# Implications of slow growth?



## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi all,
I've had a chile rose from a sling from either 2007 or 2008 BTS show.
But... it's still a sling, it's moulted maybe once or twice since i've had it, three times at most, and gone from ~1cm LS to ~1.5cm LS.

I'm not fussed it's not growing, as it barely gets fed (hence why its not really growing). It's always had a plump abdomen and looks quite rotund at the moment, although it hasn't been fed since easter as i'm not at home in term time so my mum just gives it water and i haven't gotten round to buying more crickets yet...

But my question is... does anyone know if this will affect its adult size/lifespan etc. I can't imagine it would, and if i thought anything it may lengthen its lifespan as its effectively 'dormant' for 99% of the time.

Cheers 
Elsa


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

why keep it if your not home to feed it dont you think its out of order


----------



## Jonb1982 (Feb 20, 2011)

Why is it out of order? its a rosea, it doesnt need feeding often, it gets water, has a plump abdomen, its lasted 4 years so far so im guessing its quite happy!


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

Jonb1982 said:


> Why is it out of order? its a rosea, it doesnt need feeding often, it gets water, has a plump abdomen, its lasted 4 years so far so im guessing its quite happy!


i know they can fast for weeks but whos there when it does want feeding my view might be wrong if you ant got the time for them move them on ps i have 5 that size get feed once a week and never turned food down


----------



## Jonb1982 (Feb 20, 2011)

pcharlton said:


> i know they can fast for weeks but whos there when it does want feeding my view might be wrong if you ant got the time for them move them on


its more likely to fast if you try feed it too often, the OP's feeding regime is fine and her spider will have a lovely long life!


----------



## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Elsa said:


> But my question is... does anyone know if this will affect its adult size/lifespan etc. I can't imagine it would, and if i thought anything it may lengthen its lifespan as its effectively 'dormant' for 99% of the time.
> 
> Cheers
> Elsa


 
I would guess that your feeding regime equals what it would get in the wild so yes, it would lengthen its life by a long way compared to a specimen that is fed once or twice a week, every week through out its life. 




pcharlton said:


> why keep it if your not home to feed it dont you think its out of order


Why is it ? Can you give a good valid non anthropomorphic reason ?




pcharlton said:


> i know they can fast for *weeks* but whos there when it does want feeding my view might be wrong if you ant got the time for them move them on ps i have 5 that size get feed once a week and never turned food down



Many species of tarantulas can and will go for many MONTHS without feeding with no problems but species like Grammostola, Brachypelma and 
Aphonopelma take this to another level. 
Many of the so called 'desert' species will feed very irregularly due to the lack of suitable prey which is why they can live to over 30 years (42 years max ?) 
Unlike captive specimens which have an accelerated growth rate due to the regular and regimented feeding regime that almost all of us do.

Suggested reading >>>>  HERE  <<<<


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

PeterUK said:


> I would guess that your feeding regime equals what it would get in the wild so yes, it would lengthen its life by a long way compared to a specimen that is fed once or twice a week, every week through out its life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 you are spot on ant disagree with you pete lol how many years will that take to get to full size


----------



## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

pcharlton said:


> you are spot on ant disagree with you pete lol how many years will that take to get to full size


How long is a piece of string ?






ps. Depends on how much food it gets and how often


----------



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

My chile rose hasn't eaten for 3 month! I offer it food every week but she just runs away from it. I guess if she wanted it she would eat it.... Guess its all normal!


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> My chile rose hasn't eaten for 3 month! I offer it food every week but she just runs away from it. I guess if she wanted it she would eat it.... Guess its all normal!


mine are on pre killed and kept in over night ive five red and five normal chile and dont thinl they have refussed a meal


----------



## sn8ks4life (Jul 27, 2011)

pcharlton said:


> mine are on pre killed and kept in over night ive five red and five normal chile and dont thinl they have refussed a meal


doesn't matter, just because they will eat it doesn't mean they should..
believe it or not T's can and do get overweight, my T's sling throu to adult get fed 1-2 times a month tops..
tarantulas have a much slower metabolism than even snakes and they can be fed monthly so whats wrong with T's only eating monthly?? my chilis fasted for over a year before, not even in pre-moult.


----------



## retic lover (Sep 23, 2008)

I have a Green Bottle Blue thats nearly 5 years old and still a sling it eats when it wants to and it is a healthy plump little spider, I think your rose will be fine: victory:


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

retic lover said:


> I have a Green Bottle Blue thats nearly 5 years old and still a sling it eats when it wants to and it is a healthy plump little spider, I think your rose will be fine: victory:


omg 5 year old nice ts just had a adult female come this morning from tss


----------



## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

I have a Grammy here that didnt eat for 18 months and then moulted, still had a good sized abdomen after the moult and now is back on the food and waiting for her to make an egg sac


----------



## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks all, and Peter for the link, that's interesting to read.
That is what I guessed/hoped, that it will live longer/I'm not stunting it. 

To 'pcharlton' ... its a spider. It doesn't sit there and think it's getting hungry, and get sad as i'm not giving it crickets. As has been pointed out, in the wild they don't get to feed very often, they take what they can when they can. I was more looking for the biological 'implications', not a welfare debate, but thanks for the interesting debate nonetheless 

Elsa


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

Elsa said:


> Thanks all, and Peter for the link, that's interesting to read.
> That is what I guessed/hoped, that it will live longer/I'm not stunting it.
> 
> To 'pcharlton' ... its a spider. It doesn't sit there and think it's getting hungry, and get sad as i'm not giving it crickets. As has been pointed out, in the wild they don't get to feed very often, they take what they can when they can. I was more looking for the biological 'implications', not a welfare debate, but thanks for the interesting debate nonetheless
> ...


 i know that spiders can go for long time with out food i getting more to the point you dont seem to have time for the t while at uni i put my post up without reading your post very sorry and have a good time at uni lol


----------



## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

pcharlton said:


> i know that spiders can go for long time with out food i getting more to the point you dont seem to have time for the t while at uni i put my post up without reading your post very sorry and have a good time at uni lol


I dont' have time for it while i'm at uni, or the flatmates that would accept having spiders around... but at this rate when I graduate in another 4 years time, I'll still have the joys of growing a sling up  
I've only kept two from a collection of about 40, my other being a smithi, my first T got when i was 9, so she's about 11 now, and also seems very healthy on the new diet regime.

Bring on 2016 when i'll be able to feed them both 'properly' again all year round!


----------



## pcharlton (Mar 23, 2012)

bet you cant wait no wonder you cant rehome the t after keeping her that long its a killer in my first year at uni i had 50-60 tanks of malawis and a house to run and single dad plus a bus 2 trains to get there lol never mind placements ps the fish were gone in 2nd year and thank god for mums


----------



## Lordaradon (Oct 11, 2011)

interesting how people treat their t's differently, i kinda powerfeed mine to get them past early sling stages, taper it off after that tho


----------



## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

Its alright ... I fed her last night 










(NOM NOM NOM)


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

surely that's a joke?


----------



## spidersnake (Dec 1, 2009)

I don't think so as there is a pic. At the end of the day food is food.


----------



## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> surely that's a joke?


If it is a joke . . . I like your style Elsa !!! :2thumb:

If its not a joke . . . waste not, want not : victory:


----------



## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

better than just chucking it in the bin

My B. smithi only eats about once a year, I offer her food when I think of it but she rarely eats.


----------



## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> surely that's a joke?


Haha no its not a joke!

I'm hand rearing some baby rats and one died. The smithi wouldn't eat it so it got passed on


----------



## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

pcharlton said:


> i know that spiders can go for long time with out food i getting more to the point you dont seem to have time for the t while at uni i put my post up without reading your post very sorry and have a good time at uni lol


The wonderful thing about tarantulas is they're pets that really you don't need much time for really.



Elsa said:


> Haha no its not a joke!
> 
> I'm hand rearing some baby rats and one died. The smithi wouldn't eat it so it got passed on


As said, waste not want not


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Sorry, but I can't understand why you'd feed a mouse which is multiple times the size of the tarantula to a small juvenile? Not even the maths add up!
You might want to search for info on feeding rodents to tarantula, most of the advice says don't do it.


----------



## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> Sorry, but I can't understand why you'd feed a mouse which is multiple times the size of the tarantula to a small juvenile? Not even the maths add up!
> You might want to search for info on feeding rodents to tarantula, most of the advice says don't do it.


 
Sorry mate, I am with you on this just does'nt add up to me...


----------



## Lawnmower599 (Dec 21, 2011)

i mean the pic looks kinda funny 
lil spider eating a rat pup larger then it :lol2:
but calcium is not recommended for a tarantula 
i know it causes molting problems in larger tarantulas 
not sure about smaller tarantulas 
i would be against it really 

and most of the rat pup is still being wasted 
only a fraction would be eaten


----------



## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

I think it is a joke. Other than the obvious reasons not to feed them vertebrates, I can't imagine many people would hand rear baby rats and then when one dies, chuck it in the T's tank for it's dinner :gasp:

Surely you wouldn't have the heart to feed a pet that had passed on, to another of your pets.


----------



## steveuk2 (Oct 29, 2006)

what are the "obvious reasons" not to feed rat or mice pinks and any one got a link on details of for and against using them as food for t's?


----------



## Lawnmower599 (Dec 21, 2011)

steveuk2 said:


> what are the "obvious reasons" not to feed rat or mice pinks and any one got a link on details of for and against using them as food for t's?


tarantulas do not have bones 
so there is no need for them to get calcium
and feeding rats or mice to a tarantula will give them that calcium that they dont need 
its believe it makes the exo skeleton harder making it harder for the tarantula to molt 

some people feed a rat or mouse after a molt to purposely harden the exo skeleton but it should only be fed once a molt and not too often


----------



## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

steveuk2 said:


> what are the "obvious reasons" not to feed rat or mice pinks and any one got a link on details of for and against using them as food for t's?


Really too tired for posting links mate. 

Has been said that too much calcium makes for bad moults and the fact that mice, rats etc have a different sort of fat to T's and they cannot digest it.

Other reasons are more common sense....crix, locust, meal worms are cheaper and the T will consume all of it and not waste 80% plus. They can be gut loaded, making them more nutritious.

Plus there is no need to feed vertebrates to even the largest of T's!

EDIT: Beat me to it Lawnmower


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I doubt you'd find any report on such or any scientific research. What you will find is a pattern developing linking tarantula fed with such high protein and calcium diets to issues with moulting and loss of fangs. You could of course discount that as circumstantial. 

However, here's a link worth reading:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/8592327-post23.html

For me an important factor concerning the feeding of rodents, not related to diet, is the length of time it takes for them to consume such a large meal. That creates a smell, invites bacteria to multiply in the enclosure and attracts flies.


----------



## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> I doubt you'd find any report on such or any scientific research. What you will find is a pattern developing linking tarantula fed with such high protein and calcium diets to issues with moulting and loss of fangs. You could of course discount that as circumstantial.
> 
> However, here's a link worth reading:
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/8592327-post23.html
> ...


AGREED :no1:

The theory, and it is a theory, is open to debate. But why take the risk??? 

There are not benefits from feeding rodents, but may, MAY, be serious downfalls.


----------



## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Lawnmower599 said:


> lil spider eating a rat pup larger then it
> but *calcium* is not recommended for a tarantula


It is a 'pinky' rat pup and 'pinkies' in that stage of development have very little calcium in their barely formed bones so its a pointless argument on that subject. 




Veyron said:


> Other than the obvious reasons not to feed them vertebrates,


Which are ?




Veyron said:


> I can't imagine many people would hand rear baby rats and then when one dies, chuck it in the T's tank for it's dinner



Why not, its just a rat pup. Its not like it has been a long term pet with a personality (do rats have one ?)




Veyron said:


> Surely you wouldn't have the heart to feed a pet that had passed on, to another of your pets.


Its a little pink sausage with no personality that didnt do a lot, so whats the problem.




Veyron said:


> Has been said that too much calcium makes for bad moults and the fact that mice, rats etc have a different sort of fat to T's and they cannot digest it.


Who said this ? 
Got any links to papers describing this. Tarantulas ( all inverts as far as i know) do NOT have fat so how can they have a 'different sort' of fat ?



Veyron said:


> Other reasons are more common sense....crix, locust, meal worms are cheaper and the T will consume all of it and not waste 80% plus. They can be gut loaded, making them more nutritious.


Common sense ? 
If there is a dead rat or mouse pinkie or even an adult laying around that hasnt been used to feed a snake or another large animal so why buy crickets etc and waste money.
So feeding a small mammal to a T is wasting 80% plus of the prey animal. 
You have proof of this figure or is it just a random number you picked out ? 



Veyron said:


> Plus there is no need to feed vertebrates to even the largest of T's!


Why ?

Large Tarantulas in the wild will attack and eat ANY prey that is small enough to be over powered including many vertebrates.



Veyron said:


> The theory, and it is a theory, is open to debate. But why take the risk???


Yes it is a theory, so why the knee jerk reaction ? 

The only reason why I can see that feeding vertebrates on a regular basis is the smell of the rotting food bolas. If the size of the vertebrate prey is of a suitable size then this will be minimised.


----------



## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

I wouldn't feed em to any of my T's for no other reason then the smell and the mess.
The body fluids soak in to the sub', becomes a hassle.
Got no qualms about feeding them though other than that.


----------



## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

PeterUK said:


> It is a 'pinky' rat pup and 'pinkies' in that stage of development have very little calcium in their barely formed bones so its a pointless argument on that subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have put far too much time into this! 

A day old kitten has no personality, but if was your cats kitten, would you feed it to your dog if it (the kitten) died? If yes then I pity you!

It's not a knee jerk reaction, it's the 'not confirmed'. So I wont take the risk with my T's lives. I have no right to tell you otherwise, as it's your _money..._


----------



## Veyron (Mar 29, 2011)

And as for T's having no fat, please provide papers for this as all creatures rely on fat when food is scarce. It used to be considered snakes have no fat, but the have very large amounts.


----------



## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

Ahh i've opened up a can of worms here!
I'll try to justify most of the points brought up...

In regards to calcium... it definitely didn't eat any bones as it only ate a small amount of the part you can see it eating in the picture, although this may be a point for more 'appropriate sized' prey items. But i'm sure when i've fed rodents to spiders before, the ball of mush that they leave behind is relatively bony, so i don't think they actually ingest much calcium.

With regards to smell/bacteria... obviously i'm not going to leave it in there until its stinking rotten, and the enclosure isn't overly hot/humid so bacteria levels are relatively low. I let it 'take its fill' then immediately removed the rat and threw it away.

I've never (when i used to have many more T's) have one had a molt problem (touch wood) and i've often fed pinkies etc that were left over from small snakes to the spiders.

With regards to the 'its a pet so i shouldn't feed it'... I'd far rather see my 'pet' get eaten and used than throw in another prey item and waste my 'pet'. Seems pointless to kill another animal in its place if you have a naturally dead one. And yes... i've fed my mice that died of old age to snakes before... and the other rat pup and mouse baby that died yesterday got fed to a kestrel and a goshawk 


If a baby rosea came across a dead rat pup in the wild what would it do? I'm assuming (but feel free to challenge this) that it would have a munch. I don't see what would make mine eat some of it if it wasn't a natural behaviour as i didn't warm the rat/chop it up/wiggle it about. I literally put it in and an hour or so later the T had wandered over and started eating it.


Elsa


----------



## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Elsa said:


> In regards to calcium... it definitely didn't eat any bones as it only ate a small amount of the part you can see it eating in the picture, although this may be a point for more 'appropriate sized' prey items. But i'm sure when i've fed rodents to spiders before, the ball of mush that they leave behind is relatively bony, so i don't think they actually ingest much calcium.


Ive fed my large tarantula, including a T. blondi and L. klugi a rodent to support breeding. There was nothing left other than the skin.

I don't think its correct to suggest that because a tarantula is drawn to the mouse that therefore its good for it.

I don't doubt the possibility of large spiders eating rodents. But we have no idea how often that might occur, and once again I'd say its quite unlikely to happen for a small tarantula like the one in the picture.


----------



## Erinaceinae (Mar 26, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> Ive fed my large tarantula, including a T. blondi and L. klugi a rodent to support breeding. There was nothing left other than the skin.
> 
> I don't think its correct to suggest that because a tarantula is drawn to the mouse that therefore its good for it.
> 
> I don't doubt the possibility of large spiders eating rodents. But we have no idea how often that might occur, and once again I'd say its quite unlikely to happen for a small tarantula like the one in the picture.


Surely the skin is far more digestible than the bones/hair though?

And why would it eat it if it was 'bad' for it? It was fed last week so wasn't exactly ravenous, and why would it behave any differently coming across a dead rat in within a tank or in the wild?

I sound like i'm being a dick by just contradicting you i know! (sorry) But i do find this genuinely interesting


----------



## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

If a spiders skin is formed of mostly protien and not added to after its formed and molted into then calcium would not harden it up after a molt.
There is some evidence of aussie spiders eating verts or at least bones being found in burrows and the big orb weavers sometimes snag a bird.


----------

