# Help Morgan the Orca!



## Zoo-Man

Morgan the Orca was found sick off the coast of Holland, taken to Loro parque in tenerife & is now healthy & ready to be released again. Scientists have located her family from Morgan's calls, & they have everything planned out. But Loro Parque aren't keen on allowing Morgan to return back to the wild. Please sign the petition & make Loro Parque give Morgan her freedom once more.

Animals Petition: FREE ORCA MORGAN | Change.org


----------



## Devi

From what I've heard from both sides it's still very much undecided if her family have definitely been found, and if they will accept her back at all. Morgan has now been away from her family for 6 months after being found starving, nobody knows how she got in this state but it can be caused by being pushed out of the family pod or being unable to hunt properly for some reason.
Harderwijk are not new at this game and have performed quite a few successful releases of marine mammals, and they, in their expert opinion, decided that she couldn't be released, not for any money grabbing selfish reason, but because they decided it was best for the animal.


----------



## Loderuna

Surely a release should be tried though - she can be fitted with a transmitter so she can be monitored. May well have been better to put her to sleep in the first place if the chances of return to the wild were small.


----------



## Devi

Loderuna said:


> Surely a release should be tried though - she can be fitted with a transmitter so she can be monitored. May well have been better to put her to sleep in the first place if the chances of return to the wild were small.


They've tried releases with slim chances of success before, Keiko being a prime example, it usually ends up in the death of the animal. It's a little sad that you think she should be killed rather than be treated for her problems, she will have a full and stimulating life in captivity, it's not as interesting as out in the wild maybe, but it also has easy food and no predators, which is a pretty good compromise imo.


----------



## Loderuna

I know facilities have improved hugely over the years, but I think the animal deserves a chance to go back to the wild, given that it hasn't been in captivity that long - and it seems the length of the stay in captivity is not wholly due to any needs of the animal. Surely this would be better than living decades in a pool? I don't think it would be a full and interesting life at all.


----------



## RedTiger

I agree, the whale should be released.


----------



## Rum_Kitty

Devi said:


> They've tried releases with slim chances of success before, Keiko being a prime example, it usually ends up in the death of the animal. It's a little sad that you think she should be killed rather than be treated for her problems, she will have a full and stimulating life in captivity, it's not as interesting as out in the wild maybe, but it also has easy food and no predators, which is a pretty good compromise imo.


Wasn't Keiko in captivity most of his life though? it's not really the same thing.


----------



## Devi

If we are going to be precise, Morgan has also been in captivity most of her life, having been found alone as a very young animal who should not have been away from her mother.
Maybe her mother died, maybe she abandoned her, but either way, she did not know how to hunt and subsequently was starving to death. She was saved by a cetacean rescue centre who have deemed her as unsuitable for return to the wild as they believe there is a very high chance she will die. This centre are specialists in releasing marine mammals and perform many releases every year, they know what they're talking about.
She has now been found a new home with people at the forefront of cetacean research who have introduced her to a new pod who are now her family. 
The proposal made by certain groups is that she be taken from this family, and it should be known that Orca form very strong bonds and often live in the same group for life, and thrown into the sea where it is likely that she will die.
I fully support animal rights, I am very pro conservation, but I do believe that there are times where an individual is not suited to life in the wild, whether it be a badger, a tiger, or an Orca, and can be best served by living in a protected environment.


----------



## DavieB

Devi said:


> If we are going to be precise, Morgan has also been in captivity most of her life, having been found alone as a very young animal who should not have been away from her mother.
> Maybe her mother died, maybe she abandoned her, but either way, she did not know how to hunt and subsequently was starving to death. She was saved by a cetacean rescue centre who have deemed her as unsuitable for return to the wild as they believe there is a very high chance she will die. This centre are specialists in releasing marine mammals and perform many releases every year, they know what they're talking about.
> She has now been found a new home with people at the forefront of cetacean research who have introduced her to a new pod who are now her family.
> The proposal made by certain groups is that she be taken from this family, and it should be known that Orca form very strong bonds and often live in the same group for life, and thrown into the sea where it is likely that she will die.
> I fully support animal rights, I am very pro conservation, but I do believe that there are times where an individual is not suited to life in the wild, whether it be a badger, a tiger, or an Orca, and can be best served by living in a protected environment.


Got to agree with this in this case, the wild is not always the answer.


----------



## Shell195

Devi said:


> If we are going to be precise, Morgan has also been in captivity most of her life, having been found alone as a very young animal who should not have been away from her mother.
> Maybe her mother died, maybe she abandoned her, but either way, she did not know how to hunt and subsequently was starving to death. She was saved by a cetacean rescue centre who have deemed her as unsuitable for return to the wild as they believe there is a very high chance she will die. This centre are specialists in releasing marine mammals and perform many releases every year, they know what they're talking about.
> She has now been found a new home with people at the forefront of cetacean research who have introduced her to a new pod who are now her family.
> The proposal made by certain groups is that she be taken from this family, and it should be known that Orca form very strong bonds and often live in the same group for life, and thrown into the sea where it is likely that she will die.
> I fully support animal rights, I am very pro conservation, but I do believe that there are times where an individual is not suited to life in the wild, whether it be a badger, a tiger, or an Orca, and can be best served by living in a protected environment.


 

It never mentioned this on the petition information so people were commenting on what they had been told. If Morgan has been found a new pod and she is happy then I think she should stay, taking her away from her new family and releasing her into the ocean wouldnt be in her best interests at this present time


----------



## Jackie-K

*Morgan*

Hi, thanks for posting the petition in here.

I would like to take the opportunity to clarify on a couple of comments made.

Morgan was approximately 3 years old when found in June 2010, this means she would have finished nursing from her mother and would have been catching her own food (although still learning hunting techniques). She was starving, had an upper respiratory infection and intestinal parasites.
The Dolphinarium Harderwijk had to gain a permit to rescue her which they were granted on the condition she was returned to ocean as soon as she was healthy.
By July 2010 she was given a clean bill of health by the Dolphinarium and by the beginning of August 2010 was on show to the public and being trained to do simple tricks.
The organization who usually rescue marine wildlife in this area are SOS with dolphinarium assistance however SOS refused to step in once they found that Sea World had already been contacted. DH has had previous 'trades' with Sea World.

It is common knowledge with any wildlife rescue organization that wildlife, if the intention is to rehabilitate and release back to the wild, would never be exposed to the general public as human contact is to be kept to a minimum. 
Dolphianrium Harderwijks profits were vastly increased from visitors to see Morgan from August to October 2010.

Initially DH (Dolphinarium Harderwijk) had allowed international orca experts access to Morgan to record vocal signals to match to pods in the ocean to find her family. By December 2010 DH announced Morgan would not survive back in the wild then refused the experts to continue recordings and gaining DNA samples.

It took until August 2011 for the Orca Coaltion (an organization of lawyers and orca specialists) to get a court hearing where the judge ordered DH to allow the experts access to Morgan to continue their research to find Morgans pod. DH were also ordered by the judge to allow Morgan to socialize with the dolphins at the aquarium. Orca are very sociable and need companionship. This never happened and it came out at the court hearing in November that the dolphins there had herpes virus which is transmissible, this should have been brought up at the court hearing in August.

By the time it went back to court in November, Morgans relatives had been located, no one knows what happened to her mother and her mother has not been found however as a blood relative and with Morgan being a young female there was an excellent chance that she would be accepted into this pod. Its also important to note here that while there were a team of independat orca experts working to try and free Morgan, on discovery of Morgans relatives 4 of the 7 experts brought in BY the Dolphinarium themselves, switched sides and agreed she should be released.

There was and still is, a solid rehabilitation and release plan for Morgan starting with a sea pen in Sto, Norway. No one knows how long it would be before Morgan would be completely free, could have been anything from a few months to, well, as long as it took. She would have learned how to catch her own food again, been desensitized to humans and gradually would have been fitted with a transmitter and gone out for 'boat walks'.
At no time was there ever any plan to 'just put her back in the ocean' to fend for herself. The transmitter would have allowed ongoing supervision and should she get into any trouble once released, the team could have stepped in, captivity was a last resort.

Many marine mammals have been successfully released in the past, bottlenose dolphins, pilot whales, false killer whales, belugas. Keiko's release, I dont know why people say this was unsucessful. Keiko had been in captivity for over 20 years, he spent 5 years free, the first couple of years in sea pens in Northern California then Iceland, he learned to hunt again, went out on boat walks and eventually took off by himself and made his way to Norway. He interacted with other orca (the 'jury's still out on whether he fathered any calves'), yes, he sought out human companionship but again, after 20 years in captivity, is that really any surprize. He died in 2003 from suspected pneumonia (he was taken out of captivity in 1998 ) at 27 years old, average lifespan for wild male orca is 30 years but they can live as long as 50-60 years, wild females average lifespan is 60 years but some have been estimated at 80 years, they know by the teeth. 
Pneumonia is a common cause of death especially in captive orca and mainly due to the inadequate diet of dead fish and constantly grating their teeth on gates and along walls which damages their teeth. Most captive adult orca have to have their damaged teeth flushed out daily to prevent bacteria getting into the blood stream, should bacteria get in there it opens them up to pneumonia, kidney and heart diseases.

Springer is a successful rehab and release, Springer was found in 2002 in a very similar situation as Morgan, around the same age, starving, upper respiratory infection and intestinal parasites. A US aquarium tried to go and rescue her but were stopped by the local population and orca experts were brought in. Springer spent some time in a sea pen, was fed live fish, treated for her illnesses and eventually released, she is still swimming with her pod and is a happy, healthy orca. 

Sea World knew about Morgans rescue before the experts knew, we know know that there was never any intention to release Morgan by DH, she is worth over (est) $10,000,000 to Sea World through entertainment and breeding.

Captive orca are over bred, bred too often and interbred. In the wild orca dont interbreed, the males, while spending their whole lives with their mother will seek out other pods to mate then return to the mother. Females generally breed for the first time between 14 - 20 yrs and calve about once every 5 years, in Loro Parque right now, Kohana a 9 year old is already pregnant for the second time, she gave birth to a calf, Adam only 15 months ago and is due to have her second calf in approx 6 months, she is still performing tricks, they are pregnant for 17 months.

There is no record of any wild orca killing a human...ever, in the last 30 years 4 people have been killed by captive orca, the list in injuries is lengthy and by all account, all the deaths and many of the injuries were deliberate. 

Facility improvement. This is a misconception, while there is no doubt that a lot has been learned about captive marine mammals and veterinary care 'has improved', however, the infant mortality rate is as high now (in captivity) as its ever been. Bottlenose dolphins on average still dont live any longer than 2 - 7 years while in the wild they have an average lifespan of 45 years. 

As to Morgans welfare at Loro Parque, Morgan was sent there, according to Judge De Rooij as this was in her best interest....Morgan was actually sent there, (in the court documents) due to a couple of Articles in the EC Directives being 'unclear'.
In December a video was uploaded to youtube by a tourist which showed Morgan being attacked by Kohana and Skyla, there was speculation by some that this was a dominance issue, Kohana establishing her position over Morgan, the video was shown to experts and verified that this was nothing to do with dominance, it was bullying and one attack after another (9 attacks in less than 5 minutes). Prior to this Morgan already had bite wounds along her dorsal fin. Morgan now spends a lot of time by herself.
Tekoa, a male orca at Loro Parque was the victim of ongoing attacks and he is covered is scars all over his body. Shortly after Sea World sent the original 4 orca to Loro Parque (2006) one of their own trainers requested that Tekoa been moved back to US due to the attacks, this request was turned down. Tekoa, a few months later attacked and hospitalized one of the trainers. In 2009 Keto, another male at LP, attacked and killed a trainer.

There was always a small risk in releasing Morgan back to the ocean however there is a bigger risk to her psychological and physical health at Loro Parque.

All of the above are facts, not my own personal feelings so hope this has cleared a few things up and answered any questions.

I am not against captivity if its warranted, I have no problem with some zoos where there are great conservation programs. I dont, however, agree with circuses using wild animals due to the abuse and deplorable housing and make no mistake, the abuse that we know goes on with land animals also goes on with marine mammals. (this last paragraph obviously is my own feelings on the subject).

The fight for Morgan is not over.


----------



## mikeyb

Even so is it worth the risk to put her in front of a pod that may potentially rip her to pieces and its not like a human can stop a however many tonne whale from attacking another imo shes used to captivity let her stay there if shes showing no signs of stress or unhappyness its gambling with her life putting her back and shes already nearly died once is it fair to try that again


----------



## Zoo-Man

mikeyb said:


> Even so is it worth the risk to put her in front of a pod that may potentially rip her to pieces and its not like a human can stop a however many tonne whale from attacking another imo shes used to captivity let her stay there if shes showing no signs of stress or unhappyness its gambling with her life putting her back and shes already nearly died once is it fair to try that again


But at least she'd have space to attampt to escape, not like what she currently has in a tank.


----------



## Devi

Jackie K -

I will try to take the points in the order you raised them.
Morgans estimated age was 2-3, females often never leave the pod, but certainly not before maturity at about 15.
SOS Dolfijn was present at the capture of Morgan and involved in her rehabilitation, so the did not 'refuse to get involved', they have an article on their website about her.
Dolfinarium Harderwijk certainly have had trades with seaworld, most zoos and aquariums have had trades with each other in the past, but the last Orca was sent there in 1987, so they are hardly having the close relationship that you suggest.
Wildlife rescues will often try to keep wildlife away from people, but rescue costs a lot of money, so some places, such as the seal sanctuary in cornwall, or the dolfinarium harderwijk will allow the public to see the rescued animals, the dolfinarium has most of its animals on display, including dolphins and porpoises that are to be released. The public are not allowed close interaction, they can merely see them. Having worked in wildlife rescue myself, I know that we do not want them to approach humans because this will often get them killed in the wild, but since orca, dolphin, and porpoise are not heavily hunted in europe I wouldn't say that it is a huge concern.
The plan for Morgan was initially release, but she was seen as unsuitable. Dolfinarium Hardjewick currently suggest their survival rate from release is 50%, so I would suggest they are not being overly cautious if they believe she has less chance than that to survive.
I am a little worried about the Orca Coalition, what do lawyers know about animal care? And who are these specialists who don't even work with cetaceans? Where have they earned their 'expert' status?
Many marine mammals have indeed been released, many by Dolfinarium harderwijk and sos dolfijn, they are experts in the field with hundreds of releases of many kinds of animals, they are not idiots, they know what it takes to release an animal. 
Keiko was a failed release because he was never truly 'released', he was transferred to the sea pen in 1998, where they tried to train him to be a whale, but he really didn't want to be, in 2002, four years after he went into the pen, they decided to release him, against the advice of experts who did not think he was ready, he stayed true to form and continued to seek out human company, eventually dying a year after his true release in 2003, in a norweigan fjord, which was the closest he could be to humans and not a natural environment for an orca. He might well be one of the oldest orca in captivity, but considering that he only lived in the wild for a year, and even then in close proximity to humans, it is his captive life that allowed his long lifespan, if anything it was the wild part that killed him. 
Captive Orca do breed earlier than we have witnessed in the wild, however we do not have cetacean birth control and isolating them until a suitable breeding age would be cruel, there's not a lot we can do there. On the claim that they are inbred, that is true, because there are only a few dozen orca in captivity, we have a few options here, keep single sex groups and not breed, which would leave an unsustainable population and cause issues if orca ever do become endangered in the wild, or capture new blood from the sea, which I believe is what you are currently arguing against, neither is ideal, so a careful breeding program is in place to try to stop too much interbreeding. It's not ideal, but we're working with what we have.
As far as injuries go, people are stupid if they think they can get into an enclosure with a wild animal and not be in danger, orca don't kill people because they are unhappy, they kill people because they are in an enclosed area with them. This, I agree, is bad.
I believe that Morgan is in the best possible place right now and many experts agree.


----------



## Jackie-K

mikeyb said:


> Even so is it worth the risk to put her in front of a pod that may potentially rip her to pieces and its not like a human can stop a however many tonne whale from attacking another imo shes used to captivity let her stay there if shes showing no signs of stress or unhappyness its gambling with her life putting her back and shes already nearly died once is it fair to try that again


Hi Mikeyb, her psychological and physical health is already being gambled with. She is showing signs of stress, she spends a lot of time alone now due to the attacks, and from 'our guys' monitoring her she is still vocalizing excessively which is a classic sign of stress in orca, captive orca that continue to vocalize too much usually end up on anti depressants. It would be out of the ordinary in the wild for other orca to 'rip her to pieces', if they didnt want her near them they would be more likely to chase her away. 

When Keiko was released word had got around, it was even on the news that he had been killed by other orca, he was released before most people had access to the internet so the general public only knew what was on the news or in the papers. I lived in California at this time and for years I thought this is what had happened to him, it turned out to be a false story circulated by pro captivity people who started the story when he had actually been moved to Iceland. He lived for about 4 years after this story was put out and as I said in the last post, he intergrated with a few orca pods. It would be much more likely, if orca were so aggressive with other orca that an older male be attacked in the ocean than a young female. Orca understand family bonds, they recognize their family members, if they didnt then they would interbreed.

A few things that would have happened prior to release is recall training, which has already been done in part with Morgan, they use a whistle and is responding to it. This is more conditioning rather than training, when she goes for boat walks she will be recalled and go back to the sea pen to begin with, this technique was used successfully with Keiko and Springer, and to be honest if they can learn all the tricks they have to do in captivity there is no reason they cant learn 'new' tricks like hunting for their own food and recall back to a pen, she would already be aware of the live food available in the sea pen, she would be aware of the safety of it (she will be aware that she is safe in the med pool right now).

Orca are very inteligent mammals, theyre up there on a level with some of the apes and elephants. I understand some peoples views in that maybe she would be better, safer to stay in captivity but if you researched the lives they have in captivity it is far from being a safe or better environment.
The reality is Sea World has been needing new blood for their current orca for some time, they know they shouldnt be interbreeding them but if they are to continue in the entertainment industry they have no choice but to bring in new blood, their problem is its now illegal for them to go out and catch them. Had marine experts not stepped in with Springer she would also be in captivity now. In the past the only orca commercial aquariums have ever released are the ones that spent the first couple of days ramming themselves into walls head first. Steps are being taken now to ensure whats happened to Morgan never happens again with another rescued orca in Europe.

I guess what it comes down to depends on who you (anyone) believe, some people believe that the operators/owners of commercial aquariums know better, some people believe the likes of Ingrid Visser, Howard Garrett. Ric O'Barry (original trainer of Flipper), Jacques Cousteau (who was against this for many years), Paul Spong, even John Ford who was orginally hired by the Dolphinarium Harderwijk but changed sides and countless other marine mammal experts who are not gaining anything financially from Morgan or other captive marine mammals. Ive found that the people with the strongest, loudest voices against this business are people who have actually worked in the entertainment industry with these mammals and know exactly what goes on behind the scenes.


----------



## Jackie-K

Hi devi, will get back to some of what youve brought up later (on my way out). The Orca Coalition is a group of 6 or 7 animal welfare and conservation organizations who have plenty of marine mammal experts, Ingrid Visser was heavily involved, they worked alongside Free Morgan Foundation which also has orca and marine mammal experts involved with them. From what I know there were over 40 independant experts working together on this, the lawyers are not orca experts but they didnt have to be, they are lawyers and work for their client, same as any lawyers.

Keiko, again, some people see his release as a failure some dont. Personally I think he would have been better in a sea pen, he didnt agree with this though and after ongoing boat walks and returning on the whistle he followed a pod of orca and didnt come back. Keep in mind he was not a 'dumb animal' that didnt know any better, I dont think people understand the inteligence of these mammals. 

Birth control is available and is used on captive orca as is AI so yes, breeding can easily be manipulated.


----------



## mikeyb

Zoo-Man said:


> But at least she'd have space to attampt to escape, not like what she currently has in a tank.


a yearling out gunning a full blown adult pod yh thats gonna happen lol


----------



## Zoo-Man

mikeyb said:


> a yearling out gunning a full blown adult pod yh thats gonna happen lol


She isn't a yearling, she's around 3 years old :Na_Na_Na_Na: So she should be left to be bullied in an artificial orca bowl?


----------



## mikeyb

Zoo-Man said:


> She isn't a yearling, she's around 3 years old :Na_Na_Na_Na: So she should be left to be bullied in an artificial orca bowl?


Either way shes hardly gonna outrun a bull in a feeding frenzy


----------



## Zoo-Man

mikeyb said:


> Either way shes hardly gonna outrun a bull in a feeding frenzy


You mean out-swim :lol2: Has cannibalism been recorded in Orcas? I've not heard of it.


----------



## Jamiioo

mikeyb said:


> Either way shes hardly gonna outrun a bull in a feeding frenzy


Sorry but some of these replies make me :rotfl: 


Is there anywhere we can keep updated on the progress of Morgan and (Hopefully) her release? *Goes back to start of thread to re-check*

: victory:


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> You mean out-swim :lol2: Has cannibalism been recorded in Orcas? I've not heard of it.


Killer Whale fact sheet

And now you have!


----------



## Jackie-K

Jamiioo said:


> Is there anywhere we can keep updated on the progress of Morgan and (Hopefully) her release? *Goes back to start of thread to re-check*
> 
> : victory:


Yes, theres www.freemorgan.org and there are a number of facebook pages dedicated to Morgan. 
The Free Morgan site also has most of the papers that were given to the court in Holland listed and the step by step plan of her rehab and release. I am happy to keep you all up to date in this thread/forum as well.


----------



## mikeyb

haha Zoo-man = Fail. 
Cheers Devi 
Just seems stupid to remove her and put her into an alien enviroment shes not used to with adults that may potentially kill her and its not like we can stand between them like dogs .......Is it really worth the risk no matter how slight its gambling with her life im all for animals going back in the wild but literally rest and repair then back out there this whales been captive too long


----------



## Zoo-Man

Devi said:


> Killer Whale fact sheet
> 
> And now you have!


Interesting, thanks : victory:



mikeyb said:


> *haha Zoo-man = Fail. *
> *Cheers Devi *
> Just seems stupid to remove her and put her into an alien enviroment shes not used to with adults that may potentially kill her and its not like we can stand between them like dogs .......Is it really worth the risk no matter how slight its gambling with her life im all for animals going back in the wild but literally rest and repair then back out there this whales been captive too long


Thats not childish at all :lol2:


----------



## Jackie-K

mikeyb said:


> Just seems stupid to remove her and put her into an alien enviroment shes not used to with adults that may potentially kill her .......


That sums up whats happened to her at Loro Parque only now when theyre not training her she's spending a lot of time alone since the attacks!
Update On Morgan At Loro Parque 12-2011 - YouTube

I question the content of Devi's link, it says first....
"Orcas travel in familiar groups or pods, where a dominant male is the leader of the pod, accompany by two to four females and a young Orca or two."

then

"Orca societies are based around matrilines consisting of a single female (the matriarch) and her descendants..."

(just so theres no misunderstanding...
ma·tri·arch (m







) 
_n._ *1. *A woman who rules a family, clan, or tribe.
*2. *A woman who dominates a group or an activity.
*3. *A highly respected woman who is a mother.)

Orca pods are generally led by females, not males.

and then I found this...
"Orca cannibalism has also been reported..."
Yes it has, so has human cannabilism, that doesnt mean its commonplace. Orca are known to chase off other orca and can attack, more common with unknown males, and once the 'foreigner' has taken off its unlikely the attacker will waste energy hunting it down to kill it. There are far more reports of orca rescuing, or at least helping injured orca to survive i.e members of Moby Dolls pod after he was harpooned and shot countless times, where 2 pod members kept him at the surface so he could breath, pod members pushing calves towards shallower water when theyre in trouble so they can breath etc. Most animals, including domestic animals will kill an injured or weaker animal even if its their own offspring, orca dont....as a rule. There are reports of orca and bottlenose dolphins playing together and of course as orca dont interbreed it only proves that orca who dont know each other often 'interact', if they chased off and killed or ate every non related orca they would either be interbreeding or be extinct! 

Another note on Keiko that people seem to either ignore or dont know about (theres plenty of information on the net about it though) is Keiko's condition when he was taken from Mexico, he was not doing well, at all, he had fungal infections and lesions all over his skin among other ailments, Sea World were asked to rehome him before the rehab and release plan was seriously discussed, at first they said they would take him but when they found out how ill and diseased he was they then refused, partly because they didnt want him to infect any of their current orca and partly because they didnt want the bad publicity if he died in transit or shortly after. After some time at the first sea pen, he recovered, his skin cleared up (with treatment of course) and he was given a clean bill of health at which point he was moved to his native waters in Iceland. Additionally, his last year or so in captivity he had become aggressive with trainers.
Reality is, its highly unlikely he would have lived much longer if he hadnt been moved, at least he spent a few years in the ocean, catching live prey, ate when he wanted to and intergrating with his own kind...none of who beat him up or tried to kill him.

Here is another website run by 4 ex Sea World trainers, as I said in another post, the strongest voices against cetacean captivity are those who know exactly what goes on behind the scenes. None of them are 'disgruntled' ex employees (just thought Id point that out before anyone says it), they are 4 highly respected professionals. There is a link for Morgan on there and numerous links to organizations such as WDCS, Marine Connection, The Orca Project etc, all highly respected throughout the world.
https://sites.google.com/site/voiceoftheorcas/about-us


----------



## Zoo-Man

Jackie-K said:


> That sums up whats happened to her at Loro Parque only now when theyre not training her she's spending a lot of time alone since the attacks!
> Update On Morgan At Loro Parque 12-2011 - YouTube
> 
> I question the content of Devi's link, it says first....
> "Orcas travel in familiar groups or pods, where a dominant male is the leader of the pod, accompany by two to four females and a young Orca or two."
> 
> then
> 
> "Orca societies are based around matrilines consisting of a single female (the matriarch) and her descendants..."
> 
> (just so theres no misunderstanding...
> ma·tri·arch (mimageimagetrimage-ärkimage)
> _n._ *1. *A woman who rules a family, clan, or tribe.
> *2. *A woman who dominates a group or an activity.
> *3. *A highly respected woman who is a mother.)
> 
> Orca pods are generally led by females, not males.
> 
> and then I found this...
> "Orca cannibalism has also been reported..."
> Yes it has, so has human cannabilism, that doesnt mean its commonplace. Orca are known to chase off other orca and can attack, more common with unknown males, and once the 'foreigner' has taken off its unlikely the attacker will waste energy hunting it down to kill it. There are far more reports of orca rescuing, or at least helping injured orca to survive i.e members of Moby Dolls pod after he was harpooned and shot countless times, where 2 pod members kept him at the surface so he could breath, pod members pushing calves towards shallower water when theyre in trouble so they can breath etc. Most animals, including domestic animals will kill an injured or weaker animal even if its their own offspring, orca dont....as a rule. There are reports of orca and bottlenose dolphins playing together and of course as orca dont interbreed it only proves that orca who dont know each other often 'interact', if they chased off and killed or ate every non related orca they would either be interbreeding or be extinct!
> 
> Another note on Keiko that people seem to either ignore or dont know about (theres plenty of information on the net about it though) is Keiko's condition when he was taken from Mexico, he was not doing well, at all, he had fungal infections and lesions all over his skin among other ailments, Sea World were asked to rehome him before the rehab and release plan was seriously discussed, at first they said they would take him but when they found out how ill and diseased he was they then refused, partly because they didnt want him to infect any of their current orca and partly because they didnt want the bad publicity if he died in transit or shortly after. After some time at the first sea pen, he recovered, his skin cleared up (with treatment of course) and he was given a clean bill of health at which point he was moved to his native waters in Iceland. Additionally, his last year or so in captivity he had become aggressive with trainers.
> Reality is, its highly unlikely he would have lived much longer if he hadnt been moved, at least he spent a few years in the ocean, catching live prey, ate when he wanted to and intergrating with his own kind...none of who beat him up or tried to kill him.
> 
> Here is another website run by 4 ex Sea World trainers, as I said in another post, the strongest voices against cetacean captivity are those who know exactly what goes on behind the scenes. None of them are 'disgruntled' ex employees (just thought Id point that out before anyone says it), they are 4 highly respected professionals. There is a link for Morgan on there and numerous links to organizations such as WDCS, Marine Connection, The Orca Project etc, all highly respected throughout the world.
> https://sites.google.com/site/voiceoftheorcas/about-us


That poor girl, she obviously can't be happy with her life at Loro Parque, & obviously the resident Orcas aren't happy with Morgan's presence there, so why the hell don't they stop being so selfish & give this beautiful wildanimal her freedom back? :devil:


----------



## Devi

Jackie K - The link you provided is to a speech therapist, an acupuncturist, a doctor and a waterways management worker, how are they experts in the field? And the article they've written appears to be about trainer safety, not orca captivity. 
As I've already mentioned, people should not be in the enclosure with wild animals, you don't get into enclosures with lions or bears, because you'll get killed. If humans choose to perform this daft activity and they lose their lives, then frankly it's hard to have sympathy.
This has no bearing on captivity issues as a whole.
I can find many other links to Orca cannabalism if needed, bones of orca have been discovered in dead orca stomachs, that is fact. It is also worth considering we know very little of their diet in the wild, they are fairly hard to monitor.
Pods do indeed protect their own, but Morgan does not have a pod, some people believe they have found related animals, but we have no idea if she was ever in this pod, nor why she was found in the state she was.
Finally, on the bullying, orca do play rough, however if the introductions at Loro Parque are not completed successfully there are many other places she can go. If, once released, she receives the same bullying from wild animals, then she will not have the chance to be separated or moved, she will potentially be killed.
We need animals in captivity for many well documented reasons, surely it is better for those animals to come from those who would not survive in the wild rather than capturing random animals as we did in the past?


----------



## Zoo-Man

Devi said:


> Jackie K - The link you provided is to a speech therapist, an acupuncturist, a doctor and a waterways management worker, how are they experts in the field? And the article they've written appears to be about trainer safety, not orca captivity.
> As I've already mentioned, people should not be in the enclosure with wild animals, you don't get into enclosures with lions or bears, because you'll get killed. If humans choose to perform this daft activity and they lose their lives, then frankly it's hard to have sympathy.
> This has no bearing on captivity issues as a whole.
> I can find many other links to Orca cannabalism if needed, bones of orca have been discovered in dead orca stomachs, that is fact. It is also worth considering we know very little of their diet in the wild, they are fairly hard to monitor.
> Pods do indeed protect their own, but Morgan does not have a pod, some people believe they have found related animals, but we have no idea if she was ever in this pod, nor why she was found in the state she was.
> Finally, on the bullying, orca do play rough, however if the introductions at Loro Parque are not completed successfully there are many other places she can go. If, once released, she receives the same bullying from wild animals, then she will not have the chance to be separated or moved, she will potentially be killed.
> *We need animals in captivity for many well documented reasons,* surely it is better for those animals to come from those who would not survive in the wild rather than capturing random animals as we did in the past?


Why do we need Orcas in captivity, in small uninteresting pools? The only reason I can think of is for human entertainment.


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Why do we need Orcas in captivity, in small uninteresting pools? The only reason I can think of is for human entertainment.


A captive population of any animal is important firstly for conservation reasons. Consider the recent oil leak in the gulf of mexico, a large disaster which had a massive impact on populations of animals, when things like that happen we can begin a captive breeding strategy to reintroduce the animal to the wild and avoid a crisis in the food chain.
In the case of przewalski's horse we reintroduced a previously extinct animal to the wild, without a previously held captive population this animal would be gone forever. 
Secondly for research, we need captive animals to be aware of behaviour, diseases, diet, breeding, we have made great advances in the treatment and care of our environment by understanding the care of captive animals, we can also better rescue and rehabilitate injured animals by being able to care for them.
Education is also important, with captive animals being ambassadors for their wild cousins, would so much money be available for tiger sanctuaries for example without the money raised in the name of captive ones? How much would the public care about chimps in africa without programmes like monkey world that demonstrate them in captivity?


----------



## Zoo-Man

Devi said:


> A captive population of any animal is important firstly for conservation reasons. Consider the recent oil leak in the gulf of mexico, a large disaster which had a massive impact on populations of animals, when things like that happen we can begin a captive breeding strategy to reintroduce the animal to the wild and avoid a crisis in the food chain.
> In the case of przewalski's horse we reintroduced a previously extinct animal to the wild, without a previously held captive population this animal would be gone forever.
> Secondly for research, we need captive animals to be aware of behaviour, diseases, diet, breeding, we have made great advances in the treatment and care of our environment by understanding the care of captive animals, we can also better rescue and rehabilitate injured animals by being able to care for them.
> Education is also important, with captive animals being ambassadors for their wild cousins, would so much money be available for tiger sanctuaries for example without the money raised in the name of captive ones? How much would the public care about chimps in africa without programmes like monkey world that demonstrate them in captivity?


Don't get me wrong, Im certainly not against keeping animals in captivity at all. But with Orcas, I just feel their needs are just too great to be do-able. For example, housing size, how on earth can we give them enough space, when they would naturally have the ocean to swin in?


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Don't get me wrong, Im certainly not against keeping animals in captivity at all. But with Orcas, I just feel their needs are just too great to be do-able. For example, housing size, how on earth can we give them enough space, when they would naturally have the ocean to swin in?


That's a very interesting point. It's hard to know what animals do in the wild because they need to and what they do because they want to. 
For example, many animals will roam large areas in the wild to find food or mates, however if given this in captivity, they will not choose to move at all. For many years we thought this meant that they didn't need much space, leading to some stupidly tiny enclosures, particularly for those lazy big cats, who then suffered muscle wastage and mental disorders. We've now realised that we need to make them work for food leading to larger enclosures, scatter feeds and enrichment from a variety of sources. The result has been healthier happier animals.
I think the closest comparison to orca is with elephants, in the wild they can roam hundreds of miles on migration routes, they also live in large herds which can number hundreds. In captivity they need to be with others, and a fair amount of space is also important, but the needs seem to be greatly reduced. It is however imperative for their mental health to be busy an awful lot, they forage for food, train tricks (in a positive way of course) and basically occupy the mind while providing appropriate exercise to keep the animal in good condition. This is the direction we should be heading with orca, and the direction many organisations are heading, we may not be 100% there yet, but it's really getting there.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> Jackie K - The link you provided is to a speech therapist, an acupuncturist, a doctor and a waterways management worker, how are they experts in the field? And the article they've written appears to be about trainer safety, not orca captivity.
> As I've already mentioned, people should not be in the enclosure with wild animals, you don't get into enclosures with lions or bears, because you'll get killed. If humans choose to perform this daft activity and they lose their lives, then frankly it's hard to have sympathy.
> This has no bearing on captivity issues as a whole.
> I can find many other links to Orca cannabalism if needed, bones of orca have been discovered in dead orca stomachs, that is fact. It is also worth considering we know very little of their diet in the wild, they are fairly hard to monitor.
> Pods do indeed protect their own, but Morgan does not have a pod, some people believe they have found related animals, but we have no idea if she was ever in this pod, nor why she was found in the state she was.
> Finally, on the bullying, orca do play rough, however if the introductions at Loro Parque are not completed successfully there are many other places she can go. If, once released, she receives the same bullying from wild animals, then she will not have the chance to be separated or moved, she will potentially be killed.
> We need animals in captivity for many well documented reasons, surely it is better for those animals to come from those who would not survive in the wild rather than capturing random animals as we did in the past?


The 4 people who created that website are all ex SW orca trainers, the jobs they have now are their second careers and while Im not going to say I know what qualifications they had to work at SW, SW themselves are adamant that all their trainers have various degrees in marine biology fields (unlike Loro Parque who hire people off the streets, sometimes people without so much as a high school diploma....I know that personally, for a fact). One of the problems, again, you can find this on the net, SW are concerned if they stop trainers doing waterworks they will lose money as this is one of the big attractions. Theyve made a loss over the last two years (again, available on the net).

I agree with you in that humans going this close to wild animals is a risk, the difference with most wild animals, or specifically predators, if you go near them in the wild, your likely to end up dead, not the case with orca.


The tanks they live in dont even come close to a substitute for natural habitat unlike many land animals now, there are sanctuaries all over the place for elephants, large cats, chimps and other primates etc, as of right now no commercial aquarium has been able to replicate a natural environment for orca. Im all for conservation with animals that are endangered, orca are not except for Southern Residents who were nearly wiped out with the captures in the 60's and 70's, they have never recovered but no one can say any aquarium has ever done anything successful in breeding specifically S. Residents, Lolita (Lpod) never had any offspring and the other S.Residents that survived long enough were bred with Iclandics. There is no conservation for S Residents going on...except in the ocean where they are now protected. (The captures involved taking the younger orca as they were 'easier to handle and less likely to start smashing their heads into the walls of the tanks, less likely to be aggressive'...they basically took an entire generation).

I actually find it quite offensive that you refer to some of the worlds top orca experts as 'some people', are we supposed to believe that the only orca experts are those who currently work with captive orca? Ridiculous! The pod found are related to Morgan, no one knows if her mother is with that pod, its unlikely but it is likely that the pod consists of aunts, cousins, there is a chance it is the pod she came from. No orca has been seen near the Waddensea in about 50 years, yet all of a sudden, months after Morgan was found a pod has been seen much further south than usual, for the condition that Morgan was in when she was found, her age taken into account, swimming over a thousand miles away from her pod would be unlikely, she probably wouldve been dead before she got so far south.

And back to cannibalism, I know it happens, Ive agreed with you on that, all I said is its not common place, orca are well documented in chasing off orca they dont want around, theres little documentation of actually witnessing them eating each other but yes, it happens. Doesnt mean it would happen to Morgan, pro caps said Keiko, Springer and Luna would be attacked and killed by other orca...but none of them were. And again, no one was ever going to just dump her back in the ocean. 

As for research, a lot more could be learned from Morgan being back in the ocean, according to LP theyre 'research' on Morgan which they had to show in court was to see how well a wild caught orca communicates with captive bred orca!! Why? what purpose? 

Morgan, at this time, cannot go anywhere else, she's stuck at Loro Parque. She cant be shipped to USA until she has been captive, at an amusement park for a certain length of time if she can be transferred at all, there are no guarantees SW will get a permit until at least after September this year (well...depending on whos pockets can be lined to get the permit!!!). As SW owns her they are not likely to send her to France which as of right now would be the only other place she could go as they would lose millions of dollars, plus with the ongoing publicity, some places might not want to take her. The pod she is with is the most unstable pod there is, there is no doubt she is being bullied, they dont have the room at LP, they have another orca due this year, theyre running out of pools to keep the ones in that dont get along, Tekoa has to be separate, Morgan has to be separate, Adam has to be separate, wheres the new one going to go? In with Adam? Adam doesnt know how to be social with the other orca, Kohana will most likely reject him....that said though its well documented that the majority of captive born, orphaned (rejected) orca dont live past about 2 and a half years so maybe the new one can have Adams pool!!! Seriously do you not see whats wrong with all this?


----------



## Devi

Seaworld trainers are preferred to have college degrees, but it is not the most important thing. All details are on their website here - Seaworld Careers
It is also worth stating that it is not particularly important to be qualified to work as a trainer, cetacean training is done in much the same way as dog training, which half the world has managed to pick up by themselves. It involves marker and reward. 
There are indeed people at the parks who have degrees upon degrees, those are the people making the decisions, but the average trainer does not.
Also, most wild animals, orca included, will kill you in the wild if cornered, but as humans are not on their usual prey range you tend to be fine, that does not mean they are safe. There are many people who hang around large predators, bears, lions, sharks, who will swear that they are safe, and that the animals are friendly, there are also relatively few people killed by these animals each year, but they are still dangerous.
As for a 'related' pod, you say it is a chance that it could be Morgans pod, even if it is related, there is a small chance that they will happily take her in, a chance is not good enough to risk the life of an animal. 
I call the people calling for her release as 'some people', because looking at the free morgan site you linked earlier, the only names I can find are the 'supporters', who are a few models. The majority of people who seem to be openly calling for release are laymen who know nothing of the situation that they haven't read on the free morgan site.
Learning about whale communication is very important for their conservation, we are currently discovering the impact of military sonar on cetaceans and finding frequencies they don't use in order to minimise disruption, we are also working on sonar fences around coastlines to avoid beachings. This is very important work which is saving lives. It is impossible to monitor single animals in the wild, many try but considering they live the majority of their life under the sea we simply can't do the work that we do on captive orca in the field.
You then discuss the captive situation, there are many things that can be done in the future and many places she can be moved if deemed necessary, however right now she has been at Loro Parque less than 2 months, having left hardjewick on 29/11, teething problems are to be expected. Do you honestly believe that if she finds a new pod in the wild she will be accepted within a shorter time than that? 
We have spent a lot of time discovering stress signs in captive animals, and she is being closely monitored, she will be fine.


----------



## Jackie-K

Here is an update of the appeal which should be going ahead in April.
http://www.destentor.nl/inbox/hermesinbox/10388167/Opnieuw-rechtszaak-over-Morgan.ece

Translation provided by http://freeorcamorgan.tumblr.com/:
The Orca Coalition has not given up on Morgan yet. This spring, the action group will again juridically cross swords with the ministry of economic affairs, agriculture and innovation. The stake is the fate of the young orca that has been staying in animal park Loro Parque on the Spanish island Tenerife since November. The Orca Coalition wants Morgan to be released.

... The Ministry will be sued, and not the Dolphinarium in Harderwijk (where Morgan stayed for months) because the Dutch government was responsible for her during her stay in the marine park. In November, the court in Amsterdam gave the go-ahead for the move to Tenerife. But the Orca Coalition is not giving up. “The previous lawsuits were purely meant to stop or slow down the moving of Morgan,” says Hester Bartels, spokesperson for the activist group. “Now it’s about the fate of Morgan. We hope to be able to force her release via the legal route.” This is a proceeding on the merits. The first session at the court in Amsterdam is expected to be in April. The Ministry confirms that there will be lawsuit, but refrains from commenting.

The Orca Coalition demands that Morgan will be moved to Norway and released in a fjord. This happens more often with orcas that are temporarily captured. The action group relies on European legislation which requires that wild orcas should be released if possible.

According to the Orca Coalition, Morgan is having a tough time at Loro Parque. “She is covered in scars, sustained in fights with the other orcas. There are also videos available on the internet where you can see how Morgan is chased by other animals. The tourists that shot the images call it playing. But that is nonsense. Morgan is chased and tackled hard by her peers.”

According to trainers and caregivers, there is no reason for concern. “It is true that there are scratches on Morgan’s body,” says Marieke Develing, spokesman for the Dolphinarium in Harderwijk. “But that is normal in young mammals. They are curious and want to examine each other. Sometimes a little harshly. You can compare it with children playing in a playground. Sometimes something goes wrong there too, but that is not an immediate cause for concern. The Dolphinarium has regular contact with the colleague park in Tenerife. As far as they have understood, Morgan is doing excellent.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> Seaworld trainers are preferred to have college degrees, but it is not the most important thing. All details are on their website here - Seaworld Careers
> It is also worth stating that it is not particularly important to be qualified to work as a trainer, cetacean training is done in much the same way as dog training, which half the world has managed to pick up by themselves. It involves marker and reward.
> There are indeed people at the parks who have degrees upon degrees, those are the people making the decisions, but the average trainer does not.
> Also, most wild animals, orca included, will kill you in the wild if cornered, but as humans are not on their usual prey range you tend to be fine, that does not mean they are safe. There are many people who hang around large predators, bears, lions, sharks, who will swear that they are safe, and that the animals are friendly, there are also relatively few people killed by these animals each year, but they are still dangerous.
> As for a 'related' pod, you say it is a chance that it could be Morgans pod, even if it is related, there is a small chance that they will happily take her in, a chance is not good enough to risk the life of an animal.
> I call the people calling for her release as 'some people', because looking at the free morgan site you linked earlier, the only names I can find are the 'supporters', who are a few models. The majority of people who seem to be openly calling for release are laymen who know nothing of the situation that they haven't read on the free morgan site.
> Learning about whale communication is very important for their conservation, we are currently discovering the impact of military sonar on cetaceans and finding frequencies they don't use in order to minimise disruption, we are also working on sonar fences around coastlines to avoid beachings. This is very important work which is saving lives. It is impossible to monitor single animals in the wild, many try but considering they live the majority of their life under the sea we simply can't do the work that we do on captive orca in the field.
> You then discuss the captive situation, there are many things that can be done in the future and many places she can be moved if deemed necessary, however right now she has been at Loro Parque less than 2 months, having left hardjewick on 29/11, teething problems are to be expected. Do you honestly believe that if she finds a new pod in the wild she will be accepted within a shorter time than that?
> We have spent a lot of time discovering stress signs in captive animals, and she is being closely monitored, she will be fine.


Ive got my information about whats expected of SW trainers from people who have worked and interviewed there, not from the website, I have one friend who was told to 'go get herself a degree in one of the related sciences and then reapply' (for a trainers job). They try to give each orca a main trainer and that person is relied on to inform vets and their supervisors if they think there is anything wrong with the animal. 

The Free Morgan Foundation I linked as this is where all the court papers, letters to the ministry, rehab and release plan etc are available. Im not sure why you seem to think there are just a few models and 'laymen' involved, maybe you missed this link Experts board 

Are you involved in the captive marine mammal industry? Just curious. A lot of the information Ive had over the years has come from people I know who have worked there (SW and LP) and I have no reason to doubt anything theyve told me, they have all left because they didnt agree with the policies regarding the general welfare of the animals. None of them were 'disgruntled employees' , none of them were fired. 

In regards to the way they are trained, yes...marker and reward however with a dog, if it doesnt carry out the command therefore not receiving the reward it will eventually learn the way to get the reward...with orca, by witholding the reward, according to scientifc studies, ex SW trainers, ex LP trainers, this will just p*ss them off, couple that with being isolated for 'being a bad orca' (ex trainers words and a common practice in the industry) and youve got a very frustrated and potentially lethal animal, orca dont think the way dogs do and by all accounts, they do hold grudges, they do remember. One of my friends who used to work at LP, she worked with and was a good friend of Alexis for a few years and left a few months before he was killed, even then he was concerned about Keto, he (Keto) was getting harder to work with, showing signs of frustration, there had already been a couple of incidents with him (that you wont find on the internet because Keissling pretty much has the authorities in Tenerife in his back pocket....if youve ever lived in Tenerife youll know how hard it is to get a job there and youll know how much your life can be messed up if you go against Keissling) and he (Alexis) was planning on getting another job after that Christmas, he had complained to the management and was fobbed off and basically told to get on with the job. Again, like Ive said, there is a lot more goes on that the general public dont know about and if you want to go along the research route, a lot more could have been learned from Morgan back in the ocean, doing research on behavior of any animal while its living in unnatural conditions is not going to give accurate results, Morgan has already been attacked and no, she shouldnt have to go through this at her age, she is stressed, she is spending a lot of time isolated due to the attacks, stress related illness is the biggest killer of orca in captivity.


----------



## Zoo-Man

Well its official....Morgan, the orca who was 'rescued' by the Dolphinarium Harderwijk in 2010 and was sent to Loro Parque INSTEAD of being released back to the ocean which DH had promised to do is now performing stupid circus tricks for the screaming public....although from what Ive heard she doesnt actually do 'whats expected'....no sh*t, poor girl has lost her freedom, is on a diet of dead fish..., antibiotics and possibly antidepressants to quiet her extreme vocalization, has been attacked by 2 of the other orca there...its ILLEGAL to use wild caught orca for commercial purposes...oh but thats right, they are using her for 'research'....studying how well a wild caught orca communicates with captive born orca!!!! WRONG....she's worth millions to Sea World and Loro Parque if shes performing and breeding...research my a$$!!!! and yes, the fight goes on to get her back and get her to a sea pen in Norway for rehabilitation and eventual release....PLEEEEEEZ DO NOT BUY TICKETS FOR THESE CIRCUSES!!!!

"Orca Morgan has performed in shows since Friday 17 February 2012, so tells a visitor of Loro Parque, Tenerife. Friday she performed once and she had to give her pectoral fin and slip on the side on command. On Saturday she had to perform in EVERY show and also she had to do more unnatural tricks.". 
It only took Loro Parque ($eaWorld) 12 weeks.. to turn her into a money making circus clown. So much for rescueing wild animals from the ocean. (( Free Morgan


----------



## Devi

Captive animals need enrichment to keep them happy and healthy. Monkeys get food puzzles and toys, but that's not possible for cetaceans who have no hands, so instead we teach them things to keep their brains active. Its the same situation as a dog, in the wild they'd be using their brains to hunt, but with an easy food source they need to be made to work for food in other ways. My dog can 'shake hands', and apparently they taught morgan to do this too. How is either one bad?
Orca are also not illegal as far as I know anywhere, where did you get that information? I'm happy to be proven wrong on that since I'm not up on law in Spain, but they are not illegal here so not sure how they are there?


----------



## Zoo-Man

Devi said:


> Captive animals need enrichment to keep them happy and healthy. Monkeys get food puzzles and toys, but that's not possible for cetaceans who have no hands, so instead we teach them things to keep their brains active. Its the same situation as a dog, in the wild they'd be using their brains to hunt, but with an easy food source they need to be made to work for food in other ways. My dog can 'shake hands', and apparently they taught morgan to do this too. How is either one bad?
> Orca are also not illegal as far as I know anywhere, where did you get that information? I'm happy to be proven wrong on that since I'm not up on law in Spain, but they are not illegal here so not sure how they are there?


Morgan shouldn't have to be taught tricks for stimulation, she should be released back to the wild to her pod.

It says its illegal to use wild caught Orca for commercial purposes, not that they are illegal to keep.


----------



## adamntitch

Zoo-Man said:


> Morgan shouldn't have to be taught tricks for stimulation, she should be released back to the wild to her pod.
> 
> It says its illegal to use wild caught Orca for commercial purposes, not that they are illegal to keep.


that would mean most orcas in shows round the world are illegal as there in shows

colin dont want to argue with you but if they try and release morgan i can see it being a 2nd keko (free willy) whale and dieing

also as sad as it is they do seam to enjoy there work and unlike most people think they are not punished or have food with drawn if they dont do what is wanted of them 

say they make it illegal to have them in shows or what not all the orcas in the shows world wide would be put down

also colin there is no point in the get her to norway and in a pen all that does not work as has already been proved by other whales


----------



## Ferret Guy

Loderuna said:


> Surely a release should be tried though - she can be fitted with a transmitter so she can be monitored. May well have been better to put her to sleep in the first place if the chances of return to the wild were small.


So you would rather have an animal killed rather than kept in captivity?


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Morgan shouldn't have to be taught tricks for stimulation, she should be released back to the wild to her pod.
> 
> It says its illegal to use wild caught Orca for commercial purposes, not that they are illegal to keep.


As has been stated, the experts who work with her do not consider her suitable for release, they release a lot of the more endangered dolphin family that would raise a lot more money in captivity, so really not sure why they wouldn't release a common and not endangered Orca unless they had a good reason.
It is also not illegal to keep previously wild animals in captivity for entertainment only purposes, if it was then circuses would be stripped of their animals. I';ve now looked into the situation and it is clear from this site - Animal Law - Captive Orca that the law only requires that permits are sought for the capture of cetaceans, considering SOS rescue plenty of them, I'm assuming they are up to date on all paperwork as if they weren't they would be shut down many years ago.


----------



## J and M hedgehogs

Devi said:


> As has been stated, the experts who work with her do not consider her suitable for release, they release a lot of the more endangered dolphin family that would raise a lot more money in captivity, so really not sure why they wouldn't release a common and not endangered Orca unless they had a good reason.
> It is also not illegal to keep previously wild animals in captivity for entertainment only purposes, if it was then circuses would be stripped of their animals. I';ve now looked into the situation and it is clear from this site - Animal Law - Captive Orca that the law only requires that permits are sought for the capture of cetaceans, considering SOS rescue plenty of them, I'm assuming they are up to date on all paperwork as if they weren't they would be shut down many years ago.


you say dolphin when its a whale


----------



## Devi

J and M hedgehogs said:


> you say dolphin when its a whale


I never actually called Morgan a dolphin, although the category which it falls under is toothed whale, otherwise known as the dolphin family, an orca is not a true whale as you would normally class them, but the largest member of the dolphin family. This is why we no longer use the name 'killer whale'.
The term I prefer to use is cetacean which includes whales, dolphins and porpoises.


----------



## Animalmadrew

I am finding this to be very interesting conversation, however I am finding some of the responses rather suprising seeing as though we are on a forum which I believed was made up of predominatly pet keepers. I'm looking forward to hearing more peoples arguments for and against the release of the orca. Who knows, maybe my views on the keeping of wild caught animals may be changed. Keep it going guys :2thumb:


----------



## yugimon121

I believe cetaceans deserve a status as non-human people. while it seems ridiculous, we have hit an era where we know that intelligence and consciousness are not restricted to humans. 
Dolphins and orcas are being treated as items, a source of entertainment, which strips them of all of their natural instincts for human entertainment.
Though this animal was ill, i think a release should at the least be attempted.
while we may disagree on the status on this orca, atleast sign this
Help Shut Down World's Smallest Dolphin Tank | Care2 Causes
no one can possibly agree that this is right, of all things.
then again being a vegan and an ALF supporter, my ideas may be very biased.


----------



## Zoo-Man

adamntitch said:


> that would mean most orcas in shows round the world are illegal as there in shows
> 
> colin dont want to argue with you but if they try and release morgan i can see it being a 2nd keko (free willy) whale and dieing
> 
> also as sad as it is they do seam to enjoy there work and unlike most people think they are not punished or have food with drawn if they dont do what is wanted of them
> 
> say they make it illegal to have them in shows or what not all the orcas in the shows world wide would be put down
> 
> also colin there is no point in the get her to norway and in a pen all that does not work as has already been proved by other whales


Adam, have you read the previous posts from Jackie? They make interesting reading about Kieko's, & other Orca's, releases. 

How do you know they don't have food withdrawn if they do not do their tricks?

Morgan has been held captive for only a short space of time so far, she is a prime candidate for re-release. SeaWorld talk about doing all this research on how she will communicate & interact with captive bred Orcas, but wat use is that? The best reseasrch that could be done now is how Morgan's return to the wild goes.


----------



## Zoo-Man

This makes interesting reading too Op-Ed: Photos released by ex-trainers show cost of captivity for orcas (Includes interview)


----------



## Jackie-K

adamntitch said:


> that would mean most orcas in shows round the world are illegal as there in shows
> 
> colin dont want to argue with you but if they try and release morgan i can see it being a 2nd keko (free willy) whale and dieing
> 
> also as sad as it is they do seam to enjoy there work and unlike most people think they are not punished or have food with drawn if they dont do what is wanted of them
> 
> say they make it illegal to have them in shows or what not all the orcas in the shows world wide would be put down
> 
> also colin there is no point in the get her to norway and in a pen all that does not work as has already been proved by other whales


Just thought Id jump in here....the legality issue comes in with regards to 'capturing wild orca to use for entertainment purposes', these days company's can't just go out and catch a cetacean to use for entertainment, they have to get a permit...by law...or face the consequences and not in every country but in Europe and US which is what were talking about (the dolphinarium had to get a permit to bring Morgan in) so without a permit, it is illegal, the EU nor US gvmts will issue a permit to catch wild orca for entertainment purposes which is why the dolphinarium only got it based on "...to be returned to its natural environment when healthy"!!!. SW wanted Morgan from day 1 but they could not get a permit to transport her to US (had they transported her without a permit they would have broken the law), she has to 'already be a captive orca' before they would even be considered for a permit, by her living captive at LP, as far as I know the longer she is there the more chance they have of getting a permit!!

Its not illegal to breed captive orca or to keep them, its not even illegal in UK, its just that the tank requirements werent up to regs and its not so easy these days to start one up again (theres been talk about it from one or two companies).

Keiko, Im so done on the Keiko arguement, you really need to watch the doc when its available over here (some people have it already but I can only find on the US system). KEIKO WAS A SUCCESS!!! okay Ill put in another way, average age of a male orca is about 30 years, many (wild Im talking about) live until theyre in their 50's and 60's, Keiko was 27 when he died, had spent 20 years in captivity, was about 2 when he was captured and spent 5 years living free, first part of his freedom was in 2 seapens where he was rehabilitated, learned to hunt, went out on boat walks, underwent health checks etc etc...then he just went off by himself for about 2 years, hung around Iceland for a while then went off to Norway, mixed with various orca pods....still dont know if he fathered any calves...fed himself, took care of himself etc etc etc....please tell me how this was unsuccessful considering when he was first moved Sea World refused to give him a home in one of their tanks because he was so ill and diseased they didnt want the bad publicity if he died in transit or shortly after being moved.!!!

Question for you, how do you know they arent food deprived? how do you know theyre not isolated as a form of punishment? do you actually work in one of these circuses? Morgan, according to a couple of friends (personal friends I have that live in Tenerife) spends A LOT of time by herself, hanging around the gates ever since she was attacked by Ko and Sky, Adam spends A LOT of time by himself, did you know Morgan has scars on her snout from constantly hanging round, banging into the gates at Harderwijk to try and be with the dolphins (documented)....what part of 'highly social mammals' is so difficult to understand, thats exactly why this is used as a punishment...you want to make comparisons with dogs, its the equivelant of putting a dog in a crate for about 20 hours a day (which in this country, if you reported to the RSPCA for that, youd get a visit, then a warning and would probably lose your dog and end up in court.
As for the stimulation, I dont doubt for a minute that they like the 'interaction', theyre probably desperate for it, kind of like a dog thats been couped up in a crate for 20 hours!! does that mean its right? of course not, some of the 'tricks' they have to do can cause them damage, its actually dangerous for them beach themselves because of the weight on the internal organs, its dangerous for pregnant orca to throw themselves out of the water and crash down again....Kohana's due with her second calf around September (theyre pregnant for 17 months)...yet shes still performing, go check the stats on captive orca that have died while pregnant or miscarried or died while or shortly after giving birth, look at the stats for dead new born calves and every one of the mothers were performing through the pregnancy.

Can you also give me a link to show were releasing orca or any dolphins has not worked, I mean something with some significance. A lot of orca were released in the days when they were still catching them, bottlenose dolphins, pilot whales, belugas, false killer whales, risso dolphins...probably hundreds of them have been successfully released....why is that some people think its perfectly normal and 'doable' for orca to adapt to life in a tank, live on dead fish and learn to perform tricks yet the mere mention of them being able to survive back in their natural habitat where theyve spent about 50 million years evolving is 'giving them a death sentence'...!!!


----------



## Jackie-K

yugimon121 said:


> I believe cetaceans deserve a status as non-human people. while it seems ridiculous, we have hit an era where we know that intelligence and consciousness are not restricted to humans.
> Dolphins and orcas are being treated as items, a source of entertainment, which strips them of all of their natural instincts for human entertainment.
> Though this animal was ill, i think a release should at the least be attempted.
> while we may disagree on the status on this orca, atleast sign this
> Help Shut Down World's Smallest Dolphin Tank | Care2 Causes
> no one can possibly agree that this is right, of all things.
> then again being a vegan and an ALF supporter, my ideas may be very biased.


This is exactly why these water circuses need to shut down, we know a lot more about their inteligence now that weve ever known. More and more people now are against elephants being used in land circuses partly because the abuses are out there all over youtube and the media and partly because we now understand how inteligent and complex they are, its no different for bottlenose dolphins and orca in particular, the abuse though is not noticed because its not obvious, no ones taking a pitchfork to them, no ones kicking them (apart from Kshmanek(sp) in Argentina), theyre not chained by their fins 20 hours a day (or more)!! that doesnt mean the abuse doesnt go on....people still think dolphins are 'always smiling'...this give the illusion that they are happy, it only takes about 5 minutes to do a little research on google to find out 'thats how theyre bone structure is', they are not smiling!!


----------



## yugimon121

Jackie-K said:


> This is exactly why these water circuses need to shut down, we know a lot more about their inteligence now that weve ever known. More and more people now are against elephants being used in land circuses partly because the abuses are out there all over youtube and the media and partly because we now understand how inteligent and complex they are, its no different for bottlenose dolphins and orca in particular, the abuse though is not noticed because its not obvious, no ones taking a pitchfork to them, no ones kicking them (apart from Kshmanek(sp) in Argentina), theyre not chained by their fins 20 hours a day (or more)!! that doesnt mean the abuse doesnt go on....people still think dolphins are 'always smiling'...this give the illusion that they are happy, it only takes about 5 minutes to do a little research on google to find out 'thats how theyre bone structure is', they are not smiling!!


Agreed, there are so many animals who deserve a non-human person status, but since the topic is orcas, i decided to keep them out. But totally agree with you, i believe circuses shouldn't have any animals at all

Speaking of circuses, did the ban against exotic animals in circuses in the UK ever be passed?


----------



## Jackie-K

yugimon121 said:


> Agreed, there are so many animals who deserve a non-human person status, but since the topic is orcas, i decided to keep them out. But totally agree with you, i believe circuses shouldn't have any animals at all
> 
> Speaking of circuses, did the ban against exotic animals in circuses in the UK ever be passed?


Just been talking about that with someone, it goes for a vote June 23rd, 5 days after the Roberts are in court for the abuse on Annie.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I believe cetaceans deserve a status as non-human people. while it seems ridiculous, we have hit an era where we know that intelligence and consciousness are not restricted to humans.


Yeah ok, lets go with that.
So what happened is that we found a toddler on her own starving, parents had left or abandoned her. She was taken in by a medical centre and given food and medical care. When she was better it was decided that she needed more care so she was sent to a nice home where she could be fed, educated, and looked after. Would you expect anything else? We look after the vulnerable in our society, Morgan is vulnerable and is being looked after.

Jackie K - Keiko was free for 7 months and was never away from humans, not the 2 years you keep claiming. His release was a failure, or at least an ill advised move for an older boy.
Nobody but idiots think dolphins are smiling, they do however exhibit normal behaviour, eating well, breeding, socialising, which is how we measure animal health in captivity. Stressed animals lose weight or condition very quickly, we had a badly kept orca at my local zoo in the eighties, it lasted a few months, it was stressed and died. This is what we see in all species, humans included.
I can show you a tonne of cases where cetaceans have survived release, and some that havent, in this country if a cetacean beaches we shove it back in the sea because we have no rehab facilities and many of those do not survive.
From the many years that we have been doing this, wildlife rehab workers have discovered who is a good candidate for release, and who is not, SOS Dolfijn do amazing work, and have succesfully released plenty of endangered species that they could have sold for plenty, but they do what is best for the individual.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Yeah ok, lets go with that.
> So what happened is that we found a toddler on her own starving, parents had left or abandoned her. She was taken in by a medical centre and given food and medical care. When she was better it was decided that she needed more care so she was sent to a nice home where she could be fed, educated, and looked after. Would you expect anything else? We look after the vulnerable in our society, Morgan is vulnerable and is being looked after


now heres the difference, will this todler be allowed play in her nice home? will she be allowed to meet friends and go out in the breeze, cycle down the pavements and eventually start a happy family of her own? 
Orcas are kept in tanks where they are forced to swim back and forth, causing stress and lack of stimuli. yes, some such as the infamous sea world have those shows, but is that for the animals or the peoples enjoyment? i think we both know the answer to this one.
while animal conditions in captivity have increased dramatically, we are not ready yet for cetaceans. As you said some survive in the wild afterwards, some don't. But we can always try, can we not?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> now heres the difference, will this todler be allowed play in her nice home? will she be allowed to meet friends and go out in the breeze, cycle down the pavements and eventually start a happy family of her own?
> Orcas are kept in tanks where they are forced to swim back and forth, causing stress and lack of stimuli. yes, some such as the infamous sea world have those shows, but is that for the animals or the peoples enjoyment? i think we both know the answer to this one.
> while animal conditions in captivity have increased dramatically, we are not ready yet for cetaceans. As you said some survive in the wild afterwards, some don't. But we can always try, can we not?


You dislike orcas living without stimulation and dislike them training which is providing them with stimulation, can you truly have both? How would you provide stimulation for a captive animal? How do you provide stimulation for your wallabies? There may be an alternative to the current strategy.
Wild survival depends on the animal, SOS Dolfijn are really experts in their field and only release animals that they believe to have a chance, only 50% of their animals survive, if they believe an animal has no chance then it has more than 50% chance of dying, I don't believe the risk is worth it because I believe every animal should be given the best chance of a long happy life, but some believe that any risk is worth the small chance of a wild life.


----------



## Animalmadrew

Next thing you know, people are going to start calling orcas slaves... PETA Orca Slavery Lawsuit Has Disturbing Implications - Yahoo! News :whistling2:
If its quality of life is as bad as people are making it out to be and it also can't be released, then maybe we should just eat it... :whistling2:


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> You dislike orcas living without stimulation and dislike them training which is providing them with stimulation, can you truly have both? How would you provide stimulation for a captive animal? How do you provide stimulation for your wallabies? There may be an alternative to the current strategy.
> Wild survival depends on the animal, SOS Dolfijn are really experts in their field and only release animals that they believe to have a chance, only 50% of their animals survive, if they believe an animal has no chance then it has more than 50% chance of dying, I don't believe the risk is worth it because I believe every animal should be given the best chance of a long happy life, but some believe that any risk is worth the small chance of a wild life.


but the stimuli sea world provides is not efficient, going back to our toddler example it would be like placing a bike in a the hallway and telling him to go nuts. Yes he is on the bike, but it is not natural nor fun for the toddler. We are not able at this current time to provide to the orcas well enough.

My wallabies are on 4 2 acre fields, and comparing the size of the small 5 foot tall wallaby in these fields to the orcas (whose fins alone are taller than the wallaby's entire body) in sea world, the difference is huge. Also, marsupials need much less stimuli than orcas. cetaceans are probably the third most intelligent species (behind humans and primates) in the planet.



Animalmadrew said:


> Next thing you know, people are going to start calling orcas slaves... PETA Orca Slavery Lawsuit Has Disturbing Implications - Yahoo! News :whistling2:
> If its quality of life is as bad as people are making it out to be and it also can't be released, then maybe we should just eat it... :whistling2:


It isnt that it cant be released, its that they *don't* want to release it.
eating orcas? whats next, eating cats and dogs?! :whistling2:
(for those who don't get it, japanese/chinese eat orcas, dogs and cats)


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> Jackie K - Keiko was free for 7 months and was never away from humans, not the 2 years you keep claiming. His release was a failure, or at least an ill advised move for an older boy.


Were you there? Im sorry but I pay more attention to those who were actually involved in it all. No it wasnt perfect, no orca that had been held captive for 20 years had been released before...and again, like I said, his tank in Mexico was in a bad state and he was ill and diseased, he was offered to Sea World who refused to take him 'in case he died in transit, died shortly after they took him or infected their existing orca' !! According to actual experts he wouldnt have lived much longer in Mexico, his owners were happy to give him away!

Heres some of the facts, not opinions.
Keiko.com: The History of Keiko, the World's Most Famous Whale 

As for Morgan, she is still a candidate for release and there should be another hearing coming up soon. What I just dont get is why non experts or people who were not directly involved in the court hearings keep argueing this so here's some facts (timeline)...not mine or anyone elses opinion.

1.June 2010 Permit granted to rescue Morgan with the condition she is returned to her natural habitat as soon as she is healthy. Sea World notified of Morgan!!!

2. August 2010 DH reports Morgan is healthy

3. Sometime between then and Dec 2010 orca experts denied access to Morgan for further vocal recording and collecting DNA samples by DH which they needed to find her relatives

4. Dec 2010 DH announces Morgan not good candidate for release

5. August 2011 Orca Coalition go to court to fight for Morgans with rehab and slow release plan and to get permission to gain access to Morgan to continue with vocal recordings and get DNA. Judge orders DH to allow Morgan to interact with DH dolphins for socialization, orders DH to allow experts access to Morgan for testing/recording so rehab and release plan can go ahead if relatives are located. Orca Coaltition and Free Morgan Foundation consists of over 40 worldwide orca specialists/experts. DH has brought in 7 experts, DH experts tell judge Morgan is not good candidate for release

6. Not sure exactly when but within approx 6 weeks Morgans extended family are located

7. Initial potential sea pen location at Needle jans (sp) is dropped, new sea pen in Sto Norway agreed on

8. November 7 2011 Orca Coalition go back to court, important to note that 4 of the 7 experts brought in by DH have now switched sides and agree, due to finding Morgans extended family that she is now a GOOD candidtate for rehab and release. Also revealed at this time that DH never allowed Morgan to interact with dolphins because they have herpes

9 November 21 2011 Judges decision...due to loopholes in 2 Articles (12 and 16 I believe) in the EC Directives Morgan will go to Loro Parque for use in research. Research is to study how a wild caught orca communicates with captive bred/born orca!!!!

10. November 29 Morgan is moved to LP, Keissling (owner of LP) does interview with Spanish press, announces that LP 'has new blood'. Morgan is worth around $10,000,000 in entertainment and breeding for SW and LP, if she was rehabbed and released she would be worthless to them.

11. December (around 10) Morgan is seen with severe bite marks in her dorsal fin. Morgan repoted to be vocalizing excessively and consistently (according to experts she did this at DH and mainly after she had some attention, when people left or when she couldnt see the dolphins...this was put down to either attention seeking or stress)

12. December 24 (ish) video released of Morgan being attacked (9 times in 5 minutes) by Ko and Sky, video was sent to a number of actual experts to rule out rough play or establishing heirarchy, all experts came back (independantly) these were attacks

13. January 2012 Morgan spends most of her time (and still does) isolated, hanging around a gate, she doesnt vocalize so much any more and she is not very active

14. Morgan is appearing as part of the show but doesnt do most of the 'tricks' she's supposed to do

15. The fights not over!!


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> My wallabies are on 4 2 acre fields, and comparing the size of the small 5 foot tall wallaby in these fields to the orcas (whose fins alone are taller than the wallaby's entire body) in sea world, the difference is huge. Also, marsupials need much less stimuli than orcas. cetaceans are probably the third most intelligent species (behind humans and primates) in the planet.


You've kind of missed my point here, what I'm saying is that you can disagree with the form of stimulation that is best for an animal, but you must understand that some form is needed. Training is great stimulation in my opinion, we do it with loads of animals in captivity, parrots, dogs, monkeys, apes, elephants, it has proven to be good for the animals. 
Intelligence is a really hard thing to define and the current thinking is that all animals have such variance that is impossible to put them into any kind of 'top ten'. Cetaceans have complicated social structure, but so do bees, they team hunt, but so do dogs, they communicate with each other, but so does nearly every animal to a greater or lesser extent. 
Just found a nice paper on this point - Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans



yugimon121 said:


> It isnt that it cant be released, its that they *don't* want to release it.


As far as they are concerned her release would result in her death, so maybe it is that they don't want to, but that's because they don't want her dead.


----------



## Zoo-Man

Devi said:


> You've kind of missed my point here, what I'm saying is that you can disagree with the form of stimulation that is best for an animal, but you must understand that some form is needed. Training is great stimulation in my opinion, we do it with loads of animals in captivity, parrots, dogs, monkeys, apes, elephants, it has proven to be good for the animals.
> Intelligence is a really hard thing to define and the current thinking is that all animals have such variance that is impossible to put them into any kind of 'top ten'. Cetaceans have complicated social structure, but so do bees, they team hunt, but so do dogs, they communicate with each other, but so does nearly every animal to a greater or lesser extent.
> Just found a nice paper on this point - Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans
> 
> 
> 
> *As far as they are concerned her release would result in her death, so maybe it is that they don't want to, but that's because they don't want her dead*.


Or the fact that SeaWorld can make sacks of cash from her doing tricks watched by a paying public, whilst at the same time bringing new blood into their breeding program? :whistling2:


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Or the fact that SeaWorld can make sacks of cash from her doing tricks watched by a paying public, whilst at the same time bringing new blood into their breeding program? :whistling2:


She's not at seaworld and they do not have anything to do with her thus far apart from providing advice to SOS Dolfijn and subsequent caregivers. Your theory that they are after money also makes very little sense as there is nothing special about having 3 orca at loro parque rather than 2 that will make people rush there, if they wanted to maximise revenue she'd have stayed in harderwijk. They could also make more money by selling porpoise, of which there are very few in captivity, or the other species of dolphin like the white sided which are again rarely seen and could really draw crowds.


----------



## Stephen Nelson

At the end of the day with animals of that size and of that level of intelligence getting them back into the wild should be the only course of action. We can never hope to provide the level of stimulation or space required. The level of self awareness cetaceans express means that any form of captivity will be recognised by them as exactly that. 

You can liken them to a toddler in care all you want but ultimately a toddler will grow up and be free to go wherever it chooses. I think what people need to realise is that nature has a system in place and it is perfect by design. The only thing messing it up is us. 

The whale should be returned to her family. If it doesn't work out then she wasn't meant to survive in the first place and at least she will have taken her place in the natural cycle and provide food for other animals. Its harsh but true and definitely worth the risk because if it does work she will be living the life nature intended which will be 1 million times the life she will have in captivity.

Ultimately as long as the human population continues to grow the time these creatures have left diminishes. Can't we at least have the respect to allow them to go out with grace and not rob them of their dignity any more than we have to. We are going to kill them. That is the devastating fact of it. We certainly don't need to lock them up as well. 

Death is an important part of nature but then so is life. The nature of human beings however only brings death. The problem is when this monkey crawled out of the slime, invented its own language and crowned itself god because it was the only one that could understand it, it never had the intelligence to realise that when everything else is gone and the world is dead it will follow and the planet will simply start again without it. Even we are subject to natures laws. Maybe we should respect them instead of fighting them at every turn.

Give her the best chance and let her go. That is not sentimental. It is simply the way it should be.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> You've kind of missed my point here, what I'm saying is that you can disagree with the form of stimulation that is best for an animal, but you must understand that some form is needed. Training is great stimulation in my opinion, we do it with loads of animals in captivity, parrots, dogs, *monkeys, apes, elephants,*it has proven to be good for the animals.
> Intelligence is a really hard thing to define and the current thinking is that all animals have such variance that is impossible to put them into any kind of 'top ten'. Cetaceans have complicated social structure, but so do bees, they team hunt, but so do dogs, they communicate with each other, but so does nearly every animal to a greater or lesser extent.
> Just found a nice paper on this point - Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans
> 
> As far as they are concerned her release would result in her death, so maybe it is that they don't want to, but that's because they don't want her dead.


But you seem to misunderstand me, that while sea world provides some form of stimuli, *it is not enough.* you must have forgot this part when you replied. and i dont disagree with no stimulation, i disagree with keeping cetaceans in captivity in full!

I hope by stimuli you mean toys and puzzles, and not training for movies and human entertainment when you mentioned monkeys and apes.

Also, they wish to keep morgan to see how she interacts with captive breds. shes a part of a science experiment, an answer of curiosity for the humans. this may end in her death.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> But you seem to misunderstand me, that while sea world provides some form of stimuli, *it is not enough.* you must have forgot this part when you replied. and i dont disagree with no stimulation, i disagree with keeping cetaceans in captivity in full!
> 
> I hope by stimuli you mean toys and puzzles, and not training for movies and human entertainment when you mentioned monkeys and apes.
> 
> Also, they wish to keep morgan to see how she interacts with captive breds. shes a part of a science experiment, an answer of curiosity for the humans. this may end in her death.


Training for monkeys and apes can take many forms, every zoo I've ever been in trains for veterinary purposes, things like showing teeth and allowing injections, but all training is good for an animal as long as it does not use aversives, it keeps their mind working. The reason monkeys and apes should not be used for films is more to do with their social needs and general dangerousness than the training itself. I know a zoo that trains elephants to do basic tasks like weighing themselves and holding their legs up for foot care which they demonstrate to visitors for educational purposes, they love it and get rewarded with their favourite foods.
Orca too need training for veterinary purposes, they present for health checks and vaccinations, it's not like they're forced to do anything, I'd like to see anyone trying to force an animal that weighs multiple tonnes to do anything! 
As for the research paper, it's not an experiment in any definition of the word, it is research which involves observation of an animal to enhance our care for these animals in captivity and in the wild. It also conveniently means people are being paid to watch her all the time, which is great news for her.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Training for monkeys and apes can take many forms, every zoo I've ever been in trains for veterinary purposes, things like showing teeth and allowing injections, but all training is good for an animal as long as it does not use aversives, it keeps their mind working. The reason monkeys and apes should not be used for films is more to do with their social needs and general dangerousness than the training itself. I know a zoo that trains elephants to do basic tasks like weighing themselves and holding their legs up for foot care which they demonstrate to visitors for educational purposes, they love it and get rewarded with their favourite foods.
> Orca too need training for veterinary purposes, they present for health checks and vaccinations, it's not like they're forced to do anything, I'd like to see anyone trying to force an animal that weighs multiple tonnes to do anything!
> As for the research paper, it's not an experiment in any definition of the word, it is research which involves observation of an animal to enhance our care for these animals in captivity and in the wild. It also conveniently means people are being paid to watch her all the time, which is great news for her.



Thats ok, i thought for a moment you were saying using monkeys in movies was good, moving on...

As I said before the training* isnt bad, it just isnt enough*
I do classify it as an experiment, as experiment is:
a scientific procedure undertaken to make a discovery, test a hypothesis, or demonstrate a known fact
which, seeing they're trying to discover the effects of captive and wild bred orcas together, I say it fits well.
Morgan was attacked by captive bred orcas in december, next time it might be fatal, and as you said, how can a human _force an animal that weighs multiple tonnes to do anything_

This is not aimed at you, but just general knowledge for everyone

Keiko was kept in a warehouse for two years in a shallow pool, all alone out of public view

Heres one of many orca tanks in sea world, provided by our not-so-good friends PETA http://www.peta.org/cfs-filesystemf...0-01-48/0601.Seaworld465p2.jpg_2D00_465x0.jpg

Those who think some orcas have enough space, look at this inspirational image http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lic8f0NC4L1qfdn20o1_500.png

Ever noticed sea world orcas have a floppy dorsal fin? while no one knows why yet, the two most common theories is that because of lack of excersize the muscle collapses, or the extra exposure to the sunlight softens the collagen and during the growth spurt in the early teenage years, when the fin becomes large and heavy, unlike wild orcas, the animals do not regularly dive to great depths where the fin would be kept straight by the water pressure exerted on it, allowing the collagen to harden with time.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Thats ok, i thought for a moment you were saying using monkeys in movies was good, moving on...
> 
> As I said before the training* isnt bad, it just isnt enough*
> I do classify it as an experiment, as experiment is:
> a scientific procedure undertaken to make a discovery, test a hypothesis, or demonstrate a known fact
> which, seeing they're trying to discover the effects of captive and wild bred orcas together, I say it fits well.


That's exactly it, no procedure has taken place. I know people who watch orangutans in the forest, that is not an experiment because nothing is being done, it's research. Animal experimentation is a very emotive topic, and personally something I mostly disagree with few exceptions. Research is different and is the reason we know anything about the natural world as a whole.



yugimon121 said:


> This is not aimed at you, but just general knowledge for everyone
> 
> Keiko was kept in a warehouse for two years in a shallow pool, all alone out of public view
> 
> Heres one of many orca tanks in sea world, provided by our not-so-good friends PETA http://www.peta.org/cfs-filesystemf...0-01-48/0601.Seaworld465p2.jpg_2D00_465x0.jpg
> 
> Those who think some orcas have enough space, look at this inspirational image http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lic8f0NC4L1qfdn20o1_500.png
> 
> Ever noticed sea world orcas have a floppy dorsal fin? while no one knows why yet, the two most common theories is that because of lack of excersize the muscle collapses, or the extra exposure to the sunlight softens the collagen and during the growth spurt in the early teenage years, when the fin becomes large and heavy, unlike wild orcas, the animals do not regularly dive to great depths where the fin would be kept straight by the water pressure exerted on it, allowing the collagen to harden with time.


Keiko and many other animals in the past were kept very badly, I've already mentioned in this thread that my local zoo kept orca in the past, look at this for a stupidly tiny tank -








We have moved forward since then and realise that orca are social animals who need space.
Peta however are being a bit silly with the above diagram that shows a whale in a small holding enclosure that they wait in while swapping tanks or waiting for their bit in a show. They have multiple tanks and swim between them, it's pretty large considering what we normally provide ocean going animals with. Some tanks are old and need a serious update, but not all and I don't know of a single cetacean keeping organisation who are not planning expansion or a change of species for the smaller tanks.
Take a look at this -








You can barely see the orca in those tanks and they have access to all of them, compared to the last tank it's enormous and even then it's being expanded.

Oh and the dorsal fin thingy - it often happens to males in captivity, it might look strange, but it isn't an indicator of ill health, there's a bunch of research being done on it and it doesn't seem to have the slightest health impact. It even happens in wild orca though less often.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> That's exactly it, no procedure has taken place. I know people who watch orangutans in the forest, that is not an experiment because nothing is being done, it's research. Animal experimentation is a very emotive topic, and personally something I mostly disagree with few exceptions. Research is different and is the reason we know anything about the natural world as a whole.


But if the people shot one orangutan and watched what the others do, according to you, would still be research.
The people set this experiment (or for your sake "research") up, they are risking morgan's and possibly the others lives for this. If this occurred naturally, i would not object to humans just watching as it is natural, but when humans set it up to see it's effects, that is more than research. In chemistry, if i place HCL and marble chips together to make CO2, yes i am watching co2 being made but i made it happen to begin with. research is a piece of an experiment, and morgan is a part of this experiment.




> Keiko and many other animals in the past were kept very badly, I've already mentioned in this thread that my local zoo kept orca in the past, look at this for a stupidly tiny tank -
> image
> We have moved forward since then and realise that orca are social animals who need space.
> Peta however are being a bit silly with the above diagram that shows a whale in a small holding enclosure that they wait in while swapping tanks or waiting for their bit in a show. They have multiple tanks and swim between them, it's pretty large considering what we normally provide ocean going animals with. Some tanks are old and need a serious update, but not all and I don't know of a single cetacean keeping organisation who are not planning expansion or a change of species for the smaller tanks.
> Take a look at this -
> image
> You can barely see the orca in those tanks and they have access to all of them, compared to the last tank it's enormous and even then it's being expanded.


While PETA is silly, their ideas are good, great even. even if it is a temporary place, that is still much too small. Also, As said before, we cannot properly care for them yet. Yes they are fascinating creatures, but its in the sea where they belong.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> But if the people shot one orangutan and watched what the others do, according to you, would still be research.
> The people set this experiment (or for your sake "research") up, they are risking morgan's and possibly the others lives for this. If this occurred naturally, i would not object to humans just watching as it is natural, but when humans set it up to see it's effects, that is more than research. In chemistry, if i place HCL and marble chips together to make CO2, yes i am watching co2 being made but i made it happen to begin with. research is a piece of an experiment, and morgan is a part of this experiment.


They haven't shot anything though, Morgan is there because that's the safest place for her at the moment. The research is taking advantage of the situation not the primary purpose.




yugimon121 said:


> While PETA is silly, their ideas are good, great even. even if it is a temporary place, that is still much too small. Also, As said before, we cannot properly care for them yet. Yes they are fascinating creatures, but its in the sea where they belong.


I like PETA, don't get me wrong, they have some great campaigns, but they have some silly ones too. 
Now, we've got to the crux of the matter, why do some animals belong only in the wild but others in the captivity? Where do we draw the line?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> They haven't shot anything though, Morgan is there because that's the safest place for her at the moment. The research is taking advantage of the situation not the primary purpose.


but it is, her family has been located, she is now healthy, attacks from captive bred orcas will only make things worse






Devi said:


> I like PETA, don't get me wrong, they have some great campaigns, but they have some silly ones too.
> Now, we've got to the crux of the matter, why do some animals belong only in the wild but others in the captivity? Where do we draw the line?


That differs as it is a matter of opinion. I believe the line is drawn when the people cannot properly care for them, and seeing as i believe orcas can't be cared for properly, keeping cetaceans crosses the line


----------



## em_40

'Oh the rare old Whale, mid storm and gale
In his ocean home will be
A giant in might, where the might is right,
And king of the boundless sea'

Always think of that lil song when I think of Whales, I was absolutely obssesed with them as a kid and I loved that song. 

Another fitting quote from a much-read book of mine is 'No sooner does man discover intelligence than he tries to involve it in his own stupidity' -Jaqcues Cousteau.


I still don't think that the care we give to these giants is good enough, and for me alot of it is about space (and depth) I think that even in your good example they are still tiny tanks, and they still have hardly any shade. There is more seating area than swimming area for the orca, which says something about their priorities.


----------



## Zoo-Man

Dorsal fin collapse is thought to be due to the Orcas not having enough depth of water, as the water pressure helps keep the dorsal fin upright. This shows that Orcas in captivity cannot be provided with natural environments, as their tanks are never deep enough.

The PETA photograph, showing an Orca in a tiny pool is, I believe, a pic of Tilikum in the pool he was kept in for some time after he killed the trainer. 

And no, you can't actually force a huge animal such as an Orca into doing what you want them to do, but who's to say that food withdrawal & the resulting hunger, doesn't make the Orcas more aimiable & co-operative?


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Dorsal fin collapse is thought to be due to the Orcas not having enough depth of water, as the water pressure helps keep the dorsal fin upright. This shows that Orcas in captivity cannot be provided with natural environments, as their tanks are never deep enough.
> 
> The PETA photograph, showing an Orca in a tiny pool is, I believe, a pic of Tilikum in the pool he was kept in for some time after he killed the trainer.
> 
> And no, you can't actually force a huge animal such as an Orca into doing what you want them to do, but who's to say that food withdrawal & the resulting hunger, doesn't make the Orcas more aimiable & co-operative?


Nobody knows why dorsal fins collapse, but if it is depth, then it truly doesn't matter, orca go deep to feed, in captivity they don't need to feed. Just like how reindeer in captivity are nomadic to follow the food source, this isn't needed in captivity. I wonder how natural some peoples pets are kept on here? Tree snakes in 2 foot high vivs, frogs in tanks where it never rains, even baby spiders kept in film tubes, do film tubes even grow in the wild? Just because it does not exactly replicate the outside world does not mean that it is bad in any way and may even be better for the animal.
The PETA photograph definitely shows a small holding pool, on googling the story you suggested all I found was a few references to the two pregnant females at Sealand chasing him into a holding tank in their old home, which led to seaworld coming and rescuing him.
Finally, I don't think you quite understand how the training works, an animal needs a set amount of food per day or it loses condition and dies, that is pretty basic stuff. What we do when we are training an animal, be it dog, monkey, or cetacean, is use a portion or all of that food for training, the animal will get it's food always, but they need to work out how to get it, this is what happens in the wild, they work for their food. This is how we keep our dogs, yet somehow it's bad for Orca?


----------



## Zoo-Man

Devi said:


> Nobody knows why dorsal fins collapse, but if it is depth, then it truly doesn't matter, orca go deep to feed, in captivity they don't need to feed. Just like how reindeer in captivity are nomadic to follow the food source, this isn't needed in captivity. I wonder how natural some peoples pets are kept on here? Tree snakes in 2 foot high vivs, frogs in tanks where it never rains, even baby spiders kept in film tubes, do film tubes even grow in the wild? Just because it does not exactly replicate the outside world does not mean that it is bad in any way and may even be better for the animal.
> The PETA photograph definitely shows a small holding pool, on googling the story you suggested all I found was a few references to the two pregnant females at Sealand chasing him into a holding tank in their old home, which led to seaworld coming and rescuing him.
> Finally, I don't think you quite understand how the training works, an animal needs a set amount of food per day or it loses condition and dies, that is pretty basic stuff. What we do when we are training an animal, be it dog, monkey, or cetacean, is use a portion or all of that food for training, the animal will get it's food always, but they need to work out how to get it, this is what happens in the wild, they work for their food. This is how we keep our dogs, yet somehow it's bad for Orca?


A relatively unintelligent snake, spider or frog isn't very comparable to a highly intelligent cetacean is it? A snake wont suffer from not having the height in its viv, as long as it has something to climb on. Plus, Orcas in tanks are exposed to high levels of UV light, something they can easily escape in the wild. So really, captive Orcas are deprived of space (ie depth), & made to be exposed to higher levels of potentially harmful UV rays than they would naturally be exposed to.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Nobody knows why dorsal fins collapse, but if it is depth, then it truly doesn't matter, orca go deep to feed, in captivity they don't need to feed. Just like how reindeer in captivity are nomadic to follow the food source, this isn't needed in captivity. I wonder how natural some peoples pets are kept on here? Tree snakes in 2 foot high vivs, frogs in tanks where it never rains, even baby spiders kept in film tubes, do film tubes even grow in the wild? Just because it does not exactly replicate the outside world does not mean that it is bad in any way and may even be better for the animal.
> The PETA photograph definitely shows a small holding pool, on googling the story you suggested all I found was a few references to the two pregnant females at Sealand chasing him into a holding tank in their old home, which led to seaworld coming and rescuing him.
> Finally, I don't think you quite understand how the training works, an animal needs a set amount of food per day or it loses condition and dies, that is pretty basic stuff. What we do when we are training an animal, be it dog, monkey, or cetacean, is use a portion or all of that food for training, the animal will get it's food always, but they need to work out how to get it, this is what happens in the wild, they work for their food. This is how we keep our dogs, yet somehow it's bad for Orca?


Humidity is provided to frogs which give them the same effect as rain, and my friend actually has an artificial raining system set up in his enclosure. I can't reply about snakes as i never owned them, but the difference is that cetaceans are much more intelligent than any reptile. To keep my frogs and reptiles busy, i switch around the decorations when cleaning the enclosure out, so they have a new area to explore. sea world could do the same with the Orc- Oh wait, i just realized its an empty pool. I dont know about you, but im pretty sure the orca habitat has SOME form of flora, which isnt replicated at all in captivity. I'm not saying they need flora (it would lessen the amount of small space they have) but even if it is film tubes, who cares? as long as its safe for them and provides entertainment, i dont see a problem.

And dogs arent cetaceans. I don't know about you, but my collie is allowed roam my garden freely, unlike the orcas locked up in tanks. My dog is not forced to do any tricks. I let him meet alot of people as a puppy, and brought him to the vet for a check up at a young age. he didnt need any training by not feeding him.
Also, do you know that dolphins in captivity are bought from the dolphin slaughtering business? by supporting places **** sea world, you support the murder of dolphins.

And we're losing the purpose here. While I and every member except devi on here agree cetaceans shouldnt be in captivity, this thread is for Morgan. Morgan is healthy, her family has been located and she is ready to go. Some scientist and manager want to keep her for *experiments* and money, so we must lobby them to free her, that's the purpose of this thread.


----------



## Devi

And yet again both of you describe Orcas as somehow magically more intelligent than every other animal on earth. 
Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans
This article, which I've already posted covers the basic knowledge in place. 
Honestly, if you disagree with one animal being kept in captivity, then you have to disagree with all. 
Yugimon, no dolphin in the western world has been taken from the slaughtering business since the eighties. Please research before you make statements.
On the way of tank decor, orca are open sea animals, the area they reside in has no decor whatsoever, hence this is what they need in captivity. Many do have toys, but a nice plant or stick is just going to be for humans, and take up swimming space for the animals.
On the purpose of training, are you genuinely saying your dog doesn't sit? Or lie down? I really doubt that. And unless you trained the dog by hitting it whenever it did the wrong thing, I can guarantee you trained it with rewards of food, or maybe toys. This isn't starving an animal at all, and to suggest it would be is ridiculous.


----------



## Animalmadrew

Zoo-Man said:


> A relatively unintelligent snake, spider or frog isn't very comparable to a highly intelligent cetacean is it? A snake wont suffer from not having the height in its viv, as long as it has something to climb on. Plus, Orcas in tanks are exposed to high levels of UV light, something they can easily escape in the wild. So really, captive Orcas are deprived of space (ie depth), & made to be exposed to higher levels of potentially harmful UV rays than they would naturally be exposed to.


I'm not quite sure I understand, but is it that because the orca is more intelligent and you say, would suffer more than an animal such as a snake, it should not be deprived of space as it would have detrimental effects on the orca, however it is fine to keep a snake in an enclosure which is not like its natural environment. Humans however, are more intelligent than cetaceans and overcrowding in human populations has been seen to have detrimental effects, such as conflict within the population. Would expanding the orca's enclosure or releasing it and having humans not encroach on its natural environment (which I am assuming you are against as the orca would be 'deprived of space') not mean that humans, the more intelligent of the two, would be 'deprived of space'? Would this mean that Morgan should be released, along with all other orcas, but then as the human population (which would suffer from a lack of space) increases, humans should claim the orca's natural environment as they require more space and a lack of it would have detrimental effects on them? Would this also mean that humans could carry on encroaching on other animal’s environments as humans are more intelligent and would suffer more from a lack of space? Should people round up all of the snakes, spiders and frogs and put them in captivity, only meeting their minimum requirements, but still not depriving them of what they need?
I'd just like to say, I do not necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but it has just made me a bit confused. Would you please be able to clear these things up for me?
Thanks :2thumb:
Oh and sorry if I'm not making much sense, I'm just a bit confused and I could just be overthinging things :blowup:


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> And yet again both of you describe Orcas as somehow magically more intelligent than every other animal on earth.
> Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans
> This article, which I've already posted covers the basic knowledge in place.
> Honestly, if you disagree with one animal being kept in captivity, then you have to disagree with all.
> Yugimon, no dolphin in the western world has been taken from the slaughtering business since the eighties. Please research before you make statements.
> On the way of tank decor, orca are open sea animals, the area they reside in has no decor whatsoever, hence this is what they need in captivity. Many do have toys, but a nice plant or stick is just going to be for humans, and take up swimming space for the animals.
> On the purpose of training, are you genuinely saying your dog doesn't sit? Or lie down? I really doubt that. And unless you trained the dog by hitting it whenever it did the wrong thing, I can guarantee you trained it with rewards of food, or maybe toys. This isn't starving an animal at all, and to suggest it would be is ridiculous.


Whales and dolphins (cetaceans) are probably the smartest animals in the aquatic world. Like humans, cetaceans are capable of creating a mental image of and communicating with their fellows at great distances, using echolocation and special clicking noises. Some of these "songs" can be quite complex, and humans are at a loss to describe what they mean, though what has been uncovered is a testament to the animals' intelligence. Reptiles make calls for territorial warning and mating. which sounds more intelligent to you?

I have said before and I will say it again, I'm not against keeping against orcas *If we can care for them properly*
Despite your belief, we do not care for them properly in current time. If lizards were kept in lunch boxes and a dog in a cupboard, I would be against keeping them in captivity. But they are kept well, so I have no objection with them in captivity. I would be against monkeys in captivity as well except for people like Peter and Zoo-man showing that they can be cared for well in captivity.

While it is for human showing mainly, I was showing you that even though people use unnatural things in captivity, as long as they are safe and do their job whats the problem?

Yes my dog can sit, and yes it can lie down, but i do not force it to either sit or starve, like the method your suggesting where animals must work for their food.


----------



## Animalmadrew

yugimon121 said:


> Yes my dog can sit, and yes it can lie down, but i do not force it to either sit or starve, like the method your suggesting where animals must work for their food.


Isnt it generally accepted in our society that *people* have to work for their food? 
...just a thought... :whistling2:


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Whales and dolphins (cetaceans) are probably the smartest animals in the aquatic world. Like humans, cetaceans are capable of creating a mental image of and communicating with their fellows at great distances, using echolocation and special clicking noises. Some of these "songs" can be quite complex, and humans are at a loss to describe what they mean, though what has been uncovered is a testament to the animals' intelligence. Reptiles make calls for territorial warning and mating. which sounds more intelligent to you?


Orca indeed communicate with a variety of sounds, although nowhere near as many as a parrot or some other bird types. They make mainly clicks and whistles however, and not the 'songs' we tend to hear from true whales. One scientist has found 186 sounds that they make, only 11 of which are used frequently. 
Bats can also use echolocation, so that's not really a sign of massive intelligence either.



yugimon121 said:


> Yes my dog can sit, and yes it can lie down, but i do not force it to either sit or starve, like the method your suggesting where animals must work for their food.


Like I said before, no animal keeper will starve their animals, they die, that isn't really helpful to keeper or animal is it? When I kept rodents I would scatter feed or bury their food, with my mice I hung treats from the roof so they had to decipher how to climb up to it. When I worked at a zoo we hid food for monkeys in branches or inside toys, sometimes with complicated puzzles to work out. 
What do you think a wild animal has? A nice food bowl with their name on? Of course not, they hunt for the food! In captivity we replace the hunt with other types of work to best replicate the natural world.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Orca indeed communicate with a variety of sounds, although nowhere near as many as a parrot or some other bird types. They make mainly clicks and whistles however, and not the 'songs' we tend to hear from true whales. One scientist has found 186 sounds that they make, only 11 of which are used frequently.
> Bats can also use echolocation, so that's not really a sign of massive intelligence either.
> 
> Like I said before, no animal keeper will starve their animals, they die, that isn't really helpful to keeper or animal is it? When I kept rodents I would scatter feed or bury their food, with my mice I hung treats from the roof so they had to decipher how to climb up to it. When I worked at a zoo we hid food for monkeys in branches or inside toys, sometimes with complicated puzzles to work out.
> What do you think a wild animal has? A nice food bowl with their name on? Of course not, they hunt for the food! In captivity we replace the hunt with other types of work to best replicate the natural world.


I never said starve to death, just starve until they do it right.
And you do it to enrich the monkeys minds, while sea world does it for the money.

Cetaceans are more intelligent than most animals. 
Orcas mourn their dead, right whales have accents and dolphins like to have fun and they “talk” in their sleep. They know that it is themselves in a mirror, which shows more intelligence than most animals.
Ultimate Guide: Dolphins


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I never said starve to death, just starve until they do it right.
> And you do it to enrich the monkeys minds, while sea world does it for the money.


I will repeat yet again, Morgan isn't anywhere near sea world. It is kind of funny however that you can clearly see that the situation is the same yet for some reason it's wrong in one situation but not the other? 



yugimon121 said:


> Cetaceans are more intelligent than most animals.
> Orcas mourn their dead, right whales have accents and dolphins like to have fun and they “talk” in their sleep. They know that it is themselves in a mirror, which shows more intelligence than most animals.
> Ultimate Guide: Dolphins


Quite a lot wrong here, firstly dolphins don't sleep, so not sure where you've got that from. Many animals recognise themselves in a mirror, this includes magpies, it's a test of self recognition not intelligence. Most animals become quiet on the death of a companion, cats for example can even go through a period of starvation, again not really suggesting intelligence, but more a reaction to a change. We really have no idea why they do it, however much we want to anthromorphise it.
Finally, your linked article actually contains the phrase -


> a more scientific analysis of dolphin sounds suggests that for all their communication skills, dolphins lack the repertoire to have anything approaching language as we know it.


 So it's not really supporting your point.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> I will repeat yet again, Morgan isn't anywhere near sea world. It is kind of funny however that you can clearly see that the situation is the same yet for some reason it's wrong in one situation but not the other?


I think its quite clear the topic changed from morgan to all cetaceans, though i did try change it back a few posts back. if we were still talking about orca, why would we be mentioning sea world, cetaceans, keiko and intelligence?



> Quite a lot wrong here, firstly dolphins don't sleep, so not sure where you've got that from. Many animals recognise themselves in a mirror, this includes magpies, it's a test of self recognition not intelligence. Most animals become quiet on the death of a companion, cats for example can even go through a period of starvation, again not really suggesting intelligence, but more a reaction to a change. We really have no idea why they do it, however much we want to anthromorphise it.
> Finally, your linked article actually contains the phrase - So it's not really supporting your point.


HowStuffWorks "Do whales and dolphins sleep?"
dolphins do sleep, they just aren't completely unconscious.
But they mourn, the cetaceans cry for their lost partner. I own cats and they do miss look for their lost partner, but they still purred when i rubbed them, they still follow me around the house and they still played with their toy.
I am officially changing the topic back to Morgan, unless you want to try to "disapprove" my facts again.
Morgan has no reason to be in captivity
she is healthy
she hasnt been in captivity too long
her family has been located
Free Morgan the Orca!
I can see the way places like sea world are going, its only a matter of time before they reveal their Blue Whale Aquarium


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> HowStuffWorks "Do whales and dolphins sleep?"
> dolphins do sleep, they just aren't completely unconscious.
> But they mourn, the cetaceans cry for their lost partner. I own cats and they do miss look for their lost partner, but they still purred when i rubbed them, they still follow me around the house and they still played with their toy.


Dolphins sleep half a brain at a time, so are never asleep, this means the claim that they talk in their sleep is impossible. 
How can you possibly claim to know the mind of a non verbal animal? Do you have any research to back up your claims? Or are you simply making emotive statements with no knowledge?
Grief style behaviour has been observed in a lot of animals, have you never heard of greyfriars bobby? It is not exclusive to cetaceans in any way.
Even Ingrid Visser, who is involved with the campaign you are trying to support says that she believes that the behaviour seen in dolphins such as pushing a dead animal to the surface or repeatedly vocalising to them is because the animal may not recognise that they are dead - Article from PFK


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Dolphins sleep half a brain at a time, so are never asleep, this means the claim that they talk in their sleep is impossible.
> How can you possibly claim to know the mind of a non verbal animal? Do you have any research to back up your claims? Or are you simply making emotive statements with no knowledge?
> Grief style behaviour has been observed in a lot of animals, have you never heard of greyfriars bobby? It is not exclusive to cetaceans in any way.
> Even Ingrid Visser, who is involved with the campaign you are trying to support says that she believes that the behaviour seen in dolphins such as pushing a dead animal to the surface or repeatedly vocalising to them is because the animal may not recognise that they are dead - Article from PFK


it can be possible for them to talk in their sleep, it doesnt make them very intelligent, but it is still possible.
I never said it was exclusive to orcas, and please, find the quote where i said dogs *weren't * intelligent? I only said orcas were smarter than dogs, that doesn't make them dumb.
it may be possible, it may be not. that is not a fact, and therefor is invalid.
Are you skipping what i say about morgan? this is the second time i tried bring her back, but it seems you are either ignoring or just not seeing it.
I'll repost it just for you
Morgan has no reason to be in captivity
she is healthy
she hasnt been in captivity too long
her family has been located
Free Morgan the Orca!
I can see the way places like sea world are going, its only a matter of time before they reveal their Blue Whale Aquarium


----------



## Zoo-Man

Animalmadrew said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand, but is it that because the orca is more intelligent and you say, would suffer more than an animal such as a snake, it should not be deprived of space as it would have detrimental effects on the orca, however it is fine to keep a snake in an enclosure which is not like its natural environment. Humans however, are more intelligent than cetaceans and overcrowding in human populations has been seen to have detrimental effects, such as conflict within the population. Would expanding the orca's enclosure or releasing it and having humans not encroach on its natural environment (which I am assuming you are against as the orca would be 'deprived of space') not mean that humans, the more intelligent of the two, would be 'deprived of space'? Would this mean that Morgan should be released, along with all other orcas, but then as the human population (which would suffer from a lack of space) increases, humans should claim the orca's natural environment as they require more space and a lack of it would have detrimental effects on them? Would this also mean that humans could carry on encroaching on other animal’s environments as humans are more intelligent and would suffer more from a lack of space? Should people round up all of the snakes, spiders and frogs and put them in captivity, only meeting their minimum requirements, but still not depriving them of what they need?
> I'd just like to say, I do not necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but it has just made me a bit confused. Would you please be able to clear these things up for me?
> Thanks :2thumb:
> Oh and sorry if I'm not making much sense, I'm just a bit confused and I could just be overthinging things :blowup:


I didn't mean that we should only give frogs, snakes, etc the bare minimum of housing, just that they would suffer far less than a much more intelligent animal. Thats obvious. A chimpanzee kept in a small cage would suffer much more than lizard kept in a small vivarium. I wasn't including humans in that theory. And to be honest, if it were up to me, I'd reduce the human population by having a cull of all the dead-beats, druggies, nut-jobs, etc.


----------



## yugimon121

Zoo-Man said:


> I didn't mean that we should only give frogs, snakes, etc the bare minimum of housing, just that they would suffer far less than a much more intelligent animal. Thats obvious. A chimpanzee kept in a small cage would suffer much more than lizard kept in a small vivarium. I wasn't including humans in that theory. And to be honest, if it were up to me, I'd reduce the human population by having a cull of all the dead-beats, druggies, nut-jobs, etc.


you forgot rupert murdoch...


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> it can be possible for them to talk in their sleep, it doesnt make them very intelligent, but it is still possible.
> I never said it was exclusive to orcas, and please, find the quote where i said dogs *weren't * intelligent? I only said orcas were smarter than dogs, that doesn't make them dumb.
> it may be possible, it may be not. that is not a fact, and therefor is invalid.
> Are you skipping what i say about morgan? this is the second time i tried bring her back, but it seems you are either ignoring or just not seeing it.
> I'll repost it just for you
> Morgan has no reason to be in captivity
> she is healthy
> she hasnt been in captivity too long
> her family has been located
> Free Morgan the Orca!
> I can see the way places like sea world are going, its only a matter of time before they reveal their Blue Whale Aquarium


It is impossible for an animal which is never asleep to talk in their sleep. That's pretty obvious stuff. 
I'm not sure what you want me to respond to on your morgan rant? I've explained before on this thread why we need animals in captivity (conservation, education, ambassadorship). The amount of time she has been in captivity doesn't really negate the fact that she has been assessed as unsuitable for release by experts. Some people have located a pod of orca who may or may not be related to her, she may or may not have been born in this pod or ever met any of it's members, but either way she was found at an extremely young age having been abandoned by her pod for reasons unknown and left to starve. 
All this has been stated earlier in the thread, maybe you'd like to read back over it?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> It is impossible for an animal which is never asleep to talk in their sleep. That's pretty obvious stuff.
> I'm not sure what you want me to respond to on your morgan rant? I've explained before on this thread why we need animals in captivity (conservation, education, ambassadorship). The amount of time she has been in captivity doesn't really negate the fact that she has been assessed as unsuitable for release by experts. Some people have located a pod of orca who may or may not be related to her, she may or may not have been born in this pod or ever met any of it's members, but either way she was found at an extremely young age having been abandoned by her pod for reasons unknown and left to starve.
> All this has been stated earlier in the thread, maybe you'd like to read back over it?


correction: it sleeps consciously. half of its brain is off at a time, yet it can still communicate with other dolphins. sleep-talking, if you will.
But i told you already, this thread is about morgan, not cetaceans. 
» From the Experts
well these experts disagree and say she should be released.
Harderwijk Dolfinarium did not reveal the results of the DNA test, but people have seen form her vocalizations she may be from a pod in norway.
If they want the best for her, wouldnt they have released the dna tests?
I have already read the thread, and the title
"Help Morgan the Orca"
Just out of curiousity, why dont you create a petition against freeing morgan? I mean, i know you'll be the only one to sign it besides the people at Harderwijk Dolfinarium and sea world, but still..


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> correction: it sleeps consciously. half of its brain is off at a time, yet it can still communicate with other dolphins. sleep-talking, if you will.
> But i told you already, this thread is about morgan, not cetaceans.
> » From the Experts
> well these experts disagree and say she should be released.
> Harderwijk Dolfinarium did not reveal the results of the DNA test, but people have seen form her vocalizations she may be from a pod in norway.
> If they want the best for her, wouldnt they have released the dna tests?
> I have already read the thread, and the title
> "Help Morgan the Orca"
> Just out of curiousity, why dont you create a petition against freeing morgan? I mean, i know you'll be the only one to sign it besides the people at Harderwijk Dolfinarium and sea world, but still..


I'm going to drop the sleeping thing because you are now arguing against yourself, sleeping consciously is an oxymoron, as i suspect you realise!
The 'experts' on the above link appear to be a few ex trainers without qualifications and a man who wrote a book. Ric O'Barry, who is quoted, has actually been prosecuted for animal cruelty, as detailed here - Sugarloaf
Now how many of those have been involved in a successful cetacean release? Because I think you'll find that SOS Dolfijn have performed 45 of them. Which I think makes them a touch more qualified to decide whether it will be successful.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> I'm going to drop the sleeping thing because you are now arguing against yourself, sleeping consciously is an oxymoron, as i suspect you realise!
> The 'experts' on the above link appear to be a few ex trainers without qualifications and a man who wrote a book. Ric O'Barry, who is quoted, has actually been prosecuted for animal cruelty, as detailed here - Sugarloaf
> Now how many of those have been involved in a successful cetacean release? Because I think you'll find that SOS Dolfijn have performed 45 of them. Which I think makes them a touch more qualified to decide whether it will be successful.


Sleep is a naturally recurring state characterized by *reduced* or absent consciousness, relatively suspended sensory activity, and inactivity of nearly all voluntary muscles
I placed reduced in bold. They turn off half of their brain, they reduced their consciousness.
Yes ric o' barry was charged, but did you see what for? though he went about it foolishly, his idea was in the right place.
Even an expert doctor makes mistakes sometimes. Morgan is SOS Dolfijn's. We request atleast the DNA tests, if they didnt locate the family there should be no reason to hide it...right? Unless they did find the family, but decided to keep morgan for the experiment that we already argued about before.


----------



## Animalmadrew

Zoo-Man said:


> I didn't mean that we should only give frogs, snakes, etc the bare minimum of housing, just that they would suffer far less than a much more intelligent animal. Thats obvious. A chimpanzee kept in a small cage would suffer much more than lizard kept in a small vivarium. I wasn't including humans in that theory. And to be honest, if it were up to me, I'd reduce the human population by having a cull of all the dead-beats, druggies, nut-jobs, etc.


I wouldn't like to overreact, so before I react, I would like to know what you mean by then term 'nut-jobs'?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Yes ric o' barry was charged, but did you see what for? though he went about it foolishly, his idea was in the right place.
> Even an expert doctor makes mistakes sometimes. Morgan is SOS Dolfijn's. We request atleast the DNA tests, if they didnt locate the family there should be no reason to hide it...right? Unless they did find the family, but decided to keep morgan for the experiment that we already argued about before.


Ric O'Barry nearly killed one dolphin and was responsible for the death of another for publicity. He's at best stupid, and at worst a danger to marine wildlife. He is currently claiming having worked with dolphins for 45 years, when his only experience of dolphins is as one of the many trainers who worked with Kathy, one of 5 dolphins who played flipper. Through this very brief experience he has made millions from books and a film. Yet he admits himself that he used an electric cattle prod on Kathy!
Finally, as already stated, unless we discover how Morgan ended up being abandoned it really doesn't matter if you find her family, they may have rejected her for any number of reasons, and may well do so again. One possibility is that a new male entered the pod and ousted recent offspring in order to produce his own, another is that her mother was killed, these are of course speculation, but in both these cases reintroduction would lead to at very least attacks on her.


----------



## Skarlet

Zoo-Man said:


> And to be honest, if it were up to me, I'd reduce the human population by having a cull of all the dead-beats, druggies, nut-jobs, etc.


When did being addicted to something make your life worthless? Deadbeats, does that include all people on the dole, or homeless through no fault of their own? Are we to take up eugenics and have people decide our worth by our genes, or our sexuality, or ability to reproduce?

I wish people would think about this before making such sweeping statements about peoples worth. Addiction can be beaten, homelessness can be helped.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Ric O'Barry nearly killed one dolphin and was responsible for the death of another for publicity. He's at best stupid, and at worst a danger to marine wildlife. He is currently claiming having worked with dolphins for 45 years, when his only experience of dolphins is as one of the many trainers who worked with Kathy, one of 5 dolphins who played flipper. Through this very brief experience he has made millions from books and a film. Yet he admits himself that he used an electric cattle prod on Kathy!
> Finally, as already stated, unless we discover how Morgan ended up being abandoned it really doesn't matter if you find her family, they may have rejected her for any number of reasons, and may well do so again. One possibility is that a new male entered the pod and ousted recent offspring in order to produce his own, another is that her mother was killed, these are of course speculation, but in both these cases reintroduction would lead to at very least attacks on her.


if the death of one is Kathy, he claims it comitted suicide. Unless you have evidence that he killed it, your claim is inconclusive.
It is not his work that made him famous, its his change in ideas and his change into stopping dolphins in captivity. Have you even seen, or even heard about the cove? It is worth all the money it made. It was a completely different time, just like the orca in your town. However, this man has changed completely, if only the same could be said about orca business.
But the question still stands, WHY are they not revealing the dna results? the other experts asked for them, they did not reveal them.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> if the death of one is Kathy, he claims it comitted suicide. Unless you have evidence that he killed it, your claim is inconclusive.
> It is not his work that made him famous, its his change in ideas and his change into stopping dolphins in captivity. Have you even seen, or even heard about the cove? It is worth all the money it made. It was a completely different time, just like the orca in your town. However, this man has changed completely, if only the same could be said about orca business.
> But the question still stands, WHY are they not revealing the dna results? the other experts asked for them, they did not reveal them.


Did I say he killed Kathy? One of the sugarloaf dolphins never recovered from his injuries and later died of them. It has since been disproved that Kathy committed suicide, although there's no way of knowing what happened there since no autopsy was performed.
The cove is full of inaccuracies, and is a waste of a perfectly good opportunity to investigate dolphin slaughter because Ric O'Barry had his own agenda. If he was truly concerned about marine animals then why didn't he use the millions he made with his books and film to conservation efforts? 
You keep repeating questions which really have no bearing on the situation at all. I understand your passion, I really do, I used to have the same views back before I started talking to people who know about these animals, have worked with them, in the wild and in captivity, actually learning the scientific facts. Things are really not as simple as you seem to believe


----------



## Zoo-Man

Animalmadrew said:


> I wouldn't like to overreact, so before I react, I would like to know what you mean by then term 'nut-jobs'?





Skarlet said:


> When did being addicted to something make your life worthless? Deadbeats, does that include all people on the dole, or homeless through no fault of their own? Are we to take up eugenics and have people decide our worth by our genes, or our sexuality, or ability to reproduce?
> 
> I wish people would think about this before making such sweeping statements about peoples worth. Addiction can be beaten, homelessness can be helped.


Ok, so a couple of poor examples in there, my mistake.


----------



## yugimon121

I totally forgot about this thread, so I'm going to start again.
I will be pleased when Morgan is atleast attempted to be freed, see how she is in the wild. if things go bad, they can return her back to sea world or whatever cruel place shes at. Then, and ONLY then will i agree captivity for Morgan is the right choice.


> Did I say he killed Kathy? One of the sugarloaf dolphins never recovered from his injuries and later died of them. It has since been disproved that Kathy committed suicide, although there's no way of knowing what happened there since no autopsy was performed.


Do you have any proof of this dolphins death and that it got to do with ric o barry and not natural causes? I'm sorry but when google doesn't mention it, I doubt your words.


> The cove is full of inaccuracies, and is a waste of a perfectly good opportunity to investigate dolphin slaughter because Ric O'Barry had his own agenda. If he was truly concerned about marine animals then why didn't he use the millions he made with his books and film to conservation efforts?


Like the sea world manager does with his money? I'm sure some of the money he makes went to conserving, seeing as he is the founder of his own dolphin conserving project.


> You keep repeating questions which really have no bearing on the situation at all.


The questions i repeat are the ones you do not answer, the ones you nimbly let skip aside and hope i did not catch you not answering it. Honestly, why arent they revealing the DNA results? I said this a bunch of times but you didnt provide an answer.
You also didn't reply to my definition of Sleep, so I take it that you accepted you were wrong and so i will drop it.


> I understand your passion, I really do, I used to have the same views back before I started talking to people who know about these animals, have worked with them, in the wild and in captivity, actually learning the scientific facts. Things are really not as simple as you seem to believe


I'm curious, could you name these experts?
in your time did you meet any person against keeping cetaceans? Or do you mean by experts the workers in sea world when you went there?
Tell me, have you ever met a vegan person that is for sea world? I extremely doubt it. As for vegans against sea world, well I'm one for a start.
I could argue more but I'm going to add the free morgan link to my signature. Have a good sleep, sir.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I totally forgot about this thread, so I'm going to start again.
> I will be pleased when Morgan is atleast attempted to be freed, see how she is in the wild. if things go bad, they can return her back to sea world or whatever cruel place shes at. Then, and ONLY then will i agree captivity for Morgan is the right choice.


Firstly, picking up an Orca from the sea isn't as easy as you seem to think. Secondly, the 'going wrong' part will be her death or at least serious injury. She is not at sea world.



yugimon121 said:


> Do you have any proof of this dolphins death and that it got to do with ric o barry and not natural causes? I'm sorry but when google doesn't mention it, I doubt your words.


Apologies on this, I was using an erroneous source, Buck was dying, but did not actually die. Although he would have if not taken into captivity and treated by properly experienced people. Info here - Marine Legislation
I would argue that nearly killing an animal is just as bad as actually killing one.



yugimon121 said:


> The questions i repeat are the ones you do not answer, the ones you nimbly let skip aside and hope i did not catch you not answering it. Honestly, why arent they revealing the DNA results? I said this a bunch of times but you didnt provide an answer.
> You also didn't reply to my definition of Sleep, so I take it that you accepted you were wrong and so i will drop it.


The sleep of dolphins is such a well documented subject that I seriously thought you would be able to google it yourself. Dolphins have only one half of their brain inactive at any time, during this time the other half of the brain takes over the activity of the animal. The animal is not unconscious or partially unconscious, it is fully awake. Some humans have half their brain removed or disconnected to stop serious illness, are they asleep? I think you'll find not.
The DNA results, as I've said many times are irrelevant, but I'd assume they are not allowing access to medical records of the animal in their care because they never do, how many zoo animals have you seen the vet records for? If I wrote to my local zoo and asked for the vet records of one of their tigers, do you think I'd get it? It's a really quite strange accusation to claim they are deliberately withholding information when it's quite normal practice.



yugimon121 said:


> I'm curious, could you name these experts?
> in your time did you meet any person against keeping cetaceans? Or do you mean by experts the workers in sea world when you went there?
> Tell me, have you ever met a vegan person that is for sea world? I extremely doubt it. As for vegans against sea world, well I'm one for a start.
> I could argue more but I'm going to add the free morgan link to my signature. Have a good sleep, sir.


I really see no need to name people, but none of them work at sea world, neither have I been there in my adult life. I also know many people who are against the captivity issue. I have been and still am involved in animal rights, there are people involved who are both pro and anti captivity. There's even a contingent who are fighting for a cetacean rescue centre in this country in order to save the lives of the hundreds of animals who wash up on our shores and are killed because we have nothing else we can do for them. I'm fully supportive of saving some lives there.
I have heard both sides of the arguments many times over and I made up my mind through reading the scientific evidence available. 
I'm really not sure how your diet has anything to do with whether you believe animals should be kept in captivity or not, but for the record, I'm vegetarian and I know a fair few veggies and vegans who visit zoos and aquariums on a regular basis, some of them even work in them. 
Finally, I am not a sir, and it's a bit offensive to assume peoples genders.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Firstly, picking up an Orca from the sea isn't as easy as you seem to think. Secondly, the 'going wrong' part will be her death or at least serious injury. She is not at sea world.


I am aware with the difficulty it would be, but I will not accept captivity for morgan until it's done.



> The sleep of dolphins is such a well documented subject that I seriously thought you would be able to google it yourself. Dolphins have only one half of their brain inactive at any time, during this time the other half of the brain takes over the activity of the animal. The animal is not unconscious or partially unconscious, it is fully awake. Some humans have half their brain removed or disconnected to stop serious illness, are they asleep? I think you'll find not.


Now you are getting mixed up. they do not CONSTANTLY have 1 half of their brain turned off, they are only in this state approximately 8 hours a day aka. their sleep. During this time they are partially unconscious, comparable to when your almost asleep. 


> The DNA results, as I've said many times are irrelevant, but I'd assume they are not allowing access to medical records of the animal in their care because they never do, how many zoo animals have you seen the vet records for? If I wrote to my local zoo and asked for the vet records of one of their tigers, do you think I'd get it? It's a really quite strange accusation to claim they are deliberately withholding information when it's quite normal practice.


But see the thing is I am not an expert in felines wanting to release the tiger into the wild, now am I?
Experts who are for releasing Morgan asked for it, and so they should give it.
I would want to believe that if i wanted to release that tiger which was originally in the wild that i could have access to the medical records.



> I really see no need to name people, but none of them work at sea world, neither have I been there in my adult life. I also know many people who are against the captivity issue. I have been and still am involved in animal rights, there are people involved who are both pro and anti captivity. There's even a contingent who are fighting for a cetacean rescue centre in this country in order to save the lives of the hundreds of animals who wash up on our shores and are killed because we have nothing else we can do for them. I'm fully supportive of saving some lives there.
> I have heard both sides of the arguments many times over and I made up my mind through reading the scientific evidence available.


As it is your views, i have nothing wrong with stating your opinion.


> I'm really not sure how your diet has anything to do with whether you believe animals should be kept in captivity or not, but for the record, I'm vegetarian and I know a fair few veggies and vegans who visit zoos and aquariums on a regular basis, some of them even work in them.
> Finally, I am not a sir, and it's a bit offensive to assume peoples genders.


Vegan is more than just a diet, its a lifestyle. Sea World is our anti-lifestyle. As said before, I have nothing against animals in captivity if done correctly. I visit zoos and aquariums quite often myself, and have seen nothing wrong.
Apologies, you seemed to be male to me for some reason.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Now you are getting mixed up. they do not CONSTANTLY have 1 half of their brain turned off, they are only in this state approximately 8 hours a day aka. their sleep. During this time they are partially unconscious, comparable to when your almost asleep.


When did I say they were constantly asleep? Again, I point you to humans who have gone through hemisphere separation or removal, they are not asleep, they are awake and capable of all normal body functions. 
Think of yourself when even almost asleep, can you walk about normally? Travel around your environment? React appropriately to dangers? 




yugimon121 said:


> But see the thing is I am not an expert in felines wanting to release the tiger into the wild, now am I?
> Experts who are for releasing Morgan asked for it, and so they should give it.
> I would want to believe that if i wanted to release that tiger which was originally in the wild that i could have access to the medical records.


Vet records are never released, whether you think they should is an opinion, but it's just a matter of course. I'd love the vet records of certain puppy farms to be released who are known to euthanise most of their dogs at 4 or 5 when they no longer breed at the volumes required, but it's not gonna happen, it's private information.



yugimon121 said:


> Vegan is more than just a diet, its a lifestyle. Sea World is our anti-lifestyle. As said before, I have nothing against animals in captivity if done correctly. I visit zoos and aquariums quite often myself, and have seen nothing wrong.


Oxford definition is a person who does not eat animal products - Vegan def
Some who follow a vegan (or vegetarian, pescatarian, or other similar) diet also usually have other opinions on animals, but it's not uniform. Many would not agree with visiting zoos or keeping pets, I have had numerous arguments over keeping reptiles with people who think dogs and cats are fine. 
Personally if an animal is healthy and happy (to the extent we can judge this without developing mind reading abilities) then I really don't mind where they are, I have seen dreadful zoos, and I have been involved in campaigns to improve conditions for certain animals, but I don't believe in blanket bans. I also don't think any animal is better off dead unless they are in serious distress.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> When did I say they were constantly asleep? Again, I point you to humans who have gone through hemisphere separation or removal, they are not asleep, they are awake and capable of all normal body functions.
> Think of yourself when even almost asleep, can you walk about normally? Travel around your environment? React appropriately to dangers?


"Dolphins have only one half of their brain inactive at any time, during this time the other half of the brain takes over the activity of the animal. The animal is not unconscious or partially unconscious, it is fully awake."
You seem to be referring to half of the brain constantly off.
But those who get lobotomies and other brain surgeries arent only temporarily not using it, it is permanently gone. 
No, you can't do any of that, properly anyways. But remembering i said its comparable, we have no way to see how it is for the cetaceans. 




> Vet records are never released, whether you think they should is an opinion, but it's just a matter of course. I'd love the vet records of certain puppy farms to be released who are known to euthanise most of their dogs at 4 or 5 when they no longer breed at the volumes required, but it's not gonna happen, it's private information.
Click to expand...

They don't have to release them, but it is what the anti-captivity are wanting. Until these "experts" can prove that keeping morgan in captivity is best, they will have opposition.



> Oxford definition is a person who does not eat animal products - Vegan def
> Some who follow a vegan (or vegetarian, pescatarian, or other similar) diet also usually have other opinions on animals, but it's not uniform. Many would not agree with visiting zoos or keeping pets, I have had numerous arguments over keeping reptiles with people who think dogs and cats are fine.


That is vegetarian, a vegan is someone who refuses to use any product created by animals. Sea World's Orcas can be seen as being exploited, much like circuses, which is the reason i dont go to circuses, and have infact managed to stop any animal circuses from entering my area for many years.


> Personally if an animal is healthy and happy (to the extent we can judge this without developing mind reading abilities) then I really don't mind where they are, I have seen dreadful zoos, and I have been involved in campaigns to improve conditions for certain animals, but I don't believe in blanket bans. I also don't think any animal is better off dead unless they are in serious distress.


but who's to say that Orcas ARE happy in Sea World? comparing it to their habitat in the wild, its pretty pathetic really.
Now that is an issue that is happening in the human world right now, where people are saying that it is better to die than live in stressful conditions.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> That is vegetarian, a vegan is someone who refuses to use any product created by animals. Sea World's Orcas can be seen as being exploited, much like circuses, which is the reason i dont go to circuses, and have infact managed to stop any animal circuses from entering my area for many years.


Are you trying to argue against the oxford dictionary? 



yugimon121 said:


> but who's to say that Orcas ARE happy in Sea World? comparing it to their habitat in the wild, its pretty pathetic really.
> Now that is an issue that is happening in the human world right now, where people are saying that it is better to die than live in stressful conditions.


Although this is not an exact science, we have many ways to make a decent estimation. Rather than explain it in my own terms, here's an excellent article from scientific america that has lots of lovely info - Are Wild Animals Happier?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Are you trying to argue against the oxford dictionary?


oxford for vegan:
"a person who does not eat or use animal products"
you only said does not eat animal products, but vegans dont use leather, milk, cheese etc.




> Although this is not an exact science, we have many ways to make a decent estimation. Rather than explain it in my own terms, here's an excellent article from scientific america that has lots of lovely info - Are Wild Animals Happier?


Now heres the thing, Orcas are not like most animals. they are one of the most intelligent non-human animals in the world. One day, we may be able to keep 
cetaceans, but in our current time we just aren't ready yet.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> oxford for vegan:
> "a person who does not eat or use animal products"
> you only said does not eat animal products, but vegans dont use leather, milk, cheese etc.


I missed a word, but I linked the page which had the missing word in it. It still has nothing to do with whether you've been to sea world or not.



yugimon121 said:


> Now heres the thing, Orcas are not like most animals. they are one of the most intelligent non-human animals in the world.


Right, I've covered a few times the evidence why this is far from true, do you have any evidence at all for this belief?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> I missed a word, but I linked the page which had the missing word in it. It still has nothing to do with whether you've been to sea world or not.


Why didnt you use the oxford dictionary website?
Oxford Dictionaries Online
It mainly does, vegans don't support the exploitation of animals. Which is exactly what Sea World and other Cetacean aquariums do with Orcas. You may have your opinion, but that doesnt change the fact that the Orcas are being deprived of their natural instincts. I understand that you care for Morgan and we both want the best for her, but As I, Zoo-man and others want is the option of being released not being pulled out. We don't know why Morgan was found alone starving, but it is highly unusual for an orca to be alone, and it is possible that she was split accidentally. We don't know what happened, we may never will, but one thing that is true is that she has healed, she is eating, she is wild born and should be free.
read the facts by Jackie-K on the first post of page 2, it would save me time.
Do you notice why so many ex-sea world workers are against cetaceans in captivity? they've been there, they have primary evidence, meanwhile you've been influenced by secondary evidence by people who probably support many other cruel treatments as well.



> Right, I've covered a few times the evidence why this is far from true, do you have any evidence at all for this belief?


Ok, i have multiple facts
- everything on this site (it speaks of dolphins, but they are too cetaceans) Ultimate Guide: Dolphins
- dolphins again, but still cetaceans:
A cetacean expert, Dr.Michael Hyson once swam with a dolphin named Liberty. He accidentally jammed his elbow into Liberty’s blowhole area. Liberty swam to the front of the human and protested vehemently about its mistreatment. It released a high intensity, low frequency sound that literally vibrated the chest hair of the remorseful Dr. Hyson. Liberty left no doubt in the doctor’s mind that what he did was unacceptable.
-if Ric o' barry is right, cetaceans have the ability to understand suicide.
-Whales and dolphins verbally communicate with each other, they have developed distinct cultures which are passed from one generation to the next, and they lead complex social lives. Dolphins are now thought to have individual names and be “called by name” by other dolphins. Research into the intelligence of these creatures is still ongoing. 
- from wikipedia:
Killer whales imitate others, and seem to deliberately teach skills to their kin. This is most strikingly seen when killer whales deliberately beach themselves to catch seals. Off Península Valdés, adults sometimes pull seals off the shoreline and then release them again near juvenile whales, allowing the younger whales to practice the difficult capture technique on the now-weakened prey. Off the Crozet Islands, mothers push their calves onto the beach, waiting to pull the youngster back if needed
- Cetacean intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Feel free to *attempt* disprove them, so i can re-approve them


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Why didnt you use the oxford dictionary website?
> Oxford Dictionaries Online


You realise you've linked to the same website that my original link right?



yugimon121 said:


> Do you notice why so many ex-sea world workers are against cetaceans in captivity? they've been there, they have primary evidence, meanwhile you've been influenced by secondary evidence by people who probably support many other cruel treatments as well.


I have spoken to people who have worked with cetaceans for many years, I have read research by people who have been studying them for life. Many of the 'ex-trainers' in question worked with them for a few short months and many have no qualifications at all. 




yugimon121 said:


> Ok, i have multiple facts
> - everything on this site (it speaks of dolphins, but they are too cetaceans) Ultimate Guide: Dolphins


The brain theory has been disproved but if you believe in it then you should know that Orca have a brain that is only 0.9% of it's body. That's 0.1% higher than a cow. As a comparison, a human in 2.10%. A full review of the brain theory is contained in this article on cetacean intelligence - Myths on Cetacean Intelligence



yugimon121 said:


> - dolphins again, but still cetaceans:
> A cetacean expert, Dr.Michael Hyson once swam with a dolphin named Liberty. He accidentally jammed his elbow into Liberty’s blowhole area. Liberty swam to the front of the human and protested vehemently about its mistreatment. It released a high intensity, low frequency sound that literally vibrated the chest hair of the remorseful Dr. Hyson. Liberty left no doubt in the doctor’s mind that what he did was unacceptable.


If I step on my dogs or cats tail it will avoid me for hours. Monkeys have even been shown to undertake revenge - Revenge in Japanese Macaques



yugimon121 said:


> -if Ric o' barry is right, cetaceans have the ability to understand suicide.


He isn't - Dolphin Suicide Myth



yugimon121 said:


> -Whales and dolphins verbally communicate with each other, they have developed distinct cultures which are passed from one generation to the next, and they lead complex social lives. Dolphins are now thought to have individual names and be “called by name” by other dolphins. Research into the intelligence of these creatures is still ongoing.


Prairie Dogs have been shown to have incredibly complex language in order to communicate with others. Wolf packs have a complicated social structure which includes various 'jobs' that each member undertakes. Even bees can describe complex journeys to each other through a form of dance. 



yugimon121 said:


> - from wikipedia:
> Killer whales imitate others, and seem to deliberately teach skills to their kin. This is most strikingly seen when killer whales deliberately beach themselves to catch seals. Off Península Valdés, adults sometimes pull seals off the shoreline and then release them again near juvenile whales, allowing the younger whales to practice the difficult capture technique on the now-weakened prey.


Ever had a cat bring you a half dead mouse? It's doing exactly this. Cat's will bring prey to their offspring, or in domestic situations their owners, in order to teach them huntng skills. It will often weaken the mouse first with a few bites in order to start the cat off easy. 
Another nice example is the meerkat, because I've given a lot of links in this post, I'll post a video instead, but can get you a written article if you prefer - Scorpion hunting training


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> You realise you've linked to the same website that my original link right?


Apologies, I didnt click on the link as i was too bothered by you already mis-defining it.





> I have spoken to people who have worked with cetaceans for many years, I have read research by people who have been studying them for life. Many of the 'ex-trainers' in question worked with them for a few short months and many have no qualifications at all.


Many, yes. Not All, some have worked there for many years. there are also many marine biologists and other professionals in cetaceans that disagree with them in captivity. I could always pull up the bad people who agree with captivity, such as the ones who keep dolphins in a theme park, but i choose not to as i am not judging everyone by the actions of a few.



> The brain theory has been disproved but if you believe in it then you should know that Orca have a brain that is only 0.9% of it's body. That's 0.1% higher than a cow. As a comparison, a human in 2.10%. A full review of the brain theory is contained in this article on cetacean intelligence - Myths on Cetacean Intelligence


Do you really believe that cows are almost as intelligent as an orca? this sounds like a really cheesy joke gone wrong.
also if following that, a TREE SHREW is the most intelligent animal in the world. Some people believe in jesus, some people believe tree shrews are smarter than humans, it's their beliefs.
Also following that, porpoises (a cetacean) still are third, behind humans. I'm pretty sure Koko the gorilla who can speak sign and other apes would be next, so this form of intelligence rating is irrelevant.



> If I step on my dogs or cats tail it will avoid me for hours. Monkeys have even been shown to undertake revenge - Revenge in Japanese Macaques


They do that out of fear, what Hyson is trying to say is that the dolphin was scolding him, telling him not to do it again. I never said orcas were smarter than monkeys, oh no. Primates are the smartest animal next to Man itself.


He isn't - Dolphin Suicide Myth
This doesn't disprove ric however, so this is irrelevant. It is obvious that some people will claim this to prevent bad publicity for bad care of their animals, which is why i did not mention the people on the website.



> Prairie Dogs have been shown to have incredibly complex language in order to communicate with others. Wolf packs have a complicated social structure which includes various 'jobs' that each member undertakes. Even bees can describe complex journeys to each other through a form of dance.


Yes both Prairie Dogs and Bees have complex languages, but so do Orcas.
I'm not here to say every animal besides the Orca is dumb, which it seems your making it out to be, I'm stating that Cetaceans are very intelligent, possibly one of the top 5.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Do you really believe that cows are almost as intelligent as an orca? this sounds like a really cheesy joke gone wrong.
> also if following that, a TREE SHREW is the most intelligent animal in the world. Some people believe in jesus, some people believe tree shrews are smarter than humans, it's their beliefs.
> Also following that, porpoises (a cetacean) still are third, behind humans. I'm pretty sure Koko the gorilla who can speak sign and other apes would be next, so this form of intelligence rating is irrelevant.


My point exactly, the brain size theory is debunked, so the article you linked is also debunked.




yugimon121 said:


> This doesn't disprove ric however, so this is irrelevant. It is obvious that some people will claim this to prevent bad publicity for bad care of their animals, which is why i did not mention the people on the website.


The article conclusively proves 'dolphin suicide' is a myth. Not sure what other 'proof' you are looking for when the only suggestion you have for its truth is that some guy said it on a film you saw.




yugimon121 said:


> Yes both Prairie Dogs and Bees have complex languages, but so do Orcas.
> I'm not here to say every animal besides the Orca is dumb, which it seems your making it out to be, I'm stating that Cetaceans are very intelligent, possibly one of the top 5.


But that's the point exactly, you argue that the orca should be killed rather than be in captivity, yet it's totally ok for apes, monkeys, prairie dogs, elephants, tigers, wolves, and every other creature? 
Animal intelligence is not a 'top five' scenario, almost all creatures, including plants, show some level of communication, problem solving, socialisation, to say one is better than the other is entirely subjective.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> My point exactly, the brain size theory is debunked, so the article you linked is also debunked.


No, Brain size (the website) and Brain-to-mass (what your constantly claiming) are completely different theories.




> The article conclusively proves 'dolphin suicide' is a myth. Not sure what other 'proof' you are looking for when the only suggestion you have for its truth is that some guy said it on a film you saw.


Unless you can prove its impossible, Ric O barry stands as much evidence as it is true than you have its not.



> But that's the point exactly, you argue that the orca should be killed rather than be in captivity, yet it's totally ok for apes, monkeys, prairie dogs, elephants, tigers, wolves, and every other creature?
> Animal intelligence is not a 'top five' scenario, almost all creatures, including plants, show some level of communication, problem solving, socialisation, to say one is better than the other is entirely subjective.


I don't agree with that at all, I agree that she should be released. you have no evidence, besides what the "owners" of Morgan said, which was that it would be dangerous releasing her. They not only don't care for the orca, but shes being used in an experiment.
And as i said now a 1000 times, *I have nothing against animals in captivity if it is done right* and before you blab on that orcas are cared for rightly, they most certainly are not and I'm sure everyone who visited this thread would agree with me
While there is no actual proof, it is commonly accepted in both the common and scientific worlds.
Science: Dolphins Declared Second Smartest Animals In World | Global Animal
Dolphins: Second-Smartest Animals? : Discovery News
Zoo News Digest: Dolphins possibly second most intelligent animal after humans


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> No, Brain size (the website) and Brain-to-mass (what your constantly claiming) are completely different theories.


The website you linked states - 

Dolphins have large brains for their bodies -- in fact, a bottlenose dolphin is second only to humans in the ratio of brain size to body size.

Are you now disagreeing with your own link and stating it is brain size itself? Because in that case you are now claiming a Sperm Whale has over 5 times the intelligence of a human, do you truly believe that?






yugimon121 said:


> Unless you can prove its impossible, Ric O barry stands as much evidence as it is true than you have its not.


The words of an unqualified man are as much evidence as a scientific article? It has been disproved that dolphins are conscious breathers, they can not choose to stop breathing until they die any more than me or you can. 

The document a linked has a quote from veterinarian Michael T Walsh who states -

"There is no physical or scientific evidence to verify this supposition. It appears to be based partially on early investigations with anaesthetic agents and popular myths. Current clinical investigations into the use of sedatives and anaesthetics have shown that these individuals are involuntary breathers."

Basically, we can fully anaesthetise these animals and they continue to breathe. So it is completely impossible for one to commit suicide in the way Ric O Barry seems to suggest.




yugimon121 said:


> While there is no actual proof, it is commonly accepted in both the common and scientific worlds.
> Science: Dolphins Declared Second Smartest Animals In World | Global Animal
> Dolphins: Second-Smartest Animals? : Discovery News
> Zoo News Digest: Dolphins possibly second most intelligent animal after humans


The three articles that you link to are referring to a study by Lori Marino who uncovered that dolphins have the second largest brain to body ratio. As I've already shown you, the brain to body ratio is not linked to intelligence, and even if it was, that would put the Orca at approximately the same level as a cow. You yourself have stated that is ridiculous, so you disagree with all three articles that you have linked to.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> The website you linked states -
> 
> Dolphins have large brains for their bodies -- in fact, a bottlenose dolphin is second only to humans in the ratio of brain size to body size.
> 
> Are you now disagreeing with your own link and stating it is brain size itself? Because in that case you are now claiming a Sperm Whale has over 5 times the intelligence of a human, do you truly believe that?


No, I am not. While this does mention the brain-to-mass, it does not state that it is the reason of their intelligence. I do not brain size or brain to mass got to do with intelligence, but the webistes i linked to give reasons why they are intelligent.







> The words of an unqualified man are as much evidence as a scientific article? It has been disproved that dolphins are conscious breathers, they can not choose to stop breathing until they die any more than me or you can.
> 
> The document a linked has a quote from veterinarian Michael T Walsh who states -
> 
> "There is no physical or scientific evidence to verify this supposition. It appears to be based partially on early investigations with anaesthetic agents and popular myths. Current clinical investigations into the use of sedatives and anaesthetics have shown that these individuals are involuntary breathers."
> 
> Basically, we can fully anaesthetise these animals and they continue to breathe. So it is completely impossible for one to commit suicide in the way Ric O Barry seems to suggest.


Wrong, for dolphins can drown, just like humans. Yes Ric says it "died in his arms" but surely this is a figure of speech.
quote from a website:
Encyclopedia.com says "In situations of great stress in captivity they have been known to commit suicide by starvation, battering against walls, or drowning." [1]

A 2008 article on dailymail.co.uk says "Experts say dolphins have been known to take their own lives whilst living in captivity after becoming distressed and confused at their conditions. In several cases the creatures repeatedly slammed their head against sides of a pool - or simply stopped coming up for air." [2]

Begin in captivity is not natural for dolphins which swims in the wild 40 miles each day. They are also social animals that lives in pods that can be as large as 12 dolphins. A dolphin in an oceanarium is like a human under house-arrest not being able to go outside in their natural world.

Dolphins are voluntary breathers. That means they make conscious breaths by opening up their blowhole at the top of their heads. That is why they sleep with only half their brains asleep. One hemisphere of their brain is awake for breathing and other activity such as looking out for predators, while the other hemisphere sleeps. So it is quite possible that they can consciously decide not to breath or to not come up for air.

At least one person that believes adamantly that dolphins can commit suicide is dolphin trainer Richard O'Barry. He watched a dolphin named Kathy commit suicide when she decided not to take the next breath. Kathy was one of the dolphins used in the TV show Flipper. Richard O'Barry says "If life becomes so unbearable, they just don't take the next breath. It's suicide."

When asked in an interview "How do you know it was suicide?", O'Barry answered "Every breath for them is a conscious effort. She looked me right in the eye, took a breath, held it — and she didn’t take another one. She just sank to the bottom of the water. That had a profound effect on me."



> The three articles that you link to are referring to a study by Lori Marino who uncovered that dolphins have the second largest brain to body ratio. As I've already shown you, the brain to body ratio is not linked to intelligence, and even if it was, that would put the Orca at approximately the same level as a cow. You yourself have stated that is ridiculous, so you disagree with all three articles that you have linked to.


Yes they mention the theory, yes i disagree with it. But the entire websites are not based on the theory, they are based on why dolphins are intelligent.


----------



## yugimon121

Also keeping up with the free Morgan campaign
Free Morgan Foundation
Twitter
Orca Morgan: the missed opportunity
Its not over, Its only over when we give up hope. Free Morgan!


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Wrong, for dolphins can drown, just like humans. Yes Ric says it "died in his arms" but surely this is a figure of speech.
> quote from a website:
> Encyclopedia.com says "In situations of great stress in captivity they have been known to commit suicide by starvation, battering against walls, or drowning." [1]


I've skipped a lot of the other parts of your post as they are mainly repetitions, and none from scientific sources. If you read the information on Kathy you will see that Ric O Barry was actually holding the animal out of the water when she died, she did not drown - In O' Barrys own words
As I have already stated, dolphins are not 'voluntary' breathers. We have proven this by putting them under anaesthesia (basically causing both halves of the brain to sleep and the animal to be fully unconscious) at which point the animal could still breath by natural body reflexes just like humans. No animal has ever been proven to commit suicide in any manner thus far.
Besides this, if cetaceans COULD commit suicide, then the very fact that they don't is proof that they are perfectly content in their environment. You either have to accept that they can't or accept that they are fine where they are.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> I've skipped a lot of the other parts of your post as they are mainly repetitions, and none from scientific sources. If you read the information on Kathy you will see that Ric O Barry was actually holding the animal out of the water when she died, she did not drown - In O' Barrys own words
> As I have already stated, dolphins are not 'voluntary' breathers. We have proven this by putting them under anaesthesia (basically causing both halves of the brain to sleep and the animal to be fully unconscious) at which point the animal could still breath by natural body reflexes just like humans. No animal has ever been proven to commit suicide in any manner thus far.
> Besides this, if cetaceans COULD commit suicide, then the very fact that they don't is proof that they are perfectly content in their environment. You either have to accept that they can't or accept that they are fine where they are.


You forgot though, and so did the video, that the dolphin went under the water and drowned.
"She looked me right in the eye, took a breath, held it — and she didn’t take another one. She just sank to the bottom of the water. That had a profound effect on me. "
According from the people i spoke to and the websites i seen, it seems she died under the water.
And according to that way of thinking, people should either all be happy or committing suicide?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> You forgot though, and so did the video, that the dolphin went under the water and drowned.
> "She looked me right in the eye, took a breath, held it — and she didn’t take another one. She just sank to the bottom of the water. That had a profound effect on me. "
> According from the people i spoke to and the websites i seen, it seems she died under the water.
> And according to that way of thinking, people should either all be happy or committing suicide?


What makes you think she drowned when Ric says she held her breath until she died in his arms, and no postmortem took place? 
Here's the original video of the clip I showed you, uncut - Ric O Barry It's at 1.50. Can you hear those extra words you just added? 
Besides, drowning involves water entering the lungs, if she wasn't taking breaths then this is impossible.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> What makes you think she drowned when Ric says she held her breath until she died in his arms, and no postmortem took place?
> Here's the original video of the clip I showed you, uncut - Ric O Barry It's at 1.50. Can you hear those extra words you just added?
> Besides, drowning involves water entering the lungs, if she wasn't taking breaths then this is impossible.


The Cove
Yes he does mention that they are conscious breathers, but at the time this was scientific fact. He said it took a breath, and didn't take another one.
Just swam to the bottom of the water.
Apologies, Drowning may not have been the best of words, though it is possible as what if she inhaled under the water?


Returning to our original subject, Morgan should be free.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> The Cove
> Yes he does mention that they are conscious breathers, but at the time this was scientific fact. He said it took a breath, and didn't take another one.
> Just swam to the bottom of the water.
> Apologies, Drowning may not have been the best of words, though it is possible as what if she inhaled under the water?
> 
> 
> Returning to our original subject, Morgan should be free.


He says in this link that she sank, after not breathing, that would be after she was dead. He also says on that post that she died of holding her breath. Just accept that the 'suicide' never happened. 
So basically you can't prove cetaceans are unhappy in captivity, you can't prove they are badly treated, so the only reason you want a young animal who shouldn't even be away from her mother yet to be chucked back in the sea is because you want her dead. Nice one.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> He says in this link that she sank, after not breathing, that would be after she was dead. He also says on that post that she died of holding her breath. Just accept that the 'suicide' never happened.
> So basically you can't prove cetaceans are unhappy in captivity, you can't prove they are badly treated, so the only reason you want a young animal who shouldn't even be away from her mother yet to be chucked back in the sea is because you want her dead. Nice one.



You made alot of harsh conclusions there.
"She just sank to the bottom of the water" your concluding she died, prove it or its not true.
No, basically you decided not to reply to my reasons a few posts back by calling them "repetition"
I'm sorry, have you invented a machine that can read animal emotions and read the orcas feelings and saw they were all happy? no? then you have no proof they are happy. We do, however, know of their behavior in the wild and captivity, and see the instincts they are deprived of for human entertainment. I have even proof that Morgan is treated badly; shes a part of an experiment with captive breds. they attacked her, they are going to try again and again. next time they might not be so lucky.
Also "chucked" back into the sea? Thats quite an aggressive word, don't you think?
" so the only reason you want a young animal who shouldn't even be away from her mother" - So its ok to keep her locked up, with NO chance to EVER, EVER find her mother? 

"Because I want her dead"
I can clearly see your growing tired of this argument, and if you decided to not reply and just leave me be i would be fine, But never say something like that again. Why would i debate if i just want her dead? does zoo-man want her dead too? and Jackie-K? and everyone who liked zoo-mans first post?
Why dont you start a petition saying "Keep Morgan locked up" and see how many signatures you get? I'd like to see you get 29,000.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> You made alot of harsh conclusions there.
> "She just sank to the bottom of the water" your concluding she died, prove it or its not true.


I'm reading the article you posted and watching the many accounts of ric giving his account. You are now trying to claim she drowned, which is not written anywhere. So basically you're making things up.



yugimon121 said:


> No, basically you decided not to reply to my reasons a few posts back by calling them "repetition"
> I'm sorry, have you invented a machine that can read animal emotions and read the orcas feelings and saw they were all happy? no? then you have no proof they are happy. We do, however, know of their behavior in the wild and captivity, and see the instincts they are deprived of for human entertainment. I have even proof that Morgan is treated badly; shes a part of an experiment with captive breds. they attacked her, they are going to try again and again. next time they might not be so lucky.


What instincts are they deprived of now? Morgan is part of a study which involves people looking at her, if that's cruelty then I'd suggest you start trying to ban eyes. 
Did you know that the person undertaking the research on her language was also the person who originally tried to locate her pod based on vocal patterns? Is that cruelty too?
There was a video taken during her first introductions to the group members where they were rambunctious, this is common with all animal introductions. It would be ten times worse on introduction to a large wild pod who can not be controlled by keepers. If it upset you to see her introduced in a highly controlled manner to a few captive animals then it would be very difficult to see a wild introduction, this is where many animals are killed. 
If you read the latest reports from those observing her she has now integrated well with the group and is learning their language leading to some impressive two way conversations.



yugimon121 said:


> Also "chucked" back into the sea? Thats quite an aggressive word, don't you think?
> " so the only reason you want a young animal who shouldn't even be away from her mother" - So its ok to keep her locked up, with NO chance to EVER, EVER find her mother?


How small do you think the sea is? Even if she was put back in the sea, it's highly unlikely she'd find her mother. 



yugimon121 said:


> "Because I want her dead"
> I can clearly see your growing tired of this argument, and if you decided to not reply and just leave me be i would be fine, But never say something like that again. Why would i debate if i just want her dead? does zoo-man want her dead too? and Jackie-K? and everyone who liked zoo-mans first post?
> Why dont you start a petition saying "Keep Morgan locked up" and see how many signatures you get? I'd like to see you get 29,000.


I am getting rather tired of this as you refuse to do any research, refuse to look at any science, then claim to know things that are entirely made up. But I will continue to link this thread to solid facts about animals as I'd hate for anyone to go away believing some of the strange ideas that have come up in this thread. An anti captivity thread which currently sits on a board set up about the keeping and care of exotic mammals.
While there are many people who watched a lot of free willy movies and think that the wild is a lovely fluffy place where everything is fine and dandy, it really doesn't change the facts that there is money being wasted by people in the name of this court case, when the evidence has been brought to various courts all over the place and all the courts have said that SOS, Hardewijk, and Loro Parque are doing the very best for this animal.
Why not spend your money stopping the whaling in japan? Actual endangered animals. Or starting a few more rescue centres around the world who can care for these animals who currently die by their thousands due to lack of care. Because without these rescue centres, Morgan would be dead now. So yes, by campaigning against these places, by depleting their funds, you are wishing her and every animal rescued by these centres, to an early death.


----------



## yugimon121

> I'm reading the article you posted and watching the many accounts of ric giving his account. You are now trying to claim she drowned, which is not written anywhere. So basically you're making things up.


I never claimed she did, I claimed she committed suicide and drowning is a possible way.



> What instincts are they deprived of now? Morgan is part of a study which involves people looking at her, if that's cruelty then I'd suggest you start trying to ban eyes.
> Did you know that the person undertaking the research on her language was also the person who originally tried to locate her pod based on vocal patterns? Is that cruelty too?
> There was a video taken during her first introductions to the group members where they were rambunctious, this is common with all animal introductions. It would be ten times worse on introduction to a large wild pod who can not be controlled by keepers. If it upset you to see her introduced in a highly controlled manner to a few captive animals then it would be very difficult to see a wild introduction, this is where many animals are killed.
> If you read the latest reports from those observing her she has now integrated well with the group and is learning their language leading to some impressive two way conversations.


What instinct does she have left?
she is forced to be used as a source of entertainment for humans
she has to repeatably swim in the same place, where in the wild orcas have the entire sea as their habitat.
she is being treated as property, 10,000,000 in property to be exact. 
"November 21 2011 Judges decision...due to loopholes in 2 Articles (12 and 16 I believe) in the EC Directives Morgan will go to Loro Parque for use in research. Research is to study how a wild caught orca communicates with captive bred/born orca"
theres your experiment.



> How small do you think the sea is? Even if she was put back in the sea, it's highly unlikely she'd find her mother.


So either way she wont find her mother...then why even bring the mother up?!
"not sure exactly when but within approx 6 weeks Morgans extended family are located"
"Sometime between then and Dec 2010 orca experts denied access to Morgan for further vocal recording and collecting DNA samples by DH which they needed to find her relatives"
"November 7 2011 Orca Coalition go back to court, important to note that 4 of the 7 experts brought in by DH have now switched sides and agree, due to finding Morgans extended family that she is now a GOOD candidtate for rehab and release."




> I am getting rather tired of this as you refuse to do any research, refuse to look at any science, then claim to know things that are entirely made up. But I will continue to link this thread to solid facts about animals as I'd hate for anyone to go away believing some of the strange ideas that have come up in this thread. An anti captivity thread which currently sits on a board set up about the keeping and care of exotic mammals.
> While there are many people who watched a lot of free willy movies and think that the wild is a lovely fluffy place where everything is fine and dandy, it really doesn't change the facts that there is money being wasted by people in the name of this court case, when the evidence has been brought to various courts all over the place and all the courts have said that SOS, Hardewijk, and Loro Parque are doing the very best for this animal.
> Why not spend your money stopping the whaling in japan? Actual endangered animals. Or starting a few more rescue centres around the world who can care for these animals who currently die by their thousands due to lack of care. Because without these rescue centres, Morgan would be dead now. So yes, by campaigning against these places, by depleting their funds, you are wishing her and every animal rescued by these centres, to an early death.


I do research, probably more than you, seeing as your pro-captivity.
I do donate to stopping dolphin slaughter, I am in many animal right groups. I'm an ALF member, so clearly I care quite alot about animals.
you know the biggest cetacean conservation society, The Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society are FOR freeing morgan?
WDCS is disheartened to learn that a court in Amsterdam has decided that Morgan should be transferred from the Netherlands to remain in captivity at the Loro Parque zoo in the Canary Islands. We now fear for Morgan’s health and welfare as she will be introduced into a new captive environment, to orcas who are strangers to her and to the circus-style shows at Loro Parque. In captivity, orcas suffer a significantly reduced survival rate, low breeding success and stress, which can lead to aggression between themselves and towards trainers, illness and even death.
So even the conservation projects that you are all for disagree with you.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I never claimed she did, I claimed she committed suicide and drowning is a possible way.


Yet Ric O Barry, the person who was there, claims he held the animal out of the water while she died. He says the words 'died in my arms'. How can that be any more clear for you?




yugimon121 said:


> What instinct does she have left?
> she is forced to be used as a source of entertainment for humans
> she has to repeatably swim in the same place, where in the wild orcas have the entire sea as their habitat.
> she is being treated as property, 10,000,000 in property to be exact.
> "November 21 2011 Judges decision...due to loopholes in 2 Articles (12 and 16 I believe) in the EC Directives Morgan will go to Loro Parque for use in research. Research is to study how a wild caught orca communicates with captive bred/born orca"
> theres your experiment.


All the instincts? She eats, she socialises, she communicates, what more do you want?
There is no way you can force a multi tonne animal to do anything. She is taught using a game system which is known to be vital to keeping the brain active and the animal healthy. Not sure how you can disagree with that.
The 'experiment' you refer to is a few people sitting around looking at her and making some recordings, you want to try again explaining how that is cruel? Because in an earlier post it was revealed that a source used by the free morgan group is Dr Visser, who conducts her research by jumping in the water with Orca and interacting with them. Which of the two is more invasive?




yugimon121 said:


> So either way she wont find her mother...then why even bring the mother up?!


If you read the sentence I typed, i said she was too young to leave her mother, basically she is a juvenile animal who would not normally survive in the wild without parental care.



yugimon121 said:


> "not sure exactly when but within approx 6 weeks Morgans extended family are located"
> "Sometime between then and Dec 2010 orca experts denied access to Morgan for further vocal recording and collecting DNA samples by DH which they needed to find her relatives"
> "November 7 2011 Orca Coalition go back to court, important to note that 4 of the 7 experts brought in by DH have now switched sides and agree, due to finding Morgans extended family that she is now a GOOD candidtate for rehab and release."


Why are you copying and pasting past posts? And why do you not notice that given all the evidence the court ruled that it was not in the animals best interest to be released?





yugimon121 said:


> In captivity, orcas suffer a significantly reduced survival rate, low breeding success and stress, which can lead to aggression between themselves and towards trainers, illness and even death.
> So even the conservation projects that you are all for disagree with you.


Proof on any of these claims that you have copied and pasted from an animal liberation site? You should be aware that these animal liberation groups would be very much against you keeping animals.

On survival rates - A survival guide to survival rates
We've already covered stress measurement and the lack of stress hormones. I've also stated that the reason animals are more aggressive to trainers in captivity is because there are no trainers in the wild, it's pretty simple maths. If you choose to get in the water with a large predator then you know what to expect. As for animals getting ill in captivity, what do they think happens in the wild? Animals get ill, animals die, it happens everywhere, only in captivity we treat their illnesses and much of the time they don't die, the magic of veterinary science!


----------



## yugimon121

> Yet Ric O Barry, the person who was there, claims he held the animal out of the water while she died. He says the words 'died in my arms'. How can that be any more clear for you?


Figure of speech? 




> All the instincts? She eats, she socialises, she communicates, what more do you want?


Freedom? the right to not be exploited?


> There is no way you can force a multi tonne animal to do anything. She is taught using a game system which is known to be vital to keeping the brain active and the animal healthy. Not sure how you can disagree with that.


Vital? That's not required in the wild, now is it? its vital for ones in the captivity because they cannot provide for them properly.


> The 'experiment' you refer to is a few people sitting around looking at her and making some recordings, you want to try again explaining how that is cruel? Because in an earlier post it was revealed that a source used by the free morgan group is Dr Visser, who conducts her research by jumping in the water with Orca and interacting with them. Which of the two is more invasive?


Its people watching her with other orcas, where she WAS attacked. as you said, "force a multi tonne animal to do anything" so if morgan was fatally attacked, she would die.





> If you read the sentence I typed, i said she was too young to leave her mother, basically she is a juvenile animal who would not normally survive in the wild without parental care.


I'm pretty sure if she was still nursing the anti-captivity experts would realize this




> Why are you copying and pasting past posts? And why do you not notice that given all the evidence the court ruled that it was not in the animals best interest to be released?


Because apparently you didn't read them the first time. 
Because the court now knows about orcas? because the court is never wrong? There isnt any laws against it, and so thats how they got to keep her.




> Proof on any of these claims that you have copied and pasted from an animal liberation site? You should be aware that these animal liberation groups would be very much against you keeping animals.


if you want the WDCS website, here you go WDCS International - Whale and Dolphin News - Dutch Court Sentences Wild Orca To Life In A Small Pool
For ALF
Pet FAQs
"As a matter of fact, the AR supporter may well provide homes for more unwanted companion animals than does the average person!"



> On survival rates - A survival guide to survival rates
> We've already covered stress measurement and the lack of stress hormones. I've also stated that the reason animals are more aggressive to trainers in captivity is because there are no trainers in the wild, it's pretty simple maths. If you choose to get in the water with a large predator then you know what to expect. As for animals getting ill in captivity, what do they think happens in the wild? Animals get ill, animals die, it happens everywhere, only in captivity we treat their illnesses and much of the time they don't die, the magic of veterinary science!


Are you arguing against the WDCS?!


----------



## Zoo-Man

Devi said:


> He says in this link that she sank, after not breathing, that would be after she was dead. He also says on that post that she died of holding her breath. Just accept that the 'suicide' never happened.
> So basically you can't prove cetaceans are unhappy in captivity, you can't prove they are badly treated, *so the only reason you want a young animal who shouldn't even be away from her mother yet to be chucked back in the sea is because you want her dead. Nice one*.


Ridiculously harsh & rather childish!



Devi said:


> There was a video taken during her first introductions to the group members where they were rambunctious, this is common with all animal introductions. It would be ten times worse on introduction to a large wild pod who can not be *controlled by keepers How the hell do you control an orca???*. If it upset you to see her introduced in a highly controlled manner to a few captive animals then it would be very difficult to see a *wild introduction, this is where many animals are killed. Not a high incidence of this recorded.*
> If you read the latest reports from those observing her she has now integrated well with the group and is learning their language leading to some impressive two way conversations.
> 
> How small do you think the sea is? Even if she was put back in the sea, it's highly unlikely she'd find her mother.
> 
> I am getting rather tired of this as you refuse to do any research, refuse to look at any science, then claim to know things that are entirely made up. But I will continue to link this thread to solid facts about animals as I'd hate for anyone to go away believing some of the strange ideas that have come up in this thread. An anti captivity thread which currently sits on a board set up about the keeping and care of exotic mammals.
> While there are many people who watched a lot of free willy movies and think that the wild is a lovely fluffy place where everything is fine and dandy, it really doesn't change the facts that *there is money being wasted by people in the name of this court case*, *but there will be plenty of money made by the public going to watch this wild-born Orca perform tricks! * when the evidence has been brought to various courts all over the place and all the courts have said that SOS, Hardewijk, and Loro Parque are doing the very best for this animal.
> *Why not spend your money stopping the whaling in japan? Actual endangered animals*. *So non-threatened species don't deserve any protection??? * Or starting a few more rescue centres around the world who can care for these animals who currently die by their thousands due to lack of care. Because without these rescue centres, Morgan would be dead now. So yes, by campaigning against these places, by depleting their funds, you are wishing her and every animal rescued by these centres, to an early death.


My replies in red above!

Devi, although we are disagreeing with one another on this thread, we have been on the same side in other debates, such as the dog health threads of late. I am very suprised that you actually think that Orcas in captivity is ok. I thought you were involved in helping a dog rescue by fostering, etc. I assumed that someone who did things like that would be against the imprisonment of large highly intelligent animals.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Figure of speech?


Um, no.




yugimon121 said:


> Freedom? the right to not be exploited?
> 
> Vital? That's not required in the wild, now is it? its vital for ones in the captivity because they cannot provide for them properly.
> 
> Its people watching her with other orcas, where she WAS attacked. as you said, "force a multi tonne animal to do anything" so if morgan was fatally attacked, she would die.


Stimulation is required for any animal wherever they are. In the wild it's hunting, in captivity it takes other forms. Similarly in a border collie, it can be occupied by a job, like herding, or training at home to do a form of doggy dancing. Really makes no difference to the animal, it just needs its brain to work or it won't be a happy animal.
Fatally attacked means she's killed, so yes she would be dead, but the point is in captive introductions we can distract animals, we can separate them through the multiple pools if it gets too rough, in the wild, an attack is much more likely to kill.





yugimon121 said:


> I'm pretty sure if she was still nursing the anti-captivity experts would realize this


Human infants often wean at 6 months or so, does this mean they are now independant beings? Of course not. The mother will continue defending it's offspring, teaching the key skills needed to survive in the wild, and things like where you find food at what time of year, orca often have a number of hunting grounds due to the calender and this is not something an animal is born knowing. The females will usually stay with their mother for life, males will often leave around 15 or so, so the theory dictates that a 15 year old female who has been fully trained by a parent should be able to survive on her own at about this age. Morgan is 3.




yugimon121 said:


> Because the court now knows about orcas? because the court is never wrong? There isnt any laws against it, and so thats how they got to keep her.


That is the point of courts. They should know nothing about the situation beforehand and hold no opinions either way. It is then up to the two parties to present their evidence in full and the court as an independent body decides who has the best case. 



yugimon121 said:


> if you want the WDCS website, here you go WDCS International - Whale and Dolphin News - Dutch Court Sentences Wild Orca To Life In A Small Pool
> For ALF
> Pet FAQs
> "As a matter of fact, the AR supporter may well provide homes for more unwanted companion animals than does the average person!"


I am aware of google, not quite sure why you are putting links here? And as for unwanted companion animals, pretty sure buying young animals from a breeder doesn't count as this.
The page you linked actually states -
A cage in someone's house is an unnatural environment for an exotic bird, fish, or mammal.
and
Don't get an animal that will be kept unnecessarily confined--birds, fish, etc. 




yugimon121 said:


> Are you arguing against the WDCS?!


So I'm guessing your answer is no, you have no proof whatsoever?


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Devi, although we are disagreeing with one another on this thread, we have been on the same side in other debates, such as the dog health threads of late. I am very suprised that you actually think that Orcas in captivity is ok. I thought you were involved in helping a dog rescue by fostering, etc. I assumed that someone who did things like that would be against the imprisonment of large highly intelligent animals.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing as a personal thing, you'll notice I have ignored various personal attacks made on me in this thread. I'm sure I would agree or disagree with everyone on this forum over different things.
The point of rescue is that we remove an animal who is not thriving in it's environment and we move it to a place where it does well. This is exactly what has happened with Morgan. I have also worked in wildlife rescue where often animals can't return to the wild, it's never an easy decision, but it is made for the benefit of the animal.
As I've already said to Yugimon, Orca are not the most intelligent animals we currently have in captivity, and in fact intelligence is a rather abstract concept when we refer to animals. We often use it to talk about animals who display human like traits, Yugimon mentioned Koko the gorilla who uses sign language, but all animals must be 'intelligent' in order to best exploit the environment they are in.
Basically, it would be hypocritical of me to believe for example dolphins belonged in captivity but orca didn't, or that dolphins didn't but sealions did. Sealions are often the forgotten sea mammals in these debates, yet they can learn substantially more tricks than a dolphin, but that's another topic entirely!
Every animal is needed in captivity for conservation reasons if nothing else, and personally I'd much rather those were animals who could not survive in the wild than animals who were quite happy where they were.


----------



## yugimon121

> Um, no.


Personal opinion. If i ever meet Ric I'll ask him.




> Stimulation is required for any animal wherever they are. In the wild it's hunting, in captivity it takes other forms. Similarly in a border collie, it can be occupied by a job, like herding, or training at home to do a form of doggy dancing. Really makes no difference to the animal, it just needs its brain to work or it won't be a happy animal.
> Fatally attacked means she's killed, so yes she would be dead, but the point is in captive introductions we can distract animals, we can separate them through the multiple pools if it gets too rough, in the wild, an attack is much more likely to kill.


you said yourself "you can't get multi-tonne animals to do something they don't want to."





> Human infants often wean at 6 months or so, does this mean they are now independant beings? Of course not. The mother will continue defending it's offspring, teaching the key skills needed to survive in the wild, and things like where you find food at what time of year, orca often have a number of hunting grounds due to the calender and this is not something an animal is born knowing. The females will usually stay with their mother for life, males will often leave around 15 or so, so the theory dictates that a 15 year old female who has been fully trained by a parent should be able to survive on her own at about this age. Morgan is 3.


The experts know what they are saying more than you do, they wouldn't release an animal that wouldn't survive




> That is the point of courts. They should know nothing about the situation beforehand and hold no opinions either way. It is then up to the two parties to present their evidence in full and the court as an independent body decides who has the best case.


As said before, shes still in captivity because there is no law against it, thus the case was dismissed.




> I am aware of google, not quite sure why you are putting links here? And as for unwanted companion animals, pretty sure buying young animals from a breeder doesn't count as this.


"Proof on any of these claims that you have copied and pasted from an animal liberation site?" 
I rescued my 4 cats, and I actually got my crested geckos for resuce on Herp Ireland.
And everyone has a certain pet, if someone wants a crestie instead of a leo, so be it. 
If it can only be provided by a breeder, as long as its captive bred its perfectly fine.


> The page you linked actually states -
> A cage in someone's house is an unnatural environment for an exotic bird, fish, or mammal.


It is, for the most part. Birds deserve an aviary, fish deserve a large aquarium and exotic mammals deserve whatever they need. Yes, i keep my aph in a cage, but its 9 square feet, with her also out free roaming most nights. 


> Don't get an animal that will be kept unnecessarily confined--birds, fish, etc.


I dont own birds, and criticize those who keep them in the "bird cages" they sell in pet shops. Birds need an aviary at the least. Also hate the fish bowls, which are are just not right. remember they said unnecessarily, which means confined for reasons besides the animals. I give all my animals large enclosures and their needs go before mine. If i cant care for them, I rehome them to someone who can.



> So I'm guessing your answer is no, you have no proof whatsoever?


"We've already covered stress measurement and the lack of stress hormones. I've also stated that the reason animals are more aggressive to trainers in captivity is because there are no trainers in the wild, it's pretty simple maths. If you choose to get in the water with a large predator then you know what to expect. As for animals getting ill in captivity, what do they think happens in the wild? Animals get ill, animals die, it happens everywhere, only in captivity we treat their illnesses and much of the time they don't die, the magic of veterinary science!"
You basically argued against all the points the WDCS made, so you i do have proof, and your are arguing against them.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> you said yourself "you can't get multi-tonne animals to do something they don't want to."


Where did I say they could? I said -

in captive introductions we can distract animals, we can separate them through the multiple pools if it gets too rough, in the wild, an attack is much more likely to kill.

These are methods we use to keep animals safe in captive introductions, now can you name any methods that have been succesfully used in wild introductions?




yugimon121 said:


> The experts know what they are saying more than you do, they wouldn't release an animal that wouldn't survive


Exactly. This is what the experts who have assesed Morgan in person have said.




yugimon121 said:


> "Proof on any of these claims that you have copied and pasted from an animal liberation site?"
> I rescued my 4 cats, and I actually got my crested geckos for resuce on Herp Ireland.
> And everyone has a certain pet, if someone wants a crestie instead of a leo, so be it.
> If it can only be provided by a breeder, as long as its captive bred its perfectly fine.
> 
> It is, for the most part. Birds deserve an aviary, fish deserve a large aquarium and exotic mammals deserve whatever they need. Yes, i keep my aph in a cage, but its 9 square feet, with her also out free roaming most nights.
> 
> 
> I dont own birds, and criticize those who keep them in the "bird cages" they sell in pet shops. Birds need an aviary at the least. Also hate the fish bowls, which are are just not right. remember they said unnecessarily, which means confined for reasons besides the animals. I give all my animals large enclosures and their needs go before mine. If i cant care for them, I rehome them to someone who can.


You don't have to justify yourself to me, I believe that an animal can be kept well in a captive environment. You do however have issues with the website that you support.




yugimon121 said:


> "We've already covered stress measurement and the lack of stress hormones. I've also stated that the reason animals are more aggressive to trainers in captivity is because there are no trainers in the wild, it's pretty simple maths. If you choose to get in the water with a large predator then you know what to expect. As for animals getting ill in captivity, what do they think happens in the wild? Animals get ill, animals die, it happens everywhere, only in captivity we treat their illnesses and much of the time they don't die, the magic of veterinary science!"
> You basically argued against all the points the WDCS made, so you i do have proof, and your are arguing against them.


Your proof is that some website said so? Right, lets talk about proof. In science we look at statistics, we perform studies and research in order to prove or disprove statements. I have provided scientific papers that prove my statements. Now, try again, can you prove any of these statements? Or not?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Where did I say they could? I said -
> 
> in captive introductions we can distract animals, we can separate them through the multiple pools if it gets too rough, in the wild, an attack is much more likely to kill.[/COLOR



"There is no way you can force a multi tonne animal to do anything."



> These are methods we use to keep animals safe in captive introductions, now can you name any methods that have been succesfully used in wild introductions?


I admit I dont know of any. But orcas have been released many times before into their pods, and so can morgan be released into her pod.



> Exactly. This is what the experts who have assesed Morgan in person have said.


I was referring to the experts who are against keeping her in captivity, because I have yet to read from her captors she's being kept because of her youth, nor have they mentioned that any time before.



> You don't have to justify yourself to me, I believe that an animal can be kept well in a captive environment. You do however have issues with the website that you support.


I do not have issues, I am just proving that i agree with the website.



> Your proof is that some website said so? Right, lets talk about proof. In science we look at statistics, we perform studies and research in order to prove or disprove statements. I have provided scientific papers that prove my statements. Now, try again, can you prove any of these statements? Or not?


Some website? as said before they are The Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society. They are the biggest organisation in helping cetaceans and conserving them. They have many experts in the science fields.
heres some proof on stress in keiko and tilikum
http://theorcaproject.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/keto-tilikum-express-stress-of-orca-captivity.pdf


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> "There is no way you can force a multi tonne animal to do anything."


Now you're copying and pasting me? What?




yugimon121 said:


> I admit I dont know of any. But orcas have been released many times before into their pods, and so can morgan be released into her pod.


Ignoring the fact that we still don't know what pod she came from. The release of orca is an interesting topic. There's a bunch of succesful releases of dolphins, SOS Dolfijn have done plenty, porpoises too, but there are very few releases of Orca. Have a read here - Cetacean releases
You need to scroll down a bit to the Orca and it only goes up to 1995, but it seems that most releases that have been successfully followed up are when entire pods have been captured for a short while and released. 
Hopefully the next poorly animal that shows up is an adult with no long term health issues and we can genuinely see if an animal can be rehabilitated and released. 




yugimon121 said:


> Some website? as said before they are The Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society. They are the biggest organisation in helping cetaceans and conserving them. They have many experts in the science fields.
> heres some proof on stress in keiko and tilikum
> http://theorcaproject.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/keto-tilikum-express-stress-of-orca-captivity.pdf


Right, the article assesses the following as 'stress'

- Aggression towards humans - this is totally normal behaviour, they have not been known by the name 'killer whale' because it's cute. They are large dangerous predators who often kill actual whales significantly larger than their own body. Nobody would jump into a tiger enclosure, or a bear enclosure, it's ridiculous to think you can hang out with an orca in safety.

- Illnesses - Animals in captivity get ill, animals in the wild get ill, the difference is that in captivity they have vet care, in the wild they die.

- High infant mortality - Cetaceans have a high infant mortality in the wild. Olesiuk et al (1990) in a study of a population found the rate at 43%, this is higher than the captive rate, so apparently we're doing quite a good job!

What we'd expect to see in animals with high stress is loss of condition, and in the case of blood tests high levels of stress hormones. The animals we see in captivity are not thin, they do not stop eating, they communicate with each other, and they interact in a way typical of their species. I do agree with one point in it though, these animals do not do well in solitary confinement. This is why it was important for Morgan to leave Hardewijk.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Now you're copying and pasting me? What?


your not good with backtracking through posts, are you? 
you: we can separate them through the multiple pools if it gets too rough
me: you said yourself "you can't get multi-tonne animals to do something they don't want to."
you: Where did I say they could?
Because you forgot your own post, i quoted where what you said.
does this clear things up? next time, please try do it on your own.




> Ignoring the fact that we still don't know what pod she came from. The release of orca is an interesting topic. There's a bunch of succesful releases of dolphins, SOS Dolfijn have done plenty, porpoises too, but there are very few releases of Orca. Have a read here - Cetacean releases
> You need to scroll down a bit to the Orca and it only goes up to 1995, but it seems that most releases that have been successfully followed up are when entire pods have been captured for a short while and released.
> Hopefully the next poorly animal that shows up is an adult with no long term health issues and we can genuinely see if an animal can be rehabilitated and released.


Experts believe they have, it has been mentioned countless times that it is very likely her extended family have been found, but we are denied DNA results to find out!
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/exotic-mammals/803386-help-morgan-orca-6.html#post9693930
Read that post, it has all the facts. her extended family has been found.






> - Aggression towards humans - this is totally normal behaviour, they have not been known by the name 'killer whale' because it's cute. They are large dangerous predators who often kill actual whales significantly larger than their own body. Nobody would jump into a tiger enclosure, or a bear enclosure, it's ridiculous to think you can hang out with an orca in safety.


They never killed a human in history in the wild, many in captivity.
yes not many are killed because who goes into the water with an orca, but animals such as lions have killed people before in the wild.



> High infant mortality - Cetaceans have a high infant mortality in the wild. Olesiuk et al (1990) in a study of a population found the rate at 43%, this is higher than the captive rate, so apparently we're doing quite a good job!


24 orcas died in sea world, not counting the rest of the careless aquariums.
I am looking for the mortality rates in captivity, which you didnt provide. care to give me a link?



> What we'd expect to see in animals with high stress is loss of condition, and in the case of blood tests high levels of stress hormones. The animals we see in captivity are not thin, they do not stop eating, they communicate with each other, and they interact in a way typical of their species. I do agree with one point in it though, these animals do not do well in solitary confinement. This is why it was important for Morgan to leave Hardewijk.


leave Hardewijk while they are making big bucks off of her? not so educated as i thought.
Same can be said for monkeys kept alone in a parrot cage, but does that seem ok to you too?


----------



## yugimon121

and heres a good read as well.
http://www.hsi.org/assets/pdfs/orca_white_paper.pdf


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> your not good with backtracking through posts, are you?
> you: we can separate them through the multiple pools if it gets too rough
> me: you said yourself "you can't get multi-tonne animals to do something they don't want to."
> you: Where did I say they could?
> Because you forgot your own post, i quoted where what you said.
> does this clear things up? next time, please try do it on your own.


With such an impressive attitude you might want to look better. My question was - when have I said that you *can* control an Orca? Your answer was showing me a quote where I said they *can't*. Care to try again?




yugimon121 said:


> Experts believe they have, it has been mentioned countless times that it is very likely her extended family have been found, but we are denied DNA results to find out!
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/exotic-mammals/803386-help-morgan-orca-6.html#post9693930
> Read that post, it has all the facts. her extended family has been found.


Jackies post contains the words - 
6. Not sure exactly when but within approx 6 weeks Morgans extended family are located
What actually happened if you look at the facts here - Orca Morgan's family may have been found
Basically they might have found some animals that may be related, in some distant way. Even for a healthy adult, this info just isn't good enough. 




yugimon121 said:


> They never killed a human in history in the wild, many in captivity.
> yes not many are killed because who goes into the water with an orca, but animals such as lions have killed people before in the wild.


Big thing here, humans live on the land, lions live on the land, they overlap constantly, Orca live in the open ocean. Despite this there have been a few attacks, which is fairly surprising considering how little we share their space.




yugimon121 said:


> 24 orcas died in sea world, not counting the rest of the careless aquariums.
> I am looking for the mortality rates in captivity, which you didnt provide. care to give me a link?


Apologies, I assumed you'd know that one. The only data to hand currently is from 1968 to 1999 produced by your friends the WDCS, who put the survival rate at 39%, considering we are looking at the very first births in captivity it's a bit skewed.
I've had a quick glance over the wiki pages and we've had no infant deaths for quite a while now, over 10 years it seems.




yugimon121 said:


> leave Hardewijk while they are making big bucks off of her? not so educated as i thought.
> Same can be said for monkeys kept alone in a parrot cage, but does that seem ok to you too?


She left Hardewijk in december. Try reading the post of 'facts' you linked above. As for monkeys in a parrot cage, have you never see one?? Fur loss, massive muscle wastage, stereotypical behaviour, most of them can barely climb. Whereas captive orca in good enclosures can reach tremendous speeds and dive out of the water, that is a strong animal.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> With such an impressive attitude you might want to look better. My question was - when have I said that you *can* control an Orca? Your answer was showing me a quote where I said they *can't*. Care to try again?


Apologies, i posted the wrong quote, but the point still stands that you said yourself they can remove the orcas and distract them, which goes against the quote.



> Jackies post contains the words -
> 6. Not sure exactly when but within approx 6 weeks Morgans extended family are located
> What actually happened if you look at the facts here - Orca Morgan's family may have been found
> Basically they might have found some animals that may be related, in some distant way. Even for a healthy adult, this info just isn't good enough.


However, we are now denied vocalisation recordings to resume finding her family. Why? because they dont want us to find them. and let's not forget the DNA results.




> Big thing here, humans live on the land, lions live on the land, they overlap constantly, Orca live in the open ocean. Despite this there have been a few attacks, which is fairly surprising considering how little we share their space.


people on fishing boats, Eskimos, biologists etc.
Well whats the excuse for sharks? though very little died by them, some humans were killed. 
Orcas only killed humans in captivity.



> She left Hardewijk in december. Try reading the post of 'facts' you linked above. As for monkeys in a parrot cage, have you never see one?? Fur loss, massive muscle wastage, stereotypical behaviour, most of them can barely climb. Whereas captive orca in good enclosures can reach tremendous speeds and dive out of the water, that is a strong animal.


I don't really care where she is, all the aquariums with orcas are the same. bad. 
I have seen several monkeys in parrot cages, one appears on my local ads every few weeks.
I saw them with my own eyes, they readily climbed around the cage, they didnt have any fur loss (though there was 2 of them together which may have a difference) and even though they were eating crap, they didnt seem to have any illnesses. This is still absolutely wrong, and because the monkeys werent on the ground, bald doesnt mean that they are happy.
'good enclosure' doesnt exist for orcas, but i just want her dead so what do i know.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Apologies, i posted the wrong quote, but the point still stands that you said yourself they can remove the orcas and distract them, which goes against the quote.


Training animals to obey commands or shutting them behind a gate is nothing to do with forcing them to do something.




yugimon121 said:


> However, we are now denied vocalisation recordings to resume finding her family. Why? because they dont want us to find them. and let's not forget the DNA results.


It was SOS and Hardewijk who were originally looking for the family, but it was then discovered that even if they found the family release would most likely cause her early demise, so they stopped looking. The woman who originally took recordings of her voice and tried to match them up is still there making her recordings but now for a different reason. Full info here - Dr Samarra and Morgan




yugimon121 said:


> people on fishing boats, Eskimos, biologists etc.
> Well whats the excuse for sharks? though very little died by them, some humans were killed.
> Orcas only killed humans in captivity.


None of which live in the sea. Sharks kill maybe one or two people a year because they are usually coastal animals who attack swimmers and surfers. Orca are open ocean animals, that means they live away from the coast, where the people are.




yugimon121 said:


> I don't really care where she is, all the aquariums with orcas are the same. bad.


You are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## em_40

''It was SOS and Hardewijk who were originally looking for the family, but it was then discovered that even if they found the family release would most likely cause her early demise, so they stopped looking. The woman who originally took recordings of her voice and tried to match them up is still there making her recordings but now for a different reason. Full info here - Dr Samarra and Morgan''

Why was it that they changed their mind? They knew she was young from the begining, and it was said that she would be a good candidate for release when they rescued her and got her back up to health and then they changed their mind and decided even if they found her family it wouldn't be worth it?


----------



## Devi

em_40 said:


> Why was it that they changed their mind? They knew she was young from the begining, and it was said that she would be a good candidate for release when they rescued her and got her back up to health and then they changed their mind and decided even if they found her family it wouldn't be worth it?


It wasn't a case of changing their mind but a case of getting a massive amount of expert opinions.
The official report is here - Morgan Report
and the info from the specialists in the local whale population - North Atlantic Killer Whales


----------



## em_40

Thanks, interesting read

Still mostly seems that IF they found her pod and IF they tried to reduce human contact and get her hunting she COULD be re-introduced into her group, but they think that it is highly unlikely they will ever know exactly which sub-pod she came from because of dispersal and she was found so far from where she _should_ have been. 

I get what you mean about not releasing the DNA results now, the experts they consulted obviously had access to them and all of them came to the conclusion that the DNA results didn't give 'proof' enough of which pod she came from. 

Seems they maybe should have done things differently in the begining (keeping human contact down and hunting not feeding dead fish) but they didn't have the means to do so, had she arrived here she would have been put down on site, and that would have been sad too. She's been brought up to health now so would be even more sad for her to be put down now.


Making the most of a bad situation, maybe... 
I still don't think captive conditions are good enough yet, and would prefer to see her go into a release programme but... If they wouldn't be able to get her intergrated into a pod or she'd die anyway it wouldn't be worth it. 

I trust that the experts know more than me :whistling2:


----------



## Devi

em_40 said:


> Thanks, interesting read
> 
> Still mostly seems that IF they found her pod and IF they tried to reduce human contact and get her hunting she COULD be re-introduced into her group, but they think that it is highly unlikely they will ever know exactly which sub-pod she came from because of dispersal and she was found so far from where she _should_ have been.


That's basically it, loads and loads of ifs. Having said that, SOS have rehabbed plenty of cetaceans, dolphins of a few species and loads of porpoises, if anyone could have done it, it would be them. But from what they've learnt here, I'd say that if another one turns up they would have a much better shot at rehab and release.


----------



## yugimon121

> Training animals to obey commands or shutting them behind a gate is nothing to do with forcing them to do something.


But who's to say if they are attacking morgan to death, they will obey the trained commands? they wont, which is how Tilikum was able to drown the trainer.



> It was SOS and Hardewijk who were originally looking for the family, but it was then discovered that even if they found the family release would most likely cause her early demise, so they stopped looking. The woman who originally took recordings of her voice and tried to match them up is still there making her recordings but now for a different reason. Full info here - Dr Samarra and Morgan


Yes, but the Orca Springer, was in a similar situation but has been successfully released and now lives with her pod in the wild.
I understand SOS and Hardewijk tried the best, but they went around it completely wrong. 
As said before, instead of keeping her in a prison, start adapting her to hunting



> None of which live in the sea. Sharks kill maybe one or two people a year because they are usually coastal animals who attack swimmers and surfers. Orca are open ocean animals, that means they live away from the coast, where the people are.


actually, Killer whales are found in the open ocean, but they seem to be most abundant in coastal waters.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Yes, but the Orca Springer, was in a similar situation but has been successfully released and now lives with her pod in the wild.


Springer was a known animal who had been thoroughly researched while in the wild and seen with her pod being looked after properly. Her mother was known to have died and Springer was missing. She was simply returned to the people who had been caring for her before perfectly well. In addition, she was not nearly as ill and didn't require removal from the sea apart from a short transport.




yugimon121 said:


> actually, Killer whales are found in the open ocean, but they seem to be most abundant in coastal waters.


Look at it this way, this is an orca with a human for size comparison -










This is a human with a bull shark, the shark responsible for the most human deaths, which is actually 2 in the last 10 years -










As you can see, the shark is much smaller and would therefore be able to easily enter the water where swimmers are. The orca, being bigger and considerably less agile, just wouldn't physically be able to get there.


----------



## yugimon121

> Look at it this way, this is an orca with a human for size comparison -
> 
> This is a human with a bull shark, the shark responsible for the most human deaths, which is actually 2 in the last 10 years -
> 
> As you can see, the shark is much smaller and would therefore be able to easily enter the water where swimmers are. The orca, being bigger and considerably less agile, just wouldn't physically be able to get there.


Agreed that they cant get as close to people surfing or swimming, but people sailing and such would easily be out in orca waters.


----------



## yugimon121

as if her prison isnt enough..
Wild orca Morgan's shocking new wounds at Loro Parque - WDCS Blog - From the Front Line


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> as if her prison isnt enough..
> Wild orca Morgan's shocking new wounds at Loro Parque - WDCS Blog - From the Front Line


Her 'prison' is known as a tank or enclosure. You'll know that as you see them at every zoo in the world. As for the mark, it's a rake mark, you'll see them on every orca in captivity and in the wild. It can be from dominance displays or playing. 
Here's a much worse example on a wild orca.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Her 'prison' is known as a tank or enclosure. You'll know that as you see them at every zoo in the world. As for the mark, it's a rake mark, you'll see them on every orca in captivity and in the wild. It can be from dominance displays or playing.
> Here's a much worse example on a wild orca.
> image


Her prison (no inverted commas) is a small and cruel tank or enclosure. You don't see these in every zoo because the keeping cetaceans is very rare and left to those who care only for money. Seeing as your so supportive of their captors, can you answer why they withdrew their promise of keeping her from the public?
Why had they not even openly considered Free Morgans rehab plan, though it was created shortly after she was rescued?
Why had they not placed her in a sea pen instead of an aquarium?

At sea there is predators, who's to say that that came from another orca? (besides you of course)


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Her prison (no inverted commas) is a small and cruel tank or enclosure. You don't see these in every zoo because the keeping cetaceans is very rare and left to those who care only for money. Seeing as your so supportive of their captors, can you answer why they withdrew their promise of keeping her from the public?
> Why had they not even openly considered Free Morgans rehab plan, though it was created shortly after she was rescued?
> Why had they not placed her in a sea pen instead of an aquarium?
> 
> At sea there is predators, who's to say that that came from another orca? (besides you of course)


To deal with the money thing, not sure how much you know about zoos, but they won't make you a millionaire, most of them barely break even. I have no idea how you think that people who keep one type of animal are doing it for money yet others are good hearted animal lovers, it's bizarre logic to say the least.
As for keeping her from the public, where do you expect them to put her? In a dark box under Loro Parque? It's a 2 tonne orca, it's tricky to hide.
They don't need to 'openly' consider anything. How many cetaceans has the free morgan group released with successful follow up? Because SOS have a fair few, I think they might be a bit better at it.
Oh and I nearly forgot, we know rakes come from other orca because there are people who study orca, you may have heard of it before? Raking is the characteristic mark left by the teeth of orca when the drag their teeth along the skin of another animal. Add to that the fact that Orca are apex predators, they have no natural predators in the wild.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> To deal with the money thing, not sure how much you know about zoos, but they won't make you a millionaire, most of them barely break even. I have no idea how you think that people who keep one type of animal are doing it for money yet others are good hearted animal lovers, it's bizarre logic to say the least.
> As for keeping her from the public, where do you expect them to put her? In a dark box under Loro Parque? It's a 2 tonne orca, it's tricky to hide.
> They don't need to 'openly' consider anything. How many cetaceans has the free morgan group released with successful follow up? Because SOS have a fair few, I think they might be a bit better at it.


If you would look back i said "you don't see these in every zoo"

Last time I heard in Sea World for instance, there is a performance pool where the orcas do the tricks, and then there is the "Large" area in the back where they spend the remainder of their time.
The Free Morgan Group includes the organisations of Orcalab, Orca Network, Orca Research Trust, Centre for Whale Research, Project SeaWolf Coastal Protection, Cetacean Society International, Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society and the International Marine Mammal Project of Earth Island. I think they know what they're talking about.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> The Free Morgan Group includes the organisations of Orcalab, Orca Network, Orca Research Trust, Centre for Whale Research, Project SeaWolf Coastal Protection, Cetacean Society International, Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society and the International Marine Mammal Project of Earth Island. I think they know what they're talking about.


Ok, so out of all of those organisations, how many have a single cetacean release with successful follow up?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Ok, so out of all of those organisations, how many have a single cetacean release with successful follow up?


they saved 44 pilot whales last year actually.

Of the 7 who said morgan shouldnt be released, 4 changed their minds.

and it is obvious orcas are for the money, everyone would tell you that. Like animals in circuses.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> they saved 44 pilot whales last year actually.


The ones pushed back into the sea by BDMLR and the navy? Apart from not being a release or particularly successful, what did the organisations you quoted above have to do with it?



yugimon121 said:


> and it is obvious orcas are for the money, everyone would tell you that. Like animals in circuses.


There's a lot of people who say a lot of things, that doesn't make it true.


----------



## yugimon121

> The ones pushed back into the sea by BDMLR and the navy? Apart from not being a release or particularly successful, what did the organisations you quoted above have to do with it?


The WDCS had a team there, who did quite alot of work. 
Oh, you mean rehab? no they don't do that, but they are experts nonetheless. For instance a vet doesnt need to own a horse to know how to care for them.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> The WDCS had a team there, who did quite alot of work.


Do you have a source for that because I can't find a mention anywhere?



yugimon121 said:


> Oh, you mean rehab? no they don't do that, but they are experts nonetheless. For instance a vet doesnt need to own a horse to know how to care for them.


I mean a release, like taking an animal from human care and putting it in the sea? It's a very complicated process, which few organisations have done successfully. The idea of someone being an 'expert' in something without ever having experienced it, and somehow knowing more about it than the people who have experienced it multiple times is pretty laughable.


----------



## yugimon121

> Do you have a source for that because I can't find a mention anywhere?


Yes I do actually
WDCS International - Strandings - Mass Stranding Of Pilot Whales In Northern Scotland
it is on of the first things that comes up if you google "WDCS pilot whales"


> I mean a release, like taking an animal from human care and putting it in the sea? It's a very complicated process, which few organisations have done successfully. The idea of someone being an 'expert' in something without ever having experienced it, and somehow knowing more about it than the people who have experienced it multiple times is pretty laughable.


yes, a rehab release. they are rehabbed into full health, and released. a release could also be the pilot whales, who were released back into the sea.
I mean they are experts of Cetaceans, sorry if you believed I meant experts of rehab and release. As said before, 4 of the 7 experts that were to decide morgans fate withdrew their thoughts on keeping her in captivity, so even the people who were for it are turning against it.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Yes I do actually
> WDCS International - Strandings - Mass Stranding Of Pilot Whales In Northern Scotland
> it is on of the first things that comes up if you google "WDCS pilot whales"


That says there was a team of people from wdcs, it doesn't say they did a lot of the work, it doesn't even say they did any of the work. 



yugimon121 said:


> yes, a rehab release. they are rehabbed into full health, and released. a release could also be the pilot whales, who were released back into the sea.
> I mean they are experts of Cetaceans, sorry if you believed I meant experts of rehab and release.


Pushing an animal into the sea which will almost certainly die is not release, it's the same as shooing a fly out of the window. They know nothing about releasing cetaceans properly.
It is worth knowing that the people who coordinated the pilot whale operation are some of the people who are hoping for a rehab facility in the UK based on SOS Dolfijn and the american centres which will include non release of some patients who will live for life in zoos and aquariums.


----------



## yugimon121

> That says there was a team of people from wdcs, it doesn't say they did a lot of the work, it doesn't even say they did any of the work.


I can provide you a number to a member who was there, if you'd like?



> Pushing an animal into the sea which will almost certainly die is not release, it's the same as shooing a fly out of the window. They know nothing about releasing cetaceans properly.
> It is worth knowing that the people who coordinated the pilot whale operation are some of the people who are hoping for a rehab facility in the UK based on SOS Dolfijn and the american centres which will include non release of some patients who will live for life in zoos and aquariums.


Are you suggesting that A.) they should have taken all 44 into captivity regardless of health condition or B.) leave them to die?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Are you suggesting that A.) they should have taken all 44 into captivity regardless of health condition or B.) leave them to die?


Their best chance of survival would be to be taken into captivity. Refloatation (pushing them back into the sea) often does not save the whales and most of the cetaceans involved will end up dead. Refloating is better than leaving them, but not by much. Mass strandings are more likely to survive, but prognosis is still pretty grim.


----------



## em_40

''As said before, 4 of the 7 experts that were to decide morgans fate withdrew their thoughts on keeping her in captivity, so even the people who were for it are turning against it.''

Where's their statment from them of why they changed thir mind and what they changed it to please?


----------



## yugimon121

> Where's their statment from them of why they changed thir mind and what they changed it to please?


As the experts are anonymous,here you go
Experts Dolfinarium revise their opinions regarding orca Morgan. | Orka Coalitie
Jackie-K has done alot of research, and the list of facts they pointed out are true.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> As the experts are anonymous,here you go
> Experts Dolfinarium revise their opinions regarding orca Morgan. | Orka Coalitie
> Jackie-K has done alot of research, and the list of facts they pointed out are true.


I think what she's asking for is proof of them changing their mind and their reasons for doing so. Do you know where that info is?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> I think what she's asking for is proof of them changing their mind and their reasons for doing so. Do you know where that info is?


The experts haven't been revealed, so they don't have any websites/statements
Unfortunately I haven't heard of Morgan when the court case was occurring, but Jackie-K may know if you would like to pm them?


----------



## em_40

The 7 experts names were on the link that Devi posted earlier, as was their whole statement as to the pros and cons of the whales release. If they changed their minds then I would think they would wish to change their statment as they would know what a huge impact their statements played on whether she were to be released or remain captive.

I couldn't see any new evidence that the free morgan campaign had come up with that was not considered in the orginal statements, they knew they had found what culd have been her extended family but didn't think it was good enough. 

Couldn't find anything in the court evidence either, and their names aren't on the expert panel or the supporters page, who is just a load of models, that seems odd XD


----------



## yugimon121

em_40 said:


> The 7 experts names were on the link that Devi posted earlier, as was their whole statement as to the pros and cons of the whales release. If they changed their minds then I would think they would wish to change their statment as they would know what a huge impact their statements played on whether she were to be released or remain captive.
> 
> I couldn't see any new evidence that the free morgan campaign had come up with that was not considered in the orginal statements, they knew they had found what culd have been her extended family but didn't think it was good enough.
> 
> Couldn't find anything in the court evidence either, and their names aren't on the expert panel or the supporters page, who is just a load of models, that seems odd XD


Apologies, don't see how i could have missed that xD
Yes, I saw that. But they are supporting the Free Morgan cause, not a part of it.
I am not sure what they changed it to , I'll drop a PM to Jackie-K and see do they know.


----------



## Animalmadrew

yugimon121 said:


> as if her prison isnt enough..
> Wild orca Morgan's shocking new wounds at Loro Parque - WDCS Blog - From the Front Line


Prison - "any place of confinement or involuntary restraint."
Prison | Define Prison at Dictionary.com

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but none of my pets volunteered to be in tanks, so would you describe my pets as prisoners? I'm not saying that the orca, Morgan, should be in captivity or as you say in "prison", but the whole likening its situation to that of a human really confuses me.


----------



## yugimon121

> Now, I don't know about anyone else, but none of my pets volunteered to be in tanks, so would you describe my pets as prisoners? I'm not saying that the orca, Morgan, should be in captivity or as you say in "prison", but the whole likening its situation to that of a human really confuses me.


That depends, do you have a crocodile in a fish tank? an iguana in an exo terra? a cat in a vivarium?
As said before, I have nothing wrong with keeping animals in captivity as long as it is done right. We are not at the stage where we can properly care for orcas.
The reason it is becoming like a human situation is because many people count cetaceans as non-human persons, because of their high intelligence and socialism.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> That depends, do you have a crocodile in a fish tank? an iguana in an exo terra? a cat in a vivarium?
> As said before, I have nothing wrong with keeping animals in captivity as long as it is done right. We are not at the stage where we can properly care for orcas.
> The reason it is becoming like a human situation is because many people count cetaceans as non-human persons, because of their high intelligence and socialism.


Considering orca tanks are generally at least 5 times their length even in the worst scenario, that comparison is a little silly don't you think? 
And the campaign to make cetaceans 'non human persons' has been ridiculed by pretty much everyone.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Considering orca tanks are generally at least 5 times their length even in the worst scenario, that comparison is a little silly don't you think?
> And the campaign to make cetaceans 'non human persons' has been ridiculed by pretty much everyone.


5 times?! wow for an animal that travels up to 160 km a day in the wild, this is amazing!
compare the travel of a leopard gecko in the wild to the travel of an orca. pretty large difference, isn't it?
not to animal right activists, it isnt. but then again, we are 'terrorists'.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> 5 times?! wow for an animal that travels up to 160 km a day in the wild, this is amazing!
> compare the travel of a leopard gecko in the wild to the travel of an orca. pretty large difference, isn't it?
> not to animal right activists, it isnt. but then again, we are 'terrorists'.


Ever seen how far a leopard gecko goes? Its a bit further than a foot or two. Think about the range of a canary, or a dove, that's a lot further than an orca, but they live in cages 2 or 3 times their length as standard. Maybe you should focus your attention on them?


----------



## Animalmadrew

yugimon121 said:


> 5 times?! wow for an animal that travels up to 160 km a day in the wild, this is amazing!
> compare the travel of a leopard gecko in the wild to the travel of an orca. pretty large difference, isn't it?
> not to animal right activists, it isnt. but then again, we are 'terrorists'.


What about locust? Don't they travel together over huge distances? Mine are kept in little tubs and then fed to my pets. I must be evil in your view then :devil:


----------



## yugimon121

Animalmadrew said:


> What about locust? Don't they travel together over huge distances? Mine are kept in little tubs and then fed to my pets. I must be evil in your view then :devil:


big difference here mate, starting with most inverts dont feel pain, they arent even covered by animal welfare laws. 
I could write an entire paragraph, but it seems like your trying to change the topic.
anything to add on orcas?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> big difference here mate, starting with most inverts dont feel pain, they arent even covered by animal welfare laws.
> I could write an entire paragraph, but it seems like your trying to change the topic.
> anything to add on orcas?


Oh, so if laws say it's ok then it's fine? In which case we should probably move all orca to their minimum tank requirements.
The truth is, many animals wander vast distances in the wild, humans used to be nomadic too, but they do so in pursuit of food, water, breeding, etc when given these things easily they don't need to go anywhere.


----------



## Animalmadrew

yugimon121 said:


> big difference here mate, starting with most inverts dont feel pain, they arent even covered by animal welfare laws.
> I could write an entire paragraph, but it seems like your trying to change the topic.
> anything to add on orcas?


Woah mate, slow down there. Firstly you were arguing with Devi, not me and secondly, ask yourself this, why would I be trying to change the subject? Weren't you responding to Devi before my comment? As I do not know Devi, why would I want to change the subject? 
Oh and as a self proclaimed animal rights activist, just because locusts arent covered by animal welfare laws, does it make their deaths right?
And stuff to add on orcas, I am not an expert on orcas, so I do not feel educated enough to make any more comments at this moment in time : victory:
Thanks


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Oh, so if laws say it's ok then it's fine? In which case we should probably move all orca to their minimum tank requirements.
> The truth is, many animals wander vast distances in the wild, humans used to be nomadic too, but they do so in pursuit of food, water, breeding, etc when given these things easily they don't need to go anywhere.


what? i said they arent *even*, implying that it would be atleast a beginning.
a leopard gecko travelling 160 km a day? thats a new one!


Animalmadrew said:


> Woah mate, slow down there. Firstly you were arguing with Devi, not me and secondly, ask yourself this, why would I be trying to change the subject? Weren't you responding to Devi before my comment? As I do not know Devi, why would I want to change the subject?
> Oh and as a self proclaimed animal rights activist, just because locusts arent covered by animal welfare laws, does it make their deaths right?
> And stuff to add on orcas, I am not an expert on orcas, so I do not feel educated enough to make any more comments at this moment in time : victory:
> Thanks


correct, but we were arguing about morgan, your asking me about locusts and rights. I'm not saying your doing it intentionally, but you are doing it nonetheless.
So, nothing at all to say on well being of morgan?


----------



## em_40

Birds like parrots that fly in large flocks, and need mental stimulation, it's just as bad to keep them in a cage as it is to keep orca in an 'aquarium', but again sometimes it's for the best, if it would die in the wild, then _maybe_ it's best to keep it alive in captivity.

The maybe is dependant on the quality of life and whether it would be better off dead :|


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> what? i said they arent *even*, implying that it would be atleast a beginning.
> a leopard gecko travelling 160 km a day? thats a new one!


So you're ignoring the fact that birds usually travel across continents? Interesting. Care to explain why?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> So you're ignoring the fact that birds usually travel across continents? Interesting. Care to explain why?


last time i checked you said many animals.
regardless, I am against those tiny cages, as i said before. they need a large aviary, and in the case of larger birds like pigeons to be allowed fly out in the open.


----------



## Zoo-Man

Animalmadrew said:


> Woah mate, slow down there. Firstly you were arguing with Devi, not me and secondly, ask yourself this, why would I be trying to change the subject? Weren't you responding to Devi before my comment? As I do not know Devi, why would I want to change the subject?
> Oh and as a self proclaimed animal rights activist, just because locusts arent covered by animal welfare laws, does it make their deaths right?
> And stuff to add on orcas, I am not an expert on orcas, so I do not feel educated enough to make any more comments at this moment in time : victory:
> Thanks


Getting rather daft now isn't it? A locust not only has intelligence that couldn't be further from an Orca's, but it also has minimal capacity to suffer, unlike an Orca. So if you don't know anything about Orca, & have no opinion on Morgan's plight, what drew you to post in this thread?


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Getting rather daft now isn't it? A locust not only has intelligence that couldn't be further from an Orca's, but it also has minimal capacity to suffer, unlike an Orca. So if you don't know anything about Orca, & have no opinion on Morgan's plight, what drew you to post in this thread?


The fact that we aren't inverts makes it tricky to determine capacity to suffer, they certainly react to injury and seek basic needs (food water etc) with a passion. 
I know certainly some inverts show human-like traits such as learning (hermit crabs) and problem solving (octopus).
Orca have shown limited problem solving ability.


----------



## Zoo-Man

em_40 said:


> Birds like parrots that fly in large flocks, and need mental stimulation, it's just as bad to keep them in a cage as it is to keep orca in an 'aquarium', but again sometimes it's for the best, if it would die in the wild, then _maybe_ it's best to keep it alive in captivity.
> 
> The maybe is dependant on the quality of life and whether it would be better off dead :|


Morgan's quality of life seem poor to me. Living in an artificial pool, bullied by the other Orcas there, spending most of her time in a small side pool floating near the surface.


----------



## Devi

Zoo-Man said:


> Morgan's quality of life seem poor to me. Living in an artificial pool, bullied by the other Orcas there, spending most of her time in a small side pool floating near the surface.


All animals in captivity live in artificial environments. The group at Loro Parque are now getting on better after the initial dominance scuffles, and live most of the time as a single group. As Yugimon has said, she is performing in shows which usually consist of at least 3 animals, with no bullying behaviour at all.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> All animals in captivity live in artificial environments. The group at Loro Parque are now getting on better after the initial dominance scuffles, and live most of the time as a single group. As Yugimon has said, she is performing in shows which usually consist of at least 3 animals, with no bullying behaviour at all.


going against their original promise of not making her perform for the public...


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> going against their original promise of not making her perform for the public...


Promise where?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Promise where?


what?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> what?


Let me rephrase. Where have Loro Parque promised not to provide stimulation for Morgan by allowing her to participate in shows?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Let me rephrase. Where have Loro Parque promised not to provide stimulation for Morgan by allowing her to participate in shows?


They did not literally promise, but morgan was rescued under the conditions that she would not go on display to the public and released when healthy.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> They did not literally promise, but morgan was rescued under the conditions that she would not go on display to the public and released when healthy.


SOS Dolfijn rescued her with the hope she could be released, unfortunately, circumstances changed, she couldn't be released. These things happen. They certainly didn't promise to keep her hidden for life, neither should they.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> SOS Dolfijn rescued her with the hope she could be released, unfortunately, circumstances changed, she couldn't be released. These things happen. They certainly didn't promise to keep her hidden for life, neither should they.


That was the original agreement made for her rescue, regardless.
And as said before only a small fraction of their tiny pool is public, and its not like there are shows 24/7


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> That was the original agreement made for her rescue, regardless.
> And as said before only a small fraction of their tiny pool is public, and its not like there are shows 24/7


Agreement with who? The rescued her because nobody else could, there was no agreement with any anti caps organisation. 
Not sure why you want 24/7 shows?


----------



## yugimon121

I said its "its not like there are shows 24/7"? i dont see how you got i want 24/7 shows from that?
maybe if i rephrase it: at average, id say there would be about 3 of the orca shows a day, the rest of the day nothing happens. this area would be open to the orcas with no humans there, thus morgan would not be in public.


please everyone watch this
The Story of Morgan the Orca - YouTube
it made me cry, its just so depressing..


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I said its "its not like there are shows 24/7"? i dont see how you got i want 24/7 shows from that?
> maybe if i rephrase it: at average, id say there would be about 3 of the orca shows a day, the rest of the day nothing happens. this area would be open to the orcas with no humans there, thus morgan would not be in public.


Yup, cause most zoos hide their attractions away. What a daft statement.




yugimon121 said:


> please everyone watch this
> The Story of Morgan the Orca - YouTube
> it made me cry, its just so depressing..


The video protests the keeping of Morgan at Harderwijk, harderwijk never had the facilities to keep her long term and requested to transfer her asap to a suitable facility, it was the free morgan foundation who went to court to keep her at harderwijk in solitary confinement.


----------



## Animalmadrew

Zoo-Man said:


> Getting rather daft now isn't it? A locust not only has intelligence that couldn't be further from an Orca's, but it also has minimal capacity to suffer, unlike an Orca. So if you don't know anything about Orca, & have no opinion on Morgan's plight, what drew you to post in this thread?


You may have forgotten, but my original post is on page 5 : victory: Hope that helps:2thumb: I believe that the discussion has moved on from simply the fate of Morgan and more to animal treatment in cativity. I believe that if you wish to continue to insult me:naughty:, you should do so through the PM system instead of cluttering up this thread


----------



## yugimon121

> Yup, cause most zoos hide their attractions away. What a daft statement.


That is what they said. its a wild orca, not something that simply needs to be tamed and turned into another slave.
It's not hiding, its not using as a money maker.



> The video protests the keeping of Morgan at Harderwijk, harderwijk never had the facilities to keep her long term and requested to transfer her asap to a suitable facility, it was the free morgan foundation who went to court to keep her at harderwijk in solitary confinement.


The video shows morgan at Harderwijk, it wants her to be released back into the ocean, not moved to a slightly better place. 
3:28, if you want proof.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> That is what they said. its a wild orca, not something that simply needs to be tamed and turned into another slave.
> It's not hiding, its not using as a money maker.


So on your last post you are complaining that you think she is hidden from the public when she isn't in a show (which she's not), and now you want her hidden away the whole time? 
In addition, slavery means a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them, so an animal can not be a slave. 




yugimon121 said:


> The video shows morgan at Harderwijk, it wants her to be released back into the ocean, not moved to a slightly better place.
> 3:28, if you want proof.


It specifically speaks about her being in a small dolphin tank alone, which she is now not. It doesn't really matter what the creator of the video wants, because they are a random person, sat at home, on their computer. What matters in this case, is what is best for the animal.


----------



## yugimon121

> So on your last post you are complaining that you think she is hidden from the public when she isn't in a show (which she's not), and now you want her hidden away the whole time?
> In addition, slavery means a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them, so an animal can not be a slave.


Already forgot the cetacean non-human person status I see, which is approved by animal rights activists such as myself.




> It specifically speaks about her being in a small dolphin tank alone, which she is now not. It doesn't really matter what the creator of the video wants, because they are a random person, sat at home, on their computer. What matters in this case, is what is best for the animal.


"It doesnt matter what the creator of the video wants" I can say the same about you, can i not? you seem to be the only one opposed to her freedom on this, so by saying that we would have a pro-freedom community
the best for the animal is freedom, or atleast openly discussing freedom and continue to confirm that her family is indeed found, and cutting out all possible options


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Already forgot the cetacean non-human person status I see, which is approved by animal rights activists such as myself.


You can't just say something random and make it true, I can call my cat a person if I like, doesn't make it true does it? Orca are animals.



yugimon121 said:


> I can say the same about you, can i not? you seem to be the only one opposed to her freedom on this, so by saying that we would have a pro-freedom community
> the best for the animal is freedom, or atleast openly discussing freedom and continue to confirm that her family is indeed found, and cutting out all possible options


I think being alive is a little better than being dead.


----------



## yugimon121

> You can't just say something random and make it true, I can call my cat a person if I like, doesn't make it true does it? Orca are animals.


I didnt make that up, scientists are deciding it, because of their (and I'm not complaining through this again) intelligence



> I think being alive is a little better than being dead.


I think experts would know a tad bit more than you, and they never even discussed a release ever, they wanted her in captivity.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I didnt make that up, scientists are deciding it, because of their (and I'm not complaining through this again) intelligence


Proof? Because I think you'll find that it was taken to court on the 8th of february and it took them a very short amount of time to throw it back out. The full court papers are here - PETA vs Seaworld




yugimon121 said:


> I think experts would know a tad bit more than you, and they never even discussed a release ever, they wanted her in captivity.


Your definition of experts is a little odd as already discussed. I've already linked the full investigation into release in a previous post.


----------



## yugimon121

> Proof? Because I think you'll find that it was taken to court on the 8th of february and it took them a very short amount of time to throw it back out. The full court papers are here - PETA vs Seaworld


i wasn't even thinking of the PETA case when i said that, It exists outside the animal welfare group
Whales and dolphins 'should have legal rights' | World news | The Guardian



> Your definition of experts is a little odd as already discussed. I've already linked the full investigation into release in a previous post.


I believe there are more than 7 experts of orcas in the world, and as already stated 4 changed their minds.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> i wasn't even thinking of the PETA case when i said that, It exists outside the animal welfare group
> Whales and dolphins 'should have legal rights' | World news | The Guardian


And where on that post does it say it's true or even that any country is thinking of including such a law? They don't even name any of the 'scientists' who want it, or if they are qualified at all.




yugimon121 said:


> I believe there are more than 7 experts of orcas in the world, and as already stated 4 changed their minds.


Are those the same 4 that you couldn't find any proof of a few pages ago?
As for your 'experts', you have mainly spoken about former sea world employees with no qualifications at all. I used to work in a aquarium too, does that make me an expert?


----------



## yugimon121

> And where on that post does it say it's true or even that any country is thinking of including such a law? They don't even name any of the 'scientists' who want it, or if they are qualified at all


They are not, but many people are considering it. I for one believe it, along with all animal right activists.




> Are those the same 4 that you couldn't find any proof of a few pages ago?
> As for your 'experts', you have mainly spoken about former sea world employees with no qualifications at all. I used to work in a aquarium too, does that make me an expert?


are they not the best sources? the people behind enemy lines? the people who experienced it first hand?
i never stated they were experts, they are just supporters. they have their own experts, such as the ones form WDCS and the Orca coalition.


----------



## em_40

Well from reading the link provided by Devi, it _seems_ that they picked 7 experts, who both work with Orca in the wild and captivity and have experience with previous releases, and they asked them to write a statement of the pros and cons of her release and a conclusion as to whether it should be attempted or whether she would be better off in captivity. They weren't bias in any way, they could have gone either way but all of them decided by themselves that she was better off in captvity.

Would like to see what the 4 changed their minds to and why.

Also: Why does it make a difference if they are intelligent? and how do you determine intelligence?


----------



## yugimon121

em_40 said:


> Well from reading the link provided by Devi, it _seems_ that they picked 7 experts, who both work with Orca in the wild and captivity and have experience with previous releases, and they asked them to write a statement of the pros and cons of her release and a conclusion as to whether it should be attempted or whether she would be better off in captivity. They weren't bias in any way, they could have gone either way but all of them decided by themselves that she was better off in captvity.
> 
> Would like to see what the 4 changed their minds to and why.
> 
> Also: Why does it make a difference if they are intelligent? and how do you determine intelligence?


After some research, James McBain works for the infamous Seaworld as a veterinary consultant. I don't think anything else needs to be said on the matter.


----------



## em_40

That means nothinmg to me, I already read 
''James McBain has helped with veterinary advice and as he has a lifetime experience with killer whales under human care, was acquainted with the inns and outs of Morgan’s case, and had involvement with the only successfully rehabilitated and released killer whale so far, was asked to contribute as well.''

So...? 

He sounds like a VERY good person to contribute.

You yourself said this 'are they not the best sources? the people behind enemy lines? the people who experienced it first hand?' regarding those who worked at seaworld.


----------



## yugimon121

em_40 said:


> That means nothinmg to me, I already read
> ''James McBain has helped with veterinary advice and as he has a lifetime experience with killer whales under human care, was acquainted with the inns and outs of Morgan’s case, and had involvement with the only successfully rehabilitated and released killer whale so far, was asked to
> contribute as well.''
> 
> So...?
> 
> He sounds like a VERY good person to contribute.


you really think someone is going to go against their job?
don't be foolish


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> are they not the best sources? the people behind enemy lines? the people who experienced it first hand?
> i never stated they were experts, they are just supporters. they have their own experts, such as the ones form WDCS and the Orca coalition.


Who are these 'experts' then that you have managed to fail to mention in 20 pages of this thread?



yugimon121 said:


> you really think someone is going to go against their job?
> don't be foolish


Anyone with exotic animals, yourself included, knows how hard it is to find a decent exotics vet. Imagine how hard it is when you have a poorly orca? There is no chance that they will swap the vet they use because there won't be another one!
In addition seaworld runs one of the best rehab and release programs in the states, releasing 86% of the animals they have. From the website that includes - gray whales, a Bryde's whale, a minke whale, common dolphins, Risso's dolphins, bottlenose dolphins, Pacific white-sided dolphins, spinner dolphins, spotted dolphins, a northern right whale dolphin, killer whales, false killer whales, pygmy killer whales, pilot whales, sperm whales, pygmy sperm whales, and dwarf sperm whales.
I'd say that having released that many species the dude may know his stuff.
Besides the fact that as stated many times, Morgan is nothing to do with sea world.


----------



## Zoo-Man

Animalmadrew said:


> You may have forgotten, but my original post is on page 5 : victory: Hope that helps:2thumb: I believe that the discussion has moved on from simply the fate of Morgan and more to animal treatment in cativity. I believe that if you wish to continue to insult me:naughty:, you should do so through the PM system instead of cluttering up this thread


Where did I insult you??? :yeahright:


----------



## em_40

Besides the fact that Morgan is not at Seaworld and all the experience he has even if he said 'yes she should stay in captivity' as he was so biased (which I assume is what you are implying) he still could have been the only one of 7 to come that to conclusion, but he wasn't.


----------



## yugimon121

> Who are these 'experts' then that you have managed to fail to mention in 20 pages of this thread?


Seeing as you critisize alot saying "you know how to use google" never decided to look on the WDCS website? I'll still name them out then
Mark Simmonds
Regina Asmutis-Silvia
Karsten Brensing
heres the full list
WDCS International - Staff Profiles - Policy
and thats just one organisation of the Free morgan group




> Anyone with exotic animals, yourself included, knows how hard it is to find a decent exotics vet. Imagine how hard it is when you have a poorly orca? There is no chance that they will swap the vet they use because there won't be another one!


Bit confused where this comes in?


> In addition seaworld runs one of the best rehab and release programs in the states, releasing 86% of the animals they have. From the website that includes - gray whales, a Bryde's whale, a minke whale, common dolphins, Risso's dolphins, bottlenose dolphins, Pacific white-sided dolphins, spinner dolphins, spotted dolphins, a northern right whale dolphin, killer whales, false killer whales, pygmy killer whales, pilot whales, sperm whales, pygmy sperm whales, and dwarf sperm whales.
> I'd say that having released that many species the dude may know his stuff.
> Besides the fact that as stated many times, Morgan is nothing to do with sea world.


Yet they still support cetaceans in captivity. Until they release every orca (which will be the never) sea world will have countless enemies. You say sea world, the company released them. that does not mean he was involved. This is much like having a nazi being one of 7 people deciding the fate of an innocent jew.
Actually she does, for any children she has will be sea world property.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Seeing as you critisize alot saying "you know how to use google" never decided to look on the WDCS website? I'll still name them out then
> Mark Simmonds
> Regina Asmutis-Silvia
> Karsten Brensing
> heres the full list
> WDCS International - Staff Profiles - Policy
> and thats just one organisation of the Free morgan group


None of that page says anything about their personal views on Morgan at all?



yugimon121 said:


> Bit confused where this comes in?
> 
> Yet they still support cetaceans in captivity. Until they release every orca (which will be the never) sea world will have countless enemies. You say sea world, the company released them. that does not mean he was involved. This is much like having a nazi being one of 7 people deciding the fate of an innocent jew.



Are you seriously trying to compare an animal being looked after for her own good to the murder of six million jews?? That's freaking sick.


----------



## Animalmadrew

Zoo-Man said:


> Where did I insult you??? :yeahright:


I don't want this to turn into a personal argument, I've got nothing against you and as far as I can see, your pets are looked after very well, so I have nothing against you. If you must know where you insulted me (I'm guessing you just forgot about it) its here, in bold:

_"Getting rather *daft* now isn't it? A locust not only has intelligence that couldn't be further from an Orca's, but it also has minimal capacity to suffer, unlike an Orca. So if you don't know anything about Orca, & have no opinion on Morgan's plight, what drew you to post in this thread?"_

_Now I'm pretty sure calling someones points or ideas "daft" can be classed as a insult so I hope that has answered your question :2thumb:_
_You may think that we have conflicting beliefs, but even if we do, it doesn't meen I dislike you and everything you stand for, so I do not see a reason for making this personal._
_Thank you : victory:_


----------



## em_40

yugimon121 said:


> Seeing as you critisize alot saying "you know how to use google" never decided to look on the WDCS website? I'll still name them out then
> Mark Simmonds
> Regina Asmutis-Silvia
> Karsten Brensing
> heres the full list
> WDCS International - Staff Profiles - Policy
> and thats just one organisation of the Free morgan group


It is Cathy Williamson who speaks for the WDCS. Off the page you linked

''Cathy runs WDCS’s international programme of work against the capture, trade and keeping of cetaceans in captivity and has done so since January 1999.''

Do you really think someone would go against their job? :whistling2:


----------



## yugimon121

em_40 said:


> It is Cathy Williamson who speaks for the WDCS. Off the page you linked
> 
> ''Cathy runs WDCS’s international programme of work against the capture, trade and keeping of cetaceans in captivity and has done so since January 1999.''
> 
> Do you really think someone would go against their job? :whistling2:


touché, em :devil:
But the point still stands that independent experts from neither groups should have been chosen, for to make things fair shouldn't they have put one of wdcs's experts in?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> touché, em :devil:
> But the point still stands that independent experts from neither groups should have been chosen, for to make things fair shouldn't they have put one of wdcs's experts in?


Firstly you say you want nobody who has worked with orca in captivity, or at all actually, then you want an anti-captivity campaigner? You're having a laugh. 
What they want, and clearly chose, were people who knew about Orca in the wild and in captivity, and had experience of release. 
As said before, none of the free morgan group have any release experience that you can find, so they would not be considered experts in this situation.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Firstly you say you want nobody who has worked with orca in captivity, or at all actually, then you want an anti-captivity campaigner? You're having a laugh.
> What they want, and clearly chose, were people who knew about Orca in the wild and in captivity, and had experience of release.
> As said before, none of the free morgan group have any release experience that you can find, so they would not be considered experts in this situation.


It's the point that hes a Sea World employee that I find wrong. Should he be an independent vet I would have no issue with it. I said a free morgan member should have been involved to even it out.

"James McBain has helped with veterinary advice and as he has a lifetime experience with killer whales under human care, was acquainted with the inns and outs of Morgan’s case, and had involvement *with the only successfully rehabilitated and released killer whale so far*, was asked to
contribute as well"

According to this, only one orca was successfully rehabbed. I am not sure if thats true or not, as I can't find any recent records of cetacean releases.

In response to your previous post:
The WDCS openly supported morgans freedom and is a part of the Free Morgan Coalition. 

Your not looking at my point, If a nazi disagreed with that would he even live? no of course not. The freedom of Morgan will grow into something more, which includes increased lobbying to Sea World to free their cetaceans. Everything has a chain effect, and Sea World saw that.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> It's the point that hes a Sea World employee that I find wrong. Should he be an independent vet I would have no issue with it. I said a free morgan member should have been involved to even it out.


He is certainly not an employee. He is contracted to provide verterinary care for the animals there. This includes the previously mentioned rehabbed and released cetaceans. He has experience of actual rehabilitation, the free morgan group are campaigners who do not. It's ridiculous to suggest they should have a say when they don't know anything about it.



yugimon121 said:


> "James McBain has helped with veterinary advice and as he has a lifetime experience with killer whales under human care, was acquainted with the inns and outs of Morgan’s case, and had involvement *with the only successfully rehabilitated and released killer whale so far*, was asked to
> contribute as well"
> 
> According to this, only one orca was successfully rehabbed. I am not sure if thats true or not, as I can't find any recent records of cetacean releases.


This is a reference to Springer. There have been no succesful releases of animals who needed long term care like Morgan. A full list of Cetacean releases and follow up or lack of is on a previous post I sent so you have read it.



yugimon121 said:


> In response to your previous post:
> Your not looking at my point, If a nazi disagreed with that would he even live? no of course not.


Are you serious? You can't compare the two, it's sick and twisted and you should be ashamed of yourself



yugimon121 said:


> The freedom of Morgan will grow into something more, which includes increased lobbying to Sea World to free their cetaceans. Everything has a chain effect, and Sea World saw that.


Funny, so how come the release of every animal doesn't lead to the tearing down of every zoo in the country? Because that's not how it works. 
Some animals can survive in the wild, some can't, it's just a fact.


----------



## em_40

They only consider 'Springer' a successful release. He was successfully released because researchers had already been following the pod and knew that he and his mother had been split from the pod, when he was found he went straight into a sea pen and never became dependant of humans, they then released him where they knew his pod was with absolute certainty.

The others have failed because they remain attached to humans it eventually gets them killed in boat propellers.

Don't you think you should have read up on the likelyhood of her dying before making your judgment?


----------



## yugimon121

em_40 said:


> Don't you think you should have read up on the likelyhood of her dying before making your judgment?


I have read up, and made my decision, had i not read up would i have been able to keep my point this long?
As said countless times, should i must say this again i will scream
Her family has possibly been found, but we cannot find out because we are denied vital things such as the DNA results.
Why was she not placed in a sea pen to begin with?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I have read up, and made my decision, had i not read up would i have been able to keep my point this long?
> As said countless times, should i must say this again i will scream
> Her family has possibly been found, but we cannot find out because we are denied vital things such as the DNA results.
> Why was she not placed in a sea pen to begin with?


The DNA has been looked at, by specialists, there is no reason for you or any other random person to have access to veterinary records of any animal you are not the caretaker of. 
In addition, if put back in the sea she is more likely to die than to survive even if her parents were known.
Why is that so hard to understand?


----------



## em_40

yugimon121 said:


> I have read up, and made my decision, had i not read up would i have been able to keep my point this long?
> As said countless times, should i must say this again i will scream
> Her family has possibly been found, but we cannot find out because we are denied vital things such as the DNA results.
> Why was she not placed in a sea pen to begin with?


To be honest I thought your point was very weak through-out the post, and I actually started asking questions because it felt like you were asking the wrong ones, Devis point is strong throughout with good back-up links... 

Do you think she should die out at sea over remain in captivity?

regarding the possible family being found. As I have already said before also, the 7 experts that were called to put thier view across* KNEW THAT*, they had* ALL *of the available information, including the DNA results that have not been released to FreeMorgan. They thought that the DNA and vocal result were too weak to go on. 

She was not placed in a sea pen to begin with because she was in a worse state than Springer and they didn't know her pod. In a sea pen you keep contact to a minimum and theirs no other whales to interact with, considering it took over a year to get healthy, she would have been very lonely.


----------



## yugimon121

> To be honest I thought your point was very weak through-out the post, and I actually started asking questions because it felt like you were asking the wrong ones, Devis point is strong throughout with good back-up links...


You may think that, but most people who know even the slightest about orcas will agree that orcas shouldnt be in captivity. And before you say only those who know little believe that, I will refer back to the WDCS page


> Do you think she should die out at sea over remain in captivity


I think she should be given at the least the possibility of being released, even Keiko was who was in captivity for 20 years lasted for 6 months without human care. And at the very worst she wouldnt be with her familY pod, at the very worst. She would be put in a sea pen and taught to be independent.


> regarding the possible family being found. As I have already said before also, the 7 experts that were called to put thier view across* KNEW THAT*, they had* ALL *of the available information, including the DNA results that have not been released to FreeMorgan. They thought that the DNA and vocal result were too weak to go on.


Orcas are social animals, it is almost impossible to not say she has a pod.
Then why not give them to freemorgan to see if they can comfirm it's her family? As said before 4 changed their minds to agree for her release. Your acting like i am making this up, no I don't know why they changed but they did it regardless. You and devi are also forgetting that Loro Parque's orca's all belong to sea world, yet you keep saying morgan has nothing to do with Sea world.



> She was not placed in a sea pen to begin with because she was in a worse state than Springer and they didn't know her pod. In a sea pen you keep contact to a minimum and theirs no other whales to interact with, considering it took over a year to get healthy, she would have been very lonely.


*cough cough* Harderwijk anyone? didnt see any orcas there!


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> You may think that, but most people who know even the slightest about orcas will agree that orcas shouldnt be in captivity.


Apart from the people with degrees and stuff?



yugimon121 said:


> I think she should be given at the least the possibility of being released, even Keiko was who was in captivity for 20 years lasted for 6 months without human care. And at the very worst she wouldnt be with her familY pod, at the very worst. She would be put in a sea pen and taught to be independent.


So you'd rather she lived a couple of months in the sea slowly dying than live in captivity? Besides Keiko was human fed pretty much the whole time he was 'wild', he was never a properly wild Orca.



yugimon121 said:


> Orcas are social animals, it is almost impossible to not say she has a pod.
> Then why not give them to freemorgan to see if they can comfirm it's her family? As said before 4 changed their minds to agree for her release. Your acting like i am making this up, no I don't know why they changed but they did it regardless. You and devi are also forgetting that Loro Parque's orca's all belong to sea world, yet you keep saying morgan has nothing to do with Sea world.


The article you linked earlier actually says that the WDCS don't know who owns Morgan or he buddy Adan, so how do you know?? (WDCS article
In addition, you still can't provide proof of a single expert changing their mind, let alone the 4 who you are claiming. 
If Free Morgan want a cetacean so much then why don't they rescue one themselves? There's plenty of them dying all over the world due to lack of decent rehab facilities.


----------



## em_40

yugimon121 said:


> You may think that, but most people who know even the slightest about orcas will agree that orcas shouldnt be in captivity. And before you say only those who know little believe that, I will refer back to the WDCS page


I'm not explicitly _for_ keeping Orca in captivity, because I think the care could be improved (mostly pools deepened), however she will very likely die in the wild. Aslong as she settles in at Loro Parque then her living with Orca in captivity is better than dying alone at sea.



> I think she should be given at the least the possibility of being released, even Keiko was who was in captivity for 20 years lasted for 6 months without human care. And at the very worst she wouldnt be with her familY pod, at the very worst. She would be put in a sea pen and taught to be independent.


Oh yey, 6 months? and he spent it looking for human companionship not Orca.



> Then why not give them to freemorgan to see if they can comfirm it's her family? As said before 4 changed their minds to agree for her release. Your acting like i am making this up, no I don't know why they changed but they did it regardless. You and devi are also forgetting that Loro Parque's orca's all belong to sea world, yet you keep saying morgan has nothing to do with Sea world.


Well because they don't feel the need to, the evidence was presented to the court and they decided she was better off in captivity.
Until I see evidence other than FreeMorgan claiming it, I don't believe 4 _have_ changed their mind. I would ofcourse be interested in seeing their revised view though, if you could find it.



> *cough cough* Harderwijk anyone? didnt see any orcas there!


Well atleast she had human company and a regular food supply, she probably can't hunt well at her age or by herself. 
Plus, she could have gone to Loro Parque sooner I believe, but FreeMorgan held back the court date so she was in that place longer than neccessary (Though I haven't read much on that, that might not be true)


----------



## Devi

em_40 said:


> Plus, she could have gone to Loro Parque sooner I believe, but FreeMorgan held back the court date so she was in that place longer than neccessary (Though I haven't read much on that, that might not be true)


Info with links here - Morgan

She was supposed to be sent in July 2011 but was held back by the court case until the end of November.


----------



## yugimon121

> I'm not explicitly _for_ keeping Orca in captivity, because I think the care could be improved (mostly pools deepened), however she will very likely die in the wild. Aslong as she settles in at Loro Parque then her living with Orca in captivity is better than dying alone at sea.


More experts agree to free morgan than there is to keeping her in captivity. You may have your opinion, I have mine. Though yours may be wrong, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.



> Oh yey, 6 months? and he spent it looking for human companionship not Orca.


Keiko did not die of starvation, he was able to hunt for himself. He also communicated with passing orca pods though never permanently stayed with any. Saddening yes, but he only wanted human comapnionship after 20 long years of them.



> Well because they don't feel the need to, the evidence was presented to the court and they decided she was better off in captivity.
> Until I see evidence other than FreeMorgan claiming it, I don't believe 4 _have_ changed their mind. I would ofcourse be interested in seeing their revised view though, if you could find it.


As said before, the court case ended because of some loophole in the law, not a personal decision by given evidence.



> Well atleast she had human company and a regular food supply, she probably can't hunt well at her age or by herself.
> Plus, she could have gone to Loro Parque sooner I believe, but FreeMorgan held back the court date so she was in that place longer than neccessary (Though I haven't read much on that, that might not be true)


That is still an entire year. It is almost undeniable that she doesnt have a pod, and they may have located it. If she was placed in a sea pen she would be able to be with them by now.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> More experts agree to free morgan than there is to keeping her in captivity. You may have your opinion, I have mine. Though yours may be wrong, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


Proof?




yugimon121 said:


> Keiko did not die of starvation, he was able to hunt for himself. He also communicated with passing orca pods though never permanently stayed with any. Saddening yes, but he only wanted human comapnionship after 20 long years of them.


No proof of this either, we're not sure that Keiko hunted and it's fairly certain that he didn't interact with Orca. He was seen in the vicinity of Orca, but not interacting or attempting to.




yugimon121 said:


> As said before, the court case ended because of some loophole in the law, not a personal decision by given evidence.


Again no proof. This article here says why the decision was made, along with others I have posted earlier - Morgan Move


----------



## yugimon121

> So you'd rather she lived a couple of months in the sea slowly dying than live in captivity? Besides Keiko was human fed pretty much the whole time he was 'wild', he was never a properly wild Orca.


He lived 6 months purely without human care, he didnt die of starvation either.



> The article you linked earlier actually says that the WDCS don't know who owns Morgan or he buddy Adan, so how do you know?? (WDCS article


The other 4 are on loan from Sea World, Adan's mother is Kohana, a sea world orca. And adan's father is Keto, who is related to kohana. Both belong to Sea World, so Sea World has the bigger ownership of Adan. 


> In addition, you still can't provide proof of a single expert changing their mind, let alone the 4 who you are claiming.
> If Free Morgan want a cetacean so much then why don't they rescue one themselves? There's plenty of them dying all over the world due to lack of decent rehab facilities.


...Want a cetacean? what? The point is is that Morgan is a WILD Orca, and she belongs in her true home of the sea.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> He lived 6 months purely without human care, he didnt die of starvation either.


This is the full report on his release - Keiko - to the wild and back
Skip to the part titled 'Did Keiko Feed' which explains that he was never witnessed hunting and was found with a totally empty stomach when he was begging for food around Norway. Despite knowing he was starving, people were prevented from feeding him for some time.




yugimon121 said:


> The other 4 are on loan from Sea World, Adan's mother is Kohana, a sea world orca. And adan's father is Keto, who is related to kohana. Both belong to Sea World, so Sea World has the bigger ownership of Adan.


That is not how the international breeding program works. Studbooks re held and animals born are sent to the best place for them. Loans take place when a certain place has been the home of an animal and intends to take them back in the future.


----------



## em_40

yugimon121 said:


> More experts agree to free morgan than there is to keeping her in captivity. You may have your opinion, I have mine. Though yours may be wrong, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


It is fact that the odds are against her. There is a small chance that she may reunite with her pod and survive but it is a _very_ small chance.

The opinion I expressed in the sentence was that aslong as she settles in, it is better for Morgan to live in captivity than die alone at sea, I don't believe many Orca experts or lovers would disagree, up to you if you do I guess...


----------



## yugimon121

> This is the full report on his release - Keiko - to the wild and back
> Skip to the part titled 'Did Keiko Feed' which explains that he was never witnessed hunting and was found with a totally empty stomach when he was begging for food around Norway. Despite knowing he was starving, people were prevented from feeding him for some time.


Well the Keiko website says this:
Keiko.com: The History of Keiko, the World's Most Famous Whale
"Keiko has been on his own for close to 60 days without food from humans. His lead veterinarian, and a variety of other orca scientists, come to the conclusion that Keiko has successfully fed himself in the wild, a major milestone in his journey to the wild."

and yours still says:
"It is possible that Keiko did not feed at all during the time he was independent of
human care. Newly captured killer whales are able to live without food for several
weeks before eating dead ﬁsh (Hoyt 1998). However, this seems unlikely given the
healthy appearance and behavior of Keiko when he was ﬁrst observed in Norway, as10 MARINE MAMMAL SCIENCE, VOL. **, NO. **, 2009
well as the fact that a veterinarian, based on girth measurements, blood samples and
photographs, concluded that the whale had fed (Cornell 2002)."


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Well the Keiko website says this:
> Keiko.com: The History of Keiko, the World's Most Famous Whale
> "Keiko has been on his own for close to 60 days without food from humans. His lead veterinarian, and a variety of other orca scientists, come to the conclusion that Keiko has successfully fed himself in the wild, a major milestone in his journey to the wild."
> 
> and yours still says:
> "It is possible that Keiko did not feed at all during the time he was independent of
> human care. Newly captured killer whales are able to live without food for several
> weeks before eating dead ﬁsh (Hoyt 1998). However, this seems unlikely given the
> healthy appearance and behavior of Keiko when he was ﬁrst observed in Norway, as10 MARINE MAMMAL SCIENCE, VOL. **, NO. **, 2009
> well as the fact that a veterinarian, based on girth measurements, blood samples and
> photographs, concluded that the whale had fed (Cornell 2002)."


The link I provided is the official independent scientific report on the release attempt. You have linked to an animal liberation site. Which one do you think will have less bias? Even if yours was true, 60 days is 2 months, not the 6 you claim.
As for the report, it proves what I said which is that Keiko was never observed hunting. It suggests he may have foraged behind wild pods, but not particularly successfully as when his stomach contents were investigated his stomach was entirely empty.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> The link I provided is the official independent scientific report on the release attempt. You have linked to an animal liberation site. Which one do you think will have less bias? Even if yours was true, 60 days is 2 months, not the 6 you claim.
> As for the report, it proves what I said which is that Keiko was never observed hunting. It suggests he may have foraged behind wild pods, but not particularly successfully as when his stomach contents were investigated his stomach was entirely empty.


The "60 days" is from a quote Dr. Lanny Cornell, Keikos vet, which was made 60 days after.
That was known, he stopped feeding a few days before his death. 
"Yesterday, Keiko exhibited signs of lethargy and lack of appetite. Consultation was continuous between his caretakers and Dr. Cornell. His behavior was still abnormal this morning and his respiratory rate was irregular, but, as is often the case with whales and dolphins in human care, these were advanced signs of his condition. With little warning, Keiko beached himself and died in the early evening local time"

Keiko will always be the symbol of how well captive orcas do in the wild, and I will not stop until morgan is reunited with her pod.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> The "60 days" is from a quote Dr. Lanny Cornell, Keikos vet, which was made 60 days after.
> That was known, he stopped feeding a few days before his death.
> "Yesterday, Keiko exhibited signs of lethargy and lack of appetite. Consultation was continuous between his caretakers and Dr. Cornell. His behavior was still abnormal this morning and his respiratory rate was irregular, but, as is often the case with whales and dolphins in human care, these were advanced signs of his condition. With little warning, Keiko beached himself and died in the early evening local time"


If you read the quote you took from the scientific paper, you will find it was Cornell who provided the information on Keiko possibly foraging. Not sure why you are talking about his death? I'm talking about his time in the wild, not his voluntary return to captivity from end of August 2002 until death. 



yugimon121 said:


> Keiko will always be the symbol of how well captive orcas do in the wild, and I will not stop until morgan is reunited with her pod.


'How well they do' for you is dying quickly without hunting, socialising or leaving people for more than a few weeks? Well that's pretty ridiculous.


----------



## yugimon121

> If you read the quote you took from the scientific paper, you will find it was Cornell who provided the information on Keiko possibly foraging. Not sure why you are talking about his death? I'm talking about his time in the wild, not his voluntary return to captivity from end of August 2002 until death.


When i was talking about his death, i was replying to your comments about his empty stomach, which I'm assuming was after he died.



> 'How well they do' for you is dying quickly without hunting, socialising or leaving people for more than a few weeks? Well that's pretty ridiculous.


Seeing that he spent most of his life in captivity, i would say its a MAJOR achievement. He socialized with other orcas and was given more freedom than any orca in captivity has. and as said before, pneumonia killed him, not starvation or whatever you want to point out. he travelled over 1000 miles on his own, which is huge. He also fed himself, whether it be by hunting or foraging he still managed to get food.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> When i was talking about his death, i was replying to your comments about his empty stomach, which I'm assuming was after he died.


Maybe read the paper I showed you? Then you won't have to assume and make mistakes.




yugimon121 said:


> Seeing that he spent most of his life in captivity, i would say its a MAJOR achievement. He socialized with other orcas and was given more freedom than any orca in captivity has. and as said before, pneumonia killed him, not starvation or whatever you want to point out. he travelled over 1000 miles on his own, which is huge. He also fed himself, whether it be by hunting or foraging he still managed to get food.


Considering he didn't socialise with other orcas and spent most of the time living in a small enclosure by choice, it's rather debatable that it was any different to captivity. It is unproven whether he fed himself or not, but he clearly didn't eat enough to survive long term as he had an empty stomach and when food was withdrawn by his carers he would beg at boats for food. 
Keiko is accepted as a failed release in the official paper and by using him as a 'good example' you are simply showing that Morgan is better off where she is.


----------



## yugimon121

> Considering he didn't socialise with other orcas and spent most of the time living in a small enclosure by choice, it's rather debatable that it was any different to captivity. It is unproven whether he fed himself or not, but he clearly didn't eat enough to survive long term as he had an empty stomach and when food was withdrawn by his carers he would beg at boats for food.
> Keiko is accepted as a failed release in the official paper and by using him as a 'good example' you are simply showing that Morgan is better off where she is.


he DID socialise with other orcas, he just never was accepted as a member of the pod. what? He was in the open waters, he traveled 1000 miles, how could he have done that in captivity?
He showed how even an orca who spent 20 years in cruelty was able to be released into the wild. It us not too late for morgan, we can still save her.
" However, this seems unlikely given the healthy appearance and behavior of Keiko when he was ﬁrst observed in Norway, as well as the fact that a veterinarian, based on girth measurements, blood samples and
photographs, concluded that the whale had fed"
it was concluded that he DID feed, even in your own link, why are you denying that?


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> he DID socialise with other orcas, he just never was accepted as a member of the pod.


Proof?



yugimon121 said:


> He showed how even an orca who spent 20 years in cruelty was able to be released into the wild. It us not too late for morgan, we can still save her.


Save her from what? Survival? 



yugimon121 said:


> " However, this seems unlikely given the healthy appearance and behavior of Keiko when he was ﬁrst observed in Norway, as well as the fact that a veterinarian, based on girth measurements, blood samples and
> photographs, concluded that the whale had fed"
> it was concluded that he DID feed, even in your own link, why are you denying that?


It was believed that he did feed on something, at some point, but it was never proven, hence my use of the term unproven. For all we know he'd been trailing fishing boats and being fed that way. They also state that it is possible he did not eat at all. Try reading the sentences around the ones you pick out.
The basic story is that we have no idea what he did in the 22 days he spent crossing the sea, it's a bit like cats that go missing from London and show up in Manchester.


----------



## yugimon121

> Proof?


He was seen interacting with wild orca pods but never joined one. capiche? 




> Save her from what? Survival?


From the hands that are man.



> It was believed that he did feed on something, at some point, but it was never proven, hence my use of the term unproven. For all we know he'd been trailing fishing boats and being fed that way. They also state that it is possible he did not eat at all. Try reading the sentences around the ones you pick out.


They have been tracking him, if he was being fed by fishing boats we would know.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> He was seen interacting with wild orca pods but never joined one. capiche?


Are you claiming to have seen this personally? Have you read it somewhere? Where are you getting it from?




yugimon121 said:


> They have been tracking him, if he was being fed by fishing boats we would know.


Read the paper - 
Keiko spent the majority of period 3 offshore, swimming from Iceland to Norway.
There was no visual contact between 2 August and 29 August when he was tracked
with the satellite transmitter.

They knew where he was through satellite tracking, but had no visual contact, so of course he could have been fed by humans. When he appeared in Norway he was begging from boats, so it would not be a big jump to suggest he had done that a few times before succesfully.


----------



## yugimon121

> Are you claiming to have seen this personally? Have you read it somewhere? Where are you getting it from?


He was with wild orcas before he left for orca, its ridiculous to say that no form of socializing occurred, or else they would have attacked him.

Keiko was in captivity since he was two, like morgan. But let's make one difference, lets free morgan before it becomes too hard.


I will no longer argue on Keiko, for this is for morgan.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> He was with wild orcas before he left for orca, its ridiculous to say that no form of socializing occurred, or else they would have attacked him.


Read the report. He was never seen with wild orca, he was seen fairly near them, but certainly not socialising.



yugimon121 said:


> I will no longer argue on Keiko, for this is for morgan.


Hehe, it's funny how you bring up all these outside topics and when you're shown to be wrong you say that it's off topic anyway. Maybe research them before you bring them up next time?


----------



## yugimon121

> Read the report. He was never seen with wild orca, he was seen fairly near them, but certainly not socialising.


from your report
"By 27 July he was regularly seen closer than 30 m from the closest wild whale. A
brief physical interaction was witnessed on 30 July, when Keiko dove among foraging whales and surfaced in very close proximity to three adult males and at least
two females or immature males. There was a splash from the tail of one of the wild
whales, which was swimming ventral side up, with his head below Keiko, while he
was at the surface. The splash was accompanied by a “startle” reaction from Keiko
who swam to the tracking boat, while one of the female/juvenile whales surfaced
after him. This was the only time Keiko was seen diving among killer whales and
the only physical interaction observed"
It is ridiculous to say he would not socialise with other orcas, just like these.



> Hehe, it's funny how you bring up all these outside topics and when you're shown to be wrong you say that it's off topic anyway. Maybe research them before you bring them up next time?


Actually No, if you wish to argue about Keiko be my guest to start a new thread and I will prove you wrong there as well. You will also notice i used Keiko originally as an example how though 20 years in captivity, he could survive in the open ocean. You decided to argue against it, so you technically turned it from Morgan to keiko. Did he live long in the wild no, but he did live and died from pneumonia.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> from your report
> "By 27 July he was regularly seen closer than 30 m from the closest wild whale. A
> brief physical interaction was witnessed on 30 July, when Keiko dove among foraging whales and surfaced in very close proximity to three adult males and at least
> two females or immature males. There was a splash from the tail of one of the wild
> whales, which was swimming ventral side up, with his head below Keiko, while he
> was at the surface. The splash was accompanied by a “startle” reaction from Keiko
> who swam to the tracking boat, while one of the female/juvenile whales surfaced
> after him. This was the only time Keiko was seen diving among killer whales and
> the only physical interaction observed"
> It is ridiculous to say he would not socialise with other orcas, just like these.


What that says is that a wild orca made a splash with his tail, which frightened Keiko, certainly not socialisation of any kind.





yugimon121 said:


> Did he live long in the wild no, but he did live and died from pneumonia.


Actually, if we're being accurate, it is suspected he died from pneumonia, but it hasn't been revealed if he had an autopsy and if so what it revealed.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> Info with links here - Morgan
> 
> She was supposed to be sent in July 2011 but was held back by the court case until the end of November.


The permit was gained on the condition she was released back to the ocean as soon as she was healthy, the DH declared her healthy less than 2 months after they brought her in. It was the DH that prevented her release as they had already involved Sea World. 

Had DH honored the permit she would have been in a sea pen by end of 2010 or sooner in Neetlje Jans....unfortunately she is worth an estimated $10,000,000 in captivity for performing and more importantly, breeding!


----------



## yugimon121

Jackie-K said:


> The permit was gained on the condition she was released back to the ocean as soon as she was healthy, the DH declared her healthy less than 2 months after they brought her in. It was the DH that prevented her release as they had already involved Sea World.
> 
> Had DH honored the permit she would have been in a sea pen by end of 2010 or sooner in Neetlje Jans....unfortunately she is worth an estimated $10,000,000 in captivity for performing and more importantly, breeding!


The permit! thank you! that was the agreement i was referring to before, That she would be released when healthy and would not go on public display.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> The permit was gained on the condition she was released back to the ocean as soon as she was healthy, the DH declared her healthy less than 2 months after they brought her in. It was the DH that prevented her release as they had already involved Sea World.
> 
> Had DH honored the permit she would have been in a sea pen by end of 2010 or sooner in Neetlje Jans....unfortunately she is worth an estimated $10,000,000 in captivity for performing and more importantly, breeding!


I'd love to see your breakdown of this number, what is it made up of? Also, do you have a copy of this permit so we can see the wording used?
I'd like to point out that even if she is worth this rather astounding number, I'd think the rarer cetaceans released by SOS would be worth considerably more, so why 'steal' Morgan and not the rest of them?


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> I'd love to see your breakdown of this number, what is it made up of? Also, do you have a copy of this permit so we can see the wording used?
> I'd like to point out that even if she is worth this rather astounding number, I'd think the rarer cetaceans released by SOS would be worth considerably more, so why 'steal' Morgan and not the rest of them?


The permit, much like the DNA tests are not public from what I know, but FreeMorgan and various news websites tell you the basics of the permit

From free morgan:
The Dutch government permitted her capture on the basis that once nursed back to health, the female orca, named Morgan by the dolphinarium, would be released back to the wild.

From Daily mail:
The Dutch government permit that originally approved her capture said the dolphinarium could hold her and restore her health so she could be released.

Also, It is possible the rarer cetaceans would not have good chances of survival in captivity, like most Porpoises. However, everyone knows that orcas survive in captivity, even in terrible conditions.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> The permit, much like the DNA tests are not public from what I know, but FreeMorgan and various news websites tell you the basics of the permit
> 
> From free morgan:
> The Dutch government permitted her capture on the basis that once nursed back to health, the female orca, named Morgan by the dolphinarium, would be released back to the wild.
> 
> From Daily mail:
> The Dutch government permit that originally approved her capture said the dolphinarium could hold her and restore her health so she could be released.
> 
> Also, It is possible the rarer cetaceans would not have good chances of survival in captivity, like most Porpoises. However, everyone knows that orcas survive in captivity, even in terrible conditions.


In other words, you don't know. Hopefully Jackie K might have a better idea, but otherwise it's just hearsay.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> In other words, you don't know. Hopefully Jackie K might have a better idea, but otherwise it's just hearsay.


In other words, I know what has been revealed.
I am not making it up, it has been revealed. So unless there's any proof to counter this as false, this is can be more or less counted as fact.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> In other words, I know what has been revealed.
> I am not making it up, it has been revealed. So unless there's any proof to counter this as false, this is can be more or less counted as fact.


The existence of said permit hasn't been 'revealed' at all, it has been said, by a clearly biased source, it is as good as being told by a bloke down the pub. The question I asked was bout the wording of the permit, which as I said, you don't know.
Having worked in wildlife rehab, what usually happens is that the animal is taken in for rescue and rehab, but this can change at any time based on the condition of the animal and the release prognosis. No reason to think that this case would be any different.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> The existence of said permit hasn't been 'revealed' at all, it has been said, by a clearly biased source, it is as good as being told by a bloke down the pub. The question I asked was bout the wording of the permit, which as I said, you don't know.
> Having worked in wildlife rehab, what usually happens is that the animal is taken in for rescue and rehab, but this can change at any time based on the condition of the animal and the release prognosis. No reason to think that this case would be any different.


Could the same not be said about DNA tests? since they are not public, we should assume that what they are saying is false. Yes I don't know the exact wording, but it's the contents of the permit that matters.
The case is different because Orcas are not allowed to be taken from the wild, if I remember correctly, which is why They needed a permit to take her in. The permit states that when she is healthy she must be released.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Yes I don't know the exact wording, but it's the contents of the permit that matters.


And the contents are what we don't know.



yugimon121 said:


> The case is different because Orcas are not allowed to be taken from the wild, if I remember correctly, which is why They needed a permit to take her in.


You need a permit to take any animal from the wild, that includes frogspawn from your garden pond as much as a blue whale from the sea, you also need a permit to move them across country borders, there's a Hamm thread somewhere that has a lot of info on CITES permits. There's a new facility opening in singapore this year that has caught 7 bottle nose dolphins from the wild specifically for captivity, it's perfectly legal and above board.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> I'd love to see your breakdown of this number, what is it made up of? Also, do you have a copy of this permit so we can see the wording used?
> I'd like to point out that even if she is worth this rather astounding number, I'd think the rarer cetaceans released by SOS would be worth considerably more, so why 'steal' Morgan and not the rest of them?


Trying to find out if the permit is public, will get back to you on that. As for the figures, that was Sea Worlds own quote a few months back, thats basically what any captive orca is worth to them not just Morgan.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> I'd think the rarer cetaceans released by SOS would be worth considerably more, so why 'steal' Morgan and not the rest of them?


Im sure some of the rarer ones would bring in money but the fact is not all cetaceans can survive captive and not all cetaceans can perform tricks. Im sure if Minke whales could do sommersaults and slide outs on command they would be captive as well, as it happens they are only good for Japanese scientific research...even though there is a worldwide ban on whaling!!! 
As for the Singapore dolphins, I dont know exactly where they got their dolphins from but the majority of captured wild dolphins sold to water circuses originate from the slaughters in Taiji and various other places (they save the 'pretty ones' and slaughter the rest to sell on as meat despite the science that the methylmercury levels are so high its dangerous to eat). According to the government in Taiji a live dolphin is worth around $150,000....more than enough cause for towns involved in these slaughters to continue. The whole industry is about money, not the welfare of the animals.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> Trying to find out if the permit is public, will get back to you on that. As for the figures, that was Sea Worlds own quote a few months back, thats basically what any captive orca is worth to them not just Morgan.


Do you have a link to the quote? I'm getting nothing.



Jackie-K said:


> Im sure some of the rarer ones would bring in money but the fact is not all cetaceans can survive captive and not all cetaceans can perform tricks. Im sure if Minke whales could do sommersaults and slide outs on command they would be captive as well, as it happens they are only good for Japanese scientific research...even though there is a worldwide ban on whaling!!!


Zoos aren't really all about tricks these days, it seems the animal that brings in the most cash to a zoo lately is the giant panda, and they tend to spend 99% of their lives asleep! But either way, they have rescued white sided dolphins and common dolphins, both of which have been kept in captivity.



Jackie-K said:


> As for the Singapore dolphins, I dont know exactly where they got their dolphins from but the majority of captured wild dolphins sold to water circuses originate from the slaughters in Taiji and various other places (they save the 'pretty ones' and slaughter the rest to sell on as meat despite the science that the methylmercury levels are so high its dangerous to eat). According to the government in Taiji a live dolphin is worth around $150,000....more than enough cause for towns involved in these slaughters to continue. The whole industry is about money, not the welfare of the animals.


Not to be supporting the singapore project, because I don't for a few reasons, but they caught the dolphins around the Solomon islands with speedboats and nets. 
I won't get into the Taiji hunt, but for those interested - Cove and Dolphinaria


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> Do you have a link to the quote? I'm getting nothing.


I dont save everything I read but heres something from CBS news SeaWorld Called Best Place for Tilikum - CBS News and this The show must go on: Seaworld orca shows to resume just three days after trainer was drowned by killer whale | Mail Online both from before Morgan was caught





Devi said:


> Zoos aren't really all about tricks these days, it seems the animal that brings in the most cash to a zoo lately is the giant panda, and they tend to spend 99% of their lives asleep! But either way, they have rescued white sided dolphins and common dolphins, both of which have been kept in captivity.


As far as orca are concerned were not talking about them living in a zoo environment, I dont have a problem with well run zoos especially if they have good conservation programs, we would have no California Condors left if it wasnt for the program at LA zoo a few years ago. The other big difference is at a well run zoo the animals (many of them...I dont agree with elephants or larger animals being in zoos but I also dont see how it would be 'in their interest' to be released, especially as many of them are born captive, Im all for sanctuaries though) can be housed in as near to natural environments as possible, enrichment is a big part of it and they dont have to perform tricks to get their food, they have the option of being inside or outside most of the time (unless inside housing is being cleaned), most zoos are closed to the public at certain times of the year (winter, even its only for a few days at a time they get a break from the public....loud noises, screaming kids etc). No theme park can even come close to replicating a natural environment for orca or smaller dolphins, theyre performing virtually every single day of the year, they are still using Kohana at Loro Parque (Ive seen updated photos) and she is about 12/13 months pregnant, splash downs and particularly slide outs and raising her fluke could potentially kill not only her calf but her as well...but according to Loro Parque she is one of their best performers...so they keep using her, slide outs, even for a minute or two puts a h*ll of a lot of unneccessary pressure on all the internal organs including a fetus, raising the tail fluke could potentially suffocate the fetus. I dont know if SW generally use their pregnant orca this late into a pregnancy but I know for a fact that Loro Parque do, makes no sense given what they are worth but then again LP doesnt have the room for the orca they already have, sending Morgan there was the only option for SW, they were only ever supposed to have 4, right now they have 6 and by September will have 7 so almost double in just 6 years and as of right now 2 of them cannot be left alone with the other 4 as they are attacked, and another one is 'iffy' but I think theyve stopped attacking him now, his entire body is covered in rakes.




Devi said:


> Not to be supporting the singapore project, because I don't for a few reasons, but they caught the dolphins around the Solomon islands with speedboats and nets.
> I won't get into the Taiji hunt, but for those interested - Cove and Dolphinaria


Heres a video from 2006 regarding the Solomon Island capture, just because they arent eating the meat (that I know of) doesnt mean the capture is any less horrendous, they still die from exhaustion after the chase, die in the nets and from what Ive read about half (or more) die within the first few days or in transit. The captures are still happening in various places around the world not just Taiji and the Solomons and its as brutal everywhere.
Wild-caught dolphins in the Solomon Islands - YouTube


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> I dont save everything I read but heres something from CBS news SeaWorld Called Best Place for Tilikum - CBS News and this The show must go on: Seaworld orca shows to resume just three days after trainer was drowned by killer whale | Mail Online both from before Morgan was caught


The first article there the man who claims Tilikum is worth millions also claims he knew the trainer killed in a past life. Does that sound like a sane guy to you? It's also rather far from proof of any kind, being he is an ex trainer who would have had no access to the documents concerning insurance, sales, or anything else.
The second article has a large list of how much it costs to keep an orca -

Keeping a whale is an expensive proposition. When Keiko, the orca that starred in the movie 'Free Willy,' came to the Oregon Coast Aquarium in the 1990s, it cost $7.8 million to construct his habitat.
Maintaining an aquarium for killer whales can cost $10,000 to $12,000 a month in electric bills, including keeping the water at 50 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit (10 to 13 Celsius).
Some parks have mortality insurance on the animals and can use them as collateral.
Feeding is the cheapest part, requiring about $35,000 a year for roughly 100lbs of fish a day.

How good is your maths? Cause that would suggest that keeping a single animal for a few years would COST 10 million. 

On the rest of your post, I was explaining that animals other than orca are probably worth more than orca (as in the many animals released by sos) and you replied by talking about how you personally don't agree with orca in captivity, it doesn't have anything to do with my point. 
Secondly, I was explaining to yugimon how it is not illegal to capture animals from the wild for zoos, your video further proves that point, so um, thanks.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> The first article there the man who claims Tilikum is worth millions also claims he knew the trainer killed in a past life. Does that sound like a sane guy to you? It's also rather far from proof of any kind, being he is an ex trainer who would have had no access to the documents concerning insurance, sales, or anything else.


Maybe you should look up Jeff Ventre!! He worked with DB at SW...that was his 'past life' he was referring to. This is one of the problems Devi, people arguing this whole thing with Morgan and general orca captivity dont even bother to look up the names of..for example the experts of the Orca Coalition. The Orca Coalition is fobbed off as being a bunch of animal rights nuts when they are actually a team made up of orca specialists, marine mammal vets, lawyers and with support from other experts in the field!!! Names like Ingrid Visser, Terry Hardie, Paul Spong, Cousteau, its the typical 'pro cap' arguement, if you think your losing the debate just act like the experts arent experts at all!!! doesnt take away the fact that they are!!


Devi said:


> The second article has a large list of how much it costs to keep an orca -
> 
> Keeping a whale is an expensive proposition. When Keiko, the orca that starred in the movie 'Free Willy,' came to the Oregon Coast Aquarium in the 1990s, it cost $7.8 million to construct his habitat.
> Maintaining an aquarium for killer whales can cost $10,000 to $12,000 a month in electric bills, including keeping the water at 50 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit (10 to 13 Celsius).
> Some parks have mortality insurance on the animals and can use them as collateral.
> Feeding is the cheapest part, requiring about $35,000 a year for roughly 100lbs of fish a day.
> 
> How good is your maths? Cause that would suggest that keeping a single animal for a few years would COST 10 million.


My math is fine, the bulk of the payment for Keiko's sea pen was privately funded (not by SW although I dont know if they actually put anything towards it), much of it came from public donations and various other sources, you can hardly include this in the figures as it was a one off.

As for the rest, average the lifespan of captive orca, probably around 15 years, average around 6 orca per tank and it comes to less than a million per orca...add maybe another mill on for vets fees, teeth drilling and daily flushing (although this is usually done by the regular staff not vets) daily anitbiotics and for some a lifetime of anti depressants, yeah...around 2 mill total per orca in its lifetime. Tili's insured for 5 mill but the females (in any industry) are generally worth more if they can be bred.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> Maybe you should look up Jeff Ventre!! He worked with DB at SW...that was his 'past life' he was referring to. This is one of the problems Devi, people arguing this whole thing with Morgan and general orca captivity dont even bother to look up the names of..for example the experts of the Orca Coalition. The Orca Coalition is fobbed off as being a bunch of animal rights nuts when they are actually a team made up of orca specialists, marine mammal vets, lawyers and with support from other experts in the field!!! Names like Ingrid Visser, Terry Hardie, Paul Spong, Cousteau, its the typical 'pro cap' arguement, if you think your losing the debate just act like the experts arent experts at all!!! doesnt take away the fact that they are!!


An ex trainer is not an expert in any meaning of the word. It said in the article he was an ex trainer, I am aware of that, but why does that make him an expert on the sale price of an orca or the insurance currently on him? If you wish to make a claim that an animal is worth a certain amount you need to find a source that can back up your claim.




Jackie-K said:


> My math is fine, the bulk of the payment for Keiko's sea pen was privately funded (not by SW although I dont know if they actually put anything towards it), much of it came from public donations and various other sources, you can hardly include this in the figures as it was a one off.


The quote does not mention the sea pen at all, which was in iceland, not Oregon. Sea world was also not involved in the quote either, so not sure your point there.
What it does say is that an enclosure was built for a single orca, at a cost of 7.8 million dollars. At the lower cost of running the tank we have £120,000 per year, for your estimate of 15 years that is 1.8 million. Food comes to 525,000. 
Ignoring any other costs like cleaning, water, staff payments, vet costs, transport, tank repair, etc, we now have 10,125,000. 
All this and keiko arrived there in 1996, so we add a lot on for inflation over the 16 years it has been since.
Now for more than one animal, we can't just chuck a bunch of them in a tank made for one, we have to provide each animal with the same amount of space, so you need to add that on too. 
Its pretty clear that 10 million today wouldn't cover it.


----------



## yugimon121

> An ex trainer is not an expert in any meaning of the word. It said in the article he was an ex trainer, I am aware of that, but why does that make him an expert on the sale price of an orca or the insurance currently on him? If you wish to make a claim that an animal is worth a certain amount you need to find a source that can back up your claim.


He said that you decided to ignore the fact that the Orca coalition is made up of many experts (like you did there) , he didn't say Jeff was an expert.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> He said that you decided to ignore the fact that the Orca coalition is made up of many experts (like you did there) , he didn't say Jeff was an expert.


What's that got to do with the price of fish? The quote was by Jeff Ventre, not the orca coalition, who fyi, even said in the article that he was guessing. The point being, it is not proof Morgan or any orca is worth 10 million.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> What's that got to do with the price of fish? The quote was by Jeff Ventre, not the orca coalition, who fyi, even said in the article that he was guessing. The point being, it is not proof Morgan or any orca is worth 10 million.


Its a female Orca, I was expecting a much higher price. Seeing how much customers they bring in, as well as that it can breed and produce more orcas.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> Its a female Orca, I was expecting a much higher price. Seeing how much customers they bring in, as well as that it can breed and produce more orcas.


If you believe that is true then find proof. Otherwise you're just plucking numbers out the air and the whole argument is pretty much void.


----------



## em_40

How are you even estimating the worth of that whale?
Insurance if it dies? the cost someone would buy it for? the price someone would pay for it's young? the income it would bring to the park it's at? or all of the above combined?

I would have thought that at some point the more Orca you have the profit margin would decrease, as you still have to feed that extra Orca and give it vetinary treatment etc. however, it's not going to bring that many more people to the park, if you have enough orca to do a show a day (or whatever it is they do), which they did before Morgan, how does she add custom? the vistors don't care whther they see her or some other orca?


----------



## Gar1on

Might I suggest forwarding the link to this thread to those able to make the decision to release Morgan? Reading this debate from beginning to end is enough to make anyone release the Orca if only to stop the arguing...

In all seriousness though, I am rather split on this one - while I disagree with the captivity of these animals, one has to take into account whether the benefits of releasing Morgan outweigh the risks; indeed, outweigh them considerably. Whilst captivity is far from ideal, this animal is now captive whether we like it or not and I do not know whether (if I was the one who had to make the decision) I would be willing to put the life of the animal at risk by attempting a release. 

Do we keep the animal in captivity and risk stress and possible unhappiness (might I iterate that this is a possibility, not a given) or do we release it into the wild and risk it being rejected by its pod and therefore being killed, or dying as a result of inability to hunt etc.

I'm looking at this from a completely 50/50 point of view, because the above is simply a question I cannot answer! I guess my point is that while we all have separate areas of opinion when it comes to this matter, all opinions have equal validity although some of you might not want to see this.

Anyway, it seems, from what I have read thus far it is now down to the courts? So anything we say or do will have little impact.


----------



## Jackie-K

Gar1on said:


> Might I suggest forwarding the link to this thread to those able to make the decision to release Morgan? Reading this debate from beginning to end is enough to make anyone release the Orca if only to stop the arguing...
> 
> In all seriousness though, I am rather split on this one - while I disagree with the captivity of these animals, one has to take into account whether the benefits of releasing Morgan outweigh the risks; indeed, outweigh them considerably. Whilst captivity is far from ideal, this animal is now captive whether we like it or not and I do not know whether (if I was the one who had to make the decision) I would be willing to put the life of the animal at risk by attempting a release.
> 
> Do we keep the animal in captivity and risk stress and possible unhappiness (might I iterate that this is a possibility, not a given) or do we release it into the wild and risk it being rejected by its pod and therefore being killed, or dying as a result of inability to hunt etc.
> 
> I'm looking at this from a completely 50/50 point of view, because the above is simply a question I cannot answer! I guess my point is that while we all have separate areas of opinion when it comes to this matter, all opinions have equal validity although some of you might not want to see this.
> 
> Anyway, it seems, from what I have read thus far it is now down to the courts? So anything we say or do will have little impact.


Y;know I see where your coming from. there was always going to be a risk releasing Morgan and captivity was a last resort, no one ever said otherwise. To understand the entire plan you need to have read through the court documents (which I have but that doesnt mean I can publish them...its not my call and they were sent to me by someone present at the hearings....if someone asks me not to 'repost' then I wont). Bottom line is 'why did it take one judge to court order DH to allow OC to continue recordings and collect DNA samples', the only answer anyone has been able to give is that SW was involved from day 1 (fact!!) why wasnt Morgan allowed to spend time with other cetaceans despite being court ordered to? answer....because the only other cetaceans at DH were other dolphins that have herpes (fact....Devi...read the court papers, its all in there). 

Morgan was at risk whether she was sold into a water circus or released, at no point was anyone EVER going to just toss her back into the sea. According to DH...they have publicly admitted they have sent Morgan to LP knowing full well (google it Devi....its no secret) that the existing orca are extremely aggressive!!!

Morgans relatives were located, 4 of the 7 'experts' paid for by DH switched sides and went with OC when her relatives were found.

I hope (devi) you are happy now, people are still trying to save this orca from a life of hell but hey....you pro caps have got her, she WILL make millions for SW and LP through breeding, she really is shit at performing though...sorry, no links...just know that for a fact!!!


----------



## selina20

What i dont get is there is more than one captive whale. So why dont they try and create a pod of captive whales and release them together as a pod?????

I strongly believe in this case they should let nature take its course. If he gets rejected by his pod surely that is far better than him living a life in a huge fishtank with a price tag on his head. I do not agree with these whales being kept in captivity for the sake of it.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> Y;know I see where your coming from. there was always going to be a risk releasing Morgan and captivity was a last resort, no one ever said otherwise. To understand the entire plan you need to have read through the court documents (which I have but that doesnt mean I can publish them...its not my call and they were sent to me by someone present at the hearings....if someone asks me not to 'repost' then I wont). Bottom line is 'why did it take one judge to court order DH to allow OC to continue recordings and collect DNA samples', the only answer anyone has been able to give is that SW was involved from day 1 (fact!!) why wasnt Morgan allowed to spend time with other cetaceans despite being court ordered to? answer....because the only other cetaceans at DH were other dolphins that have herpes (fact....Devi...read the court papers, its all in there).
> 
> Morgan was at risk whether she was sold into a water circus or released, at no point was anyone EVER going to just toss her back into the sea. According to DH...they have publicly admitted they have sent Morgan to LP knowing full well (google it Devi....its no secret) that the existing orca are extremely aggressive!!!
> 
> Morgans relatives were located, 4 of the 7 'experts' paid for by DH switched sides and went with OC when her relatives were found.
> 
> I hope (devi) you are happy now, people are still trying to save this orca from a life of hell but hey....you pro caps have got her, she WILL make millions for SW and LP through breeding, she really is shit at performing though...sorry, no links...just know that for a fact!!!


Hehe, why are you posting in reply to someone else yet putting my name in it? Rather childish. But either way, most of the things in this post have been disproved earlier in the thread. I strongly doubt you have access to top secret documents that prove everything you say yet can't show them to anyone in fear of death. If such documents existed then one of the many anti captivity organisations would have used them in court or even published them since, yet they haven't. Why is that? Are PETA secretly being paid off by evil seaworld executives? Rather unlikely.


----------



## em_40

Well.... I found the information about the 4 who 'switched sides'...

well 2 who said that, if she was from P pod and they had been spotted near the coast then yes a release may now be feasable and the other 2 said that they wouldn't change their stance legally but the one thought Morgan should have been put down on-site (but as she wasn't Loro Parque is probably the best option) the other said that they thought she should go into a sea pen with human care which he had already said in his initial report.

http://janvantwillert.files.wordpre...arte-lockyer-2011-support-morgans-release.pdf
-
(you have to scroll through a lot)

http://www.marineanimalwelfare.com/images/Wetenschappelijk_rapport_orka_Morgan(1).pdf

(initial report to compare to)


----------



## yugimon121

em_40 said:


> Well.... I found the information about the 4 who 'switched sides'...
> 
> well 2 who said that, if she was from P pod and they had been spotted near the coast then yes a release may now be feasable and the other 2 said that they wouldn't change their stance legally but the one thought Morgan should have been put down on-site (but as she wasn't Loro Parque is probably the best option) the other said that they thought she should go into a sea pen with human care which he had already said in his initial report.
> 
> http://janvantwillert.files.wordpre...arte-lockyer-2011-support-morgans-release.pdf
> -
> (you have to scroll through a lot)
> 
> http://www.marineanimalwelfare.com/images/Wetenschappelijk_rapport_orka_Morgan(1).pdf
> 
> (initial report to compare to)


How'd you find it? ive been looking for ages with nothing!
This not only proves that they did indeed change their mind (only 2 officially changed their mind, but still) but that they agreed that her family has been found.


----------



## em_40

''Although most matches were found to group P, not all of Morgan’s calls matched calls in the catalog ascribed to group P. Group P is also reported to produce sounds which were not identified in Morgan’s repertoire. *Thus, we cannot conclude that group P is Morgan’s natal pod*, but we do consider it *likely* that Morgan is either from group P *or* a group closely related to group P.''

It's still far from 100%, we've been acknowedging all along that her extended family may have been found. 

The only thing different really is that they now believe that her exended family may come close enough to land to make it feasable for her to be introduced to them. Before they thought that even if they found them they were way out at sea so wouldn't be possible.



[The kitten closed my other tabs jumping on my keyboard, I'll go get the report I got that quote from again]

ETA: http://janvantwillert.files.wordpre...ons_of_morgan_acoustic_repertoire-final-2.pdf


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi I mentioned your name to say it was all in the court papers, nothing childish about it, I dont have a lot of time right now so was just added to the other quote.

I woudnt call any of the documentation 'top secret' but its not necessarily all over the 'net and Ive been asked not to do this, if that makes me look bad thats fine, Im not going to do anything Im specifically asked not to do. I know a few people that were either present in court, had a Dutch contact in court and currently a couple of people who can get up to date info on Morgan who dont want that info on the 'net. Tenerife is a small island, 'everyone knows everyone' type thing and with my family living there for years Im still in contact with friends there.

In regards to Morgans call signs, she was partly matched to N pod with more matches to P pod. All pods have their own dialect so to find matches would mean that there are relatives there, they didnt know how closely related but most likely aunts/cousins.

Which brings to another question that came up in the last page or so about 'making a pod and releasing them together', the captive orca are from various areas, they dont speak the same dialect which is part of the aggression problems with some of them, one in particular (I think its Kasatka but would have to double check), wont accept any orca that doesnt 'speak her dialect'. Some of the orca only eat fish, others eat other mammals although if captive industry were to start feeding the proper diet I would imagine this would put some people off going, I mean its 'okay to feed them dead fish but not throw them the odd seal or penguin'.

Keiko had 2 sea pens, the first in Oregan cost 7.2 mill and was mainly funded by private donations, he spent about 2 years here before going to a sea pen in Iceland as he needed to be brought back to health, learn to catch live fish again (which he did) and gradually decrease human contact which was never completely done here.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> Keiko had 2 sea pens, the first in Oregan cost 7.2 mill and was mainly funded by private donations, he spent about 2 years here before going to a sea pen in Iceland as he needed to be brought back to health, learn to catch live fish again (which he did) and gradually decrease human contact which was never completely done here.


This is her tank at Oregon -

flickr linky

As you can see, it has walls and glass and is not in the sea. I'm struggling to see how you are defining it as a sea pen? An anti captivity campaign group says -

Keiko Moves to Oregon

In 1996, Keiko was moved to a large tank at the Oregon Coast Aquarium with natural seawater from a nearby bay. Strenuous efforts began to rehabilitate him by solving his ongoing skin problems, and giving him ample nourishment in order to bring him up to the normal weight of a male orca of his age. His skin lesions cleared up. In 1997, live fish were introduced to Keiko so that he could learn how to hunt on his own. He did not eat the fish, but instead brought them to his trainers. In August, he caught and ate his first fish. By the following June, he weighed 9,620 pounds. A goal was set to release him into a pen in the North Atlantic by 1998.


----------



## yugimon121

Not about morgan but more about cetaceans being denied freedom..victory!
Dolphins to Be Set Free | PETA.org


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> This is her tank at Oregon -
> 
> flickr linky
> 
> As you can see, it has walls and glass and is not in the sea. I'm struggling to see how you are defining it as a sea pen? An anti captivity campaign group says -
> 
> Keiko Moves to Oregon
> 
> In 1996, Keiko was moved to a large tank at the Oregon Coast Aquarium with natural seawater from a nearby bay. Strenuous efforts began to rehabilitate him by solving his ongoing skin problems, and giving him ample nourishment in order to bring him up to the normal weight of a male orca of his age. His skin lesions cleared up. In 1997, live fish were introduced to Keiko so that he could learn how to hunt on his own. He did not eat the fish, but instead brought them to his trainers. In August, he caught and ate his first fish. By the following June, he weighed 9,620 pounds. A goal was set to release him into a pen in the North Atlantic by 1998.


HIS 'tank' had running sea water through and was the first stage in his release to get him back to health...its been referred to as his first 'sea pen'...so what exactly is your point?

Aside from that, here is the original footage on the 'local' news when Morgan was first seen in the Waddenzee. 
GPTV: Orka in waddenzee gefilmd - YouTube

Translation is basically...."For the first time since 1947 on Wednesday a live orca found in the Wadden Sea. The animal was discovered between Lauwersoog and Ameland from a ship of the Ministry of Agriculture. The attenuated animal i...s caught and the Dolphinarium in Harderwijk. Thursday morning the animal has a few pounds of fish eaten. The 2 to 3 years old Orca 3.5 meters for 24 hours a day. Medical nothing seems to matter with the animal, but probably it is not long enough or eaten. Bert Plat Rings, the spokesman said that the Dolphinarium Dolphins Trainers constantly with her in the water to the Orca acclimate to its environment and to ensure that they are not against the side of the basin clashes.
If the animal regain strength, it is put back into the sea."
Off to bed here"

So, spokesman for Dolphinarium Harderwijk said she would be returned to the sea when she regained her strength. According to DH she had done this within 2 months, unfortunately by then Sea World were well and truly involved and needing 'new blood' for their breeding program.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> HIS 'tank' had running sea water through and was the first stage in his release to get him back to health...its been referred to as his first 'sea pen'...so what exactly is your point?


Hehe, if sea water makes it a sea pen then half the cetaceans in captivity are in sea pens, including Morgan.



Jackie-K said:


> Aside from that, here is the original footage on the 'local' news when Morgan was first seen in the Waddenzee.
> GPTV: Orka in waddenzee gefilmd - YouTube
> 
> Translation is basically...."For the first time since 1947 on Wednesday a live orca found in the Wadden Sea. The animal was discovered between Lauwersoog and Ameland from a ship of the Ministry of Agriculture. The attenuated animal i...s caught and the Dolphinarium in Harderwijk. Thursday morning the animal has a few pounds of fish eaten. The 2 to 3 years old Orca 3.5 meters for 24 hours a day. Medical nothing seems to matter with the animal, but probably it is not long enough or eaten. Bert Plat Rings, the spokesman said that the Dolphinarium Dolphins Trainers constantly with her in the water to the Orca acclimate to its environment and to ensure that they are not against the side of the basin clashes.
> If the animal regain strength, it is put back into the sea."
> Off to bed here"
> 
> So, spokesman for Dolphinarium Harderwijk said she would be returned to the sea when she regained her strength. According to DH she had done this within 2 months, unfortunately by then Sea World were well and truly involved and needing 'new blood' for their breeding program.


If the animal was deemed in the right condition and situation to be put back in the sea then it would have, nobody has ever denied that. Things have changed.
Now, do you want to prove this 'sinister plot' by sea world?


----------



## Jackie-K

The whole point is it was 'the first stage of Keiko's release', what were they supposed to do just dump him in the ocean with no rehab?

Its no secret about Sea Worlds involvement and what they wanted, Keissling was the same later on. DH declared Morgan fit and healthy by August 2010, no secret about that either as they 'declared' it to the Dutch press, at that point plans should have been in progress to rehab and release but instead plans were made for her to stay captive and then the experts were blocked from gaining the information they needed to work on getting her released, if there was no alterior motive by either DH or SW then why stop them recording her vocals and collecting DNA? had they allowed them full access to do this it woud have quashed any arguements in keeping Morgan captive if they couldnt locate any relatives and considering LP's entire reasoning for their 'research' on Morgan is how orca communicate (keeping in mind they had to prove they needed Morgan for research purposes in court, not for commercial use). LP's comminication 'research' is as asinine as research done last year that cost millions, on monkeys to 'see if they get stressed living in a laboratory'.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> if there was no alterior motive by either DH or SW then why stop them recording her vocals and collecting DNA? .


They didn't. Dr. Filipa Samarra who was recording her at DH is now recording her at LP - Loro Parque Blog


----------



## Shell195

Im not sure if this has been mentioned but heres another poor Orca in need of help 
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Save-Lolita-Now/?cid=FB_Share

http://www.freewebs.com/tokitaestruth/


----------



## yugimon121

Shell195 said:


> Im not sure if this has been mentioned but heres another poor Orca in need of help
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Save-Lolita-Now/?cid=FB_Share
> 
> ~Tokitae's Truth~ | The Stuff People don't want You to Know


forwarded and signed.


----------



## Jackie-K

hmmm added a post this morning but its gone. 

Theres an update for Morgan, The EU courts have agreed to investigate Morgans case.


----------



## Jackie-K

*Its official....could be back in court as early as July
*

*The Orca Coalition have been granted an appeal for the orca Morgan, who was transfered to Loro Parque last year, after the 2 court hearings in Holland. The appeal is important, not only for poor Morgan who is now being taught tricks as her contribution to the court agreed "science and education" objective, but to any other cetacean that European dolphinariums "rescue". It is vital the legal basis ...of the EC directives and guidence are scrutinised. This appeal has to be funded from Morgans friends, we need help, so I would appreciate it if you can share this message and raise awareness to a new and wider audience, and give where possible. Thank you. http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orkacoalitie.nl%2F2012%2F04%2F27%2Foproep-aan-morgans-trouwe-supporters%2F&act=url
*


----------



## Jackie-K

Another update for Morgan.
Back in court: orca Morgan needs your help | Orka Coalitie


----------



## yugimon121

News on Morgan
She is now deaf apparently, which explains it all.
This is how she got separated and wasn't with her family, thank you Sea World and LP for discovering this one year later,this will surely prove you only want to do whats best for the multi-million value cetacean in the upcoming court case.
Come on Sea World, we know you are greedy liars, but you shouldnt change your story to something as silly as that, did you not say she communicated with other orcas? and how exactly are you training her without sound, surely it did not take one whole year for the trainers to realise something was up. Not to forget she has been examined by many vets, and will be again.
Do morgan justice judges, send her home.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> News on Morgan
> She is now deaf apparently, which explains it all.
> This is how she got separated and wasn't with her family, thank you Sea World and LP for discovering this one year later,this will surely prove you only want to do whats best for the multi-million value cetacean in the upcoming court case.
> Come on Sea World, we know you are greedy liars, but you shouldnt change your story to something as silly as that, did you not say she communicated with other orcas? and how exactly are you training her without sound, surely it did not take one whole year for the trainers to realise something was up. Not to forget she has been examined by many vets, and will be again.
> Do morgan justice judges, send her home.


That's really interesting. Do you have the link where loro parque have said this? Or whichever vet diagnosed? I've googled but only finding people denying the 'claim', not the claim itself.
It would certainly explain her being alone, and may be treatable. If she was it would certainly suggest being deafened at some point, maybe a degenerative deafness? Since she had similar vocal patterns to certain orca in her found area but they weren't the same.
As for training, cetaceans are trained by arm signals and do not use vocal commands.


----------



## Jackie-K

Been hearing about this all weekend, it was originally reported in a Dutch newspaper, havent been able to find anything in Spanish yet or English (only what is already said in the Dutch paper).

Apparantly, according to SW their own vets have examined her and found her to be deaf, they....from what Im told, have refused to allow an independant specialist to check her out!!! 

There were no hearing issues ever noted in the 15 months she was at DH where she 'apparantly' underwent full health checks and SW has used this 'arguement' in the past to prevent a cetacean from being released.

As already mentioned about her vocal matches (this really was a positive, not a negative..having 7 of 9 call signs) but this would indicate (if she is now deaf) she had hearing prior to capture, if she was deaf then she wouldnt have matched any call signs. If she is deaf (I dont see why SW would have a problem with an independant specialist if they have nothing to hide...in fact I would have thought they would be inviting them in to prove their 'theory') then it could be from antibiotics or infection.
If its genetic...the next batch of tests will be to see if she is sterile...and if she is, wonder what SW and LP will do with an orca who already has proven is no good in the shows and cant breed!!! She'll end up like Junior!!


----------



## Devi

Jackie, do you have a link to the dutch article? Also worth pointing out that full health checks don't normally test for disability like hearing or sight as that is assumed to be normal. Animal hearing tests are also notoriously difficult, the current advice to check if a kitten or puppy is deaf is to clap behind it and if it turns it heard you, not exactly scientific!
As you say, she must have had some hearing at some point in order to vocalise, she's been documented as learning the language of her current tankmates, which surely must need some kind of hearing?
It all sounds a bit odd to me.


----------



## yugimon121

Devi said:


> Jackie, do you have a link to the dutch article? Also worth pointing out that full health checks don't normally test for disability like hearing or sight as that is assumed to be normal. Animal hearing tests are also notoriously difficult, the current advice to check if a kitten or puppy is deaf is to clap behind it and if it turns it heard you, not exactly scientific!
> As you say, she must have had some hearing at some point in order to vocalise, she's been documented as learning the language of her current tankmates, which surely must need some kind of hearing?
> It all sounds a bit odd to me.


I'm not sure about Jackie, but this was my first source of the knowledge (The people leading the court case), followed by a few searches on google 
Orca Coalition stunned about deafness Morgan | Orka Coalitie
It is highly suspicious and unlikely, and too coincidental to just be discovered following the opening of the new court case.


----------



## Devi

yugimon121 said:


> I'm not sure about Jackie, but this was my first source of the knowledge (The people leading the court case), followed by a few searches on google
> Orca Coalition stunned about deafness Morgan | Orka Coalitie
> It is highly suspicious and unlikely, and too coincidental to just be discovered following the opening of the new court case.


I have found that and a few others, but there's no mention of a source, all of them say that either sea world or LP say she's deaf, but neither site (sw or lp) mentions it, and the story changes from site to site. 
Can anyone find out if this actually has some truth behind it?


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> I have found that and a few others, but there's no mention of a source, all of them say that either sea world or LP say she's deaf, but neither site (sw or lp) mentions it, and the story changes from site to site.
> Can anyone find out if this actually has some truth behind it?


Ill get the link in a minute but like I said its in Dutch...there is some controversy over the people involved in the 'conversation' at DH 'accidentally' allowed it to 'leak out to the press'.

In the meantime here is a link for Sully, the pilot whale who just died at SW San Diego...obviously we will never know the actual cause of death but from my own sources there is no reason to think its not sunburn related, Ive heard he had 3rd degree burns on his body from floating too much. Sully is the one that SW also said was deaf after he was 'rescued' 2 years ago.
Op-Ed: Pilot whale 'Sully' dies at SeaWorld San Diego (Includes interview) 

Here is the Dutch link, there is a video also floating around from an interview with someone from DH, obviously I dont speak Dutch so Im having a friend give me a summary of what the guy says, from what I was told he is saying that it is unlikely that Morgan is deaf. Orka Morgan mogelijk doof - Binnenland | Het laatste nieuws uit Nederland leest u op Telegraaf.nl [binnenland]

One other thing I would like to add, I know from animals Ive worked with in the past, if you know what your looking for, total deafness is not that difficult to diagnose, at all...however partial deafness can be tricky but Ive worked with many vets and specialists who have told me that they can usually figure it out pretty quickly. Mostly ones Ive realized myself have been dogs and cats, didnt really involve clapping behind them either as they can usually either see movement behind them or feel something but if you get a little creative it can be done easily enough.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> Here is the Dutch link, there is a video also floating around from an interview with someone from DH, obviously I dont speak Dutch so Im having a friend give me a summary of what the guy says, from what I was told he is saying that it is unlikely that Morgan is deaf. Orka Morgan mogelijk doof - Binnenland | Het laatste nieuws uit Nederland leest u op Telegraaf.nl [binnenland]


Yeah.. that says that someone in LP says Morgan is deaf, so basically still no source. A look into the paper itself suggest it is prone to sensationalist gossip style stories. Unless LP confirm this or Dr Samarra who is currently studying Morgans vocalisations, then I'm guessing it's made up.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> Yeah.. that says that someone in LP says Morgan is deaf, so basically still no source. A look into the paper itself suggest it is prone to sensationalist gossip style stories. Unless LP confirm this or Dr Samarra who is currently studying Morgans vocalisations, then I'm guessing it's made up.


This is from DH forum/website were van Elk who worked with Morgan at DH says he doesnt think she is deaf, or basically if she is its happened since she was captive. Orka Morgan mogelijk doof
The other thing that keeps coming up is that if she is deaf this could be why she was 'lost', obviously Im not going to say this isnt a possiblitity however I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the amazing ability and loyalty that orca have shown with disabled pod members, they dont tend to leave them/abandon them, orca are one of the few species that take more care of them. Just a couple of examples is Delphina, a juvenile who got lost, her pod all but sent out a search party for her when she got lost in the reeds, Moby Doll who was supported at the surface when he was shot and harpooned, they supported him so he could breath and various other video floating around that show similar actions. Bottlenose, Risso's dolphins are renowned for their assisting other dolphins, young grey whales, even humans, orca are dolphins, no reason to think that her pod would abandon her.

There is a theory that some cetacea strand due to deafness, the dolphins off Peru are being studied to see if this was a cause (theyre going between this and a virus last I heard), but this cause of deafness is generally military or drilling events in their habitat and its usually mass strandings (there was a young orca washed up a few months ago that shows signs of being killed by a blast...she wasnt hit but the damage from the sound waves caused ruptures on her body and she was covered in blood...she was a Southern Resident from...I think from L pod which are endangered).

Anyways, will post any updates.


----------



## Devi

Jackie-K said:


> This is from DH forum/website were van Elk who worked with Morgan at DH says he doesnt think she is deaf, or basically if she is its happened since she was captive. Orka Morgan mogelijk doof


The link you posted is a fan site for DH, the tagline reads - by and for regular visitors of Harderwijk dolphinarium. It is not DH's website. It is also copied and pasted directly from the article you posted before.


----------



## Jackie-K

Devi said:


> The link you posted is a fan site for DH, the tagline reads - by and for regular visitors of Harderwijk dolphinarium. It is not DH's website. It is also copied and pasted directly from the article you posted before.


 I know...but this is all there is, no one can find anything else....have you seen the video? Thought I posted it but maybe not...obviously its in Dutch (I dont know if you understand Dutch)...Ill post it in a minute.


----------



## Jackie-K

Here is the video, Im having problems with the sound on my computer with this so I dont know if its my comp or the vid. The guy being interviewed is Neils Van Elk, he basically is saying on the one hand he doesnt believe Morgan is/was deaf...then he says if she is deaf this could be why she was 'lost/abandoned', bit of a contradiction in itself. I dont speak Dutch at all so can only go by what Ive been told, Ive sent to a friend who is German/English speaking who has a close friend who is Dutch/German speaking!!!:gasp: Omroep Gelderland - Nieuws - Loro Parque: orka Morgan mogelijk doof


----------



## Jackie-K

Also wanted to post this. David Kirby's book Death At SeaWorld is due for release (in UK, Canada and US) July 17th. I know there are some people here who are either 'on the fence' or are 'pro cap' in here, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but if you want to know what really goes on in the cetacea captive industry, this book pretty much blows the lid on everything. Dont have to take my word on it, just look at the names on the comments, some of THE top cetacea specialists IN THE WORLD who have worked extensively with both captives and wild.
The book is called Death At Seaworld, there are rumors going around that David Kirby is 'making money from Dawn Brancheaus death' by releasing this book. This is false, she is mentioned in the book in one chapter (no one could write an accurate book on captive orca without mentioning human deaths!) The book is NOT about Ms Brancheau.

Death At Seaworld

3 hours ago.

Advanced buzz for Death at SeaWorld!

One of the “great books” of the summer
– The Columbus Dispatch

#1 Readers Poll Choice for Summer Books
– Wall Street Journal Online

“Lives are at stake here, and Kirby can be trusted to tell the story, having won a passel of awards for his investigative work.”
-- Library Journal

“Journalist Kirby offers another passionate industry exposé … the narrative goes into high gear with its concluding confrontation.”
-- Publisher’s Weekly

“As David Kirby so eloquently documents in this timely work, Killer-whale captivity only benefits the captors. It is impossible to read ‘Death at SeaWorld’ and come to any other conclusion.”
--Jane Goodall, Ph.D., D.B.E., Founder, the Jane Goodall Institute, UN Messenger of Peace

"Entertaining, engaging and enraging - The fairy tale fantasy that the captivity marine mammal industry has spun for the unwary public is expertly unraveled in this non-fiction crime thriller."
-- Louie Psihoyos, Academy Award winning director of 'The Cove'

“In this authoritative and superbly investigative page-turner, certain to ruffle feathers and fins, David Kirby … reports brilliantly on the escalating troubles and conflicts, the surprising and sordid underbelly of life — and death — at SeaWorld.”
-- Erich Hoyt, author of the best-selling classic Orca: The Whale Called Killer

“’Death at SeaWorld’ is one of the most important books, if not the most important book, ever written on the horrific plight of captive cetaceans. Kirby systematically dismantles the arguments used to justify keeping these incredibly intelligent and sentient beings in aquatic cages.
-- Marc Bekoff, University of Colorado, author of The Emotional Lives of Animals

"This is a book everyone should read… David Kirby's ‘Death at SeaWorld’ outlines in grim detail just how bad captivity is for orcas and other marine mammals."
-- Richard O'Barry, Director of Earth Island Institute's Dolphin Project and star of 'The Cove' (and Flippers original trainer)

“At last, both sides of the story behind the events at SeaWorld are being told and the truth is finally getting out there. Every budding orca trainer should consider this the must-read book of their career.”
--Dr. Ingrid N. Visser, Founder & Principal Scientist, Orca Research Trust

“One helluva book! David Kirby provides the most complete and accurate account of what I perceive as a transgression of morality toward the animal kingdom---the slavery of orcas, supreme beings in the aquatic world.”
--Ken Balcomb, Director, Center for Whale Research

“David Kirby’s research is impeccable and his words unforgettable. You will never view dolphin and orca shows the same way again.”
– Lori Marino, PhD, Senior Lecturer in Neuroscience and Behavioral Biology, Emory University

“This remarkable book deserves to be acknowledged as the most significant and moving account of the often disastrous interaction of cetaceans and humans since Moby-Dick.”
--Richard Ellis, author of Men and Whales, The Empty Ocean, and The Great Sperm Whale


----------



## Ink

i dont understand how anyone can be pro captive dolphins and whales.


----------



## yugimon121

Ink said:


> i dont understand how anyone can be pro captive dolphins and whales.


I can understand perfectly why, though I do not agree with it. Yes they dont get as much illnesses, you prevent extinction, things have improved since the 60's and you teach more people about them, but there is not enough space, socialism and too much human interference in their lives. 
There are good points to both sides, but I am strictly anti-captivity.


----------



## Jackie-K

UPDATE: we were back in court today, here is a link with some of the main points brought up...interesting that Javier Almunia turned up to make a statement but then refused to answer any questions...the judge was not impressed and basically told him if all he was going to do was make a statement he could have just mailed it in!!!. End Killer Whale Captivity, Morgan's Court Case Today
decision on December 13th. Saw up to date photos of Morgan, she is not doing well, they are putting in the same pool as Keto who is regularly body slamming her and trying to breed with her. She is spending a lot of time distancing herself from all the orcas if she can, Skyla and Kohana photographed attacking her (about 100 attacks over 77 hours documented). Has now started bashing her head into the walls, stereotypical behavior (more common in dolphins and pilot whales) out of boredom and frustration.


----------



## Zoo-Man

Jackie-K said:


> UPDATE: we were back in court today, here is a link with some of the main points brought up...interesting that Javier Almunia turned up to make a statement but then refused to answer any questions...the judge was not impressed and basically told him if all he was going to do was make a statement he could have just mailed it in!!!. End Killer Whale Captivity, Morgan's Court Case Today
> decision on December 13th. Saw up to date photos of Morgan, she is not doing well, they are putting in the same pool as Keto who is regularly body slamming her and trying to breed with her. She is spending a lot of time distancing herself from all the orcas if she can, Skyla and Kohana photographed attacking her (about 100 attacks over 77 hours documented). Has now started bashing her head into the walls, stereotypical behavior (more common in dolphins and pilot whales) out of boredom and frustration.


Thanks Jackie, been following this on Facebook too. Hang in there Morgan...


----------



## kezzbag

surely this is a prefect example of mistreatment of an animal keep putting it in abusive conditions...why cany they move the orca to a diff pool?, poor thing im really against these sort of animals being kept in captivity, they are too big and no-one has a pool the size of an ocean xx


----------



## yugimon121

Finally, it;s back in court. Let's do something that should have been when they first found her.


----------



## Jackie-K

kezzbag said:


> surely this is a prefect example of mistreatment of an animal keep putting it in abusive conditions...why cany they move the orca to a diff pool?, poor thing im really against these sort of animals being kept in captivity, they are too big and no-one has a pool the size of an ocean xx


They dont have enough pools...they were putting her in with Adan, still do on occasion but she is bullying and biting him, experts have said this is common with any animals who are put in situations where they are constantly being bullied and have no escape, when they get the chance they will then, out of frustration bully another animal that is 'lower' in the heirachy than they (seen this countless times with dogs).
They cant move Tekoa into a pool anywhere near Sky and Ko to make room as they have already done a number on him over the first few years they were there and will do whenever they get chance...basically the only ones who can be together are Sky, Ko and Keto....for safety reasons they would need 4 more pools, one each for Morgan, Tekoa, Adan and Vicky!!


----------

