# questions fire and ice bearded dragon what do you wont to know??



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

this is a post so i can try and answer any questions about fire and ice

i hope this will stop hijacking of other posts

you will have to bear with me as my typing is a bit slow

or you can call me on 01244382780

cheers mark pickstock F&I uk rep

ok be gentle :whistling2:


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## jimjam1977 (Apr 30, 2009)

hi

i bought 2 fire & ice dragons from the living rainforest about 6 months ago... they are about a year old now... ( i don't know if they are related as i bought them on 2 different occasions...yes i made the 100+ mile trip twice!) :whistling2:
i got certificates stating they are 5th & 6th generation .... i'm intending to breed from these in the future... if they do, and have babies what do i do for a certificates as people will definately want to see them.. do i just show them the ones i have or do i have to print some? sorry if this sounds abit silly but just wanted to know 

thanks : victory:


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

jimjam1977 said:


> hi
> 
> i bought 2 fire & ice dragons from the living rainforest about 6 months ago... they are about a year old now... ( i don't know if they are related as i bought them on 2 different occasions...yes i made the 100+ mile trip twice!) :whistling2:
> i got certificates stating they are 5th & 6th generation .... i'm intending to breed from these in the future... if they do, and have babies what do i do for a certificates as people will definately want to see them.. do i just show them the ones i have or do i have to print some? sorry if this sounds abit silly but just wanted to know
> ...


yeah show people yours if they want to see them.
do your own birth certificates as i do and many others


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## jimjam1977 (Apr 30, 2009)

thank you :notworthy:


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> this is a post so i can try and answer any questions about fire and ice
> 
> i hope this will stop hijacking of other posts
> 
> ...


hi

you make it sound that if people dont buy from you or terry they dont own a F&I dragon?
theres alot of people all over the world breeding F&I so people can own a F&I dragon from other people


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## stevenw (Feb 28, 2009)

no what he says is that terri will only confirm his are 100% pure in this country because she knows first hand that no other lines are bred into the f&i lineage ..ie someone buys a F&I and later buys another Dragon and breeds these they are not pure .. I think thats correct

so because terri does not know first hand that the lineage has not been broken unless they are bought from the above thread starter 

please confirm


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*terri may not confirm the offspring being pure but mark and terri have to confirm the pure ones which were originally purchased.

i do agree somewhat though as it does sound like everyone else's will be inferior in my opinion this is the way it comes across.*


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## stevenw (Feb 28, 2009)

oh yeah its bound to though he sells em !


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

jimjam1977 said:


> hi
> 
> i bought 2 fire & ice dragons from the living rainforest about 6 months ago... they are about a year old now... ( i don't know if they are related as i bought them on 2 different occasions...yes i made the 100+ mile trip twice!) :whistling2:
> i got certificates stating they are 5th & 6th generation .... i'm intending to breed from these in the future... if they do, and have babies what do i do for a certificates as people will definately want to see them.. do i just show them the ones i have or do i have to print some? sorry if this sounds abit silly but just wanted to know
> ...


hi there

if you wont to show your paperwork then fine??
it should have pics of the pairing?? [but some dont]
you would sell them as 6th or 7th gen fire and ice
its down to you if you give paperwork


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> hi
> 
> you make it sound that if people dont buy from you or terry they dont own a F&I dragon?
> theres alot of people all over the world breeding F&I so people can own a F&I dragon from other people


ok you should know this answer but ill try again

no ive never seid that

if you wont a gauranteed fire and ice dragon then you need to buy them from fire and ice

there are other breeders yes
but we cant gaurantee there pure fire and ice dragons
other lines could of been crossed in???
its up to you to make that call
you need to do your home work, confirm what thay have got then 
buy one or not


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stevenw said:


> no what he says is that terri will only confirm his are 100% pure in this country because she knows first hand that no other lines are bred into the f&i lineage ..ie someone buys a F&I and later buys another Dragon and breeds these they are not pure .. I think thats correct
> 
> so because terri does not know first hand that the lineage has not been broken unless they are bought from the above thread starter
> 
> please confirm


yep you have got it:2thumb:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *terri may not confirm the offspring being pure but mark and terri have to confirm the pure ones which were originally purchased.*
> 
> *i do agree somewhat though as it does sound like everyone else's will be inferior in my opinion this is the way it comes across.*


i have the imports over the last few years
plus all ive sold
i can confirm all these,, this would be the first step most people would take 

im sorry if what ive seid sounds like im making other dragons sound inferior
there not inferior we just cant guarantee there pure


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*Right, We are excited to be receiving our dragons from Terri in September and as you know we are going to breed them.


However, to be perfectly honest with all the wobblies thrown over this pure and paperwork malarky, I am starting to regret it a bit.

I will not be impressed when I sell my 1st gen babies if someone hijacks my for sale thread ( and this has been happening a lot of late) and throws a fit at me over this whole business.


But I am still getting them and find Terri to be lovely. She breeds outstanding dragons and I will be breeding them and selling the offspring next year so we shall see what happens next year.

Amy*


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## stevenw (Feb 28, 2009)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *Right, We are excited to be receiving our dragons from Terri in September and as you know we are going to breed them.*
> 
> 
> *However, to be perfectly honest with all the wobblies thrown over this pure and paperwork malarky, I am starting to regret it a bit.*
> ...


if they are both F&I then you will have paperwork which you can state hence no one needs to jump on thread .. you can then provide your own certs with pic of parents on .. you have the proof no prob can sell as F&I
however terri prob would not conf babies as F&I only the parents ... because she has an agreement in place with mark that he breeds pure F&I babies hence she will conf all his stock ...

if you cross bread F&I you sell them as 50% f&I ...simple


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stevenw said:


> oh yeah its bound to though he sells em !


we are trying to keep our good name 
we dont force any one to buy our dragons

the thing is you go to buy what you think is a pure fire and ice dragons
pay hundreds of pounds and when you breed them, the babys are normals with i bit of colour,,as ive seen,, then you wont be happy
all we are trying to do is make shaw[ as best we can ]is you get what you pay for
untill i started the paperwork thing no one ever asked for paperwork
so it sounds like people are wiseing up to scammers and doing there home work, this can only be a good thing

we are protecting our dragons as well as everyone elses


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*I do know all this, I didn't go into this blind at all. Too much money to be silly.

*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *Right, We are excited to be receiving our dragons from Terri in September and as you know we are going to breed them.*
> 
> 
> *However, to be perfectly honest with all the wobblies thrown over this pure and paperwork malarky, I am starting to regret it a bit.*
> ...


by then i hope its all sorted out to

but if not this is what this thread is for ,, just send them here


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stevenw said:


> if they are both F&I then you will have paperwork which you can state hence no one needs to jump on thread .. you can then provide your own certs with pic of parents on .. you have the proof no prob can sell as F&I
> however terri prob would not conf babies as F&I only the parents ... because she has an agreement in place with mark that he breeds pure F&I babies hence she will conf all his stock ...
> 
> if you cross bread F&I you sell them as 50% f&I ...simple


 
spot on thanks


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *I do know all this, I didn't go into this blind at all. Too much money to be silly.*


i totaly agree there not cheep
but im doing all this so it should be easyer for you to sell them 
and easy for you to prove what you have got

new things take time people will get the idea ???


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi. We have a few fire and ice now. We will breed them next year and will be selling them and i couldnt give a monkies about the paperwork argument. I have paperwork from fire and ice and paperwork from fire and ice uk for all of mine so if anyone want confirmation it can be got very easily and confirmed. if everyone did the same then there would be no questions about where they come from. Our dragons will be fire and ice bred to fire and ice but like mark said, anyone could breed a fire and ice with one thats not f & i and advertise them as pure, this is why they say they cant guarantee that they are pure if someone else has done it.

The way we are going to do it is to do our own certs. Both parents can be confirmed if need be and there is no arguing anywhere. Seems pretty simple to me


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## sam gamgee (Apr 8, 2009)

Hi Mark!

OH poss looking for a female, pref citrus (I think) and adult/sub adult, not necessarily for breeding (our lives are busy enough..) but not ruling poss out! currently we have an adult (18 months) hypo tangerine (super colour, clear nails). She also likes reds....and others!!

Anything available/know of any for sale?


Dave.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> Hi. We have a few fire and ice now. We will breed them next year and will be selling them and i couldnt give a monkies about the paperwork argument. I have paperwork from fire and ice and paperwork from fire and ice uk for all of mine so if anyone want confirmation it can be got very easily and confirmed. if everyone did the same then there would be no questions about where they come from. Our dragons will be fire and ice bred to fire and ice but like mark said, anyone could breed a fire and ice with one thats not f & i and advertise them as pure, this is why they say they cant guarantee that they are pure if someone else has done it.
> 
> The way we are going to do it is to do our own certs. Both parents can be confirmed if need be and there is no arguing anywhere. Seems pretty simple to me


yep that sounds right
you know what your going to do
there should be no problem with that


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

sam gamgee said:


> Hi Mark!
> 
> OH poss looking for a female, pref citrus (I think) and adult/sub adult, not necessarily for breeding (our lives are busy enough..) but not ruling poss out! currently we have an adult (18 months) hypo tangerine (super colour, clear nails). She also likes reds....and others!!
> 
> ...


sorry sold out will have babys in sept

its very hard to get an older F&I

but thay do come up for sale some times???

if you dont get one then call me in sept

cheers m


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

We had a look at our collection and we would like a collector or top quality male mark. If you can hold me one till I come to collect the other that would be great. I trust you to sort me a top dragon out, LOL. We are after a tangerine or citrus, got a couple of reds already but it all depends on what you have bred.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> We had a look at our collection and we would like a collector or top quality male mark. If you can hold me one till I come to collect the other that would be great. I trust you to sort me a top dragon out, LOL. We are after a tangerine or citrus, got a couple of reds already but it all depends on what you have bred.


no problem

we can sort it out in sept


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## steve_3125 (May 20, 2009)

Something for me to mark please! :2thumb: :lol2:

Steve


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

not trying to start another argument but on another f&i thread i see this was put

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nottingham Dragons*  
_I know they have fire and ice but i think its a weak bloodline, they are fire and ice but quite a high generation. I dont know as i have never been but so i heard. I thought he had the paperwork for them though_

(woodrott)
no hes right gav

i called him and he told me he gets them from his whole saler

and he seid paperwork is bull s :censor:it and as we know no papers

not F&I *and on the other post you also said*

she is sending a few in a batch of dragons from all over the usa

not just from F&I thay will have no paperwork

*so who is right lol 

so from what i read is terri can sell them without paperwork so does that not mean they are not f&i ??????

you have to agree this is so confusing and this is why people are starting to get knarcked over the whole situation.

it seems to me that these ones terri is selling without paperwork anyone can buy including coldblooded in essex but basically if terri does not sell them with paperwork then they are not f&i ???????

confusing or what !!!!!!!!! i think i could do with some from terri without the paperwork maybe they would be cheaper ??? lol !!!*


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*also someone else pointed out to me that terri should state on her website that they should have paperwork !!!*

*i think this would also be a good idea*


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Sounds to me like you just like arguing, LOL


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> Sounds to me like you just like arguing, LOL


*
how am i arguing when mark opened this thread for this reason ???????

me thinks you may have the wrong end of the stick sunny jim*


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

My names gav so I'm not sure who that jim is at the end of your stick but it's not me, LOL. :2thumb:


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> My names gav so I'm not sure who that jim is at the end of your stick but it's not me, LOL. :2thumb:


*Alrighty then* :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Are you collecting yours in September? What did you get?


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> Are you collecting yours in September? What did you get?



*yes in sept we have 3 holdbacks 1 male 2 females*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> not trying to start another argument but on another f&i thread i see this was put
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nottingham Dragons*
> ...


the ones that are going to hamm are in a mixed boxs with a hundred or so other dragons .terri isnt selling them under the F&I name some breeder has purchased some from her to sell there 

now if theres paperwork with dragons at hamm its up to you??
do you trust the seller or not???
again this is up to you ,as it is in the uk 

now with coldblooded its the same if theres no paperwork then we wont confirm that there from F&I breeding stock

at the end of the day all we are trying to do is stop people getting ripped off a. paper trail helps to stop this and if you have paperwork you will have no problem selling yours wich you will

what happens in hamm or uk or usa is the same if theres no paperwork its your call

the paper trail helps you to trace the dragon back to us F&I and that helps to confirm what you are buying , there will allways be a few lost in the system if paperwork gets lost, its down to the breeders to keep there paperwork in order

hope this helps


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*That makes it a little less confusing, thanks.*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *also someone else pointed out to me that terri should state on her website that they should have paperwork !!!*
> 
> *i think this would also be a good idea*


all terris dragons come with paperwork in the usa too

but people dont sell there babys as pure fire and ice , most buy them to make there stock brighter, or to help in there breeding program, its mostly only over here where theres a problem with scammers


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

steve_3125 said:


> Something for me to mark please! :2thumb: :lol2:
> 
> Steve


sorted:2thumb:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *how am i arguing when mark opened this thread for this reason ???????*
> 
> *me thinks you may have the wrong end of the stick sunny jim*


this tread should help you guys sell your dragons??????

and keep out the scammers

i under stand new things some time take a bit to understand and thats what this thread is all about

but i do understand gav too


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*i do understand what you are trying to do mark but and it is a big but in all seriousness it is not that hard to prove the paperwork.

all it takes is one ( scammer ) to buy one and then he in theory could sell all baby's as fire and ice i mean how easy is it to forge a passport these days ??? they seem to do it everyday.

you can only make so many people aware of the paperwork issue millions of people who do not use rfuk are non the wiser.

like i said before i am not trying to make arguments.

in theory it is only a piece of paper which can be copied by anyone.

not everyone is going to come running asking if they were brought from you or imported by you from terri. as they would be none the wiser if they dont use rfuk hence what i said earlier maybe terri should post something on her website.

as said before we are eagerly awaiting our dragons from terri and cant wait to recieve them in september.
and we are not just in this for argument sake as said earlier
im sure everyone will appreciate what i and others are saying afterall our order and everyone else's is costing a small fortune.

if i sound out of term i apologise but i speak my mind *


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *i do understand what you are trying to do mark but and it is a big but in all seriousness it is not that hard to prove the paperwork.*
> 
> *all it takes is one ( scammer ) to buy one and then he in theory could sell all baby's as fire and ice i mean how easy is it to forge a passport these days ??? they seem to do it everyday.*
> 
> ...


yes your right rfuk is just a small part of the bearded dragon breeders

im on other web sites too

you have to start some where??

it must be working look at this thread 

its only been posted about half a day

ive my fingers in a lot of pots

mostly any where if some one uses the F&I name i find out about it 

we have all ready had a word with a few breeders 

a letter mostly sorts it out and thay stop

this fourm is,nt the only place we try and police our name


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> Hi. We have a few fire and ice now. We will breed them next year and will be selling them and i couldnt give a monkies about the paperwork argument. I have paperwork from fire and ice and paperwork from fire and ice uk for all of mine so if anyone want confirmation it can be got very easily and confirmed. if everyone did the same then there would be no questions about where they come from. Our dragons will be fire and ice bred to fire and ice but like mark said, anyone could breed a fire and ice with one thats not f & i and advertise them as pure, this is why they say they cant guarantee that they are pure if someone else has done it.
> 
> The way we are going to do it is to do our own certs. Both parents can be confirmed if need be and there is no arguing anywhere. Seems pretty simple to me


you say you have F&I paperwork for all your dragons?
this is not the case as you dont?
i know of at least 1 dragon you got with no paperwork to say F&I as the buyer wasnt given any?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> you say you have F&I paperwork for all your dragons?
> this is not the case as you dont?
> i know of at least 1 dragon you got with no paperwork to say F&I as the buyer wasnt given any?


phil are you shaw its a pure one???

the 50% ones i had last time some people didnt wont paperwork

unless ive misted one all the pure got paperwork


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> phil are you shaw its a pure one???
> 
> the 50% ones i had last time some people didnt wont paperwork
> 
> unless ive misted one all the pure got paperwork



the seller told him it was a F&I dragon but they didnt have paperwork as wasnt given any and he brought the dragon.
so therefore all his dragons do not have F&I paperwork which he as stated :whistling2:


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

we might have our first scammer here :lol2:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> the seller told him it was a F&I dragon but they didnt have paperwork as wasnt given any and he brought the dragon.
> so therefore all his dragons do not have F&I paperwork which he as stated :whistling2:


was it one from me?????

was it one from some other breeder????


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> was it one from me?????
> 
> was it one from some other breeder????


sure it came from you


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> sure it came from you


so if we have the name of the buyer i can check my paperwork????

there was one or two people that didnt have paperwork

thay just wonted a pet, thay didnt wont to breed with it . 

these dragons would be classed as lost

it will happen

paperwork will get lost

as far as i new gav has all the paperwork from my dragons


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

You wanna get your facts straight phil before throwing accusations round. The dragon you are refering to is kept by me as a pet. Nowhere have I said she will be bred with as she is too small. So paperwork is irelivent. We have paperwork for all our fire and ice dragons and I don't think it's for you to be going telling people otherwise. 

What's got into you over the last few weeks?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> You wanna get your facts straight phil before throwing accusations round. The dragon you are refering to is kept by me as a pet. Nowhere have I said she will be bred with as she is too small. So paperwork is irelivent. We have paperwork for all our fire and ice dragons and I don't think it's for you to be going telling people otherwise.
> 
> What's got into you over the last few weeks?


there we go sorted, hope this clears it up

gav seems to be a genuine guy hes got a good name on here

so far this thread seems to be going fine???

most people seem fine with what thay are finding out

so lets carry on and please keep it clean


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Define 'pure' in this context.

regards,

Andy


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Define 'pure' in this context.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Andy


hi andy

i know where your going with this one

well here we go



no 1 if you wont F&I to gaurantee its pure, then from me or terri 

no 2 its the only way we can gaurantee 100% as we did the pairing and 
reared the babys

no 3 there are other breeders who breed our dragons
but we cant gaurantee them being 100%, but we can confirm thay 
have had dragons from us

no 4 just because we cant gaurantee there 100% F&I pure
this dosnt meen there not

no 5 at the end of the day its up to the buyer to do there home work
then pick there breeder


now your question

we can only gaurantee ours[ only ours ]this is why we sell hundreds
as people wont the gaurantee on paper


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I actually mean something much simpler than that, what does 'pure fire and ice' mean, is it simply that they have bred it?

Andy


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I actually mean something much simpler than that, what does 'pure fire and ice' mean, is it simply that they have bred it?
> 
> Andy


ok sorry yes you can say

gauranteed 100% pure f&i are only bred by us


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*quickie for you lol

say i was to sell my 3 that i have coming in would you and terri confirm they were pure 100% fire and ice ???*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *quickie for you lol*
> 
> *say i was to sell my 3 that i have coming in would you and terri confirm they were pure 100% fire and ice ???*


but your not selling them are you????


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

woodrott said:


> ok sorry yes you can say
> 
> gauranteed 100% pure f&i are only bred by us


I mean what IS defined by 'pure', is it simply that they are originally bred by f&i in the US? As this seems a little arbitrary, is there no genetic requirement to this?

On that note, I may begin to call all my reptile offspring " Pure GG" 


Andy


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

woodrott said:


> but your not selling them are you????


*

That wasn't what we were asking, we may sell them on in the future. Thats down to us.*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I mean what IS defined by 'pure', is it simply that they are originally bred by f&i in the US? As this seems a little arbitrary, is there no genetic requirement to this?
> 
> On that note, I may begin to call all my reptile offspring " Pure GG"
> 
> ...


pure is a dragon bred by f&i useing there stock only










7


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## lefty (Jun 2, 2008)

i cant beleive that so many of you have doubted mark and his dragons. the simple fact is he is the uk rep for fire and ice dragons. he knows the ins and outs and isnt the sort that holds back info. he will speak for hours about this little fellas and he knows a hell of a lot and is more than willing to share. as for paper work. im doing my own paper work for my dragons and on there will be the pictures of the gran parents and a pic of the parents. then a space for weight of hatchling, date of birth, length and the names of both parents. i would sell them as fire and ice cross G&G, or G&G cross unknow or fire and ice pure. i think some people think too much about the money involved with top of the line beardies. it shouldnt and isnt the maqin purpose with woodrott. he has other things to do that seem to be very profitable other than the dragons. infact iv heard him personally put his dragons above his missus [she will kill him for that lmao!!] at the end of the day hes offering a service that not many other breeders do. he wants to help all people and that have dragons, not just people who have bouhgt from him. i will not buy from anyone else:no1:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *That wasn't what we were asking, we may sell them on in the future. Thats down to us.*


well down the line your would ask terri 

this has never come up so your breaking new ground


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

lefty said:


> i cant beleive that so many of you have doubted mark and his dragons. the simple fact is he is the uk rep for fire and ice dragons. he knows the ins and outs and isnt the sort that holds back info. he will speak for hours about this little fellas and he knows a hell of a lot and is more than willing to share. as for paper work. im doing my own paper work for my dragons and on there will be the pictures of the gran parents and a pic of the parents. then a space for weight of hatchling, date of birth, length and the names of both parents. i would sell them as fire and ice cross G&G, or G&G cross unknow or fire and ice pure. i think some people think too much about the money involved with top of the line beardies. it shouldnt and isnt the maqin purpose with woodrott. he has other things to do that seem to be very profitable other than the dragons. infact iv heard him personally put his dragons above his missus [she will kill him for that lmao!!] at the end of the day hes offering a service that not many other breeders do. he wants to help all people and that have dragons, not just people who have bouhgt from him. i will not buy from anyone else:no1:


cheers for that lefty

ill pay you later :lol2:


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

woodrott said:


> well down the line your would ask terri
> 
> this has never come up so your breaking new ground


*
Fair enough.
Just assumed this is how you kept track of all the 'pure' ones.

No worries we will deal with it if and when we do sell them.*


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

lefty said:


> i cant beleive that so many of you have doubted mark and his dragons. the simple fact is he is the uk rep for fire and ice dragons. he knows the ins and outs and isnt the sort that holds back info. he will speak for hours about this little fellas and he knows a hell of a lot and is more than willing to share. as for paper work. im doing my own paper work for my dragons and on there will be the pictures of the gran parents and a pic of the parents. then a space for weight of hatchling, date of birth, length and the names of both parents. i would sell them as fire and ice cross G&G, or G&G cross unknow or fire and ice pure. i think some people think too much about the money involved with top of the line beardies. it shouldnt and isnt the maqin purpose with woodrott. he has other things to do that seem to be very profitable other than the dragons. infact iv heard him personally put his dragons above his missus [she will kill him for that lmao!!] at the end of the day hes offering a service that not many other breeders do. he wants to help all people and that have dragons, not just people who have bouhgt from him. i will not buy from anyone else:no1:


*
I agree not many specific breeders do the leg work themselves.

However there are brokers out there who will do all the paperwork for you (with fee, of course) to import other dragons from all over the USA.
We have been looking into it as we would like some others soonish.

And also I think JCEXOTICS bring over Alphadragonz for people to purchase from him. (but don't quote me on that as we haven't got round to emailing him for more info)*

*So importing USA high end morph dragons is not just with mark, only fire & ice is exclusive to him to import and run over here.*

*Amy*


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *I agree not many specific breeders do the leg work themselves.*
> 
> *However there are brokers out there who will do all the paperwork for you (with fee, of course) to import other dragons from all over the USA.*
> *We have been looking into it as we would like some others soonish.*
> ...


again true

but as ive been to the usa to see terris set up and the way she breeds

ill stick with F&I thank you

i know a few breeders in the us and if you go ahead with your imports then all i can say is hope you get what you wont and have fun

a tip is make shaw you get what you pay for, know the breeder


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *I agree not many specific breeders do the leg work themselves.*
> 
> *However there are brokers out there who will do all the paperwork for you (with fee, of course) to import other dragons from all over the USA.*
> *We have been looking into it as we would like some others soonish.*
> ...


we are getting off the subject now
this is a thread about fire and ice
lets keep it that way please


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> You wanna get your facts straight phil before throwing accusations round. The dragon you are refering to is kept by me as a pet. Nowhere have I said she will be bred with as she is too small. So paperwork is irelivent. We have paperwork for all our fire and ice dragons and I don't think it's for you to be going telling people otherwise.
> 
> What's got into you over the last few weeks?


my facts are right.

all your F&I dragons do not have paperwork.

i only pointed that out as you said all the dragons did.


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> so if we have the name of the buyer i can check my paperwork????
> 
> there was one or two people that didnt have paperwork
> 
> ...


so how come you cannot give dave his paperwork for his dragon he got off you if you keep all the records?


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*


woodrott said:



again true

but as ive been to the usa to see terris set up and the way she breeds

ill stick with F&I thank you

i know a few breeders in the us and if you go ahead with your imports then all i can say is hope you get what you wont and have fun

a tip is make shaw you get what you pay for, know the breeder

Click to expand...


In this one simple statement you have made, it comes across to me that you are basically saying that if we import from any of the other big names in Dragon breeding we will not get what we pay for.

This sounds like to me that you are making out these breeders will rip us off.

And once again in my opinion, it seems like you are making out every other breeder is far inferior to F&I.

If I have got the wrong end of the stick then I do apologise, however you come across very arrogant and it may offend other important breeders the way you phrase things.

Maybe you should make a new thread warning people away from all other Usa breeders?? I wonder what they will make of this.

So far we have conversed via email with Kevin Dunne of Dragons Den, Bloodbank dragons and Alessandro, breeder of leather backs and Sunshine dragons. To me they come across as very honest breeders. But then again you do seem to know more than me, eh?* 


Amy


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *Fair enough.*
> *Just assumed this is how you kept track of all the 'pure' ones.*
> 
> *No worries we will deal with it if and when we do sell them.*


i change my paperwork when i know f&i have changed hands

as ive done quite a few times, i try to keep it up to date the best i can

but up to now no one has asked me to prove theres is pure

as this is why ive seid ask terri


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> again true
> 
> but as ive been to the usa to see terris set up and the way she breeds
> 
> ...


so you basically saying F&I dragons are the best you can get?

ive been in contact with breeders in the US who have the same quality dragons for sale as F&I if not better.


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *
> 
> 
> In this one simple statement you have made, it comes across to me that you are basically saying that if we import from any of the other big names in Dragon breeding we will not get what we pay for.
> ...


well said Amy


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

woodrott said:


> i change my paperwork when i know f&i have changed hands
> 
> as ive done quite a few times, i try to keep it up to date the best i can
> 
> ...


*

This is what I meant. We are coming to pick up our 3 holdbacks in September ( I know you dont have any memory of my husband but we have bought off Terri).
If we decide we do not want them anymore and sell them (still following?) 
Will we be able to notify you or Terri of the new owner of the dragons and paperwork so they do not face any problems in the future.


Because as it stands at the minute, I am absolutely disheartened by the whole F&I business. I was so looking forward to owning F&I but now I regret it and think I am going to sell them straight on and go with some other US breeders. Which is a shame as Terri did seem lovely.


Amy
*


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *In this one simple statement you have made, it comes across to me that you are basically saying that if we import from any of the other big names in Dragon breeding we will not get what we pay for.*
> 
> *This sounds like to me that you are making out these breeders will rip us off.*
> 
> ...


ok

ive been to terris and i liked what i saw so ill stick with f&i

ive had dragons from kevin through an importer i was not impressed
this is why i went to the us to see for my self

do you know how there kept, do you know how thay breed,do you know where most of there dragons go??????

yes it seem i do know more than you as ive been there

some of the other dragon breeders you have emailed i dont know about i dont know everyone 

im trying to be as nice as i can check then check again i do hope it all go,s
smoothly i realy do

as for arrogant well yes may be
to people that dont know me

but as thay say the diffrence between confidence and arrogance is a thin line and i step all over it :lol2:
i do, do a lot for people and ask for no thanks
if i can help you with anything then i will :whistling2:


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> so how come you cannot give dave his paperwork for his dragon he got off you if you keep all the records?


first who dave

and did he wont paperwork??

did he ask for paper work?? no or he would of got it


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> first who dave
> 
> and did he wont paperwork??
> 
> did he ask for paper work?? no or he would of got it



you was busy so you asked him to pm you the weight of the dragon when he got home.
he did do and still has no paperwork
yes he did ask and you said you couldnt remember him


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I have to admit I haven't followed the whole of this thread, but I am a little perplexed by a few points (but then perhaps my first point is the reason for the second). Firstly I don't grasp what the apparent difference in quaility is between F&I dragons and any other breeders, and how this is quantified? Quality of hatchling care aside, as I personally think this is very subjective, and secondly why a pure F&I dragon is important. They have dragons that are visually stunning, but also those that are less so. Coming from a certain breeder to my mind doesn't mean that the dragon is going to be fantastic per se. Especially when you can buy a dragon that is essentially an F1 F&I (first gen from a dragon just aquired by F&I), how is that different from the offspring from the breeder that dragon came from...

Please don't take this as critisism (I hope it doesn't sound like it) these are genuine non loaded questions.

Andy


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

woodrott said:


> ok
> 
> ive been to terris and i liked what i saw so ill stick with f&i
> 
> ...


* You are a middle man only imo. I want(not sure I do at the 'mo) F&I and it all had to come through you. So without sounding rude, you are a means to an end for me to get what I want, I will be only grateful to Terri for sending me beautiful dragons.*
*And when dealing with people in business, I would drop the arrogance as (it may only be me?) but it seems uncalled for.*


*
If I am wrong with anything I have said, I will stand by it and apologise. However I do not undertsand all this arrogance and put down over other breeders. Terri may be well known over here more so than other breeders and produce beautiful dragons but how can anyone say they are the best over everything else available?
Is there some sort of award Ive not heard of???*


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> so you basically saying F&I dragons are the best you can get?
> 
> ive been in contact with breeders in the US who have the same quality dragons for sale as F&I if not better.


yes f&i were the best i saw

and if you have found better then why are you bothered about f&i

why have you got dragons from me

why do you wont the red baby you have ordered

you can get better?????


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

woodrott said:


> first who dave
> 
> and did he wont paperwork??
> 
> did he ask for paper work?? no or he would of got it


*
Dave and I had the dragon off you, but amazingly you couldnt remember him!

You were too busy to do the paperwork then and would do it after we got home. But still not received after numerous pms asking for it.
*


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> yes f&i were the best i saw
> 
> and if you have found better then why are you bothered about f&i
> 
> ...



i have decided to sell my F&I dragons as its not worth all the hassle the F&I name brings


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> i have decided to sell my F&I dragons as its not worth all the hassle the F&I name brings



*Dave has a buyer for yours if you're interested?



Oopsie, I meant to put this in pm, Sorry!
*


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> you was busy so you asked him to pm you the weight of the dragon when he got home.
> he did do and still has no paperwork
> yes he did ask and you said you couldnt remember him


ive had no pm

ive checked

tell him to call me


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

woodrott said:


> ive had no pm
> 
> ive checked
> 
> tell him to call me


*he has no need to call you as i am here ....

HELLLOOOOO IM DAVE

i pm'd you several times the other week asking for paper work you stated you could not remember me what so ever
which i thought that was pretty impressive considering the way i look..

i told you when i came up what day what you were doing what was happening in your house i could even tell you how many **** we smoked and what we spoke about.

i myslef meet hundreds of people every week and i am pretty sure i could put a face to a name without difficulty.

you must remember my username on here from the pm's i sent you ????? *


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I have to admit I haven't followed the whole of this thread, but I am a little perplexed by a few points (but then perhaps my first point is the reason for the second). Firstly I don't grasp what the apparent difference in quaility is between F&I dragons and any other breeders, and how this is quantified? Quality of hatchling care aside, as I personally think this is very subjective, and secondly why a pure F&I dragon is important. They have dragons that are visually stunning, but also those that are less so. Coming from a certain breeder to my mind doesn't mean that the dragon is going to be fantastic per se. Especially when you can buy a dragon that is essentially an F1 F&I (first gen from a dragon just aquired by F&I), how is that different from the offspring from the breeder that dragon came from...
> 
> Please don't take this as critisism (I hope it doesn't sound like it) these are genuine non loaded questions.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Yes but phil, you are making this into something that its not. 

What are you bringing me into this for. All my fire and ice have paperwork. To be honest, it makes no difference if you tell people that we dont have paperwork as when we breed them then we will have to produce it. If i dont have it i cant show people but if i do, like i have said we do, then i can show it to people no problems. 

THIS IS FOR EVERYONE : It seems a shame that something that should be a great thing to do, like importing dragons should turn into such an argument. I havent met mark yet but he seems like a good bloke who is breeding top quality dragons for people to be able to buy over here cheaper than importing. If you want to import then he is more than willing to help. However people are jumping on this like something i have never seen and its wrong. This whole paperwork thing seems very simple to me, maybe i am missing something :whip:

Just to clear things up

We have the following fire and ice: 

harlaquin - paperwork
flame red - paperwork
red citrus - paperwork 
One we are importing sept - paperwork will be provided
One we are buying from mark in sept - paperwork will be provided

if you can please let me know which dragons we have that dont have the paperwork then i will hold my hands up but to be honest with you i can get proof as all the people i have bought them off are on here and will confirm it.

Anything else?


----------



## booboo (Apr 2, 2009)

We have to say that we are finding this very intresting to read !
We was put off of selling any more of our babies on RFUK because of a certain person on this thred:devil:
Its almost like being bullied.
I really do put it down to greed.
We are behind Apocalypic dragons on this one:no1:


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> * You are a middle man only imo. I want(not sure I do at the 'mo) F&I and it all had to come through you. So without sounding rude, you are a means to an end for me to get what I want, I will be only grateful to Terri for sending me beautiful dragons.*
> *And when dealing with people in business, I would drop the arrogance as (it may only be me?) but it seems uncalled for.*
> 
> 
> ...


sorry if thats how you feel

you dont have to come through me im shaw you can import them your self

did terri say you must come through me??? if she did ill call her if you wont to do it your self, if your not happy with me i dont wont to upset you any more


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

booboo said:


> We have to say that we are finding this very intresting to read !
> We was put off of selling any more of our babies on RFUK because of a certain person on this thred:devil:
> Its almost like being bullied.
> I really do put it down to greed.
> We are behind Apocalypic dragons on this one:no1:


*well shuck's many thanks* :rant2:


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

woodrott said:


> sorry if thats how you feel
> 
> you dont have to come through me im shaw you can import them your self
> 
> did terri say you must come through me??? if she did ill call her if you wont to do it your self, if your not happy with me i dont wont to upset you any more


*terri refused to send via other means to us *


----------



## lefty (Jun 2, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> i have decided to sell my F&I dragons as its not worth all the hassle the F&I name brings


phil, i9 dont know why your doing this???? im baffled!!! you introduced to me to woodrott. and now your slagging him off. it doesnt make sense. im no idiot, i know what a good breeder is! if you have an ultrearative motive then i think your being bang out of order mate. any one thats seen marks setups alone will say the same!! you havnt a leg 2 stand on.



Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *Dave has a buyer for yours if you're interested?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Nottingham Dragons said:


> Yes but phil, you are making this into something that its not.
> 
> What are you bringing me into this for. All my fire and ice have paperwork. To be honest, it makes no difference if you tell people that we dont have paperwork as when we breed them then we will have to produce it. If i dont have it i cant show people but if i do, like i have said we do, then i can show it to people no problems.
> 
> ...


thank you. at last! someone that knows what they are talking about: victory:. iv got 5 dragons from mark and cant praise his husbandry enuf but more so he loves the things and doent give a shit about the money!! he just wants everyone on the planet to have a beardie!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## booboo (Apr 2, 2009)

We also had problems when we was selling a F & I dragon with the paper work.
You can't what ever you do.:devil:


----------



## booboo (Apr 2, 2009)

:blush: oppps was ment to say you can't win what ever you do


----------



## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Booboo. All you have to do when breeding your own fire and ice is make your own paperwork for them. Then when customers come round and ask to see the fire and ice paperwork you have for your breeders, all you have to do is show them. If they want confirmation then its easily got. no one is bullying anyone, its meant to be something that brings happiness and fun to people not something to get pissed off, argue, and fight about

Come on people, sort it out its meant to be fun :2thumb:


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> i have decided to sell my F&I dragons as its not worth all the hassle the F&I name brings


thats up to you there your dragons, but isnt that cutting your nose of to spite your face

well if your importing better dragons then i mite do the same


----------



## booboo (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for the tip on the paper work:2thumb:
I really hope all can enjoy selling in the future !!!
There is enough room for all of us on RFUK.
And the most important thing is everyone has beautiful dragons, and people buying these will see that, and pick which one they would like.:flrt:


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

woodrott said:


> GlasgowGecko said:
> 
> 
> > I have to admit I haven't followed the whole of this thread, but I am a little perplexed by a few points (but then perhaps my first point is the reason for the second). Firstly I don't grasp what the apparent difference in quaility is between F&I dragons and any other breeders, and how this is quantified? Quality of hatchling care aside, as I personally think this is very subjective, and secondly why a pure F&I dragon is important. They have dragons that are visually stunning, but also those that are less so. Coming from a certain breeder to my mind doesn't mean that the dragon is going to be fantastic per se. Especially when you can buy a dragon that is essentially an F1 F&I (first gen from a dragon just aquired by F&I), how is that different from the offspring from the breeder that dragon came from...
> ...


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*Lefty- why are you calling me a smart arse? I actually felt quite silly with my mistake. No need to have a go at me. Also with all the swearing in your post, you have to remember this is not in 18+. Swearing is totally unnessacary.

Believe it or not I wanted these dragons and my lovely husband (Dave) bought them for me. I was so excited at the thought of getting these and breeding them and to see all the beautiful little babies. Now I am upset and fed up with this all.
All I wanted was some of these dragons(fell in love with them off Terri's site), not all the hassle that comes with the brand name.

Amy

*


----------



## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

This is my point, all we are doing it for is the fun of it. We cant wait to see what hatchlings we can produce. Its not a profit making game if you are doing it properly and feeding them enough as your outgoings are paid for by the hatchlings. I just want to do it as a hobby and i hope others do too as its one of the best pass times one can have. It shouldnt be seen as something not to get into because of hastle but it is kept quite simple if people just ask for paperwork to see the parentage.


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *he has no need to call you as i am here ....*
> 
> *HELLLOOOOO IM DAVE*
> 
> ...


 
ok yes i remember the pm now and didnt i say we will sort it out when you come to pick up your imports /i cant remember saying no i wont give you the paperwork

so what has this got to do with phil???

as far as i remember we were sorting it out

or have i got it wrong


----------



## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*We only said we still haven't got it yet.

Just didn't think we would have to wait this long with a simple click of a button.
*


----------



## booboo (Apr 2, 2009)

Im with you all the way on that reply Nottingham dragons:2thumb:


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

booboo said:


> We have to say that we are finding this very intresting to read !
> We was put off of selling any more of our babies on RFUK because of a certain person on this thred:devil:
> Its almost like being bullied.
> I really do put it down to greed.
> We are behind Apocalypic dragons on this one:no1:


have i upset you too??

if so when did i bully you???


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

booboo said:


> :blush: oppps was ment to say you can't win what ever you do


 
if you have paperwork then theres no problem

i can confirm it for you im shaw

what was the problem


----------



## booboo (Apr 2, 2009)

I have had my say on the matter now and i just want to be able to sale any babies we have in the future, without my tread being bombarded with digs from other
Thank you all:2thumb:


----------



## vitticeptus (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi Mark I have some outstanding citrus and super citrus which I bought from Terri and shipped to the UK(with your help)I was wondering if any Ice morphs would be available any time soon either from yourself or Terri:2thumb:

thanks

steve


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

booboo said:


> Thanks for the tip on the paper work:2thumb:
> I really hope all can enjoy selling in the future !!!
> There is enough room for all of us on RFUK.
> And the most important thing is everyone has beautiful dragons, and people buying these will see that, and pick which one they would like.:flrt:


here here 

i opened this thread to help people wich i will still do, in any way i can


----------



## booboo (Apr 2, 2009)

Ok i have one question, if i sale some babies that are from my F & I female ( with paper work ) but fathered by a blood red, how would i advitise them without upsetting anyone
Thanks in advance:2thumb:


----------



## Andi Mack (May 30, 2009)

booboo said:


> Ok i have one question, if i sale some babies that are from my F & I female ( with paper work ) but fathered by a blood red, how would i advitise them without upsetting anyone
> Thanks in advance:2thumb:


Blood red x F&I (whatever morph and gen) would be how i'd advertise them.

Clear and to the point.

Just my 2p's worth.


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> woodrott said:
> 
> 
> > This didn't really answer any of my questions. I know this thread has decended into a bit of a slanging match, but I'm genuinely interested in your answers.
> ...


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

ive not said he is a shit breeder or commented on his setups so what are you about ??????????????

what are you on about i dont have a leg to stand on??????

cant be arsed chatting to you anyhow.





lefty said:


> phil, i9 dont know why your doing this???? im baffled!!! you introduced to me to woodrott. and now your slagging him off. it doesnt make sense. im no idiot, i know what a good breeder is! if you have an ultrearative motive then i think your being bang out of order mate. any one thats seen marks setups alone will say the same!! you havnt a leg 2 stand on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

vitticeptus said:


> Hi Mark I have some outstanding citrus and super citrus which I bought from Terri and shipped to the UK(with your help)I was wondering if any Ice morphs would be available any time soon either from yourself or Terri:2thumb:
> 
> thanks
> 
> steve


sorry ive not got any at the moment
but terri will have some soon because im waiting for one


----------



## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> thats up to you there your dragons, but isnt that cutting your nose of to spite your face
> 
> well if your importing better dragons then i mite do the same


no not really.

would just prefer to breed other dragons where nobody jumps down your throat


----------



## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Are you putting a box on in november mark??

I have been looking at their website and have my eye on one or two, lol

:2thumb:


----------



## vitticeptus (Jul 16, 2008)

woodrott said:


> sorry ive not got any at the moment
> but terri will have some soon because im waiting for one


Thanks Mark I will send Terri an email.:notworthy:


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Whilst I don't doubt the quality of some of the individuals that they sell, or the quality of their care and husbandry, but my point is really this: I don't see the classification of 'pure fire and ice' as the most appropriate way to list something. If an animal is X morph bred by Fire and Ice, this is very clear. If an animal is listed as 'pure F&I' when in essence it is a cross between two random F&I individuals, what exactly does it mean? It hasn't been bred by F&I, so not subject to their husbandry, it is in essence just a dragon bred from individuals from a certain breeder. The point may seem slight, but there is no difference between the dragon I have just described, and one resulting from a single F&I bred individual, and an non F&I bred one, or two non F&I bred dragons.

A high red dragon is either genetically controlled, isolated by F&I, for which it doesn't need to be breed directly from two fire and ice, OR line bred by F&I, and again to produce high red offspring does not need to be bred from two f&I dragons.

The point i'm making (eventually) is, a correct distinction would revolve around actual morph deffinitions (or phase deffinitions) that arise from F&I, anything else is pretty meaningless, and would remove all of the ambiguity, back biting and mis-information.

Andy


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> no not really.
> 
> would just prefer to breed other dragons where nobody jumps down your throat


i think the problem is a lot of people wont F&I

but there not shaw how to go about it

or are scared of being ripped off, this is why i started this thread

why did you buy them?? probbley because you looked at them and went i wont one

when you came here you were like a kid in a sweet shop

if you had a grand you would of spent it

now im i wright


----------



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Whilst I don't doubt the quality of some of the individuals that they sell, or the quality of their care and husbandry, but my point is really this: I don't see the classification of 'pure fire and ice' as the most appropriate way to list something. If an animal is X morph bred by Fire and Ice, this is very clear. If an animal is listed as 'pure F&I' when in essence it is a cross between two random F&I individuals, what exactly does it mean? It hasn't been bred by F&I, so not subject to their husbandry, it is in essence just a dragon bred from individuals from a certain breeder. The point may seem slight, but there is no difference between the dragon I have just described, and one resulting from a single F&I bred individual, and an non F&I bred one, or two non F&I bred dragons.
> 
> A high red dragon is either genetically controlled, isolated by F&I, for which it doesn't need to be breed directly from two fire and ice, OR line bred by F&I, and again to produce high red offspring does not need to be bred from two f&I dragons.
> 
> ...


theres noththing random about terris breeding i would say she picks them for there genetics 

as for pure
maybe your right changeing it to breed by fire and ice mite be better

i would be happy to speek to terri about it no problem if it would help ??


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> Are you putting a box on in november mark??
> 
> I have been looking at their website and have my eye on one or two, lol
> 
> :2thumb:


maybe im not shaw lets get this box over first

if theres demand then probbley


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> i think the problem is a lot of people wont F&I
> 
> but there not shaw how to go about it
> 
> ...


i wouldnt let somebody rip me off.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

woodrott said:


> theres noththing random about terris breeding i would say she picks them for there genetics
> *This is not entirely what I mean, If I for example bred two F&I dragons of differing phase/ morph, but the current method/ system I can class these as 'pure F&I dragons'. This is at best ridiculous*, *it really doesn't mean anything other than at some point x generations ago, these guys passed through a very large breeder.*
> 
> as for pure
> ...


One brief point on the paperwork, and being pure, it really seems to be an attempt to trade on another breeders reputation, but other than profit, I just don't see the reason for it. Surely an animal bred by me (I don't breed bearded dragons, so simply an example) is of an equal quaility to any other breeder?

Andy


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Whilst I don't doubt the quality of some of the individuals that they sell, or the quality of their care and husbandry, but my point is really this: I don't see the classification of 'pure fire and ice' as the most appropriate way to list something. If an animal is X morph bred by Fire and Ice, this is very clear. If an animal is listed as 'pure F&I' when in essence it is a cross between two random F&I individuals, what exactly does it mean? It hasn't been bred by F&I, so not subject to their husbandry, it is in essence just a dragon bred from individuals from a certain breeder. The point may seem slight, but there is no difference between the dragon I have just described, and one resulting from a single F&I bred individual, and an non F&I bred one, or two non F&I bred dragons.
> 
> A high red dragon is either genetically controlled, isolated by F&I, for which it doesn't need to be breed directly from two fire and ice, OR line bred by F&I, and again to produce high red offspring does not need to be bred from two f&I dragons.
> 
> ...


*
This what we have found very confusing. For instance (this is something I don't know much about but here goes) from what I have seen with Leopard geckos and royal pythons (easiest ones I can use for example). They are born and identified by whatever morph they are, with Bearded dragons there are blood lines that have come up like the genetic mutations ie hypo and also from what I have read up on the reds were first discovered by Chris Allen- Chris Allen reds and so on. But from then on it gets very confusing. 
Without knowing what breeder it came from and knowing the lineage you are sort of not allowed to call it such and such, it seems better to call it a high red or red phase etc..
Really Fire & Ice is kind of like a brand name and is very well known over here. 
The reason why we went with Terri's dragons is simply because they are stunning and we would like to breed them.
However this paperwork 'stuff' seems to be getting more out of control rather than weedling out the so called scammers.

We are at the point where we are lost! And unhappy with the whole situation.
Unfortunetely this thread turned nasty and lots of breeders appeared to be 'slagged off' which is unfair over some basically pretty dragons.

Sorry to twaffle on!*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> i wouldnt let somebody rip me off.


maybe not

you did your home work first i would of seid

you went to the breeder

you picked your dragon

you got your paperwork

are you happy / yes

its not hard ,only if you make it so

you got one of the best dragons i bred last year

and if i remember at a very very good price

you of all people should be over the moon with him

hav,et i all ways treated you right or am i kidding my self


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

I agree, none of us should be brought up in a thread like this and slagged off. I know the reasons for it and i know why a certain person has turned on fire and ice. I am not going into it as its not my place to say but over the last couple of weeks i have had nothing but hostility from them and for no reason. I would say about two or three weeks ago we had no problems so i dont know whats changed.

It isnt jelousy is it?


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> I agree, none of us should be brought up in a thread like this and slagged off. I know the reasons for it and i know why a certain person has turned on fire and ice. I am not going into it as its not my place to say but over the last couple of weeks i have had nothing but hostility from them and for no reason. I would say about two or three weeks ago we had no problems so i dont know whats changed.
> 
> It isnt jelousy is it?



*I actually wasn't referring to any of 'us', I was actually referring to the way other big US breeders were made out to be inferior.

And why would anyone be jealous?*


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> I agree, none of us should be brought up in a thread like this and slagged off. I know the reasons for it and i know why a certain person has turned on fire and ice. I am not going into it as its not my place to say but over the last couple of weeks i have had nothing but hostility from them and for no reason. I would say about two or three weeks ago we had no problems so i dont know whats changed.
> 
> It isnt jelousy is it?



if thats aimed at me why would i be jealous of you????????


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

But from you coming round, to phoning me up and being matey its gone to coming on here on numbers of threads and having digs, slagging us off, calling us scammers

We have never been anything but nice to you and your family so i dont know where this has come from. its ever since the other night when i collected the fire and ice from madsmum. I said i had a flame red and a harlaquin. You sent me a funny pm saying i had your dragon and you sent mark a message asking him why he has sold me your dragon. i have never been to chester and dont have it!! Ever since then you have been funny with me.

If im wrong then i will apologise but im not am i


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Come on people.Lets stick to the questions without arguing or slagging off people.I dont have any bearded dragons (though have had a normal years an years ago) so the morphs/phases are alien to me.I am reading this trying to work out the difference between fire and ice and red phase!

Can we please stick to the basics too so people who like me are in the dark about the whole morph lineage can try and understand.Cheers.

P.s. i can honestly say i have read so many positive threads regarding Woodrott and his bearded dragons that i would definately be knocking at his door for information and a beardie if ever i decided to get one.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> One brief point on the paperwork, and being pure, it really seems to be an attempt to trade on another breeders reputation, but other than profit, I just don't see the reason for it. Surely an animal bred by me (I don't breed bearded dragons, so simply an example) is of an equal quaility to any other breeder?
> 
> Andy


ive never bulled any one only asked for paper work as far as i remember

if any one thinks so then im sorry

i think your right on the reputation

i get lots of people saying how much can i make, and i tell them you wont make anything, well i dont my dragons cost me over £8,000 last year so im not in it for the cash

as for the dragons being the same as everyones

you would need to ask every one else that question


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> But from you coming round, to phoning me up and being matey its gone to coming on here on numbers of threads and having digs, slagging us off, calling us scammers
> 
> We have never been anything but nice to you and your family so i dont know where this has come from. its ever since the other night when i collected the fire and ice from madsmum. I said i had a flame red and a harlaquin. You sent me a funny pm saying i had your dragon and you sent mark a message asking him why he has sold me your dragon. i have never been to chester and dont have it!! Ever since then you have been funny with me.
> 
> If im wrong then i will apologise but im not am i


listen pal i asked you if you brought it, not you had brought it, 
please get your facts right.
so what if i sent a pm to mark and your point??????????
you think what you want pal.
the scammer part was a joke, hence the lol at the end.
why have you got something to hide to be so defensive


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

woodrott said:


> ive never bulled any one only asked for paper work as far as i remember
> 
> if any one thinks so then im sorry
> 
> ...


I think the nail has been hit on the head here! I am getting the gist that most people are thinking £££ signs , when in truth it must be really hard to break even if you feed your dragon properly and think of electric charges etc.. It is obvious that Woodrott does it for love not money which i think is great!:no1:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

hollypops said:


> Come on people.Lets stick to the questions without arguing or slagging off people.I dont have any bearded dragons (though have had a normal years an years ago) so the morphs/phases are alien to me.I am reading this trying to work out the difference between fire and ice and red phase!
> 
> Can we please stick to the basics too so people who like me are in the dark about the whole morph lineage can try and understand.Cheers.
> 
> P.s. i can honestly say i have read so many positive threads regarding Woodrott and his bearded dragons that i would definately be knocking at his door for information and a beardie if ever i decided to get one.


cheers


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Look forget it im off. I dont want to be falling out with people on here its not worth it. I just dont want people going round saying we havent got paperwork when we have., it gives people the wrong impession. No problem, if it was a joke then forget it. 
Mark just sent me a pm to ask why he was getting messages saying he had sold me your dragon when he knew nothing about it thats all.
Its all getting a bit petty when it meant to be a thread letting people know the ins and outs of paperwork etc...

Cheers everyone for a great debate :2thumb:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

hollypops said:


> I think the nail has been hit on the head here! I am getting the gist that most people are thinking £££ signs , when in truth it must be really hard to break even if you feed your dragon properly and think of electric charges etc.. It is obvious that Woodrott does it for love not money which i think is great!:no1:


cheers again

your welcome here anytime


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

woodrott said:


> ive never bulled any one only asked for paper work as far as i remember
> 
> if any one thinks so then im sorry
> 
> ...


Sorry If that sounded like I was accusing you of bullying, I was not, simply repeating a list of issues raised. It wasn't aimed at you.

The point about one dragon being essentially the same as another, this really isn't questionable. A line bred individual bred to any other individual (F&I or not) will produce offspring with varying propotions of the line bred character. Quality of the animal is subjective, but the offspring of two line bred F&I , and the offspring of an F&I and a non-F&I are indistinguishable, so quality is equal, and parentage becomes next to worthless.

Andy


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## stevenw (Feb 28, 2009)

woodrott said:


> there we go sorted, hope this clears it up
> 
> gav seems to be a genuine guy hes got a good name on here
> 
> ...


no probs with gav ... he gave me his paperwork for the dragons i got 
i know where the parents came from and that HE has the paperwork for the parents conc wich leads to the person they came from and so on hence if i wanted to i can speak to the person who started the chain.. so as far as im concerned gav is fine and i understand the paperwork as per the thread, SURELY IF YOU want a F&I YOU would do your reasearch t6o make 100% sure its genuine ..thinks this is correct


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Sorry If that sounded like I was accusing you of bullying, I was not, simply repeating a list of issues raised. It wasn't aimed at you.
> 
> The point about one dragon being essentially the same as another, this really isn't questionable. A line bred individual bred to any other individual (F&I or not) will produce offspring with varying propotions of the line bred character. Quality of the animal is subjective, but the offspring of two line bred F&I , and the offspring of an F&I and a non-F&I are indistinguishable, so quality is equal, and parentage becomes next to worthless.
> 
> Andy


dont worry about the bully thing ive thick skin

so your saying

one F&I red x a citrus non F&I will be the same as F&I red x F&I citrus

is that what you are getting at







f


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stevenw said:


> no probs with gav ... he gave me his paperwork for the dragons i got
> i know where the parents came from and that HE has the paperwork for the parents conc wich leads to the person they came from and so on hence if i wanted to i can speak to the person who started the chain.. so as far as im concerned gav is fine and i understand the paperwork as per the thread, SURELY IF YOU want a F&I YOU would do your reasearch t6o make 100% sure its genuine ..thinks this is correct


well you would think so??

but i feel its not getting through to some people

may be its to hard i dont know

may be its me people dont like???

whos got the problem ????


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## dragon40 (Feb 12, 2009)

*Fire & ice*

Hi i am new to this forum but i do know my dragons. it seems that people are breeding Bearded dragons & are Selling them as Fire & ice...... Yes i sure some are fire & ice, But all no; if i am spending my hard earned money I would spend a lot of time researching what i am going to buy..... 

All i am saying is take five minutes give mark pickstock a call or make the effort to go & see his dragons....

I will have a stall at the maidstone reptile show in kent on the 30 August 2009 on display i will have 2 my Fire & ice (not for sale) from Mark come & have a look at QUAILTY of his dragons... & make you own choice...:2thumb::2thumb:


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## stevenw (Feb 28, 2009)

woodrott said:


> well you would think so??
> 
> but i feel its not getting through to some people
> 
> ...


I would be intrested in jumping on the band wagon for the next box although !! gav might have taken all my room up ......

please let me know though when the next one will be and no doubt ill see you again soon Gav .. P.s the little ones are great doing well no prblems .. :2thumb:


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## Scales and Fangs (Mar 22, 2007)

Back to question time.

Woodrot, I am having trouble with the 1st gen, 2nd gen etc......

If I had a baby male F&I and a baby female F&I from terri and the 2 babies had diefferent parents but still from terri (you with me so far) and I have paprework from terri for them both showing the parents, then........

When they grow to adults I breed them and produce babies:

1, What gen would the babies I produce be

2, I produce my own certs for these showing their parents that I have and then their parents (grandparents) that terri has, am I selling "pure" F&I

Tanks for reading

Rob.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

woodrott said:


> dont worry about the bully thing ive thick skin
> 
> so your saying
> 
> ...


Its interesting you should choose that as an example, these are both line bred traits (to my knowledge) and so the offspring of a line cross like this will show less defined character than either parent, and varying proportions of each character relative to their siblings. This is a perfect example of the flawed nature of classing the resultant offspring as 'pure F&I'. But yes, this is exaclty my point, you cannot distinguish the combinations you have mentioned with any certainty more than pure guess work, and so to my mind, the offspring are worth the value of their apperance, not the value of their ancestors breeders reputation.

Again, this is not an attack on you, or any aspect of your buisness etc, more a general point about selling FX generation F&I dragons, if indeed there can be classified as such....

Andy


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Glad to hear your babies are doing well. I have another clutch ready in 3 weeks with 2 of the hypo citrus x red babies in there. Looking good at the moment and growing fast. Eat like little pigs. Also at the beggining of september we have some high orange x citrus babies hatching and two weeks later we have a very special clutch hatching. Cant wait, : victory:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Scales and Fangs said:


> Back to question time.
> 
> Woodrot, I am having trouble with the 1st gen, 2nd gen etc......
> 
> ...


if im reading it wright then there 1st gen fire and ice

yes thay would be pure but we could,nt confirm it 

as you bred them not us 

but we will confirm you have had our dragons

then its up to the people that buy them from you

is that clear???? if not tell me and ill give you a call


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## Scales and Fangs (Mar 22, 2007)

Yeah thats fine, just one quirey (sp) 

If you confirm the 2 that I got from terri, surely thats confirmation in itself for the offspring from them?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Its interesting you should choose that as an example, these are both line bred traits (to my knowledge) and so the offspring of a line cross like this will show less defined character than either parent, and varying proportions of each character relative to their siblings. This is a perfect example of the flawed nature of classing the resultant offspring as 'pure F&I'. But yes, this is exaclty my point, you cannot distinguish the combinations you have mentioned with any certainty more than pure guess work, and so to my mind, the offspring are worth the value of their apperance, not the value of their ancestors breeders reputation.
> 
> Again, this is not an attack on you, or any aspect of your buisness etc, more a general point about selling FX generation F&I dragons, if indeed there can be classified as such....
> 
> Andy


well i did seid pairing last year

and well the diffrence was black and white the non fire and ice female in the pairing

had very dull babys
hatched with no colour

the two F&I had stunning babys 
colour out of the egg

now as adults if there the same i dont know,, maybe

but as babys theres a lot of diffrence


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Scales and Fangs said:


> Yeah thats fine, just one quirey (sp)
> 
> If you confirm the 2 that I got from terri, surely thats confirmation in itself for the offspring from them?


well you would think so yes 

at the end of the day its just bragging rights that some people wont


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## Scales and Fangs (Mar 22, 2007)

woodrott said:


> well you would think so yes
> 
> at the end of the day its just bragging rights that some people wont


yeah I understand mate and that must be very frustrating, however for me, when I sell them, I want to be 100% accurate with the description so this thread has been very helpfull to me so thank you for clearing up the gen question for me.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Scales and Fangs said:


> yeah I understand mate and that must be very frustrating, however for me, when I sell them, I want to be 100% accurate with the description so this thread has been very helpfull to me so thank you for clearing up the gen question for me.


thats what im here for

your welcome

and have fun with the babys

there colour is stunning as soon as thay hatch


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## Scales and Fangs (Mar 22, 2007)

got a couple of weeks to go yet then we can start getting all excited lol


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Scales and Fangs said:


> got a couple of weeks to go yet then we can start getting all excited lol


wich babys did you buy from terri

how mom and dad??


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

woodrott said:


> wich babys did you buy from terri
> 
> how mom and dad??


 
sorry:blush: whos there mom and dads


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## volly (Mar 6, 2009)

WOW!!! What an entertaining thread this turned out to be!!

There seems to be so much back stabbing and s**t stirring in the world of Beardie Breeding that I think I'll stick to building Vivs.

I did consider buying from F&I but then I did some research and decided against it ( nothing personal but the whole process put me off )


First of all, I realised that F&I is just a brand/trade name for a company that breeds a certain colour/morph of beardie.

Then I found quite a few other breeders/suppliers who can supply the same quality/colour/morph of beardies without the HUGE shipping costs that appear to apply to F&I's dragon imports.

Then, I saw all of the bickering and arguing and general uproar over ""who is best"" and ""what is right"" on here so I decided to stick with my pet Leopard Gecko and carry on just supplying vivs, lol.

I'm sure everyone has thier own prefferences and reasons for the comments that they make but I personally couldn't be bothered with the general hassle of it all.

LIFE'S TOO SHORT!! ha ha

anyway, if anyone wants any good quality, custom desgined Vivs making, feel free to PM me, lol.

Cheers and good luck with the rest of this thread


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## volly (Mar 6, 2009)

SORRY!!!

I'd just like to add that it wasn't the F&I thing that put me off getting beardies - it was the whole BEARDIE breeding thing in general.

Just seems like too much hassle


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

volly said:


> WOW!!! What an entertaining thread this turned out to be!!
> 
> There seems to be so much back stabbing and s**t stirring in the world of Beardie Breeding that I think I'll stick to building Vivs.
> 
> ...


hi there a new face on the thread

the importing is,nt cheep if you do it by your self thats true

as for the slagging down your right not needed

life is too short but it keeps them off the streets

ans say hi to your gecko for me


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## Scales and Fangs (Mar 22, 2007)

woodrott said:


> sorry:blush: whos there mom and dads


PM'd ya


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

Hi I had forgoten about this but this thead reminded me of an email I got off of fire and ice slagging off the living rainforest.

"Let's put it this way, I would not buy them. Our uk rep has been there and has nothing but horrific things to say about husbandry and condition of dragons. You don't want dragons with missing parts, starving or loaded with parasites. Also this is 5 generations at least removed from our stock. Hope this helps."

This was quite upsetting as I had already oredered them by the time I got this email.


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## Mattsetback (Nov 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> well said Amy


 
Eh? All he's said is that you should trust the breeder you're gonna buy the dragons from. This applies to F+I too.
He's not implied that his are better than everyone elses. I think you're looking for things that aren't there.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

woodrott said:


> well i did seid pairing last year
> 
> and well the diffrence was black and white the non fire and ice female in the pairing
> 
> ...


With the greatest will in the world this is not evidence, far from it. The effects of each line bred cross will be effectively random, and there will be a normal distribution of each character throughout the offspring. 

Andy


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## fran2491 (Oct 10, 2008)

wondered how long it would take for the living rainforest to be mentioned lol:devil: all i can say is from personal experiences with them very good sales patter and friendly guy but the dragon i got from him had toe nips and is still a problem feeder 10 months on she still needs hand feeding at times or she wont eat,i also know many other peeps who have had probs with there dragons but its not my place to say, i can only comment about the one i have had from there and i wouldnt buy from there again just glad i didnt buy a trio as i planned :flrt:


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

Just to add I have been really pleased with my dragons from the living rain forest he is a nice guy the dragons have great colour. When one was the wrong sex he evan exchanged it for me with out having to pay for delivery again, not many people would do that. : victory:


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## Living Rain (Aug 31, 2006)

fran2491 said:


> wondered how long it would take for the living rainforest to be mentioned lol:devil: all i can say is from personal experiences with them very good sales patter and friendly guy but the dragon i got from him had toe nips and is still a problem feeder 10 months on she still needs hand feeding at times or she wont eat,i also know many other peeps who have had probs with there dragons but its not my place to say, i can only comment about the one i have had from there and i wouldnt buy from there again just glad i didnt buy a trio as i planned :flrt:


Hi Fran,
All i can say is very very sorry and i have sent you a pm. If things like that where know at the time i would never have sent her to you honestly.
I have spoken about this today with Mark and unfortunately as with nature there is a percentage that go wrong, but if eating was a problem the dragon would go nowhere.
Please accept my appologies.
Steve 



imginy said:


> Just to add I have been really pleased with my dragons from the living rain forest he is a nice guy the dragons have great colour. When one was the wrong sex he evan exchanged it for me with out having to pay for delivery again, not many people would do that. : victory:


Hi,
Thanks will drop you a pm.
Steve


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

imginy said:


> Hi I had forgoten about this but this thead reminded me of an email I got off of fire and ice slagging off the living rainforest.
> 
> "Let's put it this way, I would not buy them. Our uk rep has been there and has nothing but horrific things to say about husbandry and condition of dragons. You don't want dragons with missing parts, starving or loaded with parasites. Also this is 5 generations at least removed from our stock. Hope this helps."
> 
> This was quite upsetting as I had already oredered them by the time I got this email.


good morning

now your points

conditions
ive been to steves , and the shop is spottless terri has this wrong and when i speek to her i will tell her she has it wrong

husbandry
as before its spottless

missing parts
steve sells dragons with tails and toes nipped.fact, he sells them cheeper as thay have bits missing.terri will not sell a dragon like this, as its part of her standards[ bits missing is a pet hate of terris] steve will have a few with bits missing as he keeps a few babys together. F&I keep no more than 2 or 3 in one tub so a lot less chance.

starving
steve feeds once a day
F&I feed babys 7 times a day
this is why are dragons are so big at a young age
steves a pet shop he needs to make money 
he feeds crics,loc,mealworms ,[fine] once a day
F&I feed 7 times a day crics locs butterworms silkworms wax worms and so on
the food is a lot better ,and thay get more ,this is why steves dragons look starved along side ours
steve wishes he had the money to feed like we do but he cant afford too

parasites

this refurs to 2 dragons that died of steves.
thay were very thin and didnt eat very well .
this can happen and did
F&I treat as standard twice a year for parasites if needed or not
so we dont get this problem

5th gen

this is true he sells 5th gen
the colour is not a bright as ours, as there 5th gen
also F&I dragons have moved on improving there dragons so yes there going to look brighter


ive spent over an hour on the phone with steve and he seems happy with what ive told him, and if steve thinks diffrent then he will tell me

steve had only good things to say about F&I.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Mattsetback said:


> Eh? All he's said is that you should trust the breeder you're gonna buy the dragons from. This applies to F+I too.
> He's not implied that his are better than everyone elses. I think you're looking for things that aren't there.


thank you


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> With the greatest will in the world this is not evidence, far from it. The effects of each line bred cross will be effectively random, and there will be a normal distribution of each character throughout the offspring.
> 
> Andy


sorry im a bit slow with this post got a lot to read

yes your right but it happened got the pics to prove it

work that one out ,,,its got me too


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

fran2491 said:


> wondered how long it would take for the living rainforest to be mentioned lol:devil: all i can say is from personal experiences with them very good sales patter and friendly guy but the dragon i got from him had toe nips and is still a problem feeder 10 months on she still needs hand feeding at times or she wont eat,i also know many other peeps who have had probs with there dragons but its not my place to say, i can only comment about the one i have had from there and i wouldnt buy from there again just glad i didnt buy a trio as i planned :flrt:


sorry to here that

this is for every one if you have problems with any dragons the please tell the breeder

its the only way to try and fix it,,,,

anyway hi hun

hows the babys you had from me???
fine i hope???


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

imginy said:


> Just to add I have been really pleased with my dragons from the living rain forest he is a nice guy the dragons have great colour. When one was the wrong sex he evan exchanged it for me with out having to pay for delivery again, not many people would do that. : victory:


thats good of steve

we do the same all good breeders should


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## fran2491 (Oct 10, 2008)

woodrott said:


> sorry to here that
> 
> this is for every one if you have problems with any dragons the please tell the breeder
> 
> ...



yes hun your beardies are doing great growing very fast and eating like pigs lol :2thumb:cant wait till you have some more for sale will be back for more great quality dragons,very well fed and cared for, defo some of the most stunning colored beardies iv ever seen lol cant recommend you enough:flrt:


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## Asmodai (Jan 6, 2009)

I got a question.
How do you make a lizard (AKA beardie) that is natively green/brown into a lizard that is bright red and white. Is it some kind of mutation like those horrible looking silkbacks?
No flaming please.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

ok great i think ive replyed to all the posts
sorry if ive missed any??
if i have then please try again


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

Thread cleaned and reopened - I think I got most of the rubbish, but let me know if I missed any...



Please keep any personal vendettas out of this - if you have a problem with another forum member, please keep it off of the public forums.

Whilst we have no problem with debates and disagreements, it's not on to have a thread degenerate into insults, abuse and general flaming.


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## lefty (Jun 2, 2008)

HadesDragons said:


> Thread cleaned and reopened - I think I got most of the rubbish, but let me know if I missed any...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


totally agree:2thumb: i for one would like to apologies to anyone i swore at and the op. brilliant idea for a thread by the way:no1:


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## byron1987 (May 7, 2009)

Asmodai said:


> I got a question.
> How do you make a lizard (AKA beardie) that is natively green/brown into a lizard that is bright red and white. Is it some kind of mutation like those horrible looking silkbacks?
> No flaming please.


 
can u plz awnser that 1 as i have wounderd the same ;-) cheers


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

HadesDragons said:


> Thread cleaned and reopened - I think I got most of the rubbish, but let me know if I missed any...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


cheers andy

dont wont it closed


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Asmodai said:


> I got a question.
> How do you make a lizard (AKA beardie) that is natively green/brown into a lizard that is bright red and white. Is it some kind of mutation like those horrible looking silkbacks?
> No flaming please.


ok sorry i missed you
this is a thread about F&I, but ill try, andy at hades dragons is better than me at this one

some dragons [wild ]have bits of colour in them
over lots of years of breeding, starting with the wild one with a bit of colour you get to the dragons you see today

theres a lot to this question
but it takes years you cant turn yours to a bright one over night

is this what you needed to know or have i got it wrong:blush:


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## byron1987 (May 7, 2009)

yes i get what u are saying :2thumb: i thought if u breed a bearded dragon the further down the tree it would lose colour ? weird lol


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

byron1987 said:


> yes i get what u are saying :2thumb: i thought if u breed a bearded dragon the further down the tree it would lose colour ? weird lol


hope it helped???


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

just letting you know i no longer want the dragon


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Its interesting you should choose that as an example, these are both line bred traits (to my knowledge) and so the offspring of a line cross like this will show less defined character than either parent, and varying proportions of each character relative to their siblings. This is a perfect example of the flawed nature of classing the resultant offspring as 'pure F&I'. But yes, this is exaclty my point, you cannot distinguish the combinations you have mentioned with any certainty more than pure guess work, and so to my mind, the offspring are worth the value of their apperance, not the value of their ancestors breeders reputation.
> 
> Again, this is not an attack on you, or any aspect of your buisness etc, more a general point about selling FX generation F&I dragons, if indeed there can be classified as such....
> 
> Andy


hi andy what do you think about this one???

i know this paperwork thing you cant see the point

but dont you think that having some paperwork would stop inbreeding

as theres only a few hundred F&I dragons in the uk and every one wonts them
the gen pool is a bit small and inbreeding is possable wich no one would wont

i think then if only to stop inbreeding paperwork would be ok

what do you think

mark


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> just letting you know i no longer want the dragon


thanks for letting me know phil

its a pitty its one of the first ferrari x tempest in the uk

never mind mark in london will give it a good home when i think its ready to go

thanks again


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Inbreeding is actually an interesting topic with regards to the whole 'pure' debate, as you know line bred traits are created from selecting individuals which express a certain character to the greatest extent, and breeding them with either an individual with similar character expression or one of the parents (typically the male). The intensity of the desired trait is usually directly correlated with the number of generations it has taken to isolate, and individuals with 5-10 generations of full sibling pairings are not uncommon.

Is this a bad thing? Well its difficult to answer this, as the arguments in both directions can appear convincing. In general terms inbreeding depression is caused by fixation of deleterious ressesive alleles. This becomes a problem when the effective population size (or the genepool) is reduced to only individuals which carry this negative ressesive, thus leading to all offspring sharing it. The chances of this happening increase with successive generations of line breeding. However, if the negative allele creates a clear phenotypic character in homozygous individuals which carry it, then it it very likely to be removed from the breeding project, and the at the least a great amount of care will be taken when breeding from the parent in the future to avoid further homozygous individuals.

With all this in mind, we come to the question of paper work avoiding either inbreeding, or probably most correctly further inbreeding in the hope of avoiding inbreeding depression.

In the simplist of terms yes, providing paperwork will allow people to know the parentage of individuals, and allow them to make an informed choice about who they breed their animal to (siblings, non-sibling trait carriers etc....), and in this sense paper work is diserable. However, in order for this to make a difference to the effective population size (or the quality of the genepool) you would need a larger geneology for both animals.

With this in mind, it could be consider advantagous for all highly line bred individuals to be only bred with wild caught individuals (bare with me, I know this is not practical, or even legal...), as they are incredibly unlikely to be fixed for the same deleterious alleles, and so will strengthen the genepool. So why can't you apply the same principle to animals from other breeders, does it have to be WC. The answer to this is, yes you can, BUT the total genepool/ effective population size of bearded dragons in captivity is actually very small. This means that breeding any two individuals together will give you a higher chance of becoming homozygous at a ressesive locus than you would expect by random chance. The reason for this is that all dragons currently in captivity, come from a small number of WC individuals (relative to the wild effective pop. size), that have been bred extensively.

So why is this important, well this in essense means that the majority of pairings will have the possibility of leading to becoming homozygous, and there fore can be considered inbreeding.

I suspect I have either gone at a slight tangent here, or given too much explanation, but I think this information is needed to answer the question fully. IF paper work serves to prevent an individual from breeding two dragons of F&I origin (or any other line breeders animals) of the same line bred trait, together, then this could be seen as benificial. However this would depend on your view point, I guess. I'm on the fence, with no real feeling either way. However, in order for this system to be truely effective every breeder would have to have paper work, in essence a stud book.

If you were to start a stud book for F&I origin dragons that would be a different thing all together. However you would not be able to simply discount pairings that were not done by you. It would have to include all animals that:

A) are F&I breeding stock
B) came directly from F&I
C) subsequently bred from at least one F&I parent

This would allow all animals to be traced back, and inbreeding depression related problems to be identified to individuals.

Andy


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Inbreeding is actually an interesting topic with regards to the whole 'pure' debate, as you know line bred traits are created from selecting individuals which express a certain character to the greatest extent, and breeding them with either an individual with similar character expression or one of the parents (typically the male). The intensity of the desired trait is usually directly correlated with the number of generations it has taken to isolate, and individuals with 5-10 generations of full sibling pairings are not uncommon.
> 
> Is this a bad thing? Well its difficult to answer this, as the arguments in both directions can appear convincing. In general terms inbreeding depression is caused by fixation of deleterious ressesive alleles. This becomes a problem when the effective population size (or the genepool) is reduced to only individuals which carry this negative ressesive, thus leading to all offspring sharing it. The chances of this happening increase with successive generations of line breeding. However, if the negative allele creates a clear phenotypic character in homozygous individuals which carry it, then it it very likely to be removed from the breeding project, and the at the least a great amount of care will be taken when breeding from the parent in the future to avoid further homozygous individuals.
> 
> ...


wow god i love your rants:lol2:
i think a stud book would be a good thing
but thats not going to work ,most people would not be botherd with the paperwork and time and typing that would take[i mite be wrong]. the best i can do on that is probley give them the pairing going back 3 gen , but as you say if thay all keep a stud book as i do for my dragons then this mite be a good thing

well paper work mite be ok then or at least helpfull in breeding

and dont worry about the rants i love to read them cheers mark


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I not sure I would call that a rant, more a full explanation, but OK. My point(s) however would still come back to the my original arguements, to consider something 'pure F&I' when it is infact F'X' from dragons originally bred by F&I is not factually correct, this then means that questioning whether the offspring of someones dragons are 'pure F&I' is moot. Having a certificate from the breeder CAN be very helpful for a number of reasons, but not having one does not mean the parents are not what they are claimed to be. In fairness there should be not judge, jury and executioner for those who suggest their dragons are from F&I lines. I will add at this point that I'm not suggesting you have ever performed this role, my first real contact with this matter was this thread...

Kind regards,
Andy


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## lefty (Jun 2, 2008)

this is turning into a good read. i think the idea of a stud book would be very benificial to breeding prodjects. 

wouldnt a copy of the parents papers and a copy of your own paper work be enough? the only reason i ask is that it seems to me that the purpose of the paper work has been over shadowed by wanting proof that dragons bred by some one else are infact from a F&I lines for selling purposes. i always thought that the paper work was there as a guide to what line your dragon came from. if you sell dragons that you have bred surly you would want to give your own paper work / birth certificate and state that they came from F&I dragons that you bought and then bred yourself.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I not sure I would call that a rant, more a full explanation, but OK. My point(s) however would still come back to the my original arguements, to consider something 'pure F&I' when it is infact F'X' from dragons originally bred by F&I is not factually correct, this then means that questioning whether the offspring of someones dragons are 'pure F&I' is moot. Having a certificate from the breeder CAN be very helpful for a number of reasons, but not having one does not mean the parents are not what they are claimed to be. In fairness there should be not judge, jury and executioner for those who suggest their dragons are from F&I lines. I will add at this point that I'm not suggesting you have ever performed this role, my first real contact with this matter was this thread...
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andy


so if you were me
part of F&I how would you stop the name being used by a breeder that 
has no f&i , that just wonts to make money from useing the name???

as this seems to be my main problem ///


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## Tung Chung (Apr 10, 2009)

woodrott said:


> so if you were me
> part of F&I how would you stop the name being used by a breeder that
> has no f&i , that just wonts to make money from useing the name???
> 
> as this seems to be my main problem ///


I think it's all to do with money at the end of the day... quote from another thread which applies here too...



Tung Chung said:


> I don't understand it too and don't understand why such the debate with F&I?
> 
> Say if I got two X morph alphadragonz with paperwork and bread them. I wouldn't sell the offspring as X morph Alphadragonz's dragons would I? I would sell them as my own brand so to speak and just state where the parents came from. Like if you get married and changed your surname..... you don't normally call your kids by your maiden name do you?
> 
> Simple fact is people just do it for money and as means of getting an extra buck. If it was someone who prides their dragons they would sell it as <enter name here> dragons.... ie. their own dragons


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

lefty said:


> this is turning into a good read. i think the idea of a stud book would be very benificial to breeding prodjects.
> 
> wouldnt a copy of the parents papers and a copy of your own paper work be enough? the only reason i ask is that it seems to me that the purpose of the paper work has been over shadowed by wanting proof that dragons bred by some one else are infact from a F&I lines for selling purposes. i always thought that the paper work was there as a guide to what line your dragon came from. if you sell dragons that you have bred surly you would want to give your own paper work / birth certificate and state that they came from F&I dragons that you bought and then bred yourself.


well this is where we started but people seem to be unhappy with it??


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## lefty (Jun 2, 2008)

Tung Chung said:


> I think it's all to do with money at the end of the day... quote from another thread which applies here too...


your quote is pretty much what im trying to say. when my dragons breed i will be selling them as my dragons but i will give info on the parents and in caes where i know the granparents. i wouldnt want it any other way as they are my dragons and will be proud to put my name on them. the money thing comes up alot. its ashame really as they are pets at the end of the day not a comodity.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

lefty said:


> your quote is pretty much what im trying to say. when my dragons breed i will be selling them as my dragons but i will give info on the parents and in caes where i know the granparents. i wouldnt want it any other way as they are my dragons and will be proud to put my name on them. the money thing comes up alot. its ashame really as they are pets at the end of the day not a comodity.


 I agree they are pets first BUT how do pets come into being.. they are not all produced by small time keepers who do it as a hobby...

MANY people breed as a business.. i dont but some do.. so what should happen there..


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## lefty (Jun 2, 2008)

sparkle said:


> I agree they are pets first BUT how do pets come into being.. they are not all produced by small time keepers who do it as a hobby...
> 
> MANY people breed as a business.. i dont but some do.. so what should happen there..


good point but its going off the subject again. let me put it another way. there are too many people that are small hobbiest that are interested in the monetry return rather than the dragons well being. dont get me wrong theres loads of people about that breed amazing dragons and really look after them well and produce stunning hatchlings and sell them as their dragons and then there are others that try to jump on the band wagon and use the name of the breeder they got the dragons from. if you inform the buyer of the heratiage of the said dragon surly you would want to take credit for the dragon you had bred


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## reptile boy (Apr 7, 2009)

wat a argumentive thread i see people going no were with this and still be sticken with there guns on wat they know :whistling2:seems like every one is tryin to compare whos best and knows wats wat just my views of this thread :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Right , i have had a drink or two and am p:censor:d but i will say this. 

I have bought and am buying my dragons for the long term. My plan is to buy top dragons which i believe with the help of mark i can do. we are in it for the long run and with selective breeding and carefully selecting holdbacks from our babies we will in the future develope our bloodlines to produce some top colours. It takes a long time to get a reputation as fire and ice have and people on here having a go must realise how long they have been at it to produce such colours. We hope to do the same but we will keep our dragons at the highest standard. People who think they are going to make a massive profit from doing this are wrong as the outgoings are the same as the money that is made if the dragons are fed correct. 

Hopefully in the future we will be able to offer people some exellent colours and are just in it for the fun. 
Keep up the good work fire and ice and mark.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

lefty said:


> good point but its going off the subject again. let me put it another way. there are too many people that are small hobbiest that are interested in the monetry return rather than the dragons well being. dont get me wrong theres loads of people about that breed amazing dragons and really look after them well and produce stunning hatchlings and sell them as their dragons and then there are others that try to jump on the band wagon and use the name of the breeder they got the dragons from. if you inform the buyer of the heratiage of the said dragon surly you would want to take credit for the dragon you had bred


 
Well I dont breed bearded dragons... I do however breed crested geckos. However if none ever bred I would still keep them as pets as I dont actually need the money. The animals welfare should come first irrrespective of whether you breed ONE or ONE hundred upwards.

However sadly this wont happen in many cases. I spend whatever is requuired on vet bills to keep my whole collection safe and well. Many people I agree see animals as a quick and easy way to make money but thankfully I dont.

I dont understand your last comment. In what way do you mean take credit. I find it difficult to understand how anyone unless they belong to Fire and Ice USA or UK can call a dragon a Fire and Ice produced dragon. It may have F&I parents but they themselves are NOT the breeder called Fire and Ice.

I own crested geckos from Pangea and other American breeders but I dont call them pangea bred. What I can mention in passing IF I want to is that hatchlings were from Pangea parents.. or repashy bred parents but really that doesnt mean they will be any nicer. I have carefulyl chosen the brightest colours for my breeding projects and hope the babies produced will reflect this. What I dont say is Pangea Hatchlings or Repashy hatchlings. 

That would be VERY misleading I think.

I imported a Fire and Ice super citrus female collectors quality a while back now. If I HAD bred her I would be able to state... Mother of hatchlings imported from Fire and Ice. I had paperwork direct from Terri at Fire and Ice. I however would NOT have called any hatchlings I had Fire and Ice whether both parents were from there or not. Thats my personal stand point. I would however mention that the babies were from parents I had purchased from Fire and Ice.

Also there are different levels of fire and ice. The cheaper quality colours are simply not as bright or intense.. you DO get what you pay for.

Not all beardies just because it says fire and ice will be as nice as one another thats blatantly obvious when you see some of them and compare.

Anyway I am all for breeding beautiful animals with the most gorgeous bright colours, as long as they are diversely bred and healthy. I have spent years collecting the crested gecko collection I have now as I wanted to specialise in intense reds and super dalmations and creams . I understand why people jump on the Fire and Ice bandwagon it seems the ONLY one people get away with doing.

You dont see it done much in other species. I would potentially mention when selling any crested gecko babies I had where the parents were from IF i knew but i would not abuse the use of that breeders name.


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## luke86 (Aug 2, 2009)

i live in south wales and am looking for a fire and ice dragon or something of simular colour wher can io get 1


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

sparkle said:


> Well I dont breed bearded dragons... I do however breed crested geckos. However if none ever bred I would still keep them as pets as I dont actually need the money. The animals welfare should come first irrrespective of whether you breed ONE or ONE hundred upwards.
> 
> However sadly this wont happen in many cases. I spend whatever is requuired on vet bills to keep my whole collection safe and well. Many people I agree see animals as a quick and easy way to make money but thankfully I dont.
> 
> ...


hi hun how are you??

F&I would love it if breeders used there own name and then had a sub heading ,useing F&I

god my life would be so easy

as andy at hades dose

i am trying my best ,but there are people[ im shaw ]that just like to stir 

hes one just look at it this way, what would you say if i sold under your name[not haveing a go hun its just an example]

so lets say your called [sparkle geckos] and when you go on the forum

im there saying sparkle geckos for sale what would you think???

i dont think its right ??? do you

what would you do if you were me???

also nice to here from you hun:flrt::flrt:


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## byron1987 (May 7, 2009)

"""what would you say if i sold under your name 
so lets say your called [sparkle geckos] and when you go on the forum

im there saying sparkle geckos for sale what would you think???

i dont think its right ??? do you

what would you do if you were me??? """



would not getting a coppie right on the name sort that 1 out :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## steve_3125 (May 20, 2009)

sparkle said:


> Well I dont breed bearded dragons... I do however breed crested geckos. However if none ever bred I would still keep them as pets as I dont actually need the money. The animals welfare should come first irrrespective of whether you breed ONE or ONE hundred upwards.
> 
> However sadly this wont happen in many cases. I spend whatever is requuired on vet bills to keep my whole collection safe and well. Many people I agree see animals as a quick and easy way to make money but thankfully I dont.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what i said on another thread about fire and ice
SIMPLES!! : victory:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

woodrott said:


> hi hun how are you??
> 
> F&I would love it if breeders used there own name and then had a sub heading ,useing F&I
> 
> ...


I dont think its right either.. it seems to say the least odd...
and I dont feel youre havnig a go LOL...

if i was producing for example consistent scarlet red crested geckos with stunning super dalmation spots.. or bright neon orange super dals . both of which i am hoping to have hatchlings of soon.. I would WANT to say that I bred them and noone else. As I said mentioning where the parents are from intially is fine but to call them a specific breeders NAME seems... hmm lt me think of the word.. unfair and odd. I hope to have wating list and have the parents of each hatchling availbale for either viewing or pictures of them on any sale threads or the new site that we are hoping to have built. That way people can see the lineage and choose colours and morph paterns they really love.

Now of course its also about confusion regarding etiquette here. Some have it some dont. Many breeders will USE the name Fire and Ice and not even so much as have ANYTHING linked with them whatsoever. Some use it if ONE dragon is from fire and Ice parentage and some abuse it totally.

If someone started calling their cresties Sparkles Cresties not only would I be peed off , I would be worried my own standards would be brought down if they did not adhere to the strict cleanliness, feeding regimes and husbandy in general that I have. i do not want others marring my high standards and if this seems snooty so be it. I have seen so many threads on here with people breeding cresties underweight, with MBD or in general making excuses not to go to vets etc id be furious if they used my breeding name and i was brought into their issues because of it.

I would also be concerned they would not deal with their customers the way I do. I offer one to one contact about ANY issues or questions. I spend a lot of time helping and explaining things to anyone ( and that goes for people who buy from me and those who dont)

If someone who bought from me out of the blue started stating their hatchlings were Sparkles cresties or Lynns cresties.. (well unless there real name was Lynn LOL)...Id be annoyed yes. if they also didnt adopt good husbandry for whatever reason then bred cresties from myself and called them Sparkles Cresties you can sure as damn it i would not be a happy camper in the slightest. Theres a host of reasons why if a breeder has a name they have used for years it should not be replicated as if the NEW breeder is part of fire and Ice. 

I have seen Woodrots set ups and they are scrupulously clean. He travels over to see Terri at Fire and Ice in the states and is the Uk counterpart. He is therefore Fire and Ice UK agreed by Terri as it stands I do not know anyone else in the Uk that is Fire and Ice connected in this way. At least I think this is how it works correct me if I am wrong.

Andy at hades dragons is a perfect example of a brilliant breeder ( and RFUK moderator) who breeds stunning morph dragons , many whom are from Fire and Ice but does not use or abuse the name to sell or gain higher status. His own breeding name is well respected and regarded in the reptile community.

I have yet to set up a website or choose a name for my crested gecko breeding programme. However I am in partnershp with one other keeper/breeder and we will be working on that within the next few months. Since we are hoping to produce some really gorgeous intensely bright and heavily patterned crestie morphs I can imagine we would be annoyed if others used our name in the longer term to jump on a bandwagon as the phrase goes. This does not mean that the cresties other peopel produce are not as nice and their husbandry as good however it still doesnt give anyone a right ME included to nick other breeders names and use them to help sales.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

sparkle said:


> I dont think its right either.. it seems to say the least odd...
> and I dont feel youre havnig a go LOL...
> 
> if i was producing for example consistent scarlet red crested geckos with stunning super dalmation spots.. or bright neon orange super dals . both of which i am hoping to have hatchlings of soon.. I would WANT to say that I bred them and noone else. As I said mentioning where the parents are from intially is fine but to call them a specific breeders NAME seems... hmm lt me think of the word.. unfair and odd. I hope to have wating list and have the parents of each hatchling availbale for either viewing or pictures of them on any sale threads or the new site that we are hoping to have built. That way people can see the lineage and choose colours and morph paterns they really love.
> ...


 
nice rant hun a very good read love it:lol2:

your i think the first one that totaly think my way:2thumb:

terri thinks ive been to soft over here in the uk
but shes backed me so far????

in the usa if breeders used the name F&I as over here
theres a little word in there shell like, and if that fails

well ill see you in court

thay just dont do it

if the problem cant be sorted out between us[all the breeders in the uk] 

then terri will step in
theres one or two things in the pipe line, but dont wont to go that far [yet]

lets see how this goes for a few weeks im shaw we can sort somethink out


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

lefty said:


> this is turning into a good read. i think the idea of a stud book would be very benificial to breeding prodjects.
> 
> wouldnt a copy of the parents papers and a copy of your own paper work be enough? the only reason i ask is that it seems to me that the purpose of the paper work has been over shadowed by wanting proof that dragons bred by some one else are infact from a F&I lines for selling purposes. i always thought that the paper work was there as a guide to what line your dragon came from. if you sell dragons that you have bred surly you would want to give your own paper work / birth certificate and state that they came from F&I dragons that you bought and then bred yourself.


i see that your not replying to my pm's?
oh youve started something now pal :2thumb:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

woodrott said:


> nice rant hun a very good read love it:lol2:
> 
> your i think the first one that totaly think my way:2thumb:
> terri thinks ive been to soft over here in the uk
> ...


 


I am well known for my sensible rants.. sadly I am also well known for my non-sensible ones..

Hopefully that one was sensible LOL

: victory:


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

so if somebody had a problem with for example a health problem with a dragon they brought and had only had it for a few months what would you do as a breeder?
ie replace, refund, part refund ect?


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## Anna89 (Sep 18, 2008)

Living Rain said:


> Hi Fran,
> All i can say is very very sorry and i have sent you a pm. If things like that where know at the time i would never have sent her to you honestly.
> I have spoken about this today with Mark and unfortunately as with nature there is a percentage that go wrong, but if eating was a problem the dragon would go nowhere.
> Please accept my appologies.
> ...


 

Steve - could you please reply to my pm's and messages, it appears that you are ignoring me and I really need to know the outcome. Thank you.

Anna. 

(yes this is relevant!)


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> so if somebody had a problem with for example a health problem with a dragon they brought and had only had it for a few months what would you do as a breeder?
> ie replace, refund, part refund ect?


first i would ask whats the problem???

second how long its had the problem???

standard questions

if you remember i would of seid to you as ive seid to everyone
any problems , any problems at all call me straight away 

if thay dont call you cannot help

people must keep there breeder in the loop ie 
if theres a problem 2 days or 2 months after getting there beardie

then the breeder mite be able to help????
or if its a problem with the breeding stock where the baby came from
try and fix that

every problem is diffrent. so every out come is diffrent


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## stevenw (Feb 28, 2009)

i thought this was simple ie 

i buy 2 fire and ice import them from usa have paperwork etc 

i breed these and sell the babies as following .... bearded dragon babies parents from fire and ice paperwork available 

... i then sell one and hand customer paperwork headed for example ..my beardies ltd .. showing parents and lineage i then show my paperwork for my 2 fire and ice if cust wishes this is all traceable and im only stating parents as fire and ice ... 

EVERYONES HAPPY .. or am i wrong ?

ie fire and ice is only a breeder not a specific morph


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## Nottingham Dragons (Feb 19, 2007)

Well thats how we are doing it. We will have our own paperwork for Nottingham Dragons with parents, visual colour, morph, date of birth, date of purchase, cost of dragon and so on. We have fire and ice dragons direct from america and we also have what i will call GG fire and ice UK which are marks babies from his breeds. People are able to see all paperwork for our dragons if they wish and it can be confirmed if needed. This seems very very simple to me. It doesnt just work with fire and ice. We will be doing the same with our dragons dens, kk chameleon dragons etc... So everyone can see where they come from and it reduces the risk of inbreeding and should generally improve the british bloodlines. In theory anyway, lol

If anyone has a better way to do it i am all ears but if everyone took this route and made it simple it would stop a lot of arguing. 

Thanx

NOTTINGHAM DRAGONS


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## MadFerret! (Aug 3, 2009)

woodrott said:


> terri thinks ive been to soft over here in the uk
> but shes backed me so far????
> 
> in the usa if breeders used the name F&I as over here
> ...


So is the brand name fire & ice registered and copyrighted in the uk?

For example, mainstream shops would not be able to sell a watch as a Rolex if it wasnt authentic as that would be infringement of the copyright itself, right? Therefore legal action would be possible

I understand the point you make to a degree and can see how other people selling normal beardies for an inflated price under the F+I brand name would be frustrating, but I cant see how these threats (above) can be anything but empty unless you are legally protected against occurences of this nature.

Would you really be prepared to take legal action against a small time breeder selling on dragons as FI? I dont think it would be viable, and besides this I dont think your case would stand up in court. What would you do, print off pages from an online forum and present them in court over a small time breeder using your brand name? What judgement would you expect a court to give in a case like that?

I understand both sides of the argument. I can see how you want to protect your name, but i can also see how your attitude can be perceived as arrogant or belittling/muddying the sales of other breeders who may well provide a very good service. Im not saying its intentional, i can just see why people are getting that impression from the way you come across (this is based solely on my personal observations). IMO if you are confident that your dragons are superior to other breeders then why are you so bothered about commenting on the services they provide? Let the quality of your stock speak for itself. I think Andy (glasgowgecko) has raised some very valid points which havent really been fully addressed either due to your misunderstanding, or the fact that you may wish to sidestep what he is saying. Anyways, thats not something i'll go into, if Andy wants to do that its his decision.

I have no doubt your dragons are very good judging by the feedback you get and they look great in the pictures, so Im not having a go. I hope your business thrives and its great to see so many colourful little dragons. Just my two cents (and quite a bit more  ) after reading through so many pages i thought it would be a shame not to post


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

MadFerret! said:


> So is the brand name fire & ice registered and copyrighted in the uk?
> 
> *Trademark exists for fire&ice and aston martin own it i believe. also there is no fire&ice registration on compaines house *
> 
> ...


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> MadFerret! said:
> 
> 
> > So is the brand name fire & ice registered and copyrighted in the uk?
> ...


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## r0ad1e (Aug 8, 2008)

Fully agreed 110% - well said! 

ps - prepare to have tricia kick your ass!!



lefty said:


> i cant beleive that so many of you have doubted mark and his dragons. the simple fact is he is the uk rep for fire and ice dragons. he knows the ins and outs and isnt the sort that holds back info. he will speak for hours about this little fellas and he knows a hell of a lot and is more than willing to share. as for paper work. im doing my own paper work for my dragons and on there will be the pictures of the gran parents and a pic of the parents. then a space for weight of hatchling, date of birth, length and the names of both parents. i would sell them as fire and ice cross G&G, or G&G cross unknow or fire and ice pure. i think some people think too much about the money involved with top of the line beardies. it shouldnt and isnt the maqin purpose with woodrott. he has other things to do that seem to be very profitable other than the dragons. infact iv heard him personally put his dragons above his missus [she will kill him for that lmao!!] at the end of the day hes offering a service that not many other breeders do. he wants to help all people and that have dragons, not just people who have bouhgt from him. i will not buy from anyone else:no1:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stevenw said:


> i thought this was simple ie
> 
> i buy 2 fire and ice import them from usa have paperwork etc
> 
> ...


sounds right all good:2thumb::2thumb:

this is what ive been trying to say,,, well put:2thumb::2thumb:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Nottingham Dragons said:


> Well thats how we are doing it. We will have our own paperwork for Nottingham Dragons with parents, visual colour, morph, date of birth, date of purchase, cost of dragon and so on. We have fire and ice dragons direct from america and we also have what i will call GG fire and ice UK which are marks babies from his breeds. People are able to see all paperwork for our dragons if they wish and it can be confirmed if needed. This seems very very simple to me. It doesnt just work with fire and ice. We will be doing the same with our dragons dens, kk chameleon dragons etc... So everyone can see where they come from and it reduces the risk of inbreeding and should generally improve the british bloodlines. In theory anyway, lol
> 
> If anyone has a better way to do it i am all ears but if everyone took this route and made it simple it would stop a lot of arguing.
> 
> ...


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

MadFerret! said:


> So is the brand name fire & ice registered and copyrighted in the uk?
> 
> For example, mainstream shops would not be able to sell a watch as a Rolex if it wasnt authentic as that would be infringement of the copyright itself, right? Therefore legal action would be possible
> 
> ...


 
your right we hav,nt registered the name in the uk.

we didnt think there would be these problems???

as i would say 99% of other beardie breeders hav,nt

no one else seems to have the problem with other breeders useing there name

so why do we????

most people seem to be ok with the way it works and understand what im doing and why

all we are doing at the end of the day is trying to protect our name and people that have invested there money in our dragons

as for the arrogance yes it mite sound like i am on here my typing is,nt good:blush: 

but in my defence is there any one on here who,s met me say im arrogant
hope this dos,nt open the flood gates???

again most people are happy with the way we are doing things

and other breederd are policeing it better than i am 

there is allways a few that dont seem to understand but i think we are getting through to 90% of them:2thumb:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> MadFerret! said:
> 
> 
> > So is the brand name fire & ice registered and copyrighted in the uk?
> ...


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> Apocalyptic Dragons said:
> 
> 
> > *sorry i did get it wrong these is fire&ice also fire&iceuk and several other fire&ice limited companies *
> ...


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

r0ad1e said:


> Fully agreed 110% - well said!
> 
> ps - prepare to have tricia kick your ass!!


hi there

dont worry she kicks my ass all the time

long time no hear ,,hows the kids getting on???

still eating you out of house and home??

how are you getting on with the vits??


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

woodrott said:


> Apocalyptic Dragons said:
> 
> 
> > dave i dont think anyone would do that as the name would be no good to them
> ...


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Falkor-Dragons said:


> woodrott said:
> 
> 
> > dave buying 1 off me :no1:
> ...


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*I agree with what you say but again as said way earlier on on this thread about scammers they could easily register the name and sell how many dragons in a short time and then move onto something else by the time you may find out the damage is done and people have been ripped of.*

*if i am unsure about a company i always check compaines house *
*however i dont know how this would work for breeders but you have the best info as terri is registered.*

*the name would be no good to me of course !!!!!! i have my own which we work hard to keep as a reputable name as others do.*

*if you and terri were to secure the name over here it would stop alot of hassle for yourself and terri and breeders alike.*

*at the end of the day terri has worked damn hard for her name and reputation as i am sure you are. wouldnt it be better to protect it if it is possible. and save all of this agro.*

*Dave*




woodrott said:


> Apocalyptic Dragons said:
> 
> 
> > dave i dont think anyone would do that as the name would be no good to them
> ...


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *I agree with what you say but again as said way earlier on on this thread about scammers they could easily register the name and sell how many dragons in a short time and then move onto something else by the time you may find out the damage is done and people have been ripped of.*
> 
> *if i am unsure about a company i always check compaines house *
> *however i dont know how this would work for breeders but you have the best info as terri is registered.*
> ...


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*will watch lol*


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## stevenw (Feb 28, 2009)

the more i think about it the dafter all this becomes .... 

for one everyone agrees fire and ice is a breeder not a morph ...so why buy from anywhere else ?

two why spend ALL your money on dragons to give it someone elses name ..? 

all fire and ice did was really start early and well riding the growing public intrest ... 

Your buying the colours not the breeder if you look hard enough you can find other breeders with dragons of equal quality ... so its simple you judge not only on the dragon but on the breeder also and prob price too 


soon people will realise this and all the hype over F&I will subside unless they keep with the times and one step ahead as the have undoubtedly done thus far.

People think dragons are a Quick buck this is not the case after overheads i dont breed them but i may in future but i dont see this as a way to make a living ... I want to create my own Dragons wether i use F&I or rodneys discount reps to assist with the creations of my own under my name ..i wouldnt not use F&I or Nottingham Dragons name for that matter to try and enhance the PRICE of my own CLUTCH . To put it blunt i would Charge what i saw fit for the market of that standard at that time not because mum and dad are from so and so ...

rant over:whistling2:

P.s Sorry gav used you as example but i had two fantastic dragons from you so im sure you know what i mean :2thumb:


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## mikeliverpool (Aug 5, 2009)

*f&i*

hi just woundering how much are these f&i dragons and what morphs/colours do they come in


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

stevenw said:


> the more i think about it the dafter all this becomes ....
> 
> for one everyone agrees fire and ice is a breeder not a morph ...so why buy from anywhere else ?
> 
> ...


so true :2thumb:

nice rant:flrt:
and i think gav will be fine with that:whistling2:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

mikeliverpool said:


> hi just woundering how much are these f&i dragons and what morphs/colours do they come in


try this

www.fireandicedragons.com


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## dden (Aug 8, 2009)

While I did not come to this forum to bash other breeders, I do have a few points to make.
*First, no matter how much sombody claims that they started a certain dragon morph, they all came from somebody else.* I started Dragon's Den Herpetoculture over 15 years ago and most of my bredder stock came from Sandfire (Sandfire, Pastel) or Weis reptiles (German Giants). 

Terri at Fire & Ice called me 6 or 7 years ago saying that she was considering getting into breeding bearded dragons and asking for information about breeding, husbandry, various morphs, etc. I sold her the Leucistic, Blood, and Sunburst dragons that she breeds now. She later added other blood to the Sunburst dragons and cleed them "Citrus". 

The Leucistics were actually first produced by Luke Yeomans in England. You may remember him from his company called Dinosaur Nutrition. I imported Heterozygous animals from him and produced the first Leucistics in the US the following year. 

I have been exporting Bearded Dragons to the UK for nearly 15 years and I can't recall anyone telling me they were unhappy with the dragons I sent them (including you Mark). There are plenty of people in the US to get dragons from including Fire & Ice, Sandfire, Bloodbank, and my favorite, Dragon's Den!)...just find somebody who has what you want and buy them, but remember: None of us developed the first bearded dragon...we all got them from somebody else.
Kevin Dunne
Dragon's Den Herpetoculture


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## Dave W (May 6, 2009)

*that sure as hell clears a few things up.*

*you are right buy what you like from who you like .*

*we look forward to ordering once we have a few more people on board *
*if anyone is interested please pm us.*

*Dave & Amy*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

dden said:


> While I did not come to this forum to bash other breeders, I do have a few points to make.
> *First, no matter how much sombody claims that they started a certain dragon morph, they all came from somebody else.* I started Dragon's Den Herpetoculture over 15 years ago and most of my bredder stock came from Sandfire (Sandfire, Pastel) or Weis reptiles (German Giants).
> 
> Terri at Fire & Ice called me 6 or 7 years ago saying that she was considering getting into breeding bearded dragons and asking for information about breeding, husbandry, various morphs, etc. I sold her the Leucistic, Blood, and Sunburst dragons that she breeds now. She later added other blood to the Sunburst dragons and cleed them "Citrus".
> ...


hi there kevin 

its nice to here from you ,over here in the uk:2thumb:
i keep getting your emails nice to see what your selling:2thumb:
sorry if not having any more dragons from you :whistling2:
but as you know im with F&I now[your the enemy??[ joke]
this thread is going world wide,,,nice

ok first i dont think F&I have ever claimed that thay started any dragon morph,, as you say thats just silly

most of this thread is about the F&I name and how we can protect it and the people that buy our dragons from the not so nice breeders just using the name F&I to make a quick buck

its nice to have a bit of history about the US breeding thanks for that:2thumb:
terri has had dragons from all over the us and the rest of the world
some she breeds from some she will reject as the babys are butt ugly
but this is part of breeding, as you will well know

there are a few posts on here about importing and your name has been said along with most of the breeders in the usa
do you agree when importing dragons or for that any reptiles you need to do your home work??
check all the details [paperwork]
then check again
make sure you fully understand what you are paying for[dragons and export/import costs] 
as the usa isn't just down the road. 
if you dont like it you cant change it the next day

this is why i said make sure you get what you are paying for??? (quality of dragon & export import costs)

well kevin if you have never had any problems with any of you dragons thats good?? [you know about mine but i didn't moan] 
and if all your imports went off with out any hicups. well will you export for me please then:2thumb:
as you know you cannot keep everyone happy all the time as this thread shows.
it is fun trying :devil:
i hope the emails you have been getting from the uk didn't waist to much of your time:devil:

thanks again for your post keep them com'in:2thumb:
speek to you soon
cheers mark


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## Falkor-Dragons (May 15, 2008)

Apocalyptic Dragons said:


> *that sure as hell clears a few things up.*
> 
> *you are right buy what you like from who you like .*
> 
> ...


good job im on board :2thumb:


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