# Dart Frog Viv Build



## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Firstly I just wanted to say Thanks to Stu (soundstounite), I subscribed to your dart frog build at the end of last year & you have really inspired me to get off my arse & do what I have always wanted to do. 

I should say that I have kept 'phibs before but not for a very long time (15 years or so). I have been keeping reps in total for 25 years, I want to use this thread to get everyones input on what I'm doing. I am more than happy to accept any_ constructive _criticisim. Please bear in mind that I am on a budget (I've got my own 0.0.1 coming in a few months!) so dont have oodles of cash to splash. I will, of course ensure that my prospective frogs have the best possible environment - it may just take me some time to get there. 

So here's where I'm at: 

About 7 years ago I had a fish tank made, this isnt any old fish tank - its 48ins x 24ins x 24ins. I had planned for this to be a day gecko viv but it didnt work out so it went into storage, here it is: - 











I have also been buying a few plants to eventually go inside the viv, here they are: - 










The next step was to create a background, I have read about expanding foam, brown silicone & coco fiber so decided to give this a go, this was actually harder than I anticipated, the foam semed to 'pull' things into it more than I expected & was basically impossible to work with while curing (try yourself, you will basically end up engulfed into the foam yourself). If I do this again I will pre make a lattice out of chicken wire or polystyrene so that I can add depth to the background. 

I added some added cork bark & 9 cm plant pots to the background to help with planting later on down the line, this was easy but I will say that if you make a mistake then sorry its too late as re-adjusting is difficult to say the least so make your decision carefully. Here are a couple of photos of the finished foam wall complete with the cork & plant pots: - 



















After a few days I attempted to silicone the background & add the coco fibre, this is actually hard work & takes some time to do properly, to (nearly) complete this step took me 3 whole days & I'm still not finished yet, here are some photos of me at work on this: - 




































You are all now basically now up to date, the viv is still on its side as Ive been busy sorting out other aspects of my home/rep collection. 

I need everyones help now, I want to build a 'hood' for the viv using MDF (I have lots spare from the table I'm buildng (more on that later on in the week) & I really want some help with plants & planting. Can Any of you help?

Ben


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

you get used to the foam you just have to anticipate the expansion most people including myself use the foam to achieve the desired look forgetting it expands ! how dry was the earth looks a bit damp but could just be the lighting 

still all in all looking very nice what darts you going for?


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## repibabe (Jan 3, 2010)

also did you put the foam straight on to the back of the tank just being nosey looks good so far A*


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

sambridge15 said:


> you get used to the foam you just have to anticipate the expansion most people including myself use the foam to achieve the desired look forgetting it expands ! how dry was the earth looks a bit damp but could just be the lighting
> 
> still all in all looking very nice what darts you going for?


These photos were taken just after the coco fiber was attached to the silicone so were still wet - the 'finished' product looks considerably dryer.

Im not even close to considering which darts I will go for, thats a discussion for several months down the line I reckon


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

repibabe said:


> also did you put the foam straight on to the back of the tank just being nosey looks good so far A*


I cleaned the glass thoroughly & sprayed with tepid water to make the foam expand - it has stuck firm to the glass, the viv has been the right way up a few times now & there has been no slippage


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## kezzbag (Jan 16, 2011)

building a hood should be pretty straight forward, id recomend making a frame first...b&q do 240mm strips of 1.5 x 1.5cm wood fairly cheap (i use it for my insect cages).....measure out the length and hight you want it and everything then just make the frame and attach the mdf to it


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I think what folks are trying to get at here is that foam doesn't usually adhere all that well to glass in the long term, which is why a lot of folks that use it apply silicone to the glass first so it has something to bind to. Also, moist eco earth wont adhere to silicone, it might be ok now but it will stop dropping off once frogs start climbing up it etc.

Easy mistakes to make, and why I prefer Gorilla Glue to the foam and silicone method (that and foam can go wrong so easily. lol). On the plus side, so long as the foam does stay stuck to the glass, the eco earth is easy to fix. Just give it a good rub to get any loose off then cover the foam in Gorilla glue and apply the Eco Earth to that moist. You will need to turn the tank on it's back obviously. 

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

My foam has lasted almost 2 years without silicone on the back.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

takes huge amount of force to remove foam from glass no idea where this myth has come from? i really like the silicone method but tbh all my eco earth is now covered in moss or ovewrgrown plants :bash:all that time i spent wasted!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

No idea Sam to be honest. Like I've said, I don't use foam, it's too messy, and with a few exceptions (like your tinc viv Sam, and the vivs where folks have carved the foam after applying it...) usually looks naff. Hence I used the carved polystyrene sheet and gorilla glue method now. It's far less likely to turn out rubbish. Maybe it came about when somebody used black silicone on the glass to HIDE the foam from the outside? Then folks clung to the idea it was to give the foam something to bind to, then folks like me repeated that? lol

I stand by one thing though. Moist eco earth WONT bind properly to silicone.

Ade


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> No idea Sam to be honest. Like I've said, I don't use foam, it's too messy, and with a few exceptions (like your tinc viv Sam, and the vivs where folks have carved the foam after applying it...) usually looks naff. Hence I used the carved polystyrene sheet and gorilla glue method now. It's far less likely to turn out rubbish. Maybe it came about when somebody used black silicone on the glass to HIDE the foam from the outside? Then folks clung to the idea it was to give the foam something to bind to, then folks like me repeated that? lol
> 
> I stand by one thing though. Moist eco earth WONT bind properly to silicone.
> 
> Ade



hmm depending if i can afford another viv when i move out next month i might try gorilla glue again i think i was trying to use it like silicone so was using to much and getting annoyed when it expanded through the earth:devil: i like having huge amounts of driftwood in my vivs the foam is handy for holding that :2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

GG is stronger than foam IMO. I mean Gorillas use it FFS.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

GG and foam are nearly the same thing, only the glue doesn't have all the gases etc added, it just reacts with the water to foam up, and sets like rock. It's too easy if it foams too much to push it back, you just have to watch it for say 30 minutes when it's finished foaming.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> takes huge amount of force to remove foam from glass no idea where this myth has come from? i really like the silicone method but tbh all my eco earth is now covered in moss or ovewrgrown plants :bash:all that time i spent wasted!


 Me Sam,well(here i guess or maybe chondro before me) that and the fact that i can remove foam from glass with a flick of the wrist and a knife,but beyond that i know the germans(peter nowark of ent) that i based my builds on used an etching primer for glass,it was one of my first posts here,where do i buy said etching primer,yeah i don't doubt it will stay there for a while,but as darts can live for many years,i only want to build once,coupled with the extreme humidity,and all the work that goes into a viv,it ain't worth not using a £3.50 tube of silicone,but you know me mate each to there own i just want everyones vivs to be what they want,look fantastic and to stay put!!

Ben thanks for the kind words mate glad you are enjoying our little madness,really appreciate you saying that up top,keep going mate i reckon its gonna look very cool.Mate i would start thinking about your future inhabitants sooner as some different species,inhabit slightly different niches to others,some climb more some need broms...etc etc,but I am just a beginner still very much trying to get my head around habitats.
As far as plants go, by and large, broms want lots of light,top story,shaded areas underneath....ferns... my must have are the creeping ficuses(although i tend to stay away from straight pumilla,because it grows so quick,but you have a large tank !!) there are some great other climbers cissus amazonica is gorgous magravia is another beauty that stays quite flat to the background. I think the biggest thing to get ones head around is many are epiphytes and do better without a pot ie broms,they are prone to rotting if they get wet feet,its a different ethos to normal growing in these extremes of humidity,ha so much to learn. Ha and we haven't even touched the mosses:lol2:.I have already said this once tonight mate get yourself a culture of tropical woods sooner rather than later, get them going now you wont regret it.
Ben have a blast with this mate its fascinating,and in a way the frogs are the icing on the cake,it took so long for us to get ours but they are so much fun to watch,it was always worth the wait
stu


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Me Sam,well(here i guess or maybe chondro before me) that and the fact that i can remove foam from glass with a flick of the wrist and a knife,but beyond that i know the germans(peter nowark of ent) that i based my builds on used an etching primer for glass,it was one of my first posts here,where do i buy said etching primer,yeah i don't doubt it will stay there for a while,but as darts can live for many years,i only want to build once,coupled with the extreme humidity,and all the work that goes into a viv,it ain't worth not using a £3.50 tube of silicone,but you know me mate each to there own i just want everyones vivs to be what they want,look fantastic and to stay put!!
> 
> Ben thanks for the kind words mate glad you are enjoying our little madness,really appreciate you saying that up top,keep going mate i reckon its gonna look very cool.Mate i would start thinking about your future inhabitants sooner as some different species,inhabit slightly different niches to others,some climb more some need broms...etc etc,but I am just a beginner still very much trying to get my head around habitats.
> As far as plants go, by and large, broms want lots of light,top story,shaded areas underneath....ferns... my must have are the creeping ficuses(although i tend to stay away from straight pumilla,because it grows so quick,but you have a large tank !!) there are some great other climbers cissus amazonica is gorgous magravia is another beauty that stays quite flat to the background. I think the biggest thing to get ones head around is many are epiphytes and do better without a pot ie broms,they are prone to rotting if they get wet feet,its a different ethos to normal growing in these extremes of humidity,ha so much to learn. Ha and we haven't even touched the mosses:lol2:.I have already said this once tonight mate get yourself a culture of tropical woods sooner rather than later, get them going now you wont regret it.
> ...



hmm perhaps there are different types of expanding foam the 3 builds i have done in the same viv have taken a decent amount of effort to cut and pull the foam away even using a lump of driftwood as a handle i couldnt remove the foam without first cutting it into smaller bits and even then it took a good 30 mins to an hour


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

That is entirely possible Sam, as it's not uncommon for manufacturers of otherwise identical products to vary the ingredients a bit. I know that most of the builds I see on US sites that use foam put silicone on the glass first. If nothing else, it produces a much tidier look from the outside of the viv if you use black or brown silicone.

I think ANY background method different people have different experiences. Just look at you and me with Gorilla Glue Sam. Works perfect for me, but you tried it and hated it. Then there is cat litter clay backgrounds, some folks love em, some folks find they just fall straight off... I reckon there is a hefty dose of luck involved in any method.

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi all,
 Thanks for all the feedback - this is exactly what I was looking for. I admit I’ve never tried the gorilla glue method, will def give this a go for my next viv build. I have tried using fern panels (failed after 2 months) & xaxim panels nailed to the back of a viv (failed after 5 1/2 months). I had never tried the foam method so though Id give it a go. I must say that this (for now) has stuck fast, when it expanded it seems to have wedged itself to all four sides - here's hoping. 

Stu - you raise a good point about potential frogs. I would like a bit of help with this, I really want a community as the space is fairly large, what do people recommend & what sex ratios?

I am also well on the way with the insect side of things - trop woods have been breeding for some time now - I have two large cultures with approx 1500 in each by my estimate - I use these for my crestie vivs as well & they literally swarm over any waste in there. Next week I will start with Mels & hydei to see how I go & get into a routine & next month I will start with the springs. 

I want some advice about lighting - my plan is to use T5's one 5800K bio vital (3ft) & one 'daylight' 6500k (again 3ft) is this enough light considering the depth of the viv, if not what do people recommend?

For heating I will use a heat cable & pulse prop thermostat, do people think this will be enough to keep the ambient air temp at an acceptable level or should I also consider some form of heating from above? 

Plant wise I already have a few broms (some viresea & neoregilia species) & I also have a couple of ficus pumillia - yes they grow fast but that’s what I want. I'm really looking for maximum coverage with the least effort to be honest - if it needs pruning then so be it!

Lastly is there anything I haven’t considered, what are the common pitfalls & things I really need to know?

Many Thanks again

Ben


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> hmm perhaps there are different types of expanding foam the 3 builds i have done in the same viv have taken a decent amount of effort to cut and pull the foam away even using a lump of driftwood as a handle i couldnt remove the foam without first cutting it into smaller bits and even then it took a good 30 mins to an hour


 Real interesting Sam i think Ade has pretty much answered for me but i would add what brand do you use,quite possibly it is superior to mine and would be really useful for others to know,ha and me too mate:2thumb:.
Stu


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Those lights will be fine. Will they be high output or normal output?

Common pitfalls are making things too complicated with the viv. Keep it simple. Can't emphasise this enough.

I've used homebase foam and it's needed to be cut away with a saw.


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Those lights will be fine. Will they be high output or normal output?
> 
> Common pitfalls are making things too complicated with the viv. Keep it simple. Can't emphasise this enough.
> 
> I've used homebase foam and it's needed to be cut away with a saw.


I was planning on the high output ones (39w) let me know if the normal ones are preferable.

Believe me I have tried to keep this as simple as possible, my original plan was to have a shallow stream running through but decided against.

The homebase foam was the stuff I used & it seems fine for the moment so fingers crossed.

Morgan, is that your Viv in your sig? I'd be really interested in seeing a larger pic if you have one?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Hi all,
> Thanks for all the feedback - this is exactly what I was looking for. I admit I’ve never tried the gorilla glue method, will def give this a go for my next viv build. I have tried using fern panels (failed after 2 months) & xaxim panels nailed to the back of a viv (failed after 5 1/2 months). I had never tried the foam method so though Id give it a go. I must say that this (for now) has stuck fast, when it expanded it seems to have wedged itself to all four sides - here's hoping.
> 
> Stu - you raise a good point about potential frogs. I would like a bit of help with this, I really want a community as the space is fairly large, what do people recommend & what sex ratios?
> ...


ha Ben looks like your well sorted woods,actually mate,remember that i am a beginner too,but learning bloody hard and fast!!
Ff's there are many methods we use(well Shaz nails most) Andie's very simple readybreak,white wine venegar,water,and do well(er i think),then we hive some off and give em some apple orange or other friut for a day or 2 before feeding,vits...REPASHY,everynow and a gain nutribal,but i think repashy is superior. there are many methods of ff rearing,so have a look around,i think a really good strain is veryimportant we struggled with mels twice,got a slightly different line and bosh more flies than one can deal with!! 
groups of frogs,this is tricky because again different guys have different experiances,but by and large leucs terribilis galactonus,mysteriousus and auratus can be kept together,but although i have heard of guys keeping a group of tincs,most don't as the lasses can play hell with each other (so best kept in pairs or male high trios),and i have heard of problems with auratus and leuc lasses fighting so there are always exceptions,a well planted viv (and in your case large) will go some way to alleviating these problems i guess because frogs can get out of sight of each other.Of the above large frogs teribilis might be ruled out as a first frog because of skin problems if you really want these then Richie B and Frognick both have experiance with these,and can help far more than I. 
Ade (wolfenrook) has great lighting knowledge,i'll just say we use a 54watt biovital aprox 1.1m over 2 60 cubes no problems,i'm sure you know about the uvb not plassing through glass but optiwhite gets you around this. and there are also some good leds out there.
I'll stop there and let others take the rains gotta do froggy stuff
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Chipping in on the lighting, unless you are going to use Optiwhite glass for your top don't bother spending the extra on Biovitals. The UV from these wont pass through normal glass, making them a waste of money.

I would say just go with 2, or better still 3, 865 T5HOs (the HO is important, normal T5s give off the same amount of light as T8s, which wont penetrate enough for plant growth at soil hight in a 2 foot high tank). Or a cheaper option would be the Dulux sets sold by Dartfrog. I just used 2 36 watt Dulux PLLs over my newest viv (a 60cm high) and the light is still at a very high intensity at soil level.

Just been looking and I would say 3 80 watt Dulux lamps would definitely do the job on there. Vivarium Projects recommend 1 strip for each 20cms, hence the 3 as your viv is 60cm front to back. I'd say go for 3 if you prefer to go for T5HO as well. Or if you want the money is no object, long term savings and better for the planet (and less heat given off) option, 2 TMC AquaGro GroBeam 1000ND tiles wil ROCK that tank, and shock you with the plant growth you get under them.  I have a single one over my 60cm x 60cm x 72cm conversion, and growth is phenomenal. At about £170 each though (extra if you also want the computer, with all the fancy dimming and storm function) they are NOT a cheap option, but at about 66watts for the 2 together, they will be kinder on your electric bill in the long term. The LEDs also have a 5 year guarantee, shorter on the psu but these are only about £20 to replace, and still last longer than flourescent lamps.

On the frogs front, unless you love terriblis (I don't personally), then I would say go for either a lovely big colony of vents (I love mine, I have Borja Ridge and Rio Napa and they are lovely and bold), or if you want something less common and potentially shyer a colony of ameerega bassieri 'Sisa' (same again, love mine). I wouldn't recommend trying mixing until you have experience with the frogs you may want to mix, and the thick skin to take the lambasting you will get for even thinking about mixing. 

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh, so that's what biovital is.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> I was planning on the high output ones (39w) let me know if the normal ones are preferable.
> 
> Believe me I have tried to keep this as simple as possible, my original plan was to have a shallow stream running through but decided against.
> 
> ...


Well I'd say normal output would probably be ok, but HO would provide much better growth, so go with those.

Mine was 60cm using homebase foam and it was absolutely ok without silicone.

Yes it is, let me try and dig one out.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)




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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> Chipping in on the lighting, unless you are going to use Optiwhite glass for your top don't bother spending the extra on Biovitals. The UV from these wont pass through normal glass, making them a waste of money.
> 
> I would say just go with 2, or better still 3, 865 T5HOs (the HO is important, normal T5s give off the same amount of light as T8s, which wont penetrate enough for plant growth at soil hight in a 2 foot high tank). Or a cheaper option would be the Dulux sets sold by Dartfrog. I just used 2 36 watt Dulux PLLs over my newest viv (a 60cm high) and the light is still at a very high intensity at soil level.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ade,
You certainly know your lighting . The Biovitatals I was planning on using are here & don’t seem that pricy are these the same as the ones sold at dartfrog? I am a firm believer in UV for all animals and also for keeping bacteria & fungus at bay (UV is nature’s great disinfectant). I was actually going to mount these inside the viv rather than use optiwhite, will these emit too much heat or do you think this will be ok (I have the option of using a couple of PC fans for extra ventilation if needed). 

By the way I most definitely wont be mixing species or even locales - I want a large (ish) group on one species only. Dare I say is but I may consider adding a pair of Gonatodes wayyy down the line but, at the moment this is just pie in the sky. 

I have always loved the Borja ridge vents - I assume they will be happy living in groups with little or no aggression??

I’m more than happy to look at all alternatives so please feel free to influence any of the decisions I’m making along the way.

Ben


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> image


Thanks Morgan,

Looks fantastic, whats the plant on the ground in the centre of the viv? I really like the look!


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

You won't be able to keep them inside due to humidity, you can however mount them above the mesh vent (if you have one) at the roof of the viv.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Thanks Morgan,
> 
> Looks fantastic, whats the plant on the ground in the centre of the viv? I really like the look!


Tiger Begonia, it's going mad! It's bigger now. 4 times I failed growing this plant then added loads of drainage to this viv and BOOOM.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

phelsumaman said:


> Thanks Ade,
> You certainly know your lighting . The Biovitatals I was planning on using are here & don’t seem that pricy are these the same as the ones sold at dartfrog? I am a firm believer in UV for all animals and also for keeping bacteria & fungus at bay (UV is nature’s great disinfectant). I was actually going to mount these inside the viv rather than use optiwhite, will these emit too much heat or do you think this will be ok (I have the option of using a couple of PC fans for extra ventilation if needed).
> 
> By the way I most definitely wont be mixing species or even locales - I want a large (ish) group on one species only. Dare I say is but I may consider adding a pair of Gonatodes wayyy down the line but, at the moment this is just pie in the sky.
> ...


They are the exact same ones as from Dartfrog, as said before though the extra £6 ish you will pay for a tube with them will be wasted if you don't use a UV passing material for your top. DON'T mount lighting inside a viv, it will have too much impact on humidity, you will risk frogs getting onto them and burning themselves (even 'terrestrial' darts climb) not to mention the risk factor with exposing the lights to such high levels of humidity.

I would say you definitely should go for vents. DON'T mix reptiles with amphibians though, especially not dart frogs. It's too too risky. Vents LOVE living in groups, they are communal frogs. I keep 3 Borja Ridge vents myself, in a tank the size of yours you could keep quite a few more than that happily. Hearing the males calling off against each other is quite cool, and they breed very readily. I already have tads in with my Rio Napa vents.

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> They are the exact same ones as from Dartfrog, as said before though the extra £6 ish you will pay for a tube with them will be wasted if you don't use a UV passing material for your top. DON'T mount lighting inside a viv, it will have too much impact on humidity, you will risk frogs getting onto them and burning themselves (even 'terrestrial' darts climb) not to mention the risk factor with exposing the lights to such high levels of humidity.
> 
> I would say you definitely should go for vents. DON'T mix reptiles with amphibians though, especially not dart frogs. It's too too risky. Vents LOVE living in groups, they are communal frogs. I keep 3 Borja Ridge vents myself, in a tank the size of yours you could keep quite a few more than that happily. Hearing the males calling off against each other is quite cool, and they breed very readily. I already have tads in with my Rio Napa vents.
> 
> Ade


Thanks Ade - this is a really good point & not one I had considered, time to rethink my lid & lighting I think. 

After what you have said I wont be adding any small day geckos with my darts - I dont want to put the frogs at risk in any way

Ben


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Thanks Ade - this is a really good point & not one I had considered, time to rethink my lid & lighting I think.
> 
> After what you have said I wont be adding any small day geckos with my darts - I dont want to put the frogs at risk in any way
> 
> Ben


 Hello again mate,you could build a glass lid with optiwhite at the back for your uvb mesh then normal glass at the front for your other light,this is the approach we are taking with all vivs from now on,as abovelights over the top.my reasoning for this is there will be variable levels of uvb for the frogs to utilise,so if they want they can sunbath...or get out of it if its to much but still be able to be out and about feeding,the groups i listed are very much thought of as beginners frog,but you have knowledge in other related fields,castanioticus can also be kept as a group.mate reading Mworks thread on oophaga,on dendroworld ,coupled with obsevations here and reserch has really made me believe uvb to be beneficial,i don't think essential,as lots of my mates don't use it and do well. But as you already know i guess all these little things add up. I think that maybe where these intangibles really become apparent is when the tad goes through metamorphosis,and SLS rears its ugly head.lotte's excellant thread stickied up top is well worth a read,on uvb.
Given uvb...vit D3 and the relevance to Ca synthisis,it wood be great for you to pass on what i picked up from you last night, regarding your woods. its something that that i have not come across before anywhere and with the undoubted importance of Ca to our frogs i think is a fantastic tip for others...nice one mate!!
seeya
Stu


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Hello again mate,you could build a glass lid with optiwhite at the back for your uvb mesh then normal glass at the front for your other light,this is the approach we are taking with all vivs from now on,as abovelights over the top.my reasoning for this is there will be variable levels of uvb for the frogs to utilise,so if they want they can sunbath...or get out of it if its to much but still be able to be out and about feeding,the groups i listed are very much thought of as beginners frog,but you have knowledge in other related fields,castanioticus can also be kept as a group.mate reading Mworks thread on oophaga,on dendroworld ,coupled with obsevations here and reserch has really made me believe uvb to be beneficial,i don't think essential,as lots of my mates don't use it and do well. But as you already know i guess all these little things add up. I think that maybe where these intangibles really become apparent is when the tad goes through metamorphosis,and SLS rears its ugly head.lotte's excellant thread stickied up top is well worth a read,on uvb.
> Given uvb...vit D3 and the relevance to Ca synthisis,it wood be great for you to pass on what i picked up from you last night, regarding your woods. its something that that i have not come across before anywhere and with the undoubted importance of Ca to our frogs i think is a fantastic tip for others...nice one mate!!
> seeya
> Stu


Hi Stu, what you have described for the lid is exactly what I'm looking into, this has set me back a bit as my original plan was for a MDF lid pained white (& sealed with yacht varnish) - I already had everything needed so back to the drawing board on that front. 

Re: UV, my personal opinion is that it is essential, (I have been keeps reps since the bad old days of powertwists & blacklights). I asked myself the following questions; Are they dirunal? - Yes. Do they use D3 to metabolise calcium - Yes. Can I provide a diet high in D3 via natural means - Probably not. Is dusting exclusively a good way to add nutrients into a diet - No (my mother is a nutritionalist & loves her pills & potions but even she says nature is best. I know UV from a tube isnt natural but its the best we willget for most of the year in the UK). 

As a teenageer I was lucky enough to do work experience at bristol zoo & cotswold wildlife park, both of these zoo's used to expose their darts to an osram ultra vitalux bulb (300w)for 5 mins 3x per week (at a distance of 2.5 - 3ft) & I have never seen brighter or healthier darts anywhere.

In reference to the calcium thing that stu is on about, its simple really - I place half an eggshell into each of my woodlice cultures every 2 weeks or so they seem to love it (i.e. its gone in 10 days or so). One of my cresties has a malfunctioning oviduct (I think - she only ever lays one good egg at a time) the woods in this enclosure will devour the bad egg within hours shell & all & also i saw a video on Youtube where someone said they love eggshell so gave it a try, kind of makes sense really they are very high in calcium so need to get is from somewhere, I imagine a piece of cuttlefish bone will do the same thing to be honest 

Will also look into those PDF's you mentioned, Im not familiar with them

Ben


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

You'll pay through the nose for castaneoticus, they're not that common so come at a premium. I know Gaz on here breeds them, and sells at a much fairer price. Common name for them is brazil nut dart frogs. Ameerega bassieri 'Sisa' are nearly as expensive, also bred by Gaz on here. 

Vents however are usually nice and cheap. lol

Regarding UV. I don't consider it essential, as you CAN manage with decent supplements for most frogs. However I do believe that it IS very useful (I have UV over my leucs, Alanis, Regina and Azureas, but have to rely on the tiny bit that gets through the screen mesh on most vivs). Especially for oophaga pumillo, where the tiny offspring often suffer from hypocalceamia. I plan to replace one of the doors on my pum viv with an optiwhite one when I can, and put a UV lamp in front to help them out. It's just a shame that more viv makers (eg. ENT, Rana) don't join RichieB in switching to using OptiWhite glass to make them out of, even if just the lid and doors. I had an argument about UV with a US hobbyist once, he kept on about the leaves in the rainforest cutting it all out by the time it reaches the frogs. HOWEVER I also read research where UV levels at floor level were actually tested properly in a rainforest habitat, and found to be higher than the levels we can actually manage with say a 5% lamp.... Says a lot really doesn't it. The fact is the sun gives off such massive amounts of UV that even in the shade quite a bit gets through. Try wearing transitions glasses on a really dull overcast day. These are UV rather than light reactive, mine turn quite gray even on rainy days if I am outside. So I am behind you on using UV, just don't see the point of wasting money if you can't actually get it into the viv somehow. Hence I don't have it on my citronella, Rio Napa or bassieri Sisa vivs. I do however supplement with Repashy, and put BSP drops in my misting water, it helps.

Love the idea bout the egg shell, I'd suggest making sure they are from an organic source though. I dread to think what you might find in the shells of hens not reared organically.  That said, I chuck egg shells in my composter regularly, and they are just free range.

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

We're all organic & free range over here - apart from the occasional Dominoes Pizza or KFC as a treat :lol2:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> We're all organic & free range over here - apart from the occasional Dominoes Pizza or KFC as a treat :lol2:


 :lol2:same as so i guess ours will get prime call duck egg shell fab tip mate its one of those doh why didn't i think of that!! Adelphabates is the genus name for castis,and as for Gaz he's a star:notworthy:everyone i have spoke to recommends his frogs,but i ain't got to him yet:mf_dribble:.
UV I have seen pics of pums basking in the sun,and very early morning in our room the sun catches the 12 viv rack,i have monitored the temps very carefully(i used to shut a blind but a conversation on here with igmillichip was the clincher) as was paranoid about temps going through the roof but they are fine,first thing our boldest auratus(the others 2 exit before i get the door open but I'm getting there) can be found stood upright sunning himself in the shaft of sunlight,god knows how much uv actually gets to him its passing through 4 panes of glass but he wants it,and like most stock the animals tell you what they want if you look hard enough.
Regarding your lid mate how about the glass and mesh held in a frame that sits just inside the vivtop, with a small handle to lift out....then make your lighting hood to sit on top of the viv,that way if your hood had a hinge front or back and a hole big enough to get your mit through in the front bit of glass feeding would be a doddle and access to lights also easy,wish i could draw it but not on this machine:bash: light hood would need venting i guess Ade you have delt with something like this on your beautiful big tank but didnt you use polycarb?
I'm gonna enjoy watching this Ben
take car
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yeah I did. Different reason for no UV on that one, that been it has an expensive LED unit on it. lol

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Yeah I did. Different reason for no UV on that one, that been it has an expensive LED unit on it. lol
> 
> Ade


 yup thats it the nd1000 init:lol2: but wasn't so much thinking about the uv aspect mate but how you sorted the light hood and ventilation out and maintained an easy form of access for feeding etc.
stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Well, in the hope it helps Phil, here's how I did it.

First off, this tank was one of those with a dual lamp light bar and flaps front and back, like a Jewel. They were T8s though, so out they came, along with the ballasts inside the bar. As I was using the 1000ND I was able to use the MMS mounting system, so 1 MMS rail and 2 T8 MMS end caps sorted out securing the light into the flappy hood.

When I converted this, 1st thing I did was to drill holes in the plastic flaps. I didn't want humidity building up in there, as although the 1000ND is water resistant I still didn't like the water that got into it when it was an aquarium. It didn't get to the LEDs or anything, but still....

Right, the bit that Phil will hopefully find most useful, as it will work whatever hood he uses.

1st up, USE those rims! They are PERFECT for siliconeing things to!










Those are 2 strips of polycarbonate, as the tank didn't have a back rim, and I wanted a vent back there.

Made the vent, more polycarb with a hole cut in it, and fruit fly proof mesh siliconed over the hole:-










Once that was dry, I siliconed this on top of the 2 strips you saw before. Let it dry and cure, then silicone 4mm E profile all around:-










That's a door hole sorted, the door came next. I wanted to use Lexan for mine (4mm) but ended up using it only for 1 side, with 4mm twin wall polycarb the other, as I found 2 sheets of lexan 1 would always end up falling out. I had to make sure the doors were permanent (unless you go at it with force) by siliconing on a couple of peaces of lexan onto the doors so once on they couldn't slid back further into the wider bit of track, as been horizontal you don't have gravity keeping the door in place like you do on a normal viv. I used that silicone on a roll between the 2 doors to fly proof it.

That was it bud, job was done. Here's the build journal if you want a look. Because I used twin wall polycarbonate and lexan (sheet polycarb) the top is actually UV passing, and I may well try to find a way to hook up a low wattage UV lamp over there one day.

Hope you find that helpful Phil. Like you I considered a hinged door, but decided against it. Oh, and finish the inside of your tank before you do the conversion on the top.  Oh and that hole by the filter pipes, I filled it with good old Gorilla glue.  Man the stuff is verstatile. :lol2:

Oh, and to note, if I had the skills and access to the materials, in hind sight using OptiWhite glass instead of the polycarbonate would probably of been nicer, but heh you can't see it anyway. I also reckon that using L profile instead of E, and a single lift out lid would have worked better, with some kind of clips to keep it closed (plants can open surprisingly tight fitting lids....).

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Thanks Ade, the details of your lid have really helped, I'm looking for a slightly lower profile lid & have a few ideas in mind, if I get time next week I will begin to design what I want & post on here for some feedback on whether it’s practical.

This week I have managed to build the table for the viv, I still need to get some skirting board to go around the edge to hide the nasty MDF I've used for the table top & to ensure that no one nudges the viv off the table (they would have to be superman as its pretty heavy! but best to be sure). 

Next steps for me are to get the substrate sorted, for the drainage layer I intend to use hydro LECA (those little clay balls) as its light, I want to save weight wherever possible, plus I think my parents have a 50l bag in the garage & saving money (so I can invest in other areas) wherever possible is what’s its all about! I'm going to top this with a porous membrane before adding the actual substrate - I intend to use a mix of coco fibre, orchid compost (without fertilizers of course), sharp sand & composted oak leaves. What are peoples thoughts on this? does anyone have any recommendations for a better mix? 

Also on Monday I'm beginning to culture FF's, I’m starting with meloganaster & hyedi using the following culture medium; 
Readybrek
White vinegar
Brewers Yeast 
Multivitamins
Banana Paste

Again thoughts & ideas are welcome? Are there better mediums out there?

Ben


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Fruit fly medai I tend to just use the ENT mix, and have found it to be the best producer, and longest lasting, of those I have tried.

Regarding your drainage, if weight is an important factor, consider going with a false bottom. They're easy enough to do using pieces of waste pipe from your local DIY and either egg crate or pond filter grids (easier to cut and less brittle). They hold a lot more water, meaning longer before you need to syphon them out. They also make adding a water feature, or hidden heating, a cynch.  I went with a fale bottom in my conversion.

Substrate, make your own bud. Make a 2 parts fine orchid bark 2 1 part pure organic sphagnum peat mix, then add about 1 part ground xaxim (very important), some crushed dried oak leaves, ground up live (live is important) sphagnum moss and a small quantity (as in a few teaspoons full) of calcium bentonite clay powder (ebay/beauty shops/health shops). It seriously rocks! Then add your woodlice and springtails. I do this in a big 25 litre bucket, and keep it in there until I need it.

Ade


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## jamesthornton (Nov 24, 2008)

I have to echo the part about Egg crate being brittle. I used it a few years ago and it was fine but recently bought a section and it just shattered in places. Got to be careful with it!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye, that's why I used pond filter grid in my conversion. It's a LOT stronger, and really easy to cut using a hacksaw. It's this stuff I used FILTER GRID EGG CRATE KOI/FISH TANK/POND/MARINE S | eBay UK. It's cheap too.

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> Fruit fly medai I tend to just use the ENT mix, and have found it to be the best producer, and longest lasting, of those I have tried.
> 
> Regarding your drainage, if weight is an important factor, consider going with a false bottom. They're easy enough to do using pieces of waste pipe from your local DIY and either egg crate or pond filter grids (easier to cut and less brittle). They hold a lot more water, meaning longer before you need to syphon them out. They also make adding a water feature, or hidden heating, a cynch.  I went with a fale bottom in my conversion.
> 
> ...


Thanks, just a couple of Q's? The ENT mix, what's the composition or is this something you buy in?

As for the substrate I have a few ideas of my own but have a few questions about your mix? What does the ground xaxim do & why is it important? Also want to know more about the calcium bentonite please?

Ben


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Pond filter grid it is then, I'd considered this but didn't know when to get it from so thanks:blush:


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

I will post some updated pics on the weekend, the viv is now on the table & I'm well into the planning stages for the lid.

Can someone give me some ideas on how much ventilation I need as I want to factor this into the build now

Ben


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

ENT mix is bought in, from ENT in Germany (Dartfrog also sells it). It's not the cheapest option, but I just find it works the best for me.

Regarding the substrate, the ground xaxim is very important to it, it both aids water retention and drainage, plants grow really well with this in the mix. The calcium bentonite, well I found that my plants again do better with this present than not, I believe this is thanks to the calcium in it, which plants need to convert nitrogen products back into usable nitrogen. It may or may not also come with the advantage of getting into the guts of soil custodian inverts or stuck to them, then get eaten by the frogs, thus helping to get more calcium into them, but in the tiny quantities I use I doubt this. It most definitely helps the plant growth though.

I tried a few things with substrates before settling on my current mix, including Dendrosoil but that proved a bit hit and miss, where my current mix hits every time. :2thumb:

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Thought I'd post a couple of pics of my progress, I've finished tidying up the back wall & the viv is now on the table I've constructed (man that was hard work!) 

I'm just waiting for the calcium bentonite to arrive so that I can get started on mixing my substrate together. 

I have also finished planning out the lid, does anyone know if I can get optiwhite glass fom a normal glazier?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Most glaziers who stock pilkington glass should be able to get OptiWhite. I think in the US it's called Starfire glass.

Oh re the bentonite, although I swear by it it is optional. Very few folks use it, those who do though also swear by it, some even make it into a clay and bake it into little cubes. I just prefer to use it as a powder.

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> Most glaziers who stock pilkington glass should be able to get OptiWhite. I think in the US it's called Starfire glass.
> 
> Oh re the bentonite, although I swear by it it is optional. Very few folks use it, those who do though also swear by it, some even make it into a clay and bake it into little cubes. I just prefer to use it as a powder.
> 
> Ade


My local glazier _only _stocks pilkington (according to their website), I'm going to call again tomorrow & ask for Starfire :lol2:
Thanks for the heads up re the bentonite, I've ordered it now so may as well use it. Whilst we are talking about substrates I'm going to substitute the peat aspect of the mix you mentioned with composted oak leaves, its free draining & is a good alternative to peat based products


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Should be fine bud, I've substituted eco-earth for peat before now, with only a slight difference. I just found that I get the maximum growth with the peat.

Oh and something you might find useful, I am trying something different for a false bottom, or about to. I bought some Smart Price storage tubs from Asda, going to silicone these in upside down (without lids) as supports for the grid. Piping is hard for me to cut straight and evenly, no cutting using these, and because no water can get into them no need to cut holes in the bottom for it to drain out.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ben just a little thing some glaziers will ask a lot for optiwhite,mine wanted £15 for a bit 15cmx50,but i managed to pick up 2msq for around £20 in offcuts,which we then cut to size ourselves,have you decided on frogs yet?
Stu


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Ben just a little thing some glaziers will ask a lot for optiwhite,mine wanted £15 for a bit 15cmx50,but i managed to pick up 2msq for around £20 in offcuts,which we then cut to size ourselves,have you decided on frogs yet?
> Stu


This is a really good idea Stu, not sure where I will be able to get an offcut large enough for my needs though (115 x 30 cm), I've asked for a quote so we'll see what comes back - where did you source your offcuts from?

I am thinking about ventrimaculatus for my frogs but I'm open to other suggestions for frogs which can be kept communally without aggression (tbh I'm finding it difficult to do.d info on which frogs are more or less prone to aggression in groups) please feel free to make more suggestions everyone.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Vents are an EXCELLENT choice bud, but I am biased, I have 3 different localities in my collection. lol

Another good communal frog, if the space is big enough, are ameerega bassieri Sisa, I have 7 of them in my tank conversion.

The other species that was suggested to me was Adelphobates castaneoticus, but they can be rather expensive frogs.

Oh and re the OptiWhite. If you can get to Newport south Wales, and can't get a satisfactory quote from a glazier near to you, RichieB sells 4mm OptiWhite glass                                             Rainforest   Vivariums               - Home.

Ade


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> Vents are an EXCELLENT choice bud, but I am biased, I have 3 different localities in my collection. lol
> 
> Another good communal frog, if the space is big enough, are ameerega bassieri Sisa, I have 7 of them in my tank conversion.
> 
> ...


Hi Ade, 
although I like the bassieri I am getting a good feeling about vents so I think my mind is made up. (sorry but the castaneoticus just dont do it for me).

I now need to start planning the viv interior, can I have some advice about how to set this up?

What diameter branches should I be using & how best do they like it planted?

I was going to aim for a relatively clear area in the centre of the viv (for feeding) but I'm now rethinking this as I dont want to waste any space - there is so much to start planning for! Day Geckos were never this difficult :lol2:

Re the optiwhite - Illl wait for the quote & see what comes back, I can get to newport no problem I just object to having to pay to get into Wales especially when its free for them to get into England:lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Heh no need to be sorry, I don't keep casties either, and would back you decision to go with vents 100%! They are bold, beautiful and breed so readily.

For wood I have developed a real liking for the small and medium sized corkscrew liana from Dartfrog. I've not had any problems with mould on it etc, and it's a good price. I've always used a bit of some other wood as well in the past, but my last build I kept it simple and used JUST small and medium liana, it looked brilliant planted up with broms. Hope you don't mind me using photographs to show what I mean:-










I used about 3 lengths of liana there, cut into smaller sections. I would leave a bit of space open to the front, 1 it gives you somewhere to plant a couple of plants for yourself 2 it gives you somewhere to put a thick layer of leaf litter which the vents LOVE.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cool viv Ade,:2thumb:,still a little deja vue:lol2:,funny eh? but we differed in the planting,still love yours though.
Ha Ben glad you have found your choice frogs, was just going to delve into my big 'eavy book to see if there were more options,as far as the glass mate i'll pm ya if necessary,have me reasons.
Ben the lianas that Ade mentions are supercool, beautiful pieces of wood,if your budget is tight though ,good old english oak is a great option, there are some stunning bits of wood liying about,one just has to look hard,ha and wondering around in woods is right up my street anyway,we also use our native lonicera,but i have reservations on how long it will last and so fix, so its easily removed,it looks lovely in the vivs and no problems so far,but tis early days yet!!
Just a thought on viv design which only hit me after about 5 or 6 builds we only have very few components to a viv...soil background,plants,the wood as above and rocks,it might be worth pondering the latter,i pretty much overlooked them at first,thought it might be worth a mention,and there is fun to be had knocking up fake ones if weight is an issue.I guess the leaflitter could be included aswell,its esssential to me now,even only actually keeping darts for a few months now,within days i was astounded by how much our frogs utilise this resource,and so far,that is true of every frog we keep,we really don't pop so many plants in the substrate now,and they are mainly around the edges,but plant densely on the walls,good luck with it mate
Stu


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> Heh no need to be sorry, I don't keep casties either, and would back you decision to go with vents 100%! They are bold, beautiful and breed so readily.
> 
> For wood I have developed a real liking for the small and medium sized corkscrew liana from Dartfrog. I've not had any problems with mould on it etc, and it's a good price. I've always used a bit of some other wood as well in the past, but my last build I kept it simple and used JUST small and medium liana, it looked brilliant planted up with broms. Hope you don't mind me using photographs to show what I mean:-
> 
> ...


 
The picture of the viv you posted looks great:mf_dribble:, do you find that they prefer to use the thinner or thicker branches? all my reps have a disctinct preference, some not wanting to use anything thinner than their body whilst some will use the thinnest of twigs to balance on. I dont want to put in a load of different branches that wont suit them so your experience here will be invaluable. 

I'm not shelling out for posh imported branches though (I'm stingy like that!) I always use dried english Ivy stems, they come in all sizes from a few mm to nearly 10cm thick, I have these dried in a kiln to kill of any nasties & they are also very light (I will be fixing them in place for this viv as I dont want my frogs or plants crushed), also they are a little different & the effect when the stems cross & fuse with each other is unbeatable. Best of all they are free!

Ben


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

phelsumaman said:


> Hi Ade,
> although I like the bassieri I am getting a good feeling about vents so I think my mind is made up. (sorry but the castaneoticus just dont do it for me).
> 
> I now need to start planning the viv interior, can I have some advice about how to set this up?
> ...


What you need is a free get into wales badge on your car like we all have then you dont even have to pay :whistling2:

you should get opti white at any glaziers its quite common now, its used by my glazier in all there sealed units so they only get opti white in now, thats why all my vivs are made in it

cheers
Richie


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

richie.b said:


> What you need is a free get into wales badge on your car like we all have then you dont even have to pay :whistling2:
> 
> you should get opti white at any glaziers its quite common now, its used by my glazier in all there sealed units so they only get opti white in now, thats why all my vivs are made in it
> 
> ...


Thanks Richie, hopefully the can get it at a reasonable price - I didn't even know there was a get into Wales free badge not that I need one! 

By the way the plants you sent me about a month ago are growing brilliantly & were some of the best packaged I've had, cheers bud:2thumb:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

My vents seem to climb on anything they can get to if I am honest. They do seem to like to perch on dried bracket mushrooms in the case of my French Guiana though. My Rio Napa spend a LOT more time at ground level, whilst my Borja Ridge are all over the place. lol

The viv pictured doesn't actually have vents in it though. I just thought it was a nice example of what you can do using just liana. I tend not to think of it as expensive, as it's about £7 for a meter of the small stuff and about £9 for about a meter of the medium. Compared to the Sumatra wood and Red moor root I have used, that's really cheap. lol I came within a click of spending £38 for a piece of manzanita for my wifes new White's viv earlier, but managed to stop myself and bought some much cheaper cork branches instead. lol

As to paying to get into Wales, there are more ways to get into Wales than over the Severn bridge you know. lol

Ade


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

phelsumaman said:


> Thanks Richie, hopefully the can get it at a reasonable price - I didn't even know there was a get into Wales free badge not that I need one!
> 
> By the way the plants you sent me about a month ago are growing brilliantly & were some of the best packaged I've had, cheers bud:2thumb:


No problem like i say most glaziers stock it now.
Glad youre pleased with the plants : victory:

and i was joking about the badge to get into wales, but you would be surprised at how many people think the welsh dont have to pay :lol2:
Richie


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

richie.b said:


> No problem like i say most glaziers stock it now.
> Glad youre pleased with the plants : victory:
> 
> and i was joking about the badge to get into wales, but you would be surprised at how many people think the welsh dont have to pay :lol2:
> Richie


Doh!!! dont I just feel silly now :blush:


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Cool viv Ade,:2thumb:,still a little deja vue:lol2:,funny eh? but we differed in the planting,still love yours though.
> Ha Ben glad you have found your choice frogs, was just going to delve into my big 'eavy book to see if there were more options,as far as the glass mate i'll pm ya if necessary,have me reasons.
> Ben the lianas that Ade mentions are supercool, beautiful pieces of wood,if your budget is tight though ,good old english oak is a great option, there are some stunning bits of wood liying about,one just has to look hard,ha and wondering around in woods is right up my street anyway,we also use our native lonicera,but i have reservations on how long it will last and so fix, so its easily removed,it looks lovely in the vivs and no problems so far,but tis early days yet!!
> Just a thought on viv design which only hit me after about 5 or 6 builds we only have very few components to a viv...soil background,plants,the wood as above and rocks,it might be worth pondering the latter,i pretty much overlooked them at first,thought it might be worth a mention,and there is fun to be had knocking up fake ones if weight is an issue.I guess the leaflitter could be included aswell,its esssential to me now,even only actually keeping darts for a few months now,within days i was astounded by how much our frogs utilise this resource,and so far,that is true of every frog we keep,we really don't pop so many plants in the substrate now,and they are mainly around the edges,but plant densely on the walls,good luck with it mate
> Stu


Thanks for this Stu. Out of interest which book are you referring to? I have an addiction to rep/'phib books so I love to have all the best reference books to hand, I already have a couple but there are a couple which I *NEED* to have in my collection. 

I may well look at some oak, this is something that I can source very easily, do you use fresh cut or older, dried out pieces?

I know I keep referring to weight being an issue, the main reason for this is that I have some jurassic limestone which I want to use, I brought this back when I was last in the caribbean, Ive been curious about making some fake rocks but will probably leave it this time.

Yuor planting method is exactly what I was thinking of, I do want a couple of plants in the substrate as there is so much ground to cover! & as for leaf litter, I've been doing a bit of research on this & am now sold on the idea, the plan is to use rhododendron leaves as they seem to be fairly long lasting - can I just check these are ok to use with darts as Ive not heard of anyone else using them?

Ben


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Afraid not, they're pretty toxic. I have LOADS in my garden and they look awesome, but I couldn't use them


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Morgan is right, they're pretty nasty toxicity wise Rhododendron Toxicity.

Of the leaves I have tried, Indian Almond have lasted the longest, followed by magnolia and then oak which vanishes pretty quickly.

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Yeps.

Reminds me, need more leaf litter.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Thanks for this Stu. Out of interest which book are you referring to? I have an addiction to rep/'phib books so I love to have all the best reference books to hand, I already have a couple but there are a couple which I *NEED* to have in my collection.
> 
> I may well look at some oak, this is something that I can source very easily, do you use fresh cut or older, dried out pieces?
> 
> ...


hey Ben
the bible is by Lotters,Jungler,Henkle,and Schmidt,its called: Poison frogs
gonna set you back around £70 big ouch!!! worth every penny IMO,(ha bloody heavy too so you'll get a work out for free i carry it with me....so so sad:blushthere is a much cheeper truncated version by S.and H. same title.
Oak: yup heavy,but i am using paper thin green house glass,and have just about got away with it so far,mate I look for totally seasoned dead bits,you'll clock em,the weather does amazing stuff to the grain,maybe hard won but absolutly worth the quest!!
Stone: 'ere ya go,get a diamond holesaw,hollow out the unseen sides to remove the weight,you could always plug these with cork/silicone to prevent access by da froggies.
Rhode,i think contains cyanide as does Laurel,i know one very educated breeder that does use laurel,but only dead leaves...but personally i stay away,frogs have such super sensitive skins,clematis armandii makes a cool contrast to oak,on the leaves for nought side,also the Yanks use magnolia,which i will sort this autumn i used to work in an arbouretum and have got this sorted.
be lucky dude
Stu


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

It's a shame Rhodo leaves can't be used the look like they would last a long time, not going to risk it in any case so oak it is then, I should be able to source some magnolia leaves later in the year so may give them a try as well. 

I will be getting the book you mentioned in due course, glad you have recommended, I have had my eye on it for a while now 

Ben


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi all,
I know its been a while, I thought I would update you on my progress (as slow as it is!). I now have the substrate in & the first wave of plants are installed. I have also seeded the viv with tropical springtails (2 species), temperate springtails & dwarf tropical woodlice - all seem to be doing well. 





































Just wondering whether anyone has any experience with propagating lichens? I've spoken with the people who care for my local forest & they have a load of (relatively) fresh cut oak for me - its 1.5 years old, basically straight & of a decent thickness (1.5 cm > 5 cm), its covered in lichens & I would like to continue to keep it alive in my viv. anyone had any experience with this or are dart vivs too hot?

Ben


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

sorry pics didnt come through


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

phelsumaman said:


> Hi all,
> I know its been a while, I thought I would update you on my progress (as slow as it is!). I now have the substrate in & the first wave of plants are installed. I have also seeded the viv with tropical springtails (2 species), temperate springtails & dwarf tropical woodlice - all seem to be doing well.
> 
> image]image[/URL]
> ...


Pic fail .......



must try harder :lol2:


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

bothrops said:


> Pic fail .......
> 
> 
> 
> must try harder :lol2:


Yes D- for me 

:blush:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Yes D- for me
> 
> :blush:


 :lol2: man i never got that high d- is something to aspire too.
Well mate lichens mine on oak,the grey ones melt so far quite quickly say within a month but don't ask about species:blush:. But there are some spanking liverworts out there they do ...in the RIGHT place it seems,oh heck how rude,the viv's comming mate good work kiddo what plants for the back?
Sorry mate got a head full of selenium:mf_dribble::whistling2:
Stu


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

phelsumaman said:


> sorry pics didnt come through
> 
> image
> 
> ...


 
Much better! 


Looks great. I would be looking for a bit more 'structure' in terms of a couple of specimen plants and maybe some logs/branches etc to give it a more 3D feel... was there a reason you didn't 'do' the ends?


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> :lol2: man i never got that high d- is something to aspire too.
> Well mate lichens mine on oak,the grey ones melt so far quite quickly say within a month but don't ask about species:blush:. But there are some spanking liverworts out there they do ...in the RIGHT place it seems,oh heck how rude,the viv's comming mate good work kiddo what plants for the back?
> Sorry mate got a head full of selenium:mf_dribble::whistling2:
> Stu


still deciding Stu, I'm taking my time as i want to get the best look I can, I'm in no rush here so I can decide on whats best for the vents I want & what will look best
Ben


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

bothrops said:


> Much better!
> 
> 
> Looks great. I would be looking for a bit more 'structure' in terms of a couple of specimen plants and maybe some logs/branches etc to give it a more 3D feel... was there a reason you didn't 'do' the ends?


Agreed 100% - I was looking at some dried ivy branches which I use for all of my phelsuma vivs but have decided against so will be picking up some fresh oak branches this weekend. this is still very much a work in progress, been researching & planning since last December & only go to the actual building stage in mid May.

Plant wise I still have a few here that need to go in & I will be ordering a few more broms as focal points - as I said nowhere near complete yet this is just an update with my progress.

I didnt 'do' the ends as I wanted the maximum viewing angles possible, I prefer to be able to look at it all from every angle possible, I did toy with the idea of creating a 'tree stupm effect with lots of different plants growing out of it but decided to go with a more accepted method for my first attempt - maybe next time (& despite what the Mrs says there will be plenty more of these!)
Ben


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Agreed 100% - I was looking at some dried ivy branches which I use for all of my phelsuma vivs but have decided against so will be picking up some fresh oak branches this weekend. this is still very much a work in progress, been researching & planning since last December & only go to the actual building stage in mid May.
> 
> Plant wise I still have a few here that need to go in & I will be ordering a few more broms as focal points - as I said nowhere near complete yet this is just an update with my progress.
> 
> ...


:lol2::lol2: The bug has bitten...


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> :lol2::lol2: The bug has bitten...


Hate to admit but you are definitely right, I blame you lot!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Hate to admit but you are definitely right, I blame you lot!


 we're like a plague,:lol2::lol2:
thought so with the visability,Ben i might have a pressie for ya i'll send ya a pic pm like,see if ya want, give me a while mate silly busy:mf_dribble:
Stu


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi guys,
things beginning to take shape, my broms arrived a couple of weeks ago & I've now installed the branches - this was _very_ difficult, trying to securely screw together uneven pieces of wood at an ungodly angle took me forever:devil:

The lighting has also arrived & will be installed with the lid over the next few weeks, pretty much all the hard landscaping is finished so I think I now need to focus on some of the softer elements, I reckon the background needs a couple of species of mosses & some liverworts & maybe a small fern or two. 

After that I will just have to wait for it to grow in 




























Ben


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

nice one Ben,just an opinion:i'd have the mosses/liverworts and ferns growing off the branches as epiphytes,and get a couple more creeping ficus to sort out the background,planted at the bottom they will soon cover it ha but i'm biased as i love the ficuses. oh and more depth to the leaf litter,the frogs love it.
good work matee i like the concept well done
regards
Stu


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> nice one Ben,just an opinion:i'd have the mosses/liverworts and ferns growing off the branches as epiphytes,and get a couple more creeping ficus to sort out the background,planted at the bottom they will soon cover it ha but i'm biased as i love the ficuses. oh and more depth to the leaf litter,the frogs love it.
> good work matee i like the concept well done
> regards
> Stu


Thanks Stu will consider the liverworts, & ferns, I think the ficus needs some consideration , I have some variegated, normal & some quercifolia, ( oak leaved & normal not in the viv yet though) since these photos I also added two varieties of inch plant which are doing great (too great if you ask me tbh). I really want a couple of sp of orchids for the branches these will need to wait as not available in the UK I've had a think today & feel that there are a couple of spaces where I can add some liverworts along the branches will have to see?

the leaves you are completely right about not nearly enough leaves, it feels like I put double the amount in a couple of weeks ago, I will be adding LOADS this Autumn, Frogs are a ways off so plenty of time to get things right 
Ben


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Thanks Stu will consider the liverworts, & ferns, I think the ficus needs some consideration , I have some variegated, normal & some quercifolia, ( oak leaved & normal not in the viv yet though) since these photos I also added two varieties of inch plant which are doing great (too great if you ask me tbh). I really want a couple of sp of orchids for the branches these will need to wait as not available in the UK I've had a think today & feel that there are a couple of spaces where I can add some liverworts along the branches will have to see?
> 
> the leaves you are completely right about not nearly enough leaves, it feels like I put double the amount in a couple of weeks ago, I will be adding LOADS this Autumn, Frogs are a ways off so plenty of time to get things right
> Ben


 :lol2::lol2: i actually was going to ask if you had an armed guard for the inch plant,but thought it sounded a bit off, so withheld that:whistling2:. I always go for the slow growing stuff myself Ben,theory being i don't want to be constantly cutting back,especailly once you've got a group of darts breeding.The reality is most of it grows pretty damn quick once established any way possibly even more reason for the slower stuff. But i do keep good stocks of tradescantia and ficus pumilla,i use them for QT tubs and now the kids,well ok kid:bash:. they are so rampant they are ideal as a throwaway,easily propergated and fast cover.'Ere on the fern front that psillosoides? that Graham/Marcus use is something i have always desired that would look cool on the branches as well.
I'm developing a liverwort fetish:mf_dribble:,i'm just in from rockcarving, i've started putting in little hollows in the rocks to hold a bit of water for them,i have a native that i have been trying to work out where it likes for ages and i think i have it sussed,it likes damn wet places,its a wonderful little plant...looks like seaweed ........pretty sad huh:gasp:
better get back to it if i can see
seeya buddy
Stu


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Stu I do need an armed guard for the inch plant, you volunteering? :whistling2:, my personal feeling is that a pair of scissors will do fine, I figure once a month I can get in there & trim back, you're right though some of the fast stuff will be great for the grow out enclosures, I don't want to be anal about it all so an occasional trim will be fine. As for the psillosides (sp?) I thought this was an orchid?? I really want this in my viv (as well as a few other accent plants), BTW liverworts are also fast becoming my thing too, they're fantastic, really suited to a viv & look amazing, can't wait to start with them, I have two species (i think?) growing & can't wait to add them to my viv

Ben

[QUOTE=soundstounite;8764992]:lol2::lol2: i actually was going to ask if you had an armed guard for the inch plant,but thought it sounded a bit off, so withheld that:whistling2:. I always go for the slow growing stuff myself Ben,theory being i don't want to be constantly cutting back,especailly once you've got a group of darts breeding.The reality is most of it grows pretty damn quick once established any way possibly even more reason for the slower stuff. But i do keep good stocks of tradescantia and ficus pumilla,i use them for QT tubs and now the kids,well ok kid:bash:. they are so rampant they are ideal as a throwaway,easily propergated and fast cover.'Ere on the fern front that psillosoides? that Graham/Marcus use is something i have always desired that would look cool on the branches as well.
I'm developing a liverwort fetish:mf_dribfble:,i'm just in from rockcarving, i've started putting in little hollows in the rocks to hold a bit of water for them,i have a native that i have been trying to work out where it likes for ages and i think i have it sussed,it likes damn wet places,its a wonderful little plant...looks like seaweed ........pretty sad huh:gasp:
better get back to it if i can see
seeya buddy
Stu[/QUOTE]


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Stu I do need an armed guard for the inch plant, you volunteering? :whistling2:, my personal feeling is that a pair of scissors will do fine, I figure once a month I can get in there & trim back, you're right though some of the fast stuff will be great for the grow out enclosures, I don't want to be anal about it all so an occasional trim will be fine. As for the psillosides (sp?) I thought this was an orchid?? I really want this in my viv (as well as a few other accent plants), BTW liverworts are also fast becoming my thing too, they're fantastic, really suited to a viv & look amazing, can't wait to start with them, I have two species (i think?) growing & can't wait to add them to my viv
> 
> Ben
> 
> ...


 Lmao yeah i'll be your armed guard. Ben i'm almost cirtian that Psillosiodes is a fern...i always thought it was an orchid too,but i'll happily stand corrected,
take care mate
Stu


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