# Anyone got an adder?



## TalonWyrm (Apr 24, 2013)

Hi there

I am a reptile keeper (geckos and skinks) and also a documentary film maker and history graduate.

I am making a not for profit doc about anglo-saxon paganism and there is a scene that looks at the old anglo saxon magic charm involving adders. It goes:

+A snake came crawling, nought did she wound; 
Then took Woden nine twigs of glory
Smote then that adder that in nine bits she flew apart.
There did apple and venom bring it about
 That she never would turn into the house. 

I thought it would be really cool to have a shot of an adder for this scene, but time constraints mean that I can't take a crew adder hunting on the heath in the hope of getting a shot. Instead I was hoping a kindly snake owner in London might be willing to let us pop over and get a quick shot fo their pet.


I can't offer you anything except to be credited as a professional snake handler or something to that effect. 

Please reply or PM me if you and your snake can help!


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## HowseR21 (Nov 5, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that you can only have a European adder as a pet if it's captive bred. BUT..... Getting a captive bred adder means getting a WC pair and breeding them to each other then breeding the offspring to each other and then again before you have CB adders.

Anybody who's midway in creating CB adders is currently breaking the law as they're a protected species.

You're best bet is to head out into the Heath with a crew and see what you come across : victory:

I'd be very surprised if you get any legitimate responses


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

HowseR21 said:


> Anybody who's midway in creating CB adders is currently breaking the law as they're a protected species.


Which law are they breaking if thet hold a DWA license?

David.


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## TalonWyrm (Apr 24, 2013)

yeah i thought it was illegal even with DWA license, because you can't keep british wild animals as pets in britain.

tBH i would settle for a shot of any small snake right now. can't go hunting adders with a film crew.


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

TalonWyrm said:


> yeah i thought it was illegal even with DWA license, because you can't keep british wild animals as pets in britain.
> 
> tBH i would settle for a shot of any small snake right now. can't go hunting adders with a film crew.


Give "Eyelasher" a message on here. Also known as Steve Ludwin. You might of heard or seen him on documentaries injecting snake venom. He may be able to help you out.


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

In the UK it is illegal to Kill,Injure or trade Adders the law that prevents them from them generally being kept is the Dangerous wild animals act if you have them on your license then you can keep them, you would not be allowed trade them or their offspring should you breed them, However Adders that are found within National Park Boundaries have further protection as do Adders found with in SSI's and in some instances on private property and designated Nature Reserves 
European legislation brings further restrictions and some European countries such as the Netherlands do not allow them to be kept under any circumstances

if you get out onto a Known Adder Site right now on a nice overcast day such as forecast this weekend (Again!) you will have a high probability of getting the footage you need.

cheers Tim


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

In the UK it is illegal to Kill,Injure or trade Adders the law that prevents them from them generally being kept is the Dangerous wild animals act if you have them on your license then you can keep them, you would not be allowed trade them or their offspring should you breed them, However Adders that are found within National Park Boundaries have further protection as do Adders found with in SSI's and in some instances on private property and designated Nature Reserves 
European legislation brings further restrictions and some European countries such as the Netherlands do not allow them to be kept under any circumstances

if you get out onto a Known Adder Site right now on a nice overcast day such as forecast this weekend (Again!) you will have a high probability of getting the footage you need.

cheers Tim


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

The impression I get is that this species is very rarely kept in captivity in the UK - I'm sure there are some out there (presumably with DWA licence of course!), but I don't know any personally.

Assuming they are rarely kept in captivity, and aren't particulrly hard to find in the wild (especially at this time of year), you may well be better off trying to photograph one in the wild.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

TalonWyrm said:


> yeah i thought it was illegal even with DWA license, because you can't keep british wild animals as pets in britain.


Not quite true - there are different levels of protection granted to wildlife in law. Its not illegal to keep adders but it is illegal to harm them. However with smooth snakes its an ofense to even disturb them. 

Although back to your original question the word 'adder' is a corruption of the old english 'næddre' which just means snake. Though the poem would definately sugest what we call an adder, you could probably make an argument for filming any snake.... and then get people complaining that the snake you used wasn't actually an adder of course :lol2:


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Not quite true - there are different levels of protection granted to wildlife in law. Its not illegal to keep adders but it is illegal to harm them. However with smooth snakes its an ofense to even disturb them.
> 
> Although back to your original question the word 'adder' is a corruption of the old english 'næddre' which just means snake. Though the poem would definately sugest what we call an adder, you could probably make an argument for filming any snake.... and then get people complaining that the snake you used wasn't actually an adder of course :lol2:


u need to go to the pub more ofter and get ur head out them books lol :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Its amazing how many experts pop up on threads like this! 

Some are fully aware and some are clearly unaware or UK legislation and DWA issues! 

As a professional ecologist working with and for adder conservation and to avoid be contentious I can confirm we keep Vipera berus sourced from captive bred Russian stock!

These are used for educational purposes and are not "Pets" as one post put it!

Be fully aware bites from Adders are potentially dangerous, there are not a sting or a minor issue.

We also hold professional HD video stock and are the only ecologists legally allowed to display and use these anywhere in the UK!

This includes professional training, filming and so on!

We also hold paperwork clearly showing the source of the original stock


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

HowseR21 said:


> I'm pretty sure that you can only have a European adder as a pet if it's captive bred. BUT..... Getting a captive bred adder means getting a WC pair and breeding them to each other then breeding the offspring to each other and then again before you have CB adders.
> 
> Anybody who's midway in creating CB adders is currently breaking the law as they're a protected species.
> 
> ...





> yeah i thought it was illegal even with DWA license, because you can't keep british wild animals as pets in britain.
> 
> tBH i would settle for a shot of any small snake right now. can't go hunting adders with a film crew.


What absolute rubbish. Provided you have a valid DWA with Vipera berus (adder) listed as one of the species you are permitted to keep then there is absolutely nothing wrong in collecting and keeping WC adders. They are NOT protected to the extent that they cannot be kept in captivity. They are protected from harm and sale. They are no more protected than slow worms, grass snakes, and common lizards.



> In the UK it is illegal to Kill,Injure or trade Adders the law that prevents them from them generally being kept is the Dangerous wild animals act if you have them on your license then you can keep them, *you would not be allowed trade them or their offspring should you breed them*, However Adders that are found within National Park Boundaries have further protection as do Adders found with in SSI's and in some instances on private property and designated Nature Reserves
> European legislation brings further restrictions and some European countries such as the Netherlands do not allow them to be kept under any circumstances


As for breeding and selling, then if you are talking about CB snakes produced from WC UK adders, as with any other UK reptile, provided you can prove they were BRED as opposed to BORN in captivity then this is perfectly legal. 
As far as I am aware they would not have any additional protection simply because they are within the boundaries of a National Park other than that you would need permission from the owner to collect them, as you would for any privately owned land. This does not mean however that they have greater legal protection under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. I am unaware (and having just looked at the legislation, cannot find) of any additional legal protection to adders found on SSI's either. Natural England may provide a notification relating to conservation of a specific species found deeming the site to be an SSI but there is no mention of enhanced legal protection. The notice relates to operations, land work etc which can only be carried out subject to conditions from Natural England.

As an aside, adders are often considered to be a very difficult species to maintain in captivity.


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

ian14 said:


> As far as I am aware they would not have any additional protection simply because they are within the boundaries of a National Park other than that you would need permission from the owner to collect them,as you would for any privately owned land.


This is the kind of further protection I was intimating at, I don't recall mentioning anything about the Wild Life and Countryside Act.
as I understand it I thought it was illegal to cause any disturbance with in an SSI obviously I'm wrong thanks for bluntly enlightening me.



ian14 said:


> As an aside, adders are often considered to be a very difficult species to maintain in captivity.


I don't believe Adders are difficult to keep ,most people keep them too cold.
and I'm not sure you are correct regarding trading offspring in the UK.

regards Tim.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Tim Hallam said:


> I'm not sure you are correct regarding trading offspring in the UK.
> 
> regards Tim.


He is.

How one would go about proving that what you were selling was bred in captivity is another question. At the moment there is no precedent or guidence.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Tim Hallam said:


> This is the kind of further protection I was intimating at, I don't recall mentioning anything about the Wild Life and Countryside Act.
> as I understand it I thought it was illegal to cause any disturbance with in an SSI obviously I'm wrong thanks for bluntly enlightening me.
> 
> 
> ...


Tim,

I'll try not to be so blunt (I'm not sure that comments such as "What absolute rubbish" are an effective way of engaging with people who come on these forums to learn and to make bona fide contributions to open discussions, however much in error they may be, but that's beside the point!), but to give a constructive answer, each SSSI, when designated, comes with a list of operations which may harm the special interest (used to be called the OLDSI list, then PDO list, now 'Operations Requiring Consultation')). Very often this will include 'Killing, or removal of any wild animal excluding pests.' If this is the case, then to capture and remove an adder from that SSSI, you would need consent from NE/NRW/SNH. I don't imagine 'I want to keep it as a pet', would receive consent, but I can see nothing which would prevent disturbance of adders on a SSSI.

Incidentally, I agree with Ian14 that to be not 'wild', i.e. CB and therefore available for sale, the animal would have to be the offspring of parents who mated in captivity. Although there is no general definition of CB and Wild as such, for birds S. 27(2) of the WCA1981 says ' A bird shall not be treated as bred in captivity for the purposes of this Part unless its parents were lawfully in captivity when the egg was laid.'. Note the plural 'Parent*s*', suggesting that the male and female have to mate while in captivity.


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

Matt Harris said:


> Tim,
> 
> I'll try not to be so blunt (I'm not sure that comments such as "What absolute rubbish" are an effective way of engaging with people who come on these forums to learn and to make bona fide contributions to open discussions, however much in error they may be, but that's beside the point!), but to give a constructive answer, each SSSI, when designated, comes with a list of operations which may harm the special interest (used to be called the OLDSI list, then PDO list, now 'Operations Requiring Consultation')). Very often this will include 'Killing, or removal of any wild animal excluding pests.' If this is the case, then to capture and remove an adder from that SSSI, you would need consent from NE/NRW/SNH. I don't imagine 'I want to keep it as a pet', would receive consent, but I can see nothing which would prevent disturbance of adders on a SSSI.
> 
> Incidentally, I agree with Ian14 that to be not 'wild', i.e. CB and therefore available for sale, the animal would have to be the offspring of parents who mated in captivity. Although there is no general definition of CB and Wild as such, for birds S. 27(2) of the WCA1981 says ' A bird shall not be treated as bred in captivity for the purposes of this Part unless its parents were lawfully in captivity when the egg was laid.'. Note the plural 'Parent*s*', suggesting that the male and female have to mate while in captivity.


Thanks Matt so in a nutshell Adders on an SSSI have further protection 
and thanks I'm aware of what defines true captive breeding. 

here's a pic of some captive bred Adders 
regards Tim.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

erm that like a handfull of pain are they not that toxic when there young then?


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

no just as toxic but fairly innocuous


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