# 'THE' How to build a dart frog viv thread...



## bothrops

Expanding foam/silicon/coir

Gorilla glue/silcon (or not)/coir/xaxim

Kigspan/gorilla glue/Expanding foam/coir

Expanding foam/elastopur/epoxy

fibreglass!??



silicon the glass first?

false bottom or not?

waterfall or not?





OK - This is what I'm thinking. We have loads of 'How to' threads. What I'm thinking is a single thread that summarises the pros and cons of the methods that can be used, all in one place.


If you have built a dart viv (or many!) please place the basics of the method(s) that you used here.

Please post the following format....

Tank size:
Tank type (exoterra/home build etc):
Background build method (just product list):
Any problems encountered:
Any changes you'd make:
Special additions (false floor/waterfall):
Species:
Any other info:
Approximate cost:
A pic of the finished product:

An feel free to stick in a link to a thread of your whole build if you have one on here!


The idea is to build up a bit of a 'where to start' and 'standing on the shoulders of giants' type thread where people who want to have a go at a dart frog viv can read through and make choices as to which method to use based on others experiences, all in one place!


So, please post here!

(I anticipate some chat and discussion between posts, but please keep it to a minimum and only about direct questions to the builders themselves!)

:2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman

Ok so here goes.

I have around two years viv building experience so far and probably built around 8/9 vivs....Not all finished!

*Backgrounds*

How important? Well, depends on the type of viv you want to create. It's easy to forget that within 6 months to a year the vast majority of it will be covered in plants. All that hard work and it's covered up! For this reason my personal preference is *tree fern* panels. However they're not always as environmentally friendly as other options, are expensive and sometimes hard to come by.

So, I'll go through the other methods I've tried and you can weigh up the pros and cons.

Expanding foam/silicone/eco earth: Cheap, effective, but time consuming. It takes ages to cover the foam and remember.....most of it will be covered n plants anyway.

Cement/polystyrene: Fun! Creates a great look that stands out from the usual backgrounds. Not very realistic looking however and difficult to plant in.

Gorrila Glue/Eco earth: The ultimate! If you're not going for tree fern use this method. It's quick and cheap plus looks just as good as the expanding foam method. Moss grows on it, you can plant in it and it's strong enough to hold large pieces of wood if you wish to add them to you background.

Anything else?

Yes, experiment! Always try and think of new and exciting ways to build a viv. If it fails, you can always rip it out and try again.

What about pebbles?










*Vivariums*

The ENT/Rana style are the ones to have. Don't skimp. The only alternative I would use are converted fish tanks....But they're expensive if buying new and will need drilling for drainage and misting systems.

Exo terras can look good but they will suffer from fruit fly escapees and need modifications.










*Substrate and drainage*

Don't mess this up. Hydroleca at the bottom, old net curtains for substrate divider, a free draining substrate that doesn't become waterlogged. A DRAINAGE HOLE is a must IMO. 90% of my plant failures were from having a substrate that was too moist or a drainage layer that flooded the substrate too quickly.

So what do I use? Plain old orchid bark. Some like to add other bits, but I've had immense growth using this alone.

*Lighting*

Some people make it so complicated. Adding reptile or aquatic branding to lights ups the price. Get some strip lights with decent reflectors in something around the 6500k range. Job done.

I get mine from a hydroponics shop.

Propagation Grow Lights - Lightwave T5 Grow Lamp | Growell

Cheap and has everything you want to grow plants. Remember the stronger the lighting, the faster the growth, which will mean more nutrients used by the plants.

*Vivarium size?*

Well, it depends on the frogs. For a pair of terrestrial darts I like to use 80 x 40 x 40cm. I've found light really starts to strain once you start pushing 60cm, so I have a lower height to make the most out of my light unit.

*Cost?*

Ouch. Yeah, it can be as expensive or as cheap as you'd like. I could easily spend over £1000 on one viv. I could probably keep it at £200 aswell.

My triple viv rack which is 3 x 80cm x 40cm x 40cm vivariums:

Vivs x 3 = £225 from Rainforest Vivariums

Light units x 3 = £150 from Growells. Link above.

Hydroleca = £20 from Growells.

Net curtains = Free.

Substrate = Around £40 from Growells.

Bogwood = £20.

Tree fern = £60 from Dartfrog - Everything for the Amphibian Keeper

Gorilla glue and earth = £30.

Misting System = £200 from Dartfrog - Everything for the Amphibian Keeper

Plants and extras = £200 from assorted places.

Chrome Rack = £70 from Ebay.

I make that £1015.

Pics to follow.

*Advice?*

Yeah. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Waterfalls are stupid.


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## Morgan Freeman




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## chrism

Hi- speed reply as @ work.



bothrops said:


> Expanding foam/silicon/coir
> 
> Gorilla glue/silcon (or not)/coir/xaxim
> 
> Kigspan/gorilla glue/Expanding foam/coir
> 
> Expanding foam/elastopur/epoxy
> 
> fibreglass!??
> 
> Personally dont like G'Glue. Try plastidip. Is a safe rubberised paint. Pour on, slap on substrate, leave to dry. Job done.
> Quick, easy, and black to covers up. Can paint on anything- straight to glass, foam, you...
> 
> silicon the glass first?
> 
> Never bothered, never needed.
> 
> false bottom or not?
> 
> Personal preference.
> 
> waterfall or not?
> 
> If building a big viv, they look good, and will encorange 'some' species to breed, but mostly not required and just makes mess!
> 
> 
> OK - This is what I'm thinking. We have loads of 'How to' threads. What I'm thinking is a single thread that summarises the pros and cons of the methods that can be used, all in one place.
> 
> 
> If you have built a dart viv (or many!) please place the basics of the method(s) that you used here.
> 
> Please post the following format....
> 
> Tank size: Big as you can afford.
> Tank type (exoterra/home build etc): Dart specific viv all the way. So many more pro's. For me, I also go single piece door-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old rack, but all with doors in place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Background build method (just product list): As above- plastidip over foam
> Any problems encountered: would be lying if didnt!
> Any changes you'd make:
> Special additions (false floor/waterfall):
> Species:
> Any other info:
> Approximate cost:
> A pic of the finished product:
> 
> An feel free to stick in a link to a thread of your whole build if you have one on here!
> 
> 
> The idea is to build up a bit of a 'where to start' and 'standing on the shoulders of giants' type thread where people who want to have a go at a dart frog viv can read through and make choices as to which method to use based on others experiences, all in one place!
> 
> 
> So, please post here!
> 
> (I anticipate some chat and discussion between posts, but please keep it to a minimum and only about direct questions to the builders themselves!)
> 
> :2thumb:


Dartfrog, UK company but just sells stuff from Europe, and charges too much. Can buy the same from ENT. Pollywog is good, as is rainforest vivs.


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## Wolfenrook

Gorilla Glue - How To

There are 2 methods I use to create gorilla glue backgrounds. These are the direct to glass method, and the build a poly panel method.

_Direct to glass._

This is by far the easiest, and cheapest, way to create a background in a vivarium, especially if you use plain old eco earth or peat as the covering.

A few things to remember, wear gloves and old clothes, cover your door tracks with masking tape (and anything else you don't want clogging up) as the glue foams up quite a bit, and 1 tiny tiny drip can become a huge blob pretty quickly. The gloves are because it sticks to skin like a pig, if you do get it on you let it dry, then peel off the thicker bits then leave overnight. The next day use some play sand and water and give your hands a good rub with this, it usually fetches it off.

Right, the steps.

1) Clean the surface you are going to be working on, it doesn't matter if it's still damp when you apply the glue.

2) The surface you are working on MUST be horizontal, Gorilla Glue pours like golden syrup and will run straight off otherwise, so tip your tank/viv onto it's back or side (if you are covering a side).

3) Pour the glue onto the surface, the more you put on the thicker a layer you will end up with, so take care as if you put a LOT on you will end up with a 3 inch thick background. :lol2: Spread the glue so the glass is totally covered.



















4) Give the glue a spraying with water, be aware the more water you spray on, the more it will foam, up to a point. Too much water and you will get pools of water with no glue on the glass. Once you have sprayed the glue give it 5 to 10 minutes to foam up and become tacky.










5) Pour your substrate of choice (ground xaxim gives you the best finish as it sticks the best, however it is expensive. Eco-Earth or peat are very cheap, but it doesn't always bond as well) onto the glue, you can do this whilst the substrate is still moist or even wet unlike when using silicone, the glue will just use the water in it to foam more. Make sure you cover all of the glue, and press the substrate down into the glue. You can also push small pieces of wood into the glue at this stage, or the ends of liana wood, but beware of creating levers that will pull the wood out of the glue if a frog sits on it. Avoid trying to stick mushrooms on in this way, the glued end will simply rot and the mushroom will fall off.





















6) DO NOT walk off and leave it at this point, as the glue will continue to foam up and expand for up to an hour! During this time, you must continue to push the substrate down into the glue, and if you are allowing some areas to come out further you will get gaps in the substrate that will need more substrate pushing into to cover. Once it's stopped expanding, give it another hour after which it's usually pretty solid and bonded.

7) Repeat the process for each side you want to cover, if using liana make sure you either push both ends into glue, or that one end will be able to rest on the bottom to help take some of the weight. Wait at least 24 hours before adding animals.

With this method, you should finish with something looking like this:-

Eco Earth+sphagnum peat+ground xaxim









Just Eco Earth









How flat the background will be is up to you, it all depends on if you chose to keep pushing the foamed up bits back down or not.

Pros of this method

1) VERY cheap. A lite of Gorilla Glue goes a LONG way (multiple vivs) and costs about £20. 2 bricks of Eco Earth costs about £5 and again goes a LONG way. This means you can do multiple vivs for a total cost of about £25!!! Even coco matting costs more than this, and isn't nearly as attractive.

2) Very simple to do.

3) Creeping ficus etc LOVE to grow up it, and it looks gorgeous once grown in.










Cons of this method

1) You MAY find you get spots where the substrate rubs off as it hasn't been pushed in enough (more common when using Eco-Earth or similar), easily fixed using some brown silicone and DRY substrate so long as the viv isn't inhabited yet.

2) It can be messy.

3) It's not as easy to sculpt, the shapes you end up with are often hit and miss. On the flip side, this can look quite natural.

Next up, the build a panel method.

Ade

​


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## Wolfenrook

_The Build a Poly Panel Method_

This is a little more complex to do, and costs a little more than the direct to glass method. However I favour it for the following reasons:-

Pros

1) It allows you to build a sculpted background, with fake roots, shelves etc that just aren't possible with the direct to glass method.

2) You build the panels OUTSIDE of the viv, so any mistakes wont impact the viv and can be corrected before the panel goes into the viv.

3) It gets around the need to work on a horizontal surface, as you do the panel flat, then you can easily silicone it to even vertical surfaces, perfect if working on large and heavy tanks that can't be moved, tipped etc.

4) Comes with the same pros as the direct to glass method.

Cons

1) It's more expensive, as in addition to the substrate and glue you also need to buy polystyrene sheets and silicone.

2) You need access to tools, including a heat gun and some kind of knife to carve the polystyrene with, tape measure to measure up the panels and a saw to cut them to fit the viv. If you measure up wrong, you end up having to hack panels to get them to fit.

3) It's even messier than the direct to glass method, as not only is there mess with glue and substrate but when you carve the polystyrene you get tiny bits of polystyrene everywhere.

Tips: Again, wear gloves when working with the glue, and old clothed. Carve and cut the polystyrene sheet INDOORS as it's not good for wildlife, and work on some kind of dust sheets to limit the mess. Use the heatgun on the polystyrene OUTSIDE, or at least in a VERY well ventilated area. You don't want to be breathing the fumes.

Right, the method.

1) Measure the inside of the viv where the panels will be going, make sure to allow a little extra, it's better to have a small gap than to have to hack the sheets to get them in.

2) Cut all of the pieces you will need.

3) Carve them to the shape you want (I have used the blade of a padsaw, and a craft knife to do this, but you can also buy hot wire tools that make this less messy to do). Leave a bit more on the shapes than you actually want.

4) Go outside, and blast the carved surface with the heat gun until you have a 'skin' on the polystyrene. This also stops any tiny bits of the polystyrene from getting lose in the viv. This is why you left the shapes a bit bigger, the heat gun will melt them down more, you can even 'carve' some more shapes with the gun, and it looks very organic.



















5) Now, normally you would do the next bits still outside of the viv, putting the glue on the polystyrene in the same where as you would in the direct to glass method, spraying it, letting it foam etc, then applying the substrate.

Powdered xaxim substrate









However, you CAN instead silicone the carved panels into the viv BEFORE you glue them. This allows you to fill any gaps etc better, but you then need to be able to move the viv so you have a horizontal surface. It makes gluing in wood easier though, which is why I worked inside the viv on my pumilio viv (ground up xaxim substrate used):-










The gluing is the same though as with the direct 2 glass method, you just do it onto the polystyrene sheet rather than glass.










A couple of hours work, et voila:-










I LOVE this method, planted up it looks GREAT!










I know I've mentioned a few times the higher cost however, as you are probably looking at about an extra £3 per viv. :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na: It's also nowhere near as simple to do, but the finish can be far more attractive, and this method also allows you to build things like waterfalls into your background. : victory:

Ade


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## Wolfenrook

Right, it's a really simple method, using plastic food containers from Asda instead of having to cut pieces of waste pipe, and good old pond filter grid as this is cheap on ebay and easier to cut that egg crate/light diffuser. It's also a LOT stronger!

First up, decide how deep you want your false bottom, and buy some smart price food containers that are about the right hight you want. No cutting means no risk of bad cuts etc! I have trouble cutting straight, even with a mitre saw, so this made this a LOT easier to do for me!

Next up, figure out if you just want a total false bottom, or if you want spaces for a pond etc. Get out your old tape measure, measure the bottom of the viv, and work out how you need to cut your filter grid. To quote a popular kids show, measure twice, cut once. lol I find it easiest to cut using a PVC saw, these have special teeth to give a smoother finish.

Once you've cut the filter grid pieces to size, it's time to work out where to position the food tubs. Do this WITHOUT any silicone, checking you have them right by placing the filter grid onto the tubs and pressing on the edges. If it wobbles, you need to position a pot closer to the edge you pressed on. Remove the lids from the tubs, you wont be using the lids.










Keep doing this until you can press on every edge without the filter grid lifting at the other side, and can press on the bits between the pots without the grid bending downwards (especially important if you are going to put heavy wood or rocks on top of it).

Now, remove the grid again, and one at a time put a bead of silicone around the rim of the pot and then put it back into position, pressing down a bit to site it. Repeat for each tub.










Once they are all siliconed into place, put a bead of silicone on the top of the tubs:-










Once you have silicone on the 'top' of every tub, place the filter grid back on top of them.

Next up, I like to place a bead of silicone along the edges of the grid that are in contact with the glass:-










This helps to keep the grid in position.

Next up, you need to cut either some weed fabric or fine woven netting to fit on the filter grid. You do NOT want it coming too far down, as especially weed fabric will act like capillary matting/a wick, drawing water out of the false bottom into the substrate, which you don't want.

Once it's cut, use cable ties to fasten it onto the grid. In this picture you can see that I put grid around the edges, this is because I left spaces to create a pond etc using pebbles, the grid is to keep the pebbles from going under the false bottom, if you are going edge to edge you don't need this, but you WILL need to silicone a tube into the bottom with a notch out of it or some holes drilled so you can syphon excess water out from under the fale bottom. If you have a 'pond' are, you don't need this as you can just push tubing into the pond and syphon from there.










You can also see that I stuck the weed fabric to the glass with the silicone, this will help keep things like crickets from getting under the weed fabric down the back.

Anywhere you can't use cable ties, try silicone.










Weed fabric sticks to silicone quite well.

Pros of a false bottom:-

1) VERY light, even lighter than say hydro leca.

2) Makes creating a water feature easier:-




























3) Cheap to do.

4) You can hide things, like aquarium heaters, under the false bottom.

Cons

1) Harder to do than just pouring in some hydroleca, or buying a ready made ENT style viv with a build in sloped false bottom.

2) Harder to remove if you decide/need to tear the tank down at some point.

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman

Can we add a note somewhere that *peat isn't very sustainable*? It's why I don't use it anymore.


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## bothrops

Stickied and cleaned :2thumb:


(I may even remove this post in a bit to keep it 'proper streamlined like')



Please keep the ideas flowing.


Also - don't be put off by the awesomeness of the builds/guides so far, it is just as valuable to post information regarding a complete carcrash/pigs ear you've made and the reasons why!


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## Wolfenrook

Biggest mistake made - Trying to use Titebond III instead of Gorilla glue, reason it takes over 24 hours to stop been runny! I tried it on the pumlio viv before giving up and going back to the Gorilla Glue. Put a thin layer on, applied the xaxim, left it for 4 hours. Stood the viv up, watched the substrate all start falling off whilst big runs of the Titebond III ran down my background onto the bottom of the viv.

A few yanks swear by Titebond III, I ended up swearing at it! Don't bother unless you can leave your viv laying flat for at least a few days before you do the next surface.

Second biggest mistake, trying to use Gorilla Glue to attach coco panels or cork bark. It foams too much. Stick to silicone, which doesn't. lol

My fave substrate mix:-

2/4s fine orchid bark.
1/4 ground xaxim.
1/4 either sphagnum peat or eco earth (slightly better plant growth with the peat)
Add some shredded sphagnum moss.
Add some crushed up dried oak leaves.
Add about 5mls to 10mls powdered calcium bentonite clay.
Mix it well, then seed with tropical spring tails and dwarf woodlice.
Keep it in a large bucket with a vented lid, mist it about once a week, keep it fed with fish flakes etc.

When you come to build a dart viv, your substrate is already teeming with inverts, cutting down MASSIVELY on how long you need to leave the viv before adding frogs, as in just long enough for silicone/gorilla glue etc to fully cure.

If you always make sure to holds some back in the bucket, you can just keep topping it up with more of the ingredients, keep feeding and misting and you will always have seeded live substrate ready to go for your next viv AND a backup colony of springtails and woodlice.

Ade


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## Wolfenrook

Cheapo fruit fly media.

3 parts Asda (NOT smart price) ready oat cerial (like Reddy Brek)
1 part Smart price potato flakes.

Boil some water, and stir in about 10-20mls honey. Then make a slightly runny paste using this honey water and the cerial and potato flakes using this hot honey water. Leave it in your fly containers to cool, then add flies as usual.

It produces ok for both Hydei and Melos, but isn't a patch on ENT media. It is however a LOT cheaper.  I use honey, because not only does it feed the yeasts that will grow in there, that feed the flies, but it also helps to fight mould growth WITHOUT stinking of vinegar.

Best supplement: Repashy Calcium Plus. Sticks to flies, weevils etc brilliantly, frogs thrive on it. Once a fortnight I give a feed with Nutrabol instead, but this is probably no longer needed with Repashy. It seriously simplifies supplementing.

Final tip, if you get the watering right, and the planting right, given time even coco panels can become attractive backgrounds, they just take a lot more effort and time than other backgrounds.

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman

I'll add my FF mix aswell so people can have a bit of a choice.

It's cheap and simple. Half tbsp of yeast, half tbsp of sugar and around a full cup of readybrek (or homebrand alternative). Add some orange juice and mix well until paste like consistency. Too wet and the flies drown, too dry and they have trouble laying in it. Add AT LEAST 50 flies.

For two Azureus I make one culture every week, this gives me more than enough flies.


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## chrism

Mine- readybreak, water, and wood wool. Yeast smells and didnt change my culture rates / yeilds etc.


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## soundstounite

culturing we use readybreak water and white wine vinegar,experimenting with Ade's honey.
ok back to topic:
Vivs
I built my first viv say when i was 10. 30 plus yrs later I am at it again. I messed about for around 7 yrs as a kid. Now i have been building vivs for around a year we are on say the 12th. The reason i mention this is because times have changed a bit,there is now a stella design out there made by ent.My mate Richie(hope ya don't mind mate kiddo) will build you one. Rainforest Vivariums Guys if you are gonna keep darts utilise this design,its the dogs,nuff said. there is baggage i kept from childhood about using aquariums they are ok they do a job but they are just that...ok,hell whats the point in not seeing your frogs because of condensation,use this design!!!!!!!!!ent have it sorted.
I have now kept dartfrogs since feb 25th 2011, yup big deal,compared to guys like Chrism my knowledge is infintesimally small but cause i use a slightly different method than the other folks here i'll pop up some details of the method we use,its not better its just a bit different. i like making stuff carving stuff, so the method that we use is not a quick way to build a viv,but i hope it will last. Hope being the operative word!!!
there is lots of detail on my room thread so because i have already chucked so much at ya, i wont dwell too heavily on the mechanics its all there for ya,we use rockoflex a grounding product that goes over your polystyrene/or expanding foam,and a top waterproof coat of epoxy resin. This is then covered with a mix of ecoearth/peat (or rockdust for rocks) . I appreciate Morgans sentiments about the use of peat,it is a difficult subject for me,but i use very little and what i do use is harvested in a way that does little damage to peat bogs,by "hoovering" off dry peat,i am still using the only bag of peat i have bought for this project i guess my room of 18-24 vivs will use the bag of 60 litres.
some thoughts about viv design:
One of the biggest reasons i take so much time over background is the provision of hiding places for the frogs,i appreciate, they for the most part will not be seen by us, especially with the use of creeping ficuses,my favoutite dartviv plants by a mile...but not straight pumilla,too fast growing for me. unless one has a real big viv. Personally i am not after a quick fix dart viv,whch i will be forever trimming and disturbing my charges. its always gonna be the long slow route.
With the everpresant eco yearnings that we see now just a few words on wood: you can pick up dead oak that looks wonderful in a viv for nought with a few kind words to the landowner or you can have some shipped half way around the world at what cost to our planet,fake vines can be made from our native lonicera,i don't yet know how long they will last,but they look very cool.
I feel much is to be made of trying to tailor a viv to its long term, occupants, a big deal this!!! try to find out where your frogs actually live what niche they occupy,build to them.... ha, if you do the gaff will look good to you,you won't ever beat nature. Replicating it in a TINY glass box is a big challenge the best looking vivs to our eyes are always these.
Nearly all these frogs will climb to a greater height than your viv, even the so called terrestrial ones.personally maximising their climbing frame by utilising 3 sides of the viv, is huge to me,it seems the frogs like it too, but, as above earlydays.
Really think about the utilisation of leaf litter this is so so so important to our frogs, i believe. A lot of their time is spent hunting here,it will also be a major contributor to the humidity of a viv and as the top leaves dry so quick it also provides a dry footfall for your froggies feet.
Take your time on a viv build its a joy this way.
Finally ,i guess some pics: they paint nearly as well as me LMFAO
































































































































Do you know the best bit....most of what you just looked at is very cheap ie the viv glass comes from skips old greenhouses,the plants one was bought,so what i'm saying is there are costs to dartkeeping but they don't need to be huge maybe £40 -£50 per viv plus lights,misting system is a £5 hand sprayer:blush: which maybe we'll never swap for an automated one,guys you can't beat your lass comming down from the viv room and saying wow thats so cool ya finish spraying and mr mystie starts calling,ha to order.

and just a bit of time:bash:
Shaz and i have a little thread here called Da dartroom'n' Shed loadsa pics or something such, if you need more detail. 
Or we can be contacted on the moon:whistling2:
Stu


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## bronz

Not a whole load to add but this is my terribilis viv. It's a 60x40x40 exo with some bits of cork panel and some poly panel sides made outside the tank with aqua soil and gorilla glue, mostly orchid bark and other sorts of mulch and a bit of eco earth for substrate, and a biggish bit of driftwood for decoration. There's also some oak twigs that I've encouraged ficus to grow along. Plants are mostly cuttings and pups from other vivs, as you can see Morgan's right when he says the sides'll be covered in growth before you know it. The first picture is soon after it was set up, the second just now:



















It's about 2/3 of the way towards where I want it to be, gotta love the joy of tweaking.


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## bothrops

There is some real talent on this here forum!


To keep it going (and in view of the last post illustrating the point nicely!)


Lets talk plants!

Where do I get them from?

How many?

What types are good, what to avoid?

Rookie errors?

Planting/landscaping tips?

What plants go where - how do you fix them, train them or position them? Does the background you've used help or hinder?


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## Wolfenrook

Right, plants chosen usually need to be ones that can tolerate quite high levels of relative humidity, so most are those found in humid environments. Bromeliads are VERY popular for dart frog vivs, and are especially important if you are keeping the obligate egg feeders such as oophaga, as they often use these both as egg deposition sites and also tadpole rearing sites. The most popular bromeliads tend to be those belonging to the neoregelia, as these seem to really thrive in dart frog vivs, and many have nice deep vases in which the frogs can hide etc. In a larger vivarium vriesea and aechmea can often do well, but most of these tend to be larger growing. Some folks also use guzmania bromeliads, however I find these don't last as well. One of my favourite bromeliad species are the cryptanthus though. Unlike the other broms I have mentioned these will actually grow quite happily planted in the substrate, where other broms will rot if you do this.

Most of the bromeliads (or broms as it's often shortened to) seem to prefer to be planted above the bottom 3rd of the vivarium, attached either to the background, sides or wood. For this purpose you can use wooden cocktails sticks or stiff wire (eg. paper clips). Eventually they will grow root like holdfasts that will firmly attach the plant. Vriesea I plant a bit differently. These seem to prefer to be planted where there is some shade, so I often use these below my other bromeliads, where they thrive. Again however they still grow best fastened to the wood or background, plant in the soil and they rot pretty quickly.

Next up, we have the creeping ficus. There are quite a few nice choices here that do well in the dart frog viv. My personal faces are the oakleaf ficus and Columbian ficus, both of which have nice small leaves. Some say oakleaf ficus is slower growing and more manageable, however I find it grows at a nice fast pace, Columbian grows at a similar pace. The slowest growing I have found is Panama ficus, which also has nice elongated leaves, this is best used where you don't need something to cover the background etc however, as it really is slow growing. A very popular ficus is normal pumilla, which grows quickly to cover background etc, however many people avoid this as it is a fast grower and needs regular pruning, there's a variegated variety as well but I find this takes a long long time to get established. I also know of some people who use trailing ficus, ficus sagittata, I've not used this however as I find the leaves a bit large for most dart vivs, and again it is a very fast grower.

Many folks like to use paperclips or similar to pin the ficus 'runners' to background, sides etc. I have found however that I get the best results by planting the ficus about 1-2cms from the background or side I want to grow it up, and then letting nature take it's course. If runners head in totally the wrong direction I simply let them get long enough and then gently move them in the direction I want them to go. This avoids the risk of pinching the stems, which the stem wont usually survive.

Two more good climbing plants for vivs belong to the cissus group. Cissus amazonica and cissus discolor. These are both VERY easy to grow, including from cuttings. Just push them into the substrate and guide the growth where you want it to go. Again I have found that pinning them kills the stem 9 times out of 10. A word of caution with these plants. If you get conditions spot on for them they grow VERY fast, almost as fast as inch plant. lol They are really easy to prune however, and as said very easy to grow from cuttings.

Next up have to be the fittonia. One tip with these, make 100% sure you are getting fittonia, as garden centres sell a plant that looks identical, but grows very very fast for a while, then drops dead. The good fittonia is quite slow growing and hard to kill. It's another that grows in teh substrate. They have lovely leaves, you can get it in pink, white and red.

No discussion about plants would be complete without discussing mosses. Many keepers are currently using native British woodland mosses. However it is suspected that without a cool spell (which they wont get in a dart viv) eventually these will fail. There is also the fact that it is not lawfull to remove these from woods that are not your property without the permission of the owner of the land in question. I prefer to use either tropical sheet moss, Java moss, Xmas moss, weeping moss etc. Most 'aquarium' mosses are actually terrestrial mosses that can survive under water, and this makes them perfect for the high humidity of the dart viv. You can simply pin them where you want them, or just drape it. A good method I have found though you mix the moss with some live sphagnum and then put it in a food processor/blender with some water and blend it to a paste, then just paint this on where you want it. Within a short time you start to see mosses growth. : victory: Keep it moist, keep it well lit and moss will grow most places.

Now onto some less commonly use plants. Just lately I have had good success with Alsobia (dianthiflora in my case, but there are some other nice ones), Chirita (relatives of African violets) and Surinam plant (an unknown species that has nice leaves and seems to grow quite tall). These I just planted into the substrate in well lit spots. The Alsobia and Chirita will both flower in the viv, and are very pretty plants.

Last but not least, begonia shultszei. This is a creping/climbing begonia that once established will have small white flowers on it most of the time. I just treat it the same as creeping ficus, except it does best with plenty of light.

There are lots of other plants that do well in vivs, however the ones I've mentioned are all quite easy to grow, and I have personal experience with. I grow a few others, but not all of these are as easy (tillandsia and orchids for example, which need plenty of air movement around them).

Now to sources. The 2 absolute best sources I have found are: Home - Bromelien Westermann (based in Germany) and Rainforest Vivariums. My ficus are mostly from either Dartfrog or Dutch Rana.

As to how many plants, that depends on the size of the viv, and the look you want. It also depends on the species you are keeping. For example, tincs I'd just use a small number of broms, some creeping ficus and maybe a few foliage plants. Thumbnails or pumilia however I would use a LOT of broms, lots of creeping ficus and a few foliage plants. You need to judge planting density for yourself, but always keep in mind how large the plant will ultimately get, and try to leave room for them to grow into.

I think the biggest rookie error that most of us have made with plants is simply planting broms in the substrate. As already mentioned most simply die and rot if you do this. The crown of the plant needs to be able to dry out completely between mistings, whilst they will live quite happily with a small quantity of water in the 'vase' of the plant (in fact, this is essential for raising the obligate egg feeders, if you use broms for this that is, some folks use film pots or other plants with deep leaf axels). Followed by planting things that grow FAR too large (lack of research) or just too densely.

Landscaping will depend again on species kept. Territorial species I tend to leave plenty of horizontal floor space (terracing can be good for this, using bogwood to form steps to the next level) and put most of my 'hard scaping' (wood etc) up the sides, using things like roots further into the viv so they can hide under these. More arboreal species I have found I get the best effect simply using liana glued to the back and sides, you can then plant the back and sides and the liana with broms, giving more depth than just a wall of broms, and giving the frogs more vertical climbing space. To illistrate what I am describing:-

Terrestrial









The wood is positioned so the frogs can get underneath it still, but also so that they can easily use the surface of the wood as another horizontal surface. It's easy for them to climb, so actually adds to the horizontal surface area, rather than detracting from it. In the right rear you can't see it but I have a small pyramid of peat plates, with a platform on top.









In this one, I simply used wood that wood have a minimal impact on floor space, positioning it well out of the way to leave plenty of clear floor space. I also sloped the substrate, with it much higher and deeper at the bag, nearly doubling the floor space. The wood use (flat liana) also provides platforms higher up in the viv where the frogs can perch to call.

Arboreal landscaped









IN this viv, my priority was to provide climbing space. By using liana glued to back and sides however I still left a good area of floor space, as no dart frogs are 100% arboreal, most enjoy browsing for inverts etc on the floor. The liana however gives the frogs plenty of places to climb etc should they chose to.

A couple of useful hints. First up leaf litter vs. moss. Moss I find looks better on the 'hardscape' rather than the floor, with the floor covered in plants and leaf litter. Frogs seem to like this too, not least as the leaf litter seems to faciliate the breeding etc of the soil invertebrates, giving the frogs something to browse on. My other tip is don't put your substrate in flat. Bank it up, with it deeper at the back than at the front, and bank it up a little where you have your wood, with dips where there isn't any. The slope gives more floor space AND gives an illusion of depth, the dips and humps just look much more natural.

Some notes on choice of background.

These are just from my experience, but I find that ficus do extremely well growing up eco earth type backgrounds, but that broms don't do as well attached to this, perhaps it stays too wet for them. Broms seem to do really well on xaxim panels, ground xaxim and coco panels, as do most climbers, ficus seems to grow more slowly up xaxim and ground xaxim however. Sorry for what may seem a dig bronz, but using something like ADA Aquasoil on your background is a BAD idea. As a planted tank keeper I happen to know that ADA Aquasoil is enriched with fertilisers, including high levels of ammonia, not a good idea for dart frogs. In planted tanks it has to be soaked for a month or so until the ammonia has finished leeching before you can add livestock. If it's used Aquasoil then it's probably fine, but using it brand new is quite a mistake.

One final little note. I am currently experimenting with using a pocket of 'clay' type substrate in my pumilio viv. This is done by isolating an area with weed fabric, and putting Tropica plant substrate which has been mixed with powdered calcium bentonite, powdered calcium supplement and root grow funghi spores (which is not enriched with ferts, it's just clay and sphagnum) into this, seeding with springs and woodlice, and covering it with leaf litter:-










The idea behind this is to provide an area of higher than usual calcium in attempt to increase calcium in the diet, especially of any baby frogs I may be fortunate enough to have one day, via the habits of soil invertebrates. No idea if it will work, but it's not done any harm either.: victory:

Ade


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## richie.b

Havent got the build for it but heres my golden mantella viv, when i made it




























and now its grown a bit



























cheers
Richie


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## richie.b

And my Atelopus viv





































as for plants i just pop out to one of my greenhouses










cheers
Richie


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## bronz

Sorry, when I said aquasoil I meant B&Q Aquatic Compost, which is very different from the the ADA product. According to the bag it's a mixture of peat and 'alternative sustainable ingredients' and has no added fertilisers. My bad for being misleading with the description.


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## Row'n'Bud

Expanding foam build here for a tank conversion in pics....

1: Light diffuser placed over the bottom at a slight gradient from 2" at rear to level with floor and two glass shelves attached to aid with final structure.
Once stuck firm the expanding foam work began after spraying down the glass to keep it wet to allow the foam to make contact and attach










2: Foam structure built up in stages, spraying each previous layer similar to how I sprayed the glass and pieces of cork bark and wood placed into the foam and held until foam supported them





































3: Once the foam had cured and was shaped the bare glass sides, the joint between the foam and glass and around the wood, cork, etc were sealed with silicone to allow the next stage to get a sufficient hold




























4: A standpipe was siliconed into one corner touching the light diffuser on the base to allow excess water to be syphoned from the base area










5: Several coats of rockoflex were now applied to the entire structure and the side glass










6: The rockoflex was then coated with elastopur which had brown pigment added to it and while it was still wet a liberal coating of a mix of fine orchid bark chips, ecoearth, fine xaxim and peat was applied and pressed firmly in......all these were left til they were bone dry before being used for this stage










7: After leaving for an hour or so to dry slightly the tank was then tipped upside down to remove the excess mix and any missed areas patched up with fresh elastopur and mix until the entire structure had a complete coating



















8: Netlon plastic mesh was now placed over the light diffuser two days after the last stage, allowing it to cure fully, and a layer of hydroleca placed on top to give a good drainage layer over the base sump



















9: This then was covered in cut strips of the white bags that locusts, livefood are delivered in to allow drainage into the base layer and 1/2" of fine orchid bark laid over it










10: The "live" substrate, made from xaxim, sterilised topsoil, leaf litter, fine orchid bark, pure peat, eco earth and a bag of dendrosoil containg live springtails, woodlice, etc form dartfrog uk was then placed over this and the fun of planting and scaping began.....still a work in progress atm


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## Row'n'Bud

After a good plant hunt today we're almost finished here, just a couple of ficus pumila and a couple of bromeliad pups or dwarf orchids to go now.......






















































Hooooraahhhh for homebase :2thumb::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Ccole

soundstounite said:


> culturing we use readybreak water and white wine vinegar,experimenting with Ade's honey.
> ok back to topic:
> Vivs
> I built my first viv say when i was 10. 30 plus yrs later I am at it again. I messed about for around 7 yrs as a kid. Now i have been building vivs for around a year we are on say the 12th. The reason i mention this is because times have changed a bit,there is now a stella design out there made by ent.My mate Richie(hope ya don't mind mate kiddo) will build you one. Rainforest Vivariums Guys if you are gonna keep darts utilise this design,its the dogs,nuff said. there is baggage i kept from childhood about using aquariums they are ok they do a job but they are just that...ok,hell whats the point in not seeing your frogs because of condensation,use this design!!!!!!!!!ent have it sorted.
> I have now kept dartfrogs since feb 25th 2011, yup big deal,compared to guys like Chrism my knowledge is infintesimally small but cause i use a slightly different method than the other folks here i'll pop up some details of the method we use,its not better its just a bit different. i like making stuff carving stuff, so the method that we use is not a quick way to build a viv,but i hope it will last. Hope being the operative word!!!
> there is lots of detail on my room thread so because i have already chucked so much at ya, i wont dwell too heavily on the mechanics its all there for ya,we use rockoflex a grounding product that goes over your polystyrene/or expanding foam,and a top waterproof coat of epoxy resin. This is then covered with a mix of ecoearth/peat (or rockdust for rocks) . I appreciate Morgans sentiments about the use of peat,it is a difficult subject for me,but i use very little and what i do use is harvested in a way that does little damage to peat bogs,by "hoovering" off dry peat,i am still using the only bag of peat i have bought for this project i guess my room of 18-24 vivs will use the bag of 60 litres.
> some thoughts about viv design:
> One of the biggest reasons i take so much time over background is the provision of hiding places for the frogs,i appreciate, they for the most part will not be seen by us, especially with the use of creeping ficuses,my favoutite dartviv plants by a mile...but not straight pumilla,too fast growing for me. unless one has a real big viv. Personally i am not after a quick fix dart viv,whch i will be forever trimming and disturbing my charges. its always gonna be the long slow route.
> With the everpresant eco yearnings that we see now just a few words on wood: you can pick up dead oak that looks wonderful in a viv for nought with a few kind words to the landowner or you can have some shipped half way around the world at what cost to our planet,fake vines can be made from our native lonicera,i don't yet know how long they will last,but they look very cool.
> I feel much is to be made of trying to tailor a viv to its long term, occupants, a big deal this!!! try to find out where your frogs actually live what niche they occupy,build to them.... ha, if you do the gaff will look good to you,you won't ever beat nature. Replicating it in a TINY glass box is a big challenge the best looking vivs to our eyes are always these.
> Nearly all these frogs will climb to a greater height than your viv, even the so called terrestrial ones.personally maximising their climbing frame by utilising 3 sides of the viv, is huge to me,it seems the frogs like it too, but, as above earlydays.
> Really think about the utilisation of leaf litter this is so so so important to our frogs, i believe. A lot of their time is spent hunting here,it will also be a major contributor to the humidity of a viv and as the top leaves dry so quick it also provides a dry footfall for your froggies feet.
> Take your time on a viv build its a joy this way.
> Finally ,i guess some pics: they paint nearly as well as me LMFAO
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> image
> Do you know the best bit....most of what you just looked at is very cheap ie the viv glass comes from skips old greenhouses,the plants one was bought,so what i'm saying is there are costs to dartkeeping but they don't need to be huge maybe £40 -£50 per viv plus lights,misting system is a £5 hand sprayer:blush: which maybe we'll never swap for an automated one,guys you can't beat your lass comming down from the viv room and saying wow thats so cool ya finish spraying and mr mystie starts calling,ha to order.
> 
> and just a bit of time:bash:
> Shaz and i have a little thread here called Da dartroom'n' Shed loadsa pics or something such, if you need more detail.
> Or we can be contacted on the moon:whistling2:
> Stu


fantastic set ups! totaly envy! i was wondering how you stuck the flower pots to the side? was it expanding foam? if it is, is it toxic to reptiles?

cheers and total respect


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## soundstounite

Ccole said:


> fantastic set ups! totaly envy! i was wondering how you stuck the flower pots to the side? was it expanding foam? if it is, is it toxic to reptiles?
> 
> cheers and total respect


As far as i know no,but best to check for reps! not once its cured properly (on the expanding foam),many cure via moisture so mist before and after use. the pots are secured with the usual aquarium silicone,i spread silicone on the glass too,i see it as a better key but some guys don't,so down to you...your choice,if you have a serch through the thread you'll see somewhere:blush: sorry but i was asked for detail...they got it:2thumb: a step by step of the process to make foam planters,which is used as well as a method of sticking an actual pot to glass with silicone and foaming around it,we employ both methods the planters also are a stop gap to use any excess rockoflex and epoxy that is left over from a build,i can then employ them later
thanks for the words to mate
Stu


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## brickdagecko

this thread is great should be updated with more methods, i am just saying this for an excuse for more great set up pics


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## Jor1

Pretty amazing set ups:no1:
with the false bottom how do you create the pond? do you have to completely separate the pond from the bottom? and how did you do that?
thanks


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## Wolfenrook

Jor1 said:


> Pretty amazing set ups:no1:
> with the false bottom how do you create the pond? do you have to completely separate the pond from the bottom? and how did you do that?
> thanks


If you mean the one on my false bottom, the pond is just an area where the false bottom isn't present, with pebbles added to hide the false bottom and make it look more natural. The water in there is the same water as found under the false bottom. The pond gives me somewhere to remove water from if it gets too full, in that viv I have to top it up though not drain it. lol



brickdagecko said:


> this thread is great should be updated with more methods, i am just saying this for an excuse for more great set up pics


I only really have 2 other methods, and they are so simple it would be hard to make an entire post with them. One method I just silicone natural cork bark pieces to the glass, with black fablon on the outside of the viv. The other I use the Juwel stone backgrounds siliconed on. One other thing to consider is to go backgroundless, and instead use wood and bark structures to attach plants to. This can look really really natural. 

Ade


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## Jor1

Wolfenrook said:


> If you mean the one on my false bottom, the pond is just an area where the false bottom isn't present, with pebbles added to hide the false bottom and make it look more natural. The water in there is the same water as found under the false bottom. The pond gives me somewhere to remove water from if it gets too full, in that viv I have to top it up though not drain it. lol
> 
> 
> Ade


ahh ok i think i understamd, but do the frogs not swimm under the false bottom and get stuck? or am i completely missing the point lol, sorry im having a very slow day..:bash:


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## Wolfenrook

In the case of that particular viv, the inhabitants are 3 full grown male White's tree frogs, they couldn't fit through the spaces in the grid making up the false bottom if they tried.  However smaller frogs would be stopped by the pebbles I used (B&Q Chinese Black Pebbles).

Ade


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## Jor1

Are the pebbles wedged in some how then? Have you slanted the crate to get a ramp leading into the pond if not would that be possible?
Could I slant it and use some sort of fabric to stop the frogs from going through the holes but still let the water in/out?

Sorry for all the questions =\ lol


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## Wolfenrook

The pebbles are just placed in lose. False bottom isn't slanted at all, but the pebbles form a slope. Not that it matters, tree frogs and dart frogs aren't actually aquatic. You COULD slant it, however this would make for harder cuts. As to fabric, if you want to do this use something like net curtain or the like, most fabrics like weed fabric will wick water into the substrate too much.

Ade


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## terryTHEfrog

Oh some good ideas can't wait to get started


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## samnsteve

Hi, a few newbie questions here lol 
Im currently constructing a naturalistic viv for my crestie, which I've now decided to scrap in favour of the polystyrene covered in substrate as shown on the first page :mf_dribble:

Im just interested as to how the plants are attached? Should I carve my background, use expanding foam to attatch some pots then use the gorrila glue and substrate? Or would the glue do something to the expanding foam?
I also love the idea of having the wood as part of the background, but how is it attached? Is it siliconed to the poly before the substrate is glued on?

Many thanks


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## Patto96

It does depend which plants. Many Bromeliads can be attached directly to the back, some can't however. You may want to choose a climber to go on the back, you can run into space problems if you attach a soil needing plant to the back via a pot.

What I have in my crestie viv is a broadleaved plant (which he likes to climb on), a spider plant (to add volume, and because it is easy ), a bromeliad atached to the back with a cable tie and a widely spaced leaved plant (don't know what it is exactly).

I use cocofibre mixed with sustainable peat.
I have used sticks from my local woodland, as well as dried oak leaves. I have then put tropical springtails and woodlice in and it is working quite well.

I have put a lot of plants in that I can't see the back too well. But I suspose you could attach the pieces of wood with glue, or use cable ties. If you use cable ties, through the polystyrene you can replace the wood if it gets too rotted. The cable ties would work best with small branches.


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