# The Biggest Crime of All



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Apathy is a Crime - Don't Be Found Guilty!
Don't Prosecute the Innocent with your Guilt!


I have a question for societies............................

..................................And for keepers.

Why the no show of political issues properly on your websites?

With all that is currently going on especially with the European Protected Species legislation impending with a close down on grace on the 21st November 2007.

What are you Societies doing to publicise support for this issue?

I am asking you straight and l sure as hell would like to know why the no show?

Irrelevant to whether you are affiliated or 'associated' to a political logo that has a voice - you are making no headway with keeping your members in the dark! You are supplying them with a service when you charge them a membership - where is the supply?

Enough, you must not only show your affiliation loyalty but you must also show your members that you do care about their hobbies.

Advertise this feature within your websites, and perhaps you may find that this is what potential members want to see.

OY! You! Society WAKE UP!!

And to the keepers - please stop pretending that this does not affect you.
Stop thinking if l dont not speak up it will not affect me.
Stop thinking none of this affects you.

News on the street is simple - It all affects, you, me and them.
Who is them......................?
Your animals. Those species that you go to great lengths to talk about. Show them that you care.
Do it for them, do something for your passion, do something for your hobby.................
......................Above all

DO SOMETHING POSITIVE

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

99% of keepers are private individuals with no websites. if you want to motivate this tiny minority, the ones with websites, then contact them directly as nearly all have ways availible for people to get hold of them. as for keepers, most are very private people. aproaching them bugles and tamborines is not the way. on a forum, such as this it may be better to read peoples posts and decide by their mindset if they would be receptive to your quest. being proactive, no, militant, is an affront to some. you can't rally passive people. but you can encourage them to put their thoughts and words to use. this might be a more productive approach. i, myself, don't go out in public and show off my snakes. that's not me. i don't want the attention. many, many people here are the same way. they keep certain things because they love them. they don't care about what others think. sure, they are concerned about rumors and changes that may affect them, but they will never go ballistic. if they had that personality, they would be poor keepers of their charges. you seem to be working hard at your goals and that is to be admired, but go the extra mile and talk to each, individual keeper and maybe motivate them. one vote at a time. you can't do things en masse. maybe with other groups, but this group is as diverse as the animals they keep.


in no way was i speaking FOR this forum. i was speaking as an individual who's voice should be heard... the very thing you are fighting for.


thanks friend,

HABU:smile:


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i just read your web site you provided. you sir, are a fraud! only trying to garner the support of hobbyist to boost your numbers. you represent dealers and importers! that's where the money is... isn't it? ive kept snakes for almost 40 years! don't tell me i don't know what a rat smells like. anyway, moderators, penalize however you see fit or just ban me. because this guy refers to it all as the "industry"! and he /she pretends to be toward the left. who pays you? we'll see how many years you are here. i know, i'm american and this doesn't affect me but i say something smells fishy to me.


if i am wrong, i will run to the people i have commented on as i am a man of honor and as this i also have to voice my opinion.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*One fellow to another*

Hi Habu, 

The thread is pre dom aimed at the Societies.

However, keepers have a duty of responsibility to be alert to what is affecting their hobbies, simple.

Yes, my approach will affront some and perhaps offend others, perhaps.

I can beat around the bush, or l can be direct and speak honestly.

Habu l am not a reptile keeper - l am just a keeper, and l have sensed the alert to this hobby industry for three years plus, so l am a novice.

But a body can not continue to be sitting pretty thinking that there are no problems and that they can approach this in their own time.

As for the private and individual aspect, yes that too is now in hand.

But as a fellow keeper, your points have been noted and thankyou for your input.

Regards Rory


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Fraud??*

I am not a fraud l assure you Sir.

Increase my numbers? Please explain yourself.

Yes l am a consultant that supports private keepers, and at which point during any of my writings have l never stated that l support the industry?

Yes l have a business within this industry, and as much to lose as a keeper of forty years. Or if business loses is that acceptable? Really?


But excuse me, as a keeper of forty years then where is the voice for you?

No different to a British Keeper, where is their voice?

Who pays me?

No one pays me, l am a private business working to a client base. Plus l am not in the main a reptile seller l am a mammal seller.

This has nothing to do with my increasing numbers nor financial support.

And l too am an American, so don't quote to me right and wrong Habu.

However, this is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i respect the calmness of your post. that certainly affects my judgment of you. but honestly, i would never trust you or your cryptic organization as far as i can throw you all. i may be completely wrong.....i would hope so, but one has to understand that i have an inherant distrust of... and i will say it because i think it applies,.. a zealot. and, as you say, youn are not even a keeper? makes me wonder where your motivation comes from!
thank you for entertaining my opinion and being civil.

habu


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*..*

Habu, 

I am a mammal keeper of 16 years plus, my other half is a reptile keeper of some twenty five years.

A Zealot!

Last Week the Anti Christ, and now this week a Zealot. Marvelous.

If you wish to know where my motivation inspires from - simple - the fact is as a non reptile keeper but a mammal keeper, l wish for their to be a future for children, with animals.

It would be nice to think in twenty years that there was still a hobby, that there was still an industry.

No l will not back down from my beliefs, nor my motivations, nor the motor that l gunn every morning getting up.

Nor back down from how l approach this subject.

Again your opinion and l will respect your views, albeit that you are indeed incorrect in your assumptions.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

ok, let me start again. i owe that to you. can you tell me briefly, what you are trying to acheive and what motivates you to achieve it? i think that is a fair question and, apparently by your point of veiw, i am confused. so today or at some other time, tell me what you represent. if i agree, i will be an ally.

thank you


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Habu, I've chosen to throw my lot in with Rory and the Pro Keepers Lobby.

Do you know why?

His group is the ONLY group which is *actively, publically* - in the eyes of keepers, shops, societies and the government - *fighting the legislation* that may kill off two of my personal pets. 

I know THAT other societies are apparently fighting it... but* they* aren't telling me anything about:

*Who *is doing it.
*What *is being done.
*When* we can expect to know whether to kill our animals or not.
*Where* they need me.
*How* I can help.

All I get from them is "join the XXX, pay your membership fee, it'll help."

The Pro Keepers Lobby has *no membership fee*. They are asking me for more help than just money. Throwing a few quid at the problem doesn't seem to have fixed it yet (I'm a member of another society) ... and I'm not just going to stick my head under the covers and pretend the monster can't get me if it can't see me.

The Pro Keepers Lobby *has not withheld any information* I have asked for since becoming a member. I have been able to produce articles on my own personal bugaboo, the European Protected Species Act - you can see four of them on this forum, and they are posted on the PKL website. 

I have also been given some guidance as to which people I need to write to and what we need to be asking; I'm good at that sort of thing, so I can expand on the rough guidelines.

*So what if Rory supports importers* - who are businessmen conducting business that has been legal for the last thirteen years? *So what if Rory supports brokers* - who are also businessmen conducting business that all of a sudden needs mountains of paperwork that just don't exist in order to continue? *So what if Rory supports pet shops*, who don't know that some of the most common animals in their shops are now illegal to sell without a license? *The Pro Keepers Lobby is supporting private keepers, too.*

Yeah, Rory and the PKL are zealots about defending our animals and our right to keep them. I'm proud to stand with them. Even if we fail and I lose Chumley and Tananda, at least I didn't sit back and think 

*"Someone else will take care of it."*


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i am probibly completely wrong. he/they may have the purest intentions. and as i said, i hope i am wrong. but you and everyone understand, in my world you question peoples motives. being suspicious of things, especially things that sound too accommodating, keeps you from being ripped off. ripped off not just in money or whatever, but intellectually. it's not human nature to be a crusader. and for him to not be a collector or hobbyist, sends up a red flag to me. and for his website to mention"the industry" so many times, makes me wonder just what his motivation is. who, in this busy life most of us live in have time after worrying about the mortgage, car payments, the kids college fund etc. etc., to persue things like this? especially if you aren't even a hobbyist? if he's being completely honest, then i can too. if someone wants to display such altruism, they have to back it up. yes, he has a story, but is it good enough? at my age, you find that rarely does anyone do anything for you purely for your benefit. they almost always have alterior motives. and that can be ok. but before you sign onto a ship, you better know where it's sailing to. otherwise you may end up in a place you don't want to be.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

first of all, ....apathy is a crime-don't be found guilty!... don't procecute the innocent with your crime!... what kind of horrible, accusitory, hateful, guilt-inducing dogma is that? you need a better P.R. person! how dare you accuse me of a crime! how dare you judge me and delcare that i'm guilty! how dare you imply that i am a predator, guilty of a crime, procecuting the innocent!! you are mean. adversarialy attacking the innocent! i spent almost a decade in the marine corps as a leader and living under a code of honor. i also took an oath which stipulated that i freely sacrifice myself, body and soul to protect the weak and innocent! i am disabled for stepping up to the plate. and i have no regrets. so for you to say I procecute the innocent, is a personal affront to me. accuse me of a crime! you have some gaul! you can take your entire platform and shove it where the sun don't shine! you win people over by being thoughtful, clear and with lean purposefullness. not by intimidation. making someone feel like a flake for not participating, let alone accusing some one of being a criminal!--your own words so don't come down on people so heavy handed! people are not sheep and you most certainly are no sherpard!

HABU!! P.S. put that in your pipe and smoke it! beats whatever you are smoking now!


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Honour in question*

It’s a fair question my friend.

But l will not just answer you direct, but all who may query my intentions.
I am a pro keeper and have been for many years.

Also l have been involved with the industry for nearly 16 years, up until recently with mammals.

I love animals and enjoy the interaction with them. I am a business that works with the animal kingdom and as such animals are in my life and will always be l hope. As corny as it reads l love my work and l love being involved with animals. 

I have no car, no mortgage, no children as of yet, l work my business from my home, my other half does not live here yet and as such l see her only at the weekends. Slowly she is moving her reptile collection up here. Due to her collection l have found my interest in reptiles developing. I did not have an active interest in reptiles before this, sure they were pretty in colour and fascinating to watch - when they actually move! But l am very keen to learn about reptiles. And as more reptiles appear, more l must learn and study and…hold, the latter not being easy for me at times.

My business is working with keepers on an international basis, l have a client base of some 900, and have been working this as a broker/consultant for nearly ten years. I am a keeper of animals and proud to be so, just because l do not have the wisdom that many reptile keepers possess with their skills of husbandry and genetics of their species, makes me no less a keeper than you.

My business in the main handles the likes of large cat species, game species, as said mainly mammals. But l have been politically orientated for some five years now, in the last two l have been belting on about political apathy mostly to the mammal market with an emphasis on the primate side of life.

As said, l love what l do and yes, we are planning on having children, and l want our children, all children to be able to have ‘pets’ in their future or ‘the right’ to own by choice and not the right to not own by politics or opposition.

I want to be able to handle animals for the rest of my days, species of again my choice and not what is dictated to me by those that appear to be in power.

And is it so wrong to want to try and help the industry and the hobbies, that make my life what it is today? Enjoyable? I think not. Am l crusader? 
No, l am part of a team that wants to save their hobbies, our quest, our crusade is to encourage others to join our army and see if we can make a difference.

I never got involved in keeping animals for the money aspect but for the enjoyment of exotic ownership, as indeed did others including you Habu. [David l think]

My business makes life hard for irresponsible keepers, but easy for those who want to have responsible buyers for their surplus’s and exotic pets. Am l guilty of being this - oh yes, l am a seller, on behalf of a client base, and in my process of selling to buyers l am always ensuring that the animals best interest is taken into consideration.

Zealot = no - Zealous = Yes, very much so

I have just read your last post - and l will not make any correction to what l have written above.

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i will respectfully dissever myself from you. say what you want. do what you want. i will make no mention of you or your endeavors. let's agree just not to cross paths here on the forum. live and let live. since i disagree with you, i will not be involved. as if you don't exist. no animosities on either side. agreed?


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*PS*

i will make a comment, not to be read as affronting but that will be your perrogative.

Look up Advertising Strategy, look up Political advertising. Also look up the advertising campaigns from our opposition.

That is all l have to say on sloganizing.

The fact that you stepped up to the plate for your country will not affect how l write to those here on the forum, and no this is not meant as hostile to your duty performed for your beliefs.

These are my beliefs, l am passionate about what l do and what others enjoy believing in. It is our duty to ensure that the future is longer lived for our hobby and yes the industry.

As a Marine, you had to complete a task at hand, and you achieved that. 

As pro keepers we too have a responsibility, a duty bound task to preserve what we believe in, that is worth as much as a fight to keep as you will have achieved for your country and your flag.

If you do read this as hostile, then l can only but say re-read. For there is no aggression in what l write to you.

R


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i can respect you but not agree with you. the two notions are compatable


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*.....*

And as such, l can only respect your views and opinions. Again thankyou for contributing to the thread.

R


----------



## powderpuff_girl (Mar 5, 2007)

i dont really understand what the hell u r talking about


----------



## asm1006 (May 5, 2007)

thought it was just me powderpuff girl-I have no idea what the hell they are on about either!


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

> Apathy is a Crime - Don't Be Found Guilty!
> Don't Prosecute the Innocent with your Guilt!
> 
> 
> I have a question for societies............................


Mmmmm, I shall try to make a reply to this whilst biting my tounge and wondering how many other hats I need to wear.

First, a little about me. I have been keeping reptiles for around 27 years. Not an expert by any means, but have quite a few species. In that time I have learnt a lot about reptiles in general. 

In the last 5 years or so I have concentrated on geckos, inparticular leopard geckos. I have got to know when things are not right just by looking. Why geckos, because they are pretty easy to keep for first time keepers, you all know that.

A few years ago, I became aware of a group that had meetings each mont some 40 miles away. I made that journey each month. I liked what happened there, the way everyone helped each other, advice was free, help abundent, it wasnt all about the money !!

About 18 months ago, we unfortantly had a vacant posisiton on the committee. For the first time in 24 years, the society had not one but two volunteers. Two people willing to give time and effort for free to ensure the society carried on supporting hep keepers in our area.

The committee is made up from lay people, myself, a sales rep, and electrician, IT assistant, book keeper, caterers, another sales rep. Each and every one of us has a full time job, families, other responibilties, yet we all give up a lot of time to ensure the society continues.

This year alone, I estimate some 5000 members of the public have been up close to a reptile as a result of our public displays, any one of those could have learnt something, either about thier own reptile, or reptiles in general. About the care, the food, the lighting, the list goes on.

Each month we give up our time to ensure the meetings go ahead, that speakers are found that educate us, that each and every member gets the help they need. Each month many phone calls are made and recieved about needy reptiles who need a new home. Many miles are traveled to collect such animals, much money is spent on rehoming them, treating them, feeding them. No, we are not paid, the society does not help with cash, it hasnt got a huge bank balance, it ticks over. 

It is US, the members that do all this.

Are we now expected to fully understand any new laws before anyone else, to lobby the halls of power, to represent everyone no matter where, to come out fighting.

Least not we forget, a society is not one person. No one person controls it, the members do so, via the elected committee. IF a society is to take a political view on a subject, then its committee must be the one to do so, refering back to the general membership if needed.

So, back to your question.....

I am a committee member of a society AND the webmaster for that society.

Why nothing on our site?

Until a few days ago, when a RFUK member posted a hell of a lot of good info that they spent hours putting together, there was no real info to post. Now there is it has to be authorised by the committee. I can not and will not use the name of the society for my own means, even if I truly belive these means to be right and in the interest of all keepers. The society website is not my soap box

Now there is some infomation, I do intend raising the matter at our next committee meeting. However I will stand by the committees findings.

If that makes me an apathetic criminal then so be it!

Local societies have never been designed to lobby, there are other larger organisations that purport to do this on our behalf and if they dont we can only inform our members of thier duties under the laws and try to assist them to conform to them, whilst behind the scenes trying to get involved in whatever way we can as individuls.

However this all turns out, I still strongly belive that the best way to raise the profile of reptiles is education in the community... thats what societies are for.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

I have to say Rory, the initial post on this thread could have been phrased much better.

The thread is, as I understand it, about people being apathetic towards the plight of animals on the European Protected Species list. Yet the title of the thread is "The Biggest Crime Of All" and the first two lines are :

*Apathy is a Crime - Don't Be Found Guilty! 
Don't Prosecute the Innocent with your Guilt!

*The EPS is not mentioned until line 6.

So the reader of the thread has been accused and found guilty of being apathetic ( which many of us are not ) and it is not until line 6 that we find out what we are guilty of. How many people will have stopped reading after the first 2 lines ? To me it reads that I am being accused of being apathetic towards my hobby not the EPS.

I agree with the sentiment that societies should be bringing this to the attention of all of their members and spreading the word around all those members that do not frequent forums etc... and I am glad that members such as PJ have read it and responded as they have.

But I can also see Habu's point and why he felt the need to get angry.

Steve.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*.......*

PJ, 

You are right.

Of all the societies we have you promote yours the best. This you know as l said this onto you.

As much as societies need inspiration from their keepers and vice versa. Societies need inspiration from those that they too are affiliated too. The Federations are letting their societies down also, by not supporting them with adequate information.

I will take a hammering for my post and l have done so already and will continue to take it as such because l am seen to be assuming all keepers are apathetic, all societies are apathetic and this is not the case.

But to the ones whom are, they are guilty.

We are all apathetic to a degree, all of us

The EPS does need pushing, by all and sundry for it is a deadly piece of legislation that is in many ways unworkable.

So my aggressive lines, may be aggressive and may be cutting and as some have already preached to me this morning unethical. And sadly upset an American.

But they are aimed at the industry as a whole, as well as the EPS legislation.

Rory


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Rory

Whilst I empathise with your emotional feelings on this and many other subjects, I feel you have not done yourself, nor the pkl, any favours with the wording of your first post.

When I read it for the first time, I was left fuming at the fact that you had, in writing, accused me personally, by way of implication in websites and societies and due to the fact there is no EPS news on our site.

I must admit, I did re read it and tried to place it in context with all our other conversations and this did make me wonder if you were indeed 'covertly' making an attack on some other 'national' society and not in fact on local ones.

We must all be aware that the antis make such swinging statements at times (most times !) that we all jump on and rip apart, and i fear that you may have just done such a thing, albit with good intention. 

Rather than any replies supporting you, they are all now discussing the words you used, the feelings you envoked, NOT the point in hand, the EPS.

Maybe this was your intention, I sure know you move in mysterious ways sometimes, but making such comments aimed at a targeted few on such an open forum seems a little wasted, why not address those directly?

I do understand your reasons for your post, and appreciate your PM this morning, but feel they are a little misplaced and untargeted.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Fair Commentary*

PJ, 

As title suggests, fair comments of which l will take on board in my quest for information.

Covertly making an attack - not really, l could spend an eternity seeking information and never get the raw responses needed to see how people are feeling in reality. And sometimes a shock line will get that response.

Okay so what we have learned here is that keepers do have fight, that keepers like Habu, Ratboy, yourself felt l was attacking you personally when this was not the case.

But even then - and here l open myself up for full attack - only a few keepers have actually answered. Every new post made will illicit a response, some will be good and some not. But every post will reach out a little further into this forum and a new keeper or two will make a post, not great but a comment.

Comments are still information.

A society rightfully so defends its position, others will backlash, and then l can see what is missing from their makeup. No disrespect meant, but we need to build up a team that responds.

I do not expect every single forum member to post to any of my threads or other posts here within this section, nor to other posts made by other PKL or non PKL members. But even the 'off' comment can go a lot further to learning something new.

It affronted.
It offended.
It was read.

The handling of the wording two slogans together, not ideal but it was impactive.

Have l done PKL harm, l don't think so.

Passions are running high at present, and it is fuelled by anger, by de motivation, by misunderstanding, by confusion with legislation, and also by not knowing where to really turn. 

Honestly is any particular party really doing the job? Societies are struggling with memberships, because keepers are struggling with identifying who is better than the other. And keepers are struggling trying to come to grips with every thing also.

It is little wonder that apathy grips us.

I will not make a personal attack on a society although and albeit it will be interpreted as such. But l am trying to highlight the weak points. But our team is small, and we are all trying to work on making things easier to read and understand as well as trying to understand what the keeper of today really wants.

Rory


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

At first, the wording did seem a little confrontational I agree, but for those who are reading the rest of this section of the forum, I fel it should be relatively clear what Rory is getting at.

I actaully feel his thread here appliesot the whole of the changes we are seeing, not just the EPS.

Would we not be just as guilty of having these captively kept species killed by the legislation if we don'tsit up and relaise we can try to do something about it?

I can understand that some may ifnd offence in Rory's words as htey are closely affiliated to societies' and I can understand Habu, after serving for his country proudly, finding offence in the use of the word innocent as he has fought for those hwom are innocent but I really feel the thought should be taken deeper into the phrasing.

I don't participate in any society or anything similar because I don't feel they provide me with anything for hte "membership" fee they carry. I can only speak for the socity(ies) close to where I live but I doubt that if I went to a meeting and said "What are your feelings about the EPS act" barely any would have a clue what I was talkingabout although I know many of them keep European species which will be adversely affected by this.

I beleive that now is hte time for everyone to pull together - not just because they have animals on who will be affected byt he EPS like Ssitho does but because they are keepers and share a passion for the hobby which, one way or another, will be deeply afected byt he legislation being put into play.

I hope that makes a little sense lol I am not too good with words but I will say that I stand proudly alongside the PKL not only as a member bt as a fervent supporter of their openness and ability to keep us informed where many other organisations fail.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

brittone05 said:


> .....I don't participate in any society or anything similar because I don't feel they provide me with anything for hte "membership" fee they carry. I can only speak for the socity(ies) close to where I live but I doubt that if I went to a meeting and said "What are your feelings about the EPS act" barely any would have a clue what I was talkingabout although I know many of them keep European species which will be adversely affected by this.
> 
> I beleive that now is hte time for everyone to pull together - not just because they have animals on who will be affected byt he EPS like Ssitho does but because they are keepers and share a passion for the hobby which, one way or another, will be deeply afected byt he legislation being put into play.
> 
> I hope that makes a little sense lol I am not too good with words but I will say that I stand proudly alongside the PKL not only as a member bt as a fervent supporter of their openness and ability to keep us informed where many other organisations fail.


Maybe now is the time to stop saying 'my society dont have nothing for me' and get over there and change it. join the society, attend the meetings, put your point across. If its valid, and members see it as worth while, YOU will make the difference, YOU yourself have the ability to change your local society so that is does have something to offer, not just to you but to all those sitting at home thinking that theres no point.

Its not easy, I know, I have had many heated discussions, still ongoing, the next meeting is going to be like bonfire night, but it has to be done. I am 2 years into my mission, and still have no sight of my goal, but I, and fellow members, can clearly see a movement in the right direction.


----------



## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

Hey there cats...this is "WolfmanJack"...

Time for the "*lunchtime cryptic*"...for all you easy listeners out there...

This one goes back to the early 1980's, so all you over 40 somethings should get this little number with ease :hmm:...




Whoaaaaooooooooooooooooo Whooooooaaaaaaaarrrrrr Camouflage...

Things are never quite what they seem...

Whoaaaaooooooooooooooooo Whooooooaaaaaaaarrrrrr Camouflage...

He was an awfully big marine : victory:...T.T.8)


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I understand what oyu are saying PJ - I will contact my local society owner today and see about joining and then raise the issues highlighted both here and on PKL. My main problem is that I am not as politically minded as some and may get a bit confuzzled when asked specifics.

May see if Ic an maybe get a chance to brng along my own speaker for the nxt meeting??


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Thats all one can ask.

I too am not a political player, but can play a part that however small, is another bit of the jigsaw.

If its a proper society, it wont have an owner, so you will be able to join and slowly get involved.

Dont expect things overnight, in my experiance, its hard to teach old dogs new tricks, but its worth a go !

Good luck


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

lol, T.T.

I am to ypung to know what the hell your on about, but I bet its worth knowing !!

:lol2:


----------



## weeminx (Oct 28, 2006)

Terrific tortoise said:


> Hey there cats...this is "WolfmanJack"...
> 
> Time for the "*lunchtime cryptic*"...for all you easy listeners out there...
> 
> ...


:lol2::lol2:


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I shbould have said the main society chairperson as such - the man who runs it all 

I am also too young to have a clue what T.T was singing lol


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I shbould have said the main society chairperson as such - the man who runs it all 

I am also too young to have a clue what T.T was singing lol


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Terrific tortoise said:


> Hey there cats...this is "WolfmanJack"...
> 
> Time for the "*lunchtime cryptic*"...for all you easy listeners out there...
> 
> ...


 

i think he's been in the paint thinner again!:lol2::lol2:


----------



## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Terrific tortoise said:


> Whoaaaaooooooooooooooooo Whooooooaaaaaaaarrrrrr Camouflage...
> 
> Things are never quite what they seem...
> 
> ...


"I was a PFC on a search patrol huntin' Charlie down
It was in the jungle wars of '65
My weapon jammed and I got stuck way out and all alone
And I could hear the enemy movin' in close outside"


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

*My thoughts*

Rory I've been on the committee of ERAC and yes all the legal and "hot topics" were discussed at length at the time I was there. A while before I left (about 8 years ago now) the anti's were way more active than they are currently so the clubs/societies resurrected the Federation of British Herpetologists (FBH) as one society aimed at fighting the cause so to speak for herpers everywhere. See them as the main political wing of our hobby.

The Federation of British Herpetologists

If I went back to the days of purchasing my first snake and looked into club websites I would be put off by lots of legal speak and scaremongering etc.etc. Most people join to just have a fun time. Once part of the club then they learn what's what and then it's up to the members to decide if they join the fight or hold with their apathy.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Fbh*

Hi Fangio, 

Yes indeed, however the FBH is not a society but a Federation, as it also comprises some 14 affiliates. It is not being seen as politically active at present however.

FBH is affiliated to FOCAS another federation which _*is*_ politically active.

Be this as it may seem, your political spokes body as in the FBH, could also l believe, do with affiliate political support, would you not agree? It does not matter that they are considered the voice of your hobby, FOCAS is the voice of all the hobbies.

And it would not do any harm what so ever for a political page to be dedicated [even if small] to bullet point political issues currently active, instead of recommending members to a site that is not being administered to correctly on a daily basis?

Rory Matier
PKL


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

TRUE

I just looked through the forums and it seems nothing much has been happening with the FBH for a looooong time. I've asked to join the meeting with them at the Basildon show so hopefully we can work out ways to help.

The problem a lot of people have is they would like to help but just don't know how. If someone posted something saying "this is what you can do for your hobby" or something similar then maybe that'd help. I too fall into the "dunno how" category. Hopefully this meeting will shed some light/ideas. Gonna rejoin ERAC also at the show. I will try to do my bit

And yes I don't see a problem with a political page on a club site but if the whole site was plastered with it then some might be put off.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Positivity is a blessing*

Hi Fangio, 

Your response alongside P/Jurassic is a blessing and a breath of fresh air.

I would not wish to see society pages plastering politics as yes it is offputting and drudgingly tedious.

But as said a small bullet point page with links would l feel further encourage new memberships into a club and therefore as such highlight to those new members that as much as the society is an affiliate to a Federation - would mean that as a club/society they are seen to be actively involved with the issues for the hobby.

Thankyou for your welcomed post.

Rory


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Fangio said:


> Most people join to just have a fun time. Once part of the club then they learn what's what and then it's up to the members to decide if they join the fight or hold with their apathy.


I joined the IHS - and yeah, it was so I could go to Doncaster.

The society itself has not told me ANYTHING about the EPS legislation that I didn't already know by the time they published it... and the society, as you say, should be telling us what's what.

I found out about the (then proposed) changes in June 2006 from a member of Livefoods - who posted a thread on it. Matt Harris - I know you're around on RFUK too. Thanks for the heads-up. That's when I first wrote to DEFRA and later to Natural England.

A FORUM, not a herpetological society, told me about this. Certainly NO newsletter I've ever had has ever talked about much other than regional groups that don't overlap where I live, breeders' sales that are upcoming and who's got what to sell. I know who to contact if I want a prairie kingsnake (and what show I can pick it up at), but not who to send e-mail or postal letters to in order to ask questions about current legislation.

The May 2007 issue mentions a few things about the proposed COTES/CITES amendments, and amendments to the DWA. There is just half a paragraph devoted to hundreds of thousands of affected keepers and millions of animals:


> "New licensing for wild caught European species is supposed to come into effect in April, backdated for 13 years. Those with captive bred or legitimate specimens have been told that the onus of proof of innocence, as usual for wildlife law, is on them. Without invoices or written confirmation from breeders this is likely to be an impossible task."


This is a MAY newsletter talking about legislation that DID come into effect in April.... and it should have been *screaming* it rather than whispering. If I didn't read forums, I wouldn't even have known that I was affected. And I have an unusual species in the hobby - what about people who have common ones?

No article in the Herptile. No list of species. The first time anything was posted about it on a forum by a "head" of a society was March 2007... when it was probably already too late.

Everything I know about the EPS beyond the original posting in 2006 I know because *I* have researched the damn thing - because *I* contacted Natural England and DEFRA. 

I'm still contacting them about keepers' concerns - and the more they talk to me, the uglier the legislation looks. I'm trying to get straight answers from them to my specific questions, not documents dated September 2007 that are general guidance and apply more to museums and educators than to Joe Bloggs and his Firebelly Toads.

I like this bit best:



> *Surrender of specimens*
> If you currently possess a specimen that you no longer wish to hold and/or you do not want to apply for a licence for possession then you may be able to donate your specimen to your local museum.


Because they breed so much better when they're preserved in a jar of Formalin.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Thankyou.

Being on here has made me want to get more involved


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I joined the IHS - and yeah, it was so I could go to Doncaster.
> 
> The society itself has not told me ANYTHING about the EPS legislation that I didn't already know by the time they published it... and the society, as you say, should be telling us what's what.
> 
> ...


That's sad. A club is only as good as it's members. Have you voiced your concerns to the IHS? I'm not up on the EPS myself. I really need to find out more (not that I'm currently keeping European species).


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Fangio said:


> That's sad. A club is only as good as it's members. Have you voiced your concerns to the IHS? I'm not up on the EPS myself. I really need to find out more (not that I'm currently keeping European species).


Yes. I also offered my services with regards to updating their website. 

The last time I asked about policies it took six weeks to get an answer - and that was a simple question ("How many adults in a family membership?")... and I was also told that things were kept under wraps because that was "safer" and prevented problems with the Antis.

You say "Quiet and Under the Radar", I say "Looks like a Dirty Secret".

I do recommend reading the EPS articles I've written here - if only because I see implications for the future of animals you DO keep (pythons, boas, tegus... they're all species subject to a piece of legislation that is currently unregulated the way EPS species USED to be...) and maybe if we know what CAN happen if we're not aware, we can stop it happening next time.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Yes. I also offered my services with regards to updating their website.
> 
> The last time I asked about policies it took six weeks to get an answer - and that was a simple question ("How many adults in a family membership?")... and I was also told that things were kept under wraps because that was "safer" and prevented problems with the Antis.
> 
> ...


All I'll say is that it seems there are better clubs out there then if they're worried about being seen by the anti's. Not the case with ERAC (and other clubs also I'm sure). I will look into your threads on the EPS.


----------



## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I do recommend reading the EPS articles I've written here - if only because I see implications for the future of animals you DO keep (pythons, boas, tegus... they're all species subject to a piece of legislation that is currently unregulated the way EPS species USED to be...) and maybe if we know what CAN happen if we're not aware, we can stop it happening next time.


This seemed apt for this discussion:

*First They Came for the Jews*

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

_Pastor Martin Niemöller_


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Suoerb*

WELL DONE SIR!!

Superb quote.

Rory

Apt to the friggin bone!!


----------



## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Fantastic choice of quote!

I don't run my own websites, therefore I can't broadcast over the websites that I am a member of. But I've added Pro keepers lobby links and points on things like facebook,myspace..and even my signature on other forums, to try and raise what little awarness I can. Not to mention educating people who ask via MSN. Though i'm not as up with the EPS legislation as i'd like to be

It's not much and i'm trying to find ways to do more, so if you have any more ideas i'd be more than happy to help.


I don't own any species that are covered under the new legislation (that i'm aware of)..but i can't understand some peoples attitudes of 'well it doesn't affect me'...no but it affects thousands and thousands of animals... and one day it could affect you, what if they branch out to say species like the large boids or monitors..how many keep those?(just a random example i admit)

Do they deserve to die, just because the owners can't prove they were born in captivity.because they're now claiming you need paperwork..which has never existed nor been required before.. It's ridiculous..

It's just another nail in the hobby coffin,n i for one won't stand for it.. the steps i have made are small but they are something. And it's something that most of you can do out there.



Katie


----------



## Stubby (Jan 30, 2007)

I too have put the link on my myspace page and blogged about the PKL...Some of us can't do a lot, but if we do all do a little, then it will hopefully start to add up...

Stubby


----------



## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

Fixx said:


> "I was a PFC on a search patrol huntin' Charlie down
> It was in the jungle wars of '65
> My weapon jammed and I got stuck way out and all alone
> And I could hear the enemy movin' in close outside"


Yes sir...thats the kiddy...

Although some of the words I got wrong...

As for the cryptic...well...

*Wolfman Jack* was/is a famous American DJ, I think,

*Rory* and* Habu* are both American, 

Their both like me, over *40*,

I used the word *cat* for rory,

habu is the *marine*,

It was suggested that possibly, *things are not quite what they seem*

All wrapped up in an old song...easy peasy...when you think about it : victory:...T.T.8)


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

HABU said:


> first of all, ....apathy is a crime-don't be found guilty!... don't procecute the innocent with your crime!... what kind of horrible, accusitory, hateful, guilt-inducing dogma is that? you need a better P.R. person! how dare you accuse me of a crime! how dare you judge me and delcare that i'm guilty! how dare you imply that i am a predator, guilty of a crime, procecuting the innocent!!


Not to put TOO fine a point on it, Habu.... but guess what?

These laws aren't killing any of your animals. You may have your OWN legal issues in the States, but this isn't one of them.

They ARE going to kill millions of animals and affect hundreds of thousands of keepers here in the UK. 

People in the UK who stick their heads in the sand and pretend it isn't happening, that they can hide their animals forever or just ignore the law... they are doing more harm than good.

They make those of us who are aware and trying to make a difference look the same as them - potential wildlife criminals who will hide our animals instead of comply with the licensing laws.



> you are mean. adversarialy attacking the innocent!


If you see someone pointing a gun at a child, are you INNOCENT if you let them shoot them without even shouting "Stop" ? 

This law is pointing a gun at animals - who are as innocent as innocent gets, subject completely to their owners and the laws their owners must comply with - and if we don't raise our voices and shout, each one of us who didn't speak up just LET those animals be killed.

I would rather stand up and shout - and risk my animals that way, since they'll KNOW I have them - than lie down, roll onto my back with my tail between my legs and let them come and take them away. And if me standing up and shouting saves someone ELSE's animals... 

When all it takes, initially, is sending a letter to DEFRA or Natural England - [email protected] and [email protected] asking some pointed questions about what happens to all the animals... yes, Habu, apathy IS a crime.

Folks who want to take me up on that - sending e-mail to the ruling bodies to ask - please ask some or all of the following questions, in your own words:



> Does this legislation apply to *every single person in the UK* who currently owns or may wish to sell an animal listed on the European Protected Species Annex IV list?
> *How likely* is it that a pet keeper who is trying to obtain a license for animals they owned prior to April 2007 will *succeed in their license application*?
> What would be considered *reasonable documentary evidence of origin*?
> Does the “*two references,* preferably with similar licenses, to demonstrate your abilities” request apply to private pet keepers?
> ...


And any response you get, please share it with the rest. The more people who ask, the bigger they'll see the problem is.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Some wonderful advice Ssistho.

I don't own any animals ont he EPS, I won't be directly affcted by it BUT I will be alongside you shouting my a$$ off to help in any possible way because what the EPS entails goes against everything I beleive in regarding animal care and ownership.

Again, Habu, I understand your initial thoughts on the phrasing used but still fell htat deeply looked into, it's meaning speaks volumes to the keepers ofthe UK.


----------



## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

Terrific tortoise said:


> Yes sir...thats the kiddy...
> 
> Although some of the words I got wrong...
> 
> ...


If memory serves, it ended like this, which pretty much sums up my view on this whole thing...

_He said, "You may be telling true boy, but this here is Camouflage"_
_"And he's been here since he passed away last night."_

A piece of legislation is slipping through that has issued a summary death sentence on what might be as many as five million affected animals in captive care according to people in the trade and people will think everything's fine until they're all laid out dead in front of them. That is, unless we do something about it.

I couldn't really care less about the hurt feelings of people who take comments so ridiculously out of their intended context. There's a much bigger issue at hand here and anyone who is more interested in complaining about someone's 'tone of voice' than doing or saying something constructive is really wasting their time and effort that could be put to better use. The 'Don't you dare tread on me' attitude really shouldn't be directed at other keepers. We have enough trouble from the antis and the pen pushers who really deserve the harassment much more.

I don't always agree with Rory, I publicly voiced my reservations about the fisting image because I think it's counter productive to a broader campaign. That was my opinion, I stated it and left it at that. However, he has my full backing because he's actually willing to pull his finger out and do something instead of sitting around in committees discussing possibly considering doing something about perhaps maybe saying something after the tea and biscuits have been passed around and then deciding to talk about it in three months instead.

Of course he has motives other than just the greater good of mankind. Everyone does. I know I'm personally affected because of some of the animals in my collection and know others in the same boat. Rory knows a LOT of people who will be affected and yes, his business will be affected, that's his livelihood. If he wasn't concerned about that a little I'd be worried. It's not that big a deal for him and others in that position though because importers and brokers can always just supply different animals that aren't covered by the legislation. The main effects of this legislation are squarely on the shoulders of unsuspecting private keepers.

If you care more about your posturing than the hundreds of thousands of your fellow keepers who are facing either criminalisation or executing their pets, I really think you need to take a step back and think about your priorities.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

they pass laws around here. depending on where you live. most of the time these laws gather dust. even a judge would have to look them up. some people get into a panick here about someone taking their stuff away. like in kentucky, i read that now you need a permit to transport snakes through the state. like who knows that law? is the highway patrol going to pull you over and ask you if you have any snakes in your car? hell, if you showed one to the cop, he'd probibly say "wow! that's cool!" and let you go on your merry way. americans are not as law abiding as the good people over there. "it's only againsst the law if you get caught":lol2: is a common phrase around here. the animal rights groups are much more concerned about dogs and cats. so some city counsel passes a law against something, it's usually an unnoticed piece of legislation and is filed away quickly so that the councilmen can hurry up and close session and go have dinner. you won't see any federal laws passed that are going to affect the average hobbyist. may be a town ordinance. states are hesitant to pass too harsh a law, they pass the buck, they all do. we have peta here sure but nothing as bad as it seems there. the anti's are not too radical here. i'm lucky to live here. and what good is a law if it's not enforcable? if it's ignored by both keepers and laws enforcement? heck we got meth labs to worry about. gun fire and murder sprees to worry about. don't believe me? Home - :: LOCAL 12 :: WKRC-TV Cincinnati the anti's and law enforcers over there seem to have too much time on their hands. you guys need to fight those that want to control or eliminate your hobby. we have a sayin i'm sure you've heard: "you can have my gun when you pull it from my cold, dead hands. under gun, insert snake. i hope it never gets as bad here as it is there. herp keeping is alive and well in the U.S just see kingsnake.com - the information portal for reptile and amphibian hobbyists. . i get mad when i hear what the anti lobby is always trying to do there. just think how infuriated i would be if that was happening here! i'd be fit to be tied!!! i tell ya "but they're trying to take yoursnakes away" sure they've been trying to do that with guns for how long now? yet you can go to any flea market and buy an AK-47 and a box of rounds with nothing but money!! americans don't much like authority. we have a saying we use for the "anti" crowd and authority "kiss my *ss!!" so you guys DO need to defend your right to keep these things. we would!


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

HABU said:


> "it's only againsst the law if you get caught":lol2: is a common phrase around here.


Well, over here the implications are very much different.

1. If we get caught... our EPS animals will be confiscated. 
2. If we get caught... we could each get a fine of up to £5000 - that's somewhere around $20,000.
3. If we get caught... we could each get a six-month jail sentence.
4. If we get caught and jailed, they'll take the REST of our animals away because we won't be able to take care of them - there IS only us two.

This isn't just a town law like the ones against eating peanuts in church, Habu. It's not one that Bobby Beatcop would be ignorant of if Natural England had them come to your door.

This is a European Union law. Think about the Patriot Act. It's that sort of scale. 



> and what good is a law if it's not enforcable? if it's ignored by both keepers and laws enforcement?


There is a specific agency and department for enforcing the wildlife legislation. It ISN'T going to be ignored by the enforcers... so the keepers damn well better not ignore it.



> i tell ya "but they're trying to take yoursnakes away" sure they've been trying to do that with guns for how long now? yet you can go to any flea market and buy an AK-47 and a box of rounds with nothing but money!!


Yeah, and you can't buy most guns over here either... used to be able to, but not any more. Heck, even some airguns are illegal.
Our "bill of rights" doesn't include the right to keep and bear arms.

That's why folks like me are standing up and shouting "stand with us."

Because British people are USED to losing things they considered rights... they can be taken away with one stroke of a pen. And then they're gone.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

tell you what ssthisto. if it's like you say and not just some paranoid chicken littles, then you all have some real problems to address. here, we would first of all organize a letter writing campaign to your congressman, your senator, you state senator and congressman for starters. someone to keep track of every bill put on the floors of the house and senate of both state and federal. any regulation changes with the U.S.D.A and the customs department. petitions on every lawmakers desk from registered voters etc. but alas, i don't know how your system works. take a look at our local herp society's site: The Greater Cincinnati Herpetological Society notice all the concern for laws? you guys have too many fine herpers for it to be destroyed as a hobby. heck! almost everything there is captive born! but people shouldn't use militant tactics to try to rally thoughtful, intellegent people. name the first 3 things a herper there should to to help the cause,... and don't say support. support isn't action, you need concrete thing for people to do. have you guys got on the local news to promote the hobby or held events? snakes draw people out of curiosity even if they don't like them. how many school presentations have taken place this week? i was doing that in the '70's along with the scouts. you have ambassadors for the hobby? you folks may be doing these things and more already, i don't know. if i don't know how many more on this forum know? i'm just trying to be helpful.


----------



## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

My e-mail in on its way - thanks Ssthisto for the pointers (I was never very good at writing letters and things!) they help immensley to get across what needs to be asked.
Ally


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

apathy is legal here.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

A lot of the things you mention Habu, have been done already but it is good to see that people are willing ot throw ideas about - I know things are os different for you in the States and I am, at times, envious of the freedomyou have as a country.

Thousands of our ancestors lost thier lives in wars not so different from the scenario yourself nad your fellow fighters have seen for us tohave our freedom - that freedom is now being taken away chip by chip until eventually, we will have the right to own nothing except a blody big book of what we can and cant' do


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Arghhhh no edit key and my spelling is atrocious!! Fogrive my typos - trying to get used ot a laptop keyboard evil thing it is lol


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i've written my representitives in the past ans so have my friends for various things. and man! do things get done! you write your congressman about say, something going on on your street and BAM! the mayor get a letter from washinton D.C., and a day or two later the city workers are busy filling in the pot holes in the road that everyone's been complaining about for a year!


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Oh my if only it was like that over here. I wrote ot my local MO (equivalent of your congressman Iwould guess??) about the whole AWA issues and such and was basically told that she agreedwitht he anti's and I should deal with it and move on in life!

Heck it takes our council about 8 weeks to even come out and INSPECT a broken stret light or something!!


----------



## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

Yes, things are certainly different in the States...

I do believe they still ship Mediterranean/North african adult tortoises over there?, in big numbers...T.T.8)


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

parliment, yeah what do you call them guys? i can almost remember.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

a$$holes in my house they are called hehhee


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

here's the laws for where i live.:

State Laws Governing Private Possession of Exotic Animals


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Blimey - if I tried to link you to a page for our laws about bringing animals intot he counry it would be zillions of pages long!

totally off toic now but my step kids usedto live in Ohio lol


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

Rory - 
I too found your first statement offensive and intimidating. I know what you are doing and why you are doing it. Your way comes across as too militant for my own personal liking. Yes I too would like to help in some way, but I'm not at all in any way politically minded or as 'loud' (probably the wrong choice of word, but I hope you know what I mean) as yourself, and that puts me off joining the PKL, but not helping our hobby.
I need to know what I can do to help the hobby, things that I personally am comfortable with.

Another point: As I'm not a political person, and political and legal jargon goes waaaaaay over my head, is there a 'translation' into plain, understandable English of the AWA and any other acts or bills etc that I should be concerned about as a private keeper?


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

:grin1:


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Militant*

Am l militant?

No.

Am l passionate?

Yes.

Plain English translations - not many to be had to be fair.

The writing from a legislation document to a simpler easier to understand format is not as easy as it may first appear. To untangle what is written by bodies that are specifically recruited to write the easy to understand in a complex way is very difficult to unravel at times.

This is not a get out card, but it is something we are trying to combat.

I have to say this - my methods are going to be seen as hot beds by many, hostile by others, aggressive by even more.

The opposition are very militant in some of their campaigns and l am afraid that the time for passiveness is long gone and we must start fighting fire with fire.

To give you an example:
*"If not knowing where your parents came from makes you a bastard. the bastards will get away with murder."*
Is one of my new slogans and it is aimed very specifically at DEFRA with regards the EPS legislation. For them to drop it in now, may well be considered militant to a certain degree?

Here we have a piece of legislation that has been in existance for 13 years since 1994 and DEFRA have sat on it. In Europe this legislation is already active and was actioned back then. However most of the species that are in the list were already banned from private collections in Europe at the time, so it did not affect their keepers so much.

British keepers like European species, and over here it is not or was not against the law to purchase them. And they did so unwittingly not knowing that they were illegal in some European countries.

Now there is slightly more to it.

But that is in plain English.

DEFRA screwed up big time.

Now thousands upon thousands of animals [live] and collection specimens [Dead] are going to be subjected to death and destruction. This does not just murder reptiles, but birds, insects, amphibians, insects and mammals.

Now we can sit back and accept this, and let the community be rough shod again or we can do something about it. 

So yes, l will be aggressive, and yes l will attack all those that not just oppose in terms of anti, but also all those that attack whom are supposed to be regulatory, yes l will attack apathy and ignorance. This will make me to be seen as militant perhaps but l do assure you l am not. 

The time for attack is now. Simple.

PKL may not be your answer, but if you want to do something for your hobby, then join a society and let them be your voice. That is their job. If they belong to a federation, then it is the latters' job. And if your society is not part of a federation, then ask them why?

This is not meant to be read as hostile, but even you are a tad political surely, your signature is a political rebuff of the RSPCA is it not?

The RSPCA are very political for a charity l would say.

See Here ref EPS: 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/exotics-classifieds/56155-african-dormice.html#post815961

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

isn't it better to fight fire with water?


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

lol, nah habu - its them that are trying to take the piss, not us!

N


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Valid Point*

Perhaps Habu.

Water is needed to extinguish flames.

But at times fire is needed to fight fire.

That is where l believe we need to be.

R


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

buddy, i'm glad i don't have these problems. but i have to say i do agree with you guys. things sound like they could be getting hairy over there. just fight the good fight. if you told me they were going to ban herps or whatever here i'd laugh at you. but i seems by the way the wind is blowing, it could become a reality there. i for one, if it were to happen here, be the first with my flak jacket on! ain't no one going to take my animals away. if i had to go underground i would. so good luck to all concerned parties.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Basic English*



eeji said:


> Rory -
> I too found your first statement offensive and intimidating. I know what you are doing and why you are doing it. Your way comes across as too militant for my own personal liking. Yes I too would like to help in some way, but I'm not at all in any way politically minded or as 'loud' (probably the wrong choice of word, but I hope you know what I mean) as yourself, and that puts me off joining the PKL, but not helping our hobby.
> I need to know what I can do to help the hobby, things that I personally am comfortable with.
> 
> Another point: As I'm not a political person, and political and legal jargon goes waaaaaay over my head, is there a 'translation' into plain, understandable English of the AWA and any other acts or bills etc that I should be concerned about as a private keeper?


 
Yes this thread here explains the EPS in an easier to understand format.

There are roughly 70+ sheets from Natural England on this subject for the keeper - this link says it all.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/55694-basic-eps.html

Here is a starter.

R


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Yes this thread here explains the EPS in an easier to understand format.
> 
> There are roughly 70+ sheets from Natural England on this subject for the keeper - this link says it all.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link Rory and also Ssthisto for writing the piece, its suddenly become all clear after reading one single page of plain English.
...and no I don't find you at all hostile, we just have different ways of going about things and yours is just much more up front.


----------

