# a month with dks and still alive. .



## kateandnik (Mar 10, 2014)

Hey all posted a month ago about my giant white knee having dks (crazy leg death)
Didn't move her to icu as when I did this with Brazilian black she died straight away. 
Have been keeping her hydrated and placing pre kill into enclosure and although she still looks like she's dancing to me hammer she's still alive... 

Does anyone at all know of a surviver from dks? Do they need t moult to go back to normal or ???? What do you guys think? 

Oh and havnt seen her on the pre kill because have put a towel over her enclosure and am really leaving her alone only checking on her to fill water..


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## Chunky73 (Mar 9, 2014)

Sorry for being thick but I'm new to this, what's dks?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

How did you determine this to be Dyskinetic Syndrome?


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## kateandnik (Mar 10, 2014)

Everyone on here and youtube told me it was if you look at how she walks it's is defo dks there is always has 1 leg up in the air and the other 7 dance around all crazy like.. I have uploaded a clip on youtube and it is identical to other dks cases 


Chunky it's something some tarantulas get and their legs go all crazy and it's like they cannot walk properly youtube it ♡


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

kateandnik said:


> Everyone on here and youtube told me it was if you look at how she walks it's is defo dks there is always has 1 leg up in the air and the other 7 dance around all crazy like.. I have uploaded a clip on youtube and it is identical to other dks cases
> 
> 
> Chunky it's something some tarantulas get and their legs go all crazy and it's like they cannot walk properly youtube it ♡




Although I wish to cause no offence on here, I'm not sure whether you can just determine something like that because a few forum members tell you it "is". It's a phrase that gets batted about like nobodies business, the same as "put it in ICU". It seems to be what people grab at, when they really don't know or understand the issue at all


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## Chunky73 (Mar 9, 2014)

How do they get it?
I'm now worried about mine getting it, I've only had s/he a couple of months but would hate anything to happen to her/him


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## kateandnik (Mar 10, 2014)

No idea chunky wish I knew as this is second T of mine to have it first was Brazilian black female she died after a week didn't last long at all  

What Elsie could it be then forever?
Legs constantly moving in the air.. gone very skittish used to walk out tank to us now even 'tries' to run from locust. .
Even falls over! :/ I will get link to my video


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## kateandnik (Mar 10, 2014)

Hope this works can't find link anywhere had to send it myself via whatsapp. .Watch "Brazilian white knee juvi with dks " on YouTube - Brazilian white knee juvi with dks : Brazilian white knee juvi with dks  - YouTube


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## Chunky73 (Mar 9, 2014)

I've got the white knee is defo hope it doesn't get it


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

As Forever says, the reason people give out the term DKS is because so many other people repeat the same thing, mostly without an understanding of what it is, intact your video does exactly that.
Some have argued that it doesn't exist. Certainly there's an argument that much of what we see as DKS is quite simply bad husbandry. 
IMO, and I'm sure others will provide theirs, DKS is caused by influences to the nervous system, either by chemicals such as sprays or fumes and most definitely by flea treatments. If you have cats and dogs in the house and you used flea treatments you should make sure you do not transfer these to your feeders or indirectly to any inverts. Stroking your cat and then feeding your tarantula after treatment (within a few days) is obvious, and unfortunately common.
The most scientific cause for DKS is low quality feeders. All inverts require a range of nutrients and proteins, even cholesterol, so feeding crickets etc that haven't had a good diet can directly affect your inverts.
The most common of all issues with tarantula are a lack of water. There will be many that get away with keeping their tarantula dry and never have issues, but its a bit like crossing the road, you might do it every day but the day you don't look and get hit is the day you realise why the warnings were there. 
There's much healthy debate within the forum on this issue, so if you wish to know more have a little search.


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## aide BURR (Jul 1, 2010)

*Dks*

Dks is something to do with the nervous system, i think that when a t moults and the humidity is low this causes the damage ,i have only had this happen once to x.imanis, was on hols got back she had moulted humidity was low hence a breakdancing spider at first she seemed fine but after a few week dks kicked in. This was years ago i have not had it since so i put this down to not managing the environment well,and with people keeping a.genics on the dry side my guess is that you didn't increase the humidity in the tank at pre moult stage which i do with all my ts hope this helps


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

put it in a plastic bag and pop it in freezer for a few hours (imo best way to kill em)

if any other pet was on the floor going spastic for a month you'd have it put down. 

there's obviously something wrong with 'muscular' / nervous system.

poor spider probly wishing it was living in Switzerland right now.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

lee middleton said:


> put it in a plastic bag and pop it in freezer for a few hours (imo best way to kill em)
> 
> if any other pet was on the floor going spastic for a month you'd have it put down.


There are some invertebrates that shoot their digestive system out of their anal opening as a self defence mechanism. Are we to assume that is agonising that because if your dog did it it would be? 

Tarantulas are not any other pet. You can't draw parallels between dog/cat/bird etc behaviour and tarantulas when tarantulas might not even have a concept of self.

And of course, you simply assume freezing is humane for tarantulas. There's no direct evidence either way, it is simply inferred from other invertebrates that tend to enter a state of torpor when cooled, that has been assumed to be less stressful.


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

GRB said:


> There are some invertebrates that shoot their digestive system out of their anal opening as a self defence mechanism. Are we to assume that is agonising that because if your dog did it it would be?
> 
> Tarantulas are not any other pet. You can't draw parallels between dog/cat/bird etc behaviour and tarantulas when tarantulas might not even have a concept of self.
> 
> .


does this invert consistently shoot its digestive system out of its arse for over a month straight ? I assume not. if it did do this for a month all day every day Id hazard a guess its a little under the weather.

point is the spider is showing no signs of getting back to normal. as we know they can survive for long periods without food etc, whats next post gona be? that spider I had with possible 'dks' eventually dies after 8months of constant break dancing.

id would of killed it after 2 weeks of noticing this. but I never had a spider do this so I am only assuming what id do....

my first message wasn't that clear, I wasn't comparing the physical issue of the spider with a dog, more along the lines of if theres as issue with any pet that doesn't seem right that you will never understand is it fair to keep the thing alive? yes you could say is it fair to kill it? Id feel happier knowing its at peace dead in the bin than wondering how its feeling doing back flips in a plastic box....


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

lee middleton said:


> point is the spider is showing no signs of getting back to normal.


It's pretty clear to me that DKS is actually several issues with multiple causes that manifest in a similar set of symptoms. Euthanasia is not treatment of a disease. 




> id would of killed it after 2 weeks of noticing this. but I never had a spider do this so I am only assuming what id do....


I prefer to let nature take its course. If you kill it there's absolutely no way for the animal to recover. Some have, given enough time. 

I've seen people euthanise spiders that were dehydrated - diagnosed as DKS by inexperienced keepers, because "they were suffering" (were they?) and because the person who diagnosed the issue didn't have much knowledge of spiders or their various illnesses. Most folk have barely seen a tarantula die naturally, yet are experts in determining what is unusual or constitutes "DKS". 

Compassion is one thing, reckless murdering of things is another. If it was a dog it would be clear it was suffering - but a spider? Who knows. There's plenty of behaviour they get up to that you can argue for either side.


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## lee middleton (Nov 25, 2011)

GRB said:


> It's pretty clear to me that DKS is actually several issues with multiple causes that manifest in a similar set of symptoms. Euthanasia is not treatment of a disease.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


fair point, although you cant murder an animal (unless human), agree to disagree I suppose. down to individual owner to decide how to deal with it. if it happened to one of my spiders I would rule out all other ailments I know of before ending the spider. hard decision to make I guess and hope I don't have to. 

shame more is not known yet and until it is, i still think it should be dispatched of (assuming its not a simple problem overlooked that is)


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

lee middleton said:


> put it in a plastic bag and pop it in freezer for a few hours (imo best way to kill em)
> 
> if any other pet was on the floor going spastic for a month you'd have it put down.
> 
> ...



Please don't euthenaise this spider. 

I don't feel like, at this stage, there's any reason to take such a measure. 

Personally, I'd keep it at a consistent temperature & humidity as you would with a healthy spider, keep offering prekilled food & keep her in as stress-free environment as possible (preferably out of the way so she's nice & quiet). 

I've seen people diagnose spiders with DKS, only for them to moult & be completely fine again. I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert, but if the spider was in my care, this is what I'd do. 

I absolutely don't agree with freezing tarantulas as a 'humane' method of euthenasia - they're cold blooded, & designed to thrive in warmer climates (okay, so this isn't universal across the board for all species, just talking broadly here) - so I really can't see how subjecting a tarantula to temperatures extreme enough to cause death is humane. Just because they probably won't move much when cooled down, doesn't mean that they're not stressed out - they know what temperature they need to be instincively - the fact that they go out of their way to thermoregulate kind of says to me that if they're put into a freezer, they're probably going to spend their last few minutes stressed & potentially in search of somewhere warm (until the point comes where they're too cold to have the energy to move, & probably just sit there & wait for their body to shut down).

Just my thoughts, not a dig at you in any way dude!


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## DodgemGreaser (Nov 7, 2013)

Why do people always assume spiders that indicate these symptoms always die?

Its not the case people have kept species with such symptoms which have molted out and been fine so I think euthanasia is a bit extreme.

Also you say in the video description this is your second Tarantula to have gone this way so 

Was the Tarantula bought from the same supplier?
Were both Tarantulas fed from the same food source?
What food are you feeding?

I have been keeping Tarantulas a long time now and have never had one display this behaviour so I find it incredible you have had two


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

kateandnik said:


> Hey all posted a month ago about my giant white knee having dks (crazy leg death)
> Didn't move her to icu as when I did this with Brazilian black she died straight away.
> Have been keeping her hydrated and placing pre kill into enclosure and although she still looks like she's dancing to me hammer she's still alive...
> 
> ...


when you posted about this in your last thread, I advised you to stop using locusts, as batches contaminated with a gut infection are one of the causes of the symptoms you describe, but here you mention still using them. Btw, I agree with what others have said- DKS is a series of symptoms of something wrong with the t's nervous system, not a disease per se.
Edit: sorry, replied to wrong quote.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

wilkinss77 said:


> when you posted about this in your last thread, I advised you to stop using locusts, as batches contaminated with a gut infection are one of the causes of the symptoms you describe, but here you mention still using them. Btw, I agree with what others have said- DKS is a series of symptoms of something wrong with the t's nervous system, not a disease per se.
> Edit: sorry, replied to wrong quote.


meant to reply to this one:



kateandnik said:


> No idea chunky wish I knew as this is second T of mine to have it first was Brazilian black female she died after a week didn't last long at all
> 
> What Elsie could it be then forever?
> Legs constantly moving in the air.. gone very skittish used to walk out tank to us now even 'tries' to run from locust. .
> Even falls over! :/ I will get link to my video


granted, locusts may not be the cause- but given that they are sometimes known to cause DKS symptoms if infected as i described, i'd stop using them to be on the safe side.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

wilkinss77 said:


> I advised you to stop using locusts, as batches contaminated with a gut infection are one of the causes of the symptoms you describe, but here you mention still using them.



A possible cause. Maybe. No evidence either way for it. 

Every "cause" that people band about amounts to someone on a forum saying "Hey, maybe _this_ could cause it?". There's no proof of this at all, it is just a guess based on a possible mechanism. It could equally be dodgy tap water additives, this varies around the country and temporally, also has a mechanism attached to it. Or vitamin B deficiency, aerosols, etc etc etc. 

The obvious evidence against locusts is that people who have never used locusts can still get "DKS" like symptoms in their collection. You either discount locusts as a cause or accept that there might be multiple causes for the same set of symptoms, or you accept there are multiple issues described as the same syndrome in error. 

Personally I think it's usually bad husbandry and not being careful about introduced pesticides from various sources. Frontline is obvious, but it could equally be things like air fresheners, polish, smoking, etc. The fact that it tends to crop up in the same collection multiple times is to me a strong indicator that it's an environment related issue specific to those collections. Or a virus / infection. 

There's too little evidence for you to speak with such confidence about causes. People seem to have latched onto the locust thing but just because it's been thought through a little more than the others doesn't mean it's correct. There are plenty of great theories that are wrong.


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## matty (Feb 17, 2007)

GRB said:


> A possible cause. Maybe. No evidence either way for it.
> 
> Every "cause" that people band about amounts to someone on a forum saying "Hey, maybe _this_ could cause it?". There's no proof of this at all, it is just a guess based on a possible mechanism. It could equally be dodgy tap water additives, this varies around the country and temporally, also has a mechanism attached to it. Or vitamin B deficiency, aerosols, etc etc etc.
> 
> ...



The like button just isn't enough to show how much I agree with this. 

So many people blame DKS on various things - which there is absolutely no scientific evidence for or against. Batting around the whole 'don't feed locusts, they give your spiders DKS' is all well & good if you can back it up.. But nobody can, it's always just 'something they've heard'. 

I'v never had any of my spiders show any signs of DKS, ever. & I've kept a lot. I've fed locusts a lot, I've fed crickets a lot, I've fed roaches a lot. So I'm swayng towards husbandry as well for the cause of DKS - whether that's the current environment, or an environment it's been subjected to in the past. 

One things for sure, I'd definitely be thinking very carefully about what chemicals I could potentially be subjecting my spiders to if I were to have two show signs of DKS. Over the years I've kept hundreds of spiders, & never seen DKS once - the fact that the OP has two showing symptoms in a short space of time is quite worrying.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Ive given references to support scientific opinion on numerous occasions - unfortunately if you don't want to accept it that's your choice. If you care to read then use the search feature in the forum for my posts on the matter.
For those that do not accept the scientific reasoning its rather ironic that they continue to ask for it. And that they continue to discredit the hobbyists experiences. In my opinion, and I've said this numerous times, some people just won't accept key factors that others are using to avert DKS.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> Ive given references to support scientific opinion on numerous occasions


How can you link to "scientific sources" when nothing has been published on DKS? Which journal? 




> - unfortunately if you don't want to accept it that's your choice. If you care to read then use the search feature in the forum for my posts on the matter.


I did not realise you had collected data on this issue and then analysed it. What publication is this in? 

How did you reconcile the large noise to signal ratio when there are so few cases of DKS to generate statistical power from?

What were your explanatory variables? How did you analyse the data to get beyond just correlation? 



> For those that do not accept the scientific reasoning its rather ironic that they continue to ask for it. And that they continue to discredit the hobbyists experiences.


1. The Loch Ness Monster is believed by many to exist on the basis of eye-witness accounts. Is eye-witness account 100% reliable for this then?

2. There have been people who confess to crimes when they could not possibly have committed them. Is eye-witness account from the confessor 100% reliable in this instance?

3. Plenty of people are convinced they've found Steatoda grossa in parts of Scotland, but experts would suggest it is unlikely, and all specimens identified so far have been mis-identified. Am I to assume you suggest the reports that were not confirmed by arachnologists are 100% correct and it's just coincidence that all the ones examined by scientists were not that species?

There is a big difference in believing eye-witness accounts, and believing them enough to use them as actual evidence. Especially when it is a specialist topic and it is being reported by non-specialists. 



> In my opinion, and I've said this numerous times, some people just won't accept key factors that others are using to avert DKS.


Averting DKS? Please explain how this was quantified.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Points 1, 2 and 3, are these for real? 
"Am I to assume you suggest"

For someone intent on fact it seems rather strange that you lean with these comments.

There are no scientific reports that suggest one venom is stronger than another, from what Ive read there are very detailed reports on specific venom, without comparison. But the hobbyist is quite aware that the venom of NW tarantula is quite different to that of OW.

I've not experienced 1 case of DKS since I've stopped using locusts. I've previously mentioned the cause for concern here, not just from my own experience but the findings via the Morroco Locust Meeting 2008.

There are however, scientific reports on DKS, notably on rats and other mammals.

I never once suggested that I carried out scientific tests or analysis. That, just like your assumption, is part of your own imagination.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> Points 1, 2 and 3, are these for real?
> "Am I to assume you suggest"
> 
> For someone intent on fact it seems rather strange that you lean with these comments.
> ...


ronald baxter once told me he was convinced that a bad batch of locusts killed his breeding female theraphosa blondi. he said she showed very few DKS symptoms, but became very sluggish (was active before eating the locusts), & died a week later, not in a death curl, but_ with all 8 legs at full stretch._ the few t's i've lost from DKS/DKS-like symptoms, have all died without a death curl- i thought the first one, an aphonopelma seemani dark colour form, was still alive until she didn't move when i opened the lid & threw a cricket in- & then didn't move when i nudged her with a toothbrush handle.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> Points 1, 2 and 3, are these for real?
> "Am I to assume you suggest"


My point was that you were saying "people discredit hobbyist experience" as it was totally unreasonable. 

There is a point in being sceptical when the information is basically "a dude on a forum says this" and it is presented as 100% scientific fact.

Nothing on DKS in tarantulas is established fact. It is anecdotes. The last time we had this discussion I suggested someone start actually coming up with some questions and some potential data to collect. 

What a surprise, that was too much work and it seems people prefer to just repeat mis-information thinking that if they say it enough times it will become true. 

Like I said before, people can't even give a figure for the total number of cases of DKS. Nobody knows where in the UK the highest number of cases has occurred, or what species, if any, it preferentially targets. 



> For someone intent on fact it seems rather strange that you lean with these comments.


Please explain what is not factual about about my dismissal of eye-witness accounts as being 100% reliable. 

I'm sorry my use of examples to illustrate a point was apparently too complex. 



> There are no scientific reports that suggest one venom is stronger than another, from what Ive read there are very detailed reports on specific venom, without comparison. But the hobbyist is quite aware that the venom of NW tarantula is quite different to that of OW.


Depends how you consider the LD50 scores for venoms. Technically they are a scoring of potency to some extent. There is also a fairly decent literature on venom, the effects and treatment. The componants of venom in some cases are reasonably well studied. The mechanism of effect is known for some. 

Contrast to DKS where.....the mechanism is unknown, the exact symptoms remain undefined, who, where and when it occurs is undocumented, etc. 



> I've not experienced 1 case of DKS since I've stopped using locusts.


How do you not see the that this is not evidence?! 

I am by no means a statistician but I do use fairly reasonable statistics on a frequent basis. You just can't have a sample size of one and then say it correlates with something (and then assume correlation = causation!). You have no control to compare against. 

What if someone has a case of DKS, decides it was tapwater that caused it and then stops using tapwater, instead they start using distilled water. By your logic, no further cases of DKS would mean that tapwater causes DKS. 

This same logic would apply to any other "cause of DKS". 

God, this is basic stuff. Even if you take the other, say, 30 cases of DKS reported on forums, you cannot possibly state with confidence that locusts are the sole cause. Like I asked - what were your explanatory variables?

Please just accept that your signal to noise ratio in this case, with so few data points, is unlikely to produce anything at all that might not occur by chance. As an ecologist I am intimately familiar with this exact problem. 

No different to medical datasets - some of them struggle to find causal agents with datasets with 100,000's of observations and subjects. Yet you apparently have 100% confidence in a dataset of 1 personal observation of no effect and maybe 2 dozen reports on forums. With no analysis. You haven't even just plotted the data to just see what it looks like. Yet you assert you have quoted scientific reasoning on numerous occasions. 

Even at the most basic level, your argument falls apart as soon as consider that many more people use locusts without having DKS than there have even been cases of DKS reported. If locusts were such a direct cause, there would have been many more cases of DKS reported than there have been. 

I've not had a case of DKS ever. I used to feed using locusts routinely. Does my sole observation nullify yours? 



> I've previously mentioned the cause for concern here, not just from my own experience but the findings via the Morroco Locust Meeting 2008.


Concern is one thing - when people post "locusts cause DKS" this is another. 



> There are however, scientific reports on DKS, notably on rats and other mammals.


How do you know that "DKS" in tarantulas is the same as experienced by vertebrates? 

Considering that DKS was just a term someone threw out there because it seemed similar to the symptoms in vertebrates. I don't think they ever assumed they were the same syndrome or were caused by the same agent(s). 



> I never once suggested that I carried out scientific tests or analysis. That, just like your assumption, is part of your own imagination.


Why is it, when an actual scientist calls you out, and you've got nothing, rather than just say "maybe I was a little overconfident in my assumptions", you try to make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about? 

If you want to criticise my opinion then do so, but don't try to jazz it up under some façade of being scientific in any way. You have no evidence, there are no papers on it. It's all anecdotes. Every time we have this discussion I perforate your "science" in about 5 minutes yet the very next post regading DKS you are sure to post the exact same 100% assertion - and of course, criticise those who are skeptical about it at the same time. 

The onus is on you to convince people, and the evidence you have presented so far is flimsy and conceptually weak - as I've pointed out. A scientist would consider the points and address them, not just pretend they don't exist when the topic came up again. 

And again, I am discussing the same basic points about assumptions, correlation, causation, etc that you just refuse to consider. Maybe if you presented to data to back up your assumptions. And what of the notion that DKS seems to spring up in the same collections routinely but spaced in time? If it was simply a "bad batch" of locusts, then the effect would be extremely unlikely to hit the same keepers multiple times from different batches. 

DKS might well be caused, for some cases, by locusts. It might also be more than one syndrome. Given the total lack of knowledge, it is not advisable to say anything causes DKS 100% because no-one knows what causes DKS.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

_"it is presented as 100% scientific fact."
_Where did I say that? I've never said that at all, quite why you jump to such conclusions is beyond me, especially when you accuse me of the same!

_"What a surprise, that was too much work"
_Really? you're surprised that the hobbyist doesn't try to conduct scientific tests? I'm more surprised that the likes of yourself doesn't undertake such tests.

_"mis-information"
_Can you prove that my opinion is misinformation. Of course you can’t!

_"I'm sorry my use of examples to illustrate a point was apparently too complex."
_Classic condescending GRB comments, its not good to see it so alive an well.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> _"it is presented as 100% scientific fact."
> _Where did I say that? I've never said that at all, quite why you jump to such conclusions is beyond me, especially when you accuse me of the same!





> *For those that do not accept the scientific reasoning *its rather ironic that they continue to ask for it. And that they continue to discredit the hobbyists experiences. In my opinion, and I've said this numerous times, *some people just won't accept key factors* *that others are using to avert DKS.*


Seems clear enough to me, especially the bold part. Just because you didn't specifically state it doesn't mean it's not what is implied, and what you think. 

Having re-read the original quote, I didn't say you said that, my exact words were: "There is a point in being sceptical when the information is basically "a dude on a forum says this" and it is presented as 100% scientific fact."



> _"What a surprise, that was too much work"
> _Really? you're surprised that the hobbyist doesn't try to conduct scientific tests? I'm more surprised that the likes of yourself doesn't undertake such tests.


Are you paying for it like? Its hard enough to get funding to tackle global problems. 

The hobbyist group could easily gather preliminary data that might make it possible to get funding for a larger project later. 

Why would I study this? I've never had DKS in my collection. Selfish I know, but I have other things to deal with and seeing how as some are dead set to prove it is locusts you'd thin they'd jump to gather some reliable data to support that. 



> _"mis-information"
> _Can you prove that my opinion is misinformation. Of course you can’t!


Eh? 

Just about every thread on the topic you and a select few others blunder in and state it is caused by locusts. I always counter that there is no way you can be 100% sure of this. Now I have to prove that you saying it is 100% prevented by not feeding locusts is misinformation? 



> _"I'm sorry my use of examples to illustrate a point was apparently too complex."
> _Classic condescending GRB comments, its not good to see it so alive an well.


To be quite honest I am just pleased at the sheer level of sarcasm I managed to force into such a short sentence.


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