# Neglect or not??



## fuzzielady

I bought these geckos for £180. 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizard-classifieds/151910-crested-geckos.html
They were picked up by rep taxi on Saturday evening. They immediately had concerns about one in particular, they 
contacted the seller who in turn told me but she assured me she hadn't noticed anything wrong. I thought ok, a bit 
extra calcium and maybe a uvb light, obviously can't be that bad or she would have noticed. They were brought to me 
on Sunday. It was obvious they had severe MBD. The bigger of the 2 had very swollen joints, this is what rep taxi 
had spotted, the back legs were also very rubbery when she tried to walk up a slight slope and her spine seemed to 
snake as she was walking. The smaller one appeared to be the same apart from the joints were less swollen. I later 
fed them by hand with CGD, I added calcium as they were obviously needing it. Once it started eating the smaller 
one couldn't close its mouth. It looked as though its jaw bone was bending down the way. Seller said she had hand 
fed them a week ago and it was fine. They came with their own exo terra, 45x45x60 which with them being so ill was 
no good. They couldn't climb properly and they were scooping up mouthfuls of eco earth. I moved them into a small 
temporary carrier until I could get something more suitable. I contacted seller regards my concerns and after 
feeding them it became obvious that they were going to have a long expensive road to recovery. I asked the seller 
for half my money back. To begin with she said ok since she didn't have a choice. She then sent me a text saying as 
far as she was concerned they were ok when they left her and if I wasn't happy with them to return them and she 
would refund me the £180 but I was to organise and pay the transport. I agreed as long as she paid half the 
transport to get them back to her and that she get them to a vet. Once she got the quote she decided to just give 
me £90 back. On Monday it cost me £90 for a 30x30c30 exo terra, UVB and starter unit. That was on my way to the 
vets where they were xrayed and given 3 months worth of calcium liquid. Vet was shocked by the xray. Says he has 
never seen MBD so bad. The xrays hardly showed the bones at all. Small bones didn't show up and the bigger ones 
were very very faint lines. Only bit that showed white were calcified bone in their jaws. Vet says this has not 
happened over a few days or weeks it has taken months for them to get like that and no way could someone not notice 
especially the one that can't shut it's mouth after eating. I was up until 3am keeping an eye on them. Tuesday I 
got up to find the bigger of the 2 passed away through the night. Contacted seller and told her, also told her what 
had happened at the vets. She went from saying "I didn't know anything was wrong" to "I feel so guilty" to "I 
didn't neglect them" to "I'm not solely responsible for this and feel that I'm getting full blame" Surely the sole 
carer is to blame? She feels so guilty that she hasn't offered to pay anything towards vet or give me back the 
other £90 and when I commented on this was told "but you have the equipment they came with" so that would be the 
empty one that is no good to them. Doesn't matter that I have spent a fortune in 2 days and will keep paying till 
the remaining one is out the woods, if it even makes it.

So is this neglect?
How do you stop this happening to anyone else? Even though they are obviously better here than there.


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## ditta

my poor babies, im really unhappy that a. one has died, and b. that the other one is very ill, though it isnt much comfort im happy that it is with you as i know, even if it dies it will be cared for in its last hours. i hope to god it doesnt die and know that you willl do all you can for it, i just wish i hadnt left it where it was, but i had no choice and couldnt force them to come with me or else other animals might have been at suffering <<seller knows what i mean>>. i just wish i could make this right but i cant. i am obviously not the seller but they were my babies once, and wish they were still my babies now, i wish you all the best with the last one remaining and i wont be able to sleep properly until i know the other one is ok, helena, ring me if you need me 

cat xxx


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## Vase

Thats a real shame but huge respect for taking them on and doing what you can. :notworthy:

Name and shame!


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## SWsarah

Thats just awful how did the seller not know.
What diet was the seller feeding them, sounds like only baby food. I brought a group that were only fed on baby food and they were awful, i even thought one had died but it was playing tricks on me.

You should demand you £90 back also sell the larger exo terra to pay for some of the vets bills.


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## Razzler79

oh so sad to read your post, you're doing all you can!
hope the other one pulls through!!


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## DeanThorpe

so were they fed crested gecko diet?
just wondered as i know its meant to be a good diet...and when i sugested adding calcium to it once i was shown a thread by allan rapashy [or however its spelt] stating how adding any amount of calcium to the mix is bad news as it contains plenty..
so how does a pair of cresties fed cgd get mbd?


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## sparkle

Helena...


I dont even have the proper words..

I knew about this before you posted and felt it wasnt my place to say until you did.. I am just devestated that any animal was allowed to suffer this way.

the fact is yes its horrific negelct. the seller DID know as she Pmed several forumites on here with worries before she sold to you.. then when this errupted begged them not to tell you... she was even told by the courrier and she denied anything was wrong the say you got them...

The story behind this was.. there were FOUR crested geckos 6 months ago all kept together at same house.. ALL FINE.. then when the seller and her partner split up .. they splitthe four and had 2 each. The ones the other person has are 100% fine.. yet the ones your SELLER kept this happened to.

The fact the seller said she didnt notice really worries me.

If she didnt notice cresties with jaws lose and tongues hanging out then what must her other animals be like.

And if she is keeping other reps and cant even notice serious fatal MBD how can she say she can possibly notice ilness in the rest of her animals.

I have been to lawries vets before with various rescue animals , some with what i thought was extremely bad MBD.. but nothing like this...

For Lawries vets to say it is the worst case theyhave ever seen is unbelievable. He has been practicing for decades as a Herp vet so I imagine he has seem some pretty bad cases.

You stop it happening by posts like this.

Showing people that a baby food diet and lack of proper feeding and calcium and supplements DOES NOT WORK.


people assume cresties are easy.. no extra heat no UV etc..

But frankly when something goes wrong with cresties they are so delicate with their fragile jaw bones etc that they just cant cope..

they need proper feeding and supplementation..

For the seller to say I DIDNT KNOW when she had a crested gecko care book she sent you is pathetic..

She uses the forum... theres the internet.. and she keeps lots of leos and has had beardies too... this time that excuse doesnt wash...

Cresties need spot cleaning every day... proper clean outs once a week ( i use f10) and you need to keep an eye on their progress to make sure they are keeping or gainaing weight etc..

the crickets for cresties are NOT the size between their eyes as thats very wide it should be 2/3 and no longer than the snout to the eyes... large crix can cause digestive issues and choking..

I am so sorry helena... I really am..

I hope to goodness the seller cleans up her act with the rest of her aniamls and realises just because reptiles arent wandering round the house barking and whining or miowing when something is wrong they should never ever be ignored ...

I hope the other one pulls through... I really do...


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## sparkle

DeanThorpe said:


> so were they fed crested gecko diet?
> just wondered as i know its meant to be a good diet...and when i sugested adding calcium to it once i was shown a thread by allan rapashy [or however its spelt] stating how adding any amount of calcium to the mix is bad news as it contains plenty..
> so how does a pair of cresties fed cgd get mbd?


 
i think dean that for cresties to get into this state even if cgd was fed theres no way on earth its been fed properly or often enough..

i also feed live dusted crix..

I did an experiment with my 3 females for 6 weeks

2 i fed CGD and crix..

1 i fed ONLY cgd

the 1 i fed only cgd gained 1 gram in 6 weeks

the 2 i fed cgd AND crix gained 6 grams..


i rest my case..

although repashy etc is very learned about cresties i think its up to the keeper to observe and decide from observation and also trialing various things.. like live food and UV etc

cresties may be bale to be kept without UV but would they be better with it..

some suggest a dawn and dusk UV as often in the wild cresties can be seen basking in UV at those times..

I am introducing this soon to see if it makes a difference...


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## Athravan

Assigning blame is to be honest, often a hard task. Getting vet money off sellers who believe their animals were "healthy" is like pulling teeth. This is unfortunately one of the huge downfalls of buying unseen if you do not know the person you are buying from.

If however, as Sparkle says - the seller actually had concerns and voiced those to concerns to people before selling them, and therefore knowingly sold them with health problems, which can be proved.... then I would demand every penny of your money back and the courier cost, or you will be reporting them for neglect, cruelty & fraud. There is absolutely no excuse for selling an animal and passing the buck on a problem you knew was there - it's fraud, plain and simple.

I am not saying that the above is what has happened, I am saying IF there is proof that it has happened.. then you can proceed, I don't actually know the ins and out of this situation at all.

Sadly, even with books, and the internet, ignorance is fairly rife and I have had genuine people who have brought me animals into the shop to sell and I have been shocked at their condition, emaciated, MBD etc.. and the seller really doesn't realise how wrong it is!

The priority has to be getting the remaining gecko back to health - getting the seller to change their ways IF they have more reptiles, it is more important to make sure they understand how this happened, and how to look after their other animals properly, than to extract money at the moment.


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## sparkle

There is proof christy... whther the forumites who received the Pms are willing to show this or not is really another thing... If i had received one I would definately not have an issue sharing that... as you probably know

Im not 100% sure whether those forumites kept the Pms...
I hope they did. I am sure they can be asked by helena, 


The sad thing is that when questioned about the Pms the seller said she only voiced them due to panic but realised after voicing them she was being over worried and no nothing was wrong at the time she asked..

to me thats a total get out clause.

As for the money...

The little one thats stil alive may need extensive vet bills and treatment and I feel that whilst the buyer will do this regardless of refund the refund should happen if the seller cares about the health of the remaining crestie.

if i had sold a crestie in that state id not only do a full refund I would want to pay for the vet bills.

I am worried for the remaining animals in this sellers care... and if she genuinely states she didnt know.. ( although thats dubious considering the questions she asked other forumites) then how would she know if her other animals were sick..

MBD this bad is VERY obvious... how would a keepoer notice less obvious issues in her reps...

I feel so sorry this has happened and whilst ignorance is a reason... for a keeper whos kept reps as long as this seler its not really an excuse as such..


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## Ally

Remember you are entitled to leave bad feedback throught iTrader.
I always check this before buying from someone - it's a very useful resource.


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## fuzzielady

First of all the remaining one has made it through another night. When I contacted the rep vet yesterday he said to forget food for a couple of days and try Critical care formula. I have been doing this since yesterday and she is looking better for it. 

I have left iTrader feedback. She has mentioned making a new account though so none of this will stick. As for naming and shaming I have added the link for the classified thread.

They were fed a gecko/gargoyle diet which I was sent a big tub off. She mixed it with baby food. I couldn't smell any fruit etc of it so don't know if maybe it had lost it's goodness so I threw it away. It is possible the food could have something to do with it even though Cat is still using the same food and also mixes it with baby food I think and hers are not like this. Would depend how much baby food. Even then though she apparently hand fed them a week before they came to me and has sprayed the glass and saw them drink. If that is true how could she not notice the wee ones jaw. As soon as he eats/laps etc she can't close it. When Cat and Ditta brought them in I took her out the cricket tub, her mouth was open. Has anyone known cresties to sit with their mouths open?? After eating etc you can see where the bone is bending. Which is what is making her care so difficult. Normally little and often to build anything up I am trying to keep this ones mouth closed which is why the vet said to get critical care. Once back onto gecko food I've to mix with calcium, as told by vet, normally you should never add calcium or extra vitamins etc but this is extreme. 

I told the vet I had been looking online for xrays with regards to MBD and the only one I could find was loads better than theirs. He said I could probably look for ever and not find ones that bad. He is sending me pics of the xrays so I will post them.

If the seller is so greedy that money means more than the cresties fine. I didn't ask for it anyway just commented that if she felt as guilty as she said she would have offered it. The cresties wellbeing is more important than money so the remaining one will get all the care it needs. Best thing she even did was sell them, just wish she had done it before they got into that state.


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## sparkle

Alert t-bo to her idea of making a new account based on this..

that is a very manipulative move and one I am sure people would severely frown on.


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## freekygeeky

its awful it really is, sorry for your loss, r.i.p little one.
just keep trying , DONT give up. geckos can get through MBD many people on here have done so, me included. CGD is fine, perfect, but if mixed with otherthings, its diluted so doesnt do ''its job'' so to speak, i have to add a little somethign to mine forthe rescues but hardly anything, maybe too much baby food was added?
keep going, get some critical care, some CGD in him etc etc, keep going, and again dont give up. good luck

Gina


p.s pics when you get them, and when you do so, please may i use them on my site? (website?) i am writing a section on MBD with pics of my geckos, but i dont have an xraya to help.


fuzzielady said:


> First of all the remaining one has made it through another night. When I contacted the rep vet yesterday he said to forget food for a couple of days and try Critical care formula. I have been doing this since yesterday and she is looking better for it.
> 
> I have left iTrader feedback. She has mentioned making a new account though so none of this will stick. As for naming and shaming I have added the link for the classified thread.
> 
> They were fed a gecko/gargoyle diet which I was sent a big tub off. She mixed it with baby food. I couldn't smell any fruit etc of it so don't know if maybe it had lost it's goodness so I threw it away. It is possible the food could have something to do with it even though Cat is still using the same food and also mixes it with baby food I think and hers are not like this. Would depend how much baby food. Even then though she apparently hand fed them a week before they came to me and has sprayed the glass and saw them drink. If that is true how could she not notice the wee ones jaw. As soon as he eats/laps etc she can't close it. When Cat and Ditta brought them in I took her out the cricket tub, her mouth was open. Has anyone known cresties to sit with their mouths open?? After eating etc you can see where the bone is bending. Which is what is making her care so difficult. Normally little and often to build anything up I am trying to keep this ones mouth closed which is why the vet said to get critical care. Once back onto gecko food I've to mix with calcium, as told by vet, normally you should never add calcium or extra vitamins etc but this is extreme.
> 
> I told the vet I had been looking online for xrays with regards to MBD and the only one I could find was loads better than theirs. He said I could probably look for ever and not find ones that bad. He is sending me pics of the xrays so I will post them.
> 
> If the seller is so greedy that money means more than the cresties fine. I didn't ask for it anyway just commented that if she felt as guilty as she said she would have offered it. The cresties wellbeing is more important than money so the remaining one will get all the care it needs. Best thing she even did was sell them, just wish she had done it before they got into that state.


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## ratboy

sparkle said:


> Alert t-bo to her idea of making a new account based on this..
> 
> that is a very manipulative move and one I am sure people would severely frown on.


It always amazes me just how dumb some people are. It reminds me of the James Bond thing where the bad guy tells James his plan on how to destroy or rule the world and is then surprised when James uses the information to stop them.


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## fuzzielady

Yeah Gina help yourself. I have pics of the bend in the wee ones jaw you can have as well.


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## freekygeeky

thank you.
we have had experenie with the bendy jaw, just awful, awful awful awful (unfortunaltly that one didnt survive) but anyway, good luck, and thank you for your permission, hopefully pics etc should help people... hopefully.


fuzzielady said:


> Yeah Gina help yourself. I have pics of the bend in the wee ones jaw you can have as well.


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## fuzzielady

ratboy said:


> It always amazes me just how dumb some people are. It reminds me of the James Bond thing where the bad guy tells James his plan on how to destroy or rule the world and is then surprised when James uses the information to stop them.


When she said it she was going to do it due to personal stuff. Not with regards the cresties. Will be a definite now though I think.


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## Athravan

If any multiple accounts are found the multiple will be banned, most people slip up and reveal multiple accounts fairly quickly, especially if they're not bright enough to keep the fact their creating one a secret in the first place!


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

keep us posted on the other one chick


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## adamntitch

Vase said:


> Thats a real shame but huge respect for taking them on and doing what you can. :notworthy:
> 
> Name and shame!


 
no need for op to name and shame click on link and you no who the seller was

sorry to hear about this hope the little one makes it and rip the little one that passed away xxx


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## fuzzielady

How could you not "notice" that, it is worse after she has eaten

Wobble









For those that don't know cresties this is what her jaw should be like
Bug


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## sparkle

thats so sad...


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## freekygeeky

trust me its worse you see it in real life, really awful.
r.i.p little one


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## sarasin

I read the for sale notice when you bought the 2 cresteds. After reading this thread, and seeing the pic of the geckos jaw, I am appalled that not only could someone let them get so bad, but to sell them is disgusting. I hope the other one pulls through for you.


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## fuzzielady

freekygeeky said:


> trust me its worse you see it in real life, really awful.
> r.i.p little one


yeah it is very distressing. Out of everything it is the wee ones jaw that angers me the most. The pic was the one that showed the bend the best but that's not it at its worst. It goes almost to a 90 degree angle


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## freekygeeky

i know how you feel, its awful awful awful awful.
is it ok still to use the pic? and xray if you get it?


fuzzielady said:


> yeah it is very distressing. Out of everything it is the wee ones jaw that angers me the most. The pic was the one that showed the bend the best but that's not it at its worst. It goes almost to a 90 degree angle


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## fuzzielady

freekygeeky said:


> i know how you feel, its awful awful awful awful.
> is it ok still to use the pic? and xray if you get it?


Yeah definitely. If this helps educate one person great


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## freekygeeky

thanky 
as i said i will bedoing my website, been takign more phtoos today for it, so i willbe updating soon 
when / if you getthe xray you can just pm me it etc thank you.
hopefully we can help others eh?





fuzzielady said:


> Yeah definitely. If this helps educate one person great


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## fuzzielady

sarasin said:


> I read the for sale notice when you bought the 2 cresteds. After reading this thread, and seeing the pic of the geckos jaw, I am appalled that not only could someone let them get so bad, but to sell them is disgusting. I hope the other one pulls through for you.


Thanks. 

If she is still here a week from now I will believe she could possibly make it. I was really optimistic until 5 minutes ago. She was scrambling across my hand quite happy and I though "a couple of days and I will need to put the top back on her exo" She started like spluttering and trying to bring something up. Thought maybe with her muscles being shot she had maybe managed to get her critical care down the wrong tube so held her at a slight slope to help her bring it up. She has just choked up a bit cork. Now she is all listless again. I know she has obviously used up all her energy bringing it up but I was on such a high


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## freekygeeky

impacted too?


fuzzielady said:


> Thanks.
> 
> If she is still here a week from now I will believe she could possibly make it. I was really optimistic until 5 minutes ago. She was scrambling across my hand quite happy and I though "a couple of days and I will need to put the top back on her exo" She started like spluttering and trying to bring something up. Thought maybe with her muscles being shot she had maybe managed to get her critical care down the wrong tube so held her at a slight slope to help her bring it up. She has just choked up a bit cork. Now she is all listless again. I know she has obviously used up all her energy bringing it up but I was on such a high


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## mask-of-sanity

what an awful thing to happen ....i have my fingers crossed for the remaining one and am disgusted that someone can let their reps get in such a state like that and to see them suffer


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## fuzzielady

freekygeeky said:


> thanky
> as i said i will bedoing my website, been takign more phtoos today for it, so i willbe updating soon
> when / if you getthe xray you can just pm me it etc thank you.
> hopefully we can help others eh?


That's what it's all about. 

I call today to see if they had been sent and got lost. They are going to get him to give me a quick call when he has emailed them. I think he will deffo send them as he was appalled at the state of them and went out his way to help me. Just a waiting game I am desperate to see them again to compare to healthy ones


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## fuzzielady

freekygeeky said:


> impacted too?


I hope not. I had a couple of bits of cork bark in beside her to try and keep her of the damp newspaper. I am hopeing it has been a bit of that that was loose and that it was the only bit. Needless to say she is now one some plastic leaves lying on the bottom.


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## freekygeeky

fuzzielady said:


> That's what it's all about.
> 
> I call today to see if they had been sent and got lost. They are going to get him to give me a quick call when he has emailed them. I think he will deffo send them as he was appalled at the state of them and went out his way to help me. Just a waiting game I am desperate to see them again to compare to healthy ones


 kk



fuzzielady said:


> I hope not. I had a couple of bits of cork bark in beside her to try and keep her of the damp newspaper. I am hopeing it has been a bit of that that was loose and that it was the only bit. Needless to say she is now one some plastic leaves lying on the bottom.


keep her safe and warm 
good luk, if you need to tlk etc pm


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## fuzzielady

mask-of-sanity said:


> what an awful thing to happen ....i have my fingers crossed for the remaining one and am disgusted that someone can let their reps get in such a state like that and to see them suffer


Thanks. I don't think she actually realised they were so ill, other than dropping a bit of weight. I think it was just pure neglect rather than deliberate cruelty. I would rather think that though than think she actually hand fed etc, like she said, saw her jaw and just didn't care. Not that either is acceptable.


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## fuzzielady

freekygeeky said:


> kk
> 
> 
> 
> keep her safe and warm
> good luk, if you need to tlk etc pm


 
Thanks


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

pmed you H x


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## fuzzielady

replied :bash:


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## sparkle

oh no helena..


On a positive note... LAwrie the actual vet himself is fabulous...

I only ever had one upset as that vets and that was simply becuase I was seen by vet that had no herp qualifications... I realised after that to always ask for Mr Lawrie himself...

if im going now I ask for Alistair Lawrie personally as he is fabulous, kind and very caring...

Im on msn and in Pm if you need me xxxxx


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

*update*

just to update people the other crestie was very ill overnight, helena was up all night with it to try and get it through the night, its made it through the night and has been admitted to the vets and is now on a drip, fingers crossed guys xxx


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## sparkle

I really hope this little one pulls through...

its devestating...


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## biohazard156

Helena, 

I am so sorry this has happened to you. If I can be of any help to you then please let me know.

It is a shocking disgrace that these animals were sold in the first place, but they are in good hands with you. I have everything crossed for this little one. 

I would demand my money back for them, it is unacceptable that they were sold in this condition and therefore it is only right you shouldnt have to pay for them and all their medical care.

Anna


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## Vase

adamntitch said:


> no need for op to name and shame click on link and you no who the seller was
> 
> sorry to hear about this hope the little one makes it and rip the little one that passed away xxx


The link got put in after I'd posted mate : victory:

Hope she's made it through the night at the vets. I'm sure they're doing all they can.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

unfortunately the little one had to be euthanased this afternoon after id posted. dont know anymore details but im sure helena will fill you in when she is on,

R.I.P my little babies, ill never forgive myself for not taking you when i left :*( but at least your last few days were ones of some comfort and good care, i love you guys xxxxx


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## sparkle

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> unfortunately the little one had to be euthanased this afternoon after id posted. dont know anymore details but im sure helena will fill you in when she is on,
> 
> R.I.P my little babies, ill never forgive myself for not taking you when i left :*( xxxxx


 
OH NO....


R.I.P


IM so so sorry...

will speak to you later cat and of course helena

definately get the x-rays up from the first little one.... if their needless deaths at least can educate people theres at least something that can be taken from this horrific story..


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## fuzzielady

Will post later. Thanks everyone for your support


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## diamondlil

RIP Little cresties. Such a sad story, at least they ended up with someone who cared enough to try to help them. I hope the person who let them get so ill at least suffers guilt over it.


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## Mason

I dont think it was neglect. The cresties obviously developed severe MDB on the car journey from the seller to the buyer. Happens all the time.

@ the OP could you scan/post the x-rays, that will help to illustrate to people ( the seller included!) how bad they were.


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## quizicalkat

oh my god - I am really sorry!


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## sarah1207

oh i am so sorry


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## Lynne

Mason said:


> I dont think it was neglect. The cresties obviously developed severe MDB on the car journey from the seller to the buyer. Happens all the time.
> 
> @ the OP could you scan/post the x-rays, that will help to illustrate to people ( the seller included!) how bad they were.


i have been following this thread with disgust. i dunno much about lizards as my daughter keeps them and i keep snakes. but i didnt think mbd came on THAT quick, i thought it came on over months.
well done for taking care of them fuzzielady. at least thier needs were met in last hours.


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## fuzzielady

Mason said:


> I dont think it was neglect. The cresties obviously developed severe MDB on the car journey from the seller to the buyer. Happens all the time.
> 
> @ the OP could you scan/post the x-rays, that will help to illustrate to people ( the seller included!) how bad they were.


 
Thanks I needed that.

Vet phoned today to say he had emailed me the xrays. I didn't get them so have phoned and they are going to get him to send them again. As soon as I get them I will post them on here.


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## fuzzielady

Wobble within 10 minutes went from looking like she could make it to totally crashing. I had just fed her her critical care and she even pood on me. Then 10 minutes later she looked like she was choking and she did bring up what I thought was a bit cork bark. I later looked at it again after getting her settled a bit and it was a bit eco earth. She had been on newspaper since Sunday after I noticed she had a mouthful due to, I though, not being able to shut her mouth. Vet had another theory but anyway. I spent the whole night trying to get advice on how to keep her going until morning. Instinct must have set in as she was still here when the vets opened. They admitted her and put her on a drip but she continued to crash and even after a couple of hours was still getting worse we decided it was better for her to let her go.


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## Master_Of_Darkness

fuzzielady said:


> Wobble within 10 minutes went from looking like she could make it to totally crashing. I had just fed her her critical care and she even pood on me. Then 10 minutes later she looked like she was choking and she did bring up what I thought was a bit cork bark. I later looked at it again after getting her settled a bit and it was a bit eco earth. She had been on newspaper since Sunday after I noticed she had a mouthful due to, I though, not being able to shut her mouth. Vet had another theory but anyway. I spent the whole night trying to get advice on how to keep her going until morning. Instinct must have set in as she was still here when the vets opened. They admitted her and put her on a drip but she continued to crash and even after a couple of hours was still getting worse we decided it was better for her to let her go.


im so sorry. i really am.
r.i.p little ones.
thats awful, it really is, but in the last few hours, he and she both had a great home, someone who cared an amazing amount, 
alot of people woulndt of bothered, you cared you bothered you tried to do some thing, well done you.
again sorry for your loss.
i hope ths doesnt put you of cresties. they are brilliant animals, brilliant.

pm me if you need to.


Gina


(the pic and xray will be added tommorrow to my site.)


EDIT - By the way this is Freekygeeky on my OH's account, by accident!!


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## littlejay

I just want to add how very sorry and angry I feel about this,I know Cat and can imagine how she's feeling. I dont know the OP but my heart goes out to her it really does.Sheer cruelty or neglect amounts to the same thing -these poor animals have suffered where there was simply NO NEED for them to do so, I looked at the pics of them when they were for sale but couldnt see their heads as they were hidden by foilage. What speaks volumes is that as soon as Cat & Ditta saw them they knew the problem, so how the bloody hell cant the person who has had them in their "care" not realise it.A full refund should be given of course and a major part of the vets fees too, but above all the seller should come right out and admit she knew they were sick, very sick and should . for Gods sake, admit she IS responsible and should also pledge in public that she will never have another Rep placed in her care.
littlejay


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## sarasin

I am so sorry to here that the little one didn't make it, you tried everthing humanly possible. Unfortunately this wasn't enough in this case, the cresteds were obviously too far gone to put right. I know money is probably the last thing on your mind at the moment, but I do believe you should be given a full refund from seller. My best wishes to you, take care.


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## sparkle

the seller has stated that since the buyer has the tank and equipment there will be no further refund

and that she is angry that she was named on the forum...


its gutting...

I hope this thread can truly highlight issues with mbd... that its not always easy to bring a lizard back from and can result in death


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## groovy chick

Oh man i really feel for you  But well done on giving them a fighting chance. The seller should be digusted with herself folk like her make me sick :censor:


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## DeanThorpe

in fairness though doesnt it seem that it was the probably swallowing of substrate that actually led to the death of the second crestie?


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## Lynne

DeanThorpe said:


> in fairness though doesnt it seem that it was the probably swallowing of substrate that actually led to the death of the second crestie?


 
no it doesnt.


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## Ally

DeanThorpe said:


> in fairness though doesnt it seem that it was the probably swallowing of substrate that actually led to the death of the second crestie?


And bones so soft they didn't show up on x-ray had nothing to do with it?


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## Molly75

Aww so sorry to hear of your losses very sad  I would not normally add to threads but there seems to be a lot of Ill reptiles being banded about at the mo  

I cannot believe how many people do not notice a reptile is ill?? running the disabled reps sanctuary i've had a lot of sick cresties come through and pulled many MBD back from the brink with wired jaws etc but even with 300 reps and around 40 being cresties I could not say i would ever sell a rep and not know its condition.

I've had 2 snakes i paid a lot of money for arrive in the last few weeks I got 2 skinny snakes which are loaded with coccida how because i screened them 5 times sad thing is the seller never mentioned a word and they were bought unseen but truth is I would have took them anyway after treatment both are now doing well but if i'd had to use a vet thats 2 very stressed reps and a hefty bill. 

p xx


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## sparkle

DeanThorpe said:


> in fairness though doesnt it seem that it was the probably swallowing of substrate that actually led to the death of the second crestie?


EH???

r u even serious..

the bones were SO bad they didnt show on the x-rays the vet said hes never seen MBD so bad...

and the swallowing of substrate was only QUESTIONED... not even proven... helena thought it might be impaction but when i explained that MBD can cause impaction due to inability to use the bowel kidneys liver etc that made sense then... she had thought maybe it had swallowed substrate which is why it was struggling to poo... she said it was shaking and its legs were all over the place when trying to pass faeces... so at first she thought substrate imapction.. but it was the horrific MBD that caused this poor cresties problems witheven the simplest of animal actions..... waste removal..

MBd causes issues in beardies with faecal waste removal too.. they cant use their bowels properly

these cresties felt SOFT actually squisjy as if the bones had dissolveed. and guess what they had..... the buyer has two healthy cresties so she knows what they should be like and she described them as feeling wrong

the mouths and jaws on both were hanging open and the tongue lolling out. ive been on the phone to helena for hours this evening and trust me this was MBD negelct on BOTH cresties dean...

the x-rays are being emailed to helena... so we shall see


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

molly i text you regardin this a few days ago, didnt you get it hun? might have wrong number?


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## Molly75

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> molly i text you regardin this a few days ago, didnt you get it hun? might have wrong number?


 No Hun  will pm you now 
p xx


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## fuzzielady

Master_Of_Darkness said:


> im so sorry. i really am.
> r.i.p little ones.
> thats awful, it really is, but in the last few hours, he and she both had a great home, someone who cared an amazing amount,
> alot of people woulndt of bothered, you cared you bothered you tried to do some thing, well done you.
> again sorry for your loss.
> i hope ths doesnt put you of cresties. they are brilliant animals, brilliant.
> 
> pm me if you need to.
> 
> 
> Gina
> 
> 
> (the pic and xray will be added tommorrow to my site.)
> 
> 
> EDIT - By the way this is Freekygeeky on my OH's account, by accident!!


 
Thanks Gina you confused me a bit there


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## freekygeeky

i confuse my self all the time!!! lol


fuzzielady said:


> Thanks Gina you confused me a bit there


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## fuzzielady

Just received the xrays


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## freekygeeky

fuzzielady said:


> Just received the xrays












and what they should look like, not mine..

sorry for the sizE!!!!


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## Emmaj

fuzzielady said:


> Just received the xrays


 
thats so sad i have been following this thread an not said anything till now 

but you can even see the swelling of the joints on the xrays 

so sorry for you and poor lil guys 

this really did bring a tear to my eye reading how you lost the one you worked so hard on too 

so so sorry


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## fuzzielady

I think I have resized it for you


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## freekygeeky

thank you !!

p.s this is a VERY chubby gecko, teh white bits in the head (for people that dont know) are the calcium sacs, where they store their calcium.



fuzzielady said:


> I think I have resized it for you


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## Emmaj

its so sickening to see the difference in them xrays 

poor babies


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## fuzzielady

I contacted the seller yesterday to tell her I had lost the other one too. She is extremely angry that I have put it on here. After hanging up on me she texted me to ask for the vets name, address and phone number that I took them too. I told her ok but she wasn't getting them until I had received the xrays. Thing is do I give her them???? I then also said do you want the receipts too. She said yes. Not sure why she wants them but do I give her them??


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## sparkle

no the receipts are yours ...

unless shes willing to refund you she doesnt need them

as for the vets details what is it she wants to know.. that he definately said it didnt happen within a 4 hour journey from manchester to fife in scotland..

i would say from those x rays thats obvious..

I would warn the vets she might call... you have nothing to hide so im not sure what she can gain by calling them except to be told she negelcted them


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## Lynne

send her photocopies, but not the actual receipts.


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## Victictay

it is horrible what that lady let happen to the geckos some one should get intouch with the rspca and send them to her address incase there are anymore neglected pets i think they will prob find more by the sound of things people like that are the pits and don't deserve pets .im so sorry about what has happend to u and the poor cresties.


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## amazoncat

I'm very sorry to hear about this. The x-rays are shocking, more for the obvious swelling in the joints than the 'invisible' bones as it does sometimes happen that with very small animals x-rays pass through leaving less contrast than you might normally expect to see just because the bones are too small to absorb the radiation. It sounds like the bones were extremely soft given Sparkle's description of them as 'squishy'

It seems like a good idea to give her the vet's number - she's only going to phone up and be told it all happened a long time before you got them. It is important that you contact the vet first and give your permission for this information to be passed on - just explain the situation to them if you haven't already. Copies of the receipts should be passed on if she is prepared to pay but don't send the originals and feel free to black out any personal information (account numbers, contact details etc.) you don't wish to be passed on.

I'm very sorry for everything you and the little ones went through, well done for all you did and tried to do. Rest in peace


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## fuzzielady

amazoncat said:


> I'm very sorry to hear about this. The x-rays are shocking, more for the obvious swelling in the joints than the 'invisible' bones as it does sometimes happen that with very small animals x-rays pass through leaving less contrast than you might normally expect to see just because the bones are too small to absorb the radiation. It sounds like the bones were extremely soft given Sparkle's description of them as 'squishy'
> 
> It seems like a good idea to give her the vet's number - she's only going to phone up and be told it all happened a long time before you got them. It is important that you contact the vet first and give your permission for this information to be passed on - just explain the situation to them if you haven't already. Copies of the receipts should be passed on if she is prepared to pay but don't send the originals and feel free to black out any personal information (account numbers, contact details etc.) you don't wish to be passed on.
> 
> I'm very sorry for everything you and the little ones went through, well done for all you did and tried to do. Rest in peace


Having a healthy xray, of a crested gecko, to compare to makes all the difference though. Thanks Gina for putting it up. I was shocked when I saw the xrays while still at the vets. I was even more shocked when I found another xray on line of another crestie with MBD. It seemed like a healthy xray compared to the ones of they poor wee guys. 

I have contacted the vet and given permission for them to speak to her "if" she calls. I have given her vets details and asked if she wants the receipts to repay. If she does them I will give her copies if not then she doesn't need them.

I lost them in the end but they probably had more caring in the 2 and 5 days I had them than they had while in her sole care. If she repays the money I have laid out, it will be because she has chosen to do the right thing. Not because I have forced her too do it.


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## buddy

Omg i have just read every page of this Helena i am soo soo sorry i have been in tears since page 2.

it is so horrible that these poor guys have been left suffering for prob 6mths and you got them and prob cared more for them in that short time than this person who likes to call herself a keeper 

it really is disgusting what people would do to get rid of a problem and taking £180 for them aswell awful

i am glad you names and shamed and she should not be angry you are the one out of pocket right now as well as growing a bond she should be totally ashamed of herself 

i really hope the makeit babe again i am so sorry for your loss 

RIP little ones you are released from pain now.

PS well done Helena on what you did do for them unfortunatly there was nothing more you could do you done everything in your power. unlike previous owner again 

i hope she reads this and if she is then you should not be allowed to keep reps if you could not notice those problems complete neglect


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## fuzzielady

Thanks Lisa

Not sure if she has been back on but she has seen the thread.


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## celsbigbeard

I feel it is now the time to voice me own oppinions on this situation, not to justify myself.

As stated i genuinely thought that these reptiles were in good health when sold, if this truely isnt the case then i am sorry this has happened, i will never knowingly sell sick pets.

Also as stated by the op, reptile taxi text to say they thought something was wrong as it seemed the bigger one had swollen front legs and no mention of possible mbd, at that point i contacted the buyer immediately to let them know of this.

As i have stated all along and continue to do so now i thought that the only problem was that one was a bit skinny, the buyer had every oppoprtunity to pull out with no bad feelings.

Not that this is important but i stated in my ad that it was pick up only (surely if i knew they were ill why would i insist on this?) but i went against what i always do as the buyer was the most interested person out of all the other enquiries, i prefer pick up only so that the buyer has every chance to say if they dont want to buy.

If reptile taxi are adament they knew something was wrong then why deliver it in the first place? Why not bring it back and show me what they meant?

To recieve a call on sunday morning to say the buyer thought that there may be something wrong but was happy with them and not even mention as stated by the buyer that one of the reps arrived with it's mouth gaping, then to get a call asking for a refund a few hours later is strange, the buyer had every right and opportunity to pull out if they weren't happy with the sale but didn't. If i ever recieved a sick pet then i would refuse it and risk losing my delivery charge than possibably lose the money i had paid for them then lose the reps and vets fee's.

The buyer was offered a full refund if they could get the reptiles & equipment back to me, then without proof that the rep's were in fact ill i have given a refund.

Yes i did speak to sparkle regarding the rep's health and only to them. After this convo' i came to the conclusion after seeing both rep's calci-sacs, hand feed and drink water, i was being paranoid.

I have hand fed & watered them in the weeks upto them leaving and NEVER has either rep's jaw ended up like that otherwise 1/ i would not have adverstised, 2/ i would have withdrawn the sale altogether and 3/ i would have got them to the vets.

One main question i will ask is how can you get a drip into something so small? Most rep vets will not attempt to put a drip into something with such small veins.

The buyer also admitted to me that the vet stated that the rep's would have lived longer had they stayed here.

I totally understand peoples concerns but IAM an animal lover and WILL NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES INTENTIONALLY let ANY ANIMAL come to any harm what so ever.

I asked for proof that the rep's had received treatment as it's the buyers only word and there has been no proof that these have actually died.

If all this is true i would say to people please fully research before you get a new rep as i thought that feeding ghd, supplimenting crix plus watering with preboiled and cooled water twice daily and keeping the temps right was correct but you never know what could happen,

thx,
cel


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## sparkle

Cel...

One point..


you have missed out so MUCH to the story its unreal


cat called you on the saturday night to ask if she could return them,
you said no,
I overheard the phonecall ... as i was on phone to ditta... so do not even try to place the blame with rep taxi... you told cat there was ZERO wrong with them and you refused to have her come round.. 
it was at that point that Helena made the decision to take them on even if they had MBD.. but she had NO CLUE it was that bad...
pointing out issues and worries you had about the cresties to various other forumites.. then saying you didnt REALLY believe what you were saying and that it was paranoia is such a bad excuse im sorry but you cant expect people to believe that...

when helena called you about it your brother was screaming and swearing in the background hurling obcenities and saying
ITS NOT URE PROBLEM NOW TELL HER TO ...... OFF
and you hung up
You told helena you hadnt noticed a thing..
then you told her youd hand fed and they were 100% ok..
handfeeding these little guys would have shown that they werent ok.. 
As for helena refusing them on delivery.. then what... you refused to take them back so were rep taxi to then take them to a vet and house them..

youre excuses are ridiculous here...
you refused the quote to RETURN them.. you know you did... you said it wasnt worth the money and youd refund half the buying price...
helena said she would return them rep taxi gave you a quote and u said.;. it will be cheaper to refund half the money than to get them back..

now if you were that caring youd have paid whatever it took to get them back..



NOw as for surving longer at your house COME ON..
surviving longer would have meant MORE pain.. MORE suffering.. and to be frank thank god they are Resting in peace now...
who would want them to suffer in the agony they must have been in any longer.. helena tried to fix this and by trying to fix it it meant they were treated to TRY to save them.. they may have stayed with you and rotted a few weeks more but i cant see the positive in them surviving where they were for a few more weeks... 
theres plenty more to this... but its not fair to coment on here as it would only start a slanging match and were asked on rfuk NOT to show MSN convos and emails..



anyway im sure rep taxi ( who youre almost trying to blame) and helena who you are also trying to blame somewhat wil have their say..
as for my part in it..
I gave as much advice as I could...
I told cat to call you .. she was so worried youd tell her to get lost she asked me to call you but i didnt.. as i was concerned it would cause more issues..
cel.. this was caused by neglect.. now that might have been non intentional but when given the opportunity to have them back TWICE you refused... if you had checked these cresties.. handled them and hand fed like you said anyone would have noticed their problems...

... and i think you played down their issues immensly to helena.. she has shown me what u said abut their issues.. and it was mild mbd... 



the x-rays are truly shocking.. if it were ONE crestie we could maybe put it down to a genetic defect but both were the same !!!
it doesnt take a genius to see youre husbandry was wrong and the way you have dealt with this was unfair and still seems full of denial..
pls learn from this
Ive made mistakes.. but ive learned..
i dont look to blame others..


do not forget
rep taxi are not there to decide if an animal is FIT.. they are a courrier.. that is IT!!!


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## fuzzielady

There are a couple of reasons I didn't refuse them as well you know as I told you. 
1. Cat and Ditta had paid for them at your end and I wouldn't have put them in the position of trying to get money back from you.
2. I didn't realise how bad they were until I realised they couldn't climb and saw the wee one couldn't close it's jaw after being hand fed. This was when I called to ask for £90 back as they were obviously needing vet treatment and a complete new setup.
3. You admitted they were better of here as you didn't know much about them and hadn't even realised they were ill.

Not that this is important but i stated in my ad that it was pick up only (surely if i knew they were ill why would i insist on this?) but i went against what i always do as the buyer was the most interested person out of all the other enquiries, i prefer pick up only so that the buyer has every chance to say if they dont want to buy.

You told me yourself I had offered you the most money. Not that that's relevant either. Anyway I never said you knew when you sold them they were ill. I have even told you that I believe that you didn't know.


To recieve a call on sunday morning to say the buyer thought that there may be something wrong but was happy with them and not even mention as stated by the buyer that one of the reps arrived with it's mouth gaping,

I said already I didn't think anything of it until I hand fed later. Not that it's relevant but they didn't even get to me till late afternoon. Pictures say it all or are you saying that the pic is of a different gecko. Easy to compare to your pic. When she was eating the muscle pulled her jaw down and with it being soft their wasn't much resistance, she couldn't close her mouth properly until the muscle had relaxed again.


If i ever recieved a sick pet then i would refuse it and risk losing my delivery charge than possibably lose the money i had paid for them then lose the reps and vets fee's.

Some of us care more about the reps than the money. I would have lost £50 delivery not a huge amount. By keeping them they cost me the £90 you kept, £50 delivery, £90 setup UVB and starter for UVB, £50 fuel vet is 55 miles away, I was at vets Monday and twice on Thursday. Once for her being admitted and again to pick her body up. £55 vet fees including euthanasia for 1 (didn't charge for xrays or admitting the wee one for 2 hours on the Thursday) something else but can't think what. I'm £335 down, you're £90 up.

I have hand fed & watered them in the weeks upto them leaving

You originally told me you "never" handled them as you thought they were too delicate. It was only after I mentioned the wee ones jaw that you said you had hand fed them the week before and that it was supposedly fine then.

One main question i will ask is how can you get a drip into something so small? Most rep vets will not attempt to put a drip into something with such small veins.


According to vet nurse she put a drip straight into it's stomach. Why didn't you ask my vet or did you not call him.


The buyer also admitted to me that the vet stated that the rep's would have lived longer had they stayed here.

The stress of the journey, new home, vets trip etc. Why didn't you ask my vet that also.


I asked for proof that the rep's had received treatment as it's the buyers only word and there has been no proof that these have actually died.


I emailed you my vets details on the 18th July but hadn't put a subject in and thought if you had a spam filter it may have binned it. I sent it again with a subject on Tuesday. Would you like me to post the emails on here to prove this. My rep vet is waiting for your call. You could even call my normal vet if you like as they are holding them for me waiting until I decide if I am going to bury them or get vet to cremate (sp?) them and get their ashes back.

My rep vets details: My rep vet is called Alistair Lawrie he has permission to discuss the geckos as I already told you. I also asked, in the email, do you want the receipts to repay me or was it because I asked if you wanted them? Maybe you could answer me here since you didn't reply to my emails.

The Lawrie Veterinary Practice
( Maguire Lawrie & Lawrie )
25 Griffiths St
Falkirk
Stirlingshire
FK1 5QY 
01324 624361

It wasn't sparkle you spoke to about the geckos, don't have a clue why you would say it was, it was Hayley, would you like me to prove that too.

If all this is true i would say to people please fully research before you get a new rep as i thought that feeding ghd, supplimenting crix plus watering with preboiled and cooled water twice daily and keeping the temps right was correct but you never know what could happen,

That would be the huge adult crickets with wings that they couldn't have ate even if they were healthy.



A few people have seen the geckos that are on RFUK. If you like I could involve them in this. I am trying not to make this personal but you are making that extremely hard. Why did you only mention returning them to you after I asked for half my money back. Even after you admitted something could be wrong you wanted me to pay another £230 to return them to you or hold them without vet treatment until rep taxi was doing their next run in scotland. I have ALL the texts you sent so can prove everything.


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## Maureen Collinson

Hi fuzzielady. 

Another awful case of reptiles being badly neglected. :bash:  I just can't figure how this happens so often, when members are on forums such as this?????????

I'm sorry you have had to take the blunt of watching those poor creatures suffering till their death, but on behalf of them, thank you for caring so much for them. 'HUG'. This is just to sad, and the previous owner beggars belief. :censor: Even if they unintentionally allowed those two geckos to get into that state, you would think now there would be signs of remorse on here, but no, only concerned about how they are being perceived.  Says it all about them. 

I have noticed fuzzielady that you have said that the Vet is still holding onto the geckos until you can make your mind up which way to go with them. I am pleased to hear that as I believe you have a strong case, and could take things further if they don't see fit to at least going halves with you. In order for this to happen you will need photos of both geckos, on both sides of their bodies so that their individual body markings can be matched with the ones the last owner sent to you, that were placed on here also. This evidence, along with the previous owners statement on the forum of how healthy they were, and the x-rays that can prove that the geckos have been suffering for a good 6 months, could in fact see you getting all of your money back and maybe some compensation, and the previous owner may be prosecuted for neglect or stopped from keeping reptiles. You just need the photos. There is then plenty here on the forum. Any further items such as convo's elsewhere, emails, etc, could seal it.

Don't forget that you have lots of witnesses on your side too. 

To the previous owner, I don't wish to get into a conversation with you. It has nothing to do with whether or not you knew the cresties were ill. I don't care for the way you have responded here, and your lack of care that the cresties are dead. 

Mo


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## Andy b 1

that is so horrible, original poster, i really feel for you  its hard enough losing any pet let alone one that you have just got after bieng told its healthy and them both turning out as unhealthy as really they could be. the xrays are just shocking. the person who sold them to you should be investigated for SEVERE neglect, how can she/he have the cheek to say that they are upset about bieng named on the forum when they treat the animals like that.

absoloutly shocking and vile and i cant imagine what you are going through right now.

my condolences for the cresties


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## fuzzielady

Thanks Mo and Andy

When it was obvious there was something wrong the seller was full of remorse, was even in tears and kept apologising. That was until I mentioned money. When I said I wanting £90 back she agreed, on the phone, then sent me a couple of texts saying I was to return them and she would refund me £180 as she had her reputation on the forums to think off. Also saying that as far as she was concerned they were fine when they left her so I was to pay to get them back to her. Funny how being asked to part with money caused a complete personality change.

I got her to agree to pay half the transport but she wanted me to hold onto them for a couple of weeks. That way rep taxi would maybe be on a Scotland run so it would be cheaper, I refused to hold them that long as they needed to see a vet ASAP.


Once I lost the second one I phoned to tell her, by that time she had seen this thread. I got a load of foul language because I had put it on here. Not once, not even in the beginning, has she said "OMG they poor geckos" It has all been about how she didn't know, her reputation and her not wanting to part with money.


Mo:
Do you have any idea how I would go about it?? I could get pics, vet reports from rep vet regards geckos and mine regards my attitude towards my animals care no problem. Who would I contact?? Thing is if I go down that road she would also have costs as well.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! 

first of all when ditta picked them up i was in the car, you were not allowing me to come out the car to pick them up myself. When i got home and was very concerned i rung you up and had a lengthy conversation as well as several arguements with you voicing my concerns! i DID tell you i thought they had MBD! i DID tell you they couldnt stick to the glass to which you told me that you had just peeled them off the glass to get them in the tubs, You told me on the phone that you had had a lengthy conversation with helena explaining about the geckos and said helena had said she had everything she needed for them and was happy. You also told me it wasnt my business cos it was between you and the buyer. And as we are just the middle men realisitically it is, though this was a personal matter to me cos i never wanted to leave them cresties with you when i left, but you wanted them and i trusted your care. I gave you some of the food im using at the moment, and mine are fine and healthy so how have your 2 come to such a unfortunate demise when mine are in good condition?? you also said to helena im sure that you didnt know that crickets should be lots smaller than the space between the cresties eyes.....yet when we bought tem crestie books it was you who read them from time to time so how you couldnt have picked up a little information about them i dont know. Especially as i always used to go on about the fact that cresties cannot masticate as wel as other reptiles. When alls said and done its the cresties which were the main concern and even a complete amateur would have noticed there wasnt something quite right. Now correct me if im wrong, and i will go check to make sure im not but on a thread one of your posts said that you had been stoppin out for 4 nights so how the hell are your animals gettin the care they need? i just hope the leos i left in your care arent anythin like these cresties. 

Tryin to place the blame on the reptile taxi isnt the way forward, ESPECIALLY as i called you prior to delivery about their health and you refused to acknowledge there was anything wrong. owning up, admittin responsibility and helping helena out is what you shoudld be doing, and maybe people might show you a little bit of respect at least for doing that. 

i really didnt want to get too involved in this cos i have personal issues with this and i dont wanna blur other peoples visions with my feelings and our past but its a disgrace that a) all this happened, and b) you wont even acknowledge your resposibility!!! this could have been dealt with privately off the forum but you refused to comply with reasonable requests from the buyer. And to expect helena to pay for the return of them is ridiculous when it was obvious they arrived in an apaulin condition- a journey they could have avoided if you had listened on saturday night, though i am actually glad they dd go to helena cos i dont think they would hav got the attention they needed from a personal and financial prospective had they been returned. 

One more thing- we were continuing our journey up scotland to aberdeen but yet we were well back into england by the time you decided you wanted them returned, which is a considerable number of hours! had you decided earlier, a return may have been possible though like i said before,im glad they stayed where they were. 

I have done nothing but apologise to helena and have searched for reasons to put some of the blame onto me, god knows why cos they were fine when we split up and mine continue to be healthy. 

i think youve taken so long t reply cos youve been tryna devise what to say! you need to realise that this didnt happen overnight or on the journey and shoulder some blame. i wish you all the best cel ad wouldnt wish trouble and heart ache on you at all despite our past, but you need to take responsibility for your actions and do the right thing. stop shifting the blame!! the fact that youve taken so long to reply and what you have actually posted hasnt made you look any better!!

also sparkle wasnt the only person on here that you spoke to with regards your previous concerns about the geckos 

PS, i have a photo on my phone of the geckos leg taken on the saturday night of collection

also, take the crested geckos off your sig cos not only are they no longer yours they are no longer anyones cos they came to such a horrible end and were so short lived!!


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## buddy

omfg I am so glad i do not live in Wigan or i would be on your doorstep right now and reporting you for animal cruelty for whatever other reptiles you have 

why cant you just wave the white flag and admitt you are responsible for all this helena did not put them in this state within hours and reptile taxi Certainly did not do this 

this is a problem which went further back than that and if you did not notice them having problems then that is really bad you obviously dont pay enough attension to your reptiles 

helena and ditta all noticed str8 away why couldnt you 

or then again apparently you did know there were problems so whatever way it is 

people would get off your back if you just admitt to being wrong and give helena her money back as she is the one out of pocket and there you are lapping up £90 of her money and she has nothing to show for it but the trouble she went to try and save those little ones.

you do not even seem upset they have passed away i would be bolling my eyes out they were yours for long enough 

I DONT GET IT I REALLY DONT !!!!!


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## sparkle

Cel...

Im sorry that you didnt think before you posted.. what you wrote only make this look worse...



I too have made crap mistakes..

As you may know I once fed a perfectly healthy snake in a tub immediately after a new snake.. therefore i operated no quarentine..

the new snake was sick... i passed it to the long term snake..

my fault.. and yes i got flamed to heck for it.. but boy did i learn the hard way....

the snakes went into critical care admition at a rep vets... and had numerous tests done and as for ME .. wellll

i personally tightened up my hygiene and quarentine within an inch of my life..

I realised the terrible mistake id made even though it was not intentional but extremely badly thought out and very careless... i was stil repsonsible for what may have been 2 animals deaths..

lcukily with long term medication and care they both pulled through..

but i was flamed on rfuk yes.. i realised i was in the wrong for that particular incident..

some people deny deny deny... they wont admit they dont always wash hands.. they wont admit they sometimes use same feeding tongs for snake to snake.. they wont admit passing snakes round to other herpers visiting their homes with no handwash..

ADMITION is the only way to change.. be responsible... say sorry.. and realise whats gone wrong...

weather the storm.. stick to better p[rocedures and more careful animal care then maybe just maybe other reptile keepers will see you arent a careless idiot...like i was seen as..

I did everything i could to make changes and tighten everything up;... I learned the hard way.. and took the crap for it.. im still here on rfuk.. and maybe theres some who wil always think badly of me.. but you know what thats fine.. I know how careful and anal i am about my animals now..

F10, bleach solution, hand sanitisers in every room and an agreement that i can quarentine if needs be not just in a different room but in a seperate house now..


your situation is different these animals suffered from either non intenitonal neglect or lack of due care caused by some other issue seperate from them...

who knows what it is exactly.. but please if you want any slight tiny bit of slack on here show some remorse ..

to question whether they are dead or not is VERY heartless and cruel also...



dont expect anyone to have any feelings of sympathy for you at all... unless you can appologise and take the blame here...

you have shown yourself to be incapable of taking responsibility... so it looks as though you have a change of heart... noones going to be telling you how sorry they are for you anytime soon..


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

fuzzielady said:


> Thanks Mo and Andy
> 
> When it was obvious there was something wrong the seller was full of remorse, was even in tears and kept apologising. That was until I mentioned money. When I said I wanting £90 back she agreed, on the phone, then sent me a couple of texts saying I was to return them and she would refund me £180 as she had her reputation on the forums to think off. Also saying that as far as she was concerned they were fine when they left her so I was to pay to get them back to her. Funny how being asked to part with money caused a complete personality change.
> 
> I got her to agree to pay half the transport but she wanted me to hold onto them for a couple of weeks. That way rep taxi would maybe be on a Scotland run so it would be cheaper, I refused to hold them that long as they needed to see a vet ASAP.
> 
> 
> Once I lost the second one I phoned to tell her, by that time she had seen this thread. I got a load of foul language because I had put it on here. Not once, not even in the beginning, has she said "OMG they poor geckos" It has all been about how she didn't know, her reputation and her not wanting to part with money.
> 
> 
> Mo:
> Do you have any idea how I would go about it?? I could get pics, vet reports from rep vet regards geckos and mine regards my attitude towards my animals care no problem. Who would I contact?? Thing is if I go down that road she would also have costs as well.


you also forgot to mention helena, that cel wasnt willing to refund the £90 because of "all that equipment" you've got- an exo, a mat and stat and some bark........ Also in another text it said " it would be in *MY* best interest to have the cresties back" not in the cresties best interest


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## fuzzielady

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> you also forgot to mention helena, that cel wasnt willing to refund the £90 because of "all that equipment" you've got- an exo, a mat and stat and some bark........ Also in another text it said " it would be in *MY* best interest to have the cresties back" not in the cresties best interest


I mentioned the other £90 and equipment in a previous post. There's a lot in her texts I have not revealed yet. I am absolutely gutted by her allegations in her post so much so that:

1. I contacted rep vets and surprise surprise she hasn't contacted them.
2. Asked if they could get Alistair (rep vet) to write me out a report regarding the cresties. He isn't in until Friday but don't expect him to have a problem doing this.
3. Contacted RSPCA for advice, they say their is more then enough to open a full investigation regarding the cresties and her other animals. They don't even forsee a problem with me being in Scotland and her being in England.

*Cel How dare you imply they received no vet treatment and that I lied about them being dead.*


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## zirliz

Those poor reptiles some people make me sick :censor:


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx

fuzzielady said:


> I mentioned the other £90 and equipment in a previous post. There's a lot in her texts I have not revealed yet. I am absolutely gutted by her allegations in her post so much so that:
> 
> 1. I contacted rep vets and surprise surprise she hasn't contacted them.
> 2. Asked if they could get Alistair (rep vet) to write me out a report regarding the cresties. He isn't in until Friday but don't expect him to have a problem doing this.
> 3. Contacted RSPCA for advice, they say their is more then enough to open a full investigation regarding the cresties and her other animals. They don't even forsee a problem with me being in Scotland and her being in England.
> 
> *Cel How dare you imply they received no vet treatment and that I lied about them being dead.*


 
apologies helena, im that mad that i cant remember everything thats been posted.


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## amber_gekko

fuzzielady said:


> 3. Contacted RSPCA for advice, they say their is more then enough to open a full investigation regarding the cresties and her other animals. They don't even forsee a problem with me being in Scotland and her being in England.


You should report them, if the seller didn't realise that the cresties were at deaths door then who knows about their other reps.

The way i see it is that if the seller has nothing to hide and keeps her / his reptiles properley then they have nothing to fear from an RSPCA investigation and if they are saying you did nothing and its all a lie then the RSPCA will find this out.

As an outsider reading this you could argue that the seller knew something was wrong hence the sale (before i get grief im not saying they did!)
Ive had this done to me, i bought a blizzard leopard gecko a few years ago, the guy offered to deliver, when it arrived it was cold so wasn't moving much and i thought nothing of it, next day it was dead - i text him he laughed he knew it was ill - i didn't know where he lived what could i do!

Im so sorry for what you've had to go through


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## fuzzielady

I would like to believe she didn't know but either way she has lied.

She either didn't know "or" she hand fed them. Both statements can't be true.


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## wacky69

i have just read this and i am disgusted im sorry she must have known there was something wrong with these its as plain as day (i'll prob get flamed for this but i dont care) for her to keep shifting the blame from helena to ditta and Cat it kinda proves she knows she is the one to blame. kinda seems to me she is blaming rep taxi cos of personal issues and nothing to do with anything that they have done which we all know they havent done anything. she needs to put her hands up and say my bad a full refund and vet bills should be given sod the exo and stuff cos its no use to her with no cresties is it.

helena im so sorry for your loss


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## fuzzielady

amber_gekko said:


> You should report them, if the seller didn't realise that the cresties were at deaths door then who knows about their other reps.
> 
> The way i see it is that if the seller has nothing to hide and keeps her / his reptiles properley then they have nothing to fear from an RSPCA investigation and if they are saying you did nothing and its all a lie then the RSPCA will find this out.
> 
> As an outsider reading this you could argue that the seller knew something was wrong hence the sale (before i get grief im not saying they did!)
> Ive had this done to me, i bought a blizzard leopard gecko a few years ago, the guy offered to deliver, when it arrived it was cold so wasn't moving much and i thought nothing of it, next day it was dead - i text him he laughed he knew it was ill - i didn't know where he lived what could i do!
> 
> Im so sorry for what you've had to go through


The advantage I have is I "do know" where she lives :whistling2:

My original idea for starting this thread was to make people aware of what MBD could do and the seller kept saying "I didn't neglect them, I'm not like that" hence the title. It is becoming obvious that this kind of thing is happening quite a lot. Maybe everyone that it has happened to should put it on the boards if they don't get any satisfaction from seller. Obviously they would need some sort of proof or anyone could threaten seller to try and get money back, even when animal is in full health.


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## fuzzielady

wacky69 said:


> i have just read this and i am disgusted im sorry she must have known there was something wrong with these its as plain as day (i'll prob get flamed for this but i dont care) for her to keep shifting the blame from helena to ditta and Cat it kinda proves she knows she is the one to blame. kinda seems to me she is blaming rep taxi cos of personal issues and nothing to do with anything that they have done which we all know they havent done anything. she needs to put her hands up and say my bad a full refund and vet bills should be given sod the exo and stuff cos its no use to her with no cresties is it.
> 
> helena im so sorry for your loss


 
If she showed remorse it wouldn't be so bad and if she did, it would have to be sincere and not just because she had her reputation to think of. If she was then there is less chance something like this would happen with any of her other animals.


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## spikes n scales

I have read the entire post, I am very sorry you had to go through all that. 

With being quite a noob, I don't want to make much comment. I would like is to see the other reptiles this person has, to make sure they look healthy. 

I really have a problem with animal cruelty (I am sure more people do as well), intentional or not. After seeing the X-rays, I find it hard to believe that there were no signs of discomfort, or illness, when they were in the seller's care. 

I would not hesitate to inform the RSPCA, although the reptile community could do without cases of reptile cruelty to support the RSPCA's policies.

Neil.


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## Pliskens_Chains

I find this whole thing absolutely disgusting.
im not afraid to stand up and say that the seller is FULLY REPONSIBLE for the condition those cresties were/are in.
im new to Gecko species and have recently got a leo, im not afraid to ask questions about their care and needs as there is only so much a book can tell you and experienced owners have so much information to share.
If the previous owner had bothered to read up on these cresties needs then they would not have been so sick.
The seller owes a full refund and vets bills and should really consider handing any remaining reps over to someone who can look after them properly.
im so sorry that anyone should have to go through the heart renching pain of watching their new pets suffer and die due to the ignorance and neglect that they went through at the hands of someone else.


there is always the thought of an RSPCA investigation and then theres the small claims court too.
if you take it to the small claims court the original buyer will have to pay full vets costs and the amount you paid for the animals in the first place and hers and your own court costs.
an RSPCA investigation will also possibly result in the original seller being banned from keeping animals.


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## fuzzielady

Not sure where to start with small claims court, saying that I didn't know how to involve the RSPCA either before today.

I think the most horrific thing I have ever dealt with, in my life, was trying to keep the remaining one alive until the vets opened. That was 8 hours of absolute hell, begging people to give me some advice that might keep her going at least until morning. For that I will never forgive her no matter what she does but to then post that she didn't believe they had either had vet treatment or died. I have met a lot of horrid people but never anyone like her.


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## wacky69

fuzzielady said:


> If she showed remorse it wouldn't be so bad and if she did, it would have to be sincere and not just because she had her reputation to think of. If she was then there is less chance something like this would happen with any of her other animals.


thing is it seems shes in denial i think she actually believes shes telling the truth. we where talking bout it and i was like 1)i wouldnt let any rep of mine get ill if i had a choice and she did have a choice!! 2) if i had sold a sick animal i would offer 100% refund and me being me would offer to pay for return of animals and some of your rep taxi bill.

but i think the chance of getting her to show remorse is slim to none cos its seems all she is bothered bout its the MONEY not the CRESTIES which is NOT why we are in this hobby its all about the REPS not the MONEY!!! i dont know anything bout cresties but you know when your animal is not well

i hope you get this sorted out i really do


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## cornmorphs

i'm gonna close for now.. had a few complaints about bullying.
i'll refer to the mods section and have alook when i have more time.


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## cornmorphs

wow, what a mess.
i've read alot of it, as it was me who closed it on request.
i decided not to delete it though.
I will have another good read when i get a bit of time, then have a chat with the other mods to see what they wish to do on the subject.
thanks for your patience.
Nigel


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## cornmorphs

Having received a pm from Helena, she has requested the thread stay closed.
She is, obviously extremely upset with the sitution and for the poor animals involved.
At this point, i personally do not know how this will end off of the forum, but in the best interests of Helena, i have agreed to keep the thread closed.


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