# Something that has annoyed me....



## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

.....Is a thread in the classifieds in which a Grammostola sp north that is possibly gravid is for sale for £15. Normally i would be fine with it and think oh quick sale. That was until i was sent this:

*Selina20:* Could you also tell me how big the G.sp north is??????? Did u mate her?

*Seller:* She is 3.5-4 inch legspan , Adult , she was mated with a normal chile rose male that i was selling but i hadnt seen him sperm web so I am uncertain if she is gravid . Naughty I know..:gasp:

What would pocess someone into doing something that stupid. I wouldnt of minded too much if it had been an accident but its the fact the owner purposely mated the two.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hmmmn, that's annoying. 

I'm currently in contact with a member of the BTS in order to breed my "North", how foolish to interbreed them.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> Hmmmn, that's annoying.
> 
> I'm currently in contact with a member of the BTS in order to breed my "North", how foolish to interbreed them.


The fact is is he even knew what he was doing. I posted it here and on the classifieds post so that whoever gets the girl will do the right thing with the sac. The last thing we need is more hybrids.


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## miss_rawr (Mar 18, 2009)

i know nothing and i mean a big fat nothing, so please don't be too harsh here, but, what's wrong with breeding the two? is it all different types that are "wrong" to breed or just those types? are hybrids more likely to have problems ect?

i'm not thinking of getting a spider or invert i was just interested =)


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

I don't know anything about it either, but I imagine it's the same as with other species of animal, where cross breeding can eventually lead to a loss of the "pure" species.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

miss_rawr said:


> i know nothing and i mean a big fat nothing, so please don't be too harsh here, but, what's wrong with breeding the two? is it all different types that are "wrong" to breed or just those types? are hybrids more likely to have problems ect?
> 
> i'm not thinking of getting a spider or invert i was just interested =)


People tend to want to keep the species as "pure" as possible. There has already been a lot of hybridisation in the hobby which has messed a lot of genus' up. There is no need to breed hybrids at all. IMO and a lot of peoples opinions it is wrong to breed hybrids no matter what. A lot of work is going into sorting out Genus' because of past breeding.


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## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

miss_rawr said:


> i know nothing and i mean a big fat nothing, so please don't be too harsh here, but, what's wrong with breeding the two? is it all different types that are "wrong" to breed or just those types? are hybrids more likely to have problems ect?
> 
> i'm not thinking of getting a spider or invert i was just interested =)


 
Really tbh some genus are already messed up which leads to it being hard to correctly identify some spiders.

I would never want to breed hybrids due to this, especially t's like avics the genus is so messed up other than (Versicolor, Minatrix) and a few other easily identified species.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

It's just that in the wild the 2 are found in different locations so would not interbreed. Hobbyists and breeders try to keep the different variants "pure" so that they are not lost to the hobby, especially important now that Chile is apparently stopping exports of wild caught specimens.


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## miss_rawr (Mar 18, 2009)

oooh right 
i can understand why it's annoyed you now 
thanks a lot for the info everyone =)


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## antmac (Jan 28, 2009)

garlicpickle said:


> It's just that in the wild the 2 are found in different locations so would not interbreed. Hobbyists and breeders try to keep the different variants "pure" so that they are not lost to the hobby, especially important now that Chile is apparently stopping exports of wild caught specimens.


 
ow c so how meny people do you think are cb breeding of these spices ?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

At the end of the day if it offends you that much buy the spider and destroy the sac if it produces one...problem solved :whistling2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> The fact is is he even knew what he was doing. I posted it here and on the classifieds post so that *whoever gets the girl will do the right thing with the sac*. The last thing we need is more hybrids.


The 'right' thing?

What would that be?

Thanks


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## antmac (Jan 28, 2009)

enlightenment said:


> The 'right' thing?
> 
> What would that be?
> 
> Thanks


destroy it lol


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

antmac said:


> destroy it lol


So it would be better to destroy this life form than to let it live, even as a pet?

Just because it isn't 'pure'.

David Duke and Matt Hale would be proud...


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

selina20 said:


> The fact is is he even knew what he was doing. I posted it here and on the classifieds post so that whoever gets the girl will do the right thing with the sac. The last thing we need is more hybrids.


Well, I do agree hybrids are a bad idea, but if I bought the animal I wouldn't destroy the sac. Hybrids are common in plants and basically, it's laziness that leads to problems, not hybridisation. 

I mean, I would have no problem if these were accurately labled "Grammostola [sp."north" x Rosea]", and *only* maintained as this. However, I can't see enough responsible people to keep such records, alas. 



miss_rawr said:


> i know nothing and i mean a big fat nothing, so please don't be too harsh here, but, what's wrong with breeding the two? is it all different types that are "wrong" to breed or just those types? are hybrids more likely to have problems ect?
> 
> i'm not thinking of getting a spider or invert i was just interested =)


Hybrids can be of increased fitness relative to their counterparts. It's called "Hybrid vigour" and is especially common in plants. It's even more pronounced when you have line bred animals that are highly interbred - hybridising them with something else can often reverse or decrease the build up of negative traits. 

However, as mentioned above the risk of misnaming them or intentionally mis-selling them as something new is just too great and it could cause lots of hassle later on. Especially important is the potential for people unwittingly buying hyrbids and then breeding what they assume would be pure stock that is actually hybridised. You could always outbreed them, but its hard to tell the extent of hybridisation when we have no reference point to look back upon.

G. sp North is pretty new and CB with them has hardly ocurred to my knowledge, so hybridising them just seems like laziness - It's not that hard to find a male/female of the same species.


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> So it would be better to destroy this life form than to let it live, even as a pet?
> 
> Just because it isn't 'pure'.
> 
> David Duke and Matt Hale would be proud...


I think they mean destroy the egg sac.


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

GRB said:


> Well, I do agree hybrids are a bad idea, but if I bought the animal I wouldn't destroy the sac. Hybrids are common in plants and basically, it's laziness that leads to problems, not hybridisation.
> 
> I mean, I would have no problem if these were accurately labled "Grammostola [sp."north" x Rosea]", and *only* maintained as this. However, I can't see enough responsible people to keep such records, alas.
> 
> ...


I do agree again, but i do feel hybridisation in inverts is a whole lot different to mammalian hybridisation and especially plants.
I think your always gonna run into issues if you try to relate one to the other


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

GRB said:


> I mean, I would have no problem if these were accurately labled "Grammostola [sp."north" x Rosea]", and *only* maintained as this. However, I can't see enough responsible people to keep such records, alas.


The only way to do this would be to destroy the sac or keep em all as pets.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

C_Strike said:


> I do agree again, but i do feel hybridisation in inverts is a whole lot different to mammalian hybridisation and especially plants.
> I think your always gonna run into issues if you try to relate one to the other


Yeah, I understand why keepers are hesitant, and I much prefer this caution compared to the situation in reptiles where it seems an understanding of mendelian ratios is as far as anyone seems to go ("to hell with negative trait linkage drag and build up of autosomal recessives!").


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## antmac (Jan 28, 2009)

lol i mean the eggsac 

cus if there was no human influance it would no be there in the first place.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Ozgi said:


> I think they mean destroy the egg sac.


I thought so.

Can't say I would support that action, Ogzi.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I don't see the big deal, yes there is the POTENTIAL for the female advertised to provide hybrids, but it's not a definite, plus if she does lay a sac for the new owner, then they have to label them as a hybrid sp, plenty of people own hybrids and keep them as pets.

The self righteous attitude is wrong, he was up front and honest about it and hasn't misled anyone about what the spider was mated to.

Also I think people jumping on the for sale thread and having a pop is petty and childish.


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## Becky (Mar 26, 2007)

But he is selling it as 'mated', not once does it state mated with a completely different species so if Selina hadn't put that post on, and the female produced a viable sac, the babies are passed on as sp. North and go out into the hobby... and the problem starts!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I think if the best defence for hybridising is "it aint so bad" (that's a generic response not a quote) then I think its best avoided. Scientific experiments on hybridising usually result in the sacs being destroyed. It can happen in nature but its far easier to produce hybrid breeding due to the restraints of an enclosure.
There's a desire from responsible hobbyists to see clearly defined species and unfortunately this just muddies the waters.
Keep it real


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

selina20 said:


> .....Is a thread in the classifieds in which a Grammostola sp north that is possibly gravid is for sale for £15. Normally i would be fine with it and think oh quick sale. That was until i was sent this:
> 
> *Selina20:* Could you also tell me how big the G.sp north is??????? Did u mate her?
> 
> ...


And unfortunately there are a lot of cowboy tarantula breeders that are jumping straight into the breeding side of things after getting their first spider months before hand and the inexperience and ignorance to what is in the tarantula community. It's a shame and it's the likes of this which makes a complete mess of a genus due to people not taking due care enough or simply wanting quick cash.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

Muze said:


> The only way to do this would be to destroy the sac or keep em all as pets.


But who would want a couple of hundred tarantulas with no outlet for them to go. they would be cluttering up space and continual feeding would deem impractial if you sold the spiderlings and stated only as pets and not to breed you cant be sure that people buying them wont chance breeding in future creating more of a problem. The only way is to take out the egg sac and destroy it.


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## Cockys Royals (Jun 28, 2008)

selina20 said:


> *People tend to want to keep the species as "pure" as possible.* There has already been a lot of hybridisation in the hobby which has messed a lot of genus' up. *There is no need to breed hybrids at all.* IMO and a lot of peoples opinions it is wrong to breed hybrids no matter what. A lot of work is going into sorting out Genus' because of past breeding.



Same here as in the snakes, I agree there are some lovely looking hybrid / morphs out there, but I much prefer the normals. Thats why I only have 7 NORMAL royal pythons. But same applies to spiders & every other living creature, would they start to consider mating a human with a monkey, be interesting to see what comes out of it.


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> The self righteous attitude is wrong, he was up front and honest about it and hasn't misled anyone about what the spider was mated to.


[email protected] this has nothing to do with self righteousness! This is how the vast majority of the community within the people who keep tarantulas and arachnid feel toward hybridisation and creating problems which began with this exact kind of situation. If someone had been sold a P smithi for a large amount only to find it is a hybrid between 2 different Pokies which is completely worthless and a waste of money they would be a bit pi$$ed, wouldn't you? The problem is more and more people coming into this hobby with no respect or consideration for people who have spent decades working on taxonomy, breeding and classification. 

If people dont agree with others who are against hybridisation then they can bog off, they dont belong in the community.


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

> If people dont agree with others who are against hybridisation then they can bog off, they dont belong in the community.


WTF Personly I feel its people with this kind of attitude who don't belong in the community. 
There is NOT one single person in this god forsaken hobby who can tell you what and what not to do with your spiders. Advice is one thing but barking orders saying what you can or can't do is another. 
I guess this is the type of thing to expect with the lack of oxygen up on that high horse!

Cheers
Chris


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> I don't see the big deal, yes there is the POTENTIAL for the female advertised to provide hybrids, but it's not a definite, plus if she does lay a sac for the new owner, then they have to label them as a hybrid sp, plenty of people own hybrids and keep them as pets.
> 
> The self righteous attitude is wrong, he was up front and honest about it and hasn't misled anyone about what the spider was mated to.
> 
> Also I think people jumping on the for sale thread and having a pop is petty and childish.


Its only because i wrote on there what it is mated to that is the reason people now know why. The fact he didnt write this in the advert was wrong. Someone would of brought that thinking it was mated to the real thing only to find that the slings are hybrid.

If he had wrote in the advert to start with i would not of bothered but misleading people like that is out of order IMO.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

spider_mad said:


> But who would want a couple of hundred tarantulas with no outlet for them to go. they would be cluttering up space and continual feeding would deem impractial if you sold the spiderlings and stated only as pets and not to breed you cant be sure that people buying them wont chance breeding in future creating more of a problem. The only way is to take out the egg sac and destroy it.


Keeping them all as pets, so they dont get into the trade or culling duh!...so you are agreeing with what i said then :whistling2: LOL


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

tescos said:


> WTF Personly I feel its people with this kind of attitude who don't belong in the community.
> There is NOT one single person in this god forsaken hobby who can tell you what and what not to do with your spiders. Advice is one thing but barking orders saying what you can or can't do is another.
> I guess this is the type of thing to expect with the lack of oxygen up on that high horse!
> 
> ...


Agreed! :no1: :2thumb:


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

There's also the fact that it could have been sold to a novice, who then goes on to have loads of spiderlings and sells them as the species mentioned, not knowing they are hybrids. These then mate with other pure members of the species........


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

You could in theory give the babies away but get whoever takes them on to sign a contract saying they shall not be used for breeding purposes and if they ever sell up their collection these spiders go back to the breeder. This is what a friend did recently with a hybrid G.rosea NCF/RCF sac. However not everyone is truthful so it depends to a certain degree how much u trust the person.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

The guy was being truthful...he told a buyer without being prompted and was not trying to hide anything.

Ive bought from this guy before via another forum and would never think for a second that he would deliberatley sell anything without giving the full information on it.

TBH i think people are just trying to cause problems that are not needed for this guy.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

spider_mad said:


> [email protected] this has nothing to do with self righteousness! This is how the vast majority of the community within the people who keep tarantulas and arachnid feel toward hybridisation and creating problems which began with this exact kind of situation. If someone had been sold a P smithi for a large amount only to find it is a hybrid between 2 different Pokies which is completely worthless and a waste of money they would be a bit pi$$ed, wouldn't you? The problem is more and more people coming into this hobby with no respect or consideration for people who have spent decades working on taxonomy, breeding and classification.
> 
> If people dont agree with others who are against hybridisation then they can bog off, they dont belong in the community.


I don't agree with hybridisation in inverts as a whole, not just tarantulas.

Yes, if someone had sold me a certain sp which I later found out was a hybrid or not the pure sp I had bought it as then I would be annoyed.

There are more and more people coming into the hobby with disregard for taxonomy and classifications, but they are the ones that usually don't last or will gain the deserved reputation and feedback, but without new blood the hobby will fail.

For you to say people who disagree can bog off is a stupid statement, people are entitled to opinions, whether they choose to put those into practice and create hybrids is not the issue in my eyes, there will be plenty of people who can find a pet home for a hybrid species, the fact that they don't agree with people who think the animals should be culled has no bearing on there place in the community.


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

> There are more and more people coming into the hobby with disregard for taxonomy and classifications, but they are the ones that usually don't last or will gain the deserved reputation and feedback, but without new blood the hobby will fail.


Hi 
Can you elaborate on what you mean here?
Cheers
Chris


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## gizzard (May 5, 2008)

usually breeding between two species produces infertile young so it would be quite unlikely for them to be able to breed but it is possible that they could be fertile which is worrying. but, it seems highly unlikely to me that they bred, no sperm web and didnt witness them breeding. seems to me there is barely any chance but it is possible, and definately not a reason for all you lot to get all highly strung and arguing over moral issues and all that crap, but IMO hybrids are pointless because you arent going to make the species any better and your going to mess up the gene pool for future generations if they are fertile.


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## Eightleggedfreak (Apr 2, 2007)

selina20 said:


> .....Is a thread in the classifieds in which a Grammostola sp north that is possibly gravid is for sale for £15. Normally i would be fine with it and think oh quick sale. That was until i was sent this:
> 
> *Selina20:* Could you also tell me how big the G.sp north is??????? Did u mate her?
> 
> ...


The fact of the matter is this .....
I was selling my first ever tarantula as a mature male .
I hadnt seen him make a sperm web and didnt know how he would react with a female much larger than himself .
I only had the Grammostola sp North that whas the same species , so put him into the enclosure with her just to see what would happen .
Well obviously they got it together ..
At the time I had not decided to sell her on , but now I have .
I havent hidden anything , selina 20 asked about her and I told her what was what .I will be telling anyone who enquires about her exactly the same story , it will be thier choice to destroy the sack or raise any potential hybrids ...
So Selina do me a big favour , and mind your own business ....
The matter does not concern you or anyone else for that matter .. Get off your high horse and do something useful with your life ....
Nigel :2thumb:


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## luke1994 (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't agree with hybrids either
The seller should of noted that it has been mated with a different species and could produce hybrid young. I can understand if it was an accident but if its done knowing your going to produce hybrids that i dont like. I accidently mated a rcf rosea with a female ncf and if anything comes of it then the sack will be froze. We dont want another genus messed up like the avic genus or having trouble to find a pure species like the vagans!


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## Eightleggedfreak (Apr 2, 2007)

luke1994 said:


> I don't agree with hybrids either
> The seller should of noted that it has been mated with a different species and could produce hybrid young. I can understand if it was an accident but if its done knowing your going to produce hybrids that i dont like. I accidently mated a rcf rosea with a female ncf and if anything comes of it then the sack will be froze. We dont want another genus messed up like the avic genus or having trouble to find a pure species like the vagans!


Read the above post :2thumb: Yes Its me !!!: victory:


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

> usually breeding between two species produces infertile young so it would be quite unlikely for them to be able to breed


Not true:-
_B. annitha_ x_ B. smithi_
_B. boehmei_ x_ B. klaasi_
_B. boehmei_ x_ B. emilia_
_B. smithi _x _B. boehmei_
_B. vagans_ x_ B. albopilosa_
_Brachypelma_ spp (red rumps) x_ Brachypelma_ spp (most don't even know which ones they own or if they are hybrids or not)
_Avicularia _spp x _Avicularia_ spp (most don't even know which ones they own or if they are hybrids or not)
_Poecilotheria_ spp x _Poecilotheria _spp (too many to list)
_P. cambridgei_ x_ P. iminia_ (do you think your examples are pure?)
_Certratogyrus _spp x _Ceratogyrus_ spp. (A fair few have been done once even by accident by a reconised athority of this genus))
_Hetrocrates_ spp x _Hetrocrates_ spp (most don't even know which ones they own or if they are hybrids or not)
_Chilobrachys_ spp x _Chilobrachys_ spp (most don't even know which ones they own or if they are hybrids or not)
The list can go on and on....



> which is worrying


To be honest I'm not so sure that it is.



> definately not a reason for all you lot to get all highly strung and arguing over moral issues and all that crap


I couldn't agree more.



> IMO hybrids are pointless because you arent going to make the species any better and your going to mess up the gene pool for future generations if they are fertile.


To many they are indeed deemed unessary but to some this is another aspect to the hobby. If the breeding or attempted breeding of hybrids was treated in a responsible way then in all honesty I can not see a problem at all. The biggest problem is like GRB said:-


> it's laziness that leads to problems, not hybridisation.


That and the most stupid stigma they have. If the stigma that hybrids are dirty wasn't there then the need to cover up that they are hybrids wouldn't be there either. 

Cheers
Chris


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Eightleggedfreak said:


> The fact of the matter is this .....
> I was selling my first ever tarantula as a mature male .
> I hadnt seen him make a sperm web and didnt know how he would react with a female much larger than himself .
> I only had the Grammostola sp North that whas the same species , so put him into the enclosure with her just to see what would happen .
> ...


They are *NOT* the same species *GENUS* yes but *SPECIES* no


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## Eightleggedfreak (Apr 2, 2007)

selina20 said:


> They are *NOT* the same species *GENUS* yes but *SPECIES* no


Yes fair do's , now get the hell off my case :devil:


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## antmac (Jan 28, 2009)

well at the end of the day if some people want to act god let em do it but when it is nerly imposable to find a pure species is there own fult and then find it even harder to get in a curcile of breeders who do have pure breeds cus they have been selling hybreds or not saying wat they actshly are.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

selina20 said:


> They are *NOT* the same species *GENUS* yes but *SPECIES* no


Have one of these:













Seriously...


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Muze said:


> Have one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PMSL :lol2:


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

> well at the end of the day if some people want to act god let em do it


like farmers you mean?


> but when it is nerly imposable to find a pure species is there own fult and then find it even harder to get in a curcile of breeders who do have pure breeds cus they have been selling hybreds or not saying wat they actshly are.


Where as if they do say what they are there is no problem at all, is there?
Cheers
Chris


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Muze said:


> The guy was being truthful...he told a buyer without being prompted and was not trying to hide anything.
> 
> Ive bought from this guy before via another forum and would never think for a second that he would deliberatley sell anything without giving the full information on it.
> 
> *TBH i think people are just trying to cause problems that are not needed for this guy*.


Agreed.

It's like a freaking epidemic on here, right now.

*rolls eyes*


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

spider_mad said:


> If people dont agree with others who are against hybridisation then they can bog off, they dont belong in the community.


Translation; If people don't agree with_ your_ view, they don't 'belong'.

I rather think this is not for you to control or decide, SM.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

enlightenment said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It's like a freaking epidemic on here, right now.
> 
> *rolls eyes*


 
THANKYOU!!! :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:


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## antmac (Jan 28, 2009)

tescos;3599681[COLOR=red said:


> ]like farmers you mean?[/COLOR]
> 
> Where as if they do say what they are there is no problem at all, is there?
> Cheers
> Chris


no farmers breed the prefured qulatiys in a animal not hybreed 2 species


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

antmac said:


> no farmers breed the prefured qulatiys in a animal not hybreed 2 species


Really!
Bovid hybrid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
just one example from many
Cheers
Chris


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## antmac (Jan 28, 2009)

ok then fair point:whistling2:


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## ScottyGurn (Jan 20, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> So it would be better to destroy this life form than to let it live, even as a pet?
> 
> Just because it isn't 'pure'.
> 
> David Duke and Matt Hale would be proud...


that was hitlers motto wasnt it???:whistling2:

if its not pure blood then destroy the race.

hmmm:bash:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Lol.

Death to the hybrids.

14 words....


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## andy07966 (Mar 10, 2009)

Could you breed g. rosea and g. rosea red phase?

P.S. Please don't bite my head off!! :lol2:


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

selina20 said:


> Its only because i wrote on there what it is mated to that is the reason people now know why. The fact he didnt write this in the advert was wrong. Someone would of brought that thinking it was mated to the real thing only to find that the slings are hybrid.
> 
> If he had wrote in the advert to start with i would not of bothered but misleading people like that is out of order IMO.



He didn't mislead you did he?
He told you straight off she was mated with different sp. 

tbh I think this whole thread is ridiculous and some people really need 2 get out more.


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## Toeboe (Dec 28, 2006)

why are avic's hybridised, is it from the wild or man made?


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

tescos said:


> Hi
> Can you elaborate on what you mean here?
> Cheers
> Chris


I can indeed.

The people who have a disregard for taxonomy, classifications, advice and guidance from experienced/established keepers and breeders are the people who will fall at the first hurdle and will receive the negative reputation and feedback they deserve, like a lot of animals nowadays people get into them thinking there is profit to be made, I have been involved in things from corn morphs to royal morphs to retic morphs and have consistently kept inverts, you always get people entering into the game and faltering then failing when they are shown for their true colours.

Cleared that up for you?


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

> The people who have a disregard for taxonomy, classifications,


Hi
Sorry I don't think I was too clear myself. I ment this bit of it because when you say a disregard for it are you meaning not agreeing with the current status of taxonomy or not takeing an interest in it?



> why are avic's hybridised, is it from the wild or man made?


It wouldn't suprise me of incidents happening in the wild where species ranges overlap, but in captivity they are hybridised mainly I suspect because no one really knows excatly what species they have. It happens more often than I think we know, that more than one species get sold as the same species name, and then somewhere down the line they unknowingly get bred together.
This thread is good up to about page 3 or 4 and will show you more or less the kind of problem there is with this genus in the hobby.
The Tarantula Store -> The Genus Avicularia

cheers
Chris


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

tescos said:


> Hi
> Sorry I don't think I was too clear myself. I ment this bit of it because when you say a disregard for it are you meaning not agreeing with the current status of taxonomy or not takeing an interest in it?
> 
> 
> ...


Not taking an interest or not caring about it.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I think we have a clear difference of opinion here. Some feel hybrids are bad and others feel there's no problem. But whilst taxonomy continues, and hybrid breeding continues how are we supposed to come to any clear conclusions. Our holotypes will age and be replaced by what? possible hybrids or WC. And if this continues what country would be willing to accept reintroduction or even supply new blood.

We could have a common purpose, we could help educate and we could help contribute to maintaining species in captivity that might one day be extinct from their natural habitat. But, if all we have to show is a bunch of hybrids (mongrels) then we've lost a valuable opportunity. And possibly we'll have lost the opportunity to access new blood!

As yet the seller, as he has explained, has no hybrids to offer, its a decision for the buyer, if indeed he finds a buyer. Its an experiment that has been done many times in order to find valid conclusions (eg. G. iheringi & G. mollicoma - Postiglioni/Costa) as well as a naturally occuring situations. Its part of the natural evolution but I don't feel its such a naturally acceptable situation within the hobby.

To suggest we personally may already have hybrids is, IMO, rather defeatest. The likelihood sways more to the pure than the hybrid. Surely our objective should be to avoid hybrids, what objective within the hobby is there to creating hybrids? I'd wager rather few outside laboratory conditions which is why people are quite passionate in their responses and why, within each thread I've read of hybridising nobody puts forward an argument that makes me think there's any value in creating them.


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## Toeboe (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm not suggesting its a good thing, but look at the money some people will pay for those ugly wishy washy cornsnake colour morphs, or the serious money asked and paid for python hybrids. There is a market in snake morphs purely because someone somewhere in the dim and distant past messed around with nature.
Here's something to think about. Should someone successfully interbreed the colourful P metallica with the slow and docile G pulchra, i think you would have a queue of people, who arent really bothered about true lineage, willing to buy one. I reckon it goes on from there.
Thankfully breeding T's isnt as straightforward as reptiles.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Hmmn...

I'm worried now that my posts come across somwhat endorsing hybrid T's - not the case. 

Personally, I feel a potentially much greater threat to the hobby is inbreeding rather than hybridisation. 

It would be easy to suggest that because there isn't much published evidence of detrimental effects when line breeding in inverts that it doesn't exist; I'd imagine that eventually some CB lines will become rather seriously inbred and any hopes of introductions back to the wild would actually be detrimental to wild populations.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> Hmmn...
> 
> I'm worried now that my posts come across somwhat endorsing hybrid T's - not the case.


I _didn't_ read it that way. Read to me as if you were simply pointing out the pro's and con's.

Just my 2p worth.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> I _didn't_ read it that way. Read to me as if you were simply pointing out the pro's and con's.
> 
> Just my 2p worth.


I just try to throw in a bit of genetics theory now and again. 

There's a lot of unfair stigma attached to hybrids when in nature they are really useful in stimulating speciation and promoting genetic diversity (as counter-intuitive as that may sound).


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

GRB said:


> I just try to throw in a bit of genetics theory now and again.


Which is totally fine, and as it should be. 

There is nothing wrong with the_ discussion_ of hybrids and genetics, I am quite interested in it, without actually having any desire to do it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wondering/asking, 'What would happen if'... or 'What do you think of this', etc..?

It doesn't mean the person endorses it.


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

Hi


> Not taking an interest or not caring about it.


Not taking an interest or caring much about taxonomy and classifications should NOT be derserving of any negative reputation and feedback what so ever. I remember a time not all that long ago when you can keep spiders for the basic reason that you liked them. Now there seems to be a big thing about things like "Oh you use common names thats not right" and "Oh you can't possibly know what that is because you haven't seen the types etc". Don't get me wrong, I think the work done by those who tackle the taxomic mess is worth while and it is great to see new people coming in and giving it a go as well, but what I really do not like is the some times pure snobery of those who, just because they know a few finer details about a spermatheca etc, think of a basic tarantula keeper as a nobody. Seriously these sort people need a life because although all big and important in the tarantula circle, outside they are just another turd in the street.




> But whilst taxonomy continues, and hybrid breeding continues how are we supposed to come to any clear conclusions. Our holotypes will age and be replaced by what? possible hybrids or WC


Holotypes should obviously be replaced with Wild Caught speciemens that have Proper location data. 



> And if this continues what country would be willing to accept reintroduction or even supply new blood.


reintroduction of inverts is I think highly irresponcible due to the basic fact that we know next to nothing about micro habitates and the relationships between one given invert and the next. Until a better understanding of this I personely think its a big no no.



> We could have a common purpose, we could help educate and we could help contribute to maintaining species in captivity that might one day be extinct from their natural habitat.


Where as I know what you are saying but what if it is a natural extinction?



> but I don't feel its such a naturally acceptable situation within the hobby.


Why not this hobby but in other hobbies for example the Snake hobby it is not really looked so bad upon?



> To suggest we personally may already have hybrids is, IMO, rather defeatest


No it is stateing a fact. To deny it is like like pizzing in the wind.



> The likelihood sways more to the pure than the hybrid.


RED Rumps
Avics 
Heterocrates
(there are more)
Are you sure everytime the male from so and so is the same as your female?



> Surely our objective should be to avoid hybrids, what objective within the hobby is there to creating hybrids?


Only if the hybrid side of the hobby holds no interest for you, and the simple objective of fun and seeing if you can.



> I'd wager rather few outside laboratory conditions which is why people are quite passionate in their responses and why, within each thread I've read of hybridising nobody puts forward an argument that makes me think there's any value in creating them.


So why do you have to have laboratory conditions to have fun and and to see if it can be done?



> I'm worried now that my posts come across somwhat endorsing hybrid T's - not the case.


Although I myself am not worried about this I also am not endorsing hybrid tarantulas. I honesty feel though that the ONLY reason why it should be avoided as much as possible is because of the lazyness of people, and the now rather bad stigma it seems to have that makes people not want to admit to it if they have done it.



> Personally, I feel a potentially much greater threat to the hobby is inbreeding rather than hybridisation.
> 
> It would be easy to suggest that because there isn't much published evidence of detrimental effects when line breeding in inverts that it doesn't exist; I'd imagine that eventually some CB lines will become rather seriously inbred and any hopes of introductions back to the wild would actually be detrimental to wild populations.


Another spin off subject I am completly on the fence in regards to it being ok or not. Basicly there is so much conflicting evidence either way (some of which unpublished) that both arguements for and againts stand up pretty well. 

Sorry for the (another) long post ignor it at will.
Cheers
Chris


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

tescos said:


> I remember a time not all that long ago when you can keep spiders for the basic reason that you liked them. Now there seems to be a big thing about things like "Oh you use common names thats not right" and "Oh you can't possibly know what that is because you haven't seen the types etc". Don't get me wrong, I think the work done by those who tackle the taxomic mess is worth while and it is great to see new people coming in and giving it a go as well, but* what I really do not like is the some times pure snobery of those who, just because they know a few finer details about a spermatheca etc, think of a basic tarantula keeper as a nobody*. Seriously these sort people need a life because although all big and important in the tarantula circle, outside they are just another turd in the street.


*Blinks*

I agree!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

GRB, I think your points make very interesting reading and I value your knowledge with inverts. Any opinion that tries to see both sides of the argument rather than defend a position gains credibility in my eyes.

I think the issues of hybrids in nature is one that may occur to the benefit of the species, perhaps adapting to new environments, predators, temperatures etc. However the same arguments cannot be used in captive environments, its much more inclined to be governed by a financial or aesthetic arguments, or in Chris's case for fun!



> So why do you have to have laboratory conditions to have fun and and to see if it can be done?


You don't, I didn't suggest that you did, I suggested that within the confines of a laboratory experiments like this have their value. Knowing whether hybridising is possible is one thing, raising those hybrids and introducing them into the captive bred population is where the fear is within this thread.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Wow, Chris, what a post.

I agree with most of the sentiments you express. 



> Quote:
> And if this continues what country would be willing to accept reintroduction or even supply new blood.
> reintroduction of inverts is I think highly irresponcible due to the basic fact that we know next to nothing about micro habitates and the relationships between one given invert and the next. Until a better understanding of this I personely think its a big no no.


You can add the fact that CB generally reduces heterozygosity unless well coordinated and thus individuals we breed are probably less genetically fit than WC individuals. If we released captive populations and they bred with the wild type, it could actually do more harm than good.



> Quote:
> but I don't feel its such a naturally acceptable situation within the hobby.
> Why not this hobby but in other hobbies for example the Snake hobby it is not really looked so bad upon?


I also agree here; the situation in reptiles is just an accident waiting to happen. I just can't believe that so many breeders only seem to know basic mendelian ratios and think nothing towards the other genetic effects associated with line breeding and breeding for select characters. *Sighs*.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> GRB, I think your points make very interesting reading and I value your knowledge with inverts. Any opinion that tries to see both sides of the argument rather than defend a position gains credibility in my eyes.


Thanks!  It's just nice to finally be able to apply some of that rather dry "genetics and conservation genetics theory" stuff I sat through last year to something more interesting.


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## $dean (Jan 19, 2009)

*MY EYES!!!!! :shock: :lol2:*


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

> Why not this hobby but in other hobbies for example the Snake hobby it is not really looked so bad upon?


I've avoided the danger of going into other areas and defusing the issue. I'm aware there are arguments for and against hybridising within many species but its often suggested that within inverts there is already so much diversification that it questions the need to produce more. Its also suggested that inverts suffer less than the problems associated with mammals or reptiles. I could start up the subject of dogs but it makes a poor argument when the subject is the hybridising of tarantula and the (non)acceptance of that that has developed within this thread.


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

> I'm aware there are arguments for and against hybridising within many species but its often suggested that within inverts there is already so much diversification that it questions the need to produce more.


But we are talking about tarantulas not all inverts here so the enough diversification arguement means little in respect to why it is ok in snakes and not tarantulas. There are to my mind more known species of snake than there are species of tarantula so where then is the difference?



> Its also suggested that inverts suffer less than the problems associated with mammals or reptiles.


Do you mean in regards to inbreeding? If so then its also been suggested otherwise as well, which is why I'm sat on the fence of this subject as in all honesty I do not know enough about genetics, gene pools and what not to be able to even make a for or againts comment on this.



> I could start up the subject of dogs but it makes a poor argument when the subject is the hybridising of tarantula and the (non)acceptance of that that has developed within this thread.


Yes it would be a poor argument because dogs are all one species but different breeds, and although you get pedergree breeds, cross breeds are just as accepted in the majority of the dog owner population.

Cheers
Chris


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Hey guys is there any chance i could have some referrences to papers and books where you have got your info from. Finding the points raised by Chris and GRB highly interesting and would like to read further. If you could pm me them that would be great. The last few pages have really opened my eyes to some great theories and knowledge. Thanks guys its been a great read


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

> You don't, I didn't suggest that you did, I suggested that within the confines of a laboratory experiments like this have their value. Knowing whether hybridising is possible is one thing, raising those hybrids and introducing them into the captive bred population is where the fear is within this thread.


But for some there is a value of fun and well, just curiosity at the result so just saying hybrid tarantulas only have a value in the confines of a laboratory experiments etc is a bit off I feel.

If that fear wasn't there then I do think people might be a little more honest if they had hybridized tarantulas, done so intently or not. The problem I think is that there is such an attitude towards hybrid tarantulas or the people who may have produced one, pointing them out to be the scum of the earth, that they then get sold as a species...hence where I think most of the mix ups come.
Take away the snobbery attitude and maybe there will be little problem. Alas though, this is all maybes and it could also turn the other way for the worst, but if I am honest I don't think it could get any worse than it is now.
Cheers
Chris


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

selina

Don't think I have refferenced any papers etc, but simple google searches on topics like inbreeding, hybrids, and and other stuff will pull out a fair amount of information. Only problem is they all contradict each other in so many ways. Most of what I have written is what I believe to be common sence because from what I read the main reason hybrids are not accepted is because of a lot of what ifs. But the funny thing is most of the what ifs are already out there just take a look around the boards.
Cheers
Chris


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

tescos said:


> selina
> 
> Don't think I have refferenced any papers etc, but simple google searches on topics like inbreeding, hybrids, and and other stuff will pull out a fair amount of information. Only problem is they all contradict each other in so many ways. Most of what I have written is what I believe to be common sence because from what I read the main reason hybrids are not accepted is because of a lot of what ifs. But the funny thing is most of the what ifs are already out there just take a look around the boards.
> Cheers
> Chris


I shall read up. Thanks for the info and the read.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

selina20 said:


> Hey guys is there any chance i could have some referrences to papers and books where you have got your info from. Finding the points raised by Chris and GRB highly interesting and would like to read further. If you could pm me them that would be great. The last few pages have really opened my eyes to some great theories and knowledge. Thanks guys its been a great read


If I get a chance i'll see if I can find things that are good to read. Some of what I've drawn from is from the undergrad textbook by Mark Ridley (Evolution) and from various lecture notes - I could link the papers, but they are rather dry reads.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> If I get a chance i'll see if I can find things that are good to read. Some of what I've drawn from is from the undergrad textbook by Mark Ridley (Evolution) and from various lecture notes - I could link the papers, but they are rather dry reads.


Lols believe me i study geology if u wana see dry reads read some of them hahaha. 

Think i might have that evolution one so will read up on that.

Thanks a lot :2thumb:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Has anyone ever seen those cross breeds between big cats?

Like the Liger, for example?

Obviously that must have been done captive, since in the wilds I am sure they do not share the same terrain.

It amazes me that they don't see each other as a threat, even if captively done.

Liger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://jakst.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/liger011.jpg


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Has anyone ever seen those cross breeds between big cats?
> 
> Like the Liger, for example?
> 
> ...


Nerys' and Rorys company sell them


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> Nerys' and Rorys company sell them


Yup.

_And_ you get three cream eggs.

Allegedly.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

enlightenment said:


> Yup.
> 
> _And_ you get three cream eggs.
> 
> Allegedly.


you'd need 3 after getting a liger into a 25p ASDA pot.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Yup.
> 
> _And_ you get three cream eggs.
> 
> Allegedly.


Wooooooo cream eggs. Now where do i put the liger lols


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> Wooooooo cream eggs. Now where do i put the liger lols


Right next to yer b/f's Liverpool stuff!


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Right next to yer b/f's Liverpool stuff!


lols he would love that  train the liger to eat footie stuff :whistling2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> lols he would love that  train the liger to eat footie stuff :whistling2:


No.

Train it to eat Mark!


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> No.
> 
> Train it to eat Mark!


Then where will u send ur maniac pedes that escape in the male :lol2:. I heard all so if u ever send me sticky tape it good.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

selina20 said:


> Then where will u send ur maniac pedes that escape in the *male *:lol2:. I heard all so if u ever send me sticky tape it good.


Bit of a Freudian slip there Sel! Is your "male" going to be eaten by a pede?


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

selina20 said:


> Lols believe me i study geology if u wana see dry reads read some of them hahaha.
> 
> Think i might have that evolution one so will read up on that.
> 
> Thanks a lot :2thumb:


Geology? Oh dears....:lol2:

Well, in that case it might be on interest to read the classic paper on hybrid zones by Hewitt:

http://www.esa.ipb.pt/pdf/27.pdf

It's not specifically to do with what we were talking about on the whole issue, but it might be of interest and should explain why lots of people see hybrids as somewhat essential (rather than dirty unclean things).


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> Geology? Oh dears....:lol2:
> 
> Well, in that case it might be on interest to read the classic paper on hybrid zones by Hewitt:
> 
> ...


 
Thankies i might try and add this into some of my palaeontology stuff lols.

Theres nothing wrong with geology lols. Its actually very interesting


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> Then where will u send ur maniac pedes that escape in the male :lol2:. I heard all so if u ever send me sticky tape it good.


That pede was *proper* off it's head.

Admit it though, credit me, it was a good un', right?


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

I must admit. Although I'd never condone such actions, I've always wondered what a P. regalis x metallica would turn out like :hmm:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> That pede was *proper* off it's head.
> 
> Admit it though, credit me, it was a good un', right?


It was horrid lols. Was very pretty but not a nice critter at all. Escape artist was an understatement lmao.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

Remind me again how it jumped on your friend's body!

Now, a pede and a pokie, what a b***** of a hybrid that would be!


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## ph0bia (Feb 21, 2009)

Muze said:


> TBH i think people are just trying to cause problems that are not needed for this guy.


Then don't hybridize. 

These aren't plants, these are animals and hybridization causes difficulties both in the species and then in taxonomy and the hobby.


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## tescos (Mar 9, 2009)

Hi



> These aren't plants,these are animals


Why is it ok in plants and not animals?


> and hybridization causes difficulties both in the species


What difficulties? (I'm talking about in tarantulas here btw)


> and then in taxonomy


Why should it?


> and the hobby.


And that is only because of lazyness and because of the snobby way hybrids are looked upon in the tarantula hobby. 

Cheers
Chris


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Remind me again how it jumped on your friend's body!
> 
> Now, a pede and a pokie, what a b***** of a hybrid that would be!


They opened the container as it was curled up and a flash of light he was on Marks shoulder :O.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> They opened the container as it was curled up and a flash of light he was on Marks shoulder :O.


Feck.

:gasp:

What did he do to get it off?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> Feck.
> 
> :gasp:
> 
> What did he do to get it off?


He coaxed him into a cricket tub put the cricket tub on the side and went to change his pants before he put him back in lmao.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

That could have been well nasty, had he taken a facial bite!

Thankfully he seemed to deal with it well.

How did it die, in the end?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

enlightenment said:


> That could have been well nasty, had he taken a facial bite!
> 
> Thankfully he seemed to deal with it well.
> 
> How did it die, in the end?


We dont know was just sudden . Marks on about getting a S.subsipines if he can talk me around but having Ts and scorps is one thing but man eating many legged crazy inverts is another . That thing was horrid lols.


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

selina20 said:


> We dont know was just sudden . Marks on about getting a S.subsipines if he can talk me around but having Ts and scorps is one thing but man eating many legged crazy inverts is another . That thing was horrid lols.


In fairness, I think that one was ESPECIALLY wired to the moon, more than others I have come across.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

selina20 said:


> We dont know was just sudden . Marks on about getting a S.subsipines if he can talk me around but having Ts and scorps is one thing but man eating many legged crazy inverts is another . That thing was horrid lols.


Get him a S.Gigantea instead, I'll have some ready for sale soon, bit young at the moment.

Those suckers can exceed 30cm but are regularly around the 26-28cm mark.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Young_Gun said:


> Get him a S.Gigantea instead, I'll have some ready for sale soon, bit young at the moment.
> 
> Those suckers can exceed 30cm but are regularly around the 26-28cm mark.


*shudders* I can cope with most inverts except centipedes.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> Get him a S.Gigantea instead, I'll have some ready for sale soon, bit young at the moment.
> 
> Those suckers can exceed 30cm but are regularly around the 26-28cm mark.


Hmmmmmm i might get him one IF he makes sure its double tanked and locked at all times lols. Could you pm me a care sheet or guidelines for this species please. Thanks hun.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Things have a habit of jumping at you and mark LOL


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> Things have a habit of jumping at you and mark LOL


No ur horrid jumping spider decided to try and eat me if u remember  from across the room :gasp::gasp::gasp:


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

garlicpickle said:


> *shudders* I can cope with most inverts except centipedes.


Centys are great animals, they just don't mind if its a locust, mouse or small child they are chowing down on 



selina20 said:


> Hmmmmmm i might get him one IF he makes sure its double tanked and locked at all times lols. Could you pm me a care sheet or guidelines for this species please. Thanks hun.


It will just wait until your not expecting it, get a run up, smash through both tanks and eat any living thing or inanimate object it touches.

But aye will do.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> Centys are great animals, they just don't mind if its a locust, mouse or small child they are chowing down on
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thankies would like to know what im letting Mark have before i commit. thankis.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

selina20 said:


> Thankies would like to know what im letting Mark have before i commit. thankis.













:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


that just made me shiver like hell lols. I think im guna have nightmares.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Young_Gun said:


> :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


oh. my. god :gasp:


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## $dean (Jan 19, 2009)

that be the biggest pede i have ever seen :lol2:


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## enlightenment (Dec 14, 2006)

$dean said:


> that be the biggest pede i have ever seen :lol2:


He is holding it close to the camera, so it big, but maybe not_ quite_ as big as it appears.

That said, it would not surprise me if a species like that could easily eat some species of snake.

At other times, there are doubtless species of snake who would feed on IT!


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## grantgrant (Jan 29, 2009)

im not stupid i do understand the implications of cross breeding (ive seen spiderman lol)but not everyone is a puritan collector of "Specimens" most people are keepers of interesting pets and will rarely breed them. i imagine even the bug nazis would be interested in a cobalt blue with the temprement of a chilean rose (how many of you go ahhhh when you see pet dog that looks like a wolf?) 
hows about regulating captive bred pedigree exotics, and cutting back on importing captured wild animals..


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## grantgrant (Jan 29, 2009)

erm that made way more sence before i realised it was gonna be posted on page 12

yeah great picture of pede..


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

grantgrant said:


> im not stupid i do understand the implications of cross breeding (ive seen spiderman lol)but not everyone is a puritan collector of "Specimens" most people are keepers of interesting pets and will rarely breed them. i imagine even the bug nazis would be interested in a cobalt blue with the temprement of a chilean rose (how many of you go ahhhh when you see pet dog that looks like a wolf?)
> hows about regulating captive bred pedigree exotics, and cutting back on importing captured wild animals..


They are cutting back as Chile is closing its exports and Mexico have already done that. Its only really pet shops and breeders who require rare species for breeding purposes that have wild caught.


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