# question about culling mice



## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

I've just starting keeping feeder mice and I have a few youngsters that are about the right size for my new little BRB.

I only have the 3 snakes and the biggest one is a rat feeder anyway, so the quantity of mice I'll be keeping doesn't justify setting up a CO2 chamber. I intend just breaking the necks of a few each week.

My question is what is the quickest and least messy method of cervical dislocation. I've done it once before when I rescued a mouse that had been mauled by the cat, but I pulled too hard and its head came right off.

I''ve seen the "pencil" method mentioned - could somebody explain this please?

Thanks.


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## Hants-snakes (Jul 1, 2009)

*The Swing Method*

I think anything other (co2 excluded) than holding it by its tail and swinging it HARD against a immovable object (I use the top of the chest freezer)so its head contacts and absorbs the full impact is cruel. Pinning down a mouse or rat takes time and unnecessary stress. The 'swing method' is very quick and 100% successful when mastered.


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## SnakingSprout (Jul 23, 2009)

I like the way you've even named the method, in a kind, nice, happy sort of way :lol2:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Swing method is the best IMO
base of the tail and a good quick hard hit on the edge of a table or plant pot etc etc
somthing hard but not sharp edged.


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## gecko geek (Aug 2, 2009)

could you nt just put the head in mouse trap


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## Replika (Dec 28, 2005)

I'm a swinger too!!!:whistling2:


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## barneyboa (Jul 24, 2008)

*killing*

we bought a electric rat killer for twenty pounds its safe easy and no mess


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## Carol (Aug 2, 2007)

I get it by the base of the tail put a screwdriver on it's neck and push down on the neck and pull the tail at the same time, very fast, do not forget it will jump a bit, BUT it is dead.

This is the best way I have had no mess.

Carol


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Carol said:


> I get it by the base of the tail put a screwdriver on it's neck and push down on the neck and pull the tail at the same time, very fast, do not forget it will jump a bit, BUT it is dead.
> 
> This is the best way I have had no mess.
> 
> Carol


yes, I tried that in the end and it worked. But the mice were only little, so not much force is required. I now have some multis which are of course a lot bigger, so I think I will have to look into the CO2 method. I don't fancy trying to pin down something the size of a small rat while i get a screwdriver across its neck.


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## mikemike118 (Aug 15, 2009)

*try freezer*

stick it in the freezer in a ice cream tub, sealed and stick it in the freezer, this will cause the rodent to curl up and then go to sleep...

this is great because it causes no mess! 

one slight problem is to thaw it out, but this aint hard!, just keep in warm place (not too warm or it will stink like mad!



most cheapest way probs


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

mikemike118 said:


> stick it in the freezer in a ice cream tub, sealed and stick it in the freezer, this will cause the rodent to curl up and then go to sleep...
> 
> this is great because it causes no mess!


And causes lots of suffering and is illegal 
Please don't use this method.

Natrix


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

garlicpickle said:


> I've just starting keeping feeder mice and I have a few youngsters that are about the right size for my new little BRB.
> 
> I only have the 3 snakes and the biggest one is a rat feeder anyway, so the quantity of mice I'll be keeping doesn't justify setting up a CO2 chamber. I intend just breaking the necks of a few each week.
> 
> ...


To be honest I would pop along to Halfords and buy a CO2 gas canister and regulator then buy a small RUB. 
Make two holes in the RUB lid, feed the hose into one and leave the other open as an exhaust. 
For less than £30. you will have an effective gas chamber.

The bit below is from something I'm working on that may be of use to you re other recognised killing methods.

Natrix

*Recommended methods of slaughtering rodents*
*Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, schedule 1*
As already mentioned above, under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 there is a selection of acceptable humane slaughter methods under schedule 1 that can be used (with a little basic training) by the home producer to slaughter rodents for his/her own personal use. The following three methods are the most appropriate for home use;
*1) Dislocation of the neck*
Dislocation of the neck appropriate for rodents up to 500 grams, Rabbits up to 1kg and birds up to 3kg.
The aim should be to carry out a swift, complete dislocation of the neck at the level of cervical vertebrae 1 to 3. This causes massive injury to the brain stem and spinal chord with immediate loss of consciousness. Neck dislocation is a straightforward method of killing small mammals and birds. 
Not really a suitable method for use on very young rodents due to their small size but a very efficient method for use with sub adult animals and above but can become time-consuming and monotonous when large numbers of animals need to be slaughtered. 
*2) Concussion of the brain* 
Concussion of the brain by striking the cranium: appropriate for rodents and rabbits up to 1kg and birds up to 250 grams (with destruction of the brain before the return of consciousness).
Striking the cranium means either striking the cranium against a solid object (e.g. the edge of a bench) or striking the cranium with a blunt instrument. The concussive blow should be directed at the cranium with sufficient force to cause immediate loss of consciousness and probably death. After concussion, death should be confirmed by neck dislocation. 
This method is particularly recommended for killing very young pre fur rodents which have the ability to survive in low oxygen atmospheres (such as the conditions found in the nest when the mother is sitting tight on the brood). A sharp blow to the head at this early stage of development brings about instant death, this can be confirmed by watching for the colour change of the skin, once dead the skin of the animal should quickly fade from pink to blue grey in colour.
This method can also be used on all other sizes of rodents but again, as with dislocation of the neck it can become time-consuming and monotonous when large numbers of animals need to be slaughtered. 
*3) Exposure to Carbon Dioxide gas*
Exposure to Carbon Dioxide gas in a rising concentration: appropriate for rodents, rabbits and birds up to 1.5kg.
Inhalation of higher concentrations of carbon dioxide produces a slightly irritant or fizzing sensation in the nasal mucous membrane as the gas goes into solution. A rising blood concentration has a direct effect on the brain producing unconsciousness, first stimulating then depressing the rate of breathing. The initial stimulation of breathing enhances the uptake of the gas. Unconsciousness is due to a direct narcotic effect of carbon dioxide rather than hypoxia resulting from a lowered oxygen concentration in the inspired air. A controllable, metered source of carbon dioxide gas should be used and not the solid material (dry ice). Induction of narcosis is faster in the smaller animals and therefore causes less distress. For this reason it is only allowed in schedule 1 for rodents, rabbits and birds up to 1.5kg body weight.
Animals should be left in the chamber until rigor mortis sets in or removed and death ensured by neck dislocation.
With the exception of very young pre fur rodents which have the ability to survive in low oxygen atmospheres (see 2, Concussion of the brain for details on the slaughter of very young rodents ) this is by far the best, least hands on and quickest method of slaughtering rodents both singularly and in greater numbers.


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## Cranwelli (Mar 24, 2009)

This thread makes me sad.


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## NaomiR (Jan 26, 2009)

Cranwelli said:


> This thread makes me sad.


me too but it's all part of the circle of life and it's really important people know how to do these things properly and not just to *their own* ends

I "cull" the majority of my exhibition mice litters (a) because NO ONE wants boys and rescues are over run with them (b) litters would be naturally reduced in the wild, there really is no way a single doe would raise 10-20 fat healthy babies

Tiny babies go in the freezer as they're gone within minutes but anything over 4-5 days old is run on and either re-homed or culled as humanely as possible. I still *hate* doing it though.

all animals deserve respect and there really is no excuse otherwise :2thumb: there is absolutly NO NEED for suffering here


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## Carol (Aug 2, 2007)

I use the same method as before with the big Multis as well you just have to be fast, or you get nipped :lol2:


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## Cranwelli (Mar 24, 2009)

But it's a shame there isn't a dedicated place all the unwanted mice could go, which are otherwise being killed not to be eaten but simply to save space. A lot of people do it now without even thinking that they're murdering an animal as they're accustomed to it. 

Same old argument but rodents are just as a pet as puppies. Killing some of the litter of mice to satisfy a hobby is not much different to killing some of the litter of cats or dogs because there are too many! Why can't the mice be re-homed somewhere.

Anyway I'm out as it's all a hypocritical process which most owners of reptiles tend to block out. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## sunnyskeg (Jul 3, 2008)

do you block the hypocritical process out when you feed your scorp live food or feed your beetle live food


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Cranwelli said:


> But it's a shame there isn't a dedicated place all the unwanted mice could go, which are otherwise being killed not to be eaten but simply to save space. A lot of people do it now without even thinking that they're murdering an animal as they're accustomed to it.
> 
> Same old argument but rodents are just as a pet as puppies. Killing some of the litter of mice to satisfy a hobby is not much different to killing some of the litter of cats or dogs because there are too many! Why can't the mice be re-homed somewhere.
> 
> Anyway I'm out as it's all a hypocritical process which most owners of reptiles tend to block out. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


There is a dedicated place were all the unwanted mice go. It's a great big white box in my utility room. If you have any in need of rehoming, just give me a shout and I'm sure I can find some room for them:lol2:
On a more factual point, these aren't unwanted mice, they are an essential part of this hobby and several other hobbies such as falconery. 
They are bred/produced to be used as food, just as we breed/produce farm animals to be used as food. Without a ready supply of mice thousands of other animals would die of starvation and we aren't just talking about a few hundred mice, the UK alone gets through millions of them every year (god knows how many Europe and the USA use between them).
Some one with a single pet corn snake will get through between forty and fifty mice a year. Larger collections use thousands (I'm using over a hundred mice a week at the moment). 
In reality the production of mice is a major international industry. A recent DEFRA report noted that just three of the main USA suppliers of frozen rodents to the raw pet food market, imported more than 28,000 kilos of frozen rodents to the UK during 2008. That doesn't include the smaller USA producers, the European producers and our home grown UK producers. 

Natrix


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

I think it's more "hypocritical" to buy your feeder rodents neatly bagged from a reptile shop, than to breed your own in decent conditions and give them a reasonable quality of life and good food. Either way the mice and rats will die, but hey, if you don't see it being done, you can ignore it :whistling2: 

Most of us eat meat, but in general we prefer to buy our meat neatly cut up and packaged than to go out and kill it ourselves. 

Either way, it's detaching ourselves from the reality and keeping our hands clean and our consciences clear.


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## Carol (Aug 2, 2007)

I breed my own because I know how and what they are fed and they are well looked after, they are killed fast.

I kill them on the day they are being fed to my snakes.


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## bluerain (Jun 7, 2008)

Im a swing girl myself!!!:lol2:


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## Cranwelli (Mar 24, 2009)

:blah:

Point being if the mice is treated as a pet before it dies, does not suffer during the cull, fine, as a snake has got to eat. I buy pinkies from a breeder who gasses them rather than using a screwdriver or banging them on a worktop - these seem sadistic and prone to failure but if they work by all means correct me - so they do not suffer at all. My feeder insects are as well treated as I can manage before my pets have them. Good point though. I suppose I can't see past rodents being as much as a pet as a cat. Will it be okay to bang a kitten against a worktop in the future to feed a big snake?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Cranwelli said:


> Will it be okay to bang a kitten against a worktop in the future to feed a big snake?


I'd rather see unwanted kittens humanely euthanised in such a way as to allow for them to be used as feeders for snakes than humanely and chemically euthanised so that they're good for nothing but landfill or cremation.... not that I think that the "big swing" is an appropriate way (personally) to euthanise any animal (but that is because I do not believe I can do it correctly first time every time and if I can't do that, I don't think I should do it at all).

No death should be without purpose and no death should be wasted. If something HAS to die... that death should count for something.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

I have used the swing method, the screwdriver, and gas. I find the swing method is not always effective. Yes, it is most of the time, but if you misjudge the hit, it can be a bit messy, and even a little upsetting. I have now stopped doing it that way as i had a horrible accident where the skin acually came off the gerbil. Yes, it killed it, but I wasn't keep on holding its skin in my hand and seeing its tail bone.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not confident enough to try the swing and hit method. I'm not sure I would do it right and I have no wish to cause the mice or multis any more suffering than i need to. Regarding feeder insects, I also treat them as decently as possible while they are here. I feel sorry for the crickets and locusts when they arrive having been in those tubs for goodness knows how long. They are always starving and dying of thirst, so the first thing I do is transfer them into a bigger tub and give them food and water.

The crickets and locusts are not intended as pets, just as the mice aren't intended as pets, but when they are in my care, for however short a time, they are well looked after.

I don't believe in freezing live mammals. To me it's unnecessarily prolonging their suffering. I've managed to despatch 2 mice by cervical dislocation so far and have been upset on both occasions. The day that killing a living creature doesn't bother me at all, will probably be the day I decide not to keep pets anymore.

And to be honest, I'd rather see unwanted kittens humanely despatched and used for snake food, than thrown out into the street to live their lives as unwanted strays.


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## Hoolibugs (Mar 1, 2009)

I've just started breeding my own mice for my snakes again. I shall never, ever go back to buying shop-bought frozen - the last batch I had had broken legs, blood everywhere, bitemarks etc etc (they had been gassed but by the look of things jhad been overcrowded in the chanber so they panicked and started attacking each other, then the gass whas whopped up too high so they chocked rather than going to sleep)

I use a Co2 chamber - was stupidly easy to make (if I can do it anyone can!). Mice in chamber, turn Co2 on a bit, wait until they have drifted off then fill tub up with C02, turn off C02, then leave for ten minutes until they have stopped breathing. My mice have a purpose - they are there to feed my snakes. However they will have the best life until the moment they step into that chamber. Even when inside the chamber they don't know whats going on - they groom and interact completely happily. That Co2 chamber was the best thing I have done in a long time


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

mikemike118 said:


> stick it in the freezer in a ice cream tub, sealed and stick it in the freezer, this will cause the rodent to curl up and then go to sleep...
> 
> this is great because it causes no mess!
> 
> ...


:gasp: Please tell me this was a joke!!

Personally, I prefer the Co2 method. It's cheap effective, and doesn't seem to cause distress if you get the gas levels right.

I find the swing method too distressing due to _my _inconsistant swing!

I don't treat my mice any differently than any other animal. They're kept in good conditions, kept clean, given things to do and fed well. They then get given a humane death.

I don't have a problem killing things for a good reason such as feeding snakes, and agree that if it is hypocritical, it's more hypocritical to buy them ready killed!

I like mice and kittens as well as virtually all other creatures, but I don't have a problem with common specially bred animals of whatever species being killed for food.

If it's a choice of kill the cow or stop eating steak, pass me the bolt gun!


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## Majestic Morphs (Apr 8, 2008)

CO2 for me cant swing all my lot..............


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## stubeanz (Mar 28, 2007)

cant belive people still suggest freezing! cruelest way to go for any animal :devil: best way if im honest is swing method ive had 100% death rate, if you hold them by their back legs aswel as tail and swing as quick as possible onto a hard surface then they wil die instantly.
plus until you swing them, they wont realise whats happening where as other methods take longer to prepare and so from wondering whats happened to being completly dead it takes half a second to one second. 
if i was going to be euthinased humanly then id chose to die within a second and the last thing i would want is my eyes to freeze over before i died!
stu


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## GothGirl (Apr 9, 2008)

Personally I use the swing method, though the original method of culling I was tought was to swing the mouse by its tail onto the floor from above your shoulder, once to kill it and once again to make sure, does anyone have any experience with this method?


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## NaomiR (Jan 26, 2009)

I cull poorly meeces in a purpose built c02 chamber which is THE ONLY method I can bring myself to use and even that gives me sleepless nights, if you don't do it correctly the poor things suffocate but I'm confident using it now and manage to put them to sleep very gently which is a blessing.

I certainly don't take any pleasure putting ANYTHING to sleep in fact I hate it and wish there was another way sometimes, but watching something you love suffering is also not an option for me.

I don't think I will ever loose sight of the seriousness of what I have to do sometimes, if I ever do you have my full permission to gas me :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

NaomiR said:


> I cull poorly meeces in a purpose built c02 chamber which is THE ONLY method I can bring myself to use and even that gives me sleepless nights, if you don't do it correctly the poor things suffocate but I'm confident using it now and manage to put them to sleep very gently which is a blessing.
> 
> I certainly don't take any pleasure putting ANYTHING to sleep in fact I hate it and wish there was another way sometimes, but watching something you love suffering is also not an option for me.
> 
> I don't think I will ever loose sight of the seriousness of what I have to do sometimes, if I ever do you have my full permission to gas me :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I don't know if this will help you sleep or give you night mares but you CAN NOT suffocate the mice with too much CO2. Suffocation is a lack of air and is what happens in a vacuum or when some one puts a pillow over some one else’s face.

CO2 in low levels is a relaxant and creates a condition of euphoria to those that breath it in. If you watch the rodents as you begin to increase the levels of CO2 you should see them begin to clean themselves and eat very enthusiastically.

As the levels rise, the bodies reflex actions begin to kick in and the rodents will pant and may jump in an attempt to find oxygen. 
As the CO2 levels increase in the rodents blood stream the CO2 becomes an anaesthetic and the rodent falls to sleep. At this point if you allow the rodent access to air it will wake up again. 

Once the rodent is asleep you can raise the concentration of CO2 still higher to completely relax all the internal organs including the heart and lungs and it is this kills the rodent.

The reason for feeding the CO2 into the chamber slowly is to give it a chance to be absorbed into the rodents blood stream so that it's anaesthetic effects have a chance to take effect and to avoid the CO2 concentration reaching levels where it can begin to be absorbed by the fluids in the rodents eyes, nose, throat and lungs. If this happens the rodents body fluids will begin to fizz like you see in a glass of fizzy drink. This causes a lot of pain and of course stress and panic in the rodents. 
It is this painful fizzing that you are trying to avoid when gassing rodents.

Natrix


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## torch74 (May 6, 2009)

Has anyone tried nitrogen instead of CO2?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Couldn't find a supplier of Nitrogen canisters that delivered.

It does apparently work for some species - like avians - but from what I've read it causes rodents to have fits before they die. Same goes for Argon, which I have tried - and won't ever use again.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

has anyone tried pure oxigen?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I doubt it - pure oxygen is not really a gas to handle casually (due to the flammability) and it doesn't look like it causes any sort of effective narcosis let alone effective euthanasia.

Looks like it causes, among other things, lung irritation, cramping, vomiting and seizures.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Couldn't find a supplier of Nitrogen canisters that delivered.
> 
> It does apparently work for some species - like avians - but from what I've read it causes rodents to have fits before they die. Same goes for Argon, which I have tried - and won't ever use again.


wouldn't it be similar to "the bends" which divers can get? I understand that is agonising.


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## lauren loves leo's (Jul 23, 2009)

Natrix said:


> And causes lots of suffering and is illegal
> Please don't use this method.
> 
> Natrix


agree.


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## GothGirl (Apr 9, 2008)

Well unfortunately I had to cull one of our mice the other day, we went out and bought three females to go with our male (two of which were already pregnant) but the remaining female was trying to rip ten bells out of our male, and we did not want to put her in with the other females as one had dropped her babies the same night, so unfortunately this lady went for culling (It wasn't til I got her down there I discoverd she had mastitis, which I think gives her fair reason to be crabby.)

I timed the method I use, and from the initial throw, to the secondary one to make sure, it took 2.6 seconds.


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## torch74 (May 6, 2009)

Apparently nitrogen replaces CO2 in the blood. The CO2 is what tells our brain that we need to breathe so without that the body just shuts down.

I'm not a scientist but I'd be interested to know if this would be a viable option


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

torch74 said:


> Apparently nitrogen replaces CO2 in the blood. The CO2 is what tells our brain that we need to breathe so without that the body just shuts down.
> 
> I'm not a scientist but I'd be interested to know if this would be a viable option


If you get nitrogen in your blood you die!

It's called the bends, and divers get it due to pressure irregularities when surfacing.

About 78% of room air is nitrogen!

I'm not sure what you're talking about!

CO2 does partially provide/adjust your respiratory drive, but nitrogen doesn't come into it.


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## torch74 (May 6, 2009)

The thought crossed my mind due to a safety induction at work. Sometimes they use nitrogen to purge the pipework and vessels and there was an incident where a man put his head in a vessel to help a colleage. Apparently he was instantly rendered unconscious and subsequently died. If this is true would it be an option?


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

No because you only get nitrogen into your blood stream at increased pressures, which is why divers have a problem.

CO2 is an anaesthetic agent and part of the respiratory process which is why it works.

If you put a mouse in a box and filled it with nitrogen, it would die, but from asphyxiation, which is not humane.


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