# Can you justify it........?



## TSKA Rory Matier

One of the biggest arguments raised by the opposition is the ethics behind keeping exotic companion animals.

There are many readers here who would say it is not right to keep primates, because you can not recreate the environment for those animals to be sustained within captivity.

This may or may not be true.

Certainly l think it is never possible to with 100% accuracy recreate the entire environment that primates would receive in the wild, but l do believe that all keepers can in many respects recreate to a certain degree certain elements of the natural habitats that a species may enjoy living wild.

But this as said is the main argument from the opposing side for not just primates but for all species that are kept by collectors, enthusiasts and those passionate about exotic husbandry.

The biggest question they raise is this:

"Can you justify keeping exotics?"

So the question to the readers is as follows:

Can you justify keeping reptiles and for those of you who do, also this question, can you justify keeping exotic mammals?

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## ratboy

How can you justify any hobby ? especially ones that involve animals.

Captive reptiles are free from disease, injury, predation and weather extremes but that is about all you can say... and even then with the conditions some are kept in the first two are highly debatable. They also have fresh water and food as and when they require it... or at least they should do.

Does this justify keeping them ? No it doesn't. The plain and simple truth is I keep snakes because I like them and find them interesting and I am confident that I can give them long and healthy lives.

I don't believe that anyone can justify keeping any animal since every animal kept by man is kept for the benefit of man, not for the benefit of the animal. I do not buy the 'it's for the future of the animal and the species' ... that's just bull. No captive bred animal should ever be released into the wild. We are creating pets, nothing more and nothing less.

But then if they are kept well, are healthy and are content enough to express their natural behaviours in captivity, I don't believe that the anti's can justify forcing us to stop keeping them either.


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## ratboy

Exotic mammals follow the same argument in my view. If the keeper provides for their needs and the animal is free to express it's natural behaviour then it is absolutely no different to the keeping of reptiles.


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## easty

i keep snakes because it is my right to. i am a law abiding citizen, i work, i pay my tax, i pay for the right of freedom of expression, so if i want to express myself by looking after exotics then thats what i do. Does that justify keeping animals as a pet, not really from a moral point of view. I justify it to myself because i know that if the snake is in my care then it will be provided for properly and hopefully live a long and happy life, thats enough justification for me.


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## DeanThorpe

non exotic animals are the same also, cats, dogs, Fish, horses.
either you can justify keeping animals or not..regardless of what they are [my opinion, nothing more] 
And furthermore The same goes for justifying everything we do....
For many years now Man has not had to justify what he does, not to nature, not to god, not even to fellow man.

I can certainely justify keeping pets more freely than i can justify cutting down a tree, spraying deodrant under my arm, riding in a car that is anything less than 100% eco friendly, or even buying a luxury item we dont really need.

Within the limits and standards man has set for himself I can see no harm in leeping Pets, exotic or otherwise and giving them the very best possible care.


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## Issa

One of the reasons I keep reptiles over other animals is the fact that Im allergic to many types of animal fur. If furless exotics weren't available, the chances are I wouldn't keep pets at all.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Hi Dean, 

In recent times, the antis have classed all animals within our care as exotic companion animals. This includes, dogs, cats, fish, gerbils, birds the lot. So the question is aimed at all fraternities and all the animals we keep.

To make the clarification easier to this forum, it was aimed at reptiles and exotic mammals.

R
PKL


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## sparkle

i cant jusify it.. 100%

it may be our legal right at the moment..

but theres not a week goes by where i dont wonder... 

water dragon... if only you could swim in rivers and jump from branch to branch.. ( soppy like a sad LASSIE film yes.. but honest)

etc etc

also the same for my snakes and other lizards...

i feel this way but tend not to linger on it..

I keep these animals as i find them both interesting, and beautiful... they amaze me.. but i also feel sometimes very selfish....


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## brittone05

I don't think any hobby has a justifiable reason - my other hobby is expensive handbags how can I justify spending over £400 on one - simple, I can't.

I think for the most part, any hobby boils down to our own narcissism as a society. Can anyone say they keep thier snakes or lizards for the hell of it? Just ofr the hell of it with no pointers to keeping them because we like them, because it gives me personal satisfaction caring for them?? That is narcissism.

Now, I am not for one minute saying that that is wrong in any way - I am narcissistic - I keep my animals because I enjoy them, it gives me satisfaction knowingt hey are safe and loved with my family and me, that they are safe from predators nad such but whatever way it is dressed up it still boils down to self satisfaction   

Any more narcissistic keepers here??


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## sparkle

brittone05 said:


> I don't think any hobby has a justifiable reason - my other hobby is expensive handbags how can I justify spending over £400 on one - simple, I can't.
> 
> I think for the most part, any hobby boils down to our own narcissism as a society. Can anyone say they keep thier snakes or lizards for the hell of it? Just ofr the hell of it with no pointers to keeping them because we like them, because it gives me personal satisfaction caring for them?? That is narcissism.
> 
> Now, I am not for one minute saying that that is wrong in any way - I am narcissistic - I keep my animals because I enjoy them, it gives me satisfaction knowingt hey are safe and loved with my family and me, that they are safe from predators nad such but whatever way it is dressed up it still boils down to self satisfaction
> 
> Any more narcissistic keepers here??


 

hands up.... me... why else keep an animal. unless its a working horse or dog on a farm


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## Matt Harris

If you aren't harming anyone else, and aren't harming wild populations, then as long as the animals are kept in the correct conditions then this is all the justification you need.

Richard Griffiths (I think) of DICE had a paper suggesting that herps, among all animal groups, were the best suited to captive reproduction as a conservation tool, because of things like relatively small size, simpler behavioural requirements etc etc.


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## gaz

its becomming a tad crap when we have to justify our rights as British citizens:whip:
gaz


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## Moshpitviper

Why should we be justifying keeping an animal correctly to live its natural life in captivity? The antis are missing a valid point. that point is that a farmer cannot justify the keeping of his/her cows as they will eventually be led for slaughter.... so he/she cannot guarantee their safety. if the antis were to follow this route prior to picking on us they would fall on their collective arse at the first hurdle.

our animals in most cases are catered for in all the tickboxes for their required husbandry. so any groups wishing to take on our hobby need to look at many other animal industries before tackling the pet trade/hobby.

also a final point, i am also a narcisistic keeper. it is selfish to keep animals really. but how many peoples irrational fears have we cured? how many people who hear i own a skunk reply with disgust? until of course they meet said skunk. education and conservation is the name of our game. i hear rumours sri lankan pythons may well be exctinct after the tsunami? how many of us breed or keep this species?

told.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Just a quickie*



gaz said:


> its becomming a tad crap when we have to justify our rights as British citizens:whip:
> gaz


Would it make a difference if you were an American, French, Indian, African?

Whilst l can see where you are coming from Gaz, this is not about justifying your citizenship, but more to the point of justifying whether you/we should keep any exotic animal.

R
PKL


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## Esarosa

Can you justfity it?
no

Do i feel selfish sometimes for keeping exotics?
yes

Do my animals live as full a life as possible?
yes.

animals fascinate me and always have done. yes we keep them for selfish means, but providing it isn't impacting on their mental wellbeing (in the case of primates kept individually in bird cages), wild populations or their health.. I see few problems.

I'd love to get involved with captive breeding programmes of endangered animals if at all possible one day, so that i can give something back.


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## gaz

meant having to justify rights which we already have
gaz


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## TSKA Rory Matier

I Know Gaz, l as said do understand what you wrote, how you wrote it and what you were implying with what you wrote.

We are living in a nation where we are continually having to justify what we do, how we talk, how we act and in this case how we keep our animals or as those that oppose would have it, how we should never keep our animals.

R


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## gaz

problem is that the anti mind is incapable of bending in the face of any logical justification or facts for that matter,they are idealists full stop and no argument however eloquent or full of facts will pursuade them to change their views.
occassionally one gets the chance to see our side of things like Richard Course the one time leader of LAC'S who defected to the hunting supporters after going out to see for himself,but these are very rare and dont make a difference to the average anti.
regards gaz


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## easty

gaz said:


> its becomming a tad crap when we have to justify our rights as British citizens:whip:
> gaz


:no1: spot on Gaz!!


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## SiUK

you cant justify anything to anyone if they are not prepared to listen and understand your point of view.


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## Daredevil

At the end of the day most people provide good homes and lives for their reptiles (or at least i do)!!

If someone wants to keep a tiger that was born in captivity as a pet then what's the problem!! It won't survive in the wild as it hasn't been taught to hunt and i personally don't think tigers will be left in the wild in 20-30 years time!! As long as a pet is cared for and is not a danger to others then i don't see what the problem is!!

In my view, the day when you can't do things you want (law abiding) then this country will be turning into a dictatorship!! I think all the anti-exotic pet people should f**k off and get a life themselves instead of trying to ruin other peoples!!:whip:

Brad


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## Angi

Sometimes I wonder if anti' forget that WE are animals, WE lived outdoors, We progressed ( I think!) and now live longer,healthier ( sometimes) lives, so why not provide that luxury to other animals where we can.

I agree with what SiUK said, it is difficult to get your point across to people that are already vehemently against animals being kept as pets.


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## poizon

Angi said:


> Sometimes I wonder if anti' forget that WE are animals, WE lived outdoors, We progressed ( I think!) and now live longer,healthier ( sometimes) lives, so why not provide that luxury to other animals where we can.
> 
> I agree with what SiUK said, it is difficult to get your point across to people that are already vehemently against animals being kept as pets.


i completey agree, and tbh once they have their way with pets, they will then be sending us all to go back to live with the other primates. We are kept in captivity, you cant really deny that, no one is free nowadays

can i justify keeping animals? no, and there isnt anyone who can really is there, its always a urly selfish reason. my animals make me happy, and as far as i'm concered, are part of the family. i keep them because i love them, i love learning and watching them.


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## gaz

how do the antis justify supporting a government that has involved us in three uneccessary wars which have resulted in countless deaths?? tinge of hypocrasy in the air?
regards gaz


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## SiUK

has anyone seen the Penn and Teller Bullsh*t about PETA one of the most hypocritical (sp?) bits on the report is this woman who is high profile in PETA had lifesaving treatment that had been tested on animals to perfect it, which is something they are very strongly against and campaign constantly about, then tried to justify it by saying it was alright for her to have it done because its saved her life so she can go on fighting for animal rights. So hypocrisy is something they are very familiar with.


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## Esarosa

Yeah I did see that video..must admit it cracked me up.

'all those pet owners who give money to PETA..feel stupid now?'


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## gaz

didnt southpark do a peta piss take episode too?
gaz


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## Demonique

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Can you justify keeping reptiles and for those of you who do, also this question, can you justify keeping exotic mammals?
> 
> Rory Matier
> Pro Keepers Lobby


How can you justify keeping dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, guinea pigs, etc?

If you ban exotics, then I think everything else should be banned.


One moron thinks reptiles should be banned because then it will save the lives of the cude widdle fwuffy mice, she keeps a dog, by her logic shouldn't dogs be banned because then it will save the lives of the livestock that goes into the making of dog food.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Demonique said:


> How can you justify keeping dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, guinea pigs, etc?
> 
> If you ban exotics, then I think everything else should be banned.
> 
> 
> One moron thinks reptiles should be banned because then it will save the lives of the cude widdle fwuffy mice, she keeps a dog, by her logic shouldn't dogs be banned because then it will save the lives of the livestock that goes into the making of dog food.


 
And to be honest, if they were looking at a ban, as l have said they would start with exotics and then slowly work their way forwards on and into other areas.

So as hard hitting a post as you may think you have made because you are angry at the possibility of a ban on exotics, in reality you have done nothing except raise issues that the opposition has been looking at for the last ten years anyway.

If the opposition battled to cease the keeping of certain animals, restrict the keeping of others except perhaps to toughened licence and to reduce the keeping of a further group to the basics, this is something they could do - that is a simple fact.

WHY?

Because apathy and ignorance still rue the day in the minds of those whom keep animals.

Gaz, not long back said there are those that ignore things and then there are those that deny its presence. The few that are aware of it are considered black sheep amongst a huge white herd.
R


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## Cyberlizard

There are perfectly valid reasons for keeping reptiles and amphibians:

1. An interest in a much-maligned group of animals
2. The aesthetic beauty of some, eg some geckos or poison dart frogs
3. The companionship of some species such as igs, plateds, beardies, corns and tortoises

I believe that a responsible keeper also learns to be more responsible inasmuch as (s)he has something else to take care of - particularly valid if you live alone.

A further beneficial byproduct of keeping herps is the window into the world of nature and natural history. Before my partner started bringing home animals I knew virtually nothing about nature and cared about it probably even less. Now I am genuinely concerned about conservation because it affects animals that I know something about, and I find all zoology and natural history interesting. None of this would have come about without those first pets.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

Good post Cyber,

Sadly l feel at times with the way the market is shaping up in terms of opposition, as excellent a response as yours is - in their eyes, it still does not matter one iota.

R


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## Stubby

I feel justified in keeping animals because I am confident I can provide a good environment for them to live a healthy and happy life. At the moment I only have stick insects because in my current housing situation they are all I can take responsible care of. If I can't take care of something then I do not keep it. I feel that if you can keep an animal in a suitable environment where it can show natural behaviours then keeping it as a pet is justified. I wouldn't keep a green iguana because I wouldn't be able to give it the environment it needs, but I don't believe this means someone in a different situation with different skills and knowledge shouldn't keep one.

There is only one step from keeping an animal in captivity as a pet and keeping an animal in a zoo and I believe zoos are vital in maintaining species that through the actions of humans would no longer exist in the wild. There are some species of reptiles whose population has been saved by reptile hobbyists.

Hmmm, that's a bit waffly, but I think I know what I mean, hopefully it makes sense to others as well :blush:


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