# bloated salamander



## gothicfairy (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi all, Just wondered if anyone could give me some advice on my tiger salamander. I have had him only about a week and he was very active and eating well. 
I have come home today to find him lethargic and his tummy looks very large. He refuses to eat, which is not like him at all if this past week is to go by.
He seems to move around his tank well enough with no issues but then stops and he almost looks like he has hiccups every 2-3 seconds.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what may be wrong. The other salamander is fine.

Tank contains, sphagnum moss, large pebbles (too large to swallow) and peat along with his water bowl where he can swim.

I would appreciate any info regarding this.

Kind Regards


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

If you could post a pic it may help us to help you, otherwise its almost shot in the dark!!


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

for starters take the sphagnum moss out its too acidic and see if this helps, caudates can suffer from a condition called bloatbut this will extend into the legs and neck areas. like the previous poster said can you post a picture to give us a better idea of what we are dealing with.


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## gothicfairy (Apr 27, 2012)

thank you, i really appreciate this info so far. i will get a pic of him and pop it on here. I have noticed this morning there are two small piles of mealworms in his tank. looks like he has brought them up. could he be compacted?


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

I personally wouldnt feed mealworms to a phib, unless the mealies has white freshly shed skin.
The tough outer casing is pretty indigestable so there is a good chance this could be a part of the problem.
Get a few worms in the sal and it should push it all through.


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## beaniebopps (Oct 4, 2009)

gothicfairy said:


> thank you, i really appreciate this info so far. i will get a pic of him and pop it on here. I have noticed this morning there are two small piles of mealworms in his tank. looks like he has brought them up. could he be compacted?


I don't keep salamanders so this might be totally irrelevant - but when leopard geckos eat a bit too much at once, especially of uneasily disgested foods, they behave exactly like this and will regurgitate it. Going easy on the feeding and feeding more easily digestible foods help with the leos.


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## gothicfairy (Apr 27, 2012)

thank you again for all the info. I was told to feed the salamander small mealies and did. am now regretting listening to the info i have received. I also keep leopards and agree that they also suffer from compaction if not getting the correct food.
He doesnt seem as bloated today but still hiccuping and not himself. if i can get a good pic i will post one up in a bit. thanks again


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

stick to earth worms they are a complete food


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## bellabelloo (Mar 31, 2007)

Also be carefully not to overfeed them. Tigers really enjoy food and soon learn to beg relentlessly to be fed, mine get fed a couple of earthworms every few days.


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## Bluefrogs (Jun 14, 2011)

Please don't feed them meal worms. Essentially mealworms are better for reptiles which tend to chew them killing them in the process. Frogs tend to eat their foods live. Mealworms have been know to live inside amphibians stomachs sometimes eating their way out....best way to feed frogs, salamanders mealworms is to get a dead one and entice the amphip by wiggling it about in front of the frog pretending it's alive! I don't have the time and the patience to do that so would never bother fullstop with mealworms. It's not worth the risk.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Bluefrogs said:


> Please don't feed them meal worms. Essentially mealworms are better for reptiles which tend to chew them killing them in the process. Frogs tend to eat their foods live. *Mealworms have been know to live inside amphibians stomachs sometimes eating their way out..*..best way to feed frogs, salamanders mealworms is to get a dead one and entice the amphip by wiggling it about in front of the frog pretending it's alive! I don't have the time and the patience to do that so would never bother fullstop with mealworms. It's not worth the risk.


Actually, that's been shown to be pretty much a myth, but undoubtably worms are a better food. You could also try small slugs and snails.

EDIT: What is true is that maggots/gentles (as sold for fishing) have been known to pass through the amphibian digestive tract and come out the other end still alive! Tough little wotsits.

Not in the slightest bit relevant- just interesting lol.


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## auratusman (Mar 22, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> Actually, that's been shown to be pretty much a myth, but undoubtably worms are a better food. You could also try small slugs and snails.
> 
> EDIT: What is true is that maggots/gentles (as sold for fishing) have been known to pass through the amphibian digestive tract and come out the other end still alive! Tough little wotsits.
> 
> Not in the slightest bit relevant- just interesting lol.


Hi Ron its not a myth as regards to mealworms its actually a fact and ive been told many times this and i leanrt the hard way with one of my green toads years ago.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmmm an amphibian is unlikely to come into contact with anything resembling a meal worn in the wild, amphibs moist damp conditions, meal worms dry dusty conditions. It is feasable that because amphibs swallow thier food live that a food item with mouth parts like a meal worm could in fact injure the animal internally and cause death. I sure as hell only feed my amphibs soft boddied food.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

rigsby said:


> hmmmm an amphibian is unlikely to come into contact with anything resembling a meal worn in the wild, amphibs moist damp conditions, meal worms dry dusty conditions. It is feasable that because amphibs swallow thier food live that a food item with mouth parts like a meal worm could in fact injure the animal internally and cause death. I sure as hell only feed my amphibs soft boddied food.


As part of a school project, in Brazil, many years ago, I 'dissected' wild caught cane toad droppings, to determine what they had been eating. The actual proportions varied from toad to toad, but *all* had beetle wingcases, fragments of snail shells and other hard remains including insect jaws. It would seem _they_ don't worry about it as much as we do...


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## beaniebopps (Oct 4, 2009)

auratusman said:


> Hi Ron its not a myth as regards to mealworms its actually a fact and ive been told many times this and i leanrt the hard way with one of my green toads years ago.


Perhaps it is true with amphibians then - but as a leopard gecko keeper I can tell you stories about mealworms eating lizards from the inside out have made their way round the keepers as much as that one about a cousin's friend's snake measuring her up to eat her.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

I have seen what Mealworms that have not been chewed properly CAN do, however the case isnt easy to come across often... They can eat through Stomach Lining as I have had to perform a PM on a Beardie Once that had mealworm dead inside it outside the stomach (must of been such a horrid and painful death but stupidly this was years ago and I never took a photo!  ) because someone fed it mealworms to much, but honestly it doesnt happen often otherwise they wouldnt even be sold as livefood :/ 

Back to the Tiger, you really need to post a picture up in all honesty so we can SEE the problem rather than hear what you describe it then guess away lol Bella is right and out lf personal experience Tigers are too greedy for their own good, mind particularly is lazy as he wont hunt anymore because he prefers hand feeding however I wont ever feed him more than I need to give him :/
Until you post a pic up I dont think anyone can say what it is, with my T.kweichowensis female I thought she was overweight or had a illness but turns out she was just gravid and waiting to lay! Lol (not saying thats your issue but you need a pic up)


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I sometimes feed my whites mealworms if I run out of other foods... No frogs have been eaten yet! :lol2:


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I sometimes feed my whites mealworms if I run out of other foods... No frogs have been eaten yet! :lol2:


Haha as I said its a rare and not an easy thing to come by! :L plus I personally think that in cases where it does happen, there must be something wrong with the animal or its been fed to many MW'sbut I havent looked into it lol.. but I just dont bother feeding them MW's full stop, I prefer Earth worms for my Caudata lol


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

It's a rarity that I run out of other foods anyway. Although they had some mealworms over the bank holiday :lol2:


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> It's a rarity that I run out of other foods anyway. Although they had some mealworms over the bank holiday :lol2:


Haha :L well if you have to use something then you have to eh! :L I mostly overstock anyway and end up with more than normal because they breed haha :L


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Would tree frogs eat earth worms? I find mine don't really like worms, some even try to spit wax worms out too! Weird frogs!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

MantellaMan said:


> Haha as I said its a rare and not an easy thing to come by! :L *plus I personally think that in cases where it does happen, there must be something wrong with the animal *or its been fed to many MW'sbut I havent looked into it lol.. but I just dont bother feeding them MW's full stop, I prefer Earth worms for my Caudata lol


There was an article mentioning this in PRK a long while ago, suggesting that very thing. It also pointed out that (contrary to yet another popular myth) they can actually be quite nutritious, if raised properly. I use them occasionally, my toads especially seem to like them- and the FBTs love the beetles! Like any foods, problems start when they are used too much, or even exclusively. Variety is key.


EDIT: @ Jazzy: Yep, I feed my treefrogs worms. It's a bit tedious hanging on to them with forceps till the frogs catch on, but they are really good for them.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Would tree frogs eat earth worms? I find mine don't really like worms, some even try to spit wax worms out too! Weird frogs!


Well i personally I dont think tree frogs would go for them, you can try them though they are good nutrientious foods!  should be fine for them though aslong as they are an ok size for them to eat...

Edit: there we go so they are fine to feed like ron told us! Haha


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

My whites will go for anything if waved in their face, then they decide if they like the taste or not :lol2:


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> There was an article mentioning this in PRK a long while ago, suggesting that very thing. It also pointed out that (contrary to yet another popular myth) they can actually be quite nutritious, if raised properly. I use them occasionally, my toads especially seem to like them- and the FBTs love the beetles! Like any foods, problems start when they are used too much, or even exclusively. Variety is key.
> 
> 
> EDIT: @ Jazzy: Yep, I feed my treefrogs worms. It's a bit tedious hanging on to them with forceps till the frogs catch on, but they are really good for them.


I thought MW's were quite nutirious anyway? I never knew there was a myth behind that! Lol but yeah as you said it can lead to problems if they arent fed a varied diet. Thats where I think this cases occur from personally :/


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## beaniebopps (Oct 4, 2009)

Actually, all else equal, mealworms are a bit less nutritious than your average earthworm, cricket, locust or fruit fly - depending on how you classify nutrition of course. 

For example, calcium content of mealworms is 0.1mg/kg dry matter. Cricket = 2.1, earthworm = 1.2 - both more than 10x the amount. 

Iron content - mealworm = 40mg/kg, cricket = 224mg/kg, FF=473mg/kg, commercial earthworm = 11090mg/kg!

Mealworms have 3x the amount of fat than a commercial earthworm, and 12x the amount of fat of a wild caught earthworm. Mealworms also have one of the lowest ash contents of commonly fed feeder insects.

Of course - they are better than waxworms!

Apologies this is totally off-topic :blush: I'll go away now...


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## gothicfairy (Apr 27, 2012)

hi guys. thank you for all the info. sadly i have found the salamander dead this morning. all bloating had gone a couple of days ago but still wouldnt eat. its too late now and i have got on the the people i had it from. such a pain and am very sad.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

gothicfairy said:


> hi guys. thank you for all the info. sadly i have found the salamander dead this morning. all bloating had gone a couple of days ago but still wouldnt eat. its too late now and i have got on the the people i had it from. such a pain and am very sad.


Im very sorry too hear this  its a real shame its happened, I personally think you should get a PM done on it to find out what happened and be safe...


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## beaniebopps (Oct 4, 2009)

gothicfairy said:


> hi guys. thank you for all the info. sadly i have found the salamander dead this morning. all bloating had gone a couple of days ago but still wouldnt eat. its too late now and i have got on the the people i had it from. such a pain and am very sad.


Very sorry. RIP little salamander 

Unfortunately you are unlikely to get anywhere with wherever you bought it from. If it was a shop they tend to have a 48 hour warranty period, and don't really care if anything goes wrong after that. And as you said, he was eating fine when you brought him home.

I agree with above, the only way of knowing what went wrong is to have a post mortem done.


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## gothicfairy (Apr 27, 2012)

thanx guys, me and the fella are gutted. i did get a replacement sal but its not the same is it. there were no questions asked and they gave me no reason as to why the 1st one died. this is not the first thing ive had from them though that only lasted a week. the first one was an agama and died within two days


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

did you take out the sphagnum ?


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

rigsby said:


> did you take out the sphagnum ?


Sphagnum is not a really a possibility, I know people who use it and I personally use Sphagnum Moss with a few of my Animals (After I wash and rinse it well) and dont know of any bloating problems to do with it. I have never had a problem, and thats said by most people that talk to new comers about using it. 
Sphagnum Moss is slightly acidic but I dont know of many people suffering from cases to do with it, plus I have never heard of Bloating being a symptom caused by it... Until a PM or examination is done on the Salamander (wich in all honesty is not going to happen) we cant be certain of what caused the death.

Edit: I just read what the user with the problem originally said and noticed something to do/seems like hiccups which normally is to do with digestion. If it was bloated around the stomach area it could of been a Internal Gastric Problem or a Blockage somewhere along it... Would be interesting to hear back from a PM


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

With sphagnum comes a very low ph which can be troublesome to a lot of caudates also the batches of sphagnum vary a hell of a lot from one batch to another. Some caudates aren't affected at all while some are, ambystomids are one of the species affected and bloating is one of the symptoms,


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

rigsby said:


> With sphagnum comes a very low ph which can be troublesome to a lot of caudates also the batches of sphagnum vary a hell of a lot from one batch to another. Some caudates aren't affected at all while some are, ambystomids are one of the species affected and bloating is one of the symptoms,


Well as I said, I havent heard that before. In all honesty its Rare/not common to come across illness caused by Sphagnum and in all honesty it would be more long term rather than being a week maybe more... This is probably more something to do with Gastro-intestinal problems or to do with other things to do with husbandry, no one has asked about what temperature it was kept at yet or water condition, lighting or how big the food was that was offered (which could be connected to the Hiccups/breathing irregularity lol)


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Its well known about acidity in sphagnum moss,and as Rigsby said, ambystomids can react quite badly.
I know we did ask about temps etc, but i did ask for a pic on the 9th, the day the OP originally posted, and up to the point it died on the 14th, we didnt get one, i was hoping with the pic we may have seen the set up etc and gone from there, the sal went down hill fairly quick from there.
It could have been any number of issues, but in this case, we cant help.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Ben W said:


> Its well known about acidity in sphagnum moss,and as Rigsby said, ambystomids can react quite badly.
> I know we did ask about temps etc, but i did ask for a pic on the 9th, the day the OP originally posted, and up to the point it died on the 14th, we didnt get one, i was hoping with the pic we may have seen the set up etc and gone from there, the sal went down hill fairly quick from there.
> It could have been any number of issues, *but in this case, we cant help*.


But, given the OP has now got a new salamander, advice could still be useful.


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