# Interbreeding



## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

I have started this topic to follow on from what had beeing discussed in a previous thred, after Frogman955 suggested we should let the original thred get back on track and start a new one to debate this.

Bellow i have coppied the staring posts (hope you dont mind RON) to get things going.

Lets keep it friendly people

Dave


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

RON MAGPIE
On the subject of the last few posts, sorry anyone who doesn't agree, but I still think inbreeding small groups is a bad idea. Yes, a lot of populations are pretty isolated- but even that is often down to habitat destruction- the frogs have nowhere to go, so they breed with what they've got. That's not 'good', it's necessity. In captivity, the situation is worse; the same breeder keeps knocking out tads, the same people buy them- and the end result is a very limited gene pool. As I have said before this is not good for any other animal on Earth, I fail to see how darts are somehow the evolutionary and genetic exception.

KNIGHTY

Im completely with you on this one Ron. I would do all i can to avoid using parents with siblings, or siblings with siblings. Gentetics are a topic that is above me, but i am fully aware that interbreeding is not good on a long term basis. As a soul keeper of captive bred specamins i know by the time a frog reaches me it could be a fair few generations down the line of interbred off spring. Breeders are breeders and im sure that they do not constantly purifie the bloodline which is why i will source my frogs from seperate local on the hope they have come from different farms.

When people refer to frogs in there natural habitats it is a completly different subject from in captivity. By the time the offspring of parents A are old enough to breed the chances of interbreeding is greatly reduced due to age difference, habbitat destruction, preditation, the terratorial nature of these frogs, death and the presence of off spring from other parents. Even if a related offspring did breed it is highly unlikley that the interbreeding would carry on for generation after generation. Yes there will be some level of interbreeding but the chances of consistant related offspring readily producing are very low. Lets not forget isolated populations are not just 10 or 20 frogs.

Nature has a way of balancing its self and im sure that constant breeding of related siblings would ultimately result in unhealthy frogs that would not be able to survive or continue the bloodline, thus restoring the balance.
(I need to stop watching starwars lol)


On a side note to this, but still related, do you not think that through a frogs natural instinct to breed this is how new morphs have risen? We are all aware that dendrobates will happily create what the hobby refers to as "hybrids" and im sure that this has and does happen constantly in there natural habitat. 

I must point out that im not using this as a statment to justify or promote mixed enclosures, or the creation of hybrids. Natural selection is one thing, a man and a viv playing god is another.

Dave


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

And so it begins... ;-)

Tiger

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

vukic said:


> And so it begins... ;-)
> 
> Tiger
> 
> Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2



I'll go first ;-)

It's always surprised me that there is even a debate about this to be honest. With virtually any other captive animal there is an awareness of inbreeding and the potential issues it can lead to down the line. As special as we like to think they are, dendrobatids are no different. I didn't want to clutter Glenn's thread with one of my diatribes, but now it seems I have free rein ;-)

Unless people have bred sibling to sibling over lets say 10 generations, and looked for effects, they really cannot comment on whether or not inbreeding produces negative effects. The sensible presumption on the basis of what is known, therefore, would be that it does. Anecdotal evidence also seems to support this presumption in species/morphs in the UK hobby with very small numbers in the founder population.

Effects can be subtle - Inbred frogs will not come out with 10 legs... Early effects will be reduced fecundity, unusual pigmentation, fluctuating asymmetry, proportional differences in the size of features (e.g. eyes). Of course, these may occur and be selected out in natural populations, but with inbreeding they become more prevalent.

From those who deny that inbreeding can affect dendrobatids, there seem to be three general justifications: 

First - Okay, inbreeding happens, but by bringing in frogs with 'new blood' occasionally the effects can be mitigated: 

For some species/morphs that were imported in large numbers, the probability of randomly bringing in unrelated frogs to achieve this might be quite high (this comes down to probability because, of course, very few people keep good records), but for those with small founder populations the likelihood of randomly selecting truly unrelated individuals is clearly much smaller/negligible.

Second, darts are 'immune' to inbreeding because they are less complex than the types of organisms that we are familiar with as examples of negative inbreeding effects - e.g. humans **resists urge to make reference to any particular populations!!**:

This is simply not the case. In the olden days, it was thought that animals from the basal metazoa essentially through to mammals were somewhat protected from homozygosity-related issues simply because there is less to go wrong. This has been shown repeatedly to be too simplistic. Animals even down to the level of worms and molluscs actively avoid mating with kin, presumably to minimise inbreeding effects. One example, there are many: Larval settlement preference maximizes genetic mixi... [Mol Ecol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI 

Third, there are isolated populations in the wild, so even if there are effects, these must remain below an acceptable degree of severity?:

Three important points regarding the existence of isolated populations in the wild vs captive populations; 1) Sheer numbers. Even isolated populations probably have orders of magnitude more individuals in them than our captive populations. 2) Gene flow. Naturally isolated populations are pockets removed from larger populations - sub-samples of the original larger demographic. The genetic material started off diverse and is being progressively restricted. In captivity, when starting with sometimes single figures numbers of animals, you begin with a highly restricted sub-set of genetic material from the already isolated population sample. There is no reason to believe (that I am aware of) that the small number of frogs collected represents the genetic diversity of the isolated population. 3) The fact that isolated populations exist and, at this moment in time, appear to be healthy, does not mean that they are not in decline over evolutionarily time. They may well ultimately succumb to the effects of in-breeding.


Essentially, I cannot see any reason why dendrobatids would not be affected by inbreeding, as is the case for most other organisms. The presumption, in the absence of contradictory evidence, must be that they are. I understand that, things being as they are, it can be difficult to a) identify the lineage of your frogs and b) locate unrelated frogs to mate with them but hey, that's life... It doesn't alter the reality of the situation. What would really help would be for people to find, keep and pass on accurate and detailed information on the frogs they keep and sell. Particularly when the 'bringing in new blood' strategy relies heavily on WC imports that appear, themselves, to be struggling (e.g. Panamanian Dendrobatid Research 2013 - Page 3 - Dendroboard highlighted by Stu on DW). A little bit of effort on our part would make a huge difference, I think.

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Dave I think to morphs breeding together,such as the overlap in the Anchyana(sp?) valley,Colombia does lead to cross overs/hybrids if you like.Here we have a documented hybrid betwixt two species,histionica and Lehmannii.But I don't think that is the whole story on any level.The island pumilllio populations of the Bocas del Toro probably show differentiation because of inbreeding,ie being cut off from other frogs to outcross to. We even see different morphs on tiny islands there,where populations get segregated,ie bastimentos. 

We have no tracking system in place in the UK for our frogs,we have very little paperwork,we have very very few breeders keeping more than one tank of a particular morph. It can be very difficult to source unrelated stock of a particular morph here. Alot of folks do buy a group of frogs from one breeder,so perpetuating inbreeding. All these are huge negatives to us doing our absolute best for our frogs in my view. We are very far from an ideal situation here.Changing things will be a huge challenge,I'm all for that by the way I think we could do much better. This will entail a group effort and some form of start off point. 

As I mentioned before I have a group of sibling leucs breeding,it's not an ideal situation,but in this case it is fairly easy to put someone in touch with another breeder if they want to grab unrelated frogs. but I guess I'm open to criticism for breeding them. But then we get to the nutshell of all this,for me anyway.Without any records kept are those other leucs actually related to mine or not,of course nobody knows...period.

We also have a situation where for alot of darts actually finding a sexed frog to pair up with(hopefully unrelated) is hard at best.

I think to really achieve anything and tackle this problem, and I do see it as a problem of the future,if not already!! The record keeping is where this needs to start. But we must bare in mind that the majority of keepers are really pet keepers,not hard core dart freaks and that we live here,in a small country,where finding a genuine site specific dart frog with known collection data,is near impossible. Even when one does get the chance to buy genuine site specific frogs,is there any thing to say that those are not siblings too.

This is very complex Dave,I fear this longish post hasn't scratched the surface,moving forward will be a real struggle if one really looks at the big picture here. If some of this is off topic my apologies,to me it is anything but straight forward

What I would say to finish up is that with a good few new pumillio arriving here in the last couple of years is that there is a wonderful opportunity to breed these frogs well and work together for their well being long term for all that come behind us.I think we really need to step up to the plate here as we cannot keep harvesting WC without those populations being managed in the wild,one only has to look at the possible plight of cem bastis to be more than aware of this. But will anything change will the UK hobby achieve anything of the above,hmm that's the million dollar question.Bigger countries with bigger hobbies than ours haven't fared well at making the bast of there oppurtunites either,it's not just us that are not where we should be. The long lived lines of frogs are often down to the deadication of individuals,whom keep multiple vivs of a given species/ morph.
best

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> As I mentioned before I have a group of sibling leucs breeding,it's not an ideal situation,but in this case it is fairly easy to put someone in touch with another breeder if they want to grab unrelated frogs. but I guess I'm open to criticism for breeding them.


I don't think it's about criticism Stu - hopefully not anyway. Many of my frogs are related and I'm up to at least F4 and BC 1 for some of them! As you say, it's about recognising that we could do better and doing something about it :2thumb:

Nick


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Wow they are some very interesting points on the subject, and i can agree in many ways with both.

Stu, i totally agree that without paper work it is hard to find 100% possative information and yes it does make obtaining unrelated pairs difficult. I will buy the frogs from seperate breeders,shops or forum members and althought this is no fall proof method it does greatly reduce the chances of them being related. However buying from shops is the last option i tend to use as the chances that seperate shops have not obtained the same stock is debateable. Many shops will not provide information about where they obtained the frogs and even if they do the chances are the person that they have purchased them from are just middle men, distributers. Marc at dartfrog is an exception to this as even on his site he will offer stock from different bloodlines. 

Again none of this is totally reliable (as you said in a small country with limited resources) this is just me trying to make a resonable level of effort.

The one problem i see with keeping records, or starting an online studbook is people being honest. Although you have been honest about the siblings you are breeding i dont think everyone would be that honest. It would however help if people would atleast log the shop/breeder/member that they purchased from, the date and the qty. At least this way we would have some level of traceability, even though limited.

On the removal of specamins from the wild this is a whole new topic in its self. For species preservation and captive breeding programes then i think that it is essential, however unless the circumstances are extreme, such as with Atelopus zeteki, then the collection should be carefull controlled and monitored. As for taking for the soul purpose of the pet trade this is something i dont see having any benefit to the frogs. Yes it makes it great for us to be able to have new bloodlines, but with the amount of keepers world wide i feel that being responsable and using events such as HAMM to aquire over sees stock is much more benefitial.

Nick, you have pretty much echoed my thoughts, however in much more detail, and i feel that the points you stated in response to common arguments are very hard to speak against. 

I know that interbreeding will happen sometimes even without the intention of doing so but like we all seem to have agreed on is that we need to take responsability and start to try and make a differnce. What we could start now may seem small and alot of people make argue what is the point, but in years to come our tiny bit of forward thinking could become vital.

I will work on a simple construct now, and then post a link here for you to view. Then we can adjust and edit as we all see fit to make this work.

Dave


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I suspect that the gene pools of many of the commonly kept species are small anyway.With the exceptions of auratus,pumilio and tinctorious most of the others are descended from legal or illegal imports decades ago.

We are changing the way frogs look by selectively breeding them.We chose the biggest or say brightest individuals say to breed so do they bear any relation top the wild ones? You only have to look at wild caught tinctorious to see the size differences between wild and captive ones.Is this due to inbreeding,diet,or captive environment?


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## Heart4Darts (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm not to clued up on genetics ect, but since getting into dart frogs, I've been doing a lot of reading and noticed almost everyone is against mixing darts.
I get the idea that it's because over time, the market will be flooded with messed up dart frogs, but ain't that whats happened with snakes?
I dont ever plan on messing about with breeding different types, BUT, i couldnt see the harm in it if you we're certain that you'll never plan to sell these on, and only keep them for your own use.
(which i doubt 90% of people could be certain of)


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

So here is a very basic construct.

Each frog submitted would be given a unique number (UKPF) and this number would then stay with the frog. To make it more simple frogs with unknow related status will all be given the same number so that we can work on the assumption that they are. Frogs with known relationship status would be given seperate numbers.

The records would then be traceable by species and recors would be able to be cross reference. It would even be possible to search by UKPF to show all records containing the individual.

Its a start and its basic but it is something i am prepared to fund and run if we all agree that it would help. Im sure i know a few suppliers that would also be happy to log the records, and if shops would provide information regarding there current stock we would be able to not only see who has what but an idea of where they come from.

Let me know your thoughts

Dave


Uk Poison Frogs - Home


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## Heart4Darts (Oct 10, 2009)

Seem like a really good idea, but how sure are you that it would work?
as there are loads of people breeding darts and passing them around that dont use these forums ect, so they'll have no idea about this.
which then means loads of frogs will be floating around the market with no background history of them?


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Heart4Darts said:


> Seem like a really good idea, but how sure are you that it would work?
> as there are loads of people breeding darts and passing them around that dont use these forums ect, so they'll have no idea about this.
> which then means loads of frogs will be floating around the market with no background history of them?


Yes this is one problem that any kind of record keeping would face. We would have to raise awarness of the programe and try and encouraged people to register and use the site. In an ideal world it would be the corgi of the dog world for frogs.

My mum and stepdad breed parokeets, african greys and senegals and they have a registered breeding cirtificate. This allows each bird they sell to be traced and provides a full history on the individual. Each bird they sell is issued with a certificate and a registered leg ring.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It sounds a good idea,although I dont think that its practical.You would need photographic data or some sort of tagging for each frog.It would be a little like C.I.T.E.S. in that respect.Without this it would be difficult to identify each frog in a community vivarium.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

Firstly I agree with most of what is being said in this thread, and in the original comments that were copied and pasted into the starter thread! 
I am very highly against any form of inbreeding of individuals purely because it's not needed and highly unnecessary in my personal opinion, it's not acceptable for humans to breed with their relatives (in fact it is highly frowned upon) so why is it acceptable for other species to do so? 
I know that nowadays it's practically impossible to find many individuals of certain species that haven't been inbred but I dont see why people should just basically say "Well they are inbreed already, there is nothing we can do so let's carry on", seems kind of childish and irresponsible to me and just a excuse to make a bit of money (there's nothing wrong with people making money from their surplus stock, so I am not saying that, It seems to me that money and making money seems to over take the actual animals themselves in some cases).

As for the documentation thing, I have already started this concept idea on Caudata.org to prevent further inbreeding and to keep control of bloodlines before they go spiraling out of control.

Documentation Certificate Idea to Control Tylototriton Bloodlines

I know this idea is mainly about Tylototriton species but the concept could be used for any species or genus. But like Colin said it would be very difficult, but I think it's not impossible if people started doing it now and kept data of where animals are from. Unfortunately like you will see on this thread I received a very mixed review of the idea, mostly bad from people who don't want to have restrictions on who they can sell their offspring too and how many (like Ron said, in his original comment on another thread, it prevents them from churning out millions of tadpoles). Some species in some genus's are impossible to prevent from being inbred or inbred further because individuals were just being sold constantly to any Tom, Dick or Harry that has the money. In my eyes, conservation doesn't really come into it but of course this is the pet trade, where money comes into it a lot more. 

Anyway I'm sorry I can't reply properly as I am doing this via mobile but shall update this comment when I am home


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Photos would be an obvious way to id each individual.

As with any new idea or system they take time for people to catch on. Some people will stay far away from it, while others will jump straight in. If over time the data base become large enough then i hope people would prefer to purchase registered fogs with history and documentation that to buy a frog thats history is only as true as what the retailer/farmer tells them.

The main opposition will be from the breeders that are only interested in churning out tadpoles no matter what the consiquences, as has already been stated, but the hope would be that there stock becomes less appealing.

Another advantage of the system would allow people to source out unrelated pairs, with both history and piece of mind.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

knighty said:


> Photos would be an obvious way to id each individual.


Not necessarily, all Amphibian species (lets be deliberately vague and include Caudata aswell as Anura) that don't have markings or obvious individual markings makes them harder to ID really. Mantella aurantiaca, Mantella betsileo, Tylototriton wenxianensis and various other species are practically impossible to tell apart from each other (if you look at Male to Male and vice versa individuals). 
M.betsileo and M.ebenaui are incredibly difficult to tell apart from each other (but not impossible) and they are separate species, for all we know all M.betsileo could be hybridised with M.ebenaui. The same applies for Tylototriton species which are constantly having new species discovered, some are still sold into the hobby as T.asperrimus and T.wenxianensis individuals from Wild Caught imports! But that is a different matter entirely. 



knighty said:


> As with any new idea or system they take time for people to catch on. Some people will stay far away from it, while others will jump straight in. If over time the data base become large enough then i hope people would prefer to purchase registered fogs with history and documentation that to buy a frog thats history is only as true as what the retailer/farmer tells them.
> 
> The main opposition will be from the breeders that are only interested in churning out tadpoles no matter what the consequences, as has already been stated, but the hope would be that there stock becomes less appealing.
> 
> Another advantage of the system would allow people to source out unrelated pairs, with both history and piece of mind.


In all honesty, a concept like this for these animals are near enough impossible to implement, however I will continue to try and encourage people to listen to the idea and perhaps change their minds about simply saying "OH well, why does it matter if I inbreed them further?" it will just require a lot of hard work. In the final page of the thread you will see the screen shot of the certificate I wish to try and use in the future. 

The main opposition I would like to point out though is the majority of the hobby, breeders and shops alike will and have stood against this idea of mine and other peoples. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make a difference! lol 

I look at it from a professional and conservation point of view rather than a Breeder/Pet Shop view though, I just find it morally wrong that inbreeding should be allowed, regardless of it no having an effect on individuals (a different part of the topic entirely which I need to look into more). I try and get animals from different people for breeding, hence why most of my highly endangered species I only have 2 individuals of, as I like to take my time and build up my breeding groups slowly rather than buy them all from one breeder and just breed them and sell them here there and everywhere to such an extent, that it’s practically impossible to know which is what blood line, for future breeding. 

People will disagree with what I say though, there is always some people that will but if it is wrong for one species to inbreed then why is it ok for others? :/


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

Surely a good hand could dealt by just ourselves meeting up and trading blood???? That would go someway to making a small impact. However that goes down to each individual owner to put there self out there to do it. I like to think our little frog community is a decent batch of people and want what's best for our little gems.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

terryTHEfrog said:


> Surely a good hand could dealt by just ourselves meeting up and trading blood???? That would go someway to making a small impact. However that goes down to each individual owner to put there self out there to do it. I like to think our little frog community is a decent batch of people and want what's best for our little gems.


That's true but I think what Dave would like to do (which is also what my idea is about) is trying to get all amphibian keepers to do it, not just a small group of people, the community  Which is a good place to start I will admit!


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

I agree totally on a much wider scale, but its gotta start somewhere once others see the good that's trying to be done then maybe they'll get on the bandwagon and if something is sold with papers like KC registered dog then you would rather buy one with papers then without.
It's a good thought but how it would be proved or enforced I don't know??? But a decent bunch of phib keepers on here (or something similar) trading blood to try and keep lines as best as possible is a good starting block there's plenty of shows to meet at and if going abroad to Germany and picking up a odd couple to throw in with your existing frogs can freshen things up perhaps.


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

terryTHEfrog said:


> *It's a good thought but how it would be proved or enforced I don't know???* But a decent bunch of phib keepers on here (or something similar) trading blood to try and keep lines as best as possible is a good starting block there's plenty of shows to meet at and if going abroad to Germany and picking up a odd couple to throw in with your existing frogs can freshen things up perhaps.


The highlighted point you made is something that is very important! You're right how are and would people be able to enforce it? Well we couldn't enforce such a document, there hasn't been one for a Amphibian species before and there still isn't but I think the best way to be able to introduce it is to encourage breeders or shops to give documents (I am currently typing up my starter thread for RFUK with my Certificate idea) to the people that buy their individuals, to keep and look after with hopefully correct (as it possibly could be) data. 
I think for some species it will be practically impossible to avoid inbreeding, eventually but whats to say that we shouldn't at least try and limit it for those species in particular? People in the past, have seemed to be against this idea I have brought up as apparently breeding them extremely is more important than breeding them gradually and being careful with who you sell offspring to and where you get new blood from.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Guys, you are both right. it probably is impossible to 'enforce' in any real way, but just spreading the word, as we do on this forum and other places, to make keepers *think *can be effective. A blythe attitude of 'it doesn't affect darts' or 'it doesn't affect primative animals' can be combated with reason and evidence- the problems encountered with enigma leopard geckos are a good example, as is the loss in fertility in some captive-bred darts. Mix up the sources of your breeding animals, would be my starting advice!

Oh, by the way, Knighty, I forgive you for quoting me! :lol2:


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> A blythe attitude of 'it doesn't affect darts' or 'it doesn't affect primative animals' can be combated with reason and evidence


Ron, where is it said that inbreeding won't have any affect on Darts? This is something I've never read before...It would seem rather silly to take that stance IMHO and very risky in the long run. 

Cheers,


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> Ron, where is it said that inbreeding won't have any affect on Darts?


It's a pretty common point of view over here Glenn. Some anonymous pearls of wisdom from recent threads on here. You'll find many more on this and other forums:

"Frogs don`t suffer from inbreeding problems like other animals or like humans do so you shouldn`t have issues."

"I kind of knew that inbreeding is okay..."

"you can't actually really avoid inbreeding to some degree with darts, not without mixing morphs."

I also remember a thread on DD last year where there was much discussion about how individuals breeding to e.g. F7 are demonstrating a responsible approach, because darts don't suffer from the effects of inbreeding. I would probably go as far as to say it's the majority view, and it's a very convenient argument because it is a lot of hard work to source frogs of known lineage.

Nick


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi Guys glad to see that the debate is still staying friendly.

Back to the original topic of the thred for a moment i have found this statment on Saurian Enterprises website regarding Dendrobates Tinctorius "brazilian colbat".

"This is another form of tinctorius that seems a little more delicate than most of the others, and I wonder if this might be due to a very limited number of bloodlines in this country, and the inbreeding that has gone on with this form"

To me this shows that the problem that so many have overlooked or not cared about could well starting to be showing.

If interbreeding is making certain species weeker then how long will it take for other morphs/species to start showing the same traits?

I have to agree with Dr.nick, i have seen these "arguments" for interbreeding myself


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

DrNick said:


> It's a pretty common point of view over here Glenn. Some anonymous pearls of wisdom from recent threads on here. You'll find many more on this and other forums:
> 
> "Frogs don`t suffer from inbreeding problems like other animals or like humans do so you shouldn`t have issues."
> 
> ...


Okay, I remember seeing threads about these F7 - F16 frogs and didn't pay much attention to them, to be honest. I don't know why someone would intentionally take it that far...

Edit: You can add Lorenzo's to the difficult to breed list. From what I understand the original gene pool was very small.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It may be worth starting with one species or morph to see how it goes.I was wondering whether its better to start with a common one or a rare one?


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## MantellaMan (Feb 3, 2012)

colinm said:


> It may be worth starting with one species or morph to see how it goes.I was wondering whether its better to start with a common one or a rare one?


Well I started a year ago with the Tylototriton genus and am finding hard to get anyone to at least try it. I wouldn't mind doing a Caudata species while Dave or someone does an Anuran like the Dendrobatidae family? lol 

Tylototriton would be something I think would benefit from having this kind of certificate purely for the fact they are only just starting to "Boom" in the hobby again with so many people importing them, breeding them and selling them. 

I don't mind my certificate draft design being used as a basis? It has taken a year though of decisions and discussion though and in all honesty, so many people are against having such things regulated it's unbelievable.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Dave Josh,sorry for the slow reply!!

Guys first up thanks for both trying to get something started and your gesture of time etc,very cool. 
Guys, I wonder whether the place to start all this is some form of phib birth certificate.there has been one recently debated on DB. I've been pondering this the last few days,hence the above apology. A central register is a fantastic idea,but josh your thoughts set me thinking,if there is resistance with the hobby, if folks are worried about privacy or numbers of kids bred,then maybe something where this is bypased in the initial stages at least,or an option for folks to register as well as having an heredity paper(birth certificate),might feel less imposing to them. I've also been musing that Tree Walkers International,had a project called a "taxon management plan",essentially the same as what you guys are proposing. They have recently pulled it as so few members of the hobby stateside were using the programme. My point simply is this,what we need is to start small,tiny acorns and all that. One doesn't need to impose things on folks,one needs to grab them show them why this is important,almost a mindset change. Look i'm not saying it's not a wonderful idea,I just am pondering something,possibly not so intrusive,if you like. The first step I think,is to have guidance over keeping records,of our phibs history and passing that on to the next keeper. IE a birth certificate or something similar.

Taking a simplified approach to some issues such as which exact pair produced which exact morphling might also be needed. Many frogs are bred in groups,where exact parentage is unknown ,so just making that frog x came from group z might be a best case senario to be used. Photos are great to id some frogs and certainly useful,but they are not always a sure ID as has already been stated,species dependent,etc.

If we had a standarised bit of paper,at least we would have some form of a start. Here's a link to a discussion on DB, i'm linking it not only for the ideas but also the discussion,as it illustrates,some of the problems. 

Frog Birth Certificate - Dendroboard

Essentially what I'm pondering is how to grab interest and not alienate folks,because with the best will in the world and the most fantastic registry being set up if folks won't use it,then all the work is for nothing,I know it's sad,but that is the nut to be cracked 

Stu


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

Question is.. How would you identify the individual phibs?? It's not like they can be tagged??? 

Tiger

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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Dave Josh,sorry for the slow reply!!
> 
> Guys first up thanks for both trying to get something started and your gesture of time etc,very cool.
> Guys, I wonder whether the place to start all this is some form of phib birth certificate.there has been one recently debated on DB. I've been pondering this the last few days,hence the above apology. A central register is a fantastic idea,but josh your thoughts set me thinking,if there is resistance with the hobby, if folks are worried about privacy or numbers of kids bred,then maybe something where this is bypased in the initial stages at least,or an option for folks to register as well as having an heredity paper(birth certificate),might feel less imposing to them. I've also been musing that Tree Walkers International,had a project called a "taxon management plan",essentially the same as what you guys are proposing. They have recently pulled it as so few members of the hobby stateside were using the programme. My point simply is this,what we need is to start small,tiny acorns and all that. One doesn't need to impose things on folks,one needs to grab them show them why this is important,almost a mindset change. Look i'm not saying it's not a wonderful idea,I just am pondering something,possibly not so intrusive,if you like. The first step I think,is to have guidance over keeping records,of our phibs history and passing that on to the next keeper. IE a birth certificate or something similar.
> ...


Thanks, Stu. lol I was one of the last people to post there. :blush:

I'm still trying to figure out a way to do this fairly easily...I'll be watching this thread.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

vukic said:


> Question is.. How would you identify the individual phibs?? It's not like they can be tagged???
> 
> Tiger
> 
> Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


With some species/ morphs one can by markings ,with others impossible. ha knowing today's technology It wouldn't surprise me if they could be tagged,but really i'm not sure it is necessary at this time or to know an individual. 

Look I would rather have frog z that came from that group (X1234) of 4 which came from Y pr and Vpr which came from SAY Bob the builder and Fireman Sam,than have what we have now which at best seem to be a connotation of "oh yeah mate I got them at hamn" or "they came from holland,so they won't be related to the frogs you just bought from Miss Piggy",who incidentally bought her frogs of a guy that bought them at Hamm,and that guy lives in Holland .
Apart from the WC pums and possibly UE frogs you'll be starting from a kick off point probably of the above anyway,so is an individual id compelling?

Vulkic what I'm trying to get over is we should be erring on how we can do this rather than why we can't and something is better than absolutely nowt.Even a flawed system at outset,can be improved, it will build into more,if we put in the effort!! Our hobby isn't full of zookeepers working with proper protocols with conservation in mind. We are a hobby that maybe would like to do a bit better for the future of what we keep. Maybe!! being the crucial word.A lot of us really do care about these phibs in the wild so our goals should be to do what we can to breed and alliviate the need for WC to constantly bring in new blood. Especially where wild populations are not monitored. The best way to do that is surely record keeping in some form or other?

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I also admire people's willingness to take on administration of a database etc., but I have to say, without wanting to sound negative, that I think it might be a little ambitious for right now. Participation is key, and assuming that people participate, all of the important bases can be covered by simply buying frogs with lineage info and passing it on to the next generation of keepers.

I only buy frogs from people who will supply me with a detailed sales sheet and, in return, people who buy frogs from me get an even more detailed sales sheet. Going keeper to keeper in this way information remains available and does not require any organization or oversight whatsoever. No monitoring, no public access, nothing to get ones knickers in a twist over. All it needs is for people to do it. It's a piece of paper.........

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> I also admire people's willingness to take on administration of a database etc., but I have to say, without wanting to sound negative, that I think it might be a little ambitious for right now. Participation is key, and assuming that people participate, all of the important bases can be covered by simply buying frogs with lineage info and passing it on to the next generation of keepers.
> 
> I only buy frogs from people who will supply me with a detailed sales sheet and, in return, people who buy frogs from me get an even more detailed sales sheet. Going keeper to keeper in this way information remains available and does not require any organization or oversight whatsoever. No monitoring, no public access, nothing to get ones knickers in a twist over. All it needs is for people to do it. It's a piece of paper.........
> 
> Nick


Oh cobblers:lol2: why can't I just write a nice little paragraph like your's Nick and it all makes perfect sense:bash:

Hmm guys,wot he said^^^^ DOH:lol2::lol2:

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

You need to go cold turkey on the emoticons Stu - they distract from your highly cogent prose LOL 

Best,

Nick


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm not putting the idea down.. It's a great idea.. Just a little confusing for me.. Lol.. Still getting into my phibs.. Love my fire belly toads... Spend way to much time watching them... Only have a pair but want more!!! Lol.. 

Tiger

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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

DrNick said:


> I also admire people's willingness to take on administration of a database etc., but I have to say, without wanting to sound negative, that I think it might be a little ambitious for right now. Participation is key, and assuming that people participate, all of the important bases can be covered by simply buying frogs with lineage info and passing it on to the next generation of keepers.
> 
> I only buy frogs from people who will supply me with a detailed sales sheet and, in return, people who buy frogs from me get an even more detailed sales sheet. Going keeper to keeper in this way information remains available and does not require any organization or oversight whatsoever. No monitoring, no public access, nothing to get ones knickers in a twist over. All it needs is for people to do it. It's a piece of paper.........
> 
> Nick


Nick, would you mind posting a copy of the sales sheet you give out when selling?


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

It's nothing elaborate Glenn - just a basic Word doc that details:

- Species/morph
- number provided
- relatedness to each other
- price per frog
- Lineage, as far back as the info goes - even if that's just "wild collected parents"
- Degree of in-breeding (e.g. F3)
- Date out of the water

...and any other notes on the individual frogs or the species, such as other people I know who have related/unrelated ones. Most of it I just write out. I also give out care sheets for the individual species and food culturing guides.

The sheet given to the new keeper has all of my contact details and I keep a copy with all of their's. As long as they pass on the info when they sell, it should all work out. In reality, who knows!

Cheers,

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> You need to go cold turkey on the emoticons Stu - they distract from your highly cogent prose LOL
> 
> Best,
> 
> Nick


Damm I thought that was the bit folks understood, just tell me how hard it was to not click the lol button twice and you're forgiven. Oh I will also admit I did look up cogent,LMFAO 

Oh buddy I won't comment further on your "bit of paper",I'm going to wait to see what the other guys make of it all,but wanted to say thanks for posting kiddo,that is really helpful.Oh and no emoticon thingy,so now your wondering,is he being sarcastic,no I'm not ,it IS really helpful !!
take care mate

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

DrNick said:


> You need to go cold turkey on the emoticons Stu - they distract from your highly cogent prose LOL
> 
> Best,
> 
> Nick





soundstounite said:


> Damm I thought that was the bit folks understood, just tell me how hard it was to not click the lol button twice and you're forgiven. Oh I will also admit I did look up cogent,LMFAO
> 
> 
> Stu


I love the emoticons, personally- it makes me feel like I'm having a real conversation with you, with expressions as well as words! :lol2::lol2:


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> I love the emoticons, personally- it makes me feel like I'm having a real conversation with you, with expressions as well as words! :lol2::lol2:


I should point out I was joking, just in case! Stu without emoticons would be like a dart collection without terribs... :devil:

:2thumb:

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> I should point out I was joking, just in case! Stu without emoticons would be like a dart collection without terribs... :devil:
> 
> :2thumb:
> 
> Nick


Nah, you don't need to point that out Nick,not on any level,your post made me laugh every time i thought of it, for that mate, you have my thanks:notworthy:.

But you have actually used the wrong abbreviation for tinctorious Nick...that's tinc mate not terrib, ahh man northern folks, bless:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Thanks buddy but there was no need,I'm sure of that!! Being passionate about what we can achieve with our frogs is wonderful,but we should still be able have a crack with each other, all as it should be 

Stu


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## knighty (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi guys

sorry been away for a few days. Im at work at the mo so i will have to do a full post later. Some good ideas and opinions by the way

Dave


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