# Theory on Hybrid / Interbreeding



## freedomisle (Jul 9, 2010)

This is a little random but when I first joined the hobby I thought the idea of Hybridizing tarantulas would be fascinating and wonderful. At first I couldn’t understand why it hadn’t been done to the same extent as say corn snakes or geckos and why hobbyists objected so strongly until I spent sometime going through some of the con’s. I noticed when the subject was brought up many hobbyists frowned upon it and even attacked the subject without giving reason. So here are my thoughts, I hope it will if anything persuade potential breeders to avoid taking this path.

*Diluting the gene pool, losing a species for good.*

Captive population
This seems to be one of the main concerns for hobbyists and with good reason. 1 person’s fascination with hybridization could over many generations result in many of 1 species having the DNA of another sub species. This could theoretically extinct the pure breed and/or make identification difficult.

Wild population
With tarantulas being spread throughout the world, having so many variations and with the majority of them being so widely spread it becomes very difficult to isolate a wild population. If any of these hybrids did somehow end up mixing with the wild population it would contaminate the gene pool.
Upon a global catastrophe the captive stock we have wouldn’t be of pure breed. With global warming going the way it is this could turn into a reality.


*Owning a Hybrid.*

*Advantages*


Unique
You would have a unique/semi-unique tarantula.
*
*
*Disadvantages*

Temperament 
We often think of hybridization as a long process of captive interbreeding. But the majority of hybrid tarantulas I’ve come across have been more aggressive than the original specimen

Health Issues
It has been documented that many are often infertile and many other side effects could occur i.e. reduced lifespan, molting complications.

Appearance 
Many tarantulas already have to me some of the most beautiful colours and markings. Hybrids can end up having a dull, less vibrant appearance.

What species have you got?
Some tarantulas can be difficult to distinguish even now and as spiderlings near impossible with some species. This would be even more difficult with a hybrid.


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## OrigamiB (Feb 19, 2008)

Hybridization happens naturally in the wild anyway, the only reson it doesn't happen on a large scale as in the hobby is because some animals have geographical disadvantage when it comes to this (ligers).

Also, I don't see how the mixing with a wild population argument is a good one, most pets in the trade are not kept in there country of origin anyway and as has already been stated if the the two T's live in the same country, chances are some hybridization has happened naturally anyway. Also, most hybrids are infertile as already stated so they won't be able to reprodce to the extent of affecting wild populations anyway.

Thats my views on this anyway... It seems to me that most arguments against it is "playing god", yet keeping these animals in captivity and breeding them is playing god anyway... and so is the selective breeding people do to highlight the colours and traits of certain species.

The main disadvantage I see is that since classification of some T's is already quite messed up, introducing these hybrid T's may complicate issues further and the true species of some may never really be known


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

This is a subject that interests me a lot, obviously there is a lot of natural hybridization that occurs in the wild naturally as mentioned above this is obviously due to the range of the tarantulas in question. Such species that hybridize in the wild would be tarantulas in the genus' _Avicularia_, _Poecilotheria_ and also different Chilean species such as _Euathlus_ and _Paraphysa_ etc.

People intentionally hybridizing tarantulas within the hobby In my eyes is wrong as again mentioned above they produce infertile slings and it also just messes the different gene pools up within the hobby.

Still a very interesting subject though.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

My issue would be that some species are rare in the hobby and that hybridising reduces their numbers available to keepers.

I'd also add that there's not really any good reasons _for_ it. I mean you risk the male _and_ the female in that they may just not pair, or one will eat the other. There's enough variation in Ts that there's something for everyone and while hobby specimens wouldn't be used for classification I really would rather like to see avics properly classified at some point down the line.
Also some species are very rare in the wild, if the hobby could serve as a reservoir for some populations then cross breeding could possibly damage that.

Having said that: horizontal gene transfer is an important part of evolution a few fertile hybrids can get some all important genes into a population, potentially saving it from extinction. Potentially hybrids could help in saving rarer Ts.


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## JAMES DOW (Apr 25, 2010)

even when at the top you've stated more disadvantages than advantages so that would say not a good thing. and all tarantulas are unique there's not one the same as another


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

I wonder can anyone give a good peer reviewed citation proving theraposid hybridization in the wild :hmm:..


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

There are no advantages or disadvantages in owning a hybrid tarantula.



> You would have a unique/semi-unique tarantula.


one of a kind? with most likely more than one offspring doesn't quite add up.


> We often think of hybridization as a long process of captive interbreeding


???? I always thought of it as sucessfully breeding one species with a different species so creating a hybrid species.


> But the majority of hybrid tarantulas I’ve come across have been more aggressive than the original specimen


this can be aplied to almost any cross section of tarantula species. some can be docile and some can be more defencive. this can also change from moult to moult and day to day.



> It has been documented that many are often infertile and many other side effects could occur i.e. reduced lifespan, molting complications.


Where has this been documented? I have heard the same said about infertile offspring but this is also untrue as the many pokie, psalmopoeus and brachypelma hybrids are proof of this. 


> Many tarantulas already have to me some of the most beautiful colours and markings. Hybrids can end up having a dull, less vibrant appearance.


Again from what examples are you basing this on? I have seen some very nice looking brachypelma hybrids and many pokie hybrids I have seen are just as nice looking as the parent species.


> Some tarantulas can be difficult to distinguish even now and as spiderlings near impossible with some species. This would be even more difficult with a hybrid.


Why is this a dissadvantage with a hybrid if it is labeled as a hybrid?




> I wonder can anyone give a good peer reviewed citation proving theraposid hybridization in the wild


Would like to see this also.



> My issue would be that some species are rare in the hobby and that hybridising reduces their numbers available to keepers.


Why?



> I'd also add that there's not really any good reasons _for_ it.


 Fun. there is as good enough reason as any.



> I mean you risk the male _and_ the female in that they may just not pair, or one will eat the other.


You have this same risk with same species pairing even if it is to a sometime lesser extent.


> There's enough variation in Ts that there's something for everyone and while hobby specimens wouldn't be used for classification I really would rather like to see avics properly classified at some point down the line.


There is never enough variation as proved by the countless new species that enter the hobby every year. As for Avics I agree but this has nothing to do with hybrids



> Also some species are very rare in the wild, if the hobby could serve as a reservoir for some populations then cross breeding could possibly damage that.


no I dont think it should.



> Having said that: horizontal gene transfer is an important part of evolution a few fertile hybrids can get some all important genes into a population, potentially saving it from extinction. Potentially hybrids could help in saving rarer Ts.


quite possibily but how?


> People intentionally hybridizing tarantulas within the hobby In my eyes is wrong as again mentioned above they produce infertile slings and it also just messes the different gene pools up within the hobby.


As they dont have to produce infertile spiderlings and don't necessarily mess up anything why is it wrong again?


Trying to hybridize tarantulas is just another avenue for this hobby imo.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Hey baldpoodle, I wondered when you'd turn up  I too share some of your doubts about the first post.



Baldpoodle said:


> Would like to see this also.


Thirded.



> Why?


Finite number of possible breedings, limited availability of males and time constraints due to short male lifespans. There's plenty of varieties and species that have gone extinct in the hobby, or at least become scarcer (e.g. _A. purpurea_ without the white tips to hairs) due to a small population in the hobby, males maturing when there's no adult females around and females maturing once all the males are gone. Add females being unavailable due to being sat on hybrid sacs, and males missing out on same form females because they're off mating with another form and you reduce the numbers in the hobby. Look at large form versis, some people don't think they really exist in the hobby anymore, as all are at least partly small-form.



> Fun. there is as good enough reason as any.


OK. But if you're really that bored of Ts that the hundreds of species available isn't enough, then may I suggest another hobby? I've heard hang-gliding is pretty fun.



> You have this same risk with same species pairing even if it is to a sometime lesser extent.


With a same species pairing there's a lower chance of loosing the male and a much lower chance of loosing the female



> There is never enough variation as proved by the countless new species that enter the hobby every year. As for Avics I agree but this has nothing to do with hybrids


There's plenty of variation, I'll admit this one is a matter of opinion, however my opinion is right.



> no I dont think it should.


Could, not should my dear Baldpoodle. If it reaches a stage were there are few-none left in the wild then hobby stock is better than none, n'est pas? Or say a species suffers a population bottle-neck. Are you going to look at the (admittedly, in many species rather limited) pool of genes in the hobby and say "nah, I don't think that's a good idea"?



> quite possibily but how?


When a species expands it's range, into an area containing a related species it's not uncommon for some hybridisation to occur. I don't know about this happening in theraphosids, but if it does happen then one species can steal favourable genes from another. Improving their disease and parasite resistance etc. Humans appear to have done it (breeding back to chimps several times after splitting from them... possible neanderthal contributions), lots of species have done it. Horizontal gene transfer is _the_ in thing in genetics at the moment. It does help explain a lot (even if it plays havoc with phylogeny).



> Trying to hybridize tarantulas is just another avenue for this hobby imo.


And then where? Fancy morphs (exc. _H. incei_ golds, they're awesome looking)? Bugger that, we should be working on better husbandry before we start hybridising. It's far from perfect right now.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Ohh no Toby, you've done a Baldpoodle on Baldpoodle......

Ive only ever seen this happen once and it didn't turn out nice.....

:2thumb:


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

mcluskyisms said:


> Ohh no Toby, you've done a Baldpoodle on Baldpoodle......
> 
> Ive only ever seen this happen once and it didn't turn out nice.....
> 
> :2thumb:


I'v seen a old man in raincoat try to do a poodle once and that was not nice either :gasp:


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Oderus said:


> I'v seen a old man in raincoat try to do a poodle once and that was not nice either :gasp:


:lol2:

Right now as we speak BP is deciphering Toby's post to within an inch of its life.....


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Probably.

The man has a tendency towards being irritatingly right. You want to disagree due to the tone of the post, but he's 2 steps ahead :lol2: Hats off to the troll-king say I.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Finite number of possible breedings, limited availability of males and time constraints due to short male lifespans.


So don't hybridize with your rare males



> There's plenty of varieties and species that have gone extinct in the hobby, or at least become scarcer (e.g. _A. purpurea_ without the white tips to hairs) due to a small population in the hobby,


And did these become less scarce due to hybrids? 



> males maturing when there's no adult females around and females maturing once all the males are gone.


where do hybrids come in here?


> Add females being unavailable due to being sat on hybrid sacs, and males missing out on same form females because they're off mating with another form and you reduce the numbers in the hobby


Again just keep your "pure" ones seperate from the rest if you want to keep them "pure".



> Look at large form versis, some people don't think they really exist in the hobby anymore, as all are at least partly small-form.


Which is the fault of past gone keepers. If you find it important to keep a species "pure" and are determind to do so then you don't just buy 1 or two spiders and then swap males with any tom dick or harry who says they have one. You buy a good breeding group of WC adults from the same shipment and then work with it. 
Hybrids are not the problem, people in the hobby are.


> OK. But if you're really that bored of Ts that the hundreds of species available isn't enough, then may I suggest another hobby? I've heard hang-gliding is pretty fun.


why on earth should you have to be bored of tarantulas to try out hybridizeing them? This is just another aspect of the hobby. 


> With a same species pairing there's a lower chance of loosing the male and a much lower chance of loosing the female


Like I think I agreed on or? I wonder how many males and females have been lost with the hybrids that are in the hobby?


> There's plenty of variation, I'll admit this one is a matter of opinion, however my opinion is right.


If there was enough variation in the hobby then no one would bother to introduce newly discovered species. BTW this is I why you lose most species in the hobby, as people are so concerntrated on the in new thing the "old species" go out of fashion and are just not bred anymore so often. It has hardly bog all to do with hybrids.


> Could, not should my dear Baldpoodle. If it reaches a stage were there are few-none left in the wild then hobby stock is better than none, n'est pas?


No to me as your hobby stock will be just that hobby stock. They are then no good for classification or otherwise. 


> Or say a species suffers a population bottle-neck. Are you going to look at the (admittedly, in many species rather limited) pool of genes in the hobby and say "nah, I don't think that's a good idea"?


Well yes I would not be introducing any captive bred spiders into the wild in order to save them. (this is what you are talking about yes?) 

Either way hybrids shouldn't (or I should say won't) effect them if you are serious about keeping your species "pure".



> When a species expands it's range, into an area containing a related species it's not uncommon for some hybridisation to occur. I don't know about this happening in theraphosids, but if it does happen then one species can steal favourable genes from another. Improving their disease and parasite resistance etc. Humans appear to have done it (breeding back to chimps several times after splitting from them... possible neanderthal contributions), lots of species have done it. Horizontal gene transfer is _the_ in thing in genetics at the moment. It does help explain a lot (even if it plays havoc with phylogeny).


I feel enlightend but as you don't know if this happens in theraphosids it not much use here.



> And then where? Fancy morphs (exc. _H. incei_ golds, they're awesome looking)?


Yes why not if you want to. I see some people who do this anyway and it is quite common. Red form murinus, large and small form lividium, normal and light form peerboomi just to name a few.



> Bugger that, we should be working on better husbandry before we start hybridising. It's far from perfect right now.


With all the captive breeding that goes on I would say husbandry is not really that bad at all. It is often not perfect but nothing is but it is very far from being bad. They are after all spiders and do not require a great deal, infact I would say they are pretty dam easy to look after and keep in good codition after you have read a basic book or two.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> Probably.
> 
> The man has a tendency towards being irritatingly right. You want to disagree due to the tone of the post, but he's 2 steps ahead :lol2: Hats off to the troll-king say I.


ah right so because i give an opinion that somewhat differs to you I am a troll king? screw you you jumped little turd.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

^^Hehe^^

Like clockwork


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> So don't hybridize with your rare males
> 
> 
> And did these become less scarce due to hybrids?
> ...


OK, yeah, we're at cross purposes here. I was answering your question of "why?", it was about hybrids.



> why on earth should you have to be bored of tarantulas to try out hybridizeing them? This is just another aspect of the hobby.


Difference of opinion then.



> Like I think I agreed on or? I wonder how many males and females have been lost with the hybrids that are in the hobby?


We did agree, the only difference was in our statements of the likelihood of things going awry. I suppose that could just be semantics.



> If there was enough variation in the hobby then no one would bother to introduce newly discovered species. BTW this is I why you lose most species in the hobby, as people are so concerntrated on the in new thing the "old species" go out of fashion and are just not bred anymore so often. It has hardly bog all to do with hybrids.


I don't deny this. Once again, I wasn't talking specifically about hybrids there



> No to me as your hobby stock will be just that hobby stock. They are then no good for classification or otherwise.
> 
> Well yes I would not be introducing any captive bred spiders into the wild in order to save them. (this is what you are talking about yes?)


Then you would watch as a species dies out for no reason that I can grasp. If you think there's a good reason, by all means tell me.



> Either way hybrids shouldn't (or I should say won't) effect them if you are serious about keeping your species "pure".


OK.



> I feel enlightend but as you don't know if this happens in theraphosids it not much use here.


It's just a useful thing to know and it stretches right from bacteria to the 5 kingdoms of eukaryotic life. However spider's might be less likely to use it as much of their speciation is driven by sexual compatibility.



> Yes why not if you want to. I see some people who do this anyway and it is quite common. Red form murinus, large and small form lividium, normal and light form peerboomi just to name a few.


Yeah, that one really is more of a personal thing. I dislike fancy breeding.



> With all the captive breeding that goes on I would say husbandry is not really that bad at all. It is often not perfect but nothing is but it is very far from being bad. They are after all spiders and do not require a great deal, infact I would say they are pretty dam easy to look after and keep in good codition after you have read a basic book or two.


We still have problems though. Once again, maybe a personal thing.



Baldpoodle said:


> ah right so because i give an opinion that somewhat differs to you I am a troll king? screw you you jumped little turd.


You misunderstand, that was actually aimed as a compliment. And it has nothing to do with differing opinions, no idea where you got that idea from. I know you like winding people up, and that you can do it while being wholly factual and accurate and I was complimenting you on that. Though it may have to be retracted in the face of your childish outburst there.

Also. Do you actually understand what "jumped up" means? If so, justify your use of it here. I'm not saying I'm not, I just don't see how it's a relevant insult.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I think it would be prudent at this stage in the discussion to segregate the notion that hobby material would be used for conservation purposes, and the theory of hybridisation in hobby material. Seperate again is the notion of hybrids in wild populations etc.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hedgewitch said:


> Having said that: horizontal gene transfer is an important part of evolution a few fertile hybrids can get some all important genes into a population, potentially saving it from extinction. Potentially hybrids could help in saving rarer Ts.


HGT is obtaining genetic material from another organism without being offspring; it's also quite rare in large Eukaryotes. Just my 2 cents, but I've not seen much published on this phenomenom outside of bacteria except some stuff on plants, and the stuff on transfering with infection. 

Hybrids are offspring, so this is direct surely rather than horizontal transfer?


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## OrigamiB (Feb 19, 2008)

I see little downsides to hybridization.... Most of the points against it seem to be personal opinion, which has little place in a debate.... You may not like "fancy breeding", but just because you don't like it does not mean it is a disadvantage. In any other area of the pet industry you will see this, and i'm yet to see any reason why hybridization would affect the offspring in any severe way yet.... 
End of the day they would most likely naturally breed in the wild anyway at some point down the line if it was not due to being seperated by ocean!


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

GRB said:


> HGT is obtaining genetic material from another organism without being offspring; it's also quite rare in large Eukaryotes. Just my 2 cents, but I've not seen much published on this phenomenom outside of bacteria except some stuff on plants, and the stuff on transfering with infection.
> 
> Hybrids are offspring, so this is direct surely rather than horizontal transfer?


Damn, you're right. What's the term I'm looking for then? I'm sure there is one.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hedgewitch said:


> Damn, you're right. What's the term I'm looking for then? I'm sure there is one.


Well to my mind fertile hybrids are just another example of _vertical_ gene transfer, subject to genetic drift and traditional selection pressures as is normal within species random mating. 

Hobby material has to be viewed with caution anyway - I'd suspect that much of the hobby stock is not mated randomly and there is probably more than a few instances of sibling matings and such what with males living so much longer than you'd expect in the wild and power fed females maturing quite quickly. 

I still don't see the point in making hybrids, but I can't stop anyone and it's interesting enough as a thought exercise. At least here I can discuss factors other than simple mendelian ratios too...


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