# Quick question about Fires & Black Eye Leucistics



## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm having some trouble getting my brain around the punnett square for this pairing as I heard theres only a 1/16 chance of a BEL being produced...

can anyone show me how its done?


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

N = normal
F = fire
FF = super fire = black eyed leucistic

.....N....F
N...N....F
F...F....FF

1:4 chance per egg of the super


that's my way (thee most basic way)
others do it differently tho...


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

alan1 said:


> N = normal
> F = fire
> FF = super fire = black eyed leucistic
> 
> ...


And the super-fire is the BEL?

That's what I had too, but I was told only 1 in 16 would be BELs not 1 in 4...


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

You were told wrong, 1:4 is correct


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

whoever told you that was wrong... : victory:


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks, in that case I was doing it right all along. That's good as I thought I'd lost the genetic plot for a moment then. I have got the hang of single gene pairings but I'm still having trouble working out how to put multiple genes into a punnet.

Such as albino spider x albino fire... if you can help out? : victory:

Firstly how do you know what letters to use for each? How to order them? 

How to work out what all the phenotypes of the resulting genotypes are?


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

have a look in here, bottom of page... Royal Python Morphs Genetics


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

alan1 said:


> have a look in here, bottom of page... Royal Python Morphs Genetics


Thanks : victory:



Got a spider/normal pair coming tomorrow afternoon :2thumb:


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

no more geckos then? lol


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

alan1 said:


> no more geckos then? lol


I've been keeping royals longer than geckos anyway, but I sold all my geckos now to focus mainly on monitor lizards and royal morphs plus the odd other :mf_dribble:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

NightGecko said:


> I have got the hang of single gene pairings but I'm still having trouble working out how to put multiple genes into a punnet.
> 
> Such as albino spider x albino fire... if you can help out? : victory:
> 
> ...


There aren't any official letter symbols for royal python mutant genes. So you can use what works for you, as long as a symbol is unique to a given problem. Generally, its like an alphabet book -- a is for apple, b is for book, etc. 

The convention is that dominant and codominant mutant gene symbols start with an upper case letter and recessive mutant gene symbols start with a lower case letter. Examples of recessive mutant genes: a is for albino, p is for piebald. Examples of codominant mutant genes: F is for fire, S is for spider.

Both piebald (recessive mutant) and pastel (codominant mutant) start with "p". To give them unique symbols, just use the first two letters in one of the names. So P is for pastel, and pi is for piebald. Or p is for piebald, and Pa is for pastel. Either way works.

The internationally recognized genetics symbol for a normal (most common in the wild) gene is +. Most herper web sites use N or n for normal. Both ways work as long as the symbols are defined.

As far as order goes, usually the more dominant gene in a gene pair goes on the left, and the more recessive goes on the right. In the genetics lab where I worked, we used "//" to mean a pair of chromosomes. So a heterozygous albino's gene pair would be N//a, meaning a pair of chromosomes with a normal gene in one chromosome and an albino mutant gene in the same location in the other chromosome. A fire royal's genotype would be F//N. However, the "//" is optional; it can be reduced to "/" or left out entirely.

The order of the gene pairs is whatever you want. An albino fire's genotype could be a//a F//N or F//N a//a, whichever you prefer. It's least confusing if you keep the same order in a given problem, though.

By the way, the Royal Python Morphs Genetics website leaves out as many as possible of the normal genes when doing Punnett squares with two or more gene pairs. While this is a recognized variation, I think it is confusing to a newbie. Particularly because the site's author did not spell out what was done.

The second of the two gene pair problems is Double HET Amel’ and Piebald (ap) x Double HET Amel’ and Piebald (ap). Instead of writing the genotypes as ap, I would write them as N//a N//p. And I'd put N N | a N | N p | a p | across the top and down the sides of the Punnett square. 

NN = N//N N//N
ap = N//a N//p
app = N//a p//p
aap = a//a N//p
and so on.

As for getting phenotypes from the genotypes, the phenotypes are generally additive. So a spider pastel (= bumblebee) royal has the genotype S//N F//N, which produces a spider pattern combined with pastel coloring. It helps to have a list, though. The best list I know of is at Morph List - World of Ball Pythons

Hope that helps.


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

paulh said:


> There aren't any official letter symbols for royal python mutant genes. So you can use what works for you, as long as a symbol is unique to a given problem. Generally, its like an alphabet book -- a is for apple, b is for book, etc.
> 
> The convention is that dominant and codominant mutant gene symbols start with an upper case letter and recessive mutant gene symbols start with a lower case letter. Examples of recessive mutant genes: a is for albino, p is for piebald. Examples of codominant mutant genes: F is for fire, S is for spider.
> 
> ...


That helps a lot, I studied genetics for a while but never really got into it, and their interpretation of co-dominance confused me as it sounded very different to how it is described in royal morphs.

So I'll give a double morph a go and see if I get it right... I'll do it step by step, just correct me if I go wrong : victory:


*Spider het albino X Pastel het albino.*

SS NS Sa Na x PP NP Pa Na ?


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

NightGecko said:


> So I'll give a double morph a go and see if I get it right... I'll do it step by step, just correct me if I go wrong : victory:
> 
> 
> *Spider het albino X Pastel het albino.*
> ...


Going from one gene pair to two gene pairs is a hump in the learning curve for everyone. "Double" means two, as in two gene pairs. But each snake has four gene pairs here. This does not compute.

Actually, this is a fairly difficult problem. Each snake is a double morph, but the mating involves three gene pairs.

It helps to list the abbreviations:
Genes in gene pair #1
S = spider
N = normal

Genes in gene pair #2
N = normal
a = albino

Genes in gene pair #3
P = pastel
N = normal

By the way, the N gene in gene pair #1, the N gene in gene pair #2, and the N gene in gene pair #3 are different genes.

The het albino (Na) part in each snake's genotype is right.

I would read SS as homozygous spider and NS as heterozygous spider. Nobody has found an SS royal, as far as we know. Sa is a spider mutant gene paired with an albino mutant gene, which is impossible because they are in different locations in the chromosomes.

Try the pastel het albino now.


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

NightGecko said:


> That helps a lot, I studied genetics for a while but never really got into it, and their interpretation of co-dominance confused me as it sounded very different to how it is described in royal morphs.


Most texts do a good job with dominant and recessive mutant genes. 

x = mutant gene
N = normal gene

x is dominant to N:
xx shows full effect of gene x
xN shows full effect of gene x, so an xN animal looks like an xx animal.
NN = normal animal
Three gene pairs show two phenotypes.

x is recessive to N:
xx shows full effect of gene x
xN shows full effect of gene N, so an xN animal looks like an NN animal.
NN = normal animal
Three gene pairs show two phenotypes.


x is codominant to N:
xx shows full effect of gene x
xN does not look like an NN animal or like an xx animal
NN = normal animal
Three gene pairs show three phenotypes.

The texts tend to overly complicate what we call codominance. They split it by phenotype. If the xN animal is more or less intermediate between an xx and NN animal, the x gene is a partial dominant, semidominant, or incomplete dominant. If the xN animal is superior to both the xx and NN, then x is a transdominant or overdominant. If part of the xN animal is like an xx animal and part is like an NN animal (most commonly found in molecular tests like blood typing), the x gene is a codominant. FOR SIMPLICITY, we lump them all together. "Codominant" is simply the shortest of the existing terms.


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

paulh said:


> Most texts do a good job with dominant and recessive mutant genes.
> 
> x = mutant gene
> N = normal gene
> ...


Thanks for that, very helpful breakdown : victory:


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

paulh said:


> Going from one gene pair to two gene pairs is a hump in the learning curve for everyone. "Double" means two, as in two gene pairs. But each snake has four gene pairs here. This does not compute.
> 
> Actually, this is a fairly difficult problem. Each snake is a double morph, but the mating involves three gene pairs.
> 
> ...


Okay, so Spider het albino X Pastel het albino would be...

SN Na x PN Na ?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

NightGecko said:


> *Spider het albino X Pastel het albino.*
> 
> SS NS Sa Na x PP NP Pa Na ?


I would express that as:

*S *is spider, *s *is normal-not-spider (Spider gets a capital letter because it behaves as dominant/codominant to normal).
*P *is pastel, *p *is normal-not-pastel (Pastel gets a capital letter because it behaves as codominant to normal).
*A *is not-albino, *a *is albino (Albino gets a lower-case letter because it is recessive to normal).

Spider het albino (*Ss Aa pp*) X Pastel het albino (*ss Aa Pp*)

There's a 25% chance of albino from that pairing (and each albino has a 50% chance of being spider or normal, and a SEPARATE 50% chance of being pastel or normal - for a 6.25% chance per egg of getting albino bumblebee *Ss aa Pp*). 
There's a 75% chance of being "not albino" from that pairing (with each non-albino having a 50% chance of being spider or normal, and a separate 50% chance of being pastel or normal - for an 18.75% chance per egg of getting a normal that's possibly het Albino - *ss A* pp*)

I personally don't like using ambiguous/same symbols (like + or N) to represent "normal" because it seems to me that some folks don't understand that there is a wildtype equivalent for *every* mutant trait. The only time I use a "wildcard" for a trait - like * - is when you've got a dominant on one half of the gene pair and an UNKNOWN on the other half, like the "normal possible het albino" above.


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

I understand the way you say to use Ss and Aa rather than SN / AN... 

So is this right, crossed the pairing counted them up and hazarded a guess at the phenotypes..


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I wouldn't do the punnett that way either - the top row would be:

SAp (spider, not albino, not pastel) / sAp (not spider not albino not pastel) / Sap (spider, albino, not pastel) / sap (not spider albino not pastel) 

That's because those are the four possible genotypes that a Spider het Albino can pass on to any given offspring (for the mutant traits we're dealing with)

The left-hand side would be similar:

sAP (not spider, not albino, pastel) / sAp (not spider, not albino, not pastel) / saP (not spider, albino, pastel) / sap (not spider, albino, not pastel)

So you'd have:

------ SAp ----- sAp ----- Sap ----- sap
sAP - SsAAPp -- ssAAPp -- SsAaPp -- SsAaPp
sAp - SsAApp -- ssAApp -- SsAapp -- ssAapp
saP - SsAaPp -- ssAaPp -- SsaaPp -- ssaaPp
sap - SsAapp -- ssAapp -- Ssaapp -- ssaapp

SsAAPp is Bumblebee - it carries spider and pastel but not albino.
SsAaPp is also Bumblebee, but het albino.
SsaaPp is Albino Bumblebee.
ssAAPp is Pastel - it carries pastel but neither albino nor spider.
ssAaPp is also Pastel, but het albino.
ssaaPp is Pastel Albino.
SsAApp is Spider.
SsAapp is Spider het Albino.
Ssaapp is Spider Albino.
ssaapp is Albino.
ssAapp is Normal het Albino
ssAApp is Normal not het Albino.


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

Righto, you'll have to remember I'm looking at this from the mindset of someone who understands the basics but can't quite grasp this stuff. I'll give another pairing a go and see if I get it right.

Fire het pied X Spider het pied

SPf (spider, not pied, not fire) / sPf (not spider, not pied, not fire) / Spf (spider, pied, not fire) / spf (not spider pied not fire)

sPF (not spider, not albino, fire) / sPf (not spider, not albino, not fire) / spF (not spider, albino, fire) / spf (not spider, albino, not fire)


------ SPf ----- sPf ----- Spf ----- spf
sPF -SsPPFf - - ssPPFf - - SsPpFf - - ssPpFf
sPf - SsPPff - - ssPPff - - SsPpff - - ssPpff
spF - SsPpFf - - ssPpFf - - SsppFf - - ssppFf
spf - SsPpff - - ssPpff - - Ssppff - - ssppff

SsPPFf - Spider Fire
ssPPFf - Fire
SsPpFf - Spider Fire het Pied
ssPpFf - Fire het Pied

SsPPff - Spider
ssPPff - Normal
SsPpff - Spider het Pied
ssPpff - Normal het Pied

SsPpFf - Spider Fire het Pied
ssPpFf - Fire het Pied
SsppFf - Spider Fire Pied
ssppFf - Fire Pied

SsPpff - Spider het Pied
ssPpff - Normal het Pied
Ssppff - Spider Pied
ssppff - Pied


Right?

If this is good hit me with another to work out :lol2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Looks right to me 

Ok, what if you tried the same cross, but with a Spider het Pied bred to a Fire Pied?


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Looks right to me
> 
> Ok, what if you tried the same cross, but with a Spider het Pied bred to a Fire Pied?


Hmmm, not sure how to do that one as it must have 2 pied genes but here goes;

SPf Spf sPf spf

spF spf

------ SPf ----- sPf ----- Spf ----- spf
spF - SsPpFf - - ssPpFf - - SsppFf - - ssppFf
spf - SsPpff - - ssPpff - - Ssppff - - ssppff

SsPpFf - Spider Fire het Pied
ssPpFf - Fire het Pied
SsppFf - Spider Fire Pied
ssppFf - Fire Pied

SsPpff - Spider het Pied
ssPpff - Normal het Pied
Ssppff - Spider Pied
ssppff - Pied

: victory:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Bullseye!

Once you know how to get all the possible genotypes in the sperm and eggs, it's just a matter of grinding out all the genotypes of the fertilized eggs.


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## NightGecko (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks guys this has been a big help. I have my first morph paired up now anyway :2thumb: : victory:


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