# Considering a 'nano' viv - tiny frogs?



## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

I'm just looking at my nano tropical aquarium on my desk and considering whether to relocate its current occupants (a male betta and four green neons) to the larger aquarium in the lounge and use the tank to set up a mini planted viv for some type of frog.

Only thing is it's a pretty teeny tank - 12 inches square with a 28L volume, and I'm reluctant to start messing around with it unless I can realistically hope to house one or two tiny frogs in it without them being cramped or suffering through lack of space. Lighting wouldn't be a problem and I suppose I would be looking to use a heatmat if extra heat was needed. I have experience with keeping various frogs as I used to work in an exotics shop, but it's been a couple of years since I played around with the really fun species like darts and RETFs, but I'm drawing a bit of a blank at the moment about what species would do well in a tank this small.

What do you guys think? Like I said, I'm just throwing ideas around at the moment. 

Here's a quick pic of the tank at the moment.


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## dinan (Jan 18, 2009)

you could keep some african dwarf clawed frogs as they stay quite small


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

Had thought about that but seems a bit of a waste as I'd rather set up a planted terrestrial or semi-aquatic viv and the dwarf clawed frogs are an aquatic species.

I wonder what the tiniest species of dart frog is? :hmm:

Or can anyone recommend a tiny but attractive species of reed frog?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Yep, Dinan, that would be my 'recommendation' too. Or maybe, if you found some REALLY tiny treefrogs. To be honest, while I find a lot of people are over-worried about available space, I'm not sure I'm even comfortable with nano aquaria, let alone viveria. As it goes, the bigger the space, the less stress/pollution/territory/decor problems you'll find. That tank would make a good quarentine area, but I personally wouldn't use it as the final living space of most amphibians.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

not much help but can i ask what are green neons never heard of them


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

adamntitch said:


> not much help but can i ask what are green neons never heard of them


Me neither- but I'm assuming VERY small fish.


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

adamntitch said:


> not much help but can i ask what are green neons never heard of them


I bought them as green neons but am not actually 100% convinced they are _Paracheirodon simulans_ as bought them as imported juvenilles from South America at 0.5cm and they've never grown past 1cm in 18 months (they were in my large main aquarium previously to being moved into the nano, so are not stunted). Physically they're the same body shape as your typical neon tetra, but have a bright turqouise/green band along the full length of the body where the neon has blue/red. Very attractive little fish, and they don't nip fins like other characins tend to either. : victory:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

9Red said:


> I bought them as green neons but am not actually 100% convinced they are _Paracheirodon simulans_ as bought them as imported juvenilles from South America at 0.5cm and they've never grown past 1cm in 18 months (they were in my large main aquarium previously to being moved into the nano, so are not stunted). Physically they're the same body shape as your typical neon tetra, but have a bright turqouise/green band along the full length of the body where the neon has blue/red. Very attractive little fish, and they don't nip fins like other characins tend to either. : victory:


 In themselves, they sound llike cool fish- but that doesn't answer the question. I appreciate that they weren't stunted, but I still have questions about nanos, even for for fish- but i have no question it won't work for frogs- especially anything bigger than a dwarf African frog.


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> In themselves, they sound llike cool fish- but that doesn't answer the question. I appreciate that they weren't stunted, but I still have questions about nanos, even for for fish- but i have no question it won't work for frogs- especially anything bigger than a dwarf African frog.


I know this doesn't answer the question - I was posting the info about the neons for Adamntitch. I am aware that this is a very small tank which was why I questioned whether the setup would work at all - the idea of a mini planted vivarium sounds nice but the logistics of kitting it out and, more importantly, being able to house frogs without compromising their welfare was my main concern, but before giving up on the idea altogether I was interested to see if anyone had suggestions (other than dwarf clawed frogs) for species that could *possibly* work in a setup this small. So far the consensus seems to be as I expected - that this tank just isn't big enough to permenantly house even a very small terrestrial frog species. Still, my betta seems more than happy so he may as well stay put for the time being. : victory:


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## mustang100893 (Nov 16, 2009)

Monte Iberia Eleuth- currently the world's smallest frog as far as i know but they are critically endangered in wild so probably not very widely available in pet trade although this has never stopped people. 
Second to this i think is the Brazilian gold frog, i know nothing of these species in captivity though just what i have read (Yes Wikipedia and google thought i'd have a gander as i was curious myself). So just to forewarn you some extra research may have to be done to back up what i have suggested. Hope something can some out of this otherwhise pretty useless info lol.:whistling2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

9Red said:


> I know this doesn't answer the question - I was posting the info about the neons for Adamntitch. I am aware that this is a very small tank which was why I questioned whether the setup would work at all - the idea of a mini planted vivarium sounds nice but the logistics of kitting it out and, more importantly, being able to house frogs without compromising their welfare was my main concern, but before giving up on the idea altogether I was interested to see if anyone had suggestions (other than dwarf clawed frogs) for species that could *possibly* work in a setup this small. So far the consensus seems to be as I expected - that this tank just isn't big enough to permenantly house even a very small terrestrial frog species. Still, my betta seems more than happy so he may as well stay put for the time being. : victory:


Credit to you for asking- and I hope you noticed nobody attacked you- just questioned. Your methods may differ, but you still base most of what you do on the animal's welfare- and you ask. Points.


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## Lew (May 31, 2009)

i can imagine a species is small enough to be housed in it , if not theres always other things , maybe just a millipede or comething, because a planted vivarium looks nice watevers in it !


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Thumbnail darts can be housed in a ten gallon, well I've seen them in tanks that small but I think that's pushing it. Just have it as a planted paludarium without inhabitants.


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Thumbnail darts can be housed in a ten gallon, well I've seen them in tanks that small but I think that's pushing it. Just have it as a planted paludarium without inhabitants.


I did consider the thumbnails but am inclined to agree that a 28L setup would still be too small, as I found even with juvie _ventrimaculatus_ and _imitator _that they use every inch available and wouldn't be happy they'd have enough space in here.

Somebody else has suggested _Heterixalus_ _madagascariensis, _but I can't seem to find any info on adult size or recommended enclosure dimensions? 

Just to clarify - I've given up on the idea of the mini viv, it was just a passing daydream while I was bored this evening, but I'd still be interested in suggestions for some more unusual small species to look up.


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## mustang100893 (Nov 16, 2009)

How about a Mantid instead? Something like an Orchid mantis, they are beautiful.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Wouldn't it be possible to 'grow' a juvenile Horned Frog in that?
I've seen them kept in the bottom of 30x30x45 exo terras, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't need the height!
Obviously they'd grow out of it.

I PM'd you about my non-feeder by the way!


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## twydell (Jul 29, 2008)

ive always wanted to do something like this to a tiny tank, when looking around the rep shops they have all these cool looking tiny fish tanks and i think "that would make a cool mini rainforest enviroment.." ... i guess you could put 1 or 2 fire belliied toad in there? or would that be cruell? hmm maybe it would be..ignore me lol.


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## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

Can I be blunt, and say not really worth the effort for frogs. I built a 12cube myself as a desk tank ages ago, and by the time you add drainage layer, background, plants etc it was tiny.

Thumnails and pumilios use, and need a decent size tank- my pumilio have similar volume to my pairs of tincs as they're so active, and require a decent space to 'establish in tank' foods etc.

You could do a really nice planted tank for an invert of some sort, or just do it as a planted tank with no occupents.


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## Lew (May 31, 2009)

i agree with the mantis suggestion , in prk they showed some species and some are amazing !


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