# Makes me sick!



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

So it's no secret that I can be a little outspoken at times....but this really takes the jaffa cake!

I've been banned from a couple of american facebook groups devoted to coatis for speaking out against the horrendous practice of tooth and claw pulling in the name of having a less scratchy pet. 

The groups "COATIMUNDI LOVERS" and "Procyonidae" both have a ton of photos of de-clawed and toothless coatis. As the proud owner of a beautiful coati boy, I love his teeth and claws, and cherish every love nibble and scratchy playtime! So I asked the questions: How common is this in the US, and if it's considered SO bad in the UK that it's illegal, why isn't it there? And why do they actively promote it as the norm on those groups, if they are supposed to be animal lovers?

The hoo-ha that followed was insane. They yanks call this "fixing" or "alterations" as if they're talking about tuning up an old banger, and they view this as a "personal choice" (clearly the owner's choice....not the poor beast it's happening to!). Well as you can imagine, true to form I had a right good old rant.....but they couldn't understand that I could be anything other than an animal rights nutter!

How can animal husbandry sensibilities be so vastly different in two nations that are supposed to be so similar and have this celebrated "special relationship"?? 

I do have a heart somewhere (although my best friend swears it's only a swinging brick), and it breaks every time I see animals with teeth yanked out (like that monkey that was on TV the other night).

In conclusion (sorry for the lengthy post), because I'm barred from those groups and unable to report them to facebook for advocating and even promoting animal cruelty to new prospective coati owners, I'm on here to name and shame Pam Robertson (admin and de-clawer/de-fanger) and Linda Rolinski (admin who thinks it's a "personal choice"), and to ask you to *please *lend your support towards getting this group shut down by reporting them to Facebook so that they can't pass on this sick advice to anyone else.

Thanks for bearing with me while I purged my fury....have a lovely day : victory:


----------



## Slicer (Feb 8, 2011)

Well said!


----------



## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Whilst I agree with you Chris it's not illegal in the US and I can't see Facebook taking it down. It's terribly sad though.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

LiamRatSnake said:


> Whilst I agree with you Chris it's not illegal in the US and I can't see Facebook taking it down. It's terribly sad though.


But there are only 80 members of the group (many of which are from Manchester Reptile Club after I told all of them).....so if FB get twice as many strong complaints mentioning animal cruelty, mutilation etc than there are members, then surely they would have to take notice?

Besides....I couldn't live with myself if I did nothing and just let them continue this abuse.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

In fact, surely this is something that BEMA could get behind as they're all for promoting good animal husbandry. I realise they are in a different country, but with the internet bringing the world ever closer together, couldn't BEMA have some kind of influence?


----------



## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Well said! And reported it, wasn't too sure what to report it as though.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Drayvan said:


> Well said! And reported it, wasn't too sure what to report it as though.


I know, the choices are ridiculously limited.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

If anyone can think of anything else I could be doing to sort this out short of flying stateside and yanking Pam's head off, then I'd love some more suggestions.:2thumb:


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

are coatis not a group species


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

adamntitch said:


> are coatis not a group species


a what?


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> a what?


 
do they not like to live in groups


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

adamntitch said:


> do they not like to live in groups


Oh sorry...get you now. The females lives in groups, but the males (known as coatimundis...mundi meaning solitary) live alone and only join the females for mating.


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> Oh sorry...get you now. The females lives in groups, but the males (known as coatimundis...mundi meaning solitary) live alone and only join the females for mating.


 
aww soz should have pmed you that lol have reported that page to facebook as well brains not working right lol was just being nosiy about coatimundis 

but dont think it well ever change over there same as monkeys being kept as babys and tigers and other big cats getting declawed poultry gets shipped when chicks in there mail same as reptiles and the abuse in marine parks and circus


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I've just checked out the pages mentioned, though they haven't accepted my request yet.

But just from the rules on the coatimundi lovers site, you can tell it will be bad. Rule 7 specifically forbids talking about mutilation. The only time any mention of it will be tolerated is if there is a new medical breakthrough to discuss. Well, it may not be new, but medically it's cruel, unnecessary and pointless.

I do t think BEMA can do anymore than complain to facebook and get others to do the same, which I intend to. Unfortunately, this kind of thing breaks no laws in the US, though it could be argued that it may encourage the procedure In this country. Despite it being illegal, we all know the are unsavoury people who would do it! Which is a whole other topic.

I'll mention it to the others on BEMA and get started on reporting the site, and would urge others to do similar.

Absolutely sickening!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

adamntitch said:


> aww soz should have pmed you that lol have reported that page to facebook as well brains not working right lol was just being nosiy about coatimundis
> 
> but dont think it well ever change over there same as monkeys being kept as babys and tigers and other big cats getting declawed poultry gets shipped when chicks in there mail same as reptiles and the abuse in marine parks and circus


Sadly true, but if we all stand by and do nowt, then aren't we as bad as them? That Linda Rolinski doesn't "alter/abuse" her coatis, but by allowing others to promote it to newbies on her group, in my eyes she is guilty by association.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Tarron said:


> I've just checked out the pages mentioned, though they haven't accepted my request yet.
> 
> But just from the rules on the coatimundi lovers site, you can tell it will be bad. Rule 7 specifically forbids talking about mutilation. The only time any mention of it will be tolerated is if there is a new medical breakthrough to discuss. Well, it may not be new, but medically it's cruel, unnecessary and pointless.
> 
> ...


Cool. The mention of an official organisation might lend some weight to the complaint.

The new rules (i'm informed by members of manchester reptile club) have been put in place as a reaction to my questioning yesterday. Apparently, Linda Rolinski wants a group that is solely for cooing at cutesy piccy wiccies of baby snuffly wufflies (their words, not mine)...and not one that can frankly discuss the important issues that affect exotic keepers and the general public's perception of us.


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> Sadly true, but if we all stand by and do nowt, then aren't we as bad as them? That Linda Rolinski doesn't "alter/abuse" her coatis, but by allowing others to promote it to newbies on her group, in my eyes she is guilty by association.


 
yeah so true could also be like desenting skunks


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I thought that rule looked a little to convenient lol

I think they may be cancelling join requests from this side of the pond too.

I'm racking my brain for ideas. I don't think facebook will do anything unfortunately, but surely our government and internet watchdogs must be able to do something g to combat the sites promoting illegal activities in this country.

It's a little late now, but in the morning I shall see about contacting my mp as a start and work from there.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

adamntitch said:


> yeah so true could also be like desenting skunks


Which is why that's also illegal now. Linda (who doesn't actually pull claws, but turns a blind eye) also said at one point : "if you want to declaw an animal, get a house cat". Crazy :censor:!


----------



## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

mrcriss said:


> Which is why that's also illegal now. Linda (who doesn't actually pull claws, but turns a blind eye) also said at one point : "if you want to declaw an animal, get a house cat". Crazy :censor:!


 
shocking


----------



## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

I knew septics did it with cats ,obviously so they dont ruin the sofa(in my best american accent).But a coatis whole purpose in life is to play,find,wreck,use its claws.Septics are a complete different species to us brits,every animal they have has to no trouble at all,they are THE spoilt throw away society we are becoming.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

animalsbeebee said:


> I knew septics did it with cats ,obviously so they dont ruin the sofa(in my best american accent).But a coatis whole purpose in life is to play,find,wreck,use its claws.Septics are a complete different species to us brits,every animal they have has to no trouble at all,*they are THE spoilt throw away society we are becoming*.


incredibly well put!


----------



## Gryffindor (Jun 24, 2012)

animalsbeebee said:


> I knew septics did it with cats ,obviously so they dont ruin the sofa(in my best american accent).But a coatis whole purpose in life is to play,find,wreck,use its claws.Septics are a complete different species to us brits,every animal they have has to no trouble at all,they are THE spoilt throw away society we are becoming.


That's really ignorant. Just because you're mad about something you're insulting an entire nation and painting us all with the same brush? I don't think we're very different at all, aside from the fact that Brits seem to like hating on other nationalities, and I'm far from a yank (or "septic") that wants every animal to be no trouble at all. In fact, I always find it weird when someone dismisses getting a certain species because it's too smelly or messy or whatever. 

And I don't declaw my cats or any other animal - i have 9 indoor only cats that over the years have messed up a lot of base boards and furniture with their claws but I see it as part of the territory of owning cats and wouldn't dream of declawing them. Most people here are very against declawing.


----------



## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

I can appreciate there are some decent americans out there,i have dealt with hundreds in the past and i have found the good pet keepers few and far between,sorry ,but my assumption is based on the ones i have had first hand experience with.In fact where i live many breeders of animals refuse to sell to americans,animal shelters will not rehome with them,there is obviously a reason for this! I appologise to you if you are one of the few.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Don't worry, we all know you're a good keeper, Gryffindor. Thing is, here in the UK, we get bombarded with endless news articles and TV shows about the latest fad in the US for "altering" their animals to suit their lifestyle....from de-clawing and de-fanging to piercing, tattooing, and peroxiding! As brits, we just can't understand how people across the pond could be so cruel and rob an animal of it's dignity in this way. There seems to be no regulation on these practices (seriously, what is up with your government?), and so looks to be spiralling out of control....what's next? This is why it evokes such strong reactions from us, and why we speak in general terms about americans on this subject.

But don't pretend for a second that you lot don't generalise about us too! I've worked alongside thousands of american tourists to london over the years, and heard some shocking stuff said about us "limeys". That's very much a two way street!

But the subject here this time is a problem that is _rife and growing_ in your country, so let us have our moment of rant please. If these practices make you sick to the stomach as they do here to us, then you are in the perfect position as a US citizen _to actually do something real_ about it!


----------



## Gryffindor (Jun 24, 2012)

animalsbeebee said:


> I can appreciate there are some decent americans out there,i have dealt with hundreds in the past and i have found the good pet keepers few and far between,sorry ,but my assumption is based on the ones i have had first hand experience with.In fact where i live many breeders of animals refuse to sell to americans,animal shelters will not rehome with them,there is obviously a reason for this! I appologise to you if you are one of the few.


Oh shut up. You're so arrogant and narrow minded. I can't see this being any different from being racist, it's just as disgusting to be against other countries as it is to be against other races. How many are in the US? Like 300 million people? And you think most of us are bad owners and people refuse to rehome to Americans... Right. :lol2: completely delusional.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Gryffindor said:


> Oh shut up. You're so arrogant and narrow minded. I can't see this being any different from being racist, it's just as disgusting to be against other countries as it is to be against other races. How many are in the US? Like 300 million people? And you think most of us are bad owners and people refuse to rehome to Americans... Right. :lol2: completely delusional.


Chill out and read my post.


----------



## Gryffindor (Jun 24, 2012)

mrcriss said:


> Don't worry, we all know you're a good keeper, Gryffindor. Thing is, here in the UK, we get bombarded with endless news articles and TV shows about the latest fad in the US for "altering" their animals to suit their lifestyle....from de-clawing and de-fanging to piercing, tattooing, and peroxiding! As brits, we just can't understand how people across the pond could be so cruel and rob an animal of it's dignity in this way. There seems to be no regulation on these practices (seriously, what is up with your government?), and so looks to be spiralling out of control....what's next? This is why it evokes such strong reactions from us, and why we speak in general terms about americans on this subject.
> 
> But don't pretend for a second that you lot don't generalise about us too! I've worked alongside thousands of american tourists to london over the years, and heard some shocking stuff said about us "limeys". That's very much a two way street!
> 
> But the subject here this time is a problem that is _rife and growing_ in your country, so let us have our moment of rant please. If these practices make you sick to the stomach as they do here to us, then you are in the perfect position as a US citizen _to actually do something real_ about it!


So...that show gave you the impression that it's a new fad or something? There are very few people doing that stuff.. I have only heard of tattooing, piercing and peroxiding (whatever that is) on another UK animal forum I go on (they were discussing that tv show you're talking about). Declawing people have always been against and defanging is just as hotly debated over here with exotic keepers. There's a coati Yahoo Group you can join and see for yourself. 

I've seen local vet practices that have posters up explaining why declawing is bad. Many vets refuse to do it. 

maybe it is a two way street, I dunno, I never hear anything bad about the UK myself, and I've had a bit of an obsession with the UK since I was 9. But Americans seem to be hated and generalized worldwide and it's really annoying and unfair. And it's not just America, I feel the same about Mexico, China, Spain, etc...it's really sick to generalize like people are doing. We were taught in school that's it's wrong to generalize and believe stereotypes, weren't you?


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Gryffindor said:


> maybe it is a two way street, I dunno, I never hear anything bad about the UK myself, and I've had a bit of an obsession with the UK since I was 9. *But Americans seem to be hated and generalized worldwide and it's really annoying and unfair*. And it's not just America, I feel the same about Mexico, China, Spain, etc...it's really sick to generalize like people are doing. We were taught in school that's it's wrong to generalize and believe stereotypes, weren't you?


*Try living in the UK when the bloody Eurovision Song Contest is on!!!:bash:*


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

I need to interject.

With my moderator hat on, I would like to say that I too am against generalising and tarnishing the whole nation with the same brush because there are zoologically minded keepers in the US aswell as the fashion brigade. You can never make sweeping statements like that without causing offence to the individuals to whom it does not apply! 

With my BEMA Chairman hat on, I would like to say that these FB groups are exactly what we, BEMA, are here for. If we can add our influence to the campaign then we will. I for one, would like to see these groups inaccessible to non US residents to prevent these sorts of inappropriate trends from spreading to our novice keepers.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Plus, as it seems we're heading down this tangent.....if you set yourself up as the most powerful nation in the world, then you have to expect a bit of p:censor:-taking!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

So Gryffindor......what are _you_ doing personally to get these procedures banned? Because if the answer to that is "nothing", then you are just another one turning a blind eye to it, which makes you almost as bad as the people that commit this violence! Sorry, but that's the long and short of it


----------



## Gryffindor (Jun 24, 2012)

It's never occurred to me before. It's not a huge problem like you seem to think it is. Of course, if you watch tv shows that are obviously meant to rile people up and make them tune in again, you'd have that impression. I think I'd rather use my time and energy on things that are more important, not something that is rarely done or advocated. 

Maybe you should go do something about it if you feel so strongly.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Gryffindor said:


> It's never occurred to me before. It's not a huge problem like you seem to think it is. Of course, if you watch tv shows that are obviously meant to rile people up and make them tune in again, you'd have that impression. I think I'd rather use my time and energy on things that are more important, not something that is rarely done or advocated.
> 
> Maybe you should go do something about it if you feel so strongly.


ermmm.....I am doing. I'm rallying support to get this facebook group shut down. It may be a small thing, but it's a start.

You may think it's not a huge problem, but almost every US website about coatis recommends claws and teeth removing and to be neutered, all before they leave the breeder.......*which is before they're even weaned off milk!!!!* Imagine going through all that in the first couple of months of life! If that is happening to just one baby a year, then to me, that's a huge problem!

So if this animal abuse isn't worthy of your concern, Gryffindor, what higher issues are you constantly working on? You were pretty vague.


----------



## Gryffindor (Jun 24, 2012)

I'm not really working on any issues (although, exotic ownership is always a battle here, despite the fact that most foreigners seem to think we all keep pet tigers in our backyards) but I wasn't aware of any big problem with declawing and defanging. I researched coatis breeders a couple of months or so ago and if I recall correctly, only one breeder defangs. I haven't seen any that declaw...then again, I wasn't on the lookout for it so I can't be sure.


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

please tone it down, I know it is an emotive subject but I don't want to be forced to close an important thread just because people are bordering on being confrontational - gryffindor is being very tolerant indeed!!!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Well, it _*is*_ an issue....'nuff said. Add that to all the other animals that get "altered" by selfish americans searching for the most unusual-looking/most defenceless/most exotic pet possible, and I would suggest that you have rather a problem over there! 

So allow us Brits, whose hearts break every time we see/hear about this kind of vain cruelty in other countries, to have our moment ranting on the matter. Thank you!

*edit*....sorry Pouchie. I've just been met with a whole load of "so what? it's our decision to make" from the people on that group and it's right wound me up!:blowup:


----------



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

mrcriss said:


> *edit*....sorry Pouchie. I've just been met with a whole load of "so what? it's our decision to make" from the people on that group and it's right wound me up!:blowup:


I feel your pain.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I forgot.....another arguement that they had was "maybe we just have better vets here that can do things that yours can't". The utterly insane reasoning of a typically idiotic mind!


----------



## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Recommends early neutering, bottle feeding, de-clawing and tooth extraction :bash:
Coatimundi Page 3

Can't see any claws in the pics..

Welcome To Knotty Girl Exotic Animal Farm, Inc.

Took me about 45 seconds to find those...it is very worrying


----------



## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

im banned from there pages now:devil:
they are serious idiots on there, one argument was "but you dont have coatis running a muck round your city" whats that got to do with de-clawing and de-teething them, do what we do with foxes, cull them if there's too many. i just told them if they want a pet that dont scratch or bite, dont get something you need to 'alter' get a bloody goldfish lol


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

"I don't like pain"......well may I suggest you keep giant snails instead?


----------



## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> "I don't like pain"......well may I suggest you keep giant snails instead?


was basically the gist of it lol.... none of them on there seem to care at all, ive tried and thats all we can do aye, reported them for something, not what i wanted to report them for cos the list they give you to choose from is crap lol


----------



## Jafna (Jun 7, 2012)

Done! Done with slight gnashing of teeth....

'6. Discussion of canine and toenail removal surgery opinions are prohibited, this is a controversial topic and starts a flame war every time. If you have something factual or a new medical break through about the surgery, you may post only the facts with links to back them up. If you fail to post the medical links to back up your post or add your own personal opinions into the thread you will be removed from the group. Stick to the facts, leave out your opinions. This group supports the pet owners right of choice. '

1. Its not a toenail, its a claw.
2. It upsets people, so lets not discuss it. What a fabulous way to live life.
3. Why the hell is it legal!?!

i'm done.


----------



## UrolithicTitan (Sep 12, 2010)

Not insulting all Americans as a whole, bot a few of the extremely cruel 'fads' that are going on in America, that aren't mentioned above;

Glider mills
Duck nappies 
keeping a single primate as a household pet
Keeping a SINGLE Chimp as a pet
And finally, feeding a sole diet of rodents to every reptile and amphibian species they possibly can.


----------



## TalulaTarantula (Jan 21, 2011)

Im not an exotic mammal owner, but i still want to say something because i honestly believe there is no need for it.

That coati webpage "i dont like pain" thats a little contradictory of her isnt it?
If they dont want to be bitten and scratched then dont get one as a pet, simple, you cant get an animal expecting to alternate it to suit your needs that isnt how it goes.

Also to the griffyn person, the reason you most likely dont hear about it is because your not in that circle, i know alot of US exotic pet keepers that do keep all sorts, including and everything up tigers and bears, and alot of them keep their "methods" all hush hush, they usually only talk about it to close fellow keepers, who believe "understand" where they're coming from.

im proud to be in the UK for the laws and legislations we have, id be horrified if we had de clawing procedures over here.

As for the FB thing, start putting up pictures of these people stating what they've done (simarlar to the anti BSL ones), it'l soon start crossposting across the web, these people need to be named and shame for the scum they are.


----------



## rita1 (Aug 24, 2012)

i agree totally with you mrcriss, i am always banging on about them descenting ferrets, and castrating them when they are still babies, but the Americans think it's ok to do, like you i have had many arguments on the ferret forums with American's, they think it ok to do, no one thinks about the poor creature they do this too.


----------



## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Sorry, ever so slightly off topic, but this...

"My kids, coatis, come into the bathroom every morning and want their “perfume fix.” I spray them or the rug and they work feverishly to put it into their tails. Don’t use cheap perfume, all coatis like the good stuff and can tell the difference. Also try putting Carpet Fresh on the floor, they don’t know which place to stop and rub their tails."

"To be a well adjusted humanized pet, a coati should be bottle raised from the age of 3 weeks old."



..is this bloke for real??!!

I am feeling an urgent need to compose a diplomatically put, but very strong, email to this chap!


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I read this a while ago and let Kenny have a sniff of some of my aftershave...."the good stuff"....he hated it! 

He must have cheap tastes....OR (revolutionary thought here) maybe he likes to smell LIKE A COATI!!!!


----------



## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> I read this a while ago and let Kenny have a sniff of some of my aftershave*...."the good stuff"....*he hated it!
> 
> He must have cheap tastes....OR (revolutionary thought here) maybe he likes to smell LIKE A COATI!!!!


Yeah yeah..from the market :hmm:


----------



## Gryffindor (Jun 24, 2012)

So you think all British exotic keepers are saints? Everyone over there keeps 2+ monkeys (I must be imagining all those "I want to get a monkey" threads on here then)? No one ever gets around the ban on altering, such as docking dog's tails? And you don't think anyone in the UK would declaw/defang if it were legal? 

This thread disgusts me. You should be judged on the type of keeper you are, not on what country you live in. Sounds like some of you have issues with America that go beyond altering animals. I've encountered the same thing on other UK forums and find it really disheartening. You think we all declaw our cats and keep rabbits in wire cages and stupid stereotypical stuff like that when it's only bad owners who do it. 



> i agree totally with you mrcriss, i am always banging on about them descenting ferrets, and castrating them when they are still babies, but the Americans think it's ok to do, like you i have had many arguments on the ferret forums with American's, they think it ok to do, no one thinks about the poor creature they do this too.


You don't have a good understanding of ferrets over here then. Ferrets breeders are extremely rare here so most ferrets come from mills, like Marshall's. Marshall descents and castrates all their ferrets at a young age before they ship them out to pet stores. The very few private breeders that exist don't. 

I hang out on US ferret forums and I've never once seen anyone say they think it's good that they're descented, or castrated at a young age. In fact, there are many discussions on how early castration leads to health problems and anyone that can gets their ferrets from private breeders. I don't know who you've been talking to but either they're woefully ignorant on ferrets or they were getting defensive because of your 'America vs UK' ranting. 



> Also to the griffyn person, the reason you most likely dont hear about it is because your not in that circle, i know alot of US exotic pet keepers that do keep all sorts, including and everything up tigers and bears, and alot of them keep their "methods" all hush hush, they usually only talk about it to close fellow keepers, who believe "understand" where they're coming from.


I am on US exotic forums but it sounds like the type of people you're describing wouldn't be on exotic forums, their "methods" wouldn't be tolerated. I do know bear keepers on one forum and they seem to take great care of their bears. 

Keeping tigers and bears isn't common. Most states don't even allow harmless animals, like foxes, hedgehogs, ferrets, skunks, etc. Heck, Georgia doesn't even allow corn snakes. I'm in Florida and we have some of the best exotic laws in the country (aside from the stupid recent python bans - it wasn't even due to pet owners that pythons got released in the Everglades!:bash but big cats, bears and other potentially dangerous animals are Class I, meaning they can't be kept as pets. Captive Wildlife Licenses & Permits

However, I don't see anything wrong with keeping tigers, bears etc. If zoos can do it private keepers can too. Private keepers aren't necessarily any different from zoos.


----------



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

To be fair to Gryffindor, and other Americans, the stereotyping isn't right. Afterall, stereotyping is something we as exotic keepers face from the general public and is something we must counteract.

There are unscrupulous keepers, even here, who would probably try to get around the mutilation laws, and there are ways around it. This is my biggest issue with the facebook sites, it could provide a means for brits to discover a way around them, which we need to combat.

On the other hand, Gryffindor, I would hope all these conscientious keepers would lobby government to bring In the laws that we brits have achieved. If the pro mutilators are the minority, it shouldn't be difficult.


----------



## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

At no point have I said "*all* americans", so I think you'll find there has been no generalisation or stereotyping from me. Living in a BNP stronghold, I loathe racism in all it's dreadful forms. I have only ever eluded that _some_ keepers in america are immoral (be they a minority or majority), and I have even said that we know Gryffindor is a particular exception to the subject of this thread......so there's really no need to get so worked up, is there? Granted, the Brits aren't perfect either....but it's so much more _*extreme*_ in the US.

If any offence has been caused, then _*I am truly sorry*_, but nor do I see the need to be so sensitive.....because I have stressed that we are _*not *_talking about yourself.

However Gryffindor, you seem to be in total denial that these practices go on whatsoever in the US, which as we've shown they clearly do. De-clawing, de-fanging, ferret de-scenting (do they really need it?), early neutering etc is common place.....purely from the number of websites that are out there saying that it's the correct thing to do! I'm sorry to break the news, but that's a fact. Just because you don't see this on whatever US forums you are on, doesn't mean that it isn't happening everywhere around you.

What alarmed me about your last post is that you said you "don't see anything wrong with keeping lions, tigers and bears. If zoos can do it, private keepers can too". Well this isn't really to do with the subject of this thread, and at the risk of diving off at another tangent, I feel I must respond. Without the tight controls on keeping these super-dangerous animals in the US, dreadful situations like the one in Ohio last year would never have happened. There are also a few facilities that we've seen on our TV screens (but there are probably more) where these animals are kept in wholly unappropriate enclosures and they call themselves a "rescue sanctuary", but breed the animals to sell as pets for profit. One such place has so many animals that it simply can't afford to keep them anymore....but still breeds yet more....and they send a load out in old-style circus beast-wagons to go on tour appearing in shopping malls for photo opportunities. I'm sure you'll agree that this really isn't acceptable. _(for UK readers...this was on the Louis Theroux doc: "America's most dangerous pets")_

So in conclusion (and I'm determined to lasso it back to the subject of the thread here).....it seems to me that the regulations and laws regarding keeping exotics require a huge amount of tightening in the US, from the keeping of large, dangerous animals, to the abhorrent so-called "alterations". I realise that the UK is by no means perfect, but these problems really do need to be addressed over the pond.


----------



## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Gryffindor said:


> So you think all British exotic keepers are saints? Everyone over there keeps 2+ monkeys (I must be imagining all those "I want to get a monkey" threads on here then)?* No one ever gets around the ban on altering, such as docking dog's tails? And you don't think anyone in the UK would declaw/defang if it were legal?*


Yes they do and yes they would, that is precisely why we could do without the advocation of such mutilisation. There are bad keepers everywhere, but the fact it is legal in the US means the practices are far more widespread.


----------



## Kev.K (Jan 3, 2010)

I agree it's disgusting, but there is nothing you can do about it. They even do the same to caracals, ocelots etc. 

I don't think you have much chance of making Americans feel differently, when many of them think it's ok to shoot a grizzly bear and stuff it. Most would probably tell you to mind your own business. 

Some people would say keeping coatis as pets is equally disgusting. 

For the record I am not. Just making a point.


----------



## Kiel (Aug 20, 2009)

Reported them.

I actually lost an american friend over de-clawing his cat, and i wasn't the only one telling him it was unnecessary and cruel. His reasoning was that he couldn't care for it because he had to work away and his parents demanded it be declawed before they took it in. I made my point clear, he didn't like it, oh wells.

As for the US vs EU stuff that comes up, I think that's merely on account of the numbers, they have more people, but a similar % of idiots, so just more to go around. Because it's not illegal, there's nothing to stop them doing it, whereas over here if they try they get turned down. It's not that they're inherently cruel, it's just that they have more idiots than we do and labeling the good keepers in with the bad is a tad silly.

Practically anyone that uses a forum like this (or its' US counterparts) obviously wants to do the best for their animals in my book, so the people you speak to aren't the audience you're aiming for.


----------

