# Dwarf Rats



## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

I met a girl a few years back who kept dwarf rats. They were one of the cutest things I have EVER seen!

I've heard a lot of negative comments about them since then though.
Some people claim they're just runts being bred irresponsibly to reduce size, and that there's really no such thing as a dwarf rat.
I don't know enough about rats and rat breeding to comment, I just know that they appeared very healthy and very very cute.

I was just wondering if anyone can enlighten me on this. Have you kept or bred dwarf rats?
What's your opinion - are they a true dwarf or just smaller than average, or even runts. And if the answer to the last question is the latter, is it unethical to breed them?

The ones I saw were powder blue but the following image shows one about the same size;


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## southpython (Feb 18, 2010)

There might be dwarf rats but i breed tones of rodents and ive never herd of them.

Yeah ive had some people try and sell me a group and say there dwarf rats but they looked like runts to me : victory:

there could be, but ive never seen em.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

southpython said:


> There might be dwarf rats but i breed tones of rodents and ive never herd of them.
> 
> Yeah ive had some people try and sell me a group and say there dwarf rats but they looked like runts to me : victory:
> 
> there could be, but ive never seen em.


The ones I saw may have just been runts too. She was claiming they were dwarves though, so I don't know.
As I said, no rat experience!

I mean, I've had mouse litters where a tiny runt will crop up. Perfectly formed but tiny, as most runts are.
I've never thought to call it a dwarf mouse!


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## Horatio (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm pretty sure that i have read that true dwarf rats don't exist in the UK - they're just poorly bred runts. They are, however, bred in the USA.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Yes there are true Dwarf rats in America and possibly elsewhere, too.

They could just be runty rats, and if so, it would not be ethical to breed from them. However with such a size difference as the one in your picture, if that rat is fully grown and appears otherwise healthy, has led a healthy life, had a healthy diet and is in proportion, it seems likely that it is so much smaller due to a dwarfism gene.

There is no reason why such a mutation would not randomely appear in UK lines.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Absolutely - but to me those pics look like a kitten and an adult.

I dont know of anyone who's imported dwarves from overseas, so it's much more likely just to be a random runt or smaller line.

If they charge more for them, I'd take any claims with a huge pinch of salt.


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## southpython (Feb 18, 2010)

Luxy said:


> The ones I saw may have just been runts too. She was claiming they were dwarves though, so I don't know.
> As I said, no rat experience!
> 
> I mean, I've had mouse litters where a tiny runt will crop up. Perfectly formed but tiny, as most runts are.
> I've never thought to call it a dwarf mouse!


Yup i know you said u had no rat exsperience :2thumb:

99% runts id say.

ive had small mice but they get fed off like straight away when there ready to be away from there mums.


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Theres a person on here who claimed to have imported Dwarf rats... maybe i should take a leaf out of their book and should start calling the runty rescues which come in `dwarfs` lol.....



wolfmagicrattery said:


> i have 5 dawrf here am planning on to breed them in late july i imported them from the usa and ive breed a few my self i shall take photos of them two night and post them on here.i have noctied no health probs in the line at the moment and i hope this keeps going on


I dont belive it for a moment :whistling2:


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

tbh with rats, the bigger, fatter cuddly the better! the more hands it takes to pick them up the happier i am (healthy obviously lol)


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I agree Lisa. That does look like a kitten next to an adult - I guess we'll never know for sure!

Charging more for dwarf rats would be a bit odd, seeing as, if anything they would eat less....!


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## mrsphas (Apr 26, 2010)

no different then charging more for dumbos cos theyve funny ears
or nakeds cos theyve no fur, or albino/het/unusual marked snakes, perfect shelled tortoises, etc etc

'uniqueness' is what brings the bucks for the unscrupulous breeders, the sort of breeders whod let runts die in the cage from malnutrition rather than spend a couple of quid taking them to the vet, because its more natural, or discard a snakeling[?] tortoise hatchlling etc for being the wrong morph/not perfect

same as with anything, new morphs cost more than youre average [for example] corn snake, but underneath its still a cornsnake, a dwarf rat, skinny pig, rainbow striped boa [ok a little extreme i know] is still what it is, the price however isnt

show me where breeding for albino or solid red or black or whatever, trying to breed more of a particular pattern, breeeding for dwarfism, harley,etc enhances and forwards the breed? and yes id rather all rats were agouti top eared, is why i rescue not breed, fed up of taking so called good breeders [and i AM talking registered not byb] discards

look in the mirror, then point the finger


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Bitter much, mrsphas? It certainly sounds that way.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

mattm said:


> Charging more for dwarf rats would be a bit odd, seeing as, if anything they would eat less....!


Ah yes, but when people see the money to be made out of labeling a rat as something new and exotic, they can charge what they like! There'll always be someone out there willing to pay over the odds if they think they're getting something unique.


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## mrsphas (Apr 26, 2010)

Minerva said:


> Bitter much, mrsphas? It certainly sounds that way.


why would i be bitter? i have nothing to be bitter about, scurry away under your rock and go be judgemental about someone who'll cry, i left that sort of bullying behind me long ago

animals that i have are all in a loving forever home, for the rest of their natural, be they two legged instead of four, one winged, no feathered, wrong colour, wrong breeding, mis bred, wrong markings, cracked shelled, wonky tailed misaligned jaw, or just plain unwanted cos the new fad has come along, whatever, id rather rescue breeders flyblows than be a breeder

just saying it like it is

that is that
endorsed and registered breeders are doing all that i mentioned and more under the guise of for the betterment of the breeding/health/animal itself blah blah blah
when the truth is,
they do it for their own amusement, to have that something someone else hasnt and for an extra cent or two on the price
if it wasnt the case then all animals would be their natural colouring, size, fur,without hld, hip dysplasia, syringomyella, and people would be satisfied with having a pet, not the latest designer fad and thousands, yes thousands of animals a year wouldnt be culled, rehomed, destroyed or in rescues, raoming the streets or being siezed

if the truth is too close to home
then thats not my fault


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

What are you doing on a forum that pretty nearly exclusively deals with breeders and keepers of all of these types of animals mrsphas?

You're entitled to your opinion but please don't go on a rampage verbally assaulting everyone who doesn't do things the way you'd prefer.
Besides, accusing others of bullying when they stand up to you and your opinion is going WILDLY off topic.

You've said your piece. We see your point. Thanks for contributing. Anyone else have an opinion on the original post?


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## southpython (Feb 18, 2010)

mrsphas;6143158/ said:


> if *my Opinion* is too close to home
> then thats not my fault


Edited that for you, its not the truth, its your opinion :2thumb:


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

southpython said:


> Edited that for you, its not the truth, its your opinion :2thumb:


I meant to say that too! So... YEAH! :lol2:


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## Myth (May 22, 2009)

Luxy said:


> Anyone else have an opinion on the original post?


*** shoves thread back on track *** :whistling2:

I've got a runty mouse here from my last litter who has defied all odds.
Survived the competition in large litter, and is now doing fine.
She looks pretty healthy now really - has filed out some.
Just a mini-runty-small mouse bless her.

...I've never thought to call her a dwarf mouse either !

Of course you'll get runts pop up in litters with pretty much any animal. 
But I guess if the aim was to breed for 'smallness' ?
I reckon someone could easily produce 'smaller' rats,
how healthy they'd be though is another matter.


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

I've bred a small rat once, not intentionally, i guess being an only baby and probably a runt.

This is him at 6 weeks old



















With his mum.









and at 8 weeks old, asleep in a standard loo roll tube, he was tiny.


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## southpython (Feb 18, 2010)

Ive just been through the rat shed and i had a runt ( dwarf? ) rat in my weaner tub! it was 10 weeks old and tiny!.

Well i didnt keep him and he was a nice meal for my pastel BP. But still it was strange :gasp:


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

Aw Sarah, look at that little guy in the toilet roll tube, he's so tiny!


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

x Sarah x said:


> I've bred a small rat once, not intentionally, i guess being an only baby and probably a runt.
> 
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/sezzy5889/P3315548.jpg


I find it strange that an only baby was so small - unless mum had trouble lactating to begin with and he didn't feed properly - I had a rescue mummy have a single baby and he was a right little podger, and now looks fully grown at 13 weeks! He had no competition so literally ate all the pies!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

Myth said:


> *** shoves thread back on track *** :whistling2:
> 
> I've got a runty mouse here from my last litter who has defied all odds.
> .
> ...


being a dwarf isn't being a runt.It's congenital.Characterized by short thick limbs,largish head ,overall small stature .My dogs (french bulldogs) are dwarfs in the true sense,I assume netherland dwarfs rabbits are also as they have the characteristics and I wonder going on appearance(but don't know)if shetland ponies are,as a pose to miniature horses which don't have the dwarf characteristics .You only have to think of humans(umpa lumpas) in films such as the original Charlie and the choc factory to get the idea.I wouldn't say no to a true dwarf rat,I like dwarfs.Runts and miniature creatures are not the same.


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes, but the point is that the dwarf gene in rats isn't in this country...so if someone IS selling dwarfs, they're more likely to be selling runts!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I agree that's likely.


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

MistressSadako said:


> I find it strange that an only baby was so small - unless mum had trouble lactating to begin with and he didn't feed properly - I had a rescue mummy have a single baby and he was a right little podger, and now looks fully grown at 13 weeks! He had no competition so literally ate all the pies!


Sometimes having only one baby in a litter means there isn't enough stimulation to produce milk, so maybe she just wasn't producing much milk because there was no demand for it, she was a great mum to all her litters when they were of a good size  
When i realised he wasn't growing i began supplementing his diet with lactol, he grew to a good size but still a lot smaller than your average male rat, at 16 weeks he was about the size of a 10 week old rat and didn't grow any bigger up to the day he passed away.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

sarahc said:


> being a dwarf isn't being a runt.It's congenital.Characterized by short thick limbs,largish head ,overall small stature .My dogs (french bulldogs) are dwarfs in the true sense,I assume netherland dwarfs rabbits are also as they have the characteristics and I wonder going on appearance(but don't know)if shetland ponies are,as a pose to miniature horses which don't have the dwarf characteristics .*You only have to think of humans(umpa lumpas) in films such as the original Charlie and the choc factory to get the idea.*I wouldn't say no to a true dwarf rat,I like dwarfs.Runts and miniature creatures are not the same.


Oh my Lord! Edit that before a little person reads it and takes offense!
:roll2:


And we're not saying they are the same, but that some people might label them as such in order to sell them as something exotic!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

wasn't meant to be offensive to people of small stature,internet does come across all wrong sometimes.I've just remembered although not sure how I could have forgotten that I went to a house belonging to a woman called Shirley who had rats that she was marketing as tea cup rats.I bet I'm not the only one on here who's had the misfortune to cross her path.They weren't what I went to buy but she showed them to me.They were smaller than usual but not dwarfs,presumably selectively bred for size,quite pretty.After I met her I had a barrage of emails wanting to swap some for mice but I declined on the grounds that she was a nutter and not a nice nutter.I read midoris post about the rats with the tiny tails and wondered if they might be dwarfs as spinal problems can be an issue.They must crop up now and again.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

mrsphas your post did make me laugh, thanks for that. Wow - talk about jumping down necks!



> no different then charging more for dumbos cos theyve funny ears
> or nakeds cos theyve no fur, or albino/het/unusual marked snakes, perfect shelled tortoises, etc etc


And who DOES exactly do that? Because I know of a LOT of breeders that breed dumbo, hairless and the like and charge the same price for them as any other rat. Now I never said I was against charging more for an animal because it is a new mutation or considered rarer or more "unique" as you put it - but I am not "for" it either. In one hand, providing they're going to good homes and the breeder is reputable, they can charge what they like if people are willing to pay. Obviously if people do not want to pay the price, breeders will be forced to reduce the price of such animals.

You asked how breeding for mutations furthers or improves the breed - well that's a very subjective question isn't it? Not one that can be answered in a post, either. But I will say this...if you are so worried about what humans are doing to animals and if you think breeding for mutations is wrong, perhaps you should take a look at your own practices, because even if you KEEP animals you are being a hypocrite, because you wouldn't want to be involved in keeping them, would you, if you think everything should be left to nature?

Also a point - mutations can only be multiplied. Humans can't "make" them appear in lines. Nature does that.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

sarahc said:


> wasn't meant to be offensive to people of small stature,internet does come across all wrong sometimes.I've just remembered although not sure how I could have forgotten that I went to a house belonging to a woman called Shirley who had rats that she was marketing as tea cup rats.I bet I'm not the only one on here who's had the misfortune to cross her path.They weren't what I went to buy but she showed them to me.They were smaller than usual but not dwarfs,presumably selectively bred for size,quite pretty.After I met her I had a barrage of emails wanting to swap some for mice but I declined on the grounds that she was a nutter and not a nice nutter.I read midoris post about the rats with the tiny tails and wondered if they might be dwarfs as spinal problems can be an issue.They must crop up now and again.


I know, it just made me laugh when I read it! 

The woman you were dealing with doesn't sound very nice. See that's the problem, she might be the type of person who breeds selectively for size, but at the same time ignores any other complication that might pop up, in blind pursuit of uniqueness, money, or both.

If a genuine dwarf rat did crop up in someone's litter, and that person did choose to multiply that trait in order to achieve a new "type", it would be the exact same as the way people have bred certain types of dogs.

But it's when people start trying to exaggerate these new traits that we encounter huge problems - like people breeding shih-tzus for shorter and shorter snouts, sometimes resulting in massive breathing problems or even cleft palates (which I've personally seen in shih-tzus and it is heartbreaking.) I do think shih-tzus are adorable dogs, but it makes me sad to see how some people breed them so poorly.

See this is why I posed this question originally! A new colour morph on a captive bred snake doesn't really have an impact on that snake's quality of life. However, breeding an animal to have a different physical shape, which may contribute to severe spinal problems among other things, is another thing entirely.

Great answers so far everybody, I'm enjoying this discussion!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*oddities*

it's interesting stuff.I had a mouse born with two noses.Just the moist velvety bit at the end with a neat row of four nostrils,the head was larger than a normal mouse,it looked a bit like a vole.I kept it and just by chance saw an appeal for a litter of american bulldogs that had been dumped at a rescue,with the exact same noses.It's a rare sort of cleft palate.The mouse lived out it's life normally but I never bred from it and culled it's relations.Thats the only true abnormality that I have ever experienced in the rodents that I've bred.If I get a dwarf mouse I'll definately keep it.I do think it's more likely to appear in occasional tailless animals that pop out in peoples breeding lines.


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## faygal (Jan 8, 2011)

There are definitely dwarf rats that are not runts.They are about 1/3 the size of normal rats.They can occur in a litter of normal size rat kits.They tend to be more active than normal size rats and reportedly have no fear.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

faygal said:


> There are definitely dwarf rats that are not runts.They are about 1/3 the size of normal rats.They can occur in a litter of normal size rat kits.They tend to be more active than normal size rats and reportedly have no fear.


 Pretty much summed up every runt I've ever known. All mine have been fearless and brainless.. little man syndrome maybe?!


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## Emma10 (Dec 29, 2012)

Esarosa said:


> Pretty much summed up every runt I've ever known. All mine have been fearless and brainless.. little man syndrome maybe?!



I've had a few runty rats in my time. They're just that - runts. My runtiest runt (haha) was just like that - fearless!

I've never heard of people breeding dwarf rats, I'm pretty sure they as a species dont exist. Its just like people - I'm an adult female who is 5 foot, I'm not a dwarf though!


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## levinas (Feb 12, 2013)

Ive had a dwarf chinchilla pop up in breeding, apparantly the gene came over in standard chins brought in from Canada years ago.Recessive in nature it'll lurk in the background and come out when two carriers meet.I only mention as another, now retired, long term show breeder claimed a dwarf had been born to her herd some years ago.She went on to note the 'overly friendly nature' of the dwarf chinchilla.Mine would run to front of cage, climb bars to follow me, begging to be let out-fearless and a little bit stoopid.
Dwarf chins could be identified from runts by the short backbone, which resulted in a squat, shortened plump body and head that looks larger ratio wise to the body.The existance of dwarf chins was verified by chairperson of the NCS who told me of their provinance.


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