# High Ammonia Levels - Sudden and strange



## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Hi.

I have a 350l terrapin tank with a couple of Labidochromis Caeruleus, normally about 250l-290l full for basking area for the turts. Recently lost a couple of Labs unfortunately down to ammonia poisoning, which I had no idea about how high the levels were as I always do reg. water changes and it appeared to be very sudden. They have been in there about a year now, and turtles do not go for the fish as they are too fast anyway, the main issue is with trying to solve the ammonia build up.

I tested and got well over 8ppm, so I have added ammo lock to keep fish from dying, and cleaned filters and done water changes for the past two days. It seems that the levels are still high... the only difference I have done is add an autofeeder (a pond one) to the tank to try it out for when we leave it for a week, and it feeds at 18hour intervals, when we normally feed bi-daily... Could this amount of food be the reason do you think that the ammonia has began to build up, because it was literally only happening after we started using this, but the food dropped is so small each time I cant see that it is that....

Other than that, I have a clean mechanical filter now with a nitra-zorb pad put in today, and 12l of alfagrog in the other filter that I checked today and briefly cleaned in the tank water.

Any help or ideas greatly appreciated! thanks


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

Why on earth are you keeping Rift Lake cichlids with Terrapins?????? For one if they're harrased then that will stress the fish and they require totally different water requirements. Get the fish out and keep the Terrapins. An auto feeder will not help the situation and you need to reduce the level to zero. Ask a very kind aquarium shop to keep your fish and then sort the tank out. And please don't put them back together.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

To be fair I did it at my own risk and consulted many people before hand, and I am 100% certain they are fine together and I have never seen them being harassed. I consulted many terrapin experts and the general opinion was that these were the best species to keep with them, and they were not wrong 

The issue with ammonia has occurred recently with the levels rising, and the conditions for the rift cichlids are favoured over terrapins and they have been happy and grown a lot in the past year, in which I have never seen a terrapin chase them. The two I lost only occurred due to large increase in ammonia which is why I posted this :/

I assume from no responses that nobody has any ideas so I will keep changing water and see if anything comes up.

Autofeeder was the only thing I could consider as it's fairly recent, but still makes no sense... The issue has to be with the bio filter, but I dont understand why it's starting not converting ammonia :/


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Going to close this thread as I dont want it turning into a debate about keeping cichlids with terrapins, I have done research and find no problems with it at all. The issue is with the ammonia, due to no replies I will close the thread.

Thanks guys


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

brysaa2 said:


> Going to close this thread as I dont want it turning into a debate about keeping cichlids with terrapins, I have done research and find no problems with it at all. The issue is with the ammonia, due to no replies I will close the thread.
> 
> Thanks guys


Dude, r u serious? Why ask for advice if ur not going to listen? 1st of all, screw what you heard, turtles produce WAYYYYY to much waste and ammonia to keep with fish, especially as they grow bigger. You should not keep turtles and fish together for this very reason. To most people that is just common sense....you close the thread because you don't want to hear how to fix the problem and you will never the solve the problem. 

Everyone here knows I am very blunt and outright w/ people and I'll tell you like it is whether you want to hear it or not, cuz animals' lives are more important than people's feelings, so believe me when I tell you, you need to listen to the advice that has been given to you. If you are taking the advice of a LFS, that is your 1st mistake, and the 2nd mistake is thinking you can keep ammonia levels suitable for fish while in the same tank as a filthy pair of turtles (which i really love diamondback terrapins). 

Stop THINKING about it and remove the fish before they die as well. Don't you think many people have already tried this before w/ certain degrees of failure? The amount of food has nothing to do w/ it....it is entirely the turtles, combined w/ the growing Cichlids adding to the ammonia levels. In the meantime, I suggest you do 50% water changes almost DAILY until you can get the M'Buna elsewhere. Stop debating this in your head and stop asking yourself "Who the hell does this guy think he is?". Just take the fish OUT. You can thank us later.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> Dude, r u serious? Why ask for advice if ur not going to listen? 1st of all, screw what you heard, turtles produce WAYYYYY to much waste and ammonia to keep with fish, especially as they grow bigger. You should not keep turtles and fish together for this very reason. To most people that is just common sense....you close the thread because you don't want to hear how to fix the problem and you will never the solve the problem.
> 
> Everyone here knows I am very blunt and outright w/ people and I'll tell you like it is whether you want to hear it or not, cuz animals' lives are more important than people's feelings, so believe me when I tell you, you need to listen to the advice that has been given to you. If you are taking the advice of a LFS, that is your 1st mistake, and the 2nd mistake is thinking you can keep ammonia levels suitable for fish while in the same tank as a filthy pair of turtles (which i really love diamondback terrapins).
> 
> Stop THINKING about it and remove the fish before they die as well. Don't you think many people have already tried this before w/ certain degrees of failure? The amount of food has nothing to do w/ it....it is entirely the turtles, combined w/ the growing Cichlids adding to the ammonia levels. In the meantime, I suggest you do 50% water changes almost DAILY until you can get the M'Buna elsewhere. Stop debating this in your head and stop asking yourself "Who the hell does this guy think he is?". Just take the fish OUT. You can thank us later.


I closed the thread for this reason... and the fact nobody replied so I figured nobody knows any answers as well, which is fine. I didn't ask for opinions on whether to keep terrapins with fish to be fair, so that alone is why I am closing this. Thanks and don't respond any more to this please.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

No, you closed the thread because you asked for advice that you refuse to listen to because it doesn't suit your preferences, however it DOES suit your animals. Stop being stubborn and just DO the right thing. I have dealt w/ many people like you in my lifetime and you are the type of person from the mentallity that you are showing, who won't learn their lesson until several animals have to DIE. This is not an "opinion"......the 2 helpful posts u got in this thread from other users are FACTS....and YOU don't have any logical answer for the raised ammonia levels in addition to that, so stop watching FOX News, pretending Global Warming doesn't exist and thinking you know what's right for your animals and just DO THE RIGHT THING. How many more animals have to DIE for you to understand you are WRONG??? At LEAST remove the fish until you figure out what the problem is.

IMO (and this might not be so much opinion as FACT), people like you shouldn't be ALLOWED to own animals.

If ur still not happy, try re-posting this thread in the turtles and tortoises section - but they may not be as nice as I am being to you.


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm sorry matey but your so so wrong. The first thing you need to do is remove the fish. Then you need to sort the tank out and you can do this with water changes. But if the levels are that high I would seriously ask a very helpful friendly shop to help you out. You may be lucky and find one and if you do then I'd strip the tank down and start from afresh. You could end up spending loads on chemicals to lower the levels and if they don't work then you will have wasted all that money and still have no where to keep your pets. But please please listen and take the advice given to you as it's meant to help you and your livestock ok

I don't care what anyone says, those species should never never be kept together and it's just not right. The mbuna you have are from a Rift Lake, requiring hard water and they need to be kept with fish! Other Rift Lake fish!

You could always ignore what's posted on here and go and ask your "epxert" mates but I've worked in the trade and think I know a little so please sort the problem out one step at a time ok.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Blurboy said:


> I'm sorry matey but your so so wrong. The first thing you need to do is remove the fish. Then you need to sort the tank out and you can do this with water changes. But if the levels are that high I would seriously ask a very helpful friendly shop to help you out. You may be lucky and find one and if you do then I'd strip the tank down and start from afresh. You could end up spending loads on chemicals to lower the levels and if they don't work then you will have wasted all that money and still have no where to keep your pets. But please please listen and take the advice given to you as it's meant to help you and your livestock ok
> 
> I don't care what anyone says, those species should never never be kept together and it's just not right. The mbuna you have are from a Rift Lake, requiring hard water and they need to be kept with fish! Other Rift Lake fish!
> 
> You could always ignore what's posted on here and go and ask your "epxert" mates but I've worked in the trade and think I know a little so please sort the problem out one step at a time ok.



QFT. I know I'm rather aggressive and a bit extreme, but at the cost of animals' lives, this is of minor concern to me when weighed against the options - saving lives.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Ok guys, this is closed purely coz I can't remove it when I realised nobody could help. I wasn't being shitty, its text so you read it how you read it, was saying nobody replied so that's fine, and that's why I closed it. Once opinions start coming in it starts into a debate, which I don't need or want, I came here for help not to be grilled! Plus I asked about ammonia, not hey guys should I keep fish with terrapins, and you 'judged me' as a sort of person that shouldn't have animals, saving lives, etc and all this, way out of context! Sound like were talking about a war or something lol.

It's obvious to most, yes, fish and terrapins are dodgy, and may end up as food. But people feed all sorts of animals live food, so hows that different? Neither of you keep fish or terrapins I assume, and yes I use terrapin forums and the turtle section on here, and many people have fish with them, it's not something they get that fussed by. I merely posted in fish section as I thought maybe some of you guys may know about water chemistry better is all - wanted to get them sorted a.s.a.p. Anyway, this is the god of turtles pages, Austins, Article: What Can I Keep With A Turtle?
look on here and my species are listed, which is WHY I got them in the first place, after weeks on contacting people and making sure I get good compatibility. If I didn't care about the fish I wouldn't posted on here and done a weeks water changes to sort them out. That solved my issue anyway in the end, a marine forum helped me out a lot and we found it was ammo lock staying in the water giving false readings. Waters back to being crystal clear again, fish are nice and fat, and the terrapins are getting on with their own life completely oblivious to the fishes lives. 

I took this time to reply to you guys as I felt it was polite. Hope you can see where I'm coming from, and I do see where you guys came from advising on fish, I used to have marines myself and wouldn'tve ever put them in danger for the world. A blank tank with turtles is pretty boring for anyone


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> No, you closed the thread because you asked for advice that you refuse to listen to because it doesn't suit your preferences, however it DOES suit your animals. Stop being stubborn and just DO the right thing. I have dealt w/ many people like you in my lifetime and you are the type of person from the mentallity that you are showing, who won't learn their lesson until several animals have to DIE. This is not an "opinion"......the 2 helpful posts u got in this thread from other users are FACTS....and YOU don't have any logical answer for the raised ammonia levels in addition to that, so stop watching FOX News, pretending Global Warming doesn't exist and thinking you know what's right for your animals and just DO THE RIGHT THING. How many more animals have to DIE for you to understand you are WRONG??? At LEAST remove the fish until you figure out what the problem is.
> 
> IMO (and this might not be so much opinion as FACT), people like you shouldn't be ALLOWED to own animals.
> 
> If ur still not happy, try re-posting this thread in the turtles and tortoises section - but they may not be as nice as I am being to you.


Also wtf is this lol. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay OTT man. As I said, problem was minor and due to ammo lock reading positive, thanks to people helping my issue. How on gods earth can you come up with all that crap from not knowing a thing about me. Jeez none of it's relevant at all lol


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

So, yeh... firstly... terrapins really do produce a lot of ammonia which will not be beneficial to the fish. Other than separating the two you will likely have this problem re-occur. Otherwise:



brysaa2 said:


> I always do reg. water changes


The point of these is to remove Nitrates, not Ammonnia. They won't stop Ammonia building up to toxic levels as the toxic levels are so low.



brysaa2 said:


> turtles do not go for the fish as they are too fast anyway,


You know they're too fast... but the turtles don't go for them? :whistling2: Anyways I won't come back to that...



brysaa2 said:


> I tested and got well over 8ppm,


That's feckin crazy :| If it's correct...



brysaa2 said:


> and cleaned filters and done water changes for the past two days.


What biological filters do you have? Remember as the terrapin waste is going into the tank, it's like having ten massive oscars living in there - you will need a _lot_ of biological filtration (5X recommended tank size perhaps?) to remove ammonia/nitrites effectively.

Secondly, how did you wash the filters? I assume you know to do it in tank water?



brysaa2 said:


> Could this amount of food be the reason do you think that the ammonia has began to build up, because it was literally only happening after we started using this, but the food dropped is so small each time I cant see that it is that....


I did wonder if something had died somewhere and you hadn't noticed. But in all honesty I think it was probably chronically building up. Those colour chart tests are often hard to read, specially if you water is tinted in colour anyways.



brysaa2 said:


> Other than that, I have a clean mechanical filter now with a nitra-zorb  pad put in today, and 12l of alfagrog in the other filter that I checked today and briefly cleaned in the tank water.


Again - cleaned in tank water? Even the mechanical filter will provide some biological filtration. 

The new alfagrog will take a while to become colonised and start removing ammonia, so that won't be an instant hit. 

Anyways... aside from separating the two species, I would recommend some 50% daily water changes for 5 days or so, keep on top of changing the nitra-zorb, and hope the filters colonise in time. Remove the terrapin faeces as quick as possible too? I don't know how possible that is.

Just so you know as well, it's currently quite inhumane on the fish being in such ammonia levels...


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

^^^^^^^^ Gee how ironic, and this comes from one our RFUK's fish pros, not just a couple of randoms who got ignored like Blurboy and myself. I believe the key word was "INHUMANE".


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

I've only just seen this thread today. A very messy thread that seemed to be going nowhere fast. 

What points jumped out? Ummmm?

Many people tend to 'report' that they keep this with that and 'report' no problems.....but surely if there is a perceived risk with something and then problems are observed then that risk should be removed as a first option.

I also understand that siamese fighting fish can be kept with snapping turtles....a snapping turtle whispered that to me (afterall snappers are the true experts when it comes to knowing what they want in their tanks).  
{soz for being a bit hit-outtish at 'experts' there}.

Ammonia testing..... first port of call for what are high ammonia readings are:
the test kit itself, Is it being used correctly? 
has any ammonia quelching agent been used (some give added positive ammonia readings)? 
Any test that shows any positive ammonia is a case for concern.

Ammonia testing....high ammonia reading.........second action.....
Do something about it FIRST, then ask what might have happened.

Ammonia testing......third point, that really should be addressed prior to keeping any fish.......stabilise the water and tank maintenance such high ammonia is never present.
Review your whole set-up, and change it if needed.

Forgetting the case of whether to keep terrapins with fish...just for one moment...... the choice of having malawi cichlids adds an additional problem to ammonia anyway because of the required alkalinity and basicity of the water:
although the nitrosofying bacteria and nitrifying bacteria tend to prefer a good alkalinity and a basic pH, the ammonia/ammonium equilibrium shifts towards the more toxic ammonia form.

ie higher pH means an equilirium towards free ammonia.

There has been no indication of whether or not the water is treated to remove chloramines or other ammonia producing compounds when doing water changes. 

I'm not sure if some basic aspects have been addressed eg:
ammonia is oxidised to nitrous acid generally by non-media bound nitrosofying bacteria; these genera of bacteria establish themselves quite much more rapidly than the nitrifying genera; if the redox, with special focus on alkalinity, is correct then the nitrous acid will be in the form of nitrites; if, however, the alkalinity does not allow redox buffering then that will not happen and you're likely to tend towards an acid crash which may kill off 'beneficial' bacteria. The nitrosofying action requires lots of oxygen.

Then we go to the filtration stage of media-bound nitrifying bacteria.
The genera of nitrifying bacteria oxidize nitrites to nitric acid. If the redox is such to give good alkalinity then the nitric acid will be in the form of nitrates. If there is limited carbonate (alkalinity) buffering then the products will tend towards being nitric acid and there will be a pH crash with the result of killing the beneficial bacteria.
Nitrifying bacteria tend to be very slow growing, and are sensitive to pH, temperature and a wholes host of other things. If they get killed off, then it can take a month or 2 to re-establish a good colony.

Turtle produce so much crap that you are going to get elevated ammonia from both their metabolic waste, their un-digested waste, and from un-eaten food. 
Fish tend to rely on passive diffusion of ammonia from their bodies (there are a few species of fish that can actively remove it though)...if ammonia levels in the water are too high, then the ammonia within the body will not passively diffuse out of the fish and the fish will die rapidly.

Has any test of pH or redox or alkalinity been done on the water?
I see little point in simply measuring one aspect of water chemistry......it is a complex system and one factor will never give an answer.

ian


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Thanks for advice dude, but did you not see I said I'd sorted it? lol. Yeah all the comments are just way out of context and talking about global warning etc. I appreciate that you actually answering my question, which is what I thought forums were for haha, not to get judged by people who have never met you before.

Either way mate, it's fine now, it was just the ammo lock. The chemical in it has some bad reaction with my test kit for some reason, haha.

Anyway cheers for all the constructive comments anyways :2thumb:


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

In amongst all the posts, I didn't see that all was sorted.

On the other hand, many fish keepers experience sudden high ammonia readings. 
Hence, positive replies to your original query would have a general usefulness to any other keeper.

Ammonia quelching agents (and some are worse than others) tend to give false positives. I could explain why, but that is getting too nerdy. 

ian


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Yeah Ian, which was what I thought when I asked you see :lol2:. That perhaps someone more experienced with ammonia increase may have an insight, but that's cool. Yeah totally would have helped others too with what to look at. Instead became full of rubbish haha, which I could see happening as to why I said it was closed, but you can't delete threads can you which is a bit annoying.

Haha please do go on about .ammonia quelching agents' if you so wish  sounds worth a read

Rob



igmillichip said:


> In amongst all the posts, I didn't see that all was sorted.
> 
> On the other hand, many fish keepers experience sudden high ammonia readings.
> Hence, positive replies to your original query would have a general usefulness to any other keeper.
> ...


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

brysaa2 said:


> Yeah Ian, which was what I thought when I asked you see :lol2:. That perhaps someone more experienced with ammonia increase may have an insight, but that's cool. Yeah totally would have helped others too with what to look at. Instead became full of rubbish haha, which I could see happening as to why I said it was closed, but you can't delete threads can you which is a bit annoying.
> 
> Haha please do go on about .ammonia quelching agents' if you so wish  sounds worth a read
> 
> Rob



The only "rubbish" in this thread is keeping M'Buna w/ aquatic chelonians.

I don't like you, and I don't need to meet you nor get to know you to be accurate in that statement.


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## AnythingWithAShell (Apr 14, 2009)

Just to add more to the fire, if all your 3 turtles are in this tank, and are all actually the sexes your sig says they are (which indicates a minimum size they must be to be sexed), then your tank is too small for them, let alone with fish too. Sorry :?

In fact, even if this tank only houses 2, I think it's probably still too small.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

If I'm right in thinking ammolock doesn't rid atank of ammonia, but simply makes it non-toxic to fish until it is broken down, so that's why the test results would have still shown a reading for ammonia.

My stance on fish with turts will always remain the same- fish naturally form a major part in a turts diet in the wild, and no matter how many people do it and have got away with it, there's no way of stopping the turts going for the fish. There would be war if people kept rodents in with snakes and I don't feel this is any different. What kind of an existence must those fish have, when they have to be alert at all times? Fish don't need to share a tank with turts and vice versa- both are capable of living in seperate tanks and should be kept in seperate tanks.

And as Dawn has already said, that tank won't last long at all... look at the link on her sig for what you'll soon need!


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

You are indeed right, however i was doing numerous water changes, so there couldn't possibly have been that much in there. It was instead, the fact I was using the ammo lock (or my girlfriend, rather - I always use nutrafin), and the fact that ammo lock was being used as a de chlorinator was making the tests false, and not due to high ammonia 

I see what you're saying, and it's all true. However people to succeed in keeping them together. Austin's turtles said labs would be too quick and are a viable tank mate, if you don't mind them getting eaten. I don't feed my animals mice or rats or anything that say a snake owner would. If the fish became food, I'd be sad, but it's not any different to giving them live food (which is actually recommended occasionally). After a year they have never gone for them once, or chased them, and vice versa. The cichlids are getting huge, and to be honest are more likely to bully the turtles than the other way around haha.

With regards to tank size, I had no plan to KEEP them in that. I have a pond waiting to move them in when they outgrow the tank, which is still a long time yet as they have loads of swimming room 

Only reason they share is due to the massive empty boring space that needs filling in the turtles tank. The turtles take up about 10% of the water, and there is no colour in there, and we added them in. They're happy, and never chased, and always eating, so that's fine.

Cheers



hippyhaplos said:


> If I'm right in thinking ammolock doesn't rid atank of ammonia, but simply makes it non-toxic to fish until it is broken down, so that's why the test results would have still shown a reading for ammonia.
> 
> My stance on fish with turts will always remain the same- fish naturally form a major part in a turts diet in the wild, and no matter how many people do it and have got away with it, there's no way of stopping the turts going for the fish. There would be war if people kept rodents in with snakes and I don't feel this is any different. What kind of an existence must those fish have, when they have to be alert at all times? Fish don't need to share a tank with turts and vice versa- both are capable of living in seperate tanks and should be kept in seperate tanks.
> 
> And as Dawn has already said, that tank won't last long at all... look at the link on her sig for what you'll soon need!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

brysaa2 said:


> You are indeed right, however i was doing numerous water changes, so there couldn't possibly have been that much in there. It was instead, the fact I was using the ammo lock (or my girlfriend, rather - I always use nutrafin), and the fact that ammo lock was being used as a de chlorinator was making the tests false, and not due to high ammonia
> 
> I see what you're saying, and it's all true. However people to succeed in keeping them together. Austin's turtles said labs would be too quick and are a viable tank mate, if you don't mind them getting eaten. I don't feed my animals mice or rats or anything that say a snake owner would. If the fish became food, I'd be sad, but it's not any different to giving them live food (which is actually recommended occasionally). After a year they have never gone for them once, or chased them, and vice versa. The cichlids are getting huge, and to be honest are more likely to bully the turtles than the other way around haha.
> 
> ...












_"You're wrong, and you're a grotesquely ugly freak!"_


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

AshMashMash said:


> image
> 
> _"You're wrong, and you're a grotesquely ugly freak!"_


Yea i know ....this guy just does NOT understand. I hope he's doing 50% water changes DAILY.


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## Paul Butler (Mar 7, 2010)

I normally stay off threads like this as Mr. Creed has a far better way with words than I do, I don't know much about turtles, except they do eat fish ....

As for ammonia, even if you are getting a false reading from whatever chemical is "neutralising" it, it is still there and will be converted into nitrite (NO2) which is just as toxic to fish as ammonia. Called the silent killer, causes brown blood disease (lack of haemoglobin). Inhumane on the fish and probably on the turtles too.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

brysaa2 said:


> Only reason they share is due to the massive empty boring space that needs filling in the turtles tank. The turtles take up about 10% of the water, and there is no colour in there, and we added them in. They're happy, and never chased, and always eating, so that's fine.
> 
> Cheers


A bit of imagination can transform a bare looking tank. Decent background, couple of rocks, bit of wood, substrate and some large artificial plants.

Not a great picture but my tank is here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/shelled-turtles-tortoise/627794-5-turtle-tank-rescape.html

previously it was bare aside from a basking dock and substrate.
It's being replaced with a pond though shortly.


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## AnythingWithAShell (Apr 14, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> With regards to tank size, I had no plan to KEEP them in that. I have a pond waiting to move them in when they outgrow the tank, which is still a long time yet as they have loads of swimming room
> 
> Only reason they share is due to the massive empty boring space that needs filling in the turtles tank. The turtles take up about 10% of the water, and there is no colour in there, and we added them in. They're happy, and never chased, and always eating, so that's fine.
> 
> Cheers


This is just not true. If they are the sexes your sig states they are they don't have plenty of swimming room. And if you find a turtle tank boring then you should not be keeping them. 10% of the water? You ever seen pics of the natural environment of a river cooter? You know females can grow to 14" right?

Does your tank provide a MINIMUM of 40 litres usable water per inch shell length of your biggest turt, and 20 litres per inch of each subsequent turt? Plus you have to take into account volume needed for the fish. 

Try getting them sexed and finding out what volumes they need in shelled.


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Paul Butler said:


> I normally stay off threads like this as Mr. Creed has a far better way with words than I do, I don't know much about turtles, except they do eat fish ....
> 
> As for ammonia, even if you are getting a false reading from whatever chemical is "neutralising" it, it is still there and will be converted into nitrite (NO2) which is just as toxic to fish as ammonia. Called the silent killer, causes brown blood disease (lack of haemoglobin). Inhumane on the fish and probably on the turtles too.


I'm ignoring the turtles with fish debate here. 
It's getting on to level that I would only address in person face to face...and not on an anonymous forum. 

Different 'ammonia quelching or locking agents' work in different ways.
There will be a potential of a false ammonia reading if using something like Ammo-Lock or AmQuel depending on which type of Ammonia test is used

If the test is based upon a Nessler reagent then Ammo-Lock will give "false highs"; a salicylate based reagent will not give a false high. 

Out of date ammonia test kits may tend to give a false high.

Now, really the common test kits tend to measure total ammonia (ie ionised and unionised). 
Hence, when any positive ammonia result (and that mean ANY positive result) is obtained then you need to determine the concentration of unionised ammonia. To get a reasonably accurate but still rough estimate, the pH and temperature should be taken. From that you can work out the unionised ammonia. 
Using: 
Total unionised ammonia = measured total ammonia * 1/(10(pKa-pH)+1)

where _pKa = 0.09 + 2730/(Temp in C +273) (approx).
_
It is that value that determines the concentration of the highly toxic unionised ammonia.

Ionic strength also affects the above, but it's effect in freshwater may be negligible.

As opposed to Paul Butlers quote, Nitrites are far far less toxic than ammonia. 
It is simply not true that nitrites are as toxic as ammonia.

However, nitrites _are _toxic but they *don't* really cause a *lack* of haemoglobin as such. They modify the haemoglobin to form methaemoglobin.
This type of modification is also seen in similar compounds to haemoglobin (eg respiratory cytochromes, myoglobin in muscle). The modifications are particularly noticeable in anoxia.

Nitrites also nitrosate other compounds, in fish a particularly important group are the dimethylamines (fishy smell). Some nitroso compounds are potential mutagens.

Irrespective of rights and wrongs of keeping turtles with fish, the scientific arguments against it should, at least, be close to the truth (else they leave an opening for conta-arguments)

Perpetuating nonesense about water quality does nothing to help fish (or turtle) keepers get a grasp of the science.

Having said that, it is impossible to convey the complete science in a forum thread.

ian


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## Paul Butler (Mar 7, 2010)

Ian, thanks for the science, I was trying to keep it simple. But one thing is for sure NO2 is still bad for fish and still kills. That was the point I was trying to get over, and perhaps not too well either.


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Paul Butler said:


> Ian, thanks for the science, I was trying to keep it simple. But one thing is for sure NO2 is still bad for fish and still kills. That was the point I was trying to get over, and perhaps not too well either.



Yep. It is a killer.....and its toxicity is high (albeit not as high as ammonia).

There are some serious concerns on its effect on human health, and that is not purely limited to the case of methaemoglobinaemia (esp in babies).

The other thing about it is that in unbuffered (especially one lacking alkalinity) water, nitrites are more likely exist as nitrous acid and thus help drive the pH down to an acid crash. That may have an effect on the filtration system set-up to rid the tank of nitrite.

Although we often cannot find a source of mass fish loss, most losses are perfectly explainable and most are probably easy to avoid.

ian


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

So does everyone understand why I get so frustrated w/ people sometimes? LOL

I can't go into this much detail, but GEEZ....all this info at peoples' fingertips and there's still thread after thread made about the same topics that have already been covered.

People PLEASE, and I say this with all due respect...PLEASE, use the "search Function" located in your user profile before duplicating threads for topics already covered.


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