# mice and rats need killing. any suggestions?



## Vivaria (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi,
just wondering if anyone had any advice on the best way to kill rats and mice of varying ages humanely and quickly in relitvly large numbers?

i have been keeping snakes for a while and now im at the point where it is costing a small fortune to feed them and with brb babies on the way this next year along with a few others im wanting to raise my own feeders for them, one for the price but also because i dont realy trust whats been fed to them and their quality of life when you buy from a commercial unit.

i have read a very interesting post explaining the killing of pinkies and fluffs but how about the bigger ones? there has been some talk of co2 being used but surely either water or elec or a combination of both would be the same sort of death as suffocation on co2.

thanks in advance
Charlie


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## bassy 1019 (Sep 26, 2006)

Buy frozen, would you like to be killed like a poor rat or mouse, if you can't afford to buy the food, don't keep snakes.


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## NickBenger (Nov 18, 2010)

bassy 1019 said:


> Buy frozen, would you like to be killed like a poor rat or mouse, if you can't afford to buy the food, don't keep snakes.


Ignore this person... 

I'm pretty sure Co2 is used most for killing rats aswell as mice. I've never heard of electric shock being used..... *Waits for a more knowledgable person*


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## Vivaria (Sep 13, 2011)

TheDogMan said:


> Ignore this person...
> 
> I'm pretty sure Co2 is used most for killing rats aswell as mice. I've never heard of electric shock being used..... *Waits for a more knowledgable person*


cheers mate, im guessing there are some safety and legal requirements surrounding the purchase of pressurised co2.
ill have to start investigating how to make some kind of chamber or somthing.

thanks again :2thumb:


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

I dislocate the neck.

Place rat on a firm surface holding the base of the tail, put a pencil or screwdriver across the back of the rats neck and push down.
At the same time as you push down poull the tail hard.

Done right this will dislocate the neck and the rat will be dead instantly.

It sounds grim but is a humane way of culling them when done correctly.

Co2 works very well but I haven't done it as I dont need to.


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

Vivaria said:


> cheers mate, im guessing there are some safety and legal requirements surrounding the purchase of pressurised co2.
> ill have to start investigating how to make some kind of chamber or somthing.
> 
> thanks again :2thumb:


buy it from Halfords or a welding supplier mate


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## Vivaria (Sep 13, 2011)

markhill said:


> I dislocate the neck.
> 
> Place rat on a firm surface holding the base of the tail, put a pencil or screwdriver across the back of the rats neck and push down.
> At the same time as you push down poull the tail hard.
> ...


cheers,
so its kind of like killing geese then?

i was thinking co2 so i could kill and freeze a sizable quantity all in one go.

also if i had more than i need (we all know how mice breed) would i be able to sell the rest off to my local petshop or would i need some sort of approval and licence from defra?

thanks again
Charlie


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## Vivaria (Sep 13, 2011)

markhill said:


> buy it from Halfords or a welding supplier mate


what would they sell it as?
a sand blasting chamber or summit?
:2thumb:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

bassy 1019 said:


> Buy frozen, would you like to be killed like a poor rat or mouse, if you can't afford to buy the food, don't keep snakes.


 
What an utterly rediculous thing to say.

Do you think that the commercially bred mice are grown already dead?

Someone has to do the killing.


In fact, in my opinion, if you are unable to do the act yourself, then you have no right buying them already dead. By all means buy them in for convinience purposes, but don't dare imply that I shouldn't keep snakes because I respecct their food enough to grow them and dispatch them myself, making sure they have the best possible lives and the quickest, most humane death possible.:devil:


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## McQuillanX2 (Oct 29, 2009)

bothrops said:


> What an utterly rediculous thing to say.
> 
> Do you think that the commercially bred mice are grown already dead?
> 
> ...


took the words out of my mouth, Silly people :whip:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

OP - 

for details of my methods, see here

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/753957-culling-mice.html


For a gas chamber I bought a CO2 gas cylinder, a brass screw on tap and a length of tube all from halfords.

I then bought a large 10L tubberware cake box, cut a small hole (5p piece sized) in the top and then screwed a couple of pieces of hardboard either side of the lid. Finally I drilled a small hole in the centre of the hardboard and placed the tube from the CO2 canister through it.

When 'doing the deed', Place the mice/rats inside, turn on the CO2 slowly and watch. The rodents will quickly look a little drunk and disorientated and then lie down still. They will still be breathing, but will be unconcious at this point. Then I increase the CO2 to make sure the whole chamber is full, switch it off, plug the exhaust hole with foam/tissue, cover with a dark cloth and leave for 30-40 minutes. All animals will by then be dead and can be used or frozen.




























Hope that helps!


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## eightball (Jan 1, 2011)

bassy 1019 said:


> Buy frozen, would you like to be killed like a poor rat or mouse, if you can't afford to buy the food, don't keep snakes.


hmm and where do you think the frozen ones come from? they die when theyre in the sleep? no, theyre either chucked in a freezer by large breeders or loads thrown into a large co2 chamber and all killed at once

Just knock them on the head, if youve got loads to do, get a box about 1.5ft by 1.5ft with a brick in it, and hit the rats head on it and then just let it go straight in the box, they die pretty quickly, im sure thats much nicer than being thrown in a freezer alive


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

eightball said:


> hmm and where do you think the frozen ones come from? they die when theyre in the sleep? no, theyre either chucked in a freezer by large breeders or loads thrown into a large co2 chamber and all killed at once
> 
> Just knock them on the head, if youve got loads to do, get a box about 1.5ft by 1.5ft with a brick in it, and hit the rats head on it and then just let it go straight in the box, they die pretty quickly, im sure thats much nicer than being thrown in a freezer alive


'pretty quickly' simply isn't good enough if you are using the 'hard surface' method.

If it isn't 'instant' then you're not doing it right.


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## eightball (Jan 1, 2011)

bothrops said:


> 'petty quickly' simply isn't good enough if you are using the 'hard surface' method.
> 
> If it isn't 'instant' then you're not doing it right.


they dont die 'instant' as you say it anyway, even if i was to totally to remove its head from its lower part of its body, it wont just die instant as you say it, same with pretty much everything else, itll take a few seconds still for it to stop reflexes, to stop heart beating etc etc

theres no way to make them die absolutly instantly as far as i know, there may be quicker methods etc but its not the same as instant

also they definatly wont die instantly with the hard surface, its impossible, it may look like theyre dead but the body is still in a state of which it is alive,

if your meaning in terms of which they cant feel anything anymore but dying, thats a different matter, in that case, snapping the spine is by far the best method for that but can be time consuming with non tame rats


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

eightball said:


> they dont die 'instant' as you say it anyway, even if i was to totally to remove its head from its lower part of its body, it wont just die instant as you say it, same with pretty much everything else, itll take a few seconds still for it to stop reflexes, to stop heart beating etc etc
> 
> theres no way to make them die absolutly instantly as far as i know, there may be quicker methods etc but its not the same as instant
> 
> ...


 
I beg to differ. Done correctly, death is instant. The only thing that will happen is the body will go into spasms for a short while as the muscles are instantly starved of oxgen as the heart and brain (therefore the sympathic and parasympathetic pathways of the autonomous nervous systems) have stopped working.

However, if done incorrectly (such as haphazardly chucking them against a brick in a box and leaving them to 'die' - apologies if thats not what you meant with your previous description) then the animal will just be dazed and heamoraged. This will then take a while for the animal to lose conciousness (if at all) and will still be alive as the bleeding either drowns it or the heamoraging causes enough trauma to cause death or it dies from shock.


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## eightball (Jan 1, 2011)

bothrops said:


> I beg to differ. Done correctly, death is instant. The only thing that will happen is the body will go into spasms for a short while as the muscles are instantly starved of oxgen as the heart and brain (therefore the sympathic and parasympathetic pathways of the autonomous nervous systems) have stopped working.
> 
> However, if done incorrectly (such as haphazardly chucking them against a brick in a box and leaving them to 'die' - apologies if thats not what you meant with your previous description) then the animal will just be dazed and heamoraged. This will then take a while for the animal to lose conciousness (if at all) and will still be alive as the bleeding either drowns it or the heamoraging causes enough trauma to cause death or it dies from shock.


i do understand how they die when you hit their head you know and i didnt say that its instant so i dont see what your problem is?

And even still, i wouldnt class them as being 'dead' aka not instantly die until movement had of stopped, unless of course it was totally nerve responces like you said due to no oxygen, but that still isnt absolute instant where there is no oxygen atall


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

bothrops said:


> OP -
> 
> for details of my methods, see here
> 
> ...


thanks bothrops thats a great help. im just starting up my own mice and rat colonies and i know full well that they will have healthy enriched lives with much better care than rodents bred in mass that are distributed to shops across the country. 

i also will know what is going into my rodents and therefore what is going into my snakes. 

with young rodents i will be using the impact to the back of the head method as the co2 is less humane for babies but will be using the co2 method for hoppers up. 

i was interested regarding the comment about electric shock? would this not be useful for young? 

is there a way of putting the babies in a sleepy mode before the impact method?

i thought something along the lines of the stuff you put on babies pillows to aid sleep, on cotton wall in a box with them before the impact method so if they are old enough to be mobile they would be in a sleepy state and therefore less stressed? i know it must sound silly :blush:


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i think im talking about something like kava oil.


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

everyones seen E.T right?

Whats them cotton wool balls that they put in the jar with the frogs when he's at school and all the frogs get away?
Could they be used to cull rodents?


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

markhill said:


> everyones seen E.T right?
> 
> Whats them cotton wool balls that they put in the jar with the frogs when he's at school and all the frogs get away?
> Could they be used to cull rodents?


i imagine thats soda and vinegar on cotton wall - produces co2


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

markhill said:


> everyones seen E.T right?
> 
> Whats them cotton wool balls that they put in the jar with the frogs when he's at school and all the frogs get away?
> Could they be used to cull rodents?


Chloroform.


Useful, but not that easy to get hold of!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

eightball said:


> i do understand how they die when you hit their head you know and i didnt say that its instant so i dont see what your problem is?
> 
> And even still, i wouldnt class them as being 'dead' aka not instantly die until movement had of stopped, unless of course it was totally nerve responces like you said due to no oxygen, but that still isnt absolute instant where there is no oxygen atall


 
My issue is that you described the 'brick in a box' method as 'pretty quick'. That, to me, implied that the rats will fall into the box after hitting the brick and will die from the impact at some non-specific point after the event.

It takes a lot of force to kill a sub-adult/adult rat using the hard surface method and I feel that it is therefore too prone to mistakes to be 100% successful. Therefore I would not use it as a method of euthanasia for anything larger than a hopper.

Also, animals can certainly be completely and indisputably dead and still be twitching (a captive bolt, followed by a pithing will definitely kill a pig instantly and completely, but it will still twitch and kick as the muscle go into anoxic spasm). However, that doesn't, by default, mean that a twitching, spasming rat is actually instantly dead and if not done properly could be in quite considerable pain for quite some time.


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## RitchieG1975 (Feb 13, 2010)

I would say build a co2 chamber, its the best way to do it


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## eightball (Jan 1, 2011)

bothrops said:


> My issue is that you described the 'brick in a box' method as 'pretty quick'. That, to me, implied that the rats will fall into the box after hitting the brick and will die from the impact at some non-specific point after the event.
> 
> It takes a lot of force to kill a sub-adult/adult rat using the hard surface method and I feel that it is therefore too prone to mistakes to be 100% successful. Therefore I would not use it as a method of euthanasia for anything larger than a hopper.
> 
> Also, animals can certainly be completely and indisputably dead and still be twitching (a captive bolt, followed by a pithing will definitely kill a pig instantly and completely, but it will still twitch and kick as the muscle go into anoxic spasm). However, that doesn't, by default, mean that a twitching, spasming rat is actually instantly dead and if not done properly could be in quite considerable pain for quite some time.


I said into a box for a reason, the unlikely chance the rat stays alive and you just put it on the floor and the next minute its under the floorboards in our attic it wont be very easy to get it out from under there

Ive never yet come to the point of culling anything larger than 100g and the rat dies 'pretty quick' as i said before, aka hit its head, it moves for quite a few seconds and then totally stops (entire body is relaxed aka its quite clearly not still alive after that)

I guess my method isnt the best, i know its not the best, but its by far the easiest and they are dead in a couple of seconds so next to no pain, by the sounds of it, the death the of the rats the way i cull them and the way by snapping there neck it sounds like they are both pretty similar, maybe its just me, or maybe its because they are pretty much the same as surely the neck snaps from the force anyway? im sure my neck would snap if someone wacked it that hard

Everyone to their own method, likewise i am to my own method, if i knew my rats where clearly in pain for a period of time i would have atleast found another way

Either way, im sure all methods are better than them being thrown in a freezer live..


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## Podarcis (Mar 1, 2010)

Just got rid of my multimammate colony. They were very slow-growing, a bit whiffy and not that cheap to look after if doing it well. Basically, I was spending as much time on them as the snakes! I know there are cheaper and easier ways (and species) to use, but, unless you have the space, time and facilities to do it on a fairly large scale, I'd think long and hard about it.

I used a gas mix of nitrogen and CO2 (used to put the gas in draught Guinness). It was very quick, applied in a similar system to those mentioned above.


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## beaniebopps (Oct 4, 2009)

I've never had my own colony, but I have worked in a well known Zoo in the UK (which I don't feel I should name because how they cull is the Zoo's own business). We snapped their spines by holding the mouse firmly where the tail joins, and doing one firm whack of their heads off the corner of a solid worksurface. This was always instant, there was never anything more than muscle spasm for a second or two.

I'm a lover of all animals and a firm believer that breeding your own mice and rats is much more humane than buying them frozen - you are giving them a better life and you are in control of how they die.

If I had the space/money I would keep my own cows, pigs and chickens and slaughter them myself, rather than buying meat from unhappy, overcrowded and inhumanely slaughtered animals.


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## Vivaria (Sep 13, 2011)

a big thankyou to all who have replied to this post.

a co2 chamber is deffinately looking like the best option.

does anyone know if i have any killed and frozen mice or rats left over could i sell them or would that require a licence or some sort of legislational stuff :2thumb:.

cheers again


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

im pretty sure its not illegale to sell dead frozen rodents?


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## slayer42 (Apr 30, 2007)

everyone keeps talking about an instant death..... personally i've never killed rodents for my snakes, but any death is an instant death.... your alive, your alive, your alive, then your dead. I think the issue most people are concerned about is making the death as painless as possible, which would be the co2 method I would guess.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

only for sizes hopper up.


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## billbo1986 (Aug 16, 2011)

I have my own colony of rats just started and i will be using a co2 chamber due to the fact that the rats (should) be comfortable and not realise that its happening i think thats the main thing and then slow release of the gas until they are put to sleep. Surely the only truly painless way to be certain.(Do we really know they dont feel anything if whacked off a table or using a hard surface.... no, in fairness we dont know that they dont feel intense pain just before i mean they are smaller animals a split second to us may span out due to the fact that they are much smaller than us and may indeed have a different perception of time for all we know for sure!!).

My point being i feel that co2 used with a cannister and a regulating valve to bring about anaesthesia through slow introduction of the gas(preferably in a chamber with perhaps bedding etc. to make them feel as comfortable as poss) to the rats then a lethal dose after confirmation that they are under, that is the only way i will ever do it.

When it comes to the babies however i am stumped due to their respiratory systems being better than older ones to cope with the Mother rats sitting on them for the warmth and whatnot, how do you guys deal with pinkys/pups up to hoppers for euthanising? ( ive heard of a flick to the head method but it may well go against all that i just said in previous paragraphs?

Billy


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## Smigsy (Jul 30, 2009)

Vivaria said:


> Hi,
> just wondering if anyone had any advice on the best way to kill rats and mice of varying ages humanely and quickly in relitvly large numbers?
> 
> i have been keeping snakes for a while and now im at the point where it is costing a small fortune to feed them and with brb babies on the way this next year along with a few others im wanting to raise my own feeders for them, one for the price but also because i dont realy trust whats been fed to them and their quality of life when you buy from a commercial unit.
> ...


Co2 or neck break as suggested, co2 would be best for alot at once it would be quite time consuming to kill each individually. Personally I would want to use gas as if you didn't do the press and pull quite right then it would nasty for the rodent. I can't imagine water being the same kind of suffocation though as there would be alot of panic for the animal where it can't breathe but it's my understanding gas makes them drowsy and they go to sleep forever. I have heard of electricity being used but not sure how or what voltage would be used to make it humane without cooking the rat or mouse.


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## eightball (Jan 1, 2011)

ive never thought or heard of electricity of being a means of culing rodents but as long as voltage/amperage is fairly low i would have thought it would kill it pretty quickly and not cook it either, unless you held the cables on the rodent for a long period of time of course


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

eightball said:


> ive never thought or heard of electricity of being a means of culing rodents but as long as voltage/amperage is fairly low i would have thought it would kill it pretty quickly and not cook it either, unless you held the cables on the rodent for a long period of time of course


Rat Zapper Electric Rat and Mouse Trap On Sale


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