# Substrate for planted terrarium.



## Paul_c (Mar 11, 2011)

Sorry, I know there are loads of threads like this already but everyone I read seems to be different. This is my first planted tank and I want to get it right, I have a 45x45x60 exo terra, will 1.1 kg of hydroballs be enough? Eco earth or plantation earth? and how much will I need. Then mix that with same amounts of organic compost? Anybody recommend a brand from Homebase/B&Q? Do I need to add anything to that? seen some people say orchid bark and others don't like it. Sorry, its a lit of questions, I just want to make sure I have it right so I can get started on it.
Thanks
Paul..



_Posted from Reptileforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## bigd_1 (May 31, 2011)

Paul_c said:


> Sorry, I know there are loads of threads like this already but everyone I read seems to be different. This is my first planted tank and I want to get it right, I have a 45x45x60 exo terra, will 1.1 kg of hydroballs be enough? Eco earth or plantation earth? and how much will I need. Then mix that with same amounts of organic compost? Anybody recommend a brand from Homebase/B&Q? Do I need to add anything to that? seen some people say orchid bark and others don't like it. Sorry, its a lit of questions, I just want to make sure I have it right so I can get started on it.
> Thanks
> Paul..
> 
> ...


 i have a mix of coco fiber and organic compost then a bit of orchid bark in when it comes to the hydroball i just had a big bag of then so just put in what looked ok


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Not sure on the hydroballs, to give a depth of 4 cm you need to multiply the area, in this case 45x45=2025, by the depth, 4cm, and convert the result, 8100, into litres, which is 8.1 litres. So a ten litre bag will do it, i'm not sure what that is in weight though i'm afraid.

For substrate, it's not an exact science. The yanks prefer an ABG mix, which has peat, charcoal, bark, etc in it. This is a very good mix, but in my opinion creates far too much growth, leading to excessive trimming of plants. I personally use either orchid compost, or a mix of organic compost and orchid bark. This balances good drainage with a decent nutrient mix. 

Others use eco earth or plantation soil, this however is feeble for plant growth, pretty much the only nutrients in it will be what is produced in the waste from your pets.

Worth checking out the planted section with a quick search, or head over to amphibians. I warn you though, every frogger has his/her own mix, as do most others who make planted vivs. Trial and error is the way ahead. To be honest with you, sorting your lighting and watering is far more important in my opinion, a lot of tropical plants grow naturally in very poor soil, but thy do require decent light and watering.

Dave


----------



## Paul_c (Mar 11, 2011)

bigd_1 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> i have a mix of coco fiber and organic compost then a bit of orchid bark in when it comes to the hydroball i just had a big bag of then so just put in what looked ok


ok thanks.
I have no idea what 1.1kg of hydroballs looks like! lol. I want to get everything ordered then I can get cracking with it. I don't want to then wait another week for another bag of hydroballs to turn up cause I didn't order enough! 



_Posted from Reptileforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Hydroballs I found difficult to judge personally, try to get a litre figure for the amount you need and then the amount in a bag, although if you have too much you can use it in other jobs 
I don't know what you are making the tank for, but there is a mixture called ABG mixture. It was developed by the Atlanta Botanical Gardens hence the name. It is a very rich mix and some people say it makes plants grow too quick. The recipe I followed was this
2 parts FINE orchid bark
2 parts tree fern fibre
2 parts organic lumpwood charcoal that is crushed (i ran it over in my car a few times lol)
1 part milled sphanum (the stuff in the compressed brick that is a powder
1 part coco eco earth

Mix it all together and jobs a gooden. If you Google abg recipe you will get a lot of results. 

Remember to seperate the hydroballs with mesh such as exo terra hydrodrain. Remember to seed it with micro fauna and it should last a good while.


Edit: I told you some people say it is too rich lol


----------



## Paul_c (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks Dave.
I will see if I can find somewhere that does hydroballs by litre and not weight.
I am trying to avoid the trial and error bit if I can lol. I don't have the time or money to keep changing everything untill I get it right!
As for the lighting etc after weeks of reading I think I have that sorted now, its just the fact that everyone seems to use a different mix for substrate. Ah well, I may just have to bite the bullet and go with a rough average and see what happens!





_Posted from Reptileforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Paul_c said:


> Thanks Dave.
> I will see if I can find somewhere that does hydroballs by litre and not weight.
> I am trying to avoid the trial and error bit if I can lol. I don't have the time or money to keep changing everything untill I get it right!
> As for the lighting etc after weeks of reading I think I have that sorted now, its just the fact that everyone seems to use a different mix for substrate. Ah well, I may just have to bite the bullet and go with a rough average and see what happens!


May I ask what you have planned for lighting, I may be able to offer some advice (I've used just about every type of lighting available!! :lol2

And I really wouldn't flap about the substrate, at the end of the day if everyone uses something different and yet no-one is saying "don't use such and such, it's bloody awful" then you really can't go wrong! If, like most of use, you're impatient for your first viv to get up and growing, then you may be best of looking into ABG mix, it is awesome at giving your plants a real kickstart. If, however, you want a really sustainable long term viv with lower maintenance needs, go with something a little less dynamic.

Here is the original ABG mix, as created

1 part milled peat

1 part milled sphagnum moss

1 part fine charcoal

2 parts fine tree fern fiber

2 parts fine orchid bark


The charcoal amount is usually increased upto 2 parts.

Now, for a bit of honesty, if you're anything like the majority of first time planted viv makers, you'll end up learning a lot fom this viv, and regretting a lot, and in 6 or 12 months ripping it all out and starting again. No harm in it, I think we've all done it, and therefore try and relax and just have fun with it. So far I've created 10 planted set-ups, but only in five vivs. Two of those haven't been ripped out, the other three have, two of them twice. It's the way it goes, now i'm at the stage where I kind of know what i'm doing, and to make a set up i'm happy with just needs tweaking as opposed to nuking, but it's a long learning curve, and I doubt many would disagree.

Dave

edit: Just dug up this thread from Dendroboard for you, if you're serious about your substrate have a look at it. It's actually worth joining dendroboard even if you're not into Darts, I joined long before I got any, as some of the stuff they do with their vivs leaves you speechless, some really good info on there.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

this is what fatlad69 told me



> The pure peat moss is hard to find. I did come across one seller on eBay who sells it with no additives http://bit.ly/10UdeeQ as he uses it for carnivorous plants. I don't use charcoal just peat moss tree fern, torn up sphagnum, oak leaves and orchid bark. The substrate drains well and the plants go mad. It's a mix Wolfenrook recommended, you can usually find him in the phib section.
> 
> Adam


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

my_shed said:


> Here is the original ABG mix, as created
> 
> 1 part milled peat
> 
> ...


That is the mixture i followed, but with some PMs to a member on dendroboard, i found you can switch out milled peat for eco earth. It is hard find peat at resonable prices in the UK. 

This has reported to last 5+ years in a viv, but as mentioned, you will probably rip it out in less. ABG is all the rage in the states and seems to guarantee plant growth, so that's why is have chosen it for my first.

If you went for thumbnail darts, i would say to look into clay substrate. that is more in the experienced realm though :lol2:




a question to Dave, 

will a 2 54w bulb t5ho fixture be enough for a 4' long x 16" deep tank?


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> That is the mixture i followed, but with some PMs to a member on dendroboard, i found you can switch out milled peat for eco earth. It is hard find peat at resonable prices in the UK.?


As far as I can work out the milled peat doesn't do much more than just bulk it up and give it some substance, everything else is kind of bitty, with no ability to clump up or give the roots much to hold to.



plasma234 said:


> This has reported to last 5+ years in a viv, but as mentioned, you will probably rip it out in less. ABG is all the rage in the states and seems to guarantee plant growth, so that's why is have chosen it for my first.


ABG should in theory last the lifetime of the viv, as the animals will fertilize it to replace missing nutrients, and fallen leaves etc add to it.



plasma234 said:


> If you went for thumbnail darts, i would say to look into clay substrate. that is more in the experienced realm though :lol2:


 I've been considering a clay based substrate myself, but have yet to see any real evidence that it is any more beneficial than just adding powdered cuttlefish or similar into your ABG mix every few months. The calcium supplementation is the reason behind it, I assume, as with thumbs they're too small for dusted prey, or at least the froglets are, but i'm pretty sure a calcium rich additive to the soil would work just as effectively, without the negative aspects of clay.




plasma234 said:


> a question to Dave,
> 
> will a 2 54w bulb t5ho fixture be enough for a 4' long x 16" deep tank?


 
Yes, provided it's not immensely high, that will be more than adequate. Of course the choice of tube is important too, the clear consensus is Arcadia Tropical Pro, or Plant Pro. Most suggest Tropical Pro, I personally prefer the light colour of Plant Pro when used alone, although if you're coupling it with a UV tube then the pinkish colour of the Tropical Pro doesn't stand out much.

Hope this helps

Dave


----------



## Paul_c (Mar 11, 2011)

Hey, thanks for all the input guys! I really appreciate it. Although I was hoping for a " here's a link get a bag of that and add a bag of this" type answer! lol
Guess its not that simple and as you say seems to be a lot down to personal preference too.
I guess I got more reading to do! ABG or a varient of it seems to be the way to go. Just one thing though, how do the plants cope with the drop in nutrients after the initial growth spurt? Do they not suffer after being used to such a rich source of nutrient?
This is going to house my first lizard, a crested gecko, so I am going to keep it relatively simple.
As for lighting the exo terra came with the exo terra compact hood, wich I will be sticking with for now. One side will be for plant growth with one of the mini lynx bulbs I have seen recommended, the other side for UV. I am going to plant mainly on the one side with a more open side with maybe just a couple of shade tolerant plants.
However I am not planning on putting the gecko in it for a few months yet so have time rinsed how things go.
Would you recommend holding off with the clean up bugs untill the gecko is in there so they have a food source?
Thanks again
Paul.



_Posted from Reptileforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Dartfrog.co.UK has everything you need except charcoal, which you can get organic charcoal from a petrol station forecourt or find it online. 

ABG stay nutrient rich for a long time, it stays cycled in the viv. 

People say seed the tank a month or do before you put in the inhabitants, so that they get established and also to let the tank settle as you will get the initial mould problem


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Tbh I got my tree fern and a bag of fine orchid bark from swell and saved myself a fair chunk of money than dartfrog. Fiver on the tree fern alone. As for the charcoal, I can't find it anywhere online, any advice plasma?


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Seed the viv now, it'll give the isopod and springs longer to get established and adapt to the conditions in the viv. You should find charcoal for sale for BBQs, just make sure it hasn't got oil added

Dave


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

To find organic charcoal there is a special bbq site. 

You are totally correct about using swell and or surrey, but the op said he wanted a one site option. If you shop around you will save yourself. 

Regards to charcoal, it has to be lumpwood without oil added. Funnily enough this is either the cheapest or the most expensive. I used Sainsburys basics charcoal in mine, as it is just plain bog standard charcoal.


----------



## Paul_c (Mar 11, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> To find organic charcoal there is a special bbq site.
> 
> You are totally correct about using swell and or surrey, but the op said he wanted a one site option. If you shop around you will save yourself.
> 
> Regards to charcoal, it has to be lumpwood without oil added. Funnily enough this is either the cheapest or the most expensive. I used Sainsburys basics charcoal in mine, as it is just plain bog standard charcoal.


well ordered it all with a bit of shopping around to save a few ££. And as I work for Sainsburys I will get a discount on the charcoal, which is nice...
Thanks for all the help, just emailed Airplants, so just need to sort out pipe/sponge/turkey baster for drainage for weekend and I am good to go!
Thanks for all the help.
Paul.


_Posted from Reptileforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

I just use an organic compost from any garden center, mixed with some broken twigs to aid drainage (instead of orchid bark). This is the mix ive used for the past 10 years or more now and never had a problem with plant growth or animals etc. 

The ABG mix is really good for nutirant level, and if you want to go down that route its fine. But the easy options are there too. 

Edit, swell and surrey pets are the cheapest place to buy stuff if you go down that route. They are ace for tree fern fibre. Also the tree fern substrate is really good too. 

Jay


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Ha what do you do for Sainsburys, I'm a baker at Alton branch.


----------



## Paul_c (Mar 11, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> Ha what do you do for Sainsburys, I'm a baker at Alton branch.


shift and commercial at Lancaster.


_Posted from Reptileforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

sweet. 

I have yet to ask counters if they use large deli cups. so i can pinch a few from them rather than buy online :whistling2:

i have already got an empty doughnut fryer oil bucket to store some seeded substrate


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

my sainsbury does not do the charcoal, fudge


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Well, I'm not sure how good sales of Chocolate Fudge would be anway :whistling2:


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

charcoal fudge is all we yorkshire eat fella, nowt better on't rhubarb


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

> Location: Cornwall


I'm surprised the shop has electricity :whistling2:


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

plasma234 said:


> I'm surprised the shop has electricity :whistling2:


it's just a few stalls in a field


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> I'm surprised the shop has electricity :whistling2:


Damn, no comeback from me, as Southampton is such a lovely place, full of such lovely people.....wait a minute......:whistling2:


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Meefloaf said:


> it's just a few stalls in a field


A few stalls? You jammy bugger, all we get is a donkey cart once a week.......apparently its an express shop!


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

my_shed said:


> A few stalls? You jammy bugger, all we get is a donkey cart once a week.......apparently its an express shop!


it's those god awful roads you have, trying to park up at the 'castle' for a gig was a nightmare


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

my_shed said:


> Damn, no comeback from me, as Southampton is such a lovely place, full of such lovely people.....wait a minute......:whistling2:


At least they only have the 5 fingers and toes..


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

plasma234 said:


> At least they only have the 5 fingers and toes..


As opposed to the four fingers and a thumb that normal folk have? wned8:


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

aha!

on a side note, cornwall is a nightmare for supplies, i dont drive, missus has just passed her test, but before that, nearest place for me is carnon downs and it's a good twenty quid in a taxi back (used to get my fish stuff there)


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Yea, more fingers to get their Argos jewellery on :lol2:

Back to topic, abg is a good strong grower. It is not essential but it is widely used and tried and tested recipes take away the guess work which I appreciated. 
With experience you won't have to go by set figures, the same as gauging humidity in a viv.


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

well, i've got me tree fern and orchid bark (oo and leaf litter, magnolia and oak), just waiting till pay day to get the rest and then start playing with the heat and plants etc

Springs and woodlice wise, reckon if i get a single mega pack of each from dartfrog will be okay ? how should i add them, just bung em into the substrate once its in and they've got here ?


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't know about seeding and want to know how to do it myself.
I am interested what woodlice you are going with? I am thinking the small brown and the tropicals, the brown stay on the surface and the tropical whites live in the substrate, sounds like the best of both worlds.


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

well lol i was going for springs and the tropicals, but now you've pointed that out, all three should cover all the bases


----------



## Paul_c (Mar 11, 2011)

I was looking at this, what do you think?
Bioactive Eco system





_Posted from Reptileforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

that does look cool, guess it'd be best to find out what exactly they put in it, dartfrog does a dendrosoil, but that seem the extra mile


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Meefloaf said:


> aha!
> 
> on a side note, cornwall is a nightmare for supplies, i dont drive, missus has just passed her test, but before that, nearest place for me is carnon downs and it's a good twenty quid in a taxi back (used to get my fish stuff there)


But it's worth it to get your hands on a good supply of charcoal fudge?



Paul_c said:


> I was looking at this, what do you think?
> Bioactive Eco system


This sounds quite good. I've usually bought bumper packs from dartfrog, left them to mature for a week or two with a bit of fish food and bunged them in, but I may give this a go, sometimes the cultures from dartfrog seem a little lacking. As for woodlice......depending on the animal they don't seem to last too long. My frogs have eaten every baby louse they find so decimated the populations in their vivs, the cham kills and eats every adult he sees so they were wiped out, and my day geckos eat anything that moves in their vivs.........i'm sick of replacing woodlice!!

Dave


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i'm desperately trying to find a place to get a good supply of pallid cockroaches, dartfrog do tiny amounts, i want to have a bit of a colony to feed my babies.

might be tempted by that eco system, and will probably get two tubs lol just to make sure

and dont worry, i'll stick some charcoal fudge in there to get em going


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

my_shed said:


> . As for woodlice......depending on the animal they don't seem to last too long. My frogs have eaten every baby louse they find so decimated the populations in their vivs, the cham kills and eats every adult he sees so they were wiped out, and my day geckos eat anything that moves in their vivs.........i'm sick of replacing woodlice!!
> 
> Dave



Do you spilt a mega pack and culture your own? You could also have a bucket of ready seeded substrate as your own dendrosoil I know Ade does this. He uses fermentation buckets, mine will be a doughnut oil bucket lol. Maybe getting a mixture of tropicals, small brown and European, might aid survival but you have more experienced than I.


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i was wondering about this, i'm a massive novice, this is my return to frogs since i was a kid, is it best to have some springs going alongside ?


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I think really the feeders set up I am aiming for is

-2 types of ff's maybe 3 if I can get ahold of golden delicious
-bean weevils
-2 species of springs
-2 species of woodlice it was going to include European, but I heard that they hunt flies :|

And the bucket of seeded substrate. I will also buy pea aphids and I might see how small crickets I can get. If they are too big I will just grow them out, breed and any I don't feed will go to the Leo. 

I think its good to have cultures of springs ready to a) reseed the vivs b) they are perfect for froglets, from what I have read.


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i'm getting Milkies (hoping to source them in cornwall but see me getting the missus to drive a bit lol), looking at getting pallid cockroach colony set up as main feed


----------



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Fair plays, I know nothing about roaches, but I think it wise to have a spring culture set up. :2thumb:


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i know nothing about roaches either lol just reading reading reading.


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Paul_c said:


> I was looking at this, what do you think?
> Bioactive Eco system
> 
> 
> ...


if you are not putting darts in it the best bugs are European woodlice and springtails. 

Buy crickets, locust, mealworms and insects for reptiles - The Livefoods Warehouse is the best place for trop springtails. 

ALl of my substrates have a mix of springtails - trop and european, woodlice trop and european, roaches, my non frog tanks also have millipedes in them as well. 

I would always make your own and start a few cultures off as well, its so much easier. 

Jay


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/planted-vivariums/939254-step-step-planted-viv-pics.html

and

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/planted-vivariums/659337-bio-active-substrates-how-why-16.html


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

cheers man, any advice on the best soil mix ?


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Meefloaf said:


> cheers man, any advice on the best soil mix ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Page 2 :whistling2:


----------



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

All this info makes my brain hurt lol cheers man, knew he'd posted in here somewhere


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Meefloaf said:


> cheers man, any advice on the best soil mix ?


lol as above, i just use compost and twigs. 

Compost is cheap and twigs are free lol.

Jay


----------



## dps51 (Oct 3, 2017)

I used compost from wicks added some leaf litter and wood chips you use for a bbq which is food for the woodlice and springtails as is the leaf litter 
with for the hydroballs which I did not use 
I used pea shingle instead £1.99 a bag from wicks I bag did my 90x45x45 exo terra terrarium finished it all of with dry leaves on top


----------

