# Disappointed with T5s



## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

A week ago I decided to upgrade the lighting in my adult Timon lepidus vivs. They had previously had a T8 12% tube and a 2% tube in each viv. I swapped these for the Arcadia D3+ T5 slimline luminaire as the T5s are meant to be far superior.

Since then I have noticed a marked difference in their behaviour. They no longer bask much, are off their food and hide away most of the day :gasp:. The temps in the vivs haven't changed as they are thermostatically ccontrolled.

So what's going on? I can only make a few guesses:

The UVb is so strong that they don't need to be exposed to it for very long to get their "fix".

or

The UVb is just too strong for this species.

or

I've installed them wrong. (They are attached to the roof of the viv just in front of the top/front plate, with the "blank" side of the luminaire against the front of the viv)

or

They are missing the extra UVa of the 2% tube. To my primitive mammal eyes it seems a lot less bright in the vivs.

or

They just don't like change.

Any more suggestions very welcome. If it was only one of them acting differently I wouldn't be so worried but all four of them are acting very under-par.


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## Bradley (Aug 26, 2009)

It could be they would be better with the 6% D3 bulb.

The bulbs give off a lot more uv and a lot more light than any T8 bulb. I would see how they go with it. They may just need adjusting to higher levels of uv. Arcadiajohn will be able to help further.


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## dramen (May 29, 2012)

I'm new to Uv lighting so i can only guess at a few things from speaking with ArcadiaJohn before.

First of all maybe they just dont like the change and are sulking a bit. My leos get like that if i even move their food bowl or something.

When you say its fixed at the front of the viv with the blank side against the front of the vivarium i guess you mean against the side that you would normally open to get them out? Could it be reflecting light off the glass and its freaking them out?

How far away from the ground level is the tube? (A question John would probably ask)

I know i am a newbie at using UV but just trying to help and maybe give a fresh look at things. This will also help me as i will be switching over to T5 on wednesday.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

I've heard of some reps hiding away at first as they're not used to the intensity. It could also be a case of its too powerful for such a sp, I wouldn't know. Could you try mounting it further away if poss?


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## graham40 (Dec 19, 2011)

Wow I think this is a first
Hi jools lol
Erm well I have had t5 in my Beardie Vivs for over a year now and to be honest have no complaints. 
I was also thinking of changing my Exo canopies to the new Arcadia ones that hold t5s instead of using the compacts as I have a 10% compact and a 5% compact bulb in the canopy and my p.grandis just seem to spend all their time under the uv lights on the glass. I am really surprised you are not impressed with them. But as I have been to see you several times I no how much you know your reps so I can vouch for the fact that change in behaviour is a definite one. Hope you get it sorted jools I'm sure John will be along soon to talk


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## andy01427 (Dec 17, 2011)

Hi Jools, 

I have just purchased and installed 2 T5's into my Exo Terra Canopy, I have to say they are amazing they are so powerful. maybe Arcadia D3 or D3+ might help


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies folks



Bradley said:


> It could be they would be better with the 6% D3 bulb.


Possibly - but I would have thought they could cope with more



dramen said:


> I'm new to Uv lighting so i can only guess at a few things from speaking with ArcadiaJohn before.
> 
> First of all maybe they just dont like the change and are sulking a bit. My leos get like that if i even move their food bowl or something.
> 
> ...


I'm sure John will be along in a bit. They don't seem to be freaked out by reflections.



tomcannon said:


> I've heard of some reps hiding away at first as they're not used to the intensity. It could also be a case of its too powerful for such a sp, I wouldn't know. Could you try mounting it further away if poss?


This is one of the things I'm wondering. They are on the rooves of 4x2x2 vivs



graham40 said:


> Wow I think this is a first
> Hi jools lol
> Erm well I have had t5 in my Beardie Vivs for over a year now and to be honest have no complaints.
> I was also thinking of changing my Exo canopies to the new Arcadia ones that hold t5s instead of using the compacts as I have a 10% compact and a 5% compact bulb in the canopy and my p.grandis just seem to spend all their time under the uv lights on the glass. I am really surprised you are not impressed with them. But as I have been to see you several times I no how much you know your reps so I can vouch for the fact that change in behaviour is a definite one. Hope you get it sorted jools I'm sure John will be along soon to talk


Thanks Graham for those kind words. It was after your last visit when we touched on the subject that I decided to change them - so I've got YOU to blame :lol2:



andy01427 said:


> Hi Jools,
> 
> I have just purchased and installed 2 T5's into my Exo Terra Canopy, I have to say they are amazing they are so powerful. maybe Arcadia D3 or D3+ might help


These are Arcadia D3+


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Sounds like its simply too much UVB for them at that distance. You could try having the T5s on for just a few hours a day. They don't really need it on all day to get their D metabolite blood serum levels up to a healthy point. Studies have shown a couple hours a day is about all they need.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

jarich said:


> Sounds like its simply too much UVB for them at that distance. You could try having the T5s on for just a few hours a day. They don't really need it on all day to get their D metabolite blood serum levels up to a healthy point. Studies have shown a couple hours a day is about all they need.


I had wondered if this might be the answer. I'm waiting to hear what Arcadia John says before I make any decisions.


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## graham40 (Dec 19, 2011)

jarich said:


> Sounds like its simply too much UVB for them at that distance. You could try having the T5s on for just a few hours a day. They don't really need it on all day to get their D metabolite blood serum levels up to a healthy point. Studies have shown a couple hours a day is about all they need.


This may well be the key with then this new LED lighting on top for when the uv is out to provide more lighting than just the spot lamp. 
Don't blame me as this is the first time I've herd someone not be happy with them. 
Maybe the 6% maybe better. I wonder if we can find the uv levels of summer in say southern Spain and see how they differ from johns number with out puts of 12% and 6%


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Are you still supplementing D3 often?
They should have options to bask at high temperatures and hide from the UVB at the same time and the uv should only be 2/3 of the tank I believe.
Why not look into Retes stacks and make one out of curved cork flats, this will allow them to bask as the higher temperatures while still being hidden from the UVB.
If your lizards are sitting under UVB and or heating all day then it is too low, perhaps you're just used to the amount of time they used to spend out in the UVB because its lower and now they've reduced that active basking time because of the change?


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

graham40 said:


> Don't blame me as this is the first time I've herd someone not be happy with them.


I was teasing Graham! Of course I don't blame you. I know they are meant to be the best which is why I've swapped to them.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

You raise some interesting points Chris - my replies in red



Chris18 said:


> Are you still supplementing D3 often?
> 
> No because they aren't really eating much at all - usually they are avid feeders - if they ain't feeding, they ain't taking in supplements. I have tried dusting with ordinary plain calci dust (the Ca requirements of lacertids is apparantly high) but they still aren't interested.
> 
> ...


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

jools said:


> You raise some interesting points Chris - my replies in red
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks anyway Chris


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Are you leaving food in overnight?


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

No I don't leave food in overnight.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Sometimes more UV is not always better for certain species to put it simply. I am sure the T5s are great for species like beardies and uros. But most species do not need to be exposed to high levels of UV radiation. 

Wall lizardsdo ike a nice bask but they do so for short periods several times a day. I know this because they are all over my yard.

The T5 might just be offering too much.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Gregg M said:


> Sometimes more UV is not always better for certain species to put it simply. I am sure the T5s are great for species like beardies and uros. But most species do not need to be exposed to high levels of UV radiation.
> 
> Wall lizardsdo ike a nice bask but they do so for short periods several times a day. I know this because they are all over my yard.
> 
> The T5 might just be offering too much.


I'm thinking you are probably right Gregg. I'm waiting for a reply from Arcadia John to see if he can shed more light on this (no pun intended!). But I'm seriously considering reinstalling the 2% tubes - to come on at the same time as the basking lamps - the vivs look quite dark with only the basking lamps. Then just having the T5s on for a few hours in early the day while they are basking to warm up (something they are not doing ATM) or changing them for 6%. I'm wishing now that I'd installed the 2 foot luminaires to give more of a photogradient in the vivs.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi,

I will clear up a few points for you.

The Arcadia reptile T5 system is a true High output T5 system and as such provide a serious amount of visible light and UV in both UVA and UVB.

This is WAY more than an old style T8 hybrid of a 12% and 2% lamp combo.

These lamps are super bright and as such we ale ays advise good use of shade as part of the light and shade method and hides.

In simple terms there are a few reasons why some animals may look like they are hiding away.

1. New gear syndrome, I.e something new in the viv and they freak out
2. It's too bright for that species over a too wide an area.
3. The most common!!! Reptiles are tetrachromats and will seek out and select the exposure levels that they require at that time. Beimg able to see power gradients of uv in the wild offers an animal the ability to get what it needs as it needs it. Some will seek out massive power for a few mins and then dart off into safety again and some will prefer to crawl about in lower power ratios. It is in every case self regulation!! This is the way to be sure that the animal gets what it needs from light as it needs it.

I have seen 3 reports now in 3 years and over 50k setups where the animals had adjusted there basking times down. They are Simply getting all they need in a shorter period of time. This is great for them but can be frustrating for us as keepers as we inherently have a selfish desire to see the animals that we keep.

You can increase the basking time by swapping the D3+ lamp for a D3 6% this will decrease the available power and it so they have to spend longer in the open.

T5 is the way forward being flicker free and so accurate over a long period of time. We just need to know how to make full use of it per species.

These reports are very, very rare! They also have no patten. I have hundreds of reports of crepuscular species becoming vastly more active than ever before under T5 and that is a power increase of 10-20x then you get the odd species that is so good at self regulation that they get all they need in a short time and then act as they would in the wild....which is what we should be seeking to re-create and hide away again.

Change the lamp to the D3 and I'm sure you will see them more

John


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Interesting......

My Timon (pater and Lepidus) would bask pretty much all day when the sun was out, outdoors.

They only went to cover when startled or the cloud cover got too much and the temperature dropped.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Many thanks for your reply John, it makes much sense and I was coming to the same conclusions myself. I shall swap the light in one of the vivs for a D3 6% and for the other viv I will try reducing the hours the D3+ is on and see which seems to work best for me. I can quite accept them hiding away more as this is natural behaviour (although as you say it is a little frustrating) but it was the reduced appetite which concerned me more. 

You comment that the luminaire is much brighter than my old set-up but it certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bright in visible light to my eyes - perhaps that is not relevant.

I shall report back once I've changed the tube / regime


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Yeah it's a mystery. But id more inclined to think it is conincidental! I say this because the barometric pressure is playing havoc with huge numbers of animals again including my own! The office B.D is eating less than half of usual, the Amphibs have burrowed in again! The inverts are digging in and my royal that NEVER refuses a feed..Ever in 5 years refused??? To cap it off I have received hundreds of emails from people all over the uk asking why their animals have slid towards brumation again practically overnight.

The relationship between reptiles and the magnetic fields and pressures is something that holds a lot of interest for me. Short term records do indicate that those harshest winters and sudden bad weather seasons do effect captives and they do start to hunker down. Brumation is of course a natural survival technique meant to help them through cold of food shortage seasons. It's Been a bad year for most this year which has shown a long, cold harsh winter. If we set our long range forecast by the reptiles id say were in for another crap summer!

John




jools said:


> Many thanks for your reply John, it makes much sense and I was coming to the same conclusions myself. I shall swap the light in one of the vivs for a D3 6% and for the other viv I will try reducing the hours the D3+ is on and see which seems to work best for me. I can quite accept them hiding away more as this is natural behaviour (although as you say it is a little frustrating) but it was the reduced appetite which concerned me more.
> 
> You comment that the luminaire is much brighter than my old set-up but it certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bright in visible light to my eyes - perhaps that is not relevant.
> 
> I shall report back once I've changed the tube / regime


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Arcadiajohn said:


> In simple terms there are a few reasons why some animals may look like they are hiding away.
> 
> 1. New gear syndrome, I.e something new in the viv and they freak out


 
New gear syndrome? That syndrome is about as real as bigfoot. "Freaking out" equates to stress. Basically, when something is not correct, they stress and behave irregularly.




Arcadiajohn said:


> 2. It's too bright for that species over a too wide an area.


 
Too bright and too much exposure. This is most likely the case here. Like I said, more is not always better for many species.




Arcadiajohn said:


> 3. The most common!!! Reptiles are tetrachromats and will seek out and select the exposure levels that they require at that time. Beimg able to see power gradients of uv in the wild offers an animal the ability to get what it needs as it needs it. Some will seek out massive power for a few mins and then dart off into safety again and some will prefer to crawl about in lower power ratios. It is in every case self regulation!! This is the way to be sure that the animal gets what it needs from light as it needs it.
> 
> I have seen 3 reports now in 3 years and over 50k setups where the animals had adjusted there basking times down. They are Simply getting all they need in a shorter period of time. This is great for them but can be frustrating for us as keepers as we inherently have a selfish desire to see the animals that we keep.


 
Depending on the set up and species, this is generally not a good thing John. UV light is only one small thing that some (few) species actually need. They also need to thermoregulate. If they are ducking out for most of the day, they are not properly thermoregulating. This could be the reason why Jools wall lizards are not feeding properly.



Arcadiajohn said:


> Yeah it's a mystery. But id more inclined to think it is conincidental! I say this because the barometric pressure is playing havoc with huge numbers of animals again including my own! The office B.D is eating less than half of usual, the Amphibs have burrowed in again! The inverts are digging in and my royal that NEVER refuses a feed..Ever in 5 years refused??? To cap it off I have received hundreds of emails from people all over the uk asking why their animals have slid towards brumation again practically overnight.


Right John, so, it is a coincidence that these lizards went from being active and pounding food to hiding out and eating nothing as soon as the jighting was changed. And your answer to this "mystery" is barometric pressure and magnetic fields? Awesome...
This is just odd. If these animals are "slidding towards brumation again" there is something wrong and it has nothing to do with magnetic pull, pole shifts, barometric pressure, negative ions, or anything like that.

I just dont see any "havoc" being played on our animals. In fact from what I can see from my collection, and others in the US and UK, things are off to a good start this season.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

I totally dissagree with you! I believe in the advice that I give. These things do effect animals I'm sure of it.

I can't comment about the us as were hundreds of miles apart but things are not great in the uk! And everytime this happens our animals react to it.

Again I stand by my advice in it's entirety.

For us the key to success is providing a wild level of exposure in terms of heat and visible and uv light in a dedicated and usuable gradient. This means heat and light right through to cool and shade. Then let the animals self regulate.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Arcadiajohn said:


> I totally dissagree with you! I believe in the advice that I give. These things do effect animals I'm sure of it.


Disagree all you like John. I know YOU are sure of what you say but you offer nothing other than what YOU believe.



Arcadiajohn said:


> I can't comment about the us as were hundreds of miles apart but things are not great in the uk! And everytime this happens our animals react to it.


Things are not that different Our climates are similar, especially here in the North Eastern US. Besides that, it is easy to check averages for temps and barometric pressures for your area. If you look, you will see this winter is not far off from other winters. I think your average temp this year was only 0.3 degrees lower. Not exactly harsh.



Arcadiajohn said:


> Again I stand by my advice in it's entirety.


Ofcorse you do.



Arcadiajohn said:


> For us the key to success is providing a wild level of exposure in terms of heat and visible and uv light in a dedicated and usuable gradient. This means heat and light right through to cool and shade. Then let the animals self regulate.


This is where you are dead wrong John. UV exposure is not the key to success. No for the huge majority of species we keep in captivity. We know this because of the countless keepers and breeders who are very successful year in and year out, without the use of UV lighting. I do agree that some species like bearded dragons, iguanas, and uros need it but most do not. And the ones who do need it have been successfully kept and bred for many years without the bells and whistles.

Just curious John. What do you consider a "wild level" of heat?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Again I disagree, I am certain that providing the right level of light to a captive animal as would be experienced in the wild that is index for index over a targeted zone is the key to much greater success. Better breeding, more viable young, longer lifespans and the elimination of MBD from captive animals.

As with light a wild level of heat and light is what would be experienced on average per species per local. If this is supplied over a Good enough gradient the animal can behave as it would in the wild which is the provident that we encourage keepers to supply. It will be able to select the powers that it needs as it needs it without us dictating what we "feel" is best.

These more natural methods must be better for the animals than a life in a box with a lamp and a rock which is what has been sold in historically, I know I did it myself through best part of the 80s and into the 90s. We have to move on now.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I think I may be able to help here. I have experience of Timon lepidus, T. tangitanus and T.pater kept outdoors in large naturalistic vivs. The climate here is the same as would be experienced by wild lepidus (they are native to this part of the world). 

The T5 lights kick out close to natural levels of UVB. So if a lizard in an indoor viv sits under this lamp for 10-12 hours per day it is getting something like natural exposure ? Well in fact, in my opinion no.

Even in moderately sunny conditions outdoors, all surfaces the lepidus might sit on are like the hot spot under the heat bulb (if they are in the sunshine). This means the lizard would over heat if it were to continue to bask all day. In reality even this time of year with air temps around 12-14c they have to seek shelter in the middle of the day to avoid over heating ! In the summer, on a sunny day, the lizards would bask only for a few hours per day, especially early in the morning and later in the afternoon. For the rest of the day, they are in the shade, or partial shade, or underground ! They may come out for brief periods inbetween these main basking points, but not for long. 

In the summer here you can come and see my outdoor cages with many hundreds of lizards in them, and if you come at the 'wrong' time of day, you might only see a handful visible. 

So I believe the lepidus owned by Jools are just acting naturally. I suspect they may take a little time to get used to the strength of the lights, and might act more 'normally' later on. I can't explain the lack of appetite. 

Lastly anybody who has any decent experience of lacertid lizards will know good UV exposure IS extremely important for long term health of the lizards, and also without it they will not show the proper colours like they do in the wild.

I think with these high power type bulbs it is important to provide shade, and hiding places under heat sources that allow them to stay warmed up away from the UV lights. As John said let the lizards self regulate, and they should do very well.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Again I disagree, I am certain that providing the right level of light to a captive animal as would be experienced in the wild that is index for index over a targeted zone is the key to much greater success. Better breeding, more viable young, longer lifespans and the elimination of MBD from captive animals.


But John, you keep bypassing the FACT that we have been doing things successfully for many years without Arcadia lighting and without any UV at all. You just can not admit that UV is indeed OPTIONAL with the large majority of species. 

Speaking for my self here, Everything I have in my collection I breed. I have some females that are in the double digets that still breed and give me viable clutches every seaon. I also get very high hatch rates. In fact most of the time fertile clutchs from my females will yeild a 100% hatch rate. On occasion a couple will not hatch but that is few and far inbetween. This is all done without the use of UV lighting. And I do not remeber the last time I had a case of MBD. I have never had it in any animal I have raised up, thats for sure.



Arcadiajohn said:


> As with light a wild level of heat and light is what would be experienced on average per species per local. If this is supplied over a Good enough gradient the animal can behave as it would in the wild which is the provident that we encourage keepers to supply. It will be able to select the powers that it needs as it needs it without us dictating what we "feel" is best.


Lets be real here John. You encourage keepers to buy your product. That is fine but at the same time you make it out to be something that is a must have in order to keep you reptiles properly and successfully. This is simply not the case John. It has been proven over an over again. Year after year.



Arcadiajohn said:


> These more natural methods must be better for the animals than a life in a box with a lamp and a rock which is what has been sold in historically, I know I did it myself through best part of the 80s and into the 90s. We have to move on now.


Even with all the lighting, heat, and natural substrates, they are still being kept in a box. Far removed from what they actually get in the wild. I agree we should make it as natural as possible. However, the UV option is the least important and the job can get done with supplements and UV lights other than Arcadia for the majority of species. Again, this has been tried and true for many years. You can not argue results. The thing is, I have not seen anything in the way of proof that your lighting will increase life span, incuce better breeding, produce more viable young, or eradicate MBD. Start showing some proof John. I grow tired of readin your opinion or what you feel. You just start to sound like a car salesman after a while.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Gregg do you keep Lacertids?


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

colinm said:


> Gregg do you keep Lacertids?


He doesn't have to keep them to give advice on something as broad as UV.

I don't keep Leopard Geckos but I'm still able to answer leopard gecko questions, does it make my answer less correct than someone that says the same thing? nope.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Dragon Farm said:


> I think I may be able to help here. I have experience of Timon lepidus, T. tangitanus and T.pater kept outdoors in large naturalistic vivs. The climate here is the same as would be experienced by wild lepidus (they are native to this part of the world).
> 
> The T5 lights kick out close to natural levels of UVB. So if a lizard in an indoor viv sits under this lamp for 10-12 hours per day it is getting something like natural exposure ? Well in fact, in my opinion no.
> 
> ...


Thank you for replying. I have always known that these lizards need good UVb and UVa. I understand that they will hide away for a large part of the day and that is normal behaviour. I use ridge tiles under their basking lights so that they can bask on top getting full UV exposure or underneath where it is shady. But I'm wondering if, with the stronger UV, this is shady enough to let them get heat without UV. I will try to construct a shadier area for them here - perhaps this will increase their appetite. 

I normally only feed the adults about 3 times a week and they always eat voraciously. They have been out of hibernation for 6 weeks now and I would expect them to be feeding very well. The sudden drop off when the new lights were introduced is telling me that this is something to do with the lights. As I said earlier - I will try one viv with reduced exposure time and the other viv with reduced %age.

The juvies and yearlings I have, with the old lighting system, are eating very well and are very active so I don't think the adults are headed for another brumation.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Chris18 said:


> He doesn't have to keep them to give advice on something as broad as UV.
> 
> I don't keep Leopard Geckos but I'm still able to answer leopard gecko questions, does it make my answer less correct than someone that says the same thing? nope.


Of course it does because you are not answering from experience.Thats where you are wrong I am afraid.I have been keeping them for nearly forty years now.I keep most of my northern European and near Asian ones outside now because the levels of sunlight and u.v. are better than any bulb( disagreeing with Mark here).But the Arcadia T5s are the nearest to natural sunlight that we have at the present.Over the years I have used Blacklights,Trulights,Exoterras and Zoomed tubes and I have found the Arcadias to be the best to this point.Of course you can go down the route of heavy supplementation and high intensity bulbs but these T5s are way better in my mind,you get more natural behavoiurs and better colours from the lizards.By the way this works for Phelsuma and Brachylophus as well under thesetubes.

To get back to the original question I am with Mark and John here they are acting more like natural Lacertids.they dont bask outside all day in the summer,if temperatures are at their optimium they will bask for intermittant periods only.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

colinm said:


> Of course it does because you are not answering from experience.


No you really don't
So because I've never had experience checking a Leopard Gecko is ovulating it means I can't tell people the method about doing it because I learnt it online?
Some things you can only learn from experience, others you can learn by simply being told about them.
I think what gregg is talking about at the minute is UVB as a whole, not UVB regarding lacertids


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Everyone has their ways, in the end it comes down to us all learning and sharing our knowledge and expirience in a helpful and supportive way.
Husbandry is subjective in so many ways, but their are definate do's and don'ts.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Thats not correct because different species and genera have different requirements otherwise we would keep them in the same way,open your eyes what other manufactuter of light tubes comes on the forums to explain about their products? Try them before dismissing them.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Gregg M said:


> Disagree all you like John. I know YOU are sure of what you say but you offer nothing other than what YOU believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wrong..

This winter in the UK has been the LOWEST barometric readings for the last few years. Not only that, the barometric pressure dipped below 1000 in september this last year already, rather than its normal November time.

We then had a rise in pressures over the last few weeks and its suddendly dipped really low again.

There are huge differences in pressures patterns between UK and the USA and you have the audacity to call someone out when you didn't even bother to check it?

Every one of my beardies went from brumating. Woke up for a month, and 2 of them are now brumating again. My older female brumated solid for 3 months, ate like a pig for a month and has now decided to go back to sleep again. This is not normal behaviour at all.

I can directly relate her behaviour to the barometric pressure as she decided to go back to sleep again as soon as the pressure took a nosedive just over a week ago.



Another point on barometric pressure. Its local pressure you need to know and unless you live within a 100 yards of a barometric pressure station you will not ever get to know what your local pressure is withough having the full science setup. Barometers need to be set up and calobrated to local pressure, and its dependant on your hight from sealevel also. most stations are miles away from most of us and can only ever give you a very rough idea of what is going on.

You wanted facts, there are few for you.


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

nicnet said:


> Wrong..
> 
> This winter in the UK has been the LOWEST barometric readings for the last few years. Not only that, the barometric pressure dipped below 1000 in september this last year already, rather than its normal November time.
> 
> ...


Another interesting fact is that regardless of UV input. Elephants cannot jump! Trufact


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

colinm said:


> Gregg do you keep Lacertids?


I have in the past. Kept and bred Jeweled lacertids (Timon tangitanus) to be exact. Normals and melanistics. Not anymore though. Now the only lacertids I come in contact with are the thousands of Italian wall lizards that have taken over my neighborhood. LOL. I get to watch these guys everyday in the spring and summer. Cool little species.

I am not going to argue that lacertids need UV. But what I can tell you is that it is not normal for them to be hidden all day. In fact they are active, basking, and moving about even during the hottest parts of the day like this little guy. The day I took this photo, it was about 95 degrees out. That basking spot was well over 100 degrees.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

colinm said:


> Thats not correct because different species and genera have different requirements otherwise we would keep them in the same way,open your eyes what other manufactuter of light tubes comes on the forums to explain about their products? Try them before dismissing them.


I'm sure this isn't aimed at me?
*whispers* every single animal I owe was sitting under T5s just 10 minutes ago!

I'm not saying keep them all the same, I'm saying some things come from experience and some things can saftely be regurgitated (things based on facts)?


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Tombo46 said:


> Another interesting fact is that regardless of UV input. Elephants cannot jump! Trufact



Welllllll..........

There is one species of elephant that has been known to 'hop' over streams at times lol....Its a dwarf elephant species that lives in a Southern Africa....but I won't pull straws lmfao.....


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Well Chris you can regurgitate from the internet or Google or whereever.We can all have an opinion about everything but sometimes it is not necessary to voice that opinion.

Gregg one thing that wasn`t posted in the original question was the temperature.The T5s throw out a lot of heat.Whenever I have seen Lacertids in southern Europe or even the U.K. they will hide in the midday sun if the temperature is hot.This is more to do with temperature than U.V.B. im sure. To the o.p. im sure as others have said its more about natural behaviour than anything else. For examplre f I put my Eyed Lizard under a 40watt incadescent it would be out all day but if I put him under a 100watt m.v.b. he would be out intermittently.The temperature and strength of the light will have an effect.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

nicnet said:


> Wrong..
> 
> This winter in the UK has been the LOWEST barometric readings for the last few years. Not only that, the barometric pressure dipped below 1000 in september this last year already, rather than its normal November time.
> 
> ...


Thats all good, but instead of trying to be a dick you might want to look back and see I was talking about temperatures. What I was saying about BP is that the differences between the UK and the North Eastern US are not that great. From 10 years ago to today, the average BP in the UK is 1015. Where I live the average is 1016.

Here is a hint. Try upping your temps. It usually over rides slight barometric changes.


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## Barlow (Sep 23, 2010)

It amazes me still that people go to John for expert advice on their lighting, and always get advised on buying his T5's. He is a salesman at the end of the day. He will never ever advise someone to buy any other product other than his own. And I have had discussions with John where I am able to offer years of proof (results) that contradicts his statements regarding monitors, yet he has not been able to provide one bit of research that he or his company has done to prove it is beneficial to monitors. But he still feels he is right. Hmmm, why is that? I have done a lot of work with monitors, he has done none other than to generalise, yet he feels he has the right to advice keepers to BUY HIS PRODUCTS! There are a lot of gullable keepers on here. To all of those I suggest you experiment with your husbandry, rather than follow a "recipe method" like care sheets and company advice. Grow some frikkin balls!


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Barlow said:


> It amazes me still that people go to John for expert advice on their lighting, and always get advised on buying his T5's. He is a salesman at the end of the day. He will never ever advise someone to buy any other product other than his own. And I have had discussions with John where I am able to offer years of proof (results) that contradicts his statements regarding monitors, yet he has not been able to provide one bit of research that he or his company has done to prove it is beneficial to monitors. But he still feels he is right. Hmmm, why is that? I have done a lot of work with monitors, he has done none other than to generalise, yet he feels he has the right to advice keepers to BUY HIS PRODUCTS! There are a lot of gullable keepers on here. To all of those I suggest you experiment with your husbandry, rather than follow a "recipe method" like care sheets and company advice. Grow some frikkin balls!


Another voice of reason!!!


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

I think the thing to keep in mind is not what most closely replicates the sun. We do not want the sun in a tiny little box and to take just one part of their natural environment without the understanding of how that translates to a small box is not useful. We want the most healthy total enclosure we can recreate and these are not necessarily the same thing as the recreation of different misunderstood _parts_ of their environment in the wild. Remember, UV is a destructive force in high amounts. THAT is the reason most reptiles do not come out during the high UV times of the day. Not because its more natural behaviour that you want to necessarily replicate, but because if they do, it will hurt them. I suppose I could make my boxes more natural by throwing a cat in there every once in awhile, but again, there are certain things I feel better not replicating. 

I think that having the option of the T5s now is great. For the first time we have the ability to project good levels of UVB farther than 12-15 inches, without the added high heat of MVB bulbs. T5s are just catching up to MVBs in my opinion, but sometimes you want the light without the heat. Thats a great tool to have in the arsenal if and when it is useful. However, in my opinion, and it seems in Gregg's also, its not the best bulb for every set up. I have about ten different knives in my kitchen, however I dont use the meat cleaver for buttering bread. 

With UV its important to remember that more is not always needed, or indeed better. Some species have been shown to not need UVB at all, like in leopard geckos and some skinks (Allen, ME, Bush, M., Oftedal, OT., Roscoe, R. Walsh, T., Holick, MF., 1994. Update on Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light in Basking Lizards. Proc Am Assoc Zoo Vet. 314-316). While all evidence points to the fact that even 'sun loving' species require only small amounts of good quality UVB to keep vitamin D metabolite blood serum levels the same as those in the wild (Oonincx, D.G.A.B., Stevens, Y. van den Borne, J.J.G.C, van Leeuwen, JPTM., Hendricks, WH. 2010. "Effects of Vitamin D3 Supplementation and UVB Exposure on the Growth and Plasma Concentration of Vitamin D3 Metabolites in Juvenile Bearded Dragons". Comp BioChem Phys Part B: BioChem Mol Bio. 156:122-128. and also Gillespie, D, Frye, FL. Stockham, SL. Fredeking, T. 2000. "Blood Values in Wild and Captive Komodo Dragons" Zoo Biology. 19:495-509). What these recent studies are showing is that only a couple hours a day, or alternatively just a few months of the year, are all that is needed to keep blood serum levels the same as wild animals, even in the most sun loving reptiles. You do not need to provide super high levels of UVB all day long, every day to have a healthy reptile. 

So in the case of this thread, since the only single change that happened was the higher UV irradiance, it gives a pretty decent example of perhaps a tool that is not right for the job and possibly even a detriment. That is not necessarily because the light itself is bad or is harmful, but rather the parameters its in perhaps isnt the right use for this tool. The animals were healthy and fine before the T5, so if they start hiding all the time and arent eating as much, the obvious answer seems to be to reduce the UV amounts in the enclosure. I think the OP has already gotten to this conclusion anyway, so thats great. :2thumb:


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

colinm said:


> Gregg one thing that wasn`t posted in the original question was the temperature.


Jools did indicate that temperatures did not change.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Barlow said:


> It amazes me still that people go to John for expert advice on their lighting, and always get advised on buying his T5's. He is a salesman at the end of the day. He will never ever advise someone to buy any other product other than his own. And I have had discussions with John where I am able to offer years of proof (results) that contradicts his statements regarding monitors, yet he has not been able to provide one bit of research that he or his company has done to prove it is beneficial to monitors. But he still feels he is right. Hmmm, why is that? I have done a lot of work with monitors, he has done none other than to generalise, yet he feels he has the right to advice keepers to BUY HIS PRODUCTS! There are a lot of gullable keepers on here. To all of those I suggest you experiment with your husbandry, rather than follow a "recipe method" like care sheets and company advice. Grow some frikkin balls!


Barlow, I respect your opinions but to deny UV is beneficial to any reptile is nonesense sorry.
Is it necessary to get from hatchling to adult? Certainly not, for any species if they're supplemented correctly but there's benefits to using it all the same.
It's a moral argument whether to provide it or not.
Ofcourse I agree noone should take John's advise as the sole source but can you really deny he does have some good research behind his company that is voluntary.... They could be like Exo Terra and just stick the products out and not advise anyone on them or research into the benefits of it.
The T5s are the best on the market, why would he recommend anyone elses?
He does sometimes push products on threads, but at the end of the day that's his job and nothing of harm ever comes of it, it's up to the person he's trying to sell them to whether it's good or not.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Chris18 said:


> He does sometimes push products on threads, but at the end of the day that's his job and nothing of harm ever comes of it, it's up to the person he's trying to sell them to whether it's good or not.


He constantly pushes it my brother. LOL. That what gets annoying to me.

Now buy my incubation products because you can not properly hatch eggs without them. LOL

Like I said, and I am sure you and Barlow agree, It is not needed for every species and in some cases, can even be a problem when offered. That is the case that started this thread. And I do not think Barlow was saying that it is not beneficial to ANY reptile.



Chris18 said:


> Ofcourse I agree noone should take John's advise as the sole source but can you really deny he does have some good research behind his company that is voluntary....


 
I see him utilizing information that other people have actually researched. I see nothing in the way of blood testing and bone testing. Nothing to show any health changes in animals swtched over to arcadias products.


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## Barlow (Sep 23, 2010)

Hi Chris. Where did I state that UV isn't beneficial to any reptile? I didn't. I actually use UV for my glauerti but have not seen any benefits. But that is besides the point. His product may be the best at UV output, but that doesn't neccesarily make it the best product. Context is key! I am merely pointing out that there are a lot of people who take Johns advice as the final word, yet he is a sales person. Would you trust a car salesman who was trying to sell you a car, or would you trust a bunch of normal folk who have owned the same model of car for years. Come on Chris, I admire you for being one of the better keepers on here, but don't get sucked in to all that "recipe husbandry" and company crap!!


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Gregg M said:


> He constantly pushes it my brother. LOL. That what gets annoying to me.
> 
> Not buy my incubation products because you can not proper hatch eggs without them. LOL
> 
> Like I said, and I am sure you and Barlow agree, It is not needed for every species and in some cases, can even be a problem when offered. That is the case that started this thread. And I do not think Barlow was saying that it is not beneficial to ANY reptile.


Personally I think this thread has become a mess of people stating opinions but none are even relating or discussing the same thing anymore!

You should push your SIM more, hopefully I'll be using mine for the first time this year 
It looks great sitting empty though :whistling2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

There are some species I won't use UV with, I am content and happy with the way they have been raised, though, when the weather permits I will expose them to breif periods of natural light 

From my own observations and from using other products though I won't look back at anything less than a T5 for some species, but I am always open to learning and looking at things, and hearing new research, and if it is convincing enough with the facts backed up I will change the way I do things.

 for some of my animals I am actually using the arcadia 10% and for my bearded dragons a 10% reptiglo, for no other reason than surrey pet supplies annoyed me and wasted some of my time and wasted my time changing products left right and center while my beardies sat without any UV, ideally I would have them under an MVB.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> There are some species I won't use UV with, I am content and happy with the way they have been raised, though, when the weather permits I will expose them to breif periods of natural light


See, to me this just doesn't make sense....
You can obviously see the benefits if you'll expose them to free uvb but what's stopping you from exposing them for all their lives?
I'm curious, what species won't you use UV for... and why?


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Chris18 said:


> Personally I think this thread has become a mess of people stating opinions but none are even relating or discussing the same thing anymore!


Yeah it did kind of go off topic. Mostley because instead of admitting that his product might not be good for all applications, John said it must be barometric pressure and magnetic fields that made Jools lizards hide away and stop eating at the exact moment the lighting was changed. I almost forgot about "new gear syndrome"... LOL



Chris18 said:


> You should push your SIM more, hopefully I'll be using mine for the first time this year
> It looks great sitting empty though :whistling2:


They are pretty rad looking. LOL. Cant wait to see you hatching something out in them bro.:2thumb:


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Gregg M said:


> Yeah it did kind of go off topic. Mostley because instead of admitting that his product might not be good for all applications, John said it must be barometric pressure and magnetic fields that made Jools lizards hide away and stop eating at the exact moment the lighting was changed. I almost forgot about "new gear syndrome"... LOL
> 
> 
> 
> They are pretty rad looking. LOL. Cant wait to see you hatching something out in them bro.:2thumb:


Well all I can say is that all my lizards are doing fineeeeee!
They definietly slowed down for a day or two but then I upped the wattage of my bulb and all is well again :whistling2:

I think maybe the many reports that John is getting are from newbies who think there temperatures will stay the same and not taking into consideration that thermostats and bulbs dont take into consideration ambient temperatures.. they only cool if it gets too hot.

And hopefully I'll be hatchling a few E. agricolae so nothing special, and certainly not anything warrenting a XL but i got one anyway :lol2:
That's if I can even have success with them anyway -.-


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> See, to me this just doesn't make sense....
> You can obviously see the benefits if you'll expose them to free uvb but what's stopping you from exposing them for all their lives?
> I'm curious, what species won't you use UV for... and why?


Trialing if you want to know.
All my reptiles get a yearly blood test, and so far with the geckos I have had no bad outcomes with the way I do things, and with that, I don't see why I should spend money unessacerily when my current care routine is working nicely  

I have other reasons but I don't want to go into it.
Infact I will, I few years ago I did provide mine with UV, and yes they became a little more active, began eating a little bit more, but just with that, I got the exact same behaviors using a standard fishglo tube which emitted absaloutely nothing but blue light? so I turned their viv to the other side of the room where they would get more light from outside, and the behaviors and health are exactly the same, I have not seen any convincing evidence, blood test or otherwise, to show or prove to me they need it. 

The idea of taking them outside is not just a case of taking them outside for the UV that is just a benefit, but for natural excersize stimulation and enrichment oppurtunity, some fresh air (because fresh air even we need it sometimes) and the benefit of the sun (if their is any I can offer will be given, a few times though mate, I have took them outside. with their caves, and they have hidden and concealed their full bodies (rather than just hiding the head and exposing their body) on other occasions I have seen the opposite hiding the head and the body, so I have a few reasons for not providing it really, I have had no evidence (or facts presented to me) to prove otherwise, what I have seen, is my own husbandry method working quite nicely and for that in itself, I am not willing to change it (having tried a few varying methods) without some actual proof.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Trialing if you want to know.
> All my reptiles get a yearly blood test, and so far with the geckos I have had no bad outcomes with the way I do things, and with that, I don't see why I should spend money unessacerily when my current care routine is working nicely
> 
> I have other reasons but I don't want to go into it.
> ...


That's cool, as long as you have your own reasons then thats fine and I can't change that.

Personally I provide all my reptiles with T5s, yep... even my geckos!
(although over the past few days I've been told I'm apparently putting them in danger by doing so).
My setups are fully planned, none of them look amazing but that's what I have the animals for... Their enclosures allow access to maybe exccessive amounts thermal and light gradients so they chose where they want to go.
For me I feel it's my moral obligation to provide the best I can for the animals because it's my selfish wanting that has them in a small tank to start with.

I am guilty of trying to push UV onto newbies as john is to be honest, mostly because of how easy it is to screw up supplementation when youre new and at the end of the day d3 supplementation is always guess work. UV will provide a cushion for newbies who may not get it quite right so I feel it's important to encourage the next generation to use UVB.

Ofcourse these are just my reasons for using it myself, and encouraging other people too aswell. I'm guilty of being a bit forceful with it but I have a lot of passion that I don't get to let out often so when I do it is a bit over zealous :blush:


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

All I know is that we have close to 30 ackie eggs, a few kingorum eggs and a few Kimberly rock eggs cooking right now as well as having 10 confirmed gravid snakes and this is just the start of the season. All without UV.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

I have been using Reptiglow 10.0 tubes right next to the basking hotspot at one end of my viv for my uros for years. So they only get uv when they go to the basking area. Sometimes they are out sometimes they're not. The thing is the various species of uro are all old and healthy. They breed and colour up well and I don't supplement their food as they don't like it. Now I can't say that Reptiglow are better than Arcadia but if there was a species that could handle the more heat and stronger uv it would be uros, however my uros are healthy and have grown/adapted to the Reptiglow set up I have and it works. 

What this thread has thrown up isn't whether Arcadia's lights are more potent, because while i don't know much about uv but I'm perfectly prepared to believe they are, but how a particular species in a particular captive enclosure might adapt/react to it, and whether this introduction of a new uv lighting system might be beneficial or detrimental. Some species might benefit immediately from the new lights, but other may not. In the end each cage, species, individual specimen and husbandry regime will impact on the dynamic of the vivarium environment. In short, trading my current reliable system for a new more potent one is not a guarantee of healthier more potent animals and I'm not sure I could be arsed to try and fix something that's not really broken.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> That's cool, as long as you have your own reasons then thats fine and I can't change that.
> 
> Personally I provide all my reptiles with T5s, yep... even my geckos!
> (although over the past few days I've been told I'm apparently putting them in danger by doing so).
> ...


Everything I do I do for a reason mate, I won't just do it because everyone else is, infact, my care routines vary greatly from most common thought with everything I keep, including my snakes feeding routines  

As long as everyone has a justification for what they do that is great, if keepers never took any risks, we would all still be sat in the 70s and much of what we know now would be none existent.

For some species (sunlovers) iggys/waterdragons) I would highly reccomend the t5s, I have seen some amazing results compared to other brands, just look at my female! shes gorgeous! she should by now be showing some adult markings and colouring, she is hanging right onto those brigh baby greens, only recently have I started seeing a stripe start to show through  I have seen some younger kept under 5% darker than her


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I like the fact that Arcadia John is here. He works for Arcadia, and guess what he promotes Arcadia products. But you would have to be a bit stupid not to realise that. It would be so easy for Arcadia to make up 20 false accounts, all of them coming on this forum promoting T5's as being the next best thing, but instead they are openly promoting their products and giving advice where they can. I like the honesty.

To me it is simple. If you want to do the best for your animals, then you should provide them with light like the light their eyes are designed to see. We have no idea what it would be like to see ultraviolet, but we can be pretty sure without it, many species will not have normal eyesight. 

Even if D3 can be provided from a powder rather than a light source, only the UV light will provide them with full vision. 

It might be possible to breed lizards without UV light. But I do not think it is a coincidence that back in the 1970/80's we were so reliant apon wild caught lizards for our new stock, while now we have a huge range of CB lizards, and that we have gone from 'blacklights' being the state of the art to T5's.


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

My adult bearded dragons are loving the t5's they bask under them all day long. 
They are more lively and eating more and look healthier and they stronger than they were under the t8's. 

Before I came on the forum a few years ago I was using exo terra 10.0 t8's and they were bad, even with constant d3 supplement the bones were not as strong also the flickering was effecting there eyes. 

My bearded dragons are happy Arcadia John is here pushing the good products on to me : victory:


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

I also appreciate the fact that John is on here - in fact I asked him if he would comment on this thread. He has spent much time helping peeps on the forum. We all know he is affiliated with Arcadia and he has done a lot of valuable work in developing new products. Of course he will recommend Arcadia products because he feels (as do most peeps) that they are the best available. But I'm a big girl and I will look at all options and can make up my own mind. Yes, I also like the honesty.

I also respect and appreciate the wealth of knowledge that Gregg, Dragon Farm and the others on here have and have taken much on board. I also feel that after 30 years of keeping reps I am fairly well placed to make a judgement as to what is suiting them best.

I would like to thank everyone who has responded and tried to help. I have my plan of action now and will let you all know in a week or two how it goes.

Julie.


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## Lukosis (Feb 26, 2013)

Arcadia D3+ T5 Reptile UV Lamp - Evolution Reptiles

This says there is no need to change my starter from my usual one. Is that correct? I thought they needed specific starters?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Lukosis said:


> Arcadia D3+ T5 Reptile UV Lamp - Evolution Reptiles
> 
> This says there is no need to change my starter from my usual one. Is that correct? I thought they needed specific starters?


They need T5 starters not T8 ones.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Ive not read the full thread but notice it sidetracked somewhat.
Jools, I hope your little critters perk up soon. Ive noticed with a few of our various species that if you make any significant changes to furnishings, lighting, heating or spraying regimes it puts them off their food and often has them hiding away for a while. I guess its the stress of change.
I think its a little disappointing that John is getting flak again. Yes he recommends Arcadia products but he gives a ratiionalle for doing so. I have yet to see him recommend a product simply to put a few quid into the companies bank. I genuinely believe he truly cares about the animals he provides input for. I genuinely believe his motives for helping people are because he cares and we benefit from his knowledge and experience.
If were going to have a gripe at the sales pitch of big companies lets pick the right target.
Lets have s pop at the companies that dont come on here, or to any other public arena,offering help, sharing their knowledge and experience. Lets have a pop at the companies that take our money for equipment but offer no up to date research to show its fit for purpose. John is doing what the other companies should be doing but arent. 
I would love to see an open discussion between reptile lighting companies reps. Then we would have greater chance for informed decision. Only one has the courage of conviction in his products and thats ArcadiaJohn. The others to me have one interest....taking our money.


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

there are however many nocturnal species that have no need or derive any benefit from arcadias new expensive tubes, though from johns posts this is not the impression he gives, far from it, you almost get the feeling that if u dont use his new tubes u are somehow doing a dis-service to ur animals, nocturnal species have evolved to shun the sun yet iv seen posts of his recommending them for leos, and if their morph leos with red eyes for example to shade the tubes behind plastic plants, seriously? i understand trying to expand ur market but quoting global uv indexes means little, it says nothing about what species actually choose to use that uv, but again this is not mentioned and many people are being sold equipment they have no need of under whats almost false pretenses, buy this, ur animal needs it to be happy, which in many cases is not true, he is also making a big push to get snake keepers to invest in them, and there is even less of a need for them there, quoting uv indexes and what snakes can or cant see in various spectrums is nothing but a market expanding ploy taken too far.

rgds
ed



Dragon Farm said:


> I like the fact that Arcadia John is here. He works for Arcadia, and guess what he promotes Arcadia products. But you would have to be a bit stupid not to realise that. It would be so easy for Arcadia to make up 20 false accounts, all of them coming on this forum promoting T5's as being the next best thing, but instead they are openly promoting their products and giving advice where they can. I like the honesty.
> 
> To me it is simple. If you want to do the best for your animals, then you should provide them with light like the light their eyes are designed to see. We have no idea what it would be like to see ultraviolet, but we can be pretty sure without it, many species will not have normal eyesight.
> 
> ...


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

loxocemus said:


> there are however many nocturnal species that have no need or derive any benefit from arcadias new expensive tubes, though from johns posts this is not the impression he gives, far from it, you almost get the feeling that if u dont use his new tubes u are somehow doing a dis-service to ur animals, nocturnal species have evolved to shun the sun yet iv seen posts of his recommending them for leos, and if their morph leos with red eyes for example to shade the tubes behind plastic plants, seriously? i understand trying to expand ur market but quoting global uv indexes means little, it says nothing about what species actually choose to use that uv, but again this is not mentioned and many people are being sold equipment they have no need of under whats almost false pretenses, buy this, ur animal needs it to be happy, which in many cases is not true, he is also making a big push to get snake keepers to invest in them, and there is even less of a need for them there, quoting uv indexes and what snakes can or cant see in various spectrums is nothing but a market expanding ploy taken too far.
> 
> rgds
> ed


You're completely wrong I'm afraid.
'Nocturnal' geckos are rare, only stuff like goniurosaurus are really nocturnal, most other species are crepuscular and 99% of reptiles benefit from UV.


IMO you are doing your animal a disservice by not providing UVB, they have it in the wild and its only a human choice to take it away from them, why should we have the right to take what's natural to them for our own benefits?
That's my moral stand point and I'm surprised more people don't share it as a lot of people pretend they want the BEST for their animals.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

There is a lot of cynicism here.Far from answering the original question people seem to be having a go at John.From what I can see there are only three or four people who keep the species in question,the rest are applying it to other species .

I am glad John is here to answer questions,obviously he cannot answer questions about other manufacturers products.i would like to see Zoomed,Exoterra and Komodo on here for example .He will obviously tell the poster which product of Arcadia to use,he cannot endorse other products.

To put it simply the T5 lights are very bright,brighter than the T8s.The Eyed Lizards will hide at first.Its much the same as when I go to Greece or Spain I wear sunglasses whereas I dont in the U.K.


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## Lukosis (Feb 26, 2013)

In fairness I've read a fair bit of (independent) advice suggesting Leos benefit from having access to UV...


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> You're completely wrong I'm afraid.
> 'Nocturnal' geckos are rare, only stuff like goniurosaurus are really nocturnal, most other species are crepuscular and 99% of reptiles benefit from UV.
> 
> 
> ...


We keep two species of Gonni. They do demonstrate crepuscular activity. I have also seen them mid afternoon deliberately exposing their tails, presumabely to absorb some rays. When the geckos have a spacious hide and you see three tails sticking out of the entrance you can safely assume its deliberate. One of our female cat geckos has the odd snooze perched directly under the compact uv bulb, pressed against the mesh. Again deliberate behaviour. She has loads of places to hide away. Cat geckos are one of the most secretive and strictly (almost) nocturnal species there is.
I dont use UV for many of our geckos, mainly the leos but I ensure they get well gutloaded food and excellent supplementation. I wont deny though, that if they had access to UV yhey would utilise it. When, if, technology develops so that we can use UV in rack systems then I will use it for the leos too.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Chris18 said:


> You're completely wrong I'm afraid.
> 'Nocturnal' geckos are rare, only stuff like goniurosaurus are really nocturnal, most other species are crepuscular and 99% of reptiles benefit from UV.
> 
> 
> ...


Chris, I do not fully agree with your stance on doing a disservice to your animals by not providing UV. However, I respect what you are say as it is your own personal, moral stamce and you stated it as such.

To me, John is like a used car salesman. I have also read some of his literature and to be quite honest, his actual knowledge of reptiles is very limited. He is a light guy, not a reptile expert. Why would you go to a car mechanic if you oven is broken?


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Mal said:


> We keep two species of Gonni. They do demonstrate crepuscular activity. I have also seen them mid afternoon deliberately exposing their tails, presumabely to absorb some rays. When the geckos have a spacious hide and you see three tails sticking out of the entrance you can safely assume its deliberate. One of our female cat geckos has the odd snooze perched directly under the compact uv bulb, pressed against the mesh. Again deliberate behaviour. She has loads of places to hide away. Cat geckos are one of the most secretive and strictly (almost) nocturnal species there is.
> I dont use UV for many of our geckos, mainly the leos but I ensure they get well gutloaded food and excellent supplementation. I wont deny though, that if they had access to UV yhey would utilise it. When, if, technology develops so that we can use UV in rack systems then I will use it for the leos too.


Mal, I'm not talking about animals that expose to uv as nocturnal... I probably should of pointed out to him that nocturnal doesn't mean they don't expose themselves to uv or heat gradients, it's a description of when they have high activity levels 
From what I've heard you won't catch goniurosaurus out until lights are all out which is why I said they're nocturnal? I've seen all my geckos hunt in medium light so they're crepuscular, have you seen your gonis do this at all?
The time of day the animal is active is irreverent to the UV argument is what I'm trying to say here, it's the enviroment they come from. As far as I'm concerned unless your animal lives in caves, underground or at the bottom of the ocean then it probably utilizes UV


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Gregg M said:


> Chris, I do not fully agree with your stance on doing a disservice to your animals by not providing UV. However, I respect what you are say as it is your own personal, moral stamce and you stated it as such.
> 
> To me, John is like a used car salesman. I have also read some of his literature and to be quite honest, his actual knowledge of reptiles is very limited. He is a light guy, not a reptile expert. Why would you go to a car mechanic if you oven is broken?


That's fine Gregg, I only say as much because I feel d3 supplementation is guess work, you could be getting it in right amounts for it to support bone growth and all the other systems it supports but how do we know that the animal has the maximum needed amount to support the maximum health benefits? Unless we allow them to self regulate then we cannot know theyre allowed to grow to their full potential. 
It's the exact same with thermal gradients for cresteds, they'll grow and breed without them but they will grow faster and stronger when provided with them.

Morals are personal though, there's a fine line between morals and ethics in this discussion but I believe a line is still there.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks, you really know how to appreciate someones efforts!

For your info I am a reptile person nad have kept and traded them from the 1980s. I came into lighting as part of my research about 7 years ago. NO one knows it all but I am lucky enough to spend my working life working with the most respected people in the reptile world in research into reptiles and the sun. 

So please dont start attacking people verbaly when you know little about me or my history and what I stand for! 

Im not bonused on these things, I dont own the company, im not drumming up sales it means nothing to me like that. Im here in my own time helping people get the best out of our products. it is as simple as that.




Gregg M said:


> Chris, I do not fully agree with your stance on doing a disservice to your animals by not providing UV. However, I respect what you are say as it is your own personal, moral stamce and you stated it as such.
> 
> To me, John is like a used car salesman. I have also read some of his literature and to be quite honest, his actual knowledge of reptiles is very limited. He is a light guy, not a reptile expert. Why would you go to a car mechanic if you oven is broken?


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

My G.luii male is out as we speak, munching a whopping great roach. Far bigger than any Ive put in the tank...it must have been hiding for a while. My gecko room is very quiet and as such the geckos feel more secure. Often when people dont see Gonnis until its pitch black, the tank is in an area that has quite a bit of activity going on. They are secretive, often nervy geckos. However if they feel secure they do make the odd trip out into ' the light'.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

colinm said:


> There is a lot of cynicism here.Far from answering the original question people seem to be having a go at John.From what I can see there are only three or four people who keep the species in question,the rest are applying it to other species .
> 
> I am glad John is here to answer questions,obviously he cannot answer questions about other manufacturers products.i would like to see Zoomed,Exoterra and Komodo on here for example .He will obviously tell the poster which product of Arcadia to use,he cannot endorse other products.
> 
> To put it simply the T5 lights are very bright,brighter than the T8s.The Eyed Lizards will hide at first.Its much the same as when I go to Greece or Spain I wear sunglasses whereas I dont in the U.K.


This ^^ Thank you colinm


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

jools said:


> This ^^ Thank you colinm


 
If someone posts a thread about a product you are related too or worked towards then you are going to answer the questions or problems they may have with it, which is what I feel john does at times and on some UV threads he does try and help too, I feel most people would do the same if it was a product to do with yourself, would want to help or give advice about your product the best you can. 

I agree some species need UV and some people keep monitors and other species without UV in great conditions.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Its a shame that people who have such expertise in the various specialist areas dont frequent this forum very much. Its easy to see why. Allen Repashy came on here sometime back to answer queries about his product only to get insult from a couple of members. John is getting similar attacks. People of this calibre, with specialist knowledge and experience should be welcomed on here. Its fine to disagree with them, to challenge them but it doesnt require personal attack and insult. Im sure representatives from other companies read the various threads on here. Im sure they have seen enough to make them think why bother.


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

Mal said:


> Its a shame that people who have such expertise in the various specialist areas dont frequent this forum very much. Its easy to see why. Allen Repashy came on here sometime back to answer queries about his product only to get insult from a couple of members. John is getting similar attacks. People of this calibre, with specialist knowledge and experience should be welcomed on here. Its fine to disagree with them, to challenge them but it doesnt require personal attack and insult. Im sure representatives from other companies read the various threads on here. Im sure they have seen enough to make them think why bother.


Everyone has different opinions and is passionate about their point of view and facts that others may disagree with. Agreed with your comments though, should just let it be and agree to disagree.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Mal said:


> Its a shame that people who have such expertise in the various specialist areas dont frequent this forum very much. Its easy to see why. Allen Repashy came on here sometime back to answer queries about his product only to get insult from a couple of members. John is getting similar attacks. People of this calibre, with specialist knowledge and experience should be welcomed on here. Its fine to disagree with them, to challenge them but it doesnt require personal attack and insult. Im sure representatives from other companies read the various threads on here. Im sure they have seen enough to make them think why bother.


Mal, I think it was my thread that Allen came onto and I can tell you now, he had no respect for me or my opinion, thought he was right just because he had success in having animals survive off his products and looked down on me because of his 'many years of experience'. John has never shown that level of disrespect to anyone even with the amount of knowledge he has... it doesn't even matter if he's potentionally wrong sometimes because atleast he's wrong and has respect for people instead of looking down on them.
There's a lot of drama on this forum, mainly because people spread stuff without the knowledge, because people have strong views and sometimes people get god complexes. Other people also outgrow the forum as it can be very basic at the best of times.
I've been close to quitting the forum myself to be honest, mainly because it's frustrating when people will not listen to your opinion and resort to under handed name calling.

It's a shame some people stop posting but there always seems to be someone with the correct level of knowledge to help out so we can survive, for now!

wow, this thread truely has become a mish mash of opinions and topics :lol2:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

No, I dont think it was your thread. It was sometime back where he was basically told he wasa money grabbing s..t who didnt care a dam.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> wow, this thread truely has become a mish mash of opinions and topics :lol2:


You can say that again Chris!

I was truely sorry that it has (or at least had) become a major quarrel and that John in particular got a bashing, and that it had become a "debate" about UV for reps in general. 

That was not my intention when I started the thread. I was merely disappointed at my lizards reaction to the new lighting and wanted some opinions as to why, and opinions on how to rectify this.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Mal said:


> No, I dont think it was your thread. It was sometime back where he was basically told he wasa money grabbing s..t who didnt care a dam.


Oh, that definietly wasn't me then....

It always surprises me that people can disrespect people who spend their LIVES (not just some small amount of time) to give us better products for our reptiles...
They're only human so them being wrong is to be expected from time to time...

People are sometimes infuriating, then people wonder why a lot of people have social anxiety :whistling2:


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

jools said:


> You can say that again Chris!
> 
> I was truely sorry that it has (or at least had) become a major quarrel and that John in particular got a bashing, and that it had become a "debate" about UV for reps in general.
> 
> That was not my intention when I started the thread. I was merely disappointed at my lizards reaction to the new lighting and wanted some opinions as to why, and opinions on how to rectify this.


Exactly if people wanted to have a debate could have done it off this thread although is good to read peoples opinions and experiences. Has turned into a bit of bashing when someone was simply trying to answer your questions about their product, like anyone would about a product they have made if something was posted about it.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

All I am saying is that John specializes in lighting and paints a huge broad stroke over reptiles individual needs. Thats why I say his knowledge is limited. If that is not the case, it means he is just trying to sell a product to anyone with any species. Also saying that reps will not be healthy unless we use his product is a bit rediculous. Especially since things are being done successfully without it. They have been for many years. Some of his claims are just rediculous.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

jools said:


> You can say that again Chris!
> 
> I was truely sorry that it has (or at least had) become a major quarrel and that John in particular got a bashing, and that it had become a "debate" about UV for reps in general.
> 
> That was not my intention when I started the thread. I was merely disappointed at my lizards reaction to the new lighting and wanted some opinions as to why, and opinions on how to rectify this.


It's your thread so you're entitled to think it's a shame that it's turned into a UV discussion, it happens often though and I think it's good for the hobby, just a shame you have to suffer a little because of it.

Hopefully you got your answer in the midst of the mess though and i apologise for one of the main contributors of the UV debate :blush:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

You're ALL wrong and need to be me.






























:whistling2:


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Gregg M said:


> All I am saying is that John specializes in lighting and paints a huge broad stroke over reptiles individual needs. Thats why I say his knowledge is limited. If that is not the case, it means he is just trying to sell a product to anyone with any species. Also saying that reps will not be healthy unless we use his product is a bit rediculous. Especially since things are being done successfully without it. They have been for many years. Some of his claims are just rediculous.


Thats your opinion and thats fine, but personally for me I felt annoyed when reading this thread when you started resorting to name calling, and just being outright rude and insulting towards John. There just isnt any need for that sort of abuse when he's here to help us and improve the husbandry that we provide for our reptiles.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Im sorry that many of you seem to think that this thread is a bad one. I think it was a pretty decent discussion. I think the worst thing anyone was referred to as was a salesman, which isnt really that dramatic. Disagreeing with someone is not disrespectful, and even experts must be held up to scrutiny, maybe especially experts. Simple disagreement and offering differing opinions is never a bad thing, we should all question common opinion from time to time. Again, I dont think anyone is saying that T5s are not a great product, merely that using the same tool for every job is not a good thing. 

I had a similar experience with my bearded dragons. I switched to MVB bulbs awhile back, and immediately saw them stop basking. It was not due to any other parameter change (no it was not due to increased heat as I made sure the bulb did not increase the heat) other than an increase in UV radiation. I moved the MVBs back about 6-8 inches and the basking and behaviour returned to normal. Sometimes its just that simple, and I think the same is true for the OP and his problem. Trying to say they will get used to it, or it was some other unknown variable is complicating an otherwise simple solution. Sometimes more is not better.


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

jarich said:


> Im sorry that many of you seem to think that this thread is a bad one. I think it was a pretty decent discussion. I think the worst thing anyone was referred to as was a salesman, which isnt really that dramatic. Disagreeing with someone is not disrespectful, and even experts must be held up to scrutiny, maybe especially experts. Simple disagreement and offering differing opinions is never a bad thing, we should all question common opinion from time to time. Again, I dont think anyone is saying that T5s are not a great product, merely that using the same tool for every job is not a good thing.
> 
> I had a similar experience with my bearded dragons. I switched to MVB bulbs awhile back, and immediately saw them stop basking. It was not due to any other parameter change (no it was not due to increased heat as I made sure the bulb did not increase the heat) other than an increase in UV radiation. I moved the MVBs back about 6-8 inches and the basking and behaviour returned to normal. Sometimes its just that simple, and I think the same is true for the OP and his problem. Trying to say they will get used to it, or it was some other unknown variable is complicating an otherwise simple solution. Sometimes more is not better.


Just seems that it is a thread about his product and seems to give people a chance to flame it overall, seems to happen with popular products on this forum at the end of the day. It is good to have a discussion about things like this though but do think it went majorly of topic for no real reason and happens a lot when it isn't needed. Like this UV and salesman malarky seems to be a regular thing, only needs to be said once I think then should be left.

If you had a product and someone wanted answers about or related to it, of course you will reply to it and try and help. 

I do enjoy seeing opinions of plenty of people who keep different species of reps wether it be about lighting, substrates etc just think is a time and a place for it


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

jarich said:


> Im sorry that many of you seem to think that this thread is a bad one. I think it was a pretty decent discussion. I think the worst thing anyone was referred to as was a salesman, which isnt really that dramatic. Disagreeing with someone is not disrespectful, and even experts must be held up to scrutiny, maybe especially experts. Simple disagreement and offering differing opinions is never a bad thing, we should all question common opinion from time to time. Again, I dont think anyone is saying that T5s are not a great product, merely that using the same tool for every job is not a good thing.
> 
> I had a similar experience with my bearded dragons. I switched to MVB bulbs awhile back, and immediately saw them stop basking. It was not due to any other parameter change (no it was not due to increased heat as I made sure the bulb did not increase the heat) other than an increase in UV radiation. I moved the MVBs back about 6-8 inches and the basking and behaviour returned to normal. Sometimes its just that simple, and I think the same is true for the OP and his problem. Trying to say they will get used to it, or it was some other unknown variable is complicating an otherwise simple solution. Sometimes more is not better.


Gregg wrote things like 'I am tired of reading your opinion or what you feel'. I'm not sure how that equates to a decent discussion... Yes I agree that in asking the right questions its how some problems can be solved, but surely you must agree that insults such as this one are not going to solve any issues regarding the output of UV...


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Yes and in context he went on to say he wanted to see evidence rather than what was opinion and feeling, which is a reasonable request. There is obviously some history of this discussion between Gregg and John, so Im sure that will be evident in the discussion. I still dont see how that was an insult. Perhaps the language could have been nicer, but the point was still valid.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Shall we just end this thread with some pictures of my favourite gecko species enjoying a great product...



















awww look, isn't it so happy and peaceful!


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Chris18 said:


> Shall we just end this thread with some pictures of my favourite gecko species enjoying a great product...
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Not like this thread at all :lol2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> Not like this thread at all :lol2:


I have been nice :flrt:


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I have been nice :flrt:


But you are always nice :flrt:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bexzini said:


> But you are always nice :flrt:


 :flrt:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> Shall we just end this thread with some pictures of my favourite gecko species enjoying a great product...
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Thats taking the pee, your using a lucky reptile bulb, in a fitting from Wilkos , (never mind the Komodo sticker you put inside the dome) over an exo terra tank, with a bundle of twigs you purchased from pro rep. I cant even see any critters...maybe its my darn phone. Cant see anything with Arcadia on it......splitter !!!!! Very nice twiggeries though, might have toget myself some of them but Im sure theres another firm does them better. Does John do twigs ?


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

Mal said:


> I cant even see any critters...maybe its my darn phone.


Mal hun do you want to borrow my glasses? Cos even I can see the critter and my eye's are shot to rats :lol2:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

SleepyD said:


> Mal hun do you want to borrow my glasses? Cos even I can see the critter and my eye's are shot to rats :lol2:


Im a little concerned to be honest, I cant see any critters and neither could my lad. I suspect it might be that Im just looking at a small phone image and when I look on the comp later the things will jump out at me. For now all I will say is that it looks like Chris cares for his twigs very very well but Im not sure hes giving them the right UV exposure.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Mal said:


> Im a little concerned to be honest, I cant see any critters and neither could my lad. I suspect it might be that Im just looking at a small phone image and when I look on the comp later the things will jump out at me. For now all I will say is that it looks like Chris cares for his twigs very very well but Im not sure hes giving them the right UV exposure.


I'm on my phone Mal and I saw the 'cough' stroph.....

Your powers are waning, Jedi master.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Big Red One said:


> I'm on my phone Mal and I saw the 'cough' stroph.....
> 
> Your powers are waning, Jedi master.


Waning......theyve got up and gone !!!! Im powerless. I really cant see any critters in those pics. Got to crack on with feeding the gang....but as soon as I can I will fire up the comp. If I still cant see them Im going back to Specsavers for a refund. You dont think staring into the rays of my T5 all day will have buggered my eyes up. I read on a forum that it would give me a nice tan before my hols. Didnt say anything about messing my eyes up though.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

LOL I couldn't tell if you were serious at first Mal! I took two and cropped one just incase somebody couldn't see it haha!

How about now









?


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> LOL I couldn't tell if you were serious at first Mal! I took two and cropped one just incase somebody couldn't see it haha!
> 
> How about now
> image
> ...


I can just about make something out on that. Will have a proper look on thr comp. The crop is still tiny on this phone.


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Chris18 said:


> LOL I couldn't tell if you were serious at first Mal! I took two and cropped one just incase somebody couldn't see it haha!
> 
> How about now
> image
> ...


This is almost definitely worse :lol2:


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Mal said:


> I can just about make something out on that. Will have a proper look on thr comp. The crop is still tiny on this phone.


I realised that when I posted it :blush:
He's got pretty good camouflage for a lizard with a bright orange tail :mf_dribble:


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Back to T5 lights and Timon lepidus......

I did some tests today that I hope are of interest to Jools and the rest of you. I have a UVB meter. 

Firstly I tested the Arcadia T5 slimline luminaire (with the D3 plus bulbs). I bought five of these in December 2012 and they have been running for about 12 hours a day since. These are lovely bits of kit by the way, and I would fully recommend them. I measured the UVB at 18cm away from the bulb. The maximum output was not actually directly below the unit but a short distance away. Its something to do with how the reflectors work I think. Anyway the reading at 18cm was 90 microwatts per sq cm. This is amazing !! Anybody who has experience of UV lighting from the last century knows how things have massively improved since then, and how lucky modern reptile keepers are. 

But to put things in perspective I tried pointing the meter directly at the Sun after the clouds cleared (13.30 hrs). I got a max reading of 293 microwatts per square cm. The air was very clear today, and I think this reading is exceptional for the time of year. The air temp was only around 14c. We live in the middle of Portugal. 

So if I were Jools I would not be worrying about the notion that the lights could be too strong. I would personally stop using any D3 supplements though, if you haven't already. Good luck Jools and please let us know how things progress.

Lastly a public thanks to John from Arcadia for his help in the past, and for helping us all with our techie queries.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Thank you Dragon Farm - that is extremely helpful


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Dragon Farm said:


> But to put things in perspective I tried pointing the meter directly at the Sun after the clouds cleared (13.30 hrs). I got a max reading of 293 microwatts per square cm. The air was very clear today, and I think this reading is exceptional for the time of year. The air temp was only around 14c. We live in the middle of Portugal.


Thats cool and all but what are your readings at ground level where a lizard would actually bask. 



Dragon Farm said:


> So if I were Jools I would not be worrying about the notion that the lights could be too strong. I would personally stop using any D3 supplements though, if you haven't already. Good luck Jools and please let us know how things progress.


To be honest, I would not rule out too much UV being the problem here. It does make a lot more sense than barometric pressure, magnetic fields, some made up syndrome, or any other issues brought up by John to deflect from what might actually be the problem. I have said this numerous times. I am not bashing the product. It has it uses and benefits for certain species. It is not the key to being successful with reptiles as John wants people to believe.

I am not the one to sugar coat things and when I see BS, I call it. Is that rude? Not at all. Its called keeping thing honest. I realize certain people might be overly sensitive, but I am not trying to please people.

As stated, I do not think John is a bad person. The literature I have read from him is just not up to par and is very biased. It is also way to general. Just like his many posts here on this site. It is not an insult. It is calling it how it really is. He makes claims like his lighting will increase breeding, fertility, and hatch rate but offers nothing in the way of proof or statistics or tests that were conducted. He says it make animals healthier but again, offers no proof of it being true. No blood tests, no bone tests, nothing.

There is a ton of proof that UV is NOT needed to be very successful in the keeping or breeding of the majority of species in captivity.

I have to say that most of our varanids have UV lighting. The funny thing is, the only ones we have gotten viable eggs from so far this season are the ones that do not have UV lighting in the cages. None of our snakes have ever seen UV unless I have taken them outside for a photo shoot and they all breed fine, year after year and give large viable clutches with very high % hatch rates. Go figure.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Do you actually believe the Outdoor UVB reading would be lower if taken at ground level ? I will take some more readings later today (its around 2am here now). 

So far on this thread Gregg you have called somebody a dick, compared somebody else to be like a used car salesman, and suggested others are talking bullshit. Why do I get the impression you are deliberately trying to be offensive ?

I have the Arcadia T5 system (D3 plus type) which has the higher UVB output of the two types, and with fitted reflectors behind the tubes to increase output. Yet still the UVB output from the T5 is considerably lower than it would be outdoors in March ! So why do you believe the T5 could be too strong for the lepidus in question ? 

I am genuinely interested in your breeding results, and alternative thinking on breeding lizards without UV. I would be the first to say that we all have a lot to learn, and that we can all easily get stuck into believing certain dogmatic beliefs on how things 'should be done'. 

But I prefer to keep things more natural, and let the lizards bodies work in the same way the are designed to work in nature. Naturally they are designed to use UV to turn the precursors of vitamin D3 into the amount of D3 they need. I would rather do that than force them to consume the amount of D3 I think they might need.

I also prefer the idea of providing them with the sort of lighting that enables them to have normal vision. I think not providing diurnal lizards with decent UV is like us being forced to wear funny coloured glasses that filter out certain colours. I could survive wearing rose tinted glasses, but it wouldn't give me the quality of life and full vision I would like.

If you are so sure about the fact that your lizards do not need UV why do you go to the expense of providing it for most of your varanus ?


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Gregg M said:


> Thats cool and all but what are your readings at ground level where a lizard would actually bask.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe your idea of being insulting to others in the USA is different to ours in the UK, but personally I Can't see how making personal attacks on someone who is always willing to offer his advice as not being rude.

You're more than welcome to your opinions, as is everyone else. I don't see others however making personal attacks on you for them.

Insults and attacks no matter how you like to put them are exactly that.

As my mother always used to say to me. If you haven't the brains to offer your opinion without having to resorting to attacking someone personally, then keep your mouth shut and don't make yourself look like an idiot instead......Always proved invaluable advice to me.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

To reiterate what Mark has said I have done readings with a Solarmeter in the U.K. when I first bought it.Even in the U.K. in March the u.v.b. readings are far higher than any make of u.v.b. tube available on the market.Therefore one can reasonably deduce that they will be even higher in southern Europe in mid summer.

To anyone who doesnt believe this buy a Solarmeter and test it for yourself.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> Shall we just end this thread with some pictures of my favourite gecko species enjoying a great product...
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Well thats a relief.......I can just make him out. He does look a happy chap sat in his log pile. Its not the clearest of photos youve posted Chris. Hes superb at camouflage though.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

Completely seperate from reptiles, but I wouldnt have believed in barometric pressure etc, until i switched from coarse fishing to carp fishing. These fish are so in tune with the environment its unreal, almost to the point where with different pressures, wind directions, sunny day, cloudy day, we change our fishing style to catch. Again this is away from reptiles but is still part of the animal kingdom. Look at ourselves and the way us humans behave with different atmospheric conditions?.

personally I dont think its made up, i clearly think theres so much more to it, that we as scientists, herpetologists, keepers etc havent even touched on yet.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

The debate on wether or not some reptiles need exposure to sunlight or not has always interested me..But I believe there is only really one answer.

Iv read a few articles on various websites with different views on it all. But most agree, even if a Gecko spends 90%-100% of it's time out of direct sunlight, doesn't mean they are not getting UVB exposure.

The most recent article suggested UVB does indeed pierce the ground, and enter the burrows etc...Maybe not light that humans would visibly see, but small amount of UVB are present. (Maybe the equivalent of a 2% tube?)

Iv always personally believed ALL animals in some way rely on the sun exposure in some way...Even if it's because the animals they prey on have been exposed to the sun, and they take nutrients from them. (The same principal with Calci-dusting live feeder's food)

So why take the risk....?

Even if you have found evidence/theories on certain reptiles not needing sun exposure, why take the risk right?

Metabolic Bone Disease probably doesn't pick and chose what it effects.

My girlfriend has recently bought her first lizard, a Crested Gecko, and she provides a 2%-4% (Can't remember exactly) even though it rarely comes out during the day...But it's there to provide good'ness like the sun would be in wild.

And that's the main point...The sun isn't optional in the wild. So don't make it optional in captivity.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

Ieuan7 said:


> The debate on wether or not some reptiles need exposure to sunlight or not has always interested me..But I believe there is only really one answer.
> 
> Iv read a few articles on various websites with different views on it all. But most agree, even if a Gecko spends 90%-100% of it's time out of direct sunlight, doesn't mean they are not getting UVB exposure.
> 
> ...


and i suppose on that we should really remember without the sun, the earth dies


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Luke said:


> and i suppose on that we should really remember without the sun, the earth dies


Yeah very true mate.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Possibilities...................


That's what all these points are, but do you know what - NONE of us know why these lizards are acting up.

Personally I side with nobody here, I can see some of Greggs points, he's a belligerent git at times - but he means well ! (All cool Gregg, I mean that in the nicest possible way mate.... :Na_Na_Na_Na.

I also see the side of the other guys, but let's agree on one thing hey, there ARE different ways of doing things and they CAN be successful in their own ways.

Assuming we have slightly different measures of success of course..........

I started a thread recently asking how we could tell whether our animals 'survived' or 'thrived', I still don't think there's a definitive answer to that question. : victory:


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## retinal (Jun 24, 2012)

Firstly, sorry jools another totally unrelated post to your thread... gl with your critters.. hope they are doing well.

I'm a complete newbie to this forum.. I have only posted a handful of times over the last few months.

I got my first bd in August and she's doing really well... I took a lot of info from this forum and it helped a lot (thanks everyone)... I have also read a lot of threads where John has responded... I do my own research but his advice has helped me a lot. I don't remember seeing any of the folks who are here criticizing him offering their advice.

I understand people think he's biased but I think his advice is helping a lot of folks... a large majority of those people are new to the hobby. The kit from Arcadia is great quality and it isn't ripping people off. I totally agree that people are entitled to their opinions, that we should question people when we don't agree (to aid understanding and learning) and that many experienced minds discussing a subject will lead to improvements. 

However some of the replies on this thread are very rude and are actually a hindrance to discussions intended to improve the hobby. Saying people are overly sensitive and that you will not mince your words is another way of saying you don't care what people think and that your happy to insult someone in public regardless of backlash. Not nice traits.

Every post on a forum should have an aim... some of the replies to this thread simply aim to abuse another member of the community. It doesn't matter if it's John or someone else... at the end of the day if you cannot put your opinion across in a constructive way then please feel free not to post. If however you don't care and will post your opinion regardless then don't be surprised when your target or the community are not falling to their knees in awe.

What impact does this have to the forum... no wonder some new members say they are afraid to post. 

...


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Agreed.

It does seem quite a few people purposely target posts/people to be-little or insult them.

Should have seen the other thread yesterday...Some very synical people about. Worst part is, like in John's case, the offenders online friends seem to feel the need to agree, and often join in with insults and taking the Mick out of people.

And if there's one thing that really angers me, it's bullies...Especially the cowards on forums.

John seems like a smart guy to me.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

Ieuan7 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It does seem quite a few people purposely target posts/people to be-little or insult them.
> 
> ...


lol im afraid your right. There are people in life that seem to enjoy bullying people.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Luke said:


> lol im afraid your right. There are people in life that seem to enjoy bullying people.
> 
> image


Yeah that picture sums it up nicely! Lol

Most of these "keyboard warriors" are snivelling weasels in the real world aswell no doubt.

---

But this was what I was on about earlier;

Crepuscular lizards (active at dusk and dawn) such as leopard geckos and house geckos are traditionally considered to require no ultraviolet lighting in the vivarium. In the wild, however, there is no doubt that they do receive small amounts of ultraviolet radiation from the dusk and dawn skies and possibly also a little diffused UV penetrating between rocks and bark above their daytime retreats. A recent report described a wild Texas Banded gecko (Coleonyx variegatus) thought to be basking in evening light when the ambient UVB level was at least 33uW/cm².11 Leopard geckos in captivity may be observed basking occasionally (Fig. 10) and one of the authors of UV Guide UK provides UVB fluorescent tubes as daytime background lighting for all her geckos, with observed improvements in fertility and health.

Section taken from UVGuideUK

It's very basic but spot on.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Can we stop with the personality advice service, if you don't like someone just ignore their posts or pick out the useful bits and ignore the bits that get on your nerves.

I'm sure people don't come on here with tons of emotions and target people so I think it's a interpritation thing.
Just because you think someone is mean, doesn't make their advice any less respectable.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

While your right Chris, I think people will stop moaning about abusive comments, when abusive people stop commenting.

All the best mate


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Its very sad, typical of the RFUK threads that sidetrack to the extent they loose sight of the original thread topic. Im as guilty as anyone with regards to side tracking.

Jools who started this thread is one of the kindest, politest, most caring and most helpful members of the forum. She is highly respected as a keeper and as one of the people most willing to offer genuine help to other members. I dont recall her ever bad mouthing anyone oreven flaming anyone without dam good reason. Its not very often she asks for help regarding her own animals. Its a shame that when she does, her concerns are lost amongst pages of bickering, rudeness and hostility.

I apologise for any part Ive played in sidetracking things. I hope Jools has received the help and reassurance she needed. Please can we put the focus back on the OP and leave the less helpful antics behind.


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> While your right Chris, I think people will stop moaning about abusive comments, when abusive people stop commenting.
> 
> All the best mate


No because its getting in the way of the OPs thread.... If you don't like it then report it to the moderators and they'll judge whether its inappropriate and remove comments if that's the case.
If you have a problem with someone PM them with what you feel they could improve.

I really do feel sorry for jools but I'm sure if she was that annoyed with how the thread was going she would request the thread to be shut down and start a new one.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Mal said:


> Its very sad, typical of the RFUK threads that sidetrack to the extent they loose sight of the original thread topic. Im as guilty as anyone with regards to side tracking.
> 
> Jools who started this thread is one of the kindest, politest, most caring and most helpful members of the forum. She is highly respected as a keeper and as one of the people most willing to offer genuine help to other members. I dont recall her ever bad mouthing anyone oreven flaming anyone without dam good reason. Its not very often she asks for help regarding her own animals. Its a shame that when she does, her concerns are lost amongst pages of bickering, rudeness and hostility.
> 
> I apologise for any part Ive played in sidetracking things. I hope Jools has received the help and reassurance she needed. Please can we put the focus back on the OP and leave the less helpful antics behind.


Thank you Mal :blush:, but no apologies needed on your part.

Back to my Timon.........

I am taking into consideration the information / advice from Dragon Farm and colinm who are both very experienced Timon keepers. It seems, as I had thought when I bought the lighting, that this species need or certainly appreciate high output UV. I understand that basking for short periods and then hiding away is normal behaviour.

BUT - they are not now acting normally. They are very rarely basking and seem to try to find the shadiest areas in the vivs and just stay there. Their appetite is much reduced which is not normal.

Last night I bought some 6% kit (thank you Graham). But I am going to persevere with the D3+ for another week or so to allow them time to get used to it. The lizards are strong and healthy and I'm sure they're not going to hurt for a week or two. From all the comments I have always read about T5 lighting it is meant to be very "bright". But my new set-up does NOT throw out as much visible light as my old T8 12% and 2% tube set-ups - that is not to say that it isn't chucking out more UV which I know isn't visible. I am wondering if the Timon are missing the visible spectrum of light? Would changing their usual basking spots to halogens address this? Should I reinstall the 2% tubes alongside the D3+s? It's a bit of a conundrum.

I am loath to continue the generalised UV "debate" on here. It IS a subject that holds great interest for most of us and should be discussed - but in a civilised manner please.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

Ieuan7 said:


> Crepuscular lizards (active at dusk and dawn) such as leopard geckos and house geckos are traditionally considered to require no ultraviolet lighting in the vivarium. In the wild, however, there is no doubt that they do receive small amounts of ultraviolet radiation from the dusk and dawn skies and possibly also a little diffused UV penetrating between rocks and bark above their daytime retreats. A recent report described a wild Texas Banded gecko (Coleonyx variegatus) thought to be basking in evening light when the ambient UVB level was at least 33uW/cm².11 Leopard geckos in captivity may be observed basking occasionally (Fig. 10) and one of the authors of UV Guide UK provides UVB fluorescent tubes as daytime background lighting for all her geckos, with observed improvements in fertility and health.
> 
> Section taken from UVGuideUK
> 
> It's very basic but spot on.


Sorry for taking it off topic, my bad, i guess my humour sometimes gets the better of me.

anyway thats an interesting read, I know my friend whos served many times in iraq and afghanistan, once told me on the subject of lizards that he noticed lizards in the late afternoon/early evening out sitting on rocks, now whether that was leopard geckos i dont know, more than likely though. I think going back to the OP it mabe boils down to the location aswell, as with BD's in the outback the sun is glaring with no clouds so i guess with them being diurnal they get a lot of UV from this whereas in slightly less warmer/less exposed places where other reptiles inhabit they may get less if that makes sense??, especially if they are nocturnal or indeed Crepuscular.


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> No because its getting in the way of the OPs thread.... If you don't like it then report it to the moderators and they'll judge whether its inappropriate and remove comments if that's the case.
> If you have a problem with someone PM them with what you feel they could improve.
> 
> I really do feel sorry for jools but I'm sure if she was that annoyed with how the thread was going she would request the thread to be shut down and start a new one.


 
I feel that could have been done with yourself and a few others between john use of PM


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

TommyR said:


> I feel that could have been done with yourself and a few others between john use of PM


The later bit of your sentence confuses me?
Are you saying I'm one of the ones who was insulting John?
I certainly wasnt...


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

Chris18 said:


> The later bit of your sentence confuses me?
> Are you saying I'm one of the ones who was insulting John?
> I certainly wasnt...


 
No not at all just felt there was a disagreement between a few people on UV and his products or way he goes about posting, which would overall have been better by PM.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Luke - Yeah it's a pretty good site with some solid info and light shed on myths about these reptiles that require no UVB lighting. And I think the Geckos, as said on the site in more detail, have sensitive skin. They can't cope with mid-day sun like Dragons etc so they prefer dusk/dawn..But a small percentage of UVB (e.g. 2% tube left on for an hour or so in the evening) can go along way with health and fertility

Jools- Perhaps you could try the above mate? (If you haven't already) - Just keep a 2% tube on for an hour or two in the evenings. Their symptoms could be distress to an overdose of D3.

Good luck Eitherway budd


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Jools, I suspect youve probably tried this but just in case. The tank we have the Cuban False Chams in has a basking bulb and an Arcadia 12% D3 canopy. With it being an exo 45 x 45 tall there isnt much room between the basking bulb and the UV canopy. They have a big chunk of bark resting at an angle so that the top of the bark is directly under the UV and touching the mesh. They have a bit of vine that leads from that area finishing directly under the basking bulb. Information regarding lighting requirements for these critters is scarce. I wanted to ensure they could still bask but without necessarly being under the full glare of the UV. To achieve this I bought some large fake cheese plant leaves and fastened one a short distance below the basking bulb with perches beneath it. The Cubans do go and have a full on blast from the UV often clinging upside down on the mesh directly under the uv canopy. They also spend shortbperiods close to the basking bulb above the leaf getting heat and full on UV. However they also spend long periods under the big cheese plant leaf, getting the benefit of the heat but the leaf slits give dappled lighting from the lamp and UV rather than basking under full glare of the lights. The difference in temperature above and below the leaf is minimal. There is a significant reduction to light exposure though.
Hope that makes sense, Im having one of my days and Im doped to the heavrns on paun killeres. Sorry for the garble and typos but I hope you can make out what Im trying to say.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Yes Mal I know exactly what you mean.

I think what I failed to take into account was how much altering the UV in the vivs would change their WHOLE environments. 

As you can imagine I have spent a LOT of time and grey matter considering the situation - not easy for an old-timer like me.

The conclusions I'm coming to are that the species should be well able to cope with the level of UVb they now have but I'm going to have to adjust the gradients across the vivs.

To that end I am going to reduce the wattage of the basking bulb so that it does not dim so often, but raise the basking point. That will increase the temperature gradient across the vivs. Then, to provide a variety of UV levels across the temperature gradient, I will provide a Retes stack (thank you for the suggestion Chris) under the basking light and at the cooler side of the vivs I will mask off some of the UV output with foliage. I will also re-install the 2% tubes to provide extra visible light. 

I'll let you all know how it goes.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Update on info re UVB outdoors in Portugal. I wasn't going to bother today as by 10am rain set in, and the cloud cover didn't budge. 

But just out of interest I tried the UVB in the rain, with complete cloud cover, and no signs of the sun at 10.35am this morning. 

I got a reading of 51 microwatts per sq cm ! I think this is more UVB than many lizards will be getting indoors with a UV tube above them.


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## spottymint (Oct 3, 2010)

I do not keep the mentioned species. I have had an issue concerning an Arcadia product, John has been nothing but helpful & so has Steve at Southcoast exotics (product not even bought from him).

So no complaints here.

My post

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/equipment-supplies/945478-arcadia-t5-dead-out-box.html

the best customer service ever, can't say the same from Comet (wonder why they went bust :whistling2: )

Need to visit SouthCoast & become a customer, not allowed more reps though. :devil:


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

spottymint said:


> I do not keep the mentioned species. I have had an issue concerning an Arcadia product, John has been nothing but helpful & so has Steve at Southcoast exotics (product not even bought from him).
> 
> So no complaints here.
> 
> ...


I'm not complaining about an Arcadia product / service either. I was just disappointed in my lizards reaction to the T5s.


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## spottymint (Oct 3, 2010)

jools said:


> I'm not complaining about an Arcadia product / service either. I was just disappointed in my lizards reaction to the T5s.


I know you weren't, but a lot of flaming on your hijacked thread. Just pointing out my good experience with Arcadia & Arcadiajohn.

I'm not having a whinge at anyone here, (putting on my tin hat & ducking) :lol2:


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

spottymint said:


> I know you weren't, but a lot of flaming on your hijacked thread. Just pointing out my good experience with Arcadia & Arcadiajohn.
> 
> I'm not having a whinge at anyone here, (putting on my tin hat & ducking) :lol2:


All good :2thumb:


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Ieuan7 said:


> But a small percentage of UVB (e.g. 2% tube left on for an hour or so in the evening) can go along way with health and fertility


I have heard this said many many times but have yet to see a single shred of evidence to support this claim. In fact, we can see that it does not generally affect health and breeders who keep their geckos in racks where they never see UV dont seem to have any fertility issues at all. I know I never did when I used to produce a few hundred leos a season.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Gregg M said:


> I have heard this said many many times but have yet to see a single shred of evidence to support this claim. In fact, we can see that it does not generally affect health and breeders who keep their geckos in racks where they never see UV dont seem to have any fertility issues at all. I know I never did when I used to produce a few hundred leos a season.


The UV certainly wont do any harm if used correctly for leos or any other species. Its impractical to use it in racks and until affordable technology is developed that can be used in racks thousands of animals will continue to be produced without UV. In most instances the animals will display no health deficits. The key to this is diet and excellent supplementation. Without attention to this Im sure a lot of animals produced in racks would be in a sorry state. Rack systems are here to stay, they are used on massive commercial scale and I doubt any commercial breeder will switch to vivs simply to enable the use of UV. Ive said it before, we need the lighting guys, the nutritionists and those using racks on s large scale to get together and work out if or how we can make things bettrr. It will then filter down to the hobby level. We need to link all the pieces together.
Its a shame that what could be an interesting and informative discussion on UV etc isbtaking place here. It merrits its own thread leaving this one to help the OP with her individual problem.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Gregg M said:


> I have heard this said many many times but have yet to see a single shred of evidence to support this claim. In fact, we can see that it does not generally affect health and breeders who keep their geckos in racks where they never see UV dont seem to have any fertility issues at all. I know I never did when I used to produce a few hundred leos a season.


I think there is evidence on UVGuideUK.

The authors findings/readings etc are mainly on tests they have carried out, and the one I mentioned above is a quote, or rather, a simplified quote of one of the authors.

---

I agree with Mal. With the right nutrition, UVB may not be essential, but as Mal ask said it certainly won't do any harm if used correctly, that and the readings on UVGuideUK show support to the theory through their own research.

At the moment, I don't agree with the racking system really. I think it cuts the quality of life of the animals in them greatly. We have all these pre-determined sizes of vivariums for certain species, I.e. A adult water dragon Should live in no less than a 6x4x3 vivarium (Sorry for poor example, my knowledge on Gecko requirements is very limited) and I feel the raking system just completely ignores the basics.

Again as Mal said, with improvement, the racking system could be great. Perhaps abit more space, mainly height, and the introduction of possible UVB exposure would certainly help it sit better with me 

And sorry if I have taken it off topic, although I think the OP has had his question answered VERY thoroughly in regards to UV Exposure


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

I apologise for once again sidetracking on Jools thread. Thats one of the problems when discussion gets going, threads do side track.
Regarding the above, only an idiot would put a species like a CWD in a rub. The tubs in our racks give the animals more than the minimum required floor space. Leos do not utilise much height, they are generally clumsy climbers and if decor is located too high they risk injury from falls. They can sit comfortably on top of the large commercially available hides and still have space above. The see through plastic allows a natural light cycle. The only difference in an appropriately sized and furnished RUB in a rack compared to a viv is the aesthetics. The occupant doesnt give two hoots as to the appearance of the accomodation providing they have the warmth, shelter / hiding places and food they require. Its arguable that they actually feel more secure than being behind a glass with the daily traffic of human activity passing them evey so often. The way we decorate vivs is in many instances to make them pleasing to the eye and interesting to look at. Its for our benefit not the animal. Obviously arborial species are different and for those height and foliage are essential and there atent msny people keep these species in racks.
Anyhows, apologies for steering the thread even further off course. I hope Jools will update today and say she has begun to see more normal behaviour and activity in her animals.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

What about the tens of thousands of snakes of numerous species that are produced every year without uv or supplementation?


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Gregg M said:


> What about the tens of thousands of snakes of numerous species that are produced every year without uv or supplementation?


Snakes are a different subject altogether.

But they too benefit from UVB, but like Geckos, they are extremely sensitive to Exposure so it must be done professionally.

And yes my Chinese water dragon was not the best example, but an example was all it was about minimum living space guidelines.

The draws I have seen in videos look extremely small...My socks are given more living space. however I can't brand all with the same brush as I don't know much about rack systems, but as a generalisation, at the moment I am against them for reasons I stated above. 

Perhaps what I'm saying isn't generally practised in general care of the lizards/snakes as I can see why people may think it's not needed. But in a PERFECT set-up, UVB would have to be provided to make it perfect.

(Perhaps someone can Start a thread on this elsewhere?)


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Gregg M said:


> What about the tens of thousands of snakes of numerous species that are produced every year without uv or supplementation?


Thats a very interesting point Gregg. My knowledge / experience with snakes is very limited. We keep a few snakes in vivs but dont breed them. The calcium source is obviously obtained from the skeleton of the prey animal. I assume that the vitamin aspect is again covered by the prey animal. Whether substances such as D3 will be stored in the feeders liver for instance I couldnt say. I think its safe to assume though that they gain what they need from the feeder. What I can say is that when we switched the Garters and the King snakes to tanks with UV ee saw a marked increase in activity. We lost our oldest garter to a tumour but our two year old male is very active under his UV. His diet is trout with the option of a mouse. Generally he eats the trout and ignores the offered mouse. Its almost as if he takes the mouse when he needs a calcium top up. The Royals although in vivs dont have UV, they brought the fittings down too often. Is it possible the diet of farmed feeders makes them nutritionally similar to supplemented feeder insects for lizards ?


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Mal said:


> Thats a very interesting point Gregg. My knowledge / experience with snakes is very limited. We keep a few snakes in vivs but dont breed them. The calcium source is obviously obtained from the skeleton of the prey animal. I assume that the vitamin aspect is again covered by the prey animal. Whether substances such as D3 will be stored in the feeders liver for instance I couldnt say. I think its safe to assume though that they gain what they need from the feeder. What I can say is that when we switched the Garters and the King snakes to tanks with UV ee saw a marked increase in activity. We lost our oldest garter to a tumour but our two year old male is very active under his UV. His diet is trout with the option of a mouse. Generally he eats the trout and ignores the offered mouse. Its almost as if he takes the mouse when he needs a calcium top up. The Royals although in vivs dont have UV, they brought the fittings down too often. Is it possible the diet of farmed feeders makes them nutritionally similar to supplemented feeder insects for lizards ?


Yes it helps.

For example; I feed my feeder insects a mixture of fresh veg (to ensure maximum vitamin intake) that is also calci-dusted...Then the Dragon eats it and reaps the benefits of an insect packed with goodness!

I'd imagine it to be the same for a snake.

If the rodent/trout ate nothing but crap, it would have small amounts of nutrition and vice versa.


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

My garter has become more active and responsive and has taken to regular short basking sessions (something she never did when kept under the T8 ).

I hope to keep all my Natricines and temperate Ratsnakes outside as I'm sure they'd gain the same benefits as a Lacertid would.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Mal - thank you for your concern but I have absolutely no problem with UV provision in general being discussed here - I'm finding it interesting and (sometimes) informative. What upset me was when things started to get personal and quarrelsome.

I haven't been able to make my proposed changes to the Timon vivs yet due to work. I'll probably do it at the weekend and keep you all updated. They are behaving exactly the same today (I'm able to keep an eye on them cause I'm working from home ATM).


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## solarice (Mar 12, 2013)

For what its worth my gopher snake seems more active with UV (a 5% T5 iirc) than when there wasn't any...also feeding without UV she would usually retreat straight to the heat mat, now she seems to stay out in the more open UV area for a while and then goes to the heat mat which is more shaded.

I considered it a coincidence at first but now it seems so consistent i can only assume shes making use of the UV.

My thinking is if its there in the wild (excluding predators and natural disasters) then why not try to at least to provide it. I know that logic would be some task for a commercial grade breeder so i can understand the supplement methods from that point of view...and i'd rather supplements were used to compensate than nothing being given at all.

Oh and apart from the issue i had with the waterproof T5 screw caps (possibly being over cautious), i've not had any issues to report (fingers crossed it stays that way).


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Just read something of interest;

Recent studies show Leopard Geckos absorb UVB upto 14x faster than a Bearded Dragon.

This is why it's important to use low level lighting I.e. A singular 2% tube.

And albino like morphs of the Gecko have next to no immunity to UVB, and can suffer greatly with high levels of exposure.

Another good piece.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Ieuan7 said:


> Snakes are a different subject altogether.
> 
> But they too benefit from UVB, but like Geckos, they are extremely sensitive to Exposure so it must be done professionally.


According to John, there is no difference.

And what benefits do they get from UVB exposure? The supposed benefits are not clear or proven so it is a bit odd to say they absolutely benefit. Results speak much louder than assumptions. For many years we have seen generation after generation of geckos, snakes and other reptiles, successfully kept and bred without the use of UV.

I do not deny that UVB is needed for some species. But on the other side of the coin, there are many species that do just as well without it.



Mal said:


> Is it possible the diet of farmed feeders makes them nutritionally similar to supplemented feeder insects for lizards ?


This is exactly right Mal. And this is why UVB is not needed for snakes or reptiles who are offered a properly supplemented diet.



solarice said:


> For what its worth my gopher snake seems more active with UV (a 5% T5 iirc) than when there wasn't any...also feeding without UV she would usually retreat straight to the heat mat, now she seems to stay out in the more open UV area for a while and then goes to the heat mat which is more shaded.


And you see this being a good thing? I see this as a problem. Depending on the trigger, more activity can be a sign that something is not right with the husbandry. Your snake should be going directly to the hottest part of its cage after a meal. UV has nothing to do with digestion or a reptiles metabolic rate. That is what thermal gradient is for.

Keep a reptile in a cage that is 75 degrees F and add a UVB lamp. The snake will come out to bask but it will not be thermoregulating. This means it will not be digesting or metabolizing efficiently. See what I am trying to say? If you want to see a huge difference in activity level, utilize an overhead heat light and raise your basking temperatures. I am going to assume that you are keeping your gopher by the imaginary book and are only offering it an 88 degree hot spot. I apoogize if my assumption is wrong. To me, offering a very limited thermal gradient is WAY worse than not offering UVB. I mean, why do we only offer garters, kings, corns, and other colubrids such low basking spots in captivity when they are basking at temps over 100 degrees F in the wild?

And that is why I do not agree with Johns advice about offering the UV right over the basking spot. In order to thermoregulate properly, reptiles would need to be exposed to the UVB radiation longer than they need or should in some cases, especially with the very low basking temperatures that are commonly suggested. I think this is what is going on with Jools lizards. I think because of the lighting, they are not basking as they should be and they are not feeding regularly. And there is still no difference which means it is not really a question of the imaginary "new gear syndrome"...

This is what makes Johns advice very generic and for some species it can even be detrimental. UVB is not the answer to keeping all things reptile successfully. It may be one key along with many other keys to keeping some species successfully, but certainly not the majority of commonly kept species.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

I've kept snakes and bred some all without UV, and never been a problem, seen the affects of not using it on bearded dragons over a small time and so would never not have the best on the market for my bd, if I ever get snakes again, will I use it?? No more than likely not if I'm honest.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Luke said:


> I've kept snakes and bred some all without UV, and never been a problem, seen the affects of not using it on bearded dragons over a small time and so would never not have the best on the market for my bd, if I ever get snakes again, will I use it?? No more than likely not if I'm honest.


And that is exactly my point Luke.

It is the BS claims that UV is needed for all species in order to keep them successfully and the claims that it will increase breeding, fertility, clutch size, and hatch rate that I get fustrated with. These claims are also being made without any type of proof. Its all a marketing ploy and I can not believe how many intelligent folks do not see it.

It is one thing to promote your product but it is another thing to say if you are not providing it for your reptiles, you are not going to be a successful keeper or breeder.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I think this argument goes back to what Chris18 said, it is an argument of Morals.

There are 3 main outlooks on husbandry.
A) We must aim and strive to offer the closest natural enviroment we can in captivity.
B) Captivity is not natural at all so why bother (lets wrap them all up in cotton wool instead)
C) Tends to be somewhere in between all of that, my reptiles live naturally but I don't use substrate coz of impaction.... 

I have not bred anything for years, no point these days to be fair, I got some corn snake eggs last year via a rescue I took on, but they ended up dieing due to an error in my own judgement where the eleccy went out in my area.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

No your jumping the gun here.

No one has said ALL reptiles MUST have UVB. We have pointed out that recent findings have proved that species, such as Geckos, will benefit form UV exposure in captivity.

They get UV exposure in the wild, either by basking at dusk/Dawn or having UVB penetrate hides etc

---

Snakes can too benefit For the same reasons as the Geckos. It's a safety net against MBD.

On top of those. The UVA is needed for colour recognition. Which is essential in reptiles working out the sex of an opposite reptile, which can help speed up breeding as it makes it a faster process.


If you still think this is "Bull Shit" a quick google search, looking at various websites, at authors of genuine articles with genuine research and genuine findings.

None of the above is "Word of mouth".


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Ieuan7 said:


> No your jumping the gun here.
> 
> No one has said ALL reptiles MUST have UVB.


Read the quote and tell me that this is not insinuating that UV is needed to be a "much more" successful keeper and breeder. Plus there is NO literature at all to back this up. Oh, wait, there is... Johns "literature". It is all a ploy to drum up sales. Nothing more.



Arcadiajohn said:


> I am certain that providing the right level of light to a captive animal as would be experienced in the wild that is index for index over a targeted zone is the key to much greater success. Better breeding, more viable young, longer lifespans and the elimination of MBD from captive animals.





Ieuan7 said:


> We have pointed out that recent findings have proved that species, such as Geckos, will benefit form UV exposure in captivity.


Yes, you have tried to point it out. What you and John have not been able to do is provide anything that proves they benefit from it. Nothing to prove that UVB is really better than supplements.




Ieuan7 said:


> They get UV exposure in the wild, either by basking at dusk/Dawn or having UVB penetrate hides etc


No one here has denied this. But again, what is the difference on how they get their D3 in captivity? Is it proven that UV bulbs are that much or at all better than proper supplementation? No, it is not.



Ieuan7 said:


> Snakes can too benefit For the same reasons as the Geckos. It's a safety net against MBD.


So, how many confirmed reports of MBD have you seen in snakes? Be honest now. So besides this "safty net" that is not needed, what are the benefits?



Ieuan7 said:


> On top of those. The UVA is needed for colour recognition. Which is essential in reptiles working out the sex of an opposite reptile, which can help speed up breeding as it makes it a faster process.


Working out sex? Speed up breeding? Are you proof reading what you write? Firstly, animals that do not have UVA exposure will have no problem telling who is female or who is male. This is quite obvious because lets say you put two sexually mature male leopard geckos together, they will instantly display and fight. That is just one of many examples.

And how can you possibly "speed up the breeding process" when the actual process depends only on the females ovulation cycle? I do not care how much UVB you blast on a female, breeding will not happen unless she is receptive and ovulating.




Ieuan7 said:


> If you still think this is "Bull Shit" a quick google search, looking at various websites, at authors of genuine articles with genuine research and genuine findings.


I am not interested in a reptiles UV use in the wild. I am well aware of UV function and how animals in the wild use it.

There is nothing on any site that compares the health, fertility, hatch rate, longevity, or anything between reptiles under UV light and animals that are properly supplemented.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Vast majority of what you just quoted me on is irrelevant.

This is not a debate about supplements...this a UV debate. 

Doesn't matter what supplements do in the slightest budd. We all know leo's and snakes can live off man made vitamins, and it's getting tiring hearing about it (No offence).

According to snake keepers, who have done tests and reported their findings have said that their snakes have taken to food better with Exposure...Don't quote me on this, it's pointless, I don't keep snakes or care for them...Just do some digging mate if it bothers you that much, don't ask me.

All my "evidence" is a google search away, on various websites that I shall not be hunting back through on this bloomin IPod!

Equally, apparently, without UVA, Leo's are almost colour blind. They use UV wavelengths alot more than we do (or rather they depend on them more) 

Leo's, again, absorb a he'll of alot faster than BD. Make use of it, I'd bet money on the supplements not being as effective by being digested...Skins does the absorbing for a reason.


Off the top of my head, websites like UVGuide.co.uk will give you good information...that about the only one I can remember.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Also;

Keeing the environment as natural as possible is best. No argument there right?

Supplements are not natural...they are used in a non-natural way. In the wild the sun does it.

Exposure is natural, it is absorbed and used in a natural way...it's not perfect. But IMO it's better.

(Snakes are different, they get D3 from diet, Leo's do not...Naturally they do not anyways)


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Oh and the "Two males will instantly fight" proves nothing.

1. How do you know both lizards instantly know they are dealing with a male, and not just reacting to an intruder?
2. There is ALWAYS an observation period or "stand off" before battle begins. If there is not, its a startled animal reacting...Lizards are not animals that generally go Physco on contact with each other.
3. How do you know the stand off isnt Where they work each other out, probably deciding If it's a threat, or potential mate?
4. How do you know what affects their final decision, and more importantly, how do you know they don't rely on vision?

I say don't rely on vision, as much of their vision is based on UV wave lengths so I have read on various articles. Thus, making it much easier to tell friend from foe.

While it may not be a massive decider, it is still a decider.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> Also;
> 
> Keeing the environment as natural as possible is best. No argument there right?
> 
> ...


I disagree, reptiles will supplement themselves all the time in the wild for the exact same vits and mins that is in your average tub of multivits, if they are lacking in certain vitamins and minerals they will extract it from the earth and self supplement,, though the diets themselves are much more varied and packed full of natures nutriton so this may not be as "commonly seen" but supplementation is in fact perfectly natural , everything that is in your average tub of nutrobal was extracted from the earth in some way shape or form, how are they using it in an un-natural way? the only difference I see is that it is in a tub.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

wow some interesting posts since my last one, to be fair im on the fence with this one, could it be due to our own interpretation of the evidence put before us, we can make 2 and 2 equal 5 if we manipulated it enough surely?

John gave me some good advice, on the benefits of the correct UV for my beardie, Ive noticed the difference in behaviour, activity etc quite dramatically and my once quite dormant female is now very much a different character since the upgrade, so I cant speak highly enough of his products.
Now my Beardies I kept many many moons ago had only a basic UV bulb but the only difference was that i had males.

As for my snakes well ive never kept them under anything other than a wilko's finest spot bulb. and my females bred like a chav on housing benefit :lol2:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Love the way in these 'debates', phrases like 'the information is out there', 'In the wild they would' and 'scientific studies show' are thrown into replies.

If all that is true, where is the actual evidence?

Links to these 'proving' and peer approved/accepted articles or evidence would be nice so that we could all share in the knowledge. Maybe with such undeniable evidence everybody would agree and we'd see less of these 'debates'.....


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Look at the bald monkey.
Some are kept in conditions of absolute luxiary. They have absolutely everything they need. The best diet, the best accomodation, the best physical cinditions, reduced stress, the best health care etc etc. Generally they do very well with life.
Group two of the bald monkey has differing circumstances. Lifes a little bit tougher. They dont get the best of everything, their accomodation is often smaller, at times over croeded. They dont have access to the best of everything. Life is a little harsher, a bit more stressful but generally they do just as well as those in the first group.
Then you have a group that lives in appalling conditions. Struggles to meet basic requirements for diet and health etc etc. They have a shortened lifespan and in many instances life is just an existance.
I know this probay seems far removed from the discussion here but it isnt. Its all good and well to aspire to keep our reptiles in conditions equivelent to group one. To give them tbe perfect life.
In reality most reptiles are kept in conditions more like group 2. Its not perfect but all basic needs are met in one way or another. Often we would like to make thi gs better and as and when we can we will make things better.
If we kept our reptiles in conditions similar to group three then we should expect outcry.
The perfect conditions for a reptile in captivity rarely exist. They rarely exist for their keepers. To be honest, the way we have wrecked the planet perfect conditikns in the wild are becoming rarer.
The solution is to adapt. Wild animals adapt to changed in their environment. As keepers we adapt to make things work for our animals. Its fine to aspire towards keeping animals in conditions that perfectly mimic nature. Its rarely going to happen though. Providing basic needs are met, even if by artificial means, if the animal displays normal health, behaviour and life expectancy we shouldnt be too critical. Supplement, Uv etc etc...if the ani.als needs are covered its not a massive issue.
Now if we begin to see more and more animals in conditikns comparable to group 3 we should start yelling. When animals are suffering, unable to display normal functikn, normal behavior and life expectancy falls....then we have serioud issues to fix.
Thats probably a load of waffle...Im only on my first coffee. Sorry for the typos..postjng via phone.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

The thing is, nature does not create perfect conditions. In fact, nature is very harsh and unforgiving. Our job as keepers is to take away any negative variable like predation, big temerature fluctuation and exposure to harmful elements.The problem is, none of us can create the perfect conditions in captivity. It is impossible to do so in a cage. So we do what works. 

All I know is if I added something to a reptiles cage and it affected their behavior in a negative way, it would be gone instantly.

Someone asked me why I went through the expense of getting UV in some of my varanid cages. The reason is I heard all about these "awesome benefits" and figured why not give it a shot. I did a few different kinds of UV sources including MVB, Arcadia (yes, I admit it LOL), exo tera, zoo med and others. There were differences in how much light was in the cage, however, there was no difference in breeding, fertility, size of clutches. I did not see any difference in health or activity.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

*References for UV Light and reptiles*

Hello!

Goodness, when someone pointed me towards this thread asking about finding references about UV and reptiles in the scientific literature, I had no idea what I was dropping myself into the middle of!
(Well actually, the end of, I think - looks like everyone's settling down to accepting differences of opinion now, which is a good sign I reckon : victory

The literature on the benefits of adequate vitamin D3 in humans is one of the fastest growing databases in the WORLD right now. No kidding. Mal's lovely post about bald monkeys is highly relevant. Did you know that research is pouring in from every country on the planet showing that human populations living "modern" indoor lifestyles and avoiding natural sunlight are becoming grossly vitamin D3 deficient; and that vitamin D3 receptors are found in almost every organ in the body; and that vitamin D3 regulates over 2,000 genes in humans? Strong associations are being made with VitD3 deficiency and an enormous range of chronic conditions, mainly associated with auto-inmune diseases because vitamin D3 plays a very important role in the developing immune system. 
I have a Cite Track Alert on any new papers published in the literature with the key words Vitamin D and UVB, and I get on average 3 a day. Most are human research journals. If you're curious, then a couple of useful "easy-to-read" websites are Vitamin D Council > Information on Vitamin D, Vitamin D Deficiency and Vitamin D Toxicity and GrassrootsHealth | Vitamin D Action - GrassrootsHealth | Vitamin D Action. From these you can link into the scientific literature.

But as for reptile research: papers are few and far between. This is primarily because sadly, reptile research is practically non-existent and as for experiments including blood testing (the only adequate way to test for 25(OH)D3 levels, the indicator of D3 sufficiency) - it requires a Home Office Licence for Animal Experimentation to take blood samples for routine testing, making simple experiments on using lights vs. VitD3 supplements, for example, completely impossible outside of a laboratory. Apart from the huge cost. The best quote I know of, is £25 per blood sample....

The reptile-related papers that _have_ emerged recently are in my opinion, contradictory and some are of very dubious quality - one study, for example, seemed to be offering inadequate vitamin D3 supplement vs. a lot of very-short-wavelength UVB from a lamp that's no longer on sale; another gave enormous amounts of D3 but only illuminated a small part of the reptiles' backs with moderate UVB; another I think must have got some of their blood samples mis-labelled because the results look just like I'd have expected if I swapped round one of the UVB lamp set for one of the "no UVB at all" set!!
But anyway, rather than listen to me rambling on, dig into some of these.

Here's a big list of references I made when I last revised UV Guide UK.
http://uvguide.co.uk/references.htm
especially look at the references 1, 3, 9, 14 - 16, 36, 61, 64, 65, 66.

Here are some newer references, which will appear in my new website (in preparation): 

GARY W. FERGUSON, ANDREW M. BRINKER, WILLIAM H. GEHRMANN, STACEY E. BUCKLIN, FRANCES M. BAINES & STEVE J. MACKIN. 2010. Voluntary exposure of some western-hemisphere snake and lizard species to ultraviolet-B radiation in the field: how much ultraviolet-B should a lizard or snake receive in captivity? Zoo Biology 29 (3). 317-334. 
(abstract available online)
Voluntary exposure of some western-hemisphere snake and lizard species to ultraviolet-B radiation in the field: how much ultraviolet-B should a lizard or snake receive in captivity? - Ferguson - 2009 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library

Brames, H. 2007. Aspects of light and reptilian immunity. Iguana 14(1):17-23 (available online) 
www.qmvet.de/sources/aspects_of_light_and_reptile_immunity.pdf

BRAMES, H. and BAINES, F. 2007. Reptile Lighting is a Process not a Bulb. Exotic DVM 9 (3) 29 - 36 (available online)
http://www.ivis.org/journals/exoticdvm/9-3/Brames.pdf

MARK J. ACIERNO, MARK A. MITCHELL, MARLANA K. ROUNDTREE & TREVOR THEADORE ZACHARIAH. 2006. Effects of ultraviolet radiation on 25-hydroxyvitamin D(3) synthesis in red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans). American Journal of Veterinary Research 67.12. 2046–2049.

MARK J. ACIERNO, MARK A. MITCHELL, TREVOR T. ZACHARIAH, MARLANA K. ROUNDTREE, MEGAN S. KIRCHGESSNER & DAVID SANCHEZ-MIGALLON GUZMAN. 2008. Effects of ultraviolet radiation on plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations in corn snakes (Elaphe guttata). American journal of veterinary research 69.2. 294–297.

KARSTEN KB, FERGUSON GW, CHEN TC, HOLICK MF. 2009. Panther chameleons, Furcifer pardalis, behaviorally regulate optimal exposure to UV depending on dietary vitamin D3 status. Physiol Biochem Zool.82:218-225 abstract available online: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19335229

GARY W. FERGUSON, WILLIAM H. GEHRMANN, BRENT PEAVY, CATHY PAINTER, RUSTON HARTDEGEN, TAI C. CHEN, MICHAEL F. HOLICK & JOHN E. PINDER. 2009. Restoring Vitamin D in Monitor Lizards: Exploring the Efficacy of Dietary and UVB Sources. Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery 19.3. 81–88. (This one doesn't seem to be online anywhere right now, I'm afraid.)

MANNING, B and G C. GRIGG. 1997. Basking Is Not of Thermoregulatory Significance in the "Basking" Freshwater Turtle Emydura signata. Copeia 1997.3. 579-584. Preview available online: JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (Turtles don't need to bask for thermoregulation, so why do it? The hypothesis is that it is for vit D3.)

STEFAN HOBY, CHRISTIAN WENKER, NADIA ROBERT, THOMAS JERMANN, SONJA HARTNACK, HELMUT SEGNER, CLAUDE-P AEBISCHER & ANNETTE LIESEGANG. 2010. Nutritional Metabolic Bone Disease in Juvenile Veiled Chameleons (Chamaeleo calyptratus) and Its Prevention. Journal of Nutrition 140.11. 1923–1931.

K.R. KROENLEIN, K.L. ZIMMERMAN, G. SAUNDERS & S.D. HOLLADAY. 2011. Serum Vitamin D Levels and Skeletal and General Development of Young Bearded Dragon Lizards (Pogona vitticeps), under Different Conditions of UV-B Radiation Exposure. Journal of Animal and Veterinary Advances 10. 229–234.

D.G.A.B. OONINCX, Y. STEVENS, J.J.G.C. VAN DEN BORNE, J.P.T.M. VAN LEEUWEN & W.H. HENDRIKS. 2010. Effects of vitamin D3 supplementation and UVb exposure on the growth and plasma concentration of vitamin D3 metabolites in juvenile bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps). Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part B: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 156.2. 122–128.

This lot's the best I can come up with so far.

I can chip in a few words regarding my own experiences with using UVB. All my reptiles have UVB available in what I hope are suitable photogradients. I observe the "tails in hide entrances" phenomenon often, with my leopard geckos. I also see my Gargoyle gecko and my Moorish Gecko often resting in daylight hours with quite large parts of their bodies exposed to the UV light. Obviously my chuckwallas, iguana and bearded dragons bask fully under much more intense UVB in their basking zones.

My only concern with Jools' Timon lepidus enclosure is that the amount of UVB from a T5 Arcadia 12%UVB fitted with a reflector can be higher than that of most mercury vapour lamps.... Jools, if you don't have a UVB meter, please can you measure the distance from the tube surface to the place where the lizards' shoulders would be if they stood under it, and also say what sort of reflector you are using, if any, with this tube?
I'll then be able to work out what sort of UVB gradient you've got in there.
Where is the basking lamp in relation to the tube? What's the thermal gradient? A photo would be very helpful, too.

Best wishes,

Frances


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Frances are you going to be doing another independant survey of the various u.v. lamps and tubes on the market?


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## solarice (Mar 12, 2013)

Gregg M said:


> And you see this being a good thing? I see this as a problem. Depending on the trigger, more activity can be a sign that something is not right with the husbandry. Your snake should be going directly to the hottest part of its cage after a meal. UV has nothing to do with digestion or a reptiles metabolic rate. That is what thermal gradient is for.
> 
> Keep a reptile in a cage that is 75 degrees F and add a UVB lamp. The snake will come out to bask but it will not be thermoregulating. This means it will not be digesting or metabolizing efficiently. See what I am trying to say? If you want to see a huge difference in activity level, utilize an overhead heat light and raise your basking temperatures. I am going to assume that you are keeping your gopher by the imaginary book and are only offering it an 88 degree hot spot. I apoogize if my assumption is wrong. To me, offering a very limited thermal gradient is WAY worse than not offering UVB. I mean, why do we only offer garters, kings, corns, and other colubrids such low basking spots in captivity when they are basking at temps over 100 degrees F in the wild?
> 
> ...


Maybe you've read "more active" as going mental around the viv, this isn't the case i mean she more actively explores.

Good to see you've at least least apologised first as you're assumption is indeed incorrect. The viv in question has two main heat spots (a basking lamp and heat mat - in separate places) and has more than enough gradient for thermoregulation including a night time temp drop...this was something i've made sure about and it gets checked everyday.

I can assure you digestion is fine in fact i can just about set my watch to her cycle and she eats in the same clockwork fashion (she ate yesterday in fact)...ive had two occasions in the whole 16 years i've owned her where she hasn't eaten, both were season related and at the time the viv had no UV so that's not a factor.

The way i see it supplements are included to provide a vitamin or mineral that the rep is missing because its not out in the real world...

Surely even you must admit that there's the possibility however small that a snake or similar reptile that "doesn't need UV to survive" will be making use of the UV to assist in the absorption of vitamins? and i'm not saying just while basking i'm saying while out in the world.



Gregg M said:


> I am not interested in a reptiles UV use in the wild. I am well aware of UV function and how animals in the wild use it.


This though concerns me as like i've said i prefer to try and mimic the outside where possible and is possibly why we're never going to agree on the UV subject. Which is fine, i'm not trying to convert anyone to use anything, just giving my experiences.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Wow..I just woke up smarter! 

Not sure where or how to respond if I'm honest!?

But yes iv heard about D3 shortages in humans recetly, and it's apparently quite a problem and most of us suffer from it.

If we suffer from D3 deficiency, and our Food is of very good quality, and we have access to sun/UV Exposure EVERYDAY (everyday as even if it's raining, there is still light!) then i think lizards in captivity in general will struggle at the best of times. Even with the high grade supplements, it does not guarantee a healthy reptile. And the UV Exposure alone is not enough, also no guarantee.

That's why using both in conjunction is a good idea.

Its hilarious, we are running around like headless chickens for our reptiles, while we are the ones who are on the verge of being "Screwed".


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

colinm said:


> Frances are you going to be doing another independant survey of the various u.v. lamps and tubes on the market?


Hi, Colin.

I'm doing it now. I've done almost all of the testing, in fact - but it's creating good web pages with proper scientific references to back up every statement, that takes the time. 
There's no point in my publishing dozens of Excel charts without proper explanations....

I just keep getting distracted, too :Na_Na_Na_Na: .........but that's my fault! :blush:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> Wow..I just woke up smarter!
> 
> Not sure where or how to respond if I'm honest!?
> 
> ...


My food is of very poor quality, my staple diet is jaffa cakes, thats me screwed.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> My food is of very poor quality, my staple diet is jaffa cakes, thats me screwed.


I hear that!

I sh*t you not, I had an allergic reaction to fruit about 2 years ago. The misses when on fitness bender thing, and made two fresh smoothies a day, equivalent to about 5 a day, and insisted I too participated...2 weeks later my GP said my body was "In shock" to the sudden intake/overload of vitamins. Felt drowsy and weak.

That was the first time I'd been to the doctors for anything other than brakes/fractures/dislocations/physio the first diagnosis I had from a doctor, an allergic reaction to fruit...Was very funny!


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## heatherjhenshaw (Jan 30, 2010)

I've kind of been following this thread for 2 reasons, a) cos I'm interested for my reptiles, of which I have a variety :2thumb: and b) cos I'm one of those 'bald monkeys' that suffers from severe vitamin D deficiency....of I did...until I got treated by the top bods at Manchester Royal Infirmary, and I was in a baaaaad way. 

So in short, I have no idea if the symptoms of D3 deficiency are the same in reptiles as they are in humans (unfortunately I can't ask them) but if they are I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy  

I just wish it wasn't so confusing in the reptile world, you never know what to do for the best, UV is good in 99% of cases...ok most people agree there but then we enter the realm of supplements too and I start ripping my hair out :crazy:

I take high dose Vitamin D3.....but I don't suddenly overdose if I sunbathe.....does the same apply to reptiles....of course they sunbathe a lot more than I do :hmm: ....and around in circles I go again


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> My only concern with Jools' Timon lepidus enclosure is that the amount of UVB from a T5 Arcadia 12%UVB fitted with a reflector can be higher than that of most mercury vapour lamps.... Jools, if you don't have a UVB meter, please can you measure the distance from the tube surface to the place where the lizards' shoulders would be if they stood under it, and also say what sort of reflector you are using, if any, with this tube?
> I'll then be able to work out what sort of UVB gradient you've got in there.
> Where is the basking lamp in relation to the tube? What's the thermal gradient? A photo would be very helpful, too.
> 
> ...


Hi Frances, 

Nice to see you here. Ive read much of your work and many of the posts on the lighting forum. You are a great source of good information and your work in this field is greatly appreciated. Simply the posting of those articles you put up (I used a few of the same ones, though I obviously don't have the same sway as you do  ) gives significant evidence, especially in specific animals. 

However, as it relates to this thread and the larger picture, it is also important. It shows not only that UV is important (both A and B), but also that there is not much needed. I also found many of those studies lacking, especially as few of them compared the serum levels of Vit D metabolites to what was present in wild samples; perhaps the most important comparison. From those studies that did, we see that a relatively small amount of UVB is required to raise the levels of Vit D metabolites to that of wild specimens. So while it is true that UV light is good, it is likely also true that UV in high amounts can be detrimental over time or at the very least, not necessary. Its a wonderful position to finally be in, that we may be in danger of providing too much UV light, but not the first time its happened. 

I think knowing that, there is only one conclusion that can be reached from the OPs original question. Lets break it down:

1) Healthy animals with appropriate UV lighting, that showed no sign of ill health (eating well, thermoregulating properly, normal behavior in general) were presented.
2) One parameter change happened, that of greatly increased UV lighting.
3) As a result of this change, the animals stopped eating, stopped thermoregulating properly and abnormal behavior was presented. 

Its seems to me that the conclusion is that they are obviously reacting to the stress of the increased UV light and that it can simply be reduced to previous levels. Now the strange idea that somehow this is more like nature simply because there is more UV and that the animals should adapt to this new stressor is the part I dont understand. This change was not warranted by any necessity for health, as we see that the UV light supplied before was more than enough for their continued health based on all available studies and evidence. It is obviously a stress on the animals, as seen by their reduced health and behavior, so the idea that the animals should adapt to it seems odd to me. Why make your animals adapt to something that stresses them out, but has no known benefit, when you could simply remove the stressor without detriment? 

We have a new tool with the T5s and thats great, but that tool is not necessarily the best one for every situation all the time, as can be shown by this example and others. Yet time and time again on this forum, what we see is the T5 being the light that is given as the only choice for responsible keepers, without regard for any specifics surrounding the enclosures or animals. In fact, since this thread began Ive seen three different threads where someone asked about UV lighting. Before any parameters were even given or in some cases before the animal was even known, T5s were the suggestion. 

I feel this is much like saying all reptiles should be given the exact same level of high basking heat, simply because heat is good for them. If they dont like it, then they should just adapt to it somehow. This is not true or necessary, much like the T5s for every reptile and every enclosure.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

solarice said:


> Surely even you must admit that there's the possibility however small that a snake or similar reptile that "doesn't need UV to survive" will be making use of the UV to assist in the absorption of vitamins? and i'm not saying just while basking i'm saying while out in the world.


No, I do not agree because UV does not assist in the absorbtion of vitamins.
Vitamine D3 is synthesized during UVB exposure.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Yes agreed jairich.

Iv said multiple times the 10% tubes are way too Powerful for the Leo's. (and snakes) to have on all day.

They only need small amounts as they absorb the UV very quickly BECAUSE they have sensitive skin...Like me for example, put me in strong sun and il burn in about 20-30 minutes...other people wouldn't.

So after this information was given someone said they wer using a 10% and 2% on their Leo's which WILL make them I'll.

I think the information provided by all is brilliant on this thread, even the "We Love Supplments" guys he came in halfway through with the curve balls made some interesting points :notworthy:


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## solarice (Mar 12, 2013)

Gregg M said:


> No, I do not agree because UV does not assist in the absorbtion of vitamins.
> Vitamine D3 is synthesized during UVB exposure.


Which is what i meant (i was referring to calcium, so should have said minerals) and where it absorbs the end product...OK i didn't phrase it to your standards, so maybe that's your issue.

But please make up your mind, in one breath you say no UV is needed, in the next well they use UV to assist synthesizing...

But as i've said we'll go around in circles as you seem to be closed to other opinions / ideas...if this isn't the case then that's fine, but its certainly how you seem to coming across.

Btw as i forgot to mention it in my reply before i'm only using the lower watt 2ft version of the T5 in the viv and not a 3ft version which seems to be the most often recommended (in case anyone was wondering).


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Solarice - I think your right on the stubborn opinions and views.

I know before this debate I diddnt think much of supplements at all. Iv never used anything more than Calci-dust. And I thought they wer simply a lazy mans route to take.

But I know now they are beneficial to species, such as Leo's and snakes that are hypersensitive to exposure. An it makes sense to use them for the Leo's etc.

But hopefully my self and a few others have proven/suggested UV exposure can also be used. And can work just as well...And these people that say UV is not usefull and will do nothing are simply wrong.

You learn alot from others here fair play.


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## solarice (Mar 12, 2013)

Ieuan7 said:


> Solarice - I think your right on the stubborn opinions and views.
> 
> I know before this debate I diddnt think much of supplements at all. Iv never used anything more than Calci-dust. And I thought they wer simply a lazy mans route to take.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, i don't consider supplements or UV to be a case of one or the other (i hope that was clear before  ) and i'm always happy to learn.

I see it as, use whatever tools you have at your disposal to try and replicate as best as possible the circumstances the reptile would see in the wild, compromises included...

I've no issues if owners prefer to compensate with supplements (as you say sometimes its the best way), it just bugs me when other solutions (UV in this case) are ignored or outright dismissed as a possible tool when the domestic habitat provides a pretty good blue print to the conditions they would be living in.

There's no doubt too much UV will be bad, the same as too many supplements aren't good either.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

*Use of UVB lamps with snakes, geckos etc*

Hi, Ieuan7.
Yes, a combination of a 10% and a 2% lamp over a leopard gecko enclosure might be excessive.... IF.... the lamps were too close to the geckos. T5 lamps would be especially risky but in a reasonably large vivarium, T8s might be perfectly ok. Let me explain....

The naming of UVB lamps as "10.0" or "10%" or whatever is very misleading. It simply refers to the percentage of UVB in the total "UV + visible light". It doesn't actually tell you much about the intensity of UVB emitted by the lamp, at all. For the sake of example, a bright, high-total-output 5%UVB lamp could in theory easily put out more UVB than a dim low-total-output 10% UVB one.
People get confused because they think that a "10%" lamp is "very strong" and therefore can't be used with a leopard gecko, for example.

The problem is, it really isn't as simple as that, because the UVB received by a reptile from a lamp depends VERY much on the _distance_ from the animal, _and_ whether there is an aluminium reflector behind the tube.

Let's take an Arcadia T5 D3+ 12%UVB or ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 T5-HO lamp, for example. (These are indistinguishable, by the way, in terms of spectra and output so I'm happy to give figures for one as equivalent to the other.) These are absolutely the highest-output UVB tubes on the market for reptile use anywhere, right now.
Here's the measured irradiance (UV Index) which a lizard would get on his shoulders if he stood under the lamp, first if it is hung with an external ballast and endcaps (i.e., no reflector) and second, if it is in an Arcadia Slimline Luminiere which has a built-in reflector:

at 6in distance: no reflector = UVI 4.0. In luminiere = UVI 8.7
at 12in distance: no reflector = UVI 1.7. In luminiere = UVI 3.5
at 18in distance: no reflector = UVI 0.9. In luminiere = UVI 1.9
at 24in distance: no reflector = UVI 0.6. In luminiere = UVI 1.1

You can see that at a distance of 6", this tube in a luminiere is producing very high UVB levels, equivalent to full tropical sun around 10.00am. But at 24" distance, even in the luminiere, you're not getting more than you can get easily on an overcast day in the UK, or in shade on a sunny day.

Now according to Ferguson et al (2010), Zone 1 species (crepuscular and shade-dwelling snakes and lizards) on _average_, during their daylight hours, experience background levels of UV up to UVI 0.7 (max UVI recorded for a single individual in the study was UVI 1.4) so if I hung this very high-output tube about 2ft above a leopard gecko enclosure, with no reflector, even if he stood right under it, he would only get what it has been estimated that crepuscular species may get in the wild. 
So there would be nothing wrong in using a 10.0 lamp in that way.
_But of course, any closer and it becomes totally unsuitable for a Zone 1 reptile. _

Zone 3 reptiles (Open sun and partial sun basking species) such as bearded dragons on _average_, during their daylight hours, were found to experience background levels of UV from UVI 1.0 to 2.6 (that's averaging shade _and_ sun experiences together) and when sun-basking, max UVI recorded for a single individual in the study was UVI 7.4. 
So a beardie might do fairly well if given a 10.0 T5 with NO reflector at a distance of about 12", as long as the tube was lighting a fairly large portion of the enclosure - i.e. providing ambient levels around UVI 1.5, like "UV in the shade on a sunny day". 
But for basking species, it would seem more natural to put the T5 tube *in a luminiere* at 12" distance, but only covering the basking zone - thus providing a UVI of about 3.5 (like morning summer sunlight), so creating a "patch of sunlight" in the vivarium.

Reflectors vary a lot in the amount they increase the effective UVB underneath them. A simple clip-on reflector, like the Arcadia strip reflector, has an even more pronounced effect and can actually treble the UVB beneath a T5 tube. So all these things need to be taken into account when deciding whether to use T5 tubes, and whether to fit reflectors.

Best wishes
Frances


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Very true mate^

I diddnt even take distance into consideration if I'm honest, I picture the standard 30x45x30 Exo Terra terrariums they are typically kept in.

Yes creating a morning/evening sun glow would be best, rather than having a light on all day.

But as you said, if you have a large enough vivarium, any percentage/power tube could be used, and would have to be used to reach the desired effect. Assuming you have a reflector, it would have to be a fairly large vivarium (larger than typical) for the use of Powerfull W tubes I'd imagine to neutralise the risk of over-exposure?!


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Also, the one article I read, stated that Leo's are 14x more susceptible to UV than Bearded Dragons due to their sensitive skin an lack of "Armour".

If that is accurate, for arguments sake, easier math, and to allow for variables, let's call it 10x.

A BD spending 10 hours under a T5, is the equivalent of a Leo spending 1 hour under it.

If the Leo spends 10 hours (I.e. One day) under the T5, its the equivalent of a Dragon spending 100 hours, or 10 days under the tube (Assuming 10 hours of exposure equals a complete day cycle)

I know it's a lose estimate, but It should drive home how carefully UV should be applied to a Leo's habitat.

They hide in the wild for a reason...and the above is probably why lol


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## heatherjhenshaw (Jan 30, 2010)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> Hi, Ieuan7.
> Yes, a combination of a 10% and a 2% lamp over a leopard gecko enclosure might be excessive.... IF.... the lamps were too close to the geckos. T5 lamps would be especially risky but in a reasonably large vivarium, T8s might be perfectly ok. Let me explain....
> 
> The naming of UVB lamps as "10.0" or "10%" or whatever is very misleading. It simply refers to the percentage of UVB in the total "UV + visible light". It doesn't actually tell you much about the intensity of UVB emitted by the lamp, at all. For the sake of example, a bright, high-total-output 5%UVB lamp could in theory easily put out more UVB than a dim low-total-output 10% UVB one.
> ...


Oh my goodness.....very very interesting, but I think my brain just exploded :lol2: how on earth is an average idiot like me supposed to work out what is best strength/distance etc :crazy:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

heatherjhenshaw said:


> Oh my goodness.....very very interesting, but I think my brain just exploded :lol2: how on earth is an average idiot like me supposed to work out what is best strength/distance etc :crazy:


This is why it would be ideal for us all to have solar meters, but.... there pretty expensive and frankly thats the kind of money I don't have to be forking out on a peice of equipment. £200 I think was the last price I seen for a 6.2.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

In the long run its money well spent if you use lots of tubes/bulbs as it tells you when you should renew them as well as checking the output.The tubes are expensive,how many have you thrown away too soon or after too much time when their output is almost worthless?


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

Hi, Ieuan7.

The interesting thing about vitamin D3 synthesis from UV light is that it's a self-limiting process. As soon as the skin has made a certain maximum amount, any more that is produced is almost immediately converted to one of several inactive substances. So you (and almost certainly reptiles, too) can never overdose on vitamin D3 produced by natural sunlight, or from artificial sources with spectra very similar to natural sunlight in the UVB range.

But of course any animal can get damaged or burned eyes and skin from excessive UV. Either UVA or UVB can do this - via two different biochemical pathways. We get "sunburn" and "photo-kerato-conjunctivitis", and I've seen similar burns, and worse, in reptile skin and eyes under unsuitable lighting. 
The main thing that protects reptiles from unsuitable UVB is their fine-tuned thermoregulation sense and ability to see bright light (including UVA); because in the wild, high UVB and high UVA + visible light + infrared radiation (= warming of skin) all go together. So if you're a reptile, you expect something that looks like bright sunlight to have all these 3 things, and you'll seek out and/or avoid bright patches of sunlight in order to stay at exactly the temperature you need to be, to survive. 

Then, in your natural surroundings, in the wild, evolution will have ensured you have just the right thickness of skin and amount of pigmentation (eg. "tan") to protect yourself from burning but also to absorb plenty of UVB to synthesise your vitamin D3 requirement, while you carry on your normal existence... whether that means basking in full sun if you're a beardie, or sticking your tail out of your daytime hide, into daylight but not direct sunlight, if you're a leopard gecko.

The problems facing a captive-bred morph with un-natural pigment and/or skin thickness (eg. albinos, hypos, scaleless snakes, silkback beardies etc) then become obvious.... 

But for "normal" wild-type morphs, I do think the heat, light and UV requirements are best met by trying to provide a suitable microhabitat and light/heat/UV gradient comparable to that in the wild - with lots of shelters, too.

Best wishes,

Frances


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

colinm said:


> In the long run its money well spent if you use lots of tubes/bulbs as it tells you when you should renew them as well as checking the output.The tubes are expensive,how many have you thrown away too soon or after too much time when their output is almost worthless?


£200 could buy me 2 more t5 setups, and probibly to have enough left over to build an outdoor enclosure, thats money well spent. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

solarice said:


> Which is what i meant (i was referring to calcium, so should have said minerals) and where it absorbs the end product...OK i didn't phrase it to your standards, so maybe that's your issue.


Yeah, but what you said and what you ment to say are two different things. That is exactly how easy it is for bad, incorrect information to et passed around as fact. It has nothing to do with "my standard". Correct information sould be THE standard.



solarice said:


> But please make up your mind, in one breath you say no UV is needed, in the next well they use UV to assist synthesizing...


UV is indeed utilized to synthesize D3. I never said different. What I did say if that it is not needed in captivity for the majority of species because they either get D3 from their food source or they get it in their supplementation. I have also pointed out numerous times that many of these species we commonly keep and breed in captivity have been kept without UV for decades with great success.



solarice said:


> But as i've said we'll go around in circles as you seem to be closed to other opinions / ideas...if this isn't the case then that's fine, but its certainly how you seem to coming across.


Its is not that I am closed to others opinions. I do respect others opinions. However, when things are stated as fact without putting any proof up on the table, that needs to be called out. When someone makes a BS claim like this one.....


Arcadiajohn said:


> providing the right level of light to a captive animal as would be experienced in the wild that is index for index over a targeted zone is the key to much greater success. Better breeding, more viable young, longer lifespans and the elimination of MBD from captive animals.


They better bring some proof with it. It is nothing but marketing. Trying to get people to buy some expensive bit of equipment they really do not need to be a good, successful keeper and/or breeder. That is the bottom line. And that is what my problem is with John. He says he is here to help but in almost every thread he is involved in, it turns into an Arcadia lighting infomercial. Enough is enough.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Gregg M - There has been alot of new information provided since you last commented.

I think it is pretty widely accepted that Leo's and Snakes can benefit from UV.

But, it's another question on if it's needed...That's a personnel choice.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

Ieuan7 said:


> Gregg M - There has been alot of new information provided since you last commented.
> 
> I think it is pretty widely accepted that Leo's and Snakes can benefit from UV.
> 
> But, it's another question on if it's needed...That's a personnel choice.


A lot of new information that still does not answer a very important question. Are captive animals that are provided with UV healtier than those who are not. Do reptiles with UV exposure really live longer, breed better, lay more eggs, and produce more viable young than animals who are well taken care of and properly supplemented if needed? That information is what I am looking for and that is what is really important.

When it comes to this question, opinion means absolutly nothing. What people "feel" and what is actual fact, are two very different things. Everything we do is a personal choice. Some of these choices are based on opinion and some on factual information. For example, I choose not jump from a 500 foot bridge because you will die as a result. Someone that is having a bad life and wants to end it will choose to jump from the bridge because of the fact you will die as a result. Then, there is that idiot that thinks/feels/has the opinion he will live if he jumps from a 500 foot bridge when the fact is, he will die as a result, but he jumps anyway.... So where does personal choice or opinion really get us?

See, I am tring to get away from opinions and personal choices and get to actual facts.



Ieuan7 said:


> I think it is pretty widely accepted that Leo's and Snakes can benefit from UV.
> 
> .


So, does being "widely accepted make something actual fact? It is pretty widely accepted that aliens visit Earth but there is a huge lack of proof. So besides that, what is this benefit that leos and snakes get from UV exposure? Can anyone pinpoint these "benefits"?


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

That wasn't the original debate if I may add.

I don't think I have enough Info to assist further.

But I suggest instead of asking others for results, you take a dive and find them your self. That's the only way you can be sure.

My logical guess would be UV Exposure is better than supplements due to the extra power, and faster delivery to the animals system.

An animal can hide from Exposure, but can not hide from the chemicals it has ingested.

You have offered very little to the debate other than non-usefull criticism. From here on, don't say "Your wrong because I think" which is all your saying, try practicing what you preach, and PROVE me wrong. Do not suggest, prove.

If you disagree, "Produce Facts".


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## jb1962 (Sep 21, 2009)

Chris18 said:


> Barlow, I respect your opinions but to deny UV is beneficial to any reptile is nonesense sorry.
> Is it necessary to get from hatchling to adult? Certainly not, for any species if they're supplemented correctly but there's benefits to using it all the same.
> It's a moral argument whether to provide it or not.
> Ofcourse I agree noone should take John's advise as the sole source but can you really deny he does have some good research behind his company that is voluntary.... They could be like Exo Terra and just stick the products out and not advise anyone on them or research into the benefits of it.
> ...


Very well said.


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

jb1962 said:


> Very well said.


I would like to see some actual research done, keeping a few species of lizards with and without UV noting differences in the things listed by gregg. Think mainly people say they notice a increase in activity with UV and arcadia but nothing else basically would love to see it be done.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

*Research into the benefits of UV?*

Hi, guys.

There is a fair amount of scientific evidence as to the effects on living cells, (many of them beneficial) of UVA and UVB other than vitamin D3 synthesis. 
There is also, as I've suggested in previous posts in this thread, an enormous, growing literature about the importance of vitamin D3, and the extremely efficient way that animals synthesise it from appropriate UV light.
There is some evidence that oral supplementation is not utilised by the body in the same way as that synthesised in the skin. And for many species -virtually all herbivores, and probably most insectivores - oral D3 is abnormal, as it is not found in the natural diet. It is also not found in nearly sufficient quantities in the wild diet of many omnivores - humans (even those NOT living on Jaffa cakes  ) can only get about 10% of their daily needs from food. So although D3 in the diet works well for many species, it is a "backdoor" way of getting a vital nutrient normally supplied by synthesis in the skin.
There is also some new work being done on the "other" photoproducts generated in skin by UV light, and their possible biological significance. 
BUT...
Unfortunately, almost all the research is being done on humans, (or primates and rodents, as mammalian models of human physiology) or chickens - for economic reasons of course. 

In these species, various experiments and surveys have shown significant improvements in general health (reduced incidence of many chronic diseases as well as infections), increases in fertility and improved health of offspring, when vitamin D levels are improved. Of course, a consequence of reduced infection and disease, (not least reduced incidence of rickets/MBD - which is basically end-stage vitD deficiency) is improved longevity. 

If you're happy generalising, then I think it's fair to say that a bit of research on Google will lead most people to conclude that simply offering a daily puff of vitamin D3 powder on the food isn't going to be as all-round beneficial as appropriate full-spectrum lighting.

Most of the evidence for improvements in these things in herpetoculture have not been published in peer-reviewed journals, simply because they have not been tested in experimental trials. I would dearly love to see some good trials carried out. But for the results to have scientific validity, a large number of animals are needed and controls must eliminate a very large number of variables... A large-scale breeder might be able to do something useful if several hundred animals could be enrolled in a trial... Sadly, although every bit of evidence is of interest, it would be very hard to prove anything done in a small private collection; people just say the results are "anecdotal". 

My own anecdotal results are as follows. Until I added UVB lighting to my leopard geckos, I was getting infertile eggs, and a significant number of fully formed embryos failing to hatch, leading to about a 50% hatch rate . I also had several cases of egg-binding and egg peritonitis, with infertile eggs which they were not able to lay. This was despite using Nutrobal on all livefood. The year after I added UVB tubes, I had 100% hatch rates and not a single egg-laying problem in any of them. 
But since I've never had more than five females and two males, this is just anecdotal. Of course.

However, the very effective prevention of vitamin D deficiency by good UVB lighting has led many knowledgeable and experienced breeders and vets not only to advocate the use of UV personally, but to write about its use in husbandry books and veterinary guidelines for many species.
Maybe it would help if someone had time to work through the herpetocultural literature and sift out these references... make an article out of them... evaluate their significance?

My biggest worry about supplementation is that it seems to be PURE guesswork as to how much is needed. It's only since blood testing really got going in the last 5 years, that we've had any real clue as to how much humans need...(and what a mess we've made of guessing that, in the past!) I haven't seen a single study that indicates a dosage that's suitable for one species of reptile - let alone the hundreds of species we keep in captivity. A "pinch" of vitamin powder shaken over a food bowl or some insects. How scientific is that? How adequate is it?

I don't think we should forget that most reptiles have very good UV vision, too, so its absence has an effect on the animals' perception of the world. Another reason for including it in the light we offer our captives.

Just my two cents worth.

Frances


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## solarice (Mar 12, 2013)

Gregg M said:


> Yeah, but what you said and what you ment to say are two different things. That is exactly how easy it is for bad, incorrect information to et passed around as fact. It has nothing to do with "my standard". Correct information sould be THE standard.


I agree and hold my hand up it was a typo that i missed.



Gregg M said:


> UV is indeed utilized to synthesize D3. I never said different. What I did say if that it is not needed in captivity for the majority of species because they either get D3 from their food source or they get it in their supplementation. I have also pointed out numerous times that many of these species we commonly keep and breed in captivity have been kept without UV for decades with great success.


Which is what i'm getting at, supplements by their nature are made to try to compensate for the lack of UV...surely then UV in the viv is beneficial to achieve the same outcome.



Gregg M said:


> Its is not that I am closed to others opinions. I do respect others opinions. However, when things are stated as fact without putting any proof up on the table, that needs to be called out. When someone makes a BS claim like this one.....
> 
> They better bring some proof with it. It is nothing but marketing. Trying to get people to buy some expensive bit of equipment they really do not need to be a good, successful keeper and/or breeder. That is the bottom line. And that is what my problem is with John. He says he is here to help but in almost every thread he is involved in, it turns into an Arcadia lighting infomercial. Enough is enough.


Fair enough, proof though is hard to come by for a number of factors...you even questioned my experiences with the lighting and i don't get paid by them 

All i can say is i've setup the viv based on an average section of UVI from data online (the snake in question is spread over the US, so i picked a state.) and with the tube vs height i'm using she shouldn't be being over exposed to UV (eats and sheds fine) and isn't acting like shes got any problem. 

I feel doing the math is the way to go, not to just save money but to achieve the correct results.

The T5's in my case were chosen because of size, performance and cost plus from the evidence online (UV tests and info) and based on suitability for my use, so the marketing while it was noted wasn't used as the deciding factor (i rarely totally believe the hype of any product).

I do however think we may be in a catch 22 situation, if you don't believe any of the marketing how will you be willing to believe the result of a study conducted by the company that's trying to sell the product?

You can just about manipulate any data to give the answer you want.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> Hi, guys.
> 
> There is a fair amount of scientific evidence as to the effects on living cells, (many of them beneficial) of UVA and UVB other than vitamin D3 synthesis.
> There is also, as I've suggested in previous posts in this thread, an enormous, growing literature about the importance of vitamin D3, and the extremely efficient way that animals synthesise it from appropriate UV light.
> ...


Frances,

This is all great and it may very well point to uv benefiting all animals.

My issue with all this and indeed the way some people continuously go overboard about the 'benefit' of UV light is that it is still to a great extent 'speculation'. Like you say, a lot of the research and resulting papers etc are limited to an extent. I read some of the links you posted earlier and they still seemed to be 'may be'/'we feel'/'evidence to suggest' type articles.

Now in the same way, I'm sure folks could feed one of the newer supplements (as an example Repashy calcium plus) and (as they have) say that they have seen increased 'activity'/'hatch rates' etc etc when compared to using previous 'older/less efficient' products.

So is this not the same as improvements in UV causing 'better results'? Neither of which are being particularly proven ?

You mention an improvement in your leopard geckos after providing UV. However many of the issues you mentioned I have never experienced while using an oral supplementation routine. So if the end result is the same, ie increase hatch rate 'healthy hatchlings' etc then does this actually 'prove' anything other than that there may be successful alternatives to UV provision in many reptiles?

Just a thought. 

One final thing, there still seems to be much debate about how UV is setup for different genus/species, this to mean seems to suggest that the 'perfect' habitat is still not being provided even where UV is being used.

I strongly believe that there is more than one way to do things in the majority of instances, not just regarding reptile keeping. In many ways the end result can often be achieved via a different route.....


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

If I could like this 1000 times, I would. Great post. I just dont have the same "nice paragraph skills" as you. LOL



Big Red One said:


> Frances,
> 
> This is all great and it may very well point to uv benefiting all animals.
> 
> ...


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Lilacdragon2007- very good paragraph.

You succeeded to provide what I could not, evidence to back my words in a sense.

It's VERY hard typing on an Apple product...I couldn't even quote your reply as it was too large for this device lol

Searching site and providing link is another difficult task.

But I'm glad someone agrees with me and more than explained what I have been trying to do for Gregg etc.

I hope his input will have the "Negative nannies" get off my back.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> Lilacdragon2007- very good paragraph.
> 
> You succeeded to provide what I could not, evidence to back my words in a sense.
> 
> ...


You do know who Francis is right? : victory:
She is a pretty clued up reptile expert (who dedicated the rest of her life to UV research (retired vet) if anything you would be agreeing with her, based on what you have said previously I am guessing you have read some of her work.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> You do know who Francis is right? : victory:
> She is a pretty clued up reptile expert (who dedicated the rest of her life to UV research (retired vet) if anything you would be agreeing with her based on what you have said previously I am guessing you have read some of her work.


One presumes not!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Stephen P said:


> One presumes not!


Maybe I am nit picking.... I do that in my spare time.
:2thumb:

:lol2:

Anyways this discussion has been quite the education.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> You do know who Francis is right? : victory:
> She is a pretty clued up reptile expert (who dedicated the rest of her life to UV research (retired vet) if anything you would be agreeing with her, based on what you have said previously I am guessing you have read some of her work.


No I don't know her, and yes I have probably read articles by her...What's your point?

I was saying, pretty much everything I mentioned originally, about 7-10 pages ago, she has agreed with and/or shed more light on with her expetise.

So...I fail to see the objective of your "It's you who should be agreeing with her" 

That seems very odd...

As I very much did agree with her...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> No I don't know her, and yes I have probably read articles by her...What's your point?
> 
> I was saying, pretty much everything I mentioned originally, about 7-10 pages ago, she has agreed with and/or shed more light on with her expetise.
> 
> ...


Nothing other than just highlighting : victory:


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

Hi, Big Red One.
Nice counterpoints to my post 
Ok.... Basically I agree with most of what you say.



Big Red One said:


> My issue with all this and indeed the way some people continuously go overboard about the 'benefit' of UV light is that it is still to a great extent 'speculation'. Like you say, a lot of the research and resulting papers etc are limited to an extent. I read some of the links you posted earlier and they still seemed to be 'may be'/'we feel'/'evidence to suggest' type articles.


Yes. The scientific literature is always full of "maybe" and "evidence to suggest", for a very good reason. It's how scientific papers work. You state a hypothesis then try to confirm or deny it with your experiment. You know from the start that you aren't going to "prove" anything; you "suggest" an explanation and if there is already another similar piece of research out there, you see if its findings support yours; if you can't find anything similar (as is the case with most reptile UV/D3 stuff) you offer your best explanation and the next scientist to come along sees if they can think up another experiment to confirm or deny your suggested explanation.
Saying "This proves ...." is unacceptable, except in the most extraordinary circumstances.

My point is not that any of the studies I've found prove the case for UV lighting. What I believe is that they show there is very sound evidence that UV light has a very important effect upon almost all living things on the surface of the earth. Life here evolved under the sun and evolution optimises the organism for its environment. Therefore I conclude that the optimal environment for any life form is the microhabitat in which it evolved...... That microhabitat includes UV (but UV is only a tiny part of it).



> Now in the same way, I'm sure folks could feed one of the newer supplements (as an example Repashy calcium plus) and (as they have) say that they have seen increased 'activity'/'hatch rates' etc etc when compared to using previous 'older/less efficient' products.


That's advertising for you. I've seen FAR worse than that, absolute total rubbish, on lots of reptile goods, as we all have. Arcadia are actually pretty good in that respect. I can't say I've seen much hype on their boxes and product leaflets, at least.



> So is this not the same as improvements in UV causing 'better results'? Neither of which are being particularly proven ?


Proving that "improvements in UV cause better results" AND "Product X causes better results" should be possible if people actually carried out the research, and published their findings.
But there's a huge difference between "optimal levels of UVB as found in the microhabitat of the species" and "Product X". 
Improvements from using Product X are eminently testable. And I think in an ideal world every responsible company SHOULD do these tests and publish the results. WOW what a difference that would make! (If the make-a-quick-buck brigade didn't lie, cheat and do creative accounting on their figures of course...)
But we don't even know what the natural microhabitat IS for some of our pets!! (Has anyone ever studied the life of wild leopard geckos? No! Unbelievable but true.)

Here's what I see as John from Arcadia's dilemma....
I'm very lucky that I've never been tempted to promote or sell any product, and I steer well clear of it, because it means people don't automatically assume that if I state my belief about something (like a lamp or a vitamin supplement) that I must have some sort of ulterior motive, like product advertising....
I think John from Arcadia suffers a lot from this. If he states his beliefs about, for example, eliminating MBD (as came up earlier in this thread) immediately someone jumps in and says he is trying to sell something. Actually I think John has a point - I think decent provision of suitable levels of UVB could largely eliminate MBD in one generation. I say this because I have never heard of a single case of a wild animal ever being found with MBD.. and no-one puts D3 powder on their dinner LOL.



> You mention an improvement in your leopard geckos after providing UV. However many of the issues you mentioned I have never experienced while using an oral supplementation routine. So if the end result is the same, ie increase hatch rate 'healthy hatchlings' etc then does this actually 'prove' anything other than that there may be successful alternatives to UV provision in many reptiles?
> Just a thought.


Precisely why my anecdote proves nothing, and yes, of course there are successful alternatives. To quote Jurassic Park, "Life will find a way". Reptiles are the most adaptable of creatures, they are survivors in some of the harshest climates on earth. And... even humans today survive and have families and sometimes remain happy, in very stressful, polluted living conditions on a huge range of diets and with, in many cases, several generations of quite severe vitamin D deficiency. But we are starting to see chronic degeneration in human health and fertility in many "modern" societies.... 



> One final thing, there still seems to be much debate about how UV is setup for different genus/species, this to mean seems to suggest that the 'perfect' habitat is still not being provided even where UV is being used.


_*Totally agree!*_
Anyone want to give me a couple of acres in Arizona, where I can live with my chuckwallas? :flrt:



> I strongly believe that there is more than one way to do things in the majority of instances, not just regarding reptile keeping. In many ways the end result can often be achieved via a different route.....


Yes.
We all try to find the best way. No-one can do better than his/her best. But we can't find the "perfect" way, because keeping an animal in captivity isn't ever going to be perfect. I do the best I can for my little guys but we all have limitations, either due to budget or circumstances or personal needs. 
I advocate use of suitable UV lighting because I think it offers multiple benefits to all living things, that they can't get from anything else.

Frances


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Salazare Slytherin*
> _She ... dedicated the rest of her life to UV research
> _


:gasp: Oh *GOOD GRIEF*, is that MY EPITAPH?!!! 

:lol2:
Frances


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Nice points Frances.

I actually totally agree that UV is present for all living things on the surface of the earth. What I take issue with is people continuously pushing that UV is needed in any reptile set up - end of.
The facts are, SOME reps can be kept with oral supplementation only, some with none at all (most snakes) and some certainly do require a UV basking area to remain healthy.

I totally understand that even scientific research has to have an element of conjecture, but this again proves that we currently cannot state 'for certain' that UV is *required* for many reptiles.

The rather hit and miss optimum level of UV being provided across all animals is also just as easy to get 'wrong' as not providing it/under supplementing can be. Jools original thread 'appears' to show this, in that previously 'happy/healthy' animals are now showing signs of being at less than optimum level.
I have never, ever had a Leo develop mbd in my care using oral supplementation, including many that I have hatched and raised, then kept for several years.

Your work and studies and those of others is very interesting, trust me if I felt that UV was needed I would offer it, and have/do as I feel fit.

I also have kept Timon sp outside under natural UV levels and see that they certainly seem to utilise its existence. I'm not convinced I'd see the same if my Goniurosaurus sp were kept outside, as in my experience and the literature that I have read up on, they appear to be very nocturnal and hide away in dark spots only to emerge as light fades.

Anyway, as said. Thanks for all your info and feedback! :2thumb:


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Thank you to everyone for their input - much appreciated. Lilacdragon that is a lot of info you have given and many thanks for joining the thread. I will try to upload some pics of the set-ups tomorrow.

I had hoped to have changed to a D3 tube in one of the luminaires by now but the wrong tube has been sent to me. The lizards are still acting the same and hiding away at the cooler / shadier side of the vivs. I really don't think it is the weather as all the juveniles are acting "normally". I am hoping to rig up some temporary D3 6% tubes tomorrow but these are only 2 foot ones. I have a strong suspicion that the Timon are missing the bright visible spectrum light that my old 12% + 2% T8s gave out. No, I don't have any PROOF of this Gregg - just the gut instinct of 30+ years of reptile keeping. Once I have made the changes I'll report back. 

Once again, thanks for all the input. It has developed into a most interesting thread with much food for thought.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> Here's what I see as John from Arcadia's dilemma....
> I'm very lucky that I've never been tempted to promote or sell any product, and I steer well clear of it, because it means people don't automatically assume that if I state my belief about something (like a lamp or a vitamin supplement) that I must have some sort of ulterior motive, like product advertising....
> I think John from Arcadia suffers a lot from this. If he states his beliefs about, for example, eliminating MBD (as came up earlier in this thread) immediately someone jumps in and says he is trying to sell something. Actually I think John has a point - I think decent provision of suitable levels of UVB could largely eliminate MBD in one generation. I say this because I have never heard of a single case of a wild animal ever being found with MBD.. and no-one puts D3 powder on their dinner LOL.
> 
> Frances


I really dont see this as the problem here at all. It is not John's advocation of UV in the fight against MBD. Nothing that broad would be overly problematic, as everyone here would also like to eliminate MBD. The technology to do this is already present and has been for quite some time, whether UV or supplemental. This 'innovation' has been experienced by keepers who have not had any animals with MBD for decades. Keepers with MBD problems are simply uninformed, it is not some lack in technology that hinders them.

In fact, if that were what John was saying, then this thread would have ended before it began. Instead what he seems to say is that Arcadia T5s are the only responsible way to keep every reptile from getting MBD, and that is where it becomes advertising. You are well aware of the different strengths of the various bulbs and systems. Would you recommend the T5s for every single enclosure and every single reptile? So far Ive never seen John recommend anything other than that...well except when he mentions to use the Arcadia basking lamps in conjunction with the T5s. In my opinion that is irresponsible and unwarranted, and can only really be explained by either someone who is simply advertising, or someone who does understand the exact uses and parameters of the technology present.

This thread began when an already suitable UVB system was in place, but because everyone said T5s were the best, the OP switched to the T5s. As an immediate and obvious result, the reptiles became unhealthy. Rather than admit that possibly the T5s were not the best choice for that particular set up, John tried to make up some other random and rather grasping ideas instead. That is where we took issue. 

So going back to the original question on this thread Frances, would you recommend that the person take out the high output T5s and return to the perfectly acceptable T8 UVB lights that were present, or would you agree with John's assessment that it was because of barometric pressures or 'new kit syndrome'?


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

I would have to say downgrade^

Seems a little too much for a Leo IMO.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Maybe I am nit picking.... I do that in my spare time.
> :2thumb:
> 
> :lol2:
> ...



YIps...Sal is always picking at those nits he has :lol2:






I told you before Sal...go to the chemist, you can get shampoo for that now....deeeem boy.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Ieuan7 said:


> I would have to say downgrade^
> 
> Seems a little too much for a Leo IMO.


This thread was originally about my Timon lepidus, not Leos :2thumb:


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Frances can lizards see ultraviolet light?


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

jools said:


> This thread was originally about my Timon lepidus, not Leos :2thumb:


A mistake that comes with 22 pages of Jargon! My bad


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

nicnet said:


> YIps...Sal is always picking at those nits he has :lol2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



pish posh your giving me an itchy head just thinking about it. :lol2:


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> Here's what I see as John from Arcadia's dilemma....
> I'm very lucky that I've never been tempted to promote or sell any product, and I steer well clear of it, because it means people don't automatically assume that if I state my belief about something (like a lamp or a vitamin supplement) that I must have some sort of ulterior motive, like product advertising....
> I think John from Arcadia suffers a lot from this. If he states his beliefs about, for example, eliminating MBD (as came up earlier in this thread) immediately someone jumps in and says he is trying to sell something. Actually I think John has a point - I think decent provision of suitable levels of UVB could largely eliminate MBD in one generation. I say this because I have never heard of a single case of a wild animal ever being found with MBD.. and no-one puts D3 powder on their dinner LOL.


Not every thread needs to turn into an advert.

Threads that John gets into always seem to go in one direction and that is why you should buy his product plus a link to the arcadia site.

Here is an example.

A thread starts like this....



kinners00 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I'm keeping a baby redfoot tortoise in a vivarium at the minute with a standard UVA/UVB bulb and 60watt heat bulb but I was thinking it would be more beneficial to the tort to have a MVB but I'm worried that it would make the viv far too hot so that's where the habistat comes in. So obviously the habistat controller dims the bulb to control the heat but surely in the doing that, it would be limiting the amount of UV output which makes this switch to this type of bulb pointless. Just wondering could I get your thoughts on this please?


And ends like this...



Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes there is good advice here,
> 
> ...


Another example...

Starts like this...



blabble182 said:


> Hey all I've had a trio of madagascan iguanas for a while now and wondered if anyone has bred them in captivity ? These three are wild caught
> 
> image
> 
> ...


And John works in his advert...



Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi, kidney stones :-( not nice get well soon!
> 
> They are a real nice species and as I said one that deserves to do well!
> 
> ...


There is just a continual train of adverts and it gets quite annoying.



lilacdragon2007 said:


> I advocate use of suitable UV lighting because I think it offers multiple benefits to all living things, that they can't get from anything else.
> 
> Frances


So we are still no closer to an answer for my question. Are properly supplemented CAPTIVE reptiles like snakes, varanids, geckos, less healthy than CAPTIVE reptiles that are offered UVB?


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

Gregg M said:


> Not every thread needs to turn into an advert.
> 
> Threads that John gets into always seem to go in one direction and that is why you should buy his product plus a link to the arcadia site.


Don't get me wrong I don't dislike you and you often have a lot to bring to the party but your really starting to bore me now and I'm positive I'm not the only one. We get it already. You don't like the way John goes about things but he isn't going to change no matter how many times you mention it over and over. 

That first example is just a laugh to be honest. Obviously he's going to say that the proposed idea (an mvb) isn't suitable as it isn't. So he offered an alternative product and solution, as he should, he's obviously going to recommend one of his products and he posted a link so the OP can read further in to photogradients. There is nothing wrong with that reply and if anyone else posted similar you wouldn't think twice. 

I've held back saying anything multiple times on this thread mainly because I just couldn't be bothered with it but its really irritating me, you have posted countless times but every post is the same dribble. Get over it already. Its a forum he can plug his product as and when he likes, its up to the OP to do the research and make the final decision.


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## graham40 (Dec 19, 2011)

tomcannon said:


> Don't get me wrong I don't dislike you and you often have a lot to bring to the party but your really starting to bore me now and I'm positive I'm not the only one. We get it already. You don't like the way John goes about things but he isn't going to change no matter how many times you mention it over and over.
> 
> That first example is just a laugh to be honest. Obviously he's going to say that the proposed idea (an mvb) isn't suitable as it isn't. So he offered an alternative product and solution, as he should, he's obviously going to recommend one of his products and he posted a link so the OP can read further in to photogradients. There is nothing wrong with that reply and if anyone else posted similar you wouldn't think twice.
> 
> I've held back saying anything multiple times on this thread mainly because I just couldn't be bothered with it but its really irritating me, you have posted countless times but every post is the same dribble. Get over it already. Its a forum he can plug his product as and when he likes, its up to the OP to do the research and make the final decision.


^^ this
Greg I don't think we have ever spoken but I have read your advice several times. What you bring to the community is brilliant but i have also seen you personally attack John several times. 
What people buy is completely up to them. I did a lot of research into uv and decided to buy the t5 system. It's a revolution in reptile and uv technology. 
As is your SIM product. I have done a lot of research into breeding and decided to buy YOUR product, but think mate some people might think, and I'm sure people do. Why do I need to change to that, vermiculite works perfectly fine so there is no need to invest in this new technology. 
As your product and johns its new and it's change, some people might not like that some do. If you are asking people to change the way they incubate eggs why are you so against the idea of providing uv lighting. This is a genuine question

Graham


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## Barlow (Sep 23, 2010)

graham40 said:


> ^^ this
> Greg I don't think we have ever spoken but I have read your advice several times. What you bring to the community is brilliant but i have also seen you personally attack John several times.
> What people buy is completely up to them. I did a lot of research into uv and decided to buy the t5 system. It's a revolution in reptile and uv technology.
> As is your SIM product. I have done a lot of research into breeding and decided to buy YOUR product, but think mate some people might think, and I'm sure people do. Why do I need to change to that, vermiculite works perfectly fine so there is no need to invest in this new technology.
> ...


The two most popular mediums for incubation are perlite and vermiculite. Perlite dust is harmful when breathed in and vermiculite is harvested from places where asbestos naturally occurs. Gregg knows this yet you don't see him wade his way into every incubation thread plugging his products.


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## TommyR (May 15, 2012)

Which is upto Gregg wether he does or not, just Ignore it if you don''t like it in my eyes. Advertising is how some people make money wether by billboards, posters, tv whatever.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Barlow said:


> you don't see him wade his way into every incubation thread plugging his products.


Just to put the record straight - John did not "wade in" to this thread, I asked him by PM if he would comment as this product is manufactured by his company. 

Also to put the record straight, I feel my choice of thread title could have been better. I am not disappointed with the luminaires themselves - I think in the right circumstances they are a fantastic product - just disappointed in my Timons reaction to them.


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## rep-it (Aug 26, 2007)

This thread seems to of changed from the effect of a t5 on one lizard to is uv necessary. is uv needed for certain lizards will be a debate for sometime.

i personally do not see why the t5 would cause the animal in question to hide, maybe it is something else like the disturbance of when it was fitted, was the animal removed before the t5 was fitted? might sound stupid but iv heard many times of people that have not removed the animal then started drilling, hammering etc, and if the animal was removed maybe it was stressed when moved.

I personally do not see John plugging hes product, i believe he is very helpful, he gets asked hundreds of times over and over about silly things like where to place the light and how to fit it and he is always friendly and helps out.

I use both the t5 and the sim containers and think they are both great products, i could breed animals without the t5 and i can hatch eggs in a takeaway tub but i choose to use these products.


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## graham40 (Dec 19, 2011)

Barlow said:


> The two most popular mediums for incubation are perlite and vermiculite. Perlite dust is harmful when breathed in and vermiculite is harvested from places where asbestos naturally occurs. Gregg knows this yet you don't see him wade his way into every incubation thread plugging his products.


I spend a lot of time on this forum (it drives my misses mad). I have never seem John wade his way into a tread if its about uv he advises to the best of his ability and then advises what product in the Arcadia range is best suted to the particular situation I have never seen him say Arcadia is the only way if you don't use it your not providing the best cre you can for your reptile. 
Trust me I no all about asbestos and what it does. 
I now work on aircraft. I work at one of the biggest most respected companies in the uk and Europe. When people who have aircraft ask me questions I tell them and when they tell me things about their engineers. I will advise them if what that particular engineer is doing is the job being done properly or not or if they are being over charged. (My dad has an airplane so I see things from the owners side and the engineers side)
As said this has gone massively off topic and seems that some people just seem to be stuck in the dark ages. Technology evolves and makes things better. Make the most of it is what I say


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

colinm said:


> Frances can lizards see ultraviolet light?


WOW! Colin, there's a wonderful world to explore in that direction. You'll LOVE this.... :2thumb:
But this thread is not the best place to start the journey. Do you want to start a new one? 



> *Gregg:* So we are still no closer to an answer for my question. Are properly supplemented CAPTIVE reptiles like snakes, varanids, geckos, less healthy than CAPTIVE reptiles that are offered UVB?


"more healthy" and "less healthy" ... those terms are very vague. What aspects do you wish to consider? 

There is clear evidence for many vertebrates - reptiles, birds and mammals - of the beneficial effects of adequate D3 status (*however obtained*) for many, many aspects of health, and also reproduction; *and* evidence that adequate and appropriate lighting (which in reptiles, includes UVA) has additional beneficial effects on behaviour and physiology.

There is no clear evidence yet as to whether, *if we are only talking about vitamin D3*, there is a difference between adequately supplemented captive reptiles and those under suitable UVB for that species. 
Just as,_ *if we only talk about vitamin D3*_, there is no evidence that there is a difference in health benefits to humans, between eating D3 supplements and sun exposure. 

There _are_ differences between species in the effectiveness of oral D3. I maintain that this is because in nature, UVB light is the natural source for almost all vertebrate life on earth. 

My point is not that "everything needs UVB", but that "UV lighting can supply vitamin D3 *and* has additional benefits, both psychologically and physiologically". 
So I conclude that for the average hobbyist keeping a small number of reptiles in a naturalistic setting, then providing suitable UV lighting (as long as it is done properly) is best for the animal.



> *JARich:* So going back to the original question on this thread Frances, would you recommend that the person take out the high output T5s and return to the perfectly acceptable T8 UVB lights that were present, or would you agree with John's assessment that it was because of barometric pressures or 'new kit syndrome'?


I would not recommend either. I'm not being vague or evasive.... I'm saying this because I do not know enough about Jools' situation to make any simple recommendations at all.
I don't know what Jools original T8 Reptisun 10.0 + 2.0 combo OR the new T5 D3+ 12%UVB set-up are/were providing in the way of UVB, or visible light. Nor do I know what heating or other lighting she was using, nor the position of any of these lamps relative to the lizards and their basking areas and hides. Nor the temperature gradients, which would also have been changed with the addition of a T5.
Nor am I familiar with that species, let alone Jools' animals with their individual behavioural differences.

Because I'm a curious person and like doing research, I've done a bit on _Timon lepidus_ this afternoon.
They appear to inhabit a wide range across Spain; some of their habitat overlaps _Testudo graeca graeca_ in Murcia. There, the moist green landscape with bright gentle sun in April becomes a dried out wasteland under a burning sun by June. (I took a couple of blurred photos of a T. lepidus I saw myself when there looking for tortoises last May.) So the lizards will be familiar with a wide range of light, heat and UV depending on season...
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocellated_Lizard_
And they definitely bask in full sun
webpages.icav.up.pt/Pessoas/neftali/ITCthesis/ThesisFinald-Paco.doc
They appear to be kept successfully in vivaria under a range of very different conditions; there is a lovely website in German showing one using two very bright metal halides, one for visible light and one for UVB, here:
Terrarium
or in English:
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-lepidus.de%2Fterrarium.html
Interestingly, in the wild like most temperate species, they are dormant all through the winter until about April, and so probably have strong inbuilt responses to light intensity and daylength, as well as temperature, to set their circannual rhythms to. This could result in changes in behaviour as a result of lighting changes:
Biotropics - Timon lepidus (DAUDIN, 1802) - Ocellated Lizard; housing, feeding, breeding etc.


> "In nature, the Ocellated Lizard goes dormant for 3-4 months. This period starts from around October and lasts until March/April. During this period, the temperature is at 4-7 °C. The soil in the winter container should be high enough to enable burying. BANIA (2002) mentions that her lizards rest for a period of one month and mate immediately afterwards. ZAUNER (2002) reports on a resting period of 2 months at temperatures of about 15 °C and switched-off lights. HAHN & FENSKE (1994) talk about a resting period of 4 months at 6-12 °C. Therefore, they transfer the reptiles into a tub, which is half-filled with a mixture of river sand and forest soil. The container is then darkened with a blanket. The substrate is held slightly damp by weekly spraying. RUTSCHKE (1989) reports on winter dormancy of 2-3 months for adult animals and of 6 weeks for semi-adults at a temperature of 6-11 °C. As a dormancy box he uses an old aquarium with a gauze lid filled with a 20 cm high layer of potting soil, moss and pieces of bark. He also keeps the substrate moist by weekly spraying.
> In nature, the mating season starts from April to May. In captivity, ZAUNER (2002) observed pairings in mid-March, which lasted 5-9 minutes. HAHN & FENSKE (1994) report over a similarly long copulation while RUTSCHKE (1989) mentions up to 30 minutes. Almost exactly one month afterwards, the eggs are laid."


Obviously, the change in lighting has affected Jools' lizards.
But changing from a Reptisun 10 +2 combo to a T5-HO is a big change. You can't compare UVB from a Reptisun 10 to UVB from a T5-HO. If they are mounted the same distance from the reptile, the Reptisun 10 is providing UVB in what I like to call "the shade method" - requiring low-level UVB like outdoor shade, over much of the habitat occupied by the reptile all day. Whereas a T5-HO in a reflector at close range is providing UVB by what I call the "sunbeam" method - high-intensity UVB which needs to be sited over just the brightly lit basking zone, like a patch of sunlight. 
I would expect the lizards to see the difference.
I do not know what their response would be, but I would guess that it would depend on a lot of other factors involving the position of other lights, heat, etc...

Have I answered the questions?
I'm sorry but I gotta go. Need coffee...!
Frances


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I also have to perk in in Johns defence and say I too have asked him to comment on some threads and on many occasions when I have asked him for his advice via PM on his products or which would be the best to use, he has not always recomended the most expensive, or the highest output lamps, just that the fact I decided to use a certain prodcut and he has advised me to get the best out of it.

I think in the instance ontil more is known everyone should just agree to disagree and move on, there are obviously a great deal many varibles of keeping, on a forum as large as this there is bound to be opinions that conflict, and clash, it would be a pretty boring world if we were all the same. 

I don't see why keepers can't disagree in one thread and share common ground in another. : victory:


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Frances perhaps another thread would be best on my question.However,why I asked it was because there was an inference by some of the detractors that the increased U.V.B. from the T5s was the reason that the lizards were hiding away.Obviously if the lizards cannot see ultraviolet light this cannot be the case.

With reference to your posts about Eyed Lizards you are correct in what you are saying but many people on here and in Germany and Holland keep them outside all year.They certainly do better outside and display a wider range of colours and more natural behaviour, which I am sure is due to the better light and ultraviolet levels.Many "green" Lacertids when kept indoors under artificial lights(no matter which type) tend to go a torquoise blue but if you put them outside in unfiltered sunlight they go a natural emerald green.This must be due to the quality of the sunlight as the diet is more or less the same,except for a few wild insects falling into the enclosures.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

tomcannon said:


> Don't get me wrong I don't dislike you and you often have a lot to bring to the party but your really starting to bore me now and I'm positive I'm not the only one. We get it already. You don't like the way John goes about things but he isn't going to change no matter how many times you mention it over and over.
> .


Hey Tom,
Thanks for your honesty and I respect your opinion even if you think I am boring and repetative. LOL.



graham40 said:


> ^^ this
> Greg I don't think we have ever spoken but I have read your advice several times. What you bring to the community is brilliant but i have also seen you personally attack John several times.
> What people buy is completely up to them. I did a lot of research into uv and decided to buy the t5 system. It's a revolution in reptile and uv technology.
> As is your SIM product. I have done a lot of research into breeding and decided to buy YOUR product, but think mate some people might think, and I'm sure people do. Why do I need to change to that, vermiculite works perfectly fine so there is no need to invest in this new technology.
> ...


Graham, we have not spoken but now we are. It is a pleasure.:2thumb:
Personal attacks and me voicing my opinion of his sales tactics and overall reptile knowledge are two different things. I know, I can try to word things better bt I just write what I feel. Some people like and respect me for it and a few hate me because of it. LOL.

I do not deny that Arcadia lighting is top notch. It is a quality product and does what it says. It provides more, stronger UV. What I am say is, it is not needed for every reptile in every collection. It is not needed to keep your reptiles healthy. It has not proven to aid in fertility or making more viable offspring. It is the hyped up marketing that is the issue.

Anyway, there are people who are not willing to buy my product. That is fine. I have helped people with incubation issues who do not use my product by offering them information on how to improve on their current method. I certainly believe that my product is a much better way to incubate, (I have not used traditional methods since 2007) but I can not see going to every incubation thread and posting a link to my website. I also do not make claims that have not already been proven.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> WOW! Colin, there's a wonderful world to explore in that direction. You'll LOVE this.... :2thumb:
> But this thread is not the best place to start the journey. Do you want to start a new one?
> 
> "more healthy" and "less healthy" ... those terms are very vague. What aspects do you wish to consider?
> ...




Going by some of the points Frances made here regarding light intensity at different times of the year on those species, then add to that the total dip in barometric pressure we've had here lately. I wonder if its possible that the added T5 at this time of the year has simply thrown Jools's gecks completly out of synch with their 'weather patterns'.

They have in essence gone from 'autumn' lighting to 'mid summer' lighting in the blink of an eye and we all know it takes a bit of adjusting if we go from winter here to a summer holiday destination.

I'd suggest trying to 'super gradient' that lighting for a bit and see if it makes a difference.

put a mesh over part of the lighting on one side, and leave a small 1/4 area on the one side with the full whack t5 available. In essense providing dappled light mid viv and full spectrum light on the far side. 

If lizzy decides to go play in the dappled light and avoids the full light altogether then it may be that the t5 is just too much for it. If on the other hand he gets used to the dappled light and moves over to the more intense part then again its an indication that he wants the higher UV output but only in small doses.


You could use different size mesh on each 1/4 to offer different intensity and see how he reacts.

Of course you'd not want to chew him around too much at the moment so not sure on an easy way to do it without taking him out.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

I think enough information has been provided to SUGGEST the T5 is abit strong for the OP's needs.

For all I know it might not be, but hopefully between myself, and a few others debate of UV in general, I hope it has helped better understand not just if UV is needed in general, but of it's qualities/side effects -and the amount of exposure that differs from reptile to reptile.

Again, can't say 100% the T5 is responsible, but there's a good chance of it playing a hand...It's ahead of the competition for a reason.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

We still have no proper estimate of what level of UVB the Timon are getting in their set-up, guys! (Or heat and light gradients...)
Until we have, it's a bit premature to say _anything_ about whether there is "too much UVB"....



> They have in essence gone from 'autumn' lighting to 'mid summer' lighting in the blink of an eye and we all know it takes a bit of adjusting if we go from winter here to a summer holiday destination.


Something like this sounds a distinct possibility. But please let Jools find out a bit more about her lizards' exposure before taking her set-up apart for her! :whistling2:

Frances


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

^ Yeah suppose your right mate.

But if it is the UV, then is doesn't matter about other variables as it will still be the wrong UV and the symptoms would still be present.

Jools seems pretty switched on, so I doubt there's going to be much wrong if anything with the set-up.

But wow did we all take the LONG way around getting a proper answer for him/her :lol2:


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> We still have no proper estimate of what level of UVB the Timon are getting in their set-up, guys! (Or heat and light gradients...)
> Until we have, it's a bit premature to say _anything_ about whether there is "too much UVB"....
> 
> 
> ...


Come on Fraces,
Do you actually believe that the lizards are going through an "adjustment period"? That is just rediculous. You know as well as I do that reptiles go from brumation to full out basking with no adjustment needed.

These animals only went off their feed and stopped basking when the T5 was installed. That is the only variable that can be causing this issue.

Personally, I would not be messing around with the T5 if it has caused my animals to go off food and become inactive. I would have gone back to what was workng before hand days ago. Sometimes that saying "if it aint broke, dont fix it" is a good thing to go by.


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## solarice (Mar 12, 2013)

As it's been a few more days since this thread started has there been any change?

It was mentioned the light levels actually appear lower than usual, maybe that's confusing them? (just to contradict the posts above mine)...but there's quite a few variables really and only one person who has the ability to tinker and knows the setup well enough.

Gregg_M i don't think belief comes into it, its just a hypothesis.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to post about my set-ups.










The set-ups are 48x20x20" vivs. They have a statted, tight beam 60W spot at one side as a basking lamp. Multiple hides and climbing branches. The temp at the basking spot (which they can also get underneath for shaded warmth) is 40-42C. Cool side room temp - about 25C at this time of year.

Previous lighting: 3foot Arcadia 12% T8 at the warmer side of the viv on the roof just behind the front plate (front top corner). 3foot 2% T8 running along the back top corner.

Present lighting: 3 foot Arcadia 12% T5 luminaire in same position as previous 12% tube.










Distance from present UV tube to basking spot is 17 inches. The way that the branches are set up means that they can also UV bask without heat. 

If anyone can suggest how I might improve this then I'm all ears. I don't have a solar meter but I feel this would be a very good investment - can anyone recommend a decent one please.

The lizards have actually been "out and about" a bit more today and a couple of them have eaten which is good. This MAY be because they are getting used to the new system or it MAY be that the sun has been shining into the rep room - increasing the visible light in the vivs. If, as has been suggested by the Timon keepers on here, their behaviour can be considered more natural now, then great. They go outside during the summer and I suppose the way they're behaving ATM is a little like their behaviour when they first go out.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

Gregg, 



> That is just rediculous. You know as well as I do that reptiles go from brumation to full out basking with no adjustment needed.


But that IS a huge adjustment. Going from brumation to full out basking is an amazing adjustment in behaviour!

If you re-read Nicnet's statement you will see that he has actually said exactly what you are saying too: 
"They have in essence gone from 'autumn' lighting to 'mid summer' lighting in the blink of an eye".

The "adjustment" has indeed occurred, and occurred instantaneously, which is exactly what Nicnet says. Just like going from brumation to full-out basking..... or from full-out basking to aestivation.....maybe?
And both Nicnet and I are in agreement that it was the sudden change in lighting which has caused the change in behaviour. There is nothing ridiculous about anything either of us has posted.

Reptiles will respond extremely rapidly to a change in weather conditions. If it is very bright, or very cold, or very windy, or very hot, they will change their behaviour appropriately. Likewise as spring changes to summer they will change their basking times and feeding responses.
Many temperate reptiles change from monophasic basking patterns (out throughout most of the day) to biphasic patterns (only basking early in the morning then staying under cover right through mid-day until sometimes undertaking a shorter secondary basking period in late afternoon) with the change from Spring to Summer. This would also alter their feeding patterns. Maybe this is one possible explanation of what Jools' lizards are doing now. 
Ceasing to bask and feed for a few weeks might actually be a positive adaptive response in these lizards, to a perceived change in season. 

Someone who keeps these lizards out of doors might be able to advise us on what sort of basking and feeding patterns are normal at this time of year?

But all our theories are still guesswork, and we still don't have any data about intensity of UVB, extra heat, basking zones etc, as I have said before. _(Edit: oops! Jools just posted this. I'll get my Excel charts out!  )_
As for whether this change in behaviour will persist, or whether the lizards will go back to their earlier behaviour pattern, I have no idea. 

Best wishes
Frances


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Gregg M said:


> Personally, I would not be messing around with the T5 if it has caused my animals to go off food and become inactive. I would have gone back to what was workng before hand days ago. Sometimes that saying "if it aint broke, dont fix it" is a good thing to go by.


Gregg - with hindsight I probably wouldn't have changed the lighting - and I may yet change it back. The saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" can be very true. But it can also mean that we don't advance. Just because something isn't broke doesn't mean we can't improve on it - we never know unless we try.

This species is very sensitive to light conditions and photoperiod. I can quite readily see that changing the lighting after 4 years on the previous system could easily cause some stress and I wanted to allow some time for them to possibly adjust.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> We still have no proper estimate of what level of UVB the Timon are getting in their set-up, guys! (Or heat and light gradients...)
> Until we have, it's a bit premature to say _anything_ about whether there is "too much UVB"....
> 
> 
> ...



lol I think Jools knows me well enough now to know that I tend to brainstorm idea's. She will pick up on points and if it suits will fit it into her existing system or modify it to suit if she thinks its something that may work.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

OK, right, this is very interesting.

I take all my lamp measurements at 2-inch intervals so I can only give readings at 16" or 18". I've chosen 16" because we were concerned about too-high levels of light and UVB, rather than too-low.
I also only have test results for 24-inch T8s and 22-inch T5s, so these are really very crude estimates for your longer lamps, but they will give some idea of the changes that have occurred.

Jools, the photos are great! The vivaria look to be a lovely size and there are loads of areas for the lizards to shelter and find heat and light gradients.

The little 60-watt reflector bulb is right up one end, creating a very distinct heat gradient. However, I've tested a range of bulbs like that and they only create a very small basking zone. Wide flood versions may create an area only about 4 - 6 inches in diameter receiving sufficient infrared for basking; narrow spot versions may create only a tiny patch a couple of inches across. The light and infrared are restricted to this "spot" and a narrow beam may give readings of 8,000 - 9,000 lux but a flood version may spread out the beam and only provide 1,500 - 2,000 lux across the basking zone. (Sunlight easily reaches 100,000 lux on a clear day; daylight in cloudy weather can be 40,000 - 50,000 lux.) Of course there is no UVB from a filament lamp and only a very small amount of UVA.
So this is definitely a low-light, cool set-up. A winter set-up for these lizards when not brumating.

Let's look at the original fluorescent lights.

I've assumed the 2% T8 is a *ZooMed NatureSun/ Reptisun 2.0.* These emit negligible UVB; at 16 inches, zero with my Solarmeter 6.5 UV Index meter and 1 uW/cm2 with my Solarmeter 6.2. (If it was an Arcadia Natural Sunlight then there is more UV but at 16" even with a reflector, you'd only get 16 uW/cm2, UVI 0.2. Hardly anything) But the lux is good for a T8 tube: a brand new NatureSun gave me about 470 lux with no reflector, 1,170 lux with an Arcadia clip-on reflector.
Then we have the *ZooMed ReptiSun 10.0*. After 100 hours use (about 10 days in a viv) the readings at 16" were:
No reflector: UV Index 0.6, 300 lux. Very low UV, very low visible light.
With reflector: UV Index 1.2, 750 lux. Still low UV but now into the range that might suit an occasional or partial-sun basker if used as it is here - what I call the "shade" method, with the UVB a long way above the lizards, and not restricted to the basking zone. Very low visible light.
*So combined illumination for the two tubes: very roughly 770 lux with no reflectors or 1,920 lux with reflectors on both. *

Now we take out the two T8s and replace them with one *Arcadia T5 D3+ 12%UVB in the Arcadia luminiere.*
At 16", when brand new, I had readings of UV Index 2.6, 1,530 lux.
After 100 hours after the normal "burning-in", the readings are *UV Index 2.3 and 1,360 lux.*
If Jools was using reflectors on both T8 tubes, the visible light is reduced significantly. 
It was dim before, but now it is even gloomier in there. I have taken readings of 1,700 lux outdoors at the point of sunrise.
But for the winter quarters of temperate lizards that are not out and about much, I'm guessing that probably isn't too bad. Readings in the shade are often around those levels.

The UV has approximately doubled, though. 
It is still only UVI 2.3 at the closest point to the lizard. That is the sort of level you'd get in moderate shade at midday on a sunny day in summer, or... (looking at my notebook) 3hrs after sunrise out in the open on a hazy but clear, cool day (16th May 2012) in Almeria, Spain. (It went up to 9.5 when the sun was at its highest point in the sky that day).
I would not expect a UVI of 2.3 to cause any problem at all to a sun-basking lizard that's evolved to cope with, and probably avoid, a UVI of over 9.0 in its native habitat. But the combination of increased UVB and reduced visible light is a significant change.

As the lizards, obviously, noticed!

I'm glad they're out and about and feeding again, Jools. I'm sure the coming of Spring sunlight will make a lot of difference... to all of us!

Best wishes

Frances

ps. Jools, the UV meter that has the closest sensitivity response to the vitamin D3 action spectrum, (i.e., the wavelengths we want to measure, in our lighting systems and in sunlight) is the Solarmeter 6.5 UV Index meter. Welcome to Solartech You can order them direct from the USA.
Don't be tempted by any cheap suntanners' UVI meter. Most are calibrated to UVA not UVB and give hopeless responses, especially to artificial light sources.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Got a headache from reading all that^

Literally took a halfway brake :bash: lol

Good results/findings...The quest continues


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Frances would double T5 tubes automatically double the lux level?


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Frances - bless you a thousand times. That post is just SO helpful, makes absolute sense and confirms my suspicions. (sorry forgot to specify that all my T8s had reflectors). 

I KNOW that these lizards should be able to easily "cope" with the ammount of UVb they are now recieving. T5s are meant to be bright - perhaps they are in some spectrums - but they give out nowhere near as much visible light as my old system and I have suspected for the last few days that this may be the problem. The sun has been shining into the rep room today and I have noticed a bit more activity.

So - best way to rectify? Do I re-install the T8 2% tubes with reflectors to run alongside the Luminaires? A wider beam basking light? Halogens? LEDs?

Many, many thanks once again Frances for all your time and trouble.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

Hi, Colin.

Yes.
Two lumieres mounted side by side fitted with identical tubes would produce double of everything. 

A double set (i.e., units that hold 2 tubes in one fixture) might not, though, because the reflectors are crucial in determining the output. 
Look at any tube in a reflector (from a safe distance, to protect your eyes) and you'll see the tube plus one, two or even three reflections depending on shape of aluminium strip. In T8 Arcadia reflectors you can see one "extra lamp" if you'll excuse the expression, in their T5 reflectors, you can see two.
Each reflection has, effectively, an "output" below the lamp unit. 

So if a combo unit puts the tubes very close together, or the reflectors have a different shape, or whatever, you almost certainly won't see the same number of reflections/ amount of reflected light and UVB as from two independent units.
Whether it's more or less, who can say without trying it? 

Best wishes
Frances


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> We still have no proper estimate of what level of UVB the Timon are getting in their set-up, guys! (Or heat and light gradients...)
> Until we have, it's a bit premature to say _anything_ about whether there is "too much UVB"....
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Frances. You might have missed what I said earlier on. A few days ago in central Portugal (within the natural range of _Timon lepidus_) I got a UVB reading of 292 microwatts per sq cm (during sunny weather). In the last few days I have recorded 52 and 71 microwatts per sq cm, on cloudy days in the rain. I have the same unit Jools has, and the UV levels it provides is impressive, but nothing like this high. 

I can tell you from personal experience that _Timon lepidus_ are enthusiastic baskers


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

jools said:


> So - best way to rectify? Do I re-install the T8 2% tubes with reflectors to run alongside the Luminaires? A wider beam basking light? Halogens? LEDs?


Well... if your little guys are going outside soon, and we get some nice Spring weather, why spend a whole lot on new stuff for a few weeks? Yes, my first thought, too, was, you might just like to put the T8 2% tubes back in.... that would boost the visible light. And you've got good UVB levels from the T5s, for their "early spring wake-up" I reckon. 
If you do re-instate the 2% lamps, you could try having them come on half an hour before the luminiere, and going off half an hour afterwards. Or if you want to go even further with a "dawn and dusk", have the golden basking lamp come on first, then the T8, then the lumiere. And reverse for nightfall. 

You're by far the best person to judge the basking lamps you need. If you want a much wider beam then there's some very illuminating stuff being explored on the Tortoise Trust forum recently. Jump into the middle of this thread here:
View topic - Basking light experiments • tortoisetrustforum.org
You can get these in several different wattages. But they are chunky units, get hot and need lots of ventilation. I've just created a new lighting set-up for one of my bearded dragon vivs, I cut a hole in the roof and put in a wide mesh panel, the lamp rests on top of the mesh so the fixture is open to the air and mainly radiant heat (infrared) rather than hot air is going into the viv.
It's just an experiment. I'm pleased with it so far, but it's early days yet.

PAR38 Flood incandescent bulbs (the sort used outdoors in garden lamps) are what I use in some other set-ups, for slightly wider beams. For species that want an absolute flood of really strong sunlight, like chuckwallas, I love my Iwasaki EYE Color Arc 150watt PAR36 6500K metal halides, but they're really not easy to get hold of, and need special electronic ballasts as well. You can sometimes get them from a reef tank specialist supplier.



jools said:


> Many, many thanks once again Frances for all your time and trouble.


You're welcome.

Frances


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## rep-it (Aug 26, 2007)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> Hi, Colin.
> 
> Yes.
> Two lumieres mounted side by side fitted with identical tubes would produce double of everything.
> ...


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Thank you Frances. I will re-install the 2% tubes - who knows when it's going to be warm enough for them to go outside! The females will be laying soon and I want them to have optimum conditions. I'll also look into the PAR38s. I'm not keen to be installing external lighting systems - not easy in a stack LOL.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

Dragon Farm said:


> Hi Frances. You might have missed what I said earlier on. A few days ago in central Portugal (within the natural range of _Timon lepidus_) I got a UVB reading of 292 microwatts per sq cm (during sunny weather). In the last few days I have recorded 52 and 71 microwatts per sq cm, on cloudy days in the rain. I have the same unit Jools has, and the UV levels it provides is impressive, but nothing like this high.
> 
> I can tell you from personal experience that _Timon lepidus_ are enthusiastic baskers


Nice readings!
292 uW/cm2 of sunlight is equivalent to about UVI 6. 
52 uW/cm2 in the middle of the day would be about UVI 0.5 and 71 uW/cm2 would be about UVI 0.8.
On 15th March it rained here all day. I got 73 uW/cm2, UVI 0.8, at 1pm and 48 uW/cm2, UVI 0.5, at 2.30pm. Looks like Wales and Portugal are both having grotty weather! :lol2:

UV measurements can tie people in knots, it IS confusing. Because of spectral differences, it's not possible to match microwatts per sq. cm (uW/cm2) readings from sunlight and from lamps. That's why I prefer to use the UV Index. The sun and lamp readings are not perfectly equivalent either, but it's closer.
Are your wild _Timon lepidus_ out and about yet? 

Frances


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Ok so see if I got that right.


While the UV has increased, the actual light has decreased. Meaning they have gone from 'autumn lighting' to 'winter lighting' in essence?

So solution would be, to add in the 2% sunglows to increase the visible light and bring them into 'spring lighting'.

So while the visible lighting would then be about the same as with the T8/2% combo the actual uv would be higher with the T5/2% combo?

So while the T5's are better for them with the higher uv, they reacted to the 'loss' of lighting and could possibly have been retreating from a 'dim miserable' day.


I get that right?


lol so if that was the case, it would mean that rather than being too bright for them, the T5's are actually not bright enough for this species and they need the extra lighting added and more visible light?


hmm I wonder if the same could hold true for beardies.....I might test that at some point and add a sunglow to one of my beardie vivs. See how they get along. Tube not due to be changed till June so I may do it then.


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

Hi, Nicnet.

To start off with, our theory was that maybe the UVB was too high. 
As Dragonfarm has pointed out, the UV levels in Portugal even now, as early as March, can be far higher than the T5 tube at 17 inches distance, and it seems unlikely that the UVB they are getting from the T5 has been so high as to drive them under cover. So that theory now seems less likely. 
So our next theory is: maybe... it is because the "daylight" suddenly got a lot gloomier?
It is a new possibility; made a bit more likely, too, by Jools' observation that sunlight shining into the room seemed related to a sudden increase in activity again.

So one simple thing to try, would seem to be, bringing up the light levels again by restoring the 2% tube. I wasn't thinking much more deeply than that...

The idea of Jools's lizards responding to these alterations as if they were thinking of them as "seasonal lighting" is a very attractive one but I'm afraid we simply have no idea if that is what they are doing....if it IS because of the lower visible light, it could alternatively just be a day-by-day response, the sort they'd make in the wild. "It's gone a bit gloomy today, that means there's no sun, we'll be unlikely to be able to bask well today, let's stay underground". (Wild common lizards here in Wales hardly came out last summer, because of the lack of sun....)

The lizards know what they are doing. We just watch, and wonder.... :?



> "So while the visible lighting would then be about the same as with the T8/2% combo the actual uv would be higher with the T5/2% combo?
> ....I get that right?"


Well... it's half right, but your words are in a funny order so it reads a bit odd..  
Try it this way round: 
_With the T5 UVB/T8 2% combo, the UV is higher than it was with the T8 UVB/T8 2% combo. _ 
Yes, that's correct.
_With the T5 UVB/T8 2% combo, the visible lighting would be about the same as with the T8 UVB/T8 2% combo._ 
No, that's not right, because the Arcadia T5 is brighter than the T8 Reptisun 10 it's replacing.
So if you add up the lux from the Arcadia T5 UVB/T8 2% combo you get more than you had with the Reptisun T8 UVB/T8 2% combo.

Please don't ask me, "but now will it be too bright"?
:whistling2: 
The lizards will know. They are wise creatures. :notworthy:
Compared to daylight out in the open, it is still comparatively dark in there. But maybe no darker than under a bush out there in Portugal on a grey day in early Spring...... 

Jools will tell us what the lizards do. 

Frances


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> Gregg,
> 
> But that IS a huge adjustment. Going from brumation to full out basking is an amazing adjustment in behaviour!
> 
> ...


These lizards should not be taking over a week to adjust to the lighting. I am in the strong opinion that they will not adjust to it. The only thing I think is rediculous is to suggest it was anything other than the light change that caused the issues. 



lilacdragon2007 said:


> Reptiles will respond extremely rapidly to a change in weather conditions. If it is very bright, or very cold, or very windy, or very hot, they will change their behaviour appropriately. Likewise as spring changes to summer they will change their basking times and feeding responses.


I quite understand all of that. However, in captivity, you do not want to recreate these extreme variables. Nature is harsh and reptiles go through these changes in the wild because they have no choice. Why would you want your reptiles to go through all of these extreme changes in captivity. It is not our job to replicate the wild to the fullest extent. It is our job to create a stable environment that is always optimal in order for them to thrive in our care.I agree, some things need to be somewhat replicated like thermo gradients, humidity gradients and such but can never be replicated 100%. 

Light gradients are probably the least important part of reptile husbandry. At least for the huge majority of captive reptiles. The proof of this can be seen in thousands and thousands of collections. So, if bright lighting with high UVIs are going to keep my reptiles from properly thermoregulating, it is not going in my cages. 

The thing is, and no one hs brought this up is that having such a bright light with a high UV output is most likely not the best thing to offer in a cage that has limited thermogradients. In the wild, these animals can hide from most of the UV and still bask and properly thermoregulate. UV levels will change by the hour in the wild depending on the angle of the sun. As this happens, reptiles will utilize different parts of their environment to get what they need. In a 4 foot box, this is impossible to recreate. Thats why just blasting a cage with high output UV lights all day is not the key to anything.
If the UV output is not too much for Jools lizards, why do these lizards "think" the best place to be is away from it? And please do not say they "think" there is a seasonal change going on. LOL 



lilacdragon2007 said:


> Many temperate reptiles change from monophasic basking patterns (out throughout most of the day) to biphasic patterns (only basking early in the morning then staying under cover right through mid-day until sometimes undertaking a shorter secondary basking period in late afternoon) with the change from Spring to Summer. This would also alter their feeding patterns. Maybe this is one possible explanation of what Jools' lizards are doing now.
> Ceasing to bask and feed for a few weeks might actually be a positive adaptive response in these lizards, to a perceived change in season.


I am fortunate enough to live in a temperate zone where there are a bunch of different species of reptile that live in the same area. New York is loaded with wild reptiles.

Some of these species live in my yard. Most are secretive and are hard to observe regularly. However, I have caught just about every species at different times of the day. From early morning, to high noon, to well after the sun has dropped from the sky. 

One species in particular that can be observed all day, every day are the Italian wall lizards that have invaded my area. I have over 100 individuals on my property alone. They are out and active ALL DAY. Only retreating to full cover when a person gets too close. They may not be a Timon species, however, they are closely related and they have very similar behaviors. They are out like this for the entire active season which starts in mid April and ends around October. And it happens quickly. One day there are none to be found and the next day, they are running around the cement catching crickets, flies, and any other insect they can over power.



lilacdragon2007 said:


> Someone who keeps these lizards out of doors might be able to advise us on what sort of basking and feeding patterns are normal at this time of year?


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

Gregg:

_"These lizards should not be taking over a week to adjust to the lighting."_

Maybe we are using the word "adjust" to mean different things. You may be using "adjust" to mean "go back to previous behaviour". I am not; I am using it to mean simply "behave differently in response to different stimulus". So by my definition they should not necessarily go back to where they were before.

_"Why would you want your reptiles to go through all of these extreme changes in captivity."_

I don't. I never even implied that I did. I was using these things simply as examples to demonstrate reptilian sensitivity; to say why I thought the change in lighting would have had an effect. 
I do, however, think that many reptiles, especially lizards and chelonians, have quite powerful minds and are well capable of learning and developing simple concepts. Keeping them in a "_stable environment that is always optimal_" is all very well as long as no-one interprets that to mean a sterile environment with nothing to see, nothing to do, and lighting that never goes above pre-dawn levels. 

_"Light gradients are probably the least important part of reptile husbandry."_

I totally disagree. The electromagnetic spectrum from UV to long-wavelength IR-A is possibly THE most important aspect of reptile husbandry. Reptiles are quite literally solar-powered - that is what ectothermy IS.... Every cell in their bodies responds to at least part of that spectrum. 

"_....having such a bright light with a high UV output...."_
Surely, Gregg, if we have established one thing in all this enormously long thread, it is that the light in this vivarium is neither bright nor has a high UV output!

I really think we've debated this for long enough, and covered everything we need to. Time to move on, folks! 

Frances


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> I totally disagree. The electromagnetic spectrum from UV to long-wavelength IR-A is possibly THE most important aspect of reptile husbandry. Reptiles are quite literally solar-powered - that is what ectothermy IS.... Every cell in their bodies responds to at least part of that spectrum.


Are you serious? That is not what ectothermy "IS"... Ectothermy has nothing at all to do with UV lighting. Ectotherms rely on environmental heat sources in order to metabolize efficiently because they do not have a high enough internal temperature to do so. So, no, they are not solar powered. They are heat powered just like every other living creature. The only difference is they can not generate their own heat hence the need to heat up using their environments. You can get long wavelength IR-A aka HEAT, without the use of lighting, especially UV. So, as I stated a thermogradient is much more important than a light gradient.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

A very good debate guys!

For us slow guys (Me) your differences essentially boils down to "Which is more important, heat gradient or UV gradient?" right?

If I'm right then all good...if not then don't read on lol

I think lilacdragon may have got his last bit of input in-correct about the "Solar powered" debate...but only slightly.

See heat is THE biggest decider in terms of health and activity.

But as we also know, UV can/may increase activity levels (especially in snakes so I read?more info?) and obviously is ESSENTIAL for most (Not quite all) reptiles (The others need that little amount, that the tubes are not worth the risk I.e. Over-Exposure and supplements are safer)

My original thoughts wer the UV was to high in lamens terms.

But with what LilDragon has said in regards to the level of UV exposure in Portugal has made me undecided.

I don't wish to drag you pair around circles, so feel free to overlook and continue (In a civil manner, this is a good learning curve lol)


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I am a simple person. I am going to explain my theory about this problem in simple terms for simple people like me. 

At one end of the light spectrum you have the red end of the spectrum, and beyond that infra red which we can't see. The red end is the light that warms us, especially infra red. At the other end you have blue light which is not warming, and beyond that ultra violet, which WE cannot see. 

Now I am a simple animal that does NOT rely on the sun to warm my body. Morning porridge will do the job nicely instead. Despite that just the sight of a log fire makes me feel warmer, and when I buy those compact flourescent bulbs I spend a bit more on decent ones with a 'warm white' appearance. Even us non extotherms prefer the look of a 'warmer' light' (more yellow light towards the red end of the spectrum, and less blue looking). 

Now imagine you are a lizard. You wake up in the morning and the light is very blue. You could come out and bask, but if the light seems very blue that probably means the sun isn't shining. So you risk getting eaten while you wait for the sun to come out. If the light contains more yellow red light, that means the sun is shining and basking should rapidly warm you up. 

So I believe it is possible that while the light level is probably higher than before, it might need balancing. The arcadia D3 bulbs (especially the D3 plus ones) are manufactured to give out high quantities of UV, and this might be at the expense of the red end of the spectrum. From the pictures of the viv in question it has a ceramic heater ? I tend to use normal tungsten spot lamps for my lizards light source. This certainly in combination with a decent UV lamp appears to give a nice balance of colours from each end of the spectrum. Combined they produce a light very much like sunlight to my eyes. 

So put simply the the lizards might be thinking that the sun isn't out or the weather has taken a turn for the worse after a nice warm start to the spring. Adding more yellow/red light might drastically change behaviour.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

I also am a simple person and your take on the light balance is excellent except that there are a couple of points that don't apply here: 



Dragon Farm said:


> So I believe it is possible that while the light level is probably higher than before
> 
> The overall light level (Lux) is lower than before.
> 
> ...


You are right, IMO, about the light looking cold now (to my simple eyes it does). I suggested in my very first post that possibly lack of "brightness" might be the cause of this behaviour. I will be re-installing the 2% tubes and looking into changing the spotlamps to something with a better light "spread" (simple me doesn't know the tech terms for this!). I'll let you all know how it goes.

:2thumb:


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> Nice readings!
> 292 uW/cm2 of sunlight is equivalent to about UVI 6.
> 52 uW/cm2 in the middle of the day would be about UVI 0.5 and 71 uW/cm2 would be about UVI 0.8.
> On 15th March it rained here all day. I got 73 uW/cm2, UVI 0.8, at 1pm and 48 uW/cm2, UVI 0.5, at 2.30pm. Looks like Wales and Portugal are both having grotty weather! :lol2:
> ...


Thanks for the explanation above. I am learning. 

Unfortunately I do NOT see wild lepidus on our farm, even though we see them in the mountains to the north of us where it is colder/wetter. I think they suffer from high predation here from large populations of lizard eating snakes (which are very numerous here) !

My captive outdoor lepidus are not basking, but they are new aquisitions, and have had a funny messsed about winter. But the other Timon species have been actively basking for about a month, but only when the rain stops !


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

That's the key point I made a while ago in regards to UV and vision.

It is a large part of a reptiles vision and obviously contributes enormously to their decisions/feelings.

But as with sun-worshipers, you need to establish a specific basking spot, and in some cases several using spot bulbs etc.

Ceramic heaters IMO should only be used as a Safety net throughout the night, ideally you need the "Yellow Glow" to indicate a warm/basking spot that will be targeted by the reptile.

The increase of the UV blue light could well give a "Cold feel" to the vivarium without the prescence of a yellow glow, and make the reptile hide more etc


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## lilacdragon2007 (Dec 2, 2006)

> Gregg: "Are you serious?"


For a couple of very interesting studies on the interactions between light and thermoregulation, in a diurnal and a nocturnal lizard, download these rather big files for scientific papers by two herpetologists in the USA:

Sievert, L.M and V.H. Hutchison. 1988. Light versus heat: thermoregulatory behavior in a nocturnal lizard (Gekko gecko) Herpetologica 44(3): 266 -273 
http://academic.emporia.edu/sievertl/S&H%20gecko.pdf 

Sievert, L.M and V.H. Hutchison. 1991. The Influence of Photoperiod and Position of a Light Source on Behavioral Thermoregulation in Crotaphytus collaris (Squamata: Iguanidae). Copeia 1991(1):105 - 110 
http://academic.emporia.edu/sievertl/S&H photoperiod.pdf

From what I have learned through watching my own animals and those in the wild, and reading scientific literature, I'm convinced that reptiles use light to govern all their circadian and circannual rhythms - their body clocks - which control almost every behavioural and physiological response, including daily sleep patterns, body temperature, alertness, hormone levels, immune function, digestive activity and seasonal reproductive behaviour. This is how their brains work.

Humans divide "light" "heat" and "UV" into three distinct concepts and with our electricity and contraptions we can even separate them in everyday life. A reptile does not do this. A reptile has evolved whilst experiencing a continuum - sunlight - and uses cues from different aspects of sunlight to derive information about other aspects that it cannot see. For example, in one experiment (not in the two papers listed above) lizards were placed in a test situation where the whole area was kept at the same temperature, but one part of the floor was illuminated with a beam of light from which all infrared wavelengths was filtered out, so that area was no more warming than anywhere else. Where did the lizards bask? Under the visible light. Presumably because that is where they "expect" the warmth to be....

So yes, I am very serious.
I'm also rather busy so I'm going to bow out gracefully, now, leaving the rest of this debate in the capable hands of the rest of the RFUK team. 

Thanks guys, for inviting me in!
Best wishes
Frances


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## Kerrabutt (Jan 20, 2013)

jools said:


> You are right, IMO, about the light looking cold now (to my simple eyes it does). I suggested in my very first post that possibly lack of "brightness" might be the cause of this behaviour.
> 
> :2thumb:


Arcadia's T5 D3s emit light at a colour temp of 7000k, which is leaning towards the blue end of the spectrum hence why it probably looks cold. Human eyes respond best to the colour green and are the most sensitive to it, so a pure white light / light with a slight yellow tinge will look a lot brighter to us than say a blue or a red light. It probably looks a lot different to your reptiles 

You can add another small lamp that doesn't emit UV such as a CFL to help balance out the colours if you think it might be that. Colour temperature is a long and boring subject, but generally the sun is between 5300k and 5700k at midday on a summers day. Flourescent lighting comes with an added problem of CRI (Colour Rendering Index) which basically refers to it's ability to accurately replicate the colour temperature emitted by an equivalent black body source (such as the Sun or a tungsten filament). A CRI of 90 or above is best, obviously the closer you can get to 100 the better. Sometimes when you're looking you will see CRI referred to as either A or B instead of a number, this just means : A - Between 90 and 100, B - Between 80 and 90.

Phew, lol :mrgreen: I like boring subjects


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Interesting about the visible light being part of the problem. I suppose there is an easy way to find out. 

Jools, if you were to put the 2% back in and increase the overall visible light, and the lizards came back out and acted healthy again, then I suppose we have our answer. I think the idea that them hiding all the time and not eating is a healthy response does not make sense to me, especially given the immediacy of that response.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

I aim to do this as soon as I get a chance.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

lilacdragon2007 said:


> For example, in one experiment (not in the two papers listed above) lizards were placed in a test situation where the whole area was kept at the same temperature, but one part of the floor was illuminated with a beam of light from which all infrared wavelengths was filtered out, so that area was no more warming than anywhere else. Where did the lizards bask? Under the visible light. Presumably because that is where they "expect" the warmth to be....


Right, so the lizards were tricked into using a basking spot that provided no heat where they can not behave like ectotherms and thermoregulate. 
So, tell me, how providing lizards with a basking spot that provides no heat proves your case. It only proves that reptiles instinctively see light as a heat source.

Take those same lizards and take the UV lighting away and add an actual basking area that provides heat and that is where they will go to bask in order to properly digest and metabolize their food intake. Reptiles look for optimal temperature gradients, not light gradients.

Out of all this, it still stands that UVB is utilized by reptiles to synthesize D3. That was never argued. There is nothing to suggest that any of the other yet to be named "benefits" make any difference either way in captive reptiles. For most species, the use of supplements offers them all they need to thrive in captivity. It has been proven that some species do not need UV or supplements to thrive.

Again, the proof is in thousands of collections from small hobby keepers to large scale breeders that do not use UV lighting.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Jools.....I think your thread is heading for the RFUK record books !!!!! 27 pages with Im sure more to come.

UV has been proven to have benefits, it is perhaps the most natural of the artificial means for achieving D3 synthesis...fact.

Correctly used supplements and nutritional support have been effective for many years with captive nocturnal / crepuscular animals. The D3 cycle has effectively been maintained without UV lighting....fact..

Its not possible to use UV lighting in rack systems and it would be uneconomical in terms of space and equipment cost for the commercial and to a lesser extent the hobby breeder to move their animals from racks to vivs to facilitate the use of UV. To do this we would see a significant rise in costs for maintaining and purchasing these animals. Correct supplementation and attention to diet ensures that in most instances the animals reared or kept in racks are healthy.....the thousands of healthy animals produced in racks clearly shows this is fact.

Whether kept in a vivarium equipped with the best available lighting etc or in a rack, the animal is not being kept in natural conditions. A 3ft area for photo or thermal regulation is unnatural to any species. We can try to convince ourselves that we are providing a more natural environment for the animal but in reality there is little resemblance between the animals natural world and the artificial world we keep it in. If we are keeping animals in unnatural conditions its not unreasonable to think we will have to use unnatural methods to keep them healthy. Whether thats supplement or UV, its artificial. If the animal remains healthy, produces healthy offspring, if it displays behaviour natural to the species, achieves a lifespan typical of the species we cant get too upset about the husbandry method.

The UV v Supplement debate will go round in circles for years to come. There might come a day when all the big guys involved in the areas of heating, lighting, nutrition etc get together, pool their knowledge and experience resulting in keepers being offered what they need to ensure their animals get the best however its housed.

Ive rambled on but now its time for my second coffee and a smoke.....have to kick start my day. Im predicting 34 pages for this thread. Oh yeah another fact......
Many visitors to RFUK find it extremely hard to agree to disagree. It does make for some long and interesting threads though.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Mal said:


> Jools.....I think your thread is heading for the RFUK record books !!!!! 27 pages with Im sure more to come.
> 
> UV has been proven to have benefits, it is perhaps the most natural of the artificial means for achieving D3 synthesis...fact.
> 
> ...


Hallelujah Brother ! :2thumb:


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## ayrshire bob (Oct 24, 2012)

Mal said:


> Jools.....I think your thread is heading for the RFUK record books !!!!! 27 pages with Im sure more to come.
> 
> UV has been proven to have benefits, it is perhaps the most natural of the artificial means for achieving D3 synthesis...fact.
> 
> ...


 
I completely disagree! I think 36 pages :Na_Na_Na_Na: :2wallbang: :blowup: :naughty: :halo:


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Thats was on just one cup of coffee and one smoke. Im on about my 7th mug now and Im ashamed to say how many smokes..... Im buzzing, hyper.....I just wish it would last. It may hit 36 pages but it only counts if there is nooooo cheating.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Us? Cheat? Never :whistling2:

Have installed the 2% tube in one of the vivs and seen the lizards in that viv out basking this morning :no1:


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

It is perfectly possible to make a rack system for lizards that includes UV. I bought five slimline Arcadia T5 unit last Dec for that exact purpose. It is however more difficult if you want to do this in very shallow tray type racks. But it should be possible, if difficult. 

My rack has five shelves each with two deep trays/boxs and the lizards seem to be doing very well with this lighting.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> It is perfectly possible to make a rack system for lizards that includes UV. I bought five slimline Arcadia T5 unit last Dec for that exact purpose. It is however more difficult if you want to do this in very shallow tray type racks. But it should be possible, if difficult.
> 
> My rack has five shelves each with two deep trays/boxs and the lizards seem to be doing very well with this lighting.


Glad to hear that mate.

I think my dislike to the racking systems come from watching too many kids on YouTube that own 40+ Geckos that all live in an area smaller than my one CWD, with no light, no obvious signs of heating (Some admit to keeping them at room temp constantly).

But I don't think I have seen a professional 'Racking System' so it's unfair to judge all, but there is a fine line between it "Being cheaper for the breeder" and "Giving the lizard a sh*t life".

But you managed to get lights, so no reason for these dumbass people to keep them in almost complete darkness -_-


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Dragon Farm said:


> It is perfectly possible to make a rack system for lizards that includes UV. I bought five slimline Arcadia T5 unit last Dec for that exact purpose. It is however more difficult if you want to do this in very shallow tray type racks. But it should be possible, if difficult.
> 
> My rack has five shelves each with two deep trays/boxs and the lizards seem to be doing very well with this lighting.


I think that racks are used primarily for grond dwelling geclos aren`t they Mark? People who keep them do it a bit differently to keepers most other types of lizard.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Hi Colin. I was just responding to what Mal said above. Most of what they say is sensible of course, i was just making a slight 'correction'. Some people are a bit Gecko obsessed, like I am Lacerta obsessed !

I can understand why Ieuan would feel like he does, but there are rack and then there are racks, just as there are UV lights and other UV lights.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

To go off track.How are the L.media doing?I picked up a pair recently and if it ever warms up over here I will be putting them outside.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I will e-mail you in the morning Colin.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Ieuan7 said:


> Glad to hear that mate.
> 
> I think my dislike to the racking systems come from watching too many kids on YouTube that own 40+ Geckos that all live in an area smaller than my one CWD, with no light, no obvious signs of heating (Some admit to keeping them at room temp constantly).
> 
> ...


Actually, the animals in the racks we use have a good light cycle but they tend to sleep in their hides missing the daylight (or electric light if its gloomy) that comes through the front of the rack. They also have greater floor space in their single occupant tub than the minimum recommended 24" x 12" per animal. Not all racks are the same, we dont all use tiny tubs with multiple occupants and were not all dumbass. Some of us actually care deeply about our animals even though they are kept in racks.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Mal said:


> Actually, the animals in the racks we use have a good light cycle but they tend to sleep in their hides missing the daylight (or electric light if its gloomy) that comes through the front of the rack. They also have greater floor space in their single occupant tub than the minimum recommended 24" x 12" per animal. Not all racks are the same, we dont all use tiny tubs with multiple occupants and were not all dumbass. Some of us actually care deeply about our animals even though they are kept in racks.


Glad to hear this too.

I never said all who used racks are dumbass's. My post was aimed at dumbass people who do treat them as a pair of socks. If you do not, then good for you and your reptiles.

Sadly not all reptiles have the same luxuries, and I personally think Racking systems promote poor husbandry, it's seen as a cheap way to horde reptiles.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

*What a difference a tube makes*

This is one of the males out basking today. I've replaced the 2% UV tube in this viv (left the D3+ luminare in place also) and seen a huge difference in behaviour.

To me this thread is less about the merits of UV vs. supplementation and more about the benefits of a good balanced light source for SOME diurnal lizards.


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## retinal (Jun 24, 2012)

Ahh nice one jools... so glad to see some positive results in the end.

enjoy

...


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

jools said:


> This is one of the males out basking today. I've replaced the 2% UV tube in this viv (left the D3+ luminare in place also) and seen a huge difference in behaviour.
> 
> To me this thread is less about the merits of UV vs. supplementation and more about the benefits of a good balanced light source for SOME diurnal lizards.
> 
> image


Wow, And I was starting to think it was the barometric pressure, magnetic fields, and "new gear syndrom" all along. LOL...

It is good to see your lizards behaving mormally again Jools.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Gregg M said:


> Wow, And I was starting to think it was the barometric pressure, magnetic fields, and "new gear syndrom" all along. LOL...
> 
> It is good to see your lizards behaving mormally again Jools.



wow..and I thought sarcasm was a myth....I must have been wrong...

ffs get some damn manners already. You're attitude stinks. If you want to constantly dig at someone then at least have the blasted courtesy of doing it out of the forums. I for one do not want to hear you constantly digging at people with your 'holyer than thou' attitude. 

If you took the time to learn one fact, that American and UK idea's of how to talk to people are different you might just get along more with people on here. It is after all a UK based forum.

Show others some blasted respect already. You may have years worth of knowledge, you may actually have something to say, but the way you talk to / about people stinks.

Pulling others apart to try make yourself look big just makes you look like a jackass and any info you try get across is lost in the process.

Debate and personal attacks on people are two completely seperate things. 

Then again I suppose your sig says it all...A fine line between arrogance and certainty...you're just falling far into the arrogance side of it.

Pity this forum does not have an ignore feature. I for one would be using it. You're knowledge is not worth putting up with your american lack of manners.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Gregg M said:


> Wow, And I was starting to think it was the barometric pressure, magnetic fields, and "new gear syndrom" all along. LOL...
> 
> It is good to see your lizards behaving mormally again Jools.


Thank you for your good wishes.

But I have to say Gregg that I am disappointed (this is English speak for something much stronger - but I'm too polite to say) that throughout this thread you have continued to pursue your vendetta against Arcadiajohn. You have also taken issue (again this is English understatement for something far stronger) with lilacdragon - who has actually provided me with proven readings and facts - enabling me to make an informed decision as to my course of action.

I respect your experience and expertise. But as an also very experienced keeper I realise that I don't know everything. I have been very grateful for all responses and feel I'm able to evaluate the value of them. The only plus points of most of your input, in this instance, is to keep this thread alive.


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## Gregg M (Jul 19, 2006)

nicnet said:


> wow..and I thought sarcasm was a myth....I must have been wrong...
> 
> ffs get some damn manners already. You're attitude stinks. If you want to constantly dig at someone then at least have the blasted courtesy of doing it out of the forums. I for one do not want to hear you constantly digging at people with your 'holyer than thou' attitude.
> 
> ...


Hey, have fun with all that... I get along very well with most on here. In fact I have made a couple of close friends who have even made the trip to the US to hang out.

Whats the saying? When in Rome do as the Romans? LOL. Are you joking? I should alter myself because I am on a UK based forum? Ok, shouldI start using words like "blasted", "bloody", or "mate"? Get a grip. What I write are just words on a computer screen. Its not that serious...

And yes, it would be much better if there was an ignore feature here so I do not have to sit and read more of your crying about how I am arrogant and have an "American lack of manners". Hey, is that an attack on my entire culture? Awesome... Its funny, everything you are telling me I should not do and getting pissed off at me about is exactly what you just did to me... Odd how that happens so often.



jools said:


> Thank you for your good wishes.
> 
> But I have to say Gregg that I am disappointed (this is English speak for something much stronger - but I'm too polite to say) that throughout this thread you have continued to pursue your vendetta against Arcadiajohn. You have also taken issue (again this is English understatement for something far stronger) with lilacdragon - who has actually provided me with proven readings and facts - enabling me to make an informed decision as to my course of action.
> 
> I respect your experience and expertise. But as an also very experienced keeper I realise that I don't know everything. I have been very grateful for all responses and feel I'm able to evaluate the value of them. The only plus points of most of your input, in this instance, is to keep this thread alive.


Like I said, I am glad your animals are acting normal and out and about.

I am sure you know how I am by now Jools. When I see BS and misinformation, I call it out. At least with me, there is no BS and you always know where you stand with me. Some people like me for it, some, not so much. I am not here to please people with kind words and pats on the back even when they do the wrong thing. If that disappoints you, I am sorry.

Happy to help keep the thread going for you... LOL


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## imginy (Jun 14, 2009)

nicnet said:


> wow..and I thought sarcasm was a myth....I must have been wrong...
> 
> ffs get some damn manners already. You're attitude stinks. If you want to constantly dig at someone then at least have the blasted courtesy of doing it out of the forums. I for one do not want to hear you constantly digging at people with your 'holyer than thou' attitude.
> 
> ...





jools said:


> Thank you for your good wishes.
> 
> But I have to say Gregg that I am disappointed (this is English speak for something much stronger - but I'm too polite to say) that throughout this thread you have continued to pursue your vendetta against Arcadiajohn. You have also taken issue (again this is English understatement for something far stronger) with lilacdragon - who has actually provided me with proven readings and facts - enabling me to make an informed decision as to my course of action.
> 
> I respect your experience and expertise. But as an also very experienced keeper I realise that I don't know everything. I have been very grateful for all responses and feel I'm able to evaluate the value of them. The only plus points of most of your input, in this instance, is to keep this thread alive.



You two come off a bit racist there :gasp:

If Gregg is being nasty it's not because he's American. 

Most other forums that I go on American or English Gregg would have suspended/banned for speaking to people like that. 

There are plenty of American forums where people are really nice, take urc for example very friendly American forum Ultimate RC - Friendly forums, honest reviews, unique projects

If moderators started giving suspensions for insults/trolling/rude behavior and deleting the posts then there would be none of this.


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## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

imginy said:


> You two come off a bit* racist there* :gasp:
> 
> If Gregg is being nasty it's not because he's American.
> 
> ...


Yes - you're right. I sincerely apologise to all our American friends. Every other American I have met - either in reality or on the internet - has been unfailingly polite and courteous. I should not have reacted like that.


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## Luke (May 19, 2005)

I can't believe this is still going???, I agree moderators need to be more visibly active in suppressing comments of above mentioned criteria, the problem I find with text based communication is we interpret what we read based on our own beliefs and thoughts about that person or indeed subject, for example if someone's annoyed us and were texting them we will read their message and interpret it into a negative way, its only our mindset that controls that unless it is direct blatant abuse or rudeness. I will say however regardless of greggs thoughts/beliefs/opinions on Arcadiajohn alone or in fact the whole UV debate, if you give your opinion then leave it there the poster may use your advice or may not but above all it is your opinion so its only right in your eyes.As with john I've noticed since I've been back on here he will give his opinion based on what research his company have done and leave it there, if we all took that approach then itd be a much more peaceful forum. So before we start a racist cross Atlantic battle with our friends let's just agree to disagree??.


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## Romski (Dec 2, 2007)

*UV illumination*

Dear all,
 I am a crusty-pie keeper and have been thinking of keeping a lizard and the green lizards post by Jools took my interest. I’m also quite interested in light partly because it is interesting as geeky science and mostly because it is really important for my turtles. I could not help looking but I wish I had not.


Turts have more need of calcium than regular reptiles as some 40% of them is shell. In particular when they are young their soft outer bits are cartilage which with time changes to bone which as you may have guessed needs all the facilitators to promote good calcium growth. There are some in the turt hobby that also dismiss the value of UV, I am not one of them. When growing, youngsters with poor environmental conditions which include light and diet really stand out.


The overriding image I got from reading the endless pages of this thread was how similar some of the arguments were to those in the 60’s concerning the danger of cigarettes. There was no data then, that they (ciggies) were dangerous, big company names swore they were not harmful even my dad said he had been smoking all his life and at 80 he was still fine. - so it is with the quality of light of which UV is an important facet. 
I have heard the story many times that animals had been reared very satisfactorily without the benefit of UV and all is well. I too have raised animals without UV that are very healthy. However for me times and science has moved on and I gave up smoking. What I have read on UV light seems solid and whilst no specific data for reptiles has been presented the need for balanced lighting including UV is as compelling as cigarettes being recognised as a bad thing. It’s taken 50 years for public smoking to be banned and that is for a matter of massive importance, I wonder how long it will take for UV use to be accepted.


Be quite clear there is no overriding evidence, exhaustively undertaken and written up on the subject, there is no money in it. Equally be clear that just because animals have been raised without UV and that supplements have been used to good effect that a conclusion can be reached. Both are fuzzy untenable positions. 



Turtles have greater challenges than the shell-less reptiles and ones that hibernate underwater have even greater challenges. Over winter whilst hibernating lactic acid can be produced by a hibernating animal, this is may be buffered by calcium borrowed from the carapace. Calcium, temperature and diet all play a massive part in basic survival of winter and then on top of that, they need the same substance for eggs production. These last two winters in the UK have had disastrous effect on animals that we have hibernated. Many have had unusual losses and anti-biotics can’t replace basic husbandry. The most effective solution in cases where animals have come out of hibernation in a glycogen depleted state has been the provision of high levels of light that has included UV content. 



Water crusties also develop illnesses just to spite the keeper. One such, includes fungus, this particular affliction comes about through all sorts of reasons which include water quality, stress and lack of good basking facilities. The whole thread has omitted to mention the benefits of UV as a bactericide and fungicide and for us turt keepers this is an important weapon for health management. It is vital for skin health.


I do need to mention John from Arcadia. The criticism has been, that he has been overtly pushing his company product. True. This forum does not exclude any manufacturer from participating so it may be appropriate that you Gregg contact the other manufacturers and castigate them for not participating in the hobby so passionately. For my part all of the responses from John on this and other fora have been constructive and professional. I may not always agree with him and I have emailed him telling him of his product weaknesses. His level of commitment is genuine and is as far as I can see is a positive. I am lucky enough to get involved with stuff in this hobby, interesting stuff. A couple of weeks ago I was working with a rescue centre that needed some help with lights. I mentioned it to John and he delivered what I asked for by return of post, it was done out of good will. He is a good guy so don’t knock him, I wish there were more of him in the industry. 



He is overt in his advertising? I have lived and worked in USA some three times over the years, I love it, please don’t tell me that as a US citizen you find it unusual. 



I have am not done yet.....
I come from an industry where when a technical statement is made someone always asks for validation – I think it is really important. 



I own up to knowing Frances – a bit. Frances was a vet and has an enquiring mind to a level of damnable frustration. It is always test this hypothesis or get more data I’m afraid, she can’t say it but I can. If she is satisfied with the goodness of her answer then so am I. She advises on the subject matter at international level to zoological societies and if her word is good enough for them to listen to, then it is good enough for me. This is not just some follow my leader thing, as I, like many others can rationalise and decide if what we read is valid. 



Give up smoking.
Rom

Heck did I write all that!!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Romski said:


> Dear all,
> I am a crusty-pie keeper and have been thinking of keeping a lizard and the green lizards post by Jools took my interest. I’m also quite interested in light partly because it is interesting as geeky science and mostly because it is really important for my turtles. I could not help looking but I wish I had not.
> 
> 
> ...


Give up smoking! thats a laugh!!! :gasp:


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