# Licence?



## Camey® (Jul 19, 2009)

Hi do you need a licence to breed reptiles and sell the babies to reptile shops and private customers???
Thanks stu


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Camey® said:


> Hi do you need a licence to breed reptiles and sell the babies to reptile shops and private customers???
> Thanks stu


If you set out with the intention of breeding for profit (It sounds like you do) you will need a pet traders license, obtainable from your local council.


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## Camey® (Jul 19, 2009)

MJ75 said:


> If you set out with the intention of breeding for profit (It sounds like you do) you will need a pet traders license, obtainable from your local council.


Ive had a look at the local council and they do licences for Dangerous Wild Animals & Pet Shops which im neither so i dont know what to do!


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## MJ75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Camey® said:


> Ive had a look at the local council and they do licences for Dangerous Wild Animals & Pet Shops which im neither so i dont know what to do!


You don't have to have a shop (Retail premises) to need a pet traders license. People who sell fish and inverts via the internet etc still require them. Call them and they'll tell you what you need in order to trade legally.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

if you're a private breeder than no you don't. If you're breeding as a business then you probably will.


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## Bluejen (Jan 15, 2009)

Camey® said:


> Ive had a look at the local council and they do licences for Dangerous Wild Animals & Pet Shops which im neither so i dont know what to do!


the pet shop licence is the correct one you need (a stupid name that confuses everyone it really should be changed)


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Alslo if you have a pet shop license i believe you arent allowed to seel them at shows ?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

You do not need a PSL if you are only selling surplus animals which you have bred yourself.
If you needed a PSL to sell the results of your own breeding projects then there would not be many people doing it legally! It has nothing to do with profit really, as you are making a profit from selling your own CB young.

However, if you were buying animals from others and then selling them on yourself for a profit you would need a PSL.



> Alslo if you have a pet shop license i believe you arent allowed to seel them at shows ?


This is correct, it is because these events are deemed to be members events, to allow private hobbyists to sell surplus animals they have bred themselves.


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

ian14 said:


> You do not need a PSL if you are only selling surplus animals which you have bred yourself.
> If you needed a PSL to sell the results of your own breeding projects then there would not be many people doing it legally! It has nothing to do with profit really, as you are making a profit from selling your own CB young.
> 
> However, if you were buying animals from others and then selling them on yourself for a profit you would need a PSL.
> ...


Nicely covered :2thumb:


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

It seems it is different in parts of the country.......

According to my local environmentl health officer

If I breed reptiles and sell wholesale to pet shops and online sales only I do NOT need a PSL..

If 

I sell direct to members of the public then I DO need a PSL...


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

Who you sell to has nothing to do with it.
If you sell differnet species some local authorities request you get a PSL.
Personaly I only sell corns so don't fall in to that area.

It realy all come down to interpretation untill there is a court case to make a definate decision.

Under the pet act you do not need a PSL if you sell the young of the animal you own yourself but you do need one if you buy in with the intention of resale.

Stephen


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

madaboutreptiles said:


> It seems it is different in parts of the country.......
> 
> According to my local environmentl health officer
> 
> ...


It is the same throughout the UK, and is covered by an Act of Parliament, it is not down to individual councils to decide when you do and don't need a PSL.
You can sell your own CB animals any way you choose, online privately, to shops, and by placing adverts in local shops, papers, classified sites, etc. These people are all "members of the public" as they are not members of your family! If you were selling at a show, then again to all intents, you are still selling to the public.
What you can't do is turn your house into an "open house" to let strangers wander in and buy a reptile - this then effectively becomes a shop for which you would need consent from the council etc.


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## mikemike118 (Aug 15, 2009)

*sorry if im wrong but*

Im pretty sure that you can sell privately, but then if you was making it your 100% commitment and job, then you will have to claim this to H.M revenue, and you most likely need to have a licence for this, so as long as you sell privately and keep to a differant job, and do the extra selling for lil bit more money, then you should be fine!


as i said in the title, im very sorry if im wrong but i have been told this quite a few times on here


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

ian14 said:


> It is the same throughout the UK, and is covered by an Act of Parliament, it is not down to individual councils to decide when you do and don't need a PSL.
> You can sell your own CB animals any way you choose, online privately, to shops, and by placing adverts in local shops, papers, classified sites, etc. These people are all "members of the public" as they are not members of your family! If you were selling at a show, then again to all intents, you are still selling to the public.
> What you can't do is turn your house into an "open house" to let strangers wander in and buy a reptile - this then effectively becomes a shop for which you would need consent from the council etc.


Very well said. 

You do not need a PSL mate unles you are buying animals to sell on. It is perfectly legal to sell surples animals you have bread yourself. 

Jay


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

SnakeBreeder said:


> Who you sell to has nothing to do with it.
> If you sell differnet species some local authorities request you get a PSL.
> Personaly I only sell corns so don't fall in to that area.
> 
> ...


I agree its all down to interpretion...here is another example

I breed most of my own mice for food so I made enquireys about doing this professioanlly.

The environmental office for suffolk county council told me i needed a PSL even though I was not selling live animals only dead frozen mice?

Just go's to show you that even the environmental heath people (the governing body for licensing) dont have a clue


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

madaboutreptiles said:


> I agree its all down to interpretion...here is another example
> 
> I breed most of my own mice for food so I made enquireys about doing this professioanlly.
> 
> ...


Ah, I know where he is going with this one.
Commercial breeders premisis have to be inspected by the EHO on a regular babsis.
Some councils have opted to get breeders, who are not already covered by farming or dog breeding regulations, to apply for the PSL so they can enter the building when ever they like, to inspect it.
Not really what the PSL is designed for but a useful tool being used by some local authorities.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

ian14 said:


> It is the same throughout the UK, and is covered by an Act of Parliament, it is not down to individual councils to decide when you do and don't need a PSL.
> You can sell your own CB animals any way you choose, online privately, to shops, and by placing adverts in local shops, papers, classified sites, etc. These people are all "members of the public" as they are not members of your family! If you were selling at a show, then again to all intents, you are still selling to the public.
> What you can't do is turn your house into an "open house" to let strangers wander in and buy a reptile - this then effectively becomes a shop for which you would need consent from the council etc.


Very well put and entirety accurate. Things ‘may’ change in the future – who knows. BUT, at this moment in time you are comments are entirely in line with the law.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

SnakeBreeder said:


> Ah, I know where he is going with this one.
> Commercial breeders premisis have to be inspected by the EHO on a regular babsis.
> Some councils have opted to get breeders, who are not already covered by farming or dog breeding regulations, to apply for the PSL so they can enter the building when ever they like, to inspect it.
> Not really what the PSL is designed for but a useful tool being used by some local authorities.


At this moment in time, other than dog breeders, the law does not recognise ‘commercial breeders’, or indeed breeding of companion animals – this may change in time, but as we speak the Pet Animal Act 1951 is what counts and doesn’t cover commercial breeders, or indeed wholesalers. Any Local Authority which licences either act is acting _ultra vires_ [beyond the law]. This is not to say such activities shouldn’t be regulated by licensing, indeed I’m not unsupportive that they should, but what we have to all do is abided by what is the law, not what we may want it to me! The breeding of mice for food is not something government has actually considered.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> At this moment in time, other than dog breeders, the law does not recognise ‘commercial breeders’, or indeed breeding of companion animals – this may change in time, but as we speak the Pet Animal Act 1951 is what counts and doesn’t cover commercial breeders, or indeed wholesalers. Any Local Authority which licences either act is acting _ultra vires_ [beyond the law]. This is not to say such activities shouldn’t be regulated by licensing, indeed I’m not unsupportive that they should, but what we have to all do is abided by what is the law, not what we may want it to me! The breeding of mice for food is not something government has actually considered.


 
One thing that has to applied for is planning permission to use the premise for breeding either reptiles or mice (so I am told anyway?)

Maybe some one can clarify?


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

Very Interesting Chris.
I only had the details provided by my EHO over a period of visits.
Initialy I had asked about setting up a mouse breeding unit in my county and was told ‘commercial rodent breeders’ were not welcome in my area :devil:
Maybe the law does not recognise ‘commercial breeders’ but my EHO certainly does, or did then. :censor:
In the end I just gave up even though it would have suplied jobs for a few people and been a business I think I would have been good at.
I agree that regulation is not always a bad thing, but a level playing field, and informed players, would be an advantage.
Stephen


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## Herpquest (Jul 18, 2008)

For those of you who don't know who Chris Newman is, or doubt his opinion:

*Chris was the editor of the Reptilian magazine, the UK’s first specialist reptile & amphibian publication, from 1991 to 2003. He is currently the chairman of the Federation of British Herpetologists and the Federation of Companion Animal Societies. He is consultant to the Reptile and Exotic Pet Trade Association & advisor to the Pet Care Trust and National Association of Private Animals Keepers on herpetological (reptile & amphibian) issues, as well as a consultant to the fresh produce (fruit) industry on arachnological and herpetological pests. He has also acted in an advisory capacity for Customs and Excise, the police and Local Authorities. He has had numerous articles and papers published, both in journals and magazines, as well as authoring several books on the subject of reptiles. *


*His current work includes working to improve animal welfare and defending the rights for people to keep animals in captivity. Chris is a passionate advocate that both humans and animals benefit from animal husbandry and the keeping of animals as companions. He has always spoken out against the animal rights lobby, which is increasingly influential politically, sometimes at considerable personal risk. Pet keepers are now the regular target for animal rights activists and many so-called welfare groups are actively involved in anti-pet-keeping strategies.*


*Chris is directly involved with many governmental Working Groups and legislative reviews, such as the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, CITES, Non-native Species. He has been working extensively with the Animal welfare Act since its inception. Chris also works on a voluntary basis manning a 24 hr helpline for animal keepers. This encompasses a whole range of services and offers support and advice about a wide range of issues, from helping keepers who have problems with animal licencing, Local Authorities, RSPCA etc, to providing legal and emotional support. *

*Eric Davies*​


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

SnakeBreeder said:


> Very Interesting Chris.
> I only had the details provided by my EHO over a period of visits.
> Initialy I had asked about setting up a mouse breeding unit in my county and was told ‘commercial rodent breeders’ were not welcome in my area :devil:
> Maybe the law does not recognise ‘commercial breeders’ but my EHO certainly does, or did then. :censor:
> ...


 
I was told something very similar but by the planning office


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

SnakeBreeder said:


> Very Interesting Chris.
> I only had the details provided by my EHO over a period of visits.
> Initialy I had asked about setting up a mouse breeding unit in my county and was told ‘commercial rodent breeders’ were not welcome in my area :devil:
> Maybe the law does not recognise ‘commercial breeders’ but my EHO certainly does, or did then. :censor:
> ...


One of the problems with Local Government, i.e. local authorities is much of what they do is governed by ‘personal opinion’ – not what is government [parliaments] decree. In other words you may encounter EHO’s who simply don’t like the thought of lets say, a ‘commercial mouse breeders’ and use their position to say ‘no’. Well they can, and very often do impose such personal opinion. However, at the end of the day it is government to determine what you can and can’t do, not some jobs worth’s. ‘Jobs Worth’s’ are answerable to their superiors, be that within there Local Authority, i.e. the Chief Exec, Local Government Ombudsman, MP or ultimately the government its self. Never say never!


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## Snakesathome (Apr 25, 2009)

Ok, Im starting a breeding project for profit (Help with my Uni funds) and would I need a PSL? also, If I did get one would that enable me to get wholesale things online (Cheaper than paying loads in shops, Mice, substrate etc??)


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

No, as has already been explained if you are selling animals that you have bred yourself, you do NOT need a PSL, only if you are buying in from others and then selling on.
However, as you state this would be solely for profit you will need to disclose the financial gain to the Tax Office as this will be taxeable income.
If this is for commercial gain then you will also need planning permission for change of use, I am assuming you are doing this from home so the house will need permission to be used for business.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Snakesathome said:


> Ok, Im starting a breeding project for profit (Help with my Uni funds) and would I need a PSL? also, If I did get one would that enable me to get wholesale things online (Cheaper than paying loads in shops, Mice, substrate etc??)


 
how much are you planning to breed? unless you're breeding highend morphs or on a large scale; when you've taken out feeding, heating and housing costs you'll be left with very little - if any - profit.


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## Snakesathome (Apr 25, 2009)

Meko said:


> how much are you planning to breed? unless you're breeding highend morphs or on a large scale; when you've taken out feeding, heating and housing costs you'll be left with very little - if any - profit.


Hi-end it will be. Ill be breeding hi end pythons. so should be ok.


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## Snakesathome (Apr 25, 2009)

ian14 said:


> No, as has already been explained if you are selling animals that you have bred yourself, you do NOT need a PSL, only if you are buying in from others and then selling on.
> However, as you state this would be solely for profit you will need to disclose the financial gain to the Tax Office as this will be taxeable income.
> If this is for commercial gain then you will also need planning permission for change of use, I am assuming you are doing this from home so the house will need permission to be used for business.


Will be done at home in my shed. And ill be setting up a website for them too.

I will contact my council and see what they say.

Thanks


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> One of the problems with Local Government, i.e. local authorities is much of what they do is governed by ‘personal opinion’ – not what is government [parliaments] decree. In other words you may encounter EHO’s who simply don’t like the thought of lets say, a ‘commercial mouse breeders’ and use their position to say ‘no’. Well they can, and very often do impose such personal opinion. However, at the end of the day it is government to determine what you can and can’t do, not some jobs worth’s. ‘Jobs Worth’s’ are answerable to their superiors, be that within there Local Authority, i.e. the Chief Exec, Local Government Ombudsman, MP or ultimately the government its self. Never say never!


Thanks Chris.
I'll have to put my thinking cap on :whistling2:
Stephen


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

ian14 said:


> It is the same throughout the UK, and is covered by an Act of Parliament, it is not down to individual councils to decide when you do and don't need a PSL.
> You can sell your own CB animals any way you choose, online privately, to shops, and by placing adverts in local shops, papers, classified sites, etc. These people are all "members of the public" as they are not members of your family! If you were selling at a show, then again to all intents, you are still selling to the public.
> What you can't do is turn your house into an "open house" to let strangers wander in and buy a reptile - this then effectively becomes a shop for which you would need consent from the council etc.


So just to confirm, as long as it's only stock you've bred yourself and you only operate by appointment, you *don't* need a PSL? Does that apply to Wales as well? This is the impression I've got from when I spoke to my local council, but I'm just a bit shaken by what's happened to KK Chameleons over the last few days (see this thread: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/378472-kkchameleons-under-new-ownership.html) 

In particular this post - I've not heard back from Karen exactly what she means by it, but I assume the council have said something to her about more than 3 breeding pairs? http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/4723995-post66.html


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

HadesDragons said:


> So just to confirm, as long as it's only stock you've bred yourself and you only operate by appointment, you *don't* need a PSL? Does that apply to Wales as well? This is the impression I've got from when I spoke to my local council, but I'm just a bit shaken by what's happened to KK Chameleons over the last few days (see this thread: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/378472-kkchameleons-under-new-ownership.html)
> 
> In particular this post - I've not heard back from Karen exactly what she means by it, but I assume the council have said something to her about more than 3 breeding pairs? http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/4723995-post66.html


Keepers are permitted to dispose of surplus stock they breed themselves, there is no limitation on numbers you keep or breed. A Local Authority has no powers to determine how many animals you may keep, breed or dispose of by means of sale, other than dogs which are governed my an Act of Parliament.


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Keepers are permitted to dispose of surplus stock they breed themselves, there is no limitation on numbers you keep or breed. A Local Authority has no powers to determine how many animals you may keep, breed or dispose of by means of sale, other than dogs which are governed my an Act of Parliament.


Thats really good to know Chris, thanks


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