# Critically Endangered Tarantulas



## durbans (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi there,

Does anybody know of somewhere I could find a list of which T's are on the IUCN Red List or just a general list of what status has been applied to certain species? I am getting quite interested in the whole captive bed vs wild caught idea and just trying to find out more really.

It would also be interesting to know what keepers on RFUK think about the availability of WC tarantulas and the pros/cons of breeding endangered species. For instance, is it ok to buy & breed a WC endangered tarantula or should this be left to nature as UK breeders are handly going to go and release the resulting slings back into their native habitat. Should WC specimens even be legally sold in the UK? Is there any form of regulation in place for this and if not should there be?! 

There is a lot of room in the tarantula hobby for morals and ethics (and I'm not saying people don't have them!) given the nature of our beloved inverts, the thousands of different species and the stigma associated with them - particularly in their natural habitat where locals will sometimes kill any specimens found (which would provide an argument for the captive breeding of wild caught tarantulas)

Also, on the flipside of this, do people even look to see if the tarantula they are about to buy is WC or CB? 

I am aware this could turn into a potentially sensitive thread so please respect people's opinions and let's have a discussion not an argument!! Each opinion is valid, even if it appears like utter madness to you!

Thanks for reading and (hopefully) giving your input.

David


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

Just searching the IUCN Red List for species would be your best bet.

http://www.iucnredlist.org

Just search "Theraphosidae"


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## durbans (Sep 16, 2009)

*facepalm* Cheers for that, probably should've just googled IUCN!

Only 15 Theraphosidae species on the list?! I must say I'm surprised!


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Captive Bred Vs Wild Caught . Hmmmm .

I'm kind of on the fence on this one . For a pet It'd have to be CB if possible but if I was considering breeding I'd have to consider a WC specimen especially if it's an uncommon one in the hobby . 

I don't like the idea of people taking animals out the wild in a seemingly wholesale fashion for profit but at the same time I'd like to see a trickle of fresh blood into breeding projects .


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

I actually do check if I'm buying WC or CB usually, however I usually buy slings so it's mostly CB.

To add to that http://www.iucnredlist.org/

There's a search function, search Theraphisidae and then using the options on the left hand side refine yours search (Assessment> Red List categories> Unckeck the ones you aren't including, like Least concern etc.).


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I would agree.. for the 'pet' trade, CB is always No1.. however I do think that hobbyists can contribute more to replenishing wild numbers. It is just being able to do that is the problem (ie logistics)


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

The problem with releasing CB T's is you've got to be sure what you're releasing . There's not much point in releasing hybrids into the wild . Yes I do know you can supposedly find hybrids in the wild but there's no real point in introducing more . You're more likely to lose a species in the wild if you introduce hybrids than save the same species by doing so .


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

durbans said:


> Only 15 Theraphosidae species on the list?! I must say I'm surprised!


The actual number of endangered tarantulas will be far greater than 15 unfortunately. The 15 on the list are the only ones that have had the required research carried out to establish their position on the list. It's also worth bearing in mind that there are also undescribed species that are also believed to be critically endangered (first one that springs to mind is Aphonopelma sp. New River). Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware a species has to be described before it can be protected!


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## durbans (Sep 16, 2009)

Good points made Mutley & Leviathan, although it can be quite hard to distinguish between being a pet owner and being a hobbyist. I guess the 2 can co-exist, you may have a lovely pet T and then a breeding project going on the side!

Edit: Good point about hybrids! Does anyone know if people have actually captive bred and then attempted to release into the wild? I have no idea if it's ever been done with tarantulas.

Craig - I thought as much, 15 seemed like far too low a number, I know that the Brachypelma genus although high in CB numbers is generally dwindling in the wild. Maybe more effort needs to be diverted from breeding into identification of new species. I am just worried that when I'm 64 (to quote a classic Beatles track) there will be tarantulas which are available captive bred but no longer exist in their wild form!

There are definate benefits to breeding WC T's in that we can learn more about the invert, specifically why they may be declining in numbers in the wild and obviously enhancing awareness of the species. But is wild obvservation of tarantula's just as beneficial or is there added value in actually capturing and keeping it?

Interesting stuff....


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Craig Mackay said:


> The actual number of endangered tarantulas will be far greater than 15 unfortunately. The 15 on the list are the only ones that have had the required research carried out to establish their position on the list. It's also worth bearing in mind that there are also undescribed species that are also believed to be critically endangered (first one that springs to mind is Aphonopelma sp. New River). Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware a species has to be described before it can be protected!


This. That doesn't mean there's only 8 endangered species (if you look carefully some of them are least concern: LC). Tarantulas are cryptic species, due to their life-styles it's hard to get accurate population data on them. Without that it's very difficult to add it to the red list, even as LC. Most all Ts will be classed as DD: data deficient.

I was going to say more earlier, alas I was cooking at the same time.

There's also more needs to be said about releasing captive bred stock into the wild. Firstly, not everyone agrees with it, and there are definitely arguments against it as an idea. Some say hobby stock may be detrimental to the wild population. I know someone here before has opined that it would be better to let a species go extinct in the wild than release hobby material. And I expect, though I don't remember the reasons, that it wasn't entirely unjustified.

Releasing hobby stock, bred for generations away from the selection pressures of the wild, could actually make the species less fit. However adding CB individuals to the wild could boost the adult breeding population and resulting size of the next generation, hopefully offsetting at least any damage to the population.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Hedgewitch said:


> I actually do check if I'm buying WC or CB usually, however I usually buy slings so it's mostly CB.
> 
> To add to that http://www.iucnredlist.org/
> 
> There's a search function, search Theraphisidae and then using the options on the left hand side refine yours search (Assessment> Red List categories> Unckeck the ones you aren't including, like Least concern etc.).


 
cant get on this link anyone else having issues ???


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

durbans said:


> I am just worried that when I'm 64 (to quote a classic Beatles track) there will be tarantulas which are available captive bred but no longer exist in their wild form!


Unfortunately, I think this may already be the case. I was told that Yamia sp. Koh Samui are likely extinct in the wild now.



Hedgewitch said:


> Releasing hobby stock, bred for generations away from the selection pressures of the wild, could actually make the species less fit. However adding CB individuals to the wild could boost the adult breeding population and resulting size of the next generation, hopefully offsetting at least any damage to the population.


For a lot of species most of the damage to populations seems to come from habitat destruction rather than low population densities. As a result, for some species releasing captive bred stock (unlikely to happen) would more than likely be futile.


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## TerrynTula (Sep 5, 2010)

Dr3d said:


> cant get on this link anyone else having issues ???


Getting on no probs this end mate?


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

What I do when I encounter something unusual on a stocklist is research it, if it isn't LC I won't buy it, unless it can be proved it hasn't been WC(obviously a lot is). Even if it is LC I'll try and find out about any threats, pet trade obviously, since the IUCN can be rather outdated for some species.

Speaking of which and unrelated, anyone know if the common Otter is going to be removed from Appendix ll? News this week reporting their population has exploded and can now be found all across the country bar Kent.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

TerrynTula said:


> Getting on no probs this end mate?


yup got it, thanks fella


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I'd be very surprised if you found even one instance of reintroduction of tarantula into the wild. The arguments are too strong against doing so, but include a possible inbalance of predator against prey and the introduction of non-native species such as mites, nematodes and bacteria.

A few years back the BTS tried to set up a sanctuary to protect pokies, even that failed with plenty of accusation flung into the air.

Unfortunately for many species their natural habitats are being eroded, as an example the forests of Ghana are reduced to a mere 15% of the forests that existed 100 years ago. Many arboreal spiders are found in damaged or decaying wood, this wood is considered fair crop for fire wood in parts of India and Sri Lanka so the natural habitat is at best made way for new trees which don't provide the same food source or protection. 
The threat to such habitats exists throughout the world and most of us actively support it in various ways - check out the McDonalds, Nestle, Cadbury, Palm tree oil arguments and ask yourself if you're contributing to it.

I think there's a need to source a certain amount of WC, and there's certainly a demand, but as a species becomes ever more rare the liklihood of reintroducing it becomes rarer. Who here would breed P. metallica to reintroduce to the wild? One thing I do notice about WC is they're often gravid, what do we think that does for the wild population?

If our wild stock continues to deplete, surely our CB stock needs to increase. But, as Ive argued many times, if we're not responsible enough to ensure correct ID of our CB stock then maintaining true species is at a loss for many.

I'm not sure I agree with the statement releasing hobby stock that has been removed from the wild over generations is entirely accurate. I'm not sure if this would make the species susceptible to ailments over what potentially is a short space of time - we haven't been breeding tarantula for that long, and when we consider some species live for over 25 years the generation argument gets put into a better perspective.

There are some other factors worth throwing into this melting pot. With more WC spiders being introduced do we increase the risk of inviting parasites into our collections? Should we encourage captive bred farms at the native country? Do we really need to introduce new blood from the wild, what benefit would that have?

My view is that I try to avoid WC and I try to support CB.


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## herpzane (Apr 1, 2008)

Yh look at how many pokies are on there good god!..........I never realised just how endangered they are!.......Lots of deforestation in asia then


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Wildlife is simply going to keep declining unless someone can think of a way to decrease human populations by about 70% without any ethical implications...:whistling2:

Soooo, with that in mind, in the next 20-50 years I'd expect to see 50% or more of tarantula species in the hobby go extinct in the wild. Less than 5% of the surface of earth is unmodified in some way, and about 1% is protected. Too bad we can't save all the arachnids and let other groups take the heat (although those in favour of other groups are probably saying the same about arachnids, lol). 

Sadly, research is still focused on understanding this pristine habitat (<5%) even though it seems unlikely any more than 1% will be protected (and for how long?). More sense to me is to study "degraded" habitats to see what we can do to boost biodiversity in these areas so that we minimise what is lost. Especially since degraded habitat is already the dominant land form and will continue to grow as human populations grow. It doesn't seem that impossible to design cities etc around wildlife areas - it benefits humans to have access to "green space" and it benefits the animals too. The research might just be too late for some (majority?) species. You can't expect regions like Asia/ South America to simply protect everything when they look to Europe and see we've modified almost 95% or more of our land, not always for the better. We drive much of the loss of land in the first place (anyone play guitar and buy mahogany? I do - guess which rainforest it came from). 

I think if the time arrives to consider using hobby material, there simply won't be the habitats left to release most of them to in the first place.


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## TCBT (Jul 11, 2010)

Theres always a way guys, Always

if the population is going under it is because of us, The human race... as usaul thinking we can destroy anything we want as long as we have our leather or a piece of horn or a bit of wood.. hell some building ground....


These animals need protecting, and they need protecting now, not next year or the year after but now, and as hobbyist's we should be the one's to force this issue, not some scum who thinks yea, its only a spider.. who gives a :censor:... us as hobbyist's we play an important role to keep these animals alive, in CB or wild, if the hobby cares about weather there CB or WC, why does the hobby debate about the protection of these animals...

the simple low down is... no one is going to step up and say "Protect the animals at risk" ... it os our job to demand they are protected, the hobby is the only thing that will stand up in there millions and screem protect the arachnids, no one else will 

they need a voice guys, and we can be there voice.. if we choose to be :blush:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

TCBT said:


> Theres always a way guys, Always
> 
> if the population is going under it is because of us, The human race... as usaul thinking we can destroy anything we want as long as we have our leather or a piece of horn or a bit of wood.. hell some building ground....
> 
> ...


The biggest issue is that "the hobby" also feeds the demand for illegal and wild imported specimens.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Absolutely.. any 'new' species is ripe for the picking, and we are the ones that fuel the fire, whether we mean to or not.
Is there a way to balance it? The only thing I could think of was the setting up of purchased areas for preservation.. but I believe I read that even that came in for a slating.


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## TCBT (Jul 11, 2010)

GRB said:


> The biggest issue is that "the hobby" also feeds the demand for illegal and wild imported specimens.



true, very true ... but these individuals, are just money scamming :censor: with no respect for the hobby :whip: but nothing we do can stop this ofcourse, unless all caring hobbyist's such as you're self and many many others stand outside the compounds of these animals lined up ... ready to take down anyone willing to bring harm to these animals :Na_Na_Na_Na:

buttt never say never theres always away of doing things :2thumb:


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

TCBT said:


> true, very true ... but these individuals, are just money scamming :censor: with no respect for the hobby :whip: but nothing we do can stop this ofcourse, unless all caring hobbyist's such as you're self and many many others stand outside the compounds of these animals lined up ... ready to take down anyone willing to bring harm to these animals :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> buttt never say never theres always away of doing things :2thumb:



Because all the species currently in the hobby now didn't come from WC individuals?


Here's a thing to remember as well: The greatest thing you can do for the world is to not have children. We're massively overpopulated, and the number is still growing. Recycle everything, support hemp, go vegi, carry your reusable bag, walk wherever possible and drive a hybrid. Having just one less kid leaves all those efforts on the dirt.

It's worth remembering, especially when you hear the family with 5 kids complaining about the damage done to the environment...


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## durbans (Sep 16, 2009)

Wow, I'm glad my thread has garnered this kind of reaction! All good, thoughtful and genuinely selfless and interesting comments, so thanks everyone : victory:

I'm not surprised this has come full circle back to the issues of overpopulation and deforestation. I've always been a keen supporter of conservation (I refuse to say green issues thesedays as that generally include horrible schemes such as 'carbon credits' and the car scrappage scheme, which was simply a way to convince people to buy new cars - how much energy does it take to create a brand new car compared to the enegry saved from having that new, fuel-efficient car?!) and general respect of the natural world and habitat. In fact, I happen to agree with statements made which compare the human race more to a biological disease (virus) than any animal. GRB is right, wildlife will eventually dissapear until something drastic happens to reduce the world population. For the sake of the planet we need a huge natural disaster. Not a nice thing to say but it's true.

Although I know it is difficult to avoid paternal instinct, I completely agree with Hedgewitch in that we should NOT be having children. There are already enough in the world and we are causing a lot of damage, and probably making dozens of creatures & fauna extinct every day. At the same time though, my girlfriend argues that if the people who have figured out these issues stop having babies then we would be taking a step back down the evolutionary ladder because intellect would be lost generation by generation (if that makes sense!).

Anyway, back to the main crux of our discussion. I'm guessing the BTS don't approve of the sale of WC stock. As a hobby we may inevitably promote the capture and sale of new WC species and endangered WC species (I'll bet there are people on here who would buy a WC P. Metallica just to say they own one), however I believe if we associate ourselves with organisations who actively stand against this then we are making our own point, and hopefully reducing demand for WC specimens in the process. I guess it is up to these organisations, and more importantly their members, to spread these ideas and the facts behind them to promote a better way to enjoy this hobby without doing harm at the same time. We are a curse and a blessing unto ourselves. 

Personally, I think that there are enough different species in the hobby for us to completely stop the import of WC tarantulas, let's leave the classification and identification of new and/or endangered species to arachnologists. We would be greedy to buy the next 'blue/green/yellow' tarantula which arrives on our doorstep just because nobody else has it and it commands a status and premium.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

lol this thread does make me chuckle.
The Red List, well what a compleate load of crap that all is! Every species of tarantula described from India are all endangered, oh and for good measure lets throw in Brachypelma smithi because it is popular in the pet trade and even then they give it the wrong scientiffic name.

Sure habitate loss is/can be a problem but I do not believe for one second that these spiders will be extinct in the wild anytime soon. Why? because they can adapt to there suroundings. Examples:-
I remember a talk years ago given by A. smith about P. pederseni. In it he said he look everywhere for them but ended up finding the first on in a man made structure. P. hanumaviasumica (fasciata fot short lol) has been found in many other locations other than that santuary acording to that german book and a few other people. 
Most of the Pokies are found in national parks in india so where as people do illegally go in and collect fire wood I very much doubt that every nook and cranny where a spider likes to live is being destroyed. The only one that does seem to be under alot of presure is the P. smithi but even this is only in that one location. It is quite possible and I think very likely that they can be found outside this area (also note this is not on that list lol).
So why are they on the red list? Because India is Closed on exports and is quite stricked about the smuggling ishue which is why in almost every little write up on the list there is reference to the pet trade in some form. Just so you know...I reckon about 98% of all pokies you buy are captive bred.

Sure a few do get smuggled out from time to time but not many due to the fact asian arboreal spiders are bloody hard to find in the wild. Again this is nothing to do with there not being many but more to do with the amount of hiding space they have out there. Hell if one escapes in your home how easy is it to find again?
So the Yamia sp. Koh Samui is almost extinct in the wild is it? yeah right and pigs fly as well. Koh Samui is a sizable Island, Yamia sp. are very small spiders that live almost everywhere! I know of an article by a Steve Mcintyre (think thats right) who was worry that a species of Ornithoctoninae was under threat from hotels that were being built in the location so he went back and had a look for them. No he never found them there but he did find them in another location that had also been built on. These do seem to have an uncanny nack of finding new homes.

The joke that was the bts pokie santuary. You have to laugh really A. Smith chairman of a hobby club that has close links to the pet trade basicly told by the Indian bods to get lost. Of course they would go for it with this guy. The area is anyway pretty safe I reckon as there was a small temple there which ment something to the locals. All I think that fiasco achived is to bring more attention to the spiders that were already quite safe from harm, and bost the ego of the bts which I think it failed at as well.

The bts could not give a rats bum hole about WC stock. If they did they would ban the sale of it at their show like they do dwa and other stuff. Same goes for CITES how many times have they gone around to make sure there are declorations given out with brachypelma sp? But then the bts is for the hobby and not a conservation group, and lets be honest you cant claim to be a conservation group or have much to do with conservation of tarantulas if you will allow wc spiders sold at your own venue. It does look a little daft.

What does make me chuckle the most though is the ohs and ahs at what people perseive as the end of a species in the wild, but then go out and support those dealers who go out and collect loads of spiders and then bring them home in and illegal mannor. Who cares if it is WC, I like it, I want it, I'm going to get it.

As for over population well like I give a dam. I will be long dead before this gets a real problem for me. 

(holds his breath and now waits :whistling2


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> lol this thread does make me chuckle.
> The Red List, well what a compleate load of crap that all is! Every species of tarantula described from India are all endangered, oh and for good measure lets throw in Brachypelma smithi because it is popular in the pet trade and even then they give it the wrong scientiffic name.
> 
> Sure habitate loss is/can be a problem but I do not believe for one second that these spiders will be extinct in the wild anytime soon. Why? because they can adapt to there suroundings. Examples:-
> ...


Actually agree with a lot you have written.. :gasp:


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> Actually agree with a lot you have written.. :gasp:


A top write up there to be quite honest, lots of interesting and valid points.

It's nice to see some intelligent debate on here once in a while!

Paul.


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## guruphil (Oct 16, 2010)

Paul c 1 said:


> A top write up there to be quite honest, lots of interesting and valid points.
> 
> It's nice to see some intelligent debate on here once in a while!
> 
> Paul.


+1, some good points there.

I get a little bit of a mixed feeling about this subject. Totally agree that CB is the preferred way to go, but then I consider the fact that a lot of our furry friends' populations are in great danger due to efforts *outside* of the hobby and begin to feel that, whilst WC sucks great big hairy :censor:, it's better to have a captive WC population in the hobby than none at all.

A good example is the P. hanumavilasumica that the BTS have tried so hard to prevent coming into the hobby. I agree that it was right to attempt to maintain spider sanctuaries, and completely so, however it seems this has failed due to the island's desire to provide tourism for the many religious pilgrims visiting the site. 

This tourism is nothing to do with our hobby, however I feel that it's not unreasonable to justify embracing this species in the hobby whilst we still can. What I can't bring myself to justify is using the rarity of the species as an excuse for high prices, or poaching the spiders further to extinction. Perhaps a careful and slow introduction into the hobby whilst maintaining the numbers in the wild.

Examples like this would be hard to police, however if people want the spider they will already go to any length to get one (including visiting the site themselves) so perhaps there's a more mature approach.

I'm sure I'm raising fairly obsolete and/or pointless opinions, however please be kind as I'm very new to the hobby. 

Cheers.

Phil.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I'll just throw this out there.. but would it not be of benefit to sponsor someone who will be in the area of the species, will get WC and breed them, get the slings to appropriate size, and release half into the site, sending the other half to those who sponsored them? That means (in a perfect world) we could be helping WC levels, and also the level available in the hobby. 
The mad prices annoy the hell out of me, but.. if I knew it was justified, and that some good could be coming out of it, then it would placate that initial/typical rage.


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> So the Yamia sp. Koh Samui is almost extinct in the wild is it? yeah right and pigs fly as well. Koh Samui is a sizable Island, Yamia sp. are very small spiders that live almost everywhere! I know of an article by a Steve Mcintyre (think thats right) who was worry that a species of Ornithoctoninae was under threat from hotels that were being built in the location so he went back and had a look for them. No he never found them there but he did find them in another location that had also been built on. These do seem to have an uncanny nack of finding new homes.


I've got my wires crossed then. I assume the Ornithoctoninae sp. you refer to is what was sold as Ornithoctonus sp. Koh Samui? When I was told I remember Steve Mcintyre was involved. I didn't realise he'd found them else where which is nice. Where can I Find the article? The BTS journal?


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## durbans (Sep 16, 2009)

Thanks again for everybody's input so far, it's made for some very interesting and informative reading! :2thumb::2thumb: 

Especially thanks to Baldpoodle, that was good reading (although it still had the classic Baldpoodle signature written all over it!). You can stop holding your breath now! Regarding your comments about the BTS (good point about the WC @ their shows) not being a conservation group, do you (or anybody else) know of a group which you would regard as a conservation group or at least a group of people worth supporting and getting involved with?

Cheers,

David


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

From what I have seen and experienced over the years I think without new species entering the spider hobby over time more and more would leave having kept and/or bred most of what's allready been around for x number of years, and in that stale a climate im sure many of even the most diehard keepers would start to get jaded and scale down or sell up.

I could pretend I'm so jaded myself that I dont give a hoot when I see new names on sales lists but il often take the time to find a picture or dig up some info, so for those who are still more enthusiastic then I am it's not hard to see how a steady stream of new species entering the market keeps the wheels turning even if many of them are the near as damn identical to what we already have.

Now for sure the internet also gave the spider hobby a kick up the arse in terms of numbers but then some of the more desirable new species to enter the hobby gave things another boost bringing former keepers back and hooking new people who in turn help everyone else by buying the species already well established in breeding, which is another reason new species help the hobby. 

But I believe it's this very fact that distances conservation workers from exotic pet keepers/breeders, that we see any new species in the wild as a "shiny new toy" we have to get, while we as "consumers" continue to act in that way I don't think these people will change the light they see us in.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Craig Mackay said:


> I've got my wires crossed then. I assume the Ornithoctoninae sp. you refer to is what was sold as Ornithoctonus sp. Koh Samui? When I was told I remember Steve Mcintyre was involved. I didn't realise he'd found them else where which is nice. Where can I Find the article? The BTS journal?


yes and yes . vol.21 no. 4 august 2006....food for thought - something for dessert, by steve mcintyre.
you do relise this cost me 15 minutes of my time looking this up!:cussing:


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I suspect you rather enjoyed it as well


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> yes and yes . vol.21 no. 4 august 2006....food for thought - something for dessert, by steve mcintyre.
> you do relise this cost me 15 minutes of my time looking this up!:cussing:


Thankyou


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> lol this thread does make me chuckle.
> The Red List, well what a compleate load of crap that all is! Every species of tarantula described from India are all endangered, oh and for good measure lets throw in Brachypelma smithi because it is popular in the pet trade and even then they give it the wrong scientiffic name.
> 
> Sure habitate loss is/can be a problem but I do not believe for one second that these spiders will be extinct in the wild anytime soon. Why? because they can adapt to there suroundings.
> ...


See above


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I agree to an extent, but that argue fails when applied across taxa. You can't assume all species will simply adapt, since ALL taxa are competing for space and resources. Sure, we have some great generalists that will compete and find a nook somewhere in a celler or windowsill or such, but there's many more species that simply decline and go extinct. Examples? Take some of the rare british fenland spiders. They don't adapt to loss of habitat, they simply go locally extinct.


very true but I feel that tarantula spiders are much more oppertunistic than the more specilized aranomorph spiders. a hole in a brick wall or eve of a house is much the same as a hole in a tree. I know of people who have found such spiders in coconut plantations living fine, another example is L.nigerrimum. before something like 1700 the whole island was tropical forest but since then 90% is coconut plantation and where can the spider be found living? No really I get your point I just do not agrre 100% with it in regards to tarantula spiders.



> Fair enough, but can anyone tell me what sort of populations tarantulas need to maintain diversity of genetic material?


No can you? or anyone else?


> What's the ratio of caryying capacity of tarantulas in a habitat to actual density of population?


dont know. do you know? anyone know?



> Finding some in anthropogenic situations does not prove they are breeding, or sustainably reproducing without loss of fitness. I find spiders in towns all the time; most are generalist species and very common. Now and again you hear of rarer species in towns and one wonders if they are transients, or how long they persist. It could well be those P.pederseni will survive 20 years or so then decline sharply. They might not either, I can't say.


It does if you find eggsacs and spiderlings. Sustainably reproducing without loss of fitness something you can ask about many a tarantula colony weather they be so called endangered or not. 



> Not at all for "a" spider; across the entire order Araneae however...


So you think for tarantulas it all going then?


> I agree the IUCN has a lot of issues.


I think all things like this do.



> This is sort of false logic however; it's hard to find in a house rightly so, but you don't cut down your house house then ask the question _again _and see how much harder it is to find then...


you are off course right, but how many were counted before the trees were cut down and were there even any in the trees they cut down to begin with. 





> 2025?


Oh please


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> very true but I feel that tarantula spiders are much more oppertunistic than the more specilized aranomorph spiders. a hole in a brick wall or eve of a house is much the same as a hole in a tree. I know of people who have found such spiders in coconut plantations living fine, another example is L.nigerrimum. before something like 1700 the whole island was tropical forest but since then 90% is coconut plantation and where can the spider be found living? No really I get your point I just do not agrre 100% with it in regards to tarantula spiders.
> 
> Really? I'd have thought 30,000+ species of spiders to just over 1000 tarantulas would suggest the other picture. You don't find tarantulas in all that many countries nor environments (compared to trues); I can think of regions where tarantulas don't exist but spiders do, but I can't think of any the other way around.
> 
> ...


Here's some text to allow me to post this reply :2thumb:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Really? I'd have thought 30,000+ species of spiders to just over 1000 tarantulas would suggest the other picture. You don't find tarantulas in all that many countries nor environments (compared to trues); I can think of regions where tarantulas don't exist but spiders do, but I can't think of any the other way around.


This is not what I mean. I mean in the way that if some tree were to be cut down and say some shacks irrected of a plantation of some kind was to be built/grown on the land then, I see no reason why (say a poecilotheria sp.) should not be able to find a home there. Sure I do not doubt for one second that many would be killed and I do not expect you would find them in as great numbers at least untill they really establish themselfs, but never the less I think in the long run they would do ok. Off course you do not find tarantulas in all the places you can find aranomorphs but that is more to do with climate, natural boundarys and a spiders evolution which I think is different to the oppertunistic I mean.




> Nope, that's my point


Your point works both ways though. but when I think of species like mascaraneus remotus or hemirrhagus reddelli then the diversity of genetic material is not as big an ishue as what it may seem. Hey I could be very wrong and these species are much like anelosimus eximius which seem to almost die out all of a sudden bar the odd few, but if it works for them....




> True - but they have to reach reproductive age...in tarantulas that can be quite a while. Lots of change can happen on a day to day basis, I think why "true" spiders are so successful is partly due to a rapid turnover of generations. It's easier to adapt when your generation time is =<1 year compared to tarantulas which may take several years to mature.


 
Good point and something I honestly never thought about. That said however reproductive age can also be very young in regards to females. A stagered reproductive age is often more myth than fact IMO, but its true a longer maturity length would indeed effect the population in some way or another at the very least making a repopulation time longer.




> All going where? I do predict that many species of tarantula will go extinct without serious effort to protect them. There will be common tarantulas verging on pest species I'm sure, but they must lie in the minority of tarantula spp., not the majority.


Sure a few may dissapear much the same way as many other species of animmal has and will continue to do so but at the same time I do not think it is as drastic as it is often made out to be. What is it they say? an area the size of wales is cut down every day or something like that? If that is the case then there should be nothing left as that was going around over 20 odd years ago when I was a kid. 
But if it is well hard cheese I say because I do not believe you can keep these things as pets and also be of a save them from extiction in the wild type of person. At the end of the day all our stock comes from a wild caught background so even in an indirect way you have supported their often illegal collection for your own pleasure. 
The arguement will always stand the same as the habitate destruction what effect on the population will the removing of one spider cause?




> Ah, ecology... :lol2:


Indeed lol friend of mother earth I am not :whistling2:




> It's only because I'm a FO3 fan and sometimes the idea of a post apocalyptic wasteland appeals.


yeah bring it on hell on earth, no laws, no mercy I may be the first to die but I will have dam good fun doing it lol
but honestly I dont really care if things go extinct. sure it sounds a shame but we will also go extinct at some time or another and in the great time scope of things the earth will just carry on either dead or alive....well just until our sun turns super nova or something similar.:2thumb:
I think we place far too much importance on ourselfs and other species.

BTW I just want to do this ass kiss bit, but thanks for having a decent conversation instead of what normally happens when I don't share the same views with someone 100%.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

No problem; I disucss things with people of different veiws all the time; if we resorted to fighting I'd be an MMA superstar by now! 

I agree that species go extinct; my concern is that I do not wish the human species to be one of the causes of a mass extinction. They are calling the "modern" times a mass extinction, as rates of extinction are certainly elevated now compared to previous times (even previous mass extinctions). I think the evidence is pretty compelling that we are the cause of a really high rate of extinction, much higher than the "background rate".


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

durbans said:


> Anyway, back to the main crux of our discussion. I'm guessing the BTS don't approve of the sale of WC stock. As a hobby we may inevitably promote the capture and sale of new WC species and endangered WC species (I'll bet there are people on here who would buy a WC P. Metallica just to say they own one), however I believe if we associate ourselves with organisations who actively stand against this then we are making our own point, and hopefully reducing demand for WC specimens in the process. I guess it is up to these organisations, and more importantly their members, to spread these ideas and the facts behind them to promote a better way to enjoy this hobby without doing harm at the same time. We are a curse and a blessing unto ourselves.
> 
> Personally, I think that there are enough different species in the hobby for us to completely stop the import of WC tarantulas, let's leave the classification and identification of new and/or endangered species to arachnologists. We would be greedy to buy the next 'blue/green/yellow' tarantula which arrives on our doorstep just because nobody else has it and it commands a status and premium.





Baldpoodle said:


> The joke that was the bts pokie santuary. You have to laugh really A. Smith chairman of a hobby club that has close links to the pet trade What does make me chuckle the most though is the ohs and ahs at what people perseive as the end of a species in the wild, but then go out and support those dealers who go out and collect loads of spiders and then bring them home in and illegal mannor. Who cares if it is WC, I like it, I want it, I'm going to get it.


Enjoyed this thread and completely agree with these points. There are certain businesses that bring in a huge amount of WC species in and "we" all continue to buy them. People Umm and Ahh over WC, but see something they like and want, and don't hesitate at buying it. 
I don't know the ins and outs of breeding and putting Back into the wild, whether this is even a possibility or whether it's been done previously. In theory, obviously a very good idea, and if possible perhaps some of these businesses should be putting back in what they take out. 

I'm aware that I have two definite WC spiders in my collection, and purposely go out of my way Not to purchase anything but CB. At shows ect I feel all spiders should be clearly marked as to whether they are CB, WC so all consumers can make an informed decision.


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