# communal set up



## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

would it be possible to keep usa green tree frogs with green anoles and rough green snake and maybe brown anoles and grey treefrogs in a 5/6ftx3ftx2ft tank lxhxd?


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## derekthefrog=] (Mar 25, 2008)

yeah i think you can correct me if im wrong but i heard that the usa green tree frog and the gray tree frog need the same care i dont know about the snake and i have been advised not to keep brown and green anoles together .........again correct me if im wrong: victory:


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

ok then thanx mate =]
i have been told quite alot that green anoles usa treefrogs and rough green snakes can be kept together (all insectervorois) but just wanted to check
thanx
ash


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## derekthefrog=] (Mar 25, 2008)

kewl i hope it all goes well mate 
:no1:

good luck
liam


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## stubeanz (Mar 28, 2007)

personaly i wouldnt put them together
i have heard green and brown anoles will not get on, i have seen green treefrogs and anoles together but tbh mixed species will need a much larger viv than they would as seperate species, because they need to be far apart and im sure all the species you have mentioned wont have the same, humidity, temps feedimg patterns etc
so there would be undue stress on them
stu


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

stubeanz said:


> personaly i wouldnt put them together
> i have heard green and brown anoles will not get on, i have seen green treefrogs and anoles together but tbh mixed species will need a much larger viv than they would as seperate species, because they need to be far apart and im sure all the species you have mentioned wont have the same, humidity, temps feedimg patterns etc
> so there would be undue stress on them
> stu



agree 100% frogs should not be mixed, with each other or other species...

have told DEREKTHEFROG plenty of times about mixing... he does not listen to well and is not expiereinced enough to be giving out this kind of advice. just a heads up


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## elrond (Dec 18, 2007)

either have brown anoles or green anoles, dont mix those to together, mixing the other species is up to you, i wouldnt but thats me , its better to have 1 species togther, in that size you could have a nice group of green anoles, or a trio of whites, heavyly planted ,viv with a rain chamber system and have red eyed treefrogs?

up 2 you

Aaron


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

elrond said:


> either have brown anoles or green anoles, dont mix those to together, mixing the other species is up to you, i wouldnt but thats me , its better to have 1 species togther, in that size you could have a nice group of green anoles, or a trio of whites, heavyly planted ,viv with a rain chamber system and have red eyed treefrogs?
> 
> up 2 you
> 
> Aaron


 do you mean just red eyes.... not with whites?


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## elrond (Dec 18, 2007)

lol sry my bad yes ,just retf or just whites iam with you i never mix


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

elrond said:


> lol sry my bad yes ,just retf or just whites iam with you i never mix


:lol2::lol2::lol2: dont worry with your eyes and some of my spelling well get there!:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## elrond (Dec 18, 2007)

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

Aaron


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## Shoggy07 (May 22, 2007)

it will all kick off now
i personally keep grey tree frogs and green tree frogs together and have never encountered any problems, i also know o a few people who keep rough green snakes and green anoles together with the frogs succesfully, however most people advise against it because of the risk it carries
its all opinion really
i wud make your own mind up to be honest
if you think u have surplus requirements go for it
if in doubt just dont bother.


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

i would never mix species together..... but ..... i have heard these being mentioned as the exception.... thats why i asked this is because they encounter each other in the wild and require same conditions etc. and with a large tank as stated i thought this might be ok what i may do is keep them all seperate and make sure they all get used to the viv seperately before introducing them then put them with only meshing between and see reactions before introducing them specie by specie to see. and i understand defo not brown and green anoles together


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

sounds like it COULD be possible, but it is my opinion NOT to mix.... will be interested on how it goes...keep us posted.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Even if they require the same conditions, they may still be from opposite ends of the earth so will have different bacteria which has been known to cause problems. Im not sure about frogs but you do NOT mix reptiles together for this reason. Furthermore Anoles and frogs are bite sized snacks to snakes, there going to get killed.


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## exoticsandtropics (Mar 11, 2007)

yeah the first species listed should be fine together. they all require pretty much apart from the rough green snake. the same care. and all come from pretty much the same area. so should be fine.


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## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

As frogs and lizards are naturally afraid of snakes, i think this would be very stressful for them, even if the snake is not large enough to eat them.


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

rough green snakes are insectovorious they wouldnt eat the frogs and lizards, they are all from USA meet each other in the wild all the time.


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## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

ashrob said:


> rough green snakes are insectovorious they wouldnt eat the frogs and lizards, they are all from USA meet each other in the wild all the time.


Does that mean there natural instinct to be scared of snakes would stop? No. Do you honestly think they know if they snake is insectivorous or not, course not , they just get out the way because its natural instinct, they dont hang about and say " hang on think this one only eats insect's".:crazy:

Its called survival.


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

fair enough but they would realise after a while that he was not interested in them.... ive just seen it sugested on here before so asked about it


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

Anole's aggression + toxins in frog's skin + sensitivity of rough green snake = bad idea IMO.


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

Personally I think it depends on the experience and preference of the keeper and also the viv in question. Green Anoles and Brown Anoles should not be kept together ....but....anoles can be kept with some species of amphibians IF...The viv is big enough and arboreal, there are plenty of hiding places, cover, climbing places, you are an experienced and responsible keeper, the viv and animals are checked visually every day, the viv is checked manually every week, there is the correct amount of UV lighting (amphibians don't require UV but lizards do), the viv is correct for both species.

Many members of the forum are totally against mixing species of any kind, further information can be found here:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/35374-mixing-species-please-read.html

You should make up your own mind


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

BecciBoo said:


> there is the correct amount of UV lighting (amphibians don't require UV but lizards do), the viv is correct for both species.


this is not totaly true, all my frogs have U.V lighting and there is evidence that frogs benefit from it. it helps with bone formation and metabalism... 

the experience of the keeper is not going to change the way different species react to each other. a snake with a frog would not work with 100 years experience as frogs are part of a snakes food chain. i have seen green anoles in with tree frogs, but muchh space is needed.

IMHO it is a bad idea, but i cant make up peoples mind for them....

perhaps a sticky on a mixing topic, seem to be alot of them poping up.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

knighty said:


> this is not totaly true, all my frogs have U.V lighting and there is evidence that frogs benefit from it. it helps with bone formation and metabalism...
> 
> the experience of the keeper is not going to change the way different species react to each other. a snake with a frog would not work with 100 years experience as frogs are part of a snakes food chain. i have seen green anoles in with tree frogs, but muchh space is needed.
> 
> ...


Rough greens are insectovores (sp?)


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

yes but as mentioned before a frog would not know this and would see them as a predator, leading to stress.


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

knighty said:


> this is not totaly true, all my frogs have U.V lighting and there is evidence that frogs benefit from it. it helps with bone formation and metabalism...
> 
> the experience of the keeper is not going to change the way different species react to each other. a snake with a frog would not work with 100 years experience as frogs are part of a snakes food chain. i have seen green anoles in with tree frogs, but muchh space is needed.
> 
> ...



There is a sticky!!!!


BecciBoo said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/35374-mixing-species-please-read.html


All my amphibians have UV! and I wasn't at all suggesting that any breed of snake should be mixed with another species of animal...I said that Green Anoles could be mixed with some species of amphibians under certain conditions, if you actually bothered to read the whole of my post without jumping in to have a go! Happens far to much on this forum, people clearly arn't allowed an opinion, no matter what there experience is!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

you said in your post that amphibians dont need U.V, but now are saying that all yours do..

this happens to much, people being vague and taking everything as a dig. sorry if you have taken my comments the wrong way, lets just put a line under it and continue with the topic in hand.

sorry if i have caused offence.

dave


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## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

knighty said:


> you said in your post that amphibians dont need U.V, but now are saying that all yours do..


When setting up a vivarium for a amphibian they do not require any additional UV lighting...although it can be beneficial it is not necessary! My amphibians live in a set up that involves living plants...therefore I have UV mainly for that reason!


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

BecciBoo said:


> When setting up a vivarium for a amphibian they do not require any additional UV lighting...although it can be beneficial it is not necessary! My amphibians live in a set up that involves living plants...therefore I have UV mainly for that reason!



some amphibians do need it, such as dartfrogs... there is however many sources and research to suggest that it is a well needed part of amphibian life cycle.


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## Pipkin28 (Oct 6, 2007)

I've just found this website and I think it has some great advice on mixing species and why it's not so advisable. I think there maybe one or two people who should read this and digest what is being said....

Amphibian Articles - Species Mixing: New World Syndrome

The most pertinent piece being this...
Quote...
"Pet stores often house several salamander and newt, and sometimes frog, species in one tank, which gives pet buyers the idea that amphibians are community animals and coexist in a closed environment with other species. Unfortunately, these animals are often ill when purchased and die shortly after due to their mixed-species environment. It is true that some have mixed certain species with no ill effects for several years, but it is very risky doing so, and not the behavior of responsible keepers.
It is also a common misconception that captive bred species are exceptions to the rule, and can therefore be housed with other amphibians species. The fact is that animals are not sterile creatures, and even captive bred species carry harmful pathogens. Granted, captive bred species are less likely to carry the same diseases and parasites as wild caught, however it's still risky to house even captive bred foreign species together."

It doesn't say mixing can't be done but it gives a good argument as to why it's not a good idea, after all shouldn't we all be putting the animals welfare first? Yes, in the wild different species may meet each other but there are no glass walls in the wild to prevent them from getting away if they so wish.


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## Pipkin28 (Oct 6, 2007)

I think this is another important point, which is what some previous posts have been trying to get across....

Quote...

"* Other consideration when choosing tank mates *Aside from species mixing, there are other considerations when housing sympatric (different species from the same range) or conspecific (same species) species together. The size and behavior/disposition of each member must be considered. Large individuals will dominate small ones, and sometimes pick on them and prevent them from getting any food. All members housed together should be of roughly the same size to ensure one is not bullying the others. Adults, juveniles, and larvae should be housed separately to avoid cannibalism. Aggressive and territorial species should be given ample territory, or should be separated. Caudates of the genera _Pachytriton_ and _Paramesotriton_, for example, grow rather large, are very aggressive and territorial, and can easily kill smaller members. _Pachytritons_ in particular are territorial, and have been known to fight to the death if not given enough territory."

Nuff said.


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

nice posts pipkin: victory:


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## Pipkin28 (Oct 6, 2007)

Just glad I found the voice of reason!!! lol


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## stubeanz (Mar 28, 2007)

wayne the pain said:


> Does that mean there natural instinct to be scared of snakes would stop? No. Do you honestly think they know if they snake is insectivorous or not, course not , they just get out the way because its natural instinct, they dont hang about and say " hang on think this one only eats insect's".:crazy:
> 
> Its called survival.


haha post made me laugh soo much :lol2:
stu


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

i have read the thread about mixing species and would never mix boa + burmese or leo + african fat tail

BUT

i have seen threads on here before offering advice on what could go in a tank n saying that the ones i mentioned before could be housed together that is the reason i asked


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## bob_l (Apr 14, 2007)

it seems that a key factor for this is space. even if they do co-exist in the wild, they are _in the wild_ and are free to roam away from each other which just isnt possible in a 6 ft viv. 

why is it you want to mix species anyway?


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

same reason you want to mix tropical fish... for a communal tank so you can watch different things hunting, moving around and there will be something happening all day even after lights go out


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## froglady (Apr 7, 2008)

*Dont Mix!*

You'd be daft to mix that lot together, everything will very stressed causin loads of probs if things aren't right. I tried to mix when I started out (over 5 years ago now) it seemed fine for a short while then went very wrong. If you care about your creatures take my advice - get another viv!


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

i dont have any of the animals or the viv or any plans in the near future to do this just enquiring =]


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## derekthefrog=] (Mar 25, 2008)

*arghh*

:bash:I AGREE WITH YOU GUYS but he asked the question for an answer not 8 people having a go at him hes got an answer and knows he cant do it so he's not gonna(well he could but after the info i ecxpect him not to)
SO GUYS GIVE HIM A BREAK


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## ashrob (Jul 27, 2007)

thanx =]
can a mod close this thread please i got my answer thanx


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## froglady (Apr 7, 2008)

*I think you've missed the point!*

:rant2: I also take on exotics that have been mistreated, as I'm listed for amphibian rescue with a rescue centre, I see regularly what people cause to these creatures....no one is having a go, simply giving sound advice-do it right, then these pets don't end up dead, having to be removed from their 'homes' or living in stressfull conditions, or enduring months of discomfort on the rocky road to full health. Its better to find out now, than wait till you have a viv full of problems!


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## Cyberlizard (Apr 1, 2008)

At the risk of reopening a passionate debate, I have to point out that Philippe deVosjoli does discuss the *possibility* of communal vivaria in a few books. 

However I should point out that he was also fairly specific in which species it could work for. By and large I agree that the general principle is not to mix species. I have got one cage with two similar-sized _Gerrhosaurus_ species sharing, but it's a big cage and neither is capable of overpowering and devouring the other. They're also from the same part of the world. Even so if I thought it wasn't working I would have to remove one of them. I think one has to be doubly careful with amphibs because of the porous skin.


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