# non feeding hots.



## Matt_Baitson (Nov 13, 2011)

I've litrally just woke up thinking about this.

If I have a non feeder I assist/force feed. Do you with hots do the same and if so, how? Or is it a no go area?

Matt


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## _emmie_x_ (Aug 7, 2010)

_Hiya,_

_Some keepers might pin the snake and then force/assist feed like you would a non-venomous snake, I'd imagine? but obviously keeping a firm enough hold so the snake cannot bite you but at the same time make sure you are not hurting the snake_

_Others might use a snake restraining tube or a pinkie press_

_But the most important thing with any non-feeding snake or animal is to find out why that animal isn't eating, with hatchling snakes it maybe that the prey item is to big so they may need something smaller_

_I don't keep DWAA animals so I might be totally wrong :blush:_

_regards, emmie x_


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2011)

Matt_Baitson said:


> I've litrally just woke up thinking about this.
> 
> If I have a non feeder I assist/force feed. Do you with hots do the same and if so, how? Or is it a no go area?
> 
> Matt


 
I think viper keeper has a video on how to do it on his youtube channel


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## Amy2310 (Feb 28, 2011)

Venomous snake restraint: Assist feeding

I don't know how accurate that link is, but the image I've seen done before elsewhere, seems like the most logical way to do an assist feed.


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

Here are some good examples. The second video scared the hell out of me. lol

Force feeding an Eastern Brown Snake - YouTube

King Cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) assist feeding at KRZ - YouTube


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

coldestblood said:


> Here are some good examples. The second video scared the hell out of me. lol
> 
> Force feeding an Eastern Brown Snake - YouTube
> 
> King Cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) assist feeding at KRZ - YouTube


It's tiny! imagine having to assist feed a fully grown O.Hannah :gasp: lol.


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

nsn89 said:


> It's tiny! imagine having to assist feed a fully grown O.Hannah :gasp: lol.


Not something I'd try. I had force feed a mangrove for a while, and that wasn't something I enjoyed doing. Shame I never had one of those tubes at the time. Would have made life much easier.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

coldestblood said:


> Not something I'd try. I had force feed a mangrove for a while, and that wasn't something I enjoyed doing. Shame I never had one of those tubes at the time. Would have made life much easier.


I think it's relatively normal for people that keep hot's to have to assist feed hatchlings isn't it? From what i gather anyway, obviously some hatchlings are perfectly fine, but i've seen a lot of videos of assist feeding young hots.


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

nsn89 said:


> I think it's relatively normal for people that keep hot's to have to assist feed hatchlings isn't it? From what i gather anyway, obviously some hatchlings are perfectly fine, but i've seen a lot of videos of assist feeding young hots.


I'm not sure if it's 'normal' for a DWA keeper to assist feed, but I know many do. I've helped assist feed hots a few times, but never done it myself.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

coldestblood said:


> I'm not sure if it's 'normal' for a DWA keeper to assist feed, but I know many do. I've helped assist feed hots a few times, but never done it myself.


No, no, what i meant by normal was just the fact it's not a rare occurrence.: victory:


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## _emmie_x_ (Aug 7, 2010)

Amy2310 said:


> image
> 
> Venomous snake restraint: Assist feeding
> 
> I don't know how accurate that link is, but the image I've seen done before elsewhere, seems like the most logical way to do an assist feed.


_I don't like restrain tube feeding because in my opinion it isn't the best for the snake because of the added stress by the owner to try to get the snake in to the tube, it is just safer for the owner to do_

_Obviously the more stress the snake has to go through the longer it may not feed_


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

_emmie_x_ said:


> _I don't like restrain tube feeding because in my opinion it isn't the best for the snake because of the added stress by the owner to try to get the snake in to the tube, it is just safer for the owner to do_
> 
> _Obviously the more stress the snake has to go through the longer it may not feed_



Well it's more for safety when dealing with hots. Some people may use them, some people not. But that is a Bitis Gabonica lol.


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## _emmie_x_ (Aug 7, 2010)

nsn89 said:


> *Well it's more for safety when dealing with hots.* Some people may use them, some people not. But that is a Bitis Gabonica lol.


_I know I said that,_
_But its not the best method for the snake in my opinion and shouldn't the owner be using the best method for the snake? but at the same time be keeping themselves safe..._

_But I don't really agree with force/assist feeding which is why I don't really do it to my own snakes_

_It doesn't really matter what species of DWAA snake it is, each one has the potential to kill you..._


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

_emmie_x_ said:


> _I know I said that,_
> _But its not the best method for the snake in my opinion and shouldn't the owner be using the best method for the snake? but at the same time be keeping themselves safe..._
> 
> _But I don't really agree with force/assist feeding which is why I don't really do it to my own snakes_
> ...


Indeed, not sure what other method's are "safe" for the keeper though.


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## _emmie_x_ (Aug 7, 2010)

nsn89 said:


> Indeed, not sure what other method's are "safe" for the keeper though.


_When ever you deal with venomous snakes or any animal for that matter you are still putting yourself at risk from being hurt in one way or another its only the persons skills, experience, common sense and knowledge that keeps them out of harms way or helps them get out of a sticky situation or to prevent one_

_My first reply about the pinning method, although still stressful for the snake and more risky for the owner it is most likely the best method for the snake? __I don't know..._


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

_emmie_x_ said:


> *When ever you deal with venomous snakes or any animal for that matter you are still putting yourself at risk from being hurt in one way or another its only the persons skills, experience, common sense and knowledge that keeps them out of harms way or helps them get out of a sticky situation or to prevent one*
> 
> _My first reply about the pinning method, although still stressful for the snake and more risky for the owner it is most likely the best method for the snake? __I don't know..._


I know, you don't need to tell me.

Well it depends on the keeper doesn't it with how much risk they want to take. Would be good to hear some of their methods. 

Black squamigera princess baby feeding - YouTube

Like this guy has his own method's........................


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## Razorscale (Feb 22, 2010)

I keep venomous snakes, i pin i tube, depending on how difficult the animal is being, if the animal will simple not take it and will not bite down, i pin and put it into is mouth, If the animal wants to bite, i will tube it and push the food item down let the animal bite it and then push gradually until its into the mouth and unable to come up (easier said than done)

And that video is horrific in my eyes, what happens if the snake starts pushing against things around it and wiggling like most snakes do, i bet that guy has being tagged before many a time. His feeding method of holding the animal with food in its mouth is simply foolish and should never be done if you have a good head on your shoulders.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Razorscale said:


> I keep venomous snakes, i pin i tube, depending on how difficult the animal is being, if the animal will simple not take it and will not bite down, i pin and put it into is mouth, If the animal wants to bite, i will tube it and push the food item down let the animal bite it and then push gradually until its into the mouth and unable to come up (easier said than done)
> 
> And that video is horrific in my eyes, what happens if the snake starts pushing against things around it and wiggling like most snakes do, i bet that guy has being tagged before many a time. His feeding method of holding the animal with food in its mouth is simply foolish and should never be done if you have a good head on your shoulders.


Tell me about it all his videos seem to be of the same nature. 

Do you have to assist feed on a regular basis? Or does it usually only need to be done with young snakes?


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

We are currently assist feeding a southern copperhead (Agkistrodon contortix contortix) Purchased in hamm sept of this year. 2 females were bought and one took FT straight away. the other is more finnicky. We assist it like you would any non venomous snake. the only real difference is that you have to use tools to pin it and then hold your grip to stay out the way of the stabby bits. this presents a couple of problems, firstly.... you need to hold the snake firmly enough that it cannot bite you... yet loose enough that prey can pass freely. it takes some doing i can tell you. thats why it takes 2 fully grown men to assist feed a 6in snake.

We also have a lake Nakuru puff adder that is a tricky feeder. It will not feed unless it has first struck the pinky. and it simply wont do it unless you pin it. nice to think i have a calm puffy, but like any hot, dont trust it as far as you can throw it. It seems strange that it will eat once the prey is envenomated. I understand that the scent of the prey if it were LIVE would change slightly, and that live rodents often leave a telltale trail of urine for the hunter to follow. If a similar thing happens with FT i can't say. but it has worked.

First Hot i ever had was an Eyelash viper (Bothriecchis schlegelli) and it was tiny. lmade a hognose baby look like a blood python. came to me as a non feeder, i gave it 3 feeds with pinky limbs and after that it was a strike feeder. but let me tell you.... them fangs are mobile as hell. second time i assist i came very close to getting bitten when i took my eye off the stabby bits for a moment. Not a mistake i will make again. in my eyes a near miss is as bad as a bite. and we all know that baby hots really mean it when they get you.

Hope this helps?

Dave.


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## Razorscale (Feb 22, 2010)

nsn89 said:


> Tell me about it all his videos seem to be of the same nature.
> 
> Do you have to assist feed on a regular basis? Or does it usually only need to be done with young snakes?


I use to have to do it weekly, it was a juvenile snake, it quick came around to its sences and started eating by itself.
A friend of mine bred white lips and he had to assit feed every one of them every few days, he used a sponge to hold the animal in place when feeding, brilliant idea, as if the snake bit the sponge it would help release venom incase the animal managed to slit his finger or so, but he was always really carefull.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks! 

Why do you think that hots have to be assist fed more often that normal snakes?

I guess it would be for certain hot snakes eating small mammals isn't their normal diet? Like with some species small geckos would be their staple in the wild. So is it just a case of them not realising it's prey? Or are they just generally more finicky..


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

nsn89 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Why do you think that hots have to be assist fed more often that normal snakes?
> 
> I guess it would be for certain hot snakes eating small mammals isn't their normal diet? Like with some species small geckos would be their staple in the wild. So is it just a case of them not realising it's prey? Or are they just generally more finicky..


Certainly a high percentage come from europe. and have been live fed from day one. i have no doubt any of mine would take live. trouble is. if the snake isnt interested, and the mouse has a go back. you then have to deal with it. and it's all about minimising the risk. sticking a live mouse in... is a risk.
I'm cool with other people doing it, just i choose not too.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Moshpitviper said:


> Certainly a high percentage come from europe. and have been live fed from day one. i have no doubt any of mine would take live. trouble is. if the snake isnt interested, and the mouse has a go back. you then have to deal with it. and it's all about minimising the risk. sticking a live mouse in... is a risk.
> I'm cool with other people doing it, just i choose not too.


Yeah I wouldn't be able to take that risk either. 

I'm quite sure I've read before that certain vipers when hatchlings are particularly hard to get feeding. 

Is just how they would be in the wild also? Or is it because of my previous point earlier about them not being offered their usual instinctive food source?


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

nsn89 said:


> Yeah I wouldn't be able to take that risk either.
> 
> I'm quite sure I've read before that certain vipers when hatchlings are particularly hard to get feeding.
> 
> Is just how they would be in the wild also? Or is it because of my previous point earlier about them not being offered their usual instinctive food source?


You have to remember that Herpetology is a relatively new field of study compared to many others. If those in the academic part of our world can't make up their minds as to the correct taxonomic name of a species. then how are we to know Anything about them? nobody as a rule wanders round following the same snake to observe feeding habits. especially of neonates. Most field work is pot luck, you simply document the behaviours you see at the time. now Herpetoculture, the bracket into which you and i fit, is different. the rule is..... 'it'll probably eat defrost, eventually'. which as a rule is pretty much spot on. and our hobby is still trial and error. I have a very good friend with some Boelens pythons which are thriving since he moved them from a rodent diet to a bird diet. but at some point, some poor sod had to lose a Boelens or two to learn that a rodent diet is simply not good for this species. Many species that are specific lizard feeders can be converted to defrost, most however die rather quickly from fatty liver deposits.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Moshpitviper said:


> You have to remember that Herpetology is a relatively new field of study compared to many others. If those in the academic part of our world can't make up their minds as to the correct taxonomic name of a species. then how are we to know Anything about them? nobody as a rule wanders round following the same snake to observe feeding habits. especially of neonates. Most field work is pot luck, you simply document the behaviours you see at the time. now Herpetoculture, the bracket into which you and i fit, is different. the rule is..... 'it'll probably eat defrost, eventually'. which as a rule is pretty much spot on. and our hobby is still trial and error. I have a very good friend with some Boelens pythons which are thriving since he moved them from a rodent diet to a bird diet. but at some point, some poor sod had to lose a Boelens or two to learn that a rodent diet is simply not good for this species. Many species that are specific lizard feeders can be converted to defrost, most however die rather quickly from fatty liver deposits.


Cheers Dave.


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## SuperSpeedyWheels (Jun 23, 2011)

coldestblood said:


> Here are some good examples. The second video scared the hell out of me. lol
> 
> Force feeding an Eastern Brown Snake - YouTube
> 
> King Cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) assist feeding at KRZ - YouTube


Yea.. the way it comes out looking around like wheres my dinner?? ... 
'you, your my dinner' 
:lol2:
I wouldnt fancy assist feeding anything fully grown.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I force fed T.albolabris for about 6 months, I found that gently pinning her between two towels was best, and when she was bigger I found it was easier to pin behind the head.


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