# New polypropylene vivariums and accessories



## chewy86

Just putting out feelers at the moment but I am intending to produce a range of polypropylene vivariums and accessories (Hides, bowls and such)
I am going to price these vivariums at £50 above manufacturing cost to make these excellent long lasting, quality built vivariums affordable to everyone in the hobby not just the ones with higher cash flow.

I am open to ideas from people to make the design suit most within the hobby. 

Range intended - 3x2x2 4x2x2 5x2x2 6x2x2 7x3x2 8x3x2 (measured in ft)

The design will be very basic as with a regular melamine vivarium just made from polypropylene. 
I am unsure at the moment if I am going to use a sliding door option or a hinged, side opening window with lock.

All ideas and questions welcome, pricing is a bit up in the air at the moment but will be very affordable and great quality.
No high profit margins intended here, just an affordable great quality product for the masses. (myself included)

chewy86


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## kell_boy

How far along the process are you, I will need 4x2's in a year or so and id much prefer plastic over wood as I have higher humidity species and retic pee rots wood big time, as you say it lasts longer too.

Tell us how much progress you are making towards getting a prototype made and how much it costs to manufacture, but if they are good and for the right price, i would be interested : victory:


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## chewy86

I dont want to give prices untill i get a definate answer from the manufacturer of the product. All i can say is i am intending to do this as a small one man band business to make £50 a vivarium and pennies on any accessories, whilst making them affordable to all. 
At the moment i would love a plastic of any type vivarium but they are either poor quality or out of my price range.

I forget to mention before i am intending to design an arboreal range with a 2x2x2 and 3x2x3 but as i am not a keeper of arboreal species would like more ideas of sizes and spec required.

At the moment i have a basic design with a few differant ideas for detailing. But feel that the range would be much better with input from others in the hobby.


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## ok1hurricane

Cracking idea mate. I do alot of plastic welding at work and have thought about putting my own one together but can never get the time  

Can polypro vivs be fitted with lamps etc?


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## chewy86

This is why others and my self have chosen polypropylene as they are moulded and not welded for a cleaner and stronger finished product. Along with the other benefits of light weight and strength of the material.

That is the differance i am intending to add to the design. An internal heat lamp with ceramic fitment and guard.
I am in talks at present with the manufacturers regarding incorporating this into the design.

Also hoping packages can be put together with bowls hides and arboreal hanging poles.


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## eddygecko

I've thought about this and planned it out a bit before, but planned to use polycarbonate sheets instead of polypropylene. Was going on the info from a guy who sent me pics of these vivs he had made:








They come out a bit more expensive than wooden vivs but are far better insulated and easy to clean. Plus they are majorly lightweight so easy to move around with furniture inside. Also they can be compltely taken apart to transport then reconstructed easily. AND LOOK AWESOME!
Will have to wait till my retics get a bit bigger before i try one but will certainly be interesting .


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## chewy86

Thanks for all your input and interest guys. : victory:


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## chewy86

cant wait to see your retic grow myself mate, very differant :2thumb:


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## eddygecko

Maybe i should delete this just incase... lol


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## chewy86

you bad man!


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## eddygecko

chewy86 said:


> you bad man!


But hes so purdy! How could i resist


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## chewy86

anyone else care to share some options to take into account?


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## chewy86

so many ideas for this vivarium range floating around in my head i have been up since half five and didnt go bed till half two. :bash:


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## Graham

Interesting idea, have you looked into the cost of tooling though? An injection moulding tool, even for the smaller sizes, is going to be hugely expensive isn't it?

It's been a while since I did any injection moulding myself, but back when I did even the small moulds we used cost a lot. Maybe things have changed since then, but I remember we would have to be making thousands of an item to justify the cost of tooling.


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## chewy86

the company informs me they can mould anything with this material i dont think its processed the same as other plastics. Hoping to be able to do custon sizing where a customer only has certain ammount of space in a room that a uniform size may be slightly too big for. The design and process is still under discusion. I just want to get ideas and views before its finalised.


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## swift_wraith

would be interested in seeing a prototype so we can picture the viv. Would be an idea to use frosted perspex as some reps get uncomfortable in a clear space. Plus frosted will still let some light through.


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## naja-naja

would like to see it available in 4'x2'x1' and 6'x3'x18''-20'' (LxWxH) depending on the final price i may be very interested.
would discounts be available for multiple buys?


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## Graham

i


> dont think its processed the same as other plastics


Hmm, maybe some sort of stereo lithography process then? We've used that to have prototype components made, it wasn't exactly cheap though, but technology in that field is changing rapidly so maybe they've already come up with something new.

I'll be interested to see how the process works if you do it, I've been thinking for some time about producing custom turtle tanks and was going to do it in GRP to keep costs down (cheap simple moulds and short production runs), but if there's an easier way now I'd like to know.


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## chewy86

i wouldnt be doing any discount on multiples, because im making the profit margin so small that if i lowered it i might aswell not bother.
The intention is to make a little bit of pocket money additional to my job, out of hours so to speak and supply the hobby with a quality product at a reasonable near on production price.
Reason being i know myself that i cant afford the models already available on the market or cant warrant the extra cost, as they seem to be treble and quadruple melamine prices at present.


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## chewy86

I will keep you updated as things progress and i get clear cut prices and answers to my questions regarding build and costings.

chewy86


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## chewy86

At the moment this is what i am going with -

1) Range of sizes from 2ft-8ft (9+10ft options may available if wanted for huge retics like the likes of steve d own) plus arboreal range (still need input on this)

2) 2 x ceramic buln holders one for basking and one for ambiant/cool end temp control.

3) Sliding doors, same as melamine vivariums.

4) plenty of ventilation with scope to raise or lower for customer.

5) not sure if i should incorporate a lock or just use what the market has to offer ie ones used on melamine vivariums?

6) custom sizing for customers that have a smaller space to offer there pet ie 1100mm and not 1200mm so can fit it in the given space.

7) delivery within the price of the unit across the uk.

8) stats, bulbs and locks i am leaving for the customer to supply as there are so many available on the market and also peoples opinions on them vary a lot.

9) Not sure if to bother with water bowls and such for the above reason but may design a few differant sizes of hide/cave.

Anything you feel ive not taken into acount on design please say and i will try to incorporate some ideas.

thanks
chewy86.


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## DanielF

Graham said:


> Interesting idea, have you looked into the cost of tooling though? An injection moulding tool, even for the smaller sizes, is going to be hugely expensive isn't it?
> 
> It's been a while since I did any injection moulding myself, but back when I did even the small moulds we used cost a lot. Maybe things have changed since then, but I remember we would have to be making thousands of an item to justify the cost of tooling.


Yep tools are still very expensive.. I had mine made a couple weeks back.. £1500 a tool :bash: i should of bought my own machine LOL

OP:
I dont know how your going to do it without the tools but good luck..
Ps: The cheaper alternative would be Line bending & welding which is alot stronger IMO : victory:


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## chewy86

the company i am using to produce the vivariums seems to think with his setup he can set it up to do all sorts of designs using polypropylene and doesntl seem worried that i intend to customise the dimesnsions for individual customers where required. I am yet to meet up and have a look around his business yet so will know more then. Just design and pricing stages at present via email and telephone.


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## DanielF

chewy86 said:


> the company i am using to produce the vivariums seems to think with his setup he can set it up to do all sorts of designs using polypropylene and doesntl seem worried that i intend to customise the dimesnsions for individual customers where required. I am yet to meet up and have a look around his business yet so will know more then. Just design and pricing stages at present via email and telephone.


*
**Personally i think you should scrap the whole molding idea because i can't see how it could be done with no tool.. i say go with line bending & welding.. you could do this all yourself from home if you really wanted too which would cut costs alot*​


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## chewy86

So far the prices are coming out quite good for the quality of the materials and the finish you can get with them.


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## Graham

This has to be some new moulding process that I'm unaware of, because with conventional injection moulding you'd need a big solid steel mould for every size, and that's very expensive, and you couldn't customise the size just like that.

Do you know what the process is that they use, I'd be very interested to find out?


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## chewy86

like i say at the moment he knows what i want making and what i want it making of and he is going to make it. When i visit the factory he may be using a completely differant method to what i first thought. I will email to ask him now and let you know what he comes back with.
My main concern was and still is a quality product for as cheap as possible, to the customers door.


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## chewy86

graham and daniel,

just to let you know the process isnt moulding at all (my mistake) but as you expected welded from flat sheeting.


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## chewy86

got another two companys pricing up for me today. Hopefully these will be the best and cheapest plastic viv on the market. heating and retaining heat the most efficiant also with a ceramic bulb heating option, as this is the prefered method of heating for myself and many others.


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## Graham

> the process isnt moulding at all (my mistake) but as you expected welded from flat sheeting.


Ah, that explains everything! I'll be interested to hear what the prices are going to be like.


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## chewy86

as soon as we can agred on a price i will post up prices and results of prototype testing.


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## chewy86

As soon as i get a price confirmed, i will let you all know.


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## krox2008

sound like a class idea to me and i would be very interested to know about the price and was wondering whether you would be adding a space for a uv tube in these viv ? when you decide on the price could you let me know plz:2thumb:


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## DRD

would the vivs not warp from the heat like the penine vivs?


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## bikenut

A very interesting proposal, I would be very keen to see the initial prototype and price. If is better value than the current argos range I'm certainly in for 1 or 15 Viv's. :mf_dribble:


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## Postcard

DRD said:


> would the vivs not warp from the heat like the penine vivs?


This is what I was wondering - additionally I've heard the penines droop in the middle because they're not supported enough - any ideas on how to stop this?


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## DRD

annabel said:


> This is what I was wondering - additionally I've heard the penines droop in the middle because they're not supported enough - any ideas on how to stop this?


That was another thing that i was going to bring up lol, i ended up throwing my penine in the bin in the end.


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## chewy86

penine vivs are cheap thin plastic these a polypropylene and are much stronger and heat resisatant. 
I have changed the design to have opening door now as sliders arnt as efficiant to clean and keep grubby finger marks off.
A UV tube can be fitted by myself or yourself it is totally upto you.
Please dont get me wrong they arnt going to be penine vivs cheap just cheap for the material used and compared to other higher quality companies that use polypropylene as a build material.
Hoping to be atleast £50 below competitors and also have a more efficiant design all round plus quicker process and delivery times.

Thanks for all your interest and question please feel free to ask away if you have anymore questions

Chewy86


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## Graham

It would be easy to add some stiffening pieces to prevent them warping, these could either be welded in at the production stage or screwed in later on as required.


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## quizicalkat

Ok I have a few questions

Can these be made stackable with groves and sticky out bits with interchangable modules?

Could you make a matching table/ shelving/ cabinet underneath as I have no use for ground vivs.

If I got some I would probably be looking at a base say 18" then 4x2x2 then two 2x2x2 

Then another with a base then two 2x2x2 with four 1x2x2 on top.

The another on base with three 3x18"x18" on top

So It may be difficult to do this without overlapping?

I am also interested in the heat question as my Desert Igys are kept stupidly hot. Oh and what are the insulation properties of this material like?

Thanks


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## Graham

PP is a pretty good insulator, better than glass, but not as good as the chipboard that standard wooden vivs are made from as it would be thinner.

As for heat resistance, you could always test this with a cheap PP washing up bowl.


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## chewy86

i could have bases made, and vivs can stack how ever you like. But its an extra cost for bases cabinets would be big money and no better than cheaper wood ones.my aim is to save people money not to make it more expensive. A base block just to rasie viv off the floor will be made available but not required. Thanks for the response graham in my absense. In addition no reptile will need a temperaure that will effect the polypropylene.


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## Graham

The melting point of PP is typically around 160°C, far above what would be required for any reptile, but not impossible in close vicinity to lightbulbs, some care and common sense would have to be applied when mounting them.


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## DanielF

Graham said:


> The melting point of PP is typically around 160°C, far above what would be required for any reptile, but not impossible in close vicinity to lightbulbs, some care and common sense would have to be applied when mounting them.


The best thing to stop the PP from melting or warping would be to weld a 10mm+ HDPE heat plate to the top of the vivarium so you can then screw all heat lamps ect.. into it.. : victory:


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## chewy86

I am working on either a bracket to solve this or go with something like daniel has suggested. I'm waiting for him to build and test it for me. 250w ceramic un-statted and see how it goes.

Gavin Tudor.


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## Fordyl2k

Looking at getting a Viv around February time so watching with interest


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## chewy86

as soon as i get one made and tested mate i will be setting up the website. Will offer them on rfuk classifieds first.


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## Krista

Hi,

I am quite interested in this...depending on the end cost and the postage. When you have a prototype and price would you PM me...just incase I forget?

Jingle Bells.


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## chewy86

will do krista.


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## Xerse

Sounds interesting, will keep checking for progress on this thread, my corns will need something bigger mid next year, maybe a tad later. :2thumb:


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## chewy86

What would you all prefer as a ventilation option? 

At present im going to vents top and bottom on either end for 1-3ft vivs and 2 in the middle additional on 4ft-6ft vivs with as many as requires on 7ft+ vivs. 
All vents are going to have a cover so you can change the ammount of holes that are open at any given times/location to control your own humidity preferances.

Sound good?

Or would you prefer a couple of mm gap around the doors for ventilation and a sealed back to the viv?


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## mrhoyo

The first vent idea sounds best, I think pp can be easily drilled if needed anyway.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

I think ive found my company now, just finalising design and prices per unit plus delivery. Hoping to offer a stat,bulb holder, bulb and guard deal to go with the unit or unit sold with ceramic holder alone.

. 6mm polypropylene vivarium with drilled vents and covers.
. 6mm acrylic windows (opening like a cabinet) with camlocks and hinges.
. ceramic bulb holder, bulb and guard. (stat optional)
. fair priced delivery to customers house.
. quick turn around from order to recieving vivarium.
. cheapest and highest quality polypropylene vivarium on the market.

Thanks
Chewy86


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## chewy86

I am going with pulse proportional stats with the heating package but i would like to hear which make you would like to see offered.
I have always used habistat with great success but if you know of a cheaper make of stat that rivals habistat i will go with that to bring costs down again for you.

Chewy86


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## chewy86

bump for more opinions on what people would like to see available.


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## DanielF

chewy86 said:


> I think ive found my company now, just finalising design and prices per unit plus delivery. Hoping to offer a stat,bulb holder, bulb and guard deal to go with the unit or unit sold with ceramic holder alone.
> 
> . 6mm polypropylene vivarium with drilled vents and covers.
> . 6mm acrylic windows (opening like a cabinet) with camlocks and hinges.
> . ceramic bulb holder, bulb and guard. (stat optional)
> . fair priced delivery to customers house.
> . quick turn around from order to recieving vivarium.
> . cheapest and highest quality polypropylene vivarium on the market.
> 
> Thanks
> Chewy86


You might want to tell them which colours the vivariums can come in..

Natural PP - Looks like a soild white but it allows light travel through the material... the best material IMO
Black PP - Is a soild colour which won't allow light to travel through apart from through the acrylic door.
White PP - Is a soild colour which won't allow light to travel through apart from through the acrylic door


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## chewy86

i have asked for black and white so this pleases me greatly daniel. Cant believe some of the quotes ive recieved. I am getting these made cheap, and selling them for next to no profit to be the cheapest. Im actualy making nothing on the heating setup package not even a penny. I also hand on heart believe these will be the most efficiant and cheapest polypropylene viv on the market.


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## DanielF

chewy86 said:


> i have asked for black and white so this pleases me greatly daniel. Cant believe some of the quotes ive recieved. I am getting these made cheap, and selling them for next to no profit to be the cheapest. Im actualy making nothing on the heating setup package not even a penny. I also hand on heart believe these will be the most efficiant and cheapest polypropylene viv on the market.


They may be the cheapest but they may not be the best & thats most viv builders down fall


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## chewy86

if there not ill change and change them till they are mate. Money is my second priority behind quality and being numero uno and cheaper.


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## Xerse

chewy86 said:


> I am going with pulse proportional stats with the heating package but i would like to hear which make you would like to see offered.
> I have always used habistat with great success but if you know of a cheaper make of stat that rivals habistat i will go with that to bring costs down again for you.
> 
> Chewy86



I personally use habistat, prefer them to any other really. :2thumb:


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## chewy86

same with me mate so i will go with that.


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## Xerse

I like all your idea's so far :2thumb:


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## chewy86

thanks xerse. Hopefully tommorow i will have a price for my range and can get some feedback on that. Believe me when i say im making next to nothing on these. the materials and labour alone is the main cost.


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## Speeple

I've been planning doing something similar, I have the designs etc., but not yet found a decent company. 

To use plastic for 6ft+ vivariums you're going to have to take into consideration structural integrity, with 6mm PE you're losing the inert strength the box shape gives to smaller designs. Some kind of lattice/bridging will be required - especially if you plan to offer 10 footers (must be a tiny market for these to be honest).

My initial plan was to teach myself plastic welding, my dad works for BAE so could help with that - but then costing up the raw materials - plastic sheets - the money I could extract to make a profit almost seemed negligible, so for now I'll be doing them for personal use. Sadly for the commercial side I did all the branding etc...


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## Kaouthia

naja-naja said:


> would like to see it available in 4'x2'x1'


Aye, I could go for some 4x2x1. 



chewy86 said:


> graham and daniel,
> 
> just to let you know the process isnt moulding at all (my mistake) but as you expected welded from flat sheeting.


So, they're like Boaphiles then?


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## chewy86

7/8ft are the largest i will have in my range but will try to make one off 9-10ft vivariums, for those that require if anyone ever does that is.
They are like boaphiles but in the uk and contain ceramic bulbs for heating with deluxe guard instead of under viv mat heating. 
Mine also have two cabinet style doors and not one drop down door that you need a stand or additional box to be able to open properly.
Plus mine is made from polypropylene and not pvc. 
If you had to compare them to anyone elses design they would be more like rhino vivs in terms of quality materials used but differant heating a design (i believe is more efficiant). And also cheaper with quicker delivery.

Chewy86


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> They are ike boaphiles but in the uk and contain ceramic bulbs for heating with deluxe guard instead of under viv mat heating.


Presumably you'll sell them without heating? Not all of us want to use bulbs. 



chewy86 said:


> They also have two cabinet style doors and not one drop down door that you need a stand or additional box to be able to open properly.


huh? You've lost me. You open a couple of latches, the front drops down, you take out your snake. Reverse this process to put it away. I'm not sure what you mean by "a stand or additional box".


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## chewy86

I am selling vivs on there own and also with a heating package. I am looking into offering a ahs heating option also but not mats as i dont rate that idea personally for my design anyway.

What i meant is that with rhino vivs and boaphiles, to open the door fully you require an additional box to raise the vivarium off the floor. Where as with mine they open outwards so that the doors can open fully to allow easier access to snake and to clean the encolosure including windows.

With the addition of them being cheaper, arriving quicker and have a cermaic heating option. I believe that they are to be a very well priced high quality range of vivariums.


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## Kaouthia

I look forward to seeing some concept artwork, a prototype, anything really. 

I'd rather have sliding glass or dropdown fronts over cabinet style opening doors really (except on the arboreals).


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## chewy86

My initial design had sliding doors. But this was more costly to make due to labour and also makes it harder to clean the windows as apposed to drop downs or cabinet opening. The reason i have not used drop down is because others use this method and i dont want an identical design and also i dint like the idea that if you only owned one of my vivariums you could not open the doors fully without an additional spacer base.

I am still waiting for confirmation on the prices i have advised i must be making these at before i can say anymore on price or get a prototype home for testing and photographing for you all to see the end product.

To help with initial image of the viv. It is the same overall look as rhino vivs but has differant dimensions, differant opening doors and a differant heat source supplied. Also prices and delivery times and the like are differant. (The most important bit) Quality vivarium, Higher cost to make, cheaper to buy i cant offer much more than that.

Thanks
Gavin Tudor.


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## Speeple

Hope you've done your product research. Providing a odd mechanical operation for the opening doesn't make sense, especially if the only reasoning is not doing the same as the competition. I mean, is the cleaning of the glass really that big a selling point? Personally it wouldn't tempt me - it seems a non-issue, on all my designs for HDPE cages I've implemented sliding doors. After all, there are very strong reasons the competition use conventional sliding glass, or, in the case of Rhino vivs, a drop down door. If it's a viable business you're hoping to create, stick to the basics, solid design principles based on minor modifications of the competition, whilst competitively priced. You'd probably be surprised at how much custom you can get by simply being on a price-parity with competitors. Trying to do everything from the get go (unless you're not concerned with the finances) won't be easy.


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> My initial design had sliding doors. But this was more costly to make due to labour and also makes it harder to clean the windows as apposed to drop downs or cabinet opening. The reason i have not used drop down is because others use this method and i dont want an identical design and also i dint like the idea that if you only owned one of my vivariums you could not open the doors fully without an additional spacer base.


Personally, I don't think the bottom level of a stack of cages or a single cage sitting on a desk, for example, not having the door hanging down vertically isn't a big problem. You're still able to reach in and pull your animal out.

Perhaps the other cage companies use that format of door because it *works* and it's what customers want.

But, I'll reserve judgement until I see a finished product. 

Out of curiosity, how much extra did the sliding door option add to the cost? And is it something you might consider offering if people are willing to pay for it? Not sure how it'd be hard to clean though, simply remove it from the viv, go clean it, then replace it, that's how I've always done it.


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## chewy86

In terms of design mine will be not differant structuraly to a drop down door design. Its built the same way and shape, but has doors hinged to open outwards and not downwards so neither here nor there.

I will get a sliding door option priced up for you and let you know how much additional cost is there.

My main reason for opting for cabinet doors as i felt that was a good design benefit. If the majority think otherwise at this point in the design stage i can change that to suit the potential customers preferances?


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## Kaouthia

Aye, it's nice on the arboreal ones for sure, but having a pair of 4ft long doors that open sideways might be a bit restrictive on larger cages.


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## chewy86

most of the vivariums sold will be 2-6ft in length. There will be for example on a 1200mm viv. 75mm of viv front face before the start of the left window then 75mm centre column and 75mm at the other end. So thats 225mm off the 1200m length. Each window/door will then be 487mm/19" and thats going off 75mm we may go thicker for support reasons. 
In turn making the door/window no larger than a drop down version.
On the 7-8ft vivs i may have to have use a drop down door/window, if it is going to be an issue for space. I will just have to see but 2-5/6ft should be perfectly fine.


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## Graham

I made some large plastic boxes for a client a while back using Foamex PVC sheet, it's easily glued using PVC Weld Cement which gives a very strong permanent bond.

The advantage of Foamex is that it has a lightweight foam core, for large unsupported areas you can use thicker more rigid sheet with no weight penalty compared to solid plastics like PP and PE, so less need for reinforcing, it's also very tough.

Glued construction is also something you can do yourself, so better for the homebuilder and maybe cheaper for production too?


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## Biggys

chewy86 said:


> Just putting out feelers at the moment but I am intending to produce a range of polypropylene vivariums and accessories (Hides, bowls and such)
> I am going to price these vivariums at £50 above manufacturing cost to make these excellent long lasting, quality built vivariums affordable to everyone in the hobby not just the ones with higher cash flow.
> 
> I am open to ideas from people to make the design suit most within the hobby.
> 
> Range intended - 3x2x2 4x2x2 5x2x2 6x2x2 7x3x2 8x3x2 (measured in ft)
> 
> The design will be very basic as with a regular melamine vivarium just made from polypropylene.
> I am unsure at the moment if I am going to use a sliding door option or a hinged, side opening window with lock.
> 
> All ideas and questions welcome, pricing is a bit up in the air at the moment but will be very affordable and great quality.
> No high profit margins intended here, just an affordable great quality product for the masses. (myself included)
> 
> chewy86


Deffinatly Sliding doors 
i won't buy rhino vivs as they don't have sliding doors they only have 
fold down 
would you be able to build in situe ?


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## chewy86

I will get a price for having sliding doors over hinged. Im sure he said with the extra labour time in doing this it would make a good bit of differance price wise. This is one reason i moved away from sliding doors, on top of that the locks for sliding doors arnt as good as a camlock used in hinged doors.


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## Biggys

chewy86 said:


> I will get a price for having sliding doors over hinged. Im sure he said with the extra labour time in doing this it would make a good bit of differance price wise. This is one reason i moved away from sliding doors, on top of that the locks for sliding doors arnt as good as a camlock used in hinged doors.


ahh i see i prefer sliding TBH don't know why 
it's nice to see you do big sizes 
would you be able to build in situe ??


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## chewy86

Foamex has a max temperature use of 60c, i am reading so would be out of the question for that reason alone.


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## Speeple

Why not have 3 ft depth an option for 5 ft+?

I hate it when people plonk a huge snake in a long viv thinking it's OK because it falls in the floor space area rule, when in fact many heavy bodied species would feel cramped in a 6x2x2, where a 6x3x2 would be much much better.


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## chewy86

Im afraid not they would be ready built and delivered in one piece.


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## Biggys

chewy86 said:


> Im afraid not they would be ready built and delivered in one piece.


oh ok mate thanks for the honest answer :2thumb:

Ty


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## chewy86

I am offering each customer the choice of size, if you want a 5ft tall 3ft long and 3ft deep viv ill get a quote for it mate. The main reason i think people go for 6x2x2 over 5x3x3 is most dont have the wall/space to have 3ft of viv sticking out. (Right or wrong, i would guess thats why)
The beauty of the method of production is there is no tooling so i can make any size required. This was something i wanted as i explained to the guy, I may sell a 1200x600x450 viv but a customer may have a space in the spare room for a 1900x500x450 only (for example) So I could accomodate his individual needs within the build.

Chewy86


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## chewy86

I did think of that biggy. I wanted to have two halves that clipped together but again its cost and your creating structual weaknesses.

Chewy86


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## Biggys

chewy86 said:


> I did think of that biggy. I wanted to have two halves that clipped together but again its cost and your creating structual weaknesses.
> 
> Chewy86


yeah as soon as you cut in half your taking away the structual integraty
would you be able to do mini vivs like foot squared ?


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## chewy86

Any viv, any size, shape, colour. Yes if you want a red viv or a yellow one you can have it. But it is 10% more expensive on materials for coloured. so a £200 viv for example will be £220-£225 in yellow (example not gospel)

Chewy86


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## Biggys

chewy86 said:


> Any viv, any size, shape, colour. Yes if you want a red viv or a yellow one you can have it. But it is 10% more expensive on materials for coloured. so a £200 viv for example will be £220-£225 in yellow (example not gospel)
> 
> Chewy86


Sweet
i was thinking for T's and mantids 
they would be good as you could keep high humidity animals in these viv as they are a plastic type material

It would be cool to do i high contrast viv say black viv and a GTP 
it would be awsome : victory:
Ty


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## chewy86

If im completely honest i decided to make these vivs purely so they could be the cheapest and most efficiant vivariums available to sale. Unfortunatly with the cost of the materials they arnt as cheap as i had hoped they would be. 
But that being said they are still atleast £50 cheaper and than my competitors and hopefully i can design them to customers exact needs every time. Plus as i have said before get them to you quickly.
I will be making very little profit on them but i will enjoy doing it, if it doesnt take off ill stop doing it simple as. 
For me just being the cheapest and hopefully with time and work the best quality vivarium on the market thats enough for me. Plus with them being made from polypropylene and acrylic, they will last a lifetime and wont become a health hazard to you or your reptiles. 

If im nothing else, im honest and forward about my ideals and my reasons for starting this business. And also i know im doing it for the right reasons.

Chewy86


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## mrhoyo

> If im completely honest i decided to make these vivs purely so they could be the cheapest and most efficiant vivariums available to sale. Unfortunatly with the cost of the materials they arnt as cheap as i had hoped they would be.
> But that being said they are still atleast £50 cheaper and than my competitors and hopefully i can design them to customers exact needs every time. Plus as i have said before get them to you quickly.
> I will be making very little profit on them but i will enjoy doing it, if it doesnt take off ill stop doing it simple as.
> For me just being the cheapest and hopefully with time and work the best quality vivarium on the market thats enough for me. Plus with them being made from polypropylene and acrylic, they will last a lifetime and wont become a health hazard to you or your reptiles.
> 
> If im nothing else, im honest and forward about my ideals and my reasons for starting this business. And also i know im doing it for the right reasons.
> 
> Chewy86


Does this mean they're ridiculously expensive?
Any chance of a concept drawing or pics of a prototype?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## faceplant

From Wiki....doesn't look good for viv material

Degradation

Polypropylene is liable to chain degradation from exposure to heat and UV radiation such as that present in sunlight. Oxidation usually occurs at the tertiary carbon atom present in every repeat unit. A free radical is formed here, and then reacts further with oxygen, followed by chain scission to yield aldehydes and carboxylic acids. In external applications, it shows up as a network of fine cracks and crazes that become deeper and more severe with time of exposure.

For external applications, UV-absorbing additives must be used. Carbon black also provides some protection from UV attack. The polymer can also be oxidized at high temperatures, a common problem during molding operations. Anti-oxidants are normally added to prevent polymer degradation.


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## chewy86

My aim is to sell for example the 1200x600x450 vivarium with full heating and delivery for £290. And £225 just the viv again with delivery included.

The heating gear i am selling at cost, to save customers money again.
And I bid anyone the task of getting the below for less than £65 delivered.
If you can ill have it and knock the diferance off the price.

That includes - 

. pulse proportional day and night stat
. hanging, ceramic bulb holder with heat proof cable and plug
. heat reflector
. 250w ceramic bulb
. deluxe ceramic guard

If you want to me use an inferior (in my eyes) method of heating ie a heat mat and save you money again i will but i feel that will lower the efficiancy of the vivarium greatly and be a shame when you can get all the above for trade cost. Is saving £25-30 more important that pet?

The guy who is making them is also making a small ammount of profit with the view of accumelating profits over a 12 month period as am I.
These prices arnt stupidly expensive they are stupidly cheap and you will not find one any cheaper anywhere. Most places wanted between £280-420 just to build the viv with no delivery or heating.
When i started looking at this project again ill be honest i thought, Greedy viv builders trying to get rich at our expense over night ill get mine selling at £200 for everything. But i can only just about get the viv made for that and ive had to mither this poor bloke to death to knock him down to that. Sometimes i think people automaticaly assume someone is trying to rip them off (myself included as i confessed above) and if your still not sure do some quoting up yourself, you will then see that i am being as i have from the start up front and honest about all aspects of this business.

To reply to previous post - 

In terms of breakdown rhino vivs have been trading for 3-4years now using the same materials and i dont believe there have been any problems with breaking down of materials mentioned.

The guy who owns the company informs me that it is a very heat resistant material and will have no problems with heat unless you put something stupidly hot directly on to the polypropylene itself (which im not)

thanks
Chewy86


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> If you want to me use an inferior (in my eyes) method of heating ie a heat mat and save you money again i will but i feel that will lower the efficiancy of the vivarium greatly and be a shame when you can get all the above for trade cost. Is saving £25-30 more important that pet?


I'll assumed that was aimed at me, as I said I didn't want to use CHEs. There are heating methods other than CHEs and heat mats. Actually, by going with CHEs, that'd be a cheaper route and I'd probably be saving £25-30 per viv, but is that more important than my pets? 

But £225 isn't a completely unrealistic figure for viv of that size, especially if that includes shipping.

If you could work me out a rough price for a 48x24x12 with sliding doors, that'd be great.


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## chewy86

Kaouthia that was aimed at the market, not you and im sorry if it looked that way. I have had that many emails and posts to read and send, i forget who has asked and said what lol. I will get a quote for sliders as an additional to all vivs as the main expense for them is labour costs. 
Will also work out with him a price for your required dimensions. What heating method do you refer to when you say other than mats and bulbs? Im sure ahs heaters cost more even though they have built in stat, plus i would have to sell them guarded, for my own peace of mind.

Thanks and in glad someone can see that i am trying to be fair with pricing.

chewy86


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## chewy86

The 4x2x1 (48x24x12) viv you want quoting for would be 1220x610x305 in mm (how the dimensions are measured at the factory). Would you be happy with 1200x600x300 as believe it or not, those small differance to your snakes enclosure. Can make a big differance to the hole in your waller/purse, due to the sizes the polpropylene sheets are produced/purchased at. 

Chewy86.


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> Will also work out with him a price for your required dimensions.


Thanks Chewy 



chewy86 said:


> What heating method do you refer to when you say other than mats and bulbs? Im sure ahs heaters cost more even though they have built in stat, plus i would have to sell them guarded, for my own peace of mind.


Well, I recently picked up some of the reptile radiators (each with its own Habistat pulse stat) for a stack I'm building. It's a 4'x2'x4' unit, split into three vivs of 4'x2'x14" (to account for the 18mm thickness of each floor level and the ceiling at the top). For a viv of this kind of height (12-15"), CHEs and guards hang down quite a fair amount, so I was looking into the radiant heat panels as another option to save on some vertical space at the warm end. The more I've been playing around with them and testing, the more impressed I am becoming by them.

SPS has them at the moment for a hair under £40 (most other places I've seen have them for £60-65), with the guard at another £13.



chewy86 said:


> The 4x2x1 (48x24x12) viv you want quoting for would be 1220x610x305 in mm (how the dimensions are measured at the factory). Would you be happy with 1200x600x300


Sure, it's close enough.


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## Lotus Nut

_Greedy viv builders trying to get rich at our expense over night

_Can you clarify this then????


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## Kaouthia

Lotus Nut said:


> Can you clarify this then????


I took it as meaning that he initially thought viv builders had a much higher profit than they actually do.


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## chewy86

Thats exactly what I meant Kaouthia. I thought that was why they were so expensive and for some that is why ie herpteks dont cost £750 to make in a million years. But others like myself sell for a small profit and are honest about their costs and profits.


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## Lotus Nut

The reason prices you can offer lower prices is because you are not doing this a prime business just some 'pocket money' in addition to your job so of course you can quote lower prices than those made by reputable manufacturers who have to pay for design/development/marketing/production/tax/premises/warranty/support etc.


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## chewy86

My product is no differant to any other vivarium, except it is cheaper to buy and less profit being made from selling them. I designed the vivarium myself (not rocket science) I have sourced a company that can produce the product at a price that is fair and affordable. If there is a problem of course i will offer support and a warranty on anything that is faulty due to build failure, and not accidental damage.
And your right im not silly enough to think that i can quit my job and live off ripping people off on big mark up vivarium prices. But making small ammounts of profit but enjoying being the cheapest, high quality vivarium brand on the market. To me that means more than any figure, if i get that right the money will come with satisfied customers returning and refering my product to friends and family in the hobby/business.

Chewy86.


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## chewy86

design - did this at home and the companys 2d-3d software did the rest for no cost. (so irrelevant cost)

development - I have to pay for all the prototypes to be built and tested and thats not cheap melamine that £225 just to test the first build.

marketing - doesnt need to be done with cost when you have forums like rfuk and a good product that people reccomend to friends and family through being pleased with your product and prices alone. (helps that i am one of only two companys who will offer a vivarium made with polypropylene in the uk and im cheaper)

premises - I have to pay labour costs that melamine vivarium builders dont as they buy materials in bulk at cost at build them themselves for free and make the differance in profit.

Warranty - Is offered on all products. If the product fails to do the job it was designed to do or is damaged in transport. I will replace it at no extra cost, of course if it is accidental damage at home that can not be helped by myself.

Support - If the product arrives with a problem it will be solved, if people need advise with using the product they will get help.

All the things you mention are either irrelevant to my business or are at no expense to me or anyone else at all making them irrelevant.

Chewy86.


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> build them themselves for free and make the differance in profit.


Time is not free. If you're working full time for yourself, that does not mean you should not earn a full time wage.

If you start doing these, and you suddenly get an order for 30 4ft vivs, how soon could you expect to deliver?


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## chewy86

I know time isnt free but paying a business labour fee's and building something at home with you own time is a totally differant ball game. ie a car garage may charge you £90-100 labour per hour, but you doing the job yourself at home would not be £90-100 an hour cost.
especially when most of us work for someone else for £6-8 an hour. Also you cant expect to charge labour and try and make profit on materials aswell. you either mark up on materials or you charge for the labour involved in building the product.

Bulk orders will have to be asessed with the company, at the time of order as peoples work loads alter. I will let customers know at the time of order.

Chewy86


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## chewy86

im going to get my answer monday regarding prices. Ive also now decided to offer sliding doors, cabinets and drop down options. The 1-3ft vivs will have one door (except sliding of course) 4ft plus, will have two windows and strengthening centre panel. Ventilation will also be optional and to customers spec. So basicaly everything is going to be customised for your needs.


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## chewy86

monday i get my response regarding prices. Ive now decided to offer sliding doors, cabinets and drop down options. The 1-3ft vivs will have one door (except sliding of course) 4ft plus, will have two windows and strengthening centre panel. Ventilation will also be optional and to customers spec. So basicaly everything is going to be customised for your needs.[/QUOTE]


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## faceplant

Bearing in mind the comment I posted at the top of page 10.

'Polypropylene is liable to chain degradation from exposure to heat and UV radiation such as that present in sunlight. Oxidation usually occurs at the tertiary carbon atom present in every repeat unit.'

Now, heat and UV are two of the main elements in 80% of the environments that the customer will be recreating, what kind of warranty can you offer against something that is liable to happen? 

From working with local govs, my knowledge of trading standards tells me they would nail your backside if you're selling a product for a purpose that is scientifically proven unfit for purpose. What are your terms of use for the product? Do they cover your ass.. CYA (cover your ass) especially selling a product.

Bear in mind I'm not attacking the product but these are questions that will need to be answered before a product goes to the market, because if that poly starts to break down and my poisenous beast of some description decides to have a stretch and cracks open a hole...Someone is going to need deep pockets.


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## chewy86

i will ask the question and let you know the answer. Im sure he would have mentioned it, if what your saying is true as thats his business. Plus as i say rhinovivs have used the product with no problems for 3-4 years. Maybe there are differant forms again i will have to ask. If its ok to use with food it will be fine for an enclosure i would of thought mate.


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## chewy86

just read the wiki article you are on about. Later in the information It also refers to the stabilizers that are used to prevent polypropylene from having these problems. Hope this helps untill i clarify tommorow


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## peterf

chewy86 said:


> Thats exactly what I meant Kaouthia. I thought that was why they were so expensive and for some that is why ie herpteks dont cost £750


Most expensive Herptek is £643 including VAT retail and cheaper to distributors.
You are talking about gluing sheets of plastic together and there is nothing wrong with that but Herpteks are moulded and each tool costs in excess of £10,000 which has to be paid back through sales.
I have actually manufactured glued together vivs and also manufactured aluminium resin tools to make vacuum formed vivs and didn't pursue either idea for too long. Labour costs in cutting and gluing sheets is high. 
Knowing the costs of plastic it is not possible to make cheap plastic cages but I do wish you well with the idea.
Another problem is, once you start selling you will soon have a turnover that will warrant VAT which will increase the selling price dramatically. Together with the costs of premises (to be able to cope with orders of big empty boxes you will need a lot of space) and liability insurance there are no vivarium manufacturers that are getting rich quick!
Couriering big cages is also not possible and they need to be palletised. 
Dont be put off by my comments but do a bit more homework. With the raw material costs very high, even when not selling to distributors and shops you will still see costs much higher than you expect.
I am not trying to put you off, but I suspect you will find costs are considerably more than you think.
Good luck with your idea and dependent on how you do this, it could be that you can design and build a viv and sell it competatively but dont fall into the trap that others have on here.
One particular individual springs to mind taking deposits of people and offering fibreglass vivs and in the end he realised he couldn't make them at that price and disappeared.
Once again good luck and don't be put off by my ramblings but do your costings carefully!


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## chewy86

thanks for taking the time to reply to my thread peter, as i know you dont get too much time to frequant the forums anymore. Your points are very valid and the main reason i have used a third party in the business. The company who are producing the vivariums for me have a lot of warehouse space and several delivery vans at my disposal. The prices are being agreed in advance including delivery costs. Plus as you say there will be no initial tooling costs or huge financial outlay to get started. Dont get me wrong im not doing this with the idea im going to be rich, i just want to sell a quality affordable vivarium. Which if you are the peterf i think you are i could do with some pricings for heating materials and even some further advice. Thankyou again for your advice.


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## chewy86

FAO - faceplant 

This is the response i have recieved today regarding your concerns with p.p -

PP natural is semi translucent and is vulnerable to attack by UV. So it is not used in outdoor applications. If it has carbon black blended with it then UV stability is reckoned to be about 15 years outside. (Other stabilizers are used for different colours but carbon black is most common) I have two tanks which have been out in all weathers for the last 12 years and they are still going strong. I'm am not sure if proper UV light is used in vivariums (proper UV is a very bright bluish white light used to sterilise and in tanning machines). If it is then I would suggest a ten year operating life to be on the safe side.
I am not aware of any compounds leaching out of PP in any circumstances other than when it is burnt, we use this material to make water tanks for drinking water because there is no taint from the plastic at all.

And in this case i feel that the material will have a 20 year life minimum if not a lot longer as no one will be intending to keep their vivariums outside and a bit of uv light through the window will not cause massive exposure.

Hope this puts your mind at rest
Chewy86.


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## mrhoyo

Have you got prices yet then?


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## chewy86

I have got the prices that i want to sell them at but the company are working out figures at their end to see if they can profit from these prices.

An example sale price -

1200x600x450 viv with delivery (No heating) £225

but again they may tell me the prices im proposing are not worth their involvement and time. As i say most/all other companys i quoted with wanted double what im offering and most almost triple.

Chewy86.


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## Speeple

Hmm, I'm guessing that price margin is extremely tight. Especially considering Rhino's are quite similar in price for that size - and have a good reputation (for the actual product - not so much customer service at present).


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## mrhoyo

Speeple said:


> Hmm, I'm guessing that price margin is extremely tight. Especially considering Rhino's are quite similar in price for that size - and have a good reputation (for the actual product - not so much customer service at present).


Just what I was thinking.

Unless you can undercut Rhino by 25% I think people will choose them despite their pretty bad customer service at the moment.


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## chewy86

Well that only time will tell, im afraid. The differance in price will be around £50 for the viv and delivery. When you go into heating though the differance gets a little more noticable as with rhino vivs you get a mat and stat choice only. My prices will be with a full ceramic setup with no extra p&p cost. So if people want the same quality product for £50-100 less with quick delivery and a good customer service people will come to me. Lets face it if you could go to currys and get an ipod touch for £200 or go to argos and get one for £250-300. Where would you go? Is it still only £50-100 saving? or is it a bargain to be had? 25% saving on rhino vivs would be £206.25 so im not far off really. When heating and extra p&p charges come into it i will be around 25% cheaper. Plus you get more for your money with the heating package containing a lot more and being able to achieve higher temperatures without high room temps being reuired. Please also remember these materials are expensive before labour charges and delivery. You will also find that no wooden viv builders are selling their vivs 25% less than competitors. Thats because there isnt the scope to do so, this leads me back to the something for nothing way of thinking. That i myself had before starting this project. If you want quality you have to pay for it, there is no way around it. ( trust me Ive tried)

Chewy86.


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## mrhoyo

> Well that only time will tell, im afraid. The differance in price will be around £50 for the viv and delivery. When you go into heating though the differance gets a little more noticable as with rhino vivs you get a mat and stat choice only for which you pay extra p&p charges for. My prices will be with a full ceramic setup with no extra p&p cost. So if people want the same quality product for £50-100 less with quick delivery and a good customer service people will come to me. Lets face it if you could go to currys and get an ipod touch for £200 or go to argos and get one for £300. Where would you go? Is it still only £100? saving or is it a bargain to be had? 25% saving on rhino vivs would be £206.25 so im not far off really. When heating and extra p&p charges come into it i will be around 25% cheaper. Please also remember these materials are expensive before labour charges. You will also find that no wooden viv builder is selling their vivs 25% less than competitors. Thats because there isnt the scope to do so, this leads me back to the something for nothing way of thinking that i myself has before starting this project. If you want quality you have to pay for it, there is no way around it. (Ive tried)
> 
> Chewy86.


Are these going to be as good as rhino in terms of quality? Have you planned the testing process yet?
I'm excited if they're a genuine alternative

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

Well they are identical materials at identical thickness, processed in the same manor. Hinged and camlocked the same, they just have a differant heating method that common sense tells us heat more efficiantly. They are going to be sold cheaper and also be very flexible with customisation in terms of colours, shapes and dimesnions.

Once the company agree on my prices (hoping they will) I will be ordering in the first lot of heating equiptment and having the prototype built. I will be testing it myself initially unstatted to see how the material copes if ever the stat failed. then statted at 90f to see how it hold heat and humidity. 

Chewy86.


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## Wills

get the prototypes built here then go to china and have them remade, build a quality control margin into the contract and proceed that way.

unless you make them yourself you wont be able to compete imo

dont forget vat, you wont have to sell many units to hit the vat threshold


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## chewy86

I did think of the china route but at the moment i will stay in the uk, and see how they take off. vat wont come into play unless im earning 40k a year plus and if i have to charge vat i wont have to pay the vat, that i am at the moment to the company building them. So it shouldnt make too much differance in that respect to my prices.


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## Wills

its based on turnover and closer to 60k but thats very easy to reach in this day and age {and remember if you do reach the threshold in one year you have to pay the full ammount not the ammount over 60k} which equates to £12,000

the sort of customer who would buy these will be likely to buy more than one say 4 on average spending more than 1k with you.

you will have to consider cash flow as well, as you cant take payment upfront in this day and age, unless its for immediate delivery.

so you will be making about a 20% margin and will then loose 20% of that to vat so if this is a full time venture you will need to have an income i would estimate at least of £250 per week to survive.

£250 take home {before tax} means you will have to have a turnover of £78,000

i applaud your intrests and good nature but you really need to be realistic on the costs involved and the potential income.

Im only saying it from someone who has done it and ended up hating the trade he was in from it.


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## StuG

chewy86 said:


> Well that only time will tell, im afraid. The differance in price will be around £50 for the viv and delivery. When you go into heating though the differance gets a little more noticable as with rhino vivs you get a mat and stat choice only. My prices will be with a full ceramic setup with no extra p&p cost. So if people want the same quality product for £50-100 less with quick delivery and a good customer service people will come to me. Lets face it if you could go to currys and get an ipod touch for £200 or go to argos and get one for £250-300. Where would you go? Is it still only £50-100 saving? or is it a bargain to be had? 25% saving on rhino vivs would be £206.25 so im not far off really. When heating and extra p&p charges come into it i will be around 25% cheaper. Plus you get more for your money with the heating package containing a lot more and being able to achieve higher temperatures without high room temps being reuired. Please also remember these materials are expensive before labour charges and delivery. You will also find that no wooden viv builders are selling their vivs 25% less than competitors. Thats because there isnt the scope to do so, this leads me back to the something for nothing way of thinking. That i myself had before starting this project. If you want quality you have to pay for it, there is no way around it. ( trust me Ive tried)
> 
> Chewy86.


Rhinovivs can be heated using using AHS, ceramics or mats. We also offer discount for bulk orders.
Producing and competing in the vivarium market is difficult and i wish you well in your venture


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## chewy86

Thanks ahgain for your input and advice. I am going to be working full time whilst setting up this business, so at first i am not to concerned with paying myself a garunteed weekly wage, although i will be making profits.
My main problem as you have pointed out would be the method of which i took orders from customers, as i would not have ie 2k to pay for a large order. And taking payment on delivery would not be an option as the courier could not deal with the finances. 
Initially i would of thought people would be cautious and buy a single vivarium to try it out and see what they thought. Before buying in bulk although i may be wrong and that would have to be arranged with the customer in advance. I would hope that by then my company has built up a good customer base and is trusted not to be pulling any stupid stunts that would end, what should be eventually a very lucrative business.

Chewy86.


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## chewy86

Im sorry Stu the only options i could see available on your website were mat and stat options. I know i have heard people say that they have sourced their own ahs heaters, but didnt realise with them not being on the website that you sold them as an option. I must admit i have never heard of ceramic bulb heating in a rhino viv by anyone, so thanks for clearing that up.
As i have admitted in this thread already, Iinitially I thought that yourselves and other high quality plastic viv producers were highly overpriced. And must have a high profit margin. Now i have researched into producing my own line, i now know this isnt the case. I feel that as i will be a small business trading additional to working a fulltime job, i can afford to produce these for a tad less and still offer a high quality, competitively priced vivarium.
I also wish you well on catching up with your orders and delivery problems as i know this isnt your fault and you are trying your best to resolve these issues.

chewy86


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> as i would not have ie 2k to pay for a large order.


That's not really a large order. That's what a dozen vivs, maybe?

I used to know a viv builder in the US where his minimum orders were $100K (ABS moulded plastic), and that's a lot of parts to have to store - which took about 15x the amount of space to store as each viv build was completed.


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## chewy86

I meant financially a big order, for a new small business like myself. Like most/all businesses the full ammount would have to be paid before delivery. But a deposit could be taken, to get the order processed.


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## mrhoyo

Are you going to be selling heating options at cost? Ceramics etc are already cheap to buy so I don't know why anyone would bother buying them off you if they weren't the cheapest around.
I would be interested to see how much you were selling AHS for as I know I can get them cheap straight from Microclimate. 

Have you got anything on paper yet or are you still waiting on a verbal agreement of price? I would have thought that you would want an example of their work before agreeing anything.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

I am selling all heating for cost, as there is no money to be made in it unless you buy in huge bulk. I will get them for very similar to what you could get them for, but why would you want to source your own heating equiptment ie a bulb. When I can send it with your order for the same price and you dont need to bother?
Ahs prices i dont have at present as i am concentrating on ceramic heating as my main heating source. I will get a price for Ahs but if they are expensive, I will leave the cutomer to buy their own. The company still have not agreed the prices, as soon as they do I will post the whole range of prices up for you all to see. In terms of their work i am going to have a prototype built at cost initially to make sure it meets the standards i require. Although i have seen other work they have done, ie Aquariums i still want to see how well they build my product also.

Chewy86.


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## mrhoyo

chewy86 said:


> I am selling all heating for cost, as there is no money to be made in it unless you buy in huge bulk. I will get them for very similar to what you could get them for, but why would you want to source your own heating equiptment ie a bulb. When I can send it with your order for the same price and you dont need to bother?
> Ahs prices i dont have at present as i am concentrating on ceramic heating as my main heating source. I will get a price for Ahs but if they are expensive, I will leave the cutomer to buy their own. The company still have not agreed the prices, as soon as they do I will post the whole range of prices up for you all to see. In terms of their work i am going to have a prototype built at cost initially to make sure it meets the standards i require. Although i have seen other work they have done, ie Aquariums i still want to see how well they build my product also.
> 
> Chewy86.


Sounds good, keep pestering them for some prices!


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## chewy86

I am knocking £75 off his first quote and thats with delivery included. So he is having to really go through his figures and what he can and cant afford to produce these for. Im hoping he can as he has took a good interest in the product and researched a lot into reptile caging.


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## BenjaminBoaz

A remorgage on a property (if you have one) works out cheaper than a business loan. On £20k you'll be looking at approx £50 extra per month rather than £300 per mth. There seem to be a number of companies out there actually asking for money upfront and sadly they have been letting people down. Personaly I don't see a problem with taking a deposit. (even if I new It was covering the cost of the plastic.) then it's in line and I'm waiting on a time. Be realistic, it may take a week to build my order or maybe two but then double that any anyones order before. Then add a few more weeks to be certin. If your ahead or on time excellent ... Keep it up. All im trying to say is don't over estimate how quick you can do things. Or underestimate how long jobs take. Good luck on your venture.


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## chewy86

I dont intend to risk a remortgage on my home for £40 profit per unit. I will however use all my profit from all units, straight back into he business untill i have enough money to expand. If people wish to buy in bulk they will have to be trusting of my business. Either by dealing with me on a smaller order initially or meeting me regarding larger orders, I have been on the forum for a fair while and have traded with other members with no problems at all. If the business really takes off i will have to re-evaluate delivery times but whilst i am building a reputation as a trustworthy, high quality company. Im sure people will order with care as not to risk being let down, as others have let members down before. As i have said i have no overheads or wages to be paid so wont find myself unable to afford for the products to built and let anyone down im living by my means so to speak. Like i say a deposit would only just cover my outlay for the heating equiptments i am making next to nothing per unit, truth be told.

chewy86


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## BenjaminBoaz

Nice one. As said hope all goes well.


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## chewy86

Cheers mate i appreciate the kind words and support.


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## chewy86

Whilst reading the boaphiles website. He has convinced me that, ventilation is much better when its achieved leaving a small gap around the outside of the windows/doors. Instead of just a couple of vent holes at the rear of the viv. This means vivs can be pushed right back against walls and in smaller corners. I am going to use two drop down windows on all sizes of vivs 4ft and above and look at how it would work for the 3ft model. I like this idea as you can go in one side of the viv without the side where the snake is being open when feeding for example. 1+2ft models will need one window as having two would make the windows to small (of course) I will still be putting cabinet windows in my larger arboreal vivs but again drop down in the smaller models.
Heating wise i am still opting for ceramic as prefernce but will also offer an ahs heating option for those who dont like ceramics/bulbs.

Prices will be going up as soon as i get the all clear from the manufacturer.

chewy86.


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## BenjaminBoaz

On the bottom of each viv could u run a strip of plastic batton along the front and sides. Only 5mm thick needed. Then when stacked you them you have room for those that want heats mats to put them and a layer of insulate.


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## chewy86

I have thought of doing this so people could offer a under belly basking spot, but i dont like the idea for a sole heater. Also it worries me if the floor gets too hot and the snake/lizard or whatever occupies the viv burns itself.

Chewy86.


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> Also it worries me if the floor gets too hot and the snake/lizard or whatever occupies the viv burns itself.


That's what thermostats are for. 

But, it's still a good idea to have a gap even if you don't use heatmats. If you're stacking them on top of each other, not having a gap for a bit of airflow is going to increase the transmission of heat to the floor from the ceiling of the viv below, potentially causing the same risk.


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## chewy86

I know, but stats can break and if they do and an animal gets burnt, Fingers will be pointed at my design over the stat failing. As it would be seen as an avoidable risk. I will seperate the vivariums for stacking and also all bulb holders will be hanging from the ceiling and not connected also with heat shields so shouldnt pass too mcu hheat through the floor of the above vivarium.

Chewy86.


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## pollywog

I have to ask have you ever run a company before?

Saying things such as "cheapest and highest quality polypropylene vivarium on the market." is a bit of a wild claim when you've not finalised your design, seen a sample of the product, finalised manufacturing costs, nor trialed and tested the product for a period of time. Have you even sampled the products offered by the competition?

I'd also be concerned that if you're haggling the manufacturer down on the production cost then they're going to start cutting corners so quality is going to suffer and manufacturing times will increase as they will prioritise the work that makes them more profit.

Also having your manufacturer drop-ship the vivs puts you out of the loop; will you be visiting the manufacturer and checking each and every viv before it's shipped or will you be relying on them for quality control? How do you know the manufacturer isn't going to start taking orders direct from the customers they've delivered to thus cutting you out completley?

I wish you luck with your project but I know how hard it is to bring a product to market and would really advise you to take more time and seek professional advise about running a business and how to bring a product to market.


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## chewy86

In the uk (my target market) there is rhino vivs and then once up and running myself, that sell polypropylene vivariums. So if im cheaper than Rhino vivs, i am the cheapest polypropylene vivarium company in the uk. The best is what I aim to be and like i say i have only one competitor in that respect, so only time will tell on that front. I have finalised the main part of the design but as I have stated all along i want to be flexible with the build to accomodate all customers preferances, over just this is my viv range like it or lump it attitude. If the product doesnt work how i want it to, it goes back to the drawing board and things will be changed untill i am happy with it. I am entrusting quality control with the company as it is their reputaion on the line also and they have high standards. (I have seen some of their work)
The profit margin is so small they would not benefit from going it alone, as he is already making profit just by producing them and getting them out of the door. Plus the differance between in profit from what he is doing now and the additional he would get from the hassle of taking orders and dealing with an the business is not worth the bother to him. I am pretty much his smallest contract and so I am in no fear of that happening, there are much more lucrative routes to take if he wanted to steal an idea and customer base.
I have never owned my own business and that is why I am taking things slowly and taking every day as it comes in terms of design and production. I know what i want to produce and how I want to do so. The rest is based on how the product sells. I am sure you are under no illusions that the likes of Rhino vivs and boaphiles to name a couple have their own factory producing just their vivarium line that couldnt possibly pullout or let them down? 

Thank you for your concern and advice.

Chewy86


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> I am entrusting quality control with the company as it is their reputaion on the line also and they have high standards. (I have seen some of their work)


The thing is, it's not their reputation on the line, it's yours. As far as your customers are concerned, they don't know or care who's making them, just that you're selling them your own branded vivs. Their reputation doesn't mean a thing to the people buying the vivs, because none of us know who they are - and if we did, to re-raise the point above, what's to stop people contacting them direct and cutting you out? If somebody contacted them with an order of 20 vivs, they'd probably be able to get a better deal than if they bought them off you directly (which then risks putting your orders and your customers on the backburner).


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## chewy86

This is the risk we all take in business, their is nothing stopping anyone producing anything for themselves. If we all feared competition and failure no one would bother running a business. 

I was initially going to have all orders shipped via myself but again this raised the overall cost of the product, my main aim is to produce these vivariums as cheap as possible so all can afford to own a long lasting vivarium and not have to replace melamine vivariums once they stink/break. 

My point with reputation is if i sell 500 units a year and possibly more and make them atleast £37,500 profit. They then decide to start making poor quality goods and upsetting my customers. They know i will take my business elsewhere. And its not in their best interest to throw away clients in the current climate or anyone for that matter.

The prices i am agreeing with the company are with the mindset that this will be a long lasting contract and not a one off 20 viv order. This is why they is taking his time with their costings, to make sure they can afford to produce them with that in mind. I very much doubt he would offer these prices to such a small order, plus why would he need to when he has me ordering them already. Why rock the boat over such a small ammount to be gained?

chewy86


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## BenjaminBoaz

I think maybe you should just give customers the final prices and not going all the mark ups etc.


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## chewy86

prices will be up asap. All prices will be with delivery and heating equiptment come at an additional cost.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Nice one! Pic's too?


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## chewy86

pics will be up when i recieve the prototype mate.


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## blood and guts

Rhino had compition at one point, they lasted months! The market is to limited with a lot of brand loyalty and from reading a lot of your posts im concerned you dont have much hands on control to ensure quality. 

I wish you well.


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## chewy86

trust me when i say the company i am using to produce these vivariums have been in the trade for many years and already produce similar goods to a very high standard. I would not use and trust them to produce my vivariums for me otherwise. Plus the more involvment i have the more the vivariums will cost, and i want to keep these at a price people can afford, thankyou for your good luck gesture.


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## mrhoyo

I think 500 orders is a bit optimistic, that's pretty much two for each and every working day a year. For a brand new product with no reputation at a high price you'll be lucky to get two orders a week in year one.

Have you even heard when the prototype will be done yet? There's no point in promoting your new venture if you haven't even got an example of what the customer will get.


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## chewy86

the idea of this thread was purely to gauge interest and make sure i designed the product around what reptile keepers wanted. Once i have prices and photos or a tested prototype i will open a thread promoting/advertising the finished product.


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## raptor1

*A little advice*

I have had a look at this thread and for what it is worth decided to give you some input/advice. The great thing about advice....you have a choice..take it or leave it.

You mention you want to retail your vivs so as they are available to everyone in the hobby.” You want to price these at £50 above manufacturing costs.
From personal experience you would then have to get per unit around £75 min.so retail price would be around £125. Which we know is impossible..this is of course if you want to reach your target that is making them so everyone in the hobby will be able to afford them.
Making is £50 per unit sounds great..But in my opinion definitely not feasible...especially as you have to have the vivs made by a company and not manufacturing yourself. For me it is a recipe for a disaster (for the customers – and yourself)

Scenario...As you say this will not be a full time job for you, “ just pocket money”. So in reality you cannot have the passion or drive to make this business a success. In my opinion and experience you have to give 100% of your time and passion to a new business to make it work - that is gospel. If you start to have a difficult customer (and believe me you will) or the plastic fabricators decide to increase there costs, or decide not to manufacture them no more or..go bust - It is so easy for you to basically walk away from your business ,after all you have nothing to loose?. You still have your full time job ,mortgage gets paid etc. Whereas other competitors, well they HAVE to get it right, they DEPEND on their business. – It is their LIVLEYHOOD, they can’t just walk away like you could.
Your manufacturer may be taking your orders on now because of the recession, they are probably like most businesses glad of any work, but what happens if they get a very large order for other fabrication ? Because of the viv manufacturing is a very very small business and bringing so little revenue in to them, do you think they will turn the larger order away ...or yours?


_“The intention is to make a little bit of pocket money additional to my job, out of hours so to speak and supply the hobby with a quality product at a reasonable near on production price._
_Reason being i know myself that i cant afford the models already available on the market or cant warrant the extra cost, as they seem to be treble and quadruple melamine prices at present._
_For me just being the cheapest and hopefully with time and work the best quality vivarium on the market thats enough for me. Plus with them being made from polypropylene and acrylic, they will last a lifetime and wont become a health hazard to you or your reptiles.”_

So many things I worry about in your quote above... Well like I have all ready said . _You say you just want a bit of “pocket money”_, so that tells me there is not going to be 100% customer service, there can’t be. You only will do it out of hours..so that means I would guess, dealing with your customers, your manufacturer, replying to emails, forums, phone calls, in the hours between 6.00pm ?? and the weekend. To be honest I would think it unprofessional dealing with customers at these times.
You then say - You _cant afford the models already available on the market or cant warrant the extra cost as they seem to be treble and quadruple melamine prices at present._
_Well, as you now have seen_..this is because of the manufacturing cost, labour and materials –simple. Believe me, people with this frame of mind *NEVER* buy any plastic vivs, They look at like this..a 4x2x2 Melamine £80 Plastic £260. They do not see it for what it is, so you are trying to gain a market which is not there...I know.

Then you say ..
_For me just being the cheapest and hopefully with time and work the best quality vivarium on the market that’s enough for me._
Well, it would not be enough for me...I would want to have a great reputation too. After all, I would like to know if I were a customer, If I have a problem , Am I likely to get it sorted easily enough.


Also....Guarantee..you cannot really give more than a 12 month guarantee(if that) on any of your vivs..Whereas Rhinos give 5 year....I have actually repaired vivs for free caused by accidental damage). You cannot offer this simply because, it would not be practical for you and you have not got the skill to carry it out yourself.

_“I have got the prices that i want to sell them at but the company are working out figures at their end to see if they can profit from these prices_.

_An example sale price -_

_1200x600x450 viv with delivery (No heating) £225_

_but again they may tell me the prices im proposing are not worth their involvement and time. As i say most/all other companys i quoted with wanted double what im offering and most almost triple_.”
 
So. At present, you are going to be only £35 cheaper than your competitors
Well, I am sure you will not gain any customers at all if you are only £35 cheaper...Why?..well
We all ready have a reputable established company to buy from, that simple.
So even if you do go ahead you realise that your *AND* the customers are totally dependent on this *ONE* company...Like I have all ready said, what if they decide not to manufacture your vivs anymore? What if – like so many other company’s go bust?.
..you need to have at least 3 other company’s who are willing to do these vivs at the same price..Otherwise *YOU AND YOUR CUSTOMERS* are held over a barrel.


“_I am selling all heating for cost, as there is no money to be made in it unless you buy in huge bulk”_

 I am not sure if you mean..you are buying in from your local reptile shop or Wholesaler?
Well I can tell you if it is at wholesale cost you will be selling at, wholesalers will stop supplying you and who can blame them.

_My point with reputation is if i sell 500 units a year and possibly more and make them atleast £37,500 profit. They then decide to start making poor quality goods and upsetting my customers. They know i will take my business elsewhere. And its not in their best interest to throw away clients in the current climate or anyone for that matter_.

In your dreams! No way on earth will you get anywhere near that number of units. (not unless you are selling them at around £150 per unit).I would guess more like 150 – 200. Then probably halve that because of your competitors. Like I have said...the company will drop you no problem, if they get a larger order coming in.

Finally I am not suggesting this will happen, but what if.....your competitors decide to slash their prices and undercut you?????

Best regards
Alan


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## Speeple

Good advice. I do disagree with this though:



> you have to give 100% of your time and passion to a new business to make it work - that is gospel


Might be true to this specific sector, but there examples of global companies that were once somebody's pet project.


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## chewy86

To respond to your main points - 

cost - £225 is with delivery and Rhino vivs are £290 with delivery so is actually £65 (quite a big saving) 4x2x2 melamine vivs are not £80 also, well i havnt seen one that cheap anyway. My vivariums will be approx double the price of a melamine viv but will also pay for itself wothin the first 2-3years when a customer would have been replacing their melamine viv as is was beginning to smell and rot.

passion - Although initially I am not daft enough to quit my secure full time occupation in the present financial climate, to persue a full time business. I am available to answer emails at work (ie now as i respond to you) Once/if (im a realist) the business takes off this will become a full time venture and i will leave my current employer. Although i have a fulltime job to fall back on my business is not something im setting up to fail at and is my way of changing my career path. That is my reasoning to have 100% interest in my business as i dont wish to continue in my present occupation.

Guarantee - Myself and the company who are producing these vivariums for me will have a guarantee in place for any manufacturing faults. And i credit Rhino vivs for repairing vivs that the customer broke themselves as i dont believe any other manufacturer of any kind does that or insurance companies wouldnt be required.

Undercut - Based on my competitors have ing higher overheads and more owners requiring a fulltime wage i very much doubt that will/could happen. Also i know how little this large company is making per unit so again would find it hard to believe they could be made much cheaper whilst still making a living.

Figures and quotes - The figures and quotes in which you highlight were just hypothetical examples and in no way reflect targets i set myself annually or long term. Only time will tell how things will progress in the future with the business?

You are right if things dont work out i can walk away without being jobless and in debt, but all customers vivs will be completed and guarantee's in place so this is not a worry for anyone but myself.

Delivery - I am also in talks with the company to charge a one off charge for delivery so if someone orders ie 10 of my 1200x600x450 vivariums they will end up An additional £350 cheaper than Rhino vivs and thats after the £650 they have already saved. 10 vivs delivered for £1900 im not sure what Rhino vivs do on discounts, so cannot compare unless you care to answer using the same example?

A bit of healthy competition never did anyone any harm. Also as a side note i thought you sold Rhino vivs and no longer own the business? (i could be wrong thats why i say thought)

chewy86


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> 4x2x2 melamine vivs are not £80 also, well i havnt seen one that cheap anyway.


Volly's are, and Surrey Pet Supplies do the Vivexotics 48x24x20 for 80 quid too with only £6.99 delivery


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## chewy86

I stand corrected, £80 for a 4x2x2 + delivery from volly's so £100 all in? With delivery included as i say it is pretty much double the price for the same size p.p vivarium. But that will last 5x aslong. 
Im in no doubt that some will still buy melamine vivs as they are cheaper and replace them every couple of years. Im also sure there will be some that make them last 5years or more and put up with the smell and warping. My main target are those who are looking long term and dont want to have to replace their vivariums every couple of years plus want the best quality, healthy housing for their reptile.

As a side note do you all feel that £65 per unit is not a worth while saving as i would be over the moon with that sort of saving myself. Plus free shipping on additional vivariums on bulk orders.


Chewy86.


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## Caz

While I wish you well a few small points.

*Offering heating and lighting at 'cost.'* Pointless.
If you're offering at wholesale prices then when the wholesaler gets wind they'll stop supplying you, then your purchase incentive will cease.

Best way would be to offer an 'all in' price. So you're not detailing a viv/electrics price. The down side to this are the numerous electrical regulations for suppliers/manufacturers.. Are you supplying them for the customer to fit? Are you supplying detailed instructions as to placement of heaters/lighting etc in your product?

It will up your product liability insurance for sure. (I'll assume you have costed in your insurance.)

IMHO leave it to the customer to purchase their own heating/lighting.


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## chewy86

I must admit with the prices people are selling heating equiptment for at the moment, i did think of doing just that. When i said cost i meant rrp minimum over trying to make additional profit as others do. I would not step on wholesalers toes as you say that wouldnt go down too well.

chewy86.


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## Caz

chewy86 said:


> I must admit with the prices people are selling heating equiptment for at the moment, i did think of doing just that. When i said cost i meant rrp minimum over trying to make additional profit as others do. I would not step on wholesalers toes as you say that wouldnt go down too well.
> 
> chewy86.


 
Thats better. So you'll be selling for the rrp. So you will make a (small) profit from the heating etc.

Just out of interest how much did your product liability insurance cost?


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## ExoticInsectsUK

Sounds like a good idea but buying in bulk amounts may help lower the price if your to have a chance.
Don't forget the amount that will get lost in post or damaged you may not get insured (same as exos).

I have been thinking of this also but have not found a cheap enough company even overseas when you add shipping its a bit steep.

(500 vivs) at twice the price of a normal one in these times when most people are low on cash its not going to happen unless you set up a deal with a wholesale company.

But if a large order from your supplier will bring down the price i will go in on it with you as i have a range of products coming out next year.


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## chewy86

I am informed that any problems with the product (vivarium) is covered under the manufacturers insurance. But as you say i will have to cover myself for any fitment of electricals, although i believe if just supplied again the manufacturer is liable for any problems. so it may be best to leave heating/electricals fitment to the customer and concentrate on the vivariums and suplying of equiptment.


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## chewy86

I have discussed this with the company and explained that although i will not be buying in one off bulk. Orders will be small and regular (due to all orders being customised where possible) The way i have managed to avoid crazy p&p prices is by using the companies own delivery service within the price. 

Drop me a pm to discuss any further involvement with the project. I have already had two shops enquire also about stocking the vivariums and using them for their own stock in store.

Chewy86


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## Caz

chewy86 said:


> *I am informed that any problems with the product (vivarium) is covered under the manufacturers insurance*. But as you say i will have to cover myself for any fitment of electricals, although i believe if just supplied again the manufacturer is liable for any problems. so it may be best to leave heating/electricals fitment to the customer and concentrate on the vivariums and suplying of equiptment.


You as the 'retailer' (and also the designer in this case) will take a large portion of the legal brunt if there is a problem/accident caused by the viv.
Best to enquire with a solicitor re product liability insurance and relative consumer law before selling any.



chewy86 said:


> I have discussed this with the company and explained that although i will not be buying in one off bulk. Orders will be small and regular (due to all orders being customised where possible) The way i have managed to avoid crazy p&p prices is by using the companies own delivery service within the price.
> 
> Drop me a pm to discuss any further involvement with the project. *I have already had two shops enquire also about stocking the vivariums* and using them for their own stock in store.
> 
> Chewy86


Shops usually work on a 50-100% (although 100% is rare at the moment) mark up. 
How are you going to be able to supply to shops to sell on if your margin is only £50 per viv and you are supplying direct to the public also?
Needs thinking about.


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## BenjaminBoaz

4ft sizes will be your most popular.


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## chewy86

that is the main reason i gave 4ft prices as an example. im sure with the rise in retic and burm keepers the 6ft will also sell well.


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## chewy86

With animals you find those % arnt far off but with vivs there isnt the scope to do so or shop wouldnt be selling 4ft vivs for £80 as there is no way suppliers can make vivs for £40-50 and make profit. 
Before a viv is sold all avenues will have been checked and everything will be in place. 

Thanks for your advice and concern caz

chewy86


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## Caz

chewy86 said:


> With animals you find those % arnt far off but with vivs there isnt the scope to do so or shop wouldnt be selling 4ft vivs for £80 as there is no way suppliers can make vivs for £40-50 and make profit.
> Before a viv is sold all avenues will have been checked and everything will be in place.
> 
> Thanks for your advice and concern caz
> 
> chewy86


No problem - not trying to put a downer on it - just don't want you to fall foul further down the line after spending more of your money.
Just as a point re price a local shop near me can buy in 4x2x18 melamine vivs for £58 inc'.


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## BenjaminBoaz

just remember vat goes up next yr :bash:


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## chewy86

you are correct a mundo vat goes up next year but it goes up for everybody though. plus i wont be producing these till next year so prices will be as of next year hopefully. If so im sure that will put me a tad bit cheaper than others again.

and £60 for that viv is a god price, dont know how they make the money on them caz. (not the shop they are raking it in making £40-50 a pop)

chewy86.


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## Wills

chewy86 said:


> you are correct a mundo vat goes up next year but it goes up for everybody though. plus i wont be producing these till next year so prices will be as of next year hopefully. If so im sure that will put me a tad bit cheaper than others again.
> 
> and £60 for that viv is a god price, dont know how they make the money on them caz. (not the shop they are raking it in making £40-50 a pop)
> 
> chewy86.


i used to be able to buy 4' vivs for £38 but dont start slagging the shops off you will have no idea how expensive it is to run a shop


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## BenjaminBoaz

chewy86 said:


> you are correct a mundo vat goes up next year but it goes up for everybody though. plus i wont be producing these till next year so prices will be as of next year hopefully. If so im sure that will put me a tad bit cheaper than others again.
> 
> and £60 for that viv is a god price, dont know how they make the money on them caz. (not the shop they are raking it in making £40-50 a pop)
> 
> chewy86.


 still a pain in the ass though, especialy with raised fuel costs at the moment due to bad weather. im sure u know exactly what your doing. :2thumb:


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## chewy86

i can only imagine how hard running a reptile shop could be mate. I have nothing bad to say about shop owners. Now that is cheap though surely jus the materials cost that atleast


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## chewy86

vat in general is a pain neva mind 2.5% increases.


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## ExoticInsectsUK

Hello it is a good idea but not a new one the price for a 4ft viv would need to be £160 rrp to have a chance at making a dent in the melamine vivs
+ it would be a good idea to have some testing models in a pet shop for 6 months or so to test them as plastic can bend, melt, & give off odors where the heat is & could harm a pet.
You say they could last years BUT you don't know that for sure as they have not yet been tested.
The company you are getting to build them will not insure them for the purpose your making them for.
They will only insure there work once someone drills holes in it or alters it in anyway (which they will) you will find like most things its not insured under manufactures guarantee.
you would need to ask for professional advise so you can back your self with everything in writing which will not be cheap.

If you want any help pm me i could be involved but only it there price can drop to £60-£80 per unit if not these can be import for not much more & have been tested.


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## BenjaminBoaz

The plastic manufactures would know what plastic to supply due to the temperatures being suitable for this kind of work. Polypropylene with UV inhibitors I expect.


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## BenjaminBoaz

I really think prices shouldn't be discussed here. People will be expecting you to hold to a said price which u may not want. If trade prices are also open to public viewing it can also lead to issues. Maybe he doesn't want to sell through reptile shops. Maybe he does. I'm just thinking that if I know the trade price there is no way I'd buy from a shop. Sorry if im in the wrong, just not good business practice in my eyes. Final pic and prices for standard sizes is all that's needed please. (trying to be helpful)


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## ExoticInsectsUK

The op has spoke about prices from the start.
It does not matter what he pays the manufacture as there will be much more costs involved.
Everybody knows people make money when selling anything (chip shops charge £1.20p for 2-3 potato's & we still buy them) so there is no problem & at the moment this is a discussion and way off production.
I am sure people will still pay if its what they want.

The plastic manufactures would know what plastic to supply BUT cant say it will be 100% safe without testing.That would be stupid.
If they will great:2thumb: but make sure its legal & in writing & is insured even if the company go's bankrupt.Ltd company's can go bankrupt & open a new Ltd company the same day so its best to have your own insurance.
You cant just trust what people say always back it up in writing on company paper with a signature and legal witness present.


----------



## chewy86

as i have said all along prices are extremely cheap. The materials cost a lot before the fabricators charge for labour i am chargin £50 additional to cost. (cost to me) shop discounts would be no better than anyone else buying in bulk. I cant sell them for free but can discount when im garunteed 10+ vivas. In terms of sales herptek and rhino vivs to name a couple do alright so im sure ill do fine selling an equal product for quite a bit less.


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> shop discounts would be no better than anyone else buying in bulk.


You probly won't be selling any to shops then. They'd never sell one.


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## chewy86

in terms of safety. All tests and insurances needed will be dealt with prior to entering the market. But im sure that if p.p had any problems other p.p viv makers would have had them and they havnt.


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## chewy86

its up to shops to decide but if a single 4x2x2 costs £225 delivered off me and a shop orders 10 vivs working out at 180-190 a viv they can make 45-50 profit and the customer doesnt have to order through me or wait for their viv to be made and delivered before taking there new snake home. Prices are examples only.


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## Kaouthia

No, if it costs £225 delivered from you, and you sell it to the shop at £180-190, after they add 20% VAT (which they'll be legally required to do if vat registered), they're not making anything if they want to sell at the same price as yourself - in fact, they're losing money as that storage/shelf space is being taken up when it could be used for products that actually make money.


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## BenjaminBoaz

It would be exactly the same plastic that other palastic vivs are made of. Has it not proven itself already to be good for use? 

Yeah I know he's decided to inclued prices from the start. Wasn't dissin anyone.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Kaouthia said:


> No, if it costs £225 delivered from you, and you sell it to the shop at £180-190, after they add 20% VAT (which they'll be legally required to do if vat registered), they're not making anything if they want to sell at the same price as yourself - in fact, they're losing money as that storage/shelf space is being taken up when it could be used for products that actually make money.


Something like that.
'Mistakes are better made behind closed doors'


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## chewy86

Bad example used. I still think a shop could make a small profit on these by selling them for customer conveniance. The fact is a large portion of the reptile keepers who buy from shops and not direct from the viv builders and breeders, will pay £120-130 for a 4ft wooden viv and know no differant. And similar money for a hatchling royal. Plus people go in shops to buy a pet and want is there and then, this makes it very possible that people will pay a tad extra to have the goods there and then. My point is not everyone is as clued up as a lot of the rfuk users and people more into the hobbie as a whole.

Like you say p.p fabricators know everything there is to know about the materials they work with and also if problems were there to be found they would have been with similar viv brands already on the market.

This thread as i have said before is to let people know about the product and give hobbyists the chance to have their say on what the design should contain. I also wanted to be honest from the start about profits and production as i feel people assume, that there is lots of money being made at their expense where it isnt. Some may find this a bit unorthadox but this is how i wish to be with the business open and honest from start to finish.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Tis cool with me

Can they weld plastic runners underneath like I mentioned earlier? Would this be at extra costs?


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## chewy86

The ventilation strips? 

If so im sure they can be added. As soon as he gets back to me i will enquire. To be honest contact has been reduced while he calculates everything and discusses the deal with those involved, I dont want to get on his nerves, too much.

chewy86.


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## BenjaminBoaz

I have a load of rhino's and do find the gap around doors let in good airflow.


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## chewy86

Well if it works well on boaphiles and rhino's im sure thats the best option for my vivs also. Adding up all input from this thread people want to pay less for a viv identical to rhino vivs plus have the option of sliding doors. I will set to work at making both those things happen and at the best price possible. 

chewy86.


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## chewy86

Looking at efficiancy and pricing for heating options the ahs heaters keep winning me over. What do you all think of them and would that be a prefered option over ceramic bulbs or not?


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## Speeple

chewy86 said:


> Looking at efficiancy and pricing for heating options the ahs heaters keep winning me over. What do you all think of them and would that be a prefered option over ceramic bulbs or not?


I don't mind them, also, they typically get fixed to the side of a vivarium so structurally this will reduce warping on the ceiling, plus the vivs could be stacked directly on top of each other without much worry about heat transfer to the floor of the viv above.


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## chewy86

After talking to microclimate today I feel that there are lots of advantages to the ahs heaters. Price, efficiancy, reptile safety, long lasting and also reduce the chances of heat damage. For these reasons I am only going to offer ahs heaters with my vivs with guards. (Although microclimate assure me guards are not essential, due to their built in safety trip switch)

Chewy86


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## mrhoyo

No updates?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

Nothing at the moment mate. Waiting to have prototype built in jan when company return back to work. Plus sorting business registration and insurances and what not.


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## chewy86

I have decided to have two prices per viv size in the range. One price will be for just the viv and welded heat plate. (to screw ahs heaters and guards to) and a second price for the above plus either a 250w or 500w ahs heater and guard fitted. Both prices will have p&p included and hopefully if you order more than one unit a discounted price can be arranged for delivery, depending on numbers and weights. 

The prototype is being built from the 4th of january and will be a 1500x600x450 fitted with a 500w ahs heater with guard. (on to the welded heat plate) Once tested i will be using this unit for my retic, with lots of photos for you all to see.
I will then be offering the first few vivs for sale, if you wish to get an order in for these I wouldnt hang around as I have had crazy ammounts of initial interest for these vivariums by pm and some on this thread. 

Sorry thats all i have untill we can confirm build times and final costings for these. But wanted to keep you updated on how things are moving along and where Im heading with the business.

Chewy86.


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## Kaouthia

Where in the viv is this heat plate located?


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## chewy86

I am fitting the plate to suit the microclimate guidelines for most efficiant heating. so the ahs heater will be 4cm from viv floor on on the left hand wall in the centre.

Chewy86


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## chewy86

I am playing around with some ideas for safely fixing each viv together to stop them being able to be moved by accident and even fall off the stack. As they are light weight and easilly moved with a accidental nudge. The manufacturer seems to feel as countersunk boly through the floor of the viv and into the ceiling of the viv below will be the strongest and safest way. What do you think of this idea and do you have anything that you think would work as well but more pleasing to the eye?

chewy86


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## geckodelta

Hiya, so have you got rough price's yet?? eg how much would an 8x4x4 cost and what ahs heater etc would that require


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## BenjaminBoaz

chewy86 said:


> I am playing around with some ideas for safely fixing each viv together to stop them being able to be moved by accident and even fall off the stack. As they are light weight and easilly moved with a accidental nudge. The manufacturer seems to feel as countersunk boly through the floor of the viv and into the ceiling of the viv below will be the strongest and safest way. What do you think of this idea and do you have anything that you think would work as well but more pleasing to the eye?
> 
> chewy86


Don't like the sound of holes in the bottom/top of viv. Possible chance of leek? Spilt liquid could get between vivs or into one below. 
I put rubber sticky pads (3"x3") on the bottom of mine which works fine. Could you not supply something like that? The whole bottom could be covered but that may be costly. 
I still think you should put a runner along the front bottom and sides so heat mats can be used if required. Not everyone may want an abs fitted. So have 3 prices? My thoughts if it helps.


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## chewy86

my only fear with this is how do you use sticky pads if there are spacing runners preventing the two vivs sticking? Love the sticky pad idea though mate. Plus i fear heat mats may be used ineficiantly and people blame my product and not their misjudgement in heating option ie in a cool roon. Just wanted to cover all bases, fool proof if you like


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## BenjaminBoaz

chewy86 said:


> my only fear with this is how do you use sticky pads if there are spacing runners preventing the two vivs sticking? Love the sticky pad idea though mate. Plus i fear heat mats may be used ineficiantly and people blame my product and not their misjudgement in heating option ie in a cool roon. Just wanted to cover all bases, fool proof if you like


 the runners i was on about are the spacers (check out base of a rhino) if they are 2 inches wide they can have rubber on them and it will be on 3 sides most of the length. simples. works well.


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## BenjaminBoaz

understand the mat issue. i wouldnt offer the mats for sale and only supply ahs as u say. just some people may ask for them without heating and want to use their own mats. 

Its a great idea. There isnt much comp out there is plenty of room for another company. people are looking for good sensible vivs and as we know 'plastic is the way to go'. good pricing will mean more orders im sure. 
Could you think about plastic racks for hatchlings/small snakes? pm me if you like.


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## chewy86

pm'd you mate.


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## chewy86

thanks again for your helpful input animal storey.


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## BenjaminBoaz

looking forward to seeing more people getting the chance to keep their animals in better enclosures.


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## Kaouthia

Still looking forward to seeing a prototype, a plan, a 3d software mockup, something.


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## leecb0

Hi around 10 or more years ago i had a company make me some 2x2x2 boxes in the style of your normal vivarium and fitted polycarbonate sliding doors. The cost was around 15 quid per box at the time. I wanted to try and find a better alternative to melamine vivs and glass tanks for small arborial vipers. Any way i dont use them anymore the material above the heat source which was a ceramic trough heater started to wharp as the amount of heat above the material reaches the point that the polypropolene starts to soften and depending on the type of material used the melting point is around 250 degrees ok it might not actually melt but it does soften and depending on its structure may sag. I went back to the guys who made them for me and spoke to them about certain problems and basically was told that the job i wanted it to do it proberbly wasnt the right material for the job and they were interested in the results i found using the. The other problem is polypropolyne can suffer from UV exposure which along with the problems with using heat sorce will degrade the material. I have spoke of this before in relation to another manufacturer. IMO they have a place but only if you are using them in a well heated room with a good constant ambiant heat. Im all for new ideas and enterprises but i speak from experience. Know of a few people who use a similar type of cage and are not as impressed as the thought they were.


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## chewy86

kaouthia I would also like to see a prototype I have everything ready to go but had to wait for the manufacturer to return to work in the new year and get themselves sorted to spend time basically learning the best/quickest method of producing my vivarium plus testing it was strong enough to take a stack. Once i have the prototype i will have photos put up on the forum for all to see with definate prices for the range.

leecbo thanks for stopping by, I know all about the issues of polypropylene and this i s why i have gone for ahs heaters as the unit gets nowhere near those temps, so this issue is neither here nor there in that respect. thats why i avoided ceramics bulbs. Also regarding uv damage the polyproplylene used has an additive in it to prevent this issue also and the manufacturer im using has had water tanks made from the same material out in the elements for 30years with no sign of degration.


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## BenjaminBoaz

U can get PP with UV inhibiters in it. I use to work for an injection moulding company and all our tote/carry boxes were safe against fading and becoming brittle due to this being in the plastic.


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## chewy86

All i know, as i am not and have not worked in the platic industry is that the guy who owns the company has been doing this job for many many years, and owned his own business for most of them. He assures me that the material used is more than fit for purpose the only issue was with the initia; plan of using cermaic bulbs as the cermaic bulb holders would be getting too hot and could/would make the vivs warp. I decided this wasnt worth the risk and also after researching heating methods found ahs heater to be a good all rounder.

chewy86


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## leecb0

An AHS heater IS a ceramic trough heater held inside a box. There fore as you said this will warp the plastic. the people i used to make mine were also people who made water tanks and such items proberbly just the same as the guy you are using.


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## chewy86

The microcliamte ahs heater isnt just a ceramic, the housing is insulated so that it is safe to touch the metal, unlike a ceramic bulb holder getting extremely hot near the surface this isnt the case with the insulated unit used. They even advise you not to bother with a guard as they have built the unit with a safety trip which turns the heater off if the casing goes above a set temp but i would feel safer with a guard just incase. I wouldnt want any snakes getting injured or worse.

Hope this helps to put your mind at rest.

Chewy86.


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## kelboy

chewy86 said:


> The microcliamte ahs heater isnt just a ceramic, the housing is insulated so that it is safe to touch the metal, unlike a ceramic bulb holder getting extremely hot near the surface this isnt the case with the insulated unit used. They even advise you not to bother with a guard as they have built the unit with a safety trip which turns the heater off if the casing goes above a set temp but i would feel safer with a guard just incase. I wouldnt want any snakes getting injured or worse.
> 
> Hope this helps to put your mind at rest.
> 
> Chewy86.


I wouldn't trust Microclimate on that. The units DO get VERY hot. Way too hot to touch and well above the 70 degree trip out they supposedly use. That's not to say that they're not very good, I do like mine, guarded, but I wouldn't trust them in a plastic enclosure. My choice would be the tried and tested RepRad or similar, using a heat plate on the roof of the viv.


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## chewy86

im using a 12mm p.p plate thats welded to the side wall and guarded. Safe for the snakd and p.p warping temps are quite high plus the heat shouldnt transfer to the viv itself anyway. I will know for sure after ive tested the prototype, if it doesnt work ill go another route either mat or radiator as you describe.


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## kelboy

chewy86 said:


> im using a 12mm p.p plate thats welded to the side wall and guarded. Safe for the snakd and p.p warping temps are quite high plus the heat shouldnt transfer to the viv itself anyway. I will know for sure after ive tested the prototype, if it doesnt work ill go another route either mat or radiator as you describe.


That's what I'd do in your shoes. There is an air gap of around 5mm or so at the back of the unit, so that may help, but I can't say I've measured the temps back there. If customers wish to use a radiant heat panel mounted to the roof, would you offer a plate there as an alternative option?


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## chewy86

I certainly would mate, i would just need a measurement for the reprad and guard and ill have it made. Although i think an ahs on the side wall should be better heating option.


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## BenjaminBoaz

The habitat reptile radiator is a brilliant bit of kit. To be able to mount these in the top would be better. You would need to screw it into plate you mentioned. That's whAt I was going to use in my 6th. But I found the heat mats did the trick and didn't put one in. I would still allow for a slight gap with a few washers and also use a guard.


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## BenjaminBoaz

They are also good to clean and if your spraying out an enclosure are sealed. 
Really worth checking this out.'these connected to a Microclimate pulse state would be tops.


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## Kaouthia

kelboy said:


> My choice would be the tried and tested RepRad or similar, using a heat plate on the roof of the viv.


That would be mine too, which is why I asked about the position of the mounting plate, but having it on the back or the side of the viv is no good to me for reptile radiators.


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## Kaouthia

chewy86 said:


> I certainly would mate, i would just need a measurement for the reprad and guard and ill have it made. Although i think an ahs on the side wall should be better heating option.


Not sure about the guard off-hand, but I do have a reprad sitting on the desk next to me.

Just measured it and it's exactly 310x210mm.

Height of the unit is 34mm and the supplied mounting screws protude exactly 10mm through the top side of the unit (the side that gets mounted to the ceiling of the viv).

The centre point for the 4 holes for the mounting screws are 8mm from the sides of each corner and the holes themselves are 4mm in diameter.

Hope this helps.


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## chewy86

thanks for that kaouthia i will have to purchase one and an appropriate guard, to give them a test. Would you say this option would heat better than the ahs and be easier on the wallet? with the cost of the stat aswell? Im all for saving people money and making the viv the most efficiant.

Chewy86.


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## BenjaminBoaz

God I'm good! 
They are better than the ahs and better looking, take up less room and one would heat a four foot perfectly. You can always add a second for larger size vivs.


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## Kaouthia

I think so. The Reptile Radiator and Habistat pulse stat from SPS was only about 80 quid altogether shipped.

Depending on the ambient temperature of the room the viv's in, it might not be quite so effective for vivs larger than 4ft, but I'm very happy with mine in 4ft vivs.


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## Kaouthia

animalstorey said:


> God I'm good!


I mentioned 'em back on Page 10 :whistling2:


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## BenjaminBoaz

Do u need to proved stats for the customer?
Microclimate stats are better than habistats in my opinion. I have many of both types but just bought another 10 DL2s cos I like them so much!


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## mrhoyo

animalstorey said:


> Do u need to proved stats for the customer?
> Microclimate stats are better than habistats in my opinion. I have many of both types but just bought another 10 DL2s cos I like them so much!


I agree that Microclimate are better but I prefer b1me because they can be used with any heater and don't have the irritating alarm when they're heating up on a morning.


Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## BenjaminBoaz

Mine don't go off all in the morning! Sound like the heat source isn't heating the enclosure quick enough. The b models are just as good.


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## mrhoyo

animalstorey said:


> Mine don't go off all in the morning! Sound like the heat source isn't heating the enclosure quick enough. The b models are just as good.


I think it goes off if the temperature isn't at the setting required after 5 minutes. Not great for us lizard keepers, I wouldn't like to have my ambients go from room temperature up to 30c instantly. That would mean my basking spots (and the lizards on them) would be going from about 20c to 50c in under 5 minutes!
The dls are great for steady temperature keeping i.e incubators though.

Can't wait to see some prices and a prototype on these, I hope the wait will be worth it.


Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## BenjaminBoaz

mrhoyo said:


> I think it goes off if the temperature isn't at the setting required after 5 minutes. Not great for us lizard keepers, I wouldn't like to have my ambients go from room temperature up to 30c instantly. That would mean my basking spots (and the lizards on them) would be going from about 20c to 50c in under 5 minutes!
> The dls are great for steady temperature keeping i.e incubators though.
> 
> Can't wait to see some prices and a prototype on these, I hope the wait will be worth it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


That's one he'll of a drop? Why cant you leave the temps the same unless breeding? No wonder you alarm goes off! The cold end must be freezing. Even the settings on the ME only drop by 12 degrees c. There shouldnt be Ny need to turn full heating off at night. 
The alarm goes off after a certain time if the heat isn't sufficient. If your room was warm and the stat left on then the stat would just turn itself off quicker. Sorry but something isn't right.


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## mrhoyo

What's a hell of a drop? It would be unhealthy for me to be leaving halogen bulbs on all night at 50c when the little chaps are sleeping.
Ambients in the warm end only drop by about 10c overnight with the heating off, even less for the cool end because they're only at 24c to start with.
I don't use the dls with bulbs anymore, they just don't work well with a tight beam.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## BenjaminBoaz

But the lizards arnt sitting at the 50c. The lead should be where you want the right temp to be and the heat should be content unless u set a night drop on the dl2me. And then the heat sources should be able to heat the temp back up within the five mins. Um and if your using lights u shouldn't be using a pulse stat which is what the dl2 is.

What ever at the end of the day if you use the stat correctly there should be an alarm. Alarms are there to tell u something isn't right.


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## chewy86

To be honest i dont have to supply heating but if i do i can sell them a bit cheaper for the customer to benefit. ie im looking at selling 500w ahs heaters at £90 delivered with the vivarium, rrp is £120 and most sell £100-110. If i start offering differant companies products i wont be able to get them as cheap, where as if i buy large ammounts of ahs heaters during the year i will get them discounted. My only fear is i can only find 75w models (highest) in reprads and im sure with a 6ft viv that would mean 2 of them on a stat? meaning they would work out allot more expensive than the equivalent ahs setup plus an additional or larger heat panel, again adding cost to the customer.
That being said i will get the measurements for them with a guard and have the panel fitted and also send the specialist p.p screws with the setup, so the customer can fit the heating on receipt of their vivarium.

Chewy86


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## chewy86

I have never used microclimate but i like the fact to turn them up you have to use a screwdriver or the like. This prevents accidental temp alterations and also makes them more child proof. Plus i can also get a better deal on them with already ordering a sizable number of ahs heaters through them. 

Glad to hear others agree with my thinking.

Chewy86.


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## BenjaminBoaz

I have to keep checking the habistats as the kids have turned the knobs in the past


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## mrhoyo

animalstorey said:


> But the lizards arnt sitting at the 50c. The lead should be where you want the right temp to be and the heat should be content unless u set a night drop on the dl2me. And then the heat sources should be able to heat the temp back up within the five mins. Um and if your using lights u shouldn't be using a pulse stat which is what the dl2 is.
> 
> What ever at the end of the day if you use the stat correctly there should be an alarm. Alarms are there to tell u something isn't right.


What are you talking about? Who said I was using a pulse stat? Who said the heat should be back up to full temperature after 5 minutes?
If I've got my thermostat set to reach a MAXIMUM warm end ambient temperature of 30c during the day and I want that to be 20c during the night how am I using anything incorrectly?
The dl1 beeps to let you know it's on and then beeps if the target temperature hasn't been reached within 5 minutes. That's great if you're wanting to keep something nice and steady like a tropical snake but not ideal for me with the thermostat really only there as a safety precaution for when the room gets warm.
Why would I need to keep the heating on all night? Do you think the Yatir Mountains in Israel are a constant 50c at night?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## mrhoyo

Knocking a Habistat can be a disaster, a Microclimate will still be safe and sound

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## chewy86

My thoughts exactly plus i like the fact that they have magic eye features in the lower models and not like others who charge the earth for such a feature with night time drops and what not.

Prototype is in production now so hopefully all will sorted very soon. That is if the heating method works and im happy with the overall design if not it will have to be modified accordingly.

Chewy86


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## mrhoyo

chewy86 said:


> My thoughts exactly plus i like the fact that they have magic eye features in the lower models and not like others who charge the earth for such a feature with night time drops and what not.
> 
> Prototype is in production now so hopefully all will sorted very soon. That is if the heating method works and im happy with the overall design if not it will have to be modified accordingly.
> 
> Chewy86


Pics ASAP, even without testing.
Clive is probably more willing to do you deals than Habistat too


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## BenjaminBoaz

Well all I can say is buy another thermostat that dosent beep. I use b2me and dl2me and never have a problem with being or the alarms going off on the dl. ( unless something was wrong)


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## Kaouthia

animalstorey said:


> Microclimate stats are better than habistats in my opinion.


I'll get back to you on that one. I used to use Helix stats, but you can't get those in the UK. I've been using Microclimate since moving back here, but picked up three of these Habistat pulses to give them a go and see what they're like.


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## mrhoyo

animalstorey said:


> Well all I can say is buy another thermostat that dosent beep. I use b2me and dl2me and never have a problem with being or the alarms going off on the dl. ( unless something was wrong)


Have you even read my posts? I use the b1mes now, the dl1 has been relegated to incubator duty.


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## chewy86

Clive has been very good to me so far to be honest. I will put photographs up once i recieve the viv as anything else wont be appearance changes but will be design improvements either structuraly or heating methods.

Chewy86.


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## loxocemus

im not sure if this is any help to u but iv had experience with both ahs and reptile radiator.

when i first read of the ahs it was all high techy wording etc, i got one, opened it up, there's a trough ceramic heater, the same ones that have been used for 15years more? a metal box, iv no idea what they mean by insulative, but its just a bent metal box with holes, and the guts of a stat stuck in there too, bingo u have ur ahs, the guard as they call it makes a nice frying pan, throw an egg on it and u got an instant omlette  u can buy guards now to guard against the ahs guard, that should give u an idea on the ahs, i have no idea whatesoever why they recommend placing them on the side low down, i can only think its because their so friggin inefficient at least the snake can get close it to there and not expire 

reptile radiator, low profile, ceramic material, do the job like it says on the tin, good for air heating, if u want a more focused heat penetrating further down in height, get a ceramic bulb. one of the best and cheapest heat plates is just a regular ceramic tile, if ur worried about scorching etc.

i wish u luck in ur endeavour, try not to let the nay sayers get to u, some people are only happy in others misery, such is life.

rgds and good luck
edward


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## chewy86

Thanks allot for that information Edward, i will take it on board and will have a look about for more information and pricings. 

Chewy86.


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## chewy86

If im honest from the start i have wanted to use a ceramic bulb and holder on a pulse stat with a guard. My only fear with it was how hot the holder got to and causing warping to the vivariums. I have spoken to a bloke that assures me his plastic bulb holder is specially made to reduce that heat and even more so with a heat reflector, what do you think about that? Believable, worth a go?

Chewy86.


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## ExoticInsectsUK

It may be worth you testing them for 3-6 months with all the options so that you know whats best to use. You don't want them to sag.
otherwise in a few months you could have alot of angry customers wanting a refund which you don't want:lol2:

Good luck & i would like to see how they look compared to other plastic vivs


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## chewy86

I am testing them for 3 months and i have a friend who is also testing one to get another opinion. I have never heard anyone say "I think ceramics are crap" but so far in this thread alone i have met differant opinions on ahs heaters and questinable efficiancy of others on my larger vivariums. Yet another reason why i keep getting drawn back to finding a method of using ceramics without problems.

Chewy86


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## BenjaminBoaz

Another uk company put a plate in the top for a habistats reptile radiator to be fitted so I don't see a problem. They take up less room use less electric and warm a viv nicely and dont look out of place. I use a 75watt HRR in honey the coatimundi's shed. 3x5x3. It dosent heat down to the floor but it dosent need to as her bed shelf is higher up. It's well insulated and keeps heat well.


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## chewy86

I think these would work great on 2+3ft vivs and fairly well on 4ft. But 5ft+ would probably mean fitting two of them. 
I was thinking of suspending this plastic ceramic bulb holder from the ceiling and trying that, as the company claim the holder is cool enough to hold when operating. If this is the case then aslong as the holder isnt screwed into the ceiling or too close to any of the walls it shouldnt get above polypropylene's warping temps of around 100c.

Chewy86


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## BenjaminBoaz

It looks so unsightly this box or bulb hanging. You wouldn't have a problem in a 4x2x1 (I forget your heights)
The 6 ft 2x18" I have has 2 3ft x 1ft under the viv. And heats it fine in my reptile room. Room temp about 22-24 in summer. So 2 HRR would be ok. They are a good bit of kit as said and very safe compared to the other two choices. Ever sprayed a ceramic bulb or other ceramic heat element by accident? Also means your vivs can be used for high humidity animals.


----------



## chewy86

I have my retic at 70% humidity and the bulb doesnt seem to bothered (so to speak) and if i had to reprads and a stat and guards i would be looking at £130-140 to buy for me meaning £150-160 minimum to the customer as i couldnt sell a trade prices, so not that economically practical. Gtp,etb's have vivs viv bulbs in all the time so im sure ceramics will suit most animals. But going back to what ive said before, i will sell the vivs with heat panel fitted so the customer can add a reprap or ahs themsleves as a later date.

Chewy86.


----------



## chewy86

The 1800x600x400 prototype vivarium should be finished by the end of next week and be with me early the week after. I am testing it with a 12mm p/p heat panel welded to the ceiling, with a nylon coated hanging ceramic bulb holder (on a hook) 250w ceramic bulb and ceramic guard. Once I am happy everything is functioning correctly (if it does, im a realist) I have someone testing the viv setup at his home for a couple of months, to see how it performs in the field. (so to speak)

Dont worry Photos will be added before i let him have it and also he is adding some photos of the vivarium in use with his snake.
I have decided that i am not going to attempt to supply the heating gear, as there are so many options to cover people would get them just as easilly and as cheap sourcing their own but I will reccomend the nylon coated bulb holder and also that a ceramic guard and p.p stat is used. 
For those who wish to use other heating, just let me know when ordering and i will have the heat plate welded where needed and also made to size for the heating product in question.

Thanks for all your input and interest so far and i hope you like the product and pricings (although there not as cheap as i hoped when i had the idea.) 

Chewy86.


----------



## chewy86

Right people as i say i have my prototype being built as we speak and tested over the next few weeks at mine before going to live at a friends house for field testing. 

I am almost sorted on the pricings but not going to offer them out yet as things may change in production cost or delivery in the mean time. At the moment the vivs are ranging £30-60 cheaper over the whole range then additional discount is being offered on bulk orders. (although discounts arnt huge they are noticable when you add up savings you have already made, before discount and with discount over the large order. as profit margins are so small) i have priced up 11 models for the range, although as I have stated through out custom dimensions are available. 

Discount is going to be available on orders of 5 vivs+.

what you get for the price shown per model -

. viv
. 1 window on 2-3ft models, 2 windows on 4ft plus models
. each window has 2 hinges and 2 camlocks (the camlocks allow you to just turn and secure to shut or lock aswell) The locks will all have individually cut keys for added security.
. heat plate will be welded to viv (where customer requests) and also v-plates welded to sides of arboreal models.
. Delivery to customers house within the prices.

Now i have given some information i need to recieve some opinions :2thumb: Going back to the arboreal vivs i was going to offer a standard place for arboreal branch/pole positioning and also offer customers the choice of there prefered height/distance from heat source.
Could the arboreal keepers please advise what they feel would suit the snakes best from experiance as i have no arboreal experiance and as from the start of the project, i want to build this range with customer preferances in mind over my opinions.

Sliding doors and trim added to the bottom of viv for those who insist on heat mat use. Will be an optional extra that will come at an extra cost that has yet to be agreed with the manufacturer. For this reason i advise the drop down door option but can accomodate sliding. This being said with the extra cost they will be a lot cheaper than the sliding door equivelant vivariums (plastic of course)

Thanks in advance
Chewy86.


----------



## chewy86

no arboreal lovers want to chime in? :whistling2:


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## geckodelta

Cant wait for the pic's


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## chewy86

I can wait to see them either mate it should be here next week.


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## mooshu

Id definitely be interested I want to keep a big collection of GTP's and they are arboreal, high humidity snakes. I'd need a watertight 3x2x2 foot but I want adjustable vents and at least 6" from bottom of the viv to the bottom of the door for a nice think layer of substrate (drainage and soil) let me know when/if you got through with it I'll be your first customer, If no one else has said that (haven't read the whole thread sorry)


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## chewy86

thats fine how many are you after?, what height do you want your branches and what heating method do you want to use and position? Regarding the first customer you may be if your quicker than all the others that haved pm'd with orders.


----------



## mooshu

Id be using a ahs heater and have a uvb strip along attached to the top! The perches would have to be romovable and Id probably want 3 running along the length of the viv High at the back, middle in te middle and low at the front!? I think! how far have you got with the suppliers and all that?


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## chewy86

i believe the reprads work really well for arboreals? Either is fine to have done though mate. All is going through now just needs testing and then i can confirm prices.


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## chewy86

I have found that supplying heating myself is pointless as you can source it for so cheap direct from manufacturers and bulk buying suppliers.
But I am going to recommend 3 companies that come up best to cover all your heating needs at the lowest cost and highest quality. All heating equiptment and hardware are with the manufacturer for the prototype as of tomorrow and production will be completed by the end of the week. Meaning once he has tested the viv on full heat and we are happy he will send it to me to test from a reptile keeper point of view. Photos will be going up as soon as i get it at mine and up and running including final prices and information of the range. Not long now herpers!

Chewy86


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## PAB

Can we have a look at your drawings of the design or better still a few pics please, Pete


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## chewy86

prototype will be finished by the end of the week, and next week when i take delivery ill put photos up. Anything you want to ask that i could help with before hand?


----------



## chewy86

I have just got off the phone with the manufacturer and he informs me the prototype is ready for delivery. he left the 250w ceramic bulb running on full (full on stat) and the floor temps were 180f and no alteration to the viv at all so at 86-92f range us herpers tend to use, there will definatly be no problems with heating using ceramic heating. The whole viv holds also temps and humidity great. I am recieving it this friday for my testing and photographing so keep an eye out for the new thread coming over the weekend with final pricings and discounts available on bulk orders :2thumb: 

Chewy86


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## BenjaminBoaz

Once you have the new thread up and running please can you put the link up on this one for us. I don't want to miss it! 
Many thanks.


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## chewy86

Will do animalstorey : victory: I cant wait to get it back mine for testing, feels like im bringing my baby home for the first time :lol2: 
I know its sad but after all the phone calls, emails, drawings and playing with figures im just glad i can have a play with it and let people know the final prices and ordering details.

Kind of annoyed that p.p prices have just risen this month as that has put the original prices up a tad, but since i will be the cheapest and probably the only plastic viv company in the uk for now. People that want them will have to understand that i can only sell them for what I can get them for and this is the only place that would make them for a decent price and trust me ive asked them all. Plus as i have said all along my profits are tiny per unit but hopefully will accumalate with a good returning customer base. If not fine ill sell less and make less im just happy to supply the market with quality but well priced vivariums, if people want them or not ive done my best.

Chewy86.


----------



## chewy86

if anyone wants to put thier name on the list of people after a pm when up and running please pm me with the vivs you are looking at ordering so i can give you a price.


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## chewy86

viv arrived later than expected ill post up the thread tommorow.


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## BenjaminBoaz

It's like christmas all over again.


----------



## Krista

animalstorey said:


> Once you have the new thread up and running please can you put the link up on this one for us. I don't want to miss it!
> Many thanks.


Me too......jumps off band wagon :2thumb:

Jingle Bells.


----------



## chewy86

Im posting a few photos for those who have waited long enough to see what they will look like. These were taken on my phone just to tie you over till the professional photos are taken and the new thread will be submitted. This is the 6ft model that arrived late yesterday i have set it up and have it in testing now, started off in cold room and although hot end seems great at 32-33c the cool end is holding 23-24c (not ideal) moving the room temps to 75-77f to see how this influences the cool end temps so i can advise a room temp required for running a healthy climate for your animals in my vivariums. Prices will follow with new thread as still sorting out discounts for multiple purchases. 

All models 4-8ft will look like the photos below and 2-3ft models will just contain no centre column and only one window. All hardware will be identical though. Let me hear what you think?
















































Chewy86.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Looking very smart.


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## chewy86

Thanks mate. And while were talking of smart like the new website mate your doing a good thing over there.


----------



## Kaouthia

Very nice mate. Looks a lot like the Boaphile vivs, but obviously they're not available in the UK (unless you want to pay ridiculous shipping charges and order from the US).

When you whack the heat on for the first time, any funny smells that need to air out?


----------



## chewy86

No smells mate, and heats up quickly. Looks like room temps will have to be mid-late 70's as expected. But in all honesty I wouldnt dream of keeping any viv/snake in lower room temps. 75-80f being my normal room temp range.


----------



## mooshu

Looking good mate! Very tidy! So when do we get to hear prices?


----------



## Graham

Very smart. I personally prefer a wood finish as it fits in with my decor, but these could look great in the right setting, very minimalist and hi-tech.


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## Krista

Hi,

Looking very nice.... Just waiting for the price : victory:

Jingle Bells.


----------



## chewy86

Thanks mooshu, prices will be up next week. 

Thanks graham as you say not for everyone but definatly well built and will last a lifetime. perfect for hobbyists and breeders alike, no more buying new vivs every couple of years which can become expensive if you own 20-30vivs.


----------



## chewy86

Prices wil be up as soon as i can get discounts sorted. Individual prices are over what i wanted but you wont get them any cheaper as material, vat, labour and delivery charges have rocketed this year compared to last. Shame really as im sure some potential customers wont be able to afford them again, which was the whole point of me doing this project in the first place. But on the flip side they will still be the cheapest high quality plastic viv on the uk market and will last forever. I know this as i have spoke to hundreds of companys and you wont be able to have them made any cheaper plus find someone soft enough to sell them at less than £50 after tax and n.i payments.


----------



## Postcard

Kaouthia said:


> Very nice mate. L*ooks a lot like the Boaphile vivs*, but obviously they're not available in the UK (unless you want to pay ridiculous shipping charges and order from the US).
> 
> When you whack the heat on for the first time, any funny smells that need to air out?


Yeah they do - really really smart. Much better looking than most things out there imo!

Would love to hear about prices etc.


----------



## chewy86

Lets be honest most plastic welded vivs have stemmed from the boaphile original design. Besides the moulded vivs ie herptek and vision.


----------



## ExoticInsectsUK

It looks good what other colors will you do as black doesn't go with modern day decoration any lighter colors?
You keep saying they will last a lifetime so do these come with a lifetime guarantee or is it a guess?

To say wooden vivs only last 2 years is wrong if you look after wooden vivs they can last years i have some over 5 years old & they have no wear, well the only wear is on the runners. as long as there water tight there ok.

Coldblooded have had the same wooden vivs for 7+ years and they have over 100 so they can last.

I can't wait to see the prices & different types
if you can sell them for under £50 im sure you will sell many good luck.


----------



## Kaouthia

Graham said:


> Very smart. I personally prefer a wood finish as it fits in with my decor, but these could look great in the right setting, very minimalist and hi-tech.


I agree, I prefer the look of wood as aesthetics go, but for practical purposes, vivs like these are fantastic. Quick and easy to clean, non absorbant, and they can last forever.


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## chewy86

I have always found that wooden vivs start to smell after 2-3years but like with all things there are exceptions. Especially with retics and thier wee wee floods. Prices to follow mate and as said if people want them they will pay for them if they dont they will stick with wood and replace as required. This isnt my lively hood just my passion being involved with reptiles. The going under of Rhino vivs proves to me this type of product isnt going to be a fulltime income business. And the market for them isnt huge but i will continue to offer them and hope people will take advantage of these quality vivariums. There will not be a lifetime garantee but the material used will last atleast 10x longer than chipboard and water tanks and the like are still in use 30+years after production. Proofs in the pud, im sure if someone's vivarium started to play up after 30years no one would feel that it owed them anything.


----------



## leecb0

They look like Rhino vivs which were said to be the best thing since sliced bread.......not....lol......I am led to believe the company is up for sale again, so the original guy sold up as he realised they wouldnt sell as well as he thought then the next guys are having to sell up due to them being in debt as they dont sell as well as they thought........now i am not trying to knowck you and have said in earlyer posts and PM's with you but IMO you will have to really be significantly lower on price for you to actually do any good with them.

One of your main problems is as you have said they will be ok in a room with an ambiant temp of 70/80c now thats warm and your average keeper proberbly doesnt keep there reptiles in a room that warm, this means a lot of potetial costomers have now been removed from your market. 

I spoke to someone who had 10 original Rhinos and if you want some feedback on how they actually last chewy PM me.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> It looks good what other colors will you do as black doesn't go with modern day decoration any lighter colors?
> You keep saying they will last a lifetime so do these come with a lifetime guarantee or is it a guess?
> 
> To say wooden vivs only last 2 years is wrong if you look after wooden vivs they can last years i have some over 5 years old & they have no wear, well the only wear is on the runners. as long as there water tight there ok.
> 
> Coldblooded have had the same wooden vivs for 7+ years and they have over 100 so they can last.
> 
> I can't wait to see the prices & different types
> if you can sell them for under £50 im sure you will sell many good luck.


take them apart and see how much water and dirt has got between you will be surprised.


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## chewy86

colour wise you can have them black and white for range prices and i think its 10% dearer for blue,red,yellow and the like but cant see many wanting them colours although i could be shocked. 
I think Rhino vivs struggled due to initial outlay buying the company and prices being too low to profit. plus having to pay for a building and fee's that go with that. Room temps should be in the 70's as believe it or not ri's can be caused by fluctuations in ambiants due to low room temps even with the viv seeming hot enough. (happened to me this winter but caught early)


----------



## chewy86

My outlay is zero so if i sell one a year my life wont chance a bit. If people prefer wooden fine although i hope people see the benefit of these and take advantae of the quality design and build.


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## leecb0

animalstorey said:


> take them apart and see how much water and dirt has got between you will be surprised.


Why would you take apart a well sealed vivarium just to see what has gone on?

I too have wooden vivs admitedly i also have or have had vision and herptek, but i build my own vivariums and i can seal them to be just as watertight as any plastic vivarium and last as long. I know of some of the first Rhinos have been binned cos of grasing of the plastic and warping, and these were kept in a warm ambiant temperature room also he had problems at the begining that snakes could escape from them as the doors can be pushed opening up a gap at the side, this was a boa breeder and they lasted 4/5 years. he now has everything in vision cages which he imported and strangely cost less than the rhinos did?


----------



## leecb0

chewy86 said:


> My outlay is zero so if i sell one a year my life wont chance a bit. If people prefer wooden fine although i hope people see the benefit of these and take advantae of the quality design and build.


Dont get me wrong Chewy they look very well made mate and im glad your not going to loose out if it doesnt come off, i lost a lot with a business going under it aint funny.


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## Caz

Good looking. Would prefer white or a light colour so visually I could see they had been cleaned out well.
How do heaters/lights etc screw into the material? Is there enought thickness to hide scew ends poking out?


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## naja-naja

would be interested in a 6'x3' one, 15''-18'' height, 16'' preferred.


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## chalky76

Looks great. Are they all going to be black or can you get other colours? Can you take a picture of the heading set up as Id be interested to see how this is done before placing an order?

Cheers


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## chewy86

The ceiling has a 12mm polypropylene plate welded to it, so guard screws into that and the bulb holder hangs from a hook in the plate and the wire slots into a groove in the 12mm polypropylene plate.

White and black are standard colours others are at cost but i doubt anyone will pay extra for a yellow or blue viv? (may be wrong)

there is no way a corn snake could escape these vivs never mind a boa or retic. The build quality is second to none welded inside and processed in a high tech long running plastic fabricating company will time served staff. not done in a rented accomodation. 

Im sorry to hear your business went under in a bad way lee but i am making sure im protected from that i am doing this as much for the community as i am for myself. If it doesnt take off it wasnt to be but i tried my best.


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## Biggys

Very nice mate :2thumb:


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## Xerse

A lot different to what i was expecting, i really like them. Wouldn't mind a couple actually :whistling2:

How long have you been testing for? (you got it on friday?) has it been in use since then? 4 of my snakes need new vivs fairly soon, two of them needing a new viv as soon as i can afford one, so think i may have to go for these depending on the price! 

Real good work chewy.


----------



## chewy86

Thanks mate. tested since yesterday in a room in the low to mid 60's and today it is going in my snake room at 75-80f to see what temps are perfect, no smells no warping or sagging and solid welds and build quality.


----------



## loxocemus

now that is very nice viv, i like the finish, i like the locks, doors, everything, thats a nice finished product, id give ur left arm to be able to make something like that (i wouldnt give my own arm, im not insane and i couldnt make many with one arm), id love to see an arboreal one lit up with a chondro or emmy in it, that would be very very nice i think.

congrats :2thumb:

rgds
ed



chewy86 said:


> Im posting a few photos for those who have waited long enough to see what they will look like. These were taken on my phone just to tie you over till the professional photos are taken and the new thread will be submitted. This is the 6ft model that arrived late yesterday i have set it up and have it in testing now, started off in cold room and although hot end seems great at 32-33c the cool end is holding 23-24c (not ideal) moving the room temps to 75-77f to see how this influences the cool end temps so i can advise a room temp required for running a healthy climate for your animals in my vivariums. Prices will follow with new thread as still sorting out discounts for multiple purchases.
> 
> All models 4-8ft will look like the photos below and 2-3ft models will just contain no centre column and only one window. All hardware will be identical though. Let me hear what you think?
> 
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> 
> Chewy86.


----------



## Xerse

chewy86 said:


> Thanks mate. tested since yesterday in a room in the low to mid 60's and today it is going in my snake room at 75-80f to see what temps are perfect, no smells no warping or sagging and solid welds and build quality.


Will you be posting prices etc onto this thread next week? i'll definately be checking back to see prices. Love everything about them mate.


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## chewy86

thankyou very much it means a lot to me.


----------



## chewy86

Prices will be posted on new thread with better photos. i will post a link on here to the other thread so no one misses it.


----------



## Xerse

chewy86 said:


> Prices will be posted on new thread with better photos. i will post a link on here to the other thread so no one misses it.



Awesome, cheers mate!


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## krox2008

looks class m8 i would be interested in a few 5x2s wot sort of price are we looking at m8:2thumb:


----------



## geckodelta

Looking great, much better than I expected, they look very sturdy aswell :2thumb:


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## chewy86

cheers mate, appreciate the kind words : victory:


----------



## Doone

Looking good mate. 
Look forward to seeing prices. Have you made any white ones yet
Steve


----------



## mrhoyo

They look pretty much like rhino vivs, I hope they aren't as prohibitively expensive though.
What guarantee do they come with? I wouldn't want to buy any and then not have anything to fall back on if they knacker up.
I'm looking for 3-5 4x2s so these could be an option depending on the price.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

very similar to rhinos old prices mate. But my prices are after the rise in polypropylene prices and other materials not to mention labour, delivery fee's and vat rise. These arnt cheap but are the cheapest in the uk at present. I Have nojtsorted warantee details yet but these arnt poorly made, or able to break from normal use.


----------



## dave2034

good luck i hope you can get this up and running as i will be interested in 2 vivs


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## chewy86

no problem dave pm me the viv sizes your looking for.


----------



## dave2034

4fx3fx3f and a 6fx4fx3f if that is poss let me know


----------



## ExoticInsectsUK

chewy86 said:


> I have always found that wooden vivs start to smell after 2-3years but like with all things there are exceptions.


But this may just be the way you keep them i know wooden vivs can smell but if you clean them out everyday and don't let them rot the seals and smell they can last much longer.



chewy86 said:


> colour wise you can have them black and white for range prices and i think its 10% dearer for blue,red,yellow and the like but cant see many wanting them colours although i could be shocked.


I cant see many people want them colors maybe try cream,silver,or a light wood effect these would suit more peoples needs.

I think you have a good product which some people will buy even at a high price if it suits there pets needs. But there's no need to bend the truth or lie about other products to try and make other brands seem like less quality to yours.

I would say you could not tell the quality of your products until there tested for a long time if rhino vivs failed after 3 years who's to say yours wont you are only relaying what your supplier has told you and its not factual tested information just what they think from previous experience making other product which would have nothing to do with making a enclosure to hold heat and keep snakes in. Im just saying maybe don't do a lifetime guarantee until you have them tested in sales for 3 years to see how they hold up.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> But this may just be the way you keep them i know wooden vivs can smell but if you clean them out everyday and don't let them rot the seals and smell they can last much longer.
> 
> 
> 
> I cant see many people want them colors maybe try cream,silver,or a light wood effect these would suit more peoples needs.
> 
> I think you have a good product which some people will buy even at a high price if it suits there pets needs. But there's no need to bend the truth or lie about other products to try and make other brands seem like less quality to yours.
> 
> I would say you could not tell the quality of your products until there tested for a long time if rhino vivs failed after 3 years who's to say yours wont you are only relaying what your supplier has told you and its not factual tested information just what they think from previous experience making other product which would have nothing to do with making a enclosure to hold heat and keep snakes in. Im just saying maybe don't do a lifetime guarantee until you have them tested in sales for 3 years to see how they hold up.


Rhino vivs haven't failed after three years.. They just let themselves and customers down for a bit but hopefully they will have sorted out the problems. I didn't get any warrenty with my rhinos and I've never seen them given with wooden vivs. These will be made to a good standard as the people making them have been in business over 20 years. I don't think you even need to give a warranty. These will out live wooden vivs and who wants to have to be resealling wooden vivs ever few months becUse that's whats often required. We all know the benefit of plastic over wood- why do you think so many people use RUBs. There will be people out there looking for kitting themselves out and it's nit going to be as ap as wood or making your own but if your wanting something that should last this is it. It should last a life time but that's not a promise that the seller wants to make as there always something that could happen- Ie a fire, avalanche, earthquake etc. 
Boaiphile, rhinos and these are all made from the same product so I don't think there needs to be any worry that they aren't any good and need years of testing first.


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## chalky76

Can you put pictures of the vivs heating up so we can see how it can be laid out?


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## chewy86

here is a photo of my ceramic bulb setup in the 6ft prototype.










I am going to offer white or black heat plates. We went with white just to test how it looks as black would obviously blend in with the viv and didnt need to be tested. Any suspended ceramic bulb holder is fine ro use but i decided on thermoplastic for reduced heat around the vivs ceiling i advise everyone does the same for extra reasurance.


----------



## Kaouthia

Would it be wise, or possible, to bevel the edges of the heat plate up there? I've just got a thing about sharp corners and edges inside my vivs.


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## kell_boy

looking good mate, let us know those prices, shame they wont be as cheap as 1st thought but if a full setup isn't crazy cash Id be interested in a 4 or 5x2 : victory:


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## chewy86

beveled edges is fine mate and i take your point (pardon the pun) when theres a will theres a way with snakes.


----------



## samurai

I love the look of them  How long will you be testing the prototype before starting to sell them? I've heard people say rhino vivs could warp which i'm guessing doesn't happen straight away. This is my main concern with a plastic viv. Are the doors also plastic or they glass? can you do any with sliding doors too?


----------



## Iguanaquinn

Whats the biggest arboreal viv you could feasibly make? I have an Iguana, and I am looking at options for when she is an adult.


----------



## chalky76

Good to see the pic of the heating system. What is the clearance under the heater? Im looking at the 18” high version so am just wondering what space would be available under the guard and ceramic all in all?
Sorry for all the questions
Cheers


----------



## chewy86

With an iggy viv mate it will be cost thats the issue. Are you thinking 6x4x6 or something?

I am working on a sliding door design also, again just weighing up cost and the best design for looks and strength of the vivarium.

Warping I think was caused by too much localised heat, with the use of a heat mats, ahs and the like. Because they fix directly to the plastic or get heat taped to it, gathering more heat in direct contact with the plastic. The way the ceramic hangs on mine is nowhere near any part of the viv and the plastis gets warmed to no hotter than in the 90's(f) p.p doesnt start to disform untill around 100c, so cant see this being a problem but cant garuntee this with not having one in the field (so to speak) for long enough.

Hope to have this up for sale in the next 4-6weeks.


----------



## chewy86

No worries mate, you would be crazy not to ask if you are unsure.
The bulb is 9" from the floor and the guard is 7" but you could get away with a 1" smaller guard and be 8" from the floor if you wanted. This would still give a 1" clearance all around the bulb from the guard. 

Any other questions fire away people, I dont want people feeling they shouldnt be asking questions.


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## chewy86

The doors are acrylic and the rest of the vivarium including panel welded to the ceiling for suspending the heating gear from is polypropylene.


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## BenjaminBoaz

I still think a Habistat radiator would look and be a whole lot better.


----------



## chewy86

That option will be fine mate. My only concern is effectiveness in 5ft plus models? 2-4ft models im sure would woek excellent with them and i will make the fixing plate any size and fit anywhere on the viv to suit.
I dont like heat mats as a plan as i have said i feel you need 80-85f room temps min and this localised heat can cause warping imo. Suspended bulbs, reprads and the like are my prefered heating options. If people choose to use another fine but i have voiced my worries clearly in advance.


----------



## chalky76

chewy86 said:


> No worries mate, you would be crazy not to ask if you are unsure.
> The bulb is 9" from the floor and the guard is 7" but you could get away with a 1" smaller guard and be 8" from the floor if you wanted. This would still give a 1" clearance all around the bulb from the guard.
> 
> Any other questions fire away people, I dont want people feeling they shouldnt be asking questions.


Thanks, is that based on the 18" high or 24" high Viv? Do you think a habistat radiator would work well enough for a Boa Constrictor?


----------



## chewy86

radiator would work well for all snakes in a 2-3ft viv but 4ft plus i feel you would need a ceramic or ahs but ahs heaters havnt been tested in these yet and i have had people say they arnt that brialliant in anything bigger than 4ft either. personally i think 250w ceramic in a 4x2x1.5-8x3x1.5 and make sure room temps are mid-high 70's into early 80's. 

The model shown is the 18" tall model. All are 18" tall except the two arboreals that are 24" tall.


----------



## samurai

Thanks for answering my questions


----------



## BenjaminBoaz

chewy86 said:


> radiator would work well for all snakes in a 2-3ft viv but 4ft plus i feel you would need a ceramic or ahs but ahs heaters havnt been tested in these yet and i have had people say they arnt that brialliant in anything bigger than 4ft either. personally i think 250w ceramic in a 4x2x1.5-8x3x1.5 and make sure room temps are mid-high 70's into early 80's.
> 
> The model shown is the 18" tall model. All are 18" tall except the two arboreals that are 24" tall.


U can put 2 plates in if required on larger vivs and with a 6-8 inch space between would cover a large area with less power used. And still safe money than using a 240watt bulb. Don't underestimate them just because of old skool ceramics. 
I use to used two in a 2.5ft square by 3ft high viv for years. I found one worked well on it's own and turned one off. In my four foots I'm using matts under the vivs and I get excellent heat from them without using air drying bulbs.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Actually it's good your fitting them otherwise I could see people putting in their own and positioning it wrong or without a guard.


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## kell_boy

chewy86 said:


> No worries mate, you would be crazy not to ask if you are unsure.
> The bulb is 9" from the floor and the guard is 7" but you could get away with a 1" smaller guard and be 8" from the floor if you wanted. This would still give a 1" clearance all around the bulb from the guard.
> 
> Any other questions fire away people, I dont want people feeling they shouldnt be asking questions.


so your saying the the clearance between the guard and the FLOOR of the viv is only 7 inches?

Id be a bit worried about that with my blood python, 7 inchyes is nothing to him and he is very very strong, I wouldnt be surprised if he could break the fixing/guard with force if its easy enough for him to push at if its so low (only reason he couldnt do his current is because its too high up)

but he does push things very hard (Ive seen him push the glass doors with crazy force)

maybe a rad would be better, if it could sustain 82-84 ambient across the whole thing it wud be fine for him ,but your having problems with cool side ambients?


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## chewy86

My prototype has a large guard on but you could make the gap 8". No 18" tall viv on earth could give a bigger clearance from a ceramic bulb and guard. Like you say for your purpose you would be better with a 4x2x1.5 with a rep rad and a room temp in the 70's (imo how all rep rooms should be minimum) With pushing the guard if he cant push glass out of thin felxible plastic runner i wouldnt of thought he would rip 4 x 10mm screws out? i may be wrong.

The 6ft model in a room in the low 60's is heated perfectly upto 4ft then drops too low for my liking hence my advice to keep room temps in the 70's. 4x2x1.5 will be fine in the mid 60's from the looks of it but still not ideal as low room temps can cause ri's, through cold draft through ventilation.


----------



## kell_boy

chewy86 said:


> My prototype has a large guard on but you could make the gap 8". No 18" tall viv on earth could give a bigger clearance from a ceramic bulb and guard. Like you say for your purpose you would be better with a 4x2x1.5 with a rep rad and a room temp in the 70's (imo how all rep rooms should be minimum) With pushing the guard if he cant push glass out of thin felxible plastic runner i wouldnt of thought he would rip 4 x 10mm screws out? i may be wrong.
> 
> The 6ft model in a room in the low 60's is heated perfectly upto 4ft then drops too low for my liking hence my advice to keep room temps in the 70's. 4x2x1.5 will be fine in the mid 60's from the looks of it but still not ideal as low room temps can cause ri's, through cold draft through ventilation.


yea well are you doing any 2ft high? My room stays well into mid 70s so no issue for me at all.


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## chewy86

Im doing them any size you want mate. The only reason i picked 18" is so 4 can stack on a base and be accessible, whilst also being tall enough to use various internal heating methods including ceramics. 
But for those who just want one or two to use like normal vivs, 24" will be fine although you could just have 3 and a bae stack its upto you.


----------



## reptiles-ink

kell_boy said:


> Id be a bit worried about that with my blood python, 7 inchyes is nothing to him and he is very very strong, I wouldnt be surprised if he could break the fixing/guard with force if its easy enough for him to push at if its so low (only reason he couldnt do his current is because its too high up)


 I supplied the guard.
He wouldn't manage to break the guard, it is made from steel and I personally use them for my burms and retics. Believe me a 14 foot burn deciding she wants to get between the guard and the side of the viv is a damned good test for strength.


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## chewy86

I certainly did and could not be happier with it. For me i would get a wider one next time, to make changing bulbs easier. And an inch shorter for more clearance. Any one purchasing my vivs will be pointed in your direction mate. Great prices and service, with fast turn around from order to delivery. Thanks for putting peoples minds at rest also.


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## naja-naja

what would the price be on 6'x3' vivs that are 14''-18'' high? (closer to 14 if possible, but whatever works out the cheapest- i.e. less cutting- works i suppose)
also could one use radiant heat panels in these vivs? i would prefer these to ceramics.


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## chewy86

prices are still being confirmed. You can use any heater internal its just how well they would heat a big viv mate. Steve d mentioned tubular heaters. As have a few others for bigger vivs.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Tubes work ok. I had a pine 6ft x 3x 3 with one in.

One thing to remember: if you are stacking 3 or 4 of these in a room it is going to kick out a lot of heat and the room : say large bedroom size , will get to 26 c so to have a room full all with high power ceramics isn't actually needed as smaller watts on pulse stats do perfect. My 10 are on heat mats then I have 10 large strips on my racks. A heat cable on the hatchling rack. Two smallish wooden vivs with ceramics, lights in all bibs. UV Tube in with Bosc. The room is 24-26. I leave the window open all summer as the heat stays in the room well. Floor is laminate and feels likes it's got under floor heating. No wonder people struggle to breed some stuff! On a one viv order the heat needs to be there if on display, but in rep room it's
Different.


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## chewy86

I am olny supplying the vivariums mate, so heating wattages will be down to customer common sense. All i need to know is what heating method is required so I can have appropriate plate fitted to support heat source and guard. 24-26c is my reccomended room temp with the larger vivariums to hold a decent cool end temperature.


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## chewy86

Should have prices fully confirmed by the end of the week Ladies and Gents. : victory: 

Pm your order if you havnt already and I will get some quotes sorted for discounts and further details for you.

Chewy86


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## antneb

nice looking product. whats the ventilation like in them? and how easy would it be if i wanted to add more vents?


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## BenjaminBoaz

The only vent is the gap around the door but you could use a drill and put any size holes in. The gap would suffice though. 
You could do all sorts though like cut a 2 inch hole and glue a CPU fan over it and blow air in or our to create excellent air flow possibilities! Simple to do.


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## chewy86

There is a lot of ventilation around the doors, pushing on to max ventilation imo. Theis is over 3mm around the doors, much more ventilation than any wooden viv ive seen/used.

Thanks for answering in my absence animalstorey and thanks for your kind words antneb.

Chewy86


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## BenjaminBoaz

Ment to make my post sound better! I don't have this type but another, but I'm very interested in what the OP is doing. the gap around doors work perfectly just as it will in this model. Just if you wanted high ventilation you can drill what you want as it's only plastic. Those little fans are excellent though and could be used for animals that need high humidity and high circulation. (please note this is only my though they don't need this for the purpose he's selling/made them for)


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## antneb

i was asking about ventalation because im looking for a big new viv for a chameleon. they need plenty of ventalation. will there will be an arboreal upright version?


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## chewy86

what size do you require? My arboreals are 2x2x2 and 3x2x2 mate. I can get a quote for diffent though if required? The viv has lots of ventilation mate but as said you can drill more or add those fans that animalstorey describes.


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## BenjaminBoaz

antneb said:


> i was asking about ventalation because im looking for a big new viv for a chameleon. they need plenty of ventalation. will there will be an arboreal upright version?


Now that would be so cool!
Great humidity with a pump and spray kit. Water proof. Plant it out - deep substrate for laying, live plants. Uv tubes - check out some of the hydroponic shops for light ideas. Some great T5s! 
Sorry got carried away... Lol.


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## lisa_april

Sounds like a brill idea. n wud b very interested. Viv's r very expensive n as I only keep snakes for pets n not to breed, it can become a expensive hobby!Wud defo be interested in the 6ft or 7ft options!


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## BenjaminBoaz

I was thinking fuji island iguanas. On a full auto system.


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## antneb

chewy86 said:


> what size do you require? My arboreals are 2x2x2 and 3x2x2 mate. I can get a quote for diffent though if required? The viv has lots of ventilation mate but as said you can drill more or add those fans that animalstorey describes.


 
ideally id like one thats 4 ft, depends on price really. when u have your prices sorted i can figure out what i can afford.


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## chewy86

Pm'd everyone who required one. : victory:


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## hathers

do you have prices available yet ?


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## chewy86

page 28 mate i think, for photos. More to come when new viv arrives. Which size are you after mate?


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## chewy86

What a clown I am hathers I read the above as any photos yet :blush:. Pm sent buddy and my apologies for the misreading of your post.

Chewy86.


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## Marti3P

can you get them with no door ventilation for those that keep smaller escape artists? :lol2:


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## mrhoyo

Any new prices yet?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

They can be built however you like mate. and prices are looking like this -

All prices include delivery.

2x2x1.5 - £200
2x2x2 - £225
3x2x1.5 - £250
3x2x2 - £275
4x2x1.5 - £300
4x2x2 - £325
5x2x1.5 - £375
5x2x2 - £400
6x2x1.5 - £425
6x2x2 - £450
6x3x1.5 - £475
6x3x2 - £500
7x2x1.5 - £525
7x2x2 - £550
7x3x1.5 - £575
7x3x2 - £600
8x2x1.5 - £625
8x2x2 - £650
8x3x1.5 - £675
8x3x2 - £700
custom size - ?Quote on request?

Although I think ive covered most bases with above list. 

Viv Bases are still being negotiated.

These prices will only change if cost of manufacture changes, as ive said from the start profit margins are small. Bulk orders will come with a discount to suit quantity ordered.

For those new to my thread page28 contains photos. 

chewy86.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Those big ones are an absolute steel! I might buy one just to keep the kids in.  wow!


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## chewy86

Saves them building a cardboard hut mate :lol2:

Might even do a tree house range :no1:


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## BenjaminBoaz

Now that a good idea. Lol.


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## chewy86

Hows the reptile meet and greet going mate? glad people are taking the time to educate the youth and the oblivous adults to reptiles. removing that stigma, from society.


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## BenjaminBoaz

Jan and Feb quiteish always is. Was in school today and 2 hour party sunday. Always fun. Busy march.


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## Marti3P

You got any photos of the white ones, as its more than likely to be better than black for me as i've got a black snake?


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## chewy86

not had white or beige mate. But prices and design are the same just the colour.


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## BenjaminBoaz

chewy86 said:


> not had white or beige mate. But prices and design are the same just the colour.


Chewy I'd check in that as different colour pigments can be more expensive. Not saying they are but can be. Or you may have been given cost to cover this . In which case I'll shut up. Lol


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## chewy86

black is marginly cheaper but im not charging any differant mate. : victory:


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## BenjaminBoaz

chewy86 said:


> black is marginly cheaper but im not charging any differant mate. : victory:


Thats what I thought. Cool. You done your homework good. I know a little (not a lot-lol) as I worked for allibert (sommer allibert) plastic injection mouldings, I still have box numbers in my head from over 10 years ago and can't help looking at tote boxes when I see one being used! Sad. Lol.


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## chewy86

lol no worries mate :2thumb:


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## BenjaminBoaz

chewy86 said:


> lol no worries mate :2thumb:


I do! I was checking out linpac ones tescos were using to deliver the food earlier and thing nit as good as allibert ones. Lol. I'm getting old.


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## chewy86

now people know the prices. If you know what you require and are ready to order soon. Pm me what you would like and i will contact you first when operational.


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## chewy86

Collecting viv from new supplier hopefully this weekend and testing it again before it goes to a friends house for an unbiased report and test. 
Photos and details of that will be posted on here in the up coming weeks for those still in doubt on the quality of these vivs. 

Going to then confirm everything ready to start taking your orders. Still pm me to let me know what you want, there is a large list forming :whistling2:

Chewy86.


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## rickpellen

sorry ignore pm, just seen prices


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## Erinaceinae

Is this anything to do with your range, chewy?

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...54754-polypropylene-vivarium.html#post7837356


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## chewy86

Thats the guy who made my initial prototype, but I chose to move to another supplier as he tried to rip me off with prices and was a pain in the bum to deal with. not answering emails, moody attitude and the first time he sent me a viv out it turned up damaged and he wasnt at all interested.
He has basically got the hump that i decided to not use him and copied my exact design to sell for himself lol. Deal with him if you like they are conveniantly identical price to mine lol. 

What people will do :gasp:


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## Erinaceinae

chewy86 said:


> Thats the guy who made my initial prototype, but I chose to move to another supplier as he tried to rip me off with prices and was a pain in the bum to deal with. not answering emails, moody attitude and the first time he sent me a viv out it turned up damaged and he wasnt at all interested.
> He has basically got the hump that i decided to not use him and copied my exact design to sell for himself lol. Deal with him if you like they are conveniantly identical price to mine lol.
> 
> What people will do :gasp:


Oh ok, it looks like a cr*p website anyway, and i think you've built yourself up more support than him on here so far!


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## chewy86

It makes me ill to think this man is selling these £100 cheaper if not more than he was willing to make them for me for. And claimed he needed to make that on them to profit. 

obviously not!!! :censor:


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## Speeple

chewy86 said:


> Thats the guy who made my initial prototype, but I chose to move to another supplier as he tried to rip me off with prices and was a pain in the bum to deal with. not answering emails, moody attitude and the first time he sent me a viv out it turned up damaged and he wasnt at all interested.
> He has basically got the hump that i decided to not use him and copied my exact design to sell for himself lol. Deal with him if you like they are conveniantly identical price to mine lol.
> 
> What people will do :gasp:


Your viv look great mate, but on the topic of design stealing, wouldn't you say yours are almost identical to rhinos (which in itself are copies of US companies)?


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## BenjaminBoaz

If you make a box out of card board it's going to pretty much look like anyother cardboard box. Some if you make it out of poly prop. What can you change to a basic design? Door shape? Locks and hinges. 
Don't most wooden vivs look the same? It's not nice that this guy has aimed to listen to chewy and then though [email protected] you.


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## pollywog

I'm very sorry to hear that your previous supplier has done exactly what I warned you of earlier in this thread. Best of luck getting it sorted.


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## chewy86

My point is he took my design down to the last detail.

ie hinges, locks, supplier, sizes, prices, customer base, the lot.

As said a box is a box but atleast have the decency to source your own hardware and design. My design was my own and is differant to all other polyprop vivs (as much as it can be) and was started to try and save fellow herpers money on these vivs. Granted whilst making a little aggro profit (so to speak) 

not in spite as I was told my work is crap and rushed and my attitude stinks amongst other complaints. 

The guy knows nothing about reptiles or the market and has very little time to spend on trying to answer customer questions, that he doesnt know the answer to. Not to mention him always being in a meeting or out to lunch.

His first question was hi can you tell me what viv i need for these snakes and hesting options. He basically answered, check the website all the sizes are there.

in other words erm i dont know im just a numpty. My vivs are the same price and I know the market and its needs, who you choose to go with is your decision.

Chewy86


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## kell_boy

hey mate do those prices on previous page include the heating setup|?


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## chewy86

no mate it includes the viv, doors, locks, hinges and plate welded to where ever on the viv is required to fix heating. then for £35 you can get the ceramic holder with cable and plug plus 250w bulb and guard (hinged for easy access)


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## BenjaminBoaz

They may at a glance look like other makes of poly vivs but chewy chose the locks and hindges himself and he has spent a lot of time tweaking the design and other unseen things to strengthen them and offer a great product. He's been working really hard and listening to peoples opinions and ideas to come up with this final product, sizes and the range. For someone to just take that is very ungentlemanly. 
Rather like George greenough taking all of William 'strata' smiths work!


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## mrhoyo

Business is business, if there's no copyright, trademark or patent people can do what they want.
The good news is you'll still get most of the business unless he does them at a better price because they're still really quite dear.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## Speeple

animalstorey said:


> They may at a glance look like other makes of poly vivs but chewy chose the locks and hindges himself and he has spent a lot of time tweaking the design and other unseen things to strengthen them and offer a great product. He's been working really hard and listening to peoples opinions and ideas to come up with this final product, sizes and the range. For someone to just take that is very ungentlemanly.
> Rather like George greenough taking all of William 'strata' smiths work!


I'm not for one second suggesting this guy hasn't pulled a fast one on him. But as above, business is business, going to the effort of selecting locks etc. doesn't really give you ownership of the design - as essentially it's still the same as many plastic viv designs out there, bar a difference in components.

To be fair, this will always be a risk in business if essentially all you do is align yourself as a middleman. It's all too easy (as this example shows) for the producer to go direct to the customer. Sometimes you can't blame them, why take a cut of the profits to fill the pockets of a middleman?


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## chewy86

Because as he admitted to me at the time. He has no knowledge of reptiles/vivariums or the requirements. Not to mention doesnt have the time to deal with the additional load of dealing with customers and what comes with it. (struggled to repy to single question emails)

He has only bothered to do it out of spite and out of greed thinking he can make a quick buck on another person/persons idea, because i decided he was a rip off merchant with craply built products. That was spoon fed and tweaked for him.

business is business but some people choose to behave in differant manors to others.

Chewy86


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## mrhoyo

Are you still going to sell vivariums then or have you decided there's too much competition?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

Still selling them mate my first one is being delivered weekend for final testing (as its a new supplier) then going to a friends for further testing before im happy to sell in bulk in a couple of weeks time.

Prices are sorted now, in regards to competition i have paragon vivs, dont know their prices as he hasnt specified yet?
This numpty whos prices are the same as mine but he knows nothing about the market or reptiles in general, at all. he wont last long.
Others in the market imo use lower quality materials and dont see people flocking to them for this reason and the u.s vivs are too expensibe once shipping fees have been applied.

Even if i sell one a week, thats life and ill be happy that im offering a well priced quality viv for those who want it. Granted they could be sold cheaper straight from the supplier but they have bigger overheads so its not worth them doing it. Hence my confusion over why this guy is even attempting to enter the market wearing a blind fold.

In terms of price, herptek, vision and the like havnt done too badly being more expensive and made with cheaper materials so i cant see why I cant. 

Chewy86.


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## mrhoyo

Are Rhino totally folded now?
Is Paragon Alan who started Rhino?
It can only be good for us consumers with some competition, prices will come down and hopefully quality will rise.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

Alan has started paragon vivs. He sold rhino vivs which is no longer trading so alan has decided to start up again.

Prices wont come down mate and if they do it wont be hear or there, these cost too much to make. im making pittens after tax and alan having to make them himself and spending allot on equiptment and maerials. not to mention the hours and aggro building them in a garage brings, it wouldnt be worth seling them any less.

Chewy86.


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## mrhoyo

If they're both going to be the same price how are you going to stop Alan having all your customers? He's been in this market before with a very high quality product and therefore has an existing reputation and probably a customer base.
I'm just finishing off the final year of my degree and one of the modules is on small businesses so I'm intrigued!

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

Its up to personal preferance mate, both ranges have there differances and im not sure how much alans are going to be yet. 

Last year they were more expensive he may drop to compete but who knows? He may just hope for returning customers also. Although he may choose to build it up again get fedup and sell, who knows time will tell.

im here for the ride though. 

Chewy86.


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## mrhoyo

We shall wait and see, hopefully it hasn't been a big waste of your time.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## chewy86

Ive sold a few already mate so if I just get them its been fun while its lasted. 

: victory:


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## BenjaminBoaz

Speeple said:


> I'm not for one second suggesting this guy hasn't pulled a fast one on him. But as above, business is business, going to the effort of selecting locks etc. doesn't really give you ownership of the design - as essentially it's still the same as many plastic viv designs out there, bar a difference in components.
> 
> To be fair, this will always be a risk in business if essentially all you do is align yourself as a middleman. It's all too easy (as this example shows) for the producer to go direct to the customer. Sometimes you can't blame them, why take a cut of the profits to fill the pockets of a middleman?


Never said it did! I was just referring to the comment that they look like other products in the Market- there really isn't much u can do to make it completely different to them apart from making them round! It is business, a cowboy business. The guy would have had his mark up and chewy wasn't going to get much. The guy has quizzed him knowing he was going to take chewys ideas which he didn't have to do. I guess his business is slow and thinks this will help. There isn't much chewy can do but sometimes you have to trust people with ideas etc and it's not nice not being able to trust people. 
To be honest I don't trust any trades men (sorry guys), stupid quotes, doggy work, late arrivals too many cups of coffee. Dishonesty and bumping prices, too much happening. If we have anyone working on the house or something like the washing machine etc Dawn will stand there and watch them from start to finish to make sure she's happy!


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## chewy86

glad someone understands my thoughts on this


----------



## TerryH

I'm Terry Henderson, of Henderson Plastic Ltd and I have been at the receiving end of some vitreous bile from Gavin Tudor. He has said several things about me in this thread so I feel these have to be answered.
I got into dialogue with him at the end of November last year, he wanted a company to manufacture vivariums for him so I asked him for a drawing or sketch with dimensions so we could get started. I have never received a drawing from him to date, so all design for the vivarium you can see pictures of on page 28 of this thread was done by me. Two months for production of working product is an unusually long time for us, however as he changed his mind just about every week on how he wanted the vivarium, one week it had to have sliding doors (complete design change - find suitable door runners etc.), next it was the doors had to be hinged from the sides, the following week he decided that ventilators would be a good idea. I didn't really have a problem with any of this, it's the normal development of a product, what was getting my ire was his expectation that a design change would have no effect on the original budget price of the original product. He asked for a 'heat plate' of 12mm thick plastic to be welded into the roof , and this could be just a bit of 'scrap' we could use, so it wouldn't add to the cost - well gav the place is littered with just these bits of scrap and I'll get my guys to put them in in their spare time then- thanks. 
Gavin assumes that having got a price for a product, that he can add bells and whistles to it for no extra cost, well you can have what you like but there is a cost. But this is a difficult concept for him to understand.
I have read with interest of the failure of another business who manufactured polypropylene vivariums. I do not know the reason why the business failed, what I do know is that a one product company is always going to struggle. My company has been going for 20 years, we employ 12 people and we are plastics fabricators. We have expertise in plastics product design, plastic welding and which plastic material is suitable for which application. Over the years we have made thousands of different products in plastic for numerous different applications across many industries and scientific and leisure pursuits, so we have a wealth of experience with these materials. Because of this we offer a 5 year guarantee on all polypropylene vivariums. I do not know about snakes and reptiles, and would not attempt to guide anyone as to the best size of vivarium or terrarium for the animal they want to keep, I would expect the seller of the animal to best know these requirement, and you have a brilliant forum here at Reptile Forums UK to give huge amounts of advice, what I do know is that we will supply an uncompromising product for these requirements.
Gav has said the vivarium we sent him was rubbish, and was damaged and not much else. Well have a look at his pictures on pages 28 and 32,- I have copies if anyone needs them sending- The damage by the carrier can be clearly seen in one of the images. So this is our rubbish product. I got gavs famous 'LIVID' email after this and was given a proper dressing down about delays -well there was christmas- and price increases - I cant do any this about vat going up and oil prices going up- an not being in when he calls- well any adult needs time away from demanding children. Anyway I digress, there are a few options to the customer when something like this happens (item damaged in transit), reduction in price, replacement or a refund. Gav opted for refund. So we arranged collection and refund- cost to gav - zero. Bit odd I thought as he was hot to trot to get it into his reptile room for extensive 'testing'. In the next email I had from him was the instruction to 'not to do anything for two weeks'------?
So two months of work to be dropped just like that. Thanks.
You go your way gavin I'll go mine.


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## Speeple

Two sides to every story I guess, and that's a rather interesting response.


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## chewy86

That response was very humerous to me Terry and very cleverly worded on your part. Not to mention full of :censor:. 

True I told you that I wanted to try and offer a sliding door range aswell as hinged. True the item turned up damaged and after a week of constant emailing you refunded me. true I didnt think a 12mm plate welded to the ceiling would add as much cost to the build as you claimed it would. (because it wouldnt) The rest is bull :censor:.

Your design? You didnt know what a vivarium was when I contacted you terry! I gave you full instructions down to painfully simple details you struggled to get your head around. And you saw opportunity to rip me off and tried, but failed. You now decide to start a turf war out of spite and do this like a little upset boy. Fine by me. And please also take note I made sure the pictures of the vivs you want to use as evidence didnt show the damage and of course they didnt show the loose locks, bad cuts and upside down locks. Main reason being I didnt want to bad mouth you and felt if I told you where you had gone wrong this could be resolved. and I never told you I had dropped you but I suppose after the prices you gave and overall experiance it was quite obvious I wasnt returning for another go. But since I spoon fed you how to make the vivs and what parts to use over the cheap crap you advised to use, I may put some information up for you to copy for appropriate snakes for the viv sizes. Saves you having to do any research or learning anything to do with the hobby.

You were arrogant from the start, And now a proven liar as you claimed to have no interest in building these yourself. A rip off merchant and as to the "dressing down" email you needed to know that your customer felt the over priced build was thrown together, containing locks fitted loose and any which way not to mention the rushed shoddy cuts. that email was sent after a painfully long 3 month wait to recieve what I did. (crap)

My comments on you have been nothing but true and wouldnt of left my mouth if you had left it at that but what do you expect when you lie to someone take there idea, of which you knew nothing of previously to them contacting you. Then to come onto the forum you know he was using and try to coax business. 

Your greed has no boundries Terry, your that greedy your attempthing to sell them at the same price I am except I have to pay a fabricator labour plus add some on for myself. Not to mention myself being available for contact a hell of a lot more and offering honest and accurate advice. FOOL!!!

Some Proof of you constant lies and greed, you claimed that for ie a 6x2x1.5 viv to be built and sent out to me you couldnt possibly profit on less than £460, a 2x2x1.5 would be £300+ and using the excuse that your staff and overheads need paying for this. Not to mention p.p prices were going up. yes they did about 10% per TONNE terry not per gram. (What you would of though if you saw the price rise after this crappy tale)

A couple of weeks on however your material costs seem to have dropped and staff must have taken a pay cut? even a decrease in bills? as you are selling these shipped for £425 with the added problems that come with having to deal with customers. (strange) especially when you have no clue what you are selling or what requirements they need.

People will take out of this what they will, and if people want to buy from terry great. If they want some advice and someone that is available to actually answers questions and concerns. Not offer you a link to a thrown together website containing other manufacturers vivs photos. You will come to myself or alan at paragon vivs. one email/post a day doesnt help people in this community at all but is all you will get from terry.

pm or email me anytime with questions or problems, day or night and I will be glad to help. (Actually help)

Like you say Terry you go your way ill go mine and lets leave it at that im over the initial shock we have both had our say and had chance to defend against those opinions. And there is no need to say anymore, let our prices and products do the talking from here on in.

And to conclude I was eager to crack on and still am just not with a company who mark their products too high through greed. I recieved a much much cheaper quote off a person who was available allot more often and wasnt arrogant or arsey on the phone. So as expected I decided to go with them, thats why you were not required for further builds. 

No need to thank me for dropping you Terry, thank yourself as you putting prices up £150 a piece minimum through greed left me no choice. £300+ to supply a 2ft viv to me are you for real? 

What pleases me the most is you dont know the result of those tests and the vivs your selling arnt up to scratch, but you wouldnt know as you dont know what to test for the occupants to live in them safely. And also the changes I have had to make to solve this issue. 

Nice clean up job you have done on your thread so no one sees the truth about you, i would of deleted the response you gave stu though mate a bit embaressing on a reptile forum to divert a customer who needed help to a website that provided none.

Gav.


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## chewy86

Tommorow I am hoping to be bringing the forum and all herpers some very good news. fingers crossed for us all.

Chewy86


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## mrhoyo

Unless you're sending me a tenner in the post I'll be disappointed.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## ExoticInsectsUK

I think you started this asking for help and ideas building a plastic viv from the start so it wasn't done from research or testing so you may have also been spoon fed as well.
The whole point was to get cheaper plastic vivs and if he sell them cheaper then you for the same thing then you can sit back and save your self the work.
If the first viv ever built by them was wrong (Big deal) i bet most company's have to build many to get them right you can't expect them to be perfect from day one and wait for the money to come rolling in with out have to do any work your self


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## chewy86

nope not a 10er mate although if your hard up ill try and get a collection going for ya :whistling2:


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## chewy86

I took what was already available on the market, changed it to what I felt was for the best, for me that included not just going off what i thought but asking others (the customer). job done no spoon feeding and for a cheaper price to competitors at the time. 

He is selling them at the same price as me not cheaper mate please follow the conversation, before assuming. And Its not that the first one turned up wrong its the fact it was a crap job. ie rigid edges/cuts, loose fitting upside down locks (no excuse, rush job) and not to mention a massive mark up in price. Trying to make a quick £ rather than trying to meet his customers requirements.

In regards to work like yourself the work comes in the running of the shop, over the actual producing the goods you sell mate. (unless you do make all the products you sell in your shop, if so I apologise)

Asking forum members for there opinions on how they would like their vivs to offer, isnt the cause of this mate. the cause is the fact someone saw a chance to cut out the middle man and try and compete. And that alone.
This was always a risk for the project and thats fine but i hate liars and sly vindictive people, in business or general i struggle to trust anything they say from there on in.

I will not be the first one to walk away from this project through greed, lets just put it that way.

Chewy86.


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