# Veterinary ethics.



## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Have been doing this hobby for quite a few years. So had my own animal health experiences and also been asked for advice from others. Longer I have been in the hobby and the more I have heard of health issues in reptiles which usually end up at vets. Almost all of which don't seem to end on a happy note. Have got into another conversation with somebody this week about a poorly Bosc with RI that the owner is spending hundreds on at vets with nil improvement. Got to say this and other stories I have heard about where others have spent hundreds, thousands on vet bills makes me question the ethics of the vet profession. Just seems that virtually all vets don't have a clue about reptiles and are not competent to charge fees for them dabbling and experimenting in the treatment of reptiles. Seems to be a case of reptile owners being cash cows for some vets.


----------



## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Personally I think most vets, regardless of the animal rip people off. The vets where our German Shepard is registered always state the consultation fees and then the medication, so whilst sitting in the waiting room you get to hear what others are being charged. I calculated that on that occasion the consultation fees came out at around £300 / hour, and there were three vets on rota. 

But it's also the medication that is overly inflated. A few years back we were charged £35 for a weeks worth of tablets for our dog. I googled the product and found several on-line companies that supply the same drug having received the script direct from the vets, at a fraction, ie under £10, of the cost. I challenged the vet, and after a heated discussion put me on a scheme they run where you are charged the cost from their supplier so they don't make any profit on the drugs. It was still more than the online company, but only by a couple of quid. The markup the vets place on the drugs was horrendous, and I've seen an increasing rise in the threshold insurance companies expect you to pay before any claim is considered. Direct line's threshold is £195, but with any one off treatment / consultation averaging £100 you can't recover any of that cost.

In 33 years of keeping snakes I've only ever required the assistance from a vet three times. The first was with a garter snake that had thiamine poisoning through my inexperience as I was following the advice from the pet shop back in 1986. Multiple injections later and the snake just died. The vet was fair, often just charging for the shots and no consultation fees other than the first. The second time was with my old male cornsnake which has an eye infection. Again, one consultation fee, the others were free, plus the cost of a tube of ointment. The snake made a full recovery over three month period. Lastly, different vet, and my 21 year old royal. It had developed an abscess in its throat, possibly after taking a rat down in the wrong direction. Vet charged for every consultation visit, and for the shots. Sadly it didn't work and the snake died. I was advised afterwards by a well known herpetologiest that the snake had been given a broad based antibiotic where it should have been given one more suited for the infection (he did mention the product but I've slept since then !), and he felt there would have been a good chance the snake would have lived.

Personally I feel that it's our duty as keepers to try and control things ourselves so that vets are a last resort. Often things like RI's are down to poor husbandry rather than some random occurrence. With better understanding of the reptiles needs, regular cleaning and precautions when handling (it does annoy me when you see so many videos on Youtube where people show one snake to the camera and then another without washing their hands in between.)


----------



## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

The cost involved in training to become a vet is eye watering. Not only do you have the usual living/tuition costs involved as a student, but every holiday is spent on work placements and/or rotations as you reach the final year. None of these are paid -eg some farmers, might give free b&b and meals, but certainly not all. Even large well visited animals centres only offer a subsidised meal when there.

The running costs of a vet practice are high. The cost of specialist machinery etc. Yes, drugs are dear especially given that for humans it is under £10 per item (in very much larger quantities) and it is surprising how many people don't actually pay for prescriptions.

The sheer dedication of those working in the veterinary profession is underestimated. A reptile keeper can find practices where there is a vet with additional qualifications for reptiles.


----------



## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> The cost involved in training to become a vet is eye watering. Not only do you have the usual living/tuition costs involved as a student, but every holiday is spent on work placements and/or rotations as you reach the final year. None of these are paid -eg some farmers, might give free b&b and meals, but certainly not all. Even large well visited animals centres only offer a subsidised meal when there.
> 
> The running costs of a vet practice are high. The cost of specialist machinery etc. Yes, drugs are dear especially given that for humans it is under £10 per item (in very much larger quantities) and it is surprising how many people don't actually pay for prescriptions.
> 
> The sheer dedication of those working in the veterinary profession is underestimated. A reptile keeper can find practices where there is a vet with additional qualifications for reptiles.


I don't doubt the points you mention... But IMO the only justification for marking up a product almost 300% is just greed.... In the point I raised, if the online company can supply the same drug from the same manufacture for £7 and still make a profit, then I'm sure the vets could reduce their prices. If they are being charged more then the service that provides vets with the medication are ripping vets off and vets should go direct. I also believe that most vets incomes form from commercial (equestrian and farm livestock) rather than domestic, so I'm sure they soon recoup the cost of the training...

I agree that its often hard to find a vet who has specialised in reptiles, and in some cases the fact it is an exotic means that they see an opportunity to charge more. In two out of my three instances, the first vet who did have some reptile training said that the main reason he didn't keep charging for repeat consultations or examinations was because it was a welcome change from cats, dogs and small mammals.


----------



## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

A practice based in a built up area or inner city area is not going to have equine or farm clients. Not sure why you think they are going to get more money from them as they would always be 'home visits'.

An employed vet will be paying off their student loan/debts out of their salary for many years. Yes they start on a relatively high salary compared to other graduates (obviously excluding banking/finance) but they have been at university for five or six years.

As for the drugs we can only speculate.


----------



## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

Malc said:


> I don't doubt the points you mention... But IMO the only justification for marking up a product almost 300% is just greed.... *No, you're paying for convenance, you expect to be able to get what your animal needs when you need it. There is a cost to this. All drugs are perishable and vets stock for all eventualities. On line suppliers don't. * In the point I raised, if the online company can supply the same drug from the same manufacture for £7 and still make a profit, then I'm sure the vets could reduce their prices. *I'm sure you pay more for a packet of paracetamol in a garage than you would in superdrug, but convenance costs.* If they are being charged more then the service that provides vets with the medication are ripping vets off and vets should go direct. *If it bothers you that much get the prescription and then order the drugs on line, be prepared to wait for them* I also believe that most vets incomes form from commercial (equestrian and farm livestock) rather than domestic, so I'm sure they soon recoup the cost of the training... *You have no knowledge of the profession and nothing to base this on? *
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that its often hard to find a vet who has specialised in reptiles *No it's not, but the bill will be high. As you're paying for experience that has been gained whilst doing many low paid positions. The charge for a corn snake would be the same as if it was any zoo animal. Would you be happy to pay a consultation of £500, I doubt it. So you get what you pay for.*, and in some cases the fact it is an exotic means that they see an opportunity to charge more. *Yep, completely agree with this.* In two out of my three instances, the first vet who did have some reptile training said that the main reason he didn't keep charging for repeat consultations or examinations was because it was a welcome change from cats, dogs and small mammals.


I have to say moaning about something that you have little to no knowledge about is far from constructive


----------



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I have always found that treatment for my reptiles was far cheaper than my dog. Whether they have worked is a moot point but that`s probably because the reptiles were more poorly than they showed at the time.

My dog is on daily medication for life. The vet writes me a prescription for a small price and sends it to the online suppplier`s. I buy it at a fraction of the price. The vet actually suggested this.


----------



## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

My local vet is brilliant. Haven't had to take any reptiles to the vet yet but they've been really good with all my other animals. I've never found them to be greedy or got the impression they're trying to get as much money out of me as possible, in fact the complete opposite.

An example, when my pup Dexter was 6 months old he one day started scratching his ear and shaking his head. I assumed an ear infection so made an appointment for that day and took him along. This was a Sunday and they are open 2 hours for emergencies only 
The locum vet looked in his ear and saw nothing obvious so advised me to keep and eye on it and come back if no improvement. He didn't charge me a penny. 

Next day Dexter was still the same so I took him back. My normal vet had a look and spotted a tiny hair right inside his ear canal. With the help of me and the nurse we held Dexter still and she managed to get the hair out with a pair of long tongs. Again, they did not charge me a penny. 

Dexter was fine after that! :2thumb:


----------



## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Probably not on subject but I liked my old vet. He reminded me of James Herriot. He never used to put gloves on to clean my dogs anal glands.

Lovely vet but I never shook his hands !


----------



## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> The cost involved in training to become a vet is eye watering. Not only do you have the usual living/tuition costs involved as a student, but every holiday is spent on work placements and/or rotations as you reach the final year. None of these are paid -eg some farmers, might give free b&b and meals, but certainly not all. Even large well visited animals centres only offer a subsidised meal when there.
> 
> The running costs of a vet practice are high. The cost of specialist machinery etc. Yes, drugs are dear especially given that for humans it is under £10 per item (in very much larger quantities) and it is surprising how many people don't actually pay for prescriptions.
> 
> ...



Hear what you are saying about individual training costs to vets. However, a particular trend in recent years is the takeover of some practices by growing corporate groups. These are then in position to monopolise local areas resulting in quite poor pay for vets. Yet on the other hand they are looking to constantly raise costs and boost profits.


----------



## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

harry python said:


> Hear what you are saying about individual training costs to vets. However, a particular trend in recent years is the takeover of some practices by growing corporate groups. These are then in position to monopolise local areas resulting in quite poor pay for vets. Yet on the other hand they are looking to constantly raise costs and boost profits.


Vets £25,000 - £30,000


----------



## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

harry python said:


> Hear what you are saying about individual training costs to vets. However, a particular trend in recent years is the takeover of some practices by growing corporate groups. These are then in position to monopolise local areas resulting in quite poor pay for vets. Yet on the other hand they are looking to constantly raise costs and boost profits.


The corporate ones offer higher salaries, cpd days with hotels paid for, and mileage. They don't necessarily advertise which practices they own as the practices usually still trade under their own names, bar say those that are franchises in [email protected] for example.

Currently practices are struggling to recruit.


----------



## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

GT2540 said:


> Vets £25,000 - £30,000



Not particularly generous compared to the years of training and associated costs.


----------



## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

GT2540 said:


> Vets £25,000 - £30,000


Nearer £30,000 starting after graduating.


----------



## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

harry python said:


> Not particularly generous compared to the years of training and associated costs.[/QUOTE
> 
> The bills would then be higher.


----------



## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

GT2540 said:


> Vets £25,000 - £30,000


£35K - £65K

https://jobs.vettimes.co.uk/jobs/veterinary-surgeon/-60-000-69-999/

Average based on Indeeds survey of 1300 vets over the past 18 months - £44,500
https://www.indeed.co.uk/salaries/veterinarian-Salaries,-England


----------



## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Malc said:


> £35K - £65K
> 
> https://jobs.vettimes.co.uk/jobs/veterinary-surgeon/-60-000-69-999/
> 
> ...


£65,000 - night time and those with many years of experience.

£44,500 - the average so the newly qualified and those of more mature years.


----------



## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> £65,000 - night time and those with many years of experience.
> 
> £44,500 - the average so the newly qualified and those of more mature years.[/QUOTE When you are getting up to 65K I can understand the size of the bills. However, with the power some of these growing group practices are exerting in certain areas I doubt they pay that much.


----------



## GT2540 (Jan 31, 2012)

harry python said:


> Shellsfeathers&fur said:
> 
> 
> > £65,000 - night time and those with many years of experience.
> ...


----------



## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

GT2540 said:


> harry python said:
> 
> 
> > My wife works for one of the larger vets and the wage is nowhere close to this. When you check the link most are for NHS trusts, which as far as I know don't employee vets?
> ...


----------



## SpiritSerpents (Mar 20, 2011)

As a veterinary technician, licensed, who has worked under corporate as well as a non-profit shelter... I am sick and tired of the whining about cost.


You know why your meds and care don't cost as much? *insurance*. You want to know when my vet friend finally, *finally* paid off her student debt? She was 45 years old. You want to know why things cost so much as well? Rent/mortgages for the building, utilities, staff, supplies, training, equipment that can cost up to $100k for a particular unit, insurance, licensing, maintenance. You want to whine about the $300 for anesthesia that is part of your pet's surgical procedure?? That is *nothing* on the cost of the iso/sevo, class II drugs, monitoring equipment, paying me to stand there very carefully making sure I keep your pet at a level that is not-conscious and also not-dead. I stood and monitored 6 hours of a single anesthetic procedure on saturday. 



I had an eggbound corn have surgery to remove her stuck egg ($500) and the next day she threw a bloodclot that killed her tail and she had to have an emergency amputation ($400). Almost a thousand dollars over two days and I consider that extremely cheap, because I *know* what goes on with vet med. 



Does corporate suck? yes. Are they greedy bastards? Yes. But not as much of that greed is going on to you as you think. Instead, it comes from our wages, from the vet's commissions. As an employee of corporate you are paid a pittance. And we *still* go out of our way to help clients find ways to afford things. The number of 'free first feline exams' I entered for people last week was ridiculous, even as I was trying to run two booked vets and a booked tech appointment schedule by myself. I don't get paid enough. And if you want to whine about vet hospitals not offering payment plans, blame the people who never followed through and cost clinics thousands and thousands of dollars in lost revenue that would have gone towards salaries and restocking.


----------



## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Having a good symbiotic, relationship with your vet is key. 

There must be trust on both sides and I can honestly say that I have been fortunate to have had some extremely good vets look after my animals - I consider them friends and I have never felt that they have charged me unreasonable amounts. 

Having said this, I am sure there are 'bad' vets as there is in every profession but if you feel this is the case, seek another vet.


----------



## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I think we are so far removed from medical expenses here in the UK that we fail to appreciate the true cost (rightly or wrongly) of treatment, consultation and medication be it for ourselves or our animals. 


I don't begrudge my vet charging for his expertise, time, treatment and the medication he prescribes if it means my dog or snake isn't in pain.



Malc said:


> Personally I think most vets, regardless of the animal rip people off. The vets where our German Shepard is registered always state the consultation fees and then the medication, so whilst sitting in the waiting room you get to hear what others are being charged. I calculated that on that occasion the consultation fees came out at around £300 / hour, and there were three vets on rota.
> 
> But it's also the medication that is overly inflated. A few years back we were charged £35 for a weeks worth of tablets for our dog. I googled the product and found several on-line companies that supply the same drug having received the script direct from the vets, at a fraction, ie under £10, of the cost. I challenged the vet, and after a heated discussion put me on a scheme they run where you are charged the cost from their supplier so they don't make any profit on the drugs. It was still more than the online company, but only by a couple of quid. The markup the vets place on the drugs was horrendous, and I've seen an increasing rise in the threshold insurance companies expect you to pay before any claim is considered. Direct line's threshold is £195, but with any one off treatment / consultation averaging £100 you can't recover any of that cost.
> 
> ...


----------



## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Having a good symbiotic, relationship with your vet is key.
> 
> There must be trust on both sides and I can honestly say that I have been fortunate to have had some extremely good vets look after my animals - I consider them friends and I have never felt that they have charged me unreasonable amounts.
> 
> Having said this, I am sure there are 'bad' vets as there is in every profession but if you feel this is the case, seek another vet.


Totally agree with this. My vets are amazing. It's a small practice with just one main vet and a few nurses. They are all really friendly and welcoming. I know all their names and they know mine. They are friends. They take great care of my pets and I do believe they treat them as if they were there own (while they are in their care). 

I've got insurance for them but so far not needed to use it. I've had my cats neutered there and also Dexter was castrated there and had a baby tooth removed that did not want to fall out! The cost was very reasonable each time but more importantly the service was amazing. The incision sites were so clean and neat every time and all the follow up appointments were great with no issues.

last year one of my cats developed a gunky eye and so I took her along. She had a thorough checkup and got some eye drops. The bill was £75 and the tube of eye drops was tiny! This did seem like a really high price but as I mentioned in my previous post, Dexter then went on to have a couple of cost free visits oh and he also had his anal glands emptied a few months back and again they didn't charge me so i can't really complain :no1:


----------



## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

There are 3 reptile vets within 1/2 hour bus journeys from me- one in Rochford, one in Wickford & one behind Southend Hospital. The only really expensive one is the one in Wickford, & I suspect that's because they're the best known, being the longest serving reptile vet in the Southend/Basildon area of Essex, having been in business for 30+ years. The other 2 are not particularly expensive at all, & I can afford their fees on a low wage. All 3 are very good vets.


----------

