# Warning!!! Skunk Fatality :*(



## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

With regret I am having to post a second warning about breeding skunks and it is again related to female aggression.

We have just found Stella dead. For those who don't know her, she is the daughter of our Bear & Koko and the family have been living together in harmony since Stella was weaned in April. 

Without going into graphic detail because I will never get the image out of my head as it is, Stella sustained some serious head injuries. She had been savagely attacked by her mother who was seen mating back in August so we believe is due to give birth to her second litter of the year. 

I don't want to cause mass panic and I know that various people have been keeping females together but this is just a warning because I can't see this happen to somebody else because I didn't say anything.

I feel that what happened to me was because Stella was Koko's daughter and she was trying force her out of the way before she had her next litter but Stella had nowhere to go because the second part of the enclosure the skunks have been living in is sealed off to protect the expected kits.

Even if nobody else has a mother and daughter together - at least take this as warning of how suddenly a female can turn. 

I don't know if this would have happened to an unrelated female, I don't have enough information but I for one will never keep a maturing kit with its mother again.

I have removed Bear for his safety but he has not been bitten and was actually in the nest box with Koko - he was also present at the last birth and although kicked out of the birthing box - there was no aggression toward him from Koko. 

I am sorry if this sounds all matter of fact but we only found Stella a while ago so I am still in shock to be honest. 

Cat or anyone else who wants to sling mud at me again for putting up a warning - dont bother. I am not trying to dissuade people from breeding skunks - I am just sharing this info so people can make informed choices and not suffer like I am at losing a skunk they raised themselves.


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

thats so sad 

im sorry this happened to your skunk, i know im not a regular to this part of the forum (not a posting regular anyway) but please accept my condolences anyway, dont blame yourself, from what i read you always do the best for your pets and you couldnt of known that koko would act this way

one again im very sorry for your loss


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

so sorry to hear this xxx


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

very sorry to hear this, thank you for posting so others can learn from what must have been an awful experience.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

first of all sorry to hear that caz, with us havin a recent loss i know what its like and you have our sympathy.
secondly, this is totally different to the other thread you put up, you advised people not to breed skunks in the home and leave it to the farms, yet when i asked you if you were goin to breed again you said you didnt know.... and then here you are expecting kits which i thought was hypocritical, and i was honest about that. You are free to breed whatever you want, i have nothin against the breeding of skunks in the home and may breed dice at some point, but please dont advise others to not do something when you intend on continuing doing it yourself, thats always been my point.

Your warning about this is much appreciated. and a lot of people wouldnt have posted about it so you have my respect for that. I do wish though that you wouldnt single me out, as i wasnt the only one who thought you were hypocritical last time, i just may have been the only one to voice it 

again, sorry for your loss


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## LyddicleaveBurrow (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm so, so sorry to hear of Stella's death. She was such a special character.

I am so sorry for your loss - you must be totally gutted at losing such a treasured member of your animal family.

The fact that you have shared your sad loss may mean that others don't have to face the heartache that you are going through tonight.

Thinking of you at this very sad time.

Heather.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Whilst I am sorry to hear this I am also glad to see the post to highlight the dangers one skunk can pose to another. Males and females can also kill (and can do so pretty savagely).

The uncle of ours killed a potential mate a while back and due to our findings we spent a lot of time with the breeder (and others) looking into groups of skunks and what they can do to one another.

Good post and thanks for putting it up. Once again, sorry for your loss. From reading your posts on this and the exotics forum I know your care deeply for your creatures.

Best wishes.

Peter


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Thankyou for everyone's kind words. Nothing will bring Stella back but it is nice to know she might save another skunk from the same fate.

To clarify the information, Cat, I did say before that I would come back on the thread and update after Koko had the litter and apologies that I didn't. Her behaviour went 100% back to normal once the litter were about 5 weeks old, at which point I decided to continue breeding. I was previously told that her aggression would stick like that for good and I was warning others that it was possible their breeding females might change. 

But it isn't true - there doesnt seem to be anything more savage than a skunk with litter, hence so many people have had destroyed litters and hence Stella has been attacked and killed out of the blue - BUT they do return to their normal selves. Koko is an amazing mother and this has been my mistake, not hers 


Thanks again for all the posts :grouphug:


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## Lucy_ (Jul 9, 2008)

Shit Caz, I am so sorry to hear this!! 
Hope you are as ok as can be hun.

Lucy x


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Going slightly off subject but in no way an attack just a curiosity of mine what's the resting period for a female skunk between litters? Could koko having 2 litters within 6-8 months of eachother not cause her to be more aggressive than usual? Also was Stella spayed or going to be? As I would have thought having her living with her father you would be running the risk of 1 Stella having kits way too young and 2 inbreeding? Unless 6 months is ok for a female to breed at or breedin daughter to father is acceptable in skunks as it is in rabbits? Again I'm askin for my info as I don't know enough about it, though I will research it if and when I decide to breed.

Could koko have seen her as a threat? I'm not sure if females know when one is spayed or not, like neutering males calms them, does that make sense? Then again it could have been a total freak accident and maybe koko would have still done it even if she wasn't pregnant. Either way it's a horrible way to learn and as I said before, you have my greatest sympathy for that 



Pouchie said:


> Thankyou for everyone's kind words. Nothing will bring Stella back but it is nice to know she might save another skunk from the same fate.
> 
> To clarify the information, Cat, I did say before that I would come back on the thread and update after Koko had the litter and apologies that I didn't. Her behaviour went 100% back to normal once the litter were about 5 weeks old, at which point I decided to continue breeding. I was previously told that her aggression would stick like that for good and I was warning others that it was possible their breeding females might change.
> 
> ...


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Soo sorry to hear that Caz, such a shame and thankyou for the warning, even though im not sure what to do about breeding it must be devastating,  xx


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## supakimmy13 (Oct 22, 2009)

I dnt really come in this part of the forum, well post anyway as i dnt have any exotic animals but i saw this thread n had to leave a post, I'm so sorry for ur loss but i think its great that u r advising others of the possible fatalities that could happen to make them aware even if it is under these infortunate circumstances. My condolances (spelling??) to u n all the best for the future with the other skunks x


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## karl 1996 (Oct 22, 2009)

*sorry to hear this*

sorry to hear this sad news m8 you have my sympothy


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## Stacey010884 (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm very sorry for the loss of Stella. It's so random and sudden though. I mean like many of us here who watched the mating vid, all seemed well then. They didn't even seem to bat an eyelid that Stella was running around while they "made babies".
I'm sorry that this lesson had to be learned the very hard way but like you, I hope this saves others the same fate.

Rest in peace Stella


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## africajohn (Oct 8, 2008)

Condolences from us all Caz. RIP Stella xx


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Thankyou John - and everyone else for your wishes .


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## JungleExotics (Oct 8, 2009)

sorry to butt in but i would like this question answered if possible as i think its a very important question to ask??
The skunk could have been impregnated by her father as my as one of my skunks started to mature very early (just under 5 months).



xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> Going slightly off subject but in no way an attack just a curiosity of mine what's the resting period for a female skunk between litters? Could koko having 2 litters within 6-8 months of eachother not cause her to be more aggressive than usual? Also was Stella spayed or going to be? As I would have thought having her living with her father you would be running the risk of 1 Stella having kits way too young and 2 inbreeding? Unless 6 months is ok for a female to breed at or breedin daughter to father is acceptable in skunks as it is in rabbits? Again I'm askin for my info as I don't know enough about it, though I will research it if and when I decide to breed.
> 
> Could koko have seen her as a threat? I'm not sure if females know when one is spayed or not, like neutering males calms them, does that make sense? Then again it could have been a total freak accident and maybe koko would have still done it even if she wasn't pregnant. Either way it's a horrible way to learn and as I said before, you have my greatest sympathy for that


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

I will answer that as reasonably as I can under the circumstances... my little girl just died in a horrific way and I am just trying to put a warning up here for people. So with due respect if you would like to know how many times a skunk can breed each year or at what age they can have their first litter then why not start yourself a thread and ask?


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## ferret lady (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. 

While I don't breed skunks, I do breed hybrid ferrets (polecat/ferret crosses). They tend to react as polecats would in similar circumstances, so my pregnant jills are separated from their cagemates (usually a daugahter) and put into a whelping cage in a room by themselves no later than the end of the 4th week. 

I'd wonder if Stella's death was the result of extreme stress to Koko by having to share her den and living quarters at a time that she would have instinctively needed privacy. She may have been willing to at least tolerate her mate at that time, but having to share her living quarters with another female (even her daughter) clearly raised her stress level to the point that she acted as she would have in the wild. 

I don't mean this as a criticism, but I think it would be wise for skunk breeders to research how pregnant skunks live in the wild and use that as a guide.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> I will answer that as reasonably as I can under the circumstances... my little girl just died in a horrific way and I am just trying to put a warning up here for people. So with due respect if you would like to know how many times a skunk can breed each year or at what age they can have their first litter then why not start yourself a thread and ask?


I think they're asking more about the risk of inbreeding keeping Stella and bear together rather than at what age a skunk can breed at . 

Going back to the original subject I've been talking to nerys about this and she thinks it's a definate possibility that koko didn't kill Stella and that Stella could have died of other causes. Apparently it's common for skunks to eat the dead starting from the head. Seen asstella didn't have any other injuries or none that caz has mentioned this could be what happened. Nerys has known of several cases of this happening and a pm has shown that the injuries sustained to the head have happened after death.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i see dead skunks almost daily... road kill.

some keep them... it's rare though...


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## carlycharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> Apparently it's common for skunks to eat the dead starting from the head. Seen asstella didn't have any other injuries or none that caz has mentioned this could be what happened. Nerys has known of several cases of this happening and a pm has shown that the injuries sustained to the head have happened after death.


 
If they had been eating her, would the signs indicating these be rather obvious as opposed to just fight wounds/injuries? What I am saying is if they had started to eat her then I am sure they would probably not stop unless disturbed, thus the appearance on the body would be much more gruesome??

Also, if attacked would there be more blood loss & thus blood clotting on the fur at the site of the injury, whereas being eaten I would assume less blood flowing as the body was already lifeless & heart not pumping etc?

I have already said to Pouchie that unless the whole incident was witnessed it is only an assumption (made on the well known fact that pregnant females can (not always) get very aggressive)that it was mum/Koko to blame - if Stella had started coming into season early (her mum did) then Bear/Dad could also have been to blame.

Or alternatively a scrap broke out over food & Stella sadly lost - skunks can be very aggressive over food as I am sure all skunk keepers with more than 1 animal know.

At the end of the day we could sit all day surmising over the situation, but the fact of the matter is with regret Stella is no longer with us & this post will provide valuable insight & info for people already with or intending in getting skunks; especially those who think they might want to breed them at home.

I for one am saddened by the loss as I knew Stella from only weeks old have had the pleasure of spending time in her company (as did my 2 females), plus I am also impressed with Pouchie for posting this on RFUK, knowing she would get some back lash even though she was trying to make people aware of possible dangers.

RIP Stella, go run free with your little brother Diablo.


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## JungleExotics (Oct 8, 2009)

sorry i just wanted to know why you were keeping a near sexually mature female with her father as the chances of inbreeding and breeding too young was too great a risk i personally would'nt have took.
i wasnt after skunk breeding info just found a question i was interested in that had been 'passed' over and not answered.




Pouchie said:


> I will answer that as reasonably as I can under the circumstances... my little girl just died in a horrific way and I am just trying to put a warning up here for people. So with due respect if you would like to know how many times a skunk can breed each year or at what age they can have their first litter then why not start yourself a thread and ask?


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Ken- caz may have found Stella just as they had started so they may not have had time to get very far. Also these are nerys' thoughts not mine. She did say the blood would be different on a pm so you would be able to establish whether she had died prior to the injuries or not. Can't remember exactly what she said as my phone is upstairs. As for you being impressed that caz has posted about this cos she would get stick about it why would she? Also I don't see that she's got stick about it from anyone



JungleExotics said:


> sorry i just wanted to know why you were keeping a near sexually mature female with her father as the chances of inbreeding and breeding too young was too great a risk i personally would'nt have took.
> i wasnt after skunk breeding info just found a question i was interested in that had been 'passed' over and not answered.


Jungle- my questions generally do get passed over by caz as she always thinks I'm having a go.

Oh and jungle spoken to a couple of people who said resting period between skunk litters is recommended to be 12 months, so no need to start your own thread :lol2:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

JungleExotics said:


> sorry i just wanted to know why you were keeping a near sexually mature female with her father as the chances of inbreeding and breeding too young was too great a risk i personally would'nt have took.
> i wasnt after skunk breeding info just found a question i was interested in that had been 'passed' over and not answered.


It was duly 'passed over' because it has got nothing to do with anyone else. If you insist on my explaining breeding daughter back to father, one litter was planned with relation to learning more about colour genetics and the kits would have stayed here with me because as anybody who knows me would testify, all of my breeding is geared toward conservation and genetic diversity so the last thing I would do is sell on 'inbred' kits if that was your concern.

As far as your comments about breeding too young ... Skunks do not come out of season unless mated and I am pretty sure they don't go to the vets in the wild and book themselves in for a jill jab. Most wild skunks have a litter by the time they are 1. Stella was 9 months old already and not even in season yet so you do the math. 

Same goes for the 'resting period' crap. Koko has had a second season 10 months after the last one and it happens to be in the same calendar year that she will have kits again - this point is just mud slinging again and has no merit. It is just meant to question my breeding ethics which is ludicrous. If it is not about the skunks and it is clearly people being jealous or having a chip on their shoulder I haven't got time for it. 

This thread is not supposed to be about me or my breeding efforts - its not up for discussion. I have only answered these questions because they have now been asked three times and are detracting from the reason I gave this information about what happened here. 

As for those who believe Stella died beforehand for some bizarre reason - you did not see the body so it seems a bizarre conclusion to make. I did not SEE it happen but it was plainly obvious that Stella had been grabbed by the head and ragged. I can tell the difference between a set of deep puncture marks and something having been partially eaten!

Out of respect for Stella I think the discussion should end here, there isnt anything else to say and quite frankly it is too upsetting for me to be asked these kinds of things right now while I am still grieving for her.

Sorry.


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## carlycharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> Ken- caz may have found Stella just as they had started so they may not have had time to get very far. Also these are nerys' thoughts not mine. She did say the blood would be different on a pm so you would be able to establish whether she had died prior to the injuries or not. Can't remember exactly what she said as my phone is upstairs. As for you being impressed that caz has posted about this cos she would get stick about it why would she? Also I don't see that she's got stick about it from anyone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably because most posts on this forum end up in some sort of back lash and I know she could have easily not posted on RFUK at all, especially as there are personality clashes with certain members and posts often end up going off topic because of it.

My reply was not aimed at questioning anyone one person, just more of asking questions about the info provided......trying to work out possibilities, reasoning & evidence that might give a clearer picture to what actually happened.

One of the problems that is becoming apparent is knowing if a skunk is pregnant or not.....especially with them being able to delay things......so, even if they are seen mating there is no guarantee that babies will follow. So, does this mean once mated they should then be kept apart? Not always easy in a home environment unless you have built special pens in readiness. Also keeping offspring with parents - maybe not a wise idea going by this sad death?? There is so much we yet don't understand with keeping & breeding many exotics, not just skunks....and the whole breeding issue is certainly NOT very straightforward :gasp:


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

carlycharlie said:


> So, does this mean once mated they should then be kept apart? Not always easy in a home environment unless you have built special pens in readiness. Also keeping offspring with parents - maybe not a wise idea going by this sad death?? There is so much we yet don't understand with keeping & breeding many exotics, not just skunks....and the whole breeding issue is certainly NOT very straightforward :gasp:


i guess the message is, if you don't have the room to seperate a breeding female from any other animals in your house, don''t breed your skunks.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

carlycharlie said:


> If they had been eating her, would the signs indicating these be rather obvious as opposed to just fight wounds/injuries? What I am saying is if they had started to eat her then I am sure they would probably not stop unless disturbed, thus the appearance on the body would be much more gruesome??
> 
> Also, if attacked would there be more blood loss & thus blood clotting on the fur at the site of the injury, whereas being eaten I would assume less blood flowing as the body was already lifeless & heart not pumping etc?
> 
> ...


 
I totally agree with all said ken i went through everything with caz too through pm 

no one is ever going to know exactly what happened without it being witnessed 

Caz has been very brave in putting a warning out there for other multiple skunk owners 

RIP lil stella look after your lil brother Diablo :flrt:


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

Resting period crap? So are you saying that if a skunk came into season only a few months after weaning her last kits (if coming into season can happen that quick )then she should have another litter? It must be a lot for her body to take in such a small space of time. Just cos she's come into season doesn't mean she should be bred again. From finishin weaning to now being due for another lot has only been 6 months. Though my original point of her being pregnant was actually relevant to your original post as it was being discussed why koko might have done this- to which I asked if she had seen her as a threat? Or maybe her hormones were still up the spout from her last lot- as I said earlier I don't know that much about breeding though I don't claim to- it was merely a possibilty I put forward as to why this happened.

Also her dying before isn't as bizarre as you think, yes we didn't see the wounds but you also didn't see what happened so pretty much anythin was possible. I'm assuming you weren't in the house at the time as I would have thought if it was an attack you would have heard something. 

I won't come back on this thread again as it's obvious you think i'm attacking you. I will say this though- if the subject or the possible what ifs weren't up for discussion then you should have posted in the rip section and not the chat section. I've said it once but I'll say it again I always have and always will have the greatest sympathy for you and your loss

Sleep well Stella


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> Resting period crap? So are you saying that if a skunk came into season only a few months after weaning her last kits (if coming into season can happen that quick )then she should have another litter? It must be a lot for her body to take in such a small space of time. Just cos she's come into season doesn't mean she should be bred again. From finishin weaning to now being due for another lot has only been 6 months. Though my original point of her being pregnant was actually relevant to your original post as it was being discussed why koko might have done this- to which I asked if she had seen her as a threat.
> 
> Also her dying before isn't as bizarre as you think, yes we didn't see the wounds but you also didn't see what happened so pretty much anythin was possible. I'm assuming you weren't in the house at the time as I would have thought if it was an attack you would have heard something.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with you, and it is clear you are passionate about skunks and their care, which is great

but....

your posts come across as very accusatory. 

It is clear you have had several disagreements with the OP and I think considering how upset she must be right now you could find another time or perhaps make another thread to voice concerns arising from this unfortunate death. someone is grieving here.

sorry to hear of your loss Pouchie, thank you for using it to educate others. I am sure you will take into consideration concerns being voiced here once you have come to terms with losing Stella.


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## mrsTeegsta (Feb 26, 2009)

hey im very sorry to hear of your loss im new to keeping a skunk i never want to have to see what you did hunni  i dont want to intrude on you thread but could u please tell me how i will know when she is in season and does it matter about age wen getting them done i dont want to bread her as im not very confident in that way and would want to do anything wrong as i couldnt stand the loss again very sorry to hear that hope the babys go well n koko is doing well 

R.I.P STELLA YOU WILL BE MISSED


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

Another thread gone do lally with people having a go at the OP.


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## Rie xx (Nov 20, 2008)

I do believe freedom of speech comes in here!! If the OP is going to put a thread up and admit to inbreeding i don't think anything else can be expected!! 
Breeders often practice inbreeding to "fix" desirable charactheristics within a population..
But then is it also fair to put a mother through having pups born with tumours, internal problems!! Is it fair on the pups!!


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Rie xx said:


> If the OP is going to put a thread up and admit to inbreeding i don't think anything else can be expected!!


 
You breed animals do you not? A little startling then that you do not know the difference between inbreeding and line breeding :whistling2:


Sure I don't need to repeat this for anybody elses benefit, but for you I will explain once more that Stella was to be allowed one litter by her father ("line" breeding) for the purposes of learning what colours my skunks carry. However this is no business of yours or anybody elses because I did not intend to sell the kits. 

I am the founder of CENSR, the Central Exotic & Non Native Species Registry. If you were familiar with CENSR and how hard I work to maintain genetic diversity you would realise how ludicrous your silly comments really are. 

If you are already well aware that I breed responsibly and just felt like making me defend myself.. well done, give yourself a pat on the back : victory:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Pouchie 

you gave us a warning of something bad that has happened to you 

all i can do is take my hat off to you for that 


NOT many people would do what pouchie did for the sake of others in the future 


FOR GOD SAKE THIS WAS a RIP thread for poor stella 

leave everything else the hell a well alone 

if you have a problem make another thread and bare it there :notworthy:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks Em. 

My fault for rising to it but I still miss Stella a lot and its a bit emotive but I agree. I suggested earlier in the thread if people want to discuss breeding perhaps it could go in another thread.

This one should probably be locked now it was only meant to be a warning post and everyone must have seen it now.


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