# new laws coming in to affect



## mike mc (Nov 27, 2006)

just browsing another forum and it said theres new legislation coming in to force soon,im not very clued up on it but it was along the lines of class b listed animals rainbow boas,carpet pythons etc,if you cannot prove the parents were legally imported of the offspring you keep,you can face up to 10 years prison.its not up to the shop,its down to the keeper,has any 1 else heard of it,im not sure wether i can post a link to the other forum due to forum rules


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

I think it'll be fine for you to post the link.. its more for the information than publicising the other forum! I havent heard about this one.. would be interested to have a proper look at the proposal.


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## mike mc (Nov 27, 2006)

Control Of Trade In Endangered Species Regulations - Livefood UK Forum


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

Are you worried that something you have was imported illegally? Its just to stop illegal imports, which seems reasonable enough to me. Your only going to be found guilty under this act if u know u are going to buy something thats not legally imported. If you dont realise its illegally imported then u wont have the neccessary mens rea and u wont be guilty of it. I wouldnt get so worried about it, i dont think anyone on the forum deals with people like that anyway.


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

And just to point out, this law u linked has been in practice for 2 years, its an amendment of an older law that wasnt covering the problem of illegal importations.

I dont see why people on livefoods found this act disappointing. Why you wouldnt want such a law in place i do not know. Do people want to buy illegally imported animals? If you have no idea you have bought an illegally imported animal you wont be found guilty of anything under this act, its only if u are aware that its available through a criminal act. 

Here is the link to the proper bill that was actually legislated in july 2005 so then u can see it wasnt intending to put limits to the decent reptile keepers, but just to stop illegal imports. The Control of Trade in Endangered Species (Enforcement) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 its a very good bill and it went through the process of legislation very fast. I think its fair to say its probably done a very good job for the reptile world rather than being a bad thing


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## mike mc (Nov 27, 2006)

lol i didnt notice the date as it was up top on the forum page i thought it was new lol every rep ive got is captive bred,i wont buy wc or cf let alone illegal


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

I have a wc lizard and presumably CF boscs. I presume they arent illegal because they are from what i think of as reputable suppliers that many pet shops use, though because i cant be sure of that, if the supplier was found to be guilty of illegally importing, i wouldnt be guilty of anything unless i knew that they were illegally imported. 

Basically, unless you know you are dealing with illegal importers, or even have a suspicion of it, you shouldnt buy anything from them as u can also be prosecuted. If you have no idea, you wont be found guilty of anything.


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

I think what they are worried about is whether the burden of proof is on them to prove an animal is legal (difficult in the case of private/show/internet sales), or on the authorities to prove it was imported illegally, and whether their animals can be impounded whilst investigations are made.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Ok firstly... nothing has come of these regs in terms of not being able to keep Annex B species. It may do yet, but it seems to have been dropped for now in favour of pushing for more changes to the AWB.

Blazey unfortunately you are absolutely incorrect in thinking that you would be protected because you bought from " a reputable source" or you "werent aware they were brought in illegally". 
Under this law you woud have no protection using these defences. The main problem with this act is that it would be worded to state YOU (not your suppplier or anyone else) would have to prove the animals were imported legally. Ignorance is NOT a defence (this has also been brought into the new animal welfare bill too!)
You cannot possibly prove Annex B animals are legally imported even if they are because DEFRA doesnt issue paperwork for ANY annex B animals not leaving the EU. All subsequent generations of these animals would also be considered under COTES regs as being illegal and could be confiscated.

So you see.. it makes no difference whether the animals are legally obtained or not, in the eyes of customs and excise theyre not legal because you dont have paperwork (because defra dont issue it!) and as such they can be seized.

Like I say this hasnt come through (the legislation you linked to isnt the same as what was discussed on the livefoods thread) and I would be surprised if it did now considering the issues with regards to human rights and the current concentration on animal welfare and transport regulations.


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

It clearly states that if you have proof you asked the supplier if the animal was legal and they sign some form of paperwork that it was legal then you would not be held liable for the crime. If people are buying animals that are obviously to their knowledge endangered then it is up to them to find out that sort of information or they themselves are basically saying they dont care if their is a risk of illegal importation and then why shouldnt they be held liable? 
Most people on these forums tend to like to know where their reptiles are from when they are buying them. I assume that when people buy, for example, rare snakes, they want to see paperwork of where it is imported from and if its legal and so on, rather than just buy it not knowing. If people dont want to check that for the sake of a cheap bargain and dont give a damn if its illegally imported or not then they are just as bad as the importers themselves.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

yeh i think if you had it in writing urd be clear, i dont think pendlehog saw u say that to be honest.
But if it was just "i was told" or "they say all thier stuff is cb" i dont think itd hold up.

What wild caught lizard do you have blazey?
and when u presum a cf bosc, does it mean u have not got paperwork to say its not wild caught? i dont think many boscs that are about are wild caught ,and ours was captive bred locally not farmed which is nice to know.


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

wild caught lizard is my night lizard. I dont own the paperwork for the bosc but i got in touch with the suppliers when i worked at the pet shop and they confirmed they were CF hatchlings, which i have no reason to doubt as they are reputable and openly say what animals are WC and what arent. 
I linked the actual bill in an above post which says when people will or will not be held liable for owning illegally imported animals.

Also dean, theres a topic on CB forums where people are discussing CB boscs as none of them have ever managed to do it, they may be grateful if u put them in touch with ur supplier. I presume u have paperwork for urs?


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## mike mc (Nov 27, 2006)

shop near me said 9 times out of 10 people who say the boscs are captive bred are talking out there backsides,he said they are always cf


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

mike mc said:


> shop near me said 9 times out of 10 people who say the boscs are captive bred are talking out there backsides,he said they are always cf


 
i've heard similar here too


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

I think Fixx and Loulou said they have successfully got their boscs to mate but i think they said their one surviving egg didnt make it.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

DeanThorpe said:


> yeh i think if you had it in writing urd be clear, i dont think pendlehog saw u say that to be honest.
> But if it was just "i was told" or "they say all thier stuff is cb" i dont think itd hold up.


Under current law that would be acceptable (in fact no one would ever ask), BUT under the laws we're actually talking about (those the government wanted to bring in last year) you would NOT be in the clear.

Has everyone actually read the WHOLE livefoods thread? Nils and Eddie covered all this... Say you have paperwork, can you prove the animal you have paperwork for is the one you have in your possession? Nope you cant.. the paperwork doesnt hold microchip numbers or anything else for individual identification of animals. Besides which there would never have been any paperwork.

In addition, even if the animal is LEGALLY IMPORTED the supplier cant prove it has been (because DEFRA dont give you certificates for annex B animals) so even if you're in the clear, the supply of legally sourced animals will stop. You will also be unable to buy CB from the UK because the breeders couldnt prove the adults or original stock were legally imported, thus all offspring would be illegal by proxy.

I spoke to DEFRA about this last year and also emailed my MP and this was all explained to me by both parties.

Actually I dont know why Im bothering to explain, because the proposed legislation on the livefoods thread never came into force as described.

If anyone wants more info on this they would be better off contacting Nils or Eddie Munt.


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

Deans referring to my above link off the website listing all bills passed through parliament in our legal system. You can search every act of parliament on that website and every bill that is currently in either HOL or HOC at this moment in time. It has dates of when it was proposed and when it was passed.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I forsee a grave problem in that if what Blazey says is true and you can just get the shop to sign something saying it's captive bred or whatever.. how can that be proved? No chippings, no markings, no identifications...

And how does the shop prove that what the wholesaler said was true? How do they prove that what a private breeder or a reseller said was actually true? If there is no governing body identifying animals and issuing paperwork then there is any point down the line where someone can tell a lie, whether purposefully or just because they didn't realise.

So to implement a law requiring paperwork for certain species already well established in the UK is going to just cause havoc surely (and i haven't read the livefood thread.. sorry), because no one can 100% prove anything about the animals they have unless they actually bred them themselves, and somewhere down the line you're not going to be able to prove the parentage.

I hope that if this comes into effect it will only affect newborns and that any existing animals will be issued paperwork without having to prove heritage, because to prove heritage on species that you bought 5, 10, even 20 years ago off some guy in the local pet shop that's now moved on, would be impossible.


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## mike mc (Nov 27, 2006)

sounds like another step at stopping people keeping reps,how can any 1 prove if the paper work was never issued


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

You wont have to prove it with your reptiles you have kept for years already, as new laws dont work that way. If you raped your wife 50yrs ago u wont be guilty of it now as at the time, there was no law saying it was forbidden.

Nobody on the forum should have any reason to be worried, i doubt any of u deal with dodgy dealers who cant provide paperwork to show where they got their animals from.


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## mike mc (Nov 27, 2006)

all mine were bought from a shop so im sure the owner could provide info if needed,if it comes to it thou


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## dinofred1 (Jan 13, 2007)

will this afect me i am buying a ig in a few weeks


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

mike mc said:


> all mine were bought from a shop so im sure the owner could provide info if needed,if it comes to it thou


No they couldnt. No one seems to have picked up on what Ive been saying... the laws would say anything on Annex B has to have the correct paperwork to say it is legally imported.
This "correct paperwork" is an Article 10. DEFRA will NOT issue article 10s to Annex B species, only annex A. The only time you could get one is if you transported it out of the EU. Obviously this is absurd, hence the law would be ridiculous.

Therein lies the problem, it would basically be a back door ban on a large number of species.

Anyhow, I shall repeat... this has not come into law and it doesnt look like anyone is pushing for it right now, so hopefully it will be forgotten in the fullness of time.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

dinofred1 said:


> will this afect me i am buying a ig in a few weeks


Nope Dinofred, the law isnt actually in place, it was only a suggestion last year. The actual regulations that came in didnt work the way it was suggested they might, so you are fine to buy your ig without any additional paperwork.


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

They decided against putting limitations on certain species and just made a law that reinforces sentencing on illegal importations. Theres nothing about specific species, though importing endangered species illegally probably hold a higher sentence. 

I've already linked the current law on it earlier on which has been standing since 2005. They decided against some of the earlier proposals and basically outlined sentences for the crime of illegal importations more than making new amendment to what species where classed as endangered. Your typical iguana isnt endangered, though some species are and if caught illegally importing them, the sentence would be much stricter than if u imported a leopard gecko illegally.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

Iguana iguana (the green iguana) is Annex B which classes it as "threatened"


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

I always thought threatened was a completely different level than endangered?


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Blazey said:


> wild caught lizard is my night lizard. I dont own the paperwork for the bosc but i got in touch with the suppliers when i worked at the pet shop and they confirmed they were CF hatchlings, which i have no reason to doubt as they are reputable and openly say what animals are WC and what arent.
> I linked the actual bill in an above post which says when people will or will not be held liable for owning illegally imported animals.
> 
> Also dean, theres a topic on CB forums where people are discussing CB boscs as none of them have ever managed to do it, they may be grateful if u put them in touch with ur supplier. I presume u have paperwork for urs?


Why the heck would i have paperwork for a BOSC? and it is captive bred, in essex and i bought it from a shop, and altho i couldnt tell you who bred it or how many ppl do breed them in captivity i know for a fact its not even that rare [well its rare as adult boscs arent that common as theyv only recently become super popular but for the ppl who keep adult pairs its quite common]
Also for 20 years or summit they have been being bred, in captivity in florida in outside circular shaped cages... by what is it... bartlett and bartlett? among loads of others so i think ur seriously mistaken with that one Blazey.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

i think threatened is just a little...er..less that endangered..im not sure tho lol... prolly used as the same as in principal they are.


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## Blazey (Apr 30, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> Why the heck would i have paperwork for a BOSC? and it is captive bred, in essex and i bought it from a shop, and altho i couldnt tell you who bred it or how many ppl do breed them in captivity i know for a fact its not even that rare [well its rare as adult boscs arent that common as theyv only recently become super popular but for the ppl who keep adult pairs its quite common]
> Also for 20 years or summit they have been being bred, in captivity in florida in outside circular shaped cages... by what is it... bartlett and bartlett? among loads of others so i think ur seriously mistaken with that one Blazey.


Didnt u ask me if i had paperwork? Why would i have it then either :bash: 
People on acptivebred forums where discussing breeding in captivity the other day, none of them have done it successfully, though others have bred other species, and none of them know any contacts in the UK who have successfully done it. I didnt mention other countries managing to breed them in captivity.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

PendleHog said:


> Iguana iguana (the green iguana) is Annex B which classes it as "threatened"


It is... endangered is Annex A, whereas Annex B is usually considereed "threatened" instead. Two totally different groupings.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Blazey said:


> Didnt u ask me if i had paperwork? Why would i have it then either :bash:
> People on acptivebred forums where discussing breeding in captivity the other day, none of them have done it successfully, though others have bred other species, and none of them know any contacts in the UK who have successfully done it. I didnt mention other countries managing to breed them in captivity.


 
grr... u sad u had or ppl should have paperwork stating its not wild caught.. i didnt... so i thought u might have it...as u are the one who said ppl would be stupid not to have it...

just cos none of the members of captivebred forums have done it doesnt mean it hasnt been done in the uk.. like i said.. it has. i have a captive bred bosc.. from a shop via a breeder in the uk ... not a farm in africa.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

PendleHog said:


> It is... endangered is Annex A, whereas Annex B is usually considereed "threatened" instead. Two totally different groupings.


 
cool, makes sense.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

there can be little doubt that in this over regulated country these proposed laws will be resurrected at the bidding of animal rights groups who have the governments ear and donate so much cash to all the parties,the fact is that CITES papers such as the ones in front of me for some of my animals are pretty much worthless as they dont pertain to the actual animals listed,merely species and the number imported/exported,there fore as far as HM customs are concerned no captive animals can be proven to be legal,add to this the fact that all Australian animals in private hands are held illegally anyway and its clear that at some point in the future this will be used against us and at that point no one will be able to prove that their animals are legal.
regards gaz


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

but in a practical sense how could this be enforced. This hypothetically means everybody from private keepers to london zoo would have to surrender their animals on masse if this law was ever passed, and once they're surrendered what happens to them then, are they to be returned to their country of origin for release into the wild perhaps?


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

if it comes to pass then you can bet that no one in government or the animal rights will give a monkeys what happens to the animals just so long as we are not allowed to keep them,this is their stated aim and thats what they will continue to press for,dont forget that the RSPCA has £85,000,000 in assets to use on this and groups such as PETA have very much more,pound notes get new legislation far more effectively than reasoned arguments,regardless of whether the laws are deeply flawed or not,have been a few instances already where AR groups have bent this governments ear enough to get new legislation which after the fact even the police refuse to enforce due to complications and flaws.
only one thing you can be certain of is that AR groups will work on this relentlessly and with money no object,lets not forget they do nothing else and employ the top lawyers and barristers to get things done,while the rest of us have to work/look after animals/worry about bills/look after kids etc etc etc.
regards gaz


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

the scariest bit is that it would probably only take one "incident" that was well publicised enough and given the right media spin to force a law like this through.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

doubt if it will even need that,eventually the squeaky wheel gets the grease and AR groups can well afford to be very noisy.
i have been up against them on a different issue,they are single minded,violent and very savvy about using the law and media for their own ends,one thing they dont give two hoots for is animal welfare,the same faces turn up at all the protests and sabotage attempts,the same people appear in court time and again,sort of a rent a mob,what we are facing here is a section of society who hate everything we do and will stop at nothing to destroy our way of life,they have members serving up to 17 years for bombings and these are the people you are eventually going to encounter camped out at shows and outside pet shops etc,anyone naive enough to think they can reason with this sort of person had best be prepared to meet some sort of assault(spitting is a favourite) escalating to a good kicking and death threats sometimes arson or worse,these are the people who dug up that guinea pig farmers dead mother and beheaded her,bet that saved a lot of animals!
PS i forgot,covering litters of puppies with varnish and luring hounds to be killed on train tracks and motorways also featured in their tactics last time,funny i though dogs were living creatures too,apparently im wrong on that one.


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

how do the laws affecting terrorist groups factor into this? Because it could be argued that reptile enthuasists are a minority group (well we certainly don't have representation in parliment thats for sure!!) and that attacks like the ones you described would be indicitive of suppressing a minority and discrimination which as far as I'm aware is something that you CAN do something about.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

At the end of the day they can afford much better legal representation than reptile keepers.. their resources are almost limitless with the RSPCA acting for them behind the scenes. It doesnt matter what they do wrong, unfortunately money can usually buy freedom.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

how do the laws affecting terrorist groups factor into this? Because it could be argued that reptile enthuasists are a minority group (well we certainly don't have representation in parliment thats for sure!!) and that attacks like the ones you described would be indicitive of suppressing a minority and discrimination which as far as I'm aware is something that you CAN do something about.
the ones doing time for bombings were all sentenced under anti terroroism laws,in the USA they have introduced laws specifically to curb the AR mob,pity we cant have that here too.
Pendlethang has put the whole thing a bit more succinctly than i have,pretty much sums up the current situation
regards gaz


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