# UV-B for dendrobates



## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

Hi,

Not sure whether this should be in the beginners section or here. Anyway....

I'm part way through setting up a planted vivarium for dendrobates auratus and was researching the lighting requirements. I have found conflicting advice about whether UV-B is needed or not. Most web-sites say that UV-B is not necessary and you only need to provide a full spectrum only light for the plants. However, other sites say the UV-B is beneficial.

I have also replaced the wire mesh top with a 4mm plain glass but now realise that UV-B is blocked almost completely by glass (and plastics).

If somebody could point me in the right direction I would be grateful.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Like you I read all about how UV is needed for keeping darts and so spent lots of money buying expensive UV lamps.
Lately i`m finding that it`s not needed.
Plants will enjoy it but I don`t believe the frogs give a hoot.


Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Like you I read all about how UV is needed for keeping darts and so spent lots of money buying expensive UV lamps.
> Lately i`m finding that it`s not needed.
> *Plants will enjoy it* but I don`t believe the frogs give a hoot.
> 
> ...


I don't quite agree- UV is pretty much irrelevant to plants- it's the blue and red ends of the spectrum that mean anything to them. As to the frogs, though, go with Mike.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

It has always been an on going debate and they probably don't need it. However I air on the side of caution and do provide some by placing my lighting over the top vent. I think the glass Richie B uses lets some UV through and there is also UV passing Perspex from Dartfrog - Everything for the Amphibian Keeper but I have not found any anywhere else.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

All UV does for plants is at high intensities makes reds redder, a reaction by the plants to protect themselves.  They make far more use of the red and blue wavelengths of light, hence the number of 'grow' lamps that are a nasty pinky purple colour. The thing is though, there is more than enough of light from these wavelengths in everything from a 2,800 kelvin light right up to a 10,000 kelvin light. Making your choice of 'colour' irrelevant to plant growth, far more important to plants is power and intensity of the lighting you chose and of the light that reaches them. This is why I use T5HO lighting with good reflectors.

Visually however the colour of your lighting is far more important, hence most people chose lights of between 5,800k and 8,000k for vivs and freshwater aquariums, it's equally important though for aesthetics to chose a light with good colour rendition (CRI 90+). When paying good money for brightly coloured frogs, you are gonna want them to look their best. This is why I prefer either Arcadia Freshwater Pro T5HOs or ZooMed UltraSun T5HOs, with D-D gullwing reflectors.

As to UV for the frogs, the jury is out, but the consensus at present is that it's optional. Some of my vivs I have UV over (6% Arcadia D3), others I don't as the lids don't let it through, so it's pointless. Vivs without it just makes the already extremely important dietry supplementation all the more important, but all of my frogs get their food dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus.

This all said, it is suspected that SOME dart frogs do actually benefit from UV, but the evidence for this is entirely anecdotal at present.

I know I'm probably annoying people posting links to this so frequently, however I wrote an article on lighting for dart vivs and live plants in issue 1 of the BAKS newsletter, feel free to download a copy Newsletters - Newsletter Samples. We made issue 1 freely available just to help out those who don't want to join BAKS yet. 

Anyway, summary, if you want to use UV-B lighting, replace your glass top with either solacryl or optiwhite glass. If not, don't bother, you'll be wasting your money.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ha ha I'll give you the same conflicting thoughts that you have read about,i don't think uvb is needed,but i DO!!! think it might be beneficial. Have a read of Lotte's thread theories and musings on uvbThe truth is there isn't a right way to keep a dart,there is a method that will work best for you.
If you go uvb then optiwhite glass lets uvb through.
Auratus like dark areas they like cover,if your viv is brightly lit then that cover will help the frogs feel more secure,this will mean you'll see them more. personally i wouldn't go too bright for these frogs,although i would give them the option of utilising uvb, it if they want to. Simply put its your choice:2thumb:

Stu


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> All UV does for plants is at high intensities makes reds redder, a reaction by the plants to protect themselves.  They make far more use of the red and blue wavelengths of light, hence the number of 'grow' lamps that are a nasty pinky purple colour. The thing is though, there is more than enough of light from these wavelengths in everything from a 2,800 kelvin light right up to a 10,000 kelvin light. Making your choice of 'colour' irrelevant to plant growth, far more important to plants is power and intensity of the lighting you chose and of the light that reaches them. This is why I use T5HO lighting with good reflectors.
> 
> Visually however the colour of your lighting is far more important, hence most people chose lights of between 5,800k and 8,000k for vivs and freshwater aquariums, it's equally important though for aesthetics to chose a light with good colour rendition (CRI 90+). When paying good money for brightly coloured frogs, you are gonna want them to look their best. This is why I prefer either Arcadia Freshwater Pro T5HOs or ZooMed UltraSun T5HOs, with D-D gullwing reflectors.
> 
> ...


Ade your not annoying at all, I read the news letter and found it useful and well written. One thing, what are D-D gullying reflectors?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Gullwing.  Normal reflectors are just parabolic, which means the light that hits the top part gets bounced back into the tube. Gullwings are, well, wing shaped:-










More light gets bounced out under the tube. Even if you don't buy into this, they are a lot more solidly made than other brands, been made out of THICK polished aluminium, oh and the included tube clibs are metal, not plastic.

Ade


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

Thanks for the advice.

I read the lighting article in the BAKS newsletter and the type of bulb that was critised I intend using:



> "These give off a LOT of heat however, and a lot of light is wasted through a phenomena called restrike, where the light enters a different part of the bulb to create heat. An example of these would be the Exo Terra screw in bulbs to fit the compact canopy, or the commonly used household bulbs available in both bayonet and screw fitting."


In my 40x30x30 viv I will be using a ExoTerra 26W Repti Glo 2.0 lamp in a Exo-Tera compact canopy on top of a 4mm glass top on a 12hr on-off cycle. 

I found that the heat output was not significant and the lighting is very bright and does show the plants inside very well.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> All UV does for plants is at high intensities makes reds redder, a reaction by the plants to protect themselves.  They make far more use of the red and blue wavelengths of light, hence the number of 'grow' lamps that are a nasty pinky purple colour. The thing is though, there is more than enough of light from these wavelengths in everything from a 2,800 kelvin light right up to a 10,000 kelvin light. Making your choice of 'colour' irrelevant to plant growth, far more important to plants is power and intensity of the lighting you chose and of the light that reaches them. This is why I use T5HO lighting with good reflectors.
> 
> Visually however the colour of your lighting is far more important, hence most people chose lights of between 5,800k and 8,000k for vivs and freshwater aquariums, it's equally important though for aesthetics to chose a light with good colour rendition (CRI 90+). When paying good money for brightly coloured frogs, you are gonna want them to look their best. This is why I prefer either Arcadia Freshwater Pro T5HOs or ZooMed UltraSun T5HOs, with D-D gullwing reflectors.
> 
> ...





soundstounite said:


> Ha ha I'll give you the same conflicting thoughts that you have read about,i don't think uvb is needed,but i DO!!! think it might be beneficial. Have a read of Lotte's thread theories and musings on uvbThe truth is there isn't a right way to keep a dart,there is a method that will work best for you.
> If you go uvb then optiwhite glass lets uvb through.
> Auratus like dark areas they like cover,if your viv is brightly lit then that cover will help the frogs feel more secure,this will mean you'll see them more. personally i wouldn't go too bright for these frogs,although i would give them the option of utilising uvb, it if they want to. Simply put its your choice:2thumb:
> 
> Stu


I tend to avoid the darts/UV debate on the whole, since I don't keep darts- I just wonder where the myth comes from about plants needing UV? Maybe it's just that people are told a 'proper viv' needs UV, and make the association. As to (moderate) UV and 'phibs in general, Stu, I have to say that Lotte's thread and posts made me think hard about it too- on a lot of 'phib issues, she really knows her stuff. I worry about indiscriminate use, though, just as in the old days when all we had were 'black lights', with all their problems. Only a few months ago I was arguing with a young (idiot!) guy about using a 10% UV bulb with his albino corn snake- he was far more interested in following the 'formula' than the fact he might be blinding his snake...:devil:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

RedSandman said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> I read the lighting article in the BAKS newsletter and the type of bulb that was critised I intend using:
> 
> ...


You've not compared them to linear T5s is why.  The heat thing is comparitive.

That wasn't a criticism by the way, just an observation of a well know phenomena with bulb types that twist back on themselves. It's NOT brand specific, but just a 'feature' of the technology.

I wont go in to why I avoid Exo Terra bulbs. :lol2:

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The only reason I mentioned plants maybe liking the UV is that where I had UV lamps the plants did well.
But i`m moving away from using uv now so it matters not to me any more if plants like it or not.


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> I tend to avoid the darts/UV debate on the whole, since I don't keep darts- I just wonder where the myth comes from about plants needing UV? Maybe it's just that people are told a 'proper viv' needs UV, and make the association. As to (moderate) UV and 'phibs in general, Stu, I have to say that Lotte's thread and posts made me think hard about it too- on a lot of 'phib issues, she really knows her stuff. I worry about indiscriminate use, though, just as in the old days when all we had were 'black lights', with all their problems. Only a few months ago I was arguing with a young (idiot!) guy about using a 10% UV bulb with his albino corn snake- he was far more interested in following the 'formula' than the fact he might be blinding his snake...:devil:


I have no idea at all Ron. Heck, greenhouses are often designed to BLOCK UV light from getting in and damaging the plants. Maybe people red that plants can utilise light from the 'violet' end of the spectrum, and decided that this included UV light? The fact that red plants developed the red colours to protect their DNA from damage from UV though is a far bigger tell. Just to avoid confusion though, viv UV lighting doesn't give off nearly enough to harm plants.

UV with an albino though? Doesn't sound that good an idea, given the absence of melanin to protect the snake from the UV.... That said, I'm not a huge fan of albinos anyway, they tend to be much weaker.

Ade


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

RedSandman said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> I read the lighting article in the BAKS newsletter and the type of bulb that was critised I intend using:
> 
> ...


On a slightly different note your viv is a little small as a permanent home for your auratus. They will be fine for a few months but when fully grown I would say a 45cm x 45cm x 45cm should be the minimum.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> The only reason I mentioned plants maybe liking the UV is that where I had UV lamps the plants did well.
> But i`m moving away from using uv now so it matters not to me any more if plants like it or not.
> 
> 
> Mike





Wolfenrook said:


> I have no idea at all Ron. Heck, greenhouses are often designed to BLOCK UV light from getting in and damaging the plants. Maybe people red that plants can utilise light from the 'violet' end of the spectrum, and decided that this included UV light? The fact that red plants developed the red colours to protect their DNA from damage from UV though is a far bigger tell. Just to avoid confusion though, viv UV lighting doesn't give off nearly enough to harm plants.
> 
> UV with an albino though? Doesn't sound that good an idea, given the absence of melanin to protect the snake from the UV.... That said, I'm not a huge fan of albinos anyway, they tend to be much weaker.
> 
> Ade


John and Jay are far better at explaining the technical end, but in short-form, a lot of the combinations and tubes suggested for planted vivs work on the principle that a plant under a plant-friendly tube is likely to outgrow the damage caused by a UV tube. Hence, as I understand it, the combination of tubes usually recommended. I'm not hugely fond of albinos either- apart from my amel motley corn snake, pretty much all of my reps and 'phibs are 'naturals'- but plenty of people on here keep albino horned frogs (for eaxample)- so the warning is worth repeating; albinos have eyes that are very sensitive to UV; over-exposure can result in blindness.


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

fatlad69 said:


> On a slightly different note your viv is a little small as a permanent home for your auratus. They will be fine for a few months but when fully grown I would say a 45cm x 45cm x 45cm should be the minimum.


Yes, I have come to the same conclusion. I haven't got the frogs yet so I was going to use this as their growing viv. I already had it so I wanted to use it to reduce set up costs. I want to get a pair of juveniles so I can watch them grow.

Although I've set up the viv I have made a few mistakes and I have learnt a lot so hopefully their permanent home will be bigger and better.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

RedSandman said:


> Yes, I have come to the same conclusion. I haven't got the frogs yet so I was going to use this as their growing viv. I already had it so I wanted to use it to reduce set up costs. I want to get a pair of juveniles so I can watch them grow.
> 
> Although I've set up the viv I have made a few mistakes and I have learnt a lot so hopefully their permanent home will be bigger and better.


Sounds like a plan, the auratus will be ok in there for a while. It will give you enough time to set up and grow in a bigger viv.We have all made mistakes with vivs trying something new but eventually you will get it right. The viv is not a waste as if you manage to breed the frogs you can use it as a rearing viv. I have one exactly the same which I use as a quarantine viv.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> John and Jay are far better at explaining the technical end, but in short-form, a lot of the combinations and tubes suggested for planted vivs work on the principle that a plant under a plant-friendly tube is likely to outgrow the damage caused by a UV tube. Hence, as I understand it, the combination of tubes usually recommended. I'm not hugely fond of albinos either- apart from my amel motley corn snake, pretty much all of my reps and 'phibs are 'naturals'- but plenty of people on here keep albino horned frogs (for eaxample)- so the warning is worth repeating; albinos have eyes that are very sensitive to UV; over-exposure can result in blindness.


As I already pointed out Ron, hobby lamps don't produce nearly enough UV to damage plants anyway. We're talking natural sunlight levels here. Heck, you wont even get red plants to go redder using hobby UV tubes. You can however get them to go redder by using higher intensities of lighting. No offence to Jay or John, but I really don't need either of them to explain lighting for plants to me bud. :lol2: I've been experimenting with different lighting methods for growing plants for about 20 years now. : victory:

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> As I already pointed out Ron, hobby lamps don't produce nearly enough UV to damage plants anyway. We're talking natural sunlight levels here. Heck, you wont even get red plants to go redder using hobby UV tubes. You can however get them to go redder by using higher intensities of lighting. No offence to Jay or John, but I really don't need either of them to explain lighting for plants to me bud. :lol2: I've been experimenting with different lighting methods for growing plants for about 20 years now. : victory:
> 
> Ade


Me too, and I've definitely had plants wilt and die under UV.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> I tend to avoid the darts/UV debate on the whole, since I don't keep darts- I just wonder where the myth comes from about plants needing UV? Maybe it's just that people are told a 'proper viv' needs UV, and make the association. As to (moderate) UV and 'phibs in general, Stu, I have to say that Lotte's thread and posts made me think hard about it too- on a lot of 'phib issues, she really knows her stuff. I worry about indiscriminate use, though, just as in the old days when all we had were 'black lights', with all their problems. Only a few months ago I was arguing with a young (idiot!) guy about using a 10% UV bulb with his albino corn snake- he was far more interested in following the 'formula' than the fact he might be blinding his snake...:devil:


She had a saying one can't debate with morons,i think that was it. Trouble is we don't know everything Ron we must read and make the best choices we can, with the info out there,i was also greatly swayed by Mworks observations of their darts basking,and responding directly to uvb. honest i was careful in my first words needed no,there are too many darts reared without uvb benefical could be.I would also have a good guess that it is way more important to some species than others, it all depends where they live .

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Which was more likely to have been caused by the heat from the lights, or too much intensity, than from the actual UV Ron. Much like will happen in very sunny weather in a greenhouse with glass that completely block UV.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

RedSandman said:


> Yes, I have come to the same conclusion. I haven't got the frogs yet so I was going to use this as their growing viv. I already had it so I wanted to use it to reduce set up costs. I want to get a pair of juveniles so I can watch them grow.
> 
> Although I've set up the viv I have made a few mistakes and I have learnt a lot so hopefully their permanent home will be bigger and better.


Buddy be aware that young auratus are very difficult to sax and they also grow pretty quick,i guess somewhere about 6months should be closing on full size. Also be aware that i have seen a young auratus in its first week jump nearly the length of your viv,so this home will be VERY temporary.
Good luck with your new frogs mate,which ever way you look at it knocking this little tank out will have taught you loads:2thumb:

Stu


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## REDDEV1L (Nov 27, 2008)

The edges of my native ferns' leaves that got too close to my bulb would go black and die off, (I use 10%s for everything) I have noticed however that it hasn't happened this year, the plant has grown more and even spored & germinated this year.
(The UV output is minimal now, as the bulb is over 2 years old !!!! It's outlasted every other bulb twice over !!! WEIRD)


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Gullwing.  Normal reflectors are just parabolic, which means the light that hits the top part gets bounced back into the tube. Gullwings are, well, wing shaped:-
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Where can you get these reflectors?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I get them from here bud Deltec T5 Razor Lighting Systems - AquariumSuperstore - The UK's Leading Online Aquatic Retailer (Razor Reflectors). Only a tiny bit dearer than Arcadia ones. The design of them means I can just rest them directly on the tops of my glass vivs and still have enough of a gap between the tube and the viv to avoid overheating the glass.  The actually combine really really well with Arcadia tubes though, or any other tube for that matter, but the ultimate (without going Geissman) is probably Arcadia Freshwater Pro with these reflectors.

Ade


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Does anyone blast their frogs once a wek with high powered U.V.B. bulbs like some do in Holland and Germany?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

colinm said:


> Does anyone blast their frogs once a wek with high powered U.V.B. bulbs like some do in Holland and Germany?


I'm not exactly sure how high powered Colin,but Mworks do,see their thread on dendroworld for detail,they use optiwhite doors and the histo's come out and bask,def.worth a read!
regards
Stu


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Great thread: victory:

I'll just point a couple of things out, Ade is 100% right the UV from a reptile lamp isn't enough to cause damage to the plant per say, but lamps uv or not fitted too close to the top of a plant will cause localised burning over time, UV lamps then increase the speed of this reaction after the initial heat damage occurs. 

This is why like Ade said we recommend using a high lux "Gro" lamp alongside the UV lamps.

The debate about efficacy will rage for years to come but for me I am always driven back to the wild. Can the animal be exposed to natural sunlight at all in the wild? If the answer is probably then the animal will have a use for it..that is natural selection in action! Wether it is for the D3 cycle (plenty of emerging thought to suggest that they do use the D3 cycle) or just to "activate" true wild type vision through access to UVA and short wavelength UVA.

So providing a measured dose over the right time frame and reflected well must be a good idea.

The % of lamp used is meaningless! You must only choose a % with the species, true power output of lamp and distance between lamp and animal in mind.

Would I use a 12% T5 over darts???? Hell yeah! If the species required a certain index and the viv was massive! We all know that the power of UVB decreases in scary numbers the further from the lamp light travels....that is how we choose what's right.

Let me explain, if a 6% lamp generates a usable index to your species at say 40cms from the subject and you changed your viv to be 70-80cm high you would need to increase the % of tube. Whatever happens at the basking spot 40cms from the ground the index is relatively the same, the height of the viv has decreased the power available.

As for albinos, I still believe that most albino reptiles will use light in the same ways as the norms, we just have to provide a well thought out gradient over a portion of the enclosure and provide loads of hides, then let the real expert choose when and where to self regulate. 

Reptiles and amphibs have been using the sun to sustain life for more years than I can imagine. I'm sure they are well able to take what they need, when. In our enclosures.

As for the UV boosting method, I think this was originally designed by colchester zoo. Personally in would rather provide a measured dose over a shorter period each day and let the animals choose than blast them with 160w M.V lamps!!!! 

Well that's my thoughts.


There is loads of info on the website about albinos if anyone wants any further more in-depth reading.

Good luck all : victory:

John.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Great thread: victory:
> 
> I'll just point a couple of things out, Ade is 100% right the UV from a reptile lamp isn't enough to cause damage to the plant per say, but lamps uv or not fitted too close to the top of a plant will cause localised burning over time, UV lamps then increase the speed of this reaction after the initial heat damage occurs.
> 
> ...


Makes sense.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I get them from here bud Deltec T5 Razor Lighting Systems - AquariumSuperstore - The UK's Leading Online Aquatic Retailer (Razor Reflectors). Only a tiny bit dearer than Arcadia ones. The design of them means I can just rest them directly on the tops of my glass vivs and still have enough of a gap between the tube and the viv to avoid overheating the glass.  The actually combine really really well with Arcadia tubes though, or any other tube for that matter, but the ultimate (without going Geissman) is probably Arcadia Freshwater Pro with these reflectors.
> 
> Ade


Cheers Ade


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Hiya John

Just to continue on from your comments about using a 12% UV lamp over a viv deeper than 40cm, I'd use slightly different methodology to this myself and continue to use the 6%. You mention why yourself in discussing albino animals, UV gradients. By still using the 6% this would give you a good 20cm of viv hight with negligable to low amounts of UV, increasing as you move towards the top of the viv. Combined with providing plenty of climbing decor, this means your darts can regulate the UV they are exposed to far better. Plenty of people now have given anecdotal evidence that darts do regulate in this way, exhibiting basking behaviour. Like you, I'd be inclined to let them make the choice again.  As you already know, I use the best reflectors I can get. 

Thanks for backing that hobby UV lamps don't produce enough UV to damage plants directly, I can't take credit for mentioning about using a 'gro' lamp as well though. That said, I ALWAYS use 2 tubes, whether one is UV or not. If a viv needs more shade, I simply shade a part of it using a cover between the lamp and the viv top, with gaps where all of the light can get through, giving me spots where I can still put plants that need more light. I only have to do this for my d. auratus ancon hill though, as like many auratus they become extremely shy if brightly lit, prefering shade. All of my other vivs get the full light, but in taller vivs I end up with a 'canopy' made up of bromeliads, providing shade lower down in the viv. The vivs I use UV over though have optiwhite tops, so I don't have the problem of having to punch through mesh.

I will also add, of all the lamps I have tried that give off 5% or more UV-B, the Arcadia D3s are the most suited to use with plants, whilst also promoting frog and plant colours. Many folks know that I don't usually have ties to one particular brand for tubes, UV-B tubes are the 1 exception to this, I always use Arcadia ones. I've tried other brands, and they left me unimpressed.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

I'd go with the 6% tube aswell,Ade,similar thoughts i suppose,part optiwhite tops to my vivs,auratus not being overly fond of bright areas,but the uvb would be there if they want it.the structure of all of our vivs means whey would be able to easily get up fairly close to bask if they should so desire.It's this, the frog being able to choose,which is my favoured option:especially for a species such as auratus.We both keep them and know first hand what they like,too much light reaching the floor. 

Beyond that we use alot of these T5 6% arcadia bulbs,i love them our plants do great and the frogs are also doing really well. I know little of the science of these lights like Ade and John,there are a few products that i would recommend because they do what i want from them,these bulbs are one of them
good thread guys 

Stu


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes Ade your right!! What I should have made clear in my post :blush: is that I was referring to animals that are disinclined to climb high, your theory is correct! Animals that can and will actively climb will self regulate throughout the enclosure using a form of tertrachromacy. This amazing gift of million upon millions of colours let's them see UV and its gradients. They can then move thier own bodies to obtain the exposure that they require at that moment,,,if they do.

So the taller the viv the more power is required at source for non climbing or disinclined to climb animals, a good reflected bqckground system can be used and maintained by those that actively climb.

Our belief is very simple, "all the secrets of great captive care are hidden in the wild animal" if we can all learn from each other about our experiences with captive animals and gleen data from locals and or trappers we will really start to motor with our care and as such produce many more viable, strong offspring! That's why I love to be a part of these forums!! It's just one big long life lesson.

John,





Wolfenrook said:


> Hiya John
> 
> Just to continue on from your comments about using a 12% UV lamp over a viv deeper than 40cm, I'd use slightly different methodology to this myself and continue to use the 6%. You mention why yourself in discussing albino animals, UV gradients. By still using the 6% this would give you a good 20cm of viv hight with negligable to low amounts of UV, increasing as you move towards the top of the viv. Combined with providing plenty of climbing decor, this means your darts can regulate the UV they are exposed to far better. Plenty of people now have given anecdotal evidence that darts do regulate in this way, exhibiting basking behaviour. Like you, I'd be inclined to let them make the choice again.  As you already know, I use the best reflectors I can get.
> 
> ...


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I know that John cant comment on this but Exoterra are bringing out a range of new compact bulbs and m.v.b that offer a different range in the colour spectrum.It will be interesting to see what these are like.

With reference to the u.v. gradients how can you be so sure that they are regulating the u.v. and not temperature?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

You can't Colin, but given that I use Repashy Calcium plus, I'm not overly worried about my frogs not producing enough D3, and with a 6% tube they are unlikely to be harmed by the UV anyway. I certainly wouldn't rely on UV-B for D3 production in poison dart frogs. The only way to prove it was UV regulation would be to ensure that all levels of your viv were the same temperature, as a hobbyist I'm not about to do this.

Nobody has proven that UV is needed for dart frogs, but nobody has proven that it does any harm. We spend our money, we make our choices. We do however know that our frogs CAN regulate their exposure to UV, they have the mechanism there, is it worth second guessing this? That said, only a small number of my dart vivs actually have a UV lamp on them, most don't. I've yet to be convinced that the frogs I keep NEED UV, and a lot of my vivs are made from normal high iron content glass, rendering UV pointless anyway.

Ade


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> I'd go with the 6% tube aswell,Ade,similar thoughts i suppose,part optiwhite tops to my vivs,auratus not being overly fond of bright areas,but the uvb would be there if they want it.the structure of all of our vivs means whey would be able to easily get up fairly close to bask if they should so desire.It's this, the frog being able to choose,which is my favoured option:especially for a species such as auratus.We both keep them and know first hand what they like,too much light reaching the floor.
> 
> Beyond that we use alot of these T5 6% arcadia bulbs,i love them our plants do great and the frogs are also doing really well. I know little of the science of these lights like Ade and John,there are a few products that i would recommend because they do what i want from them,these bulbs are one of them
> good thread guys
> ...


May have to reconsider getting a pair of Auratus. The viv is very bright with only a few shady areas. Perhaps, there will be more shade once the Broms have grown a bit.

Are there other species which can tolerate more light and are less sensitive?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Any chance of you posting a photo of your viv to let us see how much light you actually have ?
It might be that what you have IS acceptable for what you want.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

RedSandman said:


> May have to reconsider getting a pair of Auratus. The viv is very bright with only a few shady areas. Perhaps, there will be more shade once the Broms have grown a bit.
> 
> Are there other species which can tolerate more light and are less sensitive?


Buddy you can always pop something between the light and the frogs ie on top of the viv to shield out some of the light...Ade mention's this somewhere in this thread he'll tell you what he used.I know of folks cutting leaf shaped holes in said shading to duplicate dappled light of a forest floor. 
Honestly,by the time the broms have grown in the frogs will have out grown the viv anyway,personally i have greater reservations about the viv size than the lighting. the lighting is easily overcome,its great you have got a viv built out,i desparately want you to get going with darts.But the viv is tiny for such an active group of diurnal frogs(i don't just mean auratus here mate).

Even the little thumbnails i wouldn't personally go smaller than a 40cm cube.

Red i'm warey of advisng you to start with thumbnails.If you love auratus then go for them ,but get them a bigger viv. We start d/o auratus ina tank bigger than this,plus as your first frogs you don't want tiny babies,you want something alittle bit forgiving of any tiny errors you make

My thoughts are that you should get a bigger viv,get some well grown frogs at least 3 months,preferably abit older,if it takes you longer use this time for your benefit to get better at your culturing,research and a slow approach will make your time in the hobby way more enjoyable
regards

Stu


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

OK heres a few pictures of the viv.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I use 2 pieces of black fablon, still on the backing paper. You do have to make sure they're not so close to the light as to get hot though as that would be a fire risk. Mine barely get warm. This combined with lots of plants and wood give my auratus plenty of shade. Ancon Hill auratus are probably one of the shyest I have heard of, I know of people who sold them as they got sick of not seeing them, but with these methods I see mine loads.

As to thumbnails, I have no hesitation in saying that if you do things right they're no more difficult than larger frogs. They're just faster and very reliant on the availability of very small foods. Auratus aren't exactly easy, if you want an 'easy' dart then you want d. leucomelas, but you still need a bigger viv.

Heck, with the right food etc, even pums aren't hard to KEEP, it's rearing their young that's the fiddly part...

Whatever you want to keep, if you get the right advice, do the right research, get your preparation right, you can succeed.

Ade


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## RedSandman (Sep 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Buddy you can always pop something between the light and the frogs ie on top of the viv to shield out some of the light...Ade mention's this somewhere in this thread he'll tell you what he used.I know of folks cutting leaf shaped holes in said shading to duplicate dappled light of a forest floor.
> Honestly,by the time the broms have grown in the frogs will have out grown the viv anyway,personally i have greater reservations about the viv size than the lighting. the lighting is easily overcome,its great you have got a viv built out,i desparately want you to get going with darts.But the viv is tiny for such an active group of diurnal frogs(i don't just mean auratus here mate).
> 
> Even the little thumbnails i wouldn't personally go smaller than a 40cm cube.
> ...


Stu, I will take your advice. This viv hasn't been wasted. Putting it all together and reseraching all the different methods of setup and construction I have learnt a lot.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Your viv doesn`t look too bright to me so i`d stop worrying.
Once all the plants get properly grown in there will be plenty of shade for whatever frogs you get.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

RedSandman said:


> Stu, I will take your advice. This viv hasn't been wasted. Putting it all together and reseraching all the different methods of setup and construction I have learnt a lot.


Wonderful attitude:notworthy: not because your taking my advice(it matters not),but because your listening and trying your best,good for you!!! I totally agree buddy your time hasn't been wasted. Ade's eloquent post above also makes much sense. Regarding thumbnails ,the reason I'm slightly hesitant to go for them as first frogs is simply,the size gives you slightly less options regarding ff culturing,your mainstay feeder. 
On every level i wish you well with your frogs,I'm sure they are going to have a great home
best

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I find my small frogs easier to feed than my bigger frogs Stu, hence I see things a bit differently. Ok so it's not an option to give them bean weevils or crickets, but mels are easier to culture than hydei, faster too, and springtails are so easy it's silly.  If I have problems with my cultures it's always my tincs who show signs of losing weight first, along with the leucs, where my pums and vents can even manage to get by on springtails and the inverts their vivs are seeded with longer. 

All that said, they ARE a lot faster usually, and it can take some getting used to with how diddy they are. To my mind though dart keepers should be getting their culturing right anyway, so should have all the foods the smaller frogs need anyway really. Anybody looking for a frog that you can feed by just buying bugs in should probably focus on keeping larger tree frogs, fire bellied toads etc. They'd feel it to be less of a chore.

These days I reckon there's a LOT more help, advice and information available for people willing to put the effort in to get it. Naturally I still believe though that some darts are best left to keepers with a bit of experience with other small frogs, eg. escudos, sylvatica and the like. Heck, auratus are less forgiving of newbies than french guyana or Borja Ridge vents in my experience and observation.  I'd rather try to help somebody to keep the frogs they absolutely want from the off. 

All of this said, I would still always advise folks new to darts to go for d. leucomelas, if they like them.  As to this viv, Just keep it running for a while Red, you may even just find that you end up needing it to house baby frogs pretty quickly if you buy adult sexually mature frogs, or you can keep it growing in etc for the day you feel the confidence to try out a small species. 

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I find my small frogs easier to feed than my bigger frogs Stu, hence I see things a bit differently. Ok so it's not an option to give them bean weevils or crickets, but mels are easier to culture than hydei, faster too, and springtails are so easy it's silly.  If I have problems with my cultures it's always my tincs who show signs of losing weight first, along with the leucs, where my pums and vents can even manage to get by on springtails and the inverts their vivs are seeded with longer.
> 
> All that said, they ARE a lot faster usually, and it can take some getting used to with how diddy they are. To my mind though dart keepers should be getting their culturing right anyway, so should have all the foods the smaller frogs need anyway really. Anybody looking for a frog that you can feed by just buying bugs in should probably focus on keeping larger tree frogs, fire bellied toads etc. They'd feel it to be less of a chore.
> 
> ...


I'm cool with the above Ade,i have slightly different views driven by slightly different experiences.Hydie are rock solid for us mels slightly more variable. We have the bases covered with feed,so have never really ever struggled to feed anyone. With all the big kids we have reared now,it has never been an option to drop the ball as it were.I agree entirely help Red get going and anyone else we can draw into this amazing world of phib keeping,i hope my above posts didn't come over as otherwise,
Virtually the only real strong view i have is tiny vivs,I'm no fan never have been.

The easiest way to deal with auratus as a first dart is to set them up a simple Qt tub,this way one's viv gets more growing in time and one has a senario where it is damn easy to check that the frogs are thriving,naturally there is that added benefit that Qt ensures,if problems ensue.ha ha unless it is one of our tincs whom just hates the tub:whistling2:
I also adore leucs,would recommend them to anyone,mind if a guy wants to keep auratus,hell i'm going to chuck all i can at him,they are such fabulous darts.

These slightly different views are the point of a forum to me,its why they are so valuable,one gets a variety of answers,one doesn't get in a book:how different challenges are met in different circumstances 
best

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I don't actually disagree with you Stu, in a lot of circumstances I'd actually completely agree with you. Some newbies absolutely shouldn't start with smaller frogs, as it would lead to disaster, I see a lot of newbies about these days though who with guidance etc would be fine starting with small frogs, so just wont say that across the board newbies shouldn't start with smaller frogs. 

Regarding small vivs, I do actually own 3 smaller vivs, these are 30cm x 40cm x40cm (w x d x h). In 1 I have a small group of French Guyana vents, in another I have a pair of black jeans o. pumilio and the 3rd I used to grow on my d. t. regina froglets. This size is fine for the vents, however for pums like you Stu I feel at least a 40cm cube is better suited, with a 40x40x60 tall actually been better. With a larger viv you can have more open floor space in which your frogs can forage amongst leaf litter, with lots of broms higher up, and plenty of climbing and hiding spaces still, where a smaller viv you can't have the larger wide open spaces without sacrificing climbing and hiding places.

Ade


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi all, 

Just to say, I still 100% believe that Dendrobates require UVB exposure in captivity. 




Arcadiajohn said:


> As for the UV boosting method, I think this was originally designed by colchester zoo.


It was Douglas Sheriff at Chester Zoo


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Ha ha yes your right, I've got colchester on the Brain at the mo!

John


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Saedcantas said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just to say, I still 100% believe that Dendrobates require UVB exposure in captivity.
> 
> ...


I've never been _quite_ convinced of the UV arguement, but you may be pleased to know I direct people to your sticky when the question comes up, anyway! :lol2:

Where you bin, anyway? Are you back?


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