# Ball python always looking upside down :s



## ashcroft7

Evening guys

I have a 2-3 year old spinner ball python, I've had him for a month and he's eating and pooing fine, however he has a very odd habit.
When he's in his viv he lifts his head up and turns it upside down, then sort of rotates his 'neck' around and sort of flops it side to side. It's very difficult to describe. 
All his temps are fine and humidity is sitting at 60%.
Does anyone have any idea what this could be? I've never seen any of my other balls do this :s


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## RickDangerous

ashcroft7 said:


> Evening guys
> 
> I have a 2-3 year old spinner ball python, I've had him for a month and he's eating and pooing fine, however he has a very odd habit.
> When he's in his viv he lifts his head up and turns it upside down, then sort of rotates his 'neck' around and sort of flops it side to side. It's very difficult to describe.
> All his temps are fine and humidity is sitting at 60%.
> Does anyone have any idea what this could be? I've never seen any of my other balls do this :s


Yeah its the corkscrew/head wobble associated with the spider gene. Research it. Although its a bit late now i guess.


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## Coal

Unfortunately the spider gene (which is part of the spinner morph) has an associated neurological defect that results in uncontrollable movements of the head and neck, which in turn leads to poor coordination and balance problems. It can range in severity from barely noticeable to truly awful, and can lead to physical problems eating (as in they want to, but physically struggle). It tends to worsen gradually with age. Sounds like your guy has it quite bad.

There's nothing you can do about it, I'm afraid.


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## ashcroft7

RickDangerous said:


> Yeah its the corkscrew/head wobble associated with the spider gene. Research it. Although its a bit late now i guess.


Fantastic thank you, just read up about it so I feel a bit better now. Was worried it might be a serious neurological problem or respiratey problem. 
I guess it just makes him a little more interesting!


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## ashcroft7

Coal said:


> Unfortunately the spider gene (which is part of the spinner morph) has an associated neurological defect that results in uncontrollable movements of the head and neck, which in turn leads to poor coordination and balance problems. It can range in severity from barely noticeable to truly awful, and can lead to physical problems eating (as in they want to, but physically struggle). It tends to worsen gradually with age. Sounds like your guy has it quite bad.
> 
> There's nothing you can do about it, I'm afraid.


Thanks, although I haven't seen another snake do it before after doing a quick bit of research he does seem to have it quite bad, and isn't just a slight wobble.
As I said he eats well and is a pleasure to handle, he has a great inquisitive personality!


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## kirsty2474

ashcroft7 said:


> Fantastic thank you, just read up about it so I feel a bit better now. Was worried it might be a serious neurological problem or respiratey problem.
> I guess it just makes him a little more interesting!


It is a neurological problem which can be serious


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## Coal

ashcroft7 said:


> Thanks, although I haven't seen another snake do it before after doing a quick bit of research he does seem to have it quite bad, and isn't just a slight wobble.
> As I said he eats well and is a pleasure to handle, he has a great inquisitive personality!


Well, I hope for both your sakes that it doesn't get much worse.


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## Jesterone

ashcroft7 said:


> Fantastic thank you, just read up about it so I feel a bit better now. Was worried it might be a serious *neurological problem* or respiratey problem.
> I guess it just makes him a little more interesting!



It is. 

But I'm in the 'do not breed' camp.


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## ashcroft7

Jesterone said:


> It is.
> 
> But I'm in the 'do not breed' camp.


If he is to be bred with a normal, will the babies have the same problems?


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## kirsty2474

ashcroft7 said:


> If he is to be bred with a normal, will the babies have the same problems?


All royals with the spider gene carry the neurological defect, though some have it worse than others. So no matter what you pair with your spinner, you will be producing babies all with a neurological defect.


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## Coal

ashcroft7 said:


> If he is to be bred with a normal, will the babies have the same problems?


In short, yes.

_All_ animals with the spider gene have the defect, so all the spider babies would have it, while those without the spider gene would be fine. For all intents and purposes, the pattern and the condition are caused by the same gene (might not be genetically true, but might as well be considered as such).

I strongly, strongly, would not recommend breeding any spider.


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## Iulia

caveat emptor and all that - but its a shame people are selling problem animals without telling the buyer.

If the attractiveness of the snake outweighs the issues fine, no harm in being honest. 

If it doesn't and you need to hide it, ffs stop breeding them!!!

Hope your little guy is ok mate


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## ashcroft7

Coal said:


> In short, yes.
> 
> _All_ animals with the spider gene have the defect, so all the spider babies would have it, while those without the spider gene would be fine. For all intents and purposes, the pattern and the condition are caused by the same gene (might not be genetically true, but might as well be considered as such).
> 
> I strongly, strongly, would not recommend breeding any spider.


Thanks coal, point taken! Pretty gutted I wasn't told by the shop when I bought him! 
Are there any other morphs that have this or similar problem?


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## Coal

ashcroft7 said:


> Thanks coal, point taken! Pretty gutted I wasn't told by the shop when I bought him!
> Are there any other morphs that have this or similar problem?


Not as far as I'm aware with royals. I know there are some morphs in other species that have a similar problem; the jag gene in carpet pythons comes to mind. There's also 'stargazing' in corns, which had similar symptoms and is inheritable, but is it's own gene, rather than being linked to a colour morph. It is more common in some morphs though, just due to lineage.


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## shaneharrison

fingers crossed it doesn't get any worse...my spider was PTS a couple of weeks ago because of the severity of its neuro condition.


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## ashcroft7

shaneharrison said:


> fingers crossed it doesn't get any worse...my spider was PTS a couple of weeks ago because of the severity of its neuro condition.


PTS? What's that sorry?


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## RickDangerous

ashcroft7 said:


> PTS? What's that sorry?


put to sleep....


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## Jesterone

ashcroft7 said:


> Thanks coal, point taken! Pretty gutted I wasn't told by the shop when I bought him!
> 
> Are there any other morphs that have this or similar problem?



http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

Follow the link above for all known issues with morphs. There's quite a few. 

It's a shame you wasn't told about it by the seller but it happens all the time unfortunately. 

Even if you still want the snake it's far better if you understand the problems beforehand. There are theories that certain things can make it worse like heat levels and what not. 

I'm against the breeding of them because as an animal they have a right to be free of discomfort and pain. There's no way of knowing if it's painful, but it certainly looks uncomfortable. 

Don't blame yourself of course, you didn't know. Hopefully it won't progress further in your snake. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ashcroft7

RickDangerous said:


> put to sleep....


Sorry to hear that mate.

How severe was its condition? I've been watching my little guy for about 45 mins straight and it's pretty much every 30 seconds, sometimes he seems to bump his head on the sides of his viv.
Quite upsetting to watch.
Getting more and more frustrated at the shop the more i think of it for not telling me now.


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## Jesterone

There's also a bit of a myth (in my opinion) that spiders are better feeders. I think this is just a selling tactic and a poor excuse for justifying their breeding. At the base of it spider breeders don't have any grounds to do so except their own selfish desires. 

Which can be said for all sorts, but worse still in the case of the spider gene and it's counterparts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ashcroft7

Jesterone said:


> OWALReptiles - Issues
> 
> Follow the link above for all known issues with morphs. There's quite a few.
> 
> It's a shame you wasn't told about it by the seller but it happens all the time unfortunately.
> 
> Even if you still want the snake it's far better if you understand the problems beforehand. There are theories that certain things can make it worse like heat levels and what not.
> 
> I'm against the breeding of them because as an animal they have a right to be free of discomfort and pain. There's no way of knowing if it's painful, but it certainly looks uncomfortable.
> 
> Don't blame yourself of course, you didn't know. Hopefully it won't progress further in your snake.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Thanks mate ill have a little read about what I can do to make it better for him.
Yeh it's really not cool to sell them to someone without warning them. 
I'm tempted to speak to the shop as he was bought for breeding purposes, but thinking to my self now if they where to offer a swap I'd much rather this guy stay with me, knowing he won't get treated better anywhere else than with me so!


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## Ryanbrown89

Jesterone said:


> OWALReptiles - Issues
> 
> Follow the link above for all known issues with morphs. There's quite a few.
> 
> It's a shame you wasn't told about it by the seller but it happens all the time unfortunately.
> 
> Even if you still want the snake it's far better if you understand the problems beforehand. There are theories that certain things can make it worse like heat levels and what not.
> 
> I'm against the breeding of them because as an animal they have a right to be free of discomfort and pain. There's no way of knowing if it's painful, but it certainly looks uncomfortable.
> 
> Don't blame yourself of course, you didn't know. Hopefully it won't progress further in your snake.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I never knew champagnes have the head wobble to:gasp:


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## Iulia

I would probably personally try to have a word with the shop management on principle - because it isn't ok. 

Its a bugger if you planned to breed as it seems quite clear this particular animal should not be bred ...

But if you have space in your house and heart to give a sick snake a good forever home indeed he is likely much better off with you .... :flrt:


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## Coal

I would also say have a word with the pet shop; I personally believe shops should not sell any unhealthy animal, but at the very least they should warn people. I guess it's possible they just didn't know, though I doubt it what with the symptoms being so clear. Still, if they somehow managed to miss it, they need to be told for further reference.

If people can be discouraged from buying spiders and shops discouraged from selling them, then hopefully breeders will stop breeding them.


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## shaneharrison

ashcroft7 said:


> Sorry to hear that mate.
> 
> How severe was its condition? I've been watching my little guy for about 45 mins straight and it's pretty much every 30 seconds, sometimes he seems to bump his head on the sides of his viv.
> Quite upsetting to watch.
> Getting more and more frustrated at the shop the more i think of it for not telling me now.


it was horrendous. even when relaxed in his hide his head would bounce up and down - i could sometimes hear it tapping on the roof of the hide. feeding time was an absolute nightmare for him - he would corkscrew for sometimes an hour or two. he couldn't get the prey in his mouth unless i put it next to his face. he would often be exploring his vivarium upside down! it was truly horrible to see. it took me a year to eventually pluck up the courage and heart to put him out of his misery.


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## Littlelady928

ashcroft7 said:


> Evening guys
> 
> I have a 2-3 year old spinner ball python, I've had him for a month and he's eating and pooing fine, however he has a very odd habit.
> When he's in his viv he lifts his head up and turns it upside down, then sort of rotates his 'neck' around and sort of flops it side to side. It's very difficult to describe.
> All his temps are fine and humidity is sitting at 60%.
> Does anyone have any idea what this could be? I've never seen any of my other balls do this :s


Completely normal. It's a disorder some snakes have but it's not deadly. I've had my ball pythons for along time and she still does it I laugh about it now. Nothing to worry about, it's just unique.


shaneharrison said:


> it was horrendous. even when relaxed in his hide his head would bounce up and down - i could sometimes hear it tapping on the roof of the hide. feeding time was an absolute nightmare for him - he would corkscrew for sometimes an hour or two. he couldn't get the prey in his mouth unless i put it next to his face. he would often be exploring his vivarium upside down! it was truly horrible to see. it took me a year to eventually pluck up the courage and heart to put him out of his misery.
> 
> 
> shaneharrison said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was horrendous. even when relaxed in his hide his head would bounce up and down - i could sometimes hear it tapping on the roof of the hide. feeding time was an absolute nightmare for him - he would corkscrew for sometimes an hour or two. he couldn't get the prey in his mouth unless i put it next to his face. he would often be exploring his vivarium upside down! it was truly horrible to see. it took me a year to eventually pluck up the courage and heart to put him out of his misery.
> 
> 
> 
> How old was he, my snakes I bought as a baby Completely blind so I shuck defrosted mice in front of his her face till she learned how to grab them for mints I would stand there and wait. She's now eating live mice and is like a dog I drop it in ther and she catches it from the air. Always ask there's always ways. I'm sorry for your loss.
Click to expand...


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## Littlelady928

She


Littlelady928 said:


> Completely normal if you snake rotates his head backwards. It's a disorder some snakes have it, but its not deadly. I've had my ball pythons for along time and she still does it I laugh about it now. Nothing to worry about, it's just unique.


She's also blind so when she can't find the mice the boy snake kills it and let's her eat it. Teamwork. Make sure your handling your snakes equally they can get jealous. At least mine do lol


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## Malc

I'm sure the OP, who hasn't been active on the forum since 2015 will welcome the advice and reassurance


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