# Warning About the RSPCA



## tigger79

This is a warning to all animal keepers, wether it be herps or mammals,

The RSPCA are going around and Knocking on doors of peoplewho own animals, They are saying that they are advising people on the changes of the Animal Welfare Bill, in particular about sizes of cages/tanks, 

I have put this up as i have been speaking to friends of mine who had a visit from the RSPCA today, who has told them that all of there cages for their gerbils and rats are inadequate, The inspector told them the required size of a cage should be 60x36x24 for upto 6 rats and have to have toys/wood to chew in them, and the lab/breeding cages are inadequate. before leaving the inspector told them that he will be back in 30 days to see if they have started to change the cages and if no changes have been made, they would go to jail, 

My friends are an old couple and have over 20 years experience keeping/breeding rodent and herp, They are both concerned about this and are panicky as they are on a low income,

I have spoken to Wohic and Nerys about this and have reassured them that they have nothing to worry about as Nerys has given me the following link which is very useful and imformative, 

The Shg for Farmers, Pet Owners and Others Experiencing Difficulties with the RSPCA

I would like to offer to every one else to see as it tells you what you should do if they turn up on your doorstep, and what your legal rights are,this is also not a thread for people to start bitching on, so only positive comments please, 


If possible could a mod sticky this so it stays at the top for every one to see and to refer to.


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## cornmorphs

good info, i'll bang it on sticky


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## tigger79

THanks Nige


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## cornmorphs

no probs mate.. all good stuff


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## tokay

R.S.P.C.A are a bunch of money grabbing [email protected]*kers imho
never liked them never will


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## babyburm

Excellent information, a must read article!


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## yellow_python

I havent had a look at the website yet, just about to.

Has it been updated since the animal welfare bill came in, which gives them more power?


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## dani11983

Grew up watching Animal Hospital thinking the RSPCA was great and that they did a brilliat job. They do in some cases. But the more I read around the more my opinions are changing.


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## tigger79

it doesnt give them more power as they are a charity and have no special legal powers, unless they go and get the police involved


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## DeanThorpe

I think they have been watchin to much animal planet [the rspca er.. offciers?]
I was thinking maybe they have been scoulded for saying certain things are "ok" and have been told to be more vigilante and have gone OTT or have had a bad "crash course teacher/advisor"
BUT none of that would explain why an rspca guy would assume that he would actually be able to HAND OUT A SENTENCE lol.. they think they arer judges now too?
crazy ,now reading the article.


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## JAM3S

interesting stuff if not a bit scary.


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## ian_lawton

:S so there going to check everysingle house in the uk to make sure every animal is in the right cage etc etc???
what a f***in waste of money lol

im confussed about this whole thing


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## yellow_rat_gal

well they wont find us - we live in the middle of nowhere! hehe

seriously though, it's all getting a lil twiglight zone/big brother with the rspca, I wonder what rolf harris would say about all this...


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## Herp Awareness

Hey theres some very interesting information there...would you mind if i put this up on my site...as it could prove useful to other keepers...

regards Dal...


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## yellow_python

Interesting read, glad this has been brought to our attention.


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## DeanThorpe

There are lots of broken links on that site fromt he main page after the first 4 0r 5 articles... or is it just my comp or timing etc?


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

I cant even get on the bloomin site!


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## monkeygirl

is it me or does that link not work?

http://the-shg.org/

right?


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

Doesnt work for me either, if you google "the shg" it gives you same link and still doesnt work. Server's down!

Any chance someone could do a summary?


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## monkeygirl

yeah could someone summaries it so we can get the gist until the site it back up please?


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## ratboy

I think you were a bit quick off the mark in telling them that they have nothing to worry about. The fact is they *do *have something to worry about... *we all do*.

*The RSPCA will be/are controlling the AWB*. Once there is a code of practice in place which determines the size of rodent cages then they are correct... you will be breaking the law if you have them in anything smaller. They can then come back with the police and a warrant, which they will get and demand access to your animals. The same goes for vivariums when they get the sizes for those passed under another code of practise.

This is old news ... some of us have been saying it is going to happen for years ... why does it take the RSPCA knocking on doors and scaring people before people start believing it ?


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## monkeygirl

so is their a list of the legal sizes they recomend then or do they just expect us to guess?


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

Don't bite my head off but is there an article anywhere that states that RSPCA inspectors "are" knocking door to door? Because no offense to the thread starter, but it was a word of mouth message. 

If I'm wrong send me a link


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## ratboy

monkeygirl said:


> so is their a list of the legal sizes they recomend then or do they just expect us to guess?


Not yet, but there will be. They are called Codes of Practice and there will be one covering each species kept as pets in the UK.


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## Schip

RSPCA Animadversion

Try this site been a while since I posted it on here but there are links to other useful sites for information plus a link to an independant reptile trade report funded by the RSPCA who's findings were not to the societies liking even back in the 90's.

They make me extremely angry few if any good is done by this charity, most of the food you donate does not go to the animals in their care believe me they don't want it. They are a charity and have no more right to enter your home than any other private individual and can only bring charges against you if the police do the charging or they take out a civil action! 

Just say NO if they come calling and want to inspect your animals tell them to come back with a warrant and the police to gain entry you don't allow hawkers/sales people over your threashold!


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## monkeygirl

so what are we supposed to do? i just looked up online and it said this;

_DEFRA has indicated that it will make legal *one day fairs*, at which exotic animals such as reptiles and birds will be on sale (such fairs may also include dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs and other animals). At the moment, these events are illegal under the Pet Animals Act 1951/83, which prohibits the sale of pet animals in public places._ 

so is like HAMM illegal or something?

i want to make sure im getting things right now as im going to build a rack for my geckos (leos) and i dont want to have to redo it later on so what should i be doing now to ensure i comply with the law? this seems a bit odd really they they are putting so much time, effort and money into like a small difference in cage size when they should be out there finding the people who beat their dogs or are actually CREWL to thier animals?!


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## monkeygirl

but surely if you say no then they will think that you have something to hide and get a warrent and come back and what if you were like a few cm of the legal tank size and they jail you for it!


(i dont know if its my net being stinky...which it is....but i cant open that link either...)


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

Thanks, I sifted through the RSPCA site, and the page on animal welfare page simply outlines a basic code for Must have ample space, natural behaviour, diet and fresh water etc. 

I'm not allowing entry to my home without warrant. 
Anybody have any extremely large and hungry retics? maybe they should letthe inspectors in?


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## Testudo Man

Yep, I had a couple of them knock on my door recently...

They seemed to be laughing quite loud, the guy started his speech, I interrupted him (firm, but not rude!)...and said that right at this moment, I did not have a great deal of time to talk...goodbye...*T.T.*8)

As a side note, because I breed cities II torts, I have to be registered with defra, and defra can come and inspect any time they choose...


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## DeanThorpe

monkeygirl said:


> so what are we supposed to do? i just looked up online and it said this;
> 
> _DEFRA has indicated that it will make legal *one day fairs*, at which exotic animals such as reptiles and birds will be on sale (such fairs may also include dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs and other animals). At the moment, these events are illegal under the Pet Animals Act 1951/83, which prohibits the sale of pet animals in public places._
> 
> so is like HAMM illegal or something?
> 
> i want to make sure im getting things right now as im going to build a rack for my geckos (leos) and i dont want to have to redo it later on so what should i be doing now to ensure i comply with the law? this seems a bit odd really they they are putting so much time, effort and money into like a small difference in cage size when they should be out there finding the people who beat their dogs or are actually CREWL to thier animals?!


I think when a place is rented out and/or charges entry its not the same sort of "public place" though... i dont think.. cos that would include pet shops wouldnt it? so it must mean just like outside in a park or street.


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## monkeygirl

so me having them in a rack in boxes with, food and water bowls, hides and a himid hide will be fine?


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## monkeygirl

oh right i see. lol so you cant go down a back alley, set up a stall and sell your reptiles lol


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

Aslong as you provide your best possible car for you animals you are doing nothing wrong, it will then be up to them to say your cage is too small for example, thats when you enlarge it.


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## ratboy

The AWB only covers England so Hamm is not affected.

The only thing you can say about racking systems is that until the CoP's are in place nobody knows if they are complying with the law or not. But if it turns out you are not... then you can be made to change it.

You can contact FOCAS at FOCAS: the animal welfare bill to monitor what is going on with the AWB and the pro-keepers lobby if you are interested in getting involved and doing something about it at Pro Keepers Lobby | "Left Wing Right Politics!"


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## monkeygirl

do they even know what they are on about though? arnt they just as bad as most pet shops?

can someone like copy and paste the website or something or can noone open it?


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## ratboy

monkeygirl said:


> do they even know what they are on about though? arnt they just as bad as most pet shops?
> 
> can someone like copy and paste the website or something or can noone open it?


No the RSPCA do not generally know what they are on about when it comes to reptiles, they rely on appointed people to tell them ... this is why people have been so concerned about what is happening for a number of years.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

The website is now back up and running


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## tigger79

the idea of this thread was to warn people about their right and what to do if the RSPCA turn up on their doorsteps, 

as the site says, unless they have good reason and have the police present with a warrant you do not have to let them into your house or answer their questions


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## tigger79

the law and the rspca,
The Law and the RSPCA By Dr.Barry Peachey

Your legal rights,
Basic legal advice for pet owners

these are the main 2 links on the site to read


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## monkeygirl

why are they going to come to my house anyway? wont they only come if you are reported for neglect or cruelty or something?


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## captaincaveman

Has anyone posted this on any of the other uk forums, reptile and non-reptile?


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## tigger79

They are goin around and knocking on peoples doors if they know that they have animal, even if there has been no complaint, 

My friend is known to the RSPCA as she has 20+ years experience with reptiles and she had been on TV and met various expert animal presenters, she is also well known in the town as the snake lady, therefore with this info they went and knocked on her door, i also know they have knocked on other peoples door in the area that are known to people on this site,


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## tigger79

CCM - no i havent, feel free to put it on others.

Herp Awareness - feel free to put on your forum


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## monkeygirl

this kind of scares me because i look after my geckos but id just break down if they came and threatened me and tried to take them away from me, they are my love! i would be lost without my lizards


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## captaincaveman

tigger79 said:


> CCM - no i havent, feel free to put it on others.
> 
> Herp Awareness - feel free to put on your forum


i only really use this one and the american corn one:lol2:


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## SnakeBreeder

I have seen this information before and think everyone should know where they stand.

I have printed some pages off to put up near our door in case of uninvited guests :bash:

Everyone needs to know their rights these days.

Stephen


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## tigger79

i have emailed the SHG and they replied with this link

Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act

This is what it says, and the important bit related to this thread is in bold 

*Role of RSPCA*

*Will RSPCA enforce cruelty/welfare offences?*

Yes, the AWA is a common informers’ act, so anyone can prosecute. This is the same as the 1911 Act and a lot of other legislation. They have not been given, nor have they sought, any new powers. 
*Sometimes find RSPCA unco-operative – we don’t know whether they have already taken action in a particular case.*

We know that the relationship between LAs and RSPCA can vary. At present none of those who enforce the Act has a formal obligation to notify other bodies of any action taken, but we are working on a statement of intent which should improve the consistency of procedures to some extent. In addition, we would always encourage the development of informal relationships at local level to improve communication. 
LACORS has previously issued guidance on communications between local authorities and the RSPCA specifically in terms of farmed animals. This can be found on the LACORS website.
*The RSPCA cannot issue formal improvement notices under the Act. They do, and will continue to, issue their own informal ‘improvement notices’. These are not formal notices under the Act and have no power in law.*


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## monkeygirl

i just dont understand why you can go to jail or get your animals taken away if they havent even confirmed the guidelines yet?
especially when you hear about animals actually being kept in poor conditions in petshops and no actions being taken?


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## ratboy

The point is Tigger, although legally you are under no obligation to adhere to their improvement notices, if you ignore them, they will quite happilly prosecute you under a private prosecution if they feel you are being cruel to your animals by not doing what they say.

and once the CoP's from the AWB are law, they merely need to come back with a local authority representative who DOES have the authority to prosecute you under the law and you do have to do as they say.

as it stands the RSPCA have very much the upper hand in getting through whatever they want and they have the Local Authorities to back them up legally. Having contacted my Local Authority and asked them... they are indeed asking the RSPCA to run it... there is no way therefore that the RSPCA will not get any backup they need.

One way or another, we will all end up having to do as the RSPCA tell us.


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## tombraider

Im glad i saw this because im the type that would have let them in thinking someone had made a complaint about me and me wanting to prove everything was ok.


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## Herp Awareness

tigger79 said:


> CCM - no i havent, feel free to put it on others.
> 
> Herp Awareness - feel free to put on your forum


thanks for that...

Dal...


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## talltom69

Stupid question, but how would thye know who has what pets etc, is this like a bunch of jehovas knocking on the door.

Remember unless someone has a warrant or exceptional circumstances no person can enter your place of home without a warrant.


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## tigger79

talltom69 said:


> Stupid question, but how would thye know who has what pets etc, is this like a bunch of jehovas knocking on the door.
> 
> *Remember unless someone has a warrant or exceptional circumstances no person can enter your place of home without a warrant.*




The exact point i was getting across, 

Tallmon, they are using word of mouth and knocking on doors


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## punky_jen

Iv got nothing to hide, but if i see em outside my house, im not gona open the door lol. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## ratboy

talltom69 said:


> Stupid question, but how would thye know who has what pets etc, is this like a bunch of jehovas knocking on the door.
> 
> Remember unless someone has a warrant or exceptional circumstances no person can enter your place of home without a warrant.


This is true, but they can be quite intimidating in attempting to get what they want which is basically you inviting them into your house so they can look round.. then they do not need a warrant. This is why they wear police style uniforms and often give out a mock caution informing you that you are not under arrest.

Their aim is to get in to have a look around to see what you are doing and they have many years experience in doing just that. If everything is in order you will get polite thank you's and they will be on their way... but if there is something they do not like, they will be back and if they need to get a warrant to check that you have done what they said, they will do. 

It's all very well saying they are not allowed in... but I think you would be surprised at how many people do let them in when faced with intimidatory tactics by someone in a uniform, especially when you feel you have nothing to hide in the first place. Just like the lady at the subject of this thread.


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## baby05x

there is some reptile rescue which i cant remember the name of but the bloke does use this forum, well i was going to get a snake off him until he said he wanted to come check my home and look at my animals, and how can i manage to look after all of them with 5 kids
it rang some alarms
and i thought hold up, his gonna try and get them off me
my reps are kepted in A1 condition
vivs clean etc, i do manage to look after them all, 5 kids and the home
it can be done
however im trying to rack my brains on who is was i think his name was dave, going back awhile now


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## peaches

I feel for your friend tigger I really do.

It still seems so strange that they can 'reccomend' a certain size enclosure without the 'code of practice' being finsihed.

Also, I have noted some pet shops have information about the AWA, yet are obviously still selling housing etc..........how does that make sense? Pet shops selling housing that will not be suitable deemed by the RSPCA!!!

TBH if they knocked at my door, I would just say I didn't have any pets - how are they to know? word of mouth is not exactly concrete evidence now is it?


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## King Of Dreams

peaches said:


> Also, I have noted some pet shops have information about the AWA, yet are obviously still selling housing etc..........how does that make sense? Pet shops selling housing that will not be suitable deemed by the RSPCA!!!


_Because the buyers don't and that makes them money._


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## ratboy

The cage sizes for rats as quoted on the FOCAS site is :



> The minimum cage floor area given by the Home Office Guidelines depends on the size of the rat and whether they are housed singly or in groups.
> For an average size rat of 350-450 g, this is 300cm2 for a rat housed as part of a group or 700cm2 for a rat housed by itself. The cage height should not be less than 20cm.
> The National Fancy rat Society recommends a minimum cage size of 30x60x30 cm for a pair of rats which gives a floor area of 1800cm2.


So the size quoted with "The inspector told them the required size of a cage should be 60x36x24 for upto 6 rats" is 2160 cm2 which is 360cm2 per rat which is actually in line with the home office and rat society guidelines ?


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## amanda75

There's also a link to a petition to get the RSPCA's methods properly looked into....

Petition to: Hold a public enquiry into the polices and running of the RSPCA.


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## reptile king

*good info*

the rspca do make you laugth dont they i remember when they were dead against reptile keeping full stop i got a couple of friends who work there and they said that to me my only reply was that dogs and cats where once wild and not kept as pets so who are you to say what we can keep and what we cant as long as they are kept in the write conditions. 

thanks what a brilliant post:no1:


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## SuperTed

lol its obvious there going to put stupid rules in place like "your royal is fully grown it needs to be in something bigger than that 3ft viv" response "get a clue" :lol2:


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## Mitch

Pet shops will sell what they want putting it down to the buyers responsability. 

They should sort suppliers and pet shops out first before they come knocking on our doors.
Im sure door to door wont be the way to do it. 
The first people to get a knock on the door will be the ones who have their details registered at the local pet shop from when they last purchased a rep etc.
Pet shops might be asked to get info on all who use them for rspca use.
How many shops ask for details on their websites? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, add name and details here and tell us what pets you have! check out the small print on how they can use your info!
That is once the rspca have finished sorting them out hopefuly??. lol
No more 40 beardie babies crammed up in a tank or snakes kept in plastic cricket tubs with no water.
Most rep owners know alot more about reps than the rspca, infact the rspca often go to rep owners for advice or rehousing!?
They should stick to what they know for now but if some small good comes from this confusion? then it would be worth it. Once they sought the rules and regs out.


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## daikenkai

hmm...it all seems mental to me like...but heres my question, anyone know if this is happenin in Scotland?


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## peaches

Mitch said:


> They should sort suppliers and pet shops out first before they come knocking on our doors.


That's exactly my thoughts too.

Surely though, shops and sites cannot give details out because of the data protection jobby wotsit........hell, the electric company wont talk to me because it's in hubbys name..........surely they cant just have all that information???????


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## Dave_D

So, I wonder what they will be like if they come to mine!

I have 2 geckos in a 4ft tank waiting for more female additions, a corn in a 3 x 2ft viv which I have been told is fine for him, and I have a royal in a 3 x 3 x 3 which is larger than most people have theirs in!!!

BUT!!! And this is my problem, I have a 1ft beardie in a 3 x 1.5 tank which to some would be smaller than she should be in, but I have tried her in a larger cage and it nearly ruined her!

So, how can they tell me what to put them into? If they reckon she should be in a larger cage then I will have to argue, as I put her in a larger tank and she was not the same animal! 

Although I have mentioned this before, I will say again, their guidelines are pathetic as they dont know the animal in question!!!! Last time I went to the recommended size for my beardie she was dark, wouldnt eat or bask, sat in the cold part all day not doing anything, and generally looked REALLY ill! And when I went to move her to try get her to eat and bask she tried to bite me, and thats unusual for her let alone a beardie as she is so placid and loving! She normally loves to be handled and fussed over, but when she was in the larger "Recommended" sized tank, she was not herself!

I have then put her into a slightly smaller tank and she is fine, back to eating everything that moves, loves her veg again, developed some gorgeous colourings again, and allows us to pick her up and give her fuss!
So if I were to move her into a tank they reckon then I am going to have a bad beardie on my hands again, and I wont allow that as its not right!

I think they should give a rough guideline, but allow you the benefit of the doubt on sizes if it means your going to have a bad animal on your hands because its stressed!

Who are they to come tell us what to do with our animals, they dont know them like we do!! Would they happily allow a dog or a cat in their house that was going to attack everyone? NO! So why should we be told what to do if it means we end up with a sick, or evil animal because of their stupid "guidelines"?


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## JAM3S

peaches said:


> That's exactly my thoughts too.
> 
> Surely though, shops and sites cannot give details out because of the data protection jobby wotsit........hell, the electric company wont talk to me because it's in hubbys name..........surely they cant just have all that information???????


you would think so but how many times have you had phone calls from companies you have never heard of trying to sell you something? companies buy databases of ppls information from other companies on a regular basis.


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## *H*

I had the R.S.P.C.A at my door the other week, not asking to look at my animals, they were asking for a donation!! Telling me that one of my neighbours donates a few pounds a week and would I like to aswell!

They haven't got a clue about reptiles, 6 years ago I got told by a r.s.p.c.a inspector that my royal python NEEDS UV in its tank, and no matter how much i argued she wasn't having any of it, just kept on insisting that she knew what she was on about due to working for the r.s.p.c.a!! She then mentioned that my snake would need a check-up because it didn't have UV in with it and she could give me the number of her sister who is a specialist rep-vet....... hummmm

If they come knocking at my door there is no way I'm letting them in! My reps are kept clean, with fresh water, fed and in adequate enclosures, but there WILL be something that they will pick fault on.


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## greenlikegecko

if they come knocking trying to get into my house, ill simply tell them that 'i am NOT the owner and cant grant access to anyone without the owners permission, if they need access they will have to come when hes in'... and id say that everytime they came, unless they had a warrent! although i think this is all mainly happening in england just now, no?


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## Tina

You know when you buy anything from a pet shop you have to fill in a form with your name and address then sign it to say you know how to look after whatever it is - do you think the RSPCA have access to this info somehow cos there's never a data protection act statement on these forms - or is there? Any pet shop owners on here who can answer that one? 

Makes me hopping mad that shops can still sell whatever they blinking like whether it's the right habitat or not and they don't get stopped :-x RSPCA would do better sorting that one out.

Great informative thread.


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## mEOw

i have a sign on my door telling people to knock and beware of the dog.. she dosnt like people in uniforms for some reason.. they would have a VERY nasty surprise if they tried to get in when i wasnt here.. overprotective 57KG GSD x Black Lab...not a great thing to piss off..lol
Owen


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## ratboy

mEOw said:


> i have a sign on my door telling people to knock and beware of the dog.. she dosnt like people in uniforms for some reason.. they would have a VERY nasty surprise if they tried to get in when i wasnt here.. overprotective 57KG GSD x Black Lab...not a great thing to piss off..lol
> Owen


Yeah... I doubt they have any experience at all in dealing with aggressive dogs


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## monkeygirl

i dont understand still....how can they actually do anything without the guidelines, i mean how can they penalise us if there is nothing set for us to follow? 

and if we dont let them in surely they will get mad and look for something wrong when they come back with a warrant?

surely its best to just let them in?


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## monkeygirl

and if you say you dont have any animals wont you get in trouble when they come back and find out?


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## Ssthisto

monkeygirl said:


> i dont understand still....how can they actually do anything without the guidelines, i mean how can they penalise us if there is nothing set for us to follow?


Scare tactics. Just like they used with the couple the original poster talked about - "If you don't do X then we'll come back in 30 days and arrest you and you will go to jail."

Whether or not there is an X that is legally agreed... they can certainly scare you into doing it.



> and if we dont let them in surely they will get mad and look for something wrong when they come back with a warrant?
> 
> surely its best to just let them in?


I don't believe it is. Let them in and they will find something they believe is wrong... whether or not it is in fact bad husbandry.

Try telling them that an albino leopard gecko should not be kept under UV lighting, for example.

Unless they have a report of actual cruelty, how likely are they to pursue getting a warrant?


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## gargoyle1980

I think they should actually focus on the bad keepers rather than penalise the majority of us who bend over backwards for our animals. I for one won't go down without a fight. What are they going to do - argue that a solitary animal has to have company then argue that giving it company stresses them out? It's about time they sat down and let their mouth's do the talking!


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## MissHayho

i dont understand, are they randomly going round peoples houses asking if they have pets and if they say yes they are inspecting them?????????? If this is the case how on earth have they got the time to do this?


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## DaveM

If anyone like that knocks on our door, I'm gonna tell them to **** right off, they are a charity, not the pissing gestapo


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## NicolaMe

Ive only ever had one dealing with the RSPCA which was when my ex husband telephoned (without giving his name, but he wrongly thought i had reported him to the RSPCA so it was a tit for tat basis) and told them i was abusing my rottweiller, apparently i was throwing him across the room. when they arrived i quite happily let them in because i knew i had nothing to hide and she could see from looking at him that he was very healthy, not abused and completely trusting of me (if not a bit wary of her). She could also see that a (then) 8 1/2 stone woman (bit bigger now ) could not pick up a 11 stone rottie. I think if they come knocking on my door in future i shall be a lot more wary


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## Rainwater

whoever gets to meet the wonderful rspca, tell them to do their job properly and to check out pet shops and not ordinary breeders who do things right!!


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## JAM3S

DaveM said:


> If anyone like that knocks on our door, I'm gonna tell them to **** right off, they are a charity, not the pissing gestapo


that made me chuckle... nothing like being blunt and to the point :lol2:


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## Rainwater

lmaooo didnt even see that


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## SiUK

:lol2: Dave, unfortunately they have the powers to make life very difficult, having said that alot of the guidelines are common sense and all of us would stick to them anyway, its if they bring in to much more legislation that we need to worry, all in all the new animal welfare bill is a very good thing.


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## Rainwater

pet shops need to be told off!! its taking over my life!!


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## Mitch

I was talking to a rep petshop owner some time ago about how I would have loved to have a dwa permit and was told "Dont worry about that, if you want something I can get you it if you dont mind paying on or off the list" "I can get you a copperhead if you want one"!! Guy was selling large un registered/chipped dumerils and mating pairs. I think I spelled it right. lol God I rely so much on word spell checker.
Hes still in business. Thats why I hate shops so much. When you keep lots over the years you get talking to the owners, they pic your brain, sometimes you know more than they do but you can end up finding out things you dont like. Not good when you go to shops and they ask you for advice. They might have started out with best intentions but many end up just chasing the money. If it was me and I got to that point I would rather walk away. Another shop I went to told me "sorry I cant give you any info on the Tarantulas or those reps" just half of the shop "the supplier knows all about them and he looks after them for me" I asked when the supplier was around and was told that he comes once a week.
So who changes, feeds or waters them then!! Aparently sometimes when the kids pop in from the near by school for a nose they ask them if they want to feed or water them. Can you imagine!! 
The rspca should clean up their own act before trying to tell others what they should or shouldnt do. Go to the source thats often where the trouble starts. If the rspca cant stop shops like that how can they go door to door. Winds me right up!! grrr


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## sekhmet

i think rspca should be knocked down a few pegs! who the hell do they think they are??? im not intimidated easily. so if they think they can intimidate me they will find my foot up their arse, kicking them out of my garden


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## purejurrasic

You know, there is a lot of worry over all this.

I am no doubt gona get shot down for saying this, but...

There are still many reptile keepers who simply do not care for their animals correctly, and this is evident simply by looking at them and thier conditions.

I for one will still try to work with local authorities and rspca in these cases, and will not have any problems attending any place where abuse or non care is suspected, even if its someone from RFUK.

The reason?

Because the rspca (at least down here) are willing to admitt that they are clueless with regards to reptiles, and have, and continue to, ask for our advice and assistance. 

I fully agree that ANY instance of cruilty MUST be delt with, be it private or a shop or dealer. I fully support knowledgable persons giving advice to those with less understanding. I fully support improvements to, or the removal of animals in danger or with a diminished quality of life due to lack of good husbandary.

What I dont agree with is text book rules, based on non keepers views, intimidation, mis representation and a caviler attitude.

Thats why its important that those who care deeply about thoer reptiles (as most on here do) carry on sharing thier knowledge, improving the general standard of herp care, giving less for the 'do gooders' to get worried about.

Its down to us to make our voice heard, to get involved in local societies, to support the likes of FBH and IHS, to all promote well being in our animals.

Our support of the above should have an effect on the quality of the guidlines, which if correctly drawn up will indeed be good for the animals. And no doubt most on here care enough about their pets that they already supply the best of care.

Its not US they are after, its those who mix species, dont feed right, with hold medical care, dont understand the needs etc that are the targets.

I am sure that in 'most' cases if a keeper is able to demonstrate thier understanding of the animal in question, and they are acting on that knowledge, then thats as far as it will go, and , like us, you may well find they come back to learn from you.

Anyway, thats my 2pence worth, I think we all have the same goal, its how we get there that matters, and if the rspca need a little help with that, who better to help than those who already know and are only to willing to give advice. 

US.


Hides under table and takes cover !!!!


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## 1949_sam

Wow thats great info and i really hope that they never come to my door  as my dog is under the R.S.P.C.A so they have my address.

I think i would be like a frozen person at my front door if they came round and i'm sure i would mumble like crazy


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## Doogerie

If thay really siead that tay are talking shit I have seem lodes of pet shops with multipil creaturs in really small cages


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## purejurrasic

its not what they say thats shit, it how they say it and the way they back it up.

its a fact, anyone, person or shop, keeping reptiles, or other vert has to care for it and ensure its well being.

good thing in all this, is that there is now this law which 'should' sort out a lot of the 'less than good' shops !


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## tokay

I can see alot of Happy healthy Royal pythons being turned into non feeding bad shedding super stressed out snakes with these cage size rules , as i can see the rspca making us keep them in riculously over sized vivs. 
This happened to me once before as a royal i had (which was a great feeder never had a problem shed or anything) i moved him upto to larger vivarium 42" rougly the same length as the snake, he stopped feeding after that and also had a bad shed about 10 days later even thou humidity was constant 65% (i bumped it upto 70% when he came upto shed) his hot side was 92/93 , cold side 84, he also had 3 identical sized snug hides in there so it wasnt a barren setup, he wouldnt eat at all...tried him like this for 2 months but he wasnt having any of it , he wasnt even thermoregulating properly like he used too , so i moved him back to his old 36"ft viv 3 days later bang he ate a nice sized rat perfect again and never refused another meal since. 
but the rspca wont see this with there "they know best" attitude :censor::censor::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## SiUK

even if these cage size rules did come in, which if they consult and listen to people high up in the reptile keeping fraternity, they will see that this is not appropriate, then its not going to be any time soon


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## Faith

Correct me if im wrong but although the RSPCA will be policing them selfs they are not the Police so there for are not allowed automatic entry in to your home with out a warrant or a police officer present and even then they have to have a warrant my self personally i wouldnt let them in to my home with out a warrant umm to get a warrant they need proof  I know they now have their own prosecuting team and i also know that not all RSPCA divisions are the same some of them know they know sod all about reptiles they are still a charity and anyone that has a problem with them should really complain to the charity commission they are the people that license the RSPCA


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## SiUK

yeh they need a warrart but they could easily get one


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## Faith

Could only reasonably get a warrant if they can prove that you have done something that is against the law if the guidelines are not "law" yet then they can not get a warrant for something that has not even been passed if they are only guide lines and they have not been made public then really there is nothing they can do


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## purejurrasic

I understand they can get a warrent if they have reason to belive an animal is at risk. 

this reason could be factual, or indeed a call from someone who knows nothing complaining.

If your animals are being kept well, theres no problems. You may need to explain why you do something the way you do, but as long as you demonstrate your understanding, and that the conditions are based on your knowledge rather than not knowing what your doing, then they will be fine.

The guidelines are not in force, and I understand will be discused with various authorities, and even then will still be guide lines.


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## rspcavolunteer

tokay said:


> R.S.P.C.A are a bunch of money grabbing [email protected]*kers imho
> never liked them never will


You really dont have a f'ing clue what your talking about!
Unless you have worked for the RSPCA or volunteer then you don't have a f'ing clue so shut your mouth and don't talk about stuff you don't know about.


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## Rainwater

rspcavolunteer said:


> You really dont have a f'ing clue what your talking about!
> Unless you have worked for the RSPCA or volunteer then you don't have a f'ing clue so shut your mouth and don't talk about stuff you don't know about.


people cant help having bad experiences with them. they seem to do more bad than good


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## rspcavolunteer

babygyalsw2 said:


> people cant help having bad experiences with them. they seem to do more bad than good


The word seem is the key word in that sentence. But when you start to volunteer there see how much they really do.


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## gaz

have never seen the rspca deal with any situation competently,that goes from catching chickens wandering on the road(i had to do it myself while the rspca guy watched) to catching seals and taking them to a seal sanctuary for absolutely no purpose(seal in question very healthy and doing its own thing) apart from the fact they brought a TV film crew with them,any publicity is good publicity i suspect.
regards gaz


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## tombraider

rspcavolunteer said:


> You really dont have a f'ing clue what your talking about!
> Unless you have worked for the RSPCA or volunteer then you don't have a f'ing clue so shut your mouth and don't talk about stuff you don't know about.


god help us if the only people they can get to volunteer are the type that use the word f'ing in every sentence :lol2:


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## rspcavolunteer

gaz said:


> have never seen the rspca deal with any situation competently,that goes from catching chickens wandering on the road(i had to do it myself while the rspca guy watched) to catching seals and taking them to a seal sanctuary for absolutely no purpose(seal in question very healthy and doing its own thing) apart from the fact they brought a TV film crew with them,any publicity is good publicity i suspect.
> regards gaz


That is two incidents among thousands.


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## sekhmet

ay up do we have an rspca spie in our middest:lol2::lol2:


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## Ssthisto

rspcavolunteer said:


> That is two incidents among thousands.


Ok, how about another two from my experience - a stray cat that kept breaking into our house - we caught him and phoned the RSPCA to ask them to take him and either neuter him and return him or rehome him away from us since he was attacking our cats... and got told to do it ourselves. Guess we didn't have a television crew handy to tempt them with.

And a tame jackdaw that was free-living and adopted a friend of mine out near Holmfirth - got found by someone else after a storm, they called the RSPCA who came to collect him, we called the RSPCA to try to get him back for our very distraught friend only to find out he'd been carted twenty miles away. When we drove to the RSPCA station, we found out he'd been released in the middle of Leeds... which they did NOT tell us over the phone. What good, exactly, did that do? Taking him miles from his home territory just to release him?


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## WeThePeople

Ssthisto said:


> Ok, how about another two from my experience - a stray cat that kept breaking into our house - we caught him and phoned the RSPCA to ask them to take him and either neuter him and return him or rehome him away from us since he was attacking our cats... and got told to do it ourselves. Guess we didn't have a television crew handy to tempt them with.
> 
> And a tame jackdaw that was free-living and adopted a friend of mine out near Holmfirth - got found by someone else after a storm, they called the RSPCA who came to collect him, we called the RSPCA to try to get him back for our very distraught friend only to find out he'd been carted twenty miles away. When we drove to the RSPCA station, we found out he'd been released in the middle of Leeds... which they did NOT tell us over the phone. What good, exactly, did that do? Taking him miles from his home territory just to release him?


They are a charity so have limited funds to work with, they cant be expected to take in all strays and unwanted pets.

On the whole they are useless but they do with what they consider to be the best interest of the animals. Its a shame really because we look to them for help with all sorts of animal problems, but without the back up of properly trained staff and a black cheque they are next to useless.

There are other places you should look to when wanting to get rid of a pain in the arse cat,plenty of rescue centres would of taken it in for a nominal donation.


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## DeanThorpe

rspcavolunteer said:


> The word seem is the key word in that sentence. But when you start to volunteer there see how much they really do.


Why do you volunteer for the rspca?
and what do you do?


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## SiUK

rspcavolunteer said:


> The word seem is the key word in that sentence. But when you start to volunteer there see how much they really do.


how about the mistaking a tortoise for a turtle and the killing of lots of healthy dogs in their care, yes they do good no ones saying that they dont help, but to come onto a reptile forum and starting trying to preach about the RSPCA is not the thing to do going by their anti reptile policy


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## SiUK

WeThePeople said:


> They are a charity so have limited funds to work with, they cant be expected to take in all strays and unwanted pets.
> 
> On the whole they are useless but they do with what they consider to be the best interest of the animals. Its a shame really because we look to them for help with all sorts of animal problems, but without the back up of properly trained staff and a black cheque they are next to useless.
> 
> There are other places you should look to when wanting to get rid of a pain in the arse cat,plenty of rescue centres would of taken it in for a nominal donation.


mate the RSPCA have millions at their disposal they are not a struggling charity


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## Diablo

the RSPCA are muppets end of they want to protect animals yeah thats what they like people to think.


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## Ssthisto

WeThePeople said:


> There are other places you should look to when wanting to get rid of a pain in the arse cat,plenty of rescue centres would of taken it in for a nominal donation.


We tried, but our local branch of Cats Protection just didn't have the cage space available. HOWEVER at least CP said "We will call you as soon as we have space and then we'll come get him." Where RSPCA literally did say "Take care of it yourself."

Unfortunately the stray in question was able to shove open the window in the room we were keeping him and escaped before CP phoned - they actually DID phone us back asking if we still needed him taking away about a week later.


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## gaz

They are a charity so have limited funds to work with, they cant be expected to take in all strays and unwanted pets.

the RSPCA have £85,000,000 in assets and yet they shut down recue centres and beg for more which they invest in property,not the actions of a decent charity if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *gaz*  
_have never seen the rspca deal with any situation competently,that goes from catching chickens wandering on the road(i had to do it myself while the rspca guy watched) to catching seals and taking them to a seal sanctuary for absolutely no purpose(seal in question very healthy and doing its own thing) apart from the fact they brought a TV film crew with them,any publicity is good publicity i suspect.
regards gaz_

That is two incidents among thousands

strange that the only two times i have seen them in action have been botch jobs then,if they are isolated balls ups would expect one of my experiences to be good and one bad,not both hilariously(not for the seal) funny.
regards gaz
PS:my ex wife was a volunteer for the rspca and she did not have a good word to say about it,donated tinned dog food was sold for cash,protected species destroyed to avoid paperwork,expensive dogs breeds saved for publicity while ordinary mutts were killed asap.

its about time they were the subject of a government inquiry into their abuses of their charity status,you may well have any number of outstanding individuals doing a good job ,but your leadership has entirely lost sight of why the rspca was originally formed and are far more interested in their own political aspirations.


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## Fixx

I posted this on another forum when someone asked what they should tell their son (who has Apsirgers syndrome) to do if the RSPCA knocked on the door whilst he was at work. A well known shop owner told him to tell his son to basically let them in :S


"At first tell them you are not willing to let them in the house at the present time, but if they would like to make an appointment for a specific time and date then you willl be happy to arrange something appropriate. If they agree to this book a home visit from your vet for exactly the same time so you A.) have an independent witness and B.) have someone else there other than the RSPCA inspector and his cronies who knows their way around animals. 
If they are unwilling to make an appointment at a more convenient time then tell them to go away and come back with a warrant and the police. Never let anybody in your house without a warrant or very, very good reason the only people who can do this are HM Customs. 
In the meantime make sure your viv's are in tip top shape, try and get someone to be there when they come back with the warrant as an independent witness. 
Take photographs if you can of all your setups, any animals you keep and either give them to a neighbour or someone you trust that doesn't live in your house.
When and if they come back with a warrant, be polite and helpful. If they decide to seize any animals insist you take a picture of the vivarium the animal is kept in, and the animals they wish to seize, in front of the police officer and your independent witness, request that the police officer notes down temperatures and any other relavent details of the care the animal is receiving from you and have your independent witness do the same. If it is under medical treatment by a vet, inform the police officer and ask him to note down what it is being treated for and by what vet. Insist on a receipt for anything taken from your premises.
If they seize any animals contact a solicitor for legal advice as soon as you possibly can and give them all the relevant details, the name of the RSPCA inspector and any body else that accompanied him, the name, rank and number of the police officer/s who attended with the RSPCA, copies of the photographs you took, and a copy of the warrant issued during the visit. If you have a good vet and they know you and your animals well it may be a good idea to contact them as well.

I hope no-one ever has recourse to follow my advice."

After I posted this a very well known shop owner replied with:

"Yup can i just say tho, once you start down a road of not letting them in and a attitude of we are opposed to you, you had better be prepared for the consequences, many people are not, same as any big organisation you put there backs up and they will respond, it is better to work with all these people from the council to the rspca and educate them than just stand opposed."

To which my response was:

"As long as you have nothing to hide they can bring on all the consequences they want. After three visits and them finding nothing untoward you bring a harassment case against them, same as you do with the police if they harrass you repeatedly. Just because they are a big organisation does not mean you should kow-tow to them and grant them free access to your animals. Every warrant application that is made goes on file too, and I 'm sure the Court that issues them will begin to question the number of warrants that have turned out to have no basis for granting. After the first two or three you get in contact with the Clerk of the Courts, usually very helpful people, and register a complaint with them. 

As Elaphe Fan stated, the RSPCA do not have the power to seize your animals (at present), the police do, if you can show the police officer/s who attend that you know what your doing and the RSPCA don't I think you have less fear of having your animals seized especially if you have other independent witnesses present who can vouch for what you are saying. We're quite fortunate, our Vet's top notch and we have a good relationship with him, and we know zookeepers and ex-zookeepers (one who works with the police already with another locally based animal rescue charity) who will be more than willing to come as independent witnesses and back up. 

Your initial post on this just basically said let them in.. What happens if you let them in and they decide for whatever reason they are going to seize your animals? Or decide that they don't like the way your animal is being kept, let's use Jays example of a royal being kept in a smaller viv than they think necessary and advise you to move it into a much bigger brightly lit viv, with a warning that they will be back to follow up on their visit and check that you have carried out their instructions? Or they come across an animal they've never even heard of never mind seen before like our Sunbeam snakes, kept in almost 100% humidity on very very damp sphagnum moss?

I'm sorry I have read too many horror stories about the RSPCA and herp keepers to allow them any free access at all to our collection here. If they want to see them they have to either make an appointment or get a warrant. I'll be polite, helpful, will educate where I think necessary IF they're willing to come round and visit on MY terms, hell I'll even make them a cup of tea and offer biscuits (after they have washed their hands of course) if they're nice."


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## gaz

well said


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## jav07

very well said fixx:no1:


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## WeThePeople

Even revenue and customs need a warrant nowadays, everyone needs a warrant unless your a suspect terrorist.

Im a bailiff so deal with warrants on a daily basis, even with a warrant the RSPCA will be powerless. The chances are they wont be in a position to execute it properly anyway so even though they have one they wont be able to use it. Always read the small print, if they are there to inspect then just let them inspect they are not allowed to take away animals without the correct warrants and will tell you the warrant they have lets them do that. If things go bad its there word against yours. If they have a warrant from the county court saying they can remove your animals then they will need a police h'officer present, most of the time they wont turn up with one and because you dont know they need one you will hand over your pets.

The big stinker they will use against you is that once you have invited them in they are allowed to come back when ever they want and gain entry by force as long as they leave the place safe and secure. So if they think you are going to cause trouble they will get the warrant and come to your house, they will tell you they just want to come inside and talk to you, explain the warrant and give you time to act upon it. This is a sneaky trick because you have willfully let them in and they can return back at any time.

Obviously im a nice bailiff and have never done anything like this, ive just heard about it. But i know people who have done it to gain access and its legal, even though i rely on warrants like this to earn a living i think they are wrong. The company i work for, "charity" organisations and anyone who isnt either a county court bailiff or police officer etc shouldnt be allowed such powers because they are abused far too often for comfort.


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## rspcavolunteer

SiUK said:


> mate the RSPCA have millions at their disposal they are not a struggling charity


You don't know how the RSPCA works the RSPCA Headquaters has millions but the various centres around the country don't get a penny off them they have to make their own money, its like when you make a donation online or leave your money to the RSPCA in your will it goes to the Headquaters centres have to raise their own funds.


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## WeThePeople

rspcavolunteer said:


> You don't know how the RSPCA works the RSPCA Headquaters has millions but the various centres around the country don't get a penny off them they have to make their own money, its like when you make a donation online or leave your money to the RSPCA in your will it goes to the Headquaters centres have to raise their own funds.


So what do HQ do with it all?


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## gaz

You don't know how the RSPCA works the RSPCA Headquaters has millions but the various centres around the country don't get a penny off them they have to make their own money, its like when you make a donation online or leave your money to the RSPCA in your will it goes to the Headquaters centres have to raise their own funds.

a damn fine reason for an investigation if ever there was one!!!
regards gaz


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## SiUK

rspcavolunteer said:


> You don't know how the RSPCA works the RSPCA Headquaters has millions but the various centres around the country don't get a penny off them they have to make their own money, its like when you make a donation online or leave your money to the RSPCA in your will it goes to the Headquaters centres have to raise their own funds.


thats precisely my point, the words money and grabbing come to mind


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## jav07

rspcavolunteer said:


> You don't know how the RSPCA works the RSPCA Headquaters has millions but the various centres around the country don't get a penny off them they have to make their own money, its like when you make a donation online or leave your money to the RSPCA in your will it goes to the Headquaters centres have to raise their own funds.


so why dont the centers play hell and get the money shared out....mad


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## Fixx

WeThePeople said:


> So what do HQ do with it all?


I believe they spent an absolute fortune (£20 million) on their new HQ, probably hundreds of thousands spent on internal decor like expensive carpets and furniture.

I recall reading somewhere that at one point they had something like £175 million in the bank, but due to playing on the stock exchange and paying for their new HQ that they have nowhere near this left.


"The three-storey headquarters building of 105,000 sq ft has a frame and upper floors constructed in reinforced and post tensioned concrete incorporating fair faced concrete coffered ceilings and incorporates two spacious central atria extending the full height of the building. The project included extensive car parking and landscaped grounds with a lake."


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## SiUK

there was an advert for a job someone posted up not long ago and it was near £50,000 a year wage with company car and it said in the description will have millions of pounds at disposal.


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## gaz

and there we have it,if they had stuck to their original game plan of recueing animals in distress and were using their funds for this purpose,none of us would be fed up with them,however since they have become political they have got lost in delusions of grandeuer(spelling?) when they were involved in the hunt ban they spent on occassion up to £30,000 on full page adds in the national dailies,if this money was properly distributed to their actual recue centres then our very own RFUK rspca member here would have plenty of money available to do the job he/she does without wasting time trying to raise funds in order to do so,all rspca ground personnel should be questioning the direction their organisation is taking these days as it will eventually result in an enquiry and general dissatisfaction amongst the very public who provide the funds thinking their monies will be disbursed to rescue centres to do the job the rspca says its doing,if it becomes general knowledge as to where their donations are actually ending up then the rscpca will have shot itself in the foot and the job of those actually in the field will neccessarily become more difficult,for no other reason than the people in charge being:
power crazed
politically motivated
horribly politically correct
very left wing
anti almost every thing
and last but not least,the very people who should never be in charge of anything more complcated than a broom(no offense to any broom leaners out there)
regards gaz


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## Fixx

Interesting....seem that a wildlife based forum, Wildlife About Britain has had a certain *rspcavolunteer *join in July 07 and strangely enough (not) he is on the defence of the RSPCA but without the foul language they used on here.


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## SiUK

going on to try and defend your chosen charity F'ing and blinding is not perhaps the best way to go about it


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## Mez-sez

Thieving trouble causing Bastards!

if the R.S.P.C.A come around ours, i can only be polite for so long.

any prick that tries to steal my nature friends gets me going nature on them! ill bite and scratch! lol

Great Help cheers buddy.

ive heard loads about the R.S.P.C.A trying to ruin it for us reptile/snake/amphibian etc lovers


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## SiUK

I just saw an RSPCA advert on ITV, with Simon Cowell and Fern Cotton doing the voice overs, saying how they are not government funded and need your £3 a month to help save animals lives, as already established they spent £20 million on refurbashing their headquarters and the RSPCAvolunteer member on here, said all the rescue centre have to raise their own funds, it seems to me like its the managers that are corrupt at the HQ, I do believe that all the inspecters and volunteers genuinely want to do there best to help animals, but they seem to be undertrained and disalusioned.


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## lizardlover

i must admit i have not read this whole thread as yet ( waiting for my antivirus to finish 1st) but how can these people know where we live and if we have animals, and no one has the right to enter my home unless i invite them. 
Only friends are invited into my home NOT strangers no matter who they say they are! 
So if peopel dont let them into thier homes they cant do anything about it.

No one has the right to tell me how to live my life or run my home, look after my children, animals or hubby for that matter!


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Maybe they get your details from vets records? but surely they cant do that. isnt it the rspca's new law for the shops in which animals are bought to take a name and address of the person they sold an animal to?


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## Fixx

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Maybe they get your details from vets records? but surely they cant do that. isnt it the rspca's new law for the shops in which animals are bought to take a name and address of the person they sold an animal to?


you're right they can't do that...Data Protection Act.


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## lizardlover

exactly so i cant see them coming to me to see what i have and how i keep them! my reps my home my business :Na_Na_Na_Na: to the rspca jobsworths


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## Jazzy B Bunny

LOL! if they came to my house im sure theyd have no bad comments, i wouldnt let them in anyway though.


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## Faith

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Maybe they get your details from vets records? but surely they cant do that. isnt it the rspca's new law for the shops in which animals are bought to take a name and address of the person they sold an animal to?


Even if they do that it has to have on the small print somewhere that the details you give will be passed on to a third party you know them little tick box things that say " do you mind if we pass on your info" i know its off topic but all places that sell TV's or tv transmitting equipment now must take a name and address to check to see if you have a tv license, but thats because its against the law not to have one. The RSPCA have no clout where the law is concerned at this moment in time and by the looks of some of the petitions going round they wont get it for a long time


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## ratboy

WeThePeople said:


> Even revenue and customs need a warrant nowadays, everyone needs a warrant unless your a suspect terrorist.
> 
> Im a bailiff so deal with warrants on a daily basis, even with a warrant the RSPCA will be powerless. The chances are they wont be in a position to execute it properly anyway so even though they have one they wont be able to use it. Always read the small print, if they are there to inspect then just let them inspect they are not allowed to take away animals without the correct warrants and will tell you the warrant they have lets them do that. If things go bad its there word against yours. If they have a warrant from the county court saying they can remove your animals then they will need a police h'officer present, most of the time they wont turn up with one and because you dont know they need one you will hand over your pets.
> 
> The big stinker they will use against you is that once you have invited them in they are allowed to come back when ever they want and gain entry by force as long as they leave the place safe and secure. So if they think you are going to cause trouble they will get the warrant and come to your house, they will tell you they just want to come inside and talk to you, explain the warrant and give you time to act upon it. This is a sneaky trick because you have willfully let them in and they can return back at any time.
> 
> Obviously im a nice bailiff and have never done anything like this, ive just heard about it. But i know people who have done it to gain access and its legal, even though i rely on warrants like this to earn a living i think they are wrong. The company i work for, "charity" organisations and anyone who isnt either a county court bailiff or police officer etc shouldnt be allowed such powers because they are abused far too often for comfort.



That is an excellent post..... Thank you


----------



## Vase

I'm pretty sure that if an RSPCA 'officer' turned up on my door step, salesman style, I'd hand them a spoon and tell them to eat my arse.

In most cases I think its going to be the animals that suffer, one way or another.


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## Lynne

i went to the rspca for a rabbit, to keep my one company. they had one and i said i would takeit. i asked when they would do the home check, as i do these for the cpl. they told me they dont do them. so for all they know, i could have been taking the rabbit home to stick in the pot. then a few weeks ago i got a phone call from an officer about my horses. he had just been passing he said and noticed one was kind off stiff getting up from lying down sleeping. i told him i did not want him near them unless i was there. he then asked for my address? i told him to sod off. the horse he was talking about is always a bit stiff when he gets up, then he walks 2 steps and he is fine. if they saw me getting up in morning they would put me down!!!!!


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## tigger79

butterfly said:


> if they saw me getting up in morning they would put me down!!!!!


I would too:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Trice

butterfly said:


> if they saw me getting up in morning they would put me down!!!!!


Thats the same with everyone!


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## Nerys

(just to add...

being the one who now has the gerbils off this couple.. i am thinking of complaining to the rspca that they were not harsher on them

they are in an appalling state. mumified bodies, mites, ri's, babies sucking off dead mothers... gross)

N


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## BELIAL

Just had a quick glance through and most people seem to be slagging off the RSPCA when imo they do a good job. If people kept their animals properly there wouldn't be an issue. unfortunately people keep their animals in horrendous conditions and then whinge when the RSPCA come knocking. I ask, well what did you expect? if i were witness to the way some 'loving' owners keep their animals i would be a lot worse than any RSPCA officer. They do a hard job as it is...


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## darkdan99

they do an OK job at times, but somtimes the do a lot of sh!t. 

I would say that 50% of their actions are good, and the other half bad. 

Rehoming, prosecuting and rescue/rehabs are good things, but their unbelivable lack of knowledge, expiriance with some species, the amount of healthy animals they euthanise, the cockups they make (killing a pet as a stray to name one such example) make them a worse. 

They are also anti pet keeping. And very much so, not only exotics but no animals at all!


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## jamie_coxon

i dont know if this is related. with me just movin 2 preston outside ov hull the local pet shops arnt aloud 2 keep there reps in wooden tanks. u go in hull and they ae. the pet shop guy told me that the east riding of yorkshire council has a new law sayin about new tank sizes and stuff. so i wonder if its in place all other the place now. coz wot thisnow means is that im not aloud 2 keep ma reps in wooden vivs but if i was livin in hull i wud be. bit sh!!ty aint it


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## lizardlover

jamie_coxon said:


> i dont know if this is related. with me just movin 2 preston outside ov hull the local pet shops arnt aloud 2 keep there reps in wooden tanks. u go in hull and they ae. the pet shop guy told me that the east riding of yorkshire council has a new law sayin about new tank sizes and stuff. so i wonder if its in place all other the place now. coz wot thisnow means is that im not aloud 2 keep ma reps in wooden vivs but if i was livin in hull i wud be. bit sh!!ty aint it


 
they are your snakes so you keep them in a home that suits you. as far as i know no one cant tell you how to house your snakes 9 unless its totally wrong.

i have not heard of shops not being able to keep their reps in wooden vivs - thats how they have always been kept. and shops just cant shut down whilst they pay out like £200+ for plastic tanks.
Plus dont think its up to the council how shops house their reps either.


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## serpentkid100

i tried 2 tell ppl bout this before, this is the rspca a*****es...there aim is to ban pets all out. but people jus wont believe me or that.
: victory:sam


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## tigger79

serpentkid100 said:


> this is the rspca a*****es...there aim is to ban pets all out. : victory:sam


they are not after a complete ban of pets as there would be no need for them to exsist, they just think they know everything about animals n act in a manner of do it our way or else.


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## jamie_coxon

lizardlover said:


> they are your snakes so you keep them in a home that suits you. as far as i know no one cant tell you how to house your snakes 9 unless its totally wrong.
> 
> i have not heard of shops not being able to keep their reps in wooden vivs - thats how they have always been kept. and shops just cant shut down whilst they pay out like £200+ for plastic tanks.
> Plus dont think its up to the council how shops house their reps either.


 
thanks : victory:
just wanted 2 make sure i want gonna get in trouble


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## Phaedra

Tina said:


> You know when you buy anything from a pet shop you have to fill in a form with your name and address then sign it to say you know how to look after whatever it is -


This is news to me. I've never signed any such thing. In fact two of the pet shops I've bought from didn't even know my christian name let alone my address. 

Has anybody been watching the RSPCA program, I think it's on channel 4 at about 6:30. It's about a group of trainee inspectors. They went to a woman's house who had lots of snakes. From what I saw there were nowhere near enough hides for them (pretty much 1 per cage) but the inspectors, who obviously didn't have a clue what was right or wrong, didn't see anything that stuck out as bad so they went away.

What's the point sending out insepctors who don't know a thing about reptile care?


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## Razaiel

Phaedra said:


> This is news to me. I've never signed any such thing. In fact two of the pet shops I've bought from didn't even know my christian name let alone my address.


Two of the local reptile stores to me have this too - name, address, telephone number ... I wonder how they would check it was all correct though if you paid cash ... geez they'll be asking for passports next!!


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## exoticsandtropics

i think that you will find that the rspa is after a total ban on pet shops, overall, but try to regulate pet keeping- TWATS


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## JAM3S

I dont think id want to give out all my personal details when buying a rep becuase i bet as more stupid laws on keeping pets appear the RSPCA and alike would want to buy that information from the shops so that they have a list of people they can go round and harass. is that just me being paranoid?


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## exoticsandtropics

yeah that is true, it depends though with most councils i know with mine they do, you have to legally keep a record of everything that you sell and to who. i think it works both ways really.


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## Chris Newman

This may be of some assistance, its part of an information pack that is about to be sent to all petshops. The same applies to private keepers as well as petshops.


*F*requently*A*sked*Q*uestions​
_Do the RSPCA have the right to demand to inspect my shop, question me or my staff, or examine my animals?_

*NO: The RSPCA have no legal powers, or rights, over and above that of any other member of the general public. *

_The RSPCA call themselves the Animal Police, wear a police style uniform have ranks (Inspector, Chief Inspector etc) & issue cautions. Does this mean they are law enforcement officers?_

*NO: The RSPCA is a charity, not a statutory law enforcement agency. It is a serious offence to impersonate a police officer. *

_If I refuse to cooperate with the RSPCA can they arrest me?_

*NO: The RSPCA has no more powers of arrest than any other member of the general public. The caution used by the RSPCA starts with the phrase “You are not under arrest” which implies they have the power to arrest but this is purely an intimidatory tacit and they cannot arrest you.*

_Do I have the right to ask the RSPCA to leave my premises?_

*YES: The RSPCA should leave your premises at your request; otherwise they may commit the civil offence of trespass. *

_Do the RSPCA have the right to seize animals?_

*NO: Only a police officer or animal welfare inspector can seize animals - the RSPCA have no power to seize or confiscate anything.*

_Can a police officer seize animals and give them to the RSPCA?_

*YES: A police officer can seize animals, under certain circumstances, and he can place the animals in the temporary care of the RSPCA. The police are responsible and liable for anything seized.*

_If the police size my animals should they give me a receipt?_

*YES: If the police officer seizes your animals you are entitled to demand a receipt from the officer. Do not sign or accept any receipt offered by the RSPCA.*

_Do the RSPCA have the right to be on my premises if named on a Warrant issued by a Magistrate?_

*YES: If a Warrant has been lawfully issued by a Magistrate and it names the RSPCA then they have right of entry. *

_What do I do if the RSPCA want to inspect my shop or ask me questions, or say they have received a complaint? _

*In light of recent intelligence, and taking into consideration RSPCA campaigns against pet shops, REPTA’s advice is do not answer any questions verbally. Ask the RSPCA to put any questions in writing and inform them that they will be answered in writing as soon as possible.*

*Call REPTA immediately for guidance *​*023 8044 0999*​*Advice is free & in total confidence *​


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## LFBP-NEIL

in relation to the wooden / plastic viv thing, its a stipulation of the pet shop licence that animals are housed in imperveous / non absorbant housing i.e untreated wood due to infection risks i.e the wood absorbing crap, melamine vivs are fine, perhaps the plastic tank guys understood this wrongly or their council took it one step further?


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## sammy1969

Hi 
I have recently had the rspca round to me as they knew i kept pets and although my cage sizes were adequate etc they still complained that my rats etc only had the bare minimum requirements in there cages even though they had toys etc in them. When i asked what i could do to make them better i was left unanswered but told i would get a return visit and if improvements were not made they would confiscate my rodents but when it came to my reptiles they seemed tohave no idea what was required and what wasnt 
I am now unsure as what to do as i know they will be back and watching to see what i have changed 
Can anyone tell me if there is a time limit as to when they can return as it has been about six weeks since the last visit but still no one has returned?
Does this mean i am safe and they have no complaint?
I love all my pets and have a wide range of them so dont want to loose any of the ones i have 
I am the only person around my area that has been visited so i know they havent been knocking doors at random but i am known to the local rescue centre and have helped them out in the past
can anyone help?


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## Razaiel

I was going to ask how they knew you had reptiles ... tbh it's getting to the point now I don't tend to tell people i have reptiles (in case the information falls in the wrong hands i'm getting paranoid here ). I'm wary of joining any herp societies because i'm worried that once my details are on a database somewhere - i can be tracked down and I haven't done anything wrong and all my critters are kept in the best possible condition. It's starting to become an underground hobby :-x


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## lizardlover

NEXT TIME THEY VISIT DONT LET THEM IN.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO COME INTO YOUR HOUSE WITHOUT A WARRANT - AND THAT CAN ONLY COME FROM THE POLICE. THE RCPCA HAVE NO RIGHTS TO COME INTO YOUR HOME WITHOUT A POLICE AND A WARRENT.

SOMOEONE MUST HAVE TOLD THEM ABOUT YOU - SO SOMEONE IS BEING NASTY! 

IF THEY OCME BACK AND KNOCK DOTN LET THEM IN AND TELL THEM IF THEY DO NOT LEAVE YOU ARE GOING TO CALL THE POLICE AS THEY ARE HARRASING YOU.
THAT WILL GET RIDE OF THEM! 
IT HAPPENED TO A FRIEND OF MINE SOMEONE TOLD THE RSPCA THAT HE WAS NOT LOOKING AFTER HIS SNAKES CORRECTLY. THEY CAME ROUDN AND HE TOLD THEM THEY HAD NO RIGHT TO COME TO HIS DOOR OR TO ENTER HIS HOUSE ( PLUS A FEW OTHER WORDS LOL) THEY SOON WENT AWAY EMPTYHANDED.

THEY ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO GO INTO A SHOP AND DO SPOT CHECKS WITHOUT THE OWNERS CONSENT AND THE OWNER CAN ASK THEM TO LEAVE! 
THEY HAVE NO DURISTICTION

Sorry if i sound like im shouting above, but i am! the RSPCA are NOT POLICE and can do NOTHING! to you no matter how many threats they make YOU on the other hand can contact the police and say you have soemone at your door harrasing you and make a complain that you are scared! 
Alternatively - scream help help im being attacked- lol they will soon run!


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## sammy1969

thanx 
I wont be letting them back in thats for sure as i seem to know more than they do when it comes to herps 
The woman that came didnt seem to know anything and was actually scared of snakes so why she was working for them i dont know
I think someone did report me but then my neighbours are like that andi dont fit in very well eyes arent the right colour lol 
I was told by them last tiem that if they come bac k and no improvements they will confiscate and yet all my enclosures are the right size for the animals they contain 

will let you know if they do turn up agian and what they say the only thing i stillneed to know is if they have atime limit to when they can come back


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## lizardlover

well hun that i cant answer, but i bet they dont come back! probably just tryin to scare ya!.

thankfully we got good neighbours lol! but there are some nasty people about! we have had the shop reported a few times, but they walk in walk out. Someone said the shop had dead rabbits and mice hanging around the shop .........................er yh frozen ones for food lol! But the person made out they were pets and had died, well owner soon showed em the freezer full of dead rodents lol! 

They CANT conviscate anything unless they got a police warrant NO MATTER WHAT B*LLSH** they tell ya! and as was said earlier in the post its gotta come from a magistrates court! 

IF they do knock and say who they are just say yes your just gonna go n get someone n shut the door. if they knock again tell em to go away otherwise your call the police and have em dun for trespassing and harrasment! 

well hun i know i dont know you but u fit in here - no matter what colour ur eyes, or who u luv etc etc etc.

We aint nasty here we all luff each other no matter how different we are!!!
Lin
:razz:


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## sammy1969

thanks lizardlover i really appreciate your advice and am pleased i have found aplace where people appreciate the same things i do 
I hope they dont come back at all to be honest but suppose time will tell as you say
At least one good thing is coming out of all this i have met new friends and good ones at that


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## sammy1969

forgot to add we think we know who did it to us now and well paybacks are a swine shall we say lol 
Mind you the neighbours here arent happy unless they are complaining about something so guess i will have to get used to it as i doubt it will be the last time i get problems


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## lizardlover

OH BLESS YOU YOU POOR THING! 

well hun u got us now lol! 
once you close ur door u dotn need to worry about idiots!!
on her we all love our animals and will do anyithng to make life easier fo all!
you sound so much happier!! good!!


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## Chris Newman

Sammy1969

Hopefully your have read the notes I posted, it is important that you know your right. The RSPCA have no powers to confiscate or seize and animals. Also I note you live in Southampton, as do I. I would be very interested to know if the inspector you are having problems with is Inspector Coleman! If it is please let me know as I make considering taking action over this inspector after another incident in Southampton, not reptiles but rabbits. If you need any advice you can phone me on 023 8044 0999 (the helpline number).

Chris


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## sammy1969

Hi Chris 

I really cant remember the womans name and cannot find the bit of paper she left with me saying what i had to do and her contact number i m going to see if i can find it and let you know


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## lizardlover

wow a nice possitive note! 
Chris can you not just go a head and report them anyway, for being obnoxious to people and telling them they are not looking after their animals correctly when by the sounds of it these guys have no idea what so ever on how to look after them.

At least with us guys we buy them for all sorts of enjoyment - not just as show pieces.
most of us do some reasearch b4 we buy these reptiles etc.

some people join the rspca i think coz they think they look good in the uniform and tell people they have the power lol! ..........yh rite! 
as you said they think people will look up to them coz they got a UNIFORM - my boy wears a uniform - but no one looks up to him at school lol!


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## BecciBoo

I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread but I did read the majority of what was said and have read the link.

I would just like to say that I know many people that work for the RSPCA as Vets, Nurses and Inspectors and I have had alot of positive dealing with them in the past. I am currently a Lecturer in Animal Science and alot of what I teach is about the role of the RSPCA and the positive things that the organisation has done for animal welfare.

Daily I teach that there is a minumum/basic way of housing all animals but this is not necessarly the right way. Animals, whether it be reptile, amphibian, mammal or invertebrate deserve to be kept in the best possible conditions and animal keepers should strive to meet the most natural conditions. Everyday I bang on to students about environmentel enrichment and keeping animals as close to their natural environment as possible!! I personally believe that if an owner cannot meet these high standards of housing and care then it is not _'reponsible pet ownership'_ and they should not own the animal.

The new animal welfare law is there to make sure the_ basic_ standards are met by anyone who is responsible for an animal, and the RSPCA are there to *help* this happen! If this means removing animals from people then so be it! The RSPCA judge every case individually and owners are given a time limit to improve the way the animal is been kept. Owners should be happy of the helpful pointers, because no one knows everything about how we should keep a pet anima...everyone can learn something new!!!


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## slither61

*Read all the thred*

HI all,

Mina may I suggest you read all the thred, and you may form a different opinion.


slither61 :snake::snake::snake:


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## Ssthisto

mina_the_witch said:


> The new animal welfare law is there to make sure the_ basic_ standards are met by anyone who is responsible for an animal, and the RSPCA are there to *help* this happen! If this means removing animals from people then so be it! The RSPCA judge every case individually and owners are given a time limit to improve the way the animal is been kept. Owners should be happy of the helpful pointers, because no one knows everything about how we should keep a pet anima...everyone can learn something new!!!


The problem is that the RSPCA does not have nearly enough reptile-familiar inspectors... and conditions that ARE suitable and appropriate for certain reptiles may be considered inappropriate because it does not look right to the inspector. 

For example: Royal pythons are somewhat agoraphobic, and some individuals have animals that WILL NOT EAT in large enclosures... but the RSPCA recommendation for a royal python is a vivarium as long as the snake is and at least eighteen inches deep. An adult Royal can get to five/six feet long... but some royals will starve rather than eat in an enclosure that size.

And leopard geckos can go blind if they are exposed to UV - but I have heard of a number of RSPCA inspectors recommending that all lizards including the nocturnal leos have UVB light bulbs.


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## sparkle

mina_the_witch said:


> I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread but I did read the majority of what was said and have read the link.
> 
> I would just like to say that I know many people that work for the RSPCA as Vets, Nurses and Inspectors and I have had alot of positive dealing with them in the past. I am currently a Lecturer in Animal Science and alot of what I teach is about the role of the RSPCA and the positive things that the organisation has done for animal welfare.
> 
> Daily I teach that there is a minumum/basic way of housing all animals but this is not necessarly the right way. Animals, whether it be reptile, amphibian, mammal or invertebrate deserve to be kept in the best possible conditions and animal keepers should strive to meet the most natural conditions. Everyday I bang on to students about environmentel enrichment and keeping animals as close to their natural environment as possible!! I personally believe that if an owner cannot meet these high standards of housing and care then it is not _'reponsible pet ownership'_ and they should not own the animal.
> 
> The new animal welfare law is there to make sure the_ basic_ standards are met by anyone who is responsible for an animal, and the RSPCA are there to *help* this happen! If this means removing animals from people then so be it! The RSPCA judge every case individually and owners are given a time limit to improve the way the animal is been kept. Owners should be happy of the helpful pointers, because no one knows everything about how we should keep a pet anima...everyone can learn something new!!!


 
deleted as I cant begin to reply without rage 


theres so many expereinces friends of mine have had with dogs/ cats/ reps i cant begin to say how dissapointed i am at the rspca...


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## brittone05

I thikn that many people are misguided as ot the actual role of hte RSPCA.

They are SUPPOSED to be a animal welfare charity - sadly, of recent years, they appear more interestd in political assembly, conviction figures and on making life difficult for animal keepers be them good or bad.

Mina - I understand as a lecturer, one of your first points of call will probably be the RSPCA but you must understand the problems people face being exotics keepers witht he way the RSPCA operate as a whole.

Please, if you find time, take a read through the rest of this thread and also in general herp chat where you wil find a sub forum about legislation and the difficulties the hobby faces due ott he RSPCA, DEFRA nd the like.

Spakley hunny - some sparkly dust to make oyu happy again too *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

xx


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## sparkle

why thank u kind brit lady


----------



## BecciBoo

I have now read the entire thread and with my mum who is a Veterinary Nurse. And I still have the same opinion.

I agree that some RSPCA Inspectors have little or no info on how to keep reptiles but some actually do, a good friend of mine and some one I now teach with, worked for the RSPCA and he knows more about reptiles than anyone I have met. He currently teaches all the exotic modules! 

As for cage sizes, these are just 'guidelines'! And the RSPCA are not unreasonable! I agree with your point about royals, although I currently have one in a large viv and have no problems with it feeding. I would not stop any RSPCA inspector from entering my home and inspecting the way I care for my animals.

Have any of you actually thought of all the good the RSPCA have actually done!! They are responsible for the majority of animal welfare legislation...or do the people on this site actually agree that chasing a fox down to the point of exhaustion and then letting a pack of dogs rip it limb from limb is 'ok' .... because the RSPCA stopped that and alot of other animal cruelty! Sorry but quotes such as:



> Originally Posted by *tokay*
> _R.S.P.C.A are a bunch of money grabbing [email protected]*kers imho
> never liked them never will_


Really annoy me and are out of order. People who have specialist knowledge of animals should be trying to help organisations such as the RSPCA and everyone should be trying to get better conditions for all animals!

oh and the RSPCA should focus more on the pet shops!


----------



## BecciBoo

sparkle said:


> deleted as I cant begin to reply without rage
> 
> 
> theres so many expereinces friends of mine have had with dogs/ cats/ reps i cant begin to say how dissapointed i am at the rspca...


Sorry I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to have an opinion or point of view!


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## Ssthisto

mina_the_witch said:


> People who have specialist knowledge of animals should be trying to help organisations such as the RSPCA and everyone should be trying to get better conditions for all animals!


REPTA tried to offer their services as a specialist knowledgebase and a ready-made rehoming network for reptiles in the UK. The inspectorate thought it was a great idea... but the "bigwigs" in that lovely, expensive office that uses up £0.94 of every donated pound turned it down cold.

Not to mention that the RSPCA has published documentation stating that they do not believe that reptiles should be kept as pets....


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## Chris Newman

mina_the_witch said:


> I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread but I did read the majority of what was said and have read the link.
> 
> I would just like to say that I know many people that work for the RSPCA as Vets, Nurses and Inspectors and I have had alot of positive dealing with them in the past. I am currently a Lecturer in Animal Science and alot of what I teach is about the role of the RSPCA and the positive things that the organisation has done for animal welfare.
> 
> Daily I teach that there is a minumum/basic way of housing all animals but this is not necessarly the right way. Animals, whether it be reptile, amphibian, mammal or invertebrate deserve to be kept in the best possible conditions and animal keepers should strive to meet the most natural conditions. Everyday I bang on to students about environmentel enrichment and keeping animals as close to their natural environment as possible!! I personally believe that if an owner cannot meet these high standards of housing and care then it is not _'reponsible pet ownership'_ and they should not own the animal.
> 
> The new animal welfare law is there to make sure the_ basic_ standards are met by anyone who is responsible for an animal, and the RSPCA are there to *help* this happen! If this means removing animals from people then so be it! The RSPCA judge every case individually and owners are given a time limit to improve the way the animal is been kept. Owners should be happy of the helpful pointers, because no one knows everything about how we should keep a pet anima...everyone can learn something new!!!


Regrettable this is only accurate in theory, not practice. It is very clear today the role of the RSPCA today is not animal welfare, but Animal Rights. Animal Rights is not the same as animal welfare and is often counterproductive to actual welfare of animals. I would suggest that the ‘good’ the RSPCA does/did is far outweighed by the negative impact it has on welfare today. To suggest the RSPCA are there to help is grossly naïve and shows a complete lack of understanding of what the RSPCA actually do to animal keepers on a daily basis. Perhaps you should look at the facts and reality of what is happening before you blindly support this organisation!


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## powderpuff_girl

thanks for the info


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## sparkle

mina_the_witch said:


> Sorry I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to have an opinion or point of view!


 

i didnt say u werent allowed an opinion...

i said i disagreed with you....which in theory means u are uncomfortable with the majority view in this thread with a post like that...

you need to read what they DONT teach or lecture about the RSPCA


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## lizardlover

oh and the RSPCA should focus more on the pet shops!

i understand what you say here, but does that mean that when someone contacts them and tells a bunch of ill truths that they should act on it - even when the so called RSPCA have been in the shop just a few weeks before to do an inspection and could find nothing wrong! 

1 will give you 2 examples.
example 1 - a reptile specialist shop

There was 2 complaints to 1 shop that had not long had an inspection and given the " all clear" if you like. Some one had gone in the shop see dead rabbits hanging aroudn and complained that the shop were keeping dead rabbits. Reason person complained - she could not get a snake for the price she wanted to pay. she had told the RSPCA that there were dead rabbits and mice aroudn the shop and it wasnt fair to young children to see the shop mistreat these animals in that way.
TRUTH - yes these rabbits n mice were dead BEFORE they came to shop, the shop was in the middle of sorting out a delivery of FROZEN FOODS! 

example 2 - a pet shop 

another shop a customer complained about the smell and the way the animals were kept. rspca turned up and could not see a problem. But the shop clearly had a nasty smell. on going inot the shop to be nosey a day or so later all rodents - which were to be sold as pets we living in unclean cages. i saw a dead rodent in once cage. decided not to tell the owner as i would have tohught he wodl have checked the cages periodically! 
items on shelves were covered in dust, floor was a mess.
BUT rspca did nothing!
they wre also selling reptiles but they wre not kept in the correct type of enviroment ( beardies in an old fish tank with a heat bulb above it)

in my opinion the rspca shoudl have taken more note of shop 2 and realised when they got a call to shop 1 that the reason for the dead rabbits was that there were in fact FOOD!!!!!!!! - especailly as they had only recently been in the shop!

So yes they should take more notice of shops but at the same token take proper notes of nutters that ring them with unreal complaints. i understand that they need to check out these alligations, but if they had read their previous notes on shop 1 they woudl have realised and not wasted time and money doing this uncalled for visit! 

They must have a list of good and bad shops and should be focusing on the ones that they have had lots of complaints for or the ones they know have serious problems! 
just my 2penneth worth for this time of the morning!


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## Chris Newman

The RSPCA have an official policy that, quote; “we are opposed to the sale of animals from pet shops”. This along with there clear lack of knowledge of so called exotic, for example when they published there scientific report ‘Handel With Care’ they claimed albino anacondas were common as pets and that green iguanas reached 21 feet!!!! Facts such as this should preclude them from any involvement with pet shops or indeed reptiles – I would suggest.


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## sammy1969

I have just found out that the RSPCA have been back but at the time i wasnt in. Apparently they waited fro some time before leaving.
I woulds like to clear up a point with mina if i may:
I had always had a high opinion of the RSPCA and had up until this past incident had a good rapport with them even having them ask me to take in exotics that they had little or knowledge of how to keep and look after
NOw I can honestly say i do obey the basic needs of the animals i keep and more so i have large cages for my rats and they all have toys in to enrich their enviroment and also on the day that the RSPCA actually came to me they also had just been fed and watered and yet i was still told that i had inadequate habitat and that i was not feeding and watering them at all. On the day in question i had literally just gotten back from collecting my bedding etc from the shop and was about to start on cleaning as i always had and yet was told that i was not up to their standard of cleanliness which was ridiculous and even after i explained that i was in the process of cleaning i was told basically that i didnt know how to look after my animals. Now if a four foot by six foot cage is not big enough fro four rats what is? If a four foot by two foot by two foot cage is not big enough for a single guinea pig what is? and the again i ask what is the right sort of habitat when you know that oyur corn snake hatchling will not feed in a large viv and would go crazy if put into a three foot viv at such a young age (he was in a foot long viv and was only about six inches in length) what is?
I personally dont believe in hides as i find i get a more sociable snake and i know i am not the only keeper that feels this way but that doesnt stop me from putting in branches and foliage for them to hide amongst just not the hide to go into. 
I was also told i needed uv for my snakes which in corns can cause blindness as well as in other reptiles, and also royals are nocturnal so when do they get uv?. 
I asked the woman that came round to me if any of my animals seemed unhappy unhealthy or mistreated in any way and she would not answer me at all other than i slight shake of her head but still continued saying aobut i was not meeting there basic minimum requirements and when i asked what i had to do to make it so she told me i had to clean them out which i had already explained to her i was about to do when she called and which she could plainly see as the wood chips and cleaning materials were in the middle of the floor.(her comment was that i could of just put the things there when she arrived, funny as my front door was wide open and i didn't now she was coming). 
Now i know there are people out there that do mistreat animals and i do agree we doneed someone to look out for these people ands top them from keeping pets as they give us genuine animal lovers a bad name buti cannot or the life of me see why the RSPCA are picking on people like my self who genuinely put the welfare of their animals before anything else.I have kept pets for many years and never had anyone ever tellme that i am cruel or that ido not look after my animals in any way other than brilliantly infact i have always been told how wonderful they all look and how friendly they all are so why am i being treated this way?
If my animals had been thin frightened ill or anything i could see why they had cause for complaint but infact the opposite is true (the one comment i will make is the one rat that has lung problems she was not concerned about at all)
TO be honest all this has made me feel tha ti want nothing more to do with the RSPCA and that i would no twant them anywhere near me or my pets ihave eeven canceled my regular donation to them., and that i know longer feel safe at all.


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## lizardlover

*here here!!!!!!!!!*

Here Here Sammy good for you!!!


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## PendleHog

Razaiel said:


> Two of the local reptile stores to me have this too - name, address, telephone number ... I wonder how they would check it was all correct though if you paid cash ... geez they'll be asking for passports next!!


I will admit I have NEVER used my real details on one of those forms and never will. There is *one *shop in the whole country I trust enough to put my real name down on the form as I know they would not allow my details to fall into the "wrong" hands.

Everyone else can have an imaginative alias and someone elses address :whistling2:


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## gaz

thinks what if pendlethang buys a gaz snake??? signs as "Madame duct tape" hmmmmmmmmm hell would get that framed!!:lol2:

buuuuy a boa pendlethang!!
regards gaz


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## ratboy

mina_the_witch said:


> I agree that some RSPCA Inspectors have little or no info on how to keep reptiles but some actually do, a good friend of mine and some one I now teach with, worked for the RSPCA and he knows more about reptiles than anyone I have met. He currently teaches all the exotic modules!


Glad that you live in an area that has a knowledgeable inspector... The one for our area knows bugger all about snakes.


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## gaz

ours cant catch chickens.........not sure what this demonstrates but is highly amusing...to a gaz at least:crazy:


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## ratboy

The fact is that the level of knowledge required to police the AWA with regard to reptiles is almost impossible to achieve. There are just too many species kept in too many homes up and down the country.

Stating that an inspector knows more about reptiles than anyone you have ever known is both naive and downright dangerous.

Let's pick on a big breeder .... I'll pick Gaz as he is obviously and rightly well respected in his field and his knowledge of Boas is exemplary.... but would I trust Gaz's opinion on the care and maintenance of my rat snake species ? No... probably not. If I wanted information about Boas, Gaz would be a first port of call, but not for Rat snakes.

Nerys has an excellent rounded knowledge of all sorts of reptiles and is qualified to speak well above the RSPCA standard of knowledge ... but would I ask Nerys about the care and maintenance of say a hatchling Moellendorf rat snake that I was not sure was WC or CB ? No, I would not.

These two people, selected simply because of the respect and knowledge they have, have more broad experience and knowledge than probably any RSPCA inspector in the country... and If I would not go to them for advice ON THE SPECIES THAT I KEEP IN MY HOME.... I am damned if I would let an RSPCA inspector tell me what's what with any of them.... even if they have sat through a one day course on the keeping of corn snakes.


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## Nerys

> .or do the people on this site actually agree that chasing a fox down to the point of exhaustion and then letting a pack of dogs rip it limb from limb is 'ok' .... because the RSPCA stopped that and alot of other animal cruelty! Sorry but quotes such as:


what a TOTAL pack of shit!!!!

firstly, the rspca are not responsible for getting hunting banned..

secondly the rspca condone animal cruelty themselves, as evidenced by the state of play on many of the "freedom foods" farms.. and as evidenced by the state of some of their animal accomodation - as shown via animadversion sites.

thirdly.. in the last 10 years, going on THEIR figures, they have destroyed over 50% of the animals taken in, or donated to them... thats 850,000 + animals KILLED by the rspca in the last 10 years

lastly, and i know not all here are PRO hunting but, it has to be said none the less.

you clearly know NOTHING about how a hunt works. in a pack of hounds there is a lead dog, whose job it is to reach the prey first and kill it. when the fox is brought to bay, the lead dog will be first at it.. he grabs it by the neck, and shakes it.. just once is enough to kill the fox outright.. similar to twisting a chooks neck, or a rabbit for that matter.. 

one bite, one shake.. dead fox.. game over.

what THEN happens is the rest of the pack, who are normally only a tiny bit behind, will then grab whatever part of the carcass they can get to, and then yes, a tug of war goes on over the dead body of the fox.

so the the uninformed and illeducated, yes, it does look like the fox is being torn limb from limb.. and in truth the fox IS being torn limb from limb, the difference is, that in your side of the story he is still alive as this happens, when in reality, he is already dead by this time. Anyone who has bothered to look into the reality of hunting will know this.. any country person will tell you this.. anyone who has experience of dogs would be able to tell you this.. the lead hound kills the fox, the pack then shreds the dead fox between them.

instead, what happens now, is the foxes are shot on sight by the land owner... who is now unable to accomadate the hunt. most land owners will happily admit to not being a good enough shot, to accurately kill a fox at 100 yrds... 

so mina.. you want to know what happens?

half the time they are shot at, the land owner does not make a clean kill, the bullet or pellets lodge in the animal, frequently causing a long slow death as the wounds become infected and go bad.

if the fox is hit in the face, it is rendered unable to eat, and so most likely dies of starvation. if the fox is hit in the limbs.. many times it is then unable to hunt, and slowly starves to death.. if its hit in the body, then it depends what it hits, and how much damage is done.. 

a guy i saw being interviewed after just shooting fox.. when he went to the carcass, was clearly sickened by what he saw.. it was a fox he had shot some months before, but not a clean kill.. the front leg was broken at the shoulder, and there was a large hole into the chest and shoulder.. after a few months, the flesh was rotting and decaying, the leg was full of pus and dirt, and the animal itself was emaciated beyond belief. 

say what you want about a hunt, but the one thing a hound knows how to do, is kill a fox with one bite.. thats a lot more than can be said by a farmer with a shot gun. 

it really annoys me when you get stupid statements like yours mina.. as all it says to me, is that you know bugger all about rural life and how it really works. you may be a town girl, you may be a country girl.. but one things for sure.. you are not a girl who knows the real deal about the countyside.

N


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## firefighter

*Rspca*

Very interesting! I am new to the forum, but its good to see everyone helping everyone else.
With regard to the RSPCA, they have NO powers of entry! They HAVE to be in the company of a POLICE OFFICER, and they also have to have a SEARCH WARRENT signed by a MAGISTRATE. - How do I know - because firstly I AM a MAGISTRATE, and secondly, I have been on the wrong (accused) side of an RSPCA prossecution.
From my own experience, they (RSPCA), always play very dirty, to the point that had I been "jo public" with no understanding of the Judicial System, and procedures, and without the help of the "SHG - self help group" as named in the original thread, I would probably ended up with at the very least a heavy fine.
Prosecutions brought by the RSPCA are some of the very few where the accused has to PROVE their innocence, - you are not automatically "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY".
My case was in relation to the keeping / selling illegal birds (all of which were LEGALY obtained and registered with DEFRA)
It was dropped - 48Hrs before the trial, and had cost me a fortune in expert witness and legal fees (Barristers dont come cheap).
If anyone is unlucky enough to find themselves in position I found myself in, SAY NOTHING - NO COMMENT, GET YOURSELF AN EXPERT WITNESS, AND CONTACT A SPECIALIST SOLICITOR (RSPCA DEFENSE SPECIALIST).
If anyone needs a contact, I have the details of a VERY GOOD no EXCELLENT defence Sollicitor and Barrister.
Realy hope no-one will need this info, but if you do, i'll do my best to help, and PLEASE contact the SHG, Anne and Earnest do a fantastic job, and are always keen to help.
Andy. (Apologies for any spelling mistakes - need to be out in two mins)


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## firefighter

*Rspca*

Very interesting! I am new to the forum, but its good to see everyone helping everyone else.
With regard to the RSPCA, they have NO powers of entry! They HAVE to be in the company of a POLICE OFFICER, and they also have to have a SEARCH WARRENT signed by a MAGISTRATE. - How do I know - because firstly I AM a MAGISTRATE, and secondly, I have been on the wrong (accused) side of an RSPCA prossecution.
From my own experience, they (RSPCA), always play very dirty, to the point that had I been "jo public" with no understanding of the Judicial System, and procedures, and without the help of the "SHG - self help group" as named in the original thread, I would probably ended up with at the very least a heavy fine.
Prosecutions brought by the RSPCA are some of the very few where the accused has to PROVE their innocence, - you are not automatically "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY".
My case was in relation to the keeping / selling illegal birds (all of which were LEGALY obtained and registered with DEFRA)
It was dropped - 48Hrs before the trial, and had cost me a fortune in expert witness and legal fees (Barristers dont come cheap).
If anyone is unlucky enough to find themselves in position I found myself in, SAY NOTHING - NO COMMENT, GET YOURSELF AN EXPERT WITNESS, AND CONTACT A SPECIALIST SOLICITOR (RSPCA DEFENSE SPECIALIST).
If anyone needs a contact, I have the details of a VERY GOOD no EXCELLENT defence Sollicitor and Barrister.
Realy hope no-one will need this info, but if you do, i'll do my best to help, and PLEASE contact the SHG, Anne and Earnest do a fantastic job, and are always keen to help.
Andy. (Apologies for any spelling mistakes - need to be out in two mins)


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## sammy1969

*Rspca*

OK i give up after months of waiting yet againthe RSPCA have turnhed up with someoen in tow to check my animals and this time i was igven an official warning that i dont know how to look after my pets I am getting so sick of being treated like this by this inspector Coleman after going round and checking allmy animals all she could pick up on was the fact that one cage didnt have water as therats inside had chewwed the clip off last night and i hadnt gotten round to replacing it So i was told i wasnt giving my animals ready access to water all because of one cage and told if she sawit again she was going to take all my pets. In th eend i got beligerant and completely blanked her and didnt even see her out Surely this is victimisation I have been left intears due to this and being unwell anyway i feel like giving up completely. Why is it she could only find one tiny fault and make such a big deal out of it i was subjected to questioning aobut how often i feed and water them and how often i clean them and then was accused of running a business and selling to pet shops and told i need to get a pet shop license why you may ask coz i have sold four rats to a pet shop in the past stupid isnt it 
I just dont know wha tto do anymore this is really getting to me and well she reckons she will be back again but wont say when even though i asked
Is this allowed i wonder?
Even the person she brought with her looked like a police officer although it turned out tha tthey werent but i wasnt told this until after i had begrudgingly given access to my home.
Surely something can be done to stop people bening treated like this?


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## brittone05

sammy - the only advice I can offer is IF she does return, do not them them bully thier way into your home.

Ask to see a warant signed by a magistrate and ONLY allow the person(s) named on said warrantt o enter your property.

If they don't have a police officer present, they can't have a warrant nor come in should oyu not wisht hem to.

I would consider maybe seeking further advic asto whether it is harrassment if they are continually calling with no due cause (i.e not having received a legitimate complaint).

Unsure also if you could maybe call the RSPCA nad request that they change the perosn who calls to you??


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## captaincaveman

Nerys said:


> what a TOTAL pack of shit!!!!
> 
> firstly, the rspca are not responsible for getting hunting banned..
> 
> secondly the rspca condone animal cruelty themselves, as evidenced by the state of play on many of the "freedom foods" farms.. and as evidenced by the state of some of their animal accomodation - as shown via animadversion sites.
> 
> thirdly.. in the last 10 years, going on THEIR figures, they have destroyed over 50% of the animals taken in, or donated to them... thats 850,000 + animals KILLED by the rspca in the last 10 years
> 
> lastly, and i know not all here are PRO hunting but, it has to be said none the less.
> 
> you clearly know NOTHING about how a hunt works. in a pack of hounds there is a lead dog, whose job it is to reach the prey first and kill it. when the fox is brought to bay, the lead dog will be first at it.. he grabs it by the neck, and shakes it.. just once is enough to kill the fox outright.. similar to twisting a chooks neck, or a rabbit for that matter..
> 
> one bite, one shake.. dead fox.. game over.
> 
> what THEN happens is the rest of the pack, who are normally only a tiny bit behind, will then grab whatever part of the carcass they can get to, and then yes, a tug of war goes on over the dead body of the fox.
> 
> so the the uninformed and illeducated, yes, it does look like the fox is being torn limb from limb.. and in truth the fox IS being torn limb from limb, the difference is, that in your side of the story he is still alive as this happens, when in reality, he is already dead by this time. Anyone who has bothered to look into the reality of hunting will know this.. any country person will tell you this.. anyone who has experience of dogs would be able to tell you this.. the lead hound kills the fox, the pack then shreds the dead fox between them.
> 
> instead, what happens now, is the foxes are shot on sight by the land owner... who is now unable to accomadate the hunt. most land owners will happily admit to not being a good enough shot, to accurately kill a fox at 100 yrds...
> 
> so mina.. you want to know what happens?
> 
> half the time they are shot at, the land owner does not make a clean kill, the bullet or pellets lodge in the animal, frequently causing a long slow death as the wounds become infected and go bad.
> 
> if the fox is hit in the face, it is rendered unable to eat, and so most likely dies of starvation. if the fox is hit in the limbs.. many times it is then unable to hunt, and slowly starves to death.. if its hit in the body, then it depends what it hits, and how much damage is done..
> 
> a guy i saw being interviewed after just shooting fox.. when he went to the carcass, was clearly sickened by what he saw.. it was a fox he had shot some months before, but not a clean kill.. the front leg was broken at the shoulder, and there was a large hole into the chest and shoulder.. after a few months, the flesh was rotting and decaying, the leg was full of pus and dirt, and the animal itself was emaciated beyond belief.
> 
> say what you want about a hunt, but the one thing a hound knows how to do, is kill a fox with one bite.. thats a lot more than can be said by a farmer with a shot gun.
> 
> it really annoys me when you get stupid statements like yours mina.. as all it says to me, is that you know bugger all about rural life and how it really works. you may be a town girl, you may be a country girl.. but one things for sure.. you are not a girl who knows the real deal about the countyside.
> 
> N


 
Im an ex fox assasin:lol2:, ive shot since i was really young and have always belonged to gun clubs(until recently), ive always had an embarrasingly good shot grouping at full lengths of most ranges, so around here i was the one called upon to aid gameskeepers and farmers

I do think that many anti-hunt people dont know the full story of what actually goes on, on hunts

As for the rspca killing statistics, didn't someone(maybe yourself), post up a link, or something of rspca purchases of freezers or something, for the storage of said animals?


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## brittone05

the link was about PETA, CC.

they purchased large walk in freezers which would only normally be used for dead things - namely the animals htey put to sleep in thier masses


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## captaincaveman

brittone05 said:


> the link was about PETA, CC.
> 
> they purchased large walk in freezers which would only normally be used for dead things - namely the animals htey put to sleep in thier masses


 
ah ok, i wasn't sure who:lol2: im an old man and things get lost:lol2:


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## lizardlover

sammy1969 said:


> OK i give up after months of waiting yet againthe RSPCA have turnhed up with someoen in tow to check my animals and this time i was igven an official warning that i dont know how to look after my pets I am getting so sick of being treated like this by this inspector Coleman after going round and checking allmy animals all she could pick up on was the fact that one cage didnt have water as therats inside had chewwed the clip off last night and i hadnt gotten round to replacing it So i was told i wasnt giving my animals ready access to water all because of one cage and told if she sawit again she was going to take all my pets. In th eend i got beligerant and completely blanked her and didnt even see her out Surely this is victimisation I have been left intears due to this and being unwell anyway i feel like giving up completely. Why is it she could only find one tiny fault and make such a big deal out of it i was subjected to questioning aobut how often i feed and water them and how often i clean them and then was accused of running a business and selling to pet shops and told i need to get a pet shop license why you may ask coz i have sold four rats to a pet shop in the past stupid isnt it
> I just dont know wha tto do anymore this is really getting to me and well she reckons she will be back again but wont say when even though i asked
> Is this allowed i wonder?
> Even the person she brought with her looked like a police officer although it turned out tha tthey werent but i wasnt told this until after i had begrudgingly given access to my home.
> Surely something can be done to stop people bening treated like this?


Oh Hun, dont give up - if oyu do then they win AND WE CANT HAVE THAT!

from what i have heard you hav doen nothing wrong! These people can be so stupid. They obviously dont know that rats can bite thro anything and that there are times when you jsut have to clean out cages and change things so the "poor animals" go without food and water for a few hours. - maybe these idiots sohuld be working for the thrid world countries if they are that worried. Stupid thing is i bet neither of them had any idea of how to keep and animals let alone a small rat!
The problem is they threaten to come and after a while you forget about it then they pounce. Maybe you wanna put a notice on your door something to the affect of " any person knocking without a police warrant will NOT have access"
better still go to your local newspaper and complain aobut a poor defensless disabled woman being victimised by the rspca - that will upset the applecart! get them to come round and see all your animals and do a story for your local rag make those peopel feel small!!!!!!!
that way anyone else that gets a visit will hopefully jsut shut the door in their face. As its your property you DO NOT have to open the door to anyone unless they have a police warrant - not even a baylif ( apparently)


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## Faith

lizardlover said:


> Oh Hun, dont give up - if oyu do then they win AND WE CANT HAVE THAT!
> 
> from what i have heard you hav doen nothing wrong! These people can be so stupid. They obviously dont know that rats can bite thro anything and that there are times when you jsut have to clean out cages and change things so the "poor animals" go without food and water for a few hours. - maybe these idiots sohuld be working for the thrid world countries if they are that worried. Stupid thing is i bet neither of them had any idea of how to keep and animals let alone a small rat!
> The problem is they threaten to come and after a while you forget about it then they pounce. Maybe you wanna put a notice on your door something to the affect of " any person knocking without a police warrant will NOT have access"
> better still go to your local newspaper and complain aobut a poor defensless disabled woman being victimised by the rspca - that will upset the applecart! get them to come round and see all your animals and do a story for your local rag make those peopel feel small!!!!!!!
> that way anyone else that gets a visit will hopefully jsut shut the door in their face. As its your property you DO NOT have to open the door to anyone unless they have a police warrant - not even a baylif ( apparently)


Correct  
The rspca are only allowed to access your home IF the inspectors name is on that said police warrent  
If not then only the police officers are allowed access 
loophole you see

on a police warrent it will have at the bottom the name of the attending officer IF the name of the attending officer is not followed with either 
any rep of the rspca or the actual inspectors name they are BY LAW not allowed to just enter your home 

Unless you rent your home from the council then you may have a problem as on many tneancy agreements it stats that written permission is needed for keeping any pets if you dont have that the council can order either your eviction or the pets to go. Sad yes i know but thats council housing for you 

If on the other hand you own your home or privatly rent there is nothing they can do unless they have your landlord with them they are not allowed to enter your property and even then you can demand 7 days notice in writing 

You never have to let them in again 
all you have to say is 
"do you have a warrent for access to my property" 
rspca looks shocked and says "nope but you have the right to remain silent blah blaah " 
And thats where you laugh at them and tell them to go and do one!


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## sammy1969

*rspca*

I know i dont have to let them in but they do it in such a way that you fel you have no choice i seriously believed that the second person their was a police officer and i wasn not told anything to make me think otherwise until they had been in my home for over five minutes. I am pretty sure i will recieve yet another visit from them in the future and i can bet they will find some minor fault to pick holes in they always do it seems i mean when i said i fed my animals at night when i eat that wasnt good enough for them and they insisted i feed them whilst they were here and yet the animals didnt touch the food which should of said something to them but no they were right and i was in the wrong 
I could understand their concern if any of my pets looked undernourished or ill but even my three and a half year old blind rat still gets around as normal and looks really good all things considered.Surely i must be doing something right?
I mean when you see the cases fo animal cruelty out their you would think they would be happy that my pets are so well looked after but it seems i am to be persecuted for being an animal loverand for caring fro my beloved pets
Why am i being treated this way or is it now their policy to take pets from everyone no matter what?
I just want to be left alone by this person to live my life with my pets without feeling tha ti am constantly on guard fro any minor fault their might be which is how i feel right now.
Sorry to go on but i just feel so upset by all this.


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## sala-king

i'm glad some people will get found out for not looking after their reps


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## Faith

sammy1969 said:


> I know i dont have to let them in but they do it in such a way that you fel you have no choice i seriously believed that the second person their was a police officer and i wasn not told anything to make me think otherwise until they had been in my home for over five minutes. I am pretty sure i will recieve yet another visit from them in the future and i can bet they will find some minor fault to pick holes in they always do it seems i mean when i said i fed my animals at night when i eat that wasnt good enough for them and they insisted i feed them whilst they were here and yet the animals didnt touch the food which should of said something to them but no they were right and i was in the wrong
> I could understand their concern if any of my pets looked undernourished or ill but even my three and a half year old blind rat still gets around as normal and looks really good all things considered.Surely i must be doing something right?
> I mean when you see the cases fo animal cruelty out their you would think they would be happy that my pets are so well looked after but it seems i am to be persecuted for being an animal loverand for caring fro my beloved pets
> Why am i being treated this way or is it now their policy to take pets from everyone no matter what?
> I just want to be left alone by this person to live my life with my pets without feeling tha ti am constantly on guard fro any minor fault their might be which is how i feel right now.
> Sorry to go on but i just feel so upset by all this.


Aww hun dont get worked up over them let them pay you another visit just so you can tell them that you know your rights and they can get knotted as to see any ID from everyone with them before letting them enter your home. 
If its a police officer with them you would know from the ID's 
Dont let them in again and dont allow them to intimidate you thats what they want


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## zirliz

That's terrible I wouldn't let them in next time don't let any one make you feel like your doing something wrong if you certainly aren't. It seems sometimes these people spend all their time chasing people like yourself who are just looking after their animals not bothering anyone.
Than those who shouldn't even have a goldfish, cockroach you name it.


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## brittone05

Another option you could take (and you would need to check this with maybe Chirs Newman or osmeone who has RSPCA experience) is to get a letter off yor vet statingt hat all of your animals have been checked since the last visit and are all proven to be in good health etc.

Then if they do come back, simply refuse to let them in without a warrant and supply them with a copy of the vets letter???


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## htf666

The only trouble with that idea is that you are sort of admitting that you have something to prove to this organisation.They are a charity dressed up as policemen and if no warrant is present then should be told in no uncertain terms to bog off or worse.As stated before even if a warrant is present if it doesn't have the r.s.p.c.a. inspectors name on it, (highly unlikely) then he stays on the outside.By all means show the police round as they probably hav'nt a clue what they are looking at anyway.These people have no more rights to look at your animals than anyone on the street and it is about time the country woke up to these charlatans and treated them accordingly.Whilst the ruling council is infested by a.r. extremists the charity should be ignored and starved of contributions till the day arrives when reptile keepers can go about their business without feeling like criminals.Reptile keeping is still LEGAL.(just). Harry


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## reaper1

i read this thread a month or two back, and i must say its grown sinse then...

to summarise i can only say that im incredibly sad that you guys hate the rspca... JUST KIDDING PLEASE DONT KILL ME! 

i cant believe some of the stuff that ive heard about this supposed 'charity' they seem more like some sort of political pacifist terrorists... using scare tactics and impersonating police officers? its sad what money can do to a persons mentality.

the accounts and oppinions that i have read in this thread are both eye opening and harrowing. the money that these sh!ts spend on there head quaters... you know, for 20 million they could set up bloody herp care workshops, you know (with the aid and council of herp keepers them selves) go into town centres and set up displays (indoors for heating reasons of course) showing people about how to care for specific reptiles and amphibians. because to be honest there are a fair few dodgy shops out there that will bull shit to hell and back to make a sale. (though dont get me wrong theres some brilliant ones too which provide the basis for thriving herp communities) and then at least this way the rspca are being competant arse holes instead of ignorant malicious ones...

oh, and it wouldnt burn a major hole in there huge pockets to splash out on a bit of funding for sites like these.

but yeah... very sad and pathetic people the RSPCA are, and all those ppl in defense of them can quote this to hell and back calling me uneducated, i simply dont care, the majority of people keeping herps are good people and considering how young herping as a hobby and as a science is, i think we have progressed far quicker than any other hobby in existance. i mean... how long did it take to get fish keeping right? in 20 to 30 years herpotology has come a hell of a long way, and hopefully .. eventually the hobby will also provide a much needed route for conservation of endangerd species.

theres my peice. thnks for reading.


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## Rou

I have only read the first couple of pages but I agree, I find it difficult to think of the RSPCA as a nasty organisation because of their work that has been made clear to us over the years. Yet I look back at my dealings with the RSPCA:

 As a young child I got bitten by an enraged dog. We reported it to the RSPCA and they made no effort to check up on the dog or it's environment. this dog lived in a house opposite a primary school!
I live in a very old Victorian house, we had starlings nesting in our attic so we called upon the RSPCA to see what we should do. they told us we weren't making a justified report and they refused to visit.
I visited a local pet shop in my area where birds were up for sale. the condition of the bird's accommodation was disgusting, inch deep with filth and more than half of the collection were exhibiting stereotypical behaviour. the RSPCA once again made no effort to fix the situation.
another was during the summer of 2005, i was at a local park with a group of friends. we were sat around the lake when we spotted a young swan which had fishing wire around its beak with what looked like the hook inbedded in it's neck. we immediately called the RSPCA to come out and help the poor swan but they once again said they were not able to come out and handle the situation as it was not a justified report.
disgusting.


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## Vaughan69

A very informative post, i keep DWA scorpions (yes i have a licence) but that wouldnt stop the rspca checking up i can imagine. Many valid opinions and a great sticky. Thank you.


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## Dexter

tokay said:


> R.S.P.C.A are a bunch of money grabbing [email protected]*kers imho
> never liked them never will


Be careful with this sort of comments, because I learned yesterday that they could take legal action against the forum and sue the owner and mods.

I'm surprised they haven't locked this thread in case a member of the RSPCA reads this :whistling2:


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## Nerys

tbh dexter, most of the "anti's" read these boards daily anyway...

rspca, customs, defra, as well as the other anti keeping brigade.. they all know these threads, they all watch what we are saying.. and what you are saying... 

its why we (pkl) have to be careful what we say at times

some are even registered members :crazy: not only on this board, but on others too.. i know a few here and there, but by no means all of them!

N


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## lizardlover

surley thay cant do anythign its FREE FORUM for FREE SPEACH so we have the right to say how we feel

if a member of he rspca reads it then they sohudl do what we have all done and take their own opinions they cant expect to get it locked because of people opinions and if they dont like what they read then they shouldnt damn well read it!

I live in this country and have the freedom to say what i want to who i want my opinions are my opionins and no one has the rite to tell me otherwise

so people liek the rspca so dont if they did what they wre supposed to do and think of the welfare of ALL animal Herps included then there woudl ntro be this problem but they do tend to go around thinking they KNOW IT ALL and threatening people saying they have the power to take away your animals because THAT particular person dont like they way your treating them - even if they dont know the correct way themselves.
IF every member of that group had to have soem sort of degree or exam on how to keep all anmials and went to college to study then maybe they woudl have more understanding and more rights. To be a copper you gotta to to college to be an electrictian you gotta go to college n trian same with doctors solicitors etc so why not one of these so call charaties they shoudl go on some sore of learning programme before they start calling at peoples houses shops etc saying they have the right its all utter cr*p! 
sorry but thats my opinion and think others have similar opinions


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## Dexter

lizardlover said:


> surley thay cant do anythign its FREE FORUM for FREE SPEACH so we have the right to say how we feel


That's what I thought till last night. By the way my sarcasm is crap because I was actually being ironic with my posts.

I had a thread locked last night just because I asked why a shop didn't use lamp guard, and was convinced by the mods that they can indeed sue the forum if they don't like what they read.

If the forum can be sued because of a hamrless and serious question, let alone if you come here and call a big institution a bunch of money grabbers and w**kers : victory:


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## Andy

Dexter said:


> Be careful with this sort of comments, because I learned yesterday that they could take legal action against the forum and sue the owner and mods.
> 
> I'm surprised they haven't locked this thread in case a member of the RSPCA reads this :whistling2:


Good point Dexter, I suppose the slandering/libel whichever it is shouldn't be allowed just the same as we cannot allow shops to be named and shamed. I think most people are unaware that if the people did want to sue then its the sites owner (TBo) who would be prosecuted not the person who wrote the post as far as I am aware.


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## Nerys

indeed

posting slander on websites is not a good idea.

ta

Nerys


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## lizardlover

Dexter said:


> That's what I thought till last night. By the way my sarcasm is crap because I was actually being ironic with my posts.
> 
> I had a thread locked last night just because I asked why a shop didn't use lamp guard, and was convinced by the mods that they can indeed sue the forum if they don't like what they read.
> 
> If the forum can be sued because of a hamrless and serious question, let alone if you come here and call a big institution a bunch of money grabbers and w**kers : victory:


lol!
i do agree that slandering a shop shoould not be allowed as that is sumones liveley hood but the rspca thing is people talking about their experiances with the rspca. plus shops are very small where as this so called group are rather large. Plsu they are no names that have bene names as far as i know ( not read lll the pages) but jsut about the institution and its practices in general


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