# leopard gecko experts



## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

:2thumb:what do you get if you breed an urban gecko phantom to an enigma leopard gecko cheers peeps


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

penfold said:


> :2thumb:what do you get if you breed an urban gecko phantom to an enigma leopard gecko cheers peeps


Depends on the Phantom, do you have a picture?

Basically, you will get (worse case):

25% TUG snow enigma het Tremper albino
25% TUG snow het Tremper albino
25% Enigma het Tremper albino
25% Normal het Tremper albino

(%s are per egg)


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

MrMike said:


> Depends on the Phantom, do you have a picture?
> 
> Basically, you will get (worse case):
> 
> ...


 camera broke at mo but will sort one out after weekend


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

If its a Macksnow Enigma! you could get alot more than that from them as well.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

how about an urban gecko sunglow or urban gecko super hypo tangerine:2thumb:


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

penfold said:


> how about an urban gecko sunglow or urban gecko super hypo tangerine:2thumb:


Sunglow x Enigma (if 2copy hypo)
50% Hypo
50% Hypo Enigma

Hypo Tang x Enigma (if 2copy hypo)
50% Hypo Enigma
50% Hypo

Any of the offspring from either of the above could mature into super hypos and express a little to extreme tangerine influences.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

so wich would be the best to play with cheers for the help guys picked up a female enigma today so want to work out who will be the luckiest boy


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

How orange are your TUGs? Even better, can you get a pick of all of them?


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

MrMike said:


> How orange are your TUGs? Even better, can you get a pick of all of them?


 ill get some pics next week when camera fixed


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2008)

what influence does the orange in TUG phantoms have in crossing with an enigma? my TUG phantom female is nearly white and i have a tang enigma male, but my male TUG phantom is orangey with pale markings,

the tang enigma is goin with a tang hypo this yr, if i put a tang enigma F (offspring) to the male TUG, what would be the outcome?

PS sorry for poaching yr thread but it cud help u 2 :lol2:

dunno how to get pics on ere so help with pics and i'll try n put sum up bout the leos in question


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Personally, I would try to keep pale with pale and bright with bright.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> what influence does the orange in TUG phantoms have in crossing with an enigma? my TUG phantom female is nearly white and i have a tang enigma male, but my male TUG phantom is orangey with pale markings,
> 
> the tang enigma is goin with a tang hypo this yr, if i put a tang enigma F (offspring) to the male TUG, what would be the outcome?
> 
> ...


Your female is superb the whole hog (TUG hypo snow albino) you really dont want to be crossing her with anything other than an top quality snow snow albino or a phantom.

As Mike said its best to keep pale with pale and bright with bright to stop the influencing of yellow in things like snows.

As your male will be made up of hypo, tug snow and albino by crossing to a enigma theres a chance you can get hypo snow enigmas and snow enigmas, because the male is pretty yellow it will more than likely intensify if crossed to something tangeriney (in this case tang enigma) so if the snow does come out it will be diluted by the orange and yellow.


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2008)

So if my supersnow baby turns out to be male that would be a good 2nd partner 4 the female phantom? If so wat would the outcome be? 

I am gona keep the phantoms together but need 2 get another female from a different parentage as mine have the same parents therefore I can't breed back.

Thanks 4 the info, I wanna try n get my phantoms as White as poss


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> So if my supersnow baby turns out to be male that would be a good 2nd partner 4 the female phantom? If so wat would the outcome be?
> 
> I am gona keep the phantoms together but need 2 get another female from a different parentage as mine have the same parents therefore I can't breed back.
> 
> Thanks 4 the info, I wanna try n get my phantoms as White as poss


That would put you in a pickle as no one yet really knows what happens whe you cross the snows.You wouldn't know what the snow offspring was.

In a nut shell likely the below.But this is just a guess.No one yet can give you a real answer.
There are maybe other outcome depending on wheather your Talbino hypo snow is [1C] or [2C] i both the Hypo and Snow area.

Super snow X Talbino snow hypo = .

Snow Poss-SPLIT Super snow/HET Talbino.
Snow hypo Poss-SPLIT Super snow/HET Talbino.
Super snow HET Talbino.
Super snow hypo HET Talbino.


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2008)

How could I find out what copies my phantoms have? I am guessing by looks the female is 1c hypo and 2c snow, and the male would be 2c hypo 1c snow.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Generally domainant mutation are visually identical whether they are in a homozygous (2c) or heterozygous (1c) state. Test breeding is usually required.
To find out, breed your TUG snow to a non-snow, if you get any non-snow offspring then the adult is heterozygous (1c).
Another way is if you know the parentage. If only one parent carried the dominant mutation then they offspring can only be heterozygous (1c)


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2008)

Ok, both parents are tug phantoms and my 2 have the same parents, this is the only part of family tree I know, does it help determine 1c/2c in any way?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Ok, both parents are tug phantoms and my 2 have the same parents, this is the only part of family tree I know,does it help determine 1c/2c in any way?.


No in Dominant [1C] and [2C] are visual the same they are only genetically differant.The only way to tell [1C] from [2C] is test breeding.

Examples.

[1C]Snow X [1C]Sow = .

Normal.
[1C]Snow.
[2C]Snow.
=======
[2C]Snow X [1C]Sow = .

[1C]Snow.
[2C]Snow.
=======
[2C]Snow X [2C]Sow = .

[2C]Snow.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

gazz said:


> No in Dominant [1C] and [2C] are visual the same they are only genetically differant.The only way to tell [1C] from [2C] is test breeding.


Or if one parent is a non-carrier you can guarantee heterozygous.


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2008)

MrMike said:


> Generally domainant mutation are visually identical whether they are in a homozygous (2c) or heterozygous (1c) state. Test breeding is usually required.
> To find out, breed your TUG snow to a non-snow, if you get any non-snow offspring then the adult is heterozygous (1c).


so if i bred a tug Ph to a normal they'd all be 1c offspring for snow, talbino and hypo, then bred back to tug Ph could result in - normal hets, hypos, snows, talbinos ?

or if my female tug Ph was a 2c snow would i get any snow crossing her with a non-snow?

and with enigmas, if you breed a normal to a 1c enigma it would give 50% enigma, 50% normal, but a 2c would give 100% 1c enigmas?


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> so if i bred a tug Ph to a normal they'd all be 1c offspring for snow, talbino and hypo, then bred back to tug Ph could result in - normal hets, hypos, snows, talbinos ?


and Hypo snow, Tremper albino hypo and Phantoms, potentially.



[email protected].c said:


> or if my female tug Ph was a 2c snow would i get any snow crossing her with a non-snow?


You would get 100% heterozygous TUG snow offspring.




[email protected] said:


> and with enigmas, if you breed a normal to a 1c enigma it would give 50% enigma, 50% normal, but a 2c would give 100% 1c enigmas?


Yup


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2008)

from phantom (2c snow) x non-snow 



MrMike said:


> You would get 100% heterozygous TUG snow offspring.


bred back would be roughly -

1/8 norm
1/8 hypo 
3/8 dom snow
3/8 snow hypo

all het tremper and snows classed as dom snow/tug line

gawd so much to do with the genetics in leos, i love the science behind these gorgeous creatures!

if i had a 1c snow gene in phantom would i get a 50/50 chance of het?


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> from phantom (2c snow) x non-snow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The below assumes you hold back a TUG snow Hypo from the original pairing to breed back, and assumes the original Phantom is homozygous for all three traits....

Homozygous TUG snow Homozygous Hypo Homozygous Tremper albino cross Heterozygous TUG snow heterozygous Hypo heterozygous Tremper albino will give:

12.5% Homozygous TUG snow Homozygous Hypo Homozygous Tremper albino (AKA Phantom)
12.5% Homozygous TUG snow Homozygous Hypo Heterozygous Tremper albino (AKA TUG snow Hypo het Tremper albino)
12.5% Homozygous TUG snow Heterozygous Hypo Homozygous Tremper albino (AKA Phantom)
12.5% Homozygous TUG snow Heterozygous Hypo Heterozygous Tremper albino (AKA TUG snow Hypo het Tremper albino)
12.5% Heterozygous TUG snow Homozygous Hypo Homozygous Tremper albino (AKA Phantom)
12.5% Heterozygous TUG snow Homozygous Hypo Heterozygous Tremper albino (AKA TUG snow Hypo het Tremper albino)
12.5% Heterozygous TUG snow Heterozygous Hypo Homozygous Tremper albino (AKA Phantom)
12.5% Heterozygous TUG snow Heterozygous Hypo Heterozygous Tremper albino (AKA TUG snow Hypo het Tremper albino)

Damn that was a lot to type...


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> from phantom (2c snow) x non-snow


Personally i work things out as if everything were 1copy.
That way you know the worse case scenario, and anything that is two copy is a bonus and can be recorded for future pairings.

It also wont make much difference in most cases if you are trying combos or have a goal, its still possible with all 1copies just lower odds.


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