# Entamoeba Invadens Crested Gecko Disease



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I felt it was important to bring the the attention of crested gecko owners something I was dicussing recently with a few breeders and keepers.

Can other keepers or breeders please post their expertise or thoughts or if they have had any experience in dealing with this disease. Information such as signs and symtoms would be of excellent help. Also whether or not a herp vet was able to deal with the situation and what treatment was given if applicable.

thank-you



I took this directly from another source on the net

*Entamoeba Invadens*

This parasite is the only known cause of mortalities in otherwise healthy Crested Geckos. It is believed to come from cross contamination of water or feeder insects where the water/insects are used for amphibians (frogs, turtles, etc.).

The parasite seems to have no effect on the amphibians but is deadly for the Crestie's.

So if you keep amphibians as well as Crestie's then do keep their water and feeder insects well separated.

If the condition is caught early enough it can be treated by a specialist veterinarian.


Written by Mark Alcock​


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

This is a really informative article: Welcome to Repashy Ventures - Reptiles


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Thank you neep-neep

that is really helpful.


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## Reiyuu (Sep 21, 2007)

As some of you know i lost one of my favourite cresties last night. I suspect it was this as the pet shop that I bought him from had kept frogs in the tank the cresties were in beforehand, and they had not changed the decor or cleaned out the viv. There were still frog prints on the glass.

Had I known about this I would have sought treatment. I believe Jaffas death should not be in vain so I urge all crestie owners with amphibians to keep them as seperate as you can!

My experience was bringing home a happy healthy gecko and watchig him stop eating and refuse to eat and spit out force fed food, he lost weight and water and calcium. His calcium pouches were nonexistant when he passed.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Thank you for posting that information Kat. I am sorry for your loss of Jaffa. As you said letting people know this now could save the lives of other cresed geckos in the future.

Maybe t-bo would consider making this thread a sticky.

The crested gecko is becoming more popular than ever now and I can only imagine its popularity going from strength to strength. This information is paramount for any keeper not only for their own personal home husbandry, but as you say when making choices about where to purchase a crested gecko from.


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## ThEeDaRkOnE (Sep 11, 2007)

Hey... first of all, i'm sorry to hear about your loss Kat... it's never easy when you lose an animal... 

As this was the first time i've heard of this parasite, i've managed to find a very good report... think it may be good for all to read... 

www.veterinaria.uchile.cl/publicacion/congresoxi/prafesional/exo/6.doc


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## Reiyuu (Sep 21, 2007)

thanks.. I'm now terrified of amphibians lol


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

sorry to hear about your loss Reiyuu. If you really do believe it was Entamoeba invadnes that affected Jaffa you really need to get your whole collection, cresteds and all other animals as well treated because it travels fo virulently and can lay dorment in less susceptible species without you noticing until it inevitably passes back to the Cresties again. I'm sure you'll do everything you need to to sort it out anyway but thought i'd mention it.


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## Reiyuu (Sep 21, 2007)

yes i will have them all shecked out .. will not have jaffa pm'd though.. just laid to rest he went through enough and i cant bear the thought of them opening him up


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

Really think a post mortem needs to be done to see if that was actually the cause.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

A point to remeber is that other reptiles can also be carriers and yet not show signs, art gecko was right when she mentioned this and it should not be overlooked.

However crested gecoks are definately extremely susceptable and it appears far more life threatening in this species than many others.


So even breeders or pet shops with both amphibians and reps need to be ultra careful

For instance if you spray your amphibians with a spray bottle then take the same bottle to spray your cresties,
the back spray ( when the misting comes back from within the tank even miute drops) from the tanks could be on the bottle and could be carried water bourne from tank to tank...

also if you house your feeder insects next to one another from both cresteds and amphibians... there could be a contamination.

Its something to think about when considering who to buy from and where.. and although cresteds are affected it can also affect other animals too.

I have wanted dart frogs for a long time but whilst researching them the past few months i discovered when checking with cross-contamination issues that crested geckos are specifically prone to weakness with this specific parasite.

this does not mean that no other reptile species is affected by it.. it means that cresties are VERY susceptable.

Therefore my conclusion has been to NOT house amphibians within my home.

A few of my friends that keep cresties are considering moving their amphibians to a seperate room and some already have.

I appreciate this is a decision other crested gecko keepers have to make for themselves.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

I wasnt aware until today that amphibians were carriers of it, its quite commonly believed that Entamoeba invadens can only affect Rhacodactylus, i think because theyre SO susceptible to it compared to other animals so people dont think other animals can even get it. although they can clearly be carriers. 

It goes to show you can never be too careful, but i personally keep amphibians and i believe that so long as you get your amphibians/other reptiles from reliable, CB sources, there shouldnt need to be mass panic about keeping Amphibians away from Cresteds. I've had an article about this on my website for a while now, and the thing that gets me about this disease is that its SO easily treatable.... IF you catch it in time, and it seems that time, and the awareness and virulence of the keepers in spotting the problem early on is the key to stopping this becoming a pandemic. 

If anyone suspects their gecko to have Entamoeba invandens after reading this then they should NOT wait to see if the condition worsens, That seems to be the main problem. The symptoms look so minor, that as a habit of dealing with species who conceal illness so well and often go off their food, we leave getting to a vet until the condition manifests itself properly, and by that time its too late.


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Lynn, this is very infectious and deadly to snakes aswell btw...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I think the not being aware bit is so true..

this is why im hoping the thread can be made a sticky art gecko...

the problem also seems to be that the feeder items for the amphibians can also carry it.. dependant on the sources they come from..

so thats why irrespective of me thinking of buying CB azureus frogs im not going to now.. art gecko is it proven that CB dont carry any parasites of this kind.. if so how??



i really just dont want to risk it.

Thanks for everyone sharing all they know so far.


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Lynn, Ed knows a lot about this, surprisingly a lot. He says if they have it they have it and it will show. They cannot just carry it and pass it on, there will be clear signs that the animal is sick. And its HIGHLY infectious.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Lynn, this is very infectious and deadly to snakes aswell btw...


 
yes i know 

But cresties are particularly unable to fight it off.

However Its also important that we know about it within the rep community in general.
As many of our animals we buy come from sources where there have been amphibians WC or otherwise.

large places such as online exotic dealers and breeders etc...


its a case of being super careful but id prefer not to take the risk in the first place im just glad i did the research.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Lynn, Ed knows a lot about this, surprisingly a lot. He says if they have it they have it and it will show. They cannot just carry it and pass it on, there will be clear signs that the animal is sick. And its HIGHLY infectious.


thats very important info for Kat i think ( and any other rep kepers that house amphibians and other verious reptiles)

I will let her know when she gets on MSN tonight

would Ed be willing to talk to me about it,.

Although im not getting ANY amphibians now, I would really like to know as much as i can about this.

I believe terrapins and turtles carry it too,


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Aye Ed would be willing to talk to you although he says that if the only reason you suspect it to be EI is because it was housed in an amphibians hoose beforehand then he doubts it would be EI. He says an autopsy is essential and it could be anything under the sun (including EI)

*shurugs*


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Aye Ed would be willing to talk to you although he says that if the only reason you suspect it to be EI is because it was housed in an amphibians hoose beforehand then he doubts it would be EI. He says an autopsy is essential and it could be anything under the sun (including EI)
> 
> *shurugs*


 
I will discuss things with Kat tonight

I know shes very upset but it may be the best thing for her collection

She also keeps amphibians you see... 

I really need to find out if its ONLY WC amphibians that this parasite is carried by...

IM not sure talking to Ed will give me a clearer picture thanks elle.


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

I know what you mean, he looks at things from every possible angle and always tries to disprove the worst case senario.


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## negri21 (Oct 8, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I think the not being aware bit is so true..
> 
> this is why im hoping the thread can be made a sticky art gecko...
> 
> ...




what does the bit in bold actually mean ? 

i buy crickets/locusts/mealworms . i house them away from all my vivs but all my animals get fed from the same supply ...

are you saying that the cricket suppliers are sending out crickets with this disease ?


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

negri21 said:


> what does the bit in bold actually mean ?
> 
> i buy crickets/locusts/mealworms . i house them away from all my vivs but all my animals get fed from the same supply ...
> 
> are you saying that the cricket suppliers are sending out crickets with this disease ?


 
NO i didnt say that nor am i saying that either. I meant amphibian sepcific feeder items that come in water, not dry insects, but let me find out more about that too, im new to this, and am trying to get all the info i can hence this thread.


Science will always conflict and various research wont always give the same results or opinions.

I am sifting through every article I can.


Now since there are a fair few crestie keepers on here that didnt even KNOW about this issue till today ( and they also keep amphibians) that goes to show you how under-educated we all are about it, ME included. Thankfully im learning now. I now have deiced not to keep amphibians 


I spent last night talking to kat as jaffa was dying. This was what prompted me to delve deeper, although I had been researching it anyway . There is mixed info right now, so im trying to collate everyones knowledge experience and links on this one thread to get definitive answers,thats what is usually the best way to find out.

Im not a scientist ... I am a concerned keeper.



I will await discussion with edward and a few others tonight to get a far clearer picture, and if this takes a few days to get a more comprehensive overall view thats fine. However witht he death of jaffa last night I felt it was important to point out this issue.

I am also trying to collate an email to some breeders who have atually had to deal with this issue within their own collection to find out more.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

I believe this could be the poss cause of so many Crestie wipeouts in America Cresties being a newish species to even the bigger breeders.

I did find a very good article on this subject a while back I will try to track it down again 

yes its due to cross contamination but this applies for any reptile EG beardies can carry a low level of coccida without any problems but pass that onto a uro and it will kill them  

p xx


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## negri21 (Oct 8, 2007)

you said 



> *problem also seems to be that the feeder items for the amphibians can also carry it*



now i feed my frogs the same crickets that i feed all my reps .. i havent seen them labeled any differently in any pet shop ive been in ..


what feeder items do you mean ?


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Ciliatus.com - The Ultimate Crested Gecko Resource - Entamoeba invadens
If you hae a weak stomach this link contains pictures of post mortems.
I've had no reports of illness from other Uk breeders. 

Here it is general overview.
Paula xx


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Molly75 said:


> I believe this could be the poss cause of so many Crestie wipeouts in America Cresties being a newish species to even the bigger breeders.
> 
> I did find a very good article on this subject a while back I will try to track it down again
> 
> ...


 
can anyone get a hold of that article..

i did hear of it wiping out some collections in the states


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

sparkle said:


> can anyone get a hold of that article..
> 
> i did hear of it wiping out some collections in the states


Here it is 
Ciliatus.com - The Ultimate Crested Gecko Resource - Entamoeba invadens
p xx


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

negri21 said:


> you said
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
items within water was what ive been told..

as i said on msn sevral times..

let me find out from other breeders and keepers and people who know more about this and i wil happily post on the thread..

In the meantime any other concerned keeper could posibly do the same ... the more we know the better..

i appreciate there are parasites a plenty in general however this one does seem to affect cresties particularly badly but if caught in time can be cured...

thats also very important knowledge


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## negri21 (Oct 8, 2007)

scottw mentioned it in a thread but i dont think there was a reason giving.


would be good to find out if that is the case or not


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Molly75 said:


> Here it is
> Ciliatus.com - The Ultimate Crested Gecko Resource - Entamoeba invadens
> p xx


ah ok ive read that one.

I need more info on the feeder items for amphibians.

I think it may take some time to get a fuller picture.

In the mean time at least its brought to light that there werea fair few of us who had no idea about this.

shall try and find out more info as the week progresses and update when i can...

scottw would indeed be a great person to talk to about this 

can others possibly do the same thanks


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## negri21 (Oct 8, 2007)

one thing for sure .. if ever there was an argument for definitely quarantining your animals this is it


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

The thing is quarantine doesn't always work when people cut corners by sharing boxes of food, mister bottles, feeding tongs, bins etc

If you were to properly quarantine you would ideally need an airtight chamber with it's own water supply, a wee suit to wear, disinfecting showers stepping into and out of the room etc. Extreme senario and simply not practical for the animals or keeper but thats the only way to ensure nothing goes in and nothing comes out (even airborne infections etc)

I am 100% positive people slip up sometimes without even knowing it or just through sheer laziness... I know I have when I had a sick royal python and his RI was passed onto a carpet python that was lodging at my house at the same time.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

If it does turn out to be Entamoeba Invadens which believe is a very strong possiblity as not many causes of illness in the Rhacc group has been reported infact when the first Cilliatus arrived it was believed they were resilient to many protazoan infections and viruses.

I keep/breed the following Ciliatus, leachianus,Chahoua,sarasinorium and Auriculatus.

I have encounted  Entamoeba Invadens in my collection but not in rhaccs we run a sanctuary so have had this arrived in varied reptiles food sources need to be kept sep as with regards to the transfering yes its in contaminated water via feacal matter and it will travel via feeder insects.

With good practiced barrier care I have not had one problem and have only ever lost one crested gecko due to natural causes.

The only issue is the medication Metronidazole (flagyl) does not work well at lower temps and reptiles need to be fully rehydrated before use or this will kill them.


p xx


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

> I keep/breed the following Ciliatus, leachianus,Chahoua,sarasinorium and Auriculatus.


sounds like you need some Trachys!

I completely agree, i think that its important that information be made available on the disease, as the main reason i dont know as much as id like about this is because the info is so difficult to track down. Whatever info you find Sparkle, i'll be more than happy to add to the 'medical health' page of my website and hopefully this (or another thread made to collate the info) will become a sticky.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> sounds like you need some Trachys!
> 
> I LOl yes I do have my eye on these but they're coming in from america and I'm not willing to take the chance at the mo  due to the fact the treatment may be an issue due to temps if any probs are encountered?
> 
> ...


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

does make you wonder about whether all these shipments from the US we seem to be getting atm are a good idea considering how little is known


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> does make you wonder about whether all these shipments from the US we seem to be getting atm are a good idea considering how little is known


So true  all the America problems are yet to arrive here ther's many new reptile viruses found all the time many thought to be air bourne p xx


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Thing is guys, people have been importing exotic animals for decades, and there have always been exotic diseased to accompany them. This is not new, it's not undeard of and it's certainly not going to go away.

IBD and crypto are the two biggest boid and colubrid killers in the states, and collections are rife with it and they don't even know. Think of how many royals and boas and corns etc are imported every year, and try to imagine what percentage of them are infected with an incurable disease that can harbour their entire lifes and never show any symptoms...


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

havent read all the thread, im in a rush... but now im panicing, 2 of my cresties have become amazingly thin, on drugs, but nothng... im worried now/.
real worried.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Thing is guys, people have been importing exotic animals for decades, and there have always been exotic diseased to accompany them. This is not new, it's not undeard of and it's certainly not going to go away.
> 
> IBD and crypto are the two biggest boid and colubrid killers in the states, and collections are rife with it and they don't even know. Think of how many royals and boas and corns etc are imported every year, and try to imagine what percentage of them are infected with an incurable disease that can harbour their entire lifes and never show any symptoms...


 
Think it was estimated to affect around 40% of boa's at one point not sure if anyone can be sure on this as the excect's can never come to a fore  I've sadly had to deal with IBD many years ago in a burm yep they have been around for years but the medications are not staying ahead of the infections.
p xx


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

With any viral infection, the virus always changes and becomes something new. If they can't even treat human viruses yet then I don't think coming up with a cure for IBD in boids is a priority... Thats the sad reality. It's like the snake form of HIV.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> sounds like you need some Trachys!
> 
> I completely agree, i think that its important that information be made available on the disease, as the main reason i dont know as much as id like about this is because the info is so difficult to track down. Whatever info you find Sparkle, i'll be more than happy to add to the 'medical health' page of my website and hopefully this (or another thread made to collate the info) will become a sticky.


 
thanks sarah .. i think we could use this thread to get al the info and blurb out..

thrash out the wrong bits and the right bits, gets expert info and work together to collate a really excellent thread thats totally factual and specific.. but we cant do that without conversing publically liek this first and getting keepers and breeders on board... that way we should all have different contacts etc and they may know of more research etc...

that way also we wont have a messy thread with personal opinion..

Youre site is extremely comprehensive so it would be fantastic to have something there too.

lets keep going for now and find out ALL we can.. surely thats the right thing to do when faced with something like this


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Molly75 said:


> Art_Gecko101 said:
> 
> 
> > sounds like you need some Trachys!
> ...


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

sparkle said:


> Molly75 said:
> 
> 
> > I'M screening all my beardies this year for adeno too..
> ...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

has anyone written anything up yet on various other carrier animals..


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Hi ya 
this is old old dats but stil current i should think these species are carrier without any reported problems.

Most of the data is ref to snakes but i do know these lot are carriers garters kings all snake eating snakes most amphibs and box turtles.

it would seem most reps which eat reps or are water based are not as suceptable.

I've had leo's showing symptoms but fecals were inconclsive.
I've treated this in the following reptiles 
Corns rat snakes boids and turtles.
p xx


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> havent read all the thread, im in a rush... but now im panicing, 2 of my cresties have become amazingly thin, on drugs, but nothng... im worried now/.
> real worried.


I know that your vet said they found a 'uni-cellular parasite', did they elaborate on what type it could have been? I.e. protozoan, amoeboid?

It may be worth trying to get the vet to confirm its identity, at least for your own sanity!


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

They have infact prescribed Ginas animals a course of flagyl anyway if i remember rightly which is what you use to treat E.i


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Aye, I saw they had - but I can understand it will be a worry not knowing, i'd guess a confirmation (or not, as hopefully the case may be!) would be useful to set her mind at rest and/or to help with any decision to treat any of the other cresties. I don't have any first hand experience of E.i, it just seems that the articles suggest to treat all animals if E.i. is present. At least it will take a weight off her mind anyhow to know what she's dealing with - I think if I was in the same situation I would also be a little worried right now :blush:


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

yea thats basically what i said in pm to her just before i saw her post on this thread and replied here too. I also suggested that if she has any separate vivs spare, that she move the potentially sick animals out of the viv stack theyre in, just incase it helps stop or slow spread if it does turn out to be E.i and to follow the strictest quarantine style procedures until its been eliminated as a possibility.


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

sounds like panic stations in the UK already :?....slow down, gather info and post facts 

I really can't comment on what, if any problems breeders are having in the USA. All I know is that I have been unable to import any due to a shortage of available geckos. The reason given by one of the largest USA reptile breeders was that several of the Rhaco breeders collections had suffered large losses (effectively meaning they are producing less but holding back more). I was hoping to import some to hold back as breeders for myself, allowing me to sell my own young off, obviously this won't happen now so it means I have to limit the number I sell vastly 


Just one tip I would offer any keeper is to try and limit how much water you spray and where you spray it. Reason - cresteds aren't that clever and will happily lick what sprayed off anything in their viv including their own crap.

I stopped spraying my adult cresteds TOTALLY about 2 years ago, not had any problems with shedding, egg laying or health (yes, you need to provide humidity etc but there are many ways of achieving the same results 

If you want more specific info, then have a look on my crested forum Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred :: View Forum - Rhacodactylus Geckos there's some great info and tips etc.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Scott W said:


> sounds like panic stations in the UK already :?....slow down, gather info and post facts
> 
> I really can't comment on what, if any problems breeders are having in the USA. All I know is that I have been unable to import any due to a shortage of available geckos. The reason given by one of the largest USA reptile breeders was that several of the Rhaco breeders collections had suffered large losses (effectively meaning they are producing less but holding back more). I was hoping to import some to hold back as breeders for myself, allowing me to sell my own young off, obviously this won't happen now so it means I have to limit the number I sell vastly
> 
> ...


 HI Scott 

that's really interesting as i only spray mine once a week at the very most and same no problems at all  
all mine will drink from bowls also all those dame areas are a haven for mites  ans bacteria 
p xx


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

> sounds like panic stations in the UK already :?....slow down, gather info and post facts


Thats exactly why Lynn (sparkle), myself and anyone else who'd like to contribute will be trying to research into the facts about E.i and then hopefully posting a completely factual sticky on here about it. It is something that is worrying for us rhac keepers because being all CB, we dont often seem to have to deal with parasite and contageous disease issues (aside from the odd pinworm lol) very often. Ive read lots about E.i on US forums, and its definately something that keepers need to be aware of, but i agree that we dont need to be panicing and rushing out cancelling orders, stocking up on CGD and battening down the hatches just yet!


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Molly75 said:


> HI Scott
> 
> that's really interesting as i only spray mine once a week at the very most and same no problems at all
> all mine will drink from bowls also all those dame areas are a haven for mites  ans bacteria
> p xx


ditto, the humidity in my vivs stays perfect without spraying due to the waterfalls and pool areas i have (filtered and circulated constantly so its not stagnent) and so i only spray once a week, or if one of them is in shed. So do you believe that E.i is waterborne?


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> ditto, the humidity in my vivs stays perfect without spraying due to the waterfalls and pool areas i have (filtered and circulated constantly so its not stagnent) and so i only spray once a week, or if one of them is in shed. So do you believe that E.i is waterborne?


Not water bourne as such but could carry in supplies like years ago when Crypto entered the essex water supply.
The reason is the cysts will live and cross infect via water being the non effective stage they will cross infect anything drinking them.

I do beleive these not need to worry at this point I house 50 odd different species and have had no problems.

Also many years working in reptile Import E invadens is not quite as coomon as you'd expect.
p xx


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

I have turts and cresties, but the only insects I use are crix and locusts, I feed turtles dry food, so I assume this means my cresties are safe?


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Molly75 said:


> Not water bourne as such but could carry in supplies like years ago when Crypto entered the essex water supply.
> The reason is the cysts will live and cross infect via water being the non effective stage they will cross infect anything drinking them.
> 
> I do beleive these not need to worry at this point I house 50 odd different species and have had no problems.
> ...


 
I see! that makes alot of sense.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

That is really helpful. That link is excelent scott and I only spray occasionalyll too but i wil be looking into prehaps stopping altogether and finding more innovative ways of moderating the humidity. so thanks for that.

it is sad that some of the marican keepers have had wipe outs of collections.. i wonder what happened.. and it does make you wonder about importing right now...

As i said earlier in the thread were trying to gather facts and make a suitable factual sticky.

but the only way to do that was to start a thread like this as there are SO many opinions on this and various written papers to sift through.

IM trying to find specific and conclusive factual and scientific evidence as is Sarah ( art gecko)

Theres no way im battening down the hatches at all. IM not panicking just interested and concerned about learning more.

but awareness and knowlegde is important and many keepers simply wouldnt even consider anything like this.. I think its important to make people aware of various things that can happen thats all. A crestie that isnt eating a losing weight might not be seen as a major issue by some ( it would by me) however some people just think its gone off food... whereas its important that keppers know it could be something more sinister.. allbeit it not likely its stil important to treat things with care. 

so yeah lets pull together to make a comprehensive sticky and that way theres no ifs and buts...

thanks everyone for the input so far.


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

sparkle said:


> That is really helpful. That link is excelent scott and I only spray occasionalyll too but i wil be looking into prehaps stopping altogether and finding more innovative ways of moderating the humidity. so thanks for that.
> 
> it is sad that some of the marican keepers have had wipe outs of collections.. i wonder what happened.. and it does make you wonder about importing right now...
> 
> ...


Well why not go and find out about it, then come back when you have all the FACTS and post, maybe then it will be made a sticky. At the moment everyone is worried their Cresties are going to die if the happen to touch their frog then them.

How many people have Lizard/Geckos?
How many people have Frogs?
How many people keep them together?
And how many animals have died in the UK from it?

I think everyone needs to be aware of it but coming on and getting everyone wound up isn't the right way of doing it.

You want to go and find out the actual truth, then come back with a sticky that helps everyone out and you can pat yourself on the back for for saving the UK's animals.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Mrs Spongebob, i can assure you that Lynn (sparkle) didnt mean the thread to come across in a melodramatic panic way at all, but the problem is that you cant just


> go and find out about it, then come back when you have all the FACTS


 simply because the reason this disease has the potential to do so much damage is because the symptoms are so seemily mild. If she did a survey of how many peoples animals have had E.i then she'd get maybe one or 2 replies, but im sure if you did a survey asking how many people have had animals stop eating, lose weight, get lethargic and die you'd get many many many responses. now only a small percent of those cases would be E.i. but the lack of knowledge is what makes it hard to get information on the FACTS about E.i. I for one have been well aware about E.i for a long while, and have had a paragraph on the medical health section of my website since i found out about it, but to be honest, i was surprised that so few people knew about E.i when this thread was created. its therefore very important people are aware of the symptoms. 
There's a big difference however between 'being aware' and going overboard. 

It is quite naive to think that someone can just go out and get the FACTS without posting a thread such as this to see what response you get, for example look how many useful links to information have been posted that Lynn may not otherwise have found. The responses may have been very different to what they were, everyone could have come and said 'yea yea old news not a problem' but as it was hopefully this thread will have put E.i on the radar of more people when considering one of their reps is acting off. 

Its very very easy to get carried away when you read information about a potentiall fatal very contageous disease that could have the potential to wipe out your pets. Very easy indeed. and moreso when new people are adding to the thread who have never heard about it before and it starts sounding like some killer pandemic. Obviously that isnt the case, but it is easy to get carried away with worry for your pets.


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## sarasin (Dec 8, 2007)

Sorry I have only just seen this thread, I haven't been on here for a couple of nights as have been really busy. I have to agree with those who are saying try not to panic to much. I also agree that we need as much info on this disease as we can find, lets all pool any info we get and try to help one another. Sparkle had the right idea when she said we should have a sticky on the subject. 
I dont think people should jump the gun here either, if your gecko is losing weight, dont assume they have this disease, get to a vet and let them decide.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> yea thats basically what i said in pm to her just before i saw her post on this thread and replied here too. I also suggested that if she has any separate vivs spare, that she move the potentially sick animals out of the viv stack theyre in, just incase it helps stop or slow spread if it does turn out to be E.i and to follow the strictest quarantine style procedures until its been eliminated as a possibility.


to art gecko, and neepneep 
he didnt tell me exactly what it was, as he could only find a few things there, she hasnt eaten nither has he for a long long long time, so no poos to look at , he flushed them, and only got a few cells. they will be movign in to my bedroom thisweekend, (when royal mail..) decide to give me my heatmats and stats (teh rest of my house is freezing you see).


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## sarasin (Dec 8, 2007)

I do hope people won't start getting rid of their cresteds because of this, and we are not going to suddenly see lots of cresteds for sale.


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

I agree people need to know about it but it's got everyone at panic stations.

Like you said for all the animals that have stopped eating, losing weight and all the other symptoms only very few will have this. There's a million other things that could be causing it. Do we have as much awareness of these things as we do E.i. 

I dont think it's naive to come on and say go and find the facts i think it's naive to come on here and say things like "Ooooh i bought a Crestie from the shop that had frogs in it before" implying that their Crestie had E.i because of that, also saying they're not going to buy a frog now "just in case".

I do understand people need to know about it and what to watch for but not everyone's Cresties are going to drop dead if their owners happen to have a frog in the same room, or if they feed them crix, or they happen to come from a rep shop that also sells frogs.


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## Reiyuu (Sep 21, 2007)

Having looked into this a bit more and comparing what happened to him and backtracking from the store I got him I'm not at all certain that this is what killed Jaffa.

I think that he died because the shop I got him from has seriously declined in the quality department and they are lying about their animals. they told me he was eating CGD but he wouldnt touch it.. he ate babyefood only. he has a seriouse calcium deficiency. He had no calcuim pouches when he was looked over after death. My guess is he was not fed properly at all and he never recovered.

Also he was only young.. about 10 month old.. and potentially wild caught as most of their lizard stock is wild cuught and he had a few scars around his face.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Reiyuu said:


> Also he was only young.. about 10 month old.. and potentially wild caught as most of their lizard stock is wild cuught and he had a few scars around his face.


He wouldn't have been wild caught himself - as I believe there are no longer exports out of New Caledonia - but if the shops quarantine procedures between him and their WC stock were poor, then obviously cross-contamination is a possibility for a whole range of pathogens.


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## negri21 (Oct 8, 2007)

he certainly wasnt wild caught , 

but as neepneep says , if the shop had WC stock in then there is a chance that there has been a cross contamination of parasites . . 

a post-mortem should have been done before this thread was even put up and facts were gathered


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

negri21 said:


> he certainly wasnt wild caught ,
> 
> but as neepneep says , if the shop had WC stock in then there is a chance that there has been a cross contamination of parasites . .
> 
> a post-mortem should have been done before this thread was even put up and facts were gathered


 
why?

and the owner has decided not to post mortem the animal as he has been buried...

making this thread actually informed various crestie keepers of valuable info they didnt know.. even some of the longer term keepers and breeders...
you can never please everyone with these threads.. i didnt panic....
if you read back others did not me..

and why.. because they havent taken animals showing signs of ill health to the vets in time... i feel heart sorry as one of those people is my friend but at the same time factual thread info is what this is about not personal worry of crestie sales drops...
If people choose to panic when given links to factual reports then thats about their OWN personal reactions... nothing in those reports or the links in this thread..

i didnt panic..

and im not sorry there are owners now thinking.... ok my cresties not well i shall take it to the vet.. thats positive not negative... 

the very fact they didnt do that BEFORE this thread is what makes me wonder .. a non-eating lizard of any sort should be taken top the vets without a thread like this surely

anyway irrespective of whether any of the cresties remotely have a parasite or not it looks liek people once again want to tighten up on hygiene and husbandry,,,

why is that a bad thing...

The breeders in the states ScottW mentioned have indeed suffered losses of animals... its not a nice thing when we lose our animals but although there could be a myriad of reasons KNOWLEDE is power in these situations..

IM 100% sure there are more people who would rather have known this NOW than in 2 3 or even 4 months... it may help educate some owners who had no idea of it thats all..

there are plenty of people i know whose excuse is..

but i never had a problem UNTIL....

thats a poor excuse in my book .. but an honest and real one...





I have had support Pms saying thank you i will tighten my hygiene ( from keppers in general who had NO idea of this) and also others saying i shouldnt have put it up.. I am past caring about price drops etc... I myself will be breeding cresties this year... But i care more about making people aware of issues both about any ilnesses or husbandry ( as scott w helped with) and trying to work together with other crestie owners and breeders to get the best and most comprehensive facts about this...

yes i know there are MILLIONS of viruses and bacteriums.. and no we cant learn about them all.. but if we DO know about some why not pull together and get facts...

I can only control what I TYPE.. not how others react so im not being held responsible for those peoples reactions... sorry but we are al grown ups here

if the info is already on the net whats the problem with bringing it up here.. it was mainly LINKS that were initially put up that was it... I explained i wasnt sure of all the facts as im not a scientist...

and asked for help..

i didnt say jaffa had died of this parasite... not once..

I said could we pull together and get info..

this thread should not turn into one camp against the other...

we all all keppers therefore should love and care for our animals..

if i dont sell ONE crestie this year but my animals are safe thats fine by me..

id prefer that than to say nothing and let others NOT know about this..





Plenty of other RFUK members debate every day possible causes of death in their animals.. they never post mortem them.. even larger breeders.. but as soon as any post remotely threatens any sales breeders panic..

there are LOADS of parasites and viruses in humans and animals full stop.. its part of being alive

rep keeping wil always involve them simple.. so should we not mention any of them incase we cant sell our animals... hmmmmm

getting facts out there is what its about not staying shctum to suit others



I have had some Pms and thank yous off newer crestie keppers saying they didnt know about the humidity point that Scott W brought up and that they are now considering changing their ways of keeping the tanks humid.. isnt that a positive...

lets not turn this thread into a THEM AND US..

it gets tedious on here... and it was never meant to be about that

without this RFUK thread a lot of good info wouldnt have been brought to the attention of many newer keepers... not everyone does as much research as some people on here...



this isnt about the market to sale animals.. it wil be and always has been for me..


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## negri21 (Oct 8, 2007)

at the end of the day if you have an animal that looks ill , no amount of talking or fact finding on here is going to help it .

it needs to be taken to a *vet *, parasites are not new , but with the right care and a dose of what the vet gives will hopefully help ..


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

I know why people should know about these things but having any parasite can be just as fatal to reps as E.i. 

There is no home cure for things like that and people should be aware that if their Crestie loses weight, stops eating and is just generally poorly that a trip to the vets should be made ASAP. 

Telling people everything about the parasite is not necessary, what it is, where it comes from and what you should be doing to lessen your chances of getting it would have been great. I still have no real idea where it comes from.

You seem to be saying that the people who do not agree with the thread just have Crestie's for breeding and value purposes. Do you really think thats true??


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Mrs_SpongeBob said:


> I know why people should know about these things but having any parasite can be just as fatal to reps as E.i.
> 
> There is no home cure for things like that and people should be aware that if their Crestie loses weight, stops eating and is just generally poorly that a trip to the vets should be made ASAP.
> 
> ...


but what is there to disagree with,.,. I am interested in factual informtation... if you dont want to know about parasites and viruses that is fine.. im not forcing that information on you.. I however do..

it interestes me... and i want to know the facts... so i posted here..

next time truly i wont bother..

but if the one good thing that has come out of this thread is the extra info from SCOTTW about the humidity issue then I am glad.. as i had no idea about that...

it wouldnt have crossed my mind.

the thing a lot of people dont undersand on here is that so many keppers just dont bother withhygiene or vets until something bad happens..

it should be about prevention not locking the gate after the horse has bolted...



it was initially just a fact finding misson thats all..

if you read my last post u will see that i also agree a vets visit if you have a very sick animal is important, but i dont agree NOT posting about scintific facts is wrong.. thats just silly....

why is it not ok to place info on a forum that is factual..

my repsonsibility is not other peoples panicked reactions... quite frankly its tough if they panic.. i for one am NOT panicking... i myself keep and breed cresties... and im not one iota panicked

maybe the ones panicking were the ones not taking their animals to the vets....


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

Ah well.

Least we learnt something of Scott W. 

.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Telling people everything about the parasite is not necessary, what it is, where it comes from and what you should be doing to lessen your chances of getting it would have been great. I still have no real idea where it comes from.

Ok 
WHERE
These lots of possible routes as i stated before here is an example of how its transfered.

A large supplier may import a large number of carrier reps E.G Ribbon and garter snakes at the same time they could supply/breed vast numbers of crickets loose crickets will eat the feaces of any of the carriers be it dropped on a floor or they make it into a viv the crix them make there way back to live food colonies and thus infect others via fecal matter once again and are now carriers.
This applies for nearly all infections to be honest so no need to panic.

same applies to water bowls which will carry the cysts and thus are recycles.
Animal to animal eg no Q Enclosures

PREVENTION
Well to be honest you can only do your best keep enclosures/bowls bacteria free and clean.
Ref to livefood that;s the same for all protazoan infection give or take the odd and its not common as you'd think so really not need to wory i won't be 
And you could always breed roaches at home for rhaccs they are ideal food sources.

I personally belive that knowing all the facts are the way to go I mean if you don't know the life cycle of EI them you would not know of the cyst stage.

Treatment is simple and effective I've treated many reps with EI over the years with total succes and Coccida being a much more comon problem is much harder to eradicate in my experience.

Paula


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

Why that couldn't have been posted at the start of the thread...


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Because i have 300 reptiles to maintain and a sanctuary to run.:bash:

I offer this as help not to be jumped on I have very little time to post as I'm very busy.

P


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## Mrs_SpongeBob (Jan 27, 2008)

Lololol.

Tin hat on, wasn't getting at you.

Just saying the thread would have been so much better started like that.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Mrs_SpongeBob said:


> Lololol.
> 
> Tin hat on, wasn't getting at you.
> 
> Just saying the thread would have been so much better started like that.


yep agree there maybe if someone wants to move it? 

hope it helps people out.
p xx


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## soloth (Oct 17, 2007)

this never made sticky?

does any one know about infections with regards to any other gecko genus or for that matter all of the rhacodactylus?


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Yep  prob easier to PM 
p xx


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## soloth (Oct 17, 2007)

Molly75 said:


> Yep  prob easier to PM
> p xx


awaiting inbound!!


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

If your worried about the routes of entry to various species it varies so much some medications can be fatal to one species and will work a treat on others.

Some species are also hardier E.G beardies are prone to carry a low level of coccida but this is fatal to uro's.

The main issue starts via petshops as most buy from large wholesalers also you have all the parasites going added into the mix then theres the livefood which is free to escape from contaminted viv's and infect other cononies of live food.

E invadens has been reported to be less fatal to other species of Rhacc at this point but to be honest a good hand cleaner and keeping everything sep with keep all reps safe.

p xx


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## soloth (Oct 17, 2007)

so just good hygiene as is neccessary anyway should be practiced.

: victory:

thank you, i think this thread should be condensed and make a stickey

the popularity of cresties makes this an essential read.

so good information and some good points here


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

soloth said:


> so just good hygiene as is neccessary anyway should be practiced.
> 
> : victory:


Yep that's it  and find a really really good reptile vet if you find a good one there great  hope this helps put your mind at rest  i buy all my livefood from a very large wholesaler who imports lots and I've had no probs  so your'll be fine and E invadens is not really that common at the mo 
p xx


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## Pumpkinman (Mar 26, 2011)

Hey guys! 
Chris here from Toronto canada! 

I know this is a old thread, I found it by googling E.I. 
My bearded dragon just tested positive for this. There is very little I formation about EI in beardies. I am not sure if it is fatal or not.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2011)

Pumpkinman said:


> Hey guys!
> Chris here from Toronto canada!
> 
> I know this is a old thread, I found it by googling E.I.
> My bearded dragon just tested positive for this. There is very little I formation about EI in beardies. I am not sure if it is fatal or not.


Hello and :welcome: 

I would advise giving your local herp vet a quick ring as I have never heard of a case of Entamoeba Invadens in lizards other than cresties. Out of curiosity how did you find out? Was it a routine faecal test or was your beardie showing symptoms such as lethargy (well... more lethargic than usual for this time of year).


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## Pumpkinman (Mar 26, 2011)

It is a long story but I will be quick. 
I got 2 beardies in January from the same breeder but different clutches. 
The male was 9 grams, the female 27 grams. 
Both had long relocation stress periods but the females lasted forever. After 6 weeks both dragons were around 30 grams. 
I took the female to a herp vet because of a open sore on her mouth. The vet prescribed a antibiotic and ointment. Within 3 days the female did a 180. Gained 10 grams after being on the antibiotic. All the while I was collecting fecal from her for a week as per the vet. I took it in and it was positive for EI. Now she is on a new med called panacur. I am giving it to my male as well just in case. 

Chris


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2011)

Pumpkinman said:


> It is a long story but I will be quick.
> I got 2 beardies in January from the same breeder but different clutches.
> The male was 9 grams, the female 27 grams.
> Both had long relocation stress periods but the females lasted forever. After 6 weeks both dragons were around 30 grams.
> ...


Ahh ok, well you shouldn't have any further problems now  Just make sure you keep them in clinic clean conditions for the rest of the treatment period to prevent re-infection and you should be sorted :2thumb:

Thanks for taking the time to post, always good to hear- especially as this is the first I've heard of EI's in beardies 8)


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## Pumpkinman (Mar 26, 2011)

Apparently the treatment is to give them panacur for 5 days, then wait 3 weeks and another 5 days. Then fecal. 
I was told to keep a bare bones viv, throw all wood out. 
I will do spot cleaning and once a week completely wipe down with 100% rubbing alcohol. (ispropranol). Spelled wrong.


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