# Terrible service - [name removed] - AVOID



## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

1st and foremost I'm in the process of complaining to the council. 

Why?
A guy I know of was sold a 1.5ft viv as a home for life for a beardie with a household light bulb for heat, no UV and told he will just need to feed it lettuce for life.

I went in to check it out...

After seeing a viv with a half dead beardie and shit all over the shop I went and viewed there reptile section. I asked the owner (who had a *** hanging out of his mouth) about a gecko in a viv (Golden Gecko Btw in an empty viv with a water bowl dumped in the middle) I was advised that it wasn't a golden gecko, it was a 'sticky gecko'. I repeated 'sticky gecko?' to be told that it's called this as it sticks to the glass.... Really!?

There's also a paddle tail newt in there being sold as a 'big fire belly' next to a tank of dead fire belly newts... 

There's a few snakes in there with old sheds and faeces all over the viv etc. 

Please for the love of God either avoid or check it out and fire in a complaint to walsall counci! 

Unsure if this is the right section mods feel free to move.



[Admin Edit - Unfortunately this post contravenes our naming and shaming rules. 

See this sticky for details of what you should do in this situation.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/general-herp-chat/45436-when-reptile-shops-go-bad.html


For clarity - here are our rules on naming and shaming Reptile Forums - FAQ: RFUK Rules & Policies ]


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

maybe the actual owner is on holiday and the stand-in.................. :lol2:

but if not where do we start :whistling2: 

smoke/pets, inadequate advice, etc.... wow :gasp:

but it just sounds like most other pet shops to me :bash:


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## minz (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm all for pet shops having some form of regulation now, it shouldn't have to come to this but sadly I've seen too many animals sold with woefully inadequate setups, I myself picked up a chameleon a couple of weeks ago that was sold in an exoterra mini, no basking lamp, no water dripper, no vines or plants to climb on, no calcium and the lad was told that was a complete set up for life!!! It's maddening to see this happening so much.


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## Pandora Peroxide (Aug 11, 2010)

Never knew there was anything other than the bog standard pet shop in Bloxwich. Where is this place? I'll check it out and complain to the council as it's not far from me. To be honest as soon as I read Bloxwich I had a feeling it was going to be bad (used to live in Leamore!).


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pandora Peroxide said:


> Never knew there was anything other than the bog standard pet shop in Bloxwich. Where is this place? I'll check it out and complain to the council as it's not far from me. To be honest as soon as I read Bloxwich I had a feeling it was going to be bad (used to live in Leamore!).


[admin edit - name and address removed]

That's the address mate, you have to see it to believe it lol


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## HybridDecon (Nov 28, 2013)

I know it sounds stupid... but wouldn't it also be worth speaking to an animal rescue association such as the RSPCA, who actually have the ability to do something about it, just for backup? Unfortunately their regulations for seizing animals doesn't cover arachnids and invertibrates (or didn't used to), but it covers snakes and other reptiles... The council will likely take slightly longer and will just get in contact with such an organisation before doing anything  by the time they get round to it, those reptiles could be replaced and more die?

I only suggest this as I know a few Pets At Home stores are currently being investigated by the RSPCA in the south, for inadequate conditions for both normal domestic pets and reptiles.

Just a thought


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

HybridDecon said:


> I know it sounds stupid... but wouldn't it also be worth speaking to an animal rescue association such as the RSPCA, who actually have the ability to do something about it, just for backup? Unfortunately their regulations for seizing animals doesn't cover arachnids and invertibrates (or didn't used to), but it covers snakes and other reptiles... The council will likely take slightly longer and will just get in contact with such an organisation before doing anything  by the time they get round to it, those reptiles could be replaced and more die?
> 
> I only suggest this as I know a few Pets At Home stores are currently being investigated by the RSPCA in the south, for inadequate conditions for both normal domestic pets and reptiles.
> 
> Just a thought


The council have a lot more authority than the RSPCA in regards to shops and there standards, for starters it falls on there heads with regards to a shop neglecting animals as they have to issue and approve the license to trade. Pet shops are inspected by the council on a yearly basis to ensure that the care provided and advice given by the shop is adequate. They can stop the shop trading the day it's inspected if need be whereas the RSPCA... Can't really do much. Might fire them an email anyway and send a shot storm towards the hole of a shop lol


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

Addymk2 said:


> The council have a lot more authority than the RSPCA in regards to shops and there standards, for starters it falls on there heads with regards to a shop neglecting animals as they have to issue and approve the license to trade. *Pet shops are inspected by the council on a yearly* basis to ensure that the care provided and advice given by the shop is adequate. They can stop the shop trading the day it's inspected if need be whereas the RSPCA... Can't really do much. Might fire them an email anyway and send a shot storm towards the shit hole of a shop lol



they arent in many cases - however you are right that it is the local authority licencing dept that would deal with complaints. However they are hugely understaffed and will probably only deal with priority cases, one complaint wont be a priority - encourage as many people as possible to complain it will increase the profile of the case and they are more likely to investigate. they are unlikely to close the place though, but they will probably put conditions on the shop for improvement.


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

There's 3 complaints in already with photographic evidence etc. 

Do apologise mods I skipped that bit when I read the rules! Even if I do disagree with them.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Addymk2 said:


> There's 3 complaints in already with photographic evidence etc.
> 
> Do apologise mods I skipped that bit when I read the rules! Even if I do disagree with them.


You're not alone, but it is a decision made to protect the forum. It is frustrating that it means bad shops 'get away with it' (though obviously, if they are breaking the law regarding animal welfare, then if the proper procedures are done, they shouldn't get away with anything) but it protects the forum from legal repercussions and more importantly protects good shops/businesses/people, from disgruntled customers, antis and trolls with an axe to grind.


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## Bigjim (Feb 26, 2008)

bothrops said:


> You're not alone, but it is a decision made to protect the forum. It is frustrating that it means bad shops 'get away with it' (though obviously, if they are breaking the law regarding animal welfare, then if the proper procedures are done, they shouldn't get away with anything) but it protects the forum from legal repercussions and more importantly protects good shops/businesses/people, from disgruntled customers, antis and trolls with an axe to grind.


 In legal terms the owner of a forum is not responsible for what a member says on their boards.

Is it better to protect the forum or protect the animals in poor care?


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Fair one, I'll hold my horses next time!

EDIT: Although I agree with the above.


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## iPHAILZ (Nov 23, 2012)

Bigjim said:


> In legal terms the owner of a forum is not responsible for what a member says on their boards.
> 
> Is it better to protect the forum or protect the animals in poor care?


If you feel this way you could always rent your own server, create a forum and set any rules you like.

There's just far too much bitching in the reptile world as it is so people who are given a green light to do more, valid or invalid would not be good.

IMO the Administrator pays the bills and can do what he wishes..if it's something that i personally don't like i would just stop visiting.


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Bigjim said:


> In legal terms the owner of a forum is not responsible for what a member says on their boards.
> 
> Is it better to protect the forum or protect the animals in poor care?


You're confusing the rule. The rule is not there to protect bad shops or to allow animal cruelty to occur. As explained in many threads in the past and again here, it's there to protect good shops and the forum itself. We do not condone poor welfare and in fact work very hard to provide people that believe they have seen poor welfare with all the information they need and everything they can do to get actual, real action to happen. If they just want a whinge and a moan and don't actually want to action actual official real complaints - then we are not offering a platform for that.

There are proper procedures to follow in the real world if a shop is failing in its duty of care. We have a very informative thread, which I have linked to, to explain what should be done if people believe a shop is failing in its duty of care for the animals it houses and sells. These are real actions that will initiate proper, real, responses in the real world.

If the shop is actually breaking the law and welfare is being compromised, then the organisations that are in place to do so, will action the appropriate action.


Sometimes, as in this case I'm sure, there is a real issue, but the reality is that posting these issues on here will not actually achieve anything (and in fact may be counter productive if cases do actually end up in court) whereas the actions outlined in our sticky thread will.





On the other hand, if we did allow naming and shaming, then any disgruntled customer, personal dispute, misunderstanding, random anti or troll could seriously damage the reputation of perfectly reasonable, dedicated reptile businesses that are having a hard enough time of it as it is without having to constantly defend themselves against every Tom, Dick or Harry that thought they had 3 less crickets than last time or wasn't allowed to buy that bosc because they had a two foot viv to fill.

I have seen time and time again, people start a thread in the classified chat explaining how appalling another member has been regarding sale. The pitchforks come out and three/four pages of lych mob type comments spring forth. Then the other member sees the thread, adds their version of events and suddenly the three pages calling for the member to be banned, beaten or even killed (seriously - it has happened) suddenly start on the OP for not quite being entirely honest as it turns out that the initial report was less than the full story.

If we allowed naming and shaming, this kind of thing would happen regularly with businesses rather than individuals, however, unfortunately, the damage of the title and the first few pages would devastate the business and the damage would be done regardless of if the shop was entirely innocent and managed to provide evidence to that within the thread (though why should they have to even provide evidence to prove themselves innocent - that is not how the law works, so why should that have to happen on a forum.)



I appreciate you may not agree with the rule and you may not agree with the justification above, but it has been debated endlessly on the forum and within the mod section and the rule remains and will continue to do so whilst I have that little blue badge next to my avatar.

regards

Andy


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## Bigjim (Feb 26, 2008)

bothrops said:


> and will continue to do so whilst I have that little blue badge next to my avatar.
> 
> regards
> 
> Andy


 :2thumb:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Bigjim said:


> :2thumb:


?????


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Quick update, copy of the email I received from the council, however he has informed me that the inspectors have no specialist knowledge with regards to the keeping of animals so they may deem it as being fine :bash::
Hello,

*

Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding a pet shop in Walsall.

*

Licences are issued on a calendar year basis and application forms have been sent out to all such businesses to re-apply for 2014. I anticipate that this company will send its form in in the next week or so and the business will be inspected and the matters identified by you addressed.

*

Thank you for your concerns which must be remedied before any further licence will be issued.

*

Environmental Health Officer


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Well that was a fail:
Hello,

*

I have now visited the premises in question and have had the opportunity to discuss each of the points raised by you in some detail with the two business partners.

*

The majority of the allegations made by you were, not unnaturally, refuted. At the time of my visit there were no dead animals evident.

The proprietors stated that they always advise a customer that the set-up they are buying for bearded dragons,* whilst being suitable for the animals at their present age, will need to be upgraded as the animals grow and mature, and that they never sell any set-up as a lifetime one. Similarly, they refuted the issue of suggesting that they only require lettuce as a diet, identifying the variety of diet which is needed on advice sheets, and showing me that the supplements and alternative foods required are sold by them from the premises.

*

No snakes were paired with any other snakes, and they indicated to me that snakes were only ever kept singly. They also identified to me a daily cleaning regime.

*

The partners told me of their knowledge of various types of gecko, saying that the title sticky gecko is often used because they are frequently found in their natural environment attached* to material by their feet pads which are capable of adhering to a variety of different surfaces. I’m afraid that my knowledge does not go to this level, though I see that the name is a frequently used one in reptile keepers’ circles.

*

I appreciate that the complaints may appear to have been “deflected” by the owners, but I could of course only see what conditions were at the time of my unannounced visit; generally speaking, the animals seemed well cared for and clean; the shop is no longer going to sell the more common companion animals so as to enable them to concentrate on improving the store for their main interests of reptiles and birds, (though no birds were in stock at the time of my visit).

*

I impressed upon the proprietors that as stockists of live animals, and in particular as keepers of specialist animals which require specialist handling and care, they are always going to be under scrutiny from discerning and knowledgeable fellow enthusiasts such as yourself, and that they must be scrupulous in their care and attention if they are not to attract criticism and complaints. As a new business, they may not have been so conscious of this as they might have been, and I trust that they will now pay particular attention to all of the issues we discussed.

*

I will licence them, but made it clear that any subsequent complaints would be investigated with a view to further consideration being given as to whether or not they were suitable to hold any further licences, and will be monitoring the situation* in the future.

*

Thank you for your* interest and concerns in this matter.

... There are sheds Everywhere, I never mentioned pairing, since when is sticky gecko a commonly used word in the hobby!? For fudge sake... He Inspected, had no idea about reps etc... And they are selling the tiny vivs as vivs for life and they do state that lettuce is a fine staple diet... Waste of time.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

i think this sourds like a very positive outcome


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

sharpstrain said:


> i think this sourds like a very positive outcome


Likewise.

Look, a council is not going to just take the word of one person, accept it as absolutely true, and refuse to reissue a licence. If, when they visit, the conditions are not as described in the initial complaint then there is not much they can do. They can only go with what they see at the time, unless the original complaint is supported by photographic/video evidence.

However, they have made clear that although the licence has been reissued they will investigate any future complaints.


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## pants125 (Jan 30, 2009)

bothrops;11706940
I have seen time and time again said:


> I love those threads lol


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## Addymk2 (Dec 25, 2009)

The version of events is as follows, one of the most knowledgeable reptile keepers I no and the owner of one of the best rep shops in the Midlands is currently compiling a monster report with photographic evidence against the place. He has also been the man fixing their beardie set ups.


As the inspector states, he knows naff all about reptiles, hence believing it is acceptable to keep reptiles in pretty much empty vivs the size of a small exo terra. Nigh on empty as a water bowl is included in each, no hides to speak of. Pm me and I'll gladly send you the address.


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## Toggsy (Jul 7, 2012)

I had a similar experience of a shop down this neck of the woods whilst I won't name and the shame the shop in question I will say the said shop in questioned has now closed and ceased trading.
The shop was in an appalling state unclean vivs, no clean water and the stench in the shop was a little to be desired due to the lack of cleanliness.
I was really disappointed as the shop was reputed to be one of the best in the area but when I visited it looked like the shop and gone to rack and ruin and the owner had lost intrest.
On speaking to the owner about a snake I had probed by another shop he was more interested in slating that reptile shop off when on reflection he should of addressed his own problems of hygiene and to be honest he didn't have a good word to say about any of the local reptile shops
I did actually report the matter to RSPCA explaining what I had found and that this was not an isolated incident and I felt this was a more proactive thing to do rather than confront the owner as that could of turned nasty.
My opinion is shops should be setting an example on how things should be done as they are the professional after all.

I'm very lucky and fortunate that my local reptile shop is top notch and a good example of how things should be done and it's a real credit to the owner.
The shop is always spotless, vivs and displays well presented and the shop is well stocked and nothing is ever to much trouble.
I don't shop anywhere else now :2thumb:


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