# Tortoises



## TSKA Rory Matier

There are quite a few tortoises on the EPS listing, l have only heard of a few of them .

With the new act, how does this affect the industry as from what l can gather, thousands of wild caughts come into the United kingdom every year - is this part of the industry set to lose out?

Or there must be established successful Uk captive breeders who can verify the proof required for continued ownership, so therefore supply of qualifiable tortoise species can continue yes?

Surely using qualitable UK CB breeders is far better than wild caughts anyway?

Or is it a price war scenario?

In so far as CB are more expensive than WC?

I just think that for all new tortoise buyers, it would l feel be better to buy from a UK seller?

R

PKL


----------



## Esarosa

funnily enough imports n pet shop torts are far more expensive than cb.

I think the problem comes from people simply not knowing that they're buying imports.

When i got my first tort i believed the importation of chelonians was prohibited..so thought I was buying UK or at least captive bred stock..it was later i found out that it was actually an import..n most probably wild caught 

Using CB breeders in my book is always better. but not everyone finds this forum during research or the tortoise trust. or the tortoise protection group (yahoo based) when i initially did research i didnt find any of the above.. it was only as a started typing more random things into google that i discovered RFUK n in turn the TT and TPG

There are an increasing number of tortoise breeders within the UK and a list of reputable can be found on the tortoise protection group... there are probably more which aren't listed tho.

It can be hard for new/prospective owners to find the right information regarding chelonians n their husbandry. everything seems to conflict in one way or another

In regards to the EPS it should protect wild species from the mass importation which currently occurs, which in theory is a good thing..but what about those owners of hermanns/spur thigh whos tortoises are rescues? where do they stand?

Also the EPS protects certain species but not species such as the Horsfield tortoise...so what impact will it have on this species? will more be imported to make up for the pet trade demand? 

Katie


----------



## HABU

has rory ever said what people must do exactly to defeat this legislation? i must have missed it. step a, step b and so on. he probibly did but it all cofuses me. our systems are so different.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

European Tortoises coming into this country are supposedly Captive Bred, some say they are wild caught and passed off as CB through the Slovenian tortoise trade (Tortoise trust's stance), others say that these tortoises are legitimately farmed in their vast numbers in Slovenia (the people trading them). I dont know who is right and who is wrong. But there is a hell of a lot of tortoises coming through from slovenia and most traders know where they can put their hands on them and they typically cost about £40 each, the cheapest I have seen them was £35 each for ten or more. Most private breeders ask about £80 - £100 quid for one of their babies. So the dilemma faced by traders is Do I buy these incredibly cheap tortoises that may by questionable and make huge profits. Or do I buy off of the local breeder and make a lesser profit? 

I am not saying whats right or wrong, but thats the current situation.

It becomes more interesting when you realise that (i belive i am correct in saying) that traders now need a licence to sell EPS species, however I have looked and looked and can not find any info on this anywhere other than the statement saying that a licence is required to trade the EPS animals.

So are all traders currently breaking the law by offering european protected tortoises for sale?


----------



## peaches

Can I just ask what does it state on the cites paperwork for these Slovenian torts? Does it state that in section 11, Country of Origin?


Suely if it does, it would be easy to avoid buying these ones coming into the country???


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Yes, they always have slovenian paperwork.


----------



## Athravan

I can't see how this affects the tortoises or the tortoise trade. They all come into the country with their paperwork saying they are CB and country of origin. I can't conceive how EPS would refuse to grant a license (if it's necessary in addition to the Article 10 paperwork.. I haven't heard anything conclusive on this?) on something that is explicitly registered as CB, with the breeder (or farm's) name/address on their records.. so it is easily verified by them if they choose to do so.

If they refuse to recognise Article 10 as conclusive proof of CB status, then surely they are saying that there is a chance these are not CB, but WC. In saying these, surely it is then illegal for people to be owning these tortoises that may not be CB and the article 10's are illegally issued..

If the EPS refuses to recognises the validity of Article 10, then Cites is surely being accused of issuing invalid illegal paperwork.

Whether they are legitimately CB or WC or CF is not really the issue, the point is, they already have documented evidence that has previously been taken as legal proof of CB status... are the EPS really going to overturn that? I don't think CITES would be hugely happy.

As a shop I have received no communications from CITES or the EPS legislation organisers saying that additional documentation is needed. I have had paperwork back in the last month that states my tortoises are still legal to sell... perhaps we will receive something different in the future, but it perhaps will be interesting to see if CITES and the EPS end up coming head to head, but I doubt it.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Its just interesting that they are saying a licence is required to sell an EPS animal, so should we as sellers be registering for a licence to sell each tortoise?

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/conservation/wildlife-management-licensing/docs/WML-A38.doc

Does this apply to only WC animals? anyone know the answer please?


----------



## Ssthisto

Yes, it only applies to WC animals... but it's on the holder of the animal to PROVE that the animal is not WC because the instructions are to assume that any EPS animal in captivity was wild-caught illegally in the EU.

And I would be VERY interested to find out whether the Article 10 paperwork issued for tortoises SUSPECTED to be WC but papered as CB Slovenian tortoises will stand up to EPS regulations as proof of legal acquisition.


----------



## peaches

With regard to the torts I would have thought, like Athraven, that cites paperwork should be sufficient - otherwise what's the point in cites????


----------



## Onissarle

peaches said:


> With regard to the torts I would have thought, like Athraven, that cites paperwork should be sufficient - otherwise what's the point in cites????


Defra's official advice states that your Cities paperwork does not cover you in regards to EPS animals and that you will still need to obtain an EPS license for relevant animals.

However, this is misleading because if an animal is captive bred, it is exempt from the EPS licensing laws. Therefore, if your Cities paperwork states that the animal is captive bred it should be sufficient proof of origin to meet the 'balance of probabilities' requirement.

That said, there has been no official statement of any kind as to what would constitute suitable documentary evidence so signed statements from breeders, shops and dealers would also be a good idea to make sure you're covered.


----------



## Testudo Man

Tortoise article 10 certificates received a "makeover" in 2006.

Box 1 now has breeders name AND address...Box 10 has country of origin (used to be box 11) and there is a Box 20, with a sub Box which states- Certificate valid only for holder named in Box 1 (issued under Article 48(1) (d) or Regulation 865/2006

That might explain why so many people do not receive their article 10 certificates, when they first purchase their tortoises from the trade???
In Box 4 (of my article 10's) I have exact hatched date, also the parent certificate numbers.

Import certificates are rather vague in the Box 4 area, hence import tortoises true age is questionable? Although I have not seen an import article 10 recently, therefore things may have changed. Older import article 10's also had a habit of Box 1 (holder/breeder) of being tampered with ie- One name scribbled out, and another name poorly written over!

For import article 10's, Slovenia is not always the country of origin, Germany is also used (but that is another story).

I personally have not, as yet, contacted Defra, for this seasons hatchling article 10's, I always like to wait till the last egg has hatched before I do so, I just wonder if 2007 article 10's have changed, yet again :hmm:...T.T.8)


----------



## Testudo Man

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> There are quite a few tortoises on the EPS listing, l have only heard of a few of them .
> 
> With the new act, how does this affect the industry as from what l can gather, thousands of wild caughts come into the United kingdom every year - is this part of the industry set to lose out?
> 
> Or there must be established successful Uk captive breeders who can verify the proof required for continued ownership, so therefore supply of qualifiable tortoise species can continue yes?
> 
> Surely using qualitable UK CB breeders is far better than wild caughts anyway?
> 
> Or is it a price war scenario?
> 
> In so far as CB are more expensive than WC?
> 
> I just think that for all new tortoise buyers, it would l feel be better to buy from a UK seller?
> 
> R
> 
> PKL


I would love to address the contents of your post *Rory*, and have done so, on numerous occassions on this forum, but will probably just get the same old responses, from "high ranking" herp members too!...

Like- "greedy breeders", "elitists", "AR's", "I dont give a shit how many years you have put into your breeding program, your the reason why us traders buy and sell cheap (false economy) imports" etc. etc :whip:....T.T.8)


----------



## Trice

Terrific tortoise said:


> I would love to address the contents of your post *Rory*, and have done so, on numerous occassions on this forum, but will probably just get the same old responses, from "high ranking" herp members too!...
> 
> Like- "greedy breeders", "elitists", "AR's", "I dont give a shit how many years you have put into your breeding program, your the reason why us traders buy and sell cheap (false economy) imports" etc. etc :whip:....T.T.8)


Come on TT, give us your real 2cents so to speak


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier

*TT*

Hi TT, 

Does it matter what they say?

No offence is meant by this one idle statement.

However, l would like to know your views as a breeder.

I too have gone back in time and looked through various threads and writings within this forum and have seen various battles and 'crossing of swords' between breeders and buyers, and sellers and importers of the three T's, but l feel that a healthy debate can be had.

Is WC, CF, or CB the way forwards?

For long now, it has been declared that CB is the way forwards -but this does as it should travel at a higher price. When price is so imperative in todays' market, captive bred UK livestock surely is the way for the future.

There are those who disagree and state that Uk CB livestock is way too expensive, and that imports is the way - but why?

Surely all livestock that travels from abroad is going to have a problem of some sort, yet cb is regulated by the breeder, and everything is done correctly from day one. CB does not have the same stress load as WC and the seriously bad transporting, there are surely limited if no parasites present, all will travel with the correct paperwork legally and not chaffed by exporters.

This perhaps is a perilous thread, however, l do believe that it is worthy of investigation further.

And why is a chelonia post here?

Because this is a political issue, especially when there are God knows how many WC's and CF's entering British soil, what is it now, 250K per annum come into the United Kingdom?

Rory Matier

Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## Esarosa

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> There are those who disagree and state that Uk CB livestock is way too expensive, and that imports is the way - but why?
> 
> CB does not have the same stress load as WC and the seriously bad transporting, there are surely limited if no parasites present, all will travel with the correct paperwork legally and not chaffed by exporters.


From the trade point of view then UK CB may indeed be too expensive, but from the consumers point of view.. I have seen genuine UKCB horsfields for as little as a hundred pounds..yet the average price for an imported horsfield in shops (under three years of age) is £150.. The same price difference is apparant on spur-thighs and Hermanns (i know athravan is cheaper but not many are!)

Captive bred is the way foreward in my opinion as WC and imports have so many problems. My little one had a parasite load, was stressed and needed pro-biotics to get him up to scratch, post worming etc. Cost me a fortune in vets bills because I didnt know better. I do now.

With imports you don't know what they've been fed on. You don't know the majority of the time if they're WC or CF. For me a healthy tort is one fed on the correct diet with the correct conditions from day one. And to be honest i would pay more for an animal like this. The benefit from buying from breeders is they've had the animals since birth and can therefore pick up on any changes in behaviour..like lethargy for example. The trade don't have this luxury.

But like i said from a consumer point captive bred are cheaper than pet shop torts. So the argument that cb is more expensive is lost from that perspective. I thnk alot of people buy from shops rather than breeders due to not wishing to travel, or simply not being aware there are breeders out there, and thinking that it's the only way to source a tort.


Katie


----------



## peaches

For me with torts then yes it's UK CB, the rest is such a shady area that I don't want to be involved in.

As for price...well I am not one for cheap animals, I think this makes them disposable. And if you buy straight from the breeder the prices are fine.

I would have thought it would be best for a shop to contact a breeder and do some kind of deal that is both worth while to the shop and breeder??? Just thinking out loud here.

Lets face it aswell, look how much you pay and equal that to a torts life expectancy - works out quite well I think.

Then look how much some people pay for a certain dog - at the end of the day, if it's what you _really_ want and that is the price that animal is....well that's what you pay.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Heres how it works for us, we work with our local breeder we send anyone looking for a captive bred tort her way, and give them a bit of general advice etc, she gets a tortoise sale and then the potential purchaser returns to us to get any kit required (heating, lighting, vits, t-tray, t-table etc). This is worked quite well so far, next year we are looking to have some of her torts in store to sell on a commission basis.


----------



## Esarosa

That's a fantastic arrangement Pink!


----------



## toptort

Katiexx said:


> From the trade point of view then UK CB may indeed be too expensive, but from the consumers point of view.. I have seen genuine UKCB horsfields for as little as a hundred pounds..yet the average price for an imported horsfield in shops (under three years of age) is £150.. The same price difference is apparant on spur-thighs and Hermanns (i know athravan is cheaper but not many are!)
> 
> *Captive bred is the way foreward in my opinion as WC and imports have so many problems. My little one had a parasite load, was stressed and needed pro-biotics to get him up to scratch, post worming etc. Cost me a fortune in vets bills because I didnt know better. I do now.*
> 
> With imports you don't know what they've been fed on. You don't know the majority of the time if they're WC or CF. For me a healthy tort is one fed on the correct diet with the correct conditions from day one. And to be honest i would pay more for an animal like this. The benefit from buying from breeders is they've had the animals since birth and can therefore pick up on any changes in behaviour..like lethargy for example. The trade don't have this luxury.
> 
> But like i said from a consumer point captive bred are cheaper than pet shop torts. So the argument that cb is more expensive is lost from that perspective. I thnk alot of people buy from shops rather than breeders due to not wishing to travel, or simply not being aware there are breeders out there, and thinking that it's the only way to source a tort.
> 
> 
> Katie


umm well surely if these poor wc animals are like this in poor condition and overloaded with parasites then shouldn't we be hauling them in to give the best vet treatment here in the uk.
From my understanding tortoises are not native to the uk and therfore to create breeding programmes the very first torts must of been wild caught.
it must be very worrying to think that these tortoises are suffering in their own habitat under the correct diet and getting the correct uv but are in such bad condition...years ago tortoises were imported in crates in their thousands and badly shipped, these days things have changed and transport and packing regulations are enforced better.
To tell you the truth the reason why most buy from a petshop is most people don't want to face breeders interigating potential owners to see if they think they are good enough to *buy a tortoise.*
There are so many caresheets all conflicting that even i would be hesitant about talking to a breeder incase i said the wrong thing, i don't want that worry and most people don't either.


----------



## Esarosa

The problems spread due to conditions they are imported in. Not to mention different species being 'packed' together. Also the transport and packing regulations can't be that strongly enforced when they stil tie torts legs together to stop them moving.. also have u seen these images ? NOTE very distressing content Shelled Warriors :: View topic - SHOCKING IMAGES OF TORTOISES INSIDE - LOOK WITH CAUTION

And yes that does sound intimidating (in regards to breeders) but if it helps you find out the correct info then more the better for it.

For example when i got Deemo i gave buttercups as a treat.my aunts n mother had given it their torts years before with no seemingly ill effects..however i was told that it was toxic to them n to stop..so i did..i wouldn't have known that if i hadn't asked breeders n keepers alike.


I admit there are lots of conflicting care sheets..n it wasnt till i found this site n TT that i was doing everything perfectly. I THOUGHT i was but the information given was all wrong.

it's like a minefield


----------



## toptort

Katiexx said:


> The problems spread due to conditions they are imported in. Not to mention different species being 'packed' together. Also the transport and packing regulations can't be that strongly enforced when they stil tie torts legs together to stop them moving.. also have u seen these images ? NOTE very distressing content Shelled Warriors :: View topic - SHOCKING IMAGES OF TORTOISES INSIDE - LOOK WITH CAUTION
> 
> And yes that does sound intimidating (in regards to breeders) but if it helps you find out the correct info then more the better for it.
> 
> For example when i got Deemo i gave buttercups as a treat.my aunts n mother had given it their torts years before with no seemingly ill effects..however i was told that it was toxic to them n to stop..so i did..i wouldn't have known that if i hadn't asked breeders n keepers alike.
> 
> 
> I admit there are lots of conflicting care sheets..n it wasnt till i found this site n TT that i was doing everything perfectly. I THOUGHT i was but the information given was all wrong.
> 
> it's like a minefield


yes and very bad pictures they are however there is only 2 pics(not dated) and therfore if this is the only two then regulations must be having some impact.
But the problem is not every breeder gives the correct info, you all have different ways and even breeders of tortoises stab other breeders in the back and run them down, no one can put their point across it's either their way or no way, sorry but it's true, iv'e been watching the tortoise threads for weeks no thread seems to run for long until it turns into a argument.
As for shops importing them in they do so because breeders won't sell to them, if more breeders sold to them they would have no need to look elsewhere..i'm sorry if this offends breeders but you actually make the whole import problem worse by acting like this.
Lizard breeders sell hence why there are not many imports so why can't tortoise breeders for the sake of the tortoise health and survival.
The reason why most breeders say they don't is because they can't vet the potential owner however most people won't fork out a £100 + on a wim and will have read up on info and searched the web for advice before purchasing a tortoise.


----------



## Esarosa

Yes tortoise breeders like to vet homes or see that people at least have a clue..but to me that's fine, if u have nothin to hide n want to learn what is the problem.

trust me people buy them on a whim. my cousin went out n bought a leopard tortoise of all things on a whim. shop owner told her they stayed tiny n she believed him. i've since corrected her n helped her get everythin set up for the tort. n hopefully he'll be a happy lil boy

Was in my old rep shop buying bits n bobs lik nutrobal n some kids came in with their mum goin 'aw mum look' u kno the usual.

Little girl about eleven maybe, mithered her mum n said look mum can I have one pleeeeasse... her mother said ok then,we'll put your birthday money towards that instead of clothes if u want? ..is that not buyin on a whim? She asked what they ate pet shop said t-rex tortoise pellets (bare in mind it was a hermanns n the pellets are high in protein) n fruit n veg. Another case where i had to pull her aside n explain the reality gently...weeds, nutrobal, limestone flour..the usual. She was fine once i told her. But said her girl wanted it now so she wouldnt have time to find a table so the viv the shop offered would do:bash:

Also yes the tortoise forum does hav a tendancy to kick off..but thats mainly because people don't want to listen to advice given..plus a certain member openly admits to stirring it up deliberately.


----------



## Testudo Man

Trice said:


> Come on TT, give us your real 2cents so to speak


No *Trice*, I will not be drawn :Na_Na_Na_Na:...

On a lighter note, here is a cutesy photo for you...thats a UK/CB tort emerging from its egg and sayin hi! : victory:...T.T.8)


----------



## Testudo Man

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi TT,
> 
> Does it matter what they say?
> 
> No offence is meant by this one idle statement.
> 
> However, l would like to know your views as a breeder.
> 
> I too have gone back in time and looked through various threads and writings within this forum and have seen various battles and 'crossing of swords' between breeders and buyers, and sellers and importers of the three T's, but l feel that a healthy debate can be had.
> 
> Is WC, CF, or CB the way forwards?
> 
> For long now, it has been declared that CB is the way forwards -but this does as it should travel at a higher price. When price is so imperative in todays' market, captive bred UK livestock surely is the way for the future.
> 
> There are those who disagree and state that Uk CB livestock is way too expensive, and that imports is the way - but why?
> 
> Surely all livestock that travels from abroad is going to have a problem of some sort, yet cb is regulated by the breeder, and everything is done correctly from day one. CB does not have the same stress load as WC and the seriously bad transporting, there are surely limited if no parasites present, all will travel with the correct paperwork legally and not chaffed by exporters.
> 
> This perhaps is a perilous thread, however, l do believe that it is worthy of investigation further.
> 
> And why is a chelonia post here?
> 
> Because this is a political issue, especially when there are God knows how many WC's and CF's entering British soil, what is it now, 250K per annum come into the United Kingdom?
> 
> Rory Matier
> 
> Pro Keepers Lobby


250K per annum of young/baby torts imported to the UK is a very frightening figure indeed.

Now when you also add to that, huge numbers of W/C adult/subadult torts being shipped to America (yearly) from the latest "middle east" Jordan (Not all of the tortoises are native to Jordan though, they come into Jordan from neighbouring North African countries...before that-Slovenia 05 to 06, The Slovenian connection has since ceased? I wounder why?!...before that- Libya...before that- Lebanon....nearly forgot- Egypt-1992 to 1995 (can you see a pattern emerging here :hmm:?!) then going right back to the early 1980's- Turkey.

Now the UK in 1984, as I understand it, placed Hermanni, Spur thighed (Graeca's), Marginata, Kleinmanni (Egyptian) etc. on the endangered species list (C.T.I.E.S.), and banned the importation, hence the need for article 10's.
Has the ban been lifted? Are those torts mentioned, still endangered? Do those torts mentioned, still require Defra article 10's?

You really have to ask yourselves, is there a never ending supply of Mediterranean/North african torts being plundered still?!

As for those breeding farms in Slovenia (hermanns) has anyone actually got any evidence of there existance?, for the import numbers being suggested, they would have to be on a gigantic scale, and many many farms, to produce such numbers.

This has been mentioned before, the time scale involved, in a hatchling tort to breeding/egg laying age, is beyond 10 years.
Even then, the females would only lay, possibly a small clutch of up to 6 eggs? she may only lay 1 to 2 clutches maximum per year? Not every egg will be fertile either! You do the maths! how many hundreds/thousands of adult torts are required to produce all the imports? Of course, another question you have to ask yourself is were did all the adult torts come from to be placed in these breeding farms in the 1st place?!

No wonder Slovenia has stopped exporting W/C subadults/adults to America!...There running "low" on the poor buggers! :x...T.T.8)


----------



## Testudo Man

toptort said:


> umm well surely if these poor wc animals are like this in poor condition and overloaded with parasites then shouldn't we be hauling them in to give the best vet treatment here in the uk.
> From my understanding tortoises are not native to the uk and therfore to create breeding programmes the very first torts must of been wild caught.
> it must be very worrying to think that these tortoises are suffering in their own habitat under the correct diet and getting the correct uv but are in such bad condition...years ago tortoises were imported in crates in their thousands and badly shipped, these days things have changed and transport and packing regulations are enforced better.
> To tell you the truth the reason why most buy from a petshop is most people don't want to face breeders interigating potential owners to see if they think they are good enough to *buy a tortoise.*
> There are so many caresheets all conflicting that even i would be hesitant about talking to a breeder incase i said the wrong thing, i don't want that worry and most people don't either.


Blimey, after just joining this forum you had made just 6 posts, you find your way to this section??? Some long term members are not aware of this sub-forum yet...well done.: victory:

Judging by the contents of your posts, I would imagine you to be quite young?...
There are numerous points in your posts that confuse me somewhat?...Were do I start?!...Interrogating UK breeders for 1st time owners?, UK Breeders stabbing each others backs?, UK Breeders to blame for imports?...to name but a few!.

Shall we start with the "UK Interrogator"? because to be honest, the other 2 points of yours I have highlighted, are clearly laughable.:lol2:

I have had numerous "Scammers" contact me regarding my torts (havent we all)...I have had literally 100's of (how shall I word this?) Dreamers, Messers, Time wasters, and me old favourite...The Tyre Kicker!...Lets not forget a Psycho Nurse who duped me once, and sold on a hatchling for a large profit (oh she was gooooooooooooooood:crazy...were was I?...ah yes "Interrogation"

Here is a link to an advert I placed in the shelled classified http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/shelled-classifieds/43350-tortoises-uk-cb-please-read.html 

Please be my guest, go take a read, tell me your thoughts...I am willing to take onboard any sensible suggestions you may have to offer...T.T.8)

PS. I must confess to update my care sheets though :icon_redface:, tortoise husbandry (like any other species husbandry) is forever evolving.


----------



## wizzasmum

Well I for one would gladly apply for licenses but it's another case of the law being an ass. It's bollocks if the powers that be think this will make things any more legit than it is right now. Traders will still buy from Slovenia and torts will continue to suffer, so will a few genuine breeders - that's the only difference the way I am looking at this!
Knew I should have stayed in bed.:-x


----------



## Trice

Terrific tortoise said:


> No *Trice*, I will not be drawn :Na_Na_Na_Na:...
> 
> On a lighter note, here is a cutesy photo for you...thats a UK/CB tort emerging from its egg and sayin hi! : victory:...T.T.8)


wow.. Stunning. Can i have her/him?

See! i knew you'd give your 2 cents TT. Now.. I need to have a read of all these pages


----------



## wizzasmum

error


----------



## wizzasmum

wizzasmum said:


> http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g118/wizzasmum/egg.jpg
> 
> And another captive bred UK tort. No contamination, no stressful journey having been plucked from the wild and now called Phoebe and living in Newcastle where she is loved and cared for.


----------



## purejurrasic

As I see it, all this is pretty irrelevent any way !

The EPS law states that ANY species on the list has to be licensed. 

To obtain said license you need to be able to prove that the animal is not WC within EU in the last 13 years.

You also need to explain why you have that animal, where you obtained it, what your going to do with it, and why there is no other more suitable place for it. You also need to supply 2 references of knowledgable folk who can vouch for why you have the animal.

This is NOT just hearsay, NOT scaremongering, NOT make belive, and NOT restricted to specific areas of interest. 

It affects not just reptiles, but the whole range.

Now, in relation to torts, its already agreed that artical 10's are not proof of origin, so why would they be acceptable by NE as such? I would have thought if the govenment agencies had faith and trust in each other then the article 10's would be acceptable. We all know they shouldnt be !

As yet, I am not aware of any one who has applied for an EPS licence, or the outcome, and with what documentry evidence.

Now, any new law can not be regarded as water tight untill tested in court. However, right now, ANY one of us who may have an EPS listed animal stands the risk of being that test case. Can you afford that? I know I cant.

Thats why the different societies and federations and lobby groups are trying to bring to the govenments attention the fact that those who drafted and passed the laws have not given it sufficent thought in what the EPS is trying to do and how it does it.

So, in conclusion, artical 10's or not, you still need an EPS licence for EACH listed animal.


And before anyone says it, I know, we all know, its a complete ass of a law, so what are we going to do about it?


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

The species only need to be licensed if they were wild caught after 1994



> To obtain said license you need to be able to prove that the animal is not WC within EU in the last 13 years


If you could prove this you wouldnt need a license, The licence is giving the keeper the "legal" right to own a wild caught specimen caught after 1994. Any captive bred or wild caught specimen pre 1994 is exempt from requiring a licence.



> You also need to explain why you have that animal, where you obtained it, what your going to do with it, and why there is no other more suitable place for it. You also need to supply 2 references of knowledgable folk who can vouch for why you have the animal.


Again this only applies to wild caught specimens obtained after 1994. 



> So, in conclusion, artical 10's or not, you still need an EPS licence for EACH listed animal.


No you dont, you only need apply for a license if you have a EPS listed species that was wild caught after 1994.

I do not want this post to be taken as "point scoring" against previous posters, But I have been reading and re reading this legislation the past few weeks trying to understand the ins and outs and believe its important that any confusions are cleared up amongst ourselves.

The bit that affects all keepers of an EPS listed species is that there is a reverse burden of proof. In plain english this means that if you own an EPS species and IF YOU ARE CHALLENGED as to the legal status of your animal then the law will assume it is wild caught and that you are guilty, so you either have to prove its been in your care since and before 1994 or that it is captive bred. You will not have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, but you will have to prove it on a balance of probabilities. This means you have to prove that what you are saying is more likely to be true than not. Effectively this makes every animal on the list illegal to own - But you do not need to apply for a licence unless you actually knowingly know that your animal is Wild caught after 1994. You can carry on living your life knowing that your animals are CB or WC pre 1994, BUT should you ever face prosecution under this act the onus is on you to prove that they are CB or WC pre 1994.


----------



## wizzasmum

pink said:


> The species only need to be licensed if they were wild caught after 1994
> 
> 
> 
> If you could prove this you wouldnt need a license, The licence is giving the keeper the "legal" right to own a wild caught specimen caught after 1994. Any captive bred or wild caught specimen pre 1994 is exempt from requiring a licence.
> 
> 
> 
> Again this only applies to wild caught specimens obtained after 1994.
> 
> 
> 
> No you dont, you only need apply for a license if you have a EPS listed species that was wild caught after 1994.
> 
> I do not want this post to be taken as "point scoring" against previous posters, But I have been reading and re reading this legislation the past few weeks trying to understand the ins and outs and believe its important that any confusions are cleared up amongst ourselves.
> 
> The bit that affects all keepers of an EPS listed species is that there is a reverse burden of proof. In plain english this means that if you own an EPS species and IF YOU ARE CHALLENGED as to the legal status of your animal then the law will assume it is wild caught and that you are guilty, so you either have to prove its been in your care since and before 1994 or that it is captive bred. You will not have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, but you will have to prove it on a balance of probabilities. This means you have to prove that what you are saying is more likely to be true than not. Effectively this makes every animal on the list illegal to own - But you do not need to apply for a licence unless you actually knowingly know that your animal is Wild caught after 1994. You can carry on living your life knowing that your animals are CB or WC pre 1994, BUT should you ever face prosecution under this act the onus is on you to prove that they are CB or WC pre 1994.


That's right! Those in the know have stated that it is nothing for us to get steamed up about if we have not been trading in WC tortoises after this time. So those of us with a conscience have not got a problem


----------



## Ssthisto

wizzasmum said:


> That's right! Those in the know have stated that it is nothing for us to get steamed up about if we have not been trading in WC tortoises after this time. So those of us with a conscience have not got a problem


Gee, thanks, Wizzasmum.

I have certainly got a conscience - my animals are UNKNOWN origin with no paperwork. We could not say whether they were CB, WC, CF or any other status - because we got them from a private keeper who had gotten them from someone else who had gotten them elsewhere. And MY animals do not even have the protection of an Article 10 certificate - they are not even listed on the CITES annexes!

What happens to your "nothing to get steamed up about" if they decide that your Article 10 saying that your tortoise is CB is not proof enough?


----------



## Onissarle

wizzasmum said:


> That's right! Those in the know have stated that it is nothing for us to get steamed up about if we have not been trading in WC tortoises after this time. So those of us with a conscience have not got a problem


You're lucky. Tortoises have the article 10 paperwork, which will probably be considered enough proof of origin if it lists them as captive bred. However, from what I understand, there is a massive trade in imported tortoises with paperwork listing them as CB that are probably WC with falsified papers. If the relevant authorities are aware of this, which they probably are, they may require additional documentary evidence for people with CITES paperwork from places like Slovenia. We really won't know until it's tested.

For everyone with one of the hundreds of species not covered by the CITES paperwork, there is NO official documentation to prove origin. Even a tenth generation captive bred animal will probably have no documentary evidence proving its origin. Yes, it only matters if you're challenged but it also only matters if you're driving a stolen car if you're challenged. Pretty much all crime only matters if someone actually challenges you about it. Government bodies are unlikely to actively pursue you but the RSPCA and antis can use it to great effect.

For more detail on the reality of the situation, you should take a look at the 'EPS - Inevitable or Incompetent' article.


----------



## wizzasmum

Ssthisto said:


> Gee, thanks, Wizzasmum.
> 
> 
> 
> What happens to your "nothing to get steamed up about" if they decide that your Article 10 saying that your tortoise is CB is not proof enough?


 
When you think of the sheer volume of tortoises and other animals this will apply to it's not possible to do much at all about it. I also have some torts that this applies to. I have a rehomer from Devon from four years back that I did not get papers for and have lost touch with the seller who has since moved house. Also I have four little ones I bred myself but didn ot get papers for as I ahd no intention of selling. I suppose DNA would prove this case but who is going to pay for all this DNA testing - it's ridiculous.


----------



## purejurrasic

I am not looking to score points either, but you said it yourself, you gota PROVE the origin, and with out doing so, you need to licence the animal.

BUT, I will say, I may have a missunderstanding, so may others, so if you got an affected animal, go ahead and apply for a licence, I hope I am getting steamed up about nothing.

I am lucky, the only animal I though would be affected is not even on the list !


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

This law is not saying "we are assuming your animals are wild caught because you cant prove origins therefore you need a licence" 

It is saying "If your animals are WC after 1994 you need a licence, If youve got these animals even if they are CB and you havent got a license and we take you to court then we will assume they are wild caught and if you cant prove otherwise we will fine you and dispose of your animals" 

heres my example so people can try and get their heads round this EPS, perhaps this should be a seperate thread?

I own three Ocellated skinks, They are on the list. I know that they are captive bred therefore *I do not need to apply for a licence to own them*. 

However - I know they are captive bred But I cannot prove they are captive bred beyond a shadow of a doubt, I have no documentary evidence. All I have is my word and the word of the person that bred them. It is as yet untested if this would satisfy the balance of probabilities -is my account of events more likely than that they had been Wild caught.

*I still do not need to apply for a licence as this is only concerned with licencing WC specimens*, even though the law would assume mine were WC if facing prosecution,

*Anyone can now acuse me of owning illegal specimens* and If I were to face prosecution for owning these animals I would have to prove otherwise. 

Example two.. 

I also have some really old spur thigh torts, passed down via a contact who was friends with their now deceased previous owner who had had them for eons. 

These are wild caught animals, caught many many many years ago, They are wild caught, I know they are wild caught before 1994, *I therefore do not need to apply for a licence* 

However I cant prove they are pre 94 wild caught, Would the court believe my tale of inheritence or would they believe they have been recently (post 1994) caught.?

*Anyone can now acuse me of owning illegal specimens* and If I were to face prosecution for owning these animals I would have to prove otherwise. 


These are both real examples, so I have the possibility of facing prosecution on two counts, and on the tortoise count I am sure I am not alone.


----------



## purejurrasic

I may have miss worded my first post, and may have had a slight missunderstanding, but the fact is, IF you own any animal on that list, you could end up in court having to prove its origins, I think we are both agreed on that.

And no one yet knows how strong that proof will need to be.


----------



## Chris Newman

pink said:


> This law is not saying "we are assuming your animals are wild caught because you cant prove origins therefore you need a licence"
> 
> It is saying "If your animals are WC after 1994 you need a licence, If youve got these animals even if they are CB and you havent got a license and we take you to court then we will assume they are wild caught and if you cant prove otherwise we will fine you and dispose of your animals"
> 
> heres my example so people can try and get their heads round this EPS, perhaps this should be a seperate thread?
> 
> I own three Ocellated skinks, They are on the list. I know that they are captive bred therefore *I do not need to apply for a licence to own them*.
> 
> However - I know they are captive bred But I cannot prove they are captive bred beyond a shadow of a doubt, I have no documentary evidence. All I have is my word and the word of the person that bred them. It is as yet untested if this would satisfy the balance of probabilities -is my account of events more likely than that they had been Wild caught.
> 
> *I still do not need to apply for a licence as this is only concerned with licencing WC specimens*, even though the law would assume mine were WC if facing prosecution,
> 
> *Anyone can now acuse me of owning illegal specimens* and If I were to face prosecution for owning these animals I would have to prove otherwise.
> 
> Example two..
> 
> I also have some really old spur thigh torts, passed down via a contact who was friends with their now deceased previous owner who had had them for eons.
> 
> These are wild caught animals, caught many many many years ago, They are wild caught, I know they are wild caught before 1994, *I therefore do not need to apply for a licence*
> 
> However I cant prove they are pre 94 wild caught, Would the court believe my tale of inheritence or would they believe they have been recently (post 1994) caught.?
> 
> *Anyone can now acuse me of owning illegal specimens* and If I were to face prosecution for owning these animals I would have to prove otherwise.
> 
> 
> These are both real examples, so I have the possibility of facing prosecution on two counts, and on the tortoise count I am sure I am not alone.


Sorry this is not correct. The law WILL assume the animals are of wild origin if you cannot prove they are captive bred. In both examples that you give if you were to be prosecuted you have no defence - this is the fundamental problem.

This is not dissimilar to the COTES regulations which requires you to prove that any CITES Appendix II (Annex B) species in your possession were acquired lawful, this includes captive bred specimens which have been bred within the EU. You have to prove the parents were acquired lawfully! There have been several occasions where people have had animals seized under this regulations, yet there animals were clearly lawful but as it could not be proved by the relevant CITES, because DEFRA could not issue them, they lost there animals!


----------



## Ssthisto

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry this is not correct. The law WILL assume the animals are of wild origin if you cannot prove they are captive bred. In both examples that you give if you were to be prosecuted you have no defence - this is the fundamental problem.
> 
> This is not dissimilar to the COTES regulations which requires you to prove that any CITES Appendix II (Annex B) species in your possession were acquired lawful, this includes captive bred specimens which have been bred within the EU. You have to prove the parents were acquired lawfully! There have been several occasions where people have had animals seized under this regulations, yet there animals were clearly lawful but as it could not be proved by the relevant CITES, because DEFRA could not issue them, they lost there animals!


Chris, this is the first I've heard that the COTES Annex B issues actually went through... I thought they were a PLANNED thing but had been delayed or refused somewhere along the way. 

This affects half of my collection if the ruling is like the EPS situation... I can't PROVE my rainbow boas, tegus, royals or sand boas were captive bred in the EU, nor that their parents were lawfully acquired...


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

> I may have miss worded my first post, and may have had a slight missunderstanding, but the fact is, IF you own any animal on that list, you could end up in court having to prove its origins, I think we are both agreed on that.
> 
> And no one yet knows how strong that proof will need to be.


Agreed



> Sorry this is not correct. The law WILL assume the animals are of wild origin if you cannot prove they are captive bred. In both examples that you give if you were to be prosecuted you have no defence - this is the fundamental problem


I think thats pretty much what my post states... 



> This law is not saying "we are assuming your animals are wild caught because you cant prove origins- therefore you need a licence"
> 
> It is saying "If your animals are WC after 1994 you need a licence, If youve got these animals even if they are CB and you havent got a license and we take you to court then we will assume they are wild caught and if you cant prove otherwise we will fine you and dispose of your animals"


The reason behind my post is that when i first heard about this act, i was worried i would have to go out and get licenses, I have since learnt I dont. I just dont have much of a leg to stand on if I were facing prosecution.


----------



## Testudo Man

*'Balance of probabilities'*...:hmm:

In the case of tortoises, it just might be easier? to prove the actual history/age, by the appearence of the tortoise?, in regards to wether it is a pre or post 1994 animal. If the current keeper of the said tortoise does not have sufficient proof of history, as in- signed and dated documentation of the tortoises previous owner/owners. Could the current keeper obtain a written probable age, from a recognised source of chelonia experts/vets, through- average measurements/weight of species/overall appearence etc, thereby going some way in meeting the challenge to prove the 'balance of probabilites'?

As an example, here is a photo of *"Phil",* I rescued this tortoise at least 5 years ago (I do have the exact date written somewhere!) he is a large adult Spur Thiged male, you will also note that he has suffered some damage through being attacked by a large dog (but that is another story!) As a result of the dog attack he needed vetinary treatment/after care.

I do not have any paperwork for Phil...Is the previous keeper still at the same address?...Although Defra has Phils details, I do not have an article 10 for him.

If it came to court, what I do have is- Witnesses that were with me when I rescued Phil, documented evidence/dates from the vet, Photographs/dates showing Phils slow physical recovery, Photographs of Phil when he was first rescued (which show clearly that he was then an adult tortoise), The verbal history of the previous keeper, stating that they had owned Phil for at least 27 years, and he was not a baby when they came to own him...And of course, in my own opinion, going by the appearence of Phil, his carapace shows such a smoothness, only obtainable (in the majority of cases) by being that of one of the early W/C tortoises, way before 1994.

Furthemore, I could also produce (if required) signed statements of the probable age of Phil, from fellow tortoise keepers (world wide) with upto 30 years in keeping tortoises...T.T.8)

*Note*- Phil's case would seem relatively easy (in my opinion) to prove he was pre 1994, I do recognise that other tortoise cases may not be as easy to prove, but I would hope that fellow tort keepers would gain some "food for thought" from this: victory:


----------



## purejurrasic

I agree with you TT, but its govenment agencies we are talking about here, what are the chances they know anythingthing about ageing a tortoise?


----------



## Schip

Can I ask why you don't DNA profile all your torts like some of us in dogs do?

I have in the past used DNA to prove ancestory of my parrots and dogs, its only £15 per dog and is kept by the KC for future referrence should any owner or other breeder accuse us of false pedigree's.

Actually used DNA for sexing as well as disease testing and colour coat testing even in my dogs, hasten to add the sexing was of my macaws, amazons and greys NOT the dogs lol


----------



## Snakes r grreat

Chris Newman said:


> Sorry this is not correct. The law WILL assume the animals are of wild origin if you cannot prove they are captive bred. In both examples that you give if you were to be prosecuted you have no defence - this is the fundamental problem.
> 
> This is not dissimilar to the COTES regulations which requires you to prove that any CITES Appendix II (Annex B) species in your possession were acquired lawful, this includes captive bred specimens which have been bred within the EU. You have to prove the parents were acquired lawfully! There have been several occasions where people have had animals seized under this regulations, yet there animals were clearly lawful but as it could not be proved by the relevant CITES, because DEFRA could not issue them,* they lost there animals*!


*Chris*, any idea what happened to these animals once they were seized?


----------



## Chris Newman

A very good question: Under the EPS regs I assume the most common species would be euthanased as most zoos etc would not want them, bear in mind Natural England’s comments “donate specimens to your local museum” – most museums don’t keep live specimens! Until we see the first seizures it is difficult to give you a more defined answer. 

Under COTES animals seized are usually offered to zoos or sanctuaries, sometimes with the more common species to recognised societies, i.e. private individuals. The disposal of some animals under the COTES regs are very unsatisfactory, sometimes in the enthusiasm to enforce the law, the actual welfare of the animals becomes secondary, sometimes leading to the unnecessary death of valuable (not necessarily in monitory terms) specimens.

As the law stands today if an offence is committed under COTES the authorities have no choose but to seize and dispose of the animal concerned. This applies even if the offence was unwitting and if removing the animal will be detrimental to its welfare. There will be a review of the COTES legislation again next year, I will continue to push for changes that would, in exceptional circumstances, allow the animal to remain with the keeper if an offence has been committed. All it needs is one word to be changes ‘must’ to be replaced by ‘should’ – not much top ask is it!


----------



## Snakes r grreat

Chris Newman said:


> A very good question: Under the EPS regs I assume the most common species would be euthanased as most zoos etc would not want them, bear in mind Natural England’s comments “donate specimens to your local museum” – most museums don’t keep live specimens! Until we see the first seizures it is difficult to give you a more defined answer.
> 
> Under COTES animals seized are usually offered to zoos or sanctuaries, sometimes with the more common species to recognised societies, i.e. private individuals. The disposal of some animals under the COTES regs are very unsatisfactory, sometimes in the enthusiasm to enforce the law, the actual welfare of the animals becomes secondary, sometimes leading to the unnecessary death of valuable (not necessarily in monitory terms) specimens.
> 
> As the law stands today if an offence is committed under COTES the authorities have no choose but to seize and dispose of the animal concerned. This applies even if the offence was unwitting and if removing the animal will be detrimental to its welfare. There will be a review of the COTES legislation again next year, I will continue to push for changes that would, in exceptional circumstances, allow the animal to remain with the keeper if an offence has been committed. All it needs is one word to be changes ‘must’ to be replaced by ‘should’ – *not much to ask is it!*


 
Thanks Chris, doesnt sound like alot to ask no, but i sense you will have a tough job getting them to do it.


----------

