# BIG YELLOW GECKO - Delivery



## byglady (Jun 9, 2007)

We would like to thank Kirsten for bringing this to our attention, as explained earlier the person who normally packages and arranges the couriering service for us is not available at this present time. Over the last three weeks we have been using the services of somebody else, who was recommended to us by a third party. We obviously will not be using this service again. We were not aware that the geckos where being sent through the royal mail services.
We will be in contact with all the people this has affected in due course. We apologise for the delay in answering the thread but as we all work full time and have the normally family commitments. As Kirsten stated in her thread, she was contacted the minute we became aware of the problem. 
We are not professional breeders, we are hobbist who always put the welfare of our animals first. We hope to have the continued support of all the people on this forum and the new friends we have made through the various shows. 
We hope this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible and to everyone’s satisfaction, so we can get back to what we love and enjoy which is breeding geckos and meeting new likeminded people. 
Sorry for the long thread. Thank you for your time and understanding in this unfortunate matter. 

BIG YELLOW GECKO


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

Fair enough lol
I hope you get the money back you would have paid for the ahem "courier" since whoever you were using pocketed extra cash.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

byglady said:


> We would like to thank Kirsten for bringing this to our attention, as explained earlier the person who normally packages and arranges the couriering service for us is not available at this present time. Over the last three weeks we have been using the services of somebody else, who was recommended to us by a third party. We obviously will not be using this service again. We were not aware that the geckos where being sent through the royal mail services.
> We will be in contact with all the people this has affected in due course. We apologise for the delay in answering the thread but as we all work full time and have the normally family commitments. As Kirsten stated in her thread, she was contacted the minute we became aware of the problem.
> We are not professional breeders, we are hobbist who always put the welfare of our animals first. We hope to have the continued support of all the people on this forum and the new friends we have made through the various shows.
> We hope this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible and to everyone’s satisfaction, so we can get back to what we love and enjoy which is breeding geckos and meeting new likeminded people.
> ...


 
I am sorry but you said you will contact "all the people this has affected".

Surely you must have been informed by buyers the day your geckos arrived.So i take it they were all sent out on exactly the same day for there to be "all"?? as i find it hard to believe that customers would not have been outraged and complained straight away.The way you have written it makes it sound like it happened several times.

Apologies if i have read it wrong.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

byglady said:


> We would like to thank Kirsten for bringing this to our attention, as explained earlier the person who normally packages and arranges the couriering service for us is not available at this present time. Over the last three weeks we have been using the services of somebody else, who was recommended to us by a third party. We obviously will not be using this service again. We were not aware that the geckos where being sent through the royal mail services.
> We will be in contact with all the people this has affected in due course. We apologise for the delay in answering the thread but as we all work full time and have the normally family commitments. As Kirsten stated in her thread, she was contacted the minute we became aware of the problem.
> We are not professional breeders, we are hobbist who always put the welfare of our animals first. We hope to have the continued support of all the people on this forum and the new friends we have made through the various shows.
> We hope this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible and to everyone’s satisfaction, so we can get back to what we love and enjoy which is breeding geckos and meeting new likeminded people.
> ...


Are you going to be reporting the people who did this then since they have brought your name into disrepute and acted ilegally..

If not why not.. since you say you have your animals best interests at heart surely you along with everyone else here would want them reporting.... And since it was not you who sent these animals by royal mail you wil have no issue helping with any enquiries would u? So really Kirsten can still report this THIRD party without it affecting you in any way and I am sure you wil be perfectly fine with that.

I would suggest unless you are willing to do this then for many on here it seems VERY fishy that it has happened more than once months apart .. so that certainly does not cover you for the instances BEFORE these 3 weeks. I wil not go into the details i know about here but if you wish to PM me I am more than happy to discuss with you several instances over the last 12 months I know about .

Just a thought.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

sparkle said:


> Are you going to be reporting the people who did this then since they have brought your name into disrepute and acted ilegally..
> 
> If not why not..
> 
> ...


Sparkle you have just confirmed the point i was making above. (I had no idea it happened 3 months before, sorry thats outragious!!!)

Surely if that is the case you would have learnt from it and made sure whoever you employed in future knew of the past incident and was aware that it is nothing short of cruel,illegal and under no circumstances going to happen again.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

My point is this...

if Big yellow gecko IS telling the truth she herslef along with everyone else here will want the people who sent her geckos prosecuted yes?

if she refuses to give their details to either Kirsten or the Poilce I would be seriously asking why!!


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

If you're a private hobbiest then why would someone else be packing/sending your animals for you?


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

Fangio said:


> If you're a private hobbyiest then why would someone else be packing/sending your animals for you?


 

i was thinking the same. im not here to argue im just wathcing the thread flow and see how it goes. im neither sticking up or slating byg yet

thanks daniel


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Fangio said:


> If you're a private hobbyiest then why would someone else be packing/sending your animals for you?


 
Unfortunately fangio this has happened SO many times now .. up until now the same offer has been accepted by the buyers..

A full refund for geckos plus postage IF the buyer goes no further

it will take someone refusing to accept this to STOP this..


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## platypus (Aug 27, 2007)

hollypops said:


> Sparkle you have just confirmed the point i was making above. (I had no idea it happened 3 months before, sorry thats outragious!!!)
> 
> Surely if that is the case you would have learnt from it and made sure whoever you employed in future knew of the past incident and was aware that it is nothing short of cruel,illegal and under no circumstances going to happen again.


 
I must be reading this wrong but the two incidents are totally seperate by the looks of it .


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

platypus said:


> I must be reading this wrong but the two incidents are totally seperate by the looks of it .


 
there are other incidents.. not just TWO.. do you think forumites who accept offers of full refunds for all purchases plus delivery will say no 

Most accept and dont report and assume sellers are telling the truth
now they realise its not isolated incidents and several sellers have done this MORE than once people are talking and realising they have been fed a line


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

sparkle said:


> Unfortunately fangio this has happened SO many times now .. up until now the same offer has been accepted by the buyers..
> 
> A full refund for geckos plus postage IF the buyer goes no further
> 
> it will take someone refusing to accept this to STOP this..


Maybe people it has happened to need to pm the moderators to let them know.It will either find b.y.g guilty or not guillty so to speak.

The people accepting offers ought to come forward (via pm to mods) as if it is happening it needs stopping now. Or do leos need to die in post first?


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## fran2491 (Oct 10, 2008)

i think its shocking peeps do this and get away with it, if its not down to byg as said above then y not report the third party! all a bit fishey to me, i read the other thread this mornin and was unsure what to think, but as i read on i am beggining to think it might not be down to a third party, surely more peeps would of complained having there geckos delivered by royal mail after paying for courier:bash:


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

hollypops said:


> Maybe people it has happened to need to pm the moderators to let them know.It will either find b.y.g guilty or not guillty so to speak.
> 
> The people accepting offers ought to come forward (via pm to mods) as if it is happening it needs stopping now. Or do leos need to die in post first?


 
I have tried to encourage this in the past when people have told me about the incidents but rarely do people feel confident enough to do what they see as "rock the boat" with larger more prominent sellers and breeders in this hobby.

It only takes for ONE person to be willing to speak out for others to follow.. I hope this is what happens this time


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

platypus said:


> I must be reading this wrong but the two incidents are totally seperate by the looks of it .


Unfortunately not!


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

*i am no longer happy with the excusses given to me by byg, the fact that this has happend countless times before with the packaging being the exact same, with the same excuse being given only a week ago to palomine, who tried to defend you, so acording to her you were aware of it a week ago, and yet you let this same person send out again? i think not, i will not be accepting any refunds as i will be taking this further. if you would be so kind as to supply me with the details of the third party, i will report them direct, rather than the authorities having to go through you first.

i also would advise all those affect to contact the moderators and make their cases known.
*


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

Fangio said:


> If you're a private hobbiest then why would someone else be packing/sending your animals for you?


agreed
I sell all sorts and deliver myself. If peple want to get a courier I only allow REPUTABLE couriers such as reptile taxi. But Ive never used a courier to date. Its always been either delivery/meet/collection.

I can see how the seller might have been mislead by their courier... but since it started three months ago and according to sparkle incidents over the past 12 months it does create a lot of room for questioning.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

sparkle said:


> I have tried to encourage this in the past when people have told me about the incidents but rarely do people feel confident enough to do what they see as "rock the boat" with larger more prominent sellers and breeders in this hobby.
> 
> It only takes for ONE person to be willing to speak out for others to follow.. I hope this is what happens this time


I hope keepers reading this thread who have received leos by royal mail will do the right thing.

We are here because we care about the welfare of reptiles, that means being their voice and preventing any traumas or ill treating.

You dont join a rep forum to shield dodgy dealers!! Reps should come first on this site.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Thank-you Kirsten !!!

A true reptile lover who DOES put reptile welfare first!! You are SO right to take it further, i hope you get back up from other people who have had this happen.


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## amyloveys (Jan 12, 2008)

hollypops said:


> I hope keepers reading this thread who have received leos by royal mail will do the right thing.
> 
> We are here because we care about the welfare of reptiles, that means being their voice and preventing any traumas or ill treating.
> 
> You dont join a rep forum to shield dodgy dealers!! Reps should come first on this site.



Agreed!


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## thickgiraffe (Oct 23, 2007)

Again i ahve just been reading these related threads, but it is time something was done about this. It is appaling that this should happen to any animal. If you wish to skimp on money don't keep/breed the animal's in the first place.


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## jack_rep (Sep 11, 2008)

The seller has apologised and acknowledged the mistake. Just leave if at that. Its clearly not going to occur again.

And the suggestion of prosecution is rediculous, its simply not going to happen. Its obviously not a police matter and the RSPCA arnt going to be fussed.

Whats done is done, get off the band wagon and drop it. If it continues to happen fair enough get your picth folks back out. But thats highly unlikely to happen


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

jack_rep said:


> The seller has apologised and acknowledged the mistake. Just leave if at that. Its clearly not going to occur again.
> 
> And the suggestion of prosecution is rediculous, its simply not going to happen. Its obviously not a police matter and the RSPCA arnt going to be fussed.
> 
> Whats done is done, get off the band wagon and drop it. If it continues to happen fair enough get your picth folks back out. But thats highly unlikely to happen


 

the think is, its happened several times now and its ILLEGAL to send live verterbrates from the royal mail


daniel


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

jack_rep said:


> The seller has apologised and acknowledged the mistake. Just leave if at that. Its clearly not going to occur again.
> 
> And the suggestion of prosecution is rediculous, its simply not going to happen. Its obviously not a police matter and the RSPCA arnt going to be fussed.
> 
> Whats done is done, get off the band wagon and drop it. If it continues to happen fair enough get your picth folks back out. But thats highly unlikely to happen


 
it has been continuing to happen repeatedly over a period of time, so sort it then you say, well then is now.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

jack_rep said:


> The seller has apologised and acknowledged the mistake. Just leave if at that. Its clearly not going to occur again.
> 
> And the suggestion of prosecution is rediculous, its simply not going to happen. Its obviously not a police matter and the RSPCA arnt going to be fussed.
> 
> Whats done is done, get off the band wagon and drop it. If it continues to happen fair enough get your picth folks back out. But thats highly unlikely to happen


 
Totally disagree. It is reptile keepers like you that mean this continues... ones who wont take a stand.. ones where a weak excuse and appology cut the cheese... a sorry and its all swept under the carpet... would u feel the same if it was a dog or a cat.. or is it because its a reptile it is fine...

sorry this has happened so many times with different sellers... and each time the same excuse has been given.

it is illegal .. it is wrong.. it is unfair on the animals.

Would you feel differently if the leos had died... or will it take a death to stop this...

.. I dont give a hoot about people in general if they dont stand up and fight for animal welfare ( especially ones willing to accept these repeated excuses ) they can make their own choices... these animals HAVE NO choice..


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

jack_rep said:


> The seller has apologised and acknowledged the mistake. Just leave if at that. Its clearly not going to occur again.
> 
> And the suggestion of prosecution is rediculous, its simply not going to happen. Its obviously not a police matter and the RSPCA arnt going to be fussed.
> 
> Whats done is done, get off the band wagon and drop it. If it continues to happen fair enough get your picth folks back out. But thats highly unlikely to happen


Have you read that it HAS happened time and time again? 3 months ago, last week,today, and more........


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

jack_rep said:


> The seller has apologised and acknowledged the mistake. Just leave if at that. Its clearly not going to occur again.
> 
> And the suggestion of prosecution is rediculous, its simply not going to happen. Its obviously not a police matter and the RSPCA arnt going to be fussed.
> 
> Whats done is done, get off the band wagon and drop it. If it continues to happen fair enough get your picth folks back out. But thats highly unlikely to happen


Seperate incidents over 3 months that we know of.
Other incidents reported over 12 months.... come on it IS going to happen again by the looks of it!


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## jack_rep (Sep 11, 2008)

lukendaniel said:


> the think is, its happened several times now and its ILLEGAL to send live verterbrates from the royal mail


Fine, well pop down the police station tomorow and see how far you get lol



hollypops said:


> Have you read that it HAS happened time and time again? 3 months ago, last week,today, and more........


Well i havent seen any examples of this happening previously, u would have to identify them threads.

Im not saying what has happened is right, but this linch mob attitude is hardly productive


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

jack_rep said:


> Fine, well pop down the police station tomorow and see how far you get lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


Kirsten has asked for the details of the third party to report them to the authorities for acting ilegally. That should not actually affect BYG,
if indeed it were not Big Yello Gecko who sent these animals by post then they will have no issue providing those details. Quite the opposite infact. They would be happily willing to as it was THEIR animals put at risk.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

jack_rep said:


> The seller has apologised and acknowledged the mistake. Just leave if at that. Its clearly not going to occur again.
> 
> And the suggestion of prosecution is rediculous, its simply not going to happen. Its obviously not a police matter and the RSPCA arnt going to be fussed.
> 
> Whats done is done, get off the band wagon and drop it. If it continues to happen fair enough get your picth folks back out. But thats highly unlikely to happen


Did you actually read the post? _If _everything which has been said is true, then it's impossible that BYG were unaware that this has been going on for some time and that they have continued to send animals in this way. 

If they have been misled in some way over a period of 3-12 months, then I think they need to give a bit better explanation with more detail than that given above.


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## GECKO62 (Jun 12, 2008)

i not read all the threads started about all this but i have to agree with sparkle if they had died would you feel the same way ,and to be honest with you if it had been a dog or cat or rabbit anything other than a rep then something would be done. If it happens once ok but more than once is once to many . shouldn't happen full stop ,its wrong and unforgivable to the poor gecko s.
I don't know the ins and out of all this but IMO its wrong .


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

jack_rep said:


> Fine, well pop down the police station tomorow and see how far you get lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/185664-outcome-gecko-delivered-via-royal.html


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

I have really strong views on this - which quite a few ppl already know via PM. Lots and lots of questions have the right to be answered.
In the previous thread, there is ONE cast iron example of the same situation happening in December - the Sunglow that also arrived via Royal Mail which was more than 3 weeks ago. Did this buyer get his `courier` fee reimbursed like Kirsty - or did he only have the confidence to speak up now, knowing that he isn`t the only one???
Wouldn`t you have known that your leos weren`t being sent via TNT AGES ago if their services didn`t appear on your account - after all you have to pay TNT don`t you? hadn`t you questioned why you weren`t being charged for their services that `you trusted` were being used???
Why are you selling the EXACT SAME leos as 2 totally different morphs - an albino doesn`t have black pigment, yet you offer for sale a Mack Snow as BOTH an albino mack AND a creamsicle - which one is it??? Why do you offer blizzards and patternless leos for sale that ae clearly normals - when obviously blizzards and patternless leos cost more and are for sale as such. A leo that is a normal het blizzard is still a normal and shouldn`t be sold as a blizzard or at blizzard prices.
Why are you offering for sale, selling and accepting payment for leos that are advertised as being 5/6 months old, yet only weigh in the region of 9g??? This cannot be an oversight or a mistake, as you constantly advertise on this forum and alert everyone when your website has been updated???
*You say you "love and enjoy breeding leopard geckos" YET put their care and their delivery in the hands of A THIRD PARTY that you don`t even know, who was recommended by a friend???? Do you know who sent them - YOUR leos????*
Why did the reciever of the poor leopard gecko tha arrived in the post, have to ASK for her courier money back - if it was you who contacted her? How did you become aware of the problem - didn`t she tell you?. If you were aware of the problem beforehand, then why didn`t you offer her/them their money back for the courier before all this became public knowledge??? 
That`s my 2 penneth over with for now - I`m not trying to publicly slate or shame anyone, but there are questions that DEMAND to be answered and not brushed under the carpet and forgotten about.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/247650-leos-arrived-royal-mail.html#post3289930


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Sadly this is just the sort of thing the RSPCA would have a field day with. I think they would look into things very thoroughly but they would probably use their findings in a far more damaging way than would be expected. Its the sort of ammunition they love to twist and use to discredit herp keepers in general and fuel their mission to end the public being able to keep of reptiles.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Linky clicky clicky


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## byglady (Jun 9, 2007)

There seems to be a bit of confusion, we have only not used TNT over the last 3 weeks because that has not been available to us. We are totally unaware of what the other incidents are. 

We have pm'd purpleskyes to get some clarification on this but we have not recieved a reply as of yet. 

We are very upset about this and are trying to rectify the matter as soon as possible.


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

sparkle said:


> I have tried to encourage this in the past when people have told me about the incidents but rarely do people feel confident enough to do what they see as "rock the boat" with larger more prominent sellers and breeders in this hobby.
> 
> It only takes for ONE person to be willing to speak out for others to follow.. I hope this is what happens this time


That`s EXACTLY what I have come across from those asking for advice privately in the last few months - no-one wants to rock the boat, or get jumped on by members of certain band wagons, as especially the newer ones, don`t feel that they are part of certain cliques and feel that THEY must be doing the wrong for this to happen to them - all in the total belief that they are the only one!!!!!!!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Mal said:


> Sadly this is just the sort of thing the RSPCA would have a field day with. I think they would look into things very thoroughly but they would probably use their findings in a far more damaging way than would be expected. Its the sort of ammunition they love to twist and use to discredit herp keepers in general and fuel their mission to end the public being able to keep of reptiles.


 so because we are a precarious hobby we shut up and dont mention the illegal activities of breeders and sellers..

AHHHH that will make us so much more credible.. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

well this morning when i saw the other thread i phoned my son as i had 3 geckos myself of byg last friday, but i wasn't in for delivery he was and when i got in they were in there viv settling anyway when i got hold of him i ask who they were delivered by and he said royal mail i have to admit this shocked me,i even found the box my son had put in the shed that they came in and yes royal mail delivery before 1.00pm £6.40.
i would love to think this is someone trying to pull the wool over bgy's eyes and taking her money but it's not looking that way.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

SO am I right then that the ones who dont think any action should be taken also wouldnt mind if they ordered a group of leos or snakes and spent a lot of money only for them to be sent by royal mail and end up in a depot freezing and dead..
It seems it doesnt matter as long as its not happening to someone personally with their animals or their money..

I disagree you see.. if people are not encouraged to report these incidents then where does that leave us as a hobby so often damned by the media and the rspca..

its a double edged sword for those who want it to continue due to the difficulty of accesing reptiles by safe and legal courriers. Personally Id prefer never to have another animal ever if it meant using an ilegal method such as royal mail.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

linda.t said:


> well this morning when i saw the other thread i phoned my son as i had 3 geckos myself of byg last friday, but i wasn't in for delivery he was and when i got in they were in there viv settling anyway when i got hold of him i ask who they were delivered by and he said royal mail i have to admit this shocked me,i even found the box my son had put in the shed that they came in and yes royal mail delivery before 1.00pm £6.40.
> i would love to think this is someone trying to pull the wool over bgy's eyes and taking her money but it's not looking that way.


Anymore willing to come forward? B.Y.G -Were you aware of this one??


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

linda.t said:


> well this morning when i saw the other thread i phoned my son as i had 3 geckos myself of byg last friday, but i wasn't in for delivery he was and when i got in they were in there viv settling anyway when i got hold of him i ask who they were delivered by and he said royal mail i have to admit this shocked me,i even found the box my son had put in the shed that they came in and yes royal mail delivery before 1.00pm £6.40.
> i would love to think this is someone trying to pull the wool over bgy's eyes and taking her money but it's not looking that way.


 
Thanks linda.... and I know there are others... I hope they feel they can come forward too.

JUST to highlight it for the people saying its an ISOLATED incident.
BYG... something needs to be done you have known about this WAY before Kirsten its just now people are finding out and going public.

So i take it then a third party has been acting ilegally if BYG is to be believed... so why then when notified by several RFUK members of the royal mail deliveries did you not sto using the third party ??


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

Not a great deal sure about whats going on but sounds to me like the breeder is charging courier prices but sending via royal mail... lets face it what large courier service would risk a business for the sake of £20 here or there? they wouldnt, end of storey, risk of your business shutting down and a fine... hello? THEY WOULDNT!


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

not to mention maybe a sentance?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i'm sitting on the fence with this but can somebody clear a couple of things up..


why do people always say 'tell the moderators'.. is there an international council of forum moderators that have special powers?
can somebody please show me where it's 'illegal' to ship vertebrates by royal mail? i've searched on google but all i can find is that Royal Mail prohibit the sending of vertebrates via post.. ie THEY do not allow you to send animals via their system,


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## jack_rep (Sep 11, 2008)

Well you have fun Sparkle reporting them to "the authorities". Dont be expecting to hear sirens screaming down the street tho soon after


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

jack_rep said:


> Well you have fun Sparkle reporting them to "the authorities". Dont be expecting to hear sirens screaming down the street tho soon after


 
thank you for your continued interest in the thread.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

hollypops said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/185664-outcome-gecko-delivered-via-royal.html


I recall speaking to Purpleskyes about her gecko arriving via Royal Mail and unless I am mistaken or the breeder in her case has changed name, this was not the same breeder as in Kirstens case. I think that should be clarified by Purpleskyes before people include her thread in the equation.


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## jack_rep (Sep 11, 2008)

Meko said:


> i'm sitting on the fence with this but can somebody clear a couple of things up..
> 
> 
> why do people always say 'tell the moderators'.. is there an international council of forum moderators that have special powers?
> can somebody please show me where it's 'illegal' to ship vertebrates by royal mail? i've searched on google but all i can find is that Royal Mail prohibit the sending of vertebrates via post.. ie THEY do not allow you to send animals via their system,


exactly!


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

Meko said:


> i'm sitting on the fence with this but can somebody clear a couple of things up..
> 
> 
> can somebody please show me where it's 'illegal' to ship vertebrates by royal mail? i've searched on google but all i can find is that Royal Mail prohibit the sending of vertebrates via post.. ie THEY do not allow you to send animals via their system,


 
ill be honest i joined in the bandwagon on this one and just wanted to look big. i know they dont allow it, i just presumed it was illegal. ill move back to my only little corner now called snake section


daniel


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

lukendaniel said:


> ill be honest i joined in the bandwagon on this one and just wanted to look big. i know they dont allow it, i just presumed it was illegal. ill move back to my only little corner now called snake section
> 
> 
> daniel


 
lots of people throw illegal around for the sake of it because of what companies do and don't allow and to be honest... it does start to do my nut in sometimes.
So with this one i am interested to find out if it is actually illegal or if they've done something that RM say they're not allowed to do.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Mal said:


> I recall speaking to Purpleskyes about her gecko arriving via Royal Mail and unless I am mistaken or the breeder in her case has changed name, this was not the same breeder as in Kirstens case. I think that should be clarified by Purpleskyes before people include her thread in the equation.


 
I was not suggesting it was the same breeder i was suggesting this has happened more than once with different sellers.. and certainly i know of more than one occasion with BYG seems like several coming forward now thankfully.


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

Meko may have a point. Just because it's not illegal though, doesn't make it right! 

I'm not convinced either the RSPCA or any other authority is either the right way to go or would even be interested. However, I do think that if any breeder is going to send unmarked reptiles by post, then people need to know in order to avoid using the breeder in question.

What we need is a more thorough explanation of the circumstances from BYG(if there is one). Otherwise people are going to make up their own minds on the evidence offered.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Mal said:


> I recall speaking to Purpleskyes about her gecko arriving via Royal Mail and unless I am mistaken or the breeder in her case has changed name, this was not the same breeder as in Kirstens case. I think that should be clarified by Purpleskyes before people include her thread in the equation.


Wait for the facts to come in first? What a ridiculous notion, do you know how difficult it is to rein in a mob once they have bee set loose? Then there's the wear and tear on the pitchforks/torches...these things are not cheap nowadays, they all have to be hand crafted at a specialist manufacturer in Transylvania, then there's the catering, the St John's Ambulance (in case of accidents, pretty much guaranteed someone will singe their eyebrows or stick a pitchfork through their foot)...


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

sparkle said:


> so because we are a precarious hobby we shut up and dont mention the illegal activities of breeders and sellers..
> 
> AHHHH that will make us so much more credible.. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No, tha was not what I was meaning at all and I am sorry if it came across that way. Im dealing with a poorly son so only submitted a very quick post of what I thought. What I mean is that the uncaring actions of a few can seriously effect every single one of us that love and care for our animals. It gives even more reason for this sort of behaviour to be stopped.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> lots of people throw illegal around for the sake of it because of what companies do and don't allow and to be honest... it does start to do my nut in sometimes.
> So with this one i am interested to find out if it is actually illegal or if they've done something that RM say they're not allowed to do.


 
let me phone defra tomorrow and get the exact legislation I know it is illegal as my friend had two leos arrive dead from royal mail 2 years ago and went through the procedure of prosecuting.. I will try to contact them too actually and get all the info 

if animals are in transit for more than a certain amount of time the company NEEDS a liscence tpye 1 or type 2. Since royal mail do not have these liscences it is not legal to send vertebrates through them or indeed any other company without type 1 and type 2 from defra dependant on journey times.

If for example there is a snow drift TNT MUST by law deal with ALL live vertebrate packages IF delivery is not possible. Theyt have certain rules and regulations in respect to vertebrate packages and how they are handled and dealt with regarding severe weather and journey times.

Whereas with royal mail they are not marked and will not be dealt with regarding animal welfare thus breaking the animal welfare act aslo. if sneding a live vertebrate by tnt or any other postal type courrier it must be marked for safe carriage.

Give me tomorrow/ monday to collate all the correct info


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

PLEASE NOTE i have just had a pm from someone else who has had leos from b.y.g via royal mail.The person does not want to be publicly named but details have been passed to Kirsten an sparkle.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

BBC NEWS | Magazine | What can't you send through the post?


banned from owning animals for sending a vertibrate through the post.............


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## Berber King (Dec 29, 2007)

Damn...im out of popcorn.Ill have to read the rest in the morning when its locked.


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

I think this thread is getting a little side tracked regarding the legalities of sending live animals throught the post. The initail issue wasn`t/isn`t whether it was actually illegal to do that or not - it`s whether it`s moral to do it, and whether it`s acceptable to charge a courier fee of £30-35 when something ends up getting stuck in the post andkeeping the money. The other issue the OP is particularly narked about is paying for certain animals that were sold to her on the basis of reputation and trust, nd then discovering that what she paid for wasn`t what she actually got!!!
If I ordered a Crocodile over the internet and paid for it`s safe delivery, and ended up getting an anole with a stamp on it`s head, I wouldn`t be satisfied with the excuse that "it was housed with other anoles when it was young - that`s why it`s too small to eat you".


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

wohic said:


> BBC NEWS | Magazine | What can't you send through the post?
> 
> 
> banned from owning animals for sending a vertibrate through the post.............


 
thank you so much.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Fixx said:


> Wait for the facts to come in first? What a ridiculous notion, do you know how difficult it is to rein in a mob once they have bee set loose? Then there's the wear and tear on the pitchforks/torches...these things are not cheap nowadays, they all have to be hand crafted at a specialist manufacturer in Transylvania, then there's the catering, the St John's Ambulance (in case of accidents, pretty much guaranteed someone will singe their eyebrows or stick a pitchfork through their foot)...


 




I really am relieved no animals died but if they had im pretty sure this thread wouldnt be littered with jokes. However i appreciate your viewpoint and where you are coming from. Sadly i care very little about how PEOPLE feel here. Moreso about animal wellbeing.

if people are happy sendimng and receiving animals by royal mail so be it....

many of us are not and we are allowed publically to express this along with incidents of it happening.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

wohic said:


> BBC NEWS | Magazine | What can't you send through the post?
> 
> 
> banned from owning animals for sending a vertibrate through the post.............


not good news for BYG


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

wohic said:


> BBC NEWS | Magazine | What can't you send through the post?
> 
> 
> banned from owning animals for sending a vertibrate through the post.............


 
The reason for the actions taken towards them is the fact that they put it in a envelope and in a letter box... hense the "so what is banned from a letterbox" not what is banned from royal mail...

Im still in the middle tho as to wether its legal or not! Time will tell!


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

```
Quote:
[SIZE=2]Originally Posted by palomine [/SIZE][URL="http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/247650-leos-arrived-royal-mail-post3291558.html#post3291558"][SIZE=2][IMG]http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG][/SIZE][/URL][SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[I][SIZE=2]indefence of 'the breeder' we did have same problem last week. box had fragile written on it...not live animals. i was furious as they too arrived by royal mail. i spoke to breeder who i have dealt with many times and they were absolutely furious as the person they trusted to send the leo's off safely has obviously let them down drastically. so dont think this 'helper' has been let off lightly as they haven't and they will definately not be used again. i have had a lot of contact from the breeder re this and all i can say is they are very concerned and just making sure all is ok with the babies. yes they're journey was horendous for them and i was livid but on speaking to the breeder this was not their doing. hope this helps explain some things.[/SIZE][/I]
```
this person was orriginally trying to defend byg, but has inadvertantly provided another case whereby this has happend and the excuse i was given today was given to her last week, so byg has said she was aware last week, and yet let the same person post geckos for her again?!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I shall contact defra and royal mail tomorrow for clear concise information.


for now I am going to feed the cresties. x


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I was not suggesting it was the same breeder i was suggesting this has happened more than once with different sellers.. and certainly i know of more than one occasion with BYG seems like several coming forward now thankfully.


 Again my apologies, reading stuff quickly I didnt see anything indicating either way about the link being connected and thought it a bit out of order if people were assuming Purpleskyes thread was another incident relating to BYG.
I think if you read my earlier posts in relation to this incident and in similar posts on Purpleskyes threads you will see that I am totally against anyone who shows such lack of care towards animals by sending them this way. I have never once indicated I dont think the matter should be pursued, in fact my stance is quite to the contrary. .


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Meko said:


> can somebody please show me where it's 'illegal' to ship vertebrates by royal mail? i've searched on google but all i can find is that Royal Mail prohibit the sending of vertebrates via post.. ie THEY do not allow you to send animals via their system,


Yet you can send FISH a VEREBRATE with Royal mails full knowledge.It's done every day on E-bay which have the same rules as royal mail in terms of live stock.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

wohic said:


> BBC NEWS | Magazine | What can't you send through the post?
> 
> 
> banned from owning animals for sending a vertibrate through the post.............


 
i did see that but the problem is it says they commited a criminal offence, but doesn't say what the offence was. It also says that 'a spokesman said.........' which would be a royal mail spokesman..


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I shall contact defra and royal mail tomorrow for clear concise information.
> 
> 
> for now I am going to feed the cresties. x


cheers chick.. cos i can't find anything to say it is 'illegal' or just royal mail say no.. or if it's illegal if they're not packaged correctly.


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

clearly stats that if you let royal mail know, and the lizard is packed in a manor they find suitable they will deliver... nothing about it being illegal! As i said before was only illegal with the hampster because they put it in a envelope and posted it in a letter box!!!


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## Misswhippy (Jan 15, 2009)

I can search through for full statutory law if needs be (would take a while though and animals aren't exactly my field!!) however,you are not allowed to transport animals in a way that is likely to cause injury or suffering

Interpretation could therefore include this extending to using royal mail to send lizards


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Meko said:


> lots of people throw illegal around for the sake of it because of what companies do and don't allow and to be honest... it does start to do my nut in sometimes.
> So with this one i am interested to find out if it is actually illegal or if they've done something that RM say they're not allowed to do.


It IS illegal as you need an animal courier license which they do not have.: victory:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

specific licensing is required for animal transport, royal mail do not have these llicences so unless it was to be delivered within 12 hours then it would be against the animal welfare act and so illegal 
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/farmed/transport/pdf/2e-vehicle_spec_other.pdf


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

royal mail clearly states as above they will send lizards if they are packet correctly and they are aware. Read the statement about the hamster! Although it does also say it HAS to be labeled with the livestock inside!


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

"So what else is banned from the POSTBOX? 

Unlike other postal firms, Royal Mail does not ban the whole of the animal kingdom. you need to seek advice from us on packaging because it needs to be acceptable. And you need to use first class post and clearly label the parcel." 
Kirstens package was acceptable accept the ventilation, but there was also NO labels on the parcel to note what so ever of any livestock!


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Luke87 said:


> royal mail clearly states as above they will send lizards if they are packet correctly and they are aware. Read the statement about the hamster! Although it does also say it HAS to be labeled with the livestock inside!


 ALLOWED IN THE POST... 
Bees
Leeches
Silkworms
Caterpillars
Earthworms
Lugworms
Fish eggs
Maggots
Mealworms
Ragworms

...but only by Royal Mail and if in correct packaging A spokesman said: "Living creatures are prohibited but there are exceptions, like earthworms, bees and leeches.





where does it clearly state ?????


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

Luke87 said:


> royal mail clearly states as above they will send lizards if they are packet correctly and they are aware. Read the statement about the hamster! Although it does also say it HAS to be labeled with the livestock inside!


I think the overall point is if you REALLY care about the livestock you send (note this is not named at BYG but more at the courier) you would send it with a company who knows what theyre doing. Realistically speaking in a big warehouse how many workers would read each package to check for livestock? (I mean no offence to RM workers)

Ive gotten ornaments of ebay and places that even though wrapped up great and things and with fragile written everywhere... have still been broken... now imagine getting a broken leopard gecko? Not nice


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

this wasn't labelled; not even 'fragile'


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

zemanski said:


> this wasn't labelled; not even 'fragile'


exactly. It would have been thrown about like a rag doll


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## abisnail (Jan 1, 2009)

Luke87 said:


> Not a great deal sure about whats going on but sounds to me like the breeder is charging courier prices but sending via royal mail... lets face it what large courier service would risk a business for the sake of £20 here or there? they wouldnt, end of storey, risk of your business shutting down and a fine... hello? THEY WOULDNT!


This exactly!! TNT are laying off staff and cutting back all overtime, I know this for a fact, so is the BYG ladies story that unbelievable? It seems like a typical bandwagon party to me.....Also, people that were saying, and I quote...
'
'*You say you "love and enjoy breeding leopard geckos" YET put their care and their delivery in the hands of A THIRD PARTY that you don`t even know, who was recommended by a friend???? Do you know who sent them - YOUR leos????'*

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe the people that run BYG have full time jobs? Families? Mortgages even? Maybe they're not at home stroking reptiles and posting on the ********* internet all day eh? Maybe, regrettably, they have to employ 3rd parties in the running of their business. Just maybe.


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

i never once said i personally beleive it is acceptable... i FAR from beleive many things are acceptable in this country! But that is a different storey, im just saying no point saying it IS or ISNT illegal untill someone finds solid proof! 

And not to mean this in any kind of finger pointing attitude but maybe the breeder didnt send it via courier then the courier service use royal mail... maybe the breeder sent it via royal mail to make some money! What kind of courier service would risk there business for the sake of a few quid here or there?!?!?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

wohic said:


> ALLOWED IN THE POST...
> Bees
> Leeches
> Silkworms
> ...


What about LIVE fish NOT fish eggs.Ploy Box's send by royal mail from won in E-bay are CLEARLY marked LIVE FISH.And royal mail appected these packages over and over again.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Someone earlier asked why moderators were mentioned in thread.

Am i right in thinking that you are allowed to carry on using the forum regardless of how you treat reps?

Just wondering for my own clarification, i thought moderators could stop people selling/advertising here if potentially harmful to the animal.Sorry if i am wrong ,like i say it was just my natural assumption. ( i am not saying stop them using the site at all , just asking a question)


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

gazz said:


> What about LIVE fish NOT fish eggs.Ploy Box's send by royal mail from won in E-bay are CLEARLY marked LIVE FISH.And royal mail appected these packages over and over again.


I have no idea........ but yes i know that they do tend to accept fish.
probably because they are not covered by the defra transport legislation


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

abisnail said:


> This exactly!! TNT are laying off staff and cutting back all overtime, I know this for a fact, so is the BYG ladies story that unbelievable? It seems like a typical bandwagon party to me.....Also, people that were saying, and I quote...
> '
> '*You say you "love and enjoy breeding leopard geckos" YET put their care and their delivery in the hands of A THIRD PARTY that you don`t even know, who was recommended by a friend???? Do you know who sent them - YOUR leos????'*
> 
> Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe the people that run BYG have full time jobs? Families? Mortgages even? Maybe they're not at home stroking reptiles and posting on the ********* internet all day eh? *Maybe, regrettably, they have to employ 3rd parties in the running of their business. Just maybe*.


byg claim to be a hobbyist breeder, so employing a third party is not allowed, to have to be registered self employed to have employees. so if they are employing other, this is another issue that needs to be dealt with.


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

been trying to post and kept losing it so's will keep this short ~
regardless of the in's and out's leo's were sent via RM and in my view this is morally wrong... as is sending them in an *unmarked* box. 
If a breeder puts delivery in the hands of a third party ~ for whatever reason ~ when advertising that a courier service is available then buyers should be notified *before *dispatch so that they can choose whether or not to go ahead or wait till a licensed courier is available and not have it left until someone complains.
Luckily the leo's received by Kirsten were not (as far as can be assertained) seriously hurt despite being bounced and thrown around and luckily were only extremely cold but how long before a leo is sent that doesn't survive RM's parcel treatment? What then?
As said by others actions of a few can seriously effect every single one of us that care for our animals and it gives even more reason for this sort of thing to be stopped.


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## Misswhippy (Jan 15, 2009)

Welfare of Animals during transport order


The Welfare of Animals during Transport Order 1994 If you need any translation on it let me know,but should be ok


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

that clears thingup for me, section 3 paragragh 2 comes to my mind also, as the smallest girl is only 9 grams, and may not cope well with the feeding disruption associated with transporting leos in any manner, let alone one so stressfull as royal mail sorting machines etc.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

hollypops said:


> Someone earlier asked why moderators were mentioned in thread.
> 
> Am i right in thinking that you are allowed to carry on using the forum regardless of how you treat reps?
> 
> Just wondering for my own clarification, i thought moderators could stop people selling/advertising here if potentially harmful to the animal.Sorry if i am wrong ,like i say it was just my natural assumption. ( i am not saying stop them using the site at all , just asking a question)


 
it was me who mentioned it; *if* the sale was made via BYG's website then the forum doesn't come into it apart from them both being members.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

vickylolage said:


> exactly. It would have been thrown about like a rag doll


 
although probably less than if it was labeled as fragile


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## vickylolage (Oct 5, 2008)

Meko said:


> although probably less than if it was labeled as fragile


it wasnt hence why I said that :/


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Meko said:


> although probably less than if it was labeled as fragile


 
which it was not, there was no labling except my address

and i made the deal to buy via pm on this site, so it has everything to do with this site, i would never have heard off them otherwise.


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## Misswhippy (Jan 15, 2009)

kirsten said:


> that clears thingup for me, section 3 paragragh 2 comes to my mind also, as the smallest girl is only 9 grams, and may not cope well with the feeding disruption associated with transporting leos in any manner, let alone one so stressfull as royal mail sorting machines etc.


I have to admit to being proud of myself for finding it so quickly,big change for a child care lawyer to animal welfare laws:lol2:

But yep,you are quite correct.The manner in which they were transported would not be legal for various reasons -the care provided,the planning of routes and times for the quickest safest possible delivery,the lack of recognition of what was being carried,no specific knowledge,method of transport as a whole being totally unsuitable and no certification


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

abisnail said:


> This exactly!! TNT are laying off staff and cutting back all overtime, I know this for a fact, so is the BYG ladies story that unbelievable? It seems like a typical bandwagon party to me.....Also, people that were saying, and I quote...
> '
> '*You say you "love and enjoy breeding leopard geckos" YET put their care and their delivery in the hands of A THIRD PARTY that you don`t even know, who was recommended by a friend???? Do you know who sent them - YOUR leos????'*
> 
> Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe the people that run BYG have full time jobs? Families? Mortgages even? Maybe they're not at home stroking reptiles and posting on the ********* internet all day eh? Maybe, regrettably, they have to employ 3rd parties in the running of their business. Just maybe.


 If they are a business and emloying people then they should pay their taxes and get themselves registered as such then eh? If they are hobbyists, then why the need to employ a 3rd party - sounds like more of a business than a hobby. The should also be accountable for the ppl that they employ then eh? Oh yeah, and the next time I employ someone - I`ll just take someones word for it as well. And maybe, just maybe, when most `employers` find out that the ppl they employ are pocketing their courier money and defrauding said employers - then they`d sack them eh? instead of carrying on using them? Maybe, just maybe.


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## Misswhippy (Jan 15, 2009)

funky1 said:


> If they are a business and emloying people then they should pay their taxes and get themselves registered as such then eh? If they are hobbyists, then why the need to employ a 3rd party - sounds like more of a business than a hobby. The should also be accountable for the ppl that they employ then eh? Oh yeah, and the next time I employ someone - I`ll just take someones word for it as well. And maybe, just maybe, when most `employers` find out that the ppl they employ are pocketing their courier money and defrauding said employers - then they`d sack them eh? instead of carrying on using them? Maybe, just maybe.


Of course it's a business they run and should be registered as such.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

kirsten said:


> which it was not, there was no labling except my address
> 
> and i made the deal to buy via pm on this site, so it has everything to do with this site, i would never have heard off them otherwise.


that's why i made the 'if' bold, because i didn't know if it was a forum sale or via their website. If you leave them negative feedback and they get enough negative feedback they'll be banned from the classifieds.

with the labeling i missed something off.. quite often when parcels are labeled as fragile its more of a challenge to try and break it.


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

to be honest BYG have some explaining to do... enough has been said to show how serious this is! Lets just wait and see what they have to say, because as i said before i would be VERY supprised if they didnt have any idea they were being sent via RM, infact i would be very suprised if they even used a courier service in the first place!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

funky1 said:


> If they are a business and emloying people then they should pay their taxes and get themselves registered as such then eh? If they are hobbyists, then why the need to employ a 3rd party - sounds like more of a business than a hobby. The should also be accountable for the ppl that they employ then eh? Oh yeah, and the next time I employ someone - I`ll just take someones word for it as well. And maybe, just maybe, when most `employers` find out that the ppl they employ are pocketing their courier money and defrauding said employers - then they`d sack them eh? instead of carrying on using them? Maybe, just maybe.


 
personally, i'd say as soon as somebody gives themselves a trading name they stop becoming a hobbyist.


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

exactly, i became klmgeckos and have registered as such. (think of unregistering though as the books dont balance from working at a loss and supplimenting with out own cash, lol)


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Meko said:


> it was me who mentioned it; *if* the sale was made via BYG's website then the forum doesn't come into it apart from them both being members.


Thanks for clearing that up.:2thumb:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

I wouldnt consider a polybox alone as suitable packaging for a leo with any courier. I have received leos via courier from some of the top breeders. They have always come with the leo in a polybox with heatpad and packing to stop the box sliding. (Polyboxes break easily.) The polybox has then been placed inside a strong cardboard box again with packing material to stop the contents sliding. The outer box has been sealed with 'fragile' tape. Emergency contact details were visible on the box as were 'Live Reptiles in Transit' labels. Both cardboard and poly box had vent holes.
I have been lucky enough to gain the service of a courier though to be honest I will only use them if all avenues of delivery have been explored. I package leos in exaxtly the same way. The area rep for the courier has visited my setup, seen the type of reps I intended to send and stipulated that they must be packed in the way I described. Before accepting me as a customer the Rep went back to her head office and had it checked as to whether they could legally move my reps. 
An inadequatly labelled non ventilated box polybox is not appropriate to send a leo by any means.


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## maddragon29 (Oct 16, 2008)

Personally i'm praising Kirsten for taking this further, and thanking the lord that someone brought this to the public light before we started getting awful horror stories.
have you had any excuses as to why the leo's were so small? obviously they were not the age they were advertised, is this not something to bring to attention aswell?

or am i making more hastle :blush: i'm just interested, been following this story all day.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

maddragon29 said:


> Personally i'm praising Kirsten for taking this further, and thanking the lord that someone brought this to the public light before we started getting awful horror stories.
> have you had any excuses as to why the leo's were so small? obviously they were not the age they were advertised, is this not something to bring to attention aswell?
> 
> or am i making more hastle :blush: i'm just interested, been following this story all day.


 
I dont think your making more hassle.I agree, need to look at the whole picture.Royal mail,wrong size and someone said they advertise normals as patternless an charge more


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## Misswhippy (Jan 15, 2009)

maddragon29 said:


> Personally i'm praising Kirsten for taking this further, and thanking the lord that someone brought this to the public light before we started getting awful horror stories.
> have you had any excuses as to why the leo's were so small? obviously they were not the age they were advertised, is this not something to bring to attention aswell?
> 
> or am i making more hastle :blush: i'm just interested, been following this story all day.


It probably should be brought up.If you look at the site all (nearly all) the leos are lower in weight than you'd expect for the given ages,and that's just me knowing that from me asking about my leos size and weight (she's 4 months old and heavier than all the 5/6/7 month old leos on there and she isn't podgy either!)


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

maddragon29 said:


> Personally i'm praising Kirsten for taking this further, and thanking the lord that someone brought this to the public light before we started getting awful horror stories.
> have you had any excuses as to why the leo's were so small? obviously they were not the age they were advertised, is this not something to bring to attention aswell?
> 
> or am i making more hastle :blush: i'm just interested, been following this story all day.


 
byglady








Super Citizen








Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 801 









*Re: delivery discrepency* 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *kirsten* 
_hi there, _
_having received my leopard geckos from yourselves today, i would like to raise a discrepency with yourselves._

_i'd like to raise the fact that i ordered and paid for two leo's from yourself, that were advertised as being 5 months old, upon receiving them i became acutely aware that they were no where near this age and closer to 8-10 weeks._

_my biggested discreppency, is that fact that i was charge £25 delivery charges for a tnt courier. my leopard geckos arrived today via the royal mail, at a cost of £5.05 to yourselves, so i would like the reffund of £19.95 please, as this was not used to pay for delivery, and should not have been charged._

_i kindly await your reply_

_kirsten_

Hello Kirsten

Thank you for your message. We are sorry that you are not happy with the geckos that you have recieved and the delivery charges. 

*The dates shown on the site are when the eggs hatched, as you will be aware all geckos grow at different rates, these ladies have always been kept with another leo and have taken longer to grow on, that is why we put the weights of each animal on the site.*

The courier fees cover both the cost of couring, normally TNT, although that was not available to us at the moment, the poly box and the packaging and heatpacks. However we will of course give you a refund of the courier fees, as it is so late will it be alright if I call you tomorrow and get your bank account details so that I can transfer the money into your account at the weekend or would you prefer a cheque being sent to you.

We look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your time.

*low weight due to housing issues? really not on!!*


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## elliottreed (Jan 9, 2008)

I'd just like to add, I was in the same situation years back with a lady ILLEGALLY sending her baby corn snakes out via royal mail...

As soon as I found out, I notified the depot and went to collect the animal myself. She was banned from sending anything more than a letter via royal mail. There was also another person in on the act, one of the drivers who vouched not to say a word even though he knew what was going on.

He got sacked and although I said I wouldn't take it further as I was happy they were both banned from being able to do it again, it CAN and WILL be noted and taken appropriate action.

Luckily for her from then on her orders were collection only and her business wasn't put in jeapordy.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

The courier fees cover both the cost of couring, normally TNT, *although that was not available to us at the moment, *the poly box and the packaging and heatpacks

So they knew it wasnt going to go via TNT. The story of a 3rd party duping them is clearly a load of bulls... They knew Royal Mail was being used,


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## maddragon29 (Oct 16, 2008)

Personally i dont think a leo at that age should be that small, even if it is a slow grower.
not without something being wrong with the husbandry. but thats from my experience.

thanks for letting me see that though. 



-oh, and didn't you say that there were no heat packs? I hope, and am sure, you brought this to their attention-


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

Whether it is illegal to send the gecko via RM or not is not really the problem. The fact that people are paying £25+ for something to be delivered for about £5 is awful. I know someone who has been affected by this and had problems with their leopard geckos. I agree BYG have some explaining to do.


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

maddragon29 said:


> Personally i dont think a leo at that age should be that small, even if it is a slow grower.
> not without something being wrong with the husbandry. but thats from my experience.
> 
> thanks for letting me see that though.
> ...


 
no, i said the heat packs didn't have enough oxygen for the chemical reaction to make them hot. but they were nowhere near the leo's and behing polystrene chunks anyway.


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## maddragon29 (Oct 16, 2008)

ah i see.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

kirsten said:


> The courier fees cover both the cost of couring, normally TNT, although that was not available to us at the moment


So if TNT was not available how did BYG think it was being sent??

Im a bit confused, there seems little surprise that RM was used...


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Slurm said:


> So if TNT was not available how did BYG think it was being sent??
> 
> Im a bit confused, there seems little surprise that RM was used...


They were not suprised as they use RM often by sounds of it


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

as i said from the begining, they knew it was RM they were using, and had no intentions of using anyone else! Plus they will carry on doing so untill someone takes action which thankfully kirsten is!

Let me know if you need any help kirsten!


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

thank you to everyone that has been so supportive, i just couldn't leave this to go unnoticed for it to happen again and again. myself and sparkle are on the case. but it will have to wait till tomorrow, lol.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

byglady said:


> We would like to thank Kirsten for bringing this to our attention, as explained earlier the person who normally packages and arranges the couriering service for us is not available at this present time. Over the last three weeks we have been using the services of somebody else, who was recommended to us by a third party. We obviously will not be using this service again. We were not aware that the geckos where being sent through the royal mail services.
> We will be in contact with all the people this has affected in due course. We apologise for the delay in answering the thread but as we all work full time and have the normally family commitments. As Kirsten stated in her thread, she was contacted the minute we became aware of the problem.
> We are not professional breeders, we are hobbist who always put the welfare of our animals first. We hope to have the continued support of all the people on this forum and the new friends we have made through the various shows.
> We hope this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible and to everyone’s satisfaction, so we can get back to what we love and enjoy which is breeding geckos and meeting new likeminded people.
> ...


Does the following website belong to you?

Big Yellow Gecko

I ask as the name Peter Blake as it is used there belongs to a professional in the pet trade. 

I'm just curious if this is the case then why isnt he on here explaining whats going on, according to the blurb on that site he heads it all up after all.

I don't get on with the guy but if the above is incorrect then i'll get on to him in the morning and let him know his name is being associated with disgraceful behaviour that we should not be tolerating as a hobby.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

this thread is getting boaring now its got naff all to do with alot of you


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Dan said:


> Does the following website belong to you?
> 
> Big Yellow Gecko
> 
> ...


yes its the same people.big yellow gecko and byglady or something on here.Those PROFESSIONALS have been sending geckos via royal mail, they are aware of this thread to my knowledge.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

hollypops said:


> yes its the same people.big yellow gecko and byglady or something on here.Those PROFESSIONALS have been sending geckos via royal mail, they are aware of this thread to my knowledge.


did they send you a gecko threw the post?


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> this thread is getting boaring now its got naff all to do with alot of you


If you are bored you dont have to read it.


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## BadBikaDamo (Feb 18, 2008)

I know I'm being pedantic as usual, but BYGlady says she is not a professional breeder. The definition of a professional is somebody who makes money from an activity. I'm a professional chef, not because I'm any good at it, purely because I make money from it. Totally irrelevent I know, but I'm sure these guys are not being sold for cost price. Also, has anyone seen how packages are sorted at the Royal Mail. I've seen on TV, letters flying along and zipping all over the place, but I've never seen how the packages are handled. I'm not saying it might be OK, just curious.

I Hope the geckos turn out fine, thats the main thing.


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

hollypops said:


> yes its the same people.big yellow gecko and byglady or something on here.Those PROFESSIONALS have been sending geckos via royal mail, *they are aware of this thread to my knowledge*.


 
they made this thread.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> did they send you a gecko threw the post?


No thank god, though i was considering using them.I have been pm,d by people who have been sent leos (who dont want to be made public) through the post asking me to forward it to appropriate people which i have done.


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> did they send you a gecko threw the post?


 
they sent me two geckos through the post.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Dan said:


> Does the following website belong to you?
> 
> Big Yellow Gecko
> 
> ...


that is where i got professional from.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

hollypops said:


> No thank god, though i was considering using them.I have been pm,d by people who have been sent leos (who dont want to be made public) through the post asking me to forward it to appropriate people which i have done.


 
lol so this has really got nothing to to with you then, your just s:censor:t stirring


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

hollypops said:


> yes its the same people.big yellow gecko and byglady or something on here.Those PROFESSIONALS have been sending geckos via royal mail, they are aware of this thread to my knowledge.


Without wanting to sound rude, i'd rather hear it from the horses mouth - as they say. Not that i actually expect an answer, but thats irrelevant.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

I am allowed to have an opionion on ALL threads. Call it what you like, if they dont like it being discussed they shouldn,t have done it!! Simple.


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

here it comes, ding ding round 1!!! 

Try keep it to the subject at mind rather than steering off course :2thumb:


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

hollypops said:


> I am allowed to have an opionion on ALL threads. Call it what you like, if they dont like it being discussed they shouldn,t have done it!! Simple.


your right they shouldnt off done it but you running you gums of to people is not helping is it?


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Round 2 is postponed as i,m off to bed in min:lol2::lol2:


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> your right they shouldnt off done it but you running you gums of to people is not helping is it?


:lol2: i like that phrase


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## abisnail (Jan 1, 2009)

Amazing.


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## Pieluvspooh (May 11, 2008)

kirsten said:


> they sent me two geckos through the post.


Sent me four!


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## Luke87 (Dec 31, 2008)

abisnail said:


> Amazing.


 
quite simply!!


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

hollypops said:


> :lol2: i like that phrase


 your not worth the time of day your really not tbh it should be between BYG and the people who have been sent the geckos


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## abisnail (Jan 1, 2009)

May I add that my beautiful, healthy, happy, BYG leo is sitting in front of the monitor licking his a**ehole at all of you.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

abisnail said:


> May I add that my beautiful, healthy, happy, BYG leo is sitting in front of the monitor licking his a**ehole at all of you.


lol my little brothers one is doing just fine to


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

abisnail said:


> May I add that my beautiful, healthy, happy, BYG leo is sitting in front of the monitor licking his a**ehole at all of you.


 
Is your face wet now then???


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Just to point out...

BYG started this thread ( noone else) at that point anyone with information or gripes or opinions then had every right to publically post a reply. This information has been discussed privately through Pms and emails for some time now and noone had started threads or begun a witch hunt. 

Once a person, whether they be a breeder or seller uses a public forum to announce information irrespective of what that may be they lay themselves wide open for replies. That is what a forum is a public place to type views, facts, opinions, information and any other thing a person wishes too.

I think it is perfectly within reason that once this thread had been made by BYG she should have expected posts in reply from the buyers who received animals from her and opinions from forumites who are not her buyers.

Public means public. If you wish to use the forum to your advantage to relay information be prepared to take what comes after that information is released. I along with others in the past have had to. Noone is any different here. Noone is better or worse. If you dont want the fall out dont post.

At the end of the day we can all agree or disagree. However surely the majority of us are concrened with the welfare of anmals not only when they are in our homes but during transit. I would hope irrespecitve of likes or dislikes and personal issues this thread cna highlight the issues in the hobby when due care and attention in not adhered to .


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> your not worth the time of day your really not tbh it should be between BYG and the people who have been sent the geckos


now now boys, play nice lol. this isn't about being between us and them, this is here to inform everyone as to what has happened so it can be avoided in future, the same as my old post that got closed to stop us slagging while the defendant was unable to do so.


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## abisnail (Jan 1, 2009)

hollypops said:


> Is your face wet now then???


Weren't you going to bed?
Client back out?


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

abisnail said:


> Weren't you going to bed?
> *Client back out*?


 
:no1:


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> lol so this has really got nothing to to with you then, your just s:censor:t stirring


I do think theres a kind of lynch mob mentality going on here, I hate to think of any gecko being sent by RM and imo TNT aint much better(morally).

However I have had respect for BYG as a caring breeder for sometime and clearly something up as this dont seem like the pair i always chat to at all the shows.

Its right to condem this action, but i wonder if there will be a satisfactory conclusion by reporting this activity. What im trying to say is that if they care more damage has been done by bringing this to light than any institution could do.

Whether nievity, stupidity, greed or desperation, we need to ensure it stops not shine a light on questionable actions of a few in a great hobby that may cause disripute.

Whilst Kirsten has every right to be P****D i hope she thinks about her next actions carefully.

I know i will be flamed for the above, but trust me on this after a recent TNT delivery they are not much better, legal maybe but just as cruel. The people that saw my TNT delivery were not impressed and neither was I even though at the time i tried to justify it.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

I have edited a previous post of mine as it would appear that i was thinking of another Peter Blake, as such it would be unfair to leave up shop details in this thread as they are not involved at all : victory:


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

Am I the only one who noticed this post????


byglady said:


> There seems to be a bit of confusion, we have only *not* used TNT over the last 3 weeks *because that has not been available to us*. We are totally unaware of what the other incidents are.
> 
> We have pm'd purpleskyes to get some clarification on this but we have not recieved a reply as of yet.
> 
> We are very upset about this and are trying to rectify the matter as soon as possible.


Surely by that comment alone the seller is admitting to knowingly sending lizards via r.m.s.d., when previously a third party was being blamed????????


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## Misswhippy (Jan 15, 2009)

Mirf said:


> Am I the only one who noticed this post????
> 
> Surely by that comment alone the seller is admitting to knowingly sending lizards via r.m.s.d., when previously a third party was being balmed????????


It speaks for itself doesn't it.

I hope kirsten isn't put off reporting this either,nor anyone else who has had the same issue (nevermind the misrepresentation of the leos aswell)


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

Slurm said:


> I do think theres a kind of lynch mob mentality going on here, I hate to think of any gecko being sent by RM and imo TNT aint much better(morally).
> 
> However I have had respect for BYG as a caring breeder for sometime and clearly something up as this dont seem like the pair i always chat to at all the shows.
> 
> ...


please note this post is also unemotive, there is nothing behind the words, everything is at face value.

i am not pissed off, and am concerned for tghe welfare of these animals, i have never once acted out of anger or frustration, i have thought long and hard before every action i have made, even seeking legal advice before doing anything, and deliberately left it till almost midnight on the day it happend to bring it to light, so i was calm and un-emotive.


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## abisnail (Jan 1, 2009)

Slurm said:


> I do think theres a kind of lynch mob mentality going on here, I hate to think of any gecko being sent by RM and imo TNT aint much better(morally).
> 
> However I have had respect for BYG as a caring breeder for sometime and clearly something up as this dont seem like the pair i always chat to at all the shows.
> 
> ...


 
Hooray! I knew there must be one person on here with a valid point!
I doubt anyone thinks sending the little dudes by RM is a good idea, but flippin' nora (I'll probably get another infraction for that) things have got a little out of hand in this thread.
Non?


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

to remain factual i would say it admits TNT were not available, i have questioned this in a post a bit back, but you are jumping to a conclusion that they knew RM would be used as there are many other couriers...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Slurm said:


> I do think theres a kind of lynch mob mentality going on here, I hate to think of any gecko being sent by RM and imo TNT aint much better(morally).
> 
> However I have had respect for BYG as a caring breeder for sometime and clearly something up as this dont seem like the pair i always chat to at all the shows.
> 
> ...


 

Trying to protect wrongdoing to SAVE the hobby... ( which frankly I think is very shortsighted) smacks of the above highlighted in green.

Speaking to someone and them seeming nice has nothing to do with a gecko/ sorry GECKOS being sent by royal mail. Desperation of not being able to get TNT accounts and the worry your extra livliehood is about to collpase due to difficulty selling if no cheap courrier is available is what this is about.

Its very hard now to sell reptiles UK wide without abusing the system if you dont have a TNT account. Hence why breeders are pushed to resorting to Royal Mail. That however does not make it ok.


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## hollypops (Nov 3, 2008)

Slurm said:


> to remain factual i would say it admits TNT were not available, i have questioned this in a post a bit back, but you are jumping to a conclusion that they knew RM would be used as there are many other couriers...


What about all the others they sent via royal mail.Many have come forward now,some weeks ago,some months ago.


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## abisnail (Jan 1, 2009)

As for the misrepresentation of the animals...aren't all the ages and weights on the website? 
I knew the weight and birth date of all three of mine, if you think the gecko you like is not the correct weight for its age, don't buy it!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Slurm said:


> to remain factual i would say it admits TNT were not available, i have questioned this in a post a bit back, but you are jumping to a conclusion that they knew RM would be used as there are many other couriers...


 
hold on.. they were informed RM was being used by seperate buyers on several occasions before Kirsten bought and received her geckos.

how can you explain them not knowing if they had been informed.. thats impossible... has anyone actually understood this part yet?

its not difficult... very simple in fact...


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

abisnail said:


> As for the misrepresentation of the animals...aren't all the ages and weights on the website?
> I knew the weight and birth date of all three of mine, if you think the gecko you like is not the correct weight for its age, don't buy it!


 
as i have said so many times now, the geckos are a healthy size and weight for their age, but their age is not 5 months, more like 8-10 weeks as i demonstrated in my thread.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

abisnail said:


> As for the misrepresentation of the animals...aren't all the ages and weights on the website?
> I knew the weight and birth date of all three of mine, if you think the gecko you like is not the correct weight for its age, don't buy it!


 
can i ask you to be very honest. I am not looking to start an arguement with you just for you to take a step back and consider what MAY have happend to your animals ...

if your geckos had arrived dead or extremely ill due to them being sent royalmail ( for example the packages are not marked vertebrate and had been chucked about in a van and geckos had broken backs for example)

would you genuinely be ok then>>> or would you want to complain about the inadequate transportation of your animals?


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## Pieluvspooh (May 11, 2008)

I bought 4 geckos from byg in mid November and they finally (after me pretty much nagging them for weeks) arrived on 23rd December! I too was told that they would be couriered by TNT and arrive nxt day before 9. When I opened the door and a Royal Mail woman was there I was shocked to say the least. Although if I'm being honest I was just so happy that they'd arrived and that they were ok that I didn't do or say anything! 

In hindsight I wish I'd said something on here or even pm'd one of the people who have been really helpful to me with the geckos (first lizards) but I didn't and I regret that! I'm fairly new to reps but I KNeW they shouldn't have been packaged the way they were, shouldn't have been so cold and definately that Royal Mail should not have been delivering them! I'm actually quite annoyed now because I thought 'oh reputable folks, they know better than me!' so I didn't complain (I wouldn't have taken a refund) I assumed it would have been a one off and now that its been happening to other people and I am more aware of the risks, I wish I'd said something! 

Anyway sorry for the babble but that was my experience, I don't have any proof anymore because I threw the box they came in away last week :bash: that proved that the delivery actually only cost £8.50! 

Claire x

p.s. 3 of my geckos arrived under the weight I was told! x


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Pieluvspooh said:


> I bought 4 geckos from byg in mid November and they finally (after me pretty much nagging them for weeks) arrived on 23rd December! I too was told that they would be couriered by TNT and arrive nxt day before 9. When I opened the door and a Royal Mail woman was there I was shocked to say the least. Although if I'm being honest I was just so happy that they'd arrived and that they were ok that I didn't do or say anything!
> 
> In hindsight I wish I'd said something on here or even pm'd one of the people who have been really helpful to me with the geckos (first lizards) but I didn't and I regret that! I'm fairly new to reps but I KNeW they shouldn't have been packaged the way they were, shouldn't have been so cold and definately that Royal Mail should not have been delivering them! I'm actually quite annoyed now because I thought 'oh reputable folks, they know better than me!' so I didn't complain (I wouldn't have taken a refund) I assumed it would have been a one off and now that its been happening to other people and I am more aware of the risks, I wish I'd said something!
> 
> ...


 


23rd december that was over 4 weeks ago NOT 3 weeks like they have said.

HUGE HOLES in the first post have been shown throughout this thread .
if they are a small family run hobbyist i find it impossible to believe they do not know how their geckos are being sent. sorry.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Time to stop this I think.

People have had their say. Should BYG wish to contribute any more to this thread then please report the thread so we can re-open it for you to respond to some of the comments/questions raised.


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