# Slagging off shops (reptile or pet shops)



## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

obviously this isnt a new thing, but i've read a few posts on a number of different threads where people have digs at shops (not naming or anything) just saying how the ones in their area, the people dont know what they're talking about and so on. Animals kept in a bad state.

Now if it wasnt for reptile or pet shops, the majority of reptile keepers wouldnt even have reptiles or probably wouldnt have even though about keeping reptiles. 

Most of you say the owners of the shops and such havent got a clue. Have you bothered talking to them about something you're unhappy about? I'm sure you'd get a bit more respect if you actually told them, you are after all a customer, and your views should be respected. But no, the majority of you just go about letting the problems continue in a shop (in your opinion, the problems that is) and then feel you're so high and mighty in your commenting of the shop on a forums. (indirectly).

it just gets on my nerves when people do this, if i see something wrong in any shop, not just animal shops, i will tell someone who works there. why? Because i'd like it sorted, and why else? Because they will be able to KNOW that theres something not right and hopefully fix the problem.

Also. Your opinion on how an animal is to be kept can be alot different to how another believes the animal to be kept.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I would like to add to Trice's rather sensible post... that sometimes it is easy to get over emotional at people's descriptions and 2nd hand information - sometimes, 3rd, 4th or 5th hand information. Chinese whispers and rumours abound, and a sentence can go from "some leopard geckos look skinny in joe bloggs shop", to a week later and 5 people who've never been to the shop down the line "all their geckos have crypto don't buy anything from there ever!!" - Yes, I've seen it happen.

Don't go on rumours, hearsay, gossip, or 2nd hand information. If you're going to pass on a warning to others, for god's sake make sure you have your FACTS right first. I am a bit tired of people saying "my cousins brothers uncles best friends mother said there's a 20 foot snake in a 4 foot tank down the road!! I'm phoning the RSPCA..", you know what I mean! :lol2:

Accusations, gossip and passing on incorrect information can result in a ruined reputation.

Bear in mind that some people are just malicious. It is not unknown for other businesses and online dealers to spread gossip to damage the reputation of competitors - not legal, but pretty hard to prove. Disgruntled customers, angry shop workers..... make sure your source is 100% trustworthy - if you're going to talk about a situation online or make reports to the council or RSPCA - see the evidence with your own eyes first.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

Well said trice.............I think everyone on this forum considers themselves an expert and assumes everyone else knows nothing......

Just because people keep their reps the way they do does not mean other methods are wrong

and yes the slagging off of rep shops does get up my nose too......


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## Elisha Metcalf (Sep 12, 2008)

fair enough, but i did say something to the woman in the shop and she just said i will pass it on, and another member of this forum has spoken to her in the past about the state of the reptiles and is now barred because of it, just because she told her that the animals were not being kept in the correct conditions, and on this forum arent we allowed to voice our opinions on different shops? There are some truely amazing pet shops out there, and i know all have goo dpoints and bad points but some are just down right disgusting, and need sorting out, but reporting them to various people/organisations seems to get no where, i dotn slag of the RSPCA, they also have good points and bad points, ive mainly had bad experiences with them , but thats just me, and i will be contacting them about the particular petshop i posted about.


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

Well said trice


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## mant01 (Aug 23, 2008)

I can understand the chinese whispers thing leading to things getting out of hand, but Ive spoke very nicely to a women that owned a reptile shop in newcastle and got about 20 minutes of abuse shouted at me and then told never to come back. So some shops just shouldnt be dealing at all.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

i spoke to my pet shop when i thought something was wrong and it all got sorted out


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Very well said Greg !!!!

When I go to peoples houses and see their collections I tend to look at it as a learning thing. I can almost guarantee that they will not keep their animals in exactly the same way that I keep mine or handle them in the same way that I handle mine so it's an opportunity to see what works.... not as an opportunity to slag them off.

It's no different with shops. Most shop keepers have been in this game for a hell of a lot longer than me.


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## Woodi (Oct 11, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Very well said Greg !!!!
> 
> When I go to peoples houses and see their collections I tend to look at it as a learning thing. I can almost guarantee that they will not keep their animals in exactly the same way that I keep mine or handle them in the same way that I handle mine so it's an opportunity to see what works.... not as an opportunity to slag them off.
> 
> It's no different with shops. Most shop keepers have been in this game for a hell of a lot longer than me.


 
Reason why I don't post pics that often of my viv's that often, too many people jumping on the wagon of "You should'nt have that in there, why is that like that".

If I went around to their house and told them how to raise their kids I'd be told to FO, so when I know what I'M doing of coarse in my opinion:whistling2:, tried and tested do I need some young top gun telling me what to do as it says this in the book?

Books are for reading, not to follow to the gospel, if it was so we'd all be on the F Plan Diet for the last 20 years.


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## Tina (Apr 9, 2007)

_Very_ well said Greg! What a sensible young head on such young shoulders. :notworthy:

Naming and shaming... not good imo without absolute proof to back up what is being claimed.




ratboy said:


> When I go to peoples houses and see their collections I tend to look at it as a learning thing. I can almost guarantee that they will not keep their animals in exactly the same way that I keep mine or handle them in the same way that I handle mine so it's an opportunity to see what works.... not as an opportunity to slag them off.
> 
> It's no different with shops. Most shop keepers have been in this game for a hell of a lot longer than me.


A great post too! I totally agree... we all do things slightly differently and can all learn from each other. I've had some great discussions with private keepers and shop keepers and many, many times picked up some great gems of information that I've been able to incorporate.


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## milly (Dec 25, 2007)

ratboy said:


> Very well said Greg !!!!
> 
> When I go to peoples houses and see their collections I tend to look at it as a learning thing. I can almost guarantee that they will not keep their animals in exactly the same way that I keep mine or handle them in the same way that I handle mine so it's an opportunity to see what works.... not as an opportunity to slag them off.
> 
> It's no different with shops. Most shop keepers have been in this game for a hell of a lot longer than me.


i totally agree well said


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## Horny Toad (Sep 9, 2006)

Well indeed! I opened the thread expecting the usual..........

I almost feel humbled, being one of the longest established shops around in the UK.......

There are good and bad in all walks of life. I loved Steves comments, we have all visited somebodies private collection to be met with sights that dissappoint. Private keeper / commercial shop - some are good some are not so good. The foot fall in the average shops dictates that someone will find something that dissappoints - its just the law of avarages. With differing points of view on how to keep reptiles, differing standards that we accept - the variables are tremendous. And then the old chinese whispers thing..... That adds a further dimension.

And dont get me onto the forum expert syndrome. The instant expert. The trophy hunters. You will all recognise what I am talking about if you have been around the forums more than a week.

The internet forum is a powerful tool. Very dangerous and more than a tad fickle.


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

if anyone happened to be referring to me, or the leos i'm really concerned about, i'm going down there myself to see first hand tomorrow, hopefully sneak some pictures of them were they are, speak to the woman who owns the shop and try to give her some advice, which will very likely not go well, as i've read a lot of newspaper articles on the net about an incident with a tortoise, this woman seems very arrogant, but i will see for myself tomorrow. Couldn't make it there today =[
I also hope to leave with the leos if they are that bad

Slagging off good pet shops is bad, but when they're *actually* doing something badly wrong, and they refuse to correct it to your face, claiming you don't know what your talking about, especially when it's something as obvious as baby BDs without a UV tube, that's common knowledge, read any care sheet, bearded dragons NEED UV, you don't have to think your an expert to know something like that. I've had that experience.

But then in another, obviously much better but possibly more inexperienced shop, there was an adult female beardie, in with a male beardie, looking very gravid, and digging like frantic, I advised them she needed a laying box, told them what and how, and one of the girls working there went immediately to make it up.* Not all pet shops are bad.* But from mine, and a lot of others people experiences, too many of them are, and are quite arrogant.

You do need to confront the owner/employees, in the nicest possible way, but far too often, as nice as you are, and as right as you are, not even things that are opinions sometimes, things that are fact, they will still say to your face you are wrong. They know exactly how they should be kept and any other way is wrong... even if they are dying


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## spinnerpete (Sep 4, 2007)

lucky enough for me ive never had a problem with my local rep shops only when a saw something marked up wrong but this was sorted with a polite word with the shop keeper


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## mantella (Sep 2, 2007)

Some of the most knowledgable guys i know work in shops.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Well said Trice, bravo! :2thumb:


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Ive gone to a store with dead animals and spoken to the owner who said that obviously i had no idea what i was saying as they are the longest sellers of reptiles in the area and the animals in question were not dead they were shedding.....one of them had a hole in its head the others eyes were hanging out. Some people just dont want to listen.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

OK - I went to a pet shop which had a 3.5 foot retic in a hexagonal fish tank with aspen as substate and a regular 60 watt household bulb for heat. The retic was covered in shed. When I spoke to a girl that worked there she told me that she was really worried about it because it wouldnt feed, but that the owner wasnt interested. So I spoke to owner and voiced my concerns. He was full of crap and told me that this was a dwarf that would not reach more that 4feet and that the reason it wasnt feeding was because it was nearly at adult size and that when adult they only feed once every 6 months or so. He also told me that if I wanted it I have to be quick becuase young lad was coming back with the money later that day, because he had always wanted a python that wouldnt get any bigger than 4 feet.

I told him he was wrong, but eventually bought it off him and passed it to a friend of mine who still has it and it is now approaching 10feet and eating like a - well like a retic

So not all rep shopkeepers are knowlegeable and some deserve to have it pointed out - if I went to a restaurant and the food was crap I would tell then and I would also tell my friends not to eat there - and I think that someone trying to sell a non feeding 4foot retic as fully grown to a teenager is more important than a dodgy curry


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## neil270289 (Sep 14, 2008)

bravo trice bravo :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy: spoken like a top man lol:2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb::2thumb:


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

pet shops suddent need telling that somthin is wrong with there animals they sud know, n if they dont they sud not stock that certain type of animal, at the end of the day it is there job, if a nanny was to do the same to a child she would get arrested or sumet (probably). in many jobs there is no chance for mistakes to be made or bad practice, it would be fatile if a doctor was to make a mistake. 

its not like getting someones order wrong at mcdonalds, if they get it wrong int the pet shop the animals suffer.

yes animals do sometimes get sick, but if they do they should be taken off show put somewhere quite with the correct attension they need to get well again.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Very good thread, and excellent post by the original poster. I work in the reptile trade and if it's one thing i've noticed it's speaking to many others in the trade who all agree how annoying some assumptions are that are made on reptile keepers forums about reptile shops, especially by the 'google experts' (many of these having only been into herps a handful of years or even months(!!), with maybe the experience of 10 species under their belts if they're lucky). What they forget is is that most people in senior positions in reptile shops are very very knowledgable, that's not arrogance but the truth, we simply have to generally know that bit more about herptiles than your average keeper on the street. Don't get me wrong, no one knows everything, and i'm sure most people including Kev at Coast To Coast, will tell you, everyday is a learning process, new techniques being found constantly to improve husbandry, plus just the little things you see for yourself, and pick up off other respected keepers. I love reading these forums, there's some great people on here, some great keepers aswell, but there's always the element of people who have to come on here just with the purpose of kicking up a stink, or perhaps just looking for a reaction. One of my biggest pet hates are the people that twist things you say around, and then post your 'twisted' comments on the net. For instance (fictional), they come into the store, and i explain to prospective customer that most juvenile leopard geckos tend to be rather scatty but soon settle down as they mature, generally making excellent docile 'pets' (as they'd know themselves if they did their own research ; ) )....Next thing i know, 'Alex from Southern Aquatics doesn't recommend leopard geckos as pets as they're nervous and can't be handled'. Get my drift?


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

I do agree that a lot of shop keepers are experts on reptiles, and the majority keep their reps very well, but there are far too many, despite being a minority, that don't, and people really should be aware of those shops that don't care properly for their stock.

There are many shops that I would applaud and happily buy from, ask for advice from, but there are some that I have personally experienced that really don't seem to care at all for the stock. They are clearly just in it for the money and would say almost anything, however nonfactual it may be, to secure a sale. Some claim to be experts yet fail to provide basic requirements.
That isn't to say all reptile shops are bad, but "slagging off" a genuinely bad shop is justified if you have hard facts.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Alex M said:


> Very good thread, and excellent post by the original poster. I work in the reptile trade and if it's one thing i've noticed it's speaking to many others in the trade who all agree how annoying some assumptions are that are made on reptile keepers forums about reptile shops, especially by the 'google experts' (many of these having only been into herps a handful of years or even months(!!), with maybe the experience of 10 species under their belts if they're lucky). What they forget is is that most people in senior positions in reptile shops are very very knowledgable, that's not arrogance but the truth, we simply have to generally know that bit more about herptiles than your average keeper on the street. Don't get me wrong, no one knows everything, and i'm sure most people including Kev at Coast To Coast, will tell you, everyday is a learning process, new techniques being found constantly to improve husbandry, plus just the little things you see for yourself, and pick up off other respected keepers. I love reading these forums, there's some great people on here, some great keepers aswell, but there's always the element of people who have to come on here just with the purpose of kicking up a stink, or perhaps just looking for a reaction. One of my biggest pet hates are the people that twist things you say around, and then post your 'twisted' comments on the net. For instance (fictional), they come into the store, and i explain to prospective customer that most juvenile leopard geckos tend to be rather scatty but soon settle down as they mature, generally making excellent docile 'pets' (as they'd know themselves if they did their own research ; ) )....Next thing i know, 'Alex from Southern Aquatics doesn't recommend leopard geckos as pets as they're nervous and can't be handled'. Get my drift?


 
:welcome: Alex from southern Aquatics (I really need to pop in again soon)

Trice, I wholeheartedly agree with your and many other posts, we get many one sided views on rep shops, and so many people that come away from a shop and rush here to post about something they saw/heard/ thought they saw/heard........ rather than speaking to the owners POLITLY about their concerns, ok some may tell you to Butt out but most are sensible enough to listen, lets face it the shop is their livleyhoods, and customers are crutial to that.
Bravo for a very good thread :no1::2thumb:


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Very well said Greg !!!!
> 
> When I go to peoples houses and see their collections I tend to look at it as a learning thing. I can almost guarantee that they will not keep their animals in exactly the same way that I keep mine or handle them in the same way that I handle mine so it's an opportunity to see what works.... not as an opportunity to slag them off.
> 
> It's no different with shops. Most shop keepers have been in this game for a hell of a lot longer than me.


 
Hi all,

My way of thinking too, Ratboy.

We never stop learning in this fantastic hobbie.

slither61:snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## brndn16 (Jan 11, 2008)

I have bought unhealthy animals from pet shops before but that was as much my mistake for not knowing better at the time. I have also been told some shocking fact about reptiles in order that the pet shop can make a sale. I was once told Tokay Gecko’s were live bearers and did not lay eggs (lucky I new better)? However I think this is the exception to the rule, but if someone is genuinely that concerned then it does not hurt to ask for some advise as long as there are not trying to destroy reputation. Also in my experience people don’t take criticism very well and will just ask you not to come back. 
:whistling2:


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

One thing that is coming out of this thread which I do not like is the notion that knowing about lots of species of reptile is better than knowing about a few.

I have been keeping rat snakes for 11 years and 'only' keep 7 different species. I like to think that I know quite a bit about them but am not arrogant enough to think that I know everything. I do believe however that it is better to know a lot about a few species than a little about many. I would rather have a deep knowledge of animals that I keep and leave the shallow knowledge to those that do not actually interest me.

As always.... quality beats quantity IMHO


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## brndn16 (Jan 11, 2008)

I agree Ratboy but if shops keep lots of different species then they should know the basic of these species especially if there going to sell them to the public. I agree. know one can know every think although some think they might my little dig (naughty).


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

For shops I would agree. But I don't run a shop and the notion put forward by Alex "especially by the 'google experts' (many of these having only been into herps a handful of years or even months(!!), with maybe the experience of 10 species under their belts if they're lucky)" is more than a little insulting to a lot of knowledgable people in given species.


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## kwiky (Sep 3, 2006)

i have been in a lot of reptile shops in my time and spoken to alot of staff, from Kev at coast to coast and Andrew at leaping lizards right through to small little pet shops that sell the odd leapard gecko and i have only once ever been into a bad shop, i am always perplexed by the amount of bad mouthing that goes on about reptile shops, most if not all of my reps have come from shops, i love visiting shops and speaking to the staff, 99% of all reptile shop owners and staff are just like me, reptile enthuiasts.

i have even worked in a reptile shop but i didnt instantly become some evil greedy clueless so and so just after peoples money, talk to the people behind the counter, you may even make a few friends

regards.....kwiky


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## brndn16 (Jan 11, 2008)

Could not agree more always very ware of what I read on the web cause anyone can put there opinion on it! (even me)
There do seem to be a lot of over night experts I have kept a few different specie but I like to think I no what keep quit well but some of the reason I’ve been slightly aware of posting on the forum is because of these, how did you put it 'Google experts' and there criticism of people on the thread I’ve seen.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ratboy said:


> For shops I would agree. But I don't run a shop and the notion put forward by Alex "especially by the 'google experts' (many of these having only been into herps a handful of years or even months(!!), with maybe the experience of 10 species under their belts if they're lucky)" is more than a little insulting to a lot of knowledgable people in given species.


You're missing my point totally, and don't for a minute think that i feel i know everything because that i would find very insulting myself, i most certainly don't. Nothing wrong with specialising in certain genera or even species of reptiles at all, but perhaps i meant anyone can just google ANY reptile etc and comment on ANYTHING about them freely giving advice to anyone (sometimes very bad as google is not always a friend in some cases). Some people do this i suppose for their own ego, but not sure why you took offence, it's quite clear your love is ratsnakes and therefore for instance you'd be a better person on here to give out advice about mandarin rats than indeed a 'google expert' who's kept maybe only a handful of across the board species. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who will know what i mean, and take it in the correct context.

R.e the arrogant jibes, who are you or Brandon (?) to say that any reptile shop owner etc is not knowledgeable enough to have decent knowledge on a wide spectrum of genera etc, but could only be truly knowledgeable by specialising? There's some very good people out there who really DO know their stuff on a huge variety of species.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Its a good point, but there is also the issue that alot of reptile and pet shops dont seem to have the same 'customer service' attitude as other shops, most rep and pet shops seem to think that they are all knowing and most are not willing to listen to opinions, and alot will as mentioned in a few posts above will shout at you and give you abuse for even thinking about questioning them, hence alot of people come on to forums and voice thier opnions.

On the other hand people sometimes forget that its a shop and they are out to make a profit. so things will be dont differently, its knowing the difference between someone who has the interests of the animals in mind and the people that are out for nothing more than money with absolutely no regard for the animals they sell.


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## brndn16 (Jan 11, 2008)

Well Alex M its Brendan and apologies if it sounds arrogant as I’m not a big fan of that!
I don’t think I said that they were un-knowledgeable on a wide spectrum of species. I agree there are really good reptile shop keepers who really no there stuff and about lots of species and I would be very happy to take advise from these.
My aim is not to slag off shops because I enjoyed looking around and chatting to the owner/employees.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that you get good shop with very knowledgeable people and then you get shop that are not as knowledgeable.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Alex M said:


> R.e the arrogant jibes, who are you or Brandon (?) to say that any reptile shop owner etc is not knowledgeable enough to have decent knowledge on a wide spectrum of genera etc, but could only be truly knowledgeable by specialising? There's some very good people out there who really DO know their stuff on a huge variety of species.


I don't believe I ever said that did I ? 

My point was that quality is always better than quantity. If someone has quality knowledge of every animal they sell in their shop, then I tip my hat to them... and yes I do know those that are and they are also quite happy to admit what they do not know... so there is no way I would say ( or mean ) that there are no shop owners that do not or call them arrogant. 

I took offence to what I perceived as an implication that someone who has knowledge of few species is regarded as an 'instant expert' by your words. If that is not what you meant then thank you for saying so.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ratboy said:


> I don't believe I ever said that did I ?
> 
> My point was that quality is always better than quantity. If someone has quality knowledge of every animal they sell in their shop, then I tip my hat to them... and yes I do know those that are and they are also quite happy to admit what they do not know... so there is no way I would say ( or mean ) that there are no shop owners that do not or call them arrogant.
> 
> I took offence to what I perceived as an implication that someone who has knowledge of few species is regarded as an 'instant expert' by your words. If that is not what you meant then thank you for saying so.


No problem at all, it certainly wasn't what i meant, and i fully understand why you perhaps took that the wrong way as re-reading it i could see how easily it could be miscontrued. I don't know, it just seems to me that alot of very good shops sometimes get a right battering on here at times when if only both sides of the story/ies came to light then perhaps these shops wouldn't get such bad press. However, i'm not naive enough to think that there aren't bad shops, i guess it's just hard to truly tell on a forum what really is the truth!.

All the best, and apologies
Alex


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

brndn16 said:


> Well Alex M its Brendan and apologies if it sounds arrogant as I’m not a big fan of that!
> I don’t think I said that they were un-knowledgeable on a wide spectrum of species. I agree there are really good reptile shop keepers who really no there stuff and about lots of species and I would be very happy to take advise from these.
> My aim is not to slag off shops because I enjoyed looking around and chatting to the owner/employees.
> I suppose what I’m trying to say is that you get good shop with very knowledgeable people and then you get shop that are not as knowledgeable.


Fair comment Brandon, i don't disagree with that. As you're not a million miles away from where i work feel free to pop in for a chat sometime when you're passing. 

Cheers,
Alex


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## Paul B (Apr 16, 2008)

I have my own shop and would really like constructive criticism from people who really know about reptiles. Even if it was anonymous through a forum like this as people do not like confrontation.
Unfortunately we do get people passing comment when they know little or nothing about the correct conditions a creature is comfortable in. We listen and generally say hmm we will look into it and see what we can do.

The truth of the matter is as was mentioned above. If these shops did not exist (the good ones that is) where would you go for sound advice or an emergency item you cannot get from the internet.
Unfortunately Online sales and Pets at Home are a serious threat to small pet and reptile shops and they will be a thing of the past very soon unless the public begin to support them.
I know things are cheaper on the net but please remember the overheads a shop has to pay that web outlets do not.


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