# Leopard Gecko Genetics Q



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I think I've worked it out, but just to confirm (yeah, I know, I should know, but codominant genes in leos still seriously confuse me sometimes!)

I have 8 eggs from
Mack snow x Enigma

and 2 eggs (with plenty more to come I'm sure) from
Tremper Enigma het Blizzard (both parents same)

Can anyone confirm the offspring chances please?


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## Demon9374 (Apr 22, 2009)

Reptile Genetics Calculator


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

Mack x Enigma:
1/4 Normal
1/4 Mack
1/4 Enigma
1/4 Mack Enigma

Tremper Enigma het Blizzard x Tremper Enigma het Blizzard (assuming both are [1C] Enigmas):
1/16 Tremper Blizzard
2/16 Tremper het Blizzard
1/16 Tremper
2/16 Tremper [1C] Enigma Blizzard
4/16 Tremper [1C] Enigma het Blizzard
2/16 Tremper [1C] Enigma
1/16 Tremper [2C] Enigma Blizzard
2/16 Tremper [2C] Enigma het Blizzard
1/16 Tremper [2C] Enigma

This basically comes out as:
1/16 Tremper Blizzard
3/16 Tremper 66% het Blizzard
3/16 Tremper Enigma Blizzard (33% [2C] Enigma)
9/16 Tremper Enigma 66% het Blizzard (33% [2C] Enigma)


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

HadesDragons said:


> This basically comes out as:
> 1/16 Tremper Blizzard
> 3/16 Tremper 66% het Blizzard
> 3/16 Enigma Blizzard (33% [2C] Enigma)
> 9/16 Enigma 66% het Blizzard (33% [2C] Enigma)


quite incorrect.

stick with the above part, the summary is screwed.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

Slurm said:


> quite incorrect.
> 
> stick with the above part, the summary is screwed.


Apologies, I missed out "Tremper" in the last two (both parents are ****, so I hadn't even included it in the calculations - I meant to put it back in at the end but forgot :blush, it should read:

1/16 Tremper Blizzard
3/16 Tremper 66% het Blizzard
3/16 Tremper Enigma Blizzard (33% [2C] Enigma)
9/16 Tremper Enigma 66% het Blizzard (33% [2C] Enigma)



*1/16 "Tremper Blizzard"* (simple genetics)

2/16 Tremper het Blizzard + 1/16 Tremper = _*3/16 "Tremper 66% het Blizzard"*_ (you can't differentiate the het Blizzards from the non-het Blizzards)

2/16 Tremper [1C] Enigma Blizzard + 1/16 Tremper [2C] Enigma Blizzard = _*3/16 "Tremper Enigma Blizzard"*_; 2/3 will be [1C] Enigma, 1/3 [2C] Enigma. Enigma's dominant so you can't differentiate - het Enigma looks the same as **** Enigma. Therefore I'd call them "33% [2C] Enigma Blizzard"

4/16 Tremper [1C] Enigma het Blizzard + 2/16 Tremper [1C] Enigma + 2/16 Tremper [2C] Enigma het Blizzard + 1/16 Tremper [2C] Enigma = _*9/16 "Tremper Enigma 66% het blizzard"*_. All of these will look the same - Tremper Enigmas. you can't differentiate het and non-het blizzard, and you can't differentiate het and **** Enigma. Therefore 9/16 are visual Tremper Enigmas. Of these 9/16, 6/16 are het Blizzard (therefore all are "66% het Blizzard"). 3/16 should statistically be [2C] Enigma (therefore all are "33% [2C] Enigma"). So I'd call them "Tremper Enigma 66% het Blizzard, 33% [2C] Enigma".


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

i really dont advise anyone to put an enigma with an enigma....

could get real messy...


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Slurm said:


> i really dont advise anyone to put an enigma with an enigma....
> 
> could get real messy...


How so? I was sold the pair by a very well respected EU breeder, who didn't mention any problems breeding enigma/enigma, and in fact recommended that this pair be bred together to me. I'm not a big leopard gecko breeder, I thought the adults were pretty more than wanting a specific outcome. I can of course seperate them.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Athravan said:


> How so? I was sold the pair by a very well respected EU breeder, who didn't mention any problems breeding enigma/enigma, and in fact recommended that this pair be bred together to me. I'm not a big leopard gecko breeder, I thought the adults were pretty more than wanting a specific outcome. I can of course seperate them.


Some people believe crossing Enigma with Enigma can increase the chances of offspring expressing the "Enigma syndrome". I haven't seen any evidence of it however.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

MrMike said:


> Some people believe crossing Enigma with Enigma can increase the chances of offspring expressing the "Enigma syndrome". I haven't seen any evidence of it however.


Agreed, there so far has been no evidence that enigma x enigma causes any more problems than enigma x non enigma.

Unless someone has any links to some evidence or findings?


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

I have actually Emailed quite a few of the top breeders in the USA and Europe about this I even put the reply from one of them up on here! but it was misread and quoted!, but all without commiting themselves have said that they would not do it because of the symtoms you get just from Enigma x normal!,
on reading some of their replies it led me to believe some of them had already done it and had very bad outcomes,(this was two of the top ones!), 
we all know this is a big problem with Enigmas so why would you want to make more of a chance of greater problems,
I think the fact we havent heard anything bad about breeding them together is more likely to be because top breeders have more sense to do that! or they have done it and dont really want to put out a report on it,
Theres no way I would ever think about doing it for the simple reason is I put to sleep probably 6-8 Enigma offspring last year because of really bad symtoms so why on earth would I want to make the chance greater by Enigma x Enigma crossing.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

tonkaz0 said:


> I have actually Emailed quite a few of the top breeders in the USA and Europe about this I even put the reply from one of them up on here! but it was misread and quoted!, but all without commiting themselves have said that they would not do it because of the symtoms you get just from Enigma x normal!,
> on reading some of their replies it led me to believe some of them had already done it and had very bad outcomes,(this was two of the top ones!),
> we all know this is a big problem with Enigmas so why would you want to make more of a chance of greater problems,
> I think the fact we havent heard anything bad about breeding them together is more likely to be because top breeders have more sense to do that! or they have done it and dont really want to put out a report on it,
> Theres no way I would ever think about doing it for the simple reason is I put to sleep probably 6-8 Enigma offspring last year because of really bad symtoms so why on earth would I want to make the chance greater by Enigma x Enigma crossing.


6-8 being PTS :gasp: That is a lot - obviously if I had that sort of outcome I wouldn't continue breeding from those adults either, although I'm not sure what sort of numbers you deal in. I hatched about 10 out last year and none had any problems whatsoever and I've never needed to have any leopard gecko I've bred PTS for health problems, but they weren't enigma x enigma, so I will email the breeder I got them from and ask, but he did specifically say they were a breeding pair.


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

That was from 6 different Enigma females! all with different dads! each probably laid 8-10 eggs in the season, so possiblily out of 60ish eggs, the dads also sired ok babies with other girls!,
And to be honest some traders will tell you anything wont they?, last year quite a well know and respected leo breeder at Kidderminster told the chap who came up with me it was perfectly ok to start breeding your leos at 30-35g, now would you do that if a dealer told you?.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

tonkaz0 said:


> That was from 6 different Enigma females! all with different dads! each probably laid 8-10 eggs in the season, so possiblily out of 60ish eggs, the dads also sired ok babies with other girls!,
> And to be honest some traders will tell you anything wont they?, last year quite a well know and respected leo breeder at Kidderminster told the chap who came up with me it was perfectly ok to start breeding your leos at 30-35g, now would you do that if a dealer told you?.


Sorry you had to go through having to PTS that many. But, a couple of top breeders opinions doesn't consitute evidence for me. Would I do it myself? If both parents were 110% healthy then yes probably. I know some people are trying it this year and they have said they will share any findings.


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

Actually it was not last season but the season before my mistake I lose a year! not that it makes a difference, since then four of the girls have been rehomed as pets!, and the only Enigmas I have now are 2 novas and 2 MackBells and no males at all,
Also it was more than just a couple of the top breeders that I emailed,
But good luck to the ones you say are doing it Mike because as much as you say there isnt any evidence of any problems with Enigma x Enigma crossings I have not seen any that says tha anyone has done it with good results either! and that speaks volumes to me as well, I dont think Ive seen any for sale anywhere that says they are Enigma x Enigma, I think the only post Ive ever seen about it was in the USA and Im sure it said that none of the eggs hatched and were all still born or infertile! I`ll see if I can find it again, so we`ll just have to wait see.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

I dont really wish to discuss any numbers of PTS/effected leos on an open forum. Suffice it to say there is a risk with enigmas having issues, so logic dictates that putting an enigma with another enigma increases that chance, as you now have a chance of issues coming from either parent.

The risk is also increased by the fact you have not seen the enigma grow up and it could of had minor issues prior to adulthood.

Now whether enigma x enigma is more of a risk than double a single enigma parent is open to debate.

Quite simply i wouldnt want to increase the risk as imo it holds little to no increase in benefit.

Also something that needs saying is most do not wish to discuss the negative sides of their hobby. I know for a fact that one big breeder, when asked publically says "all ok no probs" in regards to the enigma lines yet to friends has admitted having no end of problems.

I go by what I have learned myself or know from a few other trusted sources, not what people say publically.


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