# Pimp my Vivarium - Pic Heavy



## spatte88

Hey guys,

I originally bought an Exo terra viv and it came with a polystyrene background which my beardie seemed to love climbing on! We have bought another viv for her to go into when she gets a little bigger and seen as she loved the Exo terra background soo much we looked into buying them again for her new one but we decided that it might look a bit uniform, boring and make the viv look rather empty plus we found that all the crickets get down the smallest little cracks and end up hiding behind it! Anyway, so I came on here to have a bit of a nosey into anything that I could buy to make it more interesting and found a few people had done viv conversions. After seeing all the really great ones that have happened here on RFUK I thought I would try and give it a go! So here is an online diary of the progress! I have to admit I have been working on the project for about a week so this is a little behind but I will do my best to bring you up to speed as quick as poss!!!

Oh before I start describing mine here are some of the links to the other vivarium terrains backgrounds

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habitat/247228-my-8ft-x-4ft-x.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habitat/353088-fake-rock-possibilities.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habitat/234113-making-vivarium-rock-background.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habitat/287566-4-foot-high-crestie-viv.html


I also have a spreadsheet with all the materials and costs and where I got all the stuff from in case any one is interested and ill make sure I post this at the end of my thread when I know it has everything I have used on it!!!! 


So anyway 1st we sat down to do some planning and at first were going to go with what the majority of people were doing which was a 3D rock background including plenty of perch spots for basking but we wanted to make it slightly different so started thinking of things that would be relative to us. We considered making a Maya pyramid as we had visited these in Mexico and thought they were fab however this would mean having a jungle scene and we have found with the 1st viv that the crickets tend to hide in the leaves we bought and so we didn’t want them to have hiding places in this one and so in the end we modified this idea as my partner quite likes science fiction and remembered a pyramid out of Alien Vs. Predator that was found underground in an ice cavern, considering we have white walls and an alien figure in the corner we thought this would match in quite well with the décor so this was what we decided on!!!

as with most of the other viv conversions we decided to use polystyrene to manufacture our terrain here are the results I took a pic at the end of each day because as you can see it took a little while to make some pieces!!

Enjoy and ill update soon!!!! 

ok here is the original idea that we were trying to mimic










the blank canvas!










Spectra Couldn't wait to help out!!! how cute :flrt:










we asked B and Q to sponsor spectra but they couldn't see how they could recoup any costs from a dragon - how mean!!! :lol:

Testing for the approx size of the pyramid, allowing us to guage what looked about right!










End of day 1 front view with base of polystyrene and bottom layer of the pyramid










angled view after day 1


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## bothrops

Wow!

What are you using to cut the polystyrene? Hot wire cutter? If so where did you get it? Seen a few on ebay, but I'm not overly impressed.

Can't wait to see how it develops!

Cheers

Andy


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## spatte88

bothrops said:


> Wow!
> 
> What are you using to cut the polystyrene? Hot wire cutter? If so where did you get it? Seen a few on ebay, but I'm not overly impressed.
> 
> Can't wait to see how it develops!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


yes we are using a foam factory hot wire kit (http://hotwirefoamfactory.com/home.php), which we got from hobbys in london, they do 1,2 or 3 piece kits and we were v impressed with it! here is their web address http://www.hobby.uk.com/products/08889-hot-wire-in-kit.html (this is also where we sourced the styrofoam from which we used for later reinforcments - as you willl see!!) they were also pretty speedy with postage! we found it very good for doing straight edges as well as the rough terrain. the real bonus is that when it cuts the polystyrene the heat seals it making the edge strong and also stops there being loads of bobbly mess everywhere which is what happens if you try to cut it with a knife/saw lol.


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## spatte88

So, here are our efforts after day 2!

here's a front view, as you can see we have put the third layer on the pyramid and have started to build the ice cavern (a more detailed view can be seen below!) we have covered part of the back of the viv and one side but have allowed a gap for the spot lamp, our thinking was that a) we didn't want the beardies to climb up the polystyrene and get stuck between that and the heat lamp and b) we weren't sure how much heat the polystyrene would take before it melted (even though we are going to grout the polystyrene- its better to be safe than sorry!!) the only down side to not putting polystyrene around the heat lamp would be a little bit of heat loss but i would rather a little heat loss rather than a risk to my beardies!!!










Here is a more detailed view of the ice cavern, and on this one you can see the pieces we have added to the layer of polystyrene insulating the bottom of the viv. i have recessed a hole in layer 1 for the water bowl to go into as thought it might look quite effective having the water bowl in the ice area and his also works quite well as our beardie like to have her water at the warm end of the viv! (it will be removable for cleaning ect!)! we were undecided on where the food bowl should go and so are going to leave this free standing so we can move it if necessary! 

on top of layer 1 we added another layer of "ice" in the corner and added a perch to the side wall. we have plans to add a few more perches don't worry and thought the corner piece of ice would act as a sort of step - hopefully this will become more apparent as the viv build progresses as i'm terrible at trying to describe things lol! we also added a raised bit in the ice cavern as we are toying with the idea of putting a substrate down on the flat bits as we hear beardies like to dig, at the moment ours is on paper towel and we are thinking of sand as the new substrate however have read all the bad experiences with impaction so we are going to leave that to be a later choice i think. the raised bit would also allow the water and food bowls to be kept well away from the sand should we decide to put it in! 

After that we did a little bit of shaping on the floor pieces and the wall to see if the ice sculpting looked effective. we were pretty pleased with the results! what does everyone else think??? 










hopefully do another little update tonight!!!


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## bomb

That's looking good so far love how it looks like individual bricks are there aswell. What type of vivarium are you using, looks nice.


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## spatte88

bomb said:


> That's looking good so far love how it looks like individual bricks are there aswell. What type of vivarium are you using, looks nice.


it is an italian made viv, the company is called ferplast and the model i have is the explora. it seems like a really well constructed viv and am very pleased with it. it has loads of good features like all the accessories fit really well making it look smart and it is well ventilated ect the only downside we have noticed is that because of all the vents there are a fair few places that smaller insects could escape from. Ferplast do make a mesh sheet that fixes in the viv to prevent this though- but obviously thats more expense! check out the ferplast website (Pet product manufacturer Italian pets furniture supplier - FERPLAST) to see all there vivs!


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## thecricketkiller

looking good got to admit tho my first thought was you will have fun cleaning bearded dragon muck off all that lot lol


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## spatte88

On the 3rd day God created land.....we created the top layer of our pyramid!!!!! :lol2:

from the front view below you can see we have added the top layer to our pyramid along with some detail (or "mini pyramids" as i like to call them) to the corners. the temporary main basking spot has now been added into the ice cavern as well! it is temporary as we need to do some temperature testing to allow us to set up the correct gradients and so we havnt glued it in place yet as we are going to move it around during testing plus we are waiting for our slightly stronger green styrofoam to arrive to reinforce the basking spot when we make it permanent. though it doesn't seem much has been done today the building of the mini pyramids and the top layer took a lot of time as it required the angles to be cut to match each other allowing them to fit together!











here is an angled view so you can see the basking spot better!


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## spatte88

thecricketkiller said:


> looking good got to admit tho my first thought was you will have fun cleaning bearded dragon muck off all that lot lol


we thought that too but because it will be grouted and sealed just need to pick up the poopy, and with a little squirt of water and a mini scrubbing brush quickly clean the area and dab up the wetness with paper towel and depending on how bad it is maybe another little rinse and dab! easy peasy!!!! :2thumb:

AND our little beardie is a lady and dont you know ladies dont poo!!! hmph! :whip:


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## spatte88

Day 4

we finished the mini pyramids on the corners of the main structure and also added a staircase!










a better view of the pyramid!










anyone have any opinions on this so far????


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## Craigbaines

looks boss lol! I want to see i finished now so hurry up xD lol


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## Sarah1340

Wow, that looks great! Can't wait to see the finished item!


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## connor 1213

brilliant:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: :notworthy:


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## bothrops

Awesome...

*starts saving for a hot wire cutter*

You clearly both have a highly artistic eye!

Cheers

Andy


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## mythicdawn07

Awesome stuff, wish i could make something like that


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## Smurfinator

Wow..that really is quite remarkable. Excellent project, very well done :2thumb:


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## spatte88

Day 5

So this was mainly about temperature testing, moving the basking spot around to get the desired gradient and the correct temps at both ends. we used the set up seen in the pic below which consisted of two komodo dial thermometers and a USB digital thermometer capable of recording two different temperatures. we placed one thermometer directly below the heat lamp (digi) one one the slope of the main basking spot, one on the secondary perch (towards the front) and one in the cool end (digi). we found it easy enough to get the temp for the main basking spot however the cool end temp was a little bit too cool- we were registering 81F which is between the 80-85F parameters however its summer at the mo and so we were worried that it might not keep the temperature correct in the winter. we tried lowering the main basking spot until it was practically floor level and cranking up the heat but the cool end temp barely changed. With all the venting in the top i think the heat was escaping too easily and so we had to put our minds to work!!! unfortunately you will have to wait until later to find out what our awesome idea was. ooh the suspense!!! lol










oh i don't know if anyone noticed the pillar in the above photo but this will be developed tomorrow into more of the cavern - more pics of this will be coming soon

we also added the other half of the polystyrene to the back and started a little bit of shaping!











thanks for all the comments guys!! keep them coming through though as i can still get my head through the door :lol2:


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## thecricketkiller

my female ones are worse then the males lol how much was the viv? suitable for a snake do you think?


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## chewy86

bravo! give yourself a massive pat on the back. cant wait to see the end product, going to be amazing hope they appreciate it ;-)


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## toxic

That looks nice m8 loads of work going in to it but the viv dont look that big. 

For a grown BD 36 x 24 x 24 inch min for a fully grown BD more for a German bd I think there called.

I know your bd not full grown now but just leting you know for later on


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## spatte88

thecricketkiller said:


> my female ones are worse then the males lol how much was the viv? suitable for a snake do you think?


I would say so though have to admit that im not 100% sure what a snake needs. the roof is fixed though can be removed by removing the screws, the doors are lockable, it is well ventilated, plenty of volume but if height is needed they do a taller version of the one i have. hope this helps!! the website is really good and tells you everything about the vivs Pet product manufacturer Italian pets furniture supplier - FERPLAST. we 1st saw this online and found that there weren't many stockists in the UK but found many places would order it in for us. i found emmersons pet centre (Pet Supplies Online UK, Emersons Pet Centre Online Store) who seemed to do me a relatively good deal (if you do decide to get one mention that i pointed you their way - the girl who bought the explora 110 - they should know who you mean!!! lol).have to admit found the taller one a bit cheaper as people seem to ship this one in a bit more regularly. the viv was £297 so obviously a little more pricy than wooden vivs but because it is going in the lounge we wanted glass (fussy britches i know lol). im really pleased with it overall and would rate it far better than the Exo terra!!! the accessories (light fittings uv reflector ect) all fit really well and look neat and tidy!! :2thumb:


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## reptile boy

wow pal that looks unreal i see you did well at dt at school :lol2:


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## darloLee

looks like you put alot of effort in to it mate, keep it up... also hurry up coz i wanna see it finished:lol2:


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## bomb

If you don't mind me being nosey how much was the viv the site doesn't appear to have a price list.


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## spatte88

bomb said:


> If you don't mind me being nosey how much was the viv the site doesn't appear to have a price list.


hi dont worry your not being nosey! i did mention in an earlier post that we found it at emersons pet centre (link on previous post - though not on their website) who seemed to do me a relatively good deal. the viv was £297 so obviously a little more pricy than wooden vivs but because it is going in the lounge we wanted glass. have to admit found the taller one a bit cheaper as people seem to ship this one in a bit more regularly. im really pleased with it overall and would rate it far better than the Exo terra!!! the accessories (light fittings uv reflector ect) all fit really well and look neat and tidy!! i will post a full list of prices and stockists for everything used at the end when the conversion is complete!!!!


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## Craigbaines

How did you get such detail into the polostyrene?


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## toxic

what size is the viv ? and same how you get so much detail into the polostyrene cant just be with a lighter can it lol


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## Craigbaines

i tryed to make one, but i didnt get anywhere near as good detail into it as that, it looked ok, but i found when water touched it it when gooey and started running off, if it was the pva, or grouting i dont know! 

then i tryed using yatch varnish and in the end i ripped it out, im converting my wardrobe into two vivs atm, and im only planning on buying anouther crestie once i can sex mine, so not for a while.

Im concidering taking a second attempt at building one, and ill try to take my time and do things the right way. 

Id need it to be water resistant, but i dont want to cover it with varnish or anything as i put a shiney plasticy look too it. 

anyone got tip's tricks or exsplanasions as to why it went like it did, i was very impatiant at the least, doing my next layer once it was touch dry, using the hair dryer on it. So i dont think it ever fully dryed!


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## bothrops

craigbaines said:


> i tryed to make one, but i didnt get anywhere near as good detail into it as that, it looked ok, but i found when water touched it it when gooey and started running off, if it was the pva, or grouting i dont know!
> 
> then i tryed using yatch varnish and in the end i ripped it out, im converting my wardrobe into two vivs atm, and im only planning on buying anouther crestie once i can sex mine, so not for a while.
> 
> Im concidering taking a second attempt at building one, and ill try to take my time and do things the right way.
> 
> Id need it to be water resistant, but i dont want to cover it with varnish or anything as i put a shiney plasticy look too it.
> 
> anyone got tip's tricks or exsplanasions as to why it went like it did, i was very impatiant at the least, doing my next layer once it was touch dry, using the hair dryer on it. So i dont think it ever fully dryed!


Easy, buy a 'matt finish' varnish rather than a 'gloss finish' one!

Varnish is a must if you want it water resistant (PVA is water based and will go 'mushy' if it gets wet!)

Cheers

Andy


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## Craigbaines

so how do i apply the sand if i can not use pva? 

and id rather sprinkle sand on and leave it like that! looks far better than when you cover it :/


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## bothrops

Layer of varnish, layer of sand (when varnish still wet) then repeat! If you use a matt finish varnish it will look exactly like you have just put the sand on!

Check this thread to see what I mean (This was my first attempt at 'fake rock' and wanted a sandstone finish)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habitat/121491-fake-rock-build-beardy-viv.html

Cheers

Andy


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## Craigbaines

Looks good but i couldnt have sand like that with a crestie hmm,, stuck for idea's lol.

Is yours fully water resistant then yer? 

How long did it take for the fumes to go?


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## spatte88

craigbaines said:


> How did you get such detail into the polostyrene?


A good hot wire kit is essential for a project like this! We bought 3 tools (quite expensive initial layout though tools are always handy to have right? :lol2 one which is for cutting, one for sculpting and one for engraving.


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## spatte88

toxic said:


> what size is the viv ? and same how you get so much detail into the polostyrene cant just be with a lighter can it lol


The viv measures 44 x 18 x 24 so not too massive :lol2:


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## carpetman

WOW!

Just had a look at this thread, and that is better than you described it!

Well Done!


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## nogatsira

One of the most if not the most impressive pieces I've seen so far!
HURRYYY we want to see it finished!


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## eazyabe

come on i need to see the finish product :mf_dribble:


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## spatte88

Thanks guys for all the great comments!!!!


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## spatte88

Oh something i forgot to mention on day 5 that we looked into UV ranges as well as the temps so made sure the basking spot was within 30cm of the source even though we believe the UV range of the tubes we have are 50cm - again better to be safe than sorry!

due to popular demand...... im gonna post onto Day 6!!!!

today was mainly about reinforcing and making the main perch more permanent. we did this using styrofoam which is a more dense version of polystyrene (and is the green stuff in the picture). we also have built up underneath the platforms to make them more angled giving them more support. the key thing that we did that we think gives the basking spots the most strength was to fix them to the wall using angled joints (a bit like jigsaw pieces - well, sort of). after reinforcing we load tested it, seen as we didnt want the perch with our beardie on it to fall off the wall or equally the perch tear the polystyrene wall down that it was fixed to. we tested it with a weight of 5kg (two big bags of grout) and it didnt even budge - this was only held in place with the angled joints never mind when we hot glue gun it into position!!! :no1: Think we can be pretty sure that it would definately take the weight of our beardie even when she does become a little fatty!!!

front view









detailed close up of the platform


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## spatte88

Made a last minute decision to go away for the weekend so thought i had better quench your thirst a little by posting day 7 as well!!! though we do have a little trick up our sleeves, prior to grouting, which we will reveal to you on monday - just to keep you entertained and interested!!! :2thumb:

Finishing the ice cavern

we thought the viv needed a bit of depth perception and so we decided to do a little more to the ice cavern. as you can see we reinforced the secondary perch spot, again, using the angled joints mentioned earlier and building it up underneath. we put this perch at a 45 degree angle so that the beardie can sit on it looking out of the viv and it can still feel the heat on its back from the lamp and it allows continuation of the step system for them to get up to the top perch!!! The polystyrene on the back and side walls has almost been finished with the detailing for the ice (however it cant be fully completed due to the surprise we will reveal on monday!!)! AND we have developed the arch and the column (only thin so it doesn't block off to much of the view) at the front which is the main item we think gives depth and it kinda hides the heat lamp a bit too so its not so much of and eye-sore! we also thought the column is a nice touch to make it look realistic! Now before people say anything we did think the column idea through with regards to cleaning as we knew it would be a pain to clean around it so we made it removable!!!! i will describe how we did it lower down this post with pics! the three pictures below show a front view and one from either side so you can see the detailing better!!!!

front









side looking @ pyramid









side looking @ ice










Ice cavern column

we wanted to make this removable for easy cleaning ect but we also needed it to be strong incase our beardie thought it would be a good idea to climb on it (she is a little tinker!!) we figured the best way to make it strong would be to make a wood core and then build up the polystyrene around it. so this is what we did!!!! we also made a sort of "bracket" for the wood to slot into both on the top and the bottom. unfortunately i forgot to take a pic of the top bracket but might see if i can take one later and add to a later post!

below is the bottom bracket recessed into the floor










next so you can see how the wood will slot in from an angle










and then the wood upright in the bracket at the bottom. the polystyrene covering the bottom bracket is permanent and the system still works. just removed it on the other pics to make it easier to see what was happening!










around the wood will be styrofoam shaped after it has been glued to the wood and there will be a wedge system with the bracket at the top to keep the column in place! this bracket is attached to a wooden strut we placed along the top half of the viv (inside the polystyrene for the arch) which we thought would strengthen the arch as well as provide a good mounting point for the top bracket. hope this makes sense and as i say i will try and take some pics of the top bracket so you can see how that works and hopefully understand my ramblings!!!! :crazy:


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## connors53

that is absolutely amazing-cant w8 to see it finished:2thumb:


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## excession

Looking fantastic. Will be interesting to see how well the detail holds out against the grouting (I assume its to be grouted?).

Out of interest why are you paining some of it already? Again I assume its to be covered with grout?


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## spatte88

excession said:


> Looking fantastic. Will be interesting to see how well the detail holds out against the grouting (I assume its to be grouted?).
> 
> Out of interest why are you paining some of it already? Again I assume its to be covered with grout?


Yes, we are going to grout! Also we haven't painted any of the viv so far! Could you be getting confused by the green styrofoam and the white polystyrene? The styrofoam is just more dense polystyrene which we used for strength - it only came in green, not that it really matters because as you said we are going to grout anyway?


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## Morgan Freeman

This is abslutely fantastic.

I had an idea to do a "Chichen Itza" or "Machu Picchu" style design but never thought I could pull it off. It would never have topped this anyway!


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## excession

spatte88 said:


> Yes, we are going to grout! Also we haven't painted any of the viv so far! Could you be getting confused by the green styrofoam and the white polystyrene? The styrofoam is just more dense polystyrene which we used for strength - it only came in green, not that it really matters because as you said we are going to grout anyway?


 
Ahh fantastic 

I guess I am guilty of jus tlooking at the pics and not reading the rest!! :whistling2:

Its looking really fantastic anyway.

I wish I had one of those hot cutters, but I dont think I can warrent 50£ for a set.

I got 3 vivs to finish however!


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## spatte88

excession said:


> Ahh fantastic
> 
> I guess I am guilty of jus tlooking at the pics and not reading the rest!! :whistling2:
> 
> Its looking really fantastic anyway.
> 
> I wish I had one of those hot cutters, but I dont think I can warrent 50£ for a set.
> 
> I got 3 vivs to finish however!


ah ha but if you bought one you could finish the 3 vivs you have in no time and as long as you kept it in good condition you could prob sell it on ebay or here on RFUK and get a very similar price back for it!!!! though if your waiting for ours trust me you will have a long wait as we still have another viv to do after this one! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## spatte88

Morgan Freeman said:


> This is abslutely fantastic.
> 
> I had an idea to do a "Chichen Itza" or "Machu Picchu" style design but never thought I could pull it off. It would never have topped this anyway!


that was our original idea but the jungle surrounding it would have been a haven for crickets to hide in so thats why we didn't go for that, and then we remembered the scene from AVP and thought that was a brill idea!

You should give it a go! its good fun (well most of the time)!


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## Geckogirl_88

MORE!!! Must see MORE! lol
its amazing!

xx


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## pauld

Fantastic!!!


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## Ellis

epic! make me one


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## andy n amz

looks amazing carnt wait to see the finished product


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## spatte88

Ellis said:


> epic! make me one


thanks again for all the kind comments, might consider making some for people in the future, though not sure what the demand would be like!?!?! that would be once i have recovered from this one though lol!!!


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## Ellis

spatte88 said:


> thanks again for all the kind comments, might consider making some for people in the future, though not sure what the demand would be like!?!?! that would be once i have recovered from this one though lol!!!


ha, tell me if you do!

would well want one :mf_dribble:


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## mikeliverpool

*viv*

this viv is ace just want to know how you are going to grout all the small detail eg steps if the grout is thick you will loose all the detail witch would be a shame let us know how you plan to grout this work of art 

mike


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## neil1983

Looks amazing, look forward to seeing it finished


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## kckoopa

:gasp::notworthy:


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## stern69

wow!!!!!


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## gibby

what a belter mate :2thumb:

got to be the best yet, cant wait to see finished.


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## dionator

cnt wait for an update, it looks amazing :2thumb::2thumb:


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## Mouki

that viv is ridiculously AMAZING. 
Give it to me! :lol2: only joking, you deserve such a good viv after all the hard work that must have gone into it! :no1:


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## The Gibbon

*The Gibbon*

And I thought my creations were ok. Amazing detail, pure artwork!
Cant wait to see the finished article.

Stuart


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## mythicdawn07

Really cant wait to see this finished, i bet people would pay good money for thing's like these. :no1:


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## bothrops

Did you carve the indentations in the polystyrene to give it that 'icy look' or is that just a fortunate by-product of the cutting loop tool?


It just keeps getting better....thinking of ripping mine out and starting again!

Cheers

Andy


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## cd78

This looks FRICKIN awesome dude! keep up the good work!


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## arranthesnakekeeper

*How did u...?*

this is an amazing looking tank so far, until i seen your i had no idea it was safe for the reptiles. I was just wondering how you stuck the basking rocks or spots on the main part of the styrofome without them falling when the lizard sits on them


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## reaper307

*wot can i say*

mate that wot u doin is out this world am well impressed with it:2thumb:
well done


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## spatte88

bothrops said:


> Did you carve the indentations in the polystyrene to give it that 'icy look' or is that just a fortunate by-product of the cutting loop tool?
> 
> 
> It just keeps getting better....thinking of ripping mine out and starting again!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


I think you nailed it on the head :lol2: I used the loop cutting tool to create the ice effect which was actually quite easy. Hard to describe the method used, though safe to say no talent or skill was required apart from just going mad and hoping for the best :2thumb:


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## snake rescuer

any more updates lol


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## spatte88

arranthesnakekeeper said:


> this is an amazing looking tank so far, until i seen your i had no idea it was safe for the reptiles. I was just wondering how you stuck the basking rocks or spots on the main part of the styrofome without them falling when the lizard sits on them


Well the main back and side wall started out as 50mm polystyrene sheets prior to shaping the ice! I then created groves in the polystyrene for the styrofoam to sit in, by making the joints angled downwards the more downwards force exerted on the outcrops the sturdier they became. Just before starting to grout I then used a hot glue gun to glue the joints and edges together. I also pushed wooden cocktail sticks through both pieces prior to the glue drying to act as dawls.


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## leenjaidec

Wow 
Great job so far m8: victory:


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## oakelm

Cant wait to see the finished article, given me all sorts of crazy ideas for a future viv build. Still interested to see how the detail holds out once grouted.


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## spatte88

ok so im back!!! where were we upto.... ah yes day 8!

Today i promised i would post our little trick (to solve our cool end problem) which we think is quite cool really - might just be us being a bit geeky though or a bit sarah beany!!! drumroll please....

.........underfloor heating!!!! :2thumb:

For those who have been following this thread, you may remember when we had our temperature testing day (day 5) that we were a little concerned that the temperature in the cool end could drop below 80F in winter as we were registering 81F and its summer at the mo! we put on our thinking caps as to what we could do. Then we thought what would be the most efficient way to heat a house taking up minimal space? underfloor heating! We know beardies don't have temperature sensors under their body and so they wouldn't be able to sense what temperature it was potentially putting them at risk!(hence why it isn't advised to use heat mats!), but never fear we have considered this in our planning as we will explain more later. so how can we modify and transfer this idea into the viv? 

Basically it involved a pump, lots of tubing, an inline temperature guage, foil and water! simples! ha ha i think we may have been watching too much property ladder/grand designs! The system is derived from a computer cooling system though minus the fans to cool the liquid! This means it isn't connected to our house supply and is completely a stand alone system that is basically heated via the basking heat! 

We have run the tubing through the polystyrene of the pyramid but also through that of the basking spot so basically the water picks up the heat from the basking lamp on the perch and transports the heated water through the viv to the cool end/pyramid warming it slightly. This system means we don't have the problem of overheating the beardie from below as the tubing will be covered by a few millimeters of grout and as it is heated by the basking lamp and transported round round the viv the liquid shouldn't even reach close to 40 degrees, plus there is no energy required to heat the water as this is all provided by the heat lamp, and therefore is minimal electricity required as the pump used only requires 9.5W, this should be far more energy efficient compared to our other option of running a 60W heat lamp at the cool side on a thermostat to control the temperature!

The tubing is still exposed as it will be until the completion of the grouting and so we haven't tested the system to its full potential (i.e with the heat source in place). When we left the pump running for a few hours with the viv at room temperature we found that the liquid heated to 31 degrees via the pumps heat alone.

the foil was used in between the pipe and the polystyrene to hopefully reflect some of the heat upwards and prevent heat loss to unnecessary areas. The liquid in the tubing is blue but is still safe if the system were to leak as we used distilled water and food colouring! though the only places we think it could leak would be at the pump or near the inline thermometer as these are the only places that there are joints. To help prevent leakages we have placed the thermometer in a water tight box with holes cut on to allow the pipe through which have been siliconed in place therefore if it did leak then it would hopefully be contained (in pic that i will add later). if it were the pump then it is easily accessible to be fixed immediately and these joints are visible so a leak would be noticed straight away! worst case scenario if it doesnt work/causes to many problems we can drain the system, remove the pump and use a small heat bulb at the other end!

dont know if anyone has done this before but we though it was something new and lets face it, it wouldnt be a proper "pimp" if it wasnt a little crazy!!!! feedback please and onto the grouting we go! :roll2:

Perch tubing - where the heat is gathered!









tubing around the base of the pyramid









Pyramid tubing









bit more of an overview


----------



## spatte88

oh forgot to mention the thermostat for the habistat is partially hidden in the 2nd perch (you can see it in the pic above if you look closely!) also there is a little more detailing on the pyramid!!!! :2thumb:


----------



## cordylidae

this is 1 of the best fake rock builds ive seen so far the water heating was a good idea however with the grout etc heat might not get through well if thats happens heat cable might work but id test the temps after a couple of layers of grout (if guess your using it) if it isnt then you may have to heat the water a bit better or use heat cable 

the only thing i can think of iswheres the hides? you ming be able to make 1 
inside of the temple but that makes stuff more compicate for you so you just going to add them in or?


----------



## linzii

this is fab, you are one talented person, well done :no1:


----------



## spatte88

mikeliverpool said:


> this viv is ace just want to know how you are going to grout all the small detail eg steps if the grout is thick you will loose all the detail witch would be a shame let us know how you plan to grout this work of art
> 
> mike



we plan to do it with great care and using fairly runny grout to make sure we dont loose the detail, after building up several layers we are going to sand it into shape - if any has been lost!!!


----------



## keviin2k9

thats really cool but i have 1 question did you grout your polysyrene then paint green or paint straight on ?


----------



## spatte88

keviin2k9 said:


> thats really cool but i have 1 question did you grout your polysyrene then paint green or paint straight on ?


The green items are Styrofoam which is a denser (stronger) version of polystyrene! Grouting is my next step before I attempt painting.


----------



## gameover

very impressive:no1:


----------



## liquid

thats one heck of a build you got there, loveing the backgroung detail:2thumb:


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## MadFerret!

Have to say this is extremely impressive, wish I had those kind of skills : victory:

Do think it looks extremely small though now it's packed full of poly. Are you not concerned about the lack of usable floor space? Or are these pics just taken in a strange perspective, so that the enclosure is huge but looks small?


----------



## spatte88

MadFerret! said:


> Have to say this is extremely impressive, wish I had those kind of skills : victory:
> 
> Do think it looks extremely small though now it's packed full of poly. Are you not concerned about the lack of usable floor space? Or are these pics just taken in a strange perspective, so that the enclosure is huge but looks small?


yeah we did think that a little bit when we had completed the polystyrene, however at the moment she is only small so there will still be plenty of space and to be honest she spends 99% of her time on her branch basking and the rest of the time she is hanging off her exoterra background, she barely uses the floor space, so i think she will be absolutely fine! Saying that, essentially the floor space that has been taken has extended up not lost so she will have a greater surface area in use and therefore utilizing the space to its full potential. the other thing to note is that although the basking spot is in the ice cavern the floor area underneath there is pretty much flat-there is about half of the floor space still left usable.

worst case scenario when she gets bigger we can just take out the pyramid and make the background ice, or even worse still we can sell the viv! i'm sure we wouldnt have any trouble selling it!


----------



## snake rescuer

spatte88 said:


> yeah we did think that a little bit when we had completed the polystyrene, however at the moment she is only small so there will still be plenty of space and to be honest she spends 99% of her time on her branch basking and the rest of the time she is hanging off her exoterra background, she barely uses the floor space, so i think she will be absolutely fine! Saying that, essentially the floor space that has been taken has extended up not lost so she will have a greater surface area in use and therefore utilizing the space to its full potential. the other thing to note is that although the basking spot is in the ice cavern the floor area underneath there is pretty much flat-there is about half of the floor space still left usable.
> 
> worst case scenario when she gets bigger we can just take out the pyramid and make the background ice, or even worse still we can sell the viv! i'm sure we wouldnt have any trouble selling it!


id buy it lol


----------



## keviin2k9

so would i id buy that anyday


----------



## spatte88

Day 9,10, 11 - Grouting!!!

Not too much to explain on this one really! mix the grout and plaster it on!!!! lol. we did 2 layers of white grout everywhere and then a further layer of white on the snow and then a charcoal grout on the pyramid to give it some colour hopefully meaning less of a base coat of paint needed!

here are the pictures!!!

all over white coat









a view from each side


















colour added to the pyramid









close ups of pyramid



















this part of the viv build was by far the worst!!! i was having serious thoughts of just giving up - dont worry i didnt though!!!! lol


----------



## mythicdawn07

im lovin this viv so much!!, amazing work, keep it up.


----------



## diamondlil

This is incredible!


----------



## spatte88

rase0121 said:


> this is 1 of the best fake rock builds ive seen so far the water heating was a good idea however with the grout etc heat might not get through well if thats happens heat cable might work but id test the temps after a couple of layers of grout (if guess your using it) if it isnt then you may have to heat the water a bit better or use heat cable
> 
> the only thing i can think of iswheres the hides? you ming be able to make 1
> inside of the temple but that makes stuff more compicate for you so you just going to add them in or?


we have tested the underfloor heating after grouting and you can definately tell a difference heat wise which is fab!!!! if it didnt work we considered fitting a small heater into the pump system so the water was slightly warmer!

we were also advised that hides for beardies are not a good idea as they can get territorial over them and so are not going to put one in! little madam doesnt have one at the mo and seems fine!!!! she sits right near the front of the viv as if to say LOOK AT ME!!!!!! :lol2:


----------



## a1dzcannon

WOW this is by far the best viv i have seen :gasp: I'm so jealouse right now  I WANT IT, great work! Can't wait to see the finish :2thumb: PLEASE keep me updated.
Thanks,

Josh:devil:


----------



## Adam W

I love it, well done!!:no1:


----------



## TerrorTortoise

*Omg!!!!*

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A NICER FAKE ROCK BUILD :no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::no1::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:


----------



## TerrorTortoise

CAN YOU MAKE ME ONE :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Jondur

That's amazing and almost definitely the only good thing to have come from that terrible film!!!!


----------



## hillzi

wow mint, I'm sure someone has said it already but I think your BD has been spoilt. :lol2:


----------



## excession

Looking fantastic


----------



## mikemike118

*anything else?*

Hi great piece of work, hope they like it? Also i just want to say......i know wot picture that is!!!! its from predator vs. alien.....:no1: go me! 

Secondly i will like to ask whether i could use a differant material *which crickets cannot eat through?* such as mdf or something?


----------



## cordylidae

spatte88 said:


> we have tested the underfloor heating after grouting and you can definately tell a difference heat wise which is fab!!!! if it didnt work we considered fitting a small heater into the pump system so the water was slightly warmer!
> 
> we were also advised that hides for beardies are not a good idea as they can get territorial over them and so are not going to put one in! little madam doesnt have one at the mo and seems fine!!!! she sits right near the front of the viv as if to say LOOK AT ME!!!!!! :lol2:


 it good too hear everythings fine hope everything else goes well i love this viv tbh and dont give up lol

also to add traction id use white sand on some parts of the viv im sure theres a proper repbranded white sand maybe even small sprinkles of it on the temple althought just normal grout does look good


----------



## spatte88

mikemike118 said:


> Hi great piece of work, hope they like it? Also i just want to say......i know wot picture that is!!!! its from predator vs. alien.....:no1: go me!
> 
> Secondly i will like to ask whether i could use a differant material *which crickets cannot eat through?* such as mdf or something?


hmm i would have thought mdf would have been very hard to model with and besides i dont think crickets can eat through 50mm of polystyrene in the few hours they are in the viv (as obviously they are either eaten or removed at night) let alone the 3-4 layers of grout we have put on along with paint and a few layers of varnish!!! if they eat through that lot then good ridance as im not sure i want munchie animals like that going in my beardies belly!!!!! :lol2: 

the styrofoam we used to fortify the perches might be a better option for you if you are worried about things eating through the build as it is quite a bit more dense than poly however this is a little more pricey than average polystyrene!


----------



## spatte88

rase0121 said:


> it good too hear everythings fine hope everything else goes well i love this viv tbh and dont give up lol
> 
> also to add traction id use white sand on some parts of the viv im sure theres a proper repbranded white sand maybe even small sprinkles of it on the temple althought just normal grout does look good


Yeah we did consider putting white sand in around the bottom to finish it off but with all the horror stories of impaction we think we might just leave it plain for now and see how it goes. worst case scenario im sure we can glue a small sprinkling of sand down to give the traction and avoid impaction!!!!


----------



## spatte88

Day 12

With a few people mentioning that by grouting we might lose some of the detail, we decided to sand the grout on the pyramid to make sure we had all of the edges and the stairs back to their original shapes (plus we thought the grouting looked a bit messy and uneven!!!) because there is white grout under the charcoal grout when we sanded some of this showed up which is what some of the white patches are in the pics - not to worry though as it will be painted and will go back to a uniform colour! We also had to touch up a few areas where we sanded to low/some of the grout cracked off and also to maintain the detail in areas such as the stairs! The pictures show the sanded, touched up pyramid all ready for painting!!!!



















will add more soon! : victory:


----------



## excession

The grouting is definately the hardest bit 

I remember I was starting to get tierd of it by the time I finished mine.

Its looking brilliant


----------



## spatte88

excession said:


> The grouting is definately the hardest bit
> 
> I remember I was starting to get tierd of it by the time I finished mine.
> 
> Its looking brilliant


ha ha ha tired of it was not the word! i was ready to throw my toys out of the pram!!! lol :whistling2:


----------



## jack_rep

impressed, was about to say i was worried all the detail would have been lost when you grouted it. Looks pretty good tho. You blatently have too much time on ur hand however lol


----------



## Freakinfreak

How much would you say a back wall of a 4ft viv would cost :whistling2:


----------



## Guest

I have got to say your viv is amazing  remember to spend lots of time on the painting, that can make or break it, that underfloor heating is ingenious though, well done


----------



## spatte88

Freakinfreak said:


> How much would you say a back wall of a 4ft viv would cost :whistling2:



what for me to make you one? or for you to buy the materials and make it yourself?


----------



## spatte88

after allowing the grout plenty of time to dry we have started painting!!!! we did hope to have it all finished by today ready for varnishing however it has taken a little longer than expected as the grouting was a lengthy process to make sure we kept all the detail and the painting wasn't quite as quick as we had hoped. we have finished the ice cavern however the pyramid is incomplete. have posted a few pics to bring you up to speed but unfortunately we are going away on holiday Na_Na_Na_Na and so we wont be able to update you for a little while.

here is one with the ice undercoated (mostly) and one half of the pyramid started....









the ice cave finished and as you can see we have done a little bit more undercoating to the pyramid. dont worry it will be a lot neater when its finished lol!!!!









also while we are away we need help!!!! we need ideas for our next viv conversion!!!! possibly after a theme/scene that could spread over 2 vivs that are stacked! keep the comments coming as we are loving the feedback on the design and layout, plus hopefully some comments on the colour scheme now!!!! :whistling2:

look forward to reading everything when we get back!!! :no1:


----------



## spatte88

Crestie Chris said:


> I have got to say your viv is amazing  remember to spend lots of time on the painting, that can make or break it, that underfloor heating is ingenious though, well done


Thanks!!! thats really the only main comment we have on the underfloor heating!!!! when we have finished painting and varnishing we will use an infra red gun to let you know what temps its kicking out and how effective it is!!!!

the paint job is going to take a while - as we have found out! the ice cavern has been dry brushed because to highlight every nook and cranny in there would have taken me years (and i mean literally) however i'm definitely going to be highlighting the pyramid to make sure this looks top notch!!!!!


----------



## Guest

spatte88 said:


> Thanks!!! thats really the only main comment we have on the underfloor heating!!!! when we have finished painting and varnishing we will use an infra red gun to let you know what temps its kicking out and how effective it is!!!!
> 
> the paint job is going to take a while - as we have found out! the ice cavern has been dry brushed because to highlight every nook and cranny in there would have taken me years (and i mean literally) however i'm definitely going to be highlighting the pyramid to make sure this looks top notch!!!!!


The Ice looks amazing :O it may even look better with the varnish, it will give it that 'clear ice' look. Enjoy your holiday


----------



## nogatsira

Looking greattt!
How the hell do you not make a mess with the grout when working inside the terrarium? :gasp:


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## ginna

omg that looks ace i want one :no1::lol2:


----------



## spatte88

nogatsira said:


> Looking greattt!
> How the hell do you not make a mess with the grout when working inside the terrarium? :gasp:


Basically a hell of a lot of masking tape and a lot of time! Must admit I wish I had of made it removable until the varnishing stage to make it easier! May have to re-think the route of the underfloor heating for my next project :lol2:


----------



## DaveAnscombe

Seriously THATS WHAT I CALL A TALENT!

Best one ive Ever seen 

10/10


----------



## mythicdawn07

:bash: the suspense is killing me!! cant wait to see it finished mate :2thumb:


----------



## Danny_mcr

wow that looks ace m8:2thumb:


----------



## The Roach Hut

Well done mate i just came across this and ur doing a superb job amazing and im glad you did a post showing people how creative you can make it. I also want to say thanks for adding 2 of my links in ur very first post on this topic lol. keep up the great work looking forward to seeing it done.

I did say anyone can do it and all u need is time and imagination and you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt anything is possible with a bit of poly

10/10

Tony


----------



## melmac

what an excelent build i wanna have a go now lol


----------



## haunted-havoc

i tip for the ice is, natural ice has denser parts and these are generally dark blue/dark grey or black in colour. if you water down some paint so it is more of a varnish it give the impression of a denser patch of ice while still making it look see through-ish

i did a bit (about 3ftx3ftx4ft) sculpture for my GCSE art exam and it has ice crystals all over. it was a crystalline city based on Atlantis lol took about 3 weeks preparation for it and then took 10 hours for all the finishing off sculpting and painting. if i can find pics of it i will post it up, i know my school kept pics of it, and actually sold it to a contractor who was working there for like £50. i was happy with the money


----------



## Mini Mosh

i love it! 

just wonderng what type(make) of paint did you use? and where did you get it from? 

I have made some hide for a gecko and have yet to paint them as i hasnt sure where to get the paint and non washable pva glue from

thanks


----------



## luke2702

That looks amazing just hope beardie likes it.. Sure he will...


----------



## snake rescuer

looks amazing mate


----------



## excession

spatte88 said:


> for my next project :lol2:


Was I right in thinking that you said your next project was 2 stacked vivs and you wanted sugestions for themes?


If I am right in thinking that then i have two ideas!

1) heaven and Hell: The top viv could have golden gates and fluffy cloud platforms and the bottom viv all reds and flames and so on! (edit if you had a 3 stack the middle could be earth!)

2) The core: top viv has a prehistoric theme with trees and big rocks and so on, maybe a dino , bottom viv is the earths core i guess looking fairly simalar to the hell viv from above


----------



## spatte88

FireDragon said:


> Well done mate i just came across this and ur doing a superb job amazing and im glad you did a post showing people how creative you can make it. I also want to say thanks for adding 2 of my links in ur very first post on this topic lol. keep up the great work looking forward to seeing it done.
> 
> I did say anyone can do it and all u need is time and imagination and you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt anything is possible with a bit of poly
> 
> 10/10
> 
> Tony


Thanks for the comment, though dont need to blow us up too much as if we hadnt seen your links then we wouldnt have has a clue where to start!!! looking forward to seeing some more of your creations soon​


----------



## spatte88

haunted-havoc said:


> i tip for the ice is, natural ice has denser parts and these are generally dark blue/dark grey or black in colour. if you water down some paint so it is more of a varnish it give the impression of a denser patch of ice while still making it look see through-ish
> 
> i did a bit (about 3ftx3ftx4ft) sculpture for my GCSE art exam and it has ice crystals all over. it was a crystalline city based on Atlantis lol took about 3 weeks preparation for it and then took 10 hours for all the finishing off sculpting and painting. if i can find pics of it i will post it up, i know my school kept pics of it, and actually sold it to a contractor who was working there for like £50. i was happy with the money


 
it might not be very easy to see on the pics but we did a base coat of blue first, with varying shades, to give the ice some depth/density. which is kinda what i think your tip is, though thanks anyway!!!! would be nice to see a pic if you have one though if it is different to what i think you mean! happy for you to PM me it or post here in the thread!


----------



## spatte88

Mini Mosh said:


> i love it!
> 
> just wonderng what type(make) of paint did you use? and where did you get it from?
> 
> I have made some hide for a gecko and have yet to paint them as i hasnt sure where to get the paint and non washable pva glue from
> 
> thanks


we used the paints from Games Workshop as they are water based and so less likely to be toxic to the beardies anmd also come in a very wide variety of colours that are readily available in pretty much any city! if you are doing a large area then these paints can become a little pricey however we found that after a good base coat you could water the paints down a fair bit meaning they lasted a bit longer. in the latter stages of painting (before detailing) we found they (GW) do a spray gun which isnt too pricey and makes the paint go alot further, nevermind making the whole job a lot easier/quicker - only wish i had one from the off! oh well i know now for the next one!

we dont intend to use PVA we are going to use a varnish. The 1st layer is going to be another water based varnish from GW in a spray can to make it easy to apply the 1st layer and give an even coat. we then plan to finish it with a paint on ronseal varnish, of which we will be giving multiple coats! hope this helps!! :2thumb:


----------



## spatte88

excession said:


> Was I right in thinking that you said your next project was 2 stacked vivs and you wanted sugestions for themes?
> 
> 
> If I am right in thinking that then i have two ideas!
> 
> 1) heaven and Hell: The top viv could have golden gates and fluffy cloud platforms and the bottom viv all reds and flames and so on! (edit if you had a 3 stack the middle could be earth!)
> 
> 2) The core: top viv has a prehistoric theme with trees and big rocks and so on, maybe a dino , bottom viv is the earths core i guess looking fairly simalar to the hell viv from above


 
yes you were right about the stacker sytem with two vivs in it and WOW on the brilliant ideas. really love the heaven :halo: and hell :devil: one though not sure what beardie heaven would look like..... possibly full of locusts with silkworm gates :lol2:

read on anopther thread you were thinking of a roman theme for one of yours! jealous i didnt think of it and cant wait to see what ideas/creations you come up with, would love to see some drawings/photos of whatever stage you are at with yours. 

after reading haunted-havoc's post about him doing a project on the sunken city of atlantis we started thinking about Stargate Atlantis and how if we used this idea we could have the 1st/top viv with an above water view of the atlantis city and the lower viv being the underwater scene. Peoples views????

keep the ideas coming guys as the more we have to choose from the better! any pics/drawings you want to do would be fantastic!:cheers:


----------



## spatte88

As you can tell we were just taking a quick break from the sun and thought it would be nice to read and reply to people comments/ideas!!! dont worry as soon as we are home we will be back to building and as you can most probably tell all the lazing around on the beach in the hot sunshine has got us thinking up ideas for the next project!!! Not to make you jealous or anything! :razz:


----------



## Guest

spatte88 said:


> As you can tell we were just taking a quick break from the sun and thought it would be nice to read and reply to people comments/ideas!!! dont worry as soon as we are home we will be back to building and as you can most probably tell all the lazing around on the beach in the hot sunshine has got us thinking up ideas for the next project!!! Not to make you jealous or anything! :razz:


Hope you are having a great holiday  you should get a pencil and a notebook and write down all your ideas and sketches


----------



## excession

spatte88 said:


> yes you were right about the stacker sytem with two vivs in it and WOW on the brilliant ideas. really love the heaven :halo: and hell :devil: one though not sure what beardie heaven would look like..... possibly full of locusts with silkworm gates :lol2:
> 
> read on anopther thread you were thinking of a roman theme for one of yours! jealous i didnt think of it and cant wait to see what ideas/creations you come up with, would love to see some drawings/photos of whatever stage you are at with yours.
> 
> after reading haunted-havoc's post about him doing a project on the sunken city of atlantis we started thinking about Stargate Atlantis and how if we used this idea we could have the 1st/top viv with an above water view of the atlantis city and the lower viv being the underwater scene. Peoples views????
> 
> keep the ideas coming guys as the more we have to choose from the better! any pics/drawings you want to do would be fantastic!:cheers:


Cool thank you 

I think the heaven / hell could be great, but I know I lack the skill to pull that off 

With the core idea I was thinking rather than a dino you could have a big dino skellington 

I am at the stage with ours where I have drawn it out about half a dozen times and I am pretty sure on how I want it.

We' are collecting the viv this Sunday so I will start next week providing I can get my hands on a ton of poly by then 

My plan is to have two buildings, one on the left roughly based on something like this:











Only far simpler! 

And one on the right based on something like this:










Again I will have to simplify it for many reasons, my lack of artistic skill being high amongst them, but also so that it is practical and easy to clean.

I have a few special features planned also and some cunning hides I want to build in to it too.

Looking forwards to starting now


----------



## makeitandskateit

This is a really awesome build!! I love the underfloor heating!!
Have a good time on holiday!!


----------



## RankinsDragons12

wow well done, you are one talented person!!!!!!!! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Mini Mosh

spatte88 said:


> we used the paints from Games Workshop as they are water based and so less likely to be toxic to the beardies anmd also come in a very wide variety of colours that are readily available in pretty much any city! if you are doing a large area then these paints can become a little pricey however we found that after a good base coat you could water the paints down a fair bit meaning they lasted a bit longer. in the latter stages of painting (before detailing) we found they (GW) do a spray gun which isnt too pricey and makes the paint go alot further, nevermind making the whole job a lot easier/quicker - only wish i had one from the off! oh well i know now for the next one!
> 
> we dont intend to use PVA we are going to use a varnish. The 1st layer is going to be another water based varnish from GW in a spray can to make it easy to apply the 1st layer and give an even coat. we then plan to finish it with a paint on ronseal varnish, of which we will be giving multiple coats! hope this helps!! :2thumb:


wow thaank you very much for the advice, i really wanted to finish them but i just didnt know where to turn. We have a GW in our town which is convenient as there isnt much here! 

thanks again


----------



## Pono

This is the best viv i've ever seen! You really have an amazing talent, and you must be a genius to come up with that unique under floor heating! Keep us all updated as i cant wait to see the finished article! :no1:

Ed


----------



## adhamyo

wow! thats one of the best fake rocks i have ever seen.


----------



## suey

Wow!!! You must be back from holiday by now! More pics wanted!! ) Excellent project, well done!


----------



## spatte88

suey said:


> Wow!!! You must be back from holiday by now! More pics wanted!! ) Excellent project, well done!


We're Baaaaaack!!! lol will post some pics tonight to show the little bit we have had chance to do, just to keep you all informed! :2thumb:


----------



## toxic

cracking m8 good job but dont look like there much room left for the Bearded Dargon . Maybe just the photo


----------



## Massis

This must be one of the most beautiful vivs I've seen to date! It's truly great! and I really really like the ice structures.

there is one thing I worry about though: will your beardie (when adult) have enough room to run around in the tank? Since they are only semi-arboreal and live mostly on the flats in Australia, I'd think they prefer large flat areas with a few climbing possibilities instead of a small patch of flat space (left bottom & perch in your tank). 
Of course I don't really know how your beardie will react to the sloped walls of your piramid...

to conclude on the good side: you're idea of the floor heating is absolutely brilliant!


----------



## haunted-havoc

spatte88 said:


> yes you were right about the stacker sytem with two vivs in it and WOW on the brilliant ideas. really love the heaven :halo: and hell :devil: one though not sure what beardie heaven would look like..... possibly full of locusts with silkworm gates :lol2:
> 
> read on anopther thread you were thinking of a roman theme for one of yours! jealous i didnt think of it and cant wait to see what ideas/creations you come up with, would love to see some drawings/photos of whatever stage you are at with yours.
> 
> after reading haunted-havoc's post about him doing a project on the sunken city of atlantis we started thinking about Stargate Atlantis and how if we used this idea we could have the 1st/top viv with an above water view of the atlantis city and the lower viv being the underwater scene. Peoples views????
> 
> keep the ideas coming guys as the more we have to choose from the better! any pics/drawings you want to do would be fantastic!:cheers:


where do you think i got the idea from, also watching that disney film atlantis helped lol.


it would be awesome for a 50/50 land/water amphibian cos then you could get a really cool panoramic view of it all. maybe something like a newt
...damnit now ive given my self an idea lol

cant find any piccies, will ring the school i used to go to tomorrow see if they have one kicking about


----------



## spatte88

Just a little update for you guys!

so far we have started to highlight the pyramid and here is a little snap shot as we havnt finished the whole thing. 










Was thinking of doing some painted patterning on the pyramids though it will take quite a while to make it look really good and time is something im running short of at the mo so may end up leaving it plain - sometimes the simple things look the best! what do you guys reckon????


----------



## zeb123

Good stuff, looking at that picture i get the feeling of looking at a painting. Its very strange. I like it alot!! :notworthy:


----------



## excession

It looks fantastic.

I dont think it will look bad if you dont put a HUGE amount of detail into the painting.

It looks fantastic already


----------



## spatte88

Massis said:


> This must be one of the most beautiful vivs I've seen to date! It's truly great! and I really really like the ice structures.
> 
> there is one thing I worry about though: will your beardie (when adult) have enough room to run around in the tank? Since they are only semi-arboreal and live mostly on the flats in Australia, I'd think they prefer large flat areas with a few climbing possibilities instead of a small patch of flat space (left bottom & perch in your tank).
> Of course I don't really know how your beardie will react to the sloped walls of your piramid...
> 
> to conclude on the good side: you're idea of the floor heating is absolutely brilliant!


Thanks for the nice comments again!!! There should be room for our beardie to run around in the tank and to be honest she loves being on her branch and is very rarely on the floor so we think she will be absolutely fine. we let her out at least once (usually more) a day for a run around in the living room so she does get plenty of exercise that way as well! As previously mentioned if the worst comes to worst we can take out the pyramid, or the full item and sell it! im certain there would be buyers!! :lol2:


----------



## spatte88

excession said:


> It looks fantastic.
> 
> I dont think it will look bad if you dont put a HUGE amount of detail into the painting.
> 
> It looks fantastic already


Thanks!!! how is your roman theme going? if you've made a start you will have to PM me some pics/send me a link to a thread when you get the chance! :2thumb:


----------



## excession

I have started 

I have gotten as far as laying the lino floor tiles and the heat mat.

I have also done the the rough buildings in poly, along with various features like the hides in one of the roofs and a hide under the stairs in one of the buildings.

Ive taken a few snaps, but I am due to go on holiday for a week, So things have ground to a halt now.


----------



## Guest

spatte88 said:


> Just a little update for you guys!
> 
> so far we have started to highlight the pyramid and here is a little snap shot as we havnt finished the whole thing.
> 
> image
> 
> Was thinking of doing some painted patterning on the pyramids though it will take quite a while to make it look really good and time is something im running short of at the mo so may end up leaving it plain - sometimes the simple things look the best! what do you guys reckon????


That looks amazing :O well done you  I would have a look at aztec patterns and designs if you are going down that road, just beware it will take you a year and a day


----------



## spikemu

OMG OMG OMG i just read this whole thread !!!!!

first of all thank you for mentioning my fake rock build xD 

and secondly ........ ithink im in love  with the sheer geekyness (I LOVE GEEKYNESS ) and attention to perfection that you've given ..... the detail .... the pipey thing OMG I LOVE YOU !!!! 

:no1::no1::no1: 

and your beardie HOW CUTE DOES HE LOOK lol


----------



## spatte88

spikemu said:


> OMG OMG OMG i just read this whole thread !!!!!
> 
> first of all thank you for mentioning my fake rock build xD
> 
> and secondly ........ ithink im in love  with the sheer geekyness (I LOVE GEEKYNESS ) and attention to perfection that you've given ..... the detail .... the pipey thing OMG I LOVE YOU !!!!
> 
> :no1::no1::no1:
> 
> and your beardie HOW CUTE DOES HE LOOK lol


ha ha ha i know its pure geek lol but you gotta love it!!!! ill tell my little spectra about your nice comment lol! :2thumb:


----------



## spatte88

oh forgot to mention hopefully we will be finishing painting tonight as have decided that doing the symbols will take far too long and we dont have time at the moment! and it is also something we could add at a later date if we fancied it!!


----------



## knotism037

i will be waiting for pics soon then, so far it's lokking brill.


----------



## Jb1432

Been watching this thread, cant wait to see the finished product mate, looks immense so far. Well done! :2thumb:


----------



## HABU




----------



## nubian

I'm jealous...it looks brilliant!!!


----------



## spikemu

can you get afew lil models of alien nd predator ???:whistling2:

finish the scene ??? lol  

then spectra can feel like shes in the movie !!!  lol


it will officially then be the best beardie viv EVER ..... (as if its not already:whistling2: )


----------



## oakelm

spikemu said:


> can you get afew lil models of alien nd predator ???:whistling2:
> 
> finish the scene ??? lol
> 
> then spectra can feel like shes in the movie !!!  lol
> 
> 
> it will officially then be the best beardie viv EVER ..... (as if its not already:whistling2: )


Calm down, we dont want the little beardie to be having nightmares :lol2:

Great build, cant wait to see it completely finished and beardie installed. Gives you plenty of time to work on an even bigger one for when she is bigger and has friends, another movie themed viv build perhaps??


----------



## spikemu

n'awwwwwww nightmares lol how can u have nightmares when your the king of your own lil movie scene ??? lol


OMG NEXT ONE ..... COW BOYS AND INDIANS ???? or world war 2 !!!! lol

:2thumb:


----------



## oakelm

spikemu said:


> n'awwwwwww nightmares lol how can u have nightmares when your the king of your own lil movie scene ??? lol
> 
> 
> OMG NEXT ONE ..... COW BOYS AND INDIANS ???? or world war 2 !!!! lol
> 
> :2thumb:


Not sure how you would make ww2 without it being a bit morbid. :whistling2:

I was thinking more like indian jones movies, temple of doom or the crusade one with the building carved out the rock.
Giving myself ideas now :lol2:


----------



## Patmufc

That is outstanding m8! :2thumb:


----------



## serpentsupplies

NICCCEEEE. very impressed. you must defo have patience thats for sure!


----------



## Higgt4

oakelm said:


> I was thinking more like indian jones movies, temple of doom or the crusade one with the building carved out the rock.
> Giving myself ideas now :lol2:


That's in Petra just outside Egypt, nearly went to see it a few years ago, but went to Cairo to see the pyramids instead - VERY impressive :gasp:


----------



## lovebugs

wow wow wow oh and did i ssay wow thats the best tank ive ever seen


----------



## Dave-Flames

Looks great but won't that be to small for a beardie?


----------



## cam

wow i am gonna attemt a poloystyrene viv wall


----------



## pymn nice but dim

viv looks great but is there actually anywhere a beardie could strech out withouth being up right you have that shelf but if its not basking where can it walk or lay????


----------



## Pendragon

pymn nice but dim said:


> viv looks great but is there actually anywhere a beardie could strech out withouth being up right you have that shelf but if its not basking where can it walk or lay????


:lol2:

It's a shame that out of 163 posts, only 4 I think mention that this viv is a nice work of art, but it's no beardie viv :whistling2:

Jay


----------



## spatte88

ok well here are some pics of the finished product! unfortunately we didnt have time to do the aztec drawings on it so left it fairly plain! we painted a few cracks and chips to give it a bit of character and make it look more stone like! so here are the pics!

There are two of it in an over all view

















one on the ice cave









one focusing on the pyramid









even on the close up of the pyramid you cant see the cracks, it is only when you look closer that you can see them!

one of the cracks painted on the pyramid










and one or two "chips" on the pyramid










Hope everyone like the finished product! have to let us know what you think!!


----------



## spatte88

spikemu said:


> can you get afew lil models of alien nd predator ???:whistling2:
> 
> finish the scene ??? lol
> 
> then spectra can feel like shes in the movie !!!  lol
> 
> 
> it will officially then be the best beardie viv EVER ..... (as if its not already:whistling2: )



..errm... little models... ahem we already own our own knee high alien that lives in the opposite corner to the viv lol bit big to put in though mind!!!! lol


----------



## spatte88

oakelm said:


> Not sure how you would make ww2 without it being a bit morbid. :whistling2:
> 
> I was thinking more like indian jones movies, temple of doom or the crusade one with the building carved out the rock.
> Giving myself ideas now :lol2:


ha ha yes i would have to agree WW2 might have to be a bit morbid, mud and dead bodies hmmm i think spectra would definitely have nightmares then!!! lol


----------



## spatte88

Dave-Flames said:


> Looks great but won't that be to small for a beardie?





pymn nice but dim said:


> viv looks great but is there actually anywhere a beardie could strech out withouth being up right you have that shelf but if its not basking where can it walk or lay????





jabba1967 said:


> :lol2:
> 
> It's a shame that out of 163 posts, only 4 I think mention that this viv is a nice work of art, but it's no beardie viv :whistling2:
> 
> Jay


i think the pics might be a little deceiving as the viv is 4 foot so is a decent size and there are quite a few spots she can lay out for example under the main basking spot/shelf, there is floor space in front of the pyramid, after/above the bottom set of stairs there is a flat bit (which will be a bit small for her as an adult but is fine for her at the mo hence the reason we dont intend to keep her in here when she is an adult (we mentioned building a stack in a previous post!) any ideas for this are still welcome!!!!) The sloping bit in front of the basking spot and the sloping bit adjoining the main basking spot are also cooler than sitting directly in the heat so she could also lay out here!

hope this answers everyones questions!!!!!


----------



## a1dzcannon

The light blue is that meant to be ice if so looks great!  But personally i think it would look better all rock  Personal view then because it would be more of cave looking. Still AMAZING viv :2thumb:


----------



## spatte88

a1dzcannon said:


> The light blue is that meant to be ice if so looks great!  But personally i think it would look better all rock  Personal view then because it would be more of cave looking. Still AMAZING viv :2thumb:


Thanks and yes it is meant to be ice!


----------



## a1dzcannon

spatte88 said:


> Thanks and yes it is meant to be ice!


Sweet ypur welcome  imma have a shot at one of these some time  did you hand carve it? or machine


----------



## cordylidae

well done

hows the underfloor heating going then it was a very clever idea :no1:


----------



## pymn nice but dim

jabba1967 said:


> :lol2:
> 
> It's a shame that out of 163 posts, only 4 I think mention that this viv is a nice work of art, but it's no beardie viv :whistling2:
> 
> Jay


 
yeah i guess it would be ok for a hatchling for a few weeks but a adult juvy even a young dragon would probably be uncomfortable if that was in a bigger viv with some floow space then i wouldnt hesistate on saying one of the best vivs i mean 10/10 for looks but 4/10 for actual use.


i dont mean this in the wrong way i just think its a shame theres no real comfort factor


----------



## LiamRatSnake

It's amazing... Just debating with myself what I'd put in there... My leos would look good in there...


----------



## Indieflow

pymn nice but dim said:


> yeah i guess it would be ok for a hatchling for a few weeks but a adult juvy even a young dragon would probably be uncomfortable if that was in a bigger viv with some floow space then i wouldnt hesistate on saying one of the best vivs i mean 10/10 for looks but 4/10 for actual use.
> 
> 
> i dont mean this in the wrong way i just think its a shame theres no real comfort factor


Well if your Beardie is anything like mine (just sunbathes all day and that lazy even waits for the food to come to him :lol2 then I'm sure there will be plenty of room in your new viv, which looks ace by the way. Hope you'll post your stack creation as well when you start it?


----------



## Indieflow

LiamRatSnake said:


> It's amazing... Just debating with myself what I'd put in there... My leos would look good in there...


Why not Lucy?:lol2:


----------



## Mujician

Its a shame people dont read things thoroughly!

I dont suppose you could take a photo of it next to something could you, just to put it into perspective. It really doesn't look 4 feet long! It looks more like its 2'! It looks amazing. Can I ask where you got your polystyrene from? It doesn't look like its goin gto break into those liitle balls, is that because you used the wire to cut it? Or is is a denser kind of polystyrene? Thanks, Ben


----------



## Skyespirit86

Ive a couple of concerns over the long term survival of a rock build like this. Don't get me wrong it is an amazing piece of art and the thought you put into the various materials/tools you would need and the heatng system is fantastic.

However I attempted to make some simple hides a while back using the polystyrene-greuting-painting-varnishing method and so I know what these things feel, and look like in person. Grout is a very gritty substance whih doesn't stick increadibly well to polystyrene. The runnier you make it to preserve detail, the weaker it is, and even after several coats, you find bits dropping or chipping off. I remember thinking-why grout? It stuck to the knife I as usng better than the polystyrene! I got through two bags on some tiny little hides and they were pretty expensive!!

Finally I painted and varnished it. They feel very light,and to be fair in places wherethe grout is thinnest (even after several coats) you can still feel springiness if you press it. Every now and the vivs need to b cleaned and disinfected, and detailed parts need to be done properly-especially if you have covered the surface with sand making all kinds of mini nooks and crannies. They may need to be scrubbed a bit for example. If there is the smallest hole in the varnish or grout, water penetrates making it weaker. Scrubbing makes weaker parts come off, or sand if you use it. Even after being varished it is not entirely waterproof, you can never soak pieces unless you want to ruin them and varnish can go kind of 'soft'. Knocks and scratches reveal plain polystyrene underneath after all that hard work. These things aren't like real rock. They are hard work, very expensive...and not premanent. Give it a couple of years and I expect it'll be looking a bit worse for wear. So continual maintenance is needed as ar as keeping it pretty is concerned. 

Are there other materials which can be used that are more permanent and durable?


----------



## Guest

Skyespirit86 said:


> Ive a couple of concerns over the long term survival of a rock build like this. Don't get me wrong it is an amazing piece of art and the thought you put into the various materials/tools you would need and the heatng system is fantastic.
> 
> However I attempted to make some simple hides a while back using the polystyrene-greuting-painting-varnishing method and so I know what these things feel, and look like in person. Grout is a very gritty substance whih doesn't stick increadibly well to polystyrene. The runnier you make it to preserve detail, the weaker it is, and even after several coats, you find bits dropping or chipping off. I remember thinking-why grout? It stuck to the knife I as usng better than the polystyrene! I got through two bags on some tiny little hides and they were pretty expensive!!
> 
> Finally I painted and varnished it. They feel very light,and to be fair in places wherethe grout is thinnest (even after several coats) you can still feel springiness if you press it. Every now and the vivs need to b cleaned and disinfected, and detailed parts need to be done properly-especially if you have covered the surfae ith sad making allkinds of mini nooks and crannies. They may need to be scrubbed a bit for example. If there is the smallest hole in the varnish or grout, water penetrates making it weaker. Scrubbing also makes weaker parts come off, or sand if you use it. Even after being varished it is not entirey waterproof, you can never soak pieces unless you want to ruin them. Knocks an scratches reveal plain polystyrene underneath afterll that hard work. These things aren't like real rock. They are hard work, very expensive...and not premanent. Give it a couple of years and I expect it'll be looking a bit worse for wear. So continual maintenance is needed as ar as keeping it pretty is concerned.
> 
> Are there other materials which can be used that are more permanent and durable?


The grout probably came off as you didn't leave enough time in-between coats for the it to dry. If you have a very intricate background you can use a handheld steam cleaner where no scrubbing is necessary  oh and finally use space boards instead of polystyrene, makes life so much easier, its much more dense than polystyrene so is stronger


----------



## spikemu

spatte88 said:


> ok well here are some pics of the finished product! unfortunately we didnt have time to do the aztec drawings on it so left it fairly plain! we painted a few cracks and chips to give it a bit of character and make it look more stone like! so here are the pics!
> 
> There are two of it in an over all view
> image
> image
> 
> one on the ice cave
> image
> 
> one focusing on the pyramid
> image
> 
> even on the close up of the pyramid you cant see the cracks, it is only when you look closer that you can see them!
> 
> one of the cracks painted on the pyramid
> 
> image
> 
> and one or two "chips" on the pyramid
> 
> image
> 
> Hope everyone like the finished product! have to let us know what you think!!


NOW THAT IS SOOOOOOO FRIGGIN AWESOME !!!!!!
why would a beardie wanna be flat and lay down ???? mor then lay up them stairs ???? or sumin ??? i think it is amazing !!!!!!! 
i would happily put my beardies in there and i think spectra is one of the luckyiest beardie ever , to have such an AWESOMELY GEEKY owner :lol2:



spatte88 said:


> ..errm... little models... ahem we already own our own knee high alien that lives in the opposite corner to the viv lol bit big to put in though mind!!!! lol
> 
> image


 
put that next to the viv take a pic for size comparison :whistling2:

maybe it will show ppl tht its not some small viv but one epic viv. 



final thing PICS OF SPECTRA IN IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol2:


----------



## kimmie86

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
I have a 4ft wide 4ft high 2ft deep viv you are welcome to come and turn into whatever you want!!! that is legend!! 

:no1:


----------



## spatte88

hi guys!! have been away for a few days and the internet connection here is dodgy so cant upload any pictures as it keeps crashing!!!! i will make sure i post some of the ones requested soon!

:2thumb:


----------



## Pendragon

This is a tricky one, It's a bit like modern art, you either love it or hate it, (I hate it by the way).

This forum is about debate, but it would seem that this particular build has generated a massive amount of interest, and it's got to the point where those of us who have concerns about the well being of the animal can't voice our concerns without being shouted down.

This might be a 4 foot viv, but two thirds of it has gone. Then there is the fact it is a glass viv with inadequate ventilation, Humidity people!

Then there is the problem that the uv is too far away.

Then there is the under floor heating, in any other thread you would be told not to use ground heating for a beardie, but in this thread it's ok???

Then there is the fact that we have a desert dweling animal living in a f:censor:G ice cave. 

HELLO...ANYONE HOME....HELLO 

:lol2:

I think the o/p has built this viv for himself, and not his beardie, that is all I am saying, he has let the build take control and precedent over his beardies needs.

I don't want to mess up this blokes thread with a forum war, so understand that this is for the o/p, and the o/p only, so let him reply to me if he wishes.

So Spatte88, I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, It's just some friendly and light harted advice, I'm just trying to point out that the build has got out of control, and this is my opionion, you can take it or leave it.

It is a nice work of art, but maybe a penguin might be more at home in it :whistling2:

:lol2:

Jay


----------



## nuttybulldog

this being the PUBLIC forum that it is i will reply without the permission of anybody.



jabba1967 said:


> This is a tricky one, It's a bit like modern art, you either love it or hate it, (I hate it by the way).


to start with, there was no need for the bit in brackets. the statement before it said enough and following it up with "i hate it by the way" just seems uncalled for and slightly spiteful.



jabba1967 said:


> This forum is about debate, but it would seem that this particular build has generated a massive amount of interest, and it's got to the point where those of us who have concerns about the well being of the animal can't voice our concerns without being shouted down.


i have been a member of this forum for quite a while and i have never seen someone who has genuine concern for an animal shouted down in any thread, be it this one or any other,



jabba1967 said:


> This might be a 4 foot viv, but two thirds of it has gone. Then there is the fact it is a glass viv with inadequate ventilation, Humidity people!


i think two thirds is a bit of an exaggeration. there is floor space in front of the pyramid and beside it as well as the shelf and ramp. most of the space being taken up is in fact wall space which, correct me if im wrong, beardies dont tend to hang around on to often. if you had read the whole thread you would see that the viv originally had to much ventilation so some had to be covered. 



jabba1967 said:


> Then there is the under floor heating, in any other thread you would be told not to use ground heating for a beardie, but in this thread it's ok???


i believe the point of the underfloor heating isnt actually to heat the beardie but to keep the over all temp of the viv up due to the excess of ventilation making it hard to keep the temps stable during the colder months of the year. it does have a basking spot so im guessing that may be the reason but correct me if i am wrong



jabba1967 said:


> Then there is the fact that we have a desert dweling animal living in a f:censor:G ice cave.
> 
> HELLO...ANYONE HOME....HELLO


if you are going in to that kind of argument then you should probably go a bit deeper. surely the fact a wild animal from AUSTRALIA is living in captivity in ENGLAND is more of a worry to you. just to clear this up you do know it isn't actually ice and it will be adequately warm enough for a beardie not to die in there dont ya?

also there really is no need to be so rude and use swear words in a family forum. 



jabba1967 said:


> I think the o/p has built this viv for himself, and not his beardie, that is all I am saying, he has let the build take control and precedent over his beardies needs.


you should probably ask more questions before presuming that the beardies needs aren't cared for. they have said it is only for the beardie while it is young and dont intend to keep it in there when it is an adult



jabba1967 said:


> I don't want to mess up this blokes thread with a forum war, so understand that this is for the o/p, and the o/p only, so let him reply to me if he wishes.


public forum


Spatte88 - its epic and you have done a great job.


----------



## spatte88

nuttybulldog said:


> this being the PUBLIC forum that it is i will reply without the permission of anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> to start with, there was no need for the bit in brackets. the statement before it said enough and following it up with "i hate it by the way" just seems uncalled for and slightly spiteful.
> 
> 
> 
> i have been a member of this forum for quite a while and i have never seen someone who has genuine concern for an animal shouted down in any thread, be it this one or any other,
> 
> 
> 
> i think two thirds is a bit of an exaggeration. there is floor space in front of the pyramid and beside it as well as the shelf and ramp. most of the space being taken up is in fact wall space which, correct me if im wrong, beardies dont tend to hang around on to often. if you had read the whole thread you would see that the viv originally had to much ventilation so some had to be covered.
> 
> 
> 
> i believe the point of the underfloor heating isnt actually to heat the beardie but to keep the over all temp of the viv up due to the excess of ventilation making it hard to keep the temps stable during the colder months of the year. it does have a basking spot so im guessing that may be the reason but correct me if i am wrong
> 
> 
> 
> if you are going in to that kind of argument then you should probably go a bit deeper. surely the fact a wild animal from AUSTRALIA is living in captivity in ENGLAND is more of a worry to you. just to clear this up you do know it isn't actually ice and it will be adequately warm enough for a beardie not to die in there dont ya?
> 
> also there really is no need to be so rude and use swear words in a family forum.
> 
> 
> 
> you should probably ask more questions before presuming that the beardies needs aren't cared for. they have said it is only for the beardie while it is young and dont intend to keep it in there when it is an adult
> 
> 
> 
> public forum
> 
> 
> Spatte88 - its epic and you have done a great job.



1st of all i have to say thank you very much to nuttybulldog for his response he has pretty much hit the nail on the head and taken the words out of our mouths however i would like to have my input also as you can imagine!

Jabba, thanks for the post. Like you mention threads are about debating and I’m glad you mentioned your opinion as we are getting people from both sides of the fence commenting on our viv build. Its good to be passionate about your pets and their wellbeing and in your case your fear for our beardies health.

With your thoughts on two thirds of the vivarium being taken up by the structure I have to say you are slightly wrong. When you actually look at the volume of the viv and the volume taken up by the structure you are more looking at a ratio of one sixth of the area being used! Basically rather than being a flat open area it is now a multi layered environment giving the animal many different areas to explore or bask at different temperatures. Yes there are only a few little flat areas left available for the Beardie to do shuttle runs in or what ever you believe a Beardie requires a large amount floor space for other than basking. :lol2: Though I can assure you we do give her plenty of opportunity to roam outside of the viv (in large flat areas) and it is our aim that when sat in the living room with her we will occasionally leave the door open for her to walk out for a cuddle if she so wishes.

Also by your comments on a glass viv you also seem badly informed! If it was a sealed four walled glass fish tank then yes the humidity would be through the roof! If you look earlier in the thread we posted a link to the manufacturers website which shows how the viv has a vent the full length of the front as well as the roof being mesh. We monitor the humidity with a hydrogemetor and have not seen it rise above 10%.Glass vivs are also best for hygiene reasons and ease of cleaning. There down side is heat loss hence the amount of structure, underfloor heating and our electricity bill :lol2:

The penetration range of the tubes we are using is 60cm which is the approx height of the viv however we still made sure all the main basking spots are positioned within 30cm of the tubes. So unless our girl digs through the bottom of the viv or sits under the main basking spot she cant get away from the UV!

The underfloor heating is not really a concern either as it really just stops the structure from feeling cool to the touch or as nuttybulldog put it to keep the overall temp of the viv up. It is more a way of distributing some of the heat from the basking spot when it is cool perhaps we should have called it underfloor heat distribution system to prevent any confusion!?! When we check the temperatures with an infrared temp gun the structure measures between 82-84 degrees which we believe is the ideal temp for them in the cool end. Think how hot sand is on the beach or tarmac is in the street, not saying that is what they live on in the wild though my point being in the wild the floor gets warm from the sun.


Though must admit you’ve got me on the desert animal living in a F****G ice cave though don’t think Spec has being back packing in Australia and most animals don’t see in colour (not sure if this is the case for beardies) and it isnt actually ice? the point is also how many beardies in Australia do you see living in wooden boxes with glass doors? :hmm: anyway at the end of the day its warm, light, clean, varied and full of food! as far as im aware exactly what a beardie needs.

The comment i have to admit i am most upset about it the one where you insinuate that my beardie's needs have not been catered for however we have made the decor to suit our beardie's habits and in our experience she doesnt often use the floor space she has in her current viv she is always up on her branch basking! Spectra is very well looked after i can assure you of that - we both love her to bits and she is always kept in a clean, healthy environment with plenty of attention and love. if we didn't care surely we would not have even bothered attempting this in the first place? surely we would have just put her in a "pet shop" set up with minimal furniture and effort?? I hope this response answers your questions fully and settles your concerns. if you check out the next post i am going to put on it shows some pics of her in the viv and if anything she look brighter and more healthy in this viv than she did in her other one!!!

thanks


----------



## spatte88

Ok as requested guys here are some pics of spec in her new viv however she isnt living in there yet as we want to be 100% sure that all smells/fumes have gone before moving her in permanently!

spec on her basking spot

















distance shot of spec on her basking spot

















spec climbing the apples and pears (stairs)

















spec being an inquisitive little so and so with the doors open! 









i would just like to point out that she doesn't seem stressed in any of these pictures so her soon to be new home cant be that bad for her? she seemed to enjoy it anyway! :2thumb:

oh she is nearly 14" long just so you have a size for comparison!


----------



## spikemu

jabba1967 said:


> This is a tricky one, It's a bit like modern art, you either love it or hate it, (I hate it by the way).
> 
> This forum is about debate, but it would seem that this particular build has generated a massive amount of interest, and it's got to the point where those of us who have concerns about the well being of the animal can't voice our concerns without being shouted down.
> 
> This might be a 4 foot viv, but two thirds of it has gone. Then there is the fact it is a glass viv with inadequate ventilation, Humidity people!
> 
> Then there is the problem that the uv is too far away.
> 
> Then there is the under floor heating, in any other thread you would be told not to use ground heating for a beardie, but in this thread it's ok???
> 
> Then there is the fact that we have a desert dweling animal living in a f:censor:G ice cave.
> 
> HELLO...ANYONE HOME....HELLO
> 
> :lol2:
> 
> I think the o/p has built this viv for himself, and not his beardie, that is all I am saying, he has let the build take control and precedent over his beardies needs.
> 
> I don't want to mess up this blokes thread with a forum war, so understand that this is for the o/p, and the o/p only, so let him reply to me if he wishes.
> 
> So Spatte88, I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, It's just some friendly and light harted advice, I'm just trying to point out that the build has got out of control, and this is my opionion, you can take it or leave it.
> 
> It is a nice work of art, but maybe a penguin might be more at home in it :whistling2:
> 
> :lol2:
> 
> Jay


ok i wanna add me 2 p worth .... thts all its worth 

SINCE WHEN ....HAVE BEARDIES ..... not lived in ice caves ??? 
they would rather live in an ice cave from alien vs predator IN FACT that is their natural habitat ...... i mean im top beardie expert here i know for afact that all wild types want to live in ice caves ...... they TALK TO ME !!! :lol2:

serious side apart i agree with wat nuttydog (i think tht was his name... sorry if i got it wrong lol) says about thinkin and asking before u accuse of beardies needs not thought of. 

i mean looking aty it .... yes its an ice cave .... NOT made of ice tho .... it has a basking spot :thumb: 
.... it has a place where it can completely lay flat :thumb: 
it has places it can climb and hide:thumb: 
it has UV that it can get too easily :thumb:
it has its own movie scene :thumb:
what else does a beardie need ??? .... except maybe a role in the movie ??? maybe the king predator ??? you know a big role lol 

the underfloor heating is said to be bad when used as a primary means of heating ... but to boost the temps (mainly coz its glass) for one will definatly benefit the beardie TWO mimic its habitat in the wild (they have a hot floor) and THREE shows that the owner has given ALOT of thought into this build and only has the beardies thoughts at heart . 

think before accusing :whip:

spike out :lol2:


----------



## Pendragon

spikemu said:


> ok i wanna add me 2 p worth .... thts all its worth
> 
> SINCE WHEN ....HAVE BEARDIES ..... not lived in ice caves ???
> they would rather live in an ice cave from alien vs predator IN FACT that is their natural habitat ...... i mean im top beardie expert here i know for afact that all wild types want to live in ice caves ...... they TALK TO ME !!! :lol2:
> 
> serious side apart i agree with wat nuttydog (i think tht was his name... sorry if i got it wrong lol) says about thinkin and asking before u accuse of beardies needs not thought of.
> 
> i mean looking aty it .... yes its an ice cave .... NOT made of ice tho .... it has a basking spot :thumb:
> .... it has a place where it can completely lay flat :thumb:
> it has places it can climb and hide:thumb:
> it has UV that it can get too easily :thumb:
> it has its own movie scene :thumb:
> what else does a beardie need ??? .... except maybe a role in the movie ??? maybe the king predator ??? you know a big role lol
> 
> the underfloor heating is said to be bad when used as a primary means of heating ... but to boost the temps (mainly coz its glass) for one will definatly benefit the beardie TWO mimic its habitat in the wild (they have a hot floor) and THREE shows that the owner has given ALOT of thought into this build and only has the beardies thoughts at heart .
> 
> think before accusing :whip:
> 
> spike out :lol2:


Ouch!

And I thought we were friends.

:lol2:

I remember a nice young chap who made the comment after seeing my viv, that "naturalistic is the way to go".

This forum has changed you man :devil:

This one is my favourate;

".... it has a place where it can completely lay flat :thumb:"

Priceless :lol2:

Have you finnished your crestie build yet?

Jay


----------



## diamondlil

Great to see the viv finished!


----------



## cordylidae

jabba1967 said:


> Then there is the fact that we have a desert dweling animal living in a f:censor:G ice cave.
> 
> HELLO...ANYONE HOME....HELLO
> 
> :lol2:


id tell john cootes and t-rex that beardies shouldnt live on something replicating ice/snow T-Rex Desert Snow Substrate


----------



## spatte88

diamondlil said:


> Great to see the viv finished!


Thanks!!!


----------



## xautomaticflowersx

Gives me so many ideas! Which I'm not sure is a good or bad thing to be honest! I think the bank manager would probably say it's a bad thing!:whip:
Spec looks really lovely against her icy new backdrop. It makes her colours really stand out.
:no1:


----------



## spikemu

jabba1967 said:


> Ouch!
> 
> And I thought we were friends.
> 
> :lol2:
> 
> I remember a nice young chap who made the comment after seeing my viv, that "naturalistic is the way to go".
> 
> This forum has changed you man :devil:
> 
> This one is my favourate;
> 
> ".... it has a place where it can completely lay flat :thumb:"
> 
> Priceless :lol2:
> 
> Have you finnished your crestie build yet?
> 
> Jay


 
naturalistic is the way to go .....doesnt mean that a viv like this isnt the way to go also lol  when their this good i mean like yea not natural but still friggin AWESOME !!!!! 

have u not seen infront of the pyramid ??? 
and under the basking spot ledge ??? and the basking spot ledge ??? 
theres more than enough roomfor its shuttle runs as spatte said lol

 

my crestie viv has gone to a future tokay viv


----------



## DeanB500

Hi,
I have been slowly reading every post over the last couple of days (only just found the site)

What an excellent build - i real inspiration to a newbie viv builder/snake owner like me.

To refer to the recent debate i feel that someone left out a valid point, why shouldnt you build the viv for you? Its your pet after all.

Keep up the good care


----------



## bothrops

Personally I think Jabba owes you an apology (the viv is clearly more than suitable for the beardies needs despite his PERSONAL *OPINION* of the design :whip:

Jabba - it's fine that you prefer naturalistic enclosures (link to your vivs to show how you do it perhaps?) and you are well within your rights to voice that opinion, but the swearing coupled with the implication the beardies needs are not being met are not only ludicrous and offensive but actually make you appear like a bit of a muppet TBH....




....just wanted to pick you up on this bit of one of your posts Spatte - just to let you know so-to-speak, learn something new everyday and all that.....




spatte88 said:


> ........and most animals don’t see in colour (not sure if this is the case for beardies)............


In fact most animals have *very good* colour vision and most is even better than ours!
All birds and most insects have excellent colour vision (or else bird plumage and flower colours would be a little pointless!) and reptiles have exceptional colour vision. They have a better range of detection than we do as they are able to detect UV wavelengths _on top of_ the 'human visible spectrum'. In fact it used to be believed that only a few animals could detect UV (insects mainly and the odd bird) but in the last decade or so it has come to light that actually the 'default' position is a detection of UV and it is only higher primates that have _lost_ the ability!

Even the humble goldfish has been shown to have better colour discrimination than us in certain light conditions having tetrachromatic vision (UV, high, medium and low wavelength cones) versus our trichromatic vision (high, medium, low)

Sorry, went into one there - bit random I know, but it's late, I'm very tired and in an odd place.......



Cheers

Andy


----------



## smart1

top job,best ive seen:2thumb:


----------



## Morgan Freeman

It's a fantastic viv it really is, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. If I'm going to be honest I did feel it look a little small for a beardie, but then I assumed it was only a 3ft from the pic.


----------



## Pendragon

bothrops said:


> Personally I think Jabba owes you an apology (the viv is clearly more than suitable for the beardies needs despite his PERSONAL *OPINION* of the design :whip:
> 
> Jabba - it's fine that you prefer naturalistic enclosures (link to your vivs to show how you do it perhaps?) and you are well within your rights to voice that opinion, but the swearing coupled with the implication the beardies needs are not being met are not only ludicrous and offensive but actually make you appear like a bit of a muppet TBH....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....just wanted to pick you up on this bit of one of your posts Spatte - just to let you know so-to-speak, learn something new everyday and all that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact most animals have *very good* colour vision and most is even better than ours!
> All birds and most insects have excellent colour vision (or else bird plumage and flower colours would be a little pointless!) and reptiles have exceptional colour vision. They have a better range of detection than we do as they are able to detect UV wavelengths _on top of_ the 'human visible spectrum'. In fact it used to be believed that only a few animals could detect UV (insects mainly and the odd bird) but in the last decade or so it has come to light that actually the 'default' position is a detection of UV and it is only higher primates that have _lost_ the ability!
> 
> Even the humble goldfish has been shown to have better colour discrimination than us in certain light conditions having tetrachromatic vision (UV, high, medium and low wavelength cones) versus our trichromatic vision (high, medium, low)
> 
> Sorry, went into one there - bit random I know, but it's late, I'm very tired and in an odd place.......
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


:lol2:

There is a saying;

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit"

It would seem there are a lot of baffled people on this thread, welcome to the gang : victory:.

All I ask people to do is look past the very nice looking build, and look at the setup.

Basking site too high.

food and water bowl under the basking site.

about one and a half square foot of usable flat level ground.

No where for the animal to hide.

Uvb tube too far away.

Viv made of glass.

I could write a whole page explaining why all these things are wrong, but I would be wasting my time. Every point I made in my main post has been miss understood, miss interpreted, or answered with, what can only be described as complete twaddle.

As a case in point that you Bothrops, just like most on here have trouble reading and understanding what is right infront of your face. Check my signature, there *IS* a link to my viv build????

Muppet :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Jay


----------



## bothrops

jabba1967 said:


> :lol2:
> 
> There is a saying;
> 
> "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bull:censor:"
> 
> It was the swearing and the way you said things that was the issue, and not exactly what you said. I still feel you owe the OP an apology for your rudeness......and here you are swearing again! Please remember this is a family forum - take your potty mouth the the over 18 section.
> 
> I'm happy to discuss all of your points, but would prefer to do it is a civilised and adult manner.
> 
> It would seem there are a lot of baffled people on this thread, welcome to the gang : victory:.
> 
> Not baffled - just not as full of my own importance that I think I'm the only person who knows how to look after a bearded dragon and anyone that does it differently from the caresheet I just read from google must be wrong.....: victory:
> 
> All I ask people to do is look past the very nice looking build, and look at the setup.
> 
> Cracking build, not everyones cup of tea (I personally would always go with realisitic vivs if I was going to this effort, but thats my personal taste, its got nothing to do with the suitability of the viv as a habitat.
> 
> Basking site too high.
> 
> for what? are you saying beardies can't/won't climb? As they live amongst rocks and small shrubs in the wild they are often found basking realtively high up (they actually like the vantage point it gives them as they scan for possible prey. Give a beardie a two foot tall branch/log and it WILL climb it and sit in it very happily...
> 
> food and water bowl under the basking site.
> 
> so? Any place they are put they can be defecated in, and as with any position they would need to be monitored and cleaned anyway so whats your point here? In fact, I know many dragons that purposly move away from basking sites to defeacate (not to the extent of leos obviously, but still....)
> 
> about one and a half square foot of usable flat level ground.
> 
> I measure a bit more than that, but I'm not sure why you think this 'flat level ground' is so important anyway!? All the beardies I know _*prefer*_ to rest on a slope, head highest.....
> 
> No where for the animal to hide.
> 
> OK, you've got me there. Although there does appear to be a 'sheltered' area under the basking shelf, but that hardly constitutes anything more than a 'maybe you should put a hide in?' from you rather than the berating you originally gave?
> 
> Uvb tube too far away.
> 
> That has already been covered in terms of the positioning of basking site and the penetration of the particular bulb used
> 
> Viv made of glass.
> 
> ...and? Looks to me that you have also used a glass viv for your cresties? All the problems with glass are associated with sealed glass 'aquariums' (i.e. like you used for your cresties : victory: ). The issues of approaching from above and lack of ventilation are covered by the fact this is a custom, front opening job. Other issues include heat loss (covered by the polystyrene, OP's heating bill and the underfloor heating - none compromising the animals welfare) and security (I see no more open sides than a standard wooden viv with glass doors). Again, could you clarify how the fact it is glass effects the welfare of the animal or makes this unsuitable? It really sounds that you read that 'glass tanks are bad' on a forum and have made no further effort to find out why or realise that the problems can be (and have been) dealt with...
> 
> I could write a whole page explaining why all these things are wrong, but I would be wasting my time. Every point I made in my main post has been miss understood, miss interpreted, or answered with, what can only be described as complete twaddle.
> 
> I would like you to 'write a whole page' as I have. The points were not 'misinterpretated, misunderstood or answered with 'twaddle' (aee above). The point was (despite what your ego tells you) the points were understood, taken on board and considered wrong, uneducated and misinformed. Add to that the fact that you felt the need to swear and shout rather than discuss your concerns in a sensible and mature manner and you should start to see our issues......
> 
> As a case in point that you Bothrops, just like most on here have trouble reading and understanding what is right infront of your face. Check my signature, there *IS* a link to my viv build????
> 
> ...yeah...a *cresty *viv build.....not sure how thats relevant to a thread about _beardy_ husbandry? Maybe I missed something in my herpetology 101 class?:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Muppet :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> Fraggle :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Jay
> Andy


 
.......:whistling2:


Cheers

Andy


----------



## adamobie1

*Set up*

Ignore everyone,
Jealousy is a big thing, not everyone has the ability to achieve this type of workman ship.

I know I would do a scenery if I had the patients and knowledge.

Fairplay, hope the little one enjoys his new pad!

Maybe put some pics of the double one up to see the progress on that one. I'm sure everyone will be watching the thread.

:no1:


----------



## Jade01

I think it's a nice viv, but a beadie wont be able to live for long in that, I'm not trying to put a downer on it at all, its just the truth of it tbh...

Theres just not enough floor space for a beardie to move around enough


----------



## Pendragon

Nice one Andy, yet again you prove to me that you haven't got a clue, I could correct you on every one of the points that you made, but I've tried that befor, and all that lead to was gross exaggeration and an abillity to not understand simple points.

What the hell, lets bring one up to prove a point;

"Viv made of glass."

...and? Looks to me that you have also used a glass viv for your cresties? All the problems with glass are associated with sealed glass 'aquariums' (i.e. like you used for your cresties : victory: ). The issues of approaching from above and lack of ventilation are covered by the fact this is a custom, front opening job. Other issues include heat loss (covered by the polystyrene, OP's heating bill and the underfloor heating - none compromising the animals welfare) and security (I see no more open sides than a standard wooden viv with glass doors). Again, could you clarify how the fact it is glass effects the welfare of the animal or makes this unsuitable? It really sounds that you read that 'glass tanks are bad' on a forum and have made no further effort to find out why or realise that the problems can be (and have been) dealt with...

Yes I have used a glass viv for my crestie, the reason for using glass vivs for an animal that requires a hi level of humidity is that glass causes and holds in more humidity. :hmm:

Should I repeat that bit, or has it sunk in?

Now you may ask why is this, so I will explain.

Glass is a poor conductor of heat, this is another problem with glass, you can get the basking temp right, but as glass doesn't conduct or hold heat vey well the temps drop too quickly, so the cool end tends to be too cool. This is worse of course if the room the viv is in is cold.

The o/p has tried to get around this major flaw in two ways.

One, fit underfloor heating, two, cover the top. These are both very good solutions, as this is what amphib keepers do to heat their glass vivs, as it gives a good even temp, and has the benifit of creating and holding in more humidity...Whoops! should I repeat that last bit.

"as this is what amphib keepers do to heat there glass vivs, as it gives a good even temp, and has the benifit of creating and holding in more humidity"

:hmm:It would seem we have solved one problem, and created another more dangerous one. Respiratory infection.

Now you may ask, but Jay, where does all this humidity come from? I mean what's the difference between glass and wood? Well I'm glad you asked. Ok here comes the science.

Some materials cause water to build up on their surfaces when exposed to different pressures or temps. To give you an example of this. If you sit in your car on a winters day with the engine off and the windows closed, your windows will mist up, this wont hapen in the summer, Why?

The reason is the inside of your car with you in it will make the inside of the car warmer than the outside, this makes your breath, and indeed any moisture in the car condense and form water on the inside of the glass. You will get the same effect with a glass viv, especially in the winter when there will be a bigger difference in temps from day to night. So as the temps rapidly drop inside the viv when the heating goes off, this will form water, this probably wont be visible, but it will be there, it will settle on the floor, and then in the morning when this brilliant underfloor heating gets turnd on, WHAM! a big fat dose of humidity, held in by the nice cover :hmm:

As you can see this is a lot to explain, and as I already know from experience Andy, as learned as you are, you have trouble grasping some facts, and if you don't get it, what chance has the average hobbiest got?

Suffice to say it is easier to say "don't use glass vivs for diurnal desert lizards".

Oh, and one more point, "google care sheets"? you know my girlfriend, you know where she works, and you know I have access to hers, and the scientists she works with vast wealth of Knowledge!!! Why do I have to google when I know the best herp keepers in the world??? Are you mad??

Jay


----------



## Tehanu

So this is the Ferplast Explora 110 then?

glass terrarium, Glass terrariums Explora 110 - FERPLAST

The dimensions seem to be 110L x 45D x 61H cms...


----------



## Indieflow

The o/p has tried to get around this major flaw in two ways.

One, fit underfloor heating, two, cover the top. These are both very good solutions, as this is what amphib keepers do to heat their glass vivs, as it gives a good even temp, and has the benifit of creating and holding in more humidity...Whoops! should I repeat that last bit.

Wow! Jabba what an ace comment!

Sorry that was sarcasm! From what I've read of your posts and peoples comments either you can't read or your just not interested in what other people have to say and just go off on one! Yes your desciptions of humidity and condensation are great but did you some how miss Spatte's link to the manufacturers website (which shows the ventilation system), the fact that the roof is mesh (though you seem somehow to believe they have covered it, made up in your one track mind I guess) or the fact they monitor the humidity and it's less than 10%? By the sound of the set up i'd say it's more ventilated than a wooden viv!

Oh one last thing I especially liked the way you big'd up yourself by mentioning who your seeing!:lol2:


----------



## Pendragon

Indieflow said:


> The o/p has tried to get around this major flaw in two ways.
> 
> One, fit underfloor heating, two, cover the top. These are both very good solutions, as this is what amphib keepers do to heat their glass vivs, as it gives a good even temp, and has the benifit of creating and holding in more humidity...Whoops! should I repeat that last bit.
> 
> Wow! Jabba what an ace comment!
> 
> Sorry that was sarcasm! From what I've read of your posts and peoples comments either you can't read or your just not interested in what other people have to say and just go off on one! Yes your desciptions of humidity and condensation are great but did you some how miss Spatte's link to the manufacturers website (which shows the ventilation system), the fact that the roof is mesh (though you seem somehow to believe they have covered it, made up in your one track mind I guess) or the fact they monitor the humidity and it's less than 10%? By the sound of the set up i'd say it's more ventilated than a wooden viv!
> 
> Oh one last thing I especially liked the way you big'd up yourself by mentioning who your seeing!:lol2:


:lol2:

Who the hell are you? 3 poster.

:lol2:

I've said all there is to say on this thread, It's like I'm dealing with school kids. Am I the only adult on this forum?

The biggest and saddest irony of this thread is that it was me who said "I" didn't want to ruin this thread for Spatte88 by getting into a forum war, here is an extract of the post;



I think the o/p has built this viv for himself, and not his beardie, that is all I am saying, he has let the build take control and precedent over his beardies needs.

I don't want to mess up this blokes thread with a forum war, so understand that this is for the o/p, and the o/p only, so let him reply to me if he wishes.

So Spatte88, I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, It's just some friendly and light harted advice, I'm just trying to point out that the build has got out of control, and this is my opionion, you can take it or leave it.

It is a nice work of art, but maybe a penguin might be more at home in it :whistling2:


And yet all of Spatte88's so called friends didn't have the courtesy to at least p.m me if they wanted to defend her/his honour. instead they stuck their noses in with no other intention but to start a fight, and ruin the o/p's thread, idiots.

Well done, take a bow :notworthy: children, and grow up.

Jay


----------



## Tehanu

Posters have consistently pointed out their concerns with the size and functionality of this design throughout the topic.



toxic said:


> That looks nice m8 loads of work going in to it but the viv dont look that big.





rase0121 said:


> the only thing i can think of iswheres the hides? you ming be able to make 1





MadFerret! said:


> Do think it looks extremely small though now it's packed full of poly. Are you not concerned about the lack of usable floor space? Or are these pics just taken in a strange perspective, so that the enclosure is huge but looks small?





toxic said:


> cracking m8 good job but dont look like there much room left for the Bearded Dargon . Maybe just the photo





Massis said:


> there is one thing I worry about though: will your beardie (when adult) have enough room to run around in the tank? Since they are only semi-arboreal and live mostly on the flats in Australia, I'd think they prefer large flat areas with a few climbing possibilities instead of a small patch of flat space (left bottom & perch in your tank).
> Of course I don't really know how your beardie will react to the sloped walls of your piramid...





Dave-Flames said:


> Looks great but won't that be to small for a beardie?





pymn nice but dim said:


> viv looks great but is there actually anywhere a beardie could strech out withouth being up right you have that shelf but if its not basking where can it walk or lay????





pymn nice but dim said:


> yeah i guess it would be ok for a hatchling for a few weeks but a adult juvy even a young dragon would probably be uncomfortable if that was in a bigger viv with some floow space then i wouldnt hesistate on saying one of the best vivs i mean 10/10 for looks but 4/10 for actual use.
> 
> i dont mean this in the wrong way i just think its a shame theres no real comfort factor





Morgan Freeman said:


> It's a fantastic viv it really is, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. If I'm going to be honest I did feel it look a little small for a beardie, but then I assumed it was only a 3ft from the pic.





Jade01 said:


> I think it's a nice viv, but a beadie wont be able to live for long in that, I'm not trying to put a downer on it at all, its just the truth of it tbh...
> 
> Theres just not enough floor space for a beardie to move around enough


 
The OP, credit given has indeed stated that she doesn't intend to keep the animal in there once it is adult, the viv may be adapted or sold and replaced;



spatte88 said:


> worst case scenario when she gets bigger we can just take out the pyramid and make the background ice, or even worse still we can sell the viv! i'm sure we wouldnt have any trouble selling it!





spatte88 said:


> i think the pics might be a little deceiving as the viv is 4 foot so is a decent size and there are quite a few spots she can lay out for example under the main basking spot/shelf, there is floor space in front of the pyramid, after/above the bottom set of stairs there is a flat bit (which will be a bit small for her as an adult but is fine for her at the mo hence the reason we dont intend to keep her in here when she is an adult.


So we'll be seeing the advert for it or build #2 in about three months time max hopefully!


We also have the issue about size, the actual viv is an initial floor space of just over 43" by 17". 



spatte88 said:


> The viv measures 44 x 18 x 24 so not too massive :lol2:





spatte88 said:


> i think the pics might be a little deceiving as the viv is 4 foot so is a decent size


 
Then we have the issue of UV. The OP is misinformed about the output and useful distance of the tube they are using.



spatte88 said:


> Oh something i forgot to mention on day 5 that *we looked into UV ranges as well as the temps so made sure the basking spot was within 30cm of the source even though we believe the UV range of the tubes we have are 50cm* - again better to be safe than sorry!





spatte88 said:


> The *penetration range of the tubes we are using is 60cm* which is the approx height of the viv however we still made sure all the main basking spots are positioned within 30cm of the tubes. So unless our girl digs through the bottom of the viv or sits under the main basking spot she cant get away from the UV!


The OP seems to have used information about the Ferplast 10% uvb tube, that they "concluded" during this topic, complete with some handy misinformation from other members;
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/351285-uv-lamps-penetration-distances.html

This particular quote;


spatte88 said:


> when searching online i found an Exoterra reptiglow UVB bulb (10%) which stated it should penetrate upto 50cm without loss of UV sooo.... would you assume that the ferplast would be the same considering it is the same percentage?


A basking spot 30cm from a Ferplast 10% UVB tube even under a reflector is simply not enough for a high UVB demand species like the bearded dragon.
Get a UVB meter and see for yourself.

Anyway.
The OP doesn't intend to use it for an adult beardie as they've realised it just isn't suitable.
Plenty of readers saw the same thing.
Some people just saw an amazing piece of art and nothing beyond that.
The viv is too small, not designed as appropriately for a beardie of any size as it could have been and is for it's intended purpose, an epic waste of time with a poor level of uv exposure.

I don't think anyone owes anyone an apology, I think we need to remember the living animal that this viv was for and stop jumping to the defence of the OP when they have clearly misrepresented the size of the viv and stated things about the UV they are providing that are incorrect. (whether by accident or confusion etc is irrelevant).

Cheers!
Lotte***


----------



## bothrops

Ah!....the penny drops! TBH Jay, I rarely take any notice of the usernames and I hadn't twigged that I was talking to you. With that in mind please accept my apologies for the 'google' remark, it wasn't necessary and clearly not true.

Anyway....





jabba1967 said:


> Nice one Andy, yet again you prove to me that you haven't got a clue, I could correct you on every one of the points that you made, but I've tried that befor, and all that lead to was gross exaggeration and an abillity to not understand simple points.
> 
> Thats a little harsh mate. Surely what it actually leads to is a debate/discussion/sharing of opinions that ALL readers benefit from. I think I could argue about abilities of putting points across (and the way it is done) just as strongly as you can argue that they are misunderstood..
> 
> What the hell, lets bring one up to prove a point;
> 
> Good stuff - after all, what good is argueing if counter points aren't offered!
> 
> 
> "Viv made of glass."
> 
> ...and? Looks to me that you have also used a glass viv for your cresties? All the problems with glass are associated with sealed glass 'aquariums' (i.e. like you used for your cresties : victory: ). The issues of approaching from above and lack of ventilation are covered by the fact this is a custom, front opening job. Other issues include heat loss (covered by the polystyrene, OP's heating bill and the underfloor heating - none compromising the animals welfare) and security (I see no more open sides than a standard wooden viv with glass doors). Again, could you clarify how the fact it is glass effects the welfare of the animal or makes this unsuitable? It really sounds that you read that 'glass tanks are bad' on a forum and have made no further effort to find out why or realise that the problems can be (and have been) dealt with...
> 
> Yes I have used a glass viv for my crestie, the reason for using glass vivs for an animal that requires a hi level of humidity is that glass causes and holds in more humidity. :hmm:
> 
> Should I repeat that bit, or has it sunk in?
> 
> Knew it right from the beginning! Not quite sure why the sarcasm is necessary? You seem to be implying that I thought that the glass tank was a bad idea for cresties? Not so. I fully understand the choice of enclosure (and LOVE your naturalistic viv - I merely mentioned it as a poor example of how a beardie viv 'should be done'....
> 
> Now you may ask why is this, so I will explain.
> 
> Glass is a poor conductor of heat, this is another problem with glass, you can get the basking temp right, but as glass doesn't conduct or hold heat vey well the temps drop too quickly, so the cool end tends to be too cool. This is worse of course if the room the viv is in is cold.
> 
> The o/p has tried to get around this major flaw in two ways.
> 
> One, fit underfloor heating, two, cover the top. These are both very good solutions, as this is what amphib keepers do to heat their glass vivs, as it gives a good even temp, and has the benifit of creating and holding in more humidity...Whoops! should I repeat that last bit.
> 
> "as this is what amphib keepers do to heat there glass vivs, as it gives a good even temp, and has the benifit of creating and holding in more humidity"
> 
> :hmm:It would seem we have solved one problem, and created another more dangerous one. Respiratory infection.
> 
> Now you may ask, but Jay, where does all this humidity come from? I mean what's the difference between glass and wood? Well I'm glad you asked. Ok here comes the science.
> 
> Some materials cause water to build up on their surfaces when exposed to different pressures or temps. To give you an example of this. If you sit in your car on a winters day with the engine off and the windows closed, your windows will mist up, this wont hapen in the summer, Why?
> 
> The reason is the inside of your car with you in it will make the inside of the car warmer than the outside, this makes your breath, and indeed any moisture in the car condense and form water on the inside of the glass. You will get the same effect with a glass viv, especially in the winter when there will be a bigger difference in temps from day to night. So as the temps rapidly drop inside the viv when the heating goes off, this will form water, this probably wont be visible, but it will be there, it will settle on the floor, and then in the morning when this brilliant underfloor heating gets turnd on, WHAM! a big fat dose of humidity, held in by the nice cover :hmm:
> 
> 
> I can see your point to a certain extent, but I think you are over playing the severity of the problem. If he was keeping his viv in a garage, or shed then the loss of temperature/condensation of damp would be a major problem indeed, however (and this is why all of the above leans towards the 'gross over exageration' you accuse me of)...this viv is in a centrally heated house, that presumably doesn't have damp problems and doesn't have all the doors and windows opened all night in the middle of winter. The amount of moisture in the air inside the viv will be minimal (the CHE will dry the air out pretty effectively during the day) and when the heating goes off in the viv, the temp will not plummet as the outside temperature is unlikely to be below 18/19 degrees even in a cold house. Also, unless he does leave all his windows and doors open, the relative humidity in the house is unlikely to be high. (just think how much effort we have to go to to keep our high humidity requiring animals humid... it wouldn't be half as difficult if these problems as you see them actually were that bad)
> 
> Yes, exhaled air is 100% saturated and, when that exhaled air meets cooler air and therefore cools, it can no longer hold as much water and the water condenses out etc etc but as you know, mammals have a much higher breathing rate and lung capacity than a reptile and desert reptile also have a number of mechanisms to reduce water loss through exhaled air. Therefore the amount of water vapour produced by a sleeping beardy will be negligable (and certainly nothing like a human in a car) and no where near enough to make the viv 'wet'. In fact, it would seem to me that a minute or so of the CHE being on in a morning would completely dry out any residual humidity from overnight. Add to that the fact that the desert morning is a little 'damp' anyway (many animals rely on the morning desert dew for moisture and others go as so far as to sit out in it and allow it to condense on them to drink it) and I really feel that the issues you have with the fact the viv is glass are over exagerated and no real issue at all.
> 
> As you can see this is a lot to explain, and as I already know from experience Andy, as learned as you are, you have trouble grasping some
> facts, and if you don't get it, what chance has the average hobbiest got?
> 
> No trouble at all grasping _facts, _but I'm afraid that they actually have to be good, solid facts rather than interpretations of the severity of certain issues for me to grasp them.....
> 
> Suffice to say it is easier to say "don't use glass vivs for diurnal desert lizards".
> 
> or maybe - be careful if you are to use glass vivs for diurnal desert lizards as there are a few things to look out for. It is easier to solve these issues by using a wooden viv, but certainly not impossible to do with a well designed glass viv.....
> 
> Oh, and one more point, "google care sheets"? you know my girlfriend, you know where she works, and you know I have access to hers, and the scientists she works with vast wealth of Knowledge!!! Why do I have to google when I know the best herp keepers in the world??? Are you mad??
> 
> See starting statement!
> 
> On that note though, I have more than a little respect for Lotte and her collegues and the truely outstanding and exceptional work they do. They spend millions of pounds making absolutely PERFECT replications of natural environments in order to save species from extinction. I know we may differ here, but I think there is a distinction between creating perfect natural habitats and producing suitable enviroments that meet the animals requirements. Thats controversial in its own right, and I for one would love to produce a perfect slice of Australian desert in my living room, but the reality of modern reptile pet keeping is a little different. The OP's viv may not win any prizes for looking the most like the intended occupants native home range, but I think it meets the needs of the beardy much better than many others I've seen...
> 
> Jay





jabba1967 said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Who the hell are you? 3 poster. Had to laugh at this!
> 
> :lol2:
> 
> I've said all there is to say on this thread, It's like I'm dealing with school kids. Am I the only adult on this forum?
> 
> As it was the way you worded your first post that hooked me in (and why I didn't realise it was you in the first place) I think pot and kettle spring to mind:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> The biggest and saddest irony of this thread is that it was me who said "I" didn't want to ruin this thread for Spatte88 by getting into a forum war, here is an extract of the post;
> 
> 
> 
> I think the o/p has built this viv for himself, and not his beardie, that is all I am saying, he has let the build take control and precedent over his beardies needs.
> 
> I don't want to mess up this blokes thread with a forum war, so understand that this is for the o/p, and the o/p only, so let him reply to me if he wishes.
> 
> So Spatte88, I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, It's just some friendly and light harted advice, I'm just trying to point out that the build has got out of control, and this is my opionion, you can take it or leave it.
> 
> It is a nice work of art, but maybe a penguin might be more at home in it :whistling2:
> 
> 
> And yet all of Spatte88's so called friends didn't have the courtesy to at least p.m me if they wanted to defend her/his honour. instead they stuck their noses in with no other intention but to start a fight, and ruin the o/p's thread, idiots.
> 
> You can't start a fight on a public forum and then throw your toys out when people disagree with you. You certainly can't dictate whether they are able to reply to you and especially not in what manner they are allowed to.....! (p.s. not Spatte's friend at all, don't know him from Adam)
> 
> Well done, take a bow :notworthy: children, and grow up. ..and yer mom
> 
> Jay


 
Speak soon

Andy
:2thumb:


----------



## bothrops

Saedcantas said:


> Posters have consistently pointed out their concerns with the size and functionality of this design throughout the topic.
> 
> The OP, credit given has indeed stated that she doesn't intend to keep the animal in there once it is adult, the viv may be adapted or sold and replaced;
> 
> So we'll be seeing the advert for it or build #2 in about three months time max hopefully!
> 
> We also have the issue about size, the actual viv is an initial floor space of just over 43" by 17".
> 
> 
> Then we have the issue of UV. The OP is misinformed about the output and useful distance of the tube they are using.
> 
> 
> The OP seems to have used information about the Ferplast 10% uvb tube, that they "concluded" during this topic, complete with some handy misinformation from other members;
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/351285-uv-lamps-penetration-distances.html
> 
> This particular quote;
> 
> 
> A basking spot 30cm from a Ferplast 10% UVB tube even under a reflector is simply not enough for a high UVB demand species like the bearded dragon.
> Get a UVB meter and see for yourself.
> 
> Anyway.
> The OP doesn't intend to use it for an adult beardie as they've realised it just isn't suitable.
> Plenty of readers saw the same thing.
> Some people just saw an amazing piece of art and nothing beyond that.
> The viv is too small, not designed as appropriately for a beardie of any size as it could have been and is for it's intended purpose, an epic waste of time with a poor level of uv exposure.
> 
> I don't think anyone owes anyone an apology, I think we need to remember the living animal that this viv was for and stop jumping to the defence of the OP when they have clearly misrepresented the size of the viv and stated things about the UV they are providing that are incorrect. (whether by accident or confusion etc is irrelevant).
> 
> Cheers!
> Lotte***


 
I'll not argue on the UV - learned my lesson from last time!: victory: Though if we look at actual UV levels in the beardies wild enviroment there are probably about three vivs in the entire country that come close to even approaching those sorts of levels (not saying thats a good thing, nor that it excuses this case..but still)


Just in case I haven't made it clear, I feel the apology is needed ONLY for the shouting and swearing. I have no issue about any of the comments about the viv, just the way they were initially made.

If nothing else, this thread (as in the previous thread on UV) many other readers will have learnt something and can alter their ideas/designs and inspirations to accomodate/eliminate the flaws in this one. Glad I contributed to the learning process (including my own)

Cheers

Andy


----------



## spatte88

Saedcantas said:


> Posters have consistently pointed out their concerns with the size and functionality of this design throughout the topic.
> 
> 
> The OP, credit given has indeed stated that she doesn't intend to keep the animal in there once it is adult, the viv may be adapted or sold and replaced;
> 
> 
> So we'll be seeing the advert for it or build #2 in about three months time max hopefully!
> 
> We also have the issue about size, the actual viv is an initial floor space of just over 43" by 17".
> 
> 
> Then we have the issue of UV. The OP is misinformed about the output and useful distance of the tube they are using.
> 
> The OP seems to have used information about the Ferplast 10% uvb tube, that they "concluded" during this topic, complete with some handy misinformation from other members;
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/351285-uv-lamps-penetration-distances.html
> 
> A basking spot 30cm from a Ferplast 10% UVB tube even under a reflector is simply not enough for a high UVB demand species like the bearded dragon.
> Get a UVB meter and see for yourself.
> 
> Anyway.
> The OP doesn't intend to use it for an adult beardie as they've realised it just isn't suitable.
> Plenty of readers saw the same thing.
> Some people just saw an amazing piece of art and nothing beyond that.
> The viv is too small, not designed as appropriately for a beardie of any size as it could have been and is for it's intended purpose, an epic waste of time with a poor level of uv exposure.
> 
> I don't think anyone owes anyone an apology, I think we need to remember the living animal that this viv was for and stop jumping to the defence of the OP when they have clearly misrepresented the size of the viv and stated things about the UV they are providing that are incorrect. (whether by accident or confusion etc is irrelevant).
> 
> Cheers!
> Lotte***


Hi,

thanks for the reply, we read many threads both here and elsewhere reference the UV distances ect and thought that within a range of 30cm there would be plenty of UV for our beardie from reading your post this would appear to be wrong? if we have got it wrong then i have to admit we are absolutely gutted as the last thing we would want is for our beardie to come to harm. When we build our stack this is something we definitely want to rectify and so could you please give us some more information on UV lighting? could you describe to us exactly what we need i.e the recommended tube percentage, manufacturers (if any are particularly good) and in your opinion the recommended distances from the tubes? this will not only help me but others who may think that being within a 30cm range of the bulbs is ok??

just out of interest is there a reason you didn't post on our original thread asking about UV bulbs and distances, as you say we were misinformed??

we are both more than open to advice and willing to take on board what people have to say as there is always someone with a better knowledge out there and we are keen to learn. however i would like to say that could we not turn this thread into an argument please everyone? everyone is entitled to an opinion, its just how you express it that counts!! : victory:


----------



## smart1

hows that grout holding up, them beardy claws get really sharp,tbh it looks to good to have put anything in the tank, any pics of it now?: victory:


----------



## teiryklav

best best best best best best best best best viv i ever seen!! :2thumb: :no1:

im in a neutral position and i dont know much about beardie, but i think the tank is a bit too small.. i think when the beardie got bigger you'll need to change him to a bigger enclosure and make him that bigger ice caves (cool!! :lol2

yea, a bit low on floorspace (even according to the o/p the beardie doesnt like floor space but it still needs enough floorspace)

ok done. i dont know uv lights lol..

outside of it it's a big piece of art! a masterpiece :no1:
im on the thingking of making some more frb but with inadequate resources i think i will have to save up :lol2:
and also i think beardie in ice caves are a bit weird (althoug they dont know about it:lol2: ) .. good looking anyway :flrt:


----------



## Tehanu

spatte88 said:


> Hi,
> 
> thanks for the reply, we read many threads both here and elsewhere reference the UV distances ect and thought that within a range of 30cm there would be plenty of UV for our beardie from reading your post this would appear to be wrong? if we have got it wrong then i have to admit we are absolutely gutted as the last thing we would want is for our beardie to come to harm. When we build our stack this is something we definitely want to rectify and so could you please give us some more information on UV lighting? could you describe to us exactly what we need i.e the recommended tube percentage, manufacturers (if any are particularly good) and in your opinion the recommended distances from the tubes? this will not only help me but others who may think that being within a 30cm range of the bulbs is ok??
> 
> just out of interest is there a reason you didn't post on our original thread asking about UV bulbs and distances, as you say we were misinformed??
> 
> we are both more than open to advice and willing to take on board what people have to say as there is always someone with a better knowledge out there and we are keen to learn. however i would like to say that could we not turn this thread into an argument please everyone? everyone is entitled to an opinion, its just how you express it that counts!! : victory:


Hiya,
The sole reason that I didn't reply to your UV penetration range topic, was that I never saw it until I was looking through your topics and deciding to reply to this one. I would certainly have commented if I'd seen it (my OH did make a contribution, but it was some dubious info from others that I think accidently got taken on board).

The first point is that, whether the tube is an exo terra reptiglo, ferplast or any other brand, the level of UVB exposure (measured as uW/cm2) decreases moving away from the tube surface (which you seemed to know then not know :S ).
Fluorescent tubes are relatively low level UVB producing even in the case of something like the Arcadia 12% tube (this is as compared to Mercury vapour or metal halide bulbs such as MegaRays). 

None of the fluorescent tubes on the market produce sufficient UVB (even with a reflector) to be used for a bearded dragon that can only get to within 12" of the tube at the _closest! _This species has skin that blocks the majority of UVB rays that fall on it, it is adapted for high UVB exposure in the wild (550-600uW/cm2) so the meagre levels you're going to be getting at the 12" spot (let alone the rest of the enclosure) just won't do for a growing beardie.
The reason I am perhaps coming on strong is that in my opinion, your animal is at risk of MBD in this setup, it is not functional and the UVB exposure is just massively underdone.

You can get an idea of the kind of levels emitted by some of these tubes on this site;
UV Lighting for Reptiles: UVB Fluorescent Tubes Test Results

I would guess that your 10% tube is giving perhaps 40-50uW/cm2 at the 12" basking site, less everywhere else, you want to aim for at least 150uW/cm2 and a high point of 200uW/cm2 if possible.

The main thing that upsets me is how for 20 pages almost everyone was so busy loving the work of art you have produced and scowling at anyone with just concerns, that offering you help and advice re: the actual husbandry of your beardie was all but missed out!


----------



## Snake-Assault

That's epic. :notworthy:


----------



## stern69

Saedcantas said:


> Hiya,
> The sole reason that I didn't reply to your UV penetration range topic, was that I never saw it until I was looking through your topics and deciding to reply to this one. I would certainly have commented if I'd seen it (my OH did make a contribution, but it was some dubious info from others that I think accidently got taken on board).
> 
> The first point is that, whether the tube is an exo terra reptiglo, ferplast or any other brand, the level of UVB exposure (measured as uW/cm2) decreases moving away from the tube surface (which you seemed to know then not know :S ).
> Fluorescent tubes are relatively low level UVB producing even in the case of something like the Arcadia 12% tube (this is as compared to Mercury vapour or metal halide bulbs such as MegaRays).
> 
> None of the fluorescent tubes on the market produce sufficient UVB (even with a reflector) to be used for a bearded dragon that can only get to within 12" of the tube at the _closest! _This species has skin that blocks the majority of UVB rays that fall on it, it is adapted for high UVB exposure in the wild (550-600uW/cm2) so the meagre levels you're going to be getting at the 12" spot (let alone the rest of the enclosure) just won't do for a growing beardie.
> The reason I am perhaps coming on strong is that in my opinion, your animal is at risk of MBD in this setup, it is not functional and the UVB exposure is just massively underdone.
> 
> You can get an idea of the kind of levels emitted by some of these tubes on this site;
> UV Lighting for Reptiles: UVB Fluorescent Tubes Test Results
> 
> I would guess that your 10% tube is giving perhaps 40-50uW/cm2 at the 12" basking site, less everywhere else, you want to aim for at least 150uW/cm2 and a high point of 200uW/cm2 if possible.
> 
> The main thing that upsets me is how for 20 pages almost everyone was so busy loving the work of art you have produced and scowling at anyone with just concerns, that offering you help and advice re: the actual husbandry of your beardie was all but missed out!


I'm no expert by any means but are you suggesting that a bearded dragon must be closer than 12" to the UV in order to grow and not get ill?

I have a friend who has kept bearded dragons for many many years and all of his tubes are fixed to the top of 4ft x 2ft x 2 ft vivs. Yes they have assorted logs, rocks etc that they can climb on to get closer but i don't think they are within 12" of the tube yet all of them are fit and healthy.

You seem to know your numbers but perhaps taking a step back and looking at what actually WORKS rather than what SHOULD work might have been an idea before posting any criticism.


----------



## Tehanu

stern69 said:


> I'm no expert by any means but are you suggesting that a bearded dragon must be closer than 12" to the UV in order to grow and not get ill?
> 
> I have a friend who has kept bearded dragons for many many years and all of his tubes are fixed to the top of 4ft x 2ft x 2 ft vivs. Yes they have assorted logs, rocks etc that they can climb on to get closer but i don't think they are within 12" of the tube yet all of them are fit and healthy.
> 
> You seem to know your numbers but perhaps taking a step back and looking at what actually WORKS rather than what SHOULD work might have been an idea before posting any criticism.


Unfortunately your information is anecdotal based on a friends experience, you may or may not have related it correctly.
My opinion is based on 10 years keeping many species of Herps, keeping bearded dragons throughout this time and currently being involved in UVB/D3 and Calcium research.
So I hope you'll excuse me for standing my ground


----------



## Mirf

stern69 said:


> I'm no expert


Lotte is!: victory:


----------



## stern69

Saedcantas said:


> Unfortunately your information is anecdotal based on a friends experience, you may or may not have related it correctly.
> My opinion is based on 10 years keeping many species of Herps, keeping bearded dragons throughout this time and currently being involved in UVB/D3 and Calcium research.
> So I hope you'll excuse me for standing my ground


No of course, stand away! This forum is for discussing afterall and i do like a good debate (Not an argument mind!)
As for the info being anecdotal, it's more first hand eye witness from years or being mates and growing up with him and alot of his dragons.
He's not some world famous keeper or anything, just a guy that has kept alot of beardies for a long time. I know what your saying so far as the closer the better but 12"? Is that not OTT?


----------



## Mirf

stern69 said:


> I know what your saying so far as the closer the better but 12"? Is that not OTT?


 All of mine are within 12 inches.


----------



## stern69

Mirf said:


> All of mine are within 12 inches.


Ok ok Smithers, i'm talking to Mr Burns.


----------



## Mirf

stern69 said:


> Ok ok Smithers, i'm talking to Mr Burns.





stern69 said:


> No of course, stand away! This forum is for discussing afterall and i do like a good debate (Not an argument mind!)
> I know what your saying so far as the closer the better but 12"? Is that not OTT?


Was there really any need for that comment???? As you said youself, this forum is for discussion and not arguments! I was merely sharing my experience as a reptile keeper.:bash:


----------



## stern69

Mirf said:


> Was there really any need for that comment???? As you said youself, this forum is for discussion and not arguments! I was merely sharing my experience as a reptile keeper.:bash:


Well i thought it was funny! :2thumb:


----------



## Tehanu

:lol2: Excellent!

Generally you'll hear beardie keepers advised to setup vivs to allow their animals to be no further from the tube than 12" and up to 8" is suggested (I've been advising people to allow their beardies a maximum of 8" from the tube since I was 16 working in a reptile shop...) 

While these numbers are fairly arbitrary since setups differ and tubes used differ in output. The idea is to work within a range that is likely to suffice.

Did you visit the UVGuide website?;
UV Lighting for Reptiles: UVB Fluorescent Tubes Test Results

View Graph 1. for the UV output of two brand new Reptisun 10% tubes at 12". You're looking at 35-40uW/cm2. Even with a reflector fitted you're looking at 80uW/cm2, that's when it's brand new! what about in 6-12 months time when people think about replacing it? As I've already mentioned, we're talking about a species exposed to as much as 500-600uW/cm2 daily. I can walk outside here in the Channel Isles on a december day and read more than 80uW/cm2 in the carpark!

It's not rocket science, we know fairly well how much these tubes are producing in most vivarium applications, we know what these animals are exposed to in the wild and we know that their skin is quite obviously toughened and adapted to block;
UV Transmission through Reptile Skin Shed

We also know that MBD is worryingly prevalent in the hobby with species such as bearded dragons.
The thing you have to get your head around is that herps in particular are incredibly good at withstanding low level MBD without external symptoms or obvious damage. Herps will almost happily eat, run around and reproduce with poor bone density, existing or previous bone, organ and muscle damage from MBD.

Lets not forget that the reason sufficient UVB exposure is so crucial is for vitamin D3 synthesis, perhaps your friend is providing this significantly through supplementation?


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## Tehanu

stern69 said:


> As for the info being anecdotal, it's more first hand eye witness from years or being mates and growing up with him and alot of his dragons.
> He's not some world famous keeper or anything, just a guy that has kept alot of beardies for a long time. I know what your saying so far as the closer the better but 12"? Is that not OTT?


By the way though! 
A first hand eyewitness account is "anecdotal evidence". In that it is not scientific or rigorous evidence and is merely one persons account of something they saw/believe/heard etc.

12" isn't enough, let alone "OTT".

Oh yes;


stern69 said:


> I work in risk management and as anybody else in the field will tell you, the first thing to do when trying to reduce the level of risk presented by a hazard is to eliminate the hazard altogether.


I thoroughly enjoyed this as it's perfect.
To eliminate the risk of MBD, remove the hazard of distant UVB tubes, simply use your UVB tube at a useful and effective distance, i.e: at a maximum of 12" distance, the basking area should be significantly closer!


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## eddy

not got a clue about keeping beardies, so not commenting on the suitablilty of the viv, but would like to add my two thumbs up for the design, looks mega, alot of hard work has clearly gone into it, very cool


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## t o k a y

this viv is great i dont know why it has been criticised tbh the uv isnt that far coould be closer i know but instead of slatin if say sumfin contructive like a mvb woulb be good for the viv


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## bothrops

t o k a y said:


> this viv is great i dont know why it has been criticised tbh the uv isnt that far coould be closer i know but instead of slatin if say sumfin contructive like a mvb woulb be good for the viv


MVB would almost certainly be too hot for a viv that size. Remember they can't be statted so require a large viv to ensure they can be adjusted to the correct height to maintain basking spot temps.


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## red-eyed tree frog man

*wow*

wow that was a long read i think this should be made into a sticky


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## melndal

that is absolutely amazing!!


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## t o k a y

bothrops said:


> MVB would almost certainly be too hot for a viv that size. Remember they can't be statted so require a large viv to ensure they can be adjusted to the correct height to maintain basking spot temps.


60w ebs dont realy give of heat so i heard


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## bothrops

t o k a y said:


> 60w ebs dont realy give of heat so i heard


 
Could you give me a link to the 'ebs'?

The self ballasted MVB's come in 125W and 160W only as far as I can find and I can only find 60W MBV in the externally ballasted form and that would run the costs into hundreds.

I would love it if someone has a link to a lower wattage internally ballasted MVB or if anyone has any data on temperatures gained by a 125W unstatted IB MVB in a solid topped wooden vivarium? (and so its relavent to this thread - a glass walled viv :blush:!)

Cheers

Andy


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## t o k a y

erm i meant an externally ballasted bulb by ebs Mega-Ray 60w Zoo EB Kit by: Kimbosthats the link anyway

mvbs give of less heat than normall bulbs so you could probs get awaay with a 100w depding on your viv size of course(if not there always fans)


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## bothrops

Looks interesting, although it wouldn't be suitable here as it states an absolute minimum of three feet (more than could fit in here) and the fact it is better at even larger distances.

...I might have a plan for one though, so cheers for the link!

Cheers

Andy


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## spatte88

Hi guys, 

Sorry its been a while since we posted! We have been looking into the whole UVB penetration as we know MBD is serious and are concerned for the welfare of our beardie if uv is as low as Saedcantas says. Thanks for the advice by the way, everything has been taken on board and we have ordered a solarmeter to measure the uvb rays to see how we are doing. Depending on the outcome we are considering a few options mainly ordering arcadia 12% bulbs with reflectors and if the reading is still low we will look into mounting them inside the viv (this would mean the higher basking spots/top of pyramid would be within 4" of the tubes and the main basking area would be within 8"). Will keep you updated as to what we find to ensure no one else has this problem/people are made aware of the lack of penetration that these uvb tubes have!!

Its been mentioned by some people and the website you suggested we look at, that high uvb exposure can cause eye problems. Would this be the case with the readings you suggested we should be getting (at 150-200)? Or is it that this sort of problem only arises if you get exposures above what you mentioned that they get in the wild (550-600)? Also is this sort of exposure what we want at the basking spot or ideally over as much as the viv of possible? quoting the website;

"Two of the current authors keep bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps) with access to a gradient of up to 200-300uW/cm² under mercury vapour lamps. All do bask, at times, right under their lamps in the zone of maximum UVB, but seem to spend most of their time in the regions where UVB levels are between 30 and 150 uW/cm²."

So if there are areas of lower UV then it shouldnt be too much of a problem, if anything they may prefer slightly lower UV exposure?

We have also been told that they dont get this kind of exposure all day and only get a major peak at midday so would it be worth having two tubes with one on all day and the other turned on only at around the midday period to boost the UV at this particular point of the day? On the website it states;

"Some reptiles are described as "sun-worshippers" including uromastyx, bearded dragons, chuckwallas, and many species of tortoise. In the wild, these spend many hours a day exposed to hot sunshine and high UVB levels, in places such as the Mediterranean, Arizona and the Australian outback where peak readings of 350 - 450uW/cm² are commonplace for two or three hours a day, around noon, in the summertime."

So referring back to my previous question, do they need a peak which reduces later into the day to a lower exposure?

Sorry to pick your brains Saedcantas but we want to get this right!


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## spatte88

smart1 said:


> hows that grout holding up, them beardy claws get really sharp,tbh it looks to good to have put anything in the tank, any pics of it now?: victory:


Unfortunately she has only been in it a few days as the varnish seemed to be too good and she couldn't get her nails into it!! We modified it by varnishing on some sand and she seems to grip to it fine now! I'm pretty sure its still hardy and should last! I will update you as to how it lasts not too far in the future!!


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## spatte88

red-eyed tree frog man said:


> wow that was a long read i think this should be made into a sticky



That would be cool!!! not sure how we would go about it though?? the idea of this thread was not just about showing people what we have done but also to show what can be achieved with different techniques, allowing people to learn from our mistakes and especially the to provide what is hopefully as accurate information as possible (especially in light of the whole UVB issue - however it turns out)!


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## cordylidae

bothrops said:


> Looks interesting, although it wouldn't be suitable here as it states an absolute minimum of three feet (more than could fit in here) and the fact it is better at even larger distances.
> 
> ...I might have a plan for one though, so cheers for the link!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy


thats thezoo 1 not the normal the zzo has a min distance of 3feet but the others are 1 foot so could probably fit in it


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## spatte88

Still waiting on the solarmeter guys though will update once it is here and i have readings! plus waiting on responses from lottie but guess she has been busy!!! hopefully we will hear soon!


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## fishboy

christ. Will you do me a helms deep? :lol2:


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## TerrorTortoise

You won't ever have to sell that viv because when the beardie grows out of it you get a rankins :lol2: it would be sooooooooooo much of a waste of a beautiful viv if you sold it. I salut you and good luck :2thumb: oh and it is very funny reading these hash post made by you all :lol2: it is a full on forum war (I want to join in) :war: :lol2:


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## elkextc

Wow i think thats brilliant! Really inventive idea.
So what will you do with it now? You going to paint over it?
How do you get the lines so neat? Its really amazing =) Well done.


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## Chapster5

elkextc said:


> Wow i think thats brilliant! Really inventive idea.
> So what will you do with it now? You going to paint over it?
> How do you get the lines so neat? Its really amazing =) Well done.


Clean lines are done with a tool that has a peice of thin heated wire which slices throught the polystyrene like butter, but also leaves a smooth finish  You can buy a set of them for about £65 you get 3 tools.

Oh and also AMAZING viv, when you going to do me one? :lol2:


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## biomass

Wow, that is a seriously impressive vivarium, well done you and a great thread to follow the progress of the build.
Hope the beardie appreciates all the effort :lol2: I am sure it loves it!


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## joeyboy

Breath-taking, really is, you have skill there! I bet plenty of people would pay top sterling(dollar GTFO!) for work like that. Also if you do feel there's not enough room when the beardy is mature you could always use it for leos, a rankins, a group of steno's or some other of the smaller desert geckos.


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## Ron Magpie

It's completely mad- but I love it! :notworthy:


I do have one question though- do you not find that the lizards scratch the poly to bits?


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## reptilestar101

Wow looks great :2thumb:


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## spatte88

Hi Everyone! We have finally received our Solarmeter and have to admit that Saedcantas’ prediction of our UV levels in the viv was almost completely right. After reading the website link she sent us reference how much exposure to UV bearded dragons should have and comparing it to her notes we are actually way under! As many people know MBD is a pretty big problem and so I think it is important that we post our readings (before and after) and how we adapted it to give better readings. This should help people like us realise exactly how ineffective the ranges are on these UV tubes especially for those that don’t own a Solarmeter!

More on that once we have modified the viv! Though while on the subject of UV tubes and height restrictions we have been thinking about our next project of building the stack we mentioned on a previous post, and dimensions for this in relation to UV distances. When you looking through all the threads and what we have found to be recommended as the standard size for an adult beardies viv is 4x2x2 however….. if the maximum distance you want from the UV is 12” then why does the viv need to be 2 foot high? Correct me if im wrong but 2 foot is 24”? therefore the UV tube would have to be halfway down to be within an effective range meaning the top half of the viv would be completely wasted space? The only other use for this part of the viv as far as we can see would be space to place vents and heat lamps (though 12” for this purpose seems slightly excessive!). 








here is a schematic of basically how a 2 foot would have to be set up to get 12 inches of penetration from the tube. the blue is the UV, white "wasted" space and the tube is along the line between the two colours.

Would it not be adequate enough to say have a vivarium that is say 4 foot long by 2 foot wide 18 inches high? As this would still allow 6 inches above the tube to have vents fitted and heat lamps! 








here is a schematic of basically how a 1.5 foot (18") would be set up to get 12inches of penetration from the tube. the blue is the UV, white "wasted" space and the tube is along the line between the two colours. As you can see there is much less wasted space but still plenty of room for the beardies?

Also if the UV tube is fitted on the back of the vivarium and it is 2 foot deep then the UV will only penetrate 12inches forward (half the depth) of the viv, requiring an additional UV near to the front of the viv to penetrate into the front half effectively. However again if this was 24” high then the range of the front tube would not be effective to the floor. If it were 18” high then we could drop the tube down behind the lip around the front edge of the viv in order to get as close to 12” away without the tube showing- in a 2 foot this would be impossible!!! (See diagram)








Sorry this isn't a very good drawing though didn't have time to draw on computer. This diagram is a side view of a recommended 2 foot deep, 2 foot high viv. I hope this helps to demonstrate our understanding of UV penetration and how little (less than a quarter!) of the viv would be within a 12" penetration range of the UV tube and how it will not reach the front of the viv meaning an additional bulb will be required at the front on the roof.

What does everyone think? are we barking up the wrong tree here or is there another reason why the viv should be 2 foot high??


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## Meko

got to say it looks amazing, not had chance to read it all but a few points that have been mentioned:

glass tank / humidity - pretty sure Spatte said they had issues with it holding heat because it had a mesh top. As beardies don't need a lot of humidity and a large water source then my basic maths tells me that - small water source + mesh top = no humidity

Ice cave - i doubt a beardie would know what an ice cave is.

one thing that's confusing me though (only a minor asthetics one)... you've got a pyramid and an ice cave. Pyramids = egypt = hot. Ice caves = cold places; you've got the basking spot at what, asthetically, would be the cold end and the cold end in the 'hot' end.


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## jsharpie

we think its amazing my son asks is this a scene from alien verses preditor we are eager to see the finished result love it we have a beardie called freddie who is 16inch long by 4 inch wide who would love it !!! lol keep up the gud work really want to see the finished product go go go , reptiles bring it on lno pepples no barny and no dino bu tlots of charecter! tee hee


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## Pendragon

Hey,

You're getting there, I told you all this when you first asked about the glass viv months ago. The biggest thing you'll learn from all this is that most people on here don't have a clue, and filtering out the crap advice from the good is an aquired skill.

Good luck

Jay


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## Tehanu

Hiya Steph,

I'm really sorry it took quite so long to reply! Illness and busytimes at work meant my RFUK visits have been short and sweet.

The first point to clear up is about UV and eye damage, this was a problem associated with the earlier versions of the compact UV's and one or two of the T8 tubes available. There are still some poorer brands available on the market whose compacts are still potentially dangerous to use. _However_ the Reptisun and Arcadia tubes and compacts now on the market are safe to use 

The issue was down to the balance of wavelengths and type of UV emitted by the compact (and some of the T8 tubes) being inherantly unnatural and therefore damaging. There are two factors to consider, actual UV levels emitted and UVIndex at any given distance, these bulbs were running at UVI's as much as double what is tolerable to our herps and infact higher than could be found anywhere on the surface of the Earth!!! Put these nasty pieces of equipment into a small box with a captive herp and of course you'll have eye problems 
This shouldn't be a problem with the Reptisun or Arcadia T8 tubes and compact bulbs available now.

Moving onto the question of creating a peak of UV levels and variable levels over the course of the day.
Because we're talking about a limited environment within a vivarium and because you're never going to expose your beardie to 600uW/cm2 in captivity, the concept would be instead to provide a moderate/average level all day long working towards providing your beardie with perhaps the same "amount" of uW/cm2 over the course of each day as he might get from 600 for 2 hours, 200 for 4 hours etc etc...
If you check out HadesDragons viv build topic though as he really explored the ideas of variable UVB and temperature levels throughout the day, interesting ideas and certainly food for thought!


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## Marcia

I've only just seen this thread but that is amazing :2thumb:


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## bothrops

jabba1967 said:


> Hey,
> 
> You're getting there, I told you all this when you first asked about the glass viv months ago. The biggest thing you'll learn from all this is that most people on here don't have a clue, and filtering out the crap advice from the good is an aquired skill.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Jay


Oi! Cheap shot........:Na_Na_Na_Na:



Saedcantas said:


> Hiya Steph,
> 
> I'm really sorry it took quite so long to reply! Illness and busytimes at work meant my RFUK visits have been short and sweet.
> 
> The first point to clear up is about UV and eye damage, this was a problem associated with the earlier versions of the compact UV's and one or two of the T8 tubes available. There are still some poorer brands available on the market whose compacts are still potentially dangerous to use. _However_ the Reptisun and Arcadia tubes and compacts now on the market are safe to use
> 
> The issue was down to the balance of wavelengths and type of UV emitted by the compact (and some of the T8 tubes) being inherantly unnatural and therefore damaging. There are two factors to consider, actual UV levels emitted and UVIndex at any given distance, these bulbs were running at UVI's as much as double what is tolerable to our herps and infact higher than could be found anywhere on the surface of the Earth!!! Put these nasty pieces of equipment into a small box with a captive herp and of course you'll have eye problems
> This shouldn't be a problem with the Reptisun or Arcadia T8 tubes and compact bulbs available now.
> 
> Moving onto the question of creating a peak of UV levels and variable levels over the course of the day.
> Because we're talking about a limited environment within a vivarium and because you're never going to expose your beardie to 600uW/cm2 in captivity, *the concept would be instead to provide a moderate/average level all day long working towards providing your beardie with perhaps the same "amount" of uW/cm2 over the course of each day as he might get from 600 for 2 hours, 200 for 4 hours etc etc...*
> If you check out HadesDragons viv build topic though as he really explored the ideas of variable UVB and temperature levels throughout the day, interesting ideas and certainly food for thought!


 
Fascinating stuff! Just goes to show, *everybody* can learn from this forum!

I think the comment in bold is hopefully going to get me out of Jay's 'people who don't have a clue' category, as clearly some UV is better than none, and I doubt that even 1% of all captive beardy viv approach anywhere near 600mW/cm2 in terms of UV output.

I think it is an area of research that I might look at getting a little more seriously involved in. Obviously many use the maximum levels that wild beardies are exposed to as the 'benchmark' and then look at if they get that in the wild, whether they need those levels in captivity.

I like the idea that the thousands of captive beardies that will now be tens of generations in captivity do not all have mild MBD or even low bone densities, but it might be a very interesting (if a little expensive, time consuming and practically difficult) exercise to take comparable xrays from a large range of wild, LTC, captive, multi generation captive animals that have been kept in a range of vivaria with a range of UV tubes at a large range of distances and see the facts.

As the UV is all about vit D3 synthesis and calcium processing etc, then it would be good to look at the quanta of wavelengths required per unit production of D3, and add that to the data from the above paragraph.

I also am not aware how long wild beardies spend being exposed to 600mW/cm2, nor if they preferentially seek out this level. Neither do I know if they NEED exposure to those levels or whether they _tolerate_ those sorts of levels and their actual _requirement_ is much much less. 

It would be relatively simple maths to look at how 'total exposure' varies between 40mW/cm2 for twelve hours vs a range of strengths for shorter periods, but of course that would only give us an idea of the disparities between vivs and wild availibility but will tell us nothing about whether 40 for 12 is _sufficient_ for a captive beardy to meet its daily D3 production levels.



It is certainly something that needs a lot more research!

So, although it is clear that all of us know less than we should, and some of us like to think we know more than we do, in reality none of us know it all....

...research, such as that that Lotte is involved in, and such that I might need to lean towards next time the opportunity presents itself, is clearly and obviously what is needed here.

Thank you Spatte, for the opportunity to explore the subject in depth and allow us all to learn things. Thank you to Lotte for her expert input and thanks to Jay for the lively debate that made all of us think a little more!:2thumb:

...to risk appearing twelve ............ RFUK FTW!

Cheers

Andy


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## Mirf

Okay I am now totally lost.....I failed my physics 'O' level :surrender::help:

I need to put what in a 4' viv?????


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## Tehanu

Part 2


I'm really glad to hear though that you've received your Solarmeter and that it's come up with the goods for you! Just having this little bit of kit in your hands and being able to really see the truth about your setup, no guesswork, i just incredible! Everyone ought to have one or you really are flying blind...

I hope you don't mind me asking but I would love to see a quick UVB exposure level "map" of the viv as it is now, I really do think it could help send the message home to those who just won't believe how shoddy and lacking their setups can be. I would be very interested to know what the highest reading you were able to get from a point the beardie can reach was. 
My biggest issue is that even if people (not you Spatte, you've seen the light!  ) don't have a Solarmeter, the UV Guide website at the very least gives you a "guess guide". There are detailed UVB level charts for various tubes at various distances on that website, it should be enough even without a Solarmeter to make anyone sure that 12+ just isn't enough 

Viv sizes; I would certainly agree with the conclusion you've reached, that the average person using only a T8 tube to provide their beardie with UVB should be recommended an 18" high viv and no more. a 2' tall viv is sat right in the grey area, too complex for the average newbie to know how to adequately supply UVB using a T8 tube and too short for anyone inexperienced to try using an MVB.
To clear up the argument about MVBs and could they be used in a viv like this??? A 60-100W externally ballasted Megaray could indeed be used in a viv like this. Experience and a Solarmeter are however key to that, which is why you won't see me saying that to newbies in the Lizard section


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## HadesDragons

What a great viv!


The points you've raised about UV are interesting - like Lotte I'd recommend 18" high as a maximum for a conventional lighting setup, and even then you should ideally be using a reflector.

Tests (see UV Guide UK - Ultraviolet Light for Reptiles - UVB reptile lighting on test) suggest that a reflector increases UV intensity by around 80% or so - that means that if it's desirable to let a beardie get within 6" of a UV tube under normal circumstances, the distance would increase to around 10-12" with a reflector. That's the sort of distance you'd be looking at from an overhead tube to the top of the basking rock in an 18" high cage.

Using anything taller than 18" can pose problems - even with a reflector you'd have to be looking to either mount the tube on the backwall (not my personal preference), or to build a tall, elaborate climbing area. Beardies can often scramble up things, but struggle to get back down - personally I wouldn't trust mine (especially adults) to go climbing 12-18" above the floor of the cage...


This is the main thread about the cage I built which allows varying temperature and UV levels throughout the day - the bulb I'm using also gives UV levels much closer to those found in the wild, so you might be interested in reading it if you've not already:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habitat/169742-fake-rock-enclosure-image-heavy.html



Related to this, I did hear a suggestion a couple of weeks ago that "gaping" behaviour in beardies could actually be to do with UV regulation - the "conventional" view of it was that the beardie has hit the desired temperature but "is too lazy / dumb / comfortable etc to move". To be honest it's not something I'd ever given much though to. They're certainly not the sharpest knives in the drawer, but thinking about it from an evolutionary point of view, cooling based on evaporation of water from the mouth doesn't seem like the best strategy for an animal which may never actually encounter standing water in it's life (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/177301-your-bearded-dragon-its-habitat.html). "Gaping" or "panting" does cause the beardie to lose water - surely evolution would favour the "less lazy" individuals which will move to regulate temperature (and thus conserve water). 

The theory that I came across recently is that they gape when they've got to the correct temperature, but still require more UV exposure - they sit in the brightest (and probably pretty much hottest) point to absorb more UV. The trade-off is that they lose water whilst doing it. In the wild they may only do this rarely - UV levels are so much higher that they'll probably get a decent dose whilst basking. In captivity with the weaker UV available, they may need to "top up" even once they've hit a desired body temperature, which leads them to sit in the brightest, hottest place (probably the best source of UV in the wild, so instinctively the best place if they need more UV), and to begin regulating their temperature by gaping rather than simply moving somewhere cooler. It could be another case of unnatural captive conditions "confusing" their instincts. 

Thinking about it, I've hardly ever noticed gaping behaviours in the high-UV cage - obviously I've not measured time spent gaping or anything like that so it's very much anecdotal, and to date only 5 different beardies have spent time in that cage, but as an idea it does seem to make a bit of sense...?


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## NINJATURTLETOM

Thats mental!! And toxic that baby with the boobs is quality!!


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## callum gohrisch

very cool:2thumb:


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## snake rescuer

how is she getting on in there??


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## Ashtonsmum

_CBA to make comments on what "isnt" right with the set-up and am not getting involved in the dispute at all, seems abit childish tbh...._

_That build loooks Amazing!!!! Well done! How long did it take you to complete?_

_Sarah_


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## spatte88

elkextc said:


> Wow i think thats brilliant! Really inventive idea.
> So what will you do with it now? You going to paint over it?
> How do you get the lines so neat? Its really amazing =) Well done.


Thought i had best write a few replies seen as people have been kind enough to respond!!! the lines were kept nice and neat by using 2 pieces of wood with the poly sandwiched in between!


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## spatte88

Ron Magpie said:


> It's completely mad- but I love it! :notworthy:
> 
> 
> I do have one question though- do you not find that the lizards scratch the poly to bits?


nope not at all! the varnish seems to be fairly resistant to their claws which is good!!


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## spatte88

jsharpie said:


> we think its amazing my son asks is this a scene from alien verses preditor we are eager to see the finished result love it we have a beardie called freddie who is 16inch long by 4 inch wide who would love it !!! lol keep up the gud work really want to see the finished product go go go , reptiles bring it on lno pepples no barny and no dino bu tlots of charecter! tee hee


yes it is a scene from alien Vs. Predator! try page 17 for the finished product pics!


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## spatte88

Saedcantas said:


> Part 2
> 
> 
> I'm really glad to hear though that you've received your Solarmeter and that it's come up with the goods for you! Just having this little bit of kit in your hands and being able to really see the truth about your setup, no guesswork, i just incredible! Everyone ought to have one or you really are flying blind...
> 
> I hope you don't mind me asking but I would love to see a quick UVB exposure level "map" of the viv as it is now, I really do think it could help send the message home to those who just won't believe how shoddy and lacking their setups can be. I would be very interested to know what the highest reading you were able to get from a point the beardie can reach was.
> My biggest issue is that even if people (not you Spatte, you've seen the light!  ) don't have a Solarmeter, the UV Guide website at the very least gives you a "guess guide". There are detailed UVB level charts for various tubes at various distances on that website, it should be enough even without a Solarmeter to make anyone sure that 12+ just isn't enough
> 
> Viv sizes; I would certainly agree with the conclusion you've reached, that the average person using only a T8 tube to provide their beardie with UVB should be recommended an 18" high viv and no more. a 2' tall viv is sat right in the grey area, too complex for the average newbie to know how to adequately supply UVB using a T8 tube and too short for anyone inexperienced to try using an MVB.
> To clear up the argument about MVBs and could they be used in a viv like this??? A 60-100W externally ballasted Megaray could indeed be used in a viv like this. Experience and a Solarmeter are however key to that, which is why you won't see me saying that to newbies in the Lizard section


Hey!

Thanks for the reply! I felt like a bit of a nag asking you to reply lol. Sorry to hear you were ill hopefully you feel a bit better now!!! As for being busy - i think that makes two of us- feel like i have been run off my feet constantly lol! 

Glad to hear the eye problems have been cleared up by some advances in technology! We are going with the arcadia 12% tubes and reflectors so no problems for us hopefully!!! 

The readings now we have the tubes in position inside the viv are dramatically different! i will add a pic of a drawing i have done to show the considerable differences in UV levels we are getting! sorry they are only hand drawings so you will have to forgive the fact that its not perfect! (Disclaimer; these are just our own readings so any companies wishing to sue.... erm- please dont! lol) 

The first picture shows the readings taken from two 10% Ferplast tubes with a reflector when attached to the top of the viv. The readings were taken through the roof which was mesh.








This second picture shows the readings we are getting now with two 12% arcadia tubes mounted inside the viv on the roof with reflectors. red lines give approximate distances from the tubes to give an idea of penetration levels!









These readings aren't great as both sets of tubes are slightly different due to the amount of burn time and the Arcadias haven't as yet had the 100 hours to burn in though as you can see there is a huge difference in the readings we got!! i think the new readings are much more suitable thanks to information and references provided by saedcantas! hopefully in our new vivs that we are planning to build will be even better in light of all the new information we have been receiving! we are hoping to get everything perfect in the new build and so will apologize to people now if we ask lots of questions! :lol2: i personally think that this is such an important subject and am glad we bought the solarmeter -it has been worth every penny and i would highly recommend to anyone to get one! very useful bit of kit! The health and well-being of our beardie is paramount to us and we dread to think what would have happened to her had we not been informed at such an early stage!!

Have checked out HadesDragons thread as you suggested and as you said definitely food for thought! Very interesting stuff!! day-length/seasonality ect is something i think should definitely be a consideration! however because i want to get my beardie into the new viv asap i think im going to stick with the arcadias for now but who knows in the future i may (most probably will) end up researching into MVB's ect. i will post pics ect of the new vivs when i eventually start - a bit like i did with this one though hopefully there will be no major flaws this time!!

Had to laugh when you said


Saedcantas said:


> My biggest issue is that even if people (not you Spatte, you've seen the light!  ) don't have a Solarmeter, the UV Guide website at the very least gives you a "guess guide".


 hee hee seen the light! UV. Light. Geddit? :lol2: oh dear i think i need to seriously get a life!!!


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## oxxxdanniexxxo

awsome build n 1 very lucky beardie :no1:


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## Becky Wheeler

Hiya mate,

First off let me just thank you mate for adding a link to my vivarium background thread :notworthy:

And also mate that viv background is :censor: EPIC! You deserve a huge pat on the back and I would like to buy you a pint! :2thumb:

I love AVP! and you've pulled it off mate! but one thing that I think would finish off this great work of yours would be a couple of Aliens and predators! ok ok.....I will stop being silly now :whistling2:

FANTASTIC WORK MATE! you are the master of creativity!


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## martynjones

it looks really good. is the polystyrene you use easy to come by, and is it expensive. i might try and make something in my bearded dragon's viv


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## Becky Wheeler

Hiya mate,

you can buy the poly from ebay or if you have a fish mongers near you then there have a good supply of poly boxes. I get large thick sheets off ebay and it's pretty cheap too.


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## Meko

B&Q do 8x4 sheets for a fiver.


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## spatte88

Also wickes sell it in large sheets at a few different thicknesses which was where we got it from!


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## Ailurus

Not wanting to start any arguments or anything, the design and final product is amazing, i mean its truly a work of art. However i wouldnt have a viv like that personally, but each to their own. I prefer natural vivs. 

However i do congratulate you on an amazing design and it turned out great.


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## lambengland

Awsome build... love the underfloor heating idea... genius 

Jabba.... wth?

lol


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## H3nry

NICE :2thumb:
im actually REALLY jealous!!!!


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## 1 BiG BeArDiE

wow that looks great your beardie will love that, btw where do you get polystyerine in such big blocks?? bearing in mind im from uk! good job


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## Meko

99.8% of us are in the UK mate.

you can try B&Q for polystyrene, they do 8x4 sheets of polystyrene. It costs about £5.50 got an 8x4 25mm thick sheet although they call it Jablite insulation polyboard. Think they do it thinner and also up to about 50mm thickness.
Or you can get the polystyrene from packaging; washing machines, TV's, etc


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## spatte88

hey guys check out MKII of pimp my viv!!! , went a bit more naturalistic this time! comments welcome!!!

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/habitat/443369-pimp-my-vivarium-mkii.html#post5435397


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## Jessdragon

WOW that is an amazing design. How long did that take to make and finish!? :no1:


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## Avpl

Utterly amazing!


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## spatte88

Jessdragon said:


> WOW that is an amazing design. How long did that take to make and finish!? :no1:


Way too long :lol2:


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## Smiffy71

*Custom Viv PvrsA*

All I have to say is when are you going into production for RFUK users?
Really like your work.
cheers
Laurie


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## thething84

thats a true piece or aft. look absolutly amazing. wish i have the time and skill to do something this good.


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## spatte88

We have upgraded the girls from their viv to a new one which we will be adding onto our MKII post (link in sig). the viv is available for sale but im afraid not with the masterpiece! check out the link http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ferplast-explora-110-excellent-condition.html and make me an offer! worst i can say is no! if not sold by next week its going on ebay!


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## abadi

AMAZING :flrt:


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## aaron88

i think is cool mate :no1:


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## stevereader12345

this has defo made me want a wire cutter! the edges are amazing! and the ice part looks too good :gasp:


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## misscroft83

Hi, How did you make all the markings (ice sculpting bit) of your ice cave bit of this build, i really like that effect and would like to do something similar on my fake rock background to add more texture.

The whole thing is amazing, you must be sooooo pleased with it! I am quite new to this and am half way through doing my first fake rock design and am already planning the next one! I will have to post some photos of mine when i am done although its nowhere near this standard! lol! I did notice near the beginning of the thread you did say something about a heated something or other (will have to go back and read that bit in a minute!) which you used to cut the foam, does it cut rounded shapes or just straight lines? Sorry might sound like a stupid question but ive never heard of one before!


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## spatte88

Check out Hotwire Foam Factory which is where I got the equipment from and the knowledge (watch the videos lol). Hope this helps!


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