# Hello!



## Rooster1200

Hi guys, I'm new here. My name is Andrew and I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. 

I currently don't own any reptiles, but I've been doing research for about a year now and am planning to get a snake pretty soon. I'm undecided between a Ball python, Cali king, or Hognose. Would love to hear any recs you may have regarding those species. I have read that Ball/Royals are kind of like "pet rocks" (no offense) and don't move around much? I'm prepared to deal with the picky eating if I go that route. I guess right now I'm leaning Cali King! They seem to be the most active and have the bigger personality? 

That's for reading!


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## Debbie1962

Hi and welcome to the forum.


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## wilkinss77

Hi, & welcome!
Of those 3 I'd recommend the Cali, simply because it is the easiest to keep. Royals can be a pain to feed at times with their random fasts, hogs can be a pain to get started feeding but are fine after that. BUT: they're venomous, & although far from deadly, a bite will ruin your day & can put you in A&E. Kings, rat snakes & gopher/pine snakes are the easiest.


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## Swindinian

Welcome,

Royal/ ball pythons can be active for 2 to 3 hours, but invariably at night time.

Have you looked at Pine/bull/gopher snakes?
Active, plenty of character, and under rated. I would recommend looking into those for consideration.

Regards,

Andy


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## wilkinss77

Swindinian said:


> Welcome,
> 
> Royal/ ball pythons can be active for 2 to 3 hours, but invariably at night time.
> 
> Have you looked at Pine/bull/gopher snakes?
> Active, plenty of character, and under rated. I would recommend looking into those for consideration.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andy


Good call! I've got a San Diego Gopher. Beautiful chequered pattern, great feeder and not aggressive unless provoked.


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## ian14

Rooster1200 said:


> Hi guys, I'm new here. My name is Andrew and I live in Salt Lake City, Utah.
> 
> I currently don't own any reptiles, but I've been doing research for about a year now and am planning to get a snake pretty soon. I'm undecided between a Ball python, Cali king, or Hognose. Would love to hear any recs you may have regarding those species. I have read that Ball/Royals are kind of like "pet rocks" (no offense) and don't move around much? I'm prepared to deal with the picky eating if I go that route. I guess right now I'm leaning Cali King! They seem to be the most active and have the bigger personality?
> 
> That's for reading!


Not the best choices for a first snake.
1. Royals - an established defrost feeder is usually pretty solid provided their environment is spot on. Key is a high enough ambient air temperature. However, my understanding is that in the US, live food is used more commonly for these as they are easier to get feeding on live. If you can get one that is established on defrost, you should be OK, but you won't see it much in the day.
2. Cali kings - these are probably the most defensive of all the North American snakes. They will see anything as food! They are really easy to keep, but expect bites.
3. Hognoses - these are a mildly venomous rear fanged species with a number of documented accounts of fairly severe envenomation. They can be finicky, so if you go for this species, make sure it has hadd numerous (at least 6 or more) consecutive unscented defrost mouse meals. Also, avoid males. Males are tiny and more prone to feeding issues.
There are entire more species that are more appropriate such as garters.


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## Rooster1200

Wow, thanks for all the info guys. I had no idea the Hognose had venom, I just thought they were cute little worms. Has anyone here got a bite report? Plus I didn't know Cali kings are so defensive. I guess my research wasn't so good! 

I have no interest in feeding live, so I'm starting to think a Royal that's eating FT might be the way to go. I love those axanthic black and white morphs. I really don't care that much what it looks like though, I'd much rather get one that is curious, social n friendly over an exotic pattern.

Thanks again!

Edit: I'm not into the garter so much cuz I'm not into the whole getting musked on idea, that's kind of a deal breaker....


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## Malum Argenteum

The problem with picky eating is that a novice keeper won't know if it is normal picky eating or if something is amiss with the snake or husbandry. It isn't just a matter of being willing to tolerate it, it is a matter of making decisions based on evidence that a novice keeper won't know how to see.

I have a royal that has been a pleasure in every way for over a decade (he does hunger strike for months occasionally, but I can read the situation and know how to deal with it), and I breed a pair of hognose and have not had issues with them or their offspring. I've been fortunate in both those, I think; with the royal one key is to set up a proper enclosure (not a fish tank or ExoTerra). I don't keep cali kings, but I do have a number of foody snakes and they are...how should I put it...miserable.


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## ian14

I've kept all 3 of tbe species you listed and bred.
The cali kings were frankly obnoxious. Fed great but bit me constantly. 
The royals were OK, but only in wooden vivs with overhead day and night ceramic heating.
Hogs were my favourite. 
I kept and bred both the Western and Mexican species and both were an absolute joy to own.
I have had an envenomated bite and believe me, its no laughing matter. What I would say, though, is that true envenomated bites are a result of the snake mistaking the human as food.
As long as you understand that they are venomous, take the appropriate precautions, and ONLY buy a female that is a confirmed established feeder on unscented defrost mice, they are great.
But, as I said before, there are many other species that are better suited to a beginner.
Corn snakes, bairds rat snakes, gophers, pines, all are, in my personal experience, better options.


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## wilkinss77

ian14 said:


> I've kept all 3 of tbe species you listed and bred.
> The cali kings were frankly obnoxious. Fed great but bit me constantly.
> The royals were OK, but only in wooden vivs with overhead day and night ceramic heating.
> Hogs were my favourite.
> I kept and bred both the Western and Mexican species and both were an absolute joy to own.
> I have had an envenomated bite and believe me, its no laughing matter. What I would say, though, is that true envenomated bites are a result of the snake mistaking the human as food.
> As long as you understand that they are venomous, take the appropriate precautions, and ONLY buy a female that is a confirmed established feeder on unscented defrost mice, they are great.
> But, as I said before, there are many other species that are better suited to a beginner.
> Corn snakes, bairds rat snakes, gophers, pines, all are, in my personal experience, better options.


Milk snakes are another option, as are non-getula complex kings.


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## ian14

wilkinss77 said:


> Milk snakes are another option, as are non-getula complex kings.


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## Malum Argenteum

ian14 said:


> Most milks will only take lizards to begin with


The most common (in the US, anyway) former subspecies -- pueblans, nelsons, and hondurans -- are easy starters on mice (I've bred the first two). Somewhat less common, but Costa Rican blacks are probably the most easy starting snake I've ever bred.

Maybe you're thinking of mountain kings?


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## Rooster1200

All right, looks like I have my work cut out. Cali King is off the list. Milk, gopher, pine, bull are on. 

*Mallum* -- I get what you are saying about health problem vs. just not hungry. 

At some point I've got to just pull the trigger on one of these species though ya know.


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## wilkinss77

Rooster1200 said:


> All right, looks like I have my work cut out. Cali King is off the list. Milk, gopher, pine, bull are on.
> 
> *Mallum* -- I get what you are saying about health problem vs. just not hungry.
> 
> At some point I've got to just pull the trigger on one of these species though ya know.


Actually, you might be ok with a Cali king in the US- it's UK bred ones that tend to be nasty for some reason. Those in the US are normally placid.


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## Rooster1200

Wow, I wonder why they are more aggro in the UK?...


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## wilkinss77

Rooster1200 said:


> Wow, I wonder why they are more aggro in the UK?...


 No one really understands why. But all of the UK bred getula complex kings tend to be be bitey for some reason in comparison with their US counterparts, including even wild specimens in the US- in the US for example, not even wild Cali's, Deserts, Mexican Blacks or Eastern Blacks are particularly bitey, nor are US CB ones- but all of those tend to bite as UK bred specimens. All of them however can be tamed.


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## Malum Argenteum

So UK getula are actually biting aggressively/defensively? They're very well known for being excessively food motivated and biting for that reason, but "nasty" ones are few and very far between (here).


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## ian14

Malum Argenteum said:


> So UK getula are actually biting aggressively/defensively? They're very well known for being excessively food motivated and biting for that reason, but "nasty" ones are few and very far between (here).


I believe that the assertion that UK kings are more aggressive is based on comments made by one individual with no evidence to back it up.
It makes no sense whatsoever, as they were imported in large numbers as snake keeping accelerated. So there can be no issue around inbreeding from a bad gene as there have been so many brought in.
My personal experience is as you describe, food driven. Yes, they may suddenly nip while being handled, but to me, the key to that is a lack of any threat display or signs of aggression etc. Which is no different to how kings bred in the US, or, I am sure, anywhere else in the world, behave.


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## wilkinss77

ian14 said:


> *I believe that the assertion that UK kings are more aggressive is based on comments made by one individual with no evidence to back it up.*
> It makes no sense whatsoever, as they were imported in large numbers as snake keeping accelerated. So there can be no issue around inbreeding from a bad gene as there have been so many brought in.
> My personal experience is as you describe, food driven. Yes, they may suddenly nip while being handled, but to me, the key to that is a lack of any threat display or signs of aggression etc. Which is no different to how kings bred in the US, or, I am sure, anywhere else in the world, behave.


It isn't. Francis (thrasops) confirmed it, as did a member of staff at Cold Blooded who I mentioned it to. Both have encountered US Cali & Mexican Black kings both in the wild & captive bred, & both confirmed a significant difference in temperament between them & UK bred ones, the latter being miles more feisty & defensive, US examples rarely biting.


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## ian14

wilkinss77 said:


> It isn't. Francis (thrasops) confirmed it, as did a member of staff at Cold Blooded who I mentioned it to. Both have encountered US Cali & Mexican Black kings both in the wild & captive bred, & both confirmed a significant difference in temperament between them & UK bred ones, the latter being miles more feisty & defensive, US examples rarely biting.


That's not proof though is it. That's two people. There is no scientific evidence of this at all and it makes no sense, biologically or genetically.
To prove that this odd assertion is true requires a UK-wide assessment of captive Kings. And the same across the US. You would have to take a large sample from both countries to prove that one is more aggressive that the other.


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## wilkinss77

ian14 said:


> That's not proof though is it. That's two people. There is no scientific evidence of this at all and it makes no sense, biologically or genetically.
> To prove that this odd assertion is true requires a UK-wide assessment of captive Kings. And the same across the US. You would have to take a large sample from both countries to prove that one is more aggressive that the other.


Francis said he thinks it's gene pool thing with the UK Cali's & MBKs.
Moreover, they have different reputations in US & UK snake keeping literature, but printed & onlne. In the US they're recommended as placid snakes, in the UK caution is recommended because of their tendency to bite.


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## Reptile girl123

Rooster1200 said:


> Wow, thanks for all the info guys. I had no idea the Hognose had venom, I just thought they were cute little worms. Has anyone here got a bite report? Plus I didn't know Cali kings are so defensive. I guess my research wasn't so good!
> 
> I have no interest in feeding live, so I'm starting to think a Royal that's eating FT might be the way to go. I love those axanthic black and white morphs. I really don't care that much what it looks like though, I'd much rather get one that is curious, social n friendly over an exotic pattern.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> Edit: I'm not into the garter so much cuz I'm not into the whole getting musked on idea, that's kind of a deal breaker....


I have four ball pythons but you have to be sure they will take FT we got all the snakes at different times and we were told they would all eat FT turns out only two of the will eat FT well technically only one because our Gary would probably eat a half rotten rat lol he would eat anything always wanting to eat and always seems upset when we refuse to give him more. the other two just refuse to eat anything but live. Thankfully im located in the US not the UK because it is actually illegal to feed live in the UK (why is that btw??) If you do not like the thought of feeding live.....trust me its a guilty feeling knowing your sending a rat/mouse to its death so i dont blame you.....make sure they will take FT dont just take the Breeder/owners word for it a lot of the time they are just trying to get rid of the animal sadly


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## Reptile girl123

you might also be interested in a corn snake though i have never owned any i have heard they are quite docile and active though they will not get as big as say a ball python


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## Malc

Reptile girl123 said:


> Thankfully im located in the US not the UK because it is actually illegal to feed live in the UK (why is that btw??)


The subject of live feeding has been discussed a lot over the years on this forum so I'm sure the search function will throw up all the previous debates. But basically it's down to the preservation of life and the prevention of cruelty that's covered in several animal welfare acts. Whilst you could argue that feeding a live rodent to a snake is cruel as you are sentencing the rodent to death, you can counter argue that, provided you've tried every alternative, if feeding the rodent means preserving the life of the snake as letting it starve is also cruel, then it's justifiable.

But purchasing and feeding live just for the entertainment value (as is the case on a lot of US based videos on Youtube) or because you can't be bothered to persevere with feeding defrosted frozen is against the law. Like I said, if you want more background or details then try searching the forum.


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## Reptile girl123

Malc said:


> The subject of live feeding has been discussed a lot over the years on this forum so I'm sure the search function will throw up all the previous debates. But basically it's down to the preservation of life and the prevention of cruelty that's covered in several animal welfare acts. Whilst you could argue that feeding a live rodent to a snake is cruel as you are sentencing the rodent to death, you can counter argue that, provided you've tried every alternative, if feeding the rodent means preserving the life of the snake as letting it starve is also cruel, then it's justifiable.
> 
> But purchasing and feeding live just for the entertainment value (as is the case on a lot of US based videos on Youtube) or because you can't be bothered to persevere with feeding defrosted frozen is against the law. Like I said, if you want more background or details then try searching the forum.


i was wondering thank you


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## mooselee

How about something a bit left field and getting Central American boa?


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## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> I believe that the assertion that UK kings are more aggressive is based on comments made by one individual with no evidence to back it up.
> It makes no sense whatsoever, as they were imported in large numbers as snake keeping accelerated. So there can be no issue around inbreeding from a bad gene as there have been so many brought in.
> My personal experience is as you describe, food driven. Yes, they may suddenly nip while being handled, but to me, the key to that is a lack of any threat display or signs of aggression etc. Which is no different to how kings bred in the US, or, I am sure, anywhere else in the world, behave.


There seems to be a game of Chinese whispers going on. To clarify - if you go back and read the posts I have made about this, I have never said all UK _getula _are more aggressive. I have specified UK bred Cali kings (_californiae _under current taxonomy) are (not MBKs, which are lovely), and the issue seems particularly apparent in desert phase animals.

This is not just the observation of 'two people' but a number of UK and US keepers and breeders that have had the opportunity to encounter the species wild on a regular basis and experience US and UK bred animals. This includes people like Melissa Baer (Melissa888 on here), Marie Kyriacou (Albinoxeno on here), Demetri Penuelas, Scott and Clayton Lupien, Chaz of Snakes n Adders, Cold Blooded Exotics and others, all of whom have voiced similar opinions to me.

You literally stated yourself above - 'The cali kings were frankly obnoxious. Fed great but bit me constantly' and '2. Cali kings - these are probably the most defensive of all the North American snakes. They will see anything as food! They are really easy to keep, but expect bites.' That is not how kingsnakes are supposed to act! Nor is it how the animals caught wild act, with the exception of some rarer subspecies like the Black king snake (_L. *****_ - NOT the Mexican Black king snake - which was more rarely kept here precisely _because _it was more defensive than the others).

EDIT I can see why confusion has arisen, the site seems to be blocking out the binomial.










This is a different snake to the Mexican Black king snake, formerly_ L. getula nigrita_ which I believe is now included in _L. californiae, _but which I have _not _noticed these behavioural issues in.

In fact all you would need to do is watch a few field herping videos by the likes of Lou Boyer or NFK and see how calm and tractable the _californiae _they catch are compared to the little monsters many we have here are. In fact plenty of early literature lists kingsnakes as the most trustworthy and ideal North American snakes to keep, even more so than the Corn snake. There is a discrepancy between what those early American breeders were writing and what we are both stating today.

The issue is not 'the odd feeding bite' or 'the odd nip' - most kingsnakes are capable of that as they are food driven, this does not make them 'nasty' - the issue is rather a complete lack of tractability compared to wild specimens or US bred specimens - writhing wildly when held, flicking faeces, threat displaying and generally taking ages to calm down, if they do at all.

And actually it makes complete sense for a behavioural shift considering how isolated the UK population is. When was the last time California kingsnakes were imported in any numbers? Who imported them and where did they go? They were imported in large numbers in the eighties and perhaps nineties, who has imported them in the last decades after around 2004? Where are they coming from? The truth is the UK population has been almost completely isolated for decades and this trait seems to have emerged in a number of lineages according to the experience of quite a few people.

I would still say Cali Kings are hardy, easy to keep species suitable for a beginner - but a large percentage of UK animals do show odd behaviours for the species, this is not a scientific observation but an anecdotal one based on breeding most of the _getula _subspecies (in their old taxonomy) for around fifteen years before I got bored of them and noticing the Cali Kings had a completely different behavioural profile from the others. An observation shared by a few people.


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## Rooster1200

Reptile girl123 said:


> I have four ball pythons but you have to be sure they will take FT we got all the snakes at different times and we were told they would all eat FT turns out only two of the will eat FT well technically only one because our Gary would probably eat a half rotten rat lol he would eat anything always wanting to eat and always seems upset when we refuse to give him more. the other two just refuse to eat anything but live. Thankfully im located in the US not the UK because it is actually illegal to feed live in the UK (why is that btw??) If you do not like the thought of feeding live.....trust me its a guilty feeling knowing your sending a rat/mouse to its death so i dont blame you.....make sure they will take FT dont just take the Breeder/owners word for it a lot of the time they are just trying to get rid of the animal sadly


Yeah, I'm not really into the feeding live idea. For the health of both animals, and I don't need to see an animal suffer. I'm planning on ordering by mail off MorphMarket, so I guess the only way to confirm the snake is eating FT is to check the reviews and double check with the breeder.... MorphMarket has such an insane amount of animals.


mooselee said:


> How about something a bit left field and getting Central American boa?


I've thought about it.... Those Tarahumaran snakes seem to be really awesome. Maybe a little too big for a first snake?


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## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> There seems to be a game of Chinese whispers going on. To clarify - if you go back and read the posts I have made about this, I have never said all UK _getula _are more aggressive. I have specified UK bred Cali kings (_californiae _under current taxonomy) are (not MBKs, which are lovely), and the issue seems particularly apparent in desert phase animals.
> 
> This is not just the observation of 'two people' but a number of UK and US keepers and breeders that have had the opportunity to encounter the species wild on a regular basis and experience US and UK bred animals. This includes people like Melissa Baer (Melissa888 on here), Marie Kyriacou (Albinoxeno on here), Demetri Penuelas, Scott and Clayton Lupien, Chaz of Snakes n Adders, Cold Blooded Exotics and others, all of whom have voiced similar opinions to me.
> 
> You literally stated yourself above - 'The cali kings were frankly obnoxious. Fed great but bit me constantly' and '2. Cali kings - these are probably the most defensive of all the North American snakes. They will see anything as food! They are really easy to keep, but expect bites.' That is not how kingsnakes are supposed to act! Nor is it how the animals caught wild act, with the exception of some rarer subspecies like the Black king snake (_L. ***_ - NOT the Mexican Black king snake - which was more rarely kept here precisely _because _it was more defensive than the others).
> 
> EDIT I can see why confusion has arisen, the site seems to be blocking out the binomial.
> 
> View attachment 369061
> 
> 
> This is a different snake to the Mexican Black king snake, formerly_ L. getula nigrita_ which I believe is now included in _L. californiae, _but which I have _not _noticed these behavioural issues in.
> 
> In fact all you would need to do is watch a few field herping videos by the likes of Lou Boyer or NFK and see how calm and tractable the _californiae _they catch are compared to the little monsters many we have here are. In fact plenty of early literature lists kingsnakes as the most trustworthy and ideal North American snakes to keep, even more so than the Corn snake. There is a discrepancy between what those early American breeders were writing and what we are both stating today.
> 
> The issue is not 'the odd feeding bite' or 'the odd nip' - most kingsnakes are capable of that as they are food driven, this does not make them 'nasty' - the issue is rather a complete lack of tractability compared to wild specimens or US bred specimens - writhing wildly when held, flicking faeces, threat displaying and generally taking ages to calm down, if they do at all.
> 
> And actually it makes complete sense for a behavioural shift considering how isolated the UK population is. When was the last time California kingsnakes were imported in any numbers? Who imported them and where did they go? They were imported in large numbers in the eighties and perhaps nineties, who has imported them in the last decades after around 2004? Where are they coming from? The truth is the UK population has been almost completely isolated for decades and this trait seems to have emerged in a number of lineages according to the experience of quite a few people.
> 
> I would still say Cali Kings are hardy, easy to keep species suitable for a beginner - but a large percentage of UK animals do show odd behaviours for the species, this is not a scientific observation but an anecdotal one based on breeding most of the _getula _subspecies (in their old taxonomy) for around fifteen years before I got bored of them and noticing the Cali Kings had a completely different behavioural profile from the others. An observation shared by a few people.


Well said, Francis.


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## ian14

So your belief that somehow every UK cali king is inherently different to all others bred world wide is this:

*In fact all you would need to do is watch a few field herping videos by the likes of Lou Boyer or NFK and see how calm and tractable the californiae they catch are compared to the little monsters many we have here are. In fact plenty of early literature lists kingsnakes as the most trustworthy and ideal North American snakes to keep, even more so than the Corn snake. There is a discrepancy between what those early American breeders were writing and what we are both stating today.*

Please, please tell me how that is scientific evidence. Because I'm not seeing any.
At all.


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## ian14

And as an aside, I am still amazed that such an avid breeder such as Francis has no adverts offering surplus hatchlings.
Its very easy to post list after list of scientific papers to try to give yourself credibility.
But the simple fact is, you make no sense.
You claim to keep and breed a vast collection of herps. Great!
But these claims have been made before and shown to be complete fantasy.
If you were breeding all these animals, where are the offspring???
Never advertised, nobody ever saying that they got specimens from you.
It doesn't make sense and doesn't add up.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

ian14 said:


> And as an aside, I am still amazed that such an avid breeder such as Francis has no adverts offering surplus hatchlings.
> Its very easy to post list after list of scientific papers to try to give yourself credibility.
> But the simple fact is, you make no sense.
> You claim to keep and breed a vast collection of herps. Great!
> But these claims have been made before and shown to be complete fantasy.
> If you were breeding all these animals, where are the offspring???
> Never advertised, nobody ever saying that they got specimens from you.
> It doesn't make sense and doesn't add up.


Gosh that's some post there...............


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## Thrasops

Oh man the constant need for people to try and be the bigger fish in this hobby never fails to amuse me.
It requires taking a step back to get perspective.

Listen Ian, you can believe California kingsnakes in the wild are 'the most defensive North American snakes' if you want and fling all the vitriol you have my way. Ultimately, it only makes one of us look unhinged.



ian14 said:


> So your belief that somehow every UK cali king is inherently different to all others bred world wide is this:
> 
> *In fact all you would need to do is watch a few field herping videos by the likes of Lou Boyer or NFK and see how calm and tractable the californiae they catch are compared to the little monsters many we have here are. In fact plenty of early literature lists kingsnakes as the most trustworthy and ideal North American snakes to keep, even more so than the Corn snake. There is a discrepancy between what those early American breeders were writing and what we are both stating today.*
> 
> Please, please tell me how that is scientific evidence. Because I'm not seeing any.
> At all.


I think I stated quite clearly that this is anecdotal, not scientific evidence. And you know what? Almost everything posted on this forum, or on social media in general, is anecdotal evidence (except when scientific citations are made, I hear that is easy though and only for trying to improve credibility... I am sure we will all treat any opinion you make henceforth as similarly invalid unless relevant scientific evidence is provided alongside it...)

However, in this case it is anecdotal evidence bolstered by sharing experiences with a number of other keepers and herpers, as well as decades of literature. I named a few others that share this sentiment above, and in fact just today somebody posted on Facebook with exactly the same issues with a seemingly crazy California king:

'_My California kingsnake used to try to eat himself. I read that this is caused by high temperatures. To manage this, I lowered the temps, and I didn't have an issue with it for a long time... Well, I put heat on him recently and he has started trying to eat himself again. I don't know if it's because of the temperature, or if it's because I'm not feeding him enough. There's been a big focus on slimming snakes down, so I've been keeping him slimmer and not feeding as often.

Are there any other reasons kingsnakes would try to eat themselves?

Obviously they eat other snakes, so maybe he's just confused, gets hungry, and bites, and then instinct kicks in. I'm not sure how to make him stop trying, so I stuffed him full of baby rats last night so that he would at least have a full stomach and maybe stop for a while.

He was crazy though--like, nothing I did could deter him from biting anything and everything around him that moved... which included himself._'


Yet, look back through some of the classic old snake books:

Markel and Bartlett, Kingsnakes and Milksnakes - 'It was probably the the immense natural variability of the race, pleasing combination of colours and placid disposition that initially caught the fancy of hobbyists'

Ludwig Trutnau, Snakes in the Terrarium vol. 1 - 'It does not take long to train these kingsnakes to take the prey, either dead or alive, from your hand.'

Hell, Robert Anderson in his 1987 book 'A Step by Step Guide About Snakes' specifically notes that Cali Kings are the _best_ North American pet snake for the beginner because they are so docile and trustworthy, ranking above even Corn snakes which 'can never be fully trusted not to bite.' Of note is the fact this book was written before captive breeding of snakes became as widespread as it is today and the author was specifically detailing how to catch and keep wild North American snakes.

These are like the first three books I pulled at random off my shelf, you must have quite a collection yourself, being such a knowledgable bloke. I would suggest opening them up and reading what they say about the docility of Cali kings. Mattison, Bartlett, Geuss, Trutnau, Krottlinger, Barker etc. etc. etc. etc. they all say the same thing...

Quite a difference to your very own statements earlier on this thread:



ian14 said:


> Not the best choices for a first snake.
> 2. Cali kings - these are probably the most defensive of all the North American snakes. They will see anything as food! They are really easy to keep, but expect bites.





ian14 said:


> The cali kings were frankly obnoxious. Fed great but bit me constantly.


Oddly enough the fact you yourself have stated exactly the same observations as I have - and that these observations are at odds with what most American keepers, herpers, keepers, on social media and in historical literature - state, seems to be lost on you, but OK.

Frankly I would suggest maybe liaising with some American keepers and herpers and asking _them_ if they agree that Cali kings are REALLY 'the most defensive of all the North American snakes' as you yourself stated... (really, Cali Kings the most defensive North American snakes??? More defensive than _Pituophis_? Than _Nerodia_? Than racers and Coachwhips? Than pitvipers?) If that is truly your experience than you are giving more weight to my opinion than I ever could have. Also:

Please, please tell me how that is scientific evidence. Because I'm not seeing any.
At all.

See how that works?

Maybe, just maybe, admit that actually our experiences on this side of the Atlantic are quite different to theirs and what you have written before I posted actually aligns with my observations and those of others, and is totally at odds with what American keepers have written over the years...




ian14 said:


> And as an aside, I am still amazed that such an avid breeder such as Francis has no adverts offering surplus hatchlings.
> Its very easy to post list after list of scientific papers to try to give yourself credibility.
> But the simple fact is, you make no sense.
> You claim to keep and breed a vast collection of herps. Great!
> But these claims have been made before and shown to be complete fantasy.
> If you were breeding all these animals, where are the offspring???
> Never advertised, nobody ever saying that they got specimens from you.
> It doesn't make sense and doesn't add up.


Not sure what this has to do with defensiveness of Cali kingsnakes but obviously you felt it important to blurt all that out. Do you feel better now? I genuinely hope you do.

I must confess once I might have written a long and involved retort that eloquently skewered you; but the new softer, calmer, more laid back me is actually inclined to laugh this off - as it should be laughed off; it's just low hanging fruit.




So instead I will indeed hold up my hands! Yes Ian, you are absolutely right! I never breed anything!

My entire collection is a fantasy. Hell, the last 14 years on this forum and all the posts and photos I have posted have been a sham, taken from other far better keepers than myself or stolen from the interwebs.

The 17-page thread elsewhere on this forum that I have been updating since 2019, where I specifically came back this year to post my breeding successes as well as a few hundred images of other snakes I have bred after you last amusingly said something like this to me, is actually comprised of doodles made on a notepad.

Heck, every other thread over the past decade was all made up; the photos and information therein pulled out of my backside or stolen from worthier keepers that made sure never to post a scientific citation or terrify their animals with a light bulb. And all to bolster my credibility (it's why I always list scientific papers, you know!)   

People ONLY advertise their surplus babies on RFUK. No other social media sites exist, word of mouth does not exist, shops do not exist - and if they DID exist they DEFINITELY would not post images of me going to visit them when I bring my babies to them. If the advertisement is not made on RFUK, under your express supervision, then no transaction can happen and it just does not exist.

The Instagram link in my signature leads to somebody else's collection, certainly not mine. All animals depicted - including the offspring - belong to somebody else.

Listing scientific papers is only done for credibility, except where it is NOT done, in which case you will accuse people of not being scientific enough. But why else would goalposts exist if not to be moved?

When I appear on Podcasts or Youtube interviews and ramble on for two hours talking about a subject in depth, that is not me talking, it is a voice over by some posh bloke they paid reading from a script.

My claims of owning a 'vast' collection are complete fantasy... damnit, I am rumbled! Whatever will I do.
Moreover, my 'claims' have 'been shown to be complete fantasy.'


I must admit I have heard a great many surprising and interesting things about myself from people that have never met me over the years, but this one is probably the most amusing.

I will leave it there... tempting as it is to remind you of some of the absolute screaming howlers you have posted over the years, you don't really occupy as much time in my thoughts as I seem to in yours.

So instead I will say - Good Morning Ian14, I hope the day finds you in a better mood than last night, that you stride forth for a fulfilling day, and that you feel all the better for it.


----------



## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> Oh man the constant need for people to try and be the bigger fish in this hobby never fails to amuse me.
> It requires taking a step back to get perspective.
> 
> Listen Ian, you can believe California kingsnakes in the wild are 'the most defensive North American snakes' if you want and fling all the vitriol you have my way. Ultimately, it only makes one of us look unhinged.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I stated quite clearly that this is anecdotal, not scientific evidence. And you know what? Almost everything posted on this forum, or on social media in general, is anecdotal evidence (except when scientific citations are made, I hear that is easy though and only for trying to improve credibility... I am sure we will all treat any opinion you make henceforth as similarly invalid unless relevant scientific evidence is provided alongside it...)
> 
> However, in this case it is anecdotal evidence bolstered by sharing experiences with a number of other keepers and herpers, as well as decades of literature. I named a few others that share this sentiment above, and in fact just today somebody posted on Facebook with exactly the same issues with a seemingly crazy California king:
> 
> '_My California kingsnake used to try to eat himself. I read that this is caused by high temperatures. To manage this, I lowered the temps, and I didn't have an issue with it for a long time... Well, I put heat on him recently and he has started trying to eat himself again. I don't know if it's because of the temperature, or if it's because I'm not feeding him enough. There's been a big focus on slimming snakes down, so I've been keeping him slimmer and not feeding as often.
> 
> Are there any other reasons kingsnakes would try to eat themselves?
> 
> Obviously they eat other snakes, so maybe he's just confused, gets hungry, and bites, and then instinct kicks in. I'm not sure how to make him stop trying, so I stuffed him full of baby rats last night so that he would at least have a full stomach and maybe stop for a while.
> 
> He was crazy though--like, nothing I did could deter him from biting anything and everything around him that moved... which included himself._'
> 
> 
> Yet, look back through some of the classic old snake books:
> 
> Markel and Bartlett, Kingsnakes and Milksnakes - 'It was probably the the immense natural variability of the race, pleasing combination of colours and placid disposition that initially caught the fancy of hobbyists'
> 
> Ludwig Trutnau, Snakes in the Terrarium vol. 1 - 'It does not take long to train these kingsnakes to take the prey, either dead or alive, from your hand.'
> 
> Hell, Robert Anderson in his 1987 book 'A Step by Step Guide About Snakes' specifically notes that Cali Kings are the _best_ North American pet snake for the beginner because they are so docile and trustworthy, ranking above even Corn snakes which 'can never be fully trusted not to bite.' Of note is the fact this book was written before captive breeding of snakes became as widespread as it is today and the author was specifically detailing how to catch and keep wild North American snakes.
> 
> These are like the first three books on my shelf, you must have quite a collection yourself, being such a knowledgable bloke. I would suggest opening them up and reading what they say about the docility of Cali kings. Mattison, Bartlett, Geuss, Trutnau, Krottlinger, Barker etc. etc. etc. etc. they all say the same thing...
> 
> Quite a difference to your very own statements earlier on this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oddly enough the fact you yourself have stated exactly the same observations as I have - and that these observations are at odds with what most American keepers, herpers, keepers, on social media and in historical literature - state, seems to be lost on you, but OK.
> 
> Frankly I would suggest maybe liaising with some American keepers and herpers and asking _them_ if they agree that Cali kings are REALLY 'the most defensive of all the North American snakes' as you yourself stated... (really, Cali Kings the most defensive North American snakes??? More defensive than _Pituophis_? Than _Nerodia_? Than racers and Coachwhips? Than pitvipers?) If that is truly your experience than you are giving more weight to my opinion than I ever could have. Also:
> 
> Please, please tell me how that is scientific evidence. Because I'm not seeing any.
> At all.
> 
> See how that works?
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, admit that actually our experiences on this side of the Atlantic are quite different to theirs and what you have written before I posted actually aligns with my observations and those of others, and is totally at odds with what American keepers have written over the years...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what this has to do with defensiveness of Cali kingsnakes but obviously you felt it important to blurt all that out. Do you feel better now? I genuinely hope you do.
> 
> I must confess once I might have written a long and involved retort that eloquently skewered you; but the new softer, calmer, more laid back me is actually inclined to laugh this off - as it should be laughed off; it's just low hanging fruit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So instead I will indeed hold up my hands! Yes Ian, you are absolutely right! I never breed anything!
> 
> My entire collection is a fantasy. Hell, the last 14 years on this forum and all the posts and photos I have posted have been a sham, taken from other far better keepers than myself or stolen from the interwebs.
> 
> The 17-page thread elsewhere on this forum that I have been updating since 2019, where I specifically came back this year to post my breeding successes as well as a few hundred images of other snakes I have bred after you last amusingly said something like this to me, is actually comprised of doodles made on a notepad.
> 
> Heck, every other thread over the past decade was all made up; the photos and information therein pulled out of my backside or stolen from worthier keepers that made sure never to post a scientific citation or terrify their animals with a light bulb. And all to bolster my credibility (it's why I always list scientific papers, you know!)
> 
> People ONLY advertise their surplus babies on RFUK. No other social media sites exist, word of mouth does not exist, shops do not exist - and if they DID exist they DEFINITELY would not post images of me going to visit them when I bring my babies to them. If the advertisement is not made on RFUK, under your express supervision, then no transaction can happen and it just does not exist.
> 
> The Instagram link in my signature leads to somebody else's collection, certainly not mine. All animals depicted - including the offspring - belong to somebody else.
> 
> Listing scientific papers is only done for credibility, except where it is NOT done, in which case you will accuse people of not being scientific enough. But why else would goalposts exist if not to be moved?
> 
> When I appear on Podcasts or Youtube interviews and ramble on for two hours talking about a subject in depth, that is not me talking, it is a voice over by some posh bloke they paid reading from a script.
> 
> My claims of owning a 'vast' collection are complete fantasy... damnit, I am rumbled! Whatever will I do.
> Moreover, my 'claims' have 'been shown to be complete fantasy.'
> 
> 
> I must admit I have heard a great many surprising and interesting things about myself from people that have never met me over the years, but this one is probably the most amusing.
> 
> I will leave it there... tempting as it is to remind you of some of the absolute screaming howlers you have posted over the years, you don't really occupy as much time in my thoughts as I seem to in yours.
> 
> So instead I will say - Good Morning Ian14, I hope the day finds you in a better mood than last night, that you stride forth for a fulfilling day, and that you feel all the better for it.


Again, well said!


----------



## frogeyed

Thrasops said:


> Oh man the constant need for people to try and be the bigger fish in this hobby never fails to amuse me.
> It requires taking a step back to get perspective.
> 
> Listen Ian, you can believe California kingsnakes in the wild are 'the most defensive North American snakes' if you want and fling all the vitriol you have my way. Ultimately, it only makes one of us look unhinged.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I stated quite clearly that this is anecdotal, not scientific evidence. And you know what? Almost everything posted on this forum, or on social media in general, is anecdotal evidence (except when scientific citations are made, I hear that is easy though and only for trying to improve credibility... I am sure we will all treat any opinion you make henceforth as similarly invalid unless relevant scientific evidence is provided alongside it...)
> 
> However, in this case it is anecdotal evidence bolstered by sharing experiences with a number of other keepers and herpers, as well as decades of literature. I named a few others that share this sentiment above, and in fact just today somebody posted on Facebook with exactly the same issues with a seemingly crazy California king:
> 
> '_My California kingsnake used to try to eat himself. I read that this is caused by high temperatures. To manage this, I lowered the temps, and I didn't have an issue with it for a long time... Well, I put heat on him recently and he has started trying to eat himself again. I don't know if it's because of the temperature, or if it's because I'm not feeding him enough. There's been a big focus on slimming snakes down, so I've been keeping him slimmer and not feeding as often.
> 
> Are there any other reasons kingsnakes would try to eat themselves?
> 
> Obviously they eat other snakes, so maybe he's just confused, gets hungry, and bites, and then instinct kicks in. I'm not sure how to make him stop trying, so I stuffed him full of baby rats last night so that he would at least have a full stomach and maybe stop for a while.
> 
> He was crazy though--like, nothing I did could deter him from biting anything and everything around him that moved... which included himself._'
> 
> 
> Yet, look back through some of the classic old snake books:
> 
> Markel and Bartlett, Kingsnakes and Milksnakes - 'It was probably the the immense natural variability of the race, pleasing combination of colours and placid disposition that initially caught the fancy of hobbyists'
> 
> Ludwig Trutnau, Snakes in the Terrarium vol. 1 - 'It does not take long to train these kingsnakes to take the prey, either dead or alive, from your hand.'
> 
> Hell, Robert Anderson in his 1987 book 'A Step by Step Guide About Snakes' specifically notes that Cali Kings are the _best_ North American pet snake for the beginner because they are so docile and trustworthy, ranking above even Corn snakes which 'can never be fully trusted not to bite.' Of note is the fact this book was written before captive breeding of snakes became as widespread as it is today and the author was specifically detailing how to catch and keep wild North American snakes.
> 
> These are like the first three books on my shelf, you must have quite a collection yourself, being such a knowledgable bloke. I would suggest opening them up and reading what they say about the docility of Cali kings. Mattison, Bartlett, Geuss, Trutnau, Krottlinger, Barker etc. etc. etc. etc. they all say the same thing...
> 
> Quite a difference to your very own statements earlier on this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oddly enough the fact you yourself have stated exactly the same observations as I have - and that these observations are at odds with what most American keepers, herpers, keepers, on social media and in historical literature - state, seems to be lost on you, but OK.
> 
> Frankly I would suggest maybe liaising with some American keepers and herpers and asking _them_ if they agree that Cali kings are REALLY 'the most defensive of all the North American snakes' as you yourself stated... (really, Cali Kings the most defensive North American snakes??? More defensive than _Pituophis_? Than _Nerodia_? Than racers and Coachwhips? Than pitvipers?) If that is truly your experience than you are giving more weight to my opinion than I ever could have. Also:
> 
> Please, please tell me how that is scientific evidence. Because I'm not seeing any.
> At all.
> 
> See how that works?
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, admit that actually our experiences on this side of the Atlantic are quite different to theirs and what you have written before I posted actually aligns with my observations and those of others, and is totally at odds with what American keepers have written over the years...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what this has to do with defensiveness of Cali kingsnakes but obviously you felt it important to blurt all that out. Do you feel better now? I genuinely hope you do.
> 
> I must confess once I might have written a long and involved retort that eloquently skewered you; but the new softer, calmer, more laid back me is actually inclined to laugh this off - as it should be laughed off; it's just low hanging fruit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So instead I will indeed hold up my hands! Yes Ian, you are absolutely right! I never breed anything!
> 
> My entire collection is a fantasy. Hell, the last 14 years on this forum and all the posts and photos I have posted have been a sham, taken from other far better keepers than myself or stolen from the interwebs.
> 
> The 17-page thread elsewhere on this forum that I have been updating since 2019, where I specifically came back this year to post my breeding successes as well as a few hundred images of other snakes I have bred after you last amusingly said something like this to me, is actually comprised of doodles made on a notepad.
> 
> Heck, every other thread over the past decade was all made up; the photos and information therein pulled out of my backside or stolen from worthier keepers that made sure never to post a scientific citation or terrify their animals with a light bulb. And all to bolster my credibility (it's why I always list scientific papers, you know!)
> 
> People ONLY advertise their surplus babies on RFUK. No other social media sites exist, word of mouth does not exist, shops do not exist - and if they DID exist they DEFINITELY would not post images of me going to visit them when I bring my babies to them. If the advertisement is not made on RFUK, under your express supervision, then no transaction can happen and it just does not exist.
> 
> The Instagram link in my signature leads to somebody else's collection, certainly not mine. All animals depicted - including the offspring - belong to somebody else.
> 
> Listing scientific papers is only done for credibility, except where it is NOT done, in which case you will accuse people of not being scientific enough. But why else would goalposts exist if not to be moved?
> 
> When I appear on Podcasts or Youtube interviews and ramble on for two hours talking about a subject in depth, that is not me talking, it is a voice over by some posh bloke they paid reading from a script.
> 
> My claims of owning a 'vast' collection are complete fantasy... damnit, I am rumbled! Whatever will I do.
> Moreover, my 'claims' have 'been shown to be complete fantasy.'
> 
> 
> I must admit I have heard a great many surprising and interesting things about myself from people that have never met me over the years, but this one is probably the most amusing.
> 
> I will leave it there... tempting as it is to remind you of some of the absolute screaming howlers you have posted over the years, you don't really occupy as much time in my thoughts as I seem to in yours.
> 
> So instead I will say - Good Morning Ian14, I hope the day finds you in a better mood than last night, that you stride forth for a fulfilling day, and that you feel all the better for it.


Very, very well said, 

And long, long overdue.


----------



## Malc

Wow, this introduction post went off the rails quickly !


----------



## Thrasops

frogeyed said:


> Very, very well said,
> 
> And long, long overdue.


Uh huh...
I imagine there are many long time members and hobbyists that close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears and tell themselves the latter part is all reality.
Perhaps it makes them feel better. There is a scientific term for it - Tall Poppy Syndrome. I'd post a scientific paper about it, but something something about credibility...
In the meantime, I will still be around being irritating and posting about my imaginary snakes in my imaginary collection... lol





Malc said:


> Wow, this introduction post went off the rails quickly !


Apologies. Well you know... this _is_ RFUK. Cannot have somebody post an opinion or have a discussion without somebody else throwing their toys out of the pram. No doubt it will once again be ascribed to my irritating personality 
And I've not even been posting much on here lately what with work and the house move! Maybe I just bring it out of people... like lithium in water.


----------



## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> Nor is it how the animals caught wild act, with the exception of some rarer subspecies like the Black king snake (_L. ***_ - NOT the Mexican Black king snake - which was more rarely kept here precisely _because _it was more defensive than the others).
> 
> EDIT I can see why confusion has arisen, the site seems to be blocking out the binomial.


n!gra please! 😂😂



I can't comment on this cali king topic really as I have never encountered a US bred or wild Cali King but it is feasible that the potential lean towards aggressive animals is to do with the feeding of the offspring? Aggressive baby snakes are often better feeders, better feeders have a better rate of survival and potentially increased speed at which they reach sexual maturity. Also hobby breeders, if presented with a clutch of similar looking snakes will often choose the first to feed as their holdbacks for future breeding, I know I do. This could inadvertently favour certain traits in the captive population. A friend in Europe who has been breeding Black Head Pythons for many years has always chosen the best feeders as his holdbacks and says that now clutches from 3 gens of choosing these holdbacks he gets 80% to eat defrost on their first feed, compared to 20% when he started (blackheads are notoriously difficult to get feeding).


----------



## LiasisUK

Also, welcome back Francis


----------



## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> n!gra please! 😂😂
> 
> 
> 
> I can't comment on this cali king topic really as I have never encountered a US bred or wild Cali King but it is feasible that the potential lean towards aggressive animals is to do with the feeding of the offspring? Aggressive baby snakes are often better feeders, better feeders have a better rate of survival and potentially increased speed at which they reach sexual maturity. Also hobby breeders, if presented with a clutch of similar looking snakes will often choose the first to feed as their holdbacks for future breeding, I know I do. This could inadvertently favour certain traits in the captive population. A friend in Europe who has been breeding Black Head Pythons for many years has always chosen the best feeders as his holdbacks and says that now clutches from 3 gens of choosing these holdbacks he gets 80% to eat defrost on their first feed, compared to 20% when he started (blackheads are notoriously difficult to get feeding).


Whenever a population of animals is bred in isolation, you will get certain traits coming forward over time. We have seen this in all sorts of populations of animals in all kinds of ways... it is simply an inescapable bi-product of captive breeding. The UK is geographically isolated no matter how you slice it, and the sharp reduction in importation of reptiles, both wild caught and captive bred, only exacerbates this. 15-20 years ago lots of places were still importing, nowadays very few places do and a lot of that importation is from captive populations in Europe via the shows as opposed to wild populations.

You only have to look at older stock lists compared to now to see just how hard kingsnakes have been hit in the hobby, I remember being able to walk into places like Crystal Palace Reptiles and choose from 15-20 different subspecies of kings and milks including all the _getula_ (former taxonomy) subspecies. They have all gone now, most are really hard to find and restricted to a few niche keepers and breeders - many of whom also have been playing around with morphs or hybrids (for some reason _Lampropeltis_ seem to get hybridised a lot). That is going to have an effect on the gene pool over time.

Grey-Banded king snakes are a good example where desired traits have resulted in a heavy skewing of captive animals here; in America there is more diversity in pattern and colour intensity than there is in the UK, where selective breeding for brighter, orange banded animals has made specimens with bright orange saddles the norm and the grey-on-grey animals a rarity. Of course this also happens in American populations as breeders do tend to focus on things like brightness and pattern, but this is a little more mitigated by the fact that fresh blood can be collected there.

The truth is we just don't know how selective breeding or inbreeding depression / genetic bottlenecking affects our populations of captive reptiles in ways we cannot readily see. So yes I am in full agreement a behavioural trait could come to the fore without our knowing.


Ironically I just looked at Facebook and saw this, it echoes opinions I have shared many times and has shaped how I breed my own animals, for example different localities of _Elaphe dione_ or Green trinket snakes. It applies just as much to the North American snakes where some breeders focus strongly on locality and others on morphs.


----------



## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> Also, welcome back Francis


Thanks, good to see not much has changed haha.


----------



## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> Uh huh...
> I imagine there are many long time members and hobbyists that close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears and tell themselves the latter part is all reality.
> Perhaps it makes them feel better. There is a scientific term for it - Tall Poppy Syndrome. I'd post a scientific paper about it, but something something about credibility...
> In the meantime, I will still be around being irritating and posting about my imaginary snakes in my imaginary collection... lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies. Well you know... this _is_ RFUK. Cannot have somebody post an opinion or have a discussion without somebody else throwing their toys out of the pram. No doubt it will once again be ascribed to my irritating personality
> And I've not even been posting much on here lately what with work and the house move! Maybe I just bring it out of people... like lithium in water.


Or maybe you're simply right.


----------



## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> Whenever a population of animals is bred in isolation, you will get certain traits coming forward over time. We have seen this in all sorts of populations of animals in all kinds of ways... it is simply an inescapable bi-product of captive breeding. The UK is geographically isolated no matter how you slice it, and the sharp reduction in importation of reptiles, both wild caught and captive bred, only exacerbates this. 15-20 years ago lots of places were still importing, nowadays very few places do and a lot of that importation is from captive populations in Europe via the shows as opposed to wild populations.
> 
> You only have to look at older stock lists compared to now to see just how hard kingsnakes have been hit in the hobby, I *remember being able to walk into places like Crystal Palace Reptiles and choose from 15-20 different subspecies of kings and milks including all the getula (former taxonomy) subspecies. They have all gone now, most are really hard to find and restricted to a few niche keepers and breeders* - many of whom also have been playing around with morphs or hybrids (for some reason _Lampropeltis_ seem to get hybridised a lot). That is going to have an effect on the gene pool over time.
> 
> Grey-Banded king snakes are a good example where desired traits have resulted in a heavy skewing of captive animals here; in America there is more diversity in pattern and colour intensity than there is in the UK, where selective breeding for brighter, orange banded animals has made specimens with bright orange saddles the norm and the grey-on-grey animals a rarity. Of course this also happens in American populations as breeders do tend to focus on things like brightness and pattern, but this is a little more mitigated by the fact that fresh blood can be collected there.
> 
> The truth is we just don't know how selective breeding or inbreeding depression / genetic bottlenecking affects our populations of captive reptiles in ways we cannot readily see. So yes I am in full agreement a behavioural trait could come to the fore without our knowing.
> 
> 
> Ironically I just looked at Facebook and saw this, it echoes opinions I have shared many times and has shaped how I breed my own animals, for example different localities of _Elaphe dione_ or Green trinket snakes. It applies just as much to the North American snakes where some breeders focus strongly on locality and others on morphs.
> 
> View attachment 369265


Yep, also Ray Hine from his little hatchling shop at the bottom of his garden in Wickford, Cold Blooded, Wiltons, Charlton Aquatics & Reptiles, & Scales And Fangs- they all stocked a large to reasonable variety of kings (both _getula _& non _getula _species) & milks back in the day. Of those, only Cold Blooded still sells kings or milks to any degree, & even then only 3 or 4 _getula _& ex-_getula_ kings & the odd Sinaloan or Hondo milk. Ray since moved on to just Leo's & then retired, Scales And Fangs changed hands & became 2 shops, World Of Reptiles & Jurassic Ark- neither of which stock anything out of the ordinary. Wilton's only ever gets the odd king or milk once in a blue moon these days, as does CPR.


----------



## Thrasops

wilkinss77 said:


> Yep, also Ray Hine from his little hatchling shop at the bottom of his garden in Wickford, Cold Blooded, Wiltons, Charlton Aquatics & Reptiles, & Scales And Fangs- they all stocked a large to reasonable variety of kings (both _getula _& non _getula _species) & milks back in the day. Of those, only Cold Blooded still sells kings or milks to any degree, & even then only 3 or 4 _getula _& ex-_getula_ kings & the odd Sinaloan or Hondo milk. Ray since moved on to just Leo's & then retired, Scales And Fangs changed hands & became 2 shops, World Of Reptiles & Jurassic Ark- neither of which stock anything out of the ordinary. Wilton's only ever gets the odd king or milk once in a blue moon these days, as does CPR.


Neil Little and Matthew Pearman still breed a lot of kings and milks too (including morphs and hybrids) but overall the genus has taken a huge dive in the UK hobby these last few years.

I remember how stoked Chaz was to get the pretty holbrooki he had in at SnA recently… and how he regularly bemoans the fact that snakes like that have become so rare in the UK… and I remember how shocked I was at how long it was with him before it got bought.


----------



## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> Neil Little and Matthew Pearman still breed a lot of kings and milks too (including morphs and hybrids) *but overall the genus has taken a huge dive in the UK hobby these last few years.*
> 
> I remember how stoked Chaz was to get the pretty holbrooki he had in at SnA recently… and how he regularly bemoans the *fact that snakes like that have become so rare in the UK*… and I remember how shocked I was at how long it was with him before it got bought.


But I wonder why, though? Why have they gone from being commonly available staple shop stock & alternatives to corns, to strictly niche rarities that only a handful of shops stock very few of?


----------



## Thrasops

wilkinss77 said:


> But I wonder why, though? Why have they gone from being commonly available staple shop stock & alternatives to corns, to strictly niche rarities that only a handful of shops stock very few of?


Honestly? I have never been entirely sure. It is something I have discussed with people like Chaz for hours and hours. Maybe nobody can give one answer. I suspect it is a combination of reasons, and many of them overlap with the shift in other species diversity as well. Potentially it could include one or all of the following:

The morph craze - or rather, the Ball python craze; king snakes have morphs for days themselves but they never fetched the sort of value Balls do. And the recent FBH survey has strongly implied more people keep Ball pythons than any other species (even Corn snakes) by quite a large margin.

Maybe it is ascribed value? You used to be able to go to CPR and buy one of the more common _getula_ subspecies for £20-£40, and morphs like 'hypo flame Brooks' for £100. Perhaps breeders simply did not consider them worth their time any more? But that does not make sense as people have been breeding Corn snakes all along and those are not exactly expensive.

The massive reduction of importation. Shops like CPR used to import them from places like NERD and from Russian breeders in the 2000s. It does not seem like anywhere near that level of importation has happened for years now and that has hit the UK population of a lot of species, not just kings.

The gradual narrowing of suggested 'beginner' species from a whole slew of potential species to 'Corn snakes or Royal pythons' over time. We have all witnessed it happen. It is not just king snakes. Garters, temperate rat snakes, _Pituophis_, water snakes, house snakes, Rosy boas, _getula_ kings... these are all hardy, easy to keep species suited for beginners yet they have fallen by the wayside as picks for a first snake.

Plus, _getula_ king snakes occupy a weird place as a first species. Most are capable of getting substantially bigger than a Corn snake, and are not as slow and 'derpy' as a Royal. Plenty can hit six feet and are branded as 'ravenous, food happy biters' and this dissuades or intimidates some beginners today maybe? It is certainly really weird that right now I would find it far easier to go out and find a Mandarin snake, a Bamboo rat snake, a Carpet python or a Mountain king snake from a pet shop than a _getula_ king. All these animals used to be glamorous, rare, sought after, expensive species twenty years ago. Now they are far more staple and widely sold than the humble _getula_ king.... and they offer more to an amateur snake keeper maybe? Brighter colours, smaller size, seem more 'exotic?' Except at least some of the 'getula' complex kings like _splendida_ and _holbrooki_ can be absolutely stunning and far hardier... Honestly I don't know.


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## Rooster1200

Malc said:


> Wow, this introduction post went off the rails quickly !


I'm a member of a lot of forums -- music, guitars, sports, travel etc, and can honestly say that there is more passion here than in any of them hahaha!


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