# Lighting & heating



## pm8

The thing that currently concerns me most about tortoise housing is the heating/lighting setup.

Typically, modern tortoise table 'starter sets' use an all in one light - combining UV (A&B), heat and light. I have eyesight problems myself and some knowledge of how light can affect human vision (though I accept that my knowledge of tortoise vision is very limited). Even if a tortoise's eyes are better able to tolerate high levels of brightness than humans, and I have found no evidence that they can, I am struggling to come to terms with the idea that having an 80+ watt bulb as little as 12" from them for 8 -14 hours a day can be good for their vision. I note that it is recommended that a reflector is used for these bulbs (as is usually proved with kits), but that the reason for this is not only to concentrate the UV rays on the basking spot, but also to protect human eyes (which is likely to be at a much greater distance from this light source for a much shorter period of time) - no mention that the tortoises eyes may also need some protection. I can find little to suggest that much research has been done into the effects that long term exposure to such lights have on tortoises vision, although some forums mention tortoises with visual or eye defects without suggesting a cause. Additionally the very intense and concentrated heat spot that these lights provide can result in local tissue damage - especially in large species where the hot spot can only cover a small area of their bodies, whilst leaving other areas too cold ref: www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

I have had a number of different animals, but never a tortoise. I fully understand the need for heat and UV lighting. It would seem that ceramic heaters can provide a more rounded heating spot covering the whole of the tortoise's body. Additionally a separate UV strip light of around 25watts can meet the tortoises UV requirements and is spread over a larger area without providing such overwhelming concentrated brightness to the possible detriment of the tortoise vision and without the risk of localised tissue damage that an intensely heated sport can cause.

I appreciate that it is not going to be possible to replicate the ideal environmental effects that natural sunlight provides on a indoor tortoise table and whatever setup one provides is going to be a compromise.

Clearly there must have been much experimentation done which has led to the conclusion that the all in one bulb is the best solution for a tortoises wellbeing. However I cannot understand why this would in any way be better for the tortoise than my ceramic heater / uv strip light setup - what am I missing?


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## LiasisUK

MVB (the combined bulb you are talking about) are recommended as its very simple and people are inherently dumb. 'Use this, replace when its broken' End of. 

In terms of the best heating and lighting setup. A separate UVB light source (in the form of T5s) and heat source is best. Though I would not use a ceramic, you want to give them an actual basking spot using a halogen. Tortoises, and many diurnal reptile species, associate light with heat so a basking bulb is best for them. 
Add a ceramic on top of all of that if you need a heat source at night, the commonly sold Mediterranean species (hermanni, graeca etc) won't need this, certain tropical species will.


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## pm8

Liasis - thanks for your reply. I appreciate the fact that they need light as well as heat - would this light not be provided by the UV lamp? - I would anticipate him also receiving natural sunlight through a window. Why don't you recommend ceramic heaters? I am just trying to understand the rational of things


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Tortoises should be outdoors in the warmer months, subject to species - Indian Stars are not small though. Sunlight through a window is not sufficient.


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## pm8

Thank you for your input Sf&f. In an ideal world all animals would be free, birds in the sky, fish in the sea and tortoises roaming free about the countryside and BoJo wouldn't be trying to start a war with Russia. Referring to my opening question, what would be the best form of lighting - might a UVB lamp along with sunlight through a window be better for a tortoises eyes whilst still providing as good quality of artificial light that is available, bearing in mind that UVB lights don't just emit UVB, but light across a broad frequency spectrum as well. Would this combination of a UVB light and natural sunlight through a window better meet the safe requirements for a baby tortoise on a tortoise table during the winter than an all in one lamp? I would want to do the best for the little chap and if an all in one bulb is the best solution then that is what I would use - can you show me reasoned argument, that this is the case please?


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## LiasisUK

pm8 said:


> Liasis - thanks for your reply. I appreciate the fact that they need light as well as heat - would this light not be provided by the UV lamp? - I would anticipate him also receiving natural sunlight through a window. Why don't you recommend ceramic heaters? I am just trying to understand the rational of things


I mean as in they associate the light with the heat so will go towards it for the heat. Your T5 UV lamp should illuminate the entire enclosure, making there no distinguishable basking area, the halogen would provide a bright warm area within the light from the UVB bulb. 
I don't recommend ceramic heaters for *Mediterranean tortoises* for the exact reasons I said in my message... 'associate light with heat so a basking bulb is best for them'


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## pm8

Liasis - thanks for clarifying that - I can understand that now. I need to rethink things. I am concerned that the very bright combination lamps may be damaging to their eyes. What do you think?


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## SueBoyle

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Tortoises should be outdoors in the warmer months, subject to species - Indian Stars are not small though. Sunlight through a window is not sufficient.


Agreed, Windows do not allow uv penetration, so totally unsuitable. Many uvb lamps have been shown to give totally the wrong combination of heat/light, despite being very expensive. Bear in mind too that tortoises are still very much wild animals with incredibly strong instincts. They are born to roam, so to keep anything other than a hatchling on a table top setup is pretty much akin to keeping a dog in a kennel or a horse in a permanent stable........it’s never going to be happy and will become stressed, and stress leads to illness. I don’t see my tortoises between November and March, which is how they have evolved to live. Things haven’t changed for them in thousands of years, so to expect them to become indoor pets is never going to work long term. This isn’t a criticism you understand, just trying not to close the stable door before the horse has bolted 😉


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## pm8

Thanks for your advise SueBoyle. I am reconsidering whether I am able to properly provide for a tortoises needs.


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## LiasisUK

pm8 said:


> Liasis - thanks for clarifying that - I can understand that now. I need to rethink things. I am concerned that the very bright combination lamps may be damaging to their eyes. What do you think?


There is no evidence of this if the bubs are used correctly, and theres a lot of tortoises kept all across the UK with artificial light. 

Also, you say they are bright, light brightness is measured in lumens. A 14% (the highest percentage) T5 of the highest wattage has an output of 800 lumens. An average bright summer day may reach 100,000 lumens. You could run 2 T5 bulbs and an MVB and you wouldn't even get close to outside full sun light output.


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## pm8

After reviewing the comments received here and considering my circumstances I have decided not to get a tortoise. As I live in Scotland there are few days when I would think it was warm enough for a tortoise to be outside and as I rent my property there are limitations on what I can do with my garden. I still think this is an interesting subject. Incidentally I have updated my profile to list my current pets, so having discovered this forum, I may pop up in other sections on occasions.


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## purplepixie

pm8 said:


> After reviewing the comments received here and considering my circumstances I have decided not to get a tortoise. As I live in Scotland there are few days when I would think it was warm enough for a tortoise to be outside and as I rent my property there are limitations on what I can do with my garden. I still think this is an interesting subject. Incidentally I have updated my profile to list my current pets, so having discovered this forum, I may pop up in other sections on occasions.


Great to see someone who is a responsible keeper, good luck with the rest of your pets:0)


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## SueBoyle

LiasisUK said:


> There is no evidence of this if the bubs are used correctly, and theres a lot of tortoises kept all across the UK with artificial light.
> 
> Also, you say they are bright, light brightness is measured in lumens. A 14% (the highest percentage) T5 of the highest wattage has an output of 800 lumens. An average bright summer day may reach 100,000 lumens. You could run 2 T5 bulbs and an MVB and you wouldn't even get close to outside full sun light output.


There certainly is evidence LiasisUK I have personally recorded levels under combined lamps in excess of 10x uvb that is given by the sun, even in U.K. The only way to lessen this amount for the tortoise is to raise and angle the lamp to such a degree that’s you are obtaining low temperatures, insufficient for correct digestion and thermoregulation. The amount of poorly grown and brightly coloured carapaces in captive reared tortoises is sufficient evidence of this. The percentage of lumens is irrelevant in this case, what I am talking about is uvb exposure, something totally different altogether. I have always encouraged the use of brightness as this is what tortoises respond to, but running alongside uvb and heat, not altogether. Yes there are thousands of tortoises in the the U.K. reared under artificial lamps, there are also thousands of tortoises, especially youngsters requiring veterinary care. Just because there are thousands of incidences of any given way of husbandry does not mean this is the right example to follow........think of how many dogs, horses, rodents etc kept in outdated/unkind manners! There are thousands of them too sadly ☹


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## SueBoyle

pm8 said:


> After reviewing the comments received here and considering my circumstances I have decided not to get a tortoise. As I live in Scotland there are few days when I would think it was warm enough for a tortoise to be outside and as I rent my property there are limitations on what I can do with my garden. I still think this is an interesting subject. Incidentally I have updated my profile to list my current pets, so having discovered this forum, I may pop up in other sections on occasions.


Being in Scotland isn’t the issue outdoors though, it’s the amount of sunlight too. Tortoises thermoregulate by using the sunlight available, we just have to supplement in bad weather. The difference is than sun provides heat to a tortoise, even in cold weather, it’s how their carapace (upper shell) takes in and holds heat, known as thermoregulation. A tortoise outdoors on a cool but sunny day will feel warm to the touch, whereas a tortoise indoors in a room at 25 degrees c will still be cool to the touch, which is why we need separate heat lamps. I know a tortoise keeper on the East Coast of Scotland (brrr) who successfully keeps sulcata tortoises which are native to South Africa. Not cheaply as they are a large species, but possible nonetheless. Good luck


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## pm8

The sun must also be providing warmth as well as light for tortoises to be able to keep warm. There is a lot of light in the North Pole with very bright sunshine for long hours, but I don't think tortoises would do very well there! Thermoregulation for reptiles is the way in which they control their body temperatures ie they can sit under their basking hot spots (absorbing the heat) until they have reached their required temperatures and then move to cooler shadier areas once they have reached the desired temperature to stop them over heating so there is certainly a relationship between heat and light which the tortoises recognise. So if there if the heat from the sun is poor, even if the light output is strong, then they are never going to be able to reach their required body temperatures and thermal regulation is not going relevant. In their natural environment tortoises would receive both heat and light over a very wide area, and could choose natural shady areas to thermoregulate and escape from the bright light. If you go outside on a warm sunny day you can still see clearly and safely providing you do not look directly at the sun which is only taking up a tiny fraction of your visual field. However if you are indoors and stare at a light bulb for from a distance of 12 " for 10 hours, which is putting out minute amounts of light in comparison, then you would likely damage your eyes. This is my concern as mentioned in my initial post. 
. 
Here in Scotland it's not only cold but also very wet. I would love to have Sulcalas. I don't know how he keeps them, but I would imagine they must spend a considerable amount of their time in some sort of shelter, with supplementary heating and lighting.


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## SueBoyle

That’s not the case at all. Whereas we mammals would feel cold outdoors on a sunny cold day, a tortoise would become warm. This is due to the structure of the carapace and it’s ability to warm up in its unique way......its own little heat generator. We must always remember that there is no comparison between reptiles and humans where body heat retention is concerned, also the way eyes in different reptiles are constructed and have evolved to deal with sunlight. Even artificial uvb would be in excess to what a human could safely withstand. In the wild, tortoises spend a lot of time in the shade, as they can’t stand the continual heating from the sun. They will be found basking when the angle of the sun I see lower and therefore not so intense. No, you are correct that tortoises would not do well in the North Pole, again because of the angle of the sun. There’s a lot more to it than just heat and sunlight, which is why outdoor tortoises in the U.K. must be given the option of a greenhouse or cold frame with lamps, due to our different climate, not all reptiles are alike, yes they are cold blooded, but in native countries you are not going to see lizards and tortoises behaving in the same way at the same time of day. The Galápagos Islands on the equator for example illustrate this perfectly. The iguanas bask at far higher temps than the tortoises and at different times of day. 
Don’t get me wrong, I can totally understand where you are coming from, just after a fair bit of research and travelling to natural habitats have learned more than a book can tell me too. 
Several of my babies now live in Scotland, but didn’t go before the new owners were made aware of the need for greenhouses up there. Sadly one (at least) of my babies going to the north of England did not survive, because the owner was not prepared to put the time and effort in


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## pm8

Interesting - I must research more about this ..

Whereas smaller reptiles could be exposed to a higher temperature, that would quickly heat their entire bodies, and then seek shelter, where upon they would loose heat quite rapidly and so need to return to bask regularly, for a Galápagos tortoise such high temperatures may lead to localised hot spots just underneath their carapace causing them to seek shelter before the heat has had time to reach their core, which is why I would imagine they would look to bask at lower temperatures, but for longer periods.


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