# i just read(what was ur first DWA?)



## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

hello everyone  
i didnt want to highjack that thread but i read that alot of people were mentored. . . 
i havent been in the hobby long, my partner and i do have many royal pythons 2 burmese pythons and a el salvador dwaft boa (because they are so cute) and have been looking into maybe getting either a green tree python or a green cat eyed snake.
when reading the thread about you guys and girls getting mentored i was like wow i want some of that :2thumb: (sorry got excited)
i love the look of some dwa snakes but cant imagine owning one but would love to be mentored / work with some so if any of you could give me an idea of where to get started that would be great !! cant offer much in return other than a thankyou but anything would be great : victory:
thanks for reading my essay . . .


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

I struggled for ages so went out and found some adders just to start... then thanks to a girl annoying a few keepers on here when I started a thread asking about possibly seeing some DWA rooms I was invited round a few places... those guys were/are brilliant and help me out whenever.

To get more experience however when in India I worked rescuing snakes in a city, then I went down to a rainforest & followed a King around for a month, ran into plenty of snakes there as-well. Ran into some in Borneo & Oz also so I got to handle a wide range of snakes. I am still in the process of getting a DWAL (I need to know whether I will have to move away for a NATS training course before I apply)

It can be really hard to find someone to mentor you but I think if you show your genuine & interested eventually something will come up.


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

thank you i didnt think it would be easy but i will do my best to show im serious and would like all to know that im a good listener and will do nothing other than what i am told if anyone can find it to give me a chance and it also gives them a chance to have a good session with there snakes im going to try keep on top of this thread to see if i can find someone who is willing to let me make my start by showing me one of there dwa rooms 
thanks again : victory:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Owzy said:


> I struggled for ages so went out and found some adders just to start....



and you have the cheek to call people trolls after that stupid post u deserve to get banned..... umm DEFRA>>>>:whistling2:


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## exoticsadmirer (Oct 22, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> and you have the cheek to call people trolls after that stupid post u deserve to get banned..... umm DEFRA>>>>:whistling2:


 What you can't go into the wild and handle an adder now-adays oh no!


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> and you have the cheek to call people trolls after that stupid post u deserve to get banned..... umm DEFRA>>>>:whistling2:


lol your a moron clearly!

I said found, when does that mean take genius!!! Many of the keepers in the UK have found them, they, like me take pictures then let go.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

2d text mate u know very well how that would be interpreted, if not pot calling kettle black.... pfft u want adder pics come to my garden welcome to the forest...... how about u say what u mean in the first place?


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> 2d text mate u know very well how that would be interpreted, if not pot calling kettle black.... pfft u want adder pics come to my garden welcome to the forest...... how about u say what u mean in the first place?


As described by the Princeton website

Found - come upon unexpectedly or after searching; "found art"; "the lost-and-found department"

Where in that definition, or any for the word for that matter, does it mention taking, or keeping? If I meant I went and found and took adders that is what I would have said.


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## Azemiops (May 1, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> 2d text mate u know very well how that would be interpreted, if not pot calling kettle black.... pfft u want adder pics come to my garden welcome to the forest...... how about u say what u mean in the first place?


Owen clearly stated in his post that he went out and found Adders. Nothing was mentioned about him taking them, so im pretty sure he said what he meant. And then you repsonded with a very unjustified and uneducated repsonse. You are also clearly not be aware that there is nothing illegal about taking Adders from the wild, so long as you have a current DWA licence. They are only protected from being injured, killed or sold.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> and you have the cheek to call people trolls after that stupid post u deserve to get banned..... umm DEFRA>>>>:whistling2:


what would defra do....no laws have been broken! i often find ALOT of adders in my wildlife garden which is open to the public....then again it is just that...a wildlife garden....nothing illegal about finding adder....keeping them with a DWA on the other hand ...


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

ok i might of well misinterpreted that but i still find it hard to see how telling the op to go find some adders for pics or to handle as a first introduction is valuable advise?


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> ok i might of well misinterpreted that but i still find it hard to see how telling the op to go find some adders for pics or to handle as a first introduction is valuable advise?


Again I don't want to be pedantic but I didn't tell them to go and find them, I just recounted my experiences.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

To the OP. Allow me to answer your query as best I can. Please forgive me if I seem overly critical, I mean no offence. I just want to leave you in no doubt of what is ahead of you if you want to pursue this route.
As a firm advocate of mentorship, allow me to explain what I mean by it. Being mentored is having pre-existing skills honed and improved upon. You would not be taught basic handling skills.
The first thing you would need to do is gain infinately more experience than it appears you have (my apologies if I'm wrong). From what I gather you currently own 2 burmese, 2 royals, and a boa. To put it simply, that's not enough. You need masses more experience handling a huge variety of non-venomous snakes before you could even consider asking someone to show you how to work with venomous species.
I started keeping reptiles at 7, and at 13 was lucky enough to get a saturday job in a reptile shop. I was only performing the most menial tasks, but it allowed me to gain experience with a larger number of species than I could have feasably kept at home. Obviously not everyone can be as fortunate as I was, but if you want to work with what you can't keep you'll have to be pro-active. Volunteer in shops or public displays, help out friends with large collections, etc. Just do whatever you can to broaden your skill set. To show venomous keepers you are serious, these are the type of steps you will have to take. Asking to see their collection out of the blue on a forum is not a good first step, and certainly not one that will be warmly received. I for one am very touchy about who gets to see my snakes and who doesn't. In most circumstances I would have to know someone personally before I would even consider it.
A friend of mine recently visited to see my collection and posted here concerning her experiences. Together with her partner they maintain a large collection of snakes and are certainly not new to aggressive species, but even they were shocked at the gulf that exists between venomous and non-venomous species in relation to day to day husbandry.
Her post is here:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/dwa-species/515371-whats-wrong-non-venomous-trainer.html

I'd suggest reading it carefully and, with all due respect, keep venomous snakes a distant pipe dream until you have done at least a little of what I suggest.
Good luck.
Dave


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

terciopelo_dave said:


> To the OP. Allow me to answer your query as best I can. Please forgive me if I seem overly critical, I mean no offence. I just want to leave you in no doubt of what is ahead of you if you want to pursue this route.
> As a firm advocate of mentorship, allow me to explain what I mean by it. Being mentored is having pre-existing skills honed and improved upon. You would not be taught basic handling skills.
> The first thing you would need to do is gain infinately more experience than it appears you have (my apologies if I'm wrong). From what I gather you currently own 2 burmese, 2 royals, and a boa. To put it simply, that's not enough. You need masses more experience handling a huge variety of non-venomous snakes before you could even consider asking someone to show you how to work with venomous species.
> I started keeping reptiles at 7, and at 13 was lucky enough to get a saturday job in a reptile shop. I was only performing the most menial tasks, but it allowed me to gain experience with a larger number of species than I could have feasably kept at home. Obviously not everyone can be as fortunate as I was, but if you want to work with what you can't keep you'll have to be pro-active. Volunteer in shops or public displays, help out friends with large collections, etc. Just do whatever you can to broaden your skill set. To show venomous keepers you are serious, these are the type of steps you will have to take. Asking to see their collection out of the blue on a forum is not a good first step, and certainly not one that will be warmly received. I for one am very touchy about who gets to see my snakes and who doesn't. In most circumstances I would have to know someone personally before I would even consider it.
> ...


I cant agree with Dave more, there is no preparation, it is like comparing shooting a spud gun to an ouzi.

People talk about red rats being the most unpredictable, maybe, but they won't leave you in intensive care. I have no desire to keep hots for the foreseeable but it seems like it is fast becoming the holy grail for any rep keeper that doesn't have room for a retic or the stregnth for an afrock.

WLW has posted here on numerous occasions and he (as far as I can tell :whistling2 is as competant and as skilled a keeper then most but yet strangley he does not keep front fanged snakes, is it a case he has not reached the pinacle of his keeping experience or is it just he doesn't feel the need to jump to the front of the queue?

My advice to anyone looking to keep hots is go the mentoring route, for 99% of you being in the presence of a truly deadly snake without 5mm of safety glass protecting you will make you change your mind : victory:


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## monkey26031985 (Mar 30, 2009)

i once wanted a *DWA i have kept snakes and lizards some nice some not so for 15 years had bad bites along the way i got bite from a burmese which was the biggest thing id been bite by and changed my mind i have seen people handle dwa snakes not as easy as it all sounds i have great respect for people who keep these snakes as they have 100% respect for there animals the advise you get take serious :notworthy:
*


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

terciopelo_dave said:


> To the OP. Allow me to answer your query as best I can. Please forgive me if I seem overly critical, I mean no offence. I just want to leave you in no doubt of what is ahead of you if you want to pursue this route.
> As a firm advocate of mentorship, allow me to explain what I mean by it. Being mentored is having pre-existing skills honed and improved upon. You would not be taught basic handling skills.
> The first thing you would need to do is gain infinately more experience than it appears you have (my apologies if I'm wrong). From what I gather you currently own 2 burmese, 2 royals, and a boa. To put it simply, that's not enough. You need masses more experience handling a huge variety of non-venomous snakes before you could even consider asking someone to show you how to work with venomous species.
> I started keeping reptiles at 7, and at 13 was lucky enough to get a saturday job in a reptile shop. I was only performing the most menial tasks, but it allowed me to gain experience with a larger number of species than I could have feasably kept at home. Obviously not everyone can be as fortunate as I was, but if you want to work with what you can't keep you'll have to be pro-active. Volunteer in shops or public displays, help out friends with large collections, etc. Just do whatever you can to broaden your skill set. To show venomous keepers you are serious, these are the type of steps you will have to take. Asking to see their collection out of the blue on a forum is not a good first step, and certainly not one that will be warmly received. I for one am very touchy about who gets to see my snakes and who doesn't. In most circumstances I would have to know someone personally before I would even consider it.
> ...


 hi dave thank you for the very well put answer. i didnt think me asking to see peoples dwa room would be something that everyone would have said "yea come round" lol as much as i wish they would. it was more just to get people to realise where i would like to get and that if i can prove myself to someone they already know what i want. im sorry i didnt write what experience i already have but just in brief . . . my partner and i are very passionate with all our animals and for a while now (i think 8or 9 months or so) have been volunteers in our local reptile shop where we have handled everything and anything that has come in. im not saying that they have had overly aggressive snakes, but im now the person that really handles most of the snakes ( the others do when there is time) i also clean, sweep, wash up so its not all great but have had experience with a few different types and still continue to go there as also during the saturday if the workers are busy and more customers come in we have learned all about the majority of the animals there and can give advise to almost any questions people have. 
sorry for going on so long and before work lol we are both very into our reptiles and i would like very much to go down this road albeit slowly ( maybe start just by watching others for a while) but we cant do it on our own. even if this post never gets us anywhere at least we tried. i also understand that you would like to know someone personally and not just letting dreamers see your collections, we would be slightly worried about that and we only own a few constrictors : victory:

o yea its 2 burmese, 3 royals lol 3 more coming and a green tree python (maybe) the little boa 
cheers for listening : victory:


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

paulds said:


> WLW has posted here on numerous occasions and he (as far as I can tell :whistling2 is as competant and as skilled a keeper then most but yet strangley he does not keep front fanged snakes, is it a case he has not reached the pinacle of his keeping experience or is it just he doesn't feel the need to jump to the front of the queue?


To be fair i don't think ive ever said that once. I think terry and tom charlton will also agree.


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## exoticsadmirer (Oct 22, 2009)

i do want to keep front fanged species at some point but to be honest the most agressive snake i own is a hatchling rat snake! so i think it'll be a long time before i'm even remotely ready to own one.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Dave has some very good advice and i agree with what he says.
The problem is, and Dave will back me up on this, we here this question a all the time, and the reality is very very few actually move into venomous for many reasons.
In many hobbys and persuits people dream of getting to what they perseave to be the pinicle. For instance i was in the army and wanted to join the SAS........or when i raced cars i wanted to go faster.......and when i was into match fishing i wanted to fish for England......all goals and i may or may not have achieved them, but the point is a lot of people who keep snakes would like to keep venomous...
But to reach this you need to make serious sacrifices and put a lot of time and effort and indeed cash in.
Also i believe its one of those things you can either can or cant do...i have seen very good snake handlers who have no problem handling nast retics and the like freeze and if there honest s:censor:t thereselves when it actually came down to dealing with the real deal. Its not something you can learn its something you have in you if you get my drift. for instance i always wanted to scuba dive and i learned in a swimming pool. i went into the sea off the African coast got into the water and saw all the big fish in the water and pood my pants and got out sharpish...mentally i dont have it in me...thats life.
The other thing people dont think of when saying "i want to get venomous" is IF something goes wrong and im lucky and end up in hospital for a while, who will pay the mortgage and bills etc also who will look after your snakes? And IF the worst happens what about your family?? These are some of the questions i ask people more than experience etc...its a big wake up call...do you really want them that bad??
But im going off topic a little...As for finding a mentor this can be a little difficult if you are looking at it right now, as you dont know anyone with a DWAL. But once you have been around the hobby a while and make friends with people and get to know people you will proberbly find somebody that keeps venomous and thats proberbly your best way in.
I live in the midlands and i have mentored in the past. I myself was lucky and mentored/trained by The best guy in the country but i fell into keeping them and never had any real urge to keep venomous but after becoming friends with the guy who mentored me i then realised this is what i wanted to do.
I hope you get to meet somebody to help you as doing it the right way is the only way.
Lee


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

leecb0 said:


> Dave has some very good advice and i agree with what he says.
> The problem is, and Dave will back me up on this, we here this question a all the time, and the reality is very very few actually move into venomous for many reasons.
> In many hobbys and persuits people dream of getting to what they perseave to be the pinicle. For instance i was in the army and wanted to join the SAS........or when i raced cars i wanted to go faster.......and when i was into match fishing i wanted to fish for England......all goals and i may or may not have achieved them, but the point is a lot of people who keep snakes would like to keep venomous...
> But to reach this you need to make serious sacrifices and put a lot of time and effort and indeed cash in.
> ...


i agree with you about everything you said and i can imagine lots of people cant do it and cant keep them. i dont actually see myself owning any of the dwa listed snakes but what i was trying to get to was i would love the chance to work / handle one i never expected to write this post and someone say "come over have a go" or tell me what snake is a good one to start with as there is no such thing and i respect that. this was more my first step on the ladder with the hope as many as you of finding/meeting someone that will get me on the second step which in turn will leed me to the third and so on and so forth. this post was really to give me ideas of how other people got into or got to handle their first which got you to start keeping them. im really into my snakes and so is my partner i dont think she wants to do this but its something i would like to one day maybe find out if i can do. thank you for your comments : victory:


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Here is a tip....get rid of the Bore pythons.....lol
get yourself some asian rat snakes this will give you a bit of a step up


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

leecb0 said:


> Here is a tip....get rid of the Bore pythons.....lol
> get yourself some asian rat snakes this will give you a bit of a step up


 lol you cheeky monkey we wouldnt get rid of our royals we didnt get them to pass them on :whip: lol 
and a rat snake would give me a step up are asian ones scary lol i will look into to it but i dont believe you. if i am wrong then sorry and thanks again for the advise.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

kerry and chris said:


> lol you cheeky monkey we wouldnt get rid of our royals we didnt get them to pass them on :whip: lol
> and a rat snake would give me a step up are asian ones scary lol i will look into to it but i dont believe you. if i am wrong then sorry and thanks again for the advise.


LOL 
I was being serious about the asian rat snakes....people will say that rear fangs are the best thing to get to get you into dwa...but i would be far more inclined to go for something like radiated rat snakes or my fav red tail ratsnakes its snakes like these whish will help you "READ" snakes. or at leas teach you to duck


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## rogersspider2007 (Apr 2, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> LOL
> I was being serious about the asian rat snakes....people will say that rear fangs are the best thing to get to get you into dwa...but i would be far more inclined to go for something like radiated rat snakes or my fav red tail ratsnakes its snakes like these whish will help you "READ" snakes. or at leas teach you to duck


:lol2:


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

leecb0 said:


> LOL
> I was being serious about the asian rat snakes....people will say that rear fangs are the best thing to get to get you into dwa...but i would be far more inclined to go for something like radiated rat snakes or my fav red tail ratsnakes its snakes like these whish will help you "READ" snakes. or at leas teach you to duck


 well in that case thank you and i can already duck my second burm was not very hand tame and had a couple of goes at me and i also tried to handle a un tame carpet about 5-6 foot and i must say i had a very good look at the inside of his mouth lol 

as for the rat snake im already interested so i will be keeping my eye out for any that crop up do they go under any other name (are they the asian beauty snake?) correct me if im wrong please and thank you again its nice to see that some people will give you advise when you ask:no1:


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

i can also see why some people wont give me the time of day as im sure im not the first hopeful and im sure i wont be the last lol im off for tonight.
hope you all have a good evening, take care guys 

thanks again : victory:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Hi Chris. Glad you found my post informative and didn't take it the wrong way. 
If you're already helping out in a shop and handling as much as possible then that's a good start. You should also use this as an opportunity to familiarise yourself with potential problems that can occur. In a well maintained private collection issues such as mouth rot, retained sheds, mites, and respiratory infections etc should be rare, if they happen at all. But in a shop with a high turnover of animals and customers seeking help then these problems can be comparatively common. It would therefore be of real use to you to try to aid in the treatment of these animals as often as possible. Then think how you'd have to adapt your technique if it was a venomous snake....
If you build a good raport with the customers you may also find that one or more keep DWA species. You never know. 
Also, what Lee said is bang on. Before going ahead with any venomous handling, give thorough consideration to the implications of a bite. Due care and attention can minimise risk, but it's never completely removed.
Dave


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

terciopelo_dave said:


> Hi Chris. Glad you found my post informative and didn't take it the wrong way.
> If you're already helping out in a shop and handling as much as possible then that's a good start. You should also use this as an opportunity to familiarise yourself with potential problems that can occur. In a well maintained private collection issues such as mouth rot, *retained sheds*, mites, and respiratory infections etc should be rare, if they happen at all. But in a shop with a high turnover of animals and customers seeking help then these problems can be comparatively common. It would therefore be of real use to you to try to aid in the treatment of these animals as often as possible. Then think how you'd have to adapt your technique if it was a venomous snake....
> If you build a good raport with the customers you may also find that one or more keep DWA species. You never know.
> Also, what Lee said is bang on. Before going ahead with any venomous handling, give thorough consideration to the implications of a bite. Due care and attention can minimise risk, but it's never completely removed.
> Dave


Unless you keep bloody Cobras


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## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

leecb0 said:


> Unless you keep bloody Cobras


 
What is this the third bad shed you have had with one of your Cobras recently Lee??

Is it the same snake or a different one each time?


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

No my Black and white is looking stunning now even if i do say so myself....check the photos on here.
But if your going to have a snake that sheds badly an needs a little assistance its always a cobra. Mine will shed perfectly three times then they just have a bad one even if you give them fresh water to bath in and spray them down...just one of those things. the moroccan is the only one i have never had a problem with......yet


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*DWA licence holding pomp and ceremony*

dear Kerry and Chris I'd like to say that your attitude seems first class to me in being able to handle DWA venomous snakes.

Only someone silly doesn't get quality training from experienced DWA licence holders first.

I am all for mentoring to us non-DWA licence holders. Personally I own a False Water Cobra, and IMO these are great training. 

Asian Rat Snakes are very fast too. King Cobras eat Ratsnakes for breakfast don't they? Fave meal evidently. Although I am certainly not wishing to upset the DWA licence holders, its just that I feel a "ganging up" is a little unfair...

Given space my FWC would likely dart away, and I reckon even a King Cobra would struggle to keep up.

Next up,. a Burmese is a SERIOUS snake. If a Ratsnake bit me I'd favour it over a Burmese or an FWC any day. 

Guys, what deterent is that?

The fact is even venomous handlers get bitten. The statistics seem rather universally conclusive of this.


I do give :no1:tremendous respect:no1: to all DWAvenomous licence holders. I really do, and its clear they love their snakes so I hope they're not upset with my comments.

My opinions are just that. Personal opinion.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

i see where your coming from Maffy but your wrong:Na_Na_Na_Na:

just kidding Honestly an asian rat snake like a red tailed rat snake will teach you more about handling using a hook than any FWC i have a seven foot female red tail and she is eveil as hell if you can hook and tail her without repeatedly getting tagged then your doing well. The reason i advocate them is they are great snakes for learning to read snakes, what they are doing and what they are going to do. a FWC are not the best for hook training in my opinion and can be a bit yampy and in truth act nothing like the majority of venomous snakes. if you are looking to learn good hook technique a nast rat snake is far better. and before you say anything i was keeping and breeding FWC in the early 90 and have had them for nearly 20 years my last one i moved on a few months ago


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

kerry and chris said:


> well in that case thank you and i can already duck my second burm was not very hand tame and had a couple of goes at me and i also tried to handle a un tame carpet about 5-6 foot and i must say i had a very good look at the inside of his mouth lol


go offence but a strike from a python...even the larger speices is nothing in comparison.

Lee is correct is what he said about ditching the boids to some degree...dont get rid of your snakes...but dont stay in the same mind set that your in....yes a fully grown aggressive burm can be a dangerous and even life threating animal..however just because you can do one doesnt mean you can do the other.

Its abit like me saying that because i can play the guitar i sound be able to play the sax.....completely different....the strike of a burm is slow and sluggish...it uses its slow movement along with weight and constriction to kill its prey so i no real reason to be fast and edgy...


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

maffy said:


> dear Kerry and Chris I'd like to say that your attitude seems first class to me in being able to handle DWA venomous snakes.
> 
> Only someone silly doesn't get quality training from experienced DWA licence holders first.
> 
> ...



majority of my FWC's prefer to hug me than bite me....


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Hi Maffy, no your opinions don't upset me, but allow me to answer them.
I personally do not recommend any non-venomous snake as a trainer species for venomous, because nothing comes close. But non-venomous snakes can provide valuable handling experience that can be modifed for purpose. 
Asian ratsnakes, particularly red tails, are often recommended because they can be fast and aggressive and rarely sit well on a hook. It has nothing to do with severity of bite. Yes a burmese will inflict a nastier wound than a ratsnake, but the point is to start training to avoid the bite, and practicing your hook techniques with an adult burmese is an exercise in futility. 
Some people suggest using false water cobras but I still don't think they will prepare you for, if you'll excuse the term, "proper" venomous snakes.
Yes they are venomous, yes they can produce severe symptoms, but when compared to most DWA listed species they do have a _comparatively _mild venom, and people know this. The handler may know of many stories of severe bite symptoms, but in the back of their mind they know they'll shake it off, so you're never in the "I could die" frame of mind. Plus I am yet to see a falsie that can even come close to the speed, agility, and confidence of an elapid cobra. They're quite literally worlds apart.
And with regard to you thinking we were "ganging up" on anybody, we weren't. We're simply all throwing suggestions their way to ensure they are aware of the steps needed if they wish to venture into venomous snake keeping / handling. It's not a case off putting someone off with scare mongering. We're simply answering the question that was asked. You're right in saying that they have the correct attitude, in as much as they asked how to go about doing things without jumping in head first, but to suggest our responses were unfair is misguided. No offence but you've utterly missed the point. We're merely trying to detail what is necessary, and if it appears harsh it's because we aren't willing to sugar coat what is a very serious under taking.
Dave


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2010)

Sorry I am am high jacking the thread a little.

I have read the thread and the one that was linked to earlier and I have to say from what i have read the dwa and non dwa snaked are like chalk and cheese in comparison and you really need to know your stuff and reading how the snake is going to react and think. You guys who keep them which I understand why because they are wonderful animals which you have a passion for, but still you are heads above the rest in just terms of balls LOL.

I love my reptiles and I have a few old world T's but hots do take that bit of extra which has been pointed out, it takes that special talent that can't be taught in most cases.

BTW any one who would let me have a look at their hot room I would make sure my promise would be that i was 110% serious I wanted to go in that direction. OP if do go the dwa route all the best but please make sure you find the right person or people for you to get you the experiance if you decide thats what you really want.

Last thing you dwa guys to do take my hat off to you it takes years of experiance and a heap load of skill to do what you do, I will never be in to snakes as they do really scare me what they are able to do.


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

wildlifewarrior said:


> To be fair i don't think ive ever said that once. I think terry and tom charlton will also agree.


Hey bud, wasn't quoting you just didn't think you kept DWA listed?

Appologies if my comment was incorrect or awkward, I love ya always have.: victory:


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

thanks again to everyone that has been commenting i will try to remember all main points of what i just read but if i miss some im sorry. first off i was never comparing a burm to a dwa ive only been in the presents of one dwa which is the gaboon viper which compared to some dwa is ment to be abit more placid than others (but still dont under estimate it) and from seeing him feed you just know they are worlds apart.

the bit about being ganged up on thanks for trying to help but really these people are just telling me straight and i respect them for that.

when/if i do meet someone that will show me their dwa room before i even walk into the room i know i will have to trust that person with me life its not something to mess around with and if i cant trust that person (cus i think they shouldnt be around dwa snake i will walk away in hope i find someone that i can trust 

and leecb0 and dave big thanks as your not sugar coating anything which is not what i need as im am serious about this but wont venture into it until i think everything is ready: victory:


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*experience*



leecb0 said:


> i see where your coming from Maffy but your wrong:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> just kidding Honestly an asian rat snake like a red tailed rat snake will teach you more about handling using a hook than any FWC i have a seven foot female red tail and she is eveil as hell if you can hook and tail her without repeatedly getting tagged then your doing well. The reason i advocate them is they are great snakes for learning to read snakes, what they are doing and what they are going to do. a FWC are not the best for hook training in my opinion and can be a bit yampy and in truth act nothing like the majority of venomous snakes. if you are looking to learn good hook technique a nast rat snake is far better. and before you say anything i was keeping and breeding FWC in the early 90 and have had them for nearly 20 years my last one i moved on a few months ago


Asian Ratsnakes may prepare someone for a viper... that stands its ground and digs its heels in.

What about Cobras and Mambas? Wouldn't Boiga sp., or certain Whip Snake sp.'s or perhaps Malpolon sp. (Montpelliers) be worthwhile considerations?

Hooked snakes. Isn't that a bit cumbersome and potentially dangerous?

With reptile tongs I'd hook pretty much any venomous snake that is out there aside from Mamba, mainly because I wouldn't attempt it in the first place.

:lol2:


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

maffy said:


> Asian Ratsnakes may prepare someone for a viper... that stands its ground and digs its heels in.
> i take it you have never dealt with a yampy redtail? proberbly as close as you will get to dealing with mambas in my opinion, dont forget they are an arborial snake that are fast and very willing to strike. But still no substitute for the real thing.
> 
> What about Cobras and Mambas? Wouldn't Boiga sp., or certain Whip Snake sp.'s or perhaps Malpolon sp. (Montpelliers) be worthwhile considerations?
> ...


This is why training with somebody who knows what they are doing, and learning correct handling techniques will keep you safe and most importantly stop you causing halm to the snake


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

maffy said:


> Asian Ratsnakes may prepare someone for a viper... that stands its ground and digs its heels in.
> 
> What about Cobras and Mambas? Wouldn't Boiga sp., or certain Whip Snake sp.'s or perhaps Malpolon sp. (Montpelliers) be worthwhile considerations?
> 
> ...


boiga?

you mean the "before i bite you i will puff, then hiss then i will gap, then i will inflate myself then i will do a clumsy strike" 

whip snakes are soft a muck aswell...i meanm yes they do strike and they have pretty dam big teeth, however as soon as you tail them they begin to cork screw on you and they then do the wirlewind effect on you where they spin out of control....you deffo need tyo know how to handle them correctly so you dont damage them but hell know can they be even compared to anything that your refering to.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

maffy said:


> Asian Ratsnakes may prepare someone for a viper... that stands its ground and digs its heels in.


No offence mate but now you're just being silly. Vipers and Ratsnakes couldn't be more different, in everything from behaviour to physiology.
Ratsnakes should never be considered suitable training for venomous snakes. They're suitable training for hooking technique, which can then be modified for venomous snakes. There's a big difference.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

This is the point Dave. What people are not getting is its about learning the techniques and gaining the skills and confidense, and not really about substituting a venomous snake for a similar acting non venomous.
for example when you learn to ride a bike you learn the fundamentals of ballance speed breaking steering....once you have honed your techniques and become competant at this level you can then perhaps move on to riding a motorbike which although far more dangerous and differant in many areas, a lot of the elemants you learn as a bike rider you use to ride a motorcycle. What we are saying you need to learn the basics in anything you do as they are the building blocks for what you may do in the future


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*my point*



wildlifewarrior said:


> boiga?
> 
> you mean the "before i bite you i will puff, then hiss then i will gap, then i will inflate myself then i will do a clumsy strike"
> 
> whip snakes are soft a muck aswell...i meanm yes they do strike and they have pretty dam big teeth, however as soon as you tail them they begin to cork screw on you and they then do the wirlewind effect on you where they spin out of control....you deffo need tyo know how to handle them correctly so you dont damage them but hell know can they be even compared to anything that your refering to.


Dave, your comments are certainly accepted. Big teeth are quite a good deterrent though.

And someone had admitted that Ratsnakes are not like Vipers at all.

People have to start with something. And owning snakes of any kind begins the journey of experience.

Basic husbandry etc. I knew nothing about snakes in real terms until I owned them.

I still maintain that using snake tongs is much safer than hooking, by far. Sometimes I can't hook my FWC as it rapidly slides away.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

maffy said:


> I still maintain that using snake tongs is much safer than hooking, by far. Sometimes I can't hook my FWC as it rapidly slides away.


They're only safer if you can't hook properly, and even then not by much. You can still get into a mess real quick when using a grab if the rest of your skills aren't up to scratch. What happens if the snake coils the shaft of the grab? Plus, unless you are quite skilled with their use AND using the right style, then they can be very damaging to the snake. Broken ribs, broken back, organ damage, etc.
And with regard to your FWC, it sounds like you're doing it wrong. You don't just lift the snake and expect it to sit on the hook. With a snake like a falsie you'll have to hook and tail or double hook. This is a prime example of why correct hook technique should be learned BEFORE you get anything venomous, and in that I include FWCs.


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## jasper1 (Apr 15, 2007)

maffy said:


> Asian Ratsnakes may prepare someone for a viper... that stands its ground and digs its heels in.
> 
> What about Cobras and Mambas? Wouldn't Boiga sp., or certain Whip Snake sp.'s or perhaps* Malpolon sp. (Montpelliers) be worthwhile considerations?*
> 
> ...


All _Malpolon Sp_ are classed as DWA


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## exoticsadmirer (Oct 22, 2009)

i've just got a make shift hook for my hatchling FWC and black ratsnake because they're both quick and quite frankly the black rat isn't that fond of me atm and using a hook is harder than i thought it would be!


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I think Dave and other will agree that you need to be more skilled with tongs than with a hook its so easy to damage a snake with tongs. I know of a black and whight spitting cobra that has a broken back due to poor handling with tongs, and the person in question is a reasonably experienced keeper, and the tongs he did the damage with were Midwest Gentle giant tongs which are proberbly the safest of the lot.
I dont want to judge anyones handling skills without witnessing it but you really dont need to use tongs an FWC at all...ever


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> I think Dave and other will agree that you need to be more skilled with tongs than with a hook its so easy to damage a snake with tongs. I know of a black and whight spitting cobra that has a broken back due to poor handling with tongs, and the person in question is a reasonably experienced keeper, and the tongs he did the damage with were Midwest Gentle giant tongs which are proberbly the safest of the lot.
> I dont want to judge anyones handling skills without witnessing it but you really dont need to use tongs an FWC at all...ever


Lets be fair mate....hooking a FWC isnt excalty hard....infact there very good on a hook, perhaps too good.
If a person cant manage to use a hook efficiently with a FWC then either they need to re-access there current collection OR learn correct hook techniques.










easy peasy to hook out a FWC....and ive got a good few of them...of which non are overally friendly...however getting used to a FWC on a hook isnt very good as they do rather well on a hook to be honest....


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

I was trying to be diplomatic........can tell your French:whistling2::lol2:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> I think Dave and other will agree that you need to be more skilled with tongs than with a hook its so easy to damage a snake with tongs. I know of a black and whight spitting cobra that has a broken back due to poor handling with tongs, and the person in question is a reasonably experienced keeper, and the tongs he did the damage with were Midwest Gentle giant tongs which are proberbly the safest of the lot.
> I dont want to judge anyones handling skills without witnessing it but you really dont need to use tongs an FWC at all...ever


Agreed mate. Tongs aren't the easy way out people think they are, and reliance on them just highlights failings in handling technique.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

wildlifewarrior said:


> Lets be fair mate....hooking a FWC isnt excalty hard....infact there very good on a hook, perhaps too good.
> If a person cant manage to use a hook efficiently with a FWC then either they need to re-access there current collection OR learn correct hook techniques.
> 
> image
> ...


True mate. I've never had a falsie that was awkward to hook and tail. Never tried making a big one just sit on a hook, but all the youngsters I tried it with seemed relatively at ease with it.
To be honest I hate hearing people suggest FWCs as training for elapids. They're not remotely similar. I reckon if they didn't hood and didn't have "cobra" in their name then no one would give them a mention in the same sentence as DWA.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

ok from now on i vote we call them by there proper name
Brazillian smooth snake....or Boipevassu if you will:whistling2:


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*tong twister*



terciopelo_dave said:


> They're only safer if you can't hook properly, and even then not by much. You can still get into a mess real quick when using a grab if the rest of your skills aren't up to scratch. What happens if the snake coils the shaft of the grab? Plus, unless you are quite skilled with their use AND using the right style, then they can be very damaging to the snake. Broken ribs, broken back, organ damage, etc.
> And with regard to your FWC, it sounds like you're doing it wrong. You don't just lift the snake and expect it to sit on the hook. With a snake like a falsie you'll have to hook and tail or double hook. This is a prime example of why correct hook technique should be learned BEFORE you get anything venomous, and in that I include FWCs.


yes Dave I totally agree with this about careful tong technique. Correct handling of the snake.

PS I don't own tongs. My FWC hooks very well (admitted) and the other method i use to handle my FWC is very much my own :lol2:.
PPS My apologies - I stand corrected on Montpelliers, didn't check they were DWA. Actually I kinda forgot this.

PPPS lol2 excellent hook technique is very important too. I know where abouts my FWC is etc.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> ok from now on i vote we call them by there proper name
> Brazillian smooth snake....or Boipevassu if you will:whistling2:


Seconded. Motion carried.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

leecb0 said:


> I was trying to be diplomatic........can tell your French:whistling2::lol2:


i dont beat around the bush



terciopelo_dave said:


> True mate. I've never had a falsie that was awkward to hook and tail. Never tried making a big one just sit on a hook, but all the youngsters I tried it with seemed relatively at ease with it.
> To be honest I hate hearing people suggest FWCs as training for elapids. They're not remotely similar. I reckon if they didn't hood and didn't have "cobra" in their name then no one would give them a mention in the same sentence as DWA.


its the same for all rear fangs really....they just want to be loved thats all.....


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Get a room!


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*preference*



terciopelo_dave said:


> Seconded. Motion carried.


I do like this name for it also. But lets be honest FWC does suit the snake rather well all things considered. Hood and water.

We don't call a Florida Waterbanded Snake - American Keeled Snake
or the WDB - a rough Diamond, do we?

How about the "slightly rough with a smooth underside" snake :lol2:
Sorry, I'm being silly and facetious - but then again Brazil isn't its only inhabited range.


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## kerry and chris (Nov 9, 2009)

lol thanks for high jacking but i must admit its really great to see how passionate you all are about your animals its reminds me of me and my partner of how we are with ours.

love the text book picture of the false water cobra and as for the name lol its only a name who cares what it is called anyone that knows about it knows it cant be compared to the dwa snakes hense why its not on the list.

as for trying to kiss what i think was a rear fanged snake (correct me if im wrong) but never mind getting punch that would give you a fat lip! lol 

i have recently found there is a course you can do for dwa snakes that is a week long and cost about 500 pounds so i will be looking into this (more as a christmas present from the missis lol and maybe the next few birthdays aswell) so things are looking up for me on the dwa side of things.

as for the on going talks about everything that has been said on this thread i hope it carries on as it is nice to see how you lot feel about comparing snakes ( mainly that it cant be done ) and that there is no such thing of a good starter snake and the way that your trying to get to once you can handle all sorts of snakes with confidence and without making silly mistakes then and only then is it worth going on to these beautiful snakes. although even then go and get yourself a good mentor to show you the ropes.

thanks so far to everyones opinions : victory:


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## LemmyElvis (Sep 5, 2010)

leecb0 said:


> Dave has some very good advice and i agree with what he says.
> The problem is, and Dave will back me up on this, we here this question a all the time, and the reality is very very few actually move into venomous for many reasons.
> In many hobbys and persuits people dream of getting to what they perseave to be the pinicle. For instance i was in the army and wanted to join the SAS........or when i raced cars i wanted to go faster.......and when i was into match fishing i wanted to fish for England......all goals and i may or may not have achieved them, but the point is a lot of people who keep snakes would like to keep venomous...
> But to reach this you need to make serious sacrifices and put a lot of time and effort and indeed cash in.
> ...


Hi,
Look I know nothing about DWAL but reading this it just struck me that it must have implications for your life and probably house insurance too....
Mike


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## Kalouda (Sep 1, 2010)

My first DWA was a wolf dog when they were listed...totally dif to venomous snakes. The wolf dog was bred quite well and the one I had would still be DWA as there was 50/50. Don't have DWAL anymore but will do. Don't feel venomous is up my street but I admire the keepers, I truely hope you can find some help and maybe one day get to see some dwa snakes and down the line see what else can happen.


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