# Crested geckos, have we gone too far?



## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

I have own cresties for a while now and originally I was considering breeding next year. Now before you all jump down my throat keyboard in hand I would just like to say a few things.

Now firstly I like to point out how much their popularity has grown, in only 15 years they have gone from just a few hundred individuals to thousands upon thousands. Now this means that there is a very limited genepool to begin, now as we move on through the years and breeding projects increase to produce the most "desirable morph" I feel that we are further decreasing that genepool, now there are some more considerate breeders out there who never breed and individuals from the same parents, but there are a hell of a lot that do, and unfortunately I feel that they are "polluting" the population of crested geckos in order to make the most money from a pair of so called "high end" morphs.

Even more unfortunate is that they will then sell the hatchlings to an unsuspecting buyer who is unaware of the true genetics of the individual, this individual could then go on to forward/ develop the morph and many generations down the line we start seeing visual problems. Recently I have seen one such deformity become more and more common, that of the extra toe. This may seem harmless enough but what we don't see it any genetic deformities within the gecko, this can be easily controlled by retireing that gecko and only keeping it as a pet, but again this is where the breeder's who want to make a quick quid decide to breed from this individual, causing even further problems further down the line. I have also noticed an increase in birth deformities. 

Another thing I ought to mention is the price, originally the price per gecko was very high, more recently the market has become saturated with geckos who are considered "plain" and so go months without going to a new home, with prices coming down to as low as £30, surely this isn't looking too good. 

I can't help but wonder, have we gone too far?

This is not a bashing of crestie breeders as I know of many who are very responsible with their breeding projects and genetics of their breeders. I am very passionate about crested gecko's and it is a shame to see this sort of thing becoming more and more common.

I would like to know peoples opinions on this matter :2thumb:


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

ive worked hard for well over a yr now(not bred yet) to get 3 very different females and a completely unrelated male.

I have a olive dalmation, a harlequin dalmation and a yellow dalmation, all from different areas of the country and with parent originating from different countries, yet now im questioning if im going to breed them myself.

The gene pool is clearly limited, but not as much as most think, i hear rumours of big uk leo breeders getting hold of wild caughts and selling them off under the guise of captive bred.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

Slurm said:


> ive worked hard for well over a yr now(not bred yet) to get 3 very different females and a completely unrelated male.
> 
> I have a olive dalmation, a harlequin dalmation and a yellow dalmation, all from different areas of the country and with parent originating from different countries, yet now im questioning if im going to breed them myself.
> 
> The gene pool is clearly limited, but not as much as most think, i hear rumours of big uk leo breeders getting hold of wild caughts and selling them off under the guise of captive bred.


Now you are a prime example of a good breeder :2thumb: but it seems to ba mostly breeders who are in it for a quick quid  

I've just realised a visible trait which shows how these genes seem to pollute the whole population, dalmation spotting :gasp: now it is very hard to get "clean" cresties (no spots)

Thanks for your imput :no1:


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

wierd that, check mine out, its got 2 different coulour eyes and spots two


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> wierd that, check mine out, its got 2 different coulour eyes and spots two
> image


Wow cateracts :gasp: Actually today I saw a thread on another forum about a crestie someone bought, later noticing that one of its ears was "scaled over" like it wasn't there O_0


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## mondogenerator (May 6, 2009)

*my £0.02*

i have to agree.

IF i get another crestie, i have to say i would love a so-called _'plain'_ olive, or even olive brindle, or bicolour. 

I have a lovely harley male red at the moment, which i got from Wohic, bred from a plain red mother and harley dad if i remember correctly. However, if i sought to get another i would have to say that i would avoid the harley/pinstripe brigade and try and seek out a plain/bicolour/brindle, and if i were to breed at any point, then it would be a necessity for me.

*ON that note, anyone who has a taste for the 'plainer' specimins of this lovely reptile, feel free to add me as friend (hehe especially if you happen to have any hatchlings coming up in the future meeting my requirements!!!)*

:notworthy:


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Crestie Chris said:


> Wow cateracts :gasp: Actually today I saw a thread on another forum about a crestie someone bought, later noticing that one of its ears was "scaled over" like it wasn't there O_0


she's healthy and came from a very loving home from unrelated perants (i think, not 100%), wierd eyes though, thats why i called it odd ball pmsl.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

lol i selected the leos(i ment cresties, lol) as i like spots, as i typed i did think it was funny, but i bought 13 leos(lol and again), got 5 females.

2 with no spots, i sold one and still have the other but shes too small for breeding next yr.


i got 4 from a guy on here, all harleys, of these 2 had no spots(males so i sold them), 2 had spots 1 male, the other one of my females.

another 4 from someone different on here(100 miles away), the were olive buckskins, 2 females 2 males, only one of the females had spots(i kept her)

of the other 5 only 2 or 3 had spots, i kept the sandstone dalamation.

So i kept what i liked the look of, my male tiger from someone from erac at norwich show has no spots whatsoever.


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## ladybird (Sep 9, 2006)

I got all my cresties from different places, so far all the babies are healthy as well. No deformities or oddities whatsoever!
Also I'm not selling babies for less than £50. I think some people just want rid of them quick so they push the price down further and further, but it crashes the market. Some people have no patience!!


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> she's healthy and came from a very loving home from unrelated perants (i think, not 100%), wierd eyes though, thats why i called it odd ball pmsl.


I think I have seen this once before on an american forum :S but at least he has a loving home with you :no1:


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## Sweetcorn (Aug 2, 2008)

I can see where you are coming from but unfortunately there are always going to be bad breeders with any animal. This has been my first year breeding mine and I am keeping detailed records of each pairing and their babies, which will be passed onto anyone buying one of my babies for future records. Only two of my 7 adults are related (sisters). 

The other problem is that many cresties are bought and sold quite frequently eg if they mature and are not the sex wanted. So one crestie could end up going to many different homes in it's lifetime and eventually no way to trace where they originally came from.


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

wow that was too hard to read so i'll just say
HA HA you put leo's in a creasty post tee hee.
i bought mine as a normal and it turned out spotty with different colour eye's, can you even buy normals nowadays?


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2009)

Sweetcorn said:


> I can see where you are coming from but unfortunately there are always going to be bad breeders with any animal. This has been my first year breeding mine and I am keeping detailed records of each pairing and their babies, which will be passed onto anyone buying one of my babies for future records. Only two of my 7 adults are related (sisters).
> 
> The other problem is that many cresties are bought and sold quite frequently eg if they mature and are not the sex wanted. So one crestie could end up going to many different homes in it's lifetime and eventually no way to trace where they originally came from.


My Dylan actually passed hands a few times before reaching me (he was only 4 months when I got him), this is his permanent home now, but after some research I found out his origins :2thumb:


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

in the crestie world what is a "normal"?


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Slurm said:


> is the crestie world what is a "normal"?


 exactly, can you even get a CB normal?


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> wow that was too hard to read so i'll just say
> HA HA you put leo's in a creasty post tee hee.
> i bought mine as a normal and it turned out spotty with different colour eye's, can you even buy normals nowadays?


Oh yeah, but hard, purple-vixen has a spotless colony of about 25? (not sure but somewhere around that value) but she spend lots of time hunting spotless cresties) I think she has all the ones in the UK  

The problem with dal spotting is that it is caused by a dominant allele which is very hard to remove from a bloodline once established :S 

saw you vid btw, I actually :rotfl:'d


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## inkyjoe (Mar 31, 2008)

Mental isnt it. Im trying to sell a pair of cresties for my friend, and as i was looking through the classifieds, it seemed that every other ad was for cresties. I sold a group this time last year, for a lot of money, less than 5 minutes after posting the ad! Dont people want their cresties anymore? they make such good pets. is this the curse of the bearded dragon again, which was a high end lizard 10, 15 years ago, now you can get adults for under £15, it breaks my heart a bit.
As for inbreeding, that happens a lot with other reptiles, thats how bloodlines are secured, but other reptiles have the advantage of having a much bigger gene pool to come from in the first place.
Id hate to see cresties end up as ugly mutant spastics that nobody wants, theyre just too easy to breed, especially if you want to keep a group of them


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Crestie Chris said:


> Oh yeah, but hard, purple-vixen has a spotless colony of about 25? (not sure but somewhere around that value) but she spend lots of time hunting spotless cresties) I think she has all the ones in the UK
> 
> The problem with dal spotting is that it is caused by a dominant allele which is very hard to remove from a bloodline once established :S
> 
> saw you vid btw, I actually :rotfl:'d


 pmsl, she only has a couple of spots on her but how wierd is it that every cresty is a morph of this or a morph of that, try finding a normal cresty in the classifieds, i don't think there is many, they are all alleged morphs.


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

inkyjoe said:


> Mental isnt it. Im trying to sell a pair of cresties for my friend, and as i was looking through the classifieds, it seemed that every other ad was for cresties. I sold a group this time last year, for a lot of money, less than 5 minutes after posting the ad! Dont people want their cresties anymore? they make such good pets. is this the curse of the bearded dragon again, which was a high end lizard 10, 15 years ago, now you can get adults for under £15, it breaks my heart a bit.
> As for inbreeding, that happens a lot with other reptiles, thats how bloodlines are secured, but other reptiles have the advantage of having a much bigger gene pool to come from in the first place.
> Id hate to see cresties end up as ugly mutant spastics that nobody wants, theyre just too easy to breed, especially if you want to keep a group of them


 Tokays are the way forward, they are for elite owners as most see the "aggressive" in the care sheet and forget about em, i have loads of em and my collection is ever expanding, i love tokays they are so underated.

SORRY CHRIS BACK TO CRESTY'S.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> pmsl, she only has a couple of spots on her but how wierd is it that every cresty is a morph of this or a morph of that, try finding a normal cresty in the classifieds, i don't think there is many, they are all alleged morphs.


It's also because there is no market for them, people have to sell them off dirty cheap, as people are more interested in the most expensive morph they can afford


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> Tokays are the way forward, they are for elite owners as most see the "aggressive" in the care sheet and forget about em, i have loads of em and my collection is ever expanding, i love tokays they are so underated.
> 
> SORRY CHRIS BACK TO CRESTY'S.


Ahahah that would be the little tokay going mental in your skull again?
I like your little tokay rants, they got me interested in tokays


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

and this is why i didnt breed last year and i dont intend on breeding this year


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Crestie Chris said:


> It's also because there is no market for them, people have to sell them off dirty cheap, as people are more interested in the most expensive morph they can afford


 this is what i don't understand, WHY?, 
as an example take the tokay, one of the most beautifull geckos i have ever seen and they are about 30 quid adverage price,
then there is a calico morph, its basically white with brown stains and they charge in exccess of 800 quid and it's as ugly as sin itself, it was beautifull when it was normal so why make it uglier.
the same applies with crestys, don't get me wrong i love my female with her wierd eyes but other than that i think she is normal, i have been told she is a partial dalmation flame, SHE'S NORMAL, nothing superduper, at the end of the day they all eat sleep and sh*t the same so they are normal.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> this is what i don't understand, WHY?,
> as an example take *the tokay, one of the most beautifull geckos i have ever seen* and they are about 30 quid adverage price,
> then there is a calico morph, its basically white with brown stains and they charge in exccess of 800 quid and it's as ugly as sin itself, it was beautifull when it was normal so why make it uglier.
> the same applies with crestys, don't get me wrong i love my female with her wierd eyes but other than that i think she is normal, i have been told she is a partial dalmation flame, SHE'S NORMAL, nothing superduper, at the end of the day they all eat sleep and sh*t the same so they are normal.


Got to love your tokay references :rotfl:

I see what you are saying though,I think its the exclusivity, e.g. the calico is rare, so people want one to feel more exclusive if that makes sense


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## sarasin (Dec 8, 2007)

Sweetcorn said:


> I can see where you are coming from but unfortunately there are always going to be bad breeders with any animal. This has been my first year breeding mine and I am keeping detailed records of each pairing and their babies, which will be passed onto anyone buying one of my babies for future records. Only two of my 7 adults are related (sisters).
> 
> The other problem is that many cresties are bought and sold quite frequently eg if they mature and are not the sex wanted. So one crestie could end up going to many different homes in it's lifetime and eventually no way to trace where they originally came from.


I agree here, I have kept and bred them for over 10 years, and keep records of parents and offspring. It is sad when you see one you have sold being sold again and sometimes more than once, then where ever they end up the new owner wont have any background on them.
Getting onto the 'normal' (buckskin) cresty, people just dont seem to want them anymore. I have a few buckskins, one of which is my old 14 years plus female 'Spice' she is an F1 so her offspring are a good chance for people to get some fresh blood into their collection. But as I said people want the 'high end' morphs. Interestingly Spice and her partner (bucskin male) started producing reds about 3 years ago, some of which I have held onto. I do breed different morphs myself because I like to see what I can produce from my own breeding. This year I was thrilled to have produced my very first full pinner from a partial pin that I had bred myself.


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Crestie Chris said:


> Got to love your tokay references :rotfl:
> 
> I see what you are saying though,I think its the exclusivity, e.g. the calico is rare, so people want one to feel more exclusive if that makes sense


 PMSL another tokay elbow'd in LMFAO, i know what you mean by the exclusivity factor but i think if people wher honest which one is the most prettyest
UGLY BOY HERE

OR

LTTTLE MISS PRETTY


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> PMSL another tokay elbow'd in LMFAO, i know what you mean by the exclusivity factor but i think if people wher honest which one is the most prettyest
> [URL=http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:WZfxP20wZ12jxM:http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s235/EmeraldExotics/CalicoTokay111copy.jpg]image[/URL]UGLY BOY HERE
> 
> OR
> ...


The first pic looks like a white tokay was chewing on a black biro :lol2:

I know what you mean though, There always seems to be a hype with "white" morphs


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Crestie Chris said:


> The first pic looks like a white tokay was chewing on a black biro :lol2:
> 
> I know what you mean though, There always seems to be a hype with "white" morphs


 yeah i don't get it myself, don't get me wrong i have payed loads for NORMALS with strange head markings but not morphs just natural markings that have appeared. i thought the idea was to keep something exotic and what most morphs seem to be are man made mutations.
i preffer them as nature intended, the mrs loves the leo morphs though, i think mother nature did a awesome job, why spoil it in my opinion.


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## Sweetcorn (Aug 2, 2008)

sarasin said:


> I agree here, I have kept and bred them for over 10 years, and keep records of parents and offspring. It is sad when you see one you have sold being sold again and sometimes more than once, then where ever they end up the new owner wont have any background on them.
> Getting onto the 'normal' (buckskin) cresty, people just dont seem to want them anymore. I have a few buckskins, one of which is my old 14 years plus female 'Spice' she is an F1 so her offspring are a good chance for people to get some fresh blood into their collection. But as I said people want the 'high end' morphs. Interestingly Spice and her partner (bucskin male) started producing reds about 3 years ago, some of which I have held onto. I do breed different morphs myself because I like to see what I can produce from my own breeding. This year I was thrilled to have produced my very first full pinner from a partial pin that I had bred myself.


I find it so sad that babies get passed around so much. I got my girl Polka from you last year along with who the parents were and her date of birth. She's quite plain during the day but fires up to a lovely chocolate colour. To me she is just as beautiful as my super dal girl. Mine are all pets first and foremost because I love them all so much and thoroughly enjoy keeping them.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i`d take a buckskin or a red over a harley anyday : victory:

the plains are far prettier, i just havnt seen many available


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Crestie Chris said:


> Oh yeah, but hard, purple-vixen has a spotless colony of about 25? (not sure but somewhere around that value) but she spend lots of time hunting spotless cresties)


How on earth did people ever get the idea that spotless plain cresties are the only "natural" normal cresties?

Got a few words for this;

Natural variation in phenotypes.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> How on earth did people ever get the idea that spotless plain cresties are the only "natural" normal cresties?
> 
> Got a few words for this;
> 
> Natural variation in phenotypes.


I think the problem with spots is that they are caused by a dominant allele, so without trying to control the dal allele we could end up with a lot of the population being spotty :S


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Crestie Chris said:


> I think the problem with spots is that they are caused by a dominant allele, so without trying to control the dal allele we could end up with a lot of the population being spotty :S


Do wild cresties have spots?

I don't get why would you have any need or desire to control the dalmatian gene anyway, if you feel that breeding for particular morphs is decreasing the genepool?


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I AGREE!!


I see people selling babies with 6 toes saying its fine for them to go into the gene pool... the mother passes the trait on genetically.. I think it was a female mum with 6 toes .. anyway at least one parent has the 6 toe thing going on.. and wonky eyes.. one larger than the other.. thats becoming more common these days too.. but peopel still breed saying Oh but they seem fine.. hmmmmm. I see people breeding substandard cresties regarding health. MBD females and severely underweight crested geckos. Even so called "BIG" breeders.. with terrible set ups.. just because someone is a BIG breeder ( Big does not mean quality it only means quantity) does not mean their husbandry and habitation practices are remotely ok.. The excuses I hear time and time again is..but the females produce eggs every year so its fine.. WTF... yes what a cop-out answer that is.

I am not breeding any of my crested geckos except one pair again. There is no point producing generic cresties and churning them out. Making threads saying job lot of 30 cresties 25 quid each. I am only breeding the nice extreme spotty girl I have from biohazard ( anna from Edinburgh) . She is a stunning wee animal ( not anna the crestie :mf_dribble with a ridiculous amount of spots and is a very gentle calm crested gecko too. Even then I would only breed her once every 2 years as I want her to be able to rest inbetween. Irrespective of who I like or dislike personally I have great respect for certain keepers and breeders I have come across in my time.

In the 1990s there was very little reptile orientated advice places or up to date equipment.. people used aquarium Uv and lighting. However nowadays there is no need to make a half bodge job of anything. No need to use substandard husbandry practices or crowd animals into the one tank regardless of age weight and size. So why do people do it?? why do they overbreed... why do they cram groups into the same tanks to the point people cringe when they see photos.. ??

I think the answer is obvious.. because the more you breed the bigger you get until you can claim the title of BIG breeder then suddenly people who dont know you think.. WOW.. BIG breeder.. great keeper.. which frankly is a pile of poo.. oh and of course if its for money making how can optimum level of care come into it.. it simply cant.. but the BEST you can manage should.. and I see al the time FAR from that..I know with good proper care a 2 year old female reaches weights of between 35 and 55 grams very easily.. and thats not feeding daily after 25 grams. Thats feeding 3 times a wee once they hit 25 grams once live twoce repashy two part. i also let my cresties enjoy Manuka honey and fruit for treats.. much like you would let a beardie etc enjoy a waxie or two.


I never kept reptiles only to breed.. I have stunning animals I wont ever breed again because I see it as entirley pointless. If the spotty female produces stunning babies I would be happy for those to go into well kept well cared for homes. If they dont sell well I wont bother breeding her again as Im not going to be screaming out in classifieds 25 pounds a hatchling if I cant sell them.Patterns and colours matter when it comes to cresties because people like art.. and visuals.. yet I still adore the single coloured ones and the dals the best. People make up new morph names every second week to make their animal SOUND more attractive.

I am never done seeing the red harely label yet the animal has the merest tinge of reddish brown.. its just stupid..if a crestie fits into a morph type fine if not then why push it??
Although subjectiveness is responsible for some of the confusion as there are no definitive pure crestie morphs in the scientific sense.. only poly-morphic visual cresties.. who knows what they carry to pass on really?Again its some bizarre need for exclusivity and prestige that you have a crested gecko of some worth because of its label . This is interesting, if for example someone had a jet black crested gecko that was truly jet black.. its rarity makes it intersting and desirable but not the label however I am sure if the label was Midnight.. suddenly dark brown cresties would become partial-midnights or something just as ridiculous.

I appreciate people sometimes need a morph label to work out if it fits their ideal and thats fine but it gets silly.. instead of a Harlequin it becomes.. An extreme harely with potholes and fringing and partial pinstripe and and and a Head with eyes ( LOL) .. you see what I mean.. because of this ability to warp and manipulate the names peopel find cresties a cash-bucket.. if they can label their animals as something MORE.. it means more cash..I think its a shame.. but was always inevitable that it would happen that any animal that is popular and cute becomes overbred. I think when I first started keeping cresties I wanted to understand the morph types.. Morph being the wrong term anyway cresties . I soon realised it was more a Theatre production of nonsense than a reality. I was caught up in it for a while.. I admit, I soon realised I was being stupid.. and stopped.

A morh type in crested geckos for me is a crested gecko thet fits exactly and specifically into its type.. .. the rest are just cresties.
Breeding for breedings sake will always happen.. but with cresties it has exploded very quickly and overlabelling of morphs is an issue too.
Both of these problems together has produced a weird market for hatchlings. One I cant be bothered with anymore.

I would rather be a good keeper than a noted breeder. if that means not breeding at all then so be it.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

toyah said:


> Do wild cresties have spots?
> 
> I don't get why would you have any need or desire to control the dalmatian gene anyway, if you feel that breeding for particular morphs is decreasing the genepool?


 
yes wild cresties have spots.. 

perhaps not as many as some of the captive ones but the spotty visual ones are there..


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

sparkle said:


> *I see people selling babies with 6 toes saying its fine for them to go into the gene pool... the mother passes the trait on genetically.. I think it was a female mum with 6 toes .. *anyway at least one parent has the 6 toe thing going on.. and wonky eyes.. one larger than the other.. thats becoming more common these days too.. but peopel still breed saying Oh but they seem fine.. hmmmmm. I see people breeding substandard cresties regarding health.


The above is the one reason I got into genetics.

I have far too much to say on the subject, very strong emotions about this and to be honest it f**ks me right off big time.

Anyone that says the following.... I have no time for, and it is said far too often... 

It doesn't take a lot to research, learn about your animals through interaction and asking questions...
*
Breeding weight for a female - 30-34g Fine (IT IS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Floppy tail is just a minor thing, breeding her will be fine (IT IS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Six toes? Pah, there is no research it's causing problems, and if you had a baby with six toes, would you tell it to never have kids...

(WTF DOES HUMANS HAVE TO DO WITH THIS YOU **** IT AIN'T NORMAL!!!!!!)*

It angers me to a point my blood boils.

As for the genepool decreasing, yes it is.

I have spent nearly a year carefully choosing the ones I would like to breed, and the other 12 are my pets. 

Damn I could go on, but I won't, I have a few threads where GlasgowGecko, Saedcantes and Red9 have all expressed their scientific and research knowledge...

Ffs... What happened to good old common sense and most of all...

Our love and respect for the animals we breed...


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/358479-genetic-disorders-crested-gecko-six.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/292043-crestied-geckos-vs-nutrients-vitamins-2.html

Just some reading for you... 

Sorry I get so angry, it just brings me to tears sometimes when people are so bloody stupid...

xxx


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

purple-vixen said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/358479-genetic-disorders-crested-gecko-six.html
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/292043-crestied-geckos-vs-nutrients-vitamins-2.html
> 
> ...


Thanks for the linkage :2thumb: don't worry about getting angry, it's good to see that you are passionate about your reps :no1:


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

sparkle said:


> I AGREE!!
> 
> 
> I see people selling babies with 6 toes saying its fine for them to go into the gene pool... the mother passes the trait on genetically.. I think it was a female mum with 6 toes .. anyway at least one parent has the 6 toe thing going on.. and wonky eyes.. one larger than the other.. thats becoming more common these days too.. but peopel still breed saying Oh but they seem fine.. hmmmmm. I see people breeding substandard cresties regarding health. MBD females and severely underweight crested geckos. Even so called "BIG" breeders.. with terrible set ups.. just because someone is a BIG breeder ( Big does not mean quality it only means quantity) does not mean their husbandry and habitation practices are remotely ok.. The excuses I hear time and time again is..but the females produce eggs every year so its fine.. WTF... yes what a cop-out answer that is.
> ...


Thanks for replying sparkle :no1: I was interested to see your opinion on this


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

sparkle said:


> yes wild cresties have spots..
> 
> perhaps not as many as some of the captive ones but the spotty visual ones are there..


I suspected they must have unless it was a mutation that appeared after they were brought into captivity ... so if someone is breeding just for genetic diversity then what does it actually matter if it has spots or not? Surely trying to remove the spots in future generations is actually limiting the genepool more than just accepting the spottiness, if genetic diversity is your main reason for breeding ...

Personally I only really like spotted or very pale geckos, and they're the ones I buy and will hopefully one day breed. I wonder if my dislike for harlies and fires and those types is partially because I don't really "get" what makes them one or other description :lol2:


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Hey Guys,

Well I remember starting a thread like this a little while ago, which is linked below:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/341185-inbreeding-have-we-gone-too.html

It probably covers many of the same points, but is worth a read for those who haven't.

My problem, as many of you probably know, is that the relative population size of Crested geckos in captivity (the genepool if you will) is very small. This is due to a small number of founder individuals, and so there is no way around it (not quite true but I suspect importing WC individuals in large numbers is not going to be greeted with rounds of applause). This means that simply choosing individuals from different breeders at opposite ends of the country (or other countries for that matter) does NOT guarantee they are unrelated. We need to move away from thinking that inbreeding is mating between siblings.

IF you breed two animals and the resulting offspring exhibit reduced fitness, you MUST purge the system (this does not mean termination, but they should NEVER be bred). This is the only way to get passed it.

As for these suggested 'bad' breeders. This is complete fiction. With such a restricted genepool, you have NO idea about what deleterious alleles your animal is carrying, or which are already fixed. For this reason you are running a risk of comparable magnitude by breeding any two animals together.
(This comment refers only to the practice of 'inbreeding').

To the OP, I would love to see the evidence that Dalmatian spotting has been proved to be Dominant (using simple inheritance).

Andy


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## ginnerone (Aug 2, 2009)

Firstly, sorry to sparkle and purple_vixen as i din't read there full post's as they were so darn long but take comfort in knowing they are both experienced and respected breeders so there fore are very knowledgable on the subject so there opinion is valid and respected.
the only reason i didn't read the full post is because i don't intend breeding my cresty/s but rest assured if i was to buy another it would be from some like these two who genuinly love their animals rather than just out to make a few quid, although i dare say the money is a nice side effect.


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

Crestie Chris said:


> Thanks for the linkage :2thumb: don't worry about getting angry, it's good to see that you are passionate about your reps :no1:


Phew...

I'm glad someone realises... I am very passionate about my geckos, and their health, all thanks to the help of people on here, for the genetics I would strongly recommend GlasgowGecko, he is fantastic.

Sparkle also knows her stuff, she is a gem 

FFs, I nearly cried when I couldn't help my little crestie shed, then with determination and soft coaxing of warm wet tissue and careful handling, she was all shiney and new 

xXx


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Well I remember starting a thread like this a little while ago, which is linked below:
> 
> ...


This is exactly my point, stop when you notice something is not right...


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

ginnerone said:


> Firstly, sorry to sparkle and purple_vixen as i din't read there full post's as they were so darn long but take comfort in knowing they are both experienced and respected breeders so there fore are very knowledgable on the subject so there opinion is valid and respected.
> the only reason i didn't read the full post is because i don't intend breeding my cresty/s but rest assured if i was to buy another it would be from some like these two who genuinly love their animals rather than just out to make a few quid, although i dare say the money is a nice side effect.


Thank you :blush: Although I would still always recommend others before me when it comes to stuff like this, I have pages of personal research typed up at home, and thanks to Glasgowgecko, it makes sense to me...

x

As for money,

I'm not really in it for the money, aside for the costs of keeping and looking after them properly, I want to breed healthy, great looking cresties.

All of mine I aim to grow on to sub adults with a decent weight before they leave my care... It's the way I want to work it... So if I can't afford to keep 12 babies in the house until they are 6-8 months old, then I won't breed. End.


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Some good reading here 

I think the above are 100% right. Breeding from animals with genetic problems (such as the 6 toes, funny eyes) when there is such a small gene pool to start with is folly.

As for breeding age, you mentioned anger at people trying to breed sub-35g femals PV.

I am just wondering if you have been aware of, or indeed read the recent threads over on the captive bred forum in the gecko section?

If not you should really have a read - Id love to see your opinions on some of the methods people there are using... (groups of two + males being housed together, upto 50 hatchlings housed together etc..)


Personally, being new to cresties, I have made every effort to ensure that the cresties we have collected are not closly related - but I apreceate with a small genetic pool there could be problems.

I hope to breed them when they are ready - but I will only every have small numbers, and If I find myself unable to find good homes then I will keep the ones I have and split the groups up to prevent further breeding.

I am also with sparkle when it comes to putting a name of a morph to a crestie. I see so many flames in the classifieds being advertised as harleys, but there you go!


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

excession said:


> Some good reading here
> 
> I think the above are 100% right. Breeding from animals with genetic problems (such as the 6 toes, funny eyes) when there is such a small gene pool to start with is folly.
> 
> ...


Oh I read them, I don't always post and until now, wouldn't really voice my opinion.

Personally, if people want to house two males together, that is up to them, I can't stop them, i believe it is not the best method, as how can you monitor them day and night?

BUT in some circumstances, even I am not narrowminded enough to not believe it's fine, afterall they manage in the wild. 

As for breeding, this is very much my opinion, and I truly believe after a lot of research that why should you breed a female at 30g?

Advised, the weight is at least 36g, even then, personal preference, I prefer my females to be more towards 38g.

During breeding, they tend to lose anywhere between 4 & 8g. This could take the female right down to 22g. This is not healthy or good for the female as she needs all the strength to producs healthy eggs. If you want to best "livestock" don't you keep the breeders to optimum?

That's my argument. It's a very simple, probably boring argument, but in the last two months two people have asked me about breeding and said they were going to breed their females at 32g... I disagree with this, not everyone will.

Thanks for pointing that out excession  

As for housing 50+ babies together. That's for their research, their preferences, just because I want to house mine individually doesn't make me right or them right, I just strongly agree that by housing them individually or even in twos, they get such a better start in life, in my own theorem.

Ought to go now, I'll get shot at work :blush: I just love discussing this, there is always so much to be learned....

x


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Well I remember starting a thread like this a little while ago, which is linked below:
> 
> ...


 

:notworthy::thumb:

( the wee emoticons put across how I feel about the red highlighted text more than my words ever could!)


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

toyah said:


> I suspected they must have unless it was a mutation that appeared after they were brought into captivity ... so if someone is breeding just for genetic diversity then what does it actually matter if it has spots or not? Surely trying to remove the spots in future generations is actually limiting the genepool more than just accepting the spottiness, if genetic diversity is your main reason for breeding ...
> 
> Personally I only really like spotted or very pale geckos, and they're the ones I buy and will hopefully one day breed. I wonder if my dislike for harlies and fires and those types is partially because I don't really "get" what makes them one or other description :lol2:


IM pretty much the same.. plain or spotty.. I adore my other ones for different reasons.. personality.. cheeky behaviour etc...

However visually the spotty dotty ones do it for me :no1:


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## suey (Aug 21, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> IF you breed two animals and the resulting offspring exhibit reduced fitness, you MUST purge the system (this does not mean termination, but they should NEVER be bred). This is the only way to get passed it.


Well i can't second that as it's already been done, i'll fourth it though! ?

If this thread can make people stop and think and care for their animals better than it is worth it. But realistically there are always going to those that are just going to keep breeding their animals at 25gms, in whatever condition they see fit, and weakening the gene pool and the health of their animals, regardless of any genetic deffects that may be passed on. There is no way i can see of stopping them.

Don't get me wrong i'm not blase about it, as anyone who had read my comments on CB will attest to :blush: But knowing there are so many good caring crestie keepers out there makes a big difference.


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Me asking a stupid question here...

Is it still permited to export WC Cresties? Or is it fully restricted?


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## Sweetcorn (Aug 2, 2008)

The spottys definately do it for me too. All my cresties are housed separately except for two females that I have no plans to breed from. I only do one male to one female for breeding and then he goes back to his exo. All my girls are over 40 grams but I don't intend to breed them all just because I can!!!! All my hatchlings are housed separately too and are growing really nicely because of this in my opinion. I want them to have the best start possible so that potential owners don't have any feeding problems etc.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2009)

excession said:


> Me asking a stupid question here...
> 
> Is it still permited to export WC Cresties? Or is it fully restricted?


No not anymore


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

excession said:


> Me asking a stupid question here...
> 
> Is it still permited to export WC Cresties? Or is it fully restricted?


Nope, not allowed anymore, but I do plan on going to visit New Caledonia one day to see them in their natural habitat... 



Sweetcorn said:


> The spottys definately do it for me too. All my cresties are housed separately except for two females that I have no plans to breed from. I only do one male to one female for breeding and then he goes back to his exo. All my girls are over 40 grams but I don't intend to breed them all just because I can!!!! All my hatchlings are housed separately too and are growing really nicely because of this in my opinion. I want them to have the best start possible so that potential owners don't have any feeding problems etc.


I am so with you there, out of all my cresties, most of my females over 1 year are over 36g, all of my males are hitting 38g-44g, but I am only looking at breeding one pair next year. 

Just because you have them, doesn't mean you have to breed them. All of mine are classed as pets, and get treated as such, I am a big softie, good thing I don't have a life... Couldn't afford one anyway :blush: :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Sweetcorn (Aug 2, 2008)

purple-vixen said:


> Nope, not allowed anymore, but I do plan on going to visit New Caledonia one day to see them in their natural habitat...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is this life thing I keep hearing about :Na_Na_Na_Na: I think it must be totally overated. I'm much happier sitting with my animals...don't think I want this life thing :lol2:


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## gav15 (Jan 9, 2009)

my crestie is probably what is considered 'plain' or 'normal' , apart from his two dalmation spots one on his back and one between his eyes, lol.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> .....simply choosing individuals from different breeders at opposite ends of the country (or other countries for that matter) does NOT guarantee they are unrelated. We need to move away from thinking that inbreeding is mating between siblings.


just need to be clear on a few things.

If i got my cresties from completely different areas of the country, their parents came from different countries and they are all completely different colours and morphs im pretty confident ive done the best i can to keep the genes are varied and diverse as possible.

Granted its not garanteed, but its gotta be better than getting them all from the same breeder and breeding them together.

With any animal of the same species there is always a chance of inbreeding.

Just seems an odd thing to say, so Andy how do you suggest we go about ensuring genetic diversity??? i really would like to know how i could of done better, or are you saying i wasted my time and shouldnt of bothered.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Slurm said:


> Just seems an odd thing to say, so Andy how do you suggest we go about ensuring genetic diversity??? i really would like to know how i could of done better, or are you saying i wasted my time and shouldnt of bothered.


Well I wouldn't say you wasted your time, but I would also say that it has not guaranteed you have enhanced your genetic diversity. We really have no idea what (if any) mutations have become fixed as a result of inbreeding in a restricted genepool. Further to this can you be sure (or anyone for this matter) that the breeder(s) that are responsible for your animals come from a population that has been purged of reduced fitness individuals?

What would I have done differently? Well, I probably wouldn't have gone to so much trouble, but I would monitor the offspring closely for signs of reduced fitness. This was really my point. People are suggesting that our problems with inbreeding depression are linked to 'bad breeders' breeding full siblings, but this isn't the case. 

Heavy selection has been demonstrated to purge inbreeding depression and overcome the need for genetic diversity (to a point).

Buying from another country, from a heavily selected population, and pairing it with a heavily selected individual from this country may be the best way forward, athough then you may have outbreeding depression to contend with, as this is likely to be a real problem.

Prehaps the original comment was poorly worded, I only really intended to suggest that with the 'genepool' as it is, inbreeding does not simply mean full sibling pairing.


Oh, and I forgot to mention, that because 'morphs' in this species are polygenic, and have non predictable interactions, it it very difficult to use this as a justification of unrelatedness.
Andy


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## frenchy1979 (Oct 30, 2009)

*Breeding*

I have kept cresty's for around 4years now, and bred them for the last two. Firstly my cresty's are pets first and if they are lucky they will get the chance to breed for maybe three clutches, and then a long long rest.

I am getting more and more potential buyers approaching me with regard to themselves breeding their cresty's, once they are of age and weight. The same questions come up each time, how long to weight, what age weights, cost of hatchlings, what best morph to breed or cross breed. I in no real way encourage this, i will give advice to those who have aprroached me on a genuine level. But i do become increasingly worried by the amount of people that are now selling the cresty's on in breeding pairs now, they seem to be alot of sub adult and adult pairs being sold for a relatively low amouts.
I have found this mainly down to the fact that people have lost patients with waiting for them to come of age and weight, people want that fast quick buck now. Not in two years time, they dont want to wait or dont care for the cresty's health.

Some time ago now i bought a breeding pair from a well established rep shop, the male was fine, in good health and size. But the female was well underweight, undernurished, had fts and was too young. I split them for 8months, then retired her to a family who were non breeders as she was never going to be able to be breed from.
I found it hard to believe that a rep shop would do that, maybe private owners but NOT rep specialists. But i forget and shouldnt be so niave to think that it is only the money they care about.

I am a complete novice compared to you well established cresty breeders, but I have also noticed that the buckskin is slowly fading away. They do seem to be harder and harder to find now, maybe one day they will become the holy grail of the cresty morph.

The dalmatian has gotten their genes into most morphs now, maybe the only way ahead for all breeders now is to take a couple of years out and try to see which way we are headed with these gene traits. I am trying to breed single morphs now, apart from two cross morphs i have this maybe the only way ahead.

And last of all, the price of cresty's is dropping. I have mine at a reasonable price, i see them at £35 and i get buyers asking for the price to be dropped and for them to be a little cheaper. I firmly believe that £50 for character and 15 years of fun is a steal for any cresty, be it a stunner or a lesser coloured one.

I hope that we arent on a slippery slope towards the beardy world, cresty's are unique and are a far far superior species than alot of people give them credit for (sorry any beardie lovers:whistling2.


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## mondogenerator (May 6, 2009)

Crestie Chris said:


> Oh yeah, but hard, purple-vixen has a spotless colony of about 25? (not sure but somewhere around that value) but she spend lots of time hunting spotless cresties) I think she has all the ones in the UK
> 
> The problem with dal spotting is that it is caused by a dominant allele which is very hard to remove from a bloodline once established :S
> 
> saw you vid btw, I actually :rotfl:'d


 
oh bugger!!! and i was going to try and get a couple of spotless or at least NOT HARLEY NOT FLAME NOT ultra mega dalmation version 2.2 morphs.....:whistling2:

oh well next spotless, or vaguely brindled, or slightly unpopular looking cresty i see i will buy!

MUA HA HA HA HA :devil:


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## mondogenerator (May 6, 2009)

What am i saying? I LOVE THEM ALL!!!:blush:

and maybe it would be more accurate to say: that when i started out, i got a little caught in the morph game, or 'harley hype' as ive just decided im going to call it from now on,and now after having seen gorgeous plain, bicolour, spotty and even bright olive green(notice i refrained from saying GREEN) types i would love to get another cresty. TOTALLY different from Loki my red harley, beautiful as he is.

then that'll be the lot. No more. until next time .......


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