# Mystery Rat Deaths (Unpleasant Pics) Please Help



## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

i keep my rats in my reptile room. they have been in there since september. the morning the OH did her morning check in there and all was fine. I have just been in and found 1:3 8 week olds dead (rigor mortis has set in) and 1:3 8 week olds on there way out. I have taken pics as i really want to understand what has happened. They are feeder rats but are kept like pets up until their culling.










the above pic i believe died first (r.mortis set in)










the above pic are still currently alive. they dont look it and do not move till you pick them up.

the defining factor is that i cleaned them out yesterday and seperated from their mothers (being 8 weeks old i didnt think they needed to be with the mothers any longer.) i cleaned the tubs with vivclean disinfectant spray (like i normally use), then dried, a piece of newspaper folded and put on the floor with about 20mm of sawdust scattered over. the water bottles were cleaned and refilled. they are fed on PAH rat nuggets (they have been eating their mothers for the past few weeks so its not that). The sawdust however was freshly opened for the clean so could there be something there thats an issue. 










the above pic is the sawdust i use (from wilkos)
my final worry is that one of the adult female mothers is also showing abnormal behaviour. 
barely moving
kink in her spine near shoulder blades
none of the usual stuggle when picked up
blood around genitals










the above pic is the adult female who seems in a bad way

please help, what should i do or what do you think the cause may be?

thanks chris


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

Should also mention they are kept in large rubs with fully meshed lids so doubtful ventilation is the issue.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Oh dear!
I do know rats should not be kept on sawdust or shavings as it causes respiratory problems!
They may have caught colds which worhthe added factor of being on shavings may haveade them ill?
I don't know but it's very sad!
Are you sure you dried the cage off after spraying?
They haven't licked anything have they?


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

its to do with the dust isnt it the resp problems... they have been on sawdust since iv kept them (not saying its right but mine have showed zero ill effects till today which is whats making me worried)


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

dont think its the dust thats the problem with shavings, isnt it that the actual wood is toxic? like pine is to reps?

auboise, paper based cat litter and a few other things are more suitable.

is your food off? could be a bug or maybe poisoning?


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## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

is this the first time that you have used these shavings? 
Is the adult rat on the same shavings? 
Is the food a new bag? 

The room that they are in? is there a gas boiler? Is there anything that may be leaking? 

Its either one of 3 things:

#1-poisoning from the shavings or food
#2-something leaking into the air posioning them
#3-an extremely bad viral infection but it must be some pretty severe fast acting infection to wipe all the rats out that quickly!!!!


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

pigglywiggly said:


> dont think its the dust thats the problem with shavings, isnt it that the actual wood is toxic? like pine is to reps?
> 
> auboise, paper based cat litter and a few other things are more suitable.
> 
> is your food off? could be a bug or maybe poisoning?


il check, doubt its the food as its kept in an airtight container... it must be the sawdust. I thought they were fine with sawdust like gerbils or hamsters are


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

no they arnt, thats why some that are on it are usually snuffily, get ri`s and red tears from their noses and mouths.


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## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

im not convinced that an RI is the cause for their deaths though, as you often get alot of signs before hand, not a sudden wipe out of 8-9 rats in the space of one hour! But yes, shavings are a no no for rats. Even what they are in, a RUB with a mesh lid, isnt ideal. Its enough ventilation for a mouse, but ideally, rats should be in wire cages. Ive seen quite a few rats in glass tanks with mesh lids that have come down with RIs as the airflow wasnt as great as with bar cages.

Im gonna go for poisoning. Id keep a very close eye on your other rats for the next 48 hours.


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

*reply*

if you look at the body's they look like they have starved to death or they have died through a lack of water,l'm not implying neglect on your part,but was their water bottle blocked? and where they eating their food?


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

My thought would be the water bottle not working properly and death due to dehydration. Are the remaining ones a little hunched over / shakey? Ive lost a few hamsters, mice and lemmings due to water bottles suddenly not to working


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

gonna have a check


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

all 8 babies are gone. plus the 1 adult female
of the 1:2 adults left one of the females has now begun showing signs. she is now alone on newspaper. the remaining 1:1 are now on newspaper till i get the shredded paper cat litter. So frustrating! even with the mice in the past were fine on sawdust. the sawdust i believe is defo the culprit. 

they definately werent starved... i check at nite and the OH checks in the mornings for water etc. the bottles all had the ball down so thats out.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Have you used this saw dust before? Also, is there a boiler in the room? As Rhianna said. Could be leaking carbon monoxide.
Is there any splits in the packaging where it could have been contaminated? Or is it stored where things could fall over and contaminate it?

I'm sure I've heard somone on here say all their guinea pigs died after buying bedding that was contaminated with something :hmm:


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

stevenrudge said:


> if you look at the body's they look like they have starved to death or they have died through a lack of water,l'm not implying neglect on your part,but was their water bottle blocked? and where they eating their food?


agreed...those babies look very small for 8 weeks..are you supplementing the mothers and babies with extra food while they are lactating/growing? what food are you using? 
could be the spray you used, rats do lick things a lot. or there could be a virus about 
you need to get any left off wood shavings asap , most woodshavings are dusty and that wont of helped their immue system if there was a virus. poor things


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## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

cbarnes1987 said:


> all 8 babies are gone. plus the 1 adult female
> of the 1:2 adults left one of the females has now begun showing signs. she is now alone on newspaper. the remaining 1:1 are now on newspaper till i get the shredded paper cat litter. So frustrating! even with the mice in the past were fine on sawdust. the sawdust i believe is defo the culprit.
> 
> they definately werent starved... i check at nite and the OH checks in the mornings for water etc. the bottles all had the ball down so thats out.


I dont think the shavings have been the culprit in being bad for rats in general. I think there may have been something wrong with the shavings (poisons in the bag maybe). 

As i said above, although shavings are not ideal, it wouldnt wipe out your rats like this! An RI would take a good few days/weeks to do this and you see plenty signs before hand. 

I would get the left over bag tested. it may be pine wood they have used (Poisonous) or there may be an insecticide or pesticide in the wood shavings. I would also have a word with wilkinsons and see if they can provide additional information about the shavings...


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

em_40 said:


> Have you used this saw dust before? Also, is there a boiler in the room? As Rhianna said. Could be leaking carbon monoxide.
> Is there any splits in the packaging where it could have been contaminated? Or is it stored where things could fall over and contaminate it?
> 
> I'm sure I've heard somone on here say all their guinea pigs died after buying bedding that was contaminated with something :hmm:


i have used this sawdust for months but this was the first use out of this particular bag.
there is a boiler in the room! :eek4: now im :censor:g worrying!


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

ami_j said:


> agreed...those babies look very small for 8 weeks..are you supplementing the mothers and babies with extra food while they are lactating/growing? what food are you using?
> could be the spray you used, rats do lick things a lot. or there could be a virus about
> you need to get any left off wood shavings asap , most woodshavings are dusty and that wont of helped their immue system if there was a virus. poor things


7 weeks sorry, 8 on saturday. while they were lactating i gave the mums morios. normal food is PAH rat nuggets 



Rhianna.J said:


> I dont think the shavings have been the culprit in being bad for rats in general. I think there may have been something wrong with the shavings (poisons in the bag maybe).
> 
> As i said above, although shavings are not ideal, it wouldnt wipe out your rats like this! An RI would take a good few days/weeks to do this and you see plenty signs before hand.
> 
> I would get the left over bag tested. it may be pine wood they have used (Poisonous) or there may be an insecticide or pesticide in the wood shavings. I would also have a word with wilkinsons and see if they can provide additional information about the shavings...


will definitely be doing this, thanks


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

You should have a carbon monoxide alarm in the room as you would a fire alarm.
Didn't mean to worry you, just best to check all of the possibilities, especially if you have other pets in the room. Have any of those been showing any ill effects?
It's more likely something has contaminated the shavings, might want to get the boiler checked anyway.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

cbarnes1987 said:


> 7 weeks sorry, 8 on saturday. while they were lactating i gave the mums morios. normal food is PAH rat nuggets
> 
> 
> 
> will definitely be doing this, thanks


they need more protein than that for growth, the nuggets are for adult pet rats...females and babies need alot more by the way of food. baby food, scrambled egg, curly kale, tuna etc. plus nugget rat food isnt that great, rats are natural foragers. i had a friend whose rats wouldnt touch it neither will my own rats..your rats will be better off as will be your pocket if you consider a shunamite type mix...google the shunamite diet for more info


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

em_40 said:


> You should have a carbon monoxide alarm in the room as you would a fire alarm.
> Didn't mean to worry you, just best to check all of the possibilities, especially if you have other pets in the room. Have any of those been showing any ill effects?
> It's more likely something has contaminated the shavings.


in the same room is a tort, beardie, boa, royal, corn and a hognose... all fine as far as i can see


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

cbarnes1987 said:


> in the same room is a tort, beardie, boa, royal, corn and a hognose... all fine as far as i can see


Cant you take the rats out of the room to see if the rest survive?


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

Shell195 said:


> Cant you take the rats out of the room to see if the rest survive?


sorry i get what you mean... yeah i have done now


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

I think you have a Virus in your rats. My guess would be SDAV or Sendai.
You need to quarantine for a good few weeks.

Health Guide: Sendai Virus (SV)
National Fancy Rat Society


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

Minerva said:


> I think you have a Virus in your rats. My guess would be SDAV or Sendai.
> You need to quarantine for a good few weeks.
> 
> Health Guide: Sendai Virus (SV)
> National Fancy Rat Society


thank you
they did have the following symptoms

Sneezing
Hunched posture
Respiratory distress
Labored breathing
Failure to thrive in surviving babies and young rats
Anorexia


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

cbarnes1987 said:


> thank you
> they did have the following symptoms
> 
> Sneezing
> ...


You made it sound all so sudden, I didnt realise they had all these symptoms!


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

Shell195 said:


> You made it sound all so sudden, I didnt realise they had all these symptoms!


it was sudden.

10am... fine
5pm... symptoms - some already dead
7pm... 9 dead - 1 more showing symptoms


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## Cornsnakeinthemirror (Jun 12, 2011)

cbarnes1987 said:


> its to do with the dust isnt it the resp problems... they have been on sawdust since iv kept them (not saying its right but mine have showed zero ill effects till today which is whats making me worried)


It shouldn't be a problem.. I've always used pet wood shavings: I've even used lavender wood shavings from PAH (Amazing stuff) anyway.. ym hamster (dwarf-chinese) lived for 5 1/2 - 6 years! :no1:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

But that's a hamster!
Rats really should not be on shavings... It causes respiratory problems...


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## Rhianna.J (Nov 5, 2011)

yeah shavings are fine for hamsters and mice but not rats.


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## Cornsnakeinthemirror (Jun 12, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> But that's a hamster!
> Rats really should not be on shavings... It causes respiratory problems...


Oops! :blush: I was just trying to offer some information from my own experience- obviously not with a rat, just thought it may be of use to the OP. Oh well, one day something I say we be 100% correct (tehee) :blush: :blush: :blush:


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

Rhianna.J said:


> yeah shavings are fine for hamsters and mice but not rats.


Funny, my rats have been fine on shavings for several generations without a single problem : victory:

I had a thought about the water supply.
Could your water board have put cleaning agent in the water before you topped the rat water bottles up.
I've seen animals get very ill, even die, if their water was cloudy because of additives used by the water board.
Always make sure the taps run for a while before you collect water for pets.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

I think it is more likely to be food related than shaving related. If the grain used to make the feed has got damp & then mould spores grow on it then it can produce some very nasty results when it's eaten :devil:. I am sure this is the reason why i lost litters of rabbits & Doe's quite a few years back. I changed to a different food & was fine after that :2thumb:. To the OP [email protected] food isn't very good, get them onto either rat cubes or Sow pellets & then add some complete dog food (biscuit) & rabbit mix to it & this will give a good diet for the rats :2thumb:.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

and when they have babies lob some hard boiled eggs in and the carcass from your roast chicken, bones and all, and they`ll have lovely glossy smooth coats too.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Rach1 said:


> Rats really should not be on shavings... It causes respiratory problems...


This isn't actually true, many top breeders and pet owners keep their rats on shavings - these days shavings sold for pets are very well dust extracted and safe.

The shavings thing, I feel is rather a myth perpetuated by a certain forum


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## cbarnes1987 (Feb 2, 2010)

UPDATE:
The remaining 1:1 adults are absolutely fine, eating the same food, drinking the same water and back in the rep room since yesterday... so the reason? not a clue!
thanks to all who helped me though


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

iv always used shavings with rats and mice and never had a problem mine get hay/ straw on top also which they make nests out of.


very odd.


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## hedgeweasel (Oct 28, 2011)

JulieNoob said:


> This isn't actually true, many top breeders and pet owners keep their rats on shavings - these days shavings sold for pets are very well dust extracted and safe.
> 
> The shavings thing, I feel is rather a myth perpetuated by a certain forum


depends on your definition of 'top' 

anyway i have to agree just RI wouldn't have killed several animals in one go, but i have to agree with those who suggest adding more protein to their diet because my first thought was the poor babies do look quite small for their age.

I don't think i can add anymore about what it could be, so difficult, it could be a virus as others have said to pass around that fast.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

the lack of protein would explain the staring coats.

i`d add egg, chicken and dried pasta and bits of veg to their diet.


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> But that's a hamster!
> Rats really should not be on shavings... It causes respiratory problems...



thats not completly true i have a pet rat, who iv had for 6 months now almost 7 months, his been on shavings all his life and hes fit a fiddle  running climbing eating drinking his perfectly fine.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

That as may be BUT I have read a few articles etc stating shavings are not the best and I don't want to be responsible for my rats getting a respiratory problem!
I used to keep mine on shavings years ago and found they did cough and sneeze a lot... And several had to go on Baytril due to coughs etc!
So, Ill stick to megazorb or paper etc!


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## hedgeweasel (Oct 28, 2011)

JakeTheDragon said:


> thats not completly true i have a pet rat, who iv had for 6 months now almost 7 months, his been on shavings all his life and hes fit a fiddle  running climbing eating drinking his perfectly fine.



and i've been smoking for 15 years and i'm fine, 

also rats really should be kept in at least pairs as they are naturally very social animals


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I tried shavings with mine and one was really terrible with it, always had cold-like symtoms (she was pretty bed with hay too), the other was perfectly fine with both. Just because up until now your one rat may be fine doesn't mean that they all will be and if they devlop cold-like symptoms it could be the bedding.
An RI still won't kill in a day though, though I do wander how many people think it's ok for a rat to be sneezing all the time. They seem to thinks it's ok at local petshops.


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## technomouse (Aug 13, 2009)

Definitely sounds like a virus to me. 
Shavings aren't the worst thing in the world, i prefer aubiose though - whatever your stance is on whether or not shavings cause resp issues, surely if there is another alternative, it's better not to risk it? 

(I had a cage on shavings a few weeks ago, and they STANK within 6 days, unlike the 14 days that i can leave aubiose)


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

hedgeweasel said:


> and i've been smoking for 15 years and i'm fine,
> 
> also rats really should be kept in at least pairs as they are naturally very social animals



yes i know that but mine atatcks other males...so we can not pair him.....but after his gone.. im getting three brothers....


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

em_40 said:


> I tried shavings with mine and one was really terrible with it, always had cold-like symtoms (she was pretty bed with hay too), the other was perfectly fine with both. Just because up until now your one rat may be fine doesn't mean that they all will be and if they devlop cold-like symptoms it could be the bedding.
> An RI still won't kill in a day though, though I do wander how many people think it's ok for a rat to be sneezing all the time. They seem to thinks it's ok at local petshops.



my rat doesent spend that long in his cage as i take food out with me, and he comes along in my bag round my waist he climbs to my shoulder and back down for somthing to eat the only time his in his cage is to eat... but i have shavings because my local store doesent sell any others..... i might as mt dad to order them in.....my rat doesent sneeze wen im around... though


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

JakeTheDragon said:


> yes i know that but mine atatcks other males...so we can not pair him.....but after his gone.. im getting three brothers....


Neuter him then?


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

withs rat you need a professional and im sorry i dont have that money to slash out......


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry, but what then happens if he takes ill and needs veterinary treatment?


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

wll thats fine ill do it...but if his happy as it is....theres no need to spend money on castrating him.... when he doesent need to be....its not upto me to get another rats it my perants and trhey dont want another one till he goes.... then they said i can get a pair.....but if he needs treatment hell get it ....im just not going to splash out money if i dont need to....sorry if it seems im being harsh im just bein open minded, or commen sense....


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

JakeTheDragon said:


> wll thats fine ill do it...but if his happy as it is....theres no need to spend money on castrating him.... when he doesent need to be....its not upto me to get another rats it my perants and trhey dont want another one till he goes.... then they said i can get a pair.....but if he needs treatment hell get it ....im just not going to splash out money if i dont need to....sorry if it seems im being harsh im just bein open minded, or commen sense....



What you have to look at is the Animal Welfare act, it states in there that animals must be able to exhibit natural behaviours, also their need to be housed with others of their kind. You are stopping yours from being able to do this by keeping it on it's own. They are highly social animals & need to be kept in groups or at least pairs so they can interact with each other & display natural behaviour :2thumb:. You might like to read about the act here... ARCHIVE: Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Bill 

You may want to show the act to your parents too so they are aware of it.
http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/act/affect.htm#2


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

they are aware of it i cant force my perants to get another rat.....i full understand that...but my perants arnt the most easy people to get along with and convince, it was hard enouth trying to get the rat but they said.....after winston you may get 2-3 rats...but not now his bonded with you and no other animal he attacks other rats as we have already tryed....and getting him nueterd wont change a thing its just him, his an adult an trying to introduce to adult males is near impossible...


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I can kind of see what you are saying and of what you say about your folks is true it's a bit difficult!
Maybe treat this as a learning curve! 
If your rat is bonded to you then it may be passable in This one occasion but don't make the same mistake twice!


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

JakeTheDragon said:


> and getting him nueterd wont change a thing its just him, his an adult an trying to introduce to adult males is near impossible...


BUT if he were neutered you could put him with females ...


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> I can kind of see what you are saying and of what you say about your folks is true it's a bit difficult!
> Maybe treat this as a learning curve!
> If your rat is bonded to you then it may be passable in This one occasion but don't make the same mistake twice!



yes i understand that after him im getting three brother or sisters......i first seen him on my work exp....i was in a petshop i always seen rats as vermin...but here was this lil puff ball, looking sickly and skinny i took him out and held him...i swear i fell in love with this lil guy i done all my work in the pet shop with him on my shoulder....and at the end of the week i brought him home....his never left my side always on my shoulder or in my hood/hoodie pockets  we think he was took away from his mom to early and he dident devlope the "manners" he would have from his mother....


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

JulieNoob said:


> BUT if he were neutered you could put him with females ...



that isent fair on him...he shouldent have to be neuterd liek i said my perants wont allow another rat...untill his gone.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Just to throw this in the mix, we once rehomed a male ray exactly the same as this!
He hated other rats and fought violently with them... He also hated men!
He was a baby with me... Nibbled me and Licked me bit my boyfriend at the time was violently attacked anytime he went near him!
In the end he hd to go back... The reduce centre did neuter him but it made no difference ..... I think he ended up staying there as he was so aggro with other rats!


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## JakeTheDragon (Dec 19, 2011)

Rach1 said:


> Just to throw this in the mix, we once rehomed a male ray exactly the same as this!
> He hated other rats and fought violently with them... He also hated men!
> He was a baby with me... Nibbled me and Licked me bit my boyfriend at the time was violently attacked anytime he went near him!
> In the end he hd to go back... The reduce centre did neuter him but it made no difference ..... I think he ended up staying there as he was so aggro with other rats!


 
 th eonly type my rat doesent like is the people who pick him up off my shoulder he turn round and bit someone before, i did warn them hell bite if your scare him, they dident listen in result they threw him to ground..me being very short temperd hit the kid for it..i took him to the vet he had a sprained leg, strudy thing he is...now wen he sees strangers he hides away in my hood


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## hedgeweasel (Oct 28, 2011)

JakeTheDragon said:


> his an adult an trying to introduce to adult males is near impossible...


sorry I wasn't going to get involved in trying to persuade you but I just had to comment on this particular bit. Rubbish tbh, adult males may take a little bit of time to introduce but it so not impossible, i have done it many times with no problems. I am not saying that its always easy or that no rat ever needs castrating but it is perfectly possible.


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

hedgeweasel said:


> sorry I wasn't going to get involved in trying to persuade you but I just had to comment on this particular bit. Rubbish tbh, adult males may take a little bit of time to introduce but it so not impossible, i have done it many times with no problems. I am not saying that its always easy or that no rat ever needs castrating but it is perfectly possible.


I second this, I currently have a group of 24 intact males and 1 neutered buck, all different ages from 9 weeks to 3.5 years, and introductions went fine.

With a little time and patience, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that most rats will get on ok, just the odd one or two which need a little intervention.


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## Nightfirez (Sep 28, 2010)

hmm back on topic 

have you ruled out heat execution ? could easily have been to high room temp


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