# Should naming and shaming be allowed?



## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Following on from another thread, do you think it should be allowed on public forums?


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## sw3an29 (Jul 13, 2007)

yes i do in some cases


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

I would love it to be ok, but at the end of the day, it only causes problems for t-bo which is unfair on him. I voted No.


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## balthazar196 (Jun 1, 2007)

Yea i think it should be allowed BUT you must have evidence to surport your report like a photo...and also it should be done in a way that cannot start arguements =] although yes they can already start arguements if youve shamed someone lol


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree you need to have evidence otherwise you could get people ruining reputations because of personal vendettas which is wrong


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## garysumpter (Apr 18, 2005)

Without a doubt.

Name and shame, then send the shop/breeder/whatever a letter offering them to come on and defend themselves.

Obviously we all want whats best for the animals and NOT a slagging match.

Gary


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## sw3an29 (Jul 13, 2007)

i said _Yes, but only if animals mistreated and proor (e.g. photo) can be provided_


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## garysumpter (Apr 18, 2005)

Its difficult though, so many people bitch on here but do nothing.

Then again i've been in contact with the rspca about a certain shop for 3 months, they have visited a few times but I still dont know what action will / will not be taken.

Hard decisions.

Gary


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## Amber (Jun 11, 2006)

I think it depend... What someone sees as mistreating an animal, another person may say as difference in keeping styles.

Some cases are more extreme than others... I would say it should be allowed, but the person/shop MUST be able to defend themselves, but this couldn't really be guaranted.

There should be a list like I know they have in america, where there are threads for breeders/ shops, and people comment with negative or positive experiences.


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## jamie_coxon (Jul 18, 2007)

yes but only if it can be proved. that way its not done just to make someone look bad if nothing has actually been done wrong


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## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

I'd hope that before name/shaming, one would try to contact the party involved and tell them of their problem. Often misunderstandings get blown out of proportion when people fail to communicate. If after this, the party still has a blatant disregard for whatever the problem, then yes, I'd say with proof, name and shame. More than half of the naming and shaming I've seen on here has resulted from miscommunication though.


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## ninjaboy6r (Jul 24, 2007)

yes i think so if the animals are mistreated and kept in poor conditions.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Its not libel/slander whichever its is if your telling the truth. But if someone comes on and posts something that a shop doesn't like and they decide to take legal action it would be against Tbo not the poster. Whether its correct or not Tbo would still have a legal battle to contend with and I dont think he wants or has time for that. So, while we agree that they should be named and shamed Tbo doesn't want to have to go to court about it! But there is nothing stopping people PMing the poster and asking which shop they mean etc etc:smile:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Amber said:


> There should be a list like I know they have in america, where there are threads for breeders/ shops, and people comment with negative or positive experiences.


There's an "International" board of inquiry on that site, too.

I know there's a couple of posts by UK users.

As long as people add the site to their bookmarks.... there's no reason we can't start using the space that Rich Zuchowski has provided.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

I think as long as proof is there then there is no come back on the forums. the only problems will arise when it is abused to satisfy personal vendettas, kind of like what happened in the US with the "shhh don't tell anyone but [rival breeder]has ibd in his collection" internet whispers game.

Proof or the thread goes i'd say.

Mason


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

Yes if proof can be provided


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I have come into contact with numerous occasions when people will "name and shame" for their own benefit, because they don't like the people involved, have a personal vendetta, or even worse.. because they are affiliated with a rival business and want to improve their business by downing others (unfortunately, this happens a lot)

Because opinion is subjective, negative reviews are often misperceived, misunderstood.. or things that could be cleared up quite easily..

So i didn't vote, because I couldn't really make my mind up. Yes, you should be able to provide evidence of negligence, especially if you have photos, but perhaps, this should be sent to the council, not on a public forum. If there is actual evidence of cruelty or law breaking, then the shop will eventually get shut down.

I don't know.. we review everything else, you review restaurants, hotels.. there are whole websites reviewing holiday providers, resorts, shops.. services... why reptiles are different, I really don't know.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

Plutino said:


> I'd hope that before name/shaming, one would try to contact the party involved and tell them of their problem. Often misunderstandings get blown out of proportion when people fail to communicate. If after this, the party still has a blatant disregard for whatever the problem, then yes, I'd say with proof, name and shame. More than half of the naming and shaming I've seen on here has resulted from miscommunication though.


in all honesty the people know what they are doing wrong.. seriously, they do.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

its not always cut and dried tho is it.

for instance. a picture was posted on this forum recently, buy someone, which showed alleged (by the poster) mis-handling of a large snake.

the owner of the premises, and the snake in question, was alerted to the post, and it turns out the incident was not quite how reported by the poster on here.

the post was taken down, and last i heard, he was going to sue the poster, i mean properly sue them, and not just be all mouth and no trousers about it.. and in fact i don't think i have seen them, the poster, on here since.

much though i like the idea of name and shame, i would also vote no.

N


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

As far as im concerned, if someone messes the hobby around in anyway, and dealings with the person could be very bad for any one else in the hobby. Then they should be named and shamed!
If you got conned by someone, and then you found out that people that know you havent said a thing (just let you get stitched up with your dosh) THAT would annoy me more than the guy stitching me up!
Its the fact it could have been avoided.
Hw about we have a Review forum... Where we can jsut note down perosnal experiences, good and bad in a single thread related to a single person...like this
Board Message
Its called seller/trader reviews


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## t-bo (Jan 26, 2005)

The trouble is even if someone is posting the truth about a bad shop (and therefore RFUK isnt publishing anything liable) I can still be taken to court by the shop in question if I refuse to remove the posts. It would have to be ultimately decided on by the court who is in the wrong and potentially I could be left with court costs or worse! 

In the US it is different because its possible to ensure that a user is responsible for there own posts so it is only the person posting the information who can get sued, whereas in the UK a webmaster can be done for 'publishing' liable no matter what the circumstances of the user posting it.

Its all very dodgy ground to be honest, ive often said in the past its 'fair game' to post your negative *experiences *(not negative *opinions*) but if I am approached by the shop/business in question I would probably have to remove or edit the thread. However, these days and the bigger RFUK gets, if someone posts about a shop / business / person they find out very quickly! A while ago there had been a few people slagging off a business and I was contacted by the business and threatened with legal action, I noticed when searching for the company in question in Google the company was first and the thread slagging them off on RFUK was second!  (lol I can see the damages and loss of earnings costs being awarded by the court now)

Its basically better and safer for all concerned to keep any actual naming to PM. Name the area, the type of business and your EXPERIENCE in the thread but keep the name to PM... most people will know who you are talking about if they are in the same area.


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

it could cause legal issues and tbh if you ain't man enough to sort suff out mano eh mano then you shouldn't really be in charge of animal / reptiles.


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

bci said:


> it could cause legal issues and tbh if you ain't man enough to sort suff out mano eh mano then you shouldn't really be in charge of animal / reptiles.


Thtat doesnt make sense to me, lol
The reason i would try to post names would be to help other people avoid the bad trader, i apreciate people posting their experiences with sellers/traders. Its nice to see a traders review. I mean a review, not a slagging contest just posts of personal experience, good and bad, to help peoples decisions. I personally am wiery of names i dont know, so many times the trader/ seller review on T-store has helped me make my decision, its so damn helpful.
I recon there is going to be a damn big amount of scams that has taken place that need not have had, and a large sum have money having been transfered after reading through a trader review.
TBH, T-store reviews are actually mostly positive and for confirmation of different names and sites. scammers tha know of the reviews tend not to frequent that site for fear of being blacklisted.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

NO... if it caused legal hassle for t-bo then its not fair...

but in general YES


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

sparkle said:


> NO... if it caused legal hassle for t-bo then its not fair...
> 
> but in general YES


If it caused legal hassle for T-bo i would agree NO, but if done correctly i dont see how it can.
There is plenty of consumer review sites already, and i know at least one forum that can.


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## michellexx (Jan 13, 2007)

I voted yes but only with proof.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Personally, I think people have a right to know if people are going to rip them off/sell substandard animals etc. And vendor feedback does not have to be all negative, people can post positive experiences as well. All it would take is a bit of extra moderating to make sure that what is said is fact and not just petty slagging off.

Quite aside from the standpoint that the best way to stop many petshops keeping animals in bad health and conditions is to take away the buyers, not everyone knows when a herp looks healthy or how it is kept, so it is easy for beginners to get lumbered with animals that will never be 100% (if they survive at all).

Everyone on here (and other reptile forums) complains about the RSPCA and how useless they are and their relationship with the antis, but what option are people left with if we don't have the nads to try and police our own hobby in an attempt to get rid of the sellers and shops who are, when all is said and done, the examples that will be used by the RSPCA when they finally get to close our hobby down!


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Frogeye 1050 said:


> Following on from another thread, do you think it should be allowed on public forums?


No. Way too open to abuse from people that fall out with each other.

One post could ruin somebodies business and livelyhood.


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi all,

If it is the truth, you could send a letter or email and explain your problem.

Give the shop a chance to diagest it, if they then do not give a satifactory explanation, or take no action to sort the problem.

Yes then name and shame, if you have proof and it is the truth and have witnesses.

But it works both ways, if you go to a shop that is very good send the shop an email and tell of your experience.
Also post on here.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake:


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

I would love to be able to. I've seen some disgusting stuff today at a shop in Chelmsford and reported it to the rspca and will be contacting the council on monday (they didn't return my call today). The shop owner (who I know) wasn't there. I'm not messing around with this one, the tort in question needs out of that shop ASAP and probably would be euthanised TBH

Sadly I can't name it publically


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ratboy said:


> No. Way too open to abuse from people that fall out with each other.
> 
> One post could ruin somebodies business and livelyhood.


However, the Board of Inquiry seems to have a pretty good success rate - if I still lived in the States, I'd be researching any breeder I planned to buy sight-unseen from on there, to see if people were happy with what they'd bought.

It also has the facility to make "Good Guy" posts - which people actually DO - and you can even be nominated for a Good Guy Certificate that shows you have an exemplary record for dealing with your customers EVEN when things go wrong. 

And, of course, they require PROOF before a seller is really and truly slated - it's not "go on and accuse X of having Y disease in their collection to ruin their livelihood" ... unless you've got the vet records to show that the animal you bought tested for Y disease AND that you didn't have Y in your collection beforehand. It was this that rooted out someone three years back selling freshly CF royals as CB het for albino, pied, etc babies... thousands and thousands of dollars worth of snakes.

It works if it's regulated - and as I said, I think the Board of Inquiry has a ready-made regulation system. If you're DESPERATE to name and shame, go there and use their International board...


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

C_Strike said:


> Thtat doesnt make sense to me, lol
> The reason i would try to post names would be to help other people avoid the bad trader, i apreciate people posting their experiences with sellers/traders. Its nice to see a traders review. I mean a review, not a slagging contest just posts of personal experience, good and bad, to help peoples decisions. I personally am wiery of names i dont know, so many times the trader/ seller review on T-store has helped me make my decision, its so damn helpful.
> I recon there is going to be a damn big amount of scams that has taken place that need not have had, and a large sum have money having been transfered after reading through a trader review.
> TBH, T-store reviews are actually mostly positive and for confirmation of different names and sites. scammers tha know of the reviews tend not to frequent that site for fear of being blacklisted.


what i mean is that i've ran pubs for years - and word of mouth is the best way to advertise a business, it's also the best way to destroy a business.
i think it's up to the individual to do the reaserch on a breeder/shop, if the rep is good then great - go for it, if it's bad don't.

the only way you can get ripped off is if you lack the knowlege to reaserch what you are buying and from who - this makes the ignorance turn to anger and then we have kick off's in between shops and forum members and further ramifications of forum members fighting amounst forum members.

if there is a need to question shop / breeders then they should be contacted directly (most shops and reputable breeders have web sites, some have forums and all have e-mail). posting remarks and grading shops shouldn't be done on this forum - T_BO could be taken to the cleaners for it, which is where the forum rule came from.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

The question I have really is from the people that want to come home and slag off some shop on here... which will only serve to get t-bo in to trouble and get a 'virtual' lynch mob hyped up because they have not heard both sides of what has happened and 3-4 pages of 'Oh my god, that's shocking' comments but do not actually achieve anything.

How many actually say something to the shop owner or manager ? ... which might actually result in getting something done.


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## LouiseK (Mar 17, 2007)

Doesn't the line "opinions expressed on the forums are not necessarily the views and opinions of the website" cut out the risk of legal action?

My gut response was "name and shame with evidence", but after some thought if i could change my vote i think i would to "no, they might not be able to defend themselves". Things like forums can spread a lot of dirt really quickly.

I think it should go like this:
- Post pics of concerns without name but area etc just to check your not over-reacting and making an ass of yourself.
- Report to the shop owner
- Give time to respond and maybe rectify
- Report to the RSPCA and local council

You shouldn't complain if your not prepared to go all the way with it.

It is someones income and you have to give them the benefit of the doubt even if it appears to be cruel. I could make examples of common views that are generally seen as acceptable that i think are kinda cruel...


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

LouiseK said:


> Doesn't the line "opinions expressed on the forums are not necessarily the views and opinions of the website" cut out the risk of legal action?


 
in an ideal world where there is no "where there's blame, there's a claim" culture going on then yes. in our world- no.


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## candoia aspera (Mar 5, 2007)

ratboy said:


> The question I have really is from the people that want to come home and slag off some shop on here... which will only serve to get t-bo in to trouble and get a 'virtual' lynch mob hyped up because they have not heard both sides of what has happened and 3-4 pages of 'Oh my god, that's shocking' comments but do not actually achieve anything.
> 
> How many actually say something to the shop owner or manager ? ... which might actually result in getting something done.


 
my sentiments - exactly


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

my initial reaction was that we should be able to name shops where you have proof (photographic or other) that animals are suffering. but on further reflection should have said no, because most people on this forum know enough about their herps to see for themselves when a shop is bad and therefore not buy from them, the people who don't won't be here so pointless. after a recent thread where it came down to service, people are allowed to have bad days and this doesn't make it a bad shop, if people have a gripe it should be with the owners/managers directly (thats what i did recently) and the law suit possibility.


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

No sorry should not be named if you see a shed in a viv tell the shop if one has had a crap say something Then thay can do something about it there and then

I do not agree with kangaroo style courts, where everyone and his dog jumps on the bandwagon because someone has seen a dry water bowl or a shed in a viv OR WONT GIVE YOU DISCOUNT SO YOU LOOK FOR A REASON TO NAME AND SHAME. (WICH WONT BE THE FIRST TIME)
Iv seen a shop get a right pasting because he had a handful of baby boas in with a handful of baby royals and people was slating it down like it was a matter of life and death. And it was not needed. 

A lot of people try and throw stones just to get a extra post or to wedge there way in to one of those clicky groups of people that are on forums


SO I DISAGREE WITH NAMEING AND SHAMING......


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## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

So true Brian.

A mate of mine works part time in a rep shop and was telling me he can't believe some of the stuff people moan about .


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

any examples?


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

is it ok to name and shame people from the forum?
If i paid for something from a forum member and i didnt recieve the item could i then name the user to warn other users not to deal with the person? obviously after trying to accertain the reason for nor getting what had been paid for.
Oh and this is purely hyperthtical, no -one has ripped me off.: victory:


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

I think if someone does something sh*tty everyone should know.


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

DeanThorpe said:


> any examples?


Things like
6 Baby royals in one Viv they said not enough space
(Viv was 18D X 16H X 23W )

Buy live food in morning go round town go back to shop late noon complain it's dead (in December)

Frogs only had a XL exo terra water bowl in they said not enough water 
(Whites tree frogs)

Someone also might have a vendeta against that shop

A LITTLE BIT OF NOLAGE IS DANGEROUS TO SOME PEOPLE

THAT IS WHY I DISAGREE WITH NAMEING AND SHAMING......


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

LiamRatSnake said:


> I think if someone does something sh*tty everyone should know.


Iv been on this forum a few years now and 500 + posts and never told anybody that they are wrong before liam ( if thats your name if not sorry ) YOU ARE WRONG If someone as you say does something sh*tty you tell them. At what level will it become sh*tty when they over charge you a 10p or sell you a male as female or a snake has craped in its Viv every body is open to mistake and having a bad day so does that give you the right to go on forum and make his/her life a whole lot harder
Most shops I know off and shop staff will stand and talk if you have a problem with them talk to them.

If you don't like the way they are doing things stop going there don't give them your money

You can always go to the extremes and open your own shop and if they are that bad they wont last long

Sorry but this is how I feel......Brian


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

I voted no. It was a toughie, i really wanted to say yes, but like has been said previously it would be T-bo who lands in the crap for it (which totally sucks!)
If we had a system like the Board of Inquiry, or if we started to use the BOI, once UK sellers are established, you would know who to avoid simply by their absense from the list. There is an open forum for people to praise sellers that aren't on the list of 'Good Guys' so even new sellers have a chance.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

No option for 'All of the above' in the poll.

It's a double edged sword. On one hand I think that given the recent new legislation concerning care of our animals and potential new legislation the 'hobby' should be policing itself, before they begin to police it for us, and naming and shaming bad shops may help us weed out the bad apples. 
On the other hand I understand that bad reviews could be very damaging to a shops business, and that someone with an axe to grind could post malicious reviews.

Just playing Devils Advocate for the moment, why is ok to post reviews of movies etc., experiences of other outlets/onlne shopping experiences/e-bay members etc. but not ok to post reviews of reptile shops? And how do critics get away with posting bad reviews of restaurants, movies, books etc.?


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## STORMWALKER (Feb 18, 2010)

*Doesnt matter when your right*

Look at the problems we are having!
On one hand being praised on the other being had a go at!?!

Ok we had to let one customer down and it couldnt be avoided and we did all we could to sort it out and proved we arent lairs and yet we never had an apoligy??

Even though that well known viv bukider clearly stated he would aoligise if proven wrong!

He was sent the proof and recieved it and guess what all he did was have the moderator lock the thread!?!
No apoligy what a surprise!!?!!?

It has its place but people must realise that anything they post can be disproved and is also on places like google not just on forum!!!


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## cordylidae (Nov 2, 2008)

havent read the thread only if evidence can be provided as its not fair on t-bo to have problems due to one of us if you going to name and shame or think bad of a shop try talking to the owner of the shop first


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

STORMWALKER said:


> Look at the problems we are having!
> On one hand being praised on the other being had a go at!?!
> 
> Ok we had to let one customer down and it couldnt be avoided and we did all we could to sort it out and proved we arent lairs and yet we never had an apoligy??
> ...


No need to dig up prehistoric threads to continue making a point


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