# CALCI-SAND for bearded dragon



## rainbowbrite (Apr 10, 2009)

Hi I thought sand was a no go area for lizards because of inpaction, I went to a rep shop the other day and they had all there lizards on calci sand , so I bought some after the bloke said it was extremely safe for them, anyhow, I have just read somewhere NEVER use calci sand, WHY???


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

rainbowbrite said:


> Hi I thought sand was a no go area for lizards because of inpaction, I went to a rep shop the other day and they had all there lizards on calci sand , so I bought some after the bloke said it was extremely safe for them, anyhow, I have just read somewhere NEVER use calci sand, WHY???


it clumps togetehr when wet, the inside of a lizard or anythign living really is wet, there for it clumps, making it bad, if not worse than sad.


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

first three pics on google
http://images.beardeddragon.org/images/articles/impaction01.jpg
http://www.petzoo.co.uk/images/impaction.jpg
http://www.petadvice.com.au/images/leopardgeckoimpaction.jpg


----------



## Adam W (Apr 21, 2008)

It is dangerous as lots of people have said on here, it bunches up on the insides of the beardie and severly impacts it. I use to used it on my first rep (only for a day).








The white blotches is the calci-sand


----------



## Paul B (Apr 16, 2008)

Impaction. No beardie keeper will recommend it for babies. Most not even for adults.
Play sand from Argos is cheaper and quite OK for adults.

P


----------



## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

The reason you see reptile shops using woodchips, calci sand ect ect is because the pet shop laws are rubish. It states that every reptile must be keps on reptile substrate. so your not allowed to use normal soil, only eco earth, cant use play sand - only desert sand or calci sand ect.

I would usually advise play sand to be the best one
Dave


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

reptiles_galore said:


> The reason you see reptile shops using woodchips, calci sand ect ect is because ...


... woodchips etc cost about £8 a bag..
wher as tiles newspaper are free and arent from their shop?
and they look ''nicer'' and mroe ''natural''


----------



## rainbowbrite (Apr 10, 2009)

I AM SO SHOCKED!!! THAT **** in the rep shop was telling me it was totally safe and It broke down in the lizards body and they benefitted from the calcium, :devil:


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

rainbowbrite said:


> I AM SO SHOCKED!!! THAT **** in the rep shop was telling me it was totally safe and It broke down in the lizards body and they benefitted from the calcium, :devil:


alot of people do say that, but i dont htnk its true..
i dont use any loose substrate personally.
OH does with his uropatus and cat geckos, but with paper on top.


----------



## Adam W (Apr 21, 2008)

rainbowbrite said:


> I AM SO SHOCKED!!! THAT in the rep shop was telling me it was totally safe and It broke down in the lizards body and they benefitted from the calcium, :devil:


Usually the reason they try to sell you this is that it is expensive and needs replacing every 6 months so its a nice earner.


----------



## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

i think its a myth that it breaks down. i would never risk it.
Dave


----------



## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> ... woodchips etc cost about £8 a bag..
> wher as tiles newspaper are free and arent from their shop?
> and they look ''nicer'' and mroe ''natural''


 
not all reptile shops want to use woodchips or calci sand. Sometimes its because there following the rules.


----------



## rainbowbrite (Apr 10, 2009)

he was on large wood chippings before, and I hand feed him, so confused now!! would play sand compact aswell thou??


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

reptiles_galore said:


> not all reptile shops want to use woodchips or calci sand. Sometimes its because there following the rules.


hmm
but ive also seem shops use paper and tiles etc too..
all are different.



rainbowbrite said:


> he was on large wood chippings before, and I hand feed him, so confused now!! would play sand compact aswell thou??



anything loose, can cause impaction, some have more of s risk than other, some pose no risk (ie slate/tiles etc)


----------



## rainbowbrite (Apr 10, 2009)

I know this sounds a bit daft but surely in the wild they must take in sand, dirt etc?do they die younger in the wild? sometimes you feel your doing right when yr doing so wrong!head doing totally!!:bash: freeky thanks for yr advice!!:blush:


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

rainbowbrite said:


> I know this sounds a bit daft but surely in the wild they must take in sand, dirt etc?do they die younger in the wild? sometimes you feel your doing right when yr doing so wrong!head doing totally!!:bash: freeky thanks for yr advice!!:blush:


in the wild they live on hard type clay. with a dusting of sand.
desert means a barron (sp) place be that clay, soil, ice, etc doesnt mean sand dunes...they dont live on them. also in the wild, they probably live for a year or two not (20?) in captivity?

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/177301-your-bearded-dragon-its-habitat.html


----------



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

reptiles_galore said:


> The reason you see reptile shops using woodchips, calci sand ect ect is because the pet shop laws are rubish. It states that every reptile must be keps on reptile substrate. so your not allowed to use normal soil, only eco earth, cant use play sand - only desert sand or calci sand ect.
> 
> I would usually advise play sand to be the best one
> Dave


thats incorrect a shop is free to put there reps on whatever they like, there is no part of the pet shop laws that state it must only use branded products.


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

pink said:


> thats incorrect a shop is free to put there reps on whatever they like, there is no part of the pet shop laws that state it must only use branded products.


i didnt hink it wasd, but i didnt wanna look like a twit, so i kept stum! lol


----------



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

heres my take on calci -sand feel free to pitchfork me any passing mobsters...

Ok so google calci sand and you get those impaction x-ray images, these are the same images that have being going around google for the past ten years or more, so much so nobodys really sure where they first came from and if they are in fact showing impaction - they probably are though - However just because i can google a picture of the twin towers going up on 911 it doesnt mean i will never fly in a plane again.

The guy in the pet shop is right, calci sand does break down in the body, its calcium carbonate, the same thing you dust your crickets with - only not ground up as fine. In fact we eat it all the time, next time you have a bowl of cereal have a look at the calcium carbonate content.

so the odd piece accidently swallowed here and there wont cause you any problems, However - take a pack of rennies out of the cupboard - key ingredient - calcium carbonate - it helps settle acid problems in the stomach, so too much and its going to prevent or slow down the little lizards stomach acids so that it wont be able to absorb it all. 

This usually only arises if the reptile is ingesting mouthfulls of the stuff, if you have a lizard that is prone to doing this, then dont use calci sand, I personnaly wouldnt use it for a beardie as they are known for lunging at their food - but there are a great deal of sand dwelling reptiles that thrive on calci sand - Its all about the right tool for the right job, calci sand isnt the devil in disguise - it isnt a calcium supplement however


----------



## Adam W (Apr 21, 2008)

pink said:


> The guy in the pet shop is right, calci sand does break down in the body, its calcium carbonate, the same thing you dust your crickets with


Then why do you need more of it, surely the amount on the crickets is sufficient? Also the calcium molecules used for dusting livefoods are smaller so are broken down alot faster due to an increased surface area for the body to procces. And what is the link between humans eating cereal and beardies eating calci sand?


----------



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Adam W said:


> Then why do you need more of it, surely the amount on the crickets is sufficient? Also the calcium molecules used for dusting livefoods are smaller so are broken down alot faster due to an increased surface area for the body to procces. And what is the link between humans eating cereal and beardies eating calci sand?


calcium carbonate - thats the link - its a food ingredient, long before it was thought "hey why dont we sprinkle calcium dust onto our crickets", calcium carbonate is used in food, pick up a packet of ready brek , look at the ingredients - Calcium carbonate - Calci sand is just a t-rex brand name for calcium carbonate, 

you dont need more of it, the amount on your crickets is sufficient, calci sand isnt a calcium supplement its a substrate, dont for one minute think that calci sand is safe to be used as a feeding supplement its not the grains are too course, however if "accidently" ingested the reps body should be able to break it down and deal with it, If its purposely being ingested or the reptile is always "accidently" eating the stuff, dont use it. wrong tool - wrong job, however if you have a desert snake say for example a sand boa and you want to give it a funky purple substrate (why??) then calci sand is the tool for that job - but for beardies no not really - wrong tool, wrong job.


----------



## Adam W (Apr 21, 2008)

pink said:


> calcium carbonate - thats the link - its a food ingredient, long before it was thought "hey why dont we sprinkle calcium dust onto our crickets", calcium carbonate is used in food, pick up a packet of ready brek , look at the ingredients - Calcium carbonate - Calci sand is just a t-rex brand name for calcium carbonate,
> 
> you dont need more of it, the amount on your crickets is sufficient, calci sand isnt a calcium supplement its a substrate, dont for one minute think that calci sand is safe to be used as a feeding supplement its not the grains are too course, however if "accidently" ingested the reps body should be able to break it down and deal with it, If its purposely being ingested or the reptile is always "accidently" eating the stuff, dont use it. wrong tool - wrong job, however if you have a desert snake say for example a sand boa and you want to give it a funky purple substrate (why??) then calci sand is the tool for that job - but for beardies no not really - wrong tool, wrong job.


I understand what it is and its intended purpose. But i didnt know that there were deserts of calci-sand out their, im sure that when i had a packet about 3 years ago (it only lasted a day) when i put a drop of water from the water bowl onto the substrate it set as a hard rock like substance, how would this differ from the insides of a reptiles. Tbh the sand in the austrailian outback does not really resemble calci-sand.


----------



## Zemo (Apr 6, 2009)

I had my Leos on calci sand for the first month because the rep shop said it's ok "as long as they aren't passing too much". But I did make sure that I had a separate pot of calcium in the viv when the sand was in there, the leos seemed to eat the calcium from the pot rather than the sand then. I use floor tiles now tho a lot easier to clean and no chance of impaction :2thumb:


----------



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Adam W said:


> I understand what it is and its intended purpose. But i didnt know that there were deserts of calci-sand out their, im sure that when i had a packet about 3 years ago (it only lasted a day) when i put a drop of water from the water bowl onto the substrate it set as a hard rock like substance, how would this differ from the insides of a reptiles. Tbh the sand in the austrailian outback does not really resemble calci-sand.


you didnt read my last post then....


----------



## Jim2109 (Mar 30, 2009)

just playing devils advocate here...

surely the entire reason for calci sand being invented was as a "prevention" for impaction caused by substrate ingestion?

a lizard ingests real sand, and it doesnt break up in stomach acid. it has to come back out the other end the same way it went in, as grains of sand. obviously sand is a problematic substrate for some lizards that cant help but ingest enough of it whilst eating to cause problems

some clever person at a reptile company had a brainwave and thought "what if the sand could be decomposed by stomach acid, and then just be passed out as regular waste? or even better, be partly absorbed by the reptile for improved health"

thus they thought up using calcium carbonate, but making it similar in texture and appearance to real sand. it can be properly digested, and the calcium content is good for health purposes.

reptile ingests calci sand and they can digest it in small amounts. if they are ingesting large amounts then that isnt down to the substrate, thats down to the reptile or the keeping methods. they obviously arent suited to that form of substrate, and also wouldnt be suited to normal sand either. in that situation you use tiles or paper, etc.

the insides of a reptiles stomach arent filled with water. so im not sure that water causing calci sand to clump up can be used as a negative here. in excessive quantities it might clump up inside a reptile, but if there is THAT much sand being ingested the problem is more than the substrate. theres a problem with the reptile simply eating its substrate (why would it do this?), the method by which it is being fed, etc.

there are plenty of people with horror stories about calci sand. ive been using this forum for probably a month or 2 now. out of the dozens of people ive seen criticising calci sand with nothing more than an x-ray picture they got off google for proof, ive seen maybe 1 or 2 people that are actually talking from personal experience

personally i think tiles and rocks look equally as good and cause no problems, with the bonus of being very easy to clean. keeping reptiles on sand isnt really necessary in most cases. but im not sure how anyone can say that play sand is safer than calci sand? play sand is 100% indigestible. calci sand is digestible in small quantities. if a reptile is ingesting larger quantities then there is a problem that needs addressing, and the root of the problem isnt the substrate itself. play sand is cheaper, but i fail to see it as a safe alternative to calci sand


----------



## mirrorpad (Mar 9, 2009)

if calci-sand is so dangerous, why are they allowed to sell it? if its just for reps that dont lunge into the substrate why isn't it stated.
dont use it myself.


----------



## Zemo (Apr 6, 2009)

Jim2109 said:


> just playing devils advocate here...
> 
> surely the entire reason for calci sand being invented was as a "prevention" for impaction caused by substrate ingestion?
> 
> ...


Ye, same here I think calci sand is ok if you make sure you watch over passing of it. I think people have got onto the whole issue tho by 1 story as you said and thought; "we have to tell everyone to use tiles!". If your willing to use calci sand then it's upto you. Only thing I will say is the lady I spoke to about calci sand has had reptiles all her life and she has a diploma in plants and animals. What she said was similar to what Jim said. She also said it's personal preference / she would only remove the sand if they lizard/lizards were passing a lot of it. Personally I just thought of using tiles because people discussed them on here and I feel I don't run the risk of impaction plus it's easier to clean. I wouldn't want to scare people into thinking calci-sand will _always_ kill their lizards! :notworthy:


----------



## rainbowbrite (Apr 10, 2009)

My boy is really lazy and likes to be hand fed so I guess he would be fine on it, thank u for the info, really interesting! THank you


----------



## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

freekygeeky said:


> hmm
> but ive also seem shops use paper and tiles etc too..
> all are different.
> 
> ...


think it depends on the local goverment rules. but i no round here they wont let you use anything other than woodchips, calci-sand, eco earth, desert sand. ie it must be branded as a reptile substrate. If you use playsand or paper of tiles then you have to clearly note that is not for sale. also if they catch you using it when its for sale round here they'll give you a warning and if you repeat you could loose you licence. Hence why i would rather be a private breeder so that i can keep them on what i want.
Dave


----------



## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

pink said:


> thats incorrect a shop is free to put there reps on whatever they like, there is no part of the pet shop laws that state it must only use branded products.


 
Depends on the local goverment, Our council representitive wont let the shops round here use anything other than braded substrate. I know couple of shops in my area who dont like using certain substrates but they have too.
Dave


----------



## reptiles_galore (Aug 13, 2008)

pink said:


> heres my take on calci -sand feel free to pitchfork me any passing mobsters...
> 
> Ok so google calci sand and you get those impaction x-ray images, these are the same images that have being going around google for the past ten years or more, so much so nobodys really sure where they first came from and if they are in fact showing impaction - they probably are though - However just because i can google a picture of the twin towers going up on 911 it doesnt mean i will never fly in a plane again.
> 
> ...


 
totaly 100% agree. Well said. Like you said if the lizard lives on loose sand in the wild then its fine, but again as you said we all know beardies lunge for there food so dont use it on beardies.
Dave


----------



## Adam W (Apr 21, 2008)

pink said:


> you didnt read my last post then....


Erm i thinkyou will find that i have other wise i would not of qouted it!!!


----------



## ..:: F1D0 ::.. (May 13, 2009)

first off reptiles galore is right. Government legislation states that exoctic pet shops, livestock must kept on appropiate reptile substrate. Shops can keep them on anything other than reptile substrates however, they need to make it clear that the animal is of non sale and for display purposes only. This legislation is not very well governed, keeping exotic pets in the UK even though has been around for many years is still relitively new compared to some parts of the world.

Secondly, this calci sand debate is never going to stop, it is a) of personal choice, so dont bash anybody that uses it b) depends on how good a hunter your beardie is. Personally i dont use it, i use argos childs playsand and it works a treat, however - i am soon going to be replicating the beardies natural habitat by using a block of clay with a "dusting" of sand very soon.

This impation business will never go away, there IS a risk, however there are risks with eveything we do in life. There is a risk you will get run over when crossing a road, there is a risk you will get ina fight on nights out, there is a risk for your lizard to ingest calci sand, there is a risk of impaction to your lizard. My point here is, with the right preventive measures, this risk is greatly reduced. Maybe keep a beardie on coloured calci sand and feed outside of the viv in another viv? check the beardies stool daily to see if clumps of sand are coming out and not being digested.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

..:: F1D0 ::.. said:


> Government legislation states that exoctic pet shops, livestock must kept on appropiate reptile substrate. Shops can keep them on anything other than reptile substrates however, they need to make it clear that the animal is of non sale and for display purposes only. This legislation is not very well governed, keeping exotic pets in the UK even though has been around for many years is still relitively new compared to some parts of the world.


No it doesnt, trust me it really doesnt say anything like this and i have no idea where such a suggestion would even come from??, a local council would be able to add that as a stipulation to the licence but that would be a really bizarre stipulation to add, I dont doubt that reptiles glalores local council may have made this a stipulation to obtaining a pet shop licence, but that is a very very bizarre stipulation, so just to clear up there is no such goverment legislation that stipulates a reptile must be displayed on reptile substrates, us pet shop owners are free to put our reptiles on whatever we please as long as it is appropriate for the species and doesnt contravene any of the other animal welfare aspects to the licence.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

and just to confirm i have googled ashford county councils licence conditions, (assuming ashford is reptiles-galore local council going on location) and they are the bog standard conditions with no specific clauses attached, so i am afraid to say somebody has been having you on... why god only knows?

http://www.ashford.gov.uk/pdf/environment_petShopConditions.pdf

http://www.ashford.gov.uk/pdf/Environment-PetShopGuidance.pdf


----------



## nikkiskae (May 7, 2011)

Jim2109 said:


> just playing devils advocate here...
> 
> surely the entire reason for calci sand being invented was as a "prevention" for impaction caused by substrate ingestion?
> 
> ...


Best answer ive heard on calci sand by far! If your Dragon is fed properly and has the correct lighting, there is no reason for him/her to eat loads of substrate, be it sand or beech chips.


----------

