# Whites Tree Frog just not growing....



## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

I've had a trio of Whites since september and two of them are growing nicely. One however (Nicknamed 'Shrimp' as he was always the smallest) hasn't grown much and is lagging behind the other two, if he falls behind much more I will have to seperate him and put him in his own set up.

Is there a reason for this? Could it be 'bullying'? He seems fine, though he does seem to be shedding alot but not really getting any bigger over time 

As far as I know hes still eating and I even hand feed him sometimes to make sure. All Three are in an Exo Terra 60x45x60 (I hope to move them into a 60x45x90 sometime soon) with a heatmat on the side thats set at 29c max in the day and 24c at night.

I have noticed he likes to sit on the cool side in the day in a Mother-in-laws tongue while the other two can usually be found next to the heat mat.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

He may not be bullied directly, but there is a chance he is intimidated by the others, or is just not as fast catching his food. Sounds like you are on the case, though.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Thought it might be down to somesort of bullying, being as the other two are larger.

Just hope its nothing serious, is there anything it might be? Ceratinly haven't vme accross anything as I have been researching WFT's.

This is a photo I took a few weeks ago:


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## kirsty-kay (Nov 19, 2011)

I ve had this to and same as you a while ago posted on here for help, basically what I ve done is noticed my smaller one doesn't arrive in the food bowl the minute I open the viv so both bigger ones were catching more food than her, so I now feed those 2 wait until little one is Definatly up and about and feed her with slightly smaller hoppers so she has a chance to hunt before they dive in, she's come on leaps and bounds and is starting to hold her own with the other 2 happily having a bath next to them now, it's what I think a confidence thing with being smaller. Hope yours catches up soon.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

I've made the decision to seperate him from the other into a smaller viv for the time being so I can monitor him and make sure hes feeding ok.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> I've made the decision to seperate him from the other into a smaller viv for the time being so I can monitor him and make sure hes feeding ok.


That sounds sensible. :2thumb:


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

He does seem to be shedding alot, and he really doesnt look comfy while doing it, can see the shed in his mouth but hes just sitting there, his breathing seems ok and has been coming out to sit in his bowl (Though he didn't last night). Could this be something or is he just settling in to his new quarantine tank?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> He does seem to be shedding alot, and he really doesnt look comfy while doing it, can see the shed in his mouth but hes just sitting there, hs breathing ok and has come out to sit in his bowl. Could this be something or is he just settling in to his new quaruntine tank?


Has he shed evenly? Unless he has patches of dry or unshed skin, he's probably ok.


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## Oli P C (Sep 17, 2009)

*hi*

Just make sure ther is a nice big water bowl for him to get in deep enough so he can fully submerge himself but not to deep keep temp rite try and get set up warm one side and slightly cooler the other plenty of hiding places I'm sure he will be fine.put bit of food in but make sure food items are not to big as they can stress the frog then add the amount of food after a couple of days after you can see him eating.:2thumb: Any probe with shedding after week or so start giving him long soaking daily


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

He seems to have shed ok when he has shed. He seems to have his eyes closed alot as well as shedding alot. I can't tell if I'm just worrying about him too much but I cant find anything to suggest there is a problem, reading about shedding I thought it might be low humidity but the other two seem fine. I do use a hygrometer on the cool side and it was reading 75%, a little high. (However I do know those things are rubbish but I'd reckon I'm not good enough at guessing the humidity just yet )

I've got a heat mat on one side of the viv and have been taking out any crickets that I are still in the morning after.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> He seems to have shed ok when he has shed. He seems to have his eyes closed alot as well as shedding alot. I can't tell if I'm just worrying about him too much but I cant find anything to suggest there is a problem, reading about shedding I thought it might be low humidity but the other two seem fine. I do use a hygrometer on the cool side and it was reading 75%, a little high. (However I do know those things are rubbish but I'd reckon I'm not good enough at guessing the humidity just yet )
> 
> I've got a heat mat on one side of the viv and have been taking out any crickets that I are still in the morning after.


Again, you are doing everything I would do.


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## Oli P C (Sep 17, 2009)

*w.t.frog*

They do close eyes alot when shedding in sure he will be fine.how dose he seem at nite and the lights are of for a while he should be wide eyed and looking alert.would you say he is very different to your others I behaviour? I'm sure he will be fine if your worrying about humidity just give him a little misting: victory:


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm kind of annoyed with my self that I've left him this long before seperating him, the other two have really gorwn on since last september, but hes really fallen behind.

I was in two minds because I wasn't sure If i shold be seperating him (if he falls behind too much, they may try and eat him) but then all the stress of moving into a new set up. I just dont understand why he hasnt been growing :/ I've often handfed him (with vit and Cal dust ofc) just to make sure hes getting his food, but he does seem to spend most of his time on the colloer side, where as the others spend the day right next to the heat mat.

The only other thing that may be worth mentioning is I know for a fact that hes a male, I also know one other is a male which as I have seen/heard these two call. The other large one hasnt called, could be female? Could this cause any problems with a two males and one female in a tank?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> I'm kind of annoyed with my self that I've left him this long before seperating him, the other two have really gorwn on since last september, but hes really fallen behind.
> 
> I was in two minds because I wasn't sure If i shold be seperating him (if he falls behind too much, they may try and eat him) but then all the stress of moving into a new set up. I just dont understand why he hasnt been growing :/ I've often handfed him (with vit and Cal dust ofc) just to make sure hes getting his food, but he does seem to spend most of his time on the colloer side, where as the others spend the day right next to the heat mat.
> 
> The only other thing that may be worth mentioning is I know for a fact that hes a male, I also know one other is a male which as I have seen/heard these two call. The other large one hasnt called, could be female? Could this cause any problems with a two males and one female in a tank?


No, with White's, that wouldn't cause a problem- they are competitive, but not aggressive. To be honest, maybe he's just a runt.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> No, with White's, that wouldn't cause a problem- they are competitive, but not aggressive. To be honest, maybe he's just a runt.


He was the small out of the three when i got him, hence the nickname 'Shrimp'. The others seemed to put on a sudden grown spurt, I wonder if he will now hes got a viv to him self.


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## Oli P C (Sep 17, 2009)

*food*

Give him a pinky,fuzzy every now and then that will soon fatten him up:2thumb:


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

As he seemed to have a piece of shed hanging out of his mouth for a few days, I gave him a light bath in some declorinated water to remove it, he seemed to brighten up a little afterwards. I know reptile can have a 'bad shed' but hadnt really seen anything about it in phibs.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> As he seemed to have a piece of shed hanging out of his mouth for a few days, I gave him a light bath in some declorinated water to remove it, he seemed to brighten up a little afterwards. I know reptile can have a 'bad shed' but hadnt really seen anything about it in phibs.


 I've only ever come across it where fungal diseases are involved- but there don't seem to be any signs of that.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Hes not looking well, hasn't eaten or pooed since I've separated him, Just booked him into the vets an hour away for 4.30 so I'll get back to you later when I find out what it is.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

A £44 vet bill and a two hour round trip later, hes seems to have made an improvement.

The vet checked for infections, impactions and even tested his heart beat with a little machine, was really impressed with her knowledge (Was afraid I was going to end up with some one that didnt know a lot but would 'give it a go').

She said he seemed to be fine and what had probably happened, he had been put off his food by something and to try him on something else. Apprently Whites do this, if something makes them ill or hurts them, they refuse to eat it. 

The explanation behind why he hasnt really grown could apprently be tied to his liver, she game him an injection in his forearm that should make any protein bypass his liver/kidneys and be sent to his muscles, this should last a month, will keep you updated with results of this, sounds very interesting.

She also said it was best if he was put back in with the other two, but was handfed (or forcefed lightly if he still wasnt eating). 

Well I got him home, poped him back in his viv with the others, and you know what? He perked right up, one of the others even came to 'greet' him, tryied him with a mealworm (Dont usually feed the WTFs these) and you know what? He took it xD

My bottom jaw nearly hit the floor when she told me the fee, I'm just hoping nothing else is ill for a time :/ But on the plus side I feel proud that I made the decision to take hm to the vets, knowing it was going to cost me deep in the purse and I'd do it for all my pets as long as I could afford it!


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

He hasn't improved, hes still not eating and is shedding again  Its strange because he seems alert when i pick him up, but his eyes are usually half closed.

Gave him a honey bath the other day after I read about it, he seemed ok for a while after but it seems to have worn off now. He wont eat anything I have tried.

I feel my trip to the vets was a waste of money and time, the arm she gave him the injection in is limb and he has trouble moving it, the fingers are bunched together, it probably didnt help that the vets assistant dropped him on the floor :bash:

He's starting to look noticably skinny as well. I dont know what else to do, tried force-feeding him the other day but he wont take it, can barely get his mouth open enough to let me put anything in, I dont want to force it too hard because I'm worried it will hurt him.

Is he a goner?


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

After being away yesturday and today, my girlfirne dhas told me he has pretty much sat in his bowl for 24 hours, still seems to be shedding again.

Any advice anyone?


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

If he's runty he may never have thrived anyway. Being in with two larger ones can mean he'll not do well at feeding time and if he's Ill he'll be stressed out and susceptible to more illness anyway. I've seen this happen with lizards as well, an animal that is not fighting fit might not even do well on their own and being with two bigger ones can make it worse. Little ones often go downhill and sometimes the best vet cannot pull them out of a decline. It's a vets job to do their best with what medicines and tools they have at their disposal and this can often cost a fortune whether there's a good chance of the animal pulling through or not.
Changing vivs and vet trips only add to the stress unfortunately and it's difficult for a vet to write an animal off as long as there is a chance if improvement, this however costs. I personally would have left him on his own rather than put him back in the environment in which he was declining. I would leave him in private much as possible and wait. Good luck, I hope he pulls through, but in my experience it doesn't look too 
good.

Andy


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Uromastyxman said:


> If he's runty he may never have thrived anyway. Being in with two larger ones can mean he'll not do well at feeding time and if he's Ill he'll be stressed out and susceptible to more illness anyway. I've seen this happen with lizards as well, an animal that is not fighting fit might not even do well on their own and being with two bigger ones can make it worse. Little ones often go downhill and sometimes the best vet cannot pull them out of a decline. It's a vets job to do their best with what medicines and tools they have at their disposal and this can often cost a fortune whether there's a good chance of the animal pulling through or not.
> Changing vivs and vet trips only add to the stress unfortunately and it's difficult for a vet to write an animal off as long as there is a chance if improvement, this however costs. I personally would have left him on his own rather than put him back in the environment in which he was declining. I would leave him in private much as possible and wait. Good luck, I hope he pulls through, but in my experience it doesn't look too
> good.
> 
> Andy


I would have thought it was a better idea to leave him on his own, but I was just following what the vet said. Tomorrow i'm going for the forcefeeding option,at this stage I'm left with no other choice, Hes hung on for this long.


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Are all of your whites Blue Phased? 
You tend to find that blue phase's stay smaller generally, male or female.. 
It could just be that he was a little smaller and less greedy than the others two. 
Sometimes removing an amphibian from the environment they are content in can make the issue worse, causing a stress like reaction.
From experience its better to just separate them during feeding time to monitor the individual eating pattern. 
Shedding constantly and soaking sounds like a bacterial infection though, the vet would have picked that up being experienced with whites/amphibians.
Hows he doing now? I'd stay away from force feeding, usually does more harm than good. Did you get Baytril from the vet? Let us know how you get on, hope he pulls through.


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## Oli P C (Sep 17, 2009)

*hi*

If he is deteriorating rapidly I would force feed him pinky,fuzzy depends on his size.thats my opinion.good luck hope he gets :2thumb:


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

There is definitley something wrong with the arm he had the injection in, looks likes its broken, he moves the arm but doesn't move the hand, probably thanks to the Vets assisant dropping him :bash:

I forcefed him a waxworm in nutrobal, after all he hadn't eaten for at least 2 weeks, he took it once I put it in his mouth, also following advice on another forum, gave him a soak in komodo revitalive to see if that would help. Hard to tell, he can be quite active still, after wards he spent the rest of the evening in the water bowl.

Hes hanging on, I'll give him that. He goes a very grey colour if hes been in his water bowl for a while but goes a nice green colour when hes back on his favourite mother-in-laws tongue.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I really can't think of anything to do that you're not doing already. as Uro says, he may have just been a runt from the start- altho being dropped won't have helped! :devil: if you can force-feed him for a while (bearing in mind how fragile those jaws are, of course), you may just pull him through.


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## Jenface (Apr 8, 2012)

See.. I kinda have the opposite problem. My smallest frog Kaeru is the food hog but she's not growing at all.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

What is the best forcefeeding regime what and how often? So far I gave him a waxworm with vits and cal on yesturday.


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## Oli P C (Sep 17, 2009)

How big is he?


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## Frogsrule10 (Jan 9, 2010)

*my view of the matter*

After reading through your post I realise that what you have with your frog is exactly what I had with mine (Also a blue phase). She just constantly shed and sat in her waterbowl, and if not then she would be on the ground. However my circumstances are slightly different since I had her on her own, so no competition/bullying. Unfortunately Blip (as I called her) passed away after about a month and a half of this. I think you may have to say your final goodbyes soon, sorry.  Oh well, there is always point in keeping your fingers crossed and hoping.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

All three WTF are more often green that blue, how do I know if its a blue phase?

I'd upload some photos of him I took yesturday while I gave him another soak in komodo revitalive but I haven't been able to up load photos on here for ages, it always fails.

I've ordered some vetark reptiboost to see if that helps, has the probiotic stuff that the komodo doesnt have. I haven't given up just yet but if he isn't growning, I'm not holding out much hope


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Still wont let me upload photos grrr.

Some bad news, yesturday he appeared to have blotchy white/light green marking come up on certain parts of his body, they seemed to fade a little after giving him a bath in reptiboost but came back a little later. He seemed a lot more active after his bath but still wont take food. 

I've read into these markings, stress or bacterial infection? what my next course of action?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> Still wont let me upload photos grrr.
> 
> Some bad news, yesturday he appeared to have blotchy white/light green marking come up on certain parts of his body, they seemed to fade a little after giving him a bath in reptiboost but came back a little later. He seemed a lot more active after his bath but still wont take food.
> 
> I've read into these markings, stress or bacterial infection? what my next course of action?


Stress seems most likely.


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## Lillyx (Jun 11, 2012)

Have you researched chytrid?


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Lillyx said:


> Have you researched chytrid?


Yes, but It didn't seem to be that. I hoping the Vet would have picked up on anything like that.

He has been sitting on the bottom of the tank today, found some shed underneath him. His colour is a lot healther now, the splotches seem to have gone. I forcefed him a waxworm covered in Nutrobal and once in his mouth he took it. He does seem to have some trouble swallowing food though.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

An update on 'Shrimp', hes still with us but doesn't eat unless forcefed, hes looking skiny still. Still sitting in his water bowl 24/7 and constantly shedding. I still give him baths in warm water and reptoboost.

If hes not going to pull through, is it worth considering putting him down? Horrible I know but looking at what other people have said and seeing his condition isnt making me feel any better :/


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Hes still holding on, but very skinky now. He has white spots on his head :/ 

I feel let down by the vet and I'm pretty sure now hes not going to make it, he's in his own set up and apart from everything, hes still very energetic when I pick him up to feed but always stays down near the bottom.


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## bash_on_recce (Jul 31, 2011)

Shrimp passed away today  I hope I did everything I could for him.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bash_on_recce said:


> Shrimp passed away today  I hope I did everything I could for him.


I'm so sorry- it's always horrible when that happens! But yes, you did everything I could think of, and more besides- it's not your fault, mate!


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