# UVB and Amphibians... Theory and Musings



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

We're on the cusp of a change. 
It seems that at least here hobbyists have begun to open up to the idea that Amphibians could indeed utilise UVB and that they may infact benefit from exposure to it.
This is going to be a rambling exploration 

First things first.
Amphibians like all vertebrates require Calcium in their bodies in sufficient amounts to be able to function optimally and thrive. Calcium is needed for not only bone density but also functions within the muscles, blood, nervous system, organs and exchanges on a cellular level.
*Lack of Calcium* is much more than just softer bones. 
- The efficiency of nerves and the nervous system is compromised as the body tries to ration out the Calcium it does have (_Hence twitching toes/legs or spasms). _
- The ability for muscles to be controlled is damaged, (_prolapses can be a direct result as the cloacal sphincter muscles cannot be maintained_).
- Hormonal regulation and/or homeostasis may be impaired, the animal may lose it's ability to maintain it's bodily balance or _fail to breed despite appearing in good health outwardly as a deficiency renders it infertile_ or unable to respond to breeding cues. If the animal is able to breed it's offspring may be damaged from conception as a result of health problems in the adult animals.
- Then the bones themselves, you'd be suprised _to know how many fractures an otherwise normal looking and mobile amphibian can have_. This may leave the animal in constant pain, or it may impair their ability to feed and breed in such a minor way that it is never questioned or suspected.


Often the major argument amongst hobbyists to evidence "Good health" is that animals have bred...
Unfortunately for many species of animals (and indeed plants) reproduction may often be the last ditch effort to ensure genes are passed on despite the health of the animal being dire and the living conditions almost unbearable. 
If you could not get these animals to breed in captivity where competition is minimal, parasitism is reduced, predation is non-existant and food is abundant, THEN you'd really have something to worry about!
Breeding in captivity is not an indication of health nor 'happiness' in our animals. Sorry!


Amphibians, like all vertebrates, require *Vitamin D3* in their bodies in order to utilise dietary Calcium, I won't go into the D3 pathway and specifically how it is used by the body to regulate calcium uptake, you can read about that here;
UV Lighting for Reptiles: Vitamin D synthesis in Ultraviolet Light

So, knowing this we are faced with two options which are the crux of this issue. Outlining them I hope to make it clear why UVB exposure is the safest, most logical and feasible option.


*Dietary supplements*.
Vitamin D3 can be absorbed by the body _via the gut, however, this route of uptake is unregulated and allows for overdose_ and the resulting bodily imbalance.
The majority of amphibian keepers currently rely on multivitamin supplements to fulfill this role (although there are some who genuinely don't think it is needed for these animals!?!? and those who never use supplements).
Supplements come in little plastic pots that most people keep near their vivaria or in the cupboards below, people buy in bulk to save money so may have tubs stored at room temperature and above for 6-12 or more months... Vitamins are the entire purpose of our use of multivitamins instead of plain calcium (which as a pure mineral does not degrade or denature in a pot).
So then, we have a clear problem if we know that _vitamins such as D3 are incredible fragile compounds, degraded or denatured by moisture, higher temperatures and exposure to atmospheric air. _A tub of Nutrobal will be next to pointless after 6 months sat next to your viv and after 6 months worth of opening and closing, letting in moist atmospheric air...
So on one hand this method has the potential for overdose but also the potential to be completely pointless if the product is not stored and used appropriately, but, there is no way of the average hobbyist knowing when or how fast this occurs...


*UVB exposure*
The joy of opting for UVB exposure rather than plain supplements is that not only can you actually buy a meter to _measure the exact level you are using and actively check for degradation of your chosen D3 provider, BUT this pathway is self limited within the skin of the animal!!!_

Any Herptile in our care, amphibian or not, should be provided with a suitable environment in captivity this should include appropriate refugia - burrows/hiding spots, shade, foliage, caves, whatever. It should also include a full day/night cycle, the overall health of captive animals, their ability to breed and their hormonal balance is affected by their ability to experience Circadian Rhythms. (ALL animals whether nocturnal, diurnal or crepuscular). We should strive to provide a naturalistic light cycle including beneficial UVB (and UVA) exposure and we should design our vivaria to accomodate this.

Many reluctant keepers use the argument of;
"But they're nocturnal they would never be exposed to it!?!"
Go to the wild and see it for yourself  These animals sleep in the relative open even if they are truly nocturnal, _your average treefrog sleeps on leaves or treetrunks exposed directly or indirectly (via reflection) to UVB._

I can tell you that amphibians, like lizards for instance, can be more or less demanding in terms of UVB. Some species can be exposed to massive levels of UVB on a daily basis and still show room for improvement in their calcium levels (e.g: Canopy dwelling treefrog species), others can be exposed to short blasts of high UVB exposure once in a blue moon and have good calcium levels (e.g: Arid environment burrowing sps.)
There is clearly a difference in tolerance to UVB exposure (meaning their skin may have greater resistance) and actual physical levels needed (meaning they may require a much greater overall exposure than other species to achieve the same level of "health") between individual species.


Common sense must apply, vivariums may be constructed to provide naturalistic levels of exposure and cover as per the individual species.
There is no single answer and there never will be.

Just consider this, I have seen animals with no visible skeleton jumping around like there is no tomorrow and breeding. This does not mean that it is acceptable for these animals to subsist, to live under sub-lethal stresses and we will know about it eventually...
The amphibian hobby does not seem as negative towards WC animals as others, I can think of no species which has yet been bred consistently for a number of generations with no injection of WC genes at some point. 
I can tell you that damage to offspring can be seen in the shorterm resulting directly from poorly kept adult stock, but no one is looking for it.

Poor success in metamorphs is blamed on bad water or bad luck. 
1000 Amazonian milk frog eggs can be whittled down to 5 successful metamorphs a year later and people say "oh well that's why they lay so many"... No. They lay so many to get through metamorphosis AND have some survive predation. Juveniles are passed along so people don't get to see where they begin to fail to thrive, or breed.

_Frogs that look perfectly healthy can be walking around with a shattered pelvis (I've seen it...)_ and amplexing females nightly as they are healthy breeding animals!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Due to the fact my personal observations are made as part of current research, I can only offer them as opinion.

I cannot include a list of my references nor details of how we are quantifying the effects of UVB on amphibians.

I know for some people that will mean it is all just speculation and that's fine 
I was asked to write this now, I had been waiting until such time as I could offer it with a link to a new publication to back it up, as I can't it's your choice as the reader, take it or leave it 

Cheers
Lotte***


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

:no1:

Fantastic.

Sticky that badboy.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Well done.
I didn't know you could overdose your animals with calcium though!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

ipreferaflan said:


> Well done.
> I didn't know you could overdose your animals with calcium though!


No, it said you can overdose on vitamin D3! Which in turn might result in an over-uptake of calcium.

Nowt's ever simple!  lol


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> No, it said you can overdose on vitamin D3! Which in turn might result in an over-uptake of calcium.
> 
> Nowt's ever simple!  lol


Oh bloomin' 'eck.


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## Gaz_dbd (Apr 30, 2009)

great advice, in a way it goes against their 5 freedoms, the idea of natural behaviour, in nature they will come into contact with the sun, so why should we stop them in captivity?


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

well now im worried, I have all my frogs under UV bulbs the two suppliments I use once a week are calcium+d3 and nutrobal (other week I use repton) so am i over doing the d3? I should probably just get a calcium only dust now right?


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

We use Nutrobal on every feed here... For Dendrobatids that means daily.

It's another avenue that needs looking at to be honest, figuring out where the balance between supplements and UVB should lie. 
The main problem is simply not knowing how much of the original contents of your pot of multivits remains in there and how fast it degrades.
To be honest my personal opinion on it, is that it probably degrades very fast and therefore the risk of overdose only lasts for a very short time with a brand new pot. That I have used it on every feed for many types of animal and never seen a single vitamin overdose (but I have seen animals that are still deficient) leads me to feel that the chances of this problem are very slim when the products are used normally.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Great advice, I look forward to reading the research when it is purchased. I have heard from a few PDF keepers that they give their frogs a blast of UV once a month, what are your views on this.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I think I'll collect links to other relevant discussions in here 


- Lighting is not always as simple as one being a higher %, you get what you pay for (usually!!!) 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/amphibians/436837-cheap-uvb-lights.html

- Amphibians know what they need better than we do, here's some evidence!
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/amphibians/434209-whites-under-uv-strip-day.html#post5336462


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

that is absolutely brilliant and i totaly agree,with everything you said as myself i keep and breed poison dartfrogs and most allready have u.v compacts on them and i'm working on the rest,and through my 11 years exsperience i can honestly say that it improves there cordination,appetite,breeding readiness,healthyness of tadpoles..no spindly leg ever! and colour's for example a pale orange Oophaga pumilio nancy turned bright red over the corse of 1 month,and i have also known for a long time that to much vitamins can overdose as the frogs can't metabolize all of it and can cause damage to intestal tract and liver..plus certain plants need it especialy orchids to remain compact and produce fully coloured flowers,also sometimes a good cue is with the animal being nocturnal or dirunal is that a lot of animal species have dark patches on there skin so as to absorb the u.v rays faster say as in a nocturnal animal that comes out at dusk..and anyway out side everything's exsposed to the sun at a time so are exsposed to u.v rays:no1:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

An interesting read saedcantas however I must aproach the nocturnal animals with an opn mind, while I am a beleiver most animals plants e.t.c benefit from some part of UV/A and UV/B is it the case with a gecko for e.g. to not live a healthy life without U.V 

Not wishing to argue because there are some interesting points there and there are still many wonders within the hobby that need exploring and providing as naturalistic setup as possible in my view is of vital importance.

I am sure amphibians would benefit from UV sources in the wild however slight or short this might be and am sure it would benefit them in some way.
What has interested me also is the possibility of an overdose of vitmain d3 synthesis.. 

What kind of things would show this and how would it affect an amphibian for e.g. as I am sure in there natural enviroments they would lurk out of sight into forest floors and trees to avoid over dosing and in some cases crisping to death lol, and nature takes the 8 12 hour on its own... some places of the world are dark e.t.c and even some wild animals live within caves for the most part of there lives and I have even herd because of this they begin to loose there colours if there is a good food supply there is really no need to move around... anywho I am now just yapping.

So how long would you leave the uv on for in captivity 3-4 hours a day or even an hour for ---noctunal species haha or what about natural light filterd in through a window? would you agree that they can still benefit from day cycles that way.

There is much to be explored I am not making digs I would be interested in some of your views though.
And you must have good fun with what it is you do lol 

Thanks Dixon: victory:


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> An interesting read saedcantas however I must aproach the nocturnal animals with an opn mind, while I am a beleiver most animals plants e.t.c benefit from some part of UV/A and UV/B is it the case with a gecko for e.g. to not live a healthy life without U.V
> 
> Not wishing to argue because there are some interesting points there and there are still many wonders within the hobby that need exploring and providing as naturalistic setup as possible in my view is of vital importance.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments Dixon, to be honest I think the answers to some of your questions were in the original article, might be worth giving it another read (particularly regarding overdose of D3 synthesis which is not physically possible, as outlined in the article.)

Regarding 'nocturnal' geckos and UV exposure, this paper is a great read, the abstract says it all  ;
http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/vitamin-d-house-geckos-texas-spiny.pdf

We use UVB tubes/bulbs at normal photoperiods, 12hrs standard and varied across the year.

I'm currently breeding nocturnal geckos for release to the wild in March, I'll post up the pics of what kind of UV levels they deliberately expose themselves to in the wild, once i'm out there working


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Thanks for your comments Dixon, to be honest I think the answers to some of your questions were in the original article, might be worth giving it another read (particularly regarding overdose of D3 synthesis which is not physically possible, as outlined in the article.)
> 
> Regarding 'nocturnal' geckos and UV exposure, this paper is a great read, the abstract says it all  ;
> http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/vitamin-d-house-geckos-texas-spiny.pdf
> ...


Okay will do thanks for the link 
Should enjoy having a good read through that: probs going to take a while lol.
I was wandering it would kind of be impossible in the wild to overdose on d3 lol I was just wandering what kind of effects it would have in theory,
and oh that should be an interesting experiment for geckos in the wild p.s I want your job.....:2thumb::lol2:


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

This is such an encouraging thread, the amphib keepers are opening their eyes to proper clinical research and the animals will benefit accordingly, I could if required post my article on lighting planted terrariums from P.R.K a few months ago if you think it may he helpful

I can confirm that as a company Arcadia take professional husbandry and healthcare extremely seriously, we are constantly kept up to date with the newest and most trustworthy research. We also have a vested interest in being the industry best.

I can confirm that proper amphib lighting is being looked sensibly at and we hope to help all keepers accordingly.

Please feel free to post any questions to me public or p.m and I will do my best to help.


I just wish the snake, Leo, and crestie keepers were all so open minded to scientific fact as you guys.

Jinn courteney-smith.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> This is such an encouraging thread, the amphib keepers are opening their eyes to proper clinical research and the animals will benefit accordingly, I could if required post my article on lighting planted terrariums from P.R.K a few months ago if you think it may he helpful
> 
> I can confirm that as a company Arcadia take professional husbandry and healthcare extremely seriously, we are constantly kept up to date with the newest and most trustworthy research. We also have a vested interest in being the industry best.
> 
> ...


any read is a good read why not  I dont think this is just the case for amphibs either, I am still open minded about the geckos but I am willling to try it, and observe there behavior myself.
I also look forward to the ops feild study which will be interesting in regards to the geckos, I have really only ever owned one frog but wouldnt mind a few, I have seen some wonderful setups and it would look really good in our sitting room if I was to fund a something like that, anywho please do post the link: victory:

Dixon


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Arcadiajohn said:


> This is such an encouraging thread, the amphib keepers are opening their eyes to proper clinical research and the animals will benefit accordingly, I could if required post my article on lighting planted terrariums from P.R.K a few months ago if you think it may he helpful
> 
> I can confirm that as a company Arcadia take professional husbandry and healthcare extremely seriously, we are constantly kept up to date with the newest and most trustworthy research. We also have a vested interest in being the industry best.
> 
> ...


Hi John, 
I missed this article as I didn't buy that months edition of PRK, are you able to post here or advise which monthvthis article was printed so I can get a back issue?

Many thanks
Ben


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hello, yes it was november 2010, I will be revisiting this feature this year with new tech and live study info, be prepared for Arcadia to lead the world on amphib and invert lighting firm the end of this year!

John courteney-smith. Arcadia products.


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Brilliant, thanks John, going to order a back issue now


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

A cynical take might be that Arcadia are being out-competed in their homeland of aquatics lamps so have decided to move into the fast growing "exotics" market big-time.

Everyone remembers childhood games of not stepping on cracks? Same fears come to mind when asking anything about anything on this gold-rush.

Happily I'm just raving again and its all gibberish.

Kiss me Hardy


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sandsifter said:


> A cynical take might be that Arcadia are being out-competed in their homeland of aquatics lamps so have decided to move into the fast growing "exotics" market big-time.
> 
> Everyone remembers childhood games of not stepping on cracks? Same fears come to mind when asking anything about anything on this gold-rush.
> 
> ...


Wash your mouth out with soap! Arcadia are the new Messiah!:whistling2:


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Sandsifter said:


> A cynical take might be that Arcadia are being out-competed in their homeland of aquatics lamps so have decided to move into the fast growing "exotics" market big-time.
> 
> Everyone remembers childhood games of not stepping on cracks? Same fears come to mind when asking anything about anything on this gold-rush.
> 
> ...


Whether you like John's posts or the business motivation, the fact that Arcadia are supplying the most reliable and highest quality UVB lamps at the moment is undeniable.

(Using T5's and MVB's in a Zoological setting)


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

Sandsifter said:


> A cynical take might be that Arcadia are being out-competed in their homeland of aquatics lamps so have decided to move into the fast growing "exotics" market big-time.
> 
> Everyone remembers childhood games of not stepping on cracks? Same fears come to mind when asking anything about anything on this gold-rush.
> 
> ...



*no* brand is better than arcadia, imo arcadia t5's should be the only one people are alowed to use.


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

<Hope someone reads this as I didn't think it warranted a thread of its own>

Was just about to order the canopy & bulbs for my new treefrog tank (45x45x60 exo bought prematurely... its HUGE for two diddly 1" frogs!!)
when I had a sudden thought....

Does UV 'stack' ???

ie would 2 x 26w 5% compacts give the same as a 10%

A stupid question i'm sure (especially as I can't find it or an answer online) but still.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I am sure that John will correct me if I am wrong, but no it wont 'stack', it will however provide the 5% UV over an increased area. If you need 10% you need to use a 10%. This is one of those rare times though when ArcadiaJohn can give a much more accurate answer. lol

As to Arcadia. Their UV tubes I consider the best, however their other tubes have much less of a lead. For example the ZooMed UltraSun is as good as the Arcadia Freshwater Pro, but cheaper.

Ade


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

AS above UV does not stack but you will provide UV over a larger area. 

Jay


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi,

yes the info is 100% correct.

UV does not incease or mulitply but the addition of other lamps if placed correctly increases the footprint of the chosen emission zone.

We are heavily reccomending the use or the light and shade method and you will see much much more from us about this in the next few months. This is simply providing a wild UV index over a targeted section of the viv and balancing this high emission zone with usable shade. In large vivaria we see value in the use of differing % UVB lamps. i.e if the viv is big enough using a 12% lamp over a dedicated basking zone the letting this drop off into partial emission with the use of a 6% lamp and then letting that drop off into full shade.

For us the animals ability to self regualte is paramount. Millions of years of development have allowed wild frogs to choose the powers that they live in and use in the wild. It makes sense that the correct way of providing this energy from light in captivity is to replicate this as best we can.

so does using a 12% and a 6% give you and area of 18%? 100% not. you just have blended emission over a wider area.

and Ade, we just put our prices of T5 lamps down by up to 28% so hopefully our offering is more palatable now 

good luck

john


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

That's really good news on the price reduction John, indeed it is. 

Hmmm, reading what you just posted leads me to musings of my own. Maybe a useful product for folks with vivs would be a 3 tube luminaire model, with 1 long none UV tube (or even high power LEDs) and 2 shorter UV tubes with different outputs (eg. 1 6% and 1 12%), with a canopy like this you could create 3 zones of varying UV intensity including 0%, in addition to the light and shade model. I reckon I'd be interested for sure, doing the same with controllers and reflectors would just lead to a spaghetti of cables and needing too many sockets. lol

Ade


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

sounds like a plan Ade,

john


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> That's really good news on the price reduction John, indeed it is.
> 
> Hmmm, reading what you just posted leads me to musings of my own. Maybe a useful product for folks with vivs would be a 3 tube luminaire model, with 1 long none UV tube (or even high power LEDs) and 2 shorter UV tubes with different outputs (eg. 1 6% and 1 12%), with a canopy like this you could create 3 zones of varying UV intensity including 0%, in addition to the light and shade model. I reckon I'd be interested for sure, doing the same with controllers and reflectors would just lead to a spaghetti of cables and needing too many sockets. lol
> 
> Ade


What would be great is if all thre where also on timers so that you could create a sun rise, midday and sunset effect!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

fatlad69 said:


> What would be great is if all thre where also on timers so that you could create a sun rise, midday and sunset effect!


The problem there is you're heading up the the £1k mark... :lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

fatlad69 said:


> What would be great is if all thre where also on timers so that you could create a sun rise, midday and sunset effect!





Wolfenrook said:


> The problem there is you're heading up the the £1k mark... :lol2:


I've often thought something like that could be fairly easily set up with spots, with the tubes coming on sometime later, once 'day' is in full swing. You could even have a similar set-up for dimming the spots in sequence to denote a cloud passing, just before a 'rain storm'! :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye, ATI actually do a T5HO luminaire with 2 channels and a timer that dims. The problem is that you get 2 tubes, 3 tubes or 5 tubes at once.... lol

The thing for me is, I want LESS cables and plugs in sockets, not more. I reckon though a single unit with 2 UV compacts of different outputs and dimmable LEDs and built in timers (UV 1 on or off, UV 2 on or off and LEDs dimmable) would be pretty good as you could have the LEDs handle the sunrise and sunset cycle, with the UVs coming on for a mid day burst.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Totally agree. Keep it simple with the UV coming on one at a time and do the fancy stuff with the LEDs. As long as it came in around £200 mark I think people would buy it. 

Ade I do agree about the cables I hate the spaghetti at the back of my viv. Timer for the lights, timer for the misting system , cables for heat mats, pumps etc. I wish someone did a complete control box all the cables and timers could sit in with one lead out to the socket.

Adam


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

I think Ade has raised a very valid point here. It's ok to keep bumping out the technology but the peripherals also needs looking at. Some of my viv banks and daisy chains are ridiculous. Spaghetti junction to say the least. Slightly concerned at times due to fire risks and overloading. It's great to have such compelling and accurate lighting these days however there needs to be *more done in terms of how these lights get used*. OK, there's probably a long way to go yet as to fully understand how these animals utilise UV but 'come-on'... give us a product to play with! Give us an out of the box solution to put these vastly improved light sources through their paces. Just my two pennies worth!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I asked this on a separate thread, but got no feedback; has anyone tried the new Zoomed T5s?


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> I asked this on a separate thread, but got no feedback; has anyone tried the new Zoomed T5s?


Ade uses the zoomed ultrasun and says his plant growth is great. I have just ordered one so will see how they go. Do know what the UV bulbs are like.

Adam


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> sounds like a plan Ade,
> 
> john


John a very simple question really (ha maybe its just me being simplistic and the Q is more than thus),but reading a Qand A you answered plus another friend's thoughts and Ade above have prompted this.

Does a 12% uvb(arcadia) bulb over optiwhite and a viv height of betwixt 40and 60cm cms,pose any potential hazards to a dart? 

Maybe the 12% wouldn't be on all day and naturally shade is there, for self regulation.Plus i see the logic behind a small bulb of higher intensity,replicating a shaft of sunlight. I suppose I'm questing for the balance between not hampering the frogs behaviour,with too much uvb and then again giving the guys enough,so i'm able to see behavioural shifts.As of yet possibly I'm only seeing this in oophgaga(very early days yet for these ),nothing is yet definitive for me other than the want to give our frogs the best, which must include uvb. 

John I'm beyond sure if i put too much light over a frog like auratus then without providing overhead cover,in the form of plants wood etc then that frog will not behave naturally,but i still think they will utilise uvb. It's that juxtaposition betwixt tiny vivs bright lights and the right quantity of uvb for a given species, that is so difficult to ascertain,even when i can find a uvb index for a given area/species.
Dare i say could you shed some erm light:blush: on this for me, Damn that's awful,
I'll see myself out
best 

Stu 


ps for others reading this said "tiny" viv may well have a 60cm square foot print but only be 40cm high,tis still tiny in the big scheme


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> I think Ade has raised a very valid point here. It's ok to keep bumping out the technology but the peripherals also needs looking at. Some of my viv banks and daisy chains are ridiculous. Spaghetti junction to say the least. Slightly concerned at times due to fire risks and overloading. It's great to have such compelling and accurate lighting these days however there needs to be *more done in terms of how these lights get used*. OK, there's probably a long way to go yet as to fully understand how these animals utilise UV but 'come-on'... give us a product to play with! Give us an out of the box solution to put these vastly improved light sources through their paces. Just my two pennies worth!


James i couldn't agree more,with this and what Ade has brought up.We run a twin system of arcadia T5 uvb 6% bulbs and cheep leds strips. The T5's use the old ent system of chainable bulb holders,there is a massive need for something similar for anyone having several vivs in one place to replace these units. The leds run off one transformer so essentially 12 vivs running off 2 timers,or oneday 18 off 3 timers...ie 3 sockets,but when one of the T5 holders fails i'll be scuppered as they have been discontinued .

I could see the 'mare of too many plugs leads and timers from the outset,putting together an old skool analogue music studio,gives one a unique perception on this!! 

Stu


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi stu,

I am 100% set that a D3+ lamp in a viv of this size going through a glass like that is NOT over provision. But it all depends on the keepers decoration.

We are passionate about the light and shade method! Using plants and caves and shorter lamps than the size of the enclosure to generate leaf scatter patterns and areas of light that the animals can self regulate under.

The frogs are the experts certainly not me! If power gradients are provided they will adapt to the decoration to use them as they would in the wild which is what several million years of natural selection has designed them to.

Arcadia reptile T5s are the most powerful and longest life tube on the market but they still do not replace the actual sun, I think many keepers forget just how powerful the sun is and how little we understand it.

John 






soundstounite said:


> John a very simple question really (ha maybe its just me being simplistic and the Q is more than thus),but reading a Qand A you answered plus another friend's thoughts and Ade above have prompted this.
> 
> Does a 12% uvb(arcadia) bulb over optiwhite and a viv height of betwixt 40and 60cm cms,pose any potential hazards to a dart?
> 
> ...


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Arcadia reptile T5s are the most powerful and longest life tube on the market but they still do not replace the actual sun, I think many keepers forget just how powerful the sun is and how little we understand it.
> 
> John


Especially in the tropics where these frogs originate.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi stu,
> 
> I am 100% set that a D3+ lamp in a viv of this size going through a glass like that is NOT over provision. But it all depends on the keepers decoration.
> 
> ...


Thanks buddy,John is the shortest 12% T5 in your range at present 24watt like i believe is the case with the 6%HO?
best

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Do keep in mind though that where darts are found in nature there is a LOT more vegetation between the ground and open sky too. Many species would need to climb 500 metres or so just to learn what the sun is. 

I can say happily that I have NEVER seen my auratus Ancon Hill go out into light. Giving them UV would be a huge waste of money, they avoid dim normal light even. lol

It's horses for courses. There is no size fixes all option.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> James i couldn't agree more,with this and what Ade has brought up.We run a twin system of arcadia T5 uvb 6% bulbs and cheep leds strips. The T5's use the old ent system of chainable bulb holders,there is a massive need for something similar for anyone having several vivs in one place to replace these units. The leds run off one transformer so essentially 12 vivs running off 2 timers,or oneday 18 off 3 timers...ie 3 sockets,but when one of the T5 holders fails i'll be scuppered as they have been discontinued .
> 
> I could see the 'mare of too many plugs leads and timers from the outset,putting together an old skool analogue music studio,gives one a unique perception on this!!
> 
> Stu


Thank the gods for multiblocks, that's what I say! :lol2:


Wolfenrook said:


> Do keep in mind though that where darts are found in nature there is a LOT more vegetation between the ground and open sky too. Many species would need to climb 500 metres or so just to learn what the sun is.
> 
> I can say happily that I have NEVER seen my auratus Ancon Hill go out into light. Giving them UV would be a huge waste of money, they avoid dim normal light even. lol
> 
> ...


A massively good point- going beyond darts there is probably even more variation between species; my Madagascan burrowing frogs, for example only surface from their deep burrows every few weeks or so, and then only in complete darkness- UV would be pretty much wasted on them, whereas my related painted frogs lounge in the entrances to their relatively more shallow ones and frequently come out for a wander in the evening, before lights out. The FBTs are of course active all day, and the tree and reed frogs often seem to bask- or at least roost in the light.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

This is always going to be open for debate however I stand by the fact that we should utilize the UV technology we have. With that said I moved away from burrowing/dormant species a long time ago :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm just going by the behaviour of my frogs bud. Auratus Ancon Hill HATE light, they go to extreme measures from been out in it. They are, because of this, incredibly shy. Until I moved them from a big viv packed with leaf litter and some wood to a smaller viv packed with plants and wood, and shaded the light tubes over this viv so that there are only spots of light, I never saw them. Now I see them sat in the very shady parts of the viv regularly. Putting a UV on this viv would be a waste of money for the simple reason that the frogs NEVER sit anywhere where light would reach them enough to make it worthwhile.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I'm just going by the behaviour of my frogs bud. Auratus Ancon Hill HATE light, they go to extreme measures from been out in it. They are, because of this, incredibly shy. Until I moved them from a big viv packed with leaf litter and some wood to a smaller viv packed with plants and wood, and shaded the light tubes over this viv so that there are only spots of light, I never saw them. Now I see them sat in the very shady parts of the viv regularly. Putting a UV on this viv would be a waste of money for the simple reason that the frogs NEVER sit anywhere where light would reach them enough to make it worthwhile.
> 
> Ade


ha i don't know whether i should be agreeing or disagreeing here:lol2:
I know exactly what you mean our 2 morphs of auratus care not for light,give then overhead cover /shade you'll see them, a bright viv you have no chance, but i still have that nagging doubt about catching some out in early morning sunshine basking and reports of some morphs doing this in the wild!Naturally folks will argue they are warming up,nought to do with uvb,but it nags at me depriving them of this,what they have access to in the wild. 
I don't think all habitats are equal ,I don't think there is one lighting solution for all,how the hell does one compare a frog that lives on a beach or up a mountain with one of deep cover in a rainforest(just darts let alone the rest),other than the fact that all have the sun as their lighting source and that chucks out this uvb stuff which all MIGHT use to some degree or other .

No answers here,no scientific measurements to denote species/morph specific data, other than an overall uvb index for a morph i have no GPS co ordinates for anyway:bash:.Maybe all we can do is give some a ***** of uvb and believe they will use it when needed and others more,because it looks like they will need more. 
In the big scheme of things a uvb bulb ain't much even the best of 'em and slowly the boffins are teaching us.... proving to us that it IS something worth having, 
tired ramble over

Stu


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Arcadiajohn said:


> This is such an encouraging thread, the amphib keepers are opening their eyes to proper clinical research and the animals will benefit accordingly, I could if required post my article on lighting planted terrariums from P.R.K a few months ago if you think it may he helpful
> 
> I can confirm that as a company Arcadia take professional husbandry and healthcare extremely seriously, we are constantly kept up to date with the newest and most trustworthy research. We also have a vested interest in being the industry best.
> 
> ...


i agree, been a crestie keeper and a phib keeper i think my cresties benifit... one thing is the choice from plastic plants to real plants i have noticed alot more mobility in my cresties with a planted set up then a fake one, i can only put this down to 2 things, 1.they like real plants or 2. durning the day they soak up all the natural light they get from the t5 with d3 light i supply.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

REDDEV1L said:


> Does UV 'stack' ???
> 
> ie would 2 x 26w 5% compacts give the same as a 10%





Spikebrit said:


> AS above UV does not stack but you will provide UV over a larger area.
> 
> Jay





Arcadiajohn said:


> yes the info is 100% correct.
> 
> UV does not incease or mulitply....so does using a 12% and a 6% give you and area of 18%? 100% not. you just have blended emission over a wider area.


First time I've read through this thread - great OP. I have a question about the discussion regarding 'stacking' above, mainly to Arcadiajohn I suppose. I may have misunderstood the original question, or your answer (or both!) but here goes....

By 'stacking' I think of lamps as close as possible to each other (physically), so.... If you have 2x 26W lamps with 5% UVB emission, do you get 10% emission? - no, you don't, as you point out above. But surely you get 5% of a higher number (~52W) where there is overlap? - i.e. more UV exposure to animals that experience emission from both lamps together?

If the lamps are directly adjacent (with overlapping beams) what you would effectively get is something close to 5% of 52W (in the area of overlap) rather than 5% of 26W. So, in terms of % it's the same (blended emission as you say), still 5%, but in terms of moles of photons that the frogs are exposed to there is an effective doubling and surely that's the important point? The benefit/danger to the organism is surely related to the number of photons absorbed, rather than the proportion (%) of the original emission that those photons at UV frequency constitute? Is that right or is my brain broken?! LOL:bash:

If the lamps are at opposite ends of a large viv obviously this does not apply. Just got me wondering and I'm curious now if there's anything peculiar to this type of setup/UV emission/UV absorption by amphibians that means if you have have a doubling of emission in the same area (two lamps rather than one) there is no increase in exposure?

Again, apologies if I have misunderstood!

Nick


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

That's actually pretty sound science I'd say Nick. What you are basically saying is that you are still getting 5% UVB, but it's 5% of a bigger number. An analogy been that 5% of £1 is 5p, where 5% of £100 is £5. Makes sense to me, BUT it wouldn't actually work totally like that, as you never get 100% of the light from the tube into the viv, but yeah seems sound to me. End of the day, if you have 2 39 watt T5HOs you get more light into your tank than using 1 39 watt T5HO, and UVB is still light, just not visible light (to us anyway).

I wouldn't do that though, as you wont have as much control of exposure as with a single lamp, not without investing in expensive meters anyway. Better to spend money on better reflectors to get more of the 5% from the one lamp into the viv. That's just my opinion though, I can't back this particularly.

Just to note, I'm also running an experiment at present with UV and Auratus. 4 Super blues from Stu, and an Arcadia 6% UVB compact over a high basking spot in a viv lit using the light and shade methods. Once the frogs start actually coming out in the day I might actually get some idea of their response to the UV. lol

Ade


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Yeah. It might be the wording of the question that caused confusion, but the answers seem to imply that a frog with two 5% lamps hanging above it would receive the same UV dose as one with a single 5% lamp above it - which is not the case. 

Realise it's an old topic but thought it was an interesting point!

Nick


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Having been intrigued that Exo Terra have rebranded their %age bulbs and have created a UV rating system, I checked out their site and from what I can see they've discontinued their 2% bulbs !!
Instead, now having a Reptile UVB 100 (old 5%), Reptile UVB 150 (old 10%) and a Reptile UVB 200 (Think i've seen this before)


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## bobo10 (Sep 10, 2010)

Interesting thread :2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bobo10 said:


> Interesting thread :2thumb:


Lotte is not often around these days, but she really knows her stuff and her advice is based on experience.


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## bobo10 (Sep 10, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> Lotte is not often around these days, but she really knows her stuff and her advice is based on experience.


I can tell...Was a really good read.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Great question. 

In essence in a system set up as we advise then no the UV doesnt stack up. But you are correct in theory! Light placed upon light does increase the LUX available and as UV is an invisible wavlength but still light it "can" build in a way.

So for instance A 54w 6% lamp is emmiting a certain quantity of light. If we take all light to be 100% 6% of the total of visable and invisible is UVB. This will then create a certain index at a certain distance from the lamp.

We suggest that lamps are fitted about 6" apart from each other and with our reflectors this seems to not increase the total index at a point.

But....if you use say 2 54w 6% lamp and fit them ontop of one another the total light at the point below the lamp is increased vertically and as such so will the UVB. typically a T5 lamp seated less than 1" from another increases the Index at that sweet point by 1-2 places.

The further apart from each other the lamps are the lower the index is at the "sweet spot" below each lamp where light is focussed.

By placing the lamps 6" or more apart you just increase the width of light rather than the total LUX and index at a point.

So again yes in theory but in practise we can minimise the effect and use the light to increase an illuminated area without over Indexing an animal (provide more energy from light than a species would be able to regualte under in the wild).

And as a point of interest we have no plans to stop listing our 2% natural sunlight lamps in both T8 and 20w E27 compact and now also 2.4%UVB under the brand name "ParrotPro" in 24w HO power compacts. Which is a natural daylight very High CRI lamp with 2.4% UVB in our wonderful UVFLOOD fitting.

Hope this helps.

John,






DrNick said:


> First time I've read through this thread - great OP. I have a question about the discussion regarding 'stacking' above, mainly to Arcadiajohn I suppose. I may have misunderstood the original question, or your answer (or both!) but here goes....
> 
> By 'stacking' I think of lamps as close as possible to each other (physically), so.... If you have 2x 26W lamps with 5% UVB emission, do you get 10% emission? - no, you don't, as you point out above. But surely you get 5% of a higher number (~52W) where there is overlap? - i.e. more UV exposure to animals that experience emission from both lamps together?
> 
> ...


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> We suggest that lamps are fitted about 6" apart from each other and with our reflectors this seems to not increase the total index at a point.


Aaah - that clears it up. The word "stack" conjured up the wrong image in my mind!

Thanks for the info.

Nick


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

I'm after some advice about Solar Meters and suppose this is as good a place as any to ask.

Basically i'm looking for a good UVB meter, that doesn't cost the earth, and isn't complicated.
(I bought a keyring one on ebay for £16, came all the way from Jerusalem, and only registered a 1.0 when right next to the bulb... wouldn't register anything outside or at ground level... so as warned... it was utterly useless :lol2: )

Sooo.....

Having used the ZooMed one before, it seemed simple enough, and when I requested the technical specs from ZooMed, it turns out it's a rebranded SolarTech 6.0 (Which I had highly suspected anyway)

So i've wittled it down to either the ZooMed one, or the Solartech 6.2, which are pretty much the same apart from the 6.2 has a higher operating temp (Whoop-dee-doo) and a smaller diffuser size.
Leaning more towards the 6.2 tho, as it's a newer model and is nearly £12 cheaper :lol2:

That is of course, unless anyone else has any input ???


P.S Must get round to reading Johns book at some point soon !!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's all about choices... critters will seek what they like and need... so long as the choices are there... species and individuals are different... set things up with choices and observe... usually the critters will show you what they want and need...


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

HABU said:


> it's all about choices... critters will seek what they like and need... so long as the choices are there... species and individuals are different... set things up with choices and observe... usually the critters will show you what they want and need...


That echos advice John often gives- he prefers to set up vivs so that there are gradients and areas sheltered by plants etc to break up the flow of UV- if the animals go to the more open areas, they want more, if to the shade, less. It does seem to make sense.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> I'm just going by the behaviour of my frogs bud. Auratus Ancon Hill HATE light, they go to extreme measures from been out in it. They are, because of this, incredibly shy. Until I moved them from a big viv packed with leaf litter and some wood to a smaller viv packed with plants and wood, and shaded the light tubes over this viv so that there are only spots of light, I never saw them. Now I see them sat in the very shady parts of the viv regularly. Putting a UV on this viv would be a waste of money for the simple reason that the frogs NEVER sit anywhere where light would reach them enough to make it worthwhile.
> 
> Ade


Been to the the locality where they're from and stood in the shade measuring reflected UVB then? It's an enlightening experience to be out in the field using UVB meters :2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Been to the the locality where they're from and stood in the shade measuring reflected UVB then? It's an enlightening experience to be out in the field using UVB meters :2thumb:


Another 'fly-past', Lotte? :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Saedcantas said:


> Been to the the locality where they're from and stood in the shade measuring reflected UVB then? It's an enlightening experience to be out in the field using UVB meters :2thumb:


Have you? Have you even kept Ancon Hill Auratus?

Leaving it at that.

Regards


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Have you? Have you even kept Ancon Hill Auratus?
> 
> Leaving it at that.
> 
> Regards


Just asking a valid question to try and encourage you to consider your perspective from a different angle; you don't have to change it, just have a deeper think about it. 

I've kept a few auratus localities but not Ancon Hill. 
I've not visited that specific area but yes, I've been to plenty of places in the tropics (including a number of sites where I found Dendrobatids) with my UVB meter and UVI meter


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

I try to supply a bit of everything for my frogs but I don't like using full on UV tubes partly for the reason Ade was getting at- some of my frogs simply don't like bright lught. What I do provide however is indirect sunlight from a window. Not direct enough to heat the tank up to boiling point but enough to allow UV to get through if needed. I try to shade the side or part of the tank most in contact with sunlight but my tree frogs will bask in these areas and shift to somewhere shady when they've had enough. My darts (apart from my auratus) are always out and about all over the place so I find it harder to guage the results this extra UV has on them. When I've tried brighter lighting with the auratus they just hide permanantly, with a bit more shade and duller lighting they sit under a cork tube I have in their tank. They only venture in to the brighter light when theres food to be had!


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

yes to confirm, this is what I am passionate about. I feel that all wild animals have the ability to chose to use the energy from light or not, in a way that is effective for them as a species.

The light and shade method to me just makes total sense. It allows a species to obtain the exposure that it requires in a way that suits it best. In terms of Amphibs what I describe as "leaf scatter" illumination does just that. So we plant and decorate a viv in a natural way that provides cover from the glare and high quantities of light and disperses this light as it bounces about and reflects off of leaves and branches. 

if a low light level species decides that its requirement is just to expose a single leg in a low level "column" of light and that is all that it needs then that is fine and we as keepers have allowed it to do so. This just follows the laws of evolution.

Light and energy from light in the form of I.R and UV across both of the terrestrial wavelength groups offer wild animals much of what they need to thrive. It simply makes no evolutionary sense that a cold blooded animal on a rather restricted diet would choose to use I.R for heat and energy, they would also go on to use UVA to help them view the world but that they would filter out and not make use of what has to be one of the biggest free sources of what can be described as life giving energy from UVB. 

So every species has its own level of requirement which is based on thousands if not millions of years of locality evolution, if we can learn from that development and seek to re-create it we must therefore be providing a more wild like and I believe more complete eco-system in which they can live.

Again some species, lets take W.M frogs as an example will bask in the heat of the day and we can re-create that easily but others lets take reed frogs just off the top of my head that will use a vastly lower quantity of light. I believe that both animals will have the same reactions in the body but that the skin and skin secretions would protect the animal from the upper indexes and the thinner less protected skin would let more light though in lower levels and in a much shorter space of time...... It is six and two threes to me.

I guess there is still an element of guesswork to animal keeping and many people do not agree with emerging thought and that is fine! We are all learning day by day...for me however I am fixated on the wild and re-creating the wild in micro-systems.

The fun thing is however that in the next few years more and more of these ideas will be proven or disproven as we all learn together and share our knowledge! For me the collective pool of knowledge available through clubs and forums is by far the most precious resource that we as keepers have. We just learn every day from one another and this should be encouraged and of course recorded.

john,




Ron Magpie said:


> That echos advice John often gives- he prefers to set up vivs so that there are gradients and areas sheltered by plants etc to break up the flow of UV- if the animals go to the more open areas, they want more, if to the shade, less. It does seem to make sense.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

ronnyjodes said:


> What I do provide however is indirect sunlight from a window. Not direct enough to heat the tank up to boiling point but enough to allow UV to get through if needed.


Just a point; UVB rays are blocked by normal glass


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Saedcantas said:


> Just a point; UVB rays are blocked by normal glass


Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. My vivs are all at coffee table height seeing as they're all on coffee tables. I use mesh top Exos with glass covering the back half of the mesh and that's where the lighting sits. The front half is uncovered so the top part of the viv and a bit of the side are exposed to sunlight. No UV gets through the side wall glass (although the plants love it) but the rays I'm talking about getting through are through the top mesh part. Like I say this is more for the benefit of my tree frogs who will mooch up there and bask.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. My vivs are all at coffee table height seeing as they're all on coffee tables. I use mesh top Exos with glass covering the back half of the mesh and that's where the lighting sits. The front half is uncovered so the top part of the viv and a bit of the side are exposed to sunlight. No UV gets through the side wall glass (although the plants love it) but the rays I'm talking about getting through are through the top mesh part. Like I say this is more for the benefit of my tree frogs who will mooch up there and bask.


 Dude, you know I agree with you on a lot- but I can't overestimate the risk of over-heating from direct sunlight- I am still haunted by mistakes I made with that years ago.
Plus, Lotte and John are two people whose subtle advice has really re-shaped how I keep all my reps and phibs over the years. I'll be honest, I was especially cynical about John, given that it's his commercial job too, but time and time again he's turned out to be right.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Dude, you know I agree with you on a lot- but I can't overestimate the risk of over-heating from direct sunlight- I am still haunted by mistakes I made with that years ago.
> Plus, Lotte and John are two people whose subtle advice has really re-shaped how I keep all my reps over the years. I'll be honest, I was especially cynical about John, given that it's his commercial job too, but time and time again he's turned out to be right.


As I said fella it's indirect. I have a window diagonal to my tanks so it isn't direct on to the tanks as I know this is bad news. It catches some of the canopy area which is densely planted anyway. I've had a bunch of tanks in a similar fashion over the years without any ill effects. As we've said already, a mixture is key and that little bit of indirect light had helped bring a few species I've kept out of their shells and gives them that extra choice.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

This is not criticism one way or the other, but just pointing out that unless your vivs are outside, the sunlight still needs to pass through a floatglass/k glass window before entering the viv through the mesh. Thus, no uvb. But no doubt good for plant growth!

Nick


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

DrNick said:


> This is not criticism one way or the other, but just pointing out that unless your vivs are outside, the sunlight still needs to pass through a floatglass/k glass window before entering the viv through the mesh. Thus, no uvb. But no doubt good for plant growth!
> 
> Nick


I'll be totally honest when I say I'm no expert on uv so I'd always assumed that at least some element of uv would get through but I'm happy to hold my hands up if that isn't the case. All I can say is that when compared to using soley artificial lighting I've had some clear results in the way my frogs behaviour has changed when exposed to some element of natural sunlight.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Lotte do you have any readings,relevant to species(morphs even) that you could share with us? Mate it's so damn difficult assessing all this,when one has never been to the tropics all we have really is uv indexes pulled from the web,half the time we don't even have accurate collection data,to know where the wee beastie is from,exactly.Then it's down to us using our eyes and evaluating the hell out of a phibs behaviour and trying our upmost to give the phib all it could possibly need in the viv design/planting. 

Johnny(too many Jonh's mate,hope your cool with being Johnny and the arcadia:whistling2: variety,John just for this:lol2:to many Ronnies two,LMAO). Some of our vivs get exposure too,with us it's just a ***** of early morning sunshine,and yes frogs do react to this. Yup,I worried about the viv overheating Ron,temp was properly monitored before I relaxed,I think it's important you pointed out potential dangers,not really to Jonny(he'll have probably been very aware knowing him like we both do,but hellish so for a new guy reading this(probably with a headache like when I first did:lol2. Jonny,I don't know whether my frogs are getting any UVB as Lotte mentioned,maybe they are just reacting to heat,But I see the same things a behaviour change. To,me they are changing their behaviour...looking for something,it could be uvb it could just be a warm up,but id rather give them choices and keep watching and learning. 

John,I know you have a job to do,but consistently you go out of your way to help us the hobby,above and beyond the call of duty. your detailed post above and Habu's succinct post both ring the same balls here,all the secret's of care are there in the wild,we just have to learn how to evaluate and apply. I'll also pull up the fact that your products do the job here. I don't honestly think I would have got quite so lucky with out 'em,I've never been one of those guys blessed with luck,really. I graft for results and use the best tools I can find. Once I have the tools,I'm free to stop worrying and do what i'm good at watching 'ickle aminals and looking out for 'em. Thanks mate!!!! 

seeya

Stu 

ps some of this has moved on,had problems posting sever down an'all,but i'll leave it as is,frankly i'm amazed I managed to grab it from the ether


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

All good stuff. Just going to point out (in case anyone missed it, lol!) that Saedcantas has loads of field experience, plus worked for one of the premier zoological organisations in the world, before she was a mod on here, and departed for challenges new. If that sounds a bit 'fanboy', I'm sorry, but she really does have some solid knowledge we could all learn from. Sermon over.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

it's something i've been pondering away to myself whilst i think of doing another tank, my current one is quite open and the frogs do go to certain spots to escape the light (currently been thinking of switching the UV for one of those led timed systems, to fake day cycle, tho i've been turning one light off at say 6 and the main off at 9ish). Been pondering creating some kind of fake tree on one side or in one corner using branches and the such and then growing it out for months on end with climbers etc to make a form of broken canopy, in essence a smaller scale of this


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

If I understand John correctly, that's the general plan. Having said all of the above, I still tend to use the lower UV tubes, and I would never use UV with an albino.


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## MSID (May 13, 2010)

I have wondered about amphibians abilities to detect UV, I have recently been using UV sensitive beads (for something completely different) and have realised that many artificial light sources produce UV. UV beads are cheap and have a wide wave length response (see this- Chemistry of UV Detecting Beads | Educational Innovations Blog). I am thinking about using some in my tanks. One thing I have seen is that ordinary window glass certainly lets quite a lot of UV through, I was a bit surprised by this.


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

From memory I believe that normal float glass used for single Payne windows lets in quite a lot of UVA but blocks the UVB part of the spectrum.

To let in a greater proportion of the UVB you would need optiwhite. 

Ben


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

hi,

these beads are sensitive to UVA, it is the same tech as is used in "transistions" spectacle lenses.

most flouro lamps will emit a small amount of UVA and glass does let some pass but.....of course we do not know if the transmission quantity is enough to "activate" tetrachromacy or not or even if these wavelengths are at the optimum peak.

as we all know UV of both terrestrial wavelengths decreases in power the further it travels from source. UVA has a much greater range than UVB from an artificial source. Now obviously the sun itself is the best "reptile lamp" by far! if we could crack decent transmission and stop over heating risk from natural sun through glass we would have a very usable option for part of the day as the sun travels through its courses.

almost all glass and plastics are a 100% UVB stop. some brands of glass claim to have UVB transmissive properties and Pilkington's low iron does let a certain amount through. Although from my personal tests it is no where near as good as stated on the tech sheet. I found about 60% reduction in our lab. 

then there are the UV transmissant acrylics. we use one of these in our D3 Arcpod but this material has to be moulded and is not available in a sheet. This stops around 20%

then there is the acrylics used in the tanning beds, this does seem to let a good amount through but I worry about a developing reduction over time as again the samples that I have do degrade and discolour.

hope this helps

john





MSID said:


> I have wondered about amphibians abilities to detect UV, I have recently been using UV sensitive beads (for something completely different) and have realised that many artificial light sources produce UV. UV beads are cheap and have a wide wave length response (see this- Chemistry of UV Detecting Beads | Educational Innovations Blog). I am thinking about using some in my tanks. One thing I have seen is that ordinary window glass certainly lets quite a lot of UV through, I was a bit surprised by this.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Yes with low-iron glass you can get up to 60% transmission of UVB (allegedly). Float glass completely absorbs UVB to all intents and purposes.



Saedcantas said:


> Been to the the locality where they're from and stood in the shade measuring reflected UVB then? It's an enlightening experience to be out in the field using UVB meters :2thumb:


Could you post any of the values you measured? I have struggled to find representative measurements and it sounds as if you have some experience. Without being able to compare viv to field measurements this debate really goes nowhere...

My understanding is that the range can be from <20 mW/cm^-2 (forest floor) to >300 mW/cm^-2 exposed at altitude. Do you really get significant reflected UVB from organic materials under the canopy? I would expect it to be almost entirely absorbed? Interesting if that's not the case!

Nick


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

yes broad leaf rainforest plants in particular reflect light and as UV is part of light it reflects UV quite well.

this is maximised in wet surroundings also as the wet leaves are slightly more reflective it seems.

for a tetrachromat the pathways of light as it bounces about in a rainforest must be an amazing sight that is for sure!

john




DrNick said:


> Yes with low-iron glass you can get up to 60% transmission of UVB (allegedly). Float glass completely absorbs UVB to all intents and purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Aaah - I hadn't factored the surface moisture in! John, do you have any measurements you could share?


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

John, "activate" tetrachromacy??? whats this, could you elaborate please?

Thanks
Ben


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes most if not all reptiles, birds and amphibians use UVA to view the world. With reptiles and birds for instance the inclusion ofnthe forth cell in the eye and ONLY if exposed to UVA allows them to see a reported 100million colours. Humans see about 1 million.

It is thought that most amphibs are the same and if exposed to UVA will be able to use vision as intended by nature.

John





phelsumaman said:


> John, "activate" tetrachromacy??? whats this, could you elaborate please?
> 
> Thanks
> Ben


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Yes most if not all reptiles, birds and amphibians use UVA to view the world. With reptiles and birds for instance the inclusion ofnthe forth cell in the eye and ONLY if exposed to UVA allows them to see a reported 100million colours. Humans see about 1 million.
> 
> It is thought that most amphibs are the same and if exposed to UVA will be able to use vision as intended by nature.
> 
> John


I'll throw in a thanks there John,that is bewildering!!!
best
Stu


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Stu,

As far as I know I am the only person in our trade to be paid to research light and its direct effects on animals. Everyday I am lucky enough to read or am told something new and do you know what? NATURE BLOWS MY MIND! totally and utterly, I am in awe of it 100% of the time!

I don't pretend to understand it all, not by far but I'm happy to pass on some of what I hear.,

The most exciting thing is the rate of which tech and scientific thought is progressing! Just imagine the sheer numbers that we will be able to produce in the next 5 years, as we learn from nature, replicate it and use advancing tech to do so.

I'm sure that gone will be the small races of C.B darts and we will be able to produce those almost bulldog like examples that arrive as W.C rarely. 

Spindly leg will all but disappear as we get these energy levels and dietary offerings sorted. Supplement related deaths should decrease and the number of C.B species should increase.

I could go on for hours but wont! I am just so passionate about wild re-creation and all of the benefits that it offers to captive stock going forwards. If nature has allowed a trait to develop over millennia then it allowed it for a reason. As forward thinking keepers we should not second guess or think that we know more/better than nature. It just makes no sense. animal keeping is one big puzzle but we have a map! look to the wild, re-create as closely as possible, removing predation and disease and we should have "wild" systems with "wild" traits....

John,




soundstounite said:


> I'll throw in a thanks there John,that is bewildering!!!
> best
> Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> I could go on for hours but wont! I am just so passionate about wild re-creation and all of the benefits that it offers to captive stock going forwards. If nature has allowed a trait to develop over millennia then it allowed it for a reason. As forward thinking keepers we should not second guess or think that we know more/better than nature. It just makes no sense. animal keeping is one big puzzle but we have a map! look to the wild, re-create as closely as possible, removing predation and disease and we should have "wild" systems with "wild" traits....
> 
> John,


One of the reasons I am so keen on 'diverse' bioactive set-ups. I use the parenthesis because the most complex ecology we can set up in the home is still just a pale reflection of an average temperate woodland, much less a tropical one!


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

quite right Ron, but we are getting better and better at it all the time. Just imagine what we will be able to do in 5-10 years let alone the next 20!

we really will start to get to grips with it I am positive.

Just cast your mind back to the 80s and 90s :whistling2: remember how bad it was then.

now look at us, breeding sprintails and growing plants and measuring light outputs and humidity and....BREEDING FROGS!!! it just proves that nature has had it right all along

john 



Ron Magpie said:


> One of the reasons I am so keen on 'diverse' bioactive set-ups. I use the parenthesis because the most complex ecology we can set up in the home is still just a pale reflection of an average temperate woodland, much less a tropical one!


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Damn Nature, always bloody right *shakes fist at the sky*

love having you around John, it's a bloody pleasure to have someone in your field on here passing on information with fellow hobbyists


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Hey John,I have to reiterate what Joe has said,I know it's your job,but the help given to us for our phibs,is wonderful mate,it's an honour to call you friend really. Just a tiny cheers dude for what you put in and your enthusiasm. John,the products are cool,having you stand along side 'em helps muchly,for simple folks like me it's incredibly important to be able to use expertise such as yours,to arm me with tools so I can just get my head down and do what I do. Expertise in all fields is very hard,especially with a hobby such as ours,our niche is all about an ecosystem,trying to stuff that in a glass box is profound. There is a huge need for folks like me to have specialists like yourself, that I can access and talk to debate with and utilize knowledge gained. I'm a simple stockman,I have specific sets of requirements to fulfill,simply put your expertise makes my life and my ability to achieve easier.

As you have already said the advancements to our hobby are amazing,I'm with you on nature mate such an awesome force,I totally agree she has our answers,total awe here too!! Sometimes I wish I was loaded and was able to sod off to dart frog land to really learn,as it is we have the web and ingenuity plus this above^^^^.I have spent hours staring at a few minute vid, of late,trying to fathom a habitat,it's so hard grabbing a slice and dumping it in a glass box,there are so many factors and yup we are still so inadaquate,but i remember those far off days last time around,30 years back,damn how much more we know now. 

It is so important for us to breed and be successful. In some ways we are just mad folks that keep frogs,but in others we have the capacity to be oh so much more. Mad specialists, banging away, staring in awe at the kid we have grafted for,long may we advance at the rate we have thus far!!

bring it the hell on

Stu

ps sorry John nature pretty much opens the door to anything here:mf_dribble:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

we need a theme tune to march too, think full metal jacket mickey mouse lol, "we are the amphibian preservation society"


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> we need a theme tune to march too, think full metal jacket mickey mouse lol, "we are the amphibian preservation society"



Sorted!
We'll just steal the one from the italian job outro Joe( 'ere the first one with real minis in,nah not skirts,ahh man this is so difficult:gasp: Buddy,were you around then?:Na_Na_Na_Na:


i'll see myself out:lol2:

Stu


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

you're joking right ? people say i'm 26, but talk like a 50yr old lol my dvd collection is mainly 1930 horror and 50's sci-fi. new mini's are a disgrace


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> you're joking right ? people say i'm 26, but talk like a 50yr old lol my dvd collection is mainly 1930 horror and 50's sci-fi. new mini's are a disgrace


then you got ya theme bro:2thumb:,

Ahh mate I don't have to be serious for too long do I:gasp:,that's all I've done tonight apart from having a crack with you. mind all froggy stuff, :2thumb:

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I'll be honest; John and Lotte (Saedcantas), who both know oodles, both contributed to a major change in my attitiude to UV generally- and subtle comments from Stu and Alex M helped, too. In case that sounds totally wierd, I should explain that back in the day, the only articficial source of UV were disco-type 'black lights'- which were dangerous on many levels. What is available now is a whole new world.


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## Malagasy (Nov 27, 2011)

How would you recommend you store vitamin supplements as I never knew they degraded over time? Also would you say all amphibians require UVB or can some species'a calcium demands be fulfilled with supplements?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

much research is still needed. I do however feel that if a species "would or could" receive energy from the sun in the wild then nature will have allowed it to make use of the "Free" source of energy. To assume that it does not makes a mockery of evolutionary science.

we also know that an animal does not need to be awake to benefit in full from the D3 cycle. 

so as with all things look to the wild. Really try and get to grips with how the animal lives in its eco-system and try and make an educated assumption as to how use this environment. Many small Dendros for example will be using the forest through the day. Now the UVI above the canopy is quite high and the level of available light that enters the emergent and travels through the canopy into the understory will be decreasing in quantity and as such power or UVI as it travels down. But light is reflected well in these broad leaf and wet forests. In fact these small shafts or columns of light that enter the forest are referred to as leaf scatter illumination. If you have the gift of tetrachromacy you should be able to see these power shafts and adjust your own position to make use of them AS you have use.

so the light and shade method makes real sense. to allow an animal to choose the energy that it requires as and when it requires it in a way that is natural for it to use. 

in theory you could provide a system that provides a graduated index from say 3 at basking to 0 in the shade and with a million variations in between as light bounces around. Now one species may spend 6 hours a day in full exposure and that would be re-creating wild behaviour as IT has the choice. Another species lets say mossy frogs may sit to one side in the shade and sleep in an index of 0.25 or lower. Both species are actually benefitting form this level of exposure in the way that natural to them. In theory due to skin thickness and light absorbency both groups would end up with the same chemical changes In the body just in a different way.

honestly it is like waynes world 2, "build it and they will come"  if we provide a targeted area of illumination that includes quality UV to a measured dose and over a measured area they will as nature dictates take what they need as they need it.

with regard to supplements, you need to check with your brand of choice. Some compounds lose potency from after the first 24 hours it seems and especially after being mixed with other compounds and chemicals and after exposure to air. some do not. then the bigger worry of "how much does my species require" kicks in. I have real worries about over supplementation...... I feel that it is an unspoken monster that is waiting to be discovered.

John,




Malagasy said:


> How would you recommend you store vitamin supplements as I never knew they degraded over time? Also would you say all amphibians require UVB or can some species'a calcium demands be fulfilled with supplements?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> with regard to supplements, you need to check with your brand of choice. Some compounds lose potency from after the first 24 hours it seems and especially after being mixed with other compounds and chemicals and after exposure to air. some do not. then the bigger worry of "how much does my species require" kicks in. *I have real worries about over supplementation...... I feel that it is an unspoken monster that is waiting to be discovered.
> *
> John,


Yes, that's something that concerns me, too. It's the reason I tend to dust feeder insects only once or twice a week- especially if the animals already have some exposure to UV. I have heard in the past of reptiles and amphibians absorbing _too much_ calcium or ODing on vitamins- especially A- I have no documentary proof, though.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Ron,

Yes there indeed have been cases of D3 and Vit A overdoses.

In short this is because both compounds are not filtered out by the body, so any over supply could build up.

Now D3 produced in the body cannot be over supplied as the animal only uses that which it needs and passes through its system any excess.

Vit A issues are a contributory factor to what we know as MBD and many other issues. again these animals would not receive synthetics in the wild and evolution would take far longer than we have to allow them to adapt.

As such beta carotene is vastly safer to use as again they only convert what is required.

This stops build ups.

But it is a knife edge between not enough and too much

As you know I have been writing a new book on reptile and amphibian nutrition and have been amazed at the interactions of these elements and how animals obtain them. Have you ever looked at the mineral consistency of rain and lake water???? it will blow you mind! 

in effect wild animals are "self supplementing" every time they eat and drink with an amazing array of minerals and bacteria and microfauna.....

we literally know less than 1% of what we need to know!

john,




Ron Magpie said:


> Yes, that's something that concerns me, too. It's the reason I tend to dust feeder insects only once or twice a week- especially if the animals already have some exposure to UV. I have heard in the past of reptiles and amphibians absorbing _too much_ calcium or ODing on vitamins- especially A- I have no documentary proof, though.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Its so diificult to know with herp. nutrition and what brand of supplements to use.

The only thing that I would add to this is that the lizards and amphibians that I am able to keep in outdoor enclosures and therefore have access to natural sunlight and wild food generally look better and fare better than those inside.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

colinm said:


> Its so diificult to know with herp. nutrition and what brand of supplements to use.
> 
> The only thing that I would add to this is that the lizards and amphibians that I am able to keep in outdoor enclosures and therefore have access to natural sunlight and wild food generally look better and fare better than those inside.


This, and John's point, are why I try to feed wild-caught food whenever I can, in addition to cultured stuff. I feel that the food we provide in captivity is nothing like as varied as the animals would norrmally eat in the wild; the more variety we can give, the better.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Spot on Ron!

just think of the sheer magnitude of microfauna that we know they eat! After all most of us use springtails now...but that is one or two species in what must count up to thousands in the wild. We must also remember that Ca is the most common metal on the planet and as such they pretty much cant do anything without ingesting it through food or the soil stuck to the foods or when they drink. Then what about the gutflora and sugars of this magnitude of livefoods,,,how do they effect the wild animal.. you can go on and on until it leaves your brain feeling numb!:gasp:

John




Ron Magpie said:


> This, and John's point, are why I try to feed wild-caught food whenever I can, in addition to cultured stuff. I feel that the food we provide in captivity is nothing like as varied as the animals would norrmally eat in the wild; the more variety we can give, the better.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

ha ha wot you guys just said^^^^,100% with you Ron ,although you already know that. I think we dart keepers are very lucky,having specialist sites word travels very quick around the world when a newish excellent product range such as repashy surfaces, some products being designed for daily dusting. But as much as I use and see the benefits of dusting,I'll always see them as products we use to replace our own dietry inadaqucies. I do yearn for a time when we won't have to pop "pills" into our frogs,because we have the diet honed,but how one would ever get there is beyond me,even if I could culture/utilise every single suitable beastei here for food,it would still fall short of what my frogs eat in the wild. Then as you say John,what they injest with food,brings us to the importance of substrates and their composition,illustrated by the clay substrate threads. Mind numbing it is guys. 

So much to learn!!!!!!

Stu


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

this week i've turned my UVB bulb off and just got the ultrasun on, the frogs have never been so lively


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

this may be well out there, but i would try heavy misting this week to coincide with you switching off a bulb. maybe they think it is overcast and they are excited about the potential for heavy rain, and then the increase in food and mating that follows. 

that's just a wild thought tangent, or maybe they are emo frogs who hate sunlight.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

to be honest, i think i ended up with two females


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Meefloaf said:


> this week i've turned my UVB bulb off and just got the ultrasun on, the frogs have never been so lively


give 'em a few weeks Joe and flip the switches,ie uvb on other off,you might find the same result,have a hunch too much light is too much light,I don't think it's the uvb portion that has given you this result.

Calz the wild off the wall thought is not so far from the truth in my view,I work the fronts (lows) occassionaly,this is my trigger for another summersi attempt,but the frogs do react oft with almost required results,no embryos stops play,but everything else is there

Just thoughts guys ,

Stu


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i'm going to agree with you stu tbh, the back isnt so lit and they've been up there today and exploring, not really been doing that since they first went in.

the other theory could be to do with the distance of light to the top area at the back, i originally had the ultrasun in my zoo med, the zoo med is very low to the viv, and i had the uvb in the arcadia, switched these bulbs around and the units placing. now i have the arcadia with ultrasun at the front (at the back in the zoo med it led to some broms redding up and crisping) and the zoomed with the uvb is at the back.


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

So after http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/1037017-looking-replace-mesh-something-more.html I ordered some mesh.
It arrived today, so I did some science testing. 

Garden Insect Mesh was what I ordered.

Oh boy 

All done at the same hight, same bulb position everything...










2) Sunbed-Grade Acrylic from Plasticstockist.com
3) B&Q Expanded Aluminium Mesh (6mm x 4mm holes)
4) Halfords Isopon Mesh (Closest I could get to Exo Terra without wrecking the experiment)
5) PremierNetting.co.uk - Anti Insect Fly Screen
7) B&Q 4mm Twinwall Polycarbonate


So it looks like the best option is to simply rip out the Exo Terra Mesh and glue in some (Rather expensive) Sunbed Acrylic, whilst leaving some mesh for air circulation and fan positioning.

What I will also be doing is pulling apart the exo hood and lining it with reflective somethingorother (Probably tin foil)
I may even have a go at making a canopy with guttering as I believe strip bulbs are different class to compacts and the strip canopies are a fortune!!


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

You could simply put the tube in the vivarium if you can, and if the frogs cannot climb on it.


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