# Skinny dart frog...



## Jazzy B Bunny

One of my darts that I got at PRAS looks rather thin and boney on top, but his belly is fat.. Not a bloated fat. It's like he's carrying all his weight under him? He is the smaller of the 2 and is eating as I watched him yesterday. He appears strong, so only concerned about his boney appearance. These pics don't show it too well. He hasn't grown much in 2 months.
I always try and feed him directly, as the other is a greedy guts. Maybe I'm just being paranoid again?!


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## Cornish-J

no i dont think you're being paranoid, he looks really really thin.

how often are you feeding?


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Every other day. They never eat all the flies I put in, so if anything I'm feeding too much.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

He's actively hunting etc. the other one is doing fine. What can I do? Just up their food?
ETA flies dusted with calcium plus at every feed and flies bought up on repashy superfly.


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## Cornish-J

hmm sounds fine to me - i'm a bit stumped.

Have to wait for one of the more experienced guys to have a look.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

They are my first dart frogs, but as far as I'm aware I'm doing everything correctly.


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## COLD BLOODED THINGS RULE

have you seen him eating maybe hes not an as good hunter as your others maybe try small crickets?


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## REDDEV1L

Looking at those pics, from a non-dart point of view, the word that springs to mind is WORMS !
As you know, im not into darts in any way shape or form but skinny looking with a fat stomach, to me, signals malnutrition (think african kids) but as you're feeding good grub to the flies and dusting every feed, i'd then look at either getting a fecal done, or treating with Panacur.

Of course, I may be well off the mark, especially seing as they're CB, but thats my thoughts :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Yes I've seen him eating. He doesn't eat as fast as the other though. Not having crickets in my house ever again lol. How would I treat a teeny frog with panacur? Yes they are CB.


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## Ron Magpie

REDDEV1L said:


> Looking at those pics, from a non-dart point of view, the word that springs to mind is WORMS !
> As you know, im not into darts in any way shape or form but skinny looking with a fat stomach, to me, signals malnutrition (think african kids) but as you're feeding good grub to the flies and dusting every feed, i'd then look at either getting a fecal done, or treating with Panacur.
> 
> Of course, I may be well off the mark, especially seing as they're CB, but thats my thoughts :Na_Na_Na_Na:





Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Yes I've seen him eating. He doesn't eat as fast as the other though. Not having crickets in my house ever again lol. How would I treat a teeny frog with panacur? Yes they are CB.


If it were 'just any frogs' I'd think the same- but I'd really be surprised, in this case. Jazzy, PM Wolfenrook (Ade) about Panacur- he has some real experience in using it, and probably some good advice on whether it's a good idea.


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## terryTHEfrog

pls keep the thread updated mate with any news


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Will do! Why does this sort of thing only seem to happen this time of year when it's awkward to get hold of stuff!


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## soundstounite

Sarah,the only way to be sure it is worms is to get a fecal done,panacur in the right strength ie stuff that dartfrog sells specifically for darts might just help,but it is a stab in the dark method of treatment. I'm not quite sure it is this though(how could one be without a diagnosis) ,does the larger frog push the smaller one about at feeding have you seen anything else that would or could lead you to believe the bigger frog might be pushing/stressing the smaller ? It is always possible you could have 2 girls,they might know it already but we don't.
Beyond that you have told us you are feeding Ff and dusting,what else are you feeding mate? Are you aware that the ff maggots contain more fat than the flies do,these might be an option to put some weight on the little guy.I/we would probably be feeding springs at this stage aswell almost daily.Tincs are really tricky to get to full size and they have one hell of an apetite, we almost pour food down ours,they don't ever seem to get fat as kids as they burn it off growing....i think that's whats happening any way.
Sarah how often do you mist,because there are flies left over it doesn't necessarily mean that the frogs have finished eating just some of the flies are stationary and haven't been spotted by the frogs,a quick mist gets them moving,the other thing i would try out is blowing the food all over the viv,it means one frog can't hog the food and as a side note also gives the frogs a good workout.
So although it ain't easy especially now:bash: get a fecal done if possible to be sure,maybe watch the hell out of them and if you deem fit move the bigger frog for a while to let the little guy get some grub,i'd work backwards almost as stressing the little one by moving might not help matters,providing nothing is actually wrong with him.But my first call would be plenty of springtails and some ff maggots and watch like a hawk.Tincs are funny frogs,they seem prone to looking abit thin seem to stress quite easily ,both of which might just be caused by a bigger frog bulling the other,although it is not always easy to see this happening
good luck kiddo
best

Stu


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## terryTHEfrog

good bit of Info


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Thanks. I mist twice a day. Will get some spring tails when I can. Will continue to monitor them. I haven't seen any active bullying. I feel like I've neglected him


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## terryTHEfrog

dont blame yourself mate even with the best intentions not everything lives thats life.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

When I bought them, I asked what to feed etc and I followed the advice. I will feed daily from now on. Hopefully he will be ok. He's still eating so that's good.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

I'm a rubbish froggy mum


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## frogman955

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I'm a rubbish froggy mum


I've only one thing to say to that Jazzy.
Bollox


Mike


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## Wolfenrook

Replied Jazzy. To add to my reply, in my experience feeding more wont help, mine were stuffing themselves stupid back when I started out and lost 2 to worms. They still lost weight very very rapidly, and died. The rest is in my pm, and no it isn't your fault for one second.

I'm not going to say more, as to be blunt I get tired of the same old arguments with the same people.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie

Wolfenrook said:


> Replied Jazzy. To add to my reply, in my experience feeding more wont help, mine were stuffing themselves stupid back when I started out and lost 2 to worms. They still lost weight very very rapidly, and died. The rest is in my pm, and no it isn't your fault for one second.
> 
> I'm not going to say more, as to be blunt I get tired of the same old arguments with the same people.
> 
> Ade


Without geting into arguements, though, you've said something useful, in that none of us can get complacent about worms- which shouldn't cause a problem with anyone, I'd have thought.


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## fatlad69

Sounds like you are doing everything right and I know Ade will have given good advice. I had the same problem with oyapoks many years back, they tend to be a little harder to keep than most tincs. I fed mine with wax worms and fruit flies for a few weeks and they soon got back to a good weight. Once back up to weight I stopped the wax worms ( apart from the odd treat a couple of times a month) and continued daily feeding of fruit flies, springtails and wood lice and never had another problem with them. 

Was the frog that skinny when you got it?

Adam


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Well, he's still alive and climbing around today. So I wouldn't class him as weak just yet. Will feed again today, but unfortunately can't do anything else until the new year. 
Question how do you get fruit fly maggots out without millions of flies escaping? I have a new culture on the go, but won't be producing maggots for another few days at least. (I always have 3 cultures just to add)


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## colinm

If you tip the flies into anew culture pot ,and then you will be left with the medium and maggots in the original pot.


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## Wolfenrook

Ron Magpie said:


> Without geting into arguements, though, you've said something useful, in that none of us can get complacent about worms- which shouldn't cause a problem with anyone, I'd have thought.


Too right Ron. Sonner or later we are all going to get a frog that starts showing signs of having worms. We just have to learn from this, and make sure to have some Panacur to hand as a form of 'frog first aid'.

With darts especially, once they start showing physical signs that can be seen with the naked eye, the clock has started ticking big time. Been able to act quickly is so very important, even then there's no guarantee you have time to even complete a course.

Ade


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## soundstounite

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Well, he's still alive and climbing around today. So I wouldn't class him as weak just yet. Will feed again today, but unfortunately can't do anything else until the new year.
> Question how do you get fruit fly maggots out without millions of flies escaping? I have a new culture on the go, but won't be producing maggots for another few days at least. (I always have 3 cultures just to add)


First up kiddo,no way do i think your a bad keeper,if I implied that yesterday apologies,it was not my intention,in any way shape or form.Tincs can be finiky tis all,bullying might be very hard to spot,but might just be easier if your looking for it.Beyond that i don't even know if it is that,i'm just aware it happens with tincs all these bloody kids teach me this stuff:2thumb:
Ff maggots:two ways you can either harvest what's left from an old culture after removing the flies (horrible),or remove the flies to a new culture and then seal the top of the culture with maggots in,the maggots will climb the culture side as the O2 runs out and you can harvest some then pop the vented lid back on and the culture can continue.
Ade if the argument comment is directed at me don't worry mate,I've never come here to argue with folks life is simply too damn short,I suffer from a big dose of can't be arsed in this department,my only concern is that the lass's little frog is ok. If it wasn't then scrub the above,you can have an apology too:2thumb: More grub might just give her a larger window to work in to ,the trouble is these things always happen,when access to a vet or treatment is not easy,naturally as already stated,it might not be worms might be stress,might be a combination of both,the two seem to go hand in hand:ie stress a frog and the parasites up their game.It matters not to me about whom is right or wrong,just little froggy gets well.

Ron no arguments here either:lol2:,simply put i don't think we know how much worms are a problem to us,or even which type of worms do our frogs the most damage and cause the deaths already spoken about. I have little knowledge about how they are transferred to a viv(there seem to be many complex avenues for transferral to a "live" viv) ,or even if some might be beneficial in smaller numbers.It is difficult to get my head around this last bit. the two foremost american phib vets seem to disagree on this,if I've understood correctly,one preferring fecals and treat what is found..the other run the fecals as a monitor ,but only treat if the frog shows some form of symptom,leastways i think that is the gist of it(they might be making judgement calls dependent on exactly what is found,of course,ie certain parasites being treated asap ) 

good luck Jazzy
Stu


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## Ron Magpie

Interesting, Stu, I guess the reasoning may be that in the wild, nearly all frogs carry worms; it's practically their 'natural state'. Not sure how I feel about that, but I can see the logic. Although I don't know their origin, I would be *very* surprised if my three Asian spiny toads weren't wild-caught; which probably means they have their own stowaways. I do notice the male tends to lose weight every now and then, to the point that I take him out and feed him waxworms and so on separately until he bulks up again- but how much of this might be down to worms and how much down to the two Big Fat Mammas hogging all the food, I don't know. When waxies and so-on are fed in a dish, I've seen them shove him aside or even stand on him, to get at the food first! :lol2:

EDIT: And, of course, since they've always lived together, the females would also be suffering, if worms were the prime problem, so I'm inclined to blame the bullying.


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## DrNick

Jazzy - it could be a heavy worm load, but it could be a bacterial infection, impaction or any number of other things. One thing is clear though, that frog does not look to be in good condition and should at least be separated for observation.

Without going over familiar ground on the worming question, it is the case as stu points out that frogs can and do live happily with gut parasites. If a frog is sent 'off kilter' for any reason that is usually when parasites become problematic. Could be 'bullying' or could be that there are things you could change husbandry wise to reduce the chances of this repeating with other frogs. Are there any experienced dart keepers in your area that you could invite round for a brew and a chat? Could be that they can spot potential issues that you haven't noticed.

Best of luck,

Nick


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## Jazzy B Bunny

As far as I'm aware there is nobody in the area. I am doing everything correctly. The other frog is thriving. I even bought my viv ready planted from Richie. I have Uv and everything. I'm not a newbie to frogs at all.


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> Interesting, Stu, I guess the reasoning may be that in the wild, nearly all frogs carry worms; it's practically their 'natural state'. Not sure how I feel about that, but I can see the logic. Although I don't know their origin, I would be *very* surprised if my three Asian spiny toads weren't wild-caught; which probably means they have their own stowaways. I do notice the male tends to lose weight every now and then, to the point that I take him out and feed him waxworms and so on separately until he bulks up again- but how much of this might be down to worms and how much down to the two Big Fat Mammas hogging all the food, I don't know. When waxies and so-on are fed in a dish, I've seen them shove him aside or even stand on him, to get at the food first! :lol2:
> 
> EDIT: And, of course, since they've always lived together, the females would also be suffering, if worms were the prime problem, so I'm inclined to blame the bullying.


Ron some reading for you,the whole thread is interesting,but permalink 37
is relevant to what we are specifically talking about.
Regular treatment for parasites? - Page 4 - Dendroboard

Yeah i hear ya mate big lasses push little fellas about, a direct parallel is that this applies to tincs.I watch alot of little tinc kids buddy and a handful of adults,there is definately the capacity in this species of dart to supress a smaller weaker frog to the point of the smaller looking awful 

Stu


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## Ron Magpie

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> As far as I'm aware there is nobody in the area. I am doing everything correctly. The other frog is thriving. I even bought my viv ready planted from Richie. I have Uv and everything. *I'm not a newbie to frogs at all.*


Darlin, nobody is suggesting that at all- you've bred some species that nobody else has! :2thumb:
People are just suggesting possibilities, 'cos they want to help.

EDIT: @Stu: Really interesting reading- given me a few things to think about!


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## Wolfenrook

Or it could be that she bought frogs from somebody who doesn't recognise that his collection has worms, and that the stress of all the changes weakened the frog, turning the load that hadn't been harmful into a problem...

Given that none of us knows for sure, it's rather out of order even implying that Sarah is doing anything wrong, so it's very important that we try very hard to avoid any possible implications of this sort. That's the one thing we do know for certain.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

And now I've found white blob looking mites in one of my cultures. Great. If these frogs die, I'm done with darts. 

Are these mites harmful to my pets? They are definatly mites. :bash:


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## fatlad69

Not usually, they are quite common and just stop your culture producing. Use some mite paper under the cultures and it usually solves the problem.

Remember Oyapoks can be one of the more tricky Tincs to keep, most likely nothing you have done wrong.

Adam


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## mantella

Ron Magpie said:


> Darlin, nobody is suggesting that at all- you've bred some species that nobody else has! :2thumb:
> People are just suggesting possibilities, 'cos they want to help.
> 
> EDIT: @Stu: Really interesting reading- given me a few things to think about!


 
Really? Such as what?


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## Wolfenrook

I've been known to feed mites to my smaller frogs and froglets, they are completely harmless to darts.

Sarah, take a deep breath. I know it seems terrible now, but you can overcome. There are some people you can trust on here who will see you right in the future if you give them the chance. Sure darts have down moment, but to be honest it happens with tree frogs given enough time too. You've just been unlucks for this to happen with your very first darts, you know my story well enough though to know that so was I, so I can very easily empathise. You ARE a good enough keeper to succeed with darts, and when you do it will make it all worth it, believe me on that point.

There's that irritating and pointless droning noise again! Has somebody accidentally dropped a cricket in here? Oh well, if anybody spots it, feel free to stamp on it...

Ade


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## soundstounite

Re iterating what's already been said Sarah,you are not at fault!! don't worry about the mites as above they wont hurt your frogs,they can just be a pain in the butt as far as cultures go,but also another alternative frog food. You haven't lost this one yet so head up kiddo.All livestock brings joy as well as sad times at some stage,I guess if we didn't give a damn then none of us would get the joys that livestock bring to us,tis why we keep them.
head up kiddo

Stu


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## Wolfenrook

See Sarah, we are all with you. I am sure that any apparent implication that you haven't done something right are purely accidental. It's so hard to say what you mean on forums at times.

Ade


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Thank you


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## DrNick

Obviously my post was not intended to cause any offense - if it did I apologize. 

If there's a back story, I don't know it. I thought I was being objective, simply pointing out that when things go wrong it makes sense to look at all possibilities, which include husbandry - especially when the keeper is new to darts - but also all of the external factors that others have suggested such as the origins of the frogs and the group dynamic. I was not having a dig at the OP by suggesting she speak to experienced hobbyists if there are any local - regardless of how experienced you are, it's amazing what useful info can come out of a quick chat.

Anyway, if these are your first darts absolutely do not give up on the basis of one mishap. It can be a tricky business dart husbandry but like so many other things it's a learning curve and we're all on it. If you persevere you will find that unexplained deaths all but vanish as you optimize viv conditions, cut down on mistakes and set out your list of trustworthy breeders to buy healthy frogs from. Best of luck,

Nick


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## Drayvan

Jazzy, it's probably nothing remotely similar being different species but I recently went through the same thing with a baby toad I have. He's now doing well so just shows that it can be sorted and is in no way your fault :2thumb: seems to be just one of those things with animals in groups :/


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## soundstounite

Sarah how's the little guy doing? 

Stu


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## MantellaMan

Anyway, as for my input into the thread I do have to agree with the majority which is the possibility of worms. But Sarah, don't let this put you off PDF's for good, you can sort it out and move past it especially with the amount of fellow keepers that are helping you on this thread


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## Jazzy B Bunny

soundstounite said:


> Sarah how's the little guy doing?
> 
> Stu


He's still alive and feeding. Will be in touch with dart frog about worming soon :2thumb: I know it might not work, but him still being alive is great


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## fatlad69

All you can do is your best. We have all lost frogs in the past and its usually nothing we have done, sometimes it's natures natural selection. 

Adam


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## bothrops

Thread cleaned to make sure it stays on track.

I have deleted the posts that have nothing to do with this thread. I have not deleted them because they were in some way breaking rules. Therefore, please feel free to repost any of the information that had been deleted in threads of your own.



:2thumb:


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Ok, wormer wise what is best? Panacur or the levacol that you drop on their backs? I assume the panacur will be less stressful for them as you dust the flies with it!


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## fatlad69

It all depends on whether your frogs would say still enough to apply to there back.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

One of them would, the other no.


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## richie.b

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Ok, wormer wise what is best? Panacur or the levacol that you drop on their backs? I assume the panacur will be less stressful for them as you dust the flies with it!



Sorry to hear about your frog Jazzy but like already been said its nothing you have done wrong unfortunatly this does happen especially with tincs usually males for some reason.
It wouldnt be problems with the person who bred them as hes been doing this for a very long time and has sold thousands over the years.
As for treating them i would use panacur and dust there food with it if the frog is still eating. I do use levacol but for bigger frogs and then i mist the frog after as its quite powerful and can send the frog into shock.
Good luck with this hope it all works out for you 

Richie


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## Jazzy B Bunny

richie.b said:


> Sorry to hear about your frog Jazzy but like already been said its nothing you have done wrong unfortunatly this does happen especially with tincs usually males for some reason.
> It wouldnt be problems with the person who bred them as hes been doing this for a very long time and has sold thousands over the years.
> As for treating them i would use panacur and dust there food with it if the frog is still eating. I do use levacol but for bigger frogs and then i mist the frog after as its quite powerful and can send the frog into shock.
> Good luck with this hope it all works out for you
> 
> Richie


Thanks. Any idea what percentage panacur to use? I want to try and get it locally rather than waiting for the post.


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## DrNick

Bare in mind that worming a sick frog could be enough to tip it over the edge - although I appreciate that the alternative (doing nothing) isn't exactly a great option in this kind of situation... 

That said, the easiest and cheapest way is to buy powdered wormer for cats from your local supermarket - make sure it contains fenbendazole and nothing else. Grind it into a fine powder and dust a few flies. The dosage is completely academic when we're talking about dusting insects for darts, there are too many variables to even estimate. This is one of the reasons it is considered to be risky - just try not to over do it... I'll reiterate again that worming a sick frog without a diagnosis is not recommended.

For this to be effective the frog MUST be in isolation (which a sick frog should be anyway), wormed weekly and then moved to a fresh container after defecating for three consecutive weeks. Otherwise it is very likely that the frog will be re-infected and the stress of the exercise will probably outweigh any possible benefit. Good luck,

Nick


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## frogman955

Instructions for Panacur from Dartfrogs web site.
*Panacur
*If you cannot locate your frogs to give them a droplet of levacol, this is the alternative. Just powder your fruit flies with panacur and your frogs get the medicine while eating. Powder your fruit flies for 3 days; take 2 days rest, and repeat the cure if necessary.

Jazzy you`ve waited this long, will another couple of days matter ?
That way you have the correct stuff and there will be no guess work.

Mike


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## fatlad69

frogman955 said:


> Instructions for Panacur from Dartfrogs web site.
> *Panacur
> *If you cannot locate your frogs to give them a droplet of levacol, this is the alternative. Just powder your fruit flies with panacur and your frogs get the medicine while eating. Powder your fruit flies for 3 days; take 2 days rest, and repeat the cure if necessary.
> 
> Jazzy you`ve waited this long, will another couple of days matter ?
> That way you have the correct stuff and there will be no guess work.
> 
> Mike


I agree with Mike, a couple more days shouldn't do any harm. The only trouble with isolating him is it may cause more stress and if it is worms the chances are the others would also be infected by now. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.

Adam


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## Jazzy B Bunny

I only say that, as it states on the website that they have a back log of orders which might take a while to shift.


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## frogman955

fatlad69 said:


> I agree with Mike, a couple more days shouldn't do any harm. The only trouble with isolating him is it may cause more stress and if it is worms the chances are the others would also be infected by now. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.
> 
> Adam


You`ve been reading my mind Adam.
I completely agree with you.

Mike


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## fatlad69

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> I only say that, as it states on the website that they have a back log of orders which might take a while to shift.


Give Marc at Dartfrog a ring, explain the situation and I am sure he will get it to you ASAP.

Adam


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## frogman955

You beat me to it there Adam.
Yes Jazzy if you call him i`m positive he`ll let your order jump the queue and I doubt that any genuine frog lover will complain about their order being held up for 5 minutes while he posts your one.


Mike


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Well I've ordered some wormer. Hope it turns up soon.


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## frogman955

Nice one Jazzy.
How is the frog doing at the mo ?
Any other changes to it`s condition from before ?

Mike


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## Jazzy B Bunny

He seems ok, just as he was before. Still feeding etc.


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## Jazzy B Bunny

Just got a message saying they are out of stock of panacur til the end of the week  might not be next week now til I get it.


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## DrNick

As I said previously when you asked where to get panacur quickly, you can buy an almost identical preparation for half the price from your local supermarket. Dosing is no more hit and miss than with the product you would get from Dartfrog. If you really want to give it a go, that is how to do it.

Best,

Nick


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## Jazzy B Bunny

I know and I tried to find out the percentage, but nobody would answer me. Money is tight, so I would have rather have bought other stuff.


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## DrNick

Bob Martin worming powder is 22% fenbendazole. precise dosing is impossible regardless of the product you use. If you choose to go this route I would feed a small number of dusted flies (low single figures) to the frog every few days as in my previous post.

Again, this should really only be done on the basis of a positive diagnosis for worms. I cannot guarantee that it will not cause harm on a weak, compromised frog,. All I can say is that I have never had a problem using this method on healthy new acquisitions.

Best of luck,

Nick


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## frogman955

You could try this Jazzy Rainforest Reptile Supplies - Your number 1 store for all of your exotic pet needs
Don`t know how effective it is but it`s similar stuff.

Mike


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## Jazzy B Bunny

I've asked for a refund and I will just get some of the 22% stuff. I don't have £30 to spend on a fecal test right now. Especially since they can come back 'inconclusive' etc.. I'd rather try this way.


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