# The Wc Debate......again!!!!



## slitherin (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi all, im gonna start it all off again:lol2:, weeminx seems to have it in for exopet due him importing WC "rare" lizards, and his classified adds are getting bogged down so here ya go,,, get the gloves on!!: victory:

opinions please..
(how do you put a poll on ere ???:lol2


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I dont really agree with WC, for one it doesnt help the hobby in terms of how the anti's and outsiders see it. 

Also I love animals, and conservation is just as important to me as keeping my pets, I would much rather there was a good population in its natural enviroment than people taking them for their own pets.

Sometimes I see how WC is nessesary though to get fresh bloodlines in on animals that are not common in captivity, but I think that these WC specimens should be brought in to breed from not just sold to anyone in the pet trade and go out and collect more.

Also sometimes I see very common species for sale that are WC which isnt right, someone said they saw WC cornsnakes on a certain site and theres just no need.


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## viper362 (Mar 4, 2007)

aint it against the law in most states to catch and sell WC corns?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I dont know enough about US law im afraid maybe it is, I just saw someone on here mention it in a discussion like this before about exotic-pets.co.uk


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## viper362 (Mar 4, 2007)

i do agree with your point though on WC corns thats just daft unless u need say 1 4 breeding to refresh the geans


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## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

There are that many Corns in captivity these days I dont see that there is ever any need to catch them wild, and international trade (ie Hamm, Houten) allows for new stock on a regular basis

HOWEVER, if it werent for the WC's then there would be no CB's. Those WC's really did corn enthusiasts a lot of favours back in the day, and the new generations have everything to gain now that they are not at risk of being caught for international sale.

This is what I wrote on the other thread and pretty much explains my opinion. I think Weeminx has a fair comment, just chose the wrong place to share it.........clearly she feels strongly enough about it to do so. Nonetheless she is entitled to her opinion, I just have a slightly different attitude to the importation of WC animals:



> I too hate the idea of WC animals being brought in, but my opinion is restricted to the case of animals rare, unknown, and not easily adapted to life in captivity.
> 
> Let me give you an example of why: Most people here know I keep Collared lizards. Very few people in the UK breed them, because of the 6 week brumation at 50 degrees. I know of only one other person in the UK that has successfully bred them intentionally, and thankfully his goals are the same as mine: I have 5 WC collareds. BUT...... I also have eggs in the bator, and for the sake of my 5 WC's, a lot more in the future will STAY in the wild, because when these popular lizards eventually are no longer imported into the UK because there are so many CB's available, then those WC's that came here will be nothing but history.
> 
> ...


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## slitherin (Jan 29, 2007)

exactly,,,,,,,,,lots of WC to start of with, then no need because of breeding, you have to start of somewhere and WC is the beggining every time regardless if you like it or not..


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

hmmm this has been exhausted before, so im not going to do a long reply, but i will say that although i understand the need for bringing in WC animals for CB programs and sustaining the environment, the 1 thing i cannot stand is people doing it for price. So many shops, online and physical sell both WC and CB, but the WC is a few pounds cheaper, and many people will go for that. I was the one who brought up the point of exoticpets.co.uk selling WC corns, and WC whites tree frogs, both readily available CB. There is NO need.

I firmly believe that WC animals should only be sold to those who can prove that they a)have the ability to care for them properly and treat for parasites where necessary - doesnt apply to most of us on here but in general b) intend to, and have the experience to CB those animals. 
The reply i got from Exotic-pets.co.uk about the WC corn situation was that 'breeders will understand the importance of bringing in fresh blood' and while i see the situation, there was no stipulation of the WC animals being used from breeding on the site. 
I do not feel that Exopet is doing anything wrong, the animals he's offered are rarely available CB and by selling to a forum like this, where the people clearly care about their animals enough to research them, he's doing the hobby a service. He also mentioned that he's keeping pairs for CB himself, which is an admirable venture for an importer, most wouldnt as long as they could ensure WC supply.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I have nothing against WC if due care and attention is given to them - people must understand that WC may have mites/parasites and treat as standard. That they will be stressed and may take many months to settle down to anything resembling normalcy.

I have no problem with shops / traders selling WC and sell some WC myself - as long as they are honest enough about it - because then the buyer is aware of the potential problems and can treat the lizard with kid gloves until they are adjusted. WC are usually a fair bit cheaper than CB.. what really annoys me is when some traders try to pass WC off as CB and stick a higher price tag on it.

Or shops that say "we don't stock WC, 100% CB", yet clearly have things like boscs, nile monitors, swifts, anoles, long tails, tokays, bibrons, those sort of things which are either never CB, or are never at the lower price when CB.. so they are clearly lying!

I don't really see the need to import WC leopard geckos, corn snakes, etc. I honestly think the blood pool is wide enough considering the majority of wholesalers import CB leopard geckos and corn snakes from the USA.. it's not like we're just limited to UK blood, it is quite easy to get from the USA which must have a fairly wide gene pool by now. However if someone decides they want a WC corn snake, i wouldn't want it myself but I'm not going to have a go at them for doing it either - that's their decision.


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## weeminx (Oct 28, 2006)

i didnt have "it in for exopet" and as he said i didnt have all the facts before i posted.i understand about the whole wc brought in for breeding programmes etc etc...what i dont understand is why they are so cheap.not only that but i have searched and searched for care sheets on both these reps and they are very few and far between.
i personally wouldnt buy wc reps of any species.i have seen and rescued wc reps after they have been shipped in and sold and in my experience most dont survive.i am sorry i posted a rant in the classifieds section i know this is a no no.its just they are such beautiful animals and i was concerned about the price and the stress these animals would be under being snatched from the wild and being shipped over here.exopet has confirmed he takes all the measures to make sure all are healthy etc etc before before sold thats fair enough.


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## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

Hmm..... See on that front I agree with Weeminx entirely, I think it is completely unnecessary to WC animals that are readily widely available in captivity. As far as I'm concerned thats simply unnecessary. They say the Mexican Red knee has been so heavily farmed from the wild in the 60's that the numbers were frighteningly low in the wild (and have not yet recovered), yet very very HIGH in captivity. This is as a direct result of over-collecting, but at least as a result of captive breeding the wild specimens can be pretty much left in peace. I dont see the need to catch wild corn snakes either, they aren't exactly difficult to buy CB.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

in the states there are professional herp collectors that have permits. it's all very above the table and done responsibly. like anything, some collecting is unsupervised and others are done responsibly. i see nothing wrong with managing a sustainable harvest in places where it helps the economy and actually protects the fauna. if you can make a buck from something then you are not going to destroy that source of income. people around the world are realizing that their natural resources are more valuable$$ if left intact than by being destroyed. in ghana, $1 goes to taxes for every ball python that is collected. that's a lot of money to help their government improve the lives of it's citizens. over collecting is the problem not responsible collecting. some people say there's no need for W.C. but it actually helps people and protects the environment in lots of cases.


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## slitherin (Jan 29, 2007)

weeminx said:


> i didnt have "it in for exopet" and as he said i didnt have all the facts before i posted.i understand about the whole wc brought in for breeding programmes etc etc...what i dont understand is why they are so cheap.not only that but i have searched and searched for care sheets on both these reps and they are very few and far between.
> i personally wouldnt buy wc reps of any species.i have seen and rescued wc reps after they have been shipped in and sold and in my experience most dont survive.i am sorry i posted a rant in the classifieds section i know this is a no no.its just they are such beautiful animals and i was concerned about the price and the stress these animals would be under being snatched from the wild and being shipped over here.exopet has confirmed he takes all the measures to make sure all are healthy etc etc before before sold thats fair enough.


 

if you are concerned about the price (how cheap they are) why did you say "i wouldnt want to line this guys pockets" AFTER he posted "the facts"?????


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## Guest (May 21, 2007)

What really annoys me is when you see WC royals etc....there is an abundance of CB ones....so for the sake of a few quid its not worth getting...especially as with wild caught ones you need to treat for parasites and god knows what else...feeding probs etc...so why do it?!

other rarer stuff i guess people should wait until more CB ones are produced.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

one of the problems with the sheer volume of illegal stuff, and you wouldnt even realise. did you know that in some countries, exporation of animals is second only to the drug market for profits?


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## weeminx (Oct 28, 2006)

slitherin said:


> if you are concerned about the price (how cheap they are) why did you say "i wouldnt want to line this guys pockets" AFTER he posted "the facts"?????


if you look....you will see i said "i wouldnt want to line this guys pockets" BEFORE he posted a large post containing the facts. 

ive already apologised for ranting in the classifieds i still have my opinion.i still wouldnt ever buy wc.and as for the price of these "rare" lizards...i still dont agree with that either.£30 quid to me is awfly cheap for such beautiful and"rare" 
creatures.


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## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

Maybe he isnt in it for the money so much as the desire to own a pair within his program? And is charging enough to cover his costs? In which case I commend him for not being a money grabbing, careless, typical importer.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

I personally see nothing wrong with WC animals that are NOT available as CB individuals. Animals that can currently be bread in large numbers to suit demand i see no reason to have WC. Such animals as corns, leo's, beardies etc. 

WC animals are currently a key part of the reptile keeping trade. There are still reptiles that arent available in large numbers wiithin the UK or availbale atall CB. As such, this requires WC/cf animals. WC animals are also needed to expand blood lines. 

As somong mentions earlier i don't agree with the current huge import of CF royals as thin IMO is simply for a money aspect and goes against what i belive. 

It it my belief that WC aniamls should only be sold to individuals that have at aleast som intention of breeding them. As it is through this breeding that we wil expand that randge of animals available CB, thus expanding the hobby. 

If it wasn't for WC reps only a few years ago we wouldn't have the CB corns, leos and beardies we have today.

jay


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

corns and ball pythons seem to be ubiqutous in the U.K. supply and demand period. there should be no demand for wc or cf in britain since everybody and his brother breeds them it seems. so why are emerald tree boas and others so expensive there? snake is a snake right? in indonesia they cf gtp's. and i bought mine for $200. it's not about anything more than affordability. how many out there have "dream snakes" that they can't afford? why is that? not enough on the market. corns and balls are an exception. if they get any cheaper then they lose their value. disposible. i can buy a ball for about 7 pounds british here cb!! that's too cheap. but you give me the cost of a gtp in britain? i got one(biak) for $200! somethings wrong ...


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Laura-LNV said:


> What really annoys me is when you see WC royals etc....there is an abundance of CB ones....so for the sake of a few quid its not worth getting...especially as with wild caught ones you need to treat for parasites and god knows what else...feeding probs etc...so why do it?!
> 
> other rarer stuff i guess people should wait until more CB ones are produced.


huh? how? how do you wait till captive bred ones are produced?


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

weeminx said:


> if you look....you will see i said "i wouldnt want to line this guys pockets" BEFORE he posted a large post containing the facts.
> 
> ive already apologised for ranting in the classifieds i still have my opinion.i still wouldnt ever buy wc.and as for the price of these "rare" lizards...i still dont agree with that either.£30 quid to me is awfly cheap for such beautiful and"rare"
> creatures.


I did say earlier but ill mention again...
They are rare in captivity...not in the wild.. they arent threatened or even estimated to be low atall in numbers, i checked. [although it wasnt difficult to guesstimate]


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Just to note, I wouldnt buy anything wild caught if it can be easily or even with effort obtained captive bred, with exception to as mentioned breeding/new blood once you are at a certain level.

I also think if your gona have one or two reptiles...well ur prolly gona go for a beardie, corn, leo etc anyway but if you just want a bit from the hobby then your unlikely to have a need to buy WC.
However some of us are followers.............. others are pioneers... ....and most of us are somewhere in between


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> one of the problems with the sheer volume of illegal stuff, and you wouldnt even realise. did you know that in some countries, exporation of animals is second only to the drug market for profits?


Statements as above are entirely unhelpful as they are simply not true, there is no creditable evidence to support such a claim and simply regurgitating spurious claims made by lunatic protectionist bodies does nothing to help keepers. 

The issue of wild caught reptiles is an emotive issues, however, Sustainable Utilisation is a conservation tool supported by virtually all genuine conservation bodies such as WWF etc.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

This might be of some interest:


*17th Annual UK Police and Customs Wildlife Enforcement Officers’ Conference *​


*Scottish** Police College, Tulliallan Castle*


*8-9 October 2005*​


_Presentation_​

Standing here looking out I have just had a flashback of a David Attenborough documentary, with the cute zebra standing on the riverbank, just about to jump in and swim across the crocodile infested river - now I know how that zebra felt!


Good morning and thank you for inviting me to speak here today. My name is Chris Newman and I am speaking on behalf of the Federation of British Herpetologists (FBH) and the Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association (REPTA). In other words sad buggers that deal with lowlifes…. perhaps we do have something in common! 

Back at the PAW conference in March of this year I said I was both pleased, and a little surprised, to be invited back to speak again considering when I spoke the previous year I intimated that those of you the ‘opposition’ (enforcement & government), were all “person’s of uncertain parentage” simply out to get us respectable animal keepers & traders!

Imagine my surprise to be invited to speak here today! 

Now, will I suffer the same fate as the zebra - or will I make it to the other bank and to the Promised Land? In this case the Promised Land would be a land where we have a true partnership for action against wildlife crime! 

_Time to take the plunge:_

The title I was given to speak upon was “Traders – their contribution to wildlife law enforcement”. - an interesting concept - can we contribute? 

Aren’t we animal keepers, traders all criminals?

Isn’t it a fact that we are all considered criminals by you the opposition (government & enforcement!). Isn’t it merely the case that some of us just haven’t been caught yet? 

That is how we the animal keepers and traders, believe we are perceived by you, the opposition, (government & enforcement).

In my first presentation to PAW in 2004 I said:

_“Now I must grasp the nettle and tell you what you may not want to hear. At the risk of being as popular as a rattlesnake in a lucky dip, now is the time to speak out and highlight the issues that face PAW, from the keepers’ perspective._

_PAW is at a junction in the road, does it turn into a one way street or does it turn into a two ‘way street’ as advocated by Jon Coote at least year’s PAW conference? That is a decision that must be made, and soon. As it stands today PAW is in danger of tearing its self apart.”_

Today we stand at that junction and within the next few months the decision will be made whether the animal keepers & traders continue to try and work to the ideal of PAW or if we walk away and go underground into the criminal world where you seem to believe we belong! 

Last weekend was the FBH conference, which concluded with an update and debate on the pending legislation that will affect us. This includes the Animal Welfare Bill, Dangerous Wild Animals Act, COTES, review of CITES article 8.2, to mention but a few.

Each one of these pieces of legislation sets out to further criminalise us animal keepers and traders. What benefit is there from our perspective? - None. All that we see is more and more Draconian legislation being heaped upon us without us being allowed to have any input into the consultation process.

There are now more are more ways in which animal keepers are criminalised and, unlike other crimes, there is a presumption of guilt rather than innocence. This flies in the face of British Justice which demands presumption of innocence. 

We are guilty unless we can prove our innocence.

What saddens me is that us respectable keepers and traders are not criminals, we are, or we try to be, upstanding, law abiding citizens.

Harping back to the 2004 PAW conference I said:

_*I say to you all - Customs & Excise - Police - DEFRA & PAW, the legitimate animal trader is not your enemy, they are your colleagues.*_

_*Legitimate animal keepers are not your enemies, they should be your allies.*_

*Let me make this crystal clear, the illegal trade in wildlife is both unacceptable and unhelpful to legitimate keepers and traders. We do not support wildlife crime.*

*But, but what is ‘wildlife crime’? Can anyone offer me a definitive definition of ‘wildlife crime’ – I suspect not.*

*To some the trade in any wildlife is a crime, to some the keeping of any animal in captivity is a crime. If that is your benchmark then we are all criminals.*

*I would suggest this should not be the bench mark. The law allows regulated trade in wildlife and the law allows us to keep companion animals. Therefore simply because we trade in wildlife and we keep animals we should not be condemned as criminals!*

*But you, the opposition do, or so it appears. Let me quote from the 2003 PAW video:*

*"Not all wildlife trade is banned and many products and animals themselves can be sold lawfully but the trade in endangered species is illegal and still goes on in our country today"*

At the time I made the point: 

_The trade in endangered species is neither illegal nor banned - it is regulated. For PAW to make such a fundamental error is unforgivable. _

Today that video is still available from the PAW website and you still brand us traders, us keepers as criminals.

COTES further reinforces this as we are all considered criminals unless we can prove our innocence! If we keep or trade in Annex B species we must be able to prove the animals, or the founder stock, was imported lawfully into the EU – an impossible task when you the opposition, (government) will not issue the paperwork we need to defend ourselves or prove our innocence.

Keepers across the country live in fear of that knock on the door. The knock when you the opposition, (government & enforcement), ably assisted by your colleagues from the Animal Police, burst in and remove someone’s loved and valued animals. 

All too frequently animals are seized never to be seen again by the keeper. Let us not forget that the keeper may well have committed no other offence, other than that of keeping animals. 

Fantasy? No, it happens – the case in Plymouth, to name but one incidence.

Now we regularly see the Animal Police (RSPCA), assisted by the police, enforcing their political policy against the sale of animals from pet shops. We see raids against shops that sell birds, under warrants issued to the police searching for evidence of the illegal trade in birds. 

We then see the police defer prosecution under the Wildlife & Countryside Act to the Animal Police (RSPCA) – why? 

I can only assume the police defer prosecution to the RSPCA because there is insufficient (or no evidence of an offence). 

As RSPCA prosecutions are private and not independently reviewed they can, as they often do, prosecute without any offence being committed. Such prosecutions are carried out for political and financial objectives. 

If further proof of our persecution is required then let’s look to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act - a deeply flawed piece of legislation which is wildly abused and misused. 

After twenty five years of the Act being abuse DEFRA finally conceded that it needed overhauling. Hurray we cried! 

The review started in 2000 and nearly six years later are we any closer to seeing this review come to fruition? No. Why - because the independent review conducted by Andrew Greenwood concluded that the DWAA was being imposed unlawfully, unreasonably and recommended sweeping changes - changes to the benefit of animal keepers. 
I asked at the 2003 PAW conference when we would see the review and recommendations implemented. I asked again in 2004 and again in 2005. All we have received is empty words and empty promises.

Now we see why, proposed implementation of Article 8.2 of CITES, with prohibition on keeping of some CITES listed species. 

Being forced to drop the unlawful regulation on the keeping of some small harmless primates under the DWAA, we see them now being picked up under other Draconian legislation just to placate the Barking Bunny Huggers, or Animal Rights Activists if you prefer. 

So we replace one piece of ill-conceived unworkable piece of legislation with another piece of ill-conceived unworkable bit of legislation. Brilliant, why didn’t I think of that!

Constantly we hear “the illegal trade in wildlife is second only in value to the drugs trade, worth 4 to 5 billion Dollars annually” Really, show me the evidence!

Show me the evidence that there is a huge illegal trade in wildlife for the pet industry. I don’t want to hear terms like “we believe”, “it is estimated” or “it is widely accepted”. I want facts not accusations.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

*We can all throw mud, but is it helpful?*

Customs are a little upset with me because I stated 90% of there seizures are unlawful or unwarranted but I believe that to be correct!

I believe that 90% of seizures by Customs are not really smuggled animals in the true sense, they are mistakes. Paperwork errors, packing errors, some silly bugger that can’t count – there are many paperwork mistakes that can be made. But how many are true attempts to smuggle?

I don’t know - do you?

We do not categories or record offences accurately, we chuck everything into to big box marked ‘wildlife crime’. Manner from heaven if you are a Barking Bunny Hugger, but a tad inconvenient for us respectable keepers and traders!

Laws, such as CITES are constantly updated, but do we the consumers get told? Not always. Often, dissemination of information from you, the opposition, is not as good as it could be – and we could do better by working together just on this one issue!

Offences may be committed through ignorance of the law and whilst ignorance is no defense in law it can be a damn good reason! *Let’s not move the goal posts without telling the players!*

Back in 2001 respectable keepers and traders were at the forefront of being bashed by the Barking Bunny Huggers (the antis) and you, the opposition and we were facing an uncertain future. 

I wrote a piece that was circulated throughout the herpetological community and I would just like to read the last paragraph:

_As the dinosaurs did not see the impending comet that signified there annihilation, perhaps we are blind to our potentially similar destiny. There is still time to fight those who want to stop the reptile fraternity, but it is short and we simply cannot afford to waste it with our petty differences. We don’t have to like each other to work together. What is important is that we all have a genuine interest and passion for our animals. Don’t let a few misguided individuals undermine all that we have done, all that we have achieved and all that we have learned. If we all fight together we can beat this......united we stand, divided we fall._

I think we can take parts of this message to the situation we have with PAW. We don’t have to like each other to work together. What is important is that we all have a genuine interest and passion for our animals, or to put it another way a genuine interest in working to eliminate wildlife crime.

What we do need is something in common, a common aim, and that aim should be to eliminate wildlife crime. 

It saddens me that we respectable keepers and respectable traders are at odds with you the opposition. This is not the way it should be - we have the same goals, why do we not seem to be able to find the common path!

Now, today, we are drinking in the last chance saloon, our glasses are near empty and we shall soon be wending our way home. 

We are at that crossroads I referred to earlier. Do we share the same path, or do we go our separate ways?

If as I hope, we can travel together it may not be an easy path, it will be a rocky one and there will be some stubbed toes on the way, but a little pain should not stop us from moving forward.

For the passed fifteen minutes I have been paddling like buggery to get to the other side of this river. Finally I’m at the slippery bank, will I make it or will some large scaly beast with big teeth (where’s Richard [Brunstrom]) drag me under the water at the last moment?

Mans’ greatest achievements have come from talking, his greatest failures from not. Can we and can PAW afford failure? 

I would suggest failure is a price that none of us can afford, for if we fail the AR Corporation will roll on in its expansionist program of wealth generation and will usurp your powers and our animals. 

Is that the future we want? Is that the future we deserve? Are we dinosaurs?

Thank you.







(PowerPoint background)

*Closing comments from passed presentations to PAW:-*

*2004*

Let us not dwell on the past, but let us learn from the mistakes, let us look to the future with wiser eyes. PAW is a partnership, a partnership for action against wildlife crime, let it be just that a partnership, not a dictatorship. The latter is only doomed to failure, and failure is a price that none of us can afford. Consultation not confrontation must be the way forward!

*2005*

Please, please listen to what I have said; it is not my intention to simply berate you, as enjoyable as that is. I am asking that our concerns, our legitimate concerns, be listened to and addressed. Keepers, traders and the authorities need not be at war, we should be a partnership – a Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime. However, partnerships must be based on trust - it is now time for that trust to be built.


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

oh..good read.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Chris_Newman, i hope you did actually read my original post, im not trying to sling mud, although i dont really agree with WC where CB is available, im not against WC for the purposes of providing CB. 

That fact i put was simply a comment on someone elses post, and something i heard on a very evenly balanced documentary. I cant remember the country it was based on now but i will try and remember. Unfortunatly it is true that a huge amount of illeagal exportation happens and its in those cases that the majority of horrible losses and mistreatment happens. Their governments dont stop the illeagal exportation because it is the backbone of their economy in some cases, how do you think the bushmeat industry thrives so? thtas illeagal too


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

reading what chris posted though, it looks like the amount of illegal exports may be somewhat overstated statistics wise


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Depends on how much they know about to an extent though... 

Interesting read though. It's funny but most of us in an idealogical and moral sense dislike WC, i dont like the idea of removing animals from their habitat and sticking it in a cage just for human amusement, but on the other hand, how else will we secure their future in a world that we have ravaged so much already? They predict for example, that for every km2 of the ocean floor, there is 1 undiscovered species. Think of the size of ocean floor, and thats a huge number. I worry that how many species do we destroy through ignorance before we even know they exist? We need WC for that purpose, so we can save those we do know about. I was thinking about trying to get some Red and ornate Gehyra to CB as to my knowledge its not been done in the UK yet, and yet they are a fascinating animal, but i think its going to work out that i cant afford it right now.

I think its really good Dean that you're getting into these WC species that we dont see often to try and breed them

EDIT: I remember the country was Bangladesh. Found the accompanying guardian article. The article was investigating how Al Queida cellsare providing buyers and transport for the animals and using native muslims to WC the animals. sOurse of extra money. It said that the profits of illeagal animal trade WORLDWIDE are second only drugs (out of illeagal trades that is, so not inc. oil etc). Crazy hey?! Obvs. that includes skins etc


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Yeh well... im a bit scared of looking into the eyes of a terrified lizard...that in itself scares me.. but as Exopet will have them a week first they should already to an extent have calmed down quite a bit.
Its gona be a mission but im really looking forward to it.

Wow...and I have the Fijis coming too  yay


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## Kellybee (Oct 13, 2006)

I think that ILLEGAL pet trades are a completely different subject, and one of more than morality and emotive opinions. I understand where you are coming from, but I kind of thought this was about whether hobbyists should keep wild caught animals as pets. I know I dont own anything illegal, and I also know if I walk into a reptile shop the chances of me finding anything that ISNT legal is quite slim. I am pretty confident my pals dont keep illegal reps either, maybe CITES (guilty as charged), but nothing WC that was illegally imported for the pet trade. I certainly dont have WC beardies in my shed or komodos in my barn. I DO have WC collareds, and WC scorpions. However I dont see scorpions as something capable of being traumatised by life in captivity, they are all easily adapted species. Collareds are really popular, and are not bred in the UK like Beardies or Corns are, they aren't the brightest of buttons either. Not that that matters, but they dont seem to be suffering, they are very well adapted, get their livefood on a silver platter, have no threat of predators, and are parasite free..... PLUS they are breeding like billyo. They arent illegal, cites listed, or endangered. Therefore, if my 5 WC lizards are the beginning of a new generation of CB collareds, and my experience with those WC lizards has given me the knowledge and experience to get OTHER people breeding, then that can only be a good thing right?


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