# A total disaster caused by a member on here...



## Ailurus (Jun 8, 2007)

I have permission to post this, if you have any complaints please contact an admin, no people or companies have been named therfore no rules have been broken, if you are interested as to what company I am talking about I will happily disclose it in a pm. If you think you know, please do not post or mention, no naming and shaming is allowed on this forum

Thought I'd introduce myself first, I'm Tom, I'm a 20 year old student, and I am a massive fan of Australian reptiles, my favourites are dragons and skinks, and have been for many years, in November last year I decided to take the plunge and order one of my all time dream species the Gidgee Skink (Egernia stokesii). I found a breeder from Belgium named Johan Van den Bergh who was selling some of his home-bred animals, and I ordered a pair with the intention to go and pick them up at December Hamm show, however I was eventually unable to go as other commitments came up which were more important (university related) so instead I organised a courier, I was very reluctant to do this as the total cost of my animals was 600euros (that's £521.56) that is a lot of money to me, I am a student, I saved up for a long time to get that, I refused trips to the pub and didn't do other things, I ate the bare minimum so I'd have the money for it.

Here are the skinks I ordered, pics taken by the breeder: 


















I eventually decided on the courier I would use, as I heard many good reviews on here. The day came and I got a text telling me my animals had been picked up and should be with me not the next day but the day after. Which I was ok with, I thought they were coming straight back but I trusted what was said. 

The following day I got a phone call in the evening saying that they had died! As you can imagine I was very upset and distressed by this but was assured I would receive some compensation for my loss. I asked them to deliver me the bodies anyway, and they did not, until 6months later in June 2011 when one of them arrived in the post, here are some pics: 



















I contacted the breeder the day I found out they had died and he said this: 



> Hi Tom,
> 
> How is that possible. It’s not the first time they took animals over, right.
> So I guess they had some more dead animals because stokesii’s are strong animals.
> ...


followed by: 




> Tom,
> 
> Indeed, stokesii are bomb-proof. They can stand cold temps and hot temps.
> But if they said there was a problem with the heating, it is their fault and they should pay you back the money.
> ...


I also spoke to someone else who purchased animals from the same breeder and all his were 100% healthy, he also said I should have told him and he would have picked them up for me *facepalm*

It turns out my animals had got to the couriers house and had died overnight in his care. Now as expected I was very distressed by this, but was told not to worry as it will be sorted out. I heard nothing for ages and ages, even after sending numerous emails and pms to the courier company owner. Eventually I heard that he had been taken ill, unfortunate obviously, but it would have been nice to have heard. 

Anyway I eventually get a letter stating what is required of me, this letter does not arrive until late January and includes instructions as to what I needed to do a copy of their insurance information and a copy of a pathetic letter from a vet which was supposedly a Post-Mortem exam, but after speaking to other vets and veterinary students they all agreed it wasn't detailed enough. I do as instructed, I am told to write 2 letters, one detailing exactly what I purchased, who i brought them from, what I paid for them and proof of such information. Another letter detailing what I want to do about replacements, I stated that rather than return my money I would happy with them simply purchasing me a second pair at the next Hamm show, I even found a new breeder who was offering me them at a cheaper price.

I sent this letter out in early February, heard nothing. I sent an email and a couple of pms 2 weeks later asking whether they had got my letter. No response. So I posted 3 more, to 3 different addresses, the one I was given, the one listed on their website, which at the time was different (not sure now) and to the company owners house. 

I did not hear anything for months, I decided not to contact them much during February and march as they were probably busy with the March Hamm delivery and obviously these insurance things take time so I wasn't too bothered but eventually I contacted the insurance company directly in June 2011, and was told that no such claim had been made, so I requested a form and filled it out and sent it off, eventually in mid July I got a reply saying that I wasn't elligible for any form of compensation because the courier was NOT INSURED FOR THE LOSS OF LIVE ANIMALS, which suprised me as I was told they were fully insured. So I contacted them again and after posting on here I was told once again to send them my full details once again, this time by email and information about what I lost... even though they already had all this information, I was told that they would pay me £100 for each animal I lost, I sent 2 copies of this email in the space of about a fortnight and sent pms on here and since then have not heard back and that was around August time. 

To the courier (you know who you are):
It has nearly been an entire year since this happened, I would just let it go if it was just £100 or less but the fact is I worked very hard for that money and those animals. I paid £521.76 for my pair of skinks, and however they try to wriggle around it, they died in your hands, they did not have ANY form of illness or problem (this can be backed up by emails from the breeder, and he has said he would happily provide a letter or phonecall to back me up on this), and therefore, albeit unintentionally it was without a shadow of a doubt YOUR fault. So I personally feel I deserve at least £200 per animal, this is not me being a money grabber or selfish or anything like that, this is simply the fact that you owe me at least that, to be honest I should be asking you for a lot more, I posted out at least 4 letters, that's £20, I spent £200 setting up an enclosure for my animals, that never lived in it, not to mention the stress that it caused me. If you are going to offer me money please at least do me the courtesy of offering me what you actually owe me. 


I am posting this on here to try and get people aware of how terrible unorganised and what a terrible business you run, please step up and sort this out. 

I do not think I have been aggressive or angry in anyway and I have given you all the time in the world to sort this out.

Please step up, grow a pair and solve your problems. 

If you would like more info anyone, feel free to pm me. 

Tom


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Oh those poor animals. Something must have gone badly wrong for them to die so suddenly. And whilst I feel for you and the money you lost I can't help thinking of the stress and suffering those animals must have gone through.

Show guts whoever you are and give this poor man some compensation.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Although we have only heard one side, I would be furious I wuld be demanding full refund, they should have been insured, and that insurance should cover full refund of damages to animals in their care. 

Have you sought legal advice?? if not i would be there already. 

Jay


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

*reply*

You have a PM


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> Although we have only heard one side, I would be furious I wuld be demanding full refund, they should have been insured, and that insurance should cover full refund of damages to animals in their care.
> 
> Have you sought legal advice?? if not i would be there already.
> 
> Jay


^^this.
and PM'd/


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

I contacted couriers a few months ago and was surprised that some don't have insurance to cover the death of an animal they are transporting. Not even if it is their fault. One did say they would pay up to £250 if an animal died due to their fault. This shocked me. I could get them to courier a snake that cost me £1000, yet they would only give me £250 if they killed it and I should be grateful because it would be out of the goodness of their hearts.


Hope you get this sorted and get a full refund



Pm'd you


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## benh (Sep 12, 2011)

wasn't this posted up the other week, naming the courier?


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## Wigsyboy (Oct 31, 2010)

I really hope you get some sort of compensation. I am so sorry for your loss of those gorgeous little skinks


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm getting De ja vu here :whistling2:. Seen this thread before (i'm sure it was the same as i remember seeing the same pics of the dead skinks & same story about being a student). Why post it up again? Sorry but doesn't sit right with me.


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## AFC (Mar 7, 2011)

You should just name and shame. If they can't run a reputable business then they should expect bad publicity and if this is 100% truthful and genuine then they should grow a pair and pay up for the cost of the animals, plus compensation.


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## Tricky&TheFox (Nov 30, 2008)

poor animals! I really hope you receive the compensation and that this was only a one off accident, awful to think that we place so much faith in couriers and some can let you down so badly.


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## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

AFC said:


> You should just name and shame. If they can't run a reputable business then they should expect bad publicity and if this is 100% truthful and genuine then they should grow a pair and pay up for the cost of the animals, plus compensation.


Name and shame would end in thread deletion.

I don't know how this could have gone on for so long. I remember from previous "editions" of this thread who the courier is, and am surprised the issue has not been resolved. Not just for your sake and the animal's, but they're getting a bad reputation from this. I, for one, know I won't be using the courier until this is sorted out.

Not to mention you're a student, and money is everything about now. How can this person down you £500 of hard-earned cash, knowing that, as a student, money is of great importance to you, and not feel enough guilt to simply refund your purchase? I honestly don't understand how this got so complicated. Surely he could have just agreed to refund/repurchase at the next Hamm, this would never have been posted, and his reputation as a business, and a person, would never have been harmed.


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

Can you let me know via PM the name of the courier please as although I use one of them on a regular basis without any issues I have to book a few collections in soon and want to know who to avoid.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Here's one of the many threads i've found on this topic........... http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/whats-ltd/676510-hamm-december-2010-information.html I think from what i can make out in this thread that the courier was found not to be at fault so their insurance company won't pay out. Think the OP should take this up with the breeder & seek legal advice on where to take it now.


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## 0123456789 (Feb 18, 2011)

Isn't there someone you can report this to?


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## LittleC (Nov 24, 2011)

oh those poor little animals!! What distress they must have felt to die like that! 

Im not 100% as it has been a good few years since I worked in imports and exports but im pretty sure it is illegal for anybody to move live animals without insurance in place. This not only covers the animals but in case of any health issues etc as well. Maybe check up on Maritime Law and see if you can get any further information from that way.

Hope you get somewhere with this awful company! x


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## Ged (Nov 9, 2009)

Why don't you take them to court? Get the full amount of money and claim compensation and report them to the RSPCA for animal cruelty as you said, they died in their care and not from disease.


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## duvessa (May 16, 2010)

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome :2thumb:


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## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Something still seems strange though. Looking at the replies in this thread from a business point of view, the courier is loosing huge amounts of respectibility, customers and money from this-and seeing as they are a member, they will most probably have seen this thread (it has been re-posted several times) and be aware of everything they are loosing by not sorting out the issues here. Which begs the question, _Why?_ Surely it would be in the courier's best interest to get this sorted out in private and avoid further losses for the company. Considering the threat of persecution for animal cruelty is now also in the mix, you'd think the courier would be snatching up any sort of deal the OP offered-especially considering the deal he was offering is perfectly just and reasonable. I get the feeling there's something else going on here, otherwise he would have acted up far sooner-or maybe we aren't hearing the whole story.

But once again, surely if we weren't hearing the whole story, the courier would have replied and set the records straight? It's all very peculiar. I'll be watching this thread closely, I'm intrigued to see how this will unfold. I wish you all the best in getting back your money, and, hopefully, those wonderful little lizards!


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

SourGrapes said:


> Something still seems strange though. Looking at the replies in this thread from a business point of view, the courier is loosing huge amounts of respectibility, customers and money from this-and seeing as they are a member, they will most probably have seen this thread (it has been re-posted several times) and be aware of everything they are loosing by not sorting out the issues here. Which begs the question, _Why?_ Surely it would be in the courier's best interest to get this sorted out in private and avoid further losses for the company. Considering the threat of persecution for animal cruelty is now also in the mix, you'd think the courier would be snatching up any sort of deal the OP offered-especially considering the deal he was offering is perfectly just and reasonable. I get the feeling there's something else going on here, otherwise he would have acted up far sooner-or maybe we aren't hearing the whole story.
> 
> But once again, surely if we weren't hearing the whole story, the courier would have replied and set the records straight? It's all very peculiar. I'll be watching this thread closely, I'm intrigued to see how this will unfold. I wish you all the best in getting back your money, and, hopefully, those wonderful little lizards!



See the link in my post above, the courier has replied & the vet found that the animals that died didn't die due to their neglect & that they had died due to the stress of the journey to the show. It's all in the link above ^^^.


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## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

corny girl said:


> See the link in my post above, the courier has replied & the vet found that the animals that died didn't die due to their neglect & that they had died due to the stress of the journey to the show. It's all in the link above ^^^.


Ahh, right. Thanks. Certainly clears things up a little, in all honesty, it's starting to seem like the courier did everything in their power here.


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## E80 (Jul 25, 2010)

corny girl said:


> I'm getting De ja vu here :whistling2:. Seen this thread before (i'm sure it was the same as i remember seeing the same pics of the dead skinks & same story about being a student). Why post it up again? Sorry but doesn't sit right with me.


Probably because he's not had a response?


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## rickpellen (Nov 21, 2008)

i think the message here is why would you use a courier for an animal of that value....it is unfortunate, and i feel very bad for the OP, but personally i would not use a courier for animals of that value, especially from hamm


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Ah I know who this is now, just checked the thread history.
I sincerely hope you get it sorted mate, best of luck.


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## Ailurus (Jun 8, 2007)

corny girl said:


> I'm getting De ja vu here :whistling2:. Seen this thread before (i'm sure it was the same as i remember seeing the same pics of the dead skinks & same story about being a student). Why post it up again? Sorry but doesn't sit right with me.





benh said:


> wasn't this posted up the other week, naming the courier?


I posted it up again because it got taken down last time because I mentioned the courier, I spoke to an admin about it and they said they could see why I wanted it to be posted so said I could repost it but couldnt mention the couriers name. 




rickpellen said:


> i think the message here is why would you use a courier for an animal of that value....it is unfortunate, and i feel very bad for the OP, but personally i would not use a courier for animals of that value, especially from hamm


I seriously regret it now, but at the time, because of reviews on here I believed they would be fine, also they are resilient little lizards so doubted anything would happen. I've heard of people courier much more expensive animals, a friend had a pair of Fijian Iguanas couriered here from Germany, they were a lot more expensive.



SourGrapes said:


> Ahh, right. Thanks. Certainly clears things up a little, in all honesty, it's starting to seem like the courier did everything in their power here.


You say that but having been told I'd have a refund, and even AFTER the insurance claim fell through I was still told I would receive something, and then nothing.... I even said I was happy to not receive money and just have a new pair of animals, and I found a pair available for nearly half the price (wish I'd found them before). Shocking customer service and contact as well.

--------

Thanks people for the comments, I have replied to all the pms as well.


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## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

Ailurus said:


> You say that but having been told I'd have a refund, and even AFTER the insurance claim fell through I was still told I would receive something, and then nothing.... I even said I was happy to not receive money and just have a new pair of animals, and I found a pair available for nearly half the price (wish I'd found them before). Shocking customer service and contact as well.


Fair enough. Seems odd that such a reputable and well-respected courier would be involved in something like this. Keep me in the loop on this one, would like to see how it pans out, and best of luck to you. And remember, you _can_ (and should) take legal action here.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

A sad situation.

Live animals were not insured by this couriers` insurance company,I doubt that any insurance company will insure animals for this sort of activity.there are too many variables.Either that or the premiums would be too high to make it worthwhile.Its not like insuring freight.

If I remember correctly the vets report stated that the skinks had died from "sudden death syndrome".Thats a bizarre one much like "spontaneous human combustion" or "posessed by the Devil".I find it hard to believe but with that being the only vets report available I dont know what you can do as they died so long ago.

The only legal route, from my knowledge, would be to go to the small claims court,they are usually very helpfu. lAgain they would be able to advise as to whether you have a claim.Dont get solicitors involved yet,it will cost you more than the cost of the skinks in the long run.

I am sorry to tell you that in the end I think that you are in the hands of the courier,he has had the money,if he doesn`t want to reimburse you wont get it.


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## Dean Cheetham (Jun 1, 2009)

i too would like the courier name via pm if you would be so kind?
I had a VERY expensive animal delivered by a courier yesterday.
I would have been devistated if this happened to me!
Best of luck with this mate! :2thumb:


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## roob_1983 (Nov 14, 2007)

personally id try taking them through small claims court if you have no luck with them are they advertising that they are fully insured?


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

Those of you who have read the other thread will know that i also had animals die on the same journey....in fact 6 reptiles.

It is not just the heartbreak of reptiles dying, animals that were dearly wanted and i had worked hard to save for and purchase, it was the constant empty promises, letters not signed for, calls not returned, an offer in the previous thread of compensation, another lie unfortunately. Last call i made was a couple of weeks ago, i was supposed to be called back...nothing, yet again.

Corny girl, that's 3 different types of reptile supposedly died due to stress :whistling2: although no PM's were carried out on my animals, i asked for photos of them, but i didn't even get that. 
A couple of mine were cresteds, one of the most hardiest of reptiles.

I am going to the small claims court.


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## naturechris (Apr 23, 2009)

indeed you should both take them to court, maybe then in future they will be more careful of their actions. treat their customers with respect that they deserve! 

can you please PM me the name of the company so i dont make the same mistake, have them kill my animals and treat me like dirt.....

hope you get back what belongs to you


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## Tiliqua (Dec 6, 2008)

Hi,

I know Tom (from the forums and correspondence), I know the courier and have used them a few times with no problems. I also know Johan, the breeder in Belgium. I actually bought the same species from him at the same show, Terraristika, December 2010. Johan has been around for years and is about as reliable and well respected as they come. He was one of a handful of people breeding shinglebacks in Europe until fairly recently. At the show he told me that he was waiting for a courier to pick up another pair of stokesii that were destined for England. 

Given that I have used this courier myself, with good experiences, I have been pretty disbelieving that they could get this all so very wrong. They are clearly losing trade - I know a few people who have stopped using them.Also I have no doubt that this will be the first time that the vet responsible has ever examined this species, genus or family of lizards. They were never going to identify a cause of death unless it was absolutely unmistakenly bleeding obvious. A total red herring.

Whether or not they are insured or whether or not this qualified for a claim under their policy, if they are insured, is all immaterial. Surely it is their responsibility to sort this.


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## BDS-Eva (Sep 16, 2011)

There are always two sides to every story and I believe in a situation like this people would do well to remember that. The loss of those beautiful skinks is such a shame and I definitely think everyone is right about trying the small claims court. You deserve to get all your money back whatever the situation may be.


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## Ailurus (Jun 8, 2007)

suey said:


> Those of you who have read the other thread will know that i also had animals die on the same journey....in fact 6 reptiles.
> 
> It is not just the heartbreak of reptiles dying, animals that were dearly wanted and i had worked hard to save for and purchase, it was the constant empty promises, letters not signed for, calls not returned, an offer in the previous thread of compensation, another lie unfortunately. Last call i made was a couple of weeks ago, i was supposed to be called back...nothing, yet again.
> 
> ...


Hi Sue, glad your still fighting for your losses, you certainly lost a lot more than I did. If you are going through small claims court, is there anyway we could collaborate and make a large case, wouldnt this get more attention if the same thing happened to two different people? I'd also like to know about what your plans are regarding the small claims court and anything else, could you pm or email me your plans... if that's ok. 




Tiliqua said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know Tom (from the forums and correspondence), I know the courier and have used them a few times with no problems. I also know Johan, the breeder in Belgium. I actually bought the same species from him at the same show, Terraristika, December 2010. Johan has been around for years and is about as reliable and well respected as they come. He was one of a handful of people breeding shinglebacks in Europe until fairly recently. At the show he told me that he was waiting for a courier to pick up another pair of stokesii that were destined for England.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark. thanks for the post, how are your egernia stokesii doing?


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

The courier was not insured to carry livestock. As it states on the other thread he "self insured" up to the value of £100. 


It also says there were 12 deaths on that journey. You lost 2, suey lost 6. That means there has to be at least one other person involved


I find it hard to believe that 12 deaths were all put down to SDS


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## S&PC REPTILES (Nov 19, 2011)

*never again*

i have used the same courier i had noting but trouble. i know a few people that would not use them again.


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## gosman2002 (Feb 5, 2011)

the bad thing about not being able to name and shame is other couriers may lose trade through this.
chris


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

suey said:


> Those of you who have read the other thread will know that i also had animals die on the same journey....in fact 6 reptiles.
> 
> It is not just the heartbreak of reptiles dying, animals that were dearly wanted and i had worked hard to save for and purchase, it was the constant empty promises, letters not signed for, calls not returned, an offer in the previous thread of compensation, another lie unfortunately. Last call i made was a couple of weeks ago, i was supposed to be called back...nothing, yet again.
> 
> ...




Sue, i didn't realise you had some die on this run. I really do hope this is sorted soon for everyone involved. I read the other threads & from their reply it was found not to be the couriers fault. This is what i based my reply on. I guess it is now down to the courts to decide who is at fault.


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## Nigel_wales (Mar 24, 2009)

I will not be using this courier again! I have held off saying this to see if they post a reply to this thread, it is kind of sad that they have not sorted this out and are blatantly avoiding the situation and fobbing people off. Sorry 2 hear about your losses guys and good luck in court!


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## BeenzandCarlos (Apr 25, 2011)

Regardless of anythin else 12 dead animals on 1 journey suggests something was very wrong, good luck


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## sheena is a gecko (Apr 22, 2011)

While I am very sorry this happened to you and totally sympathise - if it had happened to me i would be devastated- surely you can't put all the blame on the courier? Something happened which was outside your control -possibly it was something also outside of the couriers control- but it was outside of your control because you chose to use this service. When you choose to let another person care for your animals then you have to accept the risk that something may happen. If you had transported the animals yourself and they had died in your care you would no doubt have got a similar response from the breeder only in that case you would know you were'nt to blame because you were there. 
The only way to know that your animals are being cared for to the standard you require is to do the job yourself. Everyone wants a cheap courier service but when it comes down to it you are basically choosing to allow a total stranger to take care of often very expensive animals. It's like me paying someone to look after my collection while I'm on holiday - which in total has cost us thousands of pounds- then expecting them to compensate me when something went wrong. Something which i would be unable to say was not an accident and was caused by their negligence because i was not there. It's a trade off, if I want the holiday I have to trust someone to take care of them and accept the risk something may happen while i'm gone. Same with you. You were unable to collect your animals and ensure their safe delivery yourself but you still wanted them so you decided to trust a courier to transport them. You can't be 100% sure the animals were totally healthy when they were picked up and that it was down to something the courier did because you were not there. people make mistakes and accidents happen


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## Ailurus (Jun 8, 2007)

fuzzielady said:


> The courier was not insured to carry livestock. As it states on the other thread he "self insured" up to the value of £100.
> 
> 
> It also says there were 12 deaths on that journey. You lost 2, suey lost 6. That means there has to be at least one other person involved
> ...


Exactly and also considering only ONE post mortem autopsy was carried out, and only on one of my animals, no other animal was examined... which is, quite frankly, ridiculous. 

If the courier does not respond, even to me by PM, then you are even more pathetic than I thought, I seriously do not think I have ever been so angry and disappointed with one person. I completely understand if you do not reply to this thread as then everyone will know it was you, but at least pm me about it. I find it hard to believe you haven't seen this thread.


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## Ailurus (Jun 8, 2007)

sheena is a gecko said:


> While I am very sorry this happened to you and totally sympathise - if it had happened to me i would be devastated- surely you can't put all the blame on the courier? Something happened which was outside your control -possibly it was something also outside of the couriers control- but it was outside of your control because you chose to use this service. When you choose to let another person care for your animals then you have to accept the risk that something may happen. If you had transported the animals yourself and they had died in your care you would no doubt have got a similar response from the breeder only in that case you would know you were'nt to blame because you were there.
> The only way to know that your animals are being cared for to the standard you require is to do the job yourself. Everyone wants a cheap courier service but when it comes down to it you are basically choosing to allow a total stranger to take care of often very expensive animals. It's like me paying someone to look after my collection while I'm on holiday - which in total has cost us thousands of pounds- then expecting them to compensate me when something went wrong. Something which i would be unable to say was not an accident and was caused by their negligence because i was not there. It's a trade off, if I want the holiday I have to trust someone to take care of them and accept the risk something may happen while i'm gone. Same with you. You were unable to collect your animals and ensure their safe delivery yourself but you still wanted them so you decided to trust a courier to transport them. You can't be 100% sure the animals were totally healthy when they were picked up and that it was down to something the courier did because you were not there. people make mistakes and accidents happen


I know, they obviously didn't kill them on purpose, I blame them for telling me I would receive a refund to cover my losses, and then it never coming, and then them ignoring all my messages.

The deaths occurred it happened, and they were in their care, so of course I blame them, if they'd died in my hands I'd have blamed myself. But the thing was before I ordered them by courier I researched how they took to travel, and everyone said they were hard as nails, could take hot temps (in the desert where they live in gets very very hot, they're from australia) they could also handle cold temps, in fact almost freezing. So something must have gone very wrong, and its ok, everyone makes mistakes, but they should at least have the decency to admit a mistake/error occurred and then complete what they said they would do, which is to give me some sort of compensation.


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## sheena is a gecko (Apr 22, 2011)

Ailurus said:


> I know, they obviously didn't kill them on purpose, I blame them for telling me I would receive a refund to cover my losses, and then it never coming, and then them ignoring all my messages.
> 
> The deaths occurred it happened, and they were in their care, so of course I blame them, if they'd died in my hands I'd have blamed myself. But the thing was before I ordered them by courier I researched how they took to travel, and everyone said they were hard as nails, could take hot temps (in the desert where they live in gets very very hot, they're from australia) they could also handle cold temps, in fact almost freezing. So something must have gone very wrong, and its ok, everyone makes mistakes, but they should at least have the decency to admit a mistake/error occurred and then complete what they said they would do, which is to give me some sort of compensation.


I agree it does sound as though they have not dealt with a very unfortunate incident as well as they could have done .


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

I tried to 'keep out' of this thread but now feel I'd like to make a point or two.....

I've used these guys and will do so again. I'd also say they aren't necessarily 'perfect' and once or twice I've felt a little frustrated with them regarding updates etc.

BUT.

They are offering a service and are human beings, that combination in any walk of life rarely equates to 100% perfection. In this scenario I see some issues around responding to the OP and being seen as 'fair and reasonable' in their actions since the incident. However the actual deaths of any animals cannot 'in my opinion' be attributed to somebody that you are paying to TRANSPORT LIVESTOCK over a reasonable distance. They aren't guaranteeing anything via their service, they offer a transportation service which they attempt via various means to ensure is successful.
On this occasion it wasn't.......
On literally hundreds of others it has been. That's a small failure rate in any terms.
Heartbreaking as it is, if you lose animals 'in transit' that you haven't hand collected from source yourself, it's a 'risk'. A risk is something that can be seen to have a negative outcome. A risk assessment takes into consideration the POSSIBILITY that something can go wrong. A risk assssment on animals in transit would every single time say 'risk of death'.

That's what happened. Only if gross negligence can be proved to have occured has the person providing the service got a problem. That may or may not be the case, I and most of the other people commenting simply do not know.

Unfortunately, the only way to guarantee anything being done to your standards is to do it yourself. I wouldnt trust my hard sourced animals to a 3rd party if I couldnt deal with the risk of something going wrong.

I have experience of transport problems from Hamm, one of the reasons why I went myself last time. Even then I was relying on animals coming back safely once I had them in my possession, I was very relieved to see them all back at my place I can tell you.....

Heartfelt sympathy to anyone losing an animal in these circumstances but lets not hang someone out to dry via a forum eh?

PS - anyone remember the weather in Dec last year, good luck to anyone driving long distances in that.........


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Ailurus said:


> Exactly and also considering only ONE post mortem autopsy was carried out, and only on one of my animals, no other animal was examined... which is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
> 
> If the courier does not respond, even to me by PM, then you are even more pathetic than I thought, I seriously do not think I have ever been so angry and disappointed with one person. I completely understand if you do not reply to this thread as then everyone will know it was you, but at least pm me about it. I find it hard to believe you haven't seen this thread.


From what I read on the other thread. Out of the 12 that died, 3 were sent to the vets and all the deaths were all put down to SDS. If it had been one reptile, or a couple from the same seller then I would say they may have been ill on pick up. But 12 from several sellers is a bit much to put down to "just one of those things"

I did contact this courier when needing snakes brought up. I decided against them due to their lack of livestock insurance. Not that you expect anything to go wrong. I just didn't like the, we will compensate a maximum of £100 if your rep dies due to our negligence. Going by this thread they don't even do that.


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## SourGrapes (Aug 18, 2011)

I have a question. You say you were told the lizards would be refunded or an equivelant repurchased, no? But did the courier actually _guarantee_ a refund, or simply state he hoped to or would try to refund, or something along those lines? If the latter, he would have never promised a refund at all...


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## jo-jo-beans (Jun 28, 2010)

I've used this courier a few times before and not had any problems.

Am I right in saying, if I remember correctly, when the incident happened with the OP, when his skinks were in the care of the courier, the courier was actually rushed to hospital, and his family did their best to sort the animals out and get them to where they should be going?


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## Ailurus (Jun 8, 2007)

@jojobeans: The hospital incident happened a few weeks after I believe. 

@sourgrapes: He did promise me some sort of repayment.


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## bigd_1 (May 31, 2011)

hi did there send you just 1 reptile up and if so y not send you the 2 up


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## stokesy (Mar 11, 2011)

what a shame - amazing, gorgeous skinks! great name too:whistling2:

seems awful its come to this, I know its hard picking up animals you know no history of and transporting them, which no matter how well its done will put the animal into a stressful situation. but with 12 animals from several sources dying on one trip surely business sense would be to try to resolve the situation with the clients amicably, if as they've stated they have had an excellent track record why not at least compensate the poor owners on this occasion. 

I really don't understand why the bodies weren't immediately transported to the owners, then they had the choice to do a full autopsy.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Personally I cant see the point of repeatedly posting the same story all the time. yes it was a disaster both for you and the lizards.

You have two choices now.

Man up and take him / insurance company to court
or
Let it drop and stop putting the same story up on the forums in new threads repeatedly.


To quote you directly as you put in first post

Please step up, grow a pair and solve your problems.


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## Dan Bristow (Jan 12, 2008)

Still not sorted?!!!! I would definitely be taking legal action. I will not use said courier ever again and since I learnt about this situation a few months ago, I have also put a few others off using them.
Bad news travels a lot faster than good, the courier should remember that!


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## Jimmyjayz (Mar 20, 2011)

i can guess with probably around 95% certainty that the deaths were caused by low oxygen if they were packed in poly boxes and the transporter used heat packs rather than a heated van, heat packs consume oxygen at an alarming rate when first set off, so it will not have been temperature related at all imo.

to long a journey with out opening the boxes, and then if heat packs used oxygen starvation 

couriers mistake imo, something they should sort out, either way multiple animals died in there care from different breeders and different buyers only one thing in comman the journey back to home or delivery !!

if you provide a service like this im sure defra and other companies will insist on you covering the value of livestock carried, maybee a quick call to them to check on the status of there liscence to carry such animals ?

all the best


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

corny girl said:


> Here's one of the many threads i've found on this topic........... http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/whats-ltd/676510-hamm-december-2010-information.html I think from what i can make out in this thread that the courier was found not to be at fault so their insurance company won't pay out. Think the OP should take this up with the breeder & seek legal advice on where to take it now.


So you think that a made up issue such as "sudden death syndrome" is legit an resolves the courier company of responsibility? What a joke. If a reptile dies as a result of not being heated properly, there will be no way of telling it died from that. Even if it froze and then thawed out, you can not tell.

There is no such thing as SDS. It is a made up thing that pretty much tells you that the vet does not know exactly how it died. That does not exactly take fault from the courier.


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## Mysterious_121 (Feb 18, 2010)

Im sure there is a degree of duty of care but if i remember the illness happened in the snow on a run. I remember having some animals stuck up in ireland for ages. I think that they should have been heated a bit more (animals ive had delivered are always stone cold) but its one of those things really. I do think better refunds should have been offered but its easy to speculate. Good luck to those involved


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## Braz (Feb 10, 2011)

Not read the whole thread but get the jist of it. Not sure if the Citizens Advice Bureau is available in England, but its basically free legal advice. Take all paperwork you have to them and they make phone calls on your behalf and they will also compose letters for you also. I have used them in the past and couldn't believe how helpful and understanding they were. As I said, not read the whole thread so I don't know if anyone has suggested this , but definately worth a shout and best of all its FREE. :2thumb:


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

I didn't realise there had been numerous threads about this, this is only the second one i have seen, and I have only made one post about my situation before today

Just to clarify a few things, the situation occurred before the driver was taken ill when they were in the couriers home, IMO i think we are looking at too hot as opposed to too cold.

I was told even if i didn't get a full refund from his insurance company he would replace the animals for me at the next Hamm show. I must admit i naively thought his insurance would pay out, that is what i was led to believe, either the courier didn't know he was not insured for what had happened or i was being misled right from the start.

As i said in the one thread i did post in, i actually felt sorry for him, mistakes happen, and i had used his services a few times over the years. Unfortunately all the promises given were empty ones, truth is there has not been one single attempt to rectify the situation whatever you may read on any threads.

His last post about it said he would 'kindly' give us a £100 per animal as a good will gesture, this was just before locking the thread and then refusing to answer calls, emails, pm's etc about the so called good will gesture.


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

Thanks Braz :2thumb:


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## KurtH (Sep 24, 2010)

Did you read their 'insurance' section on their website which states you're barely covered for anything and to be correctly covered, you would need a vet inspection on the animals prior to transit????

If I was spending £500+ on reptiles, I would probably have read the information on the site!

Personally after sending a reptile via this courier arranged by someone who bought one of my reptiles, I wouldn't do it again....No reptile should be laid in a pillow case which is cable tied and share a viv with god knows how many pillow cased reptiles, not get fed for the whole journey and be almost 2 days late :whip:

If you want a reptile that bad, go pick it up yourself : victory:


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Gregg M said:


> So you think that a made up issue such as "sudden death syndrome" is legit an resolves the courier company of responsibility? What a joke. If a reptile dies as a result of not being heated properly, there will be no way of telling it died from that. Even if it froze and then thawed out, you can not tell.
> 
> There is no such thing as SDS. It is a made up thing that pretty much tells you that the vet does not know exactly how it died. That does not exactly take fault from the courier.



I don't know what your problem is, but if you have a problem with me then PM me. Do you realise that it is against forum rules to keep harrassing another forum member. It seems every post i make you are quoting & slagging me off.


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## WildWorldReptiles (May 24, 2011)

Hi all,

We have just seen this thread and I thought it would be good to give the view of a courier company.

We are not the company involved (we were merely a twinkle in our founders eye at the time), but feel we would have handled the situation differently.

Let me say this, it is impossible to insure the carriage of live animals in this way for any reasonable cost, certainly not one that could be passed on to our customers.

We have looked in to it many times but have given it up. We will insure animals up to £250 by our terms but would certainly do everything we can to cover any problems that occurred during transit, regardless of fault, unless the animal was demonstrably ill before pick up (a vastly different instance). 

I'm really sorry that you have suffered this loss and it really sucks. I'm really sad for the poor animals that lost their lives to this. 

Couriers are not all bad, we are trying to provide a service and it is one that costs us a lot of money to do. We do our best to provide a great service and will always be honest and transparent with our customers.

We don't have live animals insurance and never could for the money we charge for our service, but we would clearly compensate in this instance.

I really hope that you get a reasonable resolution to this problem.

Wild World Reptiles


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

i dont get all the people saying 'you took a risk' and deal with it, he was paying a professional to do this job for him, if he had gone over in his car there could have been any number of factors, but with these companies that claim all the experience, equipment etc to turn around and say 'it happens' is pure BS. is there not some sort of standards that must be adhered to to get those defra licences?


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

can someone please explain to me why animal couriers dont have to be insured for damage to the items there carrying?

i know its a different area but for my job i deal with courier companies all the time, including submitting paperwork for compensation claims due to broken/damaged/lost goods, in most these cases the companies insurance covered the full cost of the item, including any cost incurred in bringing the items back to its place of postage. that is standard and if they damaged the goods the minimum they have to pay is the cost of returning the item combined with a percentage worth of that item.

why is this different for animal couriers? or is it just to cut costs? im not having a go, im curious.


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## WildWorldReptiles (May 24, 2011)

miss_ferret said:


> can someone please explain to me why animal couriers dont have to be insured for damage to the items there carrying?
> 
> i know its a different area but for my job i deal with courier companies all the time, including submitting paperwork for compensation claims due to broken/damaged/lost goods, in most these cases the companies insurance covered the full cost of the item, including any cost incurred in bringing the items back to its place of postage. that is standard and if they damaged the goods the minimum they have to pay is the cost of returning the item combined with a percentage worth of that item.
> 
> why is this different for animal couriers? or is it just to cut costs? im not having a go, im curious.


We can't speak for other couriers, but we do have goods in transit insurance. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) live animals are not classed as "goods" and therefore not covered by the insurance.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

naja-naja said:


> i dont get all the people saying 'you took a risk' and deal with it, he was paying a professional to do this job for him, if he had gone over in his car there could have been any number of factors, but with these companies that claim all the experience, equipment etc to turn around and say 'it happens' is pure BS. is there not some sort of standards that must be adhered to to get those defra licences?



This is exactly what i was thinking but I didn't want to comment yet until someone else said it. Businesses all over have gone to hell and customer service these days is a JOKE. I have seen more unprofessionalism in the past 5 years than in all my 31 years of existence. 

If you are paying a for a service, you need to get what you are paying them for, if you can not provide the service you offer, why run a business? Do it right or DON'T DO IT AT ALL. If you do NOT provide said advertised service, then your customer is entitled to a full refund, otherwise it's basically just a ROBBERY. What that courier service did to thiese poor people could just as well be classified as STEALING....or FRAUD......or at LEAST false advertisement.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

WildWorldReptiles said:


> We can't speak for other couriers, but we do have goods in transit insurance. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) live animals are not classed as "goods" and therefore not covered by the insurance.


il have to do some looking into that on my own i think. iv a friend who sometimes imports horses and some other livestock, according to his insurance they are classed as his property and as such come under 'goods'. it may just be some form of personal insurance though, il have to ask him.

please dont take this personally because iv quoted your reply as it is honestly not a criticism, but this thread has made me think twice about having an animal couriered in future. id assumed that if the animal died or became ill while under the care of the, or due to the actions of the courier (as long as they where healthy to begin with) then the courier would be liable for the cost of the animal(s).


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

Hasnt this courier messed up a few times in the past? I remember Hamm coach trips waaaaaayyy back and there were issues with overheating on the buses and many things died. I have avoided this courier ever since that....


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

Trouble is that is the problem, i am sure most of us would assume if you pay a professional to do a job and it goes wrong you would get compensation.

If i asked a courier to collect a table and they dropped and smashed it surely i would get compensation?


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## catch and release (Jun 1, 2011)

WildWorldReptiles said:


> Hi all,
> 
> We have just seen this thread and I thought it would be good to give the view of a courier company.
> 
> ...



I think you make some good points. At the end of the day deaths in transit will happen. What is of importance is how any company deals with this. On this occasion the company involved has treated RFUK member Ailurus dreadfully and they should be ashamed of themselves. As for the more philosophical members who have posted on this thread who are trying to defend the company concerned i have to ask, what planet are you on?, and would you take it lying down if you were substantially out of pocket?. There is no defence for the way the courier company have behaved. I really hope this thread is periodically added to so that it gets bumped and serves as a constant reminder of how a company should not do business.

catch and release


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

WildWorldReptiles said:


> We can't speak for other couriers, but we do have goods in transit insurance. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) live animals are not classed as "goods" and therefore not covered by the insurance.


Exactly - live animals. Not boxes or tables.....



Victor Creed said:


> If you are paying a for a service, you need to get what you are paying them for, if you can not provide the service you offer, why run a business? Do it right or DON'T DO IT AT ALL. If you do NOT provide said advertised service, then your customer is entitled to a full refund, otherwise it's basically just a ROBBERY. What that courier service did to thiese poor people could just as well be classified as STEALING....or FRAUD......or at LEAST false advertisement.


In this instance though, I'm sure the OP didn't PAY the courier. Therefore they haven't paid for anything......The company are paid on SUCCESSFUL completion of the job.



suey said:


> Trouble is that is the problem, i am sure most of us would assume if you pay a professional to do a jobU and it goes wrong you would get compensation.
> 
> If i asked a courier to collect a table and they dropped and smashed it surely i would get compensation?


Same again unfortunately, they aren't paid. It's like asking someone to make you a cake (perform a service). If they drop the cake or it's not what you wanted, if you haven't made any up front payment you would simply not pay them. UNLESS you had some sort of insurance pre defined for these eventualities. As has already been stated, this doesn't happen with live animal transit.
It's all in the terms of service/contract.



catch and release said:


> I think you make some good points. At the end of the day deaths in transit will happen. What is of importance is how any company deals with this. On this occasion the company involved has treated RFUK member Ailurus dreadfully and they should be ashamed of themselves. As for the more philosophical members who have posted on this thread who are trying to defend the company concerned i have to ask, what planet are you on?, and would you take it lying down if you were substantially out of pocket?. There is no defence for the way the courier company have behaved. I really hope this thread is periodically added to so that it gets bumped and serves as a constant reminder of how a company should not do business.
> 
> catch and release


I'm not 'defending' the actions here and yes I'd be fuming, but that's different to legally having to provide a full refund for animals in transit, unlesss as previously stated the courier can be proven to be negligent. Again as previously stated, none of us commenting can prove that, possibly neither can the OP or people affected.
The only thing to do is ever use the company again and advise others of your experience, word of mouth tends to go a long way in sustaining a reputation.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Big Red One said:


> In this instance though, I'm sure the OP didn't PAY the courier. Therefore they haven't paid for anything......The company are paid on SUCCESSFUL completion of the job.


yes I'm sure the OP would make such a big fuss over NOT having paid the company. I know someone making a promise and not keeping it is some serious stuff and he'd probably freak out like this for just taking someone's word. The fact that he already said he'd paid over 500 for it means nothing and he's worked up for no reason, as are the other people in this thread who have lost animals and possibly money to this company. 

Coming to think of it, did this company pay YOU money to come on here and type this, cuz it sure seems like it. I'm almost willing to bet money you either WORK for this company or were paid by them to come on here and make this post.

Idk about you Bro, but you seemed to give yourself up just by the way you typed and what you said. Anyone else think this guy is suspect ?


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> yes I'm sure the OP would make such a big fuss over NOT having paid the company. I know someone making a promise and not keeping it is some serious stuff and he'd probably freak out like this for just taking someone's word. The fact that he already said he'd paid over 500 for it means nothing and he's worked up for no reason, as are the other people in this thread who have lost animals and possibly money to this company.
> 
> Coming to think of it, did this company pay YOU money to come on here and type this, cuz it sure seems like it. I'm almost willing to bet money you either WORK for this company or were paid by them to come on here and make this post.
> 
> Idk about you Bro, but you seemed to give yourself up just by the way you typed and what you said. Anyone else think this guy is suspect ?


Nope...


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## Dean Cheetham (Jun 1, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> yes I'm sure the OP would make such a big fuss over NOT having paid the company. I know someone making a promise and not keeping it is some serious stuff and he'd probably freak out like this for just taking someone's word. The fact that he already said he'd paid over 500 for it means nothing and he's worked up for no reason, as are the other people in this thread who have lost animals and possibly money to this company.
> 
> Coming to think of it, did this company pay YOU money to come on here and type this, cuz it sure seems like it. I'm almost willing to bet money you either WORK for this company or were paid by them to come on here and make this post.
> 
> Idk about you Bro, but you seemed to give yourself up just by the way you typed and what you said. Anyone else think this guy is suspect ?


Nope! Big Red is a regular poster and more then willing to help :2thumb:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Victor Creed said:


> yes I'm sure the OP would make such a big fuss over NOT having paid the company. I know someone making a promise and not keeping it is some serious stuff and he'd probably freak out like this for just taking someone's word. The fact that he already said he'd paid over 500 for it means nothing and he's worked up for no reason, as are the other people in this thread who have lost animals and possibly money to this company.
> 
> Coming to think of it, did this company pay YOU money to come on here and type this, cuz it sure seems like it. I'm almost willing to bet money you either WORK for this company or were paid by them to come on here and make this post.
> 
> Idk about you Bro, but you seemed to give yourself up just by the way you typed and what you said. Anyone else think this guy is suspect ?


Yeah, I'm UK marketing manager for them.
I've also sold my soul to the devil, pull the wings off butterflies and mock the afflicted......

Or maybe not.



Tombo46 said:


> Nope...


That's what I like - simplicity! 



Dean Cheetham said:


> Nope! Big Red is a regular poster and more then willing to help :2thumb:


Cheers, nice to know I have some use...


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## sheena is a gecko (Apr 22, 2011)

Victor Creed said:


> yes I'm sure the OP would make such a big fuss over NOT having paid the company. I know someone making a promise and not keeping it is some serious stuff and he'd probably freak out like this for just taking someone's word. The fact that he already said he'd paid over 500 for it means nothing and he's worked up for no reason, as are the other people in this thread who have lost animals and possibly money to this company.
> 
> Coming to think of it, did this company pay YOU money to come on here and type this, cuz it sure seems like it. I'm almost willing to bet money you either WORK for this company or were paid by them to come on here and make this post.
> 
> Idk about you Bro, but you seemed to give yourself up just by the way you typed and what you said. Anyone else think this guy is suspect ?


Possibly the most pointless accusation ever :bash:


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## sheena is a gecko (Apr 22, 2011)

catch and release said:


> I think you make some good points. At the end of the day deaths in transit will happen. What is of importance is how any company deals with this. On this occasion the company involved has treated RFUK member Ailurus dreadfully and they should be ashamed of themselves. As for the more philosophical members who have posted on this thread who are trying to defend the company concerned i have to ask, what planet are you on?, and would you take it lying down if you were substantially out of pocket?. There is no defence for the way the courier company have behaved. I really hope this thread is periodically added to so that it gets bumped and serves as a constant reminder of how a company should not do business.
> 
> catch and release



I don't think anyone is trying to defend the courier and most will agree that there are lots of ways they could have handled things better with the OP. My point was that none of the owners can say definitively that the couriers were totally at fault because they were not there. The breeder is hardly likely to say "oh yeah well i expected that to happen because they looked a bit peaky when they left" is he? No I would'nt take it lying down if i was substantially out of pocket but then again if i'd worked and saved hard and made sacrifices to be able to afford animals i would'nt have trust them to a total stranger either, however good their reputation, because I would'nt want to take the risk.


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## Jimmyjayz (Mar 20, 2011)

yes but there were multiple breeders not the same person, the only thing in common was the courier


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## catch and release (Jun 1, 2011)

sheena is a gecko said:


> I don't think anyone is trying to defend the courier and most will agree that there are lots of ways they could have handled things better with the OP. My point was that none of the owners can say definitively that the couriers were totally at fault because they were not there. The breeder is hardly likely to say "oh yeah well i expected that to happen because they looked a bit peaky when they left" is he? No I would'nt take it lying down if i was substantially out of pocket but then again if i'd worked and saved hard and made sacrifices to be able to afford animals i would'nt have trust them to a total stranger either, however good their reputation, because I would'nt want to take the risk.


Some of the posts on this thread are doing just that. The courier in question has not even had the decency to respond on this thread and hopes this whole incident will just blow over and go away. Its only Wild World Reptiles that have had the courage to commit and say what they would do in the same situation. If you cannot trust a supposedly professional courier to morally do the right thing when they screw up it really is a sad state of affairs. Their behaviour is totally unacceptable and there is no excuse for it.


catch and release


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> Exactly - live animals. Not boxes or tables.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know some of the smaller couriers take payment on delivery, as thats the person responsible for payment, but i'm sure some of the larger courier take either payment up front or a deposit, especially for the larger more expensive runs, such as Hamm.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

miss_ferret said:


> il have to do some looking into that on my own i think. iv a friend who sometimes imports horses and some other livestock, according to his insurance they are classed as his property and as such come under 'goods'. it may just be some form of personal insurance though, il have to ask him.
> 
> please dont take this personally because iv quoted your reply as it is honestly not a criticism, but this thread has made me think twice about having an animal couriered in future. id assumed that if the animal died or became ill while under the care of the, or due to the actions of the courier (as long as they where healthy to begin with) then the courier would be liable for the cost of the animal(s).



Different ballgame. Horses are classed as livestock under some law about moving farm animals. Weirdly Dogs are sometimes covered under the same act as they are used as farm working dogs. I'm fairly sure they are legally not allowed to offer transport services for horses without full insurance for each individual moved. might be worth checking into though just to make sure that the transporter is covered properly.

Lizards are however classed as pets and not 'working livestock'.

We used to have a fish shop and we could not insure the fish for losses in transit unless each fish was individually vet checked and paperwork obtained, paperwork was then sent to insurer for quote. usually used for very expensive koi. In transit losses were usually replaced by supplier.




As for the courier company replying to this thread or any other about this topic. If they believer they are in the right and took any legal advice (we're only getting one side of story here remember) they would have been advised to not make any contact or reply to these in any way.


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> Same again unfortunately, they aren't paid. It's like asking someone to make you a cake (perform a service). If they drop the cake or it's not what you wanted, if you haven't made any up front payment you would simply not pay them. UNLESS you had some sort of insurance pre defined for these eventualities. As has already been stated, this doesn't happen with live animal transit.
> It's all in the terms of service/contract.


So BRO you'd say, "oh well, that was bad luck that my £1000 table was damaged, these things happen i'll just get another one, but i sure won't be paying that courier for delivery!" 

....oh, and you can stop pulling those wings of butterflies right now!!

I think the problem is most people, including myself assumed all couriers were insured, there was nothing on the site at the time to say otherwise.

A businesses reputation should also be about the way a company behave when something goes wrong and how they go about rectifying the situation, in this case doing absolutely nothing... but pretending otherwise.

It is a steep learning curve and i do think people need to be aware of what different courier companies offer, if anything, if something does go wrong. Unless you can afford to get each animal vet checked before transportation

I am not sure on the exact numbers, but around 12 animal deaths, from at least 5 different breeders, but there is only 1 common denominator. I don't think a vet looking at one dead animal and not doing a post mortem really sheds any light on what really happened


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## andyb79 (Oct 12, 2011)

*Vet Checks*

I know this is in hindsight, but i have read over on Captivebred that Hamm now offer vets checks to all animals for a fee of 10 Euros, would this not then activate said insurance as animal would of then had a proper check over and have been passed as fit to travel, thus meaning the courier would then be liable for any losses.
This is something to think about for the future for anybody else using this type of service. 
I am glad i read this thread as i had recently got a quote for using this company and will now give it a rethink.

Andy


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

suey said:


> So BRO you'd say, "oh well, that was bad luck that my £1000 table was damaged, these things happen i'll just get another one, but i sure won't be paying that courier for delivery!"
> 
> ....oh, and you can stop pulling those wings of butterflies right now!!
> 
> ...


Why do a post-mortem? Afterall that would be expensive. Especially as it was clearly "sudden death syndrome" :whistling2:

I know the skinks were checked out by a vet but it didn't look like a proper post-mortem had been carried out. 

What people seem most bothered about isn't the deaths themselves, but the lack of communication I think were all grown up enough to know **** happens. But the after service is surprisingly bad. I own a business and have bent over backwards over much much less. I just can't get my head around it at all.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

*O*



suey said:


> So BRO you'd say, "oh well, that was bad luck that my £1000 table was damaged, these things happen i'll just get another one, but i sure won't be paying that courier for delivery!"
> 
> ....oh, and you can stop pulling those wings of butterflies right now!!
> 
> ...


Let's not all fall out here, I really am not interested in Internet battles, but

No I wouldn't let them off with a 1000 pound table that WAS covered by insurance for damage in transit if it was proved that the courier had damaged it.
What I would have done was ensured that this existed as part of the contract of service with the supplier. But a table is an inanimate object, live animals obviously aren't. 
I am NOT defending the courier here by the way. I am explaining that to accuse somebody of doing something (see thread title.....) you need proof.
What proof does anyone have that would 'stand up' to interrogation, that these deaths were caused by the actions of the company involved?
Animals died on/following this trip. Fact.
Animals lived on/following this trip. Fact.

So the animals that didn't die, were they treated differently? We don't know.
Were the animals that died mistreated? We don't know (on here anyway).

The animals that I collected in person from Hamm could have died, two I have paid for never arrived at all and went missing in transit. IT happens.

If someone can be proved 'liable' then they are expected to put right the issue. The problem here is proving the level of liability.

My final word is that I completely understand the upset/trauma of losing expensive and hard sourced animals under these circumstances, however it still stands that there are risks involved in transporting live animals and anybody arranging for this must be prepared for the worst.

I hope a resolution is found to the issues mentioned, good luck....


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Montage_Morphs said:


> Hasnt this courier messed up a few times in the past? I remember Hamm coach trips waaaaaayyy back and there were issues with overheating on the buses and many things died. I have avoided this courier ever since that....


 
Yes I remember that too.


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## Braz (Feb 10, 2011)

miss_ferret said:


> il have to do some looking into that on my own i think. iv a friend who sometimes imports horses and some other livestock, according to his insurance they are classed as his property and as such come under 'goods'. it may just be some form of personal insurance though, il have to ask him.
> 
> please dont take this personally because iv quoted your reply as it is honestly not a criticism, but this thread has made me think twice about having an animal couriered in future. id assumed that if the animal died or became ill while under the care of the, or due to the actions of the courier (as long as they where healthy to begin with) then the courier would be liable for the cost of the animal(s).


Bit off the topic here possibly but I see you mention the movement of horses. If any of you are into horse racing you will know a wonder horse of recent times called Sea the Stars. It was the intention of the owners to run this horse in Dubai's World cup, Americas Breeders cup and also some big money races in Japan. The reason it never left for these races was the inability to find a company willing to insure such a valuable animal. This is on a much smaller scale admittedly but the fact a courier agreed to take these lizards knowing full well what they were worth, they should have had procedures in place in case the job went tits up so to speak and the Ts & Cs should have been made crystal clear before the job was undertaken. Or the customer should have been made to sign a disclaimer to waive the responsibility of the courier under certain circumstances beyond their control. What a mess.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

Braz said:


> Bit off the topic here possibly but I see you mention the movement of horses. If any of you are into horse racing you will know a wonder horse of recent times called Sea the Stars. It was the intention of the owners to run this horse in Dubai's World cup, Americas Breeders cup and also some big money races in Japan. The reason it never left for these races was the inability to find a company willing to insure such a valuable animal. *This is on a much smaller scale admittedly but the fact a courier agreed to take these lizards knowing full well what they were worth*, they should have had procedures in place in case the job went tits up so to speak and the Ts & Cs should have been made crystal clear before the job was undertaken. Or the customer should have been made to sign a disclaimer to waive the responsibility of the courier under certain circumstances beyond their control. What a mess.


this is kind of what i was thinking, some of the horses my friend has imported have, at the time of importing, been worth between £300 and £500 pounds (allowing for exchange rates and so on), around the price the OP paid for his lizards. i dont think the purpose of the animal - pet or working/livestock - should affect the insurance couriers are required to have. if an animals worth £500, its worth £500. what is it or what its going to do shouldnt affect this.

this is obviously going off topic as changing those rules seems to be changing the law territory rather than what one company has and one company dosent.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

miss_ferret said:


> this is kind of what i was thinking, some of the horses my friend has imported have, at the time of importing, been worth between £300 and £500 pounds (allowing for exchange rates and so on), around the price the OP paid for his lizards. i dont think the purpose of the animal - pet or working/livestock - should affect the insurance couriers are required to have. if an animals worth £500, its worth £500. what is it or what its going to do shouldnt affect this.
> 
> this is obviously going off topic as changing those rules seems to be changing the law territory rather than what one company has and one company dosent.



They are classed legally as different thats why. Horses are classed as livestock. Lizards are classed as either wild animals or pets dependant on who is importing / moving them.

Horses are seen to have a value pertaining to their working usefulness.

Lizards are seen to have a value pertaining to their sentimental value as a pet unless they are certificated and valued by an insurance company individually.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

nicnet said:


> They are classed legally as different thats why. Horses are classed as livestock. Lizards are classed as either wild animals or pets dependant on who is importing / moving them.
> 
> Horses are seen to have a value pertaining to their working usefulness.
> 
> Lizards are seen to have a value pertaining to their sentimental value as a pet unless they are certificated and valued by an insurance company individually.


yes i understand that, im saying i dont see the point in the different classifications.


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## lewisdark86 (May 9, 2010)

i am so sorry for your loss i can't get over they way sum people go on. i hope this person sort this out for you keep us posted m8


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

miss_ferret said:


> yes i understand that, im saying i dont see the point in the different classifications.


They are classed differently so that you can put your dog in a car and drive it down a road. It allows for movement of pets without licence to do so. Would you really want to have to get a licence to take your dog for a walk, or to transport feeder insects? By your point of view they would be put in the same category of 'animal'

Moving certain livestock though does require that whoever is moving them be either licenced or certain things have to be in place. Ie, you are not allowed to transport a horse in anything except an adapted vehicle unless they are going to slaughter (yes it does happen) then they have to be in a ventilated 'cattle truck'.

Different animals have to be classified as different and require different rules to move them. If you move a DWA species snake for eg, you have to phone the police, give them all the certificate numbers, tell them the exact route your going and movement times etc. 

Also applies to anyone taking animals to market as far as I'm aware.


Oddly if you knock over a dog, your required by law to report it to the police as they are still classed as 'working animals'. If you knock over a cat on the other hand you are not obliged to report it as they are still classed as 'ferral animals'


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

nicnet said:


> They are classed differently so that you can put your dog in a car and drive it down a road. It allows for movement of pets without licence to do so. Would you really want to have to get a licence to take your dog for a walk, or to transport feeder insects? By your point of view they would be put in the same category of 'animal'
> 
> Moving certain livestock though does require that whoever is moving them be either licenced or certain things have to be in place. Ie, you are not allowed to transport a horse in anything except an adapted vehicle *unless they are going to slaughter (yes it does happen)* then they have to be in a ventilated 'cattle truck'.
> 
> ...


your not getting the point im trying to make, what im saying is a dont think its fair that if i pay someone to move a horse worth £500 and it becomes ill/dies while in there care i can get my money back, whereas if i pay someone to move a lizard worth £500 and it becomes ill/dies in there care they are not liable for the cost of the animal.

regarding the bit iv highlighted in bold, iv worked with horses for over 10 years , im well aware of the less storybook sides of the horse world.

this will be my last post in this thread as its going more and more off topic. i have had the questions answered that i wanted answered.


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

The said courier is very well respected, couriers a lot of animals safely and has been doing so for a while. There will always be deaths involved it's inevitable, just think about how many animals they go through (that will allways be stressed from the journey). Evan the best couriers *will* have had casualtys if they tell you they haven't there lying.

it's a bit unfair that the courier is being named and shamed and although i am sad for your loss i think it's out of order that you've posted this publicly.


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## catch and release (Jun 1, 2011)

fardilis said:


> The said courier is very well respected, couriers a lot of animals safely and has been doing so for a while. There will always be deaths involved it's inevitable, just think about how many animals they go through (that will allways be stressed from the journey). Evan the best couriers *will* have had casualtys if they tell you they haven't there lying.
> 
> it's a bit unfair that the courier is being named and shamed and although i am sad for your loss i think it's out of order that you've posted this publicly.



Its this kind of post that makes my blood boil, The OP has been jerked around for a year by this supposedly 'respected courier'. I have no axe to grind about the courier in question but i hate to see decent patient people having the piss ripped out of them. The OP has the patience of a saint as i would have instigated legal proceeding's long ago. I think its important that people know when any company behaves in an immoral way.

catch and release


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

if they managed to kill cresties, something must have gone very wrong!

12 dead animals on one run isn't an accident, its a disgrace


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> The animals that I collected in person from Hamm could have died, two I have paid for never arrived at all and went missing in transit. IT happens.


How the heck do two animals go "missing in transit"!! It shouldn't just happen:gasp:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

andy007 said:


> How the heck do two animals go "missing in transit"!! It shouldn't just happen:gasp:


They went to the wrong people, mislabeled by the shipper, since been found in a German shop...does show that mistakes can occur though.


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> They went to the wrong people, mislabeled by the shipper, since been found in a German shop...does show that mistakes can occur though.


That's pants At least they lived though.


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## Ailurus (Jun 8, 2007)

Sorry, only just come back on here to check this thread, seems like a lot has happened. I would address all of you individually, but this would take me forever, so instead; 

A MASSIVE thanks to everyone who has posted up their kind words, advice and support. 

To everyone else; 
Whoever it was who posted saying it's unfair to name and shame them. I havent disclosed who they were at all, in fact the couriers name and company has not been mentioned in this thread. The fact that about 80% of all the pms I've had have started with 'It's -insertcouriername- isn't it?' Suggests that they aren't the brilliant godlike company a lot of you are making them out to be. 
Yes I massively regret the decision, so all those saying 'why use a courier in the first place' you should have picked them up yourself' etc. YES I know I should have, but considering the amount of people who posted saying how great that courier was I made an incorrect decision. I assumed they were insured and as most people had not encountered problems I didn't think I would. and I trusted that if any problems did occur they would be sorted. I made an incorrect decision, sorry I'm only human.

My problem with this courier, is not that they killed my animals, mistakes happen, and it is not that they did not give me a refund, if they had stated that they weren't covered for deaths when I contacted them originally I wouldn't have minded as much. Its the FACT that they promised me compensation on numerous occasions and then ignored me. That is not how a good business works. 

I am sorry but I fail to understand how some of you can be defending a company with such poor customer skills and who have treated people so badly.

Someone complained that I had posted this story loads of times; I already stated why I have posted this 'repeatedly' (it was actually 3) I posted it up with the courier mentioned, it was then removed but I was not told it was removed and not told why, so I posted it again. It was then removed again and I was told it was because I was naming and shaming. So I removed the names, contacted an admin, they gave me permission, so I posted it again. Its not as if I've been spamming the forums, so calm down. 

Yes I should have seeked legal advice, but considering for about 6 months of that year I was waiting to hear from the insurance company, and we all know how long insurance companies take, it took me 10months to hear back after a guy drove into me. I also am currently studying for my degree so have loads of work to do, and I actually have a life as well, so you know can't do all these things. Yes I would have liked to get it resolved asap, but considering taking the legal route costs money, which I have very little of, I havent been able to do that. So calm down everyone, I fail to see why some people seem to be being so negative, condescending and angry towards me. Just chill out, I'm not here for an argument and I'm not an angry person so I won't rise to it  

still no message from the courier though, not good.


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## catch and release (Jun 1, 2011)

Ailurus said:


> Sorry, only just come back on here to check this thread, seems like a lot has happened. I would address all of you individually, but this would take me forever, so instead;
> 
> A MASSIVE thanks to everyone who has posted up their kind words, advice and support.
> 
> ...



Mate some people on here would defend what the Natzis did to the jews, and then still have the brass neck to be abusive to you when you pointed out to them politely it was wrong. Don't loose any sleep over people like that

catch and release


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

catch and release said:


> Mate some people on here would defend what the Natzis did to the jews, and then still have the brass neck to be abusive to you when you pointed out to them politely it was wrong. Don't loose any sleep over people like that
> 
> catch and release


well said :2thumb:


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## sazzle (Jun 3, 2008)

i really hope the courier in question contacts you, although i highly doubt they will 

i don't even need to pm to ask which courier as i had an 'experience' with them recently and vowed never to use them again, they are rude and unhelpful, i'm sticking with AC Reptile Chauffeurs now and wish i'd used them in the first place x


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## olivine (Feb 5, 2009)

fardilis said:


> The said courier is very well respected, couriers a lot of animals safely and has been doing so for a while. There will always be deaths involved it's inevitable, just think about how many animals they go through (that will allways be stressed from the journey). Evan the best couriers *will* have had casualtys if they tell you they haven't there lying.
> 
> it's a bit unfair that the courier is being named and shamed and although i am sad for your loss i think it's out of order that you've posted this publicly.


Just a couple of points from an impartial observer (I don't know the OP, nor have I ever used the courier in question). Firstly, the OP has not named the courier: indeed, he clearly stated that he was not going to and the thread that identified them was posted by someone else. However, the courier has himself posted a thread on this subject thereby making the incident public knowledge anyway, so I don't see why this thread is "out of order".

Secondly, this is not the first incident where a relatively large number of fatalities have occurred while animals are in transit from Hamm. The last time I recall it happening involved the same individual, though admittedly it was on a coach to the Hamm show rather than involving the courier side of his business. If nothing else, I think that this thread may be valuable in highlighting the fact that, as these repeated incidents show, there is always a risk attached to transporting animals. It might therefore enable members to make a more informed decision on whether they personally feel that the risk is worth it.


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## Lil_nightmare (Feb 26, 2011)

I have used this courier once and my animals arrived fine and dandy

Will i use them again? No

Why? Purely on the reason when i went with him to get them from the van the poor furries in the carriers (rabbits etc) were not secured at all so there was nothing at all to stop them sliding all over the place when he went round corners etc.

This to me is not right especially when the animals belong to other people.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

sazzle said:


> i really hope the courier in question contacts you, although i highly doubt they will
> 
> i don't even need to pm to ask which courier as i had an 'experience' with them recently and vowed never to use them again, they are rude and unhelpful, i'm sticking with* AC Reptile Chauffeurs* now and wish i'd used them in the first place x



used that company myself. First class service, and they kept phoning me to let me know 'they were delayed by 10 mins' in trafic. Trafic had clamed they may be 5 mins early....Flat tyre, on way but will be half hour later than originally though etc.. They even gave me a showed me a copy of the 'in transit' check sheet and brought my lizard in to check over before they left. Couldn't fault them one bit.


I never once did ask them about their insurance policy though so shows you how easy it is to get missed. I just presumed they were insured for losses and never asked.

I think this entire story has tought us that we need to be checking on this before letting people transport any animal. Would be handy to get a copy of their policy in the post before organising any transport.


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## The Doug (Aug 2, 2010)

Feel for the buyer, but feel even more for the poor specimens that perished. Whenever humans are involved there will always be the chance of things going wrong!


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## Hedgie (Jun 7, 2011)

I can't believe the courier has done this and I cant believe there are some people on here that cant sympathise with your situation, but then i'm guessing they haven't been through what you have.
I would definitely not like to be on the receiving end of that courier! 
I still cant believe they would have died so suddenly? Makes you think whether they had a couple of skinks that had died and they had just replaced them with your ones, it is a long shot and it is funny that they had become suddenly ill soon after your complaint...
In my experience with numerous companies when they refuse to reply straight away (like all complaints are meant to be dealt with) they have something to hide!

Well I hope you get a result end of it, just keep persuing it! Also try to take it further and let them know what your actions are whilst doing so, so they have the opportunity to compensate you (even though you have given them a year, but as they say better late than never!)

Keep us posted 

:-D


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Hedgie said:


> I can't believe the courier has done this and I cant believe there are some people on here that cant sympathise with your situation, but then i'm guessing they haven't been through what you have.
> I would definitely not like to be on the receiving end of that courier!
> I still cant believe they would have died so suddenly? Makes you think whether they had a couple of skinks that had died and they had just replaced them with your ones, it is a long shot and it is funny that they had become suddenly ill soon after your complaint...
> In my experience with numerous companies when they refuse to reply straight away (like all complaints are meant to be dealt with) they have something to hide!
> ...



I can't believe your 'bumping' a thread that is nearly a month old :lol2:

Last reply was 28th of november.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

nicnet said:


> I can't believe your 'bumping' a thread that is nearly a month old :lol2:
> 
> Last reply was 28th of november.


Some things should NEVER be forgotten. I hope the company that did this goes out of business and never screws over another poor unsuspecting person again in doing so.

Wow....a whole 2 weeks goes by and a thread is considered "dead"......any normal forum's rule is 3 months LOL!!! How many days passed between 11/28 and 12/17??? Last time I checked it took more than 20 days to equal "nearly a month".


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## Janos (Oct 26, 2009)

Has there been any progress on this since though? I mean it's horrible what happened, and I think the OP, as someone said before has the patience of a zen master going through this.

Just the fact that the courier involved have screwed you around so badly...can't help but be angry at that. I hope they go out of business.


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## Jimmyjayz (Mar 20, 2011)

right i have been thinking about this, and am fairly close to certain that one of the conditions that defra inisit on is insurance and they will not be talking about poxy car insurance they will be refering to insurance to cover the animals, you can get this you can get insurance for anything they will just wright you a specific policy for your requirement.:2thumb:


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## Hedgie (Jun 7, 2011)

nicnet said:


> I can't believe your 'bumping' a thread that is nearly a month old :lol2:
> 
> Last reply was 28th of november.



I didn't mean to bump a thread that the last post was nearly a month ago, this is a on going issue for the past year and I have only just read it.

U also replied which then bumped it again to more responses today  always good!

But any ways, doesn't matter any way. :-D

(oops just bumped again!)


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

lol true.


As to the topic. personally if I was so annoyed about something I wouldn't be yacking about it on a forum after a year, I'd have taken them to court already.

I really can't see the point of a one sided argument on this when there is so obviously more to it than whats being said.

As OP said to the courier in this thread. Grow a pair and sort out your problems.


If this is really such an issue to the OP then get it to court, why repeatedly post it in a forum just to badmouth a company that has probably been told not to reply to it if they had taken any advice from either their insurance company or legal advice.


Sorry but I ran my own company before also and was accused of a few different things that at the end of the day had nothing to do with me. I sold someone some fish once and the next day had them in accusing me of wiping out their entire fish tank with diseased fish, took me to court (yips it got that far) and in court they happened to mention that they had cleaned out the entire fish tank on the same day that they bought the fish. The dead fish were due to the tank clean and not from one lot of fish I had sold them. The whole incident of them walking around town telling everyone who would listen taht I sold diseased fish cost me a lot of reputation and trade. 

If OP wants this dealt with, take it to court and stop badmouthing a company who would be in no legal position to reply in a public forum. Once the court case is done, THEN come back and let people know what happened. Till then your actually putting yourself into a very bad legal position by putting it on here.


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## Hedgie (Jun 7, 2011)

nicnet said:


> lol true.
> 
> 
> As to the topic. personally if I was so annoyed about something I wouldn't be yacking about it on a forum after a year, I'd have taken them to court already.
> ...


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## jennas (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi, i had my beared drangon sent from the usa and he got here fine, it did cost alot so i know how u feel and then to have nothing at the end of it well words can not explain how u must feel. stick to your guns keep on writing letters and phoneing them dont let them forget about u, there's a saying out of sight out of mined so keep on at them. Good luck.:thumb:


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## Janos (Oct 26, 2009)

The OP mentioned he was a student and how he couldn't afford the legal route....


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Janos said:


> The OP mentioned he was a student and how he couldn't afford the legal route....



That to me is a total copout. simply as a student has access to free legal aid as well as citizens advice and a student union rep who would advise also.

It also cost £75 last I checked to take someone to small claims court, and the defendant would have to travel to wherever the claim was submitted. They would also have all the court costs to pay if found in claimants favour.

There is more to it going on here. 

yes I feel bad for the lizards, but going on about it on a public forum is simply leaving the OP open for a claim of 'defamation of character' if the company involved wanted to pin him to a wall. He's doing himself absolutely no favours at all.

From what I've seen on this its easier for the OP to come on here and yap than it is for him to get his finger out and actually do something about it. Going to citizens advice would take effort and I get the feeling that its just too much effort to go down there. Its easier to sit at a computer and harp on about it in a forum.


There is another old phrase. Put up or shut up.


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