# "Free Range" Rodents?



## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

My partner raised the very good point the other day that I will not buy any animal produce raised in (in my opinion) a sub standard way so why don't I do the same when it comes to my animal food? The answer was because to be honest I hadn’t thought about it :blush:. 

However now I have I don't want to continue to buy mass produced rodents because you can bet your bottom dollar they are commercially bred in appalling conditions.

Does anyone know of a supplier that sells "free range" rodents?


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

frozen reptile do ethically bred

but not quite sure what you mean by free range, they cant have a big barn with rats running free lol


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

lol no obviously, thats why I put it in inverted coma.


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## oliwilliams (Feb 23, 2010)

Yeah,anyone who breeds their own. Always an option if you have time and space, you control how they are kept,bred and killed.


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

Thats true, but unfourtunatly i dont have the space or time to raise my own rodents. Good shout though


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

SilverSky said:


> frozen reptile do ethically bred
> 
> but not quite sure what you mean by free range, they cant have a big barn with rats running free lol


I think you mean this company ? Frozen Mice

They make vague statements on the website about their rodents being ethically raised, but no evidence of this is provided except the suggestion that C02 is used to kill them. But I think that is the industry norm anyhow ? 

If they kept them in larger sized cages with environmental enrichment (things to chew, wheels etc) then I would expect some photos on the website. 

I think Lacerta you have good reasons to be concerned. I suspect most rodent breeding for the reptile trade is done in a pretty appalling way.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I have just written to the company about this (asking them how there standards are better than others in the industry)


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## LizardFTI (Dec 2, 2006)

I looked into this before, but even ordering from frozen rodent (as they professed to be ethical) they shipped me a load of rats from peregrine frozen food as they didn't have enough of their own stock, and I have no idea on the level of care taken by that company.

They do however buy rats from the UK where that standards of care are generlly better than Europe so the standard of care will be better.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

How do we know UK bred rodents are better kept than mainland European bred ones ? I wonder where peregrines rodents come from ?


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## IceBloodExotics (Sep 17, 2012)

The UK has much stricter animal welfare laws...
Peregrine are who supplys shops so I can imagine they are mass produced...


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Generally speaking the UK does have better animal welfare laws, but I am under the impression that rodents have very little if any legal protection. There are legal minimum cage sizes for chickens for example across Europe, but none for rodents even in the Uk, that I am aware of. 

You can be pretty sure that all the wholesalers that supply rodents to shops will be buying in ones that cost the least, not worrying about welfare. 

Unless the consumer demands better animal welfare this situation is not going to change. 

It would be better if the reptile community could address this issue before animal rights groups expose this issue to wider public. If you think the general public doesn't care about such things, consider the fact that most eggs bought in the UK are free range even though they cost more. 

Wouldn't it be great if reptile wholesalers agreed to only buy from higher welfare rodent breeders ? Wouldn't it be great if they were always bred in the UK ?


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## koyotee3 (Aug 8, 2009)

buy off breeders with surplus stock they put time into their rodents


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Dragon Farm said:


> Generally speaking the UK does have better animal welfare laws, but I am under the impression that rodents have very little if any legal protection. There are legal minimum cage sizes for chickens for example across Europe, but none for rodents even in the Uk, that I am aware of.
> 
> You can be pretty sure that all the wholesalers that supply rodents to shops will be buying in ones that cost the least, not worrying about welfare.
> 
> ...


I doubt there are mass breeders solely for reptile food, I expect they are bought from mass breeding facilities for laboratories etc in which case...thats probably why the antis aren't already on the case :2thumb: unless things have changed from when I read that...

Spot on with the bit in bold!


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

Hmm maybe this is a gap in the market, I know I for one would be happy to pay a little extra for higher welfare standards.

I'm surprised there isn't a company that already do it I guess my search continues lol.

Might look into buying surplus home bred stock


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## SilverSky (Oct 2, 2010)

you could ask frozen reptile for pics of their rat housing?


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

Have emailed frozen reptile, will be interesting to see what they say


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

The only way to be sure about the quality of the animal is to produce it yourself.
If you don't have the space look for a local breeder who may be able to supply you.
If you have a small colection that should not be a big problem. They may even set up extra cages if they know you will take the spare rodents they produce. win / win.

I breed my own rodents and give them a good mixed diet.
I heat my rodents in witer and cool them in summer so that they are productive most of the year. At some times of the year I produce a lot more mice than I need ( like breeding season when most go off their food, or during winter when the adults are in hibernation ) so the extra's are frozen for use once consumption goes up.


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

Spoke to the guys at frozen reptile ad they answered all my questions, understandably they did not send any pictures however they seemed genuine and I am going to place an order.

From what they said I would say that the way they (or their suppliers) do it may not be perfect but it defiantly isn’t bad.


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## ExoticInsectsUK (Nov 15, 2008)

Dragon Farm said:


> Generally speaking the UK does have better animal welfare laws, but I am under the impression that rodents have very little if any legal protection. There are legal minimum cage sizes for chickens for example across Europe, but none for rodents even in the Uk, that I am aware of.
> 
> It would be better if the reptile community could address this issue before animal rights groups expose this issue to wider public. If you think the general public doesn't care about such things, consider the fact that most eggs bought in the UK are free range even though they cost more.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

couple of things - lab rodents are not allowed to be used a food anymore as they are now classed as clinical waste under new rulings, rodents offered for sale as food are bred for that purpose. 

I would be very sceptical of any company offering ethically produced produce without showing any evidence as to what that actually means and evidence as to how much product supplied is actually produced to those standards. 

I am a commercial rodent producer, we supply wholesalers, pet shops and our own website, This isnt a sales pitch, all of our output is pre sold before its been born so no need for any extra customers, 

If you have any specific concerns, questions as to how rodents are produced i will be happy to answer as best as I can,


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I am interested to hear what is perceived as appalling conditions and what is expected from "ethical" conditions,


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

ExoticInsectsUK said:


> Dragon Farm said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking the UK does have better animal welfare laws, but I am under the impression that rodents have very little if any legal protection. There are legal minimum cage sizes for chickens for example across Europe, but none for rodents even in the Uk, that I am aware of.
> ...


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I am interested to hear what is perceived as appalling conditions and what is expected from "ethical" conditions,


I had a written reply from Frozen rodents. They said they had fewer rodents per cage, and used better quality food than other breeders. 

To be honest this is pretty meaningless unless you know how many rodents they house per cage, and what other breeders do. I am not sure how they could possibly know how many rodents other breeders house per cage ? Even if what they say is true, this could mean they only have '49 mice per cage rather than 50'. 

It is quite possible for example that Neils rodents are actually housed in a better way. Without some hard facts and pictures I would be sceptical about the claims they make. 

In my experience in rodent breeding it is not just the density of rodents that is important. It is also very important to use decent sized cages and to provide stimulation for the rodents. For example if you place newspaper under the shavings mice will then rip this up to create bedding. This keeps them occupied for hours. The addition of cardboard tubes to chew on also I believe reduces the stress levels. I also liked to give each cage a small piece of carrot or endive to eat each day for a little variety. I used cages for my mice that were normally used for rats. Some mouse cages are really tiny, and even if the density is low, they are not large enough in my view. 

I will let Frozen rodents know about this thread, and they can contribute if they wish. They appear to be members of this forum already, something I did not know when I wrote to them.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Lacerta. said:


> Spoke to the guys at frozen reptile ad they answered all my questions, understandably they did not send any pictures however they seemed genuine and I am going to place an order.
> 
> From what they said I would say that the way they (or their suppliers) do it may not be perfect but it defiantly isn’t bad.


They are making some pretty bold claims on their website. Surely it would not be unreasonable to expect a bit more detail ? If they are genuine then I cannot see why they couldn't have some pictures on the website so the potential buyer can make up their own mind. 

If they are genuinely keeping their rodents in a better way then I would like to see the reptile community being prepared to support them rather than companies who do not keep rodents in a reasonable way. 

I believe Neil tried selling higher welfare rodents before, but not enough customers were prepared to pay the extra costs of production. A great shame in my view.


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> I am interested to hear what is perceived as appalling conditions and what is expected from "ethical" conditions,


I would expect all reasonable attempts for the rodents to be given the 5 freedoms. 

This list is neither exhausted nor definitive 

Not to be kept in overcrowded conditions 
To have room to move freely in any way
To be kept in appropriate groups
To have some form of enrichment (e.g a wheel, substrate for digging)
To be give a hide and/or suitable substrate to nest
To be kept clean!


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

Dragon Farm said:


> They are making some pretty bold claims on their website. Surely it would not be unreasonable to expect a bit more detail ? If they are genuine then I cannot see why they couldn't have some pictures on the website so the potential buyer can make up their own mind.
> 
> If they are genuinely keeping their rodents in a better way then I would like to see the reptile community being prepared to support them rather than companies who do not keep rodents in a reasonable way.
> 
> I believe Neil tried selling higher welfare rodents before, but not enough customers were prepared to pay the extra costs of production. A great shame in my view.


 
He did go into more details in his email.

I can understand why the company would not want to release pictures. They can provide a warped view of things. Just look at what happen with reptile shows, now at many you are no longer allowed to take photos. Not because anything untoward goes on simply to help prevent problems.

I am cannot vouch for Frozen rodents, I dnt know what they are saying is true. Just saying they were very helpful in the email I sent and the rodents they sell did appear to receive better care.
Defiantly agree with you as a community we should support company trying to do it better, whether its frozen reptile or any other!


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## koyotee3 (Aug 8, 2009)

most high turn over firms do breed some but most come from other sources.also money making comes into it,,so more you spend on their food less profit,,some good breeders out there if you look b cheaper than most....


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Lacerta. said:


> I would expect all reasonable attempts for the rodents to be given the 5 freedoms.
> 
> This list is neither exhausted nor definitive
> 
> ...


3 years ago we had quite a lengthy debate on this subject, have a cup of tea and read through this epitaph.. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/439427-rodent-farms.html

On that thread i showed some of my set up and described in detail how we do things, If there is anything you want me to elaborate on or show some more pictures of things then come back to me on this thread and I will get back to you, The only reason Im linking a 3 year old thread is so you can see that Im not just going to give you the answers you want to hear in an attempt to make myself look good, as it would be all to easy just to come back to you and say yep we do all of that


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

Best option is to breed your own.. If you haven't got space/time.. See if you can share the burden with friends... Would be cheaper all round too... I bred mice/rats for myself and friends.. 

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

I can speak from experience here. People love the idea that their rodents are beautifully houses in green fields, large spacious cages with the best diet of the world. But people won't pay for it. People vote with their wallets and until somebody gets their card out to pay for a higher quality range I just don't see it happening. In fact, one particular breeder (I forget their name, sorry if you're on here!) tried a premium range of rodents, the quality was beyond excellent but people just weren't prepared to pay for it because at the end of the day unless you breed for both the pet market and the food market you end up with quite expensive rodents - its the only feasible way of doing it in the UK I'm afraid - we've driven prices down so much. I guess the long and short of it is that unless your prepared to pay maybe double what you currently do, and enough people are prepared to do the same (historically this hasn't been the case - even when we tried a UK breeding operation it just wasn't feasible - nevermind a super high quality UK breeding operation).

Remember guys, its the buyers who really control the market and where it goes, not the sellers. I always sell on quality but when I give a price 80% of the time I get the response "OK I'll check some other prices and come back to you" - ie making little regard for the rodents themselves, its who's cheapest. Hopefully no corners are ever cut to drive pricing down (that was sarcasm, I can pay 7.5p or so for pinky mice, but they're terrible quality, so we opt to pay much more for really nice quality ones, that just fits in with the company ethos).

Most keepers don't understand how the frozen food market works really, how rodents purchased on the internet are disproportionately cheap but when you've been buying them at that rate for the last 5 years you expect it to be the norm.

I can see rodent prices rising this year, or if not over the next few years in order to bring them in line with their true value. This, in line with a poor harvest this year means the cost of food has gone up and a few breeders and wholesalers have been forced to increase their pricing.

So yeah, theres my take on the matter. A lovely idea, just, from experience in the industry, an incredibly impractical one.


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> 3 years ago we had quite a lengthy debate on this subject, have a cup of tea and read through this epitaph.. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/439427-rodent-farms.html
> 
> On that thread i showed some of my set up and described in detail how we do things, If there is anything you want me to elaborate on or show some more pictures of things then come back to me on this thread and I will get back to you, The only reason Im linking a 3 year old thread is so you can see that Im not just going to give you the answers you want to hear in an attempt to make myself look good, as it would be all to easy just to come back to you and say yep we do all of that


Just as a quick note, from what I've heard Neil breeds extremely high quality rodents so whilst I hate recommending a competitor, if I didn't exist I'm sure my orders would go there!


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Cheers , truth of the matter is we just dont have the capacity to supply anyone else so this definitely isnt a sales pitch. But i will do my best to try and dispel any myths and be open and honest about how things are done for the good of reptile keeping.

historically rodents were lab surplus and were low priced as essentially we were buying somebody elses waste for food - pretty much like chicks are still today. 

However when new EU ruling came in preventing this all rodents have to be bred for the purpose of food, unfortunately pricing hasn't caught up to match. 

Currently it is impossible to produce anything larger than a small rat and break even on cost of doing so, the wholesalers are aware of the Issue but until the public will pay more the issue will stay the same.


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## Paul Chase (Mar 7, 2007)

Another thing, I don't know about other counties, but here in Norfolk/Suffolk any one breeding mice and rats commercially have to have a DEFRA vet inspection every year. The vets I have had come randomly and will check several of my cages for stocking density, cleanliness and health of rodents, plus hygene of freezers, dispatch methods and shipping.
The cost of feed has been crippling this year for £185 per tonne to £380+ per tonne, this is not helping U.K rodent breeders.


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

Its the same with things like free range chicken and eggs for instance, everybody loves the idea until they see the price tag that actually represents the cost of doing it, then they're a tad less keen and go back to their value chicken "because theres not really much difference anyway"....


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## ExoticInsectsUK (Nov 15, 2008)

Dragon Farm said:


> ExoticInsectsUK said:
> 
> 
> > I know what you are getting at re chickens but you are not totally correct. Most of the EU countries ARE using the new chicken cages, but there are a few that are still breaking the laws. Most European countries did not change over when they were supposed too. Even in the UK there were a few illegally using old style battery cages when the new law came in. None of the countries in Europe has permission to wait until 2014, but the EU is too slow in taking action against countries that are still using old style cages. I know about this as I listen to 'Farming Today' everyday (on BBC Radio 4).
> ...


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## kitschyduck (May 30, 2010)

Great thread. Like the OP, I only buy free range meat (often going without meat at all if free range is too expensive or not available). I've never considered that there even WOULD be ethical rodent farms, so I think I'll do some research and buy online in future. I don't even have a single clue what I spend now. I only have three snakes, so I just get whatever is worth £10 in the size I need until they run out.


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

Dragon Farm said:


> How do we know UK bred rodents are better kept than mainland European bred ones ? I wonder where peregrines rodents come from ?


Theres actually an interesting point raised here. Having seen "mass produced" rodents from both the UK and the EU I would say the EU, particularly countries like the Czech Republic and Lithuania where most of our mice and rats come from (including the wholesalers etc - most people source from such countries) I would say the EU rodents, contrary to what you might think, blow the UK ones out of the water in terms of quality. They're generally cleaner, show few signs of poor treatment (there are tell tail signs, mites, tail biting, etc, that throw up questions about husbandary). They're also very neatly packed etc. That said, there are good breeders and bad breeders, you have to choose carefully and vet them to make sure everything is right.

I'll openly admit we source probably 80-90% of what we do abroad (if only everybody was that open about it eh?  ), but I have no problems with quality, hell, in terms of mass production they do a far, far better job than we do.

This is of course referring just to large commercial operations, there are plenty of fantastic, slightly smaller scale operations in the UK that produce good rodents. All that said, I'd say 90%+ of the frozen reptile food in the UK isn't actually bred here (anybody else - Neil/Paul for instance - care to elaborate on/correct me?).


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## no more cats (May 2, 2013)

I'm a guinea pig breeder and I'm looking for an outlet for my male guinea pigs. My guinea pigs are well looked after and are fed on quality dried guinea pig mix, hay which is roughage which they need and to keep their teeth short, and plenty of fresh vegetables every day, in the summer they get fresh grass as well. They are kept in specially made large housing and have a good life before being killed.

They will be stored in my fridge or freezer ready for your collection, or I maybe able to send them by post in polystyrene boxes.

My guinea pigs are not like the white skinny guinea pigs I have seen on feeders websites, mine have got meat on them.

For quality food please contact me I live near Bournemouth in Dorset, and tell me what size guinea pig you require.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

FrozenReptile said:


> Theres actually an interesting point raised here. Having seen "mass produced" rodents from both the UK and the EU I would say the EU, particularly countries like the Czech Republic and Lithuania where most of our mice and rats come from (including the wholesalers etc - most people source from such countries) I would say the EU rodents, contrary to what you might think, blow the UK ones out of the water in terms of quality. They're generally cleaner, show few signs of poor treatment (there are tell tail signs, mites, tail biting, etc, that throw up questions about husbandary). They're also very neatly packed etc. That said, there are good breeders and bad breeders, you have to choose carefully and vet them to make sure everything is right.
> 
> I'll openly admit we source probably 80-90% of what we do abroad (if only everybody was that open about it eh?  ), but I have no problems with quality, hell, in terms of mass production they do a far, far better job than we do.
> 
> This is of course referring just to large commercial operations, there are plenty of fantastic, slightly smaller scale operations in the UK that produce good rodents. All that said, I'd say 90%+ of the frozen reptile food in the UK isn't actually bred here (anybody else - Neil/Paul for instance - care to elaborate on/correct me?).


I recieved my first order from you yesterday - I have to say the quality of the rodents (and chicks!) were phenominal. Clearly well looked after. 

The medium rats especially looked top notch. 

Compared to some other suppliers I was very impressed.


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## Lacerta. (Jul 27, 2011)

LFBP-NEIL said:


> 3 years ago we had quite a lengthy debate on this subject, have a cup of tea and read through this epitaph.. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/439427-rodent-farms.html
> 
> On that thread i showed some of my set up and described in detail how we do things, If there is anything you want me to elaborate on or show some more pictures of things then come back to me on this thread and I will get back to you, The only reason Im linking a 3 year old thread is so you can see that Im not just going to give you the answers you want to hear in an attempt to make myself look good, as it would be all to easy just to come back to you and say yep we do all of that


 
Thanks, I shall take a look


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