# Pet shop rant grrrr



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

So our local parrot/bird shop - who also keeps reptiles rather badly and fish - have decided the "latest" must have for the folk of Moreton is a marmoset!!

They have a 5 week old baby common marmie in a hamster cage on the counter in the shop - 5 WEEKS OLD GRRRRRR

HAd to rant to people who actually understand that " aww it's cute" isn't bloody justification for substandard housing, advice, greed and plain cruelty!:censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor:


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## beardys (Sep 28, 2009)

:gasp:report them:censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor:


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## abadi (Jul 25, 2010)

Thats horrible:censor::censor:!


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

REport report report!!!!RSPCA, trading standards, council - local newspaper???


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

Loderuna said:


> REport report report!!!!RSPCA, trading standards, council - local newspaper???


 
^ THIS ^ they need to be closed down , i think this is disgusting!!!


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## HappyCrazyBunny (Mar 15, 2010)

I can't see the poor thing surviving long if its only 5 weeks old... What age should they be weaned? 5 weeks sounds way too young.

Helen xx


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

Go to the local newspapers with this...you'll probably get more done than with the RSPCA. You want to play on the fact that so many people think its not right to keep primates in captivity at all. For once the AR loonies will be on your side. How much are they charging for it? Just curious whether they'd be charging the earth. Totally disgusting. I would have been tempted to take the cage and run.


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Thought you need licenses to have marms!


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

They are asking £1000 for the wee one! The guy in pet shop really knows his stuff about birds I will give him that but he is stepping into unknown territory with reps and exotics.

I am moving home soon and have sold the entire contents of our current house to fund the move - that nearly never happened as I was tempted to just buy him cash and bring him to live with Zooman so he would be properly cared for 

Our local paper is crap TBH as is our local RSPCA although I will call them asap to inform them and see what they say


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## SkinheadOi85 (Sep 28, 2008)

Council give pet shop licenses as you more then likely know...report animal abuse to them due to research you can see the animal is in unsuitable temp home in a shop...and even tho u agree shops keep pets in smaller then ideal housing due to over heads and normally fast turn out of pets a marm at a grand...isnt going to sell quickly!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Disgusting though this, please remember that swearing on this forum is not allowed (even with token asterix..)


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> They are asking £1000 for the wee one! The guy in pet shop really knows his stuff about birds I will give him that but he is stepping into unknown territory with reps and exotics.
> 
> I am moving home soon and have sold the entire contents of our current house to fund the move - that nearly never happened as I was tempted to just buy him cash and bring him to live with Zooman so he would be properly cared for
> 
> Our local paper is crap TBH as is our local RSPCA although I will call them asap to inform them and see what they say


Hey hun, if I lived closer, I would go in & have a word myself. I would report the shop to the council, & make sure you emphasise that being alone at 5 weeks old is extremely detrimental to primates as intelligent sentient beings. If need be, you could give the council my mobile number & tell them to call me if they want more information on marmosets. I educated my local head of environmental health fella when some toxic malicious witch reported me to them for having dangerous wild animals.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Sorry Bothrops 

Colin - chuck me your mobile over hun, today I go on a rampage to show how disgusted I am at the fact that they have him there, moreso that a "BREEDER" would allow a marm that age to go to a pet shop.

Apparently, he told someone he had 5 others waiting to come when they were well enough as they had all been rejected by the mother! Didn't think marms had sextruplets???


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with you it is indeed cruel but I find it strange you are so angry about the wee monkey when you jumped to the defence of a forum member accused of animal neglect.:roll:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

With all due respect FreddiesMum, this situation was posted regarding the psychological and emotional needs of a very young primate who is by all accounts and views TOO YOUNG to even contemplate taking from it's mother and being poked and prodded all day by children through the 6 week holidays for the financial gain of a man who knows nothing about exotic mammals.

With regards to the situation you brought up, firstly whom I choose to defend is my own business. The person in question has been a very close friend of mine for a number of years and I don't beleive that anyone has the right to kick someone when they are down. We each face things in our lives that become too much yet we are blind to see the circumstance we place ourselves in. Call it stupidity, selfishness, denial - whatever term you would like, but from time to time some people are unfortunate enough to find themselves in difficult places of which they can't see a way out despite the people surrounding them offering it freely.

This forum is so, so quick to jump on the bandwagon of witch hunting and pitchforks at dawn - perhaps that is why it sees a steady decline in reasnoable posts about animals and why there is more activity in off topic chat and 18+?? 

I would not ever jump in to kick those who are down but will always instead offer a helping hand back onto thier feet. Perhaps it is how I was brought up or it is just how I choose to base my morals in life but that is my personal choice and not something that I will be swayed from by any amount of pitchforks sorry :hug:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> With all due respect FreddiesMum, this situation was posted regarding the psychological and emotional needs of a very young primate who is by all accounts and views TOO YOUNG to even contemplate taking from it's mother and being poked and prodded all day by children through the 6 week holidays for the financial gain of a man who knows nothing about exotic mammals.
> 
> With regards to the situation you brought up, firstly whom I choose to defend is my own business. The person in question has been a very close friend of mine for a number of years and I don't beleive that anyone has the right to kick someone when they are down. We each face things in our lives that become too much yet we are blind to see the circumstance we place ourselves in. Call it stupidity, selfishness, denial - whatever term you would like, but from time to time some people are unfortunate enough to find themselves in difficult places of which they can't see a way out despite the people surrounding them offering it freely.
> 
> ...


Agree with this completely hun.

Maybe some of you should look at the skunk i got from Nerys when all this kicked off and tell me his ill.

However this isnt about that member this is to alert people of the shop.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> Sorry Bothrops
> 
> Colin - chuck me your mobile over hun, today I go on a rampage to show how disgusted I am at the fact that they have him there, moreso that a "BREEDER" would allow a marm that age to go to a pet shop.
> 
> Apparently, he told someone he had 5 others waiting to come when they were well enough as they had all been rejected by the mother! Didn't think marms had sextruplets???


I've PM'd you my number hun. : victory:


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## joey snakes 21 (Dec 13, 2008)

brittone05 said:


> So our local parrot/bird shop - who also keeps reptiles rather badly and fish - have decided the "latest" must have for the folk of Moreton is a marmoset!!
> 
> They have a 5 week old baby common marmie in a hamster cage on the counter in the shop - 5 WEEKS OLD GRRRRRR
> 
> HAd to rant to people who actually understand that " aww it's cute" isn't bloody justification for substandard housing, advice, greed and plain cruelty!:censor::censor::censor::censor::censor::censor:


:no1:: victory:


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## wigan (Nov 6, 2008)

*pet shop moreton*

firstly can i say i agree with every comment made if only the infor mation you have was correct.i know this person by visiting his shop and taking the time and effort to talk to him as brittone05 as said this guy does know his stuff about birds/parrots he as kept/bred/handreared these for nearly 30yrs.he is a member of some 12 societys of which he sits on committes.he does not profess to be a reptile specialist but as had reptiles for some 6/7 years if he does not know the answer to any question he always puts the customer intouch with someone who does.the marmosets as he agrees is totally new to him he as only had themfor some 18 months or so, his first pair recently had 2 babies of which 1 died within 12 hours of being born.he contacted a primate specialist vet for some info.they visited him and checked the surviving animal it was decided that with their help he would hand rear the surviving baby.the animal was in the size of cage that he was told to put it in because of its age,he was given a 3month in advance what you will need and have to do list,he had food brought in from america and he brought the animal into the shop so he could feed him.it was not for sale in the shop but as all his others would of been sold privately from his home address which is not illegal the RSPCA did contact a vet for advice on this person and this vet was the same vet he was using upon which they said they were happy with what they had been told, PLEASE PEOPLE DO NOT BE SO QUICK TO CALL FOR THIS PERSON TO BE EITHER SHUT DOWN/PROSECUTED OR CASTRATED UNTIL YOU ARE IN FULL BENIFIT OF ALL THE FACTS.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

It WAS for sale as several people asked and he told them - I was there when he did so!

~If he has been "keeping" marms for 18 months then he should already know that stress is not good for them and being in that shop is nothing but stressful. He should also be aware of the social infrastructure they have and that to sell singly for £1000 each in Moreton cross is morally wrong!

( and for the record, I don't live in Moreton any more so don't know the current situation )


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

At five weeks this animal is barely eating on its own...call rspca as they can report as council gives licences...better still get a shot gun and give both barrels to the shop owner....then squease him or her into a rabbit hutch...this needs stamped out...so cruel...who the hell gave it to the shop in the first place as they need shot as well....this wee thing may die if something isnt done..they will sell to someone with no knoledge whatsoever and that will damage it to no ammends...this type of behaviour makes me sick....the sooner they are all article 10 the better it gives true keepers of the species a bad name as all seem to get categorised together...do something quick mate to help it before its too late...find out where it came from and report that as well..you should take pics and post them so as to boycot the shop...wish i stayed closer as id do summit...


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> At five weeks this animal is barely eating on its own...call rspca as they can report as council gives licences...better still get a shot gun and give both barrels to the shop owner....then squease him or her into a rabbit hutch...this needs stamped out...so cruel...who the hell gave it to the shop in the first place as they need shot as well....this wee thing may die if something isnt done..they will sell to someone with no knoledge whatsoever and that will damage it to no ammends...this type of behaviour makes me sick....the sooner they are all article 10 the better it gives true keepers of the species a bad name as all seem to get categorised together...do something quick mate to help it before its too late...find out where it came from and report that as well..you should take pics and post them so as to boycot the shop...wish i stayed closer as id do summit...


someone has already posted in the shop keepers defence sayin the shop keeper actually bred the baby....

Brit, did you not challenge the shop keeper about it? 

wigan - if someone has been keepin something 18 months then theyre not "new" to them. 18 months is by far long enough to get to know the species well and learn about its needs. he may have brought it to the shop to feed it, but surely he should know a busy environment such as a shop would be stessful for any baby animal? thats just common sense, not even marmoset specific!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

If it was there to be fed why ask £1000 for it...why is it on veiw and why not in an incubator...you may have in your opinion think that 18mnts is long enough to get to know the species...they can be kept in the wrong manner with the wrong diet and not any required supliments and survive in a poor state for quite a long time.,.so sorry have to disagree with that statement..have seen one at our exotic vets that was 5yrs..had no supliments not proper diet and the animal was slowly dieing...they are not that easy to keep especialy if you dont know....he should be reported for what he is doing..


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## wigan (Nov 6, 2008)

*pet shop moreton*

plenty people do keep them singular this may not be the ideal but at least the animal gets all the love and attention,i think i did make it clear that the guy was selling them privately and only when fully weaned as i said if you had asked him personally you might of left feeling more happy than you did as for selling them in moreton what is wrong with that.: victory:


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## wigan (Nov 6, 2008)

*pet shop moreton*

as stated they were being sold privately and all potetial buyers were given a list of the animals requirements diet/housing/vitamins uv and heating food was brought in via america through a company called ravensden from what i can see he as tried his best to fulfill all requirements but you cannot please everyone:gasp:


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> If it was there to be fed why ask £1000 for it...why is it on veiw and why not in an incubator...you may have in your opinion think that 18mnts is long enough to get to know the species...they can be kept in the wrong manner with the wrong diet and not any required supliments and survive in a poor state for quite a long time.,.so sorry have to disagree with that statement..have seen one at our exotic vets that was 5yrs..had no supliments not proper diet and the animal was slowly dieing...they are not that easy to keep especialy if you dont know....he should be reported for what he is doing..


 
what i mean is 18 months is long enough to get to know the species and its requirements in detail, if you put the effort into researching it....and i wasnt the one who said it was there to be fed.........i said someone else said thats why it was there


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

wigan said:


> as stated they were being sold privately and all potetial buyers were given a list of the animals requirements diet/housing/vitamins uv and heating food was brought in via america through a company called ravensden from what i can see he as tried his best to fulfill all requirements but you cannot please everyone:gasp:


 
the thing is though, if that monkey is on display in a hamster cage, and customers see it, but dont ask about it, they may assume that its acceptable to house a monkey like that, therefore may go off, get one from someone else n house it like that. it certainly shouldnt be on full view no matter what the reason is for it bein there


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

You cannot get any idea how to keep marmies from a pamflet from a pet shop no matter what information they give you...buying food from the states why,,,might i ask..it gets distributed in the uk...and no you wouldnt get the general idea in 18mnts...15yrs ive got and still learning..with regard to them being kept singular and getting love and attention...dogs cats hamsters etc maybe but never a monkey...its totally against the grain...never keep on their own...never...we dont even do it ...give someone life in prison and they even get their own kind to keep them company...it really great how people can have an opinion...which all are entitled too.but shouting the odds about something they know nothing about is what encourages people like this to do what they do....why not source a breeder whos looking for new bloodlines or something....petshops are for pets...monkeys are not pets and never will be.this is why more and more are becoming threatened...even the common marmoset is going the same way...this country is becoming more and more like the states everyday...maybe next one will have its teath pulled and dressed in silly clothes so as to make it appealing to the public to spend their money and through ignorance kill or harm the poor animal...


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

The owner was only briefly in the shop when I was in Cat - after I had pushed through the several groups of chavs and kids who were poking the poor little thing, he had "gone out" and left his son in charge.

If this truly was a young primate in need of 24/7 care to hand rear it due to rejection/loss of a sibling or parent etc then WHY oh why would you display him/her in a shop next door to a busy pub, a shop that has a B&G macaw and a cockatoo and usually several other large parrot species making a hell of a racket, budgies/cockatiels etc chirping all day - that in itself is enough to deal with let alone all the prodding and faces squished up to his hamster cage 

I wholly agree that primates should be heavily licensed to keep the serious "KEEPER" and the hobbyist separate - I do not and never will beleive that primates can be a hobby animal 

( and am not saying reptile keepers arent serious before anyone thinks that - just that primates are specialist and deserve the licensing to protect them properly from pet shops and such like )


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Nice answer someone with a true heart for animals...well done and good on yea


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## xXFooFooLaFluffXx (Aug 4, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> You cannot get any idea how to keep marmies from a pamflet from a pet shop no matter what information they give you...buying food from the states why,,,might i ask..it gets distributed in the uk...and no you wouldnt get the general idea in 18mnts...15yrs ive got and still learning..with regard to them being kept singular and getting love and attention...dogs cats hamsters etc maybe but never a monkey...its totally against the grain...never keep on their own...never...we dont even do it ...give someone life in prison and they even get their own kind to keep them company...it really great how people can have an opinion...which all are entitled too.but shouting the odds about something they know nothing about is what encourages people like this to do what they do....why not source a breeder whos looking for new bloodlines or something....petshops are for pets...monkeys are not pets and never will be.this is why more and more are becoming threatened...even the common marmoset is going the same way...this country is becoming more and more like the states everyday...maybe next one will have its teath pulled and dressed in silly clothes so as to make it appealing to the public to spend their money and through ignorance kill or harm the poor animal...


 
so you are tellin me in 18 months you wouldnt even get to know the basics like not to be kept in singles, size of enclosure, diet, enrichment?? course you would! i can learn that in a week of good researching!!! hell i could learn most of that basic stuff in a few hours searching online! i never said you could learn ALL there is to know about marms in that time , i said in 18 months you can learn a hell of a lot! which is true! unless you are a very VERY slow learner......... n remember, this isnt in defence of the guy keepin it in a hamster cage, it is actually pointing out that either he is extremely thick and careless, or he just hasnt bothered looking into what it takes to look after a marmoset!


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## wigan (Nov 6, 2008)

*pet shop rant*

firstly the guy in question is not thick he had the animal in a cage that he was told to put it in by a RSPCA sanctioned vet who is a PRIMATE SPECIALIST secondly it was a bird cage and not a hamster cage as stated this can be proved by contacting the relevant authorities that visited him and thirdly the food was brought in by a english company who distribute in this country but buy from america called RAVENSDEN last and foremost the guy and his son both have attained qualifications in animal care the guy himself also advising and worked along side DEFRA to introduce a safe practise when bird flu first broke out but brittone 05 can i say that i am glad you no longer live in moreton because all you do is slag the place and people off by the way after his shop was RAIDED he co operated fully with all the relevant bodies and it was found that he had done nothing wrong as stated before please read carefully as i believe he is monotoring all things reported and will take the necessary action if he feels he is being victimised.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

wigan said:


> firstly the guy in question is not thick he had the animal in a cage that he was told to put it in by a RSPCA sanctioned vet who is a PRIMATE SPECIALIST secondly it was a bird cage and not a hamster cage as stated this can be proved by contacting the relevant authorities that visited him and thirdly the food was brought in by a english company who distribute in this country but buy from america called RAVENSDEN last and foremost the guy and his son both have attained qualifications in animal care the guy himself also advising and worked along side DEFRA to introduce a safe practise when bird flu first broke out but *brittone 05 can i say that i am glad you no longer live in moreton because all you do is slag the place and people off* by the way after his shop was RAIDED he co operated fully with all the relevant bodies and it was found that he had done nothing wrong as stated before please read carefully as i believe he is monotoring all things reported and will take the necessary action if he feels he is being victimised.


After living there for 8 years, I am glad too!

Did you see the marm and cage yourself then?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Nice answer someone with a true heart for animals...well done and good on yea


She's a good'un is our Brittone! : victory:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Awww fanks Col :blush:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

wigan said:


> firstly the guy in question is not thick he had the animal in a cage that he was told to put it in by a RSPCA sanctioned vet who is a PRIMATE SPECIALIST secondly it was a bird cage and not a hamster cage as stated this can be proved by contacting the relevant authorities that visited him and thirdly the food was brought in by a english company who distribute in this country but buy from america called RAVENSDEN last and foremost the guy and his son both have attained qualifications in animal care the guy himself also advising and worked along side DEFRA to introduce a safe practise when bird flu first broke out but brittone 05 can i say that i am glad you no longer live in moreton because all you do is slag the place and people off by the way after his shop was RAIDED he co operated fully with all the relevant bodies and it was found that he had done nothing wrong as stated before please read carefully as i believe he is monotoring all things reported and will take the necessary action if he feels he is being victimised.


Oh and Wigan - or should I say Brian, welcome to RFUK. I strongly suspect that Wigan is the guy who owns the pet shop going by his previous posts etc!!!!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

If this is the guy why feel the need to deffend if nothing wrong was done...i find it hard to believe that a vet would ask for a monkey to be put in a cage in a pet shop for all to see..what if a member of the public visited the shop with a common cold that gave them cold sores...then they put there fingers to the animal...herpes could be passed and is a common killer fatal to marmies..if this was a true case due to hand rearing being required and the animal needing to go to the place of work..it should have been done in a private manner and not on full view...where did the £1000 come in to the debate..why put a price on it..none of this makes any sense and the welfare of the 5week old youngster has at no point been concidered..they should never be housed in petshop on view...if you were infact working with defra (who i have dealt with for all my article 10 species) they would most sertainly condemn these actions...keep up the excuses for this as no one will condone it for whatever reasons you give...and monitor away as every person is allowed to have an opinion,,and when it comes to primates and there welfare im afraid my opinions will keep being given....contacting relevent bodies isnt needed to prove anyones innocence in this case mate..no matter what reason it should naver have happened to become a debate on any forrum


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## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> At five weeks this animal is barely eating on its own...call rspca as they can report as council gives licences...better still get a shot gun and give both barrels to the shop owner....then squease him or her into a rabbit hutch...this needs stamped out...so cruel...who the hell gave it to the shop in the first place as they need shot as well....this wee thing may die if something isnt done..they will sell to someone with no knoledge whatsoever and that will damage it to no ammends...this type of behaviour makes me sick....the sooner they are all article 10 the better it gives true keepers of the species a bad name as all seem to get categorised together...do something quick mate to help it before its too late...find out where it came from and report that as well..you should take pics and post them so as to boycot the shop...wish i stayed closer as id do summit...


Hi Peter

Hoping you could clarify a few points for me, regarding Article 10. I would appreciate your thoughts and knowledge on the matter

Is not Article 10 paper work is only needed if you are breeding / selling Cities Annex A animals ( ie used for commercial purposes ). It is not illegal to possess a Cites Annex A without paperwork.

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Taken from Cites

‘Commercial’ means the purchase, sale, offering for sale and display for commercial purposes or using for any commercial purposes, any Annex A specimen dead or alive, their hybrids and any of their parts including eggs, feathers, blood and semen. These activities include hiring or photographing such specimens and require a certificate issued by the UK or another EU member state Management Authority. These are generally known as Article 10 certificates. 
There are two types of Article 10 certificate. One type called a ‘*Transaction Specific Certificate’ (TSC)* which may only be used by the person named and from the address on it. The other type is called a *‘Specimen Specific Certificate’ (SSC),* and may be used by anybody in possession of the specimen. Each certificate will say which type it is.
Certificates are normally issued for the following three purposes :

To authorise the sale or commercial use of specimens of species listed in Annex A.
To authorise the movement of live Annex A specimens from the premises set out in the original import permit.
In the case of the re-export of Annex A to C specimens by an EU country, to confirm that these were legally imported or acquired within the EU.
You will also need one of these certificates if you are breeding from Annex A specimens to sell offspring, even if you do not plan to sell the parents.

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As far as I am aware there are no home checks for article 10 animals done by Defra or relevant authorities, unless it has recently changed.

I personally don't see how it will improve primate keeping as the cowboys and moneymakers will still abuse the system and their animals. Only the serious primate keeper who has the well being of his animals at heart will follow the correct conditions / prcedures. 
People will still keep them as pets in a parrot cage in the front room whether they have Article 10 paperwork or not. People will still sell them at an early age ithout the babies getting handling experience, as paperwork is applied for when they are born and passed along with the baby. If the buyer wants he can just transfer paperwork to his / her name when the baby is older, although as far as I can see they are not breaking any law by getting and registering the baby at an early age.

Just my thoughts !!!

Best Wishes

Neil


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Article 10...yep neil 100% correct it wouldnt totaly stamp out badly kept primates you would always get piracy as you do in all things...with article 10 animals if you are a private breeder(owning as pets) and you were not charging for entrance or veiwing to the public you dont need paperwork..if its private you dont need paperwork...however it is illegal to move,,,purchase or sell an article ten animal without the relevant paperwork..with regard to defra doing checks, they do.sometimes without a visit..but you need aproval from them when moving or recieving article 10 animals...my first pair of geoldies monkeys i applied to defra and filled out the relevant paperwork..received a visit from reprasentative to confirm where and how they were going to be kept ,,,then when defra gave the ok we could go ahead and get the animals,,,,because they are what they term as pets the article 10 stays in the name of the previous owner..(ours was a zoo) you can get a proof of ownership which if i remember is about £95 and an article 10 is £25...if i had any of the troop getting pushed out and needing to be rehoused then i would need to get an article 10 for that animal and the person recieving would need to apply to defra to receive it..if you go ahead without doing that the the animal can be confiscated and both seller and receiver charged. All mine that are article 10 have the relevant paperwork(article 10) there young because we are private do not..but they get registered and microchiped so as if they ever need moved then there is already a recorded microchip against the animal..which you need to do by law..which infact is in place to control the comercial breeders,,so as they know where they are going etc..it wouldnt stamp out these type of people but if they were made aware of any they would have the authority to confiscate the animal...article 10 is a bit complicated ..it is also good needing to microchip and record the offspring as it meens if they ever were illegally sold they could be traced back and the cullprits charged...there has just been a big massive search on lots and lots of zoos checking the microchips and art10 numbers match.allot were confiscated...sure it started in ireland with brown leamurs that had no art10 so they dug really deep..there were allot using there interpratation of the law but defra were having none of it...(my spelling is really bad lol)the bad thing is with all the government cuts its going to effect plans.so my relavance to article 10 is only the knoledge i have with my species but i dont think it differs..we have a few article 10 primates and i make sure its always tottaly done above board so as not to get into trouble or even worse loosing the animal...they are infact very helpfull providing you with all the information you kneed...although i phoned mr james personally as i gave myself a headache looking on their website...he was very helpfull although like everybody else they have strong opinions with regard to private keepers...cant blame them as there are many out there that give the good ones a bad name...doing it for finantial gain instead of the love for keeping the species...i dont sell as ive already said but do deal with zoos etc to help make up new pairs of different bloodlines to help keep the breeding programmes going..in the process of getting a pencillatta male at the momment to put with our female..we have stock to exchange that they need so it works out ok...sometimes we would put our own stock over to the zoo as an exhibit ,,,favours for favours...but then again i do know a vast amount of serious keepers who we would deel with but only for the benifit of breading and never for any personal gain....best way i can think of explaining..i was made redundant last year and at one point nearly lost the house and everything...we are sitting with about £20000 worth of primates...did we think of selling to help get out the hole(which would have been easy to do) no we struggled through and made sure they were ok...could never have any animal moving on without knowing it was going to have the best of care..would never dream of doing anything for the money.....rabbitted on a bit neil but hope my article 10 stuff helped..was at zoo today and they just got pair of saki monkeys was in feeding and was green with envy..also their cotton tops,,leamurs,commons all had babys it was really good to see...especially the tops as it was one of our offspring that was the dad...doing his job really well...speek soon mate and take it easy.....peter


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## carlycharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

> however it is illegal to move,,,purchase or sell an article ten animal without the relevant paperwork..with regard to defra doing checks, they do.sometimes without a visit..but you need aproval from them when moving or recieving article 10 animals.


Is that strictly true ? I know that in the parrot world if you have an Article 10 species with or without paperwork you are able to "gift it" to another person without the need for DEFRA being notified. As long as they are not for breeding purpose or to be sold for profit, no paperwork is needed.

This is especialy so when it comes down to rescues taking in Article 10 species.......and of course, when they get them rehomed. Obviously no money changes hands in that instance.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I heard this about rescues with the likes of parrots too Ken via BL ( unfortunately lol )


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## lotti (Aug 20, 2010)

the poor baby it should be with its mum til about a year atleast and if its been dropped by mum it should be handraised by an experienced handler they need to be kept heated preferably down your top or near you and when not there wrapped up in and confined area to keep the warmth in, it prob wont last long,poor little mite,they were on licence but like many things that shouldnt have ,they ve been taken off to be bought by people who dont care about their welfare and just see them as money makers! i feel that all animals should be licenced and that way poor innocent animals wouldnt be used and abused in such an appauling manner, i hope something can be done for him before its too late!


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## lotti (Aug 20, 2010)

just reading through the whole thread,i cant believe a vet would say it was ok to sell a primate on its own,primates should never ideally be alone its not going to get any of its emotional needs met by a person!primates are all very strongly bonding group animals and should be kept in pairs or even better in groups! pet shops really shouldnt be selling exotic animals as many of them do not have the animals best interests at heart, and i think that pet shops shouldnt just be able to sell anything in their shops they should have to be licenced up for specific species!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

carlycharlie said:


> Is that strictly true ? I know that in the parrot world if you have an Article 10 species with or without paperwork you are able to "gift it" to another person without the need for DEFRA being notified. As long as they are not for breeding purpose or to be sold for profit, no paperwork is needed.
> 
> This is especialy so when it comes down to rescues taking in Article 10 species.......and of course, when they get them rehomed. Obviously no money changes hands in that instance.


Hi Ken, this is also true for species of tortoise requiring article 10s.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

lotti said:


> just reading through the whole thread,i cant believe a vet would say it was ok to sell a primate on its own,primates should never ideally be alone its not going to get any of its emotional needs met by a person!primates are all very strongly bonding group animals and should be kept in pairs or even better in groups! pet shops really shouldnt be selling exotic animals as many of them do not have the animals best interests at heart, and i think that pet shops shouldnt just be able to sell anything in their shops they should have to be licenced up for specific species!


Pet shops do have to be licensed to sell certain types of animals. For example, on the pet shop license, it lists the types of animals that that shop can sell. If the shop wants to start selling kittens for example, they need to apply to the council to get the license changed & kittens added.


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## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Peter and Ken

*Further reading and found this little snippet*

*----------------------------------------------------------------------*

*Movement of CITES specimens within the EU* 
CITES specimens may be moved freely within the EU, although you may have to provide evidence to confirm that they were imported or obtained legally. Evidence could be: 

the holder’s copy of the import permit;
an invoice or receipt which has the number of the import permit or sale certificate on it; or
a letter from the person who originally bred the specimen, or a certificate from another EU Management Authority if the specimen was acquired for commercial purposes. The letter should be signed and dated by the breeder or importer. You must also give the person’s address, where the specimens were bred, their birth or hatch dates, and details of the parents.
*Controls on commercial use*
*You do not need any certificate issued by us **simply to possess an Annex A* *CITES specimen or to give it away*. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Lotti

Pet shops as far as I am aware can't just sell anything. They need to apply to have animals added to their licence which they would like to sell.
It appears where we are checks are made by a vet on behalf of the licencing authority to check that housing, knowledge etc is in place before getting the animal

Best Wishes

Neil


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## lotti (Aug 20, 2010)

well theres not tight enough restrictions on the selling of exotic mammals in shops,its one thing to real off speel to a vet about a species and actually know the proper husbandary on that animal and make sure the protential buyers are vetted properly,also people tend to go into shops with some money and see what they can get with it,we ve turned down many people who come into the shop and say what can i get for this much or ive got a 3 foot tank what can i put in it!people need to do their research before committing to taking on a pet of any sort, if they just want the latest fad they should get a zhu zhu pet,that way they can chuck it out once their fed up!


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## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Lotti

Don't shoot the messenger, was only telling you how it is done here.

The pet shops I frequent would not think of selling a Marmoset and many other exotics and turn people away if they think they are not suitable.

At least there are regulations on shops unlike the private breeders.

Oh and I do not condone the act of putting a five week old Marmie in a cage on a counter either

Neil


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

kodakira said:


> Hi Lotti
> 
> Don't shoot the messenger, was only telling you how it is done here.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Neil, if the marmoset was being hand-reared, it should have been out of sight in the office or in the back, not on the counter in full public view. 

And yes, at least there is a governing body for pet shops, unlike private keepers.


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## carlycharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

lotti said:


> well theres not tight enough restrictions on the selling of exotic mammals in shops,its one thing to real off speel to a vet about a species and actually know the proper husbandary on that animal and make sure the protential buyers are vetted properly,also people tend to go into shops with some money and see what they can get with it,we ve turned down many people who come into the shop and say what can i get for this much or ive got a 3 foot tank what can i put in it!people need to do their research before committing to taking on a pet of any sort, if they just want the latest fad they should get a zhu zhu pet,that way they can chuck it out once their fed up!


Do you mean the laws need making tighter or that the laws need to be policed better & dealt with accordingly...........one law that is commonly broken is the selling of unweaned animals (all animals not just exotics, although exotics being sold unweaned is probably worse as there is such limited info out there on their care) and yet it still happens both privately & in shops!!!

I digress a little..........:whistling2:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Neil you will find this is not the case...you cannot donate a species to way lay the 10..they did away with it and maybe they havent updated their site yet..there was a big article published on it...it is fact mate as i was quite heavily involved in it....interpratation is the bigggest prob with defra and citties...the animals first found in ireland with no paperwork were infact donated...they were all confiscated.....law changed to force out this so as they had more control about knowing where they were etc


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

If it wasnt true i wouldnt have taken the time to write it....dont know anything about parrots...as i said it is with what i keep i was dealing with defra for the a10


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## Dan27 (May 10, 2009)

THIS is a small report from the local news paper here - apparently it's been taken down to Monkey World :2thumb:


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## lotti (Aug 20, 2010)

To neil 
there are good and bad in everything and some shops are brilliant as are breeders unfortunatly there are many people who only think money and it very sad to think that it's the innocent animals who suffer, I think this applies to shops or breeders, and those breeders who have the animals best interest at heart would agree that there should be some licencing laws put in place to try and deter the breeding of animals purely for money,it's a subject that I feel strongly about and wasn't tryin to get at you I just get very upset about animals welfare !: victory:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Dan27 said:


> THIS is a small report from the local news paper here - apparently it's been taken down to Monkey World :2thumb:


a good result I think. A little different from the story the guy 'brian' is trying to say on here. 

I think brit05 did a great job. 

Jay


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

A different story indeed! Sorry to say this but I have seen mite ridden snakes, chams in vivs with wood bark substrate, beardies and uros kept together - all simple things that research would resolve easily. I know that Brian is a bloomin top notch parrot info source and nobody could take that from him as such but this primate issue was needless. Ho the bloomin heck do you get baby marms that young delivered "by mistake"??

Fanks Jay x


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

carlycharlie said:


> Do you mean the laws need making tighter or that the laws need to be policed better & dealt with accordingly...........one law that is commonly broken is the selling of unweaned animals (all animals not just exotics, although exotics being sold unweaned is probably worse as there is such limited info out there on their care) and yet it still happens both privately & in shops!!!
> 
> I digress a little..........:whistling2:


There is one breeder & seller that I recently had a run-in on this forum that sells unweaned animals!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I got a PM from Wigan asking if I had any hand-reared baby marmosets for sale or if I knew of where they could get one! :gasp:


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

wigan said:


> firstly the guy in question is not thick he had the animal in a cage that he was told to put it in by a RSPCA sanctioned vet who is a PRIMATE SPECIALIST secondly it was a bird cage and not a hamster cage as stated this can be proved by contacting the relevant authorities that visited him and thirdly the food was brought in by a english company who distribute in this country but buy from america called RAVENSDEN last and foremost the guy and his son both have attained qualifications in animal care the guy himself also advising and worked along side DEFRA to introduce a safe practise when bird flu first broke out but brittone 05 can i say that i am glad you no longer live in moreton because all you do is slag the place and people off by the way after his shop was RAIDED he co operated fully with all the relevant bodies and it was found that he had done nothing wrong as stated before please read carefully as i believe he is monotoring all things reported and will take the necessary action if he feels he is being victimised.


 
I think the guy in question your referring to is yourself Brian, owner of the sed pet shop.

The stories dont add up, 1st it was delivered by mistake by a supplier, well the only supplier to pet shops that sells marms deliveries by there own van and checks and double checks everything off, so a mistake of that magnitude is unlikely.
then the story changes to it was only in for feeding, if this was the case would it be right at the front on the counter with a price tag on?? or wuld sensible people put it in the back room nice and quiet???

this isnt the first time the person in question has broken the licencing agreement. this is the kind of thing that gives the rest of shops a bad name.......


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> I got a PM from Wigan asking if I had any hand-reared baby marmosets for sale or if I knew of where they could get one! :gasp:


personally id offer to deliver one and present him with a beanie baby (sure my cousins got a monkey one somewhere.....) in a fish tank. then claim it was a delivery error. and charge him £1000 for it. but thats just me :whistling2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

miss_ferret said:


> personally id offer to deliver one and present him with a beanie baby (sure my cousins got a monkey one somewhere.....) in a fish tank. then claim it was a delivery error. and charge him £1000 for it. but thats just me :whistling2:


:lol2:


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