# Low maintenance fish keeping?



## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

I would love to have some fish, I haven't had any since being about 10, but the idea of weekly water changes puts me off.
Anyone know how to get around it?
I think I'd be looking at tropicals if it helps, marine looks like even more work.

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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> I would love to have some fish, I haven't had any since being about 10, but the idea of weekly water changes puts me off.
> Anyone know how to get around it?
> I think I'd be looking at tropicals if it helps, marine looks like even more work.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk



The only real "low maintenance" fishtank has goldfish in it and cold-water species. If you are looking for easy to maintain Tropical species, you can't go wrong w/ South and Central American Cichlids. Keep the PH around 7, temperature around 78-80 degrees F. and feed them twice daily. There is really no way around weekly water changes, it must be done on pretty much ANY fishtank, regardless of your filter. Water changes are crucial for keeping your ammonia and nitrate/nitrite levels low and fresh water is essential to every living being on the Planet.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

What puts you off about a water change?

A full gravel vac and 3/4 water change on my 100 gallon tank takes me an hour and that's mostly because of the small diameter pipe I use. The gravel vac is also the syphon and goes straight out of the door and onto the garden via a long hose. To refill I use a hosepipe, so there's no lugging buckets around and spilt water all over the place.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

If you stick to the bread and butter common all garden tropicals / entry level tropicals you shouldn't have any problems , steer clear of more sensitive fish like Discus or Rainbow Fish.

If you go for small easy to keep livebearers , guppies , swordtails , ruby tail shark , peppered coryadoras , platties , white cloud mountain minnows , numerous types of tetra you should be fine. Whilst no fish is indestructable those are amongst the hardiest aquarium species.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Get a small tank and water changes will take no time at all. About as time consuming as cleaning out a viv.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Some planted tank keepers barely change their water at all, but then you have to look after the plants.......


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> What puts you off about a water change?
> 
> A full gravel vac and 3/4 water change on my 100 gallon tank takes me an hour and that's mostly because of the small diameter pipe I use. The gravel vac is also the syphon and goes straight out of the door and onto the garden via a long hose. To refill I use a hosepipe, so there's no lugging buckets around and spilt water all over the place.


That sounds pretty stressful actually, we don't have a garden to pour it on either. If you use a hose how do you make sure it's the same temperature as the tank water? Where do the fish go while you do it?

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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

mrhoyo said:


> That sounds pretty stressful actually, we don't have a garden to pour it on either. If you use a hose how do you make sure it's the same temperature as the tank water? Where do the fish go while you do it?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


Chuck it down the sink.

Your fish stay in the tank.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

mrhoyo said:


> That sounds pretty stressful actually, we don't have a garden to pour it on either. If you use a hose how do you make sure it's the same temperature as the tank water? Where do the fish go while you do it?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


Mixer tap and digital thermometer. Fish stay in the tank! A water change doesn't mean you take all the water out. Depending on what you keep and the tank it could be 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 etc but never all the water.


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

You don't have to do large water changes. 10% weekly is fine & is what i do (although i have seven tanks).
So if you were to have a 180 litre juwel aquarium (like my vision 180). You would only need to change 18 liters, approx two buckets. Dead easy.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. Could you give me some more examples of easy to keep, interesting species? 
How would I know how much water to change?
How do I prepare a tank? I assume I don't just pour water in

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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Fishkeeping is a bit like snake keeping in a way ( I see you keep snakes ) Put it this way it can be as simple or as complex as you make it . A lot of people are happy with a basic corn snake in a RUB with a stat and a cardboard box for a hide and some newspaper as substrate , others go the whole hog and have a giant viv or convert the spare bedroom for that Retic or Burm Morph .

It's the same with fish a lot of people are quite happy with a 24"x15"x12" or 36"x15"x12" community tank with a cross section of basic fish like I namechecked earlier in the thread , a lot of others go for something more more challenging e.g "Tankbusters" Red Tailed Catfish , Arrowanas , or marine with a protein skimmer , sump and cooling fans or brackish set ups . It's upto you , it's YOUR tank . It can be as simple and low tech as you want or a full on set up costing thousands .


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm just starting out. At first it seems confusing but it's really not that difficult.

The aim thing I'd say is learning about cycling, again much easier than it first appears. It's basically getting bacteria thriving so they can eat all the nasties your fish waste produces, this is also why you need to make water changes.

A simple tank with a few hardy fish. Go for it.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'm just starting out. At first it seems confusing but it's really not that difficult.
> 
> The aim thing I'd say is learning about cycling, again much easier than it first appears. It's basically getting bacteria thriving so they can eat all the nasties your fish waste produces, this is also why you need to make water changes.QUOTE]
> 
> There is a lot of truth in the old adage " it's not the fish your keeping but the water" , if you have good water and bacteria thats half the battle and it's not half as hard as some people on here like to make out.


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## Snow_Man_UK (Nov 20, 2006)

We have had our tank for a couple of years, and I would say things are a lot easier than when I was a kid. I have a 190l Jewel corner unit with plec, cat fish and some severums. It looks very nice although I have needed to move to artificial plants.

I do a water change (20-25%) with a gravel cleaner every 14 days. I have also retrofitted an extra external filter. This really helps agitate the water and reduce filter cleans (once every four weeks).

Buying quality food also helps reduce the waste lol.

Maintenance for me is 1 hour / 1.5 hours on alternate fortnights.

Works well for me, and levels are always spot on.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

Do things get easier if you use cleaner fish etc? I suppose the water is like soil- things get eaten by the bacteria and plants help absorb the waste.
Is there a resource for beginner keepers, like tropical fish for dummies?

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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

_simon_ said:


> Mixer tap and digital thermometer. Fish stay in the tank! A water change doesn't mean you take all the water out. Depending on what you keep and the tank it could be 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 etc but never all the water.


how does that work may I ask?
How do you aply your tap water conditioner? 

I can syphon my water out into the garden via a pipe which makes life easier, but when it comes to filling up Its the hard way with buckets and pre mixing de chlorinator.


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> Do things get easier if you use cleaner fish etc? I suppose the water is like soil- things get eaten by the bacteria and plants help absorb the waste.
> Is there a resource for beginner keepers, like tropical fish for dummies?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


To a degree yes.

But there is no substitute for changing water im afraid, this is because there is no way to remove nitrates from your tank, nitrates are the end product of the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle, although nitrates are not deadly to fish if left for too long or get very high they will stress,stunt growth and even kill fish.


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

Actually, there are ways to remove nitrates.... Live plants. :2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

johne.ev said:


> Actually, there are ways to remove nitrates.... Live plants. :2thumb:


But they'll require attention to keep them thriving, fertilisers etc. So you may aswell just make the water changes!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

al-qaeda fish are great... you barely feed them and never change the water... hell! you don't have to do much of nothing for them!:lol2::lol2:


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

I do a big water change ie over 50% 2 or 3 times a year. The plants keep the nitrate low so I don't see the need to do water changes more often. 
Floating plants are the best as they grow really fast due to them being able to get as much CO2 as they need from the air as well as plenty of light so they consume the nitrate phosphate etc pretty quickly.

Also you can get filter media that anerobic bacteria can grow in which will break down the nitrate into nitrogen, you can also get stuff that will absorb phosphorous. I've tried these and they work but I gave up using them as my floating plants can do it just as well. I have an RO unit to produce RO water which i mix with normal tap water to make soft water but I live in a very hard water area and am only able to grow vallis & hornwort without using RO water. The hard water isnt very good for most of the fish either but if you live in a soft water area then you wont have that problem.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

I disagree w/ everyone's post here except Kell boy. 50% water changes once a week are a rule of thumb and anyone stating otherwise FTMP, has been misinformed. It's a shame there are so many fish keepers who don't know how to maintain properly.

As far as hardy species go, there are very few if ANY that can tolerate conditions more than a Texas Cichlid, Jack Dempsey, Jaguar Cichlid, Convict Cichlid, Jewel Cichlid , Red Devil/Midas or Flowerhorn hybrid. These fish are easily the hardiest and mostly easy to care for, so long as your tank can facilitate the ones that reach a large size. Oscars are a good choice, but they appear to have rather weak immune systems and are prone to disease, especially Hole-in-the Head, partially due to their eating habits and excessive amounts of waste they produce. 

Not only are they hardy and aggressive, they are among the most beautiful and colorful fish that are ket in aquariums today. In my experience, if you're going to keep a tank, do it right, do it good and go "luxury". For just a little more effort, you can have a stunning show-piece tank that captivate you and your friends, and it is a scientifically proven fact that fishtanks reduce stress levels in people. I mean, you don't buy a Mercedes for $80,000 and get the basic edition, do you? Hell NO!!! You get the nicest, sweetest, most luxurious one you can find!!! Perhaps I should post a few pics of my masterpieces for gawking. 

Also, i don't mean to sound like an *ssh*l*, but could people stop posting opinions and start staying to facts only, please. I've noticed all but a select few people in the fish section seem to think their opinions are factual and this misleads alot of people into believing what is incorrect. Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of correcting people as a result of this.

" guppies , swordtails , ruby tail shark , peppered coryadoras , platties , white cloud mountain minnows , numerous types of tetra you should be fine. Whilst no fish is indestructable those are amongst the hardiest aquarium species."

^^^^^Seriously that was the best joke I read all day. The concept of any one of those species being hardier and easier to maintain than SA/CA Cichlids is totally comical and should not be taken seriously. No offense.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

If you're going to pull people up on incorrect posts don't make your own so vague. If there's something that needs correcting, quote it and explain why it's wrong. It's the only way people will learn.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

So what's right for me? Can any of the fish mentioned be kept in communities?
I remember we used to have all sorts of fish at one time, my favourites were the elephant nose and the little tiger catfish things. Ideally I'd want both of those species again at some point in the future.

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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> " guppies , swordtails , ruby tail shark , peppered coryadoras , platties , white cloud mountain minnows , numerous types of tetra you should be fine. Whilst no fish is indestructable those are amongst the hardiest aquarium species."
> 
> ^^^^^Seriously that was the best joke I read all day. The concept of any one of those species being hardier and easier to maintain than SA/CA Cichlids is totally comical and should not be taken seriously. No offense.


And heres me with 10 tanks , 25 years experience ( including trade )and a degree and I know F*** all :whistling2: and where did I say SA / CA cichlids aren't hardy or are more difficult ? You reccomended a newbie who has stated he isn't keen on water changes to get Oscars and Jaguar cichlids ( which both grow 12" + ) ....two of the messiest feeders who need a lot of water changes !


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

lionfish said:


> And heres me with 10 tanks , 25 years experience ( including trade )and a degree and I know F*** all :whistling2: and where did I say SA / CA cichlids aren't hardy or are more difficult ? You reccomended a newbie who has stated he isn't keen on water changes to get Oscars and Jaguar cichlids ( which both grow 12" + ) ....two of the messiest feeders who need a lot of water changes !




Well, they are in fact easier to keep and the OP hasn't stated what size tank he will be using, so im coaxing him in the right direction. There's not much rewarding about keeping most of the fish you mentioned. He wants easy low maintenance, and you can't get much easier than typical 7.0-7.4 PH from tap water and fish that can be kept on a staple pellet food their entire life. The fish u mentioned will need flake food, which not only is very messy and clogs filters faster, but also loses much of it's nutritional value once it hits the water.

If anything Jaguars are easier for their willingness to take live prey, which i supplement w/ crickets due to feeder fish being a breeding facility for disease, however a pair of Convicts or Jewels to breed will provide the Jaguars or other Cichlid plenty of nutritious "white" meat assimilating their natural diet in the wild. My Jaguars typically swallow their prey whole. Oscars don't have to be messy fish as long as they are not over-fed, a common mistake made even by experienced Keepers. 

I respect your experience level, but IMO, what you were suggesting is not the easy way at all.Oscars were my 1st fish which I cared for at 11 years old, alone. After getting out of fish for 15 years, i moved on to larger and more aggressive Cichlids, which i found were rather easy and low maintenance, as well as very rewarding for the viewer and I have successfully bred nearly every species I own, as well as some i dont own anymore. It's not always about how much time you put in, it's what knowledge you have and how well you apply it.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

I have kept both Oscars and Jaguar cichlids too ...great fish , with personalities  At the moment I'm (trying / hoping ) to breed Spotted climbing perches -Ctenopomas .


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Victor Creed said:


> I disagree w/ everyone's post here except Kell boy. 50% water changes once a week are a rule of thumb and anyone stating otherwise FTMP, has been misinformed. It's a shame there are so many fish keepers who don't know how to maintain properly.


Im pretty sure if i changed 50% of my water a week, i'd cause a lot more deaths than my current 20% water change every 2/3 weeks. 

but obviously you know better cause you keep big fish.

:roll:


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

lionfish said:


> At the moment I'm (trying / hoping ) to breed Spotted climbing perches -Ctenopomas .


Oooft! Good luck with that haha! Having any sucess?

i really love these fish, used to have 8 but had to get rid


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

lionfish said:


> I have kept both Oscars and Jaguar cichlids too ...great fish , with personalities  At the moment I'm (trying / hoping ) to breed Spotted climbing perches -Ctenopomas .


I never kept them....how are they? I don't know much about them...are they anything like typical SA/CA Cichlids or what? If you have any questions on enticing a spawn, i may have some tricks and tactics that may be helpful.

EDIT: nvm, they don't even slightly resemble SA/CA Cichlids nor are they even Cichlids or "True" Perches. Hmmm, how about that....people and our common names. Anywho, here's some breeding info I found if it may help you: 

Breeding
"A large, well planted tank should be used for breeding. As these fish are bubble nest builders, the addition of floating plants will help them. The water should be soft and acidic with a reduced water flow. Once the fish have spawned, they should be moved to another tank. The fry can be fed on Infusoria initially; as they grow their diet can consist of newly hatched brine shrimp."


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> I never kept them....how are they? I don't know much about them...are they anything like typical SA/CA Cichlids or what? If you have any questions on enticing a spawn, i may have some tricks and tactics that may be helpful.


They're quite shy / nervous fish , but behaviour wise are a bit like cichlids , I have them in a 6 foot tank , lots of rocks , bog wood , plastic pipes etc - they use the pipes to hide out in much like say a kribensis would , I only really get a good look at them at feeding time . When I removed the cichlids I found I saw a lot more of the Ctenopomas . At the moment breeding plans are on hold , they share a tank with a Gibbiceps , Silver Dollar and my last Tin foil Barb . Any spawning tips or ideas are always welcome


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> EDIT: nvm, they don't even slightly resemble SA/CA Cichlids nor are they even Cichlids or "True" Perches. Hmmm, how about that....people and our common names. Anywho, here's some breeding info I found if it may help you:
> 
> Breeding
> "A large, well planted tank should be used for breeding. As these fish are bubble nest builders, the addition of floating plants will help them. The water should be soft and acidic with a reduced water flow. Once the fish have spawned, they should be moved to another tank. The fry can be fed on Infusoria initially; as they grow their diet can consist of newly hatched brine shrimp."


yeah they're Anabantids from Africa , related to Gouramis nand Paradise Fish , very intersting critters , I can highly reccommend you to try them  I'm off to bed now a its getting late here , out of interest Victor , what are you keeping at the moment ?


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

lionfish said:


> yeah they're Anabantids from Africa , related to Gouramis nand Paradise Fish , very intersting critters , I can highly reccommend you to try them  I'm off to bed now a its getting late here , out of interest Victor , what are you keeping at the moment ?



I have a breeding pair of Jaguars, a harem of Jack Dempseys that equals 1.4.0 (the male has spawned w/ 3 of the 4 females EIGHT TIMES and i can't figure out why there hasn't been a single hatch yet...my guess is he's sterile), a breeding pair of Convicts plus 2 more females, a small pair of Green Terrors/Gold Saums, a pair of Jewels and another possible pair), about 8 or 9 Flowerhorns, a Blue Acara, a Texas Cichlid, a few (6-8) small Melanochromis auratus/cyanaerhabdos hybrids ( i sold the parents cuz i'm done w/ Africans), Striped Raphael, Channel Catfish, Haplo Catfish, Eclipse/Sun Catfish, Synodontis (African Featherfin Catfish), Pardalis Pleco, Multiradiatus Pleco, as well as a few nurseries housing baby Convicts and Jaguar Cichlids atm and a stunning, very large white Midas Cichlid w/ small traces of orange on the fins and around the eyes.

I listed all species as a group, but they are distributed thoughout MANY different tanks, and alot of the stuff I have is only temporary since I breed, sell, trade, etc fairly frequently, so there is alot of moving around constantly and stuff like that. All my fishtanks are heavily decorated and stacked w/ numerous caves, PVC pipes, flowerpots/strawberry planters, wood and several hundred pounds of slate w/ distinguished territories and hide-spaces to keep aggression minimal and it has worked out great. Many of my singular larger specimens will be for sale once they reach the desired size.

I have a lot to say about enticing spawns, so i'll save it for tomorrow since it will probably be a big post and i might should just make a new thread for it and request a sticky, since it would benefit the entire Community in turn.  PZ


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## jakk (Jan 22, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Some planted tank keepers barely change their water at all, but then you have to look after the plants.......




thats me!: victory:


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Get a small tank and water changes will take no time at all. About as time consuming as cleaning out a viv.


You would have to do them more often though.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> I disagree w/ everyone's post here except Kell boy. 50% water changes once a week are a rule of thumb (is it? who said??) and anyone stating otherwise FTMP, has been misinformed. It's a shame there are so many fish keepers who don't know how to maintain properly (ok mate, you tell all us who have nothing but success breeding all manner of species of rarely imported fish where we have been going wrong).
> 
> As far as hardy species go, there are very few if ANY that can tolerate conditions more than a Texas Cichlid, Jack Dempsey, Jaguar Cichlid, Convict Cichlid, Jewel Cichlid , Red Devil/Midas or Flowerhorn hybrid. These fish are easily the hardiest and mostly easy to care for, so long as your tank can facilitate the ones that reach a large size. Oscars are a good choice, but they appear to have rather weak immune systems and are prone to disease, especially Hole-in-the Head, partially due to their eating habits and excessive amounts of waste they produce.
> 
> ...


50% water is far too much. Removing too much bacteria from the water there. I would never go for more than 25% and even that would be in an extreme case (i.e. ammonia spike or nitrites were high). I have never and will never do a 50% water in one go whilst I have fish in the tank, it's too much, too soon.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

The guy wants a low maintainance aquarium so I would say he has a couple of options depending on a number of things.

First of all I would test the water that comes out of the tap where you live. Test if for pH and general hardness, or look it up on the website of your local water board, or ring them. They are obliged by law to supply that information to you.

Once you have the information you need then you can think about the fish. If it's the first time you have kept fish then you want to make sure they are hardy and that they do grab your interest. Tropicals will definately be best for you. Unlike what someone said on here, goldfish are not easy to look after or low maintainance. They are incredibly dirty fish and need well oxygenated water too.

Another thing to consider is the size of the tank you have. I always recommend getting the biggest tank you can afford and house because bigger tanks are easier to maintain because any pollution in the water is diluted more so has less affect on the fish and gives you more time to clean it out.

With regards to water changes, there is a huge difference of opinion on this thread and that is understandable. It is very dependant on what fish you keep, how many you have, how big the tank is etc. I would say as a rule stick to 10% per week. This would just keep the water ticking over and would prevent any dangerous build ups of waste.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> The guy wants a low maintainance aquarium so I would say he has a couple of options depending on a number of things.
> 
> First of all I would test the water that comes out of the tap where you live. Test if for pH and general hardness, or look it up on the website of your local water board, or ring them. They are obliged by law to supply that information to you.
> 
> ...


at last someone said it :lol2: goldfish are a difficult species to house and keep healthy and happy unless you have a very large tank with big filtration. they are not for the novice fish keeper if you want your fish to thrive on low maintenance.


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## nickcradd067 (Jan 27, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> at last someone said it :lol2: goldfish are a difficult species to house and keep healthy and happy unless you have a very large tank with big filtration. they are not for the novice fish keeper if you want your fish to thrive on low maintenance.


I salute your skills keeping those pooing machines! :lol2:


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

Anyone got any answers for me? It seems to have descended into chaos since I was last on.

Just checked the website and my water has a ph of 7.76 and is soft with 16.5mg/l calcium.
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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> 50% water is far too much. Removing too much bacteria from the water there. I would never go for more than 25% and even that would be in an extreme case (i.e. ammonia spike or nitrites were high). I have never and will never do a 50% water in one go whilst I have fish in the tank, it's too much, too soon.


I don't know about other species of fish but as said before my passion is puffers which I have been keeping rougly 4 years now( and normal tropicals since my very 1st tank at 8 years old)

These are extremely messy dirty fish, enough so to make goldfish and oscars blush.

They have a very varied and very high protein diet being predator fish, here is example of what I feed mine -snails,cockles,mussels,prawn,squid,winkles,crab claws etc.

Any Uneaten food is removed immediatly, as is any giant sized poos these fish do If I can spot them.

Now to my point, Ive kept most species of puffers I owned (bar one) in more then adequate sized tanks ( at adult age)to help dilute the build up of nitrates, and anything less then 50% a week is not enough, most keepers at the puffer forum will agree with me on this.

I currently keep a new fahaka puffer I have with 12 tiny danios in a 5x2 100g tank, this SHOULD be adequate when he is an adult provided cleaning is kept up but Ive known some tanks to get 50 nitrate ppm build up in a WEEK, they are just that messy.

If you know anything about puffers, you will know they also sensitive, after moving them from tank to tank or upsetting them they will go off food, my new one i picked up saturday has had one "proper" meal since being home. 2 Things

One, if 50% water changes where that stressful, they would go off their food, Ive yet to had this happen to any of my puffers once theyre established,

two, Ive yet to have any tank get "new tank syndrome" from doing 50% water changes weekly,

Any ammonia or nitrites will kill a puffer very very quickly as they have o scales, this also means you will see ammonia burns quickly as well.
Ive never had any of these related problems from doing 50% water change a week.

Im not saying its nessacary for all fish as I said you lot are more experienced then me, Im saying it is not stressful to fish as people make out, the cleanest the water can be the hapier they will be.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

ok, it appears this thread is getting into what could be described as a 'microsoft/mac debate'

firstly lets get one common misnomer out of the way, the amount of denitrifying bacteria held in the water column is negligible, it doesnt like to be free floating, it prefers something to anchor to.

secondly, water changes depend totally on the excess NItrates produced, every tank is different, but the NItrates should be kepts as low as possble, <25ppm is the commonly recognised figure, and it doesnt matter if it takes a WC of 10%, 15%, 25%, 50% or even more, if thats what it needs, thats what it needs.
BUT in my opinion , amounts over 25% should be split over the week.
However, changing 50% of the water over the week is NOT of detriment to the fish, and definitely not of detriment to the filtration capabilities so long as a good dechlorinator is used and the temperature isnt vastly different.
Without a test kit however no-one has a clue where their Pet Water is, whats the point in saying a 10% water change every week is fine if that means that there is still and excess of 5ppm Nitrate every week, after just 8 weeks or less fish are going to start to wither away as that adds up.

A low maintenance Aquarium would be Understocked, Over filtered and Over Planted (with low maintenance plants such as Hornwort)

Firstly, only stock 50-75% of what the recommended stocking is for the tank, and get as large a tank as you can justify, that way less waste is produced, and the water is more stable.
Check what your water params are and tailor you stock to suit.
Pick a filter that is rated for twice the tank size (ie if its a 100lt tank then get a filter rated for a 200lt), that way the filter has more surface area and will go longer between cleanings, on a good one you can always turn down the flow if you feel its too fierce. You cant over filter a tank, its impossible, there will only be as much bacteria as ammonia and nitrite is produced.
And throw in a bit of hornwort, its been proven that hornwort has the best results at using nitrate and doesnt have great needs in lighting.


Whatever route you choose a WC needs doing every week, unless you want to spend money on adding trace elements back manually, fish also need these, all fish, and there are only two ways of giving them, either via chemicals bought from the LFS or easily and simply by WCs.

If you dont have 30 minutes to set aside once a week to clean and care for the fish....well, i can recommend a good aquarium screensaver instead


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

im gonna give my 2ps worth here.

i have kept fish for over 20 years, from goldfish to full reef tanks.
i do water changes, but only when the water tests tell me it needs doing, and never left too long if the wter is bad of course.

even on marine reef tanks i barely do water changes. top up with fresh water for salinity etc but i certainly dont do weekly changes.

if you have an overstocked tank and less filters than needed then yes, water changes need to be more regular, but if you have adequate filtration and flow then water changes become less regular.

you just need to be watchful of stats.

but, if its simply tropical fish like tetras, guppies, gouramis etc then id say water changes maybe once a month, and no more than 25% each time.
if the water tests show high readings then you should do a larger or more regular changes.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

kell_boy said:


> how does that work may I ask?
> How do you aply your tap water conditioner?
> 
> I can syphon my water out into the garden via a pipe which makes life easier, but when it comes to filling up Its the hard way with buckets and pre mixing de chlorinator.


I pour the conditioner (Seachem prime) into the tank as the water is going in.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> im gonna give my 2ps worth here.
> 
> but, if its simply tropical fish like tetras, guppies, gouramis etc then id say water changes maybe once a month, and no more than 25% each time.
> if the water tests show high readings then you should do a larger or more regular changes.


the problem there is that a fully stocked, lightly planted tank with nominal filtration will produce in excess of 25ppm NItrates per week, so above the recommendations


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> im gonna give my 2ps worth here.
> 
> i have kept fish for over 20 years, from goldfish to full reef tanks.
> i do water changes, but only when the water tests tell me it needs doing, and never left too long if the wter is bad of course.
> ...


yes it depends how much your tank is stocked to your nitrates rising but filtration pays no part whatsover

You can have overkill filtration (like I do, 900g turnover an hour on a 100g tank) and you will still get high nitrates if heavy stocked, the only thing good filtration will stop is ammonia and nitrites from appearing if a tank is underfiltered, in which case the filter would be to weak for tha tank/stock level.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's pointless to get into aquatics if you're not wanting to work at it...

learning and tinkering is what it's all about with the hobby...

most all fish are easy to keep if you know what you are doing and have solid experience... saying that, most fish just require slightly different conditions... not that one is harder than another per se... just different... this is where the study and practical application comes into play...

know water chemistry like a second language and develop you intuition... learn to read your tank and fish...

the more you know, the more fun you will have and the more satisfaction you will enjoy...

low maintenance fish? what's that?... you mean tough fish that can take abuse?

aquatics is generally a personal thing... that's why fish keepers argue and disagree so much... each experienced keeper finds his own way... style... but they always agree on the fundamentals... if they indeed are experienced...

me?... i prefer small, very frequent water changes... massive biological filtration and tanks that are set up for the species that you keep... and i won't have an unplanted tank... in most cases

but that's me... what do i know?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

HABU said:


> it's pointless to get into aquatics if you're not wanting to work at it...
> 
> learning and tinkering is what it's all about with the hobby...
> 
> ...


Here here!

When you take on the responsibility of a life LOOK AFTER IT PROPERLY....DONT SKIMP


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

HABU said:


> it's pointless to get into aquatics if you're not wanting to work at it...
> 
> learning and tinkering is what it's all about with the hobby...
> 
> ...


this is true, I wish I could have a planted tank, unfortunately puffers like to TRASH everything, or dig it all up by blowing the substrate everywhere! I miss the old days of a nice planted tank, I did once try planted with a young MBU puffer it didnt go too badly....except replanting 20-30 plants a day :lol2:

I use fake plants for my current tank for this reason, I might put some floating ones in though, I had some kind of lillies in there once, they came as a "surprise" plant in a large online order I did, they did so well they actually sprouted bulbs with lovely white flowers on the surface!!


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

HABU said:


> it's pointless to get into aquatics if you're not wanting to work at it...
> 
> learning and tinkering is what it's all about with the hobby...
> 
> ...



i like this post. you wouldnt keep a hamster in a cage and not clean it out when it needs it just because it can potter about on an inch of messy bedding, as it wont thrive, it will live though. i dont understand people who want the pets but dont want the work that goes along with them.

i personally am a big believer in huge weekly water changes. on all of my tanks i have always done 50-60% weekly, sometimes up to 80% on my goldfish. my fish thrive, grow well, rarely if ever suffer any disease and i cant remember the last fish i had that became ill. i have had several successful breedings where i have grown on the fry, from fancy goldfish to rainbows, corys and of course live barers and convicts. right now im growing out 34 new cory catfish which i hatched out 4 days ago. they get a 50% water change daily even at this young age, ive lost 1 so far but he was born deformed and i culled him.

even when i had a very heavily planted tank, i still changed out 40-50% of the water each week. its just how i do things. i wouldnt keep any other pet in a cage/tank/enclosure that i wouldnt do a good clean out on every week so my fish get the same :2thumb:

my dad has a 4ft tank with a few live plants, veyr heavily stocked, and he does maybe 20% water changes every 3-4 weeks, i hate that he does this, and he hates that he often suffers fish die offs, but he is too lazy to do it more often :rant2:each to their own i guess. i do whats best for my fish.


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> i like this post. you wouldnt keep a hamster in a cage and not clean it out when it needs it just because it can potter about on an inch of messy bedding, as it wont thrive, it will live though. i dont understand people who want the pets but dont want the work that goes along with them.
> 
> i personally am a big believer in huge weekly water changes. on all of my tanks i have always done 50-60% weekly, sometimes up to 80% on my goldfish. my fish thrive, grow well, rarely if ever suffer any disease and i cant remember the last fish i had that became ill. i have had several successful breedings where i have grown on the fry, from fancy goldfish to rainbows, corys and of course live barers and convicts. right now im growing out 34 new cory catfish which i hatched out 4 days ago. they get a 50% water change daily even at this young age, ive lost 1 so far but he was born deformed and i culled him.
> 
> ...


Glad Im not the only one who hasnt had problems with big water changes each week, everyone does things differently but I find this way works better for me, especially as my tap water has trace nitrates in it, the bigger water change I do in one hit the more chance Ive got at keeping it low : victory:


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

nickcradd067 said:


> 50% water is far too much. Removing too much bacteria from the water there. I would never go for more than 25% and even that would be in an extreme case (i.e. ammonia spike or nitrites were high). I have never and will never do a 50% water in one go whilst I have fish in the tank, it's too much, too soon.



Opinions are sometimes correct, as you can see mine clearly is, however I would much rather read opinions w/ a possibility of being correct than the completely FALSE information you just typed in this paragraph. Natural Bacteria is concentrated in the filter, gravel and decor, not much at all in the water itself. This is only like the 27th time it has been mentioned in this section in the past few days. Did u even read the entire thread before you started typing?


Aside from the quoted post, this thread has really livened up w/ some great posts, some factual and some opinion, but enlightening non-the-less. I must say I agree don't get a pet you are not willing to devote the time to care for and BIGGER the tank, the easier it is to maintain. Kell Boy and Steve have been totally killin' it with the great posts and helpful info and I also read some good posts from Habu as well. Keep it up guys. Let's get these myths and mis-nomers out of the "water" so the new generation has all the tools they need to do it right.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

So far it seems like how often the water needs changing is a matter of opinion. 
Obviously I'm willing to dedicate time to the fish but this thread was started to learn how I could keep them in an easy way. Nobody enjoys spending hours cleaning things, especially me, which is why I chose to keep reptiles and I don't keep rodents. I much prefer just having to spot clean and change water bowls every couple of days to having to strip, clean and disinfect a mouse cage three times a week.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

i have to agree that it really is all about patience and dedication.

give the tank the attention it needs and you will soon settle into a regular pattern of maintenance, you will learn your tank and also how things work properly.

someone said the following somewhere, and it has stuck with me ever since.
you dont keep the fish, you keep the water.

trial and error is the key, but not to the point where you are killing animals.

personally im speaking with marine tanks in mind, but the same applies for freshwater too.

there are so many different "rules" in regards to stocking levle,s flow levels, filtration etc, it can be daunting at first but if you read between the lines and take info from each case then you will soon pick it up and understand what you need to do to maintain a healthy and happy aquarium.


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> So far it seems like how often the water needs changing is a matter of opinion.
> Obviously I'm willing to dedicate time to the fish but this thread was started to learn how I could keep them in an easy way. Nobody enjoys spending hours cleaning things, especially me, which is why I chose to keep reptiles and I don't keep rodents. I much prefer just having to spot clean and change water bowls every couple of days to having to strip, clean and disinfect a mouse cage three times a week.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


to keep fish in an easy way, you just need to understand how water works and thats pretty much it.

as long as you have the correct equipment for the animals you are keeping, and can simulate the natural conditions to a decent level then thats it.

freshwater fish - correct size tank, adequate enough filtration, lighting, food, heating and decoration for aesthetics and for the fish to feel comfortable and safe
marine - same as above but more in depth when it comes to filtration, water quality and lighting for corals. 

no fish is any harder to keep than the next, as long as you research properly and put in the time to really do things right first time. you cannot cut corners with fish keeping, eventually it will end badly


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

Is there anything like a how-to guide? I know various reptile species have a manual on theory care e.g. "The Bearded Dragon Manual"

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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> Is there anything like a how-to guide? I know various reptile species have a manual on theory care e.g. "The Bearded Dragon Manual"
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk



there are care sheets for almost every fish species on the internet. they are very helpful and can actually teach you more than you think.

what fish are you looking to get ideally?


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> > Is there anything like a how-to guide? I know various reptile species have a manual on theory care e.g. "The Bearded Dragon Manual"
> >
> > Sent from my HTC
> 
> ...


I'm open to anything, I wouldn't mind the elephant nose fish or clown loaches I mentioned earlier. I like different looking fish, as fat away from a goldfish shape as possible.

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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

both elephant nose and clown loaches require pristine water conditions, ergo more wotk, more frequent water changes.

if you are willing to keep the water 100% perfect then go for it, if not then leave them and go for something else


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> I'm open to anything, I wouldn't mind the elephant nose fish or clown loaches I mentioned earlier. I like different looking fish, as fat away from a goldfish shape as possible.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


Unfortunately for you these type fish that arent like goldfish arent the "low maintenance" fish you desire,

Elephant nose fish are very sensitive fish, theyr scaleless, so detoriating water quality will kill them, they require dim lighting, feeding at lights out and MUST be kept on a smooth fine gravel or sand because they bury into it. Your looking at a 4t tank + with a PH of 6-7 depending on what your tap water is like is hard to achieve.

Clown loaches, size is the problem here, these guys can actually get very big, Ive seen some in london aquarium in the 12" region, they need to be kept in groups as they get security this way.

What else you thinking about, your best bet is to go through care sheets of what fish take your fancy and as HABU said earlier, design the tank around what you want to keep, this way you have the best chance of creating a healthy habitat.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> both elephant nose and clown loaches require pristine water conditions, ergo more wotk, more frequent water changes.
> 
> if you are willing to keep the water 100% perfect then go for it, if not then leave them and go for something else


Any examples of what else?

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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

Have you thought of perhaps just a smallish pretty planted tank with a Betta (Siamese fighter)?


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

mrhoyo said:


> Any examples of what else?


what sort of fish are you looking for? there's 1000s of species, so it's hard to suggest any.

are you looking for community fish? i.e. peaceful fish that can be kept with each other. or do you want a single bigger, rougher fish? predators? pretty little fish?

tell us what you want and we can help


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

As VictorCreed said there have been some great posts in this thread sine I last logged on , hats off to Habu & Victor . I wouldn't reccommend Long Nosed Elephant Fish to a newbie , for the simple reason they require a livefood diet ( blood worms etc ) and they're scaleless so sensitive to copper based meds . In terms of what is low maintanence it's all relative and down to individual opinion and experience . Someone suggested Goldfish as low maintanence , I won't keep goldfish as they are so messy , grow big and also their not my thing at all . To the thread starter - what size tank are you thinking of getting ? As for books look out for anything by Dick Mills ( he is still with us , I bumped into him at Fish Fest a fortnight ago . He has a way of imparting info in a way that doesnt over complicate or over simplify his subject matter .


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

really to give you ideas of species you can keep, we really need to know what size tank you wish to have.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

I thought getting the water conditions to suit the requirements of the fish and maintaining them was part of the pleasure of owning fish?

With very few exceptions, I wouldn't ever contemplate less than weekly water-changes. If this is too much then maybe fish aren't the best choice. 

Please note that I'm not trying to put you off getting fish... the more people that get enjoyment out of them the better. 

As previously mentioned, to cut down on maintenance then you want a large volume of water, lots of filtration and a small bio-load on the tank.

You really need to understand how water works, what waste does to it and how to rectify it. 

Personally if I were you, I'd go for shelldwellers. They're happy in a tank with not much going on it bar some shells, sand and other bits of decor. They're not messy fish, and being cichlids they're full of character. Whilst they're hardiness does not excuse negligence, I'm sure they'd withstand pretty much any mistakes thrown at them allowing you to learn from it. Chances are they'll breed to...


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> As VictorCreed said there have been some great posts in this thread sine I last logged on , hats off to Habu & Victor . I wouldn't reccommend Long Nosed Elephant Fish to a newbie , for the simple reason they require a livefood diet ( blood worms etc ) and they're scaleless so sensitive to copper based meds . In terms of what is low maintanence it's all relative and down to individual opinion and experience . Someone suggested Goldfish as low maintanence , I won't keep goldfish as they are so messy , grow big and also their not my thing at all . To the thread starter - what size tank are you thinking of getting ? As for books look out for anything by Dick Mills ( he is still with us , I bumped into him at Fish Fest a fortnight ago . He has a way of imparting info in a way that doesnt over complicate or over simplify his subject matter .


I would think anything up to 4x2x2 is possible for me size wise, any bigger would be awkward to move if needed. 
I would prefer a community of fish, I don't like a single species enough yet to want to just keep one and setting up multiple tanks would ve expensive both space, time and money wise.
I'm totally open to fish ideas, I've never had to look after any myself, the last I had were those "pets" children have but the parents look after.
Out of interest, do people keep amphibians/inverts with their fish? I'm sure it would make life harder but it would add an extra dimension to the display.

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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

mrhoyo said:


> I would think anything up to 4x2x2 is possible for me size wise, any bigger would be awkward to move if needed.
> I would prefer a community of fish, I don't like a single species enough yet to want to just keep one and setting up multiple tanks would ve expensive both space, time and money wise.
> I'm totally open to fish ideas, I've never had to look after any myself, the last I had were those "pets" children have but the parents look after.
> Out of interest, do people keep amphibians/inverts with their fish? I'm sure it would make life harder but it would add an extra dimension to the display.
> ...


What I do with my tanks is go for specific Biotopes , or themes eg South East Asian , Amazon , Goodeid / Mexican , West African , maybe this could be an area for you to look into and reasearch ....there is a lot of info on different biotopes on the practical fishkeeping magazine website. As for a mixed tank of fish and inverts / phibs / herps there is something caled a paludarium ( spelling ? ) which is part land , part water , but they take a LOT of looking after .


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

What types of fish do you like? I think different people like different familys of fish
eg 
catfish
characins
cyprinid
cichlid
live bearers
rainbow fish
loaches

Do you like small or big fish?
do you want to keep other stuff like shrimp, frogs, snails?

I personally like catfish particularly plecs and synodontis, characins such as metynnis, chalceus and a few tetra, loaches, and a few oddballs.
I've never been interested in livebearers and not really interested in cichlids apart from a few of the dwarf species.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> What types of fish do you like? I think different people like different familys of fish
> eg
> catfish
> characins
> ...


I like various things, I'm surprised how attractive I find guppies for example. Just seen a picture of a kuhli loach, that was awesome. Eel shaped things always seem so different from regular fish

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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

mrhoyo said:


> I like various things, I'm surprised how attractive I find guppies for example. Just seen a picture of a kuhli loach, that was awesome. Eel shaped things always seem so different from regular fish
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


Guppies are underated , I'm a member of the B.L.A British Livebearer Association and livebearers are my thing  A lot of people won't have heard of them , but I like wild type livebearers esp the Goodeidae genus , a family with approximately 36 members from Mexico , that are impossible to find in LFS's , that are unusual in that they have an umbilicus ( Umbilical Cord ) . If you want to see some pictures of interesting and unusual livebearers go on Facebook and type in Viviparous ( this is the FB page of the Viviparous website , which is shortly returning bigger and better ! NB if anyone wants to join the viviparous Facebook group or join Viviparous Forums you'll be made more than welcome


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

4x2x2 would make for a very colourful Malawi Cichlid tank but you'd need advice from knowledgeable Malawi keeps on what is compatible.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Guppies are underated , I'm a member of the B.L.A British Livebearer Association and livebearers are my thing  A lot of people won't have heard of them , but I like wild type livebearers esp the Goodeid genus , a family with approximately 36 members from Mexico , that are impossible to find in LFS's , that are unusual in that they have an umbilicus ( Umbilical Cord ) . If you want to see some pictures of interesting and unusual livebearers go on Facebook and type in Viviparous ( this is the FB page of the Viviparous website , which is shortly returning bigger and better ! NB if anyone wants to join the viviparous Facebook group or join Viviparous Forums you'll be made more than welcome


Did George Farmer not use them in a recent scape? Stunning fish if they are what I think they are!


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> Did George Farmer not use them in a recent scape? Stunning fish if they are what I think they are!


I haven't heard about it if he did , point me in the direction of a url if you can


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Mexican-themed biotope - Practical Fishkeeping Forum


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

hippyhaplos said:


> Mexican-themed biotope - Practical Fishkeeping Forum


Cool , thanks .....disappears off to read ......


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I love George's tanks.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

The man is an aquascaping legend... did you see him on tv?

I'm not a massive fan of marine tanks, but he done one- it's on UKAPS somewhere, and it's amazing!


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Victor Creed said:


> I disagree w/ everyone's post here except Kell boy. 50% water changes once a week are a rule of thumb and anyone stating otherwise FTMP, has been misinformed. It's a shame there are so many fish keepers who don't know how to maintain properly.
> 
> As far as hardy species go, there are very few if ANY that can tolerate conditions more than a Texas Cichlid, Jack Dempsey, Jaguar Cichlid, Convict Cichlid, Jewel Cichlid , Red Devil/Midas or Flowerhorn hybrid. These fish are easily the hardiest and mostly easy to care for, so long as your tank can facilitate the ones that reach a large size. Oscars are a good choice, but they appear to have rather weak immune systems and are prone to disease, especially Hole-in-the Head, partially due to their eating habits and excessive amounts of waste they produce.
> 
> ...



Weekly 50% water change my ass. Don't generalise. The only fish i'd expect that to be necessary for are large fish, fed plentiful meaty foods with heavy mechanical and biological filtration but little or no planting. Nitrate removal therefore being essential in the form of heavy water changes.

I ran a fantastic pretty heavily stocked tropical tank of 36"x15"18" with tiger barbs, juvenile clown loaches and rainbowfish which was intensely planted and had 2 external filters and some pretty heavy flow. The fish were some of the brightest, best conditioned and coloured fish i've ever seen and the tank more than survived with 10ppm nitrate (pretty good considering london tapwater comes out at 40ppm+). It was only brought to an abrupt halt 2 weeks before a tank upgrade by my half sister pouring a tub of Tetra Prima in when I wasnt there and killing EVERYTHING.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

Has anyone got a link to a list of popular fish? So far I know I like guppies, bettas, corys and kuhli loaches although I don't think the first two can be kept together because of fighting.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

fishboy said:


> Weekly 50% water change my ass. Don't generalise. The only fish i'd expect that to be necessary for are large fish, fed plentiful meaty foods with heavy mechanical and biological filtration but little or no planting. Nitrate removal therefore being essential in the form of heavy water changes.
> 
> I ran a fantastic pretty heavily stocked tropical tank of 36"x15"18" with tiger barbs, juvenile clown loaches and rainbowfish which was intensely planted and had 2 external filters and some pretty heavy flow. The fish were some of the brightest, best conditioned and coloured fish i've ever seen and the tank more than survived with 10ppm nitrate (pretty good considering london tapwater comes out at 40ppm+). It was only brought to an abrupt halt 2 weeks before a tank upgrade by my half sister pouring a tub of Tetra Prima in when I wasnt there and killing EVERYTHING.



.....and the one thing on Planet Earth that is essential to all lifeforms to survive, thrive and be happy IS......???????















*DING DING DING* YOU HAVE WON THE GRAND PRIZE WITH THE CORRECT ANSWER OF "FRESH WATER"!!!!!!! Congratulations Fishboy, you'll be moving on to our last round for Final Jeopardy. :2thumb:


No, but on a serious note, if you don't do a 50% once a week, you should do two 25% separated by 3-4 days and even then you always have to keep an eye on your levels....which is why I keep a high Natural Bacteria count in filter, gravel and decor (AND buy it in the bottle as well) and do one 50% every week. No exceptions, and I've even been sick in bed and STILL dragged myself downstairs to do them cuz they MUST be kept up with.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> Has anyone got a link to a list of popular fish? So far I know I like guppies, bettas, corys and kuhli loaches although I don't think the first two can be kept together because of fighting.


If I were you I would go round a local fish shop with a pen and paper and write down the names of the fish that take your fancy, then come home and research them and work out what you can keep.

I personally wouldn't mix bettas and guppies.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

hippyhaplos said:


> If I were you I would go round a local fish shop with a pen and paper and write down the names of the fish that take your fancy, then come home and research them and work out what you can keep.
> 
> I personally wouldn't mix bettas and guppies.


Great idea, there is a rather large fish place literally a minutes walk away. I suppose the fish I like will decide the tank size I need? Are the biorbs any good?


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Bio orbs are the work of Satan - glorified goldfish bowls with not enough surface area and a large price tag . As H.H said don't mix Bettas and Guppies .....a male Betta will attack a male Guppy ( it happened to me once ) .


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

lionfish said:


> Bio orbs are the work of Satan - glorified goldfish bowls with not enough surface area and a large price tag . As H.H said don't mix Bettas and Guppies .....a male Betta will attack a male Guppy ( it happened to me once ) .


I might go and have a look in the fish place tomorrow if I get chance. The mrs has a thing for black moors too, I don't suppose they're compatible with the others I like, being coldwater?


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## boisterous_billy (Oct 12, 2010)

kell_boy said:


> and anything less then 50% a week is not enough, most keepers at the puffer forum will agree with me on this. *Agreed i to have puffers.*
> 
> I currently keep a new fahaka puffer I have with 12 tiny danios in a 5x2 100g tank, this SHOULD be adequate when he is an adult provided cleaning is kept up but Ive known some tanks to get 50 nitrate ppm build up in a WEEK, they are just that messy. *How on earth do you get away with that keeping a fahaka puffer with danios i knoow there fast but them fahaka's are right sods and will kill anything. (norm)...?*
> 
> ...



But my malawi tank and my 2 convict tanks i do really when needed i top up when needed and water changes once a month if there lucky unless the prams are out.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

mrhoyo said:


> I might go and have a look in the fish place tomorrow if I get chance. The mrs has a thing for black moors too, I don't suppose they're compatible with the others I like, being coldwater?


'fraid not , although you could keep white cloud mountain minnows , rosy minnows , Hill stream Loaches with them .


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> I disagree w/ everyone's post here except Kell boy. 50% water changes once a week are a rule of thumb and anyone stating otherwise FTMP, has been misinformed. It's a shame there are so many fish keepers who don't know how to maintain properly.
> 
> As far as hardy species go, there are very few if ANY that can tolerate conditions more than a Texas Cichlid, Jack Dempsey, Jaguar Cichlid, Convict Cichlid, Jewel Cichlid , Red Devil/Midas or Flowerhorn hybrid. These fish are easily the hardiest and mostly easy to care for, so long as your tank can facilitate the ones that reach a large size. Oscars are a good choice, but they appear to have rather weak immune systems and are prone to disease, especially Hole-in-the Head, partially due to their eating habits and excessive amounts of waste they produce.
> 
> ...




um, from readin your post it does sound as if you have NO clue about fish keeping.
50% weekly? why would you do that?
changing that much water so often will decrease build up of beneficial bacteria in water and actually be detrimental to the aquarium.

also, i would never say cichlids are hardier than tetras or guppies, at all.

also, as someone previously mentioned, you moaned about people posting "opinions and stay to the facts" well, maybe you should take your own advice. what exactly have you come in and had to correct people on? ive only seen your comments in this post, and so far you havent actually corrected anybody, just shot them down with your own opinions and OTT water changes.

what kind of fish keeper would recommend cichlids over guppies and swordtails?? 

ive kept all kinds of fish for over 20 years, and i know i still dont know everything and probably never will! its peoples opinions and experiences that keep this hobby going, new techniques and ideas etc.

put it this way. IMO marine fish are as easy to keep and maintain as freshwater fish. even a reef setup is as simple.
but, if you lack the knowledge and dedication to look after them properly then no fish is hardier than another.

I'd personally like to hear your theories behind 50% weekly changes and also a bit more background into your fish keeping. without spinning us all a load of crap please.

end of the day the OP came here to ask a few simple questions about fishkeeping, something we are all here to help out with.
you came wading in shooting down everyones persona experiences and opinions while at the same time spouting out yours in a very negative and unhelpful way.

back on topic though, seriously, go to your LFS and look at the fish on offer. If nothing cathes your eye, look on the internet for different types and species. Read up on them, then read some more.
make sure you have everything you need well in advance of actually buying livestock and make sure you dont rush things.

fishkeeping is a very rewarding pastime and all it asks from you is some time, money (of course) and some real dedication in what your doing.

no one here can actually hold your hand and choose the fish with you, thats up to you buddy 
we can only offer advice and help based on our on experiences 

saying that though, if you want a good idea for a community tank, then ive always gone with the "standard" fish.
guppies, tetras, gouramis, corydorus, platys and other "hardy" fish species. i use the term "hardy" loosely because a fish is only tolerant of so much toxicity in the water so always aim for none at all! no bad stuff in water = happy and active fish


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Pearson Design said:


> um, from readin your post it does sound as if you have NO clue about fish keeping.
> 50% weekly? why would you do that?
> changing that much water so often will decrease build up of beneficial bacteria in water and actually be detrimental to the aquarium.


there's hardly any bacteria in the water. literally none. you could replce 100% of the water and not to any damage to the bacteria colony. 

the only problem i see with something as large as 50% water changes is temperature changes and pH changes. I'd say 20-30% weekly is a more "normal" amount. But if you've got a tank full of large preds, 50% is a good amount. :2thumb:


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

had to laugh at the 50% water change a week bit lol i keep rope fish, pacu ,oscars,black ghost knifes, and a few others and have never heard of such big water changes every week unless theres a problem with he tank i change 25% ever two weeks and never had any problems in years


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> No, but on a serious note, if you don't do a 50% once a week, you should do two 25% separated by 3-4 days and even then you always have to keep an eye on your levels....which is why I keep a high Natural Bacteria count in filter, gravel and decor (AND buy it in the bottle as well) and do one 50% every week. No exceptions, and I've even been sick in bed and STILL dragged myself downstairs to do them cuz they MUST be kept up with.


oh my god, again with the 50%??
how the hell are your tanks getting that dirty in a week? you must be overfeeding or doing something you shouldnt be!

i have a lionfish setup here, right next to me actually. it houses 2 volitans and a red toothed trigger.
Lionfish are VERY messy fish, i feed them once every 3 days, and the trigger is fed once a day.
the levels in my tank never go over 5ppm and i do a 10-20% change every 3 weeks. i dont add bottles bacteria or any other supplement other than trace elements for my corals in this tank and the odd bit of purple tech for coraline algae growth

so basically your trying to tell me that your freshwater (im assuming its freshwater, correct me if im wrong) with some medium sized fish gets dirty enough every week to require a 50% water change?
how??
even if i pissed in my tank once a week and dropped a dead rabbit in there it wouldnt b bad enough to warrant 50% weekly changes!
do you have a filter? what setup do you have exactly?


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

my old volitan tank had 3 large volitans, over a foot each, a panther grouper at almost 14inches, a large yellow tang, a puffer and some damsels and even when feeding daily the water never got dirty enough to warrant a water change that large!

i see your point about the bacteria in the water, but i still cannot for the life of me fathom why anyone would need to do a 50% change a week!

its something that in 20 years of fishkeeping ive never ever heard of! and i know people with all different types of setups from mudskippers and fiddler crabs to sea dragons and rays! (not in the same tank obviously lol)


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

i'm sorry but 'poo pooing' (pun intentend) 50% WC is a pretty petty thing to do.

my mainstay is Mbuna and to THRIVE they NEED pristine water.
i used to have problems with getting the females to hold full term and the odd occurence of Bloat, but on one of my last trips to Tanzania i took water samples and tested them and my results were:
PH 7.9
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
NItrate <5ppm

so on my return i worked out that to get my water to these stats REQUIRED at least 50% over the week, so thats what i do....25% on Weds and 25% on Sat/Sun

My show tank is 4x2x2, overstocked to reduce aggression and filtered by 2 Aquis 1000 externals and a Fluval 4+ for extra oomph, oxygenation and surface agitation.
i feed them Spirulina flake, red crumb and New Era with a frozen Brine Shrimp boost every few days
My water stats remain stable at Ph7.8 and buffered by a wall of Limestone (thats what my tapwater is too), Amm 0, Nitrite 0 and NItrate <5ppm and my fish breed prolifically, even my wildies

So, tell me i'm stupid for doing so if you wish, but i do these water changes because obviously my fish need this to thrive

Comparing FW with Marine is like comparing apples with oranges, liverock and skimmers both help lower nitrates and we dont have that luxury in FW


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> i'm sorry but 'poo pooing' (pun intentend) 50% WC is a pretty petty thing to do.
> 
> my mainstay is Mbuna and to THRIVE they NEED pristine water.
> i used to have problems with getting the females to hold full term and the odd occurence of Bloat, but on one of my last trips to Tanzania i took water samples and tested them and my results were:
> ...



Dude, Steve ur a great guy and very intelligent, but have to say I'm withdrawing from this thread. We got amatuers here still trying to say there's Natural Bacteria concentrations in the water, people arguing over their personal opinions and so delusional they BELIEVE they are speaking facts, and all this occurs AFTER several of us have already explained everything very thoroughly w/ supporting data to conclude why. It's like these people just want to argue, aren't reading the thread fully or are like 12 years old. I'm out, man....i can only repeat myself so many times before i get aggravated. Personally, I reccommend you do the same, cuz we are indeed beating a dead horse and judging by some of the posts, we might have better luck getting a DEAD HORSE to comprehend what we are saying, as well as pay attention and read 1st. It's been fun.


Dude....did u hear what he said ???? Tetras are easier to keep and hardier than Cichlids??? ROFLMAO!!!! No wonder the most educated people on this site don't post anymore.....it's pointless to try and teach some of these people anything.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

mrhoyo said:


> I like various things, I'm surprised how attractive I find guppies for example. Just seen a picture of a kuhli loach, that was awesome. Eel shaped things always seem so different from regular fish
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


I love Khuli loaches, ive got about 4 black ones and 10 black/yellow striped. They are quite easy to keep but they do hide away a lot but then that kind of makes it more special when you do actually see them. If you like eels then check out spiny eels & reedfish although these get a lot bigger.
Guppies are probably the easiest fish to breed so you could end up with a tank full of them. They do prefer hard, slightly alkali conditions so you might not be very successful if you have soft water but you could try getting 2 or 3 and see how they go. I've never kept them but I like endlers guppies.
Fighters are good, I've kept one or two but you have to be careful with what you put with them, tiger barbs for example would be too tempted to nip on their fins. I used to torment mine by showing it a mirror.


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

adamntitch said:


> had to laugh at the 50% water change a week bit lol i keep rope fish, pacu ,oscars,black ghost knifes, and a few others and have never heard of such big water changes every week unless theres a problem with he tank i change 25% ever two weeks and never had any problems in years


To do 25% a week or for an adult fahaka puffer fish in 5 or 6ft tank would not be enough 25% every other week is laughable, they are extremely messy fish, I could get a larger tank so the dilution would be better but growing to 18 inches a 7 foot tank is overkill when they have to live completely alone, Im much happier with a 5-6ft tank and changing the water more often, just because "you havent had problems" What does that mean? They havent died? Or that your nitrates dont increase week by week?

Everyone does everything different but just slating 50% water changes without knowin what other people keep is a bit ignorant.

Oh and when I 1st started out, I had a growout tank that at 1st I was changing 25% once every two weeks, I tested for nitrates and guess what the reading was, 80ppm,

It all depends on what your tank has in it, how heavily stocked and WHAT they are fed, whole protein foods that you must feed puffers and other meat eaters foul the water faster because of their high protein content.


I cant remember the reason why but in marine systems I think nitrates dont increase as much as in freshwater systems although theyre dangerous levels are lower, around the 40ppm mark,

EDIT heres the reason why thanks steve!


[email protected] said:


> i'm sorry but 'poo pooing' (pun intentend)
> Comparing FW with Marine is like comparing apples with oranges, liverock and skimmers both help lower nitrates and we dont have that luxury in FW


, I have kept a marine puffer which only needed 25% a week, fortunate really, as I only had enough buckets to pre mix that amount of water :lol2:


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i really dont get the issue with large water changes, i have always done them on my tanks, yes i do occassionally let my planted tank lapse a week here and there, but my goldfish tank is 50% minimum every weekend. the bacteria do not live in the water, well not enough to affect the cycle in the tank, as long as the new water is pre-treated with dechlorinator it will have zero effect on the tanks stability. my test kit went out of date a while back, so rather than leave them in the hope the levels are safe, i change out a lot of the water to ensure they are safe,which i did anyway even when i did test my water, my goldie tank was reading ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 20 before a water change. im happy to do this, the fish are thriving, and growing well, and so i see no issue. my water is treated, temperature matched, and the fish are fine :2thumb: i say dont flame people for big changes, better big regular changes than small changes as and when the levels dictate as i feel if the fish arent used to it that can stress them more. just my opinion.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm still not sure how often I would need to do a water change. 

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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

I change 75% a week! Tank housing a Tiger Oscar, 4 Polypterus, 1 Sailfin plec and 4 Silver Dollars. I feed once every other day with relatively clean foods such as Tetra Doromin, Hikari Cichlid Staple and Hikari Massivore. Filtered with an FX5. It's a decorated tank with a deep gravel bed and a sponge based background, so plenty of places for bacteria to grow.

With the amount of waste those fish produce over a week I wouldn't do any less. I match the temperature of the water going back in and have never had any kind of illness with those fish so I am perfectly happy to continue 75% changes.

I don't class myself as any type of expert, I just know what works for my particular set up. I'm sure someone will come on freaking out at 75% anyway though.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

mrhoyo said:


> I'm still not sure how often I would need to do a water change.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


More than likely once a week. If it's bothering you that much though then to be honest I'm not sure fish are really for you?


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## g7paf (Oct 16, 2010)

if the whole idea of caring for the fish puts you off try this
Aquatica virtual aquarium and tropical fish screen saver - virtual aquarium, 3d screen saver, fish tank
no real care needed :gasp:


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> > I'm still not sure how often I would need to do a water change.
> >
> > Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
> 
> ...


They do seem to be quite a pain in the arse although I'm sure if everyone on here was to believed nobody would keep fish.
I would like to know how often to change the water so that if I get some fish u don't have them swimming in toxic water accidentally.
If changes need doing once a week what happens when people go on holiday for a fortnight?
Is there any real difference in aquarium brands? I've noticed that some are really expensive compared to others.
What would I need to start with? Tank, heater, filter...?
Thanks for all the replies, I'm still lost with water changes because everyone keeps contradicting each other but at least I've got a few fish ideas.

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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

_simon_ said:


> I change 75% a week! Tank housing a Tiger Oscar, 4 Polypterus, 1 Sailfin plec and 4 Silver Dollars. I feed once every other day with relatively clean foods such as Tetra Doromin, Hikari Cichlid Staple and Hikari Massivore. Filtered with an FX5. It's a decorated tank with a deep gravel bed and a sponge based background, so plenty of places for bacteria to grow.
> 
> With the amount of waste those fish produce over a week I wouldn't do any less. I match the temperature of the water going back in and have never had any kind of illness with those fish so I am perfectly happy to continue 75% changes.
> 
> I don't class myself as any type of expert, I just know what works for my particular set up. I'm sure someone will come on freaking out at 75% anyway though.


I have the fx 5 its a beast filter :2thumb:
75% a week id say is very good for the fish you have got there : victory:


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> They do seem to be quite a pain in the arse although I'm sure if everyone on here was to believed nobody would keep fish.
> I would like to know how often to change the water so that if I get some fish u don't have them swimming in toxic water accidentally.
> If changes need doing once a week what happens when people go on holiday for a fortnight?
> Is there any real difference in aquarium brands? I've noticed that some are really expensive compared to others.
> ...


If you go on holiday its no drama, none of us are saying leaving it one week is gonna kill your fish it just keeps them more healthy, If i go on holiday I do about 80% water change over a week before I go, about 3 days apart, so 40% each time. the Just do it when your back.

We are all contradicting each other because we all keep different things which some is messy and some arent, Ive tried saying it does depend on what you keep, others seem to think its never nessacary I strongly disagree,

however, if big water changes scare you do as steve said earlier, get a good sized tank, understock it with lots of live plants and 25% a week should be fine: victory:


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> if the whole idea of caring for the fish puts you off try this
> Aquatica virtual aquarium and tropical fish screen saver - virtual aquarium, 3d screen saver, fish tank
> no real care needed :gasp:


Did I once say I wasn't prepared to care for them? Do you think I would still have animals if I didn't look after them? 
The thread was started to find out how to look after fish EASILY. The last thing a beginner wants is a load of testing, cleaning, water changes etc so I asked which fish were easy to care for and wouldn't just drop dead if I messed up.
I bloody hate those screen savers.

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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> Did I once say I wasn't prepared to care for them? Do you think I would still have animals if I didn't look after them?
> The thread was started to find out how to look after fish EASILY. The last thing a beginner wants is a load of *testing*, cleaning, water changes etc so I asked which fish were easy to care for and wouldn't just drop dead if I messed up.
> I bloody hate those screen savers.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


You will have to test though dude, without testing your water your basically flinging a sword around blindfolded, you just don't have any way of knowing your parimeters.

Do you understand the Nitrate cycle yet? Ill send you a link if not


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> > Did I once say I wasn't prepared to care for them? Do you think I would still have animals if I didn't look after them?
> > The thread was started to fin
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't it something like waste - ammonia - nitrite - nitrate? The last is the least toxic? If I knew what level to get them at I'm assuming I could test the water and then work out how often I would need to change.

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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> Isn't it something like waste - ammonia - nitrite - nitrate? The last is the least toxic? If I knew what level to get them at I'm assuming I could test the water and then work out how often I would need to change.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


basically yes, and you now already understand that bacterial colonies mostly populate your fiilter, but your gravel and decor too,

What is important to know is that the bacteria colonies are different, one type turns the ammonia into nitrite, then another from nitrite into nitrates, obviously its important to have both, but they do require Oxyen, which basically means to thrive they need to have a current going through them, this is why filters have sponges and other parts inside so as the water goes through the bacteria on the sponges are getting oxygenated water with the nasties that they eat!

If you had a long powercut for instance, you would need to monitor your parimeters closely, as you could have a mini cycle as some bacteria could die off, it wouldnt take very long to get back to full strength though,

The whole process with a new tank can be as little as 2 weeks to be fully cycled or up to 4 months, My large tank being the latter as i messed up the cycle.

You would be best off learning about fishless cycling, as this risks no fish this way, there is a sticky at the top of the section.


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

this thread was started by a beginner to ask simple advice.
they simply are not required for every situation! or even at all imo.
but thats MY OPINION!!

right, MRHOYO, you want to setup a tank yes?

ok, you will need a filter, a powerhead for extra flow around the tank, adequate lighting if you intend on adding live plants etc.
you should also get a test kit, unless your LFS offers this for free like mine.
you will need to read up a lot on how to start up a tank, but the basis is simple.
add water, decorate, leave for a week then test water, if things are ok add ONE fish, leave a few days and test again, if everything is ok again then maybe add ONE more fish.
starting a tank takes time and patience, and if you try and rsh it things will usually go wrong.

forget everything these idiots have been saying about massive water changes because they keep fish you wont be having in your tank.
even then, the fish they have arent as messy as they seem to think, unless you are doing something wrong that is.

so, shopping checklist is:
Tank
Hood or top for tank
Lighting
Powerhead
Heater
Filter, either internal or external
rockwork, bogwood, plastic plants if you wish.

once you have all that and have left it to mature for an adequate time then you really wont have any problems.

in regards to water changes, this is HOW IVE ALWAYS DONE IT, and i truly believe there is no definitive "rule" when it comes to water changes.
If the water is dirty, change it, if it isnt then leave it alone.
I rarely do water changes on freshwater tanks mainly because i keep them in good condition and the water is never bad.
if you keep on top of things and dont overfeed/overstock etc then you shouldnt face any problems with bad or high levels in a community tank.
of course, if a fish dies in the tank this will cause problems

sorry to have turned this thread into a row, but some people clearly know nothing and like to force their ridiculous theories on others just to sound good and knowledgeable. actually what they are doing is putting off a potential hobbyist and making themselves look retarded.

im happy to help you out and give you my own personal experiences with fishkeeping, but what i will not do is preach ideas of my own and make out its the only way to do it! its trial and error like i said before, and once you settle into a routine you will learn your tank and have no problems at all.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

I may get abuse for suggesting this but Tetra Safestart can be used for cycling. It's basically a bottle of bacteria.

Tetra UK - Products - Tropical Aquarium - Care & Remedy - Care & Remedy - Tetra Water Care - Tetra SafeStart

I used that on a Malawi tank and again when I set up my current tank. Some people will recommend it, some will say it's the work of the devil and won't go near it. It worked for me on 2 separate occasions so I'd say it was worth looking at but then again I am apparently an idiot, so perhaps ignore me


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

_simon_ said:


> I may get abuse for suggesting this but Tetra Safestart can be used for cycling. It's basically a bottle of bacteria.
> 
> Tetra UK - Products - Tropical Aquarium - Care & Remedy - Care & Remedy - Tetra Water Care - Tetra SafeStart


ive never used them but i know people who have, some people with good results, others not so good.

it appears to me that so long as the store keeps them cool and doesnt sell 'out of date' stock (it has a very short sell by date) then it should be fine.

personally i think that fishless is the way to go, especially for a new keeper, that way learning to use a test kit correctly is done without any risk to the fish.

but if it works for you then excellent :2thumb:


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> ive never used them but i know people who have, some people with good results, others not so good.
> 
> it appears to me that so long as the store keeps them cool and doesnt sell 'out of date' stock (it has a very short sell by date) then it should be fine.
> 
> ...



i agree, a fishless cycle is best, but of course adding one fish when levels are good helps no end


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Frequently asked questions on fishless cycling | Features | Practical Fishkeeping


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> jesus christ!
> victor creed, you are a complerte penis.
> 
> this thread was started by a beginner to ask simple advice.
> ...


Cheers, that is the kind of reply I was after. Are there any brands of equipment that are better than others?
When adding one fish are there any which will fare better than others? I don't want to put something like a singly guppy in if it will get stressed out without others.
I've decided I definitely want guppies, any suitable tank mates/fish to avoid?

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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

no problem 

as for fish id go with mollies, platys, guppies or maybe some corydorus catfish to start.

ive always cycled my freshwater tanks with guppies and black mollies, even cycled my marine tank with black mollies 

as for equipment i'd recommend either eheim or fluval for filters and powerheads, most equipment is pretty much the same in regards to filters and heaters


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

water changes?

just look at nature... how often is fresh water changed in the rivers?... creeks?... most all lakes have a stream or river constantly delivering fresh water and another stream or river taking water from the lake or pond... rains too...

tanks are closed systems.... very few bodies of water in nature are closed... they are open.... 

frequent water changes opens your tank system a bit...

as water ages in a tank it changes over time... the conditioned tap water is always the same... water changes help to stabilize the water chemistry in a tank... the more frequent the changes... the more stable the water...

waiting weeks and months to change water... or doing huge water changes all at once causes the chemistry to bounce...

ideally you would have water trickling into a tank constantly and water leaving the tank at the same rate... like in nature... and inlet and outlet... but that's rarely done...

weekly, smaller water changes are a good compromise that creates a semi-open system essentially... the smaller W.C. won't impact the chemistry of the tank very noticeably... like a 50% one will... and being frequent, they won't allow the ph and other parameters to slide as the tank water ages... because there in a constant influx of fresh tap more or less...

new tank syndrome... old tank syndrome... those go away with frequent, smaller changes... that what?... take five minutes to do and aren't dramatic enough a change for the fish to much notice...


a syphon and 5 gallon bucket... like a pickle bucket is a fish keeper's best friends...

stability is the name of the game with fish and aquatics in general...

so look at where your fish hail from... a tropical stream?... when do those recieve fresh rain water? a lake? is there not a constant flow of water into a lake?... and how does the water leave?... evaporate?... no... a stream always flows from a lake... unless it's the salton sea or something...

fish get used to water conditions over time... even bad ones... and seem to thrive... then go put a new fish in that old water... and watch it stress out many times...

change that water frequently...


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## boisterous_billy (Oct 12, 2010)

One other thing when you do go to your LFS dont buy more than 6 fish at any one time even tho LFS will sell you what you want.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> water changes?
> 
> just look at nature... how often is fresh water changed in the rivers?... creeks?... most all lakes have a stream or river constantly delivering fresh water and another stream or river taking water from the lake or pond... rains too...
> 
> ...


If I could get that constant trickle I would be very, very happy. It doesn't seem like anyone is doing it though.

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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> no problem
> 
> as for fish id go with mollies, platys, guppies or maybe some corydorus catfish to start.
> 
> ...


When I've done a cycle without fish how many should I add at once? Guppies and corys are nice but at what stage should I add larger, more impressive fish?
Live plants sound good, are there any which are recommended for beginners?
How much lighting would I need?

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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my old tank... the last tank i had... kept it for years... the plants too... some were like ten years old or so... they live and propogate forever...


























cory cat eggs... they always bred like crazy...


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> When I've done a cycle without fish how many should I add at once? Guppies and corys are nice but at what stage should I add larger, more impressive fish?
> Live plants sound good, are there any which are recommended for beginners?
> How much lighting would I need?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk



the lighting isnt actually necessary for the fish, its more for the plants. obviously you dont want a dark tank lol.
id go for stadard T8 freshwater tubes, usually about £12-£20 depending where you buy them. you will need a starter unit for the lights aswell, unless your tank has a light fitting built into the hood/top.

as for adding more fish, just keep an eye on the stats of the water, make sure they are all low or zero.
generally though after a few weeks of adding just 1 or 2 fish at a time you can start adding 2 or 3 at a time until the max stocking is reached

fish like gouramis and maybe some gold barbs can be added after a month or so, maybe sooner.

in my experience of freshwater fish keeping ive never had a problem with adding too many fish at once, as long as your filter is running and has been for a few weeks to build up th bacteria needed.

i agree with what boisterous_billy said, the LFS will always try to sell you more than you can have, its the way they work. not all shops are like that, my LFS is very good and will not sell any livestock unless you have a perfect water sample for them to look at.

this was my oldest freshwater tank, i only have marines now though









EDIT - ooops, sorry forgot about plants lol
ive always had luck with cabomba, elodea crispa, amazon sword, java moss and hygrophilia. and for substrate ive always used argos kids play sand, its totally safe for all fish and is also a good substrate for plant growth  IMO that is of course  lol


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

That looks great, the water is crystal clear. A bit too heavily planted for my tastes, I bet the fish loved it though.
What were the plants and what lighting did you use?

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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

my tank was a juwell vision 180, bow fronted tank. 
i had tha standard T8 light fitting built into hood. holds 2 strip tubes both of which were regular freshwater bulbs

you can get different types, some specially designed for plnt growth but ive no tred them befor so cant comment on them im afraid


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

mrhoyo said:


> That looks great, the water OS crystal clear. A bit too heavily planted for my tastes, I bet the fish loved it though.
> What were the plants and what lighting did you use?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


 
my tank?

yeah... the fish always like a well planted tank... things can hide... fry especially... bullies can't bully when weaker fish have a safe place to get away from it all and chill...

plants?... wisteria... grows like mad but sucks out pollutants... amazon swords of course, easy to keep... ludwigia... cryptocoryne... bacopa... anubis... best to stick with the easy ones... less fussy plants...

just river gravel... grow bulbs, basic ones... a full spectrum bulb... again, nothing fancy... every once in a while some iron supplement... a general fertilizer on occasion..

plants can be dead easy... just have to be patient...

one secret thing i always did for my planted tanks... have the tank positioned somewhere where it can get some bright, indirect light and preferably where it can get maybe an hour or two of direct sunlight... just where it can flood the tank for a bit with some strong natural light...

they respond to natural light like crazy if it's only for a while each day... too much and problems can happen... algae and so on...

well rooted and thriving higher plants suck the excess nutrients up that so often cause problems... 

plants turn and otherwise nice aquarium into a real ecosystem...

once you go planted and see great results you never go back... unless plants cause problems... like a mbuna tank or something...

despite what you've read or heard... a little natural sunlight is a good thing with aquatic plants...

they'll grow towards the window even...


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Mr Pearson, methinks you should watch your language in a family forum.

As you have the right to your opinon, Mr Creed has the right to his.

There is no need to debase into profanity, or even any excuse to.


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Mr Pearson, methinks you should watch your language in a family forum.
> 
> As you have the right to your opinon, Mr Creed has the right to his.
> 
> There is no need to debase into profanity, or even any excuse to.



sorry, i shall go correct it, but you can see my point surely?
he cant come in here spouting off about how he runs his tanks then in almost the same sentence say people should stick to facts.

it only confuses and puts new keepers off, and thats not right.
fish keepers should be a community, helping each other out when needed.

EDIT - cant edit the post now, so maybe a mod can do it for me


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> sorry, i shall go correct it, but you can see my point surely?
> he cant come in here spouting off about how he runs his tanks then in almost the same sentence say people should stick to facts.
> 
> it only confuses and puts new keepers off, and thats not right.
> fish keepers should be a community, helping each other out when needed.


Wrong message Im quoting but that argos playsand you had...

What size where the bags and how much they cost?

And did it need a good thorough clean before you put it in the tank.

I want my puff daddy on sand I always kept my others on sand in the past but my current tank has black very fine gravel, its a dificult and delicate operation to swap over substrate but I do love keeping them on it as they show better natural colouration and can bury:2thumb:


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

kell_boy said:


> Wrong message Im quoting but that argos playsand you had...
> 
> What size where the bags and how much they cost?
> 
> ...



its about £2.50 for a 25kg sack  i didnt clean it first though, but you can. im not sure its required, but if you dont then you do get a few bits of silt on the surface


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> > sorry, i shall go correct it, but you can see my point surely?
> > he cant come in here spouting off about how he runs his tanks then in almost the same s
> 
> 
> ...


It's only about 3 quid for something like 15kg. Can't comment about cleaning though, never used it for fish.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> its about £2.50 for a 25kg sack  i didnt clean it first though, but you can. im not sure its required, but if you dont then you do get a few bits of silt on the surface


 
Awesome, I payed through the teeth for my current stuff! 2 bags of that should do it as I used 2.5 bags of 20kg current stuff,

Ill look into getting that stuff when its a good time for me to swap it over:2thumb:


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

So do fish do well on sand? Doesn't it weigh a lot more than gravel? Anything that would utilise a sand substrate?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

most fish do better on sand, especially bottom dwellers that like to sift little morsels from it, and it doesnt wear away their barbules like gravel does 

i use white silica sand in all my tanks


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

kell_boy said:


> Awesome, I payed through the teeth for my current stuff! 2 bags of that should do it as I used 2.5 bags of 20kg current stuff,
> 
> Ill look into getting that stuff when its a good time for me to swap it over:2thumb:


I get my play sand in Wilkinsons hth .


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> most fish do better on sand, especially bottom dwellers that like to sift little morsels from it, and it doesnt wear away their barbules like gravel does
> 
> i use white silica sand in all my tanks


 Agree 100% it's also better for the plants roots and helps them grow better in my experience , A friend in Germany uses trumpet snails - swears by them , she says she uses them to keep the sand turned over .


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Agree 100% it's also better for the plants roots and helps them grow better in my experience , A friend in Germany uses trumpet snails - swears by them , she says she uses them to keep the sand turned over .


they get out of hand VERY quickly though, I had a couple sneak in with plants, a month later , easily 200!! you have to turn the lights out to get em to come out then you can get them.

If the tanks well planted then the roots stop any toxic bubbles, but if not I just use a stick that I just swish around every so often :2thumb:


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Snails are a great excuse to get loaches though


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

lionfish said:


> Snails are a great excuse to get loaches though


Indeed! Well I thought it was ok and let my puffer eat them, I noticed he was struggling ( this was a Green spotted puffer in a diferent brackish tank) then after doing research found out they are the only ones you must not feed them!! As theyre so hard the shells can crack their teeth! 

You own puffers you get a snail problem and you cant use natural culling! Great!

Once I got mbu later he was big enough to easily break them and eat 4-5 at a time, I used to dump tonnes in there for him it was like he was eating crisps!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

lionfish said:


> Agree 100% it's also better for the plants roots and helps them grow better in my experience , A friend in Germany uses trumpet snails - swears by them , she says she uses them to keep the sand turned over .


 
they are great!!!

http://www.planetinverts.com/malaysian_trumpet_snail.html


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

wow the responses on this thread can really get out of hand. 

as has been said, people vary greatly in how they keep and maintain their tanks. i am a large frequent water changer and it works well for me and my pets. its up to others if they wish to leave their tanks longer, i have friends with tanks they swear are healthy as the water is clear, no matter how many times i say its the filter pulling the particles out not the quality of the water they are looking at they dont hear it and dont water change more than a few times a year. saying that their tank is somewhat planted and isnt overstocked. each to their own. i advise to do regular weekly water changes so as to not shift the balance too much with the clean water. its up to whoever reads if they wish to do this. 

if you get a decent size tank, a filter (i love the fluval filter 3+ and 4+, and i run fluval fx5s on both my big tanks) and dont go crazy with stocking too many or too larger fish then you should have very little issues with a 20% water change each week. i dont see a need for a powerhead though, my fluval 4+ create a fair amount of water circulation,and with the venturi it creates a lot of surface aggitation too. ive never used a powerhead myself. 

i think ideally you will need for a simple set-up which is easily maintained-

tank (3ft-4ft is a good sized starter tank,big enough for choice,small enough to allow for quick easy water changes)

stand (purpose built as tanks are very heavy when filled)

hood (wooden to match a nice cabinet stand or metal clearseal types,up to you)

light starter unit unless the hood has one built in,and a tube 

filter (for a 3ft tank id go with a fluval 3+, for a 4ft id go for a 4+, or two 3+ one at either end)

heater if you want to keep tropicals, and a thermometer.

substrate (i prefer gravel and do use a gravel vac when cleaning out, i also keep corys on it with no issues, some keepers prefer sand, but i wasnt keen as it showed up the poops between water changes,plants grow well in gravel too)

plants, live if you want to, will help with you cycle process and most community type fish love them. i always have live plants in my tanks, even if its just some free floating cabomba.

dechlorinator to be added to any and all tap water before it goes into the tank

good quality liquid drop test kit, cost around £20, dont bother with strips as they can be very inaccurate. if you use your aquatics centers to test you water for you, make sure you get real readings not just a 'your water is fine' and that they use a liquid drop test kit.

i have never left a tank empty for a week before adding fish, i leave for a day with heater and filters running to make sure the water is a good temperature and any free floating bits from new gravel etc are dealt with. then i add a couple of small fish. nowadays i just swap some old filter media from another tank into the new tank filter and it almost instantly cycles the new tank, i just stock slowly and test daily. water changes are done very regularly until the tank is cycled (ammonia and nitrites at 0, nitrates readable)

at the end of the day, if you want the best for your pets, you will do whatever is needed to keep them at their best. if weekly water changes and gravel vacs sound like too much effort, then fish probably arent a good idea. my 4 ft tank takes me around an hour or so to gravel vac, drop around 50% water out, swish out the filter medias in old tank water and re-fill, so really isnt that much effort really. i just drop the hose in the tank, start a syphon directly into the garden out of the window, leave a net covering the end of the hose in the tank and leave it running. i gravel vac into a large 10g flexitub thing which i drag into the garden. 

if you want to keep guppies, try to avoid nippy fish such as barbs, danios can be a bit nippy if in small groups, definately avoid siamese fighters. 

for a larger centerpiece fish, maybe a pearl/lace gourami pair. very pretty fish,and will deal with the tons of fry the guppies will produce. 

cory catfish are nice, they school well, nice and active, come in many colours and are great at cleaning up food from the bottom,try to keep them in groups of 5 or more of 1 colour as they dont tend to school with different types. they breed very easily, usually right after a water change.

dwarf rainbows are very pretty and school nicely and hang around in the mid section of the tank,given good water quality and bushy plants they spawn easily and are very active.

i would avoid mollies if you want a planted tank as they do tend to chow down on the plants, especially the softer leaved ones such as wisteria. they can also be a bit nippy but it seems to depend on individual fish from what ive seen.

depending on tank size you have many options. definately go to the aquatics center near you, take down and names of fish you like, come back and research them thoroughly. hope this helps.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

cory catfish are nice, they school well, nice and active, come in many colours and are great at cleaning up food from the bottom,try to keep them in groups of 5 or more of 1 colour as they dont tend to school with different types. they breed very easily, usually right after a water change.

Yes they do ! I had corydoras sterbai , Corydoras Concolor , Coryadorus Aeneus and another unknown/obscure species all schooling together i a 60" tank


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i didnt say they didnt school together, but they tend not to. ive had several different types in my big tank before, and although they swam together sometimes, they would sit and rest in separate groups :2thumb:


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

goldie1212 said:


> i didnt say they didnt school together, but they tend not to. ive had several different types in my big tank before, and although they swam together sometimes, they would sit and rest in separate groups :2thumb:


 Strange as mine shoal together all the time , I have a plump female Peppered cory full of eggs that an albino male Coryadoras Aeneus is trying to spawn with as I speak .


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> the lighting isnt actually necessary for the fish, its more for the plants. obviously you dont want a dark tank lol.
> id go for stadard T8 freshwater tubes, usually about £12-£20 depending where you buy them. you will need a starter unit for the lights aswell, unless your tank has a light fitting built into the hood/top.
> 
> as for adding more fish, just keep an eye on the stats of the water, make sure they are all low or zero.
> ...




Looks nice.





....to the untrained eye, but the yellowish tint to your water shows that you likely have high ammonia.....possibly a result of not doing enough water changes. Reminds me of my 70 gallon before I got advice to start doing 50% WC per week. EXACT same water color and my ammonia was horrendous. But don't take my word for it, I'm just a PENIS.


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

lol, well then, it indeed shows what you know, as my stats were always fine.
the reason for the yellowness is a. the camera, b. the lighting in the tank, and c. the lights in my living room were on, which cause my camera to try and auto adjust the levels.

stop trying to be a smart a**, it doesnt suit you.

there was no need for your comments then, at all. 
wheres your pics then?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

my tanks tend to have a yellow tint too, its the tanins from the driftwood. have had 0 ammonia since the tanks cycled. never heard of the water looking yellow due to ammonia.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> lol, well then, it indeed shows what you know, as my stats were always fine.
> the reason for the yellowness is a. the camera, b. the lighting in the tank, and c. the lights in my living room were on, which cause my camera to try and auto adjust the levels.
> 
> stop trying to be a smart a**, it doesnt suit you.
> ...


*yawns*


I can post some pics, but are you sure you want me to embarrass you in front of your friends? Hey man, you were the one who started calling me names....if you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen.....how's it go?....he who lives in glass houses shoudn't throw stones. :whip::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

goldie1212 said:


> my tanks tend to have a yellow tint too, its the tanins from the driftwood. have had 0 ammonia since the tanks cycled. never heard of the water looking yellow due to ammonia.



thankyou
my tank also had bogwood in it for many years, which does indeed add to yellow tint.
mine wasnt actually yellow, but my other tanks had been before.

and Victor - grow up. if you have nothing worth saying i suggest you take your own advice and get out. how exactly would you embarass me? 

maybe a mod should be useful and actually remove any pointless posts from this thread.
its getting ridiculous now.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

I went to my lfs earlier, I didn't make a list but saw a few things I liked. Zebra loach, some corys, the guppies, numerous cichlids and more.
I saw something that looked like a lungfish, it was awesome. The guy said they grew to about a foot and a half and were called tiger birch? I may have geared wrongly but they looked great!


Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

mrhoyo said:


> I went to my lfs earlier, I didn't make a list but saw a few things I liked. Zebra loach, some corys, the guppies, numerous cichlids and more.
> I saw something that looked like a lungfish, it was awesome. The guy said they grew to about a foot and a half and were called tiger birch? I may have geared wrongly but they looked great!
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


 Google Bichirs , Birchirs or Polypterus


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> > I went to my lfs earlier, I didn't make a list but saw a few things I liked. Zebra loach, some corys, the guppies, numerous cichlids and more.
> > I saw s
> 
> 
> Google Bichirs , Birchirs or Polypterus


That's the one! Cool aren't they? I have a feeling they're the complete opposite of the kind of fish of should be looking at.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

mrhoyo said:


> That's the one! Cool aren't they? I have a feeling they're the complete opposite of the kind of fish of should be looking at.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


 I don't really know  a lot about them TBH , a friend had some that spawned a few years ago , but they ate the eggs 8-( He hatched a few fry but lost them after a few days .


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> That's the one! Cool aren't they? I have a feeling they're the complete opposite of the kind of fish of should be looking at.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


Look at species specifics, I think some dont get too big or that might be something similar, theres definately something different you could get,

You said earlier about utilizing sand? how about spiny eels? they stay quite small swim like an eel and bury with just their heads poking out, very cool!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

these guys are great fish!

i've had a few...


senegalus...:no1:


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

kell_boy said:


> Look at species specifics, I think some dont get too big or that might be something similar, theres definately something different you could get,
> 
> You said earlier about utilizing sand? how about spiny eels? they stay quite small swim like an eel and bury with just their heads poking out, very cool!


 Look at Fire Eels and Tyre Track Eels as well ( although they get big ) . There is a website that deals only with prehistoric fish eg Birchirs somewhere , can't for the life of me remember the name - anyone ?


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Just thought of a quick idea for you . You seem to like what are known as oddballs - birchirs etc . How about an oddball tank or better still an African themed tank , or Old World Theme tank ( Old World = Africa & Asia ) . This is just random off the top of my head but an African theme tank based on the 4 foot x 2 foot x 2 foot you said you could accommodate . Rough Stock List 2 or 3 Birchirs depending on species - ask Habu for his advise on this one , Spotted or Leopard Ctenopoma ,Congo Tetras , a pair of Kribensis , Butterfly fish . If you like oddballs google Black Ghost Knife fish ( from South America ) or Brown Knife Fish ( African I think ? ) . Neither of these grows too large Avoid Clown Knife Fish , as they get huge


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

tire track eels are ok size , fire eels will need at least 100g tank they can get 3ft in length, I recently parted with my beautiful eel to get back into puffers, he was only a baby at a foot long, hard as nails though he was!

Clown knife fish are very cool indeed, be warned they cant have too strong a current, I accidently killed one with a current that it couldnt cope with ;(


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

kell_boy said:


> tire track eels are ok size , fire eels will need at least 100g tank they can get 3ft in length, I recently parted with my beautiful eel to get back into puffers, he was only a baby at a foot long, hard as nails though he was!
> 
> Clown knife fish are very cool indeed, be warned they cant have too strong a current, I accidently killed one with a current that it couldnt cope with ;(


 There was a full size Fire EEl at Fish Fest last year in one the classes in the fish show , they had bricks on the tank lid to stop it jumping out


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> Just thought of a quick idea for you . You seem to like what are known as oddballs - birchirs etc . How about an oddball tank or better still an African themed tank , or Old World Theme tank ( Old World = Africa & Asia ) . This is just random off the top of my head but an African theme tank based on the 4 foot x 2 foot x 2 foot you said you could accommodate . Rough Stock List 2 or 3 Birchirs depending on species - ask Habu for his advise on this one , Spotted or Leopard Ctenopoma ,Congo Tetras , a pair of Kribensis , Butterfly fish . If you like oddballs google Black Ghost Knife fish ( from South America ) or Brown Knife Fish ( African I think ? ) . Neither of these grows too large Avoid Clown Knife Fish , as they get huge


That may be an idea, can you stick some pics of them all up? I'm on my phone and it would take ages to Google everything.
Would I not be better getting a tank maybe half that size to see how I get on with fish?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Birchirs are fine if you put a combination lock on the cover glass :/ (no opposable thumbs you see) even after i read the article some years ago now in PFK about the two that escaped in one night to be found 2 days later (and survived i might add), and the fact i wedged the covers tight shut and blocked ever escape route i still answered a call from my ex-wife when i was at work which went something like this:

'er: 'is that you?'
me: 'yeh, wassup?'
'er: 'im trying to watch geraldo, but one of those big ugly fish is looking at me from under the telly unit'
me: 'uhm.......sorry?'
'er: 'either come home now and catch it or i'll show it to the cat'


so, yeh, escape artists to say the least


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Soz mate I'm on a laptop with hardly any RAM left , I'm sure some helpful soul will post some pics for you , hint hint guys  With fish tanks it's always best to try if you can to get slightly larger than you need , as it takes longer to pollute a larger body of water . I was only going by the size you mentioned in one of your earlier posts  At the end of the day get the tank YOU like the best , not what any of us tell you .


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Birchirs are fine if you put a combination lock on the cover glass :/ (no opposable thumbs you see) even after i read the article some years ago now in PFK about the two that escaped in one night to be found 2 days later (and survived i might add), and the fact i wedged the covers tight shut and blocked ever escape route i still answered a call from my ex-wife when i was at work which went something like this:
> 
> 'er: 'is that you?'
> me: 'yeh, wassup?'
> ...


I guess you were unlucky and had one that was an escape artist , my friends never bothered , or if they did he never mentioned it


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Congo tetra









Leopard Ctenopomahttp://www.freewebs.com/fruitbat/cacutirostre13.jpg











Butterfly fish









black ghost knife fish









kribensis


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Thanks Kellboy


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

kell_boy said:


> image
> Congro tetra
> 
> image
> ...


 
congos are my favorite tetra... african butterfly fish are cool... easy like congos...


come to think of it... there aren't too many freshwater tropicals i haven't kept...

watch those clown knives though... boy do they get big!... powerful too...

one time i traded some fish for a really big clown knife... one guy wanted to see it and looked and looked in the tank for it... then realized the entire background of the tank i had it in WAS the clown knife!... tank was just temporary... but the guy was looking for something swimming around... not a grey wall woth those bog eye spots!

he looked like he was about to crap his drawers when he finally saw it!:lol2:


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## rubberbiscuit (Jan 5, 2009)

I wish I had the space for a big tank but I just have a little one. Tis fairly low maintenance though!
I bought a 60l online with all the bits Id need together. Did a fishless cycle with ammonia (giving me time to practice with my test kit!). Added some esy grow plants (anubias, java fern, java moss) then got some fish.
Just have bronze cories and tiger barbs coz the tank isnt big enough for anything else and they seem to enjoy all the heavy planting in there!
Most important I put it next to the kitchen sink to make WCs less back breaking!!I just change 20% of the water once a week, gravel vac half the tank, quick bit of plant pruning and clean the filter/add ferts once a month. Takes half an hour and I can watch telly at the same time.
Easy peasy!! Levels are always great and fishies seem happy.


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

If you're on the look out for a decent tank, then try ebay. It's full of tanks from people who bought brand new, didn't invest time or effort in them and failed. 

There's a good beginners guide in this months PFK, as well as a feature on the congo including fish such as bichirs, tetras and catfish. There's a feature on polypterus as well as corydora's. Well worth reading imo.

God this thread is something else...


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

This thread is pretty epic  The thread that won't die  Another African fish I just thought of and used to own Featherfin Synodontis great catfish


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my favorite type of tank is an Mbuna tank...

malawi cichlids...

i miss having Mbunas!










here's a nice example that i found online... they're so busy and fun to watch... and the greatest of all moochers!:lol2:


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

How do you people who do 50%, or 75% water changes per week get the water to the correct temp and free from chlorine ready?
sounds like a lot of work to me and I dont see why it is necessary. Whats the reason for the big water change, what parameters are you testing?


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

If anybody wants to see a REALLY BIG tank of Malawis I know where there is one in the south of England , as my friend used to maintain it , Stoke Park Private Health/ Golf club ....in Stoke Pogues in Buckinghamshire . It's where they filmed the Golf Scenes in GoldFinger in the 1960's . This tank is 27 FEET LONG and is situated at the side of the swimming pool instead of a wall . Once seen never forgotten . I'll drop my friend a line as I think he has some pictures somewhere .


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> How do you people who do 50%, or 75% water changes per week get the water to the correct temp and free from chlorine ready?
> sounds like a lot of work to me and I dont see why it is necessary. Whats the reason for the big water change, what parameters are you testing?


I filled storage containers the night before, treated the water with seachem prime and had heaters in the water ready for the next day. 

Basically the more fish you have, the more waste they produce. African rift tanks which require heavy/over-stocking, and large messy fish such as cichlids and goldies can bring the water quality down quickly so by changing the water you ditch the nasties. The larger/more frequent the water changes, means that more nasties are ditched and the water quality remains good. 

As a rule of thumb, pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are the ones to watch in a freshwater tank.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

i just use a mixer and a hose pipe, i switch off the filters, syphon about 25% out the door (twice weekly), add 5ml of Seachem Prime to the tank, refill from the taps via hose and restart filters, takes 10 mins for the big tanks thats it.

the reason for so much water changed in Rift tanks is that the fish come from pristine water, as i said earlier i tested some from Lake Malawi last time i was working over there and there was no Ammonia, no Nitrite and less than 5ppm in all the sites i tested.

and its as easy to keep all the tanks to the same regime as my Mbuna and Hap tanks


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> i just use a mixer and a hose pipe, i switch off the filters, syphon about 25% out the door (twice weekly), add 5ml of Seachem Prime to the tank, refill from the taps via hose and restart filters, takes 10 mins for the big tanks thats it.
> 
> the reason for so much water changed in Rift tanks is that the fish come from pristine water, as i said earlier i tested some from Lake Malawi last time i was working over there and there was no Ammonia, no Nitrite and less than 5ppm in all the sites i tested.
> 
> and its as easy to keep all the tanks to the same regime as my Mbuna and Hap tanks


You end up with copper in the water if you add from the hot tap. I once did it and my fire eel went stiff as a board, i put it in fresh water from the cold tap warmed with heaters and it recovered after a week so ive avoided uasing the hot tap ever since.

I dont see the need for all these weekly water changes, my nitrates low so why bother.


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> How do you people who do 50%, or 75% water changes per week get the water to the correct temp and free from chlorine ready?
> sounds like a lot of work to me and I dont see why it is necessary. Whats the reason for the big water change, what parameters are you testing?


I use a thermometer, and using the tap get it to the right temp, i keep it running and match the temp of the tank, then using 2 buckets, I finish the 1st take it out the sink and put the 2nd one in, while thats filling up, i add the dechlorinator give it a real good stir and carefuly add it, by the time im back into the kitchen the next bucket is ready and the process repeats.

Once my tank is mature I only test nitrates every week, atm as my puffer is young it is 15ppm around that area, as an adult, based on my previous experience I reckon nitrates will hit 30-40 ppm a week so will need 50% weekly to keep it under 20ppm.

I dont understand why people are still arguing if its nesscary or not, if it wasnt, we wouldnt flippin do it. And no I dont overfeed my fish, as adults I feed puffers once every 2-3 days or less if they get a big meal.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> You end up with copper in the water if you add from the hot tap. I once did it and my fire eel went stiff as a board, i put it in fresh water from the cold tap warmed with heaters and it recovered after a week so ive avoided uasing the hot tap ever since.
> 
> I dont see the need for all these weekly water changes, my nitrates low so why bother.


in 27 years iv never had a problem doing it this way and i test for copper in both my hot and cold once a month or so, maybe its because iv never had an immersion heater


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> in 27 years iv never had a problem doing it this way and i test for copper in both my hot and cold once a month or so, maybe its because iv never had an immersion heater


Same, I owned a fire eel for a year before giving him away just a week ago, never had a problem, he was hard as nails and very healthy.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> How do you people who do 50%, or 75% water changes per week get the water to the correct temp and free from chlorine ready?
> sounds like a lot of work to me and I dont see why it is necessary. Whats the reason for the big water change, what parameters are you testing?


and while we're on, we do it because its necessary to stop the fish suffering from NItrate poisoning, if you took the time to read the whole thing you will see that issue covered many many wonderful times in this thread.

if you dont think that keeping your fish in pristine condition matters then thats up to you i guess


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> in 27 years iv never had a problem doing it this way and i test for copper in both my hot and cold once a month or so, maybe its because iv never had an immersion heater


I have a combi boiler. Fire eels are quite sensitive due to being scaleless


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> I have a combi boiler. Fire eels are quite sensitive due to being scaleless


Yes as said I kept one for a year never had a problem, puffers are just as fragile with water quality as they are also scaleless, never in four years in 2 houses have i had a problem with mixing the hot tap, though thanks for mentioning it as if i ever move i will test it.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> and while we're on, we do it because its necessary to stop the fish suffering from NItrate poisoning, if you took the time to read the whole thing you will see that issue covered many many wonderful times in this thread.
> 
> if you dont think that keeping your fish in pristine condition matters then thats up to you i guess


I've just tested the nitrate on my 3 foot tank and it 10ppm which is quite high for this tank but I've got 4 young cameroon clawed frogs in at the moment which I'm giving plenty of foodto make them grow.
here's a clip of the same tank a few weeks back with my young tetragonopterus argentis (the silver ones that go balistic when you put food in). Again i was feeding them really well with high protein food (hikari lionhead) to grow them on. I think it must be 6 months since I last did a water change and even longer since I last tested it but just tested today and its 10ppm nitrate. I just occasionally pull out the odd bucket full of floating plants and throw them away or give them to the local fish shop.

Here's a photobucket video clip, just click on it to play


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> I've just tested the nitrate on my 3 foot tank and it 10ppm which is quite high for this tank but I've got 4 young cameroon clawed frogs in at the moment which I'm giving plenty of foodto make them grow.
> here's a clip of the same tank a few weeks back with my young tetragonopterus argentis (the silver ones that go balistic when you put food in). Again i was feeding them really well with high protein food (hikari lionhead) to grow them on. I think it must be 6 months since I last did a water change and even longer since I last tested it but just tested today and its 10ppm nitrate. I just occasionally pull out the odd bucket full of floating plants and throw them away or give them to the local fish shop.
> 
> Here's a photobucket video clip, just click on it to play
> [URL="http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/stan73/3%20foot%20tank/th_100_1273.jpg"]image[/URL]


6 months?????? what are you testing with?


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

kell_boy said:


> 6 months?????? what are you testing with?


A Nutrafin (Hagen) test kit, why?


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> A Nutrafin (Hagen) test kit, why?


nvm, we was just discussing how all fish are entitled to fresh water often regardless of nitrates, as certain things are lost in the water when it becomes old, and chemicals must be used to replace these if frequent water changes arent carried out.

HABU made a great point earlier about how all freshwater fish in the wild get slow continuous fresh water and I agree, that we should try and replicate this.


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## boisterous_billy (Oct 12, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> thankyou
> my tank also had bogwood in it for many years, which does indeed add to yellow tint.
> mine wasnt actually yellow, but my other tanks had been before.
> .


This wood in mine used to tint it bad.











lionfish said:


> Look at Fire Eels and Tyre Track Eels as well ( although they get big ) . There is a website that deals only with prehistoric fish eg Birchirs somewhere , can't for the life of me remember the name - anyone ?


Fire eels mess the tank up badly uplift everything in mine.
Heres my old one.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

kell_boy said:


> nvm, we was just discussing how all fish are entitled to fresh water often regardless of nitrates, as certain things are lost in the water when it becomes old, and chemicals must be used to replace these if frequent water changes arent carried out.
> 
> HABU made a great point earlier about how all freshwater fish in the wild get slow continuous fresh water and I agree, that we should try and replicate this.


I do give them water changes just not that often, this tank seems to be doing pretty good without too much interference. The big tank gets a bit more attention, I've got some RO water ready at the moment warming up but that will be it till next year as my RO unit is no good in the cold weather.

Plants are really good at removing waste and even heavy metals. Nature recycles continuously - animals eat plants then crap and the crap feed the plants. I was reading my fish food analysis the other day and it had protein, phosphorous, potassium, sulphur, iron, all stuff that plants need to grow so who needs fertilizers?
I can imagine in some cases the fresh tap water will have more heavy metals than water that has had good healthy plant growth. 

When I had my marine tank the plants grew like mental as the marine plants are able to absorb C02 from the carbonate in the alkali water rather than having to rely on dissolved CO2. Most fresh water plants generally can't do this as the water they are adapted to doesn't contain much carbonate (hardness) but there are a few fresh water plants that can such as vallis and hornwort which are adapted for hard water. With plants that are adapted to soft water conditions they will wither away when placed in hard alkali water because there isn't any dissolved CO2, it all gets neutralised to carbonate from the metal ions. This is why I soften my water with RO water, once the plants have what they need they look after the water for me. 
In my marine tank the nitrate was never detectable, I only did a water change when the anemones started to shrink due to lack of nutrients, they soon plumped back up with the fresh nutrients from the new salt.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

boisterous_billy said:


> This wood in mine used to tint it bad.
> image
> 
> 
> ...


Nice eel. Mine used to suck up earthworms for my hand, it loved prawns too but they're bad for them, too much cholesterol. I expect they'll like chopped cockles but I didn't get round to trying it.
I see you don't have any plants, you have to do lots of water changes without plants lol


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## boisterous_billy (Oct 12, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> Nice eel. Mine used to suck up earthworms for my hand, it loved prawns too but they're bad for them, too much cholesterol. I expect they'll like chopped cockles but I didn't get round to trying it.
> I see you don't have any plants, you have to do lots of water changes without plants lol



My eel was a right fussy sod for feeding but when he did he eat everything..lol

The top tank was the one that i used to 50% WC every week but it wasnt just because of fish mess it was the tint from the wood it used to drive me mad but it looked good so i didnt want to take it out..:2thumb:

But the bottom one i never had a prob just done 20/30% WC a week and it was fine.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> Congo tetra
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bloody hell, you lot don't make things easy for me do you? I'm there settled on guppies and then out come this lot!
Anyone want to tempt me with other fishy pics?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

Scats?

















i love these fishes! so cool to watch!

not really a first fish though lol

Oooh, how about some Endlers? they are very much like guppies, but smaller, but they come in a larger variety of amazing colours! they will also breed with guppies, something that a lot fo people look down upon..

























thats just a few of the colours, google images of Endlers and youll see what i mean 
they also breed as often and as much as guppies


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> I have a combi boiler. Fire eels are quite sensitive due to being scaleless


Synodontis are also scale-less and copper sensitive and yet ive been successfully breeding mulipunctatus for years and also petricola for the last year



Stan193 said:


> A Nutrafin (Hagen) test kit, why?


Unopened shelf life 4 years, once opened 12months, after that the reagents break down and give vastly inaccurate readings, but you knew that already.....didnt you?



But then again, what do i know about fish and water chemistry? i only have 2 degrees in Natural Sciences and 27 years experience, 11 of those on a professional level.
That must pale in comparison to you, so i bow to your obvious greater knowledge.

Please....continue


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Synodontis are also scale-less and copper sensitive and yet ive been successfully breeding mulipunctatus for years and also petricola for the last year
> 
> 
> Unopened shelf life 4 years, once opened 12months, after that the reagents break down and give vastly inaccurate readings, but you knew that already.....didnt you?
> ...


That was just my conclusion when the eel turned stiff, I don't have anything to test the copper. Why did it turn stiff when using water from the boiler and why did it recover?
I wont use untreated water from my supply anymore, its too hard.You must spend an awful lot on test kits then, so don't you believe plants remove the nitrate?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

of course i believe in using flora in aquaria, but i also believe in 'what grows together, goes together' ie as near to a biotope as possible.

just as a fire eel doesnt belong in soft water (for exactly the reason you stated, they are scaleless and absorb macroelements contained in the water such as phosphates, magnesium, sodium, potassium and more, without this the growth and well being of the fish suffers, and all are exhausted over short periods of time and need to be replenished through either water changes or manual addition, all fish do this, but scaleless do so more readily), plants dont belong in some types of setup

there are also more elements known as microelements absorbed the same way and that also need replenishing on a regular basis

the symptoms you describe in your eel arent at all indicative of copper poisoning, if it had been so the fish would have suffered reduced growth rates, feed absorption defficiency and haematocrit (increase red blood cell production and seperation of these from the plasma), and there would be no recovery i'm afraid to say, biologically impossible.
so your problem was caused by something else, thats definite, maybe a contaminant in bucket or pipe? ( sodium chlorate would cause similar symptoms, used to be a common ingredient in weedkiller until outlawed a couple of years ago)

as far as test kits go, well, luckily i get mine through work for free, but its only 50 of each test (ammonia and nitrite i check less often) per tank per year so how is that expensive? less than a pint at the pub


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> Scats?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not too keen on either of those. The scats look a lot like various other fish and the endlers are a bit boring too. They had some in my lfs yesterday and they were just like imitation guppies.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

mrhoyo, if you go here:
Water Quality In your area
and put in your postcode it'll tell you everything thats in your water in the 'water quality' tab
chuck us the Ph reading and hardness (the hardness is found to the right of the page) i'll gladly suggest some species that'll go together in the water you have


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> mrhoyo, if you go here:
> Water Quality In your area
> and put in your postcode it'll tell you everything thats in your water in the 'water quality' tab
> chuck us the Ph reading and hardness (the hardness is found to the right of the page) i'll gladly suggest some species that'll go together in the water you have


If you go to page 5 I've already posted it. Seems quite far away now, all the way back there.

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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

How about these:

Serpae Tetra









Bleeding Heart Tetra









Hatchet Fish









Sparkling Gourami









Panda Cory









Kuhli Loach









all good starters and your water is fine without and manipulation too


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> But then again, what do i know about fish and water chemistry? i only have 2 degrees in Natural Sciences and 27 years experience, 11 of those on a professional level.
> That must pale in comparison to you, so i bow to your obvious greater knowledge.
> 
> Please....continue



why do you people have to keep throwing your toys out the pram?
there was no need for your comments here again!

this forum seems to be full of self righteous idiots, not people who actually care for the hobby and wanna help out without having a god complex!


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Pearson Design said:


> why do you people have to keep throwing your toys out the pram?
> there was no need for your comments here again!
> 
> this forum seems to be full of self righteous idiots, not people who actually care for the hobby and wanna help out without having a god complex!


oh my god, who rattled your cage?

he asked questions i answered simple as, nothing to do with you at all


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i use a mixer tap to get the right temp for water replacement in my tank, ive always used hot water to bring the temps up. never been an issue for any of my tanks :2thumb:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

tetras... i'm a huge tetra fan... there are so many species and such a spectrum...

actually my favorite tank is a community tank with shoals of various tetras and fish that complement them... scavengers etc...

south american river tanks are great... make it authentic with the proper species of fish and plants you would find in a typical S.A. creek or river... decorate it as a river bank might look...

it's a good way of keeping fish... species that enjoy the same water quality and evolved together...

i'm guilty of having mixed tanks though like most folks... fish from all over the globe together... but recreating an authentic habitat with the proper residents can be fantastic... and south american fish species are so numerous... you have such a selection to work with...

also i like keeping schools of fish like tetra species... not just one or two of a species but six or eight or more... they are less stressed swimming with their own kind...

just something i like doing...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

50 watt submersible heater is what i've mostly used for water changes... set it... plop it in the bucket and plug it in... mostly in the winter when the cold water from the tap is ice cold...











when the new water is the right temp you unplug it and have a beer till the heater cools... i take my time with water changes... replace it slowly... when the water level is down after i syphon the tank... that's when i prune plants while the fresh water is heating up...

but you have to be careful... let that heater cool down before placing it in water or removing it...

the little red light shuts off when the water is the right temp...

easy as pie... that way you can run your cold water from the tap for a good while to flush copper and crap from the indoor pipes...

sometimes i'll drain out 5 gallons... add five gallons... drain another five ... on and on... slowly fushing the tank... very slowly...


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

thats one way of doing it i guess, but i shut off my filters while in the tank doing a water change, if i carried out a good sized water change on my 150g 6ft tank this way, the bacteria would be starved of oxygen for far too long and im sure id end up with a mini-cycle every time.


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> How about these:
> 
> Serpae Tetra
> image
> ...


I don't know if it's my computer but the only picture that's coming up is the Kuhli Loach? I'll have a Google on the others.
EDIT
I've just had a look on Google, the loaches and corys are great, the serpae tetra is nice and I don't mind the hatchets or gouramis. I wasn't keen on the bleeding heart tetra though, it looked a bit boring.
I like HABU's idea of having fish all from the same area, I don't know how long I would stick with it before finding some fantastic fish from the other side of the world though.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

goldie1212 said:


> thats one way of doing it i guess, but i shut off my filters while in the tank doing a water change, if i carried out a good sized water change on my 150g 6ft tank this way, the bacteria would be starved of oxygen for far too long and im sure id end up with a mini-cycle every time.


 
i let my filters run when i am changing water... i just don't drop the water down past where they break the syphoning... i squish out my filter sponges in the bucket with the tank's wastewater when i pull water out... it's a ritual with me... basic maintenance... clean the glass, prune... vacuum the gravel... etc...

aside from a fluval canister, i always used h.o.t. filters... aquaclear and marineland emperor filters... they're easily accessible and i pull water with them from low in the tanks... long intake tubes... you can pull a lot of water before it gets low enough to break the water flow and dry the filters...

the canisters i don't clean so often... they always stay clean as the box/hot filters catch most detritus...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

mrhoyo said:


> I don't know if it's my computer but the only picture that's coming up is the Kuhli Loach? I'll have a Google on the others.
> EDIT
> I've just had a look on Google, the loaches and corys are great, the serpae tetra is nice and I don't mind the hatchets or gouramis. I wasn't keen on the bleeding heart tetra though, it looked a bit boring.
> I like HABU's idea of having fish all from the same area, I don't know how long I would stick with it before finding some fantastic fish from the other side of the world though.


 
bleeding heart tetras are one of my favorites... right up there with congos...

silver hatchets are great too... marbled hatchets i always had mixed success with...


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

The silver hatchets are looking better than they did earlier actually and they're from the same kind of place as the guppies and tetras etc too. I shall have a look and see if there is anything else that interests me.


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## Pearson Design (Jan 21, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> oh my god, who rattled your cage?
> 
> he asked questions i answered simple as, nothing to do with you at all


it was the way you said it lol, your alright, its a lot of other members ive read sarcy comments and really unhelpful posts.

anyways, it was early, my daughter had woken me up at 6 this morning and i was still sleepy eyed lol, so apologies...


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

accepted, please accept mine in return, i'v started to roll my eyes when i see 'new posts' on this thread now, lol

but ya know, mrhoyo doesn't deserve to be abandoned when looking for help so i'll stick it out


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

A few fish I've discovered I like the look of through my searches:
Adolph's Cory
The Bichirs
Butterfly Hillstream Loach
Horsefaced loach
Opaline Gourami
Tiger Barb
Ram
Keyhole Cichlid
Frontosa (they look quite big though)
Electric Yellow Labidochromis
Convict Cichlid
Schismatogobius ampluvinculus

I'm not sure on the care of any of these, I just had a look on a fish website and copied some names.


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## dave_turnip (Oct 10, 2010)

To me, water changes and general maintenance are a big part of the fun in keeping fish. Take all that away and, well, might as well watch a swimming fish DVD. There's no reward w/o effort.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

mrhoyo said:


> A few fish I've discovered I like the look of through my searches:
> Adolph's Cory
> The Bichirs
> Butterfly Hillstream Loach
> ...


 
i've never had these...
Adolph's Cory

Schismatogobius ampluvinculus

Butterfly Hillstream Loach


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

frontosas and yellow labs need high ph and very hard water, i breed both so i know this one for sure, lol.
Fronts grow large (about a foot long average) and need to be kept in groups of at least 6, otherwise they just wither away, in a large tank with plenty of swmming space, mine are in a 6x3x2
also their water really does have to be pristine
Labs are Mbuna, rock dwellers and again need spotless water with high oxygen content and other Mbuna species.


Adolph's Cory
Butterfly Hillstream Loach
Horsefaced loach
Opaline Gourami
Tiger Barb

i cant see a problem with housing these together, but i may have missed something that someone else can point out

how about a couple of Bristlenose Pleco too?









Bichirs, better in a large fish or species tank as they'll take out (eat) whatever fits in their mouth....or even what they THINK they can fit, lol

Ram, Keyhole, Convict cichlids,
Rams are not the best starter fish, picky when it comes to water quality, very picky
Keyholes and Convicts, both lovely fish, but typical cichlid temperament, although not as bad as some


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> frontosas and yellow labs need high ph and very hard water, i breed both so i know this one for sure, lol.
> Fronts grow large (about a foot long average) and need to be kept in groups of at least 6, otherwise they just wither away, in a large tank with plenty of swmming space, mine are in a 6x3x2
> also their water really does have to be pristine
> Labs are Mbuna, rock dwellers and again need spotless water with high oxygen content and other Mbuna species.
> ...


Plecs don't do it for me unfortunately.
What do you mean by typical cichlid temperament?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

tiger barbs can be mean little fin nippers in the wrong situation...


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## boisterous_billy (Oct 12, 2010)

Only thing with cons a pair of them can be very territorial and will take over half of the tank keeping other fish all up one end.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

tiger barbs need a group so they can chase one another and not the other residents... they just like to chase and one or two just doesn't cut it...

six or more is good... also places for other fish to hide or get away when they need to... they're just too chase-y and busy for many fish...

they behave well in groups... a very nice fish... but so many folks just get one and it worries everyone else trying to find something to chase...
tiger barbs... they have a bad rep... for no good reason really...


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

as Billy says about the Convicts, Keyhole Cichlids can, and usually do, become very territorial when theyre feeling fruity or caring for young or eggs (which with Convicts is most of the time, lol)
They are a good intro to cichlid care when you have a little more experience, or if you want a single species tank now, but as a community Cichlid, if i were you id leave it a little while until you have a little more experience.

but ultimately it's up to you, its only advice all said and done


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Well done guys some great discussions going on!

Steve, i :notworthy: to your knowledge, very interesting read about the scaleless fish! Nice one.

Pearson design- thanks for heads up about the argos sand, was in town this morning got 4 bags 15kg 2.99 each, Ive just finished swapping my substrate over, can be risky so but hopefully my filter will manage with the bacteria loss from the gravel but as well as being cheap, its very easy to clean and looks absolutely awesome!


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> Well done guys some great discussions going on!
> 
> Steve, i :notworthy: to your knowledge, very interesting read about the scaleless fish! Nice one.
> 
> Pearson design- thanks for heads up about the argos sand, was in town this morning got 4 bags 15kg 2.99 each, Ive just finished swapping my substrate over, can be risky so but hopefully my filter will manage with the bacteria loss from the gravel but as well as being cheap, its very easy to clean and looks absolutely awesome!


How do you go about cleaning sand?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> How do you go about cleaning sand?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


You can use a gravel vac to carefully skim the surface to just pick up the detritus left on top, what is important though, as said earlier, is to keep the sand turned over, malaysian trumpet snails bury and keep it churning, Or I simply use my hand to sift the sand through my fingers to keep it all turned over, I find it SO much easier then gravel, it looks better IMO and is nicer on the fishies bellies : victory:


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## mrhoyo (Mar 29, 2007)

> > How do you go about cleaning sand?
> >
> > Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
> 
> ...


Is there any chance of some fish getting sucked up by accident? Someone mentioned fish hiding in the sand.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

MRHOYO , if you're interested in loaches ( I love loaches ) look for the loaches.com website , also look out for any online articles written by a lady called Emma Turner , she writes for Practical Fish Keeping magazine as their loach specialist ( she owned the late , great Marge - one of the biggest clown loaches in captivity ). Re Hillstream locahes , they need fast running running water - the clue is in the name "Hill Stream" , my LFS keeps them in the coldwater section in with white cloud mountain minnows , they are what is known as a temperant fish , sort of borderline between coldwater and tropical , in the same way the weather loaches are ( although I keep my weather loach in an Asian tropical tank ) .


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

mrhoyo said:


> Is there any chance of some fish getting sucked up by accident? Someone mentioned fish hiding in the sand.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


No because you dont put it right to the sand or you would suck the sand up, you hover it enought to pull the dirt on top, theres a nack to it it takes some practice :2thumb:


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

HABU said:


> 50 watt submersible heater is what i've mostly used for water changes... set it... plop it in the bucket and plug it in... mostly in the winter when the cold water from the tap is ice cold...
> 
> image
> 
> ...



Is there any reason for not using water from the hot tap? 
I've always believed that you mustn't use it after I was told in the dim and distant past that it containing too much copper which I assume it picked up from the pipes due to being hot but. 
I'm talking a long time ago and maybe things have changed, this was back in the day when we all had a big copper water cylinder for hot water.
If I can use hot water to adjust the temp then that would make my life so much easier than having to set up something to heat 50 gallons of water.


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> Is there any reason for not using water from the hot tap?
> I've always believed that you mustn't use it after I was told in the dim and distant past that it containing too much copper which I assume it picked up from the pipes due to being hot but.
> I'm talking a long time ago and maybe things have changed, this was back in the day when we all had a big copper water cylinder for hot water.
> If I can use hot water to adjust the temp then that would make my life so much easier than having to set up something to heat 50 gallons of water.


As said I think most people now do it stan, but check your hot water for copper if you can, but I however have never had a problem.
Did a water change last night and changed all the substrate took just under 2 hours, after adding sand that was cleaned in freezing cold water I had to top the rest of the tank with warm water (fish where removed from tank)

And my puffer (remember scaleless) is just as dandy as ever, enjoyed some snacks last night: victory:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Stan193 said:


> Is there any reason for not using water from the hot tap?
> I've always believed that you mustn't use it after I was told in the dim and distant past that it containing too much copper which I assume it picked up from the pipes due to being hot but.
> I'm talking a long time ago and maybe things have changed, this was back in the day when we all had a big copper water cylinder for hot water.
> If I can use hot water to adjust the temp then that would make my life so much easier than having to set up something to heat 50 gallons of water.


In that dim and distant past it wasn't just the copper the was suspect, it was the fact that in old style hot water systems the immersion tank built up with sediment over years, this meant that around 40 gallons over water had plenty of time to dissolve compounds from the sediment, copper oxides being a part of this.

nowadays, with 'instant hot water' systems this isnt the case.
most supply's to the house now are nylon and there are only a few metres of copper piping from the heater to the taps, this is the only source f water 'standing' for any length of time.
even 15m of copper pipe will only take 20 seconds to purge if it still concerns you.

if actual figures will put your mind at rest:

Naked Catfish (just an example, but ALL life requires some amount of copper) require 5mg/Kg of copper through absorption and diet, this is required for production of caeruloplasmin (ferroxidase) ie. iron metabolism, and therefore haemoglobin synthesis and red blood cell production and maintenance.
Also it's needed for the formation of the pigment melanin and consequently skin pigmentation, for the formation of bone and connective tissue, and for maintaining the integrity of the myelin sheath of nerve fibres.

BUT, levels above 15mg/Kg have shown to be lethal over long term exposure.
So, to survive they need around 5mg/Kg, but a small amount (10mg/Kg) over that and it becomes toxic

to put this in perspective the water now contains around 0.04mg/Kg

back in the day (20 years or so) they used to add Copper Sulphate to the water to combat pipe corrosion in monthly or bi-monthly intervals, this gave the water a copper content of 2mg/Kg, the legal maximum still employed throughout Europe (although this is now no longer practised in the UK.

hope that helps somewhat


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> In that dim and distant past it wasn't just the copper the was suspect, it was the fact that in old style hot water systems the immersion tank built up with sediment over years, this meant that around 40 gallons over water had plenty of time to dissolve compounds from the sediment, copper oxides being a part of this.
> 
> nowadays, with 'instant hot water' systems this isnt the case.
> most supply's to the house now are nylon and there are only a few metres of copper piping from the heater to the taps, this is the only source f water 'standing' for any length of time.
> ...


Yes that helps a lot, thanks for taking the time to tell me this stuff.

A couple more question, I mix my water with RO to reduce the hardness so that i can grow plants. I read somewhere that hard water can also stunt the fishes growth, is this true (obvieously certain fish are adapted to hard water)?
I really sturggle to get RO water from my unit in the cold weather, would it be safe to use rainwater collected from my outhouse roof? its a concrete tiled roof but its been on there a long time, it was tiled before I moved here 11 years ago.I live in a smallish town, not near any busy roads or factorys.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i have used bottled water... distilled to soften my water... it's cheap here... like 50 cents a u.s. gallon or so... so a buck or two was enough to dillute my very hard tap water...


one question i have for anyone that can answer... dissolved gasses in tap water...

shouldn't water be allowed to set for a bit so that gasses like nitrogen have a chance to bubble out before doing big water changes?

the water pressure in city pipes are high...

any opinions?

won't fish get the bends if you go and do a massive/50% water change?

or have i worried for nothing?... anyone?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

if you keep sensitive softwater fishes such as discus, angels, rams and blackwater tetras then yes, hardwater can and will stunt their growth due to the fact that their osmosis is affected.

part of the reason i no longer keep those type of fish

as far as rainwater in concerned, i'm only about 5 miles from you and have used rainwater in the past, so long as the first 15-20 minutes is discarded, by that time any pollutants have been 'washed away'

ferrybridge power station is between us, and theres the croda factory so i wouldnt use the first few minutes...it may mean you going out in the rain to move pipes around, lol


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> if you keep sensitive softwater fishes such as discus, angels, rams and blackwater tetras then yes, hardwater can and will stunt their growth due to the fact that their osmosis is affected.
> 
> part of the reason i no longer keep those type of fish
> 
> ...


I didn't realise you were that close.
Oh yeah I kind of forgot the power station and SRM (solvent recovery management) in knottingley (used to be Croda, I know as I work for Croda). but I don't think they'll give out so much emmisions these days.

I'll start using rainwater too then, it soon fills my small 20 gallon or so dustbin when it rains heavy. 
My water is only supposed to be moderately hard but I've never been able to grow anything other than hornwort and vallis until I started mixing with RO. I think of it as being very hard and more suitable for live bearers and malawis.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> if you keep sensitive softwater fishes such as discus, angels, rams and blackwater tetras then yes, hardwater can and will stunt their growth due to the fact that their osmosis is affected.
> 
> part of the reason i no longer keep those type of fish
> 
> ...


Steve , that's really interesting the part about hardwater stunting fish due to osmosis , can you explain it please ?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

well, to put it simply, osmosis is the passage of water, nutrients and wastes into and out of the cell, regulated by the cell membrane (its outer wall), to and from it's nucleus where the DNA, ribosome, lysosomes and Mitochondria are stored.
These work on protein synthesis, which is the major part in the process of growth.
Salts effect osomsis, be they Sulphates, Carbonates, Nitrates, Nitrites or whatever and the cells of fish (not just fish btw) evolve to utilise these optimally from their environment, and excessive salts inhibit that passage across the cell wall and the cell cant work effectively, and in amounts greater than the membrane can deal with the water is drawn out of the cell and none gets back in.

In low concentrations above what the cell membrane has evolved in, feeding of the nucleus is hampered, If the cell isnt fed and watered properly it won't work effectively (it wont replicate itself) and in higher concentrations the cell actually dies off.

it's alot more complex than this....in fact it was 6 months work at least, but i hope i gave you the jist

wow, oyu guys are making my brain work for a living here, lol


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

Thanks , That was really interesting  Edit ....Maybe we should get you to come along as a guest speaker at a B.L.A event


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

its been a while since i did anything like that, lol

i used to be the guy at the invert shows and Uni lectures waving his arms around and pacing back and forth with a crowd around, lol

let me get my surgery out of the way and i may just take you up on that one


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

water chemistry 101...

most folks don't know the properties of water... let alone the nitrogen cycle...

like most folks don't understand diffusion and osmosis... the polarity of water molecules and how still water forms a 'skin' and prevents co2 from escaping readily... how o2 dissolves... surface tension.. things like that...

people should really read up on these things as i've said before... it really is an asset to know the fundamentals in and out...

most folks have trouble with what pH is and how hardness and other factors are interrelated...

everything is connected when it comes to aquatics... temps affect chemistry... currents... proteins... aeration... carbonate hardness and general hardness... how minerals dissolve...

it's fascinating stuff but just stuff we were supposed to learn in high school... most regular folks slept through that class it seems in my experience...

we should have an aquatics tips thread... some would find that useful...

like a for instance:

most folks don't wash their hands and rinse them thoroughly before reaching into their tanks... don't realize the toxic residues on most hands... deodorant... soap... perfume... things like that that will get into a tank and can cause issues...

i'm no expert but i've kept fish since the early 70's... worked in a few pet shops... read my share...

being old school, i enjoy how easy it is keeping fish today... gone are the old box filters with the air pump as state of art gear... i remember when the filter media was fiberglass "angel hair"!

we've come a long way...


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

HABU said:


> water chemistry 101...
> 
> most folks don't know the properties of water... let alone the nitrogen cycle...
> 
> ...


I cant say I know a huge amount on this. I know if want to increase the oxygen content then you should get plenty of surface movement, spray bars, air stones etc but this will also "purge the CO2 out of the water so not a good thing to do if you want plenty of CO2 in there for the wellbeing of plants.
They don't seem to put too much details in the fish keeping books.


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Why do people over complicate things? between my and my dad we've had tanks for about 30 years, with about the same amount of tanks.
Get the tank full of water, add the amount of water conditioner needed, add your decorations (no lives plants at this point) leave it for about a month for your bacteria to build up, get your first fish(go for somethings small, your bottomfeeders would be better as a first fish in the tank) leave them a week minimum, get your second fish (always introduce fish which may be territorial last!!)

After a month or two their will be regular amounts of nitrate being produced, and the water will be "mature" for your less hardy fish, and live plants.

50% water changes? one way to kill bacteria in your tank and filters.
you don't need to make water changes of anymore then say, 30%


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

The T Lord said:


> Why do people over complicate things? between my and my dad we've had tanks for about 30 years, with about the same amount of tanks.
> Get the tank full of water, add the amount of water conditioner needed, add your decorations (no lives plants at this point) leave it for about a month for your bacteria to build up, get your first fish(go for somethings small, your bottomfeeders would be better as a first fish in the tank) leave them a week minimum, get your second fish (always introduce fish which may be territorial last!!)
> 
> After a month or two their will be regular amounts of nitrate being produced, and the water will be "mature" for your less hardy fish, and live plants.
> ...





I love the way this guy appears to know how to do things properly, challengeing the in-detail descriptions and scientific research that has already been done prior. This is bread-and-butter stuff you just posted and in no way goes into the in-depth intricacies described by many of the previous posters. I basically learned everything you just posted in my 1st month keeping fish when I was 11. PLEASE tell me this is not all you learned after 30 years of keeping fish. I hear alot of people say "I been keeping fish for 20,30,40 years" and I've only been serious about it for about 3 years, but after talking w/ some people and reading some of their posts: my 3 years > their 30 years.

For the LAST TIME, natural bacteria is not concentrated in the water, it is in the filter, media, gravel and decor. FRESH WATER isn't killing a bloody THING. You people need to get this through your heads. It's not an opinion, nor need it be open for discussion. It is a FACT. Accept it. Why are people so damn stubborn? It isn't OVERcomplicated, it's just broken down scientifically and explained down to the last molecule. I found it very interesting to read, personally and I want to know more. If I were you guys, i would read [email protected]'s posts very thoroughly and listen to what he tells you cuz he knows more than me and he DEFINITELY knows more than most of the people in this section of the forum.


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Victor Creed said:


> I love the way this guy appears to know how to do things properly, challengeing the in-detail descriptions and scientific research that has already been done prior. This is bread-and-butter stuff you just posted and in no way goes into the in-depth intricacies described by many of the previous posters. I basically learned everything you just posted in my 1st month keeping fish when I was 11. PLEASE tell me this is not all you learned after 30 years of keeping fish. I hear alot of people say "I been keeping fish for 20,30,40 years" and I've only been serious about it for about 3 years, but after talking w/ some people and reading some of their posts: my 3 years > their 30 years.
> 
> For the LAST TIME, natural bacteria is not concentrated in the water, it is in the filter, media, gravel and decor. FRESH WATER isn't killing a bloody THING. You people need to get this through your heads. It's not an opinion, nor need it be open for discussion. It is a FACT. Accept it. Why are people so damn stubborn? It isn't OVERcomplicated, it's just broken down scientifically and explained down to the last molecule. I found it very interesting to read, personally and I want to know more. If I were you guys, i would read [email protected]'s posts very thoroughly and listen to what he tells you cuz he knows more than me and he DEFINITELY knows more than most of the people in this section of the forum.


So adding 75% of water new water, full of whatever there is their, and leaving the bacteria to work work work work and die. will help with lowering nitrates? replacing some of the water yes, but not the majority, replacing some means the bacteria HAS to multiply, and is good, replacing the majority subjects the fish to a sudden change in parameters, and overworking baceria is not good


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

The T Lord said:


> Why do people over complicate things? between my and my dad we've had tanks for about 30 years, with about the same amount of tanks.
> Get the tank full of water, add the amount of water conditioner needed, add your decorations (no lives plants at this point) leave it for about a month for your bacteria to build up, get your first fish(go for somethings small, your bottomfeeders would be better as a first fish in the tank) leave them a week minimum, get your second fish (always introduce fish which may be territorial last!!)
> 
> After a month or two their will be regular amounts of nitrate being produced, and the water will be "mature" for your less hardy fish, and live plants.
> ...


wrong


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

The T Lord said:


> So adding 75% of water new water, full of whatever there is their, and leaving the bacteria to work work work work and die. will help with lowering nitrates? replacing some of the water yes, but not the majority, replacing some means the bacteria HAS to multiply, and is good, replacing the majority subjects the fish to a sudden change in parameters, and overworking baceria is not good



As I understand it the fish poo which generates ammonia, this is broken down by the bacteria first to nitrite then nitrate. The majority of these bacteria live on surfaces especially the filter media but and a lesser extent on rocks & plants. There are three parts of sod all of them in the water so when you exchange the water you're not losing anything you want to keep. If the water has 100ppm nitrate content and you do a 75% water change then you could get the nitrate down to 25ppm if you have no nitrate in your fresh water.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> wrong


But isn't this only safe so long as you add dechlorinator to ensure that the chlorine doesn't kill the bacteria in the filter or are you saying the chlorine from a 50% water change would not kill the bacteria?
I expect there's plenty of crap floating around in the aged 50% water for the chlorine to react with in the water so wouldnt be stong enough to do any damage to the filters. I can understand where he's got his thinking from as you shouldn't wash your filter sponge out in a bucket of chlorinated water.
If hes saying the bacteria in the filter will be starve due to lack of crap to feed on I'd say that's rubbish as there's always plenty of crap and microbes multiply like microbes so they'll soon cope with a bit more load.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

ok, let me be more specific



The T Lord said:


> Why do people over complicate things? between my and my dad we've had tanks for about 30 years, with about the same amount of tanks.
> Get the tank full of water, add the amount of water conditioner needed, add your decorations (no lives plants at this point) leave it for about a month for your bacteria to build up - wrong, without something to feed on bacteria cant feed and grow, letting a tank stand does not build up the bacteria needed for waste disposal, scientifically proven - , get your first fish(go for somethings small, your bottomfeeders would be better as a first fish in the tank - please provided source info for this as i would be interested to know the details) leave them a week minimum, get your second fish (always introduce fish which may be territorial last!!)
> 
> After a month or two their will be regular amounts of nitrate being produced - nitrates are wastes we are trying to remove as they are bad for fish growth and survival - , and the water will be "mature" for your less hardy fish, and live plants.
> ...


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Been reading all of steve and HABU's posts again, I :notworthy: to both of you.


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## lionfish (Jul 15, 2009)

kell_boy said:


> Been reading all of steve and HABU's posts again, I :notworthy: to both of you.


 DITTO :no1:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

awwww, cheers guys, i just try to help on the things i know about 

and to dispel myth too, :2thumb:


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## crazysnakeman (May 27, 2010)

Not sure if this type of fish has been mentioned but would be a really easy tropical fish to keep and very interesting to breed, South american killifish, mainly austrolebias types as these like cool water and with most killifish they are not demanding at all.
Also these fish lay eggs in mud which you can dry out and store, then three months later hatch out.


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## crazysnakeman (May 27, 2010)

Austrolebias nigripinnis 'Arroyo Tajamar'

DKG Leistungsschau 2009

Austrolebias nigripinnis ibicuisito - Fórum UBK

Just a couple of links, the last one shows how you spawn these fish.

They are amazing fish as you can hatch them and get them to breeding size in about a month!


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## crazysnakeman (May 27, 2010)

Austrolebias nigripinnis 'Arroyo Tajamar'

DKG Leistungsschau 2009

Austrolebias nigripinnis ibicuisito - Fórum UBK

Just a couple of links, the last one shows how you spawn these fish.

They are amazing fish as you can hatch them and get them to breeding size in about a month!


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

The T Lord said:


> So adding 75% of water new water, full of whatever there is their, and leaving the bacteria to work work work work and die. will help with lowering nitrates? replacing some of the water yes, but not the majority, replacing some means the bacteria HAS to multiply, and is good, replacing the majority subjects the fish to a sudden change in parameters, and overworking baceria is not good


The bacteria is mostly concentrated in the filter etc etc. NOT in the open water.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

I'm just having a discussion with someone on the tropical fish forum. He actually adds 60-80ppm nitrate to his tank every other day to boost his plant growth. His tank looks really clean with really healthy plants and fish. When I asked him why he needs to add nitrate and expressed my concern for what the nitrate will do to the fish eg stunting he asked me to show him the evidence saying his fish and shrimp had were healthy. I'll see what else I can find out.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/jsbss/journal/docs/article/v18/BSS_18_7.pdf



> The results of our experiment suggest that the high mortality resulting from the short term acute exposure to nitrate is caused by general dysfunction throughout the whole body. The chronic toxic effects attributed to nitrate, following long term exposure, were likely to have resulted from nutrient defficiency caused by hepatic dysfunction


there is also a paper documenting a similar experiment at concentrations of 60 and 80 mg somewhere that i'll try to find.
the mortality rate was lower, but the test subjects still exhibited growth defects and cytological damage in liver and kidneys in the long term (90 days)


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

nitrates have to be really high to harm the fish majorly... and plants do suck the nitrates up... it's fertilizer...

ammonia and nitrites that are bad.... well really bad at higher Ph...

amonia get converted at high PH to... aw let me find a link that explains it well...



here you go... here's some good info...
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/ammoniapoison.htm
*Unionized Ammonia (NH3)*
*Description:*

Ammonia poisoning is one of the biggest killers of aquarium fish. It occurs most often when a tank is newly set up. However, it can also occur in an established tank when too many new fish have been added at one time, when the filter fails due to power or mechanical failure, or if bacterial colonies die off due to the use of medications or sudden change in water conditions.
*Symptoms:*

Fish gasp for breath at the water surface
Purple or red gills
Fish is lethargic
Loss of appetite 
Fish lays at the bottom of the tank
Red streaking on the fins or body

Ammonia poisoning can happen suddenly, or over a period of days. Initially the fish may be seen gasping at the surface for air. The gills will begin to turn red or lilac in color, and may appear to be bleeding. The fish will being to lose its appetite and become increasingly lethargic. In some cases fish may be observed laying at the bottom of the tank with clamped fins.
As the damage from the ammonia poisoning continues, the tissues will be damaged as evidenced by red streaks or bloody patches that appear on the body and fins. Internal damage is occurring to the brain, organs, and central nervous system. The fish begins to hemorrhage internally and externally, and eventually dies.
*Treatment:*

Lower pH below 7.0
25 - 50% water change 
Use chemical to neutralize ammonia
Discontinue or reduce feeding 

If the ammonia level rises above 1 ppm as measured by a standard test kit, begin treatment immediately. Lowering the pH of the water will provide immediate relief, as will a 50% water change (be sure to use water that is the same temperature as the aquarium). Several water changes within a short period of time may be required to drop the ammonia to below 1 ppm.
If the fish are in severe distress, the use of a chemical to neutralize the ammonia is recommended. Feedings should be restricted so that additional waste is reduced. In cases of very high ammonia levels, feedings should be discontinued for several days. No new fish should be added until the tank until the ammonia and nitrite levels have fallen to zero.
Because ammonia toxicity is linked to the pH, testing of both ammonia and pH levels are critical. Ammonia becomes increasingly toxic as the pH rises above 7.0. Because there are so many variables, there is no magic number to watch for. However, there are general guidelines to follow.
At a level of level of 1 ppm or 1 mg/l, fish are under stress, even if they don't appear in acute distress. Levels even lower than that can be fatal if the fish are exposed continuously for several days. For that reason it is critical to continue daily testing and treatment until the ammonia drops to zero. When ammonia is elevated for a long period, it is not unusual to lose fish even after the ammonia levels start to drop. 

*Prevention:*

Stock new tanks slowly
Feed sparingly and remove uneaten food
Change water regularly
Test water regularly to catch problems early

The key to avoiding fish death from ammonia poisoning is to avoid ammonia spikes in the first place. When starting a new tank, add only a couple of fish initially and do not add more until the tank is completely cycled. Even in an well established tank, only add a couple of new fish at a time and avoid overstocking. 
Feed fish small quantities of foods, and remove any food not consumed in five minutes. Clean the tank weekly, taking care to remove an dead plants or other debris. Perform a partial water change at least every other week, more often in small heavily stocked tanks. Test the water for ammonia at least twice a month to detect problems before they become serious. 
Anytime a fish appears to be ill, test for ammonia to rule out ammonia poisoning. If the filter stops, test for ammonia twenty-four hours later to ensure that the bacterial colonies that eliminate wastes were not affected. 

*Other Diseases*


Nitrite Poisoning
Columnaris
Velvet
*Suggested Reading*


Nitrogen Cycle
Disease Diagnosis
Disease Treatment
*New posts to the Freshwater Aquariums forums:*


Sagittaria subulata
cycling tank
Need Help identifing a Tetra
*Related Articles*


Health - Ammonia Poisoning - Printer Friendly
The Nitrogen Cycle
Health - Nitrite Poisoning - Printer Friendly
Aquarium Water Testing
Fish Disease - Nitrite Poisoning


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## Doodle (Aug 7, 2008)

The only reason i can see for a large water change causes bacteria numbers to fluctuate is because the bacteria cultures in the filter etc require a set amount of ammonia and nitrIte per hour to survive. When you do a large change, you remove these (along with a lot of detritus that is creating these contaminants)... i could see how this would lead to a break down of the food change.

Clearly this wouldnt be a problem with a messy fish like Goldies/predators. However with cleaner fish, or tanks that have been messy for a while, i would imagine it could cause some problems as ammonia and nitrite/nitrate levels fluctuate in response to the varying availiability of food


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## kell_boy (May 30, 2010)

Doodle said:


> The only reason i can see for a large water change causes bacteria numbers to fluctuate is because the bacteria cultures in the filter etc require a set amount of ammonia and nitrIte per hour to survive. When you do a large change, you remove these (along with a lot of detritus that is creating these contaminants)... i could see how this would lead to a break down of the food change.
> 
> Clearly this wouldnt be a problem with a messy fish like Goldies/predators. However with cleaner fish, or tanks that have been messy for a while, i would imagine it could cause some problems as ammonia and nitrite/nitrate levels fluctuate in response to the varying availiability of food


If water changes in any way drastically yes it can shock fish.

I remember a guy who had 160ppm nitrates once, he asked me If he should do a big water change I told him absolutely not, and that he would have to gradually lower it, as it would be a massive shock to the system for his fish.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

Steve, that evidence looks pretty conclusive to me thanks for that, I've passed it on for him to read and he's passed this onto me which I will have a look at when I get time.

Do You Struggle With Tapwater Nitrates ? - Tropical Fish Forums


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