# Do you believe?



## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Well, there has been plenty of talk over the last few weeks about the Animal Welfare Act and the long term implications of it on the hobby. So i was just wondering how much of a threat people think there is to the hobby and its future, do you believe it is destined to die because of the anti's, or is it aload of nonsence?

Also, have the recent threads opened your eyes and make you realise there is a threat, have you always thought there was a theat, or do you think there isnt a treat and never will be.


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Well, in over 24 hours this thread has been viewed 100 times and had 16 votes, compared to this thead www.reptileforums.co.uk/off-topic-adult-18/51818-rate.html which was started just after this one, has been viewed 818 times and had 47 votes! 

It would be nice to get more votes in to see how people feel.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Just saw that, and i thought 100 view and no replies WTF?

Deffo a pro, and there *is* a threat, but i cannot honestly see the Anti's winning tbh


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Cheers Dan. : victory:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I have known there was a threat since the last time this all came up but it went on for a few weeks then all died down, not because the risks were going, just because before I believe the campaign wasnt really moving forward it seemed like it was going around in circles and I think people got bored of that, this time I see more happening, I think this is a good forum to combat it just because of the amount of visitors, and Rory is a very outspoken person, in a good way, who helps to motivate and keep it fresh in peoples minds, but having said that time will tell if this time its more successful.

To be honest its hard for me personally to judge how big a problem it is, I regularly read through the threads and keep up to date with whats happening but I dont really know how realistic it is that the hobby will get banned, or severly restricted, its hard to know whats going to happen in the future, but I think its safer to look on the negative side more because it helps keep people motivated and on their toes.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> Just saw that, and i thought 100 view and no replies WTF?
> 
> Deffo a pro, and there *is* a threat, but i cannot honestly see the Anti's winning tbh


Agreed, but I do think it won't be a case of total victory for either side of the debate. There have been/are indications that they may ban/pass restrictions on the keeping of some genus/species/classes of reptiles, such as a ban on _Cyclura_ being kept in private hands and large boids such as retics/burms etc. being put on the DWAL.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

dont raelly understand anyone care to explainto lil old me?


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## jamie_coxon (Jul 18, 2007)

is this like rspca trying to get reps banned and when you read about boy been eaten by burm and stuffin papers?


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

It would be wrong of me to try to summarise the events and acts that have led to these discussions, mainly as i only just about understand them myself, and i wouldnt want to get it wrong.

This thread is where it all started on this forum, and is probably the best place to start reading. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/29245-important.html

Then following the cancellation of the Exeter Reptile Expo at the last minute, Chris Newman, chairman of the FBH started this thread http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/49053-important-reptile-shows-law.html which resulted in alot of people asking questions and offering help.

The rest of the threads in this section will add info to these 2, and will help to understand hopefully.

I know its alot of reading, but its probably the best way to understand it for yourself.


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Well I know I will still be keeping Snakes in 10 years if I choose too, So I am not worried and certainly not losing any sleep over it.:smile:


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

But do you think we will still be able to keep the types of snakes we can no, or will we be restricted to corns, milksnakes, royals, kings etc, as burms, boas, retics etc will be banned for the average private hobbyist?


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Any chance of getting a few more votes please, just to try and gauge what the general view is as much as possible. 

There is a reason to this!


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I believe there to be a threat.. voted the second option by the way.

I also find it suprising that out of the 37 votes ,13 of them said they knew there was a threat already.

I consider the fact that how the smoking ban happned...and was allowed to [no i dont wana get into it, just stating my opinion] by the public.. including ppl on this forum... that nothing is for certain and that anything can and may be taken from us.

However..i much prefer ppl who are just simply fair, and liberal.. about everything and everyones rights to do as they wish [within reason] and unfortunetly i think most ppl... are sheep.. eithe ron the left side or the right.. and due to this I feel anything that the governemnt decides they want to eliminate..will be eliminated regardless of what we do.. simply cos more people simply argue for what they want.. rather than what is just and fair.

banning a harmless hobby would be unjust and unfair..and very unecesary.. yet it may happen..cos apparently a ban doesnt need to have moral merit to go ahead and be suported... by herp keepers and non herp keepers alike.

I can only relate to ppl who are simply for freedom of any kind, not just when its related to what they want.. and i find it hard to see these people around wherever I look.. so the chances of those ppl defending our hobby? I really dont know but i dont think its all that likely.. 
I for one will do my best to find these people ,whetehr they are rep keepers themselves or not.. and I will do my best to make sure justice and what is right... and fair..wins...this time round.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

I wrote this for something else but it might just help create some discussion here.
Sorry it's a bit long winded 
Gordon

*Immediate ban on keeping reptiles*
*Is it likely to happen?*
There has been a lot of discussion in recent weeks/months over the likely hood of DEFRA banning the keeping of reptiles at some point in the future. Many say this will never happen while others feel it’s arrival is imminent. Personally I feel there is a third option and it seems to me that it is already creeping up on us, almost unnoticed..
Lets take a quick trip back in time to fifteen years ago. The majority of people were unaware of Antis and many of us were happy to work with and donate too the RSPCA. We had the luxury of fifteen to twenty shows each year with attendances in the high hundreds and often over the thousand mark. That’s because we knew if a show was advertised, it would take place unhindered by petty local bureaucracy that had been wound up by animal rights activists.. If you wanted to buy a snake from some one at the other end of the country you had a choice of reasonably priced couriers including larger companies like Amtrak. Apart from a few animals listed on article tens and a few others listed on the DWAA most animals could be kept without a need for special permits or proof that they were captive bred. I’m not sure how many clubs were around but certainly there was a lot more than now. 
Ok, so back to the present (sorry) 
Most people are very much aware of the Antis, stand three herpers in a pub for ten minutes and the topic of Antis will come up. Most people refuse to work with or donate to the RSPCA and many good keepers with large collections live in fear of finding one of their jobs-worths standing on their door step telling them that are not under arrest and that anything they say will be..... 
We now struggle to find shows to go to and nervously head off across country in the early hours of the morning in the hope that the show isn’t cancelled before we arrive. Upon arrival (assuming it isn’t cancelled) we find visitor numbers in the low hundreds because many won’t take the risk of a long journey, only to be turned away on arrival. This lack of shows has also stopped many clubs from promoting themselves hence (I suspect) the decline in the number of clubs around the country. 
18 months ago, if you wanted to use a courier you would of been disappointed as all had gone due to new legislation. Thankfully on this one we do have a couple of small companies fighting back (and I wish them every success). 
We now have more controls on how we keep our animals and we can find ourselves in trouble just because someone thinks our way of doing things ‘might’ cause welfare problems in the future all thanks to the new Animal Welfare Act.
And as you sit there, reading this we are all facing more legislation requiring us to have permits and proof of origin for what are now EPS listed species.
And so to the future. 
As more and more legislation is aimed at our hobby, everything will become more difficult. More and more people will either just get fed up and drop out, find that they can no longer keep the animals they want to keep and drop out or find themselves in breach of the new legislation and be forced out. Young people will avoid the hobby and work with something less legislated and the old die hards will gradually die off. The lack of interest will kill off the clubs, the lack of sales will kill of the majority of the shops and the lack of shops will see a fast decline in UK equipment manufacturers and reptile food producers. 
Finally, one day, the Government will be able to say ‘ look its only a hand full of people that keep these things, and its only a few dozen animals being kept. As of now imports are banned and so is breeding and very shortly the last reptile will die and that will be the end of reptile keeping in the UK. 
At that point they can bring in a total ban and not one person will raise an eyebrow.
So will there be an immediate ban on the keeping reptiles? No there won’t be but unless we all start to kick up a fuss very soon and start fighting for what we have, the downward decline will continue and one day our enemies will win by default and DEFRA will get its ban by stealth
Don’t believe any of this?
Neither did the fox hunters to begin with and the smokers still haven’t totally woken up to what’s happening to them.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*You know l am going to ask?*

Hi N, 

So can we place this on PKL?

Rory


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Here is a thought.........*

Well hey, now that we are being doomy and gloomy, and l am still up. Why not??

Right, so here is a big question.

The Antis win!

The RSPCA wins!

Even if the winning is just a very serious restriction on all animal keeping.

What are the main party of the RSPCA going to do?

I mean, will they disband?

What do you think?

Here is something for you then, just say they over throw the regulative body of DEFRA, and start running that?

OOOH!

Might explain some of the closed doors to our boys.

Plus, there is a huge income in reservation in one charities bank account, that is well huge!! Enough to buy a Governmental campaign....!

What do you think now??

LOL

Rory


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

if the RSPCA overthrow DEFRA and start running that, then they will put the squeeze on all species of animal being kept as pets. They would not be dependant on the public giving them money anymore... nobody has to vote them in as they would be not be affiliated to any political party, so nobody can vote them out either. 

Lets face it... If this happened, all of the RSPCA's policies would become Law almost instantly and any Codes of Practice written by anybody else for the AWA would be thrown out and replaced with theirs. This would very swiftly mean a blanket ban on all caged pets.

As far as what we are allowed to keep and how we are allowed to keep it are concerned, the RSPCA would be running the country.

Why the question though Rory ? Is this likely ?


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Hi N,
> 
> So can we place this on PKL?
> 
> Rory


Feel free to use anything of mine.
Gordon


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Well hey, now that we are being doomy and gloomy, and l am still up. Why not??
> 
> Right, so here is a big question.
> 
> ...


They will always have something animal related to keep the money flowing in. I did hear one (now ex) member of the top brass say he wanted us all to go veggie.

As for buying Governments, isn't that cash for questions/favours/honours?

And it has been happenning for a long time.

Gordon

IFAWS ACTIVITIES AND DONATIONS

_The nineties see’s anti activities. and pressure on government to regulate pet keeping increase. Anties coin the term pet fares and liken them to boot sales etc. They also try to show all reptiles as dangerous, hard to keep, wild taken, short lived in captivity. They begin using the term exotic and create an image of badness related to the term. By the end of the nineties they are including birds and small mammals under the term exotic as well._
_What follows are the known monetary activities of just one of the many AR groups._

*1990*The International Fund for Animal Welfare, a Canadian based Animal Rights organisation, not a charity, sets up a wholly owned subsidiary, the Political Animal Lobby (PAL) through which it can donate to UK political parties.

*1991*
PAL gives £50,000 to the Labour Party, along with smaller donations to the Conservatives (£33,304) and the Liberal Democrats (£20,000). These donations are made discreetly and at the time went unnoticed.*1996*
The Political Animal Lobby makes a £127,000 donation to the Labour party. It also makes a £50,000 donation to the Conservative party and a £29,500 donation to the Liberal Democrats.
*September 1997
*The Observer runs a front page story on the 1st September 1997 about a £1 million donation to the Labour Party. There had been no official announcement of this. The Observer journalist had only learnt of the donation while just generally investigating party funding for another story. IFAW insisted the Political Animal Lobby had donated the money, but it was later revealed that PAL had needed a £600,000 ‘‘loan’’ from IFAW. Later information shows the exact donation to be £1,052,000, the largest recieved by the Labour in 1997. PAL also donated £50,000 to the Conservative part and £50,000 to the Liberal party.
*12 July 1999* 
Labour denies Blair's pledge to ban fox hunting is connected to an extra £100,000 donation received from anti-hunt pressure group the Political Animal Lobby (PAL).

*2001 *
PAL donate 47,582.00 to the Labour party including a £17,582 payment under section 62 of the PPERA regulations
*January 2002*
The laws on donations change and finding out who is loaning what to who makes further information gathering impossible.
Oh and DEFRA launch the Animal Welfare Bill.


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## 1949_sam (Jan 21, 2007)

Snakes r grreat said:


> Well, in over 24 hours this thread has been viewed 100 times and had 16 votes, compared to this thead www.reptileforums.co.uk/off-topic-adult-18/51818-rate.html which was started just after this one, has been viewed 818 times and had 47 votes!
> 
> It would be nice to get more votes in to see how people feel.


Yea thats a good point as IMHO i don't think a lot of keepers really care at the moment and once they have a bang on the door and lose there pets then they'll be thinking why didn't i do something about it  but by then it's to late


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Thanks for the votes and input everyone, very interesting.


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

meh! if it gets much worse here i'll just leave the country..


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