# Sven Koppler sentenced and fined



## tannia369 (Oct 1, 2010)

dont know how to link it but i just read on msn home page that Sven Koppler has been sentenced to 6 months hard time and fine of £2500. has anyone else heard aboiut this? could someone post the link for me so others can read it??? 
what do you think about his sentence and fine???


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## kevhutch (Feb 18, 2010)

tannia369 said:


> dont know how to link it but i just read on msn home page that Sven Koppler has been sentenced to 6 months hard time and fine of £2500. has anyone else heard aboiut this? could someone post the link for me so others can read it???
> what do you think about his sentence and fine???


not heard this, he just accepted my friend request on facebook.

guess i wont hear anything from him until xmas then :lol2:


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## CharleyG.13 (Jan 6, 2011)

Sven Koppler arrested for 'sending hundred of tarantulas to US in post' | Mail Online

Dunno if they'll differ much, but there's the dailymail one : victory:

EDIT: I just checked the time stamp oops :blush:


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## kevhutch (Feb 18, 2010)

CharleyG.13 said:


> Sven Koppler arrested for 'sending hundred of tarantulas to US in post' | Mail Online
> 
> Dunno if they'll differ much, but there's the dailymail one : victory:


i think that is when he was first arrested


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## Josh R (Jan 14, 2008)

CharleyG.13 said:


> Sven Koppler arrested for 'sending hundred of tarantulas to US in post' | Mail Online
> 
> Dunno if they'll differ much, but there's the dailymail one : victory:


Thats from 2010 mate


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## CharleyG.13 (Jan 6, 2011)

Lol I just edited my post... Ignore mine :lol2:


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## tannia369 (Oct 1, 2010)

CharleyG.13 said:


> Sven Koppler arrested for 'sending hundred of tarantulas to US in post' | Mail Online
> 
> Dunno if they'll differ much, but there's the dailymail one : victory:


thats the one from when he was arrested. can someone tell me how to do the link? cheers guys


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## CharleyG.13 (Jan 6, 2011)

tannia369 said:


> thats the one from when he was arrested. can someone tell me how to do the link? cheers guys


It's the pic of the world up in the tools bar


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Reuters are running the same so maybe legit, I would have thought a much higher fine but no jail time.


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## hashnak (Apr 18, 2009)

Man gets six-month sentence for spider smuggling - Boston.com


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## kevhutch (Feb 18, 2010)

hashnak said:


> Man gets six-month sentence for spider smuggling - Boston.com


10 months all inclusive holiday for $4000, doesnt sound bad


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## CharleyG.13 (Jan 6, 2011)

hashnak said:


> Man gets six-month sentence for spider smuggling - Boston.com


Reading that article... how's that sentance going to "deter others from trying to smuggle animals into the U.S" ?


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Ouch, that's not good, I was hoping he would just get a fine. No one deserves to be in American prison, it's bad over there.


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## Fuzzmaster101 (May 26, 2010)

Both articles go on about the B.smithi being a protected species but nothing said about the fact that this only applies to WC specimens and not CB ones. Typical lazy reporting by the sensationalist press. Spice the story up a bit.


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## tannia369 (Oct 1, 2010)

hashnak said:


> Man gets six-month sentence for spider smuggling - Boston.com


thanks for posting the link, i still cant figure it out lol...


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## rudy691 (Aug 11, 2010)

to be honest - I think he got what he deserved...he will know next time not to mess around


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Well, he broke the law and got a much lighter punishment than the maximum so he can count himself lucky. 



CharleyG.13 said:


> Reading that article... how's that sentance going to "deter others from trying to smuggle animals into the U.S" ?


Would you like to go to Jail for 6 months, get fined £4,000 and be on 3 years probation? No? Didn't think so. It would certainly deter me. Also, I imagine once deported after his sentence he'll be banned from entering America again. No more trips to disneyland unfortunately.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Fuzzmaster101 said:


> Both articles go on about the B.smithi being a protected species but nothing said about the fact that this only applies to WC specimens and not CB ones. Typical lazy reporting by the sensationalist press. Spice the story up a bit.


Sorry, but that's incorrect. Brachypelma is covered by CITES which restricts all sales of these protected species, whether WC or CB. The belief is that its fine for them to be traded within Europe but not between Europe and other continents/countries. Invicta recently queried this with customs and were informed that you need "a bill of sale on which the import permit number or sale certificate number must be clearly displayed."


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Yes they are pushing the deterrent side with the custodial sentence fines don't always cut it in that regard, but im still wondering what happened to those people who's mail had been checked leading the investigation in the first place have they been left as stoolies to catch the next overseas seller out..


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Oderus said:


> Yes they are pushing the deterrent side with the custodial sentence fines don't always cut it in that regard, but im still wondering what happened to those people who's mail had been checked leading the investigation in the first place have they been left as stoolies to catch the next overseas seller out..


They might have been agents in the first place. :lol:

Havew you read "No Angel"? It's about ATF (Alcohol, Tabacco, Firearms) agents infiltrating the Hells Angels - so successful were they that were badged as 1%'ers. 

Maybe a different kettle of fish, but infiltrating a tarantula hobby and interacting with importers would be a peice of cake for similar agents (although it'd be customs agents, whatever they are known as in the US). 

Oh well, he got what the law suggets is a reasonable punishment. At the end of the day, it was motivated by a quick buck so no sympathy from me that he is being punished for it. Everyone knows you just don't waltz in and out of countries with livestock, and the having the CITES celebrity of the arachnid world with you is just plain arrogance.


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

I think they got it right but the fine dont seem to have a bearing on the amounts he was said to have made. Nice to see criminals getting what they deserve though


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

oliwilliams said:


> I think they got it right but the fine dont seem to have a bearing on the amounts he was said to have made. Nice to see criminals getting what they deserve though


They do in America, they don't have any of this 20 years is life, but you'll get off in 10 if you behave crap we have. If they do a serious crime chances are they will get life, like 80 years or something. :lol2:


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

vivalabam said:


> They do in America, they don't have any of this 20 years is life, but you'll get off in 10 if you behave crap we have. If they do a serious crime chances are they will get life, like 80 years or something. :lol2:


You don't know what you are talking about, and you have been watching too much TV'.
Their system is pretty much the same as ours, they have parole, probation the same as us.
The only differences are obviously the death penalty and when they get lifed off, they get stupid sentences like life with 300 year tariff.
Where as here you just get a HMP (Her Majesties pleasure=you never get out), we also have IPP's for public protection where it doesn't matter what sentence you get you have to prove that you are no longer a danger to the public before they let you out.


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## mattykyuss (Oct 12, 2009)

*re*

all i can say ,hope he stays in the hobby ,and gets back to his family and starts selling some good spiders again ,sven is a top guy ,his buisness is his ,do you think if he knew all my crimes and jail time ,he would not sell me a spider ,keep strong sven


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## Guest (May 17, 2011)

vivalabam said:


> Ouch, that's not good, I was hoping he would just get a fine. No one deserves to be in American prison, it's bad over there.


Not even rapists? Surely they deserve it a little bit?


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

ive got nothing againest the guy but breaking the law is breaking the law he new that he was breaking it so what ever hes got jail time ect tuff luck really


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

mattykyuss said:


> all i can say ,hope he stays in the hobby ,and gets back to his family and starts selling some good spiders again ,sven is a top guy ,his buisness is his ,do you think if he knew all my crimes and jail time ,he would not sell me a spider ,keep strong sven


What?


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

GRB said:


> What?


don't think he knows himself mate


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

So out of interest seeing as most of you consider you are experts on this how many of you have actually spoke to Sven rather than reading news reports??


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

selina20 said:


> So out of interest seeing as most of you consider you are experts on this how many of you have actually spoke to Sven rather than reading news reports??


What, you going to play the conspiracy theory card now, Selina<3'sSven? :lol:

Sorry, but you can defend him all you like, theres no excusing his actions. In his line of work he'd have to be certified insane to be ignorant of the laws he broke. I don't care if "he meant well" or other such BS. In my eyes he was doing more harm than any possible good and deserves the punishment of the law he knowingly broke. 

It saddens me to see people try to defend the man, then in the next instance will probably be responding to Chris Newman's threat to the hobby thread, as if widespread support for convicted animal smugglers is any less damaging to the public face of your hobby.


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## Moosey (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't really care what a nice guy he is. Serial killers have been model husbands and fathers, pillars of the community, does that mean that their crime is irrelevant? No.

I know smuggling spiders isn't anywhere near as bad as killing people, but you can't pretend nothings happened, or try and make it out to be nothing because you like the guy. It's starting to really grate on me the amount of people bleating about what a nice guy he is.



tannia369 said:


> thanks for posting the link, i still cant figure it out lol...


Are you completely serious? You just copy and paste it :/


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## DannyB (Nov 8, 2009)

$20billion a year for imported animals?? Jesus im in the wrong business.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> What, you going to play the conspiracy theory card now, Selina<3'sSven? :lol:
> 
> Sorry, but you can defend him all you like, theres no excusing his actions. In his line of work he'd have to be certified insane to be ignorant of the laws he broke. I don't care if "he meant well" or other such BS. In my eyes he was doing more harm than any possible good and deserves the punishment of the law he knowingly broke.
> 
> It saddens me to see people try to defend the man, then in the next instance will probably be responding to Chris Newman's threat to the hobby thread, as if widespread support for convicted animal smugglers is any less damaging to the public face of your hobby.


Im not defending him in anyway and have kept my mouth shut on this issue all the way through. However i love how people trust the press eventhough they know its probably completely blown out of proportion. Just look how many killer B.smithi news articles they have been.

And yet again you are being childish as usual. All i said was has anyone spoke to him.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

ive got nothing against him think ive spoke to him before tbh like i say i dunt no much about it kept out of it but laws the laws init thats all im saying


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Moonleh said:


> Not even rapists? Surely they deserve it a little bit?


Haha, that was really badly worded on my part.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

selina20 said:


> Im not defending him in anyway and have kept my mouth shut on this issue all the way through. However i love how people trust the press eventhough they know its probably completely blown out of proportion. Just look how many killer B.smithi news articles they have been.
> 
> And yet again you are being bloody childish as usual. All i said was has anyone spoke to him.



Oh lighten up :lol: I'm just having a laugh about it. 

The media are not always correct but then again I read the actual charges levelled against him. If he pleaded guilty, and was charged, then that's good enough for me to accept the paper is probably reporting the "charged" and "punishment" parts as truthful. 

I don't actually care about the following, as it's irrelevent:



How nice a guy he is
How many spiders were involved
Whether or not the CITES listed species were CB
If people actually cared about how the hobby was perceived, then the reaction would be universal condemnation, not justification, not conspiracy theories, not defense or down playing the law. 

There's a whole wildlife law, environmental protection subset of conservation science and one of the biggest hurdles they face is lack of public support. This whole thing illustrates exactly that hurdle - you'd think a forum that supports exotic pets and "loves tarantulas" would be the first to back them up and pat them on the back for taking one more smuggler out of the action for a short while. 

Instead, it's almost the opposite. Without support,wildlife laws never have much interest from outside bodies and they never get the chance to evolve. Then the next thing is suddenly such and such species goes extinct and there's a thread here lamenting how it's suddenly so expensive in captiviy or unavailable or whatever. 

I'm actually considering sending the team that investigated this an email of support, because it's about damn time they were cracking down on it.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> Oh lighten up :lol: I'm just having a laugh about it.
> 
> The media are not always correct but then again I read the actual charges levelled against him. If he pleaded guilty, and was charged, then that's good enough for me to accept the paper is probably reporting the "charged" and "punishment" parts as truthful.
> 
> ...


And you have not ever done anything wrong have you Grant. Afterall we are all told to worship your bum on here


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Personally i see alot of hypocrisy going on about this issue.

Alot of people in this forum seem to want him hung drawn and quartered and never deal with him again(note i said 'again').....and yet you'll still buy spiders from TSS....everyone can say 'oh well his plane was rerouted unexpectedly' but you know what.....after being a major importer of spiders in the UK for 15 years i can tell you this, 'shipping' spiders in the luggage hold is NOT and accepted form of import.

So before you jump all guns blazing, look at your spider collection and think where they came from before commenting further.

Let he who hath no spiders from any dubious source whatsover cast the first stone.

thats all i'm saying


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Personally i see alot of hypocrisy going on about this issue.
> 
> Alot of people in this forum seem to want him hung drawn and quartered and never deal with him again(note i said 'again').....and yet you'll still buy spiders from TSS....everyone can say 'oh well his plane was rerouted unexpectedly' but you know what.....after being a major importer of spiders in the UK for 15 years i can tell you this, 'shipping' spiders in the luggage hold is NOT and accepted form of import.
> 
> ...


I agree completely.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

hehe thats probs be never bought any thing of tts far as i no all mine have been cb in uk


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

selina20 said:


> And you have not ever done anything wrong have you Grant. Afterall we are all told to worship your arse on here


*rolls eyes*.

Have I smuggled tarantulas? No. That's the issue, not whether you assume I'm perfect or not. 

It's hardly like smuggling animals is akin to breathing and somewhat difficult to avoid. You have to make a concious effort to smuggle them. 

I'm dissapointed that you could call my playful poking childish then reply with something so banal. Why can't you accept that I might actually know what I'm talking about in this issue? I do study conservation science and in a couple years will be "Dr" all things going to plan. I don't spend all day twiddling my thumbs _not reading _conervation articles and issues pertaining to arthropod conservation on a global scale.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Stelios said:


> You don't know what you are talking about, and you have been watching too much TV'.
> Their system is pretty much the same as ours, they have parole, probation the same as us.
> The only differences are obviously the death penalty and when they get lifed off, they get stupid sentences like life with 300 year tariff.
> Where as here you just get a HMP (Her Majesties pleasure=you never get out), we also have IPP's for public protection where it doesn't matter what sentence you get you have to prove that you are no longer a danger to the public before they let you out.


I'm not going to give this a full reply, I'm not going off topic because this is about Sven and his case, but what I will say is I study Criminology at university, so I do kinda know what I'm talking about. : victory:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

GRB said:


> Oh lighten up :lol: I'm just having a laugh about it.
> 
> The media are not always correct but then again I read the actual charges levelled against him. If he pleaded guilty, and was charged, then that's good enough for me to accept the paper is probably reporting the "charged" and "punishment" parts as truthful.
> 
> ...


i agree whole heartedly on what iv just highlighted in red.....every package from every country that's sent to the UK from outside the EU should be opened and checked for livestock and the recipients should be hung from the yardarm and disemboweled whilst being forced to listen to 'excerpts from the cast of glee'


except my fig newtons and smartfood that my missus sends me back from the states of course.....dont want mah nomnoms being pinched! :2thumb:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> *rolls eyes*.
> 
> Have I smuggled tarantulas? No. That's the issue, not whether you assume I'm perfect or not.
> 
> ...


Sorry Grant but a lot of us lost respect for you when you turned into a total jerk. Yea you know your stuff agreed.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Personally i see alot of hypocrisy going on about this issue.
> 
> Alot of people in this forum seem to want him hung drawn and quartered and never deal with him again(note i said 'again').....and yet you'll still buy spiders from TSS....everyone can say 'oh well his plane was rerouted unexpectedly' but you know what.....after being a major importer of spiders in the UK for 15 years i can tell you this, 'shipping' spiders in the luggage hold is NOT and accepted form of import.


I haven't actually bought from TSS in a very long time...

Why is it that basically, unless someone posts "he's a nice guy, hugs and kisses" we want him hung drawn and quartered? 

I am glad he was punished within what the law deemd appropriate. As I said before, you don't jump off a cliff and then moan when it hurts on the landing. He's not around to whinge, but you get the gist :lol:

I do actually care about the ethics of my collection. I have a few spiders from CB stock and very few have been WC, bought mainly due to inability to source CB. Yes, I know all stock is initially WC etc etc and this is not what I am discussing as we're both well aware of the arguments pro and con for this. 

It does read to me however, that people are more concerned because they won't be able to buy spiders from Sven than the bigger issue. Perhaps it is just my interpretation of some posts.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

GRB said:


> I haven't actually bought from TSS in a very long time...
> 
> Why is it that basically, unless someone posts "he's a nice guy, hugs and kisses" we want him hung drawn and quartered?
> 
> ...


hope no one falls out with me but i agree tbh


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

This always creates such a big debate every time it comes up. :whistling2:


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

He got what he deserved the law was broken, I am not really sure why everyones getting a stork on over this it don't effect my life and I won't loose any sleep over it but some of you really need threapy if this sort of thing gets to you. 

Who cares its tomorrows chip paper.


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## dodgy (Sep 15, 2009)

could he have imported them properley with the right permits or have the US got a total clamp down on importing livestock?


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

My view on the matter is that he committed an offence and has been dealt with accordingly, I personally don't believe that a prison sentence was warranted and a larger fine should of been issued instead. Although saying that, I am not the law. Haha.

As for saying its unethical to have WC specimens in your collection I have to disagree, as stated by Grant everything available in the hobby was once WC. If it takes acquiring WC specimens to breed in captivity and hopefully produce CB stock I see that a positive rather than a negative. 

That's just my 100 Ugandan shillings.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

I seriously cant see how this warranted a prison sentence a fine would have been more then sufficent,


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## Soulwax (Jan 6, 2009)

Who is he?


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## aaronsweeting (Feb 3, 2011)

He broke the law and now has to pay.

*humourbot 5000 has lost the neccessary files*


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## hazza12 (Apr 16, 2009)

Soulwax said:


> Who is he?


*God....*

narr i kid hes a tarantula breeder


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Soulwax said:


> Who is he?


Basically he bred b.smithi then imported some to America without paperwork!


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

Soulwax said:


> Who is he?


That's classic you have the right idea pal.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Kind words in a non insulting manner.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

There's no reason for any insulting comments on this thread. 

Insults or abuse directed at people for having a difference of opinion will be infracted - this is the warning. 

Closing this thread is simply going to result in further threads popping up in the next few days likely as details emerge, so I have re-opened this in hopes we can avoid numerous duplicate threads.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

GRB said:


> There's no reason for any insulting comments on this thread.
> 
> Insults or abuse directed at people for having a difference of opinion will be infracted - this is the warning.
> 
> Closing this thread is simply going to result in further threads popping up in the next few days likely as details emerge, so I have re-opened this in hopes we can avoid numerous duplicate threads.


 
Totally agree Grant *if it were a difference of opinion.* Wonder if he would be making jokes if it were his Dad in the jail right now ??? 

[C'mon dude, don't force my hand.]


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Dr3d said:


> Totally agree Grant *if it were a difference of opinion.* Wonder if he would be making jokes if it were his Dad in the jail right now ???
> 
> [C'mon dude, don't force my hand.]


Well, I read it as a joke tbh.

I just don't understand the mindset. You'd have to assume Sven knew the risks, and now a good chunk of folks seem to be getting really wound up over it.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

Dr3d said:


> Totally agree Grant *if it were a difference of opinion.* Wonder if he would be making jokes if it were his Dad in the jail right now ???
> 
> [C'mon dude, don't force my hand.]




ive learnt mate from all my infractions bans if you dont like something dont read it or if you do dont post


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

GRB said:


> Well, I read it as a joke tbh.
> 
> I just don't understand the mindset. You'd have to assume Sven knew the risks, and now a good chunk of folks seem to be getting really wound up over it.


 
im not wound up on it Grant, but i will PM you my reasons for feeling the way I do mate its not for the forum.....


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

well too keep it simple its over and done with now he's got his time ect his problem don't see why people making it there own problem like you say he seems a smart guy so he must of known what he was doing was wrong


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## Leanne47 (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm not 100% sure what all the fuss is about. He smuggled spiders into the US, (which isn't in any doubt), got caught and got punished. They just can't go making exceptions for him because he's a nice guy. At the end of the day he knew what he was doing was illegal, risked it anyway, got caught and now has to pay the price.


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## george dobson (May 20, 2009)

even just reading the comments left by others annoy me 'the man is clearly an idiot' she sounds such a moron by even saying that, he proberably earns more than her yearly salary


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## george dobson (May 20, 2009)

Leanne47 said:


> I'm not 100% sure what all the fuss is about. He smuggled spiders into the US, (which isn't in any doubt), got caught and got punished. They just can't go making exceptions for him because he's a nice guy. At the end of the day he knew what he was doing was illegal, risked it anyway, got caught and now has to pay the price.


the fact is they were captive bred, if anything it would have been good for the american tarantula hobby, reducing demand on wild, declining number species native to america


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

george dobson said:


> the fact is they were captive bred, if anything it would have been good for the american tarantula hobby, *reducing demand on wild*, declining number species native to america


So Sven's smuggling saves WC's being smuggled . That'd be your argument for letting him off ?


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## Leanne47 (Mar 24, 2009)

george dobson said:


> the fact is they were captive bred, if anything it would have been good for the american tarantula hobby, reducing demand on wild, declining number species native to america


 
I see, and how are they going to prove (now & in the future) the tarantulas are in fact CB? Are there any tell tale signs? Tbh I think it would just increase the opportunity for people to import WC.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

george dobson said:


> even just reading the comments left by others annoy me 'the man is clearly an idiot' she sounds such a moron by even saying that, he proberably earns more than her yearly salary


What part of "no insults" do you not get?



george dobson said:


> the fact is they were captive bred, if anything it would have been good for the american tarantula hobby, reducing demand on wild, declining number species native to america


Yes, but technically illegally introuced CB stock _is _damaging when it competes with the far more ethical and "far better" organised programmes such as the Tarantulas de Mexico programme. Which is better?:

Captive Bred Tarantulas of dubious genetic lineage bred (i.e as is most hobby material) in Germany and illegally introduced to the US

or

Captive bred tarantulas from known populations in Mexico responsibly gathered in a sustainable manner by experts and distributed into the US


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

george dobson said:


> the fact is they were captive bred, if anything it would have been good for the american tarantula hobby, reducing demand on wild, declining number species native to america



Though I agree with what you are saying theres a right way and a wrong way to go about things. Yes it is a shame that he got caught and I also think a prison sentence was a little harsh, however that being said anyone who knowingly breaks the law deserves to be punished. Just my tuppance lol


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

george dobson said:


> the fact is they were captive bred, if anything it would have been good for the american tarantula hobby, reducing demand on wild, declining number species native to america


This I don't no y people keep piping up probably noing nothing about its just seeing the words smuggling and assuming


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## george dobson (May 20, 2009)

GRB said:


> What part of "no insults" do you not get?


i wasnt on about the comments on here i meant the ones left on the news sites so yeah good one


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

I hope all these comments come up again when person X posts pics of invert Z that oh so obligingly found its way into their suitcase when they were holidaying in country Y.......

it seems that those posts get a reception along the lines of 'nice find' or suchlike and a few people who have aired there views 'against' in this thread have posted such comments

i have no problem with people posting grown up opinions......it's the double standards thats making me chuckle :lol2: see? :lol2: oo, there i go again


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## george dobson (May 20, 2009)

i see where you are coming from but i believe they make it out to be a lot more sinister than it really is, the american government for a fact dont like the exotic pet trade as thats why the HR669 law was going to be released, i believe it is a billion pound market or something on a large scale in america.


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

GRB said:


> What part of "no insults" do you not get?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can i pick B please bob??? Lol think lots of people are missing the big picture because a high majority have dealt with sven. I still think prison was a little harsh though, a huge fine would have made him think twice!!


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## george dobson (May 20, 2009)

Lerg said:


> Can i pick B please bob??? Lol think lots of people are missing the big picture because a high majority have dealt with sven. I still think prison was a little harsh though, a huge fine would have made him think twice!!


 yeahh i think he got a £4,000 fine but still 6 months in prison would be horrible


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

not been funny but apart from steve and grb your all contradicting yourselves should of left the topic at the valid information instead of most of us jumping to conclusions


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I hope all these comments come up again when person X posts pics of invert Z that oh so obligingly found its way into their suitcase when they were holidaying in country Y.......
> 
> it seems that those posts get a reception along the lines of 'nice find' or suchlike and a few people who have aired there views 'against' in this thread have posted such comments


Therein lies the problem...I agree, those should be treated in a similar manner. 

Then again, one invert in a suitcase is not a guy dealing in them as a part time or full time occupation. I mean, it also happens by accident occassionally and the animal is usually euthanised (which is not that ideal ethically when keepers are on hand) - you can't say Sven's case was an accident however.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

btw no offence ment by my op


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Lerg said:


> Can i pick B please bob??? Lol think lots of people are missing the big picture because a high majority have dealt with sven. I still think prison was a little harsh though, a huge fine would have made him think twice!!


Yeah even I was surprised to see reports of jail time. Perhaps it is a sign of tougher penalties to come....again in the big picture perhaps that is the only way to get people to pay attention and reduce wildlife crime. 

I mean, this particular issue is tarantulas, but it goes on with so many other species. In a way I'm surprised it went this way, because inverts are usually written off in favour of spending effort on mammals and such (the "more charismatic species" as one might say).


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

Shandy said:


> not been funny but apart from steve and grb your all contradicting yourselves should of left the topic at the valid information instead of most of us jumping to conclusions



Hey brandan thats not fair my opinion has always been he deserved to be punished but that i thought a prison sentence was harsh. If he got a 4k fine as reported why not just hit his pocket harder for about 15-20k and make an example that way?? Thats all i said  so nur nur nur nur lol and GRB i dont know why some are trying to shoot you down, both you and Steve have made some excellent points IMO. Anyhows whats for dinner imstarving lol


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

i did say no offence wasnt picking on you lol just ment the people on this topic as a whole


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Lerg said:


> Hey brandan thats not fair my opinion has always been he deserved to be punished but that i thought a prison sentence was harsh. If he got a 4k fine as reported why not just hit his pocket harder for about 15-20k and make an example that way?? Thats all i said  so nur nur nur nur lol and GRB i dont know why some are trying to shoot you down, both you and Steve have made some excellent points IMO. Anyhows whats for dinner imstarving lol


It's 9:50 how can you not have had dinner yet. :lol2:


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

GRB said:


> Yeah even I was surprised to see reports of jail time. Perhaps it is a sign of tougher penalties to come....again in the big picture perhaps that is the only way to get people to pay attention and reduce wildlife crime.
> 
> I mean, this particular issue is tarantulas, but it goes on with so many other species. In a way I'm surprised it went this way, because inverts are usually written off in favour of spending effort on mammals and such (the "more charismatic species" as one might say).


Have to say I didn't think of that. I suppose they have to make a first example to show others they mean business. Still think a little ott but then if they are going to crackdown on all aspects of wildlife smuggling surely the majority must agree this is a good thing rather than a negative one?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

GRB said:


> Therein lies the problem...I agree, those should be treated in a similar manner.
> 
> Then again, one invert in a suitcase is not a guy dealing in them as a part time or full time occupation. I mean, it also happens by accident occassionally and the animal is usually euthanised (which is not that ideal ethically when keepers are on hand) - you can't say Sven's case was an accident however.



im not, never have 

but smuggling a handful of animals is no different morally to the amounts Sven has been charged with. it is also subject to the same charge

unless i'm wrong and importing only half a dozen or so animals without relevant paperwork or through the correct channels and procedures is different and not covered by any law


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

vivalabam said:


> It's 9:50 how can you not have had dinner yet. :lol2:


Been a busy day, found out yoday i got my job in canada and that my visa has been agreed  so just been in a blur making loads of plans ready to move in november



Shandy said:


> i did say no offence wasnt picking on you lol just ment the people on this topic as a whole


I know dude was just trying to make light of it all everyone seems so grrr about it lol


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

Lerg said:


> Been a busy day, found out yoday i got my job in canada and that my visa has been agreed  so just been in a blur making loads of plans ready to move in november
> 
> 
> 
> I know dude was just trying to make light of it all everyone seems so grrr about it lol


good luck with it all tarantulas are more expensive in canada:lol2:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> im not, never have
> 
> but smuggling a handful of animals is no different morally to the amounts Sven has been charged with. it is also subject to the same charge
> 
> unless i'm wrong and importing only half a dozen or so animals without relevant paperwork or through the correct channels and procedures is different and not covered by any law


True - it's just easier to sort of "ethically defend" smaller volumes and one off accidents than a repeated, higher volume operation for (substancial, apparently) financial gain. 

I personally do see a difference between smuggling, say, half a dozen and 100 or 1000, whatever. Both are smuggling, but to tar with the same brush would be to like suggesting that smuggling in £100 of drugs is no worse than smuggling £100,000 sort of thing. Damage limitation is easier for the former...


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

The bottom line is, he was screwing the american goverment for there cut of his money and they cought him..... it's not all about cities on protected spiders it's about him keeping X ammount of wedge away from them... getting one over on them so to speak..... would'nt matter what subject he got cought for if it's to do with money they will push it hard simple!!!!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I kind of agree with Dred, its a money issue and setting an example.

If he had paid for the paperwork, all the arguments about supporting Mexican breeders, wild caught vs captive bred, giving the hobby a bad name etc etc would have been blown apart.

He took the risk, can't defend that, but if he had of sold them to France instead of US it wouldn't have even been a topic in a forum.

As I've said before, there's compassionate grounds for Sven and his family, not to mention the issues with his stock. And if we accept that Sven actually bred these surely that's something we should support, legally of course. Surely that's something we all support captive breeding instead of wild caught?

The irony of it all is that the costs of the paperwork seem to be rather small sums.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> I kind of agree with Dred, its a money issue and setting an example.
> 
> If he had paid for the paperwork, all the arguments about supporting Mexican breeders, wild caught vs captive bred, giving the hobby a bad name etc etc would have been blown apart.
> 
> ...


I do agree with you Pete.

My argument is that i doubt anyone on here actually knows what really went on and with the media blowing it out of proportions people are judging this issue on that.

Would also like to point out to all those WC activists on here that buy from suppliers such as TSS did you know that majority of online stores actually buy WC females in the hope that they drop sacs so technically most of the slings will of been made in the wild and then brought over before the sacs were laid. Also those of you with AF Aphonopelmas chances are those are all WC too.


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## Lucybug (May 10, 2011)

i agree with poxicator, in the sence we should defend our CB stock, it is after all the way forward in the hobby, and the wild.

I also agree with selina, others are blowing this way out of proportion. Bare in mind this is only a select few IMO.

Now for my view on this. I see alot of "he should have only been fined", well if so, how much ? 20K is not even a scratch on what he earned, im sure if sven was offered a fine of 120K or 4K and 6 months, id bet he would have chose the 4k + 6 months. The law would not have given him a light fine, he would have had it heavy. He should consider him self VERY lucky to have gotten away with what he did. All sentencing aside, his crime, regardless of being CB or WC, was out rages. No one no matter who they are, should get away with anything, the laws and legislations are there for a reason.

Now for what threads are started on this forum, i can safely say wont really do damage to the hobby. But when it comes to law, courts and order. World wide spread news and so forth are simply twisting it (what dont they twist) will effect the hobby, in a BIG way. First thing being rumors and people beliving what they read, its going to make it a wide spread "drama", which to be honest this hobby does not need. Id agree with some, if they were to say, hey he was a decent guy, but he messed up, he deserves the punishment.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

selina20 said:


> Would also like to point out to all those WC activists on here that buy from suppliers such as TSS did you know that majority of online stores actually buy WC females in the hope that they drop sacs so technically most of the slings will of been made in the wild and then brought over before the sacs were laid. Also those of you with AF Aphonopelmas chances are those are all WC too.


Yes there are still lots of harder to breed species having their numbers propped up by W/C females dropping sac's after collection and by wild eggsac's being collected, the later often were permits can not be legally obtained such as the Megaphobema species, i'v heard there are some really good breeders of M. mesomelas who always get good eggsac's hatching after their yearly holldays.. to the cloud forests of Costa Rica :lol2:

Maybe they need a spot of this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g2ni96qrfk


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Oderus said:


> Yes there are still lots of harder to breed species having their numbers propped up by W/C females dropping sac's after collection and by wild eggsac's being collected, the later often were permits can not be legally obtained such as the Megaphobema species, *i'v heard there are some really good breeders of M. mesomelas who always get good eggsac's hatching after their yearly holldays.. to the cloud forests of Costa Rica :lol2:*
> 
> Maybe they need a spot of this..
> YouTube - X- COPS - Barbells


Ive heard of these said breeders too lmao


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> As I've said before, there's compassionate grounds for Sven and his family, not to mention the issues with his stock. And if we accept that Sven actually bred these surely that's something we should support, legally of course. Surely that's something we all support captive breeding instead of wild caught?
> 
> The irony of it all is that the costs of the paperwork seem to be rather small sums.


I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't support CB, but to lump "CB" in with "Smuggling CB"? They are not one and the same. 

The whole reason I reopened this thread was to allow people the oppertunity to think about where these animals originate from. That new rare species everyone wants might have more than just a high price tag attached to it, in terms of "ethical costs". 

When I started buying I did the same as most and tended to trust suppliers to do things above board. Then again, my spiders, barring one species which I have since bred, were commonplace and well established species that have been in the hobby for some time - any damage or underhandedness was conducted probably years before I even started keeping spiders, let alone tarantulas. But it could just have easily been the other side of the coin and I could have bought a bunch of "CB" smuggled animals from various countries when first starting out. 

However, as you get more involved with the hobby you get to see the darker side of things and in that respect this point is more aimed at those keepers who know about this issue yet either ignore it as an inconvenient factor or deny it completely. 

It's an evolving process - we (more established keepers) should be making new keepers aware of where spiders are being shipped from as well as ensuring people can correctly care for them. At least if people have the facts easily available they can then decide if they want to support sales which might have an element of underhand dealing or not. 

I mean, I couldn't provide a list of all countries with closed export bans on tarantulas off the top of my head, and I don't know if such a list exists elsewhere. Perhaps Bill, Steve or Pete might have a better handle, but it does make you think that when you start out you could buy the species you like from Country X and never realise that country X species are likely smuggled illegally into the country.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

GRB said:


> I mean, I couldn't provide a list of all countries with closed export bans on tarantulas off the top of my head, and I don't know if such a list exists elsewhere. Perhaps Bill, Steve or Pete might have a better handle, but it does make you think that when you start out you could buy the species you like from Country X and never realise that country X species are likely smuggled illegally into the country.


Others may well know better then me Grant but it seems quite hard to find out what county's either "legally open" granting permits are fully closed and others which are semi closed and allowing exports via backdoors and/or backhanders unless you make inquiries in person and even then.

But from what iv read much of Latin America is closed including many places we still keep seeing stuff from, I think most of the time has you have said it's done via exporting from another country nearby.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

So whats peoples views on Rick West's statements in court? 

:hmm:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> So whats peoples views on Rick West's statements in court?
> 
> :hmm:


*wishes she knew what this was*


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> So whats peoples views on Rick West's statements in court?
> 
> :hmm:


published out of context by the media on the whole


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

vivalabam said:


> *wishes she knew what this was*


Ohh, I thought you may have read about the court case...

*Clicky Linky* 

: victory:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> Ohh, I thought you may have read about the court case...
> 
> *Clicky Linky*
> 
> : victory:


Nope, have you not noticed my very limited opinions on the subject, I've no ide what went on other that what's said in here. :lol2:

Thanks for the think. :2thumb:


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> published out of context by the media on the whole


Well, as said Sven certainly hasn't done the hobby any favours with this publicity, although I dont feel that Mr West has either with such public statements.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

This is quite an interesting thread where Sven himself adds a couple of posts.

*Click*


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## angelgirls29 (Jul 10, 2010)

How did they know for certain how much money he had made?


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Some of the issues that need to be considered in this matter are quite complex. The first _Brachypelma_ species listed on CITES, _Brachypelma smithi_, was scheduled in 1985. The entire genus was scheduled in 1994. Issue this creates are quite complex, in order to acquire valid export permits for captive bred specimens, for arguments sake lets say _Brachypelma smithi, _to countries outside the EU this requires proof the founder stock were acquired lawfully. How many _Brachypelma smithi _were acquired lawfully? Answer probably none!!!!!! Prior to 1985 _Brachypelma smithi _was an unprotected species internationally, it may or may not have been protected in Mexico, but internationally it was unprotected, apart from the USA with its perverse Lacy Act. If a species is not protected internationally proof of legal acquisition of founders stock is impossible. Therefore if you cannot prove legal acquisition how can you acquire valid export CITES documents? There is a huge difference between illegal trade in wild collected specimens and illegal trade in captive bred specimens, i.e. illegal trade in legal specimens due to technical issues. Unfortunately enforcement bodies make no differential and treat both in the same context. Why they do so is a very valid question to ask!


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## angelgirls29 (Jul 10, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> Some of the issues that need to be considered in this matter are quite complex. The first _Brachypelma_ species listed on CITES, _Brachypelma smithi_, was scheduled in 1985. The entire genus was scheduled in 1994. Issue this creates are quite complex, in order to acquire valid export permits for captive bred specimens, for arguments sake lets say _Brachypelma smithi, _to countries outside the EU this requires proof the founder stock were acquired lawfully. How many _Brachypelma smithi _were acquired lawfully? Answer probably none!!!!!! Prior to 1985 _Brachypelma smithi _was an unprotected species internationally, it may or may not have been protected in Mexico, but internationally it was unprotected, apart from the USA with its perverse *Lacy Act*. If a species is not protected internationally proof of legal acquisition of founders stock is impossible. Therefore if you cannot prove legal acquisition how can you acquire valid export CITES documents? There is a huge difference between illegal trade in wild collected specimens and illegal trade in captive bred specimens, i.e. illegal trade in legal specimens due to technical issues. Unfortunately enforcement bodies make no differential and treat both in the same context. Why they do so is a very valid question to ask!


Is that the one from 1900?


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## tannia369 (Oct 1, 2010)

being the OP of this thread i thought i would now give my own veiws. i was going to do it this morning but found the thread closed. i didnt do it yesterday as i was short of time...
my PERSONAL opinion is this.
it is said sven made several thousands through his illegal shipping of what the usa declared to be an endangered sp. i am assuming wrongly or rightly that he must have been sending in more than the B.Smithy??? does anyone know for sure what he was sending? i know i havent! surely he is in his right to make money from his hard work! its just the case that he didnt do it correctly in this case.
i think that there has been alot of media hype because of the nature of the offence, and the fact that it was in the usa. 
at the end of the day none of us would have our beloved T's if someone somewhere hadnt wild caught some local sp. and bred or stole the egg sac if found with the female.
ulimately we are all to blame for the illegal selling of these animals, if the need or want of these wasnt there, then there wouldnt be a need for the trade in the first place. 
in respect of sven, i personally have had no business with him, but i have seen both bad and good press for him on here. would i do business with him? probably not because i only deal with local breeders and friends that have bred. yes i know these at some point down the blood line were W/C. but i know that mine have been bred in captivity. do i still want to buy T's, of course i do! but i really only buy slings and grow them on, i find it much more rewarding to watch them grow on. the otherside of that is that i DO NOT breed them myself, so im no better than any buyer in this or any other country.
i didnt start this thread to cause an out cry, i guess i was silly in thinking people would keep it clean as such. there is no point in flameing him as he is now doing his time, weather you or i think its enough is not the point the law has delt with him..


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Rick West apparently stated that tarantulas carry "flesh eating disease bacteria"? 


Hmmn.....

[edit] Have now read that entire thread on AB. Interesting stuff.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

GRB said:


> Rick West apparently stated that tarantulas carry "flesh eating disease bacteria"?
> 
> 
> Hmmn.....


Yeah, that's what I don't get. There is a difference between stating something or just answering a question...


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

GRB said:


> Rick West apparently stated that tarantulas carry "flesh eating disease bacteria"?
> 
> 
> Hmmn.....


Only if they have been eating the right prey items if what Steve Nunn has indicated is true.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Oderus said:


> Only if they have been eating the right prey items if what Steve Nunn has indicated is true.


Yeah, I read on and saw Steve's comments. I think he makes some good points later on.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

GRB said:


> Rick West apparently stated that tarantulas carry "flesh eating disease bacteria"?
> 
> 
> Hmmn.....


I dont think the statement is incorrect but more delivered in a negative way towards Tarantulas, necrotizing fasciitis can be found in a wide range of situations..... I have read in the past that you can find the bacteria growing even in public toilets..... so to pin point it to tarantulas would just be another negative towards maybe WC specimens perhaps..... I dunno but there are some real bad press getting thrown about right now thats for sure.... It's like saying you can get tetanus from rusty nails, you could get tetanus from a tarantula but I doubt you would unless you were very unlucky....


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

GRB said:


> Yeah, I read on and saw Steve's comments. I think he makes some good points later on.


As a rule he talks a huge amount of sense without mincing his words much either on anything t related, I have a great deal of respect for him in a near bromance way but one of us would have to shave more :gasp:


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## tannia369 (Oct 1, 2010)

being the OP of this thread i thought i would now give my own veiws. i was going to do it this morning but found the thread closed. i didnt do it yesterday as i was short of time...
my PERSONAL opinion is this.
it is said sven made several thousands through his illegal shipping of what the usa declared to be an endangered sp. i am assuming wrongly or rightly that he must have been sending in more than the B.Smithy??? does anyone know for sure what he was sending? i know i havent! surely he is in his right to make money from his hard work! its just the case that he didnt do it correctly in this case.
i think that there has been alot of media hype because of the nature of the offence, and the fact that it was in the usa. 
at the end of the day none of us would have our beloved T's if someone somewhere hadnt wild caught some local sp. and bred or stole the egg sac if found with the female.
ulimately we are all to blame for the illegal selling of these animals, if the need or want of these wasnt there, then there wouldnt be a need for the trade in the first place. 
in respect of sven, i personally have had no business with him, but i have seen both bad and good press for him on here. would i do business with him? probably not because i only deal with local breeders and friends that have bred. yes i know these at some point down the blood line were W/C. but i know that mine have been bred in captivity. do i still want to buy T's, of course i do! but i really only buy slings and grow them on, i find it much more rewarding to watch them grow on. the otherside of that is that i DO NOT breed them myself, so im no better than any buyer in this or any other country.
i didnt start this thread to cause an out cry, i guess i was silly in thinking people would keep it clean as such. there is no point in flameing him as he is now doing his time, weather you or i think its enough is not the point the law has delt with him..


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Dr3d said:


> I dont think the statement is incorrect but more delivered in a negative way towards Tarantulas, necrotizing fasciitis can be found in a wide range of situations..... I have read in the past that you can find the bacteria growing even in public toilets..... so to pin point it to tarantulas would just be another negative towards maybe WC specimens perhaps..... I dunno but there are some real bad press getting thrown about right now thats for sure.... It's like saying you can get tetanus from rusty nails, you could get tetanus from a tarantula but I doubt you would unless you were very unlucky....


I think they have been misquoted to some degree or another, As Steve as said on that thread at AB I do not believe Rick is as anti hobby as some people have tryed to indicate in the past, however those that believe that may well use this as "proof" of that regardless of the context of his statement.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

@tannia369

Did you forget you just posted that on the last page? :hmm:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

having been present on a couple of hearings in the past i can imagine how it went:
if you dont mind i'll substitute the key points with other facts


counsel - 'Mr South....can you please confirm that human beings can in fact carry Ebola Virus'

Mr South - 'Yes they can, b.....'

counsel interupts
counsel - 'thank you for your expert testimony, we can now ascertain that Mr goran eriksson was in fact 'smuggling' a potentially deadly species with the capabilty of devastating this country'

followed by the news headline:

"Expert Witness Confirms the Smuggling of Deadly Humans!!"

without being present at the hearings all we have is 'polished' conjecture and hearsay and it itself the subject of 'chinese whispers'

The only confirmed facts we have are that Sven did in fact plead guilty and was subsequently convicted and sentenced.....everything else cant be taken as gospel


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## tannia369 (Oct 1, 2010)

mcluskyisms said:


> @tannia369
> 
> Did you forget you just posted that on the last page? :hmm:


:lol2:
i couldnt see it on the other page..... thought it had got lost in cyber space hehehehe........


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

I think the criticism of Rick West is a bit unfair. He hasn't said anything that isn't true yet he is being demonised by 'the hobby' as if he owes us a favour. I don't know what his opinions on the hobby (although Steve Nunn hints that he is a supporter and I'm inclined to believe it) are but it really is irrelevant when you are called up in court to give truthful answers to direct questions. A lot of people seem to have this selfish idea that the pet trade hobby is or should be of the utmost importance to everyone that has an interest in tarantulas but this isn't neccessarily the case and probably quite the opposite in many cases.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Is Rick West going to the B.T.S show?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Oderus said:


> As a rule he talks a huge amount of sense without mincing his words much either on anything t related, I have a great deal of respect for him in a near bromance way but one of us would have to shave more :gasp:


Yes, I have to say I am normally impressed with what he has to say regarding arachnids. 

Also...bromance :lol:


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

I think chris Newman made the most valid post here , ! Couldn't agree more


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## Moosey (Jan 7, 2008)

GRB said:


> *rolls eyes*.
> 
> Have I smuggled tarantulas? No. That's the issue, not whether you assume I'm perfect or not.
> 
> ...


Say more things like that :blush:


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

vivalabam said:


> I'm not going to give this a full reply, I'm not going off topic because this is about Sven and his case, but what I will say is I study Criminology at university, so I do kinda know what I'm talking about. : victory:


And I have spent over one third of my life in prison so I know what I am talking about.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

This and other threads about this are quite a funny read really. Nice to see something being done about the trade in smuggled animals though.


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## KenTheBugGuy (May 24, 2011)

*Point out*

I would like to point out here that although shipping through the mail is not legal nor is it right..... I believe going to prison for this is a far worst punishment than someone should endure for such a crime. Not only was he ripped from his life in Germany for 6 months already but now he will go to prison for another 6 months for shipping captive bred tarantulas through the mail. I am not saying what he did was right just that what he did should be a fine and not have him have to endure prison. I know people here in the US who have done far worst and things that hurt other people but are not in prison for it.

Also the person who asked him to do it this way is not even in trouble. Sven could have said no but at the same time Sven did not think he was the one breaking law in the US but the guy recieving it. The person recieveing the order is the one saving money doing it this way not the shipper (Sven). Sven did it this way at request of the buyer. Now that buyer got caught and decided to help entrap Sven to get off himself.

Now as I said I think Sven should have some sort of punishment (fines perhaps only) as he was caught doing something wrong but full prosecution from the hobby and prison? The guy that asked him to send the stuff this way should walk away free of charges? 

Just my take on it all.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Hi Ken
Welcome to the RFUK forums, nice to see you writing this side of the pond.

I think Steve Nunn raised some important points in AB. Its a wonder why prosecutions were not brought against the others, but its also a wonder why Sven didnt question this.

Are you aware whether the court transcripts have been released yet?


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## KenTheBugGuy (May 24, 2011)

*not*



Poxicator said:


> Hi Ken
> Welcome to the RFUK forums, nice to see you writing this side of the pond.
> 
> I think Steve Nunn raised some important points in AB. Its a wonder why prosecutions were not brought against the others, but its also a wonder why Sven didnt question this.
> ...


Not positive but I don't think they are yet. If there are appeals or anything also I don't think they will be released till its fully over and time has been served.

Also I would like to add that Sven had a lawyer that worked for the state also I am sure. He was probably appointed a lawyer and that lawyer is the one that decides who to question or not question ...not Sven.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I would like to point out here that although shipping through the mail is not legal nor is it right..... I believe going to prison for this is a far worst punishment than someone should endure for such a crime. Not only was he ripped from his life in Germany for 6 months already but now he will go to prison for another 6 months for shipping captive bred tarantulas through the mail. I am not saying what he did was right just that what he did should be a fine and not have him have to endure prison. I know people here in the US who have done far worst and things that hurt other people but are not in prison for it.
> 
> Also the person who asked him to do it this way is not even in trouble. Sven could have said no but at the same time Sven did not think he was the one breaking law in the US but the guy recieving it. The person recieveing the order is the one saving money doing it this way not the shipper (Sven). Sven did it this way at request of the buyer. Now that buyer got caught and decided to help entrap Sven to get off himself.
> 
> ...


Some fair points. 

At the end of the day however, by what you were saying (Sven thought the buyer was breaking the law, not the shipper) he still knew he was risking it. 

You don't go to another country and expect them to change their laws to suite you just because you are foreign. 

Until sellers, importers and buyers start to take responsibility for their actions then this sort of punishment is what is needed imho. We can't go 2 months without some new thread regarding " a threat to the hobby" - I forward that the hobbyists themselves are the biggest threat for exactly this sort of reason. You get a couple of guys trying to save a few bucks and look at the hassle and bad media coverage. Stupidity, and greed. 

Prison sends out a clear message and I'm sure Sven won't repeat the offence. Hopefully it will dissuade others from doing similar. I do think it odd that the buyers were not prosecuted, but then again they could well be being used to target the root causes (i.e. suppliers).


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## KenTheBugGuy (May 24, 2011)

*hmm*



GRB said:


> Some fair points.
> 
> At the end of the day however, by what you were saying (Sven thought the buyer was breaking the law, not the shipper) he still knew he was risking it.
> 
> ...


I see your point to an extent only though. Will this really stop things? Are suppliers making tons of money? I think not. Many are treating this like a drug crime or some such thing. This is not drugs and the suppliers are not getting rich, just making a little money. I think the buyers(also suppliers) are the ones that are driving this more than the suppliers. The suppliers are more than willing to sell it legally....its the buyers that are demanding it cheaper and illegal. The Suppliers are just giving thier customers what they want as they know they will move to the next supplier if they don't. This business does not make a ton of money so sometimes you are more willing to bend to survive. 

I am not saying the suppliers are not guilty just that I think the buyers are the more guilty parties.

Also I don't think this stops suppliers from doing this....it only stops them from being tricked into flying to the US for the grand opening of someones shop


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## Lucybug (May 10, 2011)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I see your point to an extent only though. Will this really stop things? Are suppliers making tons of money? I think not. *1)* *Many are treating this like a drug crime or some such thing*. This is not drugs and the suppliers are not getting rich, just making a little money. I think the buyers(also suppliers) are the ones that are driving this more than the suppliers. The suppliers are more than willing to sell it legally.... *2)* *its the buyers that are demanding it cheaper and illegal*. The Suppliers are just giving thier customers what they want as they know they will move to the next supplier if they don't. This business does not make a ton of money so sometimes you are more willing to bend to survive.
> 
> I am not saying the suppliers are not guilty just that I think the buyers are the more guilty parties.
> 
> Also I don't think this stops suppliers from doing this....it only stops them from being tricked into flying to the US for the grand opening of someones shop


1. As you say, some are treating this as a "drugs crime". How should we treat such actions ?.... Im also curious how you came to the conclusion that some are treating this as such. No one here has taken light to this, and he is well liked by many, yet they have said the same thing as many have. If anyone is throwing the comparing in here, it is you ken !, No one here is treating this as drugs as such, if it was about drugs, then im sure many would have more to say than what has been said... For example "I hope he gets years on his back side" with no dought many threats and "dont drop the soap homie" attitude towards it. No one has time for a drug mule, they get what they deserve, and any extra's thrown in, while in prison. Drugs puts children and adults at risk, this is putting our hobby at risk of slander, theres a huge diffrence.

2) Do you have proof of this ?, from my understanding it would have cost sven to. Who is to say that it is "just" the buyer who is cutting corners ?... Maybe you have just had some snotty nosed kid, but not everyone in the hobby will cut corners, hence why many are annoyed here at sven !


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I would like to point out here that although shipping through the mail is not legal nor is it right..... *I believe going to prison for this is a far worst punishment than someone should endure for such a crime.* Not only was he ripped from his life in Germany for 6 months already but now he will go to prison for another 6 months for shipping captive bred tarantulas through the mail. I am not saying what he did was right just that what he did should be a fine and not have him have to endure prison.* I know people here in the US who have done far worst and things that hurt other people but are not in prison for it.*
> 
> *Also the person who asked him to do it this way is not even in trouble.* Sven could have said no but at the* same time Sven did not think he was the one breaking law in the US but the guy recieving it.* The person recieveing the order is the one saving money doing it this way not the shipper (Sven). *Sven did it this way at request of the buyer. Now that buyer got caught and decided to help entrap Sven to get off himself.*
> 
> ...


1. would you feel the same if he was smuggling tigers and got caught? If you belive this then campain for punishments that fit the bill.

2. well lifes a bitch isn't it. I know people who get away with the same smuggling crime as swen and have yet to ever be caught....so what. compareing crimes and punsihment is totally irrelavent.

3. I find this also a tad odd and feel they should also get a punishment but then I don't make the law so again some are lucky some are not, we just have to live with it.

4. lol I believe this about as much as I believe that if I eat silver foil my turds will come out in a shiny suit. He knew dam well what he was doing was wrong hense his guilty plea.

5. more fool swen then and btw this was not entrapment in any way what so ever. If it was then the case would have got thrown out of court also if it was entrapment then did his defence not argue this?

6. I don't think this is the case at all. I think I can almost garintee that once back in germany he will be breeding and sell his spiders again.

7. see point 3


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I see your point to an extent only though. Will this really stop things? Are suppliers making tons of money? I think not. Many are treating this like a drug crime or some such thing. This is not drugs and the suppliers are not getting rich, just making a little money. I think the buyers(also suppliers) are the ones that are driving this more than the suppliers. *The suppliers are more than willing to sell it legally....its the buyers that are demanding it cheaper and illegal. The Suppliers are just giving thier customers what they want as they know they will move to the next supplier if they don't.* This business does not make a ton of money so sometimes you are more willing to bend to survive.
> 
> I am not saying the suppliers are not guilty just that I think the buyers are the more guilty parties.
> 
> Also I don't think this stops suppliers from doing this....it only stops them from being tricked into flying to the US for the grand opening of someones shop


Im sorry but all a supplier has to say is no, and if they all did this then there is no problem. Off course buyers always want it cheaper but if all the suppliers would just hold firm and say "sorry but it is not possible due to the import fees" then it would not mater if the buyer did move on to the next supplier would it, as the answer they would get is the same as the last.
So regardless if a buyer wants them sent out illegally it is still entirely the fault of the supplier if he chooses to do so and gets caught.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> Also I would like to add that Sven had a lawyer that worked for the state also I am sure. He was probably appointed a lawyer and that lawyer is the one that decides who to question or not question ...not Sven.


That seems strange Ken, did Sven not have a fund that was being donated too for a paid legal representative?.

I wonder if they played this to the judge in place of good cross examination it would have worked.

YouTube - ‪Clutch - Open Up the Border Demo‬‏


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> 1. would you feel the same if he was smuggling tigers and got caught? If you belive this then campain for punishments that fit the bill.


sorry BP but i have to quote you here


> so what. compareing crimes and punsihment is totally irrelavent.


sending spiders by mail service in mainland Europe is legal.....sending Tigers by mail is not legal between any countries



Baldpoodle said:


> 2. well lifes a ***** isn't it. I know people who get away with the same smuggling crime as sven and have yet to ever be caught....so what. compareing crimes and punsihment is totally irrelavent.


i agree, comparing crimes and punishment is totally irrelevant and may i refer you to your first statement? 




Baldpoodle said:


> 3. I find this also a tad odd and feel they should also get a punishment but then I don't make the law so again some are lucky some are not, we just have to live with it.


seeing as how the importer of livestock into the US has to fulfill the same requirements by US law it seems a little more than odd you have to agree.....or not



Baldpoodle said:


> 4. lol I believe this about as much as I believe that if I eat silver foil my turds will come out in a shiny suit. He knew dam well what he was doing was wrong hense his guilty plea.


you are totally entitled to your opinion BP, but stating categorically why he plead guilty is just conjecture 



Baldpoodle said:


> 5. more fool swen then and btw this was not entrapment in any way what so ever. If it was then the case would have got thrown out of court also if it was entrapment then did his defence not argue this?


again, conjecture, if the US law enforcement ordered a shipment without stating intent and then broke the law by not obtaining the correct import paperwork themselves , CITES are worldwide regulations and seeing as the US signed up for it even law enforcement agencies are as bound by it as anyone.
what his defense counsel did or did not argue isnt at this point known, unless you can point me in the direction of the court transcripts? 



Baldpoodle said:


> 6. I don't think this is the case at all. I think I can almost garintee that once back in germany he will be breeding and sell his spiders again.


i hope he does



Baldpoodle said:


> 7. see point 3


see all above :2thumb:


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Oderus said:


> YouTube - ‪Clutch - Open Up the Border Demo‬‏


Totally off topic here, although the Mrs. sisters husband produced that haha.


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## KenTheBugGuy (May 24, 2011)

*hmmm*

I think some of you totally missed the point. I might have miss stated the drug thing...I did not mean people on the boards are treating it like a drug case I meant the people working the case. They went after the supplier not the persons eliciting for it. In this business its the person buying the animals that ask to have them ship them in the mail not the seller. In a drug case its the other way around the drug suppliers are usually pushers. 

What I am saying is that busting Sven does not stop this from happening in my opinion. I am not saying don't be mad at Sven or that he did anything right, I am saying if they really wanted to stop this they would go after the people eliciting people for this crime. Example .....I get an email atleast once every 2 or 3 days from someone in another country wanting me to ship them stuff in the mail. I say no and tell them how much it cost to export legal, so you know what those people do? they move on to next guy and ask him the same question till they find someone that will. This has still continued after Sven was busted. 





Oderus said:


> That seems strange Ken, did Sven not have a fund that was being donated too for a paid legal representative?.


I am not positive if he had a state lawyer or even how much money anyone raised for him. So who knows for sure till more info is released.



Lucybug said:


> 2) Do you have proof of this ?, from my understanding it would have cost sven to. Who is to say that it is "just" the buyer who is cutting corners ?... Maybe you have just had some snotty nosed kid, but not everyone in the hobby will cut corners, hence why many are annoyed here at sven !


Lucy yes I am sure as I do legal imports. I am the one that pays all the fees not the seller. We have really large import fees on this side. Broker cost, plane ticket, bond, import licence, fish and wildlife fees. In the end it cost us about 1000 dollars to import the animals legally here in the states. Thats why people here try to do it illegal is to save that money. Sven did not seek someone out that would avoid the fees the guy here did. As I said above Sven is not innocent and could have said no but I believe the more guilty party is they guy eliciting for this.

I want to also point out I don't like when people ship this way either. It hurts my business. I blame the person that imports it more though as he is the one that hurts my business the most. He gets these animals at a reduced rate then can turn around and sell them for less than me meaning I loose business just because I imported legally. Now I am not ever going to start doing it illegal but you can see how that might presuade some to start just to keep pace with the guy here doing it illegal. That statement does not mean the supplier is not guilty as he is ....I am just saying the buyer should have punishment and a higher punishment if they wish to stop this.


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## Lucybug (May 10, 2011)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> I think some of you totally missed the point. I might have miss stated the drug thing...I did not mean people on the boards are treating it like a drug case I meant the people working the case. They went after the supplier not the persons eliciting for it. In this business its the person buying the animals that ask to have them ship them in the mail not the seller. In a drug case its the other way around the drug suppliers are usually pushers.
> 
> What I am saying is that busting Sven does not stop this from happening in my opinion. I am not saying don't be mad at Sven or that he did anything right, I am saying if they really wanted to stop this they would go after the people eliciting people for this crime. Example .....I get an email atleast once every 2 or 3 days from someone in another country wanting me to ship them stuff in the mail. I say no and tell them how much it cost to export legal, so you know what those people do? they move on to next guy and ask him the same question till they find someone that will. This has still continued after Sven was busted.
> 
> ...


 
Ken, id like to thankyou for your honest and well put answer 

I understand completly what you are saying, it wont stop here ofcourse, but the main thing is, justice was served. I can appriciate that you are a dealer in the states  and i couldnt imagine the strain it has on you, when it comes to illegal imports, and i really hope the best turn out for you ken i really do, i know you put alot of your time into helping others, and what not. I do appoligise for my mood swing comments :blush:


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## KenTheBugGuy (May 24, 2011)

Lucybug said:


> Ken, id like to thankyou for your honest and well put answer
> 
> I understand completly what you are saying, it wont stop here ofcourse, but the main thing is, justice was served. I can appriciate that you are a dealer in the states  and i couldnt imagine the strain it has on you, when it comes to illegal imports, and i really hope the best turn out for you ken i really do, i know you put alot of your time into helping others, and what not. I do appoligise for my mood swing comments :blush:


No worries Lucy just a debate


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> sorry BP but i have to quote you here


no probs I don't take offence to such actions.


[email protected] said:


> sending spiders by mail service in mainland Europe is legal.....sending Tigers by mail is not legal between any countries


Ah but the case is not sending sending the spiders across mainland europe though is it. Also I think sending spiders by post is a bit of a gray area when it comes to the legal side of it, and much may come down to the packing. I also know that even though no 'offical' CITES paperwork is need in the transportation of CITES species between the EU I do know of people who have come unstuck because they never had a decloration stateing that their CITES animals were captive bred or not. This decloration can come in the form of a scrape of paper which to me is abit pointless. The point with the tigers sure a bit of a leap but I feel that the attitude seems to be by many that just because they were spiders any punisihment given should be of a lesser extent.





[email protected] said:


> i agree, comparing crimes and punishment is totally irrelevant and may i refer you to your first statement?


you are quite right and I should of explained more fully.



[email protected] said:


> seeing as how the importer of livestock into the US has to fulfill the same requirements by US law it seems a little more than odd you have to agree.....or not


course I agree like I said already, but even though these people seemingly got off scot free does it mean that swen should? It may just be they were after the supplier not the buyer in this in a hope to put other suppliers off in the future. Email them and ask.



[email protected] said:


> you are totally entitled to your opinion BP, but stating categorically why he plead guilty is just conjecture


conjecture that may be but if anyone thinks that swen was not awhere of the import law and didn't think he was doing anything a little naughty, then I feel they are only fooling themselfs or are thicker than pig poo. 


[email protected] said:


> again, conjecture, if the US law enforcement ordered a shipment without stating intent and then broke the law by not obtaining the correct import paperwork themselves , CITES are worldwide regulations and seeing as the US signed up for it even law enforcement agencies are as bound by it as anyone.


No this is not conjecture at all because(from wiki):-


> In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.


With your example undercover policeing would not have a chance would it. A bit of a leap here but if it is illegal to buy and sell crack cocane then an undercover officer who would buying the stuff would also be fair game for prosicution, as they are also bound by the same laws as us also he could also be accused of entrapment.


[email protected] said:


> what his defense counsel did or did not argue isnt at this point known, unless you can point me in the direction of the court transcripts?


hense my question mark at the end. 



[email protected] said:


> i hope he does


Me too got nought againts the bloke, just do not think it is so bad that he is getting punnished for his crime.



[email protected] said:


> see all above :2thumb:


likewise:2thumb:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

KenTheBugGuy said:


> What I am saying is that busting Sven does not stop this from happening in my opinion. I am not saying don't be mad at Sven or that he did anything right, I am saying if they really wanted to stop this they would go after the people eliciting people for this crime. Example .....I get an email atleast once every 2 or 3 days from someone in another country wanting me to ship them stuff in the mail. *I say no* and tell them how much it cost to export legal, so you know what those people do? they move on to next guy and ask him the same question till they find someone that will. This has still continued after Sven was busted.



Of course it wont stop it happening, like any crime busting one will not stop them all.


you say no! and there you have it, we just need more suppliers like you then. Just because people ask for it doesn't mean they should get it and this IMHO oppinion provides no excuse for the supplier who does what so ever.



KenTheBugGuy said:


> Lucy yes I am sure as I do legal imports. I am the one that pays all the fees not the seller. We have really large import fees on this side. Broker cost, plane ticket, bond, import licence, fish and wildlife fees. In the end it cost us about 1000 dollars to import the animals legally here in the states. Thats why people here try to do it illegal is to save that money. Sven did not seek someone out that would avoid the fees the guy here did. As I said above Sven is not innocent and could have said no but I believe the more guilty party is they guy eliciting for this.



maybe they want to put off a few suppliers and then go for some buyers at a later date, who knows. fact is he did wrong he got punished and that is how the cookie crumbles. It maybe a bit unjust that the buyers got away with it this time (or did they?), but again thats life eh.





KenTheBugGuy said:


> I want to also point out I don't like when people ship this way either. It hurts my business. I blame the person that imports it more though as he is the one that hurts my business the most. He gets these animals at a reduced rate then can turn around and sell them for less than me meaning I loose business just because I imported legally. Now I am not ever going to start doing it illegal but you can see how that might presuade some to start just to keep pace with the guy here doing it illegal. That statement does not mean the supplier is not guilty as he is ....I am just saying the buyer should have punishment and a higher punishment if they wish to stop this.


 If I was you I would be angry at the supplier who is prepared to ship the animals in a way to avoid the import taxes becuse like your good self all they have to say in no.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Although it does not excuse Sven's actions I do know some US buyers can be quite pushy.

I was asked if I would post some stuff to the US a long time back by a few persons (when others in UK I know were doing the very same) and upon telling one chap I would have no problems if the paper work was payed for, he told me it was quite cheap really and the big dealers lied about costs and he could handle it his side no problems nothing for me to worry about.., righttt :hmm: 

As it so happen I never had the stock he wanted but the alarm bells had already rang with his statements about it being no big deal, no doubt he also moved on to try others, as BP has said if no one would be agreeable to doing what they would see is wrong with a little research then there would be no issue to answer.


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