# Bitches Fighting HELP!



## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

Hi All,

Im after some advice  

I have a 3yr old unspayed Jack Russell and my Mum and Dad have a 3 yr old Spaniel who was spayed last year.

They normally get on fine, However for the past 6 Months they have been fighting on and off, This has been for so many different reasons that its hard to pinpoint it to one..... Firstly it was if Izzy (JR) had any toys then Maggie(spa) would want it and bully her for it... Then they was having growls at each other over food so they are now fed seperate... Last night they had a huge fight over nothing at all! Izzy jumped off the sofa and Maggie just went for her and again resulted in a huge fight. 

They both get walked morning and night, And as my mum and dad are home all day they are kept well entertianed! 

Basically mum has now said that unless they stop Izzy has to go  

Also we have a 6yr old collie cross Dog aswell, He keeps out of the fighting bless him but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I honestly dont know where to start  I really dont want to have to get rid of my Izzy Dog but at the end of the day its mum and dads house and I have to respect there wishes I guess  

Does anyone have any ideas on what it could be? 

Thanks
Becca


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Spaying Izzy will remove any hormonal issues which would be a good idea.
Who starts it and what triggers have you seen?

I would remove toys and bones and supervise all time with such
Are they crate trained? When you can not supervise then keep them split


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

theyre just trying to sort out the pecking order, alot of people think its just males that do this but females are just as bad if not worse, id defo get 1 of them prefereably the jack russel spayed, the problem is 1 has to accept the other as top dog or the fighting will continue, have you had them from pups together?


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> Spaying Izzy will remove any hormonal issues which would be a good idea.
> Who starts it and what triggers have you seen?
> 
> I would remove toys and bones and supervise all time with such
> Are they crate trained? When you can not supervise then keep them split


I thought that Spaying Izzy would be a good idea so she is hopefully going to be done in a few weeks (need to wait till pay day) 

Toys and Bones have been removed after the first time they fought over them, They are not crate trained no. 

Triggers have been so mixed, As I say it started with the toys which we removed, Then Maggie bit Izzy when she come in from a walk once ( no reason at all Maggie just run over to her and bit her! ) Izzy jumped off the sofa yesterday and again Maggie bit her. They used to growl over food but as I say we stopped feeding together. They used to be really close and still are at times which is why I just dont understand it!


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

paulrimmer69 said:


> theyre just trying to sort out the pecking order, alot of people think its just males that do this but females are just as bad if not worse, id defo get 1 of them prefereably the jack russel spayed, the problem is 1 has to accept the other as top dog or the fighting will continue, have you had them from pups together?


Maggie has already been spayed. Izzy is my dog and lived with me until I moved home 2 years ago but even when she was living with me my Mum used to have her while I was at work so they have pratically been together since they was pups.

Thanks everyone for your help 
x


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I know ts probably not the anser you want but having a look for a professionl dog trainer/behaviourist in your area would be a good idea. These people sort these problems out for a living so should be able to help.: victory:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Each one of them is trying to become top bitch in the pack, you and your parents need to establish yourself higher up in the pack, as at the moment it sounds like you are below them, they is a few things you can do to sort this out. i would recommend reading Cesar Millan web page to start of with as you need to learn how to be Calm and assertive Welcome to Cesar Millan's Official Web Site

then you need to do a few things to become top dog, and with a JR it might take a while, 



you need to step in when they fight you do this by making a shhhh kind of noise stepping forward and standing between them, every time one makes a start for the other repeat the shhh and push her away from the other.
the walk- dogs are pack animals and need to be walked at least 45mins a day it is very important that you start the walk with the dogs calm and not jumping around, wait for them to calm down before you leave the house, leaving the house the dogs should not go out the door before you, you are the pack leader you go first.
feeding- feed the dogs after you have eaten, also feed the dogs at the same time, as the pack leader eats fist then the rest of the pack
I am no cesar Millan but if you search him on google it will bring up loads of clips and he can explain it better than me. but I follow his ways and I have 7 dogs mainly bitches as only have one dog, and I have no fights as I am the top dog.

Good Luck
Clare

EDIT TO ADD: at 3years old spaying won't make much differnce to the JR behaviour it will stop the seasons, but it wont stop the behaviour A dog’s basic personality is formed more by environment and genetics than by sex hormones, so sterilization will not change your dog’s basic personality, make your dog sluggish or affect its natural instinct to protect the pack.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

The words Cesar Millan is usually seen as a swear word in the dog community. Allot of people are not happy with his forms of training and see some as being cruel. His methods should be used with caution.

To be honest the only way your going to sort this is by getting a behaviourist or dog trainer in to help, your vet should be able to recomend someone who should be able to help you. Very few people would be able to sort this kind of problem by themselves.

The main problem is bitches hold grudges and mean business when its with another bitch, so this needs to be sorted out asap before it cant be undone, and thats if it hasnt gone too far already.

Also please dont ever leave them alone together at all.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> The words Cesar Millan is usually seen as a swear word in the dog community. Allot of people are not happy with his forms of training and see some as being cruel. His methods should be used with caution.


Really I amazed as I have never heard a bad thing said about him but its the same as anything no one ever agrees, but i found his methods are very similar to what we did in canine behaviour at college.


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your help

Claire, Thank you I shall look that up in detail when I get home from work.. I must admit that I am now feeling to blame as I have indeed spoilt My Izzy and what she wants she gets :blush: So yes I have bought this on myself I can see that. Thank you again

Also as stated they are never left alone unattended.

Thanks Again

Becca


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> The words Cesar Millan is usually seen as a swear word in the dog community. Allot of people are not happy with his forms of training and see some as being cruel. His methods should be used with caution.


Can you elaborate on this???

Iv not seen anything i would consider cruel or how anyone would see it as cruel. Maybe iv not seen it all!!

And i know how things on here can sound, so, im not argueing with you or anything like that, just very interested to know as personally i thought he was a bit of a legend!


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

rakpeterson said:


> Can you elaborate on this???
> 
> Iv not seen anything i would consider cruel or how anyone would see it as cruel. Maybe iv not seen it all!!
> 
> And i know how things on here can sound, so, im not argueing with you or anything like that, just very interested to know as personally i thought he was a bit of a legend!


hee hee me to much better than some of the behaviourist I have seen, but as I said not everyone agrees with others methods personal choice ect ect ect


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Yes i totally agree with martha.................to some he is a legened but to others a royal pain in the rear 


i watched a few of his programmes...............and wasnt impressed at all really.................

also alot of his methods are illegal over here 

such as the shock collars and such


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> Yes i totally agree with martha.................to some he is a legened but to others a royal pain in the rear
> 
> 
> i watched a few of his programmes...............and wasnt impressed at all really.................
> ...


Shock collars are not illegal over here.... its one of them things that no one will ever agree on.

But really work on the pack leader thing, as you will find it helps I have helped a few of my friends with problems with dogs and most have been solved by becoming pack leader.
Clare


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

They are going to be soon tho i think, Wales has banned them (or is in the process of doing so) so likely we will follow suit soon.

I havent seen him use those collars although im not argueing that he doesnt. Iv just always seen him acheive amazing results in amazingly short periods of time


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

try removing the bitch that starts as soon as she does ...put her in diff room away from the other dog and your family she should soon learn that her behaviour is not acceptable and that you are the boss and pack leader and not her


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ceasar Millan is an a-hole! He uses choke chains & pinch collars on dogs! He is too hands-on!

Here is a pic of a pinch collar, for those who do not know what one is!









I have seen an episode of his programme where one was used on a Jack Russell Terrier. The poor dog leapt away & screamed with pain!


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

rakpeterson said:


> Iv just always seen him acheive amazing results in amazingly short periods of time


The magic of television.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

The best dog trainer I have seen is Victoria Stilwell. 
Her website is www.victoriastilwell.com


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## Gerry4292 (Apr 25, 2008)

As much as people go on about who the best dog trainer is,will not help this situation.
We had a very similar problem a few months back and we had to rehome one of our bitches before one killed the other.Sometimes its the only way.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Gerry4292 said:


> As much as people go on about who the best dog trainer is,will not help this situation.
> We had a very similar problem a few months back and we had to rehome one of our bitches before one killed the other.Sometimes its the only way.


You're right.
In house bitch fighting is nigh on impossible to sort out. Most cases end up in a rehome.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

It sounds like your bitches had sorted out the pecking order and you the humans have interfered and changed it so they are having to constantly fix what you are undoing.

Don't spay anyone simply watch who eats first and who walks through do ways first who surrenders toys first and then make sure you treat that one slightly more VIP than the other by encouraging this behaviour when you hand out treats and toys and at dinner time.

Your problem should resolve itself instantly.

Marina


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Here's a useful link for you. It may help you to understand the issue. I know lots of people disagree with me when I denounce the whole dominant/alpha/pack leader thing and this site explains it quite nicely.
Lee Charles Kelley: Is Your Dog Dominant, or Just Feeling Anxious?


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## loobylou (Nov 18, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> It sounds like your bitches had sorted out the pecking order and you the humans have interfered and changed it so they are having to constantly fix what you are undoing.
> 
> Don't spay anyone simply watch who eats first and who walks through do ways first who surrenders toys first and then make sure you treat that one slightly more VIP than the other by encouraging this behaviour when you hand out treats and toys and at dinner time.
> 
> ...


I agree with the advice given here. If you watch them closely it should be fairly easy to pick up who is top the pecking order.
I also have to say that in-house bitch fighting can be difficult to sort out and fights between bitches can be so ferocious,its shocking.


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Evie said:


> Here's a useful link for you. It may help you to understand the issue. I know lots of people disagree with me when I denounce the whole dominant/alpha/pack leader thing and this site explains it quite nicely.
> Lee Charles Kelley: Is Your Dog Dominant, or Just Feeling Anxious?



that is a very interesting concept and one that i am unsure where i stand. more reading needed!


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

i have 1 dog and 2 bitches only one has been speyed ....if one even growls at the other for whatever reason then she is removed and in doing so knows she has done wrong ....its worth a try becca


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> It sounds like your bitches had sorted out the pecking order and you the humans have interfered and changed it so they are having to constantly fix what you are undoing.
> 
> Don't spay anyone simply watch who eats first and who walks through do ways first who surrenders toys first and then make sure you treat that one slightly more VIP than the other by encouraging this behaviour when you hand out treats and toys and at dinner time.
> 
> ...



yep i agree with this! we had four dogs at one point, and they sorted themselves out pecking order wise, the biggest dog was not the boss, he was second after our medium sized dog, then the terriers where third and fourth, the bitch coming last! it took her a while to learn her place but she got there in the end, bless her. 

I also agree that Ceaser Milan is an arse, I don't understand why people think he's a good trainer! Give me Dog Borstal or Victoria Stilwell any day :2thumb:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

mask-of-sanity said:


> i have 1 dog and 2 bitches only one has been speyed ....if one even growls at the other for whatever reason then she is removed and in doing so knows she has done wrong ....its worth a try becca


 
i see what you are doing but your just prolonging the it will happen.............your stopping it which just makes the offending bitch even crosser at the other cos she is in trouble with you now 


i have never stepped into my dogs putting each other in places unless i felt i had to.............thats why my pack work so well together as people will tell you they instantly know who my deputy is when they meet them :lol2:

by stopping them puttin each other inline your just cheesing them right off an will never establish who is deputy


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Evie said:


> You're right.
> In house bitch fighting is nigh on impossible to sort out. Most cases end up in a rehome.


 i remember having this conversation before, my two gsd who been together years very peacefully then suddenly began to hate each other and fought constantly and one had to be rehomed, i was told that that sort of thing dosnt happen in a proper pack situation , How wrong they were.....and i quite agree with Evie..


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

denny2 said:


> i remember having this conversation before, my two gsd who been together years very peacefully then suddenly began to hate each other and fought constantly and one had to be rehomed, i was told that that sort of thing dosnt happen in a proper pack situation , How wrong they were.....and i quite agree with Evie..


 
It more than definately does hun an bitches are terrible for it thats probs why they got the name bitches : victory:


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> i see what you are doing but your just prolonging the it will happen.............your stopping it which just makes the offending bitch even crosser at the other cos she is in trouble with you now
> 
> 
> i have never stepped into my dogs putting each other in places unless i felt i had to.............thats why my pack work so well together as people will tell you they instantly know who my deputy is when they meet them :lol2:
> ...


i understand what your saying and agree to a point it only happens on the odd occasion and thats usually if my lurcher is on my bed and the spanial jumps on to then the lurcher will have a growl ...she is then removed from my bed and put out of the room once the others are on the bed she is allowed back on it and she soon settles down ....with her its a jealousy thing over me which i wont have ...i have never had a fight between them its all just noise but i am the boss and they all know that


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

mask-of-sanity said:


> i understand what your saying and agree to a point it only happens on the odd occasion and thats usually if my lurcher is on my bed and the spanial jumps on to then the lurcher will have a growl ...she is then removed from my bed and put out of the room once the others are on the bed she is allowed back on it and she soon settles down ....with her its a jealousy thing over me which i wont have ...i have never had a fight between them its all just noise but i am the boss and they all know that


 
ahhhh springers you mean the liver an white mini rotties LOL 

not surprising then ha ha 

my springer thinks she is 10 men at times :lol2:


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> ahhhh springers you mean the liver an white mini rotties LOL
> 
> not surprising then ha ha
> 
> my springer thinks she is 10 men at times :lol2:


yep she is a springer collie cross but a woss :lol2: scared of small dogs but a mummys girl she doesnt mind sharing me but the lurcher sometimes has other ideas


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

mask-of-sanity said:


> yep she is a springer collie cross but a woss :lol2: scared of small dogs but a mummys girl she doesnt mind sharing me but the lurcher sometimes has other ideas


 
LOL yeah i know what you mean mine at homeis a complete pain thinks she is 10 men soon as we walk out the gate she is the biggest wuss in the world :lol2::lol2:


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

If you do try to watch and see which bitch is dominant, be careful that you get the right one!

I have a bull terrier bitch and a collie cross bitch, who I found as a stray.

Both are spayed and get along well, but recently I added a new puppy, a male bull terrier and found out that the bull terrier bitch, who I previously assumed was dominant was actually the bottom of my pack ( I have an 8 year old bull terrier male too), she tries to put the puppy in his place at the bottom by growling and telling him off.
The collie cross has no such behaviour and is my puppy's best friend.

I thought that dogs who rolled on their backs were submissive but have since been told that actually this is often the reverse.

Since realising I got the roles all wrong, I have noticed that behaviour among my pack now makes more sense...

Good luck, and persevere...

Lorraine


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

pixie_bex said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Im after some advice
> 
> ...


 Spay the JR for a start.Aecondly, what is pack heirachy like? Are your parents pack leaders or the normal indulgent dog owners? If the latter, they may have to toughen up, see who is top bitch and then repect the pack heirachy. If the top one is your JR then their dog will have to come second in all things and I can't see that happening can you? 
If they onyl get walked twice a day I think maybe the JR has too much energy and needs more. What is their diet (including treats) as this may also have a bearing on it. It may ebd up that you have to rehome your dog or find somewhere else to live in order to keep her.But there are things you can try first. However there is no easy fix.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> The words Cesar Millan is usually seen as a swear word in the dog community.


:bash: a lot of the 'dog community' are up themselves and ultra PC and believe in 'ignore the bad, reward the good' training method which is utter nonsense and far removed from anything that happens within a pack of dogs. I think Cesar Milan does a bleedy fantastic job. He is doing what I have done for the last 25 years.




> Allot of people are not happy with his forms of training and see some as being cruel. His methods should be used with caution.


and a lot of the people who think he is cruel haven't watched his programmes and belong to the 'awww, what a pwetty fwuffy doggy oggie, oooh didda widdle poopoo on the new carpet then?' brigade.



> To be honest the only way your going to sort this is by getting a behaviourist or dog trainer in to help, your vet should be able to recomend someone who should be able to help you. Very few people would be able to sort this kind of problem by themselves.


If the behaviourists belong to the fwuffy bunny brigade, I don't think it can be sorted out either. If the trainer understands a bit about pack heirachy and the dog owners are prepared to reinforce their position in the pack, then perhaps it might be able to be sorted.



> The main problem is bitches hold grudges and mean business when its with another bitch, so this needs to be sorted out asap before it cant be undone, and thats if it hasnt gone too far already.


 I agree with you there. I explain to people that 2 males fighting is a bit like 2 18 year old lads with too much to drink. A lot of noise, threats,wild punches, very little damage and in the morning all forgotten and bezzie mates again. Bitch fights will end up with one dead if it can't be stopped wuickly and they can never be put together again ever.



> Also please dont ever leave them alone together at all.


 absolutely.
I think a lot of problems occur through doting owners with little real authority and no respect from their dogs, plus their sense of fair play which leads them to "treat them both the same". It doesn't work like that. Dogs have no sense of fair play, there always has to be a heairachy and the one at the bottom doesn't feel hard done by at all, it feels secure as long as the leader is strong and the leader should always be the human. Tha's why I can have a pack of 18 together and maintain harmony, just as Cesar has a huge pack and has harmony.
I'd love to see some of the bunny huggers manage a pack of dogs with as much success.How can they ignore the bad (fighting) and reward the good (not fighting)?:lol2:


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

Thank you for a lot of your advice people,

I believe I already replied to Claires post and confessed that I have indeed pampered Izzy and my parents have done the same with Maggie. I am not saying this is the right thing to have done and I am now asking for help, I would appericate that sarcasim and unhelpfullness is left out of the post thanks.

I have a couple of days off work so I have bought Izzy to stay with a mate with me for a few days until Myself and my parents decide what we are going to do. 

Following a lot of Claires advice I have already started being more dominant with Izzy ... I have been good so far and ignored the RSPCA eyes and the whines when I have made her get off the sofa or fed her after me. She is a very fast learner and I am confident that I can turn this around with the help of a trainer. I have printed a lot of this off to discuss with my parents when I get home. 

Thanks again guys, It really is a heartbreaking thought that I may have to rehome my pooch.

Becca


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> :bash: a lot of the 'dog community' are up themselves and ultra PC and believe in 'ignore the bad, reward the good' training method which is utter nonsense and far removed from anything that happens within a pack of dogs. I think Cesar Milan does a bleedy fantastic job. He is doing what I have done for the last 25 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I must agree with you here, I actually think Ceasar Milan makes a lot of sense and if you remember the only episode I saw him use a shock collar was the one he tought Daddy to not go near venomous snakes.
I would also use a shock collar to teach my dogs to avoid any snakes if it meant they would not die!
He showed how they can be used responsibly and effectively when a quick message is needed as in the case of rattle snakes.
I am def not a fluffy bunny dog owner, you cant be with my breed, or you will have huge problems. You must be a pack leader at all times.

Dogs really do look to you to make sure they are behaving correctly when you are pack leader and any in pack fighting is only allowed if the pack leader allows it.
A dog is not a child and should be treated accordingly, they need very clear boundries not to be constantly indulged.
Remember you need them more than they need a pink fluffy parka coat with princess written in glitter on it!

Lorraine


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

i'm not a member of the molly coddling doggie brigade but i still think that Ceasar Milan is and arse, and I have watched many episodes of his show, just to clarify that............some of the things he says make sense, but i just don't like the methods he uses to get results. : victory:


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Personally I only agree with positive training methods for dogs.

I live amonst my dogs, they are part of my family, I have no need to show them who is boss and who is the leader. They are nearly all rescue dogs who have suffered some form of cruelty by humans. They are perfectly fine and as well behaved as they can be after everything they have been through.

I cant agree with Cesar Milan as he uses forms of negative training, which I dont agree with.

As for shock collars.. please! Try putting one around your neck on high and shocking yourself a few times and see how that feels.


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

i agree Martha, and can you imagine the stress his methods would cause a dog that came from a rescue and had been mistreated?


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

see this is the problem that I am having with regards to training ( I have a number for someone that I am going to call tomorrow ) .... I dont want Izzy to be fearfull of me....... What I guess I am having trouble with is cuddles and stuff... Can I still be the dominate leader but also cuddle up on the sofa with her of a night, Does this make sense?? 

Today I have been far more stern with her than I would normally be and she is reacting well but its this fuss thing I just cant work out!


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

well does she wait to be invited to come for a cuddle? if not then make her wait until you give her permission. of course you can give her love, it doesn't mean you have to start ignoring her, that wouldn't be fair on either of you! is she obedient? if she isn't then that means she doesn't see you as the boss, what about your mum and dad's dog, is she obedient? 

A good book to read is "the dog listener. (learning the language of your best friend)" by Jan Fennell, you can get it from google. : victory:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Electric shock collars should be banned! End of!

You can still give cuddles & love, just on your terms, when you want them, not on your dogs terms, etc


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> Personally I only agree with positive training methods for dogs.
> 
> I live amonst my dogs, they are part of my family, I have no need to show them who is boss and who is the leader. They are nearly all rescue dogs who have suffered some form of cruelty by humans. They are perfectly fine and as well behaved as they can be after everything they have been through.
> 
> ...


I too have rescue dogs who have suffered great cruelty and I am a strong leader. It makes them secure. You seem to be under the impression that enforcing my dominance involves cruelty of some kind which it doesn't.
You also seem unaware that pack heirachy is normal and instinctive in dogs.
Could you please be specific about what negative training methods you know cesar Milan uses and why you think them cruel?
I have used a shock collar and yes I tried it on myself first. It gives a warning first, did you know that? And the shock is no greater than I get off the electric fence. Oh don't tell me, you think those are cruel too?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

pixie_bex said:


> see this is the problem that I am having with regards to training ( I have a number for someone that I am going to call tomorrow ) .... I dont want Izzy to be fearfull of me....... What I guess I am having trouble with is cuddles and stuff... Can I still be the dominate leader but also cuddle up on the sofa with her of a night, Does this make sense??
> 
> Today I have been far more stern with her than I would normally be and she is reacting well but its this fuss thing I just cant work out!


 Of course you can be pack leader and still cuddle. Being pack leader has got nothing to do with being stern or mean or yelling at the dog. Sadly this is a common misconception which shows that people just don't understand the concept of a pack leader.


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

Most people keep only one dog and so will find that they have few problems if any.
If you then choose to add to that one dog you are then going into the territory of building a pack.
A pack exists among domesticated dogs whether you like it or not and so to ensure harmonious living it helps to understand the dynamics of what it means to live in a pack.
It doesnt mean you have to use cruel or brutal training methods or even raise a hand, it is far more subtle than that.
It doesnt mean you cant give cuddles either, come round my house any evening and you will find me curled up with 1, 2, 3 or all 4 of my dogs on the sofa. But it is on my terms and they know who is the leader round here.
One of my dogs is a rescue but that doesnt mean she isnt the top of the dog pack, over all my bull terriers, as she is.
But she still looks to me for the guidance and reassurance she needs from the pack leader, she takes her cues from me.

I am not saying that I would choose to use all of the training methods seen on TV with all the different programmes on now, I pick and choose whats best for me and my pack.
But is it not strange that there are more and more programmes and books about dog behaviour and problems than ever before, years ago it was not really heard of, but then again years ago most dogs were not dressed and carried around in designer bags either...
Wonder if there's a connection?????

Lorraine


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

I did try the collar on myself when I was considering getting one for a very very stubborn lab he was starting to get dangerous and getting to the point the owners didn't dare let him of the lead, they give a warning beep before given a shock, that I agree with fenwoman was less of a shock than a electric fence. I would never put anything on a dogs without trying it myself.

I hope you get it all sorted out
Clare


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

eightsnake said:


> Most people keep only one dog and so will find that they have few problems if any.
> If you then choose to add to that one dog you are then going into the territory of building a pack.
> A pack exists among domesticated dogs whether you like it or not and so to ensure harmonious living it helps to understand the dynamics of what it means to live in a pack.
> It doesnt mean you have to use cruel or brutal training methods or even raise a hand, it is far more subtle than that.
> ...


 If my chihuahuas were dressed up it would be in welly boots and an old coat with a baler twine belt. If you popped them in your handbag to carry around, they'd shit in it hehe.But that's because they are country dogs who live in a stable pack of 18 with a stong pack leader who they trust to defend and protect the pack and provide ample food. That is what a strong pack leader does and in return for this, they give respect and obedience (most of the time).
Being a strong leader makes nervy dogs feel secure, scared dogs fell unafraid and abused dogs get a sense of being in a stable, fair, predictable home where their every need will be met and where they don't have to worry about anything.
Being a strong pack leader means mainly body language and subtlety. Like when my mate Jackie came round for coffee earlier on, she knows the rules. She walks in, talking to me and completely ignores my dogs although she is itching to make a fuss of them. We have coffee an when we go out to put the kettle on again, I call the dogs over to the gate and she fusses them for a bit and I send them away again and close the door.
They realise that I have ultimate power over how much attention they get and for how long and when the door is closed, they simply settle down and go back to sleep.
The trouble is that the fluffy bunny brigade don't understand the pack heirachy thing and think that it involves yelling, choking, thumping and being brutal.


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

Can I just point out that its all very easy for apparent experinced people taking the Pee out of the "fluffy bunny brigade" for not understanding pack leadership, Yet they dont seem to willing to share there experince.

I have ordered a couple of books and have to call a trainer back this afternoon as she was in a session when I called.

Thanks again to those that have been helpfull.


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

pixie_bex said:


> Can I just point out that its all very easy for apparent experinced people taking the Pee out of the "fluffy bunny brigade" for not understanding pack leadership, Yet they dont seem to willing to share there experince.
> 
> I have ordered a couple of books and have to call a trainer back this afternoon as she was in a session when I called.
> 
> Thanks again to those that have been helpfull.


Not aimed specifically at you at all so dont think it is....

but alot of these people wont take the advice, and as fenwoman says, are firmly set in the belief that being a pack leader involves harsh and brutal techniques, which it doesnt.


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

rakpeterson said:


> Not aimed specifically at you at all so dont think it is....
> 
> but alot of these people wont take the advice, and as fenwoman says, are firmly set in the belief that being a pack leader involves harsh and brutal techniques, which it doesnt.


thats fine ... HOWEVER, I have come on here cleary stating I need help and advice.... I fully understand what you mean and I havent taken it personally.. I just feel there are far to many people who act like they are superior to others which stops others asking questions and animals end up suffering as a result............... I am in no means saying that Izzy or Maggie are suffering, But can you kinda understand what I mean??


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

pixie_bex said:


> Can I just point out that its all very easy for apparent experinced people taking the Pee out of the "fluffy bunny brigade" for not understanding pack leadership, Yet they dont seem to willing to share there experince.
> 
> I have ordered a couple of books and have to call a trainer back this afternoon as she was in a session when I called.
> 
> Thanks again to those that have been helpfull.


 Pack heirachy cannot be explained in a single post or a couple of posts even hence me often telling people to watch the dog whisperer. People often can't be bothered to read and even if they read, actually visualisig something may be difficult. Watching the programme is useful as it shows what to do if a dog does this and how to handle it if it does that. While I'm not happy about some of the training aids used by Mr Milan, I have seen dramatic results in a short time on dogs which were downright bloody dangerous. Sure it isn't always nice to watch and sure the dog will fight and scream even if it isn't being hurt ( in one case the dog was so savage it was due to be PTS as severak trainers had tried and failed and been bitten badly by it). I would class it almost as a battle which Cesar had to win for the dog's own sake. Needless to say he did win, just as I had to win with a particularly nasty biter once. I neded up with my arms running with blood (my blood) but emerged as the winner and the dog was my devoted admirer from that day on and adored me, worshipped the ground I walked on. So not exactly something which would happen if the methods had been terribly cruel.
The trouble with the fluffy bunny brigade is that their methods work on easy dogs, but give them an adult, out and out savage dog with serious dominance issues and no respect at all for humans, and I'd like to see what the 'praise the good, ignore the bad' methods would do then. I suspect that they'd give up and advise that it be PTS.
It has taken years for the dog to reach this state of disrepect. It cannot be fixed in a day or two and then you all go back to how things were. Heirachy and pack leadership becomes a permanent way of doing things.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

pixie_bex said:


> thats fine ... HOWEVER, I have come on here cleary stating I need help and advice.... I fully understand what you mean and I havent taken it personally.. I just feel there are far to many people who act like they are superior to others which stops others asking questions and animals end up suffering as a result............... I am in no means saying that Izzy or Maggie are suffering, But can you kinda understand what I mean??


 If you want to PM me I would be happy to talk to you and try to talk you through some things which you can put inoto practice, however, it isn't just you and your dog that they need putting into practice with since you live with your parents and another dog. All those living together, 3 humans and 2 dogs, need to be singing from the same hymn sheet and if your parents think that their dog is fine and their way of dealing with her is fine, then nothing is going to work or change the situation.


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

I feel we are getting no where.... You cannot seem to reply to my posts with any helpfull or usefull comments. So I feel it would be best if you kept out of the thread. 

Thank you again to those that have been helpful and sent me in the right directions to get help. 

I will update this once I have spoken to the trainer.

Cheers
Becca


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## groovy chick (Aug 1, 2006)

butterfingersbimbo said:


> A good book to read is "the dog listener. (learning the language of your best friend)" by Jan Fennell, you can get it from google. : victory:


 
I bought this book of ebay last month. Its really really good. You should try and find it. I think mine cost about £4.


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

groovy chick said:


> I bought this book of ebay last month. Its really really good. You should try and find it. I think mine cost about £4.


I ordered it last night so hopefully should be with me tomorrow  

Going to leave them apart (Izzy is staying with a friend at the moment ) Until I have spoken with the trainer and read up more.. 

Fingers crossed

Also - Have just noticed a fine bit of editing done on Fenwomans post... Just to reply to your new post, My parents are also working together with me to make this change and it is not a case that they think there dog has done nothing wrong.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

pixie_bex said:


> I ordered it last night so hopefully should be with me tomorrow
> 
> Going to leave them apart (Izzy is staying with a friend at the moment ) Until I have spoken with the trainer and read up more..
> 
> ...


I have no idea why you are so defensive. You posted on an open forum and I, along with others replied and tried to help as best we could. As for any editing, I may well have thought about another point after I posted and added it on. Nothing sinister I can assure you and the last bit about parents, well how is anyone to know the actual situation, hence my commenting about it. Next tiome you post for help perhaps you could also list the people you want replying and those you don't want to reply, and then put a list of the things you want to hear and don't wish to hear. That way people will know exactly where they stand. Why ask for help if you don't actually want it?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Fenny is actually trying to help you, people need to look past her straight talking posts and see the caring knowledgable(sp) women behind the post:bash: Silly people:whistling2:


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## pixie_bex (Jul 1, 2006)

I refuse to get into an arguement with you, I have taken advice as I asked for it. I find you talk down to people and offer very little advice hence the reason I asked you polietly to stay out of the thread since you was bringing nothing to it.. 

I am going to ask a mod to close this now because I can only seeing it go the same way many threads go.

Thanks again to those that helped.

Becca


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