# Ammonia help



## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Made a water change last night, 30%.

Noticed my Betta's fin rot has been improving but he has some discolouration in front of one of the gills. Almost as if it's slightly raised but not in any noticeable way.

Measured the obvious. Ammonia 0.5ppm! Grrr. How? Nitrites were 0 and Nitrates were 10ppm, but I had just dosed ferts.

40% water change.

Ammonia still 0.5%. Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 0.

What's going on? Dodgy reading? Am I colourblind? I'm worried I'm slowly killing my fish but I can't see what I'm doing wrong. He's still building huge bubble nests everyday and acts completely the same as the day I got him.

100% stumped. I know test kits can be unreliable, but something is effecting his health :/


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Could the fin rot meds have killed off my bacteria?


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Have you tested the water straight out of the tap?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

0, 0, 0. Nothing's changed from the tap.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

Silly question here so don't be offended, have you tested your tapwater?


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

What ferts? and what meds?


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

Doh !
Have you got any bacteria in a bottle to try and boost your filter properly?


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

The usual causes of fin rot are stress or too cold water temp or bacteria in the tank such as rotting food or a combination of the three.

What size is the tank? Do you have gravel? Any other tank mates? Temp of water?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

There's a big thread on the fin rot issue already.

Everything is as it should be. No rotting food, clean filter, 27/28C, 23L, heavily planted, 200lph internal, no dead leaves......


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I can't see it being stress if he's constantly making bubble nests right?


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

May i ask the ph of the water?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

7.5 ph


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

He may still make bubble nests if he is stressed or unwell.That just might mean that he is not stressed to the point of lethargy.What meds was it?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

littlefoot said:


> He may still make bubble nests if he is stressed or unwell.That just might mean that he is not stressed to the point of lethargy.What meds was it?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

This bloody fish :devil:

I'm never getting a Betta again.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

What is the size of the tank? I know you said 23l but what are the dimentions?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

littlefoot said:


> What is the size of the tank? I know you said 23l but what are the dimentions?


It's 40cm tall by 30cm wide by 20cm deep, or thereabouts.

I've had perfect readings until I added the treatments.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

TBH I'm surprised the plants alone can't deal with the fish waste. *sigh*


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

How long has the fin rot problem been going on ?

Are you positive that none of the plant leaves are rotting etc?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

littlefoot said:


> How long has the fin rot problem been going on ?


It started around 2 weeks ago. It's been improving since adding medication.

Yes positive, all my plants grow well and every time I feed I check for excess food/vegetation etc. I'm vigilant to the point of being obsessive.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

How long have you had the fish?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Coming up to 4 months.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Not sure what my course of action should be.

I'm happy to make water changes if the tank cycled has failed, but it still doesn't really help me much, as the fin rot isn't completely cured. On top of that, it really puts me off my natural planted tank if I can't even look after a Betta with a filtered and heavily planted tank.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

Have you got a lot of plants in that small tank?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

littlefoot said:


> Have you got a lot of plants in that small tank?


Yes, loads.


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## littlefoot (Dec 6, 2007)

So many plants in such a small tank could be an issue.For the fin rot i recommend Esha 2000 it is brilliant stuff.Be careful to use the correct dosage and follow the directions carefully.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Why would they be an issue?

Ammonia now reading 0ppm


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

I see it's 0 now... so I guess this doesn't matter and is no help. BUT... just a qiucky. Take it it's a yellow colour for ammonia? Is your water more yellow now as the tanins build up? And is that causing trouble reading the actual colour?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> I see it's 0 now... so I guess this doesn't matter and is no help. BUT... just a qiucky. Take it it's a yellow colour for ammonia? Is your water more yellow now as the tanins build up? And is that causing trouble reading the actual colour?


No, there was a clear difference between the current readings and the ones earlier today.

I have no tannins in my water, I have no hardscape.

Tested the tap water again, all 0ppm.

There's no way I could conceive the ammonia rising to 0.5ppm under 24 hours after a water change unless the treatment has killed my cycle.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

Could you have possibly got the nitrite and ammonia test tubes mixed up last time you used them. They may not have been washed thoroughly and have contaminated them thus giving a false reading. 
I'm clutching at straws but it's strange how it's gone again so quick.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

markn said:


> Could you have possibly got the nitrite and ammonia test tubes mixed up last time you used them. They may not have been washed thoroughly and have contaminated them thus giving a false reading.
> I'm clutching at straws but it's strange how it's gone again so quick.


This is what I thought, so I washed them all out thoroughly.

I would dismiss it as a false reading if my Betta was doing well. I'm getting fluctuations from 0.5ppm to 0.0ppm without actually changing anything.

I'll test again in the morning, not much else I can do.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

It's annoying me now too so it must be really doing your box in. 
Are you still treating with the fin rot meds? I'm just wondering if there are ammonia traces in it. I've never used it so I can't check the ingredients. 
I know a lot of the meds damage the bacteria but for ammonia to keep raising and lowering is baffling.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

markn said:


> It's annoying me now too so it must be really doing your box in.
> Are you still treating with the fin rot meds? I'm just wondering if there are ammonia traces in it. I've never used it so I can't check the ingredients.
> I know a lot of the meds damage the bacteria but for ammonia to keep raising and lowering is baffling.


I'm actually going crazy.

No I've stopped, as I noticed improvement. The plan was to monitor and see if I need to dose again. The "thing" near his gill doesn't match the description for any sort of ammonia poisoning.

So utterly confused. If ammonia, nitrites and nitrates were all up I'd just say yeah, clearly the treatments have killed the cycle, but it's been ages since I medicated and there's no nitrites.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

What's the shelf life of these kits? Had mine over a year.....


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

RIGHT.

Firstly, thanks to all who have been helping me.

I may have found the problem. When you treat with fin rot medication, you are supposed to remove the carbon from the filter! Did I? No, I didn't know I had any carbon in my filter. Just to double check I took it apart again, no carbon just a large sponge. Oh wait....what's this, a piece of the foam comes out the middle......Oh, loads of carbon. 

WHO HIDES CARBON IN THE MIDDLE OF A SPONGE!???

So I dunno, it may explain why there are still new signs appearing, maybe some of the meds worked but it didn't kill it off completely due to the carbon. I'm going to remove the carbon and dose meds again. It's been a week so according to the instructions that's fine.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

:bash:
Hope this solves your problems mate. Good luck.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Me too.

Cheers.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> I see it's 0 now... so I guess this doesn't matter and is no help. BUT... just a qiucky. Take it it's a yellow colour for ammonia? Is your water more yellow now as the tanins build up? And is that causing trouble reading the actual colour?


 
This is a bloomin good call


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I don't know why people bother with ammonia test kits on the whole they are notoriously difficult to read and not particularly accurate .

Nitrite is far more of an issue in freahwater tanks and should be concentrated on as ammonia readings can be a red herring.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Graylord said:


> I don't know why people bother with ammonia test kits on the whole they are notoriously difficult to read and not particularly accurate .
> 
> Nitrite is far more of an issue in freahwater tanks and should be concentrated on as ammonia readings can be a red herring.


I've never trusted test kits at all....It's only because he seems ill.

I'd happily throw the kits in the bin after tonight for all the good they've done.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> RIGHT.
> 
> Firstly, thanks to all who have been helping me.
> 
> ...


 
could be the carbon insert caused the problem in the first place .
Carbon adsorbs not absorbs which means when its reached capacity it can then lob back into the tank what its been pulling out for the last few months causing short term water issues .

Carbon is ok for short term use for pulling out meds and giving gin clear water but in my opinion shouldn't be used long term unless its changed very regularly .


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Graylord said:


> could be the carbon insert caused the problem in the first place .
> Carbon adsorbs not absorbs which means when its reached capacity it can then lob back into the tank what its been pulling out for the last few months causing short term water issues .
> 
> Carbon is ok for short term use for pulling out meds and giving gin clear water but in my opinion shouldn't be used long term unless its changed very regularly .


That's a great point, had I know there was carbon in there I would have pulled it!

I'll do that tomorrow then.


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

Have you considered a seachem ammonia alert? They are more accurate than test kits and you just leave them in the tank so you always have a visual check for ammonia. Lasts for a year, I've got them on all my tanks. Cheapest on eBay at the moment is SEACHEM Ammonia Alert - FREE P&P in UK . | eBay

Although don't allow algae to build up on the back of it and give you a heart attack as you think it's suddenly showing green!

That treatment shouldn't have affected the filter, IMO. Maybe it did knock it back a bit but it shouldn't have caused too much damage. Whenever I've had random ammonia readings from an established tank it's (usually) turned out to be a contaminated test tube. The sneaky carbon sounds like a possible suspect though  Are you still getting an ammonia reading? I use Prime as my dechlorinator, you can use it to detox ammonia in an emergency too. It's quite concentrated so you'd need something like a medical syringe to measure it out as you'd be looking at about 0.5ml for 25 litres (ish, from memory, not to be relied on!).


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Tap water: 0,0,0

Tank water: 0,0,0

Carbon removed.

Made a small water change aswell, about 15%.

Never seen those before, tbh I was waiting until Seneye released a smart phone app!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Never seen those before, tbh I was waiting until Seneye released a smart phone app!


I was looking at these... but for marines the stuff they measure is retarded. I'm never going to have detectable levels of ammonia in my tank unless something major happens... so I really don't see a need for an expensive electronic ammonia measuring device?! Or am I being stupid...?

I can't remember what else it measures, but I remember it being useless to me.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

AshMashMash said:


> I was looking at these... but for marines the stuff they measure is retarded. I'm never going to have detectable levels of ammonia in my tank unless something major happens... so I really don't see a need for an expensive electronic ammonia measuring device?! Or am I being stupid...?
> 
> I can't remember what else it measures, but I remember it being useless to me.


I dunno, never looked at the marine version, or is there just one version? I was basically waiting until it was less crap.


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## INJAF (Nov 12, 2011)

There are three versions of the Seneye; home, pond and reef. Although from reading the reviews etc. I think the home and pond are technically the same but one's for tanks and one's for outside.

New seneye could save your fishes' lives | News | Practical Fishkeeping

I was quite hopeful about it until I realised it doesn't do nitrate and that's the only thing I would pay a lot to get an accurate test for seeing as liquid tests from different manufacturers can give different results from the same sample of water, not to mention the joys of interpreting the colour ...

The Seachem wotsit is good though, only reads toxic ammonia as opposed to ammonium which means it doesn't give false readings if you have to use an ammonia locking product in an emergency.

Has it settled back to normal now?


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

I've only come to this thread, so haven't read all posts.

Anyway, although I believe in getting a mature tank for the fish, I also would be a big supporter of always having a pack of ammonia-removing zeolites at hand. They do a good job, and a few euro/pounds is not much to splash out for any emergencies.

On the unionised ammonia test kits, there is a problem that you need to make sure the pH and temperature do not drop in the test sample before doing the test (especially if keeping in alkaline conditions and at 28 degrees C) else you get a false reading for reason different to those encountered with ammonia-locking solutions.

I keep my Betta's in very peaty water and use ammonia removing zeolite in the tanks. 

ian


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Hi Paul,

Fwiw, I find that Betta's, esp the females are one of the more difficult fish to deal with atm. To me they are heading into that grouping of species that includes guppies and dwarf gouramis from certain countries/suppliers, that have been intensively bred in all the wrong ways, bombarded with antibiotics and chemicals to the point that they have resistance to nothing as soon as they are out of that soup.

We have had some success with some batches,getting them into lower pH with tannins but not good to be having to try and fight those kind of battles.

Just mhe but there are a lot of really dodgy bettas, guppies and Dwarf Gouramis out there. 

Chris

Must be time I was due a retail "re-education course"..


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for the advice!

Yes all results are normal, nitrates haven't risen at all.

Victor still isn't well however, the dorsal fin is still improving but there's some splits in his tail. I'v treated him again, hopefully with the removal of carbon we shall see a definite improvement.

I'm thinking of adding peat and alder cones, opinions? Should I wait until recovery or should I add some now to help? I'm worried that if I add now the Ph swing may be unhelpful.

I've always avoided dwarf gouramis and guppies for that reason, should have done the same with Bettas.


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Repair of fins in young siamese fighters is usually quite good, but not always as good in older specimens.

Just wondering is this a Half Moon fighter? sometimes you get a line of fish where the rays in the fins extend the fins to such an extent that it rips the fins (and they do not repair).

There are some pretty awful siamese fighter specimens out there.....but there are also some stunning lines available.

Getting a decent line of fighters is time consuming and expensive (especially as you usually end up having to separate males and select the next one to breed). So, many breeders probably do not bother with that part and sell on whatever muts they have (and 1 fish = 1 unit profit). 

Half Moons are a pain as the good males are often crap at mating.....the large healthy tail often hinders wrapping around a female. 

It is worth hunting down really good sources of siamese fighters.....'cause if you start with a cack fish then it will always be cack.

I'd advise that when buying look at the gills (for curling), and look for a broad base to the dorsal fin and caudal fin. If the gills are curled or if the fin bases are small then leave the fish where it is in the shop as it will never do well.

ian


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## Sandsifter (Sep 8, 2011)

Only advice would be to stop obsessing and thinking about messing. If its building a bubble nest its up for a bit of life whatever your test kits tell you.

Just leave well be, feed "Victor" good quality food and send your test kits to the bottom draw for the festive period. Do not upset things by attempting pH changes and adding "medications" unless you have some idea what you are intending those meds to do.

Hope that helps.

Chris

BTW not all the Guppies or Dwarf Gouramis out there are awful. There's some lovely stuff about too. Use your eyes and trust your own judgement m8


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Just one thing to add re the positive ammonia test (Ian already covered that some kits test BOTH free ammonia and ammonium), some aquarium plant foods (all in one ones that contain macro ferts in addition to trace) contain sources of ammonia, Urea is a popular additive for aquarium plant foods and is a source of ammonia for example.

Pretty sure you are using dry salts though? You're not using Urea instead of KNO3 are you? I know I did some trials with small amounts of Urea once (it stops the wrinkly leaves you can get with overuse of KNO3), but stopped as it wasn't great for my livestock.

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Yes dry salts and I've slowly cut down aswell. It's only 11w of light so I'm barely using any.

I always suck up any food that sinks to the bottom.


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