# Draft Code of Ethics - Consultation



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

*Can we ask that you take a few minutes to read through the working document below. *​ 
*In light of recent uncertainty amongst reptile keepers and a healthy, emotive debate on this forum a few of us have taken a positive out of this and believe there is merit in producing a code of ethics that breeders/buyers could agree to.*​
*This is a working document, so it can be edited, added to and developed further. W**e would therefore welcome candid and sensible suggestions and comments*



*Reptilia Amphibian and Invert Breeders Association (UK)*
(Working Title)

Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to:

the idea of adopting a voluntary best practice guide
what such a guide should cover
From initial discussions/correspondence with breeders from both the UK and the US and more general opinion expressed through a number of public forum there is a perceived desire/need to have in place an ethical code to reassure the hobby of the health and well being of animals being produced and sold.

There are also concerns that new cultivars that are not properly tested before being released into the hobby, could and do, in a number of instances, have genetic issues that can affect behaviour, fertility and a number of other symptoms that may be deleterious.

In an ideal world a full system of registration of litters/clutches etc would be in place and available to breeders as would a register of available animals to the public. Such systems are in place for other Taxa for example through the Kennel Club.

However, in the example of the Kennel Club it has been in existence since 1873 – clearly they have had plenty of time to refine their system! Furthermore there are a number of practical implementation issues that need proper consideration before this can be put in place in a proper, detailed and consensual manner.

Through the discussions mentioned above a suggestion has been put forward as a *first step* in working towards the creation of a ‘Kennel Club equivalent’ that would provide the initial comfort to the hobby and the public concerning the quality of animals being sold, their care and propagation.

The current thinking is that such a ‘first step’ would manifest itself in the form of a voluntary association. This association would not require fees to be paid for membership – the only requirement of membership being a written commitment to follow the best practice/ethics code of the association. No formal constitution is being proposed but that it should be administered in the first instance by the membership.

It is further thought that such a ‘code’ should be basic in the sense of being clear, easily understood and not ‘steeped’ in bureaucracy.

In the first instance, it is felt that the Association should adopt the following:

Founding Principles
General Code of Ethics
This would allow a test period (suggestions as to length of period are welcome!) to determine how many breeders ‘sign-up’ to these principles and ultimately inform the association of the need/desire to expand its mandate.

Suggestions for a ‘second stage’ have included the following:

Accredited Breeders
Offspring Registration
Sales Register
This could potentially be a very interesting and exciting time for all of those in the hobby. We have the opportunity to ‘authenticate’ what we do, promote a wider understanding of what many perceive to be ‘creepy crawlies’ and to educate the wider community and help conservation.

This can be an extremely positive move that allows hobbyists to determine how such animals could be kept before arguably being legislated against by bureaucrats with no first hand experience or detailed knowledge.

It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions.

Outlined below are the proposed Founding Principles and Best Practice Guide referred to above.
*Founding Principles*
1. to promote responsible reptilia, amphibian and invert ownership
2. to enhance our understanding and relationship with our pets
3. to create a voluntary medium for keepers and breeders of all reptilia, amphibians and inverts to exchange information
4. to provide a best practice guide for the captive husbandry and breeding of these species
5. to provide a means for prospective and existing owners of these species to identify breeders who adopt the best practice guide
6. to provide objective information on species and cultivar specific issues including any empirical or scientific research that is being undertaken and to publish any findings
*CODE of Best Practice*
*Husbandry*

Owners will keep all species covered under the Founding Principles in conditions appropriate to the species in terms of housing, environment, dietary and hygiene needs
Owners will use appropriate quarantine procedures when dealing with new animals or sick animals (either medically diagnosed or suspected sick animals prior to diagnosis)
Owners agree not to breed from a female in any way which is detrimental to the female or cultivar. 
*Sale** of Animals*

Owners agree only to sell animals where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life
Owners will offer help to re-home an animal if the initial circumstances change. 
Owners will supply Care Sheets for each species of animal sold to include, as a minimum, housing, heating and dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing animals in a new home.
Owners will provide any paperwork required by statute to the new owner. The owner will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available.
For captive bred animals, owners will provide details confirming that the animal being sold is produced from legally obtained parents and provide its parents’ details
Non captive bred animals should be stated as such and identified as being either wild caught or long term captive with details of where purchased and of any other history that the owner is aware
Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of an animal nor falsely advertise or mislead any person regarding the quality of an animal 
This code advocates providing as much other information as the owner considers necessary pertaining to the history of any animal being sold, for example (but not restricted to), its date of birth, feeding, shedding and weight records or ancestry
This code advocates that all owners adopt a returns policy and make such a policy available to buyers
Thank you for taking the time to read this post


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## katelikesfun (Sep 19, 2007)

What I have read sounds brilliant! I'm still trying to get my head around it all though and how this can be monitored or whether its not suppposed to be seeing as its 'ethics'. Thanks for sharing Nick my hat goes off to ya : victory:


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

I refuse to follow other peoples Morals and Ethics even if they are in line with my own. I will only follow my own.......


However i will say that its very well set out and i agree with most items on there.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Ok ive read it and i dont agree

1, who is going to tell me how to quarentine?
2, who is going to tell me what habitat i need
3, do you expect invert people to agree with that because i know a fair few who wont.
4, no payment~ who will pay for the webspace? the admin?
5, do you all declare your earnings to the tax man?

As for the other societies 
they cant even agree on a code of practice with the rspca it has been said many times they will not unite. They can not condone anything like this with out being seen as one sided. 
They have no weight were the rspca are concerned.

You have already said no to a committee which is absurd
it will not be democratically run at all and how can anyone tell someone how to keep a species if they have no knowledge of it
What makes one keeper better than another?

How can someone advise me how to keep a certain species if they have never kept it them selfs?


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

My first thoughts are that the scope is to large.

I will comment further when I've read and digested it !


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

I lol'ed thats all I can say Aim High lol


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> I refuse to follow other peoples Morals and Ethics even if they are in line with my own. I will only follow my own.......
> 
> 
> However i will say that its very well set out and i agree with most items on there.


Thanks Lucifus - we understand your position. The whole point is that it is not meant to be other peoples morals - this is an attempt to produce something that we all do any way - it just brings it together to be transparent to the outside world - if we dont self regulate then someone else may do eventually.

As the top of the thread suggests it is open to much amendment and is a 'starter for ten' so to speak


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to:
> the idea of adopting a voluntary best practice guide
> what such a guide should cover
> (who made this decision, who came up with this?)
> ...


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Faith said:


> Ok ive read it and i dont agree
> 
> 1, who is going to tell me how to quarentine?
> 2, who is going to tell me what habitat i need
> ...


Nowhere does it suggest how you should do anything I suggest you read it properly and digest it before making a knee-jerk reaction.

It is a general code of ethics - it leaves the details up to the breeder. It is very similar to the ethics found in organisations such as the Kennel Club which I understand you are fully aware of.

This is about trying to do something for the greater good of the overall hobby which I would hope we all want to achieve.

If you do not want this to happen - just say so and let others make a meaningful contribution.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

I find that the herpology in general is well.....divided. I don't think anything like this will take off, i personally wont be signing anything or agree with any sort of body. Even our basic ethics are different and we wont be able to get everyone or most people to agree on one thing.


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Nowhere does it suggest how you should do anything I suggest you read it properly and digest it before making a knee-jerk reaction.
> 
> It is a general code of ethics - it leaves the details up to the breeder. It is very similar to the ethics found in organisations such as the Kennel Club which I understand you are fully aware of.
> 
> ...


they are meaningfull nick
im sorry but i dont agree with what it says!
its my opinion

FAITH not Diablo didnt sign him out lol


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> I find that the herpology in general is well.....divided. I don't think anything like this will take off, i personally wont be signing anything or agree with any sort of body. Even our basic ethics are different and we wont be able to get everyone or most people to agree on one thing.


I agree with you and it is a shame really - breeders of other animals have done this (KC for example).

It seems that opinions are rife as detailed in other threads yet when push comes to shove - only a few are willing to try and do something positive and put their money where their mouth is.

Breeders of any animal will have differences of opinion on specifics of how to house or quarantine (for example) their animals but the fact that we do it and do it properly and adequately whatever method we use is all that matters. This is all the proposed code seeks to achieve.

I am always willing to take advice as we continue learning. However, I too would be reluctant to submit to an imposed set of specific criteria on how to keep my pets but am more than happy to agree to what amounts to a set of guidelines regarding basic husbandry.

I find it a sad reflection on the hobby that there is not a will to do this. As always is the case, the dissenters shout louder than the rest - what is their agenda? Let's just hand ourselves over to the suits in Whitehall to decide how we should do it - then where will we be???

Why we cannot have a basic ethics code that breeders adhere to on a voluntary basis to provide buyers with the comfort that the breeders act with care and integrity beats me. 

Regardless of the outcome of all this we will adopt a code of ethics and advertise the fact - I think it is good practice.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> nicklamb said:
> 
> 
> > Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to:
> ...


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Regardless of the outcome of all this we will adopt a code of ethics and advertise the fact - I think it is good practice.


Dont get me wrong its not that i dislike the idea, its just personally i don't like animal organisations including KC. However what i do dislike is some "group" or organisation telling others how they should keep there animals. Especially when this group will be a minority. Furthermore these guidelines are things we should be doing anyway.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> Dont get me wrong its not that i dislike the idea, its just personally i don't like animal organisations including KC. However what i do dislike is some "group" or organisation telling others how they should keep there animals. Especially when this group will be a minority. Furthermore these guidelines are things we should be doing anyway.


Again It is difficult to disagree with you and I qoute from the original post 

_"It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions"_

I believe it should also have added on the end "and their input sought."


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## Surly (Aug 20, 2007)

At the moment, I'm not sure. I think that as long as it was democratically made, it isn't a bad idea.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Surly said:


> At the moment, I'm not sure. I think that as long as it was democratically made, it isn't a bad idea.


Hi Surly and many thanks for your input.

Again a very valid point - it definitely needs to be democratic - To be democratic it needs membership, to have membership one needs an entity to be a member of. For committee's to exist, members in sufficient numbers are required to elect that committee and only once a committee has been formed can a chairperson be elected. Not a quick procees when starting from scratch!! Hence the suggestion to undertake the process in the way described in the original post.

I also feel it needs to be representative hence this consultation. I will be seeking input and opinion from the bodies mentioned in the original post and indeed am compiling a list of as many breeders as possible to also seek their opinions - many of whom are not on this forum.


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## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

I dont think many will agree, plus i think with this in place it is away for the tax man to jump on your back and claim his bit for the extra wonga you are earning.
HMMM


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

OK, I have had a good read, been bombarded with pm and emails and MSN !

I am aware that for whatever reason, my involvement is seen as laughable by some people, thats fine, everyone is permitted their own views.

Heres mine !




nicklamb said:


> *Can we ask that you take a few minutes to read through the working document below. *​
> 
> 
> *In light of recent uncertainty amongst reptile keepers and a healthy, emotive debate on this forum a few of us have taken a positive out of this and believe there is merit in producing a code of ethics that breeders/buyers could agree to.*​
> ...


So, my thoughts, not to be seen as an attack, but my own thoughts, for what its worth.

I belive it would be better to restrict the species involved in order to get it up and running. Once its working for one or two species, it can be enlarged.

I do belive that a group of people are needed to get this going, I understand that at this stage a committee is not possible, but once the thoughts of those interested are collected, a small group needs to put it together. Mass involvement will only lead to it failing I belive.

Once initial codes etc are in place, people can join, committee formed if needed, amendments and tweaks made.

At this stage I really dont think getting bogged down in best practice is the right way to go, its always an emotive subject. I feel it would be much better to focus on the reasons for all this and get that sorted first, then there will be a firm platform to enhance.


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> OK, I have had a good read, been bombarded with pm and emails and MSN !
> 
> I am aware that for whatever reason, my involvement is seen as laughable by some people, thats fine, everyone is permitted their own views.
> 
> ...


HERE HERE 
sorted


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks for your time in reading the doc carefully Tony 

It come across to me that some people did not read this carefully and were quick to bitch about what was said ;(

This doc was only a starting point and open for everyone input NOT insults mainly on MSN 

I hope we can pull together as this is all about Our reptile and purchaser best interest at heart


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

and what about the FBH? 

I was under the impression that this was basically what they wanted to acheive?


Whatever the answers to the above are, I strongly believe that we need a united organisation that is able to have a voice and some 'clought' behind them. An organisation that can promote the hobby, defend it against attack and bring in to line 'wayward' dealers / shops.

I believe the organisation shouldn't be 'owned' by anyone and that all decision makers are there by vote.

NickLamb, please can you post your original post on the CaptiveBred forum as I'm sure there will be some good input


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Scott W said:


> and what about the FBH?
> 
> I was under the impression that this was basically what they wanted to acheive?
> 
> ...


Hi Scott

I think all and sundry have looked at some kind of idea like this, but as yet have had no real success. Heres hoping we get some support now and this moves on in whatever form it takes in the end.

Where this may have a chance is that WE (meaning the collective herp keeper) are looking at it, not being told by anyone.

Your comment about the decision makers is, IMHO, spot on.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> OK, I have had a good read, been bombarded with pm and emails and MSN !
> 
> I am aware that for whatever reason, my involvement is seen as laughable by some people, thats fine, everyone is permitted their own views.
> 
> ...


Tony, many thanks for taking the time to read it thoroughly and provide a considered, meaningful and insightful response - exactly what the post was designed to do!! I for one certainly value your input:notworthy:

Taking the points in turn:

_"__*Reptilia Amphibian and Invert Breeders Association (UK)*_
_(Working Title) I belive this is to wider scope with which to begin this mamoth task, see my comments below."_
_I wouldn't necessarilly disagree with this sentiment - I think however, that whilst this might be the ultimate conclusion - wider representation needs to be sought before a decision is made on exactly what it will encompass - after all as members of RFUK we only represent a minority of the UK hobby._

_"*Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to:*

*the idea of adopting a voluntary best practice guide *
*what such a guide should cover *
*Best practice in regards to what? keeping the animals, selling them, reporting etc. I still belive a code of conduct is better suited at this stage"*_
_Indeed! it's title perhaps in view of comments read so far should be altered if people are more comfortable with that. The proposal has deliberately tried to steer clear of being too specific as explained in an earlier reply to this thread - there are bodies such as the Pro-Keepers who are working hard on our behalf to influence detailed codes - this is *in the first instance *only meant to unite us under a basic form of practice to give buyers of our animals a place to find breeders who they can feel confident that the animals are properly cared for - I think more detail than that at this stage could stall its inaugeration some time. If as I have said before there is enough take-up then that would be the time to consider such issues - this proposal is really advocating that breeders observe certain practices but is not yet being prescriptive about the how as i think we could be here a very long time agreeing!!_

_"Suggestions for a ‘second stage’ have included the following:

Accredited Breeders 
Offspring Registration 
Sales Register (Not to sure if this is needed, but I do understand the need to be flexable within a register in order to keep it uptodate.) "
Me neither to be honest but it was a suggestion put forward and therefore included for wider debate._

_"It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions.
Good idea, not so sure what the response would be from some quarters !"_

_I'm not sure what the response would be either but I think it would be irresponsible not to consult them and seek their views._

_"*Founding Principles*
1.to promote responsible reptilia, amphibian and invert ownership (There would need to be a way of defining responsible before the group could promote it) - Agreed
2.to enhance our understanding and relationship with our pets
3.to create a voluntary medium for keepers and breeders of all reptilia, amphibians and inverts to exchange information (Dont we have that already in the form of forums, or are we talking about data pertaining to breeding?) yes I think we do but this is not the only forum and it could be viewed as an attempt to bring more people under one umbrella
4.to provide a best practice guide for the captive husbandry and breeding of these species (Huge problem here, how can that be achieved when its not agreed upon about simple things like substrates. Also knowledgeable keepers would be needed for all species, a mamoth task to say the least)" Agreed, it would probably be an impossible task! as I am sure the legislators will find out!! However as an objective (rather than an 'instruction' as I can see the point reads!) it has merit - it would maybe help give us a seat at the table if and when any potential supplementary legislation is being prepared???



_"

Owners will keep all species covered under the Founding Principles in conditions appropriate to the species in terms of housing, environment, dietary and hygiene needs 
I understand that at this stage, it is not being suggested that these 'conditions' be laid down, but how and who are we to say if someone is not complying, what benchmarks can be used?"
_Not an easy one admittedly. Again however, we know how to keep what we do, this is just advising the public that we do and will - no doubt the quality of our animals are testament to that!_

_"

Owners will use appropriate quarantine procedures when dealing with new animals or sick animals (either medically diagnosed or suspected sick animals prior to diagnosis)
Again , in order to confirm what is appropriate, there will need to be a guide"_

_I think with this point and the one below it is a case of advising the public that we do have in place such practices - the KC's 'ethics' code for example is non-specific - this is not trying to achieve any more than that at this time. It is for the individual Breeders on all these points to determine how they implement such things - as we've said before there are several 'correct' ways to do things._


"

Owners agree not to breed from a female in any way which is detrimental to the female or cultivar. 
I would change this to be 'breed any animal'"
_Personally, I would agree with you_

_"_Owners will supply Care Sheets for each species of animal sold to include, as a minimum, housing, heating and dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing animals in a new home. I am aware that we all do this already, but would it be expected to be a standard care sheet, or those we use already?"
_Again, my personal view is that we continue using the information we already provide - they detail our experience of what works for us so again it is breeder discretion - the message is just being put out there that we will provide such information._

_"_
_Owners will provide any paperwork required by statute to the new owner. The owner will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available. _
_What kind of documents?"_
_I put this one in! Only because I am aware that some species require licences etc - it would need someone fully aware of all the statutes to qualify this!! (know anyone??)_

_"

This code advocates that all owners adopt a returns policy and make such a policy available to buyers 
An individual policy or a group poilicy? Again , in broad agreement, but needs to be clarified"
I think the details of a returns policy should be what each breeder is prepared to do - I would not personally like to dictate anothers terms of operation!!

Thanks again Tony for your thoughts - advancing this debate is what it's all about._


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## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

Some of the points we are going to put down may have already been said, but we'll put them anyway to try and keep our opinions and thoughts clear:




nicklamb said:


> *Reptilia Amphibian and Invert Breeders Association (UK)*
> (Working Title)
> We think think this is far too ambitious, we were under the impression that this came about as a result of doubts with the Enigma, and the document was aimed towards Leopard geckos. Although a great thing to aim for we feel it would be better to cencentrate on one area and see if it can be successful before expanding to other areas of herpetoculture.
> Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to:
> ...


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Scott W said:


> I strongly believe that we need a united organisation that is able to have a voice and some 'clought' behind them. An organisation that can promote the hobby, defend it against attack and bring in to line 'wayward' dealers / shops.


I agree with that 100%. I think the 'hobby' is so divided that there is no way to effectively defend it against criticism from organisations such as the RSPCA. If there is no united front there cannot be a voice as such.

But I'll admit I have no idea how something like this would be set up and how basic things would be agreed on. Will be interesting to see peoples take on it. It would be something that I would support as this way seems more positive and constructive than the 'bashing of the anti's' that other groups sometimes imply....

: victory:


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## bob_l (Apr 14, 2007)

I get that its important to defend the hobby and support it but what i don't understand is what good a membership will do the community in general. Sorry if I missed anything, but what you are currently suggesting is a system where people will give you money in order to receive orders in how to treat their animals. In my experience of starting in the hobby from scratch, the most helpful thing to use was this site, the shared experience of all of its members allowed me to make my own decisions logically without a membership or a set of rules.

As for breeders, i dont get what the motive is for them to participate. What is there for them to gain from this that they cant get for free? 

It seems that you probably wont get anywhere going the way your going.

I may have interpereted your post wrong but thats what it looks like from my point of view.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Its a good idea in thory, but I dont think its something that will work, as said before, who will take care of the webspace admin and other costs....

And I feel that it will end up with some breeders using it as an excuse to inflate prices


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

A strong membership with high numbers will show that there are a good number of people willing to be counted. This is vital to demostrate that the hobby is BIG and has a loud voice if needed.


I'm sure a membership of some kind could be created that could be FREE to hobbyists, with a small fee to shops and a 'tax' on wholesale equipment / foods.

I've no idea who or what name this organisation would take but something needs to be done but I fear that there are too many egos in the way for something like this to ever take shape. Too many grudges and jealousy between keepers etc.

I really believe that IF we could get a united body that was supported by the wholesale traders (of which there is really only 5 main ones), then a lot of good could be done. Bad shops could be investigated by an independant panel of experianced reptile keepers that are nominated and voted in place. Codes of 'best' practice for shops could then be the basis for inspections. Failing to take on board recommendations by this panel would resort in the shop being 'black listed' by the wholesalers.

This would be the fasted way of putting the shop out of business or improving it.

The only downside is that I can see 2 out of the 5 with NO interest in improving the hobby and believe they are only interested in the short term (i.e. money in their accounts) so unless all 5 agree it just wouldn't work.

As for codes of practice for hobbyists, this is near on impossible and can not be policed anyway. I think the way forward is ensuring shops are up to the right standards and are able to provide the correct information at the time of sale.

People mention breeders...who do you mean??? You do know that there are probably less than than 5 professional breeders in the UK (i.e. those that earn their living from breeding reptiles).


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Personally i think this is a good idea. With the governement and rspca breathing down the next of reptile and exotic keepers. if we can get a organisation to which a majority of keepers, breaders and importers agree it will give us more of a voice. Even if people dont agree with everything it is still somthing to push for.

I think those that deny it at this stage really cant see what will be coming in the future with regard to animal keeping in the UK. 

Althought i can see the teathing problems then general idea i good. It might be woth, as much as people dont always ager with, talking to TSKA. They may be able to help assist in some way. 

Jay


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

HI all,

The problem with forums is all the back stabbing and petty squabbles and people saying things about other people with out fact.

I know six people that keep reptiles I am the only one that uses the forum the rest keep away and at times I cannot blame them??.

There are some good points and bad points but as someone as already said I don't need someone telling me what to do.

Let societys keep their individuallity but unite as one big front and speak with each other draw up a battle plan and put it to the forum.

One other question is this will take a lot of work and time why would someone want to do it for nothing, is there an ulterier motive.


I think the people on forums are a minority, it's the herpers in the wider community that we need to involve.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I am a little confused by the overall starting point for this Code Nick.

Is this to start of species by species and gradually build up over a set amount of time or to begin as a whopping huge database with several areas being covered?

I genuinely feel that this would be best placed species specific until the idea is fully established - it could be started as soon as possible with 1 or 2 main species and worked upon from there.

I cannot personally draw reference to the KC as they are a long standing governing body who have fought thier own battles already and whilst the general focal points of their COE's and the aims of this particular code may appear similar I don't feel that they are. The reptile area holds many specific care ideals that differ so far from one another and I don't feel that a system such as KC is comparable except for the registering and databasing of recognised, responsible breeders who have good backgrounds and bloodlines to list. I also feel that nowadays, the KC is more about bloodlines and showing than anything else.

It is a great idea in theory and I take my hat off to those already working on it - it is a mammoth task to create a database of 1 species so if this is planned to launch with moe than 1 or 2 common species then there is certainly a lot of hard work to be done ahead.

I shall read through the finer points of the propsed code when my children are sleeping and I have a little more time with my brain fully focussed on 1 area.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Diablo said:


> HERE HERE
> sorted


 

This is a CONSULTATION document. A consultation needs to include as many stakeholders (i.e. any person, organisation or other person(s) that has an interest in the hobby - whatever their views) and this can take time as people need to consider their position properly and make an appropriate response.

Ultimately, what comes out of all this may be quite different from the ideas being expressed in the original post. I think Tony has pointed out an extremely important difference between what is now being attempted over similar previous attempts - it is WE, (the herping community) who are trying to unite for the greater good of the hobby whereas before it has been external organisations attempting to 'impose'.

It is therefore, far from "sorted" unless that is, you are advocating rushing to form an ill conceived, poorly constructed and poorly represented body that has no consensual mandate with which to speak for the hobby - which I am sure you are not.

Let's all view this as an opportunity.


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> This is a CONSULTATION document. A consultation needs to include as many stakeholders (i.e. any person, organisation or other person(s) that has an interest in the hobby - whatever their views) and this can take time as people need to consider their position properly and make an appropriate response.
> 
> Ultimately, what comes out of all this may be quite different from the ideas being expressed in the original post. I think Tony has pointed out an extremely important difference between what is now being attempted over similar previous attempts - it is WE, (the herping community) who are trying to unite for the greater good of the hobby whereas before it has been external organisations attempting to 'impose'.
> 
> ...


Nick really you need to look at what you are saying before hitting the button. 
I shouldnt need to explain that "sorted" is an expression. As far as im aware we are allowed to express our thoughts on the forum as long as the posts are in line with the T&C's of this site.

As for the opportunity that you seem to be offering there are already CoP 's on many sites including the FBH and the IHS. As far as im aware there are also CoP's being worked on by PLK. 
Ive read a re read this post over and over ive also read and re read the CoP's on the above sites. 
If people took the time to look at them they are very good guidelines to follow. In fact im sure many of us do follow them with out even being aware of it. 

To also point out that as Brit has said you keep commenting on the KC (which im fully aware of) and i know that only roughly 2% of breeders that register with them have signed up to their ABS. 
You may ask why and i can tell you from experience with "dog breeders" that the reason they dont sign up is because they feel no need. 

By the way Brit you are correct in thinking that the KC have now focused more on blood lines and parentage of dogs rather than ethics.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

RedGex said:


> Some of the points we are going to put down may have already been said, but we'll put them anyway to try and keep our opinions and thoughts clear:


Many thanks for your views, very much appreciated.

*Reptilia Amphibian and Invert Breeders Association (UK)
*(Working Title)
We think think this is far too ambitious, we were under the impression that this came about as a result of doubts with the Enigma, and the document was aimed towards Leopard geckos. Although a great thing to aim for we feel it would be better to cencentrate on one area and see if it can be successful before expanding to other areas of herpetoculture.
_It did indeed come out of those dicussions. It has however, highlighted a wider issue and it seemed to some an opportunity not to be wasted (if something good is going to be done, why not find out who is interested as it could be less work in the long run - if the questions are not asked then we won't find out). _


Please consider this as a ‘working document’. It has been produced in order to elicit opinion from breeders and keepers to: 

the idea of adopting a voluntary best practice guide
what such a guide should cover
From initial discussions/correspondence with breeders from both the UK and the US and more general opinion expressed through a number of public forum there is a perceived desire/need to have in place an ethical code to reassure the hobby of the health and well being of animals being produced and sold.

There are also concerns that new cultivars that are not properly tested before being released into the hobby, could and do, in a number of instances, have genetic issues that can affect behaviour, fertility and a number of other symptoms that may be deleterious.
How is a new cultivar/morph defined, does it include combinations of previous morphs, and who decides if and when it should be released? 

Reading ahead, "Owners agree not to breed from a female in any way which is detrimental to the female or cultivar." Would this include testing new cultivars?? 

In an ideal world a full system of registration of litters/clutches etc would be in place and available to breeders as would a register of available animals to the public. Such systems are in place for other Taxa for example through the Kennel Club.

I think this aspect is unrealistic; following the example above, by no means every dog is registered with the KC, and to try and register every Leo, let alone every reptile, amphibian etc would be a massive undertaking, and I believe there will always be people who do not register.

However, in the example of the Kennel Club it has been in existence since 1873 – clearly they have had plenty of time to refine their system! Furthermore there are a number of practical implementation issues that need proper consideration before this can be put in place in a proper, detailed and consensual manner.

Through the discussions mentioned above a suggestion has been put forward as a *first step* in working towards the creation of a ‘Kennel Club equivalent’ that would provide the initial comfort to the hobby and the public concerning the quality of animals being sold, their care and propagation.

The current thinking is that such a ‘first step’ would manifest itself in the form of a voluntary association. This association would not require fees to be paid for membership – the only requirement of membership being a written commitment to follow the best practice/ethics code of the association. No formal constitution is being proposed but that it should be administered in the first instance by the membership.

I would be happy to give a written commitment to follow a Best Ethics Code, providing I was allowed the freedom to care for the animals in my care as I believe is in their best interests and is suitable for each individual animal, rather than have to follow set guidelines. I understand this is the aim, but would be concerned about how the guidelines for husbandry would be defined. As has been mentioned, different things work for different people and people learn by different experiences.

It is further thought that such a ‘code’ should be basic in 
the sense of being clear, easily understood and not ‘steeped’ in bureaucracy.
_Everything above was written as an introduction if you like ,to give some background to the reader - many valid points to take on board though - thanks_
In the first instance, it is felt that the Association should adopt the following: 

Founding Principles
General Code of Ethics
This would allow a test period (suggestions as to length of period are welcome!) to determine how many breeders ‘sign-up’ to these principles and ultimately inform the association of the need/desire to expand its mandate.

I would suggest a minimum of 2 possibly 3 breeding seasons as a test period. This would allow time to see how many established breeders sign up, and also how many new breeders sign up.
_cool - first suggestion on timing thanks! _

Suggestions for a ‘second stage’ have included the following: 

Accredited Breeders
Offspring Registration
Sales Register
As we said above, we feel it is unlikey that a full register will be achieved. I think full hatch certificates for all young sold, swapped, or 'given', as most people provide and we intend to, are a realistic aim. This would give details of the breeder, and possibly each owner as it changes hands. This would mean that if any problems arose with the animal later in life that may indicate a problem with the line, the breeder can be made aware, and subsequent owners of the animal could be traced if necessary to get any additional information.
I also feel that if it is considered 'the done thing' to add your details to a certificate, it may deter people from impulse buys etc.

The full sales register my be successful in certain circumstances, for example with the Enigma. It seems to have been agreed that collaboration is required in this case, and it would allow all offspring to be followed and any surfacing problems to be relayed back to the breeder. It would also ensure that any 'not-Enigma-looking' offspring were also kept track of. 
If it worked in an instance such as this, it may then be possible to expand it to other areas.
_Similar concerns have been expressed, hence it is being suggested that these issues form part of the second stage when it will be possible to consider in detail exactly what more to include (if anything)_

This could potentially be a very interesting and exciting time for all of those in the hobby. We have the opportunity to ‘authenticate’ what we do, promote a wider understanding of what many perceive to be ‘creepy crawlies’ and to educate the wider community and help conservation.

This can be an extremely positive move that allows hobbyists to determine how such animals could be kept before arguably being legislated against by bureaucrats with no first hand experience or detailed knowledge.

It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions.

Outlined below are the proposed Founding Principles and Best Practice Guide referred to above.
*Founding Principles*
1. to promote responsible reptilia, amphibian and invert ownership
2. to enhance our understanding and relationship with our pets
3. to create a voluntary medium for keepers and breeders of all reptilia, amphibians and inverts to exchange information
4. to provide a best practice guide for the captive husbandry and breeding of these species
5. to provide a means for prospective and existing owners of these species to identify breeders who adopt the best practice guide
6. to provide objective information on species and cultivar specific issues including any empirical or scientific research that is being undertaken and to publish any findings
*CODE of Best Practice*
*Husbandry* 

Owners will keep all species covered under the Founding Principles in conditions appropriate to the species in terms of housing, environment, dietary and hygiene needs
Owners will use appropriate quarantine procedures when dealing with new animals or sick animals (either medically diagnosed or suspected sick animals prior to diagnosis)
Again this is not something I would like decided for me, in my opinion different situations require different procedures, but agree it should be a point covered in the Code of Best Practice/Ethics. 
_looking critically at the original post - it does not properly explain the intention behind the Code. It is meant to outline practices that are advertised as being in place with each of the breeders under the code. The implementation and detail of such practices are entirely at the breeders discretion._

Owners agree not to breed from a female in any way which is detrimental to the female or cultivar. 
We agree it should be 
Owners agree not to breed from any animal in any way which is detrimental to the animal or cultivar.
But as said above, where does this stand with regards to test breeding, who decides if something is detrimental if there is difference of opinion?
_an extremely valid thought regarding the test breeding issue - be good to see more opinion/suggestions on this._

*Sale** of Animals* 

Owners agree only to sell animals where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life
Owners will offer help to re-home an animal if the initial circumstances change. 
Owners will supply Care Sheets for each species of animal sold to include, as a minimum, housing, heating and dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing animals in a new home.
Owners will provide any paperwork required by statute to the new owner. The owner will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available.
For captive bred animals, owners will provide details confirming that the animal being sold is produced from legally obtained parents and provide its parents’ details
Non captive bred animals should be stated as such and identified as being either wild caught or long term captive with details of where purchased and of any other history that the owner is aware
Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of an animal nor falsely advertise or mislead any person regarding the quality of an animal 
This code advocates providing as much other information as the owner considers necessary pertaining to the history of any animal being sold, for example (but not restricted to), its date of birth, feeding, shedding and weight records or ancestry
This code advocates that all owners adopt a returns policy and make such a policy available to buyers
We agree with these last points, however individual breeders should define their own re-homing/returns policy as this is something that is open to abuse. 
_As above, it is intended that these points merely outline to the buyer those practices breeders have agreed to undertake. How these practices are undertaken is at the breeders discretion._

Thank you for taking the time to read this post
Thankyou for taking the time to write this post - some very interesting points have been raised and I think it has made a good starting point


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

Nice idea
Some people suggested starting with a couple of species and working out. That would work better than taking on everything.
Inverts shouldn't be included. The law treats inverts very differently from vertebrates. A parallel code of ethics for inverts would be appropriate though.
Without the input and backing from the herp associations it'll be dead in the water.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Just a note to let everyone know that this post is also up on the following forum:

Reptile Keeper
Reptilitious
Captive Bred
Reptiles in General

Many thanks to the owners/moderators who requested this. I'm sure there are more so let me know


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> There are also concerns that new cultivars that are not properly tested before being released into the hobby, could and do, in a number of instances, have genetic issues that can affect behaviour, fertility and a number of other symptoms that may be deleterious.


With the never ending morph market for some species, how would we go about implementing this ? What would be the criteria for a cultivar being "properly tested" ?. I have already heard of marked concerns in some corn, other rat snake and royal morphs with regard to behavioural differences and health issues from the norm... but how would we proceed into testing these ?



> In an ideal world a full system of registration of litters/clutches etc would be in place and available to breeders as would a register of available animals to the public. Such systems are in place for other Taxa for example through the Kennel Club.




This is an excellent idea and something that I and Tanya Stevens discussed a few years ago. With such a system, it would be possible to actually trace the family tree of your animals back which would be an enormous benefit when investigating the bloodlines of animals you intend to breed.
 


> The current thinking is that such a ‘first step’ would manifest itself in the form of a voluntary association. This association would not require fees to be paid for membership – the only requirement of membership being a written commitment to follow the best practice/ethics code of the association. No formal constitution is being proposed but that it should be administered in the first instance by the membership.




Although I agree it should start off as free to get people to buy in to it, as it gets larger the administration is going to get complicated, and people would want paying for running it. As long as the cost is not prohibitive... I myself pay to belong to the FBH and the Ratsnake Foundation and some people even pay for bonus features on this forum... so I do not think a small charge to cover administration would be prohibitive to people taking part.
 


> This would allow a test period (suggestions as to length of period are welcome!) to determine how many breeders ‘sign-up’ to these principles and ultimately inform the association of the need/desire to expand its mandate.


At least 6 months...



> It is felt that in promoting such an association we are under an obligation to advertise the fact as widely as possible. To this end the IHS, FBH, other related forum’s and the Pro-Keepers Lobby will be canvassed for their opinions.



Yes... This is essential. It would also be interesting to here what DEFRA think of it.
 


> *CODE of Best Practice*
> *Husbandry*
> Owners will keep all species covered under the Founding Principles in conditions appropriate to the species in terms of housing, environment, dietary and hygiene needs


Will these not be soon enforced on all keepers through the A.W.A ?



> Owners will use appropriate quarantine procedures when dealing with new animals or sick animals (either medically diagnosed or suspected sick animals prior to diagnosis)


Essential.



> Owners agree not to breed from a female in any way which is detrimental to the female or cultivar.


Why only females ? Males pass on their genes too ?



> *Sale** of Animals*
> Owners agree only to sell animals where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life


Agreed... One would hope this is the case already.



> Owners will offer help to re-home an animal if the initial circumstances change.


A bit of a dodgy one this I feel. Is this for a set time after the sale ? or am I as a breeder responsible for the animal throughout it's life ? If an animal I sold three years ago suddenly turned up emaciated and ill on my doorstep because the owner was moving and I then became responsible for quarantining it and treating it before it could be rehomed, I would be less than happy.



> Owners will supply Care Sheets for each species of animal sold to include, as a minimum, housing, heating and dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing animals in a new home.



Yes.. And these would need to mirror or improve upon whatever the AWA CoP states for that animal.




> Owners will provide any paperwork required by statute to the new owner. The owner will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available.
> For captive bred animals, owners will provide details confirming that the animal being sold is produced from legally obtained parents and provide its parents’ details
> Non captive bred animals should be stated as such and identified as being either wild caught or long term captive with details of where purchased and of any other history that the owner is aware
> Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of an animal nor falsely advertise or mislead any person regarding the quality of an animal
> ...


All of these should be legal requirements for the sale of any animal IMHO.

Nick...

This is excellent work !!! I do however note that Internet sales are not covered ? is there any particular reason for their absence ?

Best regards,
Steve.


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## Sid.lola (Jan 10, 2008)

wonderful. good start but a lot of work left to do!


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

slither61 said:


> One other question is this will take a lot of work and time why would someone want to do it for nothing, is there an ulterier motive.


It is quite surprising how many people do things for nothing considering the grief that usually accompanies it.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi Nick, 

I have a copy of this on my desktop and am reading the comments to your thread as well as the copy on board.

In principal l think it is a good concept.

It needs working, this l know myself, as we are working on a suggested code, and that is a nightmare, but albeit primates, it is easier for keepers to agree in theory, not so much practice. Reptile keeping codes of ethics/standards/practice were always going to be harder.

I like some of this, and would like to discuss it further.

Rory Matier PKLKA


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

I think in principal this is a really good idea. Yes it needs alot of work andsuch but if we can do something like this ourselves and make it work it owuld be alot better than allowing certain government bodies tell us what we should or shouldnt be doing.
THis sort of thing is bound to take time and there is goign to be alot of debate about it and i dont see it being created in the very near future but that being said if we dont do something soon we arent going to be alble to do anything at all


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

First of all can I say a big THANK YOU to EVERYONE who has made a contribution so far. PM's, emails and posts on other forums are still coming through and I am desperately attempting to keep track and make notes on all the suggestions, views and comments.

I will try and summarise all the findings to date this weekend and post/circulate the summary (if anyone wants this by email, just let me know). I wanted to contact the various organisations too this week but that will also need to be done this weekend.

Gut feeling is that another couple of weeks should at least have given the members on the various forum time to comment and I would hope to have some feedback from the organisations too.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Its interesting to see all the different comments, and on the whole, they all seem to lean in the same direction, so at this stage, I think there should be enough agreement with some jigging to get this up and running.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

There's a lot of great principles and ideas in this thread but I certainly would NOT be comfortable with people I do not know (and therefore have no idea on their experiances with reptiles) to actually write codes of practice for any species.


COP's for reptiles will be an absolute minefield and something that if attempted to write in too much detail will cause nothing but problems and friction and will never get the full agreement of enough clubs / societies and breeders to make it count for anything other than another gloryfied caresheet.

I really think things need to go back to the basics and start off with simple principles within shops, these principles (call them COP's) would need the full support of the TRADE (i.e. wholesalers). Slowly over time they can get more in-depth but I don't EVER see how you can apply COP's to private keepers. You only have to read 5 different caresheets on the same reptile to see how variable peoples methods are.

An example for you, almost EVERY care sheet and forum post I have seen states that crested geckos should be sprayed daily. Do I do that? NO, in fact I haven't sprayed my adults in over 2 years. Would I be breaking the Crested Gecko COP? Do my geckos suffer? No, of course not, I have different methods for providing their needs but would someone without the same experiance of cresteds know this?


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

http://www.reptilekeeper.co.uk/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&p=36920 I'd really like to get this going ASAP too Tony, my concern is that without giving a wider audience at least the opportunity to express their views or at least for that audience to have been made aware of this we could be putting ourselves up for a big fall. My professional experience in political lobbying, public consultation etc has taught this (sometimes rather painful) lesson to me if nothing else!!!

It's interesting to us to see the different viewpoints that are being expressed on the various forum we have posted this on and the issues each seem to be focussing on. 

All views are good and exactly why we are going through this process. One view that is being echoed by a good number of people to date is that they do NOT want to be dictated to - neither would I to be honest!!

Adding a few extra (personal) thoughts however; in the light of SOME of the comments raised ....... the initial aim of this perhaps should be to put together a very basic set of practices that keepers/breeders can say they use (which I'm sure we all do anyway) - *NOT* be prescriptive about *HOW* they are carried out. For example a statement that would say 'I/We do have a Quarantine Policy/Refunds Policy/will only sell healthy well cared for animals etc...

Such an undertaking would need to be voluntary. All those that want to undertake these practices and *be seen to be using them* could then sign onto a website that would log their information for prospective buyers to see. 

After say 6 months, the number of keepers that had signed up could be reviewed and if there were sufficient numbers to then look to those people to determine whether to create something more formal and the scope of its mandate - something like the 'second stage' referred to in the original post. 

This would mean that no-one is signing up in the first instance to a formally constituted body - merely advertising the fact that they are interested in the idea and have made the fact known - maybe through logging into a website that would have their contact details which can be viewed by the public? 

Interpreting the general sentiments so far(and it is only my interpretation - so tell me if I've mis-read please!!) I could see this idea creating a group of people/keepers etc that are united under one umbrella such that organisations like DEFRA, IHS, FBH etc could guide the general public and the rest of us to a web reference point in order to find/locate keepers/breeders in their regions who are seen to be committed to the well being of their animals (I know we all are I hope but how does the new hobbyist know?).

Just a few more thoughts to throw into the 'pot'!! I'll put my tin hat on!!


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

People mention breeders...who do you mean??? You do know that there are probably less than than 5 professional breeders in the UK (i.e. those that earn their living from breeding reptiles).[/quote]


hmmmmm just here in my bit of South Wales theres me and another guy who are professional breeders,extrapolate across the country and that would suggest hundreds at least
regards gaz


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

gaz said:


> hmmmmm just here in my bit of South Wales theres me and another guy who are professional breeders,extrapolate across the country and that would suggest hundreds at least
> regards gaz


 
Gaz, do you really think there are over 100 people in the uk that breed reptiles 100% for their income and as such are a registered business? (I don't mean retired folk earning some extra cash from a hobby)

Perhaps I would be suprised by the total number but I still wouldn't believe it to be that much higher than my initial estimate (pm if you have any names, I'm really curious now...)


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

well if theres 2 of us here within 7 miles of each other surely there will be plenty more across the whole of the uk,could ask the inland revenue maybe?? i dont know how to access such information,but then if there are really just a few of us and the rest are not registered maybe its best left to lie
regards gaz


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