# Nutritional Information



## Luke (May 19, 2005)

After reading some interesting articles on Arcadias website, I read with great interest some of the nutritional values of some of the more popular livefoods we feed.
After speaking with John I asked if I could put some pics up of how I have recorded the information to make it easy to read at hand. I got permission from John so here they are feel free to use/print off etc. If its useful maybe it could be made a stickyin this section.

The Initial chart:










Moisture percentage barchart










Protein percentage barchart










Fat percentage barchart










Calcium percentage barchart


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

I think first we need to see your sources for the information. There are variables that will effect the percentages you are showing, which need to be made clear before this information is used. 

Just at first glance that information about butter worms looks way off, but would need to look at the source to see if its just a mistake or some variable that is skewed for some reason. Butter worms got that name for a reason


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

Hey Jarich

Its on the arcadia site i found it here

The D3 Cycle : Arcadia Reptile

hope this helps


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Ok, I suppose it would be helpful to contact John and find out where he is getting that information from and why he is using such a limited source. The source is shown as "online retailers" which would be like him saying his T5s are the highest output lights just because he says so. Of course the guys selling them say they are the most nutritious. 

Some of that information is off likely because the sources arent great and there was probably only one test done. Some is likely different because there are variables like feed sources that will have a great effect on the outcome (another reason that sources are needed), but some of that is just plain wrong. Silkworms do not have twice as much calcium as black soldier fly larvae (calci worms) unless you are injecting them with calcium before you test them. Butter worms are one of the worst sources of calcium out there, especially if they aren't gutloaded. Just as one example, here is Mark Finke's work on four different species including the calci worms and butter worms. 
Complete Nutrient Content of Four Species of Feeder Insects - Finke - 2012 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library

There is a lot of very useful information out there, and Id be happy to get you started on some articles to read. I also hope John updates his research and that article before any others get the wrong idea about those food sources.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

all of the info came for the UKs biggest farm and as far as I am concerned is the best that we can work with at present.

The rest came from Silkworm.com and alike

The purpose of this is to raise awearness of the nasty and ineffective food sources that we have fed for years. To encourage us all as keepers to feed a wider variety and as such use decent systems like my lamps (which are currently the most powerful in terms of wavlength fixed output and assessed completely independantly) to help captive animals thrive in captivity.

There may be variations from food source batch to batch but in real terms I still feel this is a good guide.

we do not sell foods, I'm not intrested in such things I am however interested in providing as good as environment as possible. 

John


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> all of the info came for the UKs biggest farm and *as far as I am concerned is the best that we can work with at present.*
> 
> The rest came from Silkworm.com and alike
> 
> ...


Youre right in saying that its great to make people aware of the insufficiencies of the food items that are commonly fed. However, that awareness is not being raised if you are furthering bad information without doing the necessary research on it. Youre seen as a reputable source of information due to your expertise on lighting, so people will trust your word on other things if you have it up on your site. That means you have a responsibility for the accuracy of the information you put up. Asking only the producers of the food item what they think rather than getting independent research seems pretty lacking, doesn't it? Its wrong to say that these are the best sources you can work with at present, especially when so much good information and research is available for you to easily access from independent sources. Like you said, you wouldnt expect anyone to necessarily believe your claims about the HO T5 if it wasn't independently tested and assessed. 

What your article claims is that variety is key, as is understanding the nutritive values of those food items. That is great and I agree wholeheartedly, but in order for that variety to be useful the correct information must be presented. You say that people shouldn't just make use of traditional insects as staple items because they are nutritionally lacking. The problem is that if people use your chart and switch from crickets and mealworms to butter worms or silkworms, they aren't really changing much in terms of nutritional deficiencies. Variety is great, but if the breadth of that variety is simply other deficient insects, instead of just one or two deficient insects, the overall nutrition is still lacking. 

I want to be clear that I am not writing this simply to be a huge pain in the ass (though that may be the case anyway  ) but rather to help you spread more accurate information that will be useful to others. Many people will come to your site looking for information, so you have the opportunity to really spread information in a way that others dont. I would like to send you some references to help your research increase and help you with that particular article so that it is more useful to keepers everywhere if you are interested.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Again, the info given was supplied by one of europes biggest farms and via their independent testing of the food sources.

My advice is not to stop feeding bugs but to mix it right up and to offer good variety. This combined with being able to provide a wild index should help greatly in the constant fight against the biggest killer of captive reptiles. The conditions that link together and are called MBD are totally avoidable and just it's existence shows that we still have a huge way to go until our hobby becomes blameless.

So yeah I will read any papers and adjust my advice where required. But I stand with our work so far as it is by far the most accurate data that is available in our trade and provided independently by our trade.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Again, the info given was supplied by one of europes biggest farms and via their independent testing of the food sources.
> 
> My advice is not to stop feeding bugs but to mix it right up and to offer good variety. This combined with being able to provide a wild index should help greatly in the constant fight against the biggest killer of captive reptiles. The conditions that link together and are called MBD are totally avoidable and just it's existence shows that we still have a huge way to go until our hobby becomes blameless.
> 
> So yeah I will read any papers and adjust my advice where required. *But I stand with our work so far as it is by far the most accurate data that is available in our trade and provided independently by our trade*.


John, I like the way you take the time to post here and you seem to be a really good guy. I know you are here to help people keep healthier reptiles, and I respect that greatly. I too am after that same goal. Your lights are pretty exceptional and I dont want to make you think I dont appreciate what you are helping to do in this industry in that particular field. However, the applicability of that knowledge, and the accuracy of other information on your site could be improved in my opinion. 

*Part* of the information you showed was given by one of Europe's biggest suppliers, which is why it pretty much matches with independent testing from other sources. The rest is from a very unreliable source (not sure who Silkworm.com is, but that website is no longer up) and should be changed when your programmer has the chance to do so. Its sort of like if you saw that Peregrine Livefoods had an article about lighting, saying how important it was, but then listed Exoterra compact bulbs as being the best UVB bulb available, and cited as their source, Exoterra. I would think that you would probably contact Peregrine and ask them to rectify the problem as soon as possible, even though they are a feeder prey company and not a lighting company. 

Butter worms are around 25% fat (you show them at 5%), have very small amounts of calcium and an absolutely terrible Ca ratio (you show them at 2 when in fact they are closer to 0.05, incidentally around the same as mealworms). Silkworms do not have anywhere near the amount of calcium that Calci worms have (a small hint in the name there  ) yet you list them as having twice as much calcium. These are not minor mistakes, and could easily lead people to creating very deficient diets for their reptiles, as this thread shows. For someone so proud of their research in other areas, it seems this is one area you need to do more research in. Here are some articles you could start with reading for general nutritional contents of insects:

Bernard, J.B., Allen, M.E, Ullrey, D.E. 1997. "Feeding Captive Insectivorous Animals: Nutritional Aspects of Insects as Food" AZA. Nutr Adv Grp Handbook. 1-7.

Allen, M.E. 1989. Nutritional Aspects of Insectivory. Doct. Diss. Mich State. E. Lansing, MI

Finke, M.D. 2002. "Complete Nutrient Composition of Commercially Raised Invertebrates Used as Food for Insectivores" Zoo Biology. 21:286-293.

Finke, M.D. "Insects and Related Arthropods: A Nutritional Primer for Rehabilitators" Jrnl of Wldlfe Rehab 27:14-27.

Girard and Brown. 1999. "Energetics of Free Ranging Mammals, Reptiles and Birds" Annual Rvw Nutrt. 19: 247-278.

Oonincx, D.G.A.B., Dierenfeld, E.S. 2011. "An Investigation Into the Chemical Composition of Alternative Invertebrate Prey" Zoo Biology 29:1-15.

You also failed to mention _anything_ about the most important development in the use of these feeders in reptile husbandry, something that helps prevent the disease you speak of, that of gut loading to reduce the incidence of MBD and other nutritional diseases. Since you just got done mentioning that this is "the biggest killer of captive reptiles" (I would disagree with that assessment, but I digress), its odd that you leave out such a simple aid in reducing its incidence, or any mention of the fact that simply feeding these deficient prey a high calcium and nutrient rich diet increases their nutrition ten fold. Its possible that you are not aware of this, so here are some good starter articles:

Hunt, A.S. Ward, A.M. Ferguson, G. 2001 "Effects of a High Calcium Diet on Gut Loading in Varying Ages of Crickets and Mealworms" Proc NAG 4th Conf Zoo Wldlife Nutr. 94-102

Allen, M.E Oftedal, O.T. 1989. "Dietary Manipulation of the Calcium Content of Feed Crickets" Jrnl Of Zoo Wldlife Med. 20:1 26-33

McClements, R.D. Lintzenich, B.A Slifka, K.A 2003 "Calcium and Insect Gut-Loading: The Development of a Protocol for Achieving the Best Ca Ratio for Insectivorous Animals" Nutr Adv Group

Finke, M.D. 2003. "Gut Loading to Enhance the Nutrient Content of Insects as Food for Reptiles: A Mathematical Approach" Zoo Biology 22:147-162.

Finke, M.D. Dunham, S.U., Cole, J.S. 2004. "An Evaluation of Various Calcium Fortified High Moisture Commercial Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domestics" Jrnl Herp Med Surg. 14:2. 17-20.

Oonincx, D.G.A.B., van der Poel, A.F.B 2011. "Effects of Diet on the Chemical Composition of Migratory Locusts" Zoo Biology 30:9-18. 

(I think almost all of these articles can be found for free online, but if you have troubles finding them let me know.)

So please do start reading. These are articles that can help you adapt your website to show a more accurate source of information instead of promoting bad information. I know you dont want to contribute to reptiles with bad nutrition, and I hope you are able to adapt your site soon.

As for your work being "by far the most accurate data available", I would say that it is good, yes, and even exceptional in places, but that your perspective alone might be what makes it the "most accurate".


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