# Poecilotheria bara



## atum (Jun 1, 2009)

<i>Poecilotheria subfusca</i><br>Ivory Ornamental (2 cm) Suppliers of Arachnids and other quality Invertebrates

AKA lowland subfusca

Worth £22? Im tempted.


----------



## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

One of the best pokies, for me anyway next to Miranda. £22 is not bad given I seem to remember only couple years back they were £45


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

well worth it, if i had enough money i'd get one


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Interesting that they've decided to call this P. bara, also interesting to see this: 
AKA *Lowland* P.subfusca
This is a *high altitude* living species from Sri Lanka.

Room temps is all that's required for these, it gets quite cold up on those mountains, with lots of mist and they sometimes get snow! All I got was a load of leeches and a guide telling everyone I was a martial arts film star!


----------



## gary spencer (Nov 16, 2009)

very tempting indeed might be getting one :crazy: :2thumb:


----------



## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I am after one of these, but I am in a bit of a dilemma...

I have been told that if I buy another spider before the BTS, I cannot have any spiders when we get there (tut!) and I dont want to leave Wolverhampton empty handed....

And there is no way I am going to the BTS show without a wad of cash burning a hole in my pocket!!!


----------



## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

SEXY spiders! Well worth £22


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> Interesting that they've decided to call this P. bara, also interesting to see this:
> AKA *Lowland* P.subfusca
> This is a *high altitude* living species from Sri Lanka.
> 
> Room temps is all that's required for these, it gets quite cold up on those mountains, with lots of mist and they sometimes get snow! All I got was a load of leeches and a guide telling everyone I was a martial arts film star!


apart from the P.subfusca in the kandy district at 600m are larger and look a little different on the carapace and abdomen than the ones found at 1600m-2000m and the one in the pic is of the 600m sort.


----------



## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Yeah gorgeous pokies I actualy prefer subfusca over metallica!:2thumb:


----------



## atum (Jun 1, 2009)

Argh my exhaust went today on my car. So now Im skint. I hope these don't sell too quickly.


----------



## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

Like what Rocky Gervais says in his stand up show... Is someone making money by naming and discovering so-called new species? Do they get a royalty? (he goes on to say that he has discovered the 'ever so slightly longer eared bat' and the 'chubby bat' (an overfed pipistrelle))

I noticed that even my chile rose has a different scientific name these days... why? because it's an ever so slightly different colour to a red form?. I'm a different colour to President Obama, he's taller than me, thinner than me and probably got a much higher intelligence. But I still like to think that we are the same species.

My Brachypelma Smithi has a slightly larger arse than normal Smithis (which has got nothing to do with the massive Morio Worm she put away this weekend), so I am gonna to reclassify her as Brachypelma Dave.:lol2::2thumb:


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

David L said:


> Like what Rocky Gervais says in his stand up show... Is someone making money by naming and discovering so-called new species? Do they get a royalty? (he goes on to say that he has discovered the 'ever so slightly longer eared bat' and the 'chubby bat' (an overfed pipistrelle))
> 
> I noticed that even my chile rose has a different scientific name these days... why? because it's an ever so slightly different colour to a red form?. I'm a different colour to President Obama, he's taller than me, thinner than me and probably got a much higher intelligence. But I still like to think that we are the same species.
> 
> My Brachypelma Smithi has a slightly larger arse than normal Smithis (which has got nothing to do with the massive Morio Worm she put away this weekend), so I am gonna to reclassify her as Brachypelma Dave.:lol2::2thumb:


Nar G. rosea has been miss'id in the trade for years as brown and red forms and not as two species that were named donkeys years ago, but it sounds like Gervais knows all to well how some (well quite a few sadly) taxonomists work :notworthy:


----------



## pirez (May 3, 2009)

Let me get this right, p. bara is actually P. subfusca 'lowland'?
Why not just call it that?:whistling2:


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

because no one has confirmed it yet.


----------



## pirez (May 3, 2009)

Well they sold out too fast for me to get my hands on! 
Damn it!:devil::devil::devil:


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

so buy some cheaper ones here
reptile classifieds, classified ads of reptiles, amphibians, spiders, insects and more ...
just search for subfusca


----------



## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

The 'Highland' and 'Lowland' subfusca's are the same thing, its just a way for more money to be made from them. They look a bit different yeah, but they come from the same egg sacks...


----------



## pirez (May 3, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> so buy some cheaper ones here
> reptile classifieds, classified ads of reptiles, amphibians, spiders, insects and more ...
> just search for subfusca


LOL now to start emailing folk in german!:lol2:

Cheers for that link btw mate!:2thumb:


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

DannyB said:


> The 'Highland' and 'Lowland' subfusca's are the same thing, its just a way for more money to be made from them. They look a bit different yeah, but they come from the same egg sacks...


there are many that would dissagree


----------



## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> there are many that would dissagree


Yeah, the ones who want to charge more for the lowland ones.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

DannyB said:


> Yeah, the ones who want to charge more for the lowland ones.


well no actually because the the price for the two seem more or less around the same looking at the adds on that other web site.
But here is a thing you might be able to explain why do the "high land" ones look quite different and are much larger than the "high land" ones?

Also if they can be found in the same eggsac as you state why doesn't anyone who breeds these ever state this? I only know of one report.

I'm not saying they are a different species but I am quite open minded about it, after all if hanumavilasumica can be called a species based on one single different leg marking then I think the two "forms" of subfusca could be in with a chance.


----------



## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm planning to breed P. subfusca shortly so fingers crossed for some cb slings on here in the near future !... just for the record I personally don't think there are two different species just one; however i'm very open minded and love to hear others views and opinions on this subject:2thumb:


----------



## RAZZ-MCFC (Jan 25, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> well no actually because the the price for the two seem more or less around the same looking at the adds on that other web site.
> But here is a thing you might be able to explain why do the "high land" ones look quite different and are much larger than the "high land" ones?
> 
> Also if they can be found in the same eggsac as you state why doesn't anyone who breeds these ever state this? I only know of one report.
> ...


i do agree

i'm pretty sure both are from the same sac but if you look at the 2 there is quite a lot of difference IMO


----------



## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Im not denying that they dont look slightly different, i even said that, it is only a slight difference though. But if they come from the same egg sack how can they possibly be a different species??

There are so many 'pet trade' names made up to make more money that its difficult not to think the worst untill its proven otherwise. I could well be wrong, im not claiming to be the gospel on this, im just offering a different view on it.


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Chamberlin in 1917 described P. bara and it remained so til 1996 when Peter Kirk redescribed it. The European breeders believe there are differences between bara and subfusca hence why I was originally puzzled that Lee has ackowledged the former ID.
Most people I've talked to suggest it's just a regional variation and NOT a different species.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

If it is a regional variation is it then considered ok to breed the two variations together?


----------



## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

In my personal opinion, I really don't believe that both "forms" come from the same sac at all. In fact, I've only ever heard one breeder state this. My personal opinion is that they are indeed different species. The physical differences between _fasciata/hanumavillasumica_ (as aforementioned by Bald Poodle) and _formosa/nallamalaiensis _seem much smaller than that between the two forms of _subfusca_.

I'm not sure how any taxonomical studies are proceeding though. As far as I'm aware "lowland" were introduced to the hobby by a fella named Peter Pastor. If I remember correctly, no locational details were released, and as such, I'm not sure if a type specimen was ever actually acquired.


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

If the 2 are bred together would it be more likely that you'd see slings that look like Lowland and Highland? The answer is a very likely yes and therefore you must ask have these people that report it bred 2 variations/species together? 
To my mind if there's any doubt we shouldn't be mixing them otherwise welldilute the species. And to pre-emp the question it's possible to mate different species of Poecilotheria


----------



## atum (Jun 1, 2009)

I think it's more than just a variation of one species. But even if it is only a variation of the one species, I wouldn't think about breeding the two variations together and would like to think most other keepers wouldn't either. Look at Avicularia. It's a right mess.

And don't get me started on all the 'designer' Leopard Geckos, Beardies, Royal Pythons etc. At first it wasn't too bad, but some of the stuff thats being bred nowadays is just unnatural. 

Playing God is not cool.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

So even if they turn out to just be variations of the same species they should not be bred? Have I got this right? This would mean then, that in effect you would be treating them like different species or? 
So if one was slightly more expensive than the other due to , lets say that variation being a little more rare than the other is why do some complain about it?
Also if they are found in the same sack what are we talking here? 50% lowland looking ones and 50% highland looking ones? Are there no intermediate looking ones? Seems a bit strange that there doesn't seem to be any that look like a mix of the two knocking around or are there?


----------



## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

whoops 

*edit*


----------



## pirez (May 3, 2009)

atum said:


> I think it's more than just a variation of one species. But even if it is only a variation of the one species, I wouldn't think about breeding the two variations together and would like to think most other keepers wouldn't either. Look at Avicularia. It's a right mess.
> 
> And don't get me started on all the 'designer' Leopard Geckos, Beardies, Royal Pythons etc. At first it wasn't too bad, but some of the stuff thats being bred nowadays is just unnatural.
> 
> Playing God is not cool.


AGREED!

Does anyone else think this variation might be due to hybridisation of pokies in captivity, i mean how many other sp. of pokies have different 'forms' coming from the same sac? 
Just a thought.


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

If they turn out to be mere variations of colour then there's no logical reason not to breed them, although some might breed brighter colours in the hope of getting brighter coloured offspring. However, considering we don't know whether its a different species or a colour variation it makes sense to err on the side of caution and not breed the 2 forms. 
For myself the price is immaterial, whether I bred lowland or highland the price would be the same, and recently someone bred lowland and gave away the slings!
The same sac issue has been mentioned above, it was 1 persons observation so unless others can substantiate it its rather flawed. However check around for pix and you will always see variety in colour of various pokies and other genus, colour though does not have taxonomical merit.

@pire, before we answer your question, how many instances of "both forms from one egg sac" do you know of?


----------



## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

This classifications thing really puzzles me...

People from Ghana and Ivory Coast are on average much taller and bigger than us Brits, and even more so than pygmy tribes in central africa. They are also a massively different colour to europeans, and facial features are slightly different... yet are we not the same species?

This whole classifications thing just seems like a massive egocentic endeavour to me... "I want my name on an animal, so I am gonna look for the tiniest difference in whatever and name this thing after me"..

And as for the comment around morphs and colour variants... look what we have done to dogs, we have messed around with the genetics of so many poor canine breeds that some of them barely deserve the right to be called a dog anymore. Very Sad


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

If my mind as not been drifting to much there maybe at least two sources that make the claim that the two "forms" can be found in the same eggsac but that is tempered by those that claim they have had little luck getting sac's from the two forms. 

But nontheless there are been many such mistakes made in the past who recalls a well known name stating he had seen both NCF and RCF G. rosea from the same sac when we now know they are two species with differing ranges maybe in that case it was hybrid sac also who can say?, but by the same logic as highland/lowland P. sub I'v read some thought Brachypelma auratum only to be a "highland" form of B. smithi when it first entered the hobby, and there were a few that thought there was a third species of Theraphosa being imported along side T. blondi for many years before what is now being common knowledge seems to being accepted.

I think it's often the case that a few experts/well known names put their side of the story out on forums and most people have a tendency to follow and im not ashamed to admit to having done that myself a few times, it's not always easy to get to the raw info others are basing their opinions on plus the time one may have to put in.


----------



## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

Oderus said:


> But nontheless there are been many such mistakes made in the past who recalls a well known name stating he had seen both NCF and RCF G. rosea from the same sac when we now know they are two species with differing ranges


I remember this :2thumb:

I think you are very right with regard to your comment about "experts" and such. It seems to me that hobbyists are becoming less and less inclined to make their own mind up, rather taking the word of aparrently more experienced folk purely at face value.


----------



## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Danhalen said:


> I remember this :2thumb:
> 
> I think you are very right with regard to your comment about "experts" and such. It seems to me that hobbyists are becoming less and less inclined to make their own mind up, rather taking the word of aparrently more experienced folk purely at face value.


 
Well said Dan.


----------



## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

Danhalen said:


> I remember this :2thumb:
> 
> I think you are very right with regard to your comment about "experts" and such. It seems to me that hobbyists are becoming less and less inclined to make their own mind up, rather taking the word of aparrently more experienced folk purely at face value.





Oderus said:


> If my mind as not been drifting to much there maybe at least two sources that make the claim that the two "forms" can be found in the same eggsac but that is tempered by those that claim they have had little luck getting sac's from the two forms.
> 
> But nontheless there are been many such mistakes made in the past who recalls a well known name stating he had seen both NCF and RCF G. rosea from the same sac when we now know they are two species with differing ranges maybe in that case it was hybrid sac also who can say?, but by the same logic as highland/lowland P. sub I'v read some thought Brachypelma auratum only to be a "highland" form of B. smithi when it first entered the hobby, and there were a few that thought there was a third species of Theraphosa being imported along side T. blondi for many years before what is now being common knowledge seems to being accepted.
> 
> I think it's often the case that a few experts/well known names put their side of the story out on forums and most people have a tendency to follow and im not ashamed to admit to having done that myself a few times, it's not always easy to get to the raw info others are basing their opinions on plus the time one may have to put in.



Yup i think i may have done this now:blush:

Its only on forums, i think, where i heard that both forms where found in the same sack by a few people, and that person could easily have been lying or wrong, and there seems to be a couple of people here who are saying that its not proven yet.


----------



## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

In reality experts are far and few between if anything we are all entusiasts and amateurs who have a passion for tarantulas or arachinds. Even well known breeders who have been around for decades are still learning and trying to id this species or find the location of that species.

Great thing is debates on this and that could go on all night in some cases literally about certain topics with regarding tarantulas. I just found it interesting that a simple thread about how nice the species was and contemplating buying one spurred off a talk on taxonomy.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Does anyone else think this variation might be due to hybridisation of pokies in captivity


No because both variations can be found in the wild in seperate locations at different altitude.



> If they turn out to be mere variations of colour then there's no logical reason not to breed them


So if I was to breed RCF P. murinus with NCF P. murinus this would be find also? 


> However check around for pix and you will always see variety in colour of various pokies and other genus, colour though does not have taxonomical merit.


yes I agree but I could also take 100 photos of the same spider and in each photo the colour could look different as much of it depends on the lighting. However it is not just the colour that is different between these two is it. For a start there is the size difference, then carapace shape looks different and the pattern on the carapace looks different so would any of this be of taxonomical merit?



> I think it's often the case that a few experts/well known names put their side of the story out on forums and most people have a tendency to follow and im not ashamed to admit to having done that myself a few times, it's not always easy to get to the raw info others are basing their opinions on plus the time one may have to put in.


that sounds about right.


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

> So if I was to breed RCF P. murinus with NCF P. murinus this would be find also?


I didn't say it was fine I just said there would be no logical reason not to do so if they were found to be mere colour forms rather than different species. P. murinus is exactly the same, mere regional variations within over 13 African countries, and I know of someone who bred them years ago and found both colours within the slings.

Colour forms, size and shape again are of no taxonomical merit. These usually occur as an evolution of the immediate habitat, whether that be the orange of P. murinus (which reflects the orange earth it inhabits) or the smaller size as a result of fewer and smaller food items. Experiments were conducted of putting lizards in different habitats and it was noted that over a small amount of generations the size of the lizards adapted to the environment so that one became smaller than the other.

How many times have we seen people referred to as experts in this forum, laughable really but, as I saw it described, "he's an expert in our eyes" LOL.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I know of someone who bred them years ago and found both colours within the slings.


bred two different colour forms together or found the two different colour forms in the same sac from a normal mating?



> Colour forms, size and shape again are of no taxonomical merit.


never asked about colour, I asked about pattern. so the size and shape of the carapace has no taxonomical merit either?


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm no expert (pun intended), but from my discussions and resources no it has no taxonomical merit. Hence the mess we have with Avics as described by X (soz can't remember his name) where he found Avic avic along a stretch of river that changed their appearance gradually, but which was rather obvious when the comparisons were made with those found at the start and those at the end of the stretch of river.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

strange. I had always thought that pattern was one of the main differences in genus Poecilotheria. I'm not sure what the taxomical keys for Aviculuaria has to do with Poecilotheria as I thought each genus had different keys thrus making them different so what may be of one, may not be a key for others. 
cheers for the enlightenment


----------



## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> strange. I had always thought that pattern was one of the main differences in genus Poecilotheria. I'm not sure what the taxomical keys for Aviculuaria has to do with Poecilotheria as I thought each genus had different keys thrus making them different so what may be of one, may not be a key for others.
> cheers for the enlightenment


For the pattern comment , I'll point you towards something most people on here would be aware of , that is royal pythons . If patterning was a species defining marker there'd be probably dozens of different royal species . 

Yes I know they're vert's not inverts but AFAIK it doesn't make any difference .


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> For the pattern comment , I'll point you towards something most people on here would be aware of , that is royal pythons . If patterning was a species defining marker there'd be probably dozens of different royal species .
> 
> Yes I know they're vert's not inverts but AFAIK it doesn't make any difference .


See what you´ve done there is confused taxomical keys for one species of animal and tried to apply it to a different animal all together.
BTW The pattern of Poecilotheria is a BIG taxomical identification key. It is NOT any use in most other spiders but with Poecilotheria it is a biggy.


----------



## atum (Jun 1, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> See what you´ve done there is confused taxomical keys for one species of animal and tried to apply it to a different animal all together.
> BTW The pattern of Poecilotheria is a BIG taxomical identification key. It is NOT any use in most other spiders but with Poecilotheria it is a biggy.


I always thought pattern was a key part of taxonomy in Poecilotheria as well. Just read Dan's beginner guide to Poecilotheria, or whatever it's called. It shows you all the different carapace, leg and underside patterns for the different species.

But Im still undecided on the whole highland lowland thing. Im erring onto the side of separate species... I think. Im glad Im just a 20 year old 'kid' that likes spiders. Starts to really hurt your head after a while. :whistling2:


----------



## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> See what you´ve done there is confused taxomical keys for one species of animal and tried to apply it to a different animal all together.
> BTW The pattern of Poecilotheria is a BIG taxomical identification key. It is NOT any use in most other spiders but with Poecilotheria it is a biggy.



Differing patterns may help differentiate different species but the point I was trying to make was I don't believe patterning defines a species .


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

But it does in Poecilotheria.


----------



## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> But it does in Poecilotheria.


Why ?


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

because in the case of the poecilotheria genus the pattern has proved to be a stable taxomical identification key. Don't expect anyone can tell you why it has but it has. If you don't agree with it then write something showing why it is not a good key.


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

LOL take away leg patterns and how many poke species do you have, not as many as with them im sure :no1:

Anything can be used as taxonomic key between related taxa (species/subspecies whatever) even colour if it's a stable difference shared by one population but not found in related one's.

For example you have two related spiders who's ranges overlap but do not appear to be interbreeding, so tests under captive conditions are run and many matings are achieved leading to zero hybrids, and yet the only non genetic difference is one is brown with pale cream leg markings the other black with yellow leg markings, one could fade to look like the other but seeing has the two are isolated reproductively would you disregard them as vaild species in their own right?.


----------



## pirez (May 3, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> If they turn out to be mere variations of colour then there's no logical reason not to breed them, although some might breed brighter colours in the hope of getting brighter coloured offspring. However, considering we don't know whether its a different species or a colour variation it makes sense to err on the side of caution and not breed the 2 forms.
> For myself the price is immaterial, whether I bred lowland or highland the price would be the same, and recently someone bred lowland and gave away the slings!
> The same sac issue has been mentioned above, it was 1 persons observation so unless others can substantiate it its rather flawed. However check around for pix and you will always see variety in colour of various pokies and other genus, colour though does not have taxonomical merit.
> 
> @pire, before we answer your question, how many instances of "both forms from one egg sac" do you know of?


I personally havent seen this, I seen it written in a post earlier!


----------

