# bearded dragon likely has fatty liver disease...Please HELP



## kylepender (May 24, 2014)

Hi

So my bearded is a male (not 100% but 2 vets think he likely is) around 14-15 months old, 18" long and 480g. Physically he looks fine...looks smaller than my friends adults beardies but hes not a full adult yet?

Anyway hes been very lethargic for about 5 months and drastically reduced his insect intake (crickets and locusts were his staple with morioworms as a treat but he now refuses to eat anything but locusts and the occasional dubia roach). most of the time he just lies about not doing much and never goes to bask, just stays wherever hes woke up. I pick him up every morning and move him to the basking area otherwise he wouldnt bother heating himself up! First time i took him to the vet about 4 months ago he thought he could have been brumating but i wasnt convinced cause at that time he was younger than 1 year old which i was thinking was the youngest age this would occur. He also hasnt shed this whole time either, only a wee bit of his face and 2 front feet. so he thought it could be a parasite so treated him accordingly (put something on his back). he didnt show much difference initially...about 2 weeks after this however he perked up for about a week but just went back to his old ways.

I have had him since he was 12 weeks old and have had a nightmare tryna get him to eat veggies...he basically has NEVER eaten them. Ive tried everything but nothing worked. I made sure to gut load all live food before feeding hoping this would give him some nutrition at least. I raised this issue with the 1st vet who said he should started eating veggies when hes older and didnt seem to think it was that big a deal (He would have been about 11 months at this point).

Last week i went to a different vet cause the other one didn't know the cause and recommended i see a more specialized vet. The current vet thinks he has fatty liver disease (says hes about 80% sure that's what it is)  because of his high protein diet (basically only eaten live food and no veggies). He said he has a good weight, wide tail base and large enough fat deposits on his side. He said he cant be 100% sure unless he takes a sample of the liver to test it, apparently fatty liver wont always show up in blood tests and radiography. Since this is an operation he said it would cost around £250 uk ($425 us) which i would pay if necessary. He said I really need to get him on veggies asap and almost entirely cut the insect out his diet. He says i need to essentially force feed him veggies since he refuses to even acknowledge veggies as food...and since hes got decent fat reserves hes unlikely to bother eating them out of hunger anytime soon. 

He also gave me 3 months supply of three medications which i am to give him daily; soloxine, lactulose (3.5g/5ml solution) and methionine. Oh and vet says the viv set up is good, fairly new 12.0 uv light full length of viv and thermostat to regulate temps.

So im asking whether anyone who knows about this condition agrees with my vet? To anyone who has had this issue, how did it go? any advice? how long does it take to reduce the fat in the liver (my vet says it can take a long time)? Also as far as force feeding him veggies, is this ok? I mean he doesnt put up much of a fuss (gets a bit irritated after a while and tries to walk away), but i really dont wonna have to force feed him for the rest of his life! So to anymore who has had issues feeding adult beardies veggies, any advice? watched all the YouTube videos and just cant get him to do it!

If you got to the end of this, thanks a lot and any advice would be much appreciated!

Kyle


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

This is a tricky one. I dont know how I would feel about the diagnosis without sufficient testing. Is there another reptile specialist nearby where you could get a second opinion? I think it is very difficult to convert a beardie to veggies when they have never taken them. I would find it difficult to believe that a young beardie would have fatty liver disease.


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## kylepender (May 24, 2014)

the vet did say its unusual to see fatty liver disease in such a young beardie but he has seen it in the past....because its gone on for so long he thinks its a possibility..?

He did say he could do blood tests but he said these are unreliable (doesnt indicate all issues?). I dunno whether to just go along with the medicine for 3 months and keep feeding him the veg and see what happens?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

I feel for you, It is a real worry! 

I think that FLD is effecting far more captive reptiles than we know about! I also feel that it is perpetuated by poor hydration, overly fat and unvaried diets, limited chance to exercise as the wild animal is designed to and the over provision of synthetic supplements(the problem is no one can tell us how much is required per gram of body weight and per species and how much is too much, it is a real dark art).

I can be honest however and state that we are starting to see it more and more and I for one have had quite a few conversations with Exotic and Zoo vets about this very subject and the feeling at the moment is that it is caused by the things above.

The fact that reptiles hide disease so well and do not sit and whimper means that the majority of the cases go un-diagnosed, so we have no clue of the actual number.

I would seek as much medical advice and tests as possible, an exotics vet should be able to see this on a scan and in some cases by X-ray. 

Then time will tell I'm afraid.

the best of luck!

John,


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

I agree with John scans and x-rays should show something. I would be wary of any treatment unless these steps have been done first.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

I would recommend finding a new exotic vet who specializes in reptiles first, and not using the treatments given to you by this vet until after that second opinion is done. Thats an unusual diagnosis given that its a year old male dragon, especially if he says its caused by an all insect diet (untrue). There may be more to it of course, but blood work and radiography would be a first order of business in this case to rule out other issues and see the state of the animal in general (dehydration, thyroid function, etc). Hepatic lipidosis will often show elevated AST, and unusual bile acids, among other inconsistencies. While that may not be definitive, it would at least give reason to suggest that the further biopsy is actually required. 

Did he give any fluid therapy? You didnt mention it, and it would be fairly remiss of the vet to give lactulose without it, especially if they felt there was a liver issue. Always fluid therapy with liver problems.


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Isnt lactulose generally given for constipation and impaction problems?


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## kylepender (May 24, 2014)

Yeah I'm gonna go to another vet, there's a vet in the same practice with more experience so I'll talk to him first. What do you mean by water treatment? Nothing was discussed about water intake. My beardie never drinks from his water bowl. I spray him everyday and bathe him around 3 times a week for 15-20 mins each time but he doesn't really take water in through his mouth...I drop the water on his nose while bathing but it's rare that he licks the drops. Will this be adequate water intake?


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

All the water it takes in will be through its mouth, either by drinking or by eating. Soaking is good for getting the animal to drink, and giving it some exercise, but they do not take in any water other than that they drink. 

What I meant was, did the vet give you any fluids for your dragon to further hydrate it orally or through subcutaneous injection? With any type of liver problem, liquids are the first course of treatment. 

Its important to understand that hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver disease) is a lot like MBD (metabolic bone disorder) in that it is essentially a host of diseases that are the result of an underlying issue. Animals do not really die of hepatic lipidosis, they die of what _caused_ the hepatic lipidosis. It seems like your vet thought hypothyroidism might be the cause here (prescribing soloxine), but again, that seems a pretty big jump given only a physical examination. 

Generally, lactulose is given for impactions as it draws moisture out of the lining of the intestine, softening the stool and easing movement. However, with severe cases of liver damage you can have high levels of ammonia (which the liver would normally remove), which lactulose can help protect against. 

It does beg the question of what your enclosure is like though. I dont mean that you are a bad keeper or anything, merely that there may be something off that has exacerbated the issue. What temperatures are you getting for your basking area and cool side? How large is your cage and what lighting do you have? You mentioned a 12% fluorescent tube light, which I take it is an Arcadia light, but what other lighting do you have? Where did you get the animal? Do you know anyone who has an animal from the same breeder? Have they had any problems?


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## kylepender (May 24, 2014)

The solocine are .2mg tablets which says 1 should be crushed and mixed with 5ml of water and to give .25ml orally daily 

The methionine are 250MG tablets which says 1 should be crushed and mixed with 5ml of water and to give .5ml orally daily 

Viv is 3ftx1ftx1ft but I'm getting a 4x2x2 from a friend in 2 or 3 weeks. Yeah light is an Arcadia desert one full length. I've got a brand new 46" one with reflector for his new Viv. Basking spot had a 60watt bulb hooked up to a dinner thermostat. I use the thermostat to keep cold end around 86 and this makes the basking spot around 105. I use a digital thermometer. There's no heating on at night but the temp doesn't go below 64ish. I checked this morning and it was 73 just before heat lamp turned on...I was concerned he was getting too cold at night (I live in Scotland which isn't the hottest place) but think those temps are ok? 

Bought him from a pet store which had a reptile section. Was recommended by someone who bought a beardie from there but don't know whether they breed them themselves. He's just a normal beardie, I have no knowledge of his parents.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

kylepender said:


> The solocine are .2mg tablets which says 1 should be crushed and mixed with 5ml of water and to give .25ml orally daily
> 
> The methionine are 250MG tablets which says 1 should be crushed and mixed with 5ml of water and to give .5ml orally daily
> 
> ...


Ok, when you say its an Arcadia desert, can you please tell us if its a T5 or a T8? (If you dont remember, just measure how wide the bulb is). 

The temperatures sound good, and no I wouldnt worry about the heat at night if its only getting down around 65 F. Thats absolutely fine for them. If its lower than that then you could provide a CHE or UTH but otherwise its fine. You double check the thermostat temps with the digital thermometer right? Sometimes the thermostat probes are off, so it might not be getting as warm as you think in the basking area. 

I think your next course of action is to see the other vet, and insist on blood and xrays. Also, if at all possible bring them in a fecal sample when you go. Some microsporidia show effects almost similar to liver problems, so it can be easier with a young dragon like that to rule out the other problems first before going with a liver biopsy.


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