# leiurus quinquestriatus vivarium designed for 2?



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

I am building a secure holding for leiurus (probably) and have acquired a nice (deep!) old fish tank. 36" by 12" by 18" in height. 

Given the length of the tank i thought it might house two. With a territory designed at each end of the tank and the centre being dominated by a false rock feature under which i will put the (covered) heat mat. If it makes more sense i may divide the enclosure to begin with in order that they get settled in their respective territories but i would prefer that in the long run this is not necessary.

The scorps will have ample room to burrow separately and sandstone at their individual ends too, and built-in underground caves at the extreme ends of the tank to unearth. There should be no competition over territory. (unless they prefer larger territories than i have been lead to believe)

My thinking is that they might not kill one another in this environment, but i have read mixed and sometimes contradictory info on their behaviour. Is this tank big enough for two? Does the proposed arrangement make any difference to the chances of it being successful? 

I will discuss the safety features that i am building in a separate thread so that anyone whole feels like it can admonish me for my newbie foolhardiness there ;-) (yes i know ....... DWA, pain pain pain, death death death)

Thanks


----------



## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

Being DWA I wouldn't want to be in the situation where by I had to seperate to fighting scorpions tbh. Maybe for your own safty using a glass partition is best?

Also the heat matt should be on the back of the tank not underneath as the scorps burrow to escape the heat etc


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

hermenaught said:


> (yes i know ....... DWA, pain pain pain, death death death)
> 
> Thanks


Yeh, that's all I was going to moan about, seeing as you have that covered, I have nothing else to offer here


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Kamike said:


> Being DWA I wouldn't want to be in the situation where by I had to seperate to fighting scorpions tbh. Maybe for your own safty using a glass partition is best?


hmmmm .... i hadn't thought about seperating them.  If they fight then they would have to be seperate of course ...... i dont want one to die. But i figured if they did one would be dead and so it wouldnt be an issue. 



Kamike said:


> Also the heat matt should be on the back of the tank not underneath as the scorps burrow to escape the heat etc


OK ........ thanks .... i live in scotland though the wee criters will be burrowing to get warm lol


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

hermenaught said:


> hmmmm .... i hadn't thought about seperating them. If they fight then they would have to be seperate of course ...... i dont want one to die. But i figured if they did one would be dead and so it wouldnt be an issue.
> 
> OK ........ thanks .... i live in scotland though the wee criters will be burrowing to get warm lol


It's just a bad idea full stop.

Are they actually DWA? Do you have a DWA? They are expensive and vary in price depending on where you live. 

You're best to keep them singly, especially if you are unfamiliar with scorpions, DWA animals and their husbandry.


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

GRB said:


> It's just a bad idea full stop.
> 
> Are they actually DWA? Do you have a DWA? They are expensive and vary in price depending on where you live.
> 
> You're best to keep them singly, especially if you are unfamiliar with scorpions, DWA animals and their husbandry.


Yes they are. I am applying for a licence. They are not that expensive; £105 here.


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

hermenaught said:


> Yes they are. I am applying for a licence. They are not that expensive; £105 here.


How much are vets fees and liability insurance round there?


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> How much are vets fees and liability insurance round there?


Perhaps during your 25000 posts you picked up some info regarding that.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

If you are applying for a DWAL then you will need to have a complete working knowledge of the animals you will be keeping and asking questions such as this implies you are a long way off being granted one. By your own admission and in your own words you are a newbie

A point that someone else also picked up on: you are placing heat mats under the vivs. Why not get experience with non DWA scorps first?

I also find it odd that you are asking fourmites questions on security features, as a partner to someone who holds the correct licences for DWA animals, i know you should have a contact within the authourities or at least guidelines available to work from if you are indeed applying for the relevant licence/s


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Muze said:


> If you are applying for a DWAL then you will need to have a complete working knowledge of the animals you will be keeping and asking questions such as this implies you are a long way off being granted one. By your own admission and in your own words you are a newbie
> 
> A point that someone else also picked up on: you are placing heat mats under the vivs. Why not get experience with non DWA scorps first?
> 
> I also find it odd that you are asking fourmites questions on security features, as a partner to someone who holds the correct licences for DWA animals, i know you should have a contact within the authourities or at least guidelines available to work from if you are indeed applying for the relevant licence/s


oh for gods sake!!

I really tried hard to avoid this! There are so many people on this site that are just champing at the bit to tell folk they shouldn't be getting DWA species of scorpion. Its pathetic, its off topic, I dont want to discuss it, its my decision and as i stated at the beginning of this thread i have given such people the opportunity to admonish me in another thread.

I was asking for some behavioural advice about a particular species given particular environmental circumstances as described. This is specialist knowledge and I asked here as its filled with people who have first hand knowledge. I have no interest in what you think you know about my ability to get a licence or take care of the creature or not get stung. So save it!

As for your 'expert' advice so far in this thread. 

Firstly; scorpions do not just use burrows for cooling during the day, they also use them to keep warm during the night. Since the objective is to try and re-create the natural environment as accurately as possible I am enjoying my attempts to create a safe night time environment that mimics the desert..... i.e. cold at night! The construction i am undertaking provides a stone cover for the mats meaning that the scorpion cannot burrow to it (but can burrow near it), and also that the heat will dissipate slowly through the stone during the night. I will be testing the thing fully for temperature parameters through-out the enclosure of course and if it doesn’t work then i will be doing the usual and fixing it to the side of the viv.

Again this is off topic; not at all what i was asking for advice on.

Secondly; dont you ever question my integrity. I take the thing seriously and I dont break the law so unless you have anything intelligent to say on the topic i actually asked about please get on with your own hobby and stop interfering with mine.

Now, i am a newbie to your forum and was asking a particular question. If anyone has anything to say on the issue of Leiurus living together in these circumstances i would be very grateful of your input. I have been reading the forums of ra while now and have read that the are not at all communal, and also that they can live together if the tank is big enough.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Ok keep your LQs together and the problem of keeping them together will be solved for you. I was going to comment further on how we keep ours, but feel you dont have the capacity to take anything of value on board.

Im not going to bother wasting my time on someone who is so defensive. This is an open forum last time i checked and im free to post pretty much what i like (aslong as it is within forum rules), so will question or write anything i feel the need to.


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Muze said:


> Ok keep your LQs together and the problem of keeping them together will be solved for you. I was going to comment further on how we keep ours, but feel you dont have the capacity to take anything of value on board.
> 
> Im not going to bother wasting my time on someone who is so defensive. This is an open forum last time i checked and im free to post pretty much what i like (aslong as it is within forum rules), so will question or write anything i feel the need to.


You are free to post what you want, so are trolls.
If you want to keep your experience to yourself, go in peace with my blessing.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Trolls are people with low post counts and newbies to forums i think you will find :whistling2:


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Muze said:


> Trolls are people with low post counts and newbies to forums i think you will find :whistling2:


You dont get any sharper as the day goes on do you.

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" Wiki


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

hermenaught said:


> Perhaps during your 25000 posts you picked up some info regarding that.


Erm excuse me?!

It was a simple question, no, for SCOTLAND I don't know how much liability and vets fees are, it was a simple question. What the hell reason was there to get so arsey!?

And, for your information, 99% of all my 25,000 posts are in off topic, because funnily enough you come into the proper sections like these and people are talking about real life issues and getting arsey over small things. 

So I'll ask you again: In Scotland, where you live, out of interest, how much are liability insurance and vets fees?


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Ash, give up mate :lol2:

We are clearly wasting our time :crazy:


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Muze said:


> Ash, give up mate :lol2:
> 
> We are clearly wasting our time :crazy:


I think I agree :|


----------



## Josh-sama (Sep 26, 2008)

Muze said:


> Trolls are people with low post counts and newbies to forums i think you will find :whistling2:


Sorry to correct you Abi.

Trolls are actually someone who posts comments specifically to cause an arguement.

To the OP: The way you've come across is as if you have no idea about the species you wish to keepm and come across as a complete arsehole. Shape up mate, otherwise you won't get any help.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Josh-sama said:


> Sorry to correct you Abi.
> 
> Trolls are actually someone who posts comments specifically to cause an arguement.
> 
> To the OP: The way you've come across is as if you have no idea about the species you wish to keepm and come across as a complete arsehole. Shape up mate, otherwise you won't get any help.


Oops i stand corrected:Na_Na_Na_Na:...i think people will back me up here by saying im deffo not a troll

And totally agree with you Josh, you put it so much better than i could :lol2:


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

That size is extremely too large, even for massive adults, plus the height could be an issue unless your are planning to fill it with a lot of sand which gives an security issue, what type of lid are you planning on using for the tank?

Seperate territories sounds like a good idea as long as you have a solid divider down the middle that cannot be dug under or clambered over.

Any rocks/stones in a burrowing species tank need to be firmly secured to the bottom or sides of the tank for safety and any caves need to be secured together and also secured to the bottom or sides of the tank also.

You keep two in an undivided tank you will best case scenario end up with one fat scorpion, worst case two dead scorpions.

Your flippancy over the DWA aspect of these scorpions makes me think you don't currently have a license nor would you be granted one, they are extremely dangerous animals, exceptionally quick to anger and very fast to strike if annoyed.

Did I miss anything? 

*Edit*

Seems I did, heat mats under tanks for invertebrates is a bad idea, they burrow to escape heat, your comments about them burrowing to get heat is partially correct, but they do this when the surface temperature has dropped to an unacceptable level, with using a heatmat underneath the tank, the scorpion will have nowhere to escape to from the heat and could potentially cook to death, also, heat mats inside any animals tank is an extremely bad behaviour both for the health of the animal and the safety of your home.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> That size is extremely too large, even for massive adults, plus the height could be an issue unless your are planning to fill it with a lot of sand which gives an security issue, what type of lid are you planning on using for the tank?
> 
> Seperate territories sounds like a good idea as long as you have a solid divider down the middle that cannot be dug under or clambered over.
> 
> ...


Yes...saying im not a troll babe lmao


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Muze said:


> Yes...saying im not a troll babe lmao


Your not a troll, your an ogre


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> Your not a troll, your an ogre



Ahh thankies :flrt:


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Now waits for OP to flame someone with years of experience...as they did with me...:lol2:


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Young_Gun said:


> That size is extremely too large, even for massive adults, plus the height could be an issue unless your are planning to fill it with a lot of sand which gives an security issue, what type of lid are you planning on using for the tank?


The tank is 18" tall and will be double lidded. Inner lid will be cut to fit perspex with a slidding door feeding hole, outer lid will be glass. This will leave 16 or 17". 6" of sand. There will eb some sandstone in the vivarium but none will be closer than 6 or 7" fromthe inner roof.



Young_Gun said:


> Seperate territories sounds like a good idea as long as you have a solid divider down the middle that cannot be dug under or clambered over.


yea for sure, if i was trying to seperate them, but really i was asking whether it was possible not to.



Young_Gun said:


> Any rocks/stones in a burrowing species tank need to be firmly secured to the bottom or sides of the tank for safety and any caves need to be secured together and also secured to the bottom or sides of the tank also.


 Defo



Young_Gun said:


> You keep two in an undivided tank you will best case scenario end up with one fat scorpion, worst case two dead scorpions.


You definately not this first to have this opinion about this species, but i have also been told otherwise. I have read somewhere on a forum that it is not the case if the tank is large enough. Today went to a store and took some advice there. According to the guy at the store it is possible that it would pan out as you suggest, but also that it might not. He thought the idea of a temorary divider was good and might improve chances of them both settling down. Other advice was to start with two equally sized critters and also that maybe start with three and let nature take its course, leaving the two equally matched ones.



Young_Gun said:


> Your flippancy over the DWA aspect of these scorpions makes me think you don't currently have a license nor would you be granted one, they are extremely dangerous animals, exceptionally quick to anger and very fast to strike if annoyed.


It it not flippant to ask people to mind there own business in this issue and just stick to the question. While i am sure you are used to idiots and trolls, there is also a great deal of snobbery going on and i am just trying to get some straight advice. Some people seem to feel the need to preserve the right to own one of these creatures because it is part of their overblown self importance. I am applying for a licence and getting insurance, thats teh environemental agencies issue, i am not about to get myself stung, thats my issue, and i am asking for advice on quite another point of the animals behaviour.... taht is the issue for those here, who by dint of their presence, are supposed to be part of a knowledge sharing community. I made further enquiries today, and though the council seemed initially pretty clueless, there should be, as far as i can tell, absolutely no problem getting a liecence. 



Young_Gun said:


> Did I miss anything?


I think you probably missed out looking at this thread from my perspective. Its not exaclty a friendly introduction. In fact, its filled with pre-concieved ideas, snobbish attitudes and snippy comments. Not to mention actual verbal abuse.



Young_Gun said:


> Seems I did, heat mats under tanks for invertebrates is a bad idea, they burrow to escape heat, your comments about them burrowing to get heat is partially correct, but they do this when the surface temperature has dropped to an unacceptable level, with using a heatmat underneath the tank, the scorpion will have nowhere to escape to from the heat and could potentially cook to death, also, heat mats inside any animals tank is an extremely bad behaviour both for the health of the animal and the safety of your home.


I am leaning toward agreeing with you here. Although i would never cook the scorp cos i would test the whoel hting as i said before. The pet store guy used similar method but heat the stone with a lamp..... this seems like a good plan to me. I think i have underestimated the strength of the heat mats. Also... there seem to be ecramic versions... i will look into that too.

All the same though... thatnks for your input.


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> Erm excuse me?!
> 
> It was a simple question, no, for SCOTLAND I don't know how much liability and vets fees are, it was a simple question. What the hell reason was there to get so arsey!?
> 
> ...


Sorry, i thought you were being snippy, as your first reply seemed like a joke and this type of insurance does not vary by geographical area. The insurance is about £140. I have to be regestered with a vet, i havnt looked into fees.


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

hermenaught said:


> Sorry, i thought you were being snippy, as your first reply seemed like a joke and this type of insurance does not vary by geographical area. The insurance is about £140. I have to be regestered with a vet, i havnt looked into fees.


I was being slightly snippy, but only in a jokey way. My advice to you is to stop being so OTT about things if you want to get along with people on this forum (which, despite what you might say, you do. As you requested info/opinions). 

And thanks, aye. The vets fees are what I can't seem to work out what they are! Otherwise, it's quite cheap for a DWA round here too...


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Josh-sama said:


> Sorry to correct you Abi.
> 
> Trolls are actually someone who posts comments specifically to cause an arguement.
> 
> To the OP: The way you've come across is as if you have no idea about the species you wish to keepm and come across as a complete arsehole. Shape up mate, otherwise you won't get any help.


"Arsehole" lol ...... hypocrite, by just speaking like that. I use forums on other subjects and have never, ever encountered such a shambles of pretentious nonsense in my life. 

I will get help or i wont. If you dont want to give advice, dont, surely you have something more interesting to be commenting on?


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

Cmon guys, do you have nothing better to do?

Lets actually offer some advice...

If I were you I'd partition that in to 3 vivs, that way you can house 3 seperate specimens. Also, I'm not really sure L.Q's are the best thing for the space, they're not the most interesting species in the world. If you've got a DWA you may as well get some interesting species like Babycurus or Tityus, both of which are communal (you could perhaps partition in to two and have a colony of each, that'd be cool).

And regarding the heat mats underneith thing, I've been keeping them for years, and spent the majority of that time preaching the same "don't do it" crap, but in reality scorpions are much better for maintaining their body temperature than you give them credit for. So long as the mat covers no more than 45% of the underneith of the viv then there won't be a problem with thermoregulation.

Dan


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Moonleh said:


> Cmon guys, do you have nothing better to do?
> 
> Lets actually offer some advice...


Much appreciated.



Moonleh said:


> If I were you I'd partition that in to 3 vivs, that way you can house 3 seperate specimens. Also, I'm not really sure L.Q's are the best thing for the space, they're not the most interesting species in the world. If you've got a DWA you may as well get some interesting species like Babycurus or Tityus, both of which are communal (you could perhaps partition in to two and have a colony of each, that'd be cool).


hmmmmmmmmm  I like that idea. I hadn't looked at Tityus before, there seems to be a few... do you mean Tityus serrulatus? .... please excuse my ignorance. I did mention in another post that i am open to suggestions about final dicision on species and have detailed - very honestly - the qualities i find attractive. That jaksoni is a fine looking beasty. I like the idea of having a communal species as obviously it means more behaviour to observe ...... would have to way up the drawbacks of course like babies and trying to avoid stings while cleaning etc If they are an active species then its definitely an option.... your the second person i have heard say that LQ's are not that exciting. Its a major drawback if they just hide all the time but i dont know if it is the most common experience of the species. I have also been told that one specimen of any species can be super shy while another can be "a total psycho". 

I suppose having just two critters in the space is a bit wasteful. Its not optimum utilisation for sure, but I think they are best off with about 12" by 12" territory, is that right? I cant remember where i got that figure from.



Moonleh said:


> And regarding the heat mats underneith thing, I've been keeping them for years, and spent the majority of that time preaching the same "don't do it" crap, but in reality scorpions are much better for maintaining their body temperature than you give them credit for. So long as the mat covers no more than 45% of the underneith of the viv then there won't be a problem with thermoregulation.
> Dan


Well, I was going to put it under a hollow stone in the middle of a 3 foot tank, so i didnt expect it to be an issue. Its just a way of approaching a 'problem'. Im quite into design so the whole project of creating a realistic artificial environment and developing safe systems for handling the potentially dangerous creature all fun for me. Cant wait to get my chunk of sandstone and start carving my little critters cliff  Once i have the viv constructed i will fully test various solutions.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## davieboi (Jul 17, 2008)

out of curiosity have you kept any scorps before if not you may want to try a copy cat e.g. a scorp that is quick to sting and bad tempered as you may find scorp arent as interesting as you thought theyd be also id suggest getting some books as tey almost always have dwa scorp care mostly coz theyre usually american


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

Sounds good, communal species are pretty damn fun, and I'd recomend Babycurus to anybody, they're stunning and pretty interesting to keep, plus their size means you can keep alot in a relatively small space. Your also not in that much trouble if you get stung by them, it'll hurt of course, but theres not a great deal to worry about (same can't be said for Tityus though...), unless your allergic, in which case even an emperor scorpion is dangerous to you. That said your fingers should never get close enough to be tagged, mine never have. The majority of DWA scorpions aren't dangerous to a healthy adult so I'd perhaps suggest going with a milder species to start with, its so you can learn how to work with aggressive scorpions without the risk of dying...

I wouldn't worry too much about the temperature, so long as they have a warm bit and a cool bit, they'll do the rest, scorpion sensitivity to temperature and ability to regulate is quite astounding from my own experience.


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

wow Tityus bahiensis are beautiful :shock:


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

davieboi said:


> out of curiosity have you kept any scorps before if not you may want to try a copy cat e.g. a scorp that is quick to sting and bad tempered as you may find scorp arent as interesting as you thought theyd be also id suggest getting some books as tey almost always have dwa scorp care mostly coz theyre usually american


I have never kept scorpions no. 
I was into bugs when i was young, I guess you could say this is a re-awakening of sorts. I will definitely be researching thoroughly, possibly once i am definately decided in a species i will get a book on the family.


----------



## davieboi (Jul 17, 2008)

i really suggest you get a non dwa scorp before you spend alot of money on scorpions they are really not exciting at all they tend to be poor feeders and not very active 

personally tarantulas are far more exciting and are far more active in general


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Moonleh said:


> Sounds good, communal species are pretty damn fun, and I'd recomend Babycurus to anybody, they're stunning and pretty interesting to keep, plus their size means you can keep alot in a relatively small space. Your also not in that much trouble if you get stung by them, it'll hurt of course, but theres not a great deal to worry about (same can't be said for Tityus though...), unless your allergic, in which case even an emperor scorpion is dangerous to you. That said your fingers should never get close enough to be tagged, mine never have. The majority of DWA scorpions aren't dangerous to a healthy adult so I'd perhaps suggest going with a milder species to start with, its so you can learn how to work with aggressive scorpions without the risk of dying...
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about the temperature, so long as they have a warm bit and a cool bit, they'll do the rest, scorpion sensitivity to temperature and ability to regulate is quite astounding from my own experience.


I wouldn't want to get stung by a species that was quite harmless, never mind a hot species. Having said that, i have been stung by other beasties here and in S.A. and have never shown any particular sensitivity (though i wouldnt want to get any more S.A. hornets stings). I am also a pretty cautious person, a calculated risk taker and I am not exactly infirm, ..... 14 stones, quite athletic.... and live about 2 minutes walk from an A&E. Im not pointing this out to be blaze`, its simply part of the risk calculation, as is the time i take over designing precautions, and taking pride in the precautions i design.

If my interest in LQ wanes then i guess an active communal species would be best and if i got excited for the right species i could even re-think the viv to forest environment How many do you think a 36", 12", 18" tank could hold?


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

davieboi said:


> i really suggest you get a non dwa scorp before you spend alot of money on scorpions they are really not exciting at all they tend to be poor feeders and not very active
> 
> personally tarantulas are far more exciting and are far more active in general


I guess its very subjective. Im really not keen on spiders at all, i dont enjoy looking at them. Sorry :-/


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

davieboi said:


> i really suggest you get a non dwa scorp before you spend alot of money on scorpions they are really not exciting at all they tend to be poor feeders and not very active
> 
> personally tarantulas are far more exciting and are far more active in general


Spoken like a true emperor scorpion keeper.

Alot of scorpions are quite the opposite of what you describe them as. I challenge you to find me a spider which would provide more visual entertainment than a brimming colony of Centruroides.

Back to the topic of the Babycurus, I think such a large viv would be wasted on them unless you divided it, but for arguments sake, if you had the appropriate set up, you could keep more than 50 in there (naturally its ill advised as a set up like that is highly impractical and would lead to you getting stung, not to mention the problems of having 20 females running about with 20 babies on each of their backs).


----------



## davieboi (Jul 17, 2008)

Moonleh said:


> Spoken like a true emperor scorpion keeper.
> 
> Alot of scorpions are quite the opposite of what you describe them as. I challenge you to find me a spider which would provide more visual entertainment than a brimming colony of Centruroides.
> 
> Back to the topic of the Babycurus, I think such a large viv would be wasted on them unless you divided it, but for arguments sake, if you had the appropriate set up, you could keep more than 50 in there (naturally its ill advised as a set up like that is highly impractical and would lead to you getting stung, not to mention the problems of having 20 females running about with 20 babies on each of their backs).


 hehe true i havent kept any dwa scorps but from the 3species i kept h.spinifer cant remember the chile cocolate and atacama reds names but they werent exciting to keep and for more visual entertainment ill leave you with 3 choices a poecilotheria metallica,avicularia versicolor sling feeding or a macothele species at the entrance of its burrow:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Moonleh said:


> Spoken like a true emperor scorpion keeper.
> 
> Alot of scorpions are quite the opposite of what you describe them as. I challenge you to find me a spider which would provide more visual entertainment than a brimming colony of Centruroides.
> 
> Back to the topic of the Babycurus, I think such a large viv would be wasted on them unless you divided it, but for arguments sake, if you had the appropriate set up, you could keep more than 50 in there (naturally its ill advised as a set up like that is highly impractical and would lead to you getting stung, not to mention the problems of having 20 females running about with 20 babies on each of their backs).


50! wtf! lol naaa... think i would give that a bodyswerve. Would much prefer to risk it with something deadly i can see, than with my other half going ape shit about hundreds of babies scorpions she cant! 

Babycurus is what 2.5 to 3.5 inches? 
The seems to be less in about tityus around, are thery similar, come in similar quatities? 
There are some lovely looking species but i thikn if there were going to be a commun, it would have to be a sensible size...... im not sure what that is, but right now i think 4 beasties over an 18" by 12" space would be plenty to be keeping track of. And no babies!

Are LQ's really that boring? and would they really eat each other with all that space?


----------



## davieboi (Jul 17, 2008)

babycurus jacksonii are stunning scorps and will probs cost you around £10-£25 each 

personally if i could have dwa id have a Androctonus bicolor man fat tails are cool looking 

but while im not a particular fan of scorps and you are i still reccomend you keep a non dwa scorp before hand so you know what your getting into


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

No Tityus are rarer and harder to keep, so perhaps something to avoid right now. Babycurus is quite a small species, bare in mind with scorpion sizing it includes the tail.

L.Q's are pretty boring from what I've been told by a good friend who keeps them, never kept them myself (so can't really advise on their care) but most people I've spoken to who have a DWA seem to find them quite boring. Androctonus australis would be a more fun species if aggression is what your looking for, but as a far more aggressive sp I'd advise staying away, your significantly more likely to recieve a sting there.

I'd look in to scorpions more, there are some great species out there, don't go for one just because of its potency. I'd read around over at arachnoboards if I were you, you'll get a more helpful response than the cold one you get on a board full of textbook experts


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Moonleh said:


> No Tityus are rarer and harder to keep, so perhaps something to avoid right now. Babycurus is quite a small species, bare in mind with scorpion sizing it includes the tail.
> 
> L.Q's are pretty boring from what I've been told by a good friend who keeps them, never kept them myself (so can't really advise on their care) but most people I've spoken to who have a DWA seem to find them quite boring. Androctonus australis would be a more fun species if aggression is what your looking for, but as a far more aggressive sp I'd advise staying away, your significantly more likely to recieve a sting there.
> 
> I'd look in to scorpions more, there are some great species out there, don't go for one just because of its potency. I'd read around over at arachnoboards if I were you, you'll get a more helpful response than the cold one you get on a board full of textbook experts


Yes, i have been and will be reading lots more of the boards.
Thanks for the advice. And @ DavieBoi too, thanks. I Do realise that my interest in LQ's is somewhat passe` and must rile some folk as it IS, quite admittedly, based on their danger status. That said, i really dont think it is, on it own, a bad thing to be attracted to, provided of course, your not a muppet! I do sports every day that could result in injury, paralysis and even death, there are lots of reasons i do them but i know the risks and i am choosy about the ones i take. Dangerous creatures have their allure, denying that and keeping them is more dangerious IMHO than admitting it and keeping them. I have been reading over the boards for a while now and I think the irrational attacks on would be keepers of hot species is counter productive. Certainly in my case, there is plenty of other attractions to scorpions that can be stimulated by friendly discussion and the generous sharing of knowledge. On the other hand, anyone who tells me i cant or shouldn't do something, is feuling a quite irrational desire on my part to prove the critics wrong by safely caring for a species that i might not otherwise have opted for....... definelty not a character trait i am proud of, but non-the-less, one i share with many!

On the subject of Androctonus australis. I had looked at it, but since the potency was almost as high as with LQ, it seemed to make more sence to just get an LQ. Whats the point in the risk to say that your keeping the second most potent scorpion. Its a bit like spending shed loads of cash on a 911 porsche that is a bit slower than another, equally expensive 911 porsche. The aggression of the species is only really relevent in my eyes as it relates to the behavious that can be watched. i.e... i think they will pose more, attack their food and hide less. Is this is a miss-apprehension? 

PLease dont get me wrong. The dangerous beasty attraction is just one attraction. I admire scorpions for their design, i enjoy watching them, i am intersted in their behaviour from the point of view of someone who has been an arm-chair naturalist for the best part of 30 years. BAsically, i think they are cool...... a glow in the dark, danger beasty that was originally designed for life under the sea 420 million years ago! lol ... whats not to love!

If some people dont like the way I like scorpions, tough. For my part, i expect that my interest and enjoyment of them will grow, develop and expand as i learn more about them.

@ Davieboy ..... its a good point to keep a less dangerous species first, but by the time 6-8 years have past i will be getting down to having a family and i wouldn't keep them with kiddies around; too many variables. Teh risks ar present are much more manageable and there is another argument that goes something like, if you use commmon sence and plan properly, you shouldn't have any problems keeping any scorpion. 

Anyways..... i remain open to suggestions and look forward to anyone telling me how cool another species is to keep.


----------



## xxstaggyxx (Oct 22, 2008)

im not to sure if it has been trown out there but what about the 

Buthus occitanus

or 

Babycurus gigas


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

hermenaught said:


> On the subject of Androctonus australis. I had looked at it, but since the potency was almost as high as with LQ, it seemed to make more sence to just get an LQ. Whats the point in the risk to say that your keeping the second most potent scorpion. Its a bit like spending shed loads of cash on a 911 porsche that is a bit slower than another, equally expensive 911 porsche. The aggression of the species is only really relevent in my eyes as it relates to the behavious that can be watched. i.e... i think they will pose more, attack their food and hide less. Is this is a miss-apprehension?


Heh, if its danger your after then A. australis is accountable for far more deaths than L.q's.

Anyway, I have a dissertation to be writing, I need to stay off boards like this :whip:


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Babycurus gigas is a nice looking scorp, but seems like there isnt alot known about how to keep it. Is that right? Are there many around? And neither species are communal right? so, same problem as with LQ re the enclosure yea?


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Moonleh said:


> Heh, if its danger your after then A. australis is accountable for far more deaths than L.q's.
> 
> Anyway, I have a dissertation to be writing, I need to stay off boards like this :whip:


ha! Exactly what i should be doing :-( so boring compared to planning a vivarium though!


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Nice to see you, to see you nice. Literally. You seem to have mellowed a bit. 

I think it's very dubious that you want a species of scorpion purely for it's status, as with any animal. You mentioned some other reasons for it... but it's still odd.

I'd _love_ some Babycurus jacksoni, as they are beautiful scorpions and have slightly different habits/requirements to others. They are relatively non-venomous, but are in the Buthidae family and so are DWA animals. Which means I can't have them  I don't want them _because_ they're DWA. 

I currently keep 6 species of scorpion, they are all interesting and have different habitas/requirements. I don't see how the extra fact of one being "deadly" makes it special. Just means my hands stay further away than they already do now.


----------



## xxstaggyxx (Oct 22, 2008)

hermenaught said:


> Babycurus gigas is a nice looking scorp, but seems like there isnt alot known about how to keep it. Is that right? Are there many around? And neither species are communal right? so, same problem as with LQ re the enclosure yea?


not to much is known about them but if you search google you will get some results they are easy to get hold over in germany there is a breeder called jorg who is selling off some scorplings at the mo


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

xxstaggyxx said:


> not to much is known about them but if you search google you will get some results they are easy to get hold over in germany there is a breeder called jorg who is selling off some scorplings at the mo


It would definately be an interesting project to try and raise a scorpion that is not very well known. But i guess it might be a bit adventurous given my lack of experience dont you think?


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> Nice to see you, to see you nice. Literally. You seem to have mellowed a bit.
> 
> I think it's very dubious that you want a species of scorpion purely for it's status, as with any animal. You mentioned some other reasons for it... but it's still odd.
> 
> ...


"Dubious" ... well..... maybe. I can understand your point of view there but I dont agree that there is anything fundamentally wrong with such an attraction. As i said previously, it shouldn't be taken to imply imprudence. It isn't as you agreed, the only reason i am interested in scorpions, though it is an attraction to THAT species of scorpion. It is one of its attractive characteristics. That is not to say that the attractive characteristics of an alternative wont out way it in the final analysis. 

BTW,,, i dont have any inclination to handle ANY scorpion. For me, they are for observation only.

I am pretty mellow. If you read through the opening posts from my perspective I am sure you will agree that I had reason to be jaggy. 

My original question on this thread is still open btw, and so far only one side of the discussion has been heard. I know for sure that someone has experience of successfully keeping more than one LQ in the same enclosure. It would be great to know what the conditions were and if my suggestions would have any bearing on successfully achieving this.

What species do you keep? 

Peace.


----------



## xxstaggyxx (Oct 22, 2008)

hermenaught said:


> It would definately be an interesting project to try and raise a scorpion that is not very well known. But i guess it might be a bit adventurous given my lack of experience dont you think?


good read on the b.gigas


Babycurus gigas factsheet - Skorpionforen.eu


----------



## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

hermenaught said:


> "Dubious" ... well..... maybe. I can understand your point of view there but I dont agree that there is anything fundamentally wrong with such an attraction. As i said previously, it shouldn't be taken to imply imprudence. It isn't as you agreed, the only reason i am interested in scorpions, though it is an attraction to THAT species of scorpion. It is one of its attractive characteristics. That is not to say that the attractive characteristics of an alternative wont out way it in the final analysis.


I don't really think it should come into much/any of the reasoning behind buying an animal personally. That said, if you are going to offer it spot on care, then the reasoning doesn't matter. 



hermenaught said:


> BTW,,, i dont have any inclination to handle ANY scorpion. For me, they are for observation only.


Sorry if I was mis-understood! I don't handle _any_ of mine either. They're not for handling. I meant I would use bigger tongs, and not take pieces of wood out with my hands etc... I literally meant "my hands would be further away". 



hermenaught said:


> I am pretty mellow. If you read through the opening posts from my perspective I am sure you will agree that I had reason to be jaggy.


Your initial few posts (I saw your very first post) looked very much like you were not going to listen to what others had to say. 



hermenaught said:


> What species do you keep?


Currently:

0.2.0 Flat Rock Scorpions, 0.1.0 Emperor Scorpion, 1.1.0 Scorpio maurus, 0.1.0 Smeringurus mesaensis, 0.0.1 Vaejovis (Hoffmannius?) confusus, 0.0.3 Bothriurus keyserlingi

My female S. maurus has been mated (yey!), and my S. mesaensis gave birth recently... but to duds


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

As others have said im glad to see you have mellowed :2thumb:

Im glad you are also looking at other scorps, LQs are boring (well i think so) and i much prefer our jacks etc. Much prettier and can be kept communally.


----------



## davieboi (Jul 17, 2008)

hermenaught said:


> Yes, i have been and will be reading lots more of the boards.
> Thanks for the advice. And @ DavieBoi too, thanks. I Do realise that my interest in LQ's is somewhat passe` and must rile some folk as it IS, quite admittedly, based on their danger status. That said, i really dont think it is, on it own, a bad thing to be attracted to, provided of course, your not a muppet! I do sports every day that could result in injury, paralysis and even death, there are lots of reasons i do them but i know the risks and i am choosy about the ones i take. Dangerous creatures have their allure, denying that and keeping them is more dangerious IMHO than admitting it and keeping them. I have been reading over the boards for a while now and I think the irrational attacks on would be keepers of hot species is counter productive. Certainly in my case, there is plenty of other attractions to scorpions that can be stimulated by friendly discussion and the generous sharing of knowledge. On the other hand, anyone who tells me i cant or shouldn't do something, is feuling a quite irrational desire on my part to prove the critics wrong by safely caring for a species that i might not otherwise have opted for....... definelty not a character trait i am proud of, but non-the-less, one i share with many!
> 
> On the subject of Androctonus australis. I had looked at it, but since the potency was almost as high as with LQ, it seemed to make more sence to just get an LQ. Whats the point in the risk to say that your keeping the second most potent scorpion. Its a bit like spending shed loads of cash on a 911 porsche that is a bit slower than another, equally expensive 911 porsche. The aggression of the species is only really relevent in my eyes as it relates to the behavious that can be watched. i.e... i think they will pose more, attack their food and hide less. Is this is a miss-apprehension?
> ...


 i actually just thought it would be good to keep for a month or so as its alot of dosh for a scorp:lol2:


----------



## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

Muze said:


> As others have said im glad to see you have mellowed :2thumb:
> 
> Im glad you are also looking at other scorps, *LQs are boring (well i think so)* and i much prefer our jacks etc. Much prettier and can be kept communally.


So do i they are boring they are not very active until the evening during the day they park there butts under the hide and dont come out, so as a display scorpion not a very good one.

Also this is taken from your other LQ topic

*I wouldnt want a scorpion that was too shy, or hid all the time. *

You have picked the wrong scorpion here because thats what they do, hence the aggression as they are nervous and shy


----------



## ReptileSeeker (May 14, 2008)

You can keep LQs in the same enclosure. I've had 6 living together at one time. Just make sure that the enclosure is large with lots of hiding places. Generally LQ's are tolerant of each other. I initially had problems for the first two weeks with them scrapping over crickets but they settled down fast. 

They are nowhere near as aggressive as fattails which should always been isolated. LQ's are really easy to look after, they are predictable and hardy but quick. Their speed was never really a problem for me, it's not like they can bolt out of the enclosue and jump around the place like some of my tarantulas can. As I said they are easy to look after just use common sense. A general desert setup does the fine just be prepared to break up the few fights they have when introducing them, if they are related this might calm them down more. 

If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask, I think steveyruss on the forums also keeps LQ's, he seems to know a lot about this species, you can message him with questions too I'm sure. I just want to say that caution is needed with any species DWA or no DWA but some of the sensationalism spouted about this species venom is hyperbole. 

Oh and LQ's are very active for a scorpion, they are not a pet rock like emps, I see them running around a lot especially at night they never seem to stop.


----------



## steveyruss (Feb 19, 2008)

Just to echo Reptileseeker here it has been well documented that Leiurus Quinquestriatus have successfully been kept in communal setups quite frequently. As with all communal setups of course there is always risks involved especially as they are not social animals. I've tried to minimize these risks and have yet to have a fatality. I'm sure there are others out there whom will tell you differently. All keepers have different methods and husbandary techniques and people need to respect that instead of getting snobby about it. The best experience you are going to get is for you to go out try it yourself while abiding the law. 

Remember when creating the setup to wet the sand down, pack it and allow it to dry to allow them to burrow. I tend to provide no more than 5" of substrait. In my experience if you add more you will rarely see them and just hear them scuttling about at night. Personally I don't see the point in seperating the viv into segments to avoid contact, it seems a lot of faffing about since you will have to double tank them anyway, you may as well house them together or not at all. Getting a DWA will not be difficult at all if you have the safety procedures in place to satisfy the council, even so called experts have very limited knowledge on scorpions let alone the government hence why loads of hots get through customs each year illegally with nothing said.

As for Leiurus Quinquestriatus venom drop for drop it is more potent than a King Cobra's. However facts like this can be taken completely out of context. In no way shape or form does this make the scorpion more deadly than the King Cobra since they inject only a tiny amount compared to the snakes bucket loads. I have never heard of a case where a healthy adult has died from a sting unless they were allergic. A vast majority of stings are localised pain only. I challenge anyone prove me wrong there.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

steveyruss said:


> Just to echo Reptileseeker here it has been well documented that Leiurus Quinquestriatus have successfully been kept in communal setups quite frequently. As with all communal setups of course there is always risks involved especially as *they are not social animals*. I've tried to minimize these risks and have yet to have a fatality. I'm sure there are others out there whom will tell you differently. All keepers have different methods and husbandary techniques and people need to respect that instead of getting snobby about it. The best experience you are going to get is for you to go out try it yourself while abiding the law.
> 
> Remember when creating the setup to wet the sand down, pack it and allow it to dry to allow them to burrow. I tend to provide no more than 5" of substrait. In my experience if you add more you will rarely see them and just hear them scuttling about at night. Personally I don't see the point in seperating the viv into segments to avoid contact, it seems a lot of faffing about since you will have to double tank them anyway, you may as well house them together or not at all. Getting a DWA will not be difficult at all if you have the safety procedures in place to satisfy the council, even so called experts have very limited knowledge on scorpions let alone the government hence why loads of hots get through customs each year illegally with nothing said.
> 
> As for Leiurus Quinquestriatus venom drop for drop it is more potent than a King Cobra's. However facts like this can be taken completely out of context. In no way shape or form does this make the scorpion more deadly than the King Cobra since they inject only a tiny amount compared to the snakes bucket loads. I have never heard of a case where a healthy adult has died from a sting unless they were allergic. A vast majority of stings are localised pain only. I challenge anyone prove me wrong there.


Then why stress them and keep them communally? In the end you would only be keeping them communally to satisfy your own needs.

That's not me being snobby, far from it...it's concern for animals wellbeing


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

steveyruss said:


> Remember when creating the setup to wet the sand down, pack it and allow it to dry to allow them to burrow. I tend to provide no more than 5" of substrait. In my experience if you add more you will rarely see them and just hear them scuttling about at night.


I had allowed 6" in my plans but will reduce to 5" as advised as this gives more safety space between the inner lid and the top of the tanks topography (the highest points will be chunks of sandstone). Do you think they will go for a sub-terranian cave in the sandstone against the glass for day time cooling? Or is trying to arrange accomodation where they are visable an excersie in futility?



steveyruss said:


> you will have to double tank them anyway,


yea... i was made aware of this. I can see the sense in it too given the possibility of breakage, however slim. My plans already include double lidding of course, so I had already thought about obvious cock ups like leaving the lid off. Is a double tank a must have too?



steveyruss said:


> Getting a DWA will not be difficult at all if you have the safety procedures in place to satisfy the council


I was on the phone to the environment agency again today, it seems there are no specific procedures in place and its prooving difficult to get hold of the right person who actually knows in any detail exactly what procedures are expected. It seems they are happy to get round the table about the whole thing (me, the vet and the agent responsible) prior to my making the application. This was my suggestion as Im not shelling out in application and insurance just to be knocked back. So far they are being cool about it but i am pretty surprised at how unused to applications they are.

Thanks for the advice, very much appreciated. Its good to here positive things about LQ. I am not actually decided yet and sometimes lean toward the idea of a forest species when i here reports of really docile critters. At least then i can populate the viv with a tropical flora. That said, having looked at various species the prettiest is Tityus bahiensis, i think it hangs out in groups which is cool but its pretty poisonous and is quite small .... small creature in leavy place :-( ....... swing and roundabouts.


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

ReptileSeeker said:


> You can keep LQs in the same enclosure. I've had 6 living together at one time. Just make sure that the enclosure is large with lots of hiding places. Generally LQ's are tolerant of each other. I initially had problems for the first two weeks with them scrapping over crickets but they settled down fast.
> 
> They are nowhere near as aggressive as fattails which should always been isolated. LQ's are really easy to look after, they are predictable and hardy but quick. Their speed was never really a problem for me, it's not like they can bolt out of the enclosue and jump around the place like some of my tarantulas can. As I said they are easy to look after just use common sense. A general desert setup does the fine just be prepared to break up the few fights they have when introducing them, if they are related this might calm them down more.
> 
> Oh and LQ's are very active for a scorpion, they are not a pet rock like emps, I see them running around a lot especially at night they never seem to stop.


Thanks. Great to here that they dont just eat each other. The tank is 36" by 12". OK for 2 or 4? Is it better to keep females? Also, will they use sandstone cliffs, im dying to start carving?


----------



## hermenaught (Nov 3, 2009)

Muze said:


> As others have said im glad to see you have mellowed :2thumb:
> 
> Im glad you are also looking at other scorps, LQs are boring (well i think so) and i much prefer our jacks etc. Much prettier and can be kept communally.



Im not generally that jaggy. I was actually always looking at other scorps, but the thread relating to reasons for and against LQ's and alternatives didnt get any replys.


----------



## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

i haven't been bothered to read all the pages lol so pardon me if i repeat something...
but a massive tank for two scorps...you may rarely if ever see them.
they won't really appreciate it all that much either, though you may see a little patrolling with black light if you're up late enough.
dunno i just think smaller is easier to manage and better for observation.
it's a lovely species...granted dangerous, but you've thought of that.

i would suggest for the sake of experience, it may be cheaper and easier to get some non DWA ones. even P imperator if kept at a decent temperature will entertain you!
i've got loads of species, and they're all fun. Smeringurus maesensis in particular is a psychotic little species that has a hilarious threat display, it involves sticking their bodies up as high as possible, tail straight up, and running round randomly! it's very cute and feisty!
Vaejovidae in particular have a rather...angular, think clawed look, and great behaviour.
i'd recommend them...they are also alot cheaper!
LQ's are lovely, but maybe get some more showy, social species like Tityus, Babycurus and Centruroides (as i believe some have suggested) once you've sussed your license.
watch out for a few Tityus species, as they are parthenogenic, and before you know it you may have hundreds to dispose of to a small, very limited market. Tityus serralutus is one of them, if i spelled that right.

welcome to scorpion keeping, but i do suggest easy, cheaper ones first. it'll be maybe a little less gutting financially if you lose a few then during the learning phase, though sad for the animals of course.

in particular, i have a colony of 4 gigantic P imperator together, and they are alot of fun!


----------



## kyledawelsh (Mar 7, 2008)

only just stumbled across this thread love LQ's but being dwa cant have them (yet)

Really dont agree with what a few people say that dwa scorps are expensive though as i have seen many for sale online inc LQ's for alot less than you can get say emps or any other "normal" scorps 

Since this thread is a few months old now is there any update on ur dwal? also i'm in glasgow too so if you do get somethin a bit more special am comin over to see lol

Good luck mate


----------

