# Final post on RFUK



## Chris Newman

Dear all,

It is with some regret that this is my final post on this forum, as many of you will be aware our hobby is under significant threat and RFUK could, if it so chose, be a useful mechanism to disseminate information and rally support - unfortunately RFUK has chosen to be obstructive rather than construction. As a result I shall no longer use the forum, I see like point in supporting a forum that does not support our hobby! I can be contacted directly [email [email protected]] or on one of the more responsible forums such as Captive Bred Reptile Forum, should anyone need any assistance. 

Regards,
Chris Newman
Federation of British Herpetologists

[I would now be grateful if a moderator would remove my login name - thank you]


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## Sid crock

Sad day for RFUK!


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## penfold

Said it a million times this forum has gone to pot ever noticed all the top people in this hobby don't bother much anymore


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## mcluskyisms

penfold said:


> Said it a million times this forum has gone to pot ever noticed all the top people in this hobby don't bother much anymore


Aye, RobC never came back after his _Theraphosa blondi_ *cough* _stirmi_ operation.


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## Pete Q

Chris Newman said:


> Dear all,
> 
> It is with some regret that this is my final post on this forum, as many of you will be aware our hobby is under significant threat and RFUK could, if it so chose, be a useful mechanism to disseminate information and rally support - unfortunately RFUK has chosen to be obstructive rather than construction. As a result I shall no longer use the forum, I see like point in supporting a forum that does not support our hobby! I can be contacted directly [email [email protected]] or on one of the more responsible forums such as Captive Bred Reptile Forum, should anyone need any assistance.
> 
> Regards,
> Chris Newman
> Federation of British Herpetologists
> 
> [I would now be grateful if a moderator would remove my login name - thank you]


Have I missed something ?


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## nick gilchrist

For such an eminent spokesperson im a bit suprised at this short. brief exit..i feel that a better explanation of exactly what scenario has caused this to occur should be put forward. In return the powers that be of RFUK should then have a right to reply and explain what they have or have not done to create this situation.Ultimately..See ya wouldnt wanna be ya and by the way join this forum cos its better! is certainly unprofessional and smacks of sour grapes:whistling2:.


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## Colosseum

Is this to do with hardcore porno?

I just scanned another thread


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## BeckyL

Sorry to see you go but I'm confused, why do you feel that the forum doesn't support the hobby? :?


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## Baldpoodle

mcluskyisms said:


> Aye, RobC never came back after his _Theraphosa blondi_ *cough* _stirmi_ operation.


lol he said top people ibn the hobby not top nobbers.


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## pam b

Sorry to hear this Chris, but alas i believe your right, standards have slipped since T-Bo's day and theirs not many damns given about anything much.
Most of the respected people moved on (or got banned for opinions) a fair while back.


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## Drayvan

Shame you felt you had to leave, guess we wont know the whole story. Maybe the forum leaders got tired of the scaremongering...


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## mrcriss

nick gilchrist said:


> For such an eminent spokesperson im a bit suprised at this short. brief exit..i feel that a better explanation of exactly what scenario has caused this to occur should be put forward. In return the powers that be of RFUK should then have a right to reply and explain what they have or have not done to create this situation.Ultimately..See ya wouldnt wanna be ya and by the way join this forum cos its better! is certainly unprofessional and smacks of sour grapes:whistling2:.


I agree.....

Most normal people with an issue/grudge would just say "sod it", and not use the forum anymore. So why the big stroppy exit? It's a little bit "drama queeny", don't you think?:whistling2:


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## Pete Q

pam b said:


> Sorry to hear this Chris, but alas i believe your right, standards have slipped since T-Bo's day and theirs not many damns given about anything much.
> Most of the respected people moved on (or got banned for opinions) a fair while back.


It seems to me that things are looking up for the animal rights people, I have respect for many people here, but it is also over run with people who would rather fight each other than fight for their hobby.

Over run with people who don't care, have know guts, or voice, other than to sit behind their keyboard and stir up trouble very chance they get.

I'm fast loosing respect for some people here, I had plans to spend much more of my time fighting for our hobby, good plans, having second thoughts now, not just from this thread, but like many of you think I'll just sit back and wait, just hope it will all go away or someone else will step up fight the antis and talk to the politicians for me, come to think of it maybe I'll just not care either way.

Over the next few years I would of reduced my collection and working hours enough to have much more time on my hands, I would be a real pain in the arse for our anti friends, sod it, I'll go and sit by a lake instead.


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## Pete Q

Drayvan said:


> Shame you felt you had to leave, guess we wont know the whole story. Maybe the forum leaders got tired of the scaremongering...


This is the sort of crap I'm on about.


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## pam b

Pete Q said:


> It seems to me that things are looking up for the animal rights people, I have respect for many people here, but it is also over run with people who would rather fight each other than fight for their hobby.
> 
> Over run with people who don't care, have know guts, or voice, other than to sit behind their keyboard and stir up trouble very chance they get.
> 
> I'm fast loosing respect for some people here, I had plans to spend much more of my time fighting for our hobby, good plans, having second thoughts now, not just from this thread, but like many of you think I'll just sit back and wait, just hope it will all go away or someone else will step up fight the antis and talk to the politicians for me, come to think of it maybe I'll just not care either way.
> 
> Over the next few years I would of reduced my collection and working hours enough to have much more time on my hands, I would be a real pain in the arse for our anti friends, sod it, I'll go and sit by a lake instead.


I must admit Pete over all the years i've never seen things get as bad as they are now. Respected people so disheartened, leaving the hobby, this NEW influx (last couple of years) of *so called* *experts*, are these the people who will be leading the way in years to come.
Dear god i hope not!


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## Pete Q

pam b said:


> I must admit Pete over all the years i've never seen things get as bad as they are now. Respected people so disheartened, leaving the hobby, this NEW influx (last couple of years) of *so called* *experts*, are these the people who will be leading the way in years to come.
> Dear god i hope not!


Yes I know what your saying, I have seen some hope, many reptile keepers stepped up and fought back againest Lush and the APA, some really good people caught my eye and I can remember thinking that 3 or 4 of those people could go on to help the hobby in the future, they were very good at getting their point across and could form a new team that could be put together, a pet reptile agency full of reptile educated people.


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## Ian.g

I think I have missed something here also?...this is sad news indeed! if you could maybe PM me full details of what is going on Chris, at least I may understand what is going on, and why you feel you want to leave the forum all together.


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## Pete Q

I had an email from Chris.
I have no issue with people stirring up problems on RFUK, that I expect and is part of life. Unpleasant, but a reality and something that you have to simple live with. What I object to is some of the moderators being thoroughly unhelpful and indeed obstructive. As the largest UK forum for reptile keepers/enthusiasts one would expect RFUK to actually be helpful or perhaps sympathetic towards those who are defending its core interest – people keeping reptiles. Regrettably in my experience that is not the situation, certainly more so in recent months but historically RFUK has been less than proactive.

The issue that triggered my decision to withdraw from posting on RFUK was trivial and really doesn’t warrant airing the moderator concerned know who he is. The reality is I don’t have the time or inclination to deal with petty people, I spend enough of my day having to deal with politicians and bureaucrats and the like to waste time and energy on idiots. It is a shame in many ways as RFUK could have been a force for good, but it is clear that is not a role they have an interest in fulfilling. 

The bottom-line is I really don’t have time to post on forums, which is why I rarely do so. Now I have discontinued involvement with RFUK I will concentrate on making information available either from the FBH website and/or in conjunction with more responsible forums such as Captive Bred.


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## pam b

Pete Q said:


> Yes I know what your saying, I have seen some hope, many reptile keepers stepped up and fought back againest Lush and the APA, some really good people caught my eye and I can remember thinking that 3 or 4 of those people could go on to help the hobby in the future, they were very good at getting their point across and could form a new team that could be put together, a pet reptile agency full of reptile educated people.


You know i had actually forgotten about this, and you are of course right.
That was nicely done.


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## CBR1100XX

Pete Q said:


> I had an email from Chris.
> I have no issue with people stirring up problems on RFUK, that I expect and is part of life. Unpleasant, but a reality and something that you have to simple live with. What I object to is some of the moderators being thoroughly unhelpful and indeed obstructive. As the largest UK forum for reptile keepers/enthusiasts one would expect RFUK to actually be helpful or perhaps sympathetic towards those who are defending its core interest – people keeping reptiles. Regrettably in my experience that is not the situation, certainly more so in recent months but historically RFUK has been less than proactive.
> 
> The issue that triggered my decision to withdraw from posting on RFUK was trivial and really doesn’t warrant airing the moderator concerned know who he is. The reality is I don’t have the time or inclination to deal with petty people, I spend enough of my day having to deal with politicians and bureaucrats and the like to waste time and energy on idiots. It is a shame in many ways as RFUK could have been a force for good, but it is clear that is not a role they have an interest in fulfilling.
> 
> The bottom-line is I really don’t have time to post on forums, which is why I rarely do so. Now I have discontinued involvement with RFUK I will concentrate on making information available either from the FBH website and/or in conjunction with more responsible forums such as Captive Bred.


 
Although I spend less time on forums due to work these days it is a shame when I do login to see someone I respect for the work he does to protect the hobby leave the forum. 

We should be thanking people like Chris not pushing them away.


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## Sid crock

I can't believe fellow keepers have not got a clue how good the animal rights nutters are at working together! Unlike US!


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## Pete Q

CBR1100XX said:


> Although I spend less time on forums due to work these days it is a shame when I do login to see someone I respect for the work he does to protect the hobby leave the forum.
> 
> We should be thanking people like Chris not pushing them away.


Thats 2 mods that are not pleased about this, can it be fixed ?


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## pam b

Pete Q said:


> Thats 2 mods that are not pleased about this, can it be fixed ?


I shouldnt expect so Pete, nothing has ever been fixed at RFUK before, if anybody doesnt ever like it the general concensus always seems to be to *do one* or they *do one for you*.:whistling2:


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## Salazare Slytherin

Pete Q said:


> Thats 2 mods that are not pleased about this, can it be fixed ?


 
Probibly, the problem is when you have a mod badge beside your name your not allowed to have opinions apparantly, maybe whatever has been said has been thought that the mod in question was speaking for the whole forum instead of just his view on something? 

It happens to moderators all the time and things are easily taken out of context.

It would be a shame to see Chris leave the forum though.


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## Guest

All seems a little melodramatic if you ask me...


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## Drayvan

Pete Q said:


> This is the sort of crap I'm on about.


Thanks for noticing me :flrt: I stand by my statement on grounds that having worked for some of the people being alienated by the 'fight' to protect our hobby I can see how much we are losing out by not welcoming them on board and gaining their aid. Like it or not our hobby will always clash with global species conservation, and rather than dig our heels in and act like stubborn children we should be asking what we can do to help the situation. 
'This sort of crap' comment should be aimed at all of the people over the years who have ever turned around with statements along the lines of 'If they try to take my animals i'll put them in hospital' THIS is why people are against our hobby, they see us as aggressive, reclusive thugs for the most part who are only interested in gaining a large 'stamp collection' of rare animals and breeding them in substandard conditions. We need to educate, not fight, these people are ignorant, not monsters trying to take any animal you may want to keep away from you and kill it. As a vague example i show you this :
Companion Animals

Even the most 'aggrssive' and disliked animal rights organisations are NOT against pet keeping. We need to stop being on the offensive and start to actually LEARN about our enemies and see their point of view, only then can we truly create a plan of action to keep our hobby alive. And to be honest, the reason i dont care that you think what i type is 'crap' is because as far as im aware you are no better than what you are complaining about, have you helped? Doesn't sound like it.

But anyways, thats my 2 pence worth. Back on topic, whatever happened i DO hope that Chris comes back, as much as i disagree with a lot of his topics, reasoning and oppinions, he seems the only one on the forum getting up off his backside to help our hobby and i for one looked forward to updates about the situation, seeing as 'the antis' have been less than forthcoming on information about the issue. I argue with Chris merely because i want the arguments placed for the protection of our hobby to be based on fact, and by questioning given opinions this weeds out fact from fiction. Apologies for the long post, i hope the forum does its best to correct whatever situation occurred :2thumb:


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## batcode

*re*

not sure wat has sparked chris off but have feeling but also do understand where hes coming from and dont mean be offensive as so many times see people putting up posts or making comments thu most are meant harmless some can bite us reptile keepers in the backside yes at presnt we are facing difficult times but to be able to make a stance everyone needs work as one instead of how its becoming so many times ive seen threads on people who have issues with others or things like that but if people spent as much time standing up for the rite reasons instaed of the wrong ones maybe we would be in a better state as not only have we got the activists to deal with we have the eu and politicians most who wouldnet have a clue how to bloody hiold a lizard let alone there importance???
as for the activists to many times have i seen things on here that instead protecting the hobby can give them more ammo 

im not having go at any individuals as we have all proberly contributed in some way but instead people wondering or asking why maybe this is the kick in the ass we all need to pull togther and unite to protect are passion IF WE DONT STAND UP TO IT WHO WILL ???


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## Pete Q

Drayvan said:


> Thanks for noticing me :flrt: I stand by my statement on grounds that having worked for some of the people being alienated by the 'fight' to protect our hobby I can see how much we are losing out by not welcoming them on board and gaining their aid. Like it or not our hobby will always clash with global species conservation, and rather than dig our heels in and act like stubborn children we should be asking what we can do to help the situation.
> 
> *I agree with most of this, but even if you feel alienated there is still plenty we can do. Although I'm not going to agree with some of your post at least it's better than the last one which does'nt help the situation. *
> 
> 
> 'This sort of crap' comment should be aimed at all of the people over the years who have ever turned around with statements along the lines of 'If they try to take my animals i'll put them in hospital' THIS is why people are against our hobby, they see us as aggressive, reclusive thugs for the most part who are only interested in gaining a large 'stamp collection' of rare animals and breeding them in substandard conditions. We need to educate, not fight, these people are ignorant, not monsters trying to take any animal you may want to keep away from you and kill it. As a vague example i show you this :
> Companion Animals
> 
> *Depends what people you mean, if your talking about the public then yes, animal rights see us in a different light, we are an easy target, full of cruel jailers who will just do nothing but fight each other.*
> *There are different levels of animal rights, all of them are againest pet ownership, some at the lower end of the scale would just out law breeding, others believe that the animals are better off dead, I have many years experience debating with them, well trying to debate, they will not listen or want to be educated. *
> 
> Even the most 'aggrssive' and disliked animal rights organisations are NOT against pet keeping. We need to stop being on the offensive and start to actually LEARN about our enemies and see their point of view, only then can we truly create a plan of action to keep our hobby alive. And to be honest, the reason i dont care that you think what i type is 'crap' is because as far as im aware you are no better than what you are complaining about, have you helped? Doesn't sound like it.
> 
> *Yes they are, animal rights are all about animals being free, the view of true animal rights members are if you don't believe this you are animal welfare not rights.*
> *I have spent many years already learning about our enemies and helped Chris in the past, we could all do more for sure, I have plans to.*
> *I don't expect everyone to pop down the house of commons, just have a voice, something to say about it will help, well not all the time as I've learn't resently. *
> 
> 
> But anyways, thats my 2 pence worth. Back on topic, whatever happened i DO hope that Chris comes back, as much as i disagree with a lot of his topics, reasoning and oppinions, he seems the only one on the forum getting up off his backside to help our hobby and i for one looked forward to updates about the situation, seeing as 'the antis' have been less than forthcoming on information about the issue. I argue with Chris merely because i want the arguments placed for the protection of our hobby to be based on fact, and by questioning given opinions this weeds out fact from fiction. Apologies for the long post, i hope the forum does its best to correct whatever situation occurred :2thumb:


*Agreed, and sorry, you have more about you than I first thought. : victory:*


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## kato

Pete Q said:


> Thats 2 mods that are not pleased about this, can it be fixed ?


Make that three. I sincerely hope that the situation can be fixed too. But sadly it is out of my hands. 



CBR1100XX said:


> Although I spend less time on forums due to work these days it is a shame when I do login to see someone I respect for the work he does to protect the hobby leave the forum.
> 
> We should be thanking people like Chris not pushing them away.


Totally agree mate. We should all be working together to encourage the known faces to represent our Reptile Community.



pam b said:


> Sorry to hear this Chris, but alas i believe your right, standards have slipped since T-Bo's day and theirs not many damns given about anything much.
> Most of the respected people moved on (or got banned for opinions) a fair while back.


Since T-Bo left it has been difficult in my opinion to keep a constant equilibrium. I would quite happily encourage anyone that has left back as long as they have not left for say threatening a Member of the Moderation Team, Slander of anything RFUK or any Criminal type activity against RFUK.

But at the end of the day RFUK does have Rules and whoever we are we have to abide by them - they are not even the hardest rules to abide by either - common sense will pretty much get you through unscathed. 

Simon.


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## Ian.g

I think I now have the general jist of what is going on/happened....I think that we as a "community" of reptile/pet keepers/hobbyists/breeders do need to work together in the fight against getting our "hobby" taken away from us! I think maybe Chris was a bit rash to leave alltogether...but can understand his frustrations! there is a very real threat to our hobby, and to be honest if we do not stand united and come up with pro-active solutions to help get our point accross then on the whole the animal rights activists will very likely have their way! they have little to no understanding about the hobby, the animals, or anything to do with keeping them...all they think is that we take wild animals and effectively keep them in boxes taking away their "rights"....they do not see the fact that when cared for properly we are giving them a safe and comfortable enviromnment for them to live out long and healthy (and productive in the case of breeding animals) lives, free from disease, predation, starvation and so on...and also the captive breeding of them gives the wild populations the chance to be left alone, and should the need arise even re-releasing programmes could be set up for critically endangered species....the "anti`s" will not be interested in any of this, but surely if this message was gotten accross to the general public, and politicians and so on then we stand a chance of having our beloved hobby supported rather than frowned upon.


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## Drayvan

Pete Q said:


> *Agreed, and sorry, you have more about you than I first thought. : victory:*


Sorry think i posted the wrong link :blush: Pet FAQs which hopefully shows people that organisations who definitely wouldn't be classed as 'welfare' groups also have some acknowledgement that pet keeping will never go away.
We are all different and on a lot of things, we have to agree to disagree, forming divides between us is definitely not helpful if we are to reach our ultimate goal :2thumb: 
Anyways, i hope Chris' departure doesn't put the fight out of fellow forum members, some seem to be giving up before things have begun.


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## Athravan

RFUK is sorry to hear that Chris Newman is leaving. However we would like to make it clear that RFUK has never opposed the FBH or any reptile organisation, that we welcome and support any organisation working for the good of the reptile community and we are quite confused by the severity of the wording and action here.

The rules here are very simple and we do believe that there are not "special people" who are above the rules and in this case a polite reminder of the rules was issued. A polite reminder does not mean RFUK opposes an organisation!

We have asked Chris in the past to contact the admin or moderators if he has any problems, as can be found in previous public threads. We have received no contact. Furthermore, as I was made aware by the moderating team that we had once again had to remove some posts due to the rules, I PMed Chris and made it clear that we have several ways of promoting his threads, such as stickies and announcements - that have been done in the past - and could be done in the future that are 100% within the rules and both better for him, and for us. I have not received a reply. The moderation team have not replied to this sooner because we wanted to give him some time to reply to us.

RFUK is in fact very disappointed that Chris Newman or the FBH no longer want to post here, but we want to emphasise that we really feel we have been more than accomodating and tried very hard to be as supportive as we can, within reason and the boundaries of our rules.

If anyone wishes to promote a cause for the hobby or has an important announcement to make site wide or is at all worried that they may be breaking the rules and wishes to double check to avoid any possible confusion don't hesitate to contact any of the moderating team. There is always a compromise and always a way that the rules and important issues can both be given due respect.

I do want to ask that this thread doesn't turn into a general discussion on RFUK moderation as that would be unfair to Chris and not entirely relevant. If you have any queries/complaints/suggestions/issues about moderation do feel free to PM them to any of the mods.


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## monitor mad

Well this looks like a bonus for the anti's to me!! :bash:


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## Pete Q

Athravan said:


> RFUK is sorry to hear that Chris Newman is leaving. However we would like to make it clear that RFUK has never opposed the FBH or any reptile organisation, that we welcome and support any organisation working for the good of the reptile community and we are quite confused by the severity of the wording and action here.
> 
> The rules here are very simple and we do believe that there are not "special people" who are above the rules and in this case a polite reminder of the rules was issued. A polite reminder does not mean RFUK "opposes" an organisation!
> 
> We have asked Chris in the past to contact the admin or moderators if he has any problems, as can be found in previous public threads. We have received no contact. Furthermore, as I was made aware by the moderating team that we had once again had to remove some posts due to the rules, I PMed Chris and made it clear that we have several ways of promoting his threads, such as stickies and announcements - that have been done in the past - and could be done in the future that are 100% within the rules and both better for him, and for us. I have not received a reply. The moderation team have not replied to this sooner because we wanted to give him some time to reply to us.
> 
> RFUK is in fact very disappointed that Chris Newman or the FBH no longer want to post here, but we want to emphasise that we really feel we have been more than accomodating and tried very hard to be as supportive as we can, within reason and the boundaries of our rules.
> 
> If anyone wishes to promote a cause for the hobby or has an important announcement to make site wide or is at all worried that they may be breaking the rules and wishes to double check to avoid any possible confusion don't hesitate to contact any of the moderating team. There is always a compromise and always a way that the rules and important issues can both be given due respect.
> 
> I do want to ask that this thread doesn't turn into a general discussion on RFUK moderation as that would be unfair to Chris and not entirely relevant. If you have any queries/complaints/suggestions/issues about moderation do feel free to PM them to any of the mods.


I have a problem with your quotes, I'll pm you then.


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## batcode

*re*

i agree with some the points made by athravan but maybe due to how things are getting more guidelines are needed or more stipulations as to be honest half time the antis dont need to do anything as on here people doing it for them ive seen so many posts were people have moaned about others sometimes with names , seen where iits been said about state peoples animals and collections or how animals have died THIS IF ANYTHING GIVES THUS TRYING TO GIVE US A BAD NAME MORE AMMO ALL THEY NEED DO IS ORINT THINGS OUT 
only last year after sept donnie was thread ref kids but it went to far as a parent i was very offended and to point digusted that thread wasnt closed down or somthing said as i mentioned my disabeled tenn son pushed but got a very repusive comment on a well known member who still here to this day but i let it be as wasnt doing any good to the hobby thu was fuming 
even at one donnie show i was mouthed off by a well known no longer on here but still in public limelite or as didnt buy from his store thu went with them which is appaling behavior as this person supposed be trying to save it ???
all saying is if people keep posting threads with issues over other members,breeders etc and keep running them down openly then aint we stabbing ourselfs in the back yes i have issues with some but i keep it to my self certinly wont go doing it publicaly as been in this game for to long to let others spoil it thtas why i dont post much or comment as in this indusrtry theres far to much ,moaning and backstabing when people need stop and work togther for the sake of all as if we dont no good looking at the next generation as be to late even on this thread theres some uncalled for replys 
sory if to long but its not about individuals its about the whole reptile hobby as never has the threats we are facing beenn in more need for us to work as one STOP DOING THE JOB FOR THE ANTIS PLEASE IF NOT FOR URSELFS FOR YOUR REPTILES


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## ex0tics

It indeed a shame he's leaving but it's his choice and as he's clearly set on leaving don't beat yourself up over it.

Nobody should be above the rules.


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## sharpstrain

for heavens sake when children throw their teddy out of the cot leave it on the floor, dont pick it up for them


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## pam b

Pete Q said:


> I have a problem with your quotes, I'll pm you then.


Now remember Pete, not a single damn will be given.


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## Ian.g

pam b said:


> Now remember Pete, not a single damn will be given.


this is where you are wrong.....comments like this do nothing but stir up more arguments!


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## Poxicator

Pete Q said:


> I had an email from Chris.
> As the largest UK forum for reptile keepers/enthusiasts one would expect RFUK to actually be helpful...
> 
> The issue that triggered my decision to withdraw from posting on RFUK was trivial and really doesn’t warrant airing the moderator concerned know who he is.


Whilst I recognise Chris as a very valued and able person and certainly a great person to fight the cause, its seems questionable that something so "trivial" would encourage him to give up on what he describes as the "largest" forum.

Please don't fall at the first fence Chris, you've fought bigger issues than this and it really only requires a bit of co-operation on both sides, within the rules so that nobody can suggest there's a bias being given.


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## colinm

Quite true Pam.

Chris is not some teenage kid posting profanites on the 18+.All of his posts that I have seen have been relating to the hobby.As the face of the F.B.H. he has put his head above the parapet and is open to all kind of criticism which he deals with head on .He doesnt hide behind a pseudonym.

It would seem to me that a greater effoert should have been made from the administrators on here to keep him on here,in order that people can keep uipdated with the latest going ons in the hobby.

But then what would you expect from a forum that has more posts about how much is my lesser bee,hypo ,banana worth or about getting your bits out for the 18+,than about hobby issues?


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## mrcriss

pam b said:


> Now remember Pete, not a single damn will be given.


What a lovely attitude!:whistling2:


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## kato

colinm said:


> Quite true Pam.
> 
> Chris is not some teenage kid posting profanites on the 18+.All of his posts that I have seen have been relating to the hobby.As the face of the F.B.H. he has put his head above the parapet and is open to all kind of criticism which he deals with head on .He doesnt hide behind a pseudonym.
> 
> It would seem to me that a greater effoert should have been made from the administrators on here to keep him on here,in order that people can keep uipdated with the latest going ons in the hobby.
> 
> But then what would you expect from a forum that has more posts about how much is my lesser bee,hypo ,banana worth or about getting your bits out for the 18+,than about hobby issues?


Personally I would expect more mature comments than this. If you don't want to go in Off Topic quite simply do not go there. If you want to stick to the Snake Section stick to it - after all it is freedom of choice.

As for all these negative comments from Users, well why make them unless your trying to stir up a hornets nest? That kind if behaviour is bound to "fuel the anti's" and had the OP not made this thread then quite simply the anti's would not have this fuel.

As a Moderator of a few years now to me Forum life is simple, stick to the rules and the brown stuff won't hit the fan.


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## GRB

colinm said:


> Quite true Pam.
> 
> Chris is not some teenage kid posting profanites on the 18+.All of his posts that I have seen have been relating to the hobby.As the face of the F.B.H. he has put his head above the parapet and is open to all kind of criticism which he deals with head on .He doesnt hide behind a pseudonym.
> 
> It would seem to me that a greater effoert should have been made from the administrators on here to keep him on here,in order that people can keep uipdated with the latest going ons in the hobby.


This makes absolutely no sense to me. Basically, you are suggesting that we let someone outside of the forum dictate what rules he follows _here_ based on who he is? 

The message I got from Chris in the past was that everything he stated was 'of vital importance', and now he's pulled the weak argument that because we didn't let him do what he wanted, that suddenly means we 'no longer support the FBH'. This just reminds me of another instance where because we binned some of his forum wide spam, he stated it was due to us 'wanting to bury our heads in the sand'. Great argument there too - 'believe what I am saying otherwise I'll say your are ignorant and you dont care about the hobby'. 

Seriously people, where is critical thought these days? I takes about 0.2 seconds to see through this sort of move for what it really is.


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## chris25

ive been following this thread with interest..now,i dont know chris,or can even say ive been a follower of his postings...,i do know from what i have seen that he seems to have the hobby at heart.
the one thing i do see tho is this....to the anti's we (the reptile hobbyist)must come across as a bunch of completely dis-organised bunch of argumentitive idiots who faced with growing condemation from various sources for our choice of exotic 'pets' would choose to argue amonst ourselves, if we cannot support each other for the sake of the hobby then what hope do we really have if someday someone seriously looks at restricting what we can keep,own,breed etc etc..

the anti's surely cannot fear any reasonable opposition from us can they really..it seems to me that just now were at the mercy of some european buerocrat that will eventually decide the reptile hobby should be more closely regulated,that will be bad news for all and what will we do...argue and blame the anti's


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## colinm

GRB said:


> The message I got from Chris in the past was that everything he stated was 'of vital importance', and now he's pulled the weak argument that because we didn't let him do what he wanted, that suddenly means we 'no longer support the FBH'. This just reminds me of another instance where because we binned some of his forum wide spam, he stated it was due to us 'wanting to bury our heads in the sand'. Great argument there too - 'believe what I am saying otherwise I'll say your are ignorant and you dont care about the hobby'.
> 
> Seriously people, where is critical thought these days? I takes about 0.2 seconds to see through this sort of move for what it really is.


This is a forum for debate.Why have the moderators got all defensive?

A forum has absolutely no clout with regards to hobby issues, it is just a sounding board.Whereas organisations like the F.B.H.does.Why dont you work with him?


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## Salazare Slytherin

colinm said:


> This is a forum for debate.Why have the moderators got all defensive?
> 
> A forum has absolutely no clout with regards to hobby issues, it is just a sounding board.Whereas organisations like the F.B.H.does.Why dont you work with him?


 
I thought it was a place to come for help and to share expiriences in a helpful and supportive way, it isn't the house of commons.: victory:


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## pam b

Ian.g said:


> this is where you are wrong.....comments like this do nothing but stir up more arguments!


Nope, from what i've just read your all quite capable of doing this all on your own.:lol2:


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## GRB

colinm said:


> This is a forum for debate.Why have the moderators got all defensive?
> 
> A forum has absolutely no clout with regards to hobby issues, it is just a sounding board.Whereas organisations like the F.B.H.does.Why dont you work with him?


?

I'm not getting defensive other than just outlining the situation as I see it. I mean you yourself made the comment that we should have done more to stop him leaving; I simply rebutted that by stating we tried to keep him but we were not going to ignore our own rules just because it was him. 

I've had to deal with his posts in the past and I am not exaggerating with the examples I have stated. This was his world view at that time and it seems it still is. 



colinm said:


> *It would seem to me that a greater effoert should have been made from the administrators on here to keep him on here*,in order that people can keep uipdated with the latest going ons in the hobby.
> 
> *But then what would you expect from a forum that has more posts about how much is my lesser bee,hypo ,banana worth or about getting your bits out for the 18+,than about hobby issues?*


This comment is particularly unfair as you are disregarding everyone on the hobby because of a single sub forum or type of (often) beginner thread that you dont like or see the point of. 

It's all very well supporting Chris Newman and similar causes, but there is more than one way to go about it and everyone has different focuses. I have no issue with someone wanting to come here and casually chat about leopard geckos or a chilean rose. It doesn't make them any less valuable to this forum than someone like myself who studies them academically or has policy interests.


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## GRB

colinm said:


> This is a forum for debate.Why have the moderators got all defensive?
> 
> A forum has absolutely no clout with regards to hobby issues, it is just a sounding board.Whereas organisations like the F.B.H.does.Why dont you work with him?


Why dont they work with us? 

We have rules, it's not really a mutual respect if they expect to disregard them. 

In the grand scheme of things, even the work they do is not the most important. I could quite easily cite some of the work of my colleagues in conservation research that frankly is the reason many reptile and arthropod species still exist to be able to be collected for the hobby trade in the first place...


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## colinm

Well from where I am sitting I cant see a better alternative to the F.B.H. whether you like the individuals or not,they are fighting for our hobby.I just cant see why people dont support them.Surely it is the hobby that is the most important thing here?

I cant comment on the trade of reptiles and amphibians because I have no dealings with it but I would suspect that the "pet " trade is very small compared to the food trade in these species.

I was not meaning to be dismissive of beginners just trying to state that if you look at the number of threads or viewings of the items that I stated is far greater than any to do with the hobby issues.People just dont seem to care.


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## GRB

colinm said:


> Well from where I am sitting I cant see a better alternative to the F.B.H. whether you like the individuals or not,they are fighting for our hobby.*I just cant see why people dont support them*.Surely it is the hobby that is the most important thing here?



This is my point - we never said we did not support them. We want to support them, but we still have to function as a forum and be fair to all our users. I dont think it shows any respect to expect us to ignore our own rules just because the content might be of importance. 

We said we'd support his posts but we wanted him to pm us first if he was going to multi-post the same message across multiple forums. This was not a one off - he was asked several times by several moderators and by admin. 

We could have made it an announcement which is more visible to a wider audience. The FBH also could have had a specific FBH profile from which to post announcements. 

I'm not sure what else we could have done - and now it seems the message we're getting is that because we didn't give him free reign that means we don't support the FBH. If anything, he's hurt the image of the FBH in my eyes more than anything else.


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## GlasgowGecko

colinm said:


> Well from where I am sitting I cant see a better alternative to the F.B.H. whether you like the individuals or not,they are fighting for our hobby.I just cant see why people dont support them.Surely it is the hobby that is the most important thing here?
> 
> I cant comment on the trade of reptiles and amphibians because I have no dealings with it but I would suspect that the "pet " trade is very small compared to the food trade in these species.
> 
> I was not meaning to be dismissive of beginners just trying to state that if you look at the number of threads or viewings of the items that I stated is far greater than any to do with the hobby issues.People just dont seem to care.


'People' may pay less attention to 'worthy' threads, but RFUK cannot be expected to force them into taking part (as frustrating as this may seem).

For the record, there are clearly separate issues here. A member has left (which is regrettable), but RFUK have never prevented any message from either this member, or the FBH being transmitted through the forum. In fact, all efforts have be made to accommodate these messages. Unfortunately Chris has seen fit to leave based on a disagreement over our rules, and potentially the way they were put to him. The suggestion that we do not support the "herpetological community" however, or the good work Chris does as part of the FBH is complete nonsense, and totally unjustified. I feel a little perplexed as to why it has been suggested to be the case in fact.

Perhaps it is also worth pointing out that as far as we are aware, it is only Chris, and not everyone affiliated with the FBH that has decided to no longer post here. I suspect this means that key messages will still be transmitted on RFUK, as I am sure that the FBH is aware that it still represents a large number of reptile keepers in the UK and further afield. Furthermore, we should all remember that the FBH is not stopping fighting in defense of reptile keeping, and so this really should not be the issue here.

Andy


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## ratboy

GRB said:


> I'm not sure what else we could have done - and now it seems the message we're getting is that because we didn't give him free reign that means we don't support the FBH. If anything, he's hurt the image of the FBH in my eyes more than anything else.


Well you could stop banning everyone that has a different viewpoint to you for starters


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## Purple_D

What a to-do over one man leaving.
Though I have never seen so many mods post on one thread,I wonder why:whistling2:


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## Ian.g

Purple_D said:


> What a to-do over one man leaving.
> Though I have never seen so many mods post on one thread,I wonder why:whistling2:


because people are assuming that it is us as moderators who are not supporting, or promoting the support of the FBH (which is nonsense), I can only speak for myself...but I have the utmost respect for Chris and the work he and the FBH does, but to me I can understand that as a forum we do have to adhere to the rules set out....I am sure if Chris was to contact us with his concerns and such then maybe due to it being such an important issue etc then exceptions may have been made, but to leave because of one issue like this is very rash IMO...if getting the message accross is of that much importance (which I believe it is) then a PM to admin etc explaining so would have been a far better way to deal with it, rather than simply leaving the forum and stating that RFUK do not support the FBH and the hobby etc.


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## GRB

ratboy said:


> Well you could stop banning everyone that has a different viewpoint to you for starters


We didn't ban Chris : victory:


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## Row'n'Bud

reminds me of people being more than just a little bit on the defensive............posting threads of importance on every section on here would be in most cases the only way they were being seen as very few seem to pay much heed to this section...yet now it's called spam posts all over the forum???.....can't blame the man for leaving :gasp:


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## ratboy

GlasgowGecko said:


> Perhaps it is also worth pointing out that as far as we are aware, it is only Chris, and not everyone affiliated with the FBH that has decided to no longer post here. I suspect this means that key messages will still be transmitted on RFUK, as I am sure that the FBH is aware that it still represents a large number of reptile keepers in the UK and further afield. Furthermore, we should all remember that the FBH is not stopping fighting in defense of reptile keeping, and so this really should not be the issue here.


Maybe you could put links up to more serious forums like Scotts when issues arise.


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## GRB

ratboy said:


> Maybe you could put links up to more serious forums like Scotts when issues arise.


Any point to these digs?


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## ratboy

GRB said:


> Any point to these digs?


What digs ? They are serious suggestions.


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## GRB

Row'n'Bud said:


> reminds me of people being more than just a little bit on the defensive............posting threads of importance on every section on here would be in most cases the only way they were being seen as very few seem to pay much heed to this section...yet now it's called spam posts all over the forum???.....can't blame the man for leaving :gasp:


The better alternative which is even more visible than posting on every section is to pm the admin staff who can put it up as a site announcement. 

The guy is clearly no fool which is why I am astounded we had to ask multiple times for him not to do it.

It's just a matter of manners and mutual respect. We don't head over to his house (the FBH forum) and post everywhere about matters we find of importance (arachnid conservation anyone? urban town planning? species concepts?).


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## Jimmyjayz

read some of this and seen people making comments about toys thrown out of prams etc, perhaps when sitting on your arses and not being able to go to a show that was on in previous years, you might remember how much this man does for our trade, and its all behind closed doors so he really is the unsung hero of the reptile uk trade, shame on all those to fast to judge.

i have to say sometimes this trade makes me laugh, most {not all} seem to judge shops as ripping people off. then love a show for being able to sell there animals at a higher rate than a shop would pay, then easily forget about the person fighting to keep the shows alive, without the input of Chris, i doubt Kempton or many other shows would survive for even another year !!

Personally if i was in charge of this site i would be doing everything within my power to make sure you kept him as an asset for this site, if anyone person should have been given the benefit of the doubt over anything on this site it should be him, when does he ever do things for his own gains he doesn't, so if a rule was broken it was the entire trade that would have benefited.


rant semi over lol


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## GRB

Jimmyjayz said:


> read some of this


I suggest you go back and read it all, the point you raise have already been covered.

At the risk of going over old ground, it doesn't matter what Chris does elsewhere when it comes to the rules of this forum. As I've already illustrated, the usage of the term 'importance' is subjective and varies. If we used 'importance' to decide who gets to follow the rules and who can break them then the whole place would just be a free for all. 

Plus, if people read the entire thread they'd see that:

a) This was Chris' choice
b) Chris is not the FBH and we have never stopped the FBH posting about issues here
c) If he still wants to post then he can, so long as it follows the same rules as everyone does
d) Him leaving RFUK is not going to suddenly result in the cancellation of reptile shows


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## Jimmyjayz

GRB said:


> I suggest you go back and read it all, the point you raise have already been covered.


might have been, but the point is people were still narrow sited enough to think like that though, so my point is still valid.

and personally i don't think it can be said enough just how much Chris does or should i say did for this forum


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## GRB

Jimmyjayz said:


> might have been, but the point is people were still narrow sited enough to think like that though, so my point is still valid.
> 
> and personally i don't think it can be said enough just how much Chris does or should i say did for this forum


Oops, I hit the submit button before the rest of the message was written. 

None of us are saying that Chris has not been an asset to the hobby. I'm not even sure where this has stemmed from.


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## Colosseum

Everyone is getting far to excited on here this thread has already attracted the attention the OP was wanting so its going around in circles just lock or delete the damn thing.

Anyone for a Steak n Kidney pie?


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## mrcriss

Colosseum said:


> Everyone is getting far to excited on here this thread has already attracted the attention the OP was wanting so its going around in circles just lock or delete the damn thing.
> 
> Anyone for a Steak n Kidney pie?


Exactly.......the whole thing is just an exercise in attention seeking. What really is the point?

Steak & Kidney not really my thing (veggie), but I could eat a cheese 'n' onion pasty!


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## GRB

Well, it would seem to me that everything worth covering has been covered and it is indeed going round in circles. 

/closed.


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