within the herp world have always stayed private and kept my collections and thoughts and ideas to myself. But i did run a breakaway reptile rescue from PH about 15/10 years ago


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## exoticsadmirer

ty for the help Mark i must say you should defo get back to the books.


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## Genseric

BTW.. just came across this, and should put to bed any rumours about the Copperhead.. a lovely animal, no doubt, but any I worked with always made me feel like I was being hunted.

EverythingHealth: Copperhead Snake Bite


----------



## Tehanu

After starting out somewhat dubious! This topic has really blossomed into an enjoyable read 

The personal tales have to be my favourites, it makes me feel almost normal amongst you lot :2thumb:

Keep up the good work chaps:flrt:
Lotte***


----------



## SWMorelia

Mark..... OFF TOPIC....
A quick pitch in your direction....
Cheeky I know, but you joined now.... LOL
I understand that you are maybe busy, But...
How about dropping in from time to time when this thread ends...
Treat it like twitter for herp nerds...
It wouldn't have to take more than a couple of minutes every couple of days....
And with mobile technology..... Well...
It could be a good angle for everyone concerned....:whistling2:


----------



## Mark O'Shea

*chewing the fat*



SW-morelia said:


> Mark..... OFF TOPIC....
> A quick pitch in your direction....
> Cheeky I know, but you joined now.... LOL
> I understand that you are maybe busy, But...
> How about dropping in from time to time when this thread ends...
> Treat it like twitter for herp nerds...
> It wouldn't have to take more than a couple of minutes every couple of days....
> And with mobile technology..... Well...
> It could be a good angle for everyone concerned....:whistling2:


Okay SW Morelia, we will see if I have anything to contribute in the future.
There are certain aspects of captive herps that bother me ie. DWAA and the disorganisation and misunderstandings (faults on both sides), antivenom (expiry dates - this is not a piece chicken from ASDA), venomoids (a crime against the snake), interspecific hybridisation (another crime, playing God), mihilisitic nomenclature (the unwarrented naming of species for personal edification = RH), but sometimes it is good to just chew the fat!

Mark


----------



## ViperLover

Mark O'Shea said:


> Okay SW Morelia, we will see if I have anything to contribute in the future.
> There are certain aspects of captive herps that bother me ie. DWAA and the disorganisation and misunderstandings (faults on both sides), antivenom (expiry dates - this is not a piece chicken from ASDA), venomoids (a crime against the snake), interspecific hybridisation (another crime, playing God), mihilisitic nomenclature (the unwarrented naming of species for personal edification = RH), but sometimes it is good to just chew the fat!
> 
> Mark


 
Hybirdisation is something I am against.....Its cruel for the species and is un-natural to say the least (Although cases have been reported of this happening in the wild) for example....A male Canebreak with a Female Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake or Vise Versa

And the number one question is.....If you're bitten....There is NO Specific antivenom for that paticular Hybrid.....So you are danceing with death preying you're going to come out of it.

Rattlers on the otherhand (N. American) are treated with Crofab so if you were tagged by a Cane and EDB Hybrid I guess the chances would be much higher for a successful recovery.


----------



## SWMorelia

Mark O'Shea said:


> _Okay SW Morelia, we will see *if* I have anything to contribute in the future._
> *There are certain aspects of captive herps that bother me ie. DWAA and the disorganisation and misunderstandings (faults on both sides), antivenom (expiry dates - this is not a piece chicken from ASDA), venomoids (a crime against the snake), interspecific hybridisation (another crime, playing God), mihilisitic nomenclature (the unwarrented naming of species for personal edification = RH), but sometimes it is good to just chew the fat!*
> 
> Mark


Great understatement, to kick off with.... LOL


----------



## kain

Isn't one of the requirments that you live in a house that you (or person living with) owns/has a mortgage


----------



## slippery42

kain said:


> Isn't one of the requirments that you live in a house that you (or person living with) owns/has a mortgage


My understanding is that Council's do not allow DWA's in their housing stock.

I suspect that most Housing associations and similar would also ban it but that private rents may if asked.


----------



## ViperLover

slippery42 said:


> My understanding is that Council's do not allow DWA's in their housing stock.
> 
> I suspect that most Housing associations and similar would also ban it but that private rents may if asked.


 
In some way it is true....

But an experienced and sensible keeper has the right to keep these animals. If the keeper was in-experienced of only say 2 or so years. Then I would gladly accept the idea of saying "No DWA in the property"


----------



## SiUK

It is a pleasure to see you posting here Mark, hope you stick around and we see some more of you


----------



## paulrimmer69

ViperLover said:


> In some way it is true....
> 
> But an experienced and sensible keeper has the right to keep these animals. If the keeper was in-experienced of only say 2 or so years. Then I would gladly accept the idea of saying "No DWA in the property"


 
if you are in rented accomodation and the owner of the property says pets are not allowed then surely u dont have the right???? one or two non venomous you might get away with but when you have to convert a room to include a double door, bars across the window etc i doubt many landlords will agree to it


----------



## snakedude

Mark O'Shea said:


> By the way, SW-Morelia, sorry for the renaming, slip of the keyboard.
> But a correction for you too, I'm afraid.
> I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
> A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
> "we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and "why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?"
> If these quotes are true they are quite damning.
> 
> Mark, I have no doubt that knowing Mr H as well as I did these quotes are most likely to be true!
> 
> I was pleased to see someone praise John Foden as a help in their past, he was a long time friend of mine right from when I was a kid and turned up to see him with a sick dice snake. Although John was only a few years older he seemed much older because he was a "zoo keeper"!
> His passing in 1999 was a very sad day for British reptile keeping.
> 
> I really hate to appear picky and correct you on John's sad death Mark, it was 4th March 2000 when we lost a great figure and a great friend to many, myself included. I will never forget getting the phone call telling me he'd gone, I was planning a visit to the hospital the next day but sadly too late.
> 
> Anyways, hope you are well, it's been a while since I last saw you at the snake nights, not been since moving house to Stoke.


Kind regards,

Mike.

P.S
I know this is totally off topic and would've done this via pm ordinarily but couldn't.


----------



## ViperLover

snakedude said:


> Kind regards,
> 
> Mike.
> 
> P.S
> I know this is totally off topic and would've done this via pm ordinarily but couldn't.


 
No worries....This is a Thread for all.

What did he pass of? If you dont mind me asking.


----------



## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> if you are in rented accomodation and the owner of the property says pets are not allowed then surely u dont have the right???? one or two non venomous you might get away with but when you have to convert a room to include a double door, bars across the window etc i doubt many landlords will agree to it


 
Landlords...Maybe not.

But if it's you're own home....Mortgage or fully paid off....Then its you're business what you do....aslong as it's legal and lisenced and insured


----------



## snakedude

ViperLover said:


> No worries....This is a Thread for all.
> 
> What did he pass of? If you dont mind me asking.



To avoid clogging the thread, you have pm.

Kind regards,

Mike :snake:


----------



## ViperLover

*Television Show & W. Hognose*



Mark O'Shea said:


> Okay SW Morelia, we will see if I have anything to contribute in the future.
> There are certain aspects of captive herps that bother me ie. DWAA and the disorganisation and misunderstandings (faults on both sides), antivenom (expiry dates - this is not a piece chicken from ASDA), venomoids (a crime against the snake), interspecific hybridisation (another crime, playing God), mihilisitic nomenclature (the unwarrented naming of species for personal edification = RH), but sometimes it is good to just chew the fat!
> 
> Mark


 
Mark,

When will there be another series of O'Shea's Big Adventure? Or other shows like that.

I really enjoyed that series

Also....

A Western Hognosed Snake...

Tell me about it's venom please. I have heard it's Rear-Fanged Venomous....But the venom is so mild it's lighter then a Bee Sting.

Would this be a good first snake to start with? Ditching the idea of a FWC.

They are fairly easy to keep so I am told...Good for getting husbandry experience and are fairly docile.

Once I am used to seeing what theyre like....Then I can move to the more agressive Non-Vens such as a Black Racer (If I can get one that's NOT imported from the US and bread here)

Also....The Adder (Vipera berus) Please tell me about it's venom also.

Deaths have been reported....but not for many years. If this was legal to keep for private keepers....Would it be on the DWA List?


----------



## paulrimmer69

all species of viper are on dwa, have a look at the thread entitled 'complete list of dwa' on page 2 of the dwa section


----------



## Owzy

Mark O'Shea said:


> Okay SW Morelia, we will see if I have anything to contribute in the future.
> There are certain aspects of captive herps that bother me ie. DWAA and the disorganisation and misunderstandings (faults on both sides), antivenom (expiry dates - this is not a piece chicken from ASDA), venomoids (a crime against the snake), interspecific hybridisation (another crime, playing God), *mihilisitic nomenclature (the unwarrented naming of species for personal edification = RH)*, but sometimes it is good to just chew the fat!
> 
> Mark


I think everyone agress that guy is major scum.


----------



## ian14

ViperLover said:


> Mark,
> 
> When will there be another series of O'Shea's Big Adventure? Or other shows like that.
> 
> I really enjoyed that series
> 
> Also....
> 
> A Western Hognosed Snake...
> 
> Tell me about it's venom please. I have heard it's Rear-Fanged Venomous....But the venom is so mild it's lighter then a Bee Sting.
> 
> Would this be a good first snake to start with? Ditching the idea of a FWC.
> 
> They are fairly easy to keep so I am told...Good for getting husbandry experience and are fairly docile.
> 
> Once I am used to seeing what theyre like....Then I can move to the more agressive Non-Vens such as a Black Racer (If I can get one that's NOT imported from the US and bread here)
> 
> Also....The Adder (Vipera berus) Please tell me about it's venom also.
> 
> Deaths have been reported....but not for many years. If this was legal to keep for private keepers....Would it be on the DWA List?


May I politely suggest that you start at the beginning and work your way up. You are 16 years old, want to get into snake keeping by keeping venomous species, and clearly have no understanding of the DWA, or snake keeping in general.
Adders are vipers, and so are restricted by the DWA.
To play down the effect of any venom by saying "it is so mild it is lighter than a bee sting" is ridiculous - don't forget that there have been plenty of deaths from bee stings! And ask any one who has had an envenomated bite from a hognose - they are not pleasant at all. Of course, compared to an elapid or viper bite, they are mild, but the effects are very unpleasant, in one case leading to permanent damage to the immune system.
If you have the intention of going into venomous, great, but accept that you are a complete beginner, and need to gain practical experience of snake keeping BEFORE thinking about this any further.


----------



## stuartdouglas

ian14 said:


> May I politely suggest that you start at the beginning and work your way up. You are 16 years old, want to get into snake keeping by keeping venomous species, and clearly have no understanding of the DWA, or snake keeping in general.
> Adders are vipers, and so are restricted by the DWA.
> To play down the effect of any venom by saying "it is so mild it is lighter than a bee sting" is ridiculous - don't forget that there have been plenty of deaths from bee stings! And ask any one who has had an envenomated bite from a hognose - they are not pleasant at all. Of course, compared to an elapid or viper bite, they are mild, but the effects are very unpleasant, in one case leading to permanent damage to the immune system.
> If you have the intention of going into venomous, great, but accept that you are a complete beginner, and need to gain practical experience of snake keeping BEFORE thinking about this any further.


you beat me to it!
Viperlover, let me show you this..................
This was from a snake whose venom is widely regarded as being, like that of the hoggy, no worse than a bee sting...........


















That was from a non-DWA, rear fanged snake. It sent me to A&E in a lot of pain, gave me neurological symptoms and worried me that i would lose part, if not all of my thumb through necrosis.

(Most) people on this section speak from experience. Don't rush into something where you may quickly find yourself way out of your depth. Certainly don't take any rear fanged for granted.


----------



## ViperLover

stuartdouglas said:


> you beat me to it!
> Viperlover, let me show you this..................
> This was from a snake whose venom is widely regarded as being, like that of the hoggy, no worse than a bee sting...........
> 
> image
> 
> image
> That was from a non-DWA, rear fanged snake. It sent me to A&E in a lot of pain, gave me neurological symptoms and worried me that i would lose part, if not all of my thumb through necrosis.
> 
> (Most) people on this section speak from experience. Don't rush into something where you may quickly find yourself way out of your depth. Certainly don't take any rear fanged for granted.


 
Thankyou - Nasty bite!

What snake did the damage?


----------



## ian14

It was a mangrove if I remember rightly.


----------



## ViperLover

ian14 said:


> It was a mangrove if I remember rightly.


Ahhh..

So nobody recomends a W. Hognose?

What about Black Racers? Extremely agressive non-vens togive hook experience


----------



## kettykev

ViperLover said:


> Ahhh..
> 
> So nobody recomends a W. Hognose?


That's a strange thing to say when the snake section is full of threads regarding hognoses and there are plenty of them for sale in the classifieds.
It is great to see Mark on here but I think he came on here to add a voice of reason and experience to a certain thread and is too busy to answer every query that can easily be looked up either here, in books or just via an internet search.


----------



## ian14

ViperLover said:


> Ahhh..
> 
> So nobody recomends a W. Hognose?
> 
> What about Black Racers? Extremely agressive non-vens togive hook experience


Slow down - black racers are very aggressive and will almost certainly be WC. They are NOT suited to a beginner. You have got to gain plenty of experience with keeping snakes before looking at anything like this.
It's a bit like driving - you can't say "right, I want to own and drive the fastest production car available" when you are not even old enough to drive - you need to learn to drive first, then once you pass your test, get experience in driving before trying to drive a high powered car.
Snake keeping is no different. You need to start off learning how to actually keep them in captivity, then once you have done that, start to progress to more challenging species. Then, once you have years of experience, you could think about DWA. No council is going to give you a licence when you have never kept a snake before, or have only very limited experience.


----------



## Genseric

TBH, and this is what I was told to do in the dark ages (the 80's)... look around, try to get an idea of the different species out there. Read up on various ones.. one will 'click' with you (mine was the diadem, how I loved those guys)... read up some more, and start to prepare the vivarium (personally I have taken weeks to pre a viv, but I am lazy and precise, not a good combination). Once you have the Viv prepared, temps checked, humidity (if required) checked, and looking all pretty (as we all tend to do our first time).. go get your snake. Now, perhaps it is an unusual (as in not kept by many) species.. wait and study.. bide your time!! 

When you do eventually get your animal, the study has just begun!! Weights, feeding, food items.. man even temperature and temprament... fecal examinations.. probing? It is a whole new world, and all with one wee (or large) animal!

I insinuated before, and I will repeat again.. you are lucky. You have some of the best herping minds, not just in the UK, but the world, here at your disposal... and whilst some can't be a personal friend/tutor, they can and do offer advice.. which is priceless!

Don't get caught up in the excitment of the potential.. having a snake, feeding it... get prepared to make it a reality... also, talk to your folks about it.. show them your knowledge and progress (it makes life easier).

Good luck

Oh, and if anyone knows of a Diadem looking a home, drop me a line


----------



## George_Millett

stuartdouglas said:


> you beat me to it!
> Viperlover, let me show you this..................
> This was from a snake whose venom is widely regarded as being, like that of the hoggy, no worse than a bee sting...........
> 
> image
> 
> image
> That was from a non-DWA, rear fanged snake. It sent me to A&E in a lot of pain, gave me neurological symptoms and worried me that i would lose part, if not all of my thumb through necrosis.
> 
> (Most) people on this section speak from experience. Don't rush into something where you may quickly find yourself way out of your depth. Certainly don't take any rear fanged for granted.


Stuart what are the red line and writing on your hand for? A way of tracking the damage over a period of time?


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> What about Black Racers? Extremely agressive non-vens togive hook experience


I keep and breed coluber constrictor

they do actually tame down pretty well if you get a hatchling...seem to lose the aggression...but yes they are certainly born with agression.









You would need to buy a wc one for the full aggresion of it, but i wouldnt reconmend a wc snake to a new keeper.

I think ian has hit the nail on the head...start off at the bottom and work your way up....thats how everyone learn both DWA and non DWA keepers


----------



## leecb0

Im sure i have seen those pix somewhere before Stuart cos i was trying to find them to show somebody the otherday what a mangrove can do as they had been told its like a "bee sting"
I was giving a talk to some keepers at Woburn safari park about 10 years ago and i was showing them my FWC, whilst explaining to them that it was rear fanged and i was free handling it that if they latch on try not to let them chew on you so they can get the rear fangs in to you the little sod did just that, one of the keepers said "what like that" and i just said "yes just like this" while trying to detatch the snake, about an hour or so later my hand did swell up a bit not to the extent of yours Stu i also had a numb feeling in my hand which lasted for about 2 weeks or so. i still keep them but i treat them a bit more cautiously now.


----------



## PDR

snakedude said:


> I really hate to appear picky and correct you on John's sad death Mark, it was 4th March 2000 when we lost a great figure and a great friend to many, myself included. I will never forget getting the phone call telling me he'd gone, I was planning a visit to the hospital the next day but sadly too late.


I had the privilege to know John for many years and it was a great loss to us all when he died.

Regarding the date/year, to be fair it is an easy mistake to make. I lost my Mother unexpectedly a few months after John died so I know the year was 2000. I do however vividly recall Mark and myself sorting through John’s collection the following day. None of the cages in his flat where labelled so we did not know exactly what was going to be in the trap boxes. John had told me the previous year about his illness and had asked that I give his animals a good home. 
Mark and I split the collection, with me mainly taking elapids.... one of which was a King Cobra that I kept for several years and then sent to WMSP. I felt it was right that this snake should go back to the Midlands where John had lived & worked. I believe it is still growing and is an impressive display in the reptile house at WMSP.


----------



## PDR

QUOTE=Mark O'Shea;5039298]I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
"we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and *"why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?" *
If these quotes are true they are quite damning.

Mark[/QUOTE]

Hi Mark, you know the story.... but for everyone else:

I can categorically state that this is TRUE as I was there when he said it in front of a good friend of mine, a colleague from work and a room full of students. I can’t remember the date but I had been asked to go up to his place to give a talk for a course he was running. It was the first time I had met him. He asked me to demonstrate some handling techniques with a false water cobra and this was when he gave the spiel about it not being on the DWAA and how he thought it was wrong that this “cobra” had been left off the list. 
He even sent a letter expressing his concerns to a well known Vet who was involved with the DWAA Governmental review.:whistling2:
PH has tried unsuccessfully on several occasions to cause trouble for me, so I guess it is no secret that I really detest the guy.:censor:


----------



## leecb0

Paul what do you expect PH did use to be a Trafic Warden:devil:
anychance i can pm you PDR as i would like to know some info on one of the snakes you had off John which i dont want to put on publick forum
Lee


----------



## SiUK

PDR said:


> QUOTE=Mark O'Shea;5039298]I do not recall being at uni with the person you mention and he certainly is not my friend! Leading expert on crocodilians, LOL !
> A few years these two reported PH quotes were doing the rounds, from his days of doing raids on reptile keepers for the RSPCA:
> "we seized the spectacled caiman because it was not being kept in conditions conducive with its native Papua New Guinea" and *"why is the false water cobra the only cobra not on the DWAA?" *
> If these quotes are true they are quite damning.
> 
> Mark





> Hi Mark, you know the story.... but for everyone else:
> 
> I can categorically state that this is TRUE as I was there when he said it in front of a good friend of mine, a colleague from work and a room full of students. I can’t remember the date but I had been asked to go up to his place to give a talk for a course he was running. It was the first time I had met him. He asked me to demonstrate some handling techniques with a false water cobra and this was when he gave the spiel about it not being on the DWAA and how he thought it was wrong that this “cobra” had been left off the list.
> He even sent a letter expressing his concerns to a well known Vet who was involved with the DWAA Governmental review.:whistling2:
> PH has tried unsuccessfully on several occasions to cause trouble for me, so I guess it is no secret that I really detest the guy.:censor:


 
Good to know that the RSPCA, are training the staff they send out on raids well so that they can make educated decisions about the things they are paid to enforce :whistling2:


----------



## matthewduval

ull be dead by the time your 17 i wouldnt even bother get some experinace behind u first


----------



## PDR

leecb0 said:


> Paul what do you expect PH did use to be a Trafic Warden:devil:
> anychance i can pm you PDR as i would like to know some info on one of the snakes you had off John which i dont want to put on publick forum
> Lee


Yes, I'll try and help best I can.


----------



## Aconite

It has been a pleasure reading this thread! 
I have been keeping snakes all my life and have only recently become interested in venomous. Not because I wish to keep them or work with them, but simply as I know so little about them and feel I need to learn more. 

I am a woman and as a keeper I feel almost immune to the testosterone high so many young lads get when they handle dangerous animals. It makes me feel very sorry for them, as I am never put under the same social pressure to be strong and brave, as men are. 

It is hard to explain what I mean, so I hope you dont get me wrong- but when I watch young men handle snakes it is clear they feel the need to rush things and not look chicken. They also do silly things too look confident and knowledgeable that often end badly, for either them or the snake. 

I remember when I first started volunteering at a reptile zoo/show a 21 year old lad there decided to feed the large burm pythons. I guess he wanted to impress me, but he decided to throw the food into the enclosure with both snakes in at the same time and they attacked each other thinking the other snake was the food. It was a big mess. It was an unnecessary incident, and could have been avoided if he was not trying to show off. 
But sadly, when it comes to snakes, cars, women, etc young men feel the need to live dangerously. 

This need to be macho obviously is not the case for all men though! So do forgive me if I appear sexist!!! 

But what makes me laugh the most is the fear and respect my little egg eaters command!!!
My first snake, when I was about 9, was an eggeater and I remember how it used to coil and strike and scare the hell out of me. 
Now many years later I have the same species and it does the same thing. Even when people know the snake has no teeth they jump back in fright and refuse to touch the snake. 
I think this in itself demonstrates the almost primal response people have to snakes.

I think the op should go into a few pet shops and handle bulls, kings and the odd racer. 
Just feel the way they move, the way they respond to your movement and the primal fear that even an non-venomous snake will bring out in you. 
The bluff of a bull and the naughty chew of a king will make you see how diverse and exciting all snakes are regardless of size, shape, colour or if they are venomous or not. 

There is a world of snakes out there and even after keeping them and being passionate about them all my life I still know nothing! There is always more to learn, and always a stunned curse and then laugh when your "puppy dog" carpet python unexpectedly nabs you when you go in to clean out the poo. 

Just enjoy, dont rush things!


----------



## DRD

Viperlover
Have you ever handled a particularly aggressive snake?
If so what snake was this?
Have you ever received a bite of any snake?

i only ask these questions as most people are put of by the experiance.

not that u should be bit by a snake, but some times it is inevitable.

one day when u eventually get a HOT snake, u may stroll home from a night on the town with mates and show off your "skills" for example; watch me kiss a cobra its a bit obvious whats going to happen! and a bite to the face could be one of the worst especially being so close to the brain!


----------



## ViperLover

DRD said:


> Viperlover
> Have you ever handled a particularly aggressive snake?
> If so what snake was this?
> Have you ever received a bite of any snake?
> 
> i only ask these questions as most people are put of by the experiance.
> 
> not that u should be bit by a snake, but some times it is inevitable.
> 
> one day when u eventually get a HOT snake, u may stroll home from a night on the town with mates and show off your "skills" for example; watch me kiss a cobra its a bit obvious whats going to happen! and a bite to the face could be one of the worst especially being so close to the brain!


 
I'm going to a few local pet shops within the coming weeks to gain some knowledge from the breeders and to handle a few reptiles.

And.....No I have never been "Bit" by a snake....And I never plan to be either.....But as Mark rightly said.....Saying you will never be bit, is somewhat cocksure. Because you can't work with or keep reptiles and not expect to lose a bit of Blood here and there. (Or worse if the animal is Venomous)

I am also trying to plan a Herping trip with a friend (Naming no names) who is visiting in 2010.....Hopefully I'll get to see some Vipera berus. He's a specialist venomous keeper so I won't even have to have interactions with the Adders and will be able to safely enjoy them from a distance unless I am told it's safe to handle.

Anybody who wants to tag along.....PM me. I'll give more information as and when I recieve it.


----------



## ViperLover

DRD said:


> Viperlover
> Have you ever handled a particularly aggressive snake?
> If so what snake was this?
> Have you ever received a bite of any snake?
> 
> i only ask these questions as most people are put of by the experiance.
> 
> not that u should be bit by a snake, but some times it is inevitable.
> 
> one day when u eventually get a HOT snake, u may stroll home from a night on the town with mates and show off your "skills" for example; watch me kiss a cobra its a bit obvious whats going to happen! and a bite to the face could be one of the worst especially being so close to the brain!


 

And when it comes down to a Cobra (Or any venomous snake).....There is no "Skills".....There's a simple concept....If you act stupid, or you *mess* up. You die. I personally, believe that if you're tagged because you kissed a Venomous snake....You do not deserve the serum. And should be made to pay every single penny back from the hospital bill. Anti-venin is made for a reason....And treating a bite which was caused by dumb acts such as "Showing you're skills" ISN'T one of those reasons.

However......The law doesn't see it that way.....and refuseal to administer anti-venin would probably be a murder, if not man-slaughter charge.


----------



## kain

In my honest opinion I wouldn't consider DWA until you have finished Collage/Uni or are in secure steady employment and moved into your own home., 

To your previous post the reason the law dosn't see it is that, your not gonna interview the owner as the venom does it work, to find out if he deserves the anti-venom. Seems like a monty python sketch in the making

Mr Johnson after much serious consideration we belive your entitled to the anit-venom, Mr Johnson, Mr Johnson are you ok? You look a bit pale


----------



## Owzy

ViperLover said:


> *And when it comes down to a Cobra (Or any venomous snake).....There is no "Skills".....There's a simple concept....If you act stupid, or you mess up. You die.* I personally, believe that if you're tagged because you kissed a Venomous snake....You do not deserve the serum. And should be made to pay every single penny back from the hospital bill. Anti-venin is made for a reason....And treating a bite which was caused by dumb acts such as "Showing you're skills" ISN'T one of those reasons.
> 
> However......The law doesn't see it that way.....and refuseal to administer anti-venin would probably be a murder, if not man-slaughter charge.


:gasp: Please stop.


----------



## slippery42

Viperlover do us all a favour go away!


----------



## adam--r

ViperLover said:


> And when it comes down to a Cobra (Or any venomous snake).....There is no "Skills".....There's a simple concept....If you act stupid, or you **** up. You die. I personally, believe that if you're tagged because you kissed a Venomous snake....You do not deserve the serum. And should be made to pay every single penny back from the hospital bill. Anti-venin is made for a reason....And treating a bite which was caused by dumb acts such as "Showing you're skills" ISN'T one of those reasons.
> 
> However......The law doesn't see it that way.....and refuseal to administer anti-venin would probably be a murder, if not man-slaughter charge.


:blah:,

Did you hear that Mr O'Shea ? You have no skill :2thumb:


----------



## mad martin

_



And when it comes down to a Cobra (Or any venomous snake).....There is no "Skills".....There's a simple concept....If you act stupid, or you **** up. You die. I personally, believe that if you're tagged because you kissed a Venomous snake....You do not deserve the serum. And should be made to pay every single penny back from the hospital bill. Anti-venin is made for a reason....And treating a bite which was caused by dumb acts such as "Showing you're skills" ISN'T one of those reasons.

However......The law doesn't see it that way.....and refuseal to administer anti-venin would probably be a murder, if not man-slaughter charge.

Click to expand...

_ 
_I left it alone until now. That statement just shows how immature you really are. Someone like you really should never work with venomous reptiles. Because you are one of those guys that will just go ass faced into something without bothering to learn the right way to do things._
_You say there is no skill? You have obviously never worked with a cobra before. Watching someone do it on t.v. makes it look a lot easier than it really is. Trust me._
_No one deserves to die, regardless of what they did. I am a "reckless" handler and have been one for a loooong time. But I have also been working with these animals a looong time, and not just with captives. In my courses I teach the correct way of doing it, but each person is different. What I do works for me. So if I get bit I deserve to die? _

_You are pissing in a big pond of knowledge mate. Quit while you are ahead._


----------



## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> And when it comes down to a Cobra (Or any venomous snake).....There is no "Skills".....There's a simple concept....If you act stupid, or you **** up. You die. I personally, believe that if you're tagged because you kissed a Venomous snake....You do not deserve the serum. And should be made to pay every single penny back from the hospital bill. Anti-venin is made for a reason....And treating a bite which was caused by dumb acts such as "Showing you're skills" ISN'T one of those reasons.
> 
> However......The law doesn't see it that way.....and refuseal to administer anti-venin would probably be a murder, if not man-slaughter charge.


Could everyone please stop feeding the troll..........................


----------



## Owzy

stuartdouglas said:


> Could everyone please stop feeding the troll..........................


Ive got a bad feeling its not full.


----------



## iHorror

I've just stumbled across this thread and read just about everything, enjoyed what most of you have had to say, especially the personal stories lol

Just wanna say a few things, though.

ViperLover - Why, after numerous people telling you to start with a king, corn or royal, do you insist on going on about mangroves and FWCs as if you're looking to purchase one? 

Although you say you know all these people, you've no actual personal experience with owning anything. 

I'll be the first to admit I SH*T myself when I got my first bite, off a little corn snake. God knows what would have happened if it were anything more dangerous...... That bite was through inexperience and nievety as it was my first snake. 

I'm not having a dig, as I'm sure you came on here with good intention, but you did come on looking for advice and you've been given it.
So take it. And please stop trying to argue with those who know what they're talking about, they are giving you sound, solid advice.


----------



## paulrimmer69

to be perfectly honest i think this is all a big wind up!


----------



## stuartdouglas

I'm getting that feeling too, that there's someone small out there with too little to do with their time.


----------



## Azemiops

Do any of you guys remember the post from Al Cortiz saying 'do any of you know this bloke?'

Heres the thread

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/dwa-species/368211-anybody-know-bloke.html

Well 'Viperlover' is James Mintram, the guy mentioned in the thread.


----------



## stuartdouglas

Well, well, another one called out!!!

James Mintram, come on down!!!!!! Join Stacy and Andy/Gear21 in the "I'm so full of BS" hall of shame!!!


----------



## Jczreptiles

ViperLover said:


> And when it comes down to a Cobra (Or any venomous snake).....There is no "Skills".....There's a simple concept....If you act stupid, or you **** up. You die. I personally, believe that if you're tagged because you kissed a Venomous snake....You do not deserve the serum. And should be made to pay every single penny back from the hospital bill. Anti-venin is made for a reason....And treating a bite which was caused by dumb acts such as "Showing you're skills" ISN'T one of those reasons.
> 
> However......The law doesn't see it that way.....*and refuseal to administer anti-venin would probably be a murder, if not man-slaughter charge.*


 It is not even administrated in 100% of cases, it depends on the individual case for example if someone is bitten and goes to hospital and is showing no reaction they will keep them in and monitor them, it would be a waste of time if they used it for every 'dry bite' or someone who's body is fighting it on its own.


----------



## Owzy

He must have one crappy life.


----------



## slippery42

stuartdouglas said:


> Well, well, another one called out!!!
> 
> James Mintram, come on down!!!!!! Join Stacy and Andy/Gear21 in the "I'm so full of BS" hall of shame!!!



So is Stacy a bloke, a woman or a dont know? Or are they all the same halfwit?


----------



## SiUK

slippery42 said:


> So is Stacy a bloke, a woman or a dont know? Or are they all the same halfwit?


ViperLover isnt Stacey, and I havnt got a clue whether Stacy is male or female but I always assumed femaile. Since Stacy got called out heshe hasnt come back which is a shame because its good when people justify themselves or at least asknowledge that they have made a mistake.


----------



## paulrimmer69

well done tom, remember that thread from ages ago now uv mentioned it


----------



## mantella

adam--r said:


> :blah:,
> 
> Did you hear that Mr O'Shea ? You have no skill :2thumb:


He doesn't lol


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> And when it comes down to a Cobra (Or any venomous snake).....*There is no "Skills".....*There's a simple concept....If you act stupid, or you mess up. You die. .


Granted, there are a few people out there who think they are skilled at handling* venomous snakes but take unnecessary and stupid risks such as free handling snakes. Thankfully these people are in the minority.

Your comments are disrespectful to a good number of experienced and skilled Private keepers and Professional Herpetologists who endeavour to work in a responsible and safe manner. 

I have worked professionally with venomous species for 30 years now and manage the largest collection of venomous snakes in the UK. I handle* snakes every day for cleaning, examination or venom extraction. I would like to think that I have developed and honed my skills to a high level over the years and the fact that I am still alive & well with all my fingers intact, is not just down to sheer chance or blind luck! :whistling2:

*I use the term “handle” in this context to describe the safe manipulation of venomous snakes with snake-hooks and other restraint tools. These tools are used to either move the snake from its cage or to the enable the “handler” to restrain the snake prior to physically using his hands to hold the snake behind the head.


----------



## pythondave82

Hi Paul,

Well said, you took the words out of my mouth.

Cheers,

Dave


----------



## paulrimmer69

funny how viperlover hasnt posted tonight lol


----------



## ViperLover

*My appologies..!*

I shall rephrase myself in saying their is no"Skill" is handling Venomous reptiles.

There is a LOT of skill involved in handling Venomous snakes.....If people never had the skills and experience in knowing when the animal is about to, or about not to do something then there would be no such thing of this hobby as it would've been banned years ago.

My comment was referring to someone elses comment on this Thread of saying I would be the kind of guy who shows off when drunk...."Here, mate - Let me show you my skills" and acting stupid by kissing a Cobra, or doing silly things otherwise that result in a bite.

I appologise to people who got offended by this, I was NOT reffering to venomous handling being easy....I was referring to using dangerous ways such as risking a bite to the face by kissing a venomous animal....I meant to say that doing things like this were not skills and was an act of stupidity.

As for my comment on Antivenom administration - NOBODY deserves to die - People who act stupid on a constant basis....Yes, there is a minority do not deserve the constant attention of the doctors treating their life-threatening snake bites and therefore, people who are bitten constantly through stupidity (For example...Bruce George (Animal Planets Snake Buster) should be made to pay the full amount of the money that it costed to treat the bite. 

NOBODY deserves to die.....

I use Bruce George as an example after hearing Dr Bryan Grieg Fry's opinion of his 3 snakebites in less then a year of eachother through being stupid. Free-handling a Venomous snake is the most dangerous thing ANYBODY....Even experienced keepers can do. Saying this isn't just from me....Many venomous handlers I've spoken to, on and off this paticular Forum say Free-Handling is incredibly dangerous and should NEVER be attemtped by a beginner. Some experienced keepers do it, they clearly know the risks and dangerous involved.... 

Hats off to anybody who can pull it off without getting a bite.

I appologise once more for not being clear and thorough in my post.


----------



## Tehanu

Not too sure where else this topic can possibly go... (no kids it's not a challenge! :lol2

Anyway, I'd like to offer you an invite to the general snakes forum Viperlover, as this is where your next step lies  Time wasted here trying to debate the finer points of handling rights and wrongs when you've never handled any snake, would be better spent starting to learn in earnest about all snakes.

Best of luck
Lotte*


----------



## ViperLover

Saedcantas said:


> Not too sure where else this topic can possibly go... (no kids it's not a challenge! :lol2
> 
> Anyway, I'd like to offer you an invite to the general snakes forum Viperlover, as this is where your next step lies  Time wasted here trying to debate the finer points of handling rights and wrongs when you've never handled any snake, would be better spent starting to learn in earnest about all snakes.
> 
> Best of luck
> Lotte*


 
I will post a thread there.

But I'll post on this forum...Its never too early to learn about DWA.  And thankyou


----------



## Tehanu

ViperLover said:


> I will post a thread there.
> 
> But I'll post on this forum...Its never too early to learn about DWA.  And thankyou


You don't have to post threads to learn  You might simply read for the next 6 months and learn plenty.

: victory:


----------



## ViperLover

Saedcantas said:


> You don't have to post threads to learn  You might simply read for the next 6 months and learn plenty.
> 
> : victory:


 
I would love to learn, keep or work with reptiles.

Theyre an amazing animal


----------



## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> I will post a thread there.
> 
> But I'll post on this forum...*Its never too early to learn about DWA*.  And thankyou


And that's the one thing you don't seem to be doing on here! You have had one of the leading herpetologists around posting on here giving you advice, yet nothing seemed to sink in, you just keep regurgitating poorly thought out opinions based upon zero experience and even less knowledge. I posted before that we were born with two eyes, two ears and only one mouth for a reason, that reason is we should look and listen twice as much as we talk............
To preserve what shreds of credibility you may be hanging onto, I would suggest that you refrain from posting on this section of the forum.


----------



## ViperLover

stuartdouglas said:


> And that's the one thing you don't seem to be doing on here! You have had one of the leading herpetologists around posting on here giving you advice, yet nothing seemed to sink in, you just keep regurgitating poorly thought out opinions based upon zero experience and even less knowledge. I posted before that we were born with two eyes, two ears and only one mouth for a reason, that reason is we should look and listen twice as much as we talk............
> To preserve what shreds of credibility you may be hanging onto, I would suggest that you refrain from posting on this section of the forum.


 
Mark O'Shea's advise did sink in - He convinced me that starting with Venomous isn't such a good idea for a Health and Safety reason, Plus many other rasons.

But I'd like to know whether W. Hognoses are ideal.....A few members recomended them.

Maybe a small Burm for husbundry experience....But I don't have the space for a Burn when it gets to a size that it requires proper cageing and heating.

Corn snakes, King snakes, Milk Snakes look ideal for me. The advice was gladly and thankfully appreciated.


----------



## ian14

Any of the species you have mentioned would be good to start off with.
Corns will be the calmest of them, hoggies tend to hiss and lash out, but never with an open mouth, kings can be snappy, milks can be quite skittish.
Do plenty of research, look around, and choose the one that you like. All 4 are very straight forward in their husbandry needs.
Just make sure that whichever species you go for, that it is feeding well on defrost food.


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## Tehanu

ViperLover said:


> Mark O'Shea's advise did sink in - He convinced me that starting with Venomous isn't such a good idea for a Health and Safety reason, Plus many other rasons.
> 
> But I'd like to know whether W. Hognoses are ideal.....A few members recomended them.
> 
> Maybe a small Burm for husbundry experience....But I don't have the space for a Burn when it gets to a size that it requires proper cageing and heating.
> 
> Corn snakes, King snakes, Milk Snakes look ideal for me. The advice was gladly and thankfully appreciated.


Hiya,

In time you'll learn the subtlety of politics and egos, you'll learn when to just listen and not contribute, you'll learn that although Mark O'Shea is the only name you recognise on here, you were given much the same advice by a good number of other variously very experienced, well known and respected hobbyists and professionals. 

General snakes is the place to ask about hognoses and any of the other species you are now mentioning. The words you are now typing seem to say you have listened, but the fact you are still posting much the same things and still with ill informed opinions that will only instigate more misinterpretation says that you haven't yet changed your approach.

It may seem like you are just sparring with invisible venomous keepers on a forum, but some of the people here could give you or withhold from you a career with herps in the future. 
Venomous keeping in the UK is a closeknit community (excepting the isolated solitary keepers who ave no interest in a community). You are now known by name, the bad impressions you might make now will be remembered in years to come. 
In ten years time when you've gained the qualifications you need and the base experience you need, you'll be very disappointed when you discover that the people you reach out to for support, encouragement and experience when the time is right, might have their doubts because you were "that guy" on a forum who tried to play at knowing stuff...

If you're really serious you need to _really_ follow the advice you've heard, don't just repeat it, think ahead to a realistic future and work on that.


----------



## ViperLover

ian14 said:


> Any of the species you have mentioned would be good to start off with.
> Corns will be the calmest of them, hoggies tend to hiss and lash out, but never with an open mouth, kings can be snappy, milks can be quite skittish.
> Do plenty of research, look around, and choose the one that you like. All 4 are very straight forward in their husbandry needs.
> Just make sure that whichever species you go for, that it is feeding well on defrost food.


 
Thankyou for the advise.

I am going to study hard, at college and in my personal time. I am going to learn about these animals, and when I am experienced and ready....And at the age where people will mentor me without having to worry about "A 16 year old being bitten"....I will find a mentor when I have the experience and the knowledge behind me.

My dream is to become a Herpetologist....To study and research reptiles.


----------



## abandonallhope

Well this was an .....interesting thread.... not too sure what to make of it.


----------



## PDR

One thing I would say to James (ViperLover) and any other youngsters out there is that you should be thankful that there is so much help available to you in the form of books, magazines, DVD’s, forums, the internet and reptile clubs. There is just so much information available that all the hard work has been done for you.

I’ve always been surrounded by reptiles since birth and was given my very own snake back in 1969 (aged 6). In those days there was very little information available regarding husbandry, but I had family working at the local Zoo so the Reptile House Staff where always very kind and answered many of my questions and gave me various printed (black & white) info sheets on the various species held in the Reptile House.

Various people helped me back then and that is why I like to try and help people just getting into the hobby........ thing is though, there is no one forcing I or any of the other established venom specialist to get involved and help out on this forum. We do it because we want to help. 

As Seedcantas says, it is worth staying on the good side of people...... especially when your local council in years to come phones me to ask about the suitability of this young guy who wants to keep venomous :hmm:


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> One thing I would say to James (ViperLover) and any other youngsters out there is that you should be thankful that there is so much help available to you in the form of books, magazines, DVD’s, forums, the internet and reptile clubs. There is just so much information available that all the hard work has been done for you.
> 
> I’ve always been surrounded by reptiles since birth and was given my very own snake back in 1969 (aged 6). In those days there was very little information available regarding husbandry, but I had family working at the local Zoo so the Reptile House Staff where always very kind and answered many of my questions and gave me various printed (black & white) info sheets on the various species held in the Reptile House.
> 
> Various people helped me back then and that is why I like to try and help people just getting into the hobby........ thing is though, there is no one forcing I or any of the other established venom specialist to get involved and help out on this forum. We do it because we want to help.
> 
> As Seedcantas says, it is worth staying on the good side of people...... especially when your local council in years to come phones me to ask about the suitability of this young guy who wants to keep venomous :hmm:


 
Thanks Paul.

I sent you a FR regarding Facebook.....Up to you whether or not you wish to accept.

So do you deal with the DWA Lisencing? Recomending people to councils where you think it's a wise idea to issue a DWA Lisence.


----------



## SWMorelia

PDR said:


> *I use the term “handle” in this context to describe *the safe manipulation of venomous snakes with snake-hooks and other restraint tools*. These tools are used to either move the snake from its cage or to the enable the “handler” to restrain the snake prior to physically using his hands to hold the snake behind the head.


I'm no venomous handler, I wouldn't even begin to describe my self as one...
I've never tried it...
But I have tried to handle lively bitey snakes with a hook...
It's not the easiest thing in the world to do, in fact it is such an alien thing to attempt.
It may be worth the OP trying a bitey rat snake or racer before condemning everyone who can do it....
Just a thought


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## Genseric

Well if James is now going forward, his enthusiasm retained, and lust rekindled.. it is a result. The bonus being we have had some great replies here, and some brilliant advice.. indeed it I don't think I have seen so many of our top people on one thread before!


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> Thanks Paul.
> 
> So do you deal with the DWA Lisencing? Recomending people to councils where you think it's a wise idea to issue a DWA Lisence.


Not specifically, it is more a case of councils contacting me for advice regarding Housing, husbandry, antivenom availability and the suitability of certain venomous species. Various factors are taken into account and you can generally get a feel for when a person has a genuine interest in keeping venomous snakes and has done their research verses people who are on an ego trip. 
The list of species that the applicant applies for can be a good indicator...... I recall one person whose list read like the world’s top 10 most venomous: snakes: Inland Tiapans, Black Mambas, kraits, King Cobras etc. In a situation you really have to question the person’s motives.


----------



## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> I am confident I can avoid being bitten.....All I need to start with is observation for body posture......Hands on mentoring can come at the age of 18......so as if I am bitten it will be my own fault.


 i havent read this whole thread as i dont have any knowledge of dwas /hots whatever you want to call them.i ventured over here for a nosey after a comment put up on your thread on snake section.i cannot believe your blaise attitude which i have quoted above.you seem to think 1 bite = antibiotics and a sore patch where ever it happened to get you.WRONG it could well mean your mother burying you because you went head first into a situation you have never handled,couldnt handle and couldnt prevent.im not against anyone keeping hots but only after several years of *normal* snake dealings and deff after tonnes of research.even 18 i feel is too young.if this is the career you have chosen to persue then do it the correct way.college,working with exotics and building your way up in 10-15 years time to cope with the baddies.im not putting you down and saying you shouldnt do it but i deff think you should sit back and think properly about this.this not only could change your life,it could end it.as i have posted a comment im sure you wont like,please dont send me a similar pm as i will report it,at the end of the day we are actually trying to stop you killing yourself,,,good luck in about 10-15 years if you still feel its something you want to do,but for now just please wait and learn xx


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## ViperLover

PDR said:


> I recall one person whose list read like the world’s top 10 most venomous: snakes: Inland Tiapans, Black Mambas, kraits, King Cobras etc.


When something like that happens....Then it's most deffinately an ego trip. I can think of more then just 10 snakes which would interest me....These animals which you listed would be the last snakes I'd like to keep as a beginner DWA Keeper.

I was thinking more on the lines of Southern Copperhead, Pygmy Rattlesnake, Mangrove Snake, False Water Cobra... - These are animals that interest me, but in 10 or so years time when I've learned the basics in handling non-venomous.


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## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> , Mangrove Snake, False Water Cobra... -


you do realise these arent DWA....but in no way am i telling you to get them either


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## hexem

You remind me of a young guy called tariq...I believe he was also very enthusiastic with venemous at you're age and wasn't exactly well received on forums for various thing's he said but i'm pretty sure he grew out of it and is now still around and taken abit more seriously these days. : victory:


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## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> you do realise these arent DWA....but in no way am i telling you to get them either


 
I understand Mangroves and FWC's aren't DWA

But they are still suitable for beginner Venomous keepers who are experienced with snakes. - Bites, I understand are very painful and should only be kept by experienced keepersl.

Also keeping them alive is a challenge unless you know what you're doing....Lots of husbandry experience also required.


----------



## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> I understand Mangroves and FWC's aren't DWA
> 
> But they are still suitable for beginner Venomous keepers who are experienced with snakes. - Bites, I understand are very painful and should only be kept by experienced keepersl.
> 
> *Also keeping them alive is a challenge unless you know what you're doing....Lots of husbandry experience also required*.


B:censor:er me if you aren't doing it again! recycling information and telling it like you actually know something about the subject.


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## mad martin

stuart, I think its more a statement meant for "approval" than recycling


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## ViperLover

stuartdouglas said:


> B:censor:er me if you aren't doing it again! recycling information and telling it like you actually know something about the subject.


I was more asking for an approval.

I don't know this, However I was wanting an approval of somebody who does.

If it's something that is not true, then please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Regards,
James


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## Owzy

ViperLover said:


> I was more asking for an approval.
> 
> I don't know this, However I was wanting an approval of somebody who does.
> 
> If it's something that is not true, then please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Regards,
> James


Just don't write it in the first place unless you put _in my opinion_ or _I have heard _then! 

I doubt anyone would after all you have writen but you never know.... someone might still take your word as fact, and unless it is fact, which so far does not appear to be the case often... it's not going to do much good.


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## niliano_05

right viper lover....

before i say anything i myself do not own any type of snake or DWA but on the other hand i do help look after the following : 1 afrock 2 royals 3 jcp 1 fwc 1 etb. And all i can say is after 2 years of helping out i only handle the royals and jungles. Thw FWC is one pycotic snake imo and the one i help care for wants to bite anything it see's so highly suggest avoiding. Get a corn snake and go up in the levels as it were. I no whats it like i wanted a Iguana as first lizard but after rethinking realised id look a numpty due to not having a clue how to care for it etc. so start off small and grow colelction from there. the DWA list is very very hard to get into mainly because my friend wants to and i have advised not to due to having trouble with her FWC let alone a DWA. You do seem to be arragent imo, at your age a corn snake should be a big deal let alone anything else. If you want any advice i would say sit back learn and start small and go from there, its all good saying "my friend" etc. but you dont have first hand exp with any reptile, so sit back chill out and read and research and expand your knowledge of snakes and reptiles in general.

this is my opinion and dont mean to cause any rift. I dont own a snake but i do help care for some as stated above.


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## salvatoruk

Owzy are corn snakes DWA?


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## Owzy

salvatoruk said:


> Owzy are corn snakes DWA?


I saw one yesterday that will scare the life out of you! 

A real beast it is. :whistling2:


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## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> I understand Mangroves and FWC's aren't DWA
> 
> But they are still suitable for beginner Venomous keepers who are experienced with snakes. - Bites, I understand are very painful and should only be kept by experienced keepersl.
> 
> Also keeping them alive is a challenge unless you know what you're doing....Lots of husbandry experience also required.


 tell you what hun,come and get my jcp out of his viv,i can guarantee that before you blink he will have nailed you but at least you would live to tell the tale,start small and work your way up to the dwas


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## Jczreptiles

moodyblue1969 said:


> tell you what hun,come and get my jcp out of his viv,i can guarantee that before you blink he will have nailed you but at least you would live to tell the tale,start small and work your way up to the dwas


 Maybe if he tryed a snake such as this with a hook and just got some practice in it may well keep him out of A&E when he gets around to getting a DWA.


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## ViperLover

Jczreptiles said:


> Maybe if he tryed a snake such as this with a hook and just got some practice in it may well keep him out of A&E when he gets around to getting a DWA.


 
Are corn snakes fairly ratty?

I wouldn't mind keeping something non-venomous to gain the experience with the hook. As you correctly said....Hook practice, and especially experience in knowing what the animal's going to do could keep me out of A&E.

I'm going Job hunting.....Can't keep snakes....or any animal for that matter without money to feed it.


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## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> Are corn snakes fairly ratty?
> 
> I wouldn't mind keeping something non-venomous to gain the experience with the hook. As you correctly said....Hook practice, and especially experience in knowing what the animal's going to do could keep me out of A&E.
> 
> I'm going Job hunting.....Can't keep snakes....or any animal for that matter without money to feed it.


 ive hesitated over writing this,ive even gone back to snake section twice since i read your last post.but what the heck,here goes. in a matter of hours youve gone from wanting dwas to wanting a corn snake.which is great.so get your bum off the dwa section and onto the snake section for advice and quit pestering these guys til you have a bit of experience with snakes.you can always come on here to read their comments but imo you are really starting to cheese them off. theres lots of ppl on snake section which would help you with getting your first snake but for time being take notice that these guys are getting fed up


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## ViperLover

moodyblue1969 said:


> ive hesitated over writing this,ive even gone back to snake section twice since i read your last post.but what the heck,here goes. in a matter of hours youve gone from wanting dwas to wanting a corn snake.which is great.so get your bum off the dwa section and onto the snake section for advice and quit pestering these guys til you have a bit of experience with snakes.you can always come on here to read their comments but imo you are really starting to cheese them off. theres lots of ppl on snake section which would help you with getting your first snake but for time being take notice that these guys are getting fed up


 
I do want to keep DWA's...

But the only thing that's going to keep me out of hospital is basic experience from Non-Venomous...

I will keep checking and making the occasional post on here....To learn, to gain advice and to hear what the DWA Experts have to say.


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## craig8989

i've spend a few hours reading varous posts from viperlover.... very very entertaining. i dont claim to have much experiance with hots. but the little i have has taught me..... to at least own a non-dwa first. if i was you mate, do what i do...... read and reshearch, dont post where your not wanted.


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## ScottGB

James,
I'd start off like most people who's got into this hobby. Get something nice and tame, and get used to keep it alive. Then if you do ever have to do the more difficult things like assist feeding, you don't have the battle just to get hold of the thing. Mangroves are supposed to be really bad for going off their food. So if you haven't had to assist feed with something like a royal python, your really going to have a battle on your hands. 

Get into the other sides of the hobby like breeding, there is not much more thrilling that finding your first clutch of eggs.

Get loads of different types of snakes, some a bit bitty, my Brazilian rainbow boa can be a really nasty when she wants to be, but on other day she's fine. 
But there's nothing like the first snake that really wants to kill you, that make you think, hmmm maybe i shouldn't have bought this thing. But when it finally did catch me out, I though oh its just bit me, wow that was quick!!! Not oh its bit me that hurts. It also taught me a lesson, when your checking out nose rub you need to properly pin the head down. A lesson you don't want to learn with a FWC or mangrove.

My first hognose i bought totally changed personalities when i got it home and up to temperature, an all i was thinking was if this thing does get hold of me how do i get it off without hurting it. I think its a Mark O'Shea tip of using a credit card that maybe the best way, but i luckily have yet to do it. So then i decided to get a hook and use that with it. The snake that many people have never had a problem with an some have even had as their first snake was the one i started to treat as a fully venomous. But then I maybe a wuss.

I like yourself am interested in keeping some venomous snakes. So I'm going to get a nasty as hell tiger rat snake, an Radiated Rat snake, Both are beautiful an will rip your head off. Treat them as venomous, so always use a hook to handle them, shield to get to the water bowl, use long tongs to feed ect. ONLY IF I can do the usual husbandry without them bitting me then the Will i move on. IF NOT the hole venomous idea is out my mind. Along with all this I'd try an find a mentor, but as yet i haven't found one, HINT HINT. 

I then will move on to Mangrove's and get another FWC (my last one unfortunately died).
FWC are very good, to get used to hook with, mine could be nasty as hell on other occasions i could probably free handle. But through experience from keeping the hognose and Brazilian Rainbow Boa, I could kind of guess its mood. But I always treat it as a guess its mood and used a hook anyway. Cos the more i READ about the possible venom potency the more I didn't want to get bit an I used a hook on it.

Start from the bottom and work your way up its not like starting from the bottom working you way up at work cos its fun!!!

I know I have put it in a long wideing way, but I don't think you would have got the point if i hadn't. I just hope you kinda get the point. Buy a lovely corn snake a enjoy!!!!! oh I may be selling some very nice anytheristic motley corn snakes this coming spring / summer. HINT HINT.


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## naja

I cant believe the nerve of people saying that he shouldnt post on here and that hes not wanted. He has as much rite posting on here as any of you. Other comments have suggested that only the experianced keepers can post on here like they are the high and mighty of the reptile world. I have alot of venomous but wouldnt class myself anymore superior than a boa keeper. Just a diiferant style of keeping


----------



## abandonallhope

ViperLover said:


> I do want to keep DWA's...
> 
> But the only thing that's going to keep me out of hospital is basic experience from Non-Venomous...
> 
> I will keep checking and making the occasional post on here....To learn, to gain advice and to hear what the DWA Experts have to say.


I'd advise you change basic to extensive.

I have average experience with non-venomous and would not even consider anything hot until I was comfortable I could handle something very nasty and probably WC.(Non venomous)

Back when I'd class myself as having only basic experience I'd shite myslef when a corn struck at me. In other words not ready for venomous - not even anywhere near.


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## naja

yes you will learn alot when keeping aggressive non venomous. But when you start keeping hots you start from scratch as far as keeping goes. There is still a big differance in a FWC and an assy forest cobra


----------



## Malc

ViperLover said:


> I do want to keep DWA's...
> 
> But the only thing that's going to keep me out of hospital is basic experience from Non-Venomous...
> 
> I will keep checking and making the occasional post on here....To learn, to gain advice and to hear what the DWA Experts have to say.


Just popped over to this section and I see this is still running !

James, I have a 16 year old son. He has the same arrogance you have, you can't tell him anything as he has the same chip on his shoulder and thinks he's an expert at it all because he's read it somewhere or seen a video of it on youtube !

James, you've never owned a snake, yet you seem to post on what is a very specialist section of this forum. You are just like my son when it comes to being given advice, it goes in one ear and out the other !

I'm going to say what I've (and all the others for that matter) have said before. Aim at getting a cornsnake. Research it's requirement for husbandry, feeding, possibly even breeding. Find a breeder (possibly from this forum) who is selling a yearling corn, ideally with a set up including viv etc and start with that.

It's nice having dreams, and no doubt one day your dream of owning a DWA listed snake will happen, but IMO (and I'm not trying to offend your) you need to do a spot of growing up first. As several posters, including those whom after my 26 years of snake keeping I still look up to and respect for their knowledge and experience have said that you need to work your way up to the point where you are comfortable handling a snake that is untrustworthy or will nail you ant the first opportunity.

On a side note... there have been some very experienced people in the field of herpetology who got careless when handling venomous snakes, especially in the wild. It amazed me that Steve Irwin lasted as long as he did ! - watch any of Mark O'shea's programs and you see he uses sticks and proper grab tools - keeping himself at a safe distance (unlike Irwing who used a twig and grabed the thing by the tail !) - my point is that if some of these guys get nailed and die from the bite and that's after decades of experience, then what chance would you stand.

You've already mentioned you have a sibling brother (i think) - I'm sure he wouldn't want to lose his brother because you made a simple mistake and dropped your guard one day... same way as for all his faults I don't think I could carry on living if I lost my son, and I'm sure your mum and dad would feel the same way....

Sorry for the long ranting post.... bottom line is get a corn snake or two, get the experience of keeping and breeding them, then move on to something a bit more feisty (seems a carpet python might be the ideal suggestion) and then when you have the cash, the room and the money, move on to a DWA listed snake, and one where it's not too deadly if you ever got tagged (if there is such a thing !) - I'm also sure that if you followed this advice you would be more welcome within the community when you did reach that time.


----------



## StevetheSnake

Very well said Malc


----------



## SWMorelia

Malc said:


> . bottom line is get a corn snake or two, get the experience of keeping and breeding them, then move on to something a bit more feisty (*seems a carpet python might be the ideal suggestion*) and then when you have the cash, the room and the money, move on to a DWA listed snake, .


I have lots of carpets/Morelia, and they are not the thing to *train up to dwa* with...
They are too predictable IMO.... You would only learn about carpets from them... LOL
Plus they only tend to be feisty when young....


----------



## moodyblue1969

SW-morelia said:


> I have lots of carpets/Morelia, and they are not the thing to *train up to dwa* with...
> They are too predictable IMO.... You would only learn about carpets from them... LOL
> Plus they only tend to be feisty when young....


 agreed,my jcp is young (18 months,never been handled) but he will grow out of it,i think thats why a carpet was suggested though because i posted mine would nail him : victory:


----------



## SWMorelia

moodyblue1969 said:


> agreed,my jcp is young (18 months,never been handled) but he will grow out of it,i think thats why a carpet was suggested though because i posted mine would nail him : victory:


Who would of thought that carpets would be discussed on a DWA forum... LOL
That aside..... Sssthistooo (?Sp) is selling a mental Radiated... Though she would probably want it to go to a genuine keeper and not for some one to practice with....


----------



## ViperLover

ScottGB said:


> James,
> I'd start off like most people who's got into this hobby. Get something nice and tame, and get used to keep it alive. Then if you do ever have to do the more difficult things like assist feeding, you don't have the battle just to get hold of the thing. Mangroves are supposed to be really bad for going off their food. So if you haven't had to assist feed with something like a royal python, your really going to have a battle on your hands.
> 
> Get into the other sides of the hobby like breeding, there is not much more thrilling that finding your first clutch of eggs.
> 
> Get loads of different types of snakes, some a bit bitty, my Brazilian rainbow boa can be a really nasty when she wants to be, but on other day she's fine.
> But there's nothing like the first snake that really wants to kill you, that make you think, hmmm maybe i shouldn't have bought this thing. But when it finally did catch me out, I though oh its just bit me, wow that was quick!!! Not oh its bit me that hurts. It also taught me a lesson, when your checking out nose rub you need to properly pin the head down. A lesson you don't want to learn with a FWC or mangrove.
> 
> My first hognose i bought totally changed personalities when i got it home and up to temperature, an all i was thinking was if this thing does get hold of me how do i get it off without hurting it. I think its a Mark O'Shea tip of using a credit card that maybe the best way, but i luckily have yet to do it. So then i decided to get a hook and use that with it. The snake that many people have never had a problem with an some have even had as their first snake was the one i started to treat as a fully venomous. But then I maybe a wuss.
> 
> I like yourself am interested in keeping some venomous snakes. So I'm going to get a nasty as hell tiger rat snake, an Radiated Rat snake, Both are beautiful an will rip your head off. Treat them as venomous, so always use a hook to handle them, shield to get to the water bowl, use long tongs to feed ect. ONLY IF I can do the usual husbandry without them bitting me then the Will i move on. IF NOT the hole venomous idea is out my mind. Along with all this I'd try an find a mentor, but as yet i haven't found one, HINT HINT.
> 
> I then will move on to Mangrove's and get another FWC (my last one unfortunately died).
> FWC are very good, to get used to hook with, mine could be nasty as hell on other occasions i could probably free handle. But through experience from keeping the hognose and Brazilian Rainbow Boa, I could kind of guess its mood. But I always treat it as a guess its mood and used a hook anyway. Cos the more i READ about the possible venom potency the more I didn't want to get bit an I used a hook on it.
> 
> Start from the bottom and work your way up its not like starting from the bottom working you way up at work cos its fun!!!
> 
> I know I have put it in a long wideing way, but I don't think you would have got the point if i hadn't. I just hope you kinda get the point. Buy a lovely corn snake a enjoy!!!!! oh I may be selling some very nice anytheristic motley corn snakes this coming spring / summer. HINT HINT.


Cheers for the advise Scott!!

I want to start from the bottom tbh, After reading the many negetive, and positive posts and especially that of Mark O'Shea, I have realised it is better to learn. As you said, Learning to pin a snake by the head could be rather unpleasant with a Mangrove or a FWC.

Please keep me informed on the Corn Snakes....I'd be very interested.Has the female already layed the clutch? Or are you yet to breed.

Breeding is something I want to get into....Morphing has interested me for a while, and is also worth that of a small fortune if you get good at it, and build a reputation for yourself. Have you seen the Ghost Ball Python Morphs? They look nice!


----------



## ViperLover

_Comment below_


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> On a side note... there have been some very experienced people in the field of herpetology who got careless when handling venomous snakes, especially in the wild. It amazed me that Steve Irwin lasted as long as he did ! - watch any of Mark O'shea's programs and you see he uses sticks and proper grab tools - keeping himself at a safe distance (unlike Irwing who used a twig and grabed the thing by the tail !) - my point is that if some of these guys get nailed and die from the bite and that's after decades of experience, then what chance would you stand.
> 
> You've already mentioned you have a sibling brother (i think) - I'm sure he wouldn't want to lose his brother because you made a simple mistake and dropped your guard one day... same way as for all his faults I don't think I could carry on living if I lost my son, and I'm sure your mum and dad would feel the same way....


 
Those two paragraphs hit home a bit...Steve Irwin was my idle, although what he did was extremely dangerous and I only ever saw him use a professional Snake Hook once! I, too was suprised he lived so long and after all those years of wrangling Venomous snakes, he never got tagged once. The morning when his death was released on the news, I was woken up by my mum at 7:30, she said that I had better go and watch the Television because something had happened to Steve. As soon as I saw the headlines, I immediately thought two things....A snake envenomation, or one of his "Big Blokes" had nailed him. I was shocked to hear it was an effing stingray! And still am to this day....Steve's death proves that ALL animals are un-predictable, even the animals we see as docile and conditioned to tollerate our presence.....can still be dangerous at less then a seconds notice. I am starting to head the advice about Non-Vens and thinking that moving up is the best option.

Also, I have 4 young sisters.....The youngest two are a month old. Theyre Twins. I would like to see them grow up, and atleast make a name for thierselves so that itself holds me back from obtaining a DWA listed reptile untill I have the basic experience.


----------



## ViperLover

ViperLover said:


> Steve Irwin was my idle, although what he did was extremely dangerous and I only ever saw him use a professional Snake Hook once!


 
Although....He ALWAYS mentioned, whenever he did such things never to try it yourself.

It still doesn't substitute for doing it in the first place though IMO. - It gave quite a few people big heads, just because he managed to last nearly 40 years doing this, Someone else may not even last 5 minutes.


----------



## PDR

An aggressive boid or colubrid may give you a little practise in the use of a snake hook, but they are no substitute for working with a dangerously venomous snake.
Hooking, pining and then holding a venomous snake for the first time is something you tend never to forget. It is a psychological and physical hurdle you have to overcome. It is not something to be taken lightly.
I have heard of various people in the past using venomoid snakes to train new snake handlers without out telling them that the snake had been surgically altered in an effort to make them “safe”.


----------



## WW**

Steve Irwin's death is actually very instructive: he got away with amazing stunts when he was working with animals he knew extremely well. He died doing something seemingly much less dangerous with an animal he wasn't so familiar with. 

The lesson should be obvious...


----------



## leecb0

*this is the 200th post yay*


----------



## ViperLover

leecb0 said:


> *this is the 200th post yay*


 
LOL, Lee! 201


----------



## PDR

As far as I know, Steve used snake hooks routinely away from the cameras.... his boy-scout improvised branches used as snake hooks was something the programme makers wanted early on.
You have to realise a large proportion of what appear in TV documentaries is staged... a good number of snakes Steve “found” out in the bush where his own snakes that had been place in position beforehand.


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> Breeding is something I want to get into....*Morphing has interested me for a while, and is also worth that of a small fortune if you get good at it*, and build a reputation for yourself. Have you seen the Ghost Ball Python Morphs? They look nice!


This statement has summed up your lack of experience in the snake world for me....
I don't think anyone who is involved in breeding will agree with this statement of yours...
How many times have I read about newbs thinking they can get a good pair and give up work off the back of it....
You need to go away and do extensive research and not come out with things that are romantic delusions...


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> As far as I know, Steve used snake hooks routinely away from the cameras.... his boy-scout improvised branches used as snake hooks was something the programme makers wanted early on.
> You have to realise a large proportion of what appear in TV documentaries is staged... a good number of snakes Steve “found” out in the bush where his own snakes that had been place in position beforehand.


 
Indeed they were, these snakes he used were the animals that tollerated him the most. The King Brown used in his film, had been featured in several of his Documentaries. 

The free handling, was indeed for the camera....The Americans like this sort of thing, and he was regarded in the US as being a nutter, and in Auz, respected for what he did.....Conversation and admiration. I respected him for everything he ever accomplished....And I still plan to one day visit his Zoo and place some flowers on his memorial.

While working at the Zoo's snakeroom, snake hooks were a must. He would've lost his lisence free handling a venomous animal. The Australians are very strict on things like this.


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> This statement has summed up your lack of experience in the snake world for me....
> I don't think anyone who is involved in breeding will agree with this statement of yours...
> How many times have I read about newbs thinking they can get a good pair and give up work off the back of it....
> You need to go away and do extensive research and not come out with things that are romantic delusions...


 
A small fortune being a couple of hundred quid here and there.

NO WAY would I give up a full time job, hoping to live off the sales of a pretty looking animal. This is foolish and doing this would soon end up in the loss of all one's animals as you woiuldn't be abled to afford to keep them.


----------



## carpy

ViperLover said:


> Indeed they were, these snakes he used were the animals that tollerated him the most. The King Brown used in his film, had been featured in several of his Documentaries.
> 
> The free handling, was indeed for the camera....The Americans like this sort of thing, and he was regarded in the US as being a nutter, and in Auz, respected for what he did.....Conversation and admiration. I respected him for everything he ever accomplished....And I still plan to one day visit his Zoo and place some flowers on his memorial.
> 
> While working at the Zoo's snakeroom, snake hooks were a must. He would've lost his lisence free handling a venomous animal. The Australians are very strict on things like this.


you need to learn to listen and not be as gobby as you are fella, alot of people on this forum have alot of experience handling venomous snakes, indeed i have a small amount of experience also, albeit not in the uk. you should be listening to these people on here, many of them are a fantastic resource. you seem to ask a question, then a few pages down the line know all the answers

ps bloody good thing this isnt on another forum i frequent because you would have been ripped to utter sh*ts by about your 3rd post - they have already been very tolerant


----------



## moodyblue1969

james,have you ever watched coronation street,cos you remind me of roy cropper


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> A small fortune being a couple of hundred quid here and there.


lol....mikes point still stands


----------



## ViperLover

carpy said:


> you need to learn to listen and not be as gobby as you are fella, alot of people on this forum have alot of experience handling venomous snakes, indeed i have a small amount of experience also, albeit not in the uk. you should be listening to these people on here, many of them are a fantastic resource. you seem to ask a question, then a few pages down the line know all the answers
> 
> ps bloody good thing this isnt on another forum i frequent because you would have been ripped to utter sh*ts by about your 3rd post - they have already been very tolerant


 
What forum is this? I'll have a read at the threads there....I was reading stuff on here about a month before i signed up.


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> A small fortune being a couple of hundred quid here and there.
> 
> NO WAY would I give up a full time job, hoping to live off the sales of a pretty looking animal. This is foolish and doing this would soon end up in the loss of all one's animals as you woiuldn't be abled to afford to keep them.


You missed the point



carpy said:


> ps bloody good thing this isnt on another forum i frequent because you would have been ripped to utter sh*ts by about your 3rd post - they have already been very tolerant


PM me that forum: victory:



moodyblue1969 said:


> james,have you ever watched coronation street,cos you remind me of roy cropper


Thats not fair on Roy.... He comes across as a nobhead because he is thoughtful:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Bothropes.......:Na_Na_Na_Na::whistling2:: victory:



wildlifewarrior said:


> lol....mikes point still stands


He missed the point....
The point being.... There are so many misconceptions amongst non exotic keepers....
Exotics being anything other than a dog or a cat...... LOL
Dog or cat, non pedigree I may add.......


----------



## StevetheSnake

You talk about pinning the snake behind the head, please tell me you are not planning on doing this with your first snake? A small corn (or any other snake for that matter) would be put through so much unneeded stress from this. You are literally _years _away from even thinking about pinning a snake like such. 

You are still talking as if what you are saying is fact. I was a teenager once and was a bit stubborn at times but you take the biscuit. You've unfortunately set a precedent for yourself and a high majority of the users in here will not take you seriously.


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> *Indeed they were*, these snakes he used were the animals that tollerated him the most. The King Brown used in his film, had been featured in several of his Documentaries.
> 
> *The free handling, was indeed for the camera*....The Americans like this sort of thing, and he was regarded in the US as being a nutter, and in Auz, respected for what he did.....Conversation and admiration. I respected him for everything he ever accomplished....And I still plan to one day visit his Zoo and place some flowers on his memorial.
> 
> While working at the Zoo's snakeroom, snake hooks were a must. He would've lost his lisence free handling a venomous animal. The Australians are very strict on things like this.


James, I think it is replies like this that irritate people. Your answers are somewhat patronising.

Let me explain.... I said “*a*_*s far as I know*, Steve used snake hooks routinely away from the cameras”. __I could have said “I* know for a fact*....” but I did not want to come across as an arrogant know it all, hence my choice of “*as far as I know”.* _
_You are telling me (and others) something I already know in a way that comes across as though you are the more experienced and knowledgeable older person in the discussion. _

_The fact is that I have done a lot of film work for a wide range of companies and I was doing film work before you were born. I also worked on one of Steve Irwin’s programmes, Africa’s Deadliest snakes (July 2000). The black mamba that enters the African hut was one of mine and was filmed at LSTM by Tony Phelps (who also did the set design). I had to manoeuvre the snake without hooks and hold him by the rear body very gently while he fed on a freshly killed brown mouse._

_Rather than come out with “_Indeed they were, these snakes...... or the free handling, was indeed for the camera....” you might be better off considering phrases like “yes I did hear that” or “I remember reading that somewhere” etc. etc. anything that is a less patronising tone.

You are only reading and re-hashing information without any experience of working with snakes or having a practical understanding of venomous snakes or their venom and its effects.

There are a good number of very experienced people here who have been there, done it and got the t-shirt and they are not going to take kindly to being talked down to by a total novice.


----------



## ViperLover

StevetheSnake said:


> You talk about pinning the snake behind the head, please tell me you are not planning on doing this with your first snake? A small corn (or any other snake for that matter) would be put through so much unneeded stress from this. You are literally _years _away from even thinking about pinning a snake like such.
> 
> You are still talking as if what you are saying is fact. I was a teenager once and was a bit stubborn at times but you take the biscuit. You've unfortunately set a precedent for yourself and a high majority of the users in here will not take you seriously.


 
Steve, I have no plans for doing this. Why put un-needed stress on the animal?

I would only attempt such things with experience. If the animal needs attention, then I shall take it to a Vet who is higher qualified then myself.


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> _The fact is that I have done a lot of film work for a wide range of companies and I was doing film work before you were born. I also worked on one of Steve Irwin’s programmes, Africa’s Deadliest snakes (July 2000). The black mamba that enters the African hut was one of mine and was filmed at LSTM by Tony Phelps (who also did the set design). I had to manoeuvre the snake without hooks and hold him by the rear body very gently while he fed on a freshly killed brown mouse._


 
I remember that Episode...

Was that the one where the so called "House rescue" came into play?

Steve was holding the animal...It looked twice as long as he was tall.

Is the animal still alive? How is it doing?


----------



## StevetheSnake

You've totally ignored the point of PDR's post. Tell me, have your parents even given you the go ahead to have a snake in the family home?


----------



## Malc

Even my son knows when to quit winding people up.... this guy must be a troll !


----------



## ViperLover

StevetheSnake said:


> You've totally ignored the point of PDR's post. Tell me, have your parents even given you the go ahead to have a snake in the family home?


 
I haven't ignored his post AT ALL....I have re-read it twice and it is very good information. Cheers for the heads up Paul.

I am currently talking to my mum to see if she'll let me and trust me with responsibilitie


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> Even my son knows when to quit winding people up.... this guy must be a troll !


 
I am not trying to irritate anybody.

What is a troll?


----------



## Grond

Well, this has been an entertaining read! I don't think I've ever seen so much good advice so blatently disregarded. :bash:

I'm not even sure I'd like to sell him one of my corns........


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> What is a troll?


Don't take the piss..... I'm 51 and I know what they are...... Your 16, you probably got a super cool way to say it.....


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> Don't take the piss..... I'm 51 and I know what they are...... Your 16, you probably got a super cool way to say it.....


 
No seriously....What do you regaurd as being a "Troll"? Ive never heard the expression before


----------



## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> As you said, Learning to pin a snake by the head could be rather unpleasant with a Mangrove or a FWC.
> 
> Please keep me informed on the Corn Snakes....


 so if you are not going to be practising pinning a mangrove or fwc i can only assume you was referring to pinning a corn


StevetheSnake said:


> You talk about pinning the snake behind the head, please tell me you are not planning on doing this with your first snake? A small corn (or any other snake for that matter) would be put through so much unneeded stress from this.





ViperLover said:


> Steve, I have no plans for doing this. Why put un-needed stress on the animal?


 you have almost worded steves statement exactly :gasp: this is why the others are getting upset with you.its great that you have an interest in these animals and wish to learn.but you cannot keep quoting others almost word for word.i do wish you well in learning about dwas but i dont think you are anywhere near ready,you should go back to the general snake section,learn the basic husbandry,get your first corn,boa or whatever and once you have a bit more experience under your belt then come back to this section and talk about what youve learnt


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> No seriously....What do you regaurd as being a "Troll"? Ive never heard the expression before


HERE
ten words or more


----------



## ViperLover

moodyblue1969 said:


> so if you are not going to be practising pinning a mangrove or fwc i can only assume you was referring to pinning a corn
> 
> 
> 
> you have almost worded steves statement exactly :gasp: this is why the others are getting upset with you.its great that you have an interest in these animals and wish to learn.but you cannot keep quoting others almost word for word.i do wish you well in learning about dwas but i dont think you are anywhere near ready,you should go back to the general snake section,learn the basic husbandry,get your first corn,boa or whatever and once you have a bit more experience under your belt then come back to this section and talk about what youve learnt


 
I wasn't exactly re-wording it....I was more saying....WHY would I WANT TO put added stress on the animal for NO REASON? Its cruel...Just doing stuff for the hell of it is cruel...I would NEVER do it unless I had no other option....And even then I would seek advice prier to doing so. I would not risk killing an animal for the sake of doing so, just to be abled to say "Yes, I've done this..."


----------



## Grond

ViperLover said:


> I would not risk killing an animal for the sake of doing so, just to be abled to say "Yes, I've done this..."


Are you related to Boidae?


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> HERE
> ten words or more


 
Curtisy of Wikipedia:
"Do not feed the trolls" and its abbreviation _DNFTT_ redirect here. For the Wikimedia essay, see "What is a troll?".
In Internet slang, a *troll* is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]



I have no intent on annoying people for the hell of it. I do not do it purposely.


----------



## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> I wasn't exactly re-wording it....I was more saying....WHY would I WANT TO put added stress on the animal for NO REASON? Its cruel...Just doing stuff for the hell of it is cruel...I would NEVER do it unless I had no other option....And even then I would seek advice prier to doing so. I would not risk killing an animal for the sake of doing so, just to be abled to say "Yes, I've done this..."


 im not saying you would pin a corn,im saying its proof that you are quoting others immediately after they have posted


----------



## ViperLover

Grond said:


> Are you related to Boidae?


 
What do you mean?


----------



## moodyblue1969

Grond said:


> Are you related to Boidae?


 flipping twin brothers prob :devil:


----------



## Grond

ViperLover said:


> What do you mean?


You're responses and ignoring of advice are so weird I just wondered!

Don't worry about it.


----------



## StevetheSnake

You as good as said you would do it to a corn because doing it with a FWC or Mangrove would be 'rather unpleasant'. I might get flamed for saying this, but i don't think you should get any snake whatsoever until you grow up a little. You have disregarded so much information in here and have continued your extremely annoying posts and down right ignorance. Some of the guys who have tried to reason with you have the authority to do so because of their experience, but you have shown it has went in one ear and out the other. I hope to god this is just a phase, for any animal's sake.


----------



## ViperLover

Grond said:


> You're responses and ignoring of advice are so weird I just wondered!
> 
> Don't worry about it.


 
I am not ignoreing any advice mate.

I have taken all advice greatly and I have learned, that from my original post I was biteing off more then I could physically chew.

I am going to start from the bottom, and work my way up. But there is still a lot of time to learn....Which I am doing so.


----------



## Grond

StevetheSnake said:


> but i don't think you should get any snake whatsoever until you grow up a little.


That was my sentiment a few posts back......


----------



## ViperLover

StevetheSnake said:


> *You as good as said you would do it to a corn because doing it with a FWC or Mangrove would be 'rather unpleasant'. *I might get flamed for saying this, but i don't think you should get any snake whatsoever until you grow up a little. You have disregarded so much information in here and have continued your extremely annoying posts and down right ignorance. Some of the guys who have tried to reason with you have the authority to do so because of their experience, but you have shown it has went in one ear and out the other. I hope to god this is just a phase, for any animal's sake.


I meant as in....The experience side of things. A guy meantioned that learning with venomous is dangerous....And it would be better, and a lot safer to learn how to pin a non-venomous snake, for example forcefeeding then a venomous one. I wasn't saying that I had intentions to do so for the sheer fun of it, but if it ever needed to be done...Learning would be done in safety.


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> I am not ignoreing any advice mate.
> 
> I have taken all advice greatly and I have learned, that from my original post I was biteing off more then I could physically chew.
> 
> I am going to start from the bottom, and work my way up. But there is still a lot of time to learn....Which I am doing so.


So basically you know that DWA is a bit beyond you.... So a more realistic snake is more reasonable..... So posting anymore on this part of the forum is redundant.... Ergo... I need a corn and they ain't got no venom..... So the snake section is where I need to be.... :whistling2:
And locking this thread would be the best thing to do.....:no1:


----------



## StevetheSnake

ViperLover said:


> I meant as in....The experience side of things. A guy meantioned that learning with venomous is dangerous....And it would be better, and a lot safer to learn how to pin a non-venomous snake, for example forcefeeding then a venomous one. I wasn't saying that I had intentions to do so for the sheer fun of it, but if it ever needed to be done...Learning would be done in safety.


There will never need to be a time when YOU need to pin a corn by the back of the head. It is way OTT. You see, you are displaying even more that you don't have a clue about anything snake related. How much reading have you actually done on the likes of king snakes, corns, rats etc? Because all your posts since your 'epiphany' have been telling us matter of factly venemous related 'facts'. I really hope your parents do the right thing and refuse you the chance to own a snake anytime soon.


----------



## SWMorelia

StevetheSnake said:


> There will never need to be a time when YOU need to pin a corn by the back of the head. It is way OTT. You see, you are displaying even more that you don't have a clue about anything snake related. How much reading have you actually done on the likes of king snakes, corns, rats etc? Because all your posts since your 'epiphany' have been telling us matter of factly venemous related 'facts'. I really hope your parents do the right thing and refuse you the chance to own a snake anytime soon.


Or is it Ellan Bellend and the antis looking for reasons to stop us...
OK I've had one or two beverages......
But things like this seem to contrived for me.......
This seems too surreal to be a random ......
So just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get us......:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## StevetheSnake

SW-Moriela, put the tinfoil hat back on, they can't intercept your brain waves that way :lol2:


----------



## SWMorelia

StevetheSnake said:


> SW-Moriela, put the tinfoil hat back on, they can't intercept your brain waves that way :lol2:


That tin foil hat helps me focus......
Something isn't right with these posts..... They are sounding baited....


----------



## ViperLover

I have just been re-reading the posts Mark O'Shea, and a few other people had written.

I appreciate the advice....And Id like to thank everybody who took the time to advise me.

By the way Steve....What do you do when you need to forcefeed the animal? Thats what I was getting at.


----------



## bothrops

Fascinating thread, and nice to see some valuable knowledge and experience contributing.

I have nothing to add really, but just needed to do this.....




SW-morelia said:


> Thats not fair on Roy.... He comes across as a nobhead because he is thoughtful:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> Bothropes.......:Na_Na_Na_Na::whistling2:: victory:


 
....Oi - watch it you! It's '*k*nobhead' and there is no 'e' in Bothrops. :2thumb::whistling2:



Cheers

Andy


----------



## SWMorelia

bothrops said:


> Fascinating thread, and nice to see some valuable knowledge and experience contributing.
> 
> I have nothing to add really, but just needed to do this.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....Oi - watch it you! It's '*k*nobhead' and there is no 'e' in Bothrops. :2thumb::whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


I thought the 'E' might be too much........ Sorry... ... LOL


----------



## ViperLover

bothrops said:


> Fascinating thread, and nice to see some valuable knowledge and experience contributing.
> 
> I have nothing to add really, but just needed to do this.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....Oi - watch it you! It's '*k*nobhead' and there is no 'e' in Bothrops. :2thumb::whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


 
That was comical to say the least...lol


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> By the way Steve....What do you do when you need to forcefeed the animal? Thats what I was getting at.


why the hell would you need to pin a corn snake down to force feed it?
Generally if your keeping your corn correctly and its a reliable feeder like pretty much all are then you wont need to force feed it....plus that is a last resort.

it does seem like you ask questions then kind of answer them aswell even if someone very experinced on here has already answered them

I completely agree with what others have said on here about getting years of experince before you get into hots....but at the same time get non venomous snakes your genunely interested in, not just because you have to. I have seen you mention a few times that your interested in this and that because there snappy...why does a snake have to be snappy for you to want it. I have some real mean snakes ,but i never handle my snakes as i dont see the point, but at the same time i have some extremely docile ones that dont even have elasticated jaws so unable to bite....i keep them because i enjoy keeping them, not because i feel i must.

I think you need to go and have a long think about what fuels your passion for reptiles, and by that i mean something non-venomous


----------



## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> why the hell would you need to pin a corn snake down to force feed it?
> Generally if your keeping your corn correctly and its a reliable feeder like pretty much all are then you wont need to force feed it....plus that is a last resort.
> 
> it does seem like you ask questions then kind of answer them aswell even if someone very experinced on here has already answered them
> 
> I completely agree with what others have said on here about getting years of experince before you get into hots....but at the same time get non venomous snakes your genunely interested in, not just because you have to. I have seen you mention a few times that your interested in this and that because there snappy...why does a snake have to be snappy for you to want it. I have some real mean snakes ,but i never handle my snakes as i dont see the point, but at the same time i have some extremely docile ones that dont even have elasticated jaws so unable to bite....i keep them because i enjoy keeping them, not because i feel i must.
> 
> I think you need to go and have a long think about what fuels your passion for reptiles, and by that i mean something non-venomous


 
I love all Reptiles. 

I think they're facinating creatures and some of which are attractive in colourations and patterns, aswell as interesting in their daily routines.

I could keep any snake.....I'd be happy with any snake, or any reptile for that instance......Actually, having said that. I love ALL animals.

Fiesty snakes? To gain hook experience, and getting to have an idea of what the animal intends to do and when it intends to do it. And as I have been informed, no way will the keeper get it right every time.

But it'd be ljumping out of the pot, and into the fire wanting to keep an animal out of my league and experience level. Which is probably why Venomous isn't such a good option for a reptile newbie....As stated above by a few members.


----------



## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> why the hell would you need to pin a corn snake down to force feed it?
> Generally if your keeping your corn correctly and its a reliable feeder like pretty much all are then you wont need to force feed it....plus that is a last resort.
> 
> it does seem like you ask questions then kind of answer them aswell even if someone very experinced on here has already answered them
> 
> I completely agree with what others have said on here about getting years of experince before you get into hots....but at the same time get non venomous snakes your genunely interested in, not just because you have to. I have seen you mention a few times that your interested in this and that because there snappy...why does a snake have to be snappy for you to want it. I have some real mean snakes ,but i never handle my snakes as i dont see the point, but at the same time i have some extremely docile ones that dont even have elasticated jaws so unable to bite....i keep them because i enjoy keeping them, not because i feel i must.
> 
> *I think you need to go and have a long think about what fuels your passion for reptiles, and by that i mean something non-venomous*


Funny that..... Me and VL just had a long PM on that very subject.....


----------



## Chris_Law

*Hmmm....*

Greetings list,

I hope I can be forgiven for this intrusion. I'm not from the UK, from the U.S. rather. I was browsing out of curiosity simply because James (ViperLover) made mention of some advice he was given. He's made contact with a group of us venomous keepers and handlers via facebook, over a period of time. While many of us called him out on a number of occasions due to some of his bull talk and Walter Mitty type comments and story fabrications, many of us have noticed some change in his mindframe. 
He can be quite annoying and persistent, and often thinks that professionals have nothing better to do than sitting around replying to his plethora of questions. However....

James, some sound advice has been given to you on this list. I don't necessarily agree with the method in which it might've been given at moments, but a good portion is relatively truthful. 

As far as "not keeping ANY snake"...I think that might be pushing it just a tad. I do feel that "pinning" a cornsnake is rather foolish, pointless, and unnecessary. Although, I understand why you want to attempt it (you think it will be "practice"). Keep in mind that pinning a venomous reptile is only necessary during a few occasions. Milking, physical examination of the mouth area in the event of an injury, or to possibly assist remove an eyecap that failed to shed properly. Placing the cornsnake into a stressful situation simply for "practice", I feel is inappropriate. Those keeping venomous in a private collection rarely have to pin a venomous snake. It is only done when necessary due to the extreme stress it can place on the snake. 

The boy has to start somewhere. Obviously, books are important, but as many of us long term keepers and handlers know, what you read in books is only honed by what you experience first hand. I believe that with some sound advice, reading, and possibly a good beginner snake...James can be well on his way. Does that stop him from annoying people? Not necessarily. But to tell him that he can't post on this forum simply because he's trying to learn, I feel is simply being a bit of an ass. You can, however, (and might have already) recommend that he search through this forum's archives before posting questions. This would help eliminate some of his very beginner questions, but would leave it open for his communication with those local to him and might be able to offer some advice and knowledge. 
Don't forget that those "up and coming" keepers are going to be the future for this industry. We want to fuel them with the appropriate attitude and means to be a success in this industry...not turn them off to the point that they go against everyone to simply spite them, thus causing trouble for your local industry. Show him the right way, and I'm sure with his passion that he'll be an asset at a later time. Push him away, he could possibly be your later detriment.

This is only my opinion.

My best to all,

Chris


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> I love all Reptiles.
> 
> I think they're facinating creatures and some of which are attractive in colourations and patterns, aswell as interesting in their daily routines.
> 
> I could keep any snake.....I'd be happy with any snake, or any reptile for that instance......Actually, having said that. I love ALL animals.
> 
> Fiesty snakes? To gain hook experience, and getting to have an idea of what the animal intends to do and when it intends to do it. And as I have been informed, no way will the keeper get it right every time.
> 
> But it'd be ljumping out of the pot, and into the fire wanting to keep an animal out of my league and experience level. Which is probably why Venomous isn't such a good option for a reptile newbie....As stated above by a few members.


I understand that but as mentioned before you do need many years of experince....you need confidence, and build up on that, no matter what you say if i give you a hissing yellow rat or a fiesty amazon tree boas you wouldnt no how to approach it and move it. and your not going to build up on confidence by keeping a bitey snake that your unsure about, its like saying your going to learn to drive at banger racing. You need to get confidence in something that ISNT going to bite you...the you work up.

I have to clean my scrub pythons out on a weekly basis, my largest being a 13ft wc female who is nasty as hell, i move her using 2 hooks....she strikes fast and hard, and is extremely powerful....but in no way would i deal with some of the snakes these guys on here keep just because i have hook experince with large aboreal boids.

Just enjoy keeping snakes....learn as you go....do you no how to treat RI in a snake? do you no how to remove retained eyecaps, do you no how to get a prolasped hemipenes back into a snake....because you will need to learn these things...and not all reptile vets will treat DWA snakes so you may need to learn how to do this your self one day....so its best to pick up these methods and tips along the way.


----------



## Jczreptiles

First time keepers often post on here worried about picking up a fiesty non-venomous smaller snake and I often wander how a terrified newbie is going to meet its needs if they are scared to go near it but they gety over the getting bitten stage, A first timer with a DWA with no snake experience is abit frightening to me how are they going to get used to it?


----------



## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> I understand that but as mentioned before you do need many years of experince....you need confidence, and build up on that, no matter what you say if i give you a hissing yellow rat or a fiesty amazon tree boas you wouldnt no how to approach it and move it. and your not going to build up on confidence by keeping a bitey snake that your unsure about, its like saying your going to learn to drive at banger racing. You need to get confidence in something that ISNT going to bite you...the you work up.
> 
> 
> I have to clean my scrub pythons out on a weekly basis, my largest being a 13ft wc female who is nasty as hell, i move her using 2 hooks....she strikes fast and hard, and is extremely powerful....but in no way would i deal with some of the snakes these guys on here keep just because i have hook experince with large aboreal boids.
> 
> Just enjoy keeping snakes....learn as you go....do you no how to treat RI in a snake? do you no how to remove retained eyecaps, do you no how to get a prolasped hemipenes back into a snake....because you will need to learn these things...and not all reptile vets will treat DWA snakes so you may need to learn how to do this your self one day....so its best to pick up these methods and tips along the way.


 This is the top and the bottom of it James....
In a nut shell....
I couldnt of put it better, Gaylord..... :notworthy:


----------



## ViperLover

*Thanks for stopping by, Chris!*



Chris_Law said:


> Greetings list,
> 
> I hope I can be forgiven for this intrusion. I'm not from the UK, from the U.S. rather. I was browsing out of curiosity simply because James (ViperLover) made mention of some advice he was given. He's made contact with a group of us venomous keepers and handlers via facebook, over a period of time. While many of us called him out on a number of occasions due to some of his bull talk and Walter Mitty type comments and story fabrications, many of us have noticed some change in his mindframe.
> He can be quite annoying and persistent, and often thinks that professionals have nothing better to do than sitting around replying to his plethora of questions. However....
> 
> James, some sound advice has been given to you on this list. I don't necessarily agree with the method in which it might've been given at moments, but a good portion is relatively truthful.
> 
> As far as "not keeping ANY snake"...I think that might be pushing it just a tad. I do feel that "pinning" a cornsnake is rather foolish, pointless, and unnecessary. Although, I understand why you want to attempt it (you think it will be "practice"). Keep in mind that pinning a venomous reptile is only necessary during a few occasions. Milking, physical examination of the mouth area in the event of an injury, or to possibly assist remove an eyecap that failed to shed properly. Placing the cornsnake into a stressful situation simply for "practice", I feel is inappropriate. Those keeping venomous in a private collection rarely have to pin a venomous snake. It is only done when necessary due to the extreme stress it can place on the snake.
> 
> The boy has to start somewhere. Obviously, books are important, but as many of us long term keepers and handlers know, what you read in books is only honed by what you experience first hand. I believe that with some sound advice, reading, and possibly a good beginner snake...James can be well on his way. Does that stop him from annoying people? Not necessarily. But to tell him that he can't post on this forum simply because he's trying to learn, I feel is simply being a bit of an ass. You can, however, (and might have already) recommend that he search through this forum's archives before posting questions. This would help eliminate some of his very beginner questions, but would leave it open for his communication with those local to him and might be able to offer some advice and knowledge.
> Don't forget that those "up and coming" keepers are going to be the future for this industry. We want to fuel them with the appropriate attitude and means to be a success in this industry...not turn them off to the point that they go against everyone to simply spite them, thus causing trouble for your local industry. Show him the right way, and I'm sure with his passion that he'll be an asset at a later time. Push him away, he could possibly be your later detriment.
> 
> This is only my opinion.
> 
> My best to all,
> 
> Chris


Thankyou for the comment, Chris. 

I do feel that while posting on this Forum, quite a few people have found me to be annoying, and down right irritating. I do not feel the need to purposely agrovate people within, and around the forum and I do feel that it is the place to learn. The question is....How can I possibly learn through other's experience if I am being told to *STAY CLEAR* of the forum and *LOCK THE THREAD*?

I, do understand that people get irritated when common knowledge is said....But, if this "Common knowledge" was not said....Then people would be questioning my opinions further as to what I clearly mean.

*Everybody*, and yes I mean everybody who keeps reptiles, at some stage in their hobby they were a beginner. And without doubtedly they referred to "Common knowledge". Because when you're a beginner...That is ALL you know.

It's similar as to learning to drive....You take lessons, You take the test, You pass it....And then you learn to drive by developing you're own driving methods (Some, not so good) and gain experience. Well that surely comes with starting a hobby like this? Yes, it's an unforgiveing hobby....And with this side, a simple mistake will put you in the emergency room and waste a week of you're life, if not longer. You possibly may not leave the hospital alive. But that's a risk one may take when wanting to work with these amazing animals.

As for the sound advice, Many people have been extremely good and informative with their advice, and I am extremely greatfulm especially to those such as Mark O'Shea, and the other experienced keepers and Scientists who posted on this paticular thread. I am in the current stage of learning, and I try hard not to irritate people. I'm a beginner....I'm starting to do more self research via the web, and reading. And by posting questions on forums such as this one.

I appologise if you all got annoyed by some of my posts....I did not mean any harm or haterid towards anybody.

This is just how I personally see things.

Regards,

James


----------



## Aconite

Hi James,

I can see this thread is now coming to an end and so I dont want to invigorate the whole debate. But I just needed to add that it is not just your safely that needs to be considered. 
You talk a lot about avoiding ending up in hospital etc. But actually *the safety of the snakes is also something that needs to be considered. *

People have talked here about not restraining a snake when it is young etc. But I would argue that all these things are a huge way down the line...
People try to keep simple snakes like corns and fail at the first hurdle when it comes to simple husbandry. 
Before you even consider dwa, you have to learn how to keep a snake alive and healthy. 
Just day to day stuff, like the water change, poo removal etc. All very mundane.
When you get a snake there are so many different ways of keeping it. 
Some people use vis only, others rubs. Some ceramics, others heatmats. The learning curve for the husbandry alone is endless. 

I have never got into dwa simply because there has not been the time! I am still learning about which snakes I enjoy more. (And I have been keeping snakes for almost 30 years.) 
For instance, I keep some slightly grumpy snakes, like Amazons and a gtp. But the snake that I recently got freaked me out much more than a bite from one of them. 
I got a garter snake! The most easy to keep snake out there! And I just cant do it! The little bugger is too quick for me! I just know I am going to loose it when it darts out of the viv! (And for me loosing a snake = killing it. As in this country the chance of it surviving for long are minimal.)
For me the bite of a snake has never been the issue. I have seen snakes hurt because of clumsy handling, bad husbandry and the keepers simply putting their need for an adrenaline rush before that of the snakes comfort and security. We hurt them far more than they can ever hurt us. 

So what I am trying to say (in a very drawn out way) is that there is a world of learning out there when it comes to safely keeping a snake. But remember - *it is not only about your safety*.


----------



## ViperLover

Aconite said:


> Hi James,
> 
> I can see this thread is now coming to an end and so I dont want to invigorate the whole debate. But I just needed to add that it is not just your safely that needs to be considered.
> You talk a lot about avoiding ending up in hospital etc. But actually *the safety of the snakes is also something that needs to be considered. *
> 
> People have talked here about not restraining a snake when it is young etc. But I would argue that all these things are a huge way down the line...
> People try to keep simple snakes like corns and fail at the first hurdle when it comes to simple husbandry.
> Before you even consider dwa, you have to learn how to keep a snake alive and healthy.
> Just day to day stuff, like the water change, poo removal etc. All very mundane.
> When you get a snake there are so many different ways of keeping it.
> Some people use vis only, others rubs. Some ceramics, others heatmats. The learning curve for the husbandry alone is endless.
> 
> I have never got into dwa simply because there has not been the time! I am still learning about which snakes I enjoy more. (And I have been keeping snakes for almost 30 years.)
> For instance, I keep some slightly grumpy snakes, like Amazons and a gtp. But the snake that I recently got freaked me out much more than a bite from one of them.
> I got a garter snake! The most easy to keep snake out there! And I just cant do it! The little bugger is too quick for me! I just know I am going to loose it when it darts out of the viv! (And for me loosing a snake = killing it. As in this country the chance of it surviving for long are minimal.)
> For me the bite of a snake has never been the issue. I have seen snakes hurt because of clumsy handling, bad husbandry and the keepers simply putting their need for an adrenaline rush before that of the snakes comfort and security. We hurt them far more than they can ever hurt us.
> 
> So what I am trying to say (in a very drawn out way) is that there is a world of learning out there when it comes to safely keeping a snake. But remember - *it is not only about your safety*.


Thankyou for the comment.

The welfare of the animal is certainly going to be a big concern, as I myself do not subscribe to Animal Cruelty.

You're correct, I need to learn more then just the basics. I'd imagine many keepers feel failiure when they lose the battle in keeping the animal alive due to simple things like lack of food or water. I do not want to be the statistic regarded as "the guy who can't keep his animals alive". 

Which goes back to the reason why I use this forum. Learning, and taking advice of simple care and husbandry.


----------



## snakekeeper

I haven't had the chance or the time to read through all your posts so i'm not quite sure why some members in here are being harsh towards you. Bearing in mind your age and experience, my advice to you would be to acknowledge what has been offered to you by some members in here who actually keep the snakes you so desire to have one day. Research on the snakes that you like, read books, surf the net, watch documentaries, phone up zoos and ask to speak to staff who are able to answer your questions. Be polite, respectful and enthusiastic, actually absorb what has been said to you and try to move forwards, don't remain in limbo. Try to get some experience, as people have already mentioned in here, at a reptile-pet shop or centre, the experience would be invaluable trust me. When I was 14 I use to help out at a friend's reptile shop on the weekends and it was an eye-opener. I too was absoultely fascinated with reptiles and wanted almost anything that was cold-blooded, until one day I witnessed my friend's nephew who is a big guy, being bitten by a green anaconda right before my eyes and it wasn't a pretty sight. It took 4 adults to remove the snake from off of his arm. Trust me, at the age of 15, I was able to begin eliminating certain species off of my teenage wish-list. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't put off green anacondas, but I was fully aware that I wouldn't be able to handle a situation like that if I had it. My first ever snake was a cornsnake and I absolutley loved it. I couldn't get enough of it and trust me, the husbandry wasn't that easy at the age of 15. It was hard work.. You will only ever appreciate how hard a situation is if you experience it first hand. Now 25 years on I am a biologist/herpetologist and work full time with reptiles. I can honestly say that even though I go looking for venomous snakes and on many occassion photograph and hook-handle them out in the wild, each time I come across one I always still feel a little nervous. No amount of experience with hots should alter that one sense which will always keep you on your toes. Being too confident can bring about carelessness. All it takes is one mistake and that one mistake could cost you your life. If I was you I wouldn't even think about keeping anything remotely venomous or for that matter dangerous. If you really do find snakes fascinating, choose one that you can handle comfortably, a species which you have read up on and researched alot about, a snake that you can get close to and learn more about, one that you feel you will be able to enjoy as long as it lives, remember, snakes are living creatures and not toys. Some can live up to 30-40 years, that in itself is a huge responsibility. Are you in an ecominic position to maintain your hobby? Snakes need feeding, they need appropriate housing, heating etc.. Do you have a job? 

Again, not sure what all the others have said to you, but in my opinion, you should definetely remove the dream of keeping venomous snakes from your head, "it's a dangerous thought, within an unforgiving hobby".


----------



## ViperLover

snakekeeper said:


> I haven't had the chance or the time to read through all your posts so i'm not quite sure why some members in here are being harsh towards you. Bearing in mind your age and experience, my advice to you would be to acknowledge what has been offered to you by some members in here who actually keep the snakes you so desire to have one day. Research on the snakes that you like, read books, surf the net, watch documentaries, phone up zoos and ask to speak to staff who are able to answer your questions. Be polite, respectful and enthusiastic, actually absorb what has been said to you and try to move forwards, don't remain in limbo. Try to get some experience, as people have already mentioned in here, at a reptile-pet shop or centre, the experience would be invaluable trust me. When I was 14 I use to help out at a friend's reptile shop on the weekends and it was an eye-opener. I too was absoultely fascinated with reptiles and wanted almost anything that was cold-blooded, until one day I witnessed my friend's nephew who is a big guy, being bitten by a green anaconda right before my eyes and it wasn't a pretty sight. It took 4 adults to remove the snake from off of his arm. Trust me, at the age of 15, I was able to begin eliminating certain species off of my teenage wish-list. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't put off green anacondas, but I was fully aware that I wouldn't be able to handle a situation like that if I had it. My first ever snake was a cornsnake and I absolutley loved it. I couldn't get enough of it and trust me, the husbandry wasn't that easy at the age of 15. It was hard work.. You will only ever appreciate how hard a situation is if you experience it first hand. Now 25 years on I am a biologist/herpetologist and work full time with reptiles. I can honestly say that even though I go looking for venomous snakes and on many occassion photograph and hook-handle them out in the wild, each time I come across one I always still feel a little nervous. No amount of experience with hots should alter that one sense which will always keep you on your toes. Being too confident can bring about carelessness. All it takes is one mistake and that one mistake could cost you your life. If I was you I wouldn't even think about keeping anything remotely venomous or for that matter dangerous. If you really do find snakes fascinating, choose one that you can handle comfortably, a species which you have read up on and researched alot about, a snake that you can get close to and learn more about, one that you feel you will be able to enjoy as long as it lives, remember, snakes are living creatures and not toys. Some can live up to 30-40 years, that in itself is a huge responsibility. Are you in an ecominic position to maintain your hobby? Snakes need feeding, they need appropriate housing, heating etc.. Do you have a job?
> 
> Again, not sure what all the others have said to you, but in my opinion, you should definetely remove the dream of keeping venomous snakes from your head, "it's a dangerous thought, within an unforgiving hobby".


 
Thankyou for the advice mate.

Hiow do you become a Herpetologist/Biologist?


----------



## paulrimmer69

james im just curious on a few things, have your parents actually given you the go ahead to bring a snake into the house? how do they feel about your dream of keeping venomous? yoyr 16 so take it your not in any position to get your own place just yet? this mite seem abit nosey but if sometime in the future if you have your heart set on keeping hots your going to need your own property (i seriously doubt any landlords will let you turn a room into a hotroom), and a shedload of money to do the work necessary to get a license, both of which are well out of the grasp of 99% of teenagers, this is just the financial side of things, even a full setup for a corn is going to set you back in excess off £100 and correct me if im wrong but im sure you mentioned you dont currenty have a job? keeping a collection of reptiles isnt the cheapest hobby in the world so maybe you should think about getting a job before you think about owning any animals? apologies if iv got this part wrong


----------



## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> james im just curious on a few things, have your parents actually given you the go ahead to bring a snake into the house? how do they feel about your dream of keeping venomous? yoyr 16 so take it your not in any position to get your own place just yet? this mite seem abit nosey but if sometime in the future if you have your heart set on keeping hots your going to need your own property (i seriously doubt any landlords will let you turn a room into a hotroom), and a shedload of money to do the work necessary to get a license, both of which are well out of the grasp of 99% of teenagers, this is just the financial side of things, even a full setup for a corn is going to set you back in excess off £100 and correct me if im wrong but im sure you mentioned you dont currenty have a job? keeping a collection of reptiles isnt the cheapest hobby in the world so maybe you should think about getting a job before you think about owning any animals? apologies if iv got this part wrong


You have got this part 100% correct. I'm not going to even think about getting a hot collection untill I have my own place. I need a job before I do anything, and my family said it is out of the question untill I have researched more about the animal I wish to keep for it's welfare. They also think that my venomous keeping ambition is incredbibly stupid! And that's deffinately for something later on.


----------



## niliano_05

and the climate the way it is, im 21 with a good job and still cant asfford my own place i live in a council place...... and i struggle with that!!!


----------



## ViperLover

niliano_05 said:


> and the *economy* the way it is, im 21 with a good job and still cant asfford my own place i live in a council place...... and i struggle with that!!!


Do you keep reptiles then?


----------



## Malc

Mods - I feel it's time to lock this thread.... I think everyone here is in the opinion that James has been given all the advice he needs to go off and start with a Corn snake, and then come back here in 10, 15 or 20 years time when he's grown up a bit and has gained enough experience and maturity to ask direct and sincere questions on keeping hot snakes, rather than going off on tangents all the time.


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> Mods - I feel it's time to lock this thread.... I think everyone here is in the opinion that James has been given all the advice he needs to go off and start with a Corn snake, and then come back here in 10, 15 or 20 years time when he's grown up a bit and has gained enough experience and maturity to ask direct and sincere questions on keeping hot snakes, rather than going off on tangents all the time.


 
Why lock the thread?


----------



## Ssthisto

ViperLover said:


> .What do you do when you need to forcefeed the animal? Thats what I was getting at.


Well, all things considered, forcefeeding is really a very, very last resort. Not something you'd just decide to do. Hopefully you will *never* need to know how to do it - for venomous or nonvenomous.



ScottGB said:


> So I'm going to get a nasty as hell tiger rat snake, an Radiated Rat snake


I've got a radiated if you're interested - and he hasn't been handled much, so he will be flighty and bitey.



SW-morelia said:


> That aside..... Sssthistooo (?Sp) is selling a mental Radiated... Though she would probably want it to go to a genuine keeper and not for some one to practice with....


Slightly fewer S and slightly fewer O 

I'm perfectly happy for Fusion to go to someone who genuinely wants to own a radiated ratsnake, whether that's because they wanted to try taming him down, because they wanted to breed Radiateds, or because they want a snake that will teach them how fast an arboreal ratsnake really can move and how far they can bounce when they're motivated to bite you.

Fusion's not disgustingly mental - if I move slow, I can put my hand into his viv without him having a go at me - but trying to touch him or pick him up provokes snakey explosion. He's also quite funny when there's food around. My partner can manage him with a hook and tail, but I just plain don't move fast enough, and I'm the person who is primary feed-and-clean for the snakes. He's managed to get past me and into awkward places four times, and that's about three times too many for me.

Viperlover, until you've actually kept "a snake" you won't know whether you actually like being a snake keeper or not. Certainly I didn't know that I am not a _Boa constrictor imperator_ keeper until we experienced one. I didn't know that I AM a _Python regius_ keeper until we had a couple. I wouldn't get your heart set on keeping DWA reptiles until you know whether or not you want to be a reptile keeper at all. It's expensive, time-consuming and space-consuming. 

When it comes down to it, I might eventually go down one specific DWA species route - Gilas / Beadeds - but if we ever have them at home, that will be *after* we have experience working with them in an environment where we have experienced handlers to show us what we will need to do. That way, we'll know whether keeping the species is actually right for us or not, before we go through the expense of setting up a venomous room, getting the inspection and the licencing...


----------



## ViperLover

Ssthisto said:


> Well, all things considered, forcefeeding is really a very, very last resort. Not something you'd just decide to do. Hopefully you will *never* need to know how to do it - for venomous or nonvenomous.
> 
> 
> I've got a radiated if you're interested - and he hasn't been handled much, so he will be flighty and bitey.
> 
> 
> Slightly fewer S and slightly fewer O
> 
> I'm perfectly happy for Fusion to go to someone who genuinely wants to own a radiated ratsnake, whether that's because they wanted to try taming him down, because they wanted to breed Radiateds, or because they want a snake that will teach them how fast an arboreal ratsnake really can move and how far they can bounce when they're motivated to bite you.
> 
> Fusion's not disgustingly mental - if I move slow, I can put my hand into his viv without him having a go at me - but trying to touch him or pick him up provokes snakey explosion. He's also quite funny when there's food around. My partner can manage him with a hook and tail, but I just plain don't move fast enough, and I'm the person who is primary feed-and-clean for the snakes. He's managed to get past me and into awkward places four times, and that's about three times too many for me.
> 
> Viperlover, until you've actually kept "a snake" you won't know whether you actually like being a snake keeper or not. Certainly I didn't know that I am not a _Boa constrictor imperator_ keeper until we experienced one. I didn't know that I AM a _Python regius_ keeper until we had a couple. I wouldn't get your heart set on keeping DWA reptiles until you know whether or not you want to be a reptile keeper at all. It's expensive, time-consuming and space-consuming.
> 
> When it comes down to it, I might eventually go down one specific DWA species route - Gilas / Beadeds - but if we ever have them at home, that will be *after* we have experience working with them in an environment where we have experienced handlers to show us what we will need to do. That way, we'll know whether keeping the species is actually right for us or not, before we go through the expense of setting up a venomous room, getting the inspection and the licencing...


 
Cool, thankyou for the advice.

So, are Gilas and Beaded Lizards on the DWA??


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, Gilas and Beadeds are DWA - _Heloderma _is the only genus of lizard that's listed.

I have a soft spot for them because I was born and raised in the American southwest, so they're "neighbours".


----------



## ViperLover

Ssthisto said:


> Yes, Gilas and Beadeds are DWA - _Heloderma _is the only genus of lizard that's listed.
> 
> I have a soft spot for them because I was born and raised in the American southwest, so they're "neighbours".


 
They are very cool little guys!

Gilas are cute.....especially when they innocently lap up the contents of an egg! lol. 

_Completely off-topic - _But I have a soft spot for Blue-tounged Lizards aswell...(Also known as Blue-Tongued Skinks if I am right?) I have no idea the requirements for these animals....They look very interesting though, and could be fun anf facinating to keep.


----------



## Ssthisto

ViperLover said:


> _Completely off-topic - _But I have a soft spot for Blue-tounged Lizards aswell...(Also known as Blue-Tongued Skinks if I am right?) I have no idea the requirements for these animals....They look very interesting though, and could be fun anf facinating to keep.


Blue-tongued skinks are brilliant. They're actually as good a starter lizard as a beardie (although, due to having smaller litters and only once yearly, they're a bit more expensive to buy the animal itself; I think the extra expense is worth it!) and can be very friendly and handleable as long as you don't wind up with a Tanimbar Island Skink... they're feisty little monsters. Disgustingly cute, though


----------



## ViperLover

Ssthisto said:


> Blue-tongued skinks are brilliant. They're actually as good a starter lizard as a beardie (although, due to having smaller litters and only once yearly, they're a bit more expensive to buy the animal itself; I think the extra expense is worth it!) and can be very friendly and handleable as long as you don't wind up with a Tanimbar Island Skink... they're feisty little monsters. Disgustingly cute, though


 
Are they fairly easy to keep?


----------



## PDR

James, one last word of advice......
Please don’t even start to think about giving out any re-hashed advice or information on the treatment of venomous bites!!!!!

There is so much information out there that is way out of date. Other countries may use techniques and procedures that are different to what we would use here in the UK.

We have already had one “armchair expert” that wrote a set of seriously flawed bite protocols for a private venomous keeper. The keeper took a bad bite and the hospital used his protocols. One of our most eminent UK snake bite specialist was turned away when he offered his help...... but they soon came crawling back once they realised that the situation was rapidly deteriorating.

*Don’t forget**, **A little knowledge is a dangerous thing *
(First used by Alexander Pope (1688 - 1744) in _An Essay on Criticism_, 1709):


----------



## snakekeeper

ViperLover said:


> They are very cool little guys!
> 
> Gilas are cute.....especially when they innocently lap up the contents of an egg! lol.
> 
> _Completely off-topic - _But I have a soft spot for Blue-tounged Lizards aswell...(Also known as Blue-Tongued Skinks if I am right?) I have no idea the requirements for these animals....They look very interesting though, and could be fun anf facinating to keep.


Believe me, Gila monsters do not do anything innocently, especially feeding from eggs. We have a trio and I can honestly say that they know exactly what they are doing. Absolutely stunning lizards; my favourite by far.


----------



## Ssthisto

ViperLover said:


> Gilas are cute.....especially when they innocently lap up the contents of an egg! lol.


So's my Nile monitor when he takes beaten egg out of a cup, but I wouldn't trust him any closer to my hand than "the other side of the cup".

I've PMed you regarding blueys.


----------



## ViperLover

Ssthisto said:


> So's my Nile monitor when he takes beaten egg out of a cup, but I wouldn't trust him any closer to my hand than "the other side of the cup".
> 
> I've PMed you regarding blueys.


I wouldn't trust any Lizard near my hands....especially a Monitor Lizard, those teeth and claws will rip you to shreads, so I have read. I have also read from Dr. Bryan G. Fry's research that Monitor Lizards, as along with Gilas and Beadies are Venomous? And he also stated in his writeup, that the Bacteria is completely untrue, and it is however venom which does the damage.

Gilas and Beaded Lizards aside....Are Monitor Lizards classified as DWA?


----------



## Ssthisto

No, there currently aren't any monitor species listed on the DWA. That doesn't mean it couldn't change - but if the list was reviewed, the people asking for them to be put on would have to prove that the species they're asking for pose a threat to the public.

I regularly trust most of my lizards near my hands (although not always with food!) but then the lizards I currently keep - with the exception of the Nile - are frequently handled pets. It doesn't mean you can't get bitten (and I have) but being bitten by a leopard gecko or nipped by a tegu really isn't on a par with the bite-and-chew of a _Heloderma_-genus lizard.

Heck, as far as it goes, I do offer the Nile food "by hand" in containers (with the container shielding my hand) on occasion. It's having worked with him for the last couple of years and learning how he reacts, reading his body language and knowing that if there's food in the container, he is unlikely to come up and over it to go for my arm.


----------



## Malc

ViperLover said:


> Why lock the thread?


Well here's 5 reasons IMO why

1) - Your original question has been answered time and time again. Basically the advice from those who have lots of experience in keeping venomous snakes have said you are not up to the task and lack experience.

2) - You constantly come over as being arrogant and like most 16 year old kids think they know it all, often giving out advice when you haven't any prior first hand knowledge of the subject

3) - You fail to heed any advice that is given, especially from very experienced keepers 

4) - you've gone off on a tangent on so many posts - now we're talking about gila monsters ! - Christ talk about jumping in the deep end !

5) - It's evident by your posts that all you do is google the subject and then quote back what you've read from other peoples websites or wikipedia - which only goes to wind those with the experience up.

You've been given advice - now take it. Go get yourself a job, save up £200, then get a nice corn snake and set up and then gain the experience by gradually working your way up by moving on to slightly larger snakes with attitudes.

Hopefully that's my final input to this debate !


----------



## ViperLover

Ssthisto said:


> No, there currently aren't any monitor species listed on the DWA. That doesn't mean it couldn't change - but if the list was reviewed, the people asking for them to be put on would have to prove that the species they're asking for pose a threat to the public.
> 
> I regularly trust most of my lizards near my hands (although not always with food!) but then the lizards I currently keep - with the exception of the Nile - are frequently handled pets. It doesn't mean you can't get bitten (and I have) but being bitten by a leopard gecko or nipped by a tegu really isn't on a par with the bite-and-chew of a _Heloderma_-genus lizard.
> 
> Heck, as far as it goes, I do offer the Nile food "by hand" in containers (with the container shielding my hand) on occasion. It's having worked with him for the last couple of years and learning how he reacts, reading his body language and knowing that if there's food in the container, he is unlikely to come up and over it to go for my arm.


I have heard that Nile's...of all the Monitors inflict a very painful bite?

Judging by what you just posted here....I think I can safely rephrase my first statement. I wouldn't trust a lizard around my hands when there's food present.....Or even the scent on my fingertips! LOL

Komodo Dragons....Are these specified as DWA? They are sometimes known as a land Crocodile to my knowledge....It would be interesting to learn about these....They grow to be one of the largest lizards on the planet (Other then Crocodillians?) and I have read, that despite their size they can run shockingly fast!

Are Crocodillians classified as Lizards?? I have often heard him say while watching Steve Irwin's episodes of _The Crocodile Hunter _"He's a Big Lizard!" reffering to a Crocodile.


----------



## SiUK

ViperLover said:


> I have heard that Nile's...of all the Monitors inflict a very painful bite?
> 
> Judging by what you just posted here....I think I can safely rephrase my first statement. I wouldn't trust a lizard around my hands when there's food present.....Or even the scent on my fingertips! LOL
> 
> Komodo Dragons....Are these specified as DWA? They are sometimes known as a land Crocodile to my knowledge....It would be interesting to learn about these....They grow to be one of the largest lizards on the planet (Other then Crocodillians?) and I have read, that despite their size they can run shockingly fast!
> 
> Are Crocodillians classified as Lizards?? I have often heard him say while watching Steve Irwin's episodes of _The Crocodile Hunter _"He's a Big Lizard!" reffering to a Crocodile.


Komodo dragons arnt actually DWA but hard to get hold of, Crocodillians arnt lizards they are "crocodillians"


----------



## Ssthisto

Malc said:


> now we're talking about gila monsters ! - Christ talk about jumping in the deep end !


Really? It might be more the folks in the DWA fraternity that I've spoken to, but none of them have reacted with shock that I might want to have a Gila as my first (and probably only) venomous species.

Conversely when I said I might someday like to have a prairie rattler, the immediate answer was "Please don't, I don't want you to die."



ViperLover said:


> I have heard that Nile's...of all the Monitors inflict a very painful bite?


Well, our Nile has bitten my partner a couple of times. I think in both cases the *claws* were worse than the bite; he's not a big monitor, and at ten years old he's not likely to get any bigger. The scars my partner has from him are all from where Diablo has grabbed on with his hind feet and RAKED.

However, the bites were short, sharp nipping bites rather than the grab and grind they CAN do if they're sufficiently provoked. That would probably have been more uncomfortable.

From what I understand from people who've worked with several monitor species, the bite to *really* avoid is a crocodile monitor. A relatively small youngster has a very large gape, and the damage she did in one bite was pretty impressive to see.

Viperlover, I'd strongly suggest you get yourself some good books on reptiles and read them cover to cover. I'm currently looking across the room at the second edition of Herpetology by Zug, Vitt and Caldwell (which was gifted to us by one of the regulars at our local shop - thank you again, John!) and leafing through that has been very interesting. I'm learning things from the book that five years of practical keeping HAVEN'T taught me yet.


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> 4) - you've gone off on a tangent on so many posts - now we're talking about gila monsters ! - Christ talk about jumping in the deep end !


 
Sorry Malc, But this is a DWA Forum....So talking about an animal listed as a Dangerous Wild Animal isn't going off topic!

As for taking advice, I have re-read, and re-thought the advice of many people on here, and the majority of it was very solid, and sound advice and I appreciate it. It's certainly turned my head from keeping a dangerous animal....Atleast for a few years untill I have the knowledge and experience to back it up.


----------



## Malc

Ssthisto said:


> Really? It might be more the folks in the DWA fraternity that I've spoken to, but none of them have reacted with shock that I might want to have a Gila as my first (and probably only) venomous species..


Not aimed at you - aimed at James


----------



## Tehanu

Ssthisto said:


> Really? It might be more the folks in the DWA fraternity that I've spoken to, but none of them have reacted with shock that I might want to have a Gila as my first (and probably only) venomous species.


I'm pretty sure he mean't that James going from talking about copperheads, then boomslangs, then cornsnakes and kingsnakes, then _Heloderma sps_. was "jumping in".

EDIT: my waffling took too long for that to be relevant hah!

I'd personally consider Heloderms as the only DWA animals I'd ever consider keeping privately, they're lovely animals, lightening quick and no room for error but fairly predictable and just not in the same league as DWA snakes or Crocodilians. I find the _H. h. exasperatum_ at work much less stressful to work with than say my_ B. d. dendrophila_ at home, which aren't even DWA anymore...

Just while I'm reminded of it, I'd just like to make an observation about the mindset when working with dangerous animals. Of the many species I work with at home and professionally on a daily basis, these are the species that (for me) demand a particular mindset when working with them; Eyelash vipers, Rio Fuerte beaded lizards, Cuvier's dwarf Caiman, 15' _Burmese Pythons, A pair of Cyclura Iguanas and my own Mangrove snakes_. 
Half of these aren't DWA animals, everytime I open/enter the enclosure of one of these animals they demand 100% attention, not only do you need to keep your eye and focus on the animal (or animals!) throughout, but you must be immune to distractions. 
New snake keepers accidently leave vivs open all to often, a recent topic discussing it had some people saying "yeah but the doorbell rang etc" so I just forgot... Nothing must distract you before you secure the enclosure, everytime.

Everytime I (and I imagine this is true for everyone else too) work with animals like this I run through how I would implement my own or professional protocols that day, I consider how fast I could have help and what that would mean relative to the species in question. Every single time is a mental challenge, which in the end you may or may not find enjoyable. 

Anyway, I'm just waffling to avoid Sunday housework :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## leecb0

I have only one thing to say


2 parrots sitting on a perch
one said to the other
can you smell fish????


----------



## carpy

SiUK said:


> Komodo dragons arnt actually DWA but hard to get hold of, Crocodillians arnt lizards they are "crocodillians"


yea, i would imagine getting hold of any cites appendix I animals will be about as much of a pain in the arse as the whole DWAL in the first instance!


----------



## Ssthisto

carpy said:


> yea, i would imagine getting hold of any cites appendix I animals will be about as much of a pain in the arse as the whole DWAL in the first instance!


I've got a CITES Annex I animal in my living room. Getting hold of him was as simple as going to our local shop, saying "Can we have a look at the Dumerils Boa?" and then buying him, plus his Article 10 paperwork.


----------



## carpy

Ssthisto said:


> I've got a CITES Annex I animal in my living room. Getting hold of him was as simple as going to our local shop, saying "Can we have a look at the Dumerils Boa?" and then buying him, plus his Article 10 paperwork.


phrased that exceptionally badly - i have kept both dummies and E. inornatus - thats what no sleep and a heavy night of alcohol does to you.

i will rephrase that, getting hold of a cites I animal such as the komodo will be as much of a pain in the ass as getting the DWA itself.

i guess you could argue the komodo should be on the list, its definitely got the dangerous wild animal description pretty wrapped up. one isnt exactly going to innocently find its way into a petshop though


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## ViperLover

Saedcantas said:


> I'm pretty sure he mean't that James going from talking about copperheads, then boomslangs, then cornsnakes and kingsnakes, then _Heloderma sps_. was "jumping in".
> 
> EDIT: my waffling took too long for that to be relevant hah!
> 
> I'd personally consider Heloderms as the only DWA animals I'd ever consider keeping privately, they're lovely animals, lightening quick and no room for error but fairly predictable and just not in the same league as DWA snakes or Crocodilians. I find the _H. h. exasperatum_ at work much less stressful to work with than say my_ B. d. dendrophila_ at home, which aren't even DWA anymore...
> 
> Just while I'm reminded of it, I'd just like to make an observation about the mindset when working with dangerous animals. Of the many species I work with at home and professionally on a daily basis, these are the species that (for me) demand a particular mindset when working with them; Eyelash vipers, Rio Fuerte beaded lizards, Cuvier's dwarf Caiman, 15' _Burmese Pythons, A pair of Cyclura Iguanas and my own Mangrove snakes_.
> Half of these aren't DWA animals, everytime I open/enter the enclosure of one of these animals they demand 100% attention, not only do you need to keep your eye and focus on the animal (or animals!) throughout, but you must be immune to distractions.
> New snake keepers accidently leave vivs open all to often, a recent topic discussing it had some people saying "yeah but the doorbell rang etc" so I just forgot... Nothing must distract you before you secure the enclosure, everytime.
> 
> Everytime I (and I imagine this is true for everyone else too) work with animals like this I run through how I would implement my own or professional protocols that day, I consider how fast I could have help and what that would mean relative to the species in question. Every single time is a mental challenge, which in the end you may or may not find enjoyable.
> 
> Anyway, I'm just waffling to avoid Sunday housework :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> image


 
From what I have seen through pictures and video, Eyelash Vipers are very stunning animals, and have gorgeous colouration. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being mild, 10 being lethal - How would you rate their temper, and their toxitity? I was told you are a reptile keeper at Jersey Zoo? I wouldn't mind stopping by and visiting one day if I decide to take a Holiday over there.

I do agree, however that no matter what the animal is, you shouldn't leave the cage doors open; Its not pleasant having critters loose at the best of times, especially if theyre venomous, surely? But *surely someone has said this*, and *somebody* at some piont has left a viv door open, to quickly answer the door....Or has left an animal on the table-top to quickly grab something in another room. I know *some people that I follow on youtube* are guilty of doing this. But I suppose if you are experienced, and know the animals habbits you are most abled to predict what the animal will do? So as it won't be so much of a risk.


----------



## StevetheSnake

ViperLover said:


> From what I have seen through pictures and video, Eyelash Vipers are very stunning animals, and have gorgeous colouration. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being mild, 10 being lethal - How would you rate their temper, and their toxitity? I was told you are a reptile keeper at Jersey Zoo? I wouldn't mind stopping by and visiting one day if I decide to take a Holiday over there.
> 
> I do agree, however that no matter what the animal is, you shouldn't leave the cage doors open; Its not pleasant having critters loose at the best of times, especially if theyre venomous, surely? But everybody says this,* and everybody at some piont has left a viv door open*, to quickly answer the door....Or has left an animal on the table-top to quickly grab something in another room. I know Viperkeeper is guilty of doing this. But I suppose if you are experienced, and know the animals habbits you are most abled to predict what the animal will do? So as it won't be so much of a risk.


How can you say this??? jesus, its gone beyond annoying, i'm also starting to think you are on a wind up mission


----------



## reef

ViperLover said:


> From what I have seen through pictures and video, Eyelash Vipers are very stunning animals, and have gorgeous colouration. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being mild, 10 being lethal - How would you rate their temper, and their toxitity? I was told you are a reptile keeper at Jersey Zoo? I wouldn't mind stopping by and visiting one day if I decide to take a Holiday over there.
> 
> I do agree, however that no matter what the animal is, you shouldn't leave the cage doors open; Its not pleasant having critters loose at the best of times, especially if theyre venomous, surely? But everybody says this, and everybody at some piont has left a viv door open, to quickly answer the door....Or has left an animal on the table-top to quickly grab something in another room. I know Viperkeeper is guilty of doing this. But I suppose if you are experienced, and know the animals habbits you are most abled to predict what the animal will do? So as it won't be so much of a risk.


In over 25 years of rep keeping i can safely say this has never happened ,
please don't make assumptions about something you obviously know little about (apart from hearsay/google )


----------



## ViperLover

reef said:


> In over 25 years of rep keeping i can safely say this has never happened ,
> please don't make assumptions about something you obviously know little about (apart from hearsay/google )


 
Ok, some people say this...Not all


----------



## carpy

ViperLover said:


> From what I have seen through pictures and video, Eyelash Vipers are very stunning animals, and have gorgeous colouration. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being mild, 10 being lethal - How would you rate their temper, and their toxitity? I was told you are a reptile keeper at Jersey Zoo? I wouldn't mind stopping by and visiting one day if I decide to take a Holiday over there.
> 
> I do agree, however that no matter what the animal is, you shouldn't leave the cage doors open; Its not pleasant having critters loose at the best of times, especially if theyre venomous, surely? But everybody says this, and everybody at some piont has left a viv door open, to quickly answer the door....Or has left an animal on the table-top to quickly grab something in another room. I know Viperkeeper is guilty of doing this. But I suppose if you are experienced, and know the animals habbits you are most abled to predict what the animal will do? So as it won't be so much of a risk.


if you are experienced and implement the protocols which you should have the situation would not arise. i would be very surprised if any DWA keeper in the uk has left a viv door of one of their venomous open. even so given the requirements for dwa the animals should be in a room which is escape proof, therefore even if a viv were to be left open the animal should not be able to escape

any venomous snake not either in a vivarium or under control is a risk. no ifs or buts - it is a risk. you can be the most experienced herpetologist in the world, with decades of experience working with every imaginable type of venomous snake, but it is still a risk, and requires careful calculation.

for the record, i have NEVER left a vivarium open and unattended


----------



## ViperLover

ViperLover said:


> From what I have seen through pictures and video, Eyelash Vipers are very stunning animals, and have gorgeous colouration. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being mild, 10 being lethal - How would you rate their temper, and their toxitity? I was told you are a reptile keeper at Jersey Zoo? I wouldn't mind stopping by and visiting one day if I decide to take a Holiday over there.
> 
> I do agree, however that no matter what the animal is, you shouldn't leave the cage doors open; Its not pleasant having critters loose at the best of times, especially if theyre venomous, surely? But *surely someone has said this*, and *somebody* at some piont has left a viv door open, to quickly answer the door....Or has left an animal on the table-top to quickly grab something in another room. I know *some people that I follow on youtube* are guilty of doing this. But I suppose if you are experienced, and know the animals habbits you are most abled to predict what the animal will do? So as it won't be so much of a risk.


For the record, I have reworded this. Sorry people


----------



## reef

I can only hope that you are a wind up merchant as at this point i am concerned the next few years will result in a post entitled 

RIP viperlover 


I do hope i am wrong but something tells me otherwise


----------



## ViperLover

reef said:


> I can only hope that you are a wind up merchant as at this point *i am concerned the next few years will result in a post entitled *
> 
> *RIP viperlover *
> 
> 
> I do hope i am wrong but something tells me otherwise


 
Not a wind up merchant, I just never chose my words correctly.

I re-phrased myself..

And what do you mean? Highlighted in Bold


----------



## DRD

i dont no people even wait their time in giving advice to someone that evidently isnt taking in the information handed to them!

Its just a shame people like this give a bad name to the hobby! the press dont care about the thousands of people in the hobby who do things right!
only the odd people that screw it up for the rest of us!


----------



## ViperLover

DRD said:


> i dont no people even wait their time in giving advice to someone that evidently isnt taking in the information handed to them!
> 
> Its just a shame people like this give a bad name to the hobby! the press dont care about the thousands of people in the hobby who do things right!
> only the odd people that screw it up for the rest of us!


Excuse me? I have taken in the information....and know what route I am going to do. I am not trying to ruin it for anyone.


----------



## moodyblue1969

ViperLover said:


> Excuse me? I have taken in the information....and know what route I am going to do. I am not trying to ruin it for anyone.


 then go on the general snake forum and quit trying to be another steve irwin :devil:


----------



## reef

I mean viperlover that if you continue on the path i believe you have chosen ,you will obtain,keep,be bitten by and ultimatly meet your demise at the fangs of your desires 

in short you will be killed !!!! if you don't think hard about your attitude towards Dwa species


----------



## ViperLover

reef said:


> I mean viperlover that if you continue on the path i believe you have chosen ,you will obtain,keep,be bitten by and ultimatly meet your demise at the fangs of your desires
> 
> in short you will be killed !!!! if you don't think hard about your attitude towards Dwa species


 
I am not purchasing ANY DWA animals yet.

Its not worth it, but it;s still good to learn.


----------



## Genseric

I came across this the other month, and remember being sent it when I lived in Florida... and even though it is American, it is as relevant as ever... I can't remember who wrote it, but who ever it was has been thanked countless times I am sure, and I do it again.



> Welcome to Hot Elementary School
> 
> Kindergarten: This is your beginning in hot keeping - Day One of training for keeping of venomous reptiles when you get acquainted with the tools of the trade. The snake hooks come in all shapes and sizes from little collapsible that are no more than 6 inches to massive python hooks up to 8 feet long. Snake probes that look like your mothers knitting needless. Snake tubes, plastic tubes for placing snakes in for safe handling that look more suitable for holding paper towels or toilet paper then putting snakes in. Tongs for grabbing snakes that make you think you're picking up trash in a park rather then picking up snakes. If you thought on day one you would be handling the animals, think again. You have to be good at the tools of the trade and comfortable with them on nonvenomous snakes before getting close to the real animals.
> 
> First Grade: Your trainer says, "Are you ready for some fun today?" Your eyes are bright and bulging starring at the hot room, and dreams of working with venomous snakes are bouncing through your head. Your teacher tells you that the ball python cages are dirty and need cleaning as do all the other nonvenomous animals. Your heart sinks and your nose curls as you realize that this is not going to be a quick deal to work with venomous but a long slow process where you will be putting in your dues.
> 
> Your teacher walks out with you and says that every cage needs to be cleaned and every animal needs to be treated as though it were HOT. You must use the proper tools to safely remove them out of the cage and place them in a safety container. Then you must clean the cages and replace the animal using the same safety procedures. At this point you're thinking, "I am this guy's slave just for cleaning cages and am never going to get to handle the venomous I want to."
> 
> Second Grade: After several weeks of working under the supervision of your trainer cleaning ball python cages, you hear him / her say OK today we work with the hots. Your heart stops, your eyes bulge and you think, "Finally I get to work with them." He walks toward the hot room, you hot on his heels and he stops you at the door and says you stand here. He then walks in and opens a cobra's cage. You are thinking all right my turn's coming, and he says here go clean this cage and repaper it.
> 
> Back to cage cleaner you go. All day long you repeat this procedure watching him over and over again removing the animals himself you wish to work with and handing you the cage to clean. This goes on for several weeks with you watching him handling. You are thinking, "Why did I even want to learn from this guy," or "Why do I even want to be here if I can't handle the snakes myself. I am just a cage cleaner for this person but hey, at least I get to see the snakes."
> 
> Third Grade: Finally after several months of cage cleaning you walk in and he says, "Sit down, we need to talk." You are wondering what is going on what have I done wrong my teacher looks so serious and is wanting to have a sit down, there goes my training, I have pissed him off or something. He says, "OK Joe/Jane. What have you learned in the last few months?" You pause and think, You say well I have learned how to use tongs and hooks so many times cleaning cages that they are like an appendage of my own body. I have learned how to get the snakes out of their cages without getting bit. I can smell a dirty tank at 50 paces or a regurge at 100 yards.
> 
> Your trainer says, "OK have you been bit since you started using the tools here or at home?" You think No, I no longer just reach in to a cage without thinking.
> 
> Your trainer asks, "Are your own cages kept cleaner now?" You think yes they are I can now smell them when they are dirty and IM more alert to cleaning them on site also.
> 
> Your trainer asks, "Do you just open cages now without looking first?" You stop and think no, I now look for the animal in all cages before opening. Congratulations Mr. Cage Cleaner - without your knowledge your trainer broke the bad habits that could have gotten you killed. You now look before opening a cage. You now use the proper tools for handling. You now pay more attention to what you are about to do instead of just reaching in and grabbing the animal.
> 
> Your keeper says, "OK today we need to sex some animals. Today you get some hands on training." Your thinking to yourself hot dog I get to get some animals out and probe them and handle them. As you and your trainer walk towards the door he stops you again and says wait here. He walks in the room and opens up an Eastern diamondback's cage and hooks the animal out. You're thinking that it's very dangerous for two people to be in the room he is going to bring it out here for me to work with. As you watch in disbelief as he manipulates it in to a tube and then picks it up and says, "OK go ahead and probe it".
> 
> Fourth Grade: Well, now you are at least getting to touch the venomous reptiles even though you have probably probed many snakes of your own. You watch your trainer get out many snakes for probing. You see him carefully open the boxes/cages they are in, being sure to keep his body parts away from the strike range of the animals. You watch him take his time with the animals to manipulate them into the tubes. After doing this for some time he says to you OK come in the room. You are thinking, "OK now I'm going to what sweep the floor mop it maybe or get clean some of the empty cages. After all I am The Great Cage Cleaner." You're thinking, "Man, I have been doing this for 4 months now and the closest I get is to their poop or the poop shoot." When out of the blue your trainer says OK open that box up over there it's all yours.
> 
> Your eyes light up, your heart jumps a beat, you're thinking, "Finally I GET TO GET ONE OUT." You go over to the box and open it up as your trainer says how did the bite on your finger feel because you stuck your fingers under the lid when opening. You look at him and say "I did not get bit." He says look in the box and you see its empty except for a plastic snake and your thinking "What the hell." You look at your trainer and realize he fooled you! Or did he? He said how did the bite feel and you realize that you did put your fingers under the lid and had it been real you would have been bitten. You let your emotion and anxiousness get you in trouble. You realize that had it been real you would now be on your way to the hospital. You just received a very valuable lesson in never getting ahead of yourself because your so eager to see or work with an animal. The animal is not going anyplace so there is never a reason for you not to take things slow and meticulous with deliberate actions and purpose.
> 
> Fifth Grade: Your come in after that major eye opening experience and are wondering what is going to be next. I really blew it with that cage opening I could have been bit. I didn't look first to see where the animal was. I didn't use proper technique in opening the cage. I was too excited about getting to work with the animal and broke every rule I had learned. You trainer looks at you and says what are you thinking about as he sees your thinking hard. You tell him and he says, "You are now starting to show the maturity and thought needed to see your own mistakes so you do not make them again." He tells you not to dwell on your mistakes but to learn from them now when they don't kill you.
> 
> He says OK, lets go back in the room. He points to a box and says it needs to be cleaned. You go over and look inside and see what appears to be a live snake in it, but the box is too cloudy to tell which species so you place it on a counter and pop the lid so it's still on but never opened. You then reach for a small hook and open it. You had on your mind the disaster from before and do not want to risk it again especially knowing there is a live snake in this box! As you use the hook to open the box lid you see what appears to be Lataste's Viper "Vipera latastei". You are in heaven - finally I get to work with a hot even if it's just the repetition of taking the animal out and placing it in a safety holding container to clean the cage. You reach in with the hook carefully remove the viper and place it in the hold container. You go about cleaning the cage and changing the water. Then you replace the snake in the container and put the lid back on. As you do it you feel a sharp pain and realize you had your fingers under the lip of the lid and have been bit.
> 
> You turn in a state of shock and look at your trainer and tell him you just got bit. He looks at you in a funny glare and says, "You were so excited to have been working with the animal you forgot that placing a lid on is just as dangerous as taking one off. Fortunately what you thought to be the Lataste's Viper was just a very nice Solomon's Island Ground Boa, Candoia ssp. One though that looks very similar to the deadly Lataste's Viper Vipera latastei."
> 
> Another important lesson learned today in patience and attentiveness. One that caused some pain and blood this time but at least it wasn't fatal.
> 
> Sixth Grade: You have learned now how to clean cages. You have learned from your mistakes that not being patient and not thinking ahead can be painful if not downright deadly. You need to look back over these last six months or so and think to yourself, is it worth it to proceed? Do I really want to work with animals that can with one mistake take my life or disfigure me? At this point in your training you have learned much, you realize there is more to keeping venomous reptiles then just sticking them in a cage and throwing in food once in a while. After reflection of what you have seen and learned you still want to proceed with your training. You know there is no substitute for safety and awareness of your surroundings and that you must always maintain a calm and collected train of thought about what your doing, never letting emotions dictate how you handle or work with the animals. Just like in School you have to learn, sometimes learning is not fun and sometimes it is.
> 
> Looking back over your grade school introduction to venomous reptiles, you have learned the very basics of which you probably already had some knowledge. How to use a hook, how to use tongs, how to use tubes, how to clean cages. But now your trainer has forced you to use the tools more than you ever would have for your own collection of nonvenomous reptiles. He/She has taught you safety through repetition. Having a hook in your hand is now just an extension of your own hand. You are so comfortable with a hook or tong that is second nature. Your nose has developed into a sharply tuned crap smeller. Your eyes have become safety tools for noticing things out of place or out of the ordinary. Your brain now thinks about all places in a cage an animal can use to hide from sight before you open it. Safety is always on your mind. You have learned all these things but more importantly you have developed a more mature understanding of the animals and yourself. Congratulations - the elementary levels have been learned.


----------



## Genseric

> The Middle School
> 
> Seventh Grade: Today you walk in and your trainer says it's time for you to get to know the hot room. He says, "Go on in and I will be there in a moment". You have learned from the past that training is never as simple as that. You open the door and look in and see on the floor a box that looks like a lid was popped open. What do you do? The box could have had a snake in it and now it's out! You err on the side of caution and tell your trainer about what you just observed. He says, "Good, I'm glad you didn't go in the room although I did place it there to see your reaction." So now the two of you go in and he says, "Today we go over the basics of a hot room."
> 
> First thing is to make certain all cages are of a locking nature or secured to prevent escapes. The room itself should be completely escape proof with a locking door and any vents should be screened to prevent escape. You should know where all tools you need are located at all times and the floor kept clear of debris as well as the counter tops. All the cages should be properly marked and labeled as to what species are in them. An emergency protocol book should be handy and all emergency numbers posted. Emergency lighting set up in case of a power outage. Your trainer asks you to familiarize yourself with everything in the room. He then hands you the protocol book for you to see what's in it. A list of all species that is kept is list in this book along with the species is where they are from what their habitat is, their prey, and importantly the type of antivenin needed in case of a bite along with where to obtain it. All the phone numbers of other keepers in your area are listed as well as Miami Dade Fire Rescue and Poison Control. There are also papers in their on treatment for bites for each of the species kept. You notice a "DNR"order Do Not Resuscitate order and a living will. Also is the keepers full medical records. All of these things are important to have in this book in the event of a bite. They will help the hospital in better treating a bite when it occurs.
> 
> My own DNR/LIVING WILL specifically states that I do not wish to be saved if I cannot live a high quality of life after a bite. I spelled out very specifically what I felt was quality of life. I do not wish to be a vegetable or burden on my spouse. I also states in there that only my wife and my best friend who is also a qualified paramedic and one of the finest snake keepers are to make any and all decisions on my medical care and wishes in the event I am not capable of making them. I know many hospitals are not qualified due to lack of understanding of snake bites to make these important determinations. And felt that it is best to leave those decisions in the qualified hands of people who understand venomous reptiles and what occurs post bite.
> 
> Now that you have done all this your trainer says, "We have a few cages need attention today." He pulls out some boxes and says, "OK your turn." You look around and see the animal at the far end of the cage and pop the lid and use a hook to lift it. Inside you see a small copperhead. You use your hook to remove the snake and place it in a secure container and clean its cage and water it and place a small hopper in. You then replace the snake and using the hook to slide the lid back on and push it down to secure it. You move on to the next cage and the next cage the same way checking each one first. Finally you're working with venomous species. Though they are small and relatively harmless copperheads at least you now getting hands on training. You are deep in concentration of what you're doing when you hear a crash from behind after you just put the last box away. What do you do?
> 
> As you turn you realize that the rack holding the black mambas just fell! 12 baby black mambas just hit the ground. Scary prospect isn't it? At this point instinct should hopefully take over. You grab a hook alongside your trainer and look to be certain all the containers are still intact and no shoestrings of death got out. Yes, it was nerve wracking but all is OK and no escapes happened. This is a very valuable lesson in calm and taking in what happened what needs to be done and how important it is that when working in a hot room to know your surroundings and tool placement and where other persons are. Inside that room your life and that of any person in it is in your hands.
> 
> Eighth Grade: A joyful time! Many new specimens have just arrived and they need to be unpacked. Unlike when you're at home and get in new animals these are venomous and deadly. So no reaching in with your hands. Your trainer explains to you that when you open each crate you must be very careful as snakes might have escaped their bags. You open each box up and carefully with a hook move bags around to insure no escapes. Your trainer then uses a pair of tongs to carefully remove each bag and place it on a counter top. He tells you to prepare cages and fill a trash can with some water. You ask him why the trash can with water. He explains these animals need to soak and get rehydrated. After preparing the trash can and cages he pulls the bag flat with a pair of hemostats and places a hook securely between the knot and the snake and unties the bag. Then with the bag untied he uses two hemostats to pick up the bag and place it in the trash can to allow the animal to go directly in. Wow, a Cobra. After letting the animal soak it's time to put it in the cage and put him away. Remember to label the cage so you know it's a cobra or whatever species.
> 
> On to the next bag - it's obviously a heavy bodied animal that is huffing and puffing. You watch your trainer perform the same procedure with the hemostats and hook, then see the bag jump and two very large fangs blow through the bag. You realize that had a part of anyone's body been on it they would now be envenomated by a viper. After the shock of what has happened your trainer dumps it in the trash can to soak and you see this outstanding Gaboon Viper. It should settle in how deadly this animal is and what would have happened had it bitten you through the bag. Though bags offer some protection a snake can and will bite through one and unfortunately people have been bit during this very dangerous time of unpacking animals.
> 
> Ninth Grade: After the day before and the mental and visual lessons you just learned, with the knowledge someday you will be the one having to do these exact same procedures as yourself, you ask yourself again, "Is it worth it to keep venomous?"
> 
> Today the animals are going to be medicated and inspected for external parasites and quarantined from the general population. This is a very dangerous day as you know that oral medications mean dealing with the business end of the animals. You and your trainer are in the room and he/she is getting out the animals for proper medications to be administered. You watch as he pins a cobra and inserts a tube in its mouth as it chomps down on the tube and venom starts flowing his fingers only inches from those fangs and a sure bite with one slip. He/She moves on to the Gaboon viper pinning the head and as he lifts the snake it bites down, sending its own fangs through its bottom jaw. The fangs miss his finger by millimeters. This is one of the nasty things a viper can do and improper placement of a finger will get you bit as sure as the sun rises in the east.
> 
> One hundred percent concentration is needed for dealing with animals on this level and an understanding of proper handling. It should be said that unless it is absolutely needed NEVER handle a venomous reptiles with your hands.
> 
> Quarantine time! Many people have asked me about quarantines, So I thought I would share what works for me. Hope it helps. This is the method I have found to work best for the safety of myself and well being of my animals. Remember a new animal that is not QUARANTINED can bring in unwanted pests and diseases that can be fatal to your entire collection. Remember NEVER under any circumstances place a new arrival in the general population of your other animals. This is very tempting for most people to due but the contagiousness of certain viruses that reptiles can spread to one another it can prove fatal to not only the carrier species but also other species in your collection.Also if an animal has external parasites such as mites or ticks these parasites do have legs and will travel to other members of your collection thus infesting the entire collection.
> 
> First thing I want to say is remember to wash your hands before and after you handle the new arrival for both your protection and the protection of the animal. I always clean my hands with an antibacterial soap first then rinse with water then re-rinse with Alchol. I also use surgical gloves for handling the new arrival.
> 
> Step 1 Arrival. Inspect the container the animal has arrived in for mites, ticks and any other external parasites. If any external parasites are present in the container it is safe to assume they are definitely on the animal. At this point I would take the animal out and put it directly in to a plastic container and throw out all the packaging material in an outside trash can. Also spray the trash can with some type of bug spray that is formulated to be nontoxic to snakes. After the container has been disposed of I would take the snake and run warm water over it, rubbing the animal as to remove as many parasites as possible. After thoroughly rinsing the animal place it in clean bag and begin setting up its container.
> 
> For an animal that has been confirmed to have parasites I suggest using a product such as "Provent A Mite". This can be purchased online or at a pet shop that specializes in reptiles. I have found it best to spray the entire container and lid and allow to set for 10 minutes. Then place clean newspaper in the bottom and lightly spray again. Allow 10 more minutes to pass then place the waterbowl and reptile in.
> 
> Step 2 Inspection. Inspect the animal for any crust around the cloaca and mucus around the mouth. If any crust or mucus is found it can be a sign of health problems. At this point it is best to get the animal directly to a vet for treatment. BE SURE TO KEEP ALL MEDICAL RECORDS. I will explain why later.
> 
> Step 3 Vet visit. Place the snake in a new clean bag and take to a veterinarian. Do this regardless if the animal looks healthy upon arrival. There can be problems that only a vet can detect through diagnostic tests or his knowledge of reptiles.
> 
> Step 4 Housing. After the vet has given the snake a clean bill of health take the animal and put it in a sterile plastic box with paper for substrate. Again I still recommend using the "Provent o Mite" just in case the animal had parasitic eggs that were missed.
> 
> Step 5 Feeding. On the 7th day feed the animal. I advise waiting the 7 days as to allow the animal to acclimate and adjust to its new environment and settle from any stresses the animal may have had. Feedings will of course vary on animal and species so a best rule is to use your knowledge of the species you are working with.
> 
> Step 6 Vet Checkup. On the 30th day take the snake to the Vet for another health check. Again keep all records of these transactions. Remember you must clean the tank and waterbowl every day of the quarantine period. I always use the 90 day quarantine method for safety and health of my collection. I suggest using a dishwasher for the cleaning of the quarantine tank, water bowl and food dish. I understand this seams to be an extreme amount of work and detail but if you have a large collection the cost of not being careful in monetary value can be in the thousands of dollars. Now think of the psychological impact on you and your family at the loss of a pet. In my opinion the cost and time taken to protect both you and your animal is well worth it in the long run. Keeping in mind these animals can lead a long and productive life if taken care of properly from day one.
> 
> Now as to why keep all vet records. It is sad to say but there are dishonest persons in the business of selling reptiles. If you do acquire an animal that has ANY problems immediately e-mail the person you purchased the animal from. Keep all records of E-mails from the original agreement to purchase to any problems you have had. If the person is reputable they should be willing to help you with the cost of your vet bill or credit you to purchases in the future. Keep in mind that just because they have a Terms of Service "TOS" does not mean you do not have recourse. Many states now have laws regarding selling animals not in good health. These are known as Lemon Laws and are enforceable. However in all fairness reptiles if not cared for can have health issues surface very rapidly at no fault of the seller. If you have a vet check immediately it will prevent most problems you may have if there are any signs of ill health. Again the same applies to pet shops if that is where you purchased from, despite some of them trying to tell you they have a NO refund or Health guarantee there are some legal precedents that you can use in certain states if they sold you a lemon. Also pet store employees are for the most part there to play with the animals and in many cases have little or no practical knowledge. Do your research first and do not let them tell you falsehoods or myths.
> 
> Reptiles if not cared for properly can and will go down hill fast. It is your obligation to them to know everything possible before even purchasing one. You must be able to also properly care for the animal once you have received it.
> 
> High School
> 
> Tenth Grade: Wow it's been 8 months of learning and seeing things that should make you stop and think a few hundred times if it's worth it to keep venomous reptiles. At this point you should be able to clean cages and work the tools like they have always been part of your body. You should have an instinct about you that warns of danger where the average person would not see it. You have developed a sense of awareness of your surroundings and a calm about you and deliberate action when working with the animals. You should be working now with the species you wish to own and reading about them constantly. Contacting other keepers and asking questions about the animal/animals. Your trainer should be instructing you on the fine points of the husbandry of the species.
> 
> Eleventh Grade: Time to start the homework. Setting up your hotroom, getting your cages ready. With the cage don't skimp out and get cheap you have spent almost a year of your life now studying and learning about the animal. With so much time already dedicated to this get them a nice cage. Take the time to set it up nice with hidden hide boxes water dishes lighting and LOCKS, be sure to get your emergency protocol set up and start contacting local hospitals and find a doctor who will be willing to treat you if you're bitten with knowledge. Take the time to set an appointment with him and give him a copy of your protocol book and discuss it fully and always keep him updated on what species you keep. Inform the local fire department as well in case they are ever needed. It is also a good idea to meet your local police officers and let them know as well. Some may ask why your telling them but if a 911 call goes out many times police respond or if you're out of town and your house is broken into they will be responding. If the criminals have let out a venomous reptile you don't want the officer to get bit.Being responsible is a major part of hot keeping and that extends to person who may have to enter your house in an emergency.
> 
> The Senior Graduation
> 
> Now is the time to look back one last time and reflect on everything you have seen and the inherent dangers of working with venomous snakes. Ask yourself one last time, is it worth it? After 1 year and accumulating 1000 hours of training (as per Florida's permitting system) it is time to get you permit. You need to have documented proof of one full year at least with dates and times of area/areas you received your training. You need to have documented proof of 1000 hours minimum to accompany that year signed off by your trainer. You must have two letters of recommendation as well and be able to provide proof and knowledge in the care, feeding, handling and husbandry. All this has to be in triplicate and sent to Tallahassee for review. After they review it they forward on to their field officers for an inspection of your premises. If all goes well you will now be mailed your venomous reptile license.
> 
> This is by no way meant to be a training guide for anyone. It is merely some of what a person might go through if they wish to obtain a venomous reptile. Proper training is crucial for safety. I used the school mentality as it is a simple way to keep tabs of a process.


again, full credit to whoever did this.


----------



## Malc

StevetheSnake said:


> How can you say this??? jesus, its gone beyond annoying, i'm also starting to think you are on a wind up mission


Guys, suggest people ignore the post by James and maybe this thread will disappear down the list. - All the info in all these posts just hasn't sunk in.



> Originally Posted by *ViperLover*
> 
> I do agree, however that no matter what the animal is, you shouldn't leave the cage doors open; Its not pleasant having critters loose at the best of times, especially if theyre venomous, surely? But *surely someone has said this*, and *somebody* at some piont has left a viv door open, to quickly answer the door....Or has left an animal on the table-top to quickly grab something in another room. I know *some people that I follow on youtube* are guilty of doing this


About 100 odd posts back I described how a guy had to set up a room in his house to keep half a dozen rattle snakes. That included double doors into the room, double sets of doors on the VIV and an intercom / phone in that room. Also as an experienced keeper he would have a set of ground rules when it comes to the odd occasion where the animals had to be removed from the vivs and housed, such as for cleaning and maintenance.

Your comments come over as if people would keep a venomous snake much the same way as you would a non-venomous snake, and maybe from some of the crap that's on youtube some people do take chances. However if you think that it's cool to have something that can potentially kill you, or any of your siblings out on the table of your living room then you seriously need to re-think your interests and take up a different hobby. - 

For the record, in the 26 years of keeping and breeding snakes I've never had an escapee caused through my own negligence such as leaving a cage door open. If you are mature enough and serious enough you make sure things are secure before answering a call on the phone or the doorbell.


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## Malc

> After 1 year and accumulating 1000 hours of training (as per Florida's permitting system) it is time to get you permit. You need to have documented proof of one full year at least with dates and times of area/areas you received your training. You need to have documented proof of 1000 hours minimum to accompany that year signed off by your trainer. You must have two letters of recommendation as well and be able to provide proof and knowledge in the care, feeding, handling and husbandry. All this has to be in triplicate and sent to Tallahassee for review. After they review it they forward on to their field officers for an inspection of your premises. If all goes well you will now be mailed your venomous reptile license.


Maybe if the UK has a similar requirements this thread would of been over with long ago.



reef said:


> I mean viperlover that if you continue on the path i believe you have chosen ,you will obtain,keep,be bitten by and ultimatly meet your demise at the fangs of your desires
> 
> in short you will be killed !!!! if you don't think hard about your attitude towards Dwa species


My gut feeling too.... thing is it could be someone else that gets nailed


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## leecb0

S:censor:t missed being the 300 post oh well ill wait for 400 shouldent be too long:lol2:


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> Guys, suggest people ignore the post by James and maybe this thread will disappear down the list. - All the info in all these posts just hasn't sunk in.
> 
> 
> 
> About 100 odd posts back I described how a guy had to set up a room in his house to keep half a dozen rattle snakes. That included double doors into the room, double sets of doors on the VIV and an intercom / phone in that room. Also as an experienced keeper he would have a set of ground rules when it comes to the odd occasion where the animals had to be removed from the vivs and housed, such as for cleaning and maintenance.
> 
> Your comments come over as if people would keep a venomous snake much the same way as you would a non-venomous snake, and maybe from some of the crap that's on youtube some people do take chances. However if you think that it's cool to have something that can potentially kill you, or any of your siblings out on the table of your living room then you seriously need to re-think your interests and take up a different hobby. -
> 
> For the record, in the 26 years of keeping and breeding snakes I've never had an escapee caused through my own negligence such as leaving a cage door open. If you are mature enough and serious enough you make sure things are secure before answering a call on the phone or the doorbell.


For a start, I wouldn't keep Venomous in the living room!

And, I accept you're post Malc...I was just saying of how I'd read, or seen things on Video.


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## ViperLover

LeviathanNI said:


> again, full credit to whoever did this.


 
After a good, long read of those posts.....They were very interesting.

1000+ Hours of training? Is that the absolute bare minimum?! I was thinking it was a hell of a lot more then that.


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## ViperLover

Malc said:


> Maybe if the UK has a similar requirements this thread would of been over with long ago.
> 
> 
> 
> My gut feeling too.... thing is it could be someone else that gets nailed


 
I have no intensions of keeping venomous while still at home.

I do not feel that I have a say, or a right to bring that kind of animal into the family.


----------



## Genseric

ViperLover said:


> After a good, long read of those posts.....They were very interesting.
> 
> 1000+ Hours of training? Is that the absolute bare minimum?! I was thinking it was a hell of a lot more then that.


 
Not sure about now, but then it was (early 2000's)


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> After a good, long read of those posts.....They were very interesting.
> 
> 1000+ Hours of training? Is that the absolute bare minimum?! I was thinking it was a hell of a lot more then that.


1000+ hours is quite a long time....
Thats nearly one year, everyday for 3 hours, and how many people can fit that in everyday, bearing in mind your trainer has his own life as well...
You may get lucky and manage two 5 hour sessions a week... Thats 2 years....
And if you can only get around to one 5 hour session a week thats 4 years...
You think thats not long.... Or didn't you digest the info given you before commenting...


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> 1000+ hours is quite a long time....
> Thats nearly one year, everyday for 3 hours, and how many people can fit that in everyday, bearing in mind your trainer has his own life as well...
> You may get lucky and manage two 5 hour sessions a week... Thats 2 years....
> And if you can only get around to one 5 hour session a week thats 4 years...
> You think thats not long.... Or didn't you digest the info given you before commenting...


 
Now you meantion it...Thats quite long!

I never realsed it went into "Years"....Although I never did the math. :lol2:

However I did think that it had to be longer....Because of the experience facter and all.....


----------



## SWMorelia

ViperLover said:


> Now you meantion it...Thats quite long!
> 
> I never realsed it went into "Years"....Although I never did the math. :lol2:
> 
> However I did think that it had to be longer....Because of the experience facter and all.....


It's a shame it needed mentioning...
Try analysing info for your self. Think about what your being told.... Then post...
Not just remember facts and regurge them....


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## paraman

I have no intent on annoying people for the hell of it. I do not do it purposely.[/QUOTE]


Then it must just be a gift that you have. I do not belive anyone could learn such skills as you have.


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## stuartdouglas

James, when I was younger than you, I was mad on reptiles, amphibians and the like, there was no internet, only books and the odd "Survival" program. I think that, if there had been the people available to get information from that there are now, I would probably have bugged the [email protected] out of them with endless questions too.
It's not your quest for information that winds people up, it's the "an aquaintance of mine that keeps Easterns" and "a venomous keeper I was talking to said" type posts, and the regurgitation of info gleaned from google or previous posts.

By all means ask questions mate, it's the only way to find things out, but this hobby, at least as far as I'm concerned, is not about gaining credibility with one's peers by virtue of who you're friends on FB with, or who you were talking to yesterday or what nuggets of information you can drop into a post.

If you have a question and I can answer it or point you in the direction of an answer, I will, but I like a lot of others on here are getting fed up with the way most, if not all of your threads end up. i.e with you quoting info that you don't really know the veracity of, and making frankly, ridiculous comments about snake keeping which just highlight your lack of knowledge. Get an easy snake to look after, enjoy watching it feed, shed and grow and just...well, chill out a bit and stop trying too hard to impress people


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> I know *some people that I follow on youtube* .


The problem is that there are a lot of people doing dangerous things in these U-tube videos. I cringe at some of the things people get up to, especially when they are self professed experts who influence novice/potential venomous snake keepers.


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## wildlifewarrior

PDR said:


> The problem is that there are a lot of people doing dangerous things in these U-tube videos. I cringe at some of the things people get up to, especially when they are self professed experts who influence novice/potential venomous snake keepers.


completely agree....it was only 3 weeks ago i watched a young lady probe her royal python on youtube to show it as a guide for others, but instead of going tail end, she probed up into the stomach:gasp:...


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## ViperLover

PDR said:


> The problem is that there are a lot of people doing dangerous things in these U-tube videos. I cringe at some of the things people get up to, especially when they are self professed experts who influence novice/potential venomous snake keepers.


 
I agree entirely....Even though I am not experienced enough to be critical...I will say that even the most experienced keepers tend to get away with themselves while shooting youtube videos.

Viperkeeper for example....He may very well be an experienced keeper...But in my opinion, holding a camera in one hand, a hook in the other, standing flat infront of the viv, doing close ups with his fingers less then a foot away from the animals head (With most animals, that's well in striking distance) and trying to narrate....doing all of these at the same time. I betcha he;s had more close calls while filming, then he has when the camera is away. I have the greatest of respect for Al....But I think what he does is a little too dangerous for my likeing. He should concider his own safety before others. This is just my opinion...

Al, has influenced me a lot....But so has many of the bigger names such as Bryan Fry, Steve Irwin, Mark O'Shea. I love snakes....always have done.


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## salvatoruk

wildlifewarrior said:


> completely agree....it was only 3 weeks ago i watched a young lady probe her royal python on youtube to show it as a guide for others, but instead of going tail end, she probed up into the stomach:gasp:...


 I bet that probed Male...


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## leecb0

salvatoruk said:


> I bet that probed Male...


have you had anything new in lately mate?


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## carpy

ViperLover said:


> I agree entirely....Even though I am not experienced enough to be critical...I will say that even the most experienced keepers tend to get away with themselves while shooting youtube videos.
> 
> Viperkeeper for example....He may very well be an experienced keeper...But in my opinion, holding a camera in one hand, a hook in the other, standing flat infront of the viv, doing close ups with his fingers less then a foot away from the animals head* (With most animals, that's well in striking distance)* and trying to narrate....doing all of these at the same time. I betcha he;s had more close calls while filming, then he has when the camera is away. I have the greatest of respect for Al....But I think what he does is a little too dangerous for my likeing. He should concider his own safety before others. This is just my opinion...
> 
> Al, has influenced me a lot....But so has many of the bigger names such as Bryan Fry, Steve Irwin, Mark O'Shea. I love snakes....always have done.



you are doing it again, quoting someone who has a vast amount more experience than you, and lecturing them about the striking distance, when he knows full well of the striking distances of differant species of snakes because he has spent his life working with them

please mate, for your own sake just stop it. you are one of the most patronising and uppity members i have yet seen on this forum


----------



## carpy

salvatoruk said:


> I bet that probed Male...


if she is doing that then she most likely wouldnt have known the differance anyway, even if it were posible to tell the sex by probing its stomach


----------



## SiUK

PDR said:


> The problem is that there are a lot of people doing dangerous things in these U-tube videos. I cringe at some of the things people get up to, especially when they are self professed experts who influence novice/potential venomous snake keepers.


There was a certain guy there in particular a while ago and his videos were awful, on top of that he had hundreds of teenagers hanging on his every word, if anyone questioned his methods he would delete their comment and only leave up the good ones. The advice on treating envenomations he was giving out involved using a razor on the site of the bite, incredibly dangerous stuff, also he was a rude arrogant :censor:


----------



## salvatoruk

carpy said:


> if she is doing that then she most likely wouldnt have known the differance anyway, even if it were posible to tell the sex by probing its stomach


It was a joke! Think about it...


----------



## carpy

salvatoruk said:


> It was a joke! Think about it...


yes, mine didnt quite come across tongue in cheek enough. 

it could have been she was dealing with a confused snake, who decided that he would invert his hemipenes the wrong way. 

have you got a link to the video WW?


----------



## carpy

salvator that is a bloody stunning ahaetulla you have there - i kept its twin sibling from the americas for a fair while in the uk, striking resemblance the oxybelis and ahaetulla


----------



## Jack W

carpy said:


> you are doing it again, quoting someone who has a vast amount more experience than you, and lecturing them about the striking distance, when he knows full well of the striking distances of differant species of snakes because he has spent his life working with them
> 
> please mate, for your own sake just stop it. you are one of the most patronising and uppity members i have yet seen on this forum


 
Tiny bit harsh there mate, I know this guy has been saying some really stupid stuff recently but he did also put in the last post. Maybe he has learnt his lesson, thats certainly not as bad as arguing over V. berus' venom potency!!



ViperLover said:


> I agree entirely....Even though I am not experienced enough to be critical...I will say that even the most experienced keepers tend to get away with themselves while shooting youtube videos.


BTW ViperLover just wondering why you are so into venomous snakes as opposed to non-venomous? I have read a few of your posts and it seems as though you are reluctant to get into non-venomous and I wonder why this is. I'm not going to have a go, but I really don't think hanging around the DWA section is going to be the way into keeping snakes.

I always wonder what people's reasoning is for getting into DWA. I also realise how many years, sorry decades, experience you'd need of pure dedication to keeping before you could go near any venomous herp. Today I got tagged by my BCI, which is an extremely docile animal normally. Just imagine if that had been a B. asper or C. atrox. I would be pretty f:censor:d really. I'm not trying to be another guy having a go at you, I'm just saying that maybe you should consider coming over to the non-venomous side of the forum, getting into non-venomous (which believe me are challenging enough, particularly with FWCs, carpets, bloods, afrocks, etc.) and if you still want to get into venomous in 20 years have a think about it then.


----------



## salvatoruk

Everyone knows the best way to sex Royals is to put them in with a King Cobra (Royal keepers take note), then just leave the room. :whistling2:


----------



## carpy

Jack W said:


> Tiny bit harsh there mate, I know this guy has been saying some really stupid stuff recently but he did also put in the last post. Maybe he has learnt his lesson, thats certainly not as bad as arguing over V. berus' venom potency!!


i am not a vast amount older than him, i can remember being hugely keen, i can remember being full of a million questions. heck i still am full of a million questions, and i still am hugely keen. but he comes across as decidedly pompous and arrogant, and it isnt doing him any favours. have a read back through this thread, its not like this is the first time, it is constant. he only just told a member of considerable venomous experience that by the way 1 foot is well within the striking distance of most snakes

he is doing himself no favours, and the more he goes on the more he will kick himself for it later on


----------



## kelboy

LeviathanNI said:


> Not sure about now, but then it was (early 2000's)


It might be a good idea to make a fresh thread with those posts. It might answer a lot of questions for people. I know it did me, questions that I didn't really feel it was time for me to ask, but was curious about. I for one would definitely ask for it to be stickied!


----------



## carpy

salvatoruk said:


> Everyone knows the best way to sex Royals is to put them in with a King Cobra (Royal keepers take note), then just leave the room. :whistling2:


see i never have understood the king cobra obsession, they do nothing for me whatsoever! give me a forest cobra any day of the week


----------



## bothrops

salvatoruk said:


> Everyone knows the best way to sex Royals is to put them in with a King Cobra (Royal keepers take note), then just leave the room. :whistling2:


...s'interesting! I heard the best way to sex _Sistrurus_ was to chuck in a large _Lampropeltis_....apparently _getula_ give the most accurate results!

:lol2:: victory:


----------



## Gaboon

salvatoruk said:


> Everyone knows the best way to sex Royals is to put them in with a King Cobra (Royal keepers take note), then just leave the room. :whistling2:


:lol2:


----------



## salvatoruk

carpy said:


> see i never have understood the king cobra obsession, they do nothing for me whatsoever! give me a forest cobra any day of the week


Nice snakes but the only African Cobra I'd keep would be Naja ashei.
Asia all the way for me


----------



## Jack W

carpy said:


> i am not a vast amount older than him, i can remember being hugely keen, i can remember being full of a million questions. heck i still am full of a million questions, and i still am hugely keen. but he comes across as decidedly pompous and arrogant, and it isnt doing him any favours. have a read back through this thread, its not like this is the first time, it is constant. he only just told a member of considerable venomous experience that by the way 1 foot is well within the striking distance of most snakes
> 
> he is doing himself no favours, and the more he goes on the more he will kick himself for it later on


I'm not much older than him either, and I have been into herps for a lot less time than you I know that. I just feel a bit sorry for the guy. We all find venomous snakes interesting, and he is clearly just over keen. I would just ignore him in future, at the end of the day he is not going to get a DWAL. I did just read the post about knowing this person and that venomous keeper, etc. Its all just a bit of a fantasy. I honestly don't think he is trying to be arrogant I think it is all just naiviety and a childish want to impress people he must see as icons.

Any way, do you still have that HUGE boa?


----------



## Jack W

bothrops said:


> ...s'interesting! I heard the best way to sex _Sistrurus_ was to chuck in a large _Lampropeltis_....apparently _getula_ give the most accurate results!
> 
> :lol2:: victory:


:lol2:


----------



## carpy

Jack W said:


> I'm not much older than him either, and I have been into herps for a lot less time than you I know that. I just feel a bit sorry for the guy. We all find venomous snakes interesting, and he is clearly just over keen. I would just ignore him in future, at the end of the day he is not going to get a DWAL. I did just read the post about knowing this person and that venomous keeper, etc. Its all just a bit of a fantasy. I honestly don't think he is trying to be arrogant I think it is all just naiviety and a childish want to impress people he must see as icons.
> 
> Any way, do you still have that HUGE boa?


thing is if he does go ahead and wants to ask advice in the future where he needs advice, or help, it would be best if people took him seriously - he doesnt want to leave a bad taste in peoples mouths right now because he is potentially losing some really knowledgeable people

i have only got back from belize, and so my boa is now in the hands of another forumite that lives just down the road from me. but when i relocate to belize permanently i may just bat my eyelids and take her out with me!



salvatoruk said:


> Nice snakes but the only African Cobra I'd keep would be Naja ashei.
> Asia all the way for me


see neither africa or asia really do it for me, i have always been most interested in the stuff in the americas. i was damn close to getting a few A. prasina at houten last year, but that was the same time i was picking up the O fulgidus so i gave them a miss. 

the only stuff outside of the americas that really interests me that i can think of is Echis, a few african cobras, aspidelaps and the more obscure little vipers in africa

saying that i really do lik that ahaetulla of yours, they really are awesome. almost as awesome as oxybelis:whistling2:


----------



## moodyblue1969

salvatoruk said:


> Everyone knows the best way to sex Royals is to put them in with a King Cobra (Royal keepers take note), then just leave the room. :whistling2:


 that would be an awful thing to do,to put a poor defenseless little snake in with a ROYAL,shame on you :whistling2:


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> I agree entirely....Even though I am not experienced enough to be critical...I will say that even the most experienced keepers tend to get away with themselves while shooting youtube videos.
> 
> *Viperkeeper for example*....He may very well be an experienced keeper...But in my opinion, holding a camera in one hand, a hook in the other, standing flat infront of the viv, doing close ups with his fingers less then a foot away from the animals head (With most animals, that's well in striking distance) and trying to narrate....doing all of these at the same time. I betcha he;s had more close calls while filming, then he has when the camera is away. I have the greatest of respect for Al....But I think what he does is a little too dangerous for my likeing. He should concider his own safety before others. This is just my opinion...
> 
> Al, has influenced me a lot....But so has many of the bigger names such as Bryan Fry, Steve Irwin, Mark O'Shea. I love snakes....always have done.


I have only watched a few of ViperKeepers’ U-tube presentations (I find them really long-winded tbh). I had a look at the one of him force feeding young king Cobras yesterday..... 11 mins to feed one snake. That is really slow and stressful for the snake. 
I have force fed groups of baby cobras, death adders, echis etc. countless times. It usually takes me no more than 1-2 min to hook, pin, feed and return the snake to its cage.


----------



## Jczreptiles

PDR said:


> I have only watched a few of ViperKeepers’ U-tube presentations (I find them really long-winded tbh). I had a look at the one of him force feeding young king Cobras yesterday..... 11 mins to feed one snake. That is really slow and stressful for the snake.
> I have force fed groups of baby cobras, death adders, echis etc. countless times. It usually takes me no more than 1-2 min to hook, pin, feed and return the snake to its cage.


 11 minutes:gasp: No wander the snakes needed forcefeeding after that they must be well stressed out.


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> I have only watched a few of ViperKeepers’ U-tube presentations (I find them really long-winded tbh). I had a look at the one of him force feeding young king Cobras yesterday..... 11 mins to feed one snake. That is really slow and stressful for the snake.
> I have force fed groups of baby cobras, death adders, echis etc. countless times. It usually takes me no more than 1-2 min to hook, pin, feed and return the snake to its cage.


I saw that video....Every animal recieved three pinkies. The animals must have been stressed out, because after the second pinkie, they could barely move.


----------



## Owzy

lol what?! yeahhhhh mate!


----------



## ViperLover

Owzy said:


> lol what?! yeahhhhh mate!


 
??????


----------



## carpy

bothrops said:


> ...s'interesting! I heard the best way to sex _Sistrurus_ was to chuck in a large _Lampropeltis_....apparently _getula_ give the most accurate results!
> 
> :lol2:: victory:


same way the best way to sex Bothrops is to chuck it in with a black tail


----------



## ViperLover

Owzy said:


> lol what?! yeahhhhh mate!


Whats that all about Owzy? lol


----------



## hexem

ViperLover said:


> I saw that video....Every animal recieved three pinkies. The animals must have been stressed out, because after the second pinkie, they could barely move.


Lol you're the one who was telling mr viperkeeper porkies once upon a time, he knows what he's doing, stress or no stress, a fed snake is better than a starved one.

Any kind of forcefeeding is probably stressful for a snale.


----------



## bothrops

carpy said:


> same way the best way to sex Bothrops is to chuck it in with a black tail


That would work perfectly........


me and *this* 'black tail'.....
















:whistling2:: victory:


----------



## ViperLover

bothrops said:


> That would work perfectly........
> 
> 
> me and *this* 'black tail'.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :whistling2:: victory:


This "Black tail" would suit me perfectly! Hahahaha :lol2:


----------



## ViperLover

Mark O'Shea said:


> The Dept of Health holds antivenom to cover snakebites by all venomous snakes kept or suspected to be kept in the UK by private and zoo collections (although zoos are expected to also maintain stocks of initial doses wherever possible). The suspected to be held is important since with 95% of venomous snakes in private hands being 'underground' if you like, it is not clear what is being kept and you are fortunate enough to hold the only pair of an especially rare species and then get bitten by one of them, you only have yourself to blame when it turns out there is no antivenom.
> So I urge all keepers to send a list of their venomous species to the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine and if they have done so, and many did last year, keep that list updated. Lists can be sent anonymously and do not require your name, address, postcode or inside leg measurement, just a list of what species you keep and how many.
> 
> Moving on, the DoH does not approve of private keepers keeping antivenom. This is a dangerous drug and it needs to be kept in a particular way and even more importantly, administered by a medically qualified person with the facilities to treat anaphylaxis. The idea that someone might inject his mate who just got bitten is too horrifying to contempt and could lead to manslaughter charges. Better to keep some self-injectable epipen in the fridge to give yourself the extra time if you begin to have problems before the ambulance arrives, or learn how to do an Aussie bandage for an elapid bite. Some antivenom is just too expensive for people to maintain, single vials of Crofab (rattlesnake), Bioclon (American pitvipers or African species), or CSL (taipan, blacksnake, polyvalent Australo-Papuan, death adder) may cost anything from £600 to £1,500 a vial, and you may need many more than ONE!
> And it it goes past its expiry date most doctors won't use it.
> So you would be buying an expensive drug with the intention of throwing it away.
> 
> No A/V at home please.
> 
> Mark


I was just re-reading you're posts Mark....

But what happens if the keeper is keeping an animal, that the antivenom required is in very short hands, or there is very little in the country? Do they keep the serum incase of a bite and be frowned upon for doing so...Or do they risk it and hope that Antivenom is available in the country?

And how can out of date serum be a problem when treating a bite? Is there a small issue of the serum, being so old that it just doesn't respond to the venom at all?

Is antivenom adminsistered through serringe or is it adminstered through an intravenus drip? Does it need to be diluted prior to being administered?


----------



## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> I was just re-reading you're posts Mark....
> 
> But what happens if the keeper is keeping an animal, that the antivenom required is in very short hands, or there is very little in the country? Do they keep the serum incase of a bite and be frowned upon for doing so...Or do they risk it and hope that Antivenom is available in the country?
> 
> And how can out of date serum be a problem when treating a bite? Is there a small issue of the serum, being so old that it just doesn't respond to the venom at all?
> 
> Is antivenom adminsistered through serringe or is it adminstered through an intravenus drip? Does it need to be diluted prior to being administered?


Antivenin is very difficult to acquire by the private keeper, SAIMR will sell the polyvalent AV to individuals, in fact, they sell a snakebite kit which contains the basic initial dose of the AV, however, one would find it a) expensive and b) I would imagine they would risk losing it if it were intercepted by Customs.
It is required to be administered via intravenous drip, which means the insertion of a cannula, something I would venture that very few if any non-medically trained individuals would be able to do.
In addition, there is an increased risk of an allergic reaction to the horse serum that the AV is comprised of,
There is also the additional factor of, in these litigious times, no doctor in their right mind will administer medication supplied by an individual.
it is highly unlikely that a private keeper would be keeping a snake that was so rare as to have no avaliable AV in the UK. In worst case, the bitten person could be maintained on life support until such time as the AV could be supplied.
this is a link to European suppliers and holders of AV
MAVIN 2008-12-03, List of holding centres
As you can see, there are numerous supliers and AV could be suplied to the UK in a matter of a few hours in an emergency.
To put it into perspective, this is a list of the numbers of holding centres and vials of AV in Germany as of Dec 2008
MAVIN 2008-12-03, Summary of all species its synonyms, its zoological classification and its indicated antivenoms

it is highly unlikely that, in the event of a bite, there would be no available AV for the species, even if this were the case, with few exceptions, the patient could survive with medical management of the symptoms (life support, fasciotomy etc)


----------



## Genseric

The making, procuerment and administration of AV is a whole new world my friend... one that you could spend your life on.


First of all, go and look up how AV is made... not a test, just some fascinating stuff imo


----------



## ViperLover

stuartdouglas said:


> Antivenin is very difficult to acquire by the private keeper, SAIMR will sell the polyvalent AV to individuals, in fact, they sell a snakebite kit which contains the basic initial dose of the AV, however, one would find it a) expensive and b) I would imagine they would risk losing it if it were intercepted by Customs.
> It is required to be administered via intravenous drip, which means the insertion of a cannula, something I would venture that very few if any non-medically trained individuals would be able to do.
> In addition, there is an increased risk of an allergic reaction to the horse serum that the AV is comprised of,
> There is also the additional factor of, in these litigious times, no doctor in their right mind will administer medication supplied by an individual.
> it is highly unlikely that a private keeper would be keeping a snake that was so rare as to have no avaliable AV in the UK. In worst case, the bitten person could be maintained on life support until such time as the AV could be supplied.
> this is a link to European suppliers and holders of AV
> MAVIN 2008-12-03, List of holding centres
> As you can see, there are numerous supliers and AV could be suplied to the UK in a matter of a few hours in an emergency.
> To put it into perspective, this is a list of the numbers of holding centres and vials of AV in Germany as of Dec 2008
> MAVIN 2008-12-03, Summary of all species its synonyms, its zoological classification and its indicated antivenoms
> 
> it is highly unlikely that, in the event of a bite, there would be no available AV for the species, even if this were the case, with few exceptions, the patient could survive with medical management of the symptoms (life support, fasciotomy etc)


Oh, Good to know. Cheers Stuart!

By the way...If it's a neurotoxic bite....Could the victim be held on Life Support untill the venom is faught by the body if no AV is available?

Can this be done in worse case senarios by any type of bite? And would doing so increase the chances of amphutation by a Haemotoxic bite such of that by a Crotalid?


----------



## SiUK

ViperLover said:


> Oh, Good to know. Cheers Stuart!
> 
> By the way...If it's a neurotoxic bite....Could the victim be held on Life Support untill the venom is faught by the body if no AV is available?
> 
> Can this be done in worse case senarios by any type of bite? And would doing so increase the chances of amphutation by a Haemotoxic bite such of that by a Crotalid?


When someone is envenomated they are accessed and treated accordingly, there are complications to consider whenever AV is used so the pros and cons can be weighed up Some envenomations can be treated without the use of AV, but its a call that a doctor should make. Others, AV should definately be used as its the best chance of recovery.

If there was no AV available and the envenomation needed it, then they would just have to do their best to keep the patient alive. There are people keeping species in this country that there is no AV for, so if they got bitten it would be a case of the doctors doing their best.

We are lucky that we have some of the best doctors in the world here in the UK to assist with treating envenomations.

The differences between Neurotoxins and Cytotoxic venom are big, so you would go about treating them in different ways anyway.


----------



## ViperLover

SiUK said:


> When someone is envenomated they are accessed and treated accordingly, there are complications to consider whenever AV is used so the pros and cons can be weighed up Some envenomations can be treated without the use of AV, but its a call that a doctor should make. Others, AV should definately be used as its the best chance of recovery.
> 
> If there was no AV available and the envenomation needed it, then they would just have to do their best to keep the patient alive. There are people keeping species in this country that there is no AV for, so if they got bitten it would be a case of the doctors doing their best.
> 
> We are lucky that we have some of the best doctors in the world here in the UK to assist with treating envenomations.
> 
> The differences between Neurotoxins and Cytotoxic venom are big, so you would go about treating them in different ways anyway.


To treat a minor Cytotoxic bite....that didn't require serum say from a baby or a neonate...Would a course of antibiotics be given?

Is necrosis a form of infection??


----------



## Jczreptiles

Does anyone know if those 'venom extracter' pumps actualy work? I would imagine the venom would have done a full lap of the body before you would actualy had the time to use it.


----------



## Jczreptiles

ViperLover said:


> To treat a minor Cytotoxic bite....that didn't require serum say from a baby or a neonate...Would a course of antibiotics be given?
> 
> Is necrosis a form of infection??


 I was always under the impression that a bite from a baby or a neonate is just as potent as an adult just less capacity.


----------



## ViperLover

Jczreptiles said:


> Does anyone know if those 'venom extracter' pumps actualy work? I would imagine the venom would have done a full lap of the body before you would actualy had the time to use it.


 
I think I remember Mark O'Shea...or somebody similar meantioning in one of their Documentaries that the extracters don't work very well, and they dont get rid of all of it. Could be wrong though, I've heard of a few people using them


----------



## ViperLover

Jczreptiles said:


> I was always under the impression that a bite from a baby or a neonate is just as potent as an adult just less capacity.


 
Yeah, but less venom = less damage? So less treatment? Thats what I thought, so thats why I asked...


----------



## SiUK

The extractor pumps dont work there has been several studies on them, it was mentioned recently on the forum I think in a thread on classifieds.

Necrosis is cell and tissue death usually around the bite goes black and basically rots away (not a technical term :lol2 but it can happen at other places away from the bite area after an envenomation.

A neonate potentially could inject less and not be as bad but you still wouldnt want to get tagged by one, go back over PDRs posts and see where he explained what happened when he got bitten by a young rattler, just because its small doesnt neccesarily mean that a bit is going to be less serious


----------



## ViperLover

SiUK said:


> The extractor pumps dont work there has been several studies on them, it was mentioned recently on the forum I think in a thread on classifieds.
> 
> Necrosis is cell and tissue death usually around the bite goes black and basically rots away (not a technical term :lol2 but it can happen at other places away from the bite area after an envenomation.
> 
> A neonate potentially could inject less and not be as bad but you still wouldnt want to get tagged by one, go back over PDRs posts and see where he explained what happened when he got bitten by a young rattler, just because its small doesnt neccesarily mean that a bit is going to be less serious


 
Ahh so it's just the venom killing the cells....Not an infection inherrited by bacteria within the venom itself? I wondered why in some cases Antibiotics have been given....? A guy on Facebook sent me a link to a few pictures of a baby Puff adder bite...He went on further saying no A/V was administered, he was just given a course of strong antibiotics.

His whole arm was black and blue....probably from necrosis.


----------



## SiUK

severe bruising is caused by blood cells under the skin being destroyed. Anti biotics are given but not as the sole form of treatment, it would be part of a bigger picture, but il let someone that can explain better than me tell you the reason why and more in depth, because im not totally sure.


----------



## ViperLover

SiUK said:


> severe bruising is caused by blood cells under the skin being destroyed. Anti biotics are given but not as the sole form of treatment, it would be part of a bigger picture, but il let someone that can explain better than me tell you the reason why and more in depth, because im not totally sure.


 
I may forward this post to somebody like PDR or Mark O'Shea if I can....not sure how to forward posts. I am really unsure and confused about this.


----------



## stuartdouglas

necrosis from venom effects can't be "cured" with antibiotics, however there is a strong risk of secondary infection setting in whenever there is exposed "wet" flesh, as occurs when necrotic tissue "sloughs"
The bruising that occurs from bites is as a result, as Si said, of the venom components breaking down the walls of the blood vessels and allowing subcutaneous haemorrhaging.


----------



## SiUK

there you go, cheers Stu. Thought it had to be to do with secondary infection but wasnt 100% so didnt want to spout stuff I wasnt sure on


----------



## AZUK

stuartdouglas said:


> necrosis from venom effects can't be "cured" with antibiotics, however there is a strong risk of secondary infection setting in whenever there is exposed "wet" flesh, as occurs when necrotic tissue "sloughs"
> The bruising that occurs from bites is as a result, as Si said, of the venom components breaking down the walls of the blood vessels and allowing subcutaneous haemorrhaging.


wot he said :no1:


extractor pumps are little or no good for a majority of envenomations and only really work when the snake bite in question comes from a species which relies on a large venom veld


----------



## mad martin

> extractor pumps are little or no good for a majority of envenomations and only really work when the snake bite in question comes from a species which relies on a large venom veld


Even then, their success is limited. Venom is absorbed very very quickly


----------



## Grond

ViperLover said:


> To treat a minor Cytotoxic bite....that didn't require serum say from a baby or a neonate...Would a course of antibiotics be given?
> 
> Is necrosis a form of infection??





ViperLover said:


> His whole arm was black and blue....probably from necrosis.


I'll just say, compared to most people on this forum I know naff all about venomous snakes and envenomation! :2thumb:

I do however know a lot about the more medical side shall we say.

Necrosis, is nothing to do with infection, it is a permanent and irreversible death of tissues caused by lack of oxygen to the tissue. This could ocur due to an irritant/extravasation effect killing the surrounding cells , or by a reduction in blood flow to the affected area.

Necrotic tissue goes a dusky colour initially before turning black if blood flow is not restored swiftly. Once the tissue has gone black it is dead and will not regenerate.

Bruising is caused by rupture of bloodvessels causing bleeding under the skin or in the deep tissue. This is more likely to give the blue/black effect to the whole arm and could be caused by venoms which have a more haemorrhagic effect.

If you stop the bleeding the blood causing the bruising will eventually be reabsorbed by the body, but no amount of antibiotics will help with necrosis, as it is not caused by infection. It may be that as part of treatment, antibiotics _could_ be given to prevent secondary bacterial infection, but I'm not familiar with the procedure not having worked with any venemous snakes or in an area where snakebites are common.

I still find your questions a bit strange young man, but this may answer some of them regards the _medical_ damage caused by envenomation.


----------



## AZUK

mad martin said:


> Even then, their success is limited. Venom is absorbed very very quickly


very true but might help if if toxic shock is an issue ?


----------



## PDR

Jczreptiles said:


> Does anyone know if those 'venom extracter' pumps actualy work? I would imagine the venom would have done a full lap of the body before you would actualy had the time to use it.


We researched these a number of years ago.... in short NO they don't work.


----------



## PDR

Jczreptiles said:


> I was always under the impression that a bite from a baby or a neonate is just as potent as an adult just less capacity.


The venom of neonates is often stronger that in adult snakes.
In 2002 a 7 week old Crotalus atrox put me into intensive care... very serious bite that require 20 amps of AV. :gasp:
Right, I’m now off to do a tour for students and extract some venom.


----------



## George_Millett

PDR

I take it that it is the same bite you mentioned here. Belated thanks for posting it up for us to read through, certainly a sobering read about how nasty even the Juveniles can be.

You mention in there that you have reporting processes in place for incidents of this nature. Would you be willing give a brief outline of these?


----------



## Jczreptiles

PDR said:


> The venom of neonates is often stronger that in adult snakes.
> In 2002 a 7 week old Crotalus atrox put me into intensive care... very serious bite that require 20 amps of AV. :gasp:
> Right, I’m now off to do a tour for students and extract some venom.


 Just read your other thread:gasp:
How long was it untill you recieved any medical treatment?


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> The venom of neonates is often stronger that in adult snakes.
> In 2002 a 7 week old Crotalus atrox put me into intensive care... very serious bite that require 20 amps of AV. :gasp:
> Right, I’m now off to do a tour for students and extract some venom.


What animals are you extracting from?


----------



## HABU

all i carry is an ace bandage in my backpack in case of snakebite...










doubt i'll ever need it... i am very careful when i find things...


----------



## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> Oh, Good to know. Cheers Stuart!
> 
> *By the way...If it's a neurotoxic bite....Could the victim be held on Life Support untill the venom is faught by the body if no AV is available?*
> 
> Can this be done in worse case senarios by any type of bite? And would doing so increase the chances of amphutation by a Haemotoxic bite such of that by a Crotalid?


If the neurotoxin is of a postsynaptic type, i.e mamba venom, then the person can be medically managed until the body has eliminated the venom, if the venom is of the presynaptic neurotoxic type, i.e that found in Kraits, then unless the AV is administered quickly, then the damage is done and cannot be reversed.
Unfortunately, snakes rarely have only one type of component to their venom and it can be made up of a mixture of pre and post synaptic neurotoxins, Haemotoxins and other such delighful enzymes.

The type of venom found in most crotalids, i.e Rattlers, needs AV to halt its progress. The venom does huge amounts of damage to the tissues and i would venture that, without AV, there is a strong likelihood of amputation, not to mention the secondary effects on the kidneys, possibly leading to renal failure and death. Again, not all rattlers have haemotoxic venom, _Crotalus durissus_, has a primarily neurotoxic venom when young which progressively changes to haemotoxic as it gets older, _Crotalus scutelatus _also has a potent primarily neurotoxic venom. So as you can see it's not a clear cut case where envenomations are concerned


----------



## Ozgi

Wow, what a thread!

Was that really Mark O'Shea? There were a lot of noobs posting on here with the same writing style as the OP. :whistling2:


----------



## HABU

yeah... any hot snake will definately ruin your weekend...


----------



## gabbyboon

viperlover do you keep any snakes if so what sort and how do you keep them


----------



## ViperLover

HABU said:


> all i carry is an ace bandage in my backpack in case of snakebite...


 
You're in Ohio right?

Plenty of nice Timbers over there??


----------



## ViperLover

gabbyboon said:


> viperlover do you keep any snakes if so what sort and how do you keep them


 
Currently I don't....

I am saving for a set up, and the gear.

Hopefully may purchase an animal from Tom Charlton when I have everything sorted.


----------



## ViperLover

HABU said:


> yeah... any hot snake will definately ruin your weekend...


Or you're week....Or the rest of you're life.


----------



## ViperLover

Ozgi said:


> Wow, what a thread!
> 
> Was that really Mark O'Shea? There were a lot of noobs posting on here with the same writing style as the OP. :whistling2:


 
Yes it was Mark O'Shea...

And what are you talking about?


----------



## ViperLover

stuartdouglas said:


> If the neurotoxin is of a postsynaptic type, i.e mamba venom, then the person can be medically managed until the body has eliminated the venom, if the venom is of the presynaptic neurotoxic type, i.e that found in Kraits, then unless the AV is administered quickly, then the damage is done and cannot be reversed.
> Unfortunately, snakes rarely have only one type of component to their venom and it can be made up of a mixture of pre and post synaptic neurotoxins, Haemotoxins and other such delighful enzymes.
> 
> The type of venom found in most crotalids, i.e Rattlers, needs AV to halt its progress. The venom does huge amounts of damage to the tissues and i would venture that, without AV, there is a strong likelihood of amputation, not to mention the secondary effects on the kidneys, possibly leading to renal failure and death. Again, not all rattlers have haemotoxic venom, _Crotalus durissus_, has a primarily neurotoxic venom when young which progressively changes to haemotoxic as it gets older, *Crotalus scutelatus also has a potent primarily neurotoxic venom. So as you can see it's not a clear cut case where envenomations are concerned*


_Crotalus scutelatus _is the same as the Mojave Green Rattlesnake? I recognised the ssp....But I CBF to look it up. :lol2:

Mojave's just aswell be an Elapid! They venom matches to that of you're typical Elapid


----------



## Azemiops

ViperLover said:


> Hopefully may purchase an animal from Tom Charlton when I have everything sorted.


Really?! I only keep venomous species and short-tailed pythons, none of which are for sale!


----------



## southwest vipers

Azemiops said:


> Really?! I only keep venomous species and short-tailed pythons, none of which are for sale!


Why not sell him a nice pair of your baby taipans when they're born next year. You could coinside it with the grantal of his DWA certificate. What a good bit of luck for you both. You sell some taipans,, he gets an excellent starter snake.


----------



## ViperLover

Azemiops said:


> Really?! I only keep venomous species and short-tailed pythons, none of which are for sale!


 
I thought you were a breeder in non-hot ssp?


----------



## ViperLover

southwest vipers said:


> Why not sell him a nice pair of your baby taipans when they're born next year. You could coinside it with the grantal of his DWA certificate. What a good bit of luck for you both. You sell some taipans,, he gets an excellent starter snake.


 
Hilarious joke....:censor::censor::censor::censor::censor: :devil::whip:

What a stupid, and ********** up thing to say.


----------



## Azemiops

southwest vipers said:


> Why not sell him a nice pair of your baby taipans when they're born next year. You could coinside it with the grantal of his DWA certificate. What a good bit of luck for you both. You sell some taipans,, he gets an excellent starter snake.



Ha ha, ideal!


----------



## ViperLover

Azemiops said:


> Ha ha, ideal!


 
Lets not be mean LOL.....Although I'd love a Taipan.....But I don't think it would go down well with my blood chemistry....So....Lets just NOT!!!....NO!! :lol2:


----------



## Grond

ViperLover said:


> Lets not be mean LOL.....Although I'd love a Taipan.....But I don't think it would go down well with my blood chemistry....So....Lets just NOT!!!....NO!! :lol2:


Why do you not just talk normally?

Why not say 'It would probably kill me' instead of the above mumbo jumbo and people will probably like you better for it! : victory:


----------



## ViperLover

Grond said:


> Why do you not just talk normally?
> 
> Why not say 'It would probably kill me' instead of the above mumbo jumbo and people will probably like you better for it! : victory:


 
It was a joke!

I wouldnt even dream of purchasing a Taipan......I dont even have any experience with a non-venomous animal yet!


----------



## HABU

ViperLover said:


> You're in Ohio right?
> 
> Plenty of nice Timbers over there??


 
oh yeah... but i'm on the edge of their range...

not nearly as common as copperheads but i know a few good spots...




















here's that one that i caught and have some of... summer of '08.


----------



## Malc

ViperLover said:


> I wouldnt even dream of purchasing a Taipan......I dont even have any experience with a non-venomous animal *yet!*


I can picture it now.... midnight on the turn of his 18th birthday... 00:01 application in the post..... 9:00 outside the council office.... 12:00 down to see what the nearest hot reptile shop has.... 15:00 returns home.... 15:02 gets tagged.... 15:10 blue lighted into ICU..... ....... you can make up the ending !

God forbid it don't happen!


----------



## ViperLover

HABU said:


> oh yeah... but i'm on the edge of their range...
> 
> not nearly as common as copperheads but i know a few good spots...
> 
> image
> 
> here's that one that i caught and have some of... summer of '08.


nice photos mate....


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> I can picture it now.... midnight on the turn of his 18th birthday... 00:01 application in the post..... 9:00 outside the council office.... 12:00 down to see what the nearest hot reptile shop has.... 15:00 returns home.... 15:02 gets tagged.... 15:10 blue lighted into ICU..... ....... you can make up the ending !
> 
> God forbid it don't happen!


 
It *WON'T *happen!

Please don't attempt to have a sixth sense on my life....You are wrong.


----------



## Malc

ViperLover said:


> It *WON'T *happen!
> 
> Please don't attempt to have a sixth sense on my life....You are wrong.


What.. don't you have a sense of humor :gasp:


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> What.. don't you have a sense of humor :gasp:


 
It wasn't funny....:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Ok..maybe it was...

I just don't think you are taking me seriously when I say I have dropped the DWA keeping straight away......And am going to wait untill I am ready and learned with experience to back it up.


----------



## Malc

ViperLover said:


> I just don't think you are taking me seriously when I say I have dropped the DWA keeping straight away......And am going to wait untill I am ready and learned with experience to back it up.


To be honest James, you know my concerns. However we don't know each other, and no matter what I or anyone here has said here on this forum, there is nothing any of us can do to stop you getting a hot snake when you turn 18. If you have the support of your family, develop the maturity, and meet the requirements of the DWAL then there is nothing anyone else can do to stop you.


----------



## greenvenom

Viperlover, dont you think it would be a good idear if you spent some time on the non venomous snake section, there you will get all the info you will need on how to start up your own snake collection and you will learn how to keep corns, kings, boids etc. 
We all had to start somewhere.


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> To be honest James, you know my concerns. However we don't know each other, and no matter what I or anyone here has said here on this forum, there is nothing any of us can do to stop you getting a hot snake when you turn 18. If you have the support of your family, develop the maturity, and meet the requirements of the DWAL then there is nothing anyone else can do to stop you.


 
Incredibly true....But i'd be stupid in doing so...

No experience = certain trouble....I wonna do it slowly for my familys sake.

And NO WAY will my family support me getting a DWA animal at 18! My mum is desperately trying to get it out of my head even for 15 years down the track....It wont happen...I am determined, and I want to be successful with a career aswell as a hobby


----------



## HABU

hots don't require any PhD or spectacular talent... you just have to have common sense and use that common sense ALWAYS...

fools and experts alike get bitten regularly... saying, "OOPS!" isn't permissible at all... have a protocol, procedures and thinking well ahead whenever dealing with them in captivity are what one needs... and a generous amount of snake experience in general...

always be thinking ahead... and refrain from working alone with them if you can...

i started with common, wild snakes here a few years before i got me some copperheads was what i did...

you brits have DWA regs so that tends to weed out most of the yahoos i would think...

be tidy and meticulous... a sloppy and/or lazy person isn't well suited for hots... when you slack off and begin to be over confident... is when mistakes happen...

... never take risks or trust your hots... zero-tolerance for mistakes... because mistakes lead to accidents... and accidents lead to the funeral home sometimes...

a solid knowledge of snakes in general though is a prerequisite IMHO...










my friend's copperhead bite... from some twenty years ago...

... with perfect medical care... still had to split him wide open like a pig ...


----------



## ViperLover

HABU said:


> hots don't require any PhD or spectacular talent... you just have to have common sense and use that common sense ALWAYS...
> 
> fools and experts alike get bitten regularly... saying, "OOPS!" isn't permissible at all... have a protocol, procedures and thinking well ahead whenever dealing with them in captivity are what one needs... and a generous amount of snake experience in general...
> 
> always be thinking ahead... and refrain from working alone with them if you can...
> 
> i started with common, wild snakes here a few years before i got me some copperheads was what i did...
> 
> you brits have DWA regs so that tends to weed out most of the yahoos i would think...
> 
> be tidy and meticulous... a sloppy and/or lazy person isn't well suited for hots... when you slack off and begin to be over confident... is when mistakes happen...
> 
> ... never take risks or trust your hots... zero-tolerance for mistakes... because mistakes lead to accidents... and accidents lead to the funeral home sometimes...
> 
> a solid knowledge of snakes in general though is a prerequisite IMHO...
> 
> image
> 
> my friend's copperhead bite... from some twenty years ago...
> 
> ... with perfect medical care... still had to split him wide open like a pig ...


 
Cheers!

I imagine that was painful....


----------



## salvatoruk

Azemiops said:


> Really?! I only keep venomous species and short-tailed pythons, none of which are for sale!


Tom just come public, you two have something going on don't you?


----------



## pythondave82

ViperLover said:


> Currently I don't....
> 
> I am saving for a set up, and the gear.
> 
> Hopefully may purchase an animal from Tom Charlton when I have everything sorted.


Absolutely pathetic – why the hell would you bring Tom into your childish fantasy’s that will never happen – If Tom has repeatedly deleted your username from our forum and denied your 20 plus friend requests, why would he ever sell you a snake, you know damn fine he primarily deals with venomous snakes.

I keep asking myself, why has such a young snot-nosed kid got the attention of so many reptile keepers, well, I just don’t know – and I’m just as much to blame because I cannot stop reading your verbal tripe and should never have asked Mark to look at the thread. Clearly you took no advice what so ever. It takes a lot to wind me up, but you really have succeeded.

If you want to progress into keeping reptiles (regardless of the species) you will inevitably require help from others who have experience, how do you propose to do this if everybody dislikes you?

Grow up!!


----------



## Chris_Law

ViperLover said:


> You're in Ohio right?
> 
> Plenty of nice Timbers over there??


James,

We don't have "plenty" of nice Timbers, but there are a few. They are endangered here.

Chris


----------



## Chris_Law

HABU said:


> hots don't require any PhD or spectacular talent... you just have to have common sense and use that common sense ALWAYS...
> 
> fools and experts alike get bitten regularly... saying, "OOPS!" isn't permissible at all... have a protocol, procedures and thinking well ahead whenever dealing with them in captivity are what one needs... and a generous amount of snake experience in general...
> 
> always be thinking ahead... and refrain from working alone with them if you can...
> 
> i started with common, wild snakes here a few years before i got me some copperheads was what i did...
> 
> you brits have DWA regs so that tends to weed out most of the yahoos i would think...
> 
> be tidy and meticulous... a sloppy and/or lazy person isn't well suited for hots... when you slack off and begin to be over confident... is when mistakes happen...
> 
> ... never take risks or trust your hots... zero-tolerance for mistakes... because mistakes lead to accidents... and accidents lead to the funeral home sometimes...
> 
> a solid knowledge of snakes in general though is a prerequisite IMHO...
> 
> image
> 
> my friend's copperhead bite... from some twenty years ago...
> 
> ... with perfect medical care... still had to split him wide open like a pig ...


Habu,

I'm in Ohio as well...in Columbus, actually. Looks like you've found quite a few nice specimens. I unfortunately only made it out once this year to Shawnee, but with no luck. Made it up north and found some nice 'Sauga's though. 

Chris


----------



## Aconite

Hi Viperkeeper, 
I havent bothered to track your activity on this forum, but I am constantly on the non-venomous threads and I dont see you there. 
Come over to the light side for a bit. Read the various threads and see the stunning animals on there. 

As I have mentioned before, husbandry is so complex that you will find opportunity to argue for hours with keepers on that forum, as everyone does things differently- from housing, to how the snakes are fed, handled, etc.

If you want to learn then spend a bit of time where you will be most welcome. 
I would happily share my knowledge of non-venomous with you. 
I am sure you will find loads of tutors who will help you learn and grow. 
I feel you are pushing the limits on this thread and should move before you outstay your welcome. 

*On another note! Thanks guys!* This thread has annoyed some of you, but the input you have all given has been invaluable!!!
I have only recently become interested in venomous and cheers guys! You have put me off!!! My mother will be so grateful!
Stunning creatures and more to learn than I ever expected. But just not for me. I will keep reading on this forum from now on, but I wont be doing any hands on investigation. I am quite happy with my stunning "cuddle snakes", thank you very much. 
But just to clarify, I am in awe of you all. I am humbled, not by how "hard" you must be to deal with venomous- but rather by how knowledgeable and focussed you are.


----------



## WW**

stuartdouglas said:


> If the neurotoxin is of a postsynaptic type, i.e mamba venom, then the person can be medically managed until the body has eliminated the venom, if the venom is of the presynaptic neurotoxic type, i.e that found in Kraits, then unless the AV is administered quickly, then the damage is done and cannot be reversed.



That needs some qualification. Postsynaptic neurotoxicity can be reversed in the sense that the toxins simply block the receptor - if you can get the toxins off the receptors (antivenom, acetylcholinesterase drugs may both have an effect, depending on toxin), then the effect can be reversed fairly easily. It's rather like putting sellotape over your computer's USB port - pull it off, and you are back in business. Death adders are a nice example, where patients can go from being totally paralysed to wanting to go home for dinner in the space of a few hours after a/v or neostigmine. 

Presynaptic neurotoxins are different in that they actually destroy the nerve terminal - like smashing the USB plug with a hammer. That does mean that antivenom or other drugs can't reverse the damage (although the a/v can mop up any venom that's still in the circulation, which is obviously a good idea), so it is irreversible in that sense. HOWEVER the body itself can repair the damage given sufficient time, so the damage is not irreversible in the sense that the patient is irreversibly screwed. 

Papuan taipan bite patients that do not receive a/v before neurotoxic symptoms develop usually spend ~ 5 days on a ventilator (sometimes considerably more), but they do usually recover and go home (although they will probably feel pretty [email protected] for quite a while). The same applies for krait bites and a variety of other snakes with predominantly presynaptic neurotoxins: it takes a long time, but the body will repair the damage. So, medical management of a victim of presynaptic neurotoxicity without a.v., using just life support, is certainly feasible, although there are quite a few risks associated with extended stays on a ventilator - early a/v is certainly preferable.


----------



## PDR

George_Milllett said:


> PDR
> 
> I take it that it is the same bite you mentioned here. Belated thanks for posting it up for us to read through, certainly a sobering read about how nasty even the Juveniles can be.
> 
> You mention in there that you have reporting processes in place for incidents of this nature. Would you be willing give a brief outline of these?


Yes, that was the bite I was referring to.
Bites at LSTM are _very _rare considering the amount of hours spent working with the snakes, but if a bite does happen we have to fill out an internal accident report and the Health & Safety Executive will be informed. They may arrange a visit to check out our working practises, but ultimately they understand that we work as safely as possible and that accidents can happen.



Jczreptiles said:


> Just read your other thread:gasp:
> How long was it untill you recieved any medical treatment?


The Royal Liverpool University Hospital is just across the road. I walked across with a colleague while other Staff phoned across to let them know I was on my way in. They started examining me straight away and then ran a number of tests to confirm I had been envenomed. I was then given AV that evening and a second batch the next day.



ViperLover said:


> What animals are you extracting from?


It was just a batch of Naja haje. They needed doing so it was a treat for the Medical Students to watch some venom extractions
Now, can I just say before you start to get any ideas about looking into venom extraction techniques or dreaming that one day you could be extracting venom from your DWA snakes for research.... STOP and get any such ideas out of your head.

Venom extraction is a very dangerous and highly specialised skill. There is only one person in the UK routinely carrying out this procedure (Me) and this is done to provide venom for our research Labs. 
Private Keepers should never attempt to extract venom from their snakes, there is no benefit to the snake and it can cause damage to the snake and puts the owner at an increased risk of being bitten. Also the venom has to be collected and processed under controlled conditions that Private Keepers are unlikely to be able to provide.


----------



## Jczreptiles

The Royal Liverpool University Hospital is just across the road. I walked across with a colleague while other Staff phoned across to let them know I was on my way in. They started examining me straight away and then ran a number of tests to confirm I had been envenomed. I was then given AV that evening and a second batch the next day.
That is very handy then, you have one of the best locations in the country for working with DWA in that case.


----------



## PDR

Jczreptiles said:


> The Royal Liverpool University Hospital is just across the road. I walked across with a colleague while other Staff phoned across to let them know I was on my way in. They started examining me straight away and then ran a number of tests to confirm I had been envenomed. I was then given AV that evening and a second batch the next day.
> That is very handy then, you have one of the best locations in the country for working with DWA in that case.


Yes and some of the very best specialist Clinical help both within LSTM and Oxford.


----------



## stuartdouglas

WW** said:


> That needs some qualification. Postsynaptic neurotoxicity can be reversed in the sense that the toxins simply block the receptor - if you can get the toxins off the receptors (antivenom, acetylcholinesterase drugs may both have an effect, depending on toxin), then the effect can be reversed fairly easily. It's rather like putting sellotape over your computer's USB port - pull it off, and you are back in business. Death adders are a nice example, where patients can go from being totally paralysed to wanting to go home for dinner in the space of a few hours after a/v or neostigmine.
> 
> Presynaptic neurotoxins are different in that they actually destroy the nerve terminal - like smashing the USB plug with a hammer. That does mean that antivenom or other drugs can't reverse the damage (although the a/v can mop up any venom that's still in the circulation, which is obviously a good idea), so it is irreversible in that sense. HOWEVER the body itself can repair the damage given sufficient time, so the damage is not irreversible in the sense that the patient is irreversibly screwed.
> 
> Papuan taipan bite patients that do not receive a/v before neurotoxic symptoms develop usually spend ~ 5 days on a ventilator (sometimes considerably more), but they do usually recover and go home (although they will probably feel pretty [email protected] for quite a while). The same applies for krait bites and a variety of other snakes with predominantly presynaptic neurotoxins: it takes a long time, but the body will repair the damage. So, medical management of a victim of presynaptic neurotoxicity without a.v., using just life support, is certainly feasible, although there are quite a few risks associated with extended stays on a ventilator - early a/v is certainly preferable.


thanks:2thumb:


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> Yes, that was the bite I was referring to.
> Bites at LSTM are _very _rare considering the amount of hours spent working with the snakes, but if a bite does happen we have to fill out an internal accident report and the Health & Safety Executive will be informed. They may arrange a visit to check out our working practises, but ultimately they understand that we work as safely as possible and that accidents can happen.
> 
> 
> The Royal Liverpool University Hospital is just across the road. I walked across with a colleague while other Staff phoned across to let them know I was on my way in. They started examining me straight away and then ran a number of tests to confirm I had been envenomed. I was then given AV that evening and a second batch the next day.
> 
> 
> It was just a batch of Naja haje. They needed doing so it was a treat for the Medical Students to watch some venom extractions
> Now, can I just say before you start to get any ideas about looking into venom extraction techniques or dreaming that one day you could be extracting venom from your DWA snakes for research.... STOP and get any such ideas out of your head.
> 
> Venom extraction is a very dangerous and highly specialised skill. There is only one person in the UK routinely carrying out this procedure (Me) and this is done to provide venom for our research Labs.
> Private Keepers should never attempt to extract venom from their snakes, there is no benefit to the snake and it can cause damage to the snake and puts the owner at an increased risk of being bitten. Also the venom has to be collected and processed under controlled conditions that Private Keepers are unlikely to be able to provide.


 
Believe me Paul....I have NO such plans for extracting venom....I do understand the dangers involved with this, and would never attempt it unless I obtained a career in doing so which had it stated in the job description....and even then I would think very carefully and probably decide against it depending on my experience at the time the occupation was offered.

When you say processed under controlled conditions....is Venom is still dangerous for a conciderable amount of time out of the animal?


----------



## paulrimmer69

ViperLover said:


> Believe me Paul....I have NO such plans for extracting venom....I do understand the dangers involved with this, and would never attempt it unless I obtained a career in doing so which had it stated in the job description....and even then I would think very carefully and probably decide against it depending on my experience at the time the occupation was offered.
> 
> When you say processed under controlled conditions....is Venom is still dangerous for a conciderable amount of time out of the animal?


 
looks like someone is after your job paul!!!!! lol


----------



## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> looks like someone is after your job paul!!!!! lol


 
I'd love that job.....But no way in hell would I get it.....and I'd probably decide against the venom extraction untill I am wayy more experienced and wiser too be perfectly honest...


----------



## stuartdouglas

paulrimmer69 said:


> looks like someone is after your job paul!!!!! lol


yup, me!


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> When you say processed under controlled conditions....is Venom is still dangerous for a conciderable amount of time out of the animal?


Yes, and also in its dried, powder form it can be dangerous to work with and can lead to the development of sensitivity to venom.


----------



## Jczreptiles

Whos the guy who injects himself daily with small amounts of venom believing it to be building up an imunity? He is in his late 60s early 70s I believe.


----------



## PDR

paulrimmer69 said:


> looks like someone is after your job paul!!!!! lol


They are going to have to wait until at least 2028 :whistling2:


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> They are going to have to wait until at least 2028 :whistling2:


 
Why untill 2028? lol


----------



## bothrops

WW** said:


> That needs some qualification. Postsynaptic neurotoxicity can be reversed in the sense that the toxins simply block the receptor - if you can get the toxins off the receptors (antivenom, acetylcholinesterase drugs may both have an effect, depending on toxin), then the effect can be reversed fairly easily. It's rather like putting sellotape over your computer's USB port - pull it off, and you are back in business. Death adders are a nice example, where patients can go from being totally paralysed to wanting to go home for dinner in the space of a few hours after a/v or neostigmine.
> 
> Presynaptic neurotoxins are different in that they actually destroy the nerve terminal - like smashing the USB plug with a hammer. That does mean that antivenom or other drugs can't reverse the damage (although the a/v can mop up any venom that's still in the circulation, which is obviously a good idea), so it is irreversible in that sense. HOWEVER the body itself can repair the damage given sufficient time, so the damage is not irreversible in the sense that the patient is irreversibly screwed.
> 
> Papuan taipan bite patients that do not receive a/v before neurotoxic symptoms develop usually spend ~ 5 days on a ventilator (sometimes considerably more), but they do usually recover and go home (although they will probably feel pretty [email protected] for quite a while). The same applies for krait bites and a variety of other snakes with predominantly presynaptic neurotoxins: it takes a long time, but the body will repair the damage. So, medical management of a victim of presynaptic neurotoxicity without a.v., using just life support, is certainly feasible, although there are quite a few risks associated with extended stays on a ventilator - early a/v is certainly preferable.


 
..and yet more *huge* names join the party!

How's married life treating you my friend!?


......so with PDR, MO'S and WW on the case, it makes you wonder who else is lurking on these boards!

Great to see some true heavyweight expertise on the case!

Cheers

Andy


----------



## bothrops

Jczreptiles said:


> Whos the guy who injects himself daily with small amounts of venom believing it to be building up an imunity? He is in his late 60s early 70s I believe.


Dr Bill Haast


----------



## ViperLover

bothrops said:


> Dr Bill Haast


 
With Neurotoxic venoms such of that of a Black Mamba....It may work?? It seems strange and very risky to me


----------



## Jczreptiles

bothrops said:


> Dr Bill Haast


 Okay chears.
Is it true that it is actualy working? I can't remember where I seen this now it was on a wildlife program.


----------



## ViperLover

Jczreptiles said:


> Okay chears.
> Is it true that it is actualy working? I can't remember where I seen this now it was on a wildlife program.


 
I sent questions in to Viperkeeper for a video based on an Ask VK segment....He answered them....Heres the link:

YouTube - Ask Viperkeeper 07/22/09

He meantions Bill Haast and my questions in the final 6 or so minutes I think....maybe 7.

Anyway....I gotta get to bed, early start tomorrow. Night all


----------



## bothrops

Jczreptiles said:


> Okay chears.
> Is it true that it is actualy working? I can't remember where I seen this now it was on a wildlife program.


 
No idea! The guy is a bit of a herping legend (for better or for worse) to be fair - still milking plenty of snakes each week!

His hands certainly don't look too hot, but he is still going!

Hunter Serpentology / T.C.R.S.*

Cheers

Andy


----------



## Jczreptiles

bothrops said:


> No idea! The guy is a bit of a herping legend (for better or for worse) to be fair - still milking plenty of snakes each week!
> 
> His hands certainly don't look too hot, but he is still going!
> 
> Hunter Serpentology / T.C.R.S.*
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


 Thanks for the link, it is very interesting I did not know he was 97:gasp: and still milking.


----------



## SiUK

Jczreptiles said:


> Okay chears.
> Is it true that it is actualy working? I can't remember where I seen this now it was on a wildlife program.


Theres a few people that do it Bill Haast being the most famous, when you think about it its the same as producing AV on animals really, just gradually building up immunity using the bodies ability to fight toxins.


----------



## SWMorelia

PDR said:


> Yes, and also in its dried, powder form it can be dangerous to work with and can lead to the development of sensitivity to venom.


So would that make spitting cobras a particularly hazardous animal to keep?
Because of the dry venom on the vivs becoming airborne.....
Just a thought I had when I read your reply....


----------



## PDR

SW-morelia said:


> So would that make spitting cobras a particularly hazardous animal to keep?
> Because of the dry venom on the vivs becoming airborne.....
> Just a thought I had when I read your reply....


Yes, it is a risk. Probably best to dampen down surfaces before cleaning.


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> Yes, it is a risk. Probably best to dampen down surfaces before cleaning.


 
Am I correct in saying that Venom in you're eye....or any other mucus membranes can be just as dangerous as a bite?


----------



## SWMorelia

PDR said:


> Yes, it is a risk. Probably best to dampen down surfaces before cleaning.


It was just a thought that popped into my head having seen the smears of venom down the inside of vivs and your comment on heightening sensitivity when venom is dried..... So spitters are a double edged sword so to speak.... Well triple edged technically.....
Lucky for me they don't do a spitting boa or a spitting JCP, so I won't need to dampen down. LOL


----------



## wildlifewarrior

SW-morelia said:


> Lucky for me they don't do a spitting boa or a spitting JCP, so I won't need to dampen down. LOL


count your self lucky mate, i have a scrub python regurg a 5 day long adult rabbit on me while back...sure not venomous but deffiently scarred me for life


----------



## PDR

SW-morelia said:


> It was just a thought that popped into my head having seen the smears of venom down the inside of vivs and your comment on heightening sensitivity when venom is dried..... So spitters are a double edged sword so to speak.... Well triple edged technically.....
> Lucky for me they don't do a spitting boa or a spitting JCP, so I won't need to dampen down. LOL


Well I wear a face mask while scraping dried venom from Petri dishes and weighing it out on the balance so it makes sense when cleaning venom from cage surfaces to also take care. 

When it comes to extracting venom from spitting cobras I wear surgical scrubs so if I do get covered in venom I can change my clothes rather than risk walking around for the rest of the day with venom that will dry and I’d then possibly be breathing in.


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> Well I wear a face mask while scraping dried venom from Petri dishes and weighing it out on the balance so it makes sense when cleaning venom from cage surfaces to also take care.
> 
> When it comes to extracting venom from spitting cobras I wear surgical scrubs so if I do get covered in venom I can change my clothes rather than risk walking around for the rest of the day with venom that will dry and I’d then possibly be breathing in.


 
Sounds like you're company has VERY strict safety precautions. Nice knowing you'd be in safe hands working there.....being down the road from the hospital aswell.


----------



## ViperLover

WW** said:


> That needs some qualification. Postsynaptic neurotoxicity can be reversed in the sense that the toxins simply block the receptor - if you can get the toxins off the receptors (antivenom, acetylcholinesterase drugs may both have an effect, depending on toxin), then the effect can be reversed fairly easily. It's rather like putting sellotape over your computer's USB port - pull it off, and you are back in business. Death adders are a nice example, where patients can go from being totally paralysed to wanting to go home for dinner in the space of a few hours after a/v or neostigmine.
> 
> Presynaptic neurotoxins are different in that they actually destroy the nerve terminal - like smashing the USB plug with a hammer. That does mean that antivenom or other drugs can't reverse the damage (although the a/v can mop up any venom that's still in the circulation, which is obviously a good idea), so it is irreversible in that sense. HOWEVER the body itself can repair the damage given sufficient time, so the damage is not irreversible in the sense that the patient is irreversibly screwed.
> 
> Papuan taipan bite patients that do not receive a/v before neurotoxic symptoms develop usually spend ~ 5 days on a ventilator (sometimes considerably more), but they do usually recover and go home (although they will probably feel pretty [email protected] for quite a while). The same applies for krait bites and a variety of other snakes with predominantly presynaptic neurotoxins: it takes a long time, but the body will repair the damage. So, medical management of a victim of presynaptic neurotoxicity without a.v., using just life support, is certainly feasible, although there are quite a few risks associated with extended stays on a ventilator - early a/v is certainly preferable.


 
Thankyou WW...That answered a couple questions I had to ask...


----------



## HABU

Chris_Law said:


> Habu,
> 
> I'm in Ohio as well...in Columbus, actually. Looks like you've found quite a few nice specimens. I unfortunately only made it out once this year to Shawnee, but with no luck. Made it up north and found some nice 'Sauga's though.
> 
> Chris


 
well hey neighbor!!

you're just up the road there from me!

yeah, shawnee sucked thiss year for snakes... it stayed cool and rainy here from spring up until mid summer... it was nice towards the end of summer though...

on the flat-land it seemed nice but up in the hollows and creeks it always stays cooler because you know it takes a while for the sun to come up over the ridges and then it sets quickly... and if it's cool and that cold rain comes down, those hollows never get a real chance to warm and dry out...

it was great for the skinks and amphibians... they had a good year... but the snakes mostly hunkered down... i don't think they bred well this past season... not in the forest at least... outside the hills, in the fields and low, open areas they might have done better...

this year will be good... if it gets hot early... a nice, wet spring and a drier summer... then those hollows will warm.... those creeks you know flowed all this season... and that water is like refridgeration in the hollows... that with less sun making it into the hollows are rough on the snake activity...

... you should hook up with me this year if you like and we can do some herping!!

just p.m, e-mail or instant message me anytime......

do us some fishing too!:2thumb:











bad year for snakes but the tadpoles had a good one in shawnee!!:lol2:


----------



## HABU

Chris_Law said:


> James,
> 
> We don't have "plenty" of nice Timbers, but there are a few. They are endangered here.
> 
> Chris


 let me qualify that... they are on the state endangered species list... but,...

this is the ddge of their range so it's their frontier... they stop where the glaciation line is... they only live in the unglaciated areas right here in ohio mostly... for some reason.

so they are endangered because that is really the only way to afford them any sort of protection... and even that doesn't mean anything to the locals... they kill them on sight anyway... most probably don't even know that it is illegal to molest them and certainly to kill them...

portsmouth is a hick town to the extreme... they make deliverence look like a documentary... nothing but meth-heads, pill-snorters and in-bred idiots here...

anyway... they are doing good research here on the rattlesnakes... i was told that this one place i camp was where they had recently release some 500 timbers back into the wild...

damned coyotes... they are a big problem... eating everything... prey animals as well as the predators...

i'll be packing heat when i camp next spring just in case i see one close.. saw a few last year... but their prints and scat were everywhere... they run the ridges mostly... i'll shoot them on sight...:2thumb:


----------



## kelboy

HABU said:


> damned coyotes... they are a big problem... eating everything... prey animals as well as the predators...
> 
> i'll be packing heat when i camp next spring just in case i see one close.. saw a few last year... but their prints and scat were everywhere... they run the ridges mostly... i'll shoot them on sight...:2thumb:


In September, I was out in the garden, (Illinois) around 10pm, and a coyote came within 20 feet of me, obviously smelt deer, stopped and stood for a good 20 seconds, looking at me, and just sauntered off, cool as you like. It just goes to show how cocky they're becoming. It was unbelievable.

Unfortunately, I'm home now for 3 months.


----------



## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> count your self lucky mate, i have a scrub python regurg a 5 day long adult rabbit on me while back...sure not venomous but deffiently scarred me for life


Viperlover really liked your answer WW. Can't see why he's so interested in what you're up to all the time :whistling2:



PDR said:


> Well I wear a face mask while scraping dried venom from Petri dishes and weighing it out on the balance so it makes sense when cleaning venom from cage surfaces to also take care.
> 
> When it comes to extracting venom from spitting cobras I wear surgical scrubs so if I do get covered in venom I can change my clothes rather than risk walking around for the rest of the day with venom that will dry and I’d then possibly be breathing in.


So the heightened sensitivity will present it self how? Anaphylactic (Sp?)
shock? As in allergic reaction, 
or just the effects of the venom take hold quicker?


----------



## WW**

SW-morelia said:


> So the heightened sensitivity will present it self how? Anaphylactic (Sp?)
> shock? As in allergic reaction,
> or just the effects of the venom take hold quicker?


Initially you'd be most likely to notice an itchy nose, sneezing, a rash etc. when near venom or even just the snakes - a bit like hayfever. Once you are at that stage, a bite would then be highky likely to result in anaphylactic shock, which, in extreme circumstances and untreated, could kill you in a matter of minutes. 

PDR's advice to avoid exposure to venom, particularly in the form of airborne dust, is definitely good.

Cheers,

WW


----------



## ViperLover

WW** said:


> Initially you'd be most likely to notice an itchy nose, sneezing, a rash etc. when near venom or even just the snakes - a bit like hayfever. Once you are at that stage, a bite would then be highky likely to result in anaphylactic shock, which, in extreme circumstances and untreated, could kill you in a matter of minutes.
> 
> PDR's advice to avoid exposure to venom, particularly in the form of airborne dust, is definitely good.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> WW


 
Dr. Wuster,

Am I right in saying that dried, or venom in powder form is also at it's most dangerous stage? I imagine with all the water evapourated, or removed...The toxin is stronger to speak, and would take less of it to do the human body some serious damage.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers!


----------



## Jack W

ViperLover said:


> Dr. Wuster,
> 
> Am I right in saying that dried, or venom in powder form is also at it's most dangerous stage? I imagine with all the water evapourated, or removed...The toxin is stronger to speak, and would take less of it to do the human body some serious damage.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Cheers!


Interesting question!


----------



## WW**

ViperLover said:


> Dr. Wuster,
> 
> Am I right in saying that dried, or venom in powder form is also at it's most dangerous stage? I imagine with all the water evapourated, or removed...The toxin is stronger to speak, and would take less of it to do the human body some serious damage.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Cheers!


It's not about the quantity of venom and the acute toxicity, but simply the fact that you are particularly likely to develop an allergy against something you breathe in or get into your eyes. The quantities involved normally much too small to cause any real envenoming. Allergy and the toxicity of the venom itself are totally different issues.


----------



## ViperLover

WW** said:


> It's not about the quantity of venom and the acute toxicity, but simply the fact that you are particularly likely to develop an allergy against something you breathe in or get into your eyes. The quantities involved normally much too small to cause any real envenoming. Allergy and the toxicity of the venom itself are totally different issues.


 
Ahh!

Would a simple thing, as in the same amount of powder associated to a drop be of a concern if it leaked into an open wound, or around an open wound on the body?


----------



## HABU

kelboy said:


> In September, I was out in the garden, (Illinois) around 10pm, and a coyote came within 20 feet of me, obviously smelt deer, stopped and stood for a good 20 seconds, looking at me, and just sauntered off, cool as you like. It just goes to show how cocky they're becoming. It was unbelievable.
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm home now for 3 months.


coyotes mess with people's dogs... they either screw them or eat them... coy-dogs... those odd pups that your lab has... 1/2 coyote... 1/2 yellow lab....

then there are the chickens and other farm animals...

they are in the cities and few ever know it... they are so well tuned... they are usually ghosts... there but not seen...

they learn... that's when they get bold...

and they eat anything... bugs to turkeys...


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> Ahh!
> 
> Would a simple thing, as in the same amount of powder associated to a drop be of a concern if it leaked into an open wound, or around an open wound on the body?


I know of one person who had a cut on their hand from doing some DIY early in the day and then was working with his spitting cobras. Some of the spat venom came into contact with the cut and he told me that he felt some mild effects later on.
There are so many safety considerations when keeping and working with venomous snakes that we could spend hours discussing it... but I’m not going to as I simply don't have the time.


----------



## Owzy

Tom no fair how come you are selling Viperdick a snake and not me???

By the way saw a Russels today but no camera at the time!


----------



## ViperLover

Owzy said:


> Tom no fair how come you are selling Viperdick a snake and not me???
> 
> By the way saw a Russels today but no camera at the time!


 
He's not.

I thought he bread non-venomous aswell as it said he was a breeder on his name.

And Viperdick?


----------



## Azemiops

Owzy said:


> Tom no fair how come you are selling Viperdick a snake and not me???
> 
> By the way saw a Russels today but no camera at the time!


Hey owen, thats awesome about the Russels, where abouts in india are you at the moment?! Seen anything else interesting yet? PM me rather than posting on this thread, i think most people would like to see it disappear now! 



ViperLover said:


> He's not.
> 
> I thought he bread non-venomous aswell as it said he was a breeder on his name.
> 
> And Viperdick?


Where abouts does it say that im a breeder of non-venomous?!! That couldnt be further from the truth! And ive never given you the impression that i am going to sell you anything or even have anything for sale!!


----------



## Jellyman

I agree, its a good idea to get a non venomous snake first just to get your foot in the door


----------



## ViperLover

Azemiops said:


> Hey owen, thats awesome about the Russels, where abouts in india are you at the moment?! Seen anything else interesting yet? PM me rather than posting on this thread, i think most people would like to see it disappear now!
> 
> 
> 
> Where abouts does it say that im a breeder of non-venomous?!! That couldnt be further from the truth! And ive never given you the impression that i am going to sell you anything or even have anything for sale!!


 
I must have misread, I remember someone which has a similar name to you with RFUK Trader or something in the top right corner.

My appologies.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

Azemiops said:


> Where abouts does it say that im a breeder of non-venomous?!! That couldnt be further from the truth! And ive never given you the impression that i am going to sell you anything or even have anything for sale!!


is it not possiable he got your name some how confused with Charltons reptile shop?:hmm:


----------



## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> is it not possiable he got your name some how confused with Charltons reptile shop?:hmm:


He could of...I got your name wrong:whistling2:
Any letters come yet... Bleeding pose office:lol2:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

SW-morelia said:


> He could of...I got your name wrong:whistling2:
> Any letters come yet... Bleeding pose office:lol2:


your so funny:whip:

nah nothing come yet....but you better not have addressed it to what you said or i will be getting my head kicked in by my neighbours if they see it


----------



## SWMorelia

wildlifewarrior said:


> your so funny:whip:
> 
> nah nothing come yet....but you better not have addressed it to what you said or i will be getting my head kicked in by my neighbours if they see it


Da da Dahhhhhhhh..... What will it say this time.....:whistling2:
Don't worry, I wouldn't do that... Would I?:whistling2:


----------



## ViperLover

SW-morelia said:


> Da da Dahhhhhhhh..... What will it say this time.....:whistling2:
> Don't worry, I wouldn't do that... Would I?:whistling2:


 
I went to try and go and have a look at some snakes today....but certain :censor: were too cocksure of theirselves in the exact place, and got it wrong. By the time we had got there, my grandad never had the time to go to the correct place with me...so I couldnt go.

Now I have to wait another week. FML


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> I went to try and go and have a look at some snakes today....but certain :censor: were too cocksure of theirselves in the exact place, and got it wrong. By the time we had got there, my grandad never had the time to go to the correct place with me...so I couldnt go.
> 
> Now I have to wait another week. FML


you been letting men in white vans show you there snakes again?


----------



## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> you been letting men in white vans show you there snakes again?


 
LOL...No


----------



## southwest vipers

Viperlover, I have been reading through the comments that you have put on the forum and the replies and insults that you have received. I must say that you have handled the critisism very well. Your enthusiasm should be applauded rather than ridiculed. It is refreshing to see new and young people joining in the hobby and taking an early interest in the more advanced side of reptile keeping. If you feel you would like to learn more from an advanced dwa keeper, I suggest you contact Greenvenom who posts on here occasionally. He has a large dwa collection which I am sure he would be happy to show you and answer any questions etc.


----------



## Malc

southwest vipers said:


> I suggest you contact Greenvenom who posts on here occasionally. He has a large dwa collection which I am sure he would be happy to show you and answer any questions etc.


With all due respect may I suggest you point Greenvenom to this thread (if he's not already seen it) so he can see at first hand the responses to James' posts. One respected keeper has basically said he would refuse James entry to the park, let alone the reptile house due to James' approach. However maybe if James did experienced the adrenaline rush of being close up to a snake that could kill him it might make him realize why we've all recommend he keeps a cornsnake


----------



## wildlifewarrior

southwest vipers said:


> I suggest you contact Greenvenom who posts on here occasionally. He has a large dwa collection which I am sure he would be happy to show you and answer any questions etc.





greenvenom said:


> Viperlover, dont you think it would be a good idear if you spent some time on the non venomous snake section, there you will get all the info you will need on how to start up your own snake collection and you will learn how to keep corns, kings, boids etc.
> We all had to start somewhere.


: victory:


----------



## Chris_Law

HABU said:


> well hey neighbor!!
> 
> you're just up the road there from me!
> 
> yeah, shawnee sucked thiss year for snakes... it stayed cool and rainy here from spring up until mid summer... it was nice towards the end of summer though...
> 
> on the flat-land it seemed nice but up in the hollows and creeks it always stays cooler because you know it takes a while for the sun to come up over the ridges and then it sets quickly... and if it's cool and that cold rain comes down, those hollows never get a real chance to warm and dry out...
> 
> it was great for the skinks and amphibians... they had a good year... but the snakes mostly hunkered down... i don't think they bred well this past season... not in the forest at least... outside the hills, in the fields and low, open areas they might have done better...
> 
> this year will be good... if it gets hot early... a nice, wet spring and a drier summer... then those hollows will warm.... those creeks you know flowed all this season... and that water is like refridgeration in the hollows... that with less sun making it into the hollows are rough on the snake activity...
> 
> ... you should hook up with me this year if you like and we can do some herping!!
> 
> just p.m, e-mail or instant message me anytime......
> 
> do us some fishing too!:2thumb:
> 
> image
> 
> 
> bad year for snakes but the tadpoles had a good one in shawnee!!:lol2:



Absolutely! I agree, as well. I did find a bunch of fence lizards, skinks, milksnakes, etc. Not much else down there, though. We should definitely meet up this coming season and see what we can stir up. Fishing sounds great, too! 

Chris

Btw, my email is [email protected]


----------



## ViperLover

Chris_Law said:


> Absolutely! I agree, as well. I did find a bunch of fence lizards, skinks, milksnakes, etc. Not much else down there, though. We should definitely meet up this coming season and see what we can stir up. Fishing sounds great, too!
> 
> Chris
> 
> Btw, my email is [email protected]


 
Milksnakes sound nice.
Expencive?


----------



## Chris_Law

HABU said:


> let me qualify that... they are on the state endangered species list... but,...
> 
> this is the ddge of their range so it's their frontier... they stop where the glaciation line is... they only live in the unglaciated areas right here in ohio mostly... for some reason.
> 
> so they are endangered because that is really the only way to afford them any sort of protection... and even that doesn't mean anything to the locals... they kill them on sight anyway... most probably don't even know that it is illegal to molest them and certainly to kill them...
> 
> portsmouth is a hick town to the extreme... they make deliverence look like a documentary... nothing but meth-heads, pill-snorters and in-bred idiots here...
> 
> anyway... they are doing good research here on the rattlesnakes... i was told that this one place i camp was where they had recently release some 500 timbers back into the wild...
> 
> damned coyotes... they are a big problem... eating everything... prey animals as well as the predators...
> 
> i'll be packing heat when i camp next spring just in case i see one close.. saw a few last year... but their prints and scat were everywhere... they run the ridges mostly... i'll shoot them on sight...:2thumb:


LOL! Yeah, I wasn't overly fond of the entire Portsmouth area, but it was the ONLY place that I know that I can find Timbers. They have supposed sitings further north, and I never had any luck. Yes, coyotes are getting out of control, completely. I had one running right through a job-site in the middle of the ghetto portion of Columbus. Almost as if it didn't have a care in the world!

Chris


----------



## HABU

Chris_Law said:


> LOL! Yeah, I wasn't overly fond of the entire Portsmouth area, but it was the ONLY place that I know that I can find Timbers. They have supposed sitings further north, and I never had any luck. Yes, coyotes are getting out of control, completely. I had one running right through a job-site in the middle of the ghetto portion of Columbus. Almost as if it didn't have a care in the world!
> 
> Chris


 
i have a secret spot for timbers and another for copperheads...

i am saddened when i see big timbers dead on the side of the roads here... they always get flung into the ditches when cars hit them... i find them when i hike the roads of shawnee...

i never have found a copperhead road killed... just timbers and the usual victims...


portsmouth is a sucky town.... a lotta scum walking around...

i'm open for any good adventures in shawnee...

call or e-mail me anytime to set up a trip...

all i have to do is hit walmart for some grub...

i do want to find some hellbenders this year in ohio brush creek up the road from here...

that would be sweet...


i'm all about the woods here... i'm from cincinnati... i'm civilized...:lol2:


----------



## ViperLover

HABU said:


> i have a secret spot for timbers and another for copperheads...
> 
> i am saddened when i see big timbers dead on the side of the roads here... they always get flung into the ditches when cars hit them... i find them when i hike the roads of shawnee...
> 
> i never have found a copperhead road killed... just timbers and the usual victims...
> 
> 
> portsmouth is a sucky town.... a lotta scum walking around...
> 
> i'm open for any good adventures in shawnee...
> 
> call or e-mail me anytime to set up a trip...
> 
> all i have to do is hit walmart for some grub...
> 
> i do want to find some hellbenders this year in ohio brush creek up the road from here...
> 
> that would be sweet...
> 
> 
> i'm all about the woods here... i'm from cincinnati... i'm civilized...:lol2:


 
If you're off herping for big Timbers, then let me know so I can book my flight  haha.

Seeing a big _C. horridus_ in the wild is one of the many dreams I have.


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## crazy4snakes89

I so agree!!! way too young for the bad boys! :lol2:!!!!!!! 


I LOVE SNAKES!!! 
I HAVE A SNAKE AND HE'S DEAD SEXY! IF YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!


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## Owzy

crazy4snakes89 said:


> I so agree!!! way too young for the bad boys! :lol2:!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> I LOVE SNAKES!!!
> I HAVE A SNAKE AND HE'S DEAD SEXY! IF YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!


Find a cliff. Then see how long it takes you to reach the bottom


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## Long way down

The guy is only sixteen i doubt wheather he would get past his mom and dad, never mind a venomous snake


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## monkey26031985

ive had snakes since i was 10 now 25 my uncle keeps cobras please dont rush into it ive seen him handle his and there is so much skill involved wait untill u feel ready not 16


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## stuartdouglas

Please God, don't let this thread get resurrected! VL is slightly more annoying than being in the midst of a horde of biting mosquitoes, with their whining noise being amplified, and carrying a box of crab lice each, which all give you thrush, and scabies, and your hands are tied so you can't scratch...........

This boy has managed to p*** off every single venomous keeper he makes contact with..............please don't feed into his deluded arrogance


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## leecb0

stuartdouglas said:


> Please God, don't let this thread get resurrected! VL is slightly more annoying than being in the midst of a horde of biting mosquitoes, with their whining noise being amplified, and carrying a box of crab lice each, which all give you thrush, and scabies, and your hands are tied so you can't scratch...........
> 
> This boy has managed to p*** off every single venomous keeper he makes contact with..............please don't feed into his deluded arrogance


 And theres me thinking you liked the kid


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## Tehanu

Closed by request


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