# wildcaught english adder licence needed?



## TBreptiles (Dec 11, 2009)

just to say this now i have NOT got or caught a english adder .

but just to say if i went out found can caught a adder in the uk
would i need to have a licence to keep it?


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

I believe it's illegal, since they're endangered.
Although, a wildlife sanctuary I went to had about 3, so it's obviously legal in some situations.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Vipera berus is classed as a DWA species.

Therefore keeping one would require a license, regardless of where the snake originated from.


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## TBreptiles (Dec 11, 2009)

*hi*

yh i saw some before and a guy near me has one and he said his cat got it and brought it on but it looked very healthy to me. and was quite chunky.


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## bloodpython22 (Feb 19, 2010)

from what a friend luke told me its illegal to sell them but not illegal to catch and keep them not sure if its true as they dont really interest me


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Its not illeagal to catch them and keep them as long as you have a DWAL you also can not catch them for trade either, and they arent endangerd


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Adders are not LISTED as being endangered. However folk like myself, Tony Phelps, Graeme Skinner ect , that have carried out extensive field work will tell you that they are seriously in decline.
Many reasons
Aggressive Heathland Management using machinary that destroys hibernacula
Poor heathland management carried out at the wrong time of year, or removing scrub like gorse (Adders use gorse for hibernacula shelter)
Grazing Cattle causes disturbance that adders will not tollerate, they also eat plants vital for the survival of certain insect species , including rare butterflies.
Other reasons include
Increased heathland traffic, humans using them to walk dogs ect.
Freaky weather

Some areas still hold 'comfortable adder populations, but many do not. I have seen a dramatic drop in reptile numbers at many of my sites, especially after management. 
Some of this work was carried out over a decade ago, and still no sign of recovery, so the long term plan excuse is complete spin.

Cheers,
Al


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

Al Hyde said:


> Adders are not LISTED as being endangered. However folk like myself, Tony Phelps, Graeme Skinner ect , that have carried out extensive field work will tell you that they are seriously in decline.
> Many reasons
> Aggressive Heathland Management using machinary that destroys hibernacula
> Poor heathland management carried out at the wrong time of year, or removing scrub like gorse (Adders use gorse for hibernacula shelter)
> ...


makes me very sad


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## Skorps (Nov 23, 2009)

Al Hyde said:


> Adders are not LISTED as being endangered. However folk like myself, Tony Phelps, Graeme Skinner ect , that have carried out extensive field work will tell you that they are seriously in decline.
> Many reasons
> Aggressive Heathland Management using machinary that destroys hibernacula
> Poor heathland management carried out at the wrong time of year, or removing scrub like gorse (Adders use gorse for hibernacula shelter)
> ...


Thats Sad


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Certainly is folks, it breaks my heart to see adders i've interacted with since the 80's murdered in one swift swoop


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi Al this is a sad state mate where i live i can proberbly go and find loads of them also seen plenty around my old haunt in kent but you can go to many places and they are just barren of lots of wildlife not just snakes


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Just one example. Not a malicious deliberate act but, a tiny bit of research would've told the workers how crucial this small patch was.
The bald area was pretty much the only gorse on this patch of heath, it was also the main Hibernation den and mating area.
It was causing no problems to the heath whatsoever, yet they HAD to remove it.
I've been visiting this site since 1984ish, and watched pretty much the same adders for hour after hour, year after year. 
This work was carried out, now nothing! Just a few wandering males looking rather lost.
So, most have probably missed this years breeding and where the F' are they going to hibernate this coming winter?


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Lee,
You're lucky mate, it sounds like you're still in one of the good areas

Cheers,
Al


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Walk across most overmanaged heathland , with removed scrub and vast areas of heather and you will not see alot. The 'pretty' heaths are on the whole, useless.
But, I will add, I know that some management does need to be carried out


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

As Al Hyde has said Adders are thought to be in serious decline in some areas and have sadly disapeared from some areas entirely!

As well as the piss poor management which Al has written about there are still regular cases of Adder Bashing! I've been called in on a number of sites to investigate these and have seen 10 or so adders hanging of a barbed wire fence!

It not just the F**kwits and chavs that cause the problem I've also seen many a Gamekeepr involved in killing them due to their complet lack of understanding of what Adders eat!

I work full time in ecology and work on many projects involving adder but its sad to see many consultancies using wet behind the ears graduates who read all their adder knowledge out of a book!

As a result Adders need all the protection they can get.

I've suggested many times that Natural England CCW and SNH upgrade the level of protection afforded to Adders and more importantly their habitat, but with no results.

I dont care what anyone says wild caught adders are a nightmare to get going in captivity.

So while taking them from the wild may not be a crime under the Wildlife and Countryside Act it may end up being crime under animal welfare and DWA acts

DONT DO IT!

Its morally wrong

_If I found anyone interfering with any of my sites they could expect a visit from the boys!_


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

TBreptiles said:


> just to say this now i have NOT got or caught a english adder .
> 
> but just to say if i went out found can caught a adder in the uk
> would i need to have a licence to keep it?


simple answer..............yes, you would need a DWA license


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## Guest (May 3, 2010)

Just to throw a bit of a spanner in the works, is there any historical evidence for adder population cycles? For a species of this nature (isolated populations of comparatively small numbers) population cycles with heavy peaks and troughs wouldn't be too unexpected.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I agree it may not be against the law to remove them from the wild i agree it would be morally wrong. i am luck in that i live very close to Cannock chase where there is a good number of adders and i can go and hunt for them in there natural habitat, and as a snake keeper it sounds hypocritical but i think that is where they should be


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi Moonleh.
My records go back to 1980, Tony P's go back further. We're all familiar with the Peaks and drops in populations, this recent decline has excellerated with modern management tecniques and the other issues I mention. There may be other causes too.
Also, Many of us have found numerous dead reptiles during work and afterwards.

Now, forgive me if i'm wrong here, I do not claim to know everything , I just tell it as I (and many others) see it and what is being revealed by years of field work.
If a person claims to genuinely love reptiles , which many hobbyists, herpetologists and conservationists say they do , then they (conservationists)would do all they can to prevent the deaths of these adders.
If any of us keeping were to see our animals not doing well in our care or dying we would do all we could to look into the situation and change things for the better, would we not?
There is always room for improvement, is there not? Not according to many management teams, they've got it aaaaall spot on, and they're doing everything right.

These errors have been pointed out to the groups carrying out this work again and again, yet little has been changed to prevent this kind of thing from happening agaian and again.
The contractors paid to carrying out the aggressive work rarely if ever care about the adders

I will take various photos of recent work over the next few weeks and explain exactly what I mean. 
Many parts are left like desolate waste lands , useless to pretty much anything. Yet they often were ticking along very nicely as a mosaic of variety.


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## Guest (May 3, 2010)

Ok mate, I should stress that I wasn't criticizing the highly important work that you and the people you mentioned do, I was simply asking. I'd love to see your data (although we're in dangerous territory of going off topic here, so perhaps a new thread is needed) as I'd really like to do some conservation work with adders at some point.


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## kenneally1 (Feb 17, 2009)

Al Hyde said:


> Just one example. Not a malicious deliberate act but, a tiny bit of research would've told the workers how crucial this small patch was.
> The bald area was pretty much the only gorse on this patch of heath, it was also the main Hibernation den and mating area.
> It was causing no problems to the heath whatsoever, yet they HAD to remove it.
> I've been visiting this site since 1984ish, and watched pretty much the same adders for hour after hour, year after year.
> ...


That picture is gutting!!!!


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

I agree wholeheartedly with all that has been said on here. Even if Adders weren't declining, even if they were common as rabbits and a prospective keeper had acquired the necessary DWA paperwork, there still wouldn't be any point in going around catching any.

Adders are not shy snakes, it is possible with a little patience to get rather close to them and observe many interesting behaviours in the wild. I have found this very satisfying, as it is always a thrill to see a wild animal acting out in front of you.

If somebody has actually bothered to apply for a DWAL then there'd be no logic to catching and keeping a snake that:

i) is almost certain to die in captivity within a few months and 

ii) would put even more of a drain on wild populations. Just taking one female might radically affect an area's adder population, if that population was already small to begin with.

If you had actually applied for and received your DWAL you'd be able to purchase a captive bred species from the same genus that would make a very attractive and undemanding captive (_V. ammodytes, V. latastei_ or _V. aspis_ are all hardy, beautiful and undemanding snakes).

Francis


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

I've been spending a lot of time at sites in the New Forest the last few weeks and I haven't seen as many Adders as I would like.
It is a shame that these "conservationists" might be responsible for their decline.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Moonleh said:


> Just to throw a bit of a spanner in the works, is there any historical evidence for adder population cycles? For a species of this nature (isolated populations of comparatively small numbers) population cycles with heavy peaks and troughs wouldn't be too unexpected.


As even the most basic studies into historical population peaks and troughs would tell you, they don't include human interferance. Differences in population size include exponential growth and predator-prey relationships, amongst other things, but humanity is a new and rarely considered variable. Certainly not a factor concerned with HISTORICAL data. The modern data that you could gather would tell you the clearance Al witnessed was essential. The photo's Al offered tell another, much sadder story. Visiting the site would tell what was fact and what wasn't.
What spanner were you hoping to throw in? Were you going to tell us that you'd extrapolated from available data and concluded that the Adder was plentiful in all areas? Please answer. I'm intrigued to find out what possible excuse you can offer for the destruction of adder habitat.


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## jcole (Jun 3, 2011)

*Adder field work*

Hi there, ive just joined this forum and have a fascination for snakes particularly adders. I often go out and photograph them but would really like to become involved in some sort of voluntary research group. Have you any idea how I would find out about these groups in the North Yorkshire region?
Many thanks

Jack


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