# Lynxs in Scotland



## Tyrael

I remember reading a couple of months ago that Lynxs are being reintroduced to Scotland, does anybody know any more about this?

Or have an opinion?


----------



## feorag

I've never heard anything about that.

Remembering how many objections were raised when a guy in Ardfern who reintroduced wolves way back over 20 years ago and again a couple of years ago when the guy up in the highlands was trying to reintroduce wolves and bears, I can't imagine that this will be a popular exercise if it's true.


----------



## Graham

I've heard the idea mentioned many times, but haven't seen anything about anyone actually doing it? I can see the point in re-establishing natural ecosystems with large predators at the top of the food chain, but there's a few sheep farmers who won't like the idea of Lynx taking their lambs, unfortunately the countryside is no longer as wild and natural as it was when they last lived in the highlands.


----------



## Tyrael

I'm remembered now, it was on a poster at my local vets that I noticed it.


----------



## Zerox Z21

I did a study on re-introduction of large predators for the first year of my zoology course. Lynx are by far the most suitable choice, having 0 human attacks to their name (unlike the others) and also being far less likely to attack livestock, if at all. Though personally I advocate a reintroduction of all of them, human colonisation has reduced the suitable large areas of land they require. Lynx also would need less, being smaller than bears and solitary; a large wolf pack needs a much larger territory. So they have the best chance at present.
Scotland as such is most suitable for reintroductions due to the larger natural spaces left there.

As for farmers, they should just contain their animals if you ask me. Not fair on wildlife to allow it access to free food, then complain when it predates as is natural. Just use electrified, secure fences or something. Can't believe it would be especially difficult. It's like those gamekeepers you hear about poisoning raptors because they take the odd grouse; not really fair at all, there's hardly any natural space left without killing the few predators left because they dare to hunt. At least it's possible to keep land based predators of large livestock out with fencing.

I'm all for it, not fair for humans to hog the entire country (as some people seem to complain at the concept), it's not like you'd have bears breaking your front door down.

Not aware of any current plans though, other than general discussion.


----------



## ForeverHams

Theres been a fair bit of media coverage regarding the possible reintroduction, largely focused around the natural cull of deer.

| The Sun |News|Scottish News

Ignoring the moronic way in which this article is written including the fact they have used a caracal for the image instead of a European Lynx... i genuinely cannot find polite words to describe the idiot this author obviously is ... "blood thirsty big cats"

The main talking points have centred around deer control although a few people have correctly raised the point that the deer issues particularly in scotland are with Red Deer which are too big for lynx to tackle as prey (other than calves). Obviously species such as Roe Deer and Rabbits would be taken as prey but the lynx are liekly to have little or no effect on out of control Red Deer population.

I see little or no mileage in this reintroduction simply because of the ignorance and unwillingness of much of the british public. if you look at the results of the attempts to reintroduce wolves in Alladale... despite the fact they were willing to spends thousands fencing off a massive area to keep the wolves fenced in the ramblers association campaigned against it. I find it amusing that these people who choose to hike britains due to their love of nature believe that their right to walk somewhere outweighs the existence of a species...

Alladale and the Reintroduction of Wolves | Securing access for walkers | Ramblers, Britain's Walking Charity

I'm not quite sure who they think they are... a punch of jumped up pole bearing hikers...

excuse the rant


----------



## Montage_Morphs

Not so much related, but somewhere to see Lynx in Scotland. I just saw the lovely Lynx at the Highland Wildlife park last weekend. They are in tip top condition and look happy enough. Well worth a visit, if not for the magnificent polar bears and the very busy snow monkey colony! Oh and their Wolves just had 5 cubs!


----------



## feorag

ForeverHams said:


> I see little or no mileage in this reintroduction simply because of the ignorance and unwillingness of much of the british public. if you look at the results of the attempts to reintroduce wolves in Alladale... despite the fact they were willing to spends thousands fencing off a massive area to keep the wolves fenced in the ramblers association campaigned against it. I find it amusing that these people who choose to hike britains due to their love of nature believe that their right to walk somewhere outweighs the existence of a species...
> 
> Alladale and the Reintroduction of Wolves | Securing access for walkers | Ramblers, Britain's Walking Charity
> 
> I'm not quite sure who they think they are... a punch of jumped up pole bearing hikers...
> 
> excuse the rant


This was the problem the guy who introduced them into Ardfern had! He had a huge area of land which he securely fenced and then introduced his wolves. The locals were up in arms about 'dangerous animals' in their area and then one day some idiot cut the fence and some wolves escaped, causing an outcry and the wolves were shot!


----------



## Zerox Z21

I'll just say this: I hate people.


----------



## feorag

In circumstances like this, I agree with you.


----------



## Kuja

Zerox Z21 said:


> I'll just say this: I hate people.


Agreed people suck, were quite parasitic in our ways.

But yeah, not heard anything about this myself but it would be nice, reintroduction is always a good thing imo, sod the walkers, i like a good walk, part of my enjoyment is seeing the different animals, they don't seem to understand that though its all doom and gloom lol never about the positives.


----------



## Drayvan

Im all for it, in fact, to me this would be wildlife tourism in its best light...I know i'd pay a fair amount to be able to see and photograph lynx back in its natural habitat. The economy needs a boost after all! From what i've heard one of the main arguments for the re-introduction is to aid in the control of Roe deer numbers. From the bits and bobs i've read it seems that the guy responsible for the Osprey project up in Scotland is going to be involved in the Lynx project, and as far as im aware they're looking at getting it established over the next 50 years :gasp: 

I really cant remember where I got the info from, possibly from the BBC Wildlife magazine when they did an article about it some time ago : victory:


----------



## Tyrael

I quite regularly mention to my psychiatrist that the main reason I would happily press a button to eradicate humanity, is the way in which we bully the planet, wiping out animals who have as much right as us to be here. However, I also drive, so I'm a hypocrite.


----------



## feorag

There's no question there's a bit of hypocrite in us all if the truth were known, but I have to agree that it really ssipes me off when people blame other animals and species for wiping out an indigenous species, when in fact it's our interference that has caused it. Red squirrels being a prime example! :bash:


----------



## Zerox Z21

Tyrael said:


> I quite regularly mention to my psychiatrist that the main reason I would happily press a button to eradicate humanity, is the way in which we bully the planet, wiping out animals who have as much right as us to be here. However, I also drive, so I'm a hypocrite.


As soon as am able, I have every intention of having a fully electric car (as far as I know, current models are a bit naff). Pair that with a house roof layered in solar panels, 100% green energy for free, which includes the car assuming I can store enough surplus.

I agree in many ways with your statement, though perhaps reducing humans to a pre-technological state as we ourselves are included in natural fauna. As was our movement across the world and...where do we draw the line between natural/unnatural effects on other species? Certainly North and South America colliding had a huge impact on many species. I do agree we've crossed a line a LONG time ago. And seeing our technology go would be very sad, as there goes our hobby, our knowledge of things across the world and this very forum  If only we could moderate ourselves. Like that'll ever happen though! Nothing short of a hivemind could sort us out so we actually live in harmony with the world and each other.


----------



## bothrops

Drayvan said:


> Im all for it, in fact, to me this would be wildlife tourism in its best light...I know i'd pay a fair amount to be able to see and photograph lynx back in its natural habitat. The economy needs a boost after all! From what i've heard one of the main arguments for the re-introduction is to aid in the control of Roe deer numbers. From the bits and bobs i've read it seems that the guy responsible for the Osprey project up in Scotland is going to be involved in the Lynx project, and as far as im aware they're looking at getting it established over the next 50 years :gasp:
> 
> I really cant remember where I got the info from, possibly from the BBC Wildlife magazine when they did an article about it some time ago : victory:



I saw this guy the other day on The One Show. 

BBC iPlayer - The One Show: 12/10/2012

fast forward to 10.50 for the VT. (if you want to avoid Alan Carr and Chris Evans eating posh hot dogs!)

He talks about the osprey and there is a little bit at the end when he talks about the reintroduction of the lynx.

:2thumb:


----------



## Drayvan

bothrops said:


> I saw this guy the other day on The One Show.
> 
> BBC iPlayer - The One Show: 12/10/2012
> 
> fast forward to 10.50 for the VT. (if you want to avoid Alan Carr and Chris Evans eating posh hot dogs!)
> 
> He talks about the osprey and there is a little bit at the end when he talks about the reintroduction of the lynx.
> 
> :2thumb:


Oh wow, I never realised he was involved with the beaver reintroduction as well. Amazing what one person can do  Thanks for the link :no1: Hopefully the Lynx project catches on eventually like the others have!


----------



## feorag

Cheers for that! :2thumb: I missed it, but it was very interesting! I hope he's successful too.


----------



## NickBenger

It would be great to re-introduce Lynx!How exciting would that be!The lack of large predators we have in the U.K is saddening especially when you look back to what we've had in the past.


----------



## Zerox Z21

NickBenger said:


> It would be great to re-introduce Lynx!How exciting would that be!The lack of large predators we have in the U.K is saddening especially when you look back to what we've had in the past.


The wonders of the recent past are indeed saddening. I get similar vibes from island situations (such as New Zealand), Australia, Madagascar etc...I'm sure there's more.


----------



## jonodrama

I spent a week in Scotland on a uni study tour, we spoke to a few really good land managers and rangers, they all said that Lynx would be a great idea for controlling deer, something that everyone has to do including the RSPB, and will happen in our lifetime
. Many spoke off the record saying that someone (mega rich land owners) will do it illegally as an experiment. in the next few years
We also went to the Scottish Beaver Project (no s******ing at the back!) it took years for funding and all the details to be put into place, with so many considerations. Another population has been illegally introduced with some problems, including giving the proper govn backed project a bad name.

I also read an report a few years back saying that we have some great areas of habitat suitable for the Iberian Lynx, which is extremely rare and smaller than Eurasian Lynx, their main prey item is rabbits which would be great


----------



## feorag

Were the beavers at Aigas up by Inverness? They introduced them a few years back.


----------



## jonodrama

feorag said:


> Were the beavers at Aigas up by Inverness? They introduced them a few years back.


Beavers are back in Scotland!


----------



## feorag

That's interesting! So are you saying the Aigas estate are the ones who have done it illegally, cos they introduced them about 5 or 6 years ago and I would have thought, with their reputation, that they would have done it right.


----------



## Mynki

ForeverHams said:


> Theres been a fair bit of media coverage regarding the possible reintroduction, largely focused around the natural cull of deer.
> 
> | The Sun |News|Scottish News
> 
> Ignoring the moronic way in which this article is written including the fact they have used a caracal for the image instead of a European Lynx... i genuinely cannot find polite words to describe the idiot this author obviously is ... "blood thirsty big cats"
> 
> The main talking points have centred around deer control although a few people have correctly raised the point that the deer issues particularly in scotland are with Red Deer which are too big for lynx to tackle as prey (other than calves). Obviously species such as Roe Deer and Rabbits would be taken as prey but the lynx are liekly to have little or no effect on out of control Red Deer population.
> 
> I see little or no mileage in this reintroduction simply because of the ignorance and unwillingness of much of the british public. if you look at the results of the attempts to reintroduce wolves in Alladale... despite the fact they were willing to spends thousands fencing off a massive area to keep the wolves fenced in the ramblers association campaigned against it. I find it amusing that these people who choose to hike britains due to their love of nature believe that their right to walk somewhere outweighs the existence of a species...
> 
> Alladale and the Reintroduction of Wolves | Securing access for walkers | Ramblers, Britain's Walking Charity
> 
> I'm not quite sure who they think they are... a punch of jumped up pole bearing hikers...
> 
> excuse the rant


The only species that has an outside chance of controlling deer correctly is man. There are more deer in the UK than there have been in the last 1000 years or so. In Scotland you also have sika and fallow deer. Both are too large for small cats once adult. Also, large predators would soon learn to take the easy 10 mph lamb chops as opposed to 30 mph venison. 

I am all for the reintroduction of once native species if they have a realistic chance of survival. I'd be happy to see farmers compensated for loss of livestock by the tax payer. 

But in 2012 I'm not sure if brown bear and wolves could thrive here. I can imagine a lot of land owners shooting them on sight to be honest. With human nature being what it is. The way forward would have to be a fenced area, but the 'right to roam' policy in Scotland prevents that from happening at the moment.


----------



## YOGI BEAR

there may be a possibility the beaver may never have been extinct in scotland
Press and Journal - Article -

The Tayside Beavers - A 400 Year Conspiracy of Silence? - Highland Perthshire News


----------



## Graham

Anyone else see there was an article on the Lynx reintroduction on this evening's Countryfile on BBC1? Should be on iPlayer if you missed it.

It covers all the pros and cons that we've discussed, the main pro being a top predator to control deer numbers etc..., and of course the cons being the potential threat to domestic farm animals such as chickens, lambs, and even calves, and also to other wild animals already under threat such as the Capercaillie and Wildcat.


----------



## Mynki

Graham said:


> Anyone else see there was an article on the Lynx reintroduction on this evening's Countryfile on BBC1? Should be on iPlayer if you missed it.
> 
> It covers all the pros and cons that we've discussed, the main pro being a top predator to control deer numbers etc..., and of course the cons being the potential threat to domestic farm animals such as chickens, lambs, and even calves, and also to other wild animals already under threat such as the Capercaillie and Wildcat.


I'll watch it later. Whereabouts was being considered?


----------



## Graham

My Scottish geography isn't great, but I believe they mentioned the Grampians.


----------



## Mynki

Graham said:


> My Scottish geography isn't great, but I believe they mentioned the Grampians.


That would make sense. I still don't think they would make a dent in the scottish deer population though. They feed on roe bucks, does and kids in their current native range. They may even be big enough to take red and sika calves, but not hinds or stags. 

But as mentioned, why bother when they can take lambs and sheep all day long easily? I'd still love to see it happen though.


----------



## Graham

In the programme they suggested that a Lynx could tackle prey up to three times their weight, and an adult Lynx weighs approx 30kg so that's potentially a pretty big prey animal. 

They also said there are wild Lynx in Switzerland, France, Germany and Poland, any idea if they have problems there with predation of farm animals? The big problem here appears to be the lack of really wild places, the UK may be a green and pleasant land but few places are truly wild, whereas those other countries are far more heavily wooded and mountainous and have vast areas with very few people at all.


----------



## fishboy

There are already big cat populations in wales and scotland.... 

I've seen one in wales and I know other people that have seen them in the south :whistling2:


----------



## Mynki

Graham said:


> In the programme they suggested that a Lynx could tackle prey up to three times their weight, and an adult Lynx weighs approx 30kg so that's potentially a pretty big prey animal.
> 
> They also said there are wild Lynx in Switzerland, France, Germany and Poland, any idea if they have problems there with predation of farm animals? The big problem here appears to be the lack of really wild places, the UK may be a green and pleasant land but few places are truly wild, whereas those other countries are far more heavily wooded and mountainous and have vast areas with very few people at all.


I stand corrected. I've since read that adults can range from 8kg (female) to 45kg (male) depending on race. So depending on where the original stock came from , and where they're released they might be able to take larger species of deer.


----------



## YOGI BEAR

fishboy said:


> There are already big cat populations in wales and scotland....
> 
> I've seen one in wales and I know other people that have seen them in the south :whistling2:


I have seen big cats in scotland
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/exotic-mammals/886237-anyone-know-anything-about-big.html


----------



## Graham

Mynki said:


> I stand corrected. I've since read that adults can range from 8kg (female) to 45kg (male) depending on race. So depending on where the original stock came from , and where they're released they might be able to take larger species of deer.


Have you seen the programme yet? I think they said the Lynx that they're planning to release are the biggest sub-species so adults will be towards the upper end of that weight scale.

My cousin lived in Scotland for a while when her ex worked on the North Sea oil rigs, this was back in the early 80s, we visited them one Xmas and it was a pretty wild and remote spot where they lived, she swore that her Old English Sheepdog took off after a "big" cat one day, she said it looked large and panther like but couldn't swear it wasn't just a larger than usual domestic cat. The only thing was there were no neighbours with a cat for miles, so if it was "domestic" then it was probably a feral stray.


----------

