# Whats' Your Defence?



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

The codes of practice are delayed, the RSPCA are becoming active on their versions now.

I have seen several drafts and l find them alarming to say the least, whilst extremely long, and predominately comparable to a care guide, the most alarming feature is this one blockline:

"Breach of a provision of this code is not an offence in itself but, if proceedings are brought against you for a welfare offence under the Act, the court can take into account the extent to which you have complied with the code in deciding whether you have committed an offence or have met the required standard of care". 

I don't think keepers fully understand the implications behind this block of text.

Here are some of the legalities that will be used in the codes of practice:

*Summary of key legal responsibilities*



You must take reasonable steps in accordance with good practice to ensure that the welfare needs of an animal for which you are responsible are met.

It is an offence under the Animal Welfare Act (2006) to cause a protected animal to suffer unnecessarily or to allow another person to cause an animal for which you are responsible to suffer unnecessarily.

If you are a parent or guardian of a child less than 16 years old, you are responsible for any animal that the young person is in charge of or owns.
Section 3 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 provides:


Responsibility for animals

(1) In this Act, references to a person responsible for an animal are to a person responsible for an animal whether on a permanent or temporary basis.


(2) In this Act, references to being responsible for an animal include being in charge of it.


(3) For the purposes of this Act, a person who owns an animal shall always be regarded as being a person who is responsible for it.


(4) For the purposes of this Act, a person shall be treated as responsible for any animal for which a person under the age of 16 years of whom he has actual care and control is responsible. 

Section 4 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 provides:

Unnecessary suffering
(1) A person commits an offence if –

an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,


[*]he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,

[*]the animal is a protected animal, and

[*]the suffering is unnecessary.
(2) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he is responsible for an animal,
(b) an act, or failure to act, of another person causes the animal to suffer,
(c) he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening, and
(d) the suffering is unnecessary.

(3) The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include – 

and it goes on, and on...

This is very disturbing:

*Offences and Penalties*
A person who is convicted of an offence under section 4 of the Act may be imprisoned for a maximum period of 51 weeks* and/or fined up to £20,000. If they are convicted of an offence under section 9 (failing to ensure the animal’s welfare) they can be imprisoned for the same maximum period and fined up to level 5 on the standard scale – the maximum is currently £5000.

Proceedings may be brought up to 3 years after the offence was committed but must be brought within 6 months after sufficient evidence on which to base the prosecution becomes available to the prosecuting authority. Prosecutions under the Act are brought by the local authority in the Magistrates Court.

**The maximum period of imprisonment will be 6 months until section 281(5) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 comes into force (when it will be 51 weeks). *


By the way, the above in red, is now active!

This line:

*"if it weren't the case that in Section 9 of the AWA 2006 failure to comply with the code might lead to an offence having been committed"*

Is more disturbing, it basically means that whilst a keeper does not have to adhere to the actual code of practice, their own code must in reality be better than the approved code. Failure to prove that the code they adhere to is better will result in them quite possibly being prosecuted and losing all of their animals anyway.

Draft codes of practice for cats, dogs and rabbits have been submitted for reviews already and they number between 19 - 40 pages in length! Now l think personally that COP's should not exceed any more than five pages max, for no keeper is going to want to wade thru vast quantities of pages on keeping.

Some of these codes will be subjected to public consultations and if the keepers speaks up, there is a very good chance that they may win some reward - but if you do not appeal - then these absurdities will be passed.

So PKL is looking at codes of practice quite heavily, and we will campaign under them as PKL, PKA will be looking to gain support from keepers to defend themselves in the Whats' Your Defence? Campaign.

In the next few days l will be looking to establish Specialist Working Groups to discuss codes of practice for reptiles.

Thanks

Rory Matier

Pro Keepers' Lobby

Home to Pro Keepers' Alliance


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I only posted this thread this evening, and whilst at the time of my writing, l have had 33 viewings to its content, l am somewhat amazed at the lack of responses.

I have just finished reviewing a cop, of which sadly l am not allowed to disclose the full content matter, and whilst in the main l know it to be backed by the RSPCA, 85% l actually find acceptable, it is however the last 15% which l do not.

The 15% is full of wild and wacky ideas, and whilst it is to do with an animal not focussed heavily in this forum, it does lend an estimate to where those whom are writing these codes are looking.

I feel it will not be long before many animals have more of a political vote than many humans do, and judging by the lack of response from the human keeper, l think at times that the animals voice does not need to be actually heard to be listened to.

One of the problems l have with these draftees is the actual length. The one l have just read is 23 pages long. It makes reference to an animal the size of a cat, that it should and would be best housed in a pair, and would have the greatest of comfort from a shed, heated, with a cat flap of its colour choice attached, with straw bales to boot to aid it in its bone and muscle development - the bales used for ledges.

I am not sure if a hi fi, flat screen colour television are imperative, but they may as well be for everything else mentioned here alone. If this one Code of Practice was actually passed l would say that within the year this very species, would not be kept ever again, apart from possibly nutters!! And rich ones at that!!

I wish l could reveal more, however l simply not allowed to, for l think if the keeper was to see a draft cop, l feel that there may be some immediate response, and one would hope more interest.

R


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Am happy to help in any way I can on this Rory be it typing up stuff or researching etc.

I am a bit shocked that more people haven't responded so far as many people have strong views on the CoP discussions usually


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

thats pretty worrying,why are they such long documents? are they making sure of dotting the "i"s and crossing the t's or is it just to make life harder?
regards gaz
as for the lack of response..........nobody will give a stuff until the problem bites them in the nuts


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2007)

gaz said:


> as for the lack of response..........nobody will give a stuff until the problem bites them in the nuts


i agree with Gaz no 1 cares until it happens in this country


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Well I bloody well do!!!

I know many people don't realise the seriousness of things until it is too late to do anything about it but I for one will continue to fight tooth and nail wherever I can to help this hobby.

I just wish other people would do the same


----------



## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm willing to help, but unless I know the codes of practice I can't really contribute, it's a bit of a waiting game.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Ill help willingly just let me know what needs to be done  
to be honest as for the lack of responce i think its because some of the threads concerning things like this dont really make sence to quite a few people. I know sometimes i have to read it twice and late at night its confusing


----------



## K.J.Geckos (Sep 7, 2006)

jesus that took me ages read.its quite worrying to what lengths the rspca are going to go to when half of them know hardly anything about keeping reptiles in the first place.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

The problem we have in the main, is that the c.o.p's currently being reviewed are for species that this forum does not deal with as a specific topic.

Reptiles, mammals, societies and retailers have not even commenced.

I am told that the primate cop is to be released next year, and if l was to take the last review l have just read - Rabbits - yes that was 23 pages long - l shudder what they will do with Primates, a politically sensitive species. help me, but l fear and feel it may resemble the Brittanica Encyclopedia.

Reptiles, again politically sensitive - now l really worry about this - for with primates, one could write a cop for small, medium, large and possible larger species. 

Just taking this into account, you would be looking at marmosets, tamarins, squirrels, capuchins, spiders then come the lemurs. The latter of which are all held in private collections as the main kept species.

How big they may or may not make this, Welsh Assembly is looking to either seriously restrict or ban primates, it certainly would make the administrations easier if no cop had to be written for this. Equally as much Welsh Assembly wanted to restrict mammal sales from retailers in Wales.

Would this happen? Could it happen?

Not just yet l feel, no. But it could be in the agenda in the future sometime. Scaremongering? No, but it is not on the agenda yet. Yet however, only being the operative word.

But briefly back to prmates, let us say in the main perhaps right across the board in private collections from marmosets to lemurs we might be looking at 20 seperate species. Could codes of conduct be written that would cover the four main sizes, or would they have to more specific than this? Would a cop have to be written for just marmosets? Perhaps this would do.

Would it need to be 90 pages as an example? No, l think all primate species could be managed within the maximum of a 15 page document. And that includes one page on legislation, which is the likes of the first post to this thread, as well as one page dedicated to quality websites and recommended books. So 13 pages, dealing with species, habitats/enclosures/diets/substrates/enrichment etc

I feel in the main that these cop's are written by those who are feeling we should not forget that our animals have rights as well. Fine, but for the sake of a code of practice, this is unneccesary - cop's need to be direct and factual, that is it. We do not need to emphasize the political aspectation to it all.

They need to be brief, concise and accurate only. So they can be easily distributed. But above all, l genuinely feel that they must be written by those that are going to be affected by them.

Now, let us look at reptiles shall we................?

Before l proceed, do you see the instant problems we have?

One just has to read the above that l have written to grasp our major problems.

How many codes of practice are going to be needed here?

I have two threads sitting in General Herp:

Ideal set up for?
Top Ten Sellers?

Both of these are relative to this thread here.

We must identify the best way to write these codes that is SUITABLE to all keepers. 

Already l see major problems developing, don't you?

And this is just reptiles, then l also have to think on the mammal species held in the UK alone to really get very concerned.

We need help, we can not do this alone, l need people to volunteer their time, there is no payment for this except for the quite possibly corny line - this will go to aid the reptile community in the long run and ensure that our futures together are maintained as keepers.

So you see the plight?

I can not allow these codes of practice to go unwritten by those who are not actively involved in the keeping of all said and discussed species.

Will you help us?

Rory Matier
PKA/PKL


----------



## K.J.Geckos (Sep 7, 2006)

i think the problem here is that people dont understand what your saying.reading codes of practice and potential guidlines if not yet to soon be laws in the way they actually are presented withing the bill are confusing at the best of times even if not to the experienced person.

people dont actually understand what the rspca are planning to do and for this reason i fear that for once they might actually get away with the plan.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

BBC NEWS | Americas | NFL star gets dog-fight jail term


----------



## calypratus (Jan 31, 2007)

i think the lack of response comes from the fact that most serious long term keepers have seen this all before.this argument with the rspca has been going on for many years.i for one am fed up with all the scare mongering that seems to go on.and if all this ever does come to fruition then i will deal with it when instructed to do so.im sure the rspca have a reason for doing all this............peoples bad husbandry methods perhaps??..people dealing or keeping reptiles not completely legit???


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You have a valid point perhaps.

However, this is not scaremongering but fact.

If l was to turn around to you and say that the RSPCA oppose the keeping of any reptiles in anything but you know the basic viv as say in comparison to an all plastic environment favoured by many snake keepers and breeders.

Or that yes, they wanted to see a five foot snake kept in a six foot enclosure.

Or that they wanted to see a water bowl in a species that does not need one present.

Then fine.

And if no one confronts these issues, and they get passed by the regulators as templates and approved because the reptile keeping community did not put up an argument then like the rest of the keeping hobby - you can deal with it then.

If the likes of the RSPCA do get 75% of their cop's passed you can expect to see things like this appear.

It will not so much as be a case of banning reptiles in our future, and this is one focus area we are accused of going on about, but it will be a case more of seriously restricting and hampering the ability to actually keep them. Therefore, people will quite possibly not do so.

So perhaps a ban would have seemed appropriate in the first place.

The phrase 'serious long term keeper' always tickles me, for this would also include the phrase, responsible and responsibility - for the latter would refer to the ability for the serious long term keeper to realise that things do actually happen. The AWB became an act, descenting was made illegal, the much awaited DWA came into fruition.

Now the aforementioned achievments in legislation took some time, but the importance of the AWA itself, is more of a landmark than people realise. For well out of date, 100 years and some, this act, is now to be seen as a bench press for legislation to move quicker.

This act can be updated more efficiently, but the likes of descenting and dwa under this act would mean that they would not taken several years but in some cases several months to pass through under this very same act.

Its because of this that the cop's should be looked upon by the serious long term responsible keeper as a threat. That if the pro side do not produce something and relatively fast then this 'hobby' will be pushed to the wall by those that oppose *you* keeping whatever it is that *you *keep.

I agree, husbandry techniques are poor in some 30% of keepers, possibly higher, by infractions that l have read about in this forum alone one could see the need for improved husbandry skills. But not all keepers are of such a quality that they need to be painted with the bad husbandry brush.

So of course they have a reason for doing this, and in the same breath, we too have a responsibility to ensure that our side has and takes more of a responsible attitude in the prep for what faces your hobbies as keepers.

The term 'serious long term keeper' whilst not lost on my ears nor eyes, amounts to nothing if those very same keepers do not sit up and take a long hard look at the future and what it holds for them...........problem being, the future is already here my friend, and it is going to get harder.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby

ps: Its a pity that with your fine commentary here in this thread, that you do not back it up by displaying your name in one of the group polls, and that way perhaps you could assist with the responsible attitude of the serious long term keeper?


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Rory, you need a visa and come live here...i worry about your stress levels....but you seem to be fighting the good fight.....just don't go all grey!:lol2:...ok, i'll shut up....:no1:


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

nuttyaboutgeckos said:


> i think the problem here is that people dont understand what your saying.reading codes of practice and potential guidlines if not yet to soon be laws in the way they actually are presented withing the bill are confusing at the best of times even if not to the experienced person.
> 
> people dont actually understand what the rspca are planning to do and for this reason i fear that for once they might actually get away with the plan.


You are right Nutty,

These cop reviews are a nightmare, they are longer than they need to be but at least they are easier to read than some of the other legislation that is abound the industry.

In simple terms the RSPCA would like to make husbandry easier, for them. If they have a set of rules to go by which hey ho, they wrote in the first place, then it could lend a much needed and helpful hand to future prosecutions.

We need to produce cop's that are easy to read and not so long winded, and reading more like Gone with the Wind rather than a conduct into animal husbandry and keeping technique.

Crikey, next it will suggested that the RSPCA finance the training of local magistrates in the complexities of the law as they see it, so that it will make prosecutions easier for them! LOL




Oooops!




Nearly forgot, they do that anyway!!


Rory


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

So in short laymens terms Rory your asking reptile keepers to come up with a cop of our own? as a unit rather than indivduals ?
If so then what "groups" would you be approaching to write the cop's FBH? BHS? or just general keepers?


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

HABU said:


> Rory, you need a visa and come live here...i worry about your stress levels....but you seem to be fighting the good fight.....just don't go all grey!:lol2:...ok, i'll shut up....:no1:


 
:lol2: :lol2: : victory:

Stress?

What is that?

Damn, l can not find the icon for as nutty as a lunatic......l am not stressed! Its a way of life.

Reminds me of the film where Mel Brooks stars l think .... Life Stinks .... where upon he yells who wants to be l can not really remember well - but l think 'a politician' in a nuthouse and everyone holds up their hands, then he yells out who wants to be a fire engine, and they all shoot their hands to the heavens. Well me too, l wanna be a fire engine!

:lol2:


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i hear ya!!:no1:


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Faith said:


> So in short laymens terms Rory your asking reptile keepers to come up with a cop of our own? as a unit rather than indivduals ?
> If so then what "groups" would you be approaching to write the cop's FBH? BHS? or just general keepers?


Hi Faith, 

Pro Keepers Alliance wants to enlist the help of the reptile keeper to write codes of practice. So that we may submit a more realistic cop.

The FBH will not do it, they may offer assistance , but that may be , only a maybe, the BHS will not do it.

Why?

Because in reality they dont have the time.

We [PKL] were asked not long ago: 

to identify ourselves to the keeper...
to identify our aims...
to identify who we were...
to not scaremonger as people interpreted it as such...
...and it goes on.

And l have been doing that for the last seven weeks.

And now we are in the final phases of that identification, and that if Pro Keepers' Lobby, are to introduce Pro Keepers Alliance for the benefit of the keeper, then we must encourage the keeper to look at campaigns that affect them directly.

COP's is one such campaign under PKA, for this directly affects all keepers.

So yes, PKA wishes to write up cop's.

Rory


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Re: lack of responses...

Rory, i'm not trying to be insulting or anything as i can only go off 'me' but it might get more attention in shorter posts. I started reading, saw it was a huge post and thought 'meh, bollocks to that'. Then when i skipped down the thread i saw more long posts and just read bits of them.
Lots of people use the net and forums at work and don't have the chance to read so much as they're always looking over their shoulder (like i am typing this). Plus out of 100 people you'll only get a small percentage who will read a long post and the majority of those will be the ones who are as dedicated to the cause as you are.
There may be a lot of people who fully agree with you (possibly me included if i had the attention span to read so much in one sitting) and would reply but just don't have the chance, time or possibly patience to read long posts..

like i said, not having a pop just explaining it the way i see it..


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Meko, 

I agree with you, so does Nerys, so did Ratboy and no doubt, so do many people on the forums.

My problem is that some of the posts l write are short, and then l am asked to elaborate and that makes it longer as an answer. Then l write long posts, and it is considered too long and then people will have an issue with that.

Sadly however, we have an issue which is in many peoples eyes, long winded to begin with.

This is unavoidable, its legislation, its politics, its procedure, and that is the problem there.

If we lived in a climate that was made up of short legislation, then our writings would be smaller.

Forums are made up of short posts, people - writers can amass huge posts within very short periods of time by posting little snippets here and there, as an example - you joined in April 2007 - Dec 2007 - and you have 1954 posts to your name which roughly equates to 244 posts a month, broken down further - in a 30 day month average = 8 posts per day.

Please forgive me, this is just an example.

So one can see, that some writers, many in fact only join forums for some quick talk,advice, humour, tips, opinions and comments in the main. 

And again - legislation is not as cut and high dry - as that.

But yes, l think l have reduced my writing length overall - l know l am an editors worst nightmare! But we are not dealing with something that can be dealt with in that short a manner - even the cop's we would write would need to be no longer than five pages, other wise they will not be taken seriously.

Rory


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

As for PKL writing the cops i agree i honestly think that not only would it be better for the keepers but it would benefit a lot of us in the long run to have some one like Nerys (who is a respected keeper, member and friend to some) being a part of making the cops.
My next question would then be 
What (in laymens terms) would PKL be asking the keepers to contribute to the cops, apart from experience and support etc what exactly would PKL be asking of us if anything?


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Faith, 

We need to construct working groups - keepers who want to endeavour to make a difference to their passion of keeping animals.

A lot of these cop's are written by 'coigned specialist and professional keepers', zoo keepers, vets, and so on.

The biggest problem we have with mammals and reptiles is that the list is vast in species range alone - look at reptiles itself - the species list kept is huge.

If l was to take my thread Top Ten UK Sellers: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/73901-top-ten-uk-sellers.html

Then here we have a series of grouped reptiles, that a code of practice may have to be written for each unless we can find neutral ground in which we can amass certain reptiles within one code.

As an example loose as it is:

I know mammals, better than l know reptiles [yes l know that is apparent, lol], but lets take Racoons, Kinkajous and Coatimundis, same family group, but in many ways they are all different. Would one cop manage them all?

In the RSPCA eyes, perhaps not, in our eyes possibly, with a distinct break in the introduction, we could show three species in the one cop. Slightly differently in their husbandry, but with careful considerations we could make it possible.

Lets look at reptiles, and this thread: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/74822-whats-ideal-set-up.html

This is for the Leopard Gecko, now with the few answers present, does everyone agree with that husbandry code?

For this is the main issue, one keepers husbandry will be quite possibly different to the next, so you have to make the cop fair and judicial, so that each keeper can see it as being realistic.

One keeper of snakes may swear blind to keeping them in plastic, whilst another may swear to traditional vivs. If we reach a neutral ground on vivs, instead of a biased view, then perhaps both can be seen as acceptable.

The RSPCA do not want to see snakes in plastic, but keepers will want to do that for space, and ecconomics. 

As to what PKA are looking for, well in the main, we are looking for the submission of care guides in a format that we will lay out, and then we will have the long arduous task of finding the neutral ground.

That would be the first step.

R


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Your right there is a very vast species list for reptiles let alone anything else and ive seen the leo thread and replied  
I understand a middle ground needs to be found and the main problem with reptiles for example leopard geckos is the substrate divide its been going on for years and will most likely carry on for years to come. 
I personally think trying to get as close as we can to the enviroment the species has come from would be a great start for the cops. 
You will never get everyone to agree that one way is better than another you just have to look at the care sheets submitted on here to see that but there is def a pattern in the way people keep their reptiles and i guess once you have found that pattern then PKL would go from there?
Ill offer my services any where i can in regard to opinions etc and leos are what we do my OH has been caring for them for 20 yrs in Jan so most of my knowledge comes from learnging from the reptiles we have and he kicking me up the bum if i do something wrong lol 

If you need a few copies of care sheets im sure if you asked people to submit their own for different species they would, but try posting in the snake section and the lizard section for those as most topices get seen in there


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

if you are going to have cops that aim for naturalistic setups etc then you will immediately wipe out all the professional and semi professional breeders in the UK,then you will have no animals to buy.................job done and we can all shut up shop and go play bowls instead
regards gaz


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

gaz said:


> if you are going to have cops that aim for naturalistic setups etc then you will immediately wipe out all the professional and semi professional breeders in the UK,then you will have no animals to buy.................job done and we can all shut up shop and go play bowls instead
> regards gaz


understandable gaz but i wasnt on about trying to make a desert in our living rooms we have over 60 leos and i know that we wouldnt be able to re create the natural enviorment perfectly but with temps substrates and natural foods we could get it close.

Not only that if the rspca had their way on viv sizes etc then you wouldnt be able to keep them anyway not the way we do in racks and tubs 
So whats the lesser of two evils? 
A animal lover writing the cops with input from the animal comunity or the rspca writing them ?


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

those of us using racks already recreate the standards of the natural enviroment of the species concerned and the rspca feel its no good anyway,best bet as you say is for us to be writing the cops,then we can write in enough lee way to accomodate all the valid styles of reptile maintainance and breeding.
or we could bugger off elsewhere,somewhere where the rspca doesnt exist:whistling2:
regards gaz


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

gaz said:


> those of us using racks already recreate the standards of the natural enviroment of the species concerned and the rspca feel its no good anyway,best bet as you say is for us to be writing the cops,then we can write in enough lee way to accomodate all the valid styles of reptile maintainance and breeding.
> or we could bugger off elsewhere,somewhere where the rspca doesnt exist:whistling2:
> regards gaz


ermmmmmm, lol the thing is i dont want to bugger off to somewhere where they dont exsist i like it here. 
Id much rather stand and right for our rights than run in the other direction


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

all very well to say that but the writing is looming large on the wall,and this countries various governments have quite a track record for destroying perfectly legal pastimes ,rights or no rights,so some forward planning is sensible
regards gaz


----------



## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> It makes reference to an animal the size of a cat, that it should and would be best housed in a pair, and would have the greatest of comfort from a shed, heated, with a cat flap of its colour choice attached, with straw bales to boot to aid it in its bone and muscle development - the bales used for ledges.
> 
> I am not sure if a hi fi, flat screen colour television are imperative, but they may as well be for everything else mentioned here alone. If this one Code of Practice was actually passed l would say that within the year this very species, would not be kept ever again, apart from possibly nutters!! And rich ones at that!!


 
But who cares if only 'rich nutters' can keep them, so long as the needs of the animal are considered...and in all honesty, there are is a large number of people who do already provide this sort of care.

For example, primates are currently out of the reach of most individuals - except for those with the finances and space to house them properly. I don't know why any other species should be different.

I for one would be elated if those people who kept single rabbits in a 3 foot hutch at the bottom of the garden could be forced to provide the necessary social needs and space requirements. 

Though, at the end of the day, this particular COP is being reviewed again because it couldn't be agreed on, so I suspect the guidelines will either be watered down or there will be more leeway introduced.

But the basics outlined are indeed true - they SHOULD be kept in pairs, and a shed is an ideal environment for a pair - most hutches on the market are not suitable for two rabbits.

Just because rabbits have been kept in a certain way for a while, doesn't make it right. I applaud the fact that something is finally being done about it.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I get where you are coming from Neep Neep but I agree with Rory that perhaps the RSPCA's written COP's are unrealistic.

Yes, any animal lover will agree that social enrichment and space issues are important but there is a surely an easier way to approach this than totally wiping the backbone out of keeping.

What about Mrs X down the street, she has 1 rabbit who lives in her garden with a suitably sized hutch nad a run. Her little girl has the rabbit out for 2 or 3 hours a day to excersise it indoors, to "play" with it for want of a better word.

Is this such a bad way to house it? I would sya htat Mr Y who owns a pair of rabbits which he bought from a pet shop as females, but then started spewing babies out left, right and centre, has them living together permanently and only provides them with the basic food and water - that is who should be following COP's for me.

I agree that things having been so for a certain length of time does not make them right in any way, but codes of practic ebeing written by the ery group who wishes to end animal keeping is certainly not right - red tape up to your ears, unrealistic housing requirements the list is endless


----------



## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> What about Mrs X down the street, she has 1 rabbit who lives in her garden with a suitably sized hutch nad a run. Her little girl has the rabbit out for 2 or 3 hours a day to excersise it indoors, to "play" with it for want of a better word.
> 
> Is this such a bad way to house it? I would sya htat Mr Y who owns a pair of rabbits which he bought from a pet shop as females, but then started spewing babies out left, right and centre, has them living together permanently and only provides them with the basic food and water - that is who should be following COP's for me.


Neither of those situations is ideal though - which is surely why the COP is being written, to guide people as to appropriate care? I don't think either of those situations are particularly great - though obviously on two very different scales!




brittone05 said:


> but codes of practic ebeing written by the ery group who wishes to end animal keeping is certainly not right - red tape up to your ears, unrealistic housing requirements the list is endless


However, these housing requirements are exactly what many rabbit keepers have been campaigning for themselves. The RWA also suggests these sorts of accommodation setups, as do a large number of rabbit keepers and the majority of rabbit rescues. And in this case, the COP has indeed highlighted the ideal conditions - so i'm not sure i'm currently able to criticise the content of the COPs that will follow, as this one seems to be right on track with regards to what the Rabbit organisations suggest. 

They may be unrealistic (which is probably why it has been sent back out for review) but they are certainly a big step in the right direction  I don't think that they should compromise on welfare demands just so they don't tread on peoples toes. Current RSPCA suggestions are minimum hutch size 5ft - which is feasible for most rabbit owners. The only objection i'm sure will be the cost. Obviously a shed is better - but i'm sure even the RSPCA realise that not everybody will extend to this luxury and I suspect that although it may remain in the COP as an example of the best type of accommodation, it won't be considered a minimum. I'm personally quite sceptical of the changes the final COP will make, and at the end of the process i'm dubious as to whether the minimum will be any more than 4ft.

When considering animal welfare, I do think it's the best option to start out suggesting the very highest requirements and expectations...because throughout the process they will be 'haggled down' by various other groups and authorities. 

Though I can guarantee you that there will be a large proportion of rabbit owners who complain that the COP does not do enough, and will complain that the RSPCA doesn't have enough power...and then there will be this other portion who claim they have too much! :lol2:


----------



## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Just to add - I think that this COP is a great step for improving rabbit keeping...provided it doesn't back down too far :lol2: but I agree in that I really don't know how they are going to do the reptile ones, especially as the organisation as a whole doesn't seem to be too keen on reptiles.
I can take their suggestions for bunnies, as that is what they do best...but reps? Definitely need some more clued up organisations right in the thick of that consultation.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

The rspca have more power than they need tbh although they have the same ammount of power than any joe on the street their power comes from YOUR cash (ok not you in perticular but the public) and thats what supports them getting people knocking on doors taking away animals that are being correctly cared for!

Ok so maybe rabbits do need heated hutches etc but ask this 
if they DO say a heated shed is the min requirement then what? 
What happens to all those bunnies that are kept in hutches in peoples gardens that cant afford sheds?
Well heres an example
Rabbit rescues will be even more over run, as more than most of the counrty will not be able to afford heated sheds
Either that or mrs x down the road says "hey ill sign mine over to the rspca"
Ummm talk about give them what they want!
How many rabbits would you say live in hutches in peoples gardens?
how many of those could afford a heated shed?
How many of those rabbits would end up in rescues?
How many would be put down because there was no more room left in all the heated sheds in peoples gardens or no more room in the rescues?


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Faith said:


> The rspca have more power than they need tbh although they have the same ammount of power than any joe on the street their power comes from YOUR cash (ok not you in perticular but the public) and thats what supports them getting people knocking on doors taking away animals that are being correctly cared for!
> 
> Ok so maybe rabbits do need heated hutches etc but ask this
> if they DO say a heated shed is the min requirement then what?
> ...


There'd be a run on Rabbit Stew :whistling2:


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Fixx said:


> There'd be a run on Rabbit Stew :whistling2:


well i personally wouldnt eat the stew but thats the idea yes a lot of them would end up being PTS or just let out in the open etc 
now imagin replacing "rabbits" with "reptiles" could you imagin ?


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The Rabbit Code of Practice was rejected out of hand as it was unworkable, unrealistic and frankly plain silly. As the RSPCA have now changed there minds and are now demanding short, 2/3 pages codes, it will be interesting to see if the rehashed codes will be reduced from the 20 odd pages of the first draft! Or, as has been suggested, are Welsh Rabbits so different from English rabbits!!!!


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

a cop for a rabbit should be no more that 2-3 pages long imo 
considering rabbits have been in the pet trade for the last 50 years give or take a few. im sure most people are aware how they are ment to be looked after 
Ok take out the plain stupid ones and the mentally disadvantaged.


----------

