# KC change breed standard for Bulldog



## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Just seen on the news The kennel club are changing the breed standard for Bulldogs. They are to breed now for longer legs leaner bodies and a less squashed face so they are healthier. IMO its about time


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

definately about time! Poor things got bred into an awful state because of the KC. Hopefully we see some nice healthy bulldogs in time!


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

daikenkai said:


> definately about time! Poor things got bred into an awful state because of the KC. Hopefully we see some nice healthy bulldogs in time!



Nothing to do with the KC - to do with the bulldogs breeders and owners. The KC (until now) has not written or adjusted breed standards - it is the breed clubs made up of breed enthusiasts, the same people who choose who to award prizes to at shows and which dogs to breed to which - ending in which type of dog becomes popular.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I bet the breeders wont like it


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> Nothing to do with the KC - to do with the bulldogs breeders and owners. The KC (until now) has not written or adjusted breed standards - it is the breed clubs made up of breed enthusiasts, the same people who choose who to award prizes to at shows and which dogs to breed to which - ending in which type of dog becomes popular.


 
Thankyou! You are, of course, correct. 

I have no idea why people feel the need to 'KC bash'.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Tis about time!! Now if only the other breeds would follow suit...


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

lets hope the same happens with other breeds like the pug for one.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I bet the breeders wont like it


Tuff cookies, there main priority should be the health of the breed not what they want them to look like. 



Amalthea said:


> Tis about time!! Now if only the other breeds would follow suit...





linda.t said:


> lets hope the same happens with other breeds like the pug for one.


Too true, too many breeds have been bred for looks, kind of makes you wonder when the breeder says they are "breeding to improve health" . Standards my a:censor: e:lol2:


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

Sorry people! lol. 
But if the KC has never changed its standards why were breeders allowed to make the bulldogs we see today? And can someone show me what the KC standards are? i always thought the squishy faced short fat things we see ARE to KC standard? 
And its genuine questions, not "KC bashing" before anyone thinks otherwise!


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## 11krage (Mar 9, 2008)

I hope this starts off a change for the other breed standards, personally I think a lot of the breeds looked much better when they were bred for function not fashion. Warped breeds like the show version of the german shepard make me so sad.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

daikenkai said:


> Sorry people! lol.
> But if the KC has never changed its standards why were breeders allowed to make the bulldogs we see today? And can someone show me what the KC standards are? i always thought the squishy faced short fat things we see ARE to KC standard?
> And its genuine questions, not "KC bashing" before anyone thinks otherwise!


My thoughts exactly. The early bulldogs were a much leaner
healthier looking dog so who dictated what they are at present. It said that they are also to lose the excessive dewlaps and to just have a dip in the nose. It has taken years to breed them to look like they do now so how many years will it take to change them back?


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

All of those the breeders culled because they didn't look right will be the ones they wish they still had.


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## RasperAndy (Sep 21, 2007)

when you look at the oldtyme bulldog its a lot taller and has a longer nose which makes breathing easier, 

the british bulldog is a stunning dog, but through bad breeding over the years it has turned into something else, 

these people really need to look at other pedigrees as well

pug
king charles spaniel
cavilier king charles spaniel
english bulldog
german shepard
boxers

there are plenty more


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Did anyone else see the news story about it? I only caught the end of it but when I searched The net all I can find is Emma Milne the vet saying she is trying to get the breed standard changed and that the KC say they have added that Bull Dogs are not allowed to show respiritory distress. 

Oooh its on Alan Titchmarsh show now so I will watch it


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## RasperAndy (Sep 21, 2007)

i've just caught a bit of it in the paper in reception then my boss caught me :blush:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

:lol2: Alan Titchmarsh Show only said about 2 sentences about it so thats no good:bash:


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## linda.t (Sep 28, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Did anyone else see the news story about it? I only caught the end of it but when I searched The net all I can find is Emma Milne the vet saying she is trying to get the breed standard changed and that the KC say they have added that Bull Dogs are not allowed to show respiritory disress.
> 
> Oooh its on Alan Titchmarsh show now so I will watch it


right i'll take a look


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

I wonder if it will even make any difference to the breeders. We used to show about 10yrs ago, and it was often much a case of it didn't matter a jot what the dog looked like, but how good friends the handler was with the judge.

I used to show a friends bullmastiffs, and at every show there was this one dog and he ALWAYS placed. His conformation was BAD when compared with the breed standard, for starters he had a VERY undershot jaw, his tail didn't reach his hocks, and his gait was wobbly. 


Just read the KC breed standard for Bulldogs, though I don't know what it was before!

Anyway, here is the link

Bulldog Breed Standard - The Kennel Club


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

They should feed the old tyme/victorian bulldog into the British bulldog this will improve the breed alot faster.Giving a better frame and muzzle longer legs.Then make them one improved breed.

Victorian Bulldog


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

RasperAndy said:


> when you look at the oldtyme bulldog its a lot taller and has a longer nose which makes breathing easier,
> 
> the british bulldog is a stunning dog, but through bad breeding over the years it has turned into something else,
> 
> ...


 I totally agree, its about time and i cant imagine why its taken so long, but i,m glad its happening.....


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

Oooo! i really do like the victorian Bulldog! Thats much better looking than todays british bulldog and probably a lot healthier!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

gazz said:


> They should feed the old tyme/victorian bulldog into the British bulldog this will improve the breed alot faster.Giving a better frame and muzzle longer legs.Then make them one improved breed.
> 
> Victorian Bulldog


 
That is how they should look IMO


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Just watched it on the news and I was right.They say other breeds are to follow but never said which ones:no1:


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

There is a full list of the proposed revisions to breed standards on the Kennel Club website

Review of Breed Standards - The Kennel Club

The revisions are being referred to as 'interim', they could still be adjusted.

I have been appointed Health Coordinator for my local Bull Terrier Breed Club and we have objected to the deletion of the word 'triangular' since it has no connection with any health issues.
We are pleased that the word remains as part of what makes a Bull Terrier a Bull Terrier is its expression!

All breed clubs will have a health coordinator as part of the new Kennel Club initiatives.

I hope that we can make healthier dogs and have no objection to standards being revised as long as its not just a knee-jerk reaction where the revision actually serves no purpose other than to appease the general public.


Lorraine


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

gazz said:


> They should feed the old tyme/victorian bulldog into the British bulldog this will improve the breed alot faster.Giving a better frame and muzzle longer legs.Then make them one improved breed.
> 
> Victorian Bulldog


So will they not end up looking like the american bulldogs as they are much taller,leaner and do not have as much of a pushed in muzzle?

John.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Mephitis said:


> So will they not end up looking like the american bulldogs as they are much taller,leaner and do not have as much of a pushed in muzzle?
> 
> John.


No they will still be lower than the American bulldog just taller than the british bulldogs are now.Plus the british bulldogs will have the dumped tail and American bulldogs have regular long tails.

Victorian bulldog.









presant British bulldog.









American bulldog.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

eightsnake said:


> There is a full list of the proposed revisions to breed standards on the Kennel Club website
> 
> Review of Breed Standards - The Kennel Club
> 
> ...


 
Ithink that's the point really. The general public watched a certain BBC programme and now assume all pedigree dogs ar unhealthy, when in fact they aren't, and a lot of people have real misconceptions about a lot of breeds without really knowing much about them. 

For example, the Pug. Thought to be unhealthy, but the majoirty aren't. I know a few people with Pugs, and they can all keep up with my Goldens out on walks.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

midori said:


> Ithink that's the point really. The general public watched a certain BBC programme and now assume all pedigree dogs ar unhealthy, when in fact they aren't, and a lot of people have real misconceptions about a lot of breeds without really knowing much about them.
> .


Exactly and the puppy farmers and idiots are having a field day selling mixed breeds (just as likely to have any defects carried by either parent breed) as healthier and just not bothering to register puppies claiming that makes them better, and Joe Public who can't be bothered to research falls for it ...


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

JulieNoob said:


> Exactly and the puppy farmers and idiots are having a field day selling mixed breeds (just as likely to have any defects carried by either parent breed) as healthier and just not bothering to register puppies claiming that makes them better, and Joe Public who can't be bothered to research falls for it ...


 
I think even some people wo should know better fall for it, to be honest. 'We' (myself and my hubby) showad occasionally breed Goldens. However, it is mainly my hobby, and he joins in. We sat and watched 'that' progrmme together, and whilst I was getting furious at the inaccuracies and outright lies, he was falling for it all. In the end I got cross with him. 

You're right abotu one thing though, puppy farmers and back yeardbreeders are havin a field day. I have seen adverts citing 'we do nto show or KC register our dogs'. I never get why people think there is a valid reaon NOT to register a purebed, pedigree puppy.


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

But im not saying all purebreeds are ill. Just that this one is, along with a few others. 
Neither is it EVERY KC registered breeder who is bad, just certain ones who should be told where to go by the KC. 
we have always had purebreed dogs from good breeders. But thats the thing, gotta make sure its a good breeder! 
This breed had health problems long before that certain BBC programme. So its not really the programmes fault is it?


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

daikenkai said:


> we have always had purebreed dogs from good breeders. But thats the thing, gotta make sure its a good breeder!
> This breed had health problems long before that certain BBC programme. So its not really the programmes fault is it?



But the programme implied that the show breeders were the worst breeders wheras in fact people who show or work their dogs are the ones most likely to health test and only breed from quality dogs.


Good news for bulldogs whatever though


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

JulieNoob said:


> But the programme implied that the show breeders were the worst breeders wheras in fact people who show or work their dogs are the ones most likely to health test and only breed from quality dogs.


I dont think it implied that at all. The programme showed the truth behind alot of breeders and what the breeders care most about. How the dogs were bred to look a certain way and how it was affecting the dog. Not that the show breeders were the worst. I have never really looked into, or talked to, "pet" dog breeders, only working dogs but all the breeders I have talked to who worked the dogs have told me not to worry about looks, but to worry about how good the dogs were at HPR, obedience, loyalty etc. Where as at a show its the looks that matter (I know that was worded wrong and will be taken the wrong way).


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> I dont think it implied that at all. The programme showed the truth behind alot of breeders and what the breeders care most about. How the dogs were bred to look a certain way and how it was affecting the dog. Not that the show breeders were the worst. I have never really looked into, or talked to, "pet" dog breeders, only working dogs but all the breeders I have talked to who worked the dogs have told me not to worry about looks, but to worry about how good the dogs were at HPR, obedience, loyalty etc. Where as at a show its the looks that matter (I know that was worded wrong and will be taken the wrong way).


I know a lot of breeders who work AND show their dogs, as Goldens are and should be able to do the job they are bred for. ( We have worked the oldest of ours in the past, but not at the moment) I also know a few that compete at obedience, as well as showing. It's simply no good to say that it doesn't matter what the dog looks like, as it does Golden Retrievers re meant to look like Golden, Labradors are meant to look like labs, and Springers are meant to look like Springers at the end of the day. Saying it doesn't matter what they look like is like a show breeder saying it doesn't matter if they can work. 

The programme showed the truth about very little. It showed a very small minority of breeders who had very old fashioned views, and a put an angle on everything to make it sound worse than it was. For example, very, very, very few Ridgeback breeders would dream of culling an healthy puppy, Dermoid sinus exists is ridgless dogs, and in fact other dog breeds aswell. The cav which had been scaned with SM was in fact a carrier, to affected. A carrier can be mated to any clear bitch and will never produce an affected (sick) puppy. Yet they failed to mention that.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

daikenkai said:


> But im not saying all purebreeds are ill. Just that this one is, along with a few others.
> Neither is it EVERY KC registered breeder who is bad, just certain ones who should be told where to go by the KC.
> we have always had purebreed dogs from good breeders. But thats the thing, gotta make sure its a good breeder!
> This breed had health problems long before that certain BBC programme. So its not really the programmes fault is it?


I don't think anyone is saying you do think that, but a lot of people do form opinions based on what that programe said, along with common misconceptions. 

I think to say Bulldogs as a breed are ill, is wrong though. I don't disagree that some changes maybe should have been made,but all the bulldogs I have met have been healthy. 

Not all KC breeders are good, of course they aren't, since puppy farmers and BYB's also KC register. However, very, very few people who breed and don't KC register are reputble or responsible, and I have yet to find one.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

midori said:


> I know a lot of breeders who work AND show their dogs, as Goldens are and should be able to do the job they are bred for. ( We have worked the oldest of ours in the past, but not at the moment) I also know a few that compete at obedience, as well as showing. It's simply no good to say that it doesn't matter what the dog looks like, as it does Golden Retrievers re meant to look like Golden, Labradors are meant to look like labs, and Springers are meant to look like Springers at the end of the day. Saying it doesn't matter what they look like is like a show breeder saying it doesn't matter if they can work.


Their point about it no mattering what they looked like was just off thing such as "off" markings, tails docked too short etc and, aside from colouring, some working vizsla's bred looked more like russet gold pointers but they were some of the best dogs out in the field I had ever seen.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

I also don't get why Black/tan or Black/tan & white and Liver or Liver & white staffordshire bullterriers are highly undesirable and not shown in the snow ring personally i like both colors.And for a dog that was bred for fighting i don't get how coat color comes into it.As the are just as heathly as any other staffie.IMO it such a stupid thing to frown up on some good staffies going to wast just coz of coat colour.

UK Staffie Black & tan.









UK Staffie Liver & white.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

At the vets I use they have a few Bulldog breeders clients. Its very common to see litters of puppies going in for Entropian ops. Not saying this is the case with all pups but it seems to me to an awful lot of them do


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> At the vets I use they have a few Bulldog breeders clients. Its very common to see litters of puppies going in for Entropian ops. Not saying this is the case with all pups but it seems to me to an awful lot of them do


I've not owned a Brit bulldog but also from what i've head the modern Brit bulldog muzzle is squashed that much that they have a hard time breathing/panting in laber.And the Brit bulldogs head as pup's are that big that the brit bulldog females have a hard time passing them through.So a high percent of caesarean in Brit bulldogs now that can't be right for the breed either.Surely natrual birth sould alway out number caesarean.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

What one person considers a healthy animal and another doesn't is debatable in itself. If a dog isn't physicaly capeable of running tirelessly for miles, if it can't breath without snorting and wheezing, even if it has too much coat, I would consider it to be at the very least mildly handicapped. On a personal level I don't like exaggeration in any dog. I like dogs with a fairly natural appearance. You could even say an OESD, even though it may be a functional dog, is disabled since it has had all its canine communication tools bred out.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

gazz said:


> UK Staffie Black & tan.


:mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble: It looks like a minnie rottie lol. IMO the black/tan dogs are _much_ better looking then alot of the dogs in the show ring. :whistling2:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble: It looks like a minnie rottie lol. IMO the black/tan dogs are _much_ better looking then alot of the dogs in the show ring. :whistling2:


 And probably less predisposed to skin sensitivity like white dogs can be.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> :mf_dribble::mf_dribble::mf_dribble: It looks like a minnie rottie lol. IMO the black/tan dogs are _much_ better looking then alot of the dogs in the show ring. :whistling2:


That what i mean who said no to black/tan and liver in the show ring for a dog whos ancestory is fighting.I doutb very much a stafford bullterrier wasn't fort coz they was black/tan or liver so what's that all about.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

my emily`s a pure bred english bulldog, from Aldridge breeding,
she has no trouble breathing, running around, jumping off the back of sofas, etc, she has nice long legs and her shape isnt exagerated in any way
she coming up eight years old and i`m happy to say, is the healthiest dog i`ve ever owned, 
and if anything should happen to her, i`ll be having another one.

<-baby emily

i get stopped all the time when i`m walking her, and people ask `how big my puppys going to get`, or that my `staffy is a funny shape`

there are plenty of dog breeders out there who genuinely love the breed and a lot have their dogs health screened now before they are used for breeding, i`ll be buying my next pup from one who does.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Just seen on the news The kennel club are changing the breed standard for Bulldogs. They are to breed now for longer legs leaner bodies and a less squashed face so they are healthier. IMO its about time


 I agree about time. They are trying to counteract all the negative publicity recently about the state of some of the breeds health. Long overdue if you ask me and not the only breed which needs looking at.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

sorry if its already been said, but in the independent it said that they are changing the breed standard on over 200 breeds.


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## mrsfluff (Jul 15, 2007)

gazz said:


> I also don't get why Black/tan or Black/tan & white and Liver or Liver & white staffordshire bullterriers are highly undesirable and not shown in the snow ring personally i like both colors.And for a dog that was bred for fighting i don't get how coat color comes into it.As the are just as heathly as any other staffie.IMO it such a stupid thing to frown up on some good staffies going to wast just coz of coat colour.
> 
> UK Staffie Black & tan.
> 
> ...


Wow, that black and tan staffie is stunning, I've never seen one before :flrt:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

gazz said:


> No they will still be lower than the American bulldog just taller than the british bulldogs are now.Plus the british bulldogs will have the dumped tail and American bulldogs have regular long tails.
> 
> Victorian bulldog.
> 
> ...


 Would people please stop referring to them as 'British bulldogs'. They are simply Bulldogs.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

gazz said:


> That what i mean who said no to black/tan and liver in the show ring for a dog whos ancestory is fighting.I doutb very much a stafford bullterrier wasn't fort coz they was black/tan or liver so what's that all about.


 Staffordshire bull terriers were terriers which originated in Staffordshire and which were bred for bull baiting, not dog fighting. The clue is in the name.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Would people please stop referring to them as 'British bulldogs'. They are simply Bulldogs.


Do you know how meny strain of bulldogs threre are in the world there is't just one so no just bulldog is't enough.What wrong wirth British bulldog they are British made.When us brits cross the old style bullbailing type bulldog that looks very like the American bulldog.With the pug resulting in in the dumpy looking British bulldog we have today.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> staffordshire bull terriers were terriers which originated in staffordshire and which were bred for bull baiting, not dog fighting. The clue is in the name.


They are called staffordshire bull terrier coz there the result of crossing the bulldog with the terrerier = bull & terrier-aka-bull terrier ones that came from Staffordshire.Staffordshire bull terrier.They may have been used for the odd illegal baiting but they was created for dog to dog fighting.Bred for there spirit and gameness of the terrier.And the strength of the bulldog.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

gazz said:


> Do you know how meny strain of bulldogs threre are in the world there is't just one so no just bulldog is't enough.What wrong wirth British bulldog they are British made.When us brits cross the old style bullbailing type bulldog that looks very like the American bulldog.With the pug resulting in in the dumpy looking British bulldog we have today.


The American bulldog is the American bulldog, the French bulldog is just that. However, there is no prefix required for the bulldog and the kennel club classification states simply, Bulldog.
It doesn't matter how many other types of bulldog there are, there is still only one 'bulldog' and if someone tells me they have one, I don't wonder wht type or ask if they mean they have a french bulldog as I know exactly what breed they have. Only people who know nothing about the breed and rank amateurs still call them British bulldog.
Anyone who knows anything about dogs would feel silly calling them 'British' bulldogs, just as I wouldn't refer to 'French' poodles, or Alsatians.I prefer to use the correct name in order not to look like a chav or numpty who wants to seems like I know about dogs when I don't.
The same applies to the bull terrier. There is no 'English' in front of the name.
Have a look at the kennel club website if you disbelieve me. You'll find that the bulldog is simply the bulldog. Or speak to people who breed and show. The prefix 'British' drives them crazy too.
There is only one bulldog, the rest are poor imitations.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

gazz said:


> They are called staffordshire bull terrier coz there the result of crossing the bulldog with the terrerier = bull & terrier-aka-bull terrier ones that came from Staffordshire.Staffordshire bull terrier.They may have been used for the odd illegal baiting but they was created for dog to dog fighting.Bred for there spirit and gameness of the terrier.And the strength of the bulldog.


 Typing it in bigger font won't make your statement true. The staffie originated as I said. My grandmother used to show and breed them as my family originated in Staffordshire.
You think staffies origins were in dog fighting, you call bulldogs 'British bulldogs'. Says it all really.
Read this:
*ORIGIN *
The *Staffordshire* *Bull* *Terrier* was developed in the region of *Staffordshire*, England in the nineteenth century from crosses between Bulldogs and various Terriers. The *Staffordshire* *Bull* was developed for the then-popular sport of *bull* baiting.
Taken from :
Scottish Staffordshire Bull Terrier Rescue

The terrier was added when the breed was being developed, in order to make a good ratting dog around the farm buildings.
The breed only started being used for dog fighting when bull baiting was outlawed.

and just to help you here is alink to the bulldog page of the kennel club. Have a look to see if it's called 'British' bulldog anywhere on there.
Bulldog Breed Standard - The Kennel Club


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Typing it in bigger font won't make your statement true. The staffie originated as I said. My grandmother used to show and breed them as my family originated in Staffordshire.
> You think staffies origins were in dog fighting, you call bulldogs 'British bulldogs'. Says it all really.
> Read this:
> *ORIGIN *
> ...


thats what I have just read in a book about the breed I am reading, it says that they have the wrong head shape for dog to dog fighting, and were never bred specifically for that purpose.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> The American bulldog is the American bulldog, the French bulldog is just that. However, there is no prefix required for the bulldog and the kennel club classification states simply, Bulldog.
> It doesn't matter how many other types of bulldog there are, there is still only one 'bulldog' and if someone tells me they have one, I don't wonder wht type or ask if they mean they have a french bulldog as I know exactly what breed they have. Only people who know nothing about the breed and rank amateurs still call them British bulldog.
> Anyone who knows anything about dogs would feel silly calling them 'British' bulldogs, just as I wouldn't refer to 'French' poodles, or Alsatians.I prefer to use the correct name in order not to look like a chav or numpty who wants to seems like I know about dogs when I don't.
> The same applies to the bull terrier. There is no 'English' in front of the name.
> ...


There's more than one strain these days.And if someone said they had a bulldog i'd ask for comfermance of the type.Not ever one always state the full name meny may say just bulldog and it may not even be the 'British' show strain.If you can live through life with just bulldog then bully for you but it hardly warrents a post in correction.But how ever you get your jollys :whistling2:.There british made so it hardly herts.Same as bull terriers there English made so saying English bull terrier there English made so how is it wrong.But if that what get you off carry on.

Bulldog breeds. The different types of bulldogs.
14 Bulldog types recongnized by clubs.


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> The American bulldog is the American bulldog, the French bulldog is just that. However, there is no prefix required for the bulldog and the kennel club classification states simply, Bulldog.
> It doesn't matter how many other types of bulldog there are, there is still only one 'bulldog' and if someone tells me they have one, I don't wonder wht type or ask if they mean they have a french bulldog as I know exactly what breed they have. Only people who know nothing about the breed and rank amateurs still call them British bulldog.
> Anyone who knows anything about dogs would feel silly calling them 'British' bulldogs, just as I wouldn't refer to 'French' poodles, or Alsatians.I prefer to use the correct name in order not to look like a chav or numpty who wants to seems like I know about dogs when I don't.
> The same applies to the bull terrier. There is no 'English' in front of the name.
> ...


 
Thank God for that!
I cant say how many times I bang my head against brick walls when I hear people, including them that actually own one, calling Bull Terriers, English Bull Terriers or even worse, Englishes. :bash:

Please stop putting prefixes onto pedigree names that simply do not exist.
A Bull Terrier is a Bull Terrier, A Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and a Bulldog is, yes you've guessed it, a Bulldog....
As far as I am aware the American Bulldog has yet to gain recognition in this country along with the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

And the Bull-and-terrier was originally bred to bait bulls and bears and other animals, it was only when these were outlawed in 1835 that people started to fight dog against dog. 
Both the Bull Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier rose out of these origins.

The first Bull Terrier club was formed in 1887.
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier gained Kennel Club recognition 25th May 1935

Lorraine


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

gazz said:


> There's more than one strain these days.And if someone said they had a bulldog i'd ask for comfermance of the type.Not ever one always state the full name meny may say just bulldog and it may not even be the 'British' show strain.If you can live through life with just bulldog then bully for you but it hardly warrents a post in correction.But how ever you get your jollys :whistling2:.There british made so it hardly herts.Same as bull terriers there English made so saying English bull terrier there English made so how is it wrong.But if that what get you off carry on.
> 
> Bulldog breeds. The different types of bulldogs.
> 14 Bulldog types recongnized by clubs.


Think you may find that is an American site and so the 14 Bulldog types it recognises are only relevant to the USA.

In this country we only recognise the Bulldog and French Bulldog.

Lorraine


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Typing it in bigger font won't make your statement true. The staffie originated as I said. My grandmother used to show and breed them as my family originated in Staffordshire.
> You think staffies origins were in dog fighting, you call bulldogs 'British bulldogs'. Says it all really.
> Read this:
> *ORIGIN *
> ...


Staffordshire Bull Terriers
American Kennel Club - Staffordshire Bull Terrier History
Bull Terrier's History
Bull terrier breed description and history
History of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier

Staffordshire bull terrier was deveoped by the Staffordshire mining community.The 'English' bull terrier was adopted by a high class community and found it's was in the show ring sooner.The mining community getting hold of bulls and bears ??.Fighting dogs was there pass time with the Staffordshire bull terriers they developed.


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

And the bull baiting in bull terriers must have stayed with them down the years through their genes, cos my BT "Bash" ran after a bull and savaged it's throat whilst i was out walking him many years ago. I had to smuggle him out of the farmers field before he got shot, which the farmer would of been well within his rights to do. My bad  The farmer did have to shoot the bull to put it outs its misery. 

God i feel awful now.


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

Ragmoth said:


> And the bull baiting in bull terriers must have stayed with them down the years through their genes, cos my BT "Bash" ran after a bull and savaged it's throat whilst i was out walking him many years ago. I had to smuggle him out of the farmers field before he got shot, which the farmer would of been well within his rights to do. My bad  The farmer did have to shoot the bull to put it outs its misery.
> 
> God i feel awful now.


Oh no, that must have been horrible!
I do know what you mean though, my old boy Dylan took too much of an interest in a bull in a field in the Lake District while we were on holiday there.
Good job he listens to me as he was about to crawl under the gate and have a go!:blush:
It was a very large white bull too and not looking very impressed....

However he is great with just about everything else you can think of including all the kittens I have ever had and my APH Nora who can quite happily run around the floor with him and my Bull Terrier bitch, Poppy in the room.
I am still working on that one with my 6 month old pup!

Lorraine


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

gazz said:


> Staffordshire Bull Terriers
> American Kennel Club - Staffordshire Bull Terrier History
> Bull Terrier's History
> Bull terrier breed description and history
> ...


 All of those links are either American or foreign. You need to be looking at British links becuase they will be more accurate. If you choose to not only believe something which isn't correct, but to make statements to that effect, the only thing which happens is that you look foolish because you are perpetuating myths.
You have a fixed idea in your head and simply refuse to acknowledge that you may have been misinformed and might have it wrong.
I find that very sad indeed.
Staffordshire bull terriers as a breed existed before the industrial revolution, when Staffordshire was relatively rural.Before the industrial revolution there was no great mining industry in the area either.
Quite simply, you are wrong, but refuse to admit that you might be.
May I ask what your background in the breed is and what you think qualifies you to make the statements that you have regarding the breed?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Ragmoth said:


> And the bull baiting in bull terriers must have stayed with them down the years through their genes, cos my BT "Bash" ran after a bull and savaged it's throat whilst i was out walking him many years ago. I had to smuggle him out of the farmers field before he got shot, which the farmer would of been well within his rights to do. My bad  The farmer did have to shoot the bull to put it outs its misery.
> 
> God i feel awful now.


 Did you contact the farmer to offer compensation? That bull would have been worth thousands to him. That aside, the poor animal must have suffered terribly and all because you didn't have your dog on a lead where there was livestock. As a smallholder I get really really angry when dog walkers don't keep their pets on a lead around livestock.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

fenwoman said:


> Staffordshire bull terriers were terriers which originated in Staffordshire and which were bred for bull baiting, not dog fighting. The clue is in the name.


According to the books I have read the Staffordshire was bred for fighting other dogs. The dogs that baited bulls were called Bull&Terriers. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier came about after the ban on bull baiting in the 1800s and was first recognised in 1935. It does have its origins in the bull baiting world but the SBT was bred for fighting. 


Celebrating Staffordshire Bull Terriers by Steve Stone


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

eightsnake said:


> Think you may find that is an American site and so the 14 Bulldog types it recognises are only relevant to the USA.
> 
> In this country we only recognise the Bulldog and French Bulldog.
> 
> Lorraine


In the uk there are clubs for.

Victorian bulldog.
Bulldogs
old tyme bulldog.
Molosser of the Month April 2003
Moorland Olde Tyme Bulldogs |
Somerset Old Tyme Bulldogs Breeder South Wales

Also in the uk.
'British'bulldog
French bulldogs.
American bulldog.
American (Johnson) bulldog.

There to meny strians of bulldog in the uk.Recongnize or not by the KC.There's clubs of people that recongnize and these people are the people that get the KC to recongnize them.So to just refer to 'British' bulldog as just bulldog these's days can get very confusing.Move with the times people or become exstinct.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> All of those links are either American or foreign. You need to be looking at British links becuase they will be more accurate. If you choose to not only believe something which isn't correct, but to make statements to that effect, the only thing which happens is that you look foolish because you are perpetuating myths.
> You have a fixed idea in your head and simply refuse to acknowledge that you may have been misinformed and might have it wrong.
> I find that very sad indeed.
> Staffordshire bull terriers as a breed existed before the industrial revolution, when Staffordshire was relatively rural.Before the industrial revolution there was no great mining industry in the area either.
> ...


I seggest you get down off your high horse.And get on a pony as it won't hurt as much when you full off.

The *BULL* in bull terrier is there coz they was created by crossing the bulldog with the terrier = bull & terrier/bull terrier.NOT coz they was use in bull baiting.Bigger heaver bulldogs & mastiff's types was use in baiting.Then it became illegal and then dog to dog combat took over but the bigger bulldog types was not agile enough so they started crossing then with terrier breeds.Staffie's was created in staffordshire by the miners no baiting involed in staffies.It's that esay case closed .


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## eightsnake (Jul 20, 2007)

gazz said:


> In the uk there are clubs for.
> 
> Victorian bulldog.
> Bulldogs
> ...


 
I think you misunderstand that this thread was originally only talking about UK Kennel Club registered types of pedigree dog. All the types of Bulldog you are referring to are not officially recognised as breeds, whether there are examples of these in the UK or not.
The 'clubs' you refer to in your post are actually websites of people who breed these types of dog not Kennel Club recognised breed clubs.

The breeds may or may not be recognised in the future, I don't know but for now the only recognised breeds are the Bulldog and French Bulldog.

When and if the KC decide to change the name of the Bulldog I will then refer to it as whatever they change it to but for now it is, and I will remain calling it, a Bulldog. People who know will not be confused.

Just as I call Bull Terriers, Bull Terriers with no English on the front as this is their pedigree name and as long a sit remains so I will continue.

Respectfully

Lorraine


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## sl85 (Jan 18, 2009)

I understand that everyone is entitled to there point of view, however what really annoys me is that people badmouthing the bulldog etc are generally people that have never owned one and are just playing Chinese whispers so to speak about the quality of life a bulldog has, as unless you have experience of owning a bulldog all your doing is listening to hear say, I have bulldogs and my dogs are very healthy & do go for long walks if they are off lead the run in front of you they can jump about and play, jump up on sofa's, bed's etc, however we did research before getting our dogs and have went for lines that are in no way over done or exaggerated. Also a lot of the dogs from the lines we have do SELF WHELP I'm not saying there won't be some that need caesarians but that can happen with any breed.

I do however recognise that there are some bulldogs that have allot of problems but this is a result of puppy farmers and people that are trying to exaggerate certain characteristics.This is not ALL show breeders just so you know our dogs are from some of the top winning dogs in the world but as a majority of show breeders do yes they are breeding towards a 'certain look' but that is why breed standard is there but there is also a huge emphasis on health it is just unfortunate that a breed gets tarnished with the same brush as the badly bred ones. And this crap from vets comes as a result of they only really see the unhealthy ones that is why they are at the vets in the first place!!!

On another note I would also like to refer to the comments made of how the bulldog 'used to look' these old paintings yes were of bulldog but not necessarily of the bulldog today as bulldog was a name that was used to a group of dogs used for the purpose of bull baiting not a specific breed as such.

So in short not ALL bulldogs are unhealthy nor are ALL breeders only concerned with looks and not health.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

we have one lives next door to us. he has problems as now the folk cant even get a leash on him as he goes bananas. so now he has to be walked without a lead, unless i go and put it on. he has no manners. he cant breathe in the heat of the summer while lying out his garden in the shade, he can hardly breathe at anytime while walking. i literally sit there in the summer listening for his next breath, if i dont hear one i have to dive to the fence and shout his name. he has terrible skin sores between his folds, and cysts between every toe almost. 
our bulldog is the american model!!! she is taller, slimmer, her nose is not really flat. she can breathe, she can walk, run, whatever. she has clean feet and her skin does not get sore. she basically has no folds on her face or round her nose. i know which one i would rather have. 
what makes it sadder is, they owned our abd at first. but because she was 'bullying' the two boys, they sold her to us, then bought the bb!!! who now has more physical and mental problems than the first one would ever have had!! oh well, thier loss our gain.

oh and they didnt get the bb from a puppy farmer!!! he was a year old when they bought him and has a pedigree longer than your arm. so i take it he comes from good breeding. the amount of people they have had wanting him for stud is not real. his breathing really would worry me if he were mine.


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## dragons jen (Aug 31, 2008)

Staffordshire Bull Terriers U.K. Breed Council of G.B.and N.Ireland

Have a look here, might put an end to the argument!


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## sl85 (Jan 18, 2009)

Lynne said:


> we have one lives next door to us. he has problems as now the folk cant even get a leash on him as he goes bananas. so now he has to be walked without a lead, unless i go and put it on. he has no manners. he cant breathe in the heat of the summer while lying out his garden in the shade, he can hardly breathe at anytime while walking. i literally sit there in the summer listening for his next breath, if i dont hear one i have to dive to the fence and shout his name. he has terrible skin sores between his folds, and cysts between every toe almost.
> our bulldog is the american model!!! she is taller, slimmer, her nose is not really flat. she can breathe, she can walk, run, whatever. she has clean feet and her skin does not get sore. she basically has no folds on her face or round her nose. i know which one i would rather have.
> what makes it sadder is, they owned our abd at first. but because she was 'bullying' the two boys, they sold her to us, then bought the bb!!! who now has more physical and mental problems than the first one would ever have had!! oh well, thier loss our gain.
> 
> oh and they didnt get the bb from a puppy farmer!!! he was a year old when they bought him and has a pedigree longer than your arm. so i take it he comes from good breeding. the amount of people they have had wanting him for stud is not real. his breathing really would worry me if he were mine.


When I refereed to bad breeding I included puppy farmers I never said ONLY puppy farmers, as I said a majority of show breeders health is the priority but unfortunately not all, you do get show breeders that exaggerate characteristics hence these health issues are the result. Also length of pedigree is nothing to do with quality of breeding, all dogs kc reg pedigree are 5 gen although can be traced further this is standard length supplied by kc, puppy farmers also kc reg there puppies and 5 gen pedigree supplied. The sores under the skin folds are maybe worse threw exaggeration however if proper care was given to this dog they shouldn't be there not saying this is out of neglect maybe more lack of knowledge on the owners part as the skin fold are meant to be cleaned daily an sudocrem applied but you neighbour should have been informed of this, as for dogs manners that can't be solely blamed on breeding as allot has to do with how the dog is reared (not blaming your neighbours I understand they got this dog at year) Back to the point the situation of your neighbours bulldog is indeed unfortunate however you cannot judge the whole breed by this as I said in my earlier post there are problems with some bulldogs which needs to be addressed but not with the whole breed.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

dragons jen said:


> Staffordshire Bull Terriers U.K. Breed Council of G.B.and N.Ireland
> 
> Have a look here, might put an end to the argument!


so since the staffordshire bull terrior was bred and named that as a specific breed it hasnt ever been used for fighting, it says there that the ancestory were fighting dogs, but from what I can make out that was before the stafford was a proper breed?


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

SiUK said:


> so since the staffordshire bull terrior was bred and named that as a specific breed it hasnt ever been used for fighting, it says there that the ancestory were fighting dogs, but from what I can make out that was before the stafford was a proper breed?


The breed was recognised in 1935. It was bred for fighting before that though, just wasn't shown as a breed until then.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Andy said:


> The breed was recognised in 1935. It was bred for fighting before that though, just wasn't shown as a breed until then.


but its not very clear, because I have seen drawings of the first bulldog and terrior crosses that were used for fighting in a book about the breed, and they dont look like the staffordshire bull terriors of today or even when the first breed standard was introduced, so im not sure if they can be classed as SBT or just bull terrior crosses, because it says in that report that they were called SBT after the ban on fighting, it seems a bit unclear to me.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I suppose its like the German Shepards, they were only recognised as a breed in the UK by the Kennel Club in 1919 but were probably being bred and used for sheparding long before then.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

sl85 said:


> When I refereed to bad breeding I included puppy farmers I never said ONLY puppy farmers, as I said a majority of show breeders health is the priority but unfortunately not all, you do get show breeders that exaggerate characteristics hence these health issues are the result. Also length of pedigree is nothing to do with quality of breeding, all dogs kc reg pedigree are 5 gen although can be traced further this is standard length supplied by kc, puppy farmers also kc reg there puppies and 5 gen pedigree supplied. The sores under the skin folds are maybe worse threw exaggeration however if proper care was given to this dog they shouldn't be there not saying this is out of neglect maybe more lack of knowledge on the owners part as the skin fold are meant to be cleaned daily an sudocrem applied but you neighbour should have been informed of this, as for dogs manners that can't be solely blamed on breeding as allot has to do with how the dog is reared (not blaming your neighbours I understand they got this dog at year) Back to the point the situation of your neighbours bulldog is indeed unfortunate however you cannot judge the whole breed by this as I said in my earlier post there are problems with some bulldogs which needs to be addressed but not with the whole breed.


i can assure you the sores in the folds are not out of neglect. i know because i found out how to clean them and showed the owner and i make sure they are cleaned. they still weep by end off the day. i contacted the breed society to ask how to treat the cysts between his toes, and was told thats a common complaint of the bb breed. promptly told how to treat them, but his were too bad to be treated without antibiotics. i did not say his manners were to do with his breed, i was merely pointing out what his manners were like. tbh with anyone else the dog walks fine, they just let him be boss. 
the owner also asked me to get in touch with the society to ask if there were anything that could be done about the dogs folds on his face. apparently this is common too, as is the breathing. apparently they should not be walked too far every day. this is not me talking, this is what i was told by a member of the breed society.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

sl85 said:


> The sores under the skin folds are maybe worse threw exaggeration however if proper care was given to this dog they shouldn't be there not saying this is out of neglect maybe more lack of knowledge on the owners part as the skin fold are meant to be cleaned daily an sudocrem applied .


A dog that has been deliberately bred with the need to have sudocrem applied daily is considered healthy and normal? :bash:


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

Evie said:


> A dog that has been deliberately bred with the need to have sudocrem applied daily is considered healthy and normal? :bash:


Agreed!


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## Skyespirit86 (Feb 23, 2008)

11krage said:


> I hope this starts off a change for the other breed standards, personally I think a lot of the breeds looked much better when they were bred for function not fashion. Warped breeds like the show version of the german shepard make me so sad.


 
All the breeds standards have/are being re-written to my knowledge (sorry if it's already been said). There's been unholy uproar about the health of pedigree dogs, and the UK kennel clubs lack of responsibility. To try and look like they were doing something and responding to pressure they said before Xmas they were rewriting everything- giving back the Peke it's nose etc. But everyone has confronted them and said they aren't going to be fobbed off by that. It's obvious they were trying to impress everyone in time so that 2009 CRUFT's will still be aired. Well they tried, and theyfailed. It seems their opposition are not that stupid and are pushing for real, long term change.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

SiUK said:


> but its not very clear, because I have seen drawings of the first bulldog and terrior crosses that were used for fighting in a book about the breed, and they dont look like the staffordshire bull terriors of today or even when the first breed standard was introduced, so im not sure if they can be classed as SBT or just bull terrior crosses, because it says in that report that they were called SBT after the ban on fighting, it seems a bit unclear to me.



Old thread I know but...
I was reading up about this and found that before they were recognised by the KC they were known as Bull&Terriers but the KC already had the breed Bull Terriers so they had to come up with a different name hence the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. They were a mix of breeds and were used for fighting until the late 1800s and then when the 'sport' lost its popularity the breed lovers took the breed into the show ring rather than the fighting ring. The breed was then standardised so thats why they all look the same now.: victory:


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

wow its about time they did this, i mean i love the english bull dog, as a breed but every one i have met struggles to breath bless them! 

be nice to see the new type well its not really new but what they used to look like before us humans messed with it even more for fashion :2thumb:


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