# CKCS or Bichon Frise stud required



## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Hi I am looking for a stud dog of either of the above breeds. DOES NOT need to be KC REG as neither of my bitches are. However I am needing the following:-
Good conformation/shape (especially the head if CKCS- NO squashed up faces!)
Excellent temperament 
Recent vet check/up to date with vaccinations 
Close to Bath or Chippenham or happy to come to me

Please no silly prices..may consider pick of litter(s) for right dog/owner if covering both my bitches.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

So whats going to be the designer name of these high priced mongrels then:whistling2:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I've been breeding Cavaliers for years and decided this year to put one of my bitches with a non moulting Bichon as Cavachons are becoming very popular due their suitability for those with allergies..
I already have three people who have reserved puppies, all of which have had pups from me before.
I wouldnt breed if I wasn't sure I could find good homes for them, but as I have recently moved I need to find a new stud. 
Hope that clarifies.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

5plusmany said:


> I've been breeding Cavaliers for years and decided this year to put one of my bitches with a non moulting Bichon as Cavachons are becoming very popular due their suitability for those with allergies..
> I already have three people who have reserved puppies, all of which have had pups from me before.
> I wouldnt breed if I wasn't sure I could find good homes for them, but as I have recently moved I need to find a new stud.
> Hope that clarifies.


Cavalier bichon crosses are not suitable for those with allergies at all. One in every four will have a significantly reduced shedding which in turn may or may not help allergy sufferers depending on their sensitivity. Out of the first generation of labrador poodle crosses for the purpose of guide dogs there was only one suitable dog from a litter of 12.
Equally of issue is the overbreeding of dogs who are not top examples of their breed, considering yours are not even registered they can not be considered to be even good examples.
There will be hundreds of perfectly good dogs put to sleep this year, crosses are much more likely to face this fate than pedigrees, and by adding to the canine population with a bunch of irresponsibly bred dogs you are signing the death warrants of a fair few of them.
Please just enjoy your dogs for who they are and don't use them as a way to make money.


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## martyb (Sep 5, 2007)

Disgusting, yet more mongrels being bred for silly money and with silly names just to make their owner some money.:devil:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I am fully aware that a non moulting breed is not necessarily suitable for an allergy sufferer, but I do know a number of people with Bichons, and Cavachons, who couldn't have other breeds.

My dogs are not registered quite simply because I refuse to line the pockets of an organisation whose ethics are questionable, to say the least. They all have excellent pedigrees and I strive to produce healthy puppies of a larger build, particularly in the head, than you would find in a kennel club show, from consistently heart clear bitches.

Furthermore, I am in touch with the owners of every single puppy I've ever sold, bar one which was returned to me which I still have four years on. I will always buy back my puppies, for the sake of their welfare AND my piece of mind.
You don't know me, so please don't jump to conclusions.


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## Ameliaxx (Apr 9, 2010)

5plusmany said:


> I am fully aware that a non moulting breed is not necessarily suitable for an allergy sufferer, but I do know a number of people with Bichons, and Cavachons, who couldn't have other breeds.
> 
> My dogs are not registered quite simply because I refuse to line the pockets of an organisation whose ethics are questionable, to say the least. They all have excellent pedigrees and I strive to produce healthy puppies of a larger build, particularly in the head, than you would find in a kennel club show, from consistently heart clear bitches.
> 
> ...


although you do sound like you have your animals best interest at heart , why breed crosses?


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Cavachons, although a fairly 'new' hybrid, are increasing in popularity as a small,intelligent,low shedding breed. Not to mention that providing both parents (and ideally grandparents) are in excellent health, crossbreeds generally live longer healthier lives than purebreeds.
I think I must be missing something here - why am I all but being burned at the stake simply for aiming higher. Ok, first generations may not be the 'ideal', but further down the line...good examples include lurchers, labradoodles, toy poodles. ..
Some of the above comments seem snobbish to say the least!


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

martyb said:


> Disgusting, yet more mongrels being bred for silly money and with silly names just to make their owner some money.:devil:


How dare you!! EDUCATE YOURSELF:

www.greatdogsite.com/hybrids/details/Cavachon

Fiona the mongrel and a spot of bother at Crufts: 'Impure' dalmatian angers traditionalists at the elite pedigree dog show | Mail Online 

Now if nobody has anything constructive to say, say nothing!


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## Ameliaxx (Apr 9, 2010)

5plusmany said:


> Cavachons, although a fairly 'new' hybrid, are increasing in popularity as a small,intelligent,low shedding breed. Not to mention that providing both parents (and ideally grandparents) are in excellent health, crossbreeds generally live longer healthier lives than purebreeds.
> I think I must be missing something here - why am I all but being burned at the stake simply for aiming higher. Ok, first generations may not be the 'ideal', but further down the line...good examples include lurchers, labradoodles, toy poodles. ..
> Some of the above comments seem snobbish to say the least!


I wasn't being rude I'm sorry if it came of that way I was just interested in what makes someone breed crosses who has always bred pure dogs  I have to say you do sound like you love your dogs I'm not a purest as I love a lurcherand do belive that in breeds that out crossing is neccesairy, I think though as a lot of people who are on here see what happen to those crosses(and peds) that end in rescue and the overcrowding there is so when you see a post about a stud wanting to cross it seems like a nother litter that will end up in a rescue but as you said you have homes lined up and seemed to keep in contact with them after so good look to you also not all KC dogs and breeders are unhealthy I have a KC wheaten terrier that has never ever needed to see a vet except for vacs and neuturing and he's 8


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

5plusmany said:


> How dare you!! EDUCATE YOURSELF:
> 
> www.greatdogsite.com/hybrids/details/Cavachon
> 
> ...


I wouldnt take any site that calls these crosses "hybrids" seriously...a hybrid is a mix of species, dogs are the same species....

It worries me more than you dont want health tested studs, when breeding a recent vet check doesnt really cut it , i would want to know the dogs history ESPECIALLY regarding syringeomylia (sp?)


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## Ameliaxx (Apr 9, 2010)

ami_j said:


> I wouldnt take any site that calls these crosses "hybrids" seriously...a hybrid is a mix of species, dogs are the same species....
> 
> It worries me more than you dont want health tested studs, when breeding a recent vet check doesnt really cut it , i would want to know the dogs history ESPECIALLY regarding syringeomylia (sp?)


have to agrre with ami_J on this.I think all dogs concidered for breeding should have all health test that are relevent.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

heart and eye tests minimum for a cavvy surely?


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Ameliaxx said:


> also not all KC dogs and breeders are unhealthy


I agree! Never had problems with mine either...:2thumb:
Just pees me off when one person starts then everyone else jumps on the bandwagon without a single question, its nothing short of bullying..
I shall stay clear of this section of the forum from now on there's too much bitchiness:bash:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

All my CKCSs are heart and eye tested annually. I had my eldest bitch MRI scanned at just under two years old to be told, after I had forked out £600, that although clear now, doesn't mean she wont develop symptoms later! After seeking advice from the breed club, I was told 'most' Cavaliers have the malformation associated with syringomyelia, but not all have the dreaded problems of the condition. Therefore a 'watchful eye' is the best ongoing care.. well unless you have money to burn. Syringomyelia is my biggest concern and the main reason I would choose a stud with a larger head over one who conforms more closely to the breed 'standard'.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

5plusmany said:


> Therefore a 'watchful eye' is the best ongoing care.. well unless you have money to burn. Syringomyelia is my biggest concern and the main reason I would choose a stud with a larger head over one who conforms more closely to the breed 'standard'.


This statement in itself shows how little you know or care about the genetics of the dogs you own or plan to produce. The cavvie SM database has been running since 2006 as far as I know and gives an accurate grade for each animal and recommendations for breeding. There is a 2012 SM protocol currently recommended and detailed here - SM Protocol
In addition as I already told you, Cavalier bichon crosses are not 'non shedding' there may be the odd one who inherits most of the bichon side is low shedding enough to not produce an allergic reaction, but most will be normal shedding dogs.
Lastly, if you can't afford to breed responsibly then you shouldn't be breeding at all, sure your poor dogs have earned that £600 back for you many times over in the sale of pups.


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## martyb (Sep 5, 2007)

5plusmany said:


> I am fully aware that a non moulting breed is not necessarily suitable for an allergy sufferer, but I do know a number of people with Bichons, and Cavachons, who couldn't have other breeds.
> 
> My dogs are not registered quite simply because I refuse to line the pockets of an organisation whose ethics are questionable, to say the least. They all have excellent pedigrees and I strive to produce healthy puppies of a larger build, particularly in the head, than you would find in a kennel club show, from consistently heart clear bitches.
> 
> ...


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

dont the kc limit litters to 3 in the lifetime of the bitch?

i wonder if that would explain the rapid countrywide increase in mongrel making?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

pigglywiggly said:


> dont the kc limit litters to 3 in the lifetime of the bitch?
> 
> i wonder if that would explain the rapid countrywide increase in mongrel making?


Four according to the website, but seeing as you shoudn't breed a dog before 2 years or past 8 and you should only breed every other year at most, you'd struggle to fit even four in. That is if you are breeding responsibly.
I don't think that really increases the mongrel making, as if you want to breed your dog dozens of times you can still produce pedigrees, but just not registered ones.
I think it's more to do with priorities, whether you care more for the lines you are producing or the money you are making, a responsible breeder of champion health tested dogs will usually make nothing or even lose money on the sale of pups, knocking out any old pups without registration or health checking and charging a lot of money for a silly name can make you a fortune, but it's the dogs who will suffer.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Devi said:


> This statement in itself shows how little you know or care about the genetics of the dogs you own or plan to produce. The cavvie SM database has been running since 2006 as far as I know and gives an accurate grade for each animal and recommendations for breeding. There is a 2012 SM protocol currently recommended and detailed here - SM Protocol[/Us.




This is pretty much the advice and information given to me by the vet. I certainly will test my eldest bitch again this year, at 5. This should also give a good indication then of any of her offspring's suitability for breeding. But im sure you would agree, waiting until that age before breeding is not an option. Also, she has only had two litters and this years will most likely be her last. Neither of my bitches were bred last year.
"experts report that it is believed to be inherited in the cavalier King Charles spaniel. CM is so widespread in the cavalier that it may be an inherent part of the CKCS's breed standard." Hence why conforming strictly to the breed standard in this respect is not my goal, and you're not going to convince me otherwise:whistling2:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

martyb said:


> 5plusmany said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

5plusmany said:


> This is pretty much the advice and information given to me by the vet. I certainly will test my eldest bitch again this year, at 5. This should also give a good indication then of any of her offspring's suitability for breeding. But im sure you would agree, waiting until that age before breeding is not an option. Also, she has only had two litters and this years will most likely be her last. Neither of my bitches were bred last year.
> "experts report that it is believed to be inherited in the cavalier King Charles spaniel. CM is so widespread in the cavalier that it may be an inherent part of the CKCS's breed standard." Hence why conforming strictly to the breed standard in this respect is not my goal, and you're not going to convince me otherwise:whistling2:


Did you even read that link? ALL your dogs should be tested before breeding, and repeatedly throughout their breeding life, equally any studs you use should be tested wel before breeding. The comment above that refers to dogs that exhibit low grade sm signs which are asymptomatic being used in breeding programs does not give you carte blanche to breed your untested, non registered dogs without giving a damn about the unhealthy puppies you produce.
Waiting until an older age until breeding is definitely an option, breeding does not benefit a dog in any way and unless you are sure that the dog has low to no risk of inherited disease then you should not be breeding at all. 
If you really want to breed then get yourself a puppy from top lines with fully tested parents, show her to championship and at 2.5/3 years, have her tested for everything possible, including any diseases which can be sexually transmitted and if she proves fully clear then you can find an appropriate stud through the breed club who compliments your girls features perfectly, then breed fully registered heathy puppies who benefit the breed as a whole.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Jesus christ you really have got a bee in your bonnet haven't you?! 
My bitches ARE from quality lines. I'm not the least bit interested in showing. I have CKCSs because of their fantastic temperaments. Health wise I am confident and happy with the advice given by my VET and the ongoing health of puppies sold proves I've made no mistakes. Ive yet to meet a breeder who MRI tests more than once or twice.
And as regards Cavachons, its not like I've had an accidental mating and gone 'whoops!', I'm making a concious, informed decision.
Now clearly you have a problem with me, so I'll leave you off the waiting list and we will just agree to disagree!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Dogs from quality lines are not sold unregistered unless the dogs are deemed as unsuitable for breeding.
In addition you are not making an informed decision on the potential breeding between different breeds, informed suggests you have actually found out about the situation. Your insistence that the dogs will be non shedding suggests woeful ignorance. 
If your friends want a cross breed dog they should check out rescues who are currently dealing with the hundreds of bichon and poodle crossbreeds that are thrown out every year, usually for shedding hair and triggering allergic reactions.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

5plusmany said:


> And as regards Cavachons, its not like I've had an accidental mating and gone 'whoops!', I'm making a concious, informed decision.
> Now clearly you have a problem with me, so I'll leave you off the waiting list and we will just agree to disagree!



Oh for crying out loud, not another bl:censor:y stupid name for a crossbred dog :bash:. Is this a name to add extra £'s to the puppies?


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

Whats wrong with breeding with pure breed to pure breed anymore Its all about the crossbreeds these days. that could have problems associated with both of the parent breeds.

it is very sad indeed when people want to crossbreed on purpose.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

5plusmany said:


> martyb said:
> 
> 
> > No. They are pedigree Cavalier King Charles spaniels. And in any case, the kennel club does have a separate register for 'mongrels'.
> ...


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## kirksandallchinchillas (Sep 29, 2009)

corny girl said:


> 5plusmany said:
> 
> 
> > There is no register for mongrels with the KC. To register a dog you need to know the parentage of the animal in question & provide a pedigree certificate. I had to go through this when i registered my retired racing Greyhound, she is now KC registered & has qualified for Crufts a couple of times too :2thumb:. There is a difference between pedigree & KC registered :whistling2:.
> ...


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## martyb (Sep 5, 2007)

kirksandallchinchillas said:


> corny girl said:
> 
> 
> > Any dog can be registered with the Kennel Club on the Activity Register
> ...


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I don't like the stupid names any more than the next person but it does seem everyone is so dead set against crosses that they aren't really willing to listen to what is being said. 
A cross breed from health checked parents, that are raised to a family that care about their health etc. are willing to take puppies back if it doesn't work out, is better than an accidental mating and is probably better than a fair few pedigree breeders. 

I would personally never buy one, and I wouldn't call it a 'cavachon' but if they already have people that want them then they are worth as much as anyone is willing to pay, aslong as they don't end up in rescue.


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

This thread just seems to be about attacking the OP, TBH.
When we were looking for a dog for my daughter, we visited rescues and out of all the dogs I saw there was only 1 small breed, which was a terrier. All the rest were mainly staffs and american bulldogs, so I think the comment about them ending up in rescues is a bit over the top
A dog is worth what someone is willing to pay


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## CorntasticBully (Jan 21, 2012)

If you were concerned about health you'd require more than what you are stating. 

The stud you breed to is important.

SM is genetic it might be made worse by conformation but simply breeding non standard dogs won't eliminate the problem.


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## Spindigo (Jun 7, 2010)

rosie75 said:


> This thread just seems to be about attacking the OP, TBH.
> When we were looking for a dog for my daughter, we visited rescues and out of all the dogs I saw there was only 1 small breed, which was a terrier. All the rest were mainly staffs and american bulldogs, so I think the comment about them ending up in rescues is a bit over the top
> A dog is worth what someone is willing to pay


There are a lot of small breeds in rescue. Take a look at many tears site, it should give an idea as to why so many people are opposed to this type of breeding.


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## rosie75 (Oct 8, 2009)

Not wanting to get into a debate, just giving my experience and opinion.
And Many tears seems to try to rehome many ex breeding dogs, so a little different to what is being discussed.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

rosie75 said:


> And Many tears seems to try to rehome many ex breeding dogs, so a little different to what is being discussed.


Some are, many aren't. There's actually a cavalier cross bichon on their site at the moment because he couldn't be found a home, he's only 8 weeks old.
Other rescues that deal with small breeds are the little dog rescue and yorkshire terrier and toy breed rescue. There are many breed rescues too, in fact designer dogs are now so common that labrador poodle crosses have needed their own rescue.
I have a KC cavalier from top lines and a shih tzu who were both rescues through no fault of their own and have fostered plenty more.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

And another....... http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...leondoodle-puppies-leonberger-x-standard.html :bash:


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## martyb (Sep 5, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> And another....... http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...leondoodle-puppies-leonberger-x-standard.html :bash:


 ACCIDENTAL mating,what a load off rubbish, the bitch could have had the injection to prevent this pregnancy, someone else jumping on the band wagon to make some money, i mean look at the prices for these mongrels.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I have to admit the breeding of these cross breeds upset me no more than the breeding of Jack Russells and especially Working sheepdog/Collie types. 

Staffies and the two listed above are all vastly over represented in rescues. I have seen someone here talking about their collie type dogs litter and get no flack and then there is this. Not saying the flack is not deserved, but it should be given equally to all and there is not much else that can be added here. All views have been given and likely nothing will be changed by it so my vote is to just move on....


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

leonburgerxpoodle seems a very odd mating. Would have thought they would get more for pure Leonburgers to be honest. 

There are many ex-breeding cavs and bichons on that many tears site, which is very sad, but aslong as his cav is a much loved family pet that will not be chucked into a rescue or over-bred and is willing to take back puppies, they needn't end up in rescue either. Ofcourse if you have people who only want them because they have allergies you may find that you have all of them being returned to you :whistling2:

Wish I had space for Tally off the many tears site, she's beautiful.

ETA: I think labs are over-represented in rescues, or it seems that way over here, we get a lot of labs and lab crosses, especially labxcollie crosses, lots of puppies...


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Kare said:


> I have to admit the breeding of these cross breeds upset me no more than the breeding of Jack Russells and especially Working sheepdog/Collie types.


If dogs are being bred for purpose then it is wholly defensible and in fact required, working dogs are needed. People breeding for money is the problem, which in turn leads to every dog breed being over represented in rescue, and every dog breed being put to sleep in pounds. 
Even if this person can truly take responsibility for every dog bred by them and their descendants (which could number hundreds within a few years), then by breeding these dogs they are taking up a space in a home that would otherwise be free for a homeless animal who will be put to sleep.
Someone who needs a top grade working dog or a perfect specimen to improve their beloved breed will never be able to replace that spot with a rescue dog, but apart from that, there is no reason to ever breed and peoples selfishness in this regard is leading to the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of dogs each year.
It is not defensible.


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## Spindigo (Jun 7, 2010)

em_40 said:


> There are many ex-breeding cavs and bichons on that many tears site, which is very sad, but aslong as his cav is a much loved family pet that will not be chucked into a rescue or over-bred and is willing to take back puppies, they needn't end up in rescue either. Ofcourse if you have people who only want them because they have allergies you may find that you have all of them being returned to you :whistling2:


For me the worry would be that these small breeds are loved by puppy farmers (as seen on the MT site), so whilst the parent dogs may well be safe, what's to stop the pups ending up as puppy farm breeders? So many pups get bought and then rehomed, so even if OP vets all prospective owners there's no real way to guarantee the safety of the pups long term.

Whilst the kennel club isn't perfect at least with registered pedigrees you know the parents aren't being over bred and you can trace the lines they come from. Plus all DNA health tests are recorded on the paperwork you get with a pedigree pup.

On a personal level, I just can't see the point in this sort of breeding. The chance of reduced shedding in the crossbreed is minimal, and if someone's so set on having a dog with a cavaliers temperament (I have a rescue cav myself, I can see the appeal) they should just get a cavalier. If they need a non shedding dog, get a bichon. I don't know much about bichons, but if they share a high risk of heart defects or any other common cav health issues then there's a chance of some very unhealthy pups.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Devi said:


> If dogs are being bred for purpose then it is wholly defensible and in fact required, working dogs are needed. People breeding for money is the problem, which in turn leads to every dog breed being over represented in rescue, and every dog breed being put to sleep in pounds.
> Even if this person can truly take responsibility for every dog bred by them and their descendants (which could number hundreds within a few years), then by breeding these dogs they are taking up a space in a home that would otherwise be free for a homeless animal who will be put to sleep.
> Someone who needs a top grade working dog or a perfect specimen to improve their beloved breed will never be able to replace that spot with a rescue dog, but apart from that, there is no reason to ever breed and peoples selfishness in this regard is leading to the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of dogs each year.
> It is not defensible.


*If *dogs are bred for a purpose, but the vast majority are not. Very very very few of the collie types or JR type dogs are bred either by people working them or will be used for working. I am not talking even there being a chance of one in the litter working. Recently someone here bred a litter to have a new agility dog, there are thousands of dogs in rescue that could be an amazing agility dog without breeding a whole litter. It is not uncommon for collie types to have large litters also, which is far more dogs into rescue than breeding most small breeds.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Kare said:


> *If *dogs are bred for a purpose, but the vast majority are not. Very very very few of the collie types or JR type dogs are bred either by people working them or will be used for working. I am not talking even there being a chance of one in the litter working. Recently someone here bred a litter to have a new agility dog, there are thousands of dogs in rescue that could be an amazing agility dog without breeding a whole litter. It is not uncommon for collie types to have large litters also, which is far more dogs into rescue than breeding most small breeds.


If their dog was a top agility dog then that's fine, loads of dogs make good agility dogs, one of my fosters a large terrier cross, was rehomed to an agility family. However the dogs currently winning the top prizes are bred for the job.
Yes eejits are breeding their collies and jrts for a quick buck, and those people need to be stopped, but that doesn't justify others breeding their dogs for no good reason, in fact it is even more of a reason to have all dogs spayed and neutered who are not top examples.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Back to the question though, top examples in what? Looks? Health? What are the standards? The most healthy pug on the planet could still be argued to be a very mutated dog.

Also as always I have to state that just because a dog is unneutered does not equal puppies. You need an uneducated person the other end of the lead for puppies


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Kare said:


> Back to the question though, top examples in what? Looks? Health? What are the standards? The most healthy pug on the planet could still be argued to be a very mutated dog.
> 
> Also as always I have to state that just because a dog is unneutered does not equal puppies. You need an uneducated person the other end of the lead for puppies


I'd say top in sport, work or form only. All bred dogs should be of top health, but top health alone means nothing really, I've seen 16 year old jack russells that can outrun a young collie, but will still end up in rescue. 
Your second point is very true, but owning an unneutered dog is always a potential issue, I know a few rescues who've had a dog escape, and these are experienced people who've owned dogs for years. There are reasons to have an unneutered animal, through age or illness, or even behaviour in some cases, I have one myself who will probably die if we put him under for the op, but the majority of dogs should be done at the appropriate age.
Off on a side point a little, I've recently discovered that in the past all working dogs were required to excell in work trials AND form in order to earn a ch., bloody good idea, no idea why that stopped!


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

em_40 said:


> Ofcourse if you have people who only want them because they have allergies you may find that you have all of them being returned to you:whistling2:...


I have considered this..! It would be very irresponsible to make that claim in first generations anyway.

For the record, cavachons have been around for over 15 years..
Although I've not found any bred further than f2? Not sure why? I'm still considering it and not made my mind up yet, would like to find more history and data..


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

5plusmany said:


> I have considered this..! It would be very irresponsible to make that claim in first generations anyway.
> 
> For the record, cavachons have been around for over 15 years..
> Although I've not found any bred further than f2? Not sure why? I'm still considering it and not made my mind up yet, would like to find more history and data..


It's a crossbreed, they've been around since the start of breeds, and i'm sure someone had bichon cavalier pups more than 15 years ago, but without a recognised goal for breeding they will never be more than a novelty.
I'm sure you know cavaliers were bred as a recreation of the original king charles spaniels which were considerably more healthy than the flat nosed king charles of today and used as small sporting dogs for the nobility. There was an official breeding aim and many breeds were used to develop the little dogs we know today, it took many generations to get there and many of the dogs along the way were discarded.
This is how most modern breeds were created, because there was a need for an animal to perform a function and an awful lot of skill, money and time went into it. I believe it was over a hundred years for some dogs and during that time a founding group will be working on all dogs until the breed is solid.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I got my Min Schnauzer x Yorkie 18 years ago and he never cost me a penny, he was just a mongrel in those days, Now they call them Schnorkies and sell them for big money, all because they have a stupid name:bash:


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> I got my Min Schnauzer x Yorkie 18 years ago and he never cost me a penny, he was just a mongrel in those days, Now they call them Schnorkies and sell them for big money, all because they have a stupid name:bash:


I remember those days - mongrels or "Heinz 57s" as they were a mixture!


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Devi said:


> without a recognised goal for breeding they will never be more than a novelty.


This is what I'm thinking..nobody out there seems to be committed to a long term goal. A proper breeding programme for 'cavachons' would require an awful lot of dogs, a collaboration of probably several breeders, a lot of time and effort. Not sure I want to go down that route! That said though, the cavachons I personally know are truly lovely dogs. The oldest is now ten and never had any health problems. Although I totally understand and agree with the point made about, if you want a loving temperament, just get a cavalier..etc.
As regards rescues, my mum has always ONLY had rescue dogs and, yes, its the right thing to do, admirable even if you're like her and have had so many BUT they are not necessarily right for everyone. Many (most?) cannot he trusted around young children, other dogs/cats etc. Most of the rescues my mum has had have had health problems, sadly often to do with neglect or abuse they've suffered. It has cost her a LOT of money over the years, not to mention heartache, and the odd one or two she had to give back. Rescue dogs are not always an option for people, as much as they want to.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

5plusmany said:


> As regards rescues, my mum has always ONLY had rescue dogs and, yes, its the right thing to do, admirable even if you're like her and have had so many BUT they are not necessarily right for everyone. Many (most?) cannot he trusted around young children, other dogs/cats etc. Most of the rescues my mum has had have had health problems, sadly often to do with neglect or abuse they've suffered. It has cost her a LOT of money over the years, not to mention heartache, and the odd one or two she had to give back. Rescue dogs are not always an option for people, as much as they want to.


Wow, well that's just poppycock, to put it politely! I have been fostering rescues since my daughter was tiny, and not a single one has been an issue with her. I've also got 3 cats permanently, and foster cats too, have had up to 15 cats and kittens in my house at one time, with rescue dogs, and they are perfect.
The majority have not been neglected or abused at all, the worst issues I've had are probably lack of house training. Of my 2 rescue forever dogs, one came in because her owner, a well known show lady, died unexpectedly, the other came from a puppy farm. Both are perfect little dogs.
Rescues come in all shapes and sizes, and ages from 6 weeks up to 20+ years, rescue dogs are an option for everyone.


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## beckyj (Oct 13, 2011)

Shell195 said:


> I got my Min Schnauzer x Yorkie 18 years ago and he never cost me a penny, he was just a mongrel in those days, Now they call them Schnorkies and sell them for big money, all because they have a stupid name:bash:


I've got a 7 year old Pug X Lhasa Apso and she didn't cost me a penny either, like you say they are after all mongrels. Sadly, hundreds of mongrels die every day just because they don't have a home, I really couldn't justify purposefully bringing more into the world.


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## hapcharpy (Feb 25, 2012)

*re ckc or bichon stud*

hi are you still looking for a stud as i have a proven bichon frise male thanks xxx


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

hapcharpy said:


> hi are you still looking for a stud as i have a proven bichon frise male thanks xxx



Erm, rather odd that you have just joined a REPTILE FORUM & your very first post is on this thread :whistling2:. Smells a bit fishy to me :gasp:.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

corny girl said:


> Erm, rather odd that you have just joined a REPTILE FORUM & your very first post is on this thread :whistling2:. Smells a bit fishy to me :gasp:.


 
Yup I think so too, no tags on this thread so its not as if it would come up on anywhere useful!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

corny girl said:


> Erm, rather odd that you have just joined a REPTILE FORUM & your very first post is on this thread :whistling2:. Smells a bit fishy to me :gasp:.


Sounds dodgy to me to so googled the username, and a load of posts came up about a lady claiming to have a bichon to stud and then conning people out of their money. I assume she's here because every other dodgy site has banned her.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

:gasp: google does throw up some interesting warnings


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## hapcharpy (Feb 25, 2012)

*re bichon frise*

I beg your pardon this is certainly not me as i am an accredited breeder this is an awful thing to do and i have references from all the females that he has mated with so your comment is not needed here


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## dotti (Jul 17, 2011)

*hello*

hi there. would be great if you could call me to discuss...
i have left you messages.... thanks. wendy


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

hapcharpy said:


> I beg your pardon this is certainly not me as i am an accredited breeder this is an awful thing to do and i have references from all the females that he has mated with so your comment is not needed here


this is a pet chat forum and polite debate is why were here.

out of interest, where does the kennel club accredited breeder scheme stand on breeding crossbred mongrels anyway?

as i know theres a big set of rules you have to abide by, including all puppies sold being registered with papers and all their parents being health tested?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Devi said:


> Sounds dodgy to me to so googled the username, and a load of posts came up about a lady claiming to have a bichon to stud and then conning people out of their money. I assume she's here because every other dodgy site has banned her.


Hmmmm the posts seem to have vanished now:gasp:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

hapcharpy said:


> I beg your pardon this is certainly not me as i am an accredited breeder this is an awful thing to do and i have references from all the females that he has mated with so your comment is not needed here


If you are an accredited breeder under the Kennel Clubs, ABS (Accredited Breeder Scheme) then you will know that the KC would remove your accredition if you use your KC registered dog to produce a litter of cross-breeds with a bitch of unknown history. 

Personally it makes me uncomfortable when people find studs via adverts so blase' like this. A stud dog should be found way before the bitch is ready to be mated, the 2 owners should meet, check out each other's dogs, check pedigrees, health records, etc etc.


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## Draco (Nov 23, 2005)

I never understand this cross breed thing.

If you have to dogs with exselent health result, have good conformation and tempriment, them why use them on another breed, it just wasted good gernetic, not so bad I supose if its a dog, but if its a bitch your wasting her time and engery on nothing.

The only time another breed should be used is to outcross.


Then again I was looking at the price of caverlier puppies last night on preloved (get a general idea would NEVER buy a puppie online) as thinking of getting one when my very old golden passes away.

lowest price for on of these cross breeds £650 highest £750

I sorry but if its not about money then what is it about??


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Draco said:


> I never understand this cross breed thing.
> 
> 
> lowest price for on of these cross breeds £650 highest £750
> ...


Blimey! I've only asked £450 for my Cavaliers in the past.
As I said earlier I don't think I'll be going down the Cavachon route tbh as to do so would be a long and arduous process. Its not for me I don't think. My younger bitch, although now two, is still looking rather juvenile so I shan't be breeding her yet. I have now found a lovely (health tested) Cavalier for my other bitch. Thanks to those who pm'd me with a more positive approach.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

5plusmany said:


> Blimey! I've only asked £450 for my Cavaliers in the past.
> As I said earlier I don't think I'll be going down the Cavachon route tbh as to do so would be a long and arduous process. Its not for me I don't think. My younger bitch, although now two, is still looking rather juvenile so I shan't be breeding her yet. I have now found a lovely (health tested) Cavalier for my other bitch. Thanks to those who pm'd me with a more positive approach.


£450 for non registered dogs is still pretty ridiculous, and you've already said that your dog has not been tested for SM so why would you need a health tested male? Did you see the dozen or so cavaliers at many tears? Every dog you breed is taking a home from a dog in rescue. 
Instead of breeding, why don't you foster for a cavalier rescue?
Like this - Cav Rescue
This place is apparently desperate too, having to turn dogs away who need help - Midland Cav Rescue
There is also the little dog rescue, or many tears, who almost always have a cav or ten in.
Would you truly breed while there are cavaliers being pts elsewhere?


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## JackR (Dec 14, 2010)

Why is it dogs are no longer pets?

All people seem to do now is breed their dogs, I'm not sure why, A dog is a pet to most people, yet to some it is just another addition to their income.


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## Draco (Nov 23, 2005)

Devi said:


> £450 for non registered dogs is still pretty ridiculous


 
My sister just payed that amount, for a puppie, mum a mini smooth dachond, dad a mini long dachond. Un reg (oviously) and not health tested. Thank goodness its a resonalbly health breed.

Sadly as much as I told her she was an idiot and the reasons why before she got the pup, she was still gonna get it no matter what I said.

I just come to the conclution fools and there money, and the pup needs a home and it her money.

If I do go on to buy a cavie pup I will be exspecting at least MRI scaned and MVD checked, I think they need eyes doing as well.


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## kirksandallchinchillas (Sep 29, 2009)

Draco said:


> My sister just payed that amount, for a puppie, mum a mini smooth dachond, dad a mini long dachond. Un reg (oviously) and not health tested. Thank goodness its a resonalbly health breed.


That's one thing I can never understand - why won't the KC register dogs bred from 2 varieties of the same breed, it will open the gene pool tremendously. As long as all health tests are carried out of course

Also if (for example) a Toy Poodle grows bigger than the standard size, why can't it be registered as a Mini? 

Some horse breeds have a more open attitude to breeding where they will register part breds, and allow upgrading so that after so many generations the horse can be registerd as a pure bred animal.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

kirksandallchinchillas said:


> That's one thing I can never understand - why won't the KC register dogs bred from 2 varieties of the same breed, it will open the gene pool tremendously. As long as all health tests are carried out of course
> 
> Also if (for example) a Toy Poodle grows bigger than the standard size, why can't it be registered as a Mini?
> 
> Some horse breeds have a more open attitude to breeding where they will register part breds, and allow upgrading so that after so many generations the horse can be registerd as a pure bred animal.


It has been a thought in the past, but crosses or non standard animals tend not to have the right confirmation anyway, for example in the chihuahua long and short crosses tend to have sparse hair which grows unevenly and without the fluff associated with true long hairs. It would definitely be an option to eradicate health issues, but the health issues usually span related breeds. It also raises the question of how far we can cross, if a wire and smooth daxie can cross, then can the spitz and pom? How about keeshond and pom?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

In the Cat Fancy when there is a breed with a small gene pool, the GCCF (equivalent of the Kennel Club) will agree permitted outcrosses to other breeds with similar characteristics and breeders are allowed to breed with those other breeds.

Resultant kittens are registered as a variant, so a cross between a Somali and an Abysinnian will be registered and known as a Somali variant - no such names as "Sominnians" or "Abymalis" in the Cat Fancy. :lol: 

They are registered and sold as pedigree kittens, for the same price as the full breeds.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

feorag said:


> In the Cat Fancy when there is a breed with a small gene pool, the GCCF (equivalent of the Kennel Club) will agree permitted outcrosses to other breeds with similar characteristics and breeders are allowed to breed with those other breeds.
> 
> Resultant kittens are registered as a variant, so a cross between a Somali and an Abysinnian will be registered and known as a Somali variant - no such names as "Sominnians" or "Abymalis" in the Cat Fancy. :lol:
> 
> They are registered and sold as pedigree kittens, for the same price as the full breeds.


There have been a few outcross projects in dogs, dalmation pointer comes to mind, but dogs are so different that it takes a long time to get back to any sort of confirmation. I believe it needs to be 5 generations since an outcross until you can apply for a pedigree certificate. Can't be 100% sure on that though, just what I've been told.


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

My in-laws have a mini dachshund and because one parent was long and one was short that is classed as a crossbreed. 

As a breeder you put so much work trying to breed for health temprement and also trying to work with type colour size ect as well
when you see people putting random things together or using pet shop animals it does offend and annoy that people just think oh well i want baby animals so who cares what i breed. and mess up generations of peoples hard work.

If it your pet then why not leave it as a pet. Breeding does nothing for the animal except put it at risk of problems, illness or death. It doesnt always end up in cute babys
If you are breeding either for show purposes or what ever reason why not do things properly use proper pedigree animals


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Devi said:


> There have been a few outcross projects in dogs, dalmation pointer comes to mind, but dogs are so different that it takes a long time to get back to any sort of confirmation. I believe it needs to be 5 generations since an outcross until you can apply for a pedigree certificate. Can't be 100% sure on that though, just what I've been told.


And did you see the furore that outcrossing caused on tonights Dog programme on BBC4?


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

poor fiona the dal is a social outcast in the dal world - the price of being free of inherited illness.

the worlds gone totally mad :gasp:


i know how she feels though...my ragdolls are seen as mongrels by some people because one has a siamese ancestor, and the others come from a persian waaay back.


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## dotti (Jul 17, 2011)

*HI....*

Hi. I have sent you a pm - would be great to get a reply and to be kept up to date on a regular basis with where things stand. Thanks.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

dotti said:


> Hi. I have sent you a pm - would be great to get a reply and to be kept up to date on a regular basis with where things stand. Thanks.


The OP has said they aren't going to breed these cross-bred puppies now.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> The OP has said they aren't going to breed these cross-bred puppies now.


"_Said"_ is the operative word though, Colin!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

curiously stud dog owners don't seem to get the same flaming as the bitch owners.There seems to be lots peddling their dogs sperm to all and sundry without a second thought to the resulting pups future:devil:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I have to agree - the attitude seems to be that the responsibility for homing the progeny and caring for them in the future falls on the female's owner in any species.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

In fairness, I shout at people offering studs in the classifieds too, but in this case the arguments against are already up here, so not sure what else we can do to stop these people being irresponsible?


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

to be honest its all bs ckcs are mutants with curupt gene pools and if some people choose to out breed em it really wouldn't hurt the breed's gene pool... :whistling2:

im not condoning breeding animals there are no market or homes for but bashing them for crossing a ckcs is hardly appropriate in my eyes...

and for certain breeds up and coming in the uk with no owners clubs or associations as yet its hard for people to keep in contact so whats the harm in responsible adverts but i would much rather it done in a different way....

I think it should be down to the bitch owner place a wanted for stud. and i think it should be down to the stud owners not to mate bitches owned by donuts....


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

ermgravy said:


> to be honest its all bs ckcs are mutants with curupt gene pools and if some people choose to out breed em it really wouldn't hurt the breed's gene pool... :whistling2:
> 
> im not condoning breeding animals there are no market or homes for but bashing them for crossing a ckcs is hardly appropriate in my eyes...
> 
> and for certain breeds up and coming in the uk with no owners clubs or associations as yet its hard for people to keep in contact so whats the harm in responsible stud and bitch adverts....


Breeding two dogs together of random breeds is not going to give you healthy puppies. That is not how genetics work. 
And how is it fine to breed mongrels if there is no market for them? You're happy for them to be born to be killed? 
And finally, if you have a rare breed (which the OP does not) and it has excelled in its field, whatever field that is, you will be breeding to another dog who has excelled in the same field and compliments your dogs genetics in order for the offspring to potentially be better than both parents. You can find them through many means, contacting a breeder directly, meeting at shows and comps, or contacting your dogs breeder for advice. You do not find it with a random ad on the internet for any old dog of the same breed.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

No the internet is a perfectly good place to meet... importation of rare breeds has boomed since wider spread use of the net. and some excellent specimens have come into country via internet connections... 

and i said i dont condone breeding dogs that there are no homes for...

but first attacking them for crossing that particular breed is bs...

and its not just rare breeds either, east german and working line gsd and belgium mals coming through more and more improving working lines here in the uk... again a lot of first contact is made via the internet...


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