# Thinking about IBD and..



## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Do people have some sort of alchahol cleaner that they use? like you get in hospitals? For use in between handling their snakes?

Where do you get it and is it ok to use on your hands and then handle herps with?

Cheers,

Scott.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

well some of the commercially available hand soaps can kill birdflu so I expect a decent antibactereal soap would be good enough thats what I use


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

Your best bet is common sense! Washing your hands in between handling each rep, before, and after, just like you would when you go to eat anything.

There are a few commercially available hand sanitizing gels available, i'll have a look to see what I can find for you.....


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

To be honest I've only ever used soap.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

I use asdas own brand (special offer atm, half price :d) but it will ahve no effect on IBD.

IBD can be transmitted through the air and is infectious at as little as 3 parts per million(citation needed). 

If the animals are in the same room, then one infection means they all have it!

Although the clensers will probably kill any hand-held bacteria.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

Vetasept is a hand rub. SImply apply after handling.

Faunology :: Herp Equipment :: Hygiene :: Vetasept Hand Rub 500ml


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

i have a handwash that dosnt require water to wash ur hands its from asda too is that what u mean dan?!! but i never use it before handling i use normal soap for that!


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

F10, really really good stuff and safe too, used by loads of vets and vetinary surgeons:no1:



> A total spectrum disinfectant, it is highly effective against avian diseases including Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease and Psittacosis, killing all types of bacteria, viruses, fungi and spores.


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks for the quick replies! and yes i do wash my hands with soap before handling etc etc but i thoguht it would be much easier to just use that alchahol stuff which doesnt need water you just pump it onto your hands in between handling and its meant to be pretty strong for killing bacteria etc. just wondered if it was available anywhere?

The F10 stuff sounds good though!! Know where ican get it?

Thanks again for the fast replies!:no1:


Scott


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Yeah, its called "dry wash anti-bacterial hand gel" its a 50ml squirt bottle, usually 98p now 48p!

Good stuff with a built in moistureiser. 

The other one i use is "cuticura" anti-bac hand gel...Same thing but no oistureiser, and smells like cuecumber and vodka!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> I use asdas own brand (special offer atm, half price :d) but it will ahve no effect on IBD.
> 
> IBD can be transmitted through the air and is infectious at as little as 3 parts per million(citation needed).
> 
> ...


 
see I heard that it can only be passed on through touching one then another or snakes body fluids somehow touching if for example you clean out two water bowls without washing your hands


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Oooh soudns good to me! Very cheap too :lol2: Where do you buy it from??

Aslong as my snakes dont lie kthe taste of cucumber and vodka i'll be fine :no1:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

VdubS said:


> Thanks for the quick replies! and yes i do wash my hands with soap before handling etc etc but i thoguht it would be much easier to just use that alchahol stuff which doesnt need water you just pump it onto your hands in between handling and its meant to be pretty strong for killing bacteria etc. just wondered if it was available anywhere?
> 
> The F10 stuff sounds good though!! Know where ican get it?
> 
> ...


i get it from my local reptile shop, but you can order it directly

Meadow's Animal Healthcare Online Shop

this is whats written on the bottle




> Effective against gram positive and gram negative bacteria, fungi, yeasts and moulds and most viruses


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks for the link mate i will have a look through in the morning!:no1:


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> Yeah, its called "dry wash anti-bacterial hand gel" its a 50ml squirt bottle, usually 98p now 48p!
> 
> Good stuff with a built in moistureiser.


yea and it smells nice tooo :no1:


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Where do you get it from though:?:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Kellogscornsnake! said:


> yea and it smells nice tooo :no1:


 
:lol2:, i love the smell of hibiscrub:lol2:


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

you cant tease me like this lol where do you get it from...? :lol2:

Hibi isnt that a plant?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

VdubS said:


> you cant tease me like this lol where do you get it from...? :lol2:
> 
> Hibi isnt that a plant?


get what from?


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> :lol2:, i love the smell of hibiscrub:lol2:



You are trying too wind me up arent you!!:-o lol

But yeah where do you get the hibiscrub from that costs 99p or what ever..


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

VdubS said:


> You are trying too wind me up arent you!!:-o lol
> 
> But yeah where do you get the hibiscrub from that costs 99p or what ever..


 
no, hibiscrubs alot dearer than that, i think they use(or use to use) in hospitals, again ive seen it in reptile shops but i think you can possibly get it from chemists too


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Ok then mate, thanks. I will have to have a look around tommorow or something see if ican get hold of anything.. is there any ingredients that i should look out for to keep away from that you know of?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

im not totally sure, antibacterials can be a mine field thats why ive only ever used hibiscrub and f10


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Yeah Hibiscrub sounds kinda natural to me!? Will keep you informed tommorow thoguh if i find anything!:no1:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

The ASDA one comes from Asda, funnily enough! The cuticura one is avalable in there too. 

Hibiscrub, (incedentally the soap i use before and after handling, gel is between) is avalable from chemists and is about £3.50 for a 750ml bottle. 

Put it in a dispencer mind because it is runny from the bottle lol

It currently is used in hospitals, dentists and vets, and is used to clean wounds and operating sites...

Very good stuff.


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

lol alot of messed up patients/alki's/recovering alki's in hospitals have been caught drinking the hibiscrub!! :lol2:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Aye but it has no al-ka-ma-hole! lol


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## SuperTed (Apr 19, 2007)

i suppose it smells good enough for them to drink!! :lol2:


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> The ASDA one comes from Asda, funnily enough! The cuticura one is avalable in there too.
> 
> Hibiscrub, (incedentally the soap i use before and after handling, gel is between) is avalable from chemists and is about £3.50 for a 750ml bottle.
> 
> ...


yeah and it smellys lovely:lol2:


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## VdubS (Jul 15, 2007)

Ohh sorry lol i didnt see you had put it was from Asda!! Will try and go visit it soon and pick some up! Got to clean the snakes out today!! Funn.........: victory:


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## Azazel777 (Mar 18, 2007)

captaincaveman said:


> F10, really really good stuff and safe too, used by loads of vets and vetinary surgeons:no1:


f10 is great and they have loads of products good for infections. wounds, etc. if i had noticed they also had a super concentrated cleansing formula i would have bought it instead of the vetark i just bought...oh well another time



darkdan99 said:


> Yeah, its called "dry wash anti-bacterial hand gel" its a 50ml squirt bottle, usually 98p now 48p!
> 
> Good stuff with a built in moistureiser.
> 
> The other one i use is "cuticura" anti-bac hand gel...Same thing but no oistureiser, and smells like cuecumber and vodka!


i use the original cuticura and it seems to work the trick. i was worried about the fragrance but it doesnt seem to have any ill effects. i bought my cuticura stuff at boots and it was on sale...bargain:no1:


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## Razaiel (Oct 17, 2006)

SiUK said:


> see I heard that it can only be passed on through touching one then another or snakes body fluids somehow touching if for example you clean out two water bowls without washing your hands


I had heard that too on a BP-specific forum - I wonder which it is...


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

The most common, and easiest transer is through any boily fluid (including saliva, and natural oil on scales, with the more obvious), it can also be contracted via breathing in infected air, although there is a much harder chance. 

If there are only a few parts per million, in a closed system (the room they are both in) then chances are it can be transfered. 

It can also be transfered by both snakes touching clothing, floors, or a table, waterbowls, or possibly even feeding tweesers (if 2 snakes touch them)

A few quotes to back up my statement...
[QUOTE="anapsid.org]
As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed).​[/QUOTE](such as the fluid released in breat, a sneeze or even flattus.)


[url=http://reptileexpert.co.uk said:


> Buying, Owning and Caring for Reptiles at reptileexpert.co.uk[/url]]Transmissions through airborne aerosolised secretions


The likelyhood of infection is much greater through physical (direct or indirect) contact, but there is still a risk housing them in a closed space. 

There is also an argument that in "high exchange" areas (such as shops, shows or breeders) that their can be a constant amount in the air. In studys a few (literally single figuers, as low as 3 quoted) parts per million can be enough for a snake to contract the virus. 

If that low figure is correct, then srly there is a change that an infected snake living "up wind" of a healthy one could pass the virus on. Think how easily we catch a cold...

It is my Theory that many snakes posess the virus (due to inevatable exposure) but it takes a certain amount of infected cells to create an infection and beat the snakes immunity. 

This is based on the fact that snakes can be isolated from other animals for sevral years, without showing symptoms, but after a breif and minor alement (RI, MR, SR etc) they can then "contract" IBD.


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## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

Purell Hand Sanitizer

This is the stuff the NHS use to stop the spread of MRSA.


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## Razaiel (Oct 17, 2006)

Thank you, Dan - that is very informative. It sounds like psittacosis in parrots - it can lie dormant for many years and then some stress can bring it out. I wonder if, like parrots, boas that have it lying dormant can pass it on only when they are in the stressed condition (i.e. if the boa has it in them but does not actively have the symptoms) or if they can pass it on at any time? In pythons we know that it is invariably fatal and the snake will die within 3 months of becoming contaminated. I have 2 pythons sharing a room with a boa (2 years old and no sign of anything). I have also heard (via an American forum) that some of the large breeders purposely have pythons in with their boas (same room not same enclosure) so they know quicker if there is a case of IBD with a new arrival.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

It is only my theory, RE the "all snakes have an amount, and the cirtical weight, if you will", but it is long established fact that boas can carry for huge amounts of time. 

One case study i read showed that one boa was isolated for 2.5 years, before showing symptoms.

It could of course have been contraceted from the air, an infected food item or even the owner shaking hands with another owner-they isnsisted they haddent met any other owners...so it seems likely that the specimin was indeed carying and had the virus laying dormant.

In my opinion both pythons and boas can carry for a long amount of time, and then an element of stress, or weakened immunity leads to an infection. This increased count then gets into the air, and because of the huge amounts other animals become infected. 

I was reading a while ago, about snakes actually possesing white blood cells (anti bodies) that can combat IBD, yet when the animal becomes infected they have no defence. Are these cells actually able to combat the virus, are they a mutation in a single animal...

Also the inclusion bodies, these babies are difficult to explain. Why and how are they there. 

Another of my theories on the subject puts forward that the virus actually "eats" part of the cell, taking vital nutriants etc, and leaves some "grey matter", which is the inclusion body. The cell immediatly fights this off and encloses it. 

Both of these theorys make sence to read, but it must be said that i have done no testing on the subject, and am by no means an expert (in anything) but these are "educated opinions"...belive them at ur own risk..


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

Most IBD infections have spread when mite's have been present, apparently. Last I read there was no evidence to suggest that IBD could be passed through air born particles, but it wasn't ruled out as a possibility. I have also read that once the virus has left the host, the lifetime of its existance is short lived.... (damn i wish i had a photographic memory, i believe i have that correct, but might be wrong)

Edited: Either way, we have our boa downstairs out of the way, so our royals have less chance of anything bad happening, and i'm in no way saying that the spread of the disease cant be passed through air....


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

You are correct Jonny, in that the most likely spread is through snake mites, one speices in particular is an excellent carrier (will post which later, cant remember). 

IBD from what i have researched (probably all thats online tbh) is spread via any bodily fluid. This includes blood, saliva and air expelled during exhalation. 

Obviously the chances are higher with physical contact, or transfusion of fluids but i firmly belive that it is transferable through the air etc.

TBH there is little to worry about when buying CB animals in this country if they are quarentined properly, but if the animals are WC or are from a questionable sorce then obviosuly the risk is heightened. 

If proper quarentine is used, and all animals sourced from reputable sellers then the risk is mineute...


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## royalpython (Nov 16, 2006)

It probably is airborn transferable then.. no doubt this disease just wants to be the most annoying one ever, so it has to  lol.

Yeah, good point about CB animals in the UK.


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## Razaiel (Oct 17, 2006)

Glad all mine are CB then. Well they're all 2 years old and a bit so hopefully everything's fine. Great discussion.


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