# Exotic pets : Close encounters of the dangerous kind?



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

EXOTIC PETS : CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE DANGEROUS KIND?

New report: Wild animals as ‘pets’ threaten the environment and public health Dogs and domestic cats may be the most conventional and numerous companion animals, or ‘pets’, but wild animals, such as snakes and lizards, and even meerkats and monkeys, are increasingly in demand around homes in Europe. Wild in nature and often unpredictable, these animals are not only potentially dangerous to people, able to inflict severe physical injury, or transmit harmful diseases, but they suffer. Requiring specialised care and specific living conditions, many wild pets become too much to handle and are simply abandoned, causing serious problems for the local environment and native species and can cost billions of Euros to be removed. 

Will Travers OBE, CEO of the Born Free Foundation and President of the Species Survival Network, expressed his concerns about the loss of biodiversity which the capture of and trade in wild animals causes: “Harvesting methods used to collect the animals can result in serious disturbance to habitats, displacement, injury and death. *For example, an estimated 90% of wild reptiles captured for the pet trade die before the end of their first year in captivity.*” Travers continued; “Furthermore, the accidental or deliberate release of wild pets can lead to the establishment of invasive alien species, which can disrupt ecosystems and displace local fauna. The EU reportedly spends over €12 billion annually on controlling invasive alien species. Of over 5,000 respondents to an EU Commission survey on Invasive Alien Species (which ended in April 2012), more than 80% indicated they wanted greater restrictions on the sale of exotic species of animals and plants.”


----------



## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

Bill Travers lost a 'shouting match' at the EU Parliament with a representative of EAZA (European Association of Zoos & Aquariums) when Travers wanted all Zoos closed.

Regrettably Travers has a 'reputation' and can get away with quoting totally false facts and figures!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> *For example, an estimated 90% of wild reptiles captured for the pet trade die before the end of their first year in captivity.*[/SIZE][/FONT]


I know this figure gets thrown around quite a lot by the animal rights lot, and I know the people on here are always claiming it's bulls***. Thing is, do the people on here have figures to back that up? To me, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the majority of wild caught specimens _do_ die within the first year....especially as most of these will be infant animals that are smuggled around the world in unsuitable packaging.

If Mr. Newman (or anyone else for that matter) can come up with their version of the figures rather than just speculating as they claim the AR people do, then I should be very interested to read them.

(N.B. I'm not supporting the AR lot here....just questioning the validity of both arguments.)


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> I know this figure gets thrown around quite a lot by the animal rights lot, and I know the people on here are always claiming it's bulls***. Thing is, do the people on here have figures to back that up? To me, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the majority of wild caught specimens _do_ die within the first year....especially as most of these will be infant animals that are smuggled around the world in unsuitable packaging.
> 
> If Mr. Newman (or anyone else for that matter) can come up with their version of the figures rather than just speculating as they claim the AR people do, then I should be very interested to read them.
> 
> (N.B. I'm not supporting the AR lot here....just questioning the validity of both arguments.)


 
Do your serious believe that 90% mortality in the first year is realistic…….?

I would place it in the same camp as the claims that mortality in transport is up to 50% - reality 0.47%

Or that 75% of reptiles die in the first year of captivity – reality 3.75%


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> Do your serious believe that 90% mortality in the first year is realistic…….?
> 
> I would place it in the same camp as the claims that mortality in transport is up to 50% - reality 0.47%
> 
> Or that 75% of reptiles die in the first year of captivity – reality 3.75%


Did I, at any point, say that 90% was realistic? No, now please stop jumping the gun.

What I said was that I can fair believe that _the majority of wild caught specimens_ die within the first year of life. I based my assumptions on most of them being very young infant reptiles (which have a high mortality anyway), that young animals are more prone to disease and illness, and the fact that a huge number will have been smuggled in bad packaging. _NOBODY_ knows how many animals are smuggled this way, not even you Mr. Newman....it's impossible to, and I have no problem with believing that a huge number of them die in transit or soon after. 

Also, let's not forget that a MASSIVE number of young beardies and corns are bought by people from random pet shops and don't know how to look after them.....they don't use RFUK, so you have no idea how many there are! But this article doesn't concern them, because Travers is talking about _wild caught_ animals!

So whilst I don't fully buy into Travers's no doubt exaggerated claim, I think the likes of yourself, Mr. Newman, are far downplaying the problem for the sake of protecting your precious "hobby", and minimising bad press. I wonder if you might like to state your sources for the statistics you gave above? To me they seem just as extreme as the 90%.


----------



## Tappers (Jan 22, 2008)

mrcriss said:


> Did I, at any point, say that 90% was realistic? No, now please stop jumping the gun.
> 
> What I said was that I can fair believe that _the majority of wild caught specimens_ die within the first year of life. I based my assumptions on most of them being very young infant reptiles (which have a high mortality anyway), that young animals are more prone to disease and illness, and the fact that a huge number will have been smuggled in bad packaging. _NOBODY_ knows how many animals are smuggled this way, not even you Mr. Newman....it's impossible to, and I have no problem with believing that a huge number of them die in transit or soon after.
> 
> ...


This is a wind up isn't it?

By the looks of your signature it looks awfully like 'your precious hobby' that Chris is protecting. I certainly know it's mine and I only keep tiny animals in huge naturalistic set ups. Still I'm lumped with exotic keepers who own skunks, constrictors and big monitors. When you're in the same boat, I'd suggest that helping to bail is a wiser option than making new holes..


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tappers said:


> This is a wind up isn't it?
> 
> By the looks of your signature it looks awfully like 'your precious hobby' that Chris is protecting. I certainly know it's mine and I only keep tiny animals in huge naturalistic set ups. Still I'm lumped with exotic keepers who own skunks, constrictors and big monitors. When you're in the same boat, I'd suggest that helping to bail is a wiser option than making new holes..


No wind up, no.

I don't view my pets as a hobby thanks.

And it's no secret that I have for a loooong time dissociated myself from Mr. Newman and the FBH (or whatever it's called). 

And as for insinuations about my pets....they all also have naturalistic enclosures thank you! (Apart from the skunk, who is a house skunk):bash:

As for this thread, I'm am merely questioning the validity of figures and so-called facts given by both sides of the argument. Am I not allowed to pose such questions? Can I not satiate my curiosity and express my doubt? Is this not a free country? Or should I follow blindly and be a polite little "yes-man" like the rest of the forum seems to do?

Pardon me for being an individual!:banghead:


----------



## Tappers (Jan 22, 2008)

mrcriss said:


> No wind up, no.
> 
> I don't view my pets as a hobby thanks.
> 
> And it's no secret that I have for a loooong time dissociated myself from Mr. Newman and the FBH (or whatever it's called).


My apologies, I didn't know that I was interfering in an existing grudge issue..


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tappers said:


> My apologies, I didn't know that I was interfering in an existing grudge issue..


Not a grudge, no. I like to think that Mr.Newman and myself are a bit more adult than that.

However, I'd like you to appreciate that Mr. Newman doesn't speak for all of us, as I'm sure he recognises that he can't please everyone!


----------



## Tappers (Jan 22, 2008)

To be honest, in an arena where I find much to condemn I can't see how it's possible to please everyone. I know that Mr Newman embraced this reality some years ago!

Unfortunately those such as Mr Travers don't see shades within animal keeping and this is why cohesion is vital when trying to defend mixed-standard practices against people and organisations who are entirely unreasonable in their approach. When it comes down to it my freedom to keep dartfrogs, tortoises etc. is tied to yours to have a house skunk.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tappers said:


> To be honest, in an arena where I find much to condemn I can't see how it's possible to please everyone. I know that Mr Newman embraced this reality some years ago!
> 
> Unfortunately those such as Mr Travers don't see shades within animal keeping and this is why cohesion is vital when trying to defend mixed-standard practices against people and organisations who are entirely unreasonable in their approach. When it comes down to it my freedom to keep dartfrogs, tortoises etc. is tied to yours to have a house skunk.


You're right, the likes of Travers does see things in only black and white, when as we all know, there are 50 shades of grey! 

As such, if I were to align myself with Mr. Newman, I would also have to stand by the cruel animal markets that he's so fond of protecting, and I'm just not prepared to do that!

But that's not what this thread is about.....it's about both sides seeming to pull random figures out of the air and swearing blind that it's true, and the validity of those truths. So let's get back to that, shall we?


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> Did I, at any point, say that 90% was realistic? No, now please stop jumping the gun.
> 
> What I said was that I can fair believe that _the majority of wild caught specimens_ die within the first year of life. I based my assumptions on most of them being very young infant reptiles (which have a high mortality anyway), that young animals are more prone to disease and illness, and the fact that a huge number will have been smuggled in bad packaging. _NOBODY_ knows how many animals are smuggled this way, not even you Mr. Newman....it's impossible to, and I have no problem with believing that a huge number of them die in transit or soon after.
> 
> ...


Let me quote what you said:

_“To me, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the majority of wild caught specimens do die within the first year”_

Your comments on this forum are consistently inline with those who oppose the keeping of animals in captivity, so jumping the gun; I don’t think so……!!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Yes, read what I wrote again sir! ....."the majority"...as in over 50%

"Of wild caught".....after all, this is what Travers was talking about.

I'm only questioning what you've both said. What's so wrong with that?

And how can I be against keeping animals in captivity, when I have my lot? And when I work in a place with lots of, guess what, captive animals!!!

You accuse the AR lot of only seeing things in B&W....it seems to me that the other side are often guilty of the same thing! Am I not allowed to agree and disagree with policies and arguments from both sides as any rational person should?


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> Yes, read what I wrote again sir! ....."the majority"...as in over 50%
> 
> "Of wild caught".....after all, this is what Travers was talking about.
> 
> ...


With all due respect that is not what you said, for the sake of clarity let me reiterate your statement in its entirety: 

_“What I said was that I can fair believe that the majority of wild caught specimens die within the first year of life. I based my assumptions on most of them being very young infant reptiles (which have a high mortality anyway), that young animals are more prone to disease and illness, and the fact that a huge number will have been smuggled in bad packaging”_

I have no idea if you keep animals or not, I have no idea who you are as you choose to hide behind a pseudonym! That aside there are many, many people who believe its OK for them to keep animals, but not others – even Clifford Warwick is a keeps….!!

On balance, your comments on this forum are decidedly _not_ supportive of private animals keepers, in my view!


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Since you asked: 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru.../993562-reptile-mortality-rate-study-now.html

There was also a questionaire on this very issue being circulated at Kempton by a research company (I forget which one).

Stats for wild imports come from the like of Heathrows Animal Centre (or whatever its called).... who are probably about as impartial as you can get.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> With all due respect that is not what you said, for the sake of clarity let me reiterate your statement in its entirety:
> 
> Hahahaha......I love that phrase "with all due respect", because everyone knows that it's passive aggressively used to veil their utter lack of respect
> 
> ...


I am in favour of keeping (most) animals privately......._*but I am in favour of keeping them correctly*_ in a manner where the animals don't suffer due to selfish human keepers. i.e.....I approve of people keeping meerkats, but not indoors and feeding them pot noodles! 



Lord Vetinari said:


> Since you asked:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru.../993562-reptile-mortality-rate-study-now.html
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I don't have 'nuff time to read a full dissertation by some random forumite. It may be a work of literary genius...who knows? But I can see it aligns itself with the FBH....something which I've already stated that I do not. This therefore immediately discredits it in my eyes, as would a report from the APA....also not worth a read to me. However, a sample survey of 800, probably mostly RFUK members, can hardly give a definitive result on the figures of wild-caught animals that die in the first year. 

Heathrow's input is worth slightly more, but even these can't give a real figure on what is essentially a "how long is a piece of string" style question!

I therefore, once more and hopefully for the last time, reiterate that I have no problem _whatsoever_ believing that the majority of wild caught animals (NOT 90% as Travers stated....but then I never said that!) die within their first year of life, for the reasons that I outlined above. Nobody has yet proven anything to the contrary.


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> I am in favour of keeping (most) animals privately......._*but I am in favour of keeping them correctly*_ in a manner where the animals don't suffer due to selfish human keepers. i.e.....I approve of people keeping meerkats, but not indoors and feeding them pot noodles!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you should read it.... You know, it does list sources other than FBH and RFUK...which you can check independently.But you have clearly already made up your mind on this, so you know, don't trouble yourself too much. 

Who would you suggest is asked about mortality rates? People who take in WC or those who don't? 

Just FYI, so we can get the accusations out the way early, I don't actually agree with some of what Chris says, nor do I actually agree with shows, nor do I have any commercial interest tied in with the animals I keep.

Just what, out of interest, would you take as proof?


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Just what, out of interest, would you take as proof?


Honestly? I have no idea until I see it. 

But if something is clearly weighted in either direction can't really be taken seriously. Also, I've read many dissertations over the years....even written a few with my degrees.....and a lot of them have been utter rubbish! Just because someone put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) in the name of a qualification, it really doesn't mean it's gospel. It means that it is there to be discussed, questioned and doubted.

*EDIT.....but no, I won't read it. I have to spend the next couple of hours tending to my _*(non-fictional)*_ animals!


----------



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

*groans*


----------



## Tappers (Jan 22, 2008)

Out of interest, I'm guessing your tiger sals were imports and your bosc captive farmed? What's been your experience of their survival rates?

I know what you mean about animal markets. I had the misfortune of visiting one in Bali and couldn't speak for a few hours afterwards - so much suffering for such morally bankrupt reasons. Truly shocking and very similar to the one shown in the loris documentary that you may have seen.


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> Honestly? I have no idea until I see it.
> 
> But if something is clearly weighted in either direction can't really be taken seriously. Also, I've read many dissertations over the years....even written a few with my degrees.....and a lot of them have been utter rubbish! Just because someone put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) in the name of a qualification, it really doesn't mean it's gospel. It means that it is there to be discussed, questioned and doubted.
> 
> *EDIT.....but no, I won't read it. I have to spend the next couple of hours tending to my _*(non-fictional)*_ animals!


I have written a few as well... But hey ho. We can all brag can't we... never said it was gospel though did I? But it is an interesting read, I actually agree with you, it is there to be questioned...But you aren't going to read it, but assume its essentially fictional, and clearly weighted? Leap to conclusions much? 

This dissertation isn't the best written I have ever read, but the points are interesting and it is well sourced... 

I wager you don't know what proof would convince you is because the numbers presented (by both sides) fall outside your preconceived ideas.


----------



## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

one thing i will say in (kind of) support of mrcriss (yes, i know, Satan is currently skating to work), is that while i would agree that 90% is certainly an over exaggeration, if the figure includes wild caught inverts, i would not be surprised if the figure was higher than we would like to think. 

does the study also take wild caught amphibians into account? i do intend to read it, i just cant seem to get it to open on my laptop.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tappers said:


> Out of interest, I'm guessing your tiger sals were imports and your bosc captive farmed? What's been your experience of their survival rates?


I have no idea about the start of the sals' lives as the were rescued like most of my brood.....my bosc was however captive bred in the uk.



Lord Vetinari said:


> I have written a few as well... But hey ho. We can all brag can't we... never said it was gospel though did I? But it is an interesting read, I actually agree with you, it is there to be questioned...But you aren't going to read it, but assume its essentially fictional, and clearly weighted? Leap to conclusions much?
> 
> This dissertation isn't the best written I have ever read, but the points are interesting and it is well sourced...
> 
> I wager you don't know what proof would convince you is because the numbers presented (by both sides) fall outside your preconceived ideas.


I know I'm probably doing a disservice to my argument by not reading the document, but if it means that I have to take that much time out of my friday evening purely to prove a point to some random people that I'll never meet and much less care about, then you'll forgive me for not doing so!

This whole episode has only flared because I shared an opinion which, shock and horror, dared to fly in the face of the RFUK flock. The facts are, I'm well entitled to do so, and I don't really care if anyone agrees with it. It's you lot that are getting all wound up because I choose to express a little free-will and question the norm.

Aaaanyways.....vive la difference!: victory:


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> I have no idea about the start of the sals' lives as the were rescued like most of my brood.....my bosc was however captive bred in the uk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love that you assume I'm getting wound up... Or care about you or your opinion as well. :lol2: 

You are barely a blip on my radar, no matter how much of an arrogant twunt you are. 

And I'm sure the feelings mutual. :no1:


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Well, I don't think there's any need for insults.....a tad immature....but at least you got the very last bit right!


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> Well, I don't think there's any need for insults.....a tad immature....but at least you got the very last bit right!


:lol2:

Probably was, but you know.... I like sharing my opinion.


----------



## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

MrKriss

May I just state that Chris Newman does far more for, not only the Herpetological hobby, but also the Avicultural hobby and the hobby of keeping Non Domestic (Animals), than you do!

You benefit from his work, which enables you to follow your business (you did say that keeping livestock is not a hobby, so we must assume it is a business!) - but you take every opportunity to attack those same hobbies!

Please come out of the closet - and openly support the Antis! Sorry, pal, but you come over as 'closet anti', with an over-exaggerated opinion of yourself, and a hypocrite!

MJD


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

duffey1 said:


> MrKriss
> 
> May I just state that Chris Newman does far more for, not only the Herpetological hobby, but also the Avicultural hobby and the hobby of keeping Non Domestic (Animals), than you do!
> 
> ...


:lol2::lol2::lol2: So dramatic! :lol2::lol2: Almost worthy of one of my rants!

Ok....So no, my pets aren't a hobby. Crochet is a hobby, as is model trains, skydiving and S&M. I hasten to add that none of those are my hobbies, because I'm too busy looking after my animals, which are members of my family. You wouldn't say that your kids are "hobbies", would you?

Whatever Mr. Newman has or hasn't done is really of no concern to me. I've never requested help from the man. If he has chosen to do so, then that's his deal. I don't make celebrities of people easily, and certainly prefer my nose to remain pink, thanks 

The reasons why I won't associate with the FBH are no personal attack on the man himself (although he is aware of our wildly differing approaches to meerkat husbandry, and I wouldn't wish to break the name and shame rules with other dealings I have been informed he is a part of). No, the reasons I dissociate from the FBH have already been outlined above.....in that I find their animal markets to be cruel and abhorrent! I am absolutely allowed to have this opinion, and I am also absolutely should be free to express this opinion when I wish to.....this is after all an open forum and a free country. I have broken no rules with rudeness or insults (something I wish I could say for others)! Moreover, there are many many others on this forum that share this opinion. Those "shows" cater to only a very small section of the reptile keeping community.

If I were to stand by the FBH at all, then (as we have already ascertained, the AR lot see everything in B&W) I should also have to lend support to those markets, which I am just not prepared to do! 

I shouldn't be accused of having an animal rights agenda, just because I don't agree with what I view as cruel practice. I have burst forth from many closets in my life, but that is not one in which I am concealed.....although your turn of phrase is hilarious!


----------



## duffey1 (Aug 24, 2012)

MrKriss,

Sorry Pal but:

You're too green, and inexperienced to have an opinion worth listening to!

You boast of being drunk or hungover - not ideal for someone keeping livestock!

You are always very eager to attack the herpetological hobby.

Your husbandry skills are questionable to say the least - anyone who can boast of allowing a Bald Eagle to escape through poor housing should not be allowed to keep livestock!

Or, perhaps that's the reason for your AR attitude - you need the RSPCA onside to avoid prosecution? Who do you report to - Andy Shipp, Mike Butcher or Cliff Harrison?

You contribute nothing towards any livestock keeping hobby - yet are willing to attack those who work to improve it - hypocritical does not even begin to adequately describe you!

Lord Vetinari

You've added a new word to my vocabulary - your description of MrKriss is 'spot on'!

MJD


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

duffey1 said:


> MrKriss,
> 
> Sorry Pal but:
> 
> ...



Oh bless you dear! Has someone been desperately doing his research to try and lend some weight to a rather thin and boring argument? How cute!:flrt:

I'm green?? I'm kinda flattered, seeing as I'm pushing 40. I guess the fact that since leaving school I've spent most of my adult life working with animals in various capacities (zoos, farms etc) counts for absolutely nothing, does it? Bless!

Yes I do like a drink from time to time....what sane person doesn't? That hardly means I'm incapable of functioning as a human being!

My "husbandry skills are questionable", are they? How do you know? Have you been to my house or workplace? 
The bald eagle of which you speak isn't mine.....I have nowt to do with the thing! It belongs to a good friend, a venerable falconer, who had it staying temporarily at my parent's house. Tell me now.....what keeper hasn't had an animal of any kind escape before? Even the most established zoos have escapes from time to time! Whether you can get it back is more important! Thinking such a thing is a black mark on husbandry skills exhibits how green YOU are, sir!

I don't have an AR attitude kiddo.....despite your insistence. What I can say is this (I hope it convinces).....if I did side with AR, then I would have NO issues with proclaiming as such....on a reptile forum, at a show, wherever! Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. 


But I don't.

You're right on one thing.....I don't contribute to any hobby, because once more, I DONT AGREE THAT ITS A HOBBY! All that I ever criticise is when I see questionable practices.....i.e. The cruel reptile markets, dodgy meerkat and primate husbandry, etc. Surely it's allowed to express those opinions?

I quite liked that word too.....I shall use it at some point this week, gauge the reaction and get back to you!


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> The reasons why I won't associate with the FBH are no personal attack on the man himself (although he is aware of our wildly differing approaches to meerkat husbandry, and I wouldn't wish to break the name and shame rules with other dealings I have been informed he is a part of). No, the reasons I dissociate from the FBH have already been outlined above.....in that I find their animal markets to be cruel and abhorrent! I am absolutely allowed to have this opinion, and I am also absolutely should be free to express this opinion when I wish to.....this is after all an open forum and a free country. I have broken no rules with rudeness or insults (something I wish I could say for others)! Moreover, there are many many others on this forum that share this opinion. Those "shows" cater to only a very small section of the reptile keeping community.


So your view is Breeders Meetings are (quote) “cruel and abhorrent”, interesting, these are terms I have heard used before from certain sectors. I assume you are also opposed to the sale of animals from pet shops and via the internet….?


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> So your view is Breeders Meetings are (quote) “cruel and abhorrent”, interesting, these are terms I have heard used before from certain sectors. *I assume you are also opposed to the sale of animals from pet shops and via the internet*….?


Actually no, I'm not:2thumb:


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> Actually no, I'm not:2thumb:


Really well you do surprise me…….!!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> Really well you do surprise me…….!!


If your little fan had done his research properly, then he would have seen my ex works in a certain pet shop. And I recently acquired some guinea fowl for work from preloved.

I love that you're trying to discredit me by making out that because I don't worship at the temple of FBH, then I must obviously be an animal rights activist in disguise, when I'm clearly not! It's very funny and makes it look like you're really clutching at straws....and dare I say it, rather arrogant yourself!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

And by the way, I'm perfectly happy to get this thread back on topic, when you're done with your fascination about my life.:whistling2:


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> If your little fan had done his research properly, then he would have seen my ex works in a certain pet shop. And I recently acquired some guinea fowl for work from preloved.
> 
> I love that you're trying to discredit me by making out that I must obviously be an animal rights activist in disguise, when I'm clearly not! It's very funny and makes it look like you're really clutching at straws.


You are perfectly entitled to your views and I have not the remotest interest in discrediting you (who ever you are). My interests are supporting responsible animal keepers.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> You are perfectly entitled to your views and I have not the remotest interest in discrediting you (who ever you are).* My interests are supporting responsible animal keepers*.


As are mine, Chris. Genuinely! That's kind of what I do for a living.

Thing is, you're encouraging people to keep meerkats indoors....that's hardly responsible, is it? We both know that's not really right for that species...a very dated way of keeping them.


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> As are mine, Chris. Genuinely! That's kind of what I do for a living.
> 
> Thing is, you're encouraging people to keep meerkats indoors....that's hardly responsible, is it? We both know that's not really right for that species...a very dated way of keeping them.


Again you really surprise me! 

That aside I have never ‘encouraged’ anyone to keep meerkats, inside or outside. I have merely stated that ‘facts’ as I find them, as someone with practical hands on experience of keeping them, both as house pets and in outside enclosure.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> Again you really surprise me!
> 
> That aside I have never ‘encouraged’ anyone to keep meerkats, inside or outside. I have merely stated that ‘facts’ as I find them, as someone with practical hands on experience of keeping them, both as house pets and in outside enclosure.


I disagree.....you really have encouraged people to do it, and even put down anyone that disagreed with tedious insults in the process. But never mind eh? You're untouchable!


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> I disagree.....you really have encouraged people to do it, and even put down anyone that disagreed with tedious insults in the process. But never mind eh? You're untouchable!


As I have said before you are perfectly entitled to you opinions. Personally speaking I state the facts as I find them, if you find that disagreeable, so be it. I am not going to lie just to placate you, or indeed anyone else.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> As I have said before you are perfectly entitled to you opinions. Personally speaking I state the facts as I find them, if you find that disagreeable, so be it. I am not going to lie just to placate you, or indeed anyone else.


The sentiment is incredibly mutual _(we finally agree on something!)_, but you and your minions seem to get ever so offended when I do so! 

Me? I just find it rather charming! :flrt::flrt::flrt: A passtime, a distraction, an amusement!


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> The sentiment is incredibly mutual _(we finally agree on something!)_, but you and your minions seem to get ever so offended when I do so!
> 
> Me? I just find it rather charming! :flrt::flrt::flrt: A passtime, a distraction, an amusement!


It’s a little more than a ‘distraction’ or ‘amusement’ to me it’s more fundamental than that, perhaps which accounts for the differing views…..!!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> It’s a little more than a ‘distraction’ or ‘amusement’ to me it’s more fundamental than that, perhaps which accounts for the differing views…..!!




I mean this forum is a distraction, and it's amusing when the minions go for the jugular at your defense!


I still care about the issues raised, sir!


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> I mean this forum is a distraction, and it's amusing when the minions go for the jugular at your defense!
> 
> 
> I still care about the issues raised, sir!


You may be confusing ‘minions’ with people who have their own views!

I am quite capable of fighting my own corner……!!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I'll admit that was a tad disrespectful, for which I am sorry, but the same could be said for many of the things they retorted with when they jumped to your defence. I have no doubt you are able to deal with your own conflicts, but you have to admit that at times, you do seem to have a habit of standing back and letting your followers close in. It's kinda funny.

You're also well adept at avoiding questions, but dealing with politicians as I'm told you do with the whole FBH thing, then I'm not too surprised by that 

Anyway....it's saturday night, I've had a heavy day at work, and I have some booze to drink now which probably makes me an incredibly irresponsible animal keeper!:roll2:

Bonne nuit!


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> I'll admit that was a tad disrespectful, but the same could be said for many of the things they retorted with when they jumped to your defence. I have no doubt you are able to deal with your own conflicts, but you have to admit that at times, you do seem to have a habit of standing back and letting your followers close in. It's kinda funny.
> 
> You're also well adept at avoiding questions, but dealing with politicians as I'm told you do with the whole FBH thing, then I'm not too surprised by that
> 
> ...


 
I am the most politically incorrect person on the planet, I just speak as I find – sometimes people don’t like that. However, don’t confuse avoiding question with you don’t like the answer…..!!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> However, don’t confuse avoiding question with you don’t like the answer…..!!


I'm not. But I've asked at least one question on here about your statistics that you failed to answer.


----------



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> I'm not. But I've asked at least one question on here about your statistics that you failed to answer.


Refresh my memory…….


----------

