# true fire and ice bearded dragons



## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

hi to all

just a note to all bearded dragon breeders and beardie lovers

all fire and ice dragons will come with paper work from terri or my self

or there not fire and ice dragons please contact me if you think you have one or you have been sold one with out paper work. lets try and put these con men out of business:bash:


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

woodrott said:


> hi to all
> 
> just a note to all bearded dragon breeders and beardie lovers
> 
> ...


i dont get this paperwork thing, when i bred dragons i never included a 'bred by our lad jules' etc. and whats a fire and ice dragon?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

*fire and ice*

a fire and ice dragon is a pure dragon 
by that i meen thay are a true colour
if you breed two citrus then you will only get citrus
not a mix of colours. there some of the best dragons you can get this is why you get paper work
if thay were poor dragons why do people use the name fire and ice and charge the earth for something that isnt


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

woodrott said:


> a fire and ice dragon is a pure dragon
> by that i meen thay are a true colour
> if you breed two citrus then you will only get citrus
> not a mix of colours. there some of the best dragons you can get this is why you get paper work
> if thay were poor dragons why do people use the name fire and ice and charge the earth for something that isnt


ah ok...but why do you say that if they come from other sellers then they are not F&I? cant be the only breeders....
just curious, i bred lime phase god knows how many years ago now


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

ok
if you have paper work then yes you can call them fire and ice
but very few people do ...i have the list of all the beardies that have come into the uk and there are very few ..we all paid a lot of cash 
and time to get them over here and im sick of jo bloggs breeding a normal 
with a bit of colour in it and calling it fire and ice to make money


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

woodrott said:


> ok
> if you have paper work then yes you can call them fire and ice
> but very few people do ...i have the list of all the beardies that have come into the uk and there are very few ..we all paid a lot of cash
> and time to get them over here and im sick of jo bloggs breeding a normal
> with a bit of colour in it and calling it fire and ice to make money


ah ok i didnt know you imported them to breed and they were a new morph type.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

yes there top beardies
check out the web site
www.fireandicedragons.com
and you will see:2thumb:


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## Living Rain (Aug 31, 2006)

Hi Mark,
Hope you can acknowledge that i brought my originals in from Terri on 15th Dec 2004 and now on the 4/5th generations unrelated.
I can and do if asked give paperwork stating what they are and what lineage they are from.
Just so everyone knows i do sell the TRUE Fire & Ice dragons :2thumb::flrt:

Steve


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

yes steve

i hope you do

and keep on doing it

its the only way to keep the scammers out

keep up the good work:2thumb:


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## debcot1 (May 13, 2008)

i recently bought a couple of beardies being advertised as 'fire and ice' (went to get 1 but rescued another as it was slightly deformed and was being bullied) they have a nice colour but obviously arent what they say they are. its not right being advertised wrongly but the price reflected that they werent f/i. he was just a guy who bred his beardies.
what i dont agree with is pet shops wrongly selling f/i beardies.
one i went to recently claim they had f/i and were selling them for £69 without paperwork. they claim to know someone who had a pair who sold them the babies.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

well

no papers that says not fire and ice

im sorry you got riped off

this is why you must have papers

if you ever wont pure fire and ice beardies

then give me a call

and yes thay will have papers

cheep or not:2thumb:


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## debcot1 (May 13, 2008)

woodrott said:


> well
> 
> no papers that says not fire and ice
> 
> ...


 i didnt get ripped off as i knew they werent f/i. i paid £50 for 2 so that says it all. i would love 1 in the future though as they are gorgeous :flrt:


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

no problem

give me a call when your ready:2thumb:


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## 15060 (Feb 17, 2008)

u have pm


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

sorry im new whats pm:2thumb:


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## shell2909 (Jun 30, 2008)

private message 

when i can talk my OH in to more beardies ill give you a call  might be a while though.....


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

sorted:2thumb:


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## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

I would just like to say that i saw your add on another site Mark and i checked with Terri at Fire and Ice and she comfirmed that your dragons are legit and above board good luck with you future sales.I will be placing an order with you next season.:no1:

Mark & Liz


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

nice to see some one useing there head and doing some check out

cheers mark:2thumb:


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## alphakenny1 (Sep 16, 2008)

have you your own website where these little beautys are availible in the uk. local to essex


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## Joshuashaw (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi, I'd be interested in seeing whats available and whats prices + photos to buy a dragon off you? Cheers

Just noticed you was the guy I got in touch with via your preloved advert, if so please can you forward me some more info; availability, price, photos.


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

hi sorry no web site 

i have picks of the pairings

babys are only a few days old when thay 

have there first shed ill post picks

but with them being f&i appoved

there going quick:2thumb:


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## lycanlord20 (Jul 11, 2008)

i too am interested haha


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

hi 
if you also are looking for these dragons then p.m.

for details

cheers mark:2thumb:


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

Living Rain said:


> Hi Mark,
> Hope you can acknowledge that i brought my originals in from Terri on 15th Dec 2004 and now on the 4/5th generations unrelated.
> I can and do if asked give paperwork stating what they are and what lineage they are from.
> Just so everyone knows i do sell the TRUE Fire & Ice dragons :2thumb::flrt:
> ...


I'd be interested to know how many beardies you bought to begin with?
If you bought two unrelated pairs

A   B   C  D *- 1st generation *(ready to breed 2005)

all possible combinations and sexes produced from these babies are:
(bare in mind, female beardies retain sperm, so if female B was mated to male A, had 1 clutch, then was mated to male C, the second clutch of babies may not all be from male C, some could be male As)

AB AD CB CD AB AD CB CD *- 2nd generation *(breed 2006)

If you then bred unrelated pairs of these all combinations are:

ABCD ADCB CBAD CDAB *- 3rd generation *(breed 2007)
ABC ABD ADB ADC CBA CBD CDA CDB (2nd gen. bred back to 1st gen.)

The only way to now breed unrelated pairs, is to breed 3rd gen. back to 1st gen.

ABCD ABDC ADBC ADCB CBAD CBDA CDAB CDBA *- 4th generation *(would breed 2008, but all are related)
*
None of these can be bred to each other as unrelated pairs!

*If you bought 3 unrelated pairs:

A  B  C  D E F *- 1st generation *(ready to breed 2005)

All combinations and sexes again (take into account they retain sperm! You'd be lucky to breed 1 female to 3 males in a year and be definite of the father)

AB AD AF CB CD CF EB ED EF  AB AD AF CB CD CF EB ED EF *- 2nd generation *(breed 2006)
* 
*Breeding unrelated pairs, all combinations are:

ABCD ABCF ABED ABEF | ADCB ABCF ABED ABEF | AFCB AFCD AFEB AFED | CBAD CBAF CBED CBEF | CDAB CDAF CDEB CDEF | CFAB CFAD CFEB CFED | EBAD EBAF EBCD EBCF | EDAB EDAF EDCB EDCF | EFAB EFAD EFCB EFCD*

*(none of these can be bred to each other, there are only 6 different letters, and their babies would have 8 letters, meaning duplications)

(2nd gen back to 1st gen)
ABC ABD ABE ABF ADB ADC ADE ADF AFB AFC AFD AFE ...... etc *- 3rd generation *(breed 2007)

In 2007, these can be bred to each other, to 2nd gen. or to 1st gen. *- 4th gen*

If bred to other 3rd gen, their 4th gen babies are all related, having 6 letters, and cannot be bred. If bred to 2nd gen then 4th gen babies would have 5 letters and could only be bred to 1st gen, if bred to 1st gen, the 4th gen babies would have 4 letters and could be bred to 1st gen again or 2nd gen. 


*SO in 2008 5th generation could be bred from unrelated parents (4th gen to 1st or 2nd gen depending on 4th gens genetics), but only if you'd successfully managed to breed 1 female to 3 different males in 2005, and were sure of the babies fathers, that the females hadn't retained sperm.

It is not possible to have a pair 5th generation unrelated babies, as 5th generation can only have 5 letters at the minimum in their genetics as described above (3rd gen has 3, they're bred to 1st gen - 4th gen has 4, bred to 1st gen - 5th gen has 5)
As there were only 6 letters to begin with, the 5th generation babies must be related in some way!!


SOOOO... unless you bought more than 3 pairs of beardies, or have bred them out to something else (in which case they are not true fire and ice because there is something else in their genes) then you cannot claim that you have 5th generation unrelated babies for sale!!!! 

And I would appreciate it if you didn't make such a claim, as some people don't have the patience or understanding that I do, to go through and work out that this cannot be true....

If you did buy more than 3 pairs, obviously I apologise, but if you didn't, then you really should stop making claims of unrelated babies.
*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

moonstruck said:


> I'd be interested to know how many beardies you bought to begin with?
> If you bought two unrelated pairs
> 
> A B C D *- 1st generation *(ready to breed 2005)
> ...


 
god ,,,well ,,,Mmmm,,,,i see


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## ninja_636 (Oct 19, 2008)

moonstruck said:


> I'd be interested to know how many beardies you bought to begin with?
> If you bought two unrelated pairs
> 
> A B C D *- 1st generation *(ready to breed 2005)
> ...


 
hahaha what an head blag :lol2: i only got half of that


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## fantapants (Jan 4, 2008)

moonstruck said:


> I'd be interested to know how many beardies you bought to begin with?
> If you bought two unrelated pairs
> 
> A B C D *- 1st generation *(ready to breed 2005)
> ...


 
WOW......*somebody .get . the . prozac*


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

fantapants said:


> WOW......*somebody .get . the . prozac*


well yes {but is she wright}?????????????

:whistling2:


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## fantapants (Jan 4, 2008)

woodrott said:


> well yes {but is she wright}?????????????
> 
> :whistling2:


i have no idea......and really couldnt care less. in the snake world its not unusual for siblings to be bred back to each other to prove a trait. so i would care *how* if my beardies are distantly related 4 generations ago. statistically, alot of those presumptions are based on sperm retention......thats not a guaranteed occurence , isit?


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

fantapants said:


> i have no idea......and really couldnt care less. in the snake world its not unusual for siblings to be bred back to each other to prove a trait. so i would care *how* if my beardies are distantly related 4 generations ago. statistically, alot of those presumptions are based on sperm retention......thats not a guaranteed occurence , isit?


no your right


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## Living Rain (Aug 31, 2006)

moonstruck said:


> I'd be interested to know how many beardies you bought to begin with?
> If you bought two unrelated pairs
> 
> A B C D *- 1st generation *(ready to breed 2005)
> ...


Hi Moonstruck,
Apology accepted :flrt: in total i brought over 28 bearded dragons from Fire and Ice. Terri marked the tubs to show who was related to who, thus we have in total 10 completely unrelated pairs - glad i don't do genetics lol. Hope this sets aside any fears you have them being unrelated and if you needed impartial confirmation i'm sure woodcroft could get it from Terri for you.
Cheers Steve


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

fantapants said:


> i have no idea......and really couldnt care less. in the snake world its not unusual for siblings to be bred back to each other to prove a trait. so i would care *how* if my beardies are distantly related 4 generations ago. statistically, alot of those presumptions are based on sperm retention......thats not a guaranteed occurence , isit?


i was right for those numbers of pairs, and* it wasn't mostly based on sperm retention*, everything written was exactly as it was written, *with the possibility of sperm retention ON TOP causing added problems.*

My problem wasn't with the very distant breeding back to a relative 4 generations ago, that doesn't bother me i know that's ok to do, it was with the statement of them being completely unrelated if they had of been related, that would have obviously been a lie. It's the lie that would have bothered me, if someone just said they were 5th generation, i wouldn't have even bothered to work out if they could physically be unrelated.

*But as he's stated, he bought 28 dragons, so I do apologise, as my working was for 4 or 6 dragons, 28 obviously can produce 5th generation unrelated pairs with no difficulty whatsoever, so I now have no doubt they are unrelated.

*My god you must have a lot of money, i've so far bought 3 collectors quality from terri and they've cost me almost £1000 already, before any import costs, that'll be at least another £450! Collectors cost a lot, but I want to breed THE best dragons possible, so only want the best quality breeders, I don't see a point in breeding fire and ice, the best dragons available, unless i start with the best they have for sale. 


I'm glad to find your statements are true then, there are waaayyyy too many con artists out there, keep the genes pure and breed the best dragons you can :2thumb:





fantapants said:


> WOW...... *somebody .get . the . prozac*


no need to imply anything related to my mental state, I DO NOT APPRECIATE IT! and that is being very polite about it


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## Living Rain (Aug 31, 2006)

moonstruck said:


> My god you must have a lot of money, i've so far bought 3 collectors quality from terri and they've cost me almost £1000 already, before any import costs, that'll be at least another £450! Collectors cost a lot, but I want to breed THE best dragons possible, so only want the best quality breeders, I don't see a point in breeding fire and ice, the best dragons available, unless i start with the best they have for sale.
> 
> 
> I'm glad to find your statements are true then, there are waaayyyy too many con artists out there, keep the genes pure and breed the best dragons you can :2thumb:


Yes i did spend a fare bit of money, but it was well worth it and now producing some stunning dragons i think :2thumb:
A few can be seen on this forum as quite few RFUK members have bought them :flrt:.
Good look with yours and i hope you produce some stunning offspring.

Cheers Steve


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## Jellytotsx (Feb 28, 2011)

Hi. I have purchased a female 1st generation fire and ice dragon just this saturday, she is absaloutley lovely. I am guessing she is a true fire and ice as she has came with all the paper work. I am really looking forward for her to grow so I can breed her with my male red citrus x translucent het hypo.


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## mangonmeg (Apr 18, 2010)

*fire and ice dragons*

hey i bought a fire and ice dragon last year of a guy called carl in brynna south wales , he gave me paperwork but it was only a word document , was i conned ?


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

mangonmeg said:


> hey i bought a fire and ice dragon last year of a guy called carl in brynna south wales , he gave me paperwork but it was only a word document , was i conned ?


PM woodrott on here, he is the UK rep for Fire and Ice and could tell you. : victory:

Incidentally, how have you people managed to dig up a thread from three years ago?? :gasp: How much digging did you do? Lol.


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## JotnJosie (Apr 16, 2009)

Ophexis said:


> PM woodrott on here, he is the UK rep for Fire and Ice and could tell you. : victory:
> 
> Incidentally, how have you people managed to dig up a thread from three years ago?? :gasp: How much digging did you do? Lol.


Atleast u can't say they didn't do there research :whistling2: lol


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## woodrott (Sep 14, 2008)

i thought this thread was dead ,but anyway im still here to answer questions??????


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## Tommyjoe19 (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi there mate have you got any available at the moment if so I’m after a nice female thanks joe


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## Debbie1962 (Dec 5, 2008)

Thread is 9 years old and the poster is no longer active.


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