# Reptiles skinned alive



## JAM3S (Jan 17, 2007)

check out the daily mail today. 

Pythons skinned and left to die. The shocking reality behind fashion's new obsession | the Daily Mail


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

theres a topic about this in the snakes section, 
Its digusting


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## sea_beaver (Jul 17, 2007)

jeesus christ, thats sick!! how could they be so inhmane?
wish we could turn the tables on em, i wrote a comment, tis sickening


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## JAM3S (Jan 17, 2007)

yeah i double posted sorry. :icon_redface: i couldnt beleive when i saw it though! its sick


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*It is horrifying*

But....do you think you can do anything to alter it?

This is something that affects the exotics industry also. For we are tarred with the same brush of cruelty, yet we preserve species and they are blatantly not.

These people who practice this type of supply and demand for the fashion industry should be stopped, shouldn't they?

If so how could the exotics' industry affect that?

So you will not be getting a pair of python boots then?

Rory
Pro keepers Lobby


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## K.J.Geckos (Sep 7, 2006)

omg that is sick.im so glad im not a fassion victim.thats just pathetic


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Before you all get sucked into this story too far please be aware that the same people who want to stop us from keeping reptiles also want the fashion industry to stop wearing them. In the same way that they lie about us, they also lie about the activities of the skin trade.
The Antis biggest mouth piece is a guy called Clifford Warwick. His credentials are perhaps best described as dubious and his ability to spin a yarn rivals anything done by Agather Christie and Enid Blyton combined.
I note the article quotes him as saying 
‘It is really a convention on trade and not on protection,' says Clifford Warwick, a consultant biologist (?) and one of Britain's leading reptile experts(????). 
'Any quotas set by CITES or by anyone else I take with an absolute pinch of salt.' 
My advice to everyone is to take any information disseminated by Mr Warwick with a similar pinch of salt.
This editorial CROCODILE SPECIALIST GROUP NEWSLETTER 183A
from back in 1999 in Crocodile Specialists Group newsletter (about half way down) may be of interest to anyone wanting to read more about the real skin industry and their views on Mr Warwicks statements.

Remember the press love stories of animal suffering and persecution. They don't care if they are accurate as long as it sells papers.

Natrix


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

Well... I think i would have alot to say about this.. To be honest after reading it, i'm appalled.. And if i had my way i'd be skinning the people who do these such acts.. Maybe thats just me being so disgusted after reading it that i'm a little annoyed. But yeah...

People like Roberto Cavalli, Jimmy Choo,Sienna Miller,Devi Kroell, Calvin Klein, Zagliani, Jennifer Lopez,Eva Longoria, Prada, should ALL Be boycotted! and there should be something done about this.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Mmm*

Indeed Gordon, 

However, l do feel that there is possibly a connection here between this piece of news information and the European Protected Species Act.

Here we have victims of fashion, being dressed in victims of the wild, whilst in the UK at present, we have 500K of animals potentially on the slaughter block.

Now we can either surrender them.....to our museums for preservation, mmm .... or alternatively sell them to the fashion industry, make a quick buck.

Goodness this would be one way for an organization to clear a debt l'd say. Selling them to the fashion industry...........wow, now that is inspirational.

Crap of course, because that would not be acceptable.

But then is killing nearly half a million animals? 

Because of a 13 year blunder?

R


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Indeed Gordon,
> 
> However, l do feel that there is possibly a connection here between this piece of news information and the European Protected Species Act.
> 
> ...


I think there may well be a big connection between the EPS and the writings of people like Mr Warwick.
Take a read of another piece of Mr Warwicks narrative 
Animal Aid: THE REPTILE PET TRADE
Then consider what the fashion victims and the nice folk at DEFRA must think of us. Remember they wouldn't know any more about the reality of our industry than we do about theirs.

G


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## powderpuff_girl (Mar 5, 2007)

i wont even wear leather!!! thats sick


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

did i miss something? i clicked on the link in the first post. i didn't see where i was supposed to click to see them skinning stuff alive or anything. can anyone show me where to see that stuff you all saw?


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## powderpuff_girl (Mar 5, 2007)

HABU said:


> did i miss something? i clicked on the link in the first post. i didn't see where i was supposed to click to see them skinning stuff alive or anything. can anyone show me where to see that stuff you all saw?


 

_Pythons skinned alive and left to die in agony. Alligators killed with hammers and chisels. This is the truly shocking reality behind fashion's shameful new obsession:_ 
At a slaughterhouse, deep in the Javanese jungle, blood-stained hands untie a wriggling sack and pull out a ten-foot long python. 
The snake is stunned with a blow to the head from the back of a machete and a hose pipe expertly forced between its jaws. Next, the water is turned on and the reptile fills up — swelling like a balloon. 
It will be left like that for ten minutes or so, a leather cord tied around its neck to prevent the liquid escaping. 
Then its head is impaled on a meat hook, a couple of quick incisions follow, and the now-loosened skin peeled off with a series of brutal tugs - much like a rubber glove from a hand. 
From there the skin will be sent to a tannery before being turned into luxury shoes or handbags. Finally, they will be snapped up by an army of pampered Western fashionistas desperate for the latest look and happy to pay thousands of pounds to get it. 
Meanwhile, back in Indonesia, the python's peeled body is simply tossed on a pile of similarly stripped snakes. After a day or two of unimaginable agony it will die from the effects of shock or dehydration. 
Barbaric, cruel, stomach turning - those are just a few of the words used by those who have witnessed snakes being skinned alive. But in Europe, the mention of reptile skin - be it snake, lizard, alligator or crocodile - draws a very different response and a very different vocabulary. 
'Exotic skins are hot right now, there's a real buzz,' enthuses designer Roberto Cavalli, who has dressed Kate Moss to Sharon Stone. 
'I love to use reptile skins because it excites me to take material that is seen as "wild" and mix it with a look that shouts glamour and sophistication.' 
Sad to say, Cavalli is not alone in the fashion world in his attitude to the latest must-have 'fabric'. The European Union is the world's biggest importer of reptile skins. 
Between 2000 and 2005, it is estimated that 3.4 million lizard, 2.9 million crocodile and 3.4 million snake skins were brought into the EU. 
And this year, like never before, skin is most certainly 'in'. Indeed, the hottest fashion debate in town is not about the ethics of the trade - but whether to opt for python or anaconda. 
Take, for example, Jimmy Choo, makers of shoes and bags. The high-end fashion house's £1,695 Rio clutch handbag is available in the skins of either of the above. 
Or what about treading in Sienna Miller's fashion footsteps with a pair of python-skin boots by the American designer Devi Kroell? Yours for just a shade under £1,000. Something else? Try Calvin Klein's alligator jackets, Celine's white python skirt or a metallic python bag by Zagliani - injected with silicone for an ultra-soft feel. 
Jennifer Lopez has been spotted out and about sporting the Zag-bag while Desperate Housewives star Eva Longoria's passion for a giant £1,300 python bag by Prada saw websites inundated with drooling postings from envious fashion-watchers. 
'Wow will you look at that!!!,' wrote one such contributor. 'You get a lotta python for your money. It's beautiful!' But, as environmentalists are only too quick to point out, it looks a whole lot more beautiful on the snake. 
On the banks of the River Arno there's an Italian town whose motto goes as follows: 'Always make sure people walk on Santa Croce shoes and dress in Santa Croce skins'. 
As the saying implies, Santa Croce has been the home of the Italian tanning industry for centuries. But, while it has traditionally specialised in treating hides from cattle and sheep, nowadays the factories are full of the skins of exotic species such as snakes, crocodiles and ostriches. 
Make no mistake, it's big business - the Centro Rettili, one of the largest tanneries, last year dealt with 3,000 individual crocodile skins and 50,000 snakes - producing 170,000 metres of python skin (roughly 100 miles, the distance from London to Birmingham). 
The three-storey factory is run by Roberto Bachi, who set up the company in 1985 and has 20 employees. 
Their work consists of turning the sundried skins that arrive at the tannery into a material that is both workable and highly desirable. 
'We work for all the big designer labels - Versace, Gucci, Chanel, La Croix and Fendi and the skins are used for handbags, belts and shoes,' explains Mr Bachi. 
The crocodile skins, he says, are farmed in America while the snakes are imported from Indonesia. 'In the Indonesian jungle, they are caught using ropes. I know some of these poor people have been killed in the process,' he adds. 
'They have been crushed or strangled to death and the python also ingests its prey once it is dead - it's not a very pleasant end if you are caught by a python.' Very true Signor Bachi. But reverse the roles and the same is true. 
Equally pertinent are the growing concerns about the impact the reptile skin trade is having on fragile species and the eco-systems in which they live. 
For while the fashion industry defends its use of these animals by claiming that they are either farmed or harvested under a strict system of quotas, environmentalists say the reality of what is happening is not that simple. 
Consider the plight of the reticulated python, the most popular of snakes when it comes to the manufacture of shoes and handbags. 
Found primarily in South East Asia, it is the world's longest snake, with exceptional specimens growing up to 30 ft in length. It is fast growing, has a beautifully patterned skin and has been plentiful in the past. 
However, experts warn that the population is under severe threat. 
This is recognised in part by the fact it is on Appendix II of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species - an agreement to which more than 170 countries have put their names. CITES aims to protect specific species from extinction by controlling the trade in these animals. 
This year, for instance, it stipulated that 157,000 reticulated python skins could be exported from Indonesia. The figure has stayed relatively stable for years and one might be forgiven for imagining that the population can sustain the removal of that number of snakes every year. 
But those on the ground say that simply is not the case. Dr Mark Auliya is based in Malaysia and is the South East Asian scientific officer for TRAFFIC, an organisation linked to the World Wildlife Fund which helps monitor the international wildlife trade. 
He warns that the reticulated python population is under pressure. 'While the quota established by the Governmental authorities stays the same, every year the hunting areas required to fulfill that quota grows larger,' he said. 
'This means that 20 years ago a certain amount of pythons could be harvested from a much smaller area than today. 
'Also, there is clear evidence that large specimens are getting rarer and rarer. It shows that the reticulated python cannot cope in the long term with the high out-take by the commercial skin trade.' 
While clearly better than nothing, the CITES quota system has long been criticised for being far too 'generous'. 
'It is really a convention on trade and not on protection,' says Clifford Warwick, a consultant biologist and one of Britain's leading reptile experts. 
'Any quotas set by CITES or by anyone else I take with an absolute pinch of salt.' 
For every animal or animal product that goes through the system legally, it is estimated that another will be smuggled. Evidence of the scale of this illicit trade emerged recently when more than half a ton of python skins were discovered hidden in audio speaker parts in a lorry being driven from Malaysia to Singapore. 
'In Indonesia relatively low-level bribery gets something through,' says Mr Warwick.' 
CITES certificates can be bought at very little cost, forged or copied and they are very rarely inspected. It is not a problem - it is simple to move snake and reptile skins around. 
'If you have half your trade in the world slipping through the net, you effectively have no control.' 
Both Dr Auliya and Mr Warwick's own experiences also raise questions about claims that the snakes or reptile skins used in the fashion industry come from farmed stocks. Mr Warwick says that less than 10 per cent of reptiles are farmed because the process is too expensive and too complicated. 
Even alligator ranches in America, he explains, have to be 'topped up' with wild adult specimens because the breeding process has such a high mortality rate. 
'The slaughter process is pretty dire,' says Mr Warwick. 
'The snakes are often nailed to a tree with a large nail. It doesn't kill them because they have a small brain and there's little chance of actually hitting it. 
'The hunters then slice round the base of the head and peel the skin clean off the live animal and then throw the still-living carcass onto a pile and leave it to die. It can take hours or days for them to die from dehydration or shock - it is a really dreadful thing for them to do.' 
He continues: 'In other places they will decapitate the animal before skinning. The problem is that decapitating the snake doesn't kill it instantly. 
'With a snake the head will be alive for an hour or two hours - completely conscious, completely sensitive to pain, fear and everything else. 
'That comes about because their metabolic rate is much lower and slower than ours and accustomed to low blood pressure. The nervous system is quite resistant to lack of oxygen and continues to survive without its body for some time.' 
Equally disturbing, says Mr Warwick, is witnessing alligators being skinned at U.S. ranches. They are clubbed to death or have a chisel smashed through their spinal cord with a hammer ('it paralyses the animal and they then get a short knife and slice through as many blood vessels they can reach - so you have a paralysed animal that is slowly bleeding to death and that usually goes through the skinning process before it is dead'). 
The gulf between the blood and gore of the 'harvest' and the boutiques that sell the end products could hardly be more stark. In London's exclusive Harvey Nichols, for instance, they are selling Zagliani python clutch bags for £725. They are highly sought after because the snake skin from which it is made is treated with silicone. 
It is a technique developed by Mauro Orietti-Carella, the man behind the Zagliani label, who insists that the snake skin he uses is always CITES certificated. 
Carella said: 'I think it's very important to keep the equilibrium of nature so what is taken out of the environment is replaced - I deal in a very honourable way with skins.' They are fine words. But quite what they count for, in the jungles of Java, one can only wonder.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

yes but where do i click to see it for myself?


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

HABU said:


> did i miss something? i clicked on the link in the first post. i didn't see where i was supposed to click to see them skinning stuff alive or anything. can anyone show me where to see that stuff you all saw?


Habu
You won't see anything as Mr Warwick never seems to have a camera with him when he comes across these barbaric acts.

There is a similar problem with the loch ness monster. People see it but never seem able to get good photo evidence. 

Natrix


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## powderpuff_girl (Mar 5, 2007)

HABU said:


> yes but where do i click to see it for myself?


the link my dear


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

powderpuff_girl said:


> the link my dear


NO, thats just a link to the inane writings of an animal rights extremist. Habu is asking to see proof of the claimes.
As normal we are asked to believe everything being said without any proof.

When skinning any animal, the skin is easier to remove after the animal has been dead for several hours. Why make life harder and more dangerous by trying to skin them alive?

Natrix


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

then it's hearsay. it doesnt exist. in order to accuse, you have to back it up with believeable evidence. he said that she said....doesn't cut it. for an example, if i said natrix landed on mars, those are just words and don't mean anything. believing hearsay is what gets innocent men locked up for 20 years. "you can't believe everything you read" is universal. you are right. it's designed to be inflammitory and to excite those who are predispositioned to just react to things instead of thoughtfully processing the evidence. i'm just glad those suckers that believe everything they read aren't judges. we'd all be screwed. one can't just take a snippet of a rumor and just run with it. like you implied, that's how legends are made. that's how urban legends begin. i'm still looking for them GATORS in the sewers of new york city. they have to be there..... i read about them in the paper!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

are videos being downloaded right now?


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

HABU said:


> then it's hearsay. it doesnt exist. in order to accuse, you have to back it up with believeable evidence. he said that she said....doesn't cut it. for an example, if i said natrix landed on mars, those are just words and don't mean anything. believing hearsay is what gets innocent men locked up for 20 years. "you can't believe everything you read" is universal. you are right. it's designed to be inflammitory and to excite those who are predispositioned to just react to things instead of thoughtfully processing the evidence. i'm just glad those suckers that believe everything they read aren't judges. we'd all be screwed. one can't just take a snippet of a rumor and just run with it. like you implied, that's how legends are made. that's how urban legends begin. i'm still looking for them GATORS in the sewers of new york city. they have to be there..... i read about them in the paper!


There are loads of urban legends out there and the force behind this report is responsible for a lot of them.
I'm still waiting for someone to catch one of the many crocs that are supposed to be swimming around in UK lakes and why can't I find an alligator for sale at my local pub.

I notice nobody has commented on the link I put up to one of Cliffies other massives at Animal Aid: THE REPTILE PET TRADE
Is everyone happy to believe his report on the reptile trade and hobby?

Natrix

PS Habu, did you get my pics of our trip to Pluto? We had such good weather for our holiday:lol2:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

HABU said:


> are videos being downloaded right now?


Don't hold your breath.
The skin trade is very savvy when it comes to the AR brigade. The chances of them letting the likes of Cliffy (who is well known to them) onto their premises along with any kind or recording equipment is extremly low.

Natrix


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

hey natrix, look at the thread "royal in bath" i think it is. see how it pushes the sensational!! that's why they want to take away the exotics there. someone publishes something and people eat it up. if it's in the paper, they seem to take it hook, line and sinker. to me, it seems like they can turn a garter snake into a man eating monster. are most brits that gullible? most here appear to be ok.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

HABU said:


> hey natrix, look at the thread "royal in bath" i think it is. see how it pushes the sensational!! that's why they want to take away the exotics there. someone publishes something and people eat it up. if it's in the paper, they seem to take it hook, line and sinker. to me, it seems like they can turn a garter snake into a man eating monster. are most brits that gullible? most here appear to be ok.


Yep, well spotted, I've been watching both reports pan out.
We have a strange situation in the UK at the moment which I'm still trying to get my head around. If the media do a bad report about another part of society then everyone else is only to happy to join in and become part of the mob. If the media then attacks their lifestyle it is wrong, crazy, all hype etc. Durring the ant hunt campaigns I had a conversation with a group of fox hunters who thought me evil for keeping reptiles while proclaiming all the media coverage of their sport as rubbish.

The other classic is when you see reptile keepers joining in with AR reports and having a go about bad reptile keepers. They don't seem to realise that the bad reptile keepers the AR brigade are talking about is themselves.

If I work on it all a bit more I think I should be able to raise myself to the level of confused :crazy:

Natrix


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

that's it! you hit the nail on the head...simply mob mentality, a thirst for sensationalism, pure and simple...instant gratification. i think there are TOO many BORED folks around looking for something to go oooh-awwww!. read the papers there with the fantastic stories. the media milks everything for all it's worth....same happens here 24-7!


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Interesting commentary*

Very true gentlemen, however as bad as Warrick may be. There are some truths to be had.

This is obviously from Animal Aids perspective and they use it as campaign literature: Animal Aid: THE REPTILE PET TRADE to win over the empathy vote from all those unsuspecting folks whom know no better as to the real truths behind the industry and keeping of reptiles.

Equally as much as they write the garbled article.

The facts are that there are a lot of wild caught specimens still hitting the reptile industy - no l talk not of the husbandry they refer to - but wild caught is still a major problem.

The EPS is a classic example of this, in a round about way because smuggling and wild caught specimens were leaving Europe and arriving in the United Kingdom where no laws had been broken due to species being on British soil.

So there still too high a wild caught population of reptiles in this industry.

This is not to be read nor seen to be agreeing with Animal Aid.

There are bad keepers across all the boards and equally as much as the AR brigade notice it, so do we.

The Fashion industry has long been associated with the skin and fur trade.

We only have to recall Diane Fossey's problem with the Gorilla poachers, or more recently to the continued killing of Tigers for medicinal purposes and the list here is endless. To realise there is always a demand for the properties of animals for this or that.

I have reason to disagree with some of Warricks statements and we all know that the press love a glory story or glamour title, but this trade does exist. And l think it is easy for us to sit here behind our pc's and comment and criticise on these acts of barbarism or incorrect reporting. 

But l have personally witnessed various acts of cruelty in various parts of the world for western civilisations society.

There is truth to this document perhaps not entirely down to the likes of Mr Clifford - but there is truth.

Perhaps finding what the state of play is genuinely like may be preferred instead of simply discounting it all down to a campaign by the AR?

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Very true gentlemen, however as bad as Warrick may be. There are some truths to be had.
> 
> This is obviously from Animal Aids perspective and they use it as campaign literature: Animal Aid: THE REPTILE PET TRADE to win over the empathy vote from all those unsuspecting folks whom know no better as to the real truths behind the industry and keeping of reptiles.
> 
> ...


Rory
There may well be some truth in the article but any reality was lost as soon as Warwick began weaving his magic into it.
As for the wild caught debate is probably too large and complicated to be squeezed into a thread on something else and really deserves a thread of it’s own but I’ll try to just highlight a few of the factors to be taken into consideration.
1) Every reptile (in fact every living thing) in captivity originates from wild caught ancestors. Without wild caught we wouldn’t have a hobby. 
2) The choice of reptile species currently available (both WC and CB) only amounts to a tiny percentage of the species that exist around the world. An earlier ban on WC imports would of stopped popular animals like corn snakes and leopard geckos from arriving in this country. A ban now would stop the next popular pet from arriving in this country. We would all be sitting around waiting for other countries to captive breed their stocks of WC so we can get their CB babies. 
3) Many of the species currently available in the hobby are only present in small numbers and are already at risk of being inbred. A total ban on any further imports of fresh blood would be the kiss of death to any future breeding programs (something that should also be considered with the new EPS).
4) The reality of life in most of the third world countries means that if the WC animals can’t be sold to the pet trade they go in the cooking pot. This often means that they need to catch more to make up a meal than they would of needed to catch and sell to pay for a meal. 
5) The collection of WC reptiles and other animals is used by some conservation groups as a way of conserving wild places. The locals are taught to look after the wild places and only harvest at sustainable levels. The alternative is slash and burn agriculture and the total destruction of the wild places.
6) At a time when we are being told by the World Trade Organisation and by the various green groups, that we should be encouraging and supporting trade with the poorer countries, do we have the right to refuse wild harvest from them especially when the UK itself exports such large quantities of wild harvest in the form of fish and game? 
7) The theory behind CiTES is to control trade in endangered species in a sustainable way. A total ban on WC would be totally against the ideals of CiTES and would also be against the ideals of the World Trade Organisation.
8) A total ban on WC animals would greatly increase the black market price on desirable species and would be the greatest thing to happen to those that choose to make money in illegal ways. 

That’s just a hand full of things that need to be considered before anyone considers a total ban on WC and there’s lots more.

Gordon


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## JAM3S (Jan 17, 2007)

how do you know its crap habu? or are you just sticking your head in the sand? after all its easier that way. whatever negative comments are made about our hobby i cannot see how you can read that description and not even take it seriously! you surprise me


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

I think the point thats being made here is that there is probably some truth in this article as in so much as reptiles get killed for their skins, not something i personally agree with but i do use animal products so i guess that makes me a hypocrite but hey i dont keep cows as pets. But it needs to be pointed out that the article has input from someone who can create a load of nonsense about our hobby from nothing so human nature would suggest that this article is more of the same. i.e 1% fact 99% hype, thats just my view based on what I have read of the person involved in the article.


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## JAM3S (Jan 17, 2007)

well, each too their own


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## This is my Clone (Jul 8, 2007)

I read that Animal Aid report and agreed with the majority of it. Yes, there are many owners who neglect thier Reptiles. But there are many people who neglect thier dogs. And cats. And fish etc...

A blanket ban on Reptiles is not the answer. Education is the way forward. I think the vast majority of pet owners neglect thier animals not due to boredom, as suggest by AA, but ignorance of thier needs.

Edit: I don't mean the vast majority of pet owners neglect thier animals lol
I mean of those who do, the vast majority do it through ignorance!


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

JAM3S said:


> how do you know its crap habu? or are you just sticking your head in the sand? after all its easier that way. whatever negative comments are made about our hobby i cannot see how you can read that description and not even take it seriously! you surprise me


If you want to know how much truth is involved, take a look at who's named as doing what.
The report happily gives names of designers and says they use reptile skins. No problem there as using reptile skins isn't illegal and there is no suggestion of cruelty being involved. This part is fact and I have no trouble believing it.
Now take a look at the nasty part of the report. Who is doing the evil deeds? What's the name of the people/company that is nailing live reptiles to trees and skinning them alive?
There's no names and no suggestion of who or where they are. That's because nameless, non existant people can't drag you through the courts on a libel action. When you get into the realms of invisable people, it's time to start doubting the information that's being fed to you.

Basically AR propergander is always about the horrendous deeds of the invisable people. You never see them use names. 
Oh and their reports normally end by telling you how you can donate money to their company (they are never charities), so you can help them save the poor animals. Though they never say what they do to save the animals.

Natrix


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

HABU said:


> then it's hearsay. it doesnt exist. in order to accuse, you have to back it up with believeable evidence. he said that she said....doesn't cut it. for an example, if i said natrix landed on mars, those are just words and don't mean anything. believing hearsay is what gets innocent men locked up for 20 years. "you can't believe everything you read" is universal. you are right. it's designed to be inflammitory and to excite those who are predispositioned to just react to things instead of thoughtfully processing the evidence. i'm just glad those suckers that believe everything they read aren't judges. we'd all be screwed. one can't just take a snippet of a rumor and just run with it. like you implied, that's how legends are made. that's how urban legends begin. i'm still looking for them GATORS in the sewers of new york city. they have to be there..... i read about them in the paper!


Agreed. It wouldn't suprise me if thats how they killed animals deep in the Javan jungle. Many, many people who live in jungles and rainforests have a totally different way of life and I cant see how we can judge them by our standards. Alot of them probably find it unthinkable how we live and treat animals.


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