# also new to frogs



## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Hey guys I'm on the same boat as many i think , i don't know too much about frogs but i really really have been eyeing up dartfrogs for a while lol what sort of setup and specific requirements would they need? And can you mix different types of dart frog?: victory:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Graham
Best thing to do is decide which frog you want to keep and then go from there.
Most will use similar setups to live in but it is better to try and be specific.
Minimum size viv your looking at is 45 x 45 x 45.
You could have say 2 or 3 Tincs in that size or 3 Leucs.
As the viv gets larger so does the options on what you could keep.
Bigger is of course always better.
As for mixing frogs, DON`T DO IT.
One viv per morph.

Mike


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Cool mate , thanks , ill do a lot of research before jumping in don't worry about that lol as for mixing I was just curious because I've seen a few setups with different looking frogs lol :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Graham I forgot about this Newsletters
There is an article on there which will give you an idea what to do.
It`s a free download.

Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

> I've seen a few setups with different looking frogs lol :2thumb:


If you have seen this face to face, I would recommend that you don't buy frogs from this person. Hybrids in dart frogs is a very frowned upon thing, its not like snakes and lizards :2thumb:

My local pet shop at one point had leucs, azureus and mantella all in the same tank. Makes me very annoyed when I go in there. The golden mantella in there are the gorgeous red type too  

I would Google dendroboard, it is a massive american forum that is very active, with the very knowledgeable people here and the pure amount of threads there, you will find most of your questions answered. Use the search function  


Above all, if you decide to get dart frogs, be prepared to get 3-4 vivs. There will always be a frog that you want to add to your collection. :lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

What makes you think he won`t get ALL his questions answered on this forum ?


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

plasma234 said:


> you will find most of your questions answered.


A lot of questions the OP will have would have already been answered over the two. I'm sure if he *asks* any questions then they will be answered. 

Did my post offend?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

You didn`t offend me.
But you have made several posts telling people to go to dendroboard for info in such a way that implies he won`t get that info here.
For someone who doesn`t keep dart frogs your giving out advice that your not in my opinion qualified to do.
Many of us on here post on that other site and if you really knew how that site works then you`d know that they will rip you a new one just for being there and they WONT always reply to questions that you ask.


Mike


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

I do agree there are some threads on dendroboars that must be seen. But for advice and actually fitting into a group I would stick around here. I don't know but dendroboard has always seemed cliquey!

You will find that this section of rfuk is really friendly and you will always get good advice by lots of experienced guys :2thumb:


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I am giving people a multiple source of information. I don't intend on giving out any false information from myself. 
The _other_ site is not the all singing and all dancing forum, its full of americans, who can be very belittling if you ask the wrong thing or in the wrong way, not to say it doesn't have any information worth reading.

In the majority, this forum is a nicer place to "hang out" and chat.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

NOW your talking Plasma :2thumb:.
I didn`t actually mean that your giving out false info though.
Your only trying to help but personally I just felt you were going the wrong way about it.
Anyway we`ve said our piece so it`s over so to speak.

Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I can understand where you are coming from with the suggesting another site and how this can be misunderstood. I apologise for what it looked like, but that wasn't the message I was trying to portray. 

You are right, I have no frogs, what I will say is this; it was Lurking on this forum that made me want to buy them. So I would never suggest that this is a bad place to get information, quite the contrary. 

Peace


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Like any site on the internet, you just have to learn to sift out the good info. 

As to Dendroboard, I tried it when I started keeping darts. Put a huge post on there asking for advice on getting started, and didn't get a single reply. The first time I got a reply was when I disagreed with one of the elitists on there. Such fun baiting them. lol It's really not a good site for beginners though, here you are much more likely to get a sensible, none flaming, reply.

At the end of the day, 95% of those giving genuine help and advice on the other forums are doing the exact same thing right here. It's the exact same people. The difference is there is less elitism, but also more people without a clue posting here, hence you just need to learn to filter the info.

I will also say, it is very hard not to come over as elitist once you have been keeping darts for a few years, as it's just so easy to become irritated by somebody without experience posting advice that you personally disagree with. We don't mean it as elitist, but yeah it can come across that way. End of the day though, those of us who've kept darts for 2-3 years still realise we have a lot to learn, and respect those true veterans who've kept them for 10 years plus, but just like you folks just getting started get really annoyed when their experience slips across the line into elitism. 

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Hi Graham, a quick welcome. Some little things dartwise,which maybe haven't been touched on,have a play with some of the feeders and how to culture before you get frogs,it's something really good to do before frogs,or any real expenses are incurred.Remember dart vivs are humid vivs not sopping wet vivs.Get a grasp of the concept of epiphytic plants,tis worth understanding this,it's very applicable with our plants in viv. Be aware that sometimes you might get contradicting advice that on the surface looks conflicting,but really it isn't,there are many ways to keep these frogs and many methods to build out a viv,often ti's not about right or wrong just the best method to suit an individual's set of parameters. Ha ha but we all agree don't mix species or morphs:2thumb:!!

Mate I would hope, to add to the above, none of us come over as elitist,not in any way do I think that would be intended. I've found that most dartkeepers will go out of their way to help others getting started. Finally I'll add if you can get to see another keeper's collection, ask if you can visit pick their brains,one can't beat seeing this in the flesh as it were,
good luck

Stu


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Hey guys ;-) hope i haven't started a domestic :lol2: thank you very much for all the advice :2thumb: I'm planning on turning my 200 litre fluval roma fish tank into a dart setup lol "after a lot of reading up" i want to do it live etc.. but I'm not too sure ware to start with frogs , for instance the best way to keep the water separate from the land "substrate and plants" and will the be capable to climb up the glass etc..

I tend to do research and then do things on a slightly bigger scale than i probably should at the start although i try to complement that with extensive research and alto of questions on this :lol2:

I would greatly appreciate it if you guys could help me out with as much details as possible with regards to setup , lighting , water requirements, feeding, etc... from your experience because experience is always better than books Lolol : victory: :2thumb: :notworthy:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

What species mate?

Stu


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm not entirely sure mate I've been looking at azureus dart frogs but I've not decided, it's took me ages to convince the misses lol so will probably have to pretty colourful etc.. :lol2: and they must go on land and swim in water Lolol


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Welcome graham, I know how you feel, I'm returning to my childhood love of keeping frogs, but doing it proper this time, lots of research, pestering the ever helpful members of this board and building you'll find this forum rather helpful and the guys are always willing to answer, don't get too disheartened if a thread isn't answered straight away, someone will find it

Hope you enjoy your ruby and I can't wait to see your take on enclosure


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't keep darts at all, but some of the points raised above apply to all frog-keeping, really; it's good to find a forum that supports you, rather than tries to splat you down (this one is supportive, on the whole, lol! :2thumb but it is also good to search as widely as possible for information- no *one* keeper has the unique take on what works- we are all learning. So if you find something useful for your situation from somebody else' experience, that's brilliant- just share it with us, so we can use it too! :no1:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Graham have a look at my thread http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/783750-just-stu.html and you`ll see my ex marine tank which I set up for my Leucs.
I`ve done exactly what your asking/thinking about. It works, no ifs or buts, it works and has done for a long time now.
If it`s what your after I`ll give you the info on how I did it.

Mike


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Aha cannot agree more Ron, one pm to one member led to a referral to another and then another referral, nice little community here


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> Aha cannot agree more Ron, one pm to one member led to a referral to another and then another referral, nice little community here


Yeah, there is the occasional 'spat', but most people on here are overwhelmingly supportive.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Graham1988 said:


> I'm not entirely sure mate I've been looking at azureus dart frogs but I've not decided, it's took me ages to convince the misses lol so will probably have to pretty colourful etc.. :lol2: and they must go on land and swim in water Lolol


Something to remember Graham.
It`s not just about the frogs.
It`s also about the tank and how you lay it out and plant it up.
A new viv can look great.
A well laid out viv which has had time to grow can look stunning and then along come the frogs to compliment it.
A tank like that can be one hell of a centre piece in someones livingroom.
Then it makes getting the wife on your side a whole lot easier :lol2:.

Mike


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> then it makes getting the wife on your side a whole lot easier :lol2:.
> 
> Mike


you should've seen 'the look' the missus gave me when i said i was going to keep roaches to feed the frogs i intend to get (mind you she was the one who wanted milk frogs instead of whites)


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> you should've seen 'the look' the missus gave me when i said i was going to keep roaches to feed the frogs i intend to get (mind you she was the one who wanted milk frogs instead of whites)


My 'Dubyas' (they are all called George, of course!) have almost become pets- unless they increase dramatically, I may not end up feeding them to the frogs! :lol2:


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## mrkeda (Nov 6, 2012)

Meefloaf said:


> Aha cannot agree more Ron, one pm to one member led to a referral to another and then another referral, nice little community here





Ron Magpie said:


> Yeah, there is the occasional 'spat', but most people on here are overwhelmingly supportive.


The frog section is definitely one of the more 'friendlier' sections of these forums.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Graham1988 said:


> I'm not entirely sure mate I've been looking at azureus dart frogs but I've not decided, it's took me ages to convince the misses lol so will probably have to pretty colourful etc.. :lol2: and they must go on land and swim in water Lolol


Well I guess darts do colour ,so there shouldn't be a problem there. 

Graham be aware that you are talking about terrestrial frogs,what you devote to water you take from them on the land side.The land is where these frogs live,they are not semi aquatic,they don't even lay eggs in water.I'd always have water in an adult dart viv,essentially it provides a place for rehydration,should humidity ever drop for what ever reason.Also useful for a male to grab some excess moisture when watering eggs. If you would have posted about darts swimming say 3 years back,then you would have been warned about their ability to drown in small volumes of water,frankly I don't hold to this view. Are you aware of the ent viv design,look into it mate just for ideas really about % of water to land.
Tincs,azzies (azeureus) are tincs are essentially terrestrial leaf litter frogs,although they do climb,they are mainly terrestrial,they need to be fed really well when they are growing,I can't stress the importance of sorting the grub out enough and early,ie before frogs.Go on your over kill here mate,it ain't glamorous,but damn it's important. Note the leaf litter so so important a depth of leaves the abundance of niches for hunting and areas of differing humidity. Can you see I'm steering you somewhere,if not read again,leaf litter is important: all the fabulous backgrounds in the world, rocks, water will not be as important to the frogs as a live sub and leaves.

Nuff from me gotta dash,drums calling

Stu
ps cool post Ron:notworthy:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

With Stu here, leaf litter is important stuff. Backgrounds don't matter a bit to the frogs, I've proven this completely and utterly already. Frogs don't give a hoot if you have a fancy background, or something black on the outside of their viv, so long as they have stuff to climb on and places to hide under or in. Leaf litter is where they feed, the more you have, the happier they are.

As to water in the viv, starting out leave it to a small bowl, tiny pond area or the gully on a euro style. You'll be glad you did.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

At one time we had people saying that my Leuc viv is the dogs danglies with it`s large pool and now we have the same people saying not to do it ?
Sorry to burst your bubbles people but don`t you remember that once not in the too distant past we all agreed that Leucs for one love water ?
Has something changed that I`m not aware of ?
Oh that's right I`ve no leaf litter in their viv either, I`m bad.
Oh wait there`s none in my Azureus viv either.
Oh god no I`d better stop keeping frogs because my Reginas and all my Terribs are leaf free zones.
The biggest sin of all is that I`ve got some older froglets in a leaf free viv too.
That's it I`m off to hang my head in shame.

Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> At one time we had people saying that my Leuc viv is the dogs danglies with it`s large pool and now we have the same people saying not to do it ?
> Sorry to burst your bubbles people but don`t you remember that once not in the too distant past we all agreed that Leucs for one love water ?
> Has something changed that I`m not aware of ?
> Oh that's right I`ve no leaf litter in their viv either, I`m bad.
> ...


Sorry Mike, really don't know where that came from? As we and others know, we have had a few disagreements, and we both have had with others, but one thing on this particular section (on the whole, with some exceptions) is a certain spirit of tolerance for different methods and results. So I don't quite get where leaf litter is a big issue. I use it, I know some people don't. Any clarification?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

No worries Ron ask away.
We sometimes need disagreements.
We have a guy comes on asking about setting up an ex aquarium for frogs.
Why can`t we just all go back to basics and help him get set up first before telling him to get ent style vivs etc and filling up with leaf litter etc.
Water/pools DO work.
I`ve offered to tell Graham how I did mine.
Nobody on here knows how I did it, but I`ve offered to share it with him to help him.
We do all agree that frogs need and DO like water to go into.
My Leucs are often in their pool.
My Azureus Do soak in their water dish as do my Terribs and Reginas.
And the dishes are all deep enough for any of them to drown in if they so wished.
The point is that he is being bombed by so much different ideas he probably doesn`t have a clue which way he`s facing.
I referred him to an article on basic setup on the BAKS site, is that no longer an acceptable way of setting a viv up ?
Help him get set up and then if need be help him make adjustments.
Just for the sake of it, leaf litter is the last thing you`d put in the viv, litteraly.
I know people believe in the stuff and I do too, but not all frogs need it.
To me getting the viv set up is more important, background, substrate, plants etc etc.

Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> No worries Ron ask away.
> We sometimes need disagreements.
> We have a guy comes on asking about setting up an ex aquarium for frogs.
> Why can`t we just all go back to basics and help him get set up first before telling him to get ent style vivs etc and filling up with leaf litter etc.
> ...


Ok, I get it, I think- the issue is about the conflicting advice available, and the huge variation in advice given and/or actually taken? I can tell you, sometimes I wan't to tear my hair out (assuming I had any, lol!) when I have said as plainly as possible *this will not work*, knowing that people will do it anyway. I think the trap for all of us 'experienced' keepers, though, is to get so set in our particular ways that we miss it when someone comes up with something new- it's not a threat, it's something that _could _(note 'could') be a possibility. If it doesn't work or it's obviously rubbish, fine, but I've had to re-think my position on so many issues on this site over the years that I'm tempted to keep a bit of an open mind.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I hear you Ron on people doing things they are told NOT to.
Yes it`s frustrating especially after they`ve asked and you`ve gone to the effort of advising.
But I`ve had face to face encounters with people in the past over this issue of helping people into the hobby and get them going first.
The rest comes with the experience.
It`s just something I`m a believer in and that will never change.
So going back a bit.
I say go to the BAKS site and download a newsletter which will explain basic setup and someone comes on saying do this instead.
I post a link to my Leucs which is a converted aquarium the same as Graham is starting out with and he gets told to do something different.
I say a pool can work in his aquarium and my one is proof of that after running nicely for 3 years.
But he gets told don`t do it.
You can see where I`m going here.
He`s got the tank, so lets help him get it set up.

Mike


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Oh no ... i hope I've not started another domestic :bash: i understand ware everyone is coming from although it is a little confusing Lolol: victory:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It`s okay Graham, once it`s all over you can spend some time sifting through the debris :lol2:.
You`ll find that it does happen on occasion but it normally always ends up as happy families again.


Mike


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Cool mate thank god for that lol and thanks guys for the info it's greatly appreciated :notworthy: now i think i just have to decide what way i want to setup my tank Lolol this is the bit i love :2thumb:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Mike, seriously, chill out bud. We all have different methods, you seriously don't need to blow up just because we advise somebody differently to how you would.

Why did I say stick with a small amount of water? Because beginners often go nuts with it, and end up eroding their floor space too much. They also often don't plan adequately for the impact of their water area upon the rest of there viv in ways such as soaked substrate and excessive condensation. So I'd rather newbies keep thing simple to begin with whilst they learn the ropes so to speak.

As to leaf litter, I don't have any in my leuc viv either. What I do have is an insane amount of LIVE ground cover, you've seen it. Again though a lot of newbies go for a moss covered floor, and these provide nothing for the frogs. Leaf litter, whether you like it or not, is the single best ground covering, end of story. You don't like this, well sorry but your problem.

Take a deep breath, and maybe some dried frog pills. Everybody isn't always going to agree with your every word. That's the nature of forums.

Ade


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Graham, look through everything and take it in and see which best suits your ability, time available and expense. I've just about finished my first attempt, its taken me a few months and a fair bit of money, but I've enjoyed it and there is no better feeling than looking at the stages and thinking "this is awesome". I've had panics and obviously its not the greatest, but I'm really happy with my effort. I started off by wanting to build a polyresin rock structure with a stream running down the middle to a waterfall and a small pool lol, but after advice from the guys on here and elsewhere realised it would be more hassle for me personally and above my level to start messing with. Then I was going for a full vine and expanding foam job until some great advice that the frogs I wanted to make it for actually prefer bark and glass to climb up.

So what I'm trying to say is, take your time, assess everything at least a thousand times lol and above all else, cater to the frogs you want first, and then you can play around with the best method to create what you want, and don't be afraid to ask questions, you may get varying info, but in general there will be one that suites what you are trying to achieve

Joe


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Cheers guys :2thumb: do you have any pics Joe: victory:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

here's my first idea that i scraped - 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/planted-vivariums/948798-looking-do-planted-tank.html

here's the one i'm actually doing, just used the plastidip yesterday and a few touch ups today, will get pics later - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/habitat/954374-my-first-build.html

*and here is the thread i found the most helpful and one i used a similar process, Adam (fatlad69) has been a great help throughtout my build -* http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/944120-dart-frog-exo-build-pic.html


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Looking well good mate cheers :2thumb:


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I feel a bit sorry for the OP as a simple "hi, I am new and looking for advice" has turned into a couple of heated debates. Its all feeling a bit American :lol2: There is some great advice that I have taken note of, and a fantastic offer of help from mike to you (jealous) 

After my brief skirmish on this thread feel free to ignore me, but my build in progress is a 200 litre aquarium conversion. I have read and understood and then ignored the benefits of a euro style, because I had mine cheap. If anyone had a choice I am sure they would get a purpose built viv, as would I. my attempt

It is still very much in progress, and I wouldn't recommend you copy it, as I have no idea how it will perform. Its just an example of an aquarium converted. I have Mike's tank as a bookmark and used it as inspiration. As its an aquarium converted for leucs. I'm not blowing smoke up his arse, but I am not here to argue his results either.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Come on guys this is usually one of the friendlier sections.If we can agree to disagree sometimes?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

colinm said:


> Come on guys this is usually one of the friendlier sections.If we can agree to disagree sometimes?


First rule of dartkeeping,we all do things slightly different,none more right or more wrong just different
Second rule of dartkeeping when someone gets short the others don't care much if it's someone they have disagreed with,offers of help still come in.
No biggy's here just differences,tis a good thing,it leads to a wider variety of options for the new guy to choose from:2thumb:.

'Ere Colin grats on being our new mod :welcome:

Stu


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> First rule of dartkeeping,we all do things slightly different,none more right or more wrong just different
> Second rule of dartkeeping when someone gets short the others don't care much if it's someone they have disagreed with,offers of help still come in.
> No biggy's here just differences,tis a good thing,it leads to a wider variety of options for the new guy to choose from:2thumb:.
> 
> ...


1st rule of dart keeping... We DONT talk about dart keeping......oh...wait...........LOL


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

colinm said:


> Come on guys this is usually one of the friendlier sections.If we can agree to disagree sometimes?


Colin I always agree to disagree, it makes for a more entertaining day :2thumb:.
Plasma an offer of help is always on the table so no need to feel jealous lol.
Just sit down and pick who you want to lead you along the murky dart frog laden path.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> Just sit down and pick who you want to lead you along the murky dart frog laden path.


Darth Oophaga or Obi Wan Tictorius. 

Anything north of the border is obviously the dark side  


(that was a joke before I start a Scots v English argument :lol2


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

plasma234 said:


> Darth Oophaga or Obi Wan Tictorius.
> 
> Anything north of the border is obviously the dark side
> 
> ...


Argument ?
Who`s arguing Plasma :2thumb:


Mike


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Yo guys, i think you are right lol i think I'd be crazy not to take as much help and advice from mike lol think this could be my best way forward and to learn more about frogs :2thumb: and thank you all again for the advice and the help with the links :notworthy:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Remember though Graham that there is plenty of good advice to be had on here.
Just use whichever is most suited for your particular needs.
It doesn`t actually matter where it comes from as long as it`s what you require.


Mike


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## Graham1988 (Sep 14, 2011)

Yeah i know mate , I need all the help I can get lol, do use think the original hood for my tank will be o.k " fluval roma 200 " or will I need to try and make one?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Believe it or not, Mike and me are actually pals in real life. lol

Ade


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> Believe it or not, Mike and me are actually pals in real life. lol
> 
> Ade


Just a lovers tiff :Na_Na_Na_Na:

:lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Graham
I had a look at your tank and from what I see you should be able to use your hood.
But you`ll have to make sure it`s sealed to stop escapes.
For example any large holes you could maybe silicone some mesh over to allow fresh air entry and other smaller holes you could probably just seal up with a blob of silicone.


Mike


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