# Craig Busch - 'Lion Man' - UK Tour?



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi guys

Just wondered peoples opinions....

..celebrated ambassador for big cat conservation?



..or self publicising, wife beating animal abuser?



discuss.....



Cheers

Andy


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

more the first one, and tbh if my oh cheated on me with my employees, in my house, in my buisness, after my party, id go a bit mental too.
whatever people say about white lion and tiger conservation and how un/ethical it is (same with the reps), or about hoes some of his animals ar reared he did do a lot with barbary lions, and that has to be worth something.


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## Kerriebaby (May 12, 2009)

I dont like him...dont like his set ups either ( those enclosures look way too small )

didnt know he beat his wife tho...makes me dislike him even more.

Steve Irwin did it better


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

I think I would lose my temper if I found my misses in bed with 2 others in my house! At least he is getting the white tiger and lion population up, Did he ever get the park back?


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

oh my god.....

the enclosures were plenty big (the permanent ones anyway, at the start they were a bit small, but only when you compare them to safari parks, and if they had looked 'more natural' then it wouldn't be an issue.

considering most of them had daily outside time they were ok, same way you can keep a dog indoors so long as you let it out or take it for walks every so often.

and since hes been ousted from the park due to money issues and a subsequent falling out with his mother there have been several welfare complaints, the debt has tripled, 3 people have been attacked by big cats.... he should be reinstated immiediatley imo.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

This is well worth a read. Not just the blog, but the comments as well.

I know what 'camp' I'm in, but I'd like some other opinions before I go on



Craig Busch and Zion Wildlife Gardens


Cheers

Andy


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

dont like him at all a big show off with to much money and cages are to small no matter what anyone says he also puts his and other peoples lifes in danger the way he works


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

He doesn't have a lot of money, and his plans when he gets enough money was to make the cats lives even better with better enclosures etc...

His wife slept cheated on him? SO WHAT! his private life has nothing to do with me, cheating happens in a hell of a lot of homes EVERYDAY!

What he did for the cats and how much he loves them is what matters... and its a huge shame whats happened to him regarding the park.


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

> Any zoo which goes down the road of breeding unnaturally coloured animals, animals harbouring harmful genetic traits has divorced itself from conservation. They have become ANTI CONSERVATION. They are not just producing animals which are useless, but animals which can never be released into the wild. Nor can their cubs or their cubs cubs or their cubs cubs cubs, They are freaks!
> 
> Further to that the zoos which keep such animals are taking up captive spaces which could be used for genuine important conservation work. There is real need for places to keep various species in captive breeding programmes. Places like Zion Wildlife Gardens have the spaces but prefer to fill these with 'junk' animals.



Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...

Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

hmmmm... interesting reading. I can't say that the guys show has ever had me gripped. 
I'll start with the colour morphs... now whilst i cant say I'm against the captive breeding of colour morphs (hell, i keep enough myself) I could never condone the breeding of genetic mutations in the name of conservation. the fact that he claims to be doing just that is -frankly- rediculous. it wouldnt be so bad if he wasn't kidding himself that conservation is his main agenda. 
if a colour mutation popped up in his zoo then i can understand him using it as a way of pulling in patrons but not as a breeding animal. so yes they maybe 'freaks' (as it was so cruedly put) but they are striking and i can see that the public will love them and so would have a positive effect on the park but i highly doubt that a reintroduced lion producing white cubs is going to benifit wild populations any. 
on the subject of hybrids... these i am generally on the fence about - maybe even a little bit anti. I dont have an issue with people keeping hybrids as pets so long as when they are sold the person purchasing is fully informed as to exactly what they are and that they are not to be bred into pure lines. 
lions and tigers however are not pets in any sense of the word and hybridising these species is nothing more than pointless. if he wants to play with genetics and produce colour morphs he should be breeding leopard geckos or fancy mice as a side line. neither of these are ever going to be reintroduced into wild stock as they contain so many recessive colour genes already so he can hardly do any more damage to them...
declawing is deplorable and if The Lion Man did indeed get his animals declawed out of ignorance as has been suggested then it really is proof positive that he isn't as knowledgable as some are trying to claim him to be. i dont doubt that he has a love of animals and that he cares for them but that doesn't make him an expert does it? I know people that love wolves... doesn't mean that they are going to try and turn one into a pet...
I'm not against the keeping of exotics either in zoos or in private hands but i do belive that if some one is keeping such large and potentially lethal animals that there should be a little more caution used and that it should be done ethically and responsibly. showing off how 'tame' your tiger is cannot really be considered any different than owning a breed on covered by the dangerous dogs act except in degree... maybe he doesn't see it like this but all i can think is that he's trying to make himself look 'cool'.

Bless him.

maybe I'm doing him a huge injustice, after all i have not met him in person but i am an animal keeper and do not like seeing the exotic keeping hobby marred by prats that think playing with DWA's is a great way to show off. its just encoraging the idea that DWA's make cute and cuddly pets that can be taken out for walkies.
sigh. 
alot of the people who are arguing this article clearly have no experience with animals and therefore couldn't possibly be expected to understand why this guy is a bit of an idiot with a fluffy TV program that makes him appear as cute and cuddly as his colour morph tigers...

Kat


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## Kerriebaby (May 12, 2009)

Twiglet said:


> hmmmm... interesting reading. I can't say that the guys show has ever had me gripped.
> I'll start with the colour morphs... now whilst i cant say I'm against the captive breeding of colour morphs (hell, i keep enough myself) I could never condone the breeding of genetic mutations in the name of conservation. the fact that he claims to be doing just that is -frankly- rediculous. it wouldnt be so bad if he wasn't kidding himself that conservation is his main agenda.
> if a colour mutation popped up in his zoo then i can understand him using it as a way of pulling in patrons but not as a breeding animal. so yes they maybe 'freaks' (as it was so cruedly put) but they are striking and i can see that the public will love them and so would have a positive effect on the park but i highly doubt that a reintroduced lion producing white cubs is going to benifit wild populations any.
> on the subject of hybrids... these i am generally on the fence about - maybe even a little bit anti. I dont have an issue with people keeping hybrids as pets so long as when they are sold the person purchasing is fully informed as to exactly what they are and that they are not to be bred into pure lines.
> ...


100% agree with you :2thumb:


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

> alot of the people who are arguing this article clearly have no experience with animals and therefore couldn't possibly be expected to understand why this guy is a bit of an idiot with a fluffy TV program that makes him appear as cute and cuddly as his colour morph tigers...



To be honest, theres no cruelty involved with what he does so i couldn't really care less.

He can breed and use them to earn money and get the punters in for all i care, but the animals are fed, watered, exercised and happy and thats all that matters to me, he can be an idiot all he likes, and it will if it hasn't already land him in a worse off place eventually, but until that time, the cats aren't suffering!

Some of his white lions he actually got from conservation centres in Africa! so they're doing exactly the same as hes doing, breeding and swapping white cats for now blood, so why is it only him that gets the finger pointed at? this is what pisses me off about situations like this! just because hes been on TV and a well known person, that makes him the bad guy! if they're going to slate one person then they should be expected to slate everyone else who does it!

anyway, i'm not going to sit here and argue about someone i don't even know, i have better things to be doing with my time, because like ever discussion thread on this forum, everyone likes to have the last word, and the thread just won't come to an end until its been locked.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

x Sarah x said:


> Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...
> 
> Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?


The difference is, people on here and elsewhere are breeding these morphs for pets, they are not being bred for conservation pruposes they are a hobby, a domestic animal. Now, if someone was breeding these morphs and claiming it was for conservation that would be a lie. There is no conservation value in breeding these morphs. Many wouldn't even survive in the wild as they would be too easy for predators to spot/prey to spot them. They have no conservation value as they have been bred to differ significantly from the wild type. 

The same is the case with the white tigers in the zoo. The breeding of white tigers has no conservation value, they are not a subspecies of Bengal Tigers, they are something that people find attractive and want to see. When it comes to conservation, they have little value especially as they are highly inbred to be white and produce all these fancy tiger morphs. Breeding fancy coloured tigers is no different that breeding fancy coloured corn snakes. They are pretty to look at but are no use for conservation. These aren't animals that would be suitable for releasing their offspring into the wild.

Personally I think zoos should be for conserving a species, not for trying to breed all kinds of fancy morphs like is done for the pet trade.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

Twiglet said:


> hmmmm... interesting reading. I can't say that the guys show has ever had me gripped.
> I'll start with the colour morphs... now whilst i cant say I'm against the captive breeding of colour morphs (hell, i keep enough myself) I could never condone the breeding of genetic mutations in the name of conservation. the fact that he claims to be doing just that is -frankly- rediculous. it wouldnt be so bad if he wasn't kidding himself that conservation is his main agenda.
> if a colour mutation popped up in his zoo then i can understand him using it as a way of pulling in patrons but not as a breeding animal. so yes they maybe 'freaks' (as it was so cruedly put) but they are striking and i can see that the public will love them and so would have a positive effect on the park but i highly doubt that a reintroduced lion producing white cubs is going to benifit wild populations any.
> on the subject of hybrids... these i am generally on the fence about - maybe even a little bit anti. I dont have an issue with people keeping hybrids as pets so long as when they are sold the person purchasing is fully informed as to exactly what they are and that they are not to be bred into pure lines.
> ...


If only you'd posted sooner I could have just said I agree 100% rather than typing out my own reply :lol2:


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

lol my bad silversteno... I'll be quicker next time! :2thumb:



> anyway, i'm not going to sit here and argue about someone i don't even know, i have better things to be doing with my time, because like ever discussion thread on this forum, everyone likes to have the last word, and the thread just won't come to an end until its been locked.


and therein lies the fun of it :lol2:



> Some of his white lions he actually got from conservation centres in Africa! so they're doing exactly the same as hes doing, breeding and swapping white cats for now blood, so why is it only him that gets the finger pointed at? this is what pisses me off about situations like this! just because hes been on TV and a well known person, that makes him the bad guy! if they're going to slate one person then they should be expected to slate everyone else who does it!


fair comment. makes the african 'conservation' centres as bad he is though really. I'm not saying he's a bad guy at heart i just think he's being a bit of a misinformed tit...

Kat


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

x Sarah x said:


> Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...
> 
> Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?





x Sarah x said:


> He doesn't have a lot of money, and his plans when he gets enough money was to make the cats lives even better with better enclosures etc...
> 
> His wife slept cheated on him? SO WHAT! his private life has nothing to do with me, cheating happens in a hell of a lot of homes EVERYDAY!
> 
> What he did for the cats and how much he loves them is what matters... and its a huge shame whats happened to him regarding the park.





x Sarah x said:


> To be honest, *theres no cruelty involved* with what he does so i couldn't really care less.
> 
> He can breed and use them to earn money and get the punters in for all i care, but the animals are fed, watered, exercised and happy and thats all that matters to me, he can be an idiot all he likes, and it will if it hasn't already land him in a worse off place eventually, but until that time, the cats aren't suffering!
> 
> ...


 
The white lion issues are slightly different to the white tigers but neither are the point of my post (personally I believe neither have any more conservation value than the lobster people (google it!) i.e. I have no problem with them existing and long may they prosper, but to suggest they should be selected for and breed extensively to increase their population in the wild is ludicrous - it is also a million miles away from captive/domestic morph breeding)


..the main point was that there is empirical evidence for cruelty- the report published that proves he declaws almost all of his cats (http://www.declawing.com/ http://www.pawproject.com/html/, ) ....the evidence that he removes young cats from their mothers when they are days old in order to imprint them (conservation? errr I think not) and the evidence that he is a little less than gentle with them. Top that with the fact that he took three white lion )cubs on tour (six shows a day) that were three weeks old - *without their mother*! This was actually on one of his shows, so isn't even a 'propaganda' thing! I would argue your notion that 'no cruelty is involved'....

Here's another link

YouTube - Craig Busch 60 Minutes Part 1

yes - the vid is a little biased, but even if you just watch what happens at 1.44 (with sound) it should remove the rose tinted spectacles a little.



I don't know him, but the more I read (on both sides) the less I like him and the more concerned I am about the numbers of supporters in this country who have been sucked in by the cute and fluffy cuddling a big cat thing.


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## darloLee (Apr 9, 2009)

naja-naja said:


> oh my god.....
> 
> the enclosures were plenty big (the permanent ones anyway, at the start they were a bit small, but only when you compare them to safari parks, and if they had looked 'more natural' then it wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> ...





x Sarah x said:


> He doesn't have a lot of money, and his plans when he gets enough money was to make the cats lives even better with better enclosures etc...
> 
> His wife slept cheated on him? SO WHAT! his private life has nothing to do with me, cheating happens in a hell of a lot of homes EVERYDAY!
> 
> What he did for the cats and how much he loves them is what matters... and its a huge shame whats happened to him regarding the park.


what they said :whistling2:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

x Sarah x said:


> Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...
> 
> Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?


No coz we breed for captive use.We are not breeding with the intent to release.

But when your breeding for a species future there is no place for mutations of the species.I'm not saying that the mutation animal shouldn't live.But it should be spayed/castrated and never bred from if your about Conservation.

White tiger = Conservation = :naughty:.
White lion = Conservation = :naughty:.

If mother nature throughs a mutation and it live and it does happen then fair enough.But man deffo shouldn't be invloed in mutations if there about Conservation.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

well, white tigers are a rare mutation and he is trying to conserve that, there are less then 300 white tigers in captivity and less then 100 of those are pure bengal, the rest are bengalxsiberian crosses, this is a mutation that needs to be carefully cultivated and managed, as it is so easily inbred, much work has been done by henry doorly zoo and others, including mr busch.
he took animals to hand-raise them so they will be tame, he is an animals trainer, and uses these animals in films, commercials and such, this is common practice in the exotic cat world. white tigers can and used to live very well in the wild, they have been depicted as early as 1200 by european traders, they became extinct in the wild not because of camoflague, but because they were systematiclly wiped out by humans, chosen over their orange bretherin for trophy hunts and capture for royal menageries.i will bet you any money that if a bunch of white tigers were born in the wild today, the mortality rate would not be much higher then normal if humans didn't kill/capture any.
declawing is also routine with these animals, most people would be familiar with the archiac system that requires 3weeks rehab afterward, the new method (i.e. first used in the '90's) uses lasersurgery and the kitten is up and running around that day, and removing them to imprint them is part and parcel of taming them (if he didn't he wouldn't be able to enter the cage)


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

adamntitch said:


> dont like him at all a big show off with to much money and cages are to small no matter what anyone says he also puts his and other peoples lifes in danger the way he works


and i bet all your animals have huge naturalistic enclosures dont they?i think they look spacious enough and the animals look well. it is satisfactory to very good in my opinion, not stunning, but good.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

the other thing we have to consider is that allthough zoo enclousures usually look good, that is for the visitors, if you went and saw a private collection of exotic cats, they would be in much different cages that, altho they may not look snazzy, would provide for all of the animals needs. (water shelter, space and enrichment in the form of toys or a companion)


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## Reptiledan (Jun 15, 2008)

Skyespirit86 said:


> and i bet all your animals have huge naturalistic enclosures dont they?i think they look spacious enough and the animals look well. it is satisfactory to very good in my opinion, not stunning, but good.


Totally agree


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

naja-naja said:


> declawing is also routine with these animals, most people would be familiar with the archiac system that requires 3weeks rehab afterward, the new method (i.e. first used in the '90's) uses lasersurgery and the kitten is up and running around that day, and removing them to imprint them is part and parcel of taming them (if he didn't he wouldn't be able to enter the cage)


 
I absolutely and vehemently disagree with the assumption that declawing is 'routine'. It is a barbaric mutilation that severely impinges on the welfare of the cat leading to crippling arthritis and countless behavioural issues in later life. All so he can go in for a cuddle in safety?  give me a break!


As for your second point, I'm a little confused? Either he is breeding for conservation and should be attempting to keep them as wild as possible ready for their eventual release....or he is keeping them as circus performers.

Either way has many pros and cons but they are mutually exclusive he is either for conservation or for 'look at me, I'm in a cage with a whole lion family, riding on the males back - aren't I cool?'.......


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> well, white tigers are a rare mutation and he is trying to conserve that, there are less then 300 white tigers in captivity


Yes but if all white tigers died out that not a big loss coz as long as the species exist it can be thrown out by the species again.

There are only around 300 Asian lions in the wild and when there gone there gone.This is where Conservation should be going.Conservation is for species not mutations.


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## jc_reptiles (Jan 17, 2009)

Im so glad someone else picked up on the great article Peter Dickinson wrote on this excuse for a conservationist. 

white tigers and lions need about as much conservation work as royal morphs do. Why reproduce aniamls with a genetic defect in order to safe a species?


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

bothrops said:


> I absolutely and vehemently disagree with the assumption that declawing is 'routine'. It is a barbaric mutilation that severely impinges on the welfare of the cat leading to crippling arthritis and countless behavioural issues in later life. All so he can go in for a cuddle in safety? give me a break!
> 
> 
> As for your second point, I'm a little confused? Either he is breeding for conservation and should be attempting to keep them as wild as possible ready for their eventual release....or he is keeping them as circus performers.
> ...


 And what is your evidence for the amputation actualy taking place in the first place? Because either the link that explains the operation is wrong or your wrong for saying that it happens! I have looked at every picture I could find of his big cats and they all have all of their toes which in the link you provided says they would not have with that operation. So on your point 'i'm confused'!


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Jczreptiles said:


> And what is your evidence for the amputation actualy taking place in the first place? Because either the link that explains the operation is wrong or your wrong for saying that it happens! I have looked at every picture I could find of his big cats and they all have all of their toes which in the link you provided says they would not have with that operation. So on your point 'i'm confused'!


De-clawing is not amputation of the toes, it is removal of the animals retractable claws.


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

Fixx said:


> De-clawing is not amputation of the toes, it is removal of the animals retractable claws.


 Have a look at the link that was so kindly provided by the OP Craig Busch and Zion Wildlife Gardens it shows the amputation line.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Jczreptiles said:


> Have a look at the link that was so kindly provided by the OP Craig Busch and Zion Wildlife Gardens it shows the amputation line.


Ahh in that case please accept my apologies, I was merely going on the part you quoted.


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

Fixx said:


> Ahh in that case please accept my apologies, I was merely going on the part you quoted.


 That could be wrong mind, either that or the fact that they were amputated in the first place is not true.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Jczreptiles said:


> I have looked at every picture I could find of his big cats and they all have all of their toes


De-clawed have toes.It's claws they don't have.The cut line is just infount of the toe pad. = toe but no claw.


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

gazz said:


> De-clawed have toes.It's claws they don't have.The cut line is just infount of the toe pad. = toe but no claw.
> image


 Yeah but you would notice that in the pics!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Jczreptiles said:


> Yeah but you would notice that in the pics!


No, you wouldn't.

Declawed cats' paws LOOK normal... but they are missing the last bone of each toe, which is the bone with the claw attached to it. Because the claws are retractable, that bone is normally hidden within a sort of fold in the toe pad - you only ever see a clawed cat's claw tips "outside" that fold if they're very long or if they've extended the claw.

And yes, I think declawing a cat is mutilation - I've seen first hand what sorts of *mild* behavioural issues it can cause (Tinkerbell, my stepmum's cat, was the worst biter I've ever known - and she did it because she couldn't defend herself with her claws; she seemed to do "pre-emptive strikes" with her teeth instead.) I haven't seen the more severe side of behavioural problems or physical problems it can cause, but that only means I haven't dealt with as many declawed cats as rescues or shelters do.


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## x Sarah x (Nov 16, 2007)

I don't think Craig's first decision was to do conservation work, he wanted to do a program, and to give him a good image and guarantee people would watch the program was to base it on conservation.... which he did to a certain extent.

But what he also did and what others urged him to go into, was to train big cats for TV commercials and films, which he did.

Then i think he found himself stuck between training and conservation work. People were happy with what he was doing with regards to conservation, and the park was receiving huge donations to help with that...on the other hand his training was successful and he had many stunning (white) and friendly cats that were perfect for what the film industry wanted....

In my opinion he was just trying to juggle two things at once that are complete opposites to one another, it caused uproar for people who were one sided to either TV or wildlife.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

A keeper got killed at the park the other day


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm on the fence, i really liked him but some of this stuff shows him in a very bad light:hmm:


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

SiUK said:


> A keeper got killed at the park the other day


Another one? That's three so far isn't it?


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

Fixx said:


> Another one? That's three so far isn't it?


He may not be the best person but it seems the place is going to pot without him. I've read loads of stories about how they can't run it without him!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

about_a_girluk said:


> He may not be the best person but it seems the place is going to pot without him. I've read loads of stories about how they can't run it without him!


That's only due to the fact that he was the only one that interacted with the animals, he was the one they were/are imprinted on. He removes the babies from their mother within hours and then hand rears them (in complete contrast to true conservation efforts (i.e. 'keep them wild!')) If he has to do film work etc then one or two animals could almost be excused, expecially if they were acting as ambassadors for the species and all the other cats were truely conservation efforts.


Unfortunately ALL the cats born at ZWG are treated in this way. He knew full well that he was conditioning ALL his animals to be submissive to him only. I have no idea what he expected to happen to them should he die. As it stands he has found out without such a thing happening.




Just a point about white tigers. Anyone who knows anything about conservation knows that you attempt to maintain genetic diversity at all costs, but within the species specific karyotype. The white tiger is a recessive, genetic mutation that has only been found in the wild in the same way as albino royals and albino corns. Yes they are naturally occuring (ALL base morphs are!), but they have ZERO value from a conservation point of view. Look closely at any white tiger - most are cross eyed, they die prematurely from kidney failure (in the same way as domestic siamese cats do). Many are born with horrendous facial deformities. To top it all most are not even pure bengal, many are cross bred. Craig also breeds ligers. I have no issue with hybrids per se, but clearly they have no conservation value AT ALL.


The only dilema Craig ever had was which would make him more money - white tigers or ligers. As it stands the ONLY value a white tiger has is to get people who don't understand basic biology but do love animals to part with their hard earns because all they see is 'stunning majestic predator in white'. i.e they can't see past the individual and see the bigger picture to the species as a whole.

We all love animals...its very hard not to be in awe of the amzing predator that is a tiger.....it takes a good amount of research and understanding to realise that the beautiful majestic animals that are white tigers, are actually (in REAL TERMS) nothing but random genetic mutations that need to be allowed to live their lives with dignity but should not be bred from and absolutely should not be rereleased into the wild.

No-one would ever consider that there should be a breeding and release programme for albino burmese pythons or melanistic or amelanistic squirrels (all of which occur naturally in the wild)....so why the white tiger? Is everyone realy so blinded by the beauty that they can't see past it?


Regards

Andy


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

bothrops said:


> That's only due to the fact that he was the only one that interacted with the animals, he was the one they were/are imprinted on. He removes the babies from their mother within hours and then hand rears them


actually he removes them after days, not hours.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

about_a_girluk said:


> He may not be the best person but it seems the place is going to pot without him. I've read loads of stories about how they can't run it without him!


One of those deaths occurred whilst he was still there I believe, and perhaps if he did not do what he was doing with them i.e. playing at 'taming' them,then the others would not have felt able to enter the enclosures whilst the animals were in there and as a result not died.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

bothrops said:


> I absolutely and vehemently disagree with the assumption that declawing is 'routine'. It is a barbaric mutilation that severely impinges on the welfare of the cat leading to crippling arthritis and countless behavioural issues in later life. All so he can go in for a cuddle in safety? give me a break!
> 
> 
> As for your second point, I'm a little confused? Either he is breeding for conservation and should be attempting to keep them as wild as possible ready for their eventual release....or he is keeping them as circus performers.
> ...


no it dorsn't, it is either the amputation of a bone that the cat doesn't use (it sticks up in the pad) OR more commonly a laser surgery that cats ans stuters the claws, leaving small stubs. it is not a barbaric mutilation, no matter who tells you, and has no implications on later life at all.
first and foremost, his lions are preformers. has a group used exclusivley for breeding, that are not interacted with, but some are trained starting by raising them as pets from 2 days old.
the white tigers i feel need to be kept, and kept pure, but aside from white lions and tigers he also kept the extinct in the wild barbary lion, this is a cornservation programme, loads of other zoos are trying to breed them.
why should he keep them wild for realease, these cats wont be realeased, and experiment have been done by dave salmoni and dr. bagavad antle to prove that lions and tigers can and do survive in the wild, including hunting and breeding, while still remaining hand-tame.
and yes, riding on a lions back is cool, have you done it?


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

gazz said:


> Yes but if all white tigers died out that not a big loss coz as long as the species exist it can be thrown out by the species again.
> 
> There are only around 300 Asian lions in the wild and when there gone there gone.This is where Conservation should be going.Conservation is for species not mutations.


 yes it would be a big loss because we would have lost a very unique gene, wiped out by people, that has been around for hundreds of years, mabye thousands.
yes the asiastic lion is endangeres but whats wrong with conserving both?


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> No, you wouldn't.
> 
> Declawed cats' paws LOOK normal... but they are missing the last bone of each toe, which is the bone with the claw attached to it. Because the claws are retractable, that bone is normally hidden within a sort of fold in the toe pad - you only ever see a clawed cat's claw tips "outside" that fold if they're very long or if they've extended the claw.
> 
> And yes, I think declawing a cat is mutilation - I've seen first hand what sorts of *mild* behavioural issues it can cause (Tinkerbell, my stepmum's cat, was the worst biter I've ever known - and she did it because she couldn't defend herself with her claws; she seemed to do "pre-emptive strikes" with her teeth instead.) I haven't seen the more severe side of behavioural problems or physical problems it can cause, but that only means I haven't dealt with as many declawed cats as rescues or shelters do.


i personally know a vet tech, of the 200+ declwings they do a year on both domestic and exotics, only 3 have ever had complications. they were all with the old system of declawing, the system being used with the last 10+ years uses a laser the has the kitten up and running around that day, oblivious to the fact that they ever had claws.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

x Sarah x said:


> I don't think Craig's first decision was to do conservation work, he wanted to do a program, and to give him a good image and guarantee people would watch the program was to base it on conservation.... which he did to a certain extent.
> 
> But what he also did and what others urged him to go into, was to train big cats for TV commercials and films, which he did.
> 
> ...


he never wanted to do the show, he was forced into it by his (cheating) wife and financial issues, first and formost, he is a trainer, who decided to give something back by breeding not only tam cats for the industry, but also wild ones which were only used for zoos and such.
he did end up trying to do too much, and that was his downfall, i hope he can get back up.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

SiUK said:


> A keeper got killed at the park the other day


 if that was dalu it happened ages ago, loads of bad stuff happened ever since craig was forced out.:bash:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> no it dorsn't, it is either the amputation of a bone that the cat doesn't use (it sticks up in the pad) OR more commonly a laser surgery that cats ans stuters the claws, leaving small stubs. it is not a barbaric mutilation, no matter who tells you, and has no implications on later life at all.


Cats absolutely DO use that bone in their toes - being able to "strop" their claws and pull against a claw grip in a tree above their head has important implications for their muscles and spine. 

And if you think it doesn't have any implications on later life... I'm not sure how many declawed cats *you've* been around - even if you know a vet tech who does them (and if the vet gets paid to do them, surely they're going to say they're effective and not problematic...) As I said, I've been around a couple, and behaviourally one was *not normal*. She was an aggressive, pre-emptive biter. That's apparently one of the more common effects.

I can imagine that while the declawing operation might have *fewer* physical effects for a housecat, something of the weight of a tiger or lion might well experience more problems from missing the ends of its toes.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> yes it would be a big loss because we would have lost a very unique gene, wiped out by people, that has been around for hundreds of years, mabye thousands.
> yes the asiastic lion is endangeres but whats wrong with conserving both?


The white tiger would not be lost as long as the tiger as a species lives.There are meny tigers that are carryers of the white gene.The white gene is a danger to the normal orange and there for a danger to the species.Coz you can get white tigers out of a pair of orange tigers.But a pair of white tigers won't give you any orange tigers.

And yes conserving both is wrong.Asiastic lions need protecting.Tigers need protecting.White tigers do not.

For example there a Albino Gorilla that was found in the wild.Now this is not normal color for Gorilla and is a danger to the small gene pool.Would you really use this as a stud for a breeding program for the future of the Gorilla.Base on it was found in the wild.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

bothrops said:


> That's only due to the fact that he was the only one that interacted with the animals, he was the one they were/are imprinted on. He removes the babies from their mother within hours and then hand rears them (in complete contrast to true conservation efforts (i.e. 'keep them wild!')) If he has to do film work etc then one or two animals could almost be excused, expecially if they were acting as ambassadors for the species and all the other cats were truely conservation efforts.
> conservation has nothing to do with keeping them wild, it keeping a group of animals safe in captivity as a genetic saftey net incase they get very threatened in the wild.
> 
> 
> ...


.....


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

gazz said:


> The white tiger would not be lost as long as the tiger as a species lives.There are meny tigers that are carryers of the white gene.The white gene is a danger to the normal orange and there for a danger to the species.Coz you can get white tigers out of a pair of orange tigers.But a pair of white tigers won't give you any orange tigers.
> 
> And yes conserving both is wrong.Asiastic lions need protecting.Tigers need protecting.White tigers do not.
> 
> ...


 so if a zoo breeds both siberian tigers, which are endangered, and withe tigers, (which as the bengal ssp is ) that zoo is wrong? haha


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> Cats absolutely DO use that bone in their toes - being able to "strop" their claws and pull against a claw grip in a tree above their head has important implications for their muscles and spine.
> 
> And if you think it doesn't have any implications on later life... I'm not sure how many declawed cats *you've* been around - even if you know a vet tech who does them (and if the vet gets paid to do them, surely they're going to say they're effective and not problematic...) As I said, I've been around a couple, and behaviourally one was *not normal*. She was an aggressive, pre-emptive biter. That's apparently one of the more common effects.
> 
> I can imagine that while the declawing operation might have *fewer* physical effects for a housecat, something of the weight of a tiger or lion might well experience more problems from missing the ends of its toes.


 this vet has done everything, from hosecats to lions and everything in between, she keeps a few exotic cats herself and a few are declawed.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

what i can gather from the hater side is the because white tigers are a mutation and not a species they are undeserving of conservation, and because they donr 'need' to be conserved breeding them is wrong? surley then breeding all the common species we do in the pet trade is wrong because they dont need to be conserved, whereas others do?


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

naja-naja said:


> actually he removes them after days, not hours.


ooohhh, my mistake! Removes them after a few days?...well THAT's ok then!:whistling2:

The episode I caught the oher day showed him removing cubs that were still covered in afterbirth because the mother was 'not feeding them'. The 'best thing for them' was therefore to be handraised as tame animals. Personally, I disagree.
He had no intention of letting that cat raise those cubs. They were removed before she even had chance to clean them properly.

Plus - to add another dimension - I know of a leopard that rejected ~1/4 of her cubs every litter. The zoo attempted to handraise them. Every single one died at around four months old due to a malfunctioning diaphragm. The mother knew they weren't right.



naja-naja said:


> yes it would be a big loss because we would have lost a very unique gene, wiped out by people, that has been around for hundreds of years, mabye thousands.
> yes the asiastic lion is endangeres but whats wrong with conserving both?


Since when has 'rare' or even 'unique' (which it clearly isn't!) meant 'has to be conserved'? Just because it is visually pleasing to us does not in anyway shape or form give it an inherent conservation value. The very fact that the homozygous white tigers have so many deleterious traits, due in part I'll admit, to inbreeding depression, but still closely linked to the homozygote, shouts that it is only a loss to selfish humans that think the natural world is for them and therefore it must be kept 'pretty' by OUR standards, and not to the already dangerously small and therefore 'at risk' tiger gene pool. Therefore the natural fate of a non-selected rare gene in any population is that it will be lost due to (completely natural) random genetic drift.





naja-naja said:


> he never wanted to do the show, he was forced into it by his (cheating) wife and financial issues, first and formost, he is a trainer, who decided to give something back by breeding not only tam cats for the industry, but also wild ones which were only used for zoos and such.
> he did end up trying to do too much, and that was his downfall, i hope he can get back up.


You make a point that she was cheating on him. I fail to see how that excuses him fracturing her spine? Call me old fashioned but any man that lays a finger on a woman, no matter what her 'crime' is a weak coward and should be locked up. If she cheated, kick her out - there is never an excuse for violence.




I have absolutely nothing against recessive genes, hell, I breed snake morphs! However, I do not mutalate my animals for my benefit, I do not compromise the dignity of my animals by riding around on their back for entertainment. I don't try to justify my 'playing with wild animals 'cos it makes me look cool' attitude by claiming I am trying to conserve a rare subspecies.


I take it if declawing cats is cool with you, then you have no issue with venomoid snakes either?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> so if a zoo breeds both siberian tigers, which are endangered, and withe tigers, (which as the bengal ssp is ) that zoo is wrong? haha


If they bred orange Siberian and orange Bengal then that not wrong.

If they bred white siberian and white bengal then yes that's wrong.No matter how endangered there doing more harm than good.

Only mother nature should throw mutations.And if mother nature chooes for them to live so be it.It's not mans place.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

naja-naja said:


> .....


constructive - helps a lot, thanks for that.



naja-naja said:


> so if a zoo breeds both siberian tigers, which are endangered, and withe tigers, (which as the bengal ssp is ) that zoo is wrong? haha


For the Siberians? no

For the white tiger? yes, completely.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

bothrops said:


> ooohhh, my mistake! Removes them after a few days?...well THAT's ok then!:whistling2:
> 
> The episode I caught the oher day showed him removing cubs that were still covered in afterbirth because the mother was 'not feeding them'. The 'best thing for them' was therefore to be handraised as tame animals. Personally, I disagree.
> He had no intention of letting that cat raise those cubs. They were removed before she even had chance to clean them properly.
> ...


 i think that tha one with the cubs in afterbirth was rewa the tiger that never raised any of her cubs and usually tried to kill them. removing them after a few days is ok as the have gotten the colusturum from the mothers milk, they can then be human raised and made ready for training. if white tigers dont have to be conserved, what is so wrong with breeding them at all? they were doing perfectly well in the wild, they have been documented in the wild for over 700 years! people specificlly chose them to remove them, leaving only one male to carry the gene to captivity in the '50s. declawing cats is ok with me, but i dont know a thing about venemoids, so a cant comment on those.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> what i can gather from the hater side is the because white tigers are a mutation and not a species they are undeserving of conservation, and because they donr 'need' to be conserved breeding them is wrong?


If I breed albino cheetahs in the name of "conservation" I'm deluding myself. Albino cheetahs are no use to the conservation effort - sure, they're endangered cheetahs, but they are cheetahs that could never be released into the wild and shouldn't be used as breeding partners for normal-coloured cheetahs that can either.

Bengal tigers are worthy of conservation. But Bengal tigers *as they exist in the wild, as WILDTYPE camouflaged animals* are the ones that need conserving - not mutation half-domesticated "pet" tigers.

And because Zion is concentrating on the PET tigers, they haven't got the space or breeding project to breed the wildtype animals that *should* be part of a conservation effort.

There's nothing wrong with breeding "pet" tigers... but don't try to claim it's for conservation.



> surley then breeding all the common species we do in the pet trade is wrong because they dont need to be conserved, whereas others do?


The difference is, I'm not breeding blue-eyed white pythons claiming I'm doing it for the conservation of the species. I'm being open and honest that my breeding a blue-eyed leucistic royal python is for my own entertainment and the animal is ONLY ever good as a pet. It won't save the species, and doesn't even REPRESENT the species.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

gazz said:


> If they bred orange Siberian and orange Bengal then that not wrong.
> 
> If they bred white siberian and white bengal then yes that's wrong.No matter how endangered there doing more harm than good.
> 
> Only mother nature should throw mutations.And if mother nature chooes for them to live so be it.It's not mans place.


 nature created the mutation, nature let it survive, man almost destroyed it, the least we can do is give it a fighting chance.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

bothrops said:


> constructive - helps a lot, thanks for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the ... was because after i had commented in the quote, the forum wouldn't let me post without some other charechters.. i chose dots.
why is it wrong to propogate the white tiger, even with no conservation value? esp the pure bengal specimens, they could be at least crossed into the regular bengal lines.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> what i can gather from the hater side is the because white tigers are a mutation and not a species


White tiger is both a mutation and a species.

No body hate these mutations.There stunning in there own right.It's just that the words.

Mutation + conservation = :naughty:.

Mutation + Private owner = :thumb:.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

gazz said:


> White tiger is both a mutation and a species.
> 
> No body hate these mutations.There stunning in there own right.It's just that the words.
> 
> ...


 nah, they're a mutation within a species, and you are absolutley right, no probs with other tigers such as sumatran and amur taking priority breeding programs in zoos, but why cant private owners keep and breed white tigers?
if i ever get the chance to (fairly likley, i know of a few breeders and we dont need a licence here, plus land is cheap at the mo and prices are still dropping) i will keep my own exotic cats, and a pair of white tigers will take pride of place among them.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> If I breed albino cheetahs in the name of "conservation" I'm deluding myself. Albino cheetahs are no use to the conservation effort - sure, they're endangered cheetahs, but they are cheetahs that could never be released into the wild and shouldn't be used as breeding partners for normal-coloured cheetahs that can either.
> 
> Bengal tigers are worthy of conservation. But Bengal tigers *as they exist in the wild, as WILDTYPE camouflaged animals* are the ones that need conserving - not mutation half-domesticated "pet" tigers.
> 
> ...


 
Couldn't agree more!



naja-naja said:


> the ... was because after i had commented in the quote, the forum wouldn't let me post without some other charechters.. i chose dots.
> 
> *My apologies - didn't see/notice that you had commented within my quote - *goes back to check**
> 
> why is it wrong to propogate the white tiger, even with no conservation value? esp the pure bengal specimens, they could be at least crossed into the regular bengal lines.


Why so wrong? Because it is heavily linked with deleterious recessive genes (as I mentioned earlier) such as kidney failure, cross-eyedness and in some cases facial disfigurement. In order to 'conserve' the white colour we also have to conserve the hugely damaging associated defects. Even with out breeding, these will still be present. The white colour infers NO benefit on the tiger and the only reason it is being bred is because humans like it. It is of as much intrinsic value as a stripeless tiger or a tiger with a club foot...it is only the white colour that gives it a percieved value in human eyes (hence why it was first shot/percecuted) but has no instrinsic value. i.e. it does not need to be conserved.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> nature created the mutation, nature let it survive, man almost destroyed it, the least we can do is give it a fighting chance.


It's orange tigers that need the fighting chance first.When and if we ever get the orange tiger sorted out.And then from them White tigers are born in the wild.Then fair dose but NO! to man breeding white tigers to release into the wild.White is NOT the natural color of the tiger.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

gazz said:


> It's orange tigers that need the fighting chance first.When and if we ever get the orange tiger sorted out.And then from them White tigers are born in the wild.Then fair dose but NO! to man breeding white tigers to release into the wild.White is NOT the natural color of the tiger.


 the original natural color no, but a natural colour, yes.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> 
> 
> Why so wrong? Because it is heavily linked with deleterious recessive genes (as I mentioned earlier) such as kidney failure, cross-eyedness and in some cases facial disfigurement. In order to 'conserve' the white colour we also have to conserve the hugely damaging associated defects. Even with out breeding, these will still be present. The white colour infers NO benefit on the tiger and the only reason it is being bred is because humans like it. It is of as much intrinsic value as a stripeless tiger or a tiger with a club foot...it is only the white colour that gives it a percieved value in human eyes (hence why it was first shot/percecuted) but has no instrinsic value. i.e. it does not need to be conserved.


 the 'bad stuff' for want of a better decription, is due to inbreeding, as i said, before, what is the problem with breeding white tigers in captivity for their appearence? even if you forget about the wild and we accept that its not good it doesn't mean its not bad! i see no problem, with an individual, such as mr busch, deciding to breed white tigers, whether he does because he beleives it needs to be conserved (as i do) or to finance the barbary lion project- WHICH IS A REAL CONSERVATION PROJECT, WITH A REAL SSP WITH A 'NATURAL' COLOR.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

It's not guaranteed that the deformities are exclusive to inbred lines.

In most animals, coat colour isn't just a paint job - it also affects how the animals *work*.

For example, Siamese cats don't have to be inbred to be cross-eyed and have kinked tails - it's something that just happens to tag along with the temperature-variable albinism that creates dark-pointed white cats with blue eyes. Blue-eyed white cats (and dalmatian dogs) don't have to be inbred to be deaf - it's a side-effect of having white coats and no pigment inside the ears. White spotting patterns in rodents and dogs can cause megacolon - a malformation of the intestine.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "erase-orange" gene in tigers ALSO has some unexpected effects.

But, as I said, there's nothing wrong with breeding white tigers *as pets and performing animals*. But it isn't a conservation project, it's a captive pantheroculture project no different to me breeding snow stripe corn snakes... they're not releasable and they won't save the species either.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

I guess I've seen a different episode of the lion man to you. You say that he doesn't breed ligers and yet in the episode I watched (when he was riding the male around a cage and showing off his three eight week old white lion cubs that were taken on tour without their mother) one of the 'shows' was a lion and a tigeress in the same cage described by the man himself, over the microphone whilst in the cage with them both, as 'boyfriend and girlfriend'. I think that indicates he may indeed breed ligers.


No-one has ever described white tigers as evil and no-one has said they should all be shot. The arguement was breeding them as a 'conservation effort' and releasing them into the wild - something you were very keen on. Now it seems you just want a couple in your back garden? That my friend is a very different arguement!

Cheers

Andy


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

naja-naja said:


> nah, they're a mutation within a species, and you are absolutley right, no probs with other tigers such as sumatran and amur taking priority breeding programs in zoos, but why cant private owners keep and breed white tigers?.


It's you that said white tigers are a mutation and not a species. When there in fact both a mutation and a species.Onless ofcourse there a hybrid white tiger.

Private owners have every right to own breed mutations.Providing the animal needs are all met.Just a no go on the releaseing into the wild that's all.


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## SilverSteno (Feb 12, 2006)

There used to be 100,000 tigers in the wild, a few hundred white mutations of these would be expected same as for other species which throw up the occassional white individual. Today there are fewer than 2,000 so white mutations in the wild are, not surprisingly, rare. For them to appear in a population already so low the risks of any negative side effects increasing in the population would be very high, particularly as tiger populations are highly fragmented and inbreeding is already becoming a massive issue and threat to the species. Releasing white tigers, breeding white tigers, is of no conservation value. In fact, doing so could have the opposite effect causing even more genetic damage to the tigers. And if anyone doesn't think that is a bad thing, take a look at what is happening to the Amur leopard. They are on the brink of extinction and the way things are going, inbreeding could be the final blow that tips them over the edge. 

It isn't down to people to save mutations, fine, save them for ourselves to look at but they have no benefit to their wild counterparts and could in fact be a detriment if they were to be released into the wild.

Oh and bengal tigers are a subspecies, not a species, white tigers are a part of that subspecies not a species (or subspecies) of their own.


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## jc_reptiles (Jan 17, 2009)

Having spoken to two vets a IZVG recently I can tell you that declawing highly unethical and painful and I would not dare to aguee this point with either of them, nor want to. 

If a tiger is repeatly failing at rearing her cubs, then she should not be bred to. In any animal good parenting skills are essential, and this will be passed down from generation to generation. Filling collections with hand reared cats completly fails conservation in my opinion. There is no need to have such close contact with big cats, it serves no perpose to the animal whatsoever. You should look at any endangered species with the few to eventially re-introduce it to the wild. People like Busch completly ignore this.

I have no problem with people keeping and breeding white tigers privatly. What gets me is people making claims such as them being subspecies etc for obvious financial gain and publicity. 

As for funding a Barbary Lion project! :mf_dribble:
Even if Zion didnt hold hybrids and had true Barbary Lions, there is no point. There is no longer strong enough genetic diversity to save this species. Yet another example of publicity for financial gain. I bet members even donate to try and save them!


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

For a year or so before he died I had the pleasure of working with Pete James' Big Cat Collection at Santago. Now Pete was an ambassador for big cat consevation. This Lion man sort is just a prat.

that is my 2 cents.


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## Ash33 (Sep 22, 2009)

I think it's rediculous that he can get away with all this white tiger and lion "conservation" when none of it is true, and also how he can get away with the declawing etc. I just don't think he should be on tv giving this false educational stuff.


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## kimmylizards (Feb 8, 2008)

*lion man*

he is a great man , l would love to meet him and as for a wife beat she was sleep with somone in his bed , he should be back with his cats


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## gtm15782 (Aug 24, 2008)

If these freaks are so useless why is there a small pride of them living in the wild and surviving without our intervention, When you think of a great white lion trying to stalk their prey then you would think it would stick out like a sore thumb, but this pride is proving that it isn't such a major issue.
You never know how a new mutation is going to affect a species but that is what evolution is all about, trial and error, what genetic traits work best.
I'm still not sure if breeding them in captivity and then trying to release them into the wild is the right thing to do but I don't think they should be labelled as freaks.


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## jc_reptiles (Jan 17, 2009)

The problem is the way people label them. They are just a mutation of the african lion. They are a pale form (leucestic ?) of the african lion. Unfortuently they have already condemed themselves. The whole pride is white. Only inbreeding could have done this, with related animals passing on the trait to one another. This is a problem with lions. Think about the Ngorongoro Crater Lions (look it up if you dont know). These white lions will almost certainly be the death of themselves, but this dosent give them any kind of conservation status. The are not a species, nor a subspecies, yet groups make stupid claims to them being more endangered than the snow leopard! If they can sort themselves out naturally in the wild, then great but they shouldnt be bred in captivity when there genetics are already so knackered. It just isnt correct species management. Yet again though, the publicity and financial gain can outway the ethics. 





gtm15782 said:


> If these freaks are so useless why is there a small pride of them living in the wild and surviving without our intervention, When you think of a great white lion trying to stalk their prey then you would think it would stick out like a sore thumb, but this pride is proving that it isn't such a major issue.
> You never know how a new mutation is going to affect a species but that is what evolution is all about, trial and error, what genetic traits work best.
> I'm still not sure if breeding them in captivity and then trying to release them into the wild is the right thing to do but I don't think they should be labelled as freaks.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

White tigers are very unhealthy they are prone to blindness bone problems and all sorts of other horrible conditions why do we need to keep bringing them into this world? it's not fair on them.


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## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

kimmylizards said:


> he is a great man , l would love to meet him and as for a wife beat she was sleep with somone in his bed , he should be back with his cats


Your having a laugh right??


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

ryanr1987 said:


> White tigers are very unhealthy they are prone to blindness bone problems and all sorts of other horrible conditions why do we need to keep bringing them into this world? it's not fair on them.


I agree. I also wonder how long it will be before people start to say similar things about a lot of the inbred morphs some of the reptile breeders keep producing?


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## Dean Wil (Apr 22, 2009)

Deffinetly a self publicising, wife beating animal abuser.

Casting aside the wife beating because i didnt know about that, the man is still a moron.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

x Sarah x said:


> Each animal is important to the next! they're calling a white lion a "Junk" animal, something that should be thrown out with the trash basically...
> 
> Does that mean that a larger percentage on people on this forum are bad people, producing useless freaks of nature that are no use to anyone, because we breed different coloured snakes and lizards?


In terms of conservation, yes. 

If you study Conservtion, you'd understand that these comments are actually quite right; the main reason for the continued existance of zoological gardens are to promote conservation (IMO, a flawed concept for Zoos, for various reasons I will not go into here). 

Genetic abnormalities that are artificially bred to a higher population and genetic frequency are of no real conservation value. Why breed a recessive genotype to such a frequency and neglect the Wild type genome? 


As for the reptile analogy, it's not really appropriate here: morphs sell for money, often big money. I doubt that anyone who breeds morphs is doing for *conservation *purposes (wild conservation), because these animals do not occur in significant populations in the wild, nor would they persist under strong selective pressures. Morphs do not represent the wild type, they represent a population bred for a certain morphological character. 

And since most breeders ignore the advice of people who understand genetics beyond that of mendelian ratios, the build up of negative alleles for other factors besides appearance are often ignored, and keepers are oblivious to them. When you bred morphs, do you allow for genetic linkage drag? How do you know that the gene for "red stripes" is not linked to another allele that increases risk of spinal defeats because of a lack of a certain protein/enzyme, etc? Thats only one of several potentially dangerous issues that arise from such breeding, and it's also why such morphs would not be used for conservation over the wild type species with higher genetic diversity (to form a better standing stock). 

Don't take this as a personal jab, but it' just from a conervation point of veiw those comments are completely accurate. By conserving those "morphs", they are achiveing nothinbg towards conserving the actual species in it's current wild state, and since the goal of most conservation efforts to eventually release, such animals are hard to justify as a conservational tool.


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## Leopardman98 (Sep 30, 2009)

Hes Awesome:2thumb:


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## Leopardman98 (Sep 30, 2009)

Hes awesome:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

didnt know that craig busch declaws his cats , what a sick f**k
I wish him all the worst in the future


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

kimmylizards said:


> he is a great man , l would love to meet him and as for a wife beat she was sleep with somone in his bed , he should be back with his cats


still no excuse imo


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## bigdaddyboa (Aug 31, 2009)

Im going to have my say about craig. One person has been killed and that was Dahlu and he was sadly killed by Abu the white tiger. Abu a few weeks before attacked another member of staff(all this happened once craig had been removed from the park). As for the wife beating Karen was his fiance and she was found in his bed with another woman and her boyfriend.If I found this I would flip. As for craig removing claws. As far as I can remember he did it 2 times and that was on the wild pride(the pride he rescued from a circus) the circus had not had the claws removed properly so he had the job done properly so the lion would not be in the pain it was in. As for white lions... Craig bred these for conservation as The people of Timba Vate (where there were many prides of white lions wanted the lions returned back to where they first came from Ed Hern gave Craig two of these animals for craig to start a new blood line which he did from Gandor and shakira and his main aim was to breed some more to put back into Timba Vate where they first came from. But whilst this was going on in Timba vate they found a white lion pride remaining so he still carried on to make new blood lines I totally agree with what he is doing. My wife and I have been to Zion wildlife park and these animals are well looked after and we even walked Kali which was a wonderful experience and I can tell you they do have have claws.
I think the white lions and Tigers are so beautiful and that the conservation of them should carry on.
The last thing I am going to say is that Craig should be reinstated at Zion as Dahlu's death happened whilst Craig had been removed Abu was raised by Craig from a cub so as people know animals do not like change. If craig had not been removed I doubt whether Dahlu would have died.

BRING BACK CRAIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

bigdaddyboa said:


> Im going to have my say about craig. One person has been killed and that was Dahlu and he was sadly killed by Abu the white tiger. Abu a few weeks before attacked another member of staff(all this happened once craig had been removed from the park). As for the wife beating Karen was his fiance and she was found in his bed with another woman and her boyfriend.If I found this I would flip. As for craig removing claws. As far as I can remember he did it 2 times and that was on the wild pride(the pride he rescued from a circus) the circus had not had the claws removed properly so he had the job done properly so the lion would not be in the pain it was in. As for white lions... Craig bred these for conservation as The people of Timba Vate (where there were many prides of white lions wanted the lions returned back to where they first came from Ed Hern gave Craig two of these animals for craig to start a new blood line which he did from Gandor and shakira and his main aim was to breed some more to put back into Timba Vate where they first came from. But whilst this was going on in Timba vate they found a white lion pride remaining so he still carried on to make new blood lines I totally agree with what he is doing. My wife and I have been to Zion wildlife park and these animals are well looked after and we even walked Kali which was a wonderful experience and I can tell you they do have have claws.
> I think the white lions and Tigers are so beautiful and that the conservation of them should carry on.
> The last thing I am going to say is that Craig should be reinstated at Zion as Dahlu's death happened whilst Craig had been removed Abu was raised by Craig from a cub so as people know animals do not like change. If craig had not been removed I doubt whether Dahlu would have died.
> 
> BRING BACK CRAIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
That's your opinion and your are completely entitled to it. I however completely disagree with you on most points. I'll not go back into the whole white tiger/lion thing - you can read back through the thread for those opinions but I must pick up on the 'wife beating' thing..


..I can not believe how many people are defending the giant of a man for fracturing a womans spine! I couldn't care less if she was running a brothel involving twenty in a bed orgies from his bedroom - THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR VIOLENCE:devil:. EVER. :devil:

He could of kicked her out, divorced her, whatever, but he is a huge beast of a man and she is a tiny girl. I don't know either of them and I certainly wasn't there at the time, but I personally believe there is never ever ever an excuse to hit a woman and any man that does is a coward and a bully.

Still, at least he looks cool with his pet tigers hey?:whip:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

To be fair, from what I've read it wasn't the first time he's beaten a woman, he has a bit of a habit of it. There is no excuse for domestic abuse, any bloke who needs to smack a woman around (no matter what she's done) is two testicles short of being allowed to call himself a man. Anyone who advocates wife-battering should be avoided as a boyfriend I would suspect!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

KathyM said:


> To be fair, from what I've read it wasn't the first time he's beaten a woman, he has a bit of a habit of it. There is no excuse for domestic abuse, any bloke who needs to smack a woman around (no matter what she's done) is two testicles short of being allowed to call himself a man. Anyone who advocates wife-battering should be avoided as a boyfriend I would suspect!


:gasp: lol 

i have to 100% agree with you on that one Kathy :2thumb:


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## mikeliverpool (Aug 5, 2009)

*Lion man*

so is craig bush doing a tour or what I still don't know LOL if so would some1 tell me wear the places are he is gonna be


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Why would you want to line the pocket of such an insufferable, snivelling tosser, that's a better question lol.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Why would you want to line the pocket of such an insufferable, snivelling tosser, that's a better question lol.


:2thumb::no1:


Cheers

Andy


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I don't really know of the guy to be honest, obviously if he is a wife beater everyone with half a brain cell would hope he'd be punished in the same way as anyone else. But that is totally seperate and we will never know. Does anyone know why he was fired? I just read that somewhere and am now interested lol.

About the conservation well if he is breeding colour mutations that is most certainly NOT in the name of conservation - i'm sorry but there is no way around that. It goes against any common sense whatsoever. Anyone that has studied such animals in the wild and knows about conservation will know that they need to try and improve their chances as much as possible. Only wild types should be used in a conservation programme. So many animals of different mutations popping up is a result of close inbreeding - NOT something that should be done in animals that are going to be re-released at some point (or even their offspring).

I think a lot of people get drawn into the excitement of it all and forget the real definition of CONSERVATION. Oooh I got to walk a tiger they must be great. Why?? And if such mutations are not occuring in the wild naturally through natural selection, they are a man-made object. Not suitable for reintroduction. 

I did watch one repeat episode the other day and I just thought he was an idiot for letting tiger and lion cubs play near a large family of deer. Oh that was clever! LOL.

As for declawing, the only reason I can think they would do that is because they insist on such a high level of human contact with their animals (from what i've seen). It IS a rediculously painful operation and should not be done, full stop. People like this make me angry - so what if there is no cruelty going on or the animals are well looked after, he is still basically LYING to people to make money.


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

My view of mr. Bush, in 2 words.
Prat, scum. Wife beaters should be castrated. 

I remember watching an episode, in which, someone asked him what the rarest species of lion was, he said the white lion... which is a mutation, within a species, not a separate species. Complete prat imo.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with people breeding white lions/tigers, for use in tv/movies, or just because they would like one in their collection. But, I can't agree that white tigers have any conservation value, I'm not to sure about white lions yet, if they occur naturally, and can survive in the wild, then maybe there is an argument for them. As long, as the colour doesn't come with any health defects that would be deleterious to their survival, or of the species in general.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Tazer said:


> My view of mr. Bush, in 2 words.
> Prat, scum. Wife beaters should be castrated.
> 
> I remember watching an episode, in which, someone asked him what the rarest species of lion was, he said the white lion... which is a mutation, within a species, not a separate species. Complete prat imo.
> ...


Couldn't agree more!

In terms of the white lions, they do occur 'naturally' in as much as a small population that have been reproductively isolated and inbreed. The white mutation doesn't appear to have too much of a deleterious effect on the prides and they can survive just as well as yellow lions. However, the only reason that whole prides of white lions exist is due to the reproductive isolation and subsequent inbreeding.

As with the white tigers, again, some evidence suggests that the mutation survived in the wild due to the larger size of the white tiger and particularly the intermediate size of the 'het'. i.e. the mutation survives because although the homozygote is white and therefore more likely to be seen and less likely to be a successful hunter, the larger size compensates in some way. Add to that the fact that the het gains the benefit of the extra size without the deleterious colour problems and the continuation of the mutation in wild populations.

HOWEVER - due to the animals (lions and tigers) that carry the white mutation going through such a severe genetic bottleneck they have an incredibly low genetic diversity and many of the genetic problems that have occured through inbreeding depression are now well established in the captive populations. Add to that the fact that most white tigers are actually hybrids of many subspecies of tiger (I doubt ANY are pure bengals) means that they are worthless as conservation animals...


Still, at least Craig gets to cuddle baby tigers and has hundreds of thousands of people all around the world willing to give him huge amounts of their cash and the defend him to the hilt (just see the replies on this thread) despite all the evidecne in front of their faces, hey? good good!


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> In terms of the white lions, they do occur 'naturally' in as much as a small population that have been reproductively isolated and inbreed. The white mutation doesn't appear to have too much of a deleterious effect on the prides and they can survive just as well as yellow lions. However, the only reason that whole prides of white lions exist is due to the reproductive isolation and subsequent inbreeding.
> 
> ...


Agree entirely. 

Also, he doesn't raise the cubs, that are taken from their mothers, but seems to get most of the credit for the hard work from the people who do.
Just out of interest, what are your thoughts on Shaun Ellis aka, the wolfman, imo, another prat. But at least, he doesn't abuse his animals, or girlfriend, at least from what I've heard anyway.


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

Found this, looks like he'll be visiting us in a few months, arn't we so lucky.

Lion Man leaving to thank UK fans | Stuff.co.nz


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## Ursus (Jul 9, 2009)

Tazer said:


> Found this, looks like he'll be visiting us in a few months, arn't we so lucky.
> 
> Lion Man leaving to thank UK fans | Stuff.co.nz


Tazer , most UK zoos belonging to BIAZA will not be recieving a visit from the Lion man as BIAZA (the professional body that overseas most UK zoos) has stated that they will not accept him visiting their members and those zoos have agreed to abide by this so good news on that front!: victory:


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for that.

Wonder who he will be visiting then?. 

Out of interest, how many private keepers of bigcats are there in the uk.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

I think what he has done is appalling and i do not like how he declaws animals etc and claims to be a conservationist because he isn't - its like us breeding leopard gecko morphs and claiming were going to do it because we want to stop them from dying out .......


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Wow, I feel so comfortable knowing yet another violent criminal is going to visit our country with noone defending his potential victims, yet again violence against women is played down. I hope it's a short stay with a boot up his arse on the way out.


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## mrsTeegsta (Feb 26, 2009)

i think what he does is amazing how many of you do the things he does everyday how many of you let children who are dying into your world and let them live there dream his animal all look well and happy if they were un happy he would be dead they have trust in him just like he does in them how any one on here can say anything about cages is beyond me we all have skunks or ferrets rabbits snakes lizards all that should be in the whild with all the land they want but we keep them not to bread to get populations up and stop them becomin extinct but to show off your morphs and make money where he mates them as white tigers are few and farbetween as are the barbry lions excuse the spelling ppl never been very good :blush: 

DONT WORRIE IM USED TO PEOPLE ON HERE SLAGGING ME OFF ABOUT MY COMMENTS SO GO AHEAD GIVE IT YOUR BEST IT DONT CHANGE THE FACT THAT ALL YOU WHO THINK YOUR BETTER THAN PPL ARE ACTUALL ARROGANT SELF CENTRED PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE ANY INTREST IN WILDLIFE AND THE FACT THAT THE WORLD IS CHANGING EVERYDAY DUE TO ANIMALS BECOMING EXTINCT YOU DONT SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO ARE GENUINLY TRYING TO PROTECT OUR FANTASTIC ANIMAL:whistling2:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

mrsTeegsta said:


> i think what he does is amazing how many of you do the things he does everyday how many of you let children who are dying into your world and let them live there dream his animal all look well and happy if they were un happy he would be dead they have trust in him just like he does in them how any one on here can say anything about cages is beyond me we all have skunks or ferrets rabbits snakes lizards all that should be in the whild with all the land they want but we keep them not to bread to get populations up and stop them becomin extinct but to show off your morphs and make money where he mates them as white tigers are few and farbetween as are the barbry lions excuse the spelling ppl never been very good :blush:
> 
> DONT WORRIE IM USED TO PEOPLE ON HERE SLAGGING ME OFF ABOUT MY COMMENTS SO GO AHEAD GIVE IT YOUR BEST IT DONT CHANGE THE FACT THAT ALL YOU WHO THINK YOUR BETTER THAN PPL ARE ACTUALL ARROGANT SELF CENTRED PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE ANY INTREST IN WILDLIFE AND THE FACT THAT THE WORLD IS CHANGING EVERYDAY DUE TO ANIMALS BECOMING EXTINCT YOU DONT SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO ARE GENUINLY TRYING TO PROTECT OUR FANTASTIC ANIMAL:whistling2:


 
Point 1 - If you actually read the thread you will see that the whole point is that we are argueing about the very point you are making - Craig has no interest at all in conserving rare species. If he did he WOULDN'T be breeding white tigers, white lions and ligers. He is a showman and a circus act with a 'conservation' tag to make sure laymen like yourself buy into his propaganda and give him your hard earnt. If you really want to help the tigers invest the same money here

Sumatran Tiger Trust

or here

Tiger Adoption – WWF-UK – Bengal tigers are endangered but adoption & sponsorship can help save them from extinction.

or similiar.


Point 2 - You have no idea who I am or what I do. How dare you insinuate that I am an arrogant and self centred person who does nothing to help wildlife? I have no intention of rising to your bait and kicking off. I am 100% guilt free when it comes to my own efforts both personally and professionally, but if you believe that sending money to Craig is better for big cat conservation than the above links (and many more besides) you are quite deluded and have absolutely no foundations for such rediculous and remarks and insinuations.


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## mrsTeegsta (Feb 26, 2009)

did i call u MATE no i didnt and you know them do you and there private life whats wrong with breading white tigers come on tell me that


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

http://www.kryptozoologie.net/gallery/data/media/11/WhiteTigerDeformed3.jpg

THAT'S what's wrong with breeding white tigers. Cant see him living for very long in the wild.

Your ignorance is astounding. I'm quite shocked that any woman could like a man who makes a habit out of beating ladies til their spines break.


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## mrsTeegsta (Feb 26, 2009)

what has it got to do with you what he does in his private life darling sweet FA thats his life i would broadcast your fella beating you and i dont agree with it thankyou very much as i have been on the reciving end of a man thanks for the reminder darling i must say and no its not nice but thats his life not urs not mine or anyone elses if he was a everyday man nobody would of know about it just like my ex walked away after broken bones black eyes and the loss of a baby its life no body can stop anybody in that time it happens and the only way it would ever stop is keeping men and woman on seperate islands


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## mrsTeegsta (Feb 26, 2009)

y dont you put all your hating into a site thats made for woman who get beat not on a REPTILE FORUM where its needed


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

mrsTeegsta said:


> did i call u MATE no i didnt and you know them do you and there private life


You directly addressed all people on this thread that oppose Craig Busch's ethics and tactics as 'arrogant and self centred' - therefore Yes, you did!

It is blatently clear by your aggressive and confrontational tone that I am not your 'mate' and probably never will be, but that doesn't mean this has to turn into a slanging match. If you are here for a discussion then control your fingers and put forward valid, meaningful points that back up your view of Craig and his practises. If you are here for a fight then don''t bother - I'm not interested.



mrsTeegsta said:


> what has it got to do with you what he does in his private life darling sweet FA thats his life i would broadcast your fella beating you and i dont agree with it thankyou very much as i have been on the reciving end of a man thanks for the reminder darling i must say and no its not nice but thats his life not urs not mine or anyone elses if he was a everyday man nobody would of know about it just like my ex walked away after broken bones black eyes and the loss of a baby its life no body can stop anybody in that time it happens and the only way it would ever stop is keeping men and woman on seperate islands


This is a very odd stance for a victim of domestic abuse to be defending a man who commited it?

BTW I vehemently disagree that the only way to stop it is to keep men and women on seperate islands. The way to stop it is for all those guilty of it to be properly put to justice and never allowed back into proper society as they are absolutely 100% the scum of the earth....but you're right this has nothing to do with the big cats so I'll leave this one here..



mrsTeegsta said:


> y dont you put all your hating into a site thats made for woman who get beat not on a REPTILE FORUM where its needed


...we're actuall in the exotic mammal section and discussing a media prominent player in the big cat world. He has chosen to make his life public and therefore we are perfectly within our rights to discuss him. The fact that his private life is questionable adds wieght to our other arguements and is therefore a valid (yet admittedly minor) arguement.




mrsTeegsta said:


> whats wrong with breading white tigers come on tell me that


There's nothing wrong with breading white tigers (I find it makes the meat less dry when you deep fry it and gives a lovely golden coating)....


...sorry couldn't resist


...whats wrong with breeding them? Well, apart from the grotesque facial deformities in some, the crossed eyed nature of all and the fact they die prematurely of kidney failure....nothing!

Oh, and just for the record their is NO conservation value to the white tiger any more than there is conservation value to domestic dogs, albino squirrels or spider royals...


..in fact, spider royals are a great parallel. Originally found in the wild, defined genetic defect in all. I have no major beef with spider royals (though I would never own one) but I don't know of a single breeder who tries to claim they are doing it for 'conservation reasons'.!?



As I say, if you'd like to discuss this subject sensibly and calmly I am more than happy to discuss any of my views with you, and back them up with any evidence you request.

If howeve ryou have come here to swear and pick a fight then just don't bother.

Cheers

Andy


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

mrsTeegsta said:


> what has it got to do with you what he does in his private life darling sweet FA thats his life i would broadcast your fella beating you and i dont agree with it thankyou very much as i have been on the reciving end of a man thanks for the reminder darling i must say and no its not nice but thats his life not urs not mine or anyone elses if he was a everyday man nobody would of know about it just like my ex walked away after broken bones black eyes and the loss of a baby its life no body can stop anybody in that time it happens and the only way it would ever stop is keeping men and woman on seperate islands


You're suggesting wife battering is natural and acceptable, that's disgusting. Having been in that situation myself and having had children in that situation, I find your stance that it's noone's business and that it's natural for men to beat women wholly abhorrent and offensive. 

As for what is wrong with "breading" white tigers (your words), if you meant "breeding" then read the thread and decide for yourself as I haven't formed an opinion as yet. If however you meant what you wrote, the breadcrumbs vs batter debate is a whole other thread. :lol2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

As for calling us all "haters", what are you, some sort of Rikki Lake guest? God I hate that kind of language. But yes, I utterly despise wife batterers and animal abusers, so go ahead, say it again. Speak to the hand though, cos the ears aint listening aiiiiit (sorry, trying to speak in your chav language there to make it easier to understand for you).


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

KathyM said:


> Speak to the hand though, cos the ears aint listening aiiiiit (sorry, trying to speak in your chav language there to make it easier to understand for you).


I beleave (Talk to the hand)etc is American:lol2:.Chav would be (Like shut up.Or i'll brick you windows.An't it):2thumb:.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL summink like. Either way it's the same sort of people. Too much gob and too little brain. Wife battering's natural, that's a classic! Perhaps in her gene pool! :lol2:


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