# Amphibian IMPORT ban, coming soon!



## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Have I missed it or has there been no mention of the proposed ban on the importation of ANY amphibians into the UK?

I haven't too many details but after speaking to a couple of the largest 'herp' importers in the UK they are both pretty confident that a ban could be in place soon, perhaps within the next 6 months!


----------



## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

also Chris, any comments on this? Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred :: View topic - *FBH - IMPORTANT - Chris*


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

There are two issues at present, once concerns a UK ban on all amphibians, the other is a prohibition of trade in wild caught reptiles and amphibians. 

The former issue, a ban on import of amphibians into the UK is possible, but unlikely, certainly not in the foreseeable future. However, what is a major threat is the prohibition on the important of wild caught reptiles and amphibians, as this is EU legislation. The same mechanism as used for the bird trade. The major problem with this is it COULD actually ban imports of ALL reptile and amphibians, not just wild caught animals. 

As yet neither issue has gone out for public consultation.


----------



## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Scary stuff...


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Scott W said:


> also Chris, any comments on this? Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred :: View topic - *FBH - IMPORTANT - Chris*


Chris, 
No matter how many times the FBH ask for support and for people to write to their local mp's or other agencies the actual number of people that do so is tiny! 

Everytime I can almost guarantee you the reason why is that people DO NOT KNOW how to respond. Again everytime I suggest that the FBH give an example of how and what to write but I don't believe this to happen at all. 

Look at this link, this is in response to the proposed ban of boids in the USA. It bascially allows ANYONE to send off a letter and feeling confident they won't look silly etc Kingsnake.com - Herpforum - Time To Reply to FWS - Here Is How! 

Isn't it about bloody time we were able to do something similar??? 

DEFRA's thinking of introducing a cost recovery on the CITES application process...that would be a good start!!! 

Then there's the potential TOTAL BAN on amphibian species being imported, this is a reaction to the fungal virus that is wiping out wild populations elsewhere in the world....AGAIN..should we not be addressing this? 

What about our concerns with the RSPCA? a mass of letters to the charity commision may open peoples eys? 

I'm sure there's many issues that if enough people wrote in then it can only help our cause. 

If you AREN'T capable Chris, then isn't it about time you stopped running the FBH like a one man band, there's MANY people out there that can get involved and WANT to get involved.



Scott I have chosen to answer your criticisms here, rather than on the other forum as I simply do not have to chase around different forums.

Firstly as far as I am aware there are no proposals to ban important of boids into the UK or the EU, so there is no point in following the lead set by Kinsnake.com. Should such a situation arise then it would be worth while considering. Having said that, however, considering the numbers of petitions started, and the number of people who have responded, it has been very disappointing! 

Regards to the possible amphibian ban, I have responded above. However, now this information is in the public domain our opponents will now be aware of the issue and our good friend Mr Clifford Warwick will now be a world authority on *Chytrid* fungus, not overly helpful.

I agree that a getting people to write to the Charities Commission re the RSPCA would be helpful. However, it would be even more helpful if we actually has a specific issue to complain about! Simply saying that we don’t like them very much is unlikely to carry much weight! For the passed few years the RSPCA have backed off reptiles, therefore we need to enact this at the appropriate time. Nevertheless it is a good idea.

Certainly people need to get more involved, but we need to get people motivated at the right time.


----------



## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Chris, if you read the post carefully you will see that I'm not talking about the actual threat facing our American friends but rather the professional way in which they have provided the information and what the 'everyday' hobbyist can do. Not just a 'the end is nigh' type post that we get over here.


As for suggesting that me posting the potential amphibian ban will make Warwicks work easier, that just stupid. Surely the many 1000's of amphibian keepers that visit the various forums should know about such a threat, again MOTIVATING them into taken positive action and IF we were organised like the Yanks we would be able to point them into the right direction on what they can do.


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Scott, the system here in the UK is very different to that in the US, it is also fair to say that the US have not suffered a fraction of the issues (at a national level) that we have here in the UK. 

Most decision making here is done behind closed doors, what you see by the time you get a ‘public consultation’ is what you get, there is very little change. Cast you mind back over the last few public consultations which affect keepers and you will see what I mean!

What you need to bear in mind is that the pro lobby in this country is not strong, if you take all the trade organisations, PCT, OATA, PFMA, PPRA, REPTA etc our combined income (strength) is less than £1 million, Animal Aid alone have an income well in excess of this! If you just take the top ten Animal Rights organisations there annual income exceed £250 million!! The RSPCAs budget for parliamentary lobbying is five times greater that the pro trades entire income!

In effect what this means is if you want to take these fights into the public domains we will get slaughtered – full stop.


----------



## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

Not sure how many of you browse the american forums, so thought i'd post this clip,

YouTube - US Fish & Wildlife Service NOI Response Video

Looks simple and effective. You mentioned that if we found ourselves in a similar situation copying the americans might be a situation worth considering.. so figured i'd share a video they've made.

If we would get slaughtered due to funding then i fail to see how we're benefiting from the pro-keepers point of view. I agree with Scott, all we seem to hear in the UK is doom and gloom, there's never anything positive to say. Most of the time when the keepers make a suggestion, the suggestion is blanked like in this thread and then we get the sob story that it's not worth fighting for - the anti's will beat us. It really doesn't makes it worth while having any debate with average keepers/breeders if mostly everything is reduced to the "we are going to lose" kind of attitude.

I'm far from the most knowledgable on this topic, so i'll just leave it for you lot to discuss, i just thought i'd express my thoughts.


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Perhaps you could point out exactly what we have lost! 

Did the Animal Welfare Act prohibit reptile keeping – no
Did the review of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act go against us – no
Did the By-Products Regulations go against us - no
Did the Animal Transport Regulations go against us – no
Did the use of CITES Article 8.2 go against us – no
Has the Non-Native Species policy gone against us – no.

Perhaps you have noticed a theme! 

The above are just a few of the issues that had potential huge implications for keepers and trade, all have eventually had satisfactory outcomes. Sure for some of us all we see is dome and glum, as soon as one piece of cr*p is cleared off you desk two others land. But as our American friends say ‘sh*t happens’ - you just have to learn to deal with it! If you want good news, well the good news is there is no bad news today, at least. 

As for alerting our opponents to issues they are not aware of, sorry I think it is not a partially sensible thing to do – but hey what do I know!


----------



## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

Scott W said:


> Have I missed it or has there been no mention of the proposed ban on the importation of ANY amphibians into the UK?
> 
> I haven't too many details but after speaking to a couple of the largest 'herp' importers in the UK they are both pretty confident that a ban could be in place soon, perhaps within the next 6 months!


Isn't this Ban on importing amphibians to do with the disease (fungus) that is wiping out millions of species of amphibians?and to date there is no cure for it...so therefore to prevent the spread of the disease then they are putting an ban on imports (i'm sure as a temporary thing until they know more) to protect the UK amphibian population! It has nothing to do with the C:censor going round about stopping people from keeping reptiles.


----------



## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

i dont really have a massive problem with wild caught phibs being banned but captive bred seems a little extreme aslong as there transported properly


----------



## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

Chris Newman said:


> Perhaps you could point out exactly what we have lost!
> 
> Did the Animal Welfare Act prohibit reptile keeping – no
> Did the review of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act go against us – no
> ...


Don't worry Chris, i wasn't implying just you. I'm not saying you have lost anything, i'm just talking about the tone everything is said in.. i could be annoying and dig up threads but i don't see any need to, most of it is doom and gloom and you've said so yourself in this post. If you're winning all this then great (in fact excellent!!), but i'm making a point of saying - with proposed bans on this and that, we get plenty scaremongering and little positivity on the matter.

Perhaps people don't contribute as much because it depresses them every time they read something it's negative... then the only comments that follow on reiterate that negativity... i.e. "the anti's have so much money" followed by another user comment of "thats crap" etc etc. (these comments have not been made, i'm giving examples and occasionally people make suggestions)

I don't mind admitting something else either. I had never heard of the FBH or anything else for that matter; anti's, RSPCA hidden agenda's until i came on this forum. From what you've said though, publicly fighting them is a no no, but i'd like to see more and more people know about the FBH etc, so people not in the know can make a choice of contribution - i still think there could be more contributions made by others around, even if its just to help funding thus helping you guys. I'm not trying to be a cheeky git here, but also realise i should tread carefully and i'm trying to approach you nicely  , i wonder... here's another suggestion and from myself...

How are you advertised? I have just run a few random google checks to see if any websites come up.. searches include - reptiles, reptile care, snakes and pythons... i stopped there...

Those would be quite common searches i believe and i cant find any pro-keeper's websites?

I've been in and out of our local reptile shops plenty of times over the years and never is there a mention of pro-keepers... even if it was a poster on a wall or something.. so i've owned reptiles for 8 years (subtract one year from using this forum and time taken to discover who you are) and never have I been given a choice to contribute, because i've never known anything about it... all i'd have known in the past is RSPCA = animal help, animal care.

You type "animal care" into google and the RSPCA are second from the top.

I'm probably being dumb so put me out my misery if i am, it's probably the first time i've actually made an effort to talk to you. You mention the pro-keepers have less funds compared to the anti's, yet there's very little advertising. I also read that reptile shops are meant to donate such and such to the FBH but lots of reptile shops don't?


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The FBH website is here http://www.f-b-h.co.uk/ I willing concede it needs much updating. The other organisation I represent is FOCAS http://www.focas-uk.info
This is for all pet keeping. REPTA, well I must concede yet again we have not got off our collective posteriors and have a website running.

As for a bit of info about me, here’s a link http://www.petstreet.co.uk/owner_profile.aspx?ID=626


----------



## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

BecciBoo said:


> Isn't this Ban on importing amphibians to do with the disease (fungus) that is wiping out millions of species of amphibians?and to date there is no cure for it...so therefore to prevent the spread of the disease then they are putting an ban on imports (i'm sure as a temporary thing until they know more) to protect the UK amphibian population! It has nothing to do with the C:censor going round about stopping people from keeping reptiles.


Most probably... but its all too little too late as Chytrid fungus is already in the uk.. ARG UK - Amphibian and Reptile Groups of United Kingdom


----------



## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

BecciBoo said:


> Isn't this Ban on importing amphibians to do with the disease (fungus) that is wiping out millions of species of amphibians?and to date there is no cure for it...so therefore to prevent the spread of the disease then they are putting an ban on imports (i'm sure as a temporary thing until they know more) to protect the UK amphibian population! It has nothing to do with the C:censor going round about stopping people from keeping reptiles.


 
Yes the ban is a knee jerk reaction to the spread of the fungal virus, BUT the UK amphibian population has already had it for years. Also on what evidence is there to suggest that pet trade amphibians are what is actually spreading the disease, so far none.


----------



## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

A Year ago I was asked to participate in a study of the amphibians we both kept and shipped from our Indonesian farm.
I met Dr Kate Smith and Dr Pete Daszak (and old brit reptile keeper whose name you may recognise, who now heads up a big conservation organisiation in New York) at our farm in Indo.
This was a risk, but I knew Pete was honest and would use the data found honestly and appropriately.
Thy were unable to identify the fungus in any of the thousands of amphibians we kept there.
Pete's organisation also did a study into H5N1 avain flu.
It showed that no pet trade birds were responsible for its spread. Migratory birds contributed but the poultry trade was the primary distribitor.
So even after these facts were identified the pet bird trade was stopped and the poultry trade was allowed to continue.
So don't for one minute believe that the facts will guide the legislation!


----------



## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> Perhaps you could point out exactly what we have lost!
> 
> Did the Animal Welfare Act prohibit reptile keeping – no
> Did the review of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act go against us – no
> ...


 
Chris, I am not suggesting that you haven't achieved anything, far from it. You know full well I support the work that you do and was happy & pleased to attend the various meetings you organised (pet fairs, rspca etc).

My point is that we need to do more and I know that you have not got the time to do anything else, that's NOT a criticism it's a fact. 

My criticism is that you / FBH does not seem to be doing anything to help in terms of what is missing. I'm sure there are MANY people capable of keeping the FBH up to date and fresh, and would do it FREE! I'm happy to host it FREE. 

There's such a vast untapped resource in our herp community that in my mind is wasted by the apparent unwillingness to bring in more help.


----------



## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

peterf said:


> So don't for one minute believe that the facts will guide the legislation!


Sadly that is so true in almost ALL of the knee jerk reactive legislation that has been passed (banning hand guns was another classic, just look how much safer we all are now all those law abiding, registered owners have handed in their guns! I know I for one feel far safer knowing ONLY the criminals people continue to keep guns)


----------



## Myo (Feb 14, 2008)

royalpython said:


> You mention the pro-keepers have less funds compared to the anti's, yet there's very little advertising.


 
Well if there is less money there is obviously gonna be less advertising!! Adverts cost money and the reason the RSPCA come up near the top of the list if you type in animal care on google is because they pay to be there!!


----------



## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

yeah that's what i was getting at Myo. I PM'd Chris with some information about optimizing in google. I was half thinking about contributing towards making sure the website was optimized and on the front page, so i hope you're not having a dig at me


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

royalpython said:


> yeah that's what i was getting at Myo. I PM'd Chris with some information about optimizing in google. I was half thinking about contributing towards making sure the website was optimized and on the front page, so i hope you're not having a dig at me


I usually sign all my emails to the various groups (FBH/FOCAS/REPTA) as ‘depressed of Southampton’ - that’s on a good day! The problem is, for me, I only ever see the bad news, very rarely anything good. If you reside in a morose world, you tend to have a rather pessimistic outlook! That is why these days I rarely post or start new threads as people are fed up with hearing bad news all the time. 

Reptile keeping and trade has been under immense pressure for the passed ten, fifteen years. We have very powerful and wealthy opponents who are opposed to what we do. When I posted those items about (above), for which some success had been achieved it makes you think, “well actually we haven’t done to bad a job”. Perhaps we should publicise more the ‘good news’ – two problems, one: I hate doing that as it sounds naff and all you want is a pat on the back. Two: by the time you are in a position to make it public (months after you actually know what is happening), some other price of cr*p has landed on your desk and you have forgotten about it! 

Ok, well if you want some positive news, I hesitate to say good, then those who keep DWAA animals should be happy quite shortly. We are about to (June) start a deregulatory review of the primary legislation, i.e. it should be cheaper and easier for people to get and comply with the Act. Other than that, the news is not positive.

Regards,
Depressed of Southampton


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

peterf said:


> A Year ago I was asked to participate in a study of the amphibians we both kept and shipped from our Indonesian farm.
> I met Dr Kate Smith and Dr Pete Daszak (and old brit reptile keeper whose name you may recognise, who now heads up a big conservation organisiation in New York) at our farm in Indo.
> This was a risk, but I knew Pete was honest and would use the data found honestly and appropriately.
> Thy were unable to identify the fungus in any of the thousands of amphibians we kept there.
> ...


Peter has raised a very valid point, the prohibition on the wild bird trade into the UK was not a decision biased on science, it was purely a political decision. The instigator of this ban was the UK. The same mechanism used to ban the importation of wild birds, SANCO, is now being considered for implementing a ban on the importation of wild reptiles and amphibians into the EU.


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Scott W said:


> Chris, I am not suggesting that you haven't achieved anything, far from it. You know full well I support the work that you do and was happy & pleased to attend the various meetings you organised (pet fairs, rspca etc).
> 
> My point is that we need to do more and I know that you have not got the time to do anything else, that's NOT a criticism it's a fact.
> 
> ...


Point taken Scott. 

I would be more than happy to receive any offers of help, if anyone is interested in helping and thinks they have some skills they can offer then I would love to hear from you.


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Myo said:


> Well if there is less money there is obviously gonna be less advertising!! Adverts cost money and the reason the RSPCA come up near the top of the list if you type in animal care on google is because they pay to be there!!


Actually, being the second link in the *natural* listings has nothing to do with paying for advertising. You get there by having a well-optimised site that uses headers and general readability functions correctly, that is linked to by enough people to make it a "valid resource".

Chris, I offered some time ago to help with the FBH site, but ran into a number of problems based on the lack of knowledge of how the site works (and whether there's even a "back office" administration area for it, or if it's just plain HTML) and who had access to the site for editing. Unfortunately all of my details are stored on my old PC at the moment.

I'm still willing to help.


----------

