# Pure butter corn?



## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

I am looking into breeding corns and am starting off trying to get some butter stripe ones but i was wondering if anyone has managed to breed butters to get a pure butter coulor snake with no markings?
Have not seen one anywhere and if it hasn't been done yet, how would i go about trying to get some?

Thanks Matt


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Your best bet is probably sulphur stripe (striped butter bloodred). I doubt you'll find any for sale this year but you might find some hets so you can breed your own in future.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

toyah said:


> Your best bet is probably sulphur stripe (striped butter bloodred). I doubt you'll find any for sale this year but you might find some hets so you can breed your own in future.


So would that be a good place to start? and just breed more out of that?

I am aiming for a bloodred type but obviously butter.
I've also just seen Paradox Snow corns. How would I acheive this morph, I know it is very rare to get one.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Mattinho said:


> So would that be a good place to start? and just breed more out of that?
> 
> I am aiming for a bloodred type but obviously butter.
> I've also just seen Paradox Snow corns. How would I acheive this morph, I know it is very rare to get one.


I would probably look to get a fire stripe and cross that to a butter bloodred, to get fire het sulphur stripe, then mate those together for a 1:16 chance of a sulphur stripe.

Paradox snow can't be bred for, it's a freak accident. Your best bet on getting one would be to breed at least 5000 snow corns every year and hope one year you get lucky, but even then that's no guarantee


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

toyah said:


> Paradox snow can't be bred for, it's a freak accident. Your best bet on getting one would be to breed at least 5000 snow corns every year and hope one year you get lucky, but even then that's no guarantee


Lol didn't realise they were that rare. do you know of anyone on here that has one?


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Mattinho said:


> Lol didn't realise they were that rare. do you know of anyone on here that has one?


Not off the top of my head - but you couldn't breed more of them even if you manage to find a pair of them as the colouration is a fluke, not an inherited genetic pattern.

A friend of mine has a paradox coral albino boa, which is very pretty.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

toyah said:


> Not off the top of my head - but you couldn't breed more of them even if you manage to find a pair of them as the colouration is a fluke, not an inherited genetic pattern.
> 
> A friend of mine has a paradox coral albino boa, which is very pretty.


Am going to have to search around because I really want one lol


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## adsclarke (Feb 15, 2009)

I would certainly agree that Sulphur Stripe is likely to be a good bet.

This is actually a project of mine.

I'd breed butter stripe to fire stripe and then breed back together the siblings. 

Cheers
Ads


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

That said, a butter Vanishing Stripe (i.e. one whose stripes fade out towards the rear of the body) could go quite a long way towards being a solid single-colour butter-yellow snake too. You'd be looking for an Amel Stripe parent (preferably het caramel!) whose stripes break up or vanish completely at the back of the body, and a butter that isn't too "contrasty" - the saddles should be a similar colour and tone to the background colour.

Breed them together for Amels het Caramel Stripe (or butters het stripe if you find a good vanishing-stripe Amel het Butter) - keep the ones with the least contrast between background and saddle colour - then breed them together for a 1:16 chance of Butter Stripes.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ok thanks for the comments will look into getting the right snakes for the job lol

Last question.... Has a plain butter corn snake been bred yet? I haven't seen any before?

Thanks


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

What do you mean when you say "Plain butter" - solid yellow with no markings, or genetically homozygous amel, homozygous caramel ?

There are *lots* of the latter - but I don't know how many people have done the former.

Oh, another route to solid yellow red-eyed snakes might be Amel + Caramel + Lava


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> What do you mean when you say "Plain butter" - solid yellow with no markings, or genetically homozygous amel, homozygous caramel ?
> 
> There are *lots* of the latter - but I don't know how many people have done the former.
> 
> Oh, another route to solid yellow red-eyed snakes might be Amel + Caramel + Lava


Well I mean like a Bloodred corn, with no markings and solid colour except it woulb be yellow not red lol.

That make sense?

thanks


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Ahh, so a pure *yellow *snake. 

"Pure butter" would imply that it's a butter cornsnake (genetically amel caramel) with quite a lot of visual butter ancestors 

I am betting a Topaz Stripe (if you wanted a dark-eyed yellow - this is Lava Caramel and Stripe) would make for a nice solid soft waxy yellow snake - and I don't know if anyone's done this one yet. I know there are Topaz Motleys out there, but you're more likely to see markings on them.

In any case, you're really looking at generations of a selective breeding project if you want a solid, unpatterned yellow snake, same as there were generations of selective breeding that went into the unpatterned solid red snakes.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Ahh, so a pure *yellow *snake.
> 
> "Pure butter" would imply that it's a butter cornsnake (genetically amel caramel) with quite a lot of visual butter ancestors
> 
> ...


Thats cool I was looking to be in it for the long run lol thats why I want to do that. Also want to try and do a butter or yellow pied if at all possible.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

There's no true pied gene in corns at this point.

Nearest you'll get is the pied-sided Bloodreds; I don't know how well that would carry over to a pied-sided sulfur (Butter blood).


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> There's no true pied gene in corns at this point.
> 
> Nearest you'll get is the pied-sided Bloodreds; I don't know how well that would carry over to a pied-sided sulfur (Butter blood).



Yeah they are the ones i've seen and if it is possible it could be quite a nice snake =] 

I've only seen them on the Ians viv website ... could you shed any light on what they are? blood with ??? lol cant find anywhere that tells you what to do to get one?

Thanks =]


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

There's nothing that tells you for SURE what they are because the genetic trait "pied-sided" has not been completely proven yet. It may be a "modifier" of Bloodred and can only exist in bloodreds. It may be a separate recessive gene that can crop up in any morph.

It hasn't been thoroughly proven out yet, and I don't think it's actually been tested to see if it can be recovered from hets.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

So do you think I should try and copy the gene from a blood Pied Sided and then, if i can prove it can be passed maybe try breeding the one with it with topaz and butter striped and see where tha goes?
Is the pied gene found in royals passed down or does that just happen sometimes? because if it is maybe there is a big chance of the same in corns?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If you bred a Pied-Sided Blood to a Butter, then bred the offspring together, it would be a very interesting experiment... you might well find out that hey, pied-sided CAN exist without Bloodred. You might find out that only bloodreds can be pied-sided.

The Piebald gene in royals is a simple recessive, and isn't "attached" to any other genes - but just because it produces a similar visual effect (white patching) doesn't mean it works the same way


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> The Piebald gene in royals is a simple recessive, and isn't "attached" to any other genes - but just because it produces a similar visual effect (white patching) doesn't mean it works the same way


lol was worth a try :hmm:... i may have to try and breed a pied sided blood with a butter stripe or maybe a Reverse Okeetee? as it has some red in it ... maybe start there and if that works move onto the butter or topaz?

This might be a bit of a dumb question but i'm still getting the hang of this genetics stuff but if the pied gene was recessive then could you change the pied colour or is it always white?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

It won't make any difference what *colour* you try to breed the pied-sided into if it's attached to the bloodred/Diffuse *pattern*. This is why I don't like calling the pattern trait "bloodred" - it's unnecessarily confusing. Basically, Pied-Sided might be attached to the pattern trait "Diffuse" (which was first discovered as the cause of the patterning of Bloodred corns) - in which case, you wouldn't be able to produce a non-Diffuse pied-sided (regardless of colour).

Yes, trying Pied-Sided Blood to Butter Stripe would be an awesome (if expensive!) project 

I wouldn't breed a Reverse Okeetee to a Diffuse of any type - because that's a step backwards. The point of a Diffuse is that you lose the saddles and saddle borders; a Reverse Okeetee has been selectively bred for the widest saddle borders possible.

As for the Pied parts always being white, it's not because the white patches are "painted white" - it's because the "paint" (the different pigments that make a snake a given colour) is missing in those areas completely. So although a totally different gene that gave big blotches or rings of a different colour might theoretically exist, the gene usually known as "piebald" causes the *absence* of colour resulting in white spots.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> It won't make any difference what *colour* you try to breed the pied-sided into if it's attached to the bloodred/Diffuse *pattern*. This is why I don't like calling the pattern trait "bloodred" - it's unnecessarily confusing. Basically, Pied-Sided might be attached to the pattern trait "Diffuse" (which was first discovered as the cause of the patterning of Bloodred corns) - in which case, you wouldn't be able to produce a non-Diffuse pied-sided (regardless of colour).
> 
> Yes, trying Pied-Sided Blood to Butter Stripe would be an awesome (if expensive!) project
> 
> ...


Thats cool i was looking to breed the butter stripes anyway =]
could make a side project withthe butter pied sides.

I didn't realise that was what the piebald actually was =P 
well if i manage to get a solid yellow snake would i just keep breeding with the bloodred corn or do it once and breed the offspring with more yellows or butter stripes?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mattinho said:


> I didn't realise that was what the piebald actually was =P


Yeah, it's lack of pigment rather than "white" pigment. 



> well if i manage to get a solid yellow snake would i just keep breeding with the bloodred corn or do it once and breed the offspring with more yellows or butter stripes?


I don't know what YOU would do with it - depends on why you want to produce it. I will say that outcrossing your selectively bred patternless yellow snake to something that isn't a selectively bred patternless line will "undo" all the work you've done in producing that patternless line in the offspring.

I know what I'd do with it once I had a line of solid yellow snakes (whether they be topaz vanishing stripes, sulfur stripes or something else) - I'd try separating it into two different lines, one where I'm trying to breed solid deep golden yellow snakes and one where I'm trying to breed solid light lemon yellow snakes.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Thats fair enough, just go for different shades may make another side project if i can get hold of a couple of pied corns. would the solid "yellow" corn be a sought after snake or is it just me that loves the idea of it? lol as i would like to get into breeding loads of new morphs or some of the rare types,

Thanks


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If they're attractive enough people will buy them - especially if they're not ridiculously high prices once you start releasing multiples.

One thing you DO need to be aware of is that yellow is one of the last colours to develop in a corn snake - butters hatch out looking a bit like snows - and so you're looking at keeping your hatchlings for six months to a year to see which ones "make the grade" for being the nearest to "patternless yellow" you can get.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

ok well i guess i'll have to build me a rub rack or something lol.
would that be the same with butter stripes?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If your only goal is to make animals that are genetically homozygous amel, homozygous caramel, homozygous stripe (Butter Stripe) then no, you don't need to keep every possible baby to find out which are the best of the best for future breeding stock.

But if you plan to selectively breed for the colour/depth/shade/richness/solidity of the yellow colouration, you will need to keep more babies back simply because the yellow takes so long to develop. For example, if I had three butter stripe babies, there's no good way to tell at hatching which one of them is going to be THE BEST solid rich yellow as an adult - because they'll all be sort of yellow with sort of brownish-yellow stripes.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> If your only goal is to make animals that are genetically homozygous amel, homozygous caramel, homozygous stripe (Butter Stripe) then no, you don't need to keep every possible baby to find out which are the best of the best for future breeding stock.
> 
> But if you plan to selectively breed for the colour/depth/shade/richness/solidity of the yellow colouration, you will need to keep more babies back simply because the yellow takes so long to develop. For example, if I had three butter stripe babies, there's no good way to tell at hatching which one of them is going to be THE BEST solid rich yellow as an adult - because they'll all be sort of yellow with sort of brownish-yellow stripes.


Well I think what i'll do is have the pair breeding for the butter stripes and then buy a seperat pair and selectivly breed them for the solid yellow. 

How is the best way to go about the selective breeding, do i need two pairs and then breed their offspring off of each other? surely you cant breed the babies from the same parents?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Mattinho said:


> Well I think what i'll do is have the pair breeding for the butter stripes and then buy a seperat pair and selectivly breed them for the solid yellow.


Fair enough 



> How is the best way to go about the selective breeding, do i need two pairs and then breed their offspring off of each other? surely you cant breed the babies from the same parents?


If you're selectively breeding for traits you almost *have* to work with linebreeding and inbreeding - otherwise you will not "fix" the traits that you're trying to get because you're adding in new blood that might use a different route to get to the same visual look.

Just because you get the same visual appearance doesn't mean they used the exact same genes to get there - just like getting to the supermarket by one route from your house doesn't mean that you'd always use that route to get to the same supermarket from your house.

If I was looking to selectively breed I absolutely *would* be using sibling pairings - but I would be very carefully selecting for the healthiest, best growing babies from each individual clutch and NEVER breeding from anything that's fiddly to feed, slow to start or otherwise of less than perfect health.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> If I was looking to selectively breed I absolutely *would* be using sibling pairings - but I would be very carefully selecting for the healthiest, best growing babies from each individual clutch and NEVER breeding from anything that's fiddly to feed, slow to start or otherwise of less than perfect health.


Ok but can inbreeding not cause deformed litters or is that why you'd choose the best and healthiest?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If you select deformed parents to breed from, whether they're related or not, you're likely to get deformed offspring.

If you select parents who carry the genes to be deformed, whether they're related or not, you're likely to get deformed offspring.

The key is to choose:

Healthy babies who feed and grow well from the get-go.

Then, when you start breeding, if you EVER get any deformed hatchlings that cannot be traced to incubation issues, stop breeding the parents who produced them - to each other AND to anything else.

You can get deformities from unrelated and genetically healthy pairings if incubation goes wrong, for example; and my family tree is proof that unrelated pairings can produce defective offspring as well. My dad is colourblind; this means he carries the trait for colourblindness on his X chromosome (Y chromosomes cannot carry colourblindness). My mum - who does not share a common ancestor with my dad for at least sixteen generations - is not colour blind. I am not colour blind. But my younger brother is colourblind - he also carries the trait for colourblindness on his X chromosome.

This means that, unbeknownst to my mum, she was "het for" colourblindness - and passed on colourblindness to my brother. My dad being colour blind means that I am also "het for" colourblindness.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ah I see.... well I guess all I need now are the snakes lol.

so just to make sure i've got this right .... to get a pure or solid yellow i should look at breeding striped topaz with each other and in turn breed the healthiest offspring whos stripes are the most faded together and just keep on with that?

Thanks so much for your help =]


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Striped Topaz, Striped Butter, Striped Sulfur - it depends on how much overlap you want between your projects, and whether having dark eyes or red eyes matters to you.


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't really mind what colour the eyes are but i guess having a choice would be cool.

What morphs would produce both the red eyes and the black?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

There is no morph that'll produce BOTH eye colours.

Basically, Amel (which is what turns Caramel into Butter) ALWAYS gives red eyes.
Lava (which is what turns Caramel into Topaz) has black eyes.

If you wanted a breeding group that did both eye colours, I would suggest Topaz Stripes het Amel - that'd produce Topaz Stripe (with black eyes) and Lava-Butter Stripe (with red eyes).


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## Mattinho (Apr 28, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> There is no morph that'll produce BOTH eye colours.
> 
> Basically, Amel (which is what turns Caramel into Butter) ALWAYS gives red eyes.
> Lava (which is what turns Caramel into Topaz) has black eyes.
> ...


lol didn't mean one snake that did both ... meant two different snakes of which one had red eyes and the other has black. =]

And i will look into getting a few to try and get the different results with the shade of the yellow and the eyes =]


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