# Toad has a 'broken' tongue ??



## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

I've had this guy/gal since it was a taddy, just a common toad (bufo bufo) and s/he was the first one to 'shoot up' in size...was double the others for a while, then was overtaken. 
I moved them from a small tank to a much bigger tank so couldn't guage who ate what but had noticed before the changeover this particular toad ('Big guy' as my little bro calls it) didn't seem to be able to eat properly, but s/he stayed a decent size throughout their 'hibernation' and is still the 2nd biggest i've got. (I moved them all back inside last week as a few of the smaller ones had died in the garage)
Now I can watch B.G much more closely, s/he definitely has a problem eating. It's as if his/her tongue just won't come out !?!
I've tried feeding allsorts, and he/she goes for anything that moves, but never manages to catch anything, to a point where it gets frustrated and dives at the food but still doesn't get a meal.

It's still very active (especially when theres moving food around) but I don't know what else I can try...I've held food with forceps right infront of its mouth and it still can't feed !!!

Here's a pic, not a very good one coz the lights were out so I had to hold a torch and take a pic at the same time LOL but as U can see it isn't too skinny...YET !










Any ideas ??


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

there are no bones in a frog/toads tongue so it wont be broken, but it could have been damaged lunging for food. the only way to be sure is to take it to a vet.
you could try holding the food in front of its mouth and when it lunges, time it so you slip the food into its jaws, but not all the way into its mouth, you dont want to risk the toad damaging the inside of its mouth.


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

I've tried allsorts lately. Rubbing food on its lips, seperating it in a cricket tub so food is easier to get (Stressed it out unless I left the tub in the tank), also tried holding it in my hand and trying to entice it to eat but it got stressed. Thought i'd cracked it when it kept opening its mouth after being held in my hand (Because of being stressed I assume) but every time I placed the worm across its lips it'd spit it out.
It's stressing me out knowing its hungry as its always alert and going for food, but can never catch any 

Picking up a 2.0 Repti Glo bulb tomorrow (Tank currently has an aqua-glo as its a fishtank) and adding calcium supplement to the tank water. Also got some Repton the other day (Never used vit supplements be4 as all my reading said make sure you dust feeder foods with calcium!! GRRR)

I saw some stuff the other day online for sick reptiles,t-rex bone aid cricket flavoured calcium drops & also something for sick non-eating reps that has vitamins etc in it (Can't remember the name) but dunno if either would help (or be suitable for a toad) , or if indeed the toad would keep it down if I did manage to get some in its mouth.

It's got a bit of a lopsided walk which would indicate signs of MBD I think but would MBD affect it being able to sucessfully catch food / flick its tongue. ?

It's only about an inch which makes any kind of force-feeding attempt risky and hard to attempt. Also makes your suggestion pliskens pretty hard to do as being small it's near impossible to get food close while its lunging for another piece of food.


Any more suggestions anyone ??


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Hiya Red,

MBD certainly comes associated/part and parcel with muscular problems, calcium is essential to healthy nervous system function and muscle function (amongst many other woes...)

A wonky walk and inability to feed properly suggest this Bufo has bigger problems than may seem obvious.

At this point all I can suggest is a trip to a vet who is able to X-ray and ascertain the extent of the damage and if the animal is likely to recover or live any quality of life.
Obviously a UV tube will improve his situation if you don't have one already 

Lotte***


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## 7109 (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi guys from what i can see in mr toad there he has bent legs from what i can see and most of us know that can be MBD Metabolic bone disease. if im right he needs his food dusting more mate and it may perk his hunting game up if introduced slowly if he hasnt had it before. let me know what you think pm if u need anymore help mate. Garden toads are my fave amphib Cus theyre ours :whip: :lol2:


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## Amyboo (Nov 11, 2007)

what is it your trying to feed him?

this summer we came across our resident adult Toad and tried feeding him mealworms and waxworms but he couldnt catch it, dunno if its the same problem that yours seems to have, try larger foods, most common toads eat slugs and snails, have you tried feeding any of those?

beware tho of pesticides, dunno how easy they are to breed.

if the toad is interested in food at least you know if it manages to catch anything it will eat, better that way than not interested in food at all!


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> I've tried allsorts lately. Rubbing food on its lips, seperating it in a cricket tub so food is easier to get (Stressed it out unless I left the tub in the tank), also tried holding it in my hand and trying to entice it to eat but it got stressed. Thought i'd cracked it when it kept opening its mouth after being held in my hand (Because of being stressed I assume) but every time I placed the worm across its lips it'd spit it out.
> It's stressing me out knowing its hungry as its always alert and going for food, but can never catch any
> 
> Picking up a 2.0 Repti Glo bulb tomorrow (Tank currently has an aqua-glo as its a fishtank) and adding calcium supplement to the tank water. Also got some Repton the other day (Never used vit supplements be4 as all my reading said make sure you dust feeder foods with calcium!! GRRR)
> ...


MBD does sound like the cause of this guys problems.
yes dusting with calcium is essential but you should have been told that you need vitamin D3 inorder for the toads body to utilise the calcium, or at the very least a UV light.
i would hold off on the feeding for a while.
or if feeding refrigerate any live foods for a while so they cool off and slow down (not enough to kill them though). You need to stabilise the other problems occuring with the toad otherwise he really isnt going to eat at all.
the lopsided walk indicates the bones have become slightly softend by MBD, and the muscles contracting are starting to deform them.
when your toad does the mouth gaping action either to shed or yawn, you can try and syringe (you can get child oral syringes from the chemist), a paste of vitamin powder,calcium and crushed live food that has been slightly watered down into his mouth. aim the syringe slightly upwards when pointing it into the mouth so some, at least, will indirectly be swallowed.
adding calcium powder to its water will not help im afraid, but you can get a supplement to add to water that is electrolite and vitamin rich...... cant remember what its called though, maybe somebody here will know what its called.
the only other port of call you have after that advice im afraid is the vet.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Sorry I did my classic slackertrick with your original PM, read it and thought "ah must come back to this when I get home from work..." sorry Red :blush:

Anyhoo, I realised I'd missed your mention of UV in your update post.
A 2.0 will not be enough to help him if MBD is the issue, I can't stress enough that a vet visit is needed to make sure and to assess the level of the problem. An X-ray will reveal his current bone density, any fractures and the extent of damage already done, if, as it seems this is MBD.
A vet will be able to administer calcium gluconate injections which will help stabilise him immediately, as will the use of a good UV tube such as a reptisun 10%. 

Unseen damage is why I harp on about UV all day long and no one yet believes it is necessary unfortunately...
The mechanism which allows a frog or toads tongue to function is based on a muscular contractions which make the tongue rigid to propel it over the hyoid bone like a catapult.

Muscles are anchored on bones and proper muscle function depends on good calcium levels in the body.
If bones are weakened or malformed (as the amphibian jaw is particularly prone to in MBD) the muscles that are supported by them just can't work properly. Therein lies how MBD can cause loss of tongue function 


Certainly if there is a chance of MBD, forcefeeding right now is out of the question, a broken or bent jaw is pretty unfixable.
Best of luck with him,
Lotte***


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

7109 said:


> if im right he needs his food dusting more


Their food was dusted every other day from being toadlets.

Only dusted with calcium but they were outside so presumably got natural uvb



Amyboo said:


> what is it your trying to feed him?


Tried black crix, brown crix, mealies, baby locusts & waxies

I've had 'him' since he was a taddy and they were all brought up on fruit flies, crix & mini mealies.
The food isn't too fast for him, well ok maybe a spooked cricket is, but mealies are fine but he just can't catch 'em with his tongue. He hasn't learnt to grab with his lips like my one-eyed 'gannet' frog does. 




Pliskens_Chains said:


> adding calcium powder to its water will not help im afraid, but you can get a supplement to add to water that is electrolite and vitamin rich


It's Exo-terra's Calcimize drinking water conditioner that i've got. It;
Removes Chlorine & Chloramine 
Neutralizes heavy metals 
Replenishes Calcium levels 
Prevents hypocalcaemia 

Electrod3ize is the Electrolyte & Vitamin D3 Supplement exo-terra do. It;
Restores and maintains electrolyte levels 
Prevents or reverses metabolic bone disease 
Helps in re-hydrating stressed animals 
Stimulates appetite, activity and normal behavior 
Strengthens the immune system 


This particular toad doesn't go in the water much so would I be right in thinking if i mix up a batch, spray the tank (and maybe drop some on 'him' from a pipette) it would be the way to go ??
I'll see if I can source some Electrod3ize tomorrow if it would help!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

REDDEV1L said:


> Got one coming. The delivery was late at my local petshop so i'm picking it up tomorrow. Only a 2.0 repti-glo but the 5.0's are rated for tropical/sub-tropical so thought would be too strong...sub-arctic is more like it up here!! lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
A Vet really is essential if you don't want to watch him deteriorate slowly


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Bugger, so I've probably ordered a bulb thats no good 
Would a 10 not be far too strong ?? I read-up on them day before last before going to buy/order and it said that a 10 is for desert dwellers, 5 for tropical/sub-tropical and 2 for everything else.

There are 7 other toads in the same tank so would I be best seperating him if he needs strong light and use the 2.0 i'm now committed to for the others ?

There doesn't appear to be any deformity of his jaws, but like you said there's alot more going on inside than out

I can tell now moreso that its having an effect on him as his head seems a bit too big for his body. I've had a few toads die recently, all of whom never grew more than 50% from toadlets, so the last thing I want to do is sit back and watch this one die too 

These guys seem so much more delicate than my frog (We got him end of Aug and he was about the size of a baked bean, he's now over 1.5" and eats anything I put infront of him, despite only having one eye) which seems the wrong way round as toads look stocky and hardy compared to frogs, but I suppose the figures speak for themselves, ie common toads being in decline whereas common frogs aren't doing as bad


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

REDDEV1L said:


> Bugger, so I've probably ordered a bulb thats no good
> Would a 10 not be far too strong ?? I read-up on them day before last before going to buy/order and it said that a 10 is for desert dwellers, 5 for tropical/sub-tropical and 2 for everything else.
> 
> There are 7 other toads in the same tank so would I be best seperating him if he needs strong light and use the 2.0 i'm now committed to for the others ?


You can always keep the 2.0 for use normally, a 10% would be a therapeutic level for an animal that needs support to recover from MBD.
You'd be suprised at how low the output of most of these tubes really is at the level that most people might use it and without reflectors...

Provided your bufo have plenty of places to hide it will do them no harm and only good 
Lotte***

P.S: we raised a few hundred_ Bufo bufo_ and several thousand _Rana dalmatina_ from spawn in 2008 under 5% tubes.


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

There's two small cave hides and a big 'sheet' of moss in there for hides.
Three of the more active ones 'live' by the 'pond' the biggest of the lot has a hide to himself and the 3 smaller ones & the one this whole thread is about, hide under the moss.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

REDDEV1L said:


> There's two small cave hides and a big 'sheet' of moss in there for hides.
> Three of the more active ones 'live' by the 'pond' the biggest of the lot has a hide to himself and the 3 smaller ones & the one this whole thread is about, hide under the moss.


They'd benefit from having lower hides to squeeze under, pieces of slightly curved bark laid all over the place and some overlapping to create elevated dry hides would be best 










:2thumb:
Lotte***


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

okeydoke i'll work on that too.
This is the problem with keeping native species...there's no info on the net on how to look after em properly !!!

They were originally outside and will return there once they're bigger & OK so I've got plenty time to sort their big 4ft tank out too which will have to be re-done anyway as some plants have died and the coco has gone mouldy in some places since I vacated the toads. Have to employ the help of some, erm, woddyacallems...<checks lotte's livefood guides> springtails !! lol


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey i'm just wondering if your toad ever got its tongue ability back? Mine little one has now developed such problems very similar to yours


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

I've never seen him eat anything, although i've tempted him with crickets and he's not interested, but was curious and went for the mealworm but no luck catching it with his tongue.

I made some liquid formula out of Vitamin and Calcium Dust with springwater and attempted to give him some, managed to get some down him but couldn't bring myself to do what the vets do and force his mouth open for meds. I've done this about 4 or 5 times since this thread but not sure if he's getting much from it.

However spur of the moment yesterday he pooped in the waterdish when I gave him a 'bath' to clean him up a bit so decided to check his 'sample' out...apart from finding bad news, Nematodes !!!! There was was appeared to be a cricket leg in there so i'm hopeful he's managed to grab something.

Although he sometimes looks thin, he's still got energy, he was wandering up my arm yesterday and always runs for the hide if I move it to check on him.

I weighed him 2 weeks ago and he was 2.5g, and yet I weighed another one whose about the same size but looked much fatter and it was 2.6g.


May have to bite the bullet and get him into a vet tho, think ill weigh him tomorrow and see what that tells me.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Its really weird a week and a half ago it was eating every night and was so active. I changed his tank set up and made it look nicer and ever since then it hasn't touched a thing. It doesn't move much either unless provoked, seems to sit under the moss all day every day.
I tried feeding it again today and it would look at the crickets but then make a hiccup motion and its mouth would open slightly, it did this a few times and then opened its mouth alot its tongue came out maybe half way but looked pale and seemed wonky then it just went back into its mouth. I tried putting food by its mouth with tweezers and it just turned away. 

I dusted crickets with calcium+d3 for it for a week then the week after didnt dust any. It was eating about 6 or so ant sized crickets every night. I would sit and watch her sneak around the tank after them but now I don't see it active at all.

I've checked her over and she can hop and walk perfectly she seems healthy. 

Should i get a UV 10% lamp like suggested, they are £30 for the bulb and £10 for the lamp case, i dont want to get it and it be useless...


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

andaroo said:


> make a hiccup motion and its mouth would open slightly, it did this a few times


Unfortunately that sounds exactly like what mine does. 

As for the UV, I'm not totally sure tbh. I've got a 10% on in my tank but the sick one used to hide away under the bark all the time anyway so never saw any of the benefits (My lightest coloured toad seems to 'bask' at a high point in the tank ontop of a piece of bark whereas all the darker coloured ones hide). 
I decided to move the 4 small toads, and him, into an xl flat faunarium that was bare apart from substrate, a couple of hides and water bowl, so I could keep an eye on them properly and give them plenty of appropriately sized food that the other healthier toads wouldn't steal...The day after I moved them, my two smallest toads died  so i'm regretting moving them, but also the faun doesn't have a light above it, so i'm either going to have to put them back in the main tank (more stress for them) or rig up some lighting using the 10% and put the 2% in the main tank.

Found out today that my healthy looking frog appears to be infested with nematode worms (aswell as my sick toad) so i've been researching and asking ppl about cures etc tonight.


And all the while i've got my little brother pestering me every day to move the fish to a smaller tank (as they're always hiding in the corner), move my frog to their big tank and buy a pacman !!


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

so your little toad has worms? the thought had crossed my mind too, hmm... would it get them from a bad batch of crickets?


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm thinking of giving it a drop of levacol to deworm it. It's execretions in the water i had it in looked weird the other day, all muscus like with black bits in. Also try that 10% UV lamp.

My toad has to reach adult size and live I have to try everything!


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Yup supposedly crickets can pass them on, although my lot probably got them from the lake when they were tadpoles. The lake where I got them from isn't the cleanest in terms of parasites etc. (Some of my fish were infected with nasty diseases which eventually killed them and they're from the same place)

Reading around forums you see mentions of fecal samples and the effects of worms so its been on my mind for a while to check the little guy out but with having more than one in a tank it was near impossible to get a sample that was specific to one toad which is why when I saw his that was definitely his as i'd just cleaned the water bowl and he was the only one near it, I had to check it out.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

im letting mine soak in spring water for an hour in hopes that it will do it good


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

I sent a pm to pollywog earlier asking if he knew whether levacol was safe for bufo bufo / rana temporaria as the only place i've seen it mentioned or for sale was on dart frog sites.
Although what did put me off is reading the horror stories of frogs dying after treatment possibly due to the mass-death of parasites leading to toxic shock/poisoning....didn't sound too good

Some ppl reccommend panacur for starters to slowly thin the parasites down but if it isn't eating, its no good as panacur is a dusting powder


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

REDDEV1L said:


> I sent a pm to pollywog earlier asking if he knew whether levacol was safe for bufo bufo / rana temporaria as the only place i've seen it mentioned or for sale was on dart frog sites.
> Although what did put me off is reading the horror stories of frogs dying after treatment possibly due to the mass-death of parasites leading to toxic shock/poisoning....didn't sound too good
> 
> Some ppl reccommend panacur for starters to slowly thin the parasites down but if it isn't eating, its no good as panacur is a dusting powder


well as soon as u find out let will u please let me know:help:


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Yup certainly will


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Here's a pic of its poo from the other day (lol i know i took pics of its shit but i need to make sure it's ok)











it just pooped in the container of water infront of me. It's a dropping were as the last time it was all runny and snot like now it looks like and is the same colouring of a bogie lol with dark spots in it.

A pic: 










Normally its a dark brown pellet...


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

Sometimes some of mine do runny ones but most of the time its the dark brown pellet. (One of the frogs was red...I put it down to the worm it had 2 days earlier but now im not so sure)
Unless you've got a microscope I don't think theres a reliable way of seing if its got worms. Unless you mush it around in a small amount of water, then use a cotton bud to smear some on a piece of glass or clear plastic, then look at it very close-up (Magnifying glass would be handy) in good light you MAY be able to see tiny specs moving but if I didn't know they were there from looking under the microscope I probably wouldn't have noticed them.

Pic I took through the eyepiece earlier


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