# Really Lethargic/unresponsive dart frogs



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

My two tincs have been acting really weird. They're just standing there, out in the open. They literally dont move when I open the tank, and i've even gone to the lengths of softly poking them with a leaf... no result. One of them has started lifting his right front leg up and down and opening his mouth at the same time. I have no idea what they're doing but im getting really worried now, its my first experience with dart frogs and im completely out of my depth. Any ideas what could be going on? They're both sub-adult btw.


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It`s real difficult to know Lee.
Have they been eating okay ? 
What have you been feeding them with ?
How old are they ?
How often have you been spraying the viv ?
What are the viv temps ?
Any chance you could post photo`s as they might give a clue.


Mike


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> It`s real difficult to know Lee.
> Have they been eating okay ?
> What have you been feeding them with ?
> How old are they ?
> ...


I cant tell for sure if they eat ok, I never see them eat but they seem a healthy weight. I think they're juveniles like 1 year old. The viv gets sprayed for 8 or so seconds every 2 hours. The temps in the viv are high low 70s during the day with a night time drop. 

What I think may have happened is that my sister lit the fire in the same room (I had already agreed with parents that the fire in that room wouldnt be lit, to keep the temps stable) and even though the temp didnt really rocket too high, i think the quick increase might have affected the frogs. I quickly put the fire out so hopefully if it is the fire that caused it they'll come round soon.

This is him a few weeks ago








and today, notice the different body posture. He was standing like this constantly










He let me get soo close to him without even moving










Dunno whats going on with his toes here










Hand waving










This is blurry but this is his tank mate, standing in a weird position as well. Same symptoms with him except he was moving a little


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

Just checked them now, one is hiding away in the leaf litter so im happy with her, thats normal behaviour. The other is still standing out in the relative open, in a weird body position. It reminds me of a frog thats trying to make it self look big. Standing up on its legs to make it seem bigger.


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I take it you`ve only had these a very short time.
I`m going to take a stab in the dark here as it`s difficult with photo`s to be very accurate.
Correct me if I`m wrong.
Body length is about 1 inch/25-30mm.
What are you feeding them on ? Hydei or Mels ?


Mike


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> I take it you`ve only had these a very short time.
> I`m going to take a stab in the dark here as it`s difficult with photo`s to be very accurate.
> Correct me if I`m wrong.
> Body length is about 1 inch/25-30mm.
> ...


Yeah, Ive only had them maybe 3 months at most. I feed them a mixture of both, they dont seem to like the Hydei as much so i mainly feed mels. Body length like you said is around 1 inch.


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Lee what was the fire fueled with? I'm just curious if it was coal that fumes might just be a player in what your seeing. Lee we run a coal /woodburner down stairs,our frogroom being upstairs,i've never had a problem,but it's somewhat different than maybe having a fire and frogs in the same room.I'm unsure mate what's going on here but it seems a bit strange that this ties in with the fire being lit?

good luck 

stu


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Lee what was the fire fueled with? I'm just curious if it was coal that fumes might just be a player in what your seeing. Lee we run a coal /woodburner down stairs,our frogroom being upstairs,i've never had a problem,but it's somewhat different than maybe having a fire and frogs in the same room.I'm unsure mate what's going on here but it seems a bit strange that this ties in with the fire being lit?
> 
> good luck
> 
> stu


The fire thing is just speculation but its the only thing thats changed in their environment. Its lit with logs so no coal fumes. They seem to be getting more responsive as time goes on, still standing in what seems to me like a weird posture, but as i have no experience it could just be something i've not yet seen. They now hop around when i get really close but they arent moving too much as far as I can tell. Will continue to monitor them and see what happens

for all I know the body position could just be a territorial thing, shedding, whatever... I just dont have a clue and cant find any info on the web

cheers for all your help guys


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Lee.
They are as I suspected just froglets.
I was thinking they`re about 4 months old maybe 5.
They are a bit undersize for their age.
You can see one of my froglets below at 3 months old and how it has a bit more meat on it`s legs and belly.
Maybe they are struggling with the Hydei so I think it would be worth concentrating on the Mels for now.
Maybe chuck in plenty of springtails to give them a constant source of food to pick at.
Recently I was in touch with someone who thought he was feeding his frogs enough, but he made one little mistake, he didn`t allow for them getting larger and didn`t increase the amount of food for them.
An easy mistake to make.
I meant to say earlier, why are you misting so much?
3 times a day should be enough.
Remember, the viv must be humid, NOT wet.
So I would cut back on the misting and just keep a check on the dampness of the viv.


Mike


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> Hi Lee.
> They are as I suspected just froglets.
> I was thinking they`re about 4 months old maybe 5.
> They are a bit undersize for their age.
> ...



Ok I always thought they might be struggling eating but they are definitely underweight. I've got some pea aphids on the way and can chuck in more springtails. I'll swap over to pure mels in terms of fruit flies. Do you think this issue could be caused by a lack of food though? I imagine if they were hungry they'd be darting all over the place looking for food. I'll switch their food over asap and get them fattened up asap though regardless


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The best thing you could do Lee is to try and watch them eating when you feed them.
Put a little in and see how they respond and try to get an idea of how much they are taking.
It is possible your not giving them enough, so you could try putting in a little extra and then take note of how many you find still wandering about in the viv afterwards.
Unlike fish they won`t eat till they burst so will leave flies alone when they`ve had enough.
So just keep a careful watch on them and you might see whats happening.

Mike


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

putting them into a quarantine tank today.Only slight improvements in their movements and they are not eating at all, despite literally being about 5cm away from an apple slice with 50 odd mels on it. So moving them to keep an eye on them and hopefully the smaller tank will coax them into eating.


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hmmm that's not so good Lee.
Hopefully they`ll come around for you, keep us updated.


Mike


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Lee,we haven't reared many azzies but my experience is these are very much on the small side for their age. I'd also say that Mike's (it is a cit isn't it mike?) citronella is plausibly a much slower growing morph,so I feel it's very possible that these guys haven't been getting enough grub for a while. Buddy I have always found tincs demanding,I call it tricky,but damn they need food when they are growing sustained consistant supplies. 

Lee again this might be nowt to do with you I don't know where they came from ,how old when bought ,by my limited experience of azeureus is in 3 or 4 months they can be a goodly size maybe twice what yours are maybe more!!

Dude I don't do blame we have a problem sod blame lets ponder whats happened:2thumb: we have a possible problem with the fire maybe they got too hot and that's affected them,but they were no where near the size they should or rather could be for their age anyway,so lets go right back to the start and walk through everything,to try and find anything. to falicitate this a set of questions mate,for you to answer,please.

Can you tell me everything that went into that viv?
how long was it set before frogs went in?
what QT did you do?
how old were the frogs when purchased how big,how much growth since they have been with you ,how long have they been with you?
usual temp fluctuations day to night disregard the fire issue for the mo.?
Feeding regime each and every detail as much as possible mate really detail this and include vit regime aswell?


Lee I've found tincs the only frog that I struggle with on a QT tub,I have found tincs to be seriously sensitive to a move I or rather WE pummel young tincs with food. 

We used to have a wonderful guy posting here occassionally who did tincs seriously unfortunatley I'm told he has left our hobby. He, and I quote, called tincs grazers,not great hunters. within his words are some serious wisdom for me. Tincs are probably our most stunted dart in captivity they are quoted as a great beginners frog and they are,but man they need food if the beginner doesn't provide this level of sustained nutrition then the frog gets too little to grow properly.


I'm digging for many possibilities such as: is the viv contaminated in some way,have these frogs not been getting enough grub from the off. I'm digging for the QT because of two fold reasons first up did you get something for free.... a worm a parasite who knows when you got them? if QT was done with all the fecals and testing you will have an answer.Lee I don't do full bore QT no judgement here but if you did you'll rule some things out if not we are in the dark simple as,we can't rule out a parasite or other illness !!

Second the move away from a viv back to QT is to prove what exactly? Lee if your viv has issues ,it's the best move to make. If the viv is utterly right
then I'd guess you have just added stress to what ever really IS going on. 

Mate I'm really at a loss I know how an azzie can be grown on what size it can reach in a given time frame,but I don't know if that is the right way or the wrong way to rear an azzie. That said they got big with that fast growth start , conversely I see a lot of frogs that don't make the size they should,but I don't know what exactly causes that either,man, I have thoughts though!!

I dunno bro all I want is those frogs right and you not worrying anymore,my replies will probably slower than I'd like Lee,please forgive so little time,I'd hope others might jump on your answers and maybe find something in these questions to help get things back on track.
take care mate

Stu


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Stu


Sod blame you say :bash: Im almost certain I'm to blame here, as much as it tears at me to admit it.

Ok the tank.

Almost all the stuff I bought (including the frogs) were from dartfrog.co.uk. 3 broms, a few pieces of driftwood, all the usual tank decorations. Moss I did take from outside, in my garden which is very wild. I dont think theres anything wrong with the moss though, i use it in all my tanks. Substrate was the dendrosoil stuff from dartfrog, I let this sit for like a month to get established in the tank. Once it was done I allowed it like 3 weeks or so before getting the frogs. I admit I didn't QT them, considering who I bought from it just didnt even occur to me to QT then. Amateur move I know :bash:

The frogs when I got them I think were around 3 months or so. In terms of growth I saw pretty little growth whatsoever, but I've had them for like 2 months. I NEVER saw them eat. Food would dissapear slowly out of the tank but I never actually saw the frogs eat. They would jump away from the doors into cover and stay there whenever I emptied flies in. Temps were around mid/low 70s during the day and mid-high 60s at night. I would feed every other day, probably like 50 flies at a time. But like previously said I have no idea how much each frog ate because theres 3 of them in there and I didnt see a specific frog ever eat. Food was vanishing so I assumed someone was eating them.

I moved them to the QT tub because I thought that maybe if they wernt up to chasing food i'd put them in a tank where the food cant hide from them, so they would hopefully get some more grub into them. Safe to say it hasnt worked. One of them actually hasnt moved, and the other is, like you say, stressed out.

Mate I want the exact same things, it feels horrible to know that these tiny little fellas are in my care and are struggling. Times like these that make me wonder if im even capable to keep them. I just want to get them sorted to be honest mate but its not looking good at this moment

dont worry about the slow replies, cheers for all your help mate you've been a legend


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The last thing we want Lee is you blaming yourself when NONE of us knows what is wrong.
It might just be a sick frog or two, and yes they get sick just like we do.
You have them in a smaller container now so it`s a chance to keep a closer watch on them.
So pile those springtails in there so they have plenty food to pick on and drop in some Mels for them to feed on.
First of all there was no need to quarantine your frogs so you`ve done nothing wrong there. Why quarantine them when they`ve come from the same source and are going into a viv with no other frogs in it ?
From what you`ve already said you don`t seem to have done anything wrong with the viv.
An important point you`ve mentioned is how much you fed them which I think I touched on earlier.
50 flies every other day is not enough food, especially for growing froglets and as I said it`s a common mistake.
I feed my frogs every day and they might get that each depending on what foods available at the time.
Get rid of the self doubt as it`s not going to do you any good.
Don`t let this little episode get you down as it happens to a lot more people than will own up to it.


Mike


----------



## MSID (May 13, 2010)

I have to agree, don't blame yourself. you are doing everything you can think of. I would imagine that most people who have kept a few species have had times when they have had things go wrong and not known why.

Just a thought, feeding on alternative days would mean a good amount of time between dusting the flies and them getting eaten, I suppose this would mean the flies had cleaned of the supplements. It might be an idea to make sure anything they do eat is well supplemented.

The important thing is to try to get them eating, have the aphids arrived? If so are they eating them? 

Mark


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

There`s something in part of your message there Mark that makes me think.
You mention the flies having the powder cleaned off them.
How many times have you seen flies in a viv stripped clean of powder and the frogs ignore them.
Yet when you add fresh flies with fresh powder they get stuck in.
I`ve often wondered if in fact they get used to the powder and then refuse flies without it.


Mike


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

MSID said:


> The important thing is to try to get them eating, have the aphids arrived? If so are they eating them?
> 
> Mark


They've arrived and i'll be trying them out tomorrow. Lots of mels in there at the moment. I was thinking that maybe like you said the flies are cleaning off the supplement so this could be cause a calcium deficiency thats caused them to go off their food? I dont know tbh.


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Lee,we all have to learn,we ALL make mistakes,me too mate the guy that never made a mistake never did nuffin,or is let's say less than honest. The fact that you are asking for help and trying to do everything possible to get things right is utterly admirable bro,lets get your head up a bit in this sad time.I'd be you if this happened to my first frogs mate,it could have, you did nowt different to me,let's just say I got lucky you didn't , that's it bro no more blame.

The brit dart hobby barely QT's mate, you have no one advising you on why QT can be important again you own no blame here,lets bury that now bro. 

Lee I touched on QT and me personally struggling with this species. I do a base QT normally, fundamentally I keep new frogs as isolated as possible for around 3 months in a tub and watch 'em like a ruddy hawk!!!

Tincs in a tub can be a mare bro: not so long into the hobby I got some macheto,they went into a tub for QT viv was built and ready for 'em,but they got QT first. The one was fine the other constantly climber the walls ,slow but sure what I thought then was he(now I think she) lost condition and weight,we threw food at them,but my simple conclusion was the frog was expending so much energy on trying to be somewhere else I couldn't replace that level of need. I felt my only option was to abandon Qt and bung 'em in viv. We did and yup I still have both frogs but I still fight with that guy on occsion, as I feel it's a girl and tinc girls can be somewhat bitchy to each other.But i'm utterly sure if I hadn't trusted my guts and made that move she wouldn't be here now.

Ok let's answer that question why QT when you are putting frogs in a clean uncontaminated viv, with no other frogs in there,the reasons are thus,oh before I go there let it be known the next tincs I bought had no QT they went in the viv and I took that chance,knowing what the fallout could be. Maybe You don't so i'm going to go through it for you. 

When ever where ever one buy's a frog from,me ,a shop another breeder it matters not Qt can give you knowledge of various problems to rule out. First up is the simple one is my viv contaminated with something? look if they have spent 3 months in your or my care doing ok and you or me plonk 'em in a viv and they go downhill,simply we have a what's wrong with the viv senario to look at. It's happened to me mate with histrionica I bloody bred. I did nowt different to the other god knows how many vivs built and bamm it all went pear shaped,see why you carry no blame mate.OK those frogs didn't get QT I bred 'em,but if they had of been from another source and I'd plonked them in viv after no QT I wouldn't know if the frogs were ill or the viv was a right off. So simply a base QT gives you a chance to know if the viv is ok or not,and by plonking them in viv straight off one is making that choice that if something is wrong with the frogs...not the viv (obvioulsy you'll have no clue) then if the frogs have got say a nasty worm like hooks for example then one is prepared to dismantle a perfectly good viv for nothing because one has contaminated it..past tense

Some yanks do this very thorough QT involving testing,first up they get plonked in a tub minimal set up.frogs get swabbed for RV and Bd and also a round of fecals. Negatives from the swabs give us reassurance ...NOT PROOF that said frogs are not carrying the above pathogens ,which have the potential to wipe out a collection. the fecals again do not give us 100% proof that the frog isn't carrying worms or another parasite,but if something is found then it can be treated,if nowt is encountered then two weeks later a second round of fecals is done again if nowt is encountered a third set of fecals is done after another couple of weeks and bob's ya uncle frogs are said to be clean. If something is found the clock get's set back to the beginning a treatment for said finding is implimented after which the frogs get moved to a new QT and the whole thing runs again until frogs are clear

Lee why don't i do this full bore QT,well darts have evolved with parasites for eons,parasites don't wanna kill their host that nails them too,we aren't even completely sure if some parasites might be beneficial to the frogs so i'm unsure that cleaning a frog of all these beasties is actually the best tactic,it's desparately complicated mate. mind if I did full bore QT(I have done some tests for BD and RV I'd at least know what my frogs might be carrying. Looking at a happy unstressed fat frog tells us nowt you can see happy fat frogs in the wild riddled with parasites so parasites aren't the be all i'm sure stress is massive though. 

There ya go mate that's why or why not to QT it evaluates risk and gives you a way of knowing if the viv is messed up or not.

Lee let's get back to your guys,get something with big leaves in that qt set up,try to make them feel secure dude plenty of leaf litter a couple o coco huts,just in case same sex and don't wan't to hang together (i said bitches huh:lol2 have the coco's a little out in the open,ha there is a reason. I know you are not seeing them feed ,and yeah i know tincs are big frogs,but they are seriously small food specialists,it's volume mate grazing not brief hunt stop sit it's on and on and on ,if the food is there. I want you to try plonking springtails daily on those huts,springs in the ll just disappear man,spring on a coco have to work it out a while. If you have any ff larvea try these bro,get an ff culture seal the lid for a while watch it bro now turning ya back here or you'll kill the culture. the maggots will go up looking for air,then simply harvest,lots more fat in ff maggot,they might just go for them if they do you'll be getting more in than a ff at this time. 

Lee I'm this sad mad bastard that talks to frogs, I vary from this lunatic having fun wanting to make folks laugh to this incredibly serious guy on livestock,there is a child in all this that kid talked to animals he still does. It's utter madness on one level,but that flip side of of years of watching just what that simple stockmans banter can do for the relationship between man and beastie makes me wonder (only ocsasionally I'm still gonna laugh at this and take the mick out of me) is I want you to spend time talking to them while you are feeding. Tincs respond Lee.they like us shaz is doing this now with our 'cause I'm grafting my butt off. I'm scratching bro every stupid thing I can bung ya .

buddy aphid really good,hope here!! go easy on the dust on these mate they are sticky:whistling2:

vit's you didn't give me the details yet bro ,or i've been a dummy,which ever way matters not:lol2: can you tell me more please?

Bro I'm utterly insanely knackered apologies if you have to read a couple of times ,it's incredibly important to me you don't loose heart we have to learn bro and make mistakes.I don't really see I can find any mistake here anyway but I want ya to know dart guys watch each others backs a bit and anything you might have missed is something we all could.

Oh bro bung a shed load of DW or fast grey iso in those subs the babies might tempt them ha and the big un's

Finally if you can get some fecals done pal labs worth a try,if they have got something messing with them be worth knowing what huh? I can't see anything in the viv build but as above who knows. Possible not enough food but that shouldn't stop them feeding possible heat fall out fumes hopefully not,but so far and taking into account I don't know vit regime parasite might be worth a look,seems the logical place to look 

Lee so difficult all this not easy to rule things out I think the main thing is to try and find food they might take which will buy time

good luck bro sorry long ramble 

Stu


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Lee,we all have to learn,we ALL make mistakes,me too mate the guy that never made a mistake never did nuffin,or is let's say less than honest. The fact that you are asking for help and trying to do everything possible to get things right is utterly admirable bro,lets get your head up a bit in this sad time.I'd be you if this happened to my first frogs mate,it could have, you did nowt different to me,let's just say I got lucky you didn't , that's it bro no more blame.
> 
> The brit dart hobby barely QT's mate, you have no one advising you on why QT can be important again you own no blame here,lets bury that now bro.
> 
> ...


In regards to the supplements i gave calcium or a multivitamin powder every other feed. Not sure how much of it actually went into them though lol. Ive got them in my living room now (bit warmer during the night) and I think ive seen some improvements. I saw atleast a few of the aphids get wolfed down as i dropped them in anyway haha


----------



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

HforHERP said:


> In regards to the supplements i gave calcium or a multivitamin powder every other feed. Not sure how much of it actually went into them though lol. Ive got them in my living room now (bit warmer during the night) and I think ive seen some improvements. I saw atleast a few of the aphids get wolfed down as i dropped them in anyway haha


Ahh that's brill mate,all the luck in the world mate but i'm hoping a corner has been turned:2thumb:

I'm a sod am I not:lol2: can I have more specifics on the vit dusts please what brands please ? 

Mate we all are never sure how much vits are frogs get,you are not alone there,flies start grooming it off the minute they have chance, I think it's impossible to evaluate,that's why so many of us use a base dust that is designed for a daily feed
good luck
Stu


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

Bad news. Got home from work today to find them both dead. Devastated. Thought they were really on the road home when they started eating again. Upset but determined to not let this happen again.

Thanks for all the sound advice you gave guys, its really appreciated. Live and learn I guess.

:bash:


----------



## MSID (May 13, 2010)

Sorry to hear this. As you say live and learn. 
Mark


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sorry to hear that Lee.
But take heart from the fact you had them start eating again.
Unfortunately we`ll never really know what happened, but as Mark says we do live and learn, we`ve all been there.
Keep us updated on what you do next, type of frog, how they`re getting on etc, and don`t be afraid to ask questions on the way.


Mike


----------



## HforHERP (Feb 12, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> Sorry to hear that Lee.
> But take heart from the fact you had them start eating again.
> Unfortunately we`ll never really know what happened, but as Mark says we do live and learn, we`ve all been there.
> Keep us updated on what you do next, type of frog, how they`re getting on etc, and don`t be afraid to ask questions on the way.
> ...


I think im going to take a look at my setup, I dont think its too bad but maybe I need to find a way of keeping temps higher during the night, and buy established adults haha. Will defo get more dart frogs, like you guys said I cant let one bad experience put me off these awesome animals


----------



## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Lee, post a couple of photo`s showing your viv and maybe we can advise if anything doesn`t look right.
But, I`m going to refer back to what I said previously that it is just possible you were not feeding them enough.
As I said it`s such an easy mistake to make and catches a few new keepers out.
I`ll refer to something which happened recently with no names mentioned.
I had someone come onto me asking about his frogs as he was going on holiday and was worried about losing them as he needed them properly misted and fed while he was away.
If I remember right he had lost one frog and was worried about the others.
When I saw photo`s his frogs were under weight and looking thin.
When I spoke to him about his feeding it turned out that he was told to feed them X amount of flies every other day, which he did.
As they started to grow he continued to feed X amount of flies every other day, but he didn`t allow for them growing and needing more food.
Anyway I asked him to greatly increase the amount he was feeding and asked him to feed them every day.
To cut a long story short he went on holiday and lost no frogs and he now has some fat healthy frogs which have now started breeding for him.
This same story has been played out several time to me in the last year or two.
Chuck the food in the viv. Make sure they have plenty, especially froglets. Cut back once you see how much they are actually eating until you end up with only a few flies running loose.
To me this is more important, Feed EVERY day, and then you can miss the odd day here and there.
But like I said post pics of your viv and we can have a look before you start ripping it apart.


Mike


----------

