# Moss & leaf litter from outside



## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hi All,

What is everyones thoughts on using moss from outside in a dart frog viv?
I am in Kent and work in a unit which sits in 8 acres of old vintage orchard. Nothing has been sprayed or treated for at least the last 10 years for sure. We have some old corrugated metal and some real nice pillows of moss are growing on them which look great. Can I use them or is there any way of making it safe to use? 

Also, within the orchard are oak trees so I have collected a nice box full of brown leaves from them. I even shook and climbed the trees to make sure none have been in ground contact. Do you all wash and dry yours if you collect or use them straight from the tree?

I'm stuck between being bio-active and trying to sterilise them which is counter productive within bio active if that makes sense?

All views welcomed please,

Marc.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Marc
My worry is that dreaded Chytrid.
It is spreading around the country so it can make it a bit dodgy to put collected stuff in the viv.
There are ways to try and make things safe to use but as I don`t do it myself I can`t be sure.
Oak leaves, people usually give them a good wash and then microwave them for a couple of minutes to kill things off, but that's not what you want is it.
The main rule would be to use things that have not been on the ground, so if possible do your collecting from higher up.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> Hi Marc
> My worry is that dreaded Chytrid.
> It is spreading around the country so it can make it a bit dodgy to put collected stuff in the viv.
> There are ways to try and make things safe to use but as I don`t do it myself I can`t be sure.
> ...


Hi Mike,

Pretty much what I thought but thought I'd ask. I'll leave the mosses to look nice where they are. All of the Oak leaves have been collected above 1m so hopefully they should be ok, as much as I want to stay as bio as possible I want the risk to be as close to zero as possible as well so I think i'm going to wash and zapp them. 

Thanks for your reply,

Marc.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

Yikes .. I thought the Chytrid problem was just a 'rainforest' issue ... So it's prevalent in the UK now ??

Is there any danger to snakes ?? 
Why is it safer to get material from high up the floor ?

I'm always collecting pieces of bark from around us but I get clumps of moss ( including rout system ) from higher up on the sides where the dogs can't urinate 

I only keep snakes not amphibians although I do have one Axolotl .


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Zincubus said:


> Yikes .. I thought the Chytrid problem was just a 'rainforest' issue ... So it's prevalent in the UK now ??
> 
> Is there any danger to snakes ??
> Why is it safer to get material from high up the floor ?
> ...


Unfortunately it`s all over the planet now.
Everyone speaks about it as being in the rainforest because of how it`s wiping out frogs there, in their natural home.
There are a lot of areas in the UK free from it but I can`t see that lasting for long.
I may stand to be corrected here but I think it`s been found in the New Forrest area.
There are several areas around the UK, mostly in England for now.
The reason people are told to collect from higher up is because of the risk of infection being spread around by amphibians as they wander across the country.
If you pick up a branch that's been on the ground, or a bag of leaves, and unknown to you there was an infected frog crawled over them the day before, you`ll now be bringing it home to put in your viv.
To date it only affects amphibians so your snakes should be fine, but I`m not so sure about the axolotl.
If you pick up infected things you then have the fungus spores on your hands, or clothing, or even on your feet, which can then be spread into your collection.
I have a pond outside which is heaving with frogs, but I don`t touch them and don`t handle anything to do with the pond unless completely necessary, just in case, and we don`t have chytrid here, but you just can`t ever be sure.


Mike


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> Unfortunately it`s all over the planet now.
> Everyone speaks about it as being in the rainforest because of how it`s wiping out frogs there, in their natural home.
> There are a lot of areas in the UK free from it but I can`t see that lasting for long.
> I may stand to be corrected here but I think it`s been found in the New Forrest area.
> ...




Well thanks for the heads-up ...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Actually being a harbinger of doom I worry more about the uk strain of RV...ranavirus more,we can tread Bd but RV,I don't think so,again I'll stand corrected. But yeah we do have some nasties out there and I guess we might also see the strain of chytrid that is affecting Salamanders not so far away in EU at some point,but I hope we don't.

Marc,I use native(wild whatever) leaves, wood, some plants, leaf litter ,water, aldercones wild grub and god knows what else, mate there is a risk,there has to be a risk when one puts anything in a viv that hasn't been sterilized completely. Hmm sterilized so boiling means we are cool huh,not so much,coccidia oocysts have a chance of getting past that amongst other things. 

A mindset of oh I bought it at a shop it's safe is somewhat with question if one wants to go there. Does any shop handling phibs in this country sell tested amphibians??? What happens if the guy just picked out some phibs before picking up your wood as an incident to use to illustrate this. Please god don't anyone think I'm bashing shops,I'm not bought a good part of my collection from a shop.
But i'm a pragmatic guy who muses and reads and ponders and I'm also a guy that worked with rare breeds of poultry where stock came and went without QT and I have experience of some hard core diseases in that world,some of which brought me to my knees at times.

Would it be silly to worry about BD or RV in the wild,when one hasn't tested the frogs in the viv one brought home and did no QT on? Where would one consider the biggest risk to be ,the wild with fairly stable populations or a shop where a constant stream of amphibia from all over the world come and go wild imports captive breed are vivs sterilized between each knew occupant? This is simple percentages mate again I'll state nothing against the shops just simple logic.

Marc , I'll repeat 'cause it's webland folks get all uppity and twist stuff I'm not knocking the shops,responsibility is with the keeper, the buyer to check treat or do nowt. If the shops did impliment all QT protocols here, we would take a massive hit on price as this would have to be reflected on the price of each amphibian sold. Simply put It's our bag to find out, impliment QT, etc.

Marc natural england or the environment agency might be able to provide help where RV or BD are found here. 

I tend to collect off the ground, or where phibs are not so oft found. I utterly understand your concerns and the flip side,I was you a few years back, asking the same Q's . 

Mate amphibia didn't develop in a sterile world,this has always been my mindset they shouldn't be in a situation where no low level challenges exist as if they are kept in a sterile niche could that compromise the immune system ?

Our phibs have paracites in the wild,they have lived with them for millenia :worms are bad right, we should deworm, but does a low level infestation actually impact the frog's health or stranger still might this paracite help mr froggie on his way,we don't really know bro,we do know when froggie is stressed thing go out of balance and then those same worms can become an issue.

Nowt is black and white mate,we simply don't know enough,we do our best.

My real world senario is this,leaves up a tree can be contaminated,leaves in a shop same as, drying them and leaving for an extended period might be as good as boiling or microwaving. The two things I have imported to a viv from wild stuff and not wanting to nuke everything when I started are nemerteans and snails, so now pretty much all get's nuked(microwave 15mins all damp so steam does the sterilizing). 

Marc it's hard this,I feel you want to achieve exactly what I did,ha there is mention on my room thread of me individually washing by hand each leaf so I could try to keep micro fauna but no snails or nems, man I do some mad things. It's a tricky game mate,one I don't in anyway feel I've got to the bottom of. 

I'm just pragmatic and try to be careful, but that doesn't rule out collecting from nature. There is a whole raft of potential probs mate most will never happen,but I do know folks who have lost a collection. Main thing I wanted to do here though was go a little left field and make you think a bit by asking some questions for you to put answers to 

take care kiddo

Stu


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Stu, thanks for the reply mate.

A lot of the issues you mention I have considered.

Why do I want to spend in excess of £10 on 100 dried oak leaves online when I have several million 10 meters from my door? How do I know they have done anything to them that I can't achieve with a little consideration and hard work?
I considered boiling the hell out of them but surely this releases all the tanins within the leaf which help stop the quick breakdown. I do like the idea of microwaving them damp though, I think this may be the way to go.

I know there are risks but want to minimise them as much as I can and I also know a lot is trial and error (and god don't I know that now I am already setting up my second tank as I am no longer happy with the 1st). My work also happens to be neighbours with the environment agency so a two minute walk sees me on their front door so I think a little wander is in the offing.

Thanks for all of the musings, it's nice to know others have had the same thoughts and problems,

Marc.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wingnut2711 said:


> Stu, thanks for the reply mate.
> 
> A lot of the issues you mention I have considered.
> 
> ...


Hey mate,so basically I wrote that for nothing:gasp::Na_Na_Na_Na:LMAO sorry kiddo as completely cream crackered as I am it's still hard not to try to make someone smile.:2thumb:

Yeah I thought you'ld have pondered much of this mate, the chucks/dux haunt my at times,hard stuff bro.

The dried leaves left a goodly while last longest Marc,I have a few mm of water at the bottom of the damp micro waved leaved leaves and we also boil bigger quantities. Mate on the nuking be thorough a great mate had nemerteans get past a few mins,that's my reason for saying 15mins


Buddy we will be nailing leaves by the sack full,we use a huge quantity I'm constantly replenishing someone these are good un's to hunt: oak obviously,magnolia both the evergreen grandiflora and the deciduous. Clematis armandii is a corker it's the evergreen one that flowers early,these are my staples. Marc, Ron used to use bamboo and sweet chestnut so they might be worthy of consideration. 
Marc we worked at an aboretum for a while,some of the cultivars of the above can be quite special,I have an oak bigger than your hand and thick as hell lasts ages as do the grandiflora.

Marc it's good to have a variety that break down over different periods of time I feel almost a bit more natural.

I just really wanted to open this up a bit mate,I repeat I have nowt against shops utterly nothing I think our more specialist phib shops do us a great service and I support them. But by the same token I made a frogroom by saving pennies all ways,I had to,buying leaves is nutz in my world. But I'm a country guy not a townie and am hugely fortunate to have some cool contacts,it's much easier for me than most . 

Oh Marc one more thing to consider in the cleaning up stakes the humble pressure cooker if one really want to nail as much as poss,then may I suggest this,I haven't actually used it,but obviously these babies run hot. 

Marc I actually don't know about here,I'd imagine it's the same as America. Govs have protocols to stop pathogens moving around the planet. So when wood destined for vivs is brought into the states,it gets autoclaved,(pressure cooked),it has to be another option for you to consider.

Finally although this debate is simply leaves,it touches on pathogens paracites etc, i'd suggest reading the yank sites on Qt. Quarantine is not much used here with phibs, detailed QT with stages and testing almost unheard of. I do a form of, Marc: isolation and observation, before vivs. with some exceptions driven fundamentally by personal experience. I think this interlocking subject might be very interesting to you bro.


May I be so bold to say having a handle on what you are really wanting to keep out of a viv is a damn good start. You probably have that done to kiddo,but hey worth a punt

Take care kiddo

Stu


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> Hey mate,so basically I wrote that for nothing:gasp::Na_Na_Na_Na:LMAO sorry kiddo as completely cream crackered as I am it's still hard not to try to make someone smile.:2thumb:
> 
> Yeah I thought you'ld have pondered much of this mate, the chucks/dux haunt my at times,hard stuff bro.
> 
> ...


Hi Stu,

I know you are only joking but apologies if I came across dismissive. When I say I have considered all of what you said I didn't mean I had the answers, just the questions. 90% of any knowledge I currently have on the whole darts subject is kindly donated by yourself, Mike and a few others and the last thing i'd want to do is come across a know all.

At the moment I only have my 1 pair of darts so I'm not looking at huge quantities and my savings are minimal to you but i've always been one to do as much as I can for myself and if I can learn techniques to do that I will. I have good access to sweet chestnut and bamboo so I can add some of these into the mix. The nice lady at the Environment Agency is going to do some digging for me to let me know the threats which will open up some more reading I am sure. I am currently studying with the OU so have access to a huge library of scientific papers on parasites so hopefully I can locate some relevant papers.

Thanks for your post again mate, always something thought provoking in them that get the grey matter swirling,

All the best bud,

Marc.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wingnut2711 said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> I know you are only joking but apologies if I came across dismissive. When I say I have considered all of what you said I didn't mean I had the answers, just the questions. 90% of any knowledge I currently have on the whole darts subject is kindly donated by yourself, Mike and a few others and the last thing i'd want to do is come across a know all.
> 
> ...


Ahh bro no not dissmissive at all,just me larking around,never crossed my mind mate that in any way you were being like that,simply don't be daft. 


Marc I'm very serious about trying my best for these but mate learning should be fun it's our hobby,I am just having a crack . Hmm as far as know it all me neither bro,so much still to learn i'm only 4 1/2 years in mate that is little in the big scheme. I guess knowing how little I know is why I'll refer to others so oft.
Sorry mate sometimes my humour doesn't get out in webland you can't see the smile behind, the words my apologies. I'm like this in the real world mate incredibly serious but constantly taking the mick and having a laugh life's too short mate to not be smiling

Marc all that matters to me is new keepers get off to a half decent start,occassionally a keeper comes along who wants to dig a bit deeper tis very evident mate that you are one of them,so cheers for the above. I'd rather someone else with way more knowledge payed this role really mate. I'm not even comfy with folks calling it advice. It's just a bit of help 

But don't worry mate there is nowt here I even thought amiss,just an old inarticulate fool larking around (me) :whistling2:

take care buddy

Stu


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Thought I'd post a little update. I popped to the environment agency and had a cuppa and chat with regards to my local area and amphibian diseases. 

They managed to get a local expert to speak to me who informed me the nearest pocket of Chytrid is in Canterbury which is about 20 miles away and the last case of ranavirus was in Medway which is 10 miles-ish away. Still a bit close for comfort. 

They also raised an interesting point about the responsibility to amphibian keepers. He explained we are all concerned about keeping the nasties out of our vivs but wished as much thought went into what happens to the nasties we potentially have IN our vivs. He said he would recommend all waste in the form of old moss, wood, bark etc etc was incinerated as they pose a real risk of disease introduction to an area. Don't get me wrong he wasn't preaching but said it in such a way I couldn't help but agree. 

I have wash and microwaved my leaves, if anything has survived that I will be impressed. I will be giving the moss a miss. All in all an interesting subject to confront even if the answers are a bit vague when you get there. 

Marc.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Always been my biggest fear Marc being responsible for something getting loose from a viv of mine. He's perfectly correct to warn you and frankly I should have anyway. This isn't so much talked about here,but it was one of the first things I asked for advice about from the yanks.

Mate we have a wood burner anything solid wise from say a viv or a tub that has come into contact with my frogs goes in the burner. My advice was to do this or double bag and return to the waste stream,but I'm way happier burning and am fortunate to have this option,hey I get some hot water for free too.

The second biggy is water,this one I do very simply,I have a blue bucket in the bathroom,blue for bleach. I never use this for anything else ,it's the only blue bucket here. All waste (froggy) water goes in this bucket with an added quantity of bleach(domestos). When the water turns clear it goes down the loo and cleans that too.

Marc I guess just bunging waste water down the loo is enough ,but frankly this one is so important to me,and frankly should be to everyone here it's a 100% no risk senario I am looking for. 

We are amphibian keepers we are among the few whom keep these animals as pets and worry that they are facing the biggest global extinction since the dinosaurs. We know that we humans have spread Bd :if you dig you'll find Xenopus and pregnancy testing as a first call,naturally we pet keepers get blame,but the biggy have a dig for the numbers of frogs moved around for food frogs such as the american bullfrog I believe are like Xenopus they can carry ,but are not effected by Bd. The numbers are simply astounding mate unreal astounding.

I think i might be lonely on this one Marc, if one was to ask around the hobby,I find that deeply concerning,this should be among our first thoughts as we are the ones that care We actually care enough to spend our hard earned on keeping them in our glass boxes. We have responsibilities to the wild amphibians that live here that buck stops with us when we make a choice to keep a non native species. All of us.

The guy at the environment agency did you a great service mate I applaud him,Me I feel I've let you down because it's something I do without thought like making a culture. But here we have a real world senario where we can POTENTIALLY do damage to the very set of animals we care about and at the very least I should have mentioned this to you. 

There is no half measure for me Marc,this has to be 100% in efficacy and I'll say again with great seriousness this is our (amphibian keepers) responsibility to our natives

take care

Stu


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

soundstounite said:


> Always been my biggest fear Marc being responsible for something getting loose from a viv of mine. He's perfectly correct to warn you and frankly I should have anyway. This isn't so much talked about here,but it was one of the first things I asked for advice about from the yanks.
> 
> Mate we have a wood burner anything solid wise from say a viv or a tub that has come into contact with my frogs goes in the burner. My advice was to do this or double bag and return to the waste stream,but I'm way happier burning and am fortunate to have this option,hey I get some hot water for free too.
> 
> ...


Hi Stu,

I don't feel let down at all, all the time you have spent sharing your experience has been invaluable and it is much appreciated. 

This has come at a good time though. I am going to swap my pair of Tincs into their new abode in the next couple of weeks so rather than add the old bit into the composter as planned they can now find their way into the log burner. I'm really enjoying all of this extra info and although, with only 2 small frogs my waste is a minimum, I would hate to think I could contribute towards something detrimental to our natives.

Don't beat yourself up mate, i'm loving this hobby and part of that is down to you,

all the best,

Marc.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wingnut2711 said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> I don't feel let down at all, all the time you have spent sharing your experience has been invaluable and it is much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Cheers blue, lovely of ya thanks man ! Ahh it's so important Marc,it's one of those obvious staring one in the face things so easily overlooked,until someone raises it ,then the implications dawn . Marc I twigged this because I know GCN's live close,it just made the penny drop. 

But most don't I dare say it's really cool you raised it,hopefully other newer folks will read this ,it is important bro 

take care mate 

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Lol, as you know, Stu, I don't boil or sterilise *anything*- but I do always advocate collecting materials for amphibian set-ups* away* from areas of still water that may contain native phibs. Most of what I use in my tanks is collected from a mixed beech and sweet chestnut wood high up on the North Downs in Kent, without a pond in sight. :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Lol, as you know, Stu, I don't boil or sterilise *anything*- but I do always advocate collecting materials for amphibian set-ups* away* from areas of still water that may contain native phibs. Most of what I use in my tanks is collected from a mixed beech and sweet chestnut wood high up on the North Downs in Kent, without a pond in sight. :2thumb:


hey bro how ya doing? he he can't resist this:welcome::lol2:

Yeah Ron i'm grabbing more than leaves always will it's being careful and having a handle on potential nasties,no one right way to do this tis all about trying to find the right way the best way for each keepers,ha variables mate:whistling2: 


Now....about those leucs got some corkers soon:flrt:

take care mate

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> hey bro how ya doing? he he can't resist this:welcome::lol2:
> 
> Yeah Ron i'm grabbing more than leaves always will it's being careful and having a handle on potential nasties,no one right way to do this tis all about trying to find the right way the best way for each keepers,ha variables mate:whistling2:
> 
> ...


I'm good, mate, you? And no, I'm still not planning on getting darts anytime soon! :lol2:


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## MSID (May 13, 2010)

I use leaves, Oak and Sweet chestnut, and sterilise them with heat. I also use live moss, moss covered wood and plants without sterilising. I would think anybody who uses living materials in their set ups introduces microbes, I cannot see a way of completely sterilising these that would leave them alive. 

In the end it comes down to risk and what you can live with. I would be concerned about overly sterile set-ups and auto immune diseases, given research into these in humans. Disease is not just about a pathogen being present, often environmental factors are also involved.

Chytrid and RV are around, they may get into a set ups, I think our biggest responsibility is that they don't get out of them.

Mark


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

MSID said:


> I use leaves, Oak and Sweet chestnut, and sterilise them with heat. I also use live moss, moss covered wood and plants without sterilising. I would think anybody who uses living materials in their set ups introduces microbes, I cannot see a way of completely sterilising these that would leave them alive.
> 
> In the end it comes down to risk and what you can live with. I would be concerned about overly sterile set-ups and auto immune diseases, given research into these in humans. Disease is not just about a pathogen being present, often environmental factors are also involved.
> 
> ...


AMEN !!

Stu

PS LMAO it took me how long to get that out i hate you:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2::lol2::lol2:

ha that reads really bitchy it's not I'm creased up writing it sorry Mark,I do hope you get this and are smiling great post mate,somehow I always end up writing a bloody essay


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

MSID said:


> I use leaves, Oak and Sweet chestnut, and sterilise them with heat. I also use live moss, moss covered wood and plants without sterilising. I would think anybody who uses living materials in their set ups introduces microbes, I cannot see a way of completely sterilising these that would leave them alive.
> 
> In the end it comes down to risk and what you can live with. I would be concerned about overly sterile set-ups and auto immune diseases, given research into these in humans. Disease is not just about a pathogen being present, often environmental factors are also involved.
> 
> ...


Very true! As I said, I always advocate collecting from areas AWAY from still water containing wild native amphibians- both chytrid and Ranovirus are only found near their hosts, but we have a *huge* responsibility not to introduce pathogens from our animals to the local ecosystem. I do find though, that most of the bacteria and fungi I introduce to my vivaria with leaflitter and leafmould are beneficial; just more additions to the 'clean-up crew'. :2thumb:
EDIT: On another note, Stu's very early advice to check collected material for large spiders and centipedes is something that I took on board and now pass on in any advice I give; they are just an extra snack for my mostly larger frogs, but they can be a real threat to tiny ones.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

In the meantime, I'm apparently being slagged off for advocating 'live' and collected materials on some other sites- even though I *do *suggest various safeguards. *This* is my caring face... :lol2:


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> In the meantime, I'm apparently being slagged off for advocating 'live' and collected materials on some other sites- even though I *do *suggest various safeguards. *This* is my caring face... :lol2:


Don't worry bud ...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> In the meantime, I'm apparently being slagged off for advocating 'live' and collected materials on some other sites- even though I *do *suggest various safeguards. *This* is my caring face... :lol2:


 Jees really:bash:? course phibs don't actually survive in the wild do they mate and they didn't survive in our care all those years back when we both had no choice but to collect stuff from the wild. Ahh Ron I dunno folks need to open their minds a bit,man it's not like you aren't sensible with the words of wisdom

just nuts reading this Ron
hey ho take care bro

Stu


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