# pokie bite report



## Noz2010 (Apr 27, 2010)

Found this on the net, I think everyone should have a read...

I recently received a very disturbing bite report (Poecilotheria striata) that was much worse than others I had ever heard before. Previously I'd expressed the opinion that warnings about Poecilotheria bites were overstated - I've changed my mind.

I was bit by a 5"+ Mysore Ornamental while I was taking some of the substrate 
out of the jar I was temporarily keeping it in (around 5pm). I accidentally 
touched its leg and she ran straight to the top of the jar. I quickly tried 
to cover the jar with my hand but like all Poecilotheria species she was so 
fast she ran onto my hand and the second she got on my hand she sunk her 
fangs in-on the top of my left hand right my pointer and middle knuckle. She 
stayed on my hand for about 15-20 seconds then I flung her off my hand back 
into the jar. The bite felt like a bee sting but about 50X worse. About 20 
minutes later my hand swelled up twice its size but the pain wasn't that bad. 
Half an hour after that I started to get an immense burning feeling in the 
top of my hand and in the middle of my palm but the swelling started to go 
down. As time went by the pain traveled to my fingers and into my wrist and 
I had a tingling/painful stream going straight up my arm going into my chest. 
I started to get really tired and almost passed out but I kept myself awake. 
About 5 hours after I was bitten the pain in my hand became unbearable. It 
felt like I had a red hot knife going straight through the middle of my hand 
and my fingers felt like they were smashed with hammers. I took benadryl 
among other things so I could try to sleep through the pain. The pain was so 
intense that it wouldn't let me sleep. I finally passed out around 7 in the 
morning. When I woke up around 1pm the pain was easily ignorable so I 
thought the worst was over. About 5 hours later I was at work and my legs 
started to get sore. After a while all my muscles got sore and I was walking 
like I was 95 years old and I started getting minor cramps in my calves. I 
got home about 9pm and went straight to bed. Shortly after I started getting 
cramps in my feet that were ridiculously painful and the joints in my hands 
and knees were sore. The rest of the night I would wake up to these painful 
cramps taking turns in all my muscles up and down my body from my feet 
muscles straight up to my jaw muscles (every single muscle in my body went 
through these cramps-I'm not exaggerating). My jaw muscles clenched shut and 
I couldn't open my mouth for about 10 minutes. Around 11am the next morning 
I was paralyzed for about 2+ hours. Any time I would move any part of my 
body it would immediately cramp up. Once the cramps stopped I could hardly 
move because my muscles were so sore and if I moved my arms, legs, feet... in 
certain directions they would cramp so I had to move carefully. By that 
night I was still getting cramps but they weren't as painful or frequent. 
For the next two weeks I was still getting cramps in my legs and pain in my 
hands and joints. I also noticed that I lost some muscle mass in my chest. 
Then I woke up and my left shoulder joint was in intense pain. After two 
weeks of still having symptoms from the bite and the feeling that I was 
melting away and now with this pain in my shoulder I decided to go to the 
doctor. I happen to know a Doctor from India (where the Mysore Ornamental is 
from) who worked in India and treated many tarantula and snake bites. He put 
me on steroids and pain killers and ran a bunch of blood tests. This 
happened in the beginning August and now I am fine but occasionally get 
cramps in my legs and hands. 

Josh Peacock <[email protected]>



The severity of the bite made me feel that it would be irresponsible to not post a warning here. Though I had previously heard three or four reports of medium-term (a couple weeks) effects of Poecilotheria venom in the form of cramping and muscle problems, this case was much worse.

As pretty as they are, I must STRONGLY recommend against anyone, except very experienced keepers who are aware of the risks from getting any Poecilotheria species. I repeat, unless you are experienced and are willing to take the risk, DO NOT get a Poecilotheria. I'll go ahead and extend a warning to all species with a history of "hot" bites. Old-world tarantulas, as a rule, are not suitable for beginners. They should espescially not be sold to kids, and if you have Poecilotheria or other bitey tarantuals and have children in your home, it is very important that they know to stay away from them.

Please consider getting a more suitable pet species instead. Avicularia are wonderful spiders (my favorite!) and they've never put anyone in the hospital. Species like B. smithi are really popular because they're great spiders, not because they're boring! Look at them -- they're cool! You don't have to get some exotic species to prove you're a big tough guy.


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## Dan99 (Aug 5, 2009)

I have seen this report many times. It still sends shivers down my spine lol.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

ermmm I had'nt read this bite report before....... not nice to have gone through.... I think this lesson will teach the guy not to go putting bare hands in a sweety jar carrying a Striata, common sense would say to me, if you want to remove substrate then remove the spider first using a safe and proven technique like cupping. I own a 7 or 8 inch Striata and nothing on gods Earth would make me start putting hands in its enclsure unless it was injured..... He obviously had no idea of there capabilities....or plain stupid!!!


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't think I'll be getting one of those. :lol2:


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## AdieSWA (Jun 9, 2010)

This shouldnt put people of getting Pokies, but should definitely show people that they need to respect these beautiful spiders which he clearly didnt, he went poking (excuse the pun) around with his bare hands around this spider and didnt show it the respect it deserved, and also wasnt very prepared if he was doing maintenance in there then I tend to have a "catch cup" or cricket tub ready for any that try to bolt.

hopefully he has learnt his lesson now


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

vivalabam said:


> I don't think I'll be getting one of those. :lol2:


why is this Vivalabum, are you not sure you would treat it with the respect it deserves ???

My point is... if you treat it with the respect it deserves then you should NEVER have a problem really....


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## Oldcorn (Jun 26, 2009)

Ive seen this report a few times! 

I've been bitten, yet I still keep species that posess a potent bite... I find the thrill amazing! Not saying that I encourage them to bite or threat by any means.


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Dr3d said:


> why is this Vivalabum, are you not sure you would treat it with the respect it deserves ???
> 
> My point is... if you treat it with the respect it deserves then you should NEVER have a problem really....


No not at all, I'd just rather get a spider that won't put me in hospital, accidents do happen. :whistling2:


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

vivalabam said:


> No not at all, I'd just rather get a spider that won't put me in hospital, accidents do happen. :whistling2:


 
Well yes if accidents do happen, I agree with you dont go getting any!!!


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Dr3d said:


> Well yes if accidents do happen, I agree with you dont go getting any!!!


Exactly, and I'd never put my family at that kind of risk, fair enough if I get bitten it wouldn't be too nice, but I'd never bring in something that could harm anyone in the house. Maybe that's just me being to caring. :lol2:


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## TCBT (Jul 11, 2010)

this person clearly did not have any intensions of understanding this species, yea they will bite "BIG suprize"...

when i do poecilotheria maintanence i do it with the upmost respect same as any other tarantula, some of you have seen my "Restraint grab" with the formosa, ill do this with any tarantula, because well its in the name "Restraint", the fact of the matter is, the poeci should have been removed safely not flung...

if i get bit i dont "Fling" my T's, yes accidents happen, but would you consider it an accident if someone came into your house, a strange person, 200 times bigger than you are, no we all would react the same way... this post should have included "It was my fault"


if im bit ill live, and so will my T.... is it the spider's fault .. no it aint ... is it our fault YES...

as for vivalabam, she said she didnt want to get one, not because she wouldnt respect the spider, but maybe more the potent venom. and the fact she noes from experience she has to interact with them, i wouldnt say its a lack of disrespect, id say more of a case of interacting with a potent spider....

this guy had not intensionally ment for this to happen, but if he had chose an enclosure that would allow him space to work, he would have not startled the spider into taking such drastic actions and he would have not touched the back legs of the spider... 2nd thing, why on earth would you not remove the spider if you're taking substrate out ???

dont make no sence what so ever :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks TCBT. : victory:

I didn't mean I'm not getting one because I'm going to stick my hand in and poke it, I'd just rather not get one that has venom that can do that to someone, I never touch any of my Ts and am always very careful with them even though they are only slings. :lol2:


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## FreakOonique (Oct 1, 2008)

Some people are just plain stupid.

When I do tank maintainence for my big 9" LS AF Fasciata, I always make sure she's inside her branch and block the end up. So if she does freak out and decides she wants to taste me then she can't. Simple.

It just takes a little common sense and respect for these spiders. Some people are just asking to be bitten :whistling2:


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

TCBT said:


> this person clearly did not have any intensions of understanding this species, yea they will bite "BIG suprize"...
> 
> when i do poecilotheria maintanence i do it with the upmost respect same as any other tarantula, some of you have seen my "Restraint grab" with the formosa, ill do this with any tarantula, because well its in the name "Restraint", the fact of the matter is, the poeci should have been removed safely not flung...
> 
> ...


Totally agree with everything you have said, I highlighted a section above... *His hand brushed the leg of the spider* anyone who has repect for this species or for any hot bite T would NEVER unless stupid enough to handle them allow there hand to brush the T..... I think since I have been on this site, personally I have read numerous people STATING clearly to use TONGS!!!! DONT try an HANDLE!!! 

All Tarantulas have the ability to give you a real nasty bite, I admit that some are much worse than others.... but my whole point is..... Respect the animal you are working with and you wont go far wrong, disrespect them and expect to get hurt simple!!!...


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## TCBT (Jul 11, 2010)

Dr3d said:


> Totally agree with everything you have said, I highlighted a section above... *His hand brushed the leg of the spider* anyone who has repect for this species or for any hot bite T would NEVER unless stupid enough to handle them allow there hand to brush the T..... I think since I have been on this site, personally I have read numerous people STATING clearly to use TONGS!!!! DONT try an HANDLE!!!
> 
> All Tarantulas have the ability to give you a real nasty bite, I admit that some are much worse than others.... but my whole point is..... Respect the animal you are working with and you wont go far wrong, disrespect them and expect to get hurt simple!!!...



:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: ^^^^ exactly well said :notworthy:


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

I've just ordered my first Pokie and I've read loads, asked loads and had some very very good advice from members on here. It's all about respecting and understanding what you have and don't take stupid risks. I know if my Ornata is near the top of the jar (yes a sweet jar) I'll just feed it another day! I've been told to use a little water spray as well so I'll just use my common and treat it with respect - like I do with all of my spiders.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

I agree 100% to this-



> is it our fault YES...





> Some people are just plain stupid.


but the last one I would add people who get bitten by their pet tarantulas are just plain stupid.


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## tarantulamatt (Nov 12, 2009)

Dr3d said:


> ermmm I had'nt read this bite report before....... not nice to have gone through.... I think this lesson will teach the guy not to go putting bare hands in a sweety jar carrying a Striata, common sense would say to me, if you want to remove substrate then remove the spider first using a safe and proven technique like cupping. I own a 7 or 8 inch Striata and nothing on gods Earth would make me start putting hands in its enclsure unless it was injured..... He obviously had no idea of there capabilities....or plain stupid!!!


im with you mate,

i have 3 formosa's 2 adult females and 1 mature male. i respect them so much because i know what they are like when moveing them i use leather gloves. make sure i shut the door

im not saying your safe but its better than what he did


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

I've read that one before, but y'know, you keep fast and bitey animals you should take precautions.

It shouldn't put people off pokies, it should just ensure they give it proper consideration first. To say no one but the most experienced keepers should keep pokies (by far not the worst bites) seems somewhat excessive. Though I do agree that kids shouldn't have them.

I'd stop before I said anyone deserved that, but I'll agree that he was at fault... Don't do pokie maintenance with your bare hands, don't work on the lawnmower with it switched on and don't cross the road without looking... common sense.

Having said that, my grandpa did the lawnmower one and lost all the fingers on one hand.


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## kim1973 (Jan 19, 2010)

*not good*

sorry this person took two weeks to see a doctor when you get bitten by any ts should consult a doctor just to be on the safe side these things happen but should of used common sense in which he clearly did not


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## herpzane (Apr 1, 2008)

I was a kid when i had my first pokie.............


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep pokies except me. 
So plz forward all your pokies to me


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Even by using tongs it does not mean you are completely immune from a bite...just reduces the chance a bite. If you dont wanna get tagged by something nasty...dont keep nasty stuff.

This happened to Roy in a blink of an eye, thankfully his reaction was to let go of the tongs.
AF lividum:


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## sage999 (Sep 21, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep pokies except me.
> So plz forward all your pokies to me


:lol2: Your not having mine. Anyway I got them from you in the first place!


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## xXxLynnxXx (Aug 9, 2009)

lol i remember seeing this pic Abi 



Muze said:


> Even by using tongs it does not mean you are completely immune from a bite...just reduces the chance a bite. If you dont wanna get tagged by something nasty...dont keep nasty stuff.
> 
> This happened to Roy in a blink of an eye, thankfully his reaction was to let go of the tongs.
> AF lividum:
> image


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep pokies except me.
> So plz forward all your pokies to me


 
And Dred!!!!


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

xXxLynnxXx said:


> lol i remember seeing this pic Abi


 
Yeah, i think that was the least cooperative, most unpredictable T we've owned, never had problems with lividums before...just this one! :lol2:

Fine when settled and had her burrow, but a complete nightmare when we needed to unpack or move her. You just could not second guess her at all. Give me a Pokie over her any day :flrt:


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## herpzane (Apr 1, 2008)

Lividum in a pair of tongs


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## brownj6709 (Jan 26, 2010)

aslong as you move slowly show no fear and act like substrate you arent gonna get bitten lol i did a blous cleanout/soakdown/feed on all my Ts the other day n ended up with spids everywhere i had muse's old subby on my back my af formosa on my forearm (not at the same time may i add) held my 7" violaceopes (but shes docile as an avic lol never seen her move fast or threat posture) ive held nearly every dangerous spid ive had (including an a/f nigriventor which even i shall admit scared the absolute sheet out of me, it wasnt intentional just an escapee while i packed her up for the council) n i recon (dont hold me to this) but it just comes down to how you act and react to the Ts movements and how you move the T off you lol i managed to get a very angry H.mac off me just through how i moved it about.
And thats the end of my statment (im probs gonna get bitten now ive said all that )


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## johncobb86 (Apr 17, 2009)

Muze said:


> Even by using tongs it does not mean you are completely immune from a bite...just reduces the chance a bite. If you dont wanna get tagged by something nasty...dont keep nasty stuff.
> 
> This happened to Roy in a blink of an eye, thankfully his reaction was to let go of the tongs.
> AF lividum:
> image


ha ha ha ha! what an ace picture! the exact same thing happened to me with my lividium, i was far too panicked to stop and take a picture tho, perfectly fitted pic to suit the comment. i do wonder if everyone would react as badly to a pokie bite tho, i would be interested to know but not to find out lol


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

johncobb86 said:


> ha ha ha ha! what an ace picture! the exact same thing happened to me with my lividium, i was far too panicked to stop and take a picture tho, perfectly fitted pic to suit the comment. i do wonder if everyone would react as badly to a pokie bite tho, i would be interested to know but not to find out lol


 
OH has a DWAL and keeps faster spiders so has faster reactions i guess. A lividum hurtling up the tongs for a bite is slow compared to having to deal with say a Phoneutria sp teleporting around :lol2: Hence having time for a pic :blush:

brownj6709 has one of my old subfusca AF's and she is as docile as you like all the pokies i have had are. Ive never had a problem moving or completing maintenance.

I find i have more problems with Selenocosmias and Africans being more defensive and unpredictable than any Pokie ive ever dealt with in well over 10 plus years.


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## Big.C (Mar 5, 2010)

I think the guy who's been bitten was just plain ignorant or over confident, like what's been said previous these Tarantula need the utmost respect.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

brownj6709 said:


> aslong as you move slowly show no fear and act like substrate you arent gonna get bitten lol i did a blous cleanout/soakdown/feed on all my Ts the other day n ended up with spids everywhere i had muse's old subby on my back my af formosa on my forearm (not at the same time may i add) held my 7" violaceopes (but shes docile as an avic lol never seen her move fast or threat posture) ive held nearly every dangerous spid ive had (including an a/f nigriventor which even i shall admit scared the absolute sheet out of me, it wasnt intentional just an escapee while i packed her up for the council) n i recon (dont hold me to this) but it just comes down to how you act and react to the Ts movements and how you move the T off you lol i managed to get a very angry H.mac off me just through how i moved it about.
> And thats the end of my statment (im probs gonna get bitten now ive said all that )


see, if all that happened to me I'd be questioning my responsibility. Its like saying to people "look I can run across the motorway and not get hit", you just set yourself up for "I told you so" but worse, you encourage others to do the same.
The whole argument seems to suggest because they havent bit you its safe to handle. For me I weigh up other arguments, if I get bitten, trot off to hospital, spend a few days with limited pain killers whilst experiencing muscles spasms, nausea, joint aches, breathing difficulties, etc I have to explain that to my boss, my family and possibly the people that have booked my band for their event. And I have to answer why did you let it out in the first place! 
I then have to consider the possibility of secondary infection.
For me its just not worth it, and the more we increase the possibility of not governing ourselves the more we increase the possibility of someone doing it for us. There's already strong arguments for Pokies and others to be put on DWA.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> see, if all that happened to me I'd be questioning my responsibility. Its like saying to people "look I can run across the motorway and not get hit", you just set yourself up for "I told you so" but worse, you encourage others to do the same.
> The whole argument seems to suggest because they havent bit you its safe to handle. For me I weigh up other arguments, if I get bitten, trot off to hospital, spend a few days with limited pain killers whilst experiencing muscles spasms, nausea, joint aches, breathing difficulties, etc I have to explain that to my boss, my family and possibly the people that have booked my band for their event. And I have to answer why did you let it out in the first place!
> I then have to consider the possibility of secondary infection.
> For me its just not worth it, and the more we increase the possibility of not governing ourselves the more we increase the possibility of someone doing it for us. *There's already strong arguments for Pokies and others to be put on DWA*.


this is my worry, if it starts with pokies it wont finish there i'm sure!!!


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Maybe they should be put on DWA... 

Hear me out...

It's all good if people like yourselves know what your doing and won't get bitten. (I'm not the same, I'd never trust myself) but if any old person can get hold of them, like the person who got bitten here, then it can become a danger for other people surely? Like what if it bit him and ran off? An an flat block that could become a problem... I know it's a bit sceptical but I'm just throwing it out there.

Don't shout at me. :blush:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> see, if all that happened to me I'd be questioning my responsibility. Its like saying to people "look I can run across the motorway and not get hit", you just set yourself up for "I told you so" but worse, you encourage others to do the same.
> The whole argument seems to suggest because they havent bit you its safe to handle. For me I weigh up other arguments, if I get bitten, trot off to hospital, spend a few days with limited pain killers whilst experiencing muscles spasms, nausea, joint aches, breathing difficulties, etc I have to explain that to my boss, my family and possibly the people that have booked my band for their event. And I have to answer why did you let it out in the first place!
> I then have to consider the possibility of secondary infection.
> For me its just not worth it, and the more we increase the possibility of not governing ourselves the more we increase the possibility of someone doing it for us. There's already strong arguments for Pokies and others to be put on DWA.


Who is asking for them to be put on the DWA Pete?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Muze said:


> Who is asking for them to be put on the DWA Pete?


 Is very true I always wonder at these kind of blanket statements as well. Who? When and based on what?


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> Is very true I always wonder at these kind of blanket statements as well. Who? When and based on what?


 
Usually comes from mass hysteria on forums and has no founding in fact...ive found :whistling2:

We've certainly heard nothing from DEFRA about this.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Last time people checked I seemed to remember there was no plan to put pokies on the DWAL, but that's not what Pete said.

He said there are _arguments _for it, not calls for or plans to. 

And while it's an extreme case this bite report could be considered an argument for it. Add to that the relative ease with which they're obtained (not even an age limit that I'm aware of, inverts and all that) and the low price many command as slings. However I don't know the specifications needed for an animal to be put on the DWAL, but really I'd guess all it needs is a highly publicised case where a kid with a heart condition is bitten by one or something... Cue moral panic, media circus and hasty legislation. We've all seen it done with other things and spiders never get a good rap with the general public at the best of times.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> Last time people checked I seemed to remember there was no plan to put pokies on the DWAL, but that's not what Pete said.
> 
> He said there are _arguments _for it, not calls for or plans to.
> 
> And while it's an extreme case this bite report could be considered an argument for it. Add to that the relative ease with which they're obtained (not even an age limit that I'm aware of, inverts and all that) and the low price many command as slings. However I don't know the specifications needed for an animal to be put on the DWAL, but really I'd guess all it needs is a highly publicised case where a kid with a heart condition is bitten by one or something... Cue moral panic, media circus and hasty legislation. We've all seen it done with other things and spiders never get a good rap with the general public at the best of times.


 
If that is true then why are animals such as Mangrove snakes not on the DWA? Far more dangerous than a Pokie and an equal if not more amount of bite reports.

All this talk of DWA restrictions is nothing more than scaremongering. They dont even have Sicarius on it so im betting your Pokies are safe.

I also asked who is argueing for them to be put on the DWA..did not say that Pete said they should be.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> Last time people checked I seemed to remember there was no plan to put pokies on the DWAL, but that's not what Pete said.
> 
> He said there are _arguments _for it, not calls for or plans to.
> 
> And while it's an extreme case this bite report could be considered an argument for it. Add to that the relative ease with which they're obtained (not even an age limit that I'm aware of, inverts and all that) and the low price many command as slings. However I don't know the specifications needed for an animal to be put on the DWAL, but really I'd guess all it needs is a highly publicised case where a kid with a heart condition is bitten by one or something... Cue moral panic, media circus and hasty legislation. *We've all seen it* *done with other things* and spiders never get a good rap with the general public at the best of times.


What other things? (not taking the peepee I honestly do not know).


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> What other things? (not taking the peepee I honestly do not know).



Well the snake that ate a neighbours cat springs to mind , think it was a Burm .


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Mutley.100 said:


> Well the snake that ate a neighbours cat springs to mind , think it was a Burm .


There may have been a panic but there was no legislation brought over this.

Again was never considered for DWA. Was all panic on the forums.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Mutley.100 said:


> Well the snake that ate a neighbours cat springs to mind , think it was a Burm .


Mutley I'll pm you a story very simular to this involving my Mums Yorkshire terrier and my brothers 15ft retic and noooooooooo it didnt get eaten lol


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Muze said:


> If that is true then why are animals such as Mangrove snakes not on the DWA? Far more dangerous than a Pokie and an equal if not more amount of bite reports.
> 
> All this talk of DWA restrictions is nothing more than scaremongering. They dont even have Sicarius on it so im betting your Pokies are safe.
> 
> I also asked who is argueing for them to be put on the DWA..did not say that Pete said they should be.


R.e. the mangrove snakes: the point I was making is that it's not always sensible. I'm not a snake person, so I don't know but it's not a matter of comparative danger so much as perceived danger. Look at pitbulls, plenty of folk here at least will assure you that there's nothing particularly wrong with pitbulls, that it's all down to training and bad owners. I'm not sure on this one personally, personality traits and preferred actions can certainly be bred into dogs, however they are banned. A GSD could do far more damage than a pitbull, and I know several people who've been bitten (I hesitate to say attacked) by them. However they are perfectly legal to own.

I don't doubt a fair bit is scaremongering, there's bugger all reason to put any T on the DWA as far as I can see. Also, sicarius may be infinitely more dangerous, but a combination of temperament, number of keepers, number of under 18 year old keepers and their inability to climb glass means that there's less chance of public awareness prompting legislation.

And I was differentiating between asking for them to be put on the DWA and there being arguments for it. 



Baldpoodle said:


> What other things? (not taking the peepee I honestly do not know).


Moral panic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia That's an interesting read on some historical moral panics.

Ones I can think of off the top of my head include the illegalisation of cannabis, inc. the more recent reclassification back up to B. Another you could possibly consider would be all the ridiculous US anti-terror laws in the wake of 11/9.

The continued refusal to allow gay men to give blood if they've _ever_ engaged in a certain act (buttsecks), inc. with protection, is based on a panic driven law during the AIDS crisis of the 80s. For comparison, straight unprotected intercourse with a prostitute means you can't give blood for a year.

I know better examples but I can't think of them right now.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> Moral panic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia That's an interesting read on some historical moral panics.
> 
> Ones I can think of off the top of my head include the illegalisation of cannabis, inc. the more recent reclassification back up to B. Another you could possibly consider would be all the ridiculous US anti-terror laws in the wake of 11/9.
> 
> ...


nice examples DWA listed animals there.:whistling2: FFS talk about chalk and cheese are there any examples relivent to the bloody topic? 

Your only saving grace there was the band dog breed comments which is rather silly as like you say this is mainly down to training and bad owners but then I am off the oppinion that everyone who owns a dog should have to train it by law anyway.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> nice examples DWA listed animals there.:whistling2: FFS talk about chalk and cheese are there any examples relivent to the bloody topic?
> 
> Your only saving grace there was the band dog breed comments which is rather silly as like you say this is mainly down to training and bad owners but then I am off the oppinion that everyone who owns a dog should have to train it by law anyway.



For once i actually think your talking sense


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

selina20 said:


> For once i actually think your talking sense


 thou giveth and taketh away in a single line!


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> thou giveth and taketh away in a single line!


I cant just give you a compliment as people will think iv gone soft :lol2::lol2:


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> nice examples DWA listed animals there.:whistling2: FFS talk about chalk and cheese are there any examples relivent to the bloody topic?
> 
> Your only saving grace there was the band dog breed comments which is rather silly as like you say this is mainly down to training and bad owners but then I am off the oppinion that everyone who owns a dog should have to train it by law anyway.


Agreed. But then again its not really relevant to the inverts or reptiles argument as these are animals that cannot be trained to the same degree as a dog.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> He said there are _arguments _for it, not calls for or plans to.


Thank you.

You have to ask yourself, what came first - the DWA or the public "hysteria"/concerns for the increase in exotic pets?
Policies are often governed by public opinion, sometimes without the full facts or more importantly the balance of other factors. We can't say we're not going to include Poecilotheria because a breed of snake more dangerous isn't considered. 

There are bodies out there (APA, IAR etc) that don't want any animals kept as pets, not even your cats and dogs, budgies or gold fish. They are already reducing our shows - ERAC was reduced to a non-live show this year, I don't believe BRAS even had an event. Surely, (and lets please not ask for documented and signed witness reports) it doesnt take much to figure where this might lead.

In a bid to give credence to my original reply I will quote David Warrell, (John Radcliffe Hospital, Oxford, UK)
"In the United Kingdom, keepers of dangerous venomous snakes are required by law to license them. This is not demanded of those who keep tarantulas in captivity. CITES prohibits trade in only three endangered species of Theraphosidae, _Aphonopelma albiceps, Aphonopelma pallidum_ and _Brachypelma_ spp., none of them from the Old World. Therefore, the only feasible preventive strategy is to encourage pet traders and hobbyist clubs and societies to explain the potential dangers of too-intimate contact with these attractive exotic animals, especially to potential child buyers."


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> Thank you.
> 
> You have to ask yourself, what came first - the DWA or the public "hysteria"/concerns for the increase in exotic pets?
> Policies are often governed by public opinion, sometimes without the full facts or more importantly the balance of other factors. We can't say we're not going to include Poecilotheria because a breed of snake more dangerous isn't considered.
> ...


Again regarding dangerous venomous snakes, there are those with venom alot more significant that Pokies that are available that are not on the DWA. Infact i believe within recent years some have been removed altogether (but will have to double check this).

As for child buyers is it not the law that no one under the age of 16 can buy a pet without an adult being present? Even so i was 11 when i started keeping Pokies and know of several keepers that have kept them from a similar age without incident.

You might say the argument of Pokies vs snakes is invalid...but what about Sicarius? 

The APA etc tried causing problems for other reptile shows, for instance there was one down south where they tried to stop the venue being used by saying people could not buy and trade reptiles. People faught it and won. If you dont like what they do then stand up to them...like others have done, but dont use them as an excuse.

There are still no plans to include Pokies on the DWA and as far as i can see to say otherwise is just scaremongering.

What next Africans? Other Asians? Macrothele sp? :lol2:


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Muze said:


> Again regarding dangerous venomous snakes, there are those with venom alot more significant that Pokies that are available that are not on the DWA. Infact i believe within recent years some have been removed altogether (but will have to double check this).
> 
> *As for child buyers is it not the law that no one under the age of 16 can buy a pet without an adult being present? Even so i was 11 when i started keeping Pokies and know of several keepers that have kept them from a similar age without incident.*
> 
> ...


That statement just there points out the reasons for governing bodies to look into putting measures to stop kids getting hands on certian species.... whether that be a pokie or true or snake or whatever.....

Very responsible of your parents hey!!!!!!

I dont think for one minute Pete is scare mongering, he is looking at the big picture and what is possibly down the road.....

As Popularity for keeping Tarantulas rise, the goverment will no doubt want to find an avenue in which to take profit from sales like it does with everything else.... I would say personally its only a matter of time...

and Muze you call Mark75 a troll ????? why because he was making you angry lololol


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Dr3d said:


> That statement just there points out the reasons for governing bodies to look into putting measures to stop kids getting hands on certian species.... whether that be a pokie or true or snake or whatever.....
> 
> Very responsible of your parents hey!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Have you actually looked to see how old i am? :lol2:

Was long before that law was brought in and i was being mentored by an entomologist who was keeping pokies. I was given my first by him with parental permission after being mentored for years previously.

I think you will also find that DanHalen has also kept pokies from a similar age.

I called Mark a troll because he was being personal and telling me what i could and couldnt keep. I wouldnt dream of doing that to anyone.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Muze said:


> Have you actually looked to see how old i am? :lol2:
> 
> Was long before that law was brought in and i was being mentored by an entomologist who was keeping pokies. I was given my first by him with parental permission after being mentored for years previously.
> 
> ...


Why would I want to see how old you are ????

so you were being mentored for *YEARS *before your 11th birthday....

Not interested in DanHalen he did'nt post on here saying he was keeping pokies at 11years old YOU did.... and to be honest dont think he would broadcast that about everywhere anyway, Why would he need to???

And as for Mark I think right now it would be better for someone like him to tell you what to keep and what not to, rather than some suite to make it LAW!!! which I believe this is mostly about!!!


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Dr3d said:


> Why would I want to see how old you are ????
> 
> so you were being mentored for *YEARS *before your 11th birthday....
> 
> ...


 
I am quite happy for people to know that i started keeping spiders and other inverts at 3. Albiet garden spiders. My first T at 6.

If you have a problem with this then im afraid it is your problem and not mine.

Roy (Young_Gun) is the one in this house with the DWAL and it was him he was telling not to keep DWA listed sp. It is DEFRA that tell us what we can and cannot keep not you or anyone else. You may have your opinions but that is only what they are and they will not change what we keep.

So rant on. You wont get a rise from me im afraid. :whistling2:


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Muze said:


> *I am quite happy for people to know that i started keeping spiders and other inverts at 3*. Albiet garden spiders. My first T at 6.
> 
> If you have a problem with this then im afraid it is your problem and not mine.
> 
> ...


Hang on a minute hahaha ok so you started keeping spiders at 3 years old ok and your first Tarantula at 6... WoW!!!

Why on earth would I have a problem with this???? your not my child I could'nt care if you kept king cobras under your bed......I'm not the governing bodies who want to make you pay to keep exotics under licensing!!!!

I do have an opinion ATM but if laws change becuase of ANY reasons we WONT have an opinion simple.... And if you or your partner keep spiecies on DWA lists, you are correct its DEFRA who make your rules and govern your opinions not us on here!!!!

Please dont acuse me of ranting I am smiling  <---- see I dont need to rant at anything this is a forum for discussion, and it's a great discussion for me as I am learning from it.... Muze please dont get upset, smile and have a great day, were all batting on the same side really.....it's the creatures we keep that were fighting for no


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Dr3d said:


> Why would I want to see how old you are ????
> 
> And as for Mark I think right now it would be better for someone like him to tell you what to keep and what not to, rather than some suite to make it LAW!!! which I believe this is mostly about!!!


So you have changed your mind about who tells us what we can and cannot keep? :Na_Na_Na_Na:



Dr3d;7251207
I do have an opinion ATM but if laws change becuase of ANY reasons we WONT have an opinion simple.... And if you or your partner keep spiecies on DWA lists said:


> Im really not upset : victory: people on the internet dont upset me. At the end of the day its just words on a screen.
> 
> If i can impart some knowledge then its all good, or if i can offer a valid flip side to a discussion i will. Simples.
> 
> But i havent set out anywhere here to be rude to anyone, unlike Mark


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Muze said:


> So you have changed your mind about who tells us what we can and cannot keep? :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I kinda lost something along the way, what have I changed my mind on.... I want to be free to make my choice of spider.... Dont want to be governed by the same crap you are with DWA simple no mind changes here.... what my discussion is, people posting bite reports of this nature does'nt help fight our corner, getting bitten is'nt something to be proud of... It simply means your a nob for letting it happen IT IS YOUR FAULT if you get bitten SIMPLE!!! and writing reports to this nature does our hobby of keeping T's noooo good!!!

I am pleased you want it Impart some knowledge and like the fact you want to throw a flip in to a discussion, I have no issue with this.....

I think calling him a troll was a little rude but you were defending your corner and so be it!!!

now the discussion seems to of gone flat so, i'll depart and complete my design work and return later to see if it has improved or inflated somewhat...


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## brownj6709 (Jan 26, 2010)

lol well this has turned into a bit of a sloppy argumentative thread lol everyone calm down or itll turn into another mass banning situation :gasp: end of the day you keep what you keep and if you get bitten by it its your own fault. i know the risks of handling my 'deadlyer' species and accept em, in a twisted way id like to know and experience the effects of a pokie bite to see how bad they really are but id never try to get bitten lol if it happens it happens plus i only handle when the situation calls for it e.g. last night whilst doing a bit of tank maintenence one of my juvie pokies went for a wonder across the bed. rather than going to find a cup or somthink to catch it in i mearly put my hand in its flight path lifted up my hand and let said spid walk back into enclosure. n pete mate i wasnt going down the 'encourage people to hold pokies and other dangerous spids if you know how n feel confident' because you never know how even if you are confident im just saying it seems to have paid off for me so far n i havent been bitten lol (no doubt i will in the end) e.g. i almost got an investigative nip of a metallica sling this morning because it was acting odd so i tapped its back leg with my little finger.


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## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

brownj6709 said:


> lol well this has turned into a bit of a sloppy argumentative thread lol everyone calm down or itll turn into another mass banning situation :gasp: end of the day you keep what you keep and if you get bitten by it its your own fault. i know the risks of handling my 'deadlyer' species and accept em, in a twisted way id like to know and experience the effects of a pokie bite to see how bad they really are but id never try to get bitten lol if it happens it happens plus i only handle when the situation calls for it e.g. last night whilst doing a bit of tank maintenence one of my juvie pokies went for a wonder across the bed. rather than going to find a cup or somthink to catch it in i mearly put my hand in its flight path lifted up my hand and let said spid walk back into enclosure. n pete mate i wasnt going down the 'encourage people to hold pokies and other dangerous spids if you know how n feel confident' because you never know how even if you are confident im just saying it seems to have paid off for me so far n i havent been bitten lol (no doubt i will in the end) e.g. i almost got an investigative nip of a metallica sling this morning because it was acting odd so i tapped its back leg with my little finger.


 
See, a very selfish response. You and many other keepers believe it's just you that's at risk.

I don't mean that nastily but the 'if it happens it happens' and the 'if you get bitten it's your fault' is all well and good and if you die I'll have no sympathy but said DWA species can and will escape given half the chance and then what? 

I just feel DWA species don't have a place in a 'hobby'.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

DEFRA don't actually 'tell' anyone what they can and can't keep.. but what they do is demand that a license is obtained from them, and said licence can only be issued when husbandry and safety concerns are observed to be adequate to the terms that they have set.
I differ from a fair lot of people regarding DWA.. in that I agree 100% with the licensing, and wish they could use it as a bit of a better carrot. Also, I think that as part of any licence, the person obtaining the licence has to sign a declaration, saying that they know the species, and understand exactly what can happen if they have an accident... I still have my wee red folder on the wall, with medical notes, species specifics etc

I suppose what I am really saying is that people need to start taking ownership of the decisions they make, whether they be good or bad, and stop looking for some Government guideline to hid under.

BTW.. my wee lad is 2 and has a spider.. he calls it Star.. he doesn't actually 'do' anything with it.. he is only 2! When he is older, I hope he doesn't tell people that he started collecting and owning when he was 2.. I mean, that would just be embarrassing..


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

LeviathanNI said:


> BTW.. my wee lad is 2 and has a spider.. he calls it Star.. he doesn't actually 'do' anything with it.. he is only 2! When he is older, I hope he doesn't tell people that he started collecting and owning when he was 2.. I mean, that would just be embarrassing..


I had my baby shower at the BTS last year so i got a few spiders for my son. Hes 15 months old and tbh i never expect him to say btw iv had spiders since i werent born lmao. I dont brag about how long iv been in the hobby because tbh im still learning a new thing everyday however i am willing to offer advice which people can take or leave. What i say isnt gospel and never has been. People need to get off their high horses i think


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Mark75 said:


> See, a very selfish response. You and many other keepers believe it's just you that's at risk.
> 
> I don't mean that nastily but the 'if it happens it happens' and the 'if you get bitten it's your fault' is all well and good and if you die I'll have no sympathy but said DWA species can and will escape given half the chance and then what?
> 
> I just feel DWA species don't have a place in a 'hobby'.


Of course the keeper who owns the animals ultimately is the only one at actual risk from the animals unless they live with others etc, but any DWAL animals should be in an inspected and LA cleared hot room with no method of escape even if the worst should happen.

Thats why when you are licensed you are checked, to assess the risk, which isn't a haphazard process and is to the same standards as herptelogical/zoo's have to adhere to.

So your animals wouldn't escape given half the chance, if that's the case, how many free roaming animals do you have  , all animals will try and escape from a cricket to a family dog, it's in the nature of the animals, granted DWA animals could pose a higher potential risk if they were to escape, but as mentioned before, it shouldn't be a problem for licensed keepers.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but then again, various people don't believe certain animals, like skunks which I notice you keep should be kept in captivity, but you don't have an issue with it, as I don't have an issue keeping DWAL animals even if narrowminded people believe they don't have any place in the hobby, without them in the hobby many unknown until recently qualities about these animals would likely have never been noticed or documented.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

After skipping though the crap (forgive me if I have repeated anything but truth is the thread got crap very fast so I didn't read it all) I can see Petes piont about the warning of pokies going on the DWA list through public hysteria etc. but the way I see it if these bite reports are too be believed then why shouldn't they go on the list? If they can make you as sick as they say then I think it only right they be added. Give me a good reason why they shouldn't.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> After skipping though the crap (forgive me if I have repeated anything but truth is the thread got crap very fast so I didn't read it all) I can see Petes piont about the warning of pokies going on the DWA list through public hysteria etc. but the way I see it if these bite reports are too be believed then why shouldn't they go on the list? If they can make you as sick as they say then I think it only right they be added. Give me a good reason why they shouldn't.


Couldnt agree more tbh.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> After skipping though the crap (forgive me if I have repeated anything but truth is the thread got crap very fast so I didn't read it all) I can see Petes piont about the warning of pokies going on the DWA list through public hysteria etc. but the way I see it if these bite reports are too be believed then why shouldn't they go on the list? If they can make you as sick as they say then I think it only right they be added. Give me a good reason why they shouldn't.


 
If you were part of this governing body Mr Poodle, given some of these juicy bite reports to go over, how would you personally classify this species, knowing that Animals going on the DWA list will without doubt creat more revenue to the powers that be by issueing keepers with licenses to cover them keeping such creatures.... you your self stated clearly that it is the individuals fault if they get tagged by a spider kept in captivity... I completly agree with this statement.....but feel if bite reports like this are read by a suit in an office who has very little or no knowledge of such species, they will ultimatly see that there is potential to earn more by incorperating such licensing.. hope that made sence to you..... regards


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> After skipping though the crap (forgive me if I have repeated anything but truth is the thread got crap very fast so I didn't read it all) I can see Petes piont about the warning of pokies going on the DWA list through public hysteria etc. but the way I see it if these bite reports are too be believed then why shouldn't they go on the list? If they can make you as sick as they say then I think it only right they be added. Give me a good reason why they shouldn't.


I suppose it'll depend on how you and the wording of the DWA act define dangerous.

Dangerous to health or potentially lethal?

Can anyone find a copy of the act? I was reading one yesterday, on a different computer, but now I can't find anything other than the schedule.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

@ Dr3d. 
This is a totally irrelevent question for me as I am not on such a board. As for the revenue these licenses create well I do not really think this amounts to much do you? Put it this way I don't think you could even run a zoo on it for a day.

Bites from any pet spider is always the owners fault and if such a licence some way to stop such idiots from being bitten by the potentally more venomous species of spider then good stuff I say. The only thing I will miss is the good laugh at the idiots who got bit, but then I'm sure these people will find somthing else to do for me to chuckle over.



> I suppose it'll depend on how you and the wording of the DWA act define dangerous.
> 
> Dangerous to health or potentially lethal?


those pesky giant armadillos.



> Can anyone find a copy of the act? I was reading one yesterday, on a different computer, but now I can't find anything other than the schedule.


try looking or asking here
Defra - Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs​


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Dr3d said:


> If you were part of this governing body Mr Poodle, given some of these juicy bite reports to go over, how would you personally classify this species, knowing that Animals going on the DWA list will without doubt creat more revenue to the powers that be by issueing keepers with licenses to cover them keeping such creatures.... you your self stated clearly that it is the individuals fault if they get tagged by a spider kept in captivity... I completly agree with this statement.....but feel if bite reports like this are read by a suit in an office who has very little or no knowledge of such species, they will ultimatly see that there is potential to earn more by incorperating such licensing.. hope that made sence to you..... regards


Lol, your very cynical. I think that if money was the motivation behind animals being added to the DWA list then there would be a lot more on it.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> those pesky giant armadillos.
> 
> try looking or asking here
> 
> Defra - Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs​


I'll have you know that giant armadillos are responsible for more deaths per year than super-malaria.

And I checked the defra site. But thanks anyway. 

Actually just found it on the direct.gov.uk site. Keeping wild animals : Directgov - Home and community


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Craig Mackay said:


> Lol, your very cynical. I think that if money was the motivation behind animals being added to the DWA list then there would be a lot more on it.


 
You think i'm cynical LoL, I am new to the topic of DWA and looking at the way governing bodies in this country run maybe I am throwing this in the same basket of eggs.....but still feel this is a case of watch this space..... it's only a matter of time before they bring in some new rule or regulation....

Not taking the topic away from DWA but as example...

It's dangerous to talk on your mobile fone in the car so hey now it's LAW...... I was about when seat belts were not compulsary in a car but hey it's dangerous not to wear one so now its LAW!!! big fines for non compliance...

Well its dangerous to keep pokies or H. mac and many other species, so how long will it be before its LAW!! this is my point....

as for costings Does the DWA charge an individual price for each species or does it cost the same across the board!!! 
Mokeys Alligators Spiders ETC!!

Are there big fines for non compliance!!! I would assume so..... If not what motivates people to stick within the rules.... Regards 



Baldpoodle said:


> @ Dr3d.
> This is a totally irrelevent question for me as I am not on such a board. As for the revenue these licenses create well I do not really think this amounts to much do you? Put it this way I don't think you could even run a zoo on it for a day.
> 
> Bites from any pet spider is always the owners fault and if such a licence some way to stop such idiots from being bitten by the potentally more venomous species of spider then good stuff I say. The only thing I will miss is the good laugh at the idiots who got bit, but then I'm sure these people will find somthing else to do for me to chuckle over.


I understand you are not part of this board but reading alot of your posts you apear to have some good points to make on such a subject, I am mearly interested in your points of view....regards


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Not taking the topic away from DWA but as example...
> etc etc etc etc


understand the point you are making but think you chose a bad 2 examples.



> as for costings Does the DWA charge an individual price for each species or does it cost the same across the board!!!
> Mokeys Alligators Spiders ETC!!


way I understand it, the cost is per animal and prices vary from council to council. think the price may even depend on animal also.



> Are there big fines for non compliance!!! I would assume so..... If not what motivates people to stick within the rules.... Regards


again fines I think will differ depending on animal but many people keep DWA animals especialy inverts without the licence as at the end of the day how is someone really going to know unless, you brag about it around the net/home or keep something like a lion or elephant in your back yard.

even if the council do find out about your non licence black widows they still need a warrent to come and check your home so you will have plenty of time to get rid in the mean time.
I just think those who dont bother with the licence are a bunch of f-wits who cock it up for the ones who go to the lenghts to get one, because going through all this work just to be able to keep a certin type of spider or scorpion shows me that the person has a real interest in what they keep and is probably not a complete tit, where as your non licence holder is more than likely just out for the brag factor and has a small penis with no balls.
Maybe if the f-wits were to bit the bullet and get a licence also the price of one may even go down?...... I don't know but you never know.



> I understand you are not part of this board but reading alot of your posts you apear to have some good points to make on such a subject, I am mearly interested in your points of view....regards


see above but I would put all inverts on DWA just to anoy the idiots out there who go out on a whim and buy one without finding out the basic needs for it before hand. 
I would inforce this with random gestapo like raids and anyone found guilty would be made lick clean the public toilets in waterloo train station. In fact sod it I would extend the law to all animal keepers and maybe then the number of dick head keepers across the board would go down a little......or maybe not but it would be fun.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I believe a DWA license covers you for upto 10 animals, you need subsequent licences for multiples of 10. I could be wrong, that's what I remember reading.


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> see above but I would put all inverts on DWA just to anoy the idiots out there who go out on a whim and buy one without finding out the basic needs for it before hand.
> I would inforce this with random gestapo like raids and anyone found guilty would be made lick clean the public toilets in waterloo train station. In fact sod it I would extend the law to all animal keepers and maybe then the number of dick head keepers across the board would go down a little......or maybe not but it would be fun.


Yeah I understand the point you are putting over about the quality of welfare towards pets kept... and to the ammount of knowledge gained prior to owning such species.... thanks 



Poxicator said:


> I believe a DWA license covers you for upto 10 animals, you need subsequent licences for multiples of 10. I could be wrong, that's what I remember reading.


do you have a price on such a license pete please


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## FreakOonique (Oct 1, 2008)

Dr3d said:


> Yeah I understand the point you are putting over about the quality of welfare towards pets kept... and to the ammount of knowledge gained prior to owning such species.... thanks
> 
> 
> 
> do you have a price on such a license pete please


Price of licence is not set. It's down to your local council


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

no Noel, it varies council to council. Your local pet shop might know although they don't require DWA licence, I believe they're covered by zoo licences


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## Craig Mackay (Feb 2, 2009)

Dr3d said:


> You think i'm cynical LoL, I am new to the topic of DWA and looking at the way governing bodies in this country run maybe I am throwing this in the same basket of eggs.....but still feel this is a case of watch this space..... it's only a matter of time before they bring in some new rule or regulation....
> 
> Not taking the topic away from DWA but as example...
> 
> It's dangerous to talk on your mobile fone in the car so hey now it's LAW...... I was about when seat belts were not compulsary in a car but hey it's dangerous not to wear one so now its LAW!!! big fines for non compliance...


I didn't mean to suggest that your cynicism was a bad thing...on the contrary, I think it often pays to be a little cynical. However I don't think in the case of DWA licenses it's appropriate. If the goverining body(ies) were really interested in making money then they would add a lot more venomous animals to the list.

I don't think your examples are particularly good. Not wearing seatbelts and/or using your phone while driving are very dangerous activities. The laws are there to protect lives because many people have been killed or seriously injured whilst doing these things. The worst part is that it's not always the offender that gets caught up in it. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone crashed into me while they were on their mobile!



Dr3d said:


> Well its dangerous to keep pokies or H. mac and many other species, so how long will it be before its LAW!! this is my point....


There is an awful lot of paranoia in the tarantula keeping hobby surrounding this kind of thing and it's mostly unfounded. People forget that tarantula keeping is hardly in it's infancy. I don't see why all of a sudden new laws are gonna be passed and new animals added to the list. Granted, now there are a lot more species in hobby and the internet has made it much more accessible so this has resulted in more people keeping them but people have been getting bitten by spiders for many a decade so I don't see why all of a sudden things are gonna change.



Dr3d said:


> as for costings Does the DWA charge an individual price for each species or does it cost the same across the board!!!
> Mokeys Alligators Spiders ETC!!


Each council governs it's own DWA license (although the listed animals are all the same) and as such, charges their own individual prices. I don't know whether it's a price per animal or not. I doubt it though.


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## sp1d8r (Feb 16, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> no Noel, it varies council to council. Your local pet shop might know although they don't require DWA licence, I believe they're covered by zoo licences


My m8 owns a pet shop in Belfast and has a DWA licence which covers his shop. He keeps a sidewinder rattle snake and a death stalker scorpion. He said it differs from council to council, can't remember how much it cost but I know he also has to pay public liability insurance. He gets occasional spot checks from some official lady, who he says has a wee yarn then says see you later. Also I have heard some councils are very reluctant to give a DWA licence.

Personally I wouldn't have the minerals to keep deadly Venomous animals, knowing my luck I would be the tit to get tagged LOL. I also believe there is a lot of possible medical significance to keeping venomous creatures, but believe some councils should force the issue of what the keepers motives are. The likes of the official in Belfast saying alrite then cheerio, dosent really cut the mustard when checking on people keeping potentially lethel creatures.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

I've seen this before some councils in the uk charge 50 quid while sole charge over 2grand a year for exacly the same thing! Shocking that they can do this mine is one of the dearer ones


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## aurora24 (Jul 8, 2010)

i have to say i love the fact of how bad the symptoms were and how much they were suffering yet it took them 2 weeks to seek medical help!! is this cos it was their fault or cos its not that true? something doesnt add up here!!:gasp:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

This might answer some questions ppl have about DWA:

DWA Info, Dangerous Wild Animals Act, Venomous Reptiles~ CaptiveBred.co.uk


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

In recent years they have also removed animals (snakes) from the DWAA i believe. 

So it seems they are not always actively looking to place animals on this list. The opposite maybe true?

I know there have been similar threads on forums asking why certain Buthid scorpions are on the DWA list. Placed there simply because they belong to a certain family of animals, not due to venom toxicity.


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## sage999 (Sep 21, 2008)

Muze said:


> In recent years they have also removed animals (snakes) from the DWAA i believe.
> 
> So it seems they are not always actively looking to place animals on this list. The opposite maybe true?.


I last looked at the list a couple of years ago and it really hasn't changed much. I believe some rear fanged snakes such as Mangroves were removed a few years ago.


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## Corsetts (Dec 8, 2008)

aurora24 said:


> i have to say i love the fact of how bad the symptoms were and how much they were suffering yet it took them 2 weeks to seek medical help!! is this cos it was their fault or cos its not that true? something doesnt add up here!!:gasp:


Wasn't in in the States though? if so, it may be because they didn't have medical insurance.

Just to add my worthless tuppence worth (as a novice keeper of a few Months.)

I don't personally see a need to keep DWA. I can't help feeling it is more for the shock value rather than anything else. After all, there are plenty enough stunning looking "normal" species you can keep that are relatively risk free.
But, each to their own. As long as they're properly secured and looked after responsibly, and I don't have to tend to them, then it's all fine by me


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## aurora24 (Jul 8, 2010)

Corsetts said:


> Wasn't in in the States though? if so, it may be because they didn't have medical insurance.
> 
> Just to add my worthless tuppence worth (as a novice keeper of a few Months.)


maybe but if they happened to know the dr the spoke to 2 weeks after surely they would have asked sooner and wouldnt have mattered bout insurance?


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## FreakOonique (Oct 1, 2008)

Just my 2 pence....

I do not think for a second that Poecilotheria should be put on DWA. To the best of my knowledge the bite reports out there are few and far between and I can't imagine some of them being entirely accurate, if true at all. Now I'm not saying any of the reports online aren't true, but this is the internet after all and we know how people like to dramatise things. 

Pokies tend to run and hide rather than bite. It amazes me how people jump on the band wagon saying that people shouldn't own them and that they should be DWA. Has anyone noticed that it's usually idiots who get bitten? There are a few people on here and other sites that I hold in high regard and think of them as knowledgeable and experienced keepers, yet they've never suffered a pokie bite. Says alot doesn't it?

When it comes down to hearing about bites, I hear more people talking/posting about G.Rosea bites than that any of tarantula. Does this mean they should be put on the DWA, or have we just become complacent with a supposedly 'docile' tarantula.

Treat a pokie with respect, be sensible with feeding and tank maintainence and there is no reason for you to get bitten. I've had mine for over a year now and not once have I ever come close to being bitten, and I wouldn't class myself as experienced either.


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## FreakOonique (Oct 1, 2008)

Muze said:


> In recent years they have also removed animals (snakes) from the DWAA i believe.
> 
> So it seems they are not always actively looking to place animals on this list. The opposite maybe true?
> 
> I know there have been similar threads on forums asking why certain Buthid scorpions are on the DWA list. Placed there simply because they belong to a certain family of animals, not due to venom toxicity.


I don't understand why some of the Buthid scorps are on the list either.


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## FreakOonique (Oct 1, 2008)

Corsetts said:


> Wasn't in in the States though? if so, it may be because they didn't have medical insurance.
> 
> Just to add my worthless tuppence worth (as a novice keeper of a few Months.)
> 
> ...


I don't agree with your comment about 'shock value'.

There are quite a few DWA keepers on here who chose NOT to make it public that they hold a licence and keep DWA's. 

Apart from the fact they've been classed DWA they are still an animal. Perhaps people find them fascinating and interesting, like some people find scorpions or skunks interesting.

My OH's friend keeps DWA and I can say for sure he doesn't keep them for the shock factor, but because he holds an interest in them.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

sp1d8r said:


> My m8 owns a pet shop in Belfast and has a DWA licence which covers his shop. He keeps a sidewinder rattle snake and a death stalker scorpion. He said it differs from council to council, can't remember how much it cost but I know he also has to pay public liability insurance. He gets occasional spot checks from some official lady, who he says has a wee yarn then says see you later. Also I have heard some councils are very reluctant to give a DWA licence.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't have the minerals to keep deadly Venomous animals, knowing my luck I would be the tit to get tagged LOL. I also believe there is a lot of possible medical significance to keeping venomous creatures, but believe some councils should force the issue of what the keepers motives are. The likes of the official in Belfast saying alrite then cheerio, dosent really cut the mustard when checking on people keeping potentially lethel creatures.


We in NI are not done by the local councils, but by the Northern Ireland Government.. I know the wee woman as well, and she comes out and has a yarn. Her main concern is that a) you can look after the animal you are applying for, and meet all its demands, and b) No one else can be in danger by you having said animal.. like my room has a double door.. it is a sealed room, locks on the doors etc
Ours is no where near as expensive (in general) as on GB.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

sp1d8r said:


> My m8 owns a pet shop in Belfast and has a DWA licence which covers his shop.


From DEFRA:
The Act does not apply to those dangerous wild animals kept in zoos, circuses, pet shops or designated establishments within the meaning of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, as these are covered by separate legislation. Zoos are regulated under the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 (as amended) and scientific establishments are regulated under the Animals (scientific procedures) Act 1986. The Pet Animals Act 1951 (as amended in 1983) protects the welfare of animals sold as pets.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

FreakOonique said:


> I don't agree with your comment about 'shock value'.
> 
> There are quite a few DWA keepers on here who chose NOT to make it public that they hold a licence and keep DWA's.
> 
> ...


I will agree with this. For example most people assume DWA scorpion keepers will have LQ's (Leiurus quinquestriatus or Death stalker) in their collection. We dont as they are actually very boring scorps to keep (IMO). We choose to keep things such as B jacksoni and various Tityus for their bright colours etc.


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Muze said:


> I will agree with this. For example most people assume DWA scorpion keepers will have LQ's (Leiurus quinquestriatus or Death stalker) in their collection. We dont as they are actually very boring scorps to keep (IMO). We choose to keep things such as B jacksoni and various Tityus for their bright colours etc.


 
Agreed LQ's are very boring and have no attractive features in my opinion whatsoever, the South American Tityus spp. are wicked but are supposedly very fast and very potent and would scare the crap out of me.

I really like the North American barks .. primarily Centruoides vittatus and the ones from Arizona i think it's C. sculpturus v. nice and if I was going to give DWA (Buthids) a shot I would love a colony of the barks.

-P


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Paul c 1 said:


> Agreed LQ's are very boring and have no attractive features in my opinion whatsoever, the South American Tityus spp. are wicked but are supposedly very fast and very potent and would scare the crap out of me.
> 
> I really like the North American barks .. primarily Centruoides vittatus and the ones from Arizona i think it's C. sculpturus v. nice and if I was going to give DWA (Buthids) a shot I would love a colony of the barks.
> 
> -P


Centruoides vittatus are ace! And communal too...again it seems alot of DWA listed ones are the communal ones.

Ive just found this about the Central American Bark Scorp: Scorpion venom may aid heart bypass surgery - Health News - NHS Choices


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Muze said:


> Centruoides vittatus are ace! And communal too...again it seems alot of DWA listed ones are the communal ones.
> 
> Ive just found this about the Central American Bark Scorp: Scorpion venom may aid heart bypass surgery - Health News - NHS Choices


I do like the communal ones too, the other thing with centroides vittatus is that the venom is actually considered to be very mild and sting reports on that particular sp. are with no ill or long term effects (similar to B jax), one hobbyist compairs the sting to the equalvilant of a U.S Vaejovis spp, which are perfectly legal to own here in the UK.... the DWA act is messed up in certain areas particulary with there stance on Buthids,.. there's a lot that perhaps shouldn't neccessarily be on there.

Also interesting read too, just shows how important venom is considered scientifically regarding helping with human illness, i've seen similar articles with Gila Monster venom and the Ausie Tarantulas (Phlogius spp).
-P


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## Toeboe (Dec 28, 2006)

Fascinating thread guys, and its not even got silly posts, highly unusual.:lol2:
One thing that puzzles me though, we are 10 pages into a thread (not an insignificant amount for here) and after all the mentions of DWAL no-one has come up with difinitive costs. I understand that councils from different regions set different tariffs, but is there nobody reading this who has actually paid for a license? All we have had so far is third hand guess-timates. 
Not that i'm thinking of applying for one, i'm just being nosey,lol.
P.S. I hope they put pokies on DWA before I have rehouse my commune,,lol (JOKE OF COURSE) :lol2:


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## FreakOonique (Oct 1, 2008)

Toeboe said:


> Fascinating thread guys, and its not even got silly posts, highly unusual.:lol2:
> One thing that puzzles me though, we are 10 pages into a thread (not an insignificant amount for here) and after all the mentions of DWAL no-one has come up with difinitive costs. I understand that councils from different regions set different tariffs, but is there nobody reading this who has actually paid for a license? All we have had so far is third hand guess-timates.
> Not that i'm thinking of applying for one, i'm just being nosey,lol.
> P.S. I hope they put pokies on DWA before I have rehouse my commune,,lol (JOKE OF COURSE) :lol2:


Perhaps because only one (maybe 2) people in this thread actually have a DWAL?

It varies greatly from area to area.


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## Muze (Jun 20, 2007)

Toeboe said:


> Fascinating thread guys, and its not even got silly posts, highly unusual.:lol2:
> One thing that puzzles me though, we are 10 pages into a thread (not an insignificant amount for here) and after all the mentions of DWAL no-one has come up with difinitive costs. I understand that councils from different regions set different tariffs, but is there nobody reading this who has actually paid for a license? All we have had so far is third hand guess-timates.
> Not that i'm thinking of applying for one, i'm just being nosey,lol.
> P.S. I hope they put pokies on DWA before I have rehouse my commune,,lol (JOKE OF COURSE) :lol2:


If you speak to Roy he'll tell you the exact costs for this area and what he paid when he was in Liverpool (your area i think).

At last renewal here just for the licence itself it was £135 off the top of my head. Then there was vets fees on top.


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## brownj6709 (Jan 26, 2010)

Mark75 said:


> See, a very selfish response. You and many other keepers believe it's just you that's at risk.
> 
> I don't mean that nastily but the 'if it happens it happens' and the 'if you get bitten it's your fault' is all well and good and if you die I'll have no sympathy but said DWA species can and will escape given half the chance and then what?
> 
> I just feel DWA species don't have a place in a 'hobby'.


what do you think one DWA would do in the whole of brittan? run rampant like godzilla? hell theres a good few loose allready (better count up the death tolls ayy?)

and how in anyway is it being selfish? i keep my spids under lock and key in an escape proof room the only things that can get out of the cupboard ive set up are roach nymphs and if they could climb and were strong enough at that stage some N2's lol the only escapee ive ever had was when i accidentally left a HoS tank door a'jar and got up in the morning to find my formosa on the ceiling of the T room (which subsiquently saw me coming towards it with a tube and legged it back into its enclosure.)

anyway i know of a certain factory crawling with brazilian and costa'rican spids some no doubt phonutria and none of the workers have been bitten as far as i know. and before anyone asks yes it is a banana/fruit packing plant in the uk and when they dip the bananas in thiabenzanol or however you spell it, (apparently) they get loadsa spiders running out some die in the tank others escape and they just get told not to touch em.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

It is £80 here in Northern Ireland, and then the vets fees on top of that... that said, it might have went up a bit this year (I don't know yet).


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

I looked on my council's website it's over £600 here initially and then £60 a year thereafter to renew. i don't think that includes the vet fee either.
Tha's enough to put most people off I reckon.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

See, this is where I get confused:



brownj6709 said:


> ...the only escapee ive ever had was when i accidentally left a HoS tank door a'jar and got up in the morning to find my formosa on the ceiling of the T room


earlier:


brownj6709 said:


> ...i did a blous cleanout/soakdown/feed on all my Ts the other day n ended up with spids everywhere i had muse's old subby on my back my af formosa on my forearm (not at the same time may i add) held my 7" violaceopes (but shes docile as an avic lol never seen her move fast or threat posture) ive held nearly every dangerous spid ive had (including an a/f nigriventor which even i shall admit scared the absolute sheet out of me, it wasnt intentional just an escapee while i packed her up for the council) n i recon (dont hold me to this) but it just comes down to how you act and react to the Ts movements and how you move the T off you lol i managed to get a very angry H.mac off me just through how i moved it about.


There are other examples within this forum of you saying similar. Now I'm not sure I'd want to live next to that if these were under the DWAA, because if you didnt have a licence then you obviously wouldnt have insurance. Lets speak hypothetically, if I had a dog worth £1,000 - £5,000
and it was bitten by one of your pokies I'd expect you to reimburse me, and without insurance I'd be left with the the prospect of taking you to court, a real pain in the ass. I think that's where the responsibility lies for me but we could take this scenario much further.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

And I can tell you this for nothing (and this might, as usual, be because we are in NI), but insurance is a) a nightmare to find, and b) bloody expensive!
For my renewal, I will be looking for new insurance, and I am dreading it! (anyone that has recommendations, a PM would be welcomed!)


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## brownj6709 (Jan 26, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> if I had a dog worth £1,000 - £5,000
> and it was bitten by one of your pokies
> QUOTE]
> asif one of my pokies would ever bite a dog! dont you think i train them well enough haha
> ...


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Mine is about 6", hardly ever see her. Tried to breed 2 females earlier in the year, lost one :/


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## herpzane (Apr 1, 2008)

i completely agree people would be concerned if there was a venemous animal on the loose in your area, however there are millions of people that live alongside dangerous animals in the world and confrontations are soooo rare let alone a bite/sting from something................................


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## johnnat29 (Mar 16, 2021)

wow i was bitten by a poecilotheria hanumavilasumica from my collection it was bad and it hurt for a few days week max ...i have every poecilotheria on the planet and i would say that the ivory or Metallica or Pederson’s would be the worst if they caught you but the worst i have ever been tagged was by a feather legged baboon ( Stromatopelma calceatum) nearly killed me and it wasn’t even my fault spider shop Gloucester uk had not closed lid properly on tank and the female juvie had me on my wrist 2 months later I’m still having physio on my neck from muscle ripping apart was hospitalised for 6 days and given morphine on tap for the pain i also have a 8 inch scar on the wrist were they had to cut the skin were my wrist tripled in size they had to cut me or risk blood clot that was 5 years ago i now have 180 tarantulas loads of old worlds and new worlds my favourite is feather legged baboon the one that bit me know lives with me hahahahaha


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