# Hamm Disaster!



## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

Like you may have read on captivebred, we were shocked to find a polybox of dead snakes this morning after getting them home...

They were packed safely but we think they have been overheated on the coach (put somewhere too hot) - we did not put the box on the coach the people in charge did.

My dads been before (the snakes are my dads) and packed them the same way everytime and they have been fine. The snakes were from muiltiple breeders at the Hamm show yesterday and were fine when bought.

We also had another polybox with geckos in. They are fine, thank god! Apart from the baby one which was also found dead...

We were on coach 2 by the way, has this happened to anyone else? If it has will you please reply to this or message me


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## boabloketony (Jan 22, 2007)

That's awful


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## jonnydotcom (Sep 8, 2006)

Once again sorry for your losses.
i was on the same coach an mine were ok just a bit cold.


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## kelly (Mar 3, 2006)

so sorry  that must be so awful


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## jonnydotcom (Sep 8, 2006)

If you dont mind me askin were on the coach was you sat?
an were abouts in the hold was your boxes


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

OH no im so so sorry for your loss.. thats so sad

ive just read the captive bred postings.... thats really horrific.. has anyne got to the bottom of what happened yet?? 

details would be helpful so this never happens to anyone again whoevers fault it was ???

were the coaches supposed to have adequate heating and was that the responsibility of the organisers.. if so have you mesaged them to see if theres a way you can work out what happened. i know it doesnt bring the snakes back but im wondering if your snakes were already heated??? were they?? and then placed in the warmest part of the holding area in the coach if thats why it happened...

was the heating for the reptiles meant to have been spread evenly on the holding reptile area of the coach so there were no hot spots or freezing spots.. 

or was that the responsibility of each individual on the coach>>>


again im sorry


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

I asked in other post, 'its unlikely but were majority of snakes from same breeder'?


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

we were on the top near the back
and we don't know where the boxes were placed cos it was one of the guys in charge that put them there.. all i know is it was somewhere to the right of the hold.

thank u sparkle  
erm, as far as we knew the hold was meant to have adequate heating, meaning no heat mats were needed (depending on what type of reptile you got of course).


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

Philcw said:


> I asked in other post, 'its unlikely but were majority of snakes from same breeder'?


oh sorry phil, no they weren't from the same breeder


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## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

how packed and seled was the box, did you put airholes in it, because that amount of animals would use the oxygen very quick. i have brought back 20+ animals worth €2500+ and havent lost one, and that box was right on the hotest spot as jase boa and young gun will tell you how hot the box was when we grabbed and opend it. but they are all fine. i think by the sounds of it that it was an oxygen factor.


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Before we all get carried away, i think we need to give the coach organisers time to speak to the individuals concerned to try and find out what has happened. There is little any of us can do know as most of us were not there. I have already spoken to several people from the 2 different coaches and they have had no losses. 

It is very sad though, whatever had caused it.


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

Snakes r grreat said:


> Before we all get carried away, i think we need to give the coach organisers time to speak to the individuals concerned to try and find out what has happened. There is little any of us can do know as most of us were not there. I have already spoken to several people from the 2 different coaches and they have had no losses.
> 
> It is very sad though, whatever had caused it.


Yeah I understand that, I just want to know if this has happened to anybody else.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

how was everyone reassured about the hold area.. was it explained how it would be heated and were temps looked at at regular intervals throughout the journey by the organisers..

OVER heating then freezing drops could be a reason ... and combined with the sellers way of packing etc...

ideffo get a hold of the oragnisers im sure they can help.... im sure noone meant for this to hjappen...

it might not even be their fault.. but then again maybe proper checks werent carried out on the journey home and maye something could be learned for future trips


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## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

Jake89 said:


> how packed and seled was the box, did you put airholes in it, because that amount of animals would use the oxygen very quick. i have brought back 20+ animals worth €2500+ and havent lost one, and that box was right on the hotest spot as jase boa and young gun will tell you how hot the box was when we grabbed and opend it. but they are all fine. i think by the sounds of it that it was an oxygen factor.


the temps were recorded last time the trip was organised if i remember rightly and young gun had something strapped to the outside of his box to monitor and record the highest and lowest temps in the hold if i remember rightly. i mean the temps couldnt of changed that much as freeky geeky bought some geckos that are ment to be the hardest to keep and if the temps rises or drops just afew degrees then they die! also my box was put right next to the heat source and i no it must of brn the hotest and all mine are still alive! I would look into the oxygen thing, i think you may of sealed them too well with out holes.
Jake


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

hopefully the post mortem will show something. they all had air holes


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## titch (Aug 9, 2006)

Really am sorry for your loss!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

hmm this is just so sad...

if you can find if anyone else had losses thats animals were packed differently maybe that would help.. i know its awful to look for more losses but its important i guess...


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

Thank you for the concern I will keep you updated!

We are having no luck in getting in touch with the organisers at the mo.


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## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

sparkle said:


> hmm this is just so sad...
> 
> if you can find if anyone else had losses thats animals were packed differently maybe that would help.. i know its awful to look for more losses but its important i guess...


we all took charge of packing, sealing and ensuring there was enough air of our own boxes, all the others did was load them, i was helping load at one point and the boxes were looked after and treated carefully.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Wow, really sorry to hear of your loss. It must be awful for you.:sad:
Just out of interest, where were the airholes on your box? Just thinking that if they were in the lid and the boxes were stacked.......? May be way out, just guessing.
More deaths on coach 2 have been reported on Captivebred too.:sad:

Again, sorry about your losses.


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## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

fairee said:


> Thank you for the concern I will keep you updated!
> 
> We are having no luck in getting in touch with the organisers at the mo.


i think they are in bed, ste is ment to ring me when he wakes up as he left afew of his own boxes on the coach and now i have them with me (AND NOT GIVING THEM BACK AFTER THE BULLYING I TOOK LOL)


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred :: View topic - HAMM MARCH 2008 - A DISASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

last post on page 2. someone else has had the same problem


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## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> Wow, really sorry to hear of your loss. It must be awful for you.:sad:
> Just out of interest, where were the airholes on your box? Just thinking that if they were in the lid and the boxes were stacked.......? May be way out, just guessing.
> More deaths on coach 2 have been reported on Captivebred too.:sad:
> 
> Again, sorry about your losses.


Can you post the link so i can have a look please


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

http://www.captivebred.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18726&highlight=


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

fairee said:


> hopefully the post mortem will show something. they all had air holes


In the poly Box ? That ammount of animals would need a lot of ventilation. I have been on the hamm show once and enjoyed it but I did not buy anything as I am aware that to put your animals in a polybox in a coach hold has an element of risk.

The organizers do a fab job and I know that they do everything to help everybody.

Does anybody put any min/max thermometer's in their boxes ? I would as you can have a trial run as you go out there.

I think next time everybody should have a thermometer in there box and then If there were any alarming temps going out there then something might be able to done about it on the way back.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

I think that the guys who run this do an excellent job this is purely an accident i am sure of that ! i was thinking of being on the next trip 
myself and this wont stop me .i would like to learn the reason for the deaths though


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

perhaps an exhaust leekage or somthing can they test the fumes in the holds?


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

we were on that trip and all ours are fine 




luke


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

SteveL said:


> perhaps an exhaust leekage or somthing can they test the fumes in the holds?


 
if it was fumes would not everything in that hold be dead


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## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

clive1973 said:


> if it was fumes would not everything in that hold be dead


yea most things would be, i think it is vebtilation anf oxygen that has killed these


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

fairees dad

it was my snakes that died. all i can think is there is a hot spot in the luggage hold on the coach, and any animals that have been up against this will have overheated. after all the engine is at the back of the bus next to the luggage hold. we may have packed these snakes into the box but we did not load them onto the coach.


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## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

not sure how you pack the animals, but if you used a heat pack, can it go wrong... ie split, be faulty? I believe I heard they can give off toxic fumes, and that would be isolated to one box.... just a thought?
Sorry for your losses.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

Jake89 said:


> yea most things would be, i think it is vebtilation anf oxygen that has killed these


depending on where the boxes were i tend to agre, im just trying to work this out maybe when we find out how many have died we can work out where they were stored in the coach then come to a conclusion sadly theres other people sayin there animals are also dead


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

Jake89 said:


> yea most things would be, i think it is vebtilation anf oxygen that has killed these


 
well they are having a post Morten so we will have to wait. I truly can't think of anything worse then opening a box and finding all those animals dead. Absoulutley gutting.

Lessons will be learnt from this but unfortunately I feel that this thread is going to get a lot more posts then the Hamm review and that is very sad for everybody concerned.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

rigsby said:


> fairees dad
> 
> it was my snakes that died. all i can think is there is a hot spot in the luggage hold on the coach, and any animals that have been up against this will have overheated. after all the engine is at the back of the bus next to the luggage hold. we may have packed these snakes into the box but we did not load them onto the coach.


 
thats what i sugegsted earlier.. a hot spot in the hold

how any temp readins were taken... with stored boxes IN the hold beforehand..

temps would not be correct if taken without a ful load of poly boxes and other sotrage containers to mimic the airflow when the hold was fully packed...

how many thermometres were in the hold and if there was only one on outside could that mean that the reading was coming from only one place inside..
which would be inaccurate i guess to cover all the spots>>>>

id also liek to know why this happened as my friend whos going to hamm and thinking of using a coach doesnt use forums.. so i can pass on the info to her... thanks


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

SteveL said:


> depending on where the boxes were i tend to agre, im just trying to work this out maybe when we find out how many have died we can work out where they were stored in the coach then come to a conclusion sadly theres other people sayin there animals are also dead


where are they saying that Steve ?


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Hey All,

Sorry to hear about the losses but just a couple of quick questions Did you use heat packs in the boxes with the Dead animals in.

Also I had 32 Leopard geckos in my box also some albino burmese pythons and a few other bits and pieces and not one is dead. 

The deaths could of been caused by multiple things one being dehydration considering they are at the show for hours upon hours then the long trip home. This is certainly not the coach organisers fault in anyway shape or form. 

Im afraid its a risk everyone runs whilst going on the Hamm Trip and the organisers make people well aware of that.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

clive1973 said:


> where are they saying that Steve ?


Rigsby above mate i was replying when he had posted


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

RIght

At this stage i am not making comment on what has happened.

However, Steves contact phone now has a flat battery, as does mine from making so many calls to eurro tunnel on the friday to ensure we still got ther dispite the delat on the motorways.

I have not long got up but have pm fairee to contact steve direct on his landline.

Tony


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

i guess the best thing to do now is wait and see what they say.. it may have been nothing to do with the hold.. and then again it may have been....

its one of those hang fire sitations .. but in the middle of it al are these animals that didnt make it and thats very very sad


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

SteveL said:


> Rigsby above mate i was replying when he had posted


 
Rigsby is fairees dad so I take it it is the same group of animals


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

yes so i see the other guy is called slippy or somthing 

i think its best that this thread is locked and the people with problems contact the organisers etc


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

SteveL said:


> yes so i see the other guy is called slippy or somthing
> 
> i think its best that this thread is locked and the people with problems contact the organisers etc


Agreed


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

not agreed

we need to know if this has happened to anybody else you see..


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

SteveL said:


> yes so i see the other guy is called slippy or somthing
> 
> i think its best that this thread is locked and the people with problems contact the organisers etc


 
Yes I agree but It is very important that the Post mortem be published so we can try and stop this happening again.

Please lock this thread if the anti "buying a reptile from a non uk breeder " get hold of this there will be hell to pay


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

If this has happened to anyone else then they can PM PJ or TB direct so then this thread can be locked.


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## bloodcorn (Jul 29, 2007)

My snakes were fine when I arrived home, which coach were you on and what stop did you get off?


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

neminf said:


> My snakes were fine when I arrived home, which coach were you on and what stop did you get off?


coach two and we got off at leeds


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

jonnydotcom said:


> Once again sorry for your losses.
> i was on the same coach an mine were ok just a bit cold.


Same here, mine are fine, they were just a bit cold when I took them out of the box.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

fairee said:


> not agreed
> 
> we need to know if this has happened to anybody else you see..


 
I agree with not locking this thread for the moment.

Reasons for this do need to be looked at, but any conjecture as to the cause by anyone is not really helpful to any party.

It is truly sad when any animal dies, let alone so many.

I have already pm'd jody, but as yet she has not contacted Steve.

Until we make contact, there is nothing else we can say.

Tony


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

i think conjecture is a natural progress in human thought when any confusing upsetting occurance happens.. we look for reasons..

however im sure fairee and her dad wil post them as soon as they have them


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> I agree with not locking this thread for the moment.
> 
> Reasons for this do need to be looked at, but any conjecture as to the cause by anyone is not really helpful to any party.
> 
> ...


Yeah thanks Tony for the number : victory:. He hasn't been answering his phone so we are going to leave it for a bit and try again soon


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your loss, must be devistated


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

fairee said:


> Yeah thanks Tony for the number : victory:. He hasn't been answering his phone so we are going to leave it for a bit and try again soon


 
Make sure your calling the right number i sent you in pm, his mobile is flat, but home phone is fine as he has had calls this afternoon.

I know that we have no missed calls as i am at his place right now.


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## Redbelly (Aug 20, 2007)

So sorry for your loss,all my chameleons were fine and there a bit tricky to transport sometimes.
Did you use heat pads?? Maybe you box was placed next to the bulkhead of the engine and got very hot.
Maybe some kind of insurance is in place,im sure you will have all the paper work to prove the cost ect...
Hope this gets resolved for you...
Luke


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

its okay for people to comment on the organisation of the trip i normally check my animals every few hours when i go ,this time it was almost impossible as there was that many crammed into the hold and no space whatsoever in the coach. there were air holes in the box and my other box which had as many animals per square inch in all were fine. The animals had already started to stink so had been dead for some time


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## ukgeckos (Apr 11, 2007)

My box was on top by the door and I checked them as i loaded them into the car and they were not hot at all, I know who I traveled with had his box on the otherside of the hold and lost most of his
sorry for your losses


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Thats awful - sorry for your loss. 

Traveling along way with animals does have its disadvantages (Sp?) but to lose them all is a suprise !


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

aww this must be sooo gutting  I don't know if it helps? i know this don't help with heat but we take a small amount of avipro and milk bottle lids and a syringe we make it up whilst in hamm and give all the reps a drink before we set off.

It does lower the stress of travel a little 
p xx


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

fairee said:


> its okay for people to comment on the organisation of the trip i normally check my animals every few hours when i go ,this time it was almost impossible as there was that many crammed into the hold and no space whatsoever in the coach. there were air holes in the box and my other box which had as many animals per square inch in all were fine. The animals had already started to stink so had been dead for some time


this is the reason why io asked IF the anmals were cramemd in had the folk organising it actually recorded temps in a situation like this BEFORE you returned



its only a thought but with reduced airflow and cramming in of boxes surely the readings would be very different at various points within the hold than they would have been without these animals there...

readings can change very easily regarding temps... air flow.. amount of boxes. whether the boxes themseves were heated or not and where your box were positioned..

did the organisers limit the amount of animals the passengers could take home??

.. were the spaces allocated in the hold adequate and was each box with air-holes 100% not covered up in any way by the box next to it or on top of it..???

were there spacers inbetween each box to let air flow easily.. ???

im only asking as these are the questions my friend who had planned to book 6 seats on a later hamm trip using a coach wants to know.. she was planning to go to the next hamm you see...

shes re-thinking coaches but obviously if the hold area was totally fine with no worries about temps.. air-flow or cramming then thats all cool..

and id surely imagine ANY organiser would have covered all of that...

fairee have you any idea how to boxes were placed in and if there were themrometres at all corners and possible hot spots within the holding area.. were there air coolers incase of overheating and were their any alarm devices to alert people if indeed there was an overheating issue???


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Right
I am Tony, one of the organisers.

I sure agree that conjecture helps no one.

Graham has now spoken to Steve and we are looking at geting a firm cause of death.

Once we find this out, we will of course be working closely to avoid this happening again if possible.

It wont help Graham, us or future passengers if people keep throwing possible reasons around. 

Graham and his family have suffered a great loss, the full reasons for which are not yet known, no one involved needs any additional problems.

With regard to the space available and checking animals, its goes with out saying that the coach was full, and the hold was also full. There would have been more space had it not have been for a huge rack!. in addition, its against guide lines to disturb animals in transit.

Until a cause of death has been found be the vets, its not a help to anyone to throw accusations etc around.

If the deaths were a result of error of ours or the coach company, or some fault, then although the animals cant be brought back, the insurance companies will be involved.

So, please everyone, leave this now, lets find out what the cause of death was, then go forward from there.


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## the-reptile-mafia (Jan 4, 2008)

I think maybe that you shouldnt be allwoed to bring back racks/stack and vivs to give the animals kore space ion future :S


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your loss thats quite a lot of reps to lose. 

I had a similar experience on my trip last march, no aircon on the coach at all so it was like an oven. My polybox could not go into the hold due to it being full so was in a seat the 3 snakes I had bought didn't make the trip back. It was a different scenario to this but I do know anyone who took that trip probably remembers how uncomfortably hot it was.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

the-reptile-mafia said:


> I think maybe that you shouldnt be allwoed to bring back racks/stack and vivs to give the animals kore space ion future :S


good idea

as for not disturbing animals there is not necessarily a need to.. just a way to check temps constantly at enough different poinits in the hold to keep it safe.. technology is advanced enough to do this now...

im sorry if ideas and thoughts are not welcome.. i understand this is upsetting for everyone... and wndering may cause more upset but its a natural way for people to be... im sure the people who are requseting we do not conject are also in private ondering so maybe for now thats more apporpraite... non public conjecture regarding reasons and possible causes...

i for one am not accusing anyone .. it could be nothing to do with the hold.. as ive said.. 



however i think its natural that people are wondering and asking.. but of course until the post mortem results are in there may not be an answer

the thing is as we all know with post mortems they dont always yield 100% positives..

so therefore questions and answers may have to be sought elsewhere AFTER the post mortem/ mortems

waiting to do this after the post mortem is fine as long as its ok to do it then


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

sparkle said:


> this is the reason why io asked IF the anmals were cramemd in had the folk organising it actually recorded temps in a situation like this BEFORE you returned
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sparkle, its a coach. Not a specilised animal transport vehicle.

Yes we have checked temps in holds of different coaches, one of our passengers done just that himself and confirmed our readings.

The coach from scotland is a new coach to us, but of the same make and model of a past one.

Your whole post kinda leans towards Steve and I being total plonkers who dont give a sh*t and just rammed on as much as we could, with no though to anyone. 

Its is plainly clear that poor graham and jody , and will, have had a loss. There were however hundreds of animals transported back with no issues whatsoever, so it clear that your thoughts are way off base. Whatever did happen, effected only two boxs.

Maybe its best to hold off until we have had PM results and we know what happened.

If your friends what to ask questions about future trips, they are welcome to do so, or indeed ask you to do so on thier behalf. However, I dont feel that your comments are warented on this thread.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Sparkle, its a coach. Not a specilised animal transport vehicle.
> 
> Yes we have checked temps in holds of different coaches, one of our passengers done just that himself and confirmed our readings.
> 
> ...


no problem...

i appologise sincerely and shall refrain from making any comment or suggestion about anything... 



it seems its fine to question some peopel about details and not others on this forum..


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## fairee (Dec 30, 2007)

I feel like i've caused a load of agro here. I am just concerned about the animals and how it happened, obivously, because we spent a fair bit of money. 

I am not trying to point fingers at anybody or anything. I started this thread to see if this happened to anybody else and not just us.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Sparkle, its a coach. Not a specilised animal transport vehicle.
> 
> .


 
thats fairly obvious id say...

i shall refrain from posting anything more and others can decide if they wish to transport their animals this way in the future

sorry for making what i thought may have been suggestions regarding air flow and spacers..


everyones looking for a reason and i think i made it clear it may not be the fault of the hold area..

but again we dont know...

i hope its not anything to do with the transport.... 
for everyone concerned


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## Robbie (Dec 4, 2006)

sparkle said:


> no problem...
> it seems its fine to question some peopel about details and not others on this forum..


Thats below the belt. You didn't have the same idea when a certain Paramyxo cry went out...


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

fairee said:


> I feel like i've caused a load of agro here. I am just concerned about the animals and how it happened, obivously, because we spent a fair bit of money.
> 
> I am not trying to point fingers at anybody or anything. I started this thread to see if this happened to anybody else and not just us.


Jody, you are not causing problems, not at all. You and Graham have cause to be upset and to say so on here or anywhere else. You guys have our numbers and emails, any questions etc, please do let us know.

I just have a problem with people who seem to be full of good ideas, and whom seem to want to point the finger at someone with out knowing anything.


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## Hamish (Jun 17, 2007)

hey guys, very sorry to hear about your loss. 
once the pm results are back i hope you will let us know as this seems very unusual. my box was one of the closest to the rear of the coach where the hottest part was and as i went all the way to edinburgh was 1 of the last to come off and i am glad to say that i had no fatalities. 
as to those guessing what the probs were, this is pointless let the pm do what its ment to rather than scaremongering.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

lol, just reread a post regarding asking if we limited the number of animals people could bring back.

If the person who made that comment was truly interested in info for her friend, maybe she would have read the hamm thread and would have seen that we did indeed put limits on. And took an unholy amount of crap over it from a lot of people who wanted to get whatever they wanted.

Also, before any one jumps on the bandwagon, no, jodies box was NOT over packed.


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## Hamish (Jun 17, 2007)

fairee, i helped unload the boxes at leeds can i ask what you look like so i can put a face to name?


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Tony YHPM with the recorded temps.

I can tell you for a 100% fact that your animals haven't over heated as I monitored the temps of the hold for my personal information as I brought back some extremely fragile (temps wise) snakes, there was an extremely small fluctuation over the 24hr period my digital and TN2 checked against thermometer/hygrometer measured.

Not a single animal of mine was iffy, and I also had a number of inverts in my box which are far more likely to die from large fluctuations in temp than any reptile I know of.

When me and Jake89 unloaded his box the temps were almost perfect as the rest of the boxes will have been in the hold.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

just got a phoen call from(hvaent read all this )
but all his geckos died, including some very rare expesive geckos!
GIANT phantastics, a pair of. only one breeder in europe.
a pair of normal phantastuicus (brother and sister to our pair)
and a pair of cat geckos.

my other friend lost his baby viper , such such a shame


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> just got a phoen call from(hvaent read all this )
> but all his geckos died, including some very rare expesive geckos!
> GIANT phantastics, a pair of. only one breeder in europe.
> a pair of normal phantastuicus (brother and sister to our pair)
> ...


Baby Viper !???? I thought DWA animals were not allowed !


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

freekygeeky said:


> just got a phoen call from(hvaent read all this )
> but all his geckos died, including some very rare expesive geckos!
> GIANT phantastics, a pair of. only one breeder in europe.
> a pair of normal phantastuicus (brother and sister to our pair)
> ...


Is that Will? 

If so we know about him, its on here and NOT another case.

You got some of the same species didnt you?

If so how are yours?

Young gun has posted his independant temp records for the coach yours were on, had we have been aware that these other geckos we being brought back, we would have afforded him the same level of care you got, ie checking the temps out wards to ensure your delicate species got back ok.

Its also, regrettable, but there will always be animals that die in transit, we do everything we can to reduce this, but, as harsh as this may sound, animals take to transport differently and with out specilist vets checks we can not be 100% sure as to thier condition b4 travel.

Jodies case is rather different from the above, and as such is being treated differently, there has to be a reason why all the animals in that one box died, when the boxes around it were fine.


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

clive1973 said:


> Baby Viper !???? I thought DWA animals were not allowed !


Probably not DWA. Could be a Viper Boa:whistling2:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

every single one of ours are fine, he got brother and sisters to ours...
all ours were fine, not to cold not to hot. Thank you to you young gun, diablo etc etc etc for teh care of our polybox, muchly appriciated. the temps on our coach were perfect 

and to people that saw me cry my eyes out at cambridge... dont laugh...
and to the guy i think was called 'peter' thank you for helpingme, thank you very muhcly. 

p.s viper gecko,, - from a different guy.. martin -- its head was bent backwards, mayeb had a fit?




purejurrasic said:


> Is that Will?
> 
> If so we know about him, its on here and NOT another case.
> 
> ...


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## cannotstopbuyingballs (Dec 29, 2007)

fazer600sy said:


> Probably not DWA. Could be a Viper Boa:whistling2:


 
I see, did not know that


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

clive1973 said:


> Baby Viper !???? I thought DWA animals were not allowed !


nah, lol, a baby viper gecko.

and DWA was allowed under strict conditions, conditions that no one asked about or took up.


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

clive1973 said:


> Baby Viper !???? I thought DWA animals were not allowed !


I think you will find it was a baby viper gecko.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

freekygeeky said:


> every single one of ours are fine, he got brother and sisters to ours...
> all ours were fine, not to cold not to hot. Thank you to you young gun, diablo etc etc etc for teh care of our polybox, muchly appriciated. the temps on our coach were perfect
> 
> and to people that saw me cry my eyes out at cambridge... dont laugh...
> ...


 
Thats great Gina, pleased yours were fine.

When we are asked about something special, we do try to help as much as possible and this is proved in your case. Its unfortant that we were not made aware of the other _upp._ geckos, we may have been able to make last miniute changes to ensure thier safe travel.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

It was a Viper Gecko, and if it is who I think then I would say with 90% certainty that the Viper was WC.

The temps did not vary enough for ANY animal I am aware of to die or even just feel uncomfortable.

I know a couple of people were discussing ingenious methods they use to keep stuff packed securely (no vented tubs inside large non vented tubs for one) maybe its the packing as there was nothing other than the listed ones that suffered, if they suffered.

I know for a FACT that people brought other geckos back that were as fragile as the U.Phantasticus and they are all perfectly fine, a couple are already settled in and eating.

In all fairness, the poly boxes in the hold will have seen less of a fluctuation than any snakes that were shipped in (via air etc) and any of the animals not in controlled heated tubs, so obviously, every animal on display was dead, wasn't it?


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

freekygeeky said:


> just got a phoen call from(hvaent read all this )
> but all his geckos died, including some very rare expesive geckos!
> GIANT phantastics, a pair of. only one breeder in europe.
> a pair of normal phantastuicus (brother and sister to our pair)
> ...


Shit, I feel gutted, specially because I remember Graham talking about his geckos in the euro tunnel a few hours ago. Really gutted, but having read all posts, it seems that geckos and other types of lizards.

Haven't heard of any problems with snakes.

I don't understand a sausage about geckos, so I can't comment but maybe they are more fragile :roll:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Thats great Gina, pleased yours were fine.
> 
> When we are asked about something special, we do try to help as much as possible and this is proved in your case. Its unfortant that we were not made aware of the other _upp._ geckos, we may have been able to make last miniute changes to ensure thier safe travel.


 tis a shame. im looking forward to september!!!


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

freekygeeky said:


> tis a shame. im looking forward to september!!!


By the way, did you like the skin ? :whistling2:


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

it was great!!! 

p.s it wasnt graham who lost his stuff, but will.. his mate 



Dexter said:


> By the way, did you like the skin ? :whistling2:


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## cjreptiles (Nov 13, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your losses, that's a shame. I was on Coach 2 too, and all of my stuff (and my friend's) was fine luckily.



fairee said:


> Like you may have read on captivebred, we were shocked to find a polybox of dead snakes this morning after getting them home...
> 
> They were packed safely but we think they have been overheated on the coach (put somewhere too hot) - we did not put the box on the coach the people in charge did.
> 
> ...


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## ukgeckos (Apr 11, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> I know for a FACT that people brought other geckos back that were as fragile as the U.Phantasticus and they are all perfectly fine, a couple are already settled in and eating.


what species were they young gun?

Gina, nice to know your phants are ok and nice putting name to face! (introduced myself to graham)
good luck with the season!


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

thank you! nice to meet you to, even if i didnt know you were on here! lol


ukgeckos said:


> what species were they young gun?
> 
> Gina, nice to know your phants are ok and nice putting name to face! (introduced myself to graham)
> good luck with the season!


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

ukgeckos said:


> what species were they young gun?
> 
> Gina, nice to know your phants are ok and nice putting name to face! (introduced myself to graham)
> good luck with the season!


U. Henkeli.
U. Lineatus.
C. Irianjayaensis.
A. Felinus.
C. Peguensis.
N. Deleani.
T. Microlepis.
T. Keyserlingii.

Why?


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

freekygeeky said:


> it was great!!!
> 
> p.s it wasnt graham who lost his stuff, but will.. his mate


Yeah, I realised that after I read it again. Anyway, hope you had a great time and the animals will settle well.

Mine seem great at the moment, so I'm quite happy : victory:


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

can i just clear a couple of points up, Graeme is not Jodi's dad its me Ian, Graeme and i bought the snakes planning to grow them on to breed in the future both boxes were ventilated on the lids, one box containing gecko's was fine ,only one dead Leo, which i can live with, the other identical one had milks, kings, rats and corns not exactly delicate snakes but all died and were stinking which i think indicates they had been dead a while, we were on the road around 16 hours. The boxes were packed as tight as the squares on a rubik cube so air flow would have been limited and if a couple had been stacked on top and all around then it could have been suffercation or a hot spot in the hold which could have turned the box into a mini oven. I tend to think ,as Leeds was the second drop off point the our boxes will have been in the middle of the pile - Ashford first ,on the out side then ours in the middle, and finally Scotland on the other side which points towards both air flow and mini oven. To say i'm gutted is an understatement, if you could have seen the poor bloody animals it would have brought a tear to your eye. I go to Hamm every year and have never lost one animal because i take care not to so something has gone seriously wrong this time, i could have lived with one ot two but nearly a grands worth leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I have not read the whole thread but one thing does spring to my mind..the original use of the poly box, some people get there boxes from fruit and veg suppliers , these will have been filled with veg that may well have been treated with pesticides / herbicides.......

just a though.


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## ade (Mar 7, 2007)

wohic said:


> I have not read the whole thread but one thing does spring to my mind..the original use of the poly box, some people get there boxes from fruit and veg suppliers , these will have been filled with veg that may well have been treated with pesticides / herbicides.......
> 
> just a though.


Or that you still need ventlathion in the boxes for air????????????????


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

rigsby said:


> can i just clear a couple of points up, Graeme is not Jodi's dad its me Ian, Graeme and i bought the snakes planning to grow them on to breed in the future both boxes were ventilated on the lids, one box containing gecko's was fine ,only one dead Leo, which i can live with, the other identical one had milks, kings, rats and corns not exactly delicate snakes but all died and were stinking which i think indicates they had been dead a while, we were on the road around 16 hours. The boxes were packed as tight as the squares on a rubik cube so air flow would have been limited and if a couple had been stacked on top and all around then it could have been suffercation or a hot spot in the hold which could have turned the box into a mini oven. I tend to think ,as Leeds was the second drop off point the our boxes will have been in the middle of the pile - Ashford first ,on the out side then ours in the middle, and finally Scotland on the other side which points towards both air flow and mini oven. To say i'm gutted is an understatement, if you could have seen the poor bloody animals it would have brought a tear to your eye. I go to Hamm every year and have never lost one animal because i take care not to so something has gone seriously wrong this time, i could have lived with one ot two but nearly a grands worth leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.


thank you for clearing that up... as requested by the organisers i wil not speculate any further... it is perhaps more appropriate for the people who suffered losses to conject and speculate as i was not there.. but i am deeply sorry for your losses... it must be very very sad

hopefully important lessons can be learned here..

one being DO NOT pack the animals in so tightly the next time..

but i did feel air flow and temps were possibly an issue..

allowing someone to bring back a stack and take up al that room meant for animals is a pity...

I really hope you can get to the bottom of why it happened .. i know it cant bring peace fo mind but it wil bring a conclusion to it for you and possibly some closure


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

rigsby said:


> can i just clear a couple of points up, Graeme is not Jodi's dad its me Ian, Graeme and i bought the snakes planning to grow them on to breed in the future both boxes were ventilated on the lids, one box containing gecko's was fine ,only one dead Leo, which i can live with, the other identical one had milks, kings, rats and corns not exactly delicate snakes but all died and were stinking which i think indicates they had been dead a while, we were on the road around 16 hours. The boxes were packed as tight as the squares on a rubik cube so air flow would have been limited and if a couple had been stacked on top and all around then it could have been suffercation or a hot spot in the hold which could have turned the box into a mini oven. I tend to think ,as Leeds was the second drop off point the our boxes will have been in the middle of the pile - Ashford first ,on the out side then ours in the middle, and finally Scotland on the other side which points towards both air flow and mini oven. To say i'm gutted is an understatement, if you could have seen the poor bloody animals it would have brought a tear to your eye. I go to Hamm every year and have never lost one animal because i take care not to so something has gone seriously wrong this time, i could have lived with one ot two but nearly a grands worth leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.


 
I feel gutted for you. And you raised some valid points. Just before loading my box into the hold I made some extra holes to the sides because originally the box only had holes in the lid and I thought if someone loaded a box on top of mine, there would have no air flow at all.

But I hopped off in Ashford, so my animals didin't travel as much as yours and my box was quite on top.

Another factor that probably would have helped in my case is that I had only 3 snakes in a huge box, where there were othr people who'd have 100 snakes in a same size box. Although it should still be Ok, when things go wrong that could be a problem.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

only holes in the lids?


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

I bought a boa once and it came in that box, and only had holes in the lid. But the boa didn't stay longer than 3 hours in the box and had plenty of room and air in it.

But I made some extra holes to the sides, because this time would be different than transporting a poly box in your car.


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## beege_3 (May 20, 2005)

Sorry for you're losses, I will not speculate either.. but you have my condolences on the loss of your animals.


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## Lester Cheong (Feb 19, 2008)

fairee said:


> Like you may have read on captivebred, we were shocked to find a polybox of dead snakes this morning after getting them home...
> 
> They were packed safely but we think they have been overheated on the coach (put somewhere too hot) - we did not put the box on the coach the people in charge did.
> 
> ...


OMG.. i was on coach 2 also. my little boa was ok thank god.. what snakes were they? how awful


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Yes the hold was full, just as the other coach and all the others we have run.

Yes, the rack was a problem, we were told it was a flat pack rack and would not take up much room. Those there will have seen how big it was, and came with all the tubs as well. 

We were faced with a choice to make, and agreed if all the animals also fitted.

With regards to packing animals in, we had no control over how many animals were put in each box. I personally dont know how these snakes were packed, and how big the box was, so I can not make comment on that issue.

With regards to the number of boxes in the hold, yes, we made use of the available space. we did limit the general number of boxes, maybe we should limit it even more ! We can win either way, before we go its 'i want more boxes, why limit me' and now its 'why did you let so many boxes on'.

It was myself who entered the hold of the scottish coach at ashford with a view to unloading, and I can say for sure that boxes were loaded in a semi random way, each destination was in different places.

In the process of unloading I found nothing that caused me concearn, and re packed the boxes in a more convieniant way to aid unloading at the other loacations.

I was inside the hold for a good lenght of time and did not find it to warm at all. I also moved about in the hold and did not notice any hotspots on the floor, or any stange smells.

I dont know how long decomposing animals take to start smelling, so cant make comment on when they died, or thier fittnes for travel.

As we have arranged with Graham, we are awaiting results of pms on two of the animals, and once this is obtained, if it points to any wrong doing on our part then we will of course give assistance in making claims against the coach company insurance.

Apart from one gecko, and 2 pairs of very delicate geckos(not notified to us) this one box is the only instance of death that has been reported, so dont quite understand how this was affected when others were not.

It is a long way to travel, and i think everyone relises this.

However, I must say that even though some are quick to point the finger, we do take any death serously and our thoughts go to Ian, Graham and Jody, and as said before, we will provide any assistance we can.

As it seems that this may result in insurance claims and or legal action, I can only make factual comments as i have so far. I dont see there is anything else I can add to this thread with out going over old ground. At present, there is no firm cause of death, we can not take any further action until the reports are with us. 

Tony


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

I was in the hold with Tony on coach two trying to sort out the boxes etc and I didn't smell anything funky. If I did I would of informed Tony straight away, I didn't feel any hot spots at all if I did I would of sat on it to keep warm lol.

But again sorry for your losses guys.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Tis a shame that this has happened but I don't know why certian people seem to be liking the speculation - perhaps if the boot was on the other foot and they were in a bad position...............

I think it is commendable the organisation and such that goes into getting the coaches to Hamm and such like and am just gutted I never have the time nor cash to go too


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## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

Hi Tony,

What I'm about to comment has absolutely nothing to do with the case in question and also would be not a criticism to any parties involved, but I feel the urge to put this point across.

Yesterday I commented with a few people that deep down I felt a bit saddened with the whole show thing.

I enjoyed the show as much as most people, and I'll definitely go again, but deep inside I'm an animal lover and for me their welfare is more important that the business itself. I don't feel less worried if a classic corn suffer than if a leucistic if you get what I mean.

So at times it's hard for me to take millions of people disturbing the animals, dropping boxes, animals displayed in tiny spaces and not ideal conditions (at the show I mean not while transported), etc. So I think in a way most animals suffer a lot before, during and after the show, and as much as we all strive to handle everything in the best way possible, things get out of control.

Another point is that we need to take into consideration that many of these animals have been through long journeys before getting to Hamm, and then they have the show ordeal combined with long journeys afterwards. So there would always be an element of risk.

Also, I'm no expert, but I suppose that once an animal dies in a box, the other animals sharing that box will be in danger. I think that the oxygen is consumed quickly when animals die, and it's a knock on effect. But that would have to be confirmed by an expert. It's just that through reading loads of cases of people who had animals dying while being transported, often I heard people saying that all animals arrived dead, or all arrived in good shape.


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Enough time has now passed for anyone else who has experienced problems to come forward. The thread is only becoming full of theories and speculation which will neither bring back the lost animals or give concrete reasons to the cause of the deaths. So i am going to close this thread until we have received a copy of the post mortem back.

I have pm'd all parties involved and if any feel strongly that they wish this thread to be re opened they can pm me or any other moderator.


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## rigsby (Jan 11, 2008)

Just before the thread closes, I would just like to point out that I have used the boxes in question more times than i care to remember, even at Hamm in the height of summer - with no ill effects. 

Me and Graeme have over 60 years experience between us (30 years each) in keeping reptiles, and for some people to suggest we could have made the amateurish mistake of not enough ventilation is ludicrous.


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## Ace (Feb 20, 2006)

*Hamm Disater - the gecko issue*

Hello one and all, I am Will the said person in question that has suffered the loss of geckos during transit, few in number but great in value both financially and with respect to the captive breeding programs I have running for these species. Its been a long time since I posted on this forum but I feel it necessary to do so in order to clear up a few misnomers raised by other members of this forum. Here are a few points to consider.

None of the species of gecko mentioned by “Young Gun” are in my personal opinion considered to be as sensitive to high temperatures as U.phantasticus. I draw particular reference to U.henkeli and U.lineatus, neither of these species fall into the same grouping within the genus Uroplatus as U.phantasticus (Bauer 2007 - *A phylogeny of the enigmatic Madagascan geckos of the genus Uroplatus). With respect to habitat distribution and thermal tolerances these species are quite distinct also (after all Madagascar their country of origin is often referred to as a micro continent due to the degree of different habitats present). U.henkeli is Found in isolated pockets down the west coast of Madagascar and Nosy Be island where it comfortably lives at 28-30 degrees centigrade (Svatek &Van Duin 2001 – Leaf tailed geckos the genus Uroplatus), and has also shown to be the only species of Uroplatus capable of adapting to secondary habitat (Bauer 2007, Glaw and Vence 2006 – Third edition “A field guide to Amphibians and reptiles of Madagascar). Likewise U.lineatus which is present on the East coast of Madagascar and Nosy Boraha again lives comfortably in a temperature range of 28-30 degrees C). Both of these aforementioned species are lowland species of Uroplatus and therefore tolerate much higher temperatures than the U.phantasticus that comes from the evergreen tropical mountain rainforests in central Madagascar just east of Antanarivo at altitudes in excess of 1300m above sea level, here its natural temperature regime is 22-26 degrees C (Svatek and Van Duin 2001) so in response to “Young Guns” comparison between the temperature tolerances of these species he was quite considerably “off the mark” . And with respect to Nephrurus deleani, just because something is expensive does not mean it has poor thermal tolerance, (28-30C , Wilson and Swan - *A Complete Guide to Reptiles of Australia) , and N.deleani (the pernatty knobtailed gecko) has to tolerate temperatures as high as 34C in its natural range (Bauer 1989 - *Extracranial Endolymphatic Sacs in Eurydactylodes (Reptilia: Gekkonidae), with Comments on Endolymphatic Function in Lizards). With respect to the A.felinus the temperature tolerance of the individuals bought back would be dependent upon the specific locality of the individuals in question as there is current taxonomic work being undertaken to prove that the “monophyletic genus” A.felinus is actually a grouping of individual species strictly determined by regional differences (A.felinus felinus, along with A.felinus multituberculatus (not always considered a genuine subspecies, originally put forward in 1927 by Kopstein), the individuals that I was bringing back were F1 captive bred offspring from the Cameron Highlands an area in Malaysia 1500m above sea level an area that very rarely exceeds 25C, although the same local have been shown to be comfortable living in captivity at 27C (reference from the breeder). Again if the individuals that your friend bought back had been from one of the Singapore localities they have a higher thermal tolerance due to living at lower altitudes (Thailand localities are illegal to export so its unlikely it would have been from a locality here).*
*Secondly with reference to other animals in the same box that survived the trip there were a pair of helmeted geckos (Tarentola chazaliae, pre 2002 it was formerly Gekonia chazaliae). A species of coastal desert dwelling geckos from the west coast of Africa (Senegal to Morocco) which in its natural environment tolerates temperatures up to 32 degrees C during the daytime in summer months. There was also a Hog Island Boa again a species tolerates temperatures up to 32 C. However as many of you will know a snake that does not have food in its stomach is able to tolerate even wider temperature gradients. *
*In response to the questioning about the poly box used, it is the exact same poly box I have used the last 4 times I have been to Hamm and the last 2 times (including the coach to Hamm trip in September where they were stored in the hold without incident) it has been used to house leaf tailed geckos the last 2 times I have been (the exact same species in December from the same breeder) the last time also a royal python as well. It was originally a box used for transporting fish and has been thoroughly disinfected with Tamodine-E in-between uses; it has ventilation on the lid and sides.*
*There was no additional heating in the box, chemically activated heat packs can regularly reach up to 50C dependent upon specific brand so why would I put them with temperate species of gecko?*
*I would also like to raise the point that the 2 of the geckos that I brought back (U.phantasticus) were in fact the siblings of the two brought back by Grahame and frrekygeeky. They had no issues with theirs as they had their animals in the hold of coach 1 where as mine were in the hold of coach 2 where others have had issues with losses. *
*The temperatures were checked on route in the hold area of coach 1 but not in coach 2.*
*U.phantasticus are a rather nice indicator species for thermal stress when looking at whether it was prolonged or sudden. These animals can dehydrate easily when kept at too high a temperature which causes a curling of the dermal flaps along the fringes of their tails to curl under showing prolonged exposure to temperatures that were slightly too warm for them or (stale air can also cause this condition). This was not the case in the animals I was transporting (photos can be posted upon request) the animals I was transporting showed no curling of the dermal flaps meaning that it was a significantly high temperature for these animals as protein uncoupling would be the cause of their death before the time taken for dehydration to set in occurred. A full and indepth post mortem including tissue analysis will be being conducted tomorrow morning at a cost exceeding 200 pounds per animal in order to confirm my well informed suspicion as to the cause of their death. Also when stressed this species is prone to dropping its tail, none of the animals had dropped their tail (one female was already missing hers and in the process of re-growing it due to a shedding difficulty when younger), this therefore points to an even more rapid demise this is highlighted by the open mouthed gape and bodily contortion of two of the said animals. If generalised stress had been the cause of their demise due to the effects of being taken to the show etc they would have dropped their tails as is often the case with this species. This therefore again rules this out as being the cause of their death.*
*As Tony stated in his post about the lack of notification of having rare and delicate geckos on board I would simply like to raise the point that I have not had issues transporting Uroplatus back to the UK from Hamm previously including on the coach organised by himself in September when again I didn’t feel it necessary to notify him as I have not had issues in transporting them before (4 times a year I move my entire collection, of more than 180 geckos, 270 miles between houses without issue’s).*
*I too was departing the coach at Leeds pointing to the manner in which the boxes were packaged (dependent upon drop off point) that mine would have been in the vicinity of Graeme’s so if a hot spot/temperature (the issue I am almost certain it will be proven to be) or poor air flow was to blame it would suggest that ours were in a similar place, due to my poly box being a bit battered on the outside and smaller than most peoples I was able to see the location of my box while others were being unloaded at Ashford, it was located on top of another larger box on the right hand side of the hold towards the rear of the hold.*
*With regards to the temperature on coach 2 on the journey to hamm a very nice lady sitting 2 seats behind me had to get up to ask the driver to turn off the heating as it was too hot for the passengers on the upper deck (passengers=mammals that are able to thermoregulate, geckos= reptiles not able to thermoregulate) the same issue was encountered on the return trip although whether the point was brought to the drivers attention or not I cannot say due to having fallen asleep.*

*In conclusion I will be getting full histology PMs done on all the animals involved and after the vet has confirmed my suspicions I will be forwarding the cause of death certificates on to Tony and Steve for them to pass onto the coach company where I will be seeking action as Graeme may have lost nearly a grands worth of snakes but I have lost over a grands worth of geckos in just 6 individuals that all appear to have died for the same reason a reason that I have previously not encountered when transporting animals over long distances. Any further discussion can be conducted over pm.*

*Cheers, Will*

 (appologies for having to start a new thread but the other one had been closed before i had a chance to post, please feel free to lock this one as well)


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

In response to all those that have suffered loss, I can assure you that any assistance needed in making a claim against the insurance company for death and losses suffered as a result negligence on ours or the coach companies employees behalf resulting in the said losses, will be given.

Of course, each party is fully entitled to pursue such action, as they feel fit with out further notice to us, but must point out that any intended claims notice should be presented to the insurers without delay, via ourselves.

Tony


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