# snake fangs ?



## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

so what's this about venomous snakes periodically shedding fangs ?
do they go blunt or something ?

thanks


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

We used to keep gaboons and every time they pooped I'd wash it and there'd often be a fang in there. I had quite a collection in the end but lost them in a house move.


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## sticky geckos (Dec 4, 2011)

im sorry to crash your post, but can someone tell me how to write a new post on this site please?


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

am i right in thinking that keepers have been cleaning out vivs before now and caught shed fangs in there fingers with residual venom left in them and ended up ill ?


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Matt Harris said:


> We used to keep gaboons and every time they pooped I'd wash it and there'd often be a fang in there. I had quite a collection in the end but lost them in a house move.


very cool. how often would they shed them then ?



sticky geckos said:


> im sorry to crash your post, but can someone tell me how to write a new post on this site please?


welcome to rfuk.
go to the section you want to post in and above the rules, in the top left it says "new post" press it


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

mikeyb said:


> am i right in thinking that keepers have been cleaning out vivs before now and caught shed fangs in there fingers with residual venom left in them and ended up ill ?


that would suck.


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## sticky geckos (Dec 4, 2011)

so ive clicked forums, i want to write a new one in help and chat section. but i dont see any rules or new post :S


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## _emmie_x_ (Aug 7, 2010)

sticky geckos said:


> so ive clicked forums, i want to write a new one in help and chat section. but i dont see any rules or new post :S


 
_http://imageshack.us/f/696/helpxo.png/_
_^ choose a section_

_http://imageshack.us/f/37/help2u.png/_
_^ Click "new post"_


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

mikeyb said:


> am i right in thinking that keepers have been cleaning out vivs before now and caught shed fangs in there fingers with residual venom left in them and ended up ill ?


You definately have to be careful when cleaning out things like this, especially if you have a naturalistic enclosure with leaves and soil etc. I think the idea is that the residual venom crystallises in the tube of the fang, so if it sticks in your finger, the blood dissolves the crystal so the venow can enter the wound. Not sure how likely this is, but I've heard that it has happened.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> very cool. how often would they shed them then ?


I'm not sure; they're one of those species which seems to store up their poop and do a big one every couple of months. But I do remember finding the fangs quite regularly.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Matt Harris said:


> I'm not sure; they're one of those species which seems to store up their poop and do a big one every couple of months. But I do remember finding the fangs quite regularly.


aah right. i need to look into this some more


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## eliz-uk (Jan 27, 2011)

Matt Harris said:


> You definately have to be careful when cleaning out things like this, especially if you have a naturalistic enclosure with leaves and soil etc. I think the idea is that the residual venom crystallises in the tube of the fang, so if it sticks in your finger, the blood dissolves the crystal so the venow can enter the wound. Not sure how likely this is, but I've heard that it has happened.


I have also heard this before, and one of the many warnings given to me whilst cleaning out these enclosures especially Gaboons! Quite scary yet very interesting!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Matt Harris said:


> You definately have to be careful when cleaning out things like this, especially if you have a naturalistic enclosure with leaves and soil etc. I think the idea is that the residual venom crystallises in the tube of the fang, so if it sticks in your finger, the blood dissolves the crystal so the venow can enter the wound. Not sure how likely this is, but I've heard that it has happened.


This is possible, however you would have to stick yourself with the fang fairly soon after it had been shed (within a day or so), as venom is a protein at the end of the day. In a warm viv it wouldn't take long for a small amount of protein (venom) to denature : victory:


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> This is possible, however you would have to stick yourself with the fang fairly soon after it had been shed (within a day or so), as venom is a protein at the end of the day. In a warm viv it wouldn't take long for a small amount of protein (venom) to denature : victory:


As long as the liquid is removed fairly rapidly (i.e. in a dry viv) it should form crystals and retain activity. I have read of venom crystals from a 20yr old taxidermied cobra being use to kill mice. A friend got a rattlesnake fang stuck in a finger whilst cleaning a viv and got some fairly unpleasant local effects. How long the fang had been in the viv is anybodies guess, but it is certainly a risk worth considering when cleaning out venomous. 

David.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

DavidR said:


> As long as the liquid is removed fairly rapidly (i.e. in a dry viv) it should form crystals and retain activity. I have read of venom crystals from a 20yr old taxidermied cobra being use to kill mice. A friend got a rattlesnake fang stuck in a finger whilst cleaning a viv and got some fairly unpleasant local effects. How long the fang had been in the viv is anybodies guess, but it is certainly a risk worth considering when cleaning out venomous.
> 
> David.


Thats amazing David! Has this been published in a paper anywhere? Id be really interested to read about 'preservation' of venom in this way. I would have thought it would break down by bacterial processes or denature after time.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> Thats amazing David! Has this been published in a paper anywhere? Id be really interested to read about 'preservation' of venom in this way. I would have thought it would break down by bacterial processes or denature after time.


I believe I read it in Andre Menez's "The Subtle Beast", I have lent my copy to a friend so can't check unfortunately. Venom does get chewed up by bacteria pretty rapidly if left unrefrigerated in a liquid state (although some toxins have been shown to have antibacterial properties) but if dried they are reasonably safe (although in this case 'safe' is an oxymoron...) Most proteins and peptides should be thermostable enough to cope with room/viv temperature for a while and I can't see why they wouldn't regain their structure when dissolved in blood. 

I have some 30 year old freeze dried snake venom that was taken out of the freezer a few months a go. Might have to see whether it has any activity!

David.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

DavidR said:


> I believe I read it in Andre Menez's "The Subtle Beast", I have lent my copy to a friend so can't check unfortunately. Venom does get chewed up by bacteria pretty rapidly if left unrefrigerated in a liquid state (although some toxins have been shown to have antibacterial properties) but if dried they are reasonably safe (although in this case 'safe' is an oxymoron...) Most proteins and peptides should be thermostable enough to cope with room/viv temperature for a while and I can't see why they wouldn't regain their structure when dissolved in blood.
> 
> I have some 30 year old freeze dried snake venom that was taken out of the freezer a few months a go. Might have to see whether it has any activity!
> 
> David.


I have a copy - although apparently I didn't read it thoroughly as I completely missed that! I'll certainly have a look though. 

Surely the crystallisation of venom would affect the quaternary structure (at least) of the protein chain? However, the venom may well still be potent even if the venom is no longer in its 'fresh' and complete state. Very interesting - let me know if you ever test that frozen sample of yours! See if any friends have any mice problems


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

id imagine crystilisation isnt that far removed from freeze drying both are through the removal of moisture and in a capillary tube such as a fang not alot of surface area is open to the air for bateria to get access too. id imagine venom spat across the glass viv door denatures rather quickly but in a tube its a whole different story


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> I have a copy - although apparently I didn't read it thoroughly as I completely missed that! I'll certainly have a look though.
> 
> Surely the crystallisation of venom would affect the quaternary structure (at least) of the protein chain? However, the venom may well still be potent even if the venom is no longer in its 'fresh' and complete state. Very interesting - let me know if you ever test that frozen sample of yours! See if any friends have any mice problems


I would guess that venom crystallised within a fang would have less activity than fresh but I would also presume that crystallisation should preserve tertiary structure of most proteins quite faithfully. As long as primary structure is unaffected (remembering that venom proteins and peptides that are active in endotherms must be stable to at least 37.5+*C or more for birds) then proteins can regain secondary and tertiary structure (and possibly quaternary if a complex?). I would be interested to read any input from a biochemist though because my knowledge is very limited. I will try some of the old spectacled cobra venom (although pretty much all asiatic cobras were classified as _Naja naja_ 30+yrs ago so it is anybodies guess what species the venom came from) on an acetylcholine receptor assay if I get a chance. That should give a pretty clear indication of whether it has retained any activity!

David.


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## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

DavidR said:


> I would guess that venom crystallised within a fang would have less activity than fresh but I would also presume that crystallisation should preserve tertiary structure of most proteins quite faithfully. As long as primary structure is unaffected (remembering that venom proteins and peptides that are active in endotherms must be stable to at least 37.5+*C or more for birds) then proteins can regain secondary and tertiary structure (and possibly quaternary if a complex?). I would be interested to read any input from a biochemist though because my knowledge is very limited. I will try some of the old spectacled cobra venom (although pretty much all asiatic cobras were classified as _Naja naja_ 30+yrs ago so it is anybodies guess what species the venom came from) on an acetylcholine receptor assay if I get a chance. That should give a pretty clear indication of whether it has retained any activity!
> 
> David.


Way beyond me, but interesting

I have been stuck by a shed Gaboon fang. I did use to look for them for them in the best place to find them:blush:, when I was cleaning mine out. You do have to get them a fair way in before the opening of the fang is in you.

I have had a reaction before localised swelling and tender to the touch within a couple of hours. I have put this down to an infection caused by the fang having gone through the digestive tract, more than any residual venom, possibly a bit of both


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

DavidR said:


> I would guess that venom crystallised within a fang would have less activity than fresh but I would also presume that crystallisation should preserve tertiary structure of most proteins quite faithfully. As long as primary structure is unaffected (remembering that venom proteins and peptides that are active in endotherms must be stable to at least 37.5+*C or more for birds) then proteins can regain secondary and tertiary structure (and possibly quaternary if a complex?). I would be interested to read any input from a biochemist though because my knowledge is very limited. I will try some of the old spectacled cobra venom (although pretty much all asiatic cobras were classified as _Naja naja_ 30+yrs ago so it is anybodies guess what species the venom came from) on an acetylcholine receptor assay if I get a chance. That should give a pretty clear indication of whether it has retained any activity!
> 
> David.


I agree, although first of all id be interested to find out exactly what happens during 'crystallisation' of venom, and what it entails. I like your humane idea of lab testing your sample on an assay, however i would still be tempted to try it on a live mammal specimen, simply because the ability to 'dissolve' the crystallised venom within living blood would be important - plus youd get an (extremely) primitive idea of the LD50 of the sample as it stands today (which you could compare with various known _naja_ species). I would have thought this would be especially important if testing vipera venom or anything that tends to have necrotic effects. 

Do let me know if you test your sample, fascinating stuff!

Helen : victory:


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> I agree, although first of all id be interested to find out exactly what happens during 'crystallisation' of venom, and what it entails. I like your humane idea of lab testing your sample on an assay, however i would still be tempted to try it on a live mammal specimen, simply because the ability to 'dissolve' the crystallised venom within living blood would be important - plus youd get an (extremely) primitive idea of the LD50 of the sample as it stands today (which you could compare with various known _naja_ species). I would have thought this would be especially important if testing vipera venom or anything that tends to have necrotic effects.
> 
> Do let me know if you test your sample, fascinating stuff!
> 
> Helen : victory:


I'm not sure what happens in a mix of compounds like snake venom, but purified proteins will form crystals by bonding non-covalently. Nowadays it is incredibly difficult to get permission to use live vertebrates and particularly mammals for any experimental work and I think I would be laughed out of the room (and possibly the job) if I suggested it for this curiosity. The assay I have in mind (whole-cell patch-clamp) will be able to give a very accurate figure of just how much activity has been retained. I could compare it with a fresh sample of spectacled cobra venom, but there is so much venom variation within the species, let alone between species that this is unlikely to be a very useful positive control. The patch-clamp will let us know straight away whether the venom (well the alpha-neurotoxins) are still in tact. I could inject some into some locusts and see how they fair as well.

David.


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Fangs that have gone through the digestive tract are unlikely to pose a threat of envenomation, however you really do not want a bacteria laden fang piercing your skin. Venom de-natures quite quickly once exposed to the atmosphere. If collected, prepared and stored correctly it remains viable for a long time... just as well really given the tens of thousands of venom extractions I've done over the last 19 years for research. 

I've been caught by the odd shed fang over the years.... nothing serious, but something to be careful of.


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