# Enigma Pathology Report



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Ok, finally have it published up on our website

PS Geckos - The Enigma Morph


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

this only goes towards proving me right. normal leos and to be fair many of the morphs are absolutely fine. but people are blinkered by the dollar sign and will attempt to prove out any unusual trait if it seems lucrative regardless of the animals wellbeing.

sad reading but very informative, thanks for sharing.


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

i think people overreact to the enigma issue, yes there can be problems in some but also many more are fine especially it seems outcrosses.

thanks for posting this up as it goes some way towards finding out what the problem is and maybe eliminating it one day rather than ignoring it and forgetting this morph like some people think we should do.

I very much doubt that everyone involved is in it for money alone otherwise why would they fork out to investigate problems in some young? i think you are generalising moshpitviper and not looking at all the facts, this was posted to enlighted, not damn this morph.


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Found this rather interesting, I don't have Gecko's not my sort of animal.

With the lack of mineralization I would suspect they were unable to metabolise any of the vitamin's and minerals required to calcify the bones. 

That being the case I do know from experience when a human has a calcium deficiency they suffer neurologial problems including falls, behavioural changes etc. My step gran and a friend both had serious issues with calcium deficiencies and we knew when they were in trouble by their behavour. Sometimes they would just stare into space almost like an absense type seizure, suffer dizzy spells and at its worst become very confused and aggressive.


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

very sad for those three leo's. but looking on the site your others look well ps gecko's : victory: i just think that people have to realise that the findings don't apply to all of the enigma morph overall.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

it might of been good to submit a "fine" enigma as like a control.
Just a thought...


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

wow, that's interesting reading, the lack of bone calcification is not what i was expecting at all, it makes me wonder though, that all leopard gecko's in captivity could suffer from low rates of bone mineralisation? if they can't utilise the calcium that we as keepers supply them with because of a lack of other crucial vitamins such as D3? this sugests that uv light might be benaficial to enigmas (and other morphs too) well done pete and sarah for taking the initiative along with nick lamb, to actualy do something to help the enigma morph, instead of just talking about doing something,

i noticed a few times with my male enigma that when i hold him, if i have to restrain him he sort of cracks his joints when he struggles sugesting that he has , at best loose joints and at worst, who knows!

out of curiosity, who on here has a first generation enigma? as arthritus could be a major concirn for aeging enigmas


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Moshpitviper said:


> this only goes towards proving me right. normal leos and to be fair many of the morphs are absolutely fine. but people are blinkered by the dollar sign and will attempt to prove out any unusual trait if it seems lucrative regardless of the animals wellbeing.
> 
> sad reading but very informative, thanks for sharing.


 
Totally agree, I really dont understand why these poor geckos continue to be bred when the breeders know that the offspring has a high chance of being disabled .


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

wohic said:


> Totally agree, I really dont understand why these poor geckos continue to be bred when the breeders know that the offspring has a high chance of being disabled .


 
HI all,

One big word money, to me any breeder that found out they were breeding something that had a good chance of being disabled, I don't think they have their animals welfare at heart, I think the above may be creeping in.

The report makes intresting reading thanks for posting it, but I stand by what I say above.

Some snakes are bred with problems too.

slither61:snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

The problem I forsee is that next year the amount of enigmas on sale will be huge and not all will hold back dodgy variants.

It could get messy.


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## geckogirl_ (Jun 23, 2008)

this is a thread l'd been waiting for, and l didn't expect the result. A big thankyou to ps geckos and the ark for all they have done :2thumb:


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

interesting read - any explanation for the fatty livers?


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

gtm said:


> interesting read - any explanation for the fatty livers?


Liver, only found in one of the geckos, (#003) and it appears to be the older female (as the path report has given lengths of all three geckos)
That would've been Ark's, so you will have to ask them i'm afraid.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

gtm said:


> interesting read - any explanation for the fatty livers?


on a us forum a guy who appears to be a doctor or vet sugested that the lack of calcium in the bones is down to a liver dysfunction , the hepatic ducts which supply the gallbladder to be specific, this liver dysfunction causes a number of symptoms including the liver having fatty deposits, and severe nausea , there are supposedly various minerals that can aleiveate symptoms including magnesium and vitamin b, as well as fish oil, so we need to find a method of getting our enigmas to take a spoon full of cod liver oil with their bannana gut loaded mealworms, the thread in question is located here First Enigma Pathology Report - GeckoForums.net so you can make up your own minds


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

wohic said:


> Totally agree, I really dont understand why these poor geckos continue to be bred when the breeders know that the offspring has a high chance of being disabled .


 
cant agree more.. this outcrossing suggestion is ridiculous also wherer is the scientific proof this will 100% work.. and why risk it thats my worry... the ONLY reason to continue to RISK is obvious now..

IF after this report people keep breeding enigmas without KNOWING 100% that they are safe... and all their excuse is.. BUT THEY SEEM OR LOOK OK.. seeming is not a repsonsible outlook.. MAYBE is not a safe way to breed when health problems are in the mix

I will have lost ALL respect for each and every one of them if they continue to breed now they know there is a genuine issue which can cause problems an issue that MAY SEEM gone visually with outcrossing but cannot be PROVEN and wasnt this what the pathology reports were about PROOF.. frankly there needs to be PROOF these issues can be 100% eradicated from outcrossing IF this cant be proven why continue... 

WHY???

am i being over passionate... maybe but for all the tea in china and money in the world I wouldnt breed a morph i thought had ONE SNIFF or incling of an issue!!

How can any caring reptile owner say..

MAYBE if I outcross it MIGHT be ok
MAYBE if I keep them to 4months old with no signs showing its fair


MAYBE is NOT good enough... if an animal has a proven issue.. then STOP BREEDING

otherwise expect NO respect from the people in the reptile community that care more about animal health than colour


Thank you a million times over for releasing this report and findings.. at least NOW the breeders and this morph can be judged in a fair light with ACTUAL facts


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## reef (Jan 4, 2008)

sparkle said:


> cant agree more.. this outcrossing suggestion is ridiculous also wherer is the scientific proof this will 100% work.. and why risk it thats my worry... the ONLY reason to continue to RISK is obvious now..
> 
> IF after this report people keep breeding enigmas without KNOWING 100% that they are safe... and all their excuse is.. BUT THEY SEEM OR LOOK OK.. seeming is not a repsonsible outlook.. MAYBE is not a safe way to breed when health problems are in the mix
> 
> ...




well said you !!!!! brilliantly put


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

For us, this breeding season was in full swing when the Enigma issues really came into the lime light.
We have and always said we would not breed until confirmed what the hell is going on with these animals - and that is what we will do.
Ok, so this will leave us nothing to research on, but luckily we have 2 big breeders on side (here & US) that are also running tests, bloods, more necropsies, ocular & neurological.
We also put the link to the Path report onto the US site, i'm afraid to say but the guys in the US are so much more proactive and positive in suggestions than the majority of the UK herpers. 

First Enigma Pathology Report - GeckoForums.net

There was some fantastic feedback from someone (Baoh) who really knows there stuff about which specific tests to run - See this is what we want, not the same old crap been churned up again and again.

All we wanted to achieve was the answers, truthful, factual answers, not a good excuse to continue breeding. If it were about money, we wouldn't of started this, we would've like others are doing, buried our head and kept preaching about outcrossing. It would'nt bother us one bit about not breeding them.


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

sparkle said:


> cant agree more.. this outcrossing suggestion is ridiculous also wherer is the scientific proof this will 100% work.. and why risk it thats my worry... the ONLY reason to continue to RISK is obvious now..
> 
> IF after this report people keep breeding enigmas without KNOWING 100% that they are safe... and all their excuse is.. BUT THEY SEEM OR LOOK OK.. seeming is not a repsonsible outlook.. MAYBE is not a safe way to breed when health problems are in the mix
> 
> ...


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Couldn't agree more!

We claim to be a nation of animal lovers. In reality, as a species we're sick. This sort of thing happens every day (particularly with dogs) and it really needs to stop.

I'm not going to name and shame, but I have personally seen an enigma juvi for sale that was turning around, and around, and around and stargazing, and the breeder wanted nearly £300 for her....How can ANYONE sit back and think "oh its fine, its pretty, somewone'll buy it."

Honestly! Dont get me wrong I see the beauty in many morphs, but what the hell is wrong with a "normal" leo?? Jesus christ if we inbred our children to make them prettier to look at there'd be an uproar! I dont see what difference this makes at all, leo, dog or human.

This needs to stop, end of.


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

spider_duck said:


> :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
> 
> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> ...


We agree!

We went to Crystal Palace Reptiles yesterday, and there it was a Red eye enigma, circling and for sale! there were several others as well.


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## spider_duck (Feb 25, 2008)

PSGeckos said:


> We agree!
> 
> We went to Crystal Palace Reptiles yesterday, and there it was a Red eye enigma, circling and for sale! there were several others as well.


The one I saw was at a recent show...I cried my eyes out :'(

All animals are priceless regardless of their morph. This needs to stop :'(


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

boywonder said:


> on a us forum a guy who appears to be a doctor or vet sugested that the lack of calcium in the bones is down to a liver dysfunction , the hepatic ducts which supply the gallbladder to be specific, this liver dysfunction causes a number of symptoms including the liver having fatty deposits, and severe nausea , there are supposedly various minerals that can aleiveate symptoms including magnesium and vitamin b, as well as fish oil, so we need to find a method of getting our enigmas to take a spoon full of cod liver oil with their bannana gut loaded mealworms, the thread in question is located here First Enigma Pathology Report - GeckoForums.net so you can make up your own minds


 
Yes - with tortoises fatty liver is indicative of MBD


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

boywonder said:


> on a us forum a guy who appears to be a doctor or vet sugested that the lack of calcium in the bones is down to a liver dysfunction , the hepatic ducts which supply the gallbladder to be specific, this liver dysfunction causes a number of symptoms including the liver having fatty deposits, and severe nausea , there are supposedly various minerals that can aleiveate symptoms including magnesium and vitamin b, as well as fish oil, so we need to find a method of getting our enigmas to take a spoon full of cod liver oil with their *bannana gut loaded mealworms*, the thread in question is located here First Enigma Pathology Report - GeckoForums.net so you can make up your own minds


I dont know about that I dont use banana to gut load any of my mealies because of the potassium as i have read it can cause kidney failure in leos. But Gazz did mention feeding insects that are natrally high in calcium silkworms/phoenix worms/butter worms, I dont know how easy they are to get a hold of here but we are gonna try and order some for our enigma.

Anyone know of any sites you can order these from??


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

wohic said:


> Totally agree, I really dont understand why these poor geckos continue to be bred when the breeders know that the offspring has a high chance of being disabled .


Couldn't agree more with yourself and MoshPitViper, Wohic. I find it vile, but that's my own personal opinion. 

My favourites will always be the wild forms in all their natural beauty.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Alex M said:


> Couldn't agree more with yourself and MoshPitViper, Wohic. I find it vile, but that's my own personal opinion.
> 
> My favourites will always be the wild forms in all their natural beauty.


Sorry if that seemed a bit harsh folks, it's not i don't appreciate that people like the look of them, that's fine, it's just the growing amount of people that seem to be in it purely for the money side rather than the love of the reptiles themselves, and when that leads to morphs being produced that compromises their health i believe that's taking it way too far (and should infact be banned perhaps).


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

The problem is, as stated, that SOME breeders see the £ signs when new morphs come around, and ignore potential health issues. Noone will stop the breeding of enigmas (we ourselves are guilty as we have 2), but more contribution to the work like PSGeckos and Ark have had carried out could help solve the problem.


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