# The Avicularia situation!



## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Maybe make this a sticky so that people can find it :lol2:

*Why am i doing this thread?
*
So many people recommend a "pink toe" as a good first or second spider. I don't disagree in the slightest! But the majority of people aren't as Avic orientated as me... ok maybe Elaine :lol: But not many! 
Most people buy a pink toe from a pet shop labelled as _Avicularia avicularia_, _Avicularia metallica_ etc and so think no different, why would you?? I wouldn't if i didn't know people who study this kinda thing :lol2:

*So what is a pink toe?

*A "pink toe" is a collective common name for _Avicularia_ species. There are loads of species of "pink toe" (which i'll call Avics through the rest of the post) but only so many are in captivity.

*How to care for an Avicularia species:

*_Avicularia_ species are *arboreal *spiders, that is they live in trees/up high. In the wild the spider will build a cocoon web on cracked bits of bark, holes in tree trunks etc 
In captivity keep these spiders in upright containers. A layer of about 4" of substrate (something that holds moisture, i personally recommend coir/coconut fibre) with a piece of bark as a hide, laid vertically up the side of the tub. _Avicularia_ are a species who like to web. They'll produce vast amounts of web and live in a tube web as protection. 
_ Avicularia_ need humidity and lots of ventilation - hence why i'd not suggest for a beginner. I tend to keep my Avics in 5l cereal containers and plastic sweet jars. Holes drilled in the lid and drilled all round the base of the tub in 2 rows, top and bottom. Mist weekly or twice weekly, provide a water bowl aswell for adults, either on the floor or you can hot glue gun it to a piece of bark up high. Keep the spiders at about 75-82F and preferably with light from above, and all should be good!

*Right, so why is my spider NOT Avicularia avicularia?

*I'll put this in simple terms, but feel free to ask any questions or add things 

For a spider to be classified, it first has to be discovered. When it's first discovered, it's drawn and has key features noted and then the specimen is kept in alcohol in a museum. This is the "type" for that species. Anything that is not identical to this spider, is not the same species. 
The drawings should show spermathecae, colours, the males sexual organs (emboli and apophysis) etc

Recently, a couple of people published a BTS journal on looking through for the _Avicularia avicularia_ specimen originally found by Linnaeus, 1758. They found the "correct" specimens and also the pictures and notes he'd made on the spider. The pictures were near enough just a black/dark spider with pink toes. No indication of size etc and no locality registered i don't think (anyone care to correct me?) so from these we were no further forward. 
Then they had a look at the alcohol and the dried specimen. If you have the journal, it's there in pictures so you can see what they were looking at.

After carefully looking at the specimens, as they're very old! the researchers discovered that one of the specimens supposedly meant to be_ Avicularia avicularia_ was infact _Stromatopelma calceatum_! A completely different spider, completely different coloured, and completely different country of origin!!! The second also proved to be a completely different species.

So basically... We don't actually know what the spider that Linnaeus found really looks like, apart from some really old (and not awfully helpful) drawings. 

This is why we label any spiders bought as _Avicularia avicularia_ as _Avicularia sp. "Guyana", _at least for now.

Over the years various different species have been collected and sold as various names. There are lots of _Avicularia_ species which are black/blue with pink toes:

_* huriana
amazonica
metallica
braunshauseni
avicularia *_
etc etc 

And so dealers cottoned on that by adding a newer/better name to the spiders, they would sell quicker and for more! BINGO where the problem starts.
Buy in spiders labelled as _Avicularia avicularia_, sell them as_ Avicularia braunshauseni _because they get bigger but look the same so no-one will know! Whack a huge price tag on them, but because they're new people buy them! (Can i point out, it's normally the smaller dealers that did this, not large wholesalers etc)
So people grow it on, get a male, advertise it as _braunshauseni._ Someone who has the real_ braushauseni_ female grabs the male, mates the 2, gets babies.. bingo.. one hybrid created! And no-one is any wiser... It happened with many of them basically and now nobody is sure what is what anymore!

The whole genus needs re-doing and i believe it may be being done somewhere! But it's not a small or easy task. 

So for now.. everything that comes from Guyana or thereabouts is labelled as _Avicularia sp. "Guyana" _to be on the safe side, and i, personally, will not breed from these species. They are pet shelf only until the genus is sorted out. 

I do breed _Avicularia_. But only the "not messed up ones" :lol2:
_ versicolor, minatrix, laeta _etc

And i buy from reputable people on any other species. I have seen people selling for example _"peru purple"_ under many different names! Pay a fortune for it, get it home, grow it on.. its a_ "peru purple"_. Great! Trust me.. i've done it lol
So i now buy from trustworthy people and i seek a taxonomists opinion on Avics i wish to breed. But until the genus is sorted, i keep _sp. "Guyana"_ labelled as such, and they sit on the pet shelf, then once dead they are preserved and go for research purposes 

Hope this helps people a little! It's a lot more long winded though really... 

This describes it in a lot more detail:

The Tarantula Store -> The Genus Avicularia

Enjoy and feel free to leave comments and ask questions :no1:


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## SpiderGirl33 (Sep 2, 2007)

Thanks Becky :no1: 

how do you preserve a spider? : victory:


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

putting in a high % alcohol or freezing them (which is what iv done until i have high concentration alcohol) beer doesnt do btw:lol2:

nice thread Bex with Avics so popular its good to give people a point in the right direction


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

I put my spiders in the freezer to preserve them, then the person who i give them to, who wants them at the time for whatever work, puts them in a jar of alcohol.


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## Elaine R (Feb 2, 2008)

Yip, that about sums it up Becky  

Like you, I have many Avics here, the most easily recognisable being the versicolor's but I dont know if they are large or small form yet so there is even a question mark over them until they are mature :whistling2:

Avicularia purpurea is exactly what its supposed to be. I also have A. cf purpurea so will wait and see how they turn out.

I also have Avic sp "fasciculata's" that may not even be Avics, A. sp. "bicegoi" that isnt even in the hobby as far as we know. The original bicegoi was totally different for the present day hobby one. A. sp "Amazonica" that could end up being anything but is totally gorgeous. A. metallica is now labled as A. sp "Guyana". A. braunshauseni, will have to wait and see on this one. A. sp "Peru purple" that seem to be the real deal but time will tell. A. sp "bicegoi" that is looking exactly like my A. sp "Amazonica". A. azuraklaasi which are so cute but who knows what they really are. I even have one thats labled as Avic sp. ??? lol

The taxonomists have done a lot of work already but without the original specimens to work with will be in a for hard job. Personally I think they would be better starting again from scratch. Boy have they got their work cut out.

The joy of Avics. It hasnt put me off keeping them but I'm not intending to breed the unknowns and add to the mess the Genus is already in. Its such a shame too.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

It is a shame Elaine. I've got:

versicolor - both forms
fasciculata
minatrix
purpurea
laeta
peru purple (bought as huriana!)
bicegoi (which looks completely dif to your lil bicegoi! Mines yellow!)
sp. "guyana" (bought as avic avic)

So i've mainly got the recogniseable ones


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## Elaine R (Feb 2, 2008)

I will need to tslk to the breeder of a versicolor's to find out what mine are. They are only 3 inches just now.

Just as an example here is a pic of my A. sp "bicegoi" (the one thats in the hobby just now) and the link to Rick West's site for the pic he has there of a possible bicegoi









Avicularia sp. (poss. bicegoi Mello-Leitao, 1923), female, Brazil - Rick West - Birdspiders.com

Totally different spiders :bash:


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Exactly lol Look at Mary's old bicegoi female she had.. completely different again!


You'll know what form your versi are as they grow up anyway hun


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Thanks for that - a very interesting and informative read.


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## robhalex (Jul 22, 2008)

id love to be preserved. to be kept in a high alcohol concentration, actually come to think of it, i normally do on a friday night :devil:


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## Peacemaker1987 (May 21, 2009)

Thats a really interesting read, i want to get in to breeding avics eventually...but it looks like ill have to be really careful on what i am looking to breed. Was intending to give versicolours a go, but will need to make sure i don't mix the two types. 
If i may, can i send a picture of my versi to either Elaine or Becky to see if you can say whether it is large or small form?
It is still not mature, so i do not know if you'll be able to ID it as either. 
Cheers


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

Peacemaker1987 said:


> Thats a really interesting read, i want to get in to breeding avics eventually...but it looks like ill have to be really careful on what i am looking to breed. Was intending to give versicolours a go, but will need to make sure i don't mix the two types.
> If i may, can i send a picture of my versi to either Elaine or Becky to see if you can say whether it is large or small form?
> It is still not mature, so i do not know if you'll be able to ID it as either.
> Cheers


Large will have a red sheen to it, and small will have purple.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Fascinating read Becky, thanks!

Taxonomy is difficult... Is there not the possibility that, by one school of thought, many avic "species" are one species, variable and with regional changes. The other school of thought says "these are all different species, divide them up and classify them".

Is there a thing for spider taxonomists like there is for plants? Plant taxonomists from all over the world come together every few years to discuss changes to names, older possible descriptions of a species and apparently have a bloody great argument. I would assume that spider taxonomists must have some sort of thing like that where the lumpers and splitters get together and disagree at the tops of their voices before coming to conclusions.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> Fascinating read Becky, thanks!
> 
> Taxonomy is difficult... Is there not the possibility that, by one school of thought, many avic "species" are one species, variable and with regional changes. The other school of thought says "these are all different species, divide them up and classify them".


Thats exactly the problem! Most are the same species but regional varients. Move down the river a few metres and hairs get longer/different colour etc and its then a completely different species.. supposedly. 



> Is there a thing for spider taxonomists like there is for plants? Plant taxonomists from all over the world come together every few years to discuss changes to names, older possible descriptions of a species and apparently have a bloody great argument. I would assume that spider taxonomists must have some sort of thing like that where the lumpers and splitters get together and disagree at the tops of their voices before coming to conclusions.


People put papers together and discuss with other people working on the same thing i guess!


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

^Sounds like murder...

The trick would be working out which ones essentially regional variants: okay to breed together and which ones are closely related species: not such a good idea.

Then of course there's the subspecies and all the people who will call for them not to be bred together to maintain purity etc. There is a point regarding such things, subspecies can go extinct and thats almost as bad as whole species.

Isn't a detailed study of a tanantula's species of often impossible till after death? Males can't really be identified without microscopic examination of emboli yesno? And you can look at a females species through study of the sheds?


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## Peacemaker1987 (May 21, 2009)

Danhalen said:


> Large will have a red sheen to it, and small will have purple.


Roughly how old/what size do they have to be until you can tell?


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> ^Sounds like murder...
> 
> The trick would be working out which ones essentially regional variants: okay to breed together and which ones are closely related species: not such a good idea.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. You can't tell a males species from his emboli unless its been previously described and recorded. I.e huriana looks like this etc Because each genus has a specific shaped bulb, but we'll already know he's Avicularia lol BUT if we find the spermathecae that he fits perfectly, we can assume they're the same species as the bulb is made to fit the female of that species (obviously) But.. bit late when they're dead!! Unless there are live specimens from the same source/eggsac alive... It all gets a bit mad and it probably won't be sorted for years!


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Indeed, that was exactly the problems I could see with it.

So, unless they're from the same sac as one you know, you can't really breed males...


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Except for species like laeta, versicolor, amazonica (from reliable sources), peru purple, purpurea etc

I have a real huriana male here and i know of a real huriana female, so they're going together soon! He's just matured and is huge!!


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

^Yeah, of course  noone's mistake minatix for anything else.

Huriana eh? out of interest, how did you find out the true species of it?


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

I showed him to a taxonomist who's done a lot of work on Avicularia  No idea how he knows but he does :lol:


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Ah, interesting.

The thing is that you could probably slow down a T with cold to look at it but noone wants it coming too while you've got your face right up close to the business end.

Actually, doesn't someone here use a CO2 thing for knocking out 'pedes to examine them? Could that work on a T?


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

Hmmm dunno they breathe differently, with book lungs etc so not sure if that'd work or not. With the pincer grip thing that people use for T's its safe. I bought an adult female 'Aphonopelma caniceps' that i took to see Stuart Longhorn and Ray Gabriel on my monthly visit and he picked her up and had her upside down under the microscope for a few mins, pulling her legs in and out, looking at hairs etc She was good as gold bless her! Turns out she was a Brachypelma schroederi... even better


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Up! Up! Up!

Bumping this thread for everyone who hasn't seen it.


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## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

I vote sticky, I found it quite useful! :no1:
Thank you hedgewitch for bumping and thanks becky for writing


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## Animalmadness (Dec 8, 2009)

very informative it sounds really confusing trying to identify avics


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## Diabolic Al (Mar 12, 2010)

awesome and very interesting thread, thanks for the bump or this would have passed me by.. I'd love to know if Anesthesia is a true Avic Metallica. How do you get hold of a spider taxonomist?...


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Animalmadness said:


> very informative it sounds really confusing trying to identify avics


Indeed, it's not been as bad of late but it'll hopefully lower t he number of people posting pictures of their avic speculating on what type it is... because there's no way of knowing. However people are far too willing to ignore anyone saying "You can't tell" in favour of someone saying its species xyz. Or people referring to _A. avicularia_ because, well you've read the post.


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## ducks (Mar 28, 2010)

this is fascinating.

I had understood (but I am increasingly old and tired and I am sure huge lumps of knowledge are dropping out of my brain to be replaced by random, pointless information) that separate species are very unlikely to be fertile with each other and if they are will produce infertile offspring?

or is that (a) rubbish (b) not true for inverts?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Becky said:


> I showed him to a taxonomist who's done a lot of work on Avicularia  No idea how he knows but he does :lol:


 Out of interest who was this taxonomist?


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

I agree wi1th Baldpoodle he's always right...


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## brownj6709 (Jan 26, 2010)

My sub adult female avic was just sold as a 'pink toe' god knows what its classified as now lol im just going with sp. guyana.:2thumb:


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## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

Why hasn't this been made a sticky yet?
I reckon it's pretty good


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

My plague said:


> Why hasn't this been made a sticky yet?
> I reckon it's pretty good


I don't know, however I doubt it would make any difference... no one _ever_ reads the stickies, if they did we'd have about a third as many posts here :lol2:


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## My plague (Aug 15, 2009)

Hedgewitch said:


> I don't know, however I doubt it would make any difference... no one _ever_ reads the stickies, if they did we'd have about a third as many posts here :lol2:


Suppose


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

mcluskyisms said:


> I agree wi1th Baldpoodle he's always right...


hey great my first very own internet stalker:roll:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

brownj6709 said:


> My sub adult female avic was just sold as a 'pink toe' god knows what its classified as now lol im just going with sp. guyana.:2thumb:


and therein lies the problem. Most often the reason its sold as pink toe is because they have no way of knowing what it is. Also the sp. is merely an identifier its not classed as a species but a way of identifying where it was found/who found it etc.

If you have any doubt to the correct ID you shouldn't consider breeding it or selling it as a particular species.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

My plague said:


> Why hasn't this been made a sticky yet?
> I reckon it's pretty good


Because no-body has reported it and asked, and secondly because the original post straight from the (expert) horse's mouth is on another forum. Becky's article is a summary of that original post, so it makes sense moreso to me to have a link to that post rather than stickying this summary page. It's not a slur on this article, it;s just that the original one seems a more sensible article to sticky or link to.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> If you have any doubt to the correct ID you shouldn't consider breeding it


I can see no real reason what so ever why not to breed it.


Poxicator said:


> or selling it as a particular species


But I agree you shouldn't sell any offspring as a particular species.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

hybridising is the reason, but obviously that's where we'll differ in our opinions.
Even if its successful, without proper ID you'll not even know what you've been successful at.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> hey great my first very own internet stalker:roll:


There maybe a slight bit of sarcasm intended in the original quote no?

:whistling2:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> hybridising is the reason, but obviously that's where we'll differ in our opinions.


sorry I don't follow. why would hybridising be a reason for not hybridising? 


> Even if its successful, without proper ID you'll not even know what you've been successful at.


sure you would. You would know that you have bred two Avic spp. (if they were both different sp. to begin with).


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> sorry I don't follow. why would hybridising be a reason for not hybridising?


Conservation? And why hybridise?



> sure you would. You would know that you have bred two Avic spp. (if they were both different sp. to begin with).


You'd also have bred two spiders, you know what he means.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> Conservation? And why hybridise?


Conservation? I don't see the link here. Why hybridise?....purely for fun and to see if you can. And that is also my reasons for breeding spiders,full stop.



Hedgewitch said:


> You'd also have bred two spiders, you know what he means.


 Well no I don't because like I said you will know you have bred possibly two unknown Avic spp.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

TBH I don't see that it matters. It's not like these "hybrid" pet Avics are ever going to be returned to the wild to "contaminate" the gene pool.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm a believer that before you can bend the rules you have to know what the rules are.
In the case of Avics we have a right old mess, so why add to that mess? I can think of plenty of arguments for not doing so, argued it lots of times on various forums. The only reason I see for hybridising is people's curiosity. Nobody seems to come up with a stronger argument than that and most people that argue for doing so do not produce their findings, usually because they don't have the full information to hand when they start.
Conservation I believe is a false argument when its used in relation to the wild. But I believe we have a duty to conserve what's in the hobby, because by doing so we discourage taking from their natural habitat and I expect over time most countries will stop the steady flow of exotics from their land. We will no longer have the source and if we taint what we have in the hobby then we only have ourselves to blame for a bunch of mixed up infertile tarantula.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I'm a believer that before you can bend the rules you have to know what the rules are.


I don't believe in rules in regards to what you can or can not try and breed in tarantula hobby.


> In the case of Avics we have a right old mess, so why add to that mess?


If this is from a taxonomy stand point then I fail to see any problem. Also unless buyers are complete idiots (yes I know there are many) then I fail to see a problem either.


> The only reason I see for hybridising is people's curiosity.


yes and I think that reason alone is just as good as any that given for not doing it.


> Nobody seems to come up with a stronger argument than that and most people that argue for doing so do not produce their findings, usually because they don't have the full information to hand when they start.


But the thing is all there findings would most likely amount to is that they bred an Avic sp. If it is just for personal fun and curiosity why should anyone publish their findings? I bet there are even alot more people who don't publish their findings in regards to same specie breedings. How do you mean full information? just the orginal specie names?


> Conservation I believe is a false argument when its used in relation to the wild.But I believe we have a duty to conserve what's in the hobby, because by doing so we discourage taking from their natural habitat and I expect over time most countries will stop the steady flow of exotics from their land.


I agree


> We will no longer have the source and if we taint what we have in the hobby then we only have ourselves to blame for a bunch of mixed up infertile tarantula.


I see no reason why anyone who wants to keep their species "pure" should not be able to do so unless they are complete idiots. Not sure why they would all be infertile but if they were I think there is even less of a problem.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I think I'll refer to this:



Poxicator said:


> ...obviously that's where we'll differ in our opinions.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> I think I'll refer to this:


 Ok not a problem. dissapointing, but not a problem.


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## exopet (Apr 20, 2007)

not wanting to re-start an obvious disagreement, but...

The genus Avic as stated is is disarray with many species / subspecies / regional variants looking much like each other, therefore 'any idiot' will not know what species they have specifically and cannot know for certain whether or not they will hybridise species or not.

if hybridisation occurs then when they finally become endangered and protected we won't have a clue what the hell is in the hobby due to most of them being either infertile hybrids or impure bloodlines.

even seemingly obvious species can be sold as other species by un-knowledgeable shops and dealers, (I bought A. juruensis as avic avic!!)

(I know this was juruensis as all 3 species of yellow bandeds have diagnostic fovea, although she was a little large (7 3/4" legspan).)


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

I think since nobody has any real grasp of how variable the natural populations are and what constitutes a species or a regional varient or simply natural variation it's a tricky subject. 

I don't think it matters if the material is kept well labelled and recorded. It's something that happens all the time with plants and so long as records are kept with the date, "species" and the details of the cross then it's usually possible to figure out what you have (for example, if species are synonymised or split years afterwards, or properly described). 

However, since a lot of people in the hobby just rely on what it's sold as without keying things out, it could cause very much more complicated issues than what is happening right now with people with "named species". However, if hybrids were kept as hybrids as a sort of sub hobby pool then perhaps problems would not be severe. 

And as Lisa said, the hobby material is not going to be used for conservation purposes unless the situation is really dire, and certainly the researchers are not going to simply rely on the "ID" given by whomever supplies the animal before releasing. 

Then again, I see hybridisation as a bit pointless since even if you hybridise successfully, all you can say without detailed genetics knowledge is that such and such can breed successfully. It'd be far better IMO to be able to examine specific sexual traits and how they are controlled, using hybrids (traits like how mating barriers between Avic species are controlled and function).


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> The genus Avic as stated is is disarray with many species / subspecies / regional variants looking much like each other, therefore 'any idiot' will not know what species they have specifically and cannot know for certain whether or not they will hybridise species or not


very true.


> if hybridisation occurs then when they finally become endangered and protected we won't have a clue what the hell is in the hobby due to most of them being either infertile hybrids or impure bloodlines.


If you want to keep species as "pure" as possible the only way to go is keep species that come in with imports completely seperate from other species that come in on other imports even if they look the same. I would go so far as to label a imported Avic species with a date and import ID number along with the country where they were imported from. I know this happens to some extent already but I see no reason why it couldn't happen accross the board.
A large problem however is the fact that not all the avics/spiders even, that get exported come with any real collection data, so still you may not have the same species in a same import.
The next step is to get to KNOW who brought from the same import and from then on only swap males etc, with them until a good breeding stock is created. This way offspring can be given batch numbers with a history going back to the original import number.
Sure it may sound a bit complicated and hard work but I really don't think it would be if people are so serious about trying to keep pure blood avics and many other genus in the hobby.


> even seemingly obvious species can be sold as other species by un-knowledgeable shops and dealers, (I bought A. juruensis as avic avic!!)


Again this is where the getting to KNOW the other buyers of a certin import can come in handy.



> (I know this was juruensis as all 3 species of yellow bandeds have diagnostic fovea, although she was a little large (7 3/4" legspan).)


honesty this is part of the problem because there is no way I would accept your ID based just on that. This is a prime example of why a mess exsists as there is hardly anyone compareing hobby specimens to type material etc which especially for Avics I think is important before putting a species name on it.



> I think since nobody has any real grasp of how variable the natural populations are and what constitutes a species or a regional varient or simply natural variation it's a tricky subject.


Absolutly which is why if you want to keep your species pure you have to seperate your imports regardless if they were imported from the same place. Remember a place of export is not the same as a place of collection. 


> I don't think it matters if the material is kept well labelled and recorded. It's something that happens all the time with plants and so long as records are kept with the date, "species" and the details of the cross then it's usually possible to figure out what you have (for example, if species are synonymised or split years afterwards, or properly described).


I totally agree it is not a really hard task if a little work is put in.


> However, since a lot of people in the hobby just rely on what it's sold as without keying things out, it could cause very much more complicated issues than what is happening right now with people with "named species". However, if hybrids were kept as hybrids as a sort of sub hobby pool then perhaps problems would not be severe.


Where as I agree overall with your point I do think that to expect everyone to even know how to key out a species is asking a lot. It is not something I can do with ease if I could at all even, I can asure you. This is why I suggest this batch/import numbering as then you can match your species to the batch/import numbers with out being a complete anorak. If you are anal about keeping your species pure just don't breed with any species when the numbers don't match. All the rest just treat as hybrids.


> And as Lisa said, the hobby material is not going to be used for conservation purposes unless the situation is really dire, and certainly the researchers are not going to simply rely on the "ID" given by whomever supplies the animal before releasing.


In all honestly any researcher/taxonomist that uses "hobby material" in their discriptions it is not worth reading the discription paper as far as I can see.


> Then again, I see hybridisation as a bit pointless since even if you hybridise successfully, all you can say without detailed genetics knowledge is that such and such can breed successfully. It'd be far better IMO to be able to examine specific sexual traits and how they are controlled, using hybrids (traits like how mating barriers between Avic species are controlled and function).


In a scientiffic aspect sure it may be a pointless thing to do, but from a hobby stand point it is just another fun thing to try. Even if any results end with infertile offspring (which is no way a for gone conclusion) it matters not. For me tarantula keeping is about my own personal fun and not about trying to make the next big discovery.


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## Tavor21 (May 24, 2010)

Why cant the scientists start from the beginning because the ordinal person who first discovered avicularia genus was totally on crack. So why don't they get species we know are true species such as :avicularia versicolor, avicularia amazonica, avicularia latea, avicularia purpurea, avicularia diversipes etc then part by part study each sp. then name them there name.


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## Elaine R (Feb 2, 2008)

Not as easy a task as it sounds and without the original type specimen to compare to its made even more difficult.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Elaine R said:


> Not as easy a task as it sounds and without the original type specimen to compare to its made even more difficult.


May I ask you a quick question Elaine, How do you find A.Diversipes to breed if you have?

: victory:


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## Christie&Spence (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks for this. Its very informative.


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## Elaine R (Feb 2, 2008)

mcluskyisms said:


> May I ask you a quick question Elaine, How do you find A.Diversipes to breed if you have?
> 
> : victory:


I have only gotten to the point of mating with the A. diversipes mate. My female died shortly afterwards.

Mating is pretty straight forward and I found them to be very tolerant so was able to leave the male in with the female. The guy I bought mine from as slings left the male and female cohabiting for approx 6 weeks and had a sac within 6-8weeks after if my memory is correct.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

My diversipes have been together since March, still no joy even after introducing a 2nd male. The slings of this species are supposed to be extremely fragile.

There is a Brazilian woman, Fukushima, looking into the taxonomy of Avics at the moment, she's responsible for the recent diversipes re-classification.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> My diversipes have been together since March, still no joy even after introducing a 2nd male. The slings of this species are supposed to be extremely fragile.
> 
> There is a Brazilian woman, Fukushima, looking into the taxonomy of Avics at the moment, she's responsible for the recent diversipes re-classification.


Yes Ive heard a little bit about the reclassification, apparently the males have tibial spurs upon maturity???


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## Elaine R (Feb 2, 2008)

mcluskyisms said:


> Yes Ive heard a little bit about the reclassification, apparently the males have tibial spurs upon maturity???


Yes, they do have tibial spurs


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