# dart frog advice



## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

ive already posted on the newbie forum but ive had no luck, thought it might do better on here. 
heres what i want to know

right im getting some of the yellow and black banded dart frogs. ive got a two foot fish tank that im going to use i was wondering if you could answer some questions.

do i need a water feature?

is a plastic terrestrial exo terra going to be better, more floor space

can i use pebbles instead of clay balls

any plants that you use that will look cool together

the lid ive heard that it needs to be badly ventilated

heating? do i need it, 24-25 bout what my house is anyway

wood can i use oak from outside if i treat it with heat and a bleach solution, is it going to go mouldy. if not wheres a good place i can get it i want it to be covered in lichen and stuff look really naturalistic, as i do the whole tank.

im going to make the backing out of bentonite clay and fix all the wood and plants in to that.

substrate is top soil wet enough? or should i use compost. im going to make it bio active, oak leaves, springtails, tropical woodlice.

really anyone who keeps these post what you have done, mayby some pics if you dont mind. ideas people!!


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Moved to get some sensible advice (hopefully). The rest of the answers have been lost when this was moved here.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

No need for a water feature. They can cause problems with cleaning , bacteria etc.

I dont think that a plastic Exoterra will give you more floor space than a 2 foot aquarium. The problem with an aquarium is lack of air flow. You will get condensation on the sides of the glass and possibly stagnant air.

You can use pebbles instead of clay balls. However clay balls are lighter and will not float if kept damp. They will only float if you put more water in there than clay balls. Be sensible with it, its nothing to worry about.

There are lots of plants to use look at the threads on here. Smaall ficus, Begonias, small Orchids etc.

As a rule you will not need to heat the vivarium if your house is that temperature. Think about lighting. Lots of people use high powered LEDs for the plants. You can also use U.V.B. but thats a different conversation.

You can use oak from the woods as long as you have permission. The wood will rot over time or use one of the aquarium woods or cork bark. They will last longer.

I have never used clay. I have heard that it either cracks if dry or disintegrates in time. There are plenty of threads on here for backgrounds of different types. I have used both Gorilla Glue with coir and Tree Fern. Both have pros and cons.

Most people use Eco Earth (coir) or oak/magnolia leaves as a substrate.


There are some pointers, I am sure others will add to this.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

thanks ive heard of the air flow thing and im going to get a couple fans in the top get the air flow going. ill have a look at plants ive got a few today from the person im getting the frogs from. done a nice bit of research on most of the questions i asked and i think im going to use a expanding foam backing, stick some wood and things i can find along with some plant pots into it. thought the water feature sounded like alot of hassle. 

led lighting can that be say the stick on ones you can get at say asda, the jml ones?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

To be honest you`d be a lot better off if you got a proper viv rather than a fish tank.
As Colin has tried to explain they do have issues which are not always easy to resolve.
If money is a problem there are always s/h exo terras to be found on places like gumtree and other similar sites.
You and your frogs would be better for it.
I have no idea which leds you are looking at but you will get better results by just buying an Arcadia Jungle Dawn.
It works, end of, no ifs, buts or maybe`s.


Mike


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> To be honest you`d be a lot better off if you got a proper viv rather than a fish tank.
> As Colin has tried to explain they do have issues which are not always easy to resolve.
> If money is a problem there are always s/h exo terras to be found on places like gumtree and other similar sites.
> You and your frogs would be better for it.
> ...


ill have a look, its not a cash flow problem just what i had.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

so UV? the person i am getting them off is a professor at my university, he said that the frogs them selves dont need it, he has done studies into it. now if the plant ect are going to do better than i will but the leds give more light (i think) and there indestructible from my experience, not had any problems with them blowing before, as well as them being cheap. is either good? ive heard i need atleast 5/half thousand kelvin for the plants to thrive. should i use both?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Ultra violet light will not have any benefit to your plants. If you think about it plants are grown in glasshouses and glass filters out ultraviolet. Whether you wish to provide it for your frogs is for you to decide. Some people do and some dont. If you supplement their food then it is not always necessary.

Mike was talking about high powered LEDs which are specifically for plant growth.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I agree with Colin has said above.
And I also believe that UV isn't needed in the viv.
The frogs should be getting all the supplements they need by dusting the flies at feeding time.
If money isn't the issue where the tank is concerned then you should definitely consider a proper viv.
It will be so much easier for you to work on and for maintenance and also for mounting lights.
As Colin said the jungle dawn is all about the plants.
I've got 10 of them running here and so far have had no issues and the plants are going nuts under them.
I have other leds running which I am now considering doing away with.


Mike


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

ok so a jungle dawn is looking to be the the best. i will have a look at the leds as well. 

supplements: i was going to do nutrobal once a week, then calcium for the others. ive heard that a viv A supplement can be used once a month, i know what the others are for, whats the vit A? is it important?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I don't think you'd regret the jungle dawn.
For dusting powder I think your better off with repashy calcium plus as it has everything you need Inc vit A.
Is there any benefits from adding extra vit A?
I've no idea as I don't do it.
Also I feed every day and dust every day.


Mike


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> I don't think you'd regret the jungle dawn.
> For dusting powder I think your better off with repashy calcium plus as it has everything you need Inc vit A.
> Is there any benefits from adding extra vit A?
> I've no idea as I don't do it.
> ...


i plan to dust every time, i do for my other herps, you can overdo vit d with other things that why i keep the nutrobal to once a week, not sure if its the same with frogs, can cause calcium od. ill look for repashy. if the jungle dawns are tried and tested then sounds like the best thing to do, although i am still going to look at led weight up the pros and cons. i heard about the vit A on a youtube vid, if its not needed i wont, its in nutrobal anyway.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

The repashy is formulated as a daily dust,you can't go wrong with it . The extra viv A can help with embryonic development many of us supplement once every two weeks no more there is a risk of overdose. Many of our feeders don't have enough vit A in them,so we add in a little extra. We use it the results speak for them selves,some don't they still get good results...no right way to keep a dart,just the best way for you

Stu


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> The repashy is formulated as a daily dust,you can't go wrong with it . The extra viv A can help with embryonic development many of us supplement once every two weeks no more there is a risk of overdose. Many of our feeders don't have enough vit A in them,so we add in a little extra. We use it the results speak for them selves,some don't they still get good results...no right way to keep a dart,just the best way for you
> 
> Stu


show me which repashy i want, that ok? attach a link. i do plan to breed so a vit A supplement might be a good idea.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

This is the one you need.
http://www.repashy.co.uk/lilly-exotics/calcium-plus
I would use this instead of the Nutrobal for your frogs.
When I started I was using the same but after having problems with deformed froglets I switched to Repashy and it has almost completely cured the problems.
By that I mean that I`m getting about one in a hundred with a problem, so maybe that's where the extra dosage of Vit A might come in, who knows.


Mike


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> This is the one you need.
> http://www.repashy.co.uk/lilly-exotics/calcium-plus
> I would use this instead of the Nutrobal for your frogs.
> When I started I was using the same but after having problems with deformed froglets I switched to Repashy and it has almost completely cured the problems.
> ...


for a tenna, be best to especially with what your saying. cant go wrong with this stuff then, no others needed?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It took me a while to be converted so I`m not just saying it`s good stuff.
There are other things you can use to supplement it but as I don`t yet use these extras I`m better to let others say what they use and why.
I think Stu uses Superpig so maybe he can chuck in his tuppence worth here.


Mike


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

the wood from outside: ive done this before in insect enclosures and the wood went hairy very quickly but the ventilation wasnt very good. is this going to happen in with the frogs? or having good ventilation and good air flow going to stop this?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

For frogs you have to be VERY careful with using wood from outside because of disease.
Another poster as you may have noticed was using moss from his pond and now faces losing all his frogs and having to strip his vivs down because it looks like he might have got Chytrid into his collection.
This is deadly to frogs so great care is needed.
I prefer to buy from a reputable shop where the wood should be safe to use.


Mike


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> For frogs you have to be VERY careful with using wood from outside because of disease.
> Another poster as you may have noticed was using moss from his pond and now faces losing all his frogs and having to strip his vivs down because it looks like he might have got Chytrid into his collection.
> This is deadly to frogs so great care is needed.
> I prefer to buy from a reputable shop where the wood should be safe to use.
> ...


so theres no way of treating the wood against chytrid fungus? i have had a number of people tell me wood from outside is ok. is it just when its been treated? i would like to get it from a shop but getting the wood i want(not so much for these) for my whites tree frogs has been a bit of trouble. i dont just want a flat bit with one stick poking out i want tree like bit with lots of branches. i have collected a bit that i really like and i would hate to not be able to use it cos it is so cool and i think it would benefit the frogs. massively. i would rather buy a treated piece from a shop but i want it be like a tree. could i seal it with say yacht varnish?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

There maybe is a way to treat it just in case.
Maybe Colin could chip in with some info.
I seem to remember you can spray the wood down with F10 disinfectant to neutralise the fungus.
Check out the link I posted about Chytrid on the thread about dart frogs dying as there is info there that should help.


Mike


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I am not sure that F10 will kill fungus. 

Are we talking any fungus or Chytrid ? Heating the wood will kill Chytrid. The temperature has to be 30c ( or higher) I believe. This depends on whether your partner/mother will allow you to use the microwave or oven . As Mike says some bogwood or Mopani wood from an aquatics shop always looks good.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

colinm said:


> I am not sure that F10 will kill fungus.
> 
> Are we talking any fungus or Chytrid ? Heating the wood will kill Chytrid. The temperature has to be 30c ( or higher) I believe. This depends on whether your partner/mother will allow you to use the microwave or oven . As Mike says some bogwood or Mopani wood from an aquatics shop always looks good.


any and all badies that i can put in my tanks. i think one of the main problems i have is that i live in cornwall and there are basically no herps shops here that cater for this stuff, they cater for cornsnakes a beardies but nothing else really. for the dart frogs i think i can just get a piece from a aquarist shop but as for my whites they need a bit more than just a stick or a piece of bog wood. i know i need to clean the wood with a bleach solution, heat it over 100c and then maybe freeze it. i will most certainly be careful with it and i wont be taking things like moss and stuff that can harbor things. im thinking of varnishing the wood, stop it rotting and being able to release badies into my tanks.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

If you collect wood only from >1m above the ground and from a location with no amphibians, you practically eliminate the risk of bringing in chytrid. Your next biggest problem, IMO, is slugs! Hang it, heat it, dry it, don't be in any rush. You should then be safe without needing to resort to disinfectants or varnish. I have never and will never use either on stuff to go in vivs. Just the way I do it.

If you're lucky enough to have access to areas like this for collection, you can keep it really simple. On the other hand, I wouldn't be happy using wood from a 'risky' environment even after all of the steaming and disinfecting in the world! 

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Buddy mike is very wise to urge caution . I use wood from the wild a lot. most of it hasn't touched the ground,most of our phibs don't climb,I let it dry out in wind and rain for months,but there is all ways that risk. Some folks bake it,if a pot is big enough boil it,personally I wouldn't use varnish,it will look weird , moss and liverworts growing on wood look well natural,it might get in the way of that natural aging process. all of this there is still a tiny risk,probably the only sure way is pressure cooker. But we have to be realistic,wood in a shop can have had a mouse pee on it.... be cautious buddy.

Bro 99% good frogllets...I believe that my results are too good to be true,and that Allen repashy is one damn clever guy,more than a little of my luck comes from those products......nuff said


We use a rotation of 3 vit dusts,very occassionaly superpig as a dust,but i also use it with a product called bug burger,Mike I forgot ,shaz also wacks a bit in the FF media. the SP is high in carroteniods,as well as the colour effects there may be health benefits too.

So i'm getting them into the frogs via different simple routes through dijective tracts as well as the direct dust on flies.  the superpig is mixed into the bugburger at a ratio of 5% the feeders in viv much it,the ff in viv lay eggs on it,the frogs get their caorrots through them....and some of our frogs have well changed colour,i've got red heads,that didn't have a red head and now have ,yellow pums turn orange...sometimes,something is afoot:lol2:

keep ya vits in the frigde use within six months,DO NOT USE vit A more than 2 times per month:2thumb: 

Don't breed to many frogs at first mate,unless you are seriously prepared from a keepers point of view(FOOD N SPACE). Probably once you get to the joy of breeding the biggest help I could share is making sure your frogs get lots of time when they are not breeding. Mum froggies need time to build all those nutrients to make good eggs. The stronger that egg the stronger that tad . All the vits in the world can't change nature.

Stu 

PS,mate I wrote this late last night the thread has moved on a bit but still might be useful you have some good froggers down in cornwall. It's worth you speaking to our mate Joe,he's a fantastic guy,if there is anywhere to get dart stuff he'll know,I think there is someone at carnondowns?)


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> Buddy mike is very wise to urge caution . I use wood from the wild a lot. most of it hasn't touched the ground,most of our phibs don't climb,I let it dry out in wind and rain for months,but there is all ways that risk. Some folks bake it,if a pot is big enough boil it,personally I wouldn't use varnish,it will look weird , moss and liverworts growing on wood look well natural,it might get in the way of that natural aging process. all of this there is still a tiny risk,probably the only sure way is pressure cooker. But we have to be realistic,wood in a shop can have had a mouse pee on it.... be cautious buddy.
> 
> Bro 99% good frogllets...I believe that my results are too good to be true,and that Allen repashy is one damn clever guy,more than a little of my luck comes from those products......nuff said
> 
> ...


i know carnon downs, ill have a chat with them. well i think i am just going to try my best to treat the wood, unless i can find a good bit at herp shops. i can put it on a rayburn at my mums for a month should work. ive got loads and loads of things i can keep froglets in ive got tanks coming out of the wazzoo. the colour pigment thing i have been working with zoos that use this stuff and they have yellow and black mum and dad darts, with orange and black babies that have been given the stuff. there is a massive change in colour when using the colour pigments, black is blacker and the yellow is orange! i am planning to use that stuff, i just need to find somewhere to get it from. are you supposed to keep vit dust in the fridge i dnt know that, does it mean i have to throw all my vits away?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

repashy.co.uk

The fridge just extends vit life/helps prevent them decaying. The actual shelf life is a year I believe,I shouldn't think you will need to bin your vits at all they should be fresh enough ,but obviously I don't have access to the dates on your vits pots. Mate there will be lots of folks whom just keep vits in the house,i'm pushing best practice here, as always, trying to get that little bit better for my and your frogs.

Stu


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> repashy.co.uk
> 
> The fridge just extends vit life/helps prevent them decaying. The actual shelf life is a year I believe,I shouldn't think you will need to bin your vits at all they should be fresh enough ,but obviously I don't have access to the dates on your vits pots. Mate there will be lots of folks whom just keep vits in the house,i'm pushing best practice here, as always, trying to get that little bit better for my and your frogs.
> 
> Stu


Ha never knew that learn new things every day on this site. After I posted I saw the shelf life on the bottom goo few year on some of them. I new they needed to be re newed but...

ha ill start keeping mine in the fridge:2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

keep the old vits....use them if you ever get mites on the ff,dusting the ff and sieving as one makes a new culture means the mites have a hard job hanging on to the ff,so one can get back to a clean culture this way,using the old dust won't hurt and saves you using your newer in date stuff which can be kept for the frogs

Stu


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