# is this allowed?



## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

here we go lol

i took my burmese python to my local counrty park today, (as i normally do) but today i was escorted off the grounds as it was a gala day and they said there not insured for me having it on me. 
baring in mind:

they have a snake on the grounds already,
theres dogs (big dogs) running freely with childern
and a falcon show going on where it could easly go for someone
they have a reptile section on the grounds
they say there insurance only covers dogs, cats, birds ect. but not snakes wrapped on me.
when i went up everyone was lovin seeing it, so much that i took part the croud away from the stalls that were charging money for things.

were they able to legaly do this?
who do i contact about getting an appolagy?

im so annoyed that ive never had a problem before untill im stopping someone making money. and how many dogs can easily turn on a child if it gets its ear pulled or tail stood. grrrr 

rant over.:notworthy::lol2::bash:


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

Whist I sympathise with your outrage at them being ignorant about your burm ( usual eugh big slimy snake syndrome), I am concerned for your snake did you take hand gel with you and make people use it before they touched it? If you didn't let them near then thats fine. But maybe a gala day is not the best environment for any snake. As you stated yourself lots of noise, birds flying and dogs on the loose.
The reptile area will probably have been an independant organisation and will have had their own public liability insurance, and this may have been the organisers concern. 
like I say it's not that I agree personally with what they have done but just looking at it from another perspective.


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## kazoku (May 16, 2007)

i run into the same thing sometimes

my OH is a manager at a pet store and they sell alot of reps everything from boas to leos

and i have had people actually ask me to stand outside when i come with my royal to the store...shes only about 3.5 feet and calm as they come....im not going around the store saying "hey you want to hold my snake" im simply just doing busy work around the store with my little girl around my wrist or around my neck/shoulders

i just dont get it...i guess they dont mind looking at them when there is a thin piece of glass seperating them but under any other circumstances most ppl get all wigged out


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## Gerry4292 (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm not surprised they asked you to leave,why would you take any snake to a public area.As for there being birds of prey there,you should concider yourself very lucky,I have birds of prey as well as snakes and other reps,and trust me when i say they don't mix,a Secratery(sp)Bird for example spends its life hunting snakes.Imagine the problem you would have had if the falconry people had one of them there.
atb,
Gerry.


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## Harrison (Feb 29, 2008)

Yeah I understand how it may be unfair that they usually allowed it but didn't this time... but personally I wouldn't be bringing a snake to such a public place anyway, mostly for the safety of the snake itself.

You mentioned you might have stole people away from stalls etc... But I think you'll find some people just left the gala altogether and went home. A lot of people don't like the thought of being in the same town as a snake let alone one that is so big.

Not trying to bash you, but I think you've been lucky being able to take the snake over in the past. I may disagree with it, but on the other hand you know your snake better than anyone and if they did let you have it with you before then it is quite unfair to change their minds now.

So I can see why you needed a little rant! : victory:


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Do you have public liability insurance?
What would of happened if the snake got freaked out and bit someone?


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

I personally cannot think of any valid reason for taking a snake out to a public park (or any public space). At the very least its likely to stress out your snake, at worst you could cause mayhem and I'm sure plenty of police officers wouldn't hesitate at arresting you (rightly or wrongly)

You seem to be quite proud of the fact that you and your snake got so much attention and that you were a bigger draw than some of the stall holders. I wonder if you're doing this just to get attention and "big yourself up" amongst the general public that don't own reptiles?*.

* I once saw a man walking around B&Q's with a boa around his neck. What possible reason for this could there be other than to draw attention to oneself?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

At the end of the day I think they are allowed to do what they want on their grounds! You're not walking in the street or on your own property, you are presumabley on the property owned by someone else, be it a private venture, a national trust or a council, they will have rules, and they have the right to refuse entry or escort anyone off their property, as far as I'm aware.

As other people have said... if your snake had bitten someone you could be sued, you could lose every penny you have, your house, your clothes, everything, over it. We live in a society where people are cashing in on everything. Not to mention the huge bad publicity this would give the hobby.

Any company that takes animals out into the public for people to view has public liability insurance. If you want to educate people and start showing your snake you definitely need to go about it correctly and get yourself covered, and ask for permission before bringing them to events.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

Even being a repitle keeper and a keeper of large snakes I wouldn't be happy to see someone in a PUBLIC place with kids/dogs etc with a large snake. As has been said the reason thye asked you to leave was if anyhting did happen to a memeber of the public (or one of their pets, or even one of their possesions) both you and the park would have been open for legal action.


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## rob-stl-07 (Jun 3, 2007)

have to agree with the people above. They own the grounds, so they can have your snake or not have your snakes on there ground. i am also thinking why you would take such a large snake to a place like this??? surely its common sense to not take a larg boid to a public place with families, young children and other animals??? think ahead.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

i think i might be being very naive in the comment im about to make and im sure ill get jumped on but im gunna say it anyway and this isnt sayin all your points arent valid but people take dogs out for walks in parks who are just as much risk as a snake, a large dog could bite of harm a member of the public so why is everyone drawing on this about the snake? each to their own i suppose, i often think about takin my bosc monitor out when hes big enough, obviously with the correct carrier/harness etc. why is it more socially acceptable to take a dog out for a walk in public but not a snake? it might enjoy the scenery and fresh air! so long as you dont let it go off on its own accord, take hand gel if neccesary and you're not just doin it to look " good" with a snake round ya neck" i dont see the harm in it

arent you open to the same legal action if your dog harmed a member of the public? im assuming so as dogs are no longer licensed


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

We need to accept that large snakes and probably large lizards are not socially "acceptable" by the vast majority of people and therefore are probably going to attract negative attention when taken out in public. I totally agree with reptiles getting fresh air and proper sunshine, but does this have to be in a public place? I would question the motives of the OP taking a large Burm' to a public park. Personally I don't agree with parading large reptiles around in public. It's not good for the hobby and I would suspect it doesn't have any positive effect on the animal, especially since we haven't had any days where the outside temperature and humidity would be adequate to keep a Burm' comfortable for anything more than a few minutes. If it's part of an organised, controlled educational display where the snakes have adequately heated vivs to be put into after only being out for a short time then fair enough, but why would you want to drape a Burm' or any other large snake round your shoulders and go out in public if not for the "look at me" factor?

(awaits onslaught of flaming..................)


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

we have had some days that have been hot enough lately havent we? so much so that 2 snakes, who were out on an educational day overheated and died, theres a whole thread about it. though i do understand the humidity part of your comment as this wouldnt be easily controlled

If no one ever sees them they will never become socially acceptable. i totally agree with you about the looks factor, but some people genuinly like to take their pets everywhere, be it a dog, cat, hedgehog, burm or beardie. I dont think it brings negative reactions back to the hobby providing the animal is under control and is being seen to be in possesion of an experienced keeper.


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## AZUK (Jul 9, 2007)

Other than to impress, shock or boost ego what possible reason would there be to place one self in this predicament ?
Exposing a snake to this sort of uncontrolled environment is hazardous to say the least. 

I exhibit exotic animals for a living and the amount of control measures, insurance and red tape needed is a nightmare !
Bear in mind that in doing such exhibitions/shows etc, members of the public are given a choice to attend/view such, this can not be the case when suddenly confronted in a public place unannounced !
In today's mad law suit world you might find yourself at the wrong end of lawyer.
There are also several infringements of the law to take into account not to mention licences for the transportation of such exotic animals.
This is a mine Field people !
Whilst I am sure that the original posters intentions were completely well intended there really is no need to take any snake or environmentally sensitive animal out for a day trip !
It only takes one bad move or unfortunate event to fuel the bad reputation reptiles have


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## soozthecat (May 24, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> i think i might be being very naive in the comment im about to make and im sure ill get jumped on but im gunna say it anyway and this isnt sayin all your points arent valid but people take dogs out for walks in parks who are just as much risk as a snake, a large dog could bite of harm a member of the public so why is everyone drawing on this about the snake? each to their own i suppose, i often think about takin my bosc monitor out when hes big enough, obviously with the correct carrier/harness etc. why is it more socially acceptable to take a dog out for a walk in public but not a snake? it might enjoy the scenery and fresh air! so long as you dont let it go off on its own accord, take hand gel if neccesary and you're not just doin it to look " good" with a snake round ya neck" i dont see the harm in it
> 
> arent you open to the same legal action if your dog harmed a member of the public? im assuming so as dogs are no longer licensed


To be fair it is more likely for people to have a fear of snakes than dogs and generally people who have a fear of dogs will to some extent avoid areas with dogs, especially loose dogs in.

Dogs are a domesticated species that people train, and should be well behaved within a public area, obviously there are many people who do not train their dogs and accidents such as bites can happen, however even if you know your snake well there could always be something that stirs it up into performing a negative behaviour, it may not even be something bad really but to someone who knows nothing about snakes or their behaviour it could cause you problems.


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## soozthecat (May 24, 2008)

AZUK said:


> Other than to impress, shock or boost ego what possible reason would there be to place one self in this predicament ?
> Exposing a snake to this sort of uncontrolled environment is hazardous to say the least.
> 
> I exhibit exotic animals for a living and the amount of control measures, insurance and red tape needed is a nightmare !
> ...


^^^^

Exactly what he said. :no1:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> we have had some days that have been hot enough lately havent we? so much so that 2 snakes, who were out on an educational day overheated and died, theres a whole thread about it. though i do understand the humidity part of your comment as this wouldnt be easily controlled
> .


Unless I'm mistaken, we haven't had any days where the outside temperature would be high enough to kill a snake through overheating. I haven't read the thread but my initial thought would be that the snakes were exposed to increased temperatures such as vivs in direct sunlight or in a car. However, that's an academic point as I maintain that it isn't beneficial to the snake or the hobby to be draped around the owners shoulders and taken into public areas where the reactions of the public cannot be guaranteed. The only person I see as "benefitting" from this is the owner and their ego


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

Im afraid it is allowed . most people who take their snakes to things such as these galas have permission. as a rule you shouldnt have a problem taking your snake anywhere public but you will often find oposition to it im afraid.


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## soozthecat (May 24, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, we haven't had any days where the outside temperature would be high enough to kill a snake through overheating. I haven't read the thread but my initial thought would be that the snakes were exposed to increased temperatures such as vivs in direct sunlight or in a car. However, that's an academic point as I maintain that it isn't beneficial to the snake or the hobby to be draped around the owners shoulders and taken into public areas where the reactions of the public cannot be guaranteed. The only person I see as "benefitting" from this is the owner and their ego


Agreed, also the educational stalls Ive been involved with before have always paid near constant attention to the danger of animals overheating, the animals welfare should be the number one priority.


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

hey, im not sayin its totally right to do this im just gently arguing the other side of the coin so we can have a fresh healthy debate and maybe i can learn something. i can just see the other side where someone might want to take their pet out for a walk, all be it what pet it is.

and the 2 snakes that died, they might have been in transit but im pretty sure they werent in direct sunlight.

when transporting reps we do all we can to keep them cool around this time, even out of direct sunlight and without heat packs in the car lately, the snakes have still been maintaining a good temperature. and imo when out of their normal habitat/viv reps, id rather keep reps cooler than warmer, cos its easy to warm a rep up but damn hard to cool it down, and it makes them more docile in transit so i think is less stressful for them, though i am straying from the topic somewhat now


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## littlejay (May 25, 2008)

I live in a small village, most of us know each other. Last week my daughter rang and said theres a guy in a local pub garden with a large lizard. So of course I went for a nosey at it.This guy had a large Bosc waddling around in a harness, of course he drew quite a crowd and was loving all the fuss. I cringed tbh and the 1 word going through my head was "POSER". I know people who just love answering their doors when they are holding their reptiles, is this for the shock value- I mean how long does it take to pop the rep back into the safety of its viv?. My reps all go out in my garden, I try to be discreet about it , mainly because I dont want some Chav clocking them and knicking them one night. Also I just dont feel the need to show them off. So my query is why did the OP take the snake to such a public area esp, when it became obvious there was some sort of "do" taking place? Not saying it was right he was asked to leave, just questioning his judgement.
Littlejay


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

*python faux*



xXFooFooLaFluffXx said:


> i think i might be being very naive in the comment im about to make and im sure ill get jumped on but im gunna say it anyway and this isnt sayin all your points arent valid but people take dogs out for walks in parks who are just as much risk as a snake, a large dog could bite of harm a member of the public so why is everyone drawing on this about the snake? each to their own i suppose, i often think about takin my bosc monitor out when hes big enough, obviously with the correct carrier/harness etc. why is it more socially acceptable to take a dog out for a walk in public but not a snake? it might enjoy the scenery and fresh air! so long as you dont let it go off on its own accord, take hand gel if neccesary and you're not just doin it to look " good" with a snake round ya neck" i dont see the harm in it
> 
> arent you open to the same legal action if your dog harmed a member of the public? im assuming so as dogs are no longer licensed


 
cheers for being one of the only people to back me up on this, everyones saying i shouldnt take my snake outside WTF not lol, and as for what if the snake bit someone, what if a dog kills a kid, and as for people who said there grounds. . . "pubilc park" where theres no signs saying no pet snakes. also if your able to read THEY ALREADY HAVE A SNAKE THERE!!!

guessing in the end i asked what i could do about it, not what you though about me taking out my pet. but hey slate away, my bad for actually helping the public see snakes aint bad. 

plus the cops were coming up wanting to take pics of it. . . not remove me till one guy said so coz people actually walked away from the show over to me with camera. . not walking home


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

S**T almost forgot. . .my ego pfft, dunno guess i shoulda bought a nice sports car instead to boosty it rather than something i love, hmmmm coz a snake will help me pick up chicks and boost my ego wont it, unlike sports cars that people are normally questionative about.

oh wait sorry i got that back to front haha.

for the record people who say there see no reason to take my snake out but for my ego, hows about, oh i dunno. . . . . 

make people more aware they aint going to kill everyone they encounter.
give my snake something better to look at than my room for a change since its a nice day.
brighten up childrens day with them having something a little more interesting to say than yeah the grass looks like it was kept in good condition
theres 3 reasons. 
pick your fav. as for ma ego, well im a pretty well educated guy, great body, loving wife. if i want my ego stroked i dont walk in the park with a snake. . . but thanks for the concern lol
:lol2:


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

littlejay said:


> I live in a small village, most of us know each other. Last week my daughter rang and said theres a guy in a local pub garden with a large lizard. So of course I went for a nosey at it.This guy had a large Bosc waddling around in a harness, of course he drew quite a crowd and was loving all the fuss. I cringed tbh and the 1 word going through my head was "POSER". I know people who just love answering their doors when they are holding their reptiles, is this for the shock value- I mean how long does it take to pop the rep back into the safety of its viv?. My reps all go out in my garden, I try to be discreet about it , mainly because I dont want some Chav clocking them and knicking them one night. Also I just dont feel the need to show them off. So my query is why did the OP take the snake to such a public area esp, when it became obvious there was some sort of "do" taking place? Not saying it was right he was asked to leave, just questioning his judgement.
> Littlejay


hey, you made a good effort there not to be a jerk so i think you deserve a personal answer, and your so right about some people doing it for shock value. to answer your question about why.

im now in my 3rd year of bioscience + genetics and been breeding snakes for 6 years now, showing the public (who on the whole are actually really interested) that snakes aint slimy and theres so much to them is great, and in a personal way, helping my own career in creating more customers, i done a wee charaty event in a primary school and showed off my burm and some wee corn snakes ect, got a nice letter from the head teacher saying how half the class went on about how they wanted snakes after it lol, and i think its great to break this stereotype


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I wouldnt take a snake out in public, you have to accept that alot of people are afraid of snakes, just because we are not then it makes it hard to understand how some people can be really frightened but they are, also the stress on the snake is going to be high, if theres alot of people around looking at it touching it ect, im afraid I dont agree that you have every right to sorry but thats how I feel, we dont need anymore negative publicity than we already have.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Pliskens_Chains said:


> Im afraid it is allowed . most people who take their snakes to things such as these galas have permission. as a rule you shouldnt have a problem taking your snake anywhere public but you will often find oposition to it im afraid.


thanks  

you actually gave me an answer to the question i asked. 
p.s. well done for reading what i actually wrote and responding rather than splurting out a paragraph of opinion


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

SiUK said:


> I wouldnt take a snake out in public, you have to accept that alot of people are afraid of snakes, just because we are not then it makes it hard to understand how some people can be really frightened but they are, also the stress on the snake is going to be high, if theres alot of people around looking at it touching it ect, im afraid I dont agree that you have every right to sorry but thats how I feel, we dont need anymore negative publicity than we already have.


 
understand where your coming from. . . no one was running away, i was moved because i was removing people from a bird show as they came over to me. they already have snakes there to.
n.b. i only take him out for a hour at a time for stress reasons to.

(and for everyone else to wanted to argue back)
only fight back if you actually have a valid reason please. were ment to by adults, i dont want to hear some petty reply to something i never asked - i didnt come here looking for a fight, i asked a question!!


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Harrison said:


> Yeah I understand how it may be unfair that they usually allowed it but didn't this time... but personally I wouldn't be bringing a snake to such a public place anyway, mostly for the safety of the snake itself.
> 
> You mentioned you might have stole people away from stalls etc... But I think you'll find some people just left the gala altogether and went home. A lot of people don't like the thought of being in the same town as a snake let alone one that is so big.
> 
> ...


 
just wanted to say thanks for the input, you made a vaild point for both sides. im actually more annoyed with peoples reactions online than 'the man' now haha. yeah im annoyed they dont mind me up when its good for them but when a guys got a bird out and people arent watching coz there coming over to me n he tells me i have to go, its so annoying lol.

anyway cheers for the input. :2thumb:


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## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

Gerry4292 said:


> I'm not surprised they asked you to leave,why would you take any snake to a public area.As for there being birds of prey there,you should concider yourself very lucky,I have birds of prey as well as snakes and other reps,and trust me when i say they don't mix,a Secratery(sp)Bird for example spends its life hunting snakes.Imagine the problem you would have had if the falconry people had one of them there.
> atb,
> Gerry.


If the snake in question is the one in his avatar then I don't think a secretary bird would stand a chance.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

well people feel free to give off views on things not quite related to what i asked. 
and what happened to the days where people atually wanted to help others. 
guess its easier to bash than assist. as for the people who did assist, thank you, i appreciate it.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Mark75 said:


> If the snake in question is the one in his avatar then I don't think a secretary bird would stand a chance.


hahahahahahaha it was that one, lol cant believe you actually said that, i was dying to but didnt want to say it, 

warning: people might try bash you now,

cheers for the comment


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## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

python faux said:


> hahahahahahaha it was that one, lol cant believe you actually said that, i was dying to but didnt want to say it,
> 
> warning: people might try bash you now,
> 
> cheers for the comment


I've been around here long enough to take a bashing so don't worry


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Mark75 said:


> I've been around here long enough to take a bashing so don't worry


yeah theres some people just out for a fight lol. 

cheers


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## Shey (Mar 24, 2008)

Someone's getting a little defensive lol , I've personally taken reptiles out in public areas too and the majority of the people just absolutly love it, they also learn a few things too! mind you I only brought mine into a suitable environment (my work) . If you're not putting anyone in harm and are allowed to bring him/her then there really should be no problem, people just need to learn to be more open minded. 
: victory:


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> you actually gave me an answer to the question i asked.
> p.s. well done for reading what i actually wrote and responding rather than splurting out a paragraph of opinion


To my mind that statement kind of demonstrates that you miss the point of the forums. Why should we only answer the specific questions that are being asked if we believe there is a more serious (underlying) issue that needs addressing? After all, if you hadn't taken your snake out in the first place (and most people seem to think you shouldn't have), you wouldn't have been asked to leave and then you wouldn't have had to make your original post asking whether they were legally allowed to ask you to go! Sometimes we all need to look at the bigger picture and that can make our original questions largely irrelevent and/or besides the point.

The forums would be a far worse place if people only ever answered specific questions being asked and never offered up any opinions that might change the focus somewhat and give the original poster new ideas that they hadn't yet considered. After all, not everyone knows enough to ask the right questions in the first place and, of course, getting answers to the wrong questions isn't going to be much help to the keeper or the kept. 

Forums should be about offering advice and opinions, not simply answering specific questions asked by a poster.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, my thoughts on it are simple.

I have the right to take my reptiles out into my garden.
I have the right to take my reptiles to where they have specifically been invited.

I have the right to take my reptiles IN BOXES or BAGS into public places - i.e. taking a snake in a cricket box on the train to get it home. 

I do not have the right to take my reptiles into public places or into privately owned places (like country parks) uninvited.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

python faux said:


> hey, you made a good effort there not to be a jerk so i think you deserve a personal answer, and your so right about some people doing it for shock value. to answer your question about why.
> 
> im now in my 3rd year of bioscience + genetics and been breeding snakes for 6 years now, showing the public (who on the whole are actually really interested) that snakes aint slimy and theres so much to them is great, and in a personal way, helping my own career in creating more customers, i done a wee charaty event in a primary school and showed off my burm and some wee corn snakes ect, got a nice letter from the head teacher saying how half the class went on about how they wanted snakes after it lol, and i think its great to break this stereotype


Just a quick question. You are obviously intelligent and realise that a snake, even captive bred, is instinct driven and cannot be 'traained' to behave in a certain way. Supposing you are out in a public place showing off your snake, which suddenly spots someone's dog and takes a lunge at it, bites, then wraps around it, trying to crush it. What will you do? Would you leave your details for the distraught owner of the dead dog in order for them to sue the arse off you? Will you consider it educational for the children to whatch while a pet dog screams and yelps while it's being crushed?
No matter what excuses you make to yourself, you are doing it do be a show-off just like the staffies owners are who walk their dogs in a harness strong enough for a shire horse and studded with 10kgs worth of indian brass.You want your snake to get some fresh air and sunshine? Take it out in the garden? You want to educate children? Do so in a proper manner with a range of reptiles, the proper public display licence and public liability insurance and stop being such a show off.
Just out of interest, how tall are you?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shey said:


> Someone's getting a little defensive lol , I've personally taken reptiles out in public areas too and the majority of the people just absolutly love it, they also learn a few things too! mind you I only brought mine into a suitable environment (my work) . If you're not putting anyone in harm and are allowed to bring him/her then there really should be no problem, people just need to learn to be more open minded.
> : victory:


 "you will be open minded if I take a potentially dangeous wild animal out in public and force you to notice me. If you don't you are narrow minded, nasty jealous people.":lol2:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

AZUK said:


> *Other than to impress, shock or boost ego* what possible reason would there be to place one self in this predicament ?
> Exposing a snake to this sort of uncontrolled environment is hazardous to say the least.


 
:no1:


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Would you like it if someone forced a phobia on to you?

Forgetting the liability and ego issues that go with it maybe you should think about other peoples feelings.
At the end of the day the public is socially taught that reptiles are bad and the VAST majority of the country don't like them at best and are petrifed at worst. All you are doing is forcing them to face their fears. Down right rude in my opinion, not to mention damaging to the hobby. 
The last bit is because many people when forced to face their fears will completely block up and never accept it, therefore reducing the likelihood that one day they will "come around and wake up"


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> Would you like it if someone forced a phobia on to you?
> 
> Forgetting the liability and ego issues that go with it maybe you should think about other peoples feelings.
> At the end of the day the public is socially taught that reptiles are bad and the VAST majority of the country don't like them at best and are petrifed at worst. All you are doing is forcing them to face their fears. Down right rude in my opinion, not to mention damaging to the hobby.
> The last bit is because many people when forced to face their fears will completely block up and never accept it, therefore reducing the likelihood that one day they will "come around and wake up"


 
i think when i say park people think little park this is like forests upon forests its huge, and what if people dont like dogs should they be forced to not go to a public park, what if your gay, and you not welcome in a straight bar?? because some guy might be homophobic with no real reason to be. gay bashing or reptile bashing without a reason shouldnt be any different.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Shey said:


> Someone's getting a little defensive lol , I've personally taken reptiles out in public areas too and the majority of the people just absolutly love it, they also learn a few things too! mind you I only brought mine into a suitable environment (my work) . If you're not putting anyone in harm and are allowed to bring him/her then there really should be no problem, people just need to learn to be more open minded.
> : victory:


lol im well defensive on this. people do learn and people have free will to come up and ask questions, and im not forcing someone to face a fear like some people think.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

python faux said:


> reptile bashing without a reason shouldnt be any different.


No, i agree - but it *IS*

That's just life, take it or leave it.

I wanted to add my last post because i wanted to show that other than the poor conditions you keep your snake their are other aspects to consider.


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## Dextersdad (Mar 28, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> I wanted to add my last post because i wanted to show that other than the poor conditions you keep your snake their are other aspects to consider.


Handbags at dawn people.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

essexchondro said:


> To my mind that statement kind of demonstrates that you miss the point of the forums. Why should we only answer the specific questions that are being asked if we believe there is a more serious (underlying) issue that needs addressing? After all, if you hadn't taken your snake out in the first place (and most people seem to think you shouldn't have), you wouldn't have been asked to leave and then you wouldn't have had to make your original post asking whether they were legally allowed to ask you to go! Sometimes we all need to look at the bigger picture and that can make our original questions largely irrelevent and/or besides the point.
> 
> The forums would be a far worse place if people only ever answered specific questions being asked and never offered up any opinions that might change the focus somewhat and give the original poster new ideas that they hadn't yet considered. After all, not everyone knows enough to ask the right questions in the first place and, of course, getting answers to the wrong questions isn't going to be much help to the keeper or the kept.
> 
> Forums should be about offering advice and opinions, not simply answering specific questions asked by a poster.


 
fair do's can i have the free will to tell you to shove your view up your arse lol  kiddin. in my opinion i think your wrong and theres no underlying issue. . . if you read all the other posts no one was harmed, no one was running away, i was removed because i wasnt making them money!!! thats the issue.

but i do agree with you on the point that sometimes the wrong answers and questions dont go together so im not disagree with you completely.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> No, i agree - but it *IS*
> 
> That's just life, take it or leave it.
> 
> I wanted to add my last post because i wanted to show that other than the poor conditions you keep your snake their are other aspects to consider.


 
what poor conditions?


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Well, I do not have the right to take my reptiles into public places or into privately owned places (like country parks) uninvited.


 
why not? legally there a pet like cats, dogs, a woman had her tortoise up to. and they have a snake there, i dont take it to a public train station, i took it to a place where they have a snake


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Maybe also thinking about the snakes welfare would be a good idea.

I am not a boid keeper and do not mind being corrected, but aren't Burmese Pythons supposed to be kept at a temperature of around 85F with a basking spot of 90F ? Presumably with quite a high humidity coming from Burma ?

Now... I know we are in the process of global warming... but I get a niggling feeling at the back of my mind that a country park in Scotland may not be the best place for it.

Personally, If I want to give my snakes some fresh air and a change of scenery... I take them out in the garden for 15-20 minutes then put them back before they get too cool.

I would be too concerned about things like Salmonella, Tripping over and the snake escaping, having one of my lovely snakes damaged in some way by somebody, somebody getting bitten, my snake catching some virus and getting a respiratory infection ... the list goes on....

These things would far outweigh my snake getting a change of scenery and people knowing they are not all man-eaters. Screw the people... I'm more concerned about the snakes


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

ratboy said:


> Maybe also thinking about the snakes welfare would be a good idea.
> 
> I am not a boid keeper and do not mind being corrected, but aren't Burmese Pythons supposed to be kept at a temperature of around 85F with a basking spot of 90F ? Presumably with quite a high humidity coming from Burma ?
> 
> ...


i didnt just take him our for a better view lol, and yeah i also wrote i dont have him out for more than 60 mins, and only on warm day, AND lol i dont put him on the ground for people virus' or bacteria to infect him. lol

(lota ands there)


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

python faux said:


> why not? legally there a pet like cats, dogs, a woman had her tortoise up to. and they have a snake there, i dont take it to a public train station, i took it to a place where they have a snake


People do not have the right to take their dogs into places where they're not allowed though. For example, in the city that I live, there are parks where you can take dogs - there are parks where dogs have to be kept on a lead, and there are parks where it says no dogs at all. As a dog lover, i have to be aware of the rules of the area I am walking my dog in and adhere to them.

If you ignore absolutely everything else that has been said, at the end of the day, people have a right to say sorry, that's not allowed here.. it's their land, not yours.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Maybe also thinking about the snakes welfare would be a good idea.
> 
> I am not a boid keeper and do not mind being corrected, but aren't Burmese Pythons supposed to be kept at a temperature of around 85F with a basking spot of 90F ? Presumably with quite a high humidity coming from Burma ?
> 
> Now... I know we are in the process of global warming... but I get a niggling feeling at the back of my mind that a country park in Scotland may not be the best place for it.


Read Steves post and inwardly digest.

The poor conditions i refer to are the ones you are submitting your snake to.

IF you don't keep your snake at the correct temperatures you WILL give it an RI at the very best.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Athravan said:


> People do not have the right to take their dogs into places where they're not allowed though. For example, in the city that I live, there are parks where you can take dogs - there are parks where dogs have to be kept on a lead, and there are parks where it says no dogs at all. As a dog lover, i have to be aware of the rules of the area I am walking my dog in and adhere to them.
> 
> If you ignore absolutely everything else that has been said, at the end of the day, people have a right to say sorry, that's not allowed here.. it's their land, not yours.


 
i think youve missed the point so im sorry i'll re-explain some bits. 

they have a snake there already.
theres never a problem with him there any other week.
if theres a sign saying no pets/animals/reptiles ect i dont take it in.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

python faux said:


> i think youve missed the point so im sorry i'll re-explain some bits.
> they have a snake there already.
> theres never a problem with him there any other week.
> if theres a sign saying no pets/animals/reptiles ect i dont take it in.


You will NEVER find a sign on the doors of ASDA saying you're not allowed rhino in their but i bet you'd be rapidly asked to leave.

While we may think this is a silly comparison, for most of the public it isn't.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> Read Steves post and inwardly digest.
> 
> The poor conditions i refer to are the ones you are submitting your snake to.
> 
> IF you don't keep your snake at the correct temperatures you WILL give it an RI at the very best.


again ill say this, pfft, snake, warm day, on the ball with the temp, snakes FINE so much be doing something fricken right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or what am i just a lucky guy 

guessin im chancing luck since this was like the 15th time, hmmmmm

i know how to look after my reps thanks!


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> You will NEVER find a sign on the doors of ASDA saying you're not allowed rhino in their but i bet you'd be rapidly asked to leave.
> 
> While we may think this is a silly comparison, for most of the public it isn't.


but you see signs saying to pets ya dipstick lol 

and you cant buy a rhino in a pet shop lol


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

python faux said:


> again ill say this, pfft, snake, warm day, on the ball with the temp, snakes FINE so much be doing something fricken right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or *what am i just a lucky guy*


So far. Snakes have a habit of hiding the fact that they are becoming ill until they are no longer able to.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

ratboy said:


> So far.


 
guess so then


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

python faux said:


> but you see signs saying to pets ya dipstick lol
> 
> and you cant buy a rhino in a pet shop lol


What has where you buy it got to do with anything?

Here are the facts, whether you want to accept them or not:

It isn't your land so they can ask whoever they want to leave whenever they want.
You are submitting your snake to substandard conditions and therefore open to charges of "unnecessary suffering" - which would stand up in court.

I can pretty much guarantee you will argue this but it make no difference.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> What has where you buy it got to do with anything?
> 
> Here are the facts, whether you want to accept them or not:
> 
> ...


FACT?
You are submitting your snake to substandard conditions and therefore open to charges of "unnecessary suffering" - which would stand up in court.

really that a fact. were you there hahahahaha you dont know s**t lol

your fact is opinion! read a dictionary before you tell me what fact means please.

AND! as where where you buy it, a pet is bought in a PET shop, funny enough. And a rhino aint, lol. so a 'no pets' sign at asda would mean any pet you buy from a pet shop isnt allowed in. 

and as for arguing back, yeah well i knew you'd want the last word so i'll await your reply smarty pants


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

python faux said:


> FACT?
> You are submitting your snake to substandard conditions and therefore open to charges of "unnecessary suffering" - which would stand up in court.
> 
> really that a fact. were you there hahahahaha you dont know s**t lol
> ...


You can have the last word, i honestly don't mind. By all means post after this :notworthy:

It is a fact that you have your snake in an alien environment at incorrect temperatures for your own enjoyment when you could have it at the correct temperatures in a comfortable environment for the animal. Therefore is IS unnecessary suffering - ie you are forcing it on the animal for fun and not because you have to.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

You are currently talking to people who keep reptiles, are in the same hobby as you, have campaigned about the publics perception of reptiles, are actively trying to change the publics perception of reptiles ( and their keepers ), have kept and bred reptiles for years ...

Does it not tell you something that if these people think that what you are doing is at best an ego trip and at worst endangering the health of your animal that it _may _not be the best thing to be doing ? and if these people think like this... why should the park keepers and the public think any different ? 

Maybe the people that asked you to take the snake away know that it's not the best place for the snake to be ?


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

ratboy said:


> You are currently talking to people who keep reptiles, are in the same hobby as you, have campaigned about the publics perception of reptiles, are actively trying to change the publics perception of reptiles ( and their keepers ), have kept and bred reptiles for years ...
> 
> Does it not tell you something that if these people think that what you are doing is at best an ego trip and at worst endangering the health of your animal that it _may _not be the best thing to be doing ? and if these people think like this... why should the park keepers and the public think any different ?
> 
> Maybe the people that asked you to take the snake away know that it's not the best place for the snake to be ?


 
well the public do think different, as i saw, no one was scared remember, and i think some people here just want to keep snakes because its 'cool' and dont want others to enjoy them. since i had a old granny shouting at the council because she said she wanted to see it i kinda feel ive got a case even in SOME people on a reptile forum dont want me to.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

reticulatus said:


> You can have the last word, i honestly don't mind. By all means post after this :notworthy:
> 
> It is a fact that you have your snake in an alien environment at incorrect temperatures for your own enjoyment when you could have it at the correct temperatures in a comfortable environment for the animal. Therefore is IS unnecessary suffering - ie you are forcing it on the animal for fun and not because you have to.


MY enjoyment, guess snakes are simple animals who just want to sit in there tank all day, btw for anyone whos ever lost a snake does it climb back to the tank when its bored as it loves it that much, and for breeders a box with a water dish is a alien environment lol
oh and temp's fluctuate in the wild crazy enough


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

python faux said:


> well the public do think different, as i saw, no one was scared remember, and i think some people here just want to keep snakes because its 'cool' and dont want others to enjoy them. since i had a old granny shouting at the council because she said she wanted to see it i kinda feel ive got a case even in SOME people on a reptile forum dont want me to.


Sorry, but stating that nobody was scared is preposterous  If someone was scared they would have simply stayed well away from you and the snake and you would be none the wiser.

Going from personal experience about 1 adult in 10 actually LIKES snakes, another 2 in 10 do not mind them and the rest are really very scared of them. I know PLENTY of grown adults that will not go near my snake shed... and the biggest snake I have is an 8 foot Taiwanese beauty.

Most people on here keep snakes because they love snakes dude. They don't give a damn if others 'enjoy' them or not, it's not their hobby and they have been doing it long enough to know that 70% of people are initially terrified of them.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

ratboy said:


> Sorry, but stating that nobody was scared is preposterous  If someone was scared they would have simply stayed well away from you and the snake and you would be none the wiser.
> 
> Going from personal experience about 1 adult in 10 actually LIKES snakes, another 2 in 10 do not mind them and the rest are really very scared of them. I know PLENTY of grown adults that will not go near my snake shed... and the biggest snake I have is an 8 foot Taiwanese beauty.
> 
> Most people on here keep snakes because they love snakes dude. They don't give a damn if others 'enjoy' them or not, it's not their hobby and they have been doing it long enough to know that 70% of people are initially terrified of them.


i cant prove your figures are true or not but its ok, i think the people who dont like snakes wouldnt be somewhere that has snakes if they were feart of them, everyones missing the point now, they have snakes, they dont mind me there, and cops were taking pics of it, but i stopped a guy getting attention and it went all pete tong


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Is this other snake being carried around the park or does it have an enclosure there which they take it out of every now and again ?


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

ratboy said:


> Is this other snake being carried around the park or does it have an enclosure there which they take it out of every now and again ?


both. gets brought out daily

kinda like my snake it dont get carried about the park 24/7 does it !


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Point is though they probably do know something about snakes and have somewhere to immediately put theirs should something go wrong, the animal shows signs of stress or the weather conditions change suddenly for example.

Sorry dude... but whichever way you look at it, from your snakes viewpoint what you are doing is irresponsible and they are right to tell you to take it home.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

ratboy said:


> Point is though they probably do know something about snakes and have somewhere to immediately put theirs should something go wrong, the animal shows signs of stress or the weather conditions change suddenly for example.
> 
> Sorry dude... but whichever way you look at it, from your snakes viewpoint what you are doing is irresponsible and they are right to tell you to take it home.


lol my back garden is next to the park lol im probally closer to my enclosure than they are to theres lol. plus i suppose my body temp being average at 97F i assist in heating the snake on a hot day already. but thats neither here nor there.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Sorry to harp on, but taking reticulatus' point about animal comfort and health above all else, Burms should be kept at an ambient temp of 80-85F with a basking spot of about 90F. Are you telling us that the temp on that day around Glasgow was in that range? Not to mention the humidity in the 70-80% range. To reduce both the ambient temperature below about 75F and the humidity below about 65% is inviting trouble in the form of RI. They come from the jungles of Southeast Asia, by no stretch of the imagination is the climate there anywhere near that of Glasgow.
To answer your question, what they did was entirely legal and, in the opinion of about 95% of the respondents to your post, entirely the right thing to do.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Python, I'm still interested in how tall you are.
Your attitude really worries me as you seem not to be able to understand that you might be doing something unsocial or which could harm or upset people. Put it this way. I used to have a large dog which frankly, was savage and downright dangerous. He was unpredictable and that's what made him dangerous as he could be wagging his tail one minute and taacking the next. Should I be upset if members of the public were afraid of him? Should I have demanded that I be allowed to take him everywhere with me, including into crowded noisy public places? You no more know when your snake might take it into it's head to bite someone than I could predict when 'Kip' would attack someone. I made sure that he was never put into a situation which could stress him and endanger others. Are you really saying that you would be happy for me to come to your home and hang about with my dog? You wouldn't object to the fact that he was possible scaring you or putting you or your family in danger?
Kip was well trained and obedient, adored me and most of the time was amiable. He was also very handsome and people wanted to stoke him. Should I have considered myself some sort of crusader and have a duty to 'educate' people on the benefits of a well trained dog by taking him out in public? I didn't think so because however well trained, he had a screw loose and he might have attacked someone.
If people want to learn about snakes (or any other exotic pet), there are places they can go to learn. Plenty of companies do 'reptile parties' for schools and the like. What you are doing is forcing it upon them for some kind of warped idea in your mind that you are doing them a favour or doing them some good.
You keep a snake, big deal. It may be a big snake and a beautiful snake, but at the end of the day it is merely the pet you have chosen to keep. It might attract some passing interest, but it is still only your pet.If the unthinkable happened and it latched onto some child's face, you will actually have done harm to the whole herp' keeping hobby. No doubt you still won't get it into your head that you might have been in the wrong, you are convinced that you alone are right and nobody understands you and that everyone is against you. In medical terms, that's called paranoia.
You keep a snake, loads of people keep snakes is it not enough for you to just enjoy your pet without having to play the 'big I am'? Showing off, like boasting, isn't an attractive trait in a man.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> Sorry to harp on, but taking reticulatus' point about animal comfort and health above all else, Burms should be kept at an ambient temp of 80-85F with a basking spot of about 90F. Are you telling us that the temp on that day around Glasgow was in that range? Not to mention the humidity in the 70-80% range. To reduce both the ambient temperature below about 75F and the humidity below about 65% is inviting trouble in the form of RI. They come from the jungles of Southeast Asia, by no stretch of the imagination is the climate there anywhere near that of Glasgow.
> To answer your question, what they did was entirely legal and, in the opinion of about 95% of the respondents to your post, entirely the right thing to do.


is it 95% exactly, and are you the law? is anyone here the law, or a judge? guessing not. what about taking any snake out its tank is everyones room got to be the exact temp or its illegal to take it out?

and as for the temp last year, 118 °F was reached there. should we call the asian authorities for animal suffering


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Python, I'm still interested in how tall you are.
> Your attitude really worries me as you seem not to be able to understand that you might be doing something unsocial or which could harm or upset people. Put it this way. I used to have a large dog which frankly, was savage and downright dangerous. He was unpredictable and that's what made him dangerous as he could be wagging his tail one minute and taacking the next. Should I be upset if members of the public were afraid of him? Should I have demanded that I be allowed to take him everywhere with me, including into crowded noisy public places? You no more know when your snake might take it into it's head to bite someone than I could predict when 'Kip' would attack someone. I made sure that he was never put into a situation which could stress him and endanger others. Are you really saying that you would be happy for me to come to your home and hang about with my dog? You wouldn't object to the fact that he was possible scaring you or putting you or your family in danger?
> Kip was well trained and obedient, adored me and most of the time was amiable. He was also very handsome and people wanted to stoke him. Should I have considered myself some sort of crusader and have a duty to 'educate' people on the benefits of a well trained dog by taking him out in public? I didn't think so because however well trained, he had a screw loose and he might have attacked someone.
> If people want to learn about snakes (or any other exotic pet), there are places they can go to learn. Plenty of companies do 'reptile parties' for schools and the like. What you are doing is forcing it upon them for some kind of warped idea in your mind that you are doing them a favour or doing them some good.
> ...


 
you wrote a whole lot there i'll touch on some points as i aint got time to repeat my self to much, i have already said i do events for schools. and as for the dog comment, thats kinda my point i was making when i said dogs can kill kids and its ok to take them anywhere and even when a dog attacks someone theres no problem, i dont have dogs because my wife was attacked by a dog once and she dont like them, the court done nothing about it. can i tell everyone with a dog to leave the public park?

everyone i ask about there thoughs in person of the event seam to back me up but they dont sit on forums stiring s**t i understand peoples views here saying snake temp ect and ive countered it, it seams to be annoying them lol. 

also the last part lol my ego dont need stroked, i aint updated my snake list on here in forever, coz i dont need it stroked lol, i'll buy a car n take it to shows if i wanted that.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

python faux said:


> is it 95% exactly, and are you the law? is anyone here the law, or a judge? guessing not. what about taking any snake out its tank is everyones room got to be the exact temp or its illegal to take it out?


This is getting ridiculous now, you obviously missed the bit where I said *about* 95% of the people here. Nowhere did I say it was *illegal* to take a snake out for extended periods in temperatures and humidities outside is preferred range, in addition nowhere did I profess to be "the law" or "a judge". You have now descended into misquotes and huge intellectual leaps to reach conclusions that were never intimated in the first place.
It's fairly obvious that in your opinion, you did nothing to create a negative image of snake keeping, nor did you potentially cause the snake any discomfort or put it at risk. You see yourself as the victim in this instead of thinking about the welfare of the snake.
Flame away, I for one will not be responding anymore as it is blatantly obvious that there are none so blind as those who will not see.


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

stuartdouglas said:


> This is getting ridiculous now, you obviously missed the bit where I said *about* 95% of the people here. Nowhere did I say it was *illegal* to take a snake out for extended periods in temperatures and humidities outside is preferred range, in addition nowhere did I profess to be "the law" or "a judge". You have now descended into misquotes and huge intellectual leaps to reach conclusions that were never intimated in the first place.
> It's fairly obvious that in your opinion, you did nothing to create a negative image of snake keeping, nor did you potentially cause the snake any discomfort or put it at risk. You see yourself as the victim in this instead of thinking about the welfare of the snake.
> Flame away, I for one will not be responding anymore as it is blatantly obvious that there are none so blind as those who will not see.


 
kl we disagree. thats reallty all there is to it


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

taking it back to you orginal point.



python faux said:


> here we go lol
> 
> i took my burmese python to my local counrty park today, (as i normally do) but today i was escorted off the grounds as it was a gala day and they said there not insured for me having it on me.
> 
> ...


They probably hired/booked/paid whatever you want to call it, the park for that day. The other reps, on display, pre-booked. The organisers would have known, agreed to it and they probably had their own insurance to boot.

So yes, they were entitled to asking you to leave - _get over it._


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

peaches said:


> taking it back to you orginal point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
see thats a straight forward answer as for the get over it part, shove it i aint bothered about it now its more people not being able to read im not over lol. but cheers they might have booked it. and thats kl, any idea who i could ask to find out?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

python faux said:


> why not? legally there a pet like cats, dogs, a woman had her tortoise up to. and they have a snake there, i dont take it to a public train station, i took it to a place where they have a snake


Actually, a snake is NOT equivalent to a cat or a dog. 
Cats and dogs are both considered *domestic* animals. 
Snakes are considered *exotic* animals.

You mention that normally it is not a problem for you to take your snake to that park but on this specific occasion - when they had someone with a reptile display there as part of the Gala - they asked you to leave.

Has it occurred to you that they may have paid a substantial sum to the person with the reptile display - and that you were threatening the park/display's income if there was a charge to enter the gala/to view the reptile display? Or that the reptile display owner was only insured for HIS animals - and the presence of another animal that wasn't included in his possessions could have posed a problem for the insurers?

If you went into Sainsburys with a bushel of apples and started giving them away for free or for less than they were listed for on the Sainsburys shelf, I bet you'd get turfed out too! And they are absolutely legally allowed to do so - because you're on their property.

There is at least one owner of an aggressive large breed dog near us who is FORBIDDEN to take their dog on the playing field behind my house; the land may be public property, but "the public" does not own it - the council does - and this particular dog has posed a threat and/or a nuisance to others. So it's not just snake owners that could get turfed out. YOU cannot tell people with dogs to leave public property - but the council certainly could.


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

python faux said:


> any idea who i could ask to find out?


Contact the organisers.

I say get over because surely there are more important things in life than taking a snake to a park?


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Actually, a snake is NOT equivalent to a cat or a dog.
> Cats and dogs are both considered *domestic* animals.
> Snakes are considered *exotic* animals.
> 
> ...


 
thats kl about the dog it was kinda my point, and my snake aint annoyed anyone yet, and the reptile bit is there 24/7. plus there insured


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## python faux (Jan 18, 2008)

peaches said:


> Contact the organisers.
> 
> I say get over because surely there are more important things in life than taking a snake to a park?


 
kl, i'll prob write to them, see if they reply lol. yeah theres way more to life than a small one day thing, more annoyed at some people being petty here lol. cheers for the advice.


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