# risks of breeding abino to albino?



## carly16v

some ppl have told me if u breed albino boas together your full clutch will be albino. other ppl have said there are risks to this. what are the risks and has n e one had experiences with it. thanks all
xx


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## bladeblaster

carly16v said:


> some ppl have told me if u breed albino boas together your full clutch will be albino. other ppl have said there are risks to this. what are the risks and has n e one had experiences with it. thanks all
> xx


the risks are babies with eye defects, which can be blindness or entirely missing eyes.

It's not always the case but it is a risk


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## ian14

I believe that the only difficulty is with albino boas, in that there are two genetically different strains (kahl and sharp) which are incompatible with each other.
I have also read that there can be problems with breeding albino to albino hognoses.
In general though, there is no real problem with albino x albino pairings.


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## carly16v

yes i understand kahl and sharp wont mix. but what bout 2 kahls. and y is it that they can be deformed, surely something else. eg dh sunglow also carries the albino gene but is perfectly suitable to breed together.


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## bladeblaster

carly16v said:


> yes i understand kahl and sharp wont mix. but what bout 2 kahls. and y is it that they can be deformed, surely something else. eg dh sunglow also carries the albino gene but is perfectly suitable to breed together.


but a DH sunglow is only het albino, 2 sunglows (homozygous) albinos would carry the same risk.

The exact reason for the defects is not 100% unknown, it could be that the original animals carried eye defects, or it could be an inbreeding issue.


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## paulh

bladeblaster said:


> The exact reason for the defects is not 100% unknown, it could be that the original animals carried eye defects, or it could be an inbreeding issue.


Not all albino X albino boa matings produce babies with eye defects. Matings of albino X albino in most other snake species do not produce problems. And eye defects can occur in nonalbinos. I've seen them in timber rattlesnakes and an Indian python. So the eye problems may be an environmental issue and not genetic at all. There is a lot of work to be done before the question is marked solved.


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## Caz

paulh said:


> Not all albino X albino boa matings produce babies with eye defects. Matings of albino X albino in most other snake species do not produce problems. And eye defects can occur in nonalbinos. I've seen them in timber rattlesnakes and an Indian python. So the eye problems may be an environmental issue and not genetic at all. There is a lot of work to be done before the question is marked solved.


 
The problem has been documented in 1 clutch of kahl albinos. Sharp albino to albino matings have never produced any documented cases of eye problems.

This question has been asked a few times both here and on US/EU forums and every time I ask the question 'who has ever seen the problem for themselves in a new born litter..?' Never an answer from someone who has actually seen the deformity in a litter.

There are many albino to albino boas bred each year. I know of 3 clutches last year 2 sharp and one kahl that didn't produce any 'defective' young.

HTH


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## ndixon7868

my understanding is that the problems arose when peter Kahl first started the project with one boa that was first out crossed to a bci and then inbred for many generations. most albino's have been so out crossed now that you should not get any of these problems any more. that said it is perhaps still a better option to breed visual to het or visual to sunglow.

same as the Jungles, another project that was so inbred (again by Peter Kahl) and was until recently thought that a super jungle will never reproduce as they are all infertile because of it. but a lot of super jungles have recently been produced from out crossed parents and there is now at least one female super jungle that is gravid in the states.


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## Caz

Caz said:


> The problem has been documented in 1 clutch of kahl albinos. Sharp albino to albino matings have never produced any documented cases of eye problems.
> 
> This question has been asked a few times both here and on US/EU forums and every time I ask the question 'who has ever seen the problem for themselves in a new born litter..?' Never an answer from someone who has actually seen the deformity in a litter.
> 
> There are many albino to albino boas bred each year. I know of 3 clutches last year 2 sharp and one kahl that didn't produce any 'defective' young.
> 
> HTH





ndixon7868 said:


> my understanding is that the problems arose when peter Kahl first started the project with one boa that was first out crossed to a bci and then inbred for many generations. most albino's have been so out crossed now that you should not get any of these problems any more. *that said it is perhaps still a better option to breed visual to het or visual to sunglow*.
> 
> same as the Jungles, another project that was so inbred (again by Peter Kahl) and was until recently thought that a super jungle will never reproduce as they are all infertile because of it. but a lot of super jungles have recently been produced from out crossed parents and there is now at least one female super jungle that is gravid in the states.


I never quite get this though as genetically you're acheiving the same thing, so a smaller percentage of visual albinos 'should' also have the associated eye defects.

Which is why I agree with the rest of what you've said above and disagree that there is a problem 'generally' with inherent eye defects in albino to albino matings..


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## bladeblaster

bladeblaster said:


> the risks are babies with eye defects, which can be blindness or entirely missing eyes.
> 
> It's not always the case but it is a risk





paulh said:


> Not all albino X albino boa matings produce babies with eye defects. Matings of albino X albino in most other snake species do not produce problems. And eye defects can occur in nonalbinos. I've seen them in timber rattlesnakes and an Indian python. So the eye problems may be an environmental issue and not genetic at all. There is a lot of work to be done before the question is marked solved.


That is what I said.


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## carly16v

any other ppl on here with first hand experience of the deformaties.
so if a brother and sister albino r bred together there is more of a chance of it rather than two albinos from completly different sources.
thanks
x


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## bladeblaster

carly16v said:


> any other ppl on here with first hand experience of the deformaties.
> so if a brother and sister albino r bred together there is more of a chance of it rather than two albinos from completly different sources.
> thanks
> x


IMO yes.


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## Caz

carly16v said:


> any other ppl on here with first hand experience of the deformaties.
> so if a brother and sister albino r bred together there is more of a chance of it rather than two albinos from completly different sources.
> thanks
> x


No actual data proof of this so...


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## andybe18

this is interesting, esp cos a couple of years ago when considering buying 2 aklbino boas I got universally slated on this forum for thinking of breeding them.........


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## bladeblaster

andybe18 said:


> this is interesting, esp cos a couple of years ago when considering buying 2 aklbino boas I got universally slated on this forum for thinking of breeding them.........


personally I wouldn't, but each breeder to their own. If no one pushed the boundaries then we wouldn't have most of the captive species we have now. : victory:


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## Caz

andybe18 said:


> this is interesting, esp cos a couple of years ago when considering buying 2 aklbino boas I got universally slated on this forum for thinking of breeding them.........


Not surprised. Seems to be based on one litter of Kahl albino to albino. Almost like folklore. It's a shame there's no records of everyones personal albino to albino matings.



bladeblaster said:


> personally I wouldn't, but each breeder to their own. If no one pushed the boundaries then we wouldn't have most of the captive species we have now. : victory:


I wont later this year but only because of other morph projects with those animals, so i'll be no help!


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## StuG

Caz said:


> Not surprised. Seems to be based on one litter of Kahl albino to albino. Almost like folklore. It's a shame there's no records of everyones personal albino to albino matings.
> 
> 
> 
> I wont later this year but only because of other morph projects with those animals, so i'll be no help!


The thing is tho if you were a boa breeder and had tried Albino to Albino and had a bad,deformed or kinked litter then i dont think its likely you would advertise the fact. Alot of people want to sell their litters and people ask to see the parents,Albino and albino would definately put some off buying.


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## Caz

Stu.G said:


> The thing is tho if you were a boa breeder and had tried Albino to Albino and had a bad,deformed or kinked litter then i dont think its likely you would advertise the fact. Alot of people want to sell their litters and people ask to see the parents,Albino and albino would definately put some off buying.


Mmmm I see what you're saying and know it's true to some extent esp' in the Royal Morph world (very sadly.) However I know 4 'bigish' US/EU boa breeders well enough that they'd tell me if they had had eye deformed litters from albino x albino pairings. As said I also know 1 UK and 2 EU breeders who had Albino to albino litters last year with no problems what so ever.
I can't see why an albino new born from an albino x albino pairing would be genetically 'weaker' than a visual from a het x litter? Perhaps the people who would be put off buying have listened to the hype based on one Kahl litter? Perhaps the same people also wont let their snakes lay next to them in case they're sizing them up?:lol2:

I still don't see why albino x albino should throw out deformities and het x albino doesn't. If there is a weak gene then it should throw it out in visual off-spring in proportional numbers regardless of how those visuals are obtained.


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## Douggygar

Caz said:


> The problem has been documented in 1 clutch of kahl albinos. Sharp albino to albino matings have never produced any documented cases of eye problems.
> 
> This question has been asked a few times both here and on US/EU forums and every time I ask the question 'who has ever seen the problem for themselves in a new born litter..?' Never an answer from someone who has actually seen the deformity in a litter.
> 
> There are many albino to albino boas bred each year. I know of 3 clutches last year 2 sharp and one kahl that didn't produce any 'defective' young.
> 
> HTH


I realize how old this is, but to reply to your question, I purchased a pair of triple hets ( sharp, blood, type 2 anery ) and paired them together... the female gave me 8 babies. Of those 8 babies, there was one sharp blood with 2 bad eyes. Two sharps with 1 bad eye. And 1 sharp with no bad eyes. The pair were litter mates. 5 years old and good body conditions etc when they mated, and there was a weeks worth of high temperature spike while she was gravid. So a few factors could have played into this. One being incubation temps, another being the fact that the snakes were infact related. However.. a few key points here.. this was the first generation of inbreeding ( I am in regular contact with the breeder in which the parents of the litter came from ), this was obviously a het to het pairing, this IS the sharp albino genetic being discussed. It's quite unfortunate that this happened but hopefully my information helped you a bit or at least answered some of your question if you haven't found any since you asked many years ago lol


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## Malc

Douggygar said:


> I realize how old this is, <SNIP>


A informative post, but the OP was Last seen Sep 14, 2013 so of no use to them, but may be useful to others.


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