# Venom Talk... Venom Experts Sought



## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

I am interested to chat about the "allergic reaction" from venom.

It seems that anyone can have an especially allergic reaction to a snake regardless of whether it is non-DWA venomous or DWA.

This is particularly dangerous in DWAv species of course.

What I don't understand is why we hear words like "they had an especially allergic reaction" whenever non-DWA venomous species are concerned?

(noting that some nDWAv have quite potent toxins albeit in less effective delivery "systems" or much smaller quantities)

Yet if someone is bit by say a Crotalus atrox, people generally speaking, are more inclined to believe "oh that was a bad bite, must have delivered a high dose".

Surely if even the lymphatic system (in some cases) received noticable effects resulting in (for instance fatigue/pain) it is much more likely that it was purely the venom?

Also an effective strike into the blood&lymph system and perhaps a higher than average yield may also have contributed to this.

Personally I think there are loads of factors contributing to this, but is it "allergic reaction". 

Surely the body reacts to any venomous bite anyway, and dependant on the venom the immune system reacts accordingly?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

My understanding is that you cannot have an allergic reaction to a foreign chemical that the body has never previously encountered.
This is why those that develop an allergry to, say, bee or wasp stings, have increasingly severe reactions to subsequent stings.


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*thanks*

thanks for this ian.

to be honest I don't know, but i really think its a complicated and important subject.

probably do some reading on it just out of interest really.

if anyone has any further medical or venom/toxicology experience to add to Ian's input then this would be most welcome :welcome:


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Wikipedia*

This is on Wikipedia:

Medication
Any medication may potentially trigger anaphylaxis. The most common to do so include antibiotics (β-lactam antibiotics in particular), aspirin, ibuprofen, and other analgesics.[9] Some drugs (polymyxin, morphine, x-ray contrast and others) may cause an "anaphylactoid" reaction (anaphylactic-like reaction) on the _first exposure_.[17] This is usually due to a toxic reaction, rather than the immune system mechanism that occurs with "true" anaphylaxis. The symptoms, risk for complications without treatment, and treatment are the same, however, for both types of reactions. Some vaccinations are also known to cause "anaphylactoid" reactions.[18]
*Venom*

Venom from stinging or biting insects such as Hymenoptera or Hemiptera may induce anaphylaxis in susceptible people.[9]
*Pathophysiology*

Anaphylaxis is a severe, whole-body allergic reaction. After an initial exposure "sensitizing dose" to a substance like bee sting toxin, the person's immune system becomes sensitized to that allergen. On a subsequent exposure "shocking dose", an allergic reaction occurs. This reaction is sudden, severe, and involves the whole body.
_________________________________

Venom and its subsequent effect sure is a complex subject!


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## Mr Sticks (Aug 25, 2010)

There was also a scientific paper in the late 70's suggesting snake venom contains bacteria JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie which could easily prompt anaphylaxis type reaction.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

I attended a lecture by David Williams of the PNG snakebite project. 
He spoke of cases where people had had allergic reactions to snake bite with no previous bites, but had been exposed to aerosolised venom particles from the milking process. He also said that on rare occasions allergy was noted in people whose only exposure was cleaning snakes out, suggesting that there are substances found in snake urine and/or faeces, presumably proteins, that can cause sensitization to venom.


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*thanks*



terciopelo_dave said:


> I attended a lecture by David Williams of the PNG snakebite project.
> He spoke of cases where people had had allergic reactions to snake bite with no previous bites, but had been exposed to aerosolised venom particles from the milking process. He also said that on rare occasions allergy was noted in people whose only exposure was cleaning snakes out, suggesting that there are substances found in snake urine and/or faeces, presumably proteins, that can cause sensitization to venom.


sounds very feasible. 

If someone gets bitten by a nDWAvenomous snake and it flairs up nastily (including lymph discomfort) it is surely more likely to be purely the effect of the venom. i'd say anyway.

Boiga sp. have been known to give some nasty bite symptoms. FWCs have been done so also, particularly with excessive chewing.

What I am trying to do (I suppose) is get away from this "oh its an allergic flair up" talk when it isn't proven or even likely.

of course true anaphylatic shock is a totally different story! 

:welcome::lol2:


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

maffy said:


> sounds very feasible.
> 
> If someone gets bitten by a nDWAvenomous snake and it flairs up nastily (including lymph discomfort) it is surely more likely to be purely the effect of the venom. i'd say anyway.
> 
> ...


 Very true. People are far too keen to play the "allergy" card after a bad bite. The adder is a prime example. 
Genuine allergy can obviously arise, even following a seemingly benign bite, but venomous effect can never be discounted.


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*adder*

:2thumb: absolutely!

You've reminded me of that, thanks. Adders.

The story usually goes:

"BillyWhatisface was today bitten by an adder and suffered a remarkable allergic reaction that gave him all the usual effects of being bitten by a toxic snake like a Crotalus Atrox".

Yeah right... the UK NHS website lists none other than respiratory difficulty as a possible symptom of adder bite.

Adders as we know, are vipers and (people say) it <REALLY> hurts. Viperkeeper Al Coritz description of viper bites is a very useful analogy. 

The pain is likely so intense along with the amount of venom that some people (quite understandably!) go into shock like the fairly recent and most unfortunate guy who picked one up.

Shock, most certainly yes. Anaphylactic? Unlikely.


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*NHS Website*

Bites, Snake - Symptoms - NHS Choices


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## Cleopatra the Royal (Nov 29, 2008)

i seem to recall an article in the local paper not that long ago about a man that was bitten by an 'adder' with a mobile phone picture of the snake that looked nothing like an adder. the man said 'the bite swelled up and REALLY hurt, i think i've developed an allergy to their poison [venom] - it couldn't have done that as adder poison [venom] is very weak'.

surprise surprise he had never seen a snake before, and it was most likely not an allergic reaction. 'allergy' is thrown around too carelessly nowerdays.

i think that most of the 'allergy' problems is just a reaction to foreign proteins entering the body, and the person not knowing the difference between the pain of the bite and an allergy.

Well thats my view on it anyway,
Harry


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Cleopatra the Royal said:


> i seem to recall an article in the local paper not that long ago about a man that was bitten by an 'adder' with a mobile phone picture of the snake that looked nothing like an adder. the man said 'the bite swelled up and REALLY hurt, i think i've developed an allergy to their poison [venom] - it couldn't have done that as adder poison [venom] is very weak'.
> 
> surprise surprise he had never seen a snake before, and it was most likely not an allergic reaction. 'allergy' is thrown around too carelessly nowerdays.
> 
> ...


Well, that depends on which Adder you're reffering to, Bitis arietans, the Puff Adder, Acanthophis antarcticus/praelongus, the Australian Death Adder or Vipera berus, the European Adder. This is why I don't really like common names, typically when someone says "adder" i think of Vipera berus, but you never can tell. If you go and buy an "adder" and you're expecting to get a smaller snake w/ a mild venom, and the guy sells you a Death Adder or a Puff Adder, and you get bit......you're in BIG trouble. 

Puff Adders are extremely aggressive, and have extremely potent hemotoxin w/ about 40-60% mortality rate making it one of the most feared snakes in Africa, rivaled only by the Mambas (Dendroaspis), Boomslang (Dispholidus typus) and Saw-Scaled Vipers (Echis carinatus). I believe the Australian Death Adder, a highly dangerous Elapid possessing a lethal neurotoxin is even worse than the aformentioned.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Victor Creed said:


> Well, that depends on which Adder you're reffering to, Bitis arietans, the Puff Adder, Acanthophis antarcticus/praelongus, the Australian Death Adder or Vipera berus, the European Adder. This is why I don't really like common names, typically when someone says "adder" i think of Vipera berus, but you never can tell. If you go and buy an "adder" and you're expecting to get a smaller snake w/ a mild venom, and the guy sells you a Death Adder or a Puff Adder, and you get bit......you're in BIG trouble.
> 
> Puff Adders are extremely aggressive, and have extremely potent hemotoxin w/ about 40-60% mortality rate making it one of the most feared snakes in Africa, rivaled only by the Mambas (Dendroaspis), Boomslang (Dispholidus typus) and Saw-Scaled Vipers (Echis carinatus). I believe the Australian Death Adder, a highly dangerous Elapid possessing a lethal neurotoxin is even worse than the aformentioned.


You sound alarmingly like viper lover.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

terciopelo_dave said:


> You sound alarmingly like viper lover.


Indeed, but I beleive they should exist in the wild where they belong, not your typical friendly snake you can set on your shoulder and blow kisses at...LOLOLOL. I only kept one Pit Viper, a Dusky Pygmy Rattlesnake (Sistrurus miliarius) and I got rid of it cuz I was concerned about my new puppy and a potential escapee. 

People, PLEASE be responsible with your venomous snakes. They are not to be taken lightly and are a very serious matter. I was a fool for making a Rattlesnake my 1st venomous snake, I should have started w/ Copperheads, and I was almost bitten twice.....but I figured since i had already caught over a dozen in the wild as well as Florida Cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorous contanti) and a 6 foot Eastern Daimondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus Adamanteus) that I could handle it.

I looooove venomous animals and u might say im infatuated by them, but they need to be respected. Keeping them in the home should be reserved for single male/females without children, dogs or cats and ALOT of experience and hands-on training.....as well as a back-up supply of antivenin.


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## -k- (Sep 1, 2006)

anaphylactic shock is a type 1 hypersensitivity reaction that happens when the body is exposed to a certain allergen. 

From the little i know of snake venom toxicity they can by cyto/neuro/haemo toxins. These vemons produce symptoms easily distinguishable from anaphylaxis 

If a person has a hypersensitivity to adder venom then they can enter anaphylaxis when bitten. If they do not have the hypersensitivity they will not. Either way they will still suffer pain from the bite itself and the toxins within the venom 

therefore the two can happen simultaneously but are independant pathways - one cannot set off the other 

Its also worth mentioning that anaphylaxis is a very intense allergic reactions and people can have less severe non-anaphylactic reactions to snake bite that would produce local symptoms and could be confused with certain physiological responses to snake bites

k


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

Victor Creed said:


> Indeed, but I beleive they should exist in the wild where they belong, not your typical friendly snake you can set on your shoulder and blow kisses at...LOLOLOL. I only kept one Pit Viper, a Dusky Pygmy Rattlesnake (Sistrurus miliarius) and I got rid of it cuz I was concerned about my new puppy and a potential escapee.
> 
> People, PLEASE be responsible with your venomous snakes. They are not to be taken lightly and are a very serious matter. I was a fool for making a Rattlesnake my 1st venomous snake, I should have started w/ Copperheads, and I was almost bitten twice.....but I figured since i had already caught over a dozen in the wild as well as Florida Cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorous contanti) and a 6 foot Eastern Daimondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus Adamanteus) that I could handle it.
> 
> I looooove venomous animals and u might say im infatuated by them, but they need to be respected. Keeping them in the home should be reserved for single male/females without children, dogs or cats and ALOT of experience and hands-on training.....as well as a back-up supply of antivenin.


Yes you really do sound like viper lover. 

Mainly because this has nothing to do with the originating post about "allergies to venom".

And also because the last piece of information about keeping anti-venin is complete nonsense unless someone is highly medically proficient.

However since you have dished out misleading information I do think it is advisable and sensible for a DWA licence holder to check with the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine (ARVRU) what anti-venins they have readily available before buying your DWA listed snake.


:welcome:


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*anaphylaxis*



-k- said:


> anaphylactic shock is a type 1 hypersensitivity reaction that happens when the body is exposed to a certain allergen.
> 
> From the little i know of snake venom toxicity they can by cyto/neuro/haemo toxins. These vemons produce symptoms easily distinguishable from anaphylaxis
> 
> ...


indeed noted, thanks k.

An allergen is something the body has developed a sensitivity to.

People bitten by adders generally haven't come into contact with adders before. So i say (according to the rules of how an allergic reaction develops) its must be the effects of the venom.

Breathing difficulties are noted amongst adder bites (European Adders). 

This is a reaction to the venom and the heart/breathing difficulties can occur when a patient enters shock due to the venom or their bodys pain response due to its intensity.

Shock and anaphylactic shock. Two different things.

I believe that certainly in the case of wild bite encounters the latter is by far and wide incorrectly used.


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

-k- said:


> anaphylactic shock is a type 1 hypersensitivity reaction that happens when the body is exposed to a certain allergen.
> 
> From the little i know of snake venom toxicity they can by cyto/neuro/haemo toxins. These vemons produce symptoms easily distinguishable from anaphylaxis
> 
> ...


V berus venom apart from causing the typical localised swelling (may include the whole limb) and coagulation issues, aslo triggers vaso dilators such as bradykinins, histamine, etc which can cause 'allergy like symptoms' i.e. shortness of breath, facial/throat swelling, drop in BP etc.

Some individuals who are highly sensitive to venom, those that typicaly work with venom, especially dried venom. When exposed to the venom, either via a bite or absorbtion have a high potential of having a severe reaction i.e. anaphylaxis. 

Not everyone becomes so sensitive, PDR for example, has worked with venoms for the past 2 decades but doesn't appear to have any sensitivity issues towards venom. Where as BGF has an epi pen with him due to his severe reactions to venom.


John


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## -k- (Sep 1, 2006)

interesting information JohnR 

i would be interested to find out the composition of adder venom in terms of the toxins it contains - does anyone know?

also John do you know the mechanism by which the venom stimulates release of bradykinins and histamines - it is my understanding that histamine and bradykinin are products of a working immune system,

is it the venom itself that activates the cells that release/synthesize histamine and bradykinin, or is it the body's immune system that causes the release of these chemicals in response to the venom?


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

I am no venom expert but have had some personal experience and assisted other. Everyone’s body system is different thus will react differently.
It’s like two people being exposed to someones cold or flu. One could be immune or just has some symptoms and all good while the other spends a couple of days in bed. 
The reaction to a weak snake bite envenomation is that same. One will be at deaths door while another has no side effects.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Get Viperlover back on here to share his (armchair) expertise:lol2:


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

stuartdouglas said:


> Get Viperlover back on here to share his (armchair) expertise:lol2:


Ive banned that kid from my email and face book. Dang couldn't take anymore advice.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

*Oooh Sh**t*

I just realized 2 things a.) this "Viper Lover" you guys have been referring to is and actual person ....i thought I was being asked If I like the Viper genus as a whole. I was totally unaware.

and b.) I did not even realize this HAD a 1st page, or should I say I thought post#11 (which I mistook for post#1) was the topic at hand, due to the fact that when I clicked on the link it automatically took me directly to that post and when I saw it , it appeared as the only post in the thread. Not sure how that happened, but an honest mistake.

My goal was trying to figure exactly which snake was being discussed, and while after I read a few responses I didn't quite see what was so off-topic about it, but I JUST found page one right now and it's pretty obvious reading back...LOLOLOLOL no WONDER!!! My apologies gentlemen.

Also as a side note, getting your own antivenin to bring with you to the hospital is not such a bad idea, since the variety of species is daunting and why risk the hospital NOT having the type you need? I'm aware King Kobra bites have been treated with Tiger Snake and Taipan venom and vice versa, but why risk it?

Also, I don't have a DWA liscence. Here in America, it depends where you are located as to what animals you can keep permit or not, and the species I'm referring to having kept were many, many, MANY years ago. I don't have any DWA species anymore for reasons I listed in my previous posts.


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*Viperlover*



Victor Creed said:


> I just realized 2 things a.) this "Viper Lover" you guys have been referring to is and actual person ....i thought I was being asked If I like the Viper genus as a whole. I was totally unaware.
> 
> and b.) I did not even realize this HAD a 1st page, or should I say I thought post#11 (which I mistook for post#1) was the topic at hand, due to the fact that when I clicked on the link it automatically took me directly to that post and when I saw it , it appeared as the only post in the thread. Not sure how that happened, but an honest mistake.
> 
> ...


The thing is people like James couldn't fool people like Terciopelo Dave.

:lol2: 

Maybe its a sales thing.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

im not James, Im not "Viper Lover", and I'm pretty sure your Moderators and Administrators already know this from my IP address. Now, please....treat me like a noob and forgive me for an honest mistake. perhaps i need glasses.


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

No worries Victor Creed spend time around James and you will also become a little jittery and start seeing more in shadows than what was there.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

So is this "Viper Lover's" name James or are they 2 different people or what? I am completely new here and have no idea what is going on, but I did look on the Members list for a username "Viper Lover" so I could try and put 2 and 2 together, but I didn't see him anywhere. Does anyone want to explain to me what's the deal?


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

Victor Creed said:


> So is this "Viper Lover's" name James


Yes this over experienced miner is every International Herpetologists nightmare because if James Mintram (ViperLover) has not approved it science would naturally have to wait till he does.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Victor Creed said:


> So is this "Viper Lover's" name James or are they 2 different people or what? I am completely new here and have no idea what is going on, but I did look on the Members list for a username "Viper Lover" so I could try and put 2 and 2 together, but I didn't see him anywhere. Does anyone want to explain to me what's the deal?


Sorry for the confusion Victor, you just have a similar writing style to that used by James when he is trying to sound intelligent.
If you search the forums for "viper lover" you'll find out all you need to know about him. And for the record, thankfully, he's banned from this and most other forums.


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

oh....double oh sh**t....what did he get banned for and have I been doing something that I might get banned for as well? I hope not, I came here for advice, but I try to share the limited knowledge I have w/ others. Nobody knows EVERYTHING, but I figure if we work together and help each other, maybe one day we CAN collectively know everything as a group. 

*edit* I just realized I typed King Kobra with "K"....hahahaha


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

where you from victor?


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## maffy (Dec 24, 2008)

*venom talk*

BRILLIANT!

:lol2:

and consistent.


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