# Licenses'



## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Hmm a toughie this one. 

I know a few keepers with and without licenses, and the question keeps comming up in my head. 

I would like to know peoples views on licensing and keeping without them. 

From what i have seen unlicensed keepers are much more careful, and quiet about their captives, and use alot more care because of the threat of procecution. Whereas licensed keepers tend to show off alot more (not all) because they dont have any reason not to. 

Un-necassary risks are taken when people take pics, and show others their collection's. And these risks are the ones that end up killing keepers etc. 

For me the lisence is a bit of paper. One guy got a DWAL after 2/3 months of keeping corns etc. And i dont see the reason to get one, it is purly lineing the pockets of office wallies. 

If selling a DWA animal, i wouldnt care for the license (i have no need to-legally) i would speak to the person and asses their ability and motives before the sale. If they are capable, and safe (IMHO) then the sale happens, if they are not, the sale wont (even if it was a zoo or somthing) 

Whats your views?


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

i agree i think people without a liscense would be more careful therefore less likely to be bitten i dont like the whole showing off thing myself fair enough take pics but thats it.. so anyone selling a gaboon and a gila monster?


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Kellogscornsnake! said:


> i agree i think people without a liscense would be more careful therefore less likely to be bitten i dont like the whole showing off thing myself fair enough take pics but thats it.. so anyone selling a gaboon and a gila monster?


yeah there are...lots of animals are avalble "no questions" and it is this fact that promted the thread.


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

cool il have a look around il get pics when i get it


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I replied in the other thread and but here it is again, even careful people may have accidents, if caught you bring the hobby as a whole into the spotlight, you would probably get taken to court and fined, your animals would get taken you may never be able to legally get a DWA.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I think its quite effective licencing scheme anyway the flaw for me is major cost differences in different countys but statistics speak for themselves on the safety of it all.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

but alot of venomous keeping is underground etc. there are "venomous rings" like in drugs and (dare i say) paedophilia. There is a self regulating hobby, that survives. The way it works is the keepers only let other keepers in, and they dont tell joe public about the animals. 

There are shops, and importers fuling this trade. and virtually anything can be bought and sold in these hidden realms.


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## sparky (Dec 20, 2006)

when i decide to keep a dwa animal, whice one day i will, i am gonna do it legally because as siuk said you can loose your animal and i wouldnt want that to happen !!


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

the loss and possible euthanasia is the only downside in my eyes. If i ever was to keep "on the quiet" then i would have procedures to remove the animals to a mates collection etc. So if i got bit, or word got out, i could have them gone instantly. ..


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> but alot of venomous keeping is underground etc. there are "venomous rings" like in drugs and (dare i say) paedophilia. There is a self regulating hobby, that survives. The way it works is the keepers only let other keepers in, and they dont tell joe public about the animals.
> 
> There are shops, and importers fuling this trade. and virtually anything can be bought and sold in these hidden realms.


thats the same as you say in over things, the fact that you mention it in the same breath as drugs and paedophilia is a bad thing. 

It does go on and alot of people must keep successfully for years but its always gonna be the "what if" in my opinion


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

The "drugs and peadophilia" was a reference to the organiseation and secrecy of the whole thing, not that it is bad. 

It works also in the same way as governments and alike. Have you ever used cannabis? simlar argument. 

In fact most people who have a clue dont want it legalised, because this adds Tax, and VAT and would push up the price.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> The "drugs and peadophilia" was a reference to the organiseation and secrecy of the whole thing, not that it is bad.
> 
> It works also in the same way as governments and alike. Have you ever used cannabis? simlar argument.
> 
> In fact most people who have a clue dont want it legalised, because this adds Tax, and VAT and would push up the price.


I have never used any form of narcotic:halo::whistling2:


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

its all about ability tbh, some county's are cheap for a d.w.a take kettering for an example 48 quid plus vets anybody could go and pay that get a few decent setups with decent locks and get approved but had only ever kept a corn its not exactly the most efficient way of licensing is it!


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

I would keep with a lisence, but it is abot the ability, and then you have the paper. If you understand...you should only be allowed a lisence after you have the ability. That makes more sence.

When i get my own place i will get a DWA...


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## sparky (Dec 20, 2006)

slitly off topic abit but can you get a dwa licence if you live in a council house?


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

sparky said:


> slitly off topic abit but can you get a dwa licence if you live in a council house?


council house, yes, housing association probably not, and private will depend on the land lord.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Kellogscornsnake! said:


> its all about ability tbh, some county's are cheap for a d.w.a take kettering for an example 48 quid plus vets anybody could go and pay that get a few decent setups with decent locks and get approved but had only ever kept a corn its not exactly the most efficient way of licensing is it!


but how many people have been bitten or had accidents though? I think its safe the stats speak for themselves, I think the licence is efficient from the history of what has happened it all seems to run pretty smoothly


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

I think one of the possible problems I can see with keeping DWA's illegaly is when you get bitten or caught. 

Will this not give the Anti Reptile organisations even more ammunition for getting the hobby as a whole banned

And should a pet shop sell a DWA illegally and get caught I could the implecations to the hobby as a whole being devastating

Just a thought?


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

i doubt many shops would risk it.. its more "behind the scenes" stuff..


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Palmanda said:


> I think one of the possible problems I can see with keeping DWA's illegaly is when you get bitten or caught.
> 
> Will this not give the Anti Reptile organisations even more ammunition for getting the hobby as a whole banned
> 
> ...


a shop has no legal obligation to ask to see a DWAL before a selling a dwa animal, but I agree if an unlicensed animal bit someone the antis would have a field day, and god forbid one ever escaped and bit a member of the public


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

My council specifies that I must write and notify them of all DWA species I intend to, or are keeping. I must write and notify them with the name and address, and keep photocopies of DWA licenses should I sell any of these animals. 

If I were caught not doing this, I would lose my pet shop license, and therefore my shop. I do not know the implications for non pet shop people, but I believe I can also be prosecuted for selling to unlicensed people under the terms of my current license.

But ignoring that, I think that people who keep animals unlicensed are no more responsible than those with a DWA license. The only unlicensed keeper I know is a young lad with little to no experience who is related to someone with a pet shop license, and got a caiman off them. It was too much for him to handle, and he gave it to a friend. Again without a license. They are not a responsible keeper. They are keepers who the council would turn down for a license.

So without a license, there is no guarantee that you even bothered to provide any safety gear at all. There is no guarantee that even if you are very careful about getting caught, that the snake is in the correct enclosure. There is no checks at all, so basically, as long as you don't get caught, or bitten, you can treat the animal however the hell you like.

Also, regarding underground movements, you do get them. You get illegal traders, street traders, people who are hard to trace. You also get shops who throw caution to the wind, or are in councils far less strict than mine, who will sell to anyone. The more DWA animals traded by unlicensed people, the more they suffer. If someone is dealing DWA without a license, what is the likelihood it's kept in a good setup? There's no guarantee that's for sure... especially if he is trading.

You also then don't have to show who you bought the snake from and where it went. What happens if that snake escapes, there's not even a record of it existing. What happens if it's diseased, with a DWA photocopied I can show the address of both where the snake came from, and where it went through.. if there are any problems with disease, quarantine, or a snake being found that's venomous, I can at least say, I've kept this and sold this, to this person.. and the venomous in the area can be traced.

So, DWA licensing is a pain in the ass. I think it needs to be centralised like all licensing, one rule for all - one cost for all - but, to go the other way, and say well, it's okay for people to keep one without a DWA, is in my opinion completely unacceptable. I think it's there for an important reason and does an important job, and I will support DWA 100%.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

SiUK said:


> a shop has no legal obligation to ask to see a DWAL before a selling a dwa animal, but I agree if an unlicensed animal bit someone the antis would have a field day, and god forbid one ever escaped and bit a member of the public


You can just imagine the headlines on Sky News "Illegally kept venomous snake escapes and kills school child.....RSPCA spokesman says this is why we are fighting to ban all reptile keeping in the UK"

We will never beat publicity like that


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Palmanda said:


> You can just imagine the headlines on Sky News "Illegally kept venomous snake escapes and kills school child.....RSPCA spokesman says this is why we are fighting to ban all reptile keeping in the UK"
> 
> We will never beat publicity like that


it would be banned then without a doubt


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

Exactly we would be in a no win situation


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

"giant python escapes and eats toddler" (its possible, sounds worse and is more likely)

And the fact is, that most of the "underground hobby" is self regulating. You need a decent amount of knowledge and expiriance before people will let you in. There are obviously people who can and will sell to anyone, in the same way a person can bring them back from Hamm without question (anyone) 

This means that whever legal or not the animal can potentally escape, and the standards are very poor in some areas, and more strict in others.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> "giant python escapes and eats toddler" (its possible, sounds worse and is more likely)
> 
> And the fact is, that most of the "underground hobby" is self regulating. You need a decent amount of knowledge and expiriance before people will let you in. There are obviously people who can and will sell to anyone, in the same way a person can bring them back from Hamm without question (anyone)
> 
> This means that whever legal or not the animal can potentally escape, and the standards are very poor in some areas, and more strict in others.


True enough....

So from the statement above the licensing laws need to be tightened up and standardised accross the country.

Maybe they should include the larger pythons? (oh God i sound like an anti now.....WHICH I AM NOT!)


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I can see both sides of it, obviously this has been going on for a great number of years with nothing bad happening, it doesnt bother me really except for the fact of if something did happen then it would effect the whole hobby negatively, it doent effect the fact that I would do everything above the board.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

SiUK said:


> but how many people have been bitten or had accidents though? I think its safe the stats speak for themselves, I think the licence is efficient from the history of what has happened it all seems to run pretty smoothly


I know of 3 people to've been bitten (2 locally (1 on 2 occasions I believe and one I think was keeping illegally as instead of dialing 999 he contacted the shop who's a notoriously unscrupulous dealer and would sell a rattler to a 5y/o if it made him money). 4 that I know of if you include one of the guys at Liverpool school of tropical medicine. I've no idea what the stats are for venomous bites REPORTED in the UK are.

And sorry Dan but not having a DWA will not make you a better keeper. That theory doesn't hold water IMO. As for the selling to people without one not currently an offense in itself - I do believe that's being addressed as a legal issue for the future.


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## sarahssnakes (Feb 19, 2006)

well i dont think any one should be able to keep any venemous animal with or with out a bit of paper,i love gaboon vipers but no way would i own one theese are def best left to the wild,and yes we could all say that about any reptile but my corn isnt likely to kill me with a bite.
but this is just my view(so please dont shoot me down at dawn or get your dwa to bite me :lol2 and i know many keepers do keep them responsibly and well, but like what was said in a few posts what if it got out the rspca would have a field day and the end of reptile keeping.: victory:


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

sarahssnakes said:


> well i dont think any one should be able to keep any venemous animal with or with out a bit of paper,i love gaboon vipers but no way would i own one theese are def best left to the wild,and yes we could all say that about any reptile but my corn isnt likely to kill me with a bite.
> but this is just my view(so please dont shoot me down at dawn or get your dwa to bite me :lol2 and i know many keepers do keep them responsibly and well, but like what was said in a few posts what if it got out the rspca would have a field day and the end of reptile keeping.: victory:


I don't think so TBH, it might be the end of DWA keeping but that'd be it. I know someone who's kept lots of hots with no probs and cared well for them for 20+ years with no bites. Provided the keeper is competent and careful then it's all good. More deaths in this country occur from dogs and horses than any other animal.


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## sarahssnakes (Feb 19, 2006)

yes but as i said its just the way i feel about it i have never seen the interest in keeping hots would scare the poop out of me if they did get out and with 5 small kids that would be scary,i couldnt trust myself and would keep checking to make sure i had locked the vivs i would be a bag of nerves, one thing for a corn to get out but another if a hot got out!!
i mean how do you change the water and spot clean the viv if you have the risk of being bit?short of taking the animal out first which again would scare my witless??
: victory:


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

sarahssnakes said:


> yes but as i said its just the way i feel about it i have never seen the interest in keeping hots would scare the poop out of me if they did get out and with 5 small kids that would be scary,i couldnt trust myself and would keep checking to make sure i had locked the vivs i would be a bag of nerves, one thing for a corn to get out but another if a hot got out!!
> i mean how do you change the water and spot clean the viv if you have the risk of being bit?short of taking the animal out first which again would scare my witless??
> : victory:


You take them out first and lock 'em in a tub, do what you have to and put them back and lock 'em in.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

sarahssnakes said:


> yes but as i said its just the way i feel about it i have never seen the interest in keeping hots would scare the poop out of me if they did get out and with 5 small kids that would be scary,i couldnt trust myself and would keep checking to make sure i had locked the vivs i would be a bag of nerves, one thing for a corn to get out but another if a hot got out!!
> i mean how do you change the water and spot clean the viv if you have the risk of being bit?short of taking the animal out first which again would scare my witless??
> : victory:


I have to agree, there is no way I would have them in my house license or not. I dont know what is involved with getting a license but reading these posts is it just a case of getting a VET check and then parting with some cash?

i am not sure I would even be comfortable if any of my neighbours had venomous snakes


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Palmanda said:


> I have to agree, there is no way I would have them in my house license or not. I dont know what is involved with getting a license but reading these posts is it just a case of getting a VET check and then parting with some cash?
> 
> i am not sure I would even be comfortable if any of my neighbours had venomous snakes


There's also filling out a form and meeting the requirements of the D.W.A.A. Basically you need 2 locked doors between the dwa animal and the outside world - it can be a lock on the viv and locks on the front door + windows. They ask for the animal being kept and measurements of it's enclosure from the form I saw. I'm not 100% sure what else is involved, I think you need some kind of warning signs also. The DWAA is not a measure of keeper competence (unfortunately).


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## sarahssnakes (Feb 19, 2006)

Fangio said:


> You take them out first and lock 'em in a tub, do what you have to and put them back and lock 'em in.


oohhh god i would not put the lid on right and it would be off have done that with my corns many a time,and i dont thinki would be happy if my neighbours kept any too.
: victory:


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

So it sounds like just about any nugget can get one as long as they have the money to pay?

That is scary!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

on captive bred it says there have been no serious envenomations in private collections, I dont know how true that is but it was on there site not just the forum.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

SiUK said:


> on captive bred it says there have been no serious envenomations in private collections, I dont know how true that is but it was on there site not just the forum.


Knowing my luck I would be the First.......lol


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

SiUK said:


> on captive bred it says there have been no serious envenomations in private collections, I dont know how true that is but it was on there site not just the forum.


There have been bites but I don't think anyone has died here yet from private collections.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Fangio said:


> There have been bites but I don't think anyone has died here yet from private collections.


it would be quite unlucky to die I recon what with antivenom being readily available, unless a severe reaction or a vein or artery was hit, or it was a really rare snake, not saying that you wouldnt go through horrible pain and permanent disfigurement, I was talking to someone about a guy in Ireland who lost a finger from a copperhead bite.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

SiUK said:


> it would be quite unlucky to die I recon what with antivenom being readily available, unless a severe reaction or a vein or artery was hit, or it was a really rare snake, not saying that you wouldnt go through horrible pain and permanent disfigurement, I was talking to someone about a guy in Ireland who lost a finger from a copperhead bite.


I think Adam at the Reptile Zone lost a finger or part of a finger.


<may be wrong>


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Fixx said:


> I think Adam at the Reptile Zone lost a finger or part of a finger.
> 
> 
> <may be wrong>


thats pretty lucky considering


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

antivenom is *quite* available (if by available you mean at stock in liverpool or various unis). What is not always available it, authorisation to go, a helecopter or bike courier to get it to you. AV should not be seen at a "get out of jail free card". Best way is to act as if the nearest supply is 1000 miles away, because the time it *could* take might make that more realistic.

Drop "unlucky" and hit a major event (accident etc) and you may have shot it. Only a limited number of problems can be dealt with at once by any 'organisation', and even the NHS only has so many helecopters.


AV is there but if you even see it as an option/choice then it's time to rethink. Be assured that it's there, but never put yourself at enough risk to ever need it.

One reason i'm only having one (focus), and one reason we will never breed hots. 11 minute hots not feeding, try doing that with a snake hook.

Mason - I'll take just the one please.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

SiUK said:


> it would be quite unlucky to die I recon what with antivenom being readily available, unless a severe reaction or a vein or artery was hit, or it was a really rare snake, not saying that you wouldnt go through horrible pain and permanent disfigurement, I was talking to someone about a guy in Ireland who lost a finger from a copperhead bite.


Anti-venin isn't available for all species. Just a thought.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

There is a lot of focus in this thread about venomous snakes, but there are other DWA reptiles and animals other than them, some that aren't even 'dangerous' as such and have been placed under the DWA Act as their care requirements are quite complex, e.g. tamarins Other animals are not on the DWA list but possibly should be as they have to potential to do serious damage, the only reason they aren't is because it's nigh on impossible to get on, Komodo Dragons for example.
It's also possible to go out and buy a horse, huge animals with serious potential to damage you or even kill you.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Fixx said:


> There is a lot of focus in this thread about venomous snakes, but there are other DWA reptiles and animals other than them, some that aren't even 'dangerous' as such and have been placed under the DWA Act as their care requirements are quite complex, e.g. tamarins Other animals are not on the DWA list but possibly should be as they have to potential to do serious damage, the only reason they aren't is because it's nigh on impossible to get on, Komodo Dragons for example.
> It's also possible to go out and buy a horse, huge animals with serious potential to damage you or even kill you.


I really don't agree with some of the monkey's coming off One of our local shops (very bad shop) used to be full of 'em, kept badly and sold to anyone with the necessary £.

Also along the same lines as animals not on the list because it's nigh on impossible to get one - there are banned dogs here that have never been in our country.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Fixx said:


> There is a lot of focus in this thread about venomous snakes, but there are other DWA reptiles and animals other than them, some that aren't even 'dangerous' as such and have been placed under the DWA Act as their care requirements are quite complex, e.g. tamarins Other animals are not on the DWA list but possibly should be as they have to potential to do serious damage, the only reason they aren't is because it's nigh on impossible to get on, Komodo Dragons for example.
> It's also possible to go out and buy a horse, huge animals with serious potential to damage you or even kill you.


there are several species i'd love to work with if the reps weren't such a big focus ( or maybe when 3 bedrooms become 4).

I would love for example to work with a kinkajou  But to bo fair on the animal a lot of time, space and money must be spent. time and space are really a factor. I'd love to work with them...but if it's a choice between the large pythons and the kinkajou..It has to be the pythons for me. Who knows. 

Mason


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

id have the laws toughened as too many people can get hold of licenses without even being able to take care of a corn properly...yeah its about ability and not paper but there was to be some sort of formality as they're very special animals...but could also in some cases kill you. I suppose a license would give you the right to treatment too...if you don't have a license and the snake escapes and you get bitten and die....then its tough shiz!


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## matto2k (Nov 30, 2006)

For me, i Beleive the DWA laws are out dated and badly need looking at or at least grading. i mean why should a DWA for a death stalker be the same as that for a lion for instance. there is less chance of the scorpion escaping. or causing damage.

the licence fee should be brought down to about £30 or so just to cover administration costs. with some form of test to show you've at least read up on how to care for your pet with out getting hurt. a quick visit by a council representitive to make sure the cage is escape proof. job done

not all the crap about paying +£100 for renewual each year.

it should be a once of payment with the condition of random spot checks every 9 months or so.... with penaltys attached to things that have gone wrong.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> antivenom is *quite* available (if by available you mean at stock in liverpool or various unis). What is not always available it, authorisation to go, a helecopter or bike courier to get it to you. AV should not be seen at a "get out of jail free card". Best way is to act as if the nearest supply is 1000 miles away, because the time it *could* take might make that more realistic.
> 
> Drop "unlucky" and hit a major event (accident etc) and you may have shot it. Only a limited number of problems can be dealt with at once by any 'organisation', and even the NHS only has so many helecopters.
> 
> ...


obviously you shouldnt ever rely on anti venom, and be careless because of it because that would be stupid, but you need to always be prepared no matter how careful you are there is a chance that one day an accident may happen, its never going to be a risk free hobby, and in my post although I said that anti venom is there I also said that you could recieve permanent disfiguement and alot of pain.

Getting bit is not an option for most people certainly not me, but its reasuring to know that in the event of an accident happening there is a good chance anti venom would be available.


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

Personally i think its about ability not paper....but i DO think that bit of paper is important and a must


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi all,

I think people who keep DWA snakes with out a licence, have no regard for their snake or snakes.
Or fellow herpers.

If they never get bitten no body will know.

If they do get bitten without a licence everyone will know, the anties will have a field day.

Yet again, the minority ruin it for the majority.

We need all the help we can get at this time, not shoot ourselves in the foot.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake:


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## DragonKeeper (Jun 30, 2007)

what would happen if you got bit n you never had the DWAL


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