# Best way to make a BB



## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

Hey 
I would like to know the fastest and best way to make a BB and a Patternless albino, which is basically the same thing, geneticlly wise (right)?
I have a Blizzard female, and an Albino male, i would breed them, incubating 2 eggs for female and 2 eggs for male, then il wait until they grow up ( 1 year, 50 gram ), and breed those and would have a shot of 1 to 16 to get a BB right ? 
Is this the best way to create a BB with what i have, and if I have any flaws in my thinking. The question is also for an Albino Patternless.
Thanks in advance,
Malachi


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## BG-Gecko (Nov 12, 2007)

you're completely right they are both double recessive, and it is indeed exactly the same with an albino and patternless just with a albino male and patternless female


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

albino het blizzard x albino het blizzard = 50% blazing blizzard, 50% albino het blizzard..i think :?

albino het patternless x albino het patternless = 50% albino patternless, 50% abino het patternless..i think :?


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

just buy them thats best way


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Diablo said:


> just buy them thats best way


 
ahh..but a lot less rewarding ..

..& its more expensive lol :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

matty__=) said:


> ahh..but a lot less rewarding ..
> 
> ..& its more expensive lol :Na_Na_Na_Na:


god yes its alot less rewarding but its by far the quickest lol


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

Diablo said:


> god yes its alot less rewarding but its by far the quickest lol


Haha, well yeah its the quickets way only here in Israel we dont got a BB :censor:.

Guys, one question yet to be answered - is my planning good ? should i make only 1 pair ? is there anything i had skipped or forget ? Do I got a 2 out of 32 to get it ? all these genetics is confusing 

Thanks for all the comments by the way !!: victory:


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Malachi said:


> Haha, well yeah its the quickets way only here in Israel we dont got a BB :censor:.
> 
> Guys, one question yet to be answered - is my planning good ? should i make only 1 pair ? is there anything i had skipped or forget ? Do I got a 2 out of 32 to get it ? all these genetics is confusing
> 
> Thanks for all the comments by the way !!: victory:


 
albino het blizzard x albino het blizzard should give you *half* blazing blizzards, if thats what youre asking?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

matty__=) said:


> albino het blizzard x albino het blizzard should give you *half* blazing blizzards, if thats what youre asking?


Actually, Matty, it'd only give you a quarter blazing blizzards and three quarters albino possible het blazing blizzard.

That's because there's only a one in four chance that both parents will give a copy of their blizzard gene to the offspring.

And Malachi: If you don't have a patternless gecko, you will not be able to make patternless albinos. Patternless is a separate gene to albino and blizzard; I don't know how easy it is to get patternlesses in Israel.

As for the 1 in 16 chance of getting blazing blizzards, from what I understand, it is not that easy or straightforward. It took a lot longer and was a lot more difficult - as though blizzard and albino don't LIKE combining. The odds I remember hearing quoted were more like 1 in 256 - that BBs were a lot more rare than they should have been. However, once you get a pair who come from at least one blazing blizzard ancestor, it's a lot easier and does work in the 1/16 ratio - as though there are other genes that have to line up first, but once THEY are lined up, you can produce your blazing blizzards without trouble.

Same goes for patternless albino from what I understand.


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

w00t  - 1 in 256 are you sirious ?
You think it isnt possible then ? I have no chance of getting a pair that came from BB parents.
About albino patternless, I know I have to get a patternless, I was just theoretically speaking - forgot to say, my bad


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Malachi said:


> w00t  - 1 in 256 are you sirious ?
> You think it isnt possible then ? I have no chance of getting a pair that came from BB parents.
> About albino patternless, I know I have to get a patternless, I was just theoretically speaking - forgot to say, my bad


SSTHISTO is right I'm afraid - probably better if you incubated for one male and several females thus giving you more offspring and potentially that BB : victory:


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

theoretically I can get a BB in my 2nd eggg, or in my 167 egg ? T_T, might just leave the idea, aswel as the fact I dont have room for 150 geckos rofl xD, and killing baby geckos if they arnt BB just seems too cruel !!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Why kill them - you could sell them! 

And yes, you could theoretically luck out and get a blazing in the first egg or be very unlucky and not get one at all.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Actually, Matty, it'd only give you a quarter blazing blizzards and three quarters albino possible het blazing blizzard.
> 
> That's because there's only a one in four chance that both parents will give a copy of their blizzard gene to the offspring.
> 
> ...


ahh..sorry..i did say think


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

If il breed the normals double het's, and breed those - wont I get some albinos het blizzard and blizzard het albinos and then ultimately BB ??


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## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

yes but they'd only be poss. hets, so you'd have to try to prove them out with your original parents..which could take several sets of eggs if you're unlucky


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If you breed the double hets, you'll get:

9/16 normal looking 66% possible het blizzard and/or albino (and you can't tell by looks which are which)
3/16 albino 66% possible het blizzard (but you can't tell which are het blizzard)
3/16 blizzard 66% possible het albino (but you can't tell which carry albino)
1/16 blazing blizzard.

Theoretically, anyway - and those proportions only hold when you ARE talking about hundreds of animals, not just one or two clutches.

As I said, though, unless your albino and blizzard come from lines that have already produced blazing blizzards, though, you may be fighting against numbers that you don't like. It doesn't mean you won't get a blazing blizzard - it just might not happen in one generation.

What I would do if I were you is breed the albino to the blizzard.

F1 Generation (children of Albino X Blizzard) Keep one male and three or four females that are normal het blazing blizzard. Breed these together.

(F2 generation - the offspring of your hets) Keep one male blizzard and one male albino. Keep two or three female albinos and two or three female blizzards. Don't bother with keeping the normals - sell them on. I'd also *keep* your adult hets - breed them the next year.

(F3 Generation) Breed the blizzard male to the blizzard females in the first year - if you only get normal grey-eyed blizzards, you might not have a het male.
Breed the albino male to the albino females in the first year - if you only get normal albinos, you might not have a het male - but any blizzard you produce HAS to be a blazing blizzard. This is to try to produce your one-in-four chances of blazing blizzards while producing 100% visual morph offspring.

(F3 Generation) In the second year, if you didn't get any blazing blizzards from either pair, swap males. This will produce 100% hets at a minimum - but it produces a 50% chance of getting the female's morph if your male is a het for the morph. This is primarily to test whether your males are hets or not - and you'd want to keep offspring who are the same morph as the females, because they are 100% het for the male's traits. 

Once you've got those... breed a male of one visual morph to females of the other visual morph - you'd expect 1 in 4 to be blazing blizzards if you're lucky.


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

Wow, im gonna need to look at this for a couple of times, THANKS ! 
What numbers are we talking here ?
Its a little confusing.
By the way - "het blazing blizzard", u mean double het - albino,blizzard right ? and another Q - How do I tell if theyre normal albinos and if theyre normal blizzard, what makes them not normal ?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Malachi said:


> Wow, im gonna need to look at this for a couple of times, THANKS !
> What numbers are we talking here ?


Depends on how lucky you are. If I tell you it'll take 1000 geckos to get that one blazing blizzard, you won't like it - but it could be true if you're unlucky. If I tell you it could be your first hatching egg from your first generation of het offspring, it'd be lovely and lucky - but it's unlikely to happen.



> By the way - "het blazing blizzard", u mean double het - albino,blizzard right ?


That's right. Carrying both albino and blizzard.



> and another Q - How do I tell if theyre normal albinos and if theyre normal blizzard, what makes them not normal ?


Normal blizzard (aka "not a blazing blizzard") = Grey eyed blizzard, will go darker when chilled or stressed. 
Normal albino (aka "not a blazing blizzard") = Normal banded albino, not a white gecko


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

Thanks ! But why should it take 1000 eggs, if ultimately il be having a 1 to 4 chance ? maybe im not understading this right - 1 to 4 means its gotta be 1 from 4 egges or just a % and dosnt mean much ?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

It's a percentage chance.

Each egg has a 1 in 16 (that's 6.25%) chance of being a blazing blizzard from being a pair of hets. But just because you've hatched out fifteen not-blazing-blizzards, the sixteenth egg does not know it's "supposed" to be a blazing blizzard.

And the reason it might take longer is because there seems to be other factors in blazing blizzards - things to do with the linkup between albino and blizzard - that make it MORE difficult to get a blazing blizzard from animals that do not already have blazing blizzard ancestors. A missing gene pair, something - that you have to be lucky to get the right genes matching up.


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

Now its clear, 
Thanks alot for all your help Ssthisto, and evreryone who replied too 
The "factor" goes same for Patternless albino right ?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

From what I understand, Malachi, yes, it does. Patternless doesn't "like" Albino either - though it's somewhat easier to make a Patternless Albino from what I understand.


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

One possible reason for the difficulty in getting albino patternless is linkage. The albino locus and the patternless locus could be close together on the same chromosome. If so, then mating a patternless to an albino would give a pair of chromosomes with one having an albino mutant gene linked to the normal version of the patternless mutant and the other chromosome having a normal version of the albino mutant gene linked to the patternless mutant.

Assuming this is the case, I would mate albino x patternless to make double hets, then mate double het x double het and keep as many of the albino and patternless female babies as possible. And you might even get lucky and get an albino patternless. Next I would mate the albinos with an unrelated patternless male and the patternless babies to an unrelated albino male. Save the patternless babies from the first mating and the albino babies from the second mating and mate them. You will probably get between 1/4 and 1/16 albino patternless babies in this generation.

That is 4 generations down from the original albino x patternless mating, and you will be selling off a considerable number of unwanted babies. But I think the albino patternless result is more certain than just mating double het x double het.


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

Thanks~!
This method applys to BB aswell ?


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Malachi said:


> Thanks~!
> This method applys to BB aswell ?


This sort of method would work for making blazing blizzards, too. However, just mating double het x double het would produce blazing blizzard in less time if the blizzard and albino loci are not linked.

I don't know a whole lot about leopard gecko genetics, just what I read on forums and web sites. Most of my experience is with mice, pigeons, and ringneck doves. I gave the method that I would use to combine linked mutant genes in mice. The principles of genetics are the same in mice, corn, geckos, royal pythons, etc., so the method should work for you.

If the patternless and albino loci are linked and the blizzard and albino loci are linked, then I'd want to know what mating patternless x blizzard produces. As I understand it, both blizzard and patternless are recessive to their normal alleles. If crossing blizzard and patternless produces babies that look like one of the parents or more or less intermediate between the parents, then the two mutants are likely to share the same locus. If normal-looking babies appeared, then the blizzard and patternless mutants would not have the same locus.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

paulh said:


> If the patternless and albino loci are linked and the blizzard and albino loci are linked, then I'd want to know what mating patternless x blizzard produces.


Far as I know it produces normals het patternless and blizzard - and as far as I'm aware there are very few or no proven double homozygous Patternless Blizzard (AKA "Banana Blizzard") animals. Unfortunately my only female blizzard died recently, so I couldn't test her against my adult Patternless males. 

I have bred a (very yellow) blizzard male to two het patternless females trying to prove out whether HE was het or homozygous patternless - and did not get any visual patternless offspring. The Blizzard offspring I got can be accounted for by the female Albino het blizzard I bred him to.

Keep in mind also that there are three separate Albino genes - and that these three are not compatible (in that you breed a visual Bell albino to a visual Tremper albino, and you will get normals who are double hets). I know that Tremper Albino is one that has been reported as the 'troublemaker' in terms of producing bad odds for Blazing Blizzards and Patternless Albinos.... I don't know if Bell and Las Vegas strain albinos have the same problems.


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

I forgot to mention, the albino is bell, its ok right?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If the albino is a Bell strain albino, it MAY make it easier to get your blazing blizzard in the second generation. I'm not sure they have the same "don't want to link" problems that Tremper Albinos seem to have.

But I don't know for sure  All I know is that when you DO get your blazing blizzard it's going to be a gorgeous one


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## Malachi (Dec 9, 2007)

thanks


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

We do have a tremper BB and are this year going to put our bell male to a blizzard so it will be interesting to compare results in 2/3 years time!!!


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