# Fake Rock Enclosure (Image Heavy) **Update 10/01/2009**



## HadesDragons

As I'm not breeding any beardies this summer, I decided to put all of the free time to good use and build a new display cage. I wanted to test out some ideas I'd had for vivarium control systems (more about that later) and general design ideas. It's still not finished, but I will be updating this thread as I go - all being well it should be finished in the next couple of weeks. A lot of the design / construction principles are the same as the ones I use for large rodent cages - there's a thread about them here:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/152099-large-indoor-rodent-cages-how.html

Overall, the cage itself is just over 5' x 2' x 2'; the actual unit is quite a bit larger than this because of the shelves underneath - it's almost 6' total height.


First up I built the frame for the cage. It's a pretty standard design, with two skins top, bottom and sides, and a single skin at the back. The front will eventually be covered with the same decorative cladding that will form the outer skin of the sides (not yet assembled). This is the unit just as I'm starting the wiring:











One of the ideas I wanted to test was a ventilation system. This will be linked to a thermostat, with the idea being that if the cage gets too hot the system dumps all of the hot air out the cage, thus cooling it. As the cage will be lit by an MVB (which can only be on / off stat'd), I wanted to try out an alternative heat regulation system. It also means that the temperature of the cage will track room temperature - it will be warmer in summer and cooler in winter, whilst still being safe and providing a cool end to retreat to if needed. As well as being linked to a stat, the fan also has a timer override, so it will come on a few times each day for a couple of minutes to freshen the cage up and get a bit of a breeze passing through.

This is the ventilation chimney - as well as a couple of 75mm vents that go straight out of the cage, there is an intake that enters a vent running between the two skins that form the top of the cage. This vent runs along the top to the right hand side, down the chimney into a fan house, where the fan blows the air out of the cage through an exhaust vent that will be built into the outer cladding:











This is the fan - I couldn't find a 230v computer-type fan in the UK, so I had this one shipped from Hungary. It attaches with 4 screws; the diamond cutout means it can be removed if needed (servicing / replacement etc). Once fitted, the cutouts around the fan are covered over with duct tape to prevent air from cycling:











Currently there are 3 lights in the cage, all individually controlled and timed. This will allow me to vary the light levels and temperature depending on the time of day, which should hopefully give Spyro a more realistic photoperiod. First thing in the morning, a 40W bulb will come on to illuminate the left hand side (the warm end) of the cage, providing enough light to wake him up, but not too much in the way of heat; the cage should be just above room temperature. After a couple of hours, the 40W turns off to be replaced by a MegaRay MVB on the warm side, and a low energy spotlight that brightens up the cool side. Around lunchtime, the 40W comes back on, trained on the basking spot, to make that area very hot and bright. The idea is that Spyro will now have to go and seek shade to avoid the midday sun, as wild beardies would. 

At around 2pm, the 40W turns off again, leaving just the MVB and low-energy bulb to provide "afternoon sun". The fan comes on a little later for a few minutes to put a gentle afternoon breeze through the cage and drop the temperature in preparation for the evening. At around 6pm, the MVB and low energy lights turn off, to be replaced by the 40W which will provide a little evening heat and light, but not much. Over the next hour or two the cage should cool down in preparation for nighttime. I'm still running testing on the timing system, so I don't yet have photos of all the different stages / light levels.


For the interior of the cage I wanted to do some fake rock.

I started out by cutting up and loose-fitting some insulation foam to form a basic layout. This was then carved and extra pieces were added to give it 3-D form. Unfortunately I got carried away carving and didn't take any photos until I had the basic shapes in place:











As the cage is being designed to encourage Spyro to hide at midday, he would need somewhere to hide. Using the insulation foam, I made a cave for him in the cool end. Worn sandstone pillars are one of those clichés that immediately spring to mind when I think of desert regions; I couldn't resist adding one in:











The paler surfaces are expanding foam that I used to fill gaps and to give me extra depth to the rock. Here's how it was looking after I'd almost finished the carving:











With the layout finished and glued in place, it was time to turn foam into rock. I used several thin layers of grout to achieve this. The first couple of layers were pretty watered down to make sure the grout got into every single crack in the foam. The first couple of layers were dark (still wet in the photo):










Followed by a few lighter layers:










The final layer was pure white, to give me a good surface to paint onto. I slowly built up the texture on the grout. Because I was planning to give the rocks several layers of paint, I had to exaggerate any textures slightly, as the paint has a slight smoothing effect:


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## HadesDragons

Due to lack of suitably coloured (non-calci) sand for the substrate, I decided to go for more of a brown-honey-coloured rock, rather than the stereotypical red Aussie sandstone look. It also means the cage is more flexible in what it houses - I'm sure a group of Collared lizards would do alright in it with a few minor adjustments, for example.

The basecoat I chose was a dark crimson-red. By starting out with a red colour and building up highlights over it, the rocks will end up with a slight reddish tint to them, especially in shadowed areas:










Most of the basecoat was then highlighed to an orangey-brown. Red was left only in deep cracks and recesses:










I then started building up a honey-coloured highlight. As the paint is still very wet in this photo, the colour is distorted slightly:











Overall the cage had 10 or so different layers of paint on it, each one a slight step towards the final colour that I wanted. By using thinner and drier coats, you can get paint to build up more on raised surfaces than recessed ones, to give you texture. These photos are taken part-way through the painting to show how the highlights are slowly building up:






































As Spyro currently spends most of his time standing up at the glass head bobbing at things in the room, I decided to make a few perches along the front of this cage for him to sit on and watch what's going on in the room. These were grouted and painted in the same way as the rest of the cage:










This is a closeup of the side of the basking area, showing the texture, shapes and highlighting. As with most of these photos, the paint hasn't fully cured and still has a sheen to it. Once it's properly dried out and the cage has some sand in, the sheen will disappear:











This is the interior almost finished. I didn't paint over the first coat that I put on the floor (it will be covered with substrate) so you can see the contrast between the basecoat and the final colour:











These are a couple of close-ups of the final colour and texture:




















Still to do:

- Cut and fit glass runners / glass
- Cladding for sides and front
- Frame for front
- Finish electrical testing
- Some long grasses to give the grotto a bit more shelter
- Exhaust vent for the ventilation system
- Outer skin for the top
- Varnishing / sealing
- Temperature testing


All being well the cage will be up and running sometime next week, and totally finished in a week or so. I'll then have to wait for sealants / varnishes etc to totally dry before Spyro can move in.

Updates to follow...


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## basil

wow!!!!!! that is very impressive. I wish i had the talent to do something like that. Cant wait to see the end result.


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## zemanski

stunning:flrt:


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## fantapants

looking good Andy, i am planning on something similar myself in septmeber . I am getting quite good at the whole fake rock thing now. I have been using a sandstone colour grout to give me the background colour and adding highlights on top of that. Its amazing what you can do isnt it! what will you be sealing the paint with? 

I am very curious as to how you plan to control the lights on an automated sytem. I already use a mix of MVB and low wattage lights for illumination. i love the idea of creating a natural rise and fall of temps over the day but havent been too sure how to go about it on an automated level. How will you be doing it? will it be a circuit that you have made yourself or have you found an alternative way? I would find it very useful, not only for my beardies but also for my leopard tortoises. theyhave very similar requirements but on a MUCH bigger scale.


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## Durhamchance

Thats brilliant! I'd love to have the time to make something like that.


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## kinger88

Same question as above, what are you gonna be using to seal the paint?
Looks really good, hope mine looks that good when i get it done!


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## reptiles_galore

im acctaully making my beardies basking spot as we speak i have a bowl of grout and polystirene next to me, lol. wish me luck. he is watching me make it now.

that is veryimpresive and i can only hope mine comes out half as good


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## HadesDragons

zemon said:


> as we speak i have a bowl of grout and polystirene next to me, lol. wish me luck.


Grout + computer = baaaaaad idea 


Cheers everyone - I've not decided exactly which sealant I'm going to use. The strength of the UV rules most out, so I may end up trying to find some sort of clear matt sealant intended for external marine use that has a decent UV filter. Something like epoxy isn't UV resistant and will degrade at high UV levels; PVA and suchlike wouldn't give me the finish I'm after. I'm going to wait for the paint to dry to see how resilient it is (and how much protection it's likely to need), then phone around some marine paint manufacturers to get their ideas.

To give you an idea of the strength of the UV, the bulb-basking spot distance is around 14"; over that distance a ReptiSun 10% would be giving you just under 30uW/cm2; I'm expecting mine to be up around 300uW/cm2 (equivalent of ~10-12 RS10s), hence the reason for needing to put hides in. To compare that to nature, Alice Springs has been recorded as having 300-350uW/cm2 at mid-morning and up to 500uW/cm2 at midday. In their summer (December-time), the UV intensity passes 30uW/cm2 at around 7am, hence why captive beardies don't get enough UV to produce sufficient D3. My cage isn't going to be totally "full-strength", but it's getting towards it - hopefully it should be sufficient to convince him not to spend all day out in the open. 

With that strength of UV, he shouldn't really need a D3 supplement - possibly something like Dragon Dust a couple of times a week in addition to pure calcium, rather than something stronger like Nutrobal. I will need to compare the levels of other vitamins / minerals in the two though and adjust / modify accordingly...


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## cmmercer

That looks absolutely stunning. Can I ask what kind of foam it is that you use for a project like this, where you buy it from (and an approximate cost) please? I'm just looking to finish my beardies enclosure this week as I pick him up in the next week or two, and something like this (although I'm not so sure I could pull something off at quite that scale so maybe i'll try something a bit smaller) would look fantastic.

Thanks.

I hope yours is coming along well now. :2thumb:


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## reptiles_galore

any updates?


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## Reptilover

Thats one amazing viv!!!


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## HadesDragons

I've not got much to add just yet, but I've got the lighting sequences worked out now.

Early Morning / Evening:









Mid-late Morning / Mid-late Afternoon:









Midday / Early Afternoon:


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## littlespark

absolutely amazing! can't wait to see it when its finished, you have 1 lucky spyro


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## fantapants

how are you contrilling the lights? is each one on an individual timer or have you figured out a way to do it all through one system? this is really intriguing because all of my animals could do with a system like this but the only way icould think to do it is with lots of timers all set individually.


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## HadesDragons

tinkerbruce said:


> how are you contrilling the lights? is each one on an individual timer or have you figured out a way to do it all through one system? this is really intriguing because all of my animals could do with a system like this but the only way icould think to do it is with lots of timers all set individually.


I was thinking of using a control panel for it, but as I had loads of digital timers lying around I've just used a surge-protected extension lead with a bank of synchronised, individually-programmed mini timers on it. The control panel would be neater and probably cheaper if you are planning on doing it on a large scale, but as I had the timers lying around anyway it seemed pointless not to use them.


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## Esarosa

That is amazing!


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## Heim

Excuse me for a lil thread hi-jacking (you can have it back when im done  lol), but it looks like you've done a good amount of research on lighting levels for your beardies.

My quick question: have you ever tried using a low watage soft 'blue' light in the evenings to mimic the moonlight? I have not heard of people using a blue light (seen plenty with red). I would be really curious as to know the effects this could have on reps, especially nocturnal ones.


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## fantapants

HadesDragons said:


> I was thinking of using a control panel for it, but as I had loads of digital timers lying around I've just used a surge-protected extension lead with a bank of synchronised, individually-programmed mini timers on it. The control panel would be neater and probably cheaper if you are planning on doing it on a large scale, but as I had the timers lying around anyway it seemed pointless not to use them.


 
i have just ordered a few control panels for my lighting systems. I get what you mean about using individual timers, this is how i have done it up to now.But , if you have got atleast 3 timers on the go for the various lights, will the viv still be stat controlled? and if you still use a stat, where will it be plugged in and what will it control? i have figured out that even though control paels and stats are a good thing, once you strat trying to modify the controls to suit an individual design, it can get rather confusing!


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## HadesDragons

Heim said:


> Excuse me for a lil thread hi-jacking (you can have it back when im done  lol), but it looks like you've done a good amount of research on lighting levels for your beardies.
> 
> My quick question: have you ever tried using a low watage soft 'blue' light in the evenings to mimic the moonlight? I have not heard of people using a blue light (seen plenty with red). I would be really curious as to know the effects this could have on reps, especially nocturnal ones.


I've never tried using the soft lights, but most beardies go to sleep as soon as it starts to get a bit dimmer and cooler in their cage - I don't think they'd be awake long enough to appreciate it to be honest!! I know from the time I've spent in desert areas that the local diurnal reptiles are taking themselves away to bed long before it gets dark.

I have seen cages where people have used a couple of LEDs in leopard gecko cages (a crepescular species) to create a really gentle glow at night; I don't know if it made a difference to their behaviour at all, but it apparently made it easier to see the geckos in the evening, which is when they tend to be most active. 

At a guess I'd say it might be useful for crepescular species for a couple of hours after lights out / a couple of hours before lights on if they're kept in a darkened room. I don't know how well fully nocturnal species would use it, as they often have other mechanisms in place to deal with cloudy nights / new moons etc. You'd probably want to speak to long-term gecko keepers about that though - they might be able to give you more insight.



tinkerbruce said:


> i have just ordered a few control panels for my lighting systems. I get what you mean about using individual timers, this is how i have done it up to now.But , if you have got atleast 3 timers on the go for the various lights, will the viv still be stat controlled? and if you still use a stat, where will it be plugged in and what will it control? i have figured out that even though control paels and stats are a good thing, once you strat trying to modify the controls to suit an individual design, it can get rather confusing!


The "stat" in my cage is the ventilation system - the lights themselves are unregulated, but there is an extraction system that will simply suck all the hot air out of the cage if it starts getting too warm. Once I get the glass fitted I'm going to play around with wattages to try and get it so the fan should never have to be used as a stat (it's there as backup for really hot days). Using a stat as a safety backup rather than as a control mechanism means that the cage temperature won't be constant and will fluctuate with room temperature / outside temperature / the weather etc.

If I was going to conventionally stat it, there would be two ways you could do it. First would be to use an on / off stat on the MVB, again with it only being intended as a safety cutout, rather than to actually control the temperature. The MVB is the only bulb with any real heating power (the other two bulbs are 40W and 11W; in a cage that size they simply wouldn't have the power to overheat it). The system is designed so that the MVB provides the main heating, with the other bulbs being used to "tweak" temperatures during the day. The second way would be to again use an on / off stat (you don't have a choice with MVBs), then have a power feed from the stat to 2-3 separate timers, which control the lights. If the cage gets too hot, it turns out the power to all lights. I'd prefer the first method, otherwise the cage will end up at its darkest when it's also at its hottest - very confusing for whatever reptile you keep inside the cage! 

The same principle would apply to a control panel - in the first case, the stat would control the power on one of the power feeds from the panel; in the second case the stat would have to be controlling the power to the actual panel, not the power from the panel - when it got too hot the stat would cut power to the panel, which would obviously also cut all power to all bulbs.


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## koechingkampung

@hadesdragon:
its an absolutely cool viv..

i wanna ask bout the grout.. what kind of grout did u used? mixed of cement and sand or epoxy and sand?

i really want to do sum experiment... hehehe...


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## JonnyEmm

Hi,

I noticed that you state you used "Expanding Foam" to fill some of the gaps in your rock formations. I want to use some in my snake vivarium but was unsure if this was safe to use or not. Can you confirm this and if so confirm how long you had to leave it before it was considered to be "safe" ?

I have some "unibond - no more gaps" which i havent been unable to confirm whether i can use this or not ?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated !

Cheers,

Jonny.


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## fantapants

JonnyEmm said:


> Hi,
> 
> I noticed that you state you used "Expanding Foam" to fill some of the gaps in your rock formations. I want to use some in my snake vivarium but was unsure if this was safe to use or not. Can you confirm this and if so confirm how long you had to leave it before it was considered to be "safe" ?
> 
> I have some "unibond - no more gaps" which i havent been unable to confirm whether i can use this or not ?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated !
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jonny.


 
i have used this stuff on all of my vivs and its great. it takes a while to go fully hard but once its covered in grout is fine. Aslong as the viv is left to "air" when it finished, preferably with the heat lamps on full whack to disperse any fumes, its perfectly safe.


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## JonnyEmm

tinkerbruce said:


> i have used this stuff on all of my vivs and its great. it takes a while to go fully hard but once its covered in grout is fine. Aslong as the viv is left to "air" when it finished, preferably with the heat lamps on full whack to disperse any fumes, its perfectly safe.


Hi,

Is it necessary to cover in grout or can it be left directly exposed. I managed to burn a hole in my nice brand spanking new herptek viv :blush: And want to use this to fill the gap, believe it or not.

Cheers,

Jonathan.


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## HadesDragons

The viv is pretty much finished now and Spyro's moved in! All that's left to do is to find some wood to make an outer skin at the top, but that can wait for a bit.

Here's how it's looking - you can just see his head at the bottom of the photo:





























The substrate is a mixture of dried bamboo leaves, sand, and chunks of stone:











Cool end, with the shaded grotto area to the left:











Hopefully this gives an idea of the scale of things:










Chilling out above the grotto:











And a couple of closeups:




















With him having only been in for a couple of days it's too early to say whether or not it's made a difference to his behaviour - for the last couple of days he's been unusually active though, probably due to the new surroundings.


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## indigo_rock_girl

looks BRILL :2thumb:
ind
xxx


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## littlespark

looks absolutely fab! what a lucky beardie!!!!


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## cmmercer

It looks amazing - you've done a great job - I'd love to try something like this myself

:2thumb:


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## macca 59

All your hard work has certainly paid off, fantastic viv :no1:


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## MrMike

Wow is all I can say, amazing job. :2thumb:


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## Galaxy Girl

when you get a free five minutes could you pop over and do that to my beardie vivs please!!!:notworthy:


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## sammydevil9

*my geckos*

gizmo and bobble cute.1.


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## HadesDragons

Cheers guys - Spyro seems to be settling in nicely - he's dug himself out a leaf-lined nest in his grotto that he sleeps in and spends most of his time bright yellow :2thumb: 

Next up is a new viv for my cornsnake in the new year, then a Tegu cage later on in 2009 - can't wait to get started!!




Galaxy Girl said:


> when you get a free five minutes could you pop over and do that to my beardie vivs please!!!


Well I would but I've just checked my diary and I'm afraid I'm going to be too busy for the next few years :Na_Na_Na_Na: You could always have a go yourself though - it just takes patience...



sammydevil9 said:


> gizmo and bobble cute.1.


Thanks - I think...? :whistling2:


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## fantapants

thats looking great Andy. did you varnish over the paint?


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## HadesDragons

tinkerbruce said:


> thats looking great Andy. did you varnish over the paint?


Thanks! I decided not to in the end - it's not likely to get wet, I can't scratch the paint so Spyro shouldn't be able to either, and I wanted to see how well acrylic stands up to UV and heat so I'll know for future vivs. If it does start to get damaged it's not too much trouble to repaint the interior but to use a sealant / varnish / do it with a different finish etc.


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## rob_arthur

just read through the whole thread. and what an amazing job you have done. looks real good and has got to have a positive affect on sypro.

im looking at getting a desert iggy and have open access to lots of foam material and fillers etc at work. i have been thinking of making a real nice life like viv and this has cetainly given me lots of ideas. 

top work.

rob


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## Toeboe

Great job, and brilliant progress report from inception to completion. :notworthy:
Just a quick Q, what kind of paint did you use?


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## Schneddon

looks really amazing I'd love tyo try something like that but not enough time atm as looking for a new job lol... aaa the joys of working for bradford and bingley lol


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## ady365d

:notworthy:first class viv mate :no1: if i had some spare time id like to do something similar , i love my gadgets as much as me reps what a great way to combine them!!! next you will be looking into a way of fitting some kind of catalytic converter/air freshener to the exhast chimney to dispell the ransid smell of beardie poo!!! hhhhmmmm got me thinkin now!!:2thumb:


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## Marinam2

My god you are so tallented!!!

Tell me does it ever get cricket damaged??

Marina


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## mell

:notworthy: wow thats amazing would love to make one for mine but i wouldn't no where to start. you've got 1 lucky beardy


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## 15060

Im seriously impressed, WANNA JOB??.......lol


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## Elmodfz

:censor: hell!!!!!


Good heavens, i mean, how the hell???

I think the following smilies show my thought pattern:

:hmm:mg::shock::mf_dribble::2thumb::no1:

:notworthy:


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## HadesDragons

Thanks again guys, I'd completely forgotten to do an update to this thread!!

As winter approaches, I'm going to be looking at ways to incorporate temperature and day length changes into the cage. I'll probably switch down to a lower powered MVB (to reduce both temperature and UV intensity), as well as changing the timer sequences to give a longer "early morning" and "evening" time, when it's still a bit light in the cage but not much warmer than room temperature. Even countries that are normally very hot take a while to warm up in the winter. My current plan is to give him background light for 12 hours per day using the 40W bulb, along with a warmer mid-morning / afternoon using the MVB when some basking will be possible. I'll give him a short (perhaps an hour or two) period with all of the lights on around midday, so he can bask at a higher temperature for a little while if he wants to.




Marinam2 said:


> Tell me does it ever get cricket damaged??


It's never had the chance to - Spyro generally won't eat crickets at the best of times. Because I have several thousand roaches breeding away and no babies to feed at the minute, I don't even order crickets in anymore. Spyro gets locusts, roaches and morio worms, along with the occasional other insect for variety. I'd guess if he did eat crickets and they were left in there for a period of time (which wouldn't be such a good idea), they may start to damage it. I don't know though, as it's pretty tough. 

So far Spyro has only managed to make a couple of tiny chips in the paint - about the size of a . - from where he's been standing up scratching. When I come to reconfigure the lights for the winter, I'll probably move him out for a couple of days (it's safer to mess with lights when nothing lives in the cage!) Whilst he's out of the cage, I may use the time to touch up the couple of chips, and possibly use epoxy to put a layer of sand on the "high-traffic areas" to give them a bit more protection from his claws for the future. I suspect that the paint on its own will be tough enough for 99% of the cage, but it's the areas like the corner of the grotto (where he digs before bed time) and the rocks along the front (where he stands, scratches and fall off of) may start to get damaged over time.


I've also noticed some changes in his behaviour since the move. He shows his full yellow colours a lot more, despite usually being at the same body temperature as he used to be at (I don't know if it's an effect of the increased UV, the increased brightness, or the view of a different room).

He is also far more active. The basking spot is a bit hotter than in his old cage (up to 135f surface temperature or so at midday), so rather than sitting for a while to warm up then moving, he spends a lot of time running around, returns to bask for 5 minutes or so, then is off running around again. At midday he usually retreats to either the full shade of the grotto, or the partial shade of a tree stump in the cool end. It's rare to see him directly under the basking light between 12-2pm, although he will occasionally go under it for a brief period of time. Usually he just sleeps through midday, and is much more active in late morning / mid-afternoon.

I'm also seeing a lot of pretty interesting territorial displays from him - it only took him a couple of days to figure out how to climb onto the ledge above the grotto, and he now sometimes goes up there to head bob. I guess it must give him a better view of the room (his territory). When the cage is cooler he sometimes goes up on top of the ledge and lies down looking out. I've found him sleeping on there a couple of times, tucked into the leaves that overhang it. Going back to the head bobbing, he makes full use of the space he now has. I've put a small tree stump in the cool end, and a piece of grapevine in the warm end. Combined with the basking spot, the cage now has a rough W shape to it when viewed from the front, with 3 defined "peaks". It's not uncommon to see him run from one peak to another, head bob, run to another, head bob, run to another etc. He's obviously not shy about letting people know that they are in his territory!!


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## Kellybee

Could I ask where did you buy the foam from? I mean the insulating foam not the filler?

Also, how does it smell? I attempted similar last year and found that the smell from the paint just never went away, and I never was able to use the viv until I grouted over the top of it.


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## HadesDragons

Kellybee said:


> Could I ask where did you buy the foam from? I mean the insulating foam not the filler?
> 
> Also, how does it smell? I attempted similar last year and found that the smell from the paint just never went away, and I never was able to use the viv until I grouted over the top of it.



The insulating foam is from B&Q. The smell is fine, although I did leave it for a while to air and to make sure everything's properly cured...


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## Mirf

This is probably a really stupid question, so I apologise in advance :blush:, but where is the uvb tube/bulb?

I really want to enhance my beardies viv but I have a 30 inch uvb tube stuck to the back of the viv which is hampering all attempts at 'rock walling'.


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## jonnyjr

The MVB bulb provides heat and UV in one so no need for a Uv tube, but you could attach yours to the roof of your enclosure with a reflector.


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## Mirf

The viv is 29 inches tall, would a reflector allow enough uvb to reach him, as I know it should be within 12 inches of the reptile? 

Apologies for hi-jacking the thread.:blush:


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## The Roach Hut

*re*

Andy this is a brilliant post and very informative, I have just read through the entire thing. I have recently moved and have just got a house with an integral garage which is going to be converted into my rep room.

I plan on building quite a few vivs like this and ove the design... where did u get ur mvb from and what make were they, I have read the website regarding the testing of these and love the way its been done in spyros viv.

Also one other thing the fan exhaust system. I love the idea but i dont understand where the flow comes from within the viv as in the pic the ducting chimney looks sealed all the way to the top of the viv. if u could give me an idea id appreciate it.

Il be sure to let u know how it goes, oh and what did that build cost in total mate if u dont mind me asking


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## The Roach Hut

*re*

sorry forgot to ask, did u just brush the paint on and what make was it and a list of colours be great ta


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## HadesDragons

FireDragon said:


> Andy this is a brilliant post and very informative, I have just read through the entire thing. I have recently moved and have just got a house with an integral garage which is going to be converted into my rep room.
> 
> I plan on building quite a few vivs like this and ove the design... where did u get ur mvb from and what make were they, I have read the website regarding the testing of these and love the way its been done in spyros viv.
> 
> Also one other thing the fan exhaust system. I love the idea but i dont understand where the flow comes from within the viv as in the pic the ducting chimney looks sealed all the way to the top of the viv. if u could give me an idea id appreciate it.
> 
> Il be sure to let u know how it goes, oh and what did that build cost in total mate if u dont mind me asking
> 
> sorry forgot to ask, did u just brush the paint on and what make was it and a list of colours be great ta


Cheers mate - I'd love to see what you can come up with!

The MVB is a 160W MegaRay from Kimbo's Reptile World. I'm currently waiting on a 100W MegaRay to arrive (it was due in September, but I'm in the process of chasing it up) which will be used over the winter to reduce UV levels and overall temperature. Right under the MVB in his cage, you'd be looking at around 300uW/cm2 of UV - roughly equivalent to mid-morning / afternoon sun in the Aussie summer. Because of the spread pattern of the MVB and the contours of the cage, Spyro has got a range of UV intensities that he can bask at.

I didn't make the exhaust system very clear did I? Sorry about that. Basically the top of the cage is double-skinned with all the wiring and a duct running between the skins - this is during construction:










The air duct runs under the L-shaped piece of wood on the right hand side. There is an intake vent in the top of the cage at one end of the L, and the duct connects to the chimney at the other end of the L:










Thus the air is drawn in above the cool end, sucked along the duct to the chimney, down inside the chimney and out of the vents in the outer skin of the side of the cage.

I chose to leave the skins uninsulated due to the high amount of energy from the MVB (I used it for the UV output, but could have easily used a lower wattage bulb and put a layer of polystyrene between the skins at the top to keep the heat in.

The paint was acrylic applied with a brush, but I varied the water content of the paint and the thickness of each coat to build up a 3D effect. Each coat was mixed, but I used a combination of Burnt Umber, Raw Umber, Burnt Sienna, Raw Sienna, Black, White and a couple of others (they were only small pots and I don't have them anymore...)

Pricewise it was pretty expensive - I haven't yet tried to work out exactly how much it all cost as I've got a few more things I want to do to it. It will be several hundred pounds, but I think I should have stayed under the £500 mark; by how much I don't know though. It's a lot just for a cage, but it's something I've wanted to do for a long time, and is part of my long term plans for a new beardie room.


----------



## Cockys Royals

Well done on you


----------



## The Roach Hut

HadesDragons said:


> Cheers mate - I'd love to see what you can come up with!
> 
> The MVB is a 160W MegaRay from Kimbo's Reptile World. I'm currently waiting on a 100W MegaRay to arrive (it was due in September, but I'm in the process of chasing it up) which will be used over the winter to reduce UV levels and overall temperature. Right under the MVB in his cage, you'd be looking at around 300uW/cm2 of UV - roughly equivalent to mid-morning / afternoon sun in the Aussie summer. Because of the spread pattern of the MVB and the contours of the cage, Spyro has got a range of UV intensities that he can bask at.
> 
> I didn't make the exhaust system very clear did I? Sorry about that. Basically the top of the cage is double-skinned with all the wiring and a duct running between the skins - this is during construction:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The air duct runs under the L-shaped piece of wood on the right hand side. There is an intake vent in the top of the cage at one end of the L, and the duct connects to the chimney at the other end of the L:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thus the air is drawn in above the cool end, sucked along the duct to the chimney, down inside the chimney and out of the vents in the outer skin of the side of the cage.
> 
> I chose to leave the skins uninsulated due to the high amount of energy from the MVB (I used it for the UV output, but could have easily used a lower wattage bulb and put a layer of polystyrene between the skins at the top to keep the heat in.
> 
> The paint was acrylic applied with a brush, but I varied the water content of the paint and the thickness of each coat to build up a 3D effect. Each coat was mixed, but I used a combination of Burnt Umber, Raw Umber, Burnt Sienna, Raw Sienna, Black, White and a couple of others (they were only small pots and I don't have them anymore...)
> 
> Pricewise it was pretty expensive - I haven't yet tried to work out exactly how much it all cost as I've got a few more things I want to do to it. It will be several hundred pounds, but I think I should have stayed under the £500 mark; by how much I don't know though. It's a lot just for a cage, but it's something I've wanted to do for a long time, and is part of my long term plans for a new beardie room.


Thanks andy. i really appreciate the help and im in the process of building 2 6x3x3 vivs to start my garage, so they will be decent size vivs. and the rest will be 5x2x2 for the rest of my dragons. i love the exhaust system and i thank you for getting back to me mate... im sure my blood reds will love the 6x3x3 when they are in there and likewise my leucistics in the other one.

Do you have a pic with the skins on or have u not completed them yet? and what else do u have planned for it.... my theory is why reinvent the wheel? so i may as well take advice from someone who already done it and masterd it.

Tony


----------



## HadesDragons

FireDragon said:


> Thanks andy. i really appreciate the help and im in the process of building 2 6x3x3 vivs to start my garage, so they will be decent size vivs. and the rest will be 5x2x2 for the rest of my dragons. i love the exhaust system and i thank you for getting back to me mate... im sure my blood reds will love the 6x3x3 when they are in there and likewise my leucistics in the other one.
> 
> Do you have a pic with the skins on or have u not completed them yet? and what else do u have planned for it.... my theory is why reinvent the wheel? so i may as well take advice from someone who already done it and masterd it.
> 
> Tony


I've not attached the top skin yet - I'm waiting until I get the 100W 'winter' MegaRay so I can decide whether or not it will need insulating for the winter. The sides are on, but this is about the best photo I've got of them:










They're made of thin, varnished pine cladding. You can just about see the two exhaust vents from the fan housing as well.


As for other plans, I want to see how it holds up before I make and drastic changes. I've had a chat with a couple of people who have made large fake rockscapes before and have got a couple of ideas that I may try. If I can find the right coloured sand / dirt I might try recoating the heavy-traffic areas in a mixture of resin and dirt to make them a little more hard wearing. So far the cage has held up, but I don't know how the paint will do long-term.


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## The Roach Hut

*re*

an awesum job mate and thanks for sorting them out for me. once i do mine il do a post and send u the link... il even put a foot note aspired by hadesdragons lol


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## lesleykno

Looks great. This could become the next project for science club. I wonder if our students could make something like this for our school viv.:lol2:
What type of paint did you use?


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## lesleykno

sorry, it tells me you used acrylic paint. :bash:


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## kirsten

thats the most awesome thing i've ever seen!!! i'd love that sort of thing done for my leo's, i was trtying to plan a natural environment for them, compacted sand and real plants with an exo tarra back ground, but what you've done, is just amazing!!! i wouldn't know where to start with that sort of thing, let alone know what supplies to use!!! with that sort of creative streak i'd love you to come round and do my 4ft fish tank!!!

i'm am so impressed i just can't express it properly


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## cmmercer

The viv looks fantastic now that its nearly all done. what happens if you need to get the glass out? lol. Your article convinced me to try my own project for my beardie. don't have an images of it right now, but I tried to see if it fitted in the viv yesterday and it was a bit of a squeeze lol. And that was without paint eek!! but thumbs up to you sir!!


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## reptiles_galore

cmmercer said:


> The viv looks fantastic now that its nearly all done. what happens if you need to get the glass out? lol. Your article convinced me to try my own project for my beardie. don't have an images of it right now, but I tried to see if it fitted in the viv yesterday and it was a bit of a squeeze lol. And that was without paint eek!! but thumbs up to you sir!!


 
oops
forgot to try see if mine would fit doh 

btw this is one of the best ones i have evver seen


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## The Roach Hut

*re*

Hi Andy

Well after having spoken with u about the ventilation i started to work... only thing was that i decided to go mad and built an 8x3x3 for my bloods. it is huge. the carcas is built and am starting on the foam and let me tell you it swallows the stuff at this size lol... anyway i have a question im hoping u can answer for me before i finish the foam work....

when you applied your grout what did u use to apply it? was it yopur hands a brush or something else.. hoping to ave it finished by end of january. and one other thing if i was to use a control panel for the lighting what one would u suggest as u see to know a little about t..

cheers mate


Tony


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## HadesDragons

FireDragon said:


> Well after having spoken with u about the ventilation i started to work... only thing was that i decided to go mad and built an 8x3x3 for my bloods. it is huge. the carcas is built and am starting on the foam and let me tell you it swallows the stuff at this size lol... anyway i have a question im hoping u can answer for me before i finish the foam work....
> 
> when you applied your grout what did u use to apply it? was it yopur hands a brush or something else.. hoping to ave it finished by end of january. and one other thing if i was to use a control panel for the lighting what one would u suggest as u see to know a little about t..


Sounds pretty epic - they should love it once it's done!

I used slightly watered down grout and a paintbrush... a pretty small one (it must have been 1/2" - 3/4" across; sadly it didn't look too good after 5 coats of grout and is in paintbrush heaven so I can't check it). It meant I could get grout into all of the cracks without losing the shapes that I'd carved out of the foam.

I'm afraid I wouldn't know which control panel to suggest - if I had have decided to use one I'd have got my dad to sort one out for me, as he's pretty clued up on electrical / panel / wiring design. I don't really know the specifics of them (manufacturers etc) - just what they do and how you'd integrate on into the cage.


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## The Roach Hut

*re*

OK thanks for that i guess il have to troll the internet and see whats about..... one more thing what u use to carve ur foam was it just a knife or hot wire or something?


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## Jimi

What type of light socket did you use? 
I'm a Carpenter (renovator) and think i would like to try to make something like this!! You are very inspiring. I read the entire thread and i must say you have yourself an amazing talent!! I would like to see the new viv you are talking about building in the new year.


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## kewxedge

Just a thought - have you considered making custom viv's like this one on the side as a money earner?


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## Spence1

This is totally awesome, well done on such a great job!

Alex


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## kitty

oh my days!! i wish i had even half your talent. i just bought a 6ft viv for pheonix when i bring him/her home. would love something like this in it. maybe one day way way waaaaaaaaaaay in the future when im feeling brave ill give it ago (well the backing not the viv lol -- not that yours isnt amazing just hand me a drill n everything will crumble lol)

i was considering spyro as a name for my beardie but just decided on pheonix a few hours ago. now all thats to do is sort the viv n find my scaley friend lol

:flrt:love your creation

and wow to the person building an 8ft viv i cannot wait to see that, your reds will be in heaven


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## Raffa

I think im off to B&Q tomorrow 

The missis will be pleased.................................nevermind :lol2:


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## HadesDragons

Cheers again everyone! After 6 months of use there were a couple of chips in the paint - most of it had stood up admirably but there were a couple of small chips in the corners where Spyro had been digging, so I decided to look at an alternative surface for the cage.

After playing around with some old pieces of foam, I decided to try out some resin. I had considered coating the paint with a transparent resin, but a lot of resins don't have very good UV protection and discolour; under normal use the impact would be minimal, but in a cage that cage up to 350uW/cm2 right under the basking light on summer settings, it just wouldn't cut it without protection. In the end I settled on a covering of desert sand to give it some shielding. The end result after 3 coats of resin and two of sand is a cage that looks a lot harsher and grittier than the old one, but which seems to be a lot tougher. I smacked one of my trial sections with a hammer and it's still in one piece... :whistling2:

It also gives the cage a really nice rough finish - rough enough infact that I'm now missing the skin from a lot of my knuckles after trying to apply coats of resin into tight corners of the cage:





























Spyro is currently brumating in another cage and is pretty grumpy if woken up, so I decided to get Millie, Lisa and Summer to do some modelling in the cage. As it's not being used just yet I've not put any of the dried leaves in, just some red desert sand:





































The cage is now set to winter time, with a lower wattage MVB. This will reduce the daylight hours, as well as reducing the temperature and the UV intensity. I've got a couple more tweaks to do before I move Spyro back in full-time and start thinking about bringing him out of brumation.


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## The Roach Hut

*re*

well thanks for the update mate as im just about to finsh the foaming on my 8 x 3 x 3 cant believe how long the foam work has taken and its swallowed nearly a 120 quids worth of the stuff, saying that tho ive gone for the full 3d effect lol... im still thinking of painting it and finding some sort of resin or varnish.... have u thought about marine varnish? as this is designed to stand up to very high UV levels. 

Should only be another 3 or 4 weeks then il post what i have done for mine for ppl to read. taken a few ideas from yours as you inspired me with your post as i have said in previous pages.

let me know how the sand works out mate.

Tony


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## kevin cross

HadesDragons said:


> Cheers again everyone! After 6 months of use there were a couple of chips in the paint - most of it had stood up admirably but there were a couple of small chips in the corners where Spyro had been digging, so I decided to look at an alternative surface for the cage.
> 
> After playing around with some old pieces of foam, I decided to try out some resin. I had considered coating the paint with a transparent resin, but a lot of resins don't have very good UV protection and discolour; under normal use the impact would be minimal, but in a cage that cage up to 350uW/cm2 right under the basking light on summer settings, it just wouldn't cut it without protection. In the end I settled on a covering of desert sand to give it some shielding. The end result after 3 coats of resin and two of sand is a cage that looks a lot harsher and grittier than the old one, but which seems to be a lot tougher. I smacked one of my trial sections with a hammer and it's still in one piece... :whistling2:
> 
> It also gives the cage a really nice rough finish - rough enough infact that I'm now missing the skin from a lot of my knuckles after trying to apply coats of resin into tight corners of the cage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spyro is currently brumating in another cage and is pretty grumpy if woken up, so I decided to get Millie, Lisa and Summer to do some modelling in the cage. As it's not being used just yet I've not put any of the dried leaves in, just some red desert sand:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cage is now set to winter time, with a lower wattage MVB. This will reduce the daylight hours, as well as reducing the temperature and the UV intensity. I've got a couple more tweaks to do before I move Spyro back in full-time and start thinking about bringing him out of brumation.


 looks totally awesome mate


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## rentonsmum

Hi, my son will be building his viv possibly with his grandad but more likely with me and this looks wonderful. I understand the way the venting system extracts the hot air, but am not sure how the air gets into the viv (sorry if this is a stupid question). I've seen the vivs in shops and some have vent strips that run the whole length while others have round ones in the sides or back.

My daughter is doing an electrical engineering course so she'll be doing that side of things with Renton - it'll be good for both of them. My dad is a lover of fibreglass (from his sailing)- would this be suitable for covering the fake rock construction? I love the use of desert sand while the resin is still wet, great result.

Also, I've seen posts on other sites where people use the type of styrofoam you get in packaging (lack of cost being the main reason), is this suitable rather than the stuff you get from b & q?

You've really inspired me and I can't wait to get started.


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## The Roach Hut

hot air comes from the lights within the viv. this is why they need ventilation. as the lights are on if it has no way to escape then the viv could quickly over heat.... all andy has done here is to get rid of the long or circular vents in order to use a powered ventilation system that can be hidden and as this is stat'd then as soon as it gets too warm the fan will switch on and suck out all the hot air. I am building my viv similar to this as i like the idea im at the painting stage it will be finished by middle of feb and the post will also be here. fiberglass be ok as its resin based, however this will make it hard for your animals to climb as they would slide unless u coat in sand. also it would greatly dampen your rock effect so u would have to over emphisise your cuts greatly. hope this answers your questions


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## The Roach Hut

ops just reread your post. the fresh air gets into a viv via a vent if u notice andy said there were two large vents into the viv besides the hot air. heres what i have done hope this helps explain it

here u can see where the pipe comes in from the left hand wall about 2 3rds the way down, then travels up the inside of the viv and through the roof. the reason for this is that i need the vent from the side as i will be putting other vivs on top so cant just come through the top. the pipe will be burried behind the rock work. it goes throught the roof of the viv










then travells along the roof in the cavity and they enters the roof again. so the closest pipe at an angle is the one thats just gone through the roof in the pic above.










now it enters back into the viv. and the only thing you will see in the viv will be where it enters everything else is hidden with rocks or in cavities, but this will allow a fresh air intake so that the fan when drawing out the hot air creates a vaccum and this pulls in fresh cool air.










This is the way i have done it anyway and its working real well. hope this helps.

Tony


----------



## HadesDragons

rentonsmum said:


> Hi, my son will be building his viv possibly with his grandad but more likely with me and this looks wonderful. I understand the way the venting system extracts the hot air, but am not sure how the air gets into the viv (sorry if this is a stupid question). I've seen the vivs in shops and some have vent strips that run the whole length while others have round ones in the sides or back.
> 
> My daughter is doing an electrical engineering course so she'll be doing that side of things with Renton - it'll be good for both of them. My dad is a lover of fibreglass (from his sailing)- would this be suitable for covering the fake rock construction? I love the use of desert sand while the resin is still wet, great result.
> 
> Also, I've seen posts on other sites where people use the type of styrofoam you get in packaging (lack of cost being the main reason), is this suitable rather than the stuff you get from b & q?
> 
> You've really inspired me and I can't wait to get started.


Thanks - best of luck with it! 

There are a couple of regular 75mm vents in the top of the cage as well - because the cage is warmer than ambient temperature, and hot air rises, a couple of vents in the top will likely give more air exchange than having a strip along the whole length of the back. It only really works if there's nothing going on top of the viv though... Air also gets in the crack between the panes of glass that make up the front, as well as round the sides of the glass. As I'm not too bothered about the hot end temperatures (the theory being that - within reason - if they get too hot Spyro just won't go there and will stay in the cooler end as basking reptiles do during the hottest times of the day), the cage is designed mainly to keep the cool end cool. Under normal conditions, the hot air rises from the hot end, and cool air sinks into the cool end. Thus there's a passive cycle formed that way. If the cool end is still too warm, the hot air is extracted from the cool end, and replaced with some air from the warm end which in turn is also extracted, as well as room-temperature air from outside (via the crack between the glass etc). The cave stays cool at all times though because it's enclosed, shaded and well-insulated - hot air just doesn't get into it.

As long as the resin is temperature resistant and sets properly so it's fume-free it should be fine. I wouldn't recommend using the fibreglass matting though unless you were planning on moulding it; just use the resin. If you use the matting and try to build up layers it may be harder to get a smooth finish, and you'd probably end up with fibres poking through. The resin I used was part of a fibreglassing kit for car bodywork; it's probably cheaper than marine-spec fibreglass at any rate!

Regular polystyrene could easily be used - I've used it before when I've been messing around, but it tends to be a lot more crumbly and messy than the higher-density insulation foam. The insulation foam is also a bit more rigid and incompressible, so it will give the grout more support than polystyrene would. If you're planning on going over the grout in resin it shouldn't make too much of a difference, as the resin will give it a lot of extra strength. Even if using resin, I'd still recommend going over it with a couple of layers of grout first - it's much easier to fill in the cracks and get nice smooth contours with a thicker mixture of grout than it is with really runny resin.



FireDragon said:


> heres what i have done hope this helps explain it
> 
> Tony


Looking great Tony - I'm just about to have a look at the thread you made so I'll leave some better comments on there!


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## thetomahawkkid58

hey andy..........seen your update on the sealing part. you said you used "two part resin" mixed with sand, it looks absolutely amazing, could you tell me what two part resin you used. many thanks.


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## otb2

This looks awesome!!!
great idea with the vent system.

cheers for posting it!! :2thumb:


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## hummingburd

im building a huge viv for my 4 bearded dragons... the girls are gonna love it and seeing you guys with all thses ideas really helps. thank you so much and keep posting these pictures. :2thumb::no1:


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## HadesDragons

thetomahawkkid58 said:


> hey andy..........seen your update on the sealing part. you said you used "two part resin" mixed with sand, it looks absolutely amazing, could you tell me what two part resin you used. many thanks.


I can't remember the brand off the top of my head - it was some stuff I had lying around. As long as you air it out properly and seal it, I would imagine that most two-part resins suitable for doing bodywork repairs should be fine : victory:



otb2 said:


> This looks awesome!!!
> great idea with the vent system.
> 
> cheers for posting it!! :2thumb:





hummingburd said:


> im building a huge viv for my 4 bearded dragons... the girls are gonna love it and seeing you guys with all thses ideas really helps. thank you so much and keep posting these pictures. :2thumb::no1:



Thanks :notworthy:

I'm planning on getting my camera out in the next few days so I'll add a few new photos of how it's all bedding in.

Good luck with making yours hummingburd - post up some photos when it's done!


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## otb2

Hows the vent system holding out? Is it working like you hoped? 

I think a new beardie viv is on the cards after i refurb my frilleds viv!!

: victory:


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## HadesDragons

otb2 said:


> Hows the vent system holding out? Is it working like you hoped?
> 
> I think a new beardie viv is on the cards after i refurb my frilleds viv!!
> 
> : victory:


To be honest it's not seen a great deal of use as a stat - the vents in the top of the cool end let out most of the excess heat on that side, so the fan system is only really there to freshen things up a little, and for the summer on hot days.

Overall I'm still really happy with how it turned out; using the sand / resin mix has made a huge difference to Spyro as it makes it a lot easier for him to get around and to climb up onto his shelf to perch on. It does mean that the locusts can freely walk around on the sides of the cage now though, which makes feeding time a bit more interesting... :whistling2:


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## magic00

*very impressive*

flicked through your thread reading bits and looking at you viv is very impressive. how much time do you think you put into it in total. and hope spyro liked it after all that effort.


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## funkyboogalooo

Would a finish like this be ok for Cresties?
Cheers
Mike


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## HadesDragons

magic00 said:


> flicked through your thread reading bits and looking at you viv is very impressive. how much time do you think you put into it in total. and hope spyro liked it after all that effort.


Erm... lots...?

I didn't really keep track, but it would be an hour or two most evenings for a good few weeks in total, plus some afternoons on weekends. It took a while but it's totally worth it for the difference it's made to Spyro!



funkyboogalooo said:


> Would a finish like this be ok for Cresties?
> Cheers
> Mike


I'm not sure as cresties aren't really my thing - it feels like rough sandstone, so may be a little too rough for cresties? I'm sure they'd cope with a few rocks made like this but if you were to do the entire cage you might want to look at using a smoother finish for it.


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## AraCyanea

So, in total, how much would you say this cost you? Not cheap I am guessing


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## ch4dg

x-istealbears said:


> So, in total, how much would you say this cost you? Not cheap I am guessing


the last post on this thread is from mar 2009, so you'll best bet is to pm him,

but depending on the materials and brands, and where you get them from the background shouldnt go over £30: victory:


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## AraCyanea

ch4dg said:


> the last post on this thread is from mar 2009, so you'll best bet is to pm him,
> 
> but depending on the materials and brands, and where you get them from the background shouldnt go over £30:victory:


I know you would easily know :b you're the guy that has done all the Jurassic park themed ones if I am correct :b

Do you have any tut on it, or what stuff i should use, i want to make my beardies viv better after seeing some that have been made, then need to make one suitable for a frilled lizard :3


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## ch4dg

x-istealbears said:


> I know you would easily know :b you're the guy that has done all the Jurassic park themed ones if I am correct :b
> 
> Do you have any tut on it, or what stuff i should use, i want to make my beardies viv better after seeing some that have been made, then need to make one suitable for a frilled lizard :3


click the links in my sig
hope that helps: victory:

any q's just pm me


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## AraCyanea

ch4dg said:


> click the links in my sig
> hope that helps: victory:
> 
> any q's just pm me


Just noticed them links :2thumb:

Will do thanks :no1:

Just to say, I think you should do an Alien basking spot :whistling2:


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## ch4dg

x-istealbears said:


> think you should do an Alien basking spot :whistling2:


thats next :2thumb:


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## AraCyanea

ch4dg said:


> thats next :2thumb:


I haven't a clue how you can do it so amazing, but you do, good luck with it :2thumb:

Not that you need it ... show off :whistling2:


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## ch4dg

you missed a few words out...



x-istealbears said:


> ''SHOWing your stuff OFF to others to give them ideas and insiration''


: victory:


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## AraCyanea

ch4dg said:


> you missed a few words out...
> 
> 
> 
> : victory:


Thanks for the correction :lol2:


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## john.r 1

i have been looking on ebay to buy the resin i need to do this but dont no which one to get as there are a lot of different types ? can you tell me , and which is the best grout to buy ?

if you could have a look on ebay and tell me the item numbers 

thanks


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## ch4dg

john.r 1 said:


> i have been looking on ebay to buy the resin i need to do this but dont no which one to get as there are a lot of different types ? can you tell me , and which is the best grout to buy ?
> s


is it resin or grout your after or both


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## john.r 1

ch4dg said:


> is it resin or grout your after or both



do you not need both ? grout first then the resin mixed with sand ?

i was gonna buy off ebay but there are so many different types


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## john.r 1

ch4dg

i have just been looking through all the builds you have done and there smart 
, and see that i only need unibond grout as thats ruff were do you buy yours ? b&q will they have the 1 that you use and whats the best brand of varnish /


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## ch4dg

john.r 1 said:


> ch4dg
> 
> i have just been looking through all the builds you have done and there smart
> , and see that i only need unibond grout as thats ruff were do you buy yours ? b&q will they have the 1 that you use and whats the best brand of varnish /



grout then paint then varnish

i use
UniBond Tile On Floors Waterproof Grout Standard Anthracite, 5010383063443

its tuff as hell, dries with a nice rocky effect and it does dry a nice grey colour, so no painting needed(maybe some white highlights for detail but thats it)


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## jaip1971

*old i know*

do you mix the sand with the resin, or cover the wet resin with sand?


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