# diablaco blanco ???



## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

wot makes these ???


----------



## takeoffyourcolours (Apr 11, 2009)

mmm....im actually not too sure..but i do love that morph, i suppose another pair of diablo blancos?


----------



## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Arent they a red eyed blazing blizzard ?


----------



## takeoffyourcolours (Apr 11, 2009)

are they? :|


----------



## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

Blizzard Tremper albino and eclipse.
And apparently the "tremper patternless stripe", but how this makes any effect i do not know.
A tremper albino blizzard (aka blazing blizzard) or just a bog standard blizzard is completely patternless anyway.

I think the Super Snow Blazing Blizzard is a much better option if you want white leos with red eyes.


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

sam12345 said:


> I think the Super Snow Blazing Blizzard is a much better option if you want white leos with red eyes.


Definately. Both are homozygous for 3 traits, so no more "difficult" to produce. Hopwever, I think Dbs are going to be cheaper and more readily available.


----------



## mack-bell (May 11, 2009)

From what I heard it can happen often that "Blancos" hatch from DB*DB
That are DB without the real red eyes.

My theory is the following:
Sometimes BB have solid black eyes right? I think the DB'S that hatch without red eyes have these false Eclipse eyes and these are over the Eclipse trait we know from the Raptor.

It also happens very rare that Raptor*Raptor gives Aptor but I think these are also Raptors with maybee 1% Eclipse eye or so.

For the genetic combo, Tremper told me the patternless stripe gen is involed but I don´t belive him.
He would have to proof each single Gecko out to be sure it is a patty stripe and from my question:
"What babies hatch from DB*Raptor or BB" he said "I dunno as I ahven´t done th breeding"
To a guy he sold an expensive "yellow" eyed DB which in most opinions was an damn expensive BB het DB as it didn´t had yellow eyes he wrote he would get Banded Raptors from Breeding DB to Raptor.

THis would mean the standard DB is no Patternless stripe. If you breed a patternless stripe Raptor to another one you get patternless striped ones.

And thats a nother point.
Trempers say HIGH END DB's are pure white. I think these are the low grade ones.

I know that Banana BB (Patternless, BLizzard, Albino) are high light yellowish.
I think the patternless stripe gen could work under the Blizzard gen the same way.
So if this is true, a DB that is yellowish would be a Patternless stripe DB and the white ones only banded or striped n stuff liek that.

But again thats a theory nothin is proofed


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

The patternless in Raptors is not related to the Murphy patternless trait.

I agree though, if a DB has to carry the "Tremper patternless" trait (I have my own feelings on this trait), then each one has to be proven before being classed a DB.

RAPTOR x RAPTOR can produce non patternless offspring, as the patternless in RAPTOR is a line bred polygenetic trait, not simple recessive like Murphy patternless.


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

MrMike said:


> The patternless in Raptors is not related to the Murphy patternless trait.
> 
> I agree though, if a DB has to carry the "Tremper patternless" trait (I have my own feelings on this trait), then each one has to be proven before being classed a DB.
> 
> RAPTOR x RAPTOR can produce non patternless offspring, as the patternless in RAPTOR is a line bred polygenetic trait, not simple recessive like Murphy patternless.


This is one of these ones that's very much in keeping with the RAPTOR arguments that go on between people ....

Plenty of people sell APTORs and RAPTORs that have visible (usually faded to a certain extent) spotting / stripe marking down some or even all of their body. Officially, if they are showing a pattern, they aren't patternless... so does that mean they arent really APTORs or RAPTORs? People will still label them as one or the other.... Beats the heck out of naming them Tremper Albino Partial Reverse Stripe, Partial Patternless... etc. RT will tell you a true RAPTOR should have NO evidence of Reverse stripe at all - His best examples have no visible stripe marking, not even in the tail (usually the last place the reverse stripe trait clings on to).

With DB's, you can get away with this to the extreme - How can you tell with a DB that it's not a Red eyed reverse stripe "under the covers" instead of a RAPTOR that got crossed into the Blizzard lines? Or indeed a Banded RAPTOR or Red eyed Jungle albino, etc? Its not even easy with polygenic traits to prove them out. It could be the case that the animal you pair with the DB is carrying so many of the magic "bits" of the Tremper Patternless trait that when combined with a DB that, without the Blizzardness to cover it, would actually be a Banded RAPTOR, you might still get RAPTOR het Blizzard off spring, simply due to the Banded RAPTOR carrying the one or two remaining bits of the polygenic puzzle that fits together to cause the patternless trait in RAPTORs. If all that makes sense? lol


----------



## mack-bell (May 11, 2009)

I know that the gen is ned the murphy gen but it could act under the Blizzard gen like it or similar.

True Patternless stripe Raptors only produce true paqtternless stripe Raptors when breed to eah other.
Sadly their are many out that or not realy patternless striped.

ANd the Patternless stripe in Raptor is not line bred.

First was Abbarant, out of the mcame the Jungle gen and stripes. COmbination of several stripe gens(not sur I think it was reverse and red stripe) made the Patternless stripe gen. This was the base to the Aptor and unlocked the Eclipse gen.
A real Aptor is always het for the Eclipse gen cause this was the unlocker for the Eclipse eyes.

THis was prooven bye Alberto [email protected] and another private breede in the USA after testing this theory even thought ROn Tremper says no to it.


All in all the DB in my opinion is only a BB Eclipse everything else has to be proofen like the magic MSSRaptor ;-)


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

mack-bell said:


> First was Abbarant, out of the mcame the Jungle gen and stripes. COmbination of several stripe gens(not sur I think it was reverse and red stripe) made the Patternless stripe gen.
> 
> THis was prooven bye Alberto [email protected] and another private breede in the USA after testing this theory even thought ROn Tremper says no to it.


He actually proved it? Or just put forward the theory?


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

forgottenEntity said:


> He actually proved it? Or just put forward the theory?


My sentiments. 

Any links to this information?


----------



## mack-bell (May 11, 2009)

Their was a big thread in geckoforums.net for it.
Matt from A&M wrote their about all their findings and nother guy showed up with his own cb eclipse geckos. It´s a while back I´m not sure If I can find it but I will search if I find it.


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

mack-bell said:


> Their was a big thread in geckoforums.net for it.
> Matt from A&M wrote their about all their findings and nother guy showed up with his own cb eclipse geckos. It´s a while back I´m not sure If I can find it but I will search if I find it.


This would defo be worth a read because....

What I do know / have been told / have read up on....

RT disagrees with the theory because it doesnt work...

Theory put foward was Patty trait in APTOR / RAPTOR is Reverse stripe & A Stripe trait which cancel each other out, producing Patternless, as I understand it?

Problem there is, if you cross out APTOR or RAPTOR examples to Reverse Stripes, Red Stripes, Stripe... what do you get? Next question, if it really is reverse stripe being masked by some form of stripe, why arent reverse stripes far more common out there in the world, given you only need one of the two stripe traits in question to achieve them, rather than the 2 you need to achieve that patternless trait, according to that theory?

If you look at how the RAPTOR trait works today, you get a mixture of quality - ranging from quite highly patterned Leos, showing stripe patterning down the body, faded out from how it would appear if there wasnt some degree of wash-out/"patternlessing" happening... All the way down to absolutely no patterning at all, not even in the tail. RT defines the morph as being patternless - He will tell you that if you spot a stripe going down the tail, it's carrying the reverse stripe trait. He released the morph out to the world before he had isolated out the reverse stripe trait from the patternless trait, as such - some of the first RAPTORs made available still had some patterning on the body. He didnt reach the point where he had completely removed the reverse stripe visibly until 4th gen, if I remember correctly.


----------



## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

thanks for the info on the DB but its all gone off topic now tho


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

shep1979 said:


> thanks for the info on the DB but its all gone off topic now tho


Well, they did tell you but then we all kind of borrowed the thread, given it was on subject for this. Sorry. True definition of a DB is a RAPTOR-Blizzard. Although they aren't always what they are supposed to be 

have a read here... Diablo Blanco - Leopard Geckos


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

mack-bell said:


> Their was a big thread in geckoforums.net for it.
> Matt from A&M wrote their about all their findings and nother guy showed up with his own cb eclipse geckos. It´s a while back I´m not sure If I can find it but I will search if I find it.


I've done a bit of digging....

A&M Gecko
A&M Gecko

Interesting stuff... The only thing I will say is that from what you read there and the pictures below, he's going to have produced RAPTORs with a tail stripe. The very thing RT has been working to try and get rid of. Is it the same genetics and RT's just line bred the best together to produce ones with less and less tail stripe? Could be.... Would be interesting to know if Alberto has done the same thing and managed to rid his of the tail stripe too... if so, fair enough


----------



## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

shep1979 said:


> wot makes these ???


 
diablo blancos can be made from blazing blizzard het raptor to a raptor het blazing blizzard or any of the pairings that involve putting blazing blizzard and raptor genes together, but both adults need to carry the raptor, albino and blizzard genes


----------



## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

This is a really exciting thread lots going on and lots of informative stuff being said, i too am curious on how these are actually made and would like some more info broken down a bit more simple lol related to the raptor theory as i got a bit confused.


----------



## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

NBLADE said:


> diablo blancos can be made from blazing blizzard het raptor to a raptor het blazing blizzard or any of the pairings that involve putting blazing blizzard and raptor genes together, but both adults need to carry the raptor, albino and blizzard genes


So basically you just need a RAPTOR and Blazing Blizzard to acheive this?

Me thinks i have some more leo's to buy now :mf_dribble:


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

To quote the guy....



RT said:


> The “White Devil” is the result of crossing very white Tremper Albino "Blazing" Blizzard (BB) females with our best Raptor male and breeding those double het offspring together. It is not the result of crossing a pure BB with a pure BB and accidentally getting a variant of that morph with all red eyes. No BB has ever been produced with two all red eyes. I also introduced the genes for giant into the *Diablo Blanco* project, so many of these DBs will have above average size. The first pure DB with two all red eyes hatched in May 2006.


----------



## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

messengermatt said:


> So basically you just need a RAPTOR and Blazing Blizzard to acheive this?
> 
> Me thinks i have some more leo's to buy now :mf_dribble:


 
well kind of, a raptor to blazing blizzard will give you hets, you would then have to put those together to get the diablo blancos and even then its only something like 1 in 10 are visual diablo blancos, 
i'm working with them this year, should hopefully have diablo blancos next season


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

messengermatt said:


> This is a really exciting thread lots going on and lots of informative stuff being said, i too am curious on how these are actually made and would like some more info broken down a bit more simple lol related to the raptor theory as i got a bit confused.


DBs are visually Tremper albino blizzard eclipses. The "highest quality" ones should be a crisp white, no yellow on the body with solid ruby red eyes.

Now, the confusion is coming from the fact RT states the "Tremper patternless" trait is in play, same as in RAPTORS. Now, as I'm sure you know, there are varying thoughts on this trait. But, the problem lies that is a DB has to carry this trait, which would be masked by the Blizzard, then each and every DB needs to be test bred before being classed as a DB.

Personally, I think DBs will always be classed as Tremper albino, blizzard eclispes, but the intersting bit is always coming back to the patternless expressed in RAPTOR.


----------



## shep1979 (Feb 24, 2008)

WOW wot a thread i started :lol2: lots of good info


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

messengermatt said:


> So basically you just need a RAPTOR and Blazing Blizzard to acheive this?
> 
> Me thinks i have some more leo's to buy now :mf_dribble:


FIRST.

Talbino eclipse patternless reverse striped X Talbino blizzard = .

Talbino HET Blizzard,Eclipse/Poly'HET JUNGLE,STRIPED,REVERSE STRIPED,PATTERNLESS REVERSE STRIPED,TANGERINE.

THEN.

Talbino HET Blizzard,Eclipse X Talbino HET Blizzard,Eclipse = .

Talbino normal Poss-HET Blizzard,Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse normal Poss-HET Blizzard.
Talbino jungle Poss-HET Blizzard,Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse jungle Poss-HET Blizzard.
Talbino striped Poss-HET Blizzard,Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse striped Poss-HET Blizzard.
Talbiino reverse striped Poss-HET Blizzard,Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse reverse striped Poss-HET Blizzard.
Talbino patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Blizzard,Eclipse.(APTOR).
Talbino eclipse patternless reverse striped Poss-HET Blizzard.(RAPTOR).
Talbino blizzard HET Eclipse.
Talbino eclipse blizzard.:2thumb:.

All offspring Poly'HET JUNGLE,STRIPED,REVERSE STRIPED,PATTERNLESS REVERSE STRIPED,TANGERINE.


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

NBLADE said:


> well kind of, a raptor to blazing blizzard will give you hets, you would then have to put those together to get the diablo blancos and even then its only something like 1 in 10 are visual diablo blancos,
> i'm working with them this year, should hopefully have diablo blancos next season


It's a 1/64 chance, pretty long odds.


----------



## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

MrMike said:


> It's a 1/64 chance, pretty long odds.


 
ahh but i always been lucky when it comes down to genetics :lol2:


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

NBLADE said:


> ahh but i always been lucky when it comes down to genetics :lol2:


Well, fingers crossed. You breeding triple hets?


----------



## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

MrMike said:


> Well, fingers crossed. You breeding triple hets?


 
hope to be soon, been a long process as started with het raptors and blizzards, now have the visuals, to create the triple hets, and also have some triple het juvies that hatched so am hoping next season for a few visual diablo blancos,


----------



## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

As MrM says, 2 X het` parents = 1 in 4 chance visual offspring. As there are 3 recessive genes in play with any triple het Raptor X BB youngster, that`s a 1 in 4 chance to be (for example) Eclipse - then there`s yet another 1 in 4 chance that that particular Eclipse will also be Albino (4 x 4 is 16), and after that the recessive Blizzard also has to come through to make it a DB/Albino Eclipse Blizzard (16 x 4 = 64). All in all - an time consuming, `long winded` morph to make - no wonder they cost a bomb to buy at the beginning!!!! 
It`s also worth bearing in mind that any 1 in 4 chance is just that - a chance, meaning that the results could quite well be an all or nothing situation! Mind you, lady luck has shined down brightly on a few peeps lately - half the fun is the trying, and as the big hand on the lottery points out every Sat afternoon `it could be you!` 

edit - half as that ^ is just me typing out loud - apologies for stating the obv!


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

MrMike said:


> Now, the confusion is coming from the fact RT states the "Tremper patternless" trait is in play, same as in RAPTORS. Now, as I'm sure you know, there are varying thoughts on this trait. But, the problem lies that is a DB has to carry this trait, which would be masked by the Blizzard, then each and every DB needs to be test bred before being classed as a DB.


But you can't prove a DB is expressing the trait you can only prove it's a carryer.

I based my opinion of what a the designer patternless trait is.By the Female used to create the albino form of Aptor in tremper book.And this leo is a patternless reverse striped.A selected bred reverse striped to to weed out the reverse striped.

I don't think breeding a reverse striped to a striped is the result of a Designer patternless-AKA-patternless reverse striped.Infact i've seen some cases where thay've attracked in that i mean a Striped Reverse striped. The leo's express both the striped down the backbone(NOT dorsal stripe) and the stripes on the flanks. 

This is the mother ship to RAPTOR/APTOR.So to speek.


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> But you can't prove a DB is expressing the trait you can only prove it's a carryer.


Very true. My point was a Leo can't be classed as a Tremper albino "Tremper patternless" blizzard eclipse without test breeding. I think I will still call DBs Talbino blizzard eclipses.


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Very true. My point was a Leo can't be classed as a Tremper albino "Tremper patternless" blizzard eclipse without test breeding. I think I will still call DBs Talbino blizzard eclipses.


Which, makes the 1/64 odds (you treated tremper patty as a simple recessive?) suddenly become 1/16....

Being honest, how many people are ever going to bother to test breed out a DB to prove it's a patty carrier before labelling the white thing they've produced with red eyes as a "DB"? I am sure plenty of people have and will continue to just label up anything that comes out as white with red eyes from crossing a bunch of albino het blizzard & eclipses against one another and call them DB's.... Which will prove a right royal pain to anyone who hopes to use them to breed RAPTORs from afterwards, given only a very small number of those white with red eyed offspring will be carrying the full tremper patty trait to pass on.


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

forgottenEntity said:


> Which, makes the 1/64 odds (you treated tremper patty as a simple recessive?) suddenly become 1/16....


No, 1/64 is the odds of 2 triple het DB (blizzard, eclipse and talbino) have visual DB offspring. Unless I have misunderstood something?



forgottenEntity said:


> Being honest, how many people are ever going to bother to test breed out a DB to prove it's a patty carrier before labelling the white thing they've produced with red eyes as a "DB"? I am sure plenty of people have and will continue to just label up anything that comes out as white with red eyes from crossing a bunch of albino het blizzard & eclipses against one another and call them DB's.... Which will prove a right royal pain to anyone who hopes to use them to breed RAPTORs from afterwards, given only a very small number of those white with red eyed offspring will be carrying the full tremper patty trait to pass on.


Exactly, noone will. If you want to breed raptors, buy raptors imo.


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

MrMike said:


> No, 1/64 is the odds of 2 triple het DB (blizzard, eclipse and talbino) have visual DB offspring. Unless I have misunderstood something?


Ah, was at cross-purposes with you - I thought we were doing Blazing Blizzard x RAPTOR in the first gen so, all offspring are **** albino...

so your 1/64 counted tremper patty in a simple recessive manner.


----------



## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

forgottenEntity said:


> Ah, was at cross-purposes with you - I thought we were doing Blazing Blizzard x RAPTOR in the first gen so, all offspring are **** albino...
> 
> so your 1/64 counted tremper patty in a simple recessive manner.


Ahh, I see. BB x RAPTOR offspring gives much better odds.


----------



## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

MrMike said:


> I think I will still call DBs Talbino blizzard eclipses.


Or you could also go with Tremper Ruby eyed blazzing blizzard.If you want a trade name.


----------



## mack-bell (May 11, 2009)

forgottenEntity said:


> Which, makes the 1/64 odds (you treated tremper patty as a simple recessive?) suddenly become 1/16....
> 
> Being honest, how many people are ever going to bother to test breed out a DB to prove it's a patty carrier before labelling the white thing they've produced with red eyes as a "DB"? I am sure plenty of people have and will continue to just label up anything that comes out as white with red eyes from crossing a bunch of albino het blizzard & eclipses against one another and call them DB's.... Which will prove a right royal pain to anyone who hopes to use them to breed RAPTORs from afterwards, given only a very small number of those white with red eyed offspring will be carrying the full tremper patty trait to pass on.



Not Even Tremper himself proved it out as he told a guy that Raptor*DB give Banded Raptors 



gazz said:


> Or you could also go with Tremper Ruby eyed blazzing blizzard.If you want a trade name.



I Think DB is okay for the Combomorph so I´ll call it that way cause their are already Eclipse BB out that are no DB AND if I remember right their already was a BB with red eyes before the DB but don´t nail me on it I got this info from a small US breeder friend of mine.

BTW I couldn´t find Matts post in geckoforums.net ... sry I can´t provide that post it was a real good one...


----------



## forgottenEntity (Sep 7, 2008)

mack-bell said:


> BTW I couldn´t find Matts post in geckoforums.net ... sry I can´t provide that post it was a real good one...


I kind of did the job for you if you go back a page or so - you'll find a couple of links on a post I did back to A&M - where he talks about what he's found. Makes interesting reading


----------

