# People giving there advice (why they shouldn`t ) and other minor irritations



## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I know it`s not possible but do you not think it would be great if people on here would not be able to give advice on a particular species without at least six months and preferably longer PRACTICAL experience.

I`m sick and tired of seeing people quote advice which is clearly lifted off web sites and then passed on as tho` they really know what they are talking about.

Worse still this second hand knowledge is then used to denegrade shops and other sellers on here .

Also why do people make the pius and self righteous comment ` i`ll be researching for the next six months for my next animal` EHH ? you could do your basic research in six minutes you don`t need six months ! You`ll never learn unless you have first hand experience of a snake/lizard.

There also seem to be too many people that take as gospel what they read on here .This isn`t some mystical script it`s a bunch of rag bag information some of it good ,some of it ok and lots of it second hand and of no value.

Here endeth the rant.

Go in peace friends.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

All true and valid points.

Sadly no amount of ranting is gonna change things IMO


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## blackdragon (Jun 27, 2008)

i don't think you need to have been keeping reptiles for years and years be for you can give advice, some things you can learn very quickly and some body who has been keeping something for only a day could in theory answer most of the common questions that come up on hear about temperature ,housing ,substraight and 100's of other facts that they can learn from different sources like books and forums and web sites, experience is very valuable and will teach you a lot more than the basics but in my opinion if you know the answer to somebody's question then why not give them that answer this forum would be dead as a dodo if people had to wait until the one or two experts came on-line to answer a simple question


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Fangio said:


> All true and valid points.
> 
> Sadly no amount of ranting is gonna change things IMO


 
I know ,i would never comment on things i don`t have first hand experience of ,i always try to state that my experiences are limited.

You know and i know who`s opinons on here that can normally be taken as cast iron.

And i`m guessing there are newcomers on here that have a wealth of experience ,i feel i can pick them out by the way they write but what about the rest .

A perpetual circle of misinformation in many cases.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

um there is a 12 or 14 year old kid, whos kept BD's for around a year, never bred, never had a sick one, never had a skinny one, never had one with mbd etc etc who gives out lots of advice, its the same advice, straight out of a book/s and care sheets, and if anything else 'take it to a vet'

i had them 10 years ago, had many sick ones come, skinny, problems come into me, bred them years ago, and picked up lots of things before i had the web/good shops/access to books etc...and hes put me down many times....as a lot of my info wasnt plucked out of a book, page 42 or what ever.

yeah ok i did things by trial and error, or tried new things years ago, but then thats how herpers did things in the 60 and 70's etc thats how books got written (and changed and updated)

until this year, i didnt know what a book said a basking spot said, when i made LG go and buy a book and read care sheets etc. so i sort of then followed that and what he said with basking spots for BD's, then by chance spoke to a breeder since the 80's who says, he kept his around 95deg in some vivs...lot less than 105 this kid was saying on here day after day.

i kept them for years in a v long viv, with a hot hot spot, but made sure was a cool cool end....if that makes sense.


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi all,

I tend to buy specilist books on the subject and do my own research,I know tese books are written by experts with many years experience.

As someone as already said a lot of people just regurgitate care sheets they have found on the net.

I form my own opinion about what I read in posts, there are certain members on here I respect their opinions and advice but I take nothing for gospel.

I am of the old school specialist books, came before computers and the internet.

Anyone can post on the net wether it is wright or wrong,use your own common sence.

Also people with high post counts does not make them knowledgeable, alot use the non snake sections to get high post counts.

slither61:snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

slither61 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I tend to buy specilist books on the subject and do my own research,I know tese books are written by experts with many years experience.
> 
> ...


i agree, care sheets, and 99% of people say never keept adult lep gex and juvis together, big no no.............yes in a book by one of the most respected herpers for god knows how long, has done it fine, with correct set up, i did it years ago, same sort of thing (by chance) and god would i be slated if i said to a newbie to do the same....


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

I think the very least we should expect is that people never offer authoritative advice on species they have never kept whatsoever.

My biggest bugbear is advice that misleads others because the giver has never actually put the advice they're giving into practice, so has no real idea of whether is dangerous or not.

Some of the areas in the forum are more crazy for it than others, most sections have at least a few genuinely experienced people who contribute and can at least try to iron out the fools.

Amphibs scares me the most, kids with firebellied newts since last week, people with wholly unrelated species, people with temperate species, advising temps and humidity for tropical treefrogs that they can't even identify. 


The people who have the experience to back up and reason the advice they give, never give up and don't let the apathy get you, someone has to counteract the bullplop and prevent people killing their own animals based on bad advice.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I feel it is paramount to pass on only what you know about and only really species specific.

For example I would never give advice on a bosc or a gren anaconda.

I only started giving advice AFTER I had nursed a Bearded Dragon who had pretty bad MBD, WITH vet guidance appointments and medication. The priocess took 5 mnonths and I also helped him each day with water physio to move his legs and also helped him to eat properly again proper insects etc.

I then rescued 2 WDs one who was close ot death again with Vet advice and care and a LOT of time and effort.. they were both nursed back to health. One far better than the other but both with good quality of life.

I have expereince of extreme bad shedding in a rescue crestie .. who unfortunately was so weak she died at the vet whilst laying her eggs..
I tend to stick only to that type of advice and I always always stress that nmo matter HOW much experience a person has.. ( added up I have around 4 years 2 when i was younger and 2 recently...so not much)

we are NOT vets NOT specialists and guessing can be as detremental as saying nothing at all. 

There are obvious basics for every species like heat and light and thermostats etc.. but non eating can be anything from crypto to blockages or parasites.. advice on here at times shocks me.. peopel say

So youre beardie isnt eating or moving much dont worry its winter...


the thing is MAYBE their beardie did that LAST year and it WAS brumation but to then suggest that ALL beardies in november/december arent eating or moving due to brumation is very very worrying and totally inacurate.

Guesses and comments like this slow down the person seeking correct vet attetnion and check ups.

If i ever do give basic advice I always mention that a vet should be contacted. There are several reasons for this.

ONE.. I have no idea if I have obtained all the relevant info from the person asking for advice.

TWO.. i am not able to visually SEE the animal and therefore mistakes can easily be made.

THREE and this is the most important one.. I am not a specialist in vetinary care or animal science.. so my advice will only be basic and could be irelevant.

basics are obvious and can easily be given.. husbandry issues addressed such as temps and feeding or even size of vivarium.

But after that advising to force feed a lizard or how much supplemtnts to give is pointless. Without weights and examanations advice could potentially be dangerous.

Recently I have told people this puiblically that their advice is dangerous and I have gotten a mouthful for it. However I would prefer to do this than see animals suffer due to bad advice.
I would far prefer if a person is in any doubt to help them locate a herptology specialist in their area and advise them to make a vet appointment asap.
You can suggest things like possible MBD or Bad sheds.. but the underlying reason is what needs treated . 
suggestions though at times on here are nothing short of horrific.
One person advised giving complan ( the dairy based human product) to a sick leo.. and others advise upping calcium supplements to what could be a dangeroud level.. and cause issues with over-calcification.. hypercalcimia..

anyway the general jist for me is..

if in doubt check it out.. WITH A SPECIALIST.. not on a forum for 6 weeks whilst your animal is losing weight and seems unwell..

Forums can help.. they cant cure!


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## claire_e_dodd (Sep 18, 2007)

Problem is, if you want advice that's valid, don't risk posting your question on a public forum. Look at my profile and it says i'm 25 with 7 snakes, I have 18 months keeping experience and I can provide photos of myself and my snakes, but it still doesn't prove i'm not a 69 year old bloke from Nigeria who's never even seen a snake in my life. 

Unfortunately if you don't like it, tough, I understand it's frustrating, my personal pet peev is replies such as;

"I think it's an amel, but i'm no expert" Following a reply from an experienced breeder stating it is for a fact a butter. If you don't know and you're no expert don't comment, I don't start threads so people can post some random rubbish to up their post count, if my question has been answered I expect the thread to die out, not go on for two pages of one word answers agreeing with what's already been said.

Well, rant over....


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Books are valid but there always taken from some one's experience i started keeping 23 years ago so we had few books and a book was about 10 pages long and did not have much information so we were left to make our own discoveries and mistakes i worked in import,petshops and reptile veterianry nursing over the years and you still learn something new everyday  sadly most people who put valid info up get a newbi keeper quoting a book trying to say oh that's wrong and so they can't be bothered any more 

paula


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## Willythegame (Sep 20, 2008)

have to say this thread has brought up a lot of constructive points but a few out and out rants,totally agree people shouldnt give information on species they have not kept,rip info from the net and pass it of as their own.

BUT the reason i use the net is to throw around ideas ,points of views in a non-argumentative fashion. I believe that to share idea's ,information that you believe may be useful to other keepers is why sites like this were set up. If not then why were they,so that a bunch of folk that share a common interest can argue about it?


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## blackdragon (Jun 27, 2008)

but is there not a danger hear that people will read grumbles like this and think that care sheets are useless, i think they are really good for bookmarking so you have like a quick access to relevant information kind of like a check list of things you need to know for your snake not a be all and end all of how to look after a reptile.
i don't really comment on animals i have not kept mostly because i don't read threads that are not relevant to anything i keep or are thinking of keeping.
I post where i think i know the answer and on subjects that i have had some experience of and think others should feel like they can also no matter how long they have been in the hobby, it is a pain when people post bad advice but they normally end up looking like fools when everyone else posts after them telling them how they have it wrong, well they do in the snakes section anyway


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## Willythegame (Sep 20, 2008)

think information wise,as well as other keepers most good information comes from your good books,tbh i think i get less relevant information on the forum as i used to.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I've bred beardies once but i can't remember a damn thing i did lol.

Hopefully if anyone was ever given wrong advice on here, there will be someone to say THATS WRONG i've done it in the past. So long as he OP leaves with correct advice it doesnt matter where\who it comes from.

Marina


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## Willythegame (Sep 20, 2008)

ah but we see posts fairly often that end in an argument as apossed to a conclusion?

some new keepers wud come on here and be like "whats going on", who do i listen to.


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## blackdragon (Jun 27, 2008)

Willythegame said:


> ah but we see posts fairly often that end in an argument as apossed to a conclusion?
> 
> some new keepers wud come on here and be like "whats going on", who do i listen to.


thats true but also a little bit more of a worry if this forum is the only research the new keeper had done or his only source of information


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

As you chaps have said usually someone shows up and sorts it all out and the OP goes away with the right idea.

But what about the people who go around giving slightly off advice and it isnt really spotted or corrected?

What about the people who give completely nuts advice and no one else knows any different?

What about if someone is given a crazy made up piece of advice, someone who is equally oblivious actually BACKS THEM UP two minutes later. The OP reads it and goes off to make the changes and doesnt come back? or doesnt come back for a week, or two weeks, or a month?

The above is literally happening here. I can't even contain my frustration with it and the people who do it never come back and apologise or at least offer an explanation of why they offered the false advice they did. 


People on here all desire to help for different reasons, the vast majority of them good. 
But the desire to help MUST ALWAYS be tempered with caution, consideration and weighed against the potential damage. 

There can't be rules in place and it's not really about length of experience.

It's about knowing your own boundaries, not wanting to just be a hero and seeming to know all the answers, not portraying your advice as a fact, not using an authoritative tone when it isnt warranted at all.

Lotte***


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Willythegame said:


> ah but we see posts fairly often that end in an argument as apossed to a conclusion?
> 
> some new keepers wud come on here and be like "whats going on", who do i listen to.


which is exactly the reason why if it is not a simple question like

do i need Uv for my beardie.. which is easily answered ..

if it IS more complicated or worrying.. suggestions can be made.. but it should be VERY clear vet advise should be sought..

we are ONLy a forum I keep trying to tell people who advise invasive treatments over the net that this is never a good idea due to the complicated nature of reptile health symtoms..

I can help people with basics but never never think what i say will make things better.. I know I bang on about VETS but I cant take repsonsibility for getting ti wrong over the net.. I have to know I can give basic help with the knowledge im doing everyhting i can to encourage the person asking for advice to seek immediate and proper helath care for that animal.



what is advised can ultimately and sadly make things wrose.. if we do not know WHY an animal is poorly how can internet advice be safe never mind credible..

even if it SEEMs like MBD how do we know for sure.. it needs diagnosed.. if someoen treats for MBD due to a forum saying it is.. it could do damage.. what if it ISNT..


POSSIBLY and MAYBE need to be used more often... as they are followed up with PLEASE GET IT CHECKED BY A PROFESSIONAL

this is what is lacking so often recently..

I nor anyone else here can safely concur what MAY or MAY NOT be wrong..

we can give personal experiences and explain what tests a keeper can ask a herp vet for.. we can tell them what MAY happen at the appointment and answer simple quesries such as what are the main rep antibiotics.. or do I use a syringe to administer meds..



but really past that it becomes unsafe and all guess work.. more needs to be done on the forum in general to encourage keepers old and new alike to seek professional advice and testing to discover the reasons behind their animals change in behaviour eating or poor health..

rather than saying "Oh its just brumation".. or "Oh just force feed it"..

too often a few simple badly thought out answers on an advice thread lead to MORE issues and i could pull up numerous threads where not seeking vet advice and thinking the forum knows what to do has resulted in RIP threads... its really worrying

I ask for advice when im worried or confused.. but i never think it replaces proper check ups or treatment .


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

some newbie lep gex owner was asking about using spot lights for them...so i said yes, i have done for over 10 years...2 people mentioned heat mats, then he had a go at me, saying i must have killed them, burt the viv down...been a stupid keeper etc...even after explaining how it works in the wild but he wouldnt listen, swore etc etc...

he then some time later asked another question, on something also i ahd kept for 10 years....wouldnt listen, then again started slagging me off....even though others too said it was fine

he thought he new everything, i can think of 3 things he asked, i told him, others told him and he wouldnt listen, if he didnt like what advice you gave him he would swear and insult you.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

cooljules said:


> some newbie lep gex owner was asking about using spot lights for them...so i said yes, i have done for over 10 years...2 people mentioned heat mats, then he had a go at me, saying i must have killed them, burt the viv down...been a stupid keeper etc...even after explaining how it works in the wild but he wouldnt listen, swore etc etc...
> 
> he then some time later asked another question, on something also i ahd kept for 10 years....wouldnt listen, then again started slagging me off....even though others too said it was fine
> 
> he thought he new everything, i can think of 3 things he asked, i told him, others told him and he wouldnt listen, if he didnt like what advice you gave him he would swear and insult you.


 
you see opinions differ about husbandry and thats ok.. as long as you can give reasons and explanations.. its the sloppy 5 word answers that drive me nuts..,

another thing annoying me recently is the CUDDLE CREW

when animal is sick instead of advice or urging a vet visit they just say

AWWW it wil be fine dont worry its just having an off day..

drives me insane

I only get really worried and incensed when people give one sentance answers no explanation and a newer keeper with a potential worrying issue about a rep must think.. AHA thats it

or as i said before when advice is given that should really only be done under vet supervision incase it makes the issues worse...


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

yes, i spent ages explaining that i use a bask hop spot at 1 end, on a mix of sand/pebbles and rock, so all gets hot all day, then when the lights go out, the kep gex come out and lay on the hot stuff as it retains heat, like they do in the wild...he wouldnt have none of it, said i am killing them slowly, and i said, been kept like this for 10 years so must be bloody slow!! yeah i tell newbies to get a mat n stat, as thats what everyone one says, but i have never but he wanted spot light..

same went for substrates...and something else

he didnt seem to understand, that many years ago, when people 1st kept them, way before internet, books, good advice etc, it was peoples trial and error that led to peoples knowledge, so the could write books etc, pass on info, what works and what doesnt...

he also asked can he not need a start for some set ups, so i expained it can be done, i do it with 20 vivs but all spot lights, but has to be tweaked...he said cool, then suddenly went crazy...


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## Darth_Vandal87 (Mar 2, 2008)

*Kinda gotta agree*



darwengray said:


> I know it`s not possible but do you not think it would be great if people on here would not be able to give advice on a particular species without at least six months and preferably longer PRACTICAL experience.
> 
> I`m sick and tired of seeing people quote advice which is clearly lifted off web sites and then passed on as tho` they really know what they are talking about.
> 
> ...


I think uve gotta gud point, cos i personally wudnt give nebody ne kind of help / advice unless i new it to be of actual help or if i had experience within the subject, i do however feel it wud be better if people maybe expressed there opinions slightly better rather than those who are adamant they are always rite.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

cooljules said:


> yes, i spent ages explaining that i use a bask hop spot at 1 end, on a mix of sand/pebbles and rock, so all gets hot all day, then when the lights go out, the kep gex come out and lay on the hot stuff as it retains heat, like they do in the wild...he wouldnt have none of it, said i am killing them slowly, and i said, been kept like this for 10 years so must be bloody slow!! yeah i tell newbies to get a mat n stat, as thats what everyone one says, but i have never but he wanted spot light..
> 
> same went for substrates...and something else
> 
> ...


 
my expereince back then would have been 1990.. no internet.. uv lighting was from fish tanks i think..

and god i gave the agamas pinkies once a week :devil:

they didnt die but stil i now know that wasnt the best thing to do... and i wouldnt do it now

.. and the snakes i co-habited..in the same glass tank.. which id never do now

i .. and i only kept for 2 years back then..

even then the animals were cared for by several of us.. more like house reps than any one single persons..

we did what we thought was right.. i can clearly see now not everything i did was right and some of it wrong.. i chatted to other keepers at wee meetings at pet shops in northamtonshire wher ei lived at the time. then in london when i moved.. but the info that was about simply isnt the same as it is now and science has moved forward too...

BUT I have changed the things i did back then that i see were clearly not safe and i am probably anal on hygiene now and overdo and baby my animals tanks..

Guards on bulbs.. over careful about cleanliness and substrate,

basics can always be debated.. and suggestions made..

but when an animal seems poorly.. to me giving concrete advice is dangerous.. and thats what i get annoyed about


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

oh yes...some things i did in the late 90's i wouldnt do now, it was normal then, but proved bad in the long run, like locust for igs...

i have changed some things, but i admit some oldies wont listen...


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## Ecologica (Oct 14, 2008)

I've been keeping inverts/amphibians/reptiles for about 15 years, i would never profess to being an expert and would certainly never give opinions on the care of species which i have never kept. There are a lot of people on this forum with a wealth of knowledge whose advice i would take on board but there are also people who give advice on subject they clearly know nothing about.

As one of my uni lecturers told me: read around a subject as much as possible from as many sources as possible and draw your own conclusions. 

I don't take anything as gospel just as i would not expect anyone to take what i say as gospel.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

im asking about a type of turtle we have just rehomed, now nothing about it...and it seems the owners didnt, as for the 2 years they had it, they thought it was something its not (as fotos i put up here people soon told me)

found a care sheet online and asked what people thought, said it was ok...but getting bits of refined info....and as they have given me advice before, all along the same lines, and not just read from a book or website, will go along with it...

i also foned my local rep shop (hes always busy so hard to get through) and asked him for some advice, and hes kept stuff over 20 years, and often says this is wrong, or this isnt great advice, or ignore that....


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

Ecologica said:


> I've been keeping inverts/amphibians/reptiles for about 15 years, i would never profess to being an expert and would certainly never give opinions on the care of species which i have never kept. There are a lot of people on this forum with a wealth of knowledge whose advice i would take on board but there are also people who give advice on subject they clearly know nothing about.
> 
> As one of my uni lecturers told me: read around a subject as much as possible from as many sources as possible and draw your own conclusions.
> 
> I don't take anything as gospel just as i would not expect anyone to take what i say as gospel.


in 15 years, have you ever had problems, had to care for sick stuff, made mistakes? if so and you have learnt whats best/not good and how to get stuff back to health, then your the type of person i would ask advice for....lots of people keep stuff, fine, straight out of a book from day 1 but with no actual problems or experimenting etc then they can offer no advice, aprt from temps and basic set up....


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## Ecologica (Oct 14, 2008)

cooljules said:


> in 15 years, have you ever had problems, had to care for sick stuff, made mistakes? ....


I've had my fair share of ups and downs, there are things i've done which i wouldn't repeat, i have cared for sick and injured herps (normally basic rehab, feeding and rehydration)in the past but my first port of call is usually the vet.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

Ecologica said:


> I've had my fair share of ups and downs, there are things i've done which i wouldn't repeat, i have cared for sick and injured herps (normally basic rehab, feeding and rehydration)in the past but my first port of call is usually the vet.


so the things you wouldnt repeat, would mean you can point people in the correct care, and what not to do, as you have tried it and didnt work...thats what im saying.

oh i agree about a vet, trouble is finding one, the last vet we saw, a rep vet, i had to tell and explain, so they let me sign a waiver and give me the meds etc i need and treat myself, and im no expert at all, by a long way, but that time, knew what i was doing in 10 years with that specie...but ask me about a gecko a bit diff, or a anphibian, aint got a clue, never kept them in my life....so i could read a book, offer a few words that it said but thats it


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## Ecologica (Oct 14, 2008)

cooljules said:


> so the things you wouldnt repeat, would mean you can point people in the correct care, and what not to do, as you have tried it and didnt work...thats what im saying.


If it's a situation that i had been in and/or species i had experience in then i would offer my opinion, if someone was going to repeat a mistake that i had made in the past then, again i would give them my opinion and if relevant try and point them in the direction of some expert guidance.


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## cooljules (May 20, 2008)

Ecologica said:


> If it's a situation that i had been in and/or species i had experience in then i would offer my opinion, if someone was going to repeat a mistake that i had made in the past then, again i would give them my opinion and if relevant try and point them in the direction of some expert guidance.


yeah agree totally...i wouldnt want anyone to make the mistakes i did, that i rectified etc. 

we all live and learn!


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

> If you don't know and you're no expert don't
> comment

This just made me see red. There are very few experts on here, and most of them don't post often. If we left all the commenting to the experts we wouldn't have a forum.
And nothing in life is for certain. There are loads of ways of keeping animals some better than others, but no BEST way.
If someone asks what substrate to use for a carpet, I'll probably say I use paper, and might explain a bit about why. It's not right or wrong. I doubt an expert would be able to argue that it's wrong even if they used aspen, and explained all the reasons it's superior TO THEM. 

If we don't discuss, even argue, what is the point of the forum.


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