# White Boxer Puppies



## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

My friends boxer had puppies, and about 5 of them turned out white, he went to KC register them and instead of KC registering them, he was advised to get the white ones put to sleep, why will they happily put a dog to sleep because its got white fur, but they have banned docking tails?

it seems mad to me. :whistling2:


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## becky89 (Nov 24, 2009)

Omg thats stupid... The KC really annoy me sometimes!


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

omg the :censor:! and yet until recently they happily accepted dogs that couldnt give birth normaly :devil:


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## cabrera (Jun 28, 2009)

tbh these days the KC seem to silently encourage the neglect of dogs rather than stcik to their original mission statement.

I am not surprised your friend was advised to do this unfortunately it is not a one of incident.


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

cabrera said:


> tbh these days the KC seem to silently encourage the neglect of dogs rather than stcik to their original mission statement.
> 
> I am not surprised your friend was advised to do this unfortunately it is not a one of incident.





miss_ferret said:


> omg the :censor:! and yet until recently they happily accepted dogs that couldnt give birth normaly :devil:





becky89 said:


> Omg thats stupid... The KC really annoy me sometimes!


 
yeah its ridiculous D:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Daisyy said:


> My friends boxer had puppies, and about 5 of them turned out white, he went to KC register them and instead of KC registering them, he was advised to get the white ones put to sleep, why will they happily put a dog to sleep because its got white fur, but they have banned docking tails?
> 
> it seems mad to me. :whistling2:


Well, there's two reasons they might have recommended it.

One, because a solid white boxer may well be a disqualifying fault in show. This isn't a legit reason to euthanase a dog, but I don't know whether they can be *registered*.

Two, because solid white boxers have a higher instance of being partially or totally deaf, and may have other problems - being solid white isn't just a paint job for most mammals. *I* wouldn't euthanase a dog just because it was deaf, but a whole litter of deaf pups is going to be very difficult to train.


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

Although this doesn't surprise me in the slightest, every time I hear of something like this I feel sick. I have no problem with people breeding whatever they damn well want provided these animals go to people/homes/whatever that actually want them. It's supply and demand as far as I'm concerned and yes, while I would never contemplate breeding as I've never bought into all the 'breed standard' stuff and just see a dog as a species that is already taking over rescue centres everywhere, it's also something I would never judge anyone else for doing... apart from in instances like this that is (in regards to the KC, not your friend!) How anyone could advocate killing (or sorry, 'culling') something because it simply does not adhere to what a human dictates it should look like is beyond me. I personally think white boxers are gorgeous and didn't realise there were such problems surrounding them until I researched it just now. 

Hope your friend finds homes for them all.


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Two, because solid white boxers have a higher instance of being partially or totally deaf, and may have other problems - being solid white isn't just a paint job for most mammals. *I* wouldn't euthanase a dog just because it was deaf, but a whole litter of deaf pups is going to be very difficult to train.


i researched deaf dogs earlier, apparently its pretty easy to teach a dog sign training, but yeah i have to admit it would be hard to selll a deaf puppy, still shouldnt be put down


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## Kerriebaby (May 12, 2009)

I would love the challenge of a deaf dog....maybes not a Boxer tho!

KC while on one hand condemns white boxers to death, actively allows dogs with genetic conditions to be bred (Ridgebacks. The Ridge is actually a defect, "ridge less" pups are PTS, while their less healthy siblings are euthanised...because they don't meet the breed standard...)

KC suck


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## jazzywoo (Sep 24, 2009)

Kerriebaby said:


> I would love the challenge of a deaf dog....maybes not a Boxer tho!
> 
> KC while on one hand condemns white boxers to death, actively allows dogs with genetic conditions to be bred (Ridgebacks. The Ridge is actually a defect, "ridge less" pups are PTS, while their less healthy siblings are euthanised...because they don't meet the breed standard...)
> 
> KC suck


 i used to have a foster deaf collie she was a night mare :flrt: she was trained to respond to sign but it was really hard work full of mischief and i miss her so much it was a challange but very rewarding :flrt:

as for putting these pups to sleep i think that was a horried thing to say :devil:


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*white boxers*

unless things have changed recently you can register them but not exhibit them.I'm extremly surprised that the kc would openly suggest euthanasia.You can register breeds that do not whelp un assisted also.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

when with my ex his brother bred boxers and he could not register white boxers and was told alot breeders put them down as there not worth as much its the same with gsds you can register black and tan and black but not white


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

adamntitch said:


> when with my ex his brother bred boxers and he could not register white boxers and was told alot breeders put them down as there not worth as much its the same with gsds you can register black and tan and black but not white


You can KC register white Shepherds but you cant show them


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

my friend has a deaf dally and she knows so much, such a clever dog and it doesnt effect her..for the slightly higher chance of deafness and the fact that deaf dogs can be trained as successfully as dogs with perfect hearing means that putting them to sleep "because they might be deaf" is a bloody cop out


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I think the KC have pretty twisted ideals. In my opinion, anyone who would end the life of an animal, just incase it may be deaf, is cruel.


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## juliedsnare (Feb 27, 2010)

*how sick can some vets b*



Daisyy said:


> My friends boxer had puppies, and about 5 of them turned out white, he went to KC register them and instead of KC registering them, he was advised to get the white ones put to sleep, why will they happily put a dog to sleep because its got white fur, but they have banned docking tails?
> 
> it seems mad to me. :whistling2:


i love boxers what ever coulour what will happen i would love to have a white 1
:flrt:


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## Cheeky-x (Feb 2, 2009)

Its because you cant show white boxers. Also the health problems they are prone to is awful, My uncle had a white and he spent thousands on him to try and sort him out.


My friend breeds boxers and she has minimal white gene in her line at all. Only because of this....But she only breeds to improve the breed and produce some bloody nice dogs,not all for the money. 

I personally like white boxers. But I'm not really into showing dogs so i would be quite happy to have them as a pet.


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## gravitation (Nov 4, 2009)

As others have said i'm not overly suprised but equally as disgusted.

I wouldn't put them down but i would've advised your friend to select better examples of the breed before getting pups out of them just so that we can try and prevent such defects from even happening.

I can't stand showing, what was once a good example of a healthy breed is now down to ego, aesthetics and stupid little details.

Tail docking is illegal here now, i'm just wondering if that is the case where some of you guys are? Be it America, UK whatever..


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## girlsnotgray (Dec 28, 2009)

Kerriebaby said:


> (Ridgebacks. The Ridge is actually a defect, "ridge less" pups are PTS, while their less healthy siblings are euthanised...because they don't meet the breed standard...)
> 
> KC suck


 
Most breeders sell their ridgeless ridgebacks - normally for about £200 than the usual £900 (That is what our friend does anyway)


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## tish5566 (Apr 18, 2008)

You can register white boxers,and they are not all deaf..here's mine


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*white boxers*



tish5566 said:


> You can register white boxers,and they are not all deaf..here's mine
> image


He's lovely,great that hes a healthy specimen.The kc is rarely concerned about colour and usually registers pups of any breed even when its not a colour that can't be shown such as black and tan staffords.You can't register merle dachsunds because of health problems associated with the colour.Some one local to me has bred two white staffords together and the whole litter is deaf,how selfish and irresbonsible is that.


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## reptara (Feb 18, 2010)

How crude, and cruel, of the KC to recommend to put the litter down. I can (kind of) understand them not allowing a dog to show and even be registered if it definately has health problems because of some of the snobbish ethics they hold, however when they are not even sure the dog has any problems, then they should have to delay registration. I feel to actually suggest a dog's death is barbaric. 

I wish your friend the best of luck with her littler, they are a lovely breed of dog in any colour or ability.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Mite they be starting to say no to white boxer to state that they disapprove of breeding from them ?.And that's why they maybe not registering them.

*MYTH* 
*All White Boxers are deaf and are not trainable.* 

*FACT* 
*Although there is a higher incidence of deafness when a Boxer is white (approximately 18% of whites), not all are deaf. Deaf Boxers can be trained using a variety of methods including hand signals, sign language, flashlights and more. Training any Boxer, hearing or deaf, requires time, patience and understanding.* 

Beleave it or not white English bull terriers have this same problem.Yet white English bull terriers are commom in the ring.

This is in refrance to the English bull terrier.


> All puppies should be checked for deafness, which occurs in 20% of* pure white dogs* and 1.3% of colored dogs and is difficult to notice, especially in a relatively young puppy.


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## Sziren (Mar 25, 2008)

gazz said:


> Mite they be starting to say no to white boxer to state that they disapprove of breeding from them ?.And that's why they maybe not registering them.
> 
> *MYTH*
> *All White Boxers are deaf and are not trainable.*
> ...


Thank you for adding some facts to this thread.
Must admit, and probably apologise now, I am very protective of white boxers and the false rumours that are attached to them. So I get quite passionate when I reply.

Personally, I have owned, shown and bred boxers for the past 23 years. The first boxer joined my family when I was 8, and I have had them since.
Over my time with boxers, I have personally owned 3 solid whites (no pathes of brindle/red) and NONE were deaf nor did they have any illnesses related to the colour white. Only one had to be PTS at the age of 8. He was a rescue, and came to me at the age of 4 - And I was to be his 8th owner. The previous owner was a male alcoholic who used to use my dog as a football after a few gallons of vodka too much. Affe (RIP darling) had been kicked and beaten up so much it caused permanent damage to him body, and by the time he was 8 it was time to let him. He had severe hip dysplasia too, the X-rays showed he hardly had a joint left. The Vet couldn't understand how he could still walk.... but that's another story.

Through out my life with boxers, I have only personally known 1 deaf white boxer (Charlie), and heard of/met 3 more through friends. Whilst breeding boxers, approximately 10 years, I never had a deaf white puppy.
But I have have had some beautiful white puppies, no health problems what so ever!

Deafness is carried on the white gene in dogs, and it's not particular to a specific breed. It affects them all, as above mentioned the english bull terrier, GSD's and dalmations (just to name a few).

In regards to KC registering. It can be done, however the Kennel Club in this country does not seem to be too keen on registering (and doing their jobs) when it comes to dogs they class as 'less worthy'. In Sweden (my homeland) white boxers have been registered for years and years (top of my head, I cannot recall the year, but Affe was registered and he was born 13/04/1989) can now also be shown. Talk about years ahead.

The reason not many white boxers are not registered is because the breeders choose not to do it. It costs money to register a pup, and breeders don't want to spend the money on putting their name and affix against a dog that cannot compete and should not be bred from. They want their name to be carried by a dog that does well in the show ring or what ever he/she competes in. I mean who wouldn't?

Someone mentioned earlier that their pal bred 'low white' genes.... what a lotta bull! There is no such thing. It's simple genetics. Don't put a flashy brindle/red to another flashy brindle/red! Less white on the parents = less chance of white pups. Once you have done it for a while, you can also spot those less flashy that may carry the white gene based on their breeding, by looking at their toes. I can go on for hours, but just bore yous all, and probably end up talking in circles...lol

Any hows, if you were nearer I would have bought them all! 
I love the white boxers, and currently have 2 males - Nico ( 8 and Alfie (3).


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

I'd like to know if your friend was toldout right to have them destroyed, or, was it suggested as an option.

As there is a big differents were I come from, between telling someone to do it, and saying it is an option to concidder. 

I love all this kc bashing, yet not one of you has mentioned the breed clubs, who, it could be argued are even more responsible for the state of some breeds, than an organisation whose job it is to register them.

The breed clubs write the breed standards, not the kc.
It was the ridgeback club/society's ethics that allowed breeders to cull perfectly healthy puppies, not the kc's. 
It is the breed clubs that decide if certain colours are accepted into the standard, not the kc.
It is the breeders who breed the dogs, not the kc.
The kc judges are responsible for choosing dogs with exageritions, breeders are responsible for continuing to breed them, if breeders stopped and said no, this isn't acceptable, and decided not to breed from those dogs, then the problems of some breeds, wouldn't have arisen, simple. They are both responsible. 
Puppy farms and byb's, are responsible as well, breeding dogs with no thought to health or temperament, and I can say, with certainty, that they have far more of an inpact than the comparatively small number of dodgy show breeders. 

The blame for the state of some breeds, doesn't lie squarely on the shoulders of the kc. They are responsible in a way, but so are breed clubs, back yard breeders and puppy farms, the latter 2 I'd say have the most to answer for.
People who want to blame it all on the kc, need to realise that, it isn't as black and white, as the bbc would have them believe.


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

Ref white boxers and def dogs.

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered if a dog was def, as has beenmentioned, they can be trained successfully as can any dog, with the right owner.
I don't think white boxers shouldbe bred from though.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Personally, I find it really hard to believe that upon recieving registration documents the KC would then make an effort to contact the breeder to suggest putting white dogs to sleep...


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

midori said:


> Personally, I find it really hard to believe that upon recieving registration documents the KC would then make an effort to contact the breeder to suggest putting white dogs to sleep...





Tazer said:


> I'd like to know if your friend was toldout right to have them destroyed, or, was it suggested as an option.
> 
> As there is a big differents were I come from, between telling someone to do it, and saying it is an option to concidder.
> 
> ...


 
just going by what he said, he was indeed advised to put the white ones to sleep, dont shoot the messenger. if you research it you will also find there are several cases of this :bash:


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## Sziren (Mar 25, 2008)

Daisyy said:


> just going by what he said, he was indeed advised to put the white ones to sleep, dont shoot the messenger. if you research it you will also find there are several cases of this :bash:


Not shooting the messenger, we are just passionate about dogs.
I am totally gobsmacked that the Kennel Club would say such a thing, and hope that your friend told them where to shove it!! 

Still, I hope this means he will NOT kill his white pups, and that he will instead sell them onto loving new homes, where colour doesn't matter.

And as someone said, I don't agree with breeding white boxers either, because of what I said earlier, as such I never KC reg a white pup. They were sold with the same health guarantee as their 'coloured' siblings, with a hand written (and signed) pedigree for those that wanted one, Free insurance and a puppy pack. I would sell them for half the price, as that's what every one seemed to do at the time. I did refuse a couple of people, as just didn't feel right.... as some were just looking for a 'cheap' dog.

I have recently seen ads tho were white boxers are demanding the same price as a coloured one.... I find that odd, but that's just the way I have 'been brought up'.


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

Sziren said:


> Not shooting the messenger, we are just passionate about dogs.
> I am totally gobsmacked that the Kennel Club would say such a thing, and hope that your friend told them where to shove it!!
> 
> Still, I hope this means he will NOT kill his white pups, and that he will instead sell them onto loving new homes, where colour doesn't matter.
> ...


yeahh all the puppies have homes waitingg, and it was strange there was so many whitess:gasp: he bred a brindle and a red, both with little white, must have had white geness xD


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## mizz_honesty (Dec 25, 2009)

Out of interest, are white boxers more prone to other health problems besides deafness? Me and my partner will eventually be getting a dog and he fancies a white boxer so just trying to do as much research as possible!


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Daisyy said:


> My friends boxer had puppies, and about 5 of them turned out white, he went to KC register them and instead of KC registering them, he was advised to get the white ones put to sleep, .


Who by? Not the KC I am quite sure.


Where did he "go" to register them?
It is just a case of filling in forms either paper or online and no discussion is entered into at all .... it sounds as though the story has become a little confused as the way the system works this just couldn't happen ..... (plus teh KC would want them to be registered as is more ££££ for them - they have no issues whatsoever with registering unshowable coloured dogs ....)


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## Emsylove (Mar 16, 2009)

they should just sell em vier newspaper


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## Daisyy (Jan 15, 2010)

JulieNoob said:


> Who by? Not the KC I am quite sure.
> 
> 
> Where did he "go" to register them?
> It is just a case of filling in forms either paper or online and no discussion is entered into at all .... it sounds as though the story has become a little confused as the way the system works this just couldn't happen ..... (plus teh KC would want them to be registered as is more ££££ for them - they have no issues whatsoever with registering unshowable coloured dogs ....)


i say again i didnt get much detail, just what he told me, i'll ask him details if you would like.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Daisyy said:


> i say again i didnt get much detail, just what he told me, i'll ask him details if you would like.


I would certainly be very interested - just the way it sounds .. is not the way it normally happens, although LOL when your friend told you this, I am sure he wasn't expecting it to be debated massively online


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Fenwoman on here used to breed Boxers & she has, or said she would, put any white puppies to sleep. Ask her take on it.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*deafness*



mizz_honesty said:


> Out of interest, are white boxers more prone to other health problems besides deafness? Me and my partner will eventually be getting a dog and he fancies a white boxer so just trying to do as much research as possible!


yes there is a higher incidence of deafness,not just in this breed though.It should be obvious to the breeder from around 4 weeks if a pup is deaf,you can check for yourself by making a noise when the pup is not looking and checking for a response.If you get one,don't breed from it and don't be conned into paying a high price because they are 'rare'.If anything you should pay less.Other than that there is no reason not to get your white boxer and enjoy him/her.


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## Sziren (Mar 25, 2008)

sarahc said:


> If you get one,don't breed from it and don't be conned into paying a high price because they are 'rare'.


This reminds me of the comments we used to get some 10-15 years ago, when most white pups were culled..... people always asked what my white boxers were, so we used to say 'Very rare himalayan boxers!!' rofl

White boxers are a lot more common these days, as most breeders (proper kennels or even joe blogg's) have realised they are still A BOXER!
A truly fantastic breed, clowns of the dog world!

*mizz_honesty - *White boxers are NOT prone to more illnesses or issues than a red or brindle boxer. Deafness is carried on the white gene in dogs, as such deafness occurs within many breeds - i.e. dalmations, english bull terrier etc. Just seems to be shouted about more when it comes to white boxers. The only boxer I have lost due to illness was just recently, my DelBoy, a redbrindle boy. I had to have him PTS. He was diagnosed with lymphoma when he was two, and he had it for 4 years before it got to the stage we couldn't do more for him. At no point did he suffer or feel pain, as I promised him that from day one!

There is plenty of boxer clubs on the internet, my favourite when it comes to white boxers - The White Stuff - goes through all the myths and facts about the white boxer. Hope this helps.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

Sziren said:


> Deafness is carried on the white gene in dogs, as such deafness occurs within many breeds - i.e. dalmations, english bull terrier etc. Just seems to be shouted about more when it comes to white boxers.


 I wonder if that's because a white boxer is obvious at birth where as a bull terrier or dalmation litter would all be white at birth with nothing to distinguish one from another.By the time it was obvious it would take a strong stomach to cull one.I had a deaf french bulldog who was pied but we did know when we got him at 8 weeks old that he was unable to hear.Just had him neutered and had him as a pet.


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Fenwoman on here used to breed Boxers & she has, or said she would, put any white puppies to sleep. Ask her take on it.


and she calls her self a breeder, more like a murder. ppl like that SHOULD not be breeding dogs Sick soo sick. sick sick that made me sooo mad that someone who calls them self a animal lover could kill innocent animals 

yes i have a white boxer and he is just as good as the other boxers. As to health i wouldnt say there more prone to anything. Yea deafness but like other ppl said on here common in white breed x


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## NicolaMe (Nov 2, 2006)

If you go on any reputable Boxer Rescue website ie. Northern Rose Rescuoe you can see the facts for yourselves re: white boxers.

You will find that any boxer, whatever colour is 99% of the time deaf anyways. And here is our white boxer who is definitely not deaf.


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

NicolaMe said:


> If you go on any reputable Boxer Rescue website ie. Northern Rose Rescuoe you can see the facts for yourselves re: white boxers.
> 
> You will find that any boxer, whatever colour is 99% of the time deaf anyways. And here is our white boxer who is definitely not deaf.
> 
> image


thats not true, that most boxers are deaf


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

clairebear1984 said:


> thats not true, that most boxers are deaf


 
I think she means 99% have selective hearing:lol2:


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

yea thats true lol x


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## NicolaMe (Nov 2, 2006)

clairebear1984 said:


> thats not true, that most boxers are deaf


 
its called sarcasm.......i have 2 boxers and 99% of the time they dont listen:lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

NicolaMe said:


> If you go on any reputable Boxer Rescue website ie. Northern Rose Rescuoe you can see the facts for yourselves re: white boxers.
> 
> You will find that any boxer, whatever colour is 99% of the time deaf anyways. And here is our white boxer who is definitely not deaf.
> 
> image


What a beauty! And great to see a Boxer with its natural full-length tail! :2thumb:


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## Sziren (Mar 25, 2008)

That is one pretty girlie, and yeah they do have a thing about selective hearing... All of mine is. or has been suffering from that condition.:lol2:


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## Kerriebaby (May 12, 2009)

girlsnotgray said:


> Most breeders sell their ridgeless ridgebacks - normally for about £200 than the usual £900 (That is what our friend does anyway)



some do...certainly not all tho


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## reptara (Feb 18, 2010)

Your boxer is gorgeous 
I agree about selective hearing, mine most definately has selective hearing when he wants to, but, I wouldn't change him for the world


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## mizz_honesty (Dec 25, 2009)

Sziren said:


> *mizz_honesty - *White boxers are NOT prone to more illnesses or issues than a red or brindle boxer. Deafness is carried on the white gene in dogs, as such deafness occurs within many breeds - i.e. dalmations, english bull terrier etc. Just seems to be shouted about more when it comes to white boxers. The only boxer I have lost due to illness was just recently, my DelBoy, a redbrindle boy. I had to have him PTS. He was diagnosed with lymphoma when he was two, and he had it for 4 years before it got to the stage we couldn't do more for him. At no point did he suffer or feel pain, as I promised him that from day one!
> 
> There is plenty of boxer clubs on the internet, my favourite when it comes to white boxers - The White Stuff - goes through all the myths and facts about the white boxer. Hope this helps.


 Thank you very much for the link I shall check it out! I wasn't trying to imply they did have more health problems because of being white just wondered as I have only just started to seriously try and research into the breed!


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## sqweg (Mar 5, 2009)

We had a white boxer a long time ago. I was only a kid but I remember my mam and my sister trained her with sign language.
Also when she ignored their signals our rough collie would go over and nudge her to get her to 'listen'.
It was funny when people asked what she was called and my mam would just wave her arms around like a loony. Then explain the dog was deaf and responded to hand/arm signals.
She was actually called Chaz.

She could hear the old trim phones though, the ones that made a trilling sound when they rang, she would pick up the handset when ours rang.
We often got people saying they had had rude, panting replies when they had rang the house.

She was from a litter of boxers that had 4 white pups in it. The breeder was going to kill the white ones, he was going to drown them, so our 'provi' bloke brought them to my mam without even warning her. The other three went to good homes, they could hear, we kept the deaf one.
In her lifetime she got a reaction from a bee sting and nearly died, ate my fathers medication and spent 3 weeks in the vets and almost died again and had some silly allergies but from what I've heard none of this is any different to a boxer that can hear!!!!!
OH!!! She also jumped through our kitchen window to get out to my sister...the window was closed at the time.
She turned our cooker on and nearly caused a fire and also chewed everything in sight from when we got her to when she died.

I remember her being damned hard work, usual for boxers though, she lived until she was almost 15 years old.

My mam always says boxers are puppies until they are 14 then they die!!!!!


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## kirksandallchinchillas (Sep 29, 2009)

I should make a formal complaint to the KC about this - I doubt it is KC policy to tell breeders to kill all non-standard puppies. They should discipline the member of staff who said this.

The KC code of ethics does not mention that white dogs should be euthanised....imagine the upset if it did, especially as it is trying to be more PC


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

kirksandallchinchillas said:


> I should make a formal complaint to the KC about this - I doubt it is KC policy to tell breeders to kill all non-standard puppies. They should discipline the member of staff who said this.
> 
> The KC code of ethics does not mention that white dogs should be euthanised....imagine the upset if it did, especially as it is trying to be more PC


It certainly doesn't help the KC's image, especially after the trouble that TV programme brought to them.


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