# Hot snakes..??



## Jake201 (Mar 26, 2008)

Any idea what the best hot snake i could buy is .. something to keep me on my toes to get a good ruff idea what Dwa snakes are like ???

=]


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## Draven (Mar 7, 2009)

this question is asked alot lol..

there isn't any good starter snake to introduce yourself to venomous IMO.

hoggies? false water cobras? again both mildly venomous but really, nothing has the speed of a venomous snake.


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## Jake201 (Mar 26, 2008)

Draven said:


> this question is asked alot lol..
> 
> there isn't any good starter snake to introduce yourself to venomous IMO.
> 
> hoggies? false water cobras? again both mildly venomous but really, nothing has the speed of a venomous snake.


what about Mangroves ?? i here they a pain to get feeding thoo =[


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## Draven (Mar 7, 2009)

even they couldn't prepare you for venomous.

Draven


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## Jake201 (Mar 26, 2008)

Draven said:


> even they couldn't prepare you for venomous.
> 
> Draven


 
right i am not wanting to go towards venomus thats the thing im just after something that will keep me on my toes if you understand i have had burms boa angry boas etc and stuff just after something a little more ... angry and quicker ..


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Atb, gtp?


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## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

I wouldnt have a mangrove given to me, they are a nightmare, very few keepers do well with them. (WC specimens, that is!)

Cheers,

Dave


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## Jake201 (Mar 26, 2008)

pythondave82 said:


> I wouldnt have a mangrove given to me, they are a nightmare, very few keepers do well with them. (WC specimens, that is!)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave


as in ???
:whistling2:


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## TW (May 1, 2007)

There really cant be. People have mentioned Tai Beauties in threads like this before and its laughable!


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## stacy (May 9, 2009)

i had a giant hognose once that was like lightening and very grump all the time


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## Agkistrodon (Dec 12, 2008)

Anything fast, bity, and constantly trying to escape that you can get hook practice with is good, but nothing really prepares you well. The best thing would be to try and find a venomous keeper in your area that keeps what you'd like to and try and get some experience with their snakes. Nothing is better to train on for venomous snakes than venomous snakes, and under the watchful eye of a pro you'll get your mistakes pointed out and hopefully won't get bitten.


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## milsom (Nov 14, 2008)

Variety is the spice of life...and might just save yours!
The greater the variety of snakes you get experience with, the better; fast, slow, big, small, arboreal, terrestrial, diurnal, nocternal, predictable, unpredictable.... the more you get hand on experience with, the more you learn to read snakes, and that's what it's all about!


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## milsom (Nov 14, 2008)

You can have the best guy in the World tell you how to hook an Egyptian Cobra, but if it decides to do something wierd, it's down to your own experience to pre-empt and deal with it. You cant teach anyone that!


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*

If you want a feisty snake to keep you on your toes, buy a Chinese king rat snake...non venomous, snappy and fast! (buy a female for extra temper )
*


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Most people start with an eyelash viper or a waglers, otherwise its personal preference. Snakes like the trimeresurus have a bite that although is venomous, with a dose of antivenom will not cause any long term damage to nerves etc like it would from say a cobra etc *


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

*Gopher snakes are angry lol buy a bull snake or a chinese king rat and then tell us if you want something more feistier *


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

I think Ty has summed it up nicely. The more snakes you work with and the more years you put behind you doing so , the better you will read snake behaviour.

But , as pointed out, alway expect the unexpected from whatever you interact with


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## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, all comes down to experience and confidence with the ability to predict behaviour


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Scarlet 
Just noticed you have ornate flying snake , looovely species! Got any pics , and how is it doing in captivity?

All the best,
Al


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Jake201 said:


> Any idea what the best hot snake i could buy is .. something to keep me on my toes to get a good ruff idea what Dwa snakes are like ???
> 
> =]


Something to keep you on your toes eh? This topic is the like proverbial bad penny, keeps coming up again and again.

The simple answer is, there is no snake, no matter how fast, flighty, or snappy it is that will prepare you for dealing with your first "genuine" venomous snake on your own. All they will do is give you a better grounding in snake handling in general and, as Ty says, better enable you to "read" behaviour and maybe pre-empt the snake's actions.


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## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

I found that the nose-horned vipers (Vipera ammodytes) are fairly good to start with. I use to keep them. However, as mentioned above, each to their experiences. Oh yes, they are bloody fast too. If one decides to be a t:censor:no snake hook will stop them from scaring the living :censor: out of you. Personally I wouldn't risk it until you have alot of experience with other snappy, aggressive sods. I have a couple of Biak GTPs and they are right snappy gits. Also got a trio of ETBs and believe me they are a challenge.


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## Jake201 (Mar 26, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> something to keep you on your toes eh? This topic is the like proverbial bad penny, keeps coming up again and again.
> 
> The simple answer is, there is no snake, no matter how fast, flighty, or snappy it is that will prepare you for dealing with your first "genuine" venomous snake on your own. All they will do is give you a better grounding in snake handling in general and, as ty says, better enable you to "read" behaviour and maybe pre-empt the snake's actions.


 
like i said before i am not going to get a venomous snake i was just asking for like a very quick and snappy snake that i could look after as if it was a dwa...

Just to see how they must be but even worse i bet...

Thanks everybody


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## Seal (Mar 2, 2009)

If you want an unpredictable snake that will keep you on your toes then i will mention what has already been mentioned as "laughable". 
A Blue Beauty Ratsnake/Thai.
These things are unpredictable at best and can move quickly bite and escape. It will keep you on your toes. My girlfriend got to close when i was holding him once and got bitten on the face. So even though its laughable its still a good try. Quick, unpredictable and a nasty temper.
I might sell you mine


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## dgreenway2005 (May 4, 2009)

gaboon vipers, these strike amazingly quick


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## Cleopatra the Royal (Nov 29, 2008)

Start with a Copperhead then move up the scale, e.g. Copperhead, Pygmy Rattlers, Eyelash Vipers, Pit Vipers, Gaboon Vipers, Cobras then Elapids. Get good experience with the first ones before moving up - don't jump strait to cobras!
Get some training first!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Cleopatra the Royal said:


> Start with a Copperhead then move up the scale, e.g. Copperhead, Pygmy Rattlers, Eyelash Vipers, Pit Vipers, Gaboon Vipers, Cobras then Elapids. Get good experience with the first ones before moving up - don't jump strait to cobras!
> Get some training first!


pygmy rattlers are probably a step less than copperheads, although thats possibly a bold comment :lol2:


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

dgreenway2005 said:


> gaboon vipers, these strike amazingly quick


That's what I'd suggest.

Gaboons look a good beginners snake if you want to be kept on your toes : victory:


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Dexter said:


> That's what I'd suggest.
> 
> Gaboons look a good beginners snake if you want to be kept on your toes : victory:


Gaboon & beginner, from what I have seen & read are two words that should not be used in the same sentence.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

I'm from the opinion that venemous snakes should only be kept by those who research, extract venom, or run a small zoo.

It's like playing with fire. One day you'll get burnt. I've seen so many experienced people getting bitten, that you realise experience won't count much.

If you use all the right gear and you're extremely cautious, you should be able to work with hots. However you can have bags of experience, but if you're handling them on a daily basis not using the right equipment, one day your luck will run out.

That's why you see so many zoo keepers and renowned herpetologists who got bitten or killed. Maybe in those situations an average person would not have been bitten because they would have taken all measures to protect themselves and would not take any chances.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Dexter said:


> I'm from the opinion that venemous snakes should only be kept by those who research, extract venom, or run a small zoo.
> 
> It's like playing with fire. One day you'll get burnt. I've seen so many experienced people getting bitten, that you realise experience won't count much.
> 
> ...


I would hate for you to run the country, whats next, motor bikes only allowed for those that race them?

Trampolines allowed only for those who compete in the olympics? The beauty of living in a (relitively) free society is that as long as you meet the requirements felt neccesary so you will not harm anyone apart from yourself, you can partake in the keeping of dangerous animals...


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Dexter said:


> I've seen so many experienced people getting bitten, that you realise experience won't count much.


Interesting statement you made!

How many?

Like *Owzy* said in your world would you ban everything that has some form of risk associated to it?

Just because you keep *venomous* species does not mean you will end up being bitten, responsible keepers will take every possible precaution to minimise the risk.

When you ride a motorcycle you wear a helmet and so on!


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Owzy said:


> I would hate for you to run the country, whats next, motor bikes only allowed for those that race them?


Well, I'm not into politics, and would never run anything never mind a country.

Also, if I happened to run the country I'd be very democratic. I'm very happy with the way it is. If you meet all requirements and get a DWA license, good luck to you.

Unfortunately I've seen so many times teenagers and brainless people getting venemous snakes for the wrong reasons, but if you are a responsible keeper that's fine by me and probably everyone.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

slippery42 said:


> Interesting statement you made!
> 
> How many?
> 
> ...


I never said keeping venomous snakes should be banned. I said that IMO venemous snakes are not like the average pet, because of the risks to the keeper and others, and should be kept by people who have reasons to keep snakes like that, being a researcher, extract venom (which is a very profitable business by the way) or if you're running a zoo because venomous snakes always attract a lot of interest.

But again, I never said keeping hots should be banned.

If you google, you will see that there's been quite a few zoo keepers, etc who got bitten and some cases were fatal. I've seen quite a few documentaries in my life about snake bites, and it's not very unusual.

What I'm trying to say, is that there are things in life that the more you do the best you become. 

IMO venomous snakes are like carrying guns. If you want to be sure you won't have an accident when cleaning a weapon, don't have a weapon in the first place.

There are many venomous snakes keeper who have been bitten during their lives. I never was, because I never worked with hots (probably will work with them one day).

So the likelihood of someone getting bitten will be proportional of how much time he spends working with hots.


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## Melonhelmet (Nov 11, 2008)

Green Tree Python? Nippy yes?


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Metro -- Keeper at zoo bitten by Brazilian pit viper

The Hindu : Kerala / Thrissur News : Snake-keeper bitten by cobra


*October 29, 2007 Port St. Lucie, FL:* Raymond Hunter, 44, something of a local guru on poisonous snakes, remained in critical condition late today after one of his pets, a diamondback rattlesnake, sunk its fangs into his right hand early Saturday morning. In 1999, Hunter pleaded no contest to charges of fraudulently obtaining a controlled substance, for which he was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison. This is hardly the first time a snakebite has sent the Cobraman to the hospital. Hunter's website, cobraman.net, chronicles his past bites with photos of himself in intensive care and close-ups of his own fingers, gnarled, swollen, discolored and bloodied from the bites of vipers, cobras and rattlesnakes.

*A case in Germany:*

The case of a zoo keeper who was bitten on the left finger by a venomous snake (Vipera xanthina) is reported. The administration of antivenom prevented the development of systemic poisoning but had no effect on the extent of the local complications. A compartment syndrome with a concomitant severe reaction at the bite site required fasciotomy of the upper and lower arm. The extensor tendon of the involved finger ruptured spontaneously, many weeks after wound healing was completed. Therefore, delayed local complications following snake bites may occur, even if signs of systemic poisoning are missing.

*Study about snake bites:*

_Background._ Five cases of illegitimate bite by captive specimens of the Gaboon viper (_Bitis gabonica_) snake have demonstrated the dangers of keeping exotic African snakes in captivity. _Case series_. Four cases necessitated hospitalization for the bite and were characterized by progressive swelling of the affected limb, local necrosis and hemorrhagic edema near the wound, chest tightness and prolonged coagulation times. However, platelet counts were not altered. All patients received antivenom and had uneventful recovery, except for one who underwent amputation of a distal phalanx and one who required debridement. In the fifth case, the patient died without being able to summon help. _Discussion_. The results of this case series emphasize the need for extreme care to be exercised with the captivity of exotic snakes, such as the Gaboon viper. The increasing popularity of this snake as a captive pet predicates the need for private collectors to have a pre-existing treatment strategy with their local emergency centers. Such arrangements may facilitate the treatment of envenomation by this snake.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

*Another one of gaboon bitting its keeper:*

A 42-year-old snake breeder summoned the ambulance after a fully-grown Gaboon viper (_Bitis gabonica_) had bitten him on the dorsum of his left hand. Fifteen minutes later the ambulance crew found the patient lying on the floor capable of communicating. An initial check showed blood pressure of 60/30 and a heart rate of 160/min. Fang marks were clearly visible on the dorsum of his left hand. Intravenous fluid nd adrenalin administration were successful in stabilising the patient ’s condition to some extent. At the same time the local poison controller was sought via the local police. The pager in the patient’s trouser pocket, however, indicated that he was actually the person sought. Meanwhile the patient’s condition underwent generalised deterioration and he developed severe angioneurotic oedema without dyspnoea or stridor. He managed to advise medical staff where he kept the appropriate antivenom. While given adrenalin on a continuous basis the patient was taken to the local hospital as rapidly as possible.


I'll stop here not to bore anyone, but there are hundreds of cases of zoo keepers and experienced people who got bitten and some killed by venomous snakes if you google.

There is a famous case where a woman who was the most experienced keeper of venomous snakes and the one who trained the staff of how to work with hots in a safe way, got bitten by a gaboon and died. That was in the US a few years ago.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

Mate, putting those articles up was flipping pointless. Youve clearly just googled 'zoo snake bite' or something. I could google 'killed by a horse' right now, get some articles, and tell everyone horses should only be owned by proffesional institutions! And your right, you didnt say venomous snake keeping should be banned, however you did say 'I'm from the opinion that venomous snakes should only be kept by those who research, extract venom, or run a small zoo.', implying that private DWA keeping should be banned.....


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Azemiops said:


> Mate, putting those articles up was flipping pointless. Youve clearly just googled 'zoo snake bite' or something. I could google 'killed by a horse' right now, get some articles, and tell everyone horses should only be owned by proffesional institutions! And your right, you didnt say venomous snake keeping should be banned, however you did say 'I'm from the opinion that venomous snakes should only be kept by those who research, extract venom, or run a small zoo.', implying that private DWA keeping should be banned.....


You took the words right out of my mouth!

Dexters last post does seem pointless.:bash:


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

More flawed than creationism...


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Azemiops said:


> Mate, putting those articles up was flipping pointless. Youve clearly just googled 'zoo snake bite' or something. I could google 'killed by a horse' right now, get some articles, and tell everyone horses should only be owned by proffesional institutions! And your right, you didnt say venomous snake keeping should be banned, however you did say 'I'm from the opinion that venomous snakes should only be kept by those who research, extract venom, or run a small zoo.', implying that private DWA keeping should be banned.....


Of course I googled, because one person asked how many as in implying there was not many cases, but there are hundreds of very experienced keepers and breeders who get bitten.

And I'll repeat becauseto make things clear.

I wanted to say that if a person wants a pet snake to be handling regularly, there are all sorts of shapes, sizes and colours of non-venemous snakes that would be ideal.

And saying that I think venomous snakes should be kept for different reasons is just my opinion, but I'd never ban people from keeping hots as long as they met the requirements of getting a DWA lincense. I'm all in favour of that.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

slippery42 said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth!
> 
> Dexters last post does seem pointless.:bash:


I've already explained and if you can't understand, just let it drop.

The only thing I'm against is venomous snakes being sold freely, where the keeper can be a complete twat and still gets hold of something extremely dangerous to him and others.

Unfortunately the world is filled with numpties. 

For instance, you all made ridiculous comparisons with motorbikes and horses.

I'm against those brainless prats that ride their bikes at 200 mph on the highways to stick clips on youtube, and often kill themselves or other people who happen to cross their way.

So I'm against that those people were not assessed properly and were allowed to drive. But my wife is a biker, and most people I know who are bikers are responsible.

So I'd not ban anything, just trying and prevent that stupid people could own or do things that they are clearly not mature and responsible enough to have.

Just common sense.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

Dexter said:


> Of course I googled, because one person asked how many as in implying there was not many cases, but there are hundreds of very experienced keepers and breeders who get bitten.
> 
> And I'll repeat becauseto make things clear.
> 
> ...


Thats fine Dexter, you are of course entitled to your own opinion. However, you must expect people to come on here and defend their hobby when someone makes a statement like you did. If i was to say 'i dont think anyone should be allowed to keep boas because they get over 5ft and are strong, so could potentially kill a child', im sure you would take offence.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Dexter said:


> It's like playing with fire. One day you'll get burnt.* I've seen so many experienced people getting bitten*, that you realise experience won't count much.


I know I shouldn't, but I can't resist joining in now...............

Excatly how many experienced people have you geen getting bitten? I would venture that you have based this upon Discovery or animal planet documentaries that you've seen. Not from personal experience.

Call me a w*nker if you want, but I'm going to ask you to "put your money where your mouth is" who have you *seen* getting bitten? Not seen pictures of in a book, on Google or on the TV. I would guess that the number would be somewhere between zero and none. How many keepers do you know personally that have been bitten by a venomous snake? have you discussed with any of these (if there are any) how they came to be bitten?

Excatly what are you basing that statement upon? If it's purely upon what you have seen on TV, read in a book or Googled, then kindly leave the discussion.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Azemiops said:


> Thats fine Dexter, you are of course entitled to your own opinion. However, you must expect people to come on here and defend their hobby when someone makes a statement like you did. If i was to say 'i dont think anyone should be allowed to keep boas because they get over 5ft and are strong, so could potentially kill a child', im sure you would take offence.


Well, I put up with that for 10 years, so I'm more than used to sticking to my guns.

But part of the misunderstanding is because of translation.

There are things I explain in my mother tongue that would never be interpreted in a different way.

For instance, I could say that IMO people should not smoke because smoking kills 5 million people a year and cost tax payers a fortunate.

But there is a long way between me saying people should not smoke to me saying that if I had it my way I'd ban smoking.

For instance, I'm completely against smoking, but I'm against a full ban on smoking pubs. I think people should be able to choose whether they want to go to a smoking pub or a non-smoking pub.

But I'm all in favour of responsible people keeping hots as long as they have a license.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Dexter said:


> I'm from the opinion that venemous snakes should only be kept by those who research, extract venom, or run a small zoo.


 
That doesn't tally with your last post. Which is it, should hots only be kept by those with a scientific interest or should it remain as it is?


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

stuartdouglas said:


> I know I shouldn't, but I can't resist joining in now...............
> 
> Excatly how many experienced people have you geen getting bitten? I would venture that you have based this upon Discovery or animal planet documentaries that you've seen. Not from personal experience.
> 
> ...


Hi mate, I already explained, and I'm tired of arguing about something that is completely pointless.

But there are loads of cases well documented, and if you want to ignore it, so be it.

Each to their own.

If you read all my posts (and not only the wants you want to pick on) you will see I have nothing against responsible people keeping hots as long as they meet the requirements and have a license to prove they went through a process and were approved for keeping hots.

If you want to ignore the hundreds of well documented cases where zoo keeprs, breeders, etc got bitten, and pretend it's very safe and these things never happen, then good luck to you.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

By the way, it all started because I found ridiculous comments like: what hot should I get to keep me on my toes ?

Or things in other thread where you can clearly see it's only people who want to show off or impress their mates.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

stuartdouglas said:


> That doesn't tally with your last post. Which is it, should hots only be kept by those with a scientific interest or should it remain as it is?


That's the post I made that will answer your question:

' But part of the misunderstanding is because of translation.

There are things I explain in my mother tongue that would never be interpreted in a different way.

For instance, I could say that IMO people should not smoke because smoking kills 5 million people a year and cost tax payers a fortunate.

But there is a long way between me saying people should not smoke to me saying that if I had it my way I'd ban smoking. '


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

Your right Dexter, it is pointless. Your contradicting yourself by first saying on proffesionals should keep venomous, and then saying your fine with it aslong as people have a license. And you keep coming up with the same point; hundreds of people get bitten by venomous snakes. Well i can find hundreds of accounts of people being killed doing pretty much anything if i looked hard enough. So your 'opinion' is backed up by a pretty crappy argument.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Azemiops said:


> Your right Dexter, it is pointless. Your contradicting yourself by first saying on proffesionals should keep venomous, and then saying your fine with it aslong as people have a license. And you keep coming up with the same point; hundreds of people get bitten by venomous snakes. Well i can find hundreds of accounts of people being killed doing pretty much anything if i looked hard enough. So your 'opinion' is backed up by a pretty crappy argument.


1) I'm not contradicting myself, already tried to explain several times, and just did again with the smoking argument. Unfortunately if you still can get it, then I give up

2) I don't keep coming with that argument. It was Stuart who brought it back, and I just tried and prove my point that it is dangerous because there are loads of documenhted cases, and having kept and being bitten by snakes several times, I know how accidents happen.

But as I tried many times, I'll say again that I'm in favour of responsible keepers with license to keep hots.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Dexter said:


> Well, I put up with that for 10 years, so I'm more than used to sticking to my guns.
> 
> But part of the misunderstanding is because of translation.
> 
> ...


Im sorry but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about

Stop using examples where there is no research or proof in what you are saying...

In fact the tax revenue from smoking is much much much MUCH more than the cost of repairing the damage these smokers do to themselves every year... so once again wrong.

Mabie time to give up?


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Owzy said:


> Im sorry but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about
> 
> Stop using examples where there is no research or proof in what you are saying...
> 
> ...


 
Well, I don't give up easy, but surely I will not argue in this thread about the smoking thing which is not appropriate.

But you're completely wrong and it's completely the other way around. Whta's made in taxes doesn't cover nothing compared to the cost and impact in hospitals, never mind the disctructions 5 million death a year cause in their families and relatives.

I lost dear people because of smoking so I'll definitely not get into the argument.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Owzy said:


> Mabie time to give up?


By the way mate, I can see you just joined the forum, and as it happens you and some of the others are very fresh and ready to argue just for the sake of arguing.

Look at the amount of posts and when I joint the forum, and you will realise that if I weren't thicked-skinned I'd have left the forum ages ago.

I happened to have a lot of contacts with keepers and breeders in this forum, and respect and am respected by most people, including moderators and the owner of the forum who's a friend of mine.

I'll try and say for the last time, I respect your opinion, it's all well and good by me, do whatever you want, if we have different points of view here or there, that's part of life, and as I said many times if you have a license and you are a responsible keeper, I have no problem with you at all. 

Keep up the good work.

But don't get on my tits just for the sake of it.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Dexter said:


> Well, I don't give up easy, but surely I will not argue in this thread about the smoking thing which is not appropriate.
> 
> But you're completely wrong and it's completely the other way around. Whta's made in taxes doesn't cover nothing compared to the cost and impact in hospitals, never mind the disctructions 5 million death a year cause in their families and relatives.
> 
> *I lost dear people because of smoking* so I'll definitely not get into the argument.


Thats a shame but has nothing to do with it...

I'll just leave you with this then

Facts & Figures : Tax Revenue from Tobacco

Cancer Research UK : Smoking estimated to cost NHS £5bn a year

ps. I mentioned nothing of the emotional cost, just pointing out the finacial costs, of which you used as an example many times.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Owzy said:


> Thats a shame but has nothing to do with it...
> 
> I'll just leave you with this then
> 
> ...


That means absolutely nothing. 

By the way, just picked a point in one of the links you sent:

*Researchers estimate that around 109,164 people died as a direct result of smoking in 2005.*

That on its own is priceless. That's nealy 110 thousand families who had there lives shattered for losing a dear memeber of their families.

There are a lot more costs that are not accounted for.

But again, that's not the place to discuss this.

That's an off-topic subject.

And if you're smart enough and read my post, you will see I used the argument purely to say that what one thinks is right doesn't mean that you are saying that thing should be banned.

Maybe when you grow up you will understand.

Good luck.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

Dexter said:


> That means absolutely nothing.
> 
> By the way, just picked a point in one of the links you sent:
> 
> ...


Wait I just caught one of your toys, it managed to reach all the way here from your buggy

Good throw!


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Owzy said:


> Wait I just caught one of your toys, it managed to reach all the way here from your buggy
> 
> Good throw!


Sorry, didn't get that.

By the way, I won't get into personal arguments with you or anyone, because I don't think it's fair.

You don't know me, I don't know you.

We are just having a civilised chat in a forum for lack of anything better to do.

I bet you're a genuinely nice bloke, and pleasant person if we met one day.

Just have a look at my dozens of positive feedback I have (left by people who I never knew before), and you will see I'm not a bad person either, and deserve respect by anyone.

Sorry if you misinterpreted something I said, I tried my best to explain my point, sorry if I wasn't able to.


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## CrazyWolf84 (Apr 30, 2009)

wtf r u all mad? :lol2:
mm.
1 corn and 1 avic versi sling 
i dont think my corn will ever bite me or anyone else.
im a lil more worried bout being bitten by my bros python, i think thts rational. 
but there is no f:censor:ing way i would chance being bitten by a snake that has 
venom of any kind. 

there are my thoughts


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

CrazyWolf84 said:


> wtf r u all mad? :lol2:
> mm.
> 1 corn and 1 avic versi sling
> i dont think my corn will ever bite me or anyone else.
> ...


I think I am as im still reading this thread...


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Dexter said:


> 1) *I'm not contradicting myself*, already tried to explain several times, and just did again with the smoking argument. Unfortunately if you still can get it, then I give up
> 
> 2) I don't keep coming with that argument. It was Stuart who brought it back, and I just tried and prove my point that it is dangerous because there are loads of documenhted cases, and having kept and being bitten by snakes several times, I know how accidents happen.
> 
> But as I tried many times, I'll say again that I'm in favour of responsible keepers with license to keep hots.


Did you or did you not, in your first post clearly say that venomous snakes should only be kept by "those who research, extract venom, or keep a small zoo"

then, in a later post, did you or did you not directly contradict that by saying that you were all in favour of people keeping hots as long as they met the requirements of the DWA?

call me Mr Thickie, but if that isn't a direct contradiction of the first post then I don't know what is.

Anyway, terrier that i am, back to your original post, you stated that you had " seen so many experienced people getting bitten" 

I ask you again, how many "experienced people" have you actually *seen *getting bitten? How many keepers do you know *personally*, that have experienced a bite from a venomous snake?

Answers please, not more diversionary backpedalling...................

opinions are one thing, but you have made a statement that, based upon your personal experience of seeing keepers get bitten, venomous snakes do not belong in private collections.
I really take issue with that, the DWA act is draconian enough as it is, without ill-informed folks spouting off on a subject they have absolutely zero knowledge of over and above that afforded by the Great God Google.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

stuartdouglas said:


> Did you or did you not, in your first post clearly say that venomous snakes should only be kept by "those who research, extract venom, or keep a small zoo"
> 
> then, in a later post, did you or did you not directly contradict that by saying that you were all in favour of people keeping hots as long as they met the requirements of the DWA?
> 
> ...


Hi Stuart, I've already explained all I could. I'm not going to argue anymore, I think you're a nice bloke too, and I've seen many of your posts before and have nothing against you.

I' won't be repeating myself over and over.

If you could not get it, sorry.

By the way, people look at me as a keeper.

I consider myself a lot more than a keeper. I invested heavily and spend 5 years going to university to study business administration.

But if I compare the amount of time I spend working with snakes, reading about them, watching documentaries, talking to renowned breeders, talking to biologists, vets, etc, I get to the conclusion that even though I haven't a degree in herpetology, and I'm not as knwoledgable as I'd like to be, I have indeed spent more time in my life working, caring and reading about snakes than any other thing in my life.

The same might apply to you and others. You don't happen to just have a hobby of keeping snakes. If you are serious about it, you reaserch things, you observe a lot, you read, you learn more, you are interested about diseases, etc.

So I include people who are licensed and work with hots reponsibly and want to learn as much as possible about certain species rather than just showing off that they have a cobra shoved in a viv, as a person who research.

That would cover the first point, and probably the majority of people who keep hots in this country.

And again, if you still haven't understood, I'm running out of ways of explaining the same thing, but I'm not contradicting myself, and if you still disagree with everything I said (having understood it or not), fair enough.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Dexter, I have nothing against you personally either, however, you haven't answered the most basic question I asked. I could go on, but all I will take from this is the inference that you don't personally know anyone who has been bitten, you haven't actually seen anyone get bitten, experienced or otherwise..................

therefore, your opinions don't count for as much as you would like.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Stuart, the point you're banging about is ridiculous. I've never seen people being run over by trucks, I never seen people commiting suicide, I've never seen people falling off a cliff, etc.

It doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It's well documented the hundreds of cases, so what are you on about ?

I know of many people (including myself) who have been bitten by snakes in their lives (I've been bitten several times, even though I'd not have taken the same chances if I were dealing with a venemous snake).

So if I see videos showing people getting bitten, if I read loads of reports done by reputable newspapers or by reputable programs, why would I doubt ?

Otherwise anything you said I could go against saying you can't prove, or you can't be sure because everything you read or came across on the internet, or news are lies.

For instance, have you ever seen a politician claim for expenses they should not to ? Have you seen people die because of hurricanes ? Have you seen people getting killed by trains ? Have you seen a plane crashing before your eyes ?

Probably not, so these things don't exist ...


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## CrazyWolf84 (Apr 30, 2009)

Owzy said:


> I think I am as im still reading this thread...


yeah me too,but im not all mad a wee bit maybe :lol2:


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

For instance, I know people will say it's probably a lie, and it never happened, but that's another interesting thing I found. 

That's about Karl P Schimdt:

In 1957 he died from the consequences of the bite of a juvenile boomslang, which had been sent to his lab at the Field Museum in Chicago for identification by Marlin Perkins (who was then the director of the Lincloln Park Zoo). He underestimated the severity of this strike, which occurred 28 hours before his death and he failed to submit himself to medical treatment.

Schmidt was one of the most important herpetologists in the 20th century. Though he made only a few important discoveries by himself, he named more than 200 species. There are many species named "_karlschmidti_" in his honour. He wrote more than 200 articles and books, including _Living Reptiles of the World_ which became an international bestseller.

Not banging on about, but there are indeed hundreds of articles about accidents with hots with experienced keepers.


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

But last but not least, if you are a responsible keeper and has a license, not problem by me and probably by most people (except for those who think reptiles should not be kept in captivity full stop which I'd not listen to anyway).


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## CrazyWolf84 (Apr 30, 2009)

*licence*

where and how would one go about getting a licence? 
and what does the licence entitle one to keep once they have it ?


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

CrazyWolf84 said:


> where and how would one go about getting a licence?
> and what does the licence entitle one to keep once they have it ?


check the sticky at the top of the dwa forum mate


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I am going to bang on about this...you stated "I have seen too many experienced people getting bitten"

Have you or have you not seen anyone get bitten by a venomous snake as you stated?

Not read about, not heard about, not seen a picture of, but as you stated "seen too many experienced people getting bitten"

All it takes is a "yes I have" or a "No I haven't" what's the big deal, why are you dodging answering this?

Do you have the first hand experience of a person getting bitten that you have used as a basis for your claim that only persons conducting research, extracting venom or keeping a small zoo, should keep venomous snakes?

If anyone other than Dexter thinks I should shut the f**k up, please say so and I will...................:2thumb:


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

stuartdouglas said:


> I am going to bang on about this...you stated "I have seen too many experienced people getting bitten"
> 
> Have you or have you not seen anyone get bitten by a venomous snake as you stated?
> 
> ...


This reminds me of listening to prime ministers questions this week

Are you cutting spending?

_Well blah blah blah_

Yes but are you cutting spending?

_The thing is blah blah blah_

Thats all well and good but are you cutting spending?

(I think you get my drift)


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> I am going to bang on about this...you stated "I have seen too many experienced people getting bitten"
> 
> Have you or have you not seen anyone get bitten by a venomous snake as you stated?
> 
> ...


Keep it going Stu as I'm baffled by Dexters ideas perhaps he spend too too much time on the forum?


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## CrazyWolf84 (Apr 30, 2009)

mmm 
it would seem to me that you both have knowledge of the things you r both banging on about. 
i so didnt want to put my 2 cents in but here it is 

arguing with someone over instant messages/text messages is like the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded. 

:lol2: no offence to anyone.. much love,respect and harmony to all


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

Well as far as I know an I've been trying to look this up. So please tell me if I'm wrong. But as far as I can find the last person who died from an exotic vemonous snake in the UK. So black adders NOT included. Was in 1894. He was a london zoo keeper who had left on his dinner, had a skin full, and then decided to play with a king cobra and was bitten and died.

So again as far as I'm aware?? 115 years with no deaths of vemonous snake keeper by a result of a venomous snake bite.

Well I think thats very good going and it shows that our DWAL system is working. An that not any tw!t can get hold of these snakes. 

I'd like to put my hands together and clap to all DWA keepers all aound.

Well done!!!!

PS I am looking for a venomous snake mentor near west yorkshire:lol2:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

ScottGB said:


> Well as far as I know an I've been trying to look this up. So please tell me if I'm wrong. But as far as I can find the last person who died from an exotic vemonous snake in the UK. So black adders NOT included. Was in 1894. He was a london zoo keeper who had left on his dinner, had a skin full, and then decided to play with a king cobra and was bitten and died.
> 
> So again as far as I'm aware?? 115 years with no deaths of vemonous snake keeper by a result of a venomous snake bite.
> 
> ...


I'm not in your area but am happy to offer you advice though mentoring is another thing altogether, feel free to pm me and we can chat about it.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

CrazyWolf84 said:


> mmm
> Even if you win, you're still retarded.
> 
> :lol2: no offence to anyone.. much love,respect and harmony to all


Very non pc comment! 

There are people on the forum who would be deeply offended at that part of your commment


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

ScottGB said:


> Well as far as I know an I've been trying to look this up. So please tell me if I'm wrong. But as far as I can find the last person who died from an exotic vemonous snake in the UK. So black adders NOT included. Was in 1894. He was a london zoo keeper who had left on his dinner, had a skin full, and then decided to play with a king cobra and was bitten and died.
> 
> So again as far as I'm aware?? 115 years with no deaths of vemonous snake keeper by a result of a venomous snake bite.
> 
> ...


it was a long time ago, but theres been alot of serious envenomations since then, so its credit to the doctors really that have kept people bitten alive and treated them effectively. We have some excellent medical staff here and Prof David Warrell of Oxford is one of the best in the world.


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

CrazyWolf84 said:


> mmm
> it would seem to me that you both have knowledge of the things you r both banging on about.
> i so didnt want to put my 2 cents in but here it is
> 
> ...


Not funny at all.


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## CrazyWolf84 (Apr 30, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> Very non pc comment!
> 
> There are people on the forum who would be deeply offended at that part of your commment


which is why i stated no offence.. 
if anyone is offended PM me and i will appologise.

these are not my words.... they are stolen 
and yes i do see that it is not pc


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

slippery42 said:


> I'm not in your area but am happy to offer you advice though mentoring is another thing altogether, feel free to pm me and we can chat about it.


Cheers mate I'll take you up on that when it gets closer to the time. At the moment I'm just building up as much experience as I can.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

SiUK said:


> it was a long time ago, but theres been alot of serious envenomations since then, so its credit to the doctors really that have kept people bitten alive and treated them effectively. We have some excellent medical staff here and Prof David Warrell of Oxford is one of the best in the world.


I know I've heard about a couple, one was close to being a dry bite luckyly.
I've also been reading about Mark O'Shea who one had anti venom which made him worse so used adrenalin to help against a bite. An Ludwig Trutnau who pretty much tried to it wait it out when his been bit and used torikay (how ever you spell it) and has only used anti venom once or twice. But I'd be straight to the hospital.
I just suprised about the amounts of other ways docters can treat the symptoms and keep people alive with out anti venom. Which can be as dangerus as the venom in some cases. If I take after my syster I maybe allergic to horses so anti venom could just kill me. An the advice from the Ludwig Trutnau book if you get bitten by a gaboon viper, is to amputate what ever gets bit. Which would be bugger if it was a dry bite.
I've also heard about a professer at liverpool uni who another good person to know but I can't remember his name, if anyone knows it???


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

ScottGB said:


> I know I've heard about a couple, one was close to being a dry bite luckyly.
> I've also been reading about Mark O'Shea who one had anti venom which made him worse so used adrenalin to help against a bite. An Ludwig Trutnau who pretty much tried to it wait it out when his been bit and used torikay (how ever you spell it) and has only used anti venom once or twice. But I'd be straight to the hospital.
> I just suprised about the amounts of other ways docters can treat the symptoms and keep people alive with out anti venom. Which can be as dangerus as the venom in some cases. If I take after my syster I maybe allergic to horses so anti venom could just kill me. An the advice from the Ludwig Trutnau book if you get bitten by a gaboon viper, is to amputate what ever gets bit. Which would be bugger if it was a dry bite.
> I've also heard about a professer at liverpool uni who another good person to know but I can't remember his name, if anyone knows it???


Paul Rowley is the guy at LSTM he posts on here as PDR.

Amputating the limb is extreme but I guess in a country with very poor medical facilities or no where to treat the bite well then no limb is better than dead.

Ludwig Tratnau has been bitten about 50 times if my memory serves me correctly, his worst envenomation was from a V.ammodytes, which as slippery said are one of the most commonly kept hots here.


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## ScottGB (May 12, 2008)

SiUK said:


> Paul Rowley is the guy at LSTM he posts on here as PDR.
> 
> Amputating the limb is extreme but I guess in a country with very poor medical facilities or no where to treat the bite well then no limb is better than dead.
> 
> Ludwig Tratnau has been bitten about 50 times if my memory serves me correctly, his worst envenomation was from a V.ammodytes, which as slippery said are one of the most commonly kept hots here.


Cheers mate cos that's the one the names that I'll have one my in case of getting bit folder with snake types, venom types and known treatments.

Your right about Ludwigs worst bite, I couldn't be arsed re reading his book to get a real quote.


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