# Writing Care Sheets - enclosure size



## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

I am curious, I must have read hundreds of caresheets, about different things, they're all different, however they all recommend certain things, and usually state a minimum enclosure size. Obviously. 

Now my point is, how is this minimum size established? These are wild animals, even if they are the 100th generation captive, they are still not domestic pets, so how is this figure calculated.

Now lets take snakes as an example an often quoted minimum is front+side=snake length. This same minimum is quoted for active species or ones that just sit like a big, fat, blob! Why is this? This advice is probably wonderfully suitable for some snake species, why has it spilled over into others? And why are giant species apparently exempt from the same advice?!

At the other end of the scale is the "too big enclosure" party, for this example, I would like to use crested geckos - so as not to make the lizardy folk feel left out. I have recently seen (and commented on) a thread where someone is concerned that their 3g baby crestie isn't eating, kept in a 30x30x45 exo terra, and asking if this is too big. I commented saying words to the effect of "there is no such thing as too big enclosures, only not enough hiding places, nothing will offer as much space as their wild counterparts have" I commented that if food is always offered in a consistent place, then the gecko will learn the feeding place, remember it, and use it! I kept a 5g baby in a 45x45x60 with no troubles, so I am sure that 30x30x45 will not be the problem. Apparently (according to this thread anyway) "Everyone upgrades the enclosure size as the crestie grows, and she should get a faunarium until the gecko is bigger." 

To me, I just can't get my head around this logic except in a commercial way - as a shop if I can sell you 3 enclosures for the same animal then I am laughing all the way to the bank. If it is a breeder then I can boast of my individually housed animals, but still easily fit a lot in. How do these thing become the accepted practise? Is it because everyone looks at caresheets and ignores the wild, is it for commercial reasons (smallest enclosure that animal breeds in + as many as possible for the space = maximum babies and increased morph potential) or is it for some other reason?

And now back to my point, I would love to know how YOU decide how much space your animals require, maximum and minimum, do you trial and error various sizes and wait to see how the animal reacts, or do you follow caresheets, or simply get the biggest suitable viv that you can afford?

As for me...My animals are kept in the biggest viv that I can afford, I feel that bigger is definitely better, that way I can handle them less, so chemicals on my skin do not damage them, but they still get the exercise they require. I feed my lizards as much live food as possible, and my snakes sporadically to avoid obesity. These are my pets, I care about the individuals not how much money they can earn me, so I give them what I feel is the best possible life that I can.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

There is often no logic to it.

New animal welfare rules coming in are now following the ridiculous length of the animal rule. I have just been informed by my council that under the new animal welfare law all our lizard enclosures will have to be 3x the length of the lizard. Here's the funny part: Doesn't matter if it's a sedentary or active lizard, it doesn't even matter if it's an arboreal lizard or what the depth or height of the viv is, just the almighty length rule that some special person (I won't say they're name here because I'll get yelled at) put forward.

In short there is no real logic, only opinion, and that can be extremely varied. If anyone is writing a caresheet I would not recommend doing it on a species they have not had personal experience with. 

If you do have experience with them then it's all based on that - You are putting forth your knowledge and experience as a guide to others - and that's all you can do. Use a combination of your experience and your common sense and what you consider to be appropriate. People will decide whether to trust you or not... but there will always be someone who doesn't agree.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

That's bonkers! I've not heard the 3x longer than lizard advice before - love to see that applied to my micro geckos! I have 12 in a 2ft*2ft, I know that that is enormous but do I have to line them up to get the 3x longer than the 12 of them...or should I pop all 12 into something 15cm long?! Gah I hate these guidelines!!!!

I think relative to the size of the animal is important, but probably more important should be to do with controlling their temperature gradients. A lot of smaller enclosure sizes make it so difficult to control the cool end!


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

Athravan said:


> There is often no logic to it.
> 
> New animal welfare rules coming in are now following the ridiculous length of the animal rule. I have just been informed by my council that under the new animal welfare law all our lizard enclosures will have to be 3x the length of the lizard. Here's the funny part: Doesn't matter if it's a sedentary or active lizard, it doesn't even matter if it's an arboreal lizard or what the depth or height of the viv is, just the almighty length rule that some special person (I won't say they're name here because I'll get yelled at) put forward.
> 
> ...


Can you give me some details on this new law,or a link.As if true it will effect 1000s of keepers


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

nelly1 said:


> Can you give me some details on this new law,or a link.As if true it will effect 1000s of keepers


I'm afraid I can't. I haven't been given any paperwork. It's not a new law, it will (apparently) been an updated version of the Animal Welfare Act (2006). There is confirmation that the AWA Is changing for 2015/2016 but I can't find any record of the new document online yet.

I was told it is coming into effect next year and we needed to consider increasing the sizes of a couple of our enclosures before our inspection for 2016. This is by a very well respected veterinarian who is also in charge of pet shop licenses in our area. He has been warning us that the changes were due for around 3 years so it is not really a shock, and confirmed which reptile specialist had been consulted on it. We haven't seen anything official about it so it's just a waiting game from our perspective.

I seriously doubt they will be enforced for private users. It is far more likely to be targeted at clamping down on small enclosures used in pet shops but it's not entirely logical when applied to arboreal lizards and when it takes into account length, but not usable space on the whole. Perhaps when it actually comes in it will be more sensible than the way it was described to us.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

I hope that for arboreal species the "length" is actually considered to be the height, however, as long as it is wider than it is tall it might not be so bad. I expect it is more to clamp down on large scale breeding and cramming in as much as possible rather than the more temporary condition in shops- although that will be a byproduct


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

Athravan said:


> I'm afraid I can't. I haven't been given any paperwork. It's not a new law, it will (apparently) been an updated version of the Animal Welfare Act (2006). There is confirmation that the AWA Is changing for 2015/2016 but I can't find any record of the new document online yet.
> 
> I was told it is coming into effect next year and we needed to consider increasing the sizes of a couple of our enclosures before our inspection for 2016. This is by a very well respected veterinarian who is also in charge of pet shop licenses in our area. He has been warning us that the changes were due for around 3 years so it is not really a shock, and confirmed which reptile specialist had been consulted on it. We haven't seen anything official about it so it's just a waiting game from our perspective.
> 
> I seriously doubt they will be enforced for private users. It is far more likely to be targeted at clamping down on small enclosures used in pet shops but it's not entirely logical when applied to arboreal lizards and when it takes into account length, but not usable space on the whole. Perhaps when it actually comes in it will be more sensible than the way it was described to us.


Thank you
Are you sure its not just a recommendation by some local authority's?
I bet i can guess who was involved


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Its not law, ask the vet for written confirmation and see what he comes up with:whistling2: There were going to be recommendations but these were unworkable, especially with the big snakes.


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

colinm said:


> Its not law, ask the vet for written confirmation and see what he comes up with:whistling2: There were going to be recommendations but these were unworkable, especially with the big snakes.


thought as much


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

colinm said:


> Its not law, ask the vet for written confirmation and see what he comes up with:whistling2: There were going to be recommendations but these were unworkable, especially with the big snakes.


I'll ask at our next inspection, but that's not for another year. He specifically said lizards though, not snakes.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I know that you said it was for lizards but if you think about any legislation would cover all groups of reptiles not just lizards.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

So over a year on, just wondered if anyone else has anything to add to this? I still find it crazy/bizarre and fascinating! I also find it interesting how people bring up the giant snakes as if it's ok to cram a massive snake into a tiny space because their house isn't big enough for more space...OR if you don't have the space, don't get the snake?! 

Ps. No personal digs intended. I saw a picture the other day of a retic breeder that made me feel so sorry for the snakes - even if they were bigger than what the royals had...did not make it ok!!!


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

clumsyoaf said:


> So over a year on, just wondered if anyone else has anything to add to this? I still find it crazy/bizarre and fascinating! I also find it interesting how people bring up the giant snakes as if it's ok to cram a massive snake into a tiny space because their house isn't big enough for more space...OR if you don't have the space, don't get the snake?!
> 
> Ps. No personal digs intended. I saw a picture the other day of a retic breeder that made me feel so sorry for the snakes - even if they were bigger than what the royals had...did not make it ok!!!


I am unaware of any change to the AWA 2006 that is so prescriptive that it gives legal minimum enclosure sizes. In fact I'm not aware of any updates to the law since it was passed.

I use the Act quite frequently in my work, in fact only a couple of days ago I was with the CPS regarding a current case, and no mention of minimum housing dimensions was present in the legislation.

Is such a draconian change needed? I would argue not. The law is there already. And on top of that, why would lizards be specifically targeted for extra protection??

There was mention about a "reptile specialist" being consumed. I bet that was Clifford Warwick. It sounds to me that a council have been fooled into believing some nonsense, taken it as fact, and then passed on this disbelief.

The FACT is, the AWA has not been amended in the way they said it would be.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm talking about guidelines not legislation. But thank you for your input. My point is specifically "give a snake its length in 2 sides" or the "3x length of lizard" stated before. Where have these come from, why does my Royal who rarely leaves his hide get (according to this guide) relatively the same amount of space as my hognose who is massively active, logic says that the hognose should have more (not the Royal less in my opinion) does that make sense to you?

In my opinion as a hobbiest who wants to provide the best for my animals, bigger the better when it comes to enclosures, why shouldn't I keep a tiny baby chameleon in the 2x2x4ft Viv that will be his adult home?! So snakes do fine in racks, they eat, they grow, given the chance they reproduce. Is it good for them? Would more space and stimulation be better? 

I am also kind of not just talking about reptiles. Just look at hamsters, rabbits etc (I saw the "3 hop" rule for rabbit cage size in a pet shop yesterday) so all animals have these recommended things that seem to be plucked from nowhere lol

Edited to add: for snakes I believe in observation. My male Royal has a 4ftx2ft Viv, he uses all the space that he has and he seems healthy, I would consider giving him more space, never less. My very very tiny hognose who came to me as a non feeder and very stunted at 5 years old, is about 18inches long and has a 2ft x2ft. She makes burrows throughout the substrate but doesn't use the things I've given her to climb, I would consider giving her less height but not less floor, although there is no point reducing the height for her! Lizards it's the same. I now feel that a 45x45x60 exo terra is totally unsuited to an adult Crestie and following my observations they benefit from much more space and living in a colony. This is an ongoing "experiment" but after 18 months I have some of the healthiest cresties that I know, they're lean, they're fit and wow do they bounce! I have seen jumps far larger than the exo terras that I used to use!


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

I am not really clear where the problem lies, if you want to provide a bigger enclosure than the quoted minimum requirement, just do it. care sheets are not based in fact and they are based in opinion. also many commonly used care sheets were written years ago and thinking has changed, which is as it should be. As a keeper I used care sheets when I first started and very quickly learned that they often contradict each other, so what should I follow. simple really I developed my own processes and preferences based on my observation of the animals. care sheets are basic guides not rules. Minimum enclosure sizes are opinion based, hopefully educated opinion, but opinion none the less.

beardies are a classic example 4x2x2, don't used sand, bone dry, no water - standard care sheet

5x2x2.5- 10 inches of loose substrate, humid areas, 145 degrees at the basking spot, live plants. that's my version

some people will agree some won't - that's it


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