# Keeping a venomous snake illegaly?



## rc10andy

What would happen if the authorities found out about this?

Thanks


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## slippery42

rc10andy said:


> What would happen if the authorities found out about this?
> 
> Thanks


Probably raid said offender and take all their stock and maybe prosecute!


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## paulrimmer69

hopefully all of the above!


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## rc10andy

I know someone who is keeping a hot and it fully loaded but he has no licence no insurance...no idea wjat hes got really...obviously he knows its venomous but i dont know what to do about it. I dont want him to get prosecuted and i dont want the snake put to sleep! 

I had to tell him what it was and how big they get and a few bits about the venom and locality! I mean he knew what it was roughly because of the tail on it!


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## exoticsadmirer

some one in chezzie has a rattler? seriously i'd get him done!


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## chondro13

Sounds like he doesnt even know how to look after the poor thing. I would advise your friend to hand it in to the local zoo or advertise it for free on here for a DWA keeper to take, otherwise i would report him personally. 

Councils sometimes make it ridiculously difficult to get a licence, in which case i can understand some people being forced underground and simply not having the licence - but if they are a sensible person this doesnt necessarily make them a bad keeper in the slightest. However in the case of your mate it sounds like he doesnt know his arse from his elbow so i would swiftly advise he gets rid of it, or you inform the authorities. Just my 2p


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## Mynki

No one on this forum can give the OP a meaningful answer as any action that could be taken is not their decision. If you want an accurate answer then you should contact the licensing area for the area concerned anonymously and ask them. They will happily talk to you about the situation.

I see you're in Derbyshire, some time ago I was offered pretty much any DWA reptile I wanted, not that I wanted to own any DWA species. It was made quite clear that if I had the cash I could get anything I wanted. I can't help wondering if the source of this animal is the same due to your location???


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## exoticsadmirer

I've heard stories from a mate lots of people in derbyshire have venomous but I didn't believe him at the time maybe it's true. I'll never know.


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## ipreferaflan

My girlfriend lives in Derby. If she gets bitten I'm coming to you! haha


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## kieran8143

ipreferaflan said:


> My girlfriend lives in Derby. If she gets bitten I'm coming to you! haha



to say thanks? getting rid of the mrs for free! bonus imo :whistling2:

on a more serious not though. only you can decide what to do. maybe see if you can get him to let you put it on here and someone with a dwa take it.


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## rc10andy

chondro13 said:


> Sounds like he doesnt even know how to look after the poor thing. I would advise your friend to hand it in to the local zoo or advertise it for free on here for a DWA keeper to take, otherwise i would report him personally.
> 
> Councils sometimes make it ridiculously difficult to get a licence, in which case i can understand some people being forced underground and simply not having the licence - but if they are a sensible person this doesnt necessarily make them a bad keeper in the slightest. However in the case of your mate it sounds like he doesnt know his arse from his elbow so i would swiftly advise he gets rid of it, or you inform the authorities. Just my 2p


Just to clarify this person isnt my mate lol but yes doesnt know arse from elbow you are right. Do you think anyone would be willing to take the snake on from the forum if indeed i do inform the police? I would only tell them where it was if i had it in writing that the snake would not be harmed. Id collect it myself if they would let me!!


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## rc10andy

Mynki said:


> No one on this forum can give the OP a meaningful answer as any action that could be taken is not their decision. If you want an accurate answer then you should contact the licensing area for the area concerned anonymously and ask them. They will happily talk to you about the situation.
> 
> I see you're in Derbyshire, some time ago I was offered pretty much any DWA reptile I wanted, not that I wanted to own any DWA species. It was made quite clear that if I had the cash I could get anything I wanted. I can't help wondering if the source of this animal is the same due to your location???


From what i can gather the person was given the snake for free! But it was supposed to be a rat snake not a rattle snake!


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## rc10andy

kieran8143 said:


> to say thanks? getting rid of the mrs for free! bonus imo :whistling2:
> 
> on a more serious not though. only you can decide what to do. maybe see if you can get him to let you put it on here and someone with a dwa take it.


I dont know him well enough and tbh he seems well happy he has the snake so wont get rid of it that easily!!


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## Snakes Incorporated

If someone wants to keep a venomous reptile so what. 
The so called authorities’ always want to control everything even though these pen pushers seldom have a clue what they are doing anyway. 
Why squeal on the bloke and if you do what would you get out of it?

By the way insurance for what?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_

Snakes Incorporated said:


> If someone wants to keep a venomous reptile so what.
> The so called authorities’ always want to control everything even though these pen pushers seldom have a clue what they are doing anyway.
> Why squeal on the bloke and if you do what would you get out of it?
> 
> By the way insurance for what?


Incase it bites a member of the public, they want you fully insured incase of the worst case scenario. 

To be honest i would tell this guy that giving it to someone that has a license would be the best thing to do and arrange for someone on here to collect it.


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## wildlifewarrior

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I
> Why squeal on the bloke and if you do what would you get out of it?


Public safety .....


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## Jczreptiles

wildlifewarrior said:


> Public safety .....


 It would depend on how safely and how well an illegal keeper was keeping DWA without a licence as to whever I would report them or not TBH. If they were all secure and the owner looked after them well and was responsible I would not report them, if they were extremely irresponsible i would probably report them.


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## Snakes Incorporated

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> Incase it bites a member of the public, they want you fully insured incase of the worst case scenario. .


This idea may seem to be a great one as a precaution but this is a money making scam. I can assure you that the statistics to back this insurance vampire is zero. I happened to have read a study done on this world wide by a yank that proved that escaped venomous snakes don’t hunt or eat your neighbours.



_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> To be honest i would tell this guy that giving it to someone that has a license would be the best thing to do and arrange for someone on here to collect it.


Why is this license so important to you then? Is it because some bureaucrat thinks that it’s a good idea and the state can make a little out the deal? Yeah so the guy keeps an legal snake that happens to be venomous. Mate with respect it has nothing to do with anyone as long as he is taking care of the said animal adequately.


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## Snakes Incorporated

wildlifewarrior said:


> Public safety .....


That is nonsense wildlifewarrior. A sensible licensed keeper is just as capable of making a mistake like anyone else. It does not take a piece of paper to ensure public safety.


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## HABU

here if the cops find you with a rattlesnake... they probably would want to take a picture of themselves next to it as a sovenir to show the boys back at the station...


...that's about it.:whistling2:


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Why is this license so important to you then? Is it because some bureaucrat thinks that it’s a good idea and the state can make a little out the deal? Yeah so the guy keeps an legal snake that happens to be venomous. Mate with respect it has nothing to do with anyone as long as he is taking care of the said animal adequately.


I don't agree with it at all, to be honest i think it is to make a greedy goverment that little bit richer. But they did say that it wasn't being cared for properly which is why it would be good for it to go to a sensible keeper.


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## Darlo_Gal

Snakes Incorporated said:


> This idea may seem to be a great one as a precaution but this is a money making scam. I can assure you that the statistics to back this insurance vampire is zero. I happened to have read a study done on this world wide by a yank that proved that escaped venomous snakes don’t hunt or eat your neighbours.
> 
> 
> Why is this license so important to you then? Is it because some bureaucrat thinks that it’s a good idea and the state can make a little out the deal? Yeah so the guy keeps an legal snake that happens to be venomous. Mate with respect it has nothing to do with anyone as long as he is taking care of the said animal adequately.


So do you have the same stance on driving licenses and car insurance? Yes we are heavily taxed on...well everything and everything seems to be a money making scam but some thing are in place for a good reason. No one can get a DWA without having set protocol in place. Keeping illegally means you probably don't have all this. It means a 15 yr old chav could go walking down the street with a cobra in his jacket....I'm thinking thats not a good idea.


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## Snakes Incorporated

_TiMiSdRuNk_ said:


> ... But they did say that it wasn't being cared for properly which is why it would be good for it to go to a sensible keeper.


Agreed TiMiSdRuNk. If the guy is genuinely mistreating the animal no one can blame the squealer but if all is frosty leave it be.
If the guy is trading in wild caught animals call SWAT or the SAS and nuke the offender.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Darlo_Gal said:


> … 15 yr old chav could go walking down the street with a cobra in his jacket.......


Darlo you may be jumping to conclusions that are not there mate. If the keeper is sensibly keeping a venomous animal and not making a big deal out of it ignore the monkeys? 
Why he wants to keep the animal has nothing to do with anyone.
If some nut wants to go walking down the road with a cobra in his pocket the fool may need more than a physiologist.


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## Darlo_Gal

Hey kids these days can go out and joyride cars, carry (and use) knives and guns, use dogs as status symbols and train them to attack etc etc etc. Fair enough walking down the street with a cobra may be far fetched but still what would stop them from getting one.
I'm a responsible driver but you'd still be annoyed if I accidently hit you and wasn't insured or didn't have a license.


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## Snakes Incorporated

Darlo_Gal said:


> Hey kids these days can go out and joyride cars, carry (and use) knives and guns, use dogs as status symbols and train them to attack etc etc etc. ...


Darlo as I said before mate."You are making conclusions that aren't there."
Kids, knives, joyrides, dogs, bombs have nothing to do with some chap keeping a snake some bureaucrat has not given him a piece of paper to keep.
The snake keeper is not in any way causing you a problem or imposing on you so why not just leave it be?


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## Darlo_Gal

Sorry my point previously was that kids think all those things are cool, they don't think of the danger involved to themselves or others. So why would they believe keeping a cute little cobra would be any different?


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## DavidR

Although a DWA license itself may just be a piece of paper, to obtain one the keeper must prove that their facilities are acceptable, and that any animals they keep are not a risk to the public. Escaped exotics may not pose a huge threat to the public day to day, but the potential is there if one were to get loose, hence public liability insurance. Although those in power may be a bunch of money grabbing bureaucrats, certain things need to be regulated for public protection, venomous snakes clearly fall into that category.

David.


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## wildlifewarrior

Jczreptiles said:


> It would depend on how safely and how well an illegal keeper was keeping DWA without a licence as to whever I would report them or not TBH. If they were all secure and the owner looked after them well and was responsible I would not report them, if they were extremely irresponsible i would probably report them.


yes....If this....If that....If is as good as maybe or probably....If is just a "hopefully"



Snakes Incorporated said:


> That is nonsense wildlifewarrior. A sensible licensed keeper is just as capable of making a mistake like anyone else. It does not take a piece of paper to ensure public safety.


DavidR has summed it up better than i could have.....you going on the idea that this person is SENSIABLE and if thats the case then fair enough....but a piece of paper as you put it DOES mean even if this snake escaped from its enclosure it would be in a room thats been vetted and approved and its unable to escape from. This piece of paper is proof that you are deemed responsiable enough to look after this animal you have obtained.

I remember being told about a guy who had a monocle cobra in his living room in nothing more than a plastic underbed tub and his 2 daughters also watched tv in that room..... think that one case alone speaks for its self



DavidR said:


> Although a DWA license itself may just be a piece of paper, to obtain one the keeper must prove that their facilities are acceptable, and that any animals they keep are not a risk to the public. Escaped exotics may not pose a huge threat to the public day to day, but the potential is there if one were to get loose, hence public liability insurance. Although those in power may be a bunch of money grabbing bureaucrats, certain things need to be regulated for public protection, venomous snakes clearly fall into that category.
> 
> David.


:notworthy:


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## Snakes Incorporated

Darlo_Gal if the keeper of the venomous snake happens to be an inexperienced kid (in your opinion). 
It would then be ethically correct and neighbourly for you to approach the said parents and voice your opinion there. This would encourage the legal guardians to deal with your concerns.: victory:


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## Jczreptiles

wildlifewarrior said:


> *yes....If this....If that....If is as good as maybe or probably....If is just a "hopefully"*
> 
> 
> 
> DavidR has summed it up better than i could have.....you going on the idea that this person is SENSIABLE and if thats the case then fair enough....but a piece of paper as you put it DOES mean even if this snake escaped from its enclosure it would be in a room thats been vetted and approved and its unable to escape from. This piece of paper is proof that you are deemed responsiable enough to look after this animal you have obtained.
> 
> I remember being told about a guy who had a monocle cobra in his living room in nothing more than a plastic underbed tub and his 2 daughters also watched tv in that room..... think that one case alone speaks for its self
> 
> 
> :notworthy:











Yer but....No but


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## Snakes Incorporated

DavidR said:


> A..certain things need to be regulated for public protection, venomous snakes clearly fall into that category..


David I agree with you that there should be some regulation but what I am saying is that if some chap down the road has made all the necessary contributions and in your opinion not abusing or mistreating the animal so what. 
If you have a personal concern approach him and voice it with him. 

My problem is when some nosy busy-body runs off and reports the individual with little or no accurate knowledge of the circumstances but uses the excuse that the animals are being kept illegally even if the facility is in good order.


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## Jczreptiles

If they had the same resonable pricing for DWAL throughout the UK the problem would not be so bad, down here for instance you can get a PSL for £300 a year with DWA entitlement but to get a DWAL its nearly £1100 a year how can they do a PSL for less when the inspections are the same (these prices may be a little outdated it was 2-3 years ago I got given these prices) and you even get the DWA entitlement on the PSL, it seems like the figures are just plucked out of the air.


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## smart1

Jczreptiles said:


> If they had the same resonable pricing for DWAL throughout the UK the problem would not be so bad, down here for instance you can get a PSL for £300 a year with DWA entitlement but to get a DWAL its nearly £1100 a year how can they do a PSL for less when the inspections are the same (these prices may be a little outdated it was 2-3 years ago I got given these prices) and you even get the DWA entitlement on the PSL, it seems like the figures are just plucked out of the air.


 
everything is down to 1 thing money, if things in this country and others werent so taxed, people woudnt have to resort to doing stuff like this ,i agree with haveing all the right stuff inplace, to make it as safe as poss to keep dangerous snakes ,but say you havent got the few thousand pounds some councils want, what do you do then ??? give up on your dream? 
these bastards in this country milk the public and call it TAX .99% of crime is down to 1 thing money ...whats next TAX on air, water look how quick the price of petrol have gone up and food . Getting back to the topic ,mate whoever this chap is id leave well alone being a grass isnt gonna do you any fav's and at the end of the day if the snake got out what really would be the chances of it killing anyone ??
all you will end up doing is pissing him off, and get sweet FA outa it, he should have a licence but hey if not, then like has bin said thats his choice isnt it !!


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## rc10andy

Snakes Incorporated said:


> If someone wants to keep a venomous reptile so what.
> The so called authorities’ always want to control everything even though these pen pushers seldom have a clue what they are doing anyway.
> Why squeal on the bloke and if you do what would you get out of it?
> 
> By the way insurance for what?


Public liability insurance...look into it!!


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## rc10andy

Jczreptiles said:


> It would depend on how safely and how well an illegal keeper was keeping DWA without a licence as to whever I would report them or not TBH. If they were all secure and the owner looked after them well and was responsible I would not report them, if they were extremely irresponsible i would probably report them.


What if i told you a 3ft viv with a viv lock?


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## rc10andy

Snakes Incorporated said:


> David I agree with you that there should be some regulation but what I am saying is that if some chap down the road has made all the necessary contributions and in your opinion not abusing or mistreating the animal so what.
> If you have a personal concern approach him and voice it with him.
> 
> My problem is when some nosy busy-body runs off and reports the individual with little or no accurate knowledge of the circumstances but uses the excuse that the animals are being kept illegally even if the facility is in good order.


But like i said, he didnt even know what rattler he was keeping and thought if it had been milked within the month it was no longer venomous


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## Ophexis

rc10andy said:


> What if i told you a 3ft viv with a viv lock?


Not being an expert don't take my word for it, but that sounds like way, waaaaay too little for a venomous snake. From what I understand they need to be in a secure room, lighting accessible without having to GO IN said room, warning signs on / around the viv / room to alert the public to the dangers... I could be wrong.


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## paulrimmer69

from what the op has said it sounds like the person in question should not be in possesion of a rattlesnake in any way shape or form, if he doesnt even know what he is keeping what happens if he is bitten and cant tell the paramedics what species it is? if i were you id do the right thing and tell him to give the snake to a licensed keeper or you will inform the police, this is exactly the sort of idiot that will ruin the hobby for the people who actually spend alot of time and money doing it the legal way


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## Snakes Incorporated

paulrimmer69 said:


> ...what happens if he is bitten...


Paulrimmer with respect mate that is not your concern. The guy knows he has a venomous snake so the responsibility is his alone. 
If he gets nailed the authorities are innocent and we are under the impression he knows what he is doing. Not your problem.



rc10andy said:


> But like i said, he didnt even know what rattler he was keeping and thought if it had been milked within the month it was no longer venomous


Andy go chat to the bloke if your conscience bothers you. Maybe he is ignorant maybe is an expert. The only way is to go face the guy and find out yourself. Don`t threaten him if something does not add up but try and assist him as far as you can. 
Your concern should be for the animal because anyone keeps venomous has its own responsibility. Give the bloke his privacy and avoid being a nosy interfering busy-bodies.


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## HABU

wouldn't incidents of non-compliance to DWA rules and the media attention any incidents could generate not make it more likely that an outright ban could be imposed?

they make the rules and wait for you to break them... then make the rules tougher or ban the animals completely?


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## exoticsadmirer

If you've read the thread snakes incorporated he thought it was a rat snake! I myself would have told him to get rid to someone who could actually keep it.


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## DavidR

> My problem is when some nosy busy-body runs off and reports the individual with little or no accurate knowledge of the circumstances but uses the excuse that the animals are being kept illegally even if the facility is in good order.


I agree that if the keeper was doing everything properly; appropriate measures were in place to negate any risk to the public, and the local authorities made obtaining the license prohibitively expensive/difficult it would be a different situation. Under any other circumstances I would personally suggest taking measures to remove the snake from the persons possession, for the safety of anybody that may come into contact with it if the worst were to happen. 

To the original poster, have you actually seen the snake and the facilities in place? Without actually having seen it I would be dubious as to what it is. 

David.


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## RAZZ-MCFC

i agree with snakes incorporated

if the snake is being well cared for on a secure tank then why grass up? the snakes living well and the guy obviously knows what he's doing

on the other hand, if it isn't being cared for and the guy is clueless, then, and only then IMO, should you speak to him about it and offer help, tell him you will give it away to somebody who does know what they are doing

also to the poster who said 3 foot isn't big enough, 3 foot isn't big enough for a fully grown adult, but you don't know what size the snake is, it could only be young


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## HABU

big brother is watching your pets... what else does he watch?


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## Ophexis

RAZZ-MCFC said:


> also to the poster who said 3 foot isn't big enough, 3 foot isn't big enough for a fully grown adult, but you don't know what size the snake is, it could only be young


I think you may have been referring to me? To be honest with you I wasn't taking about the size of the vivarium, I have no clue what size enclosure that's to be had for that snake. I was referring to the overall safety measures being taken to make sure the animal is secure and safe, for itself and to others.


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## SWMorelia

I'm no DWA expert like some who have made an answer on this thread:whistling2:
So lets just look at the facts as we have them...
The owner thought it was a rat snake...
The owner thought milking it would make it safe.....
These two statements make the answer to the original question a no-brainer..
And the answer.... If the owner gets bit it's no-one else's problem....
So what if the owner gets bit and goes down without getting the snake fully secured.... The emergency services break into his house not realizing why he is on the floor.... Now we have the potential for more victims.....
It may be fine in S.Africa as everyone is aware about venomous snakes, over here it would be the last thing on anyones mind.... Is that a fair scenario to place people in?


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## HABU

here where i live there are no laws concerning venomous or dangerous animals... and everyone's doing just fine...

we have copperheads in people's yards and gardens.... and people aren't dropping dead...

so what's up with that?

has the DWA system really been effective in stemming the apparent huge number of injuries and deaths that occured prior to the laws being enacted?


no one around here where i live is asking for something to be done about dangerous animals and venomous snakes... no "there ought to be a law" crowd here...

having DWA laws here would be as silly as needing a permit to wash dishes to most all folks around me.


nanny state... haha!


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## Ophexis

But you have native dangerous animals in America do you not, Habu? You can't really do much about those critters other than learn to live around them.
In the UK I believe the only venomous native snake we have is the adder, which are seldom seen anyway as they are quite timid. Obviously we have venomous and dangerous animals in zoos and private properties, etc. but because the UK doesn't live amongst dangerous wild animals not everyone has the necessary know-how to treat them properly and such.
As such, an individual keeping a privately owned dangerous animal should have the insurance to protect others who are not in the know.
Of course I could just be talking out my backside (apologies if so :blush: ) but it's the way I see the necessity for a DWAL.


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## SWMorelia

HABU, your right we need no laws to stop people from getting what they want....
I have just one last thing to say....
Viperlover


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## HABU

SW-morelia said:


> HABU, your right we need no laws to stop people from getting what they want....
> I have just one last thing to say....
> Viperlover


 
haha!! viperlover!

see?.... laws restricting dangerous animals kill the natural selection of good keepers!

having the freedom to keep venomous snakes weeds out the sloppy folks all by itself...

yahoos and fools don't last long in the venomous game here....


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## SWMorelia

HABU said:


> haha!! viperlover!
> 
> see?.... laws restricting dangerous animals kill the natural selection of good keepers!
> 
> having the freedom to keep venomous snakes weeds out the sloppy folks all by itself...
> 
> yahoos and fools don't last long in the venomous game here....


But that's my point. Without restrictions Viperlover could of been on here for a very short time, showing pics of his collection....
You have to realize that 99.9% of people in my country only encounter a venomous animal via T.V. We are not trained as a nation what to do in the event of finding venomous..... We need to know where they are being kept to protect innocent people who wouldn't dream of finding an escaped dangerous animal.....
Plus there's only you, a south African and a couple of yahoos saying we should drop the DWAL system.... The rest of us Brits are saying it's a good thing.....
I would love it if they dropped the DWAL system.... I for one would love Atheris...... But I really believe that if I want them I need to get registered.... Same as owning a car IMO....


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## farnell182

everythings about the money in this country, speed cameras 3 points fair enough..but 60 quid? wtf for? 

same as dwa, could make sure you have the experience and knowledge, and as long as you have that, get the permission for free..or just enough to cover the person to come and make sure you have the experience etc. 
not sure how much the insurance is, i think my public liability insurance was around £100? cant remember really..


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## Jczreptiles

SW-morelia said:


> But that's my point. *Without restrictions Viperlover could of been on here for a very short time, showing pics of his collection....*
> You have to realize that 99.9% of people in my country only encounter a venomous animal via T.V. We are not trained as a nation what to do in the event of finding venomous..... We need to know where they are being kept to protect innocent people who wouldn't dream of finding an escaped dangerous animal.....
> Plus there's only you, a south African and a couple of yahoos saying we should drop the DWAL system.... The rest of us Brits are saying it's a good thing.....
> I would love it if they dropped the DWAL system.... I for one would love Atheris...... But I really believe that if I want them I need to get registered.... Same as owning a car IMO....


 I doubt he would have TBH he is all mouth no action for nearly 6 months he has been saying about getting a kingsnake but its never happened but i get what you are saying the licence is there for a reason but they need to sort the pricing out otherwise I cannot blame people for keeping illegaly as long as they are safe if not they are tits.


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## SWMorelia

Jczreptiles said:


> * but they need to sort the pricing out *otherwise I cannot blame people for keeping illegaly as long as they are safe if not they are tits.


:notworthy::notworthy:
That's the issue I have with the DWAL system....
It's sort of pay your money and take your chance, approach...
Proper training to a recognized level and a token admin charge.... is the way forward IMO.
A gun licence is £50 every five years, and a check by the local gun bobby every so often......* But they have to register all their guns*..... Why the difference??


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## wildlifewarrior

SW-morelia said:


> But that's my point. Without restrictions Viperlover could of been on here for a very short time, showing pics of his collection....
> You have to realize that 99.9% of people in my country only encounter a venomous animal via T.V. We are not trained as a nation what to do in the event of finding venomous..... We need to know where they are being kept to protect innocent people who wouldn't dream of finding an escaped dangerous animal.....
> Plus there's only you, a south African and a couple of yahoos saying we should drop the DWAL system.... The rest of us Brits are saying it's a good thing.....
> I would love it if they dropped the DWAL system.... I for one would love Atheris...... But I really believe that if I want them I need to get registered.... Same as owning a car IMO....



agreed....lets also not forget that how many british snake keeprs even know that grass snakes arent protected...or that adders arent as harmless as a bee sting .

These 2 quotes from above are one over 75% of the snake keepers in the section believe until they are corrected....and these again are SNAKE KEEPERS.

how many non keepers in the UK even realise we have native snakes...as from alot of parents ive spoken to from school visits werent aware there was any....and as soon as you mention the adder being venomous they go all crazy on you stiaght away.

how many keepers of non venomous snakes even know what speices they have....i mean come on how many daily threads do we see of

"what morph is this"
"what carpet is this"
"is this a redtail"
"is this a corn or a king snake"
"what snake have i brought"

and again these are from snake keepers....at least with the DWAL you need to know what speices your keeping...and if it does escape then its in a locked room.

I for one am glad we have the DWAL....because i live in stoke...today alone ive walked up into town to get some extra millet spray for my birds and on the 4 mile walk ive seen 30+ staffie bulls and all of them have chains for leads and at least 20 of them all bared scars of fights they had been in.

Now lets look at mangrove snakes...they are EX DWA....and yet i get so many pms from kids on here wanting to buy one off me...i ask why and they say its because they love the colours...so i suggest to them other snakes who look the same to them but nah they arent interested....its the DWA part after the EX that they want it for...and if they didnt die so much incaptivity i would imagine even more people would have them as status symbols


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## rum&coke

What a load of c**p all this if he is a responsible keeper then he is doing nothing wrong total rubbish.
If he was a responsible keeper he would have a DWA licence.
What do we think of people who keep snakes and dont take them to the vets when they get ill? How is this person gonna take the snake to the vets if he has no licence.
Not to mention local hospitals knowing you have the snake and having access to anti-venom for if the keeper or member of the public gets tagged.


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## SWMorelia

rum&coke said:


> Not to mention local hospitals knowing you have the snake and having access to anti-venom for if the keeper or member of the public gets tagged.


Good point... DWAL protocol required the name (Common and scientific) of the snake you have in each viv, posted on the outside of the viv... 
Going to hospital with a 'snake' bite isn't going to buy you much time.... LOL


----------



## stuartdouglas

rum&coke said:


> What a load of c**p all this if he is a responsible keeper then he is doing nothing wrong total rubbish.
> If he was a responsible keeper he would have a DWA licence.
> What do we think of people who keep snakes and dont take them to the vets when they get ill? How is this person gonna take the snake to the vets if he has no licence.
> Not to mention local hospitals knowing you have the snake and having access to anti-venom for if the keeper or member of the public gets tagged.


I have to take issue with you on a couple of points here. Some Local Authorities make it all but impossible to legally own DWA snakes, either by outrageous fees or nigh on impossible sets of conditions to meet. A person could be a totally clued-up, mature keeper, but unable to afford the exorbitant annual fees demanded or unable to set up a room as required by people who don't have a clue, but don't want you keeping nasty snakes. IOf that person chooses not to comply with the law, then he/she understands what will happen if they are found out, but it doesn't make them incapable of looking after their animals. Conversely, some L.A's are so lax about their issuing of licenses that any idiot could own a DWA snake.

Secondly, anyone, responsible enough to be able to safely own a DWA snake, most likely will be able to diagnose and self medicate their animals, and will in all likelihood already have some non-venomous that are registered with a vet.

Thirdly, local hospitals don't need to know what is being kept in their area, all they need to do is contact the National poisons unit or toxbase and as long as the keeper knows what he/she was bitten by, the correct AV will be winging it's way to the hospital in short order, and the doctors will be put in touch with the most experienced people that you could wish for in the event of gerting bitten.
As for members of the public getting bitten, the only ways that would happen is if a totally irresponsible keeper was to let an animal out of their house or the house was broken into and the burglars decided to rob the snakes. in the first instance, then that precludes that person being a responsible keeper


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## rum&coke

stuartdouglas said:


> Thirdly, local hospitals don't need to know what is being kept in their area, all they need to do is contact the National poisons unit or toxbase and as long as the keeper knows what he/she was bitten by, the correct AV will be winging it's way to the hospital in short order, and the doctors will be put in touch with the most experienced people that you could wish for in the event of gerting bitten.


thats ok then I'm sure they will have all the time in the world to do all that in the few mins you have to live after a bite and you will be fully concious and coherant after the bite to explaine what has tagged you, and when you are fully treated you then would be happy to pay a fine and lose all your animals when the police come calling.


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## jasper1

wildlifewarrior said:


> Now lets look at mangrove snakes...they are EX DWA....and yet i get so many pms from kids on here wanting to buy one off me...i ask why and they say its because they love the colours...so i suggest to them other snakes who look the same to them but nah they arent interested....*its the DWA part after the EX that they want it for*...and if they didnt die so much incaptivity i would imagine even more people would have them *as status symbols*


Christian, although I'm quoting you, I'm not having a pop. It's just that this gets mentioned so many times by everyone and I feel like I need to defend. Whilst this may be true in some (probably most cases), it's not in all. 

I freely admit that I kept a pair without licence back in '86. Was this irresponsible, maybe to some...? But, in my opionion, I kept them in a responsible manner (if we omit the licence and insurance), the vivs were secure, as was my herp room.

Later in life, they were something I wished to keep again but didn't, as I did not want to go down the expense/jumping through hoops trying to get the DWAL. I now keep many types of arboreal snakes and Mangroves were soon added to the list once they became Ex-DWA. This wasn't because I saw them as a status symbol. 

Furthermore, I have been living in Ireland since June so could keep anything I wished to but still haven't gone the _hot_ route. Mind you the _Bothriechis schlegelii _are tempting me_...._ But if I do decide to keep them, then it will be when I return to the UK later this year and will go the DWAL route. Sorry, I'm rambling now.

Back to the OP; the guy in question does sound a bit of a tool if what is said is true. But would I report him? Probably not, it would be a bit hypocritical of me, seeing as I did something similar when I was younger. However, I would try to offer guidance to ensure it was kept in a safe manner and/or disuade him from keeping it.


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## stuartdouglas

rum&coke said:


> thats ok then I'm sure they will have all the time in the world to do all that in the few mins you have to live after a bite and you will be fully concious and coherant after the bite to explaine what has tagged you, and when you are fully treated you then would be happy to pay a fine and lose all your animals when the police come calling.


Ok then, you obviously have no knowledge of venomous snakes. All responsible keepers have bite protocols, detailing the species of snake kept, the type of anitvenin required and contact numbers for the relevant organisations.

As for minutes to live, well if that's the case, no matter whether your hospital has stocks of AV (unlikely) by the time you've gotten to a phone,blurted out your details and waited for an ambulance, well......it was nice knowing you.
Back to reality now, unless you are incredibly unlucky enough to receive a full envenomation from such as a full grown black mamba, direct into a vein, the reality is you have quite some time before you go unconscious, if indeed you do at all. Time enough to apply a pressure bandage to the site to prevent the neurotoxins reaching the lymph system, which will buy you a lot more time. If you're bitten by a viperid, you have hours maybe even days before your condition becomes life threatening, if indeed it does at all.
Snake bites do not result in immediate falling to the floor, writhing around, foaming at the mouth and dropping dead in the space of a couple of minutes, despite what "Snakes on a Plane" would have you believe.

Oh and finally, there's such a thing as "patient confidentiality" hospitals are not required to inform the Police in anything other than gunshot wounds or where injuries to children do not correspond to the description of the accident which caused them.


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## rum&coke

stuartdouglas said:


> Ok then, you obviously have no knowledge of venomous snakes. All responsible keepers have bite protocols, detailing the species of snake kept, the type of anitvenin required and contact numbers for the relevant organisations.
> 
> As for minutes to live, well if that's the case, no matter whether your hospital has stocks of AV (unlikely) by the time you've gotten to a phone,blurted out your details and waited for an ambulance, well......it was nice knowing you.
> Back to reality now, unless you are incredibly unlucky enough to receive a full envenomation from such as a full grown black mamba, direct into a vein, the reality is you have quite some time before you go unconscious, if indeed you do at all. Time enough to apply a pressure bandage to the site to prevent the neurotoxins reaching the lymph system, which will buy you a lot more time. If you're bitten by a viperid, you have hours maybe even days before your condition becomes life threatening, if indeed it does at all.
> Snake bites do not result in immediate falling to the floor, writhing around, foaming at the mouth and dropping dead in the space of a couple of minutes, despite what "Snakes on a Plane" would have you believe.
> 
> Oh and finally, there's such a thing as "patient confidentiality" hospitals are not required to inform the Police in anything other than gunshot wounds or where injuries to children do not correspond to the description of the accident which caused them.


what are you on about "Snakes on a Plane"
Your right I dont have much knowledge of venomous snakes but I do have common sence and know that the D in DWA stands for Dangerous.
If you think its fine and ok to keep DWA without a licence then your a fool or a dreamer who wants to be up with the big boys but dont wanna put the work or money into doing it properly


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## leecb0

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Paulrimmer with respect mate that is not your concern. The guy knows he has a venomous snake so the responsibility is his alone.
> If he gets nailed the authorities are innocent and we are under the impression he knows what he is doing. Not your problem.


 No offence mate but i thing that it has more concern to us than to you, as you live in South Africa and our Laws are different to yours. you say its no concern if an illeagaly kept snake bites or god forbid kills its keeper. for you yes but this could possibly have an impact on those of us that have correct setups and licences, i agree that some LA's have high tarrifs for DWAL but hopefully it will soon change and be more standerdised across the country and this should stop people keeping illeagally to some degree. but our laws are our laws weather we agree with them or not we should adhere to them and if this means not being able to do something for whatever reason then thats life. doing things against the law does not change the law only cements in the law makers minds why we should have that law.

[/QUOTE]


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## wildlifewarrior

jasper1 said:


> Christian, although I'm quoting you, I'm not having a pop. It's just that this gets mentioned so many times by everyone and I feel like I need to defend. Whilst this may be true in some (probably most cases), it's not in all.
> 
> I freely admit that I kept a pair without licence back in '86. Was this irresponsible, maybe to some...? But, in my opionion, I kept them in a responsible manner (if we omit the licence and insurance), the vivs were secure, as was my herp room.
> 
> They were something I wished to keep again but didn't, as I did not want to go down the expense/jumping through hoops trying to get the DWAL. I now keep many types of arboreal snakes and Mangroves were soon added to the list once they became Ex-DWA. This wasn't because I saw them as a status symbol.
> 
> Furthermore, I have been living in Ireland since June so could keep anything I wished to but still haven't gone the _hot_ route. Mind you the _Bothriechis schlegelii _are tempting me_...._ But if I do decide to keep them, then it will be when I return to the UK later this year and will go the DWAL route.
> 
> Back to the OP; the guy in question does sound a bit of a tool if what is said is true. But would I report him? Probably not, it would be a bit hypocritical of me, seeing as I did something similar when I was younger. However, I would try to offer guidance to ensure it was kept in a safe manner and/or disuade him from keeping it.


Hiya

i think you missed the point i was making...i keep and BREED mangroves...ive got near on 30 boiga speices ...i must have 50+ rear fanged speices aswell...what i like about them is they are known to die incaptivity and not thrive...i like to turn the tables on people and prove others wrong...i believe ive done this countless amount of times with all sorts of speices.

Keeping a speices such as mangroves because you like them is fair enough...but the majority of people who want them is because of the tag line of "ex DWA" that they bring with them.

for example i did a show last year for a rescue centre...i pulled out a FWC who is very tame and never hoods up and told them it was a brazilian smooth snake...apart from the young kids the rest werent bothered. i then pulled out a fiesty adult male and said this is a false water COBRA and just like that all the teenagers and wanna be steve irwins came over to check him out.


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## paulrimmer69

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Paulrimmer with respect mate that is not your concern. The guy knows he has a venomous snake so the responsibility is his alone.
> If he gets nailed the authorities are innocent and we are under the impression he knows what he is doing. Not your problem.
> 
> 
> Andy go chat to the bloke if your conscience bothers you. Maybe he is ignorant maybe is an expert. The only way is to go face the guy and find out yourself. Don`t threaten him if something does not add up but try and assist him as far as you can.
> Your concern should be for the animal because anyone keeps venomous has its own responsibility. Give the bloke his privacy and avoid being a nosy interfering busy-bodies.


agreed the keepers health is not my concern but if he gets bitten, dies and the story is splashed over all the papers with calls from the rspca etc to have private keeping of dwa to be banned then it becomes my problem, iv no idea on the laws in south africa but in the uk if a pet cat killed by a neighbours python makes the papers followed by calls for large constrictors to be banned what do you imagine would happen if someone dies??? myself and numerous other keepers have spent countless hours and money to get into keeping venomous so forgive me if i seem a little defensive but i dont see why it should all be ruined by someone who obviously hasnt a clue what hes doing


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## stuartdouglas

rum&coke said:


> what are you on about "Snakes on a Plane"
> Your right I dont have much knowledge of venomous snakes but I do have common sence and know that the D in DWA stands for Dangerous.
> *If you think its fine and ok to keep DWA without a licence* then your a fool or a dreamer who wants to be up with the big boys but dont wanna put the work or money into doing it properly


I don't think it's ok to keep without a license at all. My own personal thoughts on the DWA licensing system are exactly that. However, I can understand why some people make the choice to "go underground" so to speak. Would I inform the authorities? That would depend entirely upon said person's ability to maintain the animal ensuring the well being of the animal and the safety of themselves. Only if they had refused all offers of help and I though that there was a very real risk of an escape or an injury would I consider reporting it

As for _"wanting to be up with the big boys"......_There is nothing glamorous or elite about keeping venomous snakes, and it's exactly attitudes such as yours that makes boys want to get these animals for the kudos that they think it will bring.


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## rum&coke

stuartdouglas said:


> As for _"wanting to be up with the big boys"......_There is nothing glamorous or elite about keeping venomous snakes, and it's exactly attitudes such as yours that makes boys want to get these animals for the kudos that they think it will bring.


How is my attitude wrong? Im against anyone keeping without a licence, I have loads of respect for people who have a licence and keep snakes in a safe way and dont damage the hobbie for others, Your attitude is the one that is wrong


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## jasper1

No, I understood your point, I even agreed with you. That's why I said, not having a pop. I was just saying that as soon as someone mentions Mangroves everyone says that you only want them cos of Ex-DWA, but that isn't always the case.

But, I can see your point, especially if you are getting so many PM's asking for them, etc. And I also agree that they aren't a snake for the average keeper.

Yeah, I know you breed boiga, etc. Actually I have a couple of questions but I'll PM you later if you don't mind as I don't want to drag the thread of topic.


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## stuartdouglas

rum&coke said:


> How is my attitude wrong? Im against anyone keeping without a licence, I have loads of respect for people who have a licence and keep snakes in a safe way and dont damage the hobbie for others, Your attitude is the one that is wrong


 
:2wallbang:

Nowhere did I say your attitude was *wrong.* If you read and understood the post it said that the attitude that keeping venomous snakes was "for the big boys" (your words) only served to perpetuate the idea that it is somehow elitist and glamorous and this ad WW pointed out in an above post attracts some folks who want to appear "hard" and "cool" because they keep venomous snakes.

Back to topic, whilst we bothagree that it's not ok to keep without a license, would you report the person? If so would you then report every other lawbreaker that you saw or knew of?


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## rum&coke

stuartdouglas said:


> :2wallbang:
> 
> Nowhere did I say your attitude was *wrong.* If you read and understood the post it said that the attitude that keeping venomous snakes was "for the big boys" (your words) only served to perpetuate the idea that it is somehow elitist and glamorous and this ad WW pointed out in an above post attracts some folks who want to appear "hard" and "cool" because they keep venomous snakes.
> 
> Back to topic, whilst we bothagree that it's not ok to keep without a license, would you report the person? If so would you then report every other lawbreaker that you saw or knew of?


my use of words "for the big boys" was aimed at the dreamers who talk talk talk about owning DWA but dont, there are loads of dreamers out there that is clear if you look at the list of what snakes are kept and the numbers then it just dont add up. There are loads of dreamers that make stuff up about DWA for some reason only one I can think of is to look big and clever.I doubt the snake in the OP is real jus another my mate has a DWA snake story.
And to answer your question yes I would report them as I feel they are damaging to reptile keeping as a hobbie and how its seen by the public. Would I report any crime? nope Im not one of these people who want to police the world but I would if the crime had an effect on me in any way


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## HABU

i'm a yank so i am biased... all i can say is 'what business is it of any government to tell someone what they can and cannot have in the privacy of their own home?

sure they can make a case about public safety and i'll buy that but so long as it's secure and not a blatant threat to the community... lives or property, then why all the hoopla?

and that said, why is it then that the requirements vary so much from place to place?

and what are the fees for?... are the employees of the people, the public servants not already paid by taxes?

..or is the work load overseeing DWA critters so immense that they have to hire people full time to inspect caging and protocol for animals?


is there a DWA office where trained professionals on the public payroll sit ready to head out and inspect the multitudes of DWA animals in the U.K.?


seems like there at any given opportunity some fee or permit or inspection is needed for most everything... 


being a yank, it's of no concern to me other than just something that is over blown and exploited as a revenue generator on some pathetically tiny scale...


the system in place there i don't think could ever go over here except in small municipalities... locally... that's fair enough... if a community doesn't want DWA types then sure they can make laws to ban or restrict it... one could just go to a DWA-friendly community...

but at a national level...


i wouldn't be surprised if one needed a permit and test to run a lawn mower there... inherently dangerous things to operate in the wrong hands...



but if that's your way then so be it... personally i hate government in my home and in my personal business...

lastly, the laws and requirements should at the very least be standardized and sensible.... along with any fees.


here no one cares and the sky hasn't as of yet fallen...: victory:


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## fiona

rc10andy said:


> From what i can gather the person was given the snake for free! But it was supposed to be a rat snake not a rattle snake!



Errr. An 8 year old, non snake-keeping kid would know a Rattlesnake! There is a huge amount of ignorance. How could somebody mistake a Rattlesnake for a Rat snake? The first three letters of the snake classification is where the similarity ends.

Is there anything to stop the person actually getting a DWA now he realises the predicament?


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## wildlifewarrior

stuartdouglas said:


> would you then report every other lawbreaker that you saw or knew of?


.....thats a good point...but crimials never prosper.

I brought a 52" flat screen wall mounted tv off a "guy who knows a guy" for £100. in the shops it was £2800...anyway it was amazing for like 6 months until it stoped working...of course i had no way of getting a refund and i wasnt paying £200 to get it fixed,,,,you know how hard it is to get rid of a 52" tv....in the end i gave it a charity shop...told them i had upgraded and wanted offer it a good home:whistling2:


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## stuartdouglas

HABU said:


> i'm a yank so i am biased... all i can say is 'what business is it of any government to tell someone what they can and cannot have in the privacy of their own home?
> 
> sure they can make a case about public safety and i'll buy that but so long as it's secure and not a blatant threat to the community... lives or property, then why all the hoopla?
> 
> and that said, why is it then that the requirements vary so much from place to place?
> 
> and what are the fees for?... are the employees of the people, the public servants not already paid by taxes? The fees are supposed to cover the administrative workload caused by the application, despite as you say, these people already being paid for what they'r required to do
> 
> ..or is the work load overseeing DWA critters so immense that they have to hire people full time to inspect caging and protocol for animals? Nope, the licensing officer covers all licensing applications from shops to bars, to strip joints
> 
> 
> is there a DWA office where trained professionals on the public payroll sit ready to head out and inspect the multitudes of DWA animals in the U.K.? Nope, each local authority acts as it sees fit with regard to the issuing of a DWA license
> 
> 
> seems like there at any given opportunity some fee or permit or inspection is needed for most everything... Absolutley and it acts as a deterrent to casual keepers
> 
> 
> being a yank, it's of no concern to me other than just something that is over blown and exploited as a revenue generator on some pathetically tiny scale...
> 
> 
> the system in place there i don't think could ever go over here except in small municipalities... locally... that's fair enough... if a community doesn't want DWA types then sure they can make laws to ban or restrict it... one could just go to a DWA-friendly community...
> 
> but at a national level...
> 
> 
> i wouldn't be surprised if one needed a permit and test to run a lawn mower there... inherently dangerous things to operate in the wrong hands...
> 
> 
> 
> but if that's your way then so be it... personally i hate government in my home and in my personal business...
> 
> lastly, the laws and requirements should at the very least be standardized and sensible.... along with any fees.
> 
> 
> here no one cares and the sky hasn't as of yet fallen...: victory:


See answers in blue above. In actuality, the DWA hasn't prevented any deaths. It was imposed in 1976. The last death in this country from a non-indigenous venomous snake was in the early 20th Century when a keeper at london Zoo went back to the reptile house after being on the sauce and decided to grab the zoo's Indian Cobra, it bit him in the face and he died. No private keepers have died before or since the inception of the DWA Act. The licensing system has not made it any sfaer to keep DW animals, in fact it's criminalised a lot of people who for one reaon or another are unable to afford or meet the ridiculous criteria set arbitrarily by Local authorities acting autonomously and to no set rules other than that they (The L.A's) can impose "such conditions as they see fit"


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## Snakes Incorporated

paulrimmer69 said:


> … keepers … gets bitten, dies and the story is splashed over all the papers with calls from the rspca etc to have private keeping of dwa to be banned then it becomes my problem,


Paul no country or state can logically ban legitimate legal keepers because of one or two illegal keepers. Come boet use your common sense mate.
We in South Africa have different provinces (States) which all have different regulations but comply with a national regulation that compels us to apply and retain permits (licenses). The difference is that yes we have wild venomous animals so we as a nation are aware of the consequences. The other is that the keepers are the professionals were as the ‘conservation’ departments are politically run having little or no idea much like you in the UK. 

If anyone wants to keep venomous he or she takes the responsibility and if anyone knew anything about snake’s they would realize that snakes do not attack but defend so will crawl into a hideaway and stay there if threatened so this will not cause a problem for anyone other than the handler.

Anyone being envenomated will have ample time to inform someone and or get to a medical facility as you do not live very far from one in a city.
The bottom line: "Stop being so nosy and a busy-bodies by interfere with something most admitting to having zero knowledge or experience to have an opinion."
Go speak to the bloke and maybe he will enlighten you.


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## Ophexis

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Paul no country or state can logically ban legitimate legal keepers because of one or two illegal keepers.


Actually the UK is so damn paranoid and anal that even though it is not logical, we will STILL DO IT. The minority ruin it for the majority in almost every circumstance.


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## stuartdouglas

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Paul no country or state can *logically* ban legitimate legal keepers because of one or two illegal keepers. Come boet use your common sense mate.
> We in South Africa have different provinces (States) which all have different regulations but comply with a national regulation that compels us to apply and retain permits (licenses). The difference is that yes we have wild venomous animals so we as a nation are aware of the consequences. The other is that the keepers are the professionals were as the ‘conservation’ departments are politically run having little or no idea much like you in the UK.
> 
> If anyone wants to keep venomous he or she takes the responsibility and if anyone knew anything about snake’s they would realize that snakes do not attack but defend so will crawl into a hideaway and stay there if threatened so this will not cause a problem for anyone other than the handler.
> 
> Anyone being envenomated will have ample time to inform someone and or get to a medical facility as you do not live very far from one in a city.
> The bottom line: "Stop being so nosy and a busy-bodies by interfere with something most admitting to having zero knowledge or experience to have an opinion."
> Go speak to the bloke and maybe he will enlighten you.


The government can actually prevent us from owning anything if they so wish. Look what they did with rifles and handguns. Legal owners were penalised because of two incidents. despite the ban on handguns, gun crime has increased.....
There are organisations actively trying to outlaw the ownership of all exotic pets, it only takes one of them to have a sympathetic ear in the Commons for it to be on the cards for us all to be criminals


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## Ophexis

stuartdouglas said:


> There are organisations actively trying to outlaw the ownership of all exotic pets, it only takes one of them to have a sympathetic ear in the Commons for it to be on the cards for us all to be criminals


Really?! Oh good Lord, I'd best go put a towel over the gecko viv... Or pass it off as an empty fish tank :lol2:


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## wildlifewarrior

stuartdouglas said:


> The government can actually prevent us from owning anything if they so wish. Look what they did with rifles and handguns. Legal owners were penalised because of two incidents. despite the ban on handguns, gun crime has increased.....
> There are organisations actively trying to outlaw the ownership of all exotic pets, it only takes one of them to have a sympathetic ear in the Commons for it to be on the cards for us all to be criminals


Excalty....how many people again was it that said fox hunting would never EVER be banned aswell?


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## stuartdouglas

Ophexis said:


> Really?! Oh good Lord, I'd best go put a towel over the gecko viv... Or pass it off as an empty fish tank :lol2:


The RSPCA has actively been campaigning to prevent ownership of all exotic pets, based upon their statement that it "is impossible to provide them with their correct needs" or suchlike


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## Ophexis

stuartdouglas said:


> The RSPCA has actively been campaigning to prevent ownership of all exotic pets, based upon their statement that it "is impossible to provide them with their correct needs" or suchlike


The RSPCA... *snort* ... It amuses me that they have next to no knowledge of reptiles themselves and yet they're coming at exotics keepers with that 'accusation' of lack of proper husbandry. 
But you're right, all it will take is one 'sympathetic' politician to spread the word and we're all in cack.


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## leecb0

Firstly this is a thread about keeping DWAL and there are 75 posts but only 4 of us as far as i can see have a DWAL

my opinions on keeping without a DWAL are this and i would say are proberbly similar to STU you should only keep them with a valid DWAL.simple as that.
BUT......
I in the past have known VERY VERY good responsible knowledgable keepers of venomous snakes with the same sort of set up as any DWAL keeper who because of high fees by the local authority or a blatant "NO WE DO NOT ISSUE DWAL" policy have kept them illeagaly, even though they are very willing to do it properly.
I have also been on a raid many years ago with the RSPCA (not through choice i might add) on an illeagal keeper who had very poor knowledge and kept them in appauling and unsecure conditions.

on the flip side some councils do give out a DWAL veary easily, and i think its due to the theory of "well if he is asking to keep a deadly snake then he must know what he is doing"

As for the OP i would suggest to him he should get rid to a suitable person, Why not show him some youtube footage of what could happen to help persuade him


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## Ssthisto

You know, it might be a silly, silly question....

But is it definitely and absolutely a *rattlesnake* and not a rattlesnake-mimic, something that looks vaguely rattlesnakeish in terms of colour and perhaps does the S-up and tail-shaking job?

Maybe not a *rat* snake... but for example, Western Hognoses have more than a passing resemblance to a rattler, and a bull or pine snake will give a good go at doing the rattlesnake tail rattle (not to mention the S-up threat displays).


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## StuG

stuartdouglas said:


> See answers in blue above. In actuality, the DWA hasn't prevented any deaths. It was imposed in 1976. The last death in this country from a non-indigenous venomous snake was in the early 20th Century when a keeper at london Zoo went back to the reptile house after being *on the sauce* and decided to grab the zoo's Indian Cobra, it bit him in the face and he died. No private keepers have died before or since the inception of the DWA Act. The licensing system has not made it any sfaer to keep DW animals, in fact it's criminalised a lot of people who for one reaon or another are unable to afford or meet the ridiculous criteria set arbitrarily by Local authorities acting autonomously and to no set rules other than that they (The L.A's) can impose "such conditions as they see fit"


On the sauce is the best phrase ever!
First off i know next to nothing with regards to DWA listed snakes but 
if i was the OP i would use my own judgement.How would i feel if the snake dies due being kept incorrectly,if the owner was bitten?If a member of the public was bitten?
Theres plenty of options available,forget you know anything about it and ignore it or just report him but i would speak with him and list my concerns,im sure some DWA members on here wouldnt mind giving advice via PM and then try convince him to give the snake to someone properly equipped to deal with it.Then i would try and talk him into buying a Rhinoviv,it has nothing to do with the rattler but is good for me!
I think the most worrying aspect is someone prepared to sell DWA'S to anyone,hugely irresponsible IMO (unless the buyer is VPL).


----------



## rum&coke

HABU said:


> i'm a yank so i am biased... all i can say is 'what business is it of any government to tell someone what they can and cannot have in the privacy of their own home?
> 
> sure they can make a case about public safety and i'll buy that but so long as it's secure and not a blatant threat to the community... lives or property, then why all the hoopla?
> 
> and that said, why is it then that the requirements vary so much from place to place?
> 
> and what are the fees for?... are the employees of the people, the public servants not already paid by taxes?
> 
> ..or is the work load overseeing DWA critters so immense that they have to hire people full time to inspect caging and protocol for animals?
> 
> 
> is there a DWA office where trained professionals on the public payroll sit ready to head out and inspect the multitudes of DWA animals in the U.K.?
> 
> 
> seems like there at any given opportunity some fee or permit or inspection is needed for most everything...
> 
> 
> being a yank, it's of no concern to me other than just something that is over blown and exploited as a revenue generator on some pathetically tiny scale...
> 
> 
> the system in place there i don't think could ever go over here except in small municipalities... locally... that's fair enough... if a community doesn't want DWA types then sure they can make laws to ban or restrict it... one could just go to a DWA-friendly community...
> 
> but at a national level...
> 
> 
> i wouldn't be surprised if one needed a permit and test to run a lawn mower there... inherently dangerous things to operate in the wrong hands...
> 
> 
> 
> but if that's your way then so be it... personally i hate government in my home and in my personal business...
> 
> lastly, the laws and requirements should at the very least be standardized and sensible.... along with any fees.
> 
> 
> here no one cares and the sky hasn't as of yet fallen...: victory:


Mate we have to have a license hear to own a T.V how stupid is that!
Im sure most things over hear are mostly just to make money, The government loves to tax us and make us pay for anything and everything.


----------



## jasper1

leecb0 said:


> Firstly this is a thread about keeping DWAL and there are 75 posts but only 4 of us as far as i can see have a DWAL


I'm not trying to start an arguement Lee, but does the above comment mean that those without DWAL shouldn't post or have an opinion? 

I thought this forum includes all venomous, not just DWA? Out of the 30+ snakes I keep, only half a dozen are non-venomous, the others are all Opisthoglyph. 

And in the past I have kept many _Vipera lebetina_ & _Malpolon monspessulanus. _No DWAL needed as I lived in Cyprus. I was also mentored by one of the Island's main herp keepers. Probably easier to list what he didn't have than what he did lol

We aren't all 16 year wannabe's, just cos we have no DWA reps.


----------



## slippery42

rum&coke said:


> What a load of c**p all this if he is a responsible keeper then he is doing nothing wrong total rubbish.
> If he was a responsible keeper he would have a DWA licence.
> What do we think of people who keep snakes and dont take them to the vets when they get ill? How is this person gonna take the snake to the vets if he has no licence.
> Not to mention local hospitals knowing you have the snake and having access to anti-venom for if the keeper or member of the public gets tagged.


You obviously have no idea about this subject!

Period!


----------



## Fixx

My only concern with people keeping 'hots' illegally is the lack of third party insurance in the event that something goes wrong and an innocent member of the public gets hurt.


----------



## stuartdouglas

Fixx said:


> My only concern with people keeping 'hots' illegally is the lack of third party insurance in the event that something goes wrong and an innocent member of the public gets hurt.


How, exactly?


----------



## wildlifewarrior

Is your friend who has this snake called stacey by any chance:whistling2:


----------



## jasper1

Fixx said:


> My only concern with people keeping 'hots' illegally is the lack of third party insurance in the event that something goes wrong and an innocent member of the public gets hurt.


Do all the owners of large constictors have public liabilty insurance in case one of their reps goes on the rampage and start eating the public?

I'm not condoning keeping without DWAL, but I think some people are looking at it too black & white.


----------



## slippery42

Fixx said:


> My only concern with people keeping 'hots' illegally is the lack of third party insurance in the event that something goes wrong and an innocent member of the public gets hurt.


As Stuart said how?


----------



## Fixx

stuartdouglas said:


> How, exactly?


Who knows? Perhaps on entering the hot room, said keeper collapses with a massive heart attack, puts their foot through the front of a viv, snake escapes....paramedic attending gets bitten?

Keeper takes snake out in garden for photo shoot...snake escapes, bites child three doors up?


----------



## jasper1

Fixx said:


> Who knows? Perhaps on entering the hot room, said keeper collapses with a massive heart attack, puts their foot through the front of a viv, snake escapes....paramedic attending gets bitten?
> 
> Keeper takes snake out in garden for photo shoot...snake escapes, bites child three doors up?


and having insurance would prevent that how? The third party still gets bitten.


----------



## slippery42

Fixx said:


> Who knows? Perhaps on entering the hot room, said keeper collapses with a massive heart attack, puts their foot through the front of a viv, snake escapes....paramedic attending gets bitten?
> 
> Keeper takes snake out in garden for photo shoot...snake escapes, bites child three doors up?


So said unlucky Hot Keeper collapses and puts his size nine through the viv, the snake escapes and bits the paramedic, I do not think said keeper will give a flying fck, jesus what dumb post!

This is getting silly!

I'm sure most of us DWA keeper have better thing to do with our time so bye bye I'll catch the others on the other forum as I'm afraid this one has seriously pissed me off:bash::bash::bash:


----------



## Fixx

jasper1 said:


> and having insurance would prevent that how? The third party still gets bitten.


Having insurance does not prevent people having road accidents, but you have to have it so your point is moot.


----------



## SWMorelia

jasper1 said:


> Do all the owners of large constictors have public liabilty insurance in case one of their reps goes on the rampage and start eating the public?
> 
> I'm not condoning keeping without DWAL,* but I think some people are looking at it too black & white*.


Today everything comes down to method statements and risk assessments....
When doing a risk assessment every possible scenario is thought out and given points on how likely... The possible out come etc....
Your DWAL is based on risk assessments.....
Lets all do one now shall we....
Is it possible for a snake to bite a main vein or artery in the neck, resulting in a very quick death... If the answer is yes, go to the next question...
Is it possible for someone to get bitten by a venomous snake and not seek medical attention, and try and ride it out.... If the answer is yes, go to the next question....
Is it possible for someone to not secure the snake correctly, after, a main arterial bite..... If the answer is yes go to the next question....
Is it possible for some unsuspecting rescuer, to find an unconscious victim and not realize a venomous snake was involved.... Yes again???
No matter how far out the scenario.... It has to be taken into account when risk assessing.....
For DWAL keepers to say there is no danger to anyone other than the keeper means they are in denial after answering all risk assessment questions..... Or are we going to be biased in our outlook????


----------



## HABU

here across the pond we have a term for people who get bitten... fall down steps,... eat too much, drink too much or stub their toe...


dumb *ss!


we are not here responsible for dumb *sses...


what is it?

like in america, 95% of snake bite involve people under 21 and alcohol...


fools will be fools and no law will ever change that...


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Fixx said:


> My only concern with people keeping 'hots' illegally is the lack of third party insurance in the event that something goes wrong and an innocent member of the public gets hurt.


There is no statistics for that as previously mentioned as this has not happened world wide.
Being cautious is a good thing but as there are no statistics it then becomes some insurance company filling its pockets with nothing to lose.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Ultimately, if DWA listed species are kept without a license, then the keeper is breaking the law. That's the only clear cut, black and white aspect of it.
My opinion however, is that whilst the theory behind the license is sound, the application and administration of it is so ridiculously flawed it ceases to fulfil its intended purpose.
The license is supposed to protect the public by regulation and standardisation of keeping practices, not by prohibiting keeping of the listed species, but with escalating costs and totally unnecessary conditions put onto the license by some authorities, this is no longer the case. Like most things, it's become a money making exercise for the most part, or in some areas a convoluted way of saying no. It's no surprise to me that many people simply don't go down the licensed route. If the animals are securely housed and there is no danger of an escape, due to the keeper being responsible and experienced, then the public isn't at any risk. If the keeper adheres to the type of conditions set out in licensing guidelines, i.e locked enclosures, double doors, locked / blocked windows etc, then the snake is no more or less likely to escape and harm a bystander whether the owner is licensed or not.
Also, I seriously doubt the veracity of the story. Whilst I agree, it may occasionally happen that a moron can obtain a venomous snake, I say with some confidence that anyone obtaining one without permits would have to be known to the seller as competant and experienced. It would be too risky for the seller to let any idiot loose with a rattler.
As you may have gathered, I'm no fan of the licensing laws as they stand. I have one purely so I can't get "caught" and have my animals taken off me. I'm not worried about the public because I'm safe. The snakes are secure because I don't want to get bitten. The public are therefore safe by proxy. If I didn't have that bit of paper on the wall, they'd still be safe.


----------



## Fixx

Snakes Incorporated said:


> There is no statistics for that as previously mentioned as this has not happened world wide.
> Being cautious is a good thing but as there are no statistics it then becomes some insurance company filling its pockets with nothing to lose.


Flawed argument. No skyscraper ever collapsed due to fire until 9/11, does this mean Silverstiin was wrong in taking out half a billion dollars worth on the twin towers?

No Space Shuttle had exploded during launch until Columbia blew up...does this mean NASA should not have had insured the pilots of Columbia?

Nobody takes out insurance because they expect it to happen, or it has not happened before, you take it out in case something happens.


----------



## jasper1

Fixx said:


> Having insurance does not prevent people having road accidents, but you have to have it so your point is moot.


I'm not denying the above or condoning keeping illegally. But your concern was if a member of the public got bitten without insurance. The third party is still bitten with or without insurance in your scenarios. It's about keeping responsibily and yes having a DWAL will usually weed out the idiots, but there are no guarentees. The first scenario could happen to anyone. The second scenario should never happen; unless as I said, they are a complete cock. 

SW-morelia (apologies for not knowing your name), I agree with you, DWA should be kept with a DWAL, etc. What I was trying to say was having insurance won't prevent someone from getting bitten. Some people on here seem to think that cos you have insurance then everything is hunky dorey.

EDIT: Dave explained what I was trying to say.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

terciopelo_dave said:


> ...I'm safe. The snakes are secure because I don't want to get bitten. The public are therefore safe by proxy. If I didn't have that bit of paper on the wall, they'd still be safe.


Could not have said it better myself.


----------



## HABU

the laws DO lend some exclusivity to keeping hots now doesn't it?

get a DWA license and you'll have street creds?

... i'm just saying...


----------



## terciopelo_dave

HABU said:


> the laws DO lend some exclusivity to keeping hots now doesn't it?
> 
> get a DWA license and you'll have street creds?
> 
> ... i'm just saying...


Usually the people who bother to get the license are the ones who aren't into street cred. Those that care about such matters get pit bulls. They're easier to get and you can swagger down the street with it.


----------



## paulrimmer69

HABU said:


> the laws DO lend some exclusivity to keeping hots now doesn't it?
> 
> get a DWA license and you'll have street creds?
> 
> ... i'm just saying...


street cred??? if you tell people you keep venomous snakes they either think your a geek or just plain nuts!


----------



## stuartdouglas

paulrimmer69 said:


> street cred??? if you tell people you keep venomous snakes they either think your a geek or just plain nuts!


that's the case for "normal" people. However, when you consider the burberry wearing. staffy touting _"innit bruv, nah wot ah min, innit"_ crowd then keeping a venomous snake makes you look the hardest spotty chav in the pedestrian precinct.................innit


----------



## paulrimmer69

ahhhhh that explains viperlover then!


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

stuartdouglas said:


> ...keeping a venomous snake makes you look the hardest spotty chav in the pedestrian precinct.................innit


Yeah Ive seen these want-to-be`s who think that keeping venomous is a macho thing and find themselves bragging about what they have at every turn. 
These chops will all eventually do some hospital time and then lets hear how wonderful it was to look into the "white light" at the end of the tunnel?:crazy:


----------



## rum&coke

Ok look at it this way as you have all bin saying its not so dangerous to keep hots and if a responsible keeper has them underground because the licence is to expensive then he is doing no harm to anyone, How would you feel if the person next door to you had no T.V licence because he thought it was to expensive and he was doing no harm to anyone not having one, It sure would p*** me off that I was paying mine and he was just doing what he wanted and giving people up my road a bad name


----------



## stuartdouglas

rum&coke said:


> Ok look at it this way as you have all bin saying its not so dangerous to keep hots and if a responsible keeper has them underground because the licence is to expensive then he is doing no harm to anyone, How would you feel if the person next door to you had no T.V licence because he thought it was to expensive and he was doing no harm to anyone not having one, It sure would p*** me off that I was paying mine and he was just doing what he wanted and giving people up my road a bad name


So you'd report someone for having no TV license? Nobody's safety is at at risk there, so it makes sense that if you would report someone for not having a TV license, you'd also report soemone for driving past you exceeding the speed limit, someone driving around with no tax, therefore invalid insurance? These can directly and indirectly affect people's safety and wellbeing.

The crux of it is you'd be bitter about paying your license fee, despite the fact that you may only be paying £100 or so a year and Mr "underground" would have to be paying £2000-odd.
It's not about money, it's about the ability to keep the animal well and in safe conditions.


----------



## rum&coke

stuartdouglas said:


> So you'd report someone for having no TV license? Nobody's safety is at at risk there, so it makes sense that if you would report someone for not having a TV license, you'd also report soemone for driving past you exceeding the speed limit, someone driving around with no tax, therefore invalid insurance? These can directly and indirectly affect people's safety and wellbeing.
> 
> The crux of it is you'd be bitter about paying your license fee, despite the fact that you may only be paying £100 or so a year and Mr "underground" would have to be paying £2000-odd.
> It's not about money, it's about the ability to keep the animal well and in safe conditions.


how about benifit cheats also are you fine with them also, you dont mind that because others choose not to pay there way the rest of us have to pay for them?

you say 
"It's not about money, it's about the ability to keep the animal well and in safe conditions."

Very true and who makes that decision? who says if the keeper is doing all the right things and giving the animal the proper care and safty, Your way leaves it to the keeper to make that call, Your way anyone could keep hots because all they have to do is say they are a responsible keeper even if they have not been evaluated by anyone and even worse can then sell any offspring the snake makes to any tom dick or harry that also thinks they are responsible. Hell your way even I could claim to be a responsible hots keeper and fill a room with venomous snakes, even tho a few people have said I dont know what Im talking about on this thread, It would not matter because in your way all that matters is the keeper decides he is up to the job


----------



## Jczreptiles

Benefit cheats, people who don't pay their TV licence ect, if they are not harming me I won't report them as I am not obliged to do so, some people enjoy snitching I don't.


----------



## rum&coke

Jczreptiles said:


> Benefit cheats, people who don't pay their TV licence ect, if they are not harming me I won't report them as I am not obliged to do so, some people enjoy snitching I don't.


I dont think anyone enjoys snitching, but not many people enjoy getting mugged off by people who dont pay there way


----------



## mark elliott

Jczreptiles said:


> Benefit cheats, people who don't pay their TV licence ect, if they are not harming me I won't report them as I am not obliged to do so, some people enjoy snitching I don't.


 :2thumb:


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

*Occupied Europe during the 40`s there were people who snitched on their neighbors for the same reason mentioned on this thread. 
How does history consider these interfering nameless busy bodies who went out their way to caused divisions and unhappiness for no reason other than spite? 

If only everyone could mind their own business life would be bearable. *


----------



## HABU

Fixx said:


> Who knows? Perhaps on entering the hot room, said keeper collapses with a massive heart attack, puts their foot through the front of a viv, snake escapes....paramedic attending gets bitten?
> 
> Keeper takes snake out in garden for photo shoot...snake escapes, bites child three doors up?


----------



## HABU

Snakes Incorporated said:


> *Occupied Europe during the 40`s there were people who snitched on their neighbors for the same reason mentioned on this thread. *
> *How does history consider these interfering nameless busy bodies who went out their way to caused divisions and unhappiness for no reason other than spite? *
> 
> *If only everyone could mind their own business life would be bearable. *


 
careful now, you're thinking like a yank...: victory:


----------



## wildlifewarrior

HABU said:


> image


isnt that viper keeper on the end right?

when did he grow a tash?


----------



## paulrimmer69

Snakes Incorporated said:


> *Occupied Europe during the 40`s there were people who snitched on their neighbors for the same reason mentioned on this thread. *
> *How does history consider these interfering nameless busy bodies who went out their way to caused divisions and unhappiness for no reason other than spite? *
> 
> *If only everyone could mind their own business life would be bearable. *


at the end of the day i am only going off the info the op has provided us with
a) he said the keeper "does not know his arse from his elbow"
b) the keeper was 'told it was a rat snake'
c) the keepers believes that if it was recently milked it has no venom

going off this info would you say he is a keeper who should be messing with venomous? if the info is wrong and he is experienced with the right setup, secure room, bite protocols etc then fine let him get on with it, but all i can do is form an opinion on the info provided and so in my opinion he shouldnt have the snake as it could be a danger to himself, his family and possibly the public, like stuart has said it would only take one or two incidents to give the rspca etc enough ammunition to call for a ban and destroy a hobby we all have worked so hard for


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Paul has anyone spoken to this chap? If not then everything said is just guess work.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

paulrimmer69 said:


> at the end of the day i am only going off the info the op has provided us with
> a) he said the keeper "does not know his arse from his elbow"
> b) the keeper was 'told it was a rat snake'
> c) the keepers believes that if it was recently milked it has no venom
> 
> going off this info would you say he is a keeper who should be messing with venomous? if the info is wrong and he is experienced with the right setup, secure room, bite protocols etc then fine let him get on with it, but all i can do is form an opinion on the info provided and so in my opinion he shouldnt have the snake as it could be a danger to himself, his family and possibly the public, like stuart has said it would only take one or two incidents to give the rspca etc enough ammunition to call for a ban and destroy a hobby we all have worked so hard for


Couldn't agree more mate. If all the information provided by the OP is correct, then there is a potentially very dangerous situation. However, I personally don't believe that the snake really is a rattler. Too much just doesn't stack up.


----------



## Jczreptiles

terciopelo_dave said:


> Couldn't agree more mate. If all the information provided by the OP is correct, then there is a potentially very dangerous situation. However, I personally don't believe that the snake really is a rattler. *Too much just doesn't stack up*.


 Like the fact a rattlesnake has a rattle and an 8 year old or even younger child could spot the difference.


----------



## paulrimmer69

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Paul has anyone spoken to this chap? If not then everything said is just guess work.


we agree on something lol! it doesnt sound like it no, hopefully we might get an update soon


----------



## terciopelo_dave

rum&coke said:


> how about benifit cheats also are you fine with them also, you dont mind that because others choose not to pay there way the rest of us have to pay for them?
> 
> you say
> "It's not about money, it's about the ability to keep the animal well and in safe conditions."
> 
> Very true and who makes that decision? who says if the keeper is doing all the right things and giving the animal the proper care and safty, Your way leaves it to the keeper to make that call, Your way anyone could keep hots because all they have to do is say they are a responsible keeper even if they have not been evaluated by anyone and even worse can then sell any offspring the snake makes to any tom dick or harry that also thinks they are responsible. Hell your way even I could claim to be a responsible hots keeper and fill a room with venomous snakes, even tho a few people have said I dont know what Im talking about on this thread, It would not matter because in your way all that matters is the keeper decides he is up to the job


You can't grass someone up just because the situation annoys you. If you do then you're a d:censor:k. What about if by grassing someone up the animal ended up being destroyed. All because you were annoyed. Surely it's better to try to avert that by simply rehoming the animal without involving the authorities?
Also, you're missing the point on an epic scale when it comes to DWAL applications. You seem to think that some great, wise body oversees the inspections and deems the keeper ready to keep hots. Well trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. The keeper decides when they're ready to apply, the keeper decides what animal to obtain, the keeper sets up the enclosures and the protocols, etc, etc.
The a vet and a council inspector comes round for a look at your hot room. These people are almost never venomous snake keepers themselves, and always know less about the snakes than the applicant. The vet who inspected me was an aggricultural vet who kept trying to steer the conversation onto outbreaks of foot and mouth disease that he'd been involved with. Then he asked where I kept my antivenom. If I need to explain what's wrong with that, please feel free NOT to reply to this post. The council inspector on the other hand never said a word. Not one. He earnt his money then. You think those inspectors were the ones who decided I was ready to keep hots? No, that was all me. And why a vet? This isn't an issue of animal health. There weren't any sick animals that needed looking at. They were looking at locks and door systems. A joiner would be more suitable.
Do you realise now why you were told you don't know what you're talking about? It's because you don't. Try getting a clue before posting so confidently. I wouldn't try telling you about geckos, so don't try telling the DWA keepers on here about licensing.
Oh and one last thing, don't compare the DWAL with the TV license. It makes you look a tool.


----------



## Jczreptiles

terciopelo_dave said:


> You can't grass someone up just because the situation annoys you. If you do then you're a d:censor:k. What about if by grassing someone up the animal ended up being destroyed. All because you were annoyed. Surely it's better to try to avert that by simply rehoming the animal without involving the authorities?
> Also, you're missing the point on an epic scale when it comes to DWAL applications. You seem to think that some great, wise body oversees the inspections and deems the keeper ready to keep hots. Well trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. The keeper decides when they're ready to apply, the keeper decides what animal to obtain, the keeper sets up the enclosures and the protocols, etc, etc.
> The a vet and a council inspector comes round for a look at your hot room. These people are almost never venomous snake keepers themselves, and always know less about the snakes than the applicant. The vet who inspected me was an aggricultural vet who kept trying to steer the conversation onto outbreaks of foot and mouth disease that he'd been involved with. Then he asked where I kept my antivenom. If I need to explain what's wrong with that, please feel free NOT to reply to this post. The council inspector on the other hand never said a word. Not one. He earnt his money then. You think those inspectors were the ones who decided I was ready to keep hots? No, that was all me. And why a vet? This isn't an issue of animal health. There weren't any sick animals that needed looking at. They were looking at locks and door systems. A joiner would be more suitable.
> Do you realise now why you were told you don't know what you're talking about? It's because you don't. Try getting a clue before posting so confidently. I wouldn't try telling you about geckos, so don't try telling the DWA keepers on here about licensing.
> Oh and one last thing, don't compare the DWAL with the TV license. It makes you look a tool.


 Well said.
:no1::no1::no1:


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Jczreptiles said:


> Like the fact a rattlesnake has a rattle and an 8 year old or even younger child could spot the difference.


Yup, that'd do it. There's other aspects that just aren't credible, but the fact that anyone could overlook a rattle on the end of a tail is surely one of the most poignant.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Jczreptiles said:


> Well said.
> :no1::no1::no1:


Cheers mate. I feel it needed saying. I'll never win any public relations prizes, but i'm ok with that.


----------



## Jczreptiles

terciopelo_dave said:


> Cheers mate. I feel it needed saying. I'll never win any public relations prizes, but i'm ok with that.


 Not a bad way to be, especialy when people are talking about things they know little about and passing it off as fact (VPL springs to mind:whistling2.


----------



## Ssthisto

terciopelo_dave said:


> Yup, that'd do it. There's other aspects that just aren't credible, but the fact that anyone could overlook a rattle on the end of a tail is surely one of the most poignant.


As I said... it could well be a rattlesnake-mimicing essentially-harmless species, if the original poster hasn't actually *seen* the snake in its entirety. 

Incidentally, an agricultural vet? Surely getting a bunnies-and-birdies vet would be more appropriate, since at least those are kept in cages....


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Agreed. It's probably an angry corn.
And yes, you heard right. I was last inspected by an agricultural vet. I don't wish to criticise the man, he's probably excellent and I'm sure he's saved the lives of many animals. Hell, if I had issues with lambing I'd be on the phone to him like a shot. But to decide whether I could or couldn't keep venomous snakes, he was woefully under qualified.


----------



## Ssthisto

terciopelo_dave said:


> Agreed. It's probably an angry corn.


Or a young bullsnake. Or a feisty hognose - our hognose is all too happy to pretend to be EVERY venomous snake out there. Cobra, rattlesnake, he'll even do the arboreal bit....



> And yes, you heard right. I was last inspected by an agricultural vet. I don't wish to criticise the man, he's probably excellent and I'm sure he's saved the lives of many animals. Hell, if I had issues with lambing I'd be on the phone to him like a shot. But to decide whether I could or couldn't keep venomous snakes, he was woefully under qualified.


*nod* That said I've been in the position of wanting the cat-and-dog vet to see my reptiles instead of letting the "exotics" vet see them, because at least the cat and dog vet will listen to what I'm trying to tell them AND can tell me "Yes, that looks infected" or "no, it doesn't look infected" without making assumptions about perfectly normal rusty-coloured belly markings being "Horrific septicaemia due to scale rot..."


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Ssthisto said:


> *nod* That said I've been in the position of wanting the cat-and-dog vet to see my reptiles instead of letting the "exotics" vet see them, because at least the cat and dog vet will listen to what I'm trying to tell them AND can tell me "Yes, that looks infected" or "no, it doesn't look infected" without making assumptions about perfectly normal rusty-coloured belly markings being "Horrific septicaemia due to scale rot..."


Sadly, many "reptile specialist vets" are not reptile keepers. I think that's what's often lacking.


----------



## spiderman13

To be honest anybody who thinks ther"re hard having a venomous snake hasnt met my brass knuckles and me :lol2:

but seriously if your m8/boyfriend or whatever hasnt a liesense then either get one or give up the snake cause at the end of the day when it gets sick / you get bit you will hav too say you aint got a liesense and you"ll find out how bad it is the hard way..i believe no DWA animal should be allowed in the pet-trade because people may think they know what ther"re talking about but the animal is better off in the wild where it belongs but still i would love a DWA specis os snake but would only get one if i had the proper documents to own it legaly.. i think you should give it to a zoo or some snake expert! and if your boyfriend hasnt got a liesense then the snake is most likey in terrible condition due to you cant take it to a exotis pet vet for check outs and all,:censor: hell man give it up thats terrible keeping a venomous snake ahh well we"ll al prob see on the 110pm news that a keeper has been biten by a deadly snake and then you will know ....:whistling2: no dissrespect to you m8 but honestly:whip:


----------



## Ssthisto

1. Why are DWA species any different to any other species, other than requiring a licence? They no more (and no less) "belong in the wild" than a corn snake does.

2. Yes, vet care would be a problem if you had an unlicenced hot.... but that doesn't automatically mean that the snake is unhealthy *right now*. I have quite a few (nonvenomous, non-licence-requiring) snakes who have never seen a vet because they've never needed to.

If the original poster's "mate" doesn't know what he's got before he gets it home, he's not suited to owning a snake of any sort, however!


----------



## wildlifewarrior

terciopelo_dave said:


> Sadly, many "reptile specialist vets" are not reptile keepers. I think that's what's often lacking.


Very true...however i am lucky enough to have a good friend who is a vet who i work with and shes one of a few vets who actually keeps DWA..even fewer a females who keeps DWA.



spiderman13 said:


> To be honest anybody who thinks ther"re hard having a venomous snake hasnt met my brass knuckles and me :lol2:
> 
> but seriously if your m8/boyfriend or whatever hasnt a liesense then either get one or give up the snake cause at the end of the day when it gets sick / you get bit you will hav too say you aint got a liesense and you"ll find out how bad it is the hard way..i believe no DWA animal should be allowed in the pet-trade because people may think they know what ther"re talking about but the animal is better off in the wild where it belongs


whats your brass knuckles got to do with this? are you suddenly jean-claude van damme now? or just another typical forum hard man who believes they live in a world where being "hard" wins you arguments?

no offence but your talking out your cack hole


----------



## terciopelo_dave

spiderman13 said:


> To be honest anybody who thinks ther"re hard having a venomous snake hasnt met my brass knuckles and me :lol2:
> 
> but seriously if your m8/boyfriend or whatever hasnt a liesense then either get one or give up the snake cause at the end of the day when it gets sick / you get bit you will hav too say you aint got a liesense and you"ll find out how bad it is the hard way..i believe no DWA animal should be allowed in the pet-trade because people may think they know what ther"re talking about but the animal is better off in the wild where it belongs but still i would love a DWA specis os snake but would only get one if i had the proper documents to own it legaly.. i think you should give it to a zoo or some snake expert! and if your boyfriend hasnt got a liesense then the snake is most likey in terrible condition due to you cant take it to a exotis pet vet for check outs and all,:censor: hell man give it up thats terrible keeping a venomous snake ahh well we"ll al prob see on the 110pm news that a keeper has been biten by a deadly snake and then you will know ....:whistling2: no dissrespect to you m8 but honestly:whip:


If you never expressed another opinion on this part of the forum, believe me, there would be a lot of very grateful people.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

terciopelo_dave said:


> If you never expressed another opinion on this part of the forum, believe me, there would be a lot of very grateful people.


I`ll second that.


----------



## rum&coke

terciopelo_dave said:


> You can't grass someone up just because the situation annoys you. If you do then you're a d:censor:k. What about if by grassing someone up the animal ended up being destroyed. All because you were annoyed. Surely it's better to try to avert that by simply rehoming the animal without involving the authorities?
> Also, you're missing the point on an epic scale when it comes to DWAL applications. You seem to think that some great, wise body oversees the inspections and deems the keeper ready to keep hots. Well trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. The keeper decides when they're ready to apply, the keeper decides what animal to obtain, the keeper sets up the enclosures and the protocols, etc, etc.
> The a vet and a council inspector comes round for a look at your hot room. These people are almost never venomous snake keepers themselves, and always know less about the snakes than the applicant. The vet who inspected me was an aggricultural vet who kept trying to steer the conversation onto outbreaks of foot and mouth disease that he'd been involved with. Then he asked where I kept my antivenom. If I need to explain what's wrong with that, please feel free NOT to reply to this post. The council inspector on the other hand never said a word. Not one. He earnt his money then. You think those inspectors were the ones who decided I was ready to keep hots? No, that was all me. And why a vet? This isn't an issue of animal health. There weren't any sick animals that needed looking at. They were looking at locks and door systems. A joiner would be more suitable.
> Do you realise now why you were told you don't know what you're talking about? It's because you don't. Try getting a clue before posting so confidently. I wouldn't try telling you about geckos, so don't try telling the DWA keepers on here about licensing.
> Oh and one last thing, don't compare the DWAL with the TV license. It makes you look a tool.


Wow your a nice guy aren't you, You call me a d**k and a tool and come over really aggressive just because I have a different opinion to you.
I don't know much about venemous snakes or the DWAL but I am not, nor have I ever posted anything saying that I do, nor have I given any advice on any animals I dont keep. I do feel I can have an opinion about if I think its ok for a person to break the law and that was what this thread is about. Yes I think its wrong to not live by the rules and laws of the society you live in, even if those laws sometimes seem trivial or victimless, If you dont like the laws of the country you know where the airport is.
Yes I likened the op to other topics such as T.v licence and other things, to make the point that a law is a law and they all need to be followed, what may seem like nothing to you, may be a big problem for another person, and its unfair and anti-social to just make up you own mind and disregard any laws.


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## Snakes Incorporated

rum&coke said:


> ...Yes I think its wrong to not live by the rules and laws of the society you live in, even if those laws sometimes seem trivial or victimless,...


The law is one think but being trivial is another? The spirit of the law is for the good of everyone. Having cowards run off and squeal about something they think having no accurate information is immature and rude. 
If it does not affect or involve you why make a big deal out of it?


----------



## rum&coke

Snakes Incorporated said:


> The law is one think but being trivial is another? The spirit of the law is for the good of everyone. Having cowards run off and squeal about something they think having no accurate information is immature and rude.
> If it does not affect or involve you why make a big deal out of it?


And expecting other people to turn a blind eye or cover for crimes is manipulation and selfish at best


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

rum&coke said:


> And expecting other people to turn a blind eye or cover for crimes is manipulation and selfish at best


Yeah J-walking is a crime so do you report your family and “friends” while you stand like a good little boy waiting for the light to change?
Do you report your dad or your mom when they exceed the speed limit?


----------



## terciopelo_dave

rum&coke said:


> Wow your a nice guy aren't you, You call me a d**k and a tool and come over really aggressive just because I have a different opinion to you.
> I don't know much about venemous snakes or the DWAL but I am not, nor have I ever posted anything saying that I do, nor have I given any advice on any animals I dont keep. I do feel I can have an opinion about if I think its ok for a person to break the law and that was what this thread is about. Yes I think its wrong to not live by the rules and laws of the society you live in, even if those laws sometimes seem trivial or victimless, If you dont like the laws of the country you know where the airport is.
> Yes I likened the op to other topics such as T.v licence and other things, to make the point that a law is a law and they all need to be followed, what may seem like nothing to you, may be a big problem for another person, and its unfair and anti-social to just make up you own mind and disregard any laws.


I'm not going to be drawn into an argument with you, but it's pretty audacious for you to call me aggressive, considering the nature of virtually all of your previous posts. You even had a pop at Stuart when he tried agreeing with you.
And while we're talking about your previous posts, why don't you try re-reading them? If you're convinced you stuck to expressing opinions and didn't pass comment on aspects of the DWAL scheme that you clearly have no experience with, you may be in for a shock.


----------



## rogersspider2007

i know this is off topic but there ws a guydriving behind me today and he was on his mobile phone ( while driving ) should i report him or not?


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## Jczreptiles

rogersspider2007 said:


> i know this is off topic but there ws a guydriving behind me today and he was on his mobile phone ( while driving ) should i report him or not?


 No that is the job of the police to spot not for members of the public to become their runners and snitches.


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## rogersspider2007

i know that but just trying to put my point across to some answers to this thread and i agree as long as he has bite protocols an its secure etc and most importantly of course he knows how to look after it. i know the LA has its faults and believe me i know from experience i do understand why people do it this way but as long no ones lifes are at risk.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

rogersspider2007 said:


> i know this is off topic but there ws a guydriving behind me today and he was on his mobile phone ( while driving ) should i report him or not?


Send his plate number, time, date, direction traveled and map details to rum&coke because he feels its unfair that you could even consider thinking of "turning a blind eye" on *crime*.:blahblah:


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## rogersspider2007

that was exactly what i was getting at


----------



## rum&coke

terciopelo_dave said:


> I'm not going to be drawn into an argument with you, but it's pretty audacious for you to call me aggressive, considering the nature of virtually all of your previous posts. You even had a pop at Stuart when he tried agreeing with you.
> And while we're talking about your previous posts, why don't you try re-reading them? If you're convinced you stuck to expressing opinions and didn't pass comment on aspects of the DWAL scheme that you clearly have no experience with, you may be in for a shock.


Not Passing comment on the DWAL when talking about it is pretty hard not to do ,I in no way said I have had experience of it or hold one or even want to, To not agree with a person is not aggressive but to bring yourself down to name calling is. Dont worry I wont be drawn into an argument with you as I doubt you could offer anything other than insults or maybe twist my words or take them out of context



Snakes Incorporated said:


> Send his plate number, time, date, direction traveled and map details to rum&coke because he feels its unfair that you could even consider thinking of "turning a blind eye" on *crime*.:blahblah:


I do feel its unfair to break rules others have to follow, I feel this stupid idea that its wrong to snitch as you call it puts people in nasty situations, Look at the OP and how his friend has put him in a position that he is on hear asking for advice, Not his problem not his choice to break a rule, but hay he's the good guy he didnt snitch but still why would a mate put you in a position where you have to deal with his wrongs.
And for the record no I have never sniched on anybody for anything maybe thats because I choose friends that will not drag me into the s**t with them


----------



## spiderman13

Hi, what you talking about im talking outa my crack hole m8??? :devil:
i know way way way way more than you know about venomous snakes
and will win a argument anytime so if your going to start yapping i suggest you leave... i know for a fact that all VENOMOUS ANIMALS belong in the wild not in a arse holes house... and for my brass knuckles it was a jolk or are you just wanting a argument that your never going too win so hah:Na_Na_Na_Na:..... you all were yapping at the guy know you are all licking his :censor:
i think yous need to learn about snakes b4 reading it from a book while your typing.. so do not start on me k cause u will get kicked off here m8. :blah::naughty: thats too that guy by the way


()()()()
)===( :lol2:..............


----------



## spiderman13

wildlifewarrior said:


> Very true...however i am lucky enough to have a good friend who is a vet who i work with and shes one of a few vets who actually keeps DWA..even fewer a females who keeps DWA.
> 
> 
> 
> whats your brass knuckles got to do with this? are you suddenly jean-claude van damme now? or just another typical forum hard man who believes they live in a world where being "hard" wins you arguments?
> 
> no offence but your talking out your cack hole


 shut your silly wee mouth m8 you havnt a clue how to look after a venomous snake and either do i so hah:Na_Na_Na_Na: the brass knuckle thing was a JOLK or are you blind ?!?! dont start argueing with me m8 im thinking of the animals welfare if he gets caught with a vemonous snake it will be put down which is :censor: cruel... no offence but your talking threw your arse m8 you needa look up in the dicionary what JOLK means ok... cya :Na_Na_Na_Na: ooh and yes i have a collection of real ameriacan brass knuckles just for the record>..........so you can fight if you want but we all know who will win....ME ()()()()
)=( knucklez !!!!!!!!!!!:naughty: your funny:roll2:


----------



## Oderus

spiderman13 said:


> i know for a fact that all VENOMOUS ANIMALS belong in the wild not in a arse holes house...


That's a fair view if you don't keep any venomous or wild animals, but as you do which of these has to go back to the wild.. :Na_Na_Na_Na:



spiderman13 said:


> *1 *_*brachpelma smithi..1 citharischius crawshayi...1 eupalaestrus campestsratus...1 Avicularia sp "kwitara...1 hysterocrates gigas...Grammostola rosea*... more....+ a *bearded dragon* and 2 leopard geckos and a rottweiler dog_


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## Ssthisto

spiderman13 said:


> Hi know way way way way more than you know about venomous snakes


Based on what I've seen of Wildlifewarrior's experience with all sorts of snakes, including non-DWA rear-fanged venomous - and Terciopelo_Dave's experience with front-fanged venomous.... I am not convinced by this argument. 

No, I don't personally keep DWA venomous (though I do have a western hognose, who is a rear-fanged animal... and we may eventually apply for a DWA to keep a few other things we're interested in) but if your signature lists all the reptiles you keep and you haven't kept much else, I have experience with more species than you do. I also lived in the USA, where some of the animals we think of as WOW exotic over here - like rattlesnakes and black widows - could be found in your back garden, the shed and while out for a walk.



> i know for a fact that all VENOMOUS ANIMALS belong in the wild not in a arse holes house


But why do *venomous* animals somehow belong in the wild more than your possibly-wild-caught tarantulas (which, as Oderus has pointed out, are venomous...) or any non-venomous reptile pet, whose grandparents came from the wild? Corn snakes are just as much "wild animals" as rattlesnakes, and an albino rattlesnake is not going to do any better in the wild than an albino ratsnake does.



> so do not start on me k cause u will get kicked off here m8. :blah::naughty: thats too that guy by the way


I would have thought only someone with a green Moderator sticker can kick anyone off here... and you've not got a Moderator sticker. Calling other members offensive names (whether it's aimed at me, who isn't a guy, or Terciopelo - who is - since you haven't directly quoted either of us to make it clear who you're talking about...) isn't exactly by-the-books behaviour, either  



> if he gets caught with a vemonous snake it will be put down which is :censor: cruel...


Being euthanised is not cruel. It's sad, but it's not CRUEL. Now, if that snake really IS a rattlesnake, and it's not being kept adequately, releasing it into the wild would be cruel. Leaving it without appropriate care would be cruel. Failure to take it to a vet would be cruel.

But *if *it is a rattlesnake, the original poster's mate really does need to give it to someone who *has* a licence and can ensure its long term care.... 



> you needa look up in the dicionary what JOLK means ok


It may help, when doing that dictionary search, if folks spell it "Joke".



Oderus said:


> That's a fair view if you don't keep any venomous or wild animals, but as you do which of these has to go back to the wild.. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Very good point. I'd best start packing up Hoggle the Western Hognose to go live with my mum; he may not be Bernalillo County locality, but at least my mum's in the middle of their natural range. Maybe she can do some sort of phased release, or something. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with Isotope the albino Radiated Ratsnake, though... I know he's not technically actually venomous, but he might have venom-precursors, and we'd be best safe than sorry. I suppose I need to find him somewhere where being bright white and neon orange is camouflage. Any suggestions? Blackpool Pleasure Beach maybe? Alton Towers? I bet he'd like Alton Towers. I could go visit him, too.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

spiderman13 said:


> ... i know for a fact that all VENOMOUS ANIMALS belong in the wild not in a arse holes house... ..


Crud boy how old are you really? You don’t sound old enough to have an opinion without your parent’s guidance. Want-to-be street punks like you should be at least 16 before being allowed to type on open forums like this. 

Dang rum&coke here is your opportunity to snitch. Contact child services quick.


----------



## Jczreptiles

spiderman13 said:


> shut your silly wee mouth m8 you havnt a clue how to look after a venomous snake and either do i so hah:Na_Na_Na_Na: the brass knuckle thing was a JOLK or are you blind ?!?! dont start argueing with me m8 im thinking of the animals welfare if he gets caught with a vemonous snake it will be put down which is :censor: cruel... no offence but your talking threw your arse m8 you needa look up in the *dicionary what JOLK means ok*... cya :Na_Na_Na_Na: ooh and yes i have a collection of real ameriacan brass knuckles just for the record>..........so you can fight if you want but we all know who will win....ME ()()()()
> )=( knucklez !!!!!!!!!!!:naughty: your funny:roll2:


 I have never read a dicionary TBH, what is it? I have read a dictionary but the word jolk was not in there, the is a choice between yolk or joke which one did you mean in your infinite knowlege? When you do look in the right book look up the word troll and let me know what it means just so you know what i'm calling you and your brass knuckles:whistling2:


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## Jczreptiles

spiderman13 said:


> Hi, what you talking about im talking outa my crack hole m8??? :devil:
> i know way way way way more than you know about venomous snakes
> and will win a argument anytime so if your going to start yapping i suggest you leave... *i know for a fact that all VENOMOUS ANIMALS belong in the wild not in a arse holes house.*.. and for my brass knuckles it was a jolk or are you just wanting a argument that your never going too win so hah:Na_Na_Na_Na:..... you all were yapping at the guy know you are all licking his :censor:
> i think yous need to learn about snakes b4 reading it from a book while your typing.. so do not start on me k cause u will get kicked off here m8. :blah::naughty: thats too that guy by the way
> 
> 
> ()()()()
> )===( :lol2:..............


 No that is an opinion not fact, a fact is your head belongs on your shoulders not up your ass which is where it seems to be located at the moment.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

Ok normally i wouldnt rise to a troll...but what the hell...am bored



spiderman13 said:


> Hi, what you talking about im talking outa my crack hole m8??? :devil:


Its called CACK ....not crack...unless you shove drugs up your bum..however i would imagine that exit is reserved for your lover: victory:



spiderman13 said:


> i know way way way way more than you know about venomous snakes
> and will win a argument anytime so if your going to start yapping i suggest you leave...


Really? seriously you want to down this road? ....ok thats fine but dont say i didnt warn you dude....



spiderman13 said:


> i know for a fact that all VENOMOUS ANIMALS belong in the wild not in a arse holes house.


why venomous and not non venomous...what about rear fanged? do they live half and half then?



spiderman13 said:


> and for my brass knuckles it was a jolk



whats a jolk?




spiderman13 said:


> i think yous need to learn about snakes b4 reading it from a book while your typing.


Thats going to be awkward considering i am already in the process of writing 2 books on herpetculture



spiderman13 said:


> so do not start on me k cause u will get kicked off here m8.


trust me...i dont need your help to get banned.



spiderman13 said:


> shut your silly wee mouth m8


wee mouth? who wees in there mouth?




spiderman13 said:


> you havnt a clue how to look after a venomous snake


are you serious? lol....i grew up in france with asp vipers as the hurdles we had to jump over on sports day at school. i grew up in a zoo...my cousin has a pretty good sized hot collection in france...oh yea and i also have a PSL...so go figure



spiderman13 said:


> the brass knuckle thing was a JOLK or are you blind ?!?!


whats a JOLK...is it like a jolk but with more shouting?



spiderman13 said:


> what JOLK means ok.


Just looked it up and it says "a person with many mental difficulties from being repeatedly dropped on there head as a child"



spiderman13 said:


> ooh and yes i have a collection of real ameriacan brass knuckles just for the record>..........so you can fight if you want but we all know who will win....ME


Ok firstly i dont agree with violence at all...secondly if your "ARD" then why do you need a weapon....and finally...are you really "starting" on a rugby player of 12 years? it wont end well for you mate: victory:


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

wildlifewarrior said:


> ...JOLK..."a person with many mental difficulties from being repeatedly dropped on there head as a child"


This was more than a laugh. Thanks I enjoyed that. :lol2:


----------



## rum&coke

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Crud boy how old are you really? You don’t sound old enough to have an opinion without your parent’s guidance. Want-to-be street punks like you should be at least 16 before being allowed to type on open forums like this.
> 
> Dang rum&coke here is your opportunity to snitch. Contact child services quick.


Hey just because I said I would report a crime if it bothered me I did not say I would report any and every crime and wrong doing ever made,You sugested that! However I do think the guys teachers need reporting as to not be able to spell joke is a joke.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

rum&coke said:


> ... teachers need reporting as to not be able to spell joke is a joke.


True to form mate. Quickly go report him to the spell police:whip: 

You never answered the questions.

How many people have you report J-Walking and have you reported your parents when they drive oner the recommended speed limit?
How about those people who drive and talk on cells. Do you take there details and report them?


----------



## leecb0

jasper1 said:


> I'm not trying to start an arguement Lee, but does the above comment mean that those without DWAL shouldn't post or have an opinion? No it was just an abservation
> 
> I thought this forum includes all venomous, not just DWA? Out of the 30+ snakes I keep, only half a dozen are non-venomous, the others are all Opisthoglyph. You are indeed correct this FORUM is for all reptiles but THIS is the DWAL section, Which is where DWAL animals are discussed
> 
> And in the past I have kept many _Vipera lebetina_ & _Malpolon monspessulanus. _No DWAL needed as I lived in Cyprus. I was also mentored by one of the Island's main herp keepers. Probably easier to list what he didn't have than what he did lol so you live in Ireland and have a limited Knowledge of the DWAL in the UK???
> 
> We aren't all 16 year wannabe's, just cos we have no DWA reps.


The point i was making that there had only been 4 or so people who had commented on the thread that were actual legal DWAL holders, and it seemed that a few were beating down what was being said by them, by those who from my observation have no clue what they are talking about. Also everyone has a right to there opinion and i totaly defend that right but just because your stance is different to ours does not mean they are right and also just because we have DWAL's does not mean we are rightious. 
getting back to the OP's question
The guy seems to have no clue to what he is doing or what he is keeping, as i said if this is the case perhaps the OP should get the guy to give it up to some one who knows what he is doing. simple as that how anyone can think this is the wrong course of action then i give up:bash:
If he or anybody else gets bitten this could have a detrimental effect on not just DWAL holders but the hobby as a whole all you need is one animal rights numpty to get wind then you have allsorts of problems. remember they used to say they could never ban Fox hunting


----------



## AdamWTF

@Snakes Incorporated.
All I've seen so far is you standing up for people which fair enough some of your points I agree with. However think of this for a moment, say you lived next door to the guy who is keeping this snake... You would have no idea about it really I mean, it's in his house right? What's actually to say your neighbour dosen't keep a dangerous snake? Correct? Well anyway, say your next door neightbour is the person in question and the snake escapes, then say the snake has made it's way to your garden, or just generally out the house. Now what if it was to bite your kids? I don't know if you have kids, but I'm guessing if you did have young children they wouldn't be fearful of snakes. Being as I guess you do keep them. They could try touch this snake, catch it anything? Thinking it's safe... Now tell me how you'd react? Try and tell me you wouldn't wanna break the legs of the person who was keeping the snake... End of the day your standing up for sommin for the wrong reasons, yes people like this are the people who ruin it for everybody. It's because of people like this though that the rules were put in places. This is just my 2 cents and feel free to not listen to what I have said I think I make a good points though.


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## Eyelashviper

IMO

It's clearly not a rattlesnake is it? Come on? 

IF someone was to keep a DWA animal without a licence and they were responsible what is the problem? A man has the right to keep what he likes within the grounds of his home.

Not sure how it has been on the subjects of TV Licence evasion, and benefit fraud, 'some' people are far too concerned with other peoples business nowadays.

I certainly wouldn't inform the authorities as this would, and does act as a 'domino' effect upon other issues.

The 'rattlesnake' in question would most certainly be destroyed.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

AdamWTF said:


> … say you lived next door to the guy who is keeping this snake...


I would approach him/her with the rumor and find out from the individual directly what is what. Not confront but as a matter of interest. 



AdamWTF said:


> …snake escapes, then say the snake has made it's way to your garden, or just generally out the house. Now what if it was to bite your kids? … Now tell me how you'd react?


This has never happened worldwide so no statistics are available but OK lets say it happens. Firstly I live in a country where we actually have wild snakes. My first prioarity would be to get the victim to the closest emergency facility and then deal with my neighbour. 



AdamWTF said:


> ..I don't know if you have kids..


I am a grandparent so I can safely say I have kids, yes



AdamWTF said:


> ..keep a dangerous snake..


This is not correct because the word you are looking for is ‘venomous’. Dangerous depends on the situation and the potential threat to the said animal. Snakes do not just attack people but choose to take flight if given the option. Some species will camouflage themselves to avoid contact while others will stand their ground but will signal that you are invading their space etc.

What is your question then James?


----------



## pythondave82

I think all venomous keepers are bonkers!


----------



## slippery42

AdamWTF said:


> @Snakes Incorporated.
> All I've seen so far is you standing up for people which fair enough some of your points I agree with. However think of this for a moment, say you lived next door to the guy who is keeping this snake... You would have no idea about it really I mean, it's in his house right? What's actually to say your neighbour dosen't keep a dangerous snake? Correct? Well anyway, say your next door neightbour is the person in question and the snake escapes, then say the snake has made it's way to your garden, or just generally out the house. Now what if it was to bite your kids? I don't know if you have kids, but I'm guessing if you did have young children they wouldn't be fearful of snakes. Being as I guess you do keep them. They could try touch this snake, catch it anything? Thinking it's safe... Now tell me how you'd react? Try and tell me you wouldn't wanna break the legs of the person who was keeping the snake... End of the day your standing up for sommin for the wrong reasons, yes people like this are the people who ruin it for everybody. It's because of people like this though that the rules were put in places. This is just my 2 cents and feel free to not listen to what I have said I think I make a good points though.


Oh shit I got drawn in again!

Your statement above seems to make an assumption that if said individual  was a licensed DWA holder then you (as next door neighbour) would know that he had venomous species, WTF ever gave you that idea?

Most people who legally keep DWA species will most probably keep their passion to themselves and neighbours will never know what they keep.

There is nothing to say that that a legal keeper will necessarily keep their snakes safer than a careful illegal keeper.

A piece of paper isnt the be all and end all.

You are making assumptions on something you clearly have absolutely no idea about!

Like I said I got drawn in again, you knew I would!


----------



## rum&coke

Snakes Incorporated said:


> True to form mate. Quickly go report him to the spell police:whip:
> 
> You never answered the questions.
> 
> How many people have you report J-Walking and have you reported your parents when they drive oner the recommended speed limit?
> How about those people who drive and talk on cells. Do you take there details and report them?


J-walking lol do you live in an 70's american cop show? is that where you got the idea that snitching is wrong and got you moral or misplaced loyalty to random people who have not earned your respect?
To answer your question I have not reported anyone for anything ever, Thats not to say I would not if I wanted to, I do not feel the need to protect and defend random peoples wrong doings. TBH its you that has blown the fact that I respect the law and made it out to look like I'm some kind of nazi that would report a person for dropping a crisp packet, To be fair my fault for not seeing the trap you laid by asking the question in the first place, but I was expecting you to have more valid points to your argument than to go for such a cheap shot and start twisting the meaning of my point of view.
Really I cant see why you and a few others on hear have got so wound up by it all, I dont feel like I have been insulting to anybody or disrespecting of others points of view even if I did not agree with them. In fact I do have a bit of sympathy for what you have been saying about the cost and officials involved with the DWAL but in the end I still feel like its a clear choice to break that law and if anyone breaks it they only have themselfs to blame


----------



## leecb0

Eyelashviper said:


> IMO
> 
> It's clearly not a rattlesnake is it? Come on?
> 
> IF someone was to keep a DWA animal without a licence and they were responsible what is the problem? A man has the right to keep what he likes within the grounds of his home.
> I agree people should have the right to keep and do what they like within the confides of there own domicile. but there should always be legislation to protect the public from the many idiots we have living in this wondefull country of ours, hence why we have a DWAL to stop just anyone having say a tiger roaming around there property. Think of the poor postman its bad enough hundreds are attacked by dogs never mind being mauled by a feckin tiger
> 
> Not sure how it has been on the subjects of TV Licence evasion, and benefit fraud, 'some' people are far too concerned with other peoples business nowadays.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't inform the authorities as this would, and does act as a 'domino' effect upon other issues.
> Does it?? as i have stated people have been done for keeping them illeagally. and unless you were in the know i doubt you here about it and its never really made a difference to applying for and obtaining a DWAL.
> But someone gets nailed and the press get to here of it well who knows,
> just look at the media coverage thats been made of the "so called" venomous snake loose in wales at the moment
> 
> 
> The 'rattlesnake' in question would most certainly be destroyed.
> This is not true i have personally been on a raid of an illeagal keeper (12 years ago) and out of 50 plus snakes we took the only ones that were destroyed were the very sick animals. most went to zoo's and private keepers with the relevent experience and Dwal


 
remember it should be a privalage to look after and keep any animal not a right


----------



## Eyelashviper

leecb0 said:


> remember it should be a privalage to look after and keep any animal not a right


Where I said it has a domino effect, I was referring to say for example, you were my friend and I informed the police of you keeping illegal animals.

As I would assume someone whom keeps such things as, snakes, guns, whatever, would keep the fact they own them within a close circle.

However if someone is so blase about it then that's a different matter I guess.


Regarding the snake(s) being eutanized, maybe this is a grey area, where individual cases are judged on their own merits. (In fairness I have no idea)


----------



## terciopelo_dave

rum&coke said:


> Not Passing comment on the DWAL when talking about it is pretty hard not to do ,I in no way said I have had experience of it or hold one or even want to, To not agree with a person is not aggressive but to bring yourself down to name calling is. Dont worry I wont be drawn into an argument with you as I doubt you could offer anything other than insults or maybe twist my words or take them out of context
> 
> 
> 
> I do feel its unfair to break rules others have to follow, I feel this stupid idea that its wrong to snitch as you call it puts people in nasty situations, Look at the OP and how his friend has put him in a position that he is on hear asking for advice, Not his problem not his choice to break a rule, but hay he's the good guy he didnt snitch but still why would a mate put you in a position where you have to deal with his wrongs.
> And for the record no I have never sniched on anybody for anything maybe thats because I choose friends that will not drag me into the s**t with them


To be honest, I AGREE with you that it's not fair to obey laws that others freely break, and personally there are things I most certainly would report. If I saw someone breaking into someone's home, I'd report it. If I saw a mugging, I'd intervene and report it. But with TV licenses etc, they'll most likely be caught all on their own so I'd let them get on with it.
When there is a live animal involved, I wouldn't report it. If there was genuinely a rattler being kept by someone utterly clueless, which in this case I don't think there is, but if there was, I'd intervene and suggest they rehomed the animal. I'd even take it myself. That would benefit the keeper, his friends and family, and the snake. If it was reported it is highly likely the animal would be destroyed. Personally, I'd rather that didn't happen. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to happen, but surely sometimes it's better to consider the knock on effect of turning to the authorities. 
My argument with you however is not your law-abiding stance. It's simply that you posted as if you were an authority on the DWAL, which you clearly are not. You may not have meant to, but that's how it came across when reading your posts, and I know I'm not the only person who thinks that. A license doesn't make a responsible keeper as you seem to think. In reality, a responsible keeper makes a candidate for a license holder. Someone who doesn't hold a license is probably not anti-establishment. Whether right or wrong, there's most likely a valid reason. Without knowing the history you can't just assume that the keeper is a reckless criminal. And as for the public being at any more risk, they aren't. The keeper won't want to be bitten so the snake will almost certainly be very secure, keeping the public safe as a result.


----------



## rum&coke

terciopelo_dave said:


> My argument with you however is not your law-abiding stance. It's simply that you posted as if you were an authority on the DWAL, which you clearly are not. You may not have meant to, but that's how it came across when reading your posts, and I know I'm not the only person who thinks that. A license doesn't make a responsible keeper as you seem to think. In reality, a responsible keeper makes a candidate for a license holder. Someone who doesn't hold a license is probably not anti-establishment. Whether right or wrong, there's most likely a valid reason. Without knowing the history you can't just assume that the keeper is a reckless criminal. And as for the public being at any more risk, they aren't. The keeper won't want to be bitten so the snake will almost certainly be very secure, keeping the public safe as a result.


Im at a loss as to how I came accross as an authority on DWAL as I dont keep any or have ever posted on this part of the forum.
You may have missunderstood me by making assumptions about me and what I know or dont know, maybe you and the few others are looking at the whole thing a bit one sided.
I dont think holding a DWAL alone makes a person a responsibal keeper, I think that wanting to own a animal on the list and wanting to do it right and legal is more responsibal than just doing it without a DWAL, Have you ever wondered why there is a need for a DWAL from a non-keepers point of view? Its about public order and to make the public feel safe. Look at it this way, If the person next door had a tiger in his back yard and I went to ask him about it and he told me he was a good keeper been working with them for years and everything was safe and legal and he had a DWAL, I would think ok then good for him he knows what he is doing and its all legal, now think how it would change my perspective if he said all that but did not have the DWAL, I would be rightly concerned (also I know keeping tigers and snakes are different its just an example).
The DWAL is also about making the public feel safe not just about what the officials know about animals or about how deadly or not the animals are.
I cant see how there could be a valid reason to own animals on the DWA list without a licence, Its not like you are forced into keeping them its a clear choice.Also as far as the animal getting put down if you report that keeper if you dont then it may well end up with all his animals getting put down when the s**t hits the fan like it will sooner or later.


----------



## slippery42

rum&coke said:


> The DWAL is also about making the public feel safe not just about what the officials know about animals or about how deadly or not the animals are.
> .


Rubbish!

99% of the public wouldnt have a clue about the DWA Act!

It is disorganised and poorly conceived. Many Local Authoritys have used it as a tax collecting service.

As I said in my earlier post people who have no idea and should stick to something they know about!


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

rum&coke said:


> ...DWAL is also about making the public feel safe....


Sorry to be your critic again but in my opinion the best way to assist the general public to feel safe is through education and accurate knowledge.

The problem today is there are so many "experts" spawning half truths, lies and myths that the general public (such as yourself) are clueless to the extent that it becomes dangerous. These imagery 'truths' are then used against us the keepers by the law makers who side with the one sided public opinion.

rum&coke never confuse the right thing and the law


----------



## Jczreptiles

slippery42 said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> 99% of the public wouldnt have a clue about the DWA Act!
> 
> It is disorganised and poorly conceived. Many Local Authoritys have used it as a tax collecting service.
> 
> As I said in my earlier post people who have no idea and should stick to something they know about!


 I heard something about the way the DWAL is run been changed this year do you know the details of it?


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Jczreptiles said:


> I heard something about the way the DWAL is run been changed this year do you know the details of it?


A wicked; argument can turn desire into policy! LoL:2thumb:


----------



## rum&coke

slippery42 said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> 99% of the public wouldnt have a clue about the DWA Act!
> 
> It is disorganised and poorly conceived. Many Local Authoritys have used it as a tax collecting service.
> 
> As I said in my earlier post people who have no idea and should stick to something they know about!


I think your opinion is clouded by your eletist attitude, If you only want the opinion of people who keep DWA why talk on a public forum why not lock the DWA sub forum and only talk to each other



Snakes Incorporated said:


> Sorry to be your critic again but in my opinion the best way to assist the general public to feel safe is through education and accurate knowledge.
> 
> The problem today is there are so many "experts" spawning half truths, lies and myths that the general public (such as yourself) are clueless to the extent that it becomes dangerous. These imagery 'truths' are then used against us the keepers by the law makers who side with the one sided public opinion.
> 
> rum&coke never confuse the right thing and the law


I dont my opinion is not so black and white, I take your point the DWAL and the way its organised is not without fault and all the things you say about it, I will take your word for it as you have one and I dont.
I dont think any law is 100% without fault.
I dont think a driving licence makes a good driver but I do feel safer knowing there is a licence in place even with its faults.
I dont clame to be an expert just a person with an oppinion sorry if thats wrong in your eyes, Anyway I will leave this thread and part of the forum now as whats the point nobodys input matters to you unless they keep DWA


----------



## Eyelashviper

The majority of the general public know absolutley nothing about the DWA act.

If you were to ask them concerning owning a cobra, lion, black widow etc, their answer would be, it's illegal-end of.

Alot of people do not know what can be kept, and what is kept, with the belief that such animals can only be kepted in zoo's.


----------



## kettykev

It's not just the public and the DWA issue, some RFUK members are sadly lacking in knowledge saying things like "Oh, I didn't know we had lizards in this country" and another member with 4500 posts saying "there are no snakes in Scotland" with another member replying "That's right, they can't survive the cold up there"


----------



## paulrimmer69

wildlifewarrior said:


> Ok normally i wouldnt rise to a troll...but what the hell...am bored
> 
> 
> 
> Its called CACK ....not crack...unless you shove drugs up your bum..however i would imagine that exit is reserved for your lover: victory:
> 
> 
> Really? seriously you want to down this road? ....ok thats fine but dont say i didnt warn you dude....
> 
> 
> 
> why venomous and not non venomous...what about rear fanged? do they live half and half then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whats a jolk?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats going to be awkward considering i am already in the process of writing 2 books on herpetculture
> 
> 
> trust me...i dont need your help to get banned.
> 
> 
> wee mouth? who wees in there mouth?
> 
> 
> 
> are you serious? lol....i grew up in france with asp vipers as the hurdles we had to jump over on sports day at school. i grew up in a zoo...my cousin has a pretty good sized hot collection in france...oh yea and i also have a PSL...so go figure
> 
> 
> 
> whats a JOLK...is it like a jolk but with more shouting?
> 
> 
> 
> Just looked it up and it says "a person with many mental difficulties from being repeatedly dropped on there head as a child"
> 
> 
> Ok firstly i dont agree with violence at all...secondly if your "ARD" then why do you need a weapon....and finally...are you really "starting" on a rugby player of 12 years? it wont end well for you mate: victory:


that has to be the best post iv read on here, wlw for pm lol!


----------



## paulrimmer69

pythondave82 said:


> I think all venomous keepers are bonkers!


especially those who keep mambas! :lol2:


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

paulrimmer69 said:


> especially those who keep mambas! :lol2:


I personalty do not keep mambas out of personal choice but have worked with them. I recently had to orally medicate a young green mamba single handed at times due to an absence of volunteers. An interesting species that should never be underestimated. 
I believe that the forest cobra can be just as "pleasant" to be around as any mamba.:gasp:


----------



## slippery42

rum&coke said:


> I think your opinion is clouded by your eletist attitude, If you only want the opinion of people who keep DWA why talk on a public forum why not lock the DWA sub forum and only talk to each other



A forum such as this as far as I'm concerned is to offer advice, guidance and to allow those who do not get the opportunity see the venomous snakes that those of us who have studied, cared for are passionate about.

If that means I am an elitist with an attitude then fair comment. 

I'm actively involved in conservation and encouraging Joe public to take an interest in all herpetofauna.........whats your excuse?


----------



## rum&coke

slippery42 said:


> A forum such as this as far as I'm concerned is to offer advice, guidance and to allow those who do not get the opportunity see the venomous snakes that those of us who have studied, cared for are passionate about.
> 
> If that means I am an elitist with an attitude then fair comment.
> 
> I'm actively involved in conservation and encouraging Joe public to take an interest in all herpetofauna.........whats your excuse?


I'm just a reptile keeper on a forum talking to other reptile keepers nothing more nothing less, I have said what I wanted to about keeping without a licence, My point of view in your eyes is rubbish and other things I have said have been exagerated to make me look bad, I never said I was an expert on DWA and I never gave advice about how to keep a animal on the list, I have not been made to feel welcome to talk to you guys on hear, Im sorry that you have so many issues with the DWAL but hey guess what you will find yourselfs on your own with fighting it if you keep alienating other rep keepers from your exclusive club and we are the only members of the public you would have a chance of being sympathetic to your issues.
Anyway I do think its best for me to leave this thread and the DWA sub forum as I didnt come hear to fall out with people.
This really is my last word on the thread so feel free to have a last crack and get the last word in ,Its not a point scoring thing.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Snakes Incorporated said:


> I believe that the forest cobra can be just as "pleasant" to be around as any mamba.:gasp:


I'll second that! Of all the snakes I've kept it was a big female forest cobra that gave me the most trouble. I'm yet to meet one that doesn't want me dead!


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

terciopelo_dave said:


> ... big female forest cobra...


Ive got a medium size female that I use in training and awareness demonstrations. I have to change underwear often. LoL:blush:


----------



## stuartdouglas

rum&coke said:


> thats ok then I'm sure they will have all the time in the world to do all that in the few mins you have to live after a bite and you will be fully concious and coherant after the bite to explaine what has tagged you, and when you are fully treated you then would be happy to pay a fine and lose all your animals when the police come calling.


I'm going to refer you to one of your earlier posts. You are quite right that this shouldn't be a closed forum, but when you come on making statements such as that highlighted above, then surely you can understand why the experienced people on here get, well, a little frustrated. Especially as you've been quite, er....forceful and direct in your approach to some of the replies.

You yourself have elevated DWA keeping to an elitist status by your statement of keepers wanting to "be up there with the big boys"

Opinions are great, but lunless you can base them upon real experience or practical knowledge, they are just words with no substance. I wouldn't presume to pass an opinion on Royals, geckos etc other than to say, "nice snake/lizards" when a picture is posted. 
Perhaps you can understand why some of the keepers on here have been a little short with you. They are all speaking from experience with they type of animals concerned.
You're entitled to have an opinion on the rights & wrongs of what the OP said, but when you start with statements like I've highlighted, then you lose all credibility.........


----------



## terciopelo_dave

stuartdouglas said:


> I'm going to refer you to one of your earlier posts. You are quite right that this shouldn't be a closed forum, but when you come on making statements such as that highlighted above, then surely you can understand why the experienced people on here get, well, a little frustrated. Especially as you've been quite, er....forceful and direct in your approach to some of the replies.
> 
> You yourself have elevated DWA keeping to an elitist status by your statement of keepers wanting to "be up there with the big boys"
> 
> Opinions are great, but lunless you can base them upon real experience or practical knowledge, they are just words with no substance. I wouldn't presume to pass an opinion on Royals, geckos etc other than to say, "nice snake/lizards" when a picture is posted.
> Perhaps you can understand why some of the keepers on here have been a little short with you. They are all speaking from experience with they type of animals concerned.
> You're entitled to have an opinion on the rights & wrongs of what the OP said, but when you start with statements like I've highlighted, then you lose all credibility.........


Summed up perfectly mate. Well said.


----------



## SiUK

stuartdouglas said:


> I'm going to refer you to one of your earlier posts. You are quite right that this shouldn't be a closed forum, but when you come on making statements such as that highlighted above, then surely you can understand why the experienced people on here get, well, a little frustrated. Especially as you've been quite, er....forceful and direct in your approach to some of the replies.


I think youll find you need to do some research Stu, I only found out the other day but VL told me that within seconds of a bite, your bitten limb spontaneously combusts and within minutes your insides have disolved and all thats left is your skin, which is very much like a deflated ballon. This amazed me because I didnt realise it happened like this but hey who am I to argue with experts.....:gasp:


----------



## terciopelo_dave

SiUK said:


> I think youll find you need to do some research Stu, I only found out the other day but VL told me that within seconds of a bite, your bitten limb spontaneously combusts and within minutes your insides have disolved and all thats left is your skin, which is very much like a deflated ballon. This amazed me because I didnt realise it happened like this but hey who am I to argue with experts.....:gasp:


I've seen it happen Si. One of the rattlesnakes that VL mentioned, you know the ones that live wild in Kent? Well it bit my friend and before he could even say a word he became a pile of ooze.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

SiUK said:


> ...within seconds of a bite, your bitten limb spontaneously combusts ... like a deflated ballon. ...


O.K that’s it I'm officially disillusioned and freaked out. I immediately going to rid myself of all my animals and forgive my mother in-law. 
Scary business this :gasp:


----------



## SiUK

terciopelo_dave said:


> I've seen it happen Si. One of the rattlesnakes that VL mentioned, you know the ones that live wild in Kent? Well it bit my friend and before he could even say a word he became a pile of ooze.


see its true, also I have heard terrible things about the population of wild King cobras living in a tower block in Birmingham, particularly nasty venom so I have been told, by a proffesser I know.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

You think that is scary. I remember a black mamba that bit and held onto its own tail. 
This so it could roll down the hill and attack us.
Killed my two best mates but I was lucky. Dang was that a day I’d like to forget.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

SiUK said:


> see its true, also I have heard terrible things about the population of wild King cobras living in a tower block in Birmingham, particularly nasty venom so I have been told, by a proffesser I know.


Yeah, my "good friend in America" told me about that. :2thumb:


----------



## SiUK

Snakes Incorporated said:


> You think that is scary. I remember a black mamba that bit and held onto its own tail.
> This so it could roll down the hill and attack us.
> Killed my two best mates but I was lucky. Dang was that a day I’d like to forget.


these are the every day mishaps that happen, that you just would never know about were it not for folk like us telling our stories.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Snakes Incorporated said:


> You think that is scary. I remember a black mamba that bit and held onto its own tail.
> This so it could roll down the hill and attack us.
> Killed my two best mates but I was lucky. Dang was that a day I’d like to forget.


We should form a support group. Sounds like we need each other in these desperate times. If only VL wasn't banned. He could help us get through this.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

terciopelo_dave said:


> We should form a support group. ...


Agreed lets start a new thread. We need some suggestions on what we can call it so we can comfort each other with those true snake stories we have either heard around the camp fire or experiences first hand.


----------



## stuartdouglas

You are just a bunch of p*ss taking b*st*rds!!!!.........:2thumb:


----------



## terciopelo_dave

stuartdouglas said:


> You are just a bunch of p*ss taking b*st*rds!!!!.........:2thumb:


Who, me? Never. :whistling2:


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Snakes Incorporated said:


> Agreed lets start a new thread. We need some suggestions on what we can call it so we can comfort each other with those true snake stories we have either heard around the camp fire or experiences first hand.


We could call it the VLSIT society. "Viper Lover Said It's True".


----------



## jasper1

leecb0 said:


> I thought this forum includes all venomous, not just DWA? Out of the 30+ snakes I keep, only half a dozen are non-venomous, the others are all Opisthoglyph. *You are indeed correct this FORUM is for all reptiles but THIS is the DWAL section, Which is where DWAL animals are discussed*


Sorry, wrong wording on my behalf; should've said sub-forum maybe? This is what I was referring to though:

"*DWA Species*_ (9 Viewing) _
_Help and general chat for *all* *venomous* & DWA species."_

If I read that correctly, it includes opisthoglyph. Anyway, I was discussing DWAL animals; as I was discussing the OP's question. 


leecb0 said:


> And in the past I have kept many _Vipera lebetina_ & _Malpolon monspessulanus. _No DWAL needed as I lived in Cyprus. I was also mentored by one of the Island's main herp keepers. Probably easier to list what he didn't have than what he did lol *so you live in Ireland and have a limited Knowledge of the DWAL in the UK???*


Yes I live in Ireland, but only since June '09. I'm English and know fully of what is involved in obtaining a DWAL as I have toyed about going down this route a few times. However, because my job takes me travelling it's not possible for the moment. So, only limited in that I haven't gone through with the application; but I do understand what is involved.


leecb0 said:


> The point i was making that there had only been 4 or so people who had commented on the thread that were actual legal DWAL holders, and it seemed that a few were beating down what was being said by them, by those who from my observation have no clue what they are talking about. Also everyone has a right to there opinion and i totaly defend that right but just because your stance is different to ours does not mean they are right and also just because we have DWAL's does not mean we are rightious.


I was actually agreeing to the guys with DWAL. If the guy in question (or snake) exists, then he sound's a complete tool. Doesn't mean I would report him though. However, I would try to get him to give it up, etc. 

However, if it was just rumours and it turned out he did know what he was doing, then fair play. There may be other circumstances as to why he did not have the DWAL.


leecb0 said:


> getting back to the OP's question
> The guy seems to have no clue to what he is doing or what he is keeping, as i said if this is the case perhaps the OP should get the guy to give it up to some one who knows what he is doing. simple as that how anyone can think this is the wrong course of action then i give up:bash:
> If he or anybody else gets bitten this could have a detrimental effect on not just DWAL holders but the hobby as a whole all you need is one animal rights numpty to get wind then you have allsorts of problems. remember they used to say they could never ban Fox hunting


I agree...


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

terciopelo_dave said:


> ..."Viper Lover Said It's True".


:no1::lol2:


----------



## leecb0

i had a email off VL saying that a close American friends brothers dads cousin twice removed said if you are bitten rub a doc leaf on a rattle snake bite and you will be fine. he also said he is missing us but is forming an alliance with Geraint "the snake man" Hopkins cos hes a proper expert hes been out doing some field work....


----------



## Ssthisto

My brother says the best treatment for rattlesnake bites is to pee on it. The rattlesnake, not the bite*. But that's because there aren't any dock leaves where rattlesnakes are, unless you're talking about the population that lives down the road behind the corner shop. They're always hanging around back there trying to get me to buy them beer to soak their mice in.









* It might actually be the best way to get a rattlesnake to bite you, rather than the best cure for it; my brother didn't hang around long enough to find out.


----------



## Snakes Incorporated

Ssthisto said:


> ... there trying to get me to buy them beer to soak their mice in. ...


Yeah one can always take a rattler out the bush but cant get the bush out of a rattle.
What the mice think about this soaking thing?


----------



## Reptilerescueden

SW-morelia said:


> I'm no DWA expert like some who have made an answer on this thread:whistling2:
> So lets just look at the facts as we have them...
> The owner thought it was a rat snake...
> The owner thought milking it would make it safe.....
> These two statements make the answer to the original question a no-brainer..
> And the answer.... If the owner gets bit it's no-one else's problem....
> So what if the owner gets bit and goes down without getting the snake fully secured.... The emergency services break into his house not realizing why he is on the floor.... Now we have the potential for more victims.....
> It may be fine in S.Africa as everyone is aware about venomous snakes, over here it would be the last thing on anyones mind.... Is that a fair scenario to place people in?


We was told (by Chief Firefighter who we was working with at the time) approx. 5 years ago that the councils who issue the DWA's do not actually inform the emergency service of whom or what a person may keep, this might not apply to all councils, but did at the time and probably still does with Greater Manchester. So despite your scenario that you have given, what if there was a fire at a property where venomous snakes where kept? The worst scenrio would be the enclosure break with the heat etc and the snakes escape thus leaving everyone in possible danger. My point here is even if a person did hold a DWA the council still lets others down by their lack of knowledge and a poor risk assessment of the whole thing.
I agree that they should have a standard fee so people wouldn't feel they should go underground and feel ripped off. But by the same token authories should reassess themselves and put in place a clause where all emergency services have access to such data. But of course this is all fantasy as it would all cost too much to put in place like everything else. :whistling2:


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## leecb0

Reptilerescueden said:


> We was told (by Chief Firefighter who we was working with at the time) approx. 5 years ago that the councils who issue the DWA's do not actually inform the emergency service of whom or what a person may keep, this might not apply to all councils, but did at the time and probably still does with Greater Manchester. So despite your scenario that you have given, what if there was a fire at a property where venomous snakes where kept? The worst scenrio would be the enclosure break with the heat etc and the snakes escape thus leaving everyone in possible danger. My point here is even if a person did hold a DWA the council still lets others down by their lack of knowledge and a poor risk assessment of the whole thing.
> I agree that they should have a standard fee so people wouldn't feel they should go underground and feel ripped off. But by the same token authories should reassess themselves and put in place a clause where all emergency services have access to such data. But of course this is all fantasy as it would all cost too much to put in place like everything else. :whistling2:


Hence why as a DWAL holder we have big signs on the door informing ANYONE who "breaks in" whats inside the room/building holding the venomous snakes. Also some do inform them but the problem is by informing the emrgancy services they are breaking the DATA protection act.


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## Snakes Incorporated

First get a Herp. representative in council so to educate those that want to make legislation. This must not be a representative from a governmentally financed conservation department but a creditable private venomous keeper.

Public participation involving the specific group being debated so those that make the laws understand its reasons and impact. The concerned, involved and affected can be brought up to speed with accurate knowledge rather than generally accepted 'true' myths.


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## Reptilerescueden

leecb0 said:


> Hence why as a DWAL holder we have big signs on the door informing ANYONE who "breaks in" whats inside the room/building holding the venomous snakes. Also some do inform them but the problem is by informing the emrgancy services they are breaking the DATA protection act.


Signs on the door may not been seen do to smoke etc but odd isn't it... the whole thing! Just democratic nonsence most of it.


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## slippery42

Reptilerescueden said:


> We was told (by Chief Firefighter who we was working with at the time) approx. 5 years ago that the councils who issue the DWA's do not actually inform the emergency service of whom or what a person may keep, this might not apply to all councils, but did at the time and probably still does with Greater Manchester. So despite your scenario that you have given, what if there was a fire at a property where venomous snakes where kept? The worst scenrio would be the enclosure break with the heat etc and the snakes escape thus leaving everyone in possible danger. My point here is even if a person did hold a DWA the council still lets others down by their lack of knowledge and a poor risk assessment of the whole thing.
> I agree that they should have a standard fee so people wouldn't feel they should go underground and feel ripped off. But by the same token authories should reassess themselves and put in place a clause where all emergency services have access to such data. But of course this is all fantasy as it would all cost too much to put in place like everything else. :whistling2:


My local fire services and Police know about my DWA stuff as the issuing council inform them!

Even had a fire crew turn up one night to ask me a load of questions, all surreal!


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## bobby

I wouldn't alert the authorities normally but in this case I would. If he knew his stuff fair enough but he sounds like a bell end.....


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## bobby

I assume that if you are keeping illegally then you would be in big trouble if you got bitten! (from a medical point of view)


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## Snakes Incorporated

O crap here come the Scots. LoL


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## bobby

Snakes Incorporated said:


> O crap here come the Scots. LoL


:blush:

Do we have a rep in here? :lol2:


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## Snakes Incorporated

I'm a MacLeod in South Africa so I understand your predicament mate.


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## Meko

leecb0 said:


> . Also some do inform them but the problem is by informing the emrgancy services they are breaking the DATA protection act.


is it? what pets somebody keeps isn't personal data. 
A DWA license issued to ******* and they keep 2 rattlesnakes and an aligator is not personal information. None of that information gives any personal data on the owner / occupants of *******


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## stuartdouglas

bobby said:


> I assume that if you are keeping illegally then you would be in big trouble if you got bitten! (from a medical point of view)


Why? There's such a thing as patient confidentiality..................


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## bobby

stuartdouglas said:


> Why? There's such a thing as patient confidentiality..................





bobby said:


> I assume that if you are keeping illegally then you would be in big trouble if you got bitten! (*from a medical point of view*)


:whistling2:


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## Snakes Incorporated

bobby said:


> I assume that if you are keeping illegally then you would be in big trouble if you got bitten! (from a medical point of view)


Any foreign / exotic snake bite will cause a medical nightmare. 
Basically the patients has very little help or assistance


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## leecb0

Meko said:


> is it? what pets somebody keeps isn't personal data.
> A DWA license issued to ******* and they keep 2 rattlesnakes and an aligator is not personal information. None of that information gives any personal data on the owner / occupants of *******


 
Dont understand what you are on about mate. 
what would be the point in the council saying to the fire brigade
"Hay theres a guy in your area that has got venomous snakes, not telling you who or where though"

the council are not allowed to reveal names or addresses of DWAL holders as this is a private licence they can say that they have issued one and what for if ask under the freedom af information act, but who and where are protected under the Data protection act.

As for informing local services the last time i held a DWAL i had the fire chief bloke come round to my door and asked where i kept them , i asked if he wanted to have a look he said " NO YOUR ALLRIGHT MATE" and left. i did expect a visit this time but not had one


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## wildlifewarrior

This threads like DWAL version of loose women


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## xxstaggyxx

wildlifewarrior said:


> This threads like DWAL version of loose women


never knew you were a fan of loose women


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## stuartdouglas

bobby said:


> :whistling2:


What's that about? If you've got something to say, then say it...............


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## wildlifewarrior

xxstaggyxx said:


> never knew you were a fan of loose women


old ladies drive me wild...celulite is sexy:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble:



stuartdouglas said:


> What's that about? If you've got something to say, then say it...............


i think he ment that if you got tagged then you would be in trouble...medically ..as in youve just been bitten by a frong fanged snake....however i am unsure how you would be in LESS trouble medically if you had a DWAL.

venom is still venom..regardless of what your piece of paper says on it


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## xxstaggyxx

I do have a question do you DWAL holders think the DWAL is worth the paper its wrritten on or dose it just come down to you wanting to further your hobby further and just one of those red tape thing's you had to get past to progress further


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## leecb0

wildlifewarrior said:


> This threads like DWAL version of loose women


 TART:whistling2:
Zoe Tyler or Jane McDonald?????
would ya????


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## terciopelo_dave

bobby said:


> I assume that if you are keeping illegally then you would be in big trouble if you got bitten! (from a medical point of view)


I suspect what you meant was if you keep illegally and get bitten you'd be in big trouble from a LEGAL point of view.
You'd be in big trouble from a medical point of view whether the snake was legally owned or not.
If, on the other hand, you meant that if you aren't licensed and you get bitten then you can't get medical treatment, that's wrong. The NHS has a duty of care to all patients. You can't be refused treatment. It's only afterwards that you could face legal repurcussions.
As far as I'm aware though, doctors only have to inform the police of shootings, stabbings, or suspected child abuse, so unless you called a 999 ambulance you may not have police involved. If you ring 999 I believe the details are made available to the police at the time of the call to see if an officer needs to attend the scene.


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## stuartdouglas

If you're working around venomous snakes, then you should not do it alone. If you are sh*t out of luck and get a big bite from an elapid near or in a vein, you may not have enough time to wait for an ambulance. You should ensure that someone else is about to get you to a hospital ASAP


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## terciopelo_dave

stuartdouglas said:


> If you're working around venomous snakes, then you should not do it alone. If you are sh*t out of luck and get a big bite from an elapid near or in a vein, you may not have enough time to wait for an ambulance. You should ensure that someone else is about to get you to a hospital ASAP


Agreed. If you take big hit from something that packs a cardiotoxin or can otherwise cause a sudden, massive drop in blood pressure, then vision is one of the first things to go. Bothrops are famous for causing this effect. I don't fancy going blind as I'm securing a snake, then stumbling into things trying to unlock the front door for the ambulance crew.


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## bobby

Sorry people!

I assumed that if you held a DWAL for vipers and things then the relevant anti venoms would be made available. Guess that's not how it works?


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## terciopelo_dave

bobby said:


> Sorry people!
> 
> I assumed that if you held a DWAL for vipers and things then the relevant anti venoms would be made available. Guess that's not how it works?


Nah mate. The antivenom is available anyway. Like I said, the NHS have a duty of care.


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## bobby

terciopelo_dave said:


> Nah mate. The antivenom is available anyway. Like I said, the NHS have a duty of care.


So will my local hospital have fridges full of the stuff?
I'm guessing their are loads of different types?


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## terciopelo_dave

bobby said:


> So will my local hospital have fridges full of the stuff?
> I'm guessing their are loads of different types?


Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine is the central antivenom bank. It's distributed from there to where it's needed. I believe there are other places within the UK that hold stocks, but Liverpool is the main one.
And yes there are numerous varieties, prepared against individual species (monovalent antivenoms) or against several species (polyvalent antivenoms).


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## bobby

terciopelo_dave said:


> Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine is the central antivenom bank. It's distributed from there to where it's needed. I believe there are other places within the UK that hold stocks, but Liverpool is the main one.
> And yes there are numerous varieties, prepared against individual species (monovalent antivenoms) or against several species (polyvalent antivenoms).


So what if you get bitten up here?


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## terciopelo_dave

bobby said:


> So what if you get bitten up here?


Could be wrong, but I think there are stocks held in Glasgow Uni.


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## bobby

terciopelo_dave said:


> Could be wrong, but I think there are stocks held in Glasgow Uni.


The thought of being bitten is horrible, you think you'd be likely to die?
I thought that because no one had been killed in Britain the systems in place must have been very good, sounds like it might just be luck?


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## terciopelo_dave

bobby said:


> The thought of being bitten is horrible, you think you'd be likely to die?
> I thought that because no one had been killed in Britain the systems in place must have been very good, sounds like it might just be luck?


The systems in place in the UK are phenomenal. We are in a very priviledged position. 
You are unlikely to die because the system works. There is always an element of luck involved if you get bitten, but the odds can be stacked in your favour by having highly skilled people involved in every aspect of snakebite management.
Nobody has died of exotic snakebite in this country since 1897. Bites are incredibly rare over here, but when they occur they are well managed. It's certainly nothing you should worry about.


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## stuartdouglas

There aren't that many snakes who are guaranteed 100% mortality if untreated. In most cases, the victim has quite some time before life threatening symptoms become evident. In some cases, _Echis_ sp, for example, the victim can die days after the bite from kidney failure. That said, bite protocols should cover immediate management of the bite prior to transport to hospital.


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## chondro13

stuartdouglas said:


> There aren't that many snakes who are guaranteed 100% mortality if untreated. In most cases, the victim has quite some time before life threatening symptoms become evident. In some cases, _Echis_ sp, for example, the victim can die days after the bite from kidney failure. That said, bite protocols should cover immediate management of the bite prior to transport to hospital.


Aww but their SO cute  dont you fancy a cuddle of yours m'dear?


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## Snakes Incorporated

Any central nerve shut down venom such as from a Mamba, Cape Cobra and such can be treated symptomatically without anti-venom. 
The cytotoxic venom from a viper/rattle or puff Adder will cause necrosis so anti-venom will stop the damage. There is a possibility of death with these animals but I think the loss of a limb could solve that problem if need be.:gasp:


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## bobby

Are you likely to need hospital treatment for a the bite of a native adder?


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## Snakes Incorporated

bobby said:


> Are you likely to need hospital treatment for a the bite of a native adder?


Not really but I would suggest it. Elderly people and children are at serious risk.


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## leecb0

bobby said:


> Are you likely to need hospital treatment for a the bite of a native adder?


 Eventhough some people say that the venom is very mild i would still go to the hospital to be on the safe side. Normally most people would not need the hospital for a bee sting but people have died after suffering an
Anaphylactic Shock, which could possibly happen with an adder bite, everybody is different


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## SiUK

bobby said:


> Are you likely to need hospital treatment for a the bite of a native adder?


Graeme (Slippery) was very ill from a V.berus bite, i'm sure he wont mind telling you about it if you ask.


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## bobby

SiUK said:


> Graeme (Slippery) was very ill from a V.berus bite, i'm sure he wont mind telling you about it if you ask.


I have always admired them but in reality I don't think I will ever be in a position to have one


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## DavidR

> Are you likely to need hospital treatment for a the bite of a native adder?


_V. berus_ are perfectly capable of delivering life threatening envenomations (and do so regularly across the range) and the venom is by no means mild. Bite symptoms are highly variable but hospitalisation after any bite (even if you have not experienced any effects yet) is the best cause of action. 



> Bites are incredibly rare over here, but when they occur they are well managed. It's certainly nothing you should worry about.


I'm not sure 'incredibly rare' is entirely justified, although no stats are released about exotic venomous bites, I would guess that the numbers are probably higher than most would expect!



> The thought of being bitten is horrible, you think you'd be likely to die?


Even without antivenom the majority of snake bites do not result in death (a lot of bites do not even result in envenomation), this is how quack treatments such as snake stones gain popularity. _Echis carinatus sochureki_ is considered one of the most dangerous snakes in the world, and the fatality rate is ~20% of envenomations. Obviously, even survivors can suffer long term disability (e.g. disfigurement, loss of kidney function etc).

David.


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## SWMorelia

I did read that V.berus are higher on the LD50 than WDB..... Luckily they are smaller and the yield is a lot less... So underestimating them is a very unwise move....


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## bobby

Look at that though :flrt:


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## leecb0

DavidR i believe LTSM are soon to release facts and figures on "exotic snake bites" in the uk soon that they have compiled.
But PDR would be the best person to ask


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## DeadLee

ipreferaflan said:


> My girlfriend lives in Derby. If she gets bitten I'm coming to you! haha


Fancy seeing you in this section of the forums!!


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## HABU

i always carry an ace bandage with me when i camp and hike... wrap the limb and skee-daddle down to a road... bug outta there...


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