# Dart Viv Build Project



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

NEVER listen to philbaines :lol2: 

Of course since he suggested it i just couldnt RESIST building my own glass viv *sigh* my OH and flatmate have all but disowned me... again.... 

I have a black stand 60cm x 30cm base so i thought id get something to fit it perfectly, decided upon all my dimensions (50cm high), found a fab glass cutters not far from me to do me ALL the glass for £30 :flrt:

So far all ive done is build the glass viv (see here for instructions/destructions depending upon your skill and patience level...) Dendroworld • Login and ive put the runners on and covered the inside with black silicone. I decided to make it without a glass false bottom as ill be doing a pauldarium type viv requiring egg crate for access to underneath the land area. 

Pics so far (wow it looks messy....) 
















































The plan is: exo terra hood to light it, expanding foam and black silicone and eco earth background with plants and sticks etc, false bottom made of egg crate, filter underneath the false bottom and a pump under there also, pump will push water up over a log to drip down. Hopefully it might look pretty :lol2:

I still need to collect the doors and two thin strips of glass to cover the mesh on the top, then the interior design can start... lol ill update this thread over the next few days whenever anything exciting/hilarious happens


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

I look forward to seeing it your tanks are awesome!


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## chulainn (Nov 29, 2009)

:devil::devil:i am expecting this to be beter than the last and then for you to sell me it

have fun


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## liamb111 (Apr 2, 2010)

looking good, will be interesting to see how it turn out.

and btw, loving your house wine! :whistling2:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

:lol2: thanks all, it looks not all that impressive atm to be honest.. but i just started collecting bits and pieces and im hopeful it will be a pretty little finished item 



liamb111 said:


> looking good, will be interesting to see how it turn out.
> 
> and btw, loving your house wine! :whistling2:


:lol2: i forgot all about that  :notworthy: cant beat jager :flrt:


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

good start it :2thumb:was your dartfrog round 2 post that got me into live tanks and the like


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## philbaines (Aug 23, 2007)

Ha ha loving it....
Looking good tho mate! Told you it's easy enough to do.


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## dannyj (Jan 23, 2007)

looking good so far - look forard to seeing the finished article


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

great work mate,i suppose it was the only thing you hadn't done:lol2: Yeah your right that Phil bloke has a lot to answer for:bash: The bugger keeps inspiring me too..................and the scarey bit ......you tested for water yet?..................i hate that bit..stu


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

philbaines said:


> Ha ha loving it....
> Looking good tho mate! Told you it's easy enough to do.


:lol2: yeah i actually really enjoyed it, my poor OH was there for about an hour holding bits of glass for me while i got plastered in silicone... hehe.... was great! After all the bits for it it only works out about £20 cheaper than buying one but its EXACTLY what i wanted and its a good feeling  Will definitely do this again in the future  ive had to order more black silicone as one tube wasnt quite enough to do all the glass properly (as you can probably see) and im gonna need a couple of tubes to cover the background when ive foamed it... ah this should be fun lol.

Ive managed to find a decent internal filter with a powerhead strong enough for what i need it for so yaaay! :2thumb:




soundstounite said:


> great work mate,i suppose it was the only thing you hadn't done:lol2: Yeah your right that Phil bloke has a lot to answer for:bash: The bugger keeps inspiring me too..................and the scarey bit ......you tested for water yet?..................i hate that bit..stu


:lol2: yes! It is water tight oo: - we have a wet room so we carried it in there to test it... not that we were at all worried of course..... :roll:


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## philbaines (Aug 23, 2007)

I love the fact I'm inspireing people,

I hope I inspire you guys to also give me any froglets you breed......lol.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Probably a silly question, but why the black silicon? Does it make it easier to attach stuff?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

philbaines said:


> I love the fact I'm inspireing people,
> 
> I hope I inspire you guys to also give me any froglets you breed......lol.


Lovely try m'dear  




Ron Magpie said:


> Probably a silly question, but why the black silicon? Does it make it easier to attach stuff?



Well, on top of the black silicone will go expanding foam to make the background. So firstly you coat the glass so that from the outside you dont see a big mass of gross gooey nasty looking funny coloured expanding foam lol, but also the glass is so smooth the expanding foam will fall off over time, whereas it sticks much better to the silicone which has a rougher surface and a much higher surface area. Most expanding foam is moisture curing so you spray the silicone (which holds water better than glass upon which the water just slides down and doesnt stay wet very long) so this may be another reason. 



Argh i wish everything in the post would hurry up - i cant do anything else until it arrives


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Why not just paint the back with acrylic paint? Costs like a fraction of the price and takes two minutes.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Why not just paint the back with acrylic paint? Costs like a fraction of the price and takes two minutes.



Acrylic peels off glass over time, this is about longevity of the viv and i dont want the background to fall off :lol2: plus id worry about additives in the paint - the viv is essentially going to be a 'wet room' id worry about anything leaching from the paint into the water supply. I get black aquarium silicone pretty cheap, its worth it for the peace of mind.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> Acrylic peels off glass over time, this is about longevity of the viv and i dont want the background to fall off :lol2: plus id worry about additives in the paint - the viv is essentially going to be a 'wet room' id worry about anything leaching from the paint into the water supply. I get black aquarium silicone pretty cheap, its worth it for the peace of mind.


Ok. So I wasn't completely wrong, then!:no1:


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> Acrylic peels off glass over time, this is about longevity of the viv and i dont want the background to fall off :lol2: plus id worry about additives in the paint - the viv is essentially going to be a 'wet room' id worry about anything leaching from the paint into the water supply. I get black aquarium silicone pretty cheap, its worth it for the peace of mind.


 
i used glass paint from hobbycraft(not sure what sort of paint) cost me about 2£ i was worried about it coming off i picked at it rubbed it even using a knife you can hardly make a scratch in the stuff you should try it :2thumb: just paint the outside of the viv that way no harm to the froggies


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

sambridge15 said:


> i used glass paint from hobbycraft(not sure what sort of paint) cost me about 2£ i was worried about it coming off i picked at it rubbed it even using a knife you can hardly make a scratch in the stuff you should try it :2thumb: just paint the outside of the viv that way no harm to the froggies


Could do - but painting the outside doesnt look as good as the pristine 'black glass' look. It would look like the inside of the viv in the pics now - hardly a 'pro finish'.

Plus as i said - the adhesion of foam to glass is not great, it is much better when sticking to silicone. I tried this first hand - i made a similar background in a cave gecko viv and one side was siliconed as you would see the outside, but i didnt bother with the back - all the foam started peeling away on the back after time, whereas the silicone side was perfect. I dont want any problems happening here. 

The tube of silicone cost me £6, hardly going to break the bank... im going to use about an eighth of another tube to 'perfect' the coverage. So call the silicone job a total £7.... its worth it. I cant see a better method - of course this is just my opinion


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Small update, ive got the sides covered fully in silicone now and ive added trim to make the outside of the viv all pretty. Functioning doors are in and ive put little handles on, ive got EVERYTHING i need to carry on with the viv EXCEPT the filter and the pump which i need for a size guide so i know how high to make the false bottom  argh i cant do anything until they are here, i wish it would hurry! 

Anyway few piccies:





































I just noticed the reflection in the glass in that last pic.... this is what ive still got sat in the living room..... oh dear... that filter and pump better arrive soon, me thinks i shant be remaining in the OH's good books for much longer... :lol2:


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

looking good...um, what's with the steamer in your pile of stuff on the couch? 

Anywho...if it makes you feel any better, my house looks worse, least you will be left with an awesome tank!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> looking good...um, what's with the steamer in your pile of stuff on the couch?
> 
> Anywho...if it makes you feel any better, my house looks worse, least you will be left with an awesome tank!


:lol2: note the taters on the right hand side of the sofa too?

I was cleaning the kitchen and thats where it got put


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ha HA i was gonna ask about the spud an steamer as well but ilt2 beat me:Na_Na_Na_Na: so mate here is the serious ish Q.As far as i can see there is no front vent under the doors i get what you are saying about a "wetroom" viv i think but why no vent? what have i missed?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Ha HA i was gonna ask about the spud an steamer as well but ilt2 beat me:Na_Na_Na_Na: so mate here is the serious ish Q.As far as i can see there is no front vent under the doors i get what you are saying about a "wetroom" viv i think but why no vent? what have i missed?


Aha, this viv will be a 'paludarium' when its finished, as you can imagine a front vent would get very messy and soak my living room with splashing and whatnot from the water part :lol2:

There is plenty of ventilation in the large mesh at the top : victory:

The front vent under the doors would usually provide stability for the bottom runner, i have solved that problem by sticking a single very thin strong strip of glass over the front pane of glass to support the runner and doors : victory:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Aha:2thumb: the P word but don't ask me to spell it,:blush: now i'm up to speed......ish(am tortiose) do ya think the doors will mist up without the through flow of air?.....curious ain't i


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

cant wait to see this finished! :2thumb:


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

i expect this will be another masterpiece :2thumb: but as Stu said you might get trouble with the doors misting up without a vent below, especially if your going to keep darts in there with the high humidity. Will be interesting to see though


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

richie.b said:


> i expect this will be another masterpiece :2thumb: but as Stu said you might get trouble with the doors misting up without a vent below, especially if your going to keep darts in there with the high humidity. Will be interesting to see though


i get alot of water and mist on my tank, i use an aquarium magnet cleaner reversed so the soft side is inside to wipe away the condensation :lol2:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Aha:2thumb: the P word but don't ask me to spell it,:blush: now i'm up to speed......ish(am tortiose) do ya think the doors will mist up without the through flow of air?.....curious ain't i


Aha ive already thought of this possibility, i will first wait and see what happens because in my other two paludariums the water is at the front of the viv (as it will be here) and neither mist up, however neither will be QUITE as humid as a dart viv so we will have to wait and see what happens there. However, my masterplan if it does steam up is A: see if i can deal with it (lol :roll or B: Fit a fan to the top of the viv either side of the doors which would direct humidity away from the doors and provide good air circulation around the viv. I cant take credit for this idea though, i stole it from a german guy on another forum :lol2: it worked though 



onemanandhisgecko said:


> i get alot of water and mist on my tank, i use an aquarium magnet cleaner reversed so the soft side is inside to wipe away the condensation :lol2:


Genious! (and much less of an arseabout than my method!!) :lol2:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Small update - im STILL waiting for the filter :devil:

I have recieved the canopy and uv bulbs though :flrt: hurrah i can see what im doing! lol



















Theres some glare from the lights reflecting from the glass at the front due to a small gap under the canopy, so im going to use a tiny bit of trim to seal that up


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

WOO HOO - filter arrived! (really late - post came after 12 for some reason? even though it came earlier at 9am too with a different package??? anyhoo...)

Ive had a fun afternoon 

First of all i used the filter and pump height to determine how tall to make the bottom off the base, and cut plastic pipe to length (in this case i cut five pieces 3.5" long each) the pipe was HUGE (like 2m) and was only a couple of quid from B&Q. Then i drilled 2 holes in each pipe to fix the egg crate to later.

Then i cut egg crate to size and ive got a slanting piece at the front that stops about an inch before the front of the viv. In this i cut a panel out so i can gain access to the filter and pump for cleaning. The egg crate and the pipe is all held together with cable ties. 





































I then used heavy duty weed fabric to cover the entire false bottom. 



















Heres the small filter (fluval) and the pump (eheim). The wires from both are fed through a piece of blue tubing. This will be stuck into the background - the wires will be free to remove from the viv if i ever need to replace either the pump or the filter. The wires will poke out of the mesh at the top of the viv. 









So heres the false bottom in place with the water feature outlet tube and the tube containing the wires for the pump/filter in place. 










The panel in the false bottom is secured with a cable tie, when it comes to clean the filter/pump i will just snip this and replace it with a new one afterwards.









Heres the 2 tubes, these will be covered with expanding foam when making the background. 









The top of the tubes will be trimmed to length when the background is finished:









Finally, i used aquarium silicone to stick the bottom of the false bottom to the viv, this is just to hold it in place for now (and when i turn the viv on its back to make the background) and also to stop stones etc from in front of the base getting behind the false bottom. 


















Thats enough for today i think... lol.


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

yeah the aquarium magnet really cleans the water away nicely mate. good progress so far, quite excited to see the finished product get a move on! lol


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

onemanandhisgecko said:


> yeah the aquarium magnet really cleans the water away nicely mate. good progress so far, quite excited to see the finished product get a move on! lol


:lol2: patience is a virtue  im being dragged out with my OH, his boss and our gay friend for a meal tonight (lol sounds like an episode of will and grace...) and im going to visit the parental units this weekend so more progress will have to wait till early next week  im off ALL day on tuesday though so i shall make progress destroying the flat and building this contraption then :lol2:


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

contraption lol, have a good evening and weekend. what do you have planned in your head for the tank anything you have visualised yet? water feature etc?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

onemanandhisgecko said:


> contraption lol, have a good evening and weekend. what do you have planned in your head for the tank anything you have visualised yet? water feature etc?


Thanks :2thumb:

And yeeees i have a couple of plans, the green tube in the pics is the outlet for the pump so this will be a waterfall. This viv is actually gonna be pretty simple to be honest, the background is simply expanding foam covered in aquarium black silicone and coir, with wood/corkbark/stones/mushrooms and flowerpots stuck in it, and simple live planting broms and the like.

In this one, i am actually planning on doing it without a bioactive substrate (shock horror! thats not like me! lol!) Purely to keep the water clean and clear, i will be using fern panels or corkbark and live moss sheets as a substrate : victory: we'll see how it turns out.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

ha ha thought you'd have a way round,(sorry for slow reply am REALLY tearing our house up for da frog room),clever sods them germans,we've got some catching up methinks.Whats the tank for?


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Oh come on! Hurry up. I wanna see this finished!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> ha ha thought you'd have a way round,(sorry for slow reply am REALLY tearing our house up for da frog room),clever sods them germans,we've got some catching up methinks.Whats the tank for?


Lol, ahaa i really dont know, i cant decide which species. I love the R vanzolinii but i may just wait until im ready then see what takes my fancy 



ipreferaflan said:


> Oh come on! Hurry up. I wanna see this finished!


Patience :devil:

:lol2:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Yeah we hear ya mate,them there vanzo's are a bit sweet:flrt: but man are they small we are seriosly taken with 'em, sorry kiddo how bigs the viv and what do ya recon is a fair size for 'em kinda like a pum viv or aren't they as aboreal,have only seen them regularly at marcs:blush: and they have always been low in the viv,of course have me books just wanted your opinion really,oh an sorry for the impatient one......HE plays guitar,and i won't even mention where he's from:notworthy:mind you i'm no better stuffed me foot through the bathroom ceiling today.........oh great:blush:....nearly sorted though ...and you think you trash the place for the frogs ...ha but at least i can say but babe the're for you!!.....you will get your house back oneday:gasp::2thumb:....stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Yeah we hear ya mate,them there vanzo's are a bit sweet:flrt: but man are they small we are seriosly taken with 'em, sorry kiddo how bigs the viv and what do ya recon is a fair size for 'em kinda like a pum viv or aren't they as aboreal,have only seen them regularly at marcs:blush: and they have always been low in the viv,of course have me books just wanted your opinion really,oh an sorry for the impatient one......HE plays guitar,and i won't even mention where he's from:notworthy:mind you i'm no better stuffed me foot through the bathroom ceiling today.........oh great:blush:....nearly sorted though ...and you think you trash the place for the frogs ...ha but at least i can say but babe the're for you!!.....you will get your house back oneday:gasp::2thumb:....stu


Stu, have you been using Morgans' meds???:gasp:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

No mate....i steal shaz's morphine patches:blush::gasp::2thumb::Na_Na_Na_Na:....ha ha i really did put me foot in it today.......REALLY....hard day mate ....really hard


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

OK so i got home from the midlands early and couldnt resist doing some stuff on the viv :lol2:

Backgrounds in place :2thumb:










Left hand side:









Middle (note waterfall area on the right):









This will be a small waterfall, its really difficult to show the shape of the depression carved into the foam in the pics but hopefully you get the idea:









Right hand side:









Whole lot again:










Jobs for tomorrow:
Carve any rough bits of foam away.
Cut spaces for dried mushrooms.
Silicone mushrooms in place.
Cover background in black silicone and stick eco earth to silicone.
Resist urge to plant the viv until the silicone is dry.... 

Ive been to dartfrog this morning too, got some peat pannels, moss, terra safe and oodles of plants. Hurrah :flrt:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

how do ya plant mate(ie whats your potting mix) as we can't see any drainage from your pots?will you use a misting system or mist by hand?


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## philbaines (Aug 23, 2007)

Now arn't you glad I suggested to build your own-it's looking fab!


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## dannyj (Jan 23, 2007)

looking really good so far - iv not got patience to attempt it

:2thumb:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> how do ya plant mate(ie whats your potting mix) as we can't see any drainage from your pots?will you use a misting system or mist by hand?


ALWAYS with the criticism :roll: 

There is no need for drainage in those pots, as the plants will only get water from the humidity of the air or from the spray from misting - therefore the soil will not get the chance to get waterlogged and the plants should be just fine. I have found in the past that solid plant pots get waterlogged, however these orchid net ones ive used here do not - i dont know if this is due to the surface area involved or if the foam wicks water away from the soil i dont know. But anyway ive never had a problem 

I will be misting by hand, and the soil mix will just be the soil in the pots already contained with the plants. They are from dartfrog so will have been grown in that soil - so will have the nutrients they need and there will be no dangerous-to-frogs fertilizers in there either. 



philbaines said:


> Now arn't you glad I suggested to build your own-it's looking fab!


Yes indeed i am! Thank you :notworthy: the plants are reaaaaally pretty im itching to get them in but i know it will be more like 48 hours before i get the chance :devil:

(i was born impatient...)



dannyj said:


> looking really good so far - iv not got patience to attempt it
> 
> :2thumb:


Fankoo :notworthy:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Totally not criticism mate i just know you know way more than us about this and was wondering if i spent ages providing all our plants with drainage for nothing:lol2:...SORRY if i offended you it was not my intention :blush:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> *ALWAYS with the criticism *:roll:
> 
> There is no need for drainage in those pots, as the plants will only get water from the humidity of the air or from the spray from misting - therefore the soil will not get the chance to get waterlogged and the plants should be just fine. I have found in the past that solid plant pots get waterlogged, however these orchid net ones ive used here do not - i dont know if this is due to the surface area involved or if the foam wicks water away from the soil i dont know. But anyway ive never had a problem
> 
> ...


Sorry, but that wasn't fair. Stu has been working on his own new project, and has been asking far and wide for advice, info and feedback. If he's asking, it's 'cos he wants to know what and why you are doing, not 'cos he's putting anyone down. We are all here to learn, after all...:whistling2:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Totally not criticism mate i just know you know way more than us about this and was wondering if i spent ages providing all our plants with drainage for nothing:lol2:...SORRY if i offended you it was not my intention :blush:





Ron Magpie said:


> Sorry, but that wasn't fair. Stu has been working on his own new project, and has been asking far and wide for advice, info and feedback. If he's asking, it's 'cos he wants to know what and why you are doing, not 'cos he's putting anyone down. We are all here to learn, after all...:whistling2:


Woah i wasnt having a go! I thought sarcasm was implied in there :lol2: *shakes head* clearly its more difficult to get across without a raised eyebrow and sarcastic tone of voice.... I dont mind questions - thats why i post threads like this up with pics to hopefully give people ideas (i know i spend hours trailing through the internet for pics of people building similar things) and for people to point out where i may be going wrong (a regular occurrence i can assure you...) Ill watch my wording in future... :whistling2:



To continue the thread: Ive added the mushrooms, and im high as a kite having plastered the background in silicone and eco earth. Gonna leave it for a few hours and brush off any excess to find any bald patches and cover everything thoroughly. Ive also cut the outlet for the water feature to length and cut a small hole in the mesh to poke the power cables out of. More pics later.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> Woah i wasnt having a go!* I thought sarcasm was implied in there* :lol2: *shakes head* clearly its more difficult to get across without a raised eyebrow and sarcastic tone of voice.... I dont mind questions - thats why i post threads like this up with pics to hopefully give people ideas (i know i spend hours trailing through the internet for pics of people building similar things) and for people to point out where i may be going wrong (a regular occurrence i can assure you...) Ill watch my wording in future... :whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> To continue the thread: Ive added the mushrooms, and im high as a kite having plastered the background in silicone and eco earth. Gonna leave it for a few hours and brush off any excess to find any bald patches and cover everything thoroughly. Ive also cut the outlet for the water feature to length and cut a small hole in the mesh to poke the power cables out of. More pics later.


I'm sure not- he really wants to know. As do I. But anyway, full credit to you, this project gets more spectacular all the time!:2thumb:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> I'm sure not- he really wants to know. As do I. But anyway, full credit to you, this project gets more spectacular all the time!:2thumb:


Lol i meant 'i thought the sarcasm was implied there' in MY response up there... not his original comment! This hole im digging just gets bigger and bigger.... anyway - aside from my utter failure at being able to articulate properly on the tinterwebs... i have been busy and have pics for you 


Background covered in black aquarium silicone and eco earth:



















Then once dry i brushed it off and cleaned it up:




























Then came the 'land area substrate' - i didnt want to use soil as it would go straight into the water and be minging, so ive used sawn peat plates (which should grow mosses very quickly when constantly wet) and carpet moss between the peat plates. 










Pretty stick:









Then the fun part, planting:











































































Tomorrow im going to fill the bottom with water and test the water feature, and tweak the flow rate on the pump if i need to and make any necessary adjustments to the outlet pipe. Once thats all working ok, i will add aquarium gravel and pebbles to the water area, and slate to cover the slanting weed fabric at the front.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Looks very impressive!

What wood is that you have used?


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## Jezza84 (Dec 9, 2009)

looks awsome :2thumb: very nice indeed!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

detail3r said:


> Looks very impressive!
> 
> What wood is that you have used?



I believe its just driftwood, it was bought for a small fortune from Oasis fish shop not far from me. Whats bizarre though, is obviously this is sold for an aquarium yes? Well, i soaked it overnight to make sure its all clean and all that - and the entire time, it FLOATED. Id be well p*ssed if it was for my aquarium :lol2: looks alright here tho


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> I believe its just driftwood, it was bought for a small fortune from Oasis fish shop not far from me. Whats bizarre though, is obviously this is sold for an aquarium yes? Well, i soaked it overnight to make sure its all clean and all that - and the entire time, it FLOATED. Id be well p*ssed if it was for my aquarium :lol2: looks alright here tho



All bogwood/driftwood does that. You leave it floating for a few days and it will sink.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> All bogwood/driftwood does that. You leave it floating for a few days and it will sink.


Ah well my OH said that but said every time hes had it in the past with his fishes they'd all sunk within a few hours. Seems a poor wood of choice for fish tanks if it likes to float more than anything :lol2:

*shrug* works for me


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

chondro13 said:


> I believe its just driftwood, it was bought for a small fortune from Oasis fish shop not far from me. Whats bizarre though, is obviously this is sold for an aquarium yes? Well, i soaked it overnight to make sure its all clean and all that - and the entire time, it FLOATED. Id be well p*ssed if it was for my aquarium :lol2: looks alright here tho


I think i'll just go on the hunt for some Oak branches tomorrow: victory:


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## philbaines (Aug 23, 2007)

You should be very proud off yourself Hun, it looks amazing!

Re.peat plates.
Soak them for 24hours then put them in the viv under high lux lighting to get the moss to grow


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

detail3r said:


> I think i'll just go on the hunt for some Oak branches tomorrow: victory:


I always do that for the snake vivs - i tend to go for hazel or fruit trees, whenever ive worked with oak (making furniture or whatever) i find its very acidic and it hurts like hell if you get any sawdust from oak in your eyes, so ive never used it for dartfrogs as im paranoid about that - but it should be ok from what others have said!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

philbaines said:


> You should be very proud off yourself Hun, it looks amazing!
> 
> Re.peat plates.
> Soak them for 24hours then put them in the viv under high lux lighting to get the moss to grow


Oooh thank you! Ill get them soaking now then and stick the UV lights on tomorrow  you star!


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## stewie m (Sep 16, 2009)

stunning viv im going to be attempting this expanding foam at some point


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

stewie m said:


> stunning viv im going to be attempting this expanding foam at some point


Give it a go! Aside from the planting its the most satisfying part lol! :2thumb:


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## dannyj (Jan 23, 2007)

looks stunning really does - what is the dainty little fiscus i think?
thats what i want 

i hope mine looks half as good as yours - personally i think you should come do mine now:whistling2:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

dannyj said:


> looks stunning really does - what is the dainty little fiscus i think?
> thats what i want
> 
> i hope mine looks half as good as yours - personally i think you should come do mine now:whistling2:


:lol2: thanks - and i would, but you have no idea how much i destroyed my flat making this.... im sure the people(s) you live with would be less than thrilled by my whirlwind methods  

And about the plants... er.... i did know the scientific names for most of them.... but now have totally forgotten everything - it should all be on dartfrog.co.uk to be honest - its a pretty extensive plant list and im sure you can match up the pictures :lol2: im sorry im not less crap at this remembering thing... :blush:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Woo finished oo:

So i tested the pump - its a little too strong even on the lowest setting and was coming out too far away from the background rather than trickling down it. So i improvised (and managed to cover the green tube water outlet in the process..)

This slate was used to deflect the flow and slow it:









Once that was all done, i added a few pebbles to the water area (need more - this is still too deep for my liking) but aside from that - its pretty much done :2thumb:




































Little video:
YouTube - DSCN3734


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Looks great! :2thumb:


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

great job as ever :2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Spectacular:2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

What's going in there?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> What's going in there?


 Seems odd to see *you* ask that question...:lol2:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks all :2thumb: i quite like the simplicity of this one. 



Morgan Freeman said:


> What's going in there?





Ron Magpie said:


> Seems odd to see *you* ask that question...:lol2:


Now now... play nice kids...


This is a display tank for the living room so i want something quite big and bold for in there, im thinking either simply azureus, or splashbacks or terriblis or mysteriosis..... not that im undecided or anything :roll:

Any suggestions?


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> Thanks all :2thumb: i quite like the simplicity of this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My vote is on mint terribilis. Looks good!


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## berksmike (Jan 2, 2008)

Looking fantastic. Terribs are lovely but so are splashbacks. Splashbacks really are so much more spectacular in the flesh.


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

wrong place


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## Brierley (Oct 4, 2009)

Amazing, you make it seem so easy!


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## stewie m (Sep 16, 2009)

stunning 

i deffo need to have go with the expanding foam


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks all - and boo for confliction opinions on occupants :lol2:



Brierley said:


> Amazing, you make it seem so easy!


It IS i promise! Give it a go :no1:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd be worried about the Terribilis with the water, they're big and fat.

Do you have leucs? They'd love the height aswell.

Or maybe a rarer tinc morph?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'd be worried about the Terribilis with the water, they're big and fat.
> 
> Do you have leucs? They'd love the height aswell.
> 
> Or maybe a rarer tinc morph?


As i said the water level will be MUCH lower before i add frogs - im gonna be putting loads more pebbles in. Im too paranoid to risk them drowning regardless of the species. 

Ive never been a huge leuc fan (weird i know) but my OH loves them... if he pays ill let him :lol2:


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

love it, another good job!! and i will prove to you all that leucs can live safely with a deep water feature (i am thinking of hiring a lifegaurd):lol2:

if i fail then i will eat the tank and return to the forum ashamed and with my tail between my legs lol

really good tank though chondro


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I wasn't a leuc fan, until I saw them in the flesh, either. However photographs do NOT do them justice, they're gorgeous frogs with real character.

I've seen mint terriblis as well, and have to say they were, uhm, not that impressive except in size. *runs off and hides*

Ade


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

onemanandhisgecko said:


> love it, another good job!! and i will prove to you all that leucs can live safely with a deep water feature (i am thinking of hiring a lifegaurd):lol2:
> 
> if i fail then i will eat the tank and return to the forum ashamed and with my tail between my legs lol
> 
> really good tank though chondro


 
:lol2: im sure they will be fine - its just a friend of mine had one drown in a brom vase (like 1cm of water?) stupidest frog ever im sure but ill always be paranoid about it. 

I love the size of yours but my oh would kill me if i made ANOTHER... :whistling2: maybe.... hehe....


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Terribilis are awesome. Big fat badass.


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Terribilis are awesome. Big fat badass.


how big do they get?


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> :lol2: im sure they will be fine - its just a friend of mine had one drown in a brom vase (like 1cm of water?) stupidest frog ever im sure but ill always be paranoid about it.
> 
> I love the size of yours but my oh would kill me if i made ANOTHER... :whistling2: maybe.... hehe....


 
ive got a small tank im gonna make for tadpoles about 1footx1footx1foot gonna try using these same methods but on a smaller scale ill post pics :2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

onemanandhisgecko said:


> how big do they get?


Not loads bigger than any of the other larger darts, they're just very round and plump looking.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Hey you,1 its a stupendously beautifull tank,slap yourself for being tooooo good:lol2::lol2:2 if ya don't have woodworm then i'll/We'll come and live in it ....and 3,catorgorically and without question that should be the home for some orange splashbacks,(its the only colour missing :whistling2:so quadrat et demonstradum),and as you know with me(there is always a serious...'erm...ish...Q. how deep will you feel safe with,your water depth?...I totally appreciate what your saying about darts being crap swimmers,but these guys live in such a wet environment,they must come into contact with huge quantities of water,(i have a pic in me lotters book of a little leuc...bless....next to a very fast flowing stream which i guess must be at least 5_10 feet wide),god this one is messing with me,also so many of the european guys use these palurdiums there must be a way round this,deep water issue without comprimising dart safety...yours stu


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

The interesting thing I read was that when ill darts will goto water and if serious they will die, therefore leading people to beleive they drowned. Tht forum I posted in one of my threads there were a number of breeders questioning the dart frog drowning myth. I'm sure there are risks as with a lot of things in life but you don't need webbed feet as a requirement to swim. Google dart frog drowning myth and you will find the discussion i mentioned.


Sorry to hijack ur thread chondro! As I said stunning tank


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Hey you,1 its a stupendously beautifull tank,slap yourself for being tooooo good:lol2::lol2:2 if ya don't have woodworm then i'll/We'll come and live in it ....and 3,catorgorically and without question that should be the home for some orange splashbacks,(its the only colour missing :whistling2:so quadrat et demonstradum),and as you know with me(there is always a serious...'erm...ish...Q. how deep will you feel safe with,your water depth?...I totally appreciate what your saying about darts being crap swimmers,but these guys live in such a wet environment,they must come into contact with huge quantities of water,(i have a pic in me lotters book of a little leuc...bless....next to a very fast flowing stream which i guess must be at least 5_10 feet wide),god this one is messing with me,also so many of the european guys use these palurdiums there must be a way round this,deep water issue without comprimising dart safety...yours stu


I think the issue here is that in the wild - yes they would come across water, but in captivity if provided with water they have no way of getting away from it - its always there and its always a risk - its up to the keeper whether or not they wish to take that risk. Ive seen it myself - dart frogs CAN swim. But they really, truly, are not good at it. One on its own can drown, but more than one (especially two females) have been seen to actually drown each other. 

In my opinion (and this is MY opinion - not fact!) a cm or two of water is OK so long as there are lots of ways for them to get out easily. Even this is still a risk - as frogs can drown each other (or be stupid enough to drown themselves) in as little as this. Again - its a risk. I know its a risk. But in this paludarium i have here i am happy to have a little water at the front ranging from 0 - 2cm in depth. I will be keeping large darts (species undecided lol!) so it shouldnt be too much of a problem here. 

All that said - some european keepers have VERY deep water - and have had darts in there for several months with no problems! As i say - its up to the keeper 




onemanandhisgecko said:


> The interesting thing I read was that when ill darts will goto water and if serious they will die, therefore leading people to beleive they drowned. Tht forum I posted in one of my threads there were a number of breeders questioning the dart frog drowning myth. I'm sure there are risks as with a lot of things in life but you don't need webbed feet as a requirement to swim. Google dart frog drowning myth and you will find the discussion i mentioned.
> 
> 
> Sorry to hijack ur thread chondro! As I said stunning tank


No worries at all! Its not hijacking - conversation is good :2thumb:


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> I think the issue here is that in the wild - yes they would come across water, but in captivity if provided with water they have no way of getting away from it - its always there and its always a risk - its up to the keeper whether or not they wish to take that risk. Ive seen it myself - dart frogs CAN swim. But they really, truly, are not good at it. One on its own can drown, but more than one (especially two females) have been seen to actually drown each other.
> 
> In my opinion (and this is MY opinion - not fact!) a cm or two of water is OK so long as there are lots of ways for them to get out easily. Even this is still a risk - as frogs can drown each other (or be stupid enough to drown themselves) in as little as this. Again - its a risk. I know its a risk. But in this paludarium i have here i am happy to have a little water at the front ranging from 0 - 2cm in depth. I will be keeping large darts (species undecided lol!) so it shouldnt be too much of a problem here.
> 
> ...


i would say there is more of a risk having shallow water with an incline to land than deep water with steep sides, like you say sometimes females like to stand on each other and im by no means an expert but i understand this is a dominance/territory thing?, this is not possible with a water feature with steep sides and nothing for the frog to hold the other frog down on, as with 1-2 cm or or etc then the frog could trap said frog in the water.

who has seen another frog drown or wrestle another frog to water and drown it, you would have actually had to stand by and watch as the frog drowned and done nothing about it?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

onemanandhisgecko said:


> i would say there is more of a risk having shallow water with an incline to land than deep water with steep sides, like you say sometimes females like to stand on each other and im by no means an expert but i understand this is a dominance/territory thing?, this is not possible with a water feature with steep sides and nothing for the frog to hold the other frog down on, as with 1-2 cm or or etc then the frog could trap said frog in the water.
> 
> who has seen another frog drown or wrestle another frog to water and drown it, you would have actually had to stand by and watch as the frog drowned and done nothing about it?


You make a good point - but if one frog really wanted to drown another they would just stand guard by the edge of the water and wait for the one in the deep water to tire out and drown that way. The problem with steep sides is that frogs who fall in simply cant get out at all and will just perish. Its much safer to have shallow water with slanting sides and keep male-heavy groups of frogs that can get out of their own accord, than risk deep water or female groups at all. 

About your last sentence - i believe people have watched their frogs wrestle and actually seen one female hold another down under the water trying to kill her - im sure if any keeper actually saw this they would have split them up but reported what they saw. It would be a bit macabre for someone to let them kill each other without separating just to report the incident :lol2:


On another note, the viv has been running for over 24 hours now with a 12 hour light cycle and ive not sprayed it once. Im pleased to report i put a hygrometer in there yesterday, (one that measures high/low points over 24 hours) - the majority of the time it is around 86% - 89% humidity, the highest point over the last 24 hours was 90%, and the lowest (i assume during the middle of the night when the lights were off and the water condensed when it was cooler) was 82% humidity. Hurrah i only need to spray to clean the leaves on the plants :lol2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I might have to copy your design at some point! Only with acrylic as I found a cool supplier.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I might have to copy your design at some point! Only with acrylic as I found a cool supplier.


ahaaa good idea, i almost thought about making a viv out of that plastic that you use for conservatory roofs but decided glass wasnt that much more expensive.... may have to do that another time tho  hehe....


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

i couldnt imagine that the frogs would have such a murderous intent they would stand by and wait for another frog to drown, or even contemplate or recognise water as a method of getting rid of their competition. that is why they stand on each other to show dominance then the other will simply go off to a different area/territory.



> I feel it is only reasonable for us to go through factual information to let newbies know what to expect. The statement that darts "drown easily" is just not factual. It would be similar to saying that humans drown easily. Yes, if a 300 pound guys sits on my head which is under water for long enough I will drown. But lets get into what happens with darts.
> First off, we should know how to set up a viv so as to have as little stress and aggression as possible. This includes communal morphing containers also. If we know that same sexes of certain species do not get along with each other , and can/will fight, water should not be the first or only thing to be worried about. Simply don't place same sexes together if there is a potential for fighting. A mating male or female is not going to hold down a mate and drown it. Evolution does not work that way.
> Second, I have debated the issue of frog drowning for many years and it always seems that there is someone who thinks that (absolute speculation, as of right now) there frog drown , because they found it in water. Necropsy? No. As stated above , darts will go to water when they are ill. Darts that are ill can die. Ill darts which go to water and do not recover from an illness can be found in water without having drown.
> My point is that I have seen plenty of darts jump into water features, swim around, stay under for very, very long periods of time and have yet to find one drown. I have also yet to see one of my frogs drag, wrestle , throw , or maneuver in any way a fighting partner into water. Is it possible for darts to drown? Absolutely. They have lungs. Do I believe many, if not the very vast majority of dart deaths attributed to drownings to be caused by illness or something besides drowning? Absolutely. And if you think about it, the only real way to know for certain it a dart drown was to watch it happen. Or do a necropsy (as I have done, many times) .Any idea how long it takes an amphibian to actually drown? I don't either, but it is a lot longer than mammals. A lot.
> ...





> Many darts love to swim around and I have yet to attribute a dart death to drowning. They are frogs, and do quite well in water. Many dive in to escape danger , in fact. Stay down for quite some time, only to pop back up later, just fine. Anyone who would have witnessed a true drowning would have had to watch as the dart stayed under water for a very, very long time, all the while doing nothing to save said frog.
> My point is this. Many times darts go to water when ill. It may be to leach out worms or toxins, it may be to simply feel more comfortable. But sick frogs head for water many times. Many sick frogs do not make it and are found dead in water. The assumption that a dead frog found in water died from drowning is one I have yet to scientifically seen proven. Ever. I have had necropsies done on more than a frog or two , early on in my keeping experience, that were found dead in the water that had medical issue not at all related to drowning.





> As far as water features go, I've never had a dart frog drown in one, even the paludariums with fish in the deeper aquarium sections. They can and do swim, although it's mostly like skimming across the top of the water like Jesus than real swimming. As long as they can get out, there's no problem. My Galactonotus even deliberately dive in after fruit flies, although they have plenty of floating aquarium leaves to do it from and never actually "swim" like a bull frog, just skitter from place to place on top. Even the bigger ones can climb wet glass in a pinch. I've found that most of mine do seem to like at least a shallow water feature, but this is not essential for any of them, as long as the humidity is up and you mist them.


on another note lol do you think its worth me getting a thermo/hygro as you have chondro to keep an eye on humidity as this is my first tank, the glass always has conensation so i wasnt sure wether that is a good enough sign


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

As long as the frogs are happy, and you are providing them with a secure, healthy environment then, I think water feature or not, thats the main thing.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

onemanandhisgecko said:


> i couldnt imagine that the frogs would have such a murderous intent they would stand by and wait for another frog to drown, or even contemplate or recognise water as a method of getting rid of their competition. that is why they stand on each other to show dominance then the other will simply go off to a different area/territory.
> 
> 
> 
> on another note lol do you think its worth me getting a thermo/hygro as you have chondro to keep an eye on humidity as this is my first tank, the glass always has conensation so i wasnt sure wether that is a good enough sign



As i said hun - each to their own. Along with people who have had no problems at all, ive heard first-hand accounts of frogs drowning in as little as a brom vase. Its not a risk im prepared to take, but i dont see anything wrong with keepers who want to keep their frogs with deep water - its up to you and your opinion - but i wont do it  end of. 

I think the most important thing to remember is just to be sensible - i.e. dont keep multiple females together (for stress reasons more than anything else! regardless of water features..) and if you do have water - ensure there are places where frogs can get out easily if they choose. 

If your glass always has condensation thats a good indication that its always above 60% humidity, but the thermo/hygro i have was only about £4 from eBay and its so nice to see what happens over a 24 hour period - just for that 'peace of mind' really! After a day or two, if the readings are the same, ill just take the device out and i know the viv can always achieve this humidity without spraying so its a nice feeling to know i can go away for a day or two without worrying about spraying them :lol2:


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## onemanandhisfrog (Jul 20, 2009)

£4 new? or auction could you post a link ill get one : victory: and i hope i didnt annoy you or piss you off chondro that wasnt my intention like you say as long as there is places to get out and its all done with risks taken into account then its down to each persons opinions and thoughts. thanks


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

My Exo has condensation on the glass 24/7....:blush:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

onemanandhisgecko said:


> £4 new? or auction could you post a link ill get one : victory: and i hope i didnt annoy you or piss you off chondro that wasnt my intention like you say as long as there is places to get out and its all done with risks taken into account then its down to each persons opinions and thoughts. thanks


:lol2: course you didnt - this is always a 'but he says but she says' topic and nobody is really right or wrong - its just down to preferences : victory:

And now youve got me - they were on eBay for £4 each about a year ago, i bought three (they are all over the flat being used to test new vivs or just for general interest of air temp - usually to anger me in summer when its reading 80F.... lol...) ill have a rummage online to see if they still have something similar for sale :2thumb:




detail3r said:


> My Exo has condensation on the glass 24/7....:blush:


:no1:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> ahaaa good idea, i almost thought about making a viv out of that plastic that you use for conservatory roofs but decided glass wasnt that much more expensive.... may have to do that another time tho  hehe....


There's probably loads of stuff you could use!

Acrylic is super light though...win.

I probably missed it, but what mm glass did you use?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Digital Thermo Hygrometer Reptile Lizard SUPERB 2 LED on eBay (end time 28-Sep-10 10:53:51 BST)


thats the kind of thing i use :2thumb:




Morgan Freeman said:


> There's probably loads of stuff you could use!
> 
> Acrylic is super light though...win.
> 
> I probably missed it, but what mm glass did you use?


I used 4mm glass here - but i wish i got them to polish the edges!! (i had the glass doors polished, but everything else wasnt - ouch!)




Also - my flatmates baby whites tree frog just croaked! AWWWWWWW!!! Never heard this one croak before :flrt: the others are older and croak all the time but - squeek that was adorable :lol2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Nah polished edges bump up the price too much.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Nah polished edges bump up the price too much.


Lol, true but it would have stopped me donating quite so much actual blood to this project.... 

But the trim ive used to cover the edges is actually really pretty... so i dont mind too much now


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> Lol, true but it would have stopped me donating quite so much actual blood to this project....
> 
> But the trim ive used to cover the edges is actually really pretty... so i dont mind too much now


Blood means you worked hard :devil:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks so much for such an informative read,save the wonga by polishing the edges with an oilstone(the type one uses for sharpening chisels/knives etc etc)wear big leather,gloves:whip:Save you blood for later:lol2: you'll need it:blush:


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## owlbassboy (Jun 26, 2008)

thats an absolutely beautiful setup, im getting seriously tempted by little froglets


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

owlbassboy said:


> thats an absolutely beautiful setup, im getting seriously tempted by little froglets


Cheers hun, i has froggies in here now 

Updated pics can be found here:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...tinctorius-oyapock-pic-heavy.html#post7069093

: victory:


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## dragon25 (Nov 10, 2010)

how did you use the silcone to stick the eco earth on the foam, 
Adam


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

dragon25 said:


> how did you use the silcone to stick the eco earth on the foam,
> Adam


er.. you put gloves on, squirt some silicone into your hand, slap it on the foam, throw eco earth on it, let it dry.

:lol2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I use my bare hands, cos I like peeling it off once it dries.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I use my bare hands, cos I like peeling it off once it dries.


eeeew! its HORRID and you end up with manky hands for a week while your skin sloughs off lol!! 

I learnt my lesson with expanding foam... if you get that on your hands its there for a VERY long time... its horrible


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> eeeew! its HORRID and you end up with manky hands for a week while your skin sloughs off lol!!
> 
> I learnt my lesson with expanding foam... if you get that on your hands its there for a VERY long time... its horrible


gorilla glue is even worse:devil:


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## Wilko (Mar 3, 2010)

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I'm intrigued as to how the viv and inhabitants are doing two years on? :whistling2: I'm tempted to copy your viv build but I'm intrigued to find out how the false floor has fared. And have you had any problems with the water level getting too high from spraying it?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Wilko said:


> Sorry to resurrect this thread but I'm intrigued as to how the viv and inhabitants are doing two years on? :whistling2: I'm tempted to copy your viv build but I'm intrigued to find out how the false floor has fared. And have you had any problems with the water level getting too high from spraying it?


Good lord has it really been two years!? :gasp:

Viv and froggies are doing very well indeed, the false floor is still fine, and i have no issues with the water level (it evaporates so needs topping up every month or so) but overall its very easy to look after and involves minimal fuss. 

I'll post some pics soon, i've added lots of devils ivy as it is indestructible and looks fab. 

Moving house... was not fun.... 

Aside from that - no negatives to report! :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

No joke Chondro! Moving house with frogs and vivs is a NIGHTMARE! Did it ourselves in April and you know how big a collection we ended up with. I will cry if I ever have to do it again.

Anyway, nice to see you posting on here again, I remember chatting to you about RFUK at the last ever UK Frog Day, or more accurately, terrifying you when this massive bloke with blue hair spoke to you.... lol

Ade


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