# Natural vs controlled environment



## bramblebunny (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi,

Just thinking (the biologist part of my mind (MSc in conservation)), many of us keep various wild caught and captive bred animals and try to stimulate there natural environment. How far should people go in this, especially for wild caught animals? Should we try to stimulate seasons, weather etc or just find one climate suitable for the breed and just stick to one temperature, humidity etc? What's best for the animals involved as opposed to our budgets, time etc? This can apply to fish as well as amphibians, lizards, snakes etc

Claire

ps I thinking on a more academic/theoretical level rather than anyone criticising how anyone else keeps there animals


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

bramblebunny said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just thinking (the biologist part of my mind (MSc in conservation)), many of us keep various wild caught and captive bred animals and try to stimulate there natural environment. How far should people go in this, especially for wild caught animals? Should we try to stimulate seasons, weather etc or just find one climate suitable for the breed and just stick to one temperature, humidity etc? What's best for the animals involved as opposed to our budgets, time etc? This can apply to fish as well as amphibians, lizards, snakes etc
> 
> ...


planted natural tanks with live plants >anything that uses toilet roll substrate and hides:lol2:


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

Personally, I think it's quite unrealistic to imagine we're keeping our reptiles in a "natural environment." We keep snakes and lizards in wooden boxes with glass doors, put bright green plastic plants in with them, change their white wood chippings every month, and feed them on a routine, of perfectly sized frozen rodents. This is as far as you could possibly get from a natural environment when you think about it! 

If one was to simulate their natural environment in terms of lighting, timing, heat, seasons, weather etc etc, we might as well let them go, because no matter how much effort you put into getting the seasons perfect, or the lighting perfect, they're still wild animals living in boxes. As soon as you breed an animal as a pet you're taking it out of it's "natural environment."


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Willz0r2010 said:


> Personally, I think it's quite unrealistic to imagine we're keeping our reptiles in a "natural environment." We keep snakes and lizards in wooden boxes with glass doors, put bright green plastic plants in with them, change their white wood chippings every month, and feed them on a routine, of perfectly sized frozen rodents. This is as far as you could possibly get from a natural environment when you think about it!
> 
> If one was to simulate their natural environment in terms of lighting, timing, heat, seasons, weather etc etc, we might as well let them go, because no matter how much effort you put into getting the seasons perfect, or the lighting perfect, they're still wild animals living in boxes. As soon as you breed an animal as a pet you're taking it out of it's "natural environment."


doesnt mean as hobbiest its not our responsibility to emulate as close as we can ....visit the phib section and we do an very good job 90% or more use live bioactiuve setups meaning we dont clean the tanks, our frogs are provided the opportunity to hunt inbetween feedings only live plants are used ....the tank is essentially living 

id say my tank is a very good job of emmulating there environment due to dartfrogs thriving at room temps this does fluctuate slightly with seasons and ill mist the tank any where from 1-5 times a day 

i also feed 4-6 times per week at no set time and vary this between fruit flies (both kinds)bean weevils, micro crickets and with spring-tails(Europe and tropical)woodlice(white tropical and a few locally collected) all inhabiting the viv at any time im sure that these are hunted for food also

due the wild habitat being located on/near the equator there is a 12 hour day night all year :2thumb:id say my frogs arent far off from there habitat :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

It's not really about how good the set up is INSIDE the tank though. The point is, you're taking a wild animal and putting in inside a small glass box. That is not natural!

There is no other way to enjoy these animals - don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-keeping reptiles, or I wouldn't be here. But it's slightly silly to believe that you're recreating a natural environment when you've got animals that would usually be spread over hundreds of miles of varied environment, put into a small glass box where people peer in and walk around.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> planted natural tanks with live plants >anything that uses toilet roll substrate and hides:lol2:


 haha yeah :lol2:
but on a seriouse note it I think would depend on the animal in question, is it stressed? is it eating e.t.c for wild caught ones I mean.
If you can afford the costs to do as much as you can to replicate there natural surroundings then I think the animals would benefit from it... in what ways I am not 100%

with artificial substrates we can really only imprivise with what we have to provide the best care to our animals and if they can adapt to it well fair enough but remember no matter how much time and effort you actually put into trying to mimic there natural surroundings you will never ever get it 100%.

which brings in part of the fasination of reptiles too they can adapt to artificial surroundings within reason of course.
I myself would like to hear other peoples views on this.


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

But the only way to replicate their natural "surroundings" is to have a vivarium the size of London. You quite simply cannot replicate it in a small glass/wooden box!

You can spend hours and hours on replicating a tiny little section of natural habitat in a small box, but wild animals don't stay in one place forever. They move around, and explore different types of environment. I guess the closest you could realistically do is to create an elaborate lavish realistic environment for every type of habitat they would encounter naturally. I.e. have a desert setup leading into a stream bed setup, leading into a savannah set up, leading into a rocky ledge setup etc etc. Animals migrate and move around and get lost, and travel miles to find mating partners. They definitely don't stay within the size of an Exo Terra glass box their entire life!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Willz0r2010 said:


> But the only way to replicate their natural "surroundings" is to have a vivarium the size of London. You quite simply cannot replicate it in a small glass/wooden box!
> 
> You can spend hours and hours on replicating a tiny little section of natural habitat in a small box, but wild animals don't stay in one place forever. They move around, and explore different types of environment. I guess the closest you could realistically do is to create an elaborate lavish realistic environment for every type of habitat they would encounter naturally. I.e. have a desert setup leading into a stream bed setup, leading into a savannah set up, leading into a rocky ledge setup etc etc. Animals migrate and move around and get lost, and travel miles to find mating partners. They definitely don't stay within the size of an Exo Terra glass box their entire life!


 
interesting point hence why you jst cant compete with nature in a box.


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## bramblebunny (Dec 26, 2010)

sambridge15 said:


> doesnt mean as hobbiest its not our responsibility to emulate as close as we can ....visit the phib section and we do an very good job 90% or more use live bioactiuve setups meaning we dont clean the tanks, our frogs are provided the opportunity to hunt inbetween feedings only live plants are used ....the tank is essentially living


Playing devils advocate :devil:... is the reason that many phib keepers try to emulate the environment because they actually believe that is best for the animal or because the only way you can get phibs to breed is to emulate the natural environment whereas geckos for instance will breed in a box with tissue paper and toilet rolls? :devil:


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## bramblebunny (Dec 26, 2010)

Willz0r2010 said:


> But the only way to replicate their natural "surroundings" is to have a vivarium the size of London. You quite simply cannot replicate it in a small glass/wooden box!
> 
> You can spend hours and hours on replicating a tiny little section of natural habitat in a small box, but wild animals don't stay in one place forever. They move around, and explore different types of environment. I guess the closest you could realistically do is to create an elaborate lavish realistic environment for every type of habitat they would encounter naturally. I.e. have a desert setup leading into a stream bed setup, leading into a savannah set up, leading into a rocky ledge setup etc etc. Animals migrate and move around and get lost, and travel miles to find mating partners. They definitely don't stay within the size of an Exo Terra glass box their entire life!


Still playing devils advocate :devil: ... Just because you can't replicate the whole of the surroundings of your animal does that mean you shouldn't try to replicate any of the surroundings especially if the animal is wild caught? :devil:


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

bramblebunny said:


> Playing devils advocate :devil:... is the reason that many phib keepers try to emulate the environment because they actually believe that is best for the animal or because the only way you can get phibs to breed is to emulate the natural environment whereas geckos for instance will breed in a box with tissue paper and toilet rolls? :devil:


not true you could breed phibs on toilet roll substrate with fake plants provided a suitable laying site(exo artifical brom) but why would we want such an unsightly eyesore when we could have a micro rainforest:2thumb: we do it because it looks way way better provides a more natural environment requires alot less maintenance and is better for the phib:Na_Na_Na_Na:!

i dont really get your argument at all Willz0r2010 what do walls have to do with providing a natural environment the definition 1. The circumstances or conditions that surround one; surroundings.

walls have nothing to do with providing a natural environment ,provided the vivarium provides a close imitation of the inhabitants natural home in terms of light, humidity ,plants ,substrate etc then by definition of the word we are indeed providing a"natural environment." albeit we are limiting the size of the environment for our convenience but with my frogs being around 1inch and the vivarium being 18-18-24 thats a massive amount of room it would be like having an entire supermarket for a home for a human !


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## Becky Wheeler (Jun 15, 2006)

Very interesting points being mentioned on here!! :2thumb:

But yes I totally agree you can't 100% replicate a natural surrounding for them but the way I see it is you can give it your best shot and try to give them a natural looking setup and if there happy and feeding then you know you've done o.k.

I know that they are housed in a box and are restricted from natural changes but also I think you have to see the advantages of both?? For instance, A wild caught lizard would have more chance of survival in a vivarium then if it was in the wild?.

Those are my thoughts anyway and I do believe that reps can cope with changes and adapted to new surroundings.

It would be great to see what others have to say! Great thread! :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Becky Wheeler said:


> Very interesting points being mentioned on here!! :2thumb:
> 
> But yes I totally agree you can't 100% replicate a natural surrounding for them but the way I see it is you can give it your best shot and try to give them a natural looking setup and if there happy and feeding then you know you've done o.k.
> 
> ...


 
thats pretty much all you can do really. Do your best and do what you think is right for the animal depending on your budget, the amount of time your going to put into it and I agree that a captive bred specimen is lickley to live a longer life than that in the wild but then in some instances even that can be questionible.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> thats pretty much all you can do really. Do your best and do what you think is right for the animal depending on your budget, *the amount of time your going to put into it *and I agree that a captive bred specimen is lickley to live a longer life than that in the wild but then in some instances even that can be questionible.


what i dont get is that planted tanks are probably the easiest thing in the world to maintain iv never cleaned my tank once and its spotless :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> what i dont get is that planted tanks are probably the easiest thing in the world to maintain iv never cleaned my tank once and its spotless :2thumb:


 
I think much of the problem of people not using live plants is that there is rarely any information in what you can use like books e.t.c they always state you can use it if you like but never offer any suggestions and always focus on the negative side of keeping plants... may have insects may attract insects blah blah blah I am not just talking about phibs but the hobby in general I do not know anyone yet that actually uses live plant usage with a corn snake for example or an iguana.

I dont think its a problem keeping your pet in what you think is the best for it however so each to there own really lmao :2thumb:
and many of the more natural substrates tend to be infested with something and there is always the risk of making your pet ill or discomforting it if you go down that root but for some it works.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I think much of the problem of people not using live plants is that there is rarely any information in what you can use like books e.t.c they always state you can use it if you like but never offer any suggestions and always focus on the negative side of keeping plants... may have insects may attract insects blah blah blah I am not just talking about phibs but the hobby in general I do not know anyone yet that actually uses live plant usage with a corn snake for example or an iguana.
> 
> I dont think its a problem keeping your pet in what you think is the best for it however so each to there own really lmao :2thumb:
> and many of the more natural substrates t*end to be infested with something* and* there is always the risk of making your pet ill or discomforting* it if you go down that root but for some it works.


perhaps you are a bit/very misinformed allow me to enlighten.the idea is for the substrate and viv to be "infested" I collect leaf litter from the garden for my viv i also add locally collected woodlice and worms i also purchased tropical springtails and woodlice these along with numerous other bugs brought in with the leaves then breed in the viv :notworthy:


these bugs or custodians as there often refered then control any waste for example dead leaves animal waste etc .This means cleaning is not required:no1: these bugs waste then becomes fertiliser for the plants(yay go bugs!) as if these bugs wernt already worth there weight in gold they also control fungal and mould outbreaks and other undesirable waste thus reducing the chances of making a pet ill or catching anything ..... waste from my frogs is often gone within hours how often do you clean your viv?id put money that its not every time your animal goes number 2!so these live tanks are far cleaner and so consequently smell alot less(hows that for comfort!) im sure the improved hygiene will also benefit your pets health 


those wondrous little mirricle bugs also have 1 last gift they are far more nutritious(very high in calcium) than most live foods like crix, roaches, locust ,mealworms etc so may even help reduce chances of mbd



in fact i find the clean ,clean ,sterilise,nuke,microwave attitude of the other sections hilarious the constant cleaning scrubbing and use of chems like bleach soaps and other cleaning products and even reptile safe brands are far more likely to cause harm and discomfort by ingestion or skin contact than any of the imaginary things they are trying to prevent infact they shoot themselves in the foot many times by.......

a)removing all the helpful bugs and bacteria
b) proceeding to use very harmful toxic/irritants to do so
c)constantly removing decor to outside the viv where it may be exposed to illness causing bacteria 
d)stress of constantly disturbing the habitat
e)the disgusting eyesore that is *most *unplanted vivs :lol:bound to get some1 say my plasatic plant tank looks really good blah blah blah(PS it doesnt it would look lots better planted)

as you can tell im very pro plant as are most of the more "knowledgeable " keepers just a shame most new comers are guided away from it by myths about harmfulness and difficulty


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> the idea is for the substrate and viv to be "infested" I collect leaf litter from the garden for my viv i also add locally collected woodlice as well as purchased tropical springtails and woodlice these along with numerous other bugs brought in with the leaves then breed in the viv :notworthy:
> 
> these bugs or custodians as there often refered then control any waste for example dead leaves animal waste etc .This means cleaning is not required:no1: these bugs waste then becomes fertiliser for the plants as if these bugs wernt already worth there weight in gold they also control fungal and mould outbreaks and other undesirable waste thus reducing the chances of making a pet ill or catching anything .....
> 
> ...


well lol I have to admit that was very informative someone has done there homework lol 
tbh bugs arnt something I have just looked into I usually follow the care sheets feed 4-5 crix per feeding e.t.c 
but if it works for you and your animals why not...
as for the substrate generally I was on about some inverts for e.g mites ae a major problem within products designed for them which can casue massive issues within a collecion and mainly if you are trying to breed or sell them.
I mus say however your knowledge here far out weighs mine.: victory:


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> well lol I have to admit that was very informative someone has done there homework lol
> tbh bugs arnt something I have just looked into I usually follow the care sheets feed 4-5 crix per feeding e.t.c
> but if it works for you and your animals why not...
> as for the substrate generally I was on about some inverts for e.g mites ae a major problem within products designed for them which can casue massive issues within a collecion and mainly if you are trying to breed or sell them.
> I mus say however your knowledge here far out weighs mine.: victory:


visit dendroboard or dendroworld (dartfrog forums) im nothing more than a bumbling idiot compared to them ! as for mites and worms and other parasites according to this article im ripping off to sound smarter than i am:lol2: parasites are often passed on through waste excreted by a host:blush:so unless your adding infected waste to your viv:lol2: nothing live should harbour any of these "nasties" apparently viv hygene also plays an important part drawing me back again to the cleanliness provided by live tanks:Na_Na_Na_Na:lets face it live tanks are the super heroes of the herp world :lol2:


also i did edit that last post since you replied to be a bit more informative


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

Sambridge15, I think you need to be careful about how you put across your opinions. After all, they are just opinions. If there was a right way to do this, everybody would do it - it doesn't make you any more knowledgable just because you use live plants. If you manage to create a "realistic" habitat (inside a tiny glass box with sliding doors) then that's great, but remember animals die a lot quicker in natural habitats than in normal captivity. The reason people go to certain lengths to insure cleanliness and sterility in their vivs is so their pet can live longer.

If you're going to go to such extremes as using woodlice and fungus-eating creatures, why not introduce predators that will eat your frogs as well? It's a never ending cycle that isn't solved by using moss instead of paper for instance. You simply can't replicate a natural habitat in your own house. If you care that much about your frogs, take them back to a rainforest and let them go!

Just remember that the most "knowledgable" keepers use hundreds of different techniques. There's a reason companies like Exo Terra are still in business - they sell products that keep animals alive and healthy for a long time.


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

Willz0r2010 said:


> But the only way to replicate their natural "surroundings" is to have a vivarium the size of London. You quite simply cannot replicate it in a small glass/wooden box!
> 
> You can spend hours and hours on replicating a tiny little section of natural habitat in a small box, but wild animals don't stay in one place forever. They move around, and explore different types of environment. I guess the closest you could realistically do is to create an elaborate lavish realistic environment for every type of habitat they would encounter naturally. I.e. have a desert setup leading into a stream bed setup, leading into a savannah set up, leading into a rocky ledge setup etc etc. Animals migrate and move around and get lost, and travel miles to find mating partners. They definitely don't stay within the size of an Exo Terra glass box their entire life!


I completely agree with you... As much as Id love to give my snakes the best they can get, i personally just dont really think its worth the effort.. since the snake has been bred, hatched and brought up in such aritificial surroundings, I really think that as long as the snake is comfortable, it doesnt care wether its decor is natural/organic or not, as long as it can hide, eat, sleep and drink I feel my snake is happy, unless is appears otherwise.

If you do think of it in a more academic way.. wouldnt it be probable that our captive bred reptiles may not survive as well if released into their natural habitat after 5 years captive?
Furthermore... A snakes lifespan in captivity can reach 25 average... I dunno if its just me but i highly doubt snakes in the wild reach anywhere near that.

Maybe im asking for critiscism, but As long as my snake has adiquite space and the essentials, I feel its happy and wont make a difference to its quality of life wether its natural-like or not


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

bramblebunny said:


> Still playing devils advocate :devil: ... Just because you can't replicate the whole of the surroundings of your animal does that mean you shouldn't try to replicate any of the surroundings especially if the animal is wild caught? :devil:


Oh but most people do... perhaps not with corns and royals being bred, but My corns and adult macklots have plenty of space, the setup looks pretty simple and artificial, but the snake doesnt know any better does it.
We do try and create _Some_ of the natural surroundings, such and water, hides branches and plants. so what if they are plastic, probably less harmful to the snake and easier to maintain.

To the last bit - Just dont get a WC animal lol :2thumb:


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Willz0r2010 said:


> Sambridge15, I think you need to be careful about how you put across your opinions. After all, they are just opinions. If there was a right way to do this, everybody would do it - it doesn't make you any more knowledgable just because you use live plants. If you manage to create a "realistic" habitat (inside a tiny glass box with sliding doors) then that's great, but remember animals die a lot quicker in natural habitats than in normal captivity. The reason people go to certain lengths to insure cleanliness and sterility in their vivs is so their pet can live longer.
> 
> If you're going to go to such extremes as using woodlice and fungus-eating creatures, why not introduce predators that will eat your frogs as well? It's a never ending cycle that isn't solved by using moss instead of paper for instance. You simply can't replicate a natural habitat in your own house. If you care that much about your frogs, take them back to a rainforest and let them go!
> 
> ...



that post gave me some good chuckles and frankly it was all lighthearted and informative between myself and Salazare Slytherin as im sure others would agree i was just pointing out the many benefits of live tanks....

anyway on to your post ill start with this "After all, they are just opinions" its not did you never see the lion king circle of life etc etc....a planted tank simply replicates this in a small area admittedly iv made a few assumptions about benefits to preventing desease etc but on the hypothesis that a live tank is better cleaned or rather more frequently and efficiently cleaned. 

a*)inside a tiny glass box with sliding doors*)i have front oppening doors not sliding :Na_Na_Na_Na:

b) *"animals die a lot quicker in natural habitats" 100% untrue animal die alot quicker in the wild in fact if you read the benefits above im fairly sure they would live longer,*" throughout your posts you seem to confuse wild with natural.

c)"*to insure cleanliness and sterility in their vivs is so their pet can live longer*" live planted tanks process waste alot faster than manual cleaning they also require alot less interference improving sterility and minimising chances of exterior contamination

d)*If you're going to go to such extremes as using woodlice and fungus-eating creatures,* :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
whats extreme about adding beneficial organisms to a tank? they clean my tank and provide healthy food,if a fish keeper added a bottom feeder or some shrimp is that extreme is the use of live rock in marine aquaria extream??frankly id say adding in something as harmful as bleach is very extreme adding beneficial things is rather mundane..... 

e)*why not introduce predators that will eat your frogs as well? *uh because my bugs extend the life of my frogs clean for me and generally make my tank interesting to watch also provide fertilise for my plants so to some things up are very beneficial:gasp:

a predator would not be very beneficial.....although i guess i could say i keep woodlice and bugs with frogs as the apex preditors in my micro rainforest habitat to argue your future response of "oh but thats not a natural tank without a predator":Na_Na_Na_Na: then i supose i could also bring up the extream toxicity of my frogs meaning they have almost no natural preditors in the wild to begin with:Na_Na_Na_Na:

f)* "You simply can't replicate a natural habitat in your own house"*i can like I said i cant replicate the wild but im not trying to make a rainforest im trying to make small habitat with identicle conditions as the rainforest in the confines of a vivarium.....Large Vivarium Construction - Page 54 - Dendroboard this guy can clearly do both:lol2:

g)*Just remember that the most "knowledgable" keepers use hundreds of different techniques.* There's a reason companies like Exo Terra are still in business - they sell products that keep* animals alive and healthy for a long time*."heat rocks,bearded dragon starter set,animals recommended for there vivs(12 cuce viv for darts:censorthere new micro terrariums,the horror stories on equipment section of exploding bulbs, bad example there bud:lol2:also what do you see in every example of there natural terrariums aside from the starter kits?LIVE PLANTS

h)*"If you care that much about your frogs, take them back to a rainforest and let them go!"* i care enough about my frogs to provide as close of a representation as i can provide and frankly i really dont get your problem with me doing that?and trying to show some support for others to do the same as there are so many :censor: there who through no fault of there own continue to keep cycling myths about the "dangers of live planting"frankly if people want to use bog roll and the like i dont mind like i said it was light-hearted above its peoples choice but there are many benefits of using a live tank far more so than not both aestheticly to the owner and for the health of the pet

well that about sums up my reply dont mean to come of nasty:lol2:but id prefere if you read it in a kind of mocking/sarcastic sort of way as its hard to convey this in writing ....i love a good debate :no1:


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## GeckoD (May 30, 2010)

For it to be truly natural we would have to be very cruel!

ie; sometimes not feeding for weeks, adding a predatory element, ailments left untreated, no handling, no contact, realistic weather (excess water, high winds) etc. 
We can however do our best to simulate it to the best of our knowledge and ability and if our budget allows...Actually that just sounds stupid!


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

Sam, all I can say is - what a ridiculous response to an opinion. I've never seen so many silly icons used by somebody over the age of 12 in my entire life!

NB: Nobody "adds" bleach to their vivs. It's a way of cleaning to avoid the parasites that kill and harm animals in the wild. What's the point in getting a pet animal and then subjecting it to the natural dangers that would normally kill them?

This isn't a discussion that can be won by anybody because it's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, putting frogs in a small glass tank and filling it with woodlice is nowhere near a real rainforest. You have no predators (every animal has predators, don't be naive in the fact that poison dartfrogs don't have predators) and you can't come close to replicating seasonal change in a glass tank in your bedroom. It's impossible. Just having woodlice from your garden in the South Coast and random live plants does NOT make your little glass tank the same as a rainforest. Sorry, it just doesn't.

And you're of the opinion that you're recreating a chunk of the Amazon, which will make your animals live longer and be more natural. If that's your opinion, go ahead and have that opinion. If you look at the big picture I don't think you can possibly say that you're really creating a "natural" environment, but believe what you want.

At the end of the day, you've bought frogs as pets. That instantly stops them being natural, and no matter how many bits of moss and woodlice you add won't transform them back to a natural environment.

That's my opinion. Feel free to use 400 little smiley faces to make your case, but it's still my opinion.

If you REALLY want to make it 100% natural, add some blokes with arrows to capture your frogs and use their poison to shoot enemy tribes. [insert 50 ROTFL pictures]


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## RoyalBlood (Jan 5, 2011)

sambridge15 said:


> that post gave me some good chuckles and frankly it was all lighthearted and informative between myself and Salazare Slytherin as im sure others would agree i was just pointing out the many benefits of live tanks....
> 
> anyway on to your post ill start with this "After all, they are just opinions" its not did you never see the lion king circle of life etc etc....a planted tank simply replicates this in a small area admittedly iv made a few assumptions about benefits to preventing desease etc but on the hypothesis that a live tank is better cleaned or rather more frequently and efficiently cleaned.
> 
> ...


This makes me laugh. And all I can say is, Im sure your frogs love you dearly....


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

sambridge15 said:


> visit dendroboard or dendroworld (dartfrog forums) im nothing more than a bumbling idiot compared to them ! as for mites and worms and other parasites according to this article im ripping off to sound smarter than i am:lol2: parasites are often passed on through waste excreted by a host:blush:so unless your adding infected waste to your viv:lol2: nothing live should harbour any of these "nasties" apparently viv hygene also plays an important part drawing me back again to the cleanliness provided by live tanks:Na_Na_Na_Na:lets face it live tanks are the super heroes of the herp world :lol2:
> 
> 
> also i did edit that last post since you replied to be a bit more informative


 
I most certainly will have a look do you have a link 
lol another problem people may come across is there is another negative side to doing this in any local area, has where your locating the bugs been sprayed with pesticide, again not alot of information but if you live near woodland probibly not, and lol cant beat mother nature that I do agree with.


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## Becky Wheeler (Jun 15, 2006)

Willz0r2010 said:


> Sam, all I can say is - what a ridiculous response to an opinion. I've never seen so many silly icons used by somebody over the age of 12 in my entire life!
> 
> NB: Nobody "adds" bleach to their vivs. It's a way of cleaning to avoid the parasites that kill and harm animals in the wild. What's the point in getting a pet animal and then subjecting it to the natural dangers that would normally kill them?
> 
> ...


 
Hi mate,

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion that's why we have forums. But I don't think you've read Sam's post properly! I suggest you read it again. 

As sam said.....

I care enough about my frogs to provide as close of a representation as i can provide. 

You said:
Just having woodlice from your garden in the South Coast and random live plants does NOT make your little glass tank the same as a rainforest

Sam said:
uh because my bugs extend the life of my frogs clean for me and generally make my tank interesting to watch also provide fertilise for my plants so to some things up are very beneficial:gasp:.

I could go on quoting people but I think you just need to go back over what Sam has said and realise he is'nt trying to create a rainforest he's just trying to make his frogs as comfortable as he can in the space of a vivarium.

This is how he's done it and it works for him. And as far as attacking him on the smileys front, The written word can be taken in the wrong context far too easily And I for one use smileys to let people know when i'm joking about and that just appears to be what Sam has done?. 

Smileys are there to be used? So why not use them?.

At the end of the day this is a forum where people express ideas and opinions, everyone has there way of doing things, there will always be disagreements but theres no need to turn an opinion into an arguement.

You both do things differently, they both work for you, End of. :grouphug:


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

I totally agree - I stated numerous times that it's not going to be a an argument worth having because it's based entirely on opinion =P

It's just that when he said this "im trying to make small habitat with identicle conditions as the rainforest", along with stating that people who use plants are the only "knowledgable" keepers and that all the people in the Phib section are the ones that should hold the keys to life itself etc etc it sorta annoyed me a teensy bit haha!

We're ALL trying to make our vivariums as pleasant as possible for our animals - most people on this forum are incredibly dedicated and caring keepers and do as much as they can for their animals, be it snakes, lizards, frogs etc. To say that the only ones who actually know what they're doing are the ones who use woodlice in their tanks seems a bit extreme to me.


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## gray1 (May 24, 2010)

A natural type enviroment in captivity can be better in some ways, you have the benefits of the some of the good of real enviroments without some of the bad parts.

The thing I struggle with is that making a natural dry enviroment such as for my leopard gecko isn't really possible. It's not like someone comes along with the bleech and also does a substrate change in the wild, but yet his viv still needs cleaning from time to time. 
Having said that I did eliminate the substrate problem by filling the viv with slate rock and made a ledge around the edge. Much easier to just wipe over rock. I've had a think of trying to get some dry grass in there but I'm just not sure how to do it.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Willz0r2010 said:


> Sam, all I can say is - what a ridiculous response to an opinion. I've never seen so many silly icons used by somebody over the age of 12 in my entire life!
> 
> NB: Nobody "adds" bleach to their vivs. It's a way of cleaning to avoid the parasites that kill and harm animals in the wild. What's the point in getting a pet animal and then subjecting it to the natural dangers that would normally kill them?
> 
> ...


the smilies where there to maintain the light heartedness the rest of the thread seems to be in..... if it upsets you ill refrane from using them and just be as dull as you?sorry i want to make use of every little trick of the trade to extend the life of my frogs whilst providing a wonderful viv for myself to look at.....

prehapse you should look into just how poisonous dartfrogs are they would make a king cobra wet its pants,as for preditors they have 1 known preditor Liophis ( Leimadophis ) epinephelus.....even that is by no mean imune to the frogs unbelievably strong poison capable of killing "15,000 humans per gram" anactodotle evidence from wikipedia also states "Chickens and dogs have died from contact with a paper towel on which a frog had walked"(this is from terribilis cant find stuff on dendrobates)

any way onto bleach actually* read the post* actually look into these nasties"there imaginary!!"they wont exist in anything we have outside in this country, most of what your scrubbing and killing is in fact *very very beneficial *prehapse visit a reef forum and sugest scrubbing live rock with bleach for use see how that goes.....

then id like you to think about seasonal change in the rainforest just google it or in fact think what causes seasons and where can you find rainforests(hint equator)

im not simply chucking in a few woodlice im using custodian bugs Seira,Folsomia candida,Tomocerus longicornis,Trichorhina tomentosa,Porcellio scaber, Oniscus asellus(various woodlice and springtails)Eisenia foetida, Eisenia andrei, Eisenia hortensis and Dendrodrilus rubidus(various worms)plus whatever other bugs enter into the viv with the leaf litter( taken the names from the website i purchased them all) these worms act to replicate note replicate not recreate the rainforest buy simulating the break down of waste into usable materials for the plants .This can be them breaking down dead leaves from the plants like when a bromliade flower dies eating the waste from the frogs reducingthe chance of paricites .or controlling mould and fungus that my spout in the viv(some are there you cant even see) 

as for random plants i use bromeliads Neoregelia /Vriesea/Cryptanthus the hearlteaf plant Philodendron scandens all found near dartfrogs i have 1 plant that is not found in the rainforest + near dartfrogs ficus pumilia(has many similar plants in the rainforest) so hardly random 

as i say your really confusing what im trying to do im *trying to replicate* not recreate the jungle i still dont understand your problem with me doing so and trying to encourage others to also reep the benefits provided by such a setup thse are not opinions this is how it works outside and it can easily work inside a viv 

also only philiobites terreblis was used for dart tips i keep dendrobates


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

gray1 said:


> A natural type enviroment in captivity can be better in some ways,* you have the benefits of the some of the good of real enviroments without some of the bad parts.*
> 
> The thing I struggle with is that making a natural dry enviroment such as for my leopard gecko isn't really possible. It's not like someone comes along with the bleech and also does a substrate change in the wild, but yet his viv still needs cleaning from time to time.
> Having said that I did eliminate the substrate problem by filling the viv with slate rock and made a ledge around the edge. Much easier to just wipe over rock. I've had a think of trying to get some dry grass in there but I'm just not sure how to do it.



thats a very good way of putting it:bash:should have really just said that in my post :lol2excessive use of smilies yay :lol2 go to the planted section a guy called pendragon has done a lovely planted leo viv using some desert grasses im sure he would know alot more..as for the live bugs part im unsure if he has done that, but looking into what kind of animals would break down there waste in the wild is normally a good place to start 

must say rainforest vivs are alot easier to create live vivs out of


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Willz0r2010 said:


> I totally agree - I stated numerous times that it's not going to be a an argument worth having because it's based entirely on opinion =P
> 
> It's just that when he said this "im trying to make small habitat with identicle conditions as the rainforest", along with stating that people who use plants are the only "knowledgable" keepers and that* all the people in the Phib section are the ones that should hold the keys to life itself *etc etc it sorta annoyed me a teensy bit haha!
> 
> We're ALL trying to make our vivariums as pleasant as possible for our animals - most people on this forum are incredibly dedicated and caring keepers and do as much as they can for their animals, be it snakes, lizards, frogs etc. To say that the only ones who actually know what they're doing are the ones who use woodlice in their tanks seems a bit extreme to me.


dude seriously listen to the others *read the posts* iv made you might actually learn something 

as for "im *trying* to make small habitat with identicle conditions as the rainforest" why did that annoy you?


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

I don't have a problem with you at all mate. Don't get flustered. As I said waaaay back at the beginning, I just think you need to be careful how you come across. You've said things in this thread along the lines of "in fact i find the clean, clean, sterilise, nuke, microwave attitude of the other sections hilarious" and "e)the disgusting eyesore that is most unplanted vivs" and "as you can tell im very pro plant as are most of the more "knowledgeable" keepers." It just comes across as very snobbish and arrogant. I'm sure that's not deliberate, but this was never meant to become an argument, because most of the threads on this forum end up that way. 

Point is, there is no right or wrong. And that's just a simple fact. We all do things differently and this isn't something that can be "won." I'm personally of the opinion that natural tanks look FAR better than clean sterilised paper towel tanks (my build thread that you commented on should prove that, surely!) It's just a bit silly to condemn everybody who doesn't use planted tanks as "hilarious" or not "knowledgable." That's all.


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

P.S. Posting quotations in the Amphibian section just to get a rise out of somebody who doesn't share your opinion is a tad petty.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Willz0r2010 said:


> P.S. Posting quotations in the Amphibian section just to get a rise out of somebody who doesn't share your opinion is a tad petty.





Willz0r2010 said:


> I don't have a problem with you at all mate. Don't get flustered. As I said waaaay back at the beginning, I just think you need to be careful how you come across. You've said things in this thread along the lines of "in fact i find the clean, clean, sterilise, nuke, microwave attitude of the other sections hilarious" and "e)the disgusting eyesore that is most unplanted vivs" and "as you can tell im very pro plant as are most of the more "knowledgeable" keepers." It just comes across as very snobbish and arrogant. I'm sure that's not deliberate, but this was never meant to become an argument, because most of the threads on this forum end up that way.
> 
> Point is, there is no right or wrong. And that's just a simple fact. We all do things differently and this isn't something that can be "won." I'm personally of the opinion that natural tanks look FAR better than clean sterilised paper towel tanks (my build thread that you commented on should prove that, surely!) It's just a bit silly to condemn everybody who doesn't use planted tanks as "hilarious" or not "knowledgable." That's all.





sambridge15 said:


> well that about sums up my reply dont mean to come of nasty:lol2:but id prefere if you read it in a kind of mocking/sarcastic sort of way as its hard to convey this in writing ....i love a good debate :no1:


like i said was all lighthearted between my self and sathasar all the posts where said in a mocking joking way as every1 bar yourselffor some reasons(perhaps your agree about something) seems to have read them despite my excesive use of smilies to try and hint towards this.......

as for the phib section i didnt mention you by name and they will get a good laugh out of it so its hardly a dig at you sorry if you feel that way and ill take it down to avoid any further problems

im just buffled by how wound up your getting that im trying to replicate a rainforest as close as i can and speak to others of such benefits

as for the viv i dont think it looks to far off in terms of closness and it will look alot closer as the ficus moss and Philodendron spreads im also by no mean an expert and some of the vivs you can see in threads like "show off your cool viv" are alot lot closer









in future may i recommend that you read the posts a little more closely before replying as you seem to make many assumptions over exaggerations and missunderstandings that have caused this thread to go from a discussion on benefits of natural habitats into an argument if any1 is intrested in the benefits im also about for a pm but i do recommend dendroworld and dendroboard id also like to say sorry to the op for going off topic a tad and to you willis the above is not a dig at you it just seams that reading into things a bit more may benefit you in the future


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

I wonder if this gave the OP anything haha!

I'm sure somebody mentioned it earlier, but on the subject of "what's best for the animal" I think it comes to down to whether the animal is Wild Caught or Captive Bred. If you were to take a wild animal out of it's natural habitat and put it in a minimalist box, with paper towels and a water bowl I have no idea how long it would survive (or at least, how happy it would be) but are captive bred animals more suited to this environment? When you walk into a reptile shop and see hundreds of Royal Pythons in tiny RUBs on paper towels - is this something they are born into and ergo get used to straight away, or does it still have a negative effect on their instinct as a wild animal?


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Willz0r2010 said:


> I wonder if this gave the OP anything haha!
> 
> I'm sure somebody mentioned it earlier, but on the subject of "what's best for the animal" I think it comes to down to whether the animal is Wild Caught or Captive Bred. If you were to take a wild animal out of it's natural habitat and put it in a minimalist box, with paper towels and a water bowl I have no idea how long it would survive (or at least, how happy it would be) but are captive bred animals more suited to this environment? When you walk into a reptile shop and see hundreds of Royal Pythons in tiny RUBs on paper towels - is this something they are born into and ergo get used to straight away, or does it still have a negative effect on their instinct as a wild animal?


i dont think the pets are self aware of the fact that there no longer in there natural surrounding provided the animals needs can be met in terms of feeding humidity temps security size i doubt the animal gives a :censor:i doubt it even notices perhaps some1 could do an experiment using say a 10ft viv with 5 ft of planted and natural and 5 ft sterilised and plastic to see if animals have a preference.

with the speed forests and other habitats important to herps you frequently see urbanisation of herps for example my dad frequently tells stories of when he was in the merch and the ceilings of singapore being covered with geckos waiting around the lights,this is not there natural habitat but they have adapted to these surrounding very well and are probably doing better in these surrounding id imagine the abundance of food a mates along with a lack of predictors allows these geckos to live a similar life to that of a captive gecko. 

i dont doubt for a moment that herps are proabbly more adapt to life in the confines of a vivarium than most small mammals like mice and hamsters but taking some of the aspects i have stated from the wild and introducing them to a vivarium are very beneficial not introducing them is not going to cause any problems although it may help prevent some from occurring like the need to clean (boooring) after all herps are some of the oldest species on the planet if they could not adapt they would not be here today in such abundance and variaty (think i ripped off sir david for that 1!)


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

well lol this thread has went way out of my area?
however there are still some good points but still you cant compete with nature in the wild 100% in a box.
*so I shall take a bow out now instead of rumbling on about krap I done understand*: victory:


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## Willz0r2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

Ha, there's nothing like a heated debate between passionate people, is there!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> well lol this thread has went way out of my area?
> however there are still some good points but still you cant compete with nature in the wild 100% in a box.
> *so I shall take a bow out now instead of rumbling on about krap I done understand*: victory:


 
I meant to say dont instead of done.....:blush:
but yeah lol the way I look at it there is alot of wrong ways to do things in many peoples opinions
you can put two gardners in the same garden and you can garuntee they will both do the same job but in a different way.
probibly with much debate and argument.

thats the only way I can describe it haha : victory:
but on a brighter note debates are good for the mind and even occasionally educatinal.


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## Becky Wheeler (Jun 15, 2006)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I meant to say dont instead of done.....:blush:
> but yeah lol the way I look at it there is alot of wrong ways to do things in many peoples opinions
> you can put two gardners in the same garden and you can garuntee they will both do the same job but in a different way.
> probibly with much debate and argument.
> ...


Bravo hunny!! Well said :2thumb:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Becky Wheeler said:


> Bravo hunny!! Well said :2thumb:


Thanks Becky lol : victory:


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