# My little rant of the day.



## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

How many of you have been confronted by this in your local reptile shop? 











I posted this on Facebook yesterday and completely agree with the view of well at least it is clearly stated that it's a hybrid. The fact that it's being sold at all I find abhorrent.
I asked the manager where he got it from, he gave me the name of a local man, who is apparently known in the hobby and is on this forum. He also told me said man is trying to palm a lot of other hybrid slings off to the pet shops around here. 
I've been buying my livefood from here for a long time, they are a specialist reptile shop, chatted to the manager lots and he's fairly clued up - he even said he didn't agree with it and thought it was wrong to sell, yet still is. 

The other pet shop I visited I've been going to since it opened 6 months ago *REMOVED*. Their aim is to educate people on all sorts of animals as pets, specifically reptiles. I thought they staff and management were great until I visited yesterday. 
8 out of 10 of their inverts were dead, obvious to me they hadn't been moved, changed, looked at, watered since my last visit a few weeks ago. Spiders were still "for sale" and priced up, even though they were dried up and dead. 
They had 4x 6ft heat mats, lights and heaters on. Absolutely boiling hot and they had been fried. Approached the owner about it, his argument was that anyone will tell me this is how you keep inverts, they need direct heat and need to be placed directly on the heatmats - "ask anyone" (this was when my other half took out hid phone and began scrolling through to call someone :lol2. He'd been in this hobby for years and he knew more than I did. I told him I wasn't having a go at him directly, but they _are_ all dead, and it is obviously too hot in this room. He told me to **** off and I left the store. 

Appalled at the attitude and will be screaming from the rooftops to anyone that will listen about avoiding this shop.


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## Embo (Jun 7, 2012)

Never seen any hybrids for sale in my local rep-shop. The guys that run the invert section are pretty passionate about their spiders so I doubt that they will ever get any in unless management forces their hand. 

I don't get the appeal tbh... I can understand the curiosity of fiddling with genetics to see what you get, but as they say, if it aint broke, don't fix it... 

But the way The Pet Project spoke to you is horrendous. I hope you gave them what for before you left!


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## Dee_Williams (Aug 15, 2010)

My local pet shop buys from reputable breeders, they do try to give the correct advice (not always successfully, but they do try) and they don't try to force people to buy a load of stuff they don't need either. 
I've never seen them selling hybrid anything (other than the awful designer crossbreed dogs) and they have quite an array of inverts and reptiles.


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

It's not an ideal situation but it's happened and it'll always happen. At least the shop and seller had the decency to point out what they were. Instead it would of been far easier and would of stopped people like yourself getting worked up over it, if they just sold them as curly hairs and probably got away with it, minus the moaning.

I don't agree with cross breeding, I like my spiders pure. But it does happen in all aspects of the animal world. Cats, Dogs, Fish and even big cats are all animals that have been cross bred. Yet do you look at cats and moan because it's not a full pure breed? No. Or dislike a dog because it's german sheppard cross great dane? No, no one does. 

Hybrids are in the hobby all over the place, some more than likely occur in the wild. But instead of painting a bad picture of someone for doing it, be thankful he declared he did it. After all you could of been given/bought some of these slings as curly hairs and known no different. They should just be treated as pet spiders, not something to be bred from.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Spiderstock said:


> It's not an ideal situation but it's happened and it'll always happen. At least the shop and seller had the decency to point out what they were. Instead it would of been far easier and would of stopped people like yourself getting worked up over it, if they just sold them as curly hairs and probably got away with it, minus the moaning.
> 
> I don't agree with cross breeding, I like my spiders pure. But it does happen in all aspects of the animal world. Cats, Dogs, Fish and even big cats are all animals that have been cross bred. Yet do you look at cats and moan because it's not a full pure breed? No. Or dislike a dog because it's german sheppard cross great dane? No, no one does.
> 
> Hybrids are in the hobby all over the place, some more than likely occur in the wild. But instead of painting a bad picture of someone for doing it, be thankful he declared he did it. After all you could of been given/bought some of these slings as curly hairs and known no different. They should just be treated as pet spiders, not something to be bred from.


Well I know the people in Plymouth. I know the kind of people who will go in there and buy said spiders (yes I'm being very generalistic, but truthful). It will be a bloody idiot, who will have basic knowledge, and will think it's "cool" to own.
I think it's also fair to say, when this breeder _can't_ palm them off, he _will_ be selling them as a normal curly hair. Don't forget, this is a well known breeder in the hobby. 

And, to be fair, I can't stand cross breeds dogs.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

forever_20one said:


> Well I know the people in Plymouth. I know the kind of people who will go in there and buy said spiders (yes I'm being very generalistic, but truthful). It will be a bloody idiot, who will have basic knowledge, and will think it's "cool" to own.
> I think it's also fair to say, when this breeder _can't_ palm them off, he _will_ be selling them as a normal curly hair. Don't forget, this is a well known breeder in the hobby.
> 
> And, to be fair,* I can't stand cross breeds dogs.*


No I can't but there is a lot on here if you know what I mean


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## fatbloke (Apr 6, 2008)

That sucks if a shop owner told me I should vacate I think I would ha e had to stop my self from flooring them I'd be doing my best to get the crap shop closed down


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## Lordaradon (Oct 11, 2011)

Having crawled the country several times in search of good shops and hidden gems, I can say I've never come across either that level of rudeness or any "hybrids"

The way he spoke to you is utterly abhorrent, and there would have been drama had I been in ear shot, never mind if I had been spoken to in that manner directly.

Secondly I too don't get the "hybrid" craze. Surely there is enough natural variation to please everyone already??


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Iv seen hybrid G.pulchra cross G.formosa at the BTS show. That was a bit disappointing in my eyes


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

selina20 said:


> Iv seen hybrid G.pulchra cross G.formosa at the BTS show. That was a bit disappointing in my eyes



You did? I'm glad I didn't, I'd have been very saddened to see that. I do not for the life of my understand _Why_ in the first place it happens, and then to sell at a large, respected expo? It angers me


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

forever_20one said:


> You did? I'm glad I didn't, I'd have been very saddened to see that. I do not for the life of my understand _Why_ in the first place it happens, and then to sell at a large, respected expo? It angers me


Yup was a German trader and his table was full of AF Grammostola hybrids. Was pretty sad to see. Was surprised the BTS allowed it tbh


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

forever_20one said:


> Well I know the people in Plymouth. I know the kind of people who will go in there and buy said spiders (yes I'm being very generalistic, but truthful). It will be a bloody idiot, who will have basic knowledge, and will think it's "cool" to own.
> I think it's also fair to say, when this breeder _can't_ palm them off, he _will_ be selling them as a normal curly hair. Don't forget, this is a well known breeder in the hobby.
> 
> And, to be fair, I can't stand cross breeds dogs.


You get idiots everywhere. Why would an idiot think it's "cool" to own a hybrid rather than a normal T?

And I know who bred these hybrids and have known the said guy for many years. And I also know that he will never try to palm them off for something they aren't. The fact is you're on a public forum slating a guy you don't know. I'm not sure of his reasons for doing this, but I do know that he's a good honest bloke that has never ripped myself or anyone else off. He's always been upfront about what he has. He will never tell people they are pure breeds just to sell them. And you saying he will is just something you're adding to make him seem like a bad person. 

Don't judge someone unless you fully know them.


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## dmreptilebreeder (May 2, 2009)

This spider is in the care of Two by Two Reptile & Aquatic. Plymouth and we got it in with some other spiders that were sold to us. Not that I would go out and buy a bunch of these but sure it's better being sold as it is and not just neglected or killed. 
Someone will get many years happyness out of it , I wouldn't sell it to someone looking to breed from it.

Dean


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

dmreptilebreeder said:


> but sure it's better being sold as it is and not just neglected or killed.
> Someone will get many years happyness out of it , I wouldn't sell it to someone looking to breed from it.
> 
> Dean


I could argue that it would be better to kill it rather than it finish up in the ether to possibly be bred with something else ,then we all finish up with a load of valueless(in a scientific sense) mongrels

Your comment that you would never sell it to someone who intends to breed means nothing as you will have no control over the spider once it leaves your guardianship.

I`m sure the breeder is a lovely fella but letting these loose to the general public is irresponsible in the extreme.

Its akin to the Malawi side of the fish hobby in the 80's we are all going to finish up with a load of unidentifiable crap if this is allowed to go on.

Hybridising Tarantulas is irresponsible verging on the criminal .If the breeder of these really cares about the hobby he wouldn't have bred them in the first place.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Spiderstock said:


> You get idiots everywhere. Why would an idiot think it's "cool" to own a hybrid rather than a normal T?
> 
> And I know who bred these hybrids and have known the said guy for many years. And I also know that he will never try to palm them off for something they aren't. The fact is you're on a public forum slating a guy you don't know. I'm not sure of his reasons for doing this, but I do know that he's a good honest bloke that has never ripped myself or anyone else off. He's always been upfront about what he has. He will never tell people they are pure breeds just to sell them. And you saying he will is just something you're adding to make him seem like a bad person.
> 
> Don't judge someone unless you fully know them.


Because I've lived in Plymouth for 25 years, and I know the type of people that live here and their views on reptile keeping. 

I may not know the breeder personally, but I can have an opinion. End of. I think anyone that _purposely_ interbreeds (or anyone that has not enough knowledge to know whether they're purposely interbreeding for that matter) is foolish. Whether he clearly states they are hybrids or not, I couldn't care less, it shouldn't be done in the first place - and in my humble opinion, should not be sold on to the public, and certainly not through a specialist medium.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

forever_20one said:


> Because I've lived in Plymouth for 25 years, and I know the type of people that live here and their views on reptile keeping.
> 
> I may not know the breeder personally, but I can have an opinion. End of. I think anyone that _purposely_ interbreeds (or anyone that has not enough knowledge to know whether they're purposely interbreeding for that matter) is foolish. Whether he clearly states they are hybrids or not, I couldn't care less, it shouldn't be done in the first place - and in my humble opinion, should not be sold on to the public, and certainly not through a specialist medium.



Bit random but I used to work on a travelling fun fair for a few years and Plymouth we used to frequent.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Colosseum said:


> Bit random but I used to work on a travelling fun fair for a few years and Plymouth we used to frequent.




Gypsy!!!!!!


Yes... that is random ... ?


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

forever_20one said:


> Gypsy!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Yes... that is random ... ?


No not Gypsy a Gafflad.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Colosseum said:


> No not Gypsy a Gafflad.



"...they can usually be found being very scruffy the look of a gaff lad is quite blatant, jeans, work boots (steel toe) and a t shirt

main hobbies include, Drinking, Smoking, substance abuse and checking out the local girls or "skippers" as there know to gaff lads."



So, gypsy.


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## mattykyuss (Oct 12, 2009)

*re*

why did you not just buy it ,leave the shop ,and do what your caring nature would do thats best for the spider ,cross breeds ,snakes ,geckos ,bring some of the best colour mophs and high end animals you could ever see ,its not very rare


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

mattykyuss said:


> why did you not just buy it ,leave the shop ,and do what your caring nature would do thats best for the spider ,cross breeds ,snakes ,geckos ,bring some of the best colour mophs and high end animals you could ever see ,its not very rare


You mean selective breeding and mutation, rather than cross breeding then with re: to snakes, geckos, morphs... 

I should hope cross breeding, especially in tarantulas, _is_ fairly rare.


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

So it's now ok to have an opinion on someone and share it in a public forum? You're opinion is based on what you think, not what you know. The saying "keep your opinions to yourself" springs to mind. This thread just look like another excuse for you to whinge and moan about something.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Spiderstock said:


> So it's now ok to have an opinion on someone and share it in a public forum? You're opinion is based on what you think, not what you know. The saying "keep your opinions to yourself" springs to mind. This thread just look like another excuse for you to whinge and moan about something.



Sounds like you're judging me :whistling2: That would make you a hypocrite. 
It's an open forum - full of opinions, factual or not. That's what it's allllll about.


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

come on girls :bash:


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## DaveM (Oct 18, 2006)

Someone mentioned dogs a little earlier? A GSD x Collie, let's say, isn't a hybrid. It's just a cross breed of two other dog breeds. But still Canis lupus familiaris, so a bad comparison.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I know the pet project you speak of.... He's gone down hill so much. Real shame as it could have been a great shop, it's got 2 floors. 
I have had a discussion with said owner about crested gecko diets in the past, but he knows it all of course!


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

DaveM said:


> Someone mentioned dogs a little earlier? A GSD x Collie, let's say, isn't a hybrid. It's just a cross breed of two other dog breeds. But still Canis lupus familiaris, so a bad comparison.


Thats a bit Alan Partridge but i've liked it just the same :lol2:


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

forever_20one said:


> Sounds like you're judging me :whistling2: That would make you a hypocrite.
> It's an open forum - full of opinions, factual or not. That's what it's allllll about.



But your opinions are putting people down you know nothing about. You've never even had a conversation with him. I'm judging you from what I've seen, not what I assume.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Spiderstock said:


> But your opinions are putting people down you know nothing about. You've never even had a conversation with him. I'm judging you from what I've seen, not what I assume.



And I've seen he's purposely bred hybrids, which I disagree with, certainly as he's a respected member of the hobby.


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## mattykyuss (Oct 12, 2009)

*re*

its the same as when you bred a certain type of sp tarantula ,got a egg sack ,then came on here asking for help,so that could of told me ,you like many others ,are not realy a person to judge others and how they keep there animals ,for yourself did not realy do a good reaserch of breeding spiders ,and just thought you would give it ago ,some people might be curious to cross breed tarantulas ,not knowing as much as yourself and how this hobby with crossbreeding is a no go area


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

mattykyuss said:


> its the same as when you bred a certain type of sp tarantula ,got a egg sack ,then came on here asking for help,so that could of told me ,you like many others ,are not realy a person to judge others and how they keep there animals ,for yourself did not realy do a good reaserch of breeding spiders ,and just thought you would give it ago ,some people might be curious to cross breed tarantulas ,not knowing as much as yourself and how this hobby with crossbreeding is a no go area



Nice bit of backstabbing and knife twisting there : victory:
I'm not sure whether asking for help, is _quite _the same as either pet shops mentioned foremost, but if you say so.
Lets get this thread closed then shall we, God forbid anyone should have an opinion (or a whinge ) on a forum, and I think the above is a bit unfair frankly. I know where I won't be coming for help in future if that is people's stance on asking for it


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## mattykyuss (Oct 12, 2009)

*re*

i was not putting you down ,we all know some peoples ways of keeping would not be how we do it ourselves ,but you named and shamed two shops realy ,and this is why there was a defense case ,and probaly will be


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

forever_20one said:


> Well I know the people in Plymouth. I know the kind of people who will go in there and buy said spiders (yes I'm being very generalistic, but truthful). It will be a bloody idiot, who will have basic knowledge, and will think it's "cool" to own.
> I think it's also fair to say, when this breeder _can't_ palm them off, he _will_ be selling them as a normal curly hair. Don't forget, this is a well known breeder in the hobby.
> 
> And, to be fair, I can't stand cross breeds dogs.


why does it matter ?
if it's just an idiot who's going to own it, they won't have the knowledge to breed
it's advertised as a hybrid, so i don't see why it's a problem. so long as you don't breed


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

spinnin_tom said:


> why does it matter ?
> if it's just an idiot who's going to own it, they won't have the knowledge to breed
> it's advertised as a hybrid, so i don't see why it's a problem. so long as you don't breed


It's not an ideal thing to happen. But the breeder has passed these on for exactly what they are. He's not tried palming them off as the thread starter indicated. And neither had the shop. It's just another excuse for someone to have a whinge. 

These were bred as pet spiders. Not something to be bred from. The breeder has stated this.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Spiderstock said:


> It's not an ideal thing to happen. But the breeder has passed these on for exactly what they are. He's not tried palming them off as the thread starter indicated. And neither had the shop. It's just another excuse for someone to have a whinge.
> 
> These were bred as pet spiders. Not something to be bred from. The breeder has stated this.



exactly. i hate hybrids, but i don't see the problem in this at all
if they're sold as an hybrid, then that's exactly what they are and you have to be a fool to consider breeding them to something else.
besides the fact, most people who buy spids from pet shops don't keep them and just want an interesting pet, not something to breed and sell on


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

I bought and played Terminator Salvation on my Xbox Elite earlier not a bad game for 2 quid.


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## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

it is not right breeding mongs plus it can damage the t and the is just no point and the loads of ts about anyway


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

mattykyuss said:


> i was not putting you down ,we all know some peoples ways of keeping would not be how we do it ourselves ,but you named and shamed two shops realy ,and this is why there was a defense case ,and probaly will be



Didn't name the first as I've not really an issue with them, and after being threatened by the second and them killing off their stock, I'm pretty sure I'm the one with the case against them. Well you'd hope, wouldn't you.


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## mikeburmese (Jul 9, 2012)

*B.vagansxB.albopilosum*

I would like to clear several things up, for one I sold the hybrid slngs to the petshop as experimental and not suitable for breeding, also I dont regularly breed hybrids and have never offered or bred any other hybrids for pet shops or anyone else, I bred them as I suspect there may be a hybrid zone in the wild between Costa rica and Mexico/Honduras and I needed specimens for comparison. 
I am against breeding hybrids apart from research reasons and you believe pet shop owners rather too much, I dont breed lots of hybrids and palm them off on pet shops and I am not selling up, (as you told me a pet shop owner apparently said to you) perhaps you should check your facts first.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

mikeburmese said:


> I would like to clear several things up, for one I sold the hybrid slngs to the petshop as experimental and not suitable for breeding, also I dont regularly breed hybrids and have never offered or bred any other hybrids for pet shops or anyone else, I bred them as I suspect there may be a hybrid zone in the wild between Costa rica and Mexico/Honduras and I needed specimens for comparison.
> I am against breeding hybrids apart from research reasons and you believe pet shop owners rather too much, I dont breed lots of hybrids and palm them off on pet shops and I am not selling up, (as you told me a pet shop owner apparently said to you) perhaps you should check your facts first.


But once you sell them to a pet shop you have no control what someone will do with them.
You obviously had your reasons for wanting to try your experiment but to let them out to be available to all and sundry is irresponsible and crass.


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

Graylord said:


> But once you sell them to a pet shop you have no control what someone will do with them.
> You obviously had your reasons for wanting to try your experiment but to let them out to be available to all and sundry is irresponsible and crass.


But at least he's been responsible in stating exactly what they are. Yeah it's not an ideal situation, but give him some credit for being upfront and honest about what he's done.


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## davidfitch (Nov 19, 2008)

Spiderstock said:


> But at least he's been responsible in stating exactly what they are. Yeah it's not an ideal situation, but give him some credit for being upfront and honest about what he's done.


Totally agree they could have said it was anything. Still would be a perfectly good pet for someone just useless if you ever want to breed. Just not for me

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

mikeburmese said:


> I would like to clear several things up, for one I sold the hybrid slngs to the petshop as experimental and not suitable for breeding, also I dont regularly breed hybrids and have never offered or bred any other hybrids for pet shops or anyone else, I bred them as I suspect there may be a hybrid zone in the wild between Costa rica and Mexico/Honduras and I needed specimens for comparison.
> I am against breeding hybrids apart from research reasons and* you believe pet shop owners rather too much, I dont breed lots of hybrids and palm them off on pet shops and I am not selling up, (as you told me a pet shop owner apparently said to you) perhaps you should check your facts first.*


True that. 

Nearly always the 1st thing out of peoples mouths on here when mentioning pet shops is "don't listen to the advice, usually hogwash...." But when it's something you have an opinion on that all goes out the window and the unjustified witch hunt is on. It's all pretty sad really but then that's the internet for you.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

kris74 said:


> True that.
> 
> Nearly always the 1st thing out of peoples mouths on here when mentioning pet shops is "don't listen to the advice, usually hogwash...." But when it's something you have an opinion on that all goes out the window and the unjustified witch hunt is on. It's all pretty sad really but then that's the internet for you.


As I said in a PM - check my facts before what exactly? Making a thread about two pet shops on a forum? Shock horror. I mentioned no names. I stated and passed on what was told me. I have no facts and never said I did - I have an opinion on the situation.
Meant for breeding purposes on not, the pet shop doesn't know who they'll end up with.
And lastly, Again, when a pet shop has killed all of their stock I can slate as much as I like.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

Pet shops are out to make money,Therefore if they can sell it,they will.
People have been hybridizing animals for years and years look at dogs, ligers ect ..
To be honest I don't myself have an opinion on it,There is far more important things like the conservation of wild tarantulas and mass collecting. Its is very unlikely hybrids will ruin the hobby.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

mikeburmese said:


> I bred them as I suspect there may be a hybrid zone in the wild between Costa rica and Mexico/Honduras and I needed specimens for comparison.
> I am against breeding hybrids apart from research reasons and you believe pet shop owners rather too much, I dont breed lots of hybrids and palm them off on pet shops and I am not selling up, (as you told me a pet shop owner apparently said to you) perhaps you should check your facts first.


Very odd read this. Nearly all the expected vagans in the hobby are hybridised, you merely needed to look at hobby specimens. If you know what to look for you'd be able to see the more obvious signs of vagans as opposed to other Brachypelma. However, I rather suspect that the 2 species you bred were hybrids themselves.
The hybridising of these two species is well documented. Its also well documented how far away Costa Rica is from Honduras and Mexico, there's a large country called Nicaragua between them. And between Mexico and Honduras is Guatemala and Belize. 
Mere symantics perhaps but it doesnt suggest to me that your experiment was anything of value. However the selling of the offspring is IMO questionable. It might have been a better option to follow what many do in this situation, freeze them and keep a few for your own observations.


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## mikeburmese (Jul 9, 2012)

*red rumpxcurly hair hybrids*

Actually I let most of them cannibalise, they were from reared specimens and quite possibly hybrids anyway, I gave a few to friends I trust and half a dozen went to one petshop, under the express conditions they weren't for breeding, Hybridisation happens all the time, to a certain amount it is how species evolve, unfortunately and acidentaly some species are often hybridised, for example Avicularia avicularia/A.mettalica/A.nigrotaeniata etc, Hysterocrates spps and B.vagans and close relatives, sadly its a problem of identification, perhaps the only way to be certain is to buy 8 specimens of the same species from an imported batch


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Trouble is, so many people say that hybridising is a natural thing, it happens in the wild.
But in reality this isnt so much the case. We find pockets of tarantula species specific to certain areas, we find locational differences and natural boundaries that split these species up. Where their boundaries meet is where we are likely to find hybrids, however just because they exist in these areas does not suggest that they survive and continue as a mixed species, or that its possible that these can breed. Its more often the case that these die off for a huge variety of reasons, and the pockets of particular species continue.
However, this is all quite different to taking two specimens from unknown locations and putting them together because you think its possible in the wild. Its obviously possible, but there's also a high failure rate, which is part of our evolutionary system.
You might find the scientific reports are of more value, there's quite a good one concerning Grammostola mollicoma Northern with Southern and with iheringi. The results weren't great if I remember rightly.
Anyway, its your experiment, which I have no right to condem. Its the sales of these that I think are questionable because this long name will no doubt be lost and we'll see another "can you ID this tarantula" photo in the forums in a few years time.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

mikeburmese said:


> Actually I let most of them cannibalise, they were from reared specimens and quite possibly hybrids anyway, I gave a few to friends I trust and half a dozen went to one petshop, under the express conditions they weren't for breeding, Hybridisation happens all the time, to a certain amount it is how species evolve, unfortunately and acidentaly some species are often hybridised, for example Avicularia avicularia/A.mettalica/A.nigrotaeniata etc, Hysterocrates spps and B.vagans and close relatives, sadly its a problem of identification, perhaps the only way to be certain is to buy 8 specimens of the same species from an imported batch



Whether your intentions were correct is moot to me, because as Poxicator has just said... in x months time, there will just be another ID me Please thread. Telling the petshops they're not for breeding, as we all know means nothing - the third person down the line doesn't know that. 
Scientifically as a biologist I of course see where you're coming from, whether it was a vaulable study, well... Selling them on, is a completely different matter.


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

And this is a chance to see how well they survive. It's an experiment. He could of gone into a pet shop and sold them as curly hairs or red rumps easily. But he didn't. He fully stated from the start what they were. They are just going to make cheap pets for as long as they live. 

In all fairness this thread has run its course. Either you agree with it or you don't. I myself just see it as an experiment and I'm interested to see the overall conclusion and thoughts from a guy that's been in the hobby for many years. 

This thread was created for an excuse to moan by someone who moans about everything. If everyone loves something she hates its. She's a classic example of a contrarian.


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## [email protected] (Oct 29, 2008)

New to this so bare with me... 


Just so I understand, what's the big deal? 

Does it matter if said slings are sold for breeding or not? I understand that there is a chance of ending up with a mongrel breed of t's but what is stopping anyone going out and breeding different kinds? 

I'm not a fan or hybrids, but have no problem with it as long as its honest. 

Dave


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## mikeburmese (Jul 9, 2012)

*curly hairxred rump*

A final comment on these hybrids is I first brought a curly hair x red rump slng 20 years ago from a very well known breeder which thrived and I reared to adult, I have had no losses from weakness from the slings and they seem perfectly healthy, I dont intend to breed them but to use the adult specimens for comparison and to keep as pets
As regards breeding difficult to id species getting 8 from an importer is very expensive, breeding pairs from the same importer or even getting a batch of 6 slngs is a lot cheaper


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

im just pleased the guy has the opportunity to defend himself


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Spiderstock said:


> But your opinions are putting people down you know nothing about. You've never even had a conversation with him. I'm judging you from what I've seen, not what I assume.


I have never met Stuart Hazell or spoken to him but I still know he is a ****!


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Graylord said:


> But once you sell them to a pet shop you have no control what someone will do with them.
> You obviously had your reasons for wanting to try your experiment but to let them out to be available to all and sundry is irresponsible and crass.


This.


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Spiderstock said:


> And this is a chance to see how well they survive. It's an experiment. He could of gone into a pet shop and sold them as curly hairs or red rumps easily. But he didn't. He fully stated from the start what they were. They are just going to make cheap pets for as long as they live.
> 
> In all fairness this thread has run its course. Either you agree with it or you don't. I myself just see it as an experiment and I'm interested to see the overall conclusion and thoughts from a guy that's been in the hobby for many years.
> 
> This thread was created for an excuse to moan by someone who moans about everything. If everyone loves something she hates its. She's a classic example of a contrarian.




Judging someone you don't know. Hypocrite. That's pretty poor and below the belt seeing as I don't know who the hell you are and have never spoken to you.


EDIT: _NOW _I know what the comments are about. I didn't realise you were back on the forum under a different name. For a "friend" making those comments about me, when a month ago you were trying to get in my pants and failed, you really are a hypocrite. Very disappointing 



Opinions differ, shall we leave it at that and the thread can be closed.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

People this is a forum, Be respectful and polite, Your point will be more valid if you do so.
People opinions will always be different.


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

Brandan Smith said:


> People this is a forum, Be respectful and polite, Your point will be more valid if you do so.
> People opinions will always be different.


What did you get banned for again?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

forever_20one said:


> Judging someone you don't know. Hypocrite. That's pretty poor and below the belt seeing as I don't know who the hell you are and have never spoken to you.
> 
> EDIT: _NOW _I know what the comments are about. I didn't realise you were back on the forum under a different name. For a "friend" making those comments about me, when a month ago you were trying to get in my pants and failed, you really are a hypocrite. Very disappointing


Yes, we knew as well (the mods). I was hoping the false notion that we were oblivious to it would ensure some better behaviour but it seems like old habits die hard.


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