# Advice needed,my marmoset bit me today,should I be worried?



## kaydee123

Hi all

I had to move my marmoset today into her carry case,as I am traveling back home from my parents.

When I had her today in my hand she bit my finger and picered my skin,made me bleed a little.

Should I be worried and see a doctor?can I catch anything from her?can she catch anything from me?

I think she was breed in the uk.

This is the first time she has bit me.

Thanks all


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Is this for real.
WIND UP MAYBE.


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## kaydee123

Why would I post this as a wind up?

I am curious to know something that I don't know.

I am asking for advice and knowledge and that is all you have to say?


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## PETERAROBERTSON

kaydee123 said:


> Hi all
> 
> I had to move my marmoset today into her carry case,as I am traveling back home from my parents.
> 
> When I had her today in my hand she bit my finger and picered my skin,made me bleed a little.
> 
> Should I be worried and see a doctor?can I catch anything from her?can she catch anything from me?
> 
> I think she was breed in the uk.
> 
> This is the first time she has bit me.
> 
> Thanks all


I wasnt being funny asking.
All marmosets bite.
All marmosets dont like being handled.
Thats why i found it a weird question.
Theyre not pets.
Ive been bitten thousands of times.
Me and the monkeys survived.
But any bite if bad needs cleaned.
Really bad could get infected.
But any bite would do that.
Didnt try to upset you about wind up.
But really thought it was.


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## kaydee123

It's just every time before I have handled her,she has not bitten,at worst nibbled,this time her teeth went through my skin.

So I was curious if they can carry anything that I should be worried about or if I could pass anything onto her.

I have washed the cut and used hand sanitizer gel,only a small cut as only small teeth,but was still concerned non the less.

I did google it and google came up with all sorts,saying monkeys carry all sorts of diseases this and that and all sorts,so I thought I would ask expert advice.


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## kaydee123

I do get cold sores from time to time also,so I am always careful when handling her as I know the simplex virus can kill them,I always wash my hands before and after and always use sanitizer,always.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

They shouldnt be handled.
Stress is bad for them.
Another marmoset to be what they are.
Monkeys.
Best for her.
They are not pets.
It will get worse as its humanised.
Not good.
They usually end up locked up 24..7 as owners dont want bit.


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## kaydee123

She is only handled when I have to move her into her carry case,like now I have been away.

She is normally left alone in her enclosure.

I was just concerned for us both.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

But surely concern for a social animal that needs its own kind.
It needs company to be a monkey.


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## kaydee123

I have been looking and still looking to get her a male partner,not easy to find tho.I live in Cornwall tho my parents live in Leeds and I do visit often.

I am trying.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

So the picture i get is that you visit your parents often and take her with you.
That wont do her any good.
If you get her male then youd be catching and moving both.
This will stress them like mad.
Reading back your other posts i see youve been looking.
Breeders should not let go unless the home has all needed.
Mostly company fot them.
There own kind.
The path your going will leed to problems.
And it will get harder for you as well.
They dont forget being handled for a while.
Takes ages to steady again.
Think you need to think long and hard if you can commit to monkeys.
They are not pets.
You need to fit round them.
Not them round you.
What if she gets pregnant.
Too many cons here and not enough pros.


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## PigeonYouDead

I have to agree all this sounds terrible frankly :/

A friend of mine has 6 pygmy marmosets. They are kept in a large outdoor aviary full of trees and branches to jump all over. They have a large nest box to sleep in full of bedding with heat lamps in, but other than that they are outside year round. They are kept as a male / female group and have always been kept communally. Not one of them is tame or considered a pet, and lovely as they are to look at, they are not friendly at all. They will only go to my friend (a qualified zoologist) if he has food and strangers are normally hidden from.

Under no circumstances should they be kept singly because they are a very social animal, and need to be kept with their own kind. As for taking it with you when you travel, they are not dogs; they should not be transported around with you unless strictly necessary - ie - the vets. Plus, I live in leeds, and to commute from London where I lived took 2 and a half hours, so commuting from Cornwall must take you the better part of a day...

I think it would be worth considering whether a zoo / sanctuary can offer her a more stable and healthy life, because right now it doesn't seem that you are fulfilling all her needs. Not saying you're abusing her intentionally, but by denying her the option to live with her own species and do normal monkey behaviour, you are doing serious psychological damage.

Also, the herpes virus lives dormant in nerve endings, and whilst its not transmitted through blood, I have no idea whether the monkey could contract it through coming into contact with nerve endings.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Off topic but yea pygmys probably good example.
One of our troops at 12.
They go all over me when i go in.
Like all our species.
But bite if i handle.
But i dont glove or towwel.
Really nice when left to be monkeys.
And steady without humaniseation.
Spellings not good.lol


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## Liam Yule

Delete


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## Meerkatarmy

One male frkiend is not enough monkeys live in large social groups with complex social structure. You may not mean to be crualbut you are esp taking her in a box from Cornwall to Leeds which is at least 5 hour drive on a regular basis. A dog or cat is probably better suited to you


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Meerkatarmy said:


> One male frkiend is not enough monkeys live in large social groups with complex social structure. You may not mean to be crualbut you are esp taking her in a box from Cornwall to Leeds which is at least 5 hour drive on a regular basis. A dog or cat is probably better suited to you


The one male friend would be the start of the social group.
they live in family groups.
they fight with others.


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## Meerkatarmy

A monkey that has always been kept alone will need to learn monkey bwhavior. Introduction and building of family units needs to be managed by a experienced professional. Or of course left in the wild


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## PETERAROBERTSON

This is captive bread not wild.
Yes I agree re intro can be a long process.
Which I've done on numerous occasions.
And talked others through the process.
Quite successfully.


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## kodakira

Meerkatarmy said:


> A monkey that has always been kept alone will need to learn monkey bwhavior. Introduction and building of family units needs to be managed by a experienced professional. Or of course left in the wild


 May I ask if you mean only experienced zoo keepers can reintroduce marmosets together ?

Kind Regards

Neil


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## Meerkatarmy

Not necessarily but it sure can't be done by someone as inexperienced as this keeper.

On a ppersonal opinion I have found professional zoologists/conservationests/biologists etc focus on creating and mirroring the experience they would have in the wild. Whereas private keepers focus on adapting the primates to fit captivity


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Meerkatarmy said:


> Not necessarily but it sure can't be done by someone as inexperienced as this keeper.
> 
> On a ppersonal opinion I have found professional zoologists/conservationests/biologists etc focus on creating and mirroring the experience they would have in the wild. Whereas private keepers focus on adapting the primates to fit captivity



In my personal opinion you haven't met many true private keepers.
Or you wouldn't have the above opinion.
And whether zoo or private.
Its still captive.
not the wild.


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## kodakira

Meerkatarmy said:


> Not necessarily but it sure can't be done by someone as inexperienced as this keeper.
> 
> On a ppersonal opinion I have found professional zoologists/conservationests/biologists etc focus on creating and mirroring the experience they would have in the wild. Whereas private keepers focus on adapting the primates to fit captivity


I agree with you regarding this keeper and being inexperienced but your word professional did suggest only zoo keepers etc.

Like Peter I know many keepers that keep just as well, if not better than zoo's etc.
I honestly believe that the likes of Peter, myself and others are making a difference to they way that primates are being kept in the UK. I know many people and primates that Peter has helped change the lives of. I also know that a number of people that he has helped now push the message of proper care. I am hopefully doing my share now too.

Kind Regards

Neil


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## Meerkatarmy

They shouldn't be kept in the UK by private keepers at all and only zoo's where they are unable to live in the wild due to abuse/disability and the zoo is part of a conservation organization


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## PETERAROBERTSON

The only thing that cant seem to be done.
This forum and sales of babies.
In sales now are a pair of 6mnth babies for sale.
from a pet shop.
Authorities are targeting internet sales of pet monkeys.
But this forum allows.
I think they should be helping this situation and not encouraging it.
They are babies at this age.
Breaches ethical code of primates.
Both person who sold to petshop and petshop for selling should be prosecuted.
Maybe they need pointed in the direction of forums.
Rather than just normal classified adds.
Or do they expect *****istrators to help follow ethics.
Bad in my opinion.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Meerkatarmy said:


> They shouldn't be kept in the UK by private keepers at all and only zoo's where they are unable to live in the wild due to abuse/disability and the zoo is part of a conservation organization


This can be said for all exotics.
There in zoos for public view.
And I keep endangered species.
very successful with them.
Have had partners go to zoos.
To help them.
so I beg to differ.
Not all keepers are the same.
You seem to be of a different opinion though.
Your untitled to that..even though its not correct.


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## Meerkatarmy

Which is why I saidthey would have to registered with a conservation organization to ensure they ate being kept for the furtherment of the species not for the publics pleasure. I think monkey world has the ballence near right.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

monkey world is a business.
now you are being rather stupid.


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## bothrops

Meerkatarmy said:


> They shouldn't be kept in the UK by private keepers at all and only zoo's where they are unable to live in the wild due to abuse/disability and the zoo is part of a conservation organization





Meerkatarmy said:


> Which is why I saidthey would have to registered with a conservation organization to ensure they ate being kept for the furtherment of the species not for the publics pleasure. I think monkey world has the ballence near right.
> 
> You are of course entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong.



Please make up your mind.

You state that primates should not be kept by private keepers and then claim that the private keepers of the largest private collection of primates in the country 'has it right'.

If your going to have the opinion you're entitled to, at least stick to it.

: victory:


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## Meerkatarmy

Not really a private collection is it? They are open to the public, employ a wide range of primate specialists and are involved with breeding and conservation of endangered animals, who rescue primates from all over the world and have successfully changed international laws. A technicality means they couldn't register as a charity, which now he's dead means they run at least one charity. Bit different to some dude who keeps a couple of marmosets in the back garden for their own pleasure.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

good tv is there so you know all about MW
Pitty you've not been involved with background polatics.
Enough said


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## Meerkatarmy

You're wrong, I have worked with them as Part of my work at another sanctuary. There is no politics just good guys that work for the best of the primates and the private collectors and dealers who snatch babies far to young and sell individuals, all for profit. Your mums must be so proud.


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## colinm

That is a very biased opinion. There are good keepers and bad keepers like there are good zoos and bad zoos. It happens with all types of animals but is more emotive with primates. 

Your answers are very allied to the animal rights campaigners, who we know are trying to ban the private keeping of primates.


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## Meerkatarmy

Yep you're right I'll be a happy meerkat when there are no primates in private Hands. No good comes of jo blogs being able to buy, breed and keep primates.

You guys say you have done things to improve primates situations, I would be interestedin what those things are?


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## PETERAROBERTSON

yip
as i thought
another cronnin brain washed campaigner who knows seed all of what they are talking about.
alison Cronin is a PRIVATE KEEPER.
You worked and know nught else.
Chimps at highland wildlife.
meant to be at MW.
Why were they not.
I know
my colleagues know
you don't.
At least allisons views have changed.
a happy meerkat mummy...what age are you for god sake.
they belong in the wild as well.no different.


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## colinm

Please explain thAt statement, why shouldn't private individuals be allowed to keep them? This statement is intended for Meerkat.


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## bothrops

I was going to reply, but it is clear that you are unfortunately blinded by this idea that 'zoo's' are good and 'private keeper's are bad'. Until you realise how wrong that statement is then there is no point discussing things further.




For other's that may be reading this.



Primates do NOT make good pets. They are highly complex animals with very specific husbandry needs. They require a highly specialised knowledge, a huge amount of time and a surprising amount of money to look after.


There are a large number of primates in captivity in the UK. Whether you like it or not, 99.99% of these will never be released to the wild. Many are UK captive bred.

Many zoo's have exceptional primate collections. By taking animals in and breeding them in organised stud books we can maintain a healthy, captive population which acts as both a 'living genetic library' and a public entertainment service that brings money into much needed in situ and ex situ conservation projects around the world. These animals also act as ambassadors for their species, bringing a sense of awe and wonder to thousands of children that may well take that seed and grow up to be keepers, researchers, fund raisers and conservationists themselves.

Unfortunately there are a large number of zoo's that are not good. Their captives are not well kept, not well looked after and lack the expertise of other zoos. This fortunately represents the minority of establishments.

There are also a large number of primates in private hands. Some of these individuals that privately own their animals open their collections to the public. Some of them raise money to assist them in keeping their collections or even raising money for conservation projects. Some of them use their animals as ambassadors, again encouraging the next generation to help the global conservation of primates in their own ways. 

There are a number of private keepers that have enclosures, husbandry techniques and knowledge that not only rival, but in many cases massively exceed that of many zoos. Many of these private keepers liaise closely with zoos, offering advice, sharing animals to maintain genetic diversity and contribute massively to the global conservation of primates with their commitment, knowledge and research into captive husbandry techniques including social groupings, reintroductions, diets, enrichment and enclosure design. (Many private keepers act as consultants to zoos having been involved in the zoo world and some being ex-keepers themselves).



Unfortunately, there are a selection of individuals that keep and breed primates for money alone and sell them as pets. Many naive people buy into the 'cute monkey' pet idea and keep individual animals in parrot cages, wearing nappies and feeding them rice, marshmallows and pasta. Often, when they reach sexual maturity, start urinating all over themselves and their owners and start attacking them, they get abandoned, or neglected.


Fortunately there are some very lovely people, whom love primates very much who are willing to take in these abused or neglected animals and look after them for the rest of their lives. This is clearly a very noble thing and it is great that they exist and a real shame they are needed at all.




The worst thing about all of this is that many individuals have a very 'black and white' view of primate keeping. They believe (utterly incorrectly of course) that 'private keeping' ALWAYS means 'pet monkey in a nappy (or worse, a dress and lipstick)' and the 'open to the public' ALWAYS means 'awesome-conservation-minded-for-the-greater-good' primate keeping.

Many of the sanctuaries (not all of course) and their supporters (not all of course) can become blinded by the disproportionate number of poorly kept primates that they see. They tar all private keepers with the same brush and then have to praise all 'public' collections in order to justify their own existence. When you see sanctuaries hand raising captive bred 'never-to-return-to-the-wild' animals or having 'hands-on' ambassador species, it is ard not to call the hypocrite card when they start on holier-than-thou type rants against private keepers and other zoos.


The worst of it all is that a large number of sanctuaries and some zoos have recently joined forces to campaign for legislation to ban the private keeping of primates in the UK. Apart from being entirely hypocritical, it is also completely pointless and a total waste of money and misuse of their severely over stretched funds. Let me explain....

They THINK they are campaigning against 'primates as pets' and that they are campaigning to end the 'monkeys in parrot cages and nappies'. However, there is already existing legislation against this and it's called the Animal Welfare Act 2006. It already makes it an offence to keep primates in that manner. It makes it an offence to pull animals from their parents too young. An offence to give them the incorrect diet. An offence to keep them in appropriate social groups.....and yet, people are still keeping them in that manner.

The problem is NOT that there isn't enough legislation..it's that the existing legislation is NOT PROPERLY ENFORCED. If the legislation exists, and the animals are still kept inappropriately, them what the hell do the people campaigning for a ban think MORE LEGISLATION will actually achieve??!!


If they actually gave a damn about primate welfare and the 'greater good' then they would put all that energy into the appropriate enforcement of the existing legislation and then the support and integration of 'proper' private keepers with the public sector.



Apologies for the shouting, but it is so frustrating when people who should all be on the same side spend so much energy fighting the wrong fight......


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Very well put Andy.
Therefore a statement earlier in this post.
why as an animal loving concerning forum
are we allowing pet shops to advertise 6mnth old babies.
part of the act and ethics we should all be stopping.
both sellers and breeders who do it.
you know my view on internet sales.
good to read your views my friend.
diplomatic as always.


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## Meerkatarmy

O dear Peter you're reading is worse than your spelling, it's meerkatarmy not mummy. I don't keep meerkats as I'm not arrogant enough to put my want for an animal above the needs of an willd animal.

I think you know why most people that are against come to that conclusion I'm no different ie I believe very few members of the public can provide a natural environment where primates have the space /environment/experience to provide a suitable home for primates. I also can only see selfish reasons for keeping primates I.e they are an interesting addition to your collection, it's a nice boost to your ego and it's something not every one has. Places like mw excist because of the pet trade. Primates are stolen from the wild to put primates it your averies until you get bored and the next 'cool' animal or you finally admit or are made to admit you aren't meeting the physical,social,environmental and emotional needs of the primates. Many species of primate are endangered in the wild to fill your need for a 'pet', do you feel no guilt? 

On the flip side why should you be allowed to keep primates or any exotic mammal?


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## PETERAROBERTSON

ok so its now a personal attack on me.
After over 25yrs I don't think ill get bored 
and I have rescue animals here.
unlike some we are vetted and registered to keep endangered species.
You should check back posts.
I don't claim to be best at grammar or spelling.
but your a bit pot,kettle.
have nothing to prove to you.
and I don't have pet monkeys.
I have large family groups.
and all them and me are very happy.
But I do have broad shoulders.
Always like the show where all experienced MW 
tried to put cotton tops with cotton eared..
But it was worth a go...lol
maybe you should take your energy and crusade and put it to use where it matters .
Aviary is for birds.
mine are like MW
IN ENCLOSURES..


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## mrcriss

Meerkatarmy said:


> O dear Peter you're reading is worse than your spelling, it's meerkatarmy not mummy. I don't keep meerkats as I'm not arrogant enough to put my want for an animal above the needs of an willd animal.
> 
> I think you know why most people that are against come to that conclusion I'm no different ie I believe very few members of the public can provide a natural environment where primates have the space /environment/experience to provide a suitable home for primates. I also can only see selfish reasons for keeping primates I.e they are an interesting addition to your collection, it's a nice boost to your ego and it's something not every one has. Places like mw excist because of the pet trade. Primates are stolen from the wild to put primates it your averies until you get bored and the next 'cool' animal or you finally admit or are made to admit you aren't meeting the physical,social,environmental and emotional needs of the primates. Many species of primate are endangered in the wild to fill your need for a 'pet', do you feel no guilt?
> 
> On the flip side why should you be allowed to keep primates or any exotic mammal?


What a d***! I hardly think you're one to comment on the spelling of another, sir!

Long and short of it....if you don't approve of private keepers with exotic mammals (as assumed from your last question), then why are you even on this forum? Or are you simply having a ball being a tough little newbie troll?:bash:

Peter could teach you, and Alison Cronin for that matter, a thing or two about keeping small primates. So I really think you need to crawl back under your bridge, little troll, and choose your battles more wisely.


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## Meerkatarmy

Being called brain washed and calling me a hypocrit are both insults.

See if I was as passionate about keeping an type of animal as you guys claim to be I would tell everyone why. Let's face it the only reason for keeping primates is because you want to. Sod if the babies that were taken from the wild to breed your animals wanted to stay in the wild. You want them in your back yard so there they will be. Will you not feel a sense of guilt when a species you keep becomes extinct in the wild? But long as you're happy that's a ok.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

very happy so i guess yes
that's a ok.


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## mrcriss

Meerkatarmy said:


> Being called brain washed and calling me a hypocrit are both insults.
> 
> See if I was as passionate about keeping an type of animal as you guys claim to be I would tell everyone why. Let's face it the only reason for keeping primates is because you want to. Sod if the babies that were taken from the wild to breed your animals wanted to stay in the wild. You want them in your back yard so there they will be. Will you not feel a sense of guilt when a species you keep becomes extinct in the wild? But long as you're happy that's a ok.


The fact that you are even raising that point as an issue displays your ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject, I'm afraid, and it's utterly unreasonable of you to be shouting the odds now!

The individuals kept in private collections now are so far removed from wild populations that it makes your argument completely moot. There's no point in whining about the parents of those now languishing in private collections having been taken from the wild, because it wasn't the parents...that was SO many generations ago! We're talking really rather a long time! We could moan about individuals from all species having been captured in the wild a long time ago, but it would make no difference as that was a whole other era. The fact is that most exotics kept by responsible collections are now captive bred, unless it has become absolutely necessary for the last few surviving individuals to be caught to enter a managed breeding programme.

Now lets also recognise that in the event of a massive disaster to wild populations, it will in part be down to the responsible keeper (of which Peter is undoubtedly one) to work alongside zoos and conservation projects to provide the genetic diversity required in re-establishing a viable population.....provided, of course, there is a habitat to return them to! Lest we forget that, thanks to private exotic keepers, various species have already been brought back from the brink!

There are keepers of all kinds of species that do it on the quiet, without the showboating and political posturing of Monkey World, and they do it an admirable way.....supplying the best of care, with spacious and interesting enclosures for their charges (I know, because I've visited many of them). Many are working to establish communities of endangered species....little pockets of captive safety for vulnerable species, in case the worst happens to the wild populations. They keep their collections quiet because of numpties like yourselves shouting the odds, stamping your trolly hooves like some kind of PETA-brainwashed nutcase.

But I guess there's no telling someone like you, is there? You've just come on here to flex your newbie muscles. You can either calm down and realise that there is a big difference between responsible keepers like Peter, and the clueless monkey abusers you see housing a chimp in a garage on your favourite TV show....in which case you'll be warmly welcomed here....or just naff off and wave some placard in town centre for one of the many organisations of ill-informed groups of AR cretins that have no idea about how captive conservation works!

Kisses x


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## kodakira

Hi Meerkatarmy,

May I ask if you keep any animals ?.

I am not being judgemental or argumentative here, this is a genuine question / point and one that I just can't get my head round.

Why are primates any different than any other species of animal that are kept in captivity?. They have basic needs and specific needs just like any other animal that is kept in captivity.
I had a quick flick through your list of posts and saw that you commented on Poison Dart Frogs ( forgive me if I am wrong ) but does not the Dart Frog have the same right of care as a Primate ?. The Dart Frog has basic and quite specific needs to be kept in captivity, so why is it ok for that species to be kept in captivity ?. I wonder if people are voicing an opinion that their ancestors, parents may have been snatched from the wild ?. I would hazard a guess that more species of dart frogs are killed in the hobby by neglect, poor care and imports from the wild 
into the country than primates ?. I also keep Dart Frogs, so not anti Dart Frog !!.

Every single animal that is kept in captivity should have the same rights to care, simple as that !!

I do not see people or politicians saying we should ban the keeping of dogs in captivity, why ?. The dog has the exact same rights as a Primate. I am sure the dog beaten, left tied to tree, starved will be saying to itself '' its ok that I am suffering as long as people stop keeping primates in captivity''. As I keep dogs I am more than satisfied that a dog understands pain, neglect just as much as a primate does. So why not ban totally the keeping of dogs ?.

Why is it that a primate should be put on a pedestal above all other animals ?.

Kind Regards

Neil


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## miss_ferret

One day, one fine day, exotic mammals is going to get a troll that chooses animals other than primates to troll about. Come on guys, really put your minds to it, there's a world of captive bred exotics out there just waiting to be tapped for material. 

Still, for the good read I've had while waiting for the hosepipe to defrost, I'd give this thread revival a 6/10. Pass, but could do better.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

correct.
but not in our lifetime...
Cant remember it not going on.
when they get somewhere with internet and pet sales it will improve.
That's the forefront of the problem.
All the bad press comes from this.


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## Meerkatarmy

It's ok l object to all non native mammals ( except in the case of endangered species where the keeper has enough knowledge* to maintain and breed the species, if there is ever a help my skunk, tiger, elk, meerkat etc etc bit me thread I would object on that thread to. I will never see any reason other than human arrogance and the because I want to and I can. I'm not a newbie I've been a while I just don't need to post much. I have seen the craze of APP's and then the APH rescues because people didn't do their research or got bored. Currently thinking about the next big thing. I reason skunks or racons, I worry it may be meerkats. I'm sure you all will disagree but I believe the average person is able to provide a naturalistic living environment which includes immense underground tunnels etc plus obviously they live in big communities. Then it will be another fad and then all of a sudden those with the unfashionable animals won't have time for them so they go up for sale. Then of course they find more tome and move onto the next new thing. 

* knowledge gained either through professional, personal or education means


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## colinm

Whilst you may object to non native mammals being kept as pets fortunately the law doesnt agree with you. If you are talking all non natives how about cats and hamsters? Are you trying to cause arguments wit the people on here? There are lots of posts tat I dont agree with but I dont feel the need to post on all of them.

Whilst most of us do not want to keep primates, its not illegal and as a forum we fully support peoples rights to keep them responsibly.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

still the problem is bad breeders.
selling to those without a clue how to keep.
I've just bought an animal,how do I keep it.
and primates are complicated little critters.
That what they are now targeting.
sales as pets.
and ill say again.
this forum is guilty of allowing it.


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## mrcriss

Meerkatarmy said:


> It's ok l object to all non native mammals


Then _what in the name of living twattery_ are you doing on an exotics forum????

Seriously?!?!?!?!?!

Or is it only mammals? Are reptiles ok? If so, why?

hmmmmmm.....anyone else getting a stenchy whiff of skanky trollish armpit here?


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## kodakira

Meerkatarmy said:


> It's ok l object to all non native mammals ( except in the case of endangered species where the keeper has enough knowledge* to maintain and breed the species, if there is ever a help my skunk, tiger, elk, meerkat etc etc bit me thread I would object on that thread to. I will never see any reason other than human arrogance and the because I want to and I can. I'm not a newbie I've been a while I just don't need to post much. I have seen the craze of APP's and then the APH rescues because people didn't do their research or got bored. Currently thinking about the next big thing. I reason skunks or racons, I worry it may be meerkats. I'm sure you all will disagree but I believe the average person is able to provide a naturalistic living environment which includes immense underground tunnels etc plus obviously they live in big communities. Then it will be another fad and then all of a sudden those with the unfashionable animals won't have time for them so they go up for sale. Then of course they find more tome and move onto the next new thing.
> 
> * knowledge gained either through professional, personal or education means


Hi,

Again you have not given any real evidence, information.

Doesn't all that happen in every aspect of '' pet '' keeping ?

Isn't that why people buy all these colour morphs of various reptiles, to have the next big thing ? Snakes into the 10's of thousands of pounds ?
Don't people sell or dispose of their reptiles on so they can get the next big thing ?

As a Dart Frog keeper I started off with an easy species and progressed to more difficult species. I know keepers who are wanting the rare species for exactly the reasons you seems to dislike in mammal keeping but that appears to be ok.

Not one part of the '' pet keeping '' hobby is immune from this . People take fish, hamsters, spiders etc back to shop or dispose of them, so they can progress or get the next '' in thing ''.

Now don't get me wrong anyone who knows us will tell you we have our animals for life and I agree with you that the exotics trade can be as you describe and I do despise that aspect of it. However the argument is still the same what makes exotics / primates so special ?

God knows how many unwanted dogs, cats, rabbits are in shelters etc and even destroyed each year. I despise that just as much, if not more !!

You can't pick and choose which bits you would like to see banned. It has to be all in, or nothing. Otherwise your argument is that every other animal has no rights / value.


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## Meerkatarmy

You're spot on it would be hypocriticalof me to object to the faddy culture in exotics and not other parts of the animal keeping world. Which is why I don't, to me if you take an animal you take it on for the whole of its life, barring situations where you financially or physically can not meet its needs and even then would have to be extreme situations. I hate the morph culture and don't get me started on deliberately breeding of mmorphs with well documented health issues. If you don't like the way an animal looks naturally don't buy it. What's worse is the days of morphs being breed by specialists now any one that can Google breeds witch pushes the price down meaning there are loads of totals mainly being sold for 20 quid. I'm not a hypocrite I've decided not to buy any more animals and those I have are kept in bio active set ups and are kept as naturally as possible and will be with me for life.

As for domestic cats there are far to many in this country and are destroying our native wildlife. However, I'm not sure cats as we know it are native any where. As for hamsters I have never taken an interest so no idea where they are from. I think societies attitude needs to change towards pets, why do we keep animals? What are the benefits to the animal?


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## mitsi

Meerkatarmy said:


> You're spot on it would be hypocriticalof me to object to the faddy culture in exotics and not other parts of the animal keeping world. Which is why I don't, to me if you take an animal you take it on for the whole of its life, barring situations where you financially or physically can not meet its needs and even then would have to be extreme situations. I hate the morph culture and don't get me started on deliberately breeding of mmorphs with well documented health issues. If you don't like the way an animal looks naturally don't buy it. What's worse is the days of morphs being breed by specialists now any one that can Google breeds witch pushes the price down meaning there are loads of totals mainly being sold for 20 quid. I'm not a hypocrite I've decided not to buy any more animals and those I have are kept in bio active set ups and are kept as naturally as possible and will be with me for life.
> 
> As for domestic cats there are far to many in this country and are destroying our native wildlife. However, I'm not sure cats as we know it are native any where. As for hamsters I have never taken an interest so no idea where they are from. I think societies attitude needs to change towards pets, why do we keep animals? What are the benefits to the animal?


Have to agree that natural animals are far better than the morphs.
dont agree with cats destroying our native wildlife, man does far more damage, its us as a species that are ruining the countryside by keep building etc etc, therefore taking away our native wildlifes habitat.


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## colinm

Of all the pet species cats do far more harm to native wildlife than any of the others. It's a well documented fact with regards to small mammals, birds, amphibians and reptiles.


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## mitsi

And if it werent for cats the farms etc would be over run with rats and mice, far more than poisons could cope with, then birds foxes would eat these and get poisoned themselves, lots of grain etc would have to be thrown away due to contamination from the rodents. Cats dont cut down woodland and hedgerows, or dig up fields to build houses and shops, or contaminate the waterways, man does this.


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## colinm

We are not talking about people here , we are talking about pets. Whether you like it or not no other pet goes and out and hunts other animals on a regular basis.Cats do more harm to native wildlife than any other type of pet.


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## Middleton Mouse

Thinking of the objection to non-native mammals as pets, is there actually any of the common species that are proper natives (so rats and rabbits wouldn't count). I'm struggling to think of any.

I wouldn't mind a pet fox. I'd call him Fantastic Mr Fox.


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## PigeonYouDead

Middleton Mouse said:


> Thinking of the objection to non-native mammals as pets, is there actually any of the common species that are proper natives (so rats and rabbits wouldn't count). I'm struggling to think of any.
> 
> I wouldn't mind a pet fox. I'd call him Fantastic Mr Fox.


This. This is it.

How far back do you go before you decide what is or isn't native, and following on from that what is or isn't a pet?

All animals, domesticated pets, meat animals, undomesticated animals kept as pets, started out generations back in the wild. Doing their own thing, away from people. However, that doesn't mean that they don't assimilate seamlessly into our lives, or enrich our lives. Nor does it mean that we don't enrich their lives in some way; for those animals kept properly by people, there is zero competition for food, no predation, no succumbing to natural disaster or illness or injury, all in all a much easier life than a wild counterpart.

Chastising all exotic animal keepers as idiots is not the way. Education is the only way forward; and it shouldn't be an "us and them" attitude towards zoologists / people with a degree on paper, and those that gain their experience through reading books in their own time / talking / hands on experience. It's all valuable in different ways and one way isn't necessarily better than the other.


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## PETERAROBERTSON

This post has become very confusing.
First its not ok.
Then if its for life it is.
Then you need to work at MW
or read books or work in a zoo.
Now its cats.
Weird


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## Meerkatarmy

I never said you had to work at mw. Other people moved on to other animals but I'm out I can't be arsed people will do what they want no matter what any one else says


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## Meerkatarmy

Meerkatarmy said:


> I never said you had to work at mw. Other people moved on to other animals but I'm out I can't be arsed people will do what they want no matter what any one else says



I also know you are either being intentionally dense or can't cfollow a convo but the comment on pets being for life was in connection with the convo around fads in animal keeping of all sorts


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## PETERAROBERTSON

25yrs isn't a fad.
its 5 yrs longer than monkeyworld.
Should change your name to hokey kokey
your in out in out.
Why do you want to know why people keep.
your a trouble maker.
and abusive.
maybe I am dense,but I know how to keep new world primates as natural as possible in captivity.
And I am out. You are a waste of effort.
crusade finished


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## Meerkatarmy

O my dear Lord will you please seek help for your egocentricism. No one was referring to you or even primates when talking about fads!


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## Thistles

I'm actually quite confused as well. This has turned from a marmoset biting to... I don't even know, IMHO


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## PETERAROBERTSON

Meerkatarmy said:


> O my dear Lord will you please seek help for your egocentricism. No one was referring to you or even primates when talking about fads!


Maybe you should spend a bit of time and have a read at what you actually wrote.
And you say I'm dense.
EGOCENTRISM doesn't come into it at all.
What age are you...Have a good Xmas
I'll spend a great deal of mine looking after my animals.


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