# UK livefood rip-off



## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Some scientists say insects and worms are the future protein source for humans. They say that, because kilo for kilo it is quicker and cheaper to produce protein from bugs. If so why is reptile livefood so expensive? Today I recorded the mass of large hoppers in a fresh box produced by Peregrine as 4 gram. That works out at 500 quid a kilo. Surely the most expensive food on the planet. Have been saying it for many years UK livefood is sub shoddy quality and way over priced.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

harry python said:


> Some scientists say insects and worms are the future protein source for humans. They say that, because kilo for kilo it is quicker and cheaper to produce protein from bugs. If so why is reptile livefood so expensive? Today I recorded the mass of large hoppers in a fresh box produced by Peregrine as 4 gram. That works out at 500 quid a kilo. Surely the most expensive food on the planet. Have been saying it for many years UK livefood is sub shoddy quality and way over priced.



Slight tangent but a few months ago on the same day I spent £7 on two large frozen rats my better half was buying two decent sized chickens off the shelves at Tesco for £5 !! ( £2.50 each )


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Pulled some diced beef out of my freezer, the other day. Bag of mice came with it :roll:

Once my Water Dog grows a bit more, I'll be a very happy snappy chappy. Be bunging him thawed mice. I have loads of them. Retired rat catcher, see? Took me years to get my hands on this new snapper. But, I've cunningly spent those years topping my freezer up with clean, unbaited mice.

Regards bugs? No one likes paying the prices they charge for them. But, why do ye think people do? You try breeding crickets or locusts. Looks dead easy, on paper .....


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

But mealworm and cock roaches are easy to breed.


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## Inventor (Aug 31, 2007)

Bugs are more expensive as they are not really a common commodity. Do you think burgers would be this cheap without McDonald's? Hahahaha


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

I had a go at mealworms, a year or so back. Found it insanely therapeutic, sitting here, digging out the pupae and the dead. Sorting everything into its own little boxes. 

Lost the lot, in the end. Got too cold, in here, for them. I actually bought a long strip heat mat, with a view to putting that on a shelf and the boxes on it. Can't honestly remember what happened. Mat's down in the stables now. And I still have boxes of bran up on the shelf. I live like this.

Back when I had a room full of all sorts, I once had the idea of cockroaches. I rang a more general Pest Controller and asked if he could get me any. I'll never forget the world weariness in his voice. Some basket case was actually _asking for_ cockroaches. He, finally, really had heard it All, now.

But, yeah. He put me straight. I was already bestowing stray crickets on my neighbours. Oh the joy, if they found out I was now messing with cockroaches :blush:


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

think about the costs and labour involved in a fully staffed insect breeding operation (does anyone reading this thread work for free?) ... the building (rent) ... the heating ... the food for the bugs ... the number of bugs they have to keep as breeders ... the cleaning ... plus the packaging ... plus the transportation to the pet shops (does the drivers drive for free or do they get a salary?) ... plus the pet shop making a profit on each tub (salary for the staff)


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## Inventor (Aug 31, 2007)

el Snappo said:


> I had a go at mealworms, a year or so back. Found it insanely therapeutic, sitting here, digging out the pupae and the dead. Sorting everything into its own little boxes.
> 
> Lost the lot, in the end. Got too cold, in here, for them. I actually bought a long strip heat mat, with a view to putting that on a shelf and the boxes on it. Can't honestly remember what happened. Mat's down in the stables now. And I still have boxes of bran up on the shelf. I live like this.
> 
> ...


I lived with a wax worm farmer once. He found it therapeutic and never done a thing with it once he'd worked it out.. Lol. But he did get something from the experience. And that's what it's all about. :2thumb:


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

dcap said:


> think about the costs and labour involved in a fully staffed insect breeding operation (does anyone reading this thread work for free?) ... the building (rent) ... the heating ... the food for the bugs ... the number of bugs they have to keep as breeders ... the cleaning ... plus the packaging ... plus the transportation to the pet shops (does the drivers drive for free or do they get a salary?) ... plus the pet shop making a profit on each tub (salary for the staff)


On a round average retail for mealworms is £2 /40/50 gram. Tesco low cost beef retail price is £2.89 /400 gram, Aldi is slightly cheaper. Therefore I assume Tescos labour, staff pension, benefits, breeding operation, building rent, heating , freezing, refrigeration, capital outlay, cleaning, health and safety, environmental health inspectors, cleaning, out of date throw-aways, packaging, transportation, share dividends must be 8 to 10 times lower than mealworm breeders. Bearing in mind Tesco occupying prime retail sites and have certain staff standards whereas livefood producers are out of town on low value agricultural sites, Tesco are amazing.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

As someone else said. It's economies of scale. Far more tonnes of beef are produced than mealworms. 

Have you just come on here to moan , looking at this thread and the other about Exo Terras?


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

colinm said:


> As someone else said. It's economies of scale. Far more tonnes of beef are produced than mealworms.
> 
> Have you just come on here to moan , looking at this thread and the other about Exo Terras?


It is always good to have a moan to get things off your chest. Also good to publicise some facts.


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## dcap (Sep 3, 2011)

my local farm shop sells dried meal worms for £35 for 5kg (including VAT)
... £7 for 1kg
... 70p for 100g
£2.80 for 400g - does this bag of dead insects, more or less, match your pack of dead meat?

some other things to consider:
- supermarket 'value meat' might be a loss leader?
- is meat farming for human consumption subsidized?
- better cuts or fillet or sirloin probably cost a fair bit more per kg than value meat
- live meal worms contain every 'cut'
- there is no VAT on food in the supermarket
- probably more households in the UK buying meat from the supermarket than there are households with reptiles, economies of scale 
- reptiles are a luxury product (see Apple or Porche for pricing of luxury items)
- (good) reptile shops are there to educate people

Mealworms are pretty easy to breed with a little bit of research and time, probably easier than bringing a live cow home and popping it in the garden and then trying to figure out why you can't have just the occasional steak from it.

What is surprizing is the price of dried mealworms that are sold as fit for human consumption. Compare that to the 'bird food grade' priced above. 

Alternatively equally bonkers things to complain about ... 
- 6x (good quality, nice flavor) apples = £2.50 
- price of an apple tree ... which might last 100 years!


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

dcap said:


> my local farm shop sells dried meal worms for £35 for 5kg (including VAT)
> ... £7 for 1kg
> ... 70p for 100g
> £2.80 for 400g - does this bag of dead insects, more or less, match your pack of dead meat?
> ...


 Mealworms at 70p for 100g = 35p for 50g seems quite reasonable in comparison to what live mealworms for reptile use cost.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Credit where credit is due. Must take my hat off to Monkfield who in the last few months since opening their new facility are producing top rank European standard Locust. Currently adult boxes are arriving with 8 or 9 alive and surviving several days. XL/5 getting up to 13 alive in some boxes and again living a decent length of times. Alas still some improvement needed for Crickets which are much better from Peregrine.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Surely the point is they can charge what they want? If you don't like it produce your own - simples!!

As with most things, we pay for convenience - I enjoy a Latte and slice of Cake while in town and I don't get much change out of £5.00. The alternative is to make my own Latte and buy a box of ready made cakes - in the long run I could save a small fortune but I *choose* not to.


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## Colin Farndell (Sep 18, 2007)

I have pondered this subject and here are some of my thoughts.

The cost of livefoods for the reptile market have changed very little in the last 30 plus years. Bargains can be found but generally the price has stayed at around £2 per tub while the quantity of crickets per tub has gone down the quantity of locusts contained per tub has increased probably due to the locusts taking over as the best selling livefood.

When they talk about cheap insect production I assume they are talking mainly about production in warmer countries here in the UK the cost of heating is a huge chunk of the production cost possibly even higher than the cost of the labour required.

Livefoods are difficult and costly to distribute here in the Uk due to the constantly changing weather and can involve the livefoods changing hands many times before they are sold in the retail outlets. Each level of distribution has to make a profit and this adds to the over all cost.

As a food for human consumption i assume that bugs would not have the 20 percent VAT added to them that livefood sales do.

Production for human consumption would most likely involve the insects immediately being killed and processed into a powdered or freeze dried form that would greatly reduce the cost of storage and distribution.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

Colin Farndell said:


> I have pondered this subject and here are some of my thoughts.
> 
> The cost of livefoods for the reptile market have changed very little in the last 30 plus years. Bargains can be found but generally the price has stayed at around £2 per tub while the quantity of crickets per tub has gone down the quantity of locusts contained per tub has increased probably due to the locusts taking over as the best selling livefood.
> 
> ...


As in most cases when it come to making things in the UK we are generally fat, lazy, greedy and inefficient. Whereas in the rest of Western Europe they are less fat, less lazy, less greedy and very productive with very efficient industries. 
As for distribution costs unless you are a high volume buyer their is a delivery charge on top of the livefood cost.


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