# Flesh removal tests - GRAPHIC



## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The following posts will contain graphic images of dead rodents and later on reptiles in various states of decay.

If you do not wish to see these images PLEASE do not continue to read the post.

You have been warned, i would hope that you do not hold either myself or the forum responsible should you choose to continue and be disturbed by the images.

DISCLAIMER:
The following images are of previously euthanised rodents or of animals that have died through natural causes. NO animals have been harmed in the process.


Now that's done i'll upload the first images.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

For the first test i decided to go AGAINST current advice and try a freshly defrosted multi-mammate.
The subject has been partially skinned. I have left the paws, ears, tail and a small section of fur on the nose - this is to see what effect the mealworms has on these areas and because it was quick and easy.

The multi-mammate:










I decided that for ease of removal later on i would put the subject into a small plastic tray within the main tub:










For this test i have chosen mealworms. The main reason for this choice is that they are easy to source. I have also been informed that dermestids do not remove the flesh from python skeletons at a rate anywhere near they would any other prey item (the reason for this is undetermined). For those reasons i would like to avoid sourcing the dermestids unless neccesary.

For this test i have added 0.5 killograms of mealworms to the tub, directly over the subject carcass:


















As i mentioned at the beginning of this post i was advised to let the carcass dry out and remove as much flesh as possible myself before adding the beetles. I will try that in the next test, should this one fail.

I will update over the course of the next few days.


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## bloodxonxyourxhands (Dec 12, 2006)

awesome, i'l follow the updates. yes, its gross, but very interesting. i like how you can see all the internal organs, its really amazing.

worthwhile everyone having a look, learn something


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

wow, isall i can say, you made a brilliant job of skinning the mouse, looks perfect.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

The mouse picture was fine...but that side on shot of the worms . Sorry, something about them just creeps me out.

Good luck with your experiments though, hope you find something that works


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Very interested as to what happens, and the skinned rodent looks very interesting, having never seen a skined one before. 

Jay


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Thanks for the replies. I wanted to leave it a few hours before replying just in case anyone got upset.

It is one of those subjects that seems to be gross enough to draw most (not everyone) peoples attention.

Dan, thanks for the compliment on the skinning. It wasn't a great job though, just a quick effort. Normally i would take off the full nose and cut the paws off with the skin and i'd run the blade down the length of the tail from the sexual organs. I'll do that on the next test so you can see what i mean.

Intravenous, i suspect the later pics of the mice wont be so easy for some people to look at!!

Jay, you're right the way animals (inc us) have all our organs packe in is fascinating. Allways amazes me that if you pop the internal layer when skinning you can never get all the bits that fall out back in!!!!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

it'll be an interesting experiment, i tried something similar with a dead pike id found(pike not pikey :wink: ), i ended up burying it and digging it up as a kid, didn't go well

It'll also be interesting to see what damage the meal worms actually do after all the horror stories on peoples reps


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2007)

very interesting ile be following this


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

Can i just ask what the point of this experiment is?
what's your hypothesis?


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## oldelpaso (Nov 28, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> Can i just ask what the point of this experiment is?
> what's your hypothesis?


See here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/18596-removing-flesh.html

Gotta say, neat job with the skinning. I have a couple of snakes in the freezer that I'd be interested in doing something similar with. Will be keen to see how your experiment goes 8)


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

oldelpaso said:


> See here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/18596-removing-flesh.html


TY


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## oldelpaso (Nov 28, 2006)

Dan, are you intending on doing anything with the skins of the snakes you're going to work on? Or are you mainly interested in working with just the skeleton..?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The plan is to mount the skeleton with the skin in front of it. There will then be a small engraved plaque with the common name and scientific name in front of those.
It will all be mounted on a piece of stained pine.

Not that i've thought about it much though, lol


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

i saw the start of that post but never got round to answering..personally think it's a bit odd and doing that to animals takes a special person. however it can be fascinating, just wouldn't want to do it...

are you going to degrease the bones? or leave the oils? some think it helps to keep the bone from cracking but i wouldn't like the idea of a slimey skeleton..


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

BELIAL said:


> i saw the start of that post but never got round to answering..personally think it's a bit odd and doing that to animals takes a special person. however it can be fascinating, just wouldn't want to do it...
> 
> are you going to degrease the bones? or leave the oils? some think it helps to keep the bone from cracking but i wouldn't like the idea of a slimey skeleton..


Thats fine, it's all about personal opinions again and i wouldnt try to take yours away from you.  

The bones will be cleaned and then sprayed with a thin coat of varnish. I have been told that this helps keep the bones from drying out further after i have cleaned them.


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

varnish? hadn't heard that one but it makes sense


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## bribrian (Jan 12, 2006)

Yorkshire's very own Jeffrey Dalmer...lol... interesting stuff mate.....


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

certainly be interesting to see:

What produces the best results,
How the finished product looks,
and how much it costs, these "little projects" are buggers for dragging opn and then, come the end, yuou realise youve spent a fair bit of cash :lol:


Good luck!


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## Cara (Oct 30, 2006)

how long do you think it will take for the mealworms to munch through the mouse?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Ok, so the remains were removed from the tub this morning.

To answer Cara's question, a lot less time than i expected!!!! 

The following pictures are of the animal carcass after being in the tub of meal worms for 24 hrs.

This is ALL that was left in the tub:











Believe me when i tell you there was NOTHING else left in the tub - it had all been eaten!!

Some close ups of the skull:


















And a couple with the lower jaw connected to the main skull:



















As you can see, the whole process happened MUCH faster than i anticipated.

I will next try a large rat (it's just defrosting now)


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

thats immpressive speed, where the other limbs in the larger tub too?


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## klair328 (Nov 15, 2006)

wow rapid resaults!!! im gna try that lol nice gut loading way lol


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

jaysnakeman said:


> thats immpressive speed, where the other limbs in the larger tub too?


The tub was emptied and the contents sifted through as i expected to find other bits in there - i was wrong :shock: 

That first picture shows every bone fragment i could find.


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## darren.j.b (Sep 20, 2006)

i have also tried this with a small mouse and the same happened, im gonna try on a snake that passed away not so long ago, il let you no what happens, are you gonna do any reptiles?


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

I didnt expect things to happen so fast.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

*Test 2*

Ok, so after the RAPID destruction of the last carcass i have moved up in size for this test.
Hopefully this time i'll have enough remains to recreate the skeleton :lol2: 

The skinned subject:










Added to the tub at 5pm :










This test is to see just how fast they can do a larger item. I will be checking every few hours this time.

After test one it has become apparent that a half kilo of mealworms are a devastating force on such a small animal as a young multi-mammate.
I am unsure if the bone structure was eaten so fast/easily because the carcass was still fresh. 
For that reason, after this test with a larger subject i will move to a smaller quantity of mealworms. I will split the half kilo into 2, 200g tubs (the remaining 100g will be fed to hungry lizards). 
The first tub will have a dried out carcass and the second a fresh carcass.


As a side note, Dan, you will notice i skinned this one "properly". You can see i severed the paws at the joint from underneath the skin. The tail and ears have also been removed on this one. From here i could go on to stuff the fur to recreate the animal if wanted/needed.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

darren.j.b said:


> i have also tried this with a small mouse and the same happened, im gonna try on a snake that passed away not so long ago, il let you no what happens, are you gonna do any reptiles?


Hi, i presume you havent read the thread on this in the snake section then 

The whole purpose of these tests is to establish the best methods for doing reptillian subjects


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## BELIAL (Nov 10, 2006)

They made short work of that...you may find that mealworms are just too destructive..they have some impressive mandibles...
can't believe they stripped it so fast!!


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I know, i am stunned at how fast they went through it.

I'll have to see how it goes with the later tests.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

any update on the current state of it? 

i think the speed that they ate the mouse is really astonishing, i thought they would have had the whole carcass, with just the majority of the flesh/offal eated by now. 

on a side not is that your dinner on the table?? :shock:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

also, are you heating the subject at all, there is a little bit of condensation on the inside of the box, so i just wondered?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The tub with the worms in is on a windowsill above a radiator - and more importantly, below a window.

I haven't measured the temperatures as all the subjects will be put in the same place. Can do if anyone thinks it'll be important.

BTW, thats the remains of my pizza and bhajis from last night :lol2: 

As it is now 3 hours i reckon it's as good a time as any to check this test.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Ok,

3 hours in :


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

ewww, thaqt nearly turned my stomach. it amazes me how fast they are. i cannot really tell, have they eaten all of the guts?

just wondering about the temp, obviously they are more active when warm, so i thought you may have thought ahead, with a matt or somthing.

i'm presuming that the mealworms are a bit too destructive for the real thing then lol


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

:lol2: 

I did warn you the pics wouldn't be pretty when i started this  

As yet, i don't know if they are too destructive or if i didnt give them enough credit the first time. 500g is obviously way too many for a reptile carcass, that will have played a large part in the speed aswell.

Just have to see how subsequent tests go


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

yeah, but you was worried earlier, because of losing the cartledge, and they at the bones, i wouldnt personally use them
any news on the dermested (sp)beetles, or what about testing maggots?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Easy tiger :lol2: 

No point in rushing off just yet. I'll finish this series of tests first before looking to the next options.
I don't want to miss out because i haven't thoroughly tested my options


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

ok i'll calm down lol 

does it smell as bad as it looks?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Doesnt smell much at all really.

Makes sense though as it hasnt had time to decompose as of yet.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

i was thinking more the ammonia smell with mealworm poo, hows it dooing now? just say if you want, no need for pics


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Wow... so with the Multi Mammate they ate the ribs and spinal cord ? Sorry... I may have missed a post or two reading through.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I'll check again at 11pm (6hr point) - there will be pics  

The smell isn't noticable, but then that's why i put them under the window.

Yeah the multi ribs and cord were eaten, only the skull and some fragments left.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

ok thanks, will wait until then. 

are you not even slightly effected by handling partially eaten rodents? i mean i would be a bit ewww, and prolly would use 2foot forceps lol, 

thansk for answering my questons, and posting your results btw


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Doesn't bother me. The rats dead already so it doesnt care, which is the only bit that would get me.

No different to a piece of meat from the freezer


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

i meant the manky half eaten rat lol, not the ethics. 

can i ask, how do you tan the skin,


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I wasn't talking about ethics, i was trying to explain. It's just a piece of meat, if i think of it any other way (ie as a live rat) then i may start to have a problem with it.

You tan the skin by putting it on a sun bed:lol2:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Ok, 

For those that are interested the surface temperature of the mass of mealworms and test subject is 76 degrees.

After 6 hours:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

i think i prefered it when you put the mouse in, and shiny white bones came out lol

i see what you mean, sorry for the cofusion. 

have to check by tomorrow night now, working 2moz  

Dan


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Eww to the worm in the eye socket :razz:. Its hard to tell from the photos...does it look like the bones are still intact?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Yeah. sorry about that, the pics aren't great.

It would appear that while there are a few on the surface they actually prefer to be inside the body. They are essentially working outwards.

I have picked a crap rat for this one as the neck has been broken, other than that though there doesn't seem to be much, if any bone damage.

I suspect that the only reason the previous test failed so badly is because they were underestimated and the subject was left in too long.

I'll check again at the 9 hr point i think and then i may remove the remains until tomorrow morning, when i will re-introduce it. This is just so i can keep an eye on proceedings without it getting out of hand.

As a side note i am SERIOUSLY impressed at the rate at which they are working, simply stunning.


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## skimpy (Nov 22, 2006)

As you know, I read the thread in the snake section, and I am so proud of myself for seeing this whole thread through...thus far. I was warned at the beginning, but

   

Man that is gross! 

Hope you get the results you are hoping for....I won't be back here for a look again!! No offence intended!


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

skimpy said:


> No offence intended!


None taken, it's not for everyone


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

very interesting!

Just a thought though, someone suggested using maggots, the don't tend to eat much flesh until it becomes rotten/starts to decompose so using maggots would probably be a very smelly way of doing it 

Keep us posted!


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## scarlettvegetable (Jan 4, 2006)

Lol, free gore! :lol:

Anyhow, I didn't realise the mealworms would get through that mouse as quickly as they did! It will be interesting to see what state the skeleton of the rat is in when they have finished.


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## Gemificus (Jan 26, 2007)

Is that it is that the last post?? no way!!!

i have to say interesting work your doing there, Looking forward to further developments,


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## kingkongtom1 (Mar 28, 2006)

*.*

Wow she would kill me if she caught me trying this, very interesting retic


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## bjherp (Jul 10, 2005)

reticulatus said:


> None taken, it's not for everyone


Interesting Results and good pictures,

Shows how damaging it could be leaving meal worms in with your reptiles. Take note.


Keep up the excellent experiment reticulatus.

www.reptilekeeping.com


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Thanks for the replies.

Ok, pics from 19hrs in:


















It's worth noting that there is a considerable amount of dead mealworms that are actually inside the rats chest cavity. I'm not positive as to why this is but there are still plenty left in the tub so i'm not concerned


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

I would guess they are dead because of the humidity. mealworms like to be kept dry. if you get too much moisture in the tub you can end up loosing a whole batch. maybe try gutting the next one as well, since that is where a lot of the moisture will be coming from. less work for them too.


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## Venomous Poison (Jan 12, 2007)

im totally grossed out right about now lol but its one of those things i find truley fascinating


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Maybe they ate themselves to death :razz:. Is it possible that they transform after a huge meal? And is that worm poo all over the corpse :roll:?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I agree, the humidity is likely to be the killer. I suspect that the multi was no problem because it was much smaller.

And yes, that is worm poo - nice, i know.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

tigercub2005 said:


> im totally grossed out right about now lol but its one of those things i find truley fascinating


I was actually expecting to get some negative reputation points for this series of posts, luckily i have had none either way


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

There's no reason for neg rep Dan, what your doing has ben explained properly and warnings put up. Its very interesting indeed.  

But still a bit


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## Venomous Poison (Jan 12, 2007)

yeah just a bit ....but interesting and educational at the same time teehee


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

reticulatus said:


> It would appear that while there are a few on the surface they actually prefer to be inside the body. They are essentially working outwards.


That is actually a very interesting comment given all the talk about how a mealworm has killed my reptile. Its eaten its way out blah blah blah.... Suggests to me that if the subject is dead and the mealies eat from inside out that it would be very easy to see why someone would think they ate the lizard! 


Supports my thoughts! 

: victory:


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## Gemificus (Jan 26, 2007)

Just a note to say i'm not grossed out in the slightist, i'm fasanated to see the final results in how long it actaully takes the meal worm to eat to the bone, 

can we go back to the post someone left about the smell, as it started to leave any noticable smells yet?
also were did you keep the rat over night as you said you were going to remove it instead of taking the risk?
also is there much noise? as on movies it seams that mealworm eating flesh can be quite noisy


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## Penny (Dec 12, 2006)

I enjoyed following the thread right up to the last two pictures, i feel a bit sick now though 

great thread though well done


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Gemificus said:


> can we go back to the post someone left about the smell, as it started to leave any noticable smells yet?
> also were did you keep the rat over night as you said you were going to remove it instead of taking the risk?
> also is there much noise? as on movies it seams that mealworm eating flesh can be quite noisy


Firstly, i'd like to apologise - i fell asleep last night so didnt remove the rat. However it was still in the same state as when last checked.

This afternoon we noticed it had started to smell, so this evening i removed the rat and then poured the contents of the tub into a siv. I have sifted off the considerable amounts of worm poo. The poo had started to congeal into a nasty smelling paste which i think was starting to kill off the worms.

With this renewed habitat lacking the excess humidity i hope to see some swifter movement over the course of tonight.

There is little to no noise coming from the tub, just what you'd expect from worms moving around.


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## Nursey (Feb 27, 2005)

i,m finding this thread very interesting even my son has been reading it though he is a morbid lil git anyway lol
but i love seeing stuff like this and defo not queasy yet


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I'll do an update when i'm ready


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

u said 5 mins 1/2 hour ago lmao, wheres my update :lol: :lol: :d :lol: :lol:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Ok, so i have just done what has been the smelliest and ickiest job so far with these tests.

I have removed the carcass and cleaned off all the dead worms and as much of the poo that had formed a paste onto the skeleton as possible. While i was there i also removed the majority of the remaining stomach contents. Apart from the heart, just felt like i should leave that it - not sure why in hindsight.

Anywho, this is what the freshly "cleaned" remains look like now, after 30 hrs:


























With some luck we should start to see a renewed sense of vigour from the remaining worms.


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

Aye come on Dan! :bash:

:lol:


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

Damn you! I was putting that reply up whilst you were doing that!

Still pretty impressive for a days work.... How many mealies on average are you using?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

LOL

It started as a half kilo but i removed a handfull this afternoon and gave
them to one of the lizards as he looked hungry. So, 0.5kilo - 1handfull


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

wow, thats looking better still  but better.

how much longer do you think it will need?

cheers for the continual updates

Dan


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

To be honest i'm not sure, the initial explosion of action happened before the skeleton got bogged down with poo and the stomach contents were opened up.
Things should start to happen a bit quicker again now, i hope.


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

to speed it up you could try rotating the mealies? I guess quite a few get kinda full after a while... if you rotated the rat through say 3-4 tubs of mealies you might get quicker results?


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

how big are the snakes you hope to to do this on?(my appologies if you have already said)


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

That's actually a very valid point that i'd not thought of......

I'll try that on one of the following tests, if i do any.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The snakes vary in size from a few inches to around 10 feet. There is also a 3 foot lizard i will be doing, along with some smaller ones.


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

so you will need a fairly enormous quantity of meal worms then lol so at the moment you are achieving around 0.5kg of cleaned rodent per 0.5kg of mealworms per day roughly, omg that ten footer is gunna be messy and long winded lol


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Yeah, i'll be looking at around 5 kilos of mealworms for the big ones. However, unlike these tests i will be removing as much as i can by hand first.
The skeleton will then be checked on repeatedly.

It's all been a bit relaxed with these tests because, in fairness, i don't much care if things go wrong. 

When the proper skeletons are added it will be a whole new ball game.


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## Ukjay (Mar 1, 2005)

what sort of methods have you used in the past for snake skeletons?? i am very interested to know for future reference


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

so how much flesh can you actually remove from a snake then? i ask because i have worked as a butcher in the past and imagine that due to the skeletal structure of a snake it may be difficult to remove much beyond the skin and all the large organs without damaging the rest


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

The only other method i have tried was on a burmese skull.

I boiled it. Unfortunately i lost too many pieces in amongst the loose flesh so i was unable to piece it back together. It becomes the worlds hardest jigsaw puzzle.

This is the first time i have used and other methods and i am happy with the results.

As it stands now i will look to use the mealworms. I'll strip the skeleton as much as possible and then use the worms to clean off the remaining bits. Once that's done i'll wash the bones in a light hydrogen peroxide solution, followed by a rinse with warm water. They will then be dried and painted with varnish. 
This should keep the bones in a good state and the varnish should help to keep it all together.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Being a butcher you use a big knife though, i'll be using a scalpel  I should be able to get a fair amount off.


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> Being a butcher you use a big knife


well yeah that is true lol, i was just thinking that the muscles in a snake which would make up most of the flesh you would want to remove would be quite awkward to access and remove easily although i suppose if you were willing to put enough time into it you could get it pretty bare


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Without going in to too much detail, you can compare the snakes' body to a fish. By that i mean inside the rib cage the flesh is very thin and with care/patience you can fold the skin down from the spine on the top down the sides.
I've had some prior experience playing with dead specimens, i've just never tried to clean them off so precisely before.


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

oh right i have done quite a bit of fishmongery too, so do you plan on cutting down the spine and then using a similar technique to the one used to fillet flat fish like sole and plaice? if you took your time i suppose this method would yield good results


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

That's the plan yes, whether it will be successfull i'm not sure as yet. Time will tell


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

well good luck im sure it wont be too difficult as long as your patient which based purely on you doing these tests in the first place you must be, i hope the end result is as imformative as you hoped it would be


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

*waits eagly fornext update* 

Its very entriging so far, can't belive that its going so quickly was expecting a much longer duration.

Jay


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## Venomous Poison (Jan 12, 2007)

i know its gross but i wanna see more pics/updates


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

*sneeks in to check for updates*

/end shifty


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Sorry folks, been a busy day.

I'll do an update once i've caught up on whats been happening on here.


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## Venomous Poison (Jan 12, 2007)

ur just trying to keep us in suspence really arent u ? hehe


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Ok,

As of 21:00 i have stopped this test.

The following photo's are of the remains after 52hrs with the mealworms:


































I have decided to stop this test for a few reasons. The first was this was really only a test to establish just how much and how fast the worms could work, it did not need to be cleaned thoroughly. Secondly i was losing more and more worms every minute they were in there. This was due to the large amounts of humidity caused by the larger prey item and the stomach contents.

In the above photo's you can clearly see several areas that hae been cleaned quite well (leg bone, some of the ribs and parts of the tail). These areas were ALL dry areas (the clean ribs were dried when i cleaned up the remains during the last update).

The overall conclusion i have come to in the 2 tests i have run are that mealworms are perfectly capable of doing the job i require of them. I will need to keep them under close watch though and i will be cleaning the skeletons as much as possible before adding the worms. I will also be leaving the remains to dry for a while before adding the worms to reduce the levels of humidity as much as possible.

I think that pretty much concludes this topic on my part. Feel free to ask any questions.

I will open a new topic when i am ready to begin on a reptillian carcass. I have yet to decide which one to go with first. It will probably be a medium sized lizard, perhaps a sailfin?


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## Venomous Poison (Jan 12, 2007)

pretty interesting tho....they cleaned them ribs up good!


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## Cara (Oct 30, 2006)

It looks like in the pictures that the mealworms have eaten some of the bones of both the mouse and the the rat - obviously you would have noticed that (it was in no way meant to sound sarcastic incase it does ) so I assume you are not worried about them eating part of the reptiles skeleton? 


 I'm finding this all very  but also very interesting


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

In the first test i under estimated the ability of the worms so yes they had a right old munch on the bones. I also feel that the bones were soft due to me not drying the carcass out first.

There will be no under estimating them from now on and the carcass will be dried out before adding the worms.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Maybe you could bake the remains lightly before adding worms next time? It would probably help remove water from the body.


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## Cara (Oct 30, 2006)

Maybe you should try it with a dried out corpse just to be sure - I'm positive we would all follow the thread with baited breath, lol


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Wow this is really interesting, just goes to show the power of those horrible little worms! I can see how if undisgested properly by a rep with weak stomach acid that it could easily start to munch its way out! not that im saying all cases have this happen but it looks totally possible!!

good luck with the larger skeletons, i had an old science teacher who used to rebuild road kill, i wonder how he defleshed those?

Even if it doesnt go quite to plan, at least you'll have some well gutloaded mealies to feed your reps!!!


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Don't forget the mealies have been eating dead flesh. I don't want to get into a debate about them on this thread, but, i will still continue to feed mealies in the same way i allways have - fresh from the tub and alive.


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

for larger specimins they seem like a good option. they work quickly, have very little smell compared to maggots (and dermestid beetles aparently, although I have yet to try these) but seeing what they did to the mouse, dried out or not I would not trust them with smaller animals. you said that you removed the feet of the rat along with the skin, but I noticed that you left one attached. how well did the small toe bones survive? if anything of the rat was going to be damaged I would expect it to be them. 
if it were later in the year I would record my own tests with maggots for comparison, but it is too cold outside realy (they do work but very slowly, I have a fallow deer and a seal pup skulls on the go at the moment, and the deer has been there for a couple of months now), and knowing how bad they smell I am not doing that in the house! I can say though that I have a large collection of skulls and complete skeletons, including tiny species such as shrews and wrens, that have been cleaned with them, and none have any damage at all. the maggots also work at an impresive speed, but the smell is the main disadvantage. also, the good thing about mealworms is you can use them afterwards. all you get with maggots is swarms of blow flies.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Yeah, i thought someone would have mentioned it earlier. I forgot i was going to skin it properly when i started so just ran around the foot with the blade before i realised 

The thinner bones were all in good nick, even the tail cartiledge was un-munched on.

I am pretty thinking i will be doing the first run on a moellendorf rat snake, mainly because i have 2 specimens in the freezer. These are about the size of an adult corn so not too small and not too big.
I'ts just a case of working out when i have the time to do it. My biggest concern is the skin - i dont have long periods of free time to do it properly and i'm not sure if it will be ok to re-freeze the skin once it's off the body.

For this reason i may do the sailfin first. Not only is it a bigger animal but i wont be doing the skin for that one. Mainly because i don't know how i would mount it on the "plaque". So i wont need the time to save it.


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

I have re frozen bird and mammal skins plenty of times before with no ill effects, although they have to be wraped well to avoid freezer burn. if it is only for a short time you can fill the cavety with damp cotten wool and store it in the fridge instead. never tried with a reptile skin although I don't see why it should be any different. 
the sailfin skin could be spread flat in the same way as the snake skins, you would just have to slit the underside of the legs too. the problem would be the claws and the sail, as they are conected to both the skin and the skeleton. you would have to descide which to keep intact, as I don't think it would be posable to do both.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Funnily enough i hadn't thought about the sail.....

You're right though it will be one or the other, as the main focus of this is the skeleton anyway i will sacrifice the skin. 

That makes my decision much easier. The sailfin will be my first attempt.

I'll probably defrost tomorrow afternoon, skin and gut tomorrow night and dry it out over the night before adding the worms on wednesday afternoon.


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

be sure to keep us well informed, espesualy as I have a water dragon in the freezer waiting to be done, which is going to be pretty much the same. I was going to wait for better weather so I could use my usual method but if this works I may buy some meal worms instead. let me know how the actual mounting process goes as well. I always hate doing the rib cages and reptiles have a whole lot more ribs that anything I have done before! what are you planing to stick the bones together with?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Sure, there'll be lots of pictures 

My plan is to use a touch of epoxy or super glue to hold each piece in place. However, the entire thing will be given a thin coating of varnish so that will help hold it together aswell.


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## madphish (Oct 29, 2006)

quite interesting video here: [its a pig carcass and dermestids at work]
Queensland Museum - Snakes - Preparing a Snake Skeleton - Skeleton Preparation Video

have you thought about white vinegar? would it work? it would at least remove the smell element. ive also read that someone soaked a mouse skeleton in 1 part water 1 part hyd peroxide for a week or so to remove all flesh

all this scalpel lark brings back memories of my marine biology dissection sessions. dissecting dogfish venous systems *tedious*


i think it may be worth trying this?>>
biological washing powder. apparently Biotex is less/not alkaline like most powders. keep it aeround 50-60C to keep the enzymes [proteases, lipases etc] as active as you want/need with continuous monitoring. again, at least it would smell better?:lol2:


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## corvid2e1 (Jan 21, 2007)

yeah I generaly use super glue. the gel type tends to work better than the liquid though. the liquid will work but it can be quite delicate. I have a kestrel skeleton done with that and it must have been repared about 3 times. can't say I have ever tried varnash though, as I prefer a more natural look but I will see how yours comes out. it may be worth considering in the future.


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Good thread Dan, amazing how lethal mealies really are.:grin1:


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