# can you feed live mice in the uk ?



## mattandme2

can you feed live mice in the uk


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## kirsten

the simple answer is yes.


the slightly more complicated one, is it's frowned upon, although not illegal, it's best to be descrete about it if it's something you have to do.


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## Ssthisto

The simple answer is "yes, but you shouldn't unless you have to, because there's a chance that you could be the first test case for prosecution."


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## Chris18

my understanding is that it is illegal if you do it just because you can.
The animal eating the live mice have to be in a state where they will not take other alternatives such as snakes which refuse defrosted prey and will suffer if they don't get live prey (starve to death)


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## UrolithicTitan

In other countrys like germany and America you can just wal into a pet shop and buy a live mouse as livefood easily because that is the common way to feed rodents in these counteries. However, over here if you go into a pet shop and say I want a mouse for livefood for my pet snake for example they are more than likely going to turn you away.
So the answer is yes if you do it descretely and don't start telling everybody that you are feeding live rodents. O would not personaly recmmend it though as it can be a pain to get them back onto frozen thawed and there is a risk that the roden could do some damage to your pet. : victory:


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## NewtyBoy

If it is to simply satisfy your own desire to see a reptile devour a live mouse, then DON'T! However, if it's like Chris said and there is no other choice, then I'm sure there must be some kinder way to do it?


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## kirky1980

i dont kow why anyone would want to put a live rodent in with there reptiles its just asking for trouble realy


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## aidey07

i agree i dont see why you would want to feed a bearded dragon live mice :censor::devil::censor::devil:


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## Ssthisto

aidey07 said:


> i agree i dont see why you would want to feed a bearded dragon live mice :censor::devil::censor::devil:


Good point - I didn't see that this was in the lizards section straight away.

Generally speaking, I'd have thought there is no reason to feed a bearded dragon a live mouse when they will readily take live invertebrates (which do not have any legal grey area) and may well take defrosted pinky mice if you really think you've GOT to feed an insectivore a vertebrate prey treat.


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## cold blooded beast

Illegal in the U.K. . .? that I know of? NO. . .Morally sound? . . .at the keepers discretion. . . .Can you justify the reason WHY is is absolutely neccessary?. . .There is another perspective to consider. . .what IF the rodent gets the first bite in? . . .unlikely ,true,but NOT totally impossible. . .Purely on the basis of doing the best for My lizard I would have to be the last resort to trigger a hunting/feeding response,in an otherwise dying animal. . .
That is ONLY my opinion. . .there may be other scenarios that could be persuasive in forming a different opinion,not that I can think of at the moment though.
Marcus


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## Spikebrit

cold blooded beast said:


> Illegal in the U.K. . .? that I know of? NO. . .Morally sound? . . .at the keepers discretion. . . .Can you justify the reason WHY is is absolutely neccessary?. . .There is another perspective to consider. . .what IF the rodent gets the first bite in? . . .unlikely ,true,but NOT totally impossible. . .Purely on the basis of doing the best for My lizard I would have to be the last resort to trigger a hunting/feeding response,in an otherwise dying animal. . .
> That is ONLY my opinion. . .there may be other scenarios that could be persuasive in forming a different opinion,not that I can think of at the moment though.
> Marcus



It is not illigal in the UK just heavily froned upon. 

The leglislations is very grey, there are massive threads on this topic in the snake section. It is not illigal, and for all intense in purposes is totally legal, untill the first case that test the new leglislation we wont know one way or the other. 

Chris newman posted some brillant information on this in the general herp chat section. 

jay


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## cold blooded beast

Definitely no pun intended (not a funny subject after all)
BUT food for thought. . .divided opinions are bound to exist irrespective of legality


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## neonlinux

You sure can, but just keep it to yourself! 

Loose lips sink ships : victory:


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## McToons

House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Minutes of Evidence

Some interesting reading from Q162 onwards with Chris Newman putting forward some good comments.

I don't know of anything updated to this but this was back in 2004/05 sessions.


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## Annie92

i thought that it was an offence under some kind of animal legislation.. unless you have a vet note which is very and only places like zoos usualy get one! not sure though


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## kirsten

McToons said:


> House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Minutes of Evidence
> 
> Some interesting reading from Q162 onwards with Chris Newman putting forward some good comments.
> 
> I don't know of anything updated to this but this was back in 2004/05 sessions.



very interesting, thank you for that.


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## Spikebrit

Annie92 said:


> i thought that it was an offence under some kind of animal legislation.. unless you have a vet note which is very and only places like zoos usualy get one! not sure though


Nope, it is recomend that you only do so in cases of need. As the leglislation can be interprited that you have a duty of care to both animals. I.e. one not to cause unde suffereing to the feeder, and one not to cause unde suffering to the preditor (it wont eat frozen).

jay


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## snakeman8

Personally I dont have a problem with feeding live prey, as I think it represents the animals natural behaivour and, if live prey was as cheap as frozen food I would definitly feed live instead of frozen.

However I do disagree with feeding animals that dont need mice in their diet such as, bearded dragons that could just as happily live a healthy life on crickets.

Oliver,


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## Nightfirez

while i dont have problem with live feeding 

i do have an issue with an unproven law 

so takeing matters in to my own hands i sought out the advice of the local authorities concerned with the matter this was the reply i got 

Hi lee
I have spoken to an RSPCA Inspector regarding your query.
They have advised me that although it is illegal to feed live foods to reptiles it appears that your case is unusual. They recommend you visit a specialist reptile vet and ask his advice. He may be able to give you advice on how to train the snake to eat non-live food. If not then it may be acceptable for you to continue with the live feeding. It is recommended though that you get your visit to the vet recorded on file so that if you are questioned by the RSPCA at a later date you can prove you have taken all necessary steps to avoid feeding live foods.

I hope this helps and please call me on if you require further assistance.

Regards



Animal Welfare & Pest Control Officer


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## Spikebrit

Nightfirez said:


> while i dont have problem with live feeding
> 
> i do have an issue with an unproven law
> 
> so takeing matters in to my own hands i sought out the advice of the local authorities concerned with the matter this was the reply i got
> 
> Hi lee
> I have spoken to an RSPCA Inspector regarding your query.
> Th*ey have advised me that although it is illegal to feed live foods to reptiles* it appears that your case is unusual. They recommend you visit a specialist reptile vet and ask his advice. He may be able to give you advice on how to train the snake to eat non-live food. If not then it may be acceptable for you to continue with the live feeding. It is recommended though that you get your visit to the vet recorded on file so that if you are questioned by the RSPCA at a later date you can prove you have taken all necessary steps to avoid feeding live foods.
> 
> I hope this helps and please call me on if you require further assistance.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> 
> Animal Welfare & Pest Control Officer


Ask him top prove to you where it states this. As i can tell you there is no leglislation that directly indicates that this is illigal. 

Jay


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## Nightfirez

I’ll ask you to prove where it doesn’t 

as the law is currently unproven there is no precedent for either case so most will err on the side of caution until proven otherwise

Simple fact of the matter is with regards to my live feeders ive had them all checked out dotted the I’s and crossed the T’s of if someone decided to haul me over the coals for it the well tough i have done everything i can in my powers to avoid the situation


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## Spikebrit

Exactly my point, there is no leglislation that state live feeding is illigal only that animals must show natural behavious and be treated humanly. Im sure i dont need to quite the exact sections here. as we both know it can be argued either way, as there has been no court president

However, for a member of government (local parlement) to state that it is illigal implies that there has been, and that they have decided it is illigal. His reply should have stated that it is questionable etc. However, for him to state that it is illigal, he should be able to back it up, thus i would be interested to see how and what he uses to support such a claim. 

jay


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## Chris Newman

It might be worth pointing out to the Animal Welfare Officer the information from the RSPCA is factually incorrect. It is emphatically not illegal to feed live vertebrates to another in the UK. The RSPCA may well be ideologically opposed to this, which indeed they are. However, the RSPCA do not make laws in the UK that is the privilege of parliament, and parliament has seen fit not to make this illegal.

I have posted more detail on this issue in other posting on the subject, perhaps someone could make a link to this post.


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## Nightfirez

Frankly i think your missing my point im neither arguing for or against 

more a case of if you’re going to do it cover your arse just in case as has been suggested by a government office


espeshaly considering that the current law is unproven 



if you do or not is entirely in your own hands


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## Spikebrit

Nightfirez said:


> Frankly i think your missing my point im neither arguing for or against
> 
> more a case of if you’re going to do it cover your arse just in case as has been suggested by a government office
> 
> 
> espeshaly considering that the current law is unproven
> 
> 
> 
> if you do or not is entirely in your own hands


No one is saying otherwise. We all agree that untill a case goes to court documentation is the only way to do it safly and with confidence. 

However, the counciller stating it is illigal is entirly wrong, it is neither at the moment. Thus stating something is illigal when it is not it providing false information. Thus it might be worth pointing this out to him as it could get him into difficult situations. 

jay


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## Nightfirez

just someone else who is misinformed by the rspca

its a shame that governing body’s rely on there so called expert testimony so much


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## snakeman8

Lets be honest.
Providing you dont go shouting and telling everyone your feeding live food, no one is going to know.
Yes, people might get a bit suspicious that your constantly buying live animals but, they have no proof they are being used as food, unless you tell them.

So even if it does eventually get made illegal, it is a pointless law as it is so easy to sneak around it.
Im not proposing that everyone should feed live, I am simply stating how easy it is for people to carry on feeding live food even if it is made illegal.

Oliver,


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## Spikebrit

Nightfirez said:


> just someone else who is misinformed by the rspca
> 
> its a shame that governing body’s rely on there so called expert testimony so much


Agreed, why not take the time to educate them?

jay


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## kopstar

Only ever done it once and that was to get hatchling Blairs Kings to eat. I'd tried everyhting else but a live pinkie did the trick and they were happy on defrost from then on.


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## reece3174

It's a shame, it would be a lot cheaper to breed mice or rats for say a large monitor or snake. But i don't see the point, cats and dogs eat live animals all the time, the only difference is that they catch it on their own. We're not doing anything inhumane, but in a way just making things easier for them :whistling2:


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## Ssthisto

reece3174 said:


> It's a shame, it would be a lot cheaper to breed mice or rats for say a large monitor or snake.


Nothing stopping you breeding your own mice and rats for your snakes - it's just strongly advised that you humanely euthanise the mice/rats before they're used as food.


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