# Keeping Snakes in China



## white_snake (1 mo ago)

Hello guys, I'll be moving to China for my studies, I'd probably like to stay there in the future due to my girlfriend being Chinese.
However what is worrying me, is that I have found out many snakes are not allowed to be kept in China, due to some animal protection law.
For example all Python snakes are officially banned to be kept, however from what I have found out, some pet shops or sites still sell them illegally.
I've been trying to search, however without success, which snakes are allowed to be kept there. From what I've found out, people are legally keeping corn snakes, king snakes and hognose snakes but I doubt that's the whole list.
If anyone has the experience, or could give me some suggestions, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Thank you!


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

Your university/academic institution should be able to (and should) advise you as to all the relevant laws you'll need to know there. Talk to your student services department.

China has been importing from 100 to about 2000 live Pythonidae (CB, WC and ranched) on commercial use CITES permits each year (and they export very few), so there's apparently a legal market.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Hopefully Thrasops will see this thread.

Not quite sure about this - 'Your university/academic institution should be able to (and should) advise you as to all the relevant laws you'll need to know there.' I would have thought it extremely unlikely.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

Unlikely that a university can't or won't have the resources to advise its students as to the relevant laws they'll need to abide by when those students are enrolled in their programs? Why would that be? 

My undergrad university has a legal clinic that employs an attorney and a few paralegals for student assistance. Their study abroad program offers assistance with travel logistics, connects students to the State Department or foreign embassy for questions, and has professors/academic departments that are a part of certain study abroad programs (including, at my university, profs that studied law in China). Grad advisors tend to have connections that could certainly get such a question answered.

It would certainly be a sensible place to start asking, anyway.


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## white_snake (1 mo ago)

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Hopefully Thrasops will see this thread.
> 
> Not quite sure about this - 'Your university/academic institution should be able to (and should) advise you as to all the relevant laws you'll need to know there.' I would have thought it extremely unlikely.


You are right tbh, it's very unlikely university will have knowledge regarding this, in fact the secretary can't even answer basic questions related to my studies.
Most people aren't going to know which animals are protected or allowed to be kept there.
The problem is that it's related to CITES and other wildlife protection laws that contain even animals that are kept pretty much everywhere such as ball python.
Haven't really found any decent info when searching on chinese websites, there were some ppl that have asked similar questions to mine but they were usually answered by bots, answers such as "you can order a black mamba in pet shop" or "you should start with a beginner snake" so yea.
If anyone here has any experience about the chinese market, it'd be greatly appreciated.
I dont think it would be difficult to find the snakes for sale, nor it would cause me to go to jail, but I see no reason breaking laws and complicating my stay in the country/causing issues to my partner.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

I cannot comment on what the laws exactly are there regarding keeping snakes but I can definitely confirm lots of people keep and sell pet reptiles there - or at least they did until 2020. Turtles in particular are extremely common and popular.

Before 2020 I visited a few times a year, lots of people keep snakes out there and I have seen Royal pythons, Corn snakes, Grey Banded king snakes, American rat snakes and some local species like Red Banded water snakes (_Sinonatrix annularis_) and Bocourt's water snakes (_Subsessor bocourti_) for sale as well. I also remember seeing at least one of the local Sand boas for sale in 2014 (I think it was _Eryx miliaris_). Baby Beauty snakes are quite commonly seen too (adults are used in the food industry).





























There are also huge industrial snake farms that breed local species such as Beauty snakes, Red Banded wolf snakes, King rat snakes, _Gloydius_ vipers and Chinese cobras amongst others for local medicine and the food industry (I do not doubt these are supplemented by wild caught specimens but the scale of the breeding of some of these places would put anything in the West to shame in terms of numbers).

Chinese cities tend to be laid out a bit differently to the West, larger cities tend to be organised into districts with most or all of the shops and markets catering to something being clustered together. So in Beijing there is a huge pet market district where you can find all the pet shops. Many of them sell reptiles, some of them surprisingly exotic (_Gastropholis prasinum_ lizards are commonly sold there for example). You can also buy all the food for snakes there - pet shops sell live local lizards and skinks for the equivalent of 50p to a few pounds, various feeder insects and rodents, live frogs and fish etc.

What is sometimes quite odd is the difference in standards from one shop to the next. One market can have buckets full to the brim of turtles, or dirty tanks full of oversized fish, the next shop might showcase designer bioactive setups with delicate and difficult to keep Agamids displaying and thriving well.












































In 2019 I believe local laws changed making it forbidden to capture _native_ snakes, I am unsure what the exact details are but I have had a few people warn me to be careful whilst I am out herping. I do not know what this means for the pet industry there, and I do not know if the upheaval of the pet markets in the country since 2020 has resulted in their erasure or legislation has changed the way they operate. I am inclined to doubt it to be honest, although perhaps there are fewer wild caught snakes - the pet industry was thriving there so I cannot believe non-native species simply stopped being kept. I did get my Mother-in-Law, (a native Chinese speaker who works in the government), to enquire there about legalities of keeping snakes or exporting them a few years back, but she reached a dead end as nobody really seemed to know or care.

Apologies cannot help with the actual legislation, from what I gather though it is intricate and difficult to fathom even to a native speaker though, and probably varies from city to city, province to province. If anybody would be able to help you it would be Dr Kevin Messenger (Chinaherper on Youtube) or Scott Lupien, who lives in Beijing.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

From the little I could find, all pythons and boas are illegal but are still kept and sold in shops. Other than that there seems to be very little information available on the laws around any pet keeping.


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## Malum Argenteum (5 mo ago)

white_snake said:


> The problem is that it's related to CITES and other wildlife protection laws that contain even animals that are kept pretty much everywhere such as ball python.


Like I mentioned, China imports pythons (which are all CITES listed) for commercial trade. Here are the data on CITES imports of Royals into China during the years 2018-2020. (Records from 2021 likely aren't in the database yet, since they're not due from the parties to CITES until the end of October of the following calendar year, and then need to be uploaded). The fact that the Chinese government allows Royals in on commercial permits suggests that they're legal to sell (and one would then assume legal to possess).














My thought was not that the University secretary would know what Chinese wildlife laws are, of course. I supposed that they would be able to connect you with people who do know. But perhaps academic institutions here are different than where you are.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Malum Argenteum said:


> Like I mentioned, China imports pythons (which are all CITES listed) for commercial trade. Here are the data on CITES imports of Royals into China during the years 2018-2020. (Records from 2021 likely aren't in the database yet, since they're not due from the parties to CITES until the end of October of the following calendar year, and then need to be uploaded). The fact that the Chinese government allows Royals in on commercial permits suggests that they're legal to sell (and one would then assume legal to possess).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pythons are banned. I wonder if they are destined for the skin trade?
The fact is that China would have to issue I.port permits. If keeping pythons is illegal then they wouldn't issue permits. 
So, either it is the worst enforced law ever, or those pythons are not being imported as pets.


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## white_snake (1 mo ago)

Just have found a snake seller in China.
He sells as long as the snake is not protected - boa, pythons, then it can be kept legally, including venomous snakes.
He's trying to sell me a cobra, that as long as I don't eat it, I can keep it without requesting any permission from the government.
Kinda sus, can anyone confirm this?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

As said already, keeping any python in China is illegal. The relevant Chinese law is the Wild Animal Conservation Law. However it is acknowledged that they are still sold and kept. No reason why you couldn't keep a cobra. 
Very few countries have legal controls on keeping venomous snakes beyond a minimum age


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

white_snake said:


> Just have found a snake seller in China.
> He sells as long as the snake is not protected - boa, pythons, then it can be kept legally, including venomous snakes.
> He's trying to sell me a cobra, that as long as I don't eat it, I can keep it without requesting any permission from the government.
> Kinda sus, can anyone confirm this?


Be _very very _careful, it is easy to find sellers who will offer native snakes there.
If they hear you are after them they will target you and offer you all kinds of things.
They will even offer to export illegally and assure you it is legal.
They offer locally protected species smuggled from the Mainland to Hong Kong where they are exported mixed in with boxes of toys and goods.
I know several people in both Europe and the USA that should have known better that have fallen for this.
Some of them even have received snakes in various states of ill health, mixed in with boxes of toys.
A few years ago I was looking into exporting from China to the UK and gave it up as it is a convoluted process if it is even possible at all - most people I have spoken to tell me it isn't and mainland China only exports to institutions at very great expense (I cannot verify this as I do not speak Mandarin but my family who are native speakers have also been unable to find out so I gave it up). I did make a thread about it on this forum at the time.

However there are lots of smugglers advertising and operating on Facebook via VPN and are easy to liaise with on Whatsapp and WeChat, and will openly tell you how they do business. They targeted me as they for some reason thought because I had a Chinese wife and went to China a lot I'd want illegal stuff. I have even been in a furniture market, my family have idly mentioned I keep snakes and a vendor told me he had a snake for sale if I wanted it (he showed me images on his phone, it was a Royal python, he was willing to go home to get it). Obviously I turned it down.

If you saw some of the images they sent of the bottles full of snakes.... shocking. I have spoken to several and asked them what they offer and how they do business (out of curiosity), and it is frankly pretty disgusting once you figure out what they are doing and how they are doing it. They do not hide it at all.
I was sent various images including this one in 2019:

Bottles full of _Orientocoluber _spinalis and various _Gloydius _vipers.










Over the years there have been various imports of various rare species including _Ptyas nigromarginatus_ and _Elaphe davidi _that I have no doubt have been sold this way. A few years ago there was a minor scandal about it on several Facebook sites once people figured out where these snakes were coming from. This is NOT ethical, it does not help the image of the hobby.

There are also lots of farms and restaurants dealing with snakes, some produce 'medicine' or 'snake alcohol' others breed for the restaurant trade. I have no doubt it would not be difficult to blag some from that kind of place, although the really targeted species like cobras, king cobras and Hundred-pacers (_Deinagkistrodon_) are valuable and probably sell for a lot on the black market.

There are pet shops in China, best wait until you are out there and shop around for yourself at the pet markets. I also have a few western friends out there that have caught and kept the odd snake themselves - I _do not know_ if this is legal but nobody out there seems to care either way. Personally I would advise not doing anything that has a possibility of being against the law if you will be out there on visa, you do not want any kind of black mark against you.


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## MrsTim (Aug 20, 2012)

That is really sad picture, weirdly, it affected me more than seeing photos of injured or dead snakes... it's the complete disregard for the snakes lives. It would not be difficult at all to pack them properly and safely, and yet, they can't be bothered.
I guess those were from illegal trade?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

MrsTim said:


> That is really sad picture, weirdly, it affected me more than seeing photos of injured or dead snakes... it's the complete disregard for the snakes lives. It would not be difficult at all to pack them properly and safely, and yet, they can't be bothered.
> I guess those were from illegal trade?


Undoubtedly.
They do not conform to IATA standards so of any were sent like that, the Customs of the receiving cou try would seize the entire shipment.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

MrsTim said:


> That is really sad picture, weirdly, it affected me more than seeing photos of injured or dead snakes... it's the complete disregard for the snakes lives. It would not be difficult at all to pack them properly and safely, and yet, they can't be bothered.
> I guess those were from illegal trade?


Yes it is pretty awful.

These were packed this way to be smuggled from mainland China to Hong Kong. As apparently it is easier to export the animals from Hong Kong (which does export) than the mainland (which either doesn’t or has stringent rules).

I gather the bottles are hidden in cars that go across by , or hidden in crates of other merchandise. When the seller showed me those pics and I realised what I was dealing with I cut communication, although I have seen them still active on a Facebook under different names now and then.


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## white_snake (1 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> As said already, keeping any python in China is illegal. The relevant Chinese law is the Wild Animal Conservation Law. However it is acknowledged that they are still sold and kept. No reason why you couldn't keep a cobra.
> Very few countries have legal controls on keeping venomous snakes beyond a minimum age


Yeah I know about the Pythons, I meant to discuss the venomous snakes. He was offering me a boiga dendrophilia and some cobra, didn't say which one


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

white_snake said:


> Yeah I know about the Pythons, I meant to discuss the venomous snakes. He was offering me a boiga dendrophilia and some cobra, didn't say which one


Do you have experience with snakes and/or dwa experience?

Do take note of what has been said most likely going to scam you good and proper!


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## white_snake (1 mo ago)

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Do you have experience with snakes and/or dwa experience?
> 
> Do take note of what has been said most likely going to scam you good and proper!


Yeah i kept elaphe climacrophora and morelia spilota in the past and I and I'm keeping m. viridis rn.
Wanted to start with boiga dendrophilia as my first venomous snake, I know cobras aren't the best option for my first.
The cobra is beautiful to me, especially the albino/white ones and i'd like to try keeping one in the future, the reason I asked this was because I was surprised I was offered a venomous snake. I dont wanna mess up and get deported just because something like this. I come from country where it's not difficult to keep one, but you need to register it in advance.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

A mangrove snake will only prepare you for keeping mangrove snakes. They are completely different to Cobras!


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## white_snake (1 mo ago)

ian14 said:


> A mangrove snake will only prepare you for keeping mangrove snakes. They are completely different to Cobras!


I know what you mean and I agree with you but what I meant to say is that I would prefer to start with a rear fanged snake, then move to mildly venomous one before getting a cobra just to get my hands and practice on manipulation with this kind of snakes. I know there is big difference in many aspects, the reason I compared these two is because even though there is big difference in the venom and one is rear fanged, it is still considered a venomous and dangerous animal where I live, and the same permission is required as for cobra.
I really like the boiga so that's the main reason besides practicing the manipulation, I wanted my first venomous snake to be Aspidelaps lubricus but I dont know if i can get hands on that in China, but who knows


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

I think its safe to say you have a LONG way to go before even thinking about a cobra.
Rear fanged snakes are venomous.
But they do not behave like a cobra. Cobras are intelligent and reactive snakes. Most snakes are defensive and behave very differently. 
The only way to prepare for keeping a cobra is to get hands on experience under guidance from an experienced keeper of cobras. There is no other way to do it.
Mangroves are not dangerous. They used to be restricted in the UK under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, but we're taken off the list in 2007. There are no confirmed human fatalities from this species.
They are venomous, they are defensive, and also very shy and would rather flee and hide. A cobra, however, will do the opposite.


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