# Munchkin cat



## Halfpint (Sep 11, 2009)

Does anyone know of any munchkin cat breeders in the uk?


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

You'd get more responses if you put this in "other pets", since they aren't exotic. But be prepared for comments on the morality of munchkins.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Mutant cats, I will never know why they allow cats to be bred like this


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Definitely doesn't make any sense for a cat to have such short legs....


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## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

I must say honestly that i've never heard of this breed of cat before, but after doing a quick google search it has honestly upset me! They look so wrong, they don't look like cats to me? I can't see why anyone would want a cat that doesn't even look like it could jump onto your lap for a snuggle.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

They do have difficulty doing things that cats seem to really enjoy. I mean, I get the point of daschunds and their short legs, but there is no reason to intentionally breed a dieformed cat like the munchkin.


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## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

Amalthea said:


> They do have difficulty doing things that cats seem to really enjoy. I mean, I get the point of daschunds and their short legs, but there is no reason to intentionally breed a dieformed cat like the munchkin.


It's obvious (well to me) that when you see them that they wont be able to do the 'normal' things, that cats love to do! One thing that comes to mind is jumping for a toy on a stick. Aren't these cats huge in america?


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I wouldn't say "huge", but pretty popular, yes.


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## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

Amalthea said:


> I wouldn't say "huge", but pretty popular, yes.


"huge" Ow god, you do pick the wrong words when your tired right :lol2:. Yes the word I was looking for was popular thanks :lol:


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

*lol*


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

awful breed of cat, having one that cant do normal cat things is just wrong.
think theres a breeder in worcestershire. they aint cheap though


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## anz3001 (Jul 8, 2008)

what is it that they cant do? never heard of them personally but after checking a few sites they all seem to say they are adept at climbing and jumping and very active?


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

maybe a site that also says british shorthairs are friendly, outgoing, sociable family pets too? :whistling2:

they were bred by the yanks to make cats that couldnt climb on and damage the furniture.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Even worse than Munchkins are Bambino cats:bash:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Shell195 said:


> Even worse than Munchkins are Bambino cats:bash:


Omg, just googled that! Poor kitties! Have you ever seen twisty cats? I think they've gone away now, but they were sick.


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## lisadew24 (Jul 31, 2010)

I have for the first time have seen what the munchkins look like and I can say they are freaky, it sadness me that so called animal lovers do this to their poor cats but after my mum moving to isle of man and learning that the manx cats have spina bifida I shouldn't be surprised.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Just googled "twisty cats" and.......


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

lisadew24 said:


> I have for the first time have seen what the munchkins look like and I can say they are freaky, it sadness me that so called animal lovers do this to their poor cats but after my mum moving to isle of man and learning that the manx cats have spina bifida I shouldn't be surprised.


thats why tailless cats are bred to a tailed one, to reduce the chances of the babies having deformities to the base of the spine.


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## anz3001 (Jul 8, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> maybe a site that also says british shorthairs are friendly, outgoing, sociable family pets too? :whistling2:
> 
> they were bred by the yanks to make cats that couldnt climb on and damage the furniture.


 
ahh right, ive been on about 10-12 web sites now and they all say similar aswell as it being a naturally occuring gene thing


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

what country is the website located?
that will affect the validity of its information............

for example, in the states its considered `normal` to declaw cats - a surgical operation to remove the claws so they cant damage the furniture, behave normally or defend themselves against dogs etc.
its totally illegal in the uk.
so any website reccomending that you get it done wouldnt apply here in the uk.

it might be a naturally occuring gene mutation, but not all mutations should be propagated and continued imo...........


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

It's 100% natural because it's dwarfism, same as any other congenital problem, we don't breed cats born blind or born with no ears, so why would we breed this? Very silly.


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## anz3001 (Jul 8, 2008)

well if the animal suffers i agree 100%. 

up until this thread i had never heard of munchkin cats. ive since looked through a number of sites and havent found anywhere that states they suffer and infact they all say there are no specific issues with the 'breed'. ive asked for information (out of pure curiosity)and havent been given anything other than opinion

i find it odd that people on a site where selective breeding, quite often at the detriment of an animal, is so common and yet people can have such hypocritical views

hairless mice anyone???


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Hairless mice can run, jump, play with their friends and generally be a mouse. Munchkin cats can not.


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## anz3001 (Jul 8, 2008)

ohh dear......


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I have hairless cats, they can run jump,play and do anything else a furred cat can do. Munchkins are bred with a deformity and although they may do most things it must put strain on their spine. I really dont see how anyone can see that breeding a disabled cat is right


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

hairless mice and cats have normal full healthy active lives, the genetic mutation they have dosnt have any quality of life issues.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

We have two cats in our 'family', one lives with my mother the other here, they are affected with something similar to this to a slight degree.

My mothers, Misty, has one front leg like a munchkin cat, his tail is also deformed, he walks on the full length of his 'forearm'. It does affect his mobility but not to the degree that I think a cat who was more affected would be debilitated. He is 5 years old now and is already getting 'old' unlike our normal moggies.

My kitten Twix has her front end that looks a little lower than her back end, both front legs look slightly shorter than they should be. It's more noticable at different times depending on how she is stood. This doesn't affect her mobility at all I don't think. Maybe because both front legs are affected. She also does not walk on her forearms like Misty.

Both these cats are moggies that were rescues and were born naturally like this. They weren't bred to be deformed and obviously aren't as badly affected as the munchkins that are purposefully bred.
I don't think it's fair on the animal to be bred like this on purpose as having owned these two I can see how badly it must affect the poor cats that have even more of a deformity.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Could Twix have manx in her? Cuz they tend to have shorter front legs.....


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Jen she could have siberian tiger in her. I have no idea.

No honestly I doubt it as she is just a moggie from the local pet shop.
Another little kitten bought, for £125, without thought and then discarded within 4 weeks. I must add her owner did love her and she was in no way neglected just there was no thought to what other household members thought of a kitten in the house...and she is a little sheeite when she gets going!
Luckily I deliver to her previous owner and said I'd take her before some moron got her and let her out to be having kittens every few months!
I think I put a thread about her on but forgot to add pics of her.
Her legs aren't 'obvious' except in person. If she's just sat down she looks normal.
I did wonder if her front legs would 'catch up' with her back legs but she's 5 months old now and I can still see a difference.


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## Nikorusama (Feb 19, 2011)

Aww just saw the poor twisty cats  that's absolutely horrible, who would ever do such a thing! Although I do agree that pedigree species do end up with deformities bred into them. All the pedigree dogs and cats have specific health problems concerned with their breed. A mongrel or a moggy is a better choice as they tend to have a wider gene pool and in general live longer. Poor pugs have breathing problems and westies have eye problems and german shepherds have sloping hips as a breed and generally get hip and leg problems. None of these are very good in my opinion! However I'll admit I am a hypercrit as I'd love a Siamese cat.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Nikorusama said:


> Although I do agree that pedigree species do end up with deformities bred into them. All the pedigree dogs and cats have specific health problems concerned with their breed. A mongrel or a moggy is a better choice as they tend to have a wider gene pool and in general live longer. Poor pugs have breathing problems and westies have eye problems and german shepherds have sloping hips as a breed and generally get hip and leg problems. None of these are very good in my opinion! However I'll admit I am a hypercrit as I'd love a Siamese cat.


Wow, that is so very untrue. Well bred pedigree animals are by far the healthiest you can own because the breeders know the animals and have bred two healthy animals together to get healthy young.
Mixed breeds are simply susceptible to two times the diseases plus any disease that comes from breeding without thinking properly or doing any health tests.
Plus as for living longer, the oldest dog ever was an Australian Cattle Dog at 29! Oldest in the UK was a Border Collie at 27.


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## Nikorusama (Feb 19, 2011)

It really is true! I think you are forgetting that a lot of diseases and health problems might be recessive and if that's the case one type of dog having two healthy alleles for that disease gene means that the offspring won't get it. The problem being is they are both carriers, then there is a 1 in 4 chance. With two dogs pedigree dogs that both had the health problem which there are usually there in all the animals of that breed, all the offspring would also be affected! The only way to combat this is to open up the gene pool. If the disease/ problem was dominant and you had two of the dominant alleles then your offspring of that dog would have the disease/health problem whoever thy were mated to. However if both the pedigree dogs has the health problem and were only carriers then there is a 50/50 chance of getting health offspring. 

I do know that not all diseases and health problems work to Mendelian genetics and there are more complex genetic diseases out there but this is a simplified explanation. Also, why do you think it is more expensive to insure some of the pedigree breeds (other than those classed as dangerous dogs)? Its because they are proven to be more unhealthy and the pet insurance won't want to lose money over it.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

You're mixing up pedigree breeding and inbreeding, yes inbreeding can result in the emergence of recessive traits, but that has nothing to do with pedigree breeding where the animals are the same breed but not closely related.
Plus any good breeder is testing their dogs for diseases known to be in the breed, in GSD this includes things like hip scoring and elbow testing. Try finding me a crossbred animal whose parents have been tested for anything.


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## Nikorusama (Feb 19, 2011)

Still it is cheaper to insure some types of pedigree meaning that some pedigrees are susceptible to more health risks and all pedigrees are more expensive than crossbreeds. Plus mongrels might not only have lineage from two types of pedigree but a lot more. Also even after these pedigrees paarents have had their tests they still produce pets with those problems often enough. My grandmas dog was a german shepherd and her parents were hip scored and she still had problems with her hips and arthritis in her old age sadly. My mum has a Weimaraner and well I can't say anything about him other than he is crackers but I do know that they suffer from intestinal issues and can die if fed food before walks or close after and they need to eat from elivated bowls.

(ps sorry about my crappy spelling and writing I'm in my iPhone and it likes to correct me when I don't want it to, plus it's hard to type correctly on here)


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Nikorusama said:


> It really is true! I think you are forgetting that a lot of diseases and health problems might be recessive and if that's the case one type of dog having two healthy alleles for that disease gene means that the offspring won't get it.


Problem is, many dog breeds share the same problems (because they're all the same species, at the heart of it) and therefore, making crosses isn't guaranteed to improve the situation. 

Breed a GSD to a Cocker Spaniel (both breeds have lines with high incidence of dysplasia) and you'll get a cross that's just as prone to dysplasia as either parent breed, PLUS being a carrier for any defects that the two breeds don't share, but that the parent dogs had.

Not many cross-breeders test their chosen dogs for not only the defects known in their breed, but also in the breed they're going to cross TO - and many cross-breeders may be using dogs that the original KC registered-and-pedigreed breeders deemed "not fit for breeding" - because they weren't ideal specimens of the breed in question. 

Breeding a health-tested GSD to a health-tested Cocker - if both dogs were tested not only for the diseases in their own breed but also for the ones known in the other breed - sure, that's likely to make healthy pups. But so would breeding a health-tested GSD to another health-tested GSD.

As far as it goes, although I have heard that Munchkins cannot jump as high as a normally legged cat, I haven't heard that they're physically incapable of behaving as a cat, and I have read that the relative flexibility of cat spines reduces the issues compared to short-legged dog breeds. Now, granted, the context is "American breeders of Munchkin cats" ... but in many places in America, cats are indoor-only pets anyway and cannot be allowed outside to roam, or they'll be picked up as strays.


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## Nikorusama (Feb 19, 2011)

Plus pets such as the labradoodle and cross bred pets are becoming increasingly popular and are well bred. It's false to assume only bad breeders and poor people deal with crossbreeds as that is what you are hinting at!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Nikorusama said:


> Plus pets such as the labradoodle and cross bred pets are becoming increasingly popular and are well bred. It's false to assume only bad breeders and poor people deal with crossbreeds as that is what you are hinting at!


Ah, so hip dysplasia and progressive retinal atrophy - despite being present in both parent breeds - doesn't affect Lab X poodle crosses? 

Are you familiar with the term "outbreeding depression" ? There is an opposite to "hybrid vigour" - not all hybrid crosses are healthier and more fit than their parents.

I'm saying that MOST people who do crossbreeding (and that includes backyard breeders and "oops she/he jumped the fence" when they don't go obtain a mismate jab and therefore INTEND to produce the pups) are not doing the necessary tests to ensure that the dogs they produce are being produced from the best examples available.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Nikorusama said:


> Plus pets such as the labradoodle and cross bred pets are becoming increasingly popular and are well bred. It's false to assume only bad breeders and poor people deal with crossbreeds as that is what you are hinting at!


Oh my life. I wish you saw the amount of these that are in rescue! People buy labradoodles and other -oodles because the believe they are non-allergenic (which is a lie) and when they start to have an allergic reaction they send the dog to the pound!
Popularity is never an argument for something being good!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Nikorusama said:


> My grandmas dog was a german shepherd and her parents were hip scored and she still had problems with her hips and arthritis in her old age sadly.


Should also state that simply testing does not ensure good puppies. You need to get the results back!
For example a dog can be hip scored and get a bad result, that means that you DO NOT breed from them.


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## Nikorusama (Feb 19, 2011)

Well to have the phenomenon of outbreeding depression there is also a inbreeding depression. I'm not saying all mongrels and crossbreeds are healthier but in general they are. There are plenty of bad breeders out there selling pedigrees so really the diseases and problems will continue to be a problem in these animals. I cant be bothered arguing anymotr as it really isn't getting us anywhere lol and I have my house to clean lol. You both probably own pedigrees and there is nothing wrong with that but denying that reducing the gene pool can produce less healthy individuals is quite wrong.

I'll also leave you with:-
Conclusions

Oh and I have owned pedigree and non pedigree and at the moment I don't own any and feel my opinion is rather unbiased. Plus I have a degree in genetics.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

hip dysplasia isnt 100% inherited either, its a combo of genetics and upbringing.

over exercise/free running as youngsters across the park can cause damage too, as can jumping in and out of cars and going up stairs.

i`ve seen gundogs with hipscores that`d make you cry that shouldnt be able to walk bouncing around like nutters, working and doing their job

and dogs with good scores that can hardly move.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Nikorusama said:


> You both probably own pedigrees and there is nothing wrong with that


Nope. Two rescued moggies, no dog. 

But yes, there are bad breeders in both crossbreeding and in purebred. The problem is not with the ANIMALS it is with the HUMANS that don't take bad test scores (or animals that regularly produce bad test scores, or don't bother testing at all, or don't do all the tests necessary) and think "ok, this line isn't working, we'll spay/neuter the parents and work on producing one that's better."



pigglywiggly said:


> over exercise/free running as youngsters across the park can cause damage too, as can jumping in and out of cars and going up stairs.


This is a good point - over-exercising a pup's as bad as under-exercising it.


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## Nikorusama (Feb 19, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> Nope. Two rescued moggies, no dog.
> 
> But yes, there are bad breeders in both crossbreeding and in purebred. The problem is not with the ANIMALS it is with the HUMANS that don't take bad test scores (or animals that regularly produce bad test scores, or don't bother testing at all, or don't do all the tests necessary) and think "ok, this line isn't working, we'll spay/neuter the parents and work on producing one that's better."



I agree with that whole heartedly however having a bigger gene pool to work with knowing you have healthy animals (mongrels that have been genetically tested) is most likely going to produce pets with less health problems than breeding within a limited gene pool healthy pets or not.

I also agree its how the owners look after their pets and that also includes spoiling them TOO much and in some cases giving them too much food and making them over weight can also have a great baring on their health. Anyway must go and start cleaning (will do anything to procrastinate lol)


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Ssthisto said:


> But yes, there are bad breeders in both crossbreeding and in purebred. The problem is not with the ANIMALS it is with the HUMANS that don't take bad test scores (or animals that regularly produce bad test scores, or don't bother testing at all, or don't do all the tests necessary) and think "ok, this line isn't working, we'll spay/neuter the parents and work on producing one that's better."


Exactly this!
And for the record, I currently have both pedigree and non-pedigree animals, and foster for rescues both pedigrees and none. I've had more dogs and cats through my house than most people have in a lifetime and am in the vets most weeks with rescues. I know what I'm talking about with health problems!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Nikorusama said:


> I agree with that whole heartedly however having a bigger gene pool to work with knowing you have healthy animals (mongrels that have been genetically tested) is most likely going to produce pets with less health problems than breeding within a limited gene pool healthy pets or not.


A limited gene pool is one thing and in some breeds that have become very low in number there has been outcrossing for this reason. However in most breeds the gene pool is in the millions, this isn't limited in anyones book.


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## anz3001 (Jul 8, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> hairless mice and cats have normal full healthy active lives, the genetic mutation they have dosnt have any quality of life issues.


hairless mice dont have a compromised immune system that leaves them more exposed to allergies and dieseases???


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