# Bye



## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Sorry to say, that due to the ridiculous number of idiots and folks-with-chips-on-shoulders-about -DWA keepers that seem to be gravitating towards this section, I shan't be posting on here anymore. I'm sick to the back teeth of a) reading the same ridiculous posts time and time again, b) reading insults from non-keepers and wannabes, c) trying to sift out the idiots who don't keep but try and convince everyone that they do.

This used to be a decent section populated by some of the most experienced keepers around, now it's like a inner city town centre, all the decent folks have packed up and gone and it's just populated by chavs and ****wits.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Sorry to say, that due to the ridiculous number of idiots and folks-with-chips-on-shoulders-about -DWA keepers that seem to be gravitating towards this section, I shan't be posting on here anymore. I'm sick to the back teeth of a) reading the same ridiculous posts time and time again, b) reading insults from non-keepers and wannabes, c) trying to sift out the idiots who don't keep but try and convince everyone that they do.
> 
> This used to be a decent section populated by some of the most experienced keepers around, now it's like a inner city town centre, all the decent folks have packed up and gone and it's just populated by chavs and ****wits.


That sucks dude,,,theres only a handful of decent members on here anymore...seems to be full of viperlovers and DWA haters. Its a real shame that your leaving....i mean whos going to take the pee out of the fakers with your mono-tone sarcastic humour? Guess you have to do what you have to do...but stay incontact with the scrubs...plus ive got some mangroves coming in soon: victory:


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## Demonlude (Feb 17, 2009)

It's a shame when things like this happen. These forums are intended to provide good solid information, which comes from some very experienced, well regarded and knowledgeable keepers.

Unfortunately, it's the genuine people that miss out on things, due to the high volume of idiots that seem to think they know everything.

I don't have a great deal of posts, as I don't have much knowledge to share at the moment. I do however sit back and digest the information given by the experienced people, which increases my understanding of various species. 

Sorry you're going, as losing an experienced member prevents a lot of genuine people from learning.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

I tend to only look at threads created by people I recognise on here because I know the majority of the others are just going to be arguments or stupid questions that could have been answered by a quick google or by looking at the top of the section.

Luckily this is not the only place.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Last one to leave can you turn the lights off......................


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## xxstaggyxx (Oct 22, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Sorry to say, that due to the ridiculous number of idiots and folks-with-chips-on-shoulders-about -DWA keepers that seem to be gravitating towards this section, I shan't be posting on here anymore. I'm sick to the back teeth of a) reading the same ridiculous posts time and time again, b) reading insults from non-keepers and wannabes, c) trying to sift out the idiots who don't keep but try and convince everyone that they do.
> 
> This used to be a decent section populated by some of the most experienced keepers around, now it's like a inner city town centre, all the decent folks have packed up and gone and it's just populated by chavs and ****wits.


 
Sorry to see you go mate you have given some great advice here and some great posts also shame to see you leave but i understand were you are coming well hope one day to speek to you soon mate


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

A great loss to this section. Don't know you in person but have followed many of your posts and have had some sound advise from you. Personally I tend to keep a low profile and only respond to people that I know are involved with DWAs or at the very least are experienced keepers who keep reptiles that I have a keen interest in or actually keep myself. There is no point responding to the likes of the viperlovers and co. Too be honest I find a lot of the posts in here a complete waste of space. Anyway... "Elvis" has left the building.


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

Sorry you are wanting to leave the building. I hate it when forums get annoying but whichever one you go to, there is always one (or 6/60/600) that you want to throttle. Good luck in your endeavours


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

will miss your amusing comments on here stu!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

stuartdouglas said:


> This used to be a decent section populated by some of the most experienced keepers around, now it's like a inner city town centre, all the decent folks have packed up and gone and it's just populated by chavs and ****wits.


But then, if all the good guys - the knowledgeable keepers and breeders of the species listed - disappear, then it won't get any better, will it?

It'll be a shame to see a real keeper go.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Sorry to say, that due to the ridiculous number of idiots and folks-with-chips-on-shoulders-about -DWA keepers that seem to be gravitating towards this section, I shan't be posting on here anymore. I'm sick to the back teeth of a) reading the same ridiculous posts time and time again, b) reading insults from non-keepers and wannabes, c) trying to sift out the idiots who don't keep but try and convince everyone that they do.
> 
> This used to be a decent section populated by some of the most experienced keepers around, now it's like a inner city town centre, all the decent folks have packed up and gone and it's just populated by chavs and ****wits.


Not you as well! At this rate there'll be hardly any DWA "regulars" handing out sound advice, funny put-downs and posting up awesome piccies of their snakes for me to ogle!

A shame.

Francis


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

Real shame you are leaving, one less persons photos I an oogle over


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

You dont sound like you want to leave, I have only posted in DWA once and got the s**t ripped out of me, You lot mention viperlover in almost every thread and sure I cant fault your posts you guys know your stuff but you have to be fair its just a public forum and there is not many DWA keepers so you will always be talking to people who dont know as much as you maybe if you guys got off your high horses and talked to people like people not treat them all as viperlovers and idiots from the start you may start to enjoy the forum again. But if not hey good bye


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

rum&coke said:


> You dont sound like you want to leave, I have only posted in DWA once and got the s**t ripped out of me, You lot mention viperlover in almost every thread and sure I cant fault your posts you guys know your stuff but you have to be fair its just a public forum and there is not many DWA keepers so you will always be talking to people who dont know as much as you maybe if you guys got off your high horses and talked to people like people not treat them all as viperlovers and idiots from the start you may start to enjoy the forum again. But if not hey good bye


No one on here minds talking to people who know less than them. It's just the level of idiocy that keeping DWA listed species seems to attract. Viperlover is just one well documented individual. If you'd had him ring you at midnight (I have) and want to tell you about something you kept and he hasn't, then you'd have pretty low opinions of him too. People seem to think he is an innocent child who should be left alone. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Aside from VL though, many people come on here and ask the most ridiculous questions. "How long would xyz take to kill you?" "Can I have a pitbull on DWA?" etc, etc. Even seemingly ok questions like "I want to get into venomous snakes, how do I start?" or "What non-venomous snakes are good practice for venomous?" have been answered so often it's simply not true. All that is required is a quick search, hell there's even a sticky regarding obtaining the license.
We're not ogres, we're not above our stations or up on pedestals. We all started somewhere, but we got where we are by not asking the same stupid questions repeatedly and working damn hard. We're more than willing to offer any help to people who genuinely need it. We just get annoyed when people think we owe them help, refuse to listen, or come out with the same dumb :censor: day in, day out.
And now the new hip thing to do seems to be bashing DWA keepers as elitist, arrogant dicks. We can't win. Honestly mate, it seems that at the moment we can't do right for doing wrong.
I suggest you read this thread: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/dwa-species/515767-best-venomous-snake-pet.html
Read it all and really read the answers I gave to Timisdrunk. If you do, you'll realise why people starting taking the mick from the word go.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

terciopelo_dave said:


> No one on here minds talking to people who know less than them. It's just the level of idiocy that keeping DWA listed species seems to attract. Viperlover is just one well documented individual. If you'd had him ring you at midnight (I have) and want to tell you about something you kept and he hasn't, then you'd have pretty low opinions of him too. People seem to think he is an innocent child who should be left alone. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> Aside from VL though, many people come on here and ask the most ridiculous questions. "How long would xyz take to kill you?" "Can I have a pitbull on DWA?" etc, etc. Even seemingly ok questions like "I want to get into venomous snakes, how do I start?" or "What non-venomous snakes are good practice for venomous?" have been answered so often it's simply not true. All that is required is a quick search, hell there's even a sticky regarding obtaining the license.
> We're not ogres, we're not above our stations or up on pedestals. We all started somewhere, but we got where we are by not asking the same stupid questions repeatedly and working damn hard. We're more than willing to offer any help to people who genuinely need it. We just get annoyed when people think we owe them help, refuse to listen, or come out with the same dumb :censor: day in, day out.
> And now the new hip thing to do seems to be bashing DWA keepers as elitist, arrogant dicks. We can't win. Honestly mate, it seems that at the moment we can't do right for doing wrong.
> ...


I saw that post and yes it was stupid and I can understand how it would get on your t*ts after a time.
All the sections on hear have trolls you dont have to feed them and all the sections on hear have new people asking the same questions again and again, you dont have to answer every post made, I try not to get into the can you keep two snakes together posts and the can you keep leo's on sand posts any more as I got bored of the same old stuff.
The forum is what you make it, yes it would be great if people did a search before posting but they dont, you could always make some stickys and just link to them when the same old stuff gets posted and say nothing more.
It feels a shame that you guys want to leave the forum when you clearly know your stuff and have good stuff to put into the forum.
But I feel you do make it hard for yourselfs by keep bringing up people like viperlover in pretty much every thread and getting into arguments, I used to like reading the threads on DWA even tho I would not want to keep them I still like them because I like reptiles, now when I see a thread on DWA come up I just wonder how many posts it will be before you guys mention viperlover or get into an argument with some body.
Anyway I hope you dont all leave the forum because nobody is bashing DWA keepers hear, I think you are just getting a bit defensive and letting the trolls get you down.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

rum&coke said:


> I saw that post and yes it was stupid and I can understand how it would get on your t*ts after a time.
> All the sections on hear have trolls you dont have to feed them and all the sections on hear have new people asking the same questions again and again, you dont have to answer every post made, I try not to get into the can you keep two snakes together posts and the can you keep leo's on sand posts any more as I got bored of the same old stuff.
> The forum is what you make it, yes it would be great if people did a search before posting but they dont, you could always make some stickys and just link to them when the same old stuff gets posted and say nothing more.
> It feels a shame that you guys want to leave the forum when you clearly know your stuff and have good stuff to put into the forum.
> ...


 
Maybe we are letting the trolls get us down mate, but after all we're only human. Viperlover isn't the only idiot. He's just their spokesperson. 
I will try to avoid getting so jaded with RFUK that I leave, but I hope you won't hold it against me if I say what's on my mind from time to time.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

This is what happens when we get it wrong:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ng_bite_from_Bothrops_asper_PLoS_Medicine.jpg

http://www.savp.co.za/Venomous/slides/Puff Adder bite.jpg

http://www.indiamike.com/photopost/data/505/Bandi_Bite_Damage.jpeg

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/2007/08/Picture1big.jpg

They are just a few examples of what happens if DWA keepers :censor: up. We've all put in years of work to make sure that doesn't happen on a day to day basis. We've worked hard for a hell of a long time to make sure our care, husbandry, and handling skills are good enough to keep us alive.
I think we've all earned the right to be a little bit testy when we get challenged. Don't you?


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

terciopelo_dave said:


> This is what happens when we get it wrong:
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ng_bite_from_Bothrops_asper_PLoS_Medicine.jpg
> 
> ...


That first pic is minging what did that to him?
Yeah I understand how you must feel, but the more you have a pop or take the p**s out of the people who post stupid things the more they will bite back and then the more you will get p**sed of with the forum.And in most cases the stupid posts are down to people just not knowing any better not a case of trolls just out to wind you up.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

First bite is Bothrops asper. Terciopelo. The animal my forum name comes from. One of the best snakes I've owned. 
The annoying thing is everyone thinks it's us who should change. Maybe you're right, we shouldn't let it get to us, but why the hell not? And then to be called arrogant for making what we see as jokes. That just takes the cake. It only takes one of us to be having a bad day and have a go back, then we get insulted and everyone jumps on. You can't honestly tell me that if you saw your mate being called all sorts of names you wouldn't jump in and help out.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I have taken to sitting back and watching recently theres no good discussion threads on here anymore to get involved in, they all just end in a slagging match, and for that reason I have been keeping myself to myself


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Perhaps if the issues you raised were ignored ? 
stupid questions ? dont answer them, simples.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

wohic said:


> Perhaps if the issues you raised were ignored ?
> stupid questions ? dont answer them, simples.


Would that it were so easy. I say again, we're human. I would love to ignore every stupid post, but I'm a person with a breaking point. Now and again, possibly to my own detriment, I snap.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> This is what happens when we get it wrong:
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ng_bite_from_Bothrops_asper_PLoS_Medicine.jpg
> 
> ...


Not if you keep Elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Not if you keep Elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Last time I checked, spitters were elapids.
Not that any of those are spitter bites, but they do the same.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Would that it were so easy. I say again, we're human. I would love to ignore every stupid post, but I'm a person with a breaking point. Now and again, possibly to my own detriment, I snap.


I have just written almost the same on a reply to a dig at mods thread, i know how tough it gets when people come across as less that intellectual........
All I can say though is report or ignore, if you feed the trolls they will come back for more, make it boring for them in here and they will go and find somewhere else to play


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Nooooooo, dont leave! Just us the block function, at least that sifts the crap out for you! It would be a shame to lose a keeper that keeps the 'different' stuffs, rather than your 'run of the mill' stuffs!


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

wohic said:


> I have just written almost the same on a reply to a dig at mods thread, i know how tough it gets when people come across as less that intellectual........
> All I can say though is report or ignore, if you feed the trolls they will come back for more, make it boring for them in here and they will go and find somewhere else to play


You're right dude. I know. I will try hard to ignore the trolls. Just one thing more to post. You'll know when you read it....


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Not if you keep Elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Out of interest, have you kept any elapids?
(there you go wohic, I'm done now).


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Nooooooo, dont leave! Just us the block function, at least that sifts the crap out for you! It would be a shame to lose a keeper that keeps the 'different' stuffs, rather than your 'run of the mill' stuffs!


Don't worry, I'm staying. At least for now anyway. Might just be me on my lonesome though.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Out of interest, have you kept any elapids?
> (there you go wohic, I'm done now).


Nope I havnt,


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Nope I havnt,


There you go then.
Oh, and just because it's rather ironic....... :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Not if you keep Elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Maybe you should checkout some Asian elapid bites!


John


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Case. In. Point.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Maybe you should checkout some Asian elapid bites!
> 
> 
> John


Cheers John, as always, you rescue us from fiction with what I like to call..... FACT. :notworthy:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Maybe you should checkout some Asian elapid bites!
> 
> 
> John


I know many elapids have 3 finger toxins - But I've never seen a Elapid cause total necrosis of the leg,


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Don't worry, I'm staying. At least for now anyway. Might just be me on my lonesome though.


Eh, I'll stay and ask stupid questions to make it worth keeping the lights on


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Eh, I'll stay and ask stupid questions to make it worth keeping the lights on


Wouldn't have it any other way dude.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I know many elapids have 3 finger toxins - But I've never seen a Elapid cause total necrosis of the leg,


Stay online long enough for me to take a pic of a page in a book and you'll see spitter bites.


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I know many elapids have 3 finger toxins - But I've never seen a Elapid cause total necrosis of the leg,


Do some research on N naja or N kaouthia. But as has already been mentioned spitters are well documented for severe local effects, research N mozambica.


John


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

I understand that some spitting cobras can cause considerable necrosis as can Pseudechis australis, But they having nothing on the tissue death that a Bothrops can cause..


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I understand that some spitting cobras can cause considerable necrosis as can Pseudechis australis, But they having nothing on the tissue death that a Bothrops can cause..


When I can find it I'll send you a pic of a spitter bite that says otherwise. 
African spitter venom is necrotic in ways that will keep you up at night. Amputations are common following bites.


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I understand that some spitting cobras can cause considerable necrosis as can Pseudechis australis, But they having nothing on the tissue death that a Bothrops can cause..


I have a few pic's of N mozambica bite victims, were the tissus of limbs has sloughed off, exposing the underlying bones. Regardless of whether its a viperidae/crotalidae or an elapid, tissue death in some species can be extremley extensive, requiring major skin graphs and or amputation.


John


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

And please, do me a favour. Think before posting stuff like "unless you keep elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:".
That's the kind of crap driving the DWA keepers away from here in droves.
I presume you've never kept hots?
I presume you've never had a friend get bitten and nearly die?
I presume you've never had 2 friends get bitten?
I presume you've never had 3 friends get bitten?
etc, etc.
Still wanna post anything with :Na_Na_Na_Na: at the end?

I can answer yes to all the above. Can you?


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

JohnR said:


> I have a few pic's of N mozambica bite victims, were the tissus of limbs has sloughed off, exposing the underlying bones. Regardless of whether its a viperidae/crotalidae or an elapid, tissue death in some species can be extremley extensive, requiring major skin graphs and or amputation.
> 
> 
> John


Please share John. I think it's good for people to see what can happen when it really goes wrong.


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

Haven't got the time at the mo, to fire up the scanner, its too late and I'm too lazy :blush:. But if your on facebook then check out Swaziland Snake Bite Victims | Facebook

Swaziland snake bite victims.

John


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> And please, do me a favour. Think before posting stuff like "unless you keep elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:".
> That's the kind of crap driving the DWA keepers away from here in droves.
> I presume you've never kept hots?
> I presume you've never had a friend get bitten and nearly die?
> ...



Funnily enough I can, And I've never seen Elapid bites take off limbs, So intill I see pictures that your so keen to have I'll be standing back...

Im off out now, So I'll be back later : victory:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> And please, do me a favour. Think before posting stuff like "unless you keep elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:".
> That's the kind of crap driving the DWA keepers away from here in droves.
> I presume you've never kept hots?
> I presume you've never had a friend get bitten and nearly die?
> ...


Lovely post for the Antis aswell :2thumb:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Lovely post for the Antis aswell :2thumb:


Yup, my fault as usual. Go play in traffic.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Lovely post for the Antis aswell :2thumb:


Not everyone who gets bit is bitten by a captive "pet" snake, Snakewispera.... are we going to sit there and throw our hands in the air about anti-keepers hearing about people who step on _wild _snakes, or who make a living working with wild snakes?


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Firstly, let me say it will be a great shame if Stuart goes he has made some interesting and helpful posts not just on hots but all things snake related.

Secondly, I'm sure I could be accused of making some bone head comments on here in the past and I hold my hands up that it is largely down to laziness, you can't be bothered to research something so you chuck it out there and see what happens. I am quick to appologise for offence caused when it happens though, whereas some feel it better to argue a point with which they have no grounding to argue from.

There seems to be a pretty negative buzz running through the whole forum at the minute and if people like Stuart go it will just be leaving the lunatics to run the asylum, with new keepers taking bad advice as gospel as it came from someone who has made a few posts.

Thats all I have to say on the matter:lol2:


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## bloodpython22 (Feb 19, 2010)

terciopelo_dave said:


> And please, do me a favour. Think before posting stuff like "unless you keep elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:".
> That's the kind of crap driving the DWA keepers away from here in droves.
> I presume you've never kept hots?
> I presume you've never had a friend get bitten and nearly die?
> ...


hey dave after you rang me i had to come and look on here i also can snswer yes to all them questions, and since certain people are winding up. have been in touch with ray hunter and he is sending me over some data and bite pics to show you are right mate , , , why tell them to play in traffic they came come play with the spittter you will be helping me with : victory:


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

I think its a real shame anybody capable of giving first class advice and with years of experience should be driven away from posting,the time and patience initially showed towards Viperlover shows the calibre and generousity of those who are disillusioned.
Its not very regularly i look in the DWA section but some of the posts and threads by the experts have given me a real understanding of the true reason why people do keep DWA,even inspired me to buy some books to increase my own knowledge not with the view to eventually keeping DWA but because i found the passion and enthusiasm displayed contagious.
Before seeing some of the pictures posted by Stuart Douglas of the Adder i didnt realise what a beautiful and fascinating snake it was and one that can be found on my own doorstep.
DWA keepers are a minority group and as such are often misunderstood or viewed as elitist but many of the posts on here by those who have real hands on experience help to challenge those perceptions and more importantly to educate and for that reason it would be good if people that have stopped posting would reconsider.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> And please, do me a favour. Think before posting stuff like "unless you keep elapids :Na_Na_Na_Na:".
> That's the kind of crap driving the DWA keepers away from here in droves.
> I presume you've never kept hots?
> I presume you've never had a friend get bitten and nearly die?
> ...


You are right...
He can't answer yes to keeping hots....
He can answer yes to having friends bitten,
and he can answer yes to having Bryan Grieg fry on line telling him what to say about your bite claims....:Na_Na_Na_Na:
Naughty boy Bryan.... You were telling him porkies were you. I knew we should listen to a forumite and not the worlds leading toxicologist.... Silly us:whistling2:


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## mattsdragons (Jul 6, 2009)

sorry to see such a amazing person leave RFUK. i wish people didn's post the same old ****, and not all us young keepers are like viperlover.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> But then, if all the good guys - the knowledgeable keepers and breeders of the species listed - disappear, then it won't get any better, will it?
> 
> It'll be a shame to see a real keeper go.


Unfortunately it is symptomatic of the whole forum, not just this section.

There are some who really know their herps but it all gets lost in the sycophantic, moronic bullshit that the other 90% insist on posting.

I think moderation should include a short, sharp reminder to people about what this forum is for!!

Yes, people want to chat and that is what off topic is for. Then all the sections want their own. No, one is enough!!

Pretenders and f**kwits, instant ban. Get rid. It is killing the forum and all that will be left will be the tweenies passing out regurgitated knowledge as if it were their own (for examples, see ANY 'how to keep' thread). Too many people on here with 5 minutes experience and a lifetime of knowledge.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SW-morelia said:


> You are right...
> He can't answer yes to keeping hots....
> He can answer yes to having friends bitten,
> and he can answer yes to having Bryan Grieg fry on line telling him what to say about your bite claims....:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> Naughty boy Bryan.... You were telling him porkies were you. I knew we should listen to a forumite and not the worlds leading toxicologist.... Silly us:whistling2:


I seriously doubt that Bryan Fry would question that African spitting cobras cause massive tissue destruction. Plainly and simply because they do. Say what you like, name drop all you like. That is a fact you can't argue.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> I seriously doubt that Bryan Fry would question that African spitting cobras cause massive tissue destruction. Plainly and simply because they do. Say what you like, name drop all you like. That is a fact you can't argue.


I or him never said they did, I just stated that Bothrops Kill more flesh etc
And you wanted to argue about it?


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I or him never said they did, I just stated that Bothrops Kill more flesh etc
> And you wanted to argue about it?


The tissue destruction from Bothrops sp is horrific, but african spitters can rival it. If you can track down the book "Dangerous Snakes of Africa" by Bill Branch and Steven Spawls there's a pic in there of a leg that is absolutely destroyed. That kind of wound is not rare.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> I seriously doubt that Bryan Fry would question that African spitting cobras cause massive tissue destruction. Plainly and simply because they do. Say what you like, name drop all you like. That is a fact you can't argue.


I wasn't name dropping, just pointing out the wonders of the web.... We can talk with experts at the touch of a button and we don't have to believe self proclaimed expert DWAL keepers.... Shame but it's a fact



SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I or him never said they did, I just stated that Bothrops Kill more flesh etc
> And you wanted to argue about it?


Yep that's how I saw it as well.... Thats the wonders of being able to read and understand plain English and not just argue the toss....
Can I ask if Paul Rowley has a DWAL.... Cos he posts on here???
Oh I forgot:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> The tissue destruction from Bothrops sp is horrific, but african spitters can rival it. If you can track down the book "Dangerous Snakes of Africa" by Bill Branch and Steven Spawls there's a pic in there of a leg that is absolutely destroyed. That kind of wound is not rare.


But Bothrops are much more devastating...


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> But Bothrops are much more devastating...


Only by virtue of how deep the venom is injected. Without proper management, both will rot a leg to the point of requiring amputation.
And if I recall, I never questioned the ability of Bothrops venom to cause necrosis. I merely said certain elapid bites did too. That's what you were questioning, so next time you talk to Dr Fry, please try not to pass on half a message.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SW-morelia said:


> Thats the wonders of being able to read and understand plain English


Go back, re-read the whole thing, and try following your own advice.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Only by virtue of how deep the venom is injected. Without proper management, both will rot a leg to the point of requiring amputation.
> And if I recall, I never questioned the ability of Bothrops venom to cause necrosis. I merely said certain elapid bites did too. That's what you were questioning, so next time you talk to Dr Fry, please try not to pass on half a message.


I think the fact of the matter is.... You don't have to keep DWAL to understand the fundamentals of venomous keeping.... You made a big play in stating the fact that only DWAL keepers should have an opinion.... Obviously you were wrong.... I don't doubt that the likes of VL annoy most of you.... So keep off public forums and start your own closed FB group and discuss all you like.... If you want to post on a public forum, expect the curious public to join in..... Simples


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

SW-morelia said:


> I think the fact of the matter is.... You don't have to keep DWAL to understand the fundamentals of venomous keeping.... You made a big play in stating the fact that only DWAL keepers should have an opinion.... Obviously you were wrong.... I don't doubt that the likes of VL annoy most of you.... So keep off public forums and start your own closed FB group and discuss all you like.... If you want to post on a public forum, expect the curious public to join in..... Simples


Curious I can cope with, and never once have I said that non DWAL holders can't hold opinions. They can and do, and are often valid. That isn't my point at all. You seem to be interpretting what I and many other DWA keepers say as an attack on anyone who doesn't keep them, but that couldn't be further from the truth. We all have our fair share of idiots to deal with, but our FAIR share was exceeded long ago.


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## bloodpython22 (Feb 19, 2010)

oh when did you speak to brian as asfar as i no he is on his way to malaysia


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

bloodpython22 said:


> oh when did you speak to brian as asfar as i no he is on his way to malaysia


About 2 o'clock on Welcome to Facebook! | Facebook

When he posted this status - Bryan Grieg Fry is packing for Malaysia. Bungarus, Calloselasma, Ophiophagus, Tropidolaemus and Calliophis await


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## bloodpython22 (Feb 19, 2010)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> About 2 o'clock on Welcome to Facebook! | Facebook
> 
> When he posted this status - Bryan Grieg Fry is packing for Malaysia. Bungarus, Calloselasma, Ophiophagus, Tropidolaemus and Calliophis await


 iam friends with him on there so i no, , but surely there are better people to talk to about this or is it just trying to get 1 over , dave was just putting pics on to share with people then other so called experts throw there to cents in who i take dont keep hots


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

bloodpython22 said:


> iam friends with him on there so i no, , but surely there are better people to talk to about this or is it just trying to get 1 over , dave was just putting pics on to share with people then other so called experts throw there to cents in who i take dont keep hots



I never called myself a expert - And so what if I dont keep hots what does that prove? You've been bitten by spitting cobras and Bothrops species to know which one is more destructive - no you've spoke to people and read books like me, I am to young to keep DWA, But next year I will be putting in my application, I wont think Im amazing when it gets granted like many of you do though : victory:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

You know what, I quit. I'm absolutely sick of this shit. You little players can keep your forum and good luck to you.
I've got Bryan as a facebook friend too, I've even Steve Irwin and Joe Slowinski on a Ouija board, but I don't choose to recycle their knowledge as my own. I post what I know. What I've taken the time to find out.
I'm done. Bye. Enjoy yourselves.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> You know what, I quit. I'm absolutely sick of this shit. You little players can keep your forum and good luck to you.
> I've got Bryan as a facebook friend too, I've even Steve Irwin and Joe Slowinski on a Ouija board, but I don't choose to recycle their knowledge as my own. I post what I know. What I've taken the time to find out.
> I'm done. Bye. Enjoy yourselves.


Oh you DWA keepers are bunch of wusses leaving the forum because of a debate...

Recycle knowledge? How many times have you been bitten by spitters and bothrops?


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Curious I can cope with, *and never once have I said that non DWAL holders can't hold opinions*. They can and do, and are often valid. That isn't my point at all. You seem to be interpretting what I and many other DWA keepers say as an attack on anyone who doesn't keep them, but that couldn't be further from the truth. We all have our fair share of idiots to deal with, but our FAIR share was exceeded long ago.


When you started asking if he ever kept was a bit of a give away....
Then when you asked if he knew anyone who has been bit.... The train of thought grew stronger. (Fact is, a friend of ours lost the end of a finger due to _Ophiophagus hannah)
_Then you _presumed_ for him (a classic superiority trait) that you knew his answers! So I _presumed_ (see what I done there... LOL) you were claiming exclusivity.... Seems we had our wires crossed 
Yes we all get our share of numpties, and we all deal with it in a nice way..... We smile and answer the same old questions without the hint of either sarcasm or irony.... We pretend it's the first time we've ever been asked.... Why? Because the average Joe Blow hasn't seen a snake before.... You choose to keep DWAL and the average Joe Blow (who keeps snakes) is gonna be exactly the same.... Difference is.... You are on the bloody internet... Ignoring them is a choice you have..... To make a GBCW thread smacks of an inflated ego IMO.....
I answer questions all the time and try and educate. And so does every other snake/reptile/pet keeper. So why is it a big deal for this forum to deal with??? 




bloodpython22 said:


> oh when did you speak to brian as asfar as i no he is on his way to malaysia


Yep a scientist wouldn't have a mobile internet conection would he? 



SNAKEWISPERA said:


> About 2 o'clock on Welcome to Facebook! | Facebook
> 
> When he posted this status - Bryan Grieg Fry is packing for Malaysia. Bungarus, Calloselasma, Ophiophagus, Tropidolaemus and Calliophis await


Yep, 
that would be the time you couldn't contact him.....



terciopelo_dave said:


> You know what, I quit. I'm absolutely sick of this shit. You little players can keep your forum and good luck to you.
> I've got Bryan as a facebook friend too, I've even Steve Irwin and Joe Slowinski on a Ouija board, but I don't choose to recycle their knowledge as my own. I post what I know. What I've taken the time to find out.
> I'm done. Bye. Enjoy yourselves.


Bloody hell..... Everyone has BGF as a FB friend..... I even chat with him about Snakemaster24... He's VL's mate on a forum far away.........
Can I ask one question.....
Are you really gone..... Or coming back to see this
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> I wont think Im amazing when it gets granted like many of you do though : victory:


If you don't KNOW you're an amazing keeper before it gets granted.... well, I'll just say that, having seen a DWA keeper in action, I never realised before how good he was at handling snakes in general... or how sloppy I am by comparison.



SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Recycle knowledge? How many times have you been bitten by spitters and bothrops?


You don't have to have been *bitten* by something to have first-hand knowledge of what a species you've kept has the capability to do - you have much more incentive to have a very, very good idea of what the worst-case scenario is when it's YOUR worst case scenario.

Heck, being bitten by something doesn't mean you know anything about venom effects either. I don't know anything about the various components of _Crotalus viridis viridis _venom, nor even what the symptoms of a serious envenomation are... despite having stood on one. But you can bet that if I applied for a licence in order to own a C. viridis ... I would be aiming to be able to recite in my sleep those exact things that I don't know now.

Dave, I hope you don't give up on the forum - just as I hope that the other keepers who've said their goodbyes are just having a break and will come back sometime.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> If you don't KNOW you're an amazing keeper before it gets granted.... well, I'll just say that, having seen a DWA keeper in action, I never realised before how good he was at handling snakes in general... or how sloppy I am by comparison.


We get the chance to watch a couple of very good handlers at work...
They are excellent and extremely skillful, but I think that has got to be the easiest part of handling..... removing eyecaps and medication I could see as being a whole different ball game....



Ssthisto said:


> You don't have to have been *bitten* by something to have first-hand knowledge of what a species you've kept has the capability to do -
> 
> 
> > So would be recycled knowledge....:whistling2:


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## snakeboy101 (Jul 3, 2006)

Don't be a twat.

I mean that in the most respectable and friendly way possible lol
Seriously though I enjoy reading this forum I don't participate much because 2 reasons.
1. I have no real knowledge of any DWA animal that hasn't been covered in documentaries. 
2. I don't have any real desire to even consider owning any animals that require a license. If I would get one I would only keep small crocodilians.

But I enjoy greatly the information and pictures posted by the 'better' members of this forum. I understand how infuriating it can be to have people abuse you because you know more then them.

But if you leave how the hell are people going to learn? Do you really want to let them ruin a good thing? Sure leaving is easy and will save yourself a lot of bother but if you stay then you can pass on knowledge and help others maybe even help the hobby a little bit by clearing up misconceptions and educating morons.

Some pricks may give you abuse but leaving only contributes to the problem. I don't want to live in a world where idiots run surpreme and educated/informed people are too afraid to open their mouths. Idiots should be afraid of the educated/informed not the other way around.

Hell you don't even have to 'rise above it' feel free to be as pissed off as you wish but use that aggression to combat those who ruin it for everyone else.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree with Mike, day to day maintenance is the straight forward bit, alot of what we do is common sense, now with problems such as retained sheds eye caps, non feeders thats where it gets "fun"


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## snakeboy101 (Jul 3, 2006)

SiUK said:


> I agree with Mike, day to day maintenance is the straight forward bit, alot of what we do is common sense, now with problems such as retained sheds eye caps, non feeders thats where it gets "fun"


Common sense to me means walking around in a suit of armour when around any animal that can give me a prolonged painful death.

Then again I am a coward.:lol2:


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

There are still a few legitimate DWA holders on here reading the threads and making the odd comment. If you're all realy nice and polite to all of us that are left, and ask well thought out questions that provoke intelligent answers and debate, you may attract some of the old regulars back.
We have the right to be arrogant, big headed, and up ourselves. We are more aware of that than you are. Most of us have been through hell and high water to qualify for our licences, let alone the expense. Superiority comes with the licence. Consequently, we do not suffer fools, especially those who's drop down bar contains their collections of stick insects, guppys and other childrens pets. Try to refrain from asking "what happens if you get bit by that"? We're tired of that one. If you are genuinely interested in a genuine query then you will be given expert advice from some of the most expert and qualified people IN THE WORLD, including eminent herpetologist, Wolfgang Wuster, Mark O'Shea and Paul Rowley. 
To anyone actively seeking a DWA licence, this forum may play a very important role. Good advice from established keepers may be invaluable, from legal issues to choice of species. Don't ruin it for them by being rude or annoying or you will drive the rest of the DWA holders away and this section of the forum will die.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

southwest vipers said:


> There are still a few legitimate DWA holders on here reading the threads and making the odd comment. If you're all realy nice and polite to all of us that are left, and ask well thought out questions that provoke intelligent answers and debate, you may attract some of the old regulars back.
> We have the right to be arrogant, big headed, and up ourselves. We are more aware of that than you are. Most of us have been through hell and high water to qualify for our licences, let alone the expense. Superiority comes with the licence. Consequently, we do not suffer fools, especially those who's drop down bar contains their collections of stick insects, guppys and other childrens pets. Try to refrain from asking "what happens if you get bit by that"? We're tired of that one. If you are genuinely interested in a genuine query then you will be given expert advice from some of the most expert and qualified people IN THE WORLD, including eminent herpetologist, Wolfgang Wuster, Mark O'Shea and Paul Rowley.
> To anyone actively seeking a DWA licence, this forum may play a very important role. Good advice from established keepers may be invaluable, from legal issues to choice of species. Don't ruin it for them by being rude or annoying or you will drive the rest of the DWA holders away and this section of the forum will die.


So just ignore them............. If they do not seem worthy of a reply..
As for being superior because you decided to go through hell and high water and lets not forget the expense.... That's called personal choice... The same choice you have as to whether you decide to answer any questions........
I don't answer every Morelia question that is asked...... And I don't get upset at someone elses answers..... And I don't make GBCW threads.... I just get over it....


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

southwest vipers said:


> There are still a few legitimate DWA holders on here reading the threads and making the odd comment. If you're all realy nice and polite to all of us that are left, and ask well thought out questions that provoke intelligent answers and debate, you may attract some of the old regulars back.
> We have the right to be arrogant, big headed, and up ourselves. We are more aware of that than you are. Most of us have been through hell and high water to qualify for our licences, let alone the expense. Superiority comes with the licence. Consequently, we do not suffer fools, especially those who's drop down bar contains their collections of stick insects, guppys and other childrens pets. Try to refrain from asking "what happens if you get bit by that"? We're tired of that one. If you are genuinely interested in a genuine query then you will be given expert advice from some of the most expert and qualified people IN THE WORLD, including eminent herpetologist, Wolfgang Wuster, Mark O'Shea and Paul Rowley.
> To anyone actively seeking a DWA licence, this forum may play a very important role. Good advice from established keepers may be invaluable, from legal issues to choice of species. Don't ruin it for them by being rude or annoying or you will drive the rest of the DWA holders away and this section of the forum will die.


TBH If thats your attitude you may as well all leave and guess what people come and go all the time and the forum and reptile keeping keeps on going just fine without them.
Non DWA keepers like to read about reptiles and talk to other keepers nobody gets the hump if people dont kiss there a** and people who think they are Superia to all other keepers because they keep hots come accross like the t*ats who think they are better than other snake keepers because they have a burm not a corn.
If the people on this forum are not worth talking to go start your own forum and talk to each other and keep it locked. Dont come on hear saying your fed up and gonna leave like your the best thing to ever happen to rep keeping and the hobby will die without you.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

SW-morelia said:


> So just ignore them............. If they do not seem worthy of a reply..


I think some of the concern is that some of the questions asked provoke responses from people who *don't* know enough about the topic and are giving poor or even dangerous advice.... and when someone who DOES know and comes in with good advice and corrects the bad, they get bowled over with the "don't be mean to little Billy, he's only new, why you shout at him?" 

Like James, who once decided to advise on how and when to force feed a snake.... when he's never owned a reptile. His advice could have killed someone's snake. Should I have "let that stand" and ignored the "unworthy" post, or should I have jumped in and said "what are you talking about? Have you ever actually DONE that?"



rum&coke said:


> TBH If thats your attitude you may as well all leave


Please note, DWA keepers who are still actually on here, the above opinion does not represent all the participants in the DWA section. I think it's a shame to lose any member who might have experience or knowledge that I don't - because I'd like to benefit from that experience and knowledge.



> Non DWA keepers like to read about reptiles and talk to other keepers nobody gets the hump if people dont kiss there a**


Guess you don't read enough threads in the Snakes section... there's some serious hierarchical jostling there, and arguments over who should apply lips to whose posterior. 



> and people who think they are Superia to all other keepers because they keep hots come accross like the t*ats who think they are better than other snake keepers because they have a burm not a corn.


In speaking to the DWA keepers I've spoken to, I have never once felt like they've looked down on me for what I keep. They have all seemed passionate about LOTS of different snake species, and we have had common ground (Dinky albino retic! Friendly radiated ratsnake!) to talk about as well as the species I don't keep. 

If there is a better UK-biased (i.e. aware of the licencing requirements rather than US-biased "Just go and collect a rattler from your back garden") forum for venomous keepers out there, could someone please PM me a link?


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm amazed that people are attacking these keepers and forcing them off the site.

I agree that keeping hots does put you above what *MOST *keepers on here are capable of. 

The knowledge they have is invaluable to people looking to get into DWA, I agree that sometimes some replies can seem a little guarded but don't ask the question if you can't deal with the answer!

Losing Stuart and Dave is only hurting this forum and a little bit of healthy respect would go a long way. These guy's have first hand experience which is a world away from anything you can read in a book.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> I think some of the concern is that some of the questions asked provoke responses from people who *don't* know enough about the topic and are giving poor or even dangerous advice.... and when someone who DOES know and comes in with good advice and corrects the bad, they get bowled over with the "don't be mean to little Billy, he's only new, why you shout at him?"
> 
> Like James, who once decided to advise on how and when to force feed a snake.... when he's never owned a reptile. His advice could have killed someone's snake. Should I have "let that stand" and ignored the "unworthy" post, or should I have jumped in and said "what are you talking about? Have you ever actually DONE that?"
> 
> ...


I can see what you are saying and I also do feel for the op and others on the DWA forum who are getting fed up with stupid posts.
But my point is keeping hots is just another part of keeping, I dont think people who keep DWA are anything special, Yes I would love for them all to stay and share with us what they know.There are lots of people in all sections of this forum with lots of valuable and usefull knowledge, I cant see any other experts on this forum come accross quite so argumentative as DWA keepers you dont get the experts in genetics or habitat or diet etc get up on there high horses and get into huge arguments with posters because they get a fact wrong in there posts when they ask questions.
Yeah sure get annoyed if people keep on making stupid threads but dont throw your toys out the pram and say your gonna leave just because people wont kiss your as*.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

SW-morelia said:


> Can I ask if Paul Rowley has a DWAL.... Cos he posts on here???


Question: What is a DWAL?
Answer: A licence issued by County Councils so that members of the *Public* can legally keep a range of living creatures that have the potential to cause serious injury or death.

From 1979 – 1992 I worked under the Zoo Licensing Act .
From 1993 I have worked under a Personal Licence and Institutional Licence issued by the Home Office (UK Government).

While at work I do not use terms like DWAL or non – DWAL because they are meaningless, I work with venomous snakes.

About the only time I encounter the term in a professional capacity is when County Councils contact me for advice and assistance when a member of the public submits an application for a DWAL and they want to know about the suitability of the species the person has listed or the suitability of the person themselves to keep venomous snakes. You can get a feel of who is genuine and who is on an ego trip (they tend to list Taipans, King Cobras and Black Mambas as their first choice). I always help where I can, especially if I know the person.


Regards,
Paul


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

PDR said:


> Question: What is a DWAL?
> Answer: A licence issued by County Councils so that members of the *Public* can legally keep a range of living creatures that have the potential to cause serious injury or death.
> 
> From 1979 – 1992 I worked under the Zoo Licensing Act .
> ...


I knew that Paul... 
I just picked you as someone I knew wouldn't hold the DWAL and yet your posts are welcome because of your experience...:notworthy:
I hope you didn't mind me roping you in as an example.....


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

I don’t mind at all
I just thought it was worth explaining for other members...... sometimes they think a person must be illegal because they don’t have a DWAL :whistling2:


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

its all a bit of a shame really, I have never found venomous keepers closed at all, rather the opposite, when i learnt people bent over backwards to teach me, but Pauls completely right, 3 weeks in a row i had different people ring me saying they were getting a dwa, never kept venomous before and they wanted to know where to get mambas from, being honest how much research had they done to come to the conclusion a mamba is a good first venomous, I spoke to a moderator today and said why couldnt we pin the topics where dwal applications are gone through and where starter venomous is talked about, apparently pinned topics arent read, i would have thought people would have used the search facility on the forum but hey. I think it is very harsh saying whats been said about some of the keepers on here, and although i accept i am a grumpy keeper, the likes of Paul Rowley, Tom Charlton, Dave Nixon, Brian Petrie Stuart Douglas and Graeme skinner spend alot of time posting pictures talking with people about venomous, yet they seem to gain nothing but critisism on here, not very fair i feel.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

It will be a shame if they leave thats for sure, I know it comes accross as I'm attacking them for there attitude but its because I want them to stay and see that this forum has always been a good place for them and recent posts have been getting to them more than they shuld do maybe because there is bad attitude on both sides.TBH this whole DWA keepers leaving just smells of another forum trying to boost members by starting sh*t on hear


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

talk about paranoid, i know from talking to them there just leaving period,


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

rum&coke said:


> It will be a shame if they leave thats for sure, I know it comes accross as I'm attacking them for there attitude but its because I want them to stay and see that this forum has always been a good place for them and recent posts have been getting to them more than they shuld do maybe because there is bad attitude on both sides.TBH this whole DWA keepers leaving just smells of another forum trying to boost members by starting sh*t on hear


Yep and the world will end in 2012.


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## jasper1 (Apr 15, 2007)

Owzy said:


> Yep and the world will end in 2012.


Before or after the Olympics? I don't want to miss the ladies beach volleyball:2thumb:


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi all,
It is a great shame it has come to this. I don`t know why people can`t ignore posts they think are "unworthy" of a reply, this, after all says more about the topic than 100 posts with arguments on both sides about a subject that normally goes off topic after the second post.
This is the problem with "opinions", everybody is entitled to their own, surely, as adults, we can accept this. I don`t mean we should not debate the point, but we should try to keep it on a friendly basis.
And I agree, womens beach volleyball is the best sport in the world, now, surely nobody can argue with that.
All the best,
Brian.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Owzy said:


> Yep and the world will end in 2012.


 :lol2:I know, I saw the film so it must be true.:lol2:


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## ljkenny (Mar 5, 2007)

tigersnake said:


> Hi all,
> It is a great shame it has come to this. I don`t know why people can`t ignore posts they think are "unworthy" of a reply, this, after all says more about the topic than 100 posts with arguments on both sides about a subject that normally goes off topic after the second post.
> This is the problem with "opinions", everybody is entitled to their own, surely, as adults, we can accept this. I don`t mean we should not debate the point, but we should try to keep it on a friendly basis.
> And I agree, womens beach volleyball is the best sport in the world, now, surely nobody can argue with that.
> ...


Nice post Brian.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

rum&coke said:


> this whole DWA keepers leaving just smells of another forum trying to boost members by starting sh*t on hear


Thats way off the mark as there are a number of specialist forums to which we all contribute including one's abroad where you need to use your real name. Using your own name effectively means that you cannot hide behind a pet name and act like an idiot. Those caught using false names for what ever reason are banned.

The venomous community is a small one where everyone effectively knows everyone!

Unfortunately for whatever reason RFUK has ended up with a bad name, viewed by many venomous keepers as having input by the lower end of the gene pool.

That might offend some but when you are hounded, pestered and yes irritated continually what else are you to think?

The authorities and press who log on to this forum and its DWA section must be either laughing at some of the halfwited posts or thank their lucky starts that we have a reasonably effective licence system.

Can you imagine the consequences if some of the posters on this site had venomous species?

Those with a real genuine interest in finding out about hot critters can easily do so, those just making silly posts should try and refrain form doing so and leave.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> Thats way off the mark as there are a number of specialist forums to which we all contribute including one's abroad where you need to use your real name. Using your own name effectively means that you cannot hide behind a pet name and act like an idiot. Those caught using false names for what ever reason are banned.
> 
> The venomous community is a small one where everyone effectively knows everyone!
> 
> ...


Which is why we shouldn't discourage them from posting.....: victory:
Bench marks are there for a reason..... LMAO


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## RicDerby (Mar 22, 2009)

Well this sucks everyone starts leaving just as I build up the courage to start posting in here!


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