# D. Leucomelas help, laying upside Down?



## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

As the title suggests I picked two of these little guys up 2 days ago and I noticed yesterday the smaller out of the two laying on his back in the coco fibre, still breathing but rather motionless... After putting him the right way up his legs were in complete control, not fast breathing or any unusual behaviour he just hopped away as if nothing had happened. Just now the same again, although this time in his water bowl. Does anyone with a lot of experience have any idea why he would be doing this? The store said they'd had them for a few months so they were well settled and were the mid sized out of a large group. The set up has live bromeliads and Dracenas, uv temps 21-25c with a high humidity and a heat source at night time. I've taken the shallow bowl out for now as I'm worried he'll do it when I'm not around (although its been sprayed nicely for the night) please can someone help or suggest anything? Thanks, I'm really worried there's something really wrong


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I`ve never seen anything like that with any of my Leucs Lilly.
It sounds like it`s having fits.
I`ve seen that once before with a Pum which in fact didn`t last very long.
I would be tempted to go back to the shop and ask for a replacement as I don`t believe this is something that has just started after you picked it up.
They are not cheap to buy from a shop and you don`t want this happening just as you`ve picked up your first darts.
I`d be tempted to leave the water dish but just lower the level to lessen the chances of it drowning.
And slightly off topic, I question why you find a need for night time heating as it`s normal for them to drop as low as 16 - 18C at nights.
Daytime temps are fine and it sounds like the viv is humid enough.

Mike


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

pics and more details I think are needed, like size of encloseue and fixtures and fittings.

dont sound good to me ?? 

I am new to darts myself and I find them to be the more clumsy then the other 5 types I have


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm unable to add a photo at the moment as I'm on a phone and have no access to a pc till after work. I use a ceramic heater on a ministat just to make sure it doesn't go lower than 20. I'd be concerned leaving it without any heat source as my house is known to go below 16 as I have two types of temp readers in there. 
The tanks an exo terra cube I think it's 28cm? The tanks been set up for months waiting for these guys.. I've got a 3ft tank ready for when they are adult as I was gonna get a small group as I've researched they are one of the more sotiable darts in regards to territory. The problem I've got is no where round by me does the leucs so other than courier it was a 3 hour drive to get them. For the transport they were kept warm, in a small moist tub in a larger polystyrene box with a lot of air holes kept very still... I've popped them straight onto coco fibre rather than damp kitchen roll as from past experience I find if the amph have been in a natural enclosure and removed to basics it stresses them worse, so I'm very good and spotting stool issues in substrate anyhow. Water bowl was very shallow with declorinated tap water and changed daily. They were eating hatchling crickets so Iv offered what they are used to but also have a springtail and fruitfly colony available. I just hope as you suggest it's not fits or something life threatening, possible just stress from the long journey and of they are more clumsy possibly a result of that. The other seems ok, he's hiding more than anything they've got a small coconut hideaway and also sphagnum miss around the tank. Not sure what else to do... Thanks for the reply guys


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

First thing I would do is turn off the ceramic heater. These are a definite no no with darts as they dry out the viv very quickly. This is especially true in a very small enclosure. Room temps are usually ok but if you are concerned use a heat mat on the side, they do like a drop in temp at night. If the frogs are so small I would only feed them the fruit flies and springtails. Do you know how old the frogs are? How small are they?
I would also turn the light off as well especially if he is hiding a lot it will reduce the amount of stress. Other than the cocco hut is there anywhere else for the frogs to hide. Also how are you keeping the humidity in the viv?

Adam


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

goodness how worrying!

I have seen a couple of reports of this type of behavior. It seems in these cases that the animal was effected neurologically by chemicals in the air. Whether this was airbourne pesticides or even a simple spray home air freshner the jury is still out.

The reports are only verbal so far, but it is worth moving any of those automated air fresheners if you have any close by.

Fitting is also an early warning sign of D3 toxiciy from over supllimentation but also is a sign of advanced MBD. The symptoms are so similar in both conditions.

you may need vet advice?

keep an eye on him though.

john


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

What are you dusting the crickets with?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I have had this behaviour in other types of frogs due to overheating.Check on this and certainly turn your ceramic heater off as others have said.


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

I tested a side head Matt before having them and it didn't really push the temp past 16c At night, the ceramic is raised above the tank with the sphagnum moss, water bowl and spraying the humidity isn't really an issue. I also use a custom made dripper for the plants just once a day when the frogs aren't about. I only had them two days so the crickets weren't dusted straight away I usually use nutrobal and calcium alternated with my other amphs. I do have a very good local exotic vet I'm just worried another transport would be too much for him? There's no way he'd come to a home visit, as I said earlier there's not a lot of amphibians where I live so he tends to travel quite a distance. The plants in the tank ate quite large as they've been in there for a while so there's plants of hiding space for them. As for the area, there are only animals in there, there's about 5 species of frogs, a snake and a gecko so as you can imagine its a no go zone, no sprays, freshners or fragrances of any kind. It's so very worrying poor guy, I'm just worried its happening when I'm not there.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Have you covered the mesh on the lid with anything?


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

The temp hasn't exceeded 19 with the ceramic on, I know they are sensitive to being too warm than cold but at the store he said they'd been kept in the region of 21-24c for the last 4 months. Maybe best to try and get it down gently if you guys think its too hot?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

That wouldn`t be too hot,so I would start looking at the other reasons that others have said.


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Nope? But the humidity has never been under 80 and there plenty of ventilation for the brom. Would you suggest to cover a section?


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I agree that the first thought would be temperature, but if the temps are under control (baring in mind that there could be a significant gradient in the viv) the general consensus in these situations seems to be that such issues usually stem from inadequate supplementation during the frog's development. See, for example:

Inferalanis seizure/spasms - Dendroboard

Can a frog play dead? & Bicolor question - Dendroboard

There are recognised 'syndromes' that result in this type of behaviour but I can't off the top of my head remember where I've seen the info - sorry. Some possible causes, such as Vitamin A deficiency which can cause a range of health problems including uncontrolled/erratic movement, are recoverable; although without a diagnosis supplementing vitamin A is a bit risky. Others are irreversible. I think the best bet is probably to ensure that the frogs are getting the correct supplement regime and hope for the best.

Nick


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Yes, I would cover half the top with some plastic. A piece of laminated sheet will be fine. I would then try the heat mat again as you will retain more heat with half the top covered. My darts run at 20-21 degrees in the day and drop to 17-18 at night. No extra heat other than the lights. Can you turn the central heating up? What are you using to measure the heat and humidity.

Also have you tried Rainforest Vivariums as I believe they are based in South Wales. This is where I would by future frogs from if I were you, Richie knows his stuff. It is always advisable to buy frogs from private breeders or experts such as Richie or Marc at www.dartfrog.co.uk


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Can you recommend any particular brand or supplement to order online?


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Repashy Calcium plus Fertilisers & Feeds Price List


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks for the link I really appreciate it, the central heating in theory could be turned up I'm just concerned about the other animals at home... Il try the heat Matt through the night. Including the mini stat I have three different temperature readers, one that does both humidity and temp in Celsius (not sure of the brand) but I have about 10 and never had a problem with them. I then have a digital that reads the min and max and then a hygrometer of the same brand.


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

remove the lid place clingfilm and cover 3 quarters then replace the lid, get rid off the ceramic its doing more harm then good ! get the heat mat taped to the side! turn turn tank light off and crate loads of hiding spots !!! drop out the crickets and get some flys.
it sounds to me as though youve been mis I formed quite badly as with most LFS, I suggest a good book or a reutable website havd a read on the care sheets on joshs frogs its written in simple terms but very good info.
but in all I think your frog has a problem and I would be looking to take it back !


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Lillyx said:


> Thanks for the link I really appreciate it, the central heating in theory could be turned up I'm just concerned about the other animals at home... Il try the heat Matt through the night. Including the mini stat I have three different temperature readers, one that does both humidity and temp in Celsius (not sure of the brand) but I have about 10 and never had a problem with them. I then have a digital that reads the min and max and then a hygrometer of the same brand.


I run my central heating at 20 degrees and the vivs run at about 2 degrees higher. With the heat Mat don't worry if the ambient temps don't increase much as the frogs will move towards the mat if they need to. 

I would also contact the shop and look at returning the frog.


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

A few pics speak a thousand words.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

terryTHEfrog said:


> A few pics speak a thousand words.


I agree, the guys on here will be better able to advise if we can have some pictures of the frogs and setup.

Adam


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm going to keep my reply simple and to the point.

If you aren't already using Repashy Calcium Plus to dust every feed, start now.

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

terryTHEfrog said:


> A few pics speak a thousand words.


WTF is a photo going to tell you ?


Mike


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> WTF is a photo going to tell you ?
> 
> 
> Mike


so you can see what the conditions the so called frogs are In as it sounds asthough the person asking has been very ill advised on what conditions the frogs are supposed to live??


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

terryTHEfrog said:


> so you can see what the conditions the so called frogs are In as it sounds asthough the person asking has been very ill advised on what conditions the frogs are supposed to live??


Ok, I was trying to avoid confrontation, but where in this thread has the OP given any hint of this been the case? He/she hasn't, the first suggestion of this was in your posts.

The fact is, a frog that keeps been found on it's back stands a very high chance it is having fits. Fits are most of the time caused by too low levels of Vit A in it's diet. This is why I suggested that Lillyx start using Repashy Calcium Plus at every feed, if they aren't already.

I would actually go further, and suggest dusting once a fortnight with Repashy Supervit A too.

As to the odds of a dart falling in a viv, and ending up on it's back, I have to say I have never ever ever seen this happen. Even if they fall they manage to land right usually, or right themselves very very quickly.

Need to be careful we don't find ourselves demanding evidence every time somebody asks for help. End of the day, our advice should only ever be taken as this, advice.

Ade

PS. Try watching your frogs when you feed them, have a look to see if they seem to be having trouble getting flies to stick to their tongues, another sign of not enough vit A is a tongue not sticky enough.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

terryTHEfrog said:


> so you can see what the conditions the so called frogs are In as it sounds asthough the person asking has been very ill advised on what conditions the frogs are supposed to live??


So called frogs ?
They`re Leucs.
And we know it`s having fits.
We`ve already discussed vets and how they`re a waste of time so no point heading her in that direction.
I said in my first post "return the frog to where she got it"
I said to bin the overnight heating.
We want to know if possible why it`s having fits.
Adam, Colin and John have come up with a couple of good points worth thinking about.
Have you ?
All i`ve seen you say is what others have and then you spout about reading care sheets.
There are people on here believe it or not that actually know what they`re talking about.
So lets start again.
What are the photo`s going to tell you apart from you`ll see a frog lying on it`s back waving to the moon ?


Mike


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Hi Ade,

I think the concern was over the ceramic heater the OP is using as well as the viv size. I believe that these are the first dart frogs they have kept and as you know stress of a wrong environment could clearly add to the frogs problem and affect recovery. Should the frog recover we just wanted to steer them in the right direction for future husbandry. 

Sorry if it came across critical it just sounded like poor advice had been given.

Adam


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

More likely she just hadn't heard that they like a cooler night temp (or the shop decided to make some extra money out of her). To be honest though, 22 degrees C day and night shouldn't actually cause a frog harm.

Anyway, a slight amendment to my advice. It's Repashy Vitamin A Plus to use once every 2 weeks, NOT Supervit A as I typed. Repashy-Vitamin A Plus Don't use it more than that though, as overdosing can be as bad as not giving enough. Heck I only use it once a month, and use Repashy Calcium Plus the rest of the time.

Ade


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Firstly, I don't want to cause any confrontation on this forum. I have kept frogs for years with no use of sites like this for the one reason that people are ignorant to others opinions, knowledge and experience. Which is a shame as a lot of you have great ideas and are willing to help, we are all here for the benefit of these amphibians not to slag who knows the least. Ive done a lot of research, everywhere gives you different opinions and I have taken my experience, care from the Internet/books/colleagues at stores to get a set up going. I appreciate everyone who isn't jumping the gun and saying i've done everything so called wrong.. Lets get these photos up then! 

So, Here they both are-

















Heres the tank, qualities a bit crap sorry. 

























And when I said ceramic on a mini stat, It was more like this not directly on top just wanted to keep the ambient higher than 16c.









Cheers all.
Cari

*Edit. Theres a probe top left which is the temp up on top, the heat matt is now on as advised which is the 24c on the right. 
The last picture is of a different set up also, was just an example.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Hi Cari

I take it they're kept in a room that gets quite cold? I ask as I don't use any heating on my darts. That said, Mike was sweating big time when he visited recently and had a look... lol

Ok, first off I don't believe for one second that what you are seeing is caused by environmental factors. I do however believe that it is caused by dietry ones, and no you can't be blamed for these. The reason been that there are lots of vitamin dusting powders on the market, all claiming to be good blah blah blah, all with folks who swear by them. Of them all though, one really stands out, and that is Repashy Calcium Plus. Like I said, if you aren't dusting every feed with this, time to start. It WILL be a huge help to you and your frogs. 99% of dart keepers who have tried it will agree it's the best, often reporting a reduction in SLS in tadpoles etc etc. It seriously is the best. Fitting and tongues that aren't sticky enough are both very clear signs usually that a frog isn't getting enough Vit A, and vit A is overlooked in a lot of brands of dusing powders.

Unrelated, but hints/questions.

First up, have you put anything over the mesh on that viv to keep in humidity? I ask, as the substrate looks (the emphasis here is on LOOKS. lol) rather dry.

Second question, how many times a day and for how long are you misting the viv?

Finally, re temps. Night temps aim for now lower than 18 degrees Celsius (I tend to keep mine at about 20 degrees at night to be honest though, as this is the temp of the room they are kept in). Day temps usually I aim for about 4 degrees higher than my night temp, so about 24 degrees C most of the time, but this goes up in summer when sometimes I turn the lights off to stop temps getting too high (I don't like them going above 30 degrees for more than a few hours). As you may have noticed, I don't use ANY heat mats etc, I rely on my lighting to increase temps in the day.

My final tip, consider heating the room itself to raise the ambinet temps, rather than the area of the viv itself. Heating the viv directly has a knock on effect on the humidity inside the viv, where heating the room has less of an impact.

One final question, what size is that viv?

Ade


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Hello Ade,
Both hygrometers show above 90% humidity, i don't want to soak substrate when its already high as I don't want to cause respiratory issues as well as bacteria. Its not too dry though, soaked moss covers half the back of the tank anyways (prob whats keeping the humidity so high).
The tank is a foot cubed, I already have a tank in prep for what I wanted was a small group. This is something Im not rushing as it must be perfect, For now the tank in place is great as they are small anyway. 
All the info about the calcium is great, I think they were using nutrobal at the store so il get right on the repashy dust. 
Much appreciated feedback, thank you. 
Cari


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

like to know where I went wrong and warrent a personal attack ? I thought we were all here to help each other and pass on any info we have as a collective ...
I am not saying that the person who startred the thread is a messer but I noticed the other day somebody as new comer to the forum was slated as being a messer or "troll" as it seems to be put in these forum terms....
just if it was me that was experienceing this sort of problem I would give as much Info and pictures as possible to give them a better understading to help.
the person did not seem to know to much about dart frogs from the first post I gathered this by them not knowing about night time temps, I feel that would be basic knowledge by someone ventureing into these frogs and all of which is covered in "care sheets" and a quick read through this may put the person on the right track to having a happy frog rather then a load more questions bounceing back and forth.

but happy new year......


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Terry my little rant wasn`t meant as a personal attack.
But start from the beginning and read through everything posted and tell me that you can make sense of what was posted.
We had a shout for help and the next we know it`s all about this that and the next thing, then it`s about vets which I think we`ve proved/agreed is a complete waste of money and importantly, the frogs time.
We had buy your frogs from this guy or from that guy he`s an expert he isn`t etc etc.
Whats that all about ?
Can you now see what i`m saying ?
The poor woman must have been in turmoil trying to make sense of it all.
Thats not helping.
All she wanted was to know if anyone knew what was wrong with her froglet and if so how could it be cured.
Hopefully the poor thing will now get back on track and lead a normal, though I suspect, a spoiled life :lol2:.
Anyway i`m jumping out before it really does get out of hand.
Lets sweep it under the carpet and move on.

Mike


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

Fully agree that time is off the essence, esp with these tiny creatures as when you can see something is wrong it's usually to late.
None off the points you just raised were raised by me ? But yet you pulled up on pics and care sheets that i raised, both of which I feel would have benefitted the this lady, I far from call myself an expert even let alone halfway there !
It seems there may be light at the end off the tunnel for this fella so let's hope he can get on the mend which is the main concern for all.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Hi Cari

Thought it might be, but so long as you fully intend to upgrade them to bigger, there isn't an issue there.

I will say one thing though, be VERY careful using hygrometers. I used to use them, 1 would tell me 95% whilst another in the exact same spot would tell me 40%, they aren't to be trusted in high humidity environments at all.

Regarding Nutrabol, I used to rotate with that as one of the supplements I used. Now though, like many others, I have switched to Repashy products only. I am sure it's fine for reptiles etc, but I just feel happier using only Repashy. I know this makes me sound like a fan boy, but Allen Repashy has taken the time to properly formulate and test his products, as well as listening (and responding) to the feedback of hobbyists, something that few companies bother to do. Quality will always tell, and Repashy is one of those brands that you wont find many people slating. Oh and no, I don't work for them or sell it. lol Mike is at least one frogger I know of among many who has switched to it, and has no regrets at all.

I am 95% positive that what you have described with your frog is the aftermath of a fit, and usually these can be linked to a lack of vit A, easily sorted with good old Calcium Plus. I know that Stu also uses the Vitamin A Plus every now and then same as I do now too, and if the little frog does have a vita A shortage a once a fortnight dose of this will certainly help faster, which is quite important. Don't dose more than the packet says though, as Vit A overdose can kill a frog, same as overdosing any other vitamin though to be honest. Us humans are the same. 

Ade


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Oh god yeah definitely wouldn't keep them in that! They are so small at the moment though they'de get lost in anything bigger! I'm sure il be back and fore asking advise about the new tank as I go along anyways  the tank is 3ft x 18 x 18cm, I don't want to exceed the amount for the tank in all honesty and no mixing, what would you say is a nice number? Today I've had no problem with the little guys, the repashy is ordered so in the mean time I'm still dusting with various brands which they are eating fine, a lot bolder today. Fingers crossed! Cheers guys! And yes mike, very spoilt!  
Cari


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## lungz (Dec 30, 2009)

Terry, 
My personal opinion is the 'pictures speak a thousand words' post reads a bit troublesome. It got me a bit frustrated to be honest. Your first post was fine and another post explaining the purpose of the pics (sorry I forget who it's from) said the same thing in a more diplomatic way. I don't think you were attacked personally, just the tone of the post that comes across to the reader, especially in a forum that has its fair share of known, respected experts. 

Either way, I've learnt a lot from this thread where supplements and warning signs are concerned.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes Cari I gather with how you spoke to me about them that they are going to be very well looked after.
Don`t mother them too much though lmao.
A viv of the size your building will comfortably take 5 Leucs, maybe 6.
Build in higher levels too as they will climb all over the viv.
Ade is correct about hygrometers.
I don`t own one anymore.
Just gauge your tank from the dampness of the soil etc and you`ll soon know whats right or wrong.
One important point.
Whatever broms you get make sure they have a drying period after spraying them otherwise you risk them rotting and dying.
As a rule of thumb give the tank 3 light to heavy sprays a day or 2 heavy sprays and above all make sure the frogs have a deep waterdish to have a soak in, 30mm will be fine.
Leucs just love water which is strange for a frog that doesn`t swim as such.
But the added advantage of the waterdish is that in the event the frog feels too dry it can and will dive in for a soak to regulate its body moisture.
Mine have a pool built in which they often go for a splash about in http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/783750-just-stu.html


Mike


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Hi Cari, I agree with the others about hygrometers mine used to read 60% yet the viv was sodden so I also no longer bother. It's easier to use your own instinct.

You won't go wrong with the Repashy. Marc at Dartfrog said when he started using it not only did the frogs seem healthier but their colours also seemed brighter as well.

Fingers crossed for the frog.

Adam


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

fatlad69 said:


> Hi Cari, I agree with the others about hygrometers mine used to read 60% yet the viv was sodden so I also no longer bother. It's easier to use your own instinct.
> 
> *You won't go wrong with the Repashy*. Marc at Dartfrog said when he started using it not only did the frogs seem healthier but their colours also seemed brighter as well.
> 
> ...


I can`t say one way or the other about colours as my frogs are just way out there colour wise anyway.
And i`m not just saying that, i`ve posted plenty of pics.
But I hold my hand up as someone who bought Repashy over a year ago and publicy said that I felt it was a waste of money due to the amount of solid particles which are thrown out after dusting, ie a lot of it was wasted.
When my Azureus started breeding back in the summer I kept losing froglets due to sls, in fact I lost nearly 30 I think, over a period of time.
All the usual suspects were looked at like UV etc but I personally feel that UV serves no purpose.
Vitamins came into the equasion and as I had the Repashy sat here already I stopped with my other powder and switched over completely.
Well, what can I say?
The sls stopped immediately and i`ve not had any since.
I was in to Dartfrog last weekend and just bought a large pot of it to keep me going for another while.
I`m definately converted.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Hi Cari,first up welcome:
the advice about supplements for darts,I concur,I love Allen repashy's products because of 3 reasons one because he has got feed back from some really knowledgeable dart keepers,worked with them and amended products to suit 2 because I know so many folks that swear by this stuff and 3,yup i use it and see the results. 
Cari we use Ca plus as the staple and every 2 weeks they get a dose of the vit A supp,Ade quoted,I mearley state this as I know that this will not OD even the tiniest of darts,just from all the kids we rear,at least with dendrobates and excidobates anyway. Just to qualify that. As already stated vit A overdosing i very much believe to be possible,so telling you what our regime is for teeny tiny leucs,without issue is worth reiterating .

Cari as far as the fitting,i'm not sure that this is the correct diagnosis,how could i be I'm no vet!! But i have seen a frog flip on its back and play dead,it is a defence mechanism I believe. It is well documented,i have seen it myself when we first brought our mysties home and popped them in a qt tub. As a layman!!!!! a frog with all its limbs pulled in might be playing dead to outwit a predator a frog that has a fit might have its hind legs totally prostrate/ outstretched. The former is a tiny frog pulling one over on you,left alone it will go back to being a happy healthy froggie nowt is wrong,the latter requires a damn good vet whom knows phibs real well.

A quiet word about vets,it needs saying :2thumb:
These guy are hard to find,but they are out there,they will be the folks that teach us,what we haven't the abiltiy to learn for ourselves. They are the very few that will guide us to a better place . But we have to use them and let them learn with us. 
My experience of animals is very simple there are 2 types,one type go "oh crap i'm ill i'm dead" the other type show symptoms for a while,inordinately difficult to pick up on in an amphibian,but there all the same. This second category is where the GOOD!! vet comes in. 
Me, I'll keep banging away on this,because despite incredibly bad diagnosis by a know nothing vet in a different field(birds) I have also seen the flip side:a vet that tells me what is wrong gets his facts bang on,even tells me oh mate they will die but you can try this.
But, a good vet gives me just that tiny glimmer of hope that i can save my precious little friend.
See that's the point about a good vet,he has the science down that i don't,that's why I'll pay him for his years of study !! That glimmer of hope meant those bird kids that had rip roaring cocci (his words) didn't die,they would have though, without "ol' vetinry" despite the fact he told me they would die.... but a treatment plus a stockman might be just enough.:2thumb:

So i'll finish this ramble twofold,dont right off da vet 'cause you haven't found a good un and...
Cari, apologies for taking a while for maybe....just maybe('cause i really don't know just got a hunch) the penny to drop!! Possibly all you have here is a tiny frog pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.

Whether I'm right or wrong Cari, what i do hope is that it all goes well for you and your little frogs,sorry to take up space in your thread with the vet stuff,tis my humble view they are important to us,nuff said
good luck kiddo

Stu


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

frogman955 said:


> I can`t say one way or the other about colours as my frogs are just way out there colour wise anyway.
> And i`m not just saying that, i`ve posted plenty of pics.
> But I hold my hand up as someone who bought Repashy over a year ago and publicy said that I felt it was a waste of money due to the amount of solid particles which are thrown out after dusting, ie a lot of it was wasted.
> When my Azureus started breeding back in the summer I kept losing froglets due to sls, in fact I lost nearly 30 I think, over a period of time.
> ...



did you go for the rapeshy PLUS ICB tub


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I did that Terry
Fertilisers & Feeds Price List


mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sorry Stu if I was paying a vet the extortionate money he`d be asking i`d want an honest answer and a cure.
I lost a frog last year which was having fits, Ade can vouch for this as I was telling him about it.
Repashy didn`t save it.
It didn`t play dead, it was dead.
Now what would a vet have told me to do ?
Here`s your bill, pay up NOW.
Vets = large holes in the pocket plus a probably dead frog and any heartache that comes along with it.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Sorry Stu, and heh I don't mean to cause offense, but I have NEVER EVER seen a healthy frog flip on it's back and play dead as a defense mechanism, and I started keeping frogs a bit before you, and have a few more species too, so would have thought if it was so common as you say I would have seen it by now... Sure I am no expert, but more time is more time, and more species is more species.

I HAVE seen a frog have a fit multiple times, including flipping onto it's back, the trigger been stress, but the root cause been a vit A deficiency however, and so have many many froggers far more experienced than myself. Sadly that frog died, as it was an adult frog that had been wild farmed/caught, and had clearly never had a decent enough diet and was too far gone when I got it.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Sorry Stu, and heh I don't mean to cause offense, but I have NEVER EVER seen a healthy frog flip on it's back and play dead as a defense mechanism, and I started keeping frogs a bit before you, and have a few more species too, so would have thought if it was so common as you say I would have seen it by now... Sure I am no expert, but more time is more time, and more species is more species.
> 
> I HAVE seen a frog have a fit multiple times, including flipping onto it's back, the trigger been stress, but the root cause been a vit A deficiency however, and so have many many froggers far more experienced than myself. Sadly that frog died, as it was an adult frog that had been wild farmed/caught, and had clearly never had a decent enough diet and was too far gone when I got it.
> 
> Ade


No offence taken Ade...none what so ever! 
Even if we both had quadruple the frogs we both combined won't have seen everything yet,it is just not possible. We are all beginners just trying to help Cari,the best we can with the tiny bit we have seen and if we come from slightly different angles,actually i think that is a great thing.It gives the OP more ammo to get her frog right.


I have seen this only once,maybe twice, i can't remember but the same frog which is still fine and bred all last summer. This happened with a frog that was being moved, we had just bought them,i looked for pictures as I thought i took some,maybe they are on my thread. I wasn't really trying to imply that this behaviour happens all the time,just that it is out there and could conceivably be what has happened here . Shaz and i have reared god knows how many kids we have moved them from morph out to rearing etc etc and even with all the little mysties(it was a female mystie that we saw do this) we have not seen a repeat of this again. The only time we have actually handled frogs was for the RV/ chytrid swabbs and despite me worrying myself sick about the effects and stress,I didn't see it there either
So probably not a common behaviour,just something,i have seen myself and have read of.

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Glad you haven't taken offence Stu, as it wasn't intended to cause any.

Hmm reading what you say, you observed it when you first got the frogs yes? Now I would say this suggests you haven't seen it in frogs you have had longer? Now I happen to know that you, like me, use the Repashy Calcium Plus and Vitamin A Plus supplements. To me, this would support the Vit A and stress related fitting hypothesis. You only saw it in frogs that somebody else had been feeding etc, and you saw it when they felt threatened, ie. stressed. So is it not possible that your frogs were in fact showing a small 'fit' in response to feeling stressed? I'd then go further to suggest that perhaps they hadn't been getting enough Vit A prior to your care either, and this is why you haven't seen it since, as we both know full well that you are right on top of dietry supplementation, something that isn't always true even with very well respected and experienced dart frog breeders.

Every single report I have read with frogs going onto their backs was eventually linked to a stress related 'fit', usually traced back to inadequate Vit A in their diet. I am surprised really that you haven't read the same Stu, as most of what I have read of this nature was on Dendroboard from the very very respected keepers on there? I would suggest that the small number (in comparison) of people who have put it down to "playing dead" have in fact just misunderstood what they have seen.

We both know bud that many keepers who have been in the hobby for a very long time are also very set in their ways, often using older types of supplement which they swear by. We also know that many of these older supplements keepers more willing to change have stopped using and found their frogs much healthier since.  lol It's like any animal husbandry hobby, there's always some guy who argues he's been doing it for 10/20/30 years who's stupidly behind the times but refuses to modify their methods, despite the evidence suporting the need for change.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Sorry Stu if I was paying a vet the extortionate money he`d be asking i`d want an honest answer and a cure.
> I lost a frog last year which was having fits, Ade can vouch for this as I was telling him about it.
> Repashy didn`t save it.
> It didn`t play dead, it was dead.
> ...


Mike,
me old mate I'll put this on myself,i don't want to imply that all your frogs are dropping dead fitting:2thumb:

If I got the right vet,then maybe he wouldn't save my frog,sure i take you point:2thumb:, but maybe he would,maybe all he could tell me was the exact reason why that fit was caused.Now this could go one of two ways as far as money goes,this knowledge might mean that other frogs in my collection will never see another of these fits and although Mr vet has lightened my pocket somewhat,I'm actually better off because my other frogs are still alive that could have died from the same ailment. Plus I'm going to be better as a frogkeeper,with more knowledge. Or yup i might learn nowt and pay for it 

Buddy i take your point good amphibian vets are hard to find,and if you have spent alot of cash and don't get the level of expertise you are paying for,then a vet should be treated no different from any other guy that can't do his job tear him a new one.But they are not all the same and there are good vets that are gaining some serious knowledge, that i truly believe are an asset to us,our frogs and our hobby. 
Look kiddo I hurt when anyone looses a frog,i want to help,but as you've just said despite good vit supps that you were using sadly you lost a frog to fitting.wouldn't it be bloody great to know why that frog properly supplimented on a good diet right temp right humidity has a fit and dies.
That my friend is why i wish we used vets more often. I want to know why X happens and for it not to happen again

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The point here Stu is that the use of vets is being pushed around the forums like there was a supercharger jammed up the backend.
Fact, they are damned expensive.
Fact, most don`t have a clue on amphibians.
Fact, the frog will most likely be dead before the vet even realises there is a problem.
Fact, as mentioned before, when we see the symptoms it`s most likely too late.
Fact, most froggers probably know more about their animals than the vet does.
How many more facts should i or could I post ?
We`ve already had this vet discussion elsewhere and I can`t see the point in continuing it on here to be honest.
There is more to the frog having a fit that i`ve not posted.
But thats a story reserved for another day.

Mike

PS
Lets have a Vet thread to save hijacking other peoples threads.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

You missed one Mike:-

Fact, if a person wanted to take their frog to a vet, they wouldn't post on here asking for help.

To be really honest, if vets are even going to be mentioned, it should be as an "also, it might be an idea to" after giving some suggestions and advice, rather than as the only advice given.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Back on subject. Cari how's the frog doing?

Adam


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Glad you haven't taken offence Stu, as it wasn't intended to cause any.
> 
> Hmm reading what you say, you observed it when you first got the frogs yes? Now I would say this suggests you haven't seen it in frogs you have had longer? Now I happen to know that you, like me, use the Repashy Calcium Plus and Vitamin A Plus supplements. To me, this would support the Vit A and stress related fitting hypothesis. You only saw it in frogs that somebody else had been feeding etc, and you saw it when they felt threatened, ie. stressed. So is it not possible that your frogs were in fact showing a small 'fit' in response to feeling stressed? I'd then go further to suggest that perhaps they hadn't been getting enough Vit A prior to your care either, and this is why you haven't seen it since, as we both know full well that you are right on top of dietry supplementation, something that isn't always true even with very well respected and experienced dart frog breeders.
> 
> ...


 Ade this is the point where i just don't know,i'm sure that stress is a factor,but whether what i saw what mike saw what Cari is seeing are similar symptoms to differing ailments,whether vits A or otherwise would help some cases ,but not others,is where I want to hand this over to a vet. Frogs as we both know are hellish difficult to read as far as being sick,these fits might all be exactly the same cause wise,but they may well be caused by different things.....is what i saw flip on back all limbs in totally motionless no quivering or thrashing about what Cari is seeing? 

I 'm sure i read about the playing dead in lotters mate,but i can't find it.when my frog did it i just assumed it was messing with us and didn't worry,we left alone she came back to life and all is fine,its not really something I've dug for alot. I probably would have if it happened repeatedly,but it hasn't

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yes I have read about various animals playing dead, however given that better nutritions is always, well, better then going on the assumption that this is what is presenting would be foolish.

As to vets, that is your personal prerogative, however you are going to have to face facts that the vast majority of people in the amphibian hobby aren't going to go to a vet, and in fact if they felt a vet was the right thing to do would not in fact actually post on here asking.

You have many times in the past compared yourself to a stockman (aka. an Australian rancher), well there are often times where a stockman will make a best judgement call, knowing that time may well be of the essence. You will find that this is a common approach in quite a few hobbies, amphibians and fish included.

On that note, back on topic as Adam suggested. Too many topics are getting turned into debates about vets Stu, seriously, time to stop.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Yes I have read about various animals playing dead, however given that better nutritions is always, well, better then going on the assumption that this is what is presenting would be foolish.
> 
> As to vets, that is your personal prerogative, however you are going to have to face facts that the vast majority of people in the amphibian hobby aren't going to go to a vet, and in fact if they felt a vet was the right thing to do would not in fact actually post on here asking.
> 
> ...


Yeah i shouldn't have hit the submit button a few hours after writing the post as the thread had moved on, sorry got distracted,by our frogs. I don't need to go further,the point is made

I agree with Adam, Cari how's the little leuc doing now?

Stu


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Right, this frog is definitely having fits. Iv taken the day off work to 100% monitor their behaviour and I just noticed him quivering, Lims completely limp and now looking very, very thin. He's on his way out I'm afraid  absolutely gutted, I've rung the store to inform them (Iv pretty much said he's died) its not about the money as she said I can return have a refund or exchange, I'm just worried about the health of the other and if il be able to get a group for him in future without travel. Poor thing is just completely motionless one minute, with his mouth open flat to the floor and the next up right bouncing around. As for the defence mechanism I've only ever seen it with fire bellies... Going back 4 years ago when I was seeking for my first pair I went to one store when the 'reptile expert' put a led pencil into the tank to move deco around and the fbt's completely freaked out and everyone of them flipped on their backs to expose the shocking colours underneath. Basically "beware, I'm poisonous" in the wild. As for any other amph, I've never heard of it unfortunately... I wish it was that for my guy but doesn't look like he'll be here for much longer. Cheers for all your input guys, guaranteed without all your advise and tweeking of the tank he would have gone first night. 

Cari


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

shame, hopefully with the right adjustments you may be able to save the other one from potentially going down this route, feel sorry for the remainder in the shop.

best of luck.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Thats not so good Cari.
And thanks for keeping us informed, let us know what happens either way though.
I`ll go out on a limb here though and say that if your other one isn`t showing the same symptoms then it`s probably okay.
Frogs at the end of the day are no different to us where you can have a sibling having say epileptic fits while the other is not.
It is also very possible that you`ll never see this happen again.
I will PM you with something i`ve just recently been told, very slightly off topic so nothing sinister but might be of interest to you.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

With Mike, thanks for letting us know.

Agree with Mike that 1 frog doesn't mean the other will do the same either. My Cristobals I started with a pair, the male of the pair kept fitting, and fairly quickly I found him stretched out rigid by the front doors of the viv. These were wild caught/farmed frogs as it turns out, even though I bought them as captive bred. Well anyway the female was fine, and is in fact apart of my adult pair from which I captive bred the ones Mike had from me. 

Best you can do is keep your own personal game on the top rung, with your habitat management and your diet supplementation etc. Sometimes though you buy one that just doesn't stand much chance.

No idea where in the country you are, but if you can reach Stafford in April I can guarantee you there will be folks selling genuinely captive bred, high quality, leucomelas young at BAKS in April.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Stafford would be a good place to get some healthy frogs. Alternatively when you are ready pop a post in classified and you may find a local breeder to you.

Adam


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