# APA impacts Doncaster show



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Shame that it comes to this, but perhaps we'll see more action from APA

Animal Protection Agency


----------



## chalky76 (Aug 23, 2007)

Have a look here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/858627-ihs-statement-re-breeders-meeting.html seems to me the APA are just publishing drivel as they always do.

However their facebook groups says they are not happy with invert keepers either







so it is viable that they will target us in due course as well!!!


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

The Ihs have issued an official statement regarding the doncaster show.

In fact, poxicator, is there a way of making that more visible to a wider audience, Its currently In the breeders meeting forum, where less people go.

Cheers,

Tarron


----------



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

3 reptile experts? who were they? no names have been given that I can see?

Out of the many other experts that attend the show which I am sure is going to be more than 3 what makes them think that they are so right and everyone else is so wrong?

edit...
Just relised this is the spider section but my point remains.


----------



## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

Why cant these people die?
They are so unbelievibly thick and serve no purpose.


----------



## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

chalky76 said:


> Have a look here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/858627-ihs-statement-re-breeders-meeting.html seems to me the APA are just publishing drivel as they always do.
> 
> However their facebook groups says they are not happy with invert keepers either image so it is viable that they will target us in due course as well!!!



Yeah right :lol2eople use the word reciprocity all the time.


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> 3 reptile experts? who were they? no names have been given that I can see?
> 
> Out of the many other experts that attend the show which I am sure is going to be more than 3 what makes them think that they are so right and everyone else is so wrong?




Here you go mate.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/hobby-issues-information/843180-call-ban-shows-again.html

(BTW, on this site at least it is customary to refer to the writers of the piece of toilet paper to which the thread talks about as "experts" rather than experts. :2thumb


----------



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Here you go mate.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/hobby-issues-information/843180-call-ban-shows-again.html
> 
> (BTW, on this site at least it is customary to refer to the writers of the piece of toilet paper to which the thread talks about as "experts" rather than experts. :2thumb


Phillip C Arena _BSc (Hons) PhD (Reptile and Amphibian Anatomy and Physiology)_
Catrina Steedman _BSc (Hons) (Psychology) AMSB (Reptile Biology)_
*Clifford Warwick* _DipMedSci (Medicine, Zoonoses) CBiol (Reptile Biology) FSB (Reptile Biology)_


Oh yeah, I remember that thread now, that guy who beleives he is a scientist, the other two I would have to do some digging on.:2thumb:

Thanks mate.


----------



## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Why cant these people die?
> They are so unbelievibly thick and serve no purpose.


I dunno, some of them would make a damn good alternative to a pinata. 

End the cruelty! Save the paper donkeys! :devil:


----------



## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Phillip C Arena _BSc (Hons) PhD (Reptile and Amphibian Anatomy and Physiology)_
> Catrina Steedman _BSc (Hons) (Psychology) AMSB (Reptile Biology)_
> *Clifford Warwick* _DipMedSci (Medicine, Zoonoses) CBiol (Reptile Biology) FSB (Reptile Biology)_
> 
> ...


Ah Mr Warwick the man with meaningless letters after his name . . . INTERESTING LINK


----------



## stevemet (Dec 29, 2011)

chalky76 said:


> Have a look here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/858627-ihs-statement-re-breeders-meeting.html seems to me the APA are just publishing drivel as they always do.
> 
> However their facebook groups says they are not happy with invert keepers either image so it is viable that they will target us in due course as well!!!


18% of inverts dead in 10 days. Yesterday 100% of my locusts and about 20% of my roaches were dead in no time.
Spiders and lizards were happy though !


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

chalky76 said:


> Have a look here http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/858627-ihs-statement-re-breeders-meeting.html seems to me the APA are just publishing drivel as they always do.
> 
> However their facebook groups says they are not happy with invert keepers either image so it is viable that they will target us in due course as well!!!


News at 10. Today the APA draws a clear link between invert keepers and serial killers.

"Their lack of emotional reciprocity for their pets, is a clear sign of underlying sociopathic traits" stated Dr Borerick, to a half empty bar :lol2:


----------



## JK3ITH °_• (Aug 3, 2011)

Oderus said:


> News at 10. Today the APA draws a clear link between invert keepers and serial killers.
> 
> "Their lack of emotional reciprocity for their pets, is a clear sign of underlying sociopathic traits" stated Dr Borerick, to a half empty bar :lol2:


hahaha serial killers lol, that was just one person...and how is it a public safety risk, unless you run around the show sticking your face in the tanks and then blame the snake for biting you.


----------



## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

Urgh, I was just stupid enough to look at their facebook and the first thing I spotted was them playing on the fire at my local place as part of their propeganda. Lowlife scum is all I can say, the owners of Animal Tracks were devastated, I was in their other branch and the lass I usually see at the one which burned down was still choked up about it. Seeing that bunch using it and playing on the place being "unattended" (well yeah, it was very early in the bloody morning before opening!) is more sickening than anything they're campaigning against.


----------



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

I wonder how many APA members have swatted a fly or squished a spider in the bath tub....


----------



## spidersnake (Dec 1, 2009)

This is totally pathetic & we let these :censor: peddle there propaganda for what?
They dont have a dogs chance in Hell of stopping these shows because the organisers PAY to have these shows & the councils will loose too much revenue to cancel them on what a bunch of stupid :censor: activists say.
I've seen their FB page & they are talking a steaming pile of :censor:! They have loads of stories of reptile shops being torched. If it isn't them torching the shops how do they know about the fires? & isn't burning any animal alive cruelty? Is putting some poor soul out of business (in this economic climate) worse than him/her selling an animal to someone who will take proper care of it?
The only people who have the power to stop the hobby is US if we dont stick together!
:censor: to what they say, "The show must go on" is what I say, who's with me?


----------



## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

OK, so imagine the worst scenario that can pan out from this.

No shows, no selling of excess stock, no breeding, no hobby.

Loads of exotics queueing up at the vets waitng to be put down.

Monitors and alligators roaming the streets and sewers.

Whole collections of pokies being posted to unwitting activists.

Hmmmmmmm. :hmm:


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

so they have based their theory on ONE PHD mind, ONE masters mind and ONE BSC mind
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool 

well I can tell you when i did my masters there - I wasnt so impressed by my peers - that is a chuffing outrage lol

in addition the oderus comment about sociopathic behaviour - well I challenge anyone to prove that sociopathic behaviour cannot be identified in any test subject. 

largely this hobby is full of maintainers - not destroyers


----------



## MustLoveSnails (Aug 2, 2009)

I can't help but wonder how many of these buffoons wanted a hamster or snake or something as a child and were not allowed one....


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I just find it disappointing that these people seem to want to dictate a loss of experienceon everyone else. If they don't want to keep pets then OK, if they feel welfare could be improved then make suggestions. 

For most, their first experience of animals are from pets. If that breeds enthusiasm and a general ethos of 'caring' for animals with that animal then awesome. If that experience breeds concern for other organisms then that is a victory. 

There's a well cited paper in the urban ecology literature which basically parallels this sort of idea - check it out, by Miller, 2005. 'Extinction of experience'. 

It's about how green spaces and interaction with nature breeds wider concern for nature and organisms. If you deny that to people, it is harder to push conservation. 

If anything, the APA is simply hurting conservation of animals and improvements in husbandry. 

The annoying thing is, I actually agree that we as a community should constantly be striving to improve welfare of animals and improve husbandry practices as new imformation is available. However, an outright ban to me is a step backwards, limits information sharing and will simply result in a bunch of people who don't have any connection to nature and will therefore be much harder to persuade that nature is a 'good thing'.


----------



## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

I made a comment on their facebook in response to them linking the news article about Animal Tracks - they've deleted the comment. Clearly they're happy to incorrectly state that "hundreds" of animals died because that's what it said in the paper - which is correct, but neglects to note that this would be mostly fish and implies that it's all exotic reptiles and mammals.


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

i feel as though the bts should have injunctive powers against the apa. in addition how does this affect the self determination of peoples? clearly their arguments are dogmatic - and we as a culture of people fundamentally disagree. 

GRB makes a point that I have argued for on this subject several times - we as hobbyists are ultimately powerless to stop the mistreatment of animals by other keepers - and the apa are basically saying - well if they die in the wild then we dont owe them a duty of care, thats for the animal world to worry about, I think its perverse to think they are better off in the wild - there is on likely to be much less interaction with them in a controlled box in a cupboard. 

increase hobby regulation eg. dwa style licencing and stop the horrors animal abuse in our hobby.


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

What I find upsetting is, that if the APA were to change thier stance, they could be a massive ally to the reptile keeping community.

We could work together to prevent illegal trafficking, we could set up, with thier aid, conservation projects to help keep animals from extinction.

all they would need to do is get rid of Elaine Tolland, and have a mild change of stance.


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

Tarron said:


> What I find upsetting is, that if the APA were to change thier stance, they could be a massive ally to the reptile keeping community.
> 
> We could work together to prevent illegal trafficking, we could set up, with thier aid, conservation projects to help keep animals from extinction.
> 
> all they would need to do is get rid of Elaine Tolland, and have a mild change of stance.


excellent point :notworthy:


----------



## ojo (Jun 8, 2011)

gambitgareth said:


> i feel as though the bts should have injunctive powers against the apa. in addition how does this affect the self determination of peoples? clearly their arguments are dogmatic - and we as a culture of people fundamentally disagree.
> 
> GRB makes a point that I have argued for on this subject several times - we as hobbyists are ultimately powerless to stop the mistreatment of animals by other keepers - and the apa are basically saying - well if they die in the wild then we dont owe them a duty of care, thats for the animal world to worry about, I think its perverse to think they are better off in the wild - there is on likely to be much less interaction with them in a controlled box in a cupboard.
> 
> increase hobby regulation eg. dwa style licencing and stop the horrors animal abuse in our hobby.


Thats a cracking point mate, all the animal orginisations should be coming forward to help APA, help every one else! 

The fact that bugs me is the way they seem to turn EVERYTHING into some kind of scare tactic for everyone not envolved in the related hobbies. E.g "Another person dies because of their DWA animal"... yeah but what about the guy down the road from me who had half his arm ripped off by his own dog.. They are the pinnicle of journalism, write down what people will read/react to, but give bugger all in the way of facts/rationalism or evidence to suggest that they (APA) are nothing but idiots.


----------



## antmac (Jan 28, 2009)

it sounds silly rather than beeing open about the shows that go on it will go under ground and they wont be able to check and might make the problem worse


----------



## JK3ITH °_• (Aug 3, 2011)

were they still selling at the show then? or did no one buy anything?


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

JK3ITH °_• said:


> were they still selling at the show then? or did no one buy anything?


: victory:
It's on Sunday Keith


----------



## JK3ITH °_• (Aug 3, 2011)

Tarron said:


> : victory:
> It's on Sunday Keith


lol, sorry, didnt check the date :blush:


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

ojo - whats really painful is that they arent even prepared to have a convesation with anyone - constantly deleting messages on fb - i know ive had mine deleted along with lots of others that have too - its a scam.


----------



## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> Shame that it comes to this, but perhaps we'll see more action from APA
> 
> Animal Protection Agency


 
The APA have finally discovered all these un tapped resources to make more revenue, of course we will be targeted in due course... Anyone would think we live in a free world...

Sadly anyone on this thread who actually thinks that it's for the animals is sadly miss informed... it's all about the Money!!


----------



## JK3ITH °_• (Aug 3, 2011)

Dr3d said:


> The APA have finally discovered all these un tapped resources to make more revenue, of course we will be targeted in due course... Anyone would think we live in a free world...
> 
> Sadly anyone on this thread who actually thinks that it's for the animals is sadly miss informed... it's all about the Money!!


nicely said


----------



## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

JK3ITH °_• said:


> nicely said


 
Thanks

Just noticed this published on their site..

*All of our work will be identified clearly as either APA Foundation or APA Ltd.*

*Animal Protection Agency Limited - Company No: 5180872*
*Animal Protection Agency Foundation - Company No. 6371987
Registered Charity No. 1123569*

This would tell me they are 2 companies operating and companies make money, pay wages. All the talk of non profit making seems like a play on words..


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

gambitgareth said:


> i feel as though the bts should have injunctive powers against the apa. in addition how does this affect the self determination of peoples? clearly their arguments are dogmatic - and we as a culture of people fundamentally disagree.
> 
> GRB makes a point that I have argued for on this subject several times - we as hobbyists are ultimately powerless to stop the mistreatment of animals by other keepers - and the apa are basically saying - well if they die in the wild then we dont owe them a duty of care, thats for the animal world to worry about, I think its perverse to think they are better off in the wild - there is on likely to be much less interaction with them in a controlled box in a cupboard.
> 
> increase hobby regulation eg. dwa style licencing and stop the horrors animal abuse in our hobby.


injunctive powers for the bts? Hell no! There is no way on earth that I would like to see any real power go to the people (who in my oppinion are so far up their own asses) who run this! This would mean they could aply them to anyone who does not agree with them, which is ok for the sheep out there but for those with a point of view of their own....satan help them!

I have to agree with the statements made by GRB and the question about if they are better off in the wild or not is a complete non starter and a bloody stupid question to begin with. From whose point of view are you going to look at with this question? the inverts that are incapable of having a point of view or the person whose point of view will be that which suits themselfs best?

You want an increase of hobby regulation? who is going to regulate this? who is quaified to regulate? more dwa licencing? would this not mean more species put on the list like pokies and many old world, not to mention a good few new world tarantulas put on, but lets just stick to pokies being added for this example. Can you foresee the uproar by those pokie keepers when they find out that they now need to have their homes inspected to make sure they are safe, and also now need to pay a nice expensive licence fee. I wonder how many would play ball as oppose to just keep them out of the public view so that no one can report them. (this way you won't get to hear about there experinces either). I could list around 20 or so people who keep dwa scorps/spiders etc without a licence and I do not doubt that many of you can do as well, so to say dwa licence laws are of much use as a hobby regulation is pretty naive when it comes to those animals that don't need to come out behind closed doors.



> We could work together to prevent illegal trafficking, we could set up, with thier aid, conservation projects to help keep animals from extinction.


I have heard this said a thousand times and nothing will ever be done about it by the hobby. Oh we all like to say that we don't support illegal collecting, smuggling etc etc, but crunch comes to the crunch we do not really give a dam, and we prove this time and time again by supporting certain dealers, big upping certain people just because they may have a fair bit of knowledge or hold places on committees who are guilty of such things, yet it dosn't matter because they are our friends, they are a nice person, they know their stuff so it ok when they do it or they only took a few etc etc. We will always make excuses for them because we want what they have to offer....the next new species or species at a cheaper rate. If you are big up on conservation this in not a hobby to have.

Like all animal lib groups the apa are just the complete oppersite of us. they will not change their views just as we wont change ours. We say if we could just come to some compromise where we could work together, but really? What are we really willing to give up? What are we willing to inforce in our hobbys to gain aceptance from them? because if we never speak out againts people we know or like when they do wrong then we should never be taken too seriously when conservation comes up.

Just one other thing....explain the high mortality rate in pet inverts. And the cop out that some are just not ment to be does not count as the young all have the protential to survive a captive enviorment.

A little off track some/all of it?:whistling2:


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

yes i didnt mean they should have delegated powers - sorry i agree it reads that way - i merely meant that they as a conglomerate should be active in pursuing legal action against companies like the apa who smear the hobby with ill informed statements 

licensing the hobby is an excellent way of upholding standards - i did not mention an expansion of the dwa list i said 'syle' meaning form - it suggests that there are examples of the hobby that are controlled by licensing and so it is not impossible to oversee. As a licence payer you get something in return. the hypothetical body would not be a non government organisation such as the bts - who like you say are virtually powerless... voice is a weapon though - as you well know. (and on that its nice to see a reasonable side of - all i have ever seen is cruelty) thanks for your thoughts bp


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> I have heard this said a thousand times and nothing will ever be done about it by the hobby. Oh we all like to say that we don't support illegal collecting, smuggling etc etc, but crunch comes to the crunch we do not really give a dam, and we prove this time and time again by supporting certain dealers, big upping certain people just because they may have a fair bit of knowledge or hold places on committees who are guilty of such things, yet it dosn't matter because they are our friends, they are a nice person, they know their stuff so it ok when they do it or they only took a few etc etc. We will always make excuses for them because we want what they have to offer....the next new species or species at a cheaper rate. If you are big up on conservation this in not a hobby to have.
> 
> Like all animal lib groups the apa are just the complete oppersite of us. they will not change their views just as we wont change ours. We say if we could just come to some compromise where we could work together, but really? What are we really willing to give up? What are we willing to inforce in our hobbys to gain aceptance from them? because if we never speak out againts people we know or like when they do wrong then we should never be taken too seriously when conservation comes up.


Very true. But in the end we would only be able to placate the least extreme end of the AL spectrum, as after all, many of them would like to see keeping "pets" ended full stop.

I do however believe we could reverse the very draconian rules of countries such as Brazil, in time, with the help of conservation groups, if the support for biopiracy was not so wide spread and blatant. As it is few care, so long as they get their new name, or a new must have to market.



Baldpoodle said:


> Just one other thing....explain the high mortality rate in pet inverts. And the cop out that some are just not ment to be does not count as the young all have the protential to survive a captive enviorment.
> 
> A little off track some/all of it?:whistling2:


Because people forget to look after collections that run into 100's and 1000's .


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

Oderus said:


> Because people forget to look after collections that run into 100's and 1000's .


this of course - 

but (do you know what really grinds my gears?:lol2 we see it all the time where animals are bought and the new owner - although enthusiastic knows nothing about their pet, basic care is to find out what the pet needs surely


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

gambitgareth said:


> this of course -
> 
> but (do you know what really grinds my gears?:lol2 we see it all the time where animals are bought and the new owner - although enthusiastic knows nothing about their pet, basic care is to find out what the pet needs surely


True, and in these days, anyone with internet access really has little excuse for ignorance.

But that said, the APA and their like, in opposing shows were hobby breeders sale their unwanted stock, do cut off one of the best sources of information for new buyers. Whereas both uninformed staff, and online shops give the clueless more chance to purchase on impulse.

But if anything, this is a tactic they knowing employ, and a major part of their long term goals..


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

gambitgareth said:


> yes i didnt mean they should have delegated powers - sorry i agree it reads that way - i merely meant that they as a conglomerate should be active in pursuing legal action against companies like the apa who smear the hobby with ill informed statements
> 
> licensing the hobby is an excellent way of upholding standards - i did not mention an expansion of the dwa list i said 'syle' meaning form - it suggests that there are examples of the hobby that are controlled by licensing and so it is not impossible to oversee. As a licence payer you get something in return. the hypothetical body would not be a non government organisation such as the bts - who like you say are virtually powerless... voice is a weapon though - as you well know. (and on that its nice to see a reasonable side of - all i have ever seen is cruelty) thanks for your thoughts bp


I see what you mean but you you really want to be apart of a hobby where you can be sued for making an mistake in any statement you make about an invert? ok I know I have taken this a little to the exstream here and know full well this not what you ment, but would it end up us living in fear of this? you know, watch what you say as it may bring the hobby in a bad light....bang 200 pound fine!:flrt:

Sorry but I can't agree on the licence thing for inverts. For one it is too easy to buy from over seas where a licence is not required in most places, I also dont think you would get many foreign people come over to shows if it ment they had to get a licence to be able to sell in the UK. Not to mention the complete balls ach of having to produce your licence in order to buy a spider. Not sure what I would hate most controling my licence fees, the bts using my money for car hire or the government wasting it on paying some scabby bone idle chav so it can live for free on dole money.

I dont think the hobby or anyone need any of this but what they could do with is more education and the type of stuff Guy Tansley does welcome to bugsnstuff.com! to get these type of days compusary in schools etc. Get kids interested again in the world they live in instead of the next sonic hedgehog crap that comes out for 60 quid a shot.



> Originally Posted by *Oderus*
> _
> Because people forget to look after collections that run into 100's and 1000's ._


yes that about sums up my thoughts as well and can show a little emmpathy for groups like apa and why they see a hobby like ours as they do. when wild caught get imported how many arrive dead in shipments, none, some, many? and from these that don't get sold on how many go on to snuff it in the dealers stocks, and not just wild caught How much captive bred stuff actually sees it through to adulthood? I think the percentage is very poor so to me at least it stands to reason why they see our hobby how they do, even if I dissagree with their pollicies.


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

well join the club by spamming their facebook page with valid arguments thats one way to stand up against them :lol2: and anyway apa are consumer welfarists - what european government would quell a thriving business?


----------



## Tarantulaguy01 (Mar 31, 2012)

gambitgareth said:


> well join the club by spamming their facebook page with valid arguments thats one way to stand up against them :lol2: and anyway apa are consumer welfarists - what european government would quell a thriving business?


I did this and because I put to them the truth and I got lots of likes for what u wrote I got blocked and my comments removed . guess they don't like the truth


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

i just got banned :/ one comment too many - i only appealed to them as a former student of andrew dobson - a published animal rights activist - that there are people around that can offer them information instead of making such flagrant assumptions... as i have said censorship will not win the war


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> yes that about sums up my thoughts as well and can show a little emmpathy for groups like apa and why they see a hobby like ours as they do. when wild caught get imported how many arrive dead in shipments, none, some, many? and from these that don't get sold on how many go on to snuff it in the dealers stocks, and not just wild caught How much captive bred stuff actually sees it through to adulthood? I think the percentage is very poor so to me at least it stands to reason why they see our hobby how they do, even if I dissagree with their pollicies.


Many people still have the, keep em at 70f-80f, a bit wet, or a bit dry, type attitude. I'm sure most spiders would do better with correct day/night and seasonal variations, just for starters.

In terms of deaths caused and species potentially lost, I'm sure the hobby is behind both habitat destruction, and in many cases behind the trade in wild harvested dried specimens.

But the spider hobby at least, certainly does nothing to help wild populations, and the exact opposite in most cases. 

In that I agree with the concerns of genuine conservation groups. As I said before if we started to work to change that, I believe we would reap benefits in the long run, i.e. just think of how many new species of Theraphosids alone you could potentially see from Brazil as legal W/C, or better still C/B stock from responsibly collected, and correctly ID'ed stock bred for the export market.

Frankly I can't see any of the invert hobby societys really putting up the same fight as the reptile hobby has to date. To few numbers, to little potential funding. Plus I have a feeling the hobby lacks the same kind of fire brands, I have the image of Neville Chamberlain and his piece of paper for some reason..


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Oderus said:


> Many people still have the, keep em at 70f-80f, a bit wet, or a bit dry, type attitude. I'm sure most spiders would do better with correct day/night and seasonal variations, just for starters.
> 
> *In terms of deaths caused and species potentially lost, I'm sure the hobby is behind both habitat destruction, and in many cases behind the trade in wild harvested dried specimens.*
> 
> ...


wahahaha I know what you want to say (only because im talking to you on skype) but you make the hobby sound so evil lol.

*In terms of deaths caused and species potentially lost, I'm sure the hobby is behind both habitat destruction, and in many cases behind the trade in wild harvested dried specimens.*

I'm sure the hobby is not responsible for so many deaths and loss of species like habitat destruction and the trade in dried specimens is. (dont think it is far behind the dried specimen one though).


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> wahahaha I know what you want to say (only because im talking to you on skype) but you make the hobby sound so evil lol.
> 
> *In terms of deaths caused and species potentially lost, I'm sure the hobby is behind both habitat destruction, and in many cases behind the trade in wild harvested dried specimens.*
> 
> I'm sure the hobby is not responsible for so many deaths and loss of species like habitat destruction and the trade in dried specimens is. (dont think it is far behind the dried specimen one though).


But they're evil, evil I tells you. They take cute fuzzywuzzy spiders from the rain forest and put them in plastic tubs.:lol2:

But that said, collectors do mess about with the habitats where the spiders are found, digging up banks etc. So in a way, the hobby might be _behind_ habitat destruction in a limited, or at least localised way.


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

or they could do that thing where you have to plant a tree for everyone you cut down i.e replace your captive ts with tegenaria :lol2:


----------



## JK3ITH °_• (Aug 3, 2011)

Oderus said:


> But they're evil, evil I tells you. They take cute fuzzywuzzy spiders from the rain forest and put them in plastic tubs.:lol2:
> 
> But that said, collectors do mess about with the habitats where the spiders are found, digging up banks etc. So in a way, the hobby might be _behind_ habitat destruction in a limited, or at least localised way.


Thats why i always make sure that i never buy wild caughts


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

*bird of a feather theme tune* :lol2: 

I agree tho I prefer cb too


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

JK3ITH °_• said:


> Thats why i always make sure that i never buy wild caughts


so how do you go about doing this?


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

its a fallacy - you can buy captive bred slings - but dada is never gonna be lonely leggy what lives on the window


----------



## JK3ITH °_• (Aug 3, 2011)

Baldpoodle said:


> so how do you go about doing this?


ask the seller if its captive or not...if they lie then its on them, not me


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I think when we choose to attack those who take small amounts of specimens from their natural environment we begin to lose out on the bigger picture. And, I think anyone that chooses to do so is a hypocrite if they themselves have specimens derived from such source. Its a negative argument.

It would be a lovely thought to consider that animals should be left in their natural environment but the sad fact is that environment is depleting by immeasurable amounts on a daily basis and as a result we are losing the animals that inhabit those areas.

"Of the 40,168 species that the 10,000 scientists in the World Conservation Union have assessed, one in four mammals, one in eight birds, one in three amphibians, one in three conifers and other gymnosperms are at risk of extinction. The peril faced by other classes of organisms is less thoroughly analysed, but fully 40 per cent of the examined species of planet earth are in danger, including perhaps 51 per cent of reptiles, 52 per cent of insects, and 73 per cent of flowering plants."

Throughout the 20th century the causes of extinction - habitat degradation, overexploitation, agricultural monocultures, human-borne invasive species, human-induced climate-change - increased exponentially, until now in the 21st century the rate is nothing short of explosive."

We now understand that the majority of life on Earth has never been - and will never be - known to us. In a staggering forecast, (Edward) Wilson (Harvard biologist) predicts that our present course will lead to the extinction of half of all plant and animal species by 2100."

protecting pretty landscapes, attempts at sustainable development, community-based conservation and ecosystem management - will not preserve biodiversity through the critical next century. By then, half of all species will be lost, by Wilson's calculation."

Julia Whitty
The Independent
30 April 2007

And to help this situation ALA suggest we shouldn't keep pets!


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> Throughout the 20th century the causes of extinction - habitat degradation, overexploitation, agricultural monocultures, human-borne invasive species, human-induced climate-change - increased exponentially, until now in the 21st century the rate is nothing short of explosive."


So explosive that we can't find any quantitative evidence we are actually in an extinction period :lol:

Thats just an aside, from a biodiversity measurement point of view it's actually been really difficult to calculate global change in diversity. At present they are looking for change in the _rate of change_ to get seperation from turnover in communities. 

One thing that is not appreciated by modern folks is that nature is, and never has been, static. Turnover is a totally natural process in communities, some go extinct, some increase, some spread, some ranges contract. Darwin described this in detail and that very thing underpins natural selection. However, most seem to want to keep environments pristine these days and the loss of a species is seen as catastrophic rather than inevitable. 

Still, that figure of 50% is not that unrealistic if we were to carry on as normal. Whilst captive populations are never a realistic long term conservation goal, in some cases it is better to have some in captivity than hope that Brazil suddenly puts the wild populations in reserves or whatever. 

The thing that bugs me is that these APA folks don't seem to have any conservation scientists on board and yet try to talk as if they have that in priority. Of course, your average hobbyist is also doing the damage as rightly pointed out by others here. People reading this can probably understand where my disdain for the 'pokemon approach' to tarantula keeping comes from and why I never bother buying 'the in thing'. That and where my annoyance at those defending certain smugglers also arose! :lol: 

I do have some WC specimens, but it's difficult to avoid them entirely and I usually use WC to establish populations if possible (e.g. like my recent breeding of Hoga helluo and H.carolinensis for behavioural studies). You can only do your best at the end of the suppy chain to try to buy ethically; ultimately, it does come down to needing some ethical suppliers. Even strong consumer demand for ethical sourcing simply leads to some sellers lying and upping the prices.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

JK3ITH °_• said:


> ask the seller if its captive or not...if they lie then its on them, not me


ah full proof then.:whistling2:


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> ah full proof then.:whistling2:




Not really much else you can do at the end of the supply chain though. 

I mean, it might be obvious when things like that Oligoxystere sp. came through recently (from Brazil you say? Legal you say? Whats that about permits? Oh yeah I had whatever one they issue :whistling2 but if you get someone selling slings or such you pretty much end up simply accepting it if they say they were responsibly sourced.


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

GRB said:


> Not really much else you can do at the end of the supply chain though.
> 
> I mean, it might be obvious when things like that Oligoxystere sp. came through recently (*from Brazil you say? Legal you say? Whats that about permits? Oh yeah I had whatever one they issue* :whistling2 but if you get someone selling slings or such you pretty much end up simply accepting it if they say they were responsibly sourced.


Ah, I wish I still had the link to my "Brazillan collecting permits", I'm sure Deforest Kelley would have never known his lines would have been cribbed for use in the spider hobby. :whistling2:


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> I think when we choose to attack those who take small amounts of specimens from their natural environment we begin to lose out on the bigger picture. And, I think anyone that chooses to do so is a hypocrite if they themselves have specimens derived from such source. Its a negative argument.


I personly have no problem with people taking small amounts out their natural habitate when it is done correctly by which I mean minimum impact, and with the proper authority permission and correct documentation etc, But I will not big up even the most devout big wig even they do claim it is for the name of science. 
By not getting the proper permission they are smugglers and guilty of stealing from what ever nation they are taking the livetock from. If they are told after applying for permission that they can not collect then tough, they need to try harder to get permission and not just take them anyway. Some who do this (and yes I know full well this goes on) if caught are just ruining it for other felds of research also. If these people were that interested in the bigger picture they would respect the collection laws of the given country they plan to collect from. 

I mean, how peeved would you be if someone came to the UK and collected a number of atypus affinins_, _dolomedes fimbriatus or that ultra rare eresus sp. without the proper permission, I know I would not be very happy about it.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

GRB said:


> Not really much else you can do at the end of the supply chain though.
> 
> I mean, it might be obvious when things like that Oligoxystere sp. came through recently (from Brazil you say? Legal you say? Whats that about permits? Oh yeah I had whatever one they issue :whistling2 but if you get someone selling slings or such you pretty much end up simply accepting it if they say they were responsibly sourced.


Oh I totally agree. I wasn't mocking the guy at all...ok just a little in a friendy way off course, but I think there are ways that can help when choosing the spider you are about to buy, like the state of its condition, where the spider comes from in the world ie is the country close to exports, How big it is and other common sence things. Off course also not fool proof but with tedious questions you can then get a good idea if the seller is bs ing or not.


----------



## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

well from what I can gather the show is on, anyone have any details on how it went in court today... I would think maybe good if the show goes on :2thumb:


----------



## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

Dr3d said:


> well from what I can gather the show is on, anyone have any details on how it went in court today... I would think maybe good if the show goes on :2thumb:


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...-ihs-breeders-meeting-statement-facts-45.html


----------



## _emmie_x_ (Aug 7, 2010)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/reptile-shows-breeder-meetings/859330-ihs-show.html


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Yes, and it's an important win, I somehow got though all 40+ pages of nail biteing before the court outcome appeared.


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

nice one Cyril


----------



## Tarantulaguy01 (Mar 31, 2012)

fantastic news see u all there


----------



## Buzzlightyear (May 28, 2011)

Im going and taking about 10 others with me ,

Doncaster was my first show i went too last year and it was amazing ,hopefully get some more T's aswell .

A great day out .

Regards,

Buzz.


----------



## JK3ITH °_• (Aug 3, 2011)

see...all they needed was a brick to the face.


----------



## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

So are sales still going ahead at the show? The APA are lording it up on facebook that they court has still blocked any sales?


----------



## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

I think they got hacked lol


----------



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

selina20 said:


> I think they got hacked lol
> 
> image


 

:flrt::flrt::flrt: even better than the one I got (saved for future referecnce)


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

if only i could get my body to doncaster - we shold be turning up in droves with f u apa banners... maybe we should get some fu apa merchandise going haha get on it jamie!! :lol2:


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

I just got banned for saying 'I hope all your members are vegans and wear hessian sacks'  :lol2:


----------



## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> nice one Cyril


Nice one son,nice one Cyril lets have another one ......... I'll get me coat a Ralphy Coates :lol2:...................slopes off


----------



## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Remember they can get your details off facebook. All they have todo is google your name to get your address.


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

selina20 said:


> I think they got hacked lol
> 
> image


Haha, I meverf noticed them reply to me, I got banned to quickly lol
:2thumb:


----------



## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Tarron said:


> Haha, I meverf noticed them reply to me, I got banned to quickly lol
> :2thumb:


Haha it was whoever hacked them that replied to you hahaha. I luckily got a screen print sent to me before they deleted it XD


----------



## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

Mmm wonder who hacked there ass :Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## WesternBlueTongue (Feb 12, 2012)

Just saw this on facebook, they are thinking about taking them to the donny show lol...


----------



## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

WesternBlueTongue said:


> Just saw this on facebook, they are thinking about taking them to the donny show lol...
> 
> image


now that is a Class Glass, will they be selling them at all do you know lol, I will get one of my friends to grab me one....


----------



## squishyscott (Sep 17, 2011)

WesternBlueTongue said:


> Just saw this on facebook, they are thinking about taking them to the donny show lol...
> 
> image


Will Definately be buying one :no1:


----------



## WesternBlueTongue (Feb 12, 2012)

Dr3d said:


> now that is a Class Glass, will they be selling them at all do you know lol, I will get one of my friends to grab me one....


 "I am trying to get them to sell for £5 so £4.50 goes to the FBH for the work they are doing"

Going to a good cause too. Seems like they are trying to get some available.

http://www.facebook.com/reptilehotel


----------



## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

WesternBlueTongue said:


> "I am trying to get them to sell for £5 so £4.50 goes to the FBH for the work they are doing"
> 
> Going to a good cause too. Seems like they are trying to get some available.
> 
> The Reptile Hotel - Pet shop - Birtley, United Kingdom | Facebook


im not on facebook but will ask a friend to look out for them


----------



## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

i am getting quite wound up reading what the APA are stating ... i am only 16 and yet i see the flaws in most of their statements ... like the video on their facebook page that shows how the animals are stored for the show like in cricket boxes ... what i think they fail to realize is that it is no different to taking your cat to the vets in a cat box ...

i hope the show is on tomorrow ... i cant imagine they will cancel it because of the popularity of the show... and if they do they will have a lot of angry individuals who are in posession of some rather nasty pets (the dwa people ) :lol2:


----------



## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

oh great they deleted my comment fantastic ... and in responce to that i reported them to facebook for misinterpretation of information and violating my freedom of speech... i meerly stated on the video what i put previously ... it seems that APA only want comments that are 100% with them ..

the address for APA is only in brighton and the full address is on their website surely if we send a lot of letters basically saying :censor: off then we may get somewhere ... either that or we all drive down if its canceled and shit on their doorstep! :lol2:


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

deleting antithetical comments is a full time job for the apa - but i think theres no need just now they lost their battle, and the precedent all but ends the war..


----------



## MaskFac3 (Dec 2, 2011)

gambitgareth said:


> deleting antithetical comments is a full time job for the apa - but i think theres no need just now they lost their battle, and the precedent all but ends the war..


I agree I posted a comment that was reasonable and it has been removed 

My comment: I understand you are trying to protect animals but without this trade many animals would become extinct anyway I don't believe in masses of wc animals being ripped from their homes but stopping this show and trade is wrong these animals are cared for properly and you will cause the animals to have a lower degree of care because their keepers will have to go underground with them surely you realise that you will never be able to get rid of this hobby only make the degree of care the animals currently in captivity a lot lower. Please don't take offense at this but you obviously don't know what you are talking about and you people were probably deprived of keeping a pet while you were younger. This is a well reasoned argument please don't delete it, that would just prove that you are petty and aren't willing to take any argument against your 'cause'.


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

thing is *not that i have been spying any* their supporters keep cats and dogs :/


----------



## bbav (Oct 17, 2007)

gambitgareth said:


> thing is *not that i have been spying any* their supporters keep cats and dogs :/


And guinea pigs


----------



## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

the point is that they support animal keeping.. theres no holistic truth here its all fancy - they arent lobbying against prisons or fighting against eugenics... its just a mish mash - they say they use expert opinions but it seems that when experts try to talk to them they either leave a critically invalid argument or simply ban you from commenting - (although they cant ban you from twitter as my pal pointed out)


----------



## Tarantulaguy01 (Mar 31, 2012)

at the end of the,day the APA are so far up there own bum they have now forgot how to act like normal people splashing lies on facebook . so APA (as I know your reading this) GET A GRIP YOU TOSSERS AND DO 1


----------



## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

Well I'm here  and first in the cue for members :L ahah the turnout looks really good  looks like the APA Jason deterred anyone


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

ginna said:


> Well I'm here  and first in the cue for members :L ahah the turnout looks really good  looks like the APA Jason deterred anyone


Prove it, stand up and shout out! Haha

I'm near to the roll up window, massive buggy next to me, in non members as the wife has only just said I can have money to be a member, no use now! Lol.

Everyone donating in the bucket?


----------



## squishyscott (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm here too near the exo terra stand in blue 'tickle my pickle' Tshirt


----------



## MaskFac3 (Dec 2, 2011)

Hope everyone has a good time. I can't make it cos I've gotta visit my grandad cos its fathers day. Everyone had better post pics of what they got.


----------



## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

Tarron said:


> Prove it, stand up and shout out! Haha
> 
> I'm near to the roll up window, massive buggy next to me, in non members as the wife has only just said I can have money to be a member, no use now! Lol.
> 
> Everyone donating in the bucket?




Was the smaller ginger next to the outragously loud bigger ginger :L ahahaha


----------



## MaskFac3 (Dec 2, 2011)

Aye, fight and you may die. Run and you'll live -- at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our inverts!!!!!!


----------



## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

squishyscott said:


> I'm here too near the exo terra stand in blue 'tickle my pickle' Tshirt


:lol2:


----------



## ginna (Jun 2, 2009)

what did that person shout about 20 minutes into the show ? was someone fighting ?


----------



## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Tarron said:


> What I find upsetting is, that if the APA were to change thier stance, they could be a massive ally to the reptile keeping community.
> 
> We could work together to prevent illegal trafficking, we could set up, with thier aid, conservation projects to help keep animals from extinction.
> 
> all they would need to do is get rid of Elaine Tolland, and have a mild change of stance.


Tarron, I'm afraid it is not that simple. You need to understand the mindset of the anti. Yes they may love animals, but they won't ever see your point of view. They won't even enter into discsussions with people like yourself.

You will not educate an anti, nor will you ever change their mind. 

APA is bigger than Elaine Tolland. If she dropped dead tomorrow her cronies would in all probablility, rally around and be stronger than ever. There are five trustees involved with the two APA organisations and no one knows how many others.

But Warwick, Steedman and Arena are possibly a bigger threat. Toland is very active politically but she has no scientific background. The others may have some very questionable lettering after their name, but the reality is, those who make the decisions to allow shows or not have been duped into taking them seriously.

The right to pursue our hobby will be fought in Europe as I've said before. The only people who are fighting at the moment from a legal perspective are the IHS / FBH and the new EU ARK. Keepers should all join the IHS so they can be kept up to speed. Remember that it was the IHS who paid the legal bill allowing the Doncaster show to continue. So joining is a valid way for everyone to contribute to the battle of keeping shows going.

I wonder how many of you have seen this :-

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/ihs-doncaster/861963-news-story-re-doncaster-ihs.html

Please take time to write a sensible message to the mayor of Doncaster educating him.


----------



## G.R/Trooper (Feb 20, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> I wonder how many APA members have swatted a fly or squished a spider in the bath tub....


I wonder how many have actually been involved in the hobby / trade with the exception of a Beared Dragon, Leopard Gecko, or Corn Snake.


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

all they are is sad people who will say anything to get there way they are all the same that goes for RSPCA and RSPB to i wont what i think of them


----------



## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

G.R/Trooper said:


> I wonder how many have actually been involved in the hobby / trade with the exception of a Beared Dragon, Leopard Gecko, or Corn Snake.


Very few I would have thought, and of those that did they may have done so back in the dark ages of exotics, such as CW.


----------



## G.R/Trooper (Feb 20, 2011)

Oderus said:


> Very few I would have thought, and of those that did they may have done so back in the dark ages of exotics, such as CW.


Unfortunatly we don't help ourselves in this hobby. They need only see this forum to witness the rivalry amongst the few and use it as their strength. If we are ever going to remove the threat of the APA and similar organisations then the first step is not fight back at them, but stop fighting one another.


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

G.R/Trooper said:


> Unfortunatly we don't help ourselves in this hobby. They need only see this forum to witness the rivalry amongst the few and use it as their strength. If we are ever going to remove the threat of the APA and similar organisations then the first step is not fight back at them, but stop fighting one another.


People often mention this and I agree in principle. 

I do however think we also need to keep standards high and should not be afraid to 'cut out' people who are a cancer to the reputation of the good hobbyist. These people are the same foks that get banded as "typical keepers" and it is not fair - they are not, and we should distance ourselves from these people who are unwilling to learn and improve husbandry. I'd rather see people realise there are 2 camps of keepers with differing standards than band us all together for the sake of unity. 

We all know folk who fall into the "I keep x because it makes me look hard" category, and I personally don't want to be associated with them.


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

GRB said:


> People often mention this and I agree in principle.
> 
> I do however think we also need to keep standards high and should not be afraid to 'cut out' people who are a cancer to the reputation of the good hobbyist. These people are the same foks that get banded as "typical keepers" and it is not fair - they are not, and we should distance ourselves from these people who are unwilling to learn and improve husbandry. I'd rather see people realise there are 2 camps of keepers with differing standards than band us all together for the sake of unity.
> 
> We all know folk who fall into the "I keep x because it makes me look hard" category, and I personally don't want to be associated with them.


I completely agree with this statement. It should be the responsibility of everyone to ensure the hobby is kept clean, and anyone breaking the rules, mistreating/abusing/neglecting animals should be reported appropriately. Sometimes it can be difficult, for instance a close family member who wont listen to advice, but if its for the betterment of the hobby then it needs to be done

*dont know if betterment is a word, but you get the picture.



G.R/Trooper said:


> Unfortunatly we don't help ourselves in this hobby. They need only see this forum to witness the rivalry amongst the few and use it as their strength. If we are ever going to remove the threat of the APA and similar organisations then the first step is not fight back at them, but stop fighting one another.


Whilst I understand the sentiment you are trying to get across, I dont see 'in-fighting' as all that bad, so long as its constructive and mature. debating different methods on husbandry, diets etc is very useful. Its when it turns petty that we as a hobby need to step in and say, stop!
For instance, I was involved in a heated debate with a few other members only yesterday. however, we managed to come to an agreement and work out our differences, and will hopefully meet up at donny for a chat.


----------



## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

It's all well and good suggesting that we stop the infighting....however, when you consider the idiots portayed on 'Essex Jungle'........they do the hobby more damage than any of the infighting on forums.


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

My comment mainly arose from reading "Pet Hate", that article that Elaine Toland, Clifford Warrick and that other dude wrote in _TheBiologist. 

_They attack the weak points of the hobby and ignore the strengths, and by banding together we send out the message that we accept those points as "the norm". Which of course, we don't. 

The real sad part of that article is that it portrays all of us using the worst denominators, and paints a picture that we are content with the situation. It doesn't ever mention repeated efforts to work alongside the APA to better import regulations, etc. It doesn't mention outcry regarding smugglers (although the recent Sven incident does make me wonder if I am in the minority for that particular part) or disdain pointed at those who are not doing enough for their animals. 

So with that in mind, a unified front would probably do more damage than good if we didn't first amputate the 'bad limbs'...


----------



## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

GRB said:


> My comment mainly arose from reading "Pet Hate", that article that Elaine Toland, Clifford Warrick and that other dude wrote in _TheBiologist. _
> 
> They attack the weak points of the hobby and ignore the strengths, and by banding together we send out the message that we accept those points as "the norm". Which of course, we don't.
> 
> ...


How would you propose to excise those who harm the hobby, when, by their actions, it's clear that they don't accept they are a bad advertisement for reptile keeping. They most likely don't subscribe to forums and, generally they lack the insight and intelligence to change, otherwise they wouldn't be parading around with large snakes round their necks in public, wouldn't be taking their snakes on show on public transport, and wouldn't be seen within a mile of exploitative TV programs


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

GRB said:


> My comment mainly arose from reading "Pet Hate", that article that Elaine Toland, Clifford Warrick and that other dude wrote in _TheBiologist. _
> 
> They attack the weak points of the hobby and ignore the strengths, and by banding together we send out the message that we accept those points as "the norm". Which of course, we don't.
> 
> ...


I don't subscribe to 'The Biologist' so haven't had the chance to see that article. i suppose you cant get a copy of it unless you subscribe then?

Unfortunately, when attacking anything, the obvious place is to go for the worst sector of the group and publically humiliate them. Whether or not we 'amputate the bad limbs', the fact is they will still be there, we cant physically take thier pets away without the authorities being involved. and whilst they are there, the general public will always group us together.

The only way I could think to get around it, would be positive documentarys, not the channel 4 or channel 5 crud that comes out at the moment. We need a documentary showing how real keepers look after thier animals.

At BEMA, we were recently contacted by the natural history unit of the BBC to try and help locate some animals to be used in close up shots, as part of a documentary currently in production. I am hoping by helping in a positive way, we will be able to keep the BBC sweet with us, so they could have our backs in the future. some celebrities have also said they support our trade, and are thankful for what we, as a community, can do. It's these avenues, of public faces and trusted people, that will one day be make or break for us, with regards public opinion.


(*for obvious reasons, I wont be naming the documentary or 'celebrities', as i dont want to say anything out of turn)


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> How would you propose to excise those who harm the hobby, when, by their actions, it's clear that they don't accept they are a bad advertisement for reptile keeping. They most likely don't subscribe to forums and, generally they lack the insight and intelligence to change, otherwise they wouldn't be parading around with large snakes round their necks in public, wouldn't be taking their snakes on show on public transport, and wouldn't be seen within a mile of exploitative TV programs


Well, I suppose we need to make it more obvious these are not 'true hobbyists' in the first instance. 

The second is that we need people who are involved in hobby issues to start publishing where it hurts - there's no point in Andrew Smith debating the relative influence of hobby collectors vs tourist tat in the BTS magazine, as everyone reading that will already be aware of that no doubt. 
It'll be hard to take the APA seriously if they are called out in rigourous journals - just now they are publishing in newsletters and small 'chatty' journals and calling it science. I'd like to see them enter the debate with some real names in conservation science and see how far they got before being demolished.

I view them as being incredibly short sighted. The general public cares not about animals it doesnt like and without public support conservation effort is very limited in most cases.

I'm not suggesting the poster child approach (pandas, etc) is correct but at least it works. 

With animals generally reviled, such as spiders, imho the best method of getting people to care about them it to make them interact with them. If someone keeping a G.rosea makes them care about all tarantulas then it will likely make them more interested in actions that may reduce their number. If they care about tarantulas they might eventually care about spiders in general. Then arthropods, then x etc. 

Even a callous approach where you assume hobbyists are only interested in what species they can horde is going to net conservation benefit if those same people 'care' about conservation of these species and thus make their voices heard if a negative action is proposed. 

'Extinction of experience' (of nature) is hardly a new idea and that the APA totally ignores it is just ignorance because it would weaken their stance.


----------



## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Sensible keepers, who keep their animals in tip top condition and don't come across as idiotic chavs or 'special' don't make good TV unfortunately.....sensible shows presenting balanced, well thought out points of view and showing a minority section in a positive light won't make it past a producer's desk. Pitch it as 'hey we've got all these nutters keeping God-knows-what in their 2 bed terrace and taking a huge python down the local pub....how about we make a program showing everyone what retards they are?' and it'd get snapped up in an instant! 'Essex Jungle' was possibly the worst portayal of reptile keeping ever shown.


----------

