# First Dart frog builds



## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Started building my dart tanks a few weeks ago that I collected from Richie.

Went with the foam-rockoflex and elastopur method as bought from Dartfrog as a set.

Issues so far... Elastopur fully mixed with pigment and applied to Rockoflex - still wet after two days? I'm assumed the hardening pigment maybe wasn't added? Bit of a bugger as I've kinda covered the whole tank now hahah

Pics to follow


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Anybody else have experience with Elastopur and drying? - from Dartfrog or otherwise :whistling2: Thanks :notworthy:


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Foamed








Trimmed








Rockoflex + (Elastopur with eco earth/moss/ground treefern)









Temporary Azzie Tank containing J's Azzies (growing by the week  ) - Better pics of the frogs will be up when they have moved into their proper tank

















dodgy looking tape is to hold on the temporary LED strip on the side haha


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

looks good mate, was just about to ask about the azzies  look forward to seeing some pics


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Cornish-J said:


> looks good mate, was just about to ask about the azzies  look forward to seeing some pics


Cheers bud - yeah pics will be up soon enough :lol2: Been a bit behind with it so apologies, will be seeing more of me now I hope.

Trying to get to the bottom of the Elastopur not curing before I go any further though, I assume Marc at Dartfrog sells it ready mixed as it's a 2-part curing process. He doesn't sell the curer it seems so it must be in there but it's almost like it's not...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> Cheers bud - yeah pics will be up soon enough :lol2: Been a bit behind with it so apologies, will be seeing more of me now I hope.
> 
> Trying to get to the bottom of the Elastopur not curing before I go any further though, I assume Marc at Dartfrog sells it ready mixed as it's a 2-part curing process. He doesn't sell the curer it seems so it must be in there but it's almost like it's not...


Buddy ,did you get a tub on top of the elastopur...part of the lid,you sort of unclip it. This tub contains the hardner,you stick a screwdriver through this tub and let the hardner drain into the elastopur then mix thoroughly then apply. Mate I've only used this product once...say 3years back,so they might have changed it,while I wait for you to reply I'll dig abit

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Buddy ,did you get a tub on top of the elastopur...part of the lid,you sort of unclip it. This tub contains the hardner,you stick a screwdriver through this tub and let the hardner drain into the elastopur then mix thoroughly then apply. Mate I've only used this product once...say 3years back,so they might have changed it,while I wait for you to reply I'll dig abit
> 
> Stu


From the look of it it is exactly the same product. Two parts, in separated measured quantities you have to mix.I hope you haven't done what I think you have,:gasp:.

I really hope i'm wrong again here

Stu


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> From the look of it it is exactly the same product. Two parts, in separated measured quantities you have to mix.I hope you haven't done what I think you have,:gasp:.
> 
> I really hope i'm wrong again here
> 
> Stu


:bash::bash: Goddam... Cheers for the reply mate. I really think I have you know, what a pleb! The instructions were all in Dutch initially, so I went on their site and it mentioned the 'method' to adding the hardener, but upon opening I saw a separation (obviously the oils NOT the hardener) so assumed it had been added at Marcs side pre-purchase. 

I saw the whole using a screwdriver thing but assumed that was for when you actually had the hardner, not that it was in the lid :blush:

Oh dear - alot of scraping off is going to have to take place then, plus the 1:1 ratio will all be out now...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> :bash::bash: Goddam... Cheers for the reply mate. I really think I have you know, what a pleb! The instructions were all in Dutch initially, so I went on their site and it mentioned the 'method' to adding the hardener, but upon opening I saw a separation (obviously the oils NOT the hardener) so assumed it had been added at Marcs side pre-purchase.
> 
> I saw the whole using a screwdriver thing but assumed that was for when you actually had the hardner, not that it was in the lid :blush:
> 
> Oh dear - alot of scraping off is going to have to take place then, plus the 1:1 ratio will all be out now...


Ahh man I'm gutted for you,what a PITA.Mate I think you might have to start over and get a new tub of elastopur. It will need mixing in an exact ratio. this is part of the reason i went over to epoxy,so i could mix exact quantities,plus elastopur is quite thick to work with. The solids separate out which is what fooled you,leaving and oily clearish top layer. Ahh mate what a shame,I wish you'ld have posted. The rana site has a tutorial for future ref.

Hey ho head up bro,sometimes we all just learn the hard way,I've been there too mate,just gutted

best

Stu


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

What a pain in the ar*e mate, thanks for your input though - if only I had posted sooner haha. Like you said, yeah I have certainly learnt the hard way!

Do you favour the low or high viscosity Epoxy? Any change I could cover What Ive done In Epoxy? - Or would it be stupid and much better to TRY and strip that brown mess off? :blush:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

know exactly where you are at fella, did mine, got plants in and everything settling down, days before i was scheduled to get my frogs, BOOM, noticed a crack in my background (although i used plastidip) and i've spent the last month putting together another viv.

Good Luck with sorting out the mess


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> What a pain in the ar*e mate, thanks for your input though - if only I had posted sooner haha. Like you said, yeah I have certainly learnt the hard way!
> 
> Do you favour the low or high viscosity Epoxy? Any change I could cover What Ive done In Epoxy? - Or would it be stupid and much better to TRY and strip that brown mess off? :blush:


Mate i've been pondering a get out of jail card,but I don't think there is one..I don't think the epoxy would work on any level. the problem is what you have applied won't cure out without the hardener. So you are going to have to remove every last trace of this stuff.I've thought about trying to apply the hardener over the top,but It's too damn risky,mate I think you're stuck between a rock and a hardplace. Contact Ruud Shoulten at dutch rana,if there is a way around this then he's your man.there might just be some form of solvent you can obtain to aid in clearing up ,I don't know that there is ,but worth trying to find out 

Mate these two pack products harden by a chemical process when mixed together,it is the same with the epoxy. You should have an hour or so working time and then the stuff will start to set. It's why i've always stressed being super prepared before adding the second component,and then work quick and efficiently. Naturally heat will speed up the curing process and as I found out last winter cold will mess with this too slowing setting!! It is essential both resin and hardener are mixed in accurate quantities
i'm told elastopur can be used as a one step product,I've always used rockoflex under all our builds,You MUST use rockoflex or a similar product? underneath it when using epoxy!!!! It will not cover foam on it's own!!! I hope I'm not patronising you with this last couple of paragraphs mate,I'm just trying to prevent further difficulties,nowt else.

I use the red top epoxy,I think it's the low viscosity option. The other thickness has a black top. hardener is in white top,mix in ratio 10parts resin...6parts hardener,by volume,so measure quantities in mm on the two cans and then pour out each accurately. do resin first and wait and repour as it is thick you need to assess how much is still left in the can,which will run back after a small period on time...does that last bit make sense?

good luck mate

Stu


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Just read the whole thing and too feel the pain. Nothing worse than having to strip back days of hard work!! 

This link should help and best of luck. Your in safe hands when stu's on board!!

Elastopur, do it yourself


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

It's a pain in the arse (okay, that's an understatement) but the uncured monomers of these epoxy-type products can be downright deadly. Don't take any risks with them; iIt's a start it again job, unfortunately.

If it makes you feel any better, I made up 5L of epoxy to take a cast of a dolphin's tail once (don't ask why... And yes, the dolphin was dead...) only to find out that the company had supplied two lots of one ingredient - one of them mislabeled in the hardener container. Now that was a right old mess to clean up!!!

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Safe hands maybe J(thankyou),but I'll defer to Nick, as I know his scientific knowledge to be greater than mine.Naturally I'm still gutted,wanted a ray of hope even though I also thought there probably wasn't one .

Oh Nick one day I'm going to get the full story on said dolphin,northern folks and their toys eh :Na_Na_Na_Na: 

best

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Safe hands maybe J(thankyou),but I'll defer to Nick, as I know his scientific knowledge to be greater than mine.Naturally I'm still gutted,wanted a ray of hope even though I also thought there probably wasn't one .
> 
> Oh Nick one day I'm going to get the full story on said dolphin,northern folks and their toys eh :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> ...


That could maybe be my new sig: 'Northern boys like dolphin tails...' :lol2:


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Just read the whole thing and too feel the pain. Nothing worse than having to strip back days of hard work!!
> 
> This link should help and best of luck. Your in safe hands when stu's on board!!
> 
> Elastopur, do it yourself


Cheers mate. I have been looking at your latest thread in awe - very nice and glad to see somebody trying something new :2thumb:

That link has haunted me from the second Stu mentioned if I had mixed the hardener in haha!


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

DrNick said:


> It's a pain in the arse (okay, that's an understatement) but the uncured monomers of these epoxy-type products can be downright deadly. Don't take any risks with them; iIt's a start it again job, unfortunately.
> 
> If it makes you feel any better, I made up 5L of epoxy to take a cast of a dolphin's tail once (don't ask why... And yes, the dolphin was dead...) only to find out that the company had supplied two lots of one ingredient - one of them mislabeled in the hardener container. Now that was a right old mess to clean up!!!
> 
> Nick


Haha thanks for the advice Nick. The Dolphin thing does sound very funny in hindsight, but I can imagine how miffed you were at the time :lol2:


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Appreciate your concern Stu - Will get in contact with him asap.

Yes I had Rockoflex as a base as it states on the side of the tin (the bit I actually DID understand :bash that applying it straight to glass is a no-no, and when it gets wet it loses the bond apparently (seems odd though as it's waterproof when dry :whistling2

Yeah I understood it was a two part I just stupidly thought it was pre mixed, but obviously it would go hard fast if that was the case duh! Will probably go with the Epoxy route!

I luckily only have one side covered on my second tank, so I'm going to focus on this one first, get the Azzies in and then tackle the horrible muddy mess!

The pouring makes sense, as the liquid is thick it would take a minute to settle to tell if you have used even quantities you mean?



soundstounite said:


> Mate i've been pondering a get out of jail card,but I don't think there is one..I don't think the epoxy would work on any level. the problem is what you have applied won't cure out without the hardener. So you are going to have to remove every last trace of this stuff.I've thought about trying to apply the hardener over the top,but It's too damn risky,mate I think you're stuck between a rock and a hardplace. Contact Ruud Shoulten at dutch rana,if there is a way around this then he's your man.there might just be some form of solvent you can obtain to aid in clearing up ,I don't know that there is ,but worth trying to find out
> 
> Mate these two pack products harden by a chemical process when mixed together,it is the same with the epoxy. You should have an hour or so working time and then the stuff will start to set. It's why i've always stressed being super prepared before adding the second component,and then work quick and efficiently. Naturally heat will speed up the curing process and as I found out last winter cold will mess with this too slowing setting!! It is essential both resin and hardener are mixed in accurate quantities
> i'm told elastopur can be used as a one step product,I've always used rockoflex under all our builds,You MUST use rockoflex or a similar product? underneath it when using epoxy!!!! It will not cover foam on it's own!!! I hope I'm not patronising you with this last couple of paragraphs mate,I'm just trying to prevent further difficulties,nowt else.
> ...


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

I feel your pain! DEEP breaths...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Yeah that's it kiddo,you need to let the thicker component run back down to check you have poured out the right amount. Basically,mark the tub at the bottom of the meniscus then measure and mark again,check measurement pour......wait and so on. Then once your sure on the resin stuff some pigment in ,but don't mix(not much it goes along way). Then measure and add the hardener and you'll now have the pigment to help act as a visual guide to mixing. 

Can't help being concerned mate,now i'm on a mission to get you through the next attempt without hitches:Na_Na_Na_Na: BUT!! for godsake watch out for those guys carrying a dolphin and two packs of resin. Ron we really should try and behave here,I'm struggling tis all,even though I truely am gutted,Nick plays that dolphin card and ............:mf_dribble:
seeya

Stu


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Cheers Stu, will keep you updated

Rob


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> Cheers Stu, will keep you updated
> 
> Rob


Always welcome Rob,one day I must get back down there,I'll be wanting to see some frogs in a stonking viv,and knowing you won,

good luck kiddo,
Stu


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Always welcome Rob,one day I must get back down there,I'll be wanting to see some frogs in a stonking viv,and knowing you won,
> 
> good luck kiddo,
> Stu


Haha absolutely mate. Epoxy ordered so I shall be sorting the viv tomorrow eve all being well and get some more update pics going : victory:

Yeah deffo! Haha I'll try not to disappoint, I'm sure the collection will only increase!

Have you tried measuring the epoxy out by weight? Just been reading about scales being a pretty solid way of getting the right mixes so wondered what your take was on it

Cheers :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

brysaa2 said:


> Have you tried measuring the epoxy out by weight? Just been reading about scales being a pretty solid way of getting the right mixes so wondered what your take was on it


If you want to get epoxy ratios absolutely right, it MUST be done by weight. In the applications we're talking about it probably wouldn't make too much difference doing it by volume (in that you probably wouldn't be left with enough unpolymerised epoxy or hardener for it to be problematic), but I am pretty paranoid with all epoxy products and if I were to use a non-premeasured system in a viv, I would certainly be measuring by weight.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

By weight it is then buddy! Pics to follow this evening, hopefully it won't end with me setting anything on fire from incorrect mixes haha!

Let the 'undo-my-:censor:' process begin!












DrNick said:


> If you want to get epoxy ratios absolutely right, it MUST be done by weight. In the applications we're talking about it probably wouldn't make too much difference doing it by volume (in that you probably wouldn't be left with enough unpolymerised epoxy or hardener for it to be problematic), but I am pretty paranoid with all epoxy products and if I were to use a non-premeasured system in a viv, I would certainly be measuring by weight.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

A bit delayed folks... apologies! Epoxy was mixed 55g resin to 11g hardener (5:1) and has been applied to the stripped and re-coated with Rockoflex tank (pics will follow,nothing much special in between stages, just me stripping the heck out of it to get it back to how it was!)

I have pressed the earth/fern/moss mix in and will check it out tomorrow and get some pics asap

rob : victory:


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> A bit delayed folks... apologies! Epoxy was mixed 55g resin to 11g hardener (5:1) and has been applied to the stripped and re-coated with Rockoflex tank (pics will follow,nothing much special in between stages, just me stripping the heck out of it to get it back to how it was!)
> 
> I have pressed the earth/fern/moss mix in and will check it out tomorrow and get some pics asap
> 
> rob : victory:


Fingers crossed for you mate!

Adam


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> BUT!! for godsake watch out for those guys carrying a dolphin and two packs of resin...


Might amuse you to hear Stu that prior to the resin incident we had also been spotted trying to smuggle the thing into the MRI unit at the Royal Victoria Infirmary after hours (in a body bag unloaded from the back of a Skoda Octavia...) and had to do some pretty rapid fire explaining to stop security being called!!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> Might amuse you to hear Stu that prior to the resin incident we had also been spotted trying to smuggle the thing into the MRI unit at the Royal Victoria Infirmary after hours (in a body bag unloaded from the back of a Skoda Octavia...) and had to do some pretty rapid fire explaining to stop security being called!!


Yup it did:2thumb:Rob/ Nick thanks for the epoxy by weight,it is not something I had ever thought of before,great shout ,always something to learn

Rob good luck kiddo.

Nick any thoughts on an alternative to rockoflex that could be used under epoxy? I know this method isn't you're chosen,but you're science knowledge makes me think it is worth asking
Thankyou

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Yup it did:2thumb:Rob/ Nick thanks for the epoxy by weight,it is not something I had ever thought of before,great shout ,always something to learn
> 
> Rob good luck kiddo.
> 
> ...


I think you give me too much credit 

To be honest I would never recommend anything I haven't used myself anyway. I'm very cautious of epoxy on the whole (joking asside!!) and have never needed to use it in a viv, so haven't. I've tested a few brands against aquatic organisms in the lab and I have to say the ENT system does seem to be inert when cured (and mixed by weight). 

As for a rockoflex replacement, sorry no ideas. To be honest I don't even really know what it is.. Some kind of acrylic-based resin? I'm not that creative - you haven't seen my vivs but works of art they are not.........  I've never gone wrong with Gorilla glue and coco husk from IKEA!!

Nick

P.S. One thing has just sprung to mind... Ages ago I got a sample of this Bioresin stuff from Cambridge biopolymers to do some molding at work, but never used it. I presume, it went in a drawer somewhere.... Certainly not a recommendation but just to point out that it exists!! http://www.cambridge-biopolymers.com/Mould.htm


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> I think you give me too much credit
> 
> To be honest I would never recommend anything I haven't used myself anyway. I'm very cautious of epoxy on the whole (joking asside!!) and have never needed to use it in a viv, so haven't. I've tested a few brands against aquatic organisms in the lab and I have to say the ENT system does seem to be inert when cured (and mixed by weight).
> 
> ...


Hell now this thread is going off topic:whistling2:Oh I'm trying for a pic for you,which will bring it back in the ballpark at least.

Nick I believe rockoflex is some form of grout or similar substance. Hunches of mine relate this method of background to methods used in the surfboard industry,that might be a long shot of a hunch,but I believe this was developed by Peter Nowark and somewhere I'm sure I read he made surfboards before starting ENT. Anyway it is a grounding product providing a more solid base for the epoxy to bind to,but beyond that I haven't a clue as to it's constiuents.

Nick credit where credit's due,the biopolymers are very interesting,it's this sort of thing that i find engaging. the bioresin might be a non starter though,i've only flicked through but it's a thermo resin ie I think it needs heat to cure? Am I correct in my assumption?

Mate I know you have reservations about epoxy resin,on a very serious level, I've noted this in your posts many times.I'm just born creative i guess and use these products to try and create what I want for a particular viv design.Not having a science background other than school,I went for these products as I believed they were tested and proven for the frogs,but I don't really understand what they are made of. I tend to just use them now all be it with alot of care But there is no doubt in my mind that I could go much further if I felt safe with a wider tool kit,these methods definitely limit me. 

thanks again

Stu


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm back guys! Well chuffed and thanks for all your help, esp you Stu. Really happy with how it came out! The little blue chaps seem to love their new too! Apologies for the length of time Jamie  :lol2: 

They have been in for about 5 minutes and already done three laps of the place! Very happy with me being there practically jumped into the new tank!

All stripped Stu and I mixed up some Epoxy and went for it. Apologies for the lack of build progress but it all happened in the last two days and really needed to get it done as I was taking over the lounge :lol2:

Cheers guys
All Three out to see what's going on!


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

awesome ! glad it worked out for you, loving the idea of getting some of these blue guys next


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

Hi mate, glad to see they're doing well .. i'm sure they will be very happy in their new home 

Would love to see some detailed pics of the frogs, to see how their markings have developed etc if you get chance.

How old are they now, can't remember when you had them? this time last year? must be approaching adults now!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Fab Rob!! Sometimes we get thrown curve balls,how we catch 'em is what counts. Tis a fine viv mate I really like it,kinda want more leaves though,but hell that's me:blush: Good luck with them mate,l want more pics:bash::lol2:

take care buddy

Stu


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## aberreef (Aug 10, 2010)

Looking good. When's the next viv coming:whistling2:


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Thanks guys  Definitely Stu, learnt from it all the more in my opinion. Mistakes may cost you, but you certainly gain XP. Haha good call Stu, I totally agree and will be going to fetch lotsa oak leaves at the weekend! They love the brazil nut pods though and have so many hiding places, really active all the time and eating like pigs! Will get some close up pics when I can so I can hopefully sex them with you guys help! :blush:

@CornishJ Yeah buddy a whole year eh! No fighting as yet with the trio, so fingers crossed. Thought I'd add this legend as he was king of the tank for about an hour! haha


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

aberreef said:


> Looking good. When's the next viv coming:whistling2:


Haha soon actually mate! soon...


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## jtg (Jun 16, 2010)

What are the long things on the floor?

josh


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

jtg said:


> What are the long things on the floor?
> 
> josh


Coco Leaves mate from Pollywog


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Yeah it's hoard the leaves time isn't it AGAIN:bash::bash::lol2:.

Rob a thought,it might be worth tapping up the ground staff at Cockington,pretty sure I remember magnolia there,but, damn it's a long time now,another good leaf for a viv,plus Clematis armandii are worth looking out for,it's evergreen mate.. Oak is my mainstay,but a selection looks cool and we can never have too many put aside now for the year,so this adds to your options. Buddy there is an evergreen maggie too called grandiflora,massive thick leaves,ha almost too big,but they can always be cut down. 

Well done mate,

Stu


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Yeah it's hoard the leaves time isn't it AGAIN:bash::bash::lol2:.
> 
> Rob a thought,it might be worth tapping up the ground staff at Cockington,pretty sure I remember magnolia there,but, damn it's a long time now,another good leaf for a viv,plus Clematis armandii are worth looking out for,it's evergreen mate.. Oak is my mainstay,but a selection looks cool and we can never have too many put aside now for the year,so this adds to your options. Buddy there is an evergreen maggie too called grandiflora,massive thick leaves,ha almost too big,but they can always be cut down.
> 
> ...


Haha yeah I live about 2 mins from Cockington as well :lol2: lovely place. nice bits of wood and moss about there too, which I might be tempted by as the carpet moss I got from Pollywog has gona yellow almost immediately after putting it in!! :bash::bash: I've upped the light but I feel this may make it brown even faster!

I have some Magnolia in there at the moment mate from the garden :2thumb: great sturdy leaves, lasted about a year in there now!!

How long in your experience until Tincs are full size? These are 12-14 months old now and about 1 inch long at a guess. I will check out the massive leaves they sound interesting Stu :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> Haha yeah I live about 2 mins from Cockington as well :lol2: lovely place. nice bits of wood and moss about there too, which I might be tempted by as the carpet moss I got from Pollywog has gona yellow almost immediately after putting it in!! :bash::bash: I've upped the light but I feel this may make it brown even faster!
> 
> I have some Magnolia in there at the moment mate from the garden :2thumb: great sturdy leaves, lasted about a year in there now!!
> 
> How long in your experience until Tincs are full size? These are 12-14 months old now and about 1 inch long at a guess. I will check out the massive leaves they sound interesting Stu :2thumb:


Rob, look for a thread entitled biggest tinc on DB dendrobates section,also last few pages of my thread. If you want them to get to full size then simply put my advice would be don't let them breed until 2 years old,which will mean separating them very soon ie male/s or female/s from each other. Azzies are possibly smaller than Atachis mate,i'd have to dig to be sure,but our 14 month old would be roughly 3.5 cm maybe more. Put it this way I couldn't get one in a film can. Rob I'm shattered,it's late,see if you can get me a pic beside a film can,i'm concerned if you have this size/age correct. Tincs need a sustained campaign of frequent food,low stocking densities and prevention of breeding until two as a hopeful method to rear to WC size. Mate I haven't proved this yet,but have guidance from fantastic sources. These are the beginner frog that i'm slowly concluding is one of the hardest to get right.

But 12/14 months and an inch don't add up,i thought small breifly when i looked at the picture,but pictures are hard to judge from bro,really hard.I haven't reared azzie,so might be talking cobblers mate azzies certianly aren't the biggest morph,I need to do some reading,grab me a picture Rob up against a film can tape measure, whatever,something to aid in size. guesstimation !!!!!!! 

best

Stu


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Thanks for your help Stu. Will have to look into breeding prevention then and getting some hefty springs and wood cultures on the go to compliment the flies. I will try my best to get some measurment by them to give you some idea, after looking on that thread at others Azzies tbh they dont look shockingly smaller, they are also getting bigger guts now which indicates they must be well fed haha. 

I think I am basing it largely on the ones I have seen at Zoos, and also when I popped to Richies most of his tincs seemed a pretty decent size, Azzies included.

Cheers mate



soundstounite said:


> Rob, look for a thread entitled biggest tinc on DB dendrobates section,also last few pages of my thread. If you want them to get to full size then simply put my advice would be don't let them breed until 2 years old,which will mean separating them very soon ie male/s or female/s from each other. Azzies are possibly smaller than Atachis mate,i'd have to dig to be sure,but our 14 month old would be roughly 3.5 cm maybe more. Put it this way I couldn't get one in a film can. Rob I'm shattered,it's late,see if you can get me a pic beside a film can,i'm concerned if you have this size/age correct. Tincs need a sustained campaign of frequent food,low stocking densities and prevention of breeding until two as a hopeful method to rear to WC size. Mate I haven't proved this yet,but have guidance from fantastic sources. These are the beginner frog that i'm slowly concluding is one of the hardest to get right.
> 
> But 12/14 months and an inch don't add up,i thought small breifly when i looked at the picture,but pictures are hard to judge from bro,really hard.I haven't reared azzie,so might be talking cobblers mate azzies certianly aren't the biggest morph,I need to do some reading,grab me a picture Rob up against a film can tape measure, whatever,something to aid in size. guesstimation !!!!!!!
> 
> ...


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> Thanks for your help Stu. Will have to look into breeding prevention then and getting some hefty springs and wood cultures on the go to compliment the flies. I will try my best to get some measurment by them to give you some idea, after looking on that thread at others Azzies tbh they dont look shockingly smaller, they are also getting bigger guts now which indicates they must be well fed haha.
> 
> I think I am basing it largely on the ones I have seen at Zoos, and also when I popped to Richies most of his tincs seemed a pretty decent size, Azzies included.
> 
> Cheers mate


Hmm we spent some time trying to measure frogs Rob,funny as hell,the atachi kids kept turning to see if they were getting more food. Atachis just a bit bigger than azzie,adult female around 4.5cm SVL atachi female 5.5cm roughly.
Atachi kids around 14 months somewhere in the region of 4 cm. Rob,these are not accurate figures,the only way would be with calipers,but a tape measure over the back of a frog won't be far off.

Rob I'm not there yet,but my thoughts at this time are frequent feedings,almost daily,while tincs are at this stage. They are putting away roughly twice what the other large frogs we have bred are eating,and not getting fat,like a mystie or leuc would,it's a fine line mate between flooding the viv with too much and getting a constant supply to them. Frequent smaller feeding are the key methinks. One wants food almost always available.

Tincs have a rep for not getting to the size they should, I think they are possibly one of the most difficult frogs to get it spot on with Rob.To me at this early stage they are an art form,one has the juxta position of a slow growing frog,that is almost constantly burning calories as it hunts almost constantly, trying to fulfill that isn't easy. Remember ff larvea contain more fat, so as well as the springs and woods these provide another option.Seal the ff culture and the maggot go upwards searching for air,makes harvest easier. oh another little trick a few hours after a fly feed,just a quick short hand mist,any leftover ff will start moving and so the hunt begins again.

Rob I have some really great tinc keepers at my back like Glenn,sharing their expertise,even for warned by them i'm still taken aback by just how much tincs from around the 7 month stage put away,it's bonkers mate. this will probably continue untill the growth stops,but i'm expec ting to see sings of a body shape change and weight gain,which we be my signal to start to pull back slightly

But they are such fun and so friendly,it's almost a joy to have to spend more time with them than the other frogs,as we shovel in the grub,ha they make us think of little puppies,they get so excited,I can't help but wind them up a bit before food. I'll end up with one on my nose oneday,i've already had more than one hurl itself at me.:blush:

good luck mate

Stu


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Not the best pic, but you can def see how much they grow.

A 3-4 month old beside Mom. Tell me they can't eat! :lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

brysaa2 said:


> Coco Leaves mate from Pollywog


The cops are on their way... :whistling2:


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