# New health condition found in Chihuahuas!



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

A long-time Chihuahua exhibitor has bravely come out & announced that some of his Chihuahuas have a newly found health problem in the breed. This condition was famously brought to the public attention in the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme 3 years ago, in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. The condition is called Syringomyelia, or SM for short. 

This has shaken the Chihuahua community. Some breeders are already having their stock tested. This is done by costly MRI scans. Aparently in Cavaliers, they are scanned after they are 12 months, then again after 3 years, & once more at 5 or 6 years of age. There is still much research to be done into this problem in Cavaliers, & even more so in Chihuahuas.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

What a shame and how brave of him...
This is for the good of the breed tho and he has so done te right thing.
Some times you need to put your head before your heart.


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## PPVallhunds (May 23, 2010)

Well done on that person for bring attention to the problem. How many people would just keep it to themselves. Hopefully others in the breed will take it on and work to make it better rather than just saying its only in his/her lines and not in theres. Im sure some will say that but hopefully they will be in the minority.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree that's very noble and very brave of him to do that! No doubt he'll be castigated by some successful breeders who don't want it made public, but good on him for standing by his principles and making it known! :2thumb:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Well done to him, I wish more breeders where as honest.In the GSD epilepsy can be a problem in some lines yet big breeders are still sweeping it under the carpet and refusing to test :devil:

Col, I have a list of specialists that do really cheap MRI scans for SM, someone told me about it when I was thnking of having Dolly scanned


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Well done to him, I wish more breeders where as honest.In the GSD epilepsy can be a problem in some lines yet big breeders are still sweeping it under the carpet and refusing to test :devil:
> 
> Col, I have a list of specialists that do really cheap MRI scans for SM, someone told me about it when I was thnking of having Dolly scanned


Could you PM me the list hun, so I can post it on the Chihuahua group on Facebook please? x


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> Could you PM me the list hun, so I can post it on the Chihuahua group on Facebook please? x


Do you think it will be more an issue with small bred type ones, Colin. Hope Dexter and Co are all fine.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Whilst reading up on the Bichon Frise, I found that apparently they too seem predisposed to SM and CM. I am now wondering if the condition is far more widespread in the smaller breeds but people are just keeping their mouths shut..?


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

5plusmany said:


> Whilst reading up on the Bichon Frise, I found that apparently they too seem predisposed to SM and CM. I am now wondering if the condition is far more widespread in the smaller breeds but people are just keeping their mouths shut..?


I think that the original animals dogs were created from being such large animals that there would have always been issues fitting the brain and many other organs into a frame around one-tenth to one-20th of the size.

(I say animals as I strongly believe recent studies which suggest some more ancient breeds especially the hunting dogs of ancient North African nations are not wolf descendants (or at least not purely) and are actually descendants of jackals or at least jackal crosses)


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## valentinogaremi (May 1, 2012)

Well I think you right zoo there are some minor problem in these type of breed. But not worry you can consult to specialist, he will tell you some tips and for more information about this you can search on Google.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Was this the one released on April 22nd in America?

Syringomyelia Health Alert in Chihuahuas


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

selina20 said:


> Was this the one released on April 22nd in America?
> 
> Syringomyelia Health Alert in Chihuahuas


this is the 1st iv heard of this :gasp:

it was an intresting read i have noticed some chi's at shows scratching alot tho, hopefully people breeding will have the tests done. 

if a dog is found to have it what can be done?? do they have to have an op or is there nothing that can be done??


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

It seems like it stems from one person with lines from all over the world, so it could have been brought in from somewhere else. You'd be hard pressed to find a Chihuahua thats been scanned for SM at the moment.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> It seems like it stems from one person with lines from all over the world, so it could have been brought in from somewhere else. You'd be hard pressed to find a Chihuahua thats been scanned for SM at the moment.


yes but now everyone knows there is no reason for breeders not to have the tests done, they can always wait to have a litter til after tests are done. plus they may be expensive tests but its not like breeders sell pups for a couple hundered pounds 1 pup would cover the test and more. 

there is also a lot of pattella (sp lol) trouble in chis


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> yes but now everyone knows there is no reason for breeders not to have the tests done, they can always wait to have a litter til after tests are done. plus they may be expensive tests but its not like breeders sell pups for a couple hundered pounds 1 pup would cover the test and more.
> 
> there is also a lot of pattella (sp lol) trouble in chis


The test for SM is recommended to scan first at about 12 months of age, then again at about 3 year old, then again at about 6 years old. Thats too old for a maiden bitch to have a first litter, & too old for a stud dog to start his work. And even after those scans, you still aren't guaranteed to get a definate answer.

Speaking of patella problems, you don't know about Dexter do you? We took him back to his breeder on Saturday as he was skipping on his left hind leg.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> The test for SM is recommended to scan first at about 12 months of age, then again at about 3 year old, then again at about 6 years old. Thats too old for a maiden bitch to have a first litter, & too old for a stud dog to start his work. And even after those scans, you still aren't guaranteed to get a definate answer.
> 
> Speaking of patella problems, you don't know about Dexter do you? We took him back to his breeder on Saturday as he was skipping on his left hind leg.


:gasp: omg no i didnt know, did he have a patella problem he seemed fine last time i saw him?? ru getting him back or is that it?? my mum bought a german spitz with lux patella she had the operation done on her and she lost her a few years ago due to old age. im after another chi boy n i was speaking to some breeders they said patellas r really bad in chi at the min. they said look out for the way they place there back feet down if its slightly up at the back then thats a sign as they may not limp. abit like standing on tiptoes, if u get what i mean lol. 
send dexter to my house :flrt:
i know a few other small breeds of dog that breeders have bred n used all sorts of mite treatment etc on coz they were scratching all the time even in the ring, anyway turned out they didnt have mites or fleas etc so they got rid of them coz they didnt know what was wrong with em it was probably this sm thing, so i bet its not just chis n cavs with it :whistling2:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

sorry but... pfft fecking toy dog owners what did you all expect.... :bash:

right ow ill go read the thread.... :whistling2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> :gasp: omg no i didnt know, did he have a patella problem he seemed fine last time i saw him?? ru getting him back or is that it?? my mum bought a german spitz with lux patella she had the operation done on her and she lost her a few years ago due to old age. im after another chi boy n i was speaking to some breeders they said patellas r really bad in chi at the min. they said look out for the way they place there back feet down if its slightly up at the back then thats a sign as they may not limp. abit like standing on tiptoes, if u get what i mean lol.
> send dexter to my house :flrt:
> i know a few other small breeds of dog that breeders have bred n used all sorts of mite treatment etc on coz they were scratching all the time even in the ring, anyway turned out they didnt have mites or fleas etc so they got rid of them coz they didnt know what was wrong with em it was probably this sm thing, so i bet its not just chis n cavs with it :whistling2:


Well we're not sure what it was, as the breeder has had him vet checked & theres no sign of patella luxation, but it must be something. We aren't having him back , we got a full refund & are probably going to get an Italian Greyhound from our friend who's bitch had a litter last week. We'll have to see what we get from Lolly & Indy when they are bred.



ermgravy said:


> sorry but... pfft fecking toy dog owners what did you all expect.... :bash:
> 
> right ow ill go read the thread.... :whistling2:


Huh? Do elaborate....


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

i must admit col im really shocked u would get rid of him, i thought he was ur pet before just a show dog : victory:, he mite of just pulled his leg jumping or something thats why i dont agree with young well any dogs bonking all the time they can injure themselves.

why didnt u have him checked out before u sent him back?? ur lucky she gave u a full refund most breeders wouldnt have given u a full refund. what will happen if u get the grey hound pup n there is something wrong with that??


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> i must admit col im really shocked u would get rid of him, i thought he was ur pet before just a show dog : victory:, he mite of just pulled his leg jumping or something thats why i dont agree with young well any dogs bonking all the time they can injure themselves.
> 
> why didnt u have him checked out before u sent him back?? ur lucky she gave u a full refund most breeders wouldnt have given u a full refund. what will happen if u get the grey hound pup n there is something wrong with that??


I didn't just 'get rid of him'. He started skipping about 3 weeks ago, just once every now & then & it slowly got more frequent. Even his breeder mentioned it at Scottish Chihuahua Club show. It was her recommendation that he be returned to her for a full refund. She is a veterinary assistant, a great breeder, & certainly did the responsible thing. It was hard, he was bought as a show dog, & £900 for a dog that we can't show or breed from is daft. If there is something wrong with any pup I buy in the future, depending on the nature of the fault, I would expect the breeder to be responsible & fair, & to help in the future of that dog.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

exactly what Kare said.... plus ill go as far as breeding and owning dogs for the ring is a disgusting practice adding to the problems as much as you may like to think yall doing a good thing the only reasons to own dogs other than for work is as a pet. Where breeding is concerned the only reason to breed a dog is that it is fit for purpose not that it looks pretty....

did you all really think this was going to limited to ckcs??? its a time bomb! western show and toy breeds are going to be killing them selfs off from the inside out over the next 100years unless something far to drastic for the current generation in control to do it would seem. watch this space.... the only hope is when current bodys shape up and relise how drastic changes need to be and quickly. 

as for taking a dog back to breeder.... good opportunity for breeder to cover up possible genetic flaws in there line. Not to mention imho its a complete cop out on that animal too. The monetary factor is insignificant! that is an animal with feelings and as a dog it will have bonded???... ive had xb Asian Arowana thats a fish develop drop eye a 100% genetic condition and the last thing i would have done is pass the fish back to the farm, yes i informed them thats it tho. Its value is far inexcess of 900 and thats a fish, genetic conditions are a fact of life and as a animal lover you should be prepared to take the bad with the good.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> exactly what Kare said.... plus ill go as far as breeding and owning dogs for the ring is a disgusting practice adding to the problems as much as you may like to think yall doing a good thing the only reasons to own dogs other than for work is as a pet. Where breeding is concerned the only reason to breed a dog is that it is fit for purpose not that it looks pretty....
> 
> did you all really think this was going to limited to ckcs??? its a time bomb! western show and toy breeds are going to be killing them selfs off from the inside out over the next 100years unless something far to drastic for the current generation in control to do it would seem. watch this space.... the only hope is when current bodys shape up and relise how drastic changes need to be and quickly.
> 
> as for taking a dog back to breeder.... good opportunity for breeder to cover up possible genetic flaws in there line. Not to mention imho its a complete cop out on that animal too. The monetary factor is insignificant! that is an animal with feelings and as a dog it will have bonded???... ive had xb Asian Arowana thats a fish develop drop eye a 100% genetic condition and the last thing i would have done is pass the fish back to the farm, yes i informed them thats it tho. Its value is far inexcess of 900 and thats a fish, genetic conditions are a fact of life and as a animal lover you should be prepared to take the bad with the good.


Oooo, Im really getting it now aren't I? The breeder did the responsible thing, taking back an animal that they had produced which developed problems that meant it was no longer fit for the purpose for which it was sold. Breeders have (or at least should) a responsiblilty for animals they produce & sell. If that animal is not suitable, they tell buyers to return the animal. Yes, it was very hard to take the dog back, but he is well loved by his breeders, he will be looked after & want for nothing. If you think the monetary factor is insignificant, you must obviously be very wealthy. And I'm well aware what an Arowana is. Show people & pet people are different.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

yeap yall are responsible for this situation and far to quick to pass the buck pf responsibility for the effect yall are having on these breeds that apparently mean so much its disgusting end of....


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> yeap yall are responsible for this situation and far to quick to pass the buck pf responsibility for the effect yall are having on these breeds that apparently mean so much its disgusting end of....


Mmm, yes, all these awful show breeders who breed for the betterment of the animal, who remove unwanted traits from breeding, etc etc. I bet the back yard breeders are all getting their Chihuahuas tested :whistling2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I dont breed and I dont show but I can understand why Dexter has gone back to his breeder, surely this is better than him being used as a stud dog that may pass his problems to his Progeny??


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Mmm, yes, all these awful show breeders who breed for the betterment of the animal, who remove unwanted traits from breeding, etc etc. I bet the back yard breeders are all getting their Chihuahuas tested :whistling2:


how do they breed for the betterment of the animals? they breed to make dogs look a certain way... uk guidelines are not guidelines they are awful strict set in stone laws within the community that produce garbage dogs that are unfit for work, it as a practice or the way it is right now here at least is disgusting... toy dogs in my eyes are trash but they are still animals who deserve a loving caring home... 

Shell, thats a giving that a dog with possible genetic conditions shouldn't be breed its still passing the buck...


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

ermgravy said:


> how do they breed for the betterment of the animals? they breed to make dogs look a certain way... uk guidelines are not guidelines they are awful strict set in stone laws within the community that produce garbage dogs that are unfit for work, it as a practice or the way it is right now here at least is disgusting... toy dogs in my eyes are trash but they are still animals who deserve a loving caring home...
> 
> Shell, thats a giving that a dog with possible genetic conditions shouldn't be breed its still passing the buck...


 
Toy dogs are bred as companion animals, not everyone has the space or desire to own working breeds. Just because you think so little of toy breeds doesnt mean that others do!!


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## powerpuffruth (Apr 2, 2012)

ermgravy said:


> yeap yall are responsible for this situation and far to quick to pass the buck pf responsibility for the effect yall are having on these breeds that apparently mean so much its disgusting end of....


Agreed ... When you breed for form without function you always run into problems eventually. It's a Biological and Evolutionary certainty and very sad for th dogs involved.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> toy dogs in my eyes are trash *but they are still animals who deserve a loving caring home...*





Shell195 said:


> Toy dogs are bred as companion animals, not everyone has the space or desire to own working breeds. Just because you think so little of toy breeds doesnt mean that others do!!


i said that to effect...


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

at the end of the day everyone has there own views, everyone at shows know my views on dogs n that is u keep them til the end thats why so many show breeders offer me dogs they no longer want to keep, as they want them going to a good home where they wont be gotten rid of and they respect me and my mum for what we do and our views. my mum shows dogs but dosnt breed and has bought some very nice little dogs but she has also bought a few off so called top breeders what have bad legs and other defects, however she has kept all of them. the last dog cost her £650 and the leg op for perths (sp) was £950 she also had to buy a treadmil that cost £100 that the dog had to go on everyday to build her leg muscles and help recovery so the bone heald smooth she didnt get a penny back from this so called top breeder, all she got was send the dog back to me, which she told her to go take a running jump as the breeder would have just had her pts. so not all people that show get rid and alot of my mums friends dont get rid but some do

just because i have different views in not falling out with my friends they do what they please as long as i dont do it. at least the breeder got dexter back col but remember next time post em through my letter box :lol2: 

there are some good breeders out there, but people that show and breed do tend to get rid of there dogs they admit that themselves but they need to remember if it wasnt for the pet homes out there who would pick up the pieces when the breeders dont want there dogs anymore.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> at the end of the day everyone has there own views, everyone at shows know my views on dogs n that is u keep them til the end thats why so many show breeders offer me dogs they no longer want to keep, as they want them going to a good home where they wont be gotten rid of and they respect me and my mum for what we do and our views. my mum shows dogs but dosnt breed and has bought some very nice little dogs but she has also bought a few off so called top breeders what have bad legs and other defects, however she has kept all of them. the last dog cost her £650 and the leg op for perths (sp) was £950 she also had to buy a treadmil that cost £100 that the dog had to go on everyday to build her leg muscles and help recovery so the bone heald smooth she didnt get a penny back from this so called top breeder, all she got was send the dog back to me, which she told her to go take a running jump as the breeder would have just had her pts. so not all people that show get rid and alot of my mums friends dont get rid but some do
> 
> just because i have different views in not falling out with my friends they do what they please as long as i dont do it. at least the breeder got dexter back col but remember next time post em through my letter box :lol2:
> 
> there are some good breeders out there, but people that show and breed do tend to get rid of there dogs they admit that themselves but they need to remember if it wasnt for the pet homes out there who would pick up the pieces when the breeders dont want there dogs anymore.


I agree with this. I won't judge other people for what they do but I couldn't hand a dog back whether it was for a pet or for showing. My dog has an undescended testicle I dont know if its a short tube or its tangled atm, I won't find out until it either drops or he goes under the knife. This dog would have been the same price (a fair old whack)whether it had been for showing, breeding or plain old pet. You don't get guarantees with nature, you can't guarantee a health dog neither can a breeder. I know my breeder would take him back in a heartbeat I'm in contact very regularly, but I just couldn't give him back for any sort of ailment, he's family now. Do people not form those sort of attachments to show dogs?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I couldn't send an animal back either for the same reason, that my animals are pets first, but I can understand why Colin returned Dexter.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

feorag said:


> I couldn't send an animal back either for the same reason, that my animals are pets first, but I can understand why Colin returned Dexter.


 
Thats why I ended up with 6 Siamese as if one wasnt good enough to show or breed then it became a pet :lol2: I would never make a good dog breeder as I just get to attached


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I can understand why someone who has paid a premium for a dog of show (or breeding) quality, returning the dog because it is not 'fit for purpose' and imo it is a mark of a good breeder to take the dog back with no quibbles. I wouldn't personally he able to unattach but still..
I have to in part agree with the argument that the show ring has produced these problems (ie Syringomyelia etc), I certainly know the breed standards for CKCS until very recently played a huge part in the prevelance of CM/SM in the breed now. As a breeder I have purposely defied those standards to produce healthier dogs. So many others don't though, that I have made the decision to no longer breed these wonderful, amazing dogs as I just think health-wise, they're too far gone now. Its a crying shame and I have to say I lay a lot of the blame at the show breeders' and breed clubs' doors.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> *how do they breed for the betterment of the animals?* they breed to make dogs look a certain way... uk guidelines are not guidelines they are awful strict set in stone laws within the community that produce garbage dogs that are unfit for work, it as a practice or the way it is right now here at least is disgusting... toy dogs in my eyes are trash but they are still animals who deserve a loving caring home...
> 
> Shell, thats a giving that a dog with possible genetic conditions shouldn't be breed its still passing the buck...


By not breeding from dogs with problems such as patella luxation, for example? 



DavieB said:


> I agree with this. I won't judge other people for what they do but I couldn't hand a dog back whether it was for a pet or for showing. My dog has an undescended testicle I dont know if its a short tube or its tangled atm, I won't find out until it either drops or he goes under the knife. This dog would have been the same price (a fair old whack)whether it had been for showing, breeding or plain old pet. You don't get guarantees with nature, you can't guarantee a health dog neither can a breeder. I know my breeder would take him back in a heartbeat I'm in contact very regularly, but I just couldn't give him back for any sort of ailment, he's family now. *Do people not form those sort of attachments to show dogs?*


Of course we do, it was extremely hard to return Dexter to his breeder.



5plusmany said:


> *I can understand why someone who has paid a premium for a dog of show (or breeding) quality, returning the dog because it is not 'fit for purpose' and imo it is a mark of a good breeder to take the dog back with no quibbles.* I wouldn't personally he able to unattach but still..
> I have to in part agree with the argument that the show ring has produced these problems (ie Syringomyelia etc), I certainly know the breed standards for CKCS until very recently played a huge part in the prevelance of CM/SM in the breed now. As a breeder I have purposely defied those standards to produce healthier dogs. So many others don't though, that I have made the decision to no longer breed these wonderful, amazing dogs as I just think health-wise, they're too far gone now. Its a crying shame and I have to say I lay a lot of the blame at the show breeders' and breed clubs' doors.


Exactly! I can't think any higher of the breeder, wouldn't hesitate to purchase a puppy from her in the future, & she is someone I would mirror if a puppy I sell isn't as it was predicted.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

After noticing a picture of a Boston Terrier on a webpage about SM ealier, I decided to look into other breeds that SM can affect. Here is what I found, & I was very suprised.

"Some of the known affected breeds are the Brussels Griffon, Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Chihuahua, French Bulldog, King Charles Spaniel, Maltese, Pomeranian, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Hungarian Vizsla, Weimaraner, Rhodesian Ridgeback, and Poodle"


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> After noticing a picture of a Boston Terrier on a webpage about SM ealier, I decided to look into other breeds that SM can affect. Here is what I found, & I was very suprised.
> 
> "Some of the known affected breeds are the Brussels Griffon, Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Chihuahua, French Bulldog, King Charles Spaniel, Maltese, Pomeranian, *Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Hungarian Vizsla*, Weimaraner,* Rhodesian Ridgeback, and Poodle"*


Surprised at those ones, not so much at any of the rest. 

French bulldogs are another breed that has been bred very much to its detriment, needs turkey basting doesn't it?


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

not at all david think about it, RR breeders cull puppies form not having ridges... they are all over breed for looks in show ring circles...


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> By not breeding from dogs with problems such as patella luxation, for example?


haha you think by simply eliminating genetic conditions you improve a breed? :whistling2:


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

ermgravy said:


> not at all david think about it, RR breeders cull puppies form not having ridges... they are all over breed for looks in show ring circles...


Them and the visla don;t exactly have small heads, my mate breeds the vislas cracking dogs those are. He has short and wirehaired ones.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

nope but uk show lines heads are nothing like old afro hunting line RR's in old pics the heads width has been reduced a lot...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> not at all david think about it, RR breeders cull puppies form not having ridges... they are all over breed for looks in show ring circles...


I think you'll find most breeders of Ridgebacks actually pet home any ridgeless puppies that may crop up.



ermgravy said:


> haha you think by simply eliminating genetic conditions you improve a breed? :whistling2:


Erm, yes! :whistling2:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> I think you'll find most breeders of Ridgebacks actually pet home any ridgeless puppies that may crop up.
> 
> doesn't matter there are nasty exceptions... still point remains they look nothing like they used too...
> 
> Erm, yes! :whistling2:


Erm, no! by true gsd standards nothing less than a champ in ger shutz is breed... that is improving the breed by proving stock!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> Erm, no! by true gsd standards nothing less than a champ in ger shutz is breed... that is improving the breed by proving stock!


How would you like a Chihuahua to prove itself sweet-cheeks? :whistling2:


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> After noticing a picture of a Boston Terrier on a webpage about SM ealier, I decided to look into other breeds that SM can affect. Here is what I found, & I was very suprised.
> 
> "Some of the known affected breeds are the Brussels Griffon, Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Chihuahua, French Bulldog, King Charles Spaniel, Maltese, Pomeranian, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Hungarian Vizsla, Weimaraner, Rhodesian Ridgeback, and Poodle"


Not at all suprised by the small breeds but the bigger hunting dogs, I would have thought they would still be nicely proportioned, healthy dogs, they _should_ be. I suppose the staff is suprising too because it seems most people want to upsize the size of bull breeds heads, guess not with the staffy? Is there anything else that causes SM or is it just the skull is too small for the brain because of breeding? 



Zoo-Man said:


> The test for SM is recommended to scan first at about 12 months of age, then again at about 3 year old, then again at about 6 years old. Thats too old for a maiden bitch to have a first litter, & too old for a stud dog to start his work. And even after those scans, you still aren't guaranteed to get a definate answer.
> 
> Speaking of patella problems, you don't know about Dexter do you? We took him back to his breeder on Saturday as he was skipping on his left hind leg.


12 months is too old to start breeding? :O really? I thought they were still just a pup until 2? What will happen if you breed after 12 months is up? ...or do you mean according to the KC show stuff or something?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

em_40 said:


> Not at all suprised by the small breeds but the bigger hunting dogs, I would have thought they would still be nicely proportioned, healthy dogs, they _should_ be. I suppose the staff is suprising too because it seems most people want to upsize the size of bull breeds heads, guess not with the staffy? Is there anything else that causes SM or is it just the skull is too small for the brain because of breeding?
> 
> 
> 12 months is too old to start breeding? :O really? I thought they were still just a pup until 2? What will happen if you breed after 12 months is up? ...or do you mean according to the KC show stuff or something?


No, 6 years is too old, not 12 months :lol2:


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

em_40 said:


> Not at all suprised by the small breeds but the bigger hunting dogs, I would have thought they would still be nicely proportioned, healthy dogs, they _should_ be. I suppose the staff is suprising too because it seems most people want to upsize the size of bull breeds heads, guess not with the staffy? Is there anything else that causes SM or is it just the skull is too small for the brain because of breeding?
> 
> 
> 12 months is too old to start breeding? :O really? I thought they were still just a pup until 2? What will happen if you breed after 12 months is up? ...or do you mean according to the KC show stuff or something?


 i think what he means is by the 3rd test the dog is too old to breed as u cant reg pups if the bitch os over 6, however they could still have the 1st test done and then have a litter which i think they should as its worth it incase this sm is picked up or signs of it (not sure how that works tho) show up in the 1st test


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> No, 6 years is too old, not 12 months :lol2:


Was just about to edit to ask if you meant that, lol....

Surely it would be evident at 12 months and worse at 3 years and worse still at 6 years? I assume it doesn't just show up at about 6, or does it? Otherwise there'd be no point having it done at 12 months and 3 years. Doesn't the trend show that they suggest you test 3 yearly? I would assume if it was still around you might want to check on it at 9 and 12 too...

I suppose it doesn't tell you for definate whether you_ can_ breed from them or not, as it may not show one test but then show up the next, but atleast will show up which ones you _can't _breed from if it does show up on the first test. (if that makes sense)


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

em_40 said:


> Not at all suprised by the small breeds but the bigger hunting dogs, I would have thought they would still be nicely proportioned, healthy dogs, they _should_ be. I suppose the staff is suprising too because it seems most people want to upsize the size of bull breeds heads, guess not with the staffy? *Is there anything else that causes SM or is it just the skull is too small for the brain because of breeding?*
> 
> 
> 12 months is too old to start breeding? :O really? I thought they were still just a pup until 2? What will happen if you breed after 12 months is up? ...or do you mean according to the KC show stuff or something?


This is what SM is caused by

Syringomyelia is a condition where a sac filled with fluid develops in the spinal cord of the dog. This can be due to several different reasons, where the most common one in dogs is a malformation of the Chiari I. In dogs suffering from this type of malformation, the occipital bone is underdeveloped and interferes with the circulation of spinal fluid. This causes fluid to accumulate in the cervical spinal cord of the dog.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I've just heard of a Chihuahua with SM being born from 2 clear parents. So, this makes the whole thing even more complicated.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

Shell195 said:


> This is what SM is caused by
> 
> Syringomyelia is a condition where a sac filled with fluid develops in the spinal cord of the dog. This can be due to several different reasons, where the most common one in dogs is a malformation of the Chiari I. In dogs suffering from this type of malformation, the occipital bone is underdeveloped and interferes with the circulation of spinal fluid. This causes fluid to accumulate in the cervical spinal cord of the dog.


Hmmm... so why does a sac fill with fluid? :hmm: 

It isn't just something normal happening that doesn't fit into the skull and so causes pressure and heamoraging like I thought it was then?

Edit: malformation right... what are the other reasons? XD

-heads to google instead of further making a fool of myself-


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

em_40 said:


> Hmmm... so why does a sac fill with fluid? :hmm:
> 
> It isn't just something normal happening that doesn't fit into the skull and so causes pressure and heamoraging like I thought it was then?
> 
> ...


 
Im no expert, I took that off google:lol2: I did quite a bit of research when I got my wonky Cavalier pup and it really is complicated


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/syringomyelia/docs/cmsmeng.pdf

It basically is that the brain is too big for the skull (that's the CM 'chiari-like malformation' bit) but it's the 'piston-like' pressure on the spinal cord that causes pockets to appear in the spinal cord and fill with spinal fluid (which is SM), it's apparently difficult to judge whether a dog will get SM because severity of CM does not dictate likely-hood of SM... 

learn something new every day...

(The list of known cases is slightly different to the list Zooman put up on there too)

Personally feel that if that's the case, any dog with CM should not be bred from, but I guess that would be a lot of dogs.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

em_40 said:


> http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/syringomyelia/docs/cmsmeng.pdf
> 
> It basically is that the brain is too big for the skull (that's the CM 'chiari-like malformation' bit) but it's the 'piston-like' pressure on the spinal cord that causes pockets to appear in the spinal cord and fill with spinal fluid (which is SM), it's apparently difficult to judge whether a dog will get SM because severity of CM does not dictate likely-hood of SM...
> 
> ...


I think the list I saw wasn't British, as what they called Brussels Griffon, we call Griffon Bruxellois. 

As regards the breeding, if clear dogs can produce offspring with SM, then its a chance you take when breeding. My fellow Chihuahua exhibiting friends aren't testing yet, but we are all hoping that a breed seminar about the condition is arranged very soon by one of the breed clubs.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> I've just heard of a Chihuahua with SM being born from 2 clear parents. So, this makes the whole thing even more complicated.


not at all! thought on a reptile forum most people understood recessive genetics to a basic level... :whistling2:

And how a breed is proven is none of my concern for a breed i have no interest or involvement with... That is down to the breed clubs to each look at their codes of practices and rewrite them in a appropriate way to improve the breeds, how they prove them doesn't matter but you raise a point chi's aren't even suitable to catch a rat...


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> not at all! thought on a reptile forum most people understood recessive genetics to a basic level... :whistling2:
> 
> And how a breed is proven is none of my concern for a breed i have no interest or involvement with... That is down to the breed clubs to each look at their codes of practices and rewrite them in a appropriate way to improve the breeds, how they prove them doesn't matter but you raise a point chi's aren't even suitable to catch a rat...


mines caught a mouse before :lol2:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

If everyone just stopped trying to piddle about with nature with bloody 'teacup' this and 'micro' that, most of these problems would be rare.
I mean there are soo many breeds out there, leave em be and people should choose the correct one for their lifestyle.. and some of the breed clubs need to seriously reassess their ethics!


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

5plusmany said:


> If everyone just stopped trying to piddle about with nature with bloody 'teacup' this and 'micro' that, most of these problems would be rare.
> I mean there are soo many breeds out there, leave em be and people should choose the correct one for their lifestyle.. and some of the breed clubs need to seriously reassess their ethics!


or even stop judging them on aesthetics.....

I feel a bit hypocritical here, my dog is from showlines but he will never see the inside of a ring. In my defence there are not a lot of RBT breeders in the UK and I'd have to to Eastern Europe for working lines.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

DavieB said:


> or even stop judging them on aesthetics.....
> 
> I feel a bit hypocritical here, my dog is from showlines but he will never see the inside of a ring. In my defence there are not a lot of RBT breeders in the UK and I'd have to to Eastern Europe for working lines.


Not hypocritical at all, you needed certain things from a breed and found a healthy breed with the character and aspects you needed.

I adore German Shepherds, they are my breed and have been since the point I was so small I had to look up to look them in the eyes. However one day I wish to buy a puppy and I even have a desire to experience breeding. Due to this I will likely leave the GSD breed behind, or perhaps always continue to rescue GSDs but the breed I will choose to continue forward with will be the healthier Hovawart breed...if in fact I do not just stick to rescuing the GSDs.

IMO there are some breeds that are already past back tracking as a breed and there has to be some heavy introduction of new breed blood or just allowed to come to a natural end.


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## DavieB (Mar 15, 2011)

Kare said:


> Not hypocritical at all, you needed certain things from a breed and found a healthy breed with the character and aspects you needed.
> 
> I adore German Shepherds, they are my breed and have been since the point I was so small I had to look up to look them in the eyes. However one day I wish to buy a puppy and I even have a desire to experience breeding. Due to this I will likely leave the GSD breed behind, or perhaps always continue to rescue GSDs but the breed I will choose to continue forward with will be the healthier Hovawart breed...if in fact I do not just stick to rescuing the GSDs.
> 
> IMO there are some breeds that are already past back tracking as a breed and there has to be some heavy introduction of new breed blood or just allowed to come to a natural end.


DDR lines are healthy GSD's


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

DavieB said:


> DDR lines are healthy GSD's


Physically, possibly, but not necessarily. Mentally, no they are not. I would never ever want a German shepherd like that. 

There are plenty of healthy "English" or rather "Old German" type German shepherds. When we were under quarantine procedures there were very few imports and the lines we had were the straight backed German shepherds brought over post war. These are the dogs I fell for, the dogs that could have actually been guards for sheep and calm companions to those working with the flocks not those sinister edgy types.

I also find that I react to the short coat GSDs, not normal allergy type symptoms, more unusual reactions like stomach cramping and general illness. Only one long coated dog ever caused this reaction and that was a rough collie. Strange though, all dogs have the same short coats in many areas of their body such as the tops of each leg, but true short coated dogs cause the pain and others just do not! I could not have a rottie even though i love them for this same reason, though when faced with one I often forget this fact

It is actually more the reactions of my type of German shepherd breeders closing down breeding from all those not already in their circle of breeding friends as a reaction to the health reports on the shepherds than their health issues directly that lead me to not consider a shepherd puppy or breeding shepherds. All pedigrees are endorsed and it is very much we can breed and you cannot mentality


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ermgravy said:


> not at all! thought on a reptile forum most people understood recessive genetics to a basic level... :whistling2:
> 
> And how a breed is proven is none of my concern for a breed i have no interest or involvement with... That is down to the breed clubs to each look at their codes of practices and rewrite them in a appropriate way to improve the breeds, how they prove them doesn't matter but you raise a point chi's aren't even suitable to catch a rat...


Toy breeds were developed to be small companions. Chihuahuas serve that purpose perfectly well for the right homes. What has catching a rat got to do with anything? But for your information, a friend's group of Chihuahuas actually caught & killed a wild Brown rat in a feild next to his home a couple of years ago.

Also, your breed isn't the healthiest, with hip dysplacia, heart problems, & others known to occur.


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## sqweg (Mar 5, 2009)

Back to the original point of the thread...!

As there was an issue with Dexter and this was why you returned him to breeder, which I understand on one level but not on another, will the responsible breeder now neuter him before finding him a new pet home or will they resell him to 'whosoever' wants to buy him and not bother telling them/making sure they know of the health issues he probably has?
He may well go to someone who will breed him irrelevant of his health issues!

I would have 'put it down to experience', 'taken the financial loss' and had him neutered and kept him as a loved pet forever. That's just me though.

On another note my mother has a terrier x chi mix of 12 years old who has lux pat and without the op has managed a very happy, healthy life thus far as a neutered pet. I have a tiny chi x who also skips ocassionally but he's been x-rayed and does not have lux pat at all it is just a habit he developed for attention when he was a puppy!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

sqweg said:


> Back to the original point of the thread...!
> 
> As there was an issue with Dexter and this was why you returned him to breeder, which I understand on one level but not on another, will the responsible breeder now neuter him before finding him a new pet home or will they resell him to 'whosoever' wants to buy him and not bother telling them/making sure they know of the health issues he probably has?
> He may well go to someone who will breed him irrelevant of his health issues!
> ...


The original point of this thread was to let people know of the recent discovery of Syringomyelia in Chihuahuas in this country! Nothing to do with Dexter at all!!! :devil:

But as you ask, the breeder is extremely responsible, & will pet home him to someone she knows & trusts.


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