# CHE's and shedding issues .. Just a Myth ?



## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

As some of you may know I've recently switched the heating from CHE's to mats in all the vivariums that house my nine Royals. Since doing so five of them have gone into a shedding cycle. This is all perfectly normal, based on their normal cycle, and isn't a result of the change. But as an observation all five had complete shed the previous time, when the vivs were heated by either 100w compact or 150w trough ceramics. Also the last time they all shed was August / September when the weather was warmer and dryer than the wet winter days of late where humidity inside or out has been a lot higher.

So is this old saying that "you're likely to have shedding issues with CHEs as they dry the air out too much" just an old wives tale ? 

Most of the stuck shed has been on the head and top 1/3rd down the spine. The rest of the old skin came off in bits on each occasion. Now of course it could all be a coincidence, I mean all of the snakes have on occasion required an assistance in shedding (mainly the top of the head to ensure eyecaps are removed), but its normally been just the odd one, not all five, and most of them as mentioned shed fine last time around. I'll see what happens with the remaining four when they shed to see if they too need assistance or shed completely without any help.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Having used both basking lamps and CHEs, I haven't had any difference with shedding using either heater. I don't see how a CHE can dry out the air more than a basking lamp. They both warm the air! And from above. It seems an odd thought that one dries out the air more than the other if they are both providing the same temperature. The air is being heated to the same level so surely would have the same effect on humidity?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Ian, my thinking is that as the air in the viv is more or less around the ambient room temperature, as the mat doesn't heat the air in the same way a lamp or CHE will, it will hold less moisture. But looking at my weather station it's stating that its 19.6c and 78% humidity in the lounge, so the air in the vivs must be around the same. The only major difference is as you say, ceramics and lamps heat form above, but then I wouldn't have thought that would have any bearing on adhesion of the old skin to the new, especially as the snakes completely removed the skin form the rest of the body. If it were something to do with top down heat (or the lack of) then I would have expected the old skin to be stuck all the way down the spine, separated mid body with a clean underside.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

CHEs and basking bulbs such as halogens emit completely different types of heat, that warm the air and their surroundings differently. Both can be useful but it is generally accepted that halogen basking bulbs are superior for creating basking zones. CHEs can be used to supplement ambient temperatures but are less effective for basking.

CHE's warm the air far more than halogen basking bulbs as the type of heat they radiate is far infra-red (IR-C). This is good at warming ambient temperatures including the air around the bulbs but not at penetrating surfaces efficiently. It actually does dry the air more rapidly than near infrared and is used in drying some foods ('drying power').

Halogen basking bulbs emit near infra-red (IR-A) which does not warm the air anywhere near as much and instead focuses down onto the surface beneath it and penetrates tissue more effectively and deeply. IR-a also has physiological benefits (not just to reptiles) and has been found to allow photobiomodulation - which allow tissue stimulation, regeneration and healing, and improves ATP production in mitochondria. This last is important as reptiles have approximately half as many mitochondria as endothermic animals so this type of heat may be quite important for energy production for them and may be one reason captive reptiles often seem so lethargic compared to wild ones. This is also why near infra-red is used to assist medical wound healing.

Here are some FLIR images taken by Dr Jonathan Gordon Howard (AKA Beardievet) showing the difference.

CHE - only warms the air beneath it.










Halogen - strongly warms the surface beneath it. Note the difference in wattage too!










Two types of heater side by side showing the difference at the basking surface. heat emitter on left. Halogen on right.










He decided to have some fun after letting both lamps heat up by placing a 1 litre bag of isotonic intravenous fluids (same salt content as the body) under each lamp and taking some images over 1 hour. I’m not quite sure if the plastic stops certain IR wavelengths but obviously the one under the halogen heats more rapidly and deeply.




























The upshot of this is that both types of heating serve different purposes - IR-a/ near infrared is better at warming tissue, CHEs are better at warming air. For tropical reptiles like Royal pythons I would use a low wattage CHE to supplement the heat and maintain night temperatures (although I would still offer a halogen during the day as well to provide a basking surface and greater thermal gradient).

For temperate reptiles, a CHE is completely unnecessary and inferior to halogen basking lamps - you only have to look at the following FLIR images to see how the sunlight warms reptiles much more like halogen bulbs do than CHEs, and the reptiles are far warmer than the environment around them because of the way this type of heat works. (IR-a forms the largest component of natural sunlight, and there is virtually no IR-c in the sun's rays).

Green lizard (_Lacerta bilineata_)










Adder (_Vipera berus_)










With regards to the question of 'do CHEs cause poor sheds?' - they may do. Apart from the far IR-c emitted by CHEs having higher drying power than the near IR-a emitted by halogens, the fact far IR-c does not penetrate living tissue as effectively as IR-a means reptiles beneath them take longer to fully warm up. So their deep tissue may still be cool but if they are getting too close to the heater, their skin/ surface may be getting too hot. With small reptiles that warm up rapidly either way, this is _probably _not as much of a problem but it certainly can result in burns in animals like tortoises and thicker-bodied constrictors, that are still trying to warm their innermost tissues even when the surface of their shell/ skin might be too hot. This might have knock-on effect on causing shedding problems, even if a burn cannot be seen.

Then again, if they are affecting sheds, this is probably because they are being used wrong. Most people I have seen using them use far higher wattage than is necessary to gently warm the air. Low wattage CHEs (I use 20w and 40w) combined with a humid hide should not cause any issues.


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

That was a great bit of info to share Francis. 
Coming back to Malc’s experiment, would you comment on the comparison of CHEs to heat mats?

IR-c that CHEs produce, is also what heat mats produce, though at a more gentle temperature?

IR-c does not come from the sun’s rays, but does it not irradiate from surfaces such as rocks, concrete, asphalt roads, as a secondary form of heat?

Personally, I usually get drier, itchy skin this time of the year; usually purported to be switching on of central heating (IR-C?), and drying out the air, but perhaps could be other factors, such as bigger temperature extremes (outside environment compared to indoors?), or reduced daylight exposure….. effecting blood circulation or skin emollient excretions.……

I suppose the heat mat would generate higher contact temperatures than might be received ‘basking’ under a CHE?

Thoughts…..? 😁


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

Swindinian said:


> That was a great bit of info to share Francis.
> Coming back to Malc’s experiment, would you comment on the comparison of CHEs to heat mats?
> 
> IR-c that CHEs produce, is also what heat mats produce, though at a more gentle temperature?
> ...


Here is a FLIR image of the kind of heat a heat mat produces.










Again, a heat mat is a different type of heater good for a different thing. Yes they produce IR-C radiation and are great for providing localised bottom heat (or side heat) and some do radiate a certain amount of heat into flesh but what they don't do very well at all is warm up the air around them. Then again, as they warm up a surface, some heat does radiate from that surface it just is not very efficient!

This does not mean they are useless, it just means they are good for other things than basking or raising the ambient temperatures - creating a localised warm surface at night, for example. And they certainly can be excellent as supplementary sources of heat or sources of night 'bottom heat' approximating what a reptile might find on a road or piece of flat rock and allowing it to bask thigmothermically.

They do have limitations though. A reptile will not be able to get under one 'as is'. They can get wet from spillages or humid substrate or large amounts of urine (large snakes and chelonians produce a LOT of liquid). You can get thermal blockages if anything heavy (like a fat bodied snake) rests on top of them too long. And they can potentially burn animals for the same reason CHEs can - they will raise the animal's skin temperature without raising its core tissue effectively so can cause skin burns (this should be less of an issue for smaller reptiles).

As with halogens and CHEs - each has their place. For many temperate or subtropical animals form desert or rocky areas I provide a 5w heat mat with a thermostat probe overnight. Just a small warm area a small snake can curl up on. Oddly, I rarely see them being used! But the option is there. Plus they are a good source of 'belly heat' - although again a good halogen directed onto a flat stone makes this redundant as the stone will warm up and ALSO radiate heat! However in the confines of a terrarium, a flat piece of slate or tile cools down at night far more rapidly than rock or road does in the wild so a small heat mat can provide a constant source of gentle warmth. I cannot stress enough how important thermostats are though!

One thing that a few people such as myself, Sam Perrett and Roman Muryn have been doing this last few years is attaching a low wattage mat to a ceramic tile with a thermostat probe and covering this in sand, grout and PVA to make a 'fake hot rock.' This vastly improves the heat mat - you can stick it under a halogen and it will get hot and the thermostat will keep the mat off. Then at night when the light goes off the mat will warm up and simulate a bit of sun-warmed rock. It also has the advantage that a snake or lizard can get UNDER it. Which they might want to do (think of slow worms and grass snakes beneath a bit of sun-warmed tin!).



Swindinian said:


> Personally, I usually get drier, itchy skin this time of the year; usually purported to be switching on of central heating (IR-C?), and drying out the air, but perhaps could be other factors, such as bigger temperature extremes (outside environment compared to indoors?), or reduced daylight exposure….. effecting blood circulation or skin emollient excretions.……
> 
> I suppose the heat mat would generate higher contact temperatures than might be received ‘basking’ under a CHE?
> 
> Thoughts…..? 😁


I also get drier, itchier skin this time of year... but as you say, there could be many reasons for it.
It is colder, so I wear thicker sweaters and jumpers which make my skin itch.
I dress up more at night and use a thick duvet which can make me sweat a lot.
I wear more layers of clothes outside.
The air conditioner is turned up at work which dries the air.
The cold affects blood circulation.
Could be loads of reasons - I could also say my skin often itches more in the summer too because I sunburn whilst snorkelling (this would be down to UV damage though).

Lots of food for thought.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Interesting discussion. I think we are still searching for the holy grail in reptile heating, that produces the correct IR wavelengths, warms the air, provides a concentrated hot spot and doesn't cost the earth to run.

Granted overhead heating that also warms the surface of the substrate is more natural, and just using mats for a royal may be confusing for the snake as it's getting heat from below but not from above, which could result in burns especially if the thermostat probe is reading the colder air temperature and the mat is been driven constantly (hence why I fix the probe to the middle of one panel of the mat).

At the moment I've been monitoring the room temperature rather than the air temperature in the vivs, and yesterday was the first really cold day with outside temps dropping to 3.2c which translated to an inside temperature of 17.2c. The controller is keeping all mats at a set temperature of 33c, and currently other than the boa which is still heated by a 150w trough CHE all the Royals are on the mats. Using an IR thermometer the body temp (side and spine) over my largest Royal averages 27c, their undersides match that of the heatmat give or take a degree. The snakes do thermoregulate but not as frequently as under CHEs, they are still eating, but are also less active. 

What is frustrating is whilst I know mats are not really suitable for Royals, for all the reasons Francis mentions, I have no choice given the current cost of energy and my personal circumstances. It's either this or sell up completely.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Well over the past few weeks humidity in the vivs have been around 60-75% based on the same ambient humidity in the room (the snow and cold snap meant we kept the windows closed). I've had three snakes undergo a shed in the past week, two royals and my boa. The boa is heated with a 150w trough ceramic, the Royals vis 28w heat mats. The Boa shed complete, the two royals shed in bits and needed assistance (soaking in warm water for 30 minutes). Looking back through the records, there would appear to be a direct correlation between the time I switched to mats and getting poor shedding results. Now granted I can't really compare the boa's shedding to a Royal, there could be lots of reasons why the boa shed fine and complete, but it does seem strange that the sheds have become bitty and incomplete since using mats. I also looked at the frequency of shedding of one of the Royals for 2022. When on CHE's the periods were 64, 74 and 85 days apart. Since switching to mats it's now 44, 48 and just 25 days between sheds. Nothing else has changed. Same substrate, same frequency of feeding (14 days) same lighting. Coincidence or could there be a relationship between these events ?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Just to add, for any new comers to the hobby this is one of the reasons I keep records... it provides data to base the analysis. I use Reptiware, but regardless of which software package is used, or even a manual system such as pen and a notepad, keeping records of feeds, shedding's, and anything related to reptile husbandry is a really essential part of the hobby IMO


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