# British Pet Expo (incl. British Reptile & Exotics Expo 2012)



## BritishPetExpo (Jul 23, 2011)

*British Pet Expo (including the British Reptile Expo and the British Pet Traders' Expo)
30th June - 1st July 2012
Westpoint Arena
Exeter
EX5 1DJ

*This event will feature something for everyone with a reptile expo, a dog show, a trade expo and a whole host of other activities, competitions and attractions.

The website has just gone live today at http://www.britishpetexpo.com
It's still got a bit of work left to do on it and we are eager to get any photos or videos (we will have a YouTube channel soon) to help make the site a bit more attractive. Any comments (positive or negative) will be much appreciated.

I know it's a long way off yet, but I am keen to start getting exhibitors booked in early as it's going to be a huge event.

I hope to see as many of you as possible there!


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

As per my comments on Captive Bred website - Exhibiting animals is not a problem and sales of dry good are not an issue. However, sales of vertebrates animals cannot take place, sales of invertebrates is fine.


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## BritishPetExpo (Jul 23, 2011)

Copied from CaptiveBred:

Can you point me to the piece of legislation which back that up please? If it's Section 2 of the 1952 Pet Animals Act then I have already confirmed with Defra and Environmental Health that it's fine. Plus, I would be interested to hear how other such events manage to get away with the sale of vertibrates.

It would only be hobbyists selling animals, not traders.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

BritishPetExpo said:


> Copied from CaptiveBred:
> 
> Can you point me to the piece of legislation which back that up please? If it's Section 2 of the 1952 Pet Animals Act then I have already confirmed with Defra and Environmental Health that it's fine. Plus, I would be interested to hear how other such events manage to get away with the sale of vertibrates.
> 
> It would only be hobbyists selling animals, not traders.


If you have conformation from Defra that Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act, 1951 has been formal been repealed, then I would very much be interested to see that [in writing]! My understanding is the Commencement Order has yet to be read. Until till such time that it is the event you are planning is clearly unlawful.


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## BritishPetExpo (Jul 23, 2011)

Copied again from CaptiveBred - perhaps continue correspondence over there to prevent copying and pasting?



Chris Newman said:


> If you have conformation from Defra that Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act, 1951 has been formal been repealed, then I would very much be interested to see that [in writing]! My understanding is the Commencement Order has yet to be read. Until till such time that it is the event you are planning is clearly unlawful.


It has not been repealed - there is no need for it to be. Below is a quote of what the Act states:

"If any person *carries on a business of selling animals as pets* in any part of a street or public place, [or] at a stall or barrow in a market, he shall be guilty of an offence."

I have put in bold the key part, which is the part which allows individual hobbyists to sell, but prohibits businesses/traders from selling animals as pets. This is not just my opinion, but the opinion of Defra themselves. This event has been arranged through the proper channels, I have met with the Licencing Office at East Devon District Council, I have spoken (by telephone and via email) with Environmental Health and I have discussed the matter with Defra.

Can you please explain to me how other events manage to allow people to sell animals, whilst mine (according to you) cannot? I'm just a little curious how different rules seem to apply.

Many thanks.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

BritishPetExpo said:


> Copied again from CaptiveBred - perhaps continue correspondence over there to prevent copying and pasting?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Section 2 has not been repealed, which is as I understand it the case, then an event which is ‘commercial’ – such as the event you are planning would require to be licensed under the Pet Animals Act, which it cannot be because of Section 2! The only lawful events currently are private breeders meetings such as those organised by the IHS, BHS, ERAC, FBH etc. i.e. an event organised by a club or society. An event organised by an individual or a business is commercial and therefore licensable, irrespective if the vendors are private hobbyist, that is quite clear.


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## BritishPetExpo (Jul 23, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> If Section 2 has not been repealed, which is as I understand it the case, then an event which is ‘commercial’ – such as the event you are planning would require to be licensed under the Pet Animals Act, which it cannot be because of Section 2! The only lawful events currently are private breeders meetings such as those organised by the IHS, BHS, ERAC, FBH etc. i.e. an event organised by a club or society. An event organised by an individual or a business is commercial and therefore licensable, irrespective if the vendors are private hobbyist, that is quite clear.


I'd argue it's not "clear" at all. Clearly it is your interpretation of Section 2 which allegedly makes such an event illegal - my correspondence with Defra, support of Environmental Health and the nod from the Licencing Office all suggest something else.

Secondly, the British Reptile & Exotics Expo is merely happening under the same roof as the British Pet Expo. I'll assume you don't know how much Westpoint Arena costs to hire, but it's a hell of a lot and I can assure you that any money made from the Reptile Expo will not make said Expo a commercial event. All of the money (from the Reptile Expo) will go towards covering 20-30% of the venue hire. That's before we get to the point of table hire, insurance etc. I could include something more profitable in the space I am allocating to the Reptile Expo. Sure, I'd make more money, but that's not what this is about. I organised my first reptile event over 7 years ago now, it's where I started out and it's where I return. It's not because I want to make money, it's because it is something I am passionate about and is something I feel very strongly about.

Thirdly, it would anyway be my "business of hiring out tables to hobbyists", and not my business of selling animals as pets - that particular section of law has been abided by and not broken. I have gone through the proper channels for this event to specifically ensure no laws have been broken.


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## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

Here we go again so to speak

In the few years I have been following this argument my anecdotal understanding is that what the legislation means to one authority seems to mean something completely different to another. That is why some perfectly legal and well run shows have been scuppered in certain areas or have had conditions attached while in other areas they continue.

In consequence, it is up to the capricious (or crapicious if you prefer) local authority in the area where a show is being held to decide if they are happy with the arrangements for the show and the standing of the persons organising it. If they are not happy then they have the option to poo poo the show and close it down at the click of their fingers.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

BritishPetExpo said:


> I'd argue it's not "clear" at all. Clearly it is your interpretation of Section 2 which allegedly makes such an event illegal - my correspondence with Defra, support of Environmental Health and the nod from the Licencing Office all suggest something else.
> 
> Secondly, the British Reptile & Exotics Expo is merely happening under the same roof as the British Pet Expo. I'll assume you don't know how much Westpoint Arena costs to hire, but it's a hell of a lot and I can assure you that any money made from the Reptile Expo will not make said Expo a commercial event. All of the money (from the Reptile Expo) will go towards covering 20-30% of the venue hire. That's before we get to the point of table hire, insurance etc. I could include something more profitable in the space I am allocating to the Reptile Expo. Sure, I'd make more money, but that's not what this is about. I organised my first reptile event over 7 years ago now, it's where I started out and it's where I return. It's not because I want to make money, it's because it is something I am passionate about and is something I feel very strongly about.
> 
> Thirdly, it would anyway be my "business of hiring out tables to hobbyists", and not my business of selling animals as pets - that particular section of law has been abided by and not broken. I have gone through the proper channels for this event to specifically ensure no laws have been broken.


The legal interpretation of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act, 1951 is clear after the 2005 Judicial Review – their is no confusions! Until Section 2 is repealed, as is the intention of the Animal Welfare Act, 2006 then such events cannot be licensed by Local Authorities. If you are speaking to the right people in Defra, Animal Welfare Bill Teem, then I think you will find they will inform you this is correct. 

It is very clear and unarguable as the law stands at the moment what you are planning is not lawful. Until the repeal of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act is implemented under the Animal Welfare Act such events cannot be licensed. Clearly the event is a commercial activity and therefore if vertebrate animals are to be sold would require a licence.

The only way forward on this is for Section 2 to be formally repealed, as has Section 3. The intention to repeal Section is clearly stated in the AWA, but has yet to be done.


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## BritishPetExpo (Jul 23, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> The legal interpretation of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act, 1951 is clear after the 2005 Judicial Review – their is no confusions! Until Section 2 is repealed, as is the intention of the Animal Welfare Act, 2006 then such events cannot be licensed by Local Authorities. If you are speaking to the right people in Defra, Animal Welfare Bill Teem, then I think you will find they will inform you this is correct.
> 
> It is very clear and unarguable as the law stands at the moment what you are planning is not lawful. Until the repeal of Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act is implemented under the Animal Welfare Act such events cannot be licensed. Clearly the event is a commercial activity and therefore if vertebrate animals are to be sold would require a licence.
> 
> The only way forward on this is for Section 2 to be formally repealed, as has Section 3. The intention to repeal Section is clearly stated in the AWA, but has yet to be done.


Although I would argue it isn't very clear (given that Defra themselves have apparently misinformed me) I shall accept what you are saying. As I have previously mentioned, the Reptile Expo side of this event is not being arranged to make money or for any financial reasons. If I was to hand over the arrangements of the British Reptile & Exotics Expo to a new not-for-profit reptile society and not take any profits from it (as there won't be any profits anyway, given the cost of the hall rental and other expenses), would this, in your view, make it a legal event? It would still be on the same day, at the same venue and visited by the same members of the public, it would just be an event as part of a reptile society.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The whole situation is a complete mess and totally unsatisfactory, there are no reasonably grounds why such events cannot be licensed, other than Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act and that was clearly intended to prevent sales of animals from street markets such as Petticoat Lane – not well run expos. Section 2 has been set for repeal in the Animal Welfare Act, but for what ever reason has not been done and pushing for this should be a priority! In all the years I have been dealing with this I have yet to meet a single Local Authority that would not prefer to licence such events, but the current mess ties there hands, which is most regrettable.

If you would like to contact me privately I am more than happy to discuss matters with you further.


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## BritishPetExpo (Jul 23, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> The whole situation is a complete mess and totally unsatisfactory, there are no reasonably grounds why such events cannot be licensed, other than Section 2 of the Pet Animals Act and that was clearly intended to prevent sales of animals from street markets such as Petticoat Lane – not well run expos. Section 2 has been set for repeal in the Animal Welfare Act, but for what ever reason has not been done and pushing for this should be a priority! In all the years I have been dealing with this I have yet to meet a single Local Authority that would not prefer to licence such events, but the current mess ties there hands, which is most regrettable.
> 
> If you would like to contact me privately I am more than happy to discuss matters with you further.


I'd agree the current law is completely unsatisfactory and grossly out of date. Apologies if I came across as rude or abrupt before, however after receiving guidance from Defra, I had assumed the information I was already armed with was correct.

You have mail.


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## leighorse1214 (Jul 25, 2011)

Hiya,

Im a bit confused, im pretty new to reptiles and i really wanted to go to this event because its the closest to me.
Would the reptiles be on sale (geckos, snakes ect.) if so would they be in correct care, like have heatmats, food and water.
This probably sounds very dumb but i have never been to one of these things before. And what would the entrance fee be? 
Thanks if anyone can shed some light, that would be great :2thumb:


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## BritishPetExpo (Jul 23, 2011)

leighorse1214 said:


> Hiya,
> 
> Im a bit confused, im pretty new to reptiles and i really wanted to go to this event because its the closest to me.
> Would the reptiles be on sale (geckos, snakes ect.) if so would they be in correct care, like have heatmats, food and water.
> ...


Doesn't sound dumb at all - all perfectly reasonable questions 

Looks like the organising of the reptile show will be done by a not-for-profit society now instead, although the booking process will remain the same - it just means none of the organisers will make any money from the reptile event, which is fine by me as that was never the aim of the reptile show.

Because the reptile show will be not-for-profit, live animals can be sold there, but only by individual hobbyists. In the terms and conditions it states that all animals must be provided with whatever they need to remain happy and healthy for the time they are at the show. All tables are provided with a power supply to help ensure this is the case.

As for the entry fee, it's still not confirmed but for adults will be around £7-£10 (this will cover entry to the whole of the British Pet Expo, not just the Reptile Expo).


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## leighorse1214 (Jul 25, 2011)

Thank you!


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## Steve95 (May 6, 2012)

Event now cancelled!!


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