# OMG!! My iguana just eat a gold fish..



## cuckoo

I dono how to start this as im so shocked... For near a year now my ig has been in a 4x4x8ft viv and it has got a pond at the bottom. when i 1st built this viv and befor it was finished i thought it be funny to put 3 gold fish in the pond, well once the viv was all finished and ready for Flix to go in i dint think the fish would do any harm in there as ig's are veg eaters and they dont eat fish. well any way as time has gone on Flix has spent many hours watching the fish and neva seem to be botherd about them being there so again ive left them and they are now getting to a nice size. This morning i come down as norm go around and feed all my rep's, and then go in to see flix with his veg and to feed the fish, all good and as norm, after i fed the fish 1 jumped out lol somit that had neva happened befor so I picked it up and put it back as ya do. now lol its my turn toast and T as ya do lol Well i just sat down and the bloody fish jumped back out and as quick as i could get up flix has shot down the bottom grab the fish by its head, smashed it on the floor a few times and necked it down in 1. Im well shocked and not to sure wat to do, is he going to be ok....... ive called my vet but am still waiting to her from him back............. ive now taken the other 2 fish out. And flix seems ok his just got a really proud look on his face like to say ( Yer m8 i got the F~#ker )

Dont no if this works but here is a pic of the viv

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...me-picture122787-finshed-took-10-days-put.jpg


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## mahender

guess it isnt that funny anymore. hope you got a laugh out of it. 

take it to the vets, i have no clue whether iguanas can digest bones etc. i wouldnt personally want to find out but my thought would be a vegataion based digestive tract is gonna have major problem. and all the issue of bones getting stuck and caught in the system. regradless of the digestive capability of your ig to prcess the meat. this is not good. AT ALL. 

this is another case why people debate all this and that where in fact coz we know so little about iguanas. it is best to stick to certain practices. (i would re-iterate at the end of the day you are responsible for your iguanas life or death. and no-one else) 

i.e no meat, no substrate. tried and tested diet, no cross habiting. 

but no, people always want 'ahem' debates. this is why stepping back on this forum is advisable, leaving the advice to the next generation of glory boys and girls so they can debate and pm and keep all their secrets and flagelate their egos. 
( i just needed to post on this thread) 

i cannot see how this can go in any way but not good. I hope for your iguanas sake that it makes a recovery and this is fixable. 

hopefully people will take heed and see it only has to happen once for an issue to arise. debate what you will, it only takes one opportunity or one second for the one peice of bark chip or one goldfish or one attack with another co habiting pet. 

personally id drive to the vets now....

think of it this way how much do us humans struggle with a tiny fish bone caught in our throats. your iguana is gonna have to digest this and excrete it somehow.


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## mahender

p.s. i would post this in the lizard section.


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## cuckoo

mahender said:


> guess it isnt that funny anymore. hope you got a laugh out of it.
> 
> take it to the vets, i have no clue whether iguanas can digest bones etc. i wouldnt personally want to find out but my thought would be a vegataion based digestive tract is gonna have major problem. and all the issue of bones getting stuck and caught in the system. regradless of the digestive capability of your ig to prcess the meat. this is not good. AT ALL.
> 
> this is another case why people debate all this and that where in fact coz we know so little about iguanas. it is best to stick to certain practices. (i would re-iterate at the end of the day you are responsible for your iguanas life or death. and no-one else)
> 
> i.e no meat, no substrate. tried and tested diet, no cross habiting.
> 
> but no, people always want 'ahem' debates. this is why stepping back on this forum is advisable, leaving the advice to the next generation of glory boys and girls so they can debate and pm and keep all their secrets and flagelate their egos.
> ( i just needed to post on this thread)
> 
> i cannot see how this can go in any way but not good. I hope for your iguanas sake that it makes a recovery and this is fixable.
> 
> hopefully people will take heed and see it only has to happen once for an issue to arise. debate what you will, it only takes one opportunity or one second for the one peice of bark chip or one goldfish or one attack with another co habiting pet.
> 
> personally id drive to the vets now....
> 
> think of it this way how much do us humans struggle with a tiny fish bone caught in our throats. your iguana is gonna have to digest this and excrete it somehow.




i agree with wat you say m8, but in the 25years ive been in to reptiles ive neva mixed species. i dont use bark chip and have always fed and cared for my reps 100% to the T.. i neva thought the fish would do any harm and people have told me it was ok....... i would have gone to the vet right away but as i called them i already new the vet i need to see aint there....


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## cuckoo

Vet has now called me back and told me there is nothing to worry about and not to feed him for the rest of the day, there bodys can digest the fish as its not uncommon for wild iguana to eat things they shouldnt, ie fish, bugs and small rodents


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## hippyhaplos

I won't go into the whole irresponsible thing...

But that 'pond' is a mere puddle, for goldfish who need massive tanks... you bought the fish... you owe them the correct care.


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## cuckoo

hippyhaplos said:


> I won't go into the whole irresponsible thing...
> 
> But that 'pond' is a mere puddle, for goldfish who need massive tanks... you bought the fish... you owe them the correct care.


LMAO the puddle as you call it is 3ft by 2ft and 1half ft deep and i think that was fine for a 3inch goldfish dont you lol there in a 1ft squar fish tank now lol so they wer better of in the pond as far as size gos and if your so worryed a bout the fish you can have them,


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## hippyhaplos

cuckoo said:


> LMAO the puddle as you call it is 3ft by 2ft and 1half ft deep and i think that was fine for a 3inch goldfish dont you lol there in a 1ft squar fish tank now lol so they wer better of in the pond as far as size gos


It wasn't fine for a 3'' goldfish, let alone 3...

Take it reading up on cycling/filtration/stocking levels etc was just asking too much?


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## hippyhaplos

cuckoo said:


> i agree with wat you say m8, but in the 25years ive been in to reptiles ive neva mixed species. i dont use bark chip and have *always fed and cared for my reps 100% to the T*.. i neva thought the fish would do any harm and people have told me it was ok....... i would have gone to the vet right away but as i called them i already new the vet i need to see aint there....


I take it the fish just weren't worth the hassle?


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## cuckoo

hippyhaplos said:


> I take it the fish just weren't worth the hassle?


lmao aint you got nothing better to do then pick bits from how i wrote them, you no wat i ment. i come on here for advice not bitchy comments, Get a life if ya aint got nothing good to say or any help then DONT COMMENT


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## hippyhaplos

cuckoo said:


> lmao aint you got nothing better to do then pick bits from how i wrote them, you no wat i ment. i come on here for advice not F#~king bitchy comments, Get a life if ya aint got nothing good to say or any help then DONT COMMENT


You took on pets without researching them and you haven't met their needs... not to mention the fact you let one get eaten by a vegetarian animal :bash::bash:

You want advice? Rehome the goldfish with someone who can care for them, and read up on an animals care before you get them.


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## mahender

cuckoo said:


> i agree with wat you say m8,* but in the 25years ive been in to reptiles ive neva mixed species. i dont use bark chip and have always fed and cared for my reps 100% to the T..* i neva thought the fish would do any harm and people have told me it was ok....... i would have gone to the vet right away but as i called them i already new the vet i need to see aint there....


 
except this one time. 

iggies are opportunistic feeders.


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## cuckoo

mahender said:


> except this one time.
> 
> iggies are opportunistic feeders.





Wats done is done, and yer i have learnt now i shouldn't have had the fish in there. ive neva been told or read any where that iggies are opportunistic feeders yer i no of people feeding them crickets or locusts ( witch is a no no ) but i dint think he would eat the fish as his neva eaten anything other then veg and fruit befor... and neva shown intrest in the fish (as food)...... I just hope my vet is right and Flix is going to be ok....... i have also now heard a story about some1 elses iggie eating a bird and he was ok so its sound hopefull


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## bollocklegs

nice set up tho mate !!:2thumb:


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## cuckoo

bollocklegs said:


> nice set up tho mate !!:2thumb:




Ta m8


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## Supern3

who says they are NOT MEANT to eat fish.

vet has already confirmed that they eat things in the wild opportunistically,

the reason people say THEY ARE vegetarians, and they are MEANT to eat so and so etc, is because through trial and error, it has been confirmed that the preferential diet has been vegetation.


I wouldnt worry about the comments from the muppets who want nothing but to try and make you feel bad.
Your VET is the one who you should listen to.

I dont care about putting it out there, but if anyone has a problem, don't clog up this thread, pm me.

Nick


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## cavan

really nice setup, and as for iggy eating gold fish, it was a mistake and mistakes happen, its how you move foreward and learn from em that count


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Hope he is going to be ok.

Over in the Shelled section it is always advised never to feed goldfish to turtles - a question which comes up fairly regularly - because they contain the enzyme thiaminase and you run the risk of causing a vitamin B deficiency, which can be fatal.

Presumably this is applicable in the case of an iguana eating one as well, but obviously your Vet would know this?


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## Salazare Slytherin

Replied to PM 

too mahender, sorry I had only one more comment to add before I place you onto ignore, my Private messaging system is open to everyone. 
Perhaps some things I won't post onto the forums and is for good reasons that you have obviously had no knowledge or expirience with and given the wrong information to the wrong people can be dangerouse. 


feeding my ego has nothing to do with it. 
and Speaking with other keepers the only real one who does not seem to know these methods is you? because you take everything you read as efficient gospel. (in a very weird way I am thankful because I can see that attitude posting them all over the forums and doing more harm than good to be honest.
unless of course that ego thought enterd your own mind because thats how you get by on daily life? 
I don't know.

to be honest, I am pretty much not too botherd on whether I get thanked, applauded, criticised I read what I do in the moment in time and offer help if I think something will help, feeding mine, or anyone elses egos has nothing to do with it.
If you are interested, in learning what those and these methods are, perhaps speaking to some of the older, generations of people when your not sat there blabbering away and comming across arsey and posting in haste  (nit picking) 

Perhaps it is you that looks for a debate looking back through all of my quotes, and please do not make me list them. 
and sabotaging posts and then offering no suggestions. and when you do its a complete contradiction of your own care routine. 
I think you are taking this all a bit too personally.
Sorry for the slight hijack, 

I agree with the others and quite frankly, iguanas have been known to eat worse things than a goldfish before and survive so my thoughts are going down that route for the moment. 

Speaking to the OP after the vets, it seems the only thing we can do is watch, if something like that happned to future keepers in the future the only real thing you can do, is speak to your vet, watch the stomach for swelling, and watch for vomiting. 
also keep an eye on his feeding and if anything turns to obnormal take him straight back to the vets because as said the little bones could be blocking something or cant move.

Please also note that if something like the above should happen you will need to seek a professional.

I would also like to point out this is never a good reason to cohabit species.


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## MrGaz

O I do love all the forum fighters, sat behind a screen all day look how hard I am and so on. 
I can tell you every thing that your doing wrong and diss you till I am blue in the face 
Till I go to school in the morning and have my sweets and dinner taken off me lol

Muppets


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## Salazare Slytherin

hippyhaplos said:


> You took on pets without researching them and you haven't met their needs... not to mention the fact you let one get eaten by a vegetarian animal :bash::bash:
> 
> You want advice? Rehome the goldfish with someone who can care for them, and read up on an animals care before you get them.


 
It is an easy mistake to make, people house fish etc with waterdragons and other lizards. 
the odds are pretty much astonomical for an iguana to eat a goldfish... 

While I understand that you might love fish, in reality the iguanas health is now of main concern where as the gold fish is not.
So headbashing the OP is not going to fix anything, the best thing to do is don't read the posts. 

Unfortunately this is probibly an accident and a one off, I dont think I have ever seen or even herd of this one come up before. 

At the end of the day, noone would have thought a goldfish would have been consumed by an iguana, I just hope a lesson has been learnt from this mistake. 
I for one am actually glad the OP posted this, it is a good example for why these things are never a good idea.


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## cuckoo

Ta Salazare Slytherin for all your help, this forum needs more foks like ya self
Have pm ya back


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## Salazare Slytherin

cuckoo said:


> Ta Salazare Slytherin for all your help, this forum needs more foks like ya self
> Have pm ya back


 
your welcome mate.: victory: 
il pm you my msn if your interested?


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## bothrops

I wonder how iguanas have managed to survive the last few tens of millions of years without you guys there to tell them what they can and can't eat :bash:


The amount of snobbery in herpetoculture is unbelievable. "I'm the only one who can possibly be right and if you do it different then you are a animal abusing evil deveil spawn who should be banned from keeping animals". Jeeshh, seriously guys, sort it out.


At work we have our two adult female iguanas in a mixed exhibit with red footed tortoise and cane toads....oh yeah, we've also got a dirty horrible muddy bioactive substrate :gasp:....I guess a few on here will be telling me that we haven't a clue what we are doing and shouldn't be keeping animals..... (I'll not embarrass you by discussing the qualifications of my colleagues)

Iggies in the wild will often consume things as a by-product of eating their staple diets (mostly inverts stuck on foliage, or eggs occasionally) and they don't simply fall out of the trees dead. I've seen a number of wild iggies walking around on the forest floor and have also seen puddles and streams in the forest floor that house fish. Though I have never actually seen it, it is certainly not impossible to imagine that the odd wild fish has met its end down the throat of a wild iguana.

My ideal diet is far from what I plough down my throat yet even if I had the 'perfect' diet every day, perfectly tailored to my every need, I really wouldn't drop dead if I happened to chow down on a cream cake or a packet of skittles.


There is a massive difference between a genuine mistake (or one-in-a-thousand freak occurance) and someone who force feeds their iggy cat food and ham and cheese (genuinely:whip or keeps the animal in a draughty cold conservatory with a broken window in the middle of winter with no heat.

Please get down off you enormous horses and share your knowledge and experiences in supportive and sharing way instead. It'll be much better all round.





Stephen P said:


> Hope he is going to be ok.
> 
> Over in the Shelled section it is always advised never to feed goldfish to turtles - a question which comes up fairly regularly - because they contain the enzyme thiaminase and you run the risk of causing a vitamin B deficiency, which can be fatal.
> 
> Presumably this is applicable in the case of an iguana eating one as well, but obviously your Vet would know this?


You are not involved with the above rant, but thought I'd just point out that thiaminase can lead to a vit B defiency but only if you try a staple of goldfish for fish eating animals, not if a single fish is eaten by mistake as a complete one-off.:2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin

bothrops said:


> I wonder how iguanas have managed to survive the last few tens of millions of years without you guys there to tell them what they can and can't eat :bash:
> 
> 
> The amount of snobbery in herpetoculture is unbelievable. "I'm the only one who can possibly be right and if you do it different then you are a animal abusing evil deveil spawn who should be banned from keeping animals". Jeeshh, seriously guys, sort it out.
> 
> 
> At work we have our two adult female iguanas in a mixed exhibit with red footed tortoise and cane toads....oh yeah, we've also got a dirty horrible muddy bioactive substrate :gasp:....I guess a few on here will be telling me that we haven't a clue what we are doing and shouldn't be keeping animals..... (I'll not embarrass you by discussing the qualifications of my colleagues)
> 
> Iggies in the wild will often consume things as a by-product of eating their staple diets (mostly inverts stuck on foliage, or eggs occasionally) and they don't simply fall out of the trees dead. I've seen a number of wild iggies walking around on the forest floor and have also seen puddles and streams in the forest floor that house fish. Though I have never actually seen it, it is certainly not impossible to imagine that the odd wild fish has met its end down the throat of a wild iguana.
> 
> My ideal diet is far from what I plough down my throat yet even if I had the 'perfect' diet every day, perfectly tailored to my every need, I really wouldn't drop dead if I happened to chow down on a cream cake or a packet of skittles.
> 
> 
> There is a massive difference between a genuine mistake (or one-in-a-thousand freak occurance) and someone who force feeds their iggy cat food and ham and cheese (genuinely:whip or keeps the animal in a draughty cold conservatory with a broken window in the middle of winter with no heat.
> 
> Please get down off you enormous horses and share your knowledge and experiences in supportive and sharing way instead. It'll be much better all round.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are not involved with the above rant, but thought I'd just point out that thiaminase can lead to a vit B defiency but only if you try a staple of goldfish for fish eating animals, not if a single fish is eaten by mistake as a complete one-off.:2thumb:


your a terrible keeper bothrobs! 
how dare you! you cruel person. 

nah seriously nicely phrased.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Bothrops - thank you for you comment. I added the comment about the turtles and fish as I thought it would be helpful, but sometimes on here that is anybody's guess!


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## mahender

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Replied to PM
> 
> too mahender, sorry I had only one more comment to add before I place you onto ignore, my Private messaging system is open to everyone.
> Perhaps some things I won't post onto the forums and is for good reasons that you have obviously had no knowledge or expirience with and given the wrong information to the wrong people can be dangerouse.
> 
> 
> feeding my ego has nothing to do with it.
> and Speaking with other keepers the only real one who does not seem to know these methods is you? *because you take everything you read as efficient gospel*. (in a very weird way I am thankful because I can see that attitude posting them all over the forums and doing more harm than good to be honest.
> unless of course that ego thought enterd your own mind because thats how you get by on daily life?
> I don't know.
> 
> to be honest, I am pretty much not too botherd on whether I get thanked, applauded, criticised I read what I do in the moment in time and offer help if I think something will help, feeding mine, or anyone elses egos has nothing to do with it.
> If you are interested, in learning what those and these methods are, perhaps speaking to some of the older, generations of people when your not sat there blabbering away and comming across arsey and posting in haste  (nit picking)
> 
> Perhaps it is you that looks for a debate looking back through all of my quotes, and please do not make me list them.
> and sabotaging posts and then offering no suggestions. and when you do its a complete contradiction of your own care routine.
> I think you are taking this all a bit too personally.
> Sorry for the slight hijack,
> 
> I agree with the others and quite frankly, iguanas have been known to eat worse things than a goldfish before and survive so my thoughts are going down that route for the moment.
> 
> Speaking to the OP after the vets, it seems the only thing we can do is watch, if something like that happned to future keepers in the future the only real thing you can do, is speak to your vet, watch the stomach for swelling, and watch for vomiting.
> also keep an eye on his feeding and if anything turns to obnormal take him straight back to the vets because as said the little bones could be blocking something or cant move.
> 
> Please also note that if something like the above should happen you will need to seek a professional.
> 
> I would also like to point out this is never a good reason to cohabit species.


why wouldnt i take the trusted sources as gospel. here is an analogy:-

i have never seen a child jump into an open fire or i have never seen a baby fall down a flight of stairs. but that didnt mean that i didnt put a fire guard up or a baby gate on my steps with my daughter. 
should i have debated the necessity for this? should i have pleasantly pm'd people or perhaps i should have waited for an incident to occur then hoped people would understand that children will fall or are curious? and the fact that i feel bad so please dont bash me. 

i dont think the same reaction would have been seen.
" but that is a human, that is different" is it though do people afford more regard for the life of a human as opposed to a pet. 

dya know my baby fell down the stairs but its ok now hes only got some bruises and a broken arm. 
ah well whats done is done i have learned. 

my point being do you have a pet or do you have another life in your hands that it is duty and respnsibility to provide the best care you can. 

are you telling me that you are all trying different things to see what will work and what wont and this is done at the iguanas expense. 

it would seem here that as long as the OP's feelings arent hurt then its ok
and that is your attitude of friendliness to the poster and person as opposed to what is right or correct for the animal in question. 

I am sure that the iguanas are ok with this. after all he is the one who has to process the gold fish throught its system and cause any unessecary stress physically and emotionally. and i refuse to trail and error on my iguana. i guess i can leave that to you guys. 

so yes i follow my trusted care routine and information to gospel cause i have to provide the best life in captivity that i can with my limited knowledge and until i have acquired more knowledge or heard something that is new to me from a respected owner then i wont be changing my strict routine.
because if it has worked for the GIS, Melissa Kaplan, henry lizard lover, jen swofford, philip de voejes (sp) and the other people then they have dedicated far more time and energy and resources into seeing that they live well than i will ever have the time to.
these are old literatures but relatively new to the ig world, when was MK'slast update 2002 IIRC. 

tbh i dont really understand why if the majority of literature say substrate isnt good to have in cative vivariums. what is peoples mentality when they do put these things in?
do they read where it says no and then think " well it says no, but f**k it" 
please explain.

I guess the difference between us is that i dont really care about the owners feelings, the iguana is of the main concern its well being and its mental wealth.
and none of it is stuff i make up unlike some or misinterpret.

i would much prefer knowing that an iguana is well than a persons feelings arent hurt.


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## mahender

bothrops said:


> I wonder how iguanas have managed to survive the last few tens of millions of years without you guys there to tell them what they can and can't eat :bash:
> 
> Do you mean in captivity? do you mean when people thought iguanas were omnivores. did the iguanas survive or live? not at one point in my time on this forum has it ever been about my own ego or whether i am buddies with the poster. evoloution has dictated that there digestive system is set up for digestion of foliage and plant matter. relatively recent studies have shown this. by nature of that statement is it ok if an iguana ingest the odd coin or bit of carpet? after all they have survived millions of years havent they.
> 
> The amount of snobbery in herpetoculture is unbelievable. "I'm the only one who can possibly be right and if you do it different then you are a animal abusing evil deveil spawn who should be banned from keeping animals". Jeeshh, seriously guys, sort it out.
> 
> has the OP not just abused his animal by implementing a situation that could and should have been avoidable with proper readng? now the whole scenario has caused mental stress for the OP and more importantly physical and bioligical stress on his charge.
> there is a difference between ego snobbery and trying to advocate correct care for your pet. It isnt me who is saying that i am right, it is the GIS, MK's Sheets, Jen swoffords, and a lot of the other literature that is out there that has done a lot more research and studying than anyone on this forum.
> 
> At work we have our two adult female iguanas in a mixed exhibit with red footed tortoise and cane toads....oh yeah, we've also got a dirty horrible muddy bioactive substrate :gasp:....I guess a few on here will be telling me that we haven't a clue what we are doing and shouldn't be keeping animals..... (I'll not embarrass you by discussing the qualifications of my colleagues)
> 
> so is it ok to put substrate in peoples vivs? would you recommend mixing species let alone housing multiple iguanas. i am asking whether you would recommend it. the fact that it has worked for your establishment isnt in question. would above be your response if someone asked you?
> 
> If i posted a lot of links about the need to have safe substrate due to the 'possibility' of impaction and intestinal blockage, would you re-adivse with your above statement?
> 
> Iggies in the wild will often consume things as *a by-product* of eating their staple diets (mostly inverts stuck on foliage, or eggs occasionally) and they don't simply fall out of the trees dead. *I've seen a number of wild iggies walking around on the forest floor and have also seen puddles and streams in the forest floor that house fish*.
> sure as a by-product yes just because an iguana is opportunistic doesnt mean that we as carers and god to these creatures should or would want to place them in that situation.
> should i throw the odd egg or fly on my iguanas dinner just to replicate his life in the wild?
> 
> im sure that it is entirely possible that iguanas will walk around on the floor and that a pond may contain fish. what is your point?
> 
> 
> Though I have never actually seen it, it is certainly not impossible to imagine that the odd wild fish has met its end down the throat of a *wild* iguana.
> our igs aren't in the wild. we dont afford an iguana the same access to the diet they have in the wild. so by reasoning we are trying to provide all the nutritional content we can with the foods we have available at our disposal. so they may be lacking in essential nutrients that are found in the wild so therefore may not have the capability to handle the odd bug as they would in the wild. hence why correct diet is so essential.
> dya know we have to sprinkle our igs food with calcium powder to supplement i am sure i have never seen an iguana in the wild with a tub of nutrobal in his back pack.
> 
> My ideal diet is far from what I plough down my throat yet even if I had the 'perfect' diet every day, perfectly tailored to my every need, I really wouldn't drop dead if I happened to chow down on a cream cake or a packet of skittles.
> 
> do you feed your child what you plough down your throat or do you try and give him/her the ideal foods and life you can. yes your child wont fall down dead either. or by that reasoning it is ok to give the odd bit of animal protein?? once in a while. should the GIS FOOD CHART HAVE A SUPER TREAT SECTION BEYOND THE FRUIT TREATS THAT HAS A BIT OF STEAK OR AN EGG ETC?? WITH A DESCRIPTION THAT STATES FEED MAYBE ONCE A YEAR???
> 
> There is a massive difference between a genuine mistake (or one-in-a-thousand freak occurance) and someone who force feeds their iggy cat food and ham and cheese (genuinely:whip or keeps the animal in a draughty cold conservatory with a broken window in the middle of winter with no heat.
> 
> Please get down off you enormous horses and share your knowledge and experiences in supportive and sharing way instead. It'll be much better all round.
> maybe some people are on their enormous horses so they can charge on the side of the iguana with no voice. if for example i had told the OP a year ago when he thought it woud be fun to put fish in the viv that it was a bad idea beacuse of the potential of what may happen. and this happened as normal now a year later. what would peoples reactions be.
> would it be the same 'you must be so hurt with those meanies on the forum, have a cup of tea' it was a mistake. no harm done.
> ha does everyone thinkn this will have done no harm to the iguanas body?
> 
> You are not involved with the above rant, but thought I'd just point out that thiaminase can lead to a vit B defiency but only if you try a staple of goldfish for fish eating animals, not if a single fish is eaten by mistake as a complete one-off.:2thumb:
> 
> I see now how it is ok cause it was an accident, i also see how this would be have been totally unavoidable. even if the OP had followed literature statiing do not house or mix species and didnt have the fish in their in the first place that this would have still happened. correct?


.........


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## mahender

one more post regarding the thread recently about the 'debate' regarding variety of diet as oppossed to teh requirements. 

to poorly quote the matrix. 



> 'it is a synthetic mixture of proteins and acids, everything the body needs'
> 
> ' it doesnt have everything the body needs'


we choose to enrich our igs life doesnt mean that they cant thrive off a diet that provides their nutritional requirements. igs in captivity will have much more access to palatable delights than in the wild. 

it was mentioned a while ago that i dont know much only about my iguana and all iguanas are different. 
wrong......

iguanas nature and characteristic traits are different. that is different than their living requirements. 

basic care is basic care this hasnt changed and wont change till the next evloutionary remodel. 

when people post on here they are predominantly new poeple asking about husbandry questions. this will be the same for us all and the same for every green iguana, species iguana iguana. 

once the basic care needs have been met. then you can then take on the task of refinement based on your iguans individual personaility and charachter. 

i hope that makes sense. 


its just we wish to make it more interesting and provide taste.

also on a side note. 

in the heirarchal roles of society ( rfuk society too) and peoples natures. 

a newbie will see someone with a bit of knowledge as a master or 'the man' where as to someone with more experience this person will be a mediocre player and not really held in much regard. 

and the cycle continues. for example bexzini has been pointed out to people that she is someone people should listen to regarding ig care, that is by you dixon. 
where as in fact she has no iguana, doesnt relly know iguanas, is only just learning and still has the ability to post mis information but cause you post that she is good then new people will come and see that she is some minor guru. and listen to her advice blindly. ( this is just how people work) newbies have little confidence so will see anyone with some knowledge as gospel. and add to the fact. people can blag their status and credibility with tier confident writing or speaking style. it is only when the higher people on the tier question that the flaws are esposed. 

now the last bit is not directly aimed at you dixon but is more a general psychological typing. 

to conclude my half tangeible rant. i will post what is required for the iguana not for the owner. care i care. and the price of taking on one of these amazing and beautiful creatures is that you have to pay and provide for what and everything that is needed. 

if you cannot do that then dont get one. shimples. 

regards mahender.


----------



## cuckoo

Thanks *bothrops* it makes a change on her to have people giving out advice 2 some 1 that has done somit wrong instead of just bitchin .. A big Thank you to every 1 that did cair about the igg and not the poxy fish, your words of wisdom have been noted down and if i can eva help any of you out just ask me :2thumb: ta every1
Ps Flix seems fine 2day and hes eating ok am just waiting for him to pooh


----------



## bothrops

I won't pick up on everything, but I will pick up on a couple of bits....


Regarding the 'burning and beating babies' analogy.

It is a totally and utterly proposterous thing to compare intentionally risking the life of a child and making a simple error of judgement. A far more appropriate analogy would be that you left your child in a room alone and they managed to climb on the sofa and fall off whilst you were gone.

This is more appropriate because (a) the sofa (fish) were assumed to be harmless (b) the assumption is logical because iguanas don't usually eat fish and sofas don't usually harm young children.

Your entire reaction to the OP's post and subsequent reply to Salerzare are completely over the top and disproportionate to what happened. This was an accident due to an error of judgement.

Claiming we clearly don't care about the animals and only would if it were a baby is as rediculous as your proposterous analogy.

Put it this way, if we use my far more appropriate analogy above the appropriate reasonable response to the 'baby situation' would be 'Don't beat yourself up too much. Accidents happen. You weren't to know that the toddler would climb and fall, however, maybe it is sensible in future not to leave the kid alone for as long.' 

No sensible reasonable person would response with 'OMG - hope you're happy, I think you should have you're kids taken off you as you're clearly an irresponsible child abuser....'

This would therefore have been a much more appropriate response in this case.

"Wow - what a strange thing to happen. I certainly have never heard of anything like it before. However, my experience and research has shown that iggys are opportunistic feeders and so perhaps it was not a wise idea to keep the fish in there in the first place. Anyway, you've done the right thing calling the vets and taking the fish out, let us know how the lizard gets on!"



I would like to bet that every single one of the names you have listed in your thread as your 'iggy husbandry gods' would have responded in the way I just have there rather than your completely OTT, rude and condesending post.






mahender said:


> tbh i dont really understand why if the majority of literature say substrate isnt good to have in cative vivariums. what is peoples mentality when they do put these things in?
> do they read where it says no and then think " well it says no, but f**k it"
> please explain.
> .


Taking your arguement to its logical extreme, you clearly have no branches or high areas in your viv in case the animal falls, or you have no glass in case it falls against it (or you do) and break it and he gets cut....you don't ever let your animal out or touch it or cuddle it for arty photos in case he leaps off you and breaks a leg or runs and knocks a plant pot on itself etc etc.....

I take it you strap its legs up to its body and restrain its tail with a gentle cotton wool harness and keep it in a cottonwool lined sling lest it damage itself in anyway whilst moving around its viv, and then tube feed it the absolute perfect combination of nutrients and vitamins and minerals lest it chokes on a large bit of dandlion.........


Hopefully you can see that the above is completely over the top and extreme and I know you don't or wouldn't do anything of the above. My point is that it is impossible (and totally unnecessary) to remove risk although you can elimate obvious dangers.

As animal keepers it is up to the individual to assess the risk of any particular factor and take appropriate action to minimise that risk. This can go too far (as above) or not far enough. That line is subjective and although it is clear where your line is, it is totally arrogant to assume that if others see it slightly different that they are somehow evil. How would you feel if someone said that because you took you iguana out for a photoshoot that you were an evil animal abuser?

re: substrate - I see impaction as a low risk in iggys provided certain obvious stupid things are avoided. i.e. keeping on sand and scatterfeeding wet leaves straight onto it is stupid and would deserve the response you gave to the OP. Keeping on a well worked and carefully looked after bioactive substrate and feeding on a plastic shelf/feeding tray with a lip to stop spillage = perfectly acceptable husbandry. In fact, a bioactive substrate may be much much better for the iguana in terms of overall husbandry (quaility of life, traction during floor locomotion, digging enrichment and humidity maintenance) than a plain, wipe clean floor. Like I said, there is plenty more to it than 'most care sheets I've read say...'.

The risk of compaction from a well managed bioactive substrate is negligable and I would actually put the risk of damage through falling onto a plain, hard, wipe clean floor as a higher risk than the risk of impaction from said substrate. I would be interested to hear a well argued and reasonable response to this?

Therefore:


so is it ok to put substrate in peoples vivs? yes 100% provided certain steps are taken and the correcct type is used. 

would you recommend mixing species let alone housing multiple iguanas. i am asking whether you would recommend it. the fact that it has worked for your establishment isnt in question. would above be your response if someone asked you? 
I would suggest that it depends on many factors. It simply isn't as clear as you make out (i.e. evil, bad, no, no, no (Ms Kaplan say so)). I would actually say the following:

In general private keeping the mixing of species is not recommended. Also in view of the sizes of most private enclosures, it is not recommended to house multiple iguanas in the same vivarium. However, this doesn't mean it can't be done. Whether you choose to cohabit or mix species depends on your experience, your knowledge of the species and the appropriate sex ratios, the size of enclosure you have, the type of enclosure you have (natural, naturalistic, sterile...), the amount of time you can spend monitoring and adjusting the enclosure and ratios/numbers, the ability to house and seperate if necessary, the expertise to identify behaviours and symptons that would indicate issues, your rationale for keeping (breeding, show, tame pet, slice of the wild)... etc etc etc.

i.e. I would not (and neither would any of the people you so rightly admire) simply state 'it can't be done and if you do it you are abusing your pet'.



should i throw the odd egg or fly on my iguanas dinner just to replicate his life in the wild? No, but neither should you freak out if your iguana happens to eat a fly!

do you feed your child what you plough down your throat or do you try and give him/her the ideal foods and life you can. yes your child wont fall down dead either. or by that reasoning it is ok to give the odd bit of animal protein?? once in a while. should the GIS FOOD CHART HAVE A SUPER TREAT SECTION BEYOND THE FRUIT TREATS THAT HAS A BIT OF STEAK OR AN EGG ETC?? WITH A DESCRIPTION THAT STATES FEED MAYBE ONCE A YEAR??? 
Don't have kids, but if I did I would give them the best food I could (just like the OP gives his iguana). I also wouldn't freak out if they happened to eat a whole block of butter that I left out (I left it out as I wouldn't expect the kid to eat it). It might not be good for them, but it certainly isn't going to kill him. You're implying that the OP feeds fish as a treat or that we should give the iggy inappropriate foods. I'm merely suggesting that a freak on-off occurance didn't deserve the response you gave. 







This entire debate had nothing to do with humans over iguanas or being polite for the sake of it.

It has everything to do with the help, sharing of experience and education rather than abuse and belittleling. 


You have plenty of valuable knowledge and experience to share, but you would get a hell of a lot more respect for it, if you suggested improvements backed up by knowledge, experience and reference rather than attacked and belittled anything that doesn't come up to your exacting standards.


----------



## Supern3

totally agree.
top post.

its kind of like what i was trying to say.


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Well this here breifly mentions someone who Melisa Kaplan includes in her work, when I decided to email him.
I was of course gaining some infomation on the substrate debate we took part in, although this is not the case here, he does include some points I am about to highlight in his response.



as promised here is one of many emails I have had, this is the most recent one received of *adam* *britton* 

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Dixon [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, 21 April 2011 6:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Iguanas.



Hi Craig,

The concern over bark in enclosures is simply this. If an iguana ingests a
piece of bark that's the *wrong shape and size, it could prove fatal*. There
have been several cases where this has happened, and a necropsy has revealed
a bit of bark stuck in the gut.
(in this case it could be bones)

But what about iguanas in the wild? That's a good question, and what's
needed is to put it into perspective. I'm quite sure that iguanas in the
wild do occasionally die from eating the wrong thing. 
Also, bear in mind that iguanas in captivity often have behavioural issues
as a result of being enclosed in a small space often with other iguanas.
This may cause them to ingest items that they might otherwise leave alone.
*(as bothrobs said) he never responded in a way to say it cannot or should never be done/*
Whether they get bored, inquisitive, hungry, whatever, the outcome can be
the same.* Iguanas also eat things which pass harmlessly through their gut -*
*eating a piece of bark isn't always the end of the world.*

*in this case it would be the fish.*

So what I'm trying to paint here is a picture of perspective. *There's always*
*a risk that your pet iguana is going to die from some cause you didn't*
*intend*. Using bark chips is seen by some people as another risk they don't
want to deal with but has been used effectively, and so they don't use them and furthermore advise others
not to use them either. That doesn't mean you're necessarily taking a dire
risk by using them, and indeed if you have plenty of space and a nice setup
(as most zoos would have) then a lot of this risk is mitigated. But
*ultimately it's not a black and white thing. *

Best wishes
*Adam*


----------



## mahender

first off i would llike to say to the OP that me continuing this is not to do with you. it is a response to bothrops points.



> It is a totally and utterly proposterous thing to compare intentionally risking the life of a child and making a simple error of judgement. A far more appropriate analogy would be that you left your child in a room alone and they managed to climb on the sofa and fall off whilst you were gone.


why is it totally and utterly preposterous? why am i intentionally risking the life of a child no one assumes their gonna jump in the fire but we wouldnt want to take the risk in the first place. a far more appropriate situation to your analogy would be i left my viv door open and the iguana got out and ate one of the fish in the tank or my roast beef buttie i left on the side.
or
i had my iguana out making his veg and he spied my pizza on the side and started eating it. 

i dont wish to make this a battle of semantics, it is the intention i am stating.



> Your entire reaction to the OP's post and subsequent reply to Salerzare are completely over the top and disproportionate to what happened. This was an accident due to an error of judgement.


but the OP came on here caps locking. clearly he knew it wasnt good because his iguana ate a goldfish, if it was merely an accident why wasn't the post. 
" my iguana ate a goldfish but its ok cause they have been known to eat meat in the wild opportunistically and one or two wont make a difference" 

after all the goldfish were put in their for fun. the OP has 22 years more experience in herp care than i do. please understand that these thoughts are not to do with the op. it is my thought process in this instance.

regardless of the length of his knowldedge in iguana husbandry i cant help but believe their had to be research carried out into rep care in general. so by nature of the guy being intelligent and researching his other reps would it be correct to assume he had researched flix's care. 

so with my minimal knowledge and limited reading library i have managed to assess that it isnt good to co-habit. i have understood that co habiting is potentially ok and can only be purely and independantly determined. from iguana to iguana. 

i am also aware that iguanas are like children in as much as their curiosity will touch and lick and flick anything and usually try and eat it. 

so did the OP ig proof his house as best as possible when he lets his iguana out. this is in iguana basics.

my point being their are accidents and there are preventable accidents.



> Claiming we clearly don't care about the animals and only would if it were a baby is as rediculous as your proposterous analogy.


we all know the expendable nature of pets. that goes without saying. my point was the reaction would be different, therefore the level of importance placed on the life is disproportionate. considering everyone on here is a rep lover then wouldnt we want the utmost care for our charges.




> Put it this way, if we use my far more appropriate analogy above the appropriate reasonable response to the 'baby situation' would be 'Don't beat yourself up too much. Accidents happen. You weren't to know that the toddler would climb and fall, however, maybe it is sensible in future not to leave the kid alone for as long.'


i would if it were this,
a far more appropriate situation to your analogy would be i left my viv door open and the iguana got out and ate one of the fish in the tank 




> No sensible reasonable person would response with 'OMG - hope you're happy, I think you should have you're kids taken off you as you're clearly an irresponsible child abuser....'





> when i 1st built this viv and befor it was finished i thought it be funny to put 3 gold fish in the pond, well once the viv was all finished and ready for Flix to go in i dint think the fish would do any harm in there as ig's are veg eaters and they dont eat fish


.




> Taking your arguement to its logical extreme, you clearly have no branches or high areas in your viv in case the animal falls, or you have no glass in case it falls against it (or you do) and break it and he gets cut....you don't ever let your animal out or touch it or cuddle it for arty photos in case he leaps off you and breaks a leg or runs and knocks a plant pot on itself etc etc.....


yes i do and my baby has fallen but that is unavoidable. and at my photoshoots and anywhere else he is responsibly looked after and observed by nature of what he is capable of (curiosity) every and all reasonable precautions have and are taken, the only ones are unforeseen. was this an unforeseen potential risk?. and i have realised i do this to the extent that you would follow a just toddling baby around.


----------



## mahender

> re: substrate - I see impaction as a low risk in iggys provided certain obvious stupid things are avoided. i.e. keeping on sand and scatterfeeding wet leaves straight onto it is stupid and would deserve the response you gave to the OP. Keeping on a well worked and carefully looked after *bioactive substrate* and feeding on a plastic shelf/feeding tray with a lip to stop spillage = perfectly acceptable husbandry. In fact, a bioactive substrate may be much much better for the iguana in terms of overall husbandry (quaility of life, traction during floor locomotion, digging enrichment and humidity maintenance) than a plain, wipe clean floor. Like I said, there is plenty more to it than 'most care sheets I've read say...'.


i guess thats where we differ i see it as a potential risk that i wouldnt want to take. 
i dont think i could handle to come home from work on the one occsaion he has ingested some and choked.

what is bioactive substrate is that different than bark chips ??


----------



## KurtH

Can't be arsed to trawl through these MASSIVE posts as the OP initially mentioned about an Iggy eating a fish and now there's mention of substrate and God knows what else......:lol2:

Aslong as the goldfish wasn't carrying any diseases I'm sure the iggy will be fine, all I know is, that goldfish were never recommended as a feeder fish to other fish ie. Piranha, Bass Cichlid etc etc due to these diseases....

I'm sure it will be fine though : victory:


----------



## hippyhaplos

KurtH said:


> Can't be arsed to trawl through these MASSIVE posts as the OP initially mentioned about an Iggy eating a fish and now there's mention of substrate and God knows what else......:lol2:
> 
> Aslong as the goldfish wasn't carrying any diseases I'm sure the iggy will be fine, all I know is, that goldfish were never recommended as a feeder fish to other fish ie. Piranha, Bass Cichlid etc etc* due to these diseases*....
> 
> I'm sure it will be fine though : victory:


And the fact that it is totally unnecessary...


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

hippyhaplos said:


> And the fact that it is totally unnecessary...


why? lol the ops question has been answerd surely we can discuss the matter, and move onto other subjects to prove the origonal point of emphasis.: victory:


----------



## bothrops

I think the use of the term 'funny' was unfortunate. Even if it wasn't, the subsequent sentence indicates a rationale and defined assessment of risk rather than a specific and blatent 'I'm going to knowledgable put animals lives in danger'.

The point that I've been making is that the OP assessed the risk, and based on his knowledge, thought it would be an acceptable one.

The fact that you or I or anyone else may have read something or experienced something that would lead us to assess the level of risk differently does not automatically give us the right to talk to/reply to the OPs post with distain and contempt. Risk is only avoidable if you are aware it is a risk in the first place.

(think heatmats and stats. Many people are told by 'trusted sources' that they do not need stats on mats as they don't get hot enough. It is only because of our levels of knowledge and shared experiences (many through this forum and others) that we know different. Therefore it is our duty to inform others of the risk if they do not know different (after all, why wouldn't they trust the guy in the reptile shop that is selling them the animal? Why shouldn't they take his word for it?) not to berate and scold them for not reading the right book or forum post. 





mahender said:


> i guess thats where we differ i see it as a potential risk that i wouldnt want to take.
> i dont think i could handle to come home from work on the one occsaion he has ingested some and choked.
> 
> what is bioactive substrate is that different than bark chips ??


Bioactive substrate is the way forward! It is usually a mix of soil, orchid bark, compost, coir etc (sometimes over gravel or hydroleca to improve drainage). The substrate is spawned with tropical woodlice, springtails and other micro-organisms and decomposers. 

The idea is that any faeces and urine is not removed, but turned into the substrate. The micro-organisms then go through the natural processes of decomposition and recycling. It holds humidity very well and is a very 'ecosystem' based husbandry technique.

It has been used for years with amphibians and other humidity loving species, but its virtues are being actively taken up with many species.


The main catch is your 'faeces to substrate ratio'. In dart frogs vivs this is not an issue as the amount of waste produced compared to the amount of substrate is tiny. Also in large zoo enclosures there is no issue. I would be cautious implementing this in most private iggy enclosures due to relatively large waste production and small floor area, That said, even with a relatively modest enclsoure, you could still remove large pieces of faeces with a trowel and it should be fine.

We use bioactive with a number of species (all our callitrichids, our SA exhibit described previously and our black lemurs, a number of the birds and obviously our amphibs and some of the lizards). I have also heard of it being used very successfully with larger primates.

I have heard of people thinking about using it with snakes, but I would be concerned about the benefits for animals that are laying on it all the time or in it all the time, unless I could be very aware of acidity levels, bacterial build up and water saturation (and this would also be species specific).

pros- easy to manage, looks great, uses the power of nature, retains humidity, allows great traction for floor locomotion, allows for enriching behaviours (digging, foraging in some species though not iggies), reduces smell and provides a soft landing for those clumsier climbers!

cons - needs to be managed (drainage, correct balance to avoid bacterial build up) - though once balanced is extremely low maintenance.


:2thumb:


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## bothrops

hippyhaplos said:


> And the fact that it is totally unnecessary...





Salazare Slytherin said:


> why? lol the ops question has been answerd surely we can discuss the matter, and move onto other subjects to prove the origonal point of emphasis.: victory:


I think hippy was pointing out that feeding goldfish to cichilids is unnecessary:2thumb:


----------



## hippyhaplos

Salazare Slytherin said:


> why? lol the ops question has been answerd surely we can discuss the matter, and move onto other subjects to prove the origonal point of emphasis.: victory:


I was just saying that there's no need to feed goldfish to other fish in captivity... people do it to act the big man, but it is totally unnecessary and barbaric.

sorry I wasn't meaning it in reference to discussions.


----------



## KurtH

hippyhaplos said:


> I was just saying that there's no need to feed goldfish to other fish in captivity... people do it to act the big man, but it is totally unnecessary and barbaric.
> 
> sorry I wasn't meaning it in reference to discussions.


Not really......

Fish are produced for this purpose and are known as 'feeder fish'.....

It's nothing to do with being the 'big man', it's what happens in their natural surroundings, (they're predatory fish) unless you know someone of course who sprinkles fish flake or frozen bloodworm across the Amazon River on a daily basis..... :lol2:

I guess it's ok to to feed insects and pinkies etc to reptiles though.....

EXACTLY!


----------



## Ratmandocymru

to the OP im glad that your iggy seems to be ok.

It may be too early in the morning for me :lol2:but im just trying to figure out why a vegetarian animal would all of a sudden decide to eat meat? would this be a form of Pica(sp.)? 

I can understand the mistake as to my mind a veggie animal wouldnt attempt to eat anything other than veg, it would be like worying that a carnivorous animal would suddenly attemp to eat the greenery in the viv. 

surely if iggies are 'oportunistic' feeders in the wild then wouldn't that mean that in some way their digestive system is set up to digest meat albeit in small quantities?


----------



## cuckoo

Ratmandocymru said:


> to the OP im glad that your iggy seems to be ok.
> 
> It may be too early in the morning for me :lol2:but im just trying to figure out why a vegetarian animal would all of a sudden decide to eat meat? would this be a form of Pica(sp.)?
> 
> I can understand the mistake as to my mind a veggie animal wouldnt attempt to eat anything other than veg, it would be like worying that a carnivorous animal would suddenly attemp to eat the greenery in the viv.
> 
> surely if iggies are 'oportunistic' feeders in the wild then wouldn't that mean that in some way their digestive system is set up to digest meat albeit in small quantities?



Hi yer i no its still early days but still fingers crossed, im not as worried as i was since now talking to loads of people and they seem to think the bones will pass thu ok..... also i have family in mexico who have igg's feeding in the back yard all the time and they go for waste food and have been seen eating rubbish and litter... i also got told that once my cuz cut his hand open and where there was blood on the floor the igg's wer licking it up.......so why would a veg eating lizard go for the smell of blood............. also with the bark subject i believe that bark can be passed thu there gut but due to the shape of bark you got a 50/50 chance it could get stuck....... i do use bark BUT only with my small lizards that cant fit bark in there mouths... all my larger lizards are iver on tile, slate, rep carpet or fake grass and even kitchen towel for my leo's..... but going back to the fish being eaten it dose make me wonder why the igg's in wild and cap would choose on rear time to eat something there not meant to... is it coz there body's are lacking in something and they no its quicker to top that up by say eating meat then fruit n veg....... All i do no is seeing an igg eat a fish is f~~ked up and he did it like it was natural and he had done it every day, was more like watching a heron eat a fish.


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## Salazare Slytherin

hippyhaplos said:


> I was just saying that there's no need to feed goldfish to other fish in captivity... people do it to act the big man, but it is totally unnecessary and barbaric.
> 
> sorry I wasn't meaning it in reference to discussions.


 
ah okay, I was very tired yesterday so I am just going to blame that:whistling2:, with the prev comment that we were all arguing etc etc I jumped to a conclusion, I see what you mean now though lol:lol2:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Ratmandocymru said:


> to the OP im glad that your iggy seems to be ok.
> 
> It may be too early in the morning for me :lol2:but im just trying to figure out why a vegetarian animal would all of a sudden decide to eat meat? would this be a form of Pica(sp.)?
> 
> I can understand the mistake as to my mind a veggie animal wouldnt attempt to eat anything other than veg, it would be like worying that a carnivorous animal would suddenly attemp to eat the greenery in the viv.
> 
> surely if iggies are 'oportunistic' feeders in the wild then wouldn't that mean that in some way their digestive system is set up to digest meat albeit in small quantities?


Well lets just put it this way, there digestive system is meant too be for plant matter, in the wild it is a nasty place filled with disease where it is hard to survive, and I have no doubt that a hungry iguana will take an oppurtunity to try something it would normally leave alone. 

For e.g an iguana will eat a bird egg, primarily just because it was there at the time and it was hungry, that does not mean it is right or for that matter normal, just like it is not natural for birds to eat thrown away pasties and sausage rolls. etc. 

I think we can agree at some point a wild animal will have eaten something it should not and I have no doubt that an iguana may have died through this at some point in the wild and maybey captivity too, this is where captivity and the wild become two very different things. 

In captivity it is our responisbility to ensure our animals are safe, and we proveide them with the best care we possibly can offer, meaning that we give them a diet (a safe one) where oppurtunist feeders are given less of an oppurtunity to harm there own welfare. 

the myth that the animal knows what is good for it it is untrue, I have herd stories of wild iguanas attempting to eat bikini tops, because the colours attracted them. 

In written reports when it is said to keep such and such a plant away from them it is usually for a good reason. 

The difference here is no book, or paperwork or probibly even scientific documents will say do not feed an iguana a gold fish simply because this was an accident and one that probibly does not come up very often to the common enthusiast.

At the end of the day, we can only do our best, based on our knowledge for our animals, and if that simply means that something was not assesed as a risk, at the moment in time then it was not a deliberate cause for the iguana to eat a fish. 

the best way to put it is, most wild animals do not live as long as what some captive ones do.
again we play god, and our animals depend entirely on us for there survival and I beleive we should do nothing but our best for them.

I for one would never have even thought twice that an iguana would not eat a goldfish, who the heck in there right mind would? 
but as it is, it happned, nothing we can do, other than learn from this expirience and make sure we dont do it ourselves.: victory:

Also with the carnivore eating veg thing, it is possible but is also likley to be one of those things of an accident, like for example some mammal eats a leaf and the carnivore attacks the mammal with the vegetation still in its mouth, technically it would then be eating the vegetation, although it is not normal, it may happen, just through the influence that it seen meat first, if that makes sense?


----------



## bothrops

Maybe animals are just as prone to eating the wrong things as we are?

We have free roaming peafowl at work and despite numerous attempts to keep them down on the animal unit and feed them appropriate grain based feeds, they spend all thier time up around the student areas feeding on crisps, chocolate and dropped sandwiches. TBH they look pretty good on it too :blush:

*Needs to find time to hit the journals*


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## Ratmandocymru

cheers salazare that kind of makes sense, i guess as reptile enthuisiasts(sp.) we learn new things every day : victory:


----------



## Salazare Slytherin

Ratmandocymru said:


> cheers salazare that kind of makes sense, i guess as reptile enthuisiasts(sp.) we learn new things every day : victory:


well this thread has been quite the education, thanks once again op for bringing this up: victory:
but dont be making a habit of it:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


----------



## hippyhaplos

KurtH said:


> Not really......
> 
> Fish are produced for this purpose and are known as 'feeder fish'.....
> 
> It's nothing to do with being the 'big man', it's what happens in their natural surroundings, (they're predatory fish) unless you know someone of course who sprinkles fish flake or frozen bloodworm across the Amazon River on a daily basis..... :lol2:
> 
> I guess it's ok to to feed insects and pinkies etc to reptiles though.....
> 
> EXACTLY!


What's natural about being confined in a glass tank a millionth the volume of their natural habitat? 

Piranhas mainly feed on fins, dead, and dying fish... they're not designed to hold onto large prey. They're also omnivorous, not strictly carnivorous so there truly is no need for fish to be torn into chunks alive. 

Pinkies are dead, and insects don't feel pain... fish do, and are very much alive. I take it you haven't seen videos of half eaten goldfish gasping at the surface of a tank for days on end as they die a slow, painful & miserable death? 

Ever seen someone releasing some 'feeder' goldfish into the amazon?


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## Omerov1986

hippyhaplos said:


> What's natural about being confined in a glass tank a millionth the volume of their natural habitat?
> 
> Piranhas mainly feed on fins, dead, and dying fish... they're not designed to hold onto large prey. They're also omnivorous, not strictly carnivorous so there truly is no need for fish to be torn into chunks alive.
> 
> Pinkies are dead, and insects don't feel pain... fish do, and are very much alive. I take it you haven't seen videos of half eaten goldfish gasping at the surface of a tank for days on end as they die a slow, painful & miserable death?
> 
> Ever seen someone releasing some 'feeder' goldfish into the amazon?




Yes, Yes, Cassius auratus are VERY native to the Amazon, staple diet of the piranha :bash:


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## hippyhaplos

Omerov1986 said:


> Yes, Yes, Cassius auratus are VERY native to the Amazon, staple diet of the piranha :bash:


I know... it's natural right?


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## cuckoo

Salazare Slytherin said:


> well this thread has been quite the education, thanks once again op for bringing this up: victory:
> but dont be making a habit of it:Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:


lol na prob glad ive been able to entertain you all for a few days, and no Flix's fish eating days are over his back to tail wipping lol as his better at that :whip:


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## KurtH

hippyhaplos said:


> Pinkies are dead, and insects don't feel pain... QUOTE]
> 
> :roll2::roll2::roll2:
> 
> Pinkies are KILLED by placing them in a freezer, other mice are KILLED with Carbon Dioxide :whistling2:
> 
> Insects have nerves so actually yeah, they probably do feel pain, and until you find a little insect that can tell you otherwise, than you can't really answer for them :whistling2:


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## Salazare Slytherin

cuckoo said:


> lol na prob glad ive been able to entertain you all for a few days, and no Flix's fish eating days are over his back to tail wipping lol as his better at that :whip:


 
haha, well take that as a good sign: victory:


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## hippyhaplos

KurtH said:


> hippyhaplos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pinkies are dead, and insects don't feel pain... QUOTE]
> 
> :roll2::roll2::roll2:
> 
> Pinkies are KILLED by placing them in a freezer, other mice are KILLED with Carbon Dioxide :whistling2:
> 
> Insects have nerves so actually yeah, they probably do feel pain, and until you find a little insect that can tell you otherwise, than you can't really answer for them :whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> Pinkies are flash frozen... it's humane.
> 
> Insects may respond to a stimuli, but they don't register the 'pain' in the same way as we do.
Click to expand...


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## Salazare Slytherin

hippyhaplos said:


> KurtH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pinkies are flash frozen... it's humane.
> 
> Insects may respond to a stimuli, but they don't register the 'pain' in the same way as we do.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, I have had it with crickets, when I have went to grab them, they have literally torn away there own legs to escape my grasp and they show no signs of being ill or stressed out by it, just skeptical observation anywasy.
> 
> I have no doubt though that there are ways to influence a reaction of pain in insects, like forest fires etc, they all have a tendency to move right out of the way of it.
> So that tells me it causes some kind of discomfort or pain to them, maybeu it is just the smoke fumes, who knows?
> 
> If insects did register pain like we do, I think I would have second thoughts about keeping geckos etc etc,
> it is just the circle of life, and maybey they were created to be eaten in a painless way ?
Click to expand...


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## cuckoo

HI all just to let you no Flix is still ok, his been eating and poohing well so hopefully the fish has passed thru all ok. will keep you posted if there is any change..... His def back to his old self lol but his getting the ump with me at mo, as im building him a waterfull and he realy dont like my drill lol. he jumps on my head and trys biting the drill.....


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## Salazare Slytherin

cuckoo said:


> HI all just to let you no Flix is still ok, his been eating and poohing well so hopefully the fish has passed thru all ok. will keep you posted if there is any change..... His def back to his old self lol but his getting the ump with me at mo, as im building him a waterfull and he realy dont like my drill lol. he jumps on my head and trys biting the drill.....


that is good news mate, I am not supriesed he does not like the drill, igunaa hearing is quite sensitive.


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## nicnet

Supern3 said:


> who says they are NOT MEANT to eat fish.
> 
> vet has already confirmed that they eat things in the wild opportunistically,
> 
> the reason people say THEY ARE vegetarians, and they are MEANT to eat so and so etc, is because through trial and error, it has been confirmed that the preferential diet has been vegetation.
> 
> 
> I wouldnt worry about the comments from the muppets who want nothing but to try and make you feel bad.
> Your VET is the one who you should listen to.
> 
> I dont care about putting it out there, but if anyone has a problem, don't clog up this thread, pm me.
> 
> Nick



Just like dogs are supposed to eat meat, alas they chew on grass when they like.

I think the best we can do it feed them 'predominant diet' and not venture into things they may or may not eat in the wild.

Hey maybe the iggy was craving something in his diet and instinctivly knew that fish would sort it. Again the same as how a dog will eat grass to sort out an upset stomache.

Or he was just peeved at the fish in his viv area and not in its pool. Territorial behaviour since he smacked it around for a bit first. Killing it before eating also shows that he 'knew' how to eat the fish.


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## Salazare Slytherin

nicnet said:


> Just like dogs are supposed to eat meat, alas they chew on grass when they like.
> 
> I think the best we can do it feed them 'predominant diet' and not venture into things they may or may not eat in the wild.
> 
> Hey maybe the iggy was craving something in his diet and instinctivly knew that fish would sort it. Again the same as how a dog will eat grass to sort out an upset stomache.
> 
> Or he was just peeved at the fish in his viv area and not in its pool. Territorial behaviour since he smacked it around for a bit first. Killing it before eating also shows that he 'knew' how to eat the fish.


It might have been, but I very much doubt it, for one thing, an iguana, that has never ate a fish in the past before? 
How exacly would it know what it wanted, if it was craving something why would it be craving when it is potentially fed a correct diet and supplemented to those needs? 
So how would it know a fish would sort a craving, if it had never had it before? 

The myth that iguanas know what is good for them is untrue, (well partly) 

Iguanas in the wild do know what is good for them, due to trial and error, allow me to explain. If I read Melissa Kaplans work correct and other sources, thousands of generations of iguanas ate plant matter, and passed on genes which will have contributed to the survival of there enviroments. 
Other area iguanas, ate the wrong foods and died? 
It is as simple as that. 
The animals that ate animal *Protein *bred a few times and that was it. 
There was no effect on producing young (as we see the today) 
so what happned to the protein eating ones? that is a good question. 

Protein is not availible all year around. 
So they again died. those that would have survived would have been too weak to fight off any of the stronger and bigger lizards as they expanded there territories, and were killed, the weak die and the strong live, 

Lizards that were succesful, chose more safe vegetation, plants, flowers etc etc leafs and again passed on genes through breeding. 

Which brings us to a conclusion, iguanas are herbivores, they are a herbivore because they can be seen eating vegetation and plants and flowers at every single point of the year, and in the different seasons. (although I cannot explain the past for tortoises hybernating...
That is what a herbivore is, if they were an omnivore, eating both protein and plant matter, they would quickly become a victim of nature, because they are not designed to go through periods of eating one minute proteing and another vegetation.

They eat them all year around or can be seen too. 
of course there might be the odd one off now and again that does fall victim to something they should not have ate, but that is genuinely the belly getting the better of an iguana. 

Omnivores act and eat differently and hybernate I beleive in the winter months when food is scarce because they cannot survive. 
Iguanas do not hybernate. they do however slow down, and as a resuly so does there metabolism because the envoroment will not permit them to eat as much as they can in the sprin and summer months. 
So they eat and scrounge whatever they can at this time, and again, the weaker the iguana, the less chance it has of survival. but they can still be seen eating what ever flowers and plants are availible at this time, in smaller quantities, in the few hours they may have to quickly snack something up and bask in the warm temperature, which might be midday.

The reason I said partly is because iguanas are oppurtunist feeders and it is not unherd of for them, to grab something when an oppurtunity arises, the wild is a hard life, when we are told to keep such and such a plant away from them it is a good reason. 
I have herd of them eating bikini tops just because the colour attracted them (So where is the craving there) lol?

So too summarise, iguanas eat what is in there enviroment at the time, and they learn from it at the cost of probibly thousands of other iguana lives, genes and healthy babies survive and follow what the parents had eaten, merely adapting to there enviroment, other areas were not so fortunate.
An iguana, will most certainly not have had a craven for a goldfish, simply because they do not have access to them all year around lol.


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## nicnet

Gezzzzzzus Mr S. Its 3am. You want me to READ all that? pmsl.


blast it you made me read it anyway.

I see your point on that one. 

I know, maybe the fish was identified wrongly, it was a leaffish?

lol sorry, not funny i know. Just been reading the 'idiots in shops' thread


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## Salazare Slytherin

nicnet said:


> Gezzzzzzus Mr S. Its 3am. You want me to READ all that? pmsl.


 
yes:no1: its early compared to the other time we went to bed the other night lmao


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## nicnet

Salazare Slytherin said:


> yes:no1: its early compared to the other time we went to bed the other night lmao



:gasp: you weren't supposed to tell anyone that.


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## Salazare Slytherin

nicnet said:


> Gezzzzzzus Mr S. Its 3am. You want me to READ all that? pmsl.
> 
> 
> blast it you made me read it anyway.
> 
> I see your point on that one.
> 
> I know, maybe the fish was identified wrongly, *it was a leaffish?*
> 
> lol sorry, not funny i know. Just been reading the 'idiots in shops' thread


LMFAO:lol2:



nicnet said:


> :gasp: you weren't supposed to tell anyone that.


:blush: ..................oooops


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## Salazare Slytherin

you know I have just googled the leaf fish, and it is actually a real fish, well I didnt know that.:lol2:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...a=X&ei=rdPbTeO0MsKw8gOCq8D5Dw&ved=0CEsQ9QEwAg


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## Biggys

Salazare Slytherin said:


> you know I have just googled the leaf fish, and it is actually a real fish, well I didnt know that.:lol2:


they are awesome Fish, and have insane eating habits, they have to eat their own body weight in live fish a day to thrive :gasp:

Would love to do a tank, but couldn't afford the feeding bills :lol2:


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## mahender

Biggys said:


> they are awesome Fish, and have insane eating habits, they have to eat their own body weight in live fish a day to thrive :gasp:
> 
> Would love to do a tank, but couldn't afford the feeding bills :lol2:



why dont you put an iguana in there then post on here when it gets eaten ha ha.


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## Biggys

mahender said:


> why dont you put an iguana in there then post on here when it gets eaten ha ha.


LMFAO :lol:


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## nicnet

Biggys said:


> they are awesome Fish, and have insane eating habits, they have to eat their own body weight in live fish a day to thrive :gasp:
> 
> Would love to do a tank, but couldn't afford the feeding bills :lol2:



lol thats a bit of a myth by the way. We've had one on fish food for years. Sometimes he gets frozen bloodworm but other than that, pond pellets for everyone.

Hey Mr S. Made you look :lol2:


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## Salazare Slytherin

nicnet said:


> lol thats a bit of a myth by the way. We've had one on fish food for years. Sometimes he gets frozen bloodworm but other than that, pond pellets for everyone.
> 
> Hey Mr S. Made you look :lol2:


:devil:


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## waterdragon555

they are vegies :2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman

I think it's quite clear from this thread that Iguanas deserve more concern than fish :bash:

I'd like to see the course this thread would take if someone was feeding an Iguana to some carnivorous fish, I suppose it would be ok if we stuck the totally subjective label of "feeder lizard" on it's tank beforehand. My god.


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## Morgan Freeman

Sorry for the bump, was linked to in another thread, didn't realise it was old.


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