# RETICS: Ivory, ultra ivory and leucistic's



## SnakeDB

Hi guys/gals,

So im looking at some of the following retics but everywhere I look for info on genetics seems to give slightly different views. Knowing they come from platinums is fine but is it a complete luck of the gods when breeding these together when it comes to what you get out? or is there still %'s that can be calculated?

for example what would the following give?:

Ivory x Ivory
Ivory x ultra ivory
Ivory x Leucistic
leucistic x ultra

Also, I have read that ivory/leucistic goes well with goldenchilds.

What would Ivory x GC and Leucistic x GC give out?

Sorry, I know its alot of questions but would appreciate any help greatly!:2thumb:


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## chewy86

I may be wrong bud, but im sure I have seen it explained that they work the same as the type 1 albino. Not sure where the platinum comes in to be honest but with the 3 other forms its -

lucy is like a purple
ultra is like a lav 
ivory is like a white phase.

meaning -

lucy x lucy - all lucy 
lucy x ultra - lucy and ultra (50% of each)
lucy x ivory - all ultras

ultra x ultra - all 3 (25% ivory, 50 ultra, 25% lucy)
ultra x ivory - ultras and ivory (50% of each)
ultra x lucy - ultra and lucy (50% of each)

ivory x ivory - all ivory
ivory x ultra - ultras and ivory (50% of each)
ivory x lucy - all ultras 

Maybe the platinum is het in a way?


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## chewy86

well the platy is not a het, its a co-dom morph and has 3 super forms. I dont knowe how platy mixes back into them. It may just make a split of platy and the super form it bred with ie 50/50 ivory and platy or may make a total differant mix.

The above regarding the 3 super forms is correct as far as i know, Someone a little more genetic minded may be able to add to this.


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## paulh

Leucistic: Blue-Eyed | Reticulated Pythons

Platinum | Reticulated Pythons

I don't have all the details on reticulated python genetics. From the above links, platinum is a codominant mutant gene. A platinum retic has a platinum mutant gene paired with a normal gene, and an ivory retic has a pair of platinum mutant genes. Ultra ivory is claimed to be a linebred ivory, but I don't think that is the last word on it. Leucistic is a recessive mutant gene in a different gene pair. 

From the above information, here's what I think those matings would produce:
Ivory x Ivory --> all ivory
Ivory x ultra ivory --> don't know. All ivory at a guess.
Ivory x Leucistic --> All platinum het leucistic
leucistic x ultra --> don't know and will not guess.


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## chewy86

paulh said:


> Leucistic: Blue-Eyed | Reticulated Pythons
> 
> Platinum | Reticulated Pythons
> 
> I don't have all the details on reticulated python genetics. From the above links, platinum is a codominant mutant gene. A platinum retic has a platinum mutant gene paired with a normal gene, and an ivory retic has a pair of platinum mutant genes. Ultra ivory is claimed to be a linebred ivory, but I don't think that is the last word on it. Leucistic is a recessive mutant gene in a different gene pair.
> 
> From the above information, here's what I think those matings would produce:
> Ivory x Ivory --> all ivory
> Ivory x ultra ivory --> don't know. All ivory at a guess.
> Ivory x Leucistic --> All platinum het leucistic
> leucistic x ultra --> don't know and will not guess.


Wrong Lucy mate, platys make the black eyed lucy. And also blue eyed lucy doesnt exist its the cow retic now.


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## chewy86

Correction.

The Ultra is equivelant to the white phase albino, ivory lav and lucy purple. Making the platy a het Ivory although ivory is just its super form unlike normal wild type hets as its co-dom. 

So from the start -

Platy x platy - platy and ivory
platy x ivory - not sure but im assuming all 4.
ivory x ivory - all 3 supers (25% ultra, 50% ivory, 25% lucy)

lucy is like a purple
Ivory is like a lav
ultra is like a white 

meaning - 

lucy x lucy - all lucy
lucy x ultra - all ivory 
lucy x ivory - lucy and ivory (50% of each)

Ultra x ivory - ultras and ivory (50% of each) 
ultra x lucy - all ivory
ultra x ultra - all ultra

ivory x ivory - all 3 (25% ultra, 50% ivory, 25% lucy)
Ivory x ultra - ivory and ultra (50% of each)
Ivory x lucy - ivory and lucy (50% of each)

On my phone and for some reason it wont let me get to the below txt to delete it, im ready for lobbing it out of the window so going to leave it there. This better help Op my blood pressure has been massively raised doing this!

ivory x ivory - all ivory ivory x ultra - ultras and ivory (50% of each) ivory x lucy - all ultras*


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## SnakeDB

Thanks mate that is a great help, I had read of the comparison bewteen them and the albino strains.

So the test for you again  what about the pairings with GC's?

Ivory x GC and Leucistic x GC's?

Using the genetic wizard I found gives plats and plat GC's from the ivory, however it gives 

25%	1/4	Normal
25%	1/4	Golden Child
25%	1/4	Black Eye Leucistic
25%	1/4	Blue Eye Leucistic Golden Child

from the leucistic!

Google Image Result for http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4VXrkZe4WmU/TG1WTPHyfcI/AAAAAAAAHkU/u29tGFGoLBI/s1600/Leucistic+Blue+Eyed+Reticulated+Python.jpg

Would be nice to create if that calculator is correct?

many thanks for the help so far!


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## chewy86

SnakeDB said:


> Thanks mate that is a great help, I had read of the comparison bewteen them and the albino strains.
> 
> So the test for you again  what about the pairings with GC's?
> 
> Ivory x GC and Leucistic x GC's?
> 
> Using the genetic wizard I found gives plats and plat GC's from the ivory, however it gives
> 
> 25% 1/4 Normal
> 25% 1/4 Golden Child
> 25% 1/4 Black Eye Leucistic
> 25% 1/4 Blue Eye Leucistic Golden Child
> 
> from the leucistic!
> 
> Google Image Result for http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4VXrkZe4WmU/TG1WTPHyfcI/AAAAAAAAHkU/u29tGFGoLBI/s1600/Leucistic+Blue+Eyed+Reticulated+Python.jpg
> 
> Would be nice to create if that calculator is correct?
> 
> many thanks for the help so far!


Not sure to be honest, but im certain there has been no true blue eyed lucy produced/found as of yet. They always have yellow speckles or end up as a cow (black spots) i believe nerd are hoping to create one soon with their phantom ghost stripe project but im sure only black eyed will be produced with the platy gene.

goldenchild and platy both being co-dom im sure you would get ivorys, goldenchilds, goldenchild ivories atlease but not sure on the whole clutch and %.


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## snaketats

chewy86 said:


> Not sure to be honest, but im certain there has been no true blue eyed lucy produced/found as of yet. They always have yellow speckles or end up as a cow (black spots) i believe nerd are hoping to create one soon with their phantom ghost stripe project but im sure only black eyed will be produced with the platy gene.
> 
> goldenchild and platy both being co-dom im sure you would get ivorys, goldenchilds, goldenchild ivories atlease but not sure on the whole clutch and %.


Golden child is dominant there is no super form
Platinum is co dom as you already know might be worth speaking with James coppen at imperial retics he produced all 3 types this year ivory ultras and leucies but not sure on what the parent lines were.


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## chewy86

snaketats said:


> Golden child is dominant there is no super form
> Platinum is co dom as you already know might be worth speaking with James coppen at imperial retics he produced all 3 types this year ivory ultras and leucies but not sure on what the parent lines were.


Whoops.


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## SnakeDB

snaketats said:


> Golden child is dominant there is no super form
> Platinum is co dom as you already know might be worth speaking with James coppen at imperial retics he produced all 3 types this year ivory ultras and leucies but not sure on what the parent lines were.



Ye been chatting with James thanks

Seems this lot is still abit of a mystery which makes it all the more fun to get into :2thumb:


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## paulh

chewy86 said:


> ivory x ivory - all ivory ivory x ultra - ultras and ivory (50% of each) ivory x lucy - all ultras*


This discussion has been a bit abstract for me. Can you help me make a list of genes?

The way I am reading the quote, there is one gene locus with 3 genes:
1. normal
2. platinum (equivelant to the purple phase albino mutant gene in reticulated pythons)
3. leucistic (equivelant to the white phase albino mutant gene in reticulated pythons)

Three genes make six possible gene pairs:
1. normal//normal gene pair produces normal appearance
2. platinum//normal gene pair produces platinum
3. platinum//platinum gene pair produces ivory
4. leucistic//normal gene pair produces ________
5. leucistic//leucistic gene pair produces black eyed leucistic (AKA leucistic)
6. leucistic//platinum gene pair produces ultra

As there are six possible males and six possible females, there are 36 possible matings. But we need not go into that at this time.

I'd appreciate any corrections to these lists. And please fill in the blank for gene pair #4.


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## chewy86

paulh said:


> This discussion has been a bit abstract for me. Can you help me make a list of genes?
> 
> The way I am reading the quote, there is one gene locus with 3 genes:
> 1. normal
> 2. platinum (equivelant to the purple phase albino mutant gene in reticulated pythons)
> 3. leucistic (equivelant to the white phase albino mutant gene in reticulated pythons)
> 
> Three genes make six possible gene pairs:
> 1. normal//normal gene pair produces normal appearance
> 2. platinum//normal gene pair produces platinum
> 3. platinum//platinum gene pair produces ivory
> 4. leucistic//normal gene pair produces ________
> 5. leucistic//leucistic gene pair produces black eyed leucistic (AKA leucistic)
> 6. leucistic//platinum gene pair produces ultra
> 
> As there are six possible males and six possible females, there are 36 possible matings. But we need not go into that at this time.
> 
> I'd appreciate any corrections to these lists. And please fill in the blank for gene pair #4.


I honestly only know with regards to crossing the 3 super forms to each other. When normals and other morphs go to the 3 super forms im lost too.

All i know/have been told is that to picture the -

Ivory to be a lav
ultra to be a white 
lucy to be a purple
platy the co-dom that produces the 3 super forms when bred to another platy.

Im not sure if ie an ultra goes to a normal it makes ultras platys and normals or platys and normals or what.
Even platy to one of the 3 superforms im not 100% on, just the fact the platys seem to only make ivorys makes me think I should take a platy to superform as a het ivory to that super form then refer back to the crossing on the 3 super forms calculations, same as you would if you had a het lav x lav or het lave x purple and so on.

Im suprised no one with 100% understanding of this has chimed in to put us all right. As I say my info is not 100% and anything outside of the 3 super forms ive guessed from previous morph outcomes. Although its the only 3 phase super form I know of so its difficult to fully say what would happen without knowing or being allot better than me at genetics.

Sorry to be no more help Paul.


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## bothrops

chewy86 said:


> Im suprised no one with 100% understanding of this has chimed in to put us all right. As I say my info is not 100% and anything outside of the 3 super forms ive guessed from previous morph outcomes. Although its the only 3 phase super form I know of so its difficult to fully say what would happen without knowing or being allot better than me at genetics.
> 
> Sorry to be no more help Paul.




I think that's because no-one actually has a 100% understanding (not even the big breeders working with the morph!).

It has nothing to do with 'being better at genetics'. Paul and myself have a pretty strong understanding of genetics. The difficulty is that we need full disclosure of the parents and litters of a number of platy/lucy/ivory matings in order to work out what is happening. Has with many of these newer morphs, the rumour mills and assumption generators run amok before full genetic test crosses have been done and its very difficult to separate the internet wheat from the internet/troll chaff.

This is so common that almost everybody 'accepts' that the spider royal is a 'dominant' mutation. However, those of us with a moderate understanding of genetics know that it HAS to be codominant. The reason its accepted as dominant is because some of the massive US breeders have 'decided' it is, due, I suspect, in part to having no formal genetics training coupled with a slight misunderstanding of the definition of terms. 

As you can imagine, if we can't get something as simple as a spider correct, then you can see these more complicated situations lead to tremendous confusion!


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## chewy86

bothrops said:


> I think that's because no-one actually has a 100% understanding (not even the big breeders working with the morph!).
> 
> It has nothing to do with 'being better at genetics'. Paul and myself have a pretty strong understanding of genetics. The difficulty is that we need full disclosure of the parents and litters of a number of platy/lucy/ivory matings in order to work out what is happening. Has with many of these newer morphs, the rumour mills and assumption generators run amok before full genetic test crosses have been done and its very difficult to separate the internet wheat from the internet/troll chaff.
> 
> This is so common that almost everybody 'accepts' that the spider royal is a 'dominant' mutation. However, those of us with a moderate understanding of genetics know that it HAS to be codominant. The reason its accepted as dominant is because some of the massive US breeders have 'decided' it is, due, I suspect, in part to having no formal genetics training coupled with a slight misunderstanding of the definition of terms.
> 
> As you can imagine, if we can't get something as simple as a spider correct, then you can see these more complicated situations lead to tremendous confusion!


 
Correction - better understanding of the gene, not genetics in general :2thumb:


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## ern79

paulh said:


> Leucistic: Blue-Eyed | Reticulated Pythons
> 
> Platinum | Reticulated Pythons
> 
> I don't have all the details on reticulated python genetics. From the above links, platinum is a codominant mutant gene. A platinum retic has a platinum mutant gene paired with a normal gene, and an ivory retic has a pair of platinum mutant genes. Ultra ivory is claimed to be a linebred ivory, but I don't think that is the last word on it. Leucistic is a recessive mutant gene in a different gene pair.
> 
> From the above information, here's what I think those matings would produce:
> Ivory x Ivory --> all ivory
> Ivory x ultra ivory --> don't know. All ivory at a guess.
> Ivory x Leucistic --> All platinum het leucistic
> leucistic x ultra --> don't know and will not guess.


the blue eyed leucistic has been proven to be a combo morph!


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## ern79

SnakeDB said:


> Thanks mate that is a great help, I had read of the comparison bewteen them and the albino strains.
> 
> So the test for you again  what about the pairings with GC's?
> 
> Ivory x GC and Leucistic x GC's?
> 
> Using the genetic wizard I found gives plats and plat GC's from the ivory, however it gives
> 
> 25% 1/4 Normal
> 25% 1/4 Golden Child
> 25% 1/4 Black Eye Leucistic
> 25% 1/4 Blue Eye Leucistic Golden Child
> 
> from the leucistic!
> 
> Google Image Result for http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4VXrkZe4WmU/TG1WTPHyfcI/AAAAAAAAHkU/u29tGFGoLBI/s1600/Leucistic+Blue+Eyed+Reticulated+Python.jpg
> 
> Would be nice to create if that calculator is correct?
> 
> many thanks for the help so far!


throw this genetic wizard in the bin!


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## ern79

snaketats said:


> Golden child is dominant there is no super form
> Platinum is co dom as you already know might be worth speaking with James coppen at imperial retics he produced all 3 types this year ivory ultras and leucies but not sure on what the parent lines were.


the word is that the super form of g.c. is unstable and dont live long.


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## ern79

the whole thing is complicated as there are reports of platty x platty creating leucistics, maybe the black eyed leucistic in retics isnt a different morph but just an excellent ivory, I have seen blk.E.L ball pytons (super fire) with huge patches of yellow on the back, maybe that is just what we call ivory in retics?


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## chewy86

Maybe Matt.


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## SnakeDB

Ye I have read some people believe the ivory/ultra and lucy are all the same snake (Super platty) just different marked. Ah well all we can do is try and breed some and keep seeing what we get out i guess.


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