# All keepers please read, this is very important......



## Khanidge

I do not know if this has reached here yet. *However this is serious. This is not an April fools.*

Below is a copied post from Chris Newman (chairman of the FBH) and a link to the original thread.

Please NO Negativity here. All Exotic Animal/invert keepers are in serious threat of loosing their rights....... and so are keen Gardeners.......

Kindest regards Dean Whitbread..... 

Vice Chairman of ERAC (Essex Reptile and Amphibian Club) And Member of IAC (Invicter Arachnid Club)


Threat to Reptile Keeping (split from Al's thread) - Page 4 - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum

Below is some information I have circulated to as many interested groups as I can, if other wish to circulate this information or post it on other forums please feel free to do so. 



Invasive Non-native Species Policy Discussions within the European Union

Dear all,

Discussions and preliminary consultations commenced midway through 2010 on the development of an EU policy on the issue of invasive or potentially invasive non-native (or alien) species – both plant and animal but from here onwards this summary will concentrate on animal-related concerns. Previous discussions had taken place between 2005-2010 but have become a lot more important because of the European
Union’s stated intent to enact some form of legislation on the issue as part of their commitments on biodiversity. A consultation – not well publicised – took place over the summer of 2010 and according to EU officials most respondents were British (both from the pro-keeping and pro-trade side and from the animal protectionist & animal rights side of the argument).

A stakeholder consultation meeting took place on 3rd September with attendance dominated by those opposed to animal-keeping and trade in animals. Although the legislation – likely to be either an EU Directive or Regulation – will consider aspects such as who pays for non-native species becoming established and how to eliminate or control species that have become invasive the biggest concern for animal keepers and animal traders is the area that will be covered by the Prevention Working Group.

The heavy area of dispute - not surprisingly – will be focused on whether the legislation should have white or black lists for import and for home possession/trade. Those opposed to animal keeping have strongly demanded the use of very restricted white lists (of species ‘proven’ by risk assessment not to present a potential invasive
species problem) with everything else banned. Those few on the Working Group supportive of animal keeping and trade have argued strongly in favour of a limited and focused black list that would require exemptions or licensing to import/keep/trade and everything else to be kept and traded.

It is clear that at least some Member States support the idea of the use of white lists which, if implimented, would be a disaster for those keeping and/or trading in non-native species. There are also several representatives of Member States who have indicated no great enthusiasm for white lists.

The other main threat – irrespective of whether white or black lists are used – is the EU’s consideration of whether or not the same lists should be used across all EU Member States or whether there could be separate lists by country or by biogeographic area. Having a single list for the entire EU would present keepers and traders with immense problems since clearly many more species could potentially become established in say the Canary Islands or Cyprus than could in Germany
or Finland. Hence a single unified list could easily see the prohibition of a species like the Corn Snake across all EU countries because it might be potentially invasive in southern European areas. 

The pro-keeping side of the equation have secured two positions on the Prevention Working Group but it is very important that keepers organizations from countries other than the UK start to actively lobby their Governments (the animal rights groups in several EU Member States were represented at the 3rd September consultation meeting but, noticeably, not the representatives of the equivalent animal-keeping
organizations).

DG-Environment on behalf of the European Commission expects to pull-together the recommendation and option documents from the three Working Groups in the summer of 2011. The consolidated document will then be put out for public comment and any revisions made with the intent of a final recommended document to be presented to the European Commission and Council of Ministers in late 2011 with legislation being enacted sometime in 2012.

This is in my view the single greatest threat to the keeping of reptiles and amphibians within the European Union that has ever emerged. Unless we, keepers, participate and represent our interests we face a very uncertain future!

Regards,

Chris Newman
Federation of British Herpetologists
Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade association

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 0044 (0) 23 8044 0999
Mobile 0044 (0) 7897 692060


Development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species:
European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity


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## Khanidge

I do not know if this has reached here yet. *However this is serious. This is not an April fools.*

Below is a copied post from Chris Newman (chairman of the FBH) and a link to the original thread.

Please NO Negativity here. All Exotic Animal/invert keepers are in serious threat of loosing their rights....... and so are keen Gardeners.......

Kindest regards Dean Whitbread..... 

Vice Chairman of ERAC (Essex Reptile and Amphibian Club) And Member of IAC (Invicter Arachnid Club)


Threat to Reptile Keeping (split from Al's thread) - Page 4 - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum

Below is some information I have circulated to as many interested groups as I can, if other wish to circulate this information or post it on other forums please feel free to do so. 



Invasive Non-native Species Policy Discussions within the European Union

Dear all,

Discussions and preliminary consultations commenced midway through 2010 on the development of an EU policy on the issue of invasive or potentially invasive non-native (or alien) species – both plant and animal but from here onwards this summary will concentrate on animal-related concerns. Previous discussions had taken place between 2005-2010 but have become a lot more important because of the European
Union’s stated intent to enact some form of legislation on the issue as part of their commitments on biodiversity. A consultation – not well publicised – took place over the summer of 2010 and according to EU officials most respondents were British (both from the pro-keeping and pro-trade side and from the animal protectionist & animal rights side of the argument).

A stakeholder consultation meeting took place on 3rd September with attendance dominated by those opposed to animal-keeping and trade in animals. Although the legislation – likely to be either an EU Directive or Regulation – will consider aspects such as who pays for non-native species becoming established and how to eliminate or control species that have become invasive the biggest concern for animal keepers and animal traders is the area that will be covered by the Prevention Working Group.

The heavy area of dispute - not surprisingly – will be focused on whether the legislation should have white or black lists for import and for home possession/trade. Those opposed to animal keeping have strongly demanded the use of very restricted white lists (of species ‘proven’ by risk assessment not to present a potential invasive
species problem) with everything else banned. Those few on the Working Group supportive of animal keeping and trade have argued strongly in favour of a limited and focused black list that would require exemptions or licensing to import/keep/trade and everything else to be kept and traded.

It is clear that at least some Member States support the idea of the use of white lists which, if implimented, would be a disaster for those keeping and/or trading in non-native species. There are also several representatives of Member States who have indicated no great enthusiasm for white lists.

The other main threat – irrespective of whether white or black lists are used – is the EU’s consideration of whether or not the same lists should be used across all EU Member States or whether there could be separate lists by country or by biogeographic area. Having a single list for the entire EU would present keepers and traders with immense problems since clearly many more species could potentially become established in say the Canary Islands or Cyprus than could in Germany
or Finland. Hence a single unified list could easily see the prohibition of a species like the Corn Snake across all EU countries because it might be potentially invasive in southern European areas. 

The pro-keeping side of the equation have secured two positions on the Prevention Working Group but it is very important that keepers organizations from countries other than the UK start to actively lobby their Governments (the animal rights groups in several EU Member States were represented at the 3rd September consultation meeting but, noticeably, not the representatives of the equivalent animal-keeping
organizations).

DG-Environment on behalf of the European Commission expects to pull-together the recommendation and option documents from the three Working Groups in the summer of 2011. The consolidated document will then be put out for public comment and any revisions made with the intent of a final recommended document to be presented to the European Commission and Council of Ministers in late 2011 with legislation being enacted sometime in 2012.

This is in my view the single greatest threat to the keeping of reptiles and amphibians within the European Union that has ever emerged. Unless we, keepers, participate and represent our interests we face a very uncertain future!

Regards,

Chris Newman
Federation of British Herpetologists
Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade association

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 0044 (0) 23 8044 0999
Mobile 0044 (0) 7897 692060


Development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species:
European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity


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## emmabee

thanks for posting that here too, ive posted it on another european forum to see if they know about it either.


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## SteFANNY162

Surely if this is true someone needs to start an online petition to keep it all going..!


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## shaunyboy

SteFANNY162 said:


> Surely if this is true someone needs to start an online petition to keep it all going..!


if chris newman tells you something mate its best to listen and take it as 100% true

chris has dedicated his life to stuff like this and is a man we can all trust regards our hobby

to the op
thanks for posting this its at times like these we can't sit back and bury our heads in the sand we must stand up for our rights to continue with our hobby

for those of you who don't know who chris newman is.....
Hi – Chris Newman 



cheers shaun


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## ryanr1987




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## angelgirls29

shaunyboy said:


> if chris newman tells you something mate its best to listen and take it as 100% true
> 
> chris has dedicated his life to stuff like this and is a man we can all trust regards our hobby
> 
> to the op
> thanks for posting this its at times like these we can't sit back and bury our heads in the sand we must stand up for our rights to continue with our hobby
> 
> cheers shaun


Not meaning to be a headless chicken but......
WHAT DO WE DO?????????


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## secretserpents

What is it theyre trying to do? are they trying to impose a ban on keeping reptiles? What can we do to prevent this from happening? is there a form which we can sign to stop this law being enforced? Thanks


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## shaunyboy

angelgirls29 said:


> Not meaning to be a headless chicken but......
> WHAT DO WE DO?????????



in my humble opinion we listen to what this man has to say and follow his reccommendations

Hi – Chris Newman 

all the best shaun


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## emmabee

this needs to be made into a sticky in every section.

what do we do? not a clue. i think the first port of call should be to publicise this so we can organise an on line petition and an actual petition at donny.


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## Tds79

If this goes ahead what is going to all the animals put on black list ? Think its asking for trouble as you will get some people who will just let them go. 
The amount of people this will effect doesnt bare thinking about. 
Anything else they want to stop people doing.


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## SteFANNY162

Right then people how do we go about
1) an official petition signed by everyone on here
& 2) even a meeting to show people how healthy & happy reptiles/animals are as pets & how captive bred pets are ment to live with people & wouldn't cope in the wild
God knows if this is possible but, hey ho!
I know I certainly will not be saying 'animals are better off dead than in captivity'


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## SteFANNY162

Tds79 said:


> If this goes ahead what is going to all the animals put on black list ? Think its asking for trouble as you will get some people who will just let them go.
> The amount of people this will effect doesnt bare thinking about.
> Anything else they want to stop people doing.


We wont be allowed plants in the house soon!


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## Salazare Slytherin

angelgirls29 said:


> Not meaning to be a headless chicken but......
> WHAT DO WE DO?????????


I would think we should have an online petition, I would start it but if I am honest I do not know how, as many people as possible on here should sign it along with other forums, this is a time in which hobbyists, enthusiasts e.t.c need to stop arguing amongst one another and stand by our interest!

if someone knows how to do this I am sure I and many others would appreciate it.


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## SteFANNY162

PetitionBuzz - Create New Petition


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## emmabee

this needs a sticky. people are just ignoring it!


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## shaunyboy

secretserpents said:


> What is it theyre trying to do? are they trying to impose a ban on keeping reptiles? What can we do to prevent this from happening? is there a form which we can sign to stop this law being enforced? Thanks



in laymens terms

they are worried about invasive species 

so say a snake can escape and survive in one of the warmer european country's then it gets banned.....

but it also gets banned from the uk where it CANNOT survive due to our colder climates just because we are members of the EU

so just because certain reptiles may survive in the wild in some places in europe it will also be banned from the uk ignoring the fact we have different climate

cheers shaun


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## Salazare Slytherin

emmabee said:


> this needs a sticky. people are just ignoring it!


agreed hit the report button I have seen a few like this today, I am sure a moderator would sticky it given the circumstances.
I have, see what comes of it.


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## Salazare Slytherin

shaunyboy said:


> in laymens terms
> 
> they are worried about invasive species
> 
> so say a snake can escape and survive in one of the warmer european country's then it gets banned.....
> 
> but it also gets banned from the uk where it CANNOT survive due to our colder climates just because we are members of the EU
> 
> so just because certain reptiles may survive in the wild in some places in europe it will also be banned from the uk ignoring the fact we have different climate
> 
> cheers shaun


pretty much, this thread needs stikied. same as in the other sections.


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## emmabee

Salazare Slytherin said:


> agreed hit the report button I have seen a few like this today, I am sure a moderator would sticky it given the circumstances.
> I have, see what comes of it.


if you use any other european forums post it on there too.


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## Salazare Slytherin

emmabee said:


> if you use any other european forums post it on there too.


I am on it as we speak.: victory:


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## angelgirls29

Is there any reason it wasn't put in Shelled?


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## SteFANNY162

Agreed stickie in all sections :2thumb:

:censor: the gits trying to ruin everything


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## ratboy

shaunyboy said:


> in laymens terms
> 
> they are worried about invasive species
> 
> so say a snake can escape and survive in one of the warmer european country's then it gets banned.....
> 
> but it also gets banned from the uk where it CANNOT survive due to our colder climates just because we are members of the EU
> 
> so just because certain reptiles may survive in the wild in some places in europe it will also be banned from the uk ignoring the fact we have different climate
> 
> cheers shaun


Many North American rat snake species ( including corn snakes ) can survive here as can most of the Asian species that brumate I suspect. In fact, I believe there are already 2 areas already populated by wild corns... I can't remember where though.

So potentially... Corn snakes could be on that list.


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## Tds79

If there is someone people can write to and voice concerns then everyone could write in mass. Petition is good way forward, emailing people and getting public figures on board if possible, as much as people moan about them companys like pets at home, exo terra etc they arent going to like losing all them customers.


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## Salazare Slytherin

SteFANNY162 said:


> Agreed stickie in all sections :2thumb:
> 
> :censor: the gits trying to ruin everything


the more the report button is hit the better.


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## secretserpents

Thanks for clearing that up for me! Id like to do something to help keep our reptiles but Im unsure how really, will there be a petition for us all to sign up on? Is there a way that we can stop this from happening to the UK?


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## paul890

hi all, the thing to remember is it clearly states invasive species? how many keep things that could become established in the uk? or the northen eu? restricting invasive species is a GOOD thing look at how many eco sytems have been destroyed from the introduction of a foregein predator? take are own freshwater crayfish nearly wiped out from the american signal? or japaneese knot weed destroying buildings and roads. There are also many islands whos bird life has been iradicated by the introduction of predators like snakes. there are two sides to every coin. paul


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## paul890

sorry had not finished that by the time shaun had posted clearing it up, a total ban is unacepable but im all for a restricted one


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## emmabee

ratboy said:


> Many North American rat snake species ( including corn snakes ) can survive here as can most of the Asian species that brumate I suspect. In fact, I believe there are already 2 areas already populated by wild corns... I can't remember where though.
> 
> So potentially... Corn snakes could be on that list.


 

i think you have missed the point. its any snake species that is not native that can survive in any country in europe.
it also is not just limited to snakes but any animal species!
check the link out to the original post


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## Freakinfreak

I don't care what's going on. All I know is that anyone stupid enough to be against an army of reptile and animal lovers is digging an early grave. They should practically go and dig a hole and sit in it themselves.

This week has been full of so much crap. If they were more concerned about killing people with their cigarettes than about people keeping animals then we'd have a lot more alive people and the money currently treating people from the concequences of smoking could be spent on preventing animal cruelty where it matters.

But, no. The government are greedy f:censor:ks who need to be stabbed repeatedly in their eyes with needles. Then shot in the face.

I'll sign anything you throw at me. Then I'll force everyone in my village to sign the petition. You name it, I'll do it. I am fed up of people dictating things and this needs to stop.


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## Iguanaquinn

Right so where is this petition??? 

Lets stop chatting about it and get it done!!


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## secretserpents

I only keep corns and royals at the moment, but I certianly do not want to be giving them up at all.


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## herpzane

This would also include all exotic mammals as well i assume as these can also be invasive. I dont think it will ever be carried forward. All our government will do is loose tax. "Invasive species" do not matter to the government as long as they can keep taxing us.


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## Salazare Slytherin

Iguanaquinn said:


> Right so where is this petition???
> 
> Lets stop chatting about it and get it done!!


make one dude, I dunno how:blush:


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## Salazare Slytherin

herpzane said:


> This would also include all exotic mammals as well i assume as these can also be invasive. I dont think it will ever be carried forward. All our government will do is loose tax. "Invasive species" do not matter to the government as long as they can keep taxing us.


possibly but I am not ready to just sit and hope for the best, it may also prevent something happening in the future!


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## Tombo46

Just a quick question. If reptiles were "banned" what would happen? Would they break into our homes. Seize out animals and "destroy" them?


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## Salazare Slytherin

angelgirls29 said:


> Is there any reason it wasn't put in Shelled?


I think it is just trying to quickly get the message out, the snake and lizard forums are usually the most active. 
post it on if you like.: victory:
The op probibly wont mind given the circumstances, also post on any forums you may use.


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## angelgirls29

Tombo46 said:


> Just a quick question. If reptiles were "banned" what would happen? Would they break into our homes. Seize out animals and "destroy" them?


From what I've just read you'll be able to keep them but not breed or sell them?
Can someone confirm it?


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## angelgirls29

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I think it is just trying to quickly get the message out, the snake and lizard forums are usually the most active.
> post it on if you like.: victory:
> The op probibly wont mind given the circumstances, also post on any forums you may use.


I don't think Milton Keynes hockey would be very interested 
And emmabee posted it : victory:


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## Salazare Slytherin

Tombo46 said:


> Just a quick question. If reptiles were "banned" what would happen? Would they break into our homes. Seize out animals and "destroy" them?


an interesting question I think if it ever did happen they would never be able to stop it at once, it would eventually be took out of the pet trade completely to make sure in time it would stop, laws would probibly be made to bann all breeding e.t.c and siv it out that way.


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## emmabee

secretserpents said:


> I only keep corns and royals at the moment, but I certianly do not want to be giving them up at all.


yep they would be included!



herpzane said:


> This would also include all exotic mammals as well i assume as these can also be invasive. I dont think it will ever be carried forward. All our government will do is loose tax. "Invasive species" do not matter to the government as long as they can keep taxing us.


i believe it is true of exotics too . its not up to our government but its an EU idea.
i am waiting for a little more info on what is included before i repost it to all the other sections!
cats should be included too.


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## Salazare Slytherin

angelgirls29 said:


> I don't think Milton Keynes hockey would be very interested
> And emmabee posted it : victory:


in my panic I did not notice and lol I mean animal forums.:no1:


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## ratboy

emmabee said:


> i think you have missed the point. its any snake species that is not native that can survive in any country in europe.
> it also is not just limited to snakes but any animal species!
> check the link out to the original post


I haven't missed the point at all... I was just pointing out that some pretty common snake species could survive in the UK which means they could almost certainly survive in other EU countries as we are one of the colder ones.

I kept it to snakes as this is the snake section.


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## Iguanaquinn

emmabee said:


> yep they would be included!
> 
> 
> 
> i believe it is true of exotics too . its not up to our government but its an EU idea.
> i am waiting for a little more info on what is included before i repost it to all the other sections!
> cats should be included too.



Cats!!! If they tried to ban me from keeping my Maine ***** I will go ballistic!! Another piece of badly thought legislation! Like the Dangerous Dogs act.... :censor: useless piece of legislation there! Perfectly safe dogs are still being destroyed because of it as well as dangerous one's!!!!

I am not sure how to get a petition started does anyone???


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## ratboy

Iguanaquinn said:


> Cats!!! If they tried to ban me from keeping my Maine ***** I will go ballistic!! Another piece of badly thought legislation! Like the Dangerous Dogs act.... :censor: useless piece of legislation there! Perfectly safe dogs are still being destroyed because of it as well as dangerous one's!!!!
> 
> I am not sure how to get a petition started does anyone???


I would think that Cats would potentially be a saving grace since it could be demanded that if our animals are banned then domestic cats must also be banned since they are not a native species. I would like to see anyone get that bit of legislation passed the British public.


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## Nicki_

Crazy?! :gasp:

Have I read this right? 

There is a possible chance that keeping non-native species in the UK could be stopped? 

It is just like keeping non-native cats, dogs and birds? 

There are too many animal keepers, hobbiests etc. out there that will object to the whole thing and there is no chance of any action being taken into consideration. 

I can't see anything coming of it as we all know, non-native animals have been introduced and captive bred in this country for decades, so why all of a sudden is it becoming a problem or should there be any concern of "invasion of the non-native species" lol.

I may have completely misread the whole thing but all this I have wrote is just a matter of opinion I suppose. :blush:

To me, it is like making alcohol illegal in this country? No chance.


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## Iguanaquinn

ratboy said:


> I would think that Cats would potentially be a saving grace since it could be demanded that if our animals are banned then domestic cats must also be banned since they are not a native species. I would like to see anyone get that bit of legislation passed the British public.


Aye i think that it would throw a :censor: storm..... I know I am throwing one in my living room right now :devil:


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## angelgirls29

If we don't speak out, they actually _could_ do this

And probably will...


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## Nicki_

There are millions of people to speak against it, reptile keeping is becoming as popular as owning a cat or a dog. 

They don't stand a chance on banning it, but may be able to restrict certain things such as breeding without a licence or buying without reptile keeping training lol.


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## angelgirls29

Nicki_ said:


> There are millions of people to speak against it, reptile keeping is becoming as popular as owning a cat or a dog.
> 
> They don't stand a chance on banning it, but may be able to restrict certain things such as breeding without a licence or buying without reptile keeping training lol.


They think we're the minority.
Just look at what the APA were doing a few months ago.

Most of the people at the meeting were Anti's.
So we need to stick up for the Pro-keepers, like ourselves.


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## Freakinfreak

How is a legislation passed, can anyone give me some more info?

What would it take for this law to be passed? Who would have to agree and put it through?


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## Salazare Slytherin

angelgirls29 said:


> If we don't speak out, they actually _could_ do this
> 
> And probably will...


 
agreed, I am not prepared to watch my lifes work go down the krap pan! 
I for one am not going to sit here and hope for the best, spread the word peeps.! 
I am sure we can stop it and it may stop it from happenig again in the future once they relise we are a huge community.


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## angelgirls29

Salazare Slytherin said:


> agreed, I am not prepared to watch my lifes work go down the krap pan!
> I for one am not going to sit here and hope for the best, spread the word peeps.!
> I am sure we can stop it and it may stop it from happenig again in the future once they relise we are a huge community.


Who can stick together when we need to : victory:


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## 12843

angelgirls29 said:


> From what I've just read you'll be able to keep them but not breed or sell them?
> Can someone confirm it?



I'd agree, but I'm not certain. If this genuine it would have been much better to wait until the am to post it. 24hours would make no difference to act, but would eliminate all reasonable doubt that this was a hokes (SP?).

Concerned if it is legit.


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## angelgirls29

Krispy1984 said:


> I'd agree, but I'm not certain, if this genuine it would have been much better to wait until the am to post it. 24hours would make no difference to act, but would eliminate all reasonable doubt that this was a hokes (SP?).
> 
> Concerned if it is legit.


I'm thinking because it came from Chris it is legit.
If it was from anyone else I wouldn't be so worried


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## lungz

Nicki_ said:


> Crazy?! :gasp:
> 
> 
> I can't see anything coming of it as we all know, non-native animals have been introduced and captive bred in this country for decades, so why all of a sudden is it becoming a problem or should there be any concern of "invasion of the non-native species" lol.


It reads to me like a Europe decision not strictly the UK and if it passes in europe, in theory we must confirm. 

I'm sure the european forums will be just as alight with conversation. Come the public consultation, come the revolution.....:lol2:


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## ratboy

Freakinfreak said:


> How is a legislation passed, can anyone give me some more info?
> 
> What would it take for this law to be passed? Who would have to agree and put it through?


If it's an EU law it would go through the European parliament. 

Headlines and latest news from the European Parliament


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## Salazare Slytherin

angelgirls29 said:


> Who can stick together when we need to : victory:


indeed:no1:
we can go back to arguing afterward! lols


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## MofuTofu

DIS IS MADNESS! :cussing:


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## Iguanaquinn

Freakinfreak said:


> How is a legislation passed, can anyone give me some more info?
> 
> What would it take for this law to be passed? Who would have to agree and put it through?


The EU would pass a directive and all member states of the EU would impose legislation on their home country.


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## Nicki_

Oh I will deffinately have an argumentative head on if anything comes of this!

I am the type of person who will have the last say in anything or everything whether I am right or wrong!

If we can't keep reptiles, then why should bird keepers keep birds or anybody keep non-native cats and dogs or horses even?

Prrfff, I will happily support reptile keeping until I am arrested! :no1:


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## lungz

Krispy1984 said:


> I'd agree, but I'm not certain. If this genuine it would have been much better to wait until the am to post it. 24hours would make no difference to act, but would eliminate all reasonable doubt that this was a hokes (SP?).
> 
> Concerned if it is legit.


The post in the original link is dated 31/03... If it's a hoax it's not an april fool.


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## DavieB

The bad thing here would be petshops would be the first to suffer, reps will still be bred but getting a hold of them will be through a network of contacts (illegally) then the biggest problem is what hapens when they get ill? do they become disposable? Do we guess whats wrong and order meds from abroad? 

Its a minefield and the government has to be very careful.


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## Salazare Slytherin

Nicki_ said:


> Oh I will deffinately have an argumentative head on if anything comes of this!
> 
> I am the type of person who will have the last say in anything or everything whether I am right or wrong!
> 
> If we can't keep reptiles, then why should bird keepers keep birds or anybody keep non-native cats and dogs or horses even?
> 
> Prrfff, I will happily support reptile keeping until I am arrested! :no1:


its everything none native, even cats and dogs up to a point!:devil::censor:
be sure to let those good shops in the northeast know Nicki although it wont suprise me if they dont already.


----------



## Nicki_

This means war...:devil:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Nicki_ said:


> This means war...:devil:


your not lieing there either! they think we are a small comunity, they are in for a suprise methinks:whistling2:
as soon as a petition is made for all keepers, cat snake,lizard, spiders or oherwise none native they wont know what hit them.


----------



## Freakinfreak

Would dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, gerbils, mice, rats, horses, etc be put under this too?

If dogs are, the French will go ballistic and throw frogs at their parliament. 
If horses are, the Germans will throw sausages at their parliament.
If birds are, the Spanish will shit on the heads of their parliament.

I hate most laws. I hate the government more. They're so full of ego and crap, forced smiles that they should be boiled in a vat of acid and served to our snakes.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

DavieB said:


> The bad thing here would be petshops would be the first to suffer, reps will still be bred but getting a hold of them will be through a network of contacts (illegally) then the biggest problem is what hapens when they get ill? do they become disposable? Do we guess whats wrong and order meds from abroad?
> 
> Its a minefield and the government has to be very careful.


This is true matey, and to be fair, some pet shops specialize only in exotics! which means they will be left jobless :devil: that is the last thing we need at the minute too.


----------



## angelgirls29

Billy-no-mates me knows at least 5 people (non-RFUKers) so I think there may be MANY more :whistling2:


----------



## punky_jen

Freakinfreak said:


> Would dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, gerbils, mice, rats, horses, etc be put under this too?
> 
> If dogs are, the French will go ballistic and throw frogs at their parliament.
> If horses are, the Germans will throw sausages at their parliament.
> If birds are, the Spanish will shit on the heads of their parliament.
> 
> I hate most laws. I hate the government more. They're so full of ego and crap, forced smiles that they should be boiled in a vat of acid and served to our snakes.


I love this post.

Seriously though, im in for the fight, il do whatever I can, just point me in the direction


----------



## RedGex

Well I have to say this has me worried, the way I see it is its all well and good signing a petition but it is useless unless it gets to the right people.
I have emailed Chris Newman to try and establish the best course of action, as I figured he was best placed to give us ammunition and ensure it reaches the most relevant audience.

As soon as I have a reply I will let you know and then we can take it from there.

Regards


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

angelgirls29 said:


> Billy-no-mates me knows at least 5 people (non-RFUKers) so I think there may be MANY more :whistling2:


Ditto this hobby or enthusiasm has grown ALOT! and is more common becuase of the hard work and dedication put into it!:gasp:
the rspca nearly did a similar thing, they nearly stopped the pet trade completely, the only thing that stopped it was an mp rose up and said hang on people will be left jobless, but they nearly succeeeded:censor:
and people dont relise the damage they do:censor::censor::censor:


----------



## angelgirls29

RedGex said:


> Well I have to say this has me worried, the way I see it is its all well and good signing a petition but it is useless unless it gets to the right people.
> I have emailed Chris Newman to try and establish the best course of action, as I figured he was best placed to give us ammunition and ensure it reaches the most relevant audience.
> 
> As soon as I have a reply I will let you know and then we can take it from there.
> 
> Regards


I, too, am awaiting information from Chris.
If we all sort little petitions we may be wasting our time.
Whereas if we all signed one big one and got it OUT THERE (In the big wide internet) it would get more people : victory:


----------



## 12843

How would this effect the likes of zoos and farms if at all?

Not good.


----------



## angelgirls29

I think I shall invite mine round for a chat :whistling2:
Then he can meet Storm..... Everyone loves Storm (the gecko).....


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Krispy1984 said:


> How would this effect the likes of zoos and farms if at all?
> 
> Not good.


not sure? but that is lickely to be another threat!


----------



## Gaboon

*A thought on longterm repercussions for tropical species*

The fundamental error with this proposal as far as claiming it to be a conservation initiative is the idea of treating any organism with the potential to establish itself in one region of the EU with the same restrictions demographically throughout the EU. On another thread Chris N told me the thinking is that trade within the EU may result in a species finding its way to a region where it is indeed potentially invasive, should it escape or be let free. This may effect any species crudely assumed to be a potential invasive species within the same latitude (perhaps even the southern hemisphere) of the EU boarders, ie. temperate species. 

If this is true then maybe tropical species will become under higher demand? Which brings with it it concerns... what will the longterm effects be on currently less popular tropical species? The diversity of tropical species currently captive bred in any numbers is not as comparable to established captive temperate species populations. So the demand for diversity may equate to an increase in demand for imports from the tropics? 

Surely if this was a considered conservation effort it would make more longterm sense to just police the EU boarders efficiently and therefore take off any pressure from tropical species that don't have the same potential for ecological disruption in any of the EU?


----------



## Nicki_

Ooo hey, I am really :censor::censor: with the thought of this! 

I am going for a tab and when I come back, I hope to see another 7 pages full with people agreeing to go to war with me. :2thumb: 

I am going to go bazooka on this :censor: and find the anti-non-native-animal protesters and steal their cars...

NOT A HAPPY BUNNY!!!!!


----------



## RedGex

angelgirls29 said:


> I, too, am awaiting information from Chris.
> If we all sort little petitions we may be wasting our time.
> Whereas if we all signed one big one and got it OUT THERE (In the big wide internet) it would get more people : victory:


this is very true, all the people in world can sign it but we really need to make sure the right people see it or it will still be a waste of time,
probably best to get it to every government in the EU for starters
I don't know if it will be allowed but maybe a table at donny show with some info on the proposed legislation and an opportunity to sign something there would be good. there are a lot of people visiting there who have never heard of RFUK but i am sure would be more than willing to sign petition or similar.


----------



## trogdorable

i vote we head to the streets and protest when they have their silly meeting:gasp:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Nicki_ said:


> Ooo hey, I am really :censor::censor: with the thought of this!
> 
> I am going for a tab and when I come back, I hope to see another 7 pages full with people agreeing to go to war with me. :2thumb:
> 
> I am going to go bazooka on this :censor: and find the anti-non-native-animal protesters and steal their cars...
> 
> NOT A HAPPY BUNNY!!!!!


 
I am going for a ***, someone has emaile chris Newman to see what our best form of ammunition is, THIS IS :censor: WAR !:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:


----------



## angelgirls29

trogdorable said:


> i vote we head to the streets and protest when they have their silly meeting:gasp:


Waiting to hear back from Chris Newman as to what to do : victory:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

trogdorable said:


> i vote we head to the streets and protest when they have their silly meeting:gasp:


Protest! I think we need to throw a brick off him but reaslisticly I am in: victory:


----------



## OlyFroggyBoy

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I am going for a ***, someone has emaile chris Newman to see what our best form of ammunition is, THIS IS :censor: WAR !:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:


AGREED !! :blowup:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

I am not going to sleep now! 
:censor::devil::censor: is there anything we are actually ALLOWED TO DO!
I am really wanting to buy my pown Island!
all enthusiasts are welcome to come.


----------



## angelgirls29

Gaboon said:


> The fundamental error with this proposal as far as claiming it to be a conservation initiative is the idea of treating any organism with the potential to establish itself in one region of the EU with the same restrictions demographically throughout the EU. On another thread Chris N told me the thinking is that trade within the EU may result in a species finding its way to a region where it is indeed potentially invasive, should it escape or be let free. This may effect any species crudely assumed to be a potential invasive species within the same latitude (perhaps even the southern hemisphere) of the EU boarders, ie. temperate species.
> 
> If this is true then maybe tropical species will become under higher demand? Which brings with it it concerns... what will the longterm effects be on currently less popular tropical species? The diversity of tropical species currently captive bred in any numbers is not as comparable to established captive temperate species populations. So the demand for diversity may equate to an increase in demand for imports from the tropics?
> 
> Surely if this was a considered conservation effort it would make more longterm sense to just police the EU boarders efficiently and therefore take off any pressure from tropical species that don't have the same potential for ecological disruption in any of the EU?


This is also a problem. If people go and get less-common snakes (which will have more complex requirements because of the geographical location/temperature/humidity etc) this could impact on the hobby as there will be no 'easy' reptile to care for for people who want to get started.
In my opinion.


----------



## Nicki_

What we should do is type a petition and make a copy of it on here for us all to print off so we can get as many signitures as we can to appeal against all this.

Just think, one person on here alone can get at least 100 signitures from family and friends alone, not including people you know who own reptiles as you can give them a petition to do themselves!

THAT will show exactly how many people are for and against this situation.


----------



## ratboy

If I have to give mine up ( and they could all survive somewhere in the EU ) that will be that. I certainly would not be getting anything else.

The hobby has been under threat since I took it up 13 years ago from one place or another and I've had enough TBH.


----------



## Nicki_

OlyFroggyBoy said:


> AGREED !! :blowup:


Haha, we are all stood outside this moment smoking and raging!


----------



## angelgirls29

Nicki_ said:


> What we should do is type a petition and make a copy of it on here for us all to print off so we can get as many signitures as we can to appeal against all this.
> 
> Just think, one person on here alone can get at least 100 signitures from family and friends alone, not including people you know who own reptiles as you can give them a petition to do themselves!
> 
> THAT will show exactly how many people are for and against this situation.


As just said on the snake thread - it would be better to have ONE organised petition rather than 100s of smaller petitions and not know where to send them : victory:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Nicki_ said:


> What we should do is type a petition and make a copy of it on here for us all to print off so we can get as many signitures as we can to appeal against all this.
> 
> Just think, one person on here alone can get at least 100 signitures from family and friends alone, not including people you know who own reptiles as you can give them a petition to do themselves!
> 
> THAT will show exactly how many people are for and against this situation.


a petition is useless if it reaches the wrong hands, we need to tread carefully.


----------



## angelgirls29

Nicki_ said:


> Haha, we are all stood outside this moment smoking and raging!


Sorry :blush:
I went out about 5mins ago... will you tell me when the next break is :lol2:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Nicki_ said:


> Haha, we are all stood outside this moment smoking and raging!


I am on my second:whip:


----------



## MrsRed

Not sure why I got stuck in italics halfway down the post, but my apololgies. 

I've just finished reading the entire framework strategy document available here: https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/*nonnativespecies*/downloadDocument.cfm?

According to the document, Great Britain would actually be annexed (as would several other areas of the EU) and have set up their own Non-Native Species Programme Board which only covers GB ecosystems and climate and wouldn't be subject to the rulings of other Programme Boards. 

It also says that they're not interested in species which have already been introduced, the phrase used is "prevention is better than cure" so it doesn't sounds as though anyone will be forced to get rid of existing pets or houseplants, but there will be tougher restrictions on import and export as a result. 

The report also says that this is only the framework structure phase and they are still working with the Uk Biodiversity Action Planning group to assess the impact of the programme on the biodiversity conservation programme. 

It's also worth noting that this is not a new thing, the programme board and framework set-up have been established since 2005. They're still talking about how they are going to set up a strategy so they haven't even planned how they're going to start planning to plan yet. 

I think I'll wait until someone actually starts trying to pass legislation before I get too upset.


----------



## naz

well reading this has just mad my really bad day 1000 times worse, really worried now


----------



## Nicki_

angelgirls29 said:


> Sorry :blush:
> I went out about 5mins ago... will you tell me when the next break is :lol2:


Lmfao! I am going for another one now I am that mad :lol2:

We could organise a way of sending our petitions to someone on here who has a better idea on where to send them as I am sure them alone could be a massive help.

It will give us a good idea on the number of people who are going to fight this battle!


----------



## seanw21

soon as any one knows what to do let me in! i can get a fair few people to stand behind us


----------



## leptophis

couldnt agree more steve, remember the cviewdays when it was iminent, i have been listening same as you, i am guessing new keepers will be worried,


----------



## xx-SAVANNAH-xx

ratboy said:


> If I have to give mine up ( and they could all survive somewhere in the EU ) that will be that. I certainly would not be getting anything else.
> 
> The hobby has been under threat since I took it up 13 years ago from one place or another and I've had enough TBH.


no one is going to make me give up my reps id like to see someone try what are they going to do come in my house and take them id like to see that. This country is beyond a joke power mad people always trying to control everything.


----------



## _jake_

They wont ban reptile keeping. They may bring in more regulations like the Pet Animals Act, Dangerous Wild Animal ect but the government wont at this time ban keeping, it would cost them millions. It wont just include reptiles, amphibians and Inverts but tropical fish species, plants ect. I wouldn't be too worried about it.


----------



## Gaboon

angelgirls29 said:


> This is also a problem. If people go and get less-common snakes (which will have more complex requirements because of the geographical location/temperature/humidity etc) this could impact on the hobby as there will be no 'easy' reptile to care for for people who want to get started.
> In my opinion.





ratboy said:


> If I have to give mine up ( and they could all survive somewhere in the EU ) that will be that. I certainly would not be getting anything else.
> 
> The hobby has been under threat since I took it up 13 years ago from one place or another and I've had enough TBH.


I don't see why the hobby could not continue but with non-potentially invasive species. This is assuming all non-natives are not restricted.


----------



## OlyFroggyBoy

_jake_ said:


> They wont ban reptile keeping. They may bring in more regulations like the Pet Animals Act, Dangerous Wild Animal ect but the government wont at this time ban keeping, it would cost them millions. It wont just include reptiles, amphibians and Inverts but tropical fish species, plants ect. I wouldn't be too worried about it.


And jake saves the day


----------



## ratboy

Gaboon said:


> I don't see why the hobby could not continue but with non-potentially invasive species. This is assuming all non-natives are not restricted.


It could, I was just saying that I wouldn't. My love is rat snakes and they would all be on an invasive species list.


----------



## naz

will they really come in and take them


----------



## Nicki_

I can imagine the conversation on this thread is that exactly the same on the lizard thread but without reading through the same thing on here, I gather someone has already mentioned making a petition?

I think a petition should deffinately be made. A copy of it should be stickied on the forum or something for us all to print off and get to work on.

I alone can get at least 50 signitures against all this, imagine what all of us could get if we all done it.

The worry is, where would we send completed petitions?

Could someone on here who has a better idea on how to go about objecting against all this be of any help on taking on all our petitions to send away.

I am sure if we all put a little extra money in towards having them sent away.

I really think this could help?


----------



## ratboy

leptophis said:


> couldnt agree more steve, remember the cviewdays when it was iminent, i have been listening same as you, i am guessing new keepers will be worried,


Yeah Pete. We've had Animal Aid, RSPCA, APA, DEFRA and now the EU.


----------



## angelgirls29

Has anyone read this?

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html


----------



## ghostcornsnake

ratboy said:


> Yeah Pete. We've had Animal Aid, RSPCA, APA, DEFRA and now the EU.[/QUOTE
> 
> dont whant to state the ovious again but where as people have said can we sighn a petition and where do we send them.
> 
> we need all people efected exotic birds fish reptiles mamals to all sighn this i can get over 30 people to sighn that i know we realy need more info.


----------



## Gaboon

ratboy said:


> It could, I was just saying that I wouldn't. My love is rat snakes and they would all be on an invasive species list.


This is all hypothetical, my original point was that longterm affects on non-potential invasive species could undermine any conservation motive behind the proposal. There are plenty of species that will simply not have a chance in hell of surviving any EU climate, I suspect a few "ratsnakes" are among them, unless your referring to a specific family or genus?


----------



## angelgirls29

Main thread:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

OlyFroggyBoy said:


> And jake saves the day


its not the point of if they do or dont its the principal they are going to try and discourage! a hobby that has worked extremely hard to get it where it is! 
IS THERE ANYTHING WE ARE GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO DO! :censor:


----------



## OlyFroggyBoy

Salazare Slytherin said:


> its not the point of if they do or dont its the principal they are going to try and discourage! a hobby that has worked extremely hard to get it where it is!
> IS THERE ANYTHING WE ARE GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO DO! :censor:


Yea even if they dont ban it they will put something in place. B:censor:S


----------



## angelgirls29

Unfortunately they want something in place by 2012...

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

angelgirls29 said:


> Main thread:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html


arggggg:devil: I am just getting madder and madder:censor:


----------



## Khanidge

For Starters I am very glad that this has been made a Sticky, My thanks to the Moderator.
Secondly thank you all for your input ( some made me chuckle :blush

But this is a very serious matter. And at a political level must be handled with great care, So I for one, am very glad that Chris and his team are handling this. However Chris has stated that he will advise us to the best plan of action. 
That is where we all come in.

1st port of call........

*COPY AND PASTE THE OP, PASTE IT TO EVERY FORUM, SHOP WEBSITE, FACEBOOK, TWITTER, MYSPACE, EMAIL ADDRESS YOU HAVE LISTED, ADD THE LINK TO HERE, CAPTIVEBRED ECT ECT ECT ECT....... * 

lets get as many keepers in Europe aware of the dangers that we are facing.
If a petition is needed lets allow Chris and his team to devise an official one.

The other thing that is needed is funding. The anti's have plenty. Lets give our team more to help the fight. Join the affiliated Clubs even if you don't go to the meetings, Donation's from these membership's go towards the FBH...
I am going to donate a large percentage of my sale's from the ERAC shows and Kempton Park this year to them.

This is how to help until we are told what the next move shale be....

Kindest Regards Dean Whitbread...... Vice-Chairman of ERAC (Essex reptile and Amphibian Club)


----------



## Ssthisto

_jake_ said:


> They wont ban reptile keeping. They may bring in more regulations like the Pet Animals Act, Dangerous Wild Animal ect but the government wont at this time ban keeping, it would cost them millions. It wont just include reptiles, amphibians and Inverts but tropical fish species, plants ect. I wouldn't be too worried about it.


They don't have to ban reptile _keeping_.

All they have to do is make it prohibitively expensive to breed your reptiles - either by requiring a licence or banning the breeding entirely.... 

And their problem is solved in the long run, if their goal is "no potentially invasive species".


----------



## Dragon Wolf

No way i'm giving up my animals, they'll have to shoot me first and i'm quite prepared to die for my animals if it comes to it!


----------



## Molly75

I think we all really need to get our heads together on this one as this poses a very real threat. I have many colubrids which are bred so raises issues on both criteria for myself.

Infact it affects so many theres no real way to police things what will happen to all the surplus hatchlings at shops traders and private breeders? Its not right or called for to simply cull thouands of healthy baby snakes? not forgetting those adults which serve as pets, but many breed to help with the upkeep as we all know keeping herps is getting more expensive by the week.

I believe the way forward is to educate and get seen and heard by the correct authorities or all the propaganda the law is raising will be useless.

Maybe petitions could be signed on entering all reptile related events, signing at shops, traders and Clubs
I'll also be seeing how Herpers in the EU excluding the UK are looking to go forward. I know I'll be looking to speak to my Euro friends to obtain some information this weekend.

I'll be doing all I can to raise awareness as I've had my herps to long and I'm far from ready to give up without a fight.

We have a very long way to go to beat this rule, but working as one I really believe we can.

Paula


----------



## emmabee

ratboy said:


> I would think that Cats would potentially be a saving grace since it could be demanded that if our animals are banned then domestic cats must also be banned since they are not a native species. I would like to see anyone get that bit of legislation passed the British public.


ok sorry for that bit of info! 
i know chris has stated that cats wouldnt be likely to be included! and its for the exact reason you state! the public will go mental. however if all of us with exotic animals, fish, birds and even plants dont unite the restrictions that come in will wipe out this hobby.

got your attention though didnt it!



ratboy said:


> Yeah Pete. We've had Animal Aid, RSPCA, APA, DEFRA and now the EU.


how much more can we fight off?


----------



## Nicki_

I have just littered facebook with this...

SPREAD THE WORD PEOPLE!


----------



## naz

so basically it will be every reptile we own, im finding this hard to understand sorry:blush:


----------



## lungz

*Invasive species are a serious issue*

While we're all having our smokes and thinking of the best way to rebel against this we need to remember one thing...

Before I start however, let me make this clear. I am in full support of the pet trade and the hobby in all its guises and in no way wish to see any restrictions. 
I am not an expert in the field of invasive species and I don't know the ins and outs of the european discussions and am in no way an expert on politics........... 

The "policy" discussions that have kicked off this thread are built on a very serious issue. That of potentially invasive species. This is not limited to the pet trade. It is a very serious issue for Europe as a continent and, as recent evidence has shown, the UK itself. 

Without the information at hand, I'll ask anyone who's willing to google the cute and cudley Harliquin Ladybird. This small, unassuming insect was introduced in or around the '90s by the gardening and flower industry as a means of controlling garden pests. As a result, the majority of Britains 7 or so native species of ladybird are now underthreat through predation among other things, by the larger, greedier harlequin. The situation is begining to look ever more serious as some of our species are now under threat of complete extinction if the situation does not improve. 

Other native species such as the grey squirrel (responsible for the demise of the icreasingly rare red squirrel) and Mink (which can wipe out the slowly returning Water Vole) are just 2 more examples of how dangerous non native species can become. I'm sure there are plenty more examples in the UK alone not to mention the likes of Australia etc etc etc. 

While we prepare ourselves for direct action and pull out the plackards (sp) for a march on parliament lets try and remember that the best outcome here is a "change" in the proposals to prevent the outlawing of exotic pets of all knds and not the complete destruction of the valid argument that has kicked off the European discussions. 

Imagine the outcry if the alpine newt was accidently introduced to the point that our 3 UK newt species could never be seen again. Or an introduced species of snakle or lizard destroyed the humble Adder or Slowworm. 

I will march on parliament to prevent this, but I will fully support the ideology of invasive species prevention just as vehemently.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Nicki_ said:


> I have just littered facebook with this...
> 
> SPREAD THE WORD PEOPLE!


I have on as many forums as I use and am able, I too have also posted on facebook.



lungz said:


> While we're all having our smokes and thinking of the best way to rebel against this we need to remember one thing...
> 
> Before I start however, let me make this clear. I am in full support of the pet trade and the hobby in all its guises and in no way wish to see any restrictions.
> I am not an expert in the field of invasive species and I don't know the ins and outs of the european discussions and am in no way an expert on politics...........
> 
> The "policy" discussions that have kicked off this thread are built on a very serious issue. That of potentially invasive species. This is not limited to the pet trade. It is a very serious issue for Europe as a continent and, as recent evidence has shown, the UK itself.
> 
> Without the information at hand, I'll ask anyone who's willing to google the cute and cudley Harliquin Ladybird. This small, unassuming insect was introduced in or around the '90s by the gardening and flower industry as a means of controlling garden pests. As a result, the majority of Britains 7 or so native species of ladybird are now underthreat through predation among other things, by the larger, greedier harlequin. The situation is begining to look ever more serious as some of our species are now under threat of complete extinction if the situation does not improve.
> 
> Other native species such as the grey squirrel (responsible for the demise of the icreasingly rare red squirrel) and Mink (which can wipe out the slowly returning Water Vole) are just 2 more examples of how dangerous non native species can become. I'm sure there are plenty more examples in the UK alone not to mention the likes of Australia etc etc etc.
> 
> While we prepare ourselves for direct action and pull out the plackards (sp) for a march on parliament lets try and remember that the best outcome here is a "change" in the proposals to prevent the outlawing of exotic pets of all knds and not the complete destruction of the valid argument that has kicked off the European discussions.
> 
> Imagine the outcry if the alpine newt was accidently introduced to the point that our 3 UK newt species could never be seen again. Or an introduced species of snakle or lizard destroyed the humble Adder or Slowworm.
> 
> *I will march on parliament to prevent this, but I will fully support the ideology of invasive species prevent just as vehemently*.


to be fair yes I can agree with this, it comes into the category of being responsible rather than being an idiot! (to be fair no one ditches there animals on purpose) knowing they can be sold for the right price unless they are completey demorilised.


----------



## Molly75

Going to be a bit controversial here but maybe the reason things are not moving forward to unite us is the internet? 

After all how many people have come on asking who is Chris Newman? seeing as he does so much good work for the hobby to keep it together as we know it today.

He's helped me when I've had a major issue crop up and I thank him for that.

If people can get to clubs join up and attended any events that come up not just the reptile sale events, as the more people can put faces to names the more real things will become rather than a name on a PC.

Thanks for reading 
Paula


----------



## emmabee

naz said:


> so basically it will be every reptile we own, im finding this hard to understand sorry:blush:


its not just limited to reptiles but to every non native species that can establish itself in the EU countries , if it was relaesed or escaped into the eild and poses a threat to native species and ecosystems. also includes plants!

which are included hasnt been decided and how its done hasnt either. thats why we need to do something now.


----------



## trogdorable

lungz i fullheartedly agree!
the numerous species that have been introduced on purpose without much thought for the consequences is ridiculous. the harlequin ladybird is a perfect example.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

I have posted on as many forums as I am able, I have also posted on my facebook and emailed some freinds to take a look.
I am afraid that is all I can do, as soon as we get some ammunition though of how to fight this be ready everyone.: victory:


----------



## Python_Regius

Hey Peeps, Ive created a petition - even if this doesnt happen, DO we want to risk this i dont think so please show your support : http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...-petition-keep-keeping-herps.html#post8040830


----------



## JustJack

So they are trying to ban us having reptiles?!
What will they do with all of the animals we cant have then? Surely it would cost alot money to get rid off all Europes reptiles!
I am not giving up any of my reptiles!!!!!!


----------



## emmabee

Molly75 said:


> I think we all really need to get our heads together on this one as this poses a very real threat. I have many colubrids which are bred so raises issues on both criteria for myself.
> 
> Infact it affects so many theres no real way to police things what will happen to all the surplus hatchlings at shops traders and private breeders? Its not right or called for to simply cull thouands of healthy baby snakes? not forgetting those adults which serve as pets, but many breed to help with the upkeep as we all know keeping herps is getting more expensive by the week.
> 
> I believe the way forward is to educate and get seen and heard by the correct authorities or all the propaganda the law is raising will be useless.
> 
> Maybe petitions could be signed on entering all reptile related events, signing at shops, traders and Clubs
> I'll also be seeing how Herpers in the EU excluding the UK are looking to go forward. I know I'll be looking to speak to my Euro friends to obtain some information this weekend.
> 
> I'll be doing all I can to raise awareness as I've had my herps to long and I'm far from ready to give up without a fight.
> 
> We have a very long way to go to beat this rule, but working as one I really believe we can.
> 
> Paula


really good post molly. are you off to houten?
would be good to get a european perspective on this issue and see what they are doing about it too. 
if the whole community not just the UK one unite then we stand a better chance.
think we all need to see what chris has planned for us to show our support!


----------



## Tds79

Tv would possibly be a good way forward, after all pretty much every one owns one, and lets be honesta fair few exotic keepers dont use forums so it could be a good way of reaching those that dont. Newspapers aswell, any famous exotic keepers on board would be a good way forward . . . . People tend to listen more when its a well known face.


----------



## ratboy

Tds79 said:


> Tv would possibly be a good way forward, after all pretty much every one owns one, and lets be honesta fair few exotic keepers dont use forums so it could be a good way of reaching those that dont. Newspapers aswell, any famous exotic keepers on board would be a good way forward . . . . People tend to listen more when its a well known face.


I hope you have a VERY fat wallet for that !!!


----------



## Tds79

You dont always need money . . . . Example someone is currently fighting the dda, they have snopp dog on board its cost nothing he is doing it because his love of pits. 
It may not work but isnt it worth a try rather than doing nothing and giving all your exotics up.


----------



## EmmaLock

Right, 

I know this will have to be dealt with sensibly and not through ranting and raving at those trying to impose a ban. We should band together to show off the joys snakes are when kept responsibly. Im sure if enough of us speak out everywhere we can stop this. 

However! *IF* any law *is* passed where keeping reptiles is banned, even after peaceful protests and petitions, I *will *shoot the knee caps off of anyone who trys to take away my animals. 

That is all. :2thumb:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Emzylock said:


> Right,
> 
> I know this will have to be dealt with sensibly and not through ranting and raving at those trying to impose a ban. We should band together to show off the joys snakes are when kept responsibly. Im sure if enough of us speak out everywhere we can stop this.
> 
> However! *IF* any law *is* passed where keeping reptiles is banned, even after peaceful protests and petitions, I *will *shoot the knee caps off of anyone who trys to take away my animals.
> 
> That is all. :2thumb:


I like the sound of the last part but yeah lets do the first part first,
a time to stop arguing people, we can get back to that another time.


----------



## naz

i didnt realise we were in the eu we dont use euros please dont think im stupid im just really worried and confused


----------



## Tds79

From what i understand those that own the blacklisted animals would be allowed to keep them, however they would not be allowed to breed them. Sell them or even give them away. . . So kinda like the dda and we all know how well that works :whistling2:


----------



## herpzane

I really wouldnt want any of my reptiles taken away but are we not jumping to any conclusions here? This is all just talk. No decisions have been made!...........And look at this way, lots of things have been Banned but did that ever stop anyone?


----------



## Molly75

emmabee said:


> really good post molly. are you off to houten?
> would be good to get a european perspective on this issue and see what they are doing about it too.
> if the whole community not just the UK one unite then we stand a better chance.
> think we all need to see what chris has planned for us to show our support!



Thankyou, that a kind thing to say  I am off to Houten and as most my breeders friends are Colubrid breeders on a large scale it will be of interest to hear their thoughts.

Those of us who have booked tables at Shows can help with petitions and raise awareness as well as at educational events, I'll be at one on the 10th April.

I'll also speak to friends to see if we could maybe have petitions as the Euro events as many of UK traders have tables.

Its a big ask but affects us all, I used to do public speaking for a living so I'm more than willing to step up and help as much as I can as this is not only my hobby but a passion which has taken up most of my life, if we can all portray that passion and responsibility surely we have a fighting chance.


----------



## ratboy

Emzylock said:


> Right,
> 
> I know this will have to be dealt with sensibly and not through ranting and raving at those trying to impose a ban. We should band together to show off the joys snakes are when kept responsibly. Im sure if enough of us speak out everywhere we can stop this.


The point is that the joy of keeping them is not in question. 

The issue is simply if the animals escaped then could they survive and breed in the wild anywhere in Europe, if they can then they pose a potential threat to the natural wildlife and ecosystems of that area and will therefore be put on the list of invasive species. 

I seriously doubt that the powers that be will do house to house searches for these animals ... imagine the cost of doing so !!! But imports would certainly be banned and I expect that shows would be policed looking for the species in question thereby making them impossible to breed and sell.

Obviously I am just guessing here... but it is the way I would do it and it seems to be what has basically happened with species on the EPS list.


----------



## angelgirls29

I do agree, however they're assuming we're being irresponsible and LETTING our reps escape... I, personally, wouldn't let my leo free roam :whistling2:

As far as I can see, they're assuming our reps could get out...
Mine are in vivs and they can't open the doors and wouldn't even know what the 'outside world' was!


----------



## EmmaLock

ratboy said:


> The point is that the joy of keeping them is not in question.
> 
> The issue is simply if the animals escaped then could they survive and breed in the wild anywhere in Europe, if they can then they pose a potential threat to the natural wildlife and ecosystems of that area and will therefore be put on the list of invasive species.
> 
> I seriously doubt that the powers that be will do house to house searches for these animals ... imagine the cost of doing so !!! But imports would certainly be banned and I expect that shows would be policed looking for the species in question thereby making them impossible to breed and sell.
> 
> Obviously I am just guessing here... but it is the way I would do it and it seems to be what has basically happened with species on the EPS list.


I get ya. I went a little off the point. I understand the concerns about invasive species, but that's why Im up for promoting the responsible keeping of snakes.


----------



## bladeblaster

Anybody get now why I am always so against these, "my snake escaped again - how fuuny it was in my shoe" threads?


----------



## kenneally1

Emzylock said:


> Right,
> 
> I know this will have to be dealt with sensibly and not through ranting and raving at those trying to impose a ban. We should band together to show off the joys snakes are when kept responsibly. Im sure if enough of us speak out everywhere we can stop this.
> 
> However! *IF* any law *is* passed where keeping reptiles is banned, even after peaceful protests and petitions, I *will *shoot the knee caps off of anyone who trys to take away my animals.
> 
> That is all. :2thumb:




Helpful :2thumb:....Not:bash:



Have you ever seen someone's kneecaps set too by a B/bat ? ( can't imagine what a 12 bore to the Knee cap would look like )....Not a pretty sight i can tell you. And not the type of publicity an issue like this needs.


Before we start saying sh*te like that, we need to get of our arses and do something. And NO that dosn't mean putting umpteen posts on an interweb forum... It means getting out to your local herp club meeting, it means making that extra effort to get to an IHS meeting et etc, rather than just saying " i'd like to make it" . It means writing to youR PM and to your EU representative. In short, if this is as serious as it sounds, it means us actually taking time out of our day to accomplish something positive for this hobby we all say we love so much.


I havn't been this motivated by political action since they threatened to take my 12k (rms) sound system away ( AKA criminal justice bill ) Mind you that protest/action didn't do much good :blush: lets make this one better


The interweb is a good tool, but it is just a small part of what is needed to stop this tomfoolery


----------



## herpzane

Still think we are all panicking over nothing.....


----------



## kenneally1

herpzane said:


> Still think we are all panicking over nothing.....




Yeah your probably right:blush:


























Actually ?










No wait !!!






















your Not right:gasp:
























TOOL:bash:


----------



## andy007

Just emailed my local MP to get her opinion on the proposed policies.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

andy007 said:


> Just emailed my local MP to get her opinion on the proposed policies.


thats an excellent idea andy, I am sure this could potentially affect you too. 
I am not sure who mine is as just moved recently.


----------



## andy007

Salazare Slytherin said:


> thats an excellent idea andy, I am sure this could potentially affect you too.
> I am not sure who mine is as just moved recently.


I had to google it to find out mine lol


----------



## JustJack

Hope this works i made this petition..
Think this is right..
Stop The Herping Ban


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

andy007 said:


> I had to google it to find out mine lol


lol oh well I shall do the same.
didnt relise they had contact info on google but there we go lols:notworthy:


----------



## bladeblaster

So if these rules/laws whatever you want to call them are passed what happens? A shit load of non-native snakes get dumped around the country side, we already have wild cats from the DWAL implementation.

I personally do not believe that this is going to happen. Not saying we should just sit back and be complacent, far from it, and the work people like Chris do is priceless. However lets not get into panic mode.

Lets just keep things in perspective though.

The costs, and implications of passing and policing this sort of legislation are just ludicrous. People will still keep and breed these species, it will just go underground. Making the likelyhood of snakes being released, and/or not properly treated even higher.

People still keep/breed/trade/sell DWA animals with no liscence, so why would this piece of legislation be any different.

This is shutting the gate after the horse has bolted, and TBH I can't see this getting anywhere as there is just no logical argument behind how this would protect native wildlife anywhere. We already have hundreds of non-native species of birds, mammels, insects, reptiles, amphibians, arachnids in this country, as do many other countries, and plenty that are far more harmful to the 'native' ecosystems than a few colubrids would be.

Lets not panic just yet.


----------



## JustJack

I made this petition..
Hope it helps..
Stop The Herping Ban


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Trootle said:


> Hope this works i made this petition..
> Think this is right..
> Stop The Herping Ban


signed it works I think:whistling2:


----------



## Dragon Wolf

Trootle said:


> Hope this works i made this petition..
> Think this is right..
> Stop The Herping Ban


Signed : victory:


----------



## herpzane

kenneally1 said:


> Yeah your probably right:blush:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wait !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> your Not right:gasp:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TOOL:bash:


Im not being a tool im just being realistic, Nobody is going to come round our houses and take our reptiles away! All this means is there will be a little more regulation on reptile keeping. which tbh i think is fair, look at burmese pythons in florida for example? I see lots of people on this thread getting really worried. Until people are knocking on our doors to take our reptiles i wouldnt worry....


----------



## mushroomminer

Wow, this really adds to my list of things that has made this day bad  Whatever I can do to help, I will - I'm not really sure what I am able to do though :hmm:I was listening to random music on youtube earlier and this quote came up at the end of a song which i thought was quite fitting to this thread: 
"A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. "
Margaret Mead

It was quite weird that this came up while I was reading about this! We are a small group of people with a lot of people against us don't like reptiles being kept as pets and we need to stand up for ourselves!
As others have said, the government are getting ridiculous with all these regulations etc, soon we arn't going to be able to do anything :gasp: I think I'm going to go and watch V for Vendetta now to make myself feel better lol
I really hope that this all comes to nothing in the end!


​


----------



## nuggett5

herpzane said:


> Im not being a tool im just being realistic, Nobody is going to come round our houses and take our reptiles away! All this means is there will be a little more regulation on reptile keeping. which tbh i think is fair, look at burmese pythons in florida for example? I see lots of people on this thread getting really worried. Until people are knocking on our doors to take our reptiles i wouldnt worry....


 I think the same but i think alot of people are forgetting if a rep was to escape and get in the the U.K wild life i would be ok in the summer months but i would prob say onece winter kicks in it would kill them off .


----------



## AstroFenn

If this passes, all rabbit, guinea pig, gerbil, chinchilla, degu, bird, hamster keepers would also have to get rid.... pretty much NONE of our pets are native.... somehow I Don't see this going ahead...


----------



## Tds79

I did post this in snake section but thought id post here too . . . From what i understand they plan to "blacklist" non native species that if released/escaped into the wild they would survive. Those that owned anything on said blacklist would be allowed to keep it, but never breed from it. Never sell it or even give it away, so in theory in x amount of years no animals on said blacklist would be kept anywhere within the eu. 
The problem is they will look at it as a whole so a exotic that would survive in spain but not here would still be on the blacklist here.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Tds79 said:


> I did post this in snake section but thought id post here too . . . From what i understand they plan to "blacklist" non native species that if released/escaped into the wild they would survive. Those that owned anything on said blacklist would be allowed to keep it, but never breed from it. Never sell it or even give it away, so in theory in x amount of years no animals on said blacklist would be kept anywhere within the eu.
> The problem is they will look at it as a whole so a exotic that would survive in spain but not here would still be on the blacklist here.


See this is a contradiction really though, because there is an animal welfare law, that states you should allow your animals to expirience things as though in the wild, and breeding is mentioned somewhere along that line? 
infact I am going to try and find it. 
we cannot win either way, although some people are responsible.


----------



## leecb0

herpzane said:


> Im not being a tool im just being realistic, Nobody is going to come round our houses and take our reptiles away! All this means is there will be a little more regulation on reptile keeping. which tbh i think is fair, look at burmese pythons in florida for example? I see lots of people on this thread getting really worried. Until people are knocking on our doors to take our reptiles i wouldnt worry....


Firstly you might not be aware around 10 years ago the hobby of keeping reptiles was almost banned, when i mean almost im talking within hours it was to be voted on and it was the likes of IHS and Chris that stopped this happening. Since then the hobby has had a voice and a decent representaiton with the government. But this is different this isnt going to be decided by our government but the eurocrats, who dont actually live in the real world. If you have a few of them on a crusade and have a bit of sway with other members then im afraid it is a reality.
They are not just going to come in and take all our animals off us, but they will restrict importations, it will take time could be 20/30 years but they can harm the hobby bad enough that it will be ileagle to sell them breed them etc then they could put hefty fines if you are cought. Now you talk about the Burms in florida, well it is now illeagle to own a burmese in that state without a licence, these were only given to those who applied for them and had the animals as far as i am aware, so now certain species of python are illeagle to own in Florida you cant just think, i fance a retic and buy one anymore. This could possibly happen over here.
Its speculation what will become of this law as yet so we dont know.


----------



## Tds79

but it could still survive in other countrys in the eu which is why it would still be on the blacklist. 
I would like to think it wouldnt happen but lots of people didnt think dda was going to happen and it did, fox hunting is another one that people didnt think would happen. In all honesty it wouldnt surprise me at all if it got passed.


----------



## Tds79

it wont work people have tried it with banned dog breeds and pretty much got laughed at.


----------



## leecb0

nuggett5 said:


> I think the same but i think alot of people are forgetting if a rep was to escape and get in the the U.K wild life i would be ok in the summer months but i would prob say onece winter kicks in it would kill them off .


What about American rat snakes, corn snakes, some asian rat snakes, garter snakes, king snakes. Most of these could easily live in our climate. 
Thats a big chunk of the hobby right there.


----------



## emmabee

naz said:


> i didnt realise we were in the eu we dont use euros please dont think im stupid im just really worried and confused


no we dont use euros but we are still a part of the EU so if they pass a european law we have to stick to it. 



Molly75 said:


> Thankyou, that a kind thing to say  I am off to Houten and as most my breeders friends are Colubrid breeders on a large scale it will be of interest to hear their thoughts.
> 
> Those of us who have booked tables at Shows can help with petitions and raise awareness as well as at educational events, I'll be at one on the 10th April.
> 
> I'll also speak to friends to see if we could maybe have petitions as the Euro events as many of UK traders have tables.
> 
> Its a big ask but affects us all, I used to do public speaking for a living so I'm more than willing to step up and help as much as I can as this is not only my hobby but a passion which has taken up most of my life, if we can all portray that passion and responsibility surely we have a fighting chance.


that would be good, i would be really interested in what our european friends think to this and are doing.
britain seems a bit of a push over obaying EU law but others in the EU arent so soft!

it might not come to pass but we need to be united on a course of action now so that if it ever looks likely we are prepared and know which direction we are going in!
we cant agree on how to keep a corn snake so this is a huge test for our community to see if we actually agree and can pull together when its needed!

keep us updated on what our EU friends have to say and are doing!



ratboy said:


> The point is that the joy of keeping them is not in question.
> 
> The issue is simply if the animals escaped then could they survive and breed in the wild anywhere in Europe, if they can then they pose a potential threat to the natural wildlife and ecosystems of that area and will therefore be put on the list of invasive species.
> 
> I seriously doubt that the powers that be will do house to house searches for these animals ... imagine the cost of doing so !!! But imports would certainly be banned and I expect that shows would be policed looking for the species in question thereby making them impossible to breed and sell.
> 
> Obviously I am just guessing here... but it is the way I would do it and it seems to be what has basically happened with species on the EPS list.


and this is why people need to be worried! its not the idea of a mass cull ect as that would cause riots but its how it filters down to us in practical ways.
we will loose the right to keep a variety of species, not just reps.



mushroomminer said:


> Wow, this really adds to my list of things that has made this day bad  Whatever I can do to help, I will - I'm not really sure what I am able to do though :hmm:I was listening to random music on youtube earlier and this qoute came up at the end of a song which i thought was quite fitting to this thread:
> "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. "
> Margaret Mead
> 
> It was quite weird that this came up while I was reading about this!
> As others have said, the government are getting ridiculous with all these regulations etc, soon we arn't going to be able to do anything :gasp: I think I'm going to go and watch V for Vendetta now to make myself feel better lol


perhaps that should be our "theme tune"!!!!


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

Surely this won't work?! They can't even properly enforce laws we have now, so many people will object to it... I'm sure nothing will happen.

However, They would have to kill me first to get to my pets.. they aren't going without a fight! :censor:

So what about pet rabbits, chinchillas etc? they are all non native species.... Surely this can't be true!


----------



## mushroomminer

perhaps that should be our "theme tune"!!!![/QUOTE]

Yes its quite appropriate isn't it! : victory:


----------



## Nattie08

the thing is, if you've got a breeding trio of something that is on the 'blacklist' what is to stop people breeding them on the quiet and selling them privately? I don't know how they would monitor all the animals in the country and prevent people breeding them still.


----------



## Tds79

Honestly i think it has a high chance of going through. The eu are living in their own world and wont really worry about keepers, there answer will probably be "own something not on blacklist "


----------



## nuggett5

leecb0 said:


> What about American rat snakes, corn snakes, some asian rat snakes, garter snakes, king snakes. Most of these could easily live in our climate.
> Thats a big chunk of the hobby right there.


 may be true :blush: all i can say is corns ,kings and garters have been in the hobby for a long time i know someone who kept corns back in the 70s . if there was going to be a prob with them i would of guessed we would of had one already ? maybe?


----------



## Tds79

Nattie08 said:


> the thing is, if you've got a breeding trio of something that is on the 'blacklist' what is to stop people breeding them on the quiet and selling them privately? I don't know how they would monitor all the animals in the country and prevent people breeding them still.


They wouldnt it would just be pushed underground, same as banned dogs and selling dwas to people without licences.


----------



## emmabee

nuggett5 said:


> may be true :blush: all i can say is corns ,kings and garters have been in the hobby for a long time i know someone who kept corns back in the 70s . if there was going to be a prob with them i would of guessed we would of had one already ? maybe?


that makes no difference to them. what lee is saying in his last 2 posts is spot on.
i believe there is a colony of escaped snakes in north wales in the wild but i cant remember their name! this is what they are trying to stop as they are claiming it damages our ecosystems, which unfortunately in some cases is true, but this ban is not the way to go as it doesnt take into account a lot of important factors.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

emmabee said:


> that makes no difference to them. what lee is saying in his last 2 posts is spot on.
> i believe there is a colony of escaped snakes in north wales in the wild but i cant remember their name! this is what they are trying to stop as they are claiming it damages our ecosystems, which unfortunately in some cases is true, but this ban is not the way to go as it doesnt take into account a lot of important factors.


they may survive but can they breed? 
our country is very very cold considering.
some have difficulty incubating eggs in the warmth of there own home never mind outside.


----------



## southpython

Double post


----------



## KurtH

Can you imagine being in prison with a 6 and a half foot murderer or rapist.....

'What you in for?'

'Because I let my Green Anoles make love'....... :lol2:


----------



## _jake_

Tbh I really think this is all being taken to seriously. If I'm not mistaken this is covering all species that could invade Europe? That would include tropical fish and house plants? The worse they could possibly do is ban captive breeding.


----------



## southpython

Just read through, so they are planning to ban species that can live in the wild in the EU?

Speechless.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

southpython said:


> I have a banging headache, and im sleepy. Can you please explain what going on to me dixon? x I cant read all the text cause my heat is wrecked/ and people are messaging me on facebook telling me something bad is going on? x thanks.


 
ermmmm right okay lets just say that it could be your not allowed to breed your animals, or keep them up to a point, legislations "could become tigher, as lee has said they nearly put a complete bann on it a long time ago. 
your hobby is at risk of being stoped!


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

southpython said:


> Just read through, so they are planning to ban species that can live in the wild in the EU?
> 
> Speechless.


we can fight it.:no1:


----------



## southpython

Salazare Slytherin said:


> ermmmm right okay lets just say that it could be your not allowed to breed your animals, or keep them up to a point, legislations "could become tigher, as lee has said they nearly put a complete bann on it a long time ago.
> your hobby is at risk of being stoped!


What can someone like "Me" do to help?


----------



## snake5007

Are there any groups on facebook that members from here have set up? I want to join, if so.


----------



## emmabee

Salazare Slytherin said:


> they may survive but can they breed?
> our country is very very cold considering.
> some have difficulty incubating eggs in the warmth of there own home never mind outside.


yes i believe they have. its a snake species thats native to spain from what i remember and i believe they escaped from a zoo not a private collector. which is ironic as they will still be allowed to keep reps!



southpython said:


> Just read through, so they are planning to ban species that can live in the wild in the EU?
> 
> Speechless.





southpython said:


> What can someone like "Me" do to help?


i think we need to get organised now. we need to see what everyone wants to do and to wait to hear from chris what he recommends us to do. 

if we all do little bits here and there personally i dont think it will have as much of an impact as if we all pulled together.

i think we need to get all sections onto this. its been posted but nobody is reading it!
we need to unite on this as our numbers individually is nothing, but together will pack quite a punch!

information is needed to be put out there. repost the OP on all the forums you are members of, make facebook groups, get petitions going, make some fuss!

TO THE MODS!!!CAN THIS THREAD BE IN THE OTHER SECTIONS ALSO BE MADE INTO A STICKY! other sections need to react too!


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

southpython said:


> What can someone like "Me" do to help?


we need to sign any and all petitons going around the forums as a start, this could also lead to public protesting e.t.c 
show em what we are made of! 
all rodents, mamaml, reptile, invert keepers joining together, puttin differences aside, showing them we are responsible in what we keep.
what we do, what the hobby has worked hard at to get where it is, what our wonderful rescues do! 

do anything and everything you think you can.
keep an eye out and the same to everyone else, this is our only hope!


----------



## southpython

emmabee said:


> yes i believe they have. its a snake species thats native to spain from what i remember and i believe they escaped from a zoo not a private collector. which is ironic as they will still be allowed to keep reps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think we need to get organised now. we need to see what everyone wants to do and to wait to hear from chris what he recommends us to do.
> 
> if we all do little bits here and there personally i dont think it will have as much of an impact as if we all pulled together.
> 
> i think we need to get all sections onto this. its been posted but nobody is reading it!
> we need to unite on this as our numbers individually is nothing, but together will pack quite a punch!
> 
> information is needed to be put out there. repost the OP on all the forums you are members of, make facebook groups, get petitions going, make some fuss!
> 
> TO THE MODS!!!CAN THIS THREAD BE IN THE OTHER SECTIONS ALSO BE MADE INTO A STICKY! other sections need to react too!


Hey x ill make a facebook group. what should i call it? x

i agree x


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

emmabee said:


> yes i believe they have. its a snake species thats native to spain from what i remember and i believe they escaped from a zoo not a private collector. which is ironic as they will still be allowed to keep reps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think we need to get organised now. we need to see what everyone wants to do and to wait to hear from chris what he recommends us to do.
> 
> if we all do little bits here and there personally i dont think it will have as much of an impact as if we all pulled together.
> 
> i think we need to get all sections onto this. its been posted but nobody is reading it!
> we need to unite on this as our numbers individually is nothing, but together will pack quite a punch!
> 
> information is needed to be put out there. repost the OP on all the forums you are members of, make facebook groups, get petitions going, make some fuss!
> 
> TO THE MODS!!!CAN THIS THREAD BE IN THE OTHER SECTIONS ALSO BE MADE INTO A STICKY! other sections need to react too!


hit the report button hun I have twice I think and ahhhhh krap things just get better and better.:devil:


----------



## RedGex

Another grave concern I have if this ever got passed is that - if breeding/trading/keeping to some extent got banned, and as happened with dwa some got dumped - what diseases would our native reptiles then be exposed to (aside from the fact the whole thing they are trying to prevent, they may push the odd irresponsible person into actually doing...). I sometimes wonder who on earth comes up with these ideas and how they are allowed to progress to this extent. It beggers belief.




snake5007 said:


> Are there any groups on facebook that members from here have set up? I want to join, if so.


----------



## leecb0

Salazare Slytherin said:


> they may survive but can they breed?
> our country is very very cold considering.
> some have difficulty incubating eggs in the warmth of there own home never mind outside.


Yes our country is cold but think for a second on garter snakes they hibernate in vast numbers and the temps go down to below freezing they then come out of that and start breeding. They are live bearers, its usual for animals that live in verieble climates to give birth to live young over eggs to give the species a better birth success rate. Also animals like red eared terrapins can and do a lot of damage to forighn ecosystems and again can literally be frozen solid during the winter. Its believed that snakes have something within there blood that provents them from totally freezing, like an anti freeze. and reptiles are very good at adapting. But the problem is it matters not if a snake or reptile can servive in this country, due to it being a european ban if say a boa could live and servive in southern spain then it will be banned european wide. Look at a map of europe and you could argue most reptiles could servive in the mediteranian part of europe, this would mean a ban everywhere even here even if they would not be able to servive.


----------



## leecb0

RedGex said:


> Another grave concern I have if this ever got passed is that - if breeding/trading/keeping to some extent got banned, and as happened with dwa some got dumped - what diseases would our native reptiles then be exposed to (aside from the fact the whole thing they are trying to prevent, they may push the odd irresponsible person into actually doing...). I sometimes wonder who on earth comes up with these ideas and how they are allowed to progress to this extent. It beggers belief.


Problem is we are all looking at it from a reptile keeping point of view. The people who are looking to bring this law in are looking at protecting the ecosystem's that could be damaged such as that that has happend in florida. Thing is if you look at it from there point of view they have some outstanding evidence of what could happen "if" something happend which we can find it hard to rebute.


----------



## emmabee

southpython said:


> Hey x ill make a facebook group. what should i call it? x
> 
> i agree x


good i just tried and havent a clue how to do it!
not sure on a name but it needs to let every exotic keeper be it mammal, rep, bird ect that this threat involves them and their pets! dont ban our pets and reps?



Salazare Slytherin said:


> hit the report button hun I have twice I think and ahhhhh krap things just get better and better.:devil:


i have! i also keep PMing any people i can think of in them sections! PMd exotics mod and will work my way through! fancy doing the same? also think that the frog people may need to know? amy affect them!



RedGex said:


> Another grave concern I have if this ever got passed is that - if breeding/trading/keeping to some extent got banned, and as happened with dwa some got dumped - what diseases would our native reptiles then be exposed to (aside from the fact the whole thing they are trying to prevent, they may push the odd irresponsible person into actually doing...). I sometimes wonder who on earth comes up with these ideas and how they are allowed to progress to this extent. It beggers belief.


i agree but its as lee called them the eurocrats!
i think that the breeding ban will affect a lot of peoples livelihoods too so it goes from pet keeper to producer to someones life.
its progressed to this extent by being kept quiet but chris newman has decided this is enough of a threat to make it public on a forum, so there must be something in it that he believes just the organisations that represent us cannot deal with on their own.


----------



## southpython

Log in | Facebook

JOIN!


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

leecb0 said:


> Yes our country is cold but think for a second on garter snakes they hibernate in vast numbers and the temps go down to below freezing they then come out of that and start breeding. They are live bearers, its usual for animals that live in verieble climates to give birth to live young over eggs to give the species a better birth success rate. Also animals like red eared terrapins can and do a lot of damage to forighn ecosystems and again can literally be frozen solid during the winter. Its believed that snakes have something within there blood that provents them from totally freezing, like an anti freeze. and reptiles are very good at adapting. But the problem is it matters not if a snake or reptile can servive in this country, due to it being a european ban if say a boa could live and servive in southern spain then it will be banned european wide. Look at a map of europe and you could argue most reptiles could servive in the mediteranian part of europe, this would mean a ban everywhere even here even if they would not be able to servive.


yeah I suppose your right mate! I was being narrow minded and thinking of corn snakes and royal pythons only I get ahead of myself at times like this.


----------



## leecb0

Any way i am moving to Jersey next month and it isnt part of the EU:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

leecb0 said:


> Any way i am moving to Jersey next month and it isnt part of the EU:Na_Na_Na_Na:


really! you git! damn you:devil:
sign that petition before you go lol


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

emmabee said:


> good i just tried and havent a clue how to do it!
> not sure on a name but it needs to let every exotic keeper be it mammal, rep, bird ect that this threat involves them and their pets! dont ban our pets and reps?
> 
> 
> 
> i have! i also keep PMing any people i can think of in them sections! PMd exotics mod and will work my way through! fancy doing the same? also think that the frog people may need to know? amy affect them!
> 
> 
> 
> i agree but its as lee called them the eurocrats!
> i think that the breeding ban will affect a lot of peoples livelihoods too so it goes from pet keeper to producer to someones life.
> its progressed to this extent by being kept quiet but chris newman has decided this is enough of a threat to make it public on a forum, so there must be something in it that he believes just the organisations that represent us cannot deal with on their own.


 
frog people definately need to know. 
it is them who have a great part of the hobby,


----------



## emmabee

southpython said:


> Log in | Facebook
> 
> JOIN!


oh good! did you start it? i couldnt work out how to do it! maybe you should start a thread about the group?


----------



## riley165

*ello*

Would love to see anyone try take my boa's from me! I am not the biggest lad in the world but I am ex forces and know a thing or two about protecting what I hold dear! Dont get me wrong I am not threatening any authorities with violence I would try and offer them my girlfriend first as a way of making them forget I own boa's but if that didnt work I would resort to what ever means I had left to defend what I love!


Just a hypothetical question here: If a human was cut up in to small pieces and shared between say 30 or so boa's, How long do you think it would take to get rid of a small team of reptile police??? pmsl


----------



## southpython

riley165 said:


> Just a hypothetical question here: If a human was cut up in to small pieces and shared between say 30 or so boa's, How long do you think it would take to get rid of a small team of reptile police??? pmsl


:lol2:


----------



## ian14

Common sense time.
1) Red eared terrapins - the import of these was banned due to the impact they had on wildlife when released. There is NO evidence they have bred and are therefore not invasive.
2) Directives from the EU are NOT automatically made law in the UK.
3) There are numerous species which have been introduced and breed ie aesculapian snakes, wall lizards, midwife toads, marbled newts, alpine newts, and many more, none of which have adversely affected native species.
4) For as long as I can remember, Mr Newman has been claiming that moves are afoot to ban reptile keeping in the UK. It hasn't happened and it won't happen. Our climate is not the type that would allow other species to establish breeding populations threatening to native species.
The FBH portrays itself as a body representing keepers yet you can't join, there is no apparant committee, no constitution. Perhaps they should open up, accept membership, and hold meetings so that they can then act as a voice for keepers. So far, the only public face of the FBH that I have seen is a stand at a reptile show selling old second hand books and dirty vivs with remnants of substrate in the corners.


----------



## mooselee

We could all vote UKIP at any elections :2thumb:


----------



## ghostcornsnake

mooselee said:


> We could all vote UKIP at any elections :2thumb:


 im 17 and when i can vote im always going to vote ukip.


----------



## Chris Newman

Dear all,

What can I say other than wow, I have never seen so much interest in a political topic before. Keepers are right to be worried as in my view this is the biggest threat we have ever faced, it has the potential to devastate if not destroy our hobby. One of the problems I face is I am often accused of *scaremongering*, this is not the case, but it is one of the reasons I write so little today. Over the passed decade our hobby has been under immense pressure to be banned or severally restricted, the fact this has not happened is not down to luck, it down to a few people fighting our concern. If we want and indication of what could happen then look at what is happening in parts of the USA today! The legislation currently being framed is an EU Regulation, not a Directive, a Regulation has to be enforced in all member states government has no option! 

Ok, so where do we go from here? The next meeting with UK government is on the 15th of April, and the final meeting of the EU Commission preventions working group is 31st of May. A meeting in Germany with various pro keeping groups will be taking place on the 4th of June. By mid June we will have a better understand of the direction being proposed by the Commission, and the meeting with other vested interest groups will have taken place. 

On the 25th of June the FBH Conference will take place in Doncaster in conjunction with the IHS show which is on the 26th. At the conference this issue will be on the agenda for discussion, so if people are interested then I suggest you reserve you place at the conference ASAP. Richard Brooks is coordinator and his email address is: Richard Brook [email protected]

I appreciate that not everyone will be able to get to the conference, indeed there are only 200 places available. If people wish to organise their own regional meetings to discuss this matter then I am very happy to attend and discuss this issue!

What you can all do to help is disseminate this information, we need as many people as possible to know and respond when the time is right. We especially need to get other EU Countries interested; so far few are aware of what is going on. There will be a public consultation taking place late summer 2011, this is where ever single person counts, we need as many keepers as possible to participate.

I would just like to thank you all for taking an interest in this matter, together we can ensure our hobby continues.


----------



## Brittanicus

The world needs more people like Chris and less EU bureaucrats interfering in our day to day lives.


----------



## Khanidge

_jake_ said:


> Tbh I really think this is all being taken to seriously. If I'm not mistaken this is covering all species that could invade Europe? That would include tropical fish and house plants? The worse they could possibly do is ban captive breeding.


Don't bury your head in the sand....

Take it seriously........

Yes it can include any Invasive living creature/plant eventually..... 

The biggest problem is that there is alot of money to be made for certain Animal rights groups, to help them fight us.

This sponsor ship come from many different manufacturing companies from Fashion to furniture to electrical ect. These companies sponsor them as it looks good for business, if they are fighting a so called good cause.

If this legislation is passed. Each and every time another creature is added to the list (using this legislation), these Anti's have then proved that the sponsor ship money they have received has been used for that cause. Thus more money is given to them to fight the next cause.

Once they have depleted every species of animal/plant that they can possibly try to add to the list, Lets say in 20+ years they can give up knowing that for the rest of their lives they will never want for any thing as they will be richer than Bill Gate's 

If you honestly believe that the founders of these so called Animal rights organisations actually give a Monkey's about the animals in question then you are very much mistaken... 

Its all about MONEY nothing else....... 


Regards Dean.......................


----------



## Khanidge

Don't bury your head in the sand....

Take it seriously........

Yes it can include any Invasive living creature/plant eventually..... 

The biggest problem is that there is alot of money to be made for certain Animal rights groups, to help them fight us.

This sponsor ship come from many different manufacturing companies from Fashion to furniture to electrical ect. These companies sponsor them as it looks good for business, if they are fighting a so called good cause.

If this legislation is passed. Each and every time another creature is added to the list (using this legislation), these Anti's have then proved that the sponsor ship money they have received has been used for that cause. Thus more money is given to them to fight the next cause.

Once they have depleted every species of animal/plant that they can possibly try to add to the list, Lets say in 20+ years they can give up knowing that for the rest of their lives they will never want for any thing as they will be richer than Bill Gate's 

If you honestly believe that the founders of these so called Animal rights organisations actually give a Monkey's about the animals in question then you are very much mistaken... 

Its all about MONEY nothing else....... 


Regards Dean.......................

Spread the word lets fight this togeather................................


----------



## JustJack

Thanks to everyone that has signed my petition! We have 98 signatures on the petition and many more on the facebook groups!


----------



## JustJack

Thanks to everyone that has signed my petition!! We have 98 signatures on the petition and many more on the facebook groups!


----------



## MofuTofu

Is this only going to happen in the EU areas? Or will it affect the whole world because if it does it will be total :censor:


----------



## Khanidge

MofuTofu said:


> Is this only going to happen in the EU areas? Or will it affect the whole world because if it does it will be total :censor:


All European states, That includes the United Kingdom...........


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

They have been trying to ban exotics for donkey years. It's nit going to happen overnight or anytime soon and it's going to be hard to implement here, after all they would have a roit on their hands and we have Chris on our side!


----------



## MofuTofu

Khanidge said:


> All European states, That includes the United Kingdom...........


God this sucks... i still don't get whats wrong with keeping non native pets ._.


----------



## Tds79

they basically only want nativ species in the wild . . . Which you can kind of understand, but they are going wrong way about it. I would be very surprised if the uk took the law on, think how many people would be put out of business, do they really want to add to the unemployment rate ? The pet industry is a huge industry in the uk, id be shocked if they decided to ruin it.


----------



## angelgirls29

Tds79 said:


> they basically only want nativ species in the wild . . . Which you can kind of understand, but they are going wrong way about it. I would be very surprised if the uk took the law on, think how many people would be put out of business, do they really want to add to the unemployment rate ? The pet industry is a huge industry in the uk, id be shocked if they decided to ruin it.


As far as i understand it, it's going to become a "Regulation" which means we (the UK) have to adhere to it.
They've said they want something in place by 2012 (Chris Newman has posted in the thread in Snakes)


----------



## DavieB

I'm hoping that at the worst it ban's wild caught animals and shipments. Would be very difficult to ban breeding and selling within the industry.


----------



## Tds79

There was recent regulations brought in by the eu that uk didnt bring in, so i guessed we didnt have to bring it in here. Even so, think of the knock on effect this would have, birds . . . . How many kept are native ? Fish keepers . . . Koi and marine is a multi million pound business. This isnt just herp keepers effected would europe has a whole want to lose all that money ?


----------



## angelgirls29

Regulations or legislation?


----------



## Tds79

Honestly im not sure and cant fine article that it was about. 
I think people need to prepear themselves for the worst, without sounding horrible eu dont listen to petitions, they dont even live in the real world.


----------



## DavieB

I reckon feeders could take a big hit. Locusts certain worms that are not natural in EU could definitely be seen as invasive. This could be a bigger issue than herps.

We may or may not be reading too much into this, a blacklist would definitely be preferred obviously, but its going to be more about things that wont have predators and breed like rabbits. 

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/invasivealien/docs/ias_discussion_paper.pdf


----------



## Tds79

I have contacted brian at bhb on facebook as i know alot of european keepers follow him on facebook and twitter asking if they can help spread the word by linking to this thread on facebook and twitter. 
Does anyone have link to facebook group ?


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

Tds79 said:


> Honestly im not sure and cant fine article that it was about.
> I think people need to prepear themselves for the worst, without sounding horrible eu dont listen to petitions, they dont even live in the real world.


Chris joined the fight back in the 1990 I believe so that's over 10 years ago. I can understand some of the issues countries have but I really do think banning all exotics isn't going to happen, especially overnight. Yes some
Animals may be more regulated or perhaps banned but i really dont believe they will be able to ban all exotic keeping.


----------



## JustJack

Hers the link:
Welcome to Facebook — Log in, sign up or learn more


----------



## Tds79

I have been in the hobby for 15 plus years and know how long the hobby has been under pressure. And yes it may not ban keeping of all exotics . . . . Yet but it would open the door for that to happen over a period of years.


----------



## geckocrazy14

Craziness. Petition signed!


----------



## Tds79

it doesnt work just take me to my home page


----------



## kniterider

I got halfway through and got bored.

Quotes like id rather die and things like that make me realise how melodrematic people become on the internet.

For starters how many times has there been word or theeat of animals being banned?
Hundreds.

Two, id be very suprised if they could legally take an animal you legally have away, you just wouldnt be allowed to breed them.

Yes this is another step towards making things harder for us which i disagree with but all these internet heroes/martyrs need a reality check. This effects real life not your cyber life. Adults need to grow up. Of course this is in my opinion. I agree with petititions and supporting the cause but lets at least be adult about it. Or are we a forum full of 12yo emos?


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

Exotic keeping is bigger now than ever before.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Do not know if it was posted but there is a group on facebook all reptile owners unite. 
not sure who added me? 
about this issue get joined up.


----------



## JustJack

Yes there is a group! 142 members! With the group and my petiton we have other 250 peopleso far!!!


----------



## emmabee

kniterider said:


> I got halfway through and got bored.
> 
> Quotes like id rather die and things like that make me realise how melodrematic people become on the internet.
> 
> For starters how many times has there been word or theeat of animals being banned?
> Hundreds.
> 
> Two, id be very suprised if they could legally take an animal you legally have away, you just wouldnt be allowed to breed them.
> 
> Yes this is another step towards making things harder for us which i disagree with but all these internet heroes/martyrs need a reality check. This effects real life not your cyber life. Adults need to grow up. Of course this is in my opinion. I agree with petititions and supporting the cause but lets at least be adult about it. Or are we a forum full of 12yo emos?


are you for real? got bored?
no they wont take our animals away but they will ban sale, trade, import and movement of them. its not just snakes but all animals, fish and plants that could survive in any EU country.
yes the internet can be a pain and it wont help us just using the internet, but its a good starting point to get awareness out and to plan what to do next. 

i for 1 do not wish to have my animals restricted. this is going to affect peoples livlihoods too.


----------



## JustJack

I have notifieda few reptil shops on facebook with my petiton and this thread!! Al least we are starting somewhere!


----------



## kniterider

I got bored the melodramatics yes.

As i said i agree with petitions etc but the way people go on armed militants ay as well be knocking on their door at this very moment with guns.

Theres ways of going about things, but being a keyboard matyr isbt one of them.


----------



## Gaboon

Solidarity is key here! Would it be a good idea to have a separate thread with just posts from Chris N. and other legitimate groups, petitions and updates etc? So people can get to the FACTS quickly without being distracted by OPINIONS.


----------



## kirky1980

where is the petition to sign ?


----------



## kerrithsoden

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Do not know if it was posted but there is a group on facebook all reptile owners unite.
> not sure who added me?
> about this issue get joined up.


 
anyone want to post the link?


----------



## JustJack

Heres my petiton..
Stop The Herping Ban
When i post the fb link it doesnt seem to work!


----------



## kirky1980

Trootle said:


> Heres my petiton..
> Stop The Herping Ban
> When i post the fb link it doesnt seem to work!


found it i signed it so did my wife :no1:


----------



## JustJack

Cool!


----------



## Tds79

Im a pleb and cant find the facebook group  whats it called


----------



## JustJack

All european reptile keepers unite..


----------



## Tds79

Thanks will look now


----------



## kirky1980

Trootle said:


> All european reptile keepers unite..


cheers iv just been looking aswell and couldnt find it :lol2:


----------



## xxx-dztini-xxx

this is very upsetting but i would deffinately not protest on the streets, look what happened to the students that protested, it got made worse by the idiots that got violent
there are better ways
we have to stand for what we believe, hitting the streets all guns ablaze will not shown how serious we are


----------



## Mal

Nicki_ said:


> There are millions of people to speak against it, reptile keeping is becoming as popular as owning a cat or a dog.
> 
> They don't stand a chance on banning it, but may be able to restrict certain things such as breeding without a licence or buying without reptile keeping training lol.


Im sorry Nicki but they stand a good chance of imposing an indirect ban and it isnt just reptiles. If you read some of Chris Newmans previous articles / threads it is possible that the keeping of any form of companion pet will for all intents and purposes be ended within a decade. There are a number of countries that have imposed absolute bans on keeping reptiles, so yes it is possible.

Some of the 'antis' are very skillful at distorting facts and making twisted propaganda suit their cause. They have already demonstrated they have influence at the seat of power, ie Governmental level. Make no mistake, their intent is to use every means possible to stop us from keeping the animals we love.

Ive said this in another thread and will say it here. We need a united voice and one way of achieving this is for us all to join organisations such as the BFH and IHS. If they have the massive membership that the reptile keeping community could give, they would have a very loud voice. At the moment they are so poorly supported they are just a whisper. They need our support if they are to stand any chance of championing our cause and helping to preserve our right to keep the animals we love so much.


----------



## southpython

I made the group because i thought it may help in some way, Peoples strong opinions are turning this into a Flippin WW2. Please can someone else come forward to become an admin with me to delete this arguments when they need to be delted. it wont look good if we are argueing with each other.

Pm me if you want to help me and be the admin of the group cause i dont want this on the main page


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

southpython said:


> I made the group because i thought it may help in some way, Peoples strong opinions are turning this into a Flippin WW2. Please can someone else come forward to become an admin with me to delete this arguments when they need to be delted. it wont look good if we are argueing with each other.
> 
> Pm me if you want to help me and be the admin of the group cause i dont want this on the main page


who is arguing? hang on I am logging on see if my wisdom can help: victory:


----------



## Mal

southpython said:


> I made the group because i thought it may help in some way, Peoples strong opinions are turning this into a Flippin WW2. Please can someone else come forward to become an admin with me to delete this arguments when they need to be delted. it wont look good if we are argueing with each other.
> 
> Pm me if you want to help me and be the admin of the group cause i dont want this on the main page


 Sorry, I dont see any arguing ? Im sorry if my post came across as argumentative, I was simply using Nikkis comment to illustrate a point but by no means arguing.


----------



## Tds79

Think they ment on facebook group. I havent even been accepted to join yet.


----------



## Tetley

First of all, I've asked to join the facebook group and signed the petition. It can't do any harm.

However - if they want to do this, chances are that a petition / anything else won't work, because they don't listen to reason. 

Another however from me is that I think this would be fairly impossible to police (as has been said, this involves much more than exotics) and would cost far too much...therefore may not be brought in at all, or if it is, will not be enforced very well. They were talking about bringing back dog licences before and decided that that was going to be too costly...this would be much more costly, and logically therefore less likely. However, the EU rarely works on logic. 

Think this is much more of a 'wait and see' issue than anything else, although as I said, I have signed the petition and joined the facebook group as it does no harm and is about as far as I am willing to go (I am not protesting on the streets, as I don't believe it achieves anything and think that some people simply use it as an excuse to be violent and in fact ruin the point of the protest).


----------



## emmabee

Gaboon said:


> Solidarity is key here! Would it be a good idea to have a separate thread with just posts from Chris N. and other legitimate groups, petitions and updates etc? So people can get to the FACTS quickly without being distracted by OPINIONS.


thats a good idea, if you want to put your point accross do it here and for info and updates a thread where only certain people can post would be good.

we defenately need to stick together on this one!


----------



## dorian

Are there any other sources that claim such restrictions?


----------



## bladeblaster

Brittanicus said:


> The world needs more people like Chris and less EU bureaucrats interfering in our day to day lives.


although you could argue that these bureaucrats are trying to protect native wildlife. What IF a boa constrictors became common place in southern europe and caused the extinction of a native species?

Hard to argue against the sentiment behind the legislation.

Whether the legislation is the best way forward, or indeed would even make any difference at all, is of course another matter entirely.

On one hand if no one protects native wild life we all shout and scream, but if they do, we all shout and scream. We want them to protect our native wildlife, just as long as it doesn't affect us, is that it?

People complain like hell about Grey Squirells, about peoples cats killing native wildilfe. Take MY non-native predators away though, and well I will break their knee caps.......yeah get real.

People seem to think they have some sort of god given right to keep exotics............news flash people.


----------



## kell_boy

bladeblaster said:


> although you could argue that these bureaucrats are trying to protect native wildlife. What IF a boa constrictors became common place in southern europe and caused the extinction of a native species?
> 
> Hard to argue against the sentiment behind the legislation.
> 
> Whether the legislation is the best way forward, or indeed would even make any difference at all, is of course another matter entirely.
> 
> On one hand if no one protects native wild life we all shout and scream, but if they do, we all shout and scream. We want them to protect our native wildlife, just as long as it doesn't affect us, is that it?
> 
> People complain like hell about Grey Squirells, about peoples cats killing native wildilfe. Take MY non-native predators away though, and well I will break their knee caps.......yeah get real.
> 
> People seem to think they have some sort of god given right to keep exotics............news flash people.


 
While I am obviously concerned about this legislation, I can definately understand where BB is coming from.

Countries have existing issues with invasive species, the ones im familiar with are the burmese pythons in florida, and the snakehead fish also in america which is absolutely destroying the native wildlife,

theres also the cain toads in australia? 

Im thinking that these politicians are thinking its only a matter of time before something like this could happen more close to home.

The grey squirrels is a great example, Ive only had the pleasure of seeing red squirrels because i went to Isle of wight and theyre beautiful!

This is a tough one indeed, As Im obviously huge fan of keeping reptiles, and dont want to see this hobby have restrictions in place, but I dont want to have whats happening in the states to happen over here, which always ends up with a culling of the invasive species and no one wants that.

Im not exactly sitting on the fence, but just trying to sit back and try to look at the bigger picture.


Go on flame me if you must....


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

When signing is it just your name you give or your address as well?


----------



## Tds79

just your name and email address


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

I never saw any arguing either maybey it was deleted.
right okay lets just confirm what is happening?
petitions have begun
facebook has made a social group reptile keepers unite
Log in | Facebook (not sure if it can work)
get to your local meetings if possible to discuss this matter!
this was also posted by a member
*Mike *
Everyone here needs to join the IHS... It will help this cause far more than a fb page... Go to their site and fill in the application form, it only takes a minute.


not everyone who has the money will be able to do this straight away I beleive it is £22.00 but it will certainly help (how I am not sure)


every little thing you can do to help no matter how little is a help, 
people saying it will never happen e.t.c 
please bear in mind it is still no good sitting back and hoping for the best, because it could happen! and that in itself is a threat. :bash:

We must unite together or fall without eachother.


----------



## ratboy

To be honest, I really do not think a petition is going to do much good. Chris has told us what is happening and there is not much we can do as individuals until it gets to the public consultation stage.

They key thing now is to spread the word about what Chris has said, again like Chris said in his post... Facebook is not a bad idea, assuming many have Non UK, Europeans on their friend lists. Maybe if the FBH set up the post at the top of this thread as a Facebook page and everone here 'liked' it... the message would spread a lot quicker than it will by simply asking RFUK members to sign a fairly meaningless petition.

Just a thought


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

right okay lets just confirm what is happening?
petitions have begun
facebook has made a social group reptile keepers unite
Log in | Facebook (not sure if it can work)
get to your local meetings if possible to discuss this matter!
this was also posted by a member
*Mike *
Everyone here needs to join the IHS... It will help this cause far more than a fb page... Go to their site and fill in the application form, it only takes a minute.


not everyone who has the money will be able to do this straight away I beleive it is £22.00 but it will certainly help (how I am not sure)


every little thing you can do to help no matter how little is a help, 
people saying it will never happen e.t.c 
please bear in mind it is still no good sitting back and hoping for the best, because it could happen! and that in itself is a threat. :bash:

We must unite together or fall without each other.


----------



## DanielF

Hopefully it doesnt happen, but if it does the black market is always fun :whistling2:


----------



## andy007

Just a quick question........For people on low incomes or not a lot of spare cash, which would be the most beneficial organisation to join....BHS or IHS? 

Beneficial as in the organisation having the money to fund it's campaign.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

andy007 said:


> Just a quick question........For people on low incomes or not a lot of spare cash, which would be the most beneficial organisation to join....BHS or IHS?
> 
> Beneficial as in the organisation having the money to fund it's campaign.


 
not sure matey, I will be honest I never herd of them til this week.:blush:


----------



## andy007

Salazare Slytherin said:


> not sure matey, I will be honest I never herd of them til this week.:blush:


hehe....just wondered where money would be best directed: victory:


----------



## leecb0

I agree with what a couple of people have said about there being a lot of melodratics on this thread. 
Thing is you can make all the petitions and crappy facebook pages you like.....sorry i just been added to a FB group and all i saw was people slagging people on the chat off. I have removed myself as this has no relevence to anything that is going on.
While i understand peoples sentiments, there is nothing that can be done by jumping up and shouting at this time. What is really needed is getting other countries to listen and understand. this country is reasonably ok at the moment, we have a reasonble vioce within the government. but some other countries dont even know this is happening. If it does go to the law makers in europe it matters not a jot thaqt a bunch of people in the UK are not happy about it. But get the rest of europe on side then perhaps if it is going to happen then perhaps we have a chance.
Also what blade blaster said is true, we all go on about the things that go on in the wild but when a law comes along to protect it then everybody shouts. Its a catch 22 situation although we know it isnt the best thought out proposal. We all go on about this snake wont live here or that wont live there. but what you all seem to forget they are not doing this without a huge peice of evidence of what invasive non native species can do, in Florida. Its hard to argue your point. And a big problem i see is you are all looking at it from a reptile keepers point of view not a conservational point of view.
And if it did come in they are not just going to come round your house and take all your animals. but stop imports of animals and ban the sale of animals, so therefore if you cant buy them and cant import them then breeders will stop breeding them as they cant sell them. it would take many years but eventually any left in captivity will die out.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

andy007 said:


> hehe....just wondered where money would be best directed: victory:


a good question though will try and find out! on the fb group. 
either way they can both be supportive in this matter. (well you would think)


----------



## ryanr1987

Salazare Slytherin said:


> right okay lets just confirm what is happening?
> petitions have begun
> facebook has made a social group reptile keepers unite
> Log in | Facebook (not sure if it can work)
> get to your local meetings if possible to discuss this matter!
> this was also posted by a member
> *Mike *
> Everyone here needs to join the IHS... It will help this cause far more than a fb page... Go to their site and fill in the application form, it only takes a minute.
> 
> 
> not everyone who has the money will be able to do this straight away I beleive it is £22.00 but it will certainly help (how I am not sure)
> 
> 
> every little thing you can do to help no matter how little is a help,
> people saying it will never happen e.t.c
> please bear in mind it is still no good sitting back and hoping for the best, because it could happen! and that in itself is a threat. :bash:
> 
> We must unite together or fall without each other.


22 quid!!! if i had 22 quid to give away it would be going to third world country.


----------



## ratboy

leecb0 said:


> I agree with what a couple of people have said about there being a lot of melodratics on this thread.
> Thing is you can make all the petitions and crappy facebook pages you like.....sorry i just been added to a FB group and all i saw was people slagging people on the chat off. I have removed myself as this has no relevence to anything that is going on.
> While i understand peoples sentiments, there is nothing that can be done by jumping up and shouting at this time. What is really needed is getting other countries to listen and understand. this country is reasonably ok at the moment, we have a reasonble vioce within the government. but some other countries dont even know this is happening. If it does go to the law makers in europe it matters not a jot thaqt a bunch of people in the UK are not happy about it. But get the rest of europe on side then perhaps if it is going to happen then perhaps we have a chance.
> Also what blade blaster said is true, we all go on about the things that go on in the wild but when a law comes along to protect it then everybody shouts. Its a catch 22 situation although we know it isnt the best thought out proposal. We all go on about this snake wont live here or that wont live there. but what you all seem to forget they are not doing this without a huge peice of evidence of what invasive non native species can do, in Florida. Its hard to argue your point. And a big problem i see is you are all looking at it from a reptile keepers point of view not a conservational point of view.
> And if it did come in they are not just going to come round your house and take all your animals. but stop imports of animals and ban the sale of animals, so therefore if you cant buy them and cant import them then breeders will stop breeding them as they cant sell them. it would take many years but eventually any left in captivity will die out.


This ^^^^

... and just to add... once imports and breeding of commonly kept species stops leading to shops not supplying them anymore... the supply of mice and rats for sale at shops will dry up too as the hobby and demand for them shrinks.

Facebook is not a bad way of spreading the message. But the page needs to be set up by an internationally recognised body like the FBH or IHS.


----------



## leecb0

ratboy said:


> This ^^^^
> 
> ... and just to add... once imports and breeding of commonly kept species stops leading to shops not supplying them anymore... the supply of mice and rats for sale at shops will dry up too as the hobby and demand for them shrinks.
> 
> Facebook is not a bad way of spreading the message. But the page needs to be set up by an internationally recognised body like the FBH or IHS.


That Facebook page that firstly somebody added me on which i wasnt pleased about, was ok but for the total drivel that was going on on the instant chat thing, people slagging each other off and just talking crap. Personally i dont want to be associated with that type of thing, and i agree it could be a good thing if it was run by somebody with a mediocum of knowledge of what is really going on. as much as i find it hartening that many are wanting to do something im afraid this isnt what is needed.


----------



## kenneally1

leecb0 said:


> That Facebook page that firstly somebody added me on which i wasnt pleased about, was ok but for the total drivel that was going on on the instant chat thing, people slagging each other off and just talking crap. Personally i dont want to be associated with that type of thing, and i agree it could be a good thing if it was run by somebody with a mediocum of knowledge of what is really going on. as much as i find it hartening that many are wanting to do something im afraid this isnt what is needed.




I removed my self too, firstly i didn't ask to be added ( that P's me off ) and secondly i honestly don't see the point of it, if it's a bunch of kids having a go at each other:blush:


I agree its not good to Panic, but lets not leave it to late to actually do something, and by that i mean actually join Herp societies, get to meetings, write letters, lobby representatives.
Cause if the worst happens and legislation comes in that debilitates our hobby, it'll be no good people moaning " Oh, we could have done something "


Best wishes to you and Lauren BTW, for the move Lee 


regards
Nigel


----------



## spidersnake

Just where the hell will it end? You cant capture wild native species of animal on this island & now they're making non native animals illegal. Will that mean parrot keepers will need licenses? Parrots are so long lived, their origional owners die before the bird does meaning the bird(s) will need rehoming & that means more licenses for the same bird, etc.
Rabbits were bought here by the Normans after the battle of Hastings, will all rabbits need to be culled? That will have a knock on effect to wild birds like puffins (they boot the rabbits out of their warrens for themselves).
Wild scorpions in most UK docks are protected & have been here about 30 years. Is this the end for them?
Will ostrich farms be closed & domestic cows (which have undergone decades of selective breeding to produce the amounts of milk they do) will they be culled to? How far back in history will this go?
If it applies to plant species to, what about Dutch Elm Disease? We have gene-spliced elm trees that are very resistent to the disease, will they be cut down now? What about the spanish bluebells that are replacing our native ones?
The humble potato was brought here by Sir Francis Drake, lets destroy that industry while were at it shall we?

Will this apply to all immigtants like Polish, Asians, Oriental, Pakistani, etc? :lol2:

When will we unite & tell the EU politicians "Enough is enough. If you dont live here, dont tell us what we can & cant do!".


----------



## bladeblaster

spidersnake said:


> Just where the hell will it end? You cant capture wild native species of animal on this island & now they're making non native animals illegal. Will that mean parrot keepers will need licenses? Parrots are so long lived, their origional owners die before the bird does meaning the bird(s) will need rehoming & that means more licenses for the same bird, etc.
> Rabbits were bought here by the Normans after the battle of Hastings, will all rabbits need to be culled? That will have a knock on effect to wild birds like puffins (they boot the rabbits out of their warrens for themselves).
> Wild scorpions in most UK docks are protected & have been here about 30 years. Is this the end for them?
> Will ostrich farms be closed & domestic cows (which have undergone decades of selective breeding to produce the amounts of milk they do) will they be culled to? How far back in history will this go?
> If it applies to plant species to, what about Dutch Elm Disease? We have gene-spliced elm trees that are very resistent to the disease, will they be cut down now? What about the spanish bluebells that are replacing our native ones?
> The humble potato was brought here by Sir Francis Drake, lets destroy that industry while were at it shall we?
> 
> Will this apply to all immigtants like Polish, Asians, Oriental, Pakistani, etc? :lol2:
> 
> When will we unite & tell the EU politicians "Enough is enough. If you dont live here, dont tell us what we can & cant do!".


your argument of "we have always introduced non-native species, so let carry on" doesn't really hold much water does it?

I also haven't seen any farmed animals or potatoes destroy eco-systems either, here at least (goats on the Galapogas weren't such a bright idea). We HAD to import a lot of our commonly farmed crops and animals, not sure if you noticed but we live on a tiny little island, so all in all a pretty pointless argument.

One thing about the legislation that doesn't stand up to logic is that top predators, such as snakes very rarely do any major damage to entire eco-systems, they may oust another top predator but thats about it. The introduction of species near the bottom of the food chain such as insect, thats where the problems lie. A rouge insect introduction could descimate an entire eco-system in almost no time at all.


----------



## leecb0

To be fair Terry i think snake spider was having a go at the eurocrats more than anything. unless i read it differently:lol2:


----------



## leecb0

kenneally1 said:


> Best wishes to you and Lauren BTW, for the move Lee
> 
> 
> regards
> Nigel


Why thank you: victory:


----------



## bladeblaster

leecb0 said:


> To be fair Terry i think snake spider was having a go at the eurocrats more than anything. unless i read it differently:lol2:


Yeah I know, but if there is an argument to win, lets at least throw logic at them, rather than random babblings. If that argument is the best we can throw at them we may as well all sell up now while we still have chance :lol2:


----------



## secretserpents

Do you think they will take us and our views into consideration? I feel as if its been kept very quiet, this upcoming legislation. Would we be required to have a lisence for all of the animals we keep? or are they going to ban the keeping of them completely?


----------



## bladeblaster

secretserpents said:


> Do you think they will take us and our views into consideration?


why would they?

Have you read this thread, do the majority of these seem like opnions anyone is going to take seriously?

This legislation isn't about us, a fact that seems to have eluded a lot of people.


----------



## secretserpents

Id just really like to think that theres hope for the snakes and animals that we keep. Are hamsters to be treated in the same way? or chinchillas? I dont mind having to buy a license to keep snakes, but I think a complete ban on keeping them is unfair and unnessecary.


----------



## bladeblaster

secretserpents said:


> Id just really like to think that theres hope for the snakes and animals that we keep. Are hamsters to be treated in the same way? or chinchillas? I dont mind having to buy a license to keep snakes, but I think a complete ban on keeping them is unfair and unnessecary.


sigh.

If you bothered to read the thread you would see that the ban is likely to be on breeding and/or selling of, not keeping of.


----------



## ian14

Aaaand another point to bring some reality to this.
1) I am pretty certain there is already legislation concerning the import of invasive species ( bear with me, I need to find it)
2) An EU directive is NOT a new UK law. All it is is an instruction to ensure that legislation in member states fits the EU directive. The Wildlife and Countryside Act does just that.
3_ the Human Rights Act provides an article to enjoy freedom of private life. All new EU "laws" must fit this.
So, a ban is rather unlikely.
As I have said before, this ban has been threatened (and unpubliciced) before. It is nonsense, it won't happen.
I have seen the same scare-monger story appear and reappear for the last 20 years, funny then that the hobby is still legal.


----------



## Chris Newman

ian14 said:


> As I have said before, this ban has been threatened (and unpubliciced) before. It is nonsense, it won't happen.
> I have seen the same scare-monger story appear and reappear for the last 20 years, funny then that the hobby is still legal.


Personally I would advise against adopting the *ostrich position*, i.e. sticking your head in the sand with your posterior exposed uppermost, simple because this allows someone with a very large, very sharp stick to approach you unseen – thus enabling them to insert said large sharp stick somewhere jolly uncomfortable, something they may not have done had you been observant! Obviously the choose is your, but vigilance I would have thought prudent!!


----------



## satre08

not meaning to sound dumb but i'm a little confused by this? 

are the EU trying to ban the keeping of reptiles? or bring in some kind of license to keep them? 

if they are worried about the keeping of invasive species what happens when they bring in laws banning them?are we supposed to just suddenly stop keeping everything? do they destroy our pets? or do we set them free? in which case they'd become invasive anyway......

no hatred please but a law requiring a license for certain reptiles may not be such a bad idea.....currently anyone over 16 can walk into a pet shop and buy a burmese python......

sorry for the ramble i'm just a bit confused :blush:


----------



## EquineArcher

Chris Newman said:


> Personally I would advise against adopting the *ostrich position*, i.e. sticking your head in the sand with your posterior exposed uppermost, simple because this allows someone with a very large, very sharp stick to approach you unseen – thus enabling them to insert said large sharp stick somewhere jolly uncomfortable, something they may not have done had you been observant! Obviously the choose is your, but vigilance I would have thought prudent!!


I've re-posted your letter on the Cornsnake Forum Chris, but its been greeted with " lol, that won't happen, lets ignore it."


----------



## ratboy

To be quite frank, I am stunned that domestic cats have escaped from this and previous legislation unscathed if what someone posted earlier is true... That one animal does more to damage our natural wildlife than any other invasive species I can think of with large numbers of feral animals going unchecked.


----------



## Khanidge

andy007 said:


> hehe....just wondered where money would be best directed: victory:


Any Reptile Club that is affiliated with the FBH, these clubs donate a percentage to the fund or you can donate directly here..............

Federation of British Herpetologists 

or here

ERAC - Essex Reptiles & Amphibian Club

Regards Dean................................


----------



## ju5t1n

having read through the majority of this post ive come to the conclusion that eu parliment are a bunch of *&^%$ makes you chuckle though there outing all these dictators around the world yet they are trying to dictate for us, this seems to me like a law that just simply isnt going to work i wouldnt like to put a number on the amount of reptiles dotted up and down the uk you think about it they would have to set up a "anti reptile police army" just to take them away i can not see our government no matter how far they are up the backside of the eu actually spending millions if not billions on taking our reptiles away!!!
or is this a police matter :mf_dribble: if it is it will fail they can not even respond to real crimes let alone nosey neighbours squeeling us up.
then there is the issue with health and safety if we all made the sarounding area around our vivs unsafe in there eyes they would have too first complete a full method statement and risk assessment(3weeks) construct a scafolding on the run up too the viv (weeks work) then have to get site huts and a canteen outside your house oh and toilet( 4 weeks) and then eventually try and take your reptile away so we are looking at atleast 2 months notice before they take it :lol2::lol2:


----------



## mattsdragons

i doubt this will come into effect in the uK.

most of the species we commonly keep could not live through our winters and we dont have everglades we can dump snakes into :lol2:


----------



## Khanidge

mattsdragons said:


> i doubt this will come into effect in the uK.
> 
> most of the species we commonly keep could not live through our winters and we dont have everglades we can dump snakes into :lol2:



You've missed the point... We are now part of EUROPE Thus have to abide by the EUROPEAN Laws.....


----------



## StuG

Even if this never comes into effect or it is going to come into effect and there is nothing that can be done to stop it would it really be such a bad thing for the reptile communtity to show a bit of a united front and have the mechanisms in place to to be able to lunch a united and directed protest should the need arise?


I would like to see the IHS and FBH raise their profiles and attract more positive publicity. Warren Booth's findings on parthenogenis (sp) attracted National media interests which proves there is an interest from the general public and it can demonstrate the hobby in a positive light. 

I feel us keepers need to put aside personal and vested interests. Every argumentative thread on cheap imports, morphs, live feeding and treatmentsis potentially detrimental to the hobby.

I would like to see information readily available at grassroots level (i.e in petshops) on the IHS or FBH's views on these issue's and also advice on husbandry, locks and wedges to used on vivs etc, recommended vets etc. 

I think that by being pro active and tackling potential problems from within the community would take away alot of the ammunition from people who would like to see an end to keeping reptiles in captivity.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Stu.G said:


> Even if this never comes into effect or it is going to come into effect and there is nothing that can be done to stop it would it really be such a bad thing for the reptile communtity to show a bit of a united front and have the mechanisms in place to to be able to lunch a united and directed protest should the need arise?
> 
> 
> I would like to see the IHS and FBH raise their profiles and attract more positive publicity. Warren Booth's findings on parthenogenis (sp) attracted National media interests which proves there is an interest from the general public and it can demonstrate the hobby in a positive light.
> 
> I feel us keepers need to put aside personal and vested interests. Every argumentative thread on cheap imports, morphs, live feeding and treatmentsis potentially detrimental to the hobby.
> 
> I would like to see information readily available at grassroots level (i.e in petshops) on the IHS or FBH's views on these issue's and also advice on husbandry, locks and wedges to used on vivs etc, recommended vets etc.
> 
> I think that by being pro active and tackling potential problems from within the community would take away alot of the ammunition from people who would like to see an end to keeping reptiles in captivity.


 
I like the sound of most of that to be honest.
The thing is I neither know not much knowledge about either of those associations, and where meetings e.t.c would normally take place. 
this is something that should be mentioned for keepers such as myself.: victory:


----------



## Gaboon

Stu.G said:


> Even if this never comes into effect or it is going to come into effect and there is nothing that can be done to stop it would it really be such a bad thing for the reptile communtity to show a bit of a united front and have the mechanisms in place to to be able to lunch a united and directed protest should the need arise?
> 
> 
> I would like to see the IHS and FBH raise their profiles and attract more positive publicity. Warren Booth's findings on parthenogenis (sp) attracted National media interests which proves there is an interest from the general public and it can demonstrate the hobby in a positive light.
> 
> I feel us keepers need to put aside personal and vested interests. Every argumentative thread on cheap imports, morphs, live feeding and treatmentsis potentially detrimental to the hobby.
> 
> I would like to see information readily available at grassroots level (i.e in petshops) on the IHS or FBH's views on these issue's and also advice on husbandry, locks and wedges to used on vivs etc, recommended vets etc.
> 
> I think that by being pro active and tackling potential problems from within the community would take away alot of the ammunition from people who would like to see an end to keeping reptiles in captivity.


Spot on.


----------



## bladeblaster

ju5t1n said:


> having read through the majority of this post ive come to the conclusion that eu parliment are a bunch of *&^%$ makes you chuckle though there outing all these dictators around the world yet they are trying to dictate for us, this seems to me like a law that just simply isnt going to work i wouldnt like to put a number on the amount of reptiles dotted up and down the uk you think about it they would have to set up a "anti reptile police army" just to take them away i can not see our government no matter how far they are up the backside of the eu actually spending millions if not billions on taking our reptiles away!!!
> or is this a police matter :mf_dribble: if it is it will fail they can not even respond to real crimes let alone nosey neighbours squeeling us up.
> then there is the issue with health and safety if we all made the sarounding area around our vivs unsafe in there eyes they would have too first complete a full method statement and risk assessment(3weeks) construct a scafolding on the run up too the viv (weeks work) then have to get site huts and a canteen outside your house oh and toilet( 4 weeks) and then eventually try and take your reptile away so we are looking at atleast 2 months notice before they take it :lol2::lol2:


so you not read the thread then?



mattsdragons said:


> i doubt this will come into effect in the uK.
> 
> most of the species we commonly keep could not live through our winters and we dont have everglades we can dump snakes into :lol2:


Lots of species could, and some actually do, survive our winters. 



Stu.G said:


> I think that by being pro active and tackling potential problems from within the community would take away alot of the ammunition from people who would like to see an end to keeping reptiles in captivity.


Unfortunately Stu the anti-pet keeping lobbies tend to rely on lies and propoganda as it is. Nothing will change their minds.


----------



## GeckoD

As worrying this is...
I think the point is they are still working out a black and white list and are in discussion on whether to implement an EU wide legislation regarding the lists they make or whether to work out individual state lists ie; as stated before, whether a particular non native species could potentially survive to become a threat to native species. 
Definitely something to follow...when the time is right it might be worth voting on the particulars as opposed to opposing the whole thing altogether! 
The organisations will know when to unite and recruit support for the cause, I think we just need to watch and wait: victory:

In the mean time, be a responsible keeper and promote awareness...

The British government has never made a habit of conforming to ALL EU legislation they have tried to impose in the UK, so don't give them a reason to!:2thumb:


----------



## riley165

*ello*

Has anyone read the report properly?

From what I have just gathered this is mainly aimed at fisheries and plants etc nothing mentioned about reptile keeping eradication or anything as severe as what were all thinking its purely control measures this report is basically a risk assessment governing long term environment effects that irresponsible keepers could cause?

I agree with most of your comments and nobody was more worried than I was when I fist herd about this but if we all have tighter measures by keeping reptiles isnt this more beneficial to the animals welfare and stop the likes of the pot noodle herper just popping down the pet shop and buying a cheap snake and getting bored with it a few months later and letting it go in the garden?

I think we should all be held responsible for our animals i certainly wouldnt mind having my animals registered to me and if regular checks were required by governing bodies to ensure my animals were correctly cared for then so be it! it isnt about me or any other keeper its do with the animals and making sure our native species arnt threatened through idiots who cant look after there animals.

If I have said something out of turn here i do apologise i am tired and just read the report as i see it.

No doubt i will be slated for this but if this stops the local scallys just walking in to a pet shop and buying a reptile for the cool factor then i am all for it!
:2thumb:


----------



## StuG

bladeblaster said:


> so you not read the thread then?
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of species could, and some actually do, survive our winters.
> 
> 
> 
> *Unfortunately Stu the anti-pet keeping lobbies tend to rely on lies and propoganda as it is. Nothing will change their minds*.


 
I agree but when it comes to a situation where both sides present their case's to the general public, politicians and the media etc having evidence of precautionary measures taken to prevent whatever the current cause for concern is can only help.
On the FBH website is a code of practice for keeping large constrictors. I can't actually view it as the link is down but if someone were to to be killed by a large constrictor it's good to able to show that before the event happened preventative steps and advice were given even if it gets ignored. 
In this situation it would be good if for the species listed as being potentially invasive that at the point of sale one of the organisations provided a caresheet on which were recommendations of how to securely lock vivs, recommended housing, advice on finding an escapee etc.
I realise that im probably sounding a bit niave and idealistic but i think that politicians will fight for whichever causes they feel have the most public support so anything that helps towards generating that support has to be tried.


----------



## StuG

riley165 said:


> Has anyone read the report properly?
> 
> From what I have just gathered this is mainly aimed at fisheries and plants etc nothing mentioned about reptile keeping eradication or anything as severe as what were all thinking its purely control measures this report is basically a risk assessment governing long term environment effects that irresponsible keepers could cause?
> 
> I agree with most of your comments and nobody was more worried than I was when I fist herd about this but if we all have tighter measures by keeping reptiles isnt this more beneficial to the animals welfare and stop the likes of the pot noodle herper just popping down the pet shop and buying a cheap snake and getting bored with it a few months later and letting it go in the garden?
> 
> I think we should all be held responsible for our animals i certainly wouldnt mind having my animals registered to me and if regular checks were required by governing bodies to ensure my animals were correctly cared for then so be it! it isnt about me or any other keeper its do with the animals and making sure our native species arnt threatened through idiots who cant look after there animals.
> 
> If I have said something out of turn here i do apologise i am tired and just read the report as i see it.
> 
> No doubt i will be slated for this but if this stops the local scallys just walking in to a pet shop and buying a reptile for the cool factor then i am all for it!
> :2thumb:


 
I agree with your post's sentiments but would like to see the pressure for more responsible keeping come from within (I.E IHS or FBH) rather than E.U and/or government legislation. 
I feel there is already too much interferance to civil liberties from legislation and even if it's only one species of reptile that is effected it will be seen and used as a moral victory by anti's and as a precedent for any future restrictive legislation that maybe implemented


----------



## bladeblaster

Stu.G said:


> I agree but when it comes to a situation where both sides present their case's to the general public, politicians and the media etc having evidence of precautionary measures taken to prevent whatever the current cause for concern is can only help.
> On the FBH website is a code of practice for keeping large constrictors. I can't actually view it as the link is down but if someone were to to be killed by a large constrictor it's good to able to show that before the event happened preventative steps and advice were given even if it gets ignored.
> In this situation it would be good if for the species listed as being potentially invasive that at the point of sale one of the organisations provided a caresheet on which were recommendations of how to securely lock vivs, recommended housing, advice on finding an escapee etc.
> I realise that im probably sounding a bit niave and idealistic but i think that politicians will fight for whichever causes they feel have the most public support so anything that helps towards generating that support has to be tried.


I agree entirely with your sentiments mate, and I think it would be a very good idea. Thing is it is always just going to be a 'suggested code of conduct' it's not enforcable by anyone, and would therefore carry very little weight in a debate of this kind.


----------



## Chris Newman

SexyBear77 said:


> I've re-posted your letter on the Cornsnake Forum Chris, but its been greeted with " lol, that won't happen, lets ignore it."


The _ostrich position_ is one favoured by many animal keepers – keep my head down and it will never happen. Understandable as it is unhelpful, *this legislation will happen*, the only question is how draconian will it be, and what species will it effect!

So far in discussions two taxa have been mentioned, red-eared terrapins [understandably] and Californian kingsnakes. The discussion on red-eared terrapins has lead for calls on the prohibition of all North American terrapins from import and possession! Californian kingsnakes are in the firing line because of the population that is established on the Canary Islands! So are corn snakes safe – could corn snakes establish and breed in lets say Spain?


----------



## Oderus

I never knew about the king snakes Chris but there is supposed to be a colony of Centruroides gracilis there, so having a set of islands off the coast of Africa being part of an EU country could be a bit of a boggle axe in this regard.


----------



## Chris Newman

Stu.G said:


> I agree with your post's sentiments but would like to see the pressure for more responsible keeping come from within (I.E IHS or FBH) rather than E.U and/or government legislation.
> I feel there is already too much interferance to civil liberties from legislation and even if it's only one species of reptile that is effected it will be seen and used as a moral victory by anti's and as a precedent for any future restrictive legislation that maybe implemented


I absolutely agree with many of the points that you have raised, I am fully aware that the FBH is not as open and transparent as it should be and I am also acutely aware that it is not as interactive [publically] with keepers as it should be. These are legitimate criticisms and ones for which I personally accept full responsibility. Over the passed six month several meetings have been held to try and address these fallings and find ways forward, but progress is slow. There are problems with achieving these aims, not least off all is myself because I dislike any kind of publicity and simply prefer to get things done rather than talk about it. However, there are times when you need help, such as now. Change is happening and we need to find better ways to communicate with keepers, the question is how?


----------



## StuG

Chris Newman said:


> I absolutely agree with many of the points that you have raised, I am fully aware that the FBH is not as open and transparent as it should be and I am also acutely aware that it is not as interactive [publically] with keepers as it should be. These are legitimate criticisms and ones for which I personally accept full responsibility. Over the passed six month several meetings have been held to try and address these fallings and find ways forward, but progress is slow. There are problems with achieving these aims, not least off all is myself because I dislike any kind of publicity and simply prefer to get things done rather than talk about it. However, there are times when you need help, such as now. Change is happening and we need to find better ways to communicate with keepers, the question is how?


 
One thing i have been thinking about would be for the FBH run an annual membership for petshops. The membership would not be a guarentee of the petshops standards or animal welfare.
The petshop would pay an annual fee (something around £20) in return for which they would receive (initially) standardised caresheets for Corns, Boa's, Royal Pythons, Burms and Retics. The shop would photocopy these and dispense them at point of sale.
On one side of the caresheet would be info on the reptiles care and relevant info to the species (i.e dangers of giant constrictors etc). The other side would have information on the FBH,recommended websites, info on where and how to report poor standards and useful contact numbers.
The paperwork could also double as a kind of passport for the animal( applicable only for that years hatchlings, not a genetic guarentee).
The shop would also be sent a monthly leaflet regarding current issues that the shop would be expected to to photocopy (e.g 20x)
In return for the £20 fee the petshop would be listed on the FBH website plus the potential trade benefits of being FBH affiliated could bring.

The benefits it would bring are the FBH would be reaching casual reptile enthusiasts, people who may be unaware of possible issue's effecting the hobby, people who don't use the internet etc, also as a way to raise funds (advertising and sponsership of the paperwork plus the fee the shop pays)that in turn may eventually be able to pay for full time staff.
It would be "policed" by trusted members of the FBH in the area local to the petshop. My understanding is that you yourself have put in a lot of time and effort in building up good relationships with the government and fighting for herpers rights so to ask members for something back seems fair to me. 
The caresheets for each species would be written by a recognised expert in each field from the FBH,nothing controversial but standard info agreed to at a meeting.
You could target specific high profile shops to begin a pilot scheme, positive publicity to them which in turn could bring others on board. Smaller shops could be canvassed by volunteers.
If successful it could be extended to private breeders and importers (the paperwork side of things). 

If supported by the reptile buying public (i.e it became easier to sell a rep with FBH paperwork than without) im sure it would be a success. A huge numvber of sales are done through the classifieds on here, i have seen pressure from threads on the main forums totally kill sales and even have snakes removed from imports.
I would also like to see a sticky in the the snake and lizard sections explaining what the FBH is, link to the website and mission statement on both here and captive bred.


----------



## Gaboon

I still don't understand how they are projecting potential for invasion per taxa? Bioclimatic envelope modeling methods spring to mind but many of the more popular integration methods for these have been recently scrutinised with damning results. There are better modeling methods (e.g. MaxEnt) now proposed, will these be utilised? 

They need to consider the longterm affects on those taxa deemed not potentially invasive and so legal to trade within the EU. Surely these will become more desirable in the hobby? 

They also need to consider that established invasive populations are there in a large part due to the (then) naivety and infancy of our hobby. All populations established will have a similar story involving a large influx of individuals allowing that species a sporting chance of establishment. 

I think the fact that the EU is not overrun by populations of hundreds of species traded and bred in captivity speaks volumes, we in fact harbor a mere handful. We on the whole recognise the potential for invasive species ecosystem disturbance and so take our own precautions. This is one reason we don't need trading restrictions. 

It appears we are being lumped in with the real threats, gardeners. If you want to see a trade that really disrupts native ecosystems the gardening trade is the one. No disrespect intended to any green fingered friends, I have always felt this way. It a comparison which simply highlights what this proposal is intending to mitigate. Herps on the other hand I believe are just being lumped in.


----------



## emmabee

Chris Newman said:


> The _ostrich position_ is one favoured by many animal keepers – keep my head down and it will never happen. Understandable as it is unhelpful, *this legislation will happen*, the only question is how draconian will it be, and what species will it effect!
> 
> So far in discussions two taxa have been mentioned, red-eared terrapins [understandably] and Californian kingsnakes. The discussion on red-eared terrapins has lead for calls on the prohibition of all North American terrapins from import and possession! Californian kingsnakes are in the firing line because of the population that is established on the Canary Islands! So are corn snakes safe – could corn snakes establish and breed in lets say Spain?


i lived in spain for years an unfortunately a lot of species would be able to survive there, however many that we have here and take for granted arent common. i had never seen a corn snake until i moved back here!



Chris Newman said:


> I absolutely agree with many of the points that you have raised, I am fully aware that the FBH is not as open and transparent as it should be and I am also acutely aware that it is not as interactive [publically] with keepers as it should be. These are legitimate criticisms and ones for which I personally accept full responsibility. Over the passed six month several meetings have been held to try and address these fallings and find ways forward, but progress is slow. There are problems with achieving these aims, not least off all is myself because I dislike any kind of publicity and simply prefer to get things done rather than talk about it. However, there are times when you need help, such as now. Change is happening and we need to find better ways to communicate with keepers, the question is how?


maybe you need to call on somebody who doesnt mind public speaking or publicity and would be happy to act as a voice for you, and for us too?
that way the press can be delt with and we can put our concerns over to you better.
not many of us have ever met you or are even aware of the organisations and i think time for more publicity is upon you now.
the last page or so of posts have been really valid points and ideas in how to take the hobby forwards in a way thet reflects well on all.


----------



## ian14

Chris, do you really understand how EU "law" works?? Equally, your bizarre remark about red ear terrapins shows a lack of knowledge of the UK position - they CANNOT be imported, this was banned years ago along with NA bullfrog tadpoles! There has been no discussion relating to the import of other US terrapins. And cali kings?? Where is that from?? When did the Canary Islands become part of the EU?
Aesculapian snakes breed in the UK, but why is there no mention of this species?
As I have said before, an EU Directive is simply that, an indication that member states should consider a law to control whatever the directive is for. An example. The EU said all prisoners should be allowed to vote. Accepted? No. Stop spreading the old line of "our hobby is being banned", it just isn't the case. And the sad "bury the head in the sand" argument doesn't help. You have spread this rumour for decades. I don't see the hobby currently under threat.


----------



## Chris Newman

ian14 said:


> Chris, do you really understand how EU "law" works?? Equally, your bizarre remark about red ear terrapins shows a lack of knowledge of the UK position - they CANNOT be imported, this was banned years ago along with NA bullfrog tadpoles! There has been no discussion relating to the import of other US terrapins. And cali kings?? Where is that from?? When did the Canary Islands become part of the EU?
> Aesculapian snakes breed in the UK, but why is there no mention of this species?
> As I have said before, an EU Directive is simply that, an indication that member states should consider a law to control whatever the directive is for. An example. The EU said all prisoners should be allowed to vote. Accepted? No. Stop spreading the old line of "our hobby is being banned", it just isn't the case. And the sad "bury the head in the sand" argument doesn't help. You have spread this rumour for decades. I don't see the hobby currently under threat.


Yes Ian I am very familiar with how the EU work, I regular attend meeting and participate in working groups at the Commission. You appear to be a little unfamiliar yourself so let me explain the difference between a Regulation and a Directive, this might assist you. In fact let me give you a link which might be better:

Regulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union)
Directive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_(European_Union)

I hope the above clarifies the situation for you.

You are quite right red-eared terrapins _Trachemys scripta elegans _were prohibited from import in to the EU in 1998. However, sale of, keeping of and breeding of red-eared terrapins has not, as yet been prohibited. Currently it is legal to import other subspecies of _Trachemys scripta _which are proving to be just as invasive in some parts of the EU as _Trachemys scripta elegans_. You suggestion there has been no discussion on this within the Commission is false.

As regards to the Canary Islands, they are part of Spain, Spain as you may or may not be aware is part of the EU! The Canary Islands themselves have a curious status, they are part of the EU for some political reasons, and not part when it is convenient. Notwithstanding this Californian Kingsnakes have been raised as an example under the current EU proposals, weather you personally accept this is entirely up to you, in reality its irrelevant the fact is it has. 

So to conclude this discussion, it’s your personal view the reptile hobby has never been under threat in this country, is that what you are really saying?


----------



## Chris Newman

Stu.G said:


> One thing i have been thinking about would be for the FBH run an annual membership for petshops. The membership would not be a guarentee of the petshops standards or animal welfare.
> The petshop would pay an annual fee (something around £20) in return for which they would receive (initially) standardised caresheets for Corns, Boa's, Royal Pythons, Burms and Retics. The shop would photocopy these and dispense them at point of sale.
> On one side of the caresheet would be info on the reptiles care and relevant info to the species (i.e dangers of giant constrictors etc). The other side would have information on the FBH,recommended websites, info on where and how to report poor standards and useful contact numbers.
> The paperwork could also double as a kind of passport for the animal( applicable only for that years hatchlings, not a genetic guarentee).
> The shop would also be sent a monthly leaflet regarding current issues that the shop would be expected to to photocopy (e.g 20x)
> In return for the £20 fee the petshop would be listed on the FBH website plus the potential trade benefits of being FBH affiliated could bring.
> 
> The benefits it would bring are the FBH would be reaching casual reptile enthusiasts, people who may be unaware of possible issue's effecting the hobby, people who don't use the internet etc, also as a way to raise funds (advertising and sponsership of the paperwork plus the fee the shop pays)that in turn may eventually be able to pay for full time staff.
> It would be "policed" by trusted members of the FBH in the area local to the petshop. My understanding is that you yourself have put in a lot of time and effort in building up good relationships with the government and fighting for herpers rights so to ask members for something back seems fair to me.
> The caresheets for each species would be written by a recognised expert in each field from the FBH,nothing controversial but standard info agreed to at a meeting.
> You could target specific high profile shops to begin a pilot scheme, positive publicity to them which in turn could bring others on board. Smaller shops could be canvassed by volunteers.
> If successful it could be extended to private breeders and importers (the paperwork side of things).
> 
> If supported by the reptile buying public (i.e it became easier to sell a rep with FBH paperwork than without) im sure it would be a success. A huge numvber of sales are done through the classifieds on here, i have seen pressure from threads on the main forums totally kill sales and even have snakes removed from imports.
> I would also like to see a sticky in the the snake and lizard sections explaining what the FBH is, link to the website and mission statement on both here and captive bred.


Stu,

In the UK we have two organisations that represent the reptilian interests, one for trade and one for keepers, let me quote from our joint submission to the last CITES cop where we made a counter proposal to that of CoP15Prop.14, Islamic Republic of Iran, proposal for Inclusion in Appendix I Kaiser's Spotted Newt, _Neurergus kaiseri_. Regrettably because with the EU we have no cohesion between keepers and industry the proposal failed to be adopted by the EU who vote as a block, the result is _Neurergus kaiseri _will now almost undoubtedly become extinct in the wild, as ultimately in will in private hands in captive, which is a shame. Any way I digress, here is the info:-

*The Federation of British Herpetologists* was formed in 1996 to unite and represent the interests of private reptile and amphibian keepers & it exists to promote and support the responsible keeping of reptiles & amphibians by individuals in the UK. Its primary objectives are: 


To represent the legitimate interests of UK reptile keepers at national level
 

To oppose unnecessary regulation/ legislation
 

To manage a national information base of key facts/ issues/ statistics relating to reptile & amphibian keeping
 
*The Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association* formed in 2005, to represent the interests of the UK reptile industry. Its primary objectives are:


To protect the reptile trade from excessive, or over restrictive, legislation.
 

To raise the reptile trade to a position where it is above reproach in regards to animal welfare, professionalism and ethics.
 

To actively encourage breeders to supply captive bred animals to the trade
 
_The UK has a long tradition of keeping reptiles and amphibians in captivity, with records dating back to the 1600’s. More species of reptiles and amphibians have been bred in captivity for the first time by private keepers than have been bred by all of the zoological institutions combined. Today in the UK more than one million households keep in excess of eight million reptiles and amphibians & the reptile industry is valued at over one hundred million £ annually. _

Ok, onto some of the points you raised. As I am sure you are aware we now have what is called the Animal Welfare Act, the AWA came into force in 2007. The AWA was without question the single biggest threat we as keepers had ever faced, you may recall some of the reports published at the time, ‘Far From Home’, ‘Handel With Care’, ‘Morbidity and Mortality in Private Reptile Husbandry’, all calling for sever restrictions or prohibitions on private keepers, the AWB *could* have been catastrophic for us, the fact it wasn’t, is I would suggest not ignoring the threat but engaging with it! 

The AWA was to be underpinned with what are called Codes of Practice, such codes would be the keepers defence in law, if you are complaint with the code that would be your defence. If you did not comply with the code it would be your obligation to prove you case. Regrettably as is so often the case with legislation, once it’s enacted it fails to continue to be a priority. The Act came into force in April 2007, we _should_ have had Secondary legislation and Codes of Practice by 2008, in fact the codes for dogs and cats did not come into effect until 2010, at that time government said it not do codes for anything else other than cat, dog, equine and primates, everything else other than game birds being abandoned. The codes are imperative, as I said they are you defence, no code no defence!!

This is a very longwinded way of saying many of the points you raised are in progress, they are juts painfully slow. Care sheets are a priority, but until we had some direction from government as to what they expected to see if was very difficult to draft them! The FBH has produced Codes of Practise for quite some time, for example Large Constrictors. Because of the AWB would could not call our codes, Codes of Practice, as such all codes have to be laid before parliament and there was not time or funding to do this!!

It has taken until this year to find political solutions to this, we now have the green light and it is full steam ahead to get things done. In terms of care sheets our first one went live on Friday http://www.ornamentalfish.org/membersonly/cs_aquatic_reptiles/100%20Terrapins%20and%20turtles

This was done in conjunction with OATA [Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association] REPTA and OATA will collaborate on species we have a common interest, i.e. aquatic species, and REPTA and FBH will collaborate of the others. Hopefully within the next month or so many will be online.

I also hope that we will be able to go live with the Good Practice Guidelines for reptiles in the not to distant future.


----------



## Chris Newman

emmabee said:


> i lived in spain for years an unfortunately a lot of species would be able to survive there, however many that we have here and take for granted arent common. i had never seen a corn snake until i moved back here!.


That is the point; it is the potential not necessarily what is currently the case, i.e. prevention! The non-native species issue is a very serious issue, we cannot deny that, just look at the disaster in Australia with marine toads! Or another example is the Burmese pythons in Florida! Red-eared terrapins in Spain and Italy are not a million miles behind!! Despite the protestations from the ill-informed this legislation *will* happen, the only question is *how* draconian or disastrous it will be from our perspective as keepers. If some keepers wish to adopt the *ostrich position* that is entirely up to them, I just hope the more sensible keepers will become interested, and when the time comes involved!!


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## norfendz

anyone got the facebook link?


----------



## StuG

Chris Newman said:


> Stu,
> 
> In the UK we have two organisations that represent the reptilian interests, one for trade and one for keepers, let me quote from our joint submission to the last CITES cop where we made a counter proposal to that of CoP15Prop.14, Islamic Republic of Iran, proposal for Inclusion in Appendix I Kaiser's Spotted Newt, _Neurergus kaiseri_. Regrettably because with the EU we have no cohesion between keepers and industry the proposal failed to be adopted by the EU who vote as a block, the result is _Neurergus kaiseri _will now almost undoubtedly become extinct in the wild, as ultimately in will in private hands in captive, which is a shame. Any way I digress, here is the info:-
> 
> *The Federation of British Herpetologists* was formed in 1996 to unite and represent the interests of private reptile and amphibian keepers & it exists to promote and support the responsible keeping of reptiles & amphibians by individuals in the UK. Its primary objectives are:
> 
> 
> To represent the legitimate interests of UK reptile keepers at national level
> 
> To oppose unnecessary regulation/ legislation
> 
> To manage a national information base of key facts/ issues/ statistics relating to reptile & amphibian keeping
> *The Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association* formed in 2005, to represent the interests of the UK reptile industry. Its primary objectives are:
> 
> 
> To protect the reptile trade from excessive, or over restrictive, legislation.
> 
> To raise the reptile trade to a position where it is above reproach in regards to animal welfare, professionalism and ethics.
> 
> To actively encourage breeders to supply captive bred animals to the trade
> _The UK has a long tradition of keeping reptiles and amphibians in captivity, with records dating back to the 1600’s. More species of reptiles and amphibians have been bred in captivity for the first time by private keepers than have been bred by all of the zoological institutions combined. Today in the UK more than one million households keep in excess of eight million reptiles and amphibians & the reptile industry is valued at over one hundred million £ annually. _
> 
> Ok, onto some of the points you raised. As I am sure you are aware we now have what is called the Animal Welfare Act, the AWA came into force in 2007. The AWA was without question the single biggest threat we as keepers had ever faced, you may recall some of the reports published at the time, ‘Far From Home’, ‘Handel With Care’, ‘Morbidity and Mortality in Private Reptile Husbandry’, all calling for sever restrictions or prohibitions on private keepers, the AWB *could* have been catastrophic for us, the fact it wasn’t, is I would suggest not ignoring the threat but engaging with it!
> 
> The AWA was to be underpinned with what are called Codes of Practice, such codes would be the keepers defence in law, if you are complaint with the code that would be your defence. If you did not comply with the code it would be your obligation to prove you case. Regrettably as is so often the case with legislation, once it’s enacted it fails to continue to be a priority. The Act came into force in April 2007, we _should_ have had Secondary legislation and Codes of Practice by 2008, in fact the codes for dogs and cats did not come into effect until 2010, at that time government said it not do codes for anything else other than cat, dog, equine and primates, everything else other than game birds being abandoned. The codes are imperative, as I said they are you defence, no code no defence!!
> 
> This is a very longwinded way of saying many of the points you raised are in progress, they are juts painfully slow. Care sheets are a priority, but until we had some direction from government as to what they expected to see if was very difficult to draft them! The FBH has produced Codes of Practise for quite some time, for example Large Constrictors. Because of the AWB would could not call our codes, Codes of Practice, as such all codes have to be laid before parliament and there was not time or funding to do this!!
> 
> It has taken until this year to find political solutions to this, we now have the green light and it is full steam ahead to get things done. In terms of care sheets our first one went live on Friday http://www.ornamentalfish.org/membersonly/cs_aquatic_reptiles/100%20Terrapins%20and%20turtles
> 
> This was done in conjunction with OATA [Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association] REPTA and OATA will collaborate on species we have a common interest, i.e. aquatic species, and REPTA and FBH will collaborate of the others. Hopefully within the next month or so many will be online.
> 
> I also hope that we will be able to go live with the Good Practice Guidelines for reptiles in the not to distant future.


 
Hi Chris and thanks for the info and congratulations on the good work.
When i first started keeping snakes seriously i was talking to someone from work about my snakes and a woman in the office overheard.

She worked voluntarily for the RSPCA doing checks on homes suitable for rehousing dogs and cats.
I was totally shocked at her complete and utter hatred of reptiles being kept as pets. She launched into an attack on how cruel it was,that i faced almost certain death from salmonella, my snakes (at the time i had a corn and a BCI) would without doubt kill me, my neighbours cats and every dog in the neighbourhood. That my snakes had been evilly taken from the wild and countless other popular myths and misconceptions.
As i tried to reply she just walked off, ever since then she has been frosty with me at best. 

Except that one example most of the reactions i have had to mentioning snakes have been met with curious and positive interest but that experience left me in no doubt the lengths some people would go to in seeing and supporting any forms of ban and restriction on the reptile trade.


Im not sure why the subject divides keepers so much, i think some of the reactions are similar to a parent being told they have a badly behaved child in a school report. It's close to home and an uncomfortable subject but i am certain that in politics today whoever shouts loudest gets the support of the politicians regardless of moral rights and wrongs, there are factions calling for keeping to be banned and we need a voice to at least match them and it's because of this i am fully behind the FBH and IHS and will offer as much support as i can when im in a position to do so.


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## Rthompson

All I can say is I am now in the process of training my water dragons to bite on command...

I will not have my family taken from me.. yes.. my animals ARE my family, and Anything I can do to stop this then I'll be right up in the front lines fighting it.


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## JonnyB359

If everyone were to send a letter to their MP informing him/her of the subject and your worries/views then this can work to great effect as an MP will have to bring the subject up in parliament if he has had a couple of letters. Also, other people who have had letters will then get involved etc.

Just a thought.:whistling2:


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## PaleRider

Isn't the key to this the "able to become established" part? I doubt whether many of your cresties, beardies, leos, CWDs, basilisks, iggies etc. etc. etc. could sensibly be classed as species which can establish sustained breeding colonies on our shores, so why the frenzy?

I realise that this is an attempt to form an EU wide directive, but with the hugely wide range of climates, which we enjoy in the EU, a one size fits all approach will not be adopted.

I would hope that someone has already made this point, but I can't be arsed wading through umpteen pages of hand-wringing and outrage to see. Sorry about that. :whistling2:


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## angelgirls29

This been re-posted recently?

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...71751-invasive-non-native-species-policy.html


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## angelgirls29

PaleRider said:


> Isn't the key to this the "able to become established" part? I doubt whether many of your cresties, beardies, leos, CWDs, basilisks, iggies etc. etc. etc. could sensibly be classed as species which can establish sustained breeding colonies on our shores, so why the frenzy?
> 
> I realise that this is an attempt to form an EU wide directive, but with the hugely wide range of climates, which we enjoy in the EU, a *one size fits all approach will not be adopted.*
> 
> I would hope that someone has already made this point, but I can't be arsed wading through umpteen pages of hand-wringing and outrage to see. Sorry about that. :whistling2:


That is what they are tring to do because of free trade within the EU :whistling2:


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## longqi

From a very biased point of view I actually support this move

How many species will no longer be forcibly removed from their native habitats to be exported to an area where few would survive in the wild??

I can totally understand why keepers would get upset up your way
But down here the reptiles would smile a little bit I think


----------



## Gaboon

longqi said:


> From a very biased point of view I actually support this move
> 
> How many species will no longer be forcibly removed from their native habitats to be exported to an area where few would survive in the wild??
> 
> I can totally understand why keepers would get upset up your way
> But down here the reptiles would smile a little bit I think


If anything, in the long run places like Bali may be under increasing pressure to export WC/CF animals. A blanket ban on all exotics is not realistically being proposed rather a ban on potentially EU invasive species. Hence tropical species may be deemed more desirable if such legislation comes to pass.


----------



## xSophiex

ignore me, just read the whole thing.


----------



## Sucuri

*Jackson's project (forwarding)*

Hi, this came my way, I think this young man can get very far with his charismatic approach, please support!:no1:




Jackson’s Project Update « BoaConstrictor.com Blog

"
We are trying to get this project complete by April 24, so Please send your pictures.
Hello, We need your Help collecting Photos of People with Their Reptiles:

YouTube - Jackson Stone's Project (Click this for Jackson’s Project)

Please click on this Link and help me get as many pictures as I can to put in a short 3 minute video. You’re your picture will appear for .2 seconds along with hundreds of others. This project will help show support for legislation against Banning our Animals. My son Jackson is also doing a project that will show some bias in the USGS Process of the RULE CHANGE adding 9 species of snakes. The Interior Department and USFW have sent in the Rule to have it reviewed by the OMB. If this law were to go through, it would be a disaster. This process should be reviewed in 40 days."


----------



## kudaneshfox

Well lets just hope that good old uk govoment veto this like the do every thing elles like getting rid of the passport and the consumer rights legistration


----------



## andy007

andy007 said:


> Just emailed my local MP to get her opinion on the proposed policies.


Well......no reply from her in two weeks. Guess she's too busy spending her expenses:whistling2:


----------



## naja-naja

this is jeremy stones (the boa breeders) young fella doing this for the american snake laws, hope he does well with it


----------



## Sephiroth

re posted on petforums.co.uk : victory:

Keep up the good work, chris!

ps :devil:


----------



## slim scouse

:bash:


shaunyboy said:


> if chris newman tells you something mate its best to listen and take it as 100% true
> 
> chris has dedicated his life to stuff like this and is a man we can all trust regards our hobby
> 
> to the op
> thanks for posting this its at times like these we can't sit back and bury our heads in the sand we must stand up for our rights to continue with our hobby
> 
> for those of you who don't know who chris newman is.....
> Hi – Chris Newman
> 
> except when he ran the Reptilian magazine and took my annual subscription just before it folded- never did get the money back!


----------



## Lionheart

Sorry if i've missed this, i cant be botherd to read all the posts. So if this law comes in tommorrow what will happen to everyones reptiles who all ready have them?


----------



## Salazare Slytheirn

andy007 said:


> Well......no reply from her in two weeks. Guess she's too busy spending her expenses:whistling2:


 
probibly. 2 weeks is a long time to wait mate?
go down there and slap her with a great wet smelly fish and say HERE where is my reply dammit!:gasp:


----------



## ratboy

Lionheart said:


> Sorry if i've missed this, i cant be botherd to read all the posts. So if this law comes in tommorrow what will happen to everyones reptiles who all ready have them?


Well if you can't be bothered to read it... why should anyone be bothered to tell you what it says ?


----------



## Chrisuk33

i have no clue what this is on about prelly cos i cant be bothered to read so much in 1 thread, if they could write a small summary or what hes saying?


----------



## Ssthisto

Chrisuk33 said:


> i have no clue what this is on about prelly cos i cant be bothered to read so much in 1 thread, if they could write a small summary or what hes saying?


The best way to find out what Chris is saying is to read Chris' post.

But for the "I can't be bothered to read it" version:

There are discussions in the EU at the moment about restricting what animals and plants can be bought/sold/traded in the EU because they are concerned that certain species may be invasive and pose a threat to native plant and animal species.

This has two main points of contention at the moment.

1. Will there be "blacklists" of forbidden species, or "whitelists" of allowed species?
2. Will the lists created be applied EU-wide, or will they be regionally based?

Ideally, the best-case scenario is that there would be regional blacklists which forbade the trade of species that could potentially be invasive in the country you're in.

Worst case scenario is an EU-wide white list that restricts people only to trading in species on the list, as all other species would be "potentially invasive" in at least one country in the EU.


----------



## Chrisuk33

Ssthisto said:


> The best way to find out what Chris is saying is to read Chris' post.
> 
> But for the "I can't be bothered to read it" version:
> 
> There are discussions in the EU at the moment about restricting what animals and plants can be bought/sold/traded in the EU because they are concerned that certain species may be invasive and pose a threat to native plant and animal species.
> 
> This has two main points of contention at the moment.
> 
> 1. Will there be "blacklists" of forbidden species, or "whitelists" of allowed species?
> 2. Will the lists created be applied EU-wide, or will they be regionally based?
> 
> Ideally, the best-case scenario is that there would be regional blacklists which forbade the trade of species that could potentially be invasive in the country you're in.
> 
> Worst case scenario is an EU-wide white list that restricts people only to trading in species on the list, as all other species would be "potentially invasive" in at least one country in the EU.



see thats a more friendly version:lol2:


----------



## Herzeleid

What a bloody cheek. Not the first time I've asked myself why we're even a part of that half-arsed back-scratching economic bloc in the first place.

to be honest I'm fed up with our civil liberties getting taken away in one form or another by one group or another. I shall be writing to my local MP (who I didn't vote for of course) to ask him what is his position on the matter.


----------



## Lionheart

ratboy said:


> Well if you can't be bothered to read it... why should anyone be bothered to tell you what it says ?


 :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## MrsRaven

I reproduced this on the information thread if anybody is interested. The original question was, so I gather from the link, from an Italian representative quoting several examples of incidents regarding exotics - not just reptiles - in his country. The reply suggests that there is no plan to introduce a ban, and that it would in any case be left to member states and would not be EU-wide. My only worry is that when the EU says "Jump", DEFRA says "How high?"



*
*
*"From:* Graham Watson MEP (Casework4) [mailto:[email protected]] 
*Sent:* 12 April 2011 12:03
*To:* RYDER, Tom
*Subject:* Animal Welfare{Our Ref:GW/JG/Munt001[6]}



Dear Tom,



Thank you for your email regarding a query by xxxxx xxxxx and proposed EU legislation on reptiles. I apologise for not replying sooner as I was on holiday last week.



After looking into the link provided and a number of relevant written questions to the European Commission, there are currently no plans to introduce legislation on banning the keeping of exotic species. The link refers to a number of studies and reports by the Commission regarding the trade of such animals.



In responding to a parliamentary question on the subject in August last year, the Commission noted that whilst they can continue to monitor and report on the welfare of exotic animals in the relation to trade, only member states have the authority to legislate and monitor the keeping of exotic animals as pets. You can view the question and answer in its entirety via, Written question - Trade in exotic animals kept as pets - E-6287/2010.



I hope you find this information useful. If the constituent in question, or any other concerned constituent of Tessa and Graham's have any further issues, Graham will be happy to deal with their concerns. They should either email [email protected] or write to: Bagehot's Foundry, Beard's Yard, Langport, TA10 9PS.



Regards,



Jon Gleeson


*Press, Campaign and Research Assistant*
*The Office of Graham Watson MEP*
Liberal Democrat Member of the European Parliament for South West England and Gibraltar
[email protected]
01458 252265
www.grahamwatsonmep.org"


----------



## TheProfessor

I know alot of you are going to think this is stupid and possibly question why am proposing this, but here goes!

Firstly this legislation is proposed against ALL animals which may cause a problem, this means cats, dogs, fish, bugs anything! based on current EU law and legislation its safe to assume something is being put into place but we aren't sure what yet? The best bet is someone who is clued up on this, which in my opinion is Chris, who is willing to accept the task, to step up and speak on behalf of "average Joe". 
The problem we face at current is people are divided on views of what they believe the outcome is at current or what they would like it to be, this need not be the case. I think we can all come to some form of agreement that in an ideal world nothing is put into place which restricts our hobby, lives, pets, BUT we all need to agree on a middle ground just in case, such as yes there maybe a black list, but its separate for all EU states, as what may affect one state will not affect another! 
We need to move this to one forum only, ensure that its seen by all and we all talk in one place where everything is sorted and resolved, that way every man/women/child keeper has his say and we can debate it out as to which is the middle ground for the UK ONLY!! 
Second problem we face at current is yes, whilst am in the understanding that there is around 6 million reptile keepers in the UK, there are no organisations in the other EU states which are standing up to fight against this. Organisations and anti-animals protesters etc... have huge backing and act as massive pressure groups on the government! Now we need to all band together to form our own pressure group, and with the influence that Chris has we maybe able to sway our government in our favour, which will at the very least ensure our "blacklist" is kept to a minimum or we opt out of the legislation!! These can be done, as certain regulations/legislations can be "opted" in and out of if they are members of EU states, it depends on the current level of "threat" this poses and under which act the legislation is taken place. 


1. We need to band everyone on the forum under one thread, to ensure we are all after a similar goal and thoughts in this thread are contained and can be monitored! 
2. We need to elect a leader who can stand up for our rights and unite the exotic keepers of the UK
3. We need to contact EU exotic keepers to form a larger front
4. We then need to act as one unit to act as one large pressure group on as many EU governments as possible! 

We need to do this ASAP now, petitions and letters of complaint might not do much to the EU enforcers and committee's but our governments have large influential say! We have more than enough to pressure the government's with such as peoples jobs in the current climate, tax they would lose, and the uproar from a large group of exotic animals owners, Zoo's animals, imports and exports business! But we also have a very sneaky weapon up our sleeves if needed as well! The legislation covers all animals, this includes plants, and mammals! Cats are a large problem in the Mediterranean, feral large groups roaming around, but the politicians won't enforce that are there will be uproars, the same for plants and their exotic gardens and green houses! we can use this against them to show our side of the argument, that we are a larger group than they think and we will fight this as well!

I am only 18 years old and may not be influential to many people, but in the rights hands, such as Chris, we can use these things to help our cause and unite against this!


----------



## leponi

TheProfessor said:


> I know alot of you are going to think this is stupid and possibly question why am proposing this, but here goes!
> 
> Firstly this legislation is proposed against ALL animals which may cause a problem, this means cats, dogs, fish, bugs anything! based on current EU law and legislation its safe to assume something is being put into place but we aren't sure what yet? The best bet is someone who is clued up on this, which in my opinion is Chris, who is willing to accept the task, to step up and speak on behalf of "average Joe".
> The problem we face at current is people are divided on views of what they believe the outcome is at current or what they would like it to be, this need not be the case. I think we can all come to some form of agreement that in an ideal world nothing is put into place which restricts our hobby, lives, pets, BUT we all need to agree on a middle ground just in case, such as yes there maybe a black list, but its separate for all EU states, as what may affect one state will not affect another!
> We need to move this to one forum only, ensure that its seen by all and we all talk in one place where everything is sorted and resolved, that way every man/women/child keeper has his say and we can debate it out as to which is the middle ground for the UK ONLY!!
> Second problem we face at current is yes, whilst am in the understanding that there is around 6 million reptile keepers in the UK, there are no organisations in the other EU states which are standing up to fight against this. Organisations and anti-animals protesters etc... have huge backing and act as massive pressure groups on the government! Now we need to all band together to form our own pressure group, and with the influence that Chris has we maybe able to sway our government in our favour, which will at the very least ensure our "blacklist" is kept to a minimum or we opt out of the legislation!! These can be done, as certain regulations/legislations can be "opted" in and out of if they are members of EU states, it depends on the current level of "threat" this poses and under which act the legislation is taken place.
> 
> 
> 1. We need to band everyone on the forum under one thread, to ensure we are all after a similar goal and thoughts in this thread are contained and can be monitored!
> 2. We need to elect a leader who can stand up for our rights and unite the exotic keepers of the UK
> 3. We need to contact EU exotic keepers to form a larger front
> 4. We then need to act as one unit to act as one large pressure group on as many EU governments as possible!
> 
> We need to do this ASAP now, petitions and letters of complaint might not do much to the EU enforcers and committee's but our governments have large influential say! We have more than enough to pressure the government's with such as peoples jobs in the current climate, tax they would lose, and the uproar from a large group of exotic animals owners, Zoo's animals, imports and exports business! But we also have a very sneaky weapon up our sleeves if needed as well! The legislation covers all animals, this includes plants, and mammals! Cats are a large problem in the Mediterranean, feral large groups roaming around, but the politicians won't enforce that are there will be uproars, the same for plants and their exotic gardens and green houses! we can use this against them to show our side of the argument, that we are a larger group than they think and we will fight this as well!
> 
> I am only 18 years old and may not be influential to many people, but in the rights hands, such as Chris, we can use these things to help our cause and unite against this!


 absolutely fantastic I couldn't of rallied people and get everyone moving forward. I suggest you start the band wagon and show us what to do next I think we should get a peaceful protest together to voice our concerns to the government the amount of people we can get together we will have a stronger voice


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

The Professors proposal is fantastic, if all reptile keepers are to sit and discuss the matter at hand, this very forum is likley to be the one needed, it is the largest online reptile community that I know of in the UK. 

I completely agree that whether it is done or not, it should be discussed in a sensible way. for if or when it ever does happen.
Sitting there blanking it saying it will never happen is ignoring the fact that it "could still happen" and that in itself is a threat.
At this moment in time, not one person can actually read the future. 
If it does happen (what ever the propositions are) we should have some kind of information that will allow reptile keepers go on with there passion, enthusiastic hobby.
or be able to see other peoples views and in some way prepare yourself for it.

As for the other states I dont really know what to say, that is something esle that needs a discussion, as the professor said, what effects one state may not effect another.


----------



## gartergoon

VVVVVVVVVVVVVV:2thumb:


----------



## Kryptic

surely they wouldn't be allowed to just seize our animals? I imagine alot of people on here, myself included would put up a fight if they did try though. 

I wouldn't let anyone take Bobby (Bearded Dragon) from me under any circumstance.


----------



## Ophexis

Kryptic said:


> surely they wouldn't be allowed to just seize our animals? I imagine alot of people on here, myself included would put up a fight if they did try though.
> 
> I wouldn't let anyone take Bobby (Bearded Dragon) from me under any circumstance.


I don't think so. 
It'd probably work like the Dangerous Dogs Act did with pit bulls. For the ones that were in this country legally before the ban came into place, they were to be registered and you were no longer allowed to breed, sell, give away or trade them. That should have frozen the population of pits in the UK and steadily decreased as the registered pits passed away. Any pit bulls that appeared after registration took place were likely seized and destroyed.
This could be what happens with the animals coming under this bracket of discussion.


----------



## Alex88

MrsRaven said:


> I reproduced this on the information thread if anybody is interested. The original question was, so I gather from the link, from an Italian representative quoting several examples of incidents regarding exotics - not just reptiles - in his country. The reply suggests that there is no plan to introduce a ban, and that it would in any case be left to member states and would not be EU-wide. My only worry is that when the EU says "Jump", DEFRA says "How high?"
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> *"From:* Graham Watson MEP (Casework4) [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* 12 April 2011 12:03
> *To:* RYDER, Tom
> *Subject:* Animal Welfare{Our Ref:GW/JG/Munt001[6]}
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Tom,
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your email regarding a query by xxxxx xxxxx and proposed EU legislation on reptiles. I apologise for not replying sooner as I was on holiday last week.
> 
> 
> 
> After looking into the link provided and a number of relevant written questions to the European Commission, there are currently no plans to introduce legislation on banning the keeping of exotic species. The link refers to a number of studies and reports by the Commission regarding the trade of such animals.
> 
> 
> 
> In responding to a parliamentary question on the subject in August last year, the Commission noted that whilst they can continue to monitor and report on the welfare of exotic animals in the relation to trade, only member states have the authority to legislate and monitor the keeping of exotic animals as pets. You can view the question and answer in its entirety via, Written question - Trade in exotic animals kept as pets - E-6287/2010.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you find this information useful. If the constituent in question, or any other concerned constituent of Tessa and Graham's have any further issues, Graham will be happy to deal with their concerns. They should either email [email protected] or write to: Bagehot's Foundry, Beard's Yard, Langport, TA10 9PS.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Gleeson
> 
> 
> *Press, Campaign and Research Assistant*
> *The Office of Graham Watson MEP*
> Liberal Democrat Member of the European Parliament for South West England and Gibraltar
> [email protected]
> 01458 252265
> www.grahamwatsonmep.org"


LOL so once again a rumor is spreading or is this real, tbh good luck trying to get my animals..


----------



## nick-r

Alex88 said:


> LOL so once again a rumor is spreading or is this real, tbh good luck trying to get my animals..


:lol2: got my shotgun ready no ones getting my snakes. they cant stop us from owning snakes that we have they will just put a ban at the shops etc etc etc . just wait and see what happens


----------



## Em0777

nick-r said:


> :lol2: got my shotgun ready no ones getting my snakes. they cant stop us from owning snakes that we have they will just put a ban at the shops etc etc etc . just wait and see what happens


Yeah, and how will they even know who owns what..


----------



## mattsdragons

if they did end up passing this, i can see reptiles becoming a very black market trade


----------



## harlequin

I havent read the whole thread but if this was to apply to all plants and animals surely it would include things like hamsters/gerbils/guinea pigs etc as well as they are all non-native and could survive in our climate?

This all seems kind of crazy to me lol


----------



## Doogerie

this is not just bad for keepers i do not own any Reptile or anything at the moment becaus i don't have the space (but i want one one day) but at least at the moment i have the right to own one this is basicley taking away the right to own a pet anything other then a dog and it won't be alowed thats what i got from the post at the start of the topic I am with you let people keep whatever thay want.


----------



## Kryptic

Doogerie said:


> this is not just bad for keepers i do not own any Reptile or anything at the moment becaus i don't have the space (but i want one one day) but at least at the moment i have the right to own one this is basicley taking away the right to own a pet anything other then a dog and it won't be alowed thats what i got from the post at the start of the topic I am with you let people keep whatever thay want.


well within reason haha, I don't think it would be a good idea for us all to have Komodo's as pets, although it would be awesome if we could.


----------



## Doogerie

well obviousley but yeah komods are coool about as close to a living dinosour as you can get


----------



## Dee_Williams

so what exactly can we do? is there a petition? or what?


----------



## Ssthisto

Doogerie said:


> well obviousley but yeah komods are coool about as close to a living dinosour as you can get


Nah, you can get a lot closer to living dinosaurs* than that 

As far as it goes, the best thing people can do is write a letter to their MP, explaining that you've heard about this legislation in the EU, and asking what they're going to be doing to ensure that it is not unfairly restrictive on you, the person who will be voting on who is the MP in the future. 

* Any member of the class Aves. If you want one that's REALLY dinosaur-like... try a Caracara or Secretary Bird.


----------



## Theegrimrobe

*Oh dear*

More eu fiddleing

I do wish they would just get lost and not poke their noses in where they have no bussines and arnt wanted - as some have said good luck inforcing it if it did come in


----------



## 3codfather

bring on the petition i'l sign it


----------



## Will Dawson

Ssthisto said:


> * Any member of the class Aves. If you want one that's REALLY dinosaur-like... try a Caracara or Secretary Bird.


Yah, despite the words' meaning (terrible lizard), dinosaurs are not lizards and are more closely related to birds


----------



## Will Dawson

Anyone who wants more information, read the report on this website:

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?sectionid=78

PS. Sorry if this has already been posted


----------



## Will Dawson

The objective of this don't seem very clear: They have run risk assessments on animals such as eagle owls, muntjac deers, sacred ibis', door mice, canada geese, bumblebees and many other species that are either protected and/or have been in the UK for decades if not hundreds of years.

It's bizarre


----------



## dorian

Lol, sorry bee, you don't have a visa to get into England, you're going to have to fly back. Doubt that's going to be very effective.

I don't know the whole ins and outs of this, but from the link posted, it didn't seem to state anything to do with domestically kept foreign species. Are you sure this doesn't just apply to wild invasive species?


----------



## montythecornsnake

how dare they try to stop us from keeping our reptiles?! at the moment i only have one as i have just started to keep them, but i have never had more enjoyment out of anything!
my corn snake is so docile i doubt he would ever be a risk to anyone!
i think that the black and white lists that they are mentioning about using were created by people who dont understand or respect reptiles. or perhaps people who fear them and want an easy way to get rid of their fear rather than have some balls and face it.
any animal is dangerous if not treated properly so they can say that snakes and lizards and stuff are all dangerous but what about a dog? what if you treat that dog like crap since the day you got it? it will turn out nasty when its older, but if you treat it with respect and kindness then it will come out a gentle and quiet dog. same with any other animal regardless of species.
i think that all reptiles are beautiful, and if they ever tried to take my monty away that would only be able to do it over my dead body!

i declare war on these idiots!!!

:war: :blowup: :snake: :twisted:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

montythecornsnake said:


> how dare they try to stop us from keeping our reptiles?! at the moment i only have one as i have just started to keep them, but i have never had more enjoyment out of anything!
> my corn snake is so docile i doubt he would ever be a risk to anyone!
> i think that the black and white lists that they are mentioning about using were created by people who dont understand or respect reptiles. or perhaps people who fear them and want an easy way to get rid of their fear rather than have some balls and face it.
> any animal is dangerous if not treated properly so they can say that snakes and lizards and stuff are all dangerous but what about a dog? what if you treat that dog like crap since the day you got it? it will turn out nasty when its older, but if you treat it with respect and kindness then it will come out a gentle and quiet dog. same with any other animal regardless of species.
> i think that all reptiles are beautiful, and if they ever tried to take my monty away that would only be able to do it over my dead body!
> 
> i declare war on these idiots!!!
> 
> :war: :blowup: :snake: :twisted:


lol it does not just include reptiles, I say lets wait and see what the propositions are? 
If it involves any of my own animals or future projects I will gather an army:no1:


----------



## montythecornsnake

Salazare Slytherin said:


> lol it does not just include reptiles, I say lets wait and see what the propositions are?
> If it involves any of my own animals or future projects I will gather an army:no1:



very true, i have one dog, two cats, a gerbil, a snake and a lot of tropical fish lmao, i like a good mix! but at the end of the day, the human race has always treated other animals as pets, and that is the way it always should be. 
: victory:


----------



## aliconda

very serious, and I'll sign any petition going against it but :lol2: at the thought of Corn Snakes taking over!! no ones taking my snakies away, i'll fight to the death for them :whip: : victory:


----------



## spider shane

calm down peeps.

there really is no way they can force this. there are too many of us, think about the EU is one hell of a big group, and the amount of keepers, breeders, and shops tradeing. then lets look at the rest of the hobby, we need vivs, tanks, lights, stats, ect ect to manny companys will suffer. they may think they can do it but a small number of muppets in some metting dont count for sh*t. its like when there is a show animal rights are like no stop this or we will stamp our feet and cry. they never show up to protest and the show all ways gos on.
they made DWA licenses ( well done good call ) that was the right thing to do but for corns, royals, spiders ect its stupid they cant hurt any one ( spider hmm much )

the best thing is to wait and see if this go's public and when it dose we all get out butts of the arm chair and open our mouths, if its kept under raps then i say if animal rights can make noise we can make more, as we know what were talking about because we are the keepers, the breeders, the ones who like me have dedicated years of our lives to these animals so who the hell are they to think they can take this away from us, its called freedom of speach and if we all stand up and shout at the same time they must listen, its the law and some thing like this can not just be passed if it is appossed by us. and remember we are not alone, zoo med, aricneda, exo terra, ect, ect, ect they are trade companys that need this more than we do, goverments will not shut down major out lets.

sorry if i yaped on or miss spelt any thing.

it wont happen, and if they try we have to stop them


----------



## Ssthisto

spider shane said:


> they never show up to protest and the show all ways gos on.


There have absolutely been protests at various shows and there have in fact been shows that have been cancelled directly as a result of animal rights activist activity. 



> the best thing is to wait and see if this go's public and when it dose we all get out butts of the arm chair and open our mouths,


When it goes public it's too late.

The EPS legislation's a case in point on that one. By the time Rita Reptilekeeper found out about it, it was far, far too late to do anything about it because the laws were in place.


----------



## spider shane

Ssthisto said:


> There have absolutely been protests at various shows and there have in fact been shows that have been cancelled directly as a result of animal rights activist activity.
> 
> ooow didnt know that, me local show has been bugged each year but nothing happens. ok my bad
> 
> When it goes public it's too late.
> 
> The EPS legislation's a case in point on that one. By the time Rita Reptilekeeper found out about it, it was far, far too late to do anything about it because the laws were in place.


but when it gos puplic is that not when the people get there say?


----------



## spider shane

btw if they can shut down show and just wright up laws with out a vote then what are we doing? we cant do nothing , can we?

hmmm but i think what i said other than what you point out stands true, its to big of a loss in trade, in pets, hardware, and inports. will they really let that happen?


----------



## Ssthisto

spider shane said:


> but when it gos puplic is that not when the people get there say?


That's the point. The public don't get a say... unless we push for having that say now, before it's a done deal. 

Same went for the EPS legislation. DEFRA and Natural England didn't think there were as many EPS holders in the UK as there actually were, they didn't think it would affect many people (pet shops weren't even informed)... and it's a shame that they were wrong.

The people who get a say are societies, businesses and charities that have gotten themselves into the working groups and represent the interests of their members, customers or supporters.

Will they let it happen? Sure. Think of the smoking ban. How many pubs have closed down in *your* area since that happened? How many jobs have been lost - and how much tax revenue from the sale of alcohol? Sure, *I* didn't mind the smoking ban happening... but it's sad to see the pubs close.


----------



## spider shane

haha back again.

so what can be done we cant all just show up some where to protest. people have jobs they have to go to. or the protests are to far away.
btw is some one pushing now? do we have some one whe knows what there doing acting as a voice for us all. i keep snakes, lizards, tarantulas, stick insects, mantids, milles, roches, frogs, crabs and furry pets.


----------



## Ssthisto

spider shane said:


> haha back again.
> 
> when i said gos puplic i ment when word of this is in the news or paper, not when its passed.


There was not a single peep about the EPS legislation in any sort of "public" format before it went through. It was just done.

The first the general public is likely to hear about the EU legislation is when they go to their local garden centre, pet shop or specialist shop and are told that no, actually, they can't buy XYZ any more, the shop can't legally sell it to them.

We're lucky (as reptile keepers in the UK) that we have someone like Chris who is willing to pass this information on from the working groups to the people it directly affects.


----------



## spider shane

Ssthisto said:


> Nah, you can get a lot closer to living dinosaurs* than that
> 
> 
> * Any member of the class Aves. If you want one that's REALLY dinosaur-like... try a Caracara or Secretary Bird.


 
i want a Komodo.... but cant have one dose my B&W tegu count?


----------



## spider shane

Ssthisto said:


> There was not a single peep about the EPS legislation in any sort of "public" format before it went through. It was just done.
> 
> The first the general public is likely to hear about the EU legislation is when they go to their local garden centre, pet shop or specialist shop and are told that no, actually, they can't buy XYZ any more, the shop can't legally sell it to them.
> 
> We're lucky (as reptile keepers in the UK) that we have someone like Chris who is willing to pass this information on from the working groups to the people it directly affects.


 
thats why i hate the world, why cant they leave us alone. can we not get our local groups to do any thing? mine would be P.R.A.S.

are they on rfuk?


----------



## Ssthisto

spider shane said:


> i want a Komodo.... but cant have one dose my B&W tegu count?


*chuckle* Tegs are ... a bit different to Komodos  But nice animals all the same.



spider shane said:


> thats why i hate the world, why cant they leave us alone. can we not get our local groups to do any thing? mine would be P.R.A.S.
> 
> are they on rfuk?


Yes, Chris Newman is on RFUK - he posted the original thread about this (which this thread links to).

As for local groups, if they're affiliated with the IHS, I'm sure information will be passed to them through there.


----------



## Renegade22

Trust the EU to meddle, yet again!

But, saying that, im sure if my corns got out, them adders would be screwed!!! :roll:

Anyone who wishes to destroy the safe keeping of any any animal, which brings so much joy to peoples lives, i have a couple of things to say to them.... :rant2: :censor: :biteme:


----------



## DanielF

mattsdragons said:


> if they did end up passing this, i can see reptiles becoming a very black market trade


I wouldnt mind that just means more money for me :notworthy: but like i have said before if it does go through im still going to be breeding & keeping


----------



## ghostcornsnake

DanielF said:


> I wouldnt mind that just means more money for me :notworthy: but like i have said before if it does go through im still going to be breeding & keeping


and i wouldnt blame you either i think its quite nasty in my opinion if this does go through lots of rare species will die out.


----------



## alwayshere

*Like*

I like your website.Good luck on everything.

______________________________
cheap golf clubs


----------



## Nell

Right, so apparently this announcement is on a few boards- I'm gonna be copying and pasting a little to try and reassure people!  Apologies if you've already read it!

I studied EU law last term, and I'd say it's very unlikely that this legislation will have a severe impact upon animals kept as pets -the entire point of the European Union is to promote trade between member states, and as such in order for them to ban trade of animals, the risk posed must be proportionate to the economic loss, and impact upon people - therefore, if the Directive is implemented so as to ban certain animals it will be a VERY limited list.

Furthermore the possibility that these lists will become standardised would not be in fitting with the purpose of the EU, as it is clearly disproportionate to ban certain animals from countries where they could not become established if accidentally lost. The money lost from the pet trade if say the corn snake was banned would be vast, and even very sporadically kept pets have a significant impact upon the economy. I therefore think the problem of the lists being rolled out EU wide is incredibly slight.

By all means sign the petition, as it would be a crime to lose exotics pets in this country, however I really wouldn't lose too much sleep over it


----------



## Nell

Right, so apparently this announcement is on a few boards- I'm gonna be copying and pasting a little to try and reassure people!  Apologies if you've already read it!

I studied EU law last term, and I'd say it's very unlikely that this legislation will have a severe impact upon animals kept as pets -the entire point of the European Union is to promote trade between member states, and as such in order for them to ban trade of animals, the risk posed must be proportionate to the economic loss, and impact upon people - therefore, if the Directive is implemented so as to ban certain animals it will be a VERY limited list.

Furthermore the possibility that these lists will become standardised would not be in fitting with the purpose of the EU, as it is clearly disproportionate to ban certain animals from countries where they could not become established if accidentally lost. The money lost from the pet trade if say the corn snake was banned would be vast, and even very sporadically kept pets have a significant impact upon the economy. I therefore think the problem of the lists being rolled out EU wide is incredibly slight.

By all means sign the petition, as it would be a crime to lose exotics pets in this country, however I really wouldn't lose too much sleep over it


----------



## Victor Williams

*help*

can u help me please i noticed my male snake had some substrate up his bum i got most of it out with tweesers should i seek proffessional help !


----------



## born2bwild

*Wild life protection?*

Is it not a way to protect wild life? I assume only professionals whose purpose is to breed in captivity in order to release in the wild to prevent a specie from disappearing in a specific, defined area should be allowed to keep fragile vs endangered species. Similarly, releasing alien species in a given natural environment should be strictly prohibited. It would endangered native species. I have read in Southern France, the little orsini viper is now critically endangered, not only because of habitat loss and killing, but also because it has turned into a fashionable pet. Is this really the aim of it?


----------



## liz200898

TAX!!! to ban it or hinder it would cripple a multi million £ industry in the uk and more across the EU that would be hundreds of thousands of pounds of Tax lost every year, and no Government would ban something that would cause them to loose all that Tax. The same reason Smoking will never be completely banned. of course the threat of laws tightening is massive so I say we hunt down and lock up the animal rights activists in viv's too small for them! They have let enough little girls Bunnies out into the wild to be eaten. Idiots.


----------



## cabrio95

Petition signed. As well as herps, how about the 90% of dogs, cats, fish, small furries, plants etc, not to mention 30% of the human population which are not native!! This is not implementable surely, there would be thousands of shops and livefood businesses shut overnight!


----------



## abadi

Most dogs and cats are not native either?!


----------



## cabrio95

German Shepherd, Boxer, Weimarauner etc Germany, Chiuaua Mexico, French Bulldog France, Pekinese China etc etc etc etc..... Burmese Cat, Persian Cats, Siamese Cats etc etc etc very FEW british breeds of anything, they are nearly ALL imports. The same way that beardies come from Australia, although nearly all of them on the UK market were born in the UK from UK bloodlines?!


----------



## Ssthisto

cabrio95 said:


> German Shepherd, Boxer, Weimarauner etc Germany, Chiuaua Mexico, French Bulldog France, Pekinese China etc etc etc etc..... Burmese Cat, Persian Cats, Siamese Cats etc etc etc very FEW british breeds of anything, they are nearly ALL imports. The same way that beardies come from Australia, although nearly all of them on the UK market were born in the UK from UK bloodlines?!


Technically speaking no domestic dog or cat is "native" to the UK - they were all brought here by humans.

But domestic pets may well get exempted from any invasive-species legislation - exotics are less likely to get the same consideration.


----------



## HemswellOnline

*Mixed feelings on this*

Whilst obviously the idea of an EU wide white list is pretty ridiculous, a country by country black list in my opinion, isn't. We DO need to protect native species, but that does not need to be at the expense of this hobby, or at least not such a severe expense.

With regards to gaining support, any campaigns should make sure not to restrict themselves to reptiles and exotic pets, this legislation (as mentioned by an earlier poster) could quite easily be applied to any non native species, to use their example, cats being one of them. Obviously it is highly unlikely that they will actually try ban cats, but hey, if us pointing out that it is possible for them to fall under these proposed rules (which it technically is) gets more attention, then let's go for it. 

I can just imagine the red top's headlines 'EU LUNATICS WANT TO BAN CATS'. That'd get people stirred up.


----------



## EdanWeb

posted on facebook, will try starting an online petition


----------



## Khanidge

*Here it is people we need this circulated ASAP*

Dear Fellow Herpetologists,

Is this the biggest threat ever?

The European Commission (in the form of DG Environment) is currently developing an “Invasive Alien Species strategy” [IAS] which will be transposed into an EU Directive and implemented across all 27 Member States. Invasive Alien Species (IAS), or Invasive Non-native Species (INNS) as they are better known as in the UK, can clearly pose a threat to the environment, biodiversity and economy, making this a serious issue. There are, however, grave concerns that the Invasive Alien Species Strategy could easily become hijacked to form an Animal Rights Charter, used to restrict the keeping of animals in captivity, a purpose for which it was not originally intended.

The UK government have adopted an open and transparent consultation process with stakeholders, but this appears to be lacking across the rest of the EU. The Commission’s consultation process has been somewhat more selective and mainly taking the form of establishing working groups involving Member States and a few interest groups. We fear that the Commission might not take due account of the economic value of the pet industry to the EU purse (some €30+ billion per annum with net tax revenue of some €12+ billion / annum). Pet ownership is enjoyed by an estimated 67% of households across the EU and undue restrictions on keeping / trade could, therefore, have significant implications.

The facts: IAS are a significant threat to the biodiversity and according to the DAISIE database DAISIE - Home the following apply: 

•	There are more than 11,000 alien species in the EU.
•	Around.15% of these are considered damaging to biodiversity. 
•	A similar proportion are economically damaging.
•	EEA work shows an increasing trend of alien species introductions.
•	IAS costing Europe at least €12.7 billion / annum.
•	Albino king snakes, for example, have been found (and seem to be breeding) in the Canaries.

Clearly the issues are very important but this must be balanced against the devastating effects, socially and economically, of blanket banning keeping pet animals. There are also Human Rights issues as well as animal welfare implications if large numbers of pet keepers are effectively criminalised. A few of the issues which need to be considered are:

•	Commonly kept species, such as North American Colubrids, could potentially become established and would be on the “hit list” of banned species. 
•	Keeping reptiles and amphibians (and many other pets) would no longer be viable.
•	Animal keepers would be driven “underground”, with welfare implications, e.g. inability to access veterinary care. 
•	Forced destruction of animals already in captivity could be implemented.

The Major Issues: there are many issues and threats implicit in the development of the IAS strategy, but three are of paramount importance:-

•	White versus Black Lists 
•	One list or many covering import, trade and possession
•	EU-wide, country-by-country or Bio-geographic Region

White list v black: A white list is a positive list of species permitted to be kept and a black list is a negative list of species prohibited. The EU currently maintains a black list of species prohibited from importations, including species such as American bull frogs Lithobates catesbeianus and red-eared terrapins Trachemys scripta elegans. A black list is the most sensible and practical way forward in order that species that are proven to be invasive or damaging to the environment may be restricted. A number of countries, plus protectionist NGO’s are pushing for a white list approach which would be devastating for our interests as each and every species would need to be risk assessed and would be banned until that process had been undertaken. The process would be prohibitively expensive and extremely time consuming. The GB Non-native Species Secretariat conceded that to carry out adequate risk assessments for all of the species of ‘possible’ concern to the UK would take some 150 years! The position of the European Commission has yet to be declared.

One list or many? A white or black list could be universal to importation, trade and possession, or if there could be separate lists for each category. A black list of species that are known to be problematic (for example red-eared terrapins) are currently banned from importation but possession remains lawful. If a single-list approach was adopted owners in current possession of such species would be criminalised or animals destroyed.

Within the EU there are many Bio-geographic Regions [see below] and a species that may pose a threat in one country may not be problematic in another. Red-eared terrapins, for example, are able to reproduce in the wild in the Mediterranean, but cannot in the UK or any other northern Member States. 

EU-wide, country-by-country, according to Biogeographic Region or one size fits all? Bio-geographical variation within the EU is immense, with climates from sub-arctic to sub-tropical and, with the inclusion of overseas territories such as French Guyana and Reunion; the picture is even more complex. It is not reasonable to prohibit the keeping of a species in one country where it cannot survive in the wild simply because it could in another Bio-geographic region. Common sense could be applies, but a more cavalier attitude appears to be prevailing, with the apparent adoption of a ‘one-size-fits-all’ strategy being preferred by a significant number of Member States.

Time scale: Time is short as the Commission has indicated that it wishes to have a proposed Directive in place by the end of 2012.

What can UK animal keepers do? The UK government is seeking to limit the number of species prohibited only to those that pose the most serious threat and is opposing blanket bans and other overtly restrictive measures, but is only one of 27 Member States, of which only France and Belgium have adopted a similar strategy so far. The German Government, a key Member State, has yet to declare and need to support this stance. Right now, there is little that keepers / traders can do in the UK but our European colleagues need to understand the threat. An EU-wide pro-pet lobby is needed NOW in order to save our hobby & trade, so please circulate this information as widely as possible in order to muster support.

Yours sincerely,

Chris Newman

Chairman Federation of British Herpetologists 
Email: [email protected]



Further information:

1. EU Commission website - Invasive Alien Species
European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity

2. GB non-native species information portal - Working towards an EU strategy
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?pageid=211

3. GB non-native species information portal - Risk assessment
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?sectionid=51

4. Developing an EU Framework for Invasive Alien Species - Discussion papers
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/invasivealien/docs/ias_discussion_paper.pdf

5. Information and background documents EU policy on Invasive Species Strategy CIRCA - Communication & Information Resource Centre Administrator


----------



## Khanidge

*Please read, this is very important......*

As you may be aware. Our hobby is under serious threat. 
Here is a link as to what the next stage is, and how every one can help fight it.

All keepers please read, this is very important......

Please copy and paste the linked letter and spread it to as many forums as humanly possible......

Kindest regards Dean Whitbread, Vice Chairman of ERAC...
__________________


----------



## Spikebrit

whats important there is nothing there lol.


----------



## lopz

:bash:


----------



## Spikebrit

having raed new information it appears things have just stepped up a notch. 


Dear Fellow Herpetologists,

Is this the biggest threat ever?

The European Commission (in the form of DG Environment) is currently developing an “Invasive Alien Species strategy” [IAS] which will be transposed into an EU Directive and implemented across all 27 Member States. Invasive Alien Species (IAS), or Invasive Non-native Species (INNS) as they are better known as in the UK, can clearly pose a threat to the environment, biodiversity and economy, making this a serious issue. There are, however, grave concerns that the Invasive Alien Species Strategy could easily become hijacked to form an Animal Rights Charter, used to restrict the keeping of animals in captivity, a purpose for which it was not originally intended.

The UK government have adopted an open and transparent consultation process with stakeholders, but this appears to be lacking across the rest of the EU. The Commission’s consultation process has been somewhat more selective and mainly taking the form of establishing working groups involving Member States and a few interest groups. We fear that the Commission might not take due account of the economic value of the pet industry to the EU purse (some €30+ billion per annum with net tax revenue of some €12+ billion / annum). Pet ownership is enjoyed by an estimated 67% of households across the EU and undue restrictions on keeping / trade could, therefore, have significant implications.

The facts: IAS are a significant threat to the biodiversity and according to the DAISIE database DAISIE - Home the following apply: 

•	There are more than 11,000 alien species in the EU.
•	Around.15% of these are considered damaging to biodiversity. 
•	A similar proportion are economically damaging.
•	EEA work shows an increasing trend of alien species introductions.
•	IAS costing Europe at least €12.7 billion / annum.
•	Albino king snakes, for example, have been found (and seem to be breeding) in the Canaries.

Clearly the issues are very important but this must be balanced against the devastating effects, socially and economically, of blanket banning keeping pet animals. There are also Human Rights issues as well as animal welfare implications if large numbers of pet keepers are effectively criminalised. A few of the issues which need to be considered are:

• Commonly kept species, such as North American Colubrids, could potentially become established and would be on the “hit list” of banned species. 
•	Keeping reptiles and amphibians (and many other pets) would no longer be viable.
•	Animal keepers would be driven “underground”, with welfare implications, e.g. inability to access veterinary care. 
•	Forced destruction of animals already in captivity could be implemented.

The Major Issues: there are many issues and threats implicit in the development of the IAS strategy, but three are of paramount importance:-

•	White versus Black Lists 
•	One list or many covering import, trade and possession
•	EU-wide, country-by-country or Bio-geographic Region

White list v black: A white list is a positive list of species permitted to be kept and a black list is a negative list of species prohibited. The EU currently maintains a black list of species prohibited from importations, including species such as American bull frogs Lithobates catesbeianus and red-eared terrapins Trachemys scripta elegans. A black list is the most sensible and practical way forward in order that species that are proven to be invasive or damaging to the environment may be restricted. A number of countries, plus protectionist NGO’s are pushing for a white list approach which would be devastating for our interests as each and every species would need to be risk assessed and would be banned until that process had been undertaken. The process would be prohibitively expensive and extremely time consuming. The GB Non-native Species Secretariat conceded that to carry out adequate risk assessments for all of the species of ‘possible’ concern to the UK would take some 150 years! The position of the European Commission has yet to be declared.

One list or many? A white or black list could be universal to importation, trade and possession, or if there could be separate lists for each category. A black list of species that are known to be problematic (for example red-eared terrapins) are currently banned from importation but possession remains lawful. If a single-list approach was adopted owners in current possession of such species would be criminalised or animals destroyed.

Within the EU there are many Bio-geographic Regions [see below] and a species that may pose a threat in one country may not be problematic in another. Red-eared terrapins, for example, are able to reproduce in the wild in the Mediterranean, but cannot in the UK or any other northern Member States. 

EU-wide, country-by-country, according to Biogeographic Region or one size fits all? Bio-geographical variation within the EU is immense, with climates from sub-arctic to sub-tropical and, with the inclusion of overseas territories such as French Guyana and Reunion; the picture is even more complex. It is not reasonable to prohibit the keeping of a species in one country where it cannot survive in the wild simply because it could in another Bio-geographic region. Common sense could be applies, but a more cavalier attitude appears to be prevailing, with the apparent adoption of a ‘one-size-fits-all’ strategy being preferred by a significant number of Member States.

Time scale: Time is short as the Commission has indicated that it wishes to have a proposed Directive in place by the end of 2012.

What can UK animal keepers do? The UK government is seeking to limit the number of species prohibited only to those that pose the most serious threat and is opposing blanket bans and other overtly restrictive measures, but is only one of 27 Member States, of which only France and Belgium have adopted a similar strategy so far. The German Government, a key Member State, has yet to declare and need to support this stance. Right now, there is little that keepers / traders can do in the UK but our European colleagues need to understand the threat. An EU-wide pro-pet lobby is needed NOW in order to save our hobby & trade, so please circulate this information as widely as possible in order to muster support.

Yours sincerely,

Chris Newman

Chairman Federation of British Herpetologists 
Email: [email protected]



Further information:

1. EU Commission website - Invasive Alien Species
European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity

2. GB non-native species information portal - Working towards an EU strategy
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/non...cfm?pageid=211

3. GB non-native species information portal - Risk assessment
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/non...m?sectionid=51

4. Developing an EU Framework for Invasive Alien Species - Discussion papers
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/natu...sion_paper.pdf

5. Information and background documents EU policy on Invasive Species Strategy CIRCA - Communication & Information Resource Centre Administrator


----------



## red foot marg

maybe its about time we stopped importing reptiles and made more use of the ones already here


----------



## red foot marg

Maybe its about time we stopped importing reptiles and made better use of the ones we already have


----------



## Spikebrit

red foot marg said:


> Maybe its about time we stopped importing reptiles and made better use of the ones we already have


As stated on your other comment it is not relating to the importation of reptiles, it is indiscriminate of where and animals comes from capative bred, WC, CF or from the moon, it make no difference to thi leglislation. 

I disagree the imporation of reptiles is and important aspecit for locals, animals conservation and the pet trade, but now is not the time for such a discussion. The leglislation is nothing to do with importation, just the animal as a standalone irrespective of its origins. 

jay


----------



## Khanidge

red foot marg said:


> maybe its about time we stopped importing reptiles and made more use of the ones already here


I used to think like this, but now I know otherwise....


----------



## trogdorable

• Forced destruction of animals already in captivity could be implemented


seriously?
this has crossed my mind before but ive seen a lot of people dismiss it. i never thought such a cruel thing could have been considered, the mass murder of peoples pets . . .


----------



## Ssthisto

red foot marg said:


> Maybe its about time we stopped importing reptiles and made better use of the ones we already have


Note that one of the species mentioned above was:



> Albino king snakes, for example, have been found (and seem to be breeding) in the Canaries.


----------



## Spikebrit

trogdorable said:


> • Forced destruction of animals already in captivity could be implemented
> 
> 
> seriously?
> this has crossed my mind before but ive seen a lot of people dismiss it. i never thought such a cruel thing could have been considered, the mass murder of peoples pets . . .


The likly answer is that they will simply restrict the sale of a species. if you restrict the sale shops wont have them, breaders cant sell babies, and eventually a speices dies out in capativty, just look at the EPS leglislation. Apart from a black market there iwould be few animals available. 

jay


----------



## red foot marg

Spikebrit said:


> The likly answer is that they will simply restrict the sale of a species. if you restrict the sale shops wont have them, breaders cant sell babies, and eventually a speices dies out in capativty, just look at the EPS leglislation. Apart from a black market there iwould be few animals available.
> 
> jay


 it wont stop breeders giving them away , which is good for the animal if you take money out of reptile keeping


----------



## trogdorable

such a sad situation. especially as its getting little attention.
i hope they figure out something which is fair ie not banning a species in scotland because it can survive in france kind of thing.


----------



## trogdorable

how is it good for the animal ?


----------



## red foot marg

trogdorable said:


> • Forced destruction of animals already in captivity could be implemented
> 
> 
> seriously?
> this has crossed my mind before but ive seen a lot of people dismiss it. i never thought such a cruel thing could have been considered, the mass murder of peoples pets . . .


 so are you saying that someone will call round to every home in the eu to destroy pets !!!, i find that abit dramatic


----------



## Spikebrit

red foot marg said:


> it wont stop breeders giving them away , which is good for the animal if you take money out of reptile keeping


You would not be able to give, sell, juggle throw or other wise remove from your possesion any animal listed. Thus no new keepers, thus that species dies out from capative populations, although a balck market would remain. 

For someone with an interest in reptiles, you dont half have a hate filled heart for the keeping of them.

jay


----------



## trogdorable

i was quoting something and putting my opinion , im not saying thats what they are going to do. im not in charge of the whole operation ;]


----------



## red foot marg

Spikebrit said:


> You would not be able to give, sell, juggle throw or other wise remove from your possesion any animal listed. Thus no new keepers, thus that species dies out from capative populations, although a balck market would remain.
> 
> For someone with an interest in reptiles, you dont half have a hate filled heart for the keeping of them.
> 
> jay


 No i dont have a hate filled heart for reptiles , i just think we should stop exploting them in the wild , when do we stop when there extinct !!, as for giving reptiles away , i think it would be impossible to police , reptile keeping , breeding will go on either way .


----------



## Spikebrit

red foot marg said:


> No i dont have a hate filled heart for reptiles , i just think we should stop exploting them in the wild , when do we stop when there extinct !!, as for giving reptiles away , i think it would be impossible to police , reptile keeping , breeding will go on either way .


you keep going back to importation. This has nothing to do with importation. Fine your views are negative, mine are positive, exporting from farm gives the locals income and sustrains breeding programmes and wildlife as there is investment in its future. but this is irrelevent to the information. 

The same issue was said about EPS leglislation and this is already in place. Notice you dont see CB EPS listed animals anymore. if you restrict the sale of animals they drop out of capativity. Unless you are prepared to keep all your ofspring breeding would be pointless and eventually it would cease. i would like to say it wouldn't but it would. 

Reptile keeping would indeed carry on, but so many animsl would be lost from capativity, so many. it would be one step closer to restricting all animals kept. 

jay


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

All I know is that my babies are not going anywhere.


----------



## red foot marg

Spikebrit said:


> you keep going back to importation. This has nothing to do with importation. Fine your views are negative, mine are positive, exporting from farm gives the locals income and sustrains breeding programmes and wildlife as there is investment in its future. but this is irrelevent to the information.
> 
> The same issue was said about EPS leglislation and this is already in place. Notice you dont see CB EPS listed animals anymore. if you restrict the sale of animals they drop out of capativity. Unless you are prepared to keep all your ofspring breeding would be pointless and eventually it would cease. i would like to say it wouldn't but it would.
> 
> Reptile keeping would indeed carry on, but so many animsl would be lost from capativity, so many. it would be one step closer to restricting all animals kept.
> 
> jay


 i dont see how it would work, who would police it ? , the goverment hasn't enough money now without finding more , the police are already cut back and can hardly cope with everyday crime without seeking out people selling captive bred reptiles


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny

I'm not sure how they could enforce such a law. Like has been said, they can't even control the sale of drugs very well...


----------



## red foot marg

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I'm not sure how they could enforce such a law. Like has been said, they can't even control the sale of drugs very well...


here here


----------



## Khanidge

red foot marg said:


> i dont see how it would work, who would police it ? , the goverment hasn't enough money now without finding more , the police are already cut back and can hardly cope with everyday crime without seeking out people selling captive bred reptiles


Yes it is lunacy, no one is debating otherwise. 
However The UK are one out of 27 European states that actually follow the law :whip:.
Our government are not the problem, they are backing us, as they realise how much revenue the pet trade makes for them, that's with out the revenue from the Gardening and Fish industries. (Yes Plants are included as they can become an Invasive species.)
Basically any living creature, including plants, that could be invasive could be banned.

And I respect your opinion against Wild caught animals. I had similar views, but do you realise that Hundreds of thousands of Hectares of rain forest are protected (To the Death) from the Logging/farming industries by indigenous people as they make a living from the animal trade.
Now that this is being taken away (due to captive breeding success), "slowly" the indigenous people are moving away and not protecting the rainforest's as they can no longer make a living from it. 
To a degree Captive breeding is actually causing more environment damage than first thought. By majority of studies taken out, all that has been done by the wild caught trade, is to take the natural selection ie predation away from the animals in question thus prolonging the individual animals life in Captivity.

A Balance is needed, and this legislation will tip it the wrong way, if it goes for the total ban "White List" until risk assessments are done on each species.
Another problem is the Academics want the "White list" as it give's them work for the next 150 years..........................................................................

Kindest regards Deano.......................................................................


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## red foot marg

Khanidge said:


> Yes it is lunacy, no one is debating otherwise.
> However The UK are one out of 27 European states that actually follow the law :whip:.
> Our government are not the problem, they are backing us, as they realise how much revenue the pet trade makes for them, that's with out the revenue from the Gardening and Fish industries. (Yes Plants are included as they can become an Invasive species.)
> Basically any living creature, including plants, that could be invasive could be banned.
> 
> And I respect your opinion against Wild caught animals. I had similar views, but do you realise that Hundreds of thousands of Hectares of rain forest are protected (To the Death) from the Logging/farming industries by indigenous people as they make a living from the animal trade.
> Now that this is being taken away (due to captive breeding success), "slowly" the indigenous people are moving away and not protecting the rainforest's as they can no longer make a living from it.
> To a degree Captive breeding is actually causing more environment damage than first thought. By majority of studies taken out, all that has been done by the wild caught trade, is to take the natural selection ie predation away from the animals in question thus prolonging the individual animals life in Captivity.
> 
> A Balance is needed, and this legislation will tip it the wrong way, if it goes for the total ban "White List" until risk assessments are done on each species.
> Another problem is the Academics want the "White list" as it give's them work for the next 150 years..........................................................................
> 
> Kindest regards Deano.......................................................................


 i see where your coming from but from where im sitting this is all about money money money


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## Khanidge

red foot marg said:


> i see where your coming from but from where im sitting this is all about money money money


Yes you are right, That is the unfortunate nature of ****-sapiens. 
But the biggest problem is the lack of Common sense.........


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## red foot marg

how come this has been removed from other threads ???


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## Ssthisto

red foot marg said:


> how come this has been removed from other threads ???


"Thou shalt not spam multiple forum areas with exactly the same reposted thread; thou shalt put the thread in only the most relevant subsection".

That's the only reason why.

Oh, and for me, this legislation isn't about fear of losing money. If they tell me "you can't sell/give away/trade baby corn snakes any more" ... then what do I do with the baby corn snakes that I breed that I didn't personally want to keep? I breed for myself, to produce morphs I personally want to keep. But there will always be more in a clutch than those one or two....


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## Khanidge

Ssthisto said:


> "Thou shalt not spam multiple forum areas with exactly the same reposted thread; thou shalt put the thread in only the most relevant subsection".
> 
> That's the only reason why.
> 
> Oh, and for me, this legislation isn't about fear of losing money. If they tell me "you can't sell/give away/trade baby corn snakes any more" ... then what do I do with the baby corn snakes that I breed that I didn't personally want to keep? I breed for myself, to produce morphs I personally want to keep. But there will always be more in a clutch than those one or two....


:blush: my bad :whistling2:


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## Rubio

*Spain legislation*

Spain has a 2kilo limitation thing going on with reptiles already i think it's another way to get money from people won't be long before we get a licence fee for keeping reps you watch


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## kirsty.holmes

say this law is enforced wot is going to happen 2 our reptile pets? r we all going ave 2 apply 4 licenses? ive signed a petition in regards to this x


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## 8and6

i think people should read the ACTUAL proposition before going off on the deep end, no amphibians are included in the bill and only 3 species of reptile (with a couple of species of bird, mammal, a handful of pest inverts and some plants)

personally i think that the tiny amount it will affect the hobby is a small price to pay for the protection of native fauna and flora.

Algae
Caulerpa spp.

Plants
Pistia stratiotes
Clidemia hirta
Cortaderia selloana
Begonia diadema
Ulex europaeus
Fraxinus floribunda
Litsea glutinos

Invertebrates
Various species according to the plant
Flies of vegetables - Various species according to the plant
Anoplolepis gracilipes
Achatina fulica, syn. Lissachatina fulica
Cherax quadricarinatus
Hoplochelus marginalis

Reptiles
Lycodon aulicus
Hemidactylus frenatus
Phelsuma (madagascariensis) grandis

Birds
Pycnonotus jocosus
Acridotheres tristis

Mammals
Rattus rattus - this is the Black Rat, extremely rare in the UK and NOT Rattus norwegeniucus which is the pet rat/lab rat/feeder
Felis s. f. Catus - will be subject to restriction/licence upon import/export

The ACTUAL proposition

These are the ONLY things proposed for restriction/banning, nothing more, nothing less


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## Chris Newman

[email protected] said:


> i think people should read the ACTUAL proposition before going off on the deep end, no amphibians are included in the bill and only 3 species of reptile (with a couple of species of bird, mammal, a handful of pest inverts and some plants)
> 
> personally i think that the tiny amount it will affect the hobby is a small price to pay for the protection of native fauna and flora.
> 
> Algae
> Caulerpa spp.
> 
> Plants
> Pistia stratiotes
> Clidemia hirta
> Cortaderia selloana
> Begonia diadema
> Ulex europaeus
> Fraxinus floribunda
> Litsea glutinos
> 
> Invertebrates
> Various species according to the plant
> Flies of vegetables - Various species according to the plant
> Anoplolepis gracilipes
> Achatina fulica, syn. Lissachatina fulica
> Cherax quadricarinatus
> Hoplochelus marginalis
> 
> Reptiles
> Lycodon aulicus
> Hemidactylus frenatus
> Phelsuma (madagascariensis) grandis
> 
> Birds
> Pycnonotus jocosus
> Acridotheres tristis
> 
> Mammals
> Rattus rattus - this is the Black Rat, extremely rare in the UK and NOT Rattus norwegeniucus which is the pet rat/lab rat/feeder
> Felis s. f. Catus - will be subject to restriction/licence upon import/export
> 
> The ACTUAL proposition
> 
> These are the ONLY things proposed for restriction/banning, nothing more, nothing less


This information is not correct, or rather not correct in relation to the EU proposals. This relates to prohibition of species that may be kept on the island of Reunion, which is off the cost of Madagascar!!


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## RaccoonsRule

[email protected] said:


> i think people should read the ACTUAL proposition before going off on the deep end, no amphibians are included in the bill and only 3 species of reptile (with a couple of species of bird, mammal, a handful of pest inverts and some plants)
> 
> personally i think that the tiny amount it will affect the hobby is a small price to pay for the protection of native fauna and flora.
> 
> Algae
> Caulerpa spp.
> 
> Plants
> Pistia stratiotes
> Clidemia hirta
> Cortaderia selloana
> Begonia diadema
> Ulex europaeus
> Fraxinus floribunda
> Litsea glutinos
> 
> Invertebrates
> Various species according to the plant
> Flies of vegetables - Various species according to the plant
> Anoplolepis gracilipes
> Achatina fulica, syn. Lissachatina fulica
> Cherax quadricarinatus
> Hoplochelus marginalis
> 
> Reptiles
> Lycodon aulicus
> Hemidactylus frenatus
> Phelsuma (madagascariensis) grandis
> 
> Birds
> Pycnonotus jocosus
> Acridotheres tristis
> 
> Mammals
> Rattus rattus - this is the Black Rat, extremely rare in the UK and NOT Rattus norwegeniucus which is the pet rat/lab rat/feeder
> Felis s. f. Catus - will be subject to restriction/licence upon import/export
> 
> The ACTUAL proposition
> 
> These are the ONLY things proposed for restriction/banning, nothing more, nothing less





An Appology would be nice... This is serious and take it that way ...


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