# Doncaster Reptile Show - No More



## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I've not got a link at the moment, but will add one when I get home. However, I have just read an announcement by the IHS that June will be the last Breeders Meeting at the Doncaster Racecourse, and in Doncaster total.

The Racecourse have apparently been instructed not to renew the contract, and it appears they will not be. The APA have been pushing Doncaster Council, and have numerous Councillors and the Mayor on board, to remove shows, claiming them to be illegal, abusive and immoral.

Looks like the IHS have a job on their hands to find a new venue that will not be bullied by AR groups. Sadly, I thought the Racecourse would ignore them, having their own AR issues to contend with too, but that doesn't look to be the case.

I'll update as and when more information comes out, if required.


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## The1972 (Sep 10, 2021)

Tarron said:


> I've not got a link at the moment, but will add one when I get home. However, I have just read an announcement by the IHS that June will be the last Breeders Meeting at the Doncaster Racecourse, and in Doncaster total.
> 
> The Racecourse have apparently been instructed not to renew the contract, and it appears they will not be. The APA have been pushing Doncaster Council, and have numerous Councillors and the Mayor on board, to remove shows, claiming them to be illegal, abusive and immoral.
> 
> ...


Not 100 % sure on this but I was told a couple of years back the person who was holding the line at the licence department at Donnington council retired , after this person was gone it was only a matter of time , it's been also said that the venue owner's had wanted rid of the show for quite some time and were just winding down their contract obligation. As we know various groups wanted the show gone, not sure how much this influenced the council but as far as the venue owners were concerned their decision not to want to renew a new contact was more economic than anything else. I'm sure the IHS will find another venue, one closer to the middle of the country would be ideal


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Thought something was amiss for a while as regards future shows, as the show calendar on the IHS website, normally with 2 years of show dates, has not been amended. I keep an eye on it to book up hotels 12 months in advance. Best cancel my Doncaster bookings for September and November. Sadly, if anybody has got a cheap pay up front hotel for those dates they gunna lose their money. Agricultural, agricultural and agricultural sites, showgrounds and areas, where they don't pander to the animal rights nuts, are probably best place to go to find a new venue. That said doubt it will be easy finding a new venue at such short notice as most places are usually booked up a year or more in advance.


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## Dandridge (Oct 20, 2021)

Tweet from the APA this afternoon. Really disappointed. I've never been before and I was saving up to go in November to try and get a new hognose

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512044027725680644


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## The1972 (Sep 10, 2021)

Dandridge said:


> Tweet from the APA this afternoon. Really disappointed. I've never been before and I was saving up to go in November to try and get a new hognose
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512044027725680644


Honest these people are going to claim they closed it aren't they, take no notice of their BS , So ok they didn't help but don't believe their hype, theirs a few factors at play


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## M1chelle (May 20, 2020)

Oh that's a shame. I hadn't been in years but went to the last one and it was amazing, so many plants and amazingly kitted out enclosures.
I know the boxes should be better when reptiles are on display, but I saw some sellers really making an effort for the Reptiles.

I don't plan on going again any time soon as no need, but I do hope they find somewhere


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

The hobby really has itself to blame... looking at the images in their tweet with geckoes in tiny tubs so that the vendor can load the table and sell more only provides the anties with the ammunition they needed.... There has been lots of discussion of late regarding vivarium sizes, enrichment, and how sentinel reptiles may be, yet we as a hobby still think it's acceptable to trade animals this way and then gripe about the shows being closed with the anties claiming the victory. If we or the IHS policed the shows more with set standards for exhibit enclosure size and provisions for water bowels in these tubs / boxes etc then the anties wouldn't have the ammunition to be able to lobby councils or venue owners.

It's sad that this last large "show / exhibition / breeders meeting" (whatever you want to call it) has now reached the end, but we as a hobby must accept some of the blame for it happening.


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## M1chelle (May 20, 2020)

I completely agree, I thought that more would've been done by now.

Doncaster itself was much colder than ones from a long time ago and colder than I had expected. Not everyone had heat sources for their reptiles which I felt should of. Yes the reptiles wouldn't have the heat source once bought, but some offered to keep hold of purchased reptiles while you looked around so the reptile could stay warm.
My car journey was warmer than Doncaster as I cranked the heating up. I should've bought my polystyrene box 🤦
Some did keep reptiles under the table in boxes in order to keep them warm which I thought was great.

Some had spray bottles to keep reptiles hydrated, most didn't seem to & i didn't see any water bowls in with the reptiles.

Enrichment is a huge thing for me, I understand it would be minimal at a show, but I expected bigger boxes.

I was choosy as to which stall I would buy from.

I would like to go again in a few years, but would be be nice to see improvements.
I'm very grateful that most people attending were conscious of the fact that I don't like busy places and kept their distance. I would only go up to a stall if it wasn't busy, meant I had to walk around several times in order to get to every stall but that didn't bother me.
And some running a stall put a face mask on when I got to their stall ☺ I know face masks are more of a choice, but it's the thought!

There was a few empty stalls there which came in handy for those needing to get away from the crowds 😅

There was definitely some stalls that I felt shouldn't of been there, but that's just my opinion.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Malc said:


> The hobby really has itself to blame... looking at the images in their tweet with geckoes in tiny tubs so that the vendor can load the table and sell more only provides the anties with the ammunition they needed.... There has been lots of discussion of late regarding vivarium sizes, enrichment, and how sentinel reptiles may be, yet we as a hobby still think it's acceptable to trade animals this way and then gripe about the shows being closed with the anti's claiming the victory. If we or the IHS policed the shows more with set standards for exhibit enclosure size and provisions for water bowels in these tubs / boxes etc then the anties wouldn't have the ammunition to be able to lobby councils or venue owners.
> 
> It's sad that this last large "show / exhibition / breeders meeting" (whatever you want to call it) has now reached the end, but we as a hobby must accept some of the blame for it happening.


I fully understand what you're saying, and based on the (very old) pictures that the APA are using, I would agree. However, of late, the IHS have been doing their best to improve standards.

They have vets going round every show now, and will tell people to remove animals from sale that look ill or are not housed appropriately, they have banned various morphs that have deleterious genes, and various other things. Doncaster council sent their licensing officers round a few times, initially they had some recommendations, which were immediately implemented including adding the creche so that people can leave their animals securely, and the exchange room to prevent transactions occuring in the car park.

Is it perfect? probably not. There are a lot of selfish and greedy people out there, willing to subvert the rules. But in the 7 years that I was selling there as a dry goods supplier, I saw huge changes and improvements.

Unfortuantely, the APA have managed to grab the ear of a senior councillor. Once that happened, it was doomed.

I hope they can find somewhere else, and I also hope to see a continuation of improvements with minimum tub sizes included, that allow for the protection and safety of the animals, whilst providing a more appealing look to the casual observer.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Snakes crammed into small plastic boxes and put up for sale for over £1,000


World Animal Protection say the hundreds of reptiles on sale, which include ball python snakes, suffer unnecessary cruelty after being crammed into small plastic boxes and put up for sale




www.mirror.co.uk


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

I have only been once (September 2021). I am glad to hear improvements have been on going.

Having never bred or sold from a table, I am ignorant, but I would hope there is a code of conduct, and best practise for transport and displaying of live animals, to ensure high standards of animal welfare.
I would reason that smaller containers suitable for transporting might not be ideal whilst putting animals on a display table, and larger display containers may be less than ideal during transportation (shocks and jolts). There would also be a level of disturbance/distress during any handling/transfer between travel and display containers.

I know some of our animals can potentially sustain for weeks even months without a source of water, but for welfare compliance and public perception, I would happily add a water dish to each container, and assume I might spend more time clearing spillages and disrupting the animal, but there is a balance and a fair compromise to be made.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Swindinian said:


> I have only been once (September 2021). I am glad to hear improvements have been on going.
> 
> Having never bred or sold from a table, I am ignorant, but I would hope there is a code of conduct, and best practise for transport and displaying of live animals, to ensure high standards of animal welfare.
> I would reason that smaller containers suitable for transporting might not be ideal whilst putting animals on a display table, and larger display containers may be less than ideal during transportation (shocks and jolts). There would also be a level of disturbance/distress during any handling/transfer between travel and display containers.
> ...


In practical and requirement terms there is nothing wrong with the boxes most people are using. The issue is presentation and how that comes across to the public viewing row after row pics in sensationalist stories reported by the so called environmental editor of the Mirror Nada Faroud. What I would like to see happening on table displays is a limit on the number of animals plonked on a table at one time. For instance 16 display animals per table. If you have available stock in excess of 16 the rest stay out of sight behind the table. You sell one and then replace it from the stock behind the table. It is something I practice myself, and I don't understand why people stack up many multiples of the same species or morphs on their table. If you have got a male and female of each species or morph that is plenty enough to be on display on the table at once. Also prices written on boxes is being centred on by animal rights nuts as evidence of business activity and collected by them in photos. So, why not have a limit of £100 or maybe less for visual box pricing. Animals that the seller wants more than the limit should remain blank and can be discussed when interest is shown by a potential buyer.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> Snakes crammed into small plastic boxes and put up for sale for over £1,000
> 
> 
> World Animal Protection say the hundreds of reptiles on sale, which include ball python snakes, suffer unnecessary cruelty after being crammed into small plastic boxes and put up for sale
> ...


Well at least Richard Deadman got his quarter hour of fame with his animals getting a full photo feature in the illustrious Daily mirror. Got to a as per usual completely unbalanced report putting her active membership of the APA ahead of professional journalism.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

harry python said:


> Well at least Richard Deadman got his quarter hour of fame with his animals getting a full photo feature in the illustrious Daily mirror. Got to a as per usual completely unbalanced report putting her active membership of the APA ahead of professional journalism.


Factually incorrect too. 
You have to be a member to attend, both as a seller and buyer. So it is not a public place and therefore quite legal. 
It's a shame that the organisers haven't pushed that point across.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> Factually incorrect too.
> You have to be a member to attend, both as a seller and buyer. So it is not a public place and therefore quite legal.
> It's a shame that the organisers haven't pushed that point across.


Have you been to the show? Not too sure I would agree with you on the membership issue which I think may be an Achilles heel. 100% you have to be a member of a FBH affiliated club to sell, signing for that status on the table booking form, also a show of membership on the perimeter gate to get in, then signing another form as soon as you go through the building doors and finally another show of the membership card at the registration desk. However, there are two queues outside to get in. One queue for IHS and FBH affiliated club members who get in at 10.15hrs. One queue for others, non members, public or whatever you like to call them.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

harry python said:


> Have you been to the show? Not too sure I would agree with you on the membership issue which I think may be an Achilles heel. 100% you have to be a member of a FBH affiliated club to sell, signing for that status on the table booking form, also a show of membership on the perimeter gate to get in, then signing another form as soon as you go through the building doors and finally another show of the membership card at the registration desk. However, there are two queues outside to get in. One queue for IHS and FBH affiliated club members who get in at 10.15hrs. One queue for others, non members, public or whatever you like to call them.


Yes, I have. And to Kempton and Portsmouth.
Non members get a one day membership as part of the entry fee. Its not necessary at all, but I'm aware that at the IHS shows, that's what they do.
My post wasn't clear, so apologies. I wasn't saying that you have to be a member to attend, but that the IHS give you a days membership as part of the entry fee, and so technically there are then no members of the public, as everyone is a member even if its just for that day.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> Yes, I have. And to Kempton and Portsmouth.
> Non members get a one day membership as part of the entry fee. Its not necessary at all, but I'm aware that at the IHS shows, that's what they do.
> My post wasn't clear, so apologies. I wasn't saying that you have to be a member to attend, but that the IHS give you a days membership as part of the entry fee, and so technically there are then no members of the public, as everyone is a member even if its just for that day.


But is that really water tight as a method to claim the show is a private all members gig? Especially as nobody has filled in a form with their basic details entered. I appreciate club law is largely not formalised with scant legal judgements and rules basically what the members vote for but the powers that be at Guildford council seem to have come up with a different interpretation and stated rightly or wrongly that membership could not be purchased on the day. God knows where they came up with that, only thing I can think of is from gaming and casino club membership, where they don't want drunks rolling up and gambling their entire wealth away.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

harry python said:


> But is that really water tight as a method to claim the show is a private all members gig? Especially as nobody has filled in a form with their basic details entered. I appreciate club law is largely not formalised with scant legal judgements and rules basically what the members vote for but the powers that be at Guildford council seem to have come up with a different interpretation and stated rightly or wrongly that membership could not be purchased on the day. God knows where they came up with that, only thing I can think of is from gaming and casino club membership, where they don't want drunks rolling up and gambling their entire wealth away.


It doesn't need to be watertight.
Having had sight of Government guidance on the legislation, it is clear that under the current Animal Activites legislation, events such as Doncaster do NOT require licensing and do NOT fall within the legislation.
They are perfectly legal (and thats coming from me, having previously had a very strong view on this and have now taken a complete u-turn on my previous opinion, something I rarely do unless completely satisfied that I was wrong)


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## The1972 (Sep 10, 2021)

ian14 said:


> It doesn't need to be watertight.
> Having had sight of Government guidance on the legislation, it is clear that under the current Animal Activites legislation, events such as Doncaster do NOT require licensing and do NOT fall within the legislation.
> They are perfectly legal (and thats coming from me, having previously had a very strong view on this and have now taken a complete u-turn on my previous opinion, something I rarely do unless completely satisfied that I was wrong)


Hi Ian I agree when the facts change we can change our opinion's and views, what was once problematic with the current Legislation now isn't, theres no ambiguity now , a breeders meeting of the type we would like is now legal, the problem now is that because of lets call it historic actions of not just the Donny show organisers but the actions of others across the country have tainted our reputation to the point where no local authority will touch us with a barge pole, don't fall into the lazy trap of thinking a few loud mouth activists closed the shows because they didn't, sure they didn't help, but ultimately the blame is far and wide, We help close our own shows, we let obvious commercial breeders run rampant with tables containing 10s of thousands of pounds of reptiles for sale, aloud European importers in selling W/C reptiles, We played fast and loose with UK legislation thinking it was funny and a clever way to get our breeders meetings as big as possible , We wanted too many big shows, We lost sight that the original concept was for small meetings where a few local hobbyist sold a few surplus reptiles to fellow hobbyiest, Once upon a time it meant something to be a member of a group like the IHS, you got to meet like minded people sharing their passion, made great contacts, could share advice with each other, gain contacts and friends for life, Now to most people being a member of the IHS is only for a day to get into Donny, now that's gone, I think to future will be back to the future, lets hope people now join groups like the IHS for the right reasons , lets hope people actually turn up for meetings and who knows might there might be fellow herpers with real surplus reptiles to sell.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

@The1972 
An excellent post, and very well worded. I completely agree with you.
The legal guidance is clear, and avoids all the faults that you have raised from the bad old days.
I am, frankly, amazed that the IHS have failed to challenge the decision made by the council, as legally, they were doing nothing wrong.
Events put on to allow members of a society to sell surplus offspring from hobby breeding is perfectly legal.
Event rules have been carefully written to ensure compliance with the law.
Having been a very vocal critic of herp shows on here, for me to take a completely different view is a huge step and an acknowledgement that massive changes have been made.
There were problems before, as you rightly highlight, including a notorious German dealer whose tables were literally all wild caught animals. 
With very clear rules, and robust enforcement, such dealers will be eliminated from UK shows.
Whilst Donny has gone (I believe due to the IHS not having the backbone to argue their case), I am sure others will replace it.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> @The1972
> An excellent post, and very well worded. I completely agree with you.
> The legal guidance is clear, and avoids all the faults that you have raised from the bad old days.
> I am, frankly, amazed that the IHS have failed to challenge the decision made by the council, as legally, they were doing nothing wrong.
> ...


Yeah the legal guidance is clear until it is interpreted by individual local authorities who come up with very different conclusions. If I recall correctly the actual legislation set in law is less than specific on show requirements which then comes down to the published guidance where shows are mentioned, though it does not answer every aspect. Stafford are still quite happy for their bird show to go-ahead, then there is Guildford who we are led to believe require a show to be 100% private paid up in advance full membership entry. Re the IHS challenging the decision made by the council, what decision? The Doncaster racecourse is a private company and ultimately makes it's own executive decisions. The council can complain, threaten, bully, lobby etc, but the racecourse decides to take or refuse bookings. I doubt there is any formal record, or any order available from the council that would allow any challenge. Backbone to argue there case? What case, any case would be with Doncaster racecourse and must surely unwinnable as they are entitled to pick and choose who they allow on their manor.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Just to highlight, 

The IHS made a post on their Facebook page on Saturday asking for members of the community to send letters of complaint to them, which will all be compiled and presented to the council as part of their challenging of the decision. 

They are going back to the council to complain, as this appears to be a decision made by a small number of influenced councillors and likely to lose Doncaster up to £1million per year in revenue, from keepers staying at hotels, eating in restaurants, etc. 

However, they cannot sit back and hope the racecourse back tracks and allows them back in. They have a new venue lined up already, which will be announced in due course. 

Regarding the improvement of the shows, they have definitely done plenty to improve, even the Doncaster council licensing officers have reported at their contentment with the show. But as always, there will be more improvements that should be considered. 

I personally have my own ideas of what needs to be done, but I'd rather not discuss them on an open forum. Happy to discuss in PM though. Instead, I am seriously considering whether I should offer myself up as a committee member to raise these ideas, and hope some would be implemented. I feel like, I could just sit and bang my guns online, or I could actually do something about it. 

As mentioned above, I too hope that this wake up call leads to plenty more members joining up with either the IHS or another FBH Affiliated club, and brings back local meets which are few and far between these days.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Tarron said:


> Just to highlight,
> 
> The IHS made a post on their Facebook page on Saturday asking for members of the community to send letters of complaint to them, which will all be compiled and presented to the council as part of their challenging of the decision.
> 
> ...


Sorry I don't get this council blame angle. No doubt individual councillors have involvement. However, I get the feeling that apart from formal administrative contact with the civil servants in council departments there is nowt else. Unless parties to events and meetings between these rogue councillors and the racecourse are prepared to make statements there is no evidence. Quoted nasty councillors have simply played the 'House of cards,' dirty political tricks by cheering on and encouraging the APA and grand standing in the press. For instance has their ever been a full council meeting, debate and vote seeking to cancel the Donny show and instructing officials to take such action? This is all stand from under standard political stuff, as in the face of any challenge the prominent councillors in the issue will simply say Doncaster racecourse is a private company owned by Arena Racing Company who make their own independent executive decisions.


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## frogeyed (Nov 8, 2012)

Tarron said:


> Just to highlight,
> 
> The IHS made a post on their Facebook page on Saturday asking for members of the community to send letters of complaint to them, which will all be compiled and presented to the council as part of their challenging of the decision.
> 
> ...


Maybe we should take a leaf ( excuse the pun ) from the PSG ( Phasmid Study Group ) where their membership is a complete form filling, and even sponsorship, membership. Not a join for a day at the door membership.
The PSG have trice yearly breeders meetings where members exchange ideas, new ways, new species etc.they even exchange livestock and eggs for free on the proviso that the livestock/ eggs are not then resold on a commercial basis.
Small breeders groups, having small meetings and exchanging livestock in a non commercial way.

The way things used to be back in the 80's.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

The more I think about this the more I think that the only way to keep authorities of the back of a show is to make bonafide membership compulsory to enter the show. The current assertion of 1 day membership don't seem credible to me. For me filling a form in with name and address and attaching a fee seems to be the least requirement needed to define somebody as a member. Once everybody who attends is a member it is a private event, non public and casts aside any debate about it being a market or market stall. Additionally, there is nil entry to any local authority agent on official duties unless they get a warrant. It is a while back since we had the members only shows with poor attendance. Interest in the hobby and shows way exceeds the level it was previously and is I think it is now sufficient enough to have a membership rule only. Would add that fees could also lowered to half what they are now if you have twice as many members, resulting in the same annual income. Usually the case when this is mentioned it that is a huge admin task. that may be the case but if so time those wanting shows but not coming forward to help out changed their attitude.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Guys, even if an event was run as a private members show, and only accessible to "genuine" members rather than a daily membership attached to an entry ticket, do you think that would stop the anties trying to close it down? - I don't. They would still cite the same poor conditions that the reptiles are displayed in. Small tubs, no water bowels, some with no substrate or hide. It's that sort of practice that the anties use as ammunition to turn councils heads. When someone joins a forum or society like the IHS, or BHS they can be anyone, and I bet that at least one of the anti's have members infiltrating such groups, and as a member would be entitled to visit a private members show and could still report poor practices to the media...

Someone commented that the pictures they use were old, but then the reporter in the linked media article was seen standing next to a table full of tubs (looked like old Ice Cream tubs). All of which had no water bowels. OK most of us know how often a snake will be seen drinking, it's not like a dog or cat that will drink pints of water a day, but the public don't know that, and thus would see the lack of water provision as cruelty.

I have no suggestions of a way forward. Wherever and how the IHS hold its shows in future there will be the same lobbing by the anties, the same poor journalistic coverage in the media, and calls will be made for more restriction or control of what we keep. But we as a hobby must tidy up our own act, even if that means displaying less on a table due to larger tubs to include water provisions then that is what we should be looking at doing. Anyway, that's my 2p worth.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Malc said:


> *Guys, even if an event was run as a private members show, and only accessible to "genuine" members rather than a daily membership attached to an entry ticket, do you think that would stop the anties trying to close it down? - I don't.*
> 
> I have no suggestions of a way forward. Wherever and how the IHS hold its shows in future there will be the same lobbing by the anties, the same poor journalistic coverage in the media, and calls will be made for more restriction or control of what we keep. *But we as a hobby must tidy up our own act, even if that means displaying less on a table due to larger tubs to include water provisions then that is what we should be looking at doing.* Anyway, that's my 2p worth.


You're absolutely right, we will never be able to appease the Anti's. Their statements always start that the shows are illegal, when we know they are not. There's no cutting into that. We need to appeal to the general public overall, who let's be honest, won't understand how there is a difference to Reptiles and Cats, for example.

But, if we can at least show the general public, who would otherwise be ambivalent, that we are providing safe, humane methods of transport and display, not taking the piss and looking like a wholesale market, then the anti's will not get the support from anyone of influence.

Personally, I think more consideration needs to be put into the overall image of the wider show. We should have educational and informational displays, maybe live talks by professionals so its not just seen as a market, but a wider experience.

As I say, I have my thoughts on the matter and will see if I really want to go head first into that, and if it would be accepted. I'm well aware I may have more controversial opinions than others. But if people aren't willing to put their head above the parapet and try to help make improvements, then we might as well kiss the shows goodbye completely.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Tarron said:


> There's no cutting into that. We need to appeal to the general public overall, who let's be honest, won't understand how there is a difference to Reptiles and Cats, for example.
> 
> But, if we can at least show the general public, who would otherwise be ambivalent, that we are providing safe, humane methods of transport and display, not taking the piss and looking like a wholesale market, then the anti's will not get the support from anyone of influence.


But the problem is that the public perception of someone who keeps a house full of snake or lizards has been set by biased TV programs or other such media. The media often features (and I don't wish to offend those who fit the description) heavily tattooed individuals, often with multiple piercings, who are into heavy metal, and like nothing more than to take their pet Nile monitor for a ride on their Harley each weekend in all weathers... (as I said, apologies to any such individual that matches that physical description, I am not tarring all with the same brush). Or it's someone who keeps a 6' croc in a pond in his house... we've all seen such programs. Once such programs / or images are registered in the publics mind it's impossible to change it. In reality whilst this description may fit a lot of folk that keep reptiles, they are in reality really decent people who keep the reptiles in the ways that provide the best care and environments we can achieve. But keeping reptiles in what most deem as "ideal" ways, and by someone who may fit the description above, but may have degrees in a related science is not what makes for "entertaining" TV or media items. 

The public are a strange bunch, that are difficult to educate. The mirror reportedly has a daily circulation of around 350,000 copies, but then with facebook and other social media, the article showing reptiles in margarine tubs could be seen by millions, and again, it would be a hard time convincing them otherwise, after all they read it on Facebook so it must be true  

Taking this off topic slightly, you mentions dogs.... Look what happens when the media report on a dog attack on a child. They only need to mention the breed and everyone then thinks every other dog of the same breed is likely to kill them or their child. It's worse if they use a stock image and put up an image of a "similar" breed as they have no images of the actual breed, you know, lets stick an image of a staff up as we have no pit ball images... all staffies then get treated as nasty dangerous dogs, when in reality most are soft as sh1t, and its the jack russlle's that you really need to watch as they have real attitude !!

I respect you for wanting to redress the balance of things, and to want to get those who make the decision behind approving a show to understand what actually goes on... but like I said earlier, there are sectors of this hobby that needs addressing first, and until that's done then it's going to be a long uphill struggle, especially if you also want to convince the general public that there is a positive side to this hobby. You may not agree with my viewpoint, that's fine, as if we all agreed the forum would be a dull place with little discussion.

Malc,

PS - again, my sincere apologies to the character reference - My intention was not to offend those that fit that stereotypically appearance. I've experienced this first hand. When people I meet for the first time get to know I keep snakes the first thing they tend to utter is that I don't appear to be "the type of person" because I'm clean shaven, have no tatts or body piercings so never in a million years would have thought I have snakes in my house. The second being are they venomous !!!!, and when I say no they are constrictors, I get "ahh they crush you to death and swallow you whole "!!! - That's what we are dealing with


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## frogeyed (Nov 8, 2012)

Malc said:


> But the problem is that the public perception of someone who keeps a house full of snake or lizards has been set by biased TV programs or other such media. The media often features (and I don't wish to offend those who fit the description) heavily tattooed individuals, often with multiple piercings, who are into heavy metal, and like nothing more than to take their pet Nile monitor for a ride on their Harley each weekend in all weathers... (as I said, apologies to any such individual that matches that physical description, I am not tarring all with the same brush). Or it's someone who keeps a 6' croc in a pond in his house... we've all seen such programs. Once such programs / or images are registered in the publics mind it's impossible to change it. In reality whilst this description may fit a lot of folk that keep reptiles, they are in reality really decent people who keep the reptiles in the ways that provide the best care and environments we can achieve. But keeping reptiles in what most deem as "ideal" ways, and by someone who may fit the description above, but may have degrees in a related science is not what makes for "entertaining" TV or media items.
> 
> The public are a strange bunch, that are difficult to educate. The mirror reportedly has a daily circulation of around 350,000 copies, but then with facebook and other social media, the article showing reptiles in margarine tubs could be seen by millions, and again, it would be a hard time convincing them otherwise, after all they read it on Facebook so it must be true
> 
> ...


Regarding the exotic hobby, I think Joe public are split 50/50.

The ones that attend shows and know the score, and not too bothered about how the animals are displayed.

And the ones that don't attend shows, have no interest in exotics at all, and will always support the anties..

Also Malc, you are quite right.

I am an antie, I have filled in all my membership forms and am now a fully fledged member.

So I'm off to the next show to take some photos.

There you go !!


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Presentation that supports a journalists stance is always what the papers are looking for and can be charted all the way back to the first newspapers. The more sensational and emotive it is the better and the bigger the round of applause the journalist gets from the editor.

Leaving all this aside lets remember it is still a legal right to own, breed and sell reptiles in the UK. It is also by some type of format, private or quasi private meeting to hold reptile shows in the UK. Personally, I am getting fed up to the back teeth, that I have still got, at some of the antics of minority interest groups consisting of lay a bouts and people who have never had a serious hard graft job interfering and telling me what I am doing is wrong and I should stop doing it. Enough is enough and time somebody from the powers that be grew some testicles and laid the law down.

Now for all this enduring clap trap about box sizes on tables. Enclosures that confine animals for temporary periods is common practice across all species. i.e. A UK superstar race horse sent off to the Melbourne Gold cup is not booked into business class, rather confined to a crate for 24 hours without the ability to turnaround. The same for animals transported between zoos or between vets. The box sizes I have seen in current photos are quite suitable for the purpose and situation at shows.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Tarron said:


> I've not got a link at the moment, but will add one when I get home. However, I have just read an announcement by the IHS that June will be the last Breeders Meeting at the Doncaster Racecourse, and in Doncaster total.
> 
> The Racecourse have apparently been instructed not to renew the contract, and it appears they will not be. The APA have been pushing Doncaster Council, and have numerous Councillors and the Mayor on board, to remove shows, claiming them to be illegal, abusive and immoral.
> 
> ...


The IHS already have a new venue lined up and will tell us in time. Chris Newmans has already written a letter of complaint against the council member that was quoted siding with the APA.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

BenjaminBoaz said:


> The IHS already have a new venue lined up and will tell us in time. Chris Newmans has already written a letter of complaint against the council member that was quoted siding with the APA.


Don't see anybody taking much notice of any letters sent about a councillor siding with the APA. That is what you call politics.


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## The1972 (Sep 10, 2021)

BenjaminBoaz said:


> The IHS already have a new venue lined up and will tell us in time. Chris Newmans has already written a letter of complaint against the council member that was quoted siding with the APA.


Chris can write as many letters as he likes it won't do us any good, plus a councillor can side with anyone he likes, just because we don't agree with what others say doesn't mean a councillor can't agree with them, this is playground stuff ,Thing is some people are part of the problem , theres a few replies on here that show some are trying to fight last decades issues, good to hear about a possible new venue, as long as it doesn't fall under Doncaster local Authority's area then great, if it is then the IHS is wasting it's time because they won't let it happen.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

The1972 said:


> Chris can write as many letters as he likes it won't do us any good, plus a councillor can side with anyone he likes, just because we don't agree with what others say doesn't mean a councillor can't agree with them, this is playground stuff ,Thing is some people are part of the problem , theres a few replies on here that show some are trying to fight last decades issues, good to hear about a possible new venue, as long as it doesn't fall under Doncaster local Authority's area then great, if it is then the IHS is wasting it's time because they won't let it happen.


Hear what you are saying but Doncaster local authority or any other local authority is irrelevant as the holding of a non commercial reptile club breeders meeting for the sale of surplus breeding stock is, until we hear otherwise, a legal event. In the 20 odd years the IHS held shows in Doncaster the local authority have never been confident enough to challenge that position. The legality also seems strengthened by the guidance issued when the AAL was brought into play. In Donny and elsewhere, legal actions have been limited to prosecutions against individuals. Think I have already said this but the current cancelation has no formal involvement by Doncaster council. It is the executive business decision of Arena Racing who own or have control of the racecourse estate. 

I have also been looking into the issue of temporary/one day membership used by the IHS to give the show private members only status. At the same time that we are led to believe Guildford council insisted or inferred membership buying on the day of the show was not permissible. Seems to me that the IHS are perfectly within their rights to allow immediate on the day membership on account that there is no booze, entertainment, gambling, theatre, cinema, sex entertainment or any other licensed activity listed in the 2003 & 2010 Licensing Act taking place at the show. Delay (2 days) in the activation of a club membership only applies to a club event, premises etc when said club has licenses.


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## frogeyed (Nov 8, 2012)

harry python said:


> Hear what you are saying but Doncaster local authority or any other local authority is irrelevant as the holding of a non commercial reptile club breeders meeting for the sale of surplus breeding stock is, until we hear otherwise, a legal event. In the 20 odd years the IHS held shows in Doncaster the local authority have never been confident enough to challenge that position. The legality also seems strengthened by the guidance issued when the AAL was brought into play. In Donny and elsewhere, legal actions have been limited to prosecutions against individuals. Think I have already said this but the current cancelation has no formal involvement by Doncaster council. It is the executive business decision of Arena Racing who own or have control of the racecourse estate.
> 
> I have also been looking into the issue of temporary/one day membership used by the IHS to give the show private members only status. At the same time that we are led to believe Guildford council insisted or inferred membership buying on the day of the show was not permissible. Seems to me that the IHS are perfectly within their rights to allow immediate on the day membership on account that there is no booze, entertainment, gambling, theatre, cinema, sex entertainment or any other licensed activity listed in the 2003 & 2010 Licensing Act taking place at the show. Delay (2 days) in the activation of a club membership only applies to a club event, premises etc when said club has licenses.


Surely with vat registered companies selling dry goods, livestock etc. it's a commercial event.

Non commercial is amateur status only.


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## The1972 (Sep 10, 2021)

frogeyed said:


> Surely with vat registered companies selling dry goods, livestock etc. it's a commercial event.
> 
> Non commercial is amateur status only.


Good point


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## The1972 (Sep 10, 2021)

harry python said:


> Hear what you are saying but Doncaster local authority or any other local authority is irrelevant as the holding of a non commercial reptile club breeders meeting for the sale of surplus breeding stock is, until we hear otherwise, a legal event. In the 20 odd years the IHS held shows in Doncaster the local authority have never been confident enough to challenge that position. The legality also seems strengthened by the guidance issued when the AAL was brought into play. In Donny and elsewhere, legal actions have been limited to prosecutions against individuals. Think I have already said this but the current cancelation has no formal involvement by Doncaster council. It is the executive business decision of Arena Racing who own or have control of the racecourse estate.
> 
> I have also been looking into the issue of temporary/one day membership used by the IHS to give the show private members only status. At the same time that we are led to believe Guildford council insisted or inferred membership buying on the day of the show was not permissible. Seems to me that the IHS are perfectly within their rights to allow immediate on the day membership on account that there is no booze, entertainment, gambling, theatre, cinema, sex entertainment or any other licensed activity listed in the 2003 & 2010 Licensing Act taking place at the show. Delay (2 days) in the activation of a club membership only applies to a club event, premises etc when said club has licenses.


I understand your point but local authority licencing departments have as much power as they need to interpret the law how they see fit, if they say no, no it is, frustrating as it is that's the world we live in, I really think this is a dead end no matter how unfair we think it is , we collectively need to move on


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

The1972 said:


> I understand your point but local authority licencing departments have as much power as they need to interpret the law how they see fit, if they say no, no it is, frustrating as it is that's the world we live in, I really think this is a dead end no matter how unfair we think it is , we collectively need to move on


Licencing departments only have power if the event, function, premises comes under their jurisdiction. Reptile breeder meetings such as Doncaster in its present format does not require application or permission from any local authority licence department. Hence why off the council record individual councillors have threatened, coerced and cheer led the APA to pressurise the race course to not accept future bookings.


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## The1972 (Sep 10, 2021)

harry python said:


> Licencing departments only have power if the event, function, premises comes under their jurisdiction. Reptile breeder meetings such as Doncaster in its present format does not require application or permission from any local authority licence department. Hence why off the council record individual councillors have threatened, coerced and cheer led the APA to pressurise the race course to not accept future bookings.


Ok we beg to differ , I've once upon a time I use to work closely with 2 Local authority licence and Environment departments so I know how they work, these are professional employees, I don't except the consonance there seems to be that all our misfortune with shows is solely down to tiny group of loud mouth activists pressurising others to do their will, this is too lazy a view, a cartoon view , it's my view our conduct also plays a big part, I honestly believe that if we had taken action ourselves 15-20 years ago we would still have a few shows around the UK, the biggest stick the activists hit us with was the one day membership to gain entry, I honestly believe this was our achilles heel thought out the whole time, in my view it wasn't the clever slight of hand to get the public in but the one thing above all others that influenced whoever you like to blame, if it makes people feel better clinging to the myth that we were beyond approach and play the victim then fine, but you won't solve anything by not confronting truthfully how we got to this point


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

frogeyed said:


> Surely with vat registered companies selling dry goods, livestock etc. it's a commercial event.
> 
> Non commercial is amateur status only.


No business should be selling livestock there (invert sellers excepted, they're not covered by any legislation). 
So long as the dry goods sellers are only doing dry goods, I don't see an issue with that at a members show. The same occurs at Stafford bird show and others. If they were selling, I'd agree. 

The bigger issue to me is licensed breeders/shops arriving with livestock for show only. I wouldn't insinuate any of them are actually selling anything, but 

A. This doesn't look great. Antis could easily spin this to say under the table deals are being done. 

B. All those animals are being packed up for a day's drive, a days show and a days drive back (potentially) for no reason other than to show them off. This seems counter intuitive to welfare improvements.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Tarron said:


> No business should be selling livestock there (invert sellers excepted, they're not covered by any legislation).
> So long as the dry goods sellers are only doing dry goods, I don't see an issue with that at a members show. The same occurs at Stafford bird show and others. If they were selling, I'd agree.
> 
> The bigger issue to me is licensed breeders/shops arriving with livestock for show only. I wouldn't insinuate any of them are actually selling anything, but
> ...


And in which specific legislation does it state that a paid up member of a society, who also owns a pet shop, cannot sell livestock/surplus breeding animals or get his partner of friend to sell the same livestock? Society's/ clubs make up their own rules and as far as I understand it is the clubs own private membership rules that prevent some paid up members selling livestock. Shows are after all private meetings for members only with governance of those events in the hands of the club members.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

harry python said:


> And in which specific legislation does it state that a paid up member of a society, who also owns a pet shop, cannot sell livestock/surplus breeding animals or get his partner of friend to sell the same livestock? Society's/ clubs make up their own rules and as far as I understand it is the clubs own private membership rules that prevent some paid up members selling livestock. Shows are after all private meetings for members only with governance of those events in the hands of the club members.


The legislation refers to an offence for carrying on a business selling animals from a stall etc. A private event can still be a public place if the public can enter, even if paying an entry fee.
Having a licence to operate a pet shop would clearly indicate being a business.
To avoid any issue it is therefore wise to stipulate that holders of an Animal Activity Licence cannot sell live animals.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> The legislation refers to an offence for carrying on a business selling animals from a stall etc. A private event can still be a public place if the public can enter, even if paying an entry fee.
> Having a licence to operate a pet shop would clearly indicate being a business.
> To avoid any issue it is therefore wise to stipulate that holders of an Animal Activity Licence cannot sell live animals.


I hear what you are saying. However, a person with a active business also has a personal life outside of business hours in which they may be a member of a reptile club. Most clubs, at least well run clubs, have articles of association (rules) that preclude use of the club for ones own personal business benefit. Therefore, a person with a pet business and there are plenty in reptile clubs, attend club events in the capacity as a member of that club. A few years back Ray Hind had his Kimberlys available without VAT on account that they were his non commercial hobby project. Thus illustrating duality in which business people operate. 9-5 work is business and the rest is own personal time. A scheme that seemed acceptable to Her majesty's Custom and Revenue. As to private event or public place lets say at Doncaster. The event is most certainly a private event owing to the club rules that the club set. That being that the IHS have elected the rules by their legally constituted committee to grant temporary IHS membership to all show entrants. The IHS is a non proprietary club set up for members interests and fully entitled to set out rules for its own private events. Everybody who attends the IHS shows is by their set rules a member including people with pet businesses. It is the IHS rules that prohibit a bonafide IHS member with a AAL from selling personal hobby time produced livestock at shows and not UK law. As you say, 'avoid any issue', is probably at the heart of this stance as it would be extremely difficult and time consuming for the IHS to determine what is business related and what personal time related offspring.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

harry python said:


> I hear what you are saying. However, a person with a active business also has a personal life outside of business hours in which they may be a member of a reptile club. Most clubs, at least well run clubs, have articles of association (rules) that preclude use of the club for ones own personal business benefit. Therefore, a person with a pet business and there are plenty in reptile clubs, attend club events in the capacity as a member of that club. A few years back Ray Hind had his Kimberlys available without VAT on account that they were his non commercial hobby project. Thus illustrating duality in which business people operate. 9-5 work is business and the rest is own personal time. A scheme that seemed acceptable to Her majesty's Custom and Revenue. As to private event or public place lets say at Doncaster. The event is most certainly a private event owing to the club rules that the club set. That being that the IHS have elected the rules by their legally constituted committee to grant temporary IHS membership to all show entrants. The IHS is a non proprietary club set up for members interests and fully entitled to set out rules for its own private events. Everybody who attends the IHS shows is by their set rules a member including people with pet businesses. It is the IHS rules that prohibit a bonafide IHS member with a AAL from selling personal hobby time produced livestock at shows and not UK law. As you say, 'avoid any issue', is probably at the heart of this stance as it would be extremely difficult and time consuming for the IHS to determine what is business related and what personal time related offspring.


Yes, it is overall an IHS ruling to ensure the line between a hobbyist and a Commercial Seller isn't blurred. And given there are people that have been prosecuted for commercial sales at show, with more under investigation according to Doncaster Council, I think its a justified rule.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

At the end of the day the non-existence of a reptile show doesn't really matter. It doesn't really change the buying and selling of animals, that is still possible, just requires some travel. I would actually argue there not being a show is better, it means there's less for the antis to shout about and as others have said, a less stressful day for the animals.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

LiasisUK said:


> At the end of the day the non-existence of a reptile show doesn't really matter. It doesn't really change the buying and selling of animals, that is still possible, just requires some travel. I would actually argue there not being a show is better, it means there's less for the antis to shout about and as others have said, a less stressful day for the animals.


Yup despite the ups and downs of the economy I think it is likely that the number of pet reptile owners in the Uk will continue to rise upwards.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Tarron said:


> Yes, it is overall an IHS ruling to ensure the line between a hobbyist and a Commercial Seller isn't blurred. And given there are people that have been prosecuted for commercial sales at show, with more under investigation according to Doncaster Council, I think its a justified rule.


As far as I am aware only two people have been prosecuted with neither having Pet shop licences and the prosecution basing their case around them requiring one. If one of them had had a competent lawyer I doubt it would have ended as it did.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

harry python said:


> As far as I am aware only two people have been prosecuted with neither having Pet shop licences and the prosecution basing their case around them requiring one. If one of them had had a competent lawyer I doubt it would have ended as it did.


I think it is 2 prosecuted, and apparently there are investigations into a couple more.



LiasisUK said:


> At the end of the day the non-existence of a reptile show doesn't really matter. It doesn't really change the buying and selling of animals, that is still possible, just requires some travel. I would actually argue there not being a show is better, it means there's less for the antis to shout about and as others have said, a less stressful day for the animals.


I assume you're probably aware already, but Donny is continuing ahead at a different location, the SRAS show is ongoing, and now Kempton is back. So actually we have more shows than ever now. Of course, the lack of shows wouldn't stop the breeding and selling of animals, though it may make some of the bigger sellers at shows reconsider how many animals they breed each year (probably not a bad thing for some species).


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Tarron said:


> I assume you're probably aware already, but Donny is continuing ahead at a different location, the SRAS show is ongoing, and now Kempton is back. So actually we have more shows than ever now. Of course, the lack of shows wouldn't stop the breeding and selling of animals, though it may make some of the bigger sellers at shows reconsider how many animals they breed each year (probably not a bad thing for some species).


Thanks and yes I am fully aware of the status of all the shows, was more a comment on the fact that many people (mainly on Facebook) seem to be making a huge deal about this, when it is in reality not really a big problem.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

LiasisUK said:


> Thanks and yes I am fully aware of the status of all the shows, was more a comment on the fact that many people (mainly on Facebook) seem to be making a huge deal about this, when it is in reality not really a big problem.


I think you will find quite a lot of the regulars at the shows prefer to use it as their main outlet to sell of surplus rather than dealing with timewaster and allowing people they know nothing about to buy from their abodes.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

harry python said:


> I think you will find quite a lot of the regulars at the shows prefer to use it as their main outlet to sell of surplus rather than dealing with timewaster and allowing people they know nothing about to buy from their abodes.


Speaking as a regular theres an awful lot of timewasters at donny.

I also often don't let people meet at my home. There are other ways of doing things. 

But no worries, I get it.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I was never reliant on the shows to sell any surplus animal nor was I ever an avid show goer (I have been once to drop animal off and stayed for 30 minutes before leaving) so whether the shows continue or not doesn't directly impact me. Having said this, I appreciate that for others the shows are an important part of the hobby.

What gets me is people specifically breeding for the show - breeding to fill a table if you will.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

As per email from organiser last night the show booking has been cancelled by the racecourse and they are unwilling to reconsider their decision. So show announced to public on 30th April publicly cancelled 4 days later and probably earlier reading the email. Looks like the quickest counter offensive to date by the anti's.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Kempton show is now cancelled as well.

EDIT: apologies if this is being discussed already, I have some members on ignore.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

harry python said:


> Looks like the quickest counter offensive to date by the anti's.


Well they are bound to be watching various facebook groups and possibly this forum for anything remotely looking like a public show...


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

To be honest, if its been cancelled that quickly after being arranged and announced, I'd say that's a failing of the show organisers and FBH. They should be liaising with all agencies at the earliest point to explain the laws, mitigations and assurances for the shows to go ahead, then letting them know they are going to get X,Y and Z from animal rights groups, and getting an assurance from the authorities that the AR groups will be ignored.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Tarron said:


> To be honest, if its been cancelled that quickly after being arranged and announced, I'd say that's a failing of the show organisers and FBH. They should be liaising with all agencies at the earliest point to explain the laws, mitigations and assurances for the shows to go ahead, then letting them know they are going to get X,Y and Z from animal rights groups, and getting an assurance from the authorities that the AR groups will be ignored.


Not that I know for sure but I would imagine to comes down to contract law where both sides have a cooling off period where they can cancel with no liability. Was thinking this is the reason the IHS have not gone public with new venue/s yet as they are waiting until the cooling off period has passed.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Now 7 weeks since IHS announced no more race course shows and intention to find alternatives. Time is marching on toward the September show and would be nice to get an update on where we are with IHS shows for the rest of the year.
Next week, ahead of the June show, is usual time for sending out pre show letter so maybe we will find something useful future show wise in the communication.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Everybody ready for the final knees up at the racecourse this coming weekend?


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

Just coming up for the day, so will miss out on Saturday events.

Dont get too wasted


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I'll be heading up for Sunday only. Not got any real plans for anything though. Awaiting my supplier getting Lygodactylus conraui in for me. Hopefully handing over some O. jayakari to someone, they paid a deposit but haven't been in touch since.


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## macgro7 (12 mo ago)

harry python said:


> Thought something was amiss for a while as regards future shows, as the show calendar on the IHS website, normally with 2 years of show dates, has not been amended. I keep an eye on it to book up hotels 12 months in advance. Best cancel my Doncaster bookings for September and November. Sadly, if anybody has got a cheap pay up front hotel for those dates they gunna lose their money. Agricultural, agricultural and agricultural sites, showgrounds and areas, where they don't pander to the animal rights nuts, are probably best place to go to find a new venue. That said doubt it will be easy finding a new venue at such short notice as most places are usually booked up a year or more in advance.


Agricultural markets are under attack from these kind of utters too.
I have been going to Melton Mowbray cattle market for years and recently its gone rrally bad. Due to new regulations and rspca presence every week, they decided to stop selling pets all together (budgies, canaries, ferrets, guinea pigs and rabbits mostly), and only sell "animals for eating" I.e. poultry (mostly ornamental pet chickens and ducks), that has been stopped as well since November! Because of bird flu. The whole town is dead because the weekly cattle market has hardly any customers (only big farmers who buy ad sell cows and sheep)


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

macgro7 said:


> Agricultural markets are under attack from these kind of utters too.
> I have been going to Melton Mowbray cattle market for years and recently its gone rrally bad. Due to new regulations and rspca presence every week, they decided to stop selling pets all together (budgies, canaries, ferrets, guinea pigs and rabbits mostly), and only sell "animals for eating" I.e. poultry (mostly ornamental pet chickens and ducks), that has been stopped as well since November! Because of bird flu. The whole town is dead because the weekly cattle market has hardly any customers (only big farmers who buy ad sell cows and sheep)


Still plenty of agricultural county showgrounds going strong and operated by agricultural orientated people who don't pander to the animal rights nut jobs. As to Melton Mowbray situation, and from the description you give, which sounds like an unlicensed gathering outside of a recognised hobbyist society, I am not surprised it has stopped selling pets.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Tarron said:


> To be honest, if its been cancelled that quickly after being arranged and announced, I'd say that's a failing of the show organisers and FBH. They should be liaising with all agencies at the earliest point to explain the laws, mitigations and assurances for the shows to go ahead, then letting them know they are going to get X,Y and Z from animal rights groups, and getting an assurance from the authorities that the AR groups will be ignored.


ERAC tried all that at their last show, at Barleylands in Billericay- the authorities still caved in to the APA & swore never to agree to any more reptile shows there afterward.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

wilkinss77 said:


> ERAC tried all that at their last show, at Barleylands in Billericay- the authorities still caved in to the APA & swore never to agree to any more reptile shows there afterward.


The venue at Billericay was private ownership and the ultimate decision to permit or not permit further shows laid with the owner. While the local authority may have given negative advice on legality, they were clearly not sufficiently confident in their own negative advice to back it up by issuing formal papers to stop the event going ahead. But no doubt the intervention of the local authority put the owner off. As to why ERAC have not been active in putting on shows recently, their dwindling members tell me that they are mostly way past retirement age and have too few members to share out the workload of putting on a show.


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