# Can mixed species dart frogs live together ???



## craigd

Hi all, I'm new to the frog world, but am amazed by dart/Poision arrow frogs.

I have a 5ft fish tank filled with mixed species malawis for maximum colour and pattern, it's my pride and joy.

Now starting to get an interest in frogs.

Not done any reall research into them yet, thought I would start here.

I am trying to find out firstly, if I can keep trios of different species or same species but different colours together, or do they have to be kept alone. The terranium would be a custom made 5ft long x 2ft high x 2ft deep. So hoping to keep quite a few frogs.

Before I go any further into the possible creation of this, could my plan work ..........

Please let me know tah


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## Wolfenrook

Can they, sometimes, should they, rarely.

Most dart 'species' are actually just naturally occuring morphs for one thing, and will hybridise together, this is a big no. Heck, even leucs, tinctorius and auratus can hybridise, as they belong to the same group.

SOME can be kept together, once you know them well enough to ensure their needs are met etc. However the advice most of us on here tend to give is that if you have to ask you aren't ready to do it.

Regards


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## frogman955

It`s been said already, DON`T MIX.
Do your research.

Mike


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## Drayvan

I'm sure the dartfrog brigade will be along to correct me if i'm wrong, but yes same species can be kept in small groups. A lot of species come in a bit of variety pattern wise although they'll tend to still be the same colour : victory: As for mixing species, the general consensus is that nature has made some pretty perfect examples of beautiful frogs, so mixing isn't really advised to prevent hybridising. Those that won't create hybrids may well fight or need different conditions. Hope this helps!

Edit... they beat me to it lol


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## Zerox Z21

If your vivarium would be custom anyway, probably makes sense to start with a smaller one with a single species until you're more experienced.
As above, the experienced dart keepers here will advise against it, until you know yourself what might mix. Since you suggest quite a large size, I'm sure you could fit at least two smaller vivs in the same space; just have two with different species in two separate vivs if there's any particular that interest you.

Research is the name of the game here also.


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## Wolfenrook

Not really accurate no. As I explained, most dart 'species' aren't actually species, but morphs of a species. Take the tinctorius for example, you have Regina, citronella, Alanis, Azureas etc. All of these the exact same species, none of which should be kept with the other morphs. Then you have the groups, and again you shouldn't mix different members of the group, eg. leucs, tinctorius or auratus.

There ARE however some dart morphs that actually exhibit colour variation within a morph, best examples been cemetary bastis and Punta Clara (both morphs of oophaga pumilio).

A colony of one morph is fine for SOME species however, eg. d. leucomelas, d. auratus, p. terriblis to name just a few. However some, such as tinctorius, the females are prone to fighting, or in the case of oophaga pumilio the males.

Best advice, find ONE species/morph that you really like, then come back and ask for advice for that particular one. Then get into doing your research and preparation. Don't rush it.

Ade


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## Wolfenrook

Zerox Z21 said:


> If your vivarium would be custom anyway, probably makes sense to start with a smaller one with a single species until you're more experienced.
> As above, the experienced dart keepers here will advise against it, until you know yourself what might mix. Since you suggest quite a large size, I'm sure you could fit at least two smaller vivs in the same space; just have two with different species in two separate vivs if there's any particular that interest you.
> 
> Research is the name of the game here also.


All good advice.

Ade


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## frogman955

Wolfenrook said:


> However some, such as tinctorius, the females are prone to fighting, or in the case of oophaga pumilio the males* (also females)*
> 
> *Best advice, find ONE species/morph that you really like, then come back and ask for advice for that particular one. Then get into doing your research and preparation. Don't rush it.*
> 
> Ade


Almost right.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook

I was talking about to the point of death Mike. Quite a few pum keepers, myself included, keep female pums together, and all we see is a bit of wrestling. lol


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## berksmike

Just to add to what the guys have said research is the key. Im of the opinion that its best sticking to one species per tank, many species coexist in the wild but even a 5ft tank represents a small space compared to the wild. People do keep mixed tanks but it is important to be able to recognise signs of stress or bullying which is best learned through experience.

Fortunately there are a number of hardy species, ideal for the dart beginner, which do well in large groups and would look stunning in a large display viv. It is important to keep one morph of each species per tank to avoid cross breeding.
These include:

Dendrobates leucomelas
Dendrobates auratus
Adelphobates galactonotus 
any Phyllobates species
any Epipedobates species
mantella species (although generally they require slightly lower temps than most darts)
Although not always recommended by everyone i believe the larger Ranitomeya are suitable too.

While you decide what species you'd like its worth practicing breeding livefood, particularly fruit flies which is likely to be your staple food.
If its a flat fronted tank you could consider splitting it in two with a dividing glass wall.

Hope this helps and welcone to darts!

Ps if you are ever near Liverpool and want to see some vivs frogs and livefood setups give me a shout.


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## craigd

Thankyou for the advise people, at least I know where to start now


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## Ron Magpie

craigd said:


> Thankyou for the advise people, at least I know where to start now


Well done for listening to it, dude; a lot of people don't.:2thumb: The trouble is that people are used to keeping fish as a 'community'; it generally doesn't work so well for frogs.


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## Wolfenrook

Absolutely well done for been one of the folks that listens. 

It's not doom and gloom at least. With frogs like oophaga pumilio Punta Clara, you don't need to mix to get different colours, plus there's the plants. 

Ade


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## craigd

I am a very keen gardener also so the plants are half the enjoyment lol


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## fatlad69

Wolfenrook said:


> Absolutely well done for been one of the folks that listens.
> 
> It's not doom and gloom at least. With frogs like oophaga pumilio Punta Clara, you don't need to mix to get different colours, plus there's the plants.
> 
> Ade


I agree, a viv that size could look amazing with broms and orchids. You could really go to town on the planting. A herd of terriblis would look great in a viv that size and easier to feed if you don't like fruit flies.

Adam


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## frogman955

Well Craig you survived any potential rants aimed at you so well done.
My Leucs are set up in a 130 gallon aquarium and they thrive in it.
Photo`s here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/783750-just-stu.html
If I were to start again with a different frog in that size of tank i`d seriously consider Terribs, either Mints which I already have or Yellows.
A large ish frog easy to keep and very bold so you`ll see them out all the time. Golden poison frog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You could also keep a large group together which is what you`d like.
You could probably have 8 Terribs in that tank without being cramped, leaving a bit of room to spare.

Mike


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## soundstounite

fatlad69 said:


> I agree, a viv that size could look amazing with broms and orchids. You could really go to town on the planting. A herd of terriblis would look great in a viv that size and easier to feed if you don't like fruit flies.
> 
> Adam


In america i believe they feed other forum members to terribilis:mf_dribble:,but I'm not totally sure whether they have enough terribilis to fullfil demand,once the black foot come out of UE then maybe,things might be better over there:2thumb:.

Sorry Craig, i need to be smiling alot of late.:whistling2:

Craig first welcome,second a dart viv of that size could be breathtaking,I'm with the advice already given 100% also take Mike up on his kind offer if you can,one can't beat seeing a set up and talking.

If you are really serious then as well as working all the usual what species do i really like,how does this ecosystem in a glass box really work type of stuff get cracking with some starter cultures of feeders.something to get proficient at without frogs not after.

Build your viv out to your chosen species think on what they need.

Good luck and enjoy your learning

Stu


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## terryTHEfrog

Youllbe surprised at the amount off food they eat !!! I am


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## YOGI BEAR

Just curious if they are just morphs then wouldn't they just be making new morphs rather than hybrids if they mated

or is this about keeping the morphs pure?


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## frogfreak

soundstounite said:


> In america i believe they feed other forum members to terribilis:mf_dribble:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Ron Magpie

YOGI BEAR said:


> Just curious if they are just morphs then wouldn't they just be making new morphs rather than hybrids if they mated
> 
> *or is this about keeping the morphs pure?*


Pretty much, yeah- but remember these are regional races, developed in the wild, rather than captivity-induced colour varieties. So not comparable with say, corn snake colour morphs.


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## frogfreak

YOGI BEAR said:


> Just curious if they are just morphs then wouldn't they just be making new morphs rather than hybrids if they mated
> 
> or is this about keeping the morphs pure?


It's about keeping morph pure. There are so many dart frogs to choose from there's no need to create anything that mother nature hasn't already provided us. I have yet to see anyone that can keep them all. Even the largest breeder! Now that I think about it, I wonder how many different species/morphs there are? :hmm:


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## YOGI BEAR

Thanks for clearing that up

so are there are no captivity induced dartfrog morphs?


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## berksmike

There are unfortunately some, particularly tinc morphs, one example being the Agreja morph deliberately created by a Dutch breeder. 
As has been said its not something to be tolerated and is unecessary given that Mother Nature has done a great job already producing hundreds of beautiful dart species and even more morphs.

Morphguide - die einzelnen Varianten


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## terryTHEfrog

berksmike said:


> There are unfortunately some, particularly tinc morphs, one example being the Agreja morph deliberately created by a Dutch breeder.
> As has been said its not something to be tolerated and is unecessary given that Mother Nature has done a great job already producing hundreds of beautiful dart species and even more morphs.
> 
> Morphguide - die einzelnen Varianten



Bloody hell and that's just tincs! !!!!!!!!


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## Zerox Z21

It's not inherently bad to try to breed morphs. The issue is there's little good reason to and the last thing anyone wants is such hybridisation to go unchecked and thus our captive frogs get 'polluted' genetically.
It's just tempting problems and people shout alot and also there's every chance of hybrid being sold/bought unknowingly.


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## frogman955

Zerox how many dart frogs do you have ?


Mike


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## soundstounite

frogman955 said:


> Zerox how many dart frogs do you have ?
> 
> 
> Mike


Bloody 'eck mate,I'm glad you didn't ask me that,or worse Glenn,
sorry bro just couldn't help it:blush:

Dart keepers have one viv....and then more than one viv,they can't count the frogs because they are too busy worrying about the number of springtails flies and other assorted beasties.

Not really much to add to the morph debate,or even to dwell on the assorted tinc morphs,other than Saul and Atachibakka in the same breath:gasp:

.On a serious day i might add,damn i wish this was all based on site specific,but maybe more fun to just let new guys have a look at this
Oophaga pumilio Morphguide
enjoy

Stu


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## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> Bloody 'eck mate,I'm glad you didn't ask me that,or worse Glenn,
> sorry bro just couldn't help it:blush:
> 
> Dart keepers have one viv....and then more than one viv,they can't count the frogs because they are too busy worrying about the number of springtails flies and other assorted beasties.
> 
> Not really much to add to the morph debate,or even to dwell on the assorted tinc morphs,other than Saul and Atachibakka in the same breath:gasp:
> 
> .On a serious day i might add,damn i wish this was all based on site specific,but maybe more fun to just let new guys have a look at this
> Oophaga pumilio Morphguide
> enjoy
> 
> Stu


You're losing count already? You don't even have that many yet. :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2: Seriously, stop counting bugs. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Wolfenrook

frogman955 said:


> Zerox how many dart frogs do you have ?
> 
> 
> Mike


I wonder if he's seen your qestion bud? Have you tried a PM to ask?

Ade


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## Zerox Z21

Wolfenrook said:


> I wonder if he's seen your qestion bud? Have you tried a PM to ask?
> 
> Ade


Sorry I'm here 
I...don't have any? I'm just speaking what I know. Should I not?

I did only mean my comment in the sense of creating hybrids or morphs isn't terrible in general, such as the python morphs, unless I'm unaware of some drama involved there. Just that in dart frogs it's particularly pointless with the risk of them being passed around unchecked.


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## frogman955

What concerns me Zerox is that you are dishing out advice to people when in fact you have no experience of keeping dart frogs.
This thread for example was started by a newcomer to the hobby and it has turned into something which has nothing to do with his original question.
If you want a debate on why you DON`T breed hybrids then feel free to set up a new thread on which i`m sure we`ll all post something for you.
It can be hard enough trying to find decent advice from experienced keepers and the last thing newbies need is advice from a newbie who doesn`t have, or has never had frogs.
I`m not doubting what you claim to know.
But caresheets and books are nothing like keeping the real thing, or in other words getting hands on.
I spent a year researching before I bought my first frogs and took even longer before I was anywhere near ready to offer advice.
Now i`m confident enough to argue with anyone about what I know.
But, the difference between us is that I DO KNOW.
There are often questions thrown up which I don`t have the answer to in which case I say nothing.
That doesn`t stop me from going and finding out what the answer is just so I can try and help the person asking.
I`m not alone in thinking what i`ve just posted and we have no problem with you trying to help like we do, but would you take advice from someone with no experience ?
Don`t take this as a personal dig at you as it`s not.
It`s not a rant, it`s only a view being expressed.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie

Zerox Z21 said:


> Sorry I'm here
> I...don't have any? I'm just speaking what I know. Should I not?
> 
> I did only mean my comment in the sense of creating hybrids or morphs isn't terrible in general, such as the python morphs, unless I'm unaware of some drama involved there. Just that in dart frogs it's particularly pointless with the risk of them being passed around unchecked.





frogman955 said:


> What concerns me Zerox is that you are dishing out advice to people when in fact you have no experience of keeping dart frogs.
> This thread for example was started by a newcomer to the hobby and it has turned into something which has nothing to do with his original question.
> If you want a debate on why you DON`T breed hybrids then feel free to set up a new thread on which i`m sure we`ll all post something for you.
> It can be hard enough trying to find decent advice from experienced keepers and the last thing newbies need is advice from a newbie who doesn`t have, or has never had frogs.
> I`m not doubting what you claim to know.
> But caresheets and books are nothing like keeping the real thing, or in other words getting hands on.
> I spent a year researching before I bought my first frogs and took even longer before I was anywhere near ready to offer advice.
> Now i`m confident enough to argue with anyone about what I know.
> But, the difference between us is that I DO KNOW.
> There are often questions thrown up which I don`t have the answer to in which case I say nothing.
> That doesn`t stop me from going and finding out what the answer is just so I can try and help the person asking.
> I`m not alone in thinking what i`ve just posted and we have no problem with you trying to help like we do, but would you take advice from someone with no experience ?
> Don`t take this as a personal dig at you as it`s not.
> It`s not a rant, it`s only a view being expressed.
> 
> 
> Mike


It's a good point, Mike (and of course I, and I'm sure Ade, knew what you were getting at when you asked the question), but I'm sure you will agree that some skills and knowledge are transferable, and if Zerox has been paying attention on here, as well as researching elsewhere, he might have picked up some knowledge? Although I have kept umteen species of frogs over more years than I care to remember, I've never kept darts; I still have paid enough attention to those that *have* to know _some_ basics; surely I can't be unique? Just a thought.


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## Wolfenrook

That's very very very true Ron, however in Zerox's case I'm sorry to say that most of the advice he gives, in this section and others, is quite bad advice. The fishkeeping section for example is full of advice with information that just isn't true. So in this instance, I do have to agree with Mike that Zerox needs to take a little more time to learn, and spend less time trying to look clever as newbies are reading his advice and assuming it comes from somebody who knows what they are talking about, which reading Zerox's many many posts in the various sections would not appear to be the case.

Now you know me well enough to know that I don't for one minute feel that been a newbie doesn't mean you can't have learned enough to share what you have learned, and so get involved in giving advice. But as I said, read this guys many and varied posts, and you soon realise he's posting in nearly EVERY section of the forum giving advice on everything from canaries, through dwarf shrimp (some of the worst advice I've ever read given there) to poison dart frogs, with very little evidence of him actually having done any decent research first.

To those of you who may feel angry at me for saying this, please do stop for a moment and go read his posts. The level of terrible advice he has been giving is of real concern!

Ade


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## Ron Magpie

Cool- I'm not here to point out faults. Personally, I'd say I have kept lots of different frogs over the years, and I've learned each time. I'm learning l*ots* on this site through chatting to other keepers and seeing what they do- I'm not always going to agree with a method that doesn't work for me- but we can all make changes.

If I see something that really doesn't work, on the other hand, I hope I'd say so.


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## thevilla1

*i did... tut tut*

Hi... i had in the past when i was in the hobby about 8 tanks....all but 1 tank were individual type....1 tank had leucs and tricolors together and breeding (not with each other) for years.


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## kjeno

*Mixing auratus morphs*

I had the same question about mixing auratus morphs green and black with blue and black for example. I hear NO NO NO, but I had went to an aquarium where they had in fact mixed 3 different colored auratus together and they seemed fine. Any thoughts on this, thanks


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## kjeno

thevilla1 said:


> Hi... i had in the past when i was in the hobby about 8 tanks....all but 1 tank were individual type....1 tank had leucs and tricolors together and breeding (not with each other) for years.


That is what Im thinking wouldnt it be like dogs and wolves they dont breed with one another although they are canines


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## ian14

kjeno said:


> That is what Im thinking wouldnt it be like dogs and wolves they dont breed with one another although they are canines


You know that wolves and dogs will readily breed together though? It's a way that people try to get around the DWAA, by having a wolf/dog hybrid. 2nd generation doesn't require a DWAL but can still look almost the same as a wolf.


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## soundstounite

kjeno said:


> I had the same question about mixing auratus morphs green and black with blue and black for example. I hear NO NO NO, but I had went to an aquarium where they had in fact mixed 3 different colored auratus together and they seemed fine. Any thoughts on this, thanks


Basically most more experienced keepers hold the heads and want to cry when they see this at an institution it send out exactlly the wrong message to the new guy and this above is exactly what happens

K don't mix differing morphs of a species,it is the last thing we all want, we the dart world have no need on man made hybrids, nature has given us it all already.

There are so many amazing morphs of auratus we need to try and keep those morphs pure for the next guy,probably more than that actually with the rate phibs are disappearing. 

We can constantly reply on wild imports keeping morphs viable

I guess if you haven't done a full QT regime then you also run certain risks as these morphs come from slightly different places pathogen wise.

Mate public displays are just that a display so we viewers can go have a looksee, but for most more serious keepers mixing morphs is full of pitfalls
for our hobby and the frogs we are custodians of.

all the luck bro

stu


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## dps51

I have a exo terra terrarium 90x45x45cm
with three species in which are all males 7 in total 
2 yellow banded frog
3 dyeing dart frog
2 blue azureus
and have been living together happily for over two years now


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