# Animal rights and inverts, and actually doing something about it.



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

hiya all. I've been seeing loads of threads about "I saw this on youtube" 

Invert fights. 

I know I'm not the only one who feel they do not deserve this kind of treatment. I know they are used for food for other animals, but that doesn't mean we can use them for entertainment like that surely? 

As another member put it on the most recent "I saw this" Thread, unnecessary suffering. 

As I said on the other thread, if we were to put a angry bull (theroretical situation) and a pig in a pen and force a fight, animal rights would be up in arms about it. Even though after we could kill and eat the animals. So why is it ok to do exactly the same thing with inverts, forced fight and (theoretically) feed to a reptile? 

So we're clear, I keep insectivorous reps, and I keep inverts. However all my inverts, including the livefood, is kept in the best conditions I can provide for them. And they do not suffer more than they really have to. If they aren't eaten, they are returned to the colonies and not fed off again (yes I can tell them appart) My roach colony's getting a housing upgrade soon cuz it's growing lol. And I do have a pet Locust. He's called joe. 


Anyway, I'm going to contact the RSPCA and get their stance on bug fights like this. And find out what it will take to change it. I'll post their email for anyone else and their replies assuming I have permiossion to do so. 

If anyone has any suggestions for things I should include/they would like to see included please let me know (PM or post!) I'll update as I get info. 

If it comes to something like a petition, how many of us invert fans would sign? Personally I'd hope we all would.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

what always gets me is the way they use inverts on 'im a celebrity'...

Dosnt set a good example for the idiotic masses who watch it...


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Yes! exactly what I mean. Hadn't thought of that one though. Saw a add for it... pouring hissers ( i think) over someone and stepping on them. Why? How is that fair? what did they do to deserve that?


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

No i agree, they sem to use them as entertainment props rather than allowing them to be animals! Imagine the uproar if they used a cat or something like that on the show the same way they do with inverts!


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

i know its not inverts, but the worst abuse i saw on that show was a few years ago, when they dumped a tank full of eels onto the ground after the game, and left them exposed to air, wriggling around in the leaf litter.

I know eels can survive exposed for some time, but come on?! wudnt have taken much to look after them properly...


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

hadn't seen that. that's sick. It doesn't matter if they can survive, why should they have to? We are keeping them in captivity by force, they didnt choose it, so we should give them the respect the deserve. Even a snail which is forced into captivity deserves our respect. not mistreatment and clear abuse.


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

Nah unfortunatly they don't look at certain animals like fish or inverts in the same way as say a dog or a cat. Maybe someone should start a petition up and try to get these shows to stop


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

I was flicking channels earlier and one of them had to put a live spider in his mouth, keep it there for 30 seconds then spit it out on to the floor. That programme is shocking! But nobody cares.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

what worries me, is that they claim to have an 'on-site vet' overseeing animal welfare... :whistling2: Who reckons its Ant/Dec in a lab coat with a badly fitting wig?


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Well some people do. And often it only takes one to get the ball rolling. This time that one's me. I'm writing the RSPCA a very long email right now. thanks for all the exaples, their being used! 

And if a petition did come up, who'd sign?


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

id sign, everyone on here should sign, the one thing everyone on RFUK has in common is a passion for animals...


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

"don't worry, their not being abused, they don't have rights" 

:banghead:

Fat lot of good a vet is going to be. especially to a heap of dead bugs. 



HalcyonInverts said:


> what worries me, is that they claim to have an 'on-site vet' overseeing animal welfare... :whistling2: Who reckons its Ant/Dec in a lab coat with a badly fitting wig?


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks! Yeah I'd hope they do. Still writing the email. Think will have to mention the petition idea. 



HalcyonInverts said:


> id sign, everyone on here should sign, the one thing everyone on RFUK has in common is a passion for animals...


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks! Yeah I'd hope they do. Still writing the email. Think will have to mention the petition idea. 

Email: trying to keep it to the point, tell em what you think guys? 
Hi, I have a serious question about the rights and equality of any animal. I would like to know why it is that dog fighting/cock fighting and all other such fights are banned/illegal/against animal rights, but invertebrate fights are ok? 

Only I have recently been seeing a lot of videos and have been hearing of a lot of situations where 2 invertebrates are placed together in a completely unnatural situation and forced into fighting. 

these are species which are normally docile and calm. for instance Chillian rose tarantulas. 

Another thing I would like to question is why programs such as "I'm a celebrity" can use living, breathing animals as props. i do not watch such programs but I did see an advert for one not long ago where a large tank of cockroaches (I think, I didn't see exactly what kind) were poured over a contestant and trodden on. I ask, why do they warrant such treatment? What makes it acceptable to use them like this, but at the same time makes it unacceptable to do that with, say, cats? 

If any other examples are required they can be provided. 




HalcyonInverts said:


> id sign, everyone on here should sign, the one thing everyone on RFUK has in common is a passion for animals...


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## danza (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd sign it. Some of the things that the media gets away with are pretty shocking.


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## kyledawelsh (Mar 7, 2008)

i'd sign it :whip:


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Awesome. Opinions on what I've got so far guys pleassseee?


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

I really doubt you'll get anywhere I'm afraid. Most of the videos originate from either America or Asia. Contacting a British institution will likely prove futile.

Everyone knows my opinions on those horrid youtube videos, but I think there is too much anthropomorphistic ideals being applied here.

Where do you draw the line? What really is the difference in posting a video of a tarantula killing a roach, and centipede killing a tarantula? What makes the other any more acceptable?

If laws are passed protecting inverts, then many animals are simply going to run our of food. What makes a cricket any less valuable than a tarantula for example? People keep pet crickets too after all.


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

Hi,

Firstly, I think you'll find a lot of the videos on youtube of invert fights are from other countries, where the RSPCA have no jurisdiction (they don't even have jurisdiction in Scotland, never mind overseas). 

And secondly, I am sorry but I would not sign such a petition. 
Of course, the invert fights and abuse videos are disgusting and I think what goes on on 'I'm a celebrity' is animal abuse and should not be on TV.

In theory, its a great idea. But in practice, how do we know where it would lead?
The RSPCA are hardly known for being in support of even the most responsible exotics keepers, and this is not going to work in our favour and will just be further fuel for 'the antis'.
And where do you draw the line, ie with livefoods? 
It is easy for us to say that feeding out pets on livefoods is natural etc etc but to non exotics keepers they may see that as hypocritical.
Don't forget that your little fluffy friend is someone elses 'giant, extremely dangerous, bird eating spider' and I would hazard that the majority of the general public are going to be in the latter group and possibly more likely to think a blanket ban on keeping these creatures in captivity would be the best solution. 

Before sending a letter like this to the RSPCA, you may want to nip into the sub-forum 'Hobby Issues and Information' in the 'General Herp Chat' forum and read some of TSKA Rory Matiers posts.


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

I know, and thats where it gets tricky I guess. But IMO these videos (and whilst some are not UK others are, and their are other situations) aren't feeding, their purely entertainment. Same deal as with livefeeding snakes I guess (i think) it's illegal to video/show to the public but it is ok under certain conditions... ? 

at least a start would be making these "cage match" bug fights illegal? like cock fighting/dog fighting


Sure, will do that now.


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## danza (Mar 31, 2009)

I agree with you on the 'Bugfights' front at least. You will get absolutely nowhere complaining about that (that is if the OP means the Asian youtube videos).

However, some of the things that the broadcasting companies get away with here are unacceptable. They do go OTT on 'I'm a Celebrity', and really should know better, even if they're on shores that are not effected by the same laws that we impose against animal cruelty over here.


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

I know the asian ones theres jack all that can be done, so lets leave them. Theres still the UK ones and such things as "Im a celebrity though" :/


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

Here is a thread on a similair subject from last year

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/spid...nophobia-hits-slippery-slope-legislation.html


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Read it all through, thanks! 

"Fact is, cruelty occurs a lot in invertebrates, not helped by suchs veiws that "they dont feel pain" etc, which acts almost as a justification. That, and people buying them almost as a social badge - "hey, im cool, I have a scary tarantula". IMO, it would do us all a lot of good if we supported such attempts to add PET inverts to the AWA and concentrate on getting people to keep inverts for the right reasons." 

- GRB

I think the key word here is PET. 

But then how do you define pet? I actually have a pet locust. 

it's i tricky one, I know, but at the very least with no protection against any kind of cruelty, these animals just aren't getting the respect they deserve IMO.

As a side, fish are protected aren't they? yet we can go kill fish for fun. (not that i do or would) Why can the same idea's not be altered to fit a different situation. just a thought. 

This has made my brain ache lol.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

I dont think much will be done imo

As where do you differentiate between the 1000 crix i have here as livefood for my Lizards, T's etc and the inverts i keep as pets?

Im not being funny i just would really like someone to explain that to me :hmm:


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## Marcia (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd sign a petition : victory:

They should at least ban these videos from youtube.

Where does it stop? What happens when a person gets bored of making his inverts fight? Will he move onto something bigger? Snakes, lizards, cats, dogs?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Everyone seems to be missing the point...

Legislating this is going to be so difficult, how are you going to draw the line between say a beardie chasing a cricket and videoing it or a mantid catching prey versus what is going on in these vids?

I know it is bad and dont agree with it myself, but there is always the option not to watch. When you start asking for legislation you start bringing in laws that prevent us keeping exotics as a whole.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Muze said:


> I dont think much will be done imo
> 
> As where do you differentiate between the 1000 crix i have here as livefood for my Lizards, T's etc and the inverts i keep as pets?
> 
> Im not being funny i just would really like someone to explain that to me :hmm:


I think the line is being drawn at using inverts for 'entertainment' as in video'd bug fights or on TV. Feeding Crix is a neccersary evil, same as feeding live mice to snakes etc. its legal but shouldnt be done as a 'show'

Although id sign, i know nothing will come of it. will just be good to show that concerns have been raised by the Invert community.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

HalcyonInverts said:


> I think the line is being drawn at using inverts for 'entertainment' as in video'd bug fights or on TV. Feeding Crix is a neccersary evil, same as feeding live mice to snakes etc. its legal but shouldnt be done as a 'show'
> 
> Although id sign, i know nothing will come of it. will just be good to show that concerns have been raised by the Invert community.



Depends what some people would class as entertainment tho...

Again a vid that is done as a feeding documentary (is there as a reference to keepers eg: showing how to correctly assist feed, live feed) could be seen as a show to some.


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## MissyBats (Nov 11, 2009)

because feeding your animal is for it's own good and for its health, however feeding your T to your scorpion is not for its own good or for the scorpions, and in fact not for ANYONES own good...
we are feeding them to keep them healthy and alive, and taking care of them, putting your T in with a scorpion is not taking care of your "pet" at all...
I must admit in all teh nature programmes I have watched I have never seen a T and a scorpion together fighting till the death...
as the owner of these pets we have responsibility for them no matter what that pet is, and that's what makes the difference between feeding crickets and fighting.
well in my opinion anyway
I do think, if nothing else, youtube and such sites could ban these vids, so at least it's less acceptable, even if no rights or legislations are given, that would help somewhat, take away the "hits" and there's no need to make such vids!
: victory:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

MissyBats said:


> because feeding your animal is for it's own good and for its health, however feeding your T to your scorpion is not for its own good or for the scorpions, and in fact not for ANYONES own good...
> we are feeding them to keep them healthy and alive, and taking care of them, putting your T in with a scorpion is not taking care of your "pet" at all...
> I must admit in all teh nature programmes I have watched I have never seen a T and a scorpion together fighting till the death...
> as the owner of these pets we have responsibility for them no matter what that pet is, and that's what makes the difference between feeding crickets and fighting.
> ...


I have said i agree...but how do you legislate against one sort of invert to another...thats what people dont seem to understand.

Crickets, locust, T's , mantids...they are all inverts. Therefore you cannot have a blanket ban :whistling2:


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## mikemike118 (Aug 15, 2009)

Ozgi said:


> I was flicking channels earlier and one of them had to put a live spider in his mouth, keep it there for 30 seconds then spit it out on to the floor. That programme is shocking! But nobody cares.


im a celebrity get me out of here?

the new series where two celebrities had to put a water spider in there mouth for 30seconds to get a star


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Muze said:


> I have said i agree...but how do you legislate against one sort of invert to another...thats what people dont seem to understand.
> 
> Crickets, locust, T's , mantids...they are all inverts. Therefore you cannot have a blanket ban :whistling2:


 
True, a blanket ban would be nothing but trouble, but as another poster said, surely more specific legislation would be approriate. i know it would be very hard to draw the line, but it can't be impossible. 

For instance, I know live feeding snakes is sometimes nessicary, but you don't film it and put it on youtube do you? Well... most of us don't. 

I know educational videos could be called into this too, but surely they could be excluded? but then I guess all the videos just get renamed "educational video on how to feed your T to your scorpion" .... 

And how do you justify feeding T's to scorpions (sorry only example I can think of right now) It's not doing the scorpion any good really. No more good than "standard" livefoods would. Maybe some form of livefood legislation? Not this is, this isnt obviously, but something that would classify livefood better than it is at the moment. If that makes sense? 
what about something that means that have to be fed in a way which causes the least suffering? I can't see that affecting the feeding of crickets/locusts/roaches as I dunno about yours but mine go in, and go down the gullet as fast as I can blink lol. 

is there anything that we as keepers have/do keep that actually eats T's/scorpions/big centipedes ect? Is there anyone who actually uses these as food? Can see it being unbelivably expensive way of feeding something lol. 

if there's not, could "feeding" them to things (i.e forced fights...) not be banned? Maybe that wouldn't work, probably not, I'm just thinking out loud lol.

All the inputs great, keep it comming  Most intelligent thread I've seen on RFUK in a fair while now lol.


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## Crab Man (Oct 3, 2009)

Muze said:


> Everyone seems to be missing the point...
> 
> Legislating this is going to be so difficult, how are you going to draw the line between say a beardie chasing a cricket and videoing it or a mantid catching prey versus what is going on in these vids?
> 
> I know it is bad and dont agree with it myself, but there is always the option not to watch. *When you start asking for legislation you start bringing in laws that prevent us keeping exotics as a whole.*


I'd say go carefully here as well. It seems like these days, if there is some sort of issue, it gets sorted with a blanket ban.
I've seen this way too many times already through kiteboarding - my other hobby. So many places, mainly beaches, have been lost through blanket bans on kiteboarding. In most cases local groups have tried to negotiate with councils in order to safely pursue our sport and coexist with the general public. In nearly all cases the response has been banning the place because the boffins at the councils don't understand the sport, and don't want to. They just decide it's dangerous and must be eradicated - job done!
I can just too easily see something like this happen with keeping inverts/reps.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Just look at the situation with DWA inverts for example...theres stuff on that list that shouldnt even be on there in mine and many other vastly more experienced keepers eyes....will it get taken off? Not for the very long forseeable future.

Thats what happens with legislation in this country...ban one...ban em all


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## steveyruss (Feb 19, 2008)

For sure there needs to be more transparency with feeding laws, this must not include just inverts but all reptiles too otherwise too many innocent keepers will find them on the wrong side of the law when carrying out basic husbandary needs when doing nothing morally wrong. Truthfully I don't see what animal rights will offer inverts on a small scale because not enough of the population give a damn, it will not be properly enforced and will just lead to tigher regulation when selling. Sad but true unfortunately. I don't trust the government enough because the people who make these rules probably don't own anything other than a cat or a dog. Take a look at what a mess the DWA system is.


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## MiniMonsters (Feb 24, 2009)

From reading the thread, it seems clear that trying to change laws on the activities on youtube videos would be nigh on impossible and could have wider implication for those of us who keep them responsibly...

HOWEVER as someone who takes inverts and reptiles into the general public to try to educate, I find that these reality challenge programmes like 'I'm a celebrity' are extremely harmful, encouraging the 'it's only a bug, it doesn't matter' attitude. I would be quite willing to sign a letter to ITV and the producers of 'I'm a celebrity' expressing our concerns and highlighting that many of us actively avoid watching this programme (and encourage others to do the same) due to it's apalling animal welfare (BTW I find that people get very confused with the words animal and mammal and sometimes don't think inverts are animals!).


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> hiya all. I've been seeing loads of threads about "I saw this on youtube"
> 
> Invert fights.
> 
> ...


Good for you mate, at least you are pro active.

Steve


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks Steve! 

I know the ideas full of holes and all, and it would take a lot of work to figure out a workable system, but I know I would be prepared to do it if I was given half a chance. Besides, I got bored of all the complainy threads 

Crab man - Yeah I've heard of similar things happening. Last thing anyone wants is any kind of blanket ban. I think it has a lot to do with not understanding, as you said yourself. 

Steve - Yeah I'd thought of that, a lot of people simply don't care (which in my mind is sick, whether you like a animal or not should have no bearing on how much respect you give it. I personally don't like spiders or T's very much, they creep me out, but I would never intentionally hurt one)

MiniMonsters - The example was what we can find easily on youtube, but it applies to other things too like these reality tv shows, plus anything else anyone can think of (i know theres more, but total mind blank) 

Though your idea of a letter to ITV about their use of inverts and things as props is a great one! May look into this idea, would be intresting to hear what they have to say at least. 

Another passing thought, what about recording "feedings" for entertainment/public use? That would make it pretty hard to make these bugfight shows. And on the reality show one... I'm not sure.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Good subject but I dont think anyone has mentioned that inverts dont have a central nervous system, only a collection of ganglion nodes which orientate its movement by relaying "information" between the body parts and the "brain".

They are incapable of feeling pain. They are physically not effected in a way vertebrates are. 

Either way, we have much bigger problems such as mass extinction looming, and indeed underway. Animal welfare is surely a distant priority after this. 

Good luck with your cause though I doubt the RSPCA are of much use to anyone unless your talking furry critters.


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## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

Doubt RSPCA will do anything. If anything will call for ban on keeping inverts too. If they ever get there way you will only be allowed to keep dogs, cats, rabbits, rats and mice.
Might even call for more of peoples money to start a campaign. RSPCA = animal rights in disguise. They do a good job helping injured and mistreated animals etc, but thats what they should stick to, to political as far as im concerned now.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

I hate youtube vids if awful stuff like this, I saw a vid the other night of some idiots feeding a live mouse to a pacman, which was about the same size if not bigger then the frog. They were all like 'yeh how cool' and then laughing, I'm amazed the frog didnt get hurt as a mouse in a small confined space will give a bloody good fight.

And I hate these 'bug war' type vids too, tarantula versus scorpion and rubbish like that, obviously these guys are embarressed by the fact that their 'man-hoods' are significantly smaller than the size of the bugs they have fighting with each other!


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## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

ambyglam said:


> I hate youtube vids if awful stuff like this, I saw a vid the other night of some idiots feeding a live mouse to a pacman, which was about the same size if not bigger then the frog. They were all like 'yeh how cool' and then laughing, I'm amazed the frog didnt get hurt as a mouse in a small confined space will give a bloody good fight.
> 
> And I hate these 'bug war' type vids too, tarantula versus scorpion and rubbish like that, obviously these guys are embarressed by the fact that their 'man-hoods' are significantly smaller than the size of the bugs they have fighting with each other!



Yes i know what you mean, i always wonder where the parents are when things like this are going on. Always seems to be young kids doing this kind of thing.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Thanks Steve!
> 
> I know the ideas full of holes and all, and it would take a lot of work to figure out a workable system, but I know I would be prepared to do it if I was given half a chance. Besides, I got bored of all the complainy threads
> .


I think it is really good that you have shown the enterprise.

I don't think it_ is_ really full of holes.

Of course, people can complicate the issue as they do, however, EVERYONE knows the difference between using inverts as feeder food, and setting up a fight. 

And that is the one area you should focus on.

Don't let people put you off.

If you are contacting the RSPCA, send one to the SSPCA as well. Would be interested to read their differing view.

And, if all else fails, you will have tried, and for that alone, I salute you.

: victory:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Gaboon said:


> They are incapable of feeling pain.


Some people have a (bad) accident, and after it, they can feel nothing from the neck down. Wouldn't give me the right to stick pins in their legs!


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

why not contact google (they own youtube right?) and ofcom about these thing as well find out there stance on such things? as well as such people like the rspca sspca etc


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

enlightenment said:


> Some people have a (bad) accident, and after it, they can feel nothing from the neck down. Wouldn't give me the right to stick pins in their legs!


No your right it wouldnt automatically give you the right, but it wouldnt be as bad as if this person could feel the pain inflicted. Unless you think it makes no difference. In this case its a question of conscience and nothing to do with the subject your considering as it has no welfare effect on it either way.


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## MissyBats (Nov 11, 2009)

again it's a case of no matter what legislations we put in place, someone will ruin it, and then run teh risk of an all out ban in which we all suffer...
it is hard to legislate the actual keeping, as it would be with any animal really!
people only know when animals suffer if it's reported!
so should all pets be banned?
no, I just think what someone said before is right, feeding in the most humane way.
but again, this wouldn't stop the fighting that goes on, if they want to fight their animals they will... 
I think as a group it's making sure we all look after our animals well and know we are doing the right thing and keep them the minority.
I don't know what else can be done really! as much as we'd like it to be...


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

I know this may all end up with nothing. In all likelihood it will, but my conscience has decided I wana at least make a point of it, and man it aint gunna change it's mind lol. Even if nothing comes of it, I'll feel better knowing I made the point.

Enlightenment - Thanks dude. I know it's not all that hard to differentiate between the feeders and the pets, You know it, most of us on here know it, the issuse comes when those who control such rules and regulations don't. after all, a bugs a bug right? *sigh* 

Yeah, I'm trying to focus on the fights thing, but a lot of it is Asian uploaders. Which of course we have no control over. But youtube and such are UK hosted aren't they? So any laws ect apply to whatever they show on their site IMO. 

Lets not let this get into a "they have no ****" thread please  Whilst I entirely agree, that fact wont help lol. 

Spend day - I'm going to as soon as I get back, gotta pop out in a sec. Would be very intresting to see what they all have to say. See how the ITV justifies it's invert "abuse" 

MissyBats - of course your right, nothing can completely stop people. Theres a million and one examples through history of things being "banned" but people of course doing it. USA - prohibition for instance. But then The same could be said for anything. Murders "Banned" but people still do it. 

And someone always ruins things for everyone, but as responsible keepers we have to prove that those that try to ruin it ARE in a minority, and hope someone sees enough sense to understand that. 

legislation would be hard to implement, that's no question, but the same applies to cats, dogs, hampsters, mice, rats, and every other pet the animal agencies claim to protect. 

Placing a ban on these fights would at least put a end to these videos, and a certain amount of protection to inverts would stop reality shows too, and maybe help change this idea of "it's only a bug" 

the poit is, these animals didn't choose to be captives, they didn't decide living in a box is best for them, they didn't climb into nets and boxes when the first wild caught ones were taken. But now they are here, we keep them for our own pleasure, nothing more, and it's our resposiblity to make sure these animals (emphisis there, ANIMALS as a lot of people forget) get the repect and care they deserve. If they can't have their freedom, we can at least make sure they live long, healthy, and even happy (i know, they don't have feelings as such, but I mean it in a general term, though having explained that I might as well have been more specific - stress free, pretator free, disease/pest free ect) lives. 

Just my opionion. Feel free to add your own, that's what I started the thread for!


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

MissyBats said:


> so should all pets be banned?


Nope.

Possibly just the deranged psychopaths we have calling themselves 'owners'.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> MissyBats - of course your right, nothing can completely stop people. Theres a million and one examples through history of things being "banned" but people of course doing it. USA - prohibition for instance. But then* The same could be said for anything. Murders "Banned" but people still do it*.


Correct.

People would still do it, of course, such is the nature of some.

However, a change in legislation (covering the UK), would make it a criminal offence.

Which is something.

Again, all the best for trying.


Steve


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

the change would also stop us using them as food.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

animalstorey said:


> the change would also stop us using them as food.


Only if you commonly feed T's to a pede.

Or scorpions to a T.

Is that common feeder food?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

animalstorey said:


> the change would also stop us using them as food.



and as such stop us keeping reps, inverts and some mammals.

Which is what i was trying to point out before. Government officals have limited knowledge on our hobbyy/hobbies, therefore would order a blanket ban to include locust, crix etc as they have done so with so many other things. If the YouTube vids are disturbing to you just simply dont watch them or flag them and resist the urge to post them on forums such as this....it really is that simple.


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> and as such stop us keeping reps, inverts and some mammals.
> 
> Which is what i was trying to point out before. Government officals have limited knowledge on our hobbyy/hobbies, therefore would order a blanket ban as they have done so with so many other things. If the YouTube vids are disturbing to you just simply dont watch them or flag them and resist the urge to post them on forums such as this....it really is that simple.


Are _you_ able to distinguish between someone feeding a T on crickets, and someone putting an adult T in with an adult scorpion for 'amusement'?

Let me put it another way.

You* don't* see dog fighting on You Tube.

But it still goes on.

However, because it is (now) illegal, anyone involved in it can go to jail.

There was a time when the practice _was _legal.

I guess someone must have been the catalyst for that change, right? 

And, yet, we do not see a ban on owning dogs.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

thankyou enlightenment! It would seem we are on the same page! that's a great point you make there, the same logic (i know thats a tricky thing for a government body to grasp but it happens occasionally!) to inverts and feeders. 

tbh i don't expect anything to come of my inquiries, but they cant do any harm imo. 

And i would hope that a invert keeper raising this issue with them would force the concept across that feeders are not the same as inverts and must be treated as such. We shall see I guess.


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> thankyou enlightenment! It would seem we are on the same page! that's a great point you make there, the same logic (i know thats a tricky thing for a government body to grasp but it happens occasionally!) to inverts and feeders.
> 
> tbh i don't expect anything to come of my inquiries, but they cant do any harm imo.
> 
> And i would hope that a invert keeper raising this issue with them would force the concept across that feeders are not the same as inverts and must be treated as such. We shall see I guess.


Mate, just call me Steve, I feel a total cock when being called 'Enlightenment', esp if I have to call you TheMetalPhysicNinja. 

You are right.

You _might_ get no place, but at least we will get to see what the RSPCA have to say, and the SSPCA, for that matter.

Same things happen on dog forums.

Some cruelty case will come up, and you then have ten people saying how they would 'like to nail the guy to a wall', etc, etc.

But when it comes to trying to do something constructive, guess what - suddenly their momentum dries up.

Odd that, huh?


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Are _you_ able to distinguish between someone feeding a T on crickets, and someone putting an adult T in with an adult scorpion for 'amusement'?
> 
> Let me put it another way.
> 
> ...


Domesticated dogs dont have to eat live mammals to live tho do they? :whistling2:

Inverts have to eat other inverts to live...at least the ones we are talking about do...


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Domesticated dogs dont have to eat live mammals to live tho do they? :whistling2:
> 
> Inverts have to eat other inverts to live...at least the ones we are talking about do...


Notwithstanding.

Cock fights (oo-er, mrs), bull baiting, etc, all used to be legal.

And now they are not.

No reason why this couldn't be treated the same way.

Food doesn't come into it.

You know the difference.

Don't pretend you don't know


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> You _might_ get no place, but at least we will get to see what the RSPCA have to say, and the SSPCA, for that matter.


You really do not want the RSPCA telling you what you can or can't do with your inverts. 



enlightenment said:


> Mate, just call me Steve, I feel a total cock


When you state things like the first quote there is a good reason for this.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Steve it is lol 

yeah i know, ive seen so many threads and posts with "id do this that or the other" and i thought at the very least this one would prove who had the nerve to actually do anything and who'd just bitch. 

Yeah... just because an animal is considered food doesnt make it exempt. like Steve said, so many other uses of animals have been made illegal simply because they are cruel for the animal, ie the animal suffers, so why should't inverts get the same respect? even if some kinds of inverts are used as food, so what? we use chickens as food, but making them fight is illegal (Steve ) so why cant it be illegal to make inverts fight but still use them for a food?

Adam


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Notwithstanding.
> 
> Cock fights (oo-er, mrs), bull baiting, etc, all used to be legal.
> 
> ...


Please dont be fascious, i dont appreciate it. I am a grown up after all:whistling2:




Baldpoodle said:


> You really do not want the RSPCA telling you what you can or can't do with your inverts.
> 
> 
> 
> When you state things like the first quote there is a good reason for this.


:no1:


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> You really do not want the RSPCA telling you what you can or can't do with your inverts.
> 
> 
> 
> When you state things like the first quote there is a good reason for this.


Needless ad hom, imo.

Every forum has their cyber mouth piece, I suppose.

*rolls eyes*


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Steve it is lol
> 
> yeah i know, ive seen so many threads and posts with "id do this that or the other" and i thought at the very least this one would prove who had the nerve to actually do anything and who'd just bitch.
> 
> ...


 
Adam, some people just want to nit pick for the hell of it.

I think you are doing a good thing.

Thanks

A. Cock


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> You really do not want the RSPCA telling you what you can or can't do with your inverts.
> 
> 
> 
> When you state things like the first quote there is a good reason for this.



We do however want to know why inverts are considered a lower form of life than other animals? 

And keep the insults to yourself thankyou. especially when you take quotes out of context and twist them.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Certain people really have got a flea up their arse about something tonight...or would that be classed as cruelty? :lol2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> We do however want to know why inverts are considered a lower form of life than other animals?
> 
> And keep the insults to yourself thankyou. especially when you take quotes out of context and twist them.


Adam, relax, mate.: victory:

By now, I am used to these cyber hard men, who throw insults out from the comfort of their lounge.

I used to call them out_ in person_, until I realised, guess what, when you do, they never show..


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

wow 3 posts in the time to write mine. though in my defense i have a snake in my other hand  

thanks Steve, I know theres always one isnt there?  

Muze, it's not appreciated when someone nit picks either. We all know how much of a tricky matter this is to decide, but being difficult wont help will it? Can you honestly say feeders are the same as your T? Or your millipede? 

Guys, come on, lets not let this thread become a bickering match. I'll just get it closed and start over


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

tell you what enlightenment you go out and get the RSPCA all interested in your cause, so that inverts get their protection status, or what ever you want to call it, increased and then see the thanks and appreciation you get from most/almost all the people who keep inverts.


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

And again lol. 

Steve I'm calm. I'm calm *breathe* lol. 
just irritates me sometimes. Especially on constructive threads where people could and do have a lot to say, but can be put off by others comments. 

Anyway, Muze, I meant no offence, merely making my point. Your welcome to yours of course but no insults please!


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> wow 3 posts in the time to write mine. though in my defense* i have a snake in my other hand*


Pardon!!!!

:gasp:


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> wow 3 posts in the time to write mine. though in my defense i have a snake in my other hand
> 
> thanks Steve, I know theres always one isnt there?
> 
> ...


Yes as they are all inverts and all get afforded the same treatment...fed watered well looked after untill the end...as the best that gets put into them goes into my pet animals...which has gotta be good for the pet animals.

Sames as it does for the rats and multis here...big cages plenty of toys, good food etc...untill the gas chamber for snake/lizard food....makes sense imho.

I wouldnt feed the crappy petshop frozen mice/rats and any livefood i have is bred here#


Btw between myself and Roy we have well over 200 pet inverts so we dont have names or emotional bonds like some do to their inverts


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Badpoodle.... read the other posts  we've been through this!


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> And again lol.
> 
> Steve I'm calm. I'm calm *breathe* lol.
> just irritates me sometimes.* Especially on constructive threads* where people could and do have a lot to say, but can be put off by others comments.
> ...


Never argue with an idiot, Adam.

Those watching may not be able to tell the difference.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

so cos people keep madagascan cockroaches as pets we shouldnt let anything bad happen to them or let people abuse them etc...yet is ok to use a dubia? inverts are low down on the chain, u try to stop one invert from beining used as food or whatever it applys to all. there are approx 38000 sp of spider. do we try to have rules for all of them? can i not feed the spare roaches,sticks,katydids and other hoppers i keep as pets to a spider or other animal. is it cruel that in south east asia eat reptiles and inverts? do you want to be locked up the next time you stand on a snail in the garden or taken to court cos your 4 yr old daughter stamped on one? 

I do hate the celebrity get me out of here but watch it!!!!! what i dont like is the way the contestants flick, shove and stand on the snakes, lizards and rats. 
verts have a much higher standing. Most to the insects are bred for the show and what ends up on the floor ofen becomes food for other animals.

I also dont see the point in eating a LIVE australian prickly stick insect like in the last show. i keep looking at mine and think how the hell does one eat that? 

Dont push the RASC bloody A into banning this and that..its take ages for them to become more exotic friendly, they use to be on the side of the anti's till they realised they couldnt win. They still dont know enough either!
I noticed that the scotish equilivent of the rspca are now doing animal talks in scotland and saying that other companies dont look after their animals.....not like they do. Proaganda bullshit


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Never argue with an idiot, Adam.
> 
> Those watching may not be able to tell the difference.


you'll beat me down with your idiocy mate : victory:

and for the record i never called you a name...shows how mature you are


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

IF you feel that neither the RSPCA or SSPCA 'know enough' about inverts and reptiles, why not contact them, offer to help them out, in that area, as a volunteer?

Just a thought.


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> you'll beat me down with your idiocy mate : victory:
> 
> and for the record i never called you a name...shows how mature you are


You are paranoid.

What made you think I was meaning you?

I meant the other member, who twisted something I said, and took it out of context.

And then you gave him/her one of these :no1: for doing so, thus endorsing it.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> We do however want to know why inverts are considered a lower form of life than other animals?
> 
> And keep the insults to yourself thankyou. especially when you take quotes out of context and twist them.


Not an easy question to answer and I for one can't do so with a good understandable answer, but it has a lot to with their perception of pain, intelligence and a whole many other factors that I honestly don't know or care about. 

regards to the insult...Well he was being one with his comment.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> You are paranoid.
> 
> What made you think I was meaning you?
> 
> ...


you mentioned my name in that post ...if you didnt mean me then i sincerely apologise 

i was agreeing with the other bit of his post...not the insult


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> you mentioned my name in that post ...*if you didnt mean me* *then i sincerely apologise*
> 
> i was agreeing with the other bit of his post...not the insult


I didn't mean you.

I meant Baldpoodle.

However, having reflected, I can clearly see they are a genius, so I will say no more about them.


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Muze said:


> Yes as they are all inverts and all get afforded the same treatment...fed watered well looked after untill the end...as the best that gets put into them goes into my pet animals...which has gotta be good for the pet animals.
> 
> Sames as it does for the rats and multis here...big cages plenty of toys, good food etc...untill the gas chamber for snake/lizard food....makes sense imho.
> 
> ...


 
gas chambers arent that friendly either. it still takes time for them to choke and die expecialy if you use bicarb and vinager and dont get the mix right or dont use enough etc. the bottle gas can also be the same,(u might run out!) thats why you have to be defra approved/checked to humainly put down mice and rats for food. u could use a mouse trap though as approve method! but stamping on thier heads or hitting with a hammer or drowning is just as quick and swift in many cases but rspca not going to approve.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Adam, relax, mate.: victory:
> 
> By now, I am used to these cyber hard men, who throw insults out from the comfort of their lounge.
> 
> I used to call them out_ in person_, until I realised, guess what, when you do, they never show..


well now, thats because you are the big hard man and we cyber hard men are all scared of you.

Get a life or jog on.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> I didn't mean you.
> 
> I meant Baldpoodle.
> 
> However, having reflected, I can clearly see they are a genius, so I will say no more about them.



Thanks for clearing that up...and i do retract the idiocy thing x


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> well now, thats because you are the big hard man and we cyber hard men are all scared of you.
> 
> Get a life or jog on.


Jog on?

FFS, have you ONLY just watched the football factory? *s******s*

Anyway, personal insults of that nature are not permitted on this forum.

Are you happy to comply with those rules?

Thanks


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

animalstorey said:


> gas chambers arent that friendly either. it still takes time for them to choke and die expecialy if you use bicarb and vinager and dont get the mix right or dont use enough etc. the bottle gas can also be the same,(u might run out!) thats why you have to be defra approved/checked to humainly put down mice and rats for food. u could use a mouse trap though as approve method! but stamping on thier heads or hitting with a hammer or drowning is just as quick and swift in many cases but rspca not going to approve.


regarless they have to die to feed my lizards and snakes and i would much rather they had a happy life with big cages and toys etc than having died on a rodent farm...you might wanna read about them on the domestics section...

and i can confirm my way is alot more humane than their way as alot of the time the rodents hit the freezers there still alive

I use bottles and i dont and have never run out...i always check!

you slowly gas so they go to sleep first...and dont panick...then increase the gas ...read about it please before commenting thats all i ask.


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Thanks for clearing that up...and i do retract the idiocy thing x


No worries.

Feel the love.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> IF you feel that neither the RSPCA or SSPCA 'know enough' about inverts and reptiles, why not contact them, offer to help them out, in that area, as a volunteer?
> 
> Just a thought.


Because I wouldn't want them taking a big interest in my inverts, as once that happens the penny starts rolling and before you know it you are up to your bumhole with lots of unnessary rules and regulations for keeping them.


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

reasonable points there. Now, I am not saying you cannot choose what you use as a feeder. I use roaches and locust the most, yet alos keep roaches as pets. 

Yes, there are a lot of species of spider. How many of those do we keep though? 100 maybe? I have no idea on that number. And yes. Whats wrong with rules for them? Like, no, you cannot put these spiders in a glass box and make them fight. No. you cant. end of. 

I can't see how that would affect feeders at all imo. 

no, it's not cruel. Is it cruel that in korea they eat dog? 

What about dona kebab? You know that's traditionally horse? I didn't bring into question what we can or cant eat, only the treatment of those same inverts in their use as props in TV and for entertainment? 

I don't have a 4 year old daughter, so if she stamped on a snail I'd be very, very worried.  

So you hate it yet you watch it? Is it just me or is that hypocritical? your helping to give them the viewers they need to push the production of next season. Just my take on it. 

Serious question, how can you sit there and watch them force contestants to eat the same animal you keep as a pet? live? 

I agree, they don't. No-one does. I don't. I don't know everything and anything about all the inverts in the world. do you? Until we do, no-one knows enough yet. 

I know they are not perfect. But it is their job to enforce the animal rights, so they were the first place I started for infomation. 

I'm not pushing them into doing anything. As of this moment I am only asking for their standing on the matter. what they see it as, what their opinion is. out of intresst. 

Please post back! Would love to hear what you have to say! Want to hear what everyone has to say on this, thats why the treads here! after all, we're all entitled to our own opinions. Just wanted to hear what others thought on it. 



animalstorey said:


> so cos people keep madagascan cockroaches as pets we shouldnt let anything bad happen to them or let people abuse them etc...yet is ok to use a dubia? inverts are low down on the chain, u try to stop one invert from beining used as food or whatever it applys to all. there are approx 38000 sp of spider. do we try to have rules for all of them? can i not feed the spare roaches,sticks,katydids and other hoppers i keep as pets to a spider or other animal. is it cruel that in south east asia eat reptiles and inverts? do you want to be locked up the next time you stand on a snail in the garden or taken to court cos your 4 yr old daughter stamped on one?
> 
> I do hate the celebrity get me out of here but watch it!!!!! what i dont like is the way the contestants flick, shove and stand on the snakes, lizards and rats.
> verts have a much higher standing. Most to the insects are bred for the show and what ends up on the floor ofen becomes food for other animals.
> ...


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Jog on?
> 
> FFS, have you ONLY just watched the football factory? *s******s*
> 
> ...


dont I feel small now.:notworthy:


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> *Because I wouldn't want them taking a big interest in my inverts,* as once that happens the penny starts rolling and before you know it you are up to your bumhole with lots of unnessary rules and regulations for keeping them.


How can you know that they would?

Let me put it this way.

I would love to see more of a criterea for dog ownership.

I have a dog.

I would be quite happy for any inspector to come around, and look at him.

I have nothing to hide.

Thanks


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

enlightenment said:


> IF you feel that neither the RSPCA or SSPCA 'know enough' about inverts and reptiles, why not contact them, offer to help them out, in that area, as a volunteer?
> 
> Just a thought.


 All they want to do is prosecute and and make money.
say they dont to the poor seal i phoned them about and they said it would be alright! didnt want to know at all. kept phoning and even when telling them kids had been attacking it with stick it still took two days for them to check and remove the dead body. 

what about all the shit they caused in the 1990s for reptile keepers who ended up loosing there collections and werent doing anything wrong!

what about when they collect the animals and have to hold them for a court case and give them to so called approved reptile keepers to look after yet after a few months they are often sold. they can even charge for boarding each animal per day meaning that when a keeper gets out of court and is allowed to have his animals back they are givent a hugh bill! (or sometimes not even giving them back) They should not give animals to private breeders at all. 

on one of the Rspca tv programs some guy had his monkey taken off him as an inspector thought it was too young to be sold! 2 years later it was aquitted and had to be given back!!!! 

sorry but animals need a voice but it aint RSPCA


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> dont I feel small now.:notworthy:


Not sure.

Do you?

Who is that in your sig, btw?

Thanks


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

But they are an organisation that doesnt have a clue on how they are supposed to be kept and doesnt want us to keep exotics....we wouldnt let em in our front door! :gasp:


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

animalstorey said:


> All they want to do is prosecute and and make money.
> say they dont to the poor seal i phoned them about and they said it would be alright! didnt want to know at all. kept phoning and even when telling them kids had been attacking it with stick it still took two days for them to check and remove the dead body.
> 
> what about all the shit they caused in the 1990s for reptile keepers who ended up loosing there collections and werent doing anything wrong!
> ...


 
What would you suggest, as an alternative?


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> But they are an organisation that doesnt have a clue on how they are supposed to be kept and doesnt want us to keep exotics....we wouldnt let em in our front door! :gasp:


Set up your own organisation.

One that does have a clue.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Set up your own organisation.
> 
> One that does have a clue.


believe you me if i didnt have a family to take care of i would, but unfortunatley i have other more pressing matters that i wont go into on a public forum


----------



## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

more legislation is not going to solve anything. education is the only thing that'll work...the best thing is to talk to people, educate them as you can.

of course we have to be factual, and it's true that if inverts "feel pain", it's in a way we don't understand, as they don't possess the same nervous system as vertebrates. but it's best to act as if they do, to be safe, treat them as we'd like to be treated if we were inverts!

i seriously don't think getting the government more into this issue is going to make life any better for us OR our creatures.

most animal rights laws in most countries...just don't work. they either cause detriment by misunderstanding entirely the animals' needs by anthropomorphising them, or they're simply useless.

educating people one by one is seriously the only hope any creature on this human-blighted planet has.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

corpselight said:


> more legislation is not going to solve anything. education is the only thing that'll work...the best thing is to talk to people, educate them as you can.
> 
> of course we have to be factual, and it's true that if inverts "feel pain", it's in a way we don't understand, as they don't possess the same nervous system as vertebrates. but it's best to act as if they do, to be safe, treat them as we'd like to be treated if we were inverts!
> 
> ...


The most sensible post yet :no1:


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> believe you me if i didnt have a family to take care of i would, but unfortunatley i have other more pressing matters that i wont go into on a public forum


Fair play.

Off to watch 'Life'.

It's about insects tonight, I think.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Fair play.
> 
> Off to watch 'Life'.
> 
> It's about insects tonight, I think.


Cheers for the heads up :2thumb:


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

enlightenment said:


> Set up your own organisation.
> 
> One that does have a clue.


Quite right Steve. 

Now are we all past the name calling? I hope so. Back to the point. 

Animalstorey - I see your reasoning, and I'll acept it. they have a bad track record. But they are also the ones who enforce the rules. And remember that reptiles and inverts are new to the pet world, compared to cats and dogs. Sure their behind us, but that makes them slow, not blind. If some of us maybe, just maybe, tried educating instread of complaining.... Maybe it would change. 

Also, with the seal, did they have anyone who could come and deal with it? where was their nearest center? Do the RSPCA in your area have enough staff to answer every call right away? They should, but do they in reality? 

And if there were kids messing with the seal, did you just let them? Or did you try and help the seal? Or call the RSPCA and leave? 

Final point. yes, I would let them in. However I run a tight shop here. My BD is getting upgraded to a 5x2", I personally belive more space is better (with exception to my royal... fussy so-un-so) 

and if they decided something was wrong, they would have to prove it. really really well. but i know for a fact nothing is. :2thumb: Try education. if you know so much, go to your local RSPCA and tell them, "Hi, I would like to help you with your reptile cases, I have lots of experience and know everything about everything to do with reptiles and inverts, so I can teach you a lot" pretty sure they wouldn't complain tbh. 

just my 2 cents


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

i keep chickens and i eat chickens as do many other.

I keep insects if some one wants to eat one, ill let u if you want.

the rspca do do a lot of good i realise but they also dont do the right things at times or sometimes do the wrong thing.

the rspca series programs were shocking! tresspassing, removal of animals when they should be. 

what about a so called reptile shop in the north east that was found to have dead animals and unkept shop which both were taken to court and prosecuted and now they have gone back to court and its been thrown out!!! one one person allowed the problems to happen and that WAS the ower of the shop. 

The girl friend like watching all these programs i dont like it but do like seeing the bugs and stuff. 
I always think wow look at that diamond python hes just kicked with his foot! wish i had one of them!


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Nah they don't always get it right. But neither do I. We all make mistakes. Even the RSPCA. I'm not making excuses, but as someone else said, eduction, proper education, is the way to do it, not "they cant do it right" if their getting it wrong, let them know, and offer to help


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> you cannot put these spiders in a glass box and make them fight. No. you cant. end of.


And if they fight instead of mating are you guilty of a crime?



> I can't see how that would affect feeders at all imo.


Don't your feeders have rights too?kept in over crowded conditions etc.?



> Is it cruel that in korea they eat dog?


Or can it be cruel in the way it is killed?



> What about dona kebab? You know that's traditionally horse?


No because it's not Döner kebab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but I eat horse from time to time that is imported from France. very tastey.



> I don't have a 4 year old daughter, so if she stamped on a snail I'd be very, very worried


I would be too as I bet I would hve to clean her shoes!



> Serious question, how can you sit there and watch them force contestants to eat the same animal you keep as a pet? live?


Same way as I can catch and eat fish even though I have a fish tank full of fish.



> How can you know that they would?


Because that is what the RSPCA and things like them do.



> I would love to see more of a criterea for dog ownership.
> 
> I have a dog.
> 
> ...


Thats great I am very happy for you. I have other animals too and have nothing to hide but I still don't want an up their own arse RSPCA officer coming around saying what I can or can not do, just as much as I don't want some jacked up little police man coming around looking for stolen goods that I don't have.

You show me a good reason why your spiders are more important than feeder insects. because going down this road will I expect mean a total ban on keeping inverts as they need live inverts to feed on which would be cruel.


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Not sure.
> 
> Do you?
> 
> ...


Me and the cast of magnum


----------



## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Quite right Steve.
> 
> Now are we all past the name calling? I hope so. Back to the point.
> 
> ...


we called them as it was stranded on the beach and kids had attacked it and a stick was sticking out of it. they told us they didnt go out for seals. Normaly cos seals find there way back with the tide. told them it was injured and wouild die without help. still didnt want to come out told them if they didnt i would call local paper. they then agreed to send someone out but couldnt give a time. stayed there for couple of hours. but it died. no one came till a few days later. took it away dead. They could have tried to save the poor thing.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> i seriously don't think getting the government more into this issue is going to make life any better for us OR our creatures.
> 
> most animal rights laws in most countries...just don't work. they either cause detriment by misunderstanding entirely the animals' needs by anthropomorphising them, or they're simply useless.


I agree with this and thats me bye for now


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

the rapca are given set size enclosures for snakes so what happens to all the python keepers using RUBS that are therefore to small for their snakes in the rspcas mind.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

could you just pass me a beer and a crispy spider there, im feeling hungry and celebrity get me out of this is on!


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

I left for a bit coz it was getting too heated and I didn't want to start any arguments. 

Anyway. 

Baldpoodle - My apologies, apparently I was mistaken. thought it was, no idea why lol. 

And for the record, my feeders aren't over crowded 

I still stand by my view that feeders can be separated from pet inverts. 

Animalstorey - Thats terrible I agree, but playing the devils advocate here, but one area doesnt set the benchmark for all of them. Look at some of the [email protected] threads. 

And their set size enclosures, well, that comes back down to education doesn't it? if they knew the reasons and the logic, d oyou think it would be the same? "oh that snake is 6" long and in a 4" vivarium, thats too small" Simply too general a statment. I know my royal will get stressed if I put her in a massive tank. Education, education, education.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Baldpoodle said:


> Because I wouldn't want them taking a big interest in my inverts, as once that happens the penny starts rolling and before you know it you are up to your bumhole with lots of unnessary rules and regulations for keeping them.


Do you really need to bring bum holes into it! What would your mother think! 



Gaboon said:


> Good subject but I dont think anyone has mentioned that inverts dont have a central nervous system, only a collection of ganglion nodes which orientate its movement by relaying "information" between the body parts and the "brain".
> 
> They are incapable of feeling pain. They are physically not effected in a way vertebrates are.
> 
> ...


Sorry to quote myself but the above info is underlying the entire theory that inverts are lower life forms compared with vertebrates, hence not worthy of the same protection. This whole discussion is just an exercise in massaging morals you may or may not share. Welfare is inapplicable to inverts and to expect the RSPCA "king of all misguided views" to develop some kind of scheme or whatever to protect inverts, your simply backing a dead horse.

I used to burn insects with a glass, chop up worms, stamp on slugs and snails, I would drop other bugs into red ant colonies and watch the result. I was a complete terror to the invert communities where I lived but I would never have done anything similer to a vertebrate. It is inherent knowledge (at least I thought) that these animals are capable of suffering, emotive or not. 

In even used to eat dead slugs that had drowned in stale beer as a pest control method! Crab wars at the beach was fun, along with pelting them with stones . Kids stuff.


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## steveyruss (Feb 19, 2008)

Why would anyone want more government involvement in these kind of issues and how exactly would it help? Isn't anyone else tired of having to listen to whitehall pen pushers telling everyone how to brush their teeth? Can't you see that implementing animal welfare and rights on inverts would destroy the hobby? More government involvement = bad, they will eventually just ban it under public safety or something ludicrous. The government can't fix the schools, can't fix the hospitals, can't win the war in Afghanistan and has left monumental debt on the shoulders of every child that is born in this country for the next 5 decades, I don't want them to **** up what little is left. No thanks. Why when a few morons do something repulsive do people in this country back the government in blanket bans and force scrutiny upon the millions of decent people out there. Take a look at how the government here has handled guns in this country, a few shootings and they decide to blanket ban them on everyone hoping it will stop, problem solved they say.....suddenly gun crime is up ten fold lol! No keep away from my animals Gordon Brown I'm warning you.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Chill out.

The fella is only sending an e-mail.

And, let me ask this, is it better to send that e-mail, and get a formal response to it, than to make idle threats on You Tube?

Which?


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## MiniMonsters (Feb 24, 2009)

What has the bigger audience - some freaky youtube videos (which if we watch, we add hits too) or ITV I'm a celebrity??? I'm guessing ITV (but am happy to be corrected as I don't want to start searching for grim videos on youtube). And one person can make a difference - I recently had a very positive experience with the RSPCA, an emaciated (now sadly deceased) leopard gecko and a garden centre. I was wary of getting the RSPCA involved due to the negativity I've read on forums, but they acted promptly and appropriately with great consideration of what the best action would be. 

I agree that climate change and mass extinctions is a huge threat to inverts and us all, but I'm a celebrity does much to exploit and undermine habitat and wildlife, so why not pull them up on the obvious mistreatment of inverts, reptiles and mammals; none of which deserve to suffer for our entertainment, regardless of their experience of pain or not.


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

I understand what everyone's said... but it was only a email I sent. isn't going to change anything overnight. Probably not at all, especially as I asked for information. 

Gabboon - I don't know about you but I for one don't care if inverts feel pain as we do. I know they don't as such. Still dosen't change the fact they deserve the same respect anything else does, They were here first too remember. 

Steveyruss - chill man. I agree, the goverment fail in pretty much everything they do now a days. (and for the record, I wouldnt call that mess a war) I agree a blanket ban would be the end of, and I don't want that, neither do you, neither do any of us. 

And as I said, it's only a email asking for their stance on it. I didn't demand they change everything right now, and even if I did, do you really thing that would do anything? Anything like this needs more than one angry person to actually get it anywhere. Hence why I started this thread, to see what everyone else thought 
Keep away from opur country gordon brown, that what I say to that.

Hi Steve, back for more eh? lol. Cheers, again, I only asked for their views and the actual rules and regulations on it, not demanding drastic changes  

And I got irritated by the look at this threads I keep seeing. "I left them a angry comment" well, thats nice. That's going to help those inverts. And save them all, and their all going to run free in the jungle holding hands. -_-

MiniMonsters - I know. I'll bet you anything those shows have more viewers than youtube vids do. As a point, I am fully aware of what is happening in the world, the loss of habitat, the rapid decline in wildlife as a result. And I support any and all causes to put a halt to it. I do as much as I can. I can say that honestly. But IMO if we all had a little more respect for life, not just those nice cuddly animals, but all of them, maybe we wouldnt have such a ecological disaster on our hands. Besides, changing big things has to start somewhere. 

And MiniMonsters, welcome! Glad theres some fresh opinions out there. I love your phrasing of that. exploiting habitat and wildlife. Well put! thats exactly it. 

And no, nothing, nothing at all deserves to suffer for our entertainment. Spot on dude  

Glad you had a good experience with the RSPCA, too many people jump on the band wagon on here and assume it's always "they took this and it died" 

At the end of the day, it will take a monumental shift to halt climate change and stop habitat destruction. Nigh on impossible in actual fact. but this is getting off topic I think. 

No, I gotta say it. In my opinion, to stop habitat destruction and mass extinction, and climate change, we as a people would need to change everything. the way we live the way we work, the way we eat even. How many of you will do that? 

Sure we can try to do something about it, and I'm by no means saying we should give up, but these small steps like learning to respect all life are the first baby steps that a lot of people need to be taking before we can really do anything on a large scale. I know someone will blame the goverment, blame our leaders ect, and sure, they have a lot of responsiblity for it, but at the same time, so does the mum who lives in my old street who drove her kids the 100ft to school every day, and home every evening. And I mean 100ft. I could walk to the school before she could drive to it's car park. So does the guy with the coal fireplace, so does the fisherman, so do I

And so do you. 

Now, can we get back to the point please? I'd rather not stray too far from it lol. 
The idea that inverts dont feel pain, fair enough, I know that. They are by no means developed enough to have pain receptors. But does that really matter? 

If I was in a car accident, and lost all nerves from the neck down, does that make it ok to slice and stab and tread on, kick and crush my limbs? after all, I can't feel any pain right? I can't see how that's any different to be honest. Except I know, we are more aware and sentient ect. but still, I think my point stands. 

Fire away with the comebacks, I'm sure there'll be a few  Looking forward to seeing them, but I'm gunna go sleep lol.


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Gaboon said:


> Do you really need to bring bum holes into it! What would your mother think!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is hopefully why no legislation will be put in place...you would end up not being able to swat flies in your own house come summertime. And god help any that use those electric bugzappers!



steveyruss said:


> Why would anyone want more government involvement in these kind of issues and how exactly would it help? Isn't anyone else tired of having to listen to whitehall pen pushers telling everyone how to brush their teeth? Can't you see that implementing animal welfare and rights on inverts would destroy the hobby? More government involvement = bad, they will eventually just ban it under public safety or something ludicrous. The government can't fix the schools, can't fix the hospitals, can't win the war in Afghanistan and has left monumental debt on the shoulders of every child that is born in this country for the next 5 decades, I don't want them to **** up what little is left. No thanks. Why when a few morons do something repulsive do people in this country back the government in blanket bans and force scrutiny upon the millions of decent people out there. Take a look at how the government here has handled guns in this country, a few shootings and they decide to blanket ban them on everyone hoping it will stop, problem solved they say.....suddenly gun crime is up ten fold lol! No keep away from my animals Gordon Brown I'm warning you.


Totally agree :no1:

To bring dogs back into it...they brought in the DDA didnt they? Now look at all the local estates around England with the chavs getting hold of illegal pitbulls and breeding them indiscriminatley i could be wrong, but from a BBC program i watched awhile ago there are now more illegal dogfights and more Pits in this country than there ever were to the detriment of the animal. And look what thats done to the poor Staff(because of its similarity looks wise to a pit)...this is the most common dog to turn up in rescue centres up and down the country....Why?...because of the DDA and the image that created thanks to a knee jerk reaction from the government.

Ban it in this country and you will also make it more popular with people it shouldnt be popular with and drive it underground.

Also i dont think youtube is a uk site and the vids you are complaining about are asian i believe...How you gonna get around thier governments?? Or are you intending on censoring the entire internet?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Can I just say that despite harsh criticism of the RSPCA, I for one would rather they did exist, faults and all, rather than not.

Same goes for the SSPCA and the PDSA.

Not perfect.

Glad we have them, though.

Steve


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Can I just say that despite harsh criticism of the RSPCA, I for one would rather they did exist, faults and all, rather than not.
> 
> Same goes for the SSPCA and the PDSA.
> 
> ...


There are much better organisations than the money grabbing RSPCA out there...dogs trust for example (when it comes to dogs) and many others when it comes to other animal welfare.

When you have worked in that field and had to deal with the RSPCA's lack of care, for want of a better phrase...you will understand. : victory:

I will be happy when that particular one ceases to exist


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> There are much better organisations than the money grabbing RSPCA out there...dogs trust for example (when it comes to dogs) and many others when it comes to other animal welfare.
> 
> When you have worked in that field and had to deal with the RSPCA's lack of care, for want of a better phrase...you will understand. : victory:
> 
> I will be happy when that particular one ceases to exist


In principle, I am glad they exist.

For every negative story, I am sure I could find one with a positive story.

However, in the case of the RSPCA, they, I presume, by virtue of the word 'Royal', have the 'Royal seal'. Therefore, if you_ really_ feel that they are doing animals a disservice, and you have a wealth of facts, not heresay, to prove this, then perhaps that is something you could take on - not scrapping the RSPCA, but evolving it, if you like.

E mail the Queen.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> In principle, I am glad they exist.
> 
> For every negative story, I am sure I could find one with a positive story.
> 
> ...



im sure many have complained about the abuse of power, lack of care etc and yet nothing has been done..

I beleive even public prosecution has been considered in the case of the German shepards they killed with bolt guns

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...RSPCA-for-animal-cruelty-over-dog-deaths.html


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

You'd probably do better campaigning against I'm A Celebrity. That is killing large numbers of inverts purely for the entertainment of people! 

There's no feeder/pet argument there!


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Ozgi said:


> You'd probably do better campaigning against I'm A Celebrity. That is killing large numbers of inverts purely for the entertainment of people!
> 
> There's no feeder/pet argument there!



Campaign all you want...there is no legislation so therefore they can do it. Its also filmed in another country so im led to believe.

Again i wont be campaigning for the reasons i have mentioned before.

If you dont like it and feel that strongly...how about using the off button?


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

Muze said:


> Campaign all you want...there is no legislation so therefore they can do it. Its also filmed in another country so im led to believe.
> 
> Again i wont be campaigning for the reasons i have mentioned before.
> 
> If you dont like it and feel that strongly...how about using the off button?


I'm not gonna be campaigning about anything, I know it will fall on deaf ears.

But if somebody feels strongly about it why should they ignore it and not do anything?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Ozgi said:


> I'm not gonna be campaigning about anything, I know it will fall on deaf ears.
> 
> But if somebody feels strongly about it why should they ignore it and not do anything?


because of the reasons previously listed in this thread :bash:
it comes across as if people cant stop themselves from viewing a link or a tv program if they dont like what goes on ...there is such a thing as self regulation. Do you need the government to nanny everything?


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Cool it guys.... 

And I think the point that's trying to be made here is that sure, you can not watch it, that isn't hard, but it's still happening. I think it's the fact it's happenening which bothers people, not the watching it


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

Muze said:


> because of the reasons previously listed in this thread :bash:
> it comes across as if people cant stop themselves from viewing a link or a tv program if they dont like what goes on ...there is such a thing as self regulation. Do you need the government to nanny everything?


Lol, I can't be arsed to read through 12 pages of what is probably bickering and arguing.


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Ozgi said:


> Lol, I can't be arsed to read through 12 pages of what is probably bickering and arguing.


lol, it started hewading that way... but most fo it is pretty constructive actually, I'm suprised and very pleased 

Overall I think this thread is pretty clear of petty bickering, lets keep it that way guys


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## Crab Man (Oct 3, 2009)

Ozgi said:


> I'm not gonna be campaigning about anything, I know it will fall on deaf ears.
> 
> But if somebody feels strongly about it why should they ignore it and not do anything?


Come to think of it - didn't a few complaints get Jonathan Ross of the air a year or so back?
I think the best way around it would be individual complaints direct to ITV or whoever produces I'm a Celebrity...
From my experience petitions don't seem to make an iota of difference. I signed one a while back to open up farmers' fields to traction kiting (since a lot of beaches are now banned through governmental ignorance). According to DEFRA we come under the category of motor sports (?!) and therefore we have a detrimental effect on the subsidies the farmers get for keeping the fields in a certain condition. Petition reached the required amount of signatures ages ago. We still don't have any fields...


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> im sure many have complained about the abuse of power, lack of care etc and yet nothing has been done..


If at first you don't succeed...


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Ozgi said:


> Lol, I can't be arsed to read through 12 pages of what is probably bickering and arguing.


Mate, it was 12 pages about* you* and a suitcase, as it happens.

I stuck up for you.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Campaign all you want...there is no legislation so therefore they can do it. Its also filmed in another country so im led to believe.
> 
> Again i wont be campaigning for the reasons i have mentioned before.
> 
> If you dont like it and feel that strongly...how about using the off button?


If there weren't so many brain dead chimps that lapped up a diet of TV heroin, then there wouldn't be a demand for this type of thing, to start with.

Jmho, of course...


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> because of the reasons previously listed in this thread :bash:
> it comes across as if people cant stop themselves from viewing a link or a tv program if they dont like what goes on ...there is such a thing as self regulation. Do you need the government to nanny everything?


No.

But I DO expect the law to hand out respectable sentences for crimes of cruelty.

Dog fighting is a case in point, and cruelty. Sentences are way too light.

These generally aren't nice people, when away from their dog fighting.

Often, such activities are linked to drug dealing, and the sale of guns.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> These generally aren't nice people, when away from their dog fighting.
> 
> Often, such activities are linked to drug dealing, and the sale of guns.


Have you just watched Snatch?
I think you would be very very suprised at the majority of people who are involved with dog fighting and cock fighting come to that. 

Sure you get your ganster types but most are your everyday run of the mill averge person with the average job, then there are the very posh people who roll up in DB 9's etc just back from managing their companys.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> But I DO expect the law to hand out respectable sentences for crimes of cruelty.



In regards to Inverts (not including the ones in the Oceans) how are you defineing cruelty towards them? How are you defining how any inverts are suffering?
Just out of interest you understand.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> Have you just watched Snatch?
> .


I've seen the odd one...

Which do you refer to..?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> In regards to Inverts (not including the ones in the Oceans) how are you defineing cruelty towards them? How are you defining how any inverts are suffering?
> Just out of interest you understand.


I meant in ref to dogs, I made that clear, in that_ one_ post.

However.

Since you ask, in the end, it would not be up to me, or you for that matter, it would be up to those better qualified than_ either_ of us, to examine* all* the evidence, and make their judgement call.

We could_ start_ by arguing that a man feeding a Praying Mantis a cricket is not a forced fight, but feeding.

And that putting an OBT in a tank, where they cannot escape, with a Cobalt Blue, could maybe be seen, by some, as less of an attempt to feed, and more of an attempt to force a fight.


----------



## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

How about kids pulling legs off daddy long legs?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I meant in ref to dogs, I made that clear, in that_ one_ post.


I know, but being an invert part of the forum I wanted to disscuss inverts.:roll:



> Since you ask, in the end, it would not be up to me, or you for that matter, it would be up to those better qualified than_ either_ of us, to examine* all* the evidence, and make their judgement call.


Only I asked how YOU define it not how those better qualified define it.
But here is a catch...those I persume better qualified people have also classed inverts as "lower life forms" and as such do not have the same status in regards to cruelty and suffering etc are you now going to say these better qualified people are wrong?



> We could_ start_ by arguing that a man feeding a Praying Mantis a cricket is not a forced fight, but feeding.


But it is a forced fight how ever you look at it. The cricket is fighting for its life and it has no where to run due to it being inclosed in the container with the Praying mantis. It is also not unknown for the pray item to turn tables on the predator and wound or kill predator.



> And that putting an OBT in a tank, where they cannot escape, with a Cobalt Blue, could maybe be seen, by some, as less of an attempt to feed, and more of an attempt to force a fight.


Sure I think it would look more like an attempt to force a fight but on the other hand spiders will eat spiders and there is no difference for a spider to catch kill and eat another spider, than there is for a spider to catch, kill and eat a different invert. The only difference I can see is an emotional one that people have.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

wayne the pain said:


> How about kids pulling legs off daddy long legs?


lol and making a fly into a walk.:lol2:


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## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> lol and making a fly into a walk.:lol2:


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

wayne the pain said:


> How about kids pulling legs off daddy long legs?


He/she isn't an adult, therefore falls under the radar of being responsible for their actions. Up to age ten. After that, they are. In the example that you give, I think that lots of kids go through that phase, usually before ten, but they go through it. Then grow out of it. It is a minority of adults who pit T against Pede, etc. Different thing.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle, if you knew a friend who was fighting two T's tonight, would you say/do anything?

Would you be critical?

If so, why, given what you have written, be critical?

Would you be non plussed?

Would you go along, you know, just out of interest....?

Be honest, have you ever actually tried something close to this, yourself?


----------



## Defos (Jul 27, 2009)

Is it because they are not mammals people can't relate to them? Studies show that manta rays are probably amongst the most intelegent of fish but because they don't bark and do tricks they don't seem to feel pain and are treated as parts for bizzar cures that cure nothing. This is the mentality of the majority of people living today. The harsh thing is most of it is not their fault they just dont know any other way. 

You have people who keep rats as pets and probably could never kill a rat even if its chewing at there dustbins! ... an exterminator however does it for a living. Just different perspectives on certain creatures. Similar to creatures that live with you like roach infestations in america or camel spiders in the east. People who live with things take them for granted like people in the UK who squish spiders roaming and guarding their house from pests ...... makes you wonder.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

What legal status do snakes have?

What legal status do fish have?

Amphibians?

What is their generally accepted pain boundary?

Is it similar to mammals, or not similar?

Just curious.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Im still waiting for the OP and his supporters to answer a question i posed a while back:

All the fighting vids and alot of the youtube vids are asian in origin (not to mention that youtube isnt a UK site either). How do you plan to make the governments of these countries stop beetle vrs scorpion fights when we cant even do things like get them to take cat and dog of the menu? Or stop them from using dogs as shark bait...

As i said before its not just a question of convicing our government and changing our laws, which would just affect our exotics keepers so you didnt have to view these things (and then you would still be able to view them)...you would have to censor the internet, which i cant see happening somehow.

Oh and btw i rip the back legs off adult locusts before feeding them to my large adult Ts to reduce the chance of injury....am i guilty of animal cruelty??


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

All floored!

I do hope the RSPCA get back and you dont think me a complete ass if I request you put up any such a responce. The RSPCA perspective is allways very wise and highly informative!

















































Naaaaaaaaaaaaat!


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Im still waiting for the OP and his supporters to answer a question i posed a while back:
> 
> All the fighting vids and alot of the youtube vids are asian in origin (not to mention that youtube isnt a UK site either). How do you plan to make the governments of these countries stop beetle vrs scorpion fights when we cant even do things like get them to take cat and dog of the menu? Or stop them from using dogs as shark bait...
> 
> ...


Point one - The OP is merely speaking of what might be possible within this nation. I think that is fair enough, given that our lawmakers have no juristiction in those other nations that you mentioned.

Point two - the locust thing. Come on, you know that is different, but if makes you happy to keep playing the devils advocate role, fill yer boots!

(The OP may have a different view, of course)


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

So enlightenment I am obliged to answer your questions yet you do not answer mine. I see your only arguement is of an emotional and moral standpoint but never mind I will answer them nether the less.


> Baldpoodle, if you knew a friend who was fighting two T's tonight, would you say/do anything?


I would say or rather ask "why do you wish to fight your spiders?". I would do nothing as the spiders are not mine.



> Would you be critical?


Hard to be critical if I do not know his reasons. Maybe he gets off on it? Maybe he is curious? Maybe he is running bets and making money? Maybe there are 101 reasons that I do not know or can think of?



> If so, why, given what you have written, be critical?


Explain given what I have written. Are you reading what I have written with the view I am pro spider fights etc. because if you have then you have read my replies wrong. I will put you straight so you know where I stand on the spider vs other invert...I am indifferent to it.



> Would you be non plussed?


Again depends on the reason given. If for example he was jacking off in the corner while they fight, then yes I guess I would be at a loss for words but there are stranger sexual fetish's out there.



> Would you go along, you know, just out of interest....?


As long as it didn't involve the fetish above, then sure if he invited me. I wouldn't ask specifically to go and see it as it it is off no interest to me, but if he said "hey come round tonight for a beer or two, I'm going to fight two spiders." I would say "sure ok" as long as I had nothing else planned.



> Be honest, have you ever actually tried something close to this, yourself?


How you mean close? I have had many a male spider eaten during mating and had a male attack and kill a female twice does this count as close? I have put a little too large pray items in for spiderlings and juvs does this count as close? 



> What legal status do snakes have?
> 
> What legal status do fish have?
> 
> Amphibians?


What apart from *not* being allowed to be used as live food? Although I am unsure if this applys to fish?



> What is their generally accepted pain boundary?
> 
> Is it similar to mammals, or not similar?


At a guess it would be similar as they have quite a complexed nervous system and a compative brain size that, I suspect could deal with signals produced from a "pain" stimuli. A vet or similar could give you a much better answer though.



> Point two - the locust thing. Come on, you know that is different,


Why? Doing this is no different to ripping off another spiders legs before feeding it to your spider.

So fancy answering my questions now?


----------



## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> In regards to Inverts (not including the ones in the Oceans) how are you defineing cruelty towards them? How are you defining how any inverts are suffering?
> Just out of interest you understand.


Sorry I haven't been around for a bit, been busy. Anyway, I'll answer your question, it's a fair one. 

I personally would define it as using them as "props" in said TV shows, and forcing unnecessary fights. Pick as many holes in that as you like. I class necessary as ones involved in feeding, as that is, no matter how you argue it, natural. predator prey situation. Whereas T vs T really isn't all that natural is it? how many of these spiders we keep (well some of us do) actually hunt other T's? (serious q, I don't know) 

And I do agree Steve, whilst I wouldn't pull the legs of locusts come feeding time, I understand why someone would. just happens that everything I have that eats locust is considerably bigger than a locust, and is in no danger from one. 

And yes, I know full well we have no control over what people do in other countries. They have their own rules and things. Thats other countries though. My point is, it is perfectly ok to do it here. So here is the place I have a problem with. And I wasn't sure what country youtube's servers are based in. 

Gaboon, thanks for your wise and helpful input there. Your sarcasm is appreciated.


----------



## wayne the pain (Dec 28, 2007)

Hope throwing lobsters in boiling water is on your agenda too or does this come under "feeding"?


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I personally would define it as using them as "props" in said TV shows, and forcing unnecessary fights.


But is this willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to the inverts?



> Pick as many holes in that as you like. I class necessary as ones involved in feeding, as that is, no matter how you argue it, natural.


Keeping anything in a cage is unnatural. In nature everything has its chance of survival in you cage it doesn't. 



> predator prey situation. Whereas T vs T really isn't all that natural is it? how many of these spiders we keep (well some of us do) actually hunt other T's? (serious q, I don't know)


Being mainly ambush predators I would think they will catch and eat what ever they can over come. So I think due to the fact tarantulas are more often than not found in colonys, I expect it would be quite a common ocourance. Is there not a species of jumping spider (Portia sp. among other?) that specializes on other spiders?



> just happens that everything I have that eats locust is considerably bigger than a locust, and is in no danger from one.


Just so you know I had adult T. blondi have its abdomen punchured by the kick of locast that had just been caught by it. Interesting the spider just kept eating like nothing had happened all the while, its haemolymph driped out of its abdomen.

thanks for the reply btw


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

*rolls eyes* i don't agree with it, but we all know that is something completely different.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

wayne the pain said:


> Hope throwing lobsters in boiling water is on your agenda too or does this come under "feeding"?


An interesting one because although inverts, the Ocean going things seem to be a little different in their nervous system make up (if those are the right words for it).

Pain in crustaceans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> if he invited me. I wouldn't ask specifically to go and see it as it it is off no interest to me, but if he said "hey come round tonight for a beer or two, I'm going to fight two spiders." I would say "sure ok" as long as I had nothing else planned.


Okay, thanks for answering.

I know all that I need to now, and appreciate your honesty.

I haven't avoided any questions you might have, on purpose, so please, list them here again, and I will answer.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I know all that I need to now, and appreciate your honesty.


that sounds ominous and minatory.


> I haven't avoided any questions you might have, on purpose, so please, list them here again, and I will answer.


go back and quote I'm not going to do all your work for you.


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## MissG (Aug 1, 2007)

I thought it was to do with the fact that invertebrates don't have a complex nervous system, therefore don't suffer or feel (much) pain.


----------



## Guest (Nov 18, 2009)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> As another member put it on the most recent "I saw this" Thread, unnecessary suffering.


Thats totally fine, if you'd just like to provide some evidence that the subjects of the video are indeed suffering as you'd say that would be great. I'd even settle for evidence that the inverts involved in general are capable of this "suffering" you refer to, or that they can feel pain.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle, to be honest, I am not really interested in further dialogue with you.

No offence.

Thanks

Steve


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Ive just had a fair scroll through YouTube...cant find ANY British/UK invert fights..So your problem *is* with other countries governments. And yet again i will state you wont be able to censor the internet as you can still access illegal stuff on there should you want to anyway...making something illegal just drives it underground.

They only thing i can see for you to campaign against is that crap TV show, that is filmed in Oz i believe.

And if me feeding locust in the way i do is acceptable...how come they emit that brown stuff when i rip their legs off?? They cant like me doing it much....but i wont have them damaging the Ts they will be getting fed to, the Ts they are fed to are things like our AF P.tig with a 9inch LS but i wouldnt want to take any chances with something like her...especally not when they are hard to get hold of and cost approx £120 a pop. As baldpoodle says its a well known fact that locusts can damage any size T with their legs, so its a precaution myself and Roy take with all our Ts no matter what size or sp. I have even had them draw blood from me, so think about it.

And i think playing devils advocate is a good thing...think about it, it provides counter arguements, otherwise people would just accept one persons way of thinking...but what i am stating is the truth


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze.

I think the fella is aware of your position on this now.

But I'm sure he will be grateful that you took the time to tell him. Again.

:whistling2:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Muze.
> 
> I think the fella is aware of your position on this now.
> 
> ...



Maybe you might take heed of you own advice from now on then :whistling2:

Dunno what your problem is...but you seem to have a problem with a few posters on this thread if they dont subscibe to your way of thinking...

Cant get your own way, so result in insulting, being rude..or name calling?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Ouch - the hurt.

:whistling2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Dunno what your problem is...but you seem to have a problem with a few posters on this thread if they dont subscibe to your way of thinking...


I don't have a problem, per se.

It's just that you have asked the same questions, over and over, and they have been answered, over and over.

And my 'problem' with ONE other member is that he/she was disrespectful, for no real reason.

Thanks


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> or name calling?


Example?

Thanks


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> I don't have a problem, per se.
> 
> It's just that you have asked the same questions, over and over, and they have been answered, over and over.
> 
> ...


I really cant be bothered with you anymore..:whistling2:


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

:grouphug:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> I really cant be bothered with you anymore..:whistling2:


Translation = you cannot find one example on this thread, to support your allegation of name calling. As far as I can see, there is only one person that was culpable of that. Not me. Not you. Go figure.

See ya,

*waves*


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Baldpoodle, to be honest, I am not really interested in further dialogue with you.
> 
> No offence.
> 
> ...


Well that explains just about everything. What a cop out.:whistling2:
Or 
Translation = you can not support your arguement with any scientific fact.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Never argue with an idiot, Adam.
> 
> Those watching may not be able to tell the difference.



c'ya :welcome:

Correct me if im wrong...but thats you calling someone a name...

Now i'll leave you to argue with yourself


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

I am only interested in discourse with those that can offer some degree of respect. Having personal insults thrown my way, from some stranger on an internet forum,_ doesn't_ fit that.

Thanks


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> I am only interested in discourse with those that can offer some degree of respect. Having personal insults thrown my way, from some stranger on an internet forum,_ doesn't_ fit that.
> 
> Thanks



Practise what you preach then:whistling2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Practise what you preach then:whistling2:


I am being polite.

*You* accused *me *of using personal insults.

I used none.

And, as far as I can see, neither have you.

Are you this other person's PA?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Correct me if im wrong...but thats you calling someone a name...


Um, no, that is a good piece of advice for anyone.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> I am being polite.
> 
> *You* accused *me *of using personal insults.
> 
> ...


No im not this persons PA ...i dont even know them and have never even PM'd them.

Does that satify your paranoia? :lol2:

adlock:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Translation = you cannot find one example on this thread, to support your allegation of name calling. As far as I can see, there is only one person that was culpable of that. Not me. Not you. Go figure.
> 
> See ya,
> 
> *waves*



um let me see you said:-



> Every forum has their cyber mouth piece, I suppose.


refering to me.



> Never argue with an idiot, Adam.


refering to me.



> I meant the other member, who twisted something I said, and took it out of context.


confirming you ment me.

all I did was quote half your sentance. Because what you said in the first quote in that post is bloody ridiculas. After that I think I have been quite pleasent and gone to all the trouble of answering everything you put to me however stupid your questions were.
I think Muze has hit the nail on the head when he/she said.


> Dunno what your problem is...but you seem to have a problem with a few posters on this thread if they dont subscibe to your way of thinking...


I'm with Muze also as I can't be botherd either with such a one way conversation with someone who thinks they are a lot more clever than they really are.
Maybe if you back up you views with some good fact, instead of just expecting everyone to go along with you, you may be a little more interesting to talk to.
bye bye.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> um let me see you said:-
> 
> 
> refering to me.
> ...


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::no1:

Ps: im female


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> No im not this persons PA ...i *dont even know them* and have *never even PM'd them*.
> 
> Does that satify your paranoia? :lol2:
> 
> adlock:


 
Hmm, see, now you are imagining words on the screen which neither I, nor anyone else, has actually written.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Baldpoodle said:


> bye bye.


Are you done _now_?

Yes?

Thanks


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Hmm, see, now you are imagining words on the screen which neither I, nor anyone else, has actually written.


That was just to satisfy any curiosity/paranoia you may have..


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

SHEESH! I'm gone for what, 16 hours? And all you seem to do is bicker!! sheesh! Do I have to send you all to the naughty corners?? I'm gunna run out of corners....

I can't be here to keep you all seperate ALL the time you know.... 

Serously... calm down guys. That's like... 4 pages of pretty pointless argument. Should have seen this comming.. this is rfuk after all....

And in aswer to the calls for scientific proof or the like, I have none. That's why I started this thread. because I was intrested to see what everyone else has to say, whether they agree with me or not 

Oh, and having done a very quick google... I do have this: Can Insects Feel Pain?

See what you make of that


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> That was just to satisfy any curiosity/paranoia you may have..


I see.

Despite the fact that I never once mentioned, or even held either thought, for one moment.

Reads to me like _you_ entertained the idea far more than I did, so, in regard to 'paranoia'.....

Anyway, back to the OP.

I think all the fella is doing is constructing an e mail for the stance of the RSPCA, etc. Is that all he has done? I _think _so. But you wouldn't think so, not if you read back on one or two drama queen threads, on here.

Nope,* if* you fed into their histrionics, you would think he was writing to them to demand that no one keeps so much as an ant!


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

lol, Yeah, I haven't actually done anything. I dunno about you, but I can't see a little email with a question in it cahnging the postion of the RSPCA and such on anything.... A lot of posts do kinda read like tomorrow, everything will be different, and we wont be able to keep inverts, and they'll be comming to get them, and then the goverment'll be after them, then the soviets will, and then the world's gunna explode.... 

Sheesh. :/


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> lol, Yeah, I haven't actually done anything. I dunno about you, but I can't see a little email with a question in it cahnging the postion of the RSPCA and such on anything.... A lot of posts do kinda read like tomorrow, everything will be different, and we wont be able to keep inverts, and they'll be comming to get them, and then the goverment'll be after them, then the soviets will, and then the world's gunna explode....
> 
> Sheesh. :/


I wrote a letter to the council today, about a broken pavement.

Do you think I have created a monster?

What if they remove ALL pavements?

_Where_ will the children walk!

Will someone PLEASE think of the children.....:whistling2:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

By all means go to the RSPCA id love to know what their stance is....maybe its a laughable as the one on reptiles:whistling2:


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/hobby-issues-information/175837-rspca-reptile-report.html

If they cant get that right, tell me how they would have a chance at getting anything right about inverts?


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> By all means go to the RSPCA id love to know what their stance is


Good, Muze.

That's all I want, as well.

Their official stance.

I think that is all the OP wanted, as well.


Cheers,


Steve


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

Haven't got time to read all this but should there be cruelty laws that were applicable to invertebrates then I suspect all livefood producers would be unable to breed insects used for food, Fly spray would be outlawed, Rentokil closed down and the whole country infested with pest species and cockroaches.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

peterf said:


> Haven't got time to read all this but should there be cruelty laws that were applicable to invertebrates then I suspect all livefood producers would be unable to breed insects used for food, *Fly spray would be outlawed, Rentokil closed down and the whole country* infested with pest species and cockroaches.


And Muslims would Islamify the WORLD.

*You never know with the RSPCA, they COULD be an Islamic terrorist cell, in disguise*


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Good, Muze.
> 
> That's all I want, as well.
> 
> ...


You cant even quote me properly...you just take the bits out that suit you.

and as for your last statement...well that proves it all to me...

bye folks


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Bye then.

Thanks

Steve


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

enlightenment said:


> See ya *waves*





Muze said:


> Now i'll leave you to argue with yourself





Baldpoodle said:


> bye bye.





Muze said:


> bye folks





enlightenment said:


> Bye then.



Bye everyone :whistling2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

LOL.

Bye then.

Seriously.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Sorry, but it reminded me of a Laurel and Hardy film called "A Perfect Day".

"Goodbye!"
"Goodbye!"
"Goodbye, we're going now"
"I hope so"


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

garlicpickle said:


> Sorry, but it reminded me of a Laurel and Hardy film called "A Perfect Day".
> 
> "Goodbye!"
> "Goodbye!"
> ...


This sort of thing?


YouTube - Laurel & Hardy's House. Perfect Day


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## callum gohrisch (Jan 8, 2009)

true but i do like the show but not those bits


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

enlightenment said:


> This sort of thing?
> 
> 
> YouTube - Laurel & Hardy's House. Perfect Day


That'll be the one.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Hedgeend?

Fareham?

G/F from that region.

Wow, is this Hampshire day, lol...

:no1:


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

lol, dont forget me, basingstoke


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

WOW nearly 2000 views. That's my new record


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> lol, dont forget me, basingstoke


Bit rough there, I hear 

In Edinburgh, even our wino's turn their nose up at anything less than a tenner a bottle.

:lol2:


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Aye it is a little now. Used to be alright....

Wino's are no problem here, there aren't all that many, and they ain't fussy lol. it's those of a certain "type" who sit outside our local shops "mate, mate oi mate, buy me ****/booze/mags" 

You know what I mean 

And that's not the least of it


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Aye it is a little now. Used to be alright....
> 
> Wino's are no problem here, there aren't all that many, and they ain't fussy lol. it's those of a certain "type" who sit outside our local shops "mate, mate oi mate, buy me ****/booze/mags"
> 
> ...


Yeah mate, I know the sort you mean.

I was meeting someone a few weeks ago.

I happened to have my beautiful Staff with me.

One such type approaches me.

'Nice dog mate, is it a Staffie?', he asks.

'Yes', I reply.

'What kind?' he says.

Um.

The Stafford kind, f***nut.

*shakes head*


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

lol's! sounds about right. Though I've heard better. Was on holiday actually had one of our ferrets out (don't keep them any more, looonng story) anyway, someone walked up to me completely seriously, 

"wow, that's a nice squirrel!" 

:gasp::censor: 

I didn't even bother with a answer lol. 

Round here I heard chinchilla, rat, mouse, guinea pig, and i think once snake. Snake. Seriously. And most of them lived in my street. *shakes head* 

:lol2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> lol's! sounds about right. Though I've heard better. Was on holiday actually had one of our ferrets out (don't keep them any more, looonng story) anyway, someone walked up to me completely seriously,
> 
> "wow, that's a nice squirrel!"
> :gasp::censor:
> :lol2:


Mugs mate, total mugs...


:bash:


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

Yeahh... :whip:

I know a guy who has the perfect reply really....

"I WILL PIMPSLAP YOU!" 

:whistling2:


----------



## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Oh, and having done a very quick google... I do have this: Can Insects Feel Pain?
> 
> See what you make of that


Well if you had linked me to this

ScienceDirect - Cell : painless, a Drosophila Gene Essential for Nociception

I would have been a bit more impressed, as that reads like it is mainly based on/from a philosophy stand point which although interesting, it doesn't mean it's fact.:whistling2: But as you can read it still doesn't back the arguement that Inverts deserve and special protection rights.

Maybe this one would be a better read?
SpringerLink - Journal Article

I could throw this in the works 
SpringerLink - Journal Article
but I think it is comeing down to what you want to believe or not want to believe.

Either way you would have to come up with a very good reason as to why the protection rules for your tarantulas etc does not extend to the live food that they eat, which you have still failed to do.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Forget the RSPCA...i have found a home for all you insect rights peeps!

Atrocities

LMFAO!!!!

They even have a hitlist which include seagulls!

(note it is a joke site)


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> Forget the RSPCA...i have found a home for all you insect rights peeps!
> 
> Atrocities
> 
> ...


*blinks*

I just spotted this on it!

CED4: Insects as Sexual Fetish Objects


I'd hate to think what you had to punch into Google to find _that _site!

:whistling2:


----------



## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> *blinks*
> 
> I just spotted this on it!
> 
> ...


lol nothing dodgy for a change...:whistling2:

Just something like "insect rights" and it was the first one that appeared


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> lol nothing dodgy for a change...:whistling2:
> 
> Just something like "insect rights" and it was the first one that appeared


_I_ believe you, Muze...


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## MiniMonsters (Feb 24, 2009)

Just to let you know (now being a bit short of time having read through another 10 pages since I was last on here!), that thanks to this thread getting me thinking, I will be writing a letter to ITV & the producers of I'm a Celebrity (doesn't matter that it's filmed in Oz as it matters where the money comes from) explaining why I feel that the programme exploits wildlife and habitat and undermines the work I do in schools to encourage children (and adults) to have respect for all living things. I have a degree in animal behaviour and to me it doesn't matter what level of consciousness an animal has or its relative experience of pain. No animal should be knowingly injured or killed purely for entertainment - for a productive use such as food can depend on your personal standpoint - but just because humans think it's funny/interesting/exciting, no. I know there are many minute details that we could get into from fishing to riding a horse (which I'm about to go and do ), but I think the argument in the case of this specific programme is fairly cut and dry.

Kate
MiniMonsters Creepy Crawly Roadshow and Climate Change Education


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

MiniMonsters said:


> Just to let you know (now being a bit short of time having read through another 10 pages since I was last on here!), that thanks to this thread getting me thinking, I will be writing a letter to ITV & the producers of I'm a Celebrity (doesn't matter that it's filmed in Oz as it matters where the money comes from) explaining why I feel that the programme exploits wildlife and habitat and undermines the work I do in schools to encourage children (and adults) to have respect for all living things. I have a degree in animal behaviour and to me it doesn't matter what level of consciousness an animal has or its relative experience of pain. No animal should be knowingly injured or killed purely for entertainment - for a productive use such as food can depend on your personal standpoint - but just because humans think it's funny/interesting/exciting, no. I know there are many minute details that we could get into from fishing to riding a horse (which I'm about to go and do ), but I think the argument in the case of this specific programme is fairly cut and dry.
> 
> Kate
> MiniMonsters Creepy Crawly Roadshow and Climate Change Education


Hi Kate, good on you for showing the initiative.

Please keep us updated on their response,

Steve

: victory:


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

MiniMonsters said:


> Just to let you know (now being a bit short of time having read through another 10 pages since I was last on here!), that thanks to this thread getting me thinking, I will be writing a letter to ITV & the producers of I'm a Celebrity (doesn't matter that it's filmed in Oz as it matters where the money comes from) explaining why I feel that the programme exploits wildlife and habitat and undermines the work I do in schools to encourage children (and adults) to have respect for all living things. I have a degree in animal behaviour and to me it doesn't matter what level of consciousness an animal has or its relative experience of pain. No animal should be knowingly injured or killed purely for entertainment - for a productive use such as food can depend on your personal standpoint - but just because humans think it's funny/interesting/exciting, no. I know there are many minute details that we could get into from fishing to riding a horse (which I'm about to go and do ), but I think the argument in the case of this specific programme is fairly cut and dry.
> 
> Kate
> MiniMonsters Creepy Crawly Roadshow and Climate Change Education


I agree with may of your points here - I just hope they don't reply with an insulting cover all letter.


----------



## crestiefan (Nov 5, 2009)

I'm a celebrity is'nt even any good!!


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> I agree with may of your points here - I just hope they don't reply with an insulting cover all letter.


Do you mean a sort of patronising, general letter?

That sort of thing?


----------



## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Do you mean a sort of patronising, general letter?
> 
> That sort of thing?


I suspect they will just refer to the fact that they have on site vets to ensure animal welfare, highly trained, compassionate individuals etc. Then to finish a blurb about how the comments have been noted and thanks for watching the show / taking the time to write. Usual crap they write.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

bugs are little more than mindless machines.

not that mindless machines/bugs can't be nice... but c'mon.... bug rights?

what's next?... the society for the prevention of cruelty to bacteria?


be kind to a plant day?













...


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> I suspect they will just refer to the fact that they have on site vets to ensure animal welfare, highly trained, compassionate individuals etc.* Then to finish a blurb about how the comments have been noted and thanks for watching the show / taking the time to write*. Usual crap they write.


Aye, it will probably be something along those lines.

But it is still worth a try, I guess.

Steve


----------



## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

HABU said:


> be kind to a plant day?
> image...


On a global level, doesn't this_ already_ happen?

Rain forests, etc?


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> On a global level, doesn't this_ already_ happen?
> 
> Rain forests, etc?


 that i imagine would be more of a "be kind to an ecosystem day"... than a plant thing...

... not quite 'adopt a cactus' or the sort...

'ficus rescue'... 'be kind to dandilion day' ...


----------

