# Do you leave your fighting bred dog alone with your babies?



## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

hellooooo, 

im just wondering..... 
i love to keep big dogs! ive had dobermans and rotties, staffs etc. 

im just wondering how people feel about their dogs being left alone with young children?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

_No _dog should be left alone with children. Regardless of breed, gender, age, upbringing...


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

thanks for the input loveforlizards.... i can see this being an interesting thread if people comment! lol.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

No doubt I'll be flamed for this, but although I wouldn't leave the dog I have now with a child, I left the ones I had previously without any problems or concerns at all.

I think it depends on the dog and how well you know it.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

whats the difference between this dog and your previous dogs? 
my mother had three dobermans when i was a baby and i grew up with them..two bitches and a dog. none of them were ever a concern to my mother, however they were very protective over me. 

i have no children of my own and at the moment no dog either. im not really sure how i feel about it. im pretty sure i wouldnt leave a new born baby in a room with a dog unattended, but how many people leave new borns unattended anyway? 

at the family home when the little neices and nephews visit, they are free to wonder around the house into the same rooms as the dog uses without adults. this is see no harm in, the border terrior will run away and hide if they get too heavy handed with him or he gets fed up of playing pony.... 

but what about dogs with a less patient temprement. for example i had a very old rottie called rosy. she had to be put down in the end due to joint problems and she was a bit funny in the head.... not a child friendly dog. 

but there are many examples where a family dog, accustomed to children, suddenly switches? hmmm..... what risk are we taking?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

My other dogs I'd had from puppies - labrador, Afghan Hounds and a German Shepherd and I knew them well enough to be confident with them around my children, even when they were babies.

The German Shepherd I have now I took on at 11 months and he's very unpredictable. He has a lot of anxieties, is very high energy/hyperactive and has a very high prey drive and that's why I wouldn't trust him around children. I'm confident with him around my grandchildren, apart from the fact that he's 'spacially unaware' and tends to knock them over in his enthusiasm, but I'm extremely cautious around children he doesn't know and I wouldn't leave him alone with my grandchildren.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

very sensible. do you think there will ever be a time when you would leave this dog alone with children?


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

I have an American Pit Bull and I would leave her alone with my daughter. There are circumstances around my daughter and this dog and I trust my dog with her implicitly










Photo is old-ish, my girl is 7 now


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

mstypical said:


> i have an american pit bull and i would leave her alone with my daughter. There are circumstances around my daughter and this dog and i trust my dog with her implicitly
> 
> image
> 
> photo is old-ish, my girl is 7 now


 
awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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## catch and release (Jun 1, 2011)

mstypical said:


> I have an American Pit Bull and I would leave her alone with my daughter. There are circumstances around my daughter and this dog and I trust my dog with her implicitly
> 
> image
> 
> Photo is old-ish, my girl is 7 now


With all due respect, its fine untill the unspeakable possibly happens. And the reality is you never know.


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## barbara herald (Jun 19, 2011)

we own an american bull dog and she is soppy daft with our children not trus isusses at all


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

catch and release said:


> With all due respect, its fine untill the unspeakable possibly happens. And the reality is you never know.


No, but you could say that about driving on motorways, which I do. My daughter has little interaction with people and prefers animals and bugs, I would never leave them truly alone as i'm always in the house.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

wasnt it not long ago where a family dog, like a lab or something was left in a garden with a few children and attacked one. he had never been agressive before. 

the reason i started this thread was because of the burm and child thread. i think having any animal alone with a child is a risk. its a risk for us to be alone with any animal. just depends on how much of a risk? 

where do we draw the line and say that its unsafe? do we leave iguanas alone with children? cats? 

i know many people that have agressive cats and yet there is little fear of a cat clawing the face off of a child?


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

lovemysnakes said:


> wasnt it not long ago where a family dog, like a lab or something was left in a garden with a few children and attacked one. he had never been agressive before.
> 
> the reason i started this thread was because of the burm and child thread. i think having any animal alone with a child is a risk. its a risk for us to be alone with any animal. just depends on how much of a risk?
> 
> ...


My daughter's terrified of cats :lol2:


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## **louise** (Nov 10, 2010)

I have a staffy, he is nuts, typical staffy. He's only 2 years old and my daughter is 12 so she is ok to be left with him. I wouldn't leave him with younger children as he is too hyper and could hurt them. It wouldn't be intentional or through aggression but he's a big lump of a dog and when he gets excited and jumps up at me he almost knocks me off my feet!


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

my dogs are only jack russell terriers but they are two as are my nieces and they have only just started to have free movement around the house when my nieces are here, before they had to stay i the same room as me well the kids ran around, 
my step daughter how ever is nearly 3 and she wont go anywere in the house with out the dogs by her side, 
9i think they only follow her because she seems to drop a almost constant supply of crumbs, even when she isnt eating!!!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

123dragon said:


> my dogs are only jack russell terriers but they are two as are my nieces and they have only just started to have free movement around the house when my nieces are here, before they had to stay i the same room as me well the kids ran around,
> my step daughter how ever is nearly 3 and she wont go anywere in the house with out the dogs by her side,
> 9i think they only follow her because she seems to drop a almost constant supply of crumbs, even when she isnt eating!!!


haha thats so funny! be careful though coz jacks get really fat really easy! hehe


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## cobe (Nov 24, 2010)

yes deffo i would trust my dog around the children but kids need to know about the dogs. i was brought up around rotties but i was once attacked by a 13stone rottie dog when i was 8. i twisted his ear and he bit me in the eye and left me with a scar. my dad beat me for winding up the dog :/ every dog i have had has been trained very well. it is im my opinion very important to teach the kids about the dogs and how to live with a large breed dog...


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

OkI too am probably going to be flamed as well for this but I would trust my dogs with a baby and Theyhave been left in the room together and nothing happened I know my dogs very well and know they are not the type to bite Iknow this as i can bite their throats and not get a reaction at all but then they were taught tolerance as puppies I have had dogs in the past and I trusted them with children as well. I know dog attacks happen but on the whole dogs that are brought up right will not normally attack if trained properly.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

sammy1969 said:


> OkI too am probably going to be flamed as well for this but I would trust my dogs with a baby and Theyhave been left in the room together and nothing happened I know my dogs very well and know they are not the type to bite Iknow this as i can bite their throats and not get a reaction at all but then they were taught tolerance as puppies I have had dogs in the past and I trusted them with children as well. I know dog attacks happen but on the whole dogs that are brought up right will not normally attack if trained properly.


I kind of agree, I think it also has to do with context. I would not for instance, let my dog out on the street with 15 screaming kids. The excitement would just be too much for her and she is a big heavy girl, she might knock one over or nip, I just don't know. Also my daughter has been taught how to behave around the dog, not to twist ears, pull/stand on tail, and she is banned 100% from picking up dog toys. I trust my dog, but obviously as a parent I want to minimise risk too.


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

mstypical said:


> I kind of agree, I think it also has to do with context. I would not for instance, let my dog out on the street with 15 screaming kids. The excitement would just be too much for her and she is a big heavy girl, she might knock one over or nip, I just don't know. Also my daughter has been taught how to behave around the dog, not to twist ears, pull/stand on tail, and she is banned 100% from picking up dog toys. I trust my dog, but obviously as a parent I want to minimise risk too.


~I agree children have to be taught how to behave properly around dogs as do dogs with children, however i have never had children so the only contact they have had is when people with children come to visit yet I know I can still trust them 99% I never trust anything or anyone 100% as you just never know. Again like yourself i wouldnt let my dogs run free outside with 15 screaming kids but I live on a quiet estate with only a few kids present. I will say my dogs are a poodle and a poodle cross but i know many a poodle that will snap and bite at any child and have been on the receiving end on a few myself from them too, but will say mine are very tolerant of children and have had 20 in a room with them when I used to run a xstitch club in my own home for children aged 5 -85 lol and never once did I have a cause for concern, so I know it can be done.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

sammy1969 said:


> ~I agree children have to be taught how to behave properly around dogs as do dogs with children, however i have never had children so the only contact they have had is when people with children come to visit yet I know I can still trust them 99% I never trust anything or anyone 100% as you just never know. Again like yourself i wouldnt let my dogs run free outside with 15 screaming kids but I live on a quiet estate with only a few kids present. I will say my dogs are a poodle and a poodle cross but i know many a poodle that will snap and bite at any child and have been on the receiving end on a few myself from them too, but will say mine are very tolerant of children and have had 20 in a room with them when I used to run a xstitch club in my own home for children aged 5 -85 lol and never once did I have a cause for concern, so I know it can be done.


Yep, there are usually extenuating circumstances around a dog biting a child, once you get past the media's scaremongering.


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

mstypical said:


> Yep, there are usually extenuating circumstances around a dog biting a child, once you get past the media's scaremongering.


Yep they are very good at that the media but it has to be said on the very rare occasion it is just something in the dog and they react before they think just like a few human beings i can think of we are all capable of extreme behaviour if pushed and of very out of character behaviour if the circumstances are right, yet we never think of this when it comes to animals only when it cmes to humans. Since when has any animal ever gotten a fair trial in these circumstances yet as a human we are always innocent until proven guilty?


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

sammy1969 said:


> Yep they are very good at that the media but it has to be said on the very rare occasion it is just something in the dog and they react before they think just like a few human beings i can think of we are all capable of extreme behaviour if pushed and of very out of character behaviour if the circumstances are right, yet we never think of this when it comes to animals only when it cmes to humans


The trick is not to put your dog in that situation, like letting it out in a street with lots of unfamiliar kids....... riding bikes etc, a lot of dogs don't like bikes!


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Yep thats very true but even when indoors it can happen just because of over excitement etc and yet we still say the dog is dangerous when infact it is just living in the moment and it is destroyed for what could be one off behaviour due to the situation rather than any real viscousness


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

sammy1969 said:


> Yep thats very true but even when indoors it can happen just because of over excitement etc and yet we still say the dog is dangerous when infact it is just living in the moment and it is destroyed for what could be one off behaviour due to the situation rather than any real viscousness


My dog bit me, I was thinking I was clever waving a big stick around making her jump, I was distracted by a neighbour and she jumped for the stick, instinctively I pulled my arm away and she caught the top of my arm. She instantly recoiled, as if she knew she had done wrong, I burst into tears, partly shock, partly pain, she has a strong mouth, and we both learnt from it. Hence my daughter or visitors DO NOT pick up her toys, we know some of her 'excitment triggers' and avoid them in situations where they aren't appropriate. Someone who didn't know her might have have her pts for that, it was 2 years ago and she's never shown 'aggression' since, it was an accident.


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

mstypical said:


> My dog bit me, I was thinking I was clever waving a big stick around making her jump, I was distracted by a neighbour and she jumped for the stick, instinctively I pulled my arm away and she caught the top of my arm. She instantly recoiled, as if she knew she had done wrong, I burst into tears, partly shock, partly pain, she has a strong mouth, and we both learnt from it. Hence my daughter or visitors DO NOT pick up her toys, we know some of her 'excitment triggers' and avoid them in situations where they aren't appropriate. Someone who didn't know her might have have her pts for that, it was 2 years ago and she's never shown 'aggression' since, it was an accident.


See that is exactly my point Your dog isnt and never will truly be viscious it was just down to excitement and you being distracted. Things like this happen every day and if you know your dog well enough you know the difference between the two situations but so many owners panic first think KILL IT its viscoius instead of finding out what happened. AS I child I did the worst thing in the world to a dog I was around 6 and was dared into doing it admittedly but then as kids we do stuff we wouldnt as adults. MY crime I put a cat up in the face of a cat hating dog just to see what would happen my punishment a very nasty bite all up my arm which i thoroughly deserved. Was the dog punished No it was my crime not the dogs and that dog never bit anyone else in its 19 year life, but in this day and age it would of been destroyed in a second for my crime


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

sammy1969 said:


> See that is exactly my point Your dog isnt and never will truly be viscious it was just down to excitement and you being distracted. Things like this happen every day and if you know your dog well enough you know the difference between the two situations but so many owners panic first think KILL IT its viscoius instead of finding out what happened. AS I child I did the worst thing in the world to a dog I was around 6 and was dared into doing it admittedly but then as kids we do stuff we wouldnt as adults. MY crime I put a cat up in the face of a cat hating dog just to see what would happen my punishment a very nasty bite all up my arm which i thoroughly deserved. Was the dog punished No it was my crime not the dogs and that dog never bit anyone else in its 19 year life, but in this day and age it would of been destroyed in a second for my crime


Yep, we are as a nation a bit quick to put down dogs, granted there may be some that will never be socialised for whatever reason, but if you have a true family dog, that is trained, the children who are around it are dog trained, you are minimising the risk as best you can.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

the only time i ever got bit was when i went out one night but forgot my key so i decicded instead of waking my dad i would climb the fence and go through the dog flap, (we had a border collie X German Sheppard)
anyway as i started climbing the dog heard me and come out to see what was going on, he was fine with me out in the garden but decided when it came to going back in he wanted to be first so i let him go i then stuck my legs through the flap and he bit me :bash:

i think he forgot it was me in the 10 seconds we weren't talking to each other


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Yep exactly and when you think of the thousands of households who keep dogs in this country who dont have any problems ever it just shows that it is sensationalised when a dog esp a bulltype or a breed bred for its guarding skills ie rotties or dobs it is a wonder we dont hear of more attacks every day but most are brought up right and dont ever do any harm to anyone.
As th saying goes it should be DEED NOT BREED that are condemned and chavs and idiots should not be allowed to own such breeds as it is mostly those that cause the problems


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

sammy1969 said:


> Yep exactly and when you think of the thousands of households who keep dogs in this country who dont have any problems ever it just shows that it is sensationalised when a dog esp a bulltype or a breed bred for its guarding skills ie rotties or dobs it is a wonder we dont hear of more attacks every day but most are brought up right and dont ever do any harm to anyone.
> As th saying goes it should be DEED NOT BREED that are condemned and chavs and idiots should not be allowed to own such breeds as it is mostly those that cause the problems


I bet jack russells and little yappy westies bite people all the time, but because it doesn't particularly hurt, no-one cares. I agree with deed not breed, I have to insure my dog but no-one else does? Not very fair, she's no more of a liability than anyones family pet.


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

mstypical said:


> I bet jack russells and little yappy westies bite people all the time, but because it doesn't particularly hurt, no-one cares. I agree with deed not breed, I have to insure my dog but no-one else does? Not very fair, she's no more of a liability than anyones family pet.


I think jack russels tend to get a bit of a bad press i used to breed them and neverhad a problem of a viscious one although everyone says they are dangerous and bitey, Westies I cant say the only one i ever knew was a softies but you are right alot of small dogs like yorkies and jrt's get away with it due to their size whereas nanny dogs ie american pitbulls and most pit bulltypes get a really bad press. Personally i know of at least half a dozen american pit bulls or american pit bull crosses and american bull terriers and crosses who are as soft as anything yet they have to be insured muzzled and neutured( which I think unless you really need not to all dogs should be neutured) andyt other really viscious dogs get away with going for a walk without any precautions omething is just not right


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

Nope.

Not because I don't trust my dogs - i trust them to behave like dogs.

But because I don't trust children (not that I have any of my own), and because dogs and children do NOT speak the same language and cannot be expected to.

Where an adult understands that a growl means 'keep away', a child does NOT, even the least dog savvy adult tends to grasp that teeth showing (lip curl) also means 'keep away'. Children dont.

In fact studies have shown that toddlers see a lip curl or snarl as a human smile, and do NOT associate a growl or snarl sound with the lip curl/teethy face a dog makes, as being connected.

This may well explain why some children will keep approaching a dog who is baring its teeth and/or growling, and wind up bitten in the face (not because dogs want to savage little childrens faces but because childrens faces tend to be on the same level as a dogs face, and children like to push their faces into things!).

So no, I don't leave my dogs with children, and with my dog behaviourist hat on, I advise dog owners not to do this, no matter what breed nor how well trained. The chances of something going wrong may be low, but the PRICE both dog and child will pay are not worth it. 

It is worth remembering, it is not YOU who pays this price, you might find it upsetting to have your child bitten, or your dog put down, but it is NOT your risk to take when the child ends up scarred for life mentally and physically, and the dog winds up dead. If you want to risk your own safety and your own life - fine, go ahead but I think it is highly irresponsible, no matter how much you trust your dog or your child, to play around with the lives of others!


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Emmabeth said:


> Nope.
> 
> Not because I don't trust my dogs - i trust them to behave like dogs.
> 
> ...


So at what age would you say it is safe to have a child and a dog left alone together out of interest? ~I mean is it at age 10 they suddenly know what they are doing or is it 15 or maybe 18 I am not saying it to be arguementative but I am interested in your opinion in this matter as an animal beahviourist, I mean i know of 30 year olds i would not trust alone with my dogs but I also know of a 3 year old that has more sense round a dog than the 30 year old does so when does it become that they are savvy enough to enjoy the company of a dog alone. How many parents buy dogs for their 8 or 9 year old as a birthday present or gift as the child has asked for one for x amount of years and they feel they are now old enough to look after the said animal. Personally I got my first dog when i was 16 but had been brought up with dogs since aged 2 and knew how to respect an animal my sister however had her first purchased as a birthday gift at aged 5 and she was 3 years younger than me. Both of us knew what we were doing and both dogs lived to be old ages neither ever bit and it wasnt as if i was slower or more dim than she was infact i was much more inteligent it was jsut she asked for one at that age and i didnt. I have lead down with a great big rottwieller that was a family pet at age 6 and used it regularly as a pillow was left alone with it on regular occasions knowing that i wasnt ever going to do anything to hurt it or that it wouldnt hurt me she was a great pillow andsomtheing soft and reassuring to fall asleep on. so when are we old enough to be trusted with dog?


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

Not quite the same i know but my cat has bitten and scratched my little brother none of it was the cats fault. 
My brother(3) was told not to pick up the cat cos he doesn't like his tummy squeezed yet he tried to pick him up by pulling up his middle and got bit and scratched. My brother was told thats why you cant pull his tummy. The second time the cat went and hid in one of his beds my brother followed him, after being told to leave him alone if he wants to hide, put his hand into the igloo bed and got bit and scratched. Now he has learned how to treat the cat they get on well. 
If it had been a dog the dog could have been put down because of the aggression despite the child being to blame along with the adult that let the child behave that way.

As a general rule dogs/animals and children can mix if common sense is applied.


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

they are animals at the end of the day and unpredictable no matter how much training they have. :whistling2:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

We have three dogs..
very different breeds.
a beagle, a jack and an old tyme bull dog.
i would never ever leave them alone in the room with my children as they are dogs...and as such follow animal instincts.
if i fiond out my children have let the dogs in the front room whilst we are upstairs i go nuts... as they ar children and as such behave like children and cannot be trusted! LOL

out of all the dogs i would trust the beagle the least...she is grumpy and unpredictable and would be the quickest to snap.
the OLd tyme is a big baby and loves the kids but as stated with tohers on here is also clumsy and silly, (he is only 7 months old) he tends to knock people over and slobber alot!
the jack is gettin golder and as such has less tolerance but is kind of middle ground....


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

I'll leave Ozzy and my youngest brother(11) alone in the same room together without hesitation. She has certain anxieties but he's been taught since day one when she wants leaving alone and when she's ready to play. The worst that has ever happened is she knocked him over when she got too excited, he now knows how to calm her down and she's never knocked him over since. I'd only leave them in the house together if my other brother(13) was in the house.

Maybe different to other peoples opinions but I happily leave them, yet I get slated for not letting the boys hold the lead? I'm sorry but a child holding the lead is a massive no in my eyes.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

My dog would be fine with kids. I just wouldn't choose to leave her around them if the opportunity arose as i know how mean and provocative kids can be when they want to be.

Younger relatives my mum used to baby sit (around 11 years and the other 3 years old) Would be here and one day i came in on the older one actually booting our older dog out the way, - i was fuming! The thing is, you can tell they do this regularly (was told they do this with my aunts dog also) and the younger one had started imitating it constantly also to the point where i would try to keep the dogs upstairs whenever my mum was baby sitting! 

Really irritative and no need for it - they might not come from a pet household themselves but in my opinion 11 years old is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong!

Can i just point out the kids didn't generally get left alone with the dogs - this was when my mum or me would be busy i.e. in the kitchen etc and had left them watching telly in the living room type thing. Our older dog is blind and slouches around not generally doing much


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

cloggers said:


> I'll leave Ozzy and my youngest brother(11) alone in the same room together without hesitation. She has certain anxieties but he's been taught since day one when she wants leaving alone and when she's ready to play. The worst that has ever happened is she knocked him over when she got too excited, he now knows how to calm her down and she's never knocked him over since. I'd only leave them in the house together if my other brother(13) was in the house.
> 
> *Maybe different to other peoples opinions but I happily leave them, yet I get slated for not letting the boys hold the lead? I'm sorry but a child holding the lead is a massive no in my eyes*.


I agree, as does the law. My dog (a registered exempted dog) must only be controlled a person over the age of 18. Thats one aspect of the law I do agree with.


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## barbara herald (Jun 19, 2011)

just thought id post a pic with my kids with mine i trust the dog but would still not lkeave the kids alone with her she is so soppy she just wnts to ly with you all the time


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Ive never left my dogs and kids alone together. When my kids were babies I had a rottie and a JRT x, if I went out the room either the dogs or the kids came with me.


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## *H* (Jun 17, 2007)

Well Millie my eldest Staffy cross I would hand on heart say I trust her 99.9% with any child, she absolutely adores kids, has done all her life and loves the loud manic games that kids come up with (she really is in her 'happy place' when young kids come around - she thinks they come to play with her)
Cass my youngest Staffy cross on the other hand, I would only trust with mine (12 +14). Not because he is aggressive, nothing of the sort, he is very gentle and seems ok with other kids.. However he does not like noise/kids running about/shouting and I've seen him panic a little when this happens, so I always let him have an escape route if things get too loud for him when younger kids come round and keep a very close eye on him. I'd never leave him unsupervised around any, mine yeah as they are calmer and understand his issues, but not any others just incase.


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## londonjoe (Apr 11, 2011)

my staffy would be fine with any child, shes very gentle and would never hurt one.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

I would never leave any of my children with a dog unattended. Even my mums dalmation that thinks the kids are her puppies.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

londonjoe said:


> my staffy would be fine with any child, shes very gentle and would never hurt one.


you cant say that, im sorry but you cant say an animal will never do anything, 
for example i never thought my dog would bite anyone but he bit the vet last night.
they are unpredictable and in reality i dont think anyone should trust a dog 100% with kids, 

what if some kid started kicking her or punching her, can you be sure she wouldn't react then


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

well i am 14 so do we mean kids as in 5 or 6. Because my dads akita can be left with my all day and i am 99.9% sure he would never hurt me or my sister that is 10. But my dad wont leave my sister alone with him tho. : victory:


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

barbara herald said:


> image
> 
> just thought id post a pic with my kids with mine i trust the dog but would still not lkeave the kids alone with her she is so soppy she just wnts to ly with you all the time


 
Thats a lovely photo. And thats a big staff.: victory:


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

lizard_kid said:


> well i am 14 so do we mean kids as in 5 or 6. Because my dads akita can be left with my all day and i am 99.9% sure he would never hurt me or my sister that is 10. But my dad wont leave my sister alone with him tho. : victory:


Yeah this, what are we meaning by kids?

I'm 16, and fully capable of being left with a dog, infact I've more or less trained my GSD myself. She's just in my mums name. Like I stated earlier, I would leave her with the boys (11 and 13). Would I leave her with my cousins (9 and 12) no, because even though they have a dog, they don't know how to behave around a dog and have not been taught to read a dog's behaviour, whilst I've taught the boys the basics. Then again if I was left alone with my cousins, I'd probably savage them so I wouldn't blame Oz. :whistling2:


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## EButler (Aug 21, 2011)

I would never leave any child unattended with any breed of dog and some other animals for that matter and by child I mean under 11-12. 

You just dont know what the child might do to the animal, which could cause a reaction (probably a reasonable reaction) in the animal that could then result in it being labelled a dangerous animal, giving the breed a bad reputation, possibly causing it to have to be destroyed and causing injury to the child. 

I know this might sound like over kill, but in my opinion its just not worth it.


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

cloggers said:


> Yeah this, what are we meaning by kids?
> 
> I'm 16, and fully capable of being left with a dog, infact I've more or less trained my GSD myself. She's just in my mums name. Like I stated earlier, I would leave her with the boys (11 and 13). Would I leave her with my cousins (9 and 12) no, because even though they have a dog, they don't know how to behave around a dog and have not been taught to read a dog's behaviour, whilst I've taught the boys the basics. Then again if I was left alone with my cousins, I'd probably savage them so I wouldn't blame Oz. :whistling2:


Agreed. I can be left with my akita but i and my dad would't leave my sister alone has she runs around like a little kid still but still don't think he would hurt but theres always that risk.: victory:


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

sammy1969 said:


> So at what age would you say it is safe to have a child and a dog left alone together out of interest? ~I mean is it at age 10 they suddenly know what they are doing or is it 15 or maybe 18 I am not saying it to be arguementative but I am interested in your opinion in this matter as an animal beahviourist, I mean i know of 30 year olds i would not trust alone with my dogs but I also know of a 3 year old that has more sense round a dog than the 30 year old does so when does it become that they are savvy enough to enjoy the company of a dog alone....


It really does depend on the child and the dog in question.

I wouldn't leave any 3 year old unsupervised with a dog, because with the best will in the world they can misunderstand one another. Three year olds are as far as a dog is concerned unpredictable, wobbly on their feet (in comparison to adults) and still at an age where they do not understand what things like growling, lip curls, general dog body language mean.

They are also still at an age where their awareness of personal space is v low, like to hug things and grab things, and not fully able to do exactly as they are told (because they are still learning about life and NOT doing as you are told is an important part of this, as is lying and deceiving others, its an important psychological stage!).

So my basic rule of thumb would be, when a child understands not just that they should not or must not do a thing, but WHY, and appreciates fully that the dog is to all intents and purposes a 'person' (i know they are not) in their own right, with their own emotions, feelings etc. I don't think a 3 year old can do this, and actually you'd be surprised how old children are before they grasp the concept of 'empathy' (ie, understanding how someone else might feel) - they don't start developing that til over four and its not fully 'done' until between 7 and 12 years old!

All that said, there are 5 year olds I know who I would trust with my dogs WAY more than certain adults, including members of my own family, and I deal daily with people who have the ability to buy a dog, go to work, own a house and drive a car who shouldn't be given custody of a stuffed toy... 

It also depends on the situation and the level of 'unsupervised' - would I leave a sensible 8 year old in the same room as my dog when I went into the other room to check the dinner - yes I would.

Would I go out and leave a slightly giddy 12 year old for an hour whilst I went to the shops - no way.

Would I leave my dogs for a weekend with my 30 year old sister, or my best friends 20 year old brother - not if hell froze over!

Its all about sensible management and not taking silly risks - how many people would leave two children unsupervised? say a 2 year old and a 5 year old? There are plenty of cases of children hurting and killing their younger siblings!


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

lizard_kid said:


> well i am 14 so do we mean kids as in 5 or 6. Because my dads akita can be left with my all day and i am 99.9% sure he would never hurt me or my sister that is 10. But my dad wont leave my sister alone with him tho. : victory:


I think in this case, it would have to depend on the individual's maturity and understanding as opposed to actual age. I know 5-9 year olds who I would say would be safe to be left alone with a small dog, but at the same time I know 12-15 year olds who shouldn't be left alone with anything more dangerous than a sharpie marker. Regardless of the dog/child in hand, if a dog is to be kept in a household with children then it is the adult's responsibility to teach the child how to behave appropriately in order to minimise the risk. Leaving the dog to sleep, not trying to take toys/food, no pulling tails/ears, no sitting on the dog etc...
IMO. 
Edit: I consider "child" to be somebody simply too young to properly understand basic signs & reactions from the dog.

I won't even comment on the "My dog would/could never hurt anybody" bandwagon... :lol2:


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

Emmabeth said:


> It really does depend on the child and the dog in question.
> 
> I wouldn't leave any 3 year old unsupervised with a dog, because with the best will in the world they can misunderstand one another. Three year olds are as far as a dog is concerned unpredictable, wobbly on their feet (in comparison to adults) and still at an age where they do not understand what things like growling, lip curls, general dog body language mean.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%: victory:



LoveForLizards said:


> I think in this case, it would have to depend on the individual's maturity and understanding as opposed to actual age. I know 5-9 year olds who I would say would be safe to be left alone with a small dog, but at the same time I know 12-15 year olds who shouldn't be left alone with anything more dangerous than a sharpie marker. Regardless of the dog/child in hand, if a dog is to be kept in a household with children then it is the adult's responsibility to teach the child how to behave appropriately in order to minimise the risk. Leaving the dog to sleep, not trying to take toys/food, no pulling tails/ears, no sitting on the dog etc...
> IMO.
> Edit: I consider "child" to be somebody simply too young to properly understand basic signs & reactions from the dog.
> 
> I won't even comment on the "My dog would/could never hurt anybody" bandwagon... :lol2:


 
Well i would leave my sister alone with my king charles carvalier because i know that he is really playfulll i would run around with my sister or fall asleep on her lap. : victory:


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

never ever would i leave a child with a dog no matter how well i knew it..all it takes is for the child to catch the dog unawares or hurt the dog by accident..
and you are yet another bad stastistic in the news doing that breed of dog no favours what so ever.


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## natsuko (Jan 3, 2009)

Not read all the replies but I dont like leaving my dog and children alone not because I think he is going to turn on them but because I don't want to risk it ever happening although it could also happen when I'm present but at least I'd be there to see what happened etc. Just because a dog is fine with kids and shows no signs of anything sinister doesnt mean that something can't just make them turn. My friends dog was fine with her kids and then one day whilst travelling home in the car the dog decided to just go for her teenage son for no reason, the lad was just sat there. They think the dog had some kind of brain tumour or something which went undetected until this event. Sadly because the dog did this once he got put down as they weren't willing to risk it happening ever again.


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## EButler (Aug 21, 2011)

Apart from medical things, like you said a tumor. I think there is never no reason for a dog just turning, people (and children more likely) just tend to miss the very subtle signals the dog gives off, or the dog has been told off for growling so many times, that all warning behaviours have been supressed so it has no way of showing its annoyed and then goes to the next step -nipping/biting.

I can't honestly say I have never lost my temper/got angry, I am only human and I would never expect any of my animals to be completely placid all of the time, esp my dogs, its only natural to not react like that to some things. Which is why I wouldnt leave an animal unattended with a child.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

theres so many comments on this thread! lol. i havnt had a chance to read them all but some really great input. 

IMO a dog should be well trained enough so that a child can poke at it, ride it, pull its ears etc and the dog not respond. 

i believe that the main reason for dogs 'bad' behaviour is bad owners and poor training. no dog should be defensive over food or toys. they should know they are at the bottom of the pack. 

if your dog knows his place then i dont believe he will ever attack a human being. 

dogs must become accustomed to human life, this envolves children, babies, arguments, fireworks etc etc. 

if you dog can not cope with these things and becomes overly nervous or excited then you are doing something wrong by the animal. 

a dog thrives on structure and disicplin. if they are secure in their position of the pack, they willl not do the things we dont want them too - excluding passing wind lol. 

the beauty of keeping dogs is that they can become so very tame. unlike other animals dogs tame each other and dogs having communication with each other is also an important factor to me. 

another reason dog attacks seem to happen is because they are not accustomed to interaction with other dogs. this causes them anxiety and therefore they are likely to act out. 

i believe that people who own 'dangerous' dog breeds, should have to have a licence. 

this is simply because they are animals and will act on instincts, it is for the owner to manipulate those instincts to make a safe dog. 

i would happily go and spend money on getting trained and qualified to handle the more powerful and tempremental breeds. btw to me this includes jack russels! lol, they are fiesty little things when ill trained.


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## dizzylynn (Jul 30, 2010)

No one can really say my dog would never turn on my or any child, dogs can be spooked easy and turn like nothing on earth, there animals after all, my dog is a good girl but if my friends baby is in I do not trust her alone with the baby even if she didnt mean to accidents happen.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i just find it hard to believe that a well trained dog would ever even show teeth to a human. 

i can stick my hand in my dogs mouth and rough him up, push him around and he still will not apply any pressure with his jaw. 

he does not understand the concept of tug of war with toys because all of the toys are mine, i am simply allowing him to play with them and even then he must ask my permission to play with toys. 

the dog asks my permission to enter a room and will not go into a room unless permitted even when no one is at home. 

this has even been the case when we have had the rabbits running around the living room. he knows he is not allowed to show interest in them when inside the house and therefore does not do it. 

he has learned he must play gently with the rabbits and he does. my dog is a border terrior and bred to hunt. 

if i can get my dog to snuggle up with rabbits, all be it he could still attack them, then it is almost impossible that he would cause harm to a child.


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

Personally, no matter how well behaved, sweet, tolerating and how well I know a dog, I will NEVER trust it alone with a child. I would never risk that...no matter how good the dog is, the reality is that it's still an animal left alone with a defenseless child...you never know and you can't be too careful.


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

lovemysnakes said:


> IMO a dog should be well trained enough so that a child can poke at it, ride it, pull its ears etc and the dog not respond.


 what?! are you serious? yes a dog should always be well trained and taught to be gentle around children but to expect a dog to allow a child to treat it like a rag doll? This is the problem, and this is why so many accidents happen...don't you think the child should also be taught NOT to do these things? You can't "train" a dog to be a rag doll and you can't expect it to not attack if it is constantly treated like one...


> i believe that the main reason for dogs 'bad' behaviour is bad owners and poor training. no dog should be defensive over food or toys. they should know they are at the bottom of the pack.


 Not always. You can have the most well-behaved dog and that dog can and will attack under the right (or rather wrong) circumstances. It is still an animal...no matter how much you train it, it's an animal. 


> if your dog knows his place then i dont believe he will ever attack a human being.


??? again, a dog can know its place, know that humans aren't a threat etc etc...IF however a dog is being teased, hurt, generally annoyed etc, no matter what, it MAY still attack. That's why it's just as important to train people as it is to train dogs. It works both ways..don't piss the dog off, know how to treat it and he has no reason to attack you. Raise the dog well and have it well trained and teach it manners...it's not always enough. In a dog attack there are always TWO parties.


> i believe that people who own 'dangerous' dog breeds, should have to have a licence.


There are no dangerous dog breeds, only dangerous owners. (excluding bad lines and mental problems etc)



> this is simply because they are animals and will act on instincts, it is for the owner to manipulate those instincts to make a safe dog.


Do you understand the meaning of the word instinct? When instinct kicks in, you cannot control it, hence attacks. That's what instinct is, it's automatic. Dogs aren't all instinct, which is why they are so tame and easy to train, but they still poses natural instincts, and it only takes a trigger to set it off.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

yes, it is also important to teach a child how to interact with animals. in fact i find many adults do not know how to properly interact with animals. 

and yes i am very serious, children could prode and poke at my dog and he will lick them until hes bored and move away. 

you have to consider the natural environment of a dog, they live in packs and are constantly harrassed by others in the pack. pulling a dog around a bit does not do them any harm at all. 

dogs fear us more than we fear them. however this does not mean i would leave a baby with a dog unattended for more than a few moments. saying that, my dog will not approch me when holding a baby or approch a baby unless he is invited to do so. 

my dog will not approch anyone unless invited to do so, its just the way he has been trained. 

the very young children are always accompanied by an adult when around the dog for any lengh of time. 

i very much agree with you about dangerous owners. though some breeds are naturally more agressive than others. each dog is born with a temprement, that temprement must be altered to fit a family home from birth. 

i have spent many years watching my dog and monitoring his behaviour, this does not mean he could not react to a trigger he has not experienced before but if you expose your dog to many environments they are far less likely to respond with agression or fear. 

a balanced dog has no interest in harming humans. the problem is most dogs are not well balanced and this is the fault of the owner.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

lovemysnakes said:


> very sensible. do you think there will ever be a time when you would leave this dog alone with children?


At the minute - no I can't see that happening certainly within the next 5 or more years - he's 3 in November.



LoveForLizards said:


> I won't even comment on the "My dog would/could never hurt anybody" bandwagon... :lol2:


I got my first dog, labrador, when I was 18 and trained him myself. There were no children in my family so he wasn't used to children at all. One day I was visiting a friend, who also had a labrador and I took my future husband's daughter with me. She was just over a year old. My labrador, who at that time was about 5 was lying on the floor asleep and in a split second she had crawled over to him and grabbed his tail. He woke up, swung around and took hold of her arm, I say took hold - he didn't bite it, he just took it in his mouth, realised instantly it was her and let go, there wasn't a mark on her arm and she didn't even cry. That's why I knew I could trust this dog and I did, implicitly with my son and my daughter when they were babies.

Similarly because the Afghan Hounds grew up with my children from being babies (the first one was only 2 months younger than my son) I would leave them lying on the floor as babies and the dogs knew not to touch them. As soon as the children were old enough to understand they were taught to respect the dogs in the same way that the dogs had been taught to respect the children.

By the time I got the German Shepherd my children were 7 and 10 and again, I totally trusted him with them and them with him.


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

lovemysnakes said:


> IMO a dog should be well trained enough so that a child can poke at it, ride it, pull its ears etc and the dog not respond.


No. No way, no how, a dog is a living animal and NOT a childs plaything - it IS attitudes like this that gets children bitten and dogs killed.



> i believe that the main reason for dogs 'bad' behaviour is bad owners and poor training. no dog should be defensive over food or toys. they should know they are at the bottom of the pack.


Yes and no. They do not understand 'bottom of the pack' because a/ dogs are NOT pack animals in the same way wolves are (and yes theres science to back that up), b/ even 'bottom of the heap' wolves WILL fight for what they want, and defend themselves and c/ dogs are not so stupid as to think humans are the same species. Again, duff thinking like this causes humans to treat dogs wrongly, dogs treated wrongly become fearful, and fearful dogs easily become dangerous dogs.
Yes, dogs do need rules and boundaries to live by, it is our job to teach them what these are and manage our dogs in such a way as they do not pose a threat to people. No dog should be defensive over food - _because no dog should fear food being taken away from him_.



> if your dog knows his place then i dont believe he will ever attack a human being.


If a dog is happy, confident, never forced into situations he cannot handle or made to tolerate things he does not like. If he is trained kindly with rewards to do the things we need him to do, and to enjoy doing them, then no, an attack is extremely unlikely.

However, a dog bullied and made fearful of humans (as is often the case when people speak about a dog 'knowing his place') will often display learned helplessness to those he knows are physically stronger and scarier than him (adults). This all backfires horribly when the dog figures out (as they do, because they are not stupid) that a child is NOT physically stronger or scarier, and the child does somethign that frightens the dog, and the dog retaliates.



> dogs must become accustomed to human life, this envolves children, babies, arguments, fireworks etc etc.


Absolutely, but not by forcing them to confront these things. Instead by counter conditioning, classical conditioning using positive reinforcement (ie, good things are associated with these things), and building a dog up gradually to handle things at his own pace.

Sorry to jump on your post in particular, but I see the damage done by people who still believe in the pack theory, dominance, punishment based training on a daily basis.

Dogs are NOT pack animals - wild, feral dogs do NOT form packs and stay in them regardless, wolves do (though their packs are family groups, and are NOTHING like the 'packs' created by man in captive situations). Feral dogs (which are far close to domestic dogs than wolves) will form groups where necessary.... and split up when its more beneficial to be on their own. This is categorically NOT the behaviour of a pack animal!

Interestingly, you get bully dogs within local groups of dogs - dogs who throw their weight around, pick fights, impose harsh and unclear rules on others (ie, 'yeah you can take that, OH NO YOU CANT... yeah, you can walk there OH NO NOW YOU CANT')..... these dogs live short lives, are loners who have no friends and tend to die as a result of fights or injuries inflicted in fights.

Their behaviour however, very VERY closely mimics the behaviour so many old school dominance/pack theory supporters advise - funny it doesn't work for dogs either!


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

Kat91 said:


> what?! are you serious? yes a dog should always be well trained and taught to be gentle around children but to expect a dog to allow a child to treat it like a rag doll? This is the problem, and this is why so many accidents happen...don't you think the child should also be taught NOT to do these things? You can't "train" a dog to be a rag doll and you can't expect it to not attack if it is constantly treated like one...
> QUOTE]
> 
> I agree with this. But i would't leave a child under about 10 or 11 with a dog for more than 10 mins. But if your about 13-14 which i am i could quite happy sit with my two dogs which are akita and a rottie. : victory:


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

i was left alone with my grandads dogs and the farm dogs for short times as a child. i was bitten once when i was about 4, it was completely my own fault, i thought it would be a good idea to try and take a full food bowl away from a german shepard. at no stage did anyone blame the dog, noone said my parents/granparents where irresponsible for letting it happen (they tried to stop me but wernt quick enough), even the doctor (mum took me down to make sure all was well) said 'well she wont do that again, will she?'. it was regarded in much the same way as the first time i was kicked by a horse, ie learning the hard way that animals arnt toys and should be treated with respect.

to simplify: all those who say there dogs would never hurt a child, say that one day the child pushed it too far with the dog (make no mistake about it even the softest dogs have limits to what they will tolerate) and the dog nipped them, who would you blame? 

in my family there was no question about it, i provoked the dog, getting bitten was my own fault. the dogs training, upbringing etc wasnt brought into it, it was simple cause and effect. as it was the dog was very well trained and 'knew his place' (my grandad wouldnt have it any other way) he put up with a hell of a lot from me, he just wouldnt tolerate me touching his food.

for me, i wouldnt leave an animal alone with a child (ie anyone under the age of 12 dependant on how mature i felt they where). to me, they have to be big enough to at least stand a chance of stopping the animal if something does go wrong, or mature enough to realise when to leave the animal alone.


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## caffers1982 (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm fairly amazed with some of these posts...I can understand people train their animals well and raise their kids to have respect for animals and treat them well...

However at the end of the day, an animal is an animal...they live by a different set of rules

My dog, for instance, was a soppy girl and loved everyone...but I would never trust her with a kid. 

She proved me right one day when I was visiting a friend and her toddler was playing with Hollie...I could see Hollie was starting to get a bit tired and fed up and just as I moved to get up and put her outside she growled a warning to my friends kid. 

I can't say what would have happened if I hadn't been there to move her...maybe the kid would have carried on prodding and poking and not understood Hollies 'back off' growl...but I would certainly never put Hollie or a child in a situation where I would find out

Maybe it would just be a nip (and everyone would say "oh that will teach her for pulling the dogs tail" and have a laugh about it)...but what if its not just a nip?

I'm all for the whole judge the deed not the breed, and that a dogs behaviour is mostly down to the owners, but to leave a young child that is not equipped to defend itself, alone with a dog is just madness

Regardless of how well behaved, loving, protective, friendly a dog is, they have their own rules, and even if it is just pack hierarchy and a dog feels that this child just needs 'putting in its place' for whatever reason...the result of that could be horrific

I'm sure most of your dogs won't go for a child...but the thing is, you just never know...and I can't see how any of you think its worth the risk

Just my 2 pence anyway


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## sammy1969 (Jul 21, 2007)

Emmabeth said:


> It really does depend on the child and the dog in question.
> 
> I wouldn't leave any 3 year old unsupervised with a dog, because with the best will in the world they can misunderstand one another. Three year olds are as far as a dog is concerned unpredictable, wobbly on their feet (in comparison to adults) and still at an age where they do not understand what things like growling, lip curls, general dog body language mean.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response as I said I wasn't doing it to cause an arguement and I do agree with most of your points but I do have to say I do know of one 3 year old who defies everything you have stated but he is the only one. He does understand what a snarl lip curl and growl mean and I have observed this for myself and he does know to back off and leave well alone when he comes across this behaviour in any dog but he is well advanced for his age. I mean basically I was asking so as to give an idea of the age ranges that would apply to this very highly emotional question and with yourself working with dogs with problems you would be able to give the op a better answer than anyone else would imo. 
THe one thing that does make me laugh is the fact cats are capable of doing just as much damage if not more than a dog can yet you never hear of any cat being destroyed for attacking a child or anyone else for that matter.


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

Depends what you mean by 'leave them alone' i guess...i have a 4 year old daughter and a 3 year old bullmastiff. Obviously they have grown up together since my daughter was 1 and the dog 8 wks. 
I certainly dont watch them all the time, they are both free in the house to go and do as they please. They spend a hell of alot of time together on their own, the dog likes to keep an eye on her and always likes to know where she is. 

I must say i trust my dog and i trust my daughter to behave properly around her aswell (which in my eyes is the most important part) 

But this dog is pretty bomb-proof. My friend brought her 11 month old baby around the other day and was happy to let him play on the floor with the dog (SUPERVISED!)


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## barbara herald (Jun 19, 2011)

lizard_kid said:


> Thats a lovely photo. And thats a big staff.: victory:


its not a staff its a johnsons american bulldog:2thumb:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well my labrador lived until he was 11, my Afghan Bitch until she was almost 10 (and broke my son's heart when she died), the Afghan dog lived until he was almost 8 and my German Shepherd lived until he was 13 and none of them ever came even close to behaving badly with my children or their friends.

I knew my dogs!

However, I also know the dog I have now and I don't trust him the way I trusted the other 4.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

lovemysnakes said:


> i just find it hard to believe that a well trained dog would ever even show teeth to a human.
> 
> i can stick my hand in my dogs mouth and rough him up, push him around and he still will not apply any pressure with his jaw.
> 
> ...


yes my dogs respect my rabbit and the rabbit respects the dog but do you leave them in a room on their own ?
plus small children dont understand dogs so could cause an attack


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

sammy1969 said:


> Thank you for your response as I said I wasn't doing it to cause an arguement and I do agree with most of your points but I do have to say I do know of one 3 year old who defies everything you have stated but he is the only one. He does understand what a snarl lip curl and growl mean and I have observed this for myself and he does know to back off and leave well alone when he comes across this behaviour in any dog but he is well advanced for his age.


No problem, I knew you weren't trying to cause trouble :2thumb:

You do get the odd kid who has a natural affinity for animals, then you get the ones who are plain lucky, and unfortunately the majority of kids and adults don't understand animals. So my advice always has to be tailored to the majority, especially via the internet where I cannot see whats going on!

I had a person who I thought was pretty sensible, worked at a vets, do something so unbelievably stupid I was for once, speechless.
She fostered a dog she had known (so knew its history) for over a year, she KNEW the dog was in pain, had bitten people before, did not like physical contact, was very anxious.....

and she let her four year old daughter run up to it when it was asleep on her lap and grab it round the neck and kiss it in the face.

She was ACTUALLY surprised that the dog nipped the kid - personally I was surprised it was only a nip, and that the child wasn't badly hurt, and her justification for allowing this was that her daughter always hugged and kissed her own dogs, so she thought it was appropriate to allow it in a foster dog, who she knew was fearful and in pain!

I do find very regularly, and this thread is no exception, that SOME people expect a level of behaviour from dogs that they wouldn't actually expect from humans (what human hasnt lost their rag, lashed out, got mad or reacted out of character due to pain or fear??), and sometimes I am at a loss as to how to get through to these people that dogs are DOGS, not cuddly toys or furry robots to do with as you wish.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

123dragon said:


> yes my dogs respect my rabbit and the rabbit respects the dog but do you leave them in a room on their own ?


I did! 

And my German Shepherd was great with all the kittens - and a litter of Somali kittens fly around like idiots. He was their stepladder on and off the settee!


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I have happily left my two dogs alone with both my kids. I would never leave my children on the floor though and my dogs are not allowed on the furniture.

My daughter only tends to interact with my dogs when either me or "him indoors" are around her so i have no fear of her behaving in a manner to cause worry.

My dogs spend most of their day flitting between sleeping spots. There was a couple of occasions that my daughter fell on my rottie or accidentally stood on his foot whilst she was learning to walk whilst he was sleeping but he reacted like the perfect gent and did a yelp bark and got up and moved away from her.

Hes enjoyed every min of her tickling his ears and kissing his nose and sitting next to him. She even tried to lay her head on his feet once much to his amusement.

I've never had cause for concern over his behaviour. Hes aging very quickly now though and he is getting stiff and sore in his old age so i will treat him differently when my son attemps to crawl and walk and i will be more wary.

Infact this thread has just reminded me of the two weeks my rottie dog drove me nuts attending to my daughters every little cry and getting so much in the way that it prevented us getting to her first. He was highly sensitive to her and actually rested his head on my bump with both pregnancies something he has never done before or since my pregnancy ended.


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## MarcusF (May 9, 2010)

I can't be doing with kids. So I'm never going to have to worry about it :lol2:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I would never leave my dog alone with a child, and I have to agree that is more to do with no trusting children than that I do not trust my dogs

The shocking thing is I would no more leave my dogs alone with an adult other than my husband either!! They are my dogs, I know them I know their body language and their characters and that makes me responsible for never leaving them in a situation where they have to make a decision that they may get wrong.

Just to be clear, my dogs are working dogs, they work with me as therapy dogs. They spend hours every week in care homes with the elderly or adults with issues (mainly alcohol damaged) They are very well trained and I trust them to meet all these people without a single issue, even people with uncontrolled motions etc but they never ever leave my side if I leave the room they leave with me, every single time.

Recently I stayed a few days at my fathers home, when I left the house and could not take the girls with me they were shut in our bedroom, not left to free range with a man, my own father, who does not know them the way I do, again not because I think they will do something wrong, but because something may occur, a stranger may knock at the door, my dad may fall (he is in his mid 70's) a 100 things may occur that may leave them in a situation I am not there to help guide them through and they may make a bad decision, because after all they are only dogs.

I can name maybe 5 people I would be comfortable to leave my dogs with. Two are professional dog trainers, one is a close friend who herself has a Northern Inuit and my German shepherd responds to her every word just as she responds to me, one is a family member who has a affinity for dogs.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

Kare said:


> The shocking thing is I would no more leave my dogs alone with an adult other than my husband either!! They are my dogs, I know them I know their body language and their characters and that makes me responsible for never leaving them in a situation where they have to make a decision that they may get wrong.
> 
> Just to be clear, my dogs are working dogs, they work with me as therapy dogs. They spend hours every week in care homes with the elderly or adults with issues (mainly alcohol damaged) They are very well trained and I trust them to meet all these people without a single issue, even people with uncontrolled motions etc but they never ever leave my side if I leave the room they leave with me, every single time.
> 
> ...


I have to say I agree. My mother has been away for 5 days since I got my snakes two years ago as she doesn't trust anyone to care for them. Since we got Ozzy, she has refused to ever go away again until Oz is no longer with us, as no one knows her like us. In an emergency she would be left with my mums best friend and her dobe or my father, both of which she is very attached to. She could never be kenneled as she wouldn't cope, I know that for a fact. 

I trust Oz with my life, and in her short time with me she's protected it several times! It's not her that I'd have doubts about, it's the child she'd be left with.


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

barbara herald said:


> its not a staff its a johnsons american bulldog:2thumb:


I thought it looked big. Lovely bog tho.:flrt:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

My labrador either came with me or, if circumstances absolutely prevented it, then he stayed with my parents - where he lived for the first 6 years of his life.

My Afghans also came with me, but again if I couldn't possibly take them, then they went back to their breeder.

My German Shepherd was never left with anyone, apart from one weekend a year for 2 years when we went to Birmingham to the Supreme Cat Show and he stayed at home with my son. Other than that he went everywhere with me. I wouldn't trust anyone else with him.


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

I wouldn't leave a dog with a child under the age of 12, no matter how well I knew either. You just can't guarantee how either would behave outside your watchful eye!
The ESS we had was absolutely soft as muck, wouldn't hurt a soul... he'd let toddlers sit on him (when we weren't looking!), drag him around, pull his ears, mess about with his mouth... not that we condoned this behaviour at all... he loved the attention to be frank :lol2: But we wouldn't risk either Toby's or a child's safety leaving them together unattended. When he was a puppy, only a few months old, he'd had a long, mad day of running about like a loony, and wanted to sleep, as puppies do... one of my brother's friends, he couldn't have been any older than 7 at the time, simply would not leave him to rest. He was in his face, poking him, trying to rouse him to play some more despite our efforts to tell the lad to let him rest... and, quite rightly so in my opinion, gave the lad a quick warning nip. Nothing came of it, the boy knew he'd done wrong... but that showed me there's no telling how a child may behave around a dog when unsupervised!
Similarly, we wouldn't leave the TT or the Shih Tzu X with a child... The TT gets excited around kids and instantly goes to jump up and mouth - unfortunately getting her out of this is only happening slowly, as such we long-line her and warn children how to approach her so as not to over-excite her. The Shih Tzu X has had a bad experience with kids so is aggressive towards them if not approached and treated in a very particular fashion. So definitely not a kid candidate - we wouldn't even trust him with his previous owners' children!


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## jeweled lady (Aug 25, 2009)

As a dog person, trainer etc. etc. I would not leave any child of mine with a family pet, or leave the child at all. It is well excepted in doggy circles that no young child should be left alone with a dog. Children under the age of 12 should not be left on their own anyway. However much you think you can trust your dog your child might just do something without thinking to frighten the dog. Old dogs can be very cantankerous, epecially if they are on their own bed, or feeling stiff. Young dogs do not know the ropes anyway, until they are properly trained.

There are many dogs used as guard dogs, or of the fighting breed and under no circumstances should they be left with even a young teenager. Suppose they got out? It does happen and then someone else might be attacked. I think everyone should be sensible, whether we a have small or large dog.


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## MarcusF (May 9, 2010)

feorag said:


> My Afghans also came with me, but again if I couldn't possibly take them, then they went back to their breeder.


What breeding were they?


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## gotrek101 (Aug 12, 2010)

its simple,

i wouldnt leave my 22 month old with a dog that wasnt brought up with small children as that would be crazy.my mum has two lhasa apso's and he isnt alound near one off them but for some reason my son went missing in the house(we all thought the other was looking out for him)we found him curled up with the dog he wasnt aloud near and the dog was licking him and haveing a hell of a time.

i have a stafflab cross that i got when my partner was one month pregnant,it was shown from 5 weeks untill the baby arrived what kind of things could and would happen to it when the baby arrived and it adapted.when my son was born we left him in the same room with our dog from day one,were not talking hours but if house work needed doing the baby stayed in moose's basket with dog laying by it or on the sofa.for the first 5 months the baby and dog sleeped in our room.the day we put our son in to his room the dog could not take it and nearly every night for a week we found she had opened two doors to get in his room and lay by his cot.we decided to just leave the doors open and let the dog go one room to the other witch it still does.from my son beingf 6 months he realised what zusie (my dog) was and fell right in to her and they cuddled for about an hour.from then on if he was on the floor she was when he started to crawl/walk she was right beside her,now he can talk a bit she understands his words for stay/come/sit and out.he now sleeps in a normal bed and she sleeps with him.he can pull her ears,pull her tail,tread on her toes,stand on her(for a long time)rid her.....anything realy without a single sign of ill feeling towards him. I don't encourage him to do it but he is safe in doing so(like said before if i need to do stuff i will leave them in the same room but not for hours).kids and dogs follow you around so there hardly on there own anyway.why should i keep them appart,the connection is to strong to do that


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

i was like that with my old dog when i was little, 
the rspca paid to get him put down last year and me and my dad were going to follow behide with dog in rspca van, 
the guy wouldnt believe we when i said that the dog wouldnt leave my side and when he tryed to put a lead on him he got to see the bad side of the dog, needless to say the dog stayed with me ill the last minute

sorry i got a bit of track


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I do want to question what you think a fighting bred dog would be? Especially as you then go on to mention rotties dobies etc.

I have to point out that you mentioning you have a Border Terrier.
From purely the point of view of what they were bred to do given no choice but to leave a small child with one family or the other I would rather leave a small child with someones Rottie/GSD etc than with someones terrier.

Rotties/GSDs bred with a strong instinct to protect, from generations back protecting the herd to present day protecting its family unit. verses a terrier, bred to hunt rodents/small animals, as seen when they play with squeaky toys a strong instinct to "kill" small squeaky things, well small and squeaky is a category a baby/toddler fits very firmly within. 

Of course also worth mentioning for those with breed prejudices that if I had a small child and I was forced to choose to leave her with one of my dogs or the other I would choose to leave my baby with my German shepherd rather than with my Golden retriever Every Single Time.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

dunno about fighting dogs ours is a german sheopard cross colly, we love him but he is very strong, getting him to understand he can't jump up all the time is a nightmare!

He is going to dog classes currently and even some of there methods don't seem to be working.

He is a nightmare! but you gotta love him at the same time.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

brilliant input thanks kare. 
by fighting dogs i meant breeds such a pitt balls and staffs. but they are all still dogs at the end of the day, even toy poodles lol.


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## gotrek101 (Aug 12, 2010)

i wouldnt class staffy's as fighting dogs(many would but i dont)they love to please there owners no matter what they do.if there taught to fight they will do it with all there heart,if there left to love naturally then you wont get a better or more loyal dog.

no one will report a Labrador attacking a kid but because people see staffs and stuff like that with bad press already they just jump on the band wagon.

i would take any big dog over a little dog when it comes to trust with kids.

dig dog=able to withstande what a small child can throw at it
small dog= fragile and weak(in most cases)


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

gotrek101 said:


> i wouldnt class staffy's as fighting dogs(many would but i dont)they love to please there owners no matter what they do.if there taught to fight they will do it with all there heart,if there left to love naturally then you wont get a better or more loyal dog.
> 
> no one will report a Labrador attacking a kid but because people see staffs and stuff like that with bad press already they just jump on the band wagon.
> 
> ...


i have rescued some staffs that were bred and trained as fighting dogs. they are monsters and no matter how much hard work and effort anyone puts it, that animal is never going to be 'dog tame' 

staffs are generally very soft natured dogs. dogs are bred not only for their build, looks etc but temprement too. 

i think its because you can train and breed dogs like pit balls, rotties, dobermans, staff and so on and so on to be agressive more so than you can with other breeds. 

i personally prefer big dogs but i would not say the risk of a dog attack is at all dependent on the size of the dog, only the damage that is done if directly related to the size and breed of dog in most cases?


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## gotrek101 (Aug 12, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> i have rescued some staffs that were bred and trained as fighting dogs. they are monsters and no matter how much hard work and effort anyone puts it, that animal is never going to be 'dog tame'
> 
> staffs are generally very soft natured dogs. dogs are bred not only for their build, looks etc but temprement too.
> 
> ...



but then if they have been breed to be fighting dogs then thats all they have none and will never be able to change witch is part of my point.train them to fight and you will get none better but train them to love from a puppy and there as soft as ......well you get my point.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

indeedy!  im currently dog sitting got my neighbour, hes a poodle of some sort called valentino! i know why hes called that now because he wont stop snogging me! 
though i walked him earlier and a ball mastif walked past....tiny little valentino went mad at the big dog like he wanted to destroy him! i obviously pinned valentino down to the ground on his side. his owner probably wouldnt like me doing that but i will have to speak to her about letting me train him. that behaviour just is not on!


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## bennystalebread (Jul 11, 2011)

sammy1969 said:


> THe one thing that does make me laugh is the fact cats are capable of doing just as much damage if not more than a dog can yet you never hear of any cat being destroyed for attacking a child or anyone else for that matter.


Maybe its because cats dont run around beaches and maul and kill toddlers as much as dogs do.

Dont get me wrong I personally know some very well behaved big rotty's, one specifically (Tanya) was the most adorable and loving dog you could ever meet, found myself with a group of humans walking her in the park, i, as you do, went for a wizz behind a tree and she immediately came over and started nudging me back towards the group, it was only later after reading about the breed I realised they were bred to heard cattle into groups, i think the fact of the matter is dogs have been bred so much (way too much in my opinion) that some of them have lost and some of them still have the tendencies in them, no matter how far down the line they are.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

bennystalebread said:


> Maybe its because cats dont run around beaches and maul and kill toddlers as much as dogs do.


Seriously? As much as dogs do? I cannot find even a single report of a toddler being nipped on a beach, let alone mauled or killed...where are all these incidences?


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## bennystalebread (Jul 11, 2011)

Was a story on the north east news a month or so back, some granny was with her grandchildren and one got mauled by a rotty. The kid was in intensive care as far as i recall, i'll try get a link to the news story when im next on.


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## bennystalebread (Jul 11, 2011)

Sayin that, if i took our cat to the beach i couldnt say he wouldnt do the same...


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## bennystalebread (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh god, just searching for the news story (cant find it, too drunk) has made me feel ill, beautiful dogs controlled by total d***heads too often.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I've not read much further than this but it reminded me of a comvo I had with another mother.



lovemysnakes said:


> IMO a dog should be well trained enough so that a child can poke at it, ride it, pull its ears etc and the dog not respond.


Her veiw was that I was iresponsible for getting an older dog when I had a 1 year old child 'you should have got a puppy, older dogs get vicious'. I explained that I chose not to get a puppy because they nip in play and get excited. The dog I chose has been 'tested' with children and knows how to behave already. She said that her kids could pull at the dog, ride on it etc. etc. She gave the impression that she had puppies which were great and then when they grew up you should just get rid of them because they turn vicious. Nothing to do with the kids being told not to do that with the dog at all? My response was that my dog would tolerate it, and he does, but he doesn't have to for long because my child is immediately told 'don't pull the dogs hair/ears/tail' 'don't stand on the dog, you will hurt him' etc. etc.

I trust my dog not to be 'vicious', but I don't trust my kid to be sensible, he is after all only 1. I only leave them for seconds and even if in a different room they stay in sight because of the layout of my house. Unless they are in a bedroom, but the dog isn't allowed there anyway.


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

Marinam2 said:


> Infact this thread has just reminded me of the two weeks my rottie dog drove me nuts attending to my daughters every little cry and getting so much in the way that it prevented us getting to her first. He was highly sensitive to her and actually rested his head on my bump with both pregnancies something he has never done before or since my pregnancy ended.


 Rotties are like this. They are so carning dogs. The other day i fell over down a back and she came runing up to me looking all worried and trying to help me up.: victory:


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

Leaving any Dog with a young child is just irresponsible and incredibly stupid if people think this is ok they need a bullet in there head.


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## gotrek101 (Aug 12, 2010)

Colosseum said:


> Leaving any Dog with a young child is just irresponsible and incredibly stupid if people think this is ok they need a bullet in there head.


total over board and stupid answer


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

Colosseum said:


> Leaving any Dog with a young child is just irresponsible and incredibly stupid if people think this is ok they need a bullet in there head.


Well i think your wrong. Why could't you leave a 8 year old with a kings charles cavalie? If you said leaving a vicious dog with a 6 year old i would understand.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Colosseum said:


> Leaving any Dog with a young child is just irresponsible and incredibly stupid if people think this is ok they need a bullet in there head.


You best shoot me then!! I have total faith in my dog i am aware of his triggers and what he does and doesnt like. I know all his little foilbles and i'm fully aware of how other people see him too.

Hes been nothing but amazing with my daughter infact its now apparent that he trusts her more than he does me. 

Before my children came along i would have agree a dog should never be left alone with a child of any age for any period of time but since i have seen how MY dogs behave around MY kids when I'M THERE i have absolutely no reason to believe he would ever knowingly attack them. He may stand on a foot every now and again and totally cover your face in drool or sneeze on you but dogs have no manners.


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## EButler (Aug 21, 2011)

I do think Colosseum's comment is a tad OTT, but would agree with the sentiment (not the shooting part). All dogs (animals) have teeth and can bite if they choose to, regardless of breed. It may be that your dog, has a very very high bite threshold, but one day, the right negative stimuli could all happen to come in to play at the same time, to make your dog reach that point. I wouldn’t want my child to be a) to contribute to this because I am not watching him/her and they have started to pull the dog around or b) left alone with the dog if this point was ever reached.

Just because your dog doesn’t bite, doesn’t mean it can't. I choose not to shout at people who annoy me by stopping right in front of escalators  but it doesn’t mean I can't. I know its not socially acceptable behaviour but one day I might just have had enough other things happens to me to annoy me that day, to snap and shout at them! It would be a natural display or my displeasure, socially not acceptable but behaviourally, as part of my natural repertoire yes I think acceptable (pulling a gun out, wouldn’t be for example).

When I was younger, the idea of a dog growling or biting made me think that a) the dog was a bad dog and b) that there is something wrong with it. Now I believe that, as with any human its ok to let us know its unhappy and as their owners we have to either change their mind about the situation through learning and positive associations or respect their feelings. I would never tell my dog off for growling. 

You also have to keep in mind that there are different types of bites as well, a nip to warn you off is very different from a grab and shake to try and kill you! I would find my dog growling to say it was unhappy, acceptable, then if I didn’t listen for a prolonged period a nip maybe, but if it ever went to the grabbing hold, then there is a big problem!

Would a child be able to read or understand these signals? Its just not worth the risk.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Shooting hey mmmm Little Harsh..There are many people I wouldnt leave a child with for a variety of reasons..Some due to the insane comments which may be passed on to them in my abscence 
However dogs with children is a personal choice and you should trust your instincts . I dont see a problem with it..Depends on the dog the owner the child, conditions of the circumstances. But most normal houses with normal people and normal dogs..Cant see a problem but if the house is unstable with stress and generally a non calm atmos then its very stressful for the animal and may becoem grouchy and snappy etc etc..

I would leave mine with anyone children..Trouble is I probably wouldnt trust the children they are in the company in!


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## gotrek101 (Aug 12, 2010)

Colosseum got banned :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

MarcusF said:


> What breeding were they?


They were both Kharisars and it was way back in the early 70's. This is my bitch Afghan Hound Pedigree Database - Pedigree Database - pedigree and this is my dog Afghan Hound Pedigree Database - Pedigree Database - pedigree



Kare said:


> I do want to question what you think a fighting bred dog would be? Especially as you then go on to mention rotties dobies etc.
> 
> I have to point out that you mentioning you have a Border Terrier.
> From purely the point of view of what they were bred to do given no choice but to leave a small child with one family or the other I would rather leave a small child with someones Rottie/GSD etc than with someones terrier.
> ...


I totally agree with this. My previous German Shepherd had a very strong shepherd instinct and protected every new animal/person who came into the house. My son found a rabbit hopping down the street and brought it home while we tried to find its owner. The dog instantly went into 'protection mode' and wouldn't let any of our cats near that rabbit - he just stood beside the rabbit and put his head in between them whenever they were trying to get near enough to see what it was.

Whereas the German Shepherd I have now has a very high prey drive and I know for a fact he would want to catch that rabbit!

Again I reiterate, it's not about being irresponsible, it's about knowing your animals. 

My breed of cats have a reputation as great hunters, but I know that any small critter in my house will be left alone by my cats, because they know that what is in the house is not to be touched.


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## lizardloverrach (Dec 1, 2008)

Oh well shoot me then! You'll find alot of the deaths of children are caused by stupid people who dont take enough care, the amount of times ive heard 'there was 2 or 3 dogs in the house, 1 was in season, 1 was a un-neutered male, one was a pup'.....its obvious these can be avoided. 

The latest incident locally i heard of was a child stroking a dog which had puppy with it, if that had been me as an owner i would have refused the child to stroke it. Everyone knows how protective dogs can be around a pup. Needless to say the child was badly bitten in the face. 


Too many kids are aswell either terrified of dogs, or not respectful enough. 
But mainly the owners need to take more care and have more awareness of things that may upset the dog. Its all about management in different situations, no dog can be trusted in every situation.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

lizardloverrach said:


> Oh well shoot me then! You'll find alot of the deaths of children are caused by stupid people who dont take enough care, the amount of times ive heard 'there was 2 or 3 dogs in the house, 1 was in season, 1 was a un-neutered male, one was a pup'.....its obvious these can be avoided.
> 
> *The latest incident locally i heard of was a child stroking a dog which had puppy with it, if that had been me as an owner i would have refused the child to stroke it. Everyone knows how protective dogs can be around a pup. Needless to say the child was badly bitten in the face. *
> 
> ...


The mother also patted the dog on the head and went straight to the puppy, leaving her child behind her with a fully grown, strange dog :whip:


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## *H* (Jun 17, 2007)

I'm the same with leaving my dogs with people, it's the main reason why we got a touring caravan so they can come with us on holiday, as there is no one I could leave Cass with, and I don't agree in kennels.
Millie I have left with my best mate, as Millie is really laid back and not easily stressed and I would feel confident leaving her with my mother in law too, as long as she's got a bed and someone she knows to fuss over her, she's happy.
Cass though won't leave my side at the best of times. The only time he's been away from me was when he got neutered, and he howled from the moment they dragged him out the back, to putting him to sleep, and then again from the moment he woke up, to us collecting him. He also spent days after not looking at me and moving away from my hand, he was fine with everyone else.


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

Ive got a 13 month old cocker spaniel pup, and i rarely leave him and my 6 year old daughter alone.

Hes not vicious at all but hes super giddy and gets over excited and then starts getting nippy.

I leave them in room when hes settled but when my daughters playing on garden i keep him on decking as he starts chasing and running around like a looney. 

Also my daughter doesnt leave him alone and occasionally he gets fed up so its just easier to exercise caution and not leave them alone!

I dont think he would ever hurt her intentionally but you just never know 100%.

He goes in his cage when he wants quiet time and we leave him when hes in there as i think thats his way of saying he wants some alone time.

Hes a brill dog, looking after my sis in laws chi at moment and hes awful lol! My cocker lets the chi take food out of his mouth and shares toys etc... The chi is so possesive that he snaps at my cocker and he just wanders into his cage out of way!

Hes great i love him hes just stupid.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

LoveForLizards said:


> _No _dog should be left alone with children. Regardless of breed, gender, age, upbringing...


This this this.

Having been attacked by a dog when I was little whilst being supervised, I would *never* purposely leave a child unattended with a dog, no matter how much trust/love there is.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

but at what age would you say a child stops being a child ?

adults can get attacked to


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Legally- 18.

Mentally- variable.

However, if a child in your care was attacked by a dog whilst left unattended, by law you would be responsible. Until/unless I was 100% convinced that no harm could possibly come to them, I wouldn't take the risk. Not fair on the child, or the dog.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

123dragon said:


> adults can get attacked to


This may be so, but an adult is more likely to see the bigger picture if they get attacked, and would put their hand up if it was their fault that the dog attacked. A child is less likely to, IME. Here comes the "My child would never lieeee! :gasp:" brigade...

Besides which, an adult is generally going to have more control over a dog than a small child is in the event of an attack. 

All of this is just my opinion/experience. I know that _I_ could never have it hanging over my head if I left a small child with a dog (or any animal for that matter!) and either one of them got hurt for whatever reason. Trust/love is irrelevant to me. I wouldn't look down on somebody for leaving a sensible small child with a friendly dog, I just know I wouldn't personally want to.


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## EButler (Aug 21, 2011)

Children do some horrible things sometimes and depending on age its because they dont know any different/dont understand. I heard of a 3 year old putting bleach on a kitten/in its mouth, because it thought it was helping and being nice and cleaning the kitten.

A child of that age shouldnt be able to get hold of bleach, let alone be left with an animal on its own. You just dont know whats gonna happen and imagine if that had been a dog, it may not have got away with it so lightly ...


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Some of the comment are here are so scaremongering.

My daughter this very minute is downstairs watching her movies on the couch, my two dogs are on their bed sleeping. Is she in mortal danger NO will she be in mortal danger if either one of those dogs wakes NO.

I've also taught my daughter at the tender age of 2.5 years that under no circumstances is she ever to approach any dog ever even if i am there and i set an example by not stroking every dog i see they don't need to be stroked i can appreciate a dogs behaviour and breed and colour without having to touch it.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

SexyBear77 said:


> Having been attacked by a dog when I was little whilst being supervised, I would *never* purposely leave a child unattended with a dog, no matter how much trust/love there is.





SexyBear77 said:


> Until/unless I was 100% convinced that no harm could possibly come to them, I wouldn't take the risk. Not fair on the child, or the dog.


Are these 2 statements not totally contradictory???

One minute you are saying you would *never* leave a dog no matter how much trust you have in it and the next you're saying until/unless you were 100% convinced that no harm could come to them, you wouldn't take the risk???

I can tell you with my first 4 dogs I was 100% convinced that my children were safe to be left alone in a room with them from being babies and the fact that nothing ever happened proved I was right!


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## lizard_kid (Sep 27, 2010)

gotrek101 said:


> Colosseum got banned :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


 
Did he get banned from that coment?: victory:


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## reptFAN (May 25, 2011)

I trust my akita with my 16 month old son more than i do with most of our family. She has been fantastic with him since the day he was born. Throughout his upbringing he will be taught how to love, treat and RESPECT all dogs.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

feorag said:


> Are these 2 statements not totally contradictory???
> 
> One minute you are saying you would *never* leave a dog no matter how much trust you have in it and the next you're saying until/unless you were 100% convinced that no harm could come to them, you wouldn't take the risk???
> 
> I can tell you with my first 4 dogs I was 100% convinced that my children were safe to be left alone in a room with them from being babies and the fact that nothing ever happened proved I was right!


Nope, not contradictory at all.

You can never, ever be 100% certain about how an animal is going to behave- they have minds of their own.

Therefore, I would never leave a dog alone with a child. I wouldn't ever be foolish enough to think that no harm could possibly come to either the child or the dog. Accidents happen.


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## buggyboy (Mar 7, 2010)

Although my dogs are soft as butter i would never leave them alone with my children. Duke and Roxy ara 9 1/2 years old and never shown any aggresion, but why take the risk. 
I love my dogs far to much to risk puting them to sleep because they did somthing out of character.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

I just don't think it's worth the risk - I wouldn't ever do it, especially not with a breed that has a powerful jaw. 

The thing is, even 'nice' dogs can bite - I know of two family dogs who are brilliant, even tempered animals that have bitten in the past but never done any damage if that makes sense. If they did that to a kid, though, who knows? Doesn't make them bad dogs, though.

I even have my little 6kg dog with about 4 teeth left on a lead when my wee sister is playing about, just in case (toddler) even though she's never ever shown any behaviour to worry about. I've had her 18months and she's old and a rescue so I think it's just more fair on everyone.

Also, it really annoys me when you see people with stressed dogs or unhappy dogs saying things like 'He won't bite' or 'He's good with kids!' just because they haven't bitten YET or because they don't understand doggy body language... 

Sometimes I think there's too much fear about dog bites in general - I hate when you see parents grabbing at their kids when they see a friendly dog playing in a park. 

In some ways, the best way to keep dogs safe is to take them out to lots of places and get them used to as many things as possible, and keep up with their socialisation all through their life but it's so, so hard to do now and I think that's in part where a lot of problems come from. 

In france they still take their dogs everywhere and people are much better at knowing which dogs to leave alone and understanding what's normal behaviour for certain breed types - over here, it's always people who are like 'Oh I love dogs so I'm sure your dog would love a cuddle' - ehm, doesn't work like that. 

Sorry for my ramblings.

Anyway, I'd like to say I think it's a personal choice but tbh kids don't have the privelege of making that decision.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

annabel said:


> I just don't think it's worth the risk - I wouldn't ever do it, especially not with a breed that has a powerful jaw.
> 
> The thing is, even 'nice' dogs can bite - I know of two family dogs who are brilliant, even tempered animals that have bitten in the past but never done any damage if that makes sense. If they did that to a kid, though, who knows? Doesn't make them bad dogs, though.
> 
> ...


See I'd prefer it if people were like that round here, though I think Ozzy gets attention because she's still a pup. 
A woman asked me on friday night if Oz bites, I said she never has yet (I always say this as you never know) She took that as the signal to unleash 7 kids, 2 JRTs and a yapping chihuahua on us :whip: This would have been fine if the kids knew how to stroke a dog and her dogs knew not to bite others dogs back legs! 
In less than a minute of this I ended up with Oz's head pinned between my legs trying to stop her from freaking out, and this woman just laughing at her panicking. 

The only reason I replied to the woman is because Oz has a figure of eight slip lead which most mistake as a muzzle and I didn't want her to feel intimidated. Instead Oz nearly got her ears ripped off and eyes poked out by kids. I tell you I felt bloody intimidated!

I'm sorry but the youngest child was 8! At that age you should have been taught how to approach and stroke a dog! I trust Ozzy with my brothers, but then again we were taught since we could walk how to touch a dog properly :devil:


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

cloggers said:


> See I'd prefer it if people were like that round here, though I think Ozzy gets attention because she's still a pup.
> A woman asked me on friday night if Oz bites, I said she never has yet (I always say this as you never know) She took that as the signal to unleash 7 kids, 2 JRTs and a yapping chihuahua on us :whip: This would have been fine if the kids knew how to stroke a dog and her dogs knew not to bite others dogs back legs!
> In less than a minute of this I ended up with Oz's head pinned between my legs trying to stop her from freaking out, and this woman just laughing at her panicking.
> 
> ...


Yeah definitely that's worse, I do feel your pain - had a failed adoption with a rescue who I had to walk muzzled who was small and fluffy so attracted kids like a moth to a flame. He's got a much quieter home now where hopefully he won't encounter as many triggers, so I've every confidence he'll work through his issues with time - beautiful temperament in the house, bless him.

I actually don't really touch other people's dogs anymore since I've got my own, not sure why so many dog owning people have no common sense whatsoever.

I think if I were you I'd have shouted at the lot of them - if you're not happy with the way they're approaching / touching YOUR dog then tell them!


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## darren81 (Aug 13, 2009)

As a general rule No, But im sure lots of us walk out the room for a moment when were all at home.

But my rottie is great with my kids.

Rottweilers were bred as herding dogs not fighting which is why she doesnt like many people in my area as shes sick of bull S**t.:devil:


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

darren81 said:


> As a general rule No, But im sure lots of us walk out the room for a moment when were all at home.
> 
> But my rottie is great with my kids.
> 
> But rottweilers were bred as herding dogs not fighting which is why she doesnt like many people in my area as shes sick of bull S**t.:devil:


lol! :notworthy:


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## Vena (Aug 24, 2011)

My dog is the dappiest and softest, sweetest creature I could ever hope to meet. My rabbit would chase him around the living room, I never thought he would ever bite someone, as I've never seen him show anything close to aggression before even when he had reason to. But one day our postman came in to use our bathroom and he accidently stood on Stitch's tail, and he nipped. Admittedly he's never really liked the postman much, usually getting crotchety and such. 
I was really suprised, but it proved to me no matter how much I trust my dog I can't ever be sure he wouldn't snap. Luckily it wasn't really anything much to worry about, but I wouldn't leave him alone with children after this despite it was the first time he's ever show the slightest aggression towards anything. It's just not at all worth it.

Although, I'd like to make it known I do not look down on those who do leave their dogs alone with people/children, I trust you wouldn't make that decision with out ample reason.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

lizard_kid said:


> Did he get banned from that coment?: victory:


Yup :lol2:


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## GothGirl (Apr 9, 2008)

I would say that I trust my dog explicitly, but you can never underestimate them.

Every day on a morning my dog goes out in the garden for a wee, she goes to the end of the garden has a wee and comes in, completely ignoring next doors dog.

The other day she went to the bottom as usual, had a wee, turned round and on her way in, had a little woof at next doors dog, and then carried on in.

Now that was only a woof, but the same basic principle applies, it was completely out of character and not something that could have been anticipated as her previous behaviour showed it was not something in her character to do.

I trust my dog, but I would not leave her unsupervised with a child.
But then again I probably would put even money on a unsupervised child doing more mischeif than her lol


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## pottypotter (Jul 27, 2011)

I guess any dog can turn, no matter what their breed. 

I have a terrier cross and an akitamute. Out of the 2, its the terrier cross that is more likely to do anything, he's a little git. 

I know one thing tho, I'd rather leave my kids alone with my dogs than a human. I reckon we are capable of far worse sometimes.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I do trust my akita around my kids, but I would never leave her alone with them.

She has been brilliant with my 3 year old since we got her, and also has watched over my 1 year old since he was born. Hopefully she will be the same when my next is born in a few weeks.

She's never had a go at anyone, but has given a grumble to let me know if the youngest is to close, I don't think she trusts herself!
I think the bigger issue is if you can trust your kids not to hurt or annoy the dog. The dog will react if hurt or threatened, that's natural. My eldest understands how to stroke her, and all my kids will be taught how to respect animals.

Tarron


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Tarron said:


> I do trust my akita around my kids, but I would never leave her alone with them.
> 
> She has been brilliant with my 3 year old since we got her, and also has watched over my 1 year old since he was born. Hopefully she will be the same when my next is born in a few weeks.
> 
> ...


All it takes is for a child to accidently stand on the dogs tail or pull a ear and some dogs will snap.


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## sophs87 (Jan 25, 2009)

I have a shihtzu (not a large or fighting breed i know) usually got a house full of kids, If she is in season then she is kept away 100%, off season she is allowed to mix with the kids as and when she pleases, she has a bed in my room wich the kids are not allowed in so she can get away, Im never far away as we only live in a bungalow lol so they are never unnatended. The children should be taught to respect their dog and vice versa, I have a 5 and 1 year old, the 5 year old is fine, he will have a cuddle with her and emmy is very protective over him, and she is very close with my one year old, with supervised contact, now he is crawling she is never left in the room alone with him unless she is snoozing on the couch xx


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

selina20 said:


> All it takes is for a child to accidently stand on the dogs tail or pull a ear and some dogs will snap.


Exactly, its about being responsible, watching them at all times when they are together. I don't believe in keeping them apart, they have to get used to each other, but just watching and intervening when necessary.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

selina20 said:


> All it takes is for a child to accidently stand on the dogs tail or pull a ear and some dogs will snap.


are you joking me!?!?!?! 
no dog should snap because of being trodden on or poked at. if a dog reacts that way then it needs to be put down.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> are you joking me!?!?!?!
> no dog should snap because of being trodden on or poked at. if a dog reacts that way then it needs to be put down.


What a stupid thing to say.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> are you joking me!?!?!?!
> no dog should snap because of being trodden on or poked at. if a dog reacts that way then it needs to be put down.


so you wouldnt snap If someone booted you In the face? Dogs should be trained to be aware or move out the way of young kids, but if they feel threatened or backed in to a corner they will react in a natural way. No dog can be 100% trusted in 100% of situations. Thats why the onus is on the owner/parent to supervise at all times.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

annabel said:


> What a stupid thing to say.


i dont think so. if your dog bites you because you accidently tred on its paw/tail then you do not have a tame dog. whats to say it wouldnt bite you because you petted it when it didnt want to be? 

if an adult dog reacts that way it would take someone a hell of a lot of effort and time to get that dog safe.

a young dog would be easier to adapt but you would always have to consider the fact that you own a dangerous dog.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Tarron said:


> so you wouldnt snap If someone booted you In the face? Dogs should be trained to be aware or move out the way of young kids, but if they feel threatened or backed in to a corner they will react in a natural way. No dog can be 100% trusted in 100% of situations. Thats why the onus is on the owner/parent to supervise at all times.


i am a human being! and no1 mentioned kicking a dog in the face. 

dogs should indeed be trained not to get under your feet. however sometimes it does happen and if my dog reacted agressively to anything i do i would have serious issues and have to sort them out. 

you should be able to feel safe around your dog, all be it you can not control what goes on in their head 100% but no dog should ever have it in their mind set that they can bite or be agressive. 

a tame dog which is attacked will usually hide/run away in fear. a tame dog that in around people arguing should hide away. 

the normal behaviour from a dog when accidently trod on is to yelp and scurry a little then turn around waiting for a sorry stroke. 

good behaviour for a dog being prodded and poked at by children is to either put up with it, as they would from puppies or hide away and leave the children.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> i dont think so. if your dog bites you because you accidently tred on its paw/tail then you do not have a tame dog. whats to say it wouldnt bite you because you petted it when it didnt want to be?
> 
> if an adult dog reacts that way it would take someone a hell of a lot of effort and time to get that dog safe.
> 
> a young dog would be easier to adapt but you would always have to consider the fact that you own a dangerous dog.


Pain overrides training and instincts take over, if it's bad enough. If you step on your dog while it's sleeping then it won't have a chance to think about it, instincts could take over.

I agree, normal behaviour is to scurry away - and my dog has never bitten, for the record - but don't assume they'll ALWAYS do that. Most dogs that bite have a reason - pain, fear, feeling threatened, defense etc. I don't think a dog that bit when it got booted is neccessarily an aggressive dog, just a dog!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

annabel said:


> Pain overrides training and instincts take over, if it's bad enough. If you step on your dog while it's sleeping then it won't have a chance to think about it, instincts will take over!


what a load of rubbish. sorry but theres no way my dog would bite me for tredding on him when hes asleep! no chance! ive done it! 

i can stick my hand in his mouth, cut his claws, had to treat his paw when badly stung by an insect. 

he trusts me and is very secure in himself. he could possibly bite but not in that situation, he has nipped at another dog before and when i put my hand to him he didnt even consider going for it. 

i play with him putting my hand in his mouth and growling. he wont even growl at me let alone put any pressure on my hand.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Any dog, no matter how tame or trained, will, under the right circumstances, use aggression. If they feel threatened, or backed into corner, they will do what they have to, to get away. Frankly, I think, If you don't have that thought In the back of your mind then you could be putting your dog or children at risk.

I do agree that all dogs, that will be around children at any point, should be socialised enough to know how to react properly around them my girl gives a mumble/grumble to let me know they are too close, and will move out of their way, but I always ensure she isn't alone with them, as it only takes 1 second for it all to go wrong.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> what a load of rubbish. sorry but theres no way my dog would bite me for tredding on him when hes asleep! no chance! ive done it!
> 
> i can stick my hand in his mouth, cut his claws, had to treat his paw when badly stung by an insect.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I changed 'will' for could - it's not a definite.

Basically - you have your opinion, go for it. I think it's totally unfair never to expect a dog to bite ever - that's completely different from expecting a dog to use a bite as a very last resort.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Tarron said:


> Any dog, no matter how tame or trained, will, under the right circumstances, use aggression. If they feel threatened, or backed into corner, they will do what they have to, to get away. Frankly, I think, If you don't have that thought In the back of your mind then you could be putting your dog or children at risk.
> 
> I do agree that all dogs, that will be around children at any point, should be socialised enough to know how to react properly around them my girl gives a mumble/grumble to let me know they are too close, and will move out of their way, but I always ensure she isn't alone with them, as it only takes 1 second for it all to go wrong.


i dont dispute that at all. my dog is played with by children of all ages in the family, supervised and they will play rough with him, pick him up, roll around on the floor with him, on him etc and he is never given an indication of fustration or fear. he enjoys the interaction, the children are taught how to play with him but with very young children they will pull his ears or stick their hands in his mouth occassionally and he sits and allows then to investigate him. when hes had enough he will just stroll off.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> what a load of rubbish. sorry but theres no way my dog would bite me for tredding on him when hes asleep! no chance! ive done it!
> 
> i can stick my hand in his mouth, cut his claws, had to treat his paw when badly stung by an insect.
> 
> ...


Well let's hope, for your sake and the dogs, that you don't get the 1 second of the dog not thinking.

And as for the last sentence, surely that's just tempting fate?

For the record, I've never been bitten by any dog, and neither have my Immediate family, inc kids, as we were taught how to treat dogs, and were never alone with them until old enough.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> i dont dispute that at all. my dog is played with by children of all ages in the family, supervised and they will play rough with him, pick him up, roll around on the floor with him, on him etc and he is never given an indication of fustration or fear. he enjoys the interaction, the children are taught how to play with him but with very young children they will pull his ears or stick their hands in his mouth occassionally and he sits and allows then to investigate him. when hes had enough he will just stroll off.


We obviously both have the same conclusion, just different ideas of dog behaviour. I don't mean to offend you or your ways (in case I did) but I would never trust kids and dogs 100% unsupervised.

People round my street let their 5/6 year de take their dogs for walks, they're not even on the same street as parents, so anything can happen there. (slightly off topic, sorry)


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Tarron said:


> We obviously both have the same conclusion, just different ideas of dog behaviour. I don't mean to offend you or your ways (in case I did) but I would never trust kids and dogs 100% unsupervised.
> 
> People round my street let their 5/6 year de take their dogs for walks, they're not even on the same street as parents, so anything can happen there. (slightly off topic, sorry)


 
i do agree that is very wrong, dogs attack other dogs more often then we realise i think! 

as i said i dont leave children and my dogs unsupervised for more than a 
moment, like walking in and out of the room. 

i dont 'temp fate' but playing with my dog, he enjoys the rough play just wont be tough back, he gently holds my hand in his mouth as i tussle him around. the fact that i can push for agressive behaviours from him and still not get them shows he knows his place and is well disciplined. i dont phsyically punish my dogs or shout at them - ever! 
they are pinned down on their side when disciplined, as alfa dog would do to them and get a gently prod in the neck when told off or the finger pointed at them. though i havnt had to do this for some time. only when the post man comes becomes the post man continues to encourage him to jump up at him! arrrggghhh! he knows hes not allowed to jump up but he can resist giving someone a lick and a cuddle if invited to do so. 

my dog has also been trained not to approch people, children or other dogs unless i or another alfa gives him permission.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

lovemysnakes said:


> are you joking me!?!?!?!
> no dog should snap because of being trodden on or poked at. if a dog reacts that way then it needs to be put down.


I totally agree with you....except the PTS part because even a dog that vicious can be rehabbed in my opinion.

No dog should bite a person because they've been accidentally stood on...i've accidentally run over my dogs foot a few times with the buggy if he had bit me i'd have been gobsmacked and floored by his over reaction.

I think it would take quite a show of aggression or violence towards him to actually make him do a proper bite rather than a threat of one.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i know dogs can be rehabilitated but i dont like to think of just anyone owning a dog that is more potencially dangerous than the average dog. 
a dog that has bitten a human being remembers the power they had, i feel a dog should be declined of knowing that power in order to make them more safe and safe enough to be around my loved ones. 

i was asked to care for a rottie by an elderly lady whos husband had passed away. 
the rottie named rose was very elderly herself and was very tempremental. 
she had bad joints and was a bit funny in the head having mood swings. 

at first she wasnt so bad and was not agressive, she just like to herd us lol. when she began to show signs or agression towards us we had her put down. she clearly became easily confused in her old age and therefore she was a danger plus she was in pain with her joints. 

rose was not treated as a family dog and was never left in a room with anyone on their own. she had the run of the garden all day and had the dinning room as her bedroom. she was a nice girl bless her, she was just old and batty. lol


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

lovemysnakes said:


> i was asked to care for a rottie by an elderly lady whos husband had passed away.
> the rottie named rose was very elderly herself and was very tempremental.
> she had bad joints and was a bit funny in the head having mood swings.
> 
> at first she wasnt so bad and was not agressive, she just like to herd us lol. when she began to show signs or agression towards us we had her put down. she clearly became easily confused in her old age and therefore she was a danger plus she was in pain with her joints.


Thats fair enough though but in my head its a seperate issues because the dog was elderly and showing signs of what appeared to be dementia. This was not a healthy adult dog. My aunty had a dog that was covered in tumours and was elderly deaf and partially sighted i was very young when she was this old and i was bitten by her twice that i can remember because i wanted to stroke her and didnt realise that approaching her while shes asleep cannot hear or see me was a BAD idea but the adults around were not watching properly and the second bite i recieved was the decider in having that dog finally put out of her suffering.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Marinam2 said:


> Thats fair enough though but in my head its a seperate issues because the dog was elderly and showing signs of what appeared to be dementia. This was not a healthy adult dog. My aunty had a dog that was covered in tumours and was elderly deaf and partially sighted i was very young when she was this old and i was bitten by her twice that i can remember because i wanted to stroke her and didnt realise that approaching her while shes asleep cannot hear or see me was a BAD idea but the adults around were not watching properly and the second bite i recieved was the decider in having that dog finally put out of her suffering.


thats fair with an elderly dog. though i have come across some very angry dogs which are in a family setting and believe they should not be in a family setting as they are risking someone being bitten. 

dogs should be vetted as well as owners. this is why i like rescues and rehoming.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

Just like to apologise for my outburst the other day sorry if it offended anyone was a case of engaging the mouth before brain 

Good day


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## Spider Call (Mar 23, 2007)

I wouldn't leave a baby alone with my two, simply because they were bred in a house with a new born baby. When ever they see a pram they try to get in wagging and licking. I would be worried that they would suffocate it. 
However, my 5&6 year old neices are left alone with them. If they are heavy handed in front of me they are warned. Both dogs will growl once they have had enough, and I have explained that if they continue after my dogs have growled they are likely to get bitten. At which point if they don't stop they had better not come crying to me when they get bitten.

I was bitten on the face by my god mothers dog when I was young. I had been playing and fell on top of her. She was a snappy dog, but I was never bitten again.


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## darren81 (Aug 13, 2009)

Yep here's a photo of him in the park lol.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

Marinam2 said:


> No dog should bite a person because they've been accidentally stood on...i've accidentally run over my dogs foot a few times with the buggy if he had bit me i'd have been gobsmacked and floored by his over reaction.
> 
> I think it would take quite a show of aggression or violence towards him to actually make him do a proper bite rather than a threat of one.


I agree, the amount of times I've accidentally stood on paws or her tail, I rarely get a huff. She just leaps out the way. Same way as about half an hour ago my brother accidentally stood on her, even though she's in season and grumpy as hell, she dragged herself up and moved out of his way. If she were to swing and bite him just because he stood on her, she wouldn't be in the house.

As much as I appreciate that dogs act on instinct first they should still have some self control. I've also seem dogs swing to bite then stop the minute they see who it is. I made Ozzy jump one night and she swung round with her mouth open yet dropped to the floor when she saw it was me. So the ability to restrain themselves is certainly there.



darren81 said:


> Yep here's a photo of him in the park lol.
> 
> image


That is one hell of a muzzle! Bit like Hannibal Lector.
Cute kid and a gorgeous dog


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

cloggers said:


> I agree, the amount of times I've accidentally stood on paws or her tail, I rarely get a huff. She just leaps out the way. Same way as about half an hour ago my brother accidentally stood on her, even though she's in season and grumpy as hell, she dragged herself up and moved out of his way. If she were to swing and bite him just because he stood on her, she wouldn't be in the house.
> 
> As much as I appreciate that dogs act on instinct first they should still have some self control. I've also seem dogs swing to bite then stop the minute they see who it is. I made Ozzy jump one night and she swung round with her mouth open yet dropped to the floor when she saw it was me. So the ability to restrain themselves is certainly there.


As you know Skye has a load of anxieties and reacts instinctively, usually without thought, but if he's stood on accidentally he yelps and gets out of the way. 

Lord knows he's been stood on or knocked often enough because of his need to be your extra *rse, so 2" from you, but even if he's been asleep and someone has had to step over him and accidentally stood on him, he's never gone to bite.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i think this is the case for most dogs. if a dogs first reaction is to bite then i dont think that dog is safe to have in a family home at all. 
ive done a hell of a lot of dog training and with battersea dogs home too. to me it isnt a case of self disciplin in the dog but the owners self disciplin and how they have trained the dog. dogs are instinctive...if you train them so they think a bite = punishment or death then they will not bite unless something goes seriously wrong. 

to a dog, their main goals are survival and companionship. everyone knows how a dog can miss a person, if the dog does something wrong then a great training tool is to ignore the dog and leave it isolated for a very breif period. they strongly fear not being a part of the pack as this would be determental to their survival. 
it would be illogical for them to displease the alfa, even deadly in their minds. if you have this down and your dog knows you are god then i would say you have a pretty safe dog.


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

For me the general rule of thumb is no matter how well you _think _you know your beloved dog (or any pet for that matter) you do not know them entirely 100% - FACT.

You can trust them and believe them to be trustworthy but all it takes is 1 second and the damage is done.

I can never understand folk who allow their dogs to walk off the lead next to a main road? Again, you may have complete trust in them but you just don't know, anything could happen.

I trust my dog to be fine around my tortoise but I would never leave her unsupervised, she's a kind natured dog but you simply do not know. I see it if you love the pet then as a responsible owner you owe it to them to keep them safe and away from any possible harm or temptation : victory:.


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## darren81 (Aug 13, 2009)

cloggers said:


> I agree, the amount of times I've accidentally stood on paws or her tail, I rarely get a huff. She just leaps out the way. Same way as about half an hour ago my brother accidentally stood on her, even though she's in season and grumpy as hell, she dragged herself up and moved out of his way. If she were to swing and bite him just because he stood on her, she wouldn't be in the house.
> 
> As much as I appreciate that dogs act on instinct first they should still have some self control. I've also seem dogs swing to bite then stop the minute they see who it is. I made Ozzy jump one night and she swung round with her mouth open yet dropped to the floor when she saw it was me. So the ability to restrain themselves is certainly there.
> 
> ...


Thanks dont put it her all that often normally if i think theres going to be a lot of people about.

All the others i had she managed to pull off, that one came from Israel.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

sorry why do you use it?


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## MissCat (Mar 9, 2009)

Had a labrador when I was little. Not a breed known for being "dangerous". Until she tried to tear my brothers (who was 3) face off. Turns out she had a brain tumour, there's no way we could have known that this was going to happen. If mum had not been in the room when it happened, who knows what the end result would have been.


So no, I would never leave a child unattended with a dog of any breed/age etc.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

darren81 said:


> Thanks dont put it her all that often normally if i think theres going to be a lot of people about.
> 
> All the others i had she managed to pull off, that one came from Israel.


Best to use it and not need it, just shows responsibilty : victory:. Does she get agitated with lots of people about.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i just dont understand why a well trained dog would need a mussel. 
it gives dogs a bad reputation, especially rotties. so many people fear them.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> i just dont understand why a well trained dog would need a mussel.


:lol2: maybe it likes sea food


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

I've got a JRT x and i wouldnt dream of leaving him alone with any child no matter what age they are, Ive had him 4-5 years now and i still wouldnt trust him around children.

Im requesting to mods that the title of this thread be changed also.





mstypical said:


> I have an American Pit Bull and I would leave her alone with my daughter. There are circumstances around my daughter and this dog and I trust my dog with her implicitly
> 
> image
> 
> Photo is old-ish, my girl is 7 now


Well done you, How stupid can one person be to not only think that there Staffie ( Poss staffie x ) is a Pit Bull but then to boast about ona public forum which the police are monitoring which is putting your dogs life at risk, How very selfish.


I havent managed to read through all the pages as no doubt theyll be full of time wasting jibberships, like the majority of these threads are or have been.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Well done you, How stupid can one person be to not only think that there Staffie ( Poss staffie x ) is a Pit Bull but then to boast about ona public forum which the police are monitoring which is putting your dogs life at risk, How very selfish


Wow youre and angry little man arent you......that dog is a pitbull LOL and shes very much legal. Secondly why are the police monitoring this forum have they been asked to??? To find out what???

Think you need to go and put your mouth on the toilet!!!!


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mstypical's dog is a tattooed and licensed 'American Pit-bull' which she was sold as a... pointer/staffie cross was it?? I think that's what was said. Anyway if you had read the whole thread you would have seen it is not an ilegally kept dog.

I agree the thread title should be changed, it does seem a bit provokative.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Wow youre and angry little man arent you......that dog is a pitbull LOL and shes very much legal. Secondly why are the police monitoring this forum have they been asked to??? To find out what???
> 
> Think you need to go and put your mouth on the toilet!!!!


 
Ive been around quite a few pit bulls both American Style and European Style, So when i see a cross breed i see a cross breed  If it has been idenitfied and the police only go by a measurement sheet which pretty much every bull breed come into and is potientaly a pit. Ive seen the form they use and its a joke. 

Im not a angry person either, Nor am i a little man im an average 5ft 10 so not too little nor too tall :lol2:

Police are monitoring this, Ive been contacted in the past by police over something that was posted on here.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

em_40 said:


> Mstypical's dog is a tattooed and licensed 'American Pit-bull' which she was sold as a... pointer/staffie cross was it?? I think that's what was said. Anyway if you had read the whole thread you would have seen it is not an ilegally kept dog.
> 
> I agree the thread title should be changed, it does seem a bit provokative.


 
Well i do apologise for speaking before ive read the entire thread, but ill stand by my above post, more than likely be an "estate pit bull" something that is bred to look like a pit will be sieze as one and identifed as one but wont be an acutally pit or pit cross as actual pits are very much rare here now the majority of the ones now are either many generation crosses or estate pit bulls.

Edit ot add:

Also just because a dog has been identified once wont stop it being seized again, ive seen this happen a fair few times.


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

A dog added to the exempt dogs register (which is not quite the same as 'licenced') but does render the dog legal (if it is neutered, tattooed on the inside thigh with its registration number, insured and muzzled and on a lead in public and under the control of someone over 18 i think)...

It does not mean it is ACTUALLY an American Pit Bull Terrier - it means it fits the woefully stupid and ill thought out criteria set by DEFRA.

Interestingly, you can make a labrador fit that criteria by around 95% (which is all you'd need to have a dog deemed 'of pitbull type').

If a dog is identified, added to the register and the conditions of being added to the register are adhered to, then no a dog cannot be seized again UNLESS it commits an offence. (Just as any dog that commits an offence in a public place could be seized).

(I was involved in the set up of the organisation Deed Not Breed many years ago, and involved in some of the events publicising it and advising people in Liverpool when they had their atrocious 'dog holocaust').


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Well i do apologise for speaking before ive read the entire thread, but ill stand by my above post, more than likely be an "estate pit bull" something that is bred to look like a pit will be sieze as one and identifed as one but wont be an acutally pit or pit cross as actual pits are very much rare here now the majority of the ones now are either many generation crosses or estate pit bulls.
> 
> Edit ot add:
> 
> Also just because a dog has been identified once wont stop it being seized again, ive seen this happen a fair few times.


I didn't say it was a pure American pit-bull, but the law says it is one because it fits into their little chart as one. I agree with you, I think it's stupid that a dog that fits certain measurments is then classed as dangerous. My point was that it is legal, and if she was contacted by the police regarding her dog she would just have to show it's tattooed etc. She's not at risk of having her dog taken away from her again, because she's gone about it the 'right' way.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Emmabeth said:


> A dog added to the exempt dogs register (which is not quite the same as 'licenced') but does render the dog legal (if it is neutered, tattooed on the inside thigh with its registration number, insured and muzzled and on a lead in public and under the control of someone over 18 i think)...
> 
> It does not mean it is ACTUALLY an American Pit Bull Terrier - it means it fits the woefully stupid and ill thought out criteria set by DEFRA.
> 
> ...


Put it better than i could of myself, but i have known dogs be re-seized when there been a "naff" up with the police.


Anyway maybe this thread should get back onto topic, now that has been clear up.

Im a firm believer that no dog no matter how old/young, how long youve had it or the breeds should be left alone with a child no matter what age the child may be, You cant guarentee 100% that something may trigger a bite,snap. snarl ect and it does only take a second. I child pulling a dog ears, tripping over the dog, proding and poking it anything no matter how safe you believe your dog to be, They may have off days like us.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

em_40 said:


> I didn't say it was a pure American pit-bull, but the law says it is one because it fits into their little chart as one. I agree with you, I think it's stupid that a dog that fits certain measurments is then classed as dangerous. My point was that it is legal, and if she was contacted by the police regarding her dog she would just have to show it's tattooed etc. She's not at risk of having her dog taken away from her again, because she's gone about it the 'right' way.


Argeed, but if it was me i still wouldnt be public posting it breeds it bring on all the wrong sort of attention. There are a lot of these "type" of dogs going missing lately maybe im just more caution than the "average" ( hate that word ) person because ive seen and heard the worse story imaginable ( the ones that arent publised )


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Forgot to add the reason why i have asked to have the title changed.

As the title stands 
"*Do you leave your fighting bred dog alone with your babies? "*

Why is it just aimed at fighting breeds but then goes onto to talk about Dobermanns ( a non fighting breed ) labs another none fighting breed.

I requested it be changed to

*"Would you leave your dog alone with your children?"*
Because it seem to fit better and would possibly cause less of a heated debate since it covers all breeds and not just aimed at certain breeds.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

To be totally honest if you'd read the thread most of us ignored the "fighting dog" bit and just gave our opinions on trusting dogs around children. 

I honestly don't think the debate has been heated at all because of the "fighting dog" mentioned in the title.

I just think it's "nit picking"


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

feorag said:


> I honestly don't think the debate has been heated at all because of the "fighting dog" mentioned in the title.


Considering the controversial topic and large amount of opinions, I don't think this thread has been particularly heated at all. Must be a first for RFUK. :lol2: 

It has been a rather interesting topic IMO. :2thumb:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree - I've found it very interesting reading all the opinions given and I think that's what has been happening on this thread.

People have given their opinions and apart from one controversial post by someone who was consquently banned and subsequently came back on and apologised for their post, I don't there's been any aggression or any of the bitching and backbiting that you normally see on a large forum of diverse people like RFUK.

Personally I think this sort of thread is what forums like this are all about. Diverse opinions from diverse people giving reasons for decisions that they've made as to whether or not they allow their dogs to be left alone with their children.

The value is to be able to see both sides of the argument. 

Fighting dogs have rarely been mentioned.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

I didnt mean to has become heated i meant it may become heated.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well there's been 179 posts and it hasn't become heated yet, so I doubt very much that it will now.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

feorag said:


> Well there's been 179 posts and it hasn't become heated yet, so I doubt very much that it will now.


 
Once i get back ill read through them all, Im on my phone at minute and it makes reading a tad hard.


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## darren81 (Aug 13, 2009)

cloggers said:


> Best to use it and not need it, just shows responsibilty : victory:. Does she get agitated with lots of people about.


Yea she tends to and she can get a bit nasty to other dogs she rather protective. 

She has also grabbed hold of a few people never bitten but it's like she's holds them in her mouth think she's over that now but I like to be safe if I think it'd going to be busy


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

feorag said:


> To be totally honest if you'd read the thread most of us ignored the "fighting dog" bit and just gave our opinions on trusting dogs around children.
> 
> I honestly don't think the debate has been heated at all because of the "fighting dog" mentioned in the title.
> 
> I just think it's "nit picking"


I ignored the title also. Rottweilers were used and bred as guarding and hearding dogs they were built for stamina (PAH try telling mine that) not fighting or aggressing.

I also read the thread (makes a change doesnt it) and noted that many of the respondants had ignored the title and replied accordingly so i joined in.


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## Cleo27 (Jan 9, 2010)

If people (younger kids visiting etc.) are in a room, my dog is free to wander wherever he likes, he doesn't really bother to go near them much, and he just ADORES kids lol. Of course, this isn't to say that he would never bite if provoked, because all dogs would- so really there is always someone looking and keeping a watchful eye, purely because I do not trust kids, or anyone for that matter, with my dog lol.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Forgot to add the reason why i have asked to have the title changed.
> 
> As the title stands
> "*Do you leave your fighting bred dog alone with your babies? "*
> ...


 
i originally thought most people would be very happy to leave their poodle in a room with a child/baby.
now i realise that most people wouldnt be happy to leave their small dog in a room alone with a child as much as they wouldnt their large dog. 

i think this has been the best contrast about this thread, that people really dont hold that much stigma towards specific breeds but accpet that all dogs, no matter what they are on the outside have the same foundation of instincts and it is their mind which is the most important thing when considering if they are safe. 

and wanted to encourage the discussion of fighting bred dogs such as pit balls and staffies. the reason for this is because my dad took on a fighting staff. he was lovely if he knew you but there was always the worry that something would happen. especially if there were visitors or when taking him for a walk. 

i guess i should have put in herding and guard dogs such as dobermans and rotties. 
ive had a couple of rotties and grew up with three dobermans. in my experience they are all bark and no bite and generally speaking i feel it would be unsafe to leave such a large dog around babies for the simple reason that all it takes is for the dog to be affectionate and a baby could be suffocated. this goes for labs too, though i personally believe labs can be a lot more energetic and more likely to knock something or someone over. 


feorag said:


> To be totally honest if you'd read the thread most of us ignored the "fighting dog" bit and just gave our opinions on trusting dogs around children.
> 
> I honestly don't think the debate has been heated at all because of the "fighting dog" mentioned in the title.
> 
> I just think it's "nit picking"


thanks. i honestly didnt mean for it to be a heated debate, i was just more interested in what stigma goes towards specific breeds. 



LoveForLizards said:


> Considering the controversial topic and large amount of opinions, I don't think this thread has been particularly heated at all. Must be a first for RFUK. :lol2:
> 
> It has been a rather interesting topic IMO. :2thumb:


i think so and im very glad that i started the thread. overall i think the majority of people do like dogs and even those that are not keen do tollerate them. perhaps it is the beauty of dogs that this thread hasnt been ruined. 

perhaps we all want to trust our dogs but we are realistic in order to protect them. 



darren81 said:


> Yea she tends to and she can get a bit nasty to other dogs she rather protective.
> 
> She has also grabbed hold of a few people never bitten but it's like she's holds them in her mouth think she's over that now but I like to be safe if I think it'd going to be busy


this i do not think is good at all. im sorry if you find my comment offensive but you really need to think more about training. your dog has no right to grab hold of anyone and should as a safe dog feel comfortable in busy places. 

i dont believe you have very well trained your dog and that more investment is needed. 



Marinam2 said:


> I ignored the title also. Rottweilers were used and bred as guarding and hearding dogs they were built for stamina (PAH try telling mine that) not fighting or aggressing.
> 
> I also read the thread (makes a change doesnt it) and noted that many of the respondants had ignored the title and replied accordingly so i joined in.


feel free to ignore the title, the responses have served their purpose for me. 

many thanks


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

I would never risk it. We have 3 dogs a staff who can be extremely hyper although he is friendly he's a 53lb ball of muscle who could easily send a child flying. Our rottie is a dopey lazy friendly dog bless her but still her size and weight can easily injure a child. Lastly our akita is a puppy but when full grown she will still be too big. It's just too risky a dog can be unpredictable at any or accidently do something.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

agreed  

btw what does reem mean?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I wouldnt trust my minature poodle with anybody let alone children!


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Shell195 said:


> I wouldnt trust my minature poodle with anybody let alone children!


 
doesnt that concern you that your not doing something right? that your dog must be unsettled in some way?


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## Ste123 (Apr 30, 2011)

I wonder how many of the dog owners we hear about in the news whose dog attacked a child in a house thought their dog was well trained and would never hurt anybody before it happened. 

Normally the response is "oh a dog loved that child and was do protective we just don't know what made it happen we're in shock"


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> doesnt that concern you that your not doing something right? that your dog must be unsettled in some way?


I think you are in the mind set that everyone goes out and buys a lovely fluffy little puppy with no issues. 

Some people don't, some of us are clearing up issues left by previous lives that were often not that good. 

As much as you can try to make a damaged dog happy, secure and "normal", scars last even the mental scars and resulting behaviours, and sometimes they last longer than the life span of the dog.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That's exactly the reason why i don't wholly trust my dog! He's the result of wrong handling as a puppy and we've been trying for the last 18 months to rehabilitate him into the dog he would have been, had he gone to the right home at 8 weeks.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

lovemysnakes said:


> doesnt that concern you that your not doing something right? that your dog must be unsettled in some way?


 
I got her at 6 months old her previous owners kids broke her leg and tried to cook her in the oven, she had never been socialised, let in the garden, been fed dog food, groomed or given water to drink(she relied on drinking dregs of tea from cups) so yes she is unsettled. Shes now 13 and epileptic so we forgive her due to her history!

We are aware of her snapping so people ae warned and she isnt allowed near children.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Kare said:


> I think you are in the mind set that everyone goes out and buys a lovely fluffy little puppy with no issues.
> 
> Some people don't, some of us are clearing up issues left by previous lives that were often not that good.
> 
> As much as you can try to make a damaged dog happy, secure and "normal", scars last even the mental scars and resulting behaviours, and sometimes they last longer than the life span of the dog.


Exactly Kare, not all dogs are normal happy dogs when we get them.


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## spideysare (Aug 23, 2011)

Shell195 said:


> I got her at 6 months old her previous owners kids broke her leg and tried to cook her in the oven, she had never been socialised, let in the garden, been fed dog food, groomed or given water to drink(she relied on drinking dregs of tea from cups) so yes she is unsettled. Shes now 13 and epileptic so we forgive her due to her history!
> 
> We are aware of her snapping so people ae warned and she isnt allowed near children.


Oh my god...I8 hope whoever owned your dog before hand was treated in accordance with how they treated that dog.. I am an avid animal lovery and have very strong, ney obsessive thoguths on how animals should be treated including husbandry for cattle etc..Sadly due to my inability to sympathise with anyone who mistreats any animal means I can never go for a job working for liek of RSPCA.. as i fear what I would do.But it like thisthe hedges near my home were all cut in August..Now arent farmers meant to be guardians of the countryside..How are they doing this when removing essential berries and other food stuffs for our birds during winter..

Sorry for rant!! But whoever had your dogs before your good self, I hope they rot in hell...:devil:

I am still seething and have no vent...Grrrrrrrr


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

spideysare said:


> Oh my god...I8 hope whoever owned your dog before hand was treated in accordance with how they treated that dog.. I am an avid animal lovery and have very strong, ney obsessive thoguths on how animals should be treated including husbandry for cattle etc..Sadly due to my inability to sympathise with anyone who mistreats any animal means I can never go for a job working for liek of RSPCA.. as i fear what I would do.But it like thisthe hedges near my home were all cut in August..Now arent farmers meant to be guardians of the countryside..How are they doing this when removing essential berries and other food stuffs for our birds during winter..
> 
> Sorry for rant!! But whoever had your dogs before your good self, I hope they rot in hell...:devil:
> 
> I am still seething and have no vent...Grrrrrrrr


 
Sadly the RSPCA wouldnt do anything as we removed her before calling them. We knew these people which makes it even worse:bash: Sadly if we had known that this had gone on sooner we could have done something to prevent it 

Most of my dogs have a bad history and I feel privelaged to be trusted by them


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

Kare said:


> I think you are in the mind set that everyone goes out and buys a lovely fluffy little puppy with no issues.
> 
> Some people don't, some of us are clearing up issues left by previous lives that were often not that good.
> 
> As much as you can try to make a damaged dog happy, secure and "normal", scars last even the mental scars and resulting behaviours, and sometimes they last longer than the life span of the dog.


not for a moment would i assume this. i have rescued many dogs and know all too well how some can not be rehabiliated enough to be considered family dogs. my issue is with the owners. 
a damged dog takes a hell of a lot more care than a stable dog. 

people must realise that it is the equilavent of taking on a child. 

too many people work all day long and leave their dogs at home alone. dogs that are damged need constant daily support, training, socialising, exercise and disciplined diets. 



Shell195 said:


> Exactly Kare, not all dogs are normal happy dogs when we get them.


indeed this is sadly often the case. but a physically and psychologically damaged dog can be rehabilitated with the correct owner. 

again, my problem is that people will carry out rehab on a dog until a certain level and once they feel the dogs behaviour is acceptable will stop putting in as much work. 

the standards most people have for how their dogs should be, psychologically and phsyically is far too low in my opinion. 

this then makes dogs less safe. 



spideysare said:


> Oh my god...I8 hope whoever owned your dog before hand was treated in accordance with how they treated that dog.. I am an avid animal lovery and have very strong, ney obsessive thoguths on how animals should be treated including husbandry for cattle etc..Sadly due to my inability to sympathise with anyone who mistreats any animal means I can never go for a job working for liek of RSPCA.. as i fear what I would do.But it like thisthe hedges near my home were all cut in August..Now arent farmers meant to be guardians of the countryside..How are they doing this when removing essential berries and other food stuffs for our birds during winter..
> 
> Sorry for rant!! But whoever had your dogs before your good self, I hope they rot in hell...:devil:
> 
> I am still seething and have no vent...Grrrrrrrr


i feel the same although have done work with the rspca and battersea dogs home. ive seen some very tragic and painful situations. 

not enough people are prosecuted for the mistreatment of animals. ignorance is no excuse! and children that abuse animals are very likely to become abusive towards people if they are not already. 

children that abuse animals should undergo therapy and assessments in order to ensure they understand the consequences of their actions and what it means to be a good or bad person.

when you rescue a dog they are usually very strict regarding the environment they let that dog go into. 

this should also be done by breeders. 

there is no good reason why a breeder shouldnt invest time in getting to know the home and set up a dog they bred is going into and shouldnt have follow up appointments once the dog is homed. 

with every animal i have purchased or taken on i keep in contact with the breeder, rescue center or previous owner. this gives me a sense of acomplishment and the previous carer reassurance.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

lovemysnakes said:


> indeed this is sadly often the case. but a physically and psychologically damaged dog can be rehabilitated with the correct owner.
> 
> again, my problem is that people will carry out rehab on a dog until a certain level and once they feel the dogs behaviour is acceptable will stop putting in as much work.
> 
> the standards most people have for how their dogs should be, psychologically and phsyically is far too low in my opinion.


In a distant way I kind of understand what you mean. There are people who I have met who state they cannot do simple things with their dogs, such as expect it to come back, as "they are a rescue"

Like I said above, not that problems cannot be fixed but that sometimes fixing them is such a long road that the life span of the dog is shorter than the time that would have been needed to have "fixed" them completely. I am sure that Shell's dog has taken many positive steps forward behaviour wise in the time they have been with her.

However on the other hand I do think that there are some lines not to what you COULD do, but actually as to what is right on balance for the dog. When you take on a dog with issues there should be priorities as to what you expect short term and longer term. With this the saying have the Strength to change what you can, the patience to accept what cannot be changed and the wisdom to know the difference. If you have a dog who is scared of children, and you have no children and have no need to make it ok with children because you can manage that weakness, forcing it to learn to socialise with children, no matter how slowly and positively that is brought about, well, are you doing the dog a kindness? Really? My wisdom would say the fear triggered on balance will not gain anything for that dog, not being around children will not be detrimental to that dog I would say that that training would not really be in the dogs best interests.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

but intereaction with children can not be avoided. unless you live somewhere with an average age of 70 lol.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Kare said:


> In a distant way I kind of understand what you mean. There are people who I have met who state they cannot do simple things with their dogs, such as expect it to come back, as "they are a rescue"
> 
> Like I said above, not that problems cannot be fixed but that sometimes fixing them is such a long road that the life span of the dog is shorter than the time that would have been needed to have "fixed" them completely. I am sure that Shell's dog has taken many positive steps forward behaviour wise in the time they have been with her.
> 
> However on the other hand I do think that there are some lines not to what you COULD do, but actually as to what is right on balance for the dog. When you take on a dog with issues there should be priorities as to what you expect short term and longer term. With this the saying have the Strength to change what you can, the patience to accept what cannot be changed and the wisdom to know the difference. If you have a dog who is scared of children, and you have no children and have no need to make it ok with children because you can manage that weakness, forcing it to learn to socialise with children, no matter how slowly and positively that is brought about, well, are you doing the dog a kindness? Really? My wisdom would say the fear triggered on balance will not gain anything for that dog, not being around children will not be detrimental to that dog I would say that that training would not really be in the dogs best interests.


I agree that a dog 'being a rescue' is no excuse, my dog came from a dogs home after being in there for over 7 months, she wouldn't listen to a word we said and was extremely hyperactive. A short time later she will sit, lie down, give paw, wait/stay, get in bed, come back on call and is fantastic with children and strangers. 

However I disagree about child-socialising. All dogs should be tolerant of children, I have had children sneak into my back garden and be stroking my dog before i've had chance to get out there. Luckily she's great with kids, but there are so many things that *could* lead to any dog being in contact with children, that if you fail to socialise your dog and it bites a child, you are responsible for the childs trauma and the death of the dog.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

You seem to be heading off subject. We are talking on the subject of dogs and children being left alone together, not of dogs that will run across a park to eat a child. 

I would be very concerned about leaving my dog unattended where children could come in and get to them uninvited, if a kid can get to them so can some adult stealing them as a bait dog. As I have said before however the only time our dogs are out of our sight is when they are SECURE within our own property and that includes all necessary measures to ensure no one can get access, barring them causing criminal damage.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

a dog should never ever be left with a child there are no excuses at all, no dog is 100% trustworthy and when accidents happen then it makes the dog breed/owner look bad.

I have an American Bulldog and a Staffie and a child on the way and we will never leave them alone.

Accidents can and do happen and its irresponsible to put a child or a dog into a situation where they are alone.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Ste123 said:


> I wonder how many of the dog owners we hear about in the news whose dog attacked a child in a house thought their dog was well trained and would never hurt anybody before it happened.
> 
> Normally the response is "oh a dog loved that child and was do protective we just don't know what made it happen we're in shock"


I wanted to answer this - if you read the stories you will find that these "accidents" often occur when the child is at a grandparents house or another family member. Or actually out in the street.

The little girl who was savagely mauled to death by a "pit bull type" at christmass about 5 years ago was actually at her grannies house and the girls mother had been explicitly told NOT TO let the girl go anywhere near the dog and coincidentally the dog didnt belong to either the grandmother or the mother it was the little girls uncle.


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## emmilllyyy (Oct 9, 2010)

im 15 and we have a german shepherd, hes 11 now and weve been allowed to stay home with him for quite some time. he goes absolutely nuts at other dogs and tries to attack them due to him having a bad experience at the vets as a pup, (which i remember to this day cause it was so horrible!) he was good with other dogs before this. hes still mad like a puppy, youd never think he was 11 seeing him and the way he acts. he would never harm any person in my eyes, no issues atall :2thumb: ive never shared a photo of him before, so i thought id might aswell  (and yes i know dogs shouldnt have milk, it was just a treat!)


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Kare said:


> You seem to be heading off subject. We are talking on the subject of dogs and children being left alone together, not of dogs that will run across a park to eat a child.
> 
> I would be very concerned about leaving my dog unattended where children could come in and get to them uninvited, if a kid can get to them so can some adult stealing them as a bait dog. As I have said before however the only time our dogs are out of our sight is when they are SECURE within our own property and that includes all necessary measures to ensure no one can get access, barring them causing criminal damage.


Also a little off subject. Just to point out, I am currently in council-owned property, and they had ripped down my perfectly good fencing and replaced it, however the bolts they used weren't adapted to enable me to padlock the gate as usual. I had complained about this and requested that they come out and change it immediately, but I will not stop putting my dog in the garden after 2 years of doing so every day. She loves the garden and I know she's ok with children, I was just pointing out that even a dog not INTENTIONALLY left 'alone' with children, will still encounter children, and should be socialised as such.


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

I would never leave my dogs alone with young children. I will however nip into the next room and put the kettle on, then back to make a cuppa. My kids are all older, youngest is 15. Only young child is my grandaughter who is 2. It's not just down to how much you trust your dogs, how much you trust the child has to come into it, or the adult with the child. More often than not my dogs are shut away when I'm not there. That way I know if all else fails, my dogs are safe.


I have 3 rotties and a springer. My springer is as laid back as you can get. I was out one day and my son had his daughter at my house. He allowed her to crawl over to my springer who growled. I was surprised he did this as he is as laid back as you can get. My son gave him a row for it which I gave him a row for. He was warning her to stay back. IMO you should never remove the warning. If you do, the next step is a bite. The point I was getting at though was, I would never have expected him to do it. If I had been in he wouldn't have done it. But I would have stopped her from approaching him though. My son has been brought up around dogs so should have known better. He just got complacent for a second, that's all it takes though. Our dogs may act one way with us, doesn't guarantee they will be exactly the same way when we're not there. Any dog is only as good as the handler (or person telling them what to do at that moment). When my grandaughter is in, my 2 rottie bitches are put away. Not because they will bite but because they would knock her over. They are aware of my personal space but this doesn't transfer to others. 

On the other point that seems to keep cropping up. Some dogs can never be totally trusted but can be managed. I have a fear aggressive rott. He was badly beated for most of his first 2 years. I have had him 5 years and he still gets stressed at times. He is totally predictable though. His body language lets you know when he is stressed. It is my job to remove him from the situation so he doesn't feel the need to bite. Fear aggression is one thing you can never totally get rid off. Doesn't mean they should be pts though. I have done loads of training with him over the last 5 years. I expect lots from my dogs. They are all trained to a very high standard. They will all drop and stay on command. Well, one drops and crawls to my feet then stays :lol2:I could stop it but she's so funny I let her have her silly quirks. With some dogs though you can only train them so far. My abused rott went for me the first time I tried to brush him. He couldn't cope with being approached or touched. Now when he is getting his eyes checked at vets I tell him to watch me ie look up into my eyes or at my hand if I raise it. He will let them do anything until I release him. Then the vets gives him a treat. I do still watch his body language and the vets know if I tell them to, they have to step away. At one point he would bite me for touching his feet. He had to be muzzled and made to lie flat to get his nails clipped. Now I just make him lie flat. He isn't happy about it as he gets pain in his legs and feet. He still lets me do it though and only gets up when I release him.


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## L&M (Feb 8, 2011)

This seems to be a topic that gets everyone fired up. I took my great Dane to a big local park and lake on the lead. We were sitting on a bench (he had his bum on the bench and feet on the floor very comical) minding our own business. There were children running around and one came over to stroke him. Now the dog was 10 months old at the time and over 6ft standing on his legs but dopey. I had a tight hold on his collar and the mother of the child launched in to a a huge tirade about how iresponsible it was to take a dog tht size to a place with children. i reminded her he was ona lead ina park and perhaps she should consider the same with her children if she didnt want them near my dog.

Two weeks later we walked past a woman at the same park and she just started crying from ten feet away with fear. Needless to say after this we started walking earlier in the mornings to avoid people who have issues with dogs.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Whole different subject, but i can't really understand parents/grandparents telling me their child is scared of dogs. 

I only own two of the dogs in the world and yes by all means i can and will make 100% sure my dogs are not near your child, but the person you really need to be telling is a counsellor. 

Why do people think it is appropriate to allow their child to spend their whole lives in fear rather than work to fix the issue. 

I mean as much as every owner should control them. Even just thinking of well controlled, well behaved dogs on a foot long lead, there are many many places that child will be at fairly close quarters with a dog, at shopping parades waiting outside shops for example (I mean of course when one owner waits outside whilst the other is inside, not talking leaving your dog unattended outside a store, that is inappropriate) or walking around a busy market etc etc.


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## crazeemaz (Jun 25, 2008)

*Different people fear different things!*



Kare said:


> Whole different subject, but i can't really understand parents/grandparents telling me their child is scared of dogs.
> 
> I only own two of the dogs in the world and yes by all means i can and will make 100% sure my dogs are not near your child, but the person you really need to be telling is a counsellor.
> 
> ...


Different people fear different things - it doesn't mean they need to see a counsellor. I have snakes yet some people are irrationally scared of snakes. I am wary of all dogs as I was attacked by a German Shepherd when I did a paper round 30 + years ago. I am scared of wasps! 

I have a friend who has a son who has a lot of extremely severe allergies - one of them being fur and due to a lot of dog owners thinking it is acceptable for their unleashed dogs to jump up at people with them calling out "it's ok he doesn't bite" this poor child is terrified of dogs because he knows he could become seriously ill from a dog just touching him. 

I think all dogs should be well trained to not jump up at strangers and friends of mine have dogs so I know that this is possible even with very exuberant dogs.

Are you scared of anything?


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Kare said:


> Whole different subject, but i can't really understand parents/grandparents telling me their child is scared of dogs.
> 
> I only own two of the dogs in the world and yes by all means i can and will make 100% sure my dogs are not near your child, but the person you really need to be telling is a counsellor.


My neice was brought up with two cats but even so is terrified of everything living other than people. She has this inbuilt fear of even my mother in laws budgie that she grew up with her fathers chickens but to be fair they scare even me they will chase you down and peck at your hands which really bloody hurts!

This has made family get togethers very difficult over the years even the holiday we all took together when i was 19 weeks pregnant with my first daughter. She wouldn't be able to come to our cabin or out on walks with us.

I really feel sorry for her but her bubble really has made her a victim to the world.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

crazeemaz said:


> Different people fear different things - it doesn't mean they need to see a counsellor. I have snakes yet some *people are irrationally scared of snakes.* I am wary of all dogs as I was attacked by a German Shepherd when I did a paper round 30 + years ago. I am scared of wasps!
> 
> I have a friend who has a son who has a lot of extremely severe allergies - one of them being fur and due to a lot of dog owners thinking it is acceptable for their unleashed dogs to jump up at people with them calling out "it's ok he doesn't bite" this poor child is terrified of dogs because he knows he could become seriously ill from a dog just touching him.
> 
> ...


Its not irrational when you could be killed by one!! Cobras and vipers and sea snakes all carry some serious venom. Fear is evolutions way of keeping us safe.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

After reading through the majority, Im quite shocked over certain opinions/views (Although respectful i am off them ) im quite disgusted with them in my own way.


The amount of times ive accidentally stood on my dog because hes been wicking around my feet or when teaching heel ( which is still an on going problem ) he tends to get too close and i accidentally stand on him, he should of been put down 10 times over in that case because 9/10 times hes nipped my foot.

No dog what so ever should be encouraged to run in fear and hide when accidentally stood on or proded inthe face by some little child that should be taught better and to be respectful. Teaching that kind of before can bring on fear aggression and thats when the fight or flight reactions come in. Having worked with many fear agressive dogs i had some pretty near misses when it comes to bites for pushing the boundaries too much but a dog is'nt going to be able to tell your trying to help as it over run by fear.

I always remember i dog i worked with at the kennels who had so much fear aggression, he would throw himself at the bars to bite people, Everyone ( bar one personw ho was on holiday at the time ) wanted to have the dog put down because all they saw was agression, Within 3 days ( even tho he wasnt in my section ) i worked with him, had him coming up to the bars happy to see me, taking treats from my hands, given me paw, sitting and letting me stroke his head, Then came the time for him to go to rescue still everyone at the kennels wanted him put down for being untrustworthy but a suitable rescue was found ( who dealt with mainly aggressive dogs in rehabiltating them ), so then i was forced to get him out putting him under enough stress for a warning bark and mouthing my leg but as soon as i got him out of the kennels and into the yard it was a completely different dog. 

Hes now been rehomed with older children and is a soft as they come.


All this from a dog that was 7-8 month old only a baby and been either treated terribly or been allowed to do his own thing, What a waste of a life that would of been to have had him put down.

and this was a non "fighting" breed. 

Whenever a hear a dog attack in the media, i never once jump to the concolusion that its the dogs fault. Who here remembers the case of a Rottie in Wakefield "attacking and killing" a young boy called Archie, This happened not too far from me and i know more than what the media had led peopel to believe which led me to believe no fault was ont he dog but that of the parents but again this is a whole different debate. I always try to gather and reasearch as much as possible before seeing it for what it is. 

There are 2 Akitas just at the bottom of my road, they are never walked and live with young children, just beside them there is a Belgium Shepherd and Staffie again niether walk, It wont be long before i hear something has gone wrong in.

Last week i heard ont he radio of a boy ebing attacked by two dogs which are believed to be 2 staffies in Middleton Woods Leeds, after doing some digging around because i know people living in that area and with owners like what they had im not suprised it happened.


Ill stand by what i say, no dog is 100% trustworthy and it only takes a split second for something to happen and then it becomes the dogs fault. No child under the age of 16 should be left alone with a dog no matter what size or breed the intention to bite is the same for all. Im not scare mongering but if people have at least half a braincell they would see my view and take note, dont have to agree but at least share some common ground on the matter like i have seen in various post there are a lot who share the same view as mine.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> After reading through the majority, Im quite shocked over certain opinions/views (Although respectful i am off them ) im quite disgusted with them in my own way.
> 
> 
> The amount of times ive accidentally stood on my dog because hes been wicking around my feet or when teaching heel ( which is still an on going problem ) he tends to get too close and i accidentally stand on him, he should of been put down 10 times over in that case because 9/10 times hes nipped my foot.
> ...


I agree, an awful lot of these 'dog savages child' stories in the media are both extremely exagerrated and usually there are extenuating circumstances, child not being dog trained or irresponsible owners. I don't believe any dog is 'born bad' the same as I don't think people are either. They are a product of their environment.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

crazeemaz said:


> Are you scared of anything?


I had a fear of needles, more specifically blood tests, you know from the crook of the arm. When I was a teen my father had a heart attack and as he had no risk factors for it we all had to have blood tests for a familial link. I freaked and my size 22 sister had to hold me down. 

So I donated blood until I could deal with it. I still get scared just before it goes in, but I have donated pushing on 40 times since I was 18.

I also had a fear of fish, so I learnt to dive and have dived both the red sea and the barrier reef.

Saying someone should have counselling shouldn't be taken as offensive, simply as you would leave a child in pain with out seeking help to treat a cause you should not leave a child in fear with out seeking professional help. They simply cannot avoid dogs, there will be dogs sat outside their schools, dogs at friends houses, dogs sat outside shops, dogs at the park. Even if you think it is acceptable to ask every dog owner to avoid your child it is simply not practical. Even if you believe dogs have no rights to exercise and to be where your child is, don't forget there is a person attached to the other end of the lead who does have rights to use the streets or local amenities just as much as that child does.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree! If either of my children had had a fear of something I would have worked with them to overcome that, because most of these things cannot be avoided and why have a child spend it's life in fear of what it might meet.

A lot of the work Pets as Therapy animals do is working with people who have a phobia or fear of those animals.


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

I dont leave my child alone with any animal. The dogs because you just never know, it could be the nicest dog ever then snap for no reason. The other animals is because you dont know what the child could do to them.


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## Lucy1012 (Mar 21, 2011)

I breed large breed dog, so my daughters aged 8, 6 & 3 have grown up with dogs and no how to behave around them, but when it comes to the question in hand NEVER, if i leave the room i take the dogs with me.. I trust my dogs and I trust my kids, but at the end of the day i would feel horrific should an animal i brought into the family hurt my children.. however small the chances it just isn't worth the risk..


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Today I saw a kid who only looked about 5 walking her little dog around the feild where I walk my dog, completely by herself. Now even if they trust their dog not to attack and not to pull erc. I know how many offlead, big, bouncy dogs approach my dog. Some of them aren't even dog freindly. Not wise!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

We live in a circular cul-de-sac. in the corner just around from me there's a family with a boxer dog. The 2 daughters are only about 6 & 8 and they regularly have the dog out on the street down by my neighbour's house opposite me - the dog is loose and takes no notice of them whatsoever when they call it. 

Of course the father walks it on the field at the back of his house and is never anywhere near, or even looking at it, so he cares a lot - NOT!!!

The field is halved by a footpath which joins 2 housing estates and there is a sparse row of 4 trees alongside the path but about 20feet away from it. I was on the far side from his house of these trees and I saw the dog first crossing the footpath towards us, so put Skye straight on his leash and watched.

The dog ran towards us and Skye started barking, so I calmed him down and shut him up while watching the dog and the guy. The guy was on his mobile phone and took no notice of the dog at all. He was too busy texting! :bash: He crossed the footpath, walked to the trees, turned around and headed home leaving the dog halfway between the trees and us. he never called the dog, he never even looked at the dog, he just started to walk back home.

The dog stood watching us for a while, walked down towards the edge of the field by someone's back fence, dropped a very large sh*t and then toddled off after its owner! Now that's responsible ownership, because that man wasn't even watching his dog, let alone controlling it.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

feorag said:


> Of course the father walks it on the field at the back of his house and is never anywhere near, or even looking at it, so he cares a lot - NOT!!!
> 
> The field is halved by a footpath which joins 2 housing estates and there is a sparse row of 4 trees alongside the path but about 20feet away from it. I was on the far side from his house of these trees and I saw the dog first crossing the footpath towards us, so put Skye straight on his leash and watched.
> 
> ...


I hate people like that :bash:
Walking Oz through the park a few weeks back, she was still on lead until we got to the park, and the bushes started rustling. Now it was early morning so Ozzy's ears perked right up, then this massive Labrador bounded out and snarled at us. Oz snarled back, and then this guy walks by reading the paper, shouted "Oi come 'ere" and carried on going. Never once looked at us or apologised for having what I'd call an uncontrolled dog. In fact I don't think he even knew we were there! 
Hate to imagine what would have happened if mine was off lead as well.


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## Tricky&TheFox (Nov 30, 2008)

i have a staff and she is brilliant with children. We got her as a puppy (think she was around 6 weeks, very tiny) and my little boy was around a year old. They are like two partners in crime! At first as she grew she would knock him over occasionally (spacially unaware) but she has NEVER jumped up at him - she's a heavy girl and when she does jump it's like someone throwing a sack of potatoes at you! 

They always play beautifully and he will throw the ball for her and call her back and tell her to drop and sit, it's very sweet to see them (he's 3 and she's 2). He adores cuddling her but even so, he is a very active, full on child...They are left alone while I'm in another room, or nip to the loo etc. I wouldn't leave her with anyone else's young children, just because they wouldn't be her family and she may not be quite as tolerant. She knows at all times that she's the bottom of the pecking order here - although by NO means does this mean that my son is allowed to mistreat her in any way - she has given a low growl before, she was sent to bed and he was pulled up on it.. he now understands that if she growls or barks she is unhappy and he must leave her alone.

As a child, I got my first dog, a JRT, when I was 4. I remember taking him out with me when I was about 6 to play with my friends on our street. He was very much 'my' dog and as i got to 8-9 we used to go all over and be out all day with our friends. I think i was about 8, a collie type dog came from nowhere bounding over to us and my little dog immediately began to protect me - he was very protective, the other dog began fighting with him and i remember going in hands first to split them up! I was bitten by both dogs but it never occurred to me that either should actually be put down.

I've been bitten since but my first reaction is never 'it should be PTS' usually there is a reason for the behaviour.


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

iona_gecko said:


> i have a staff and she is brilliant with children. We got her as a puppy (think she was around 6 weeks, very tiny) and my little boy was around a year old. They are like two partners in crime! At first as she grew she would knock him over occasionally (spacially unaware) but she has NEVER jumped up at him - she's a heavy girl and when she does jump it's like someone throwing a sack of potatoes at you!
> 
> They always play beautifully and he will throw the ball for her and call her back and tell her to drop and sit, it's very sweet to see them (he's 3 and she's 2). He adores cuddling her but even so, he is a very active, full on child...They are left alone while I'm in another room, or nip to the loo etc. I wouldn't leave her with anyone else's young children, just because they wouldn't be her family and she may not be quite as tolerant. She knows at all times that she's the bottom of the pecking order here - although by NO means does this mean that my son is allowed to mistreat her in any way - she has given a low growl before, she was sent to bed and he was pulled up on it.. he now understands that if she growls or barks she is unhappy and he must leave her alone.
> 
> ...


i have been bitten for the same reason, though i think euthanising dogs that will 'go for' other dogs is very different to a dog that 'goes for' human beings. 

many dogs will have a little scrap with another dog at some point, in my experience this doesnt usually involve teeth, simply the dogs letting each other who is boss. 

this behaviour is very instincitive but is a sign that a dog may challenge its owners authority at some point, which can be in many ways, not just agression. 

thus a dog that displays agressive behaviour to other dogs requires more training. 

a dog that outright attacks human beings, unprovoked, should be put down imo. 

a dog that attacks to defend is something that seriously needs to be considered also. a dog can misenterpret human behaviour and may end up showing agression to somebody new that may be entering your personal space like an old friend etc. this i have seen for myself in a very 'friendly' dog and such behaviour should be nipped in the bud as soon as possible.


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## Tricky&TheFox (Nov 30, 2008)

strange you should mention that, last week a friend came around and the door was open, i called for him to come through and immediately Bonnie began growling and snarling - I hadn't realised before that nobody has ever entered our house without one of us actually greeting them at the door! i called her to heel and she came and sat by me - obviously still very protective - and i sat with her, talked to her and calmed her down, she did not bite or jump up but her growl was very menacing indeed (I've never heard her sound so threatening or behave this way) luckily my friend has experience training dogs and understood what was happening, once she was assured he was a good friend she was perfectly okay and fussed him.

strange as she is 100% with strangers coming to the door and the post man, take away people, always get fussed by her.

i must inspire a protective instinct in my pets! On the whole i was surprised by her but at the same time understood her misunderstanding.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

iona_gecko said:


> strange you should mention that, last week a friend came around and the door was open, i called for him to come through and immediately Bonnie began growling and snarling - I hadn't realised before that nobody has ever entered our house without one of us actually greeting them at the door! i called her to heel and she came and sat by me - obviously still very protective - and i sat with her, talked to her and calmed her down, she did not bite or jump up but her growl was very menacing indeed (I've never heard her sound so threatening or behave this way) luckily my friend has experience training dogs and understood what was happening, once she was assured he was a good friend she was perfectly okay and fussed him.
> 
> strange as she is 100% with strangers coming to the door and the post man, take away people, always get fussed by her.
> 
> i must inspire a protective instinct in my pets! On the whole i was surprised by her but at the same time understood her misunderstanding.


my dogs are the same, anybody can walk in te door as long as somone from the family opened it, 
if somone even family walk in with out being let in by us the dogs go mad and have to be shut in my room cause i know they would bite the person that walked in


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## lovemysnakes (Apr 17, 2011)

i think it depends on what you want from a dog. some people like dogs for protection like a house alarm lol. 
at many of the stables i use the dogs are massively agressive to people they dont recognise, i wouldnt suggest anyone go onto the site without a known member out of hours. 
the dogs run the area of the site and the fields to check on the horses as previously there has been thefts. since the dogs were bought in no thefts have taken place. 

but my dog isnt a working dog and purely is there as a companion, anyone could walk into my house and the dog wouldnt care less. he will sometimes say hello but most the time he just has a peak and then goes back to what he was doing lol. 

this makes me feel comfortable and is what i like from my dog. i want little children to knock at my door at haloween and feel welcome and not be scared off by a dog. most people dont think i have a dog when they first come in my home because hes so quiet lol. 

he barks about 3 times a year lol. the only person he makes a fuss over is the post man and thats because the post man always plays with him lol. 

however the dog is very agressive towards foxes since he caught one trying to get at the rabbits lol. 

we are getting another dog soon and it will be the first dog in years and years that isnt a rescue. so we can make the perfect dog  the first few years are the building block for a dogs temprement so its a great challange


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

My dog (a German Shepherd) barks when someone knocks, and will not stop if told to quiet or anything, I find this useful for getting unwanted people at the door to leave, but she will stop the second you say the correct words. 

However, if you do not knock she does not bark!

We use to work on a holiday home estate, basically a field full of lodges and at least every month or so someone would walk in to our house thinking it was the reception. I guess them entering with a clear conscience would help.

Little girl over the road use to just run into our home, she enjoyed swimming in the parks pool and I had lots of pool toys brought for the only time my niece visited there. The two groundskeepers also use to walk in unannounced, anyone who wished to see me for much of the time I was there never knocked, I spent 9 months on and off crutches having my knee operated on so I appreciated not being made to get up alot. 

Not one was announced with barking...or any noise, except those she liked getting greeted with a tail wagging if the tail knocked against something lol


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