# dartfrogs in a greenhouse



## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

this is just a thought really but has anybody attempted to keep dartfrogs in the uk in a greenhouse.my current mission is a large..ish 10x8 ali greenhouse just finished glazing today,initially it is for our food but also for all our froggy plants that we have been breeding,[while i build vivs and get our frog room ready] consequently i will probably install some form of secondary glazing and a heatsink to help moderate the climate .I have read that the germans do this and i suppose the nearest in this country will be orchid houses? anyone have any thoughts or knowledge. biggest challenge has to be temperature variation......cheers stu


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## Bearnandos (Nov 24, 2009)

OoOoO the book Poison Frogs - professional breeder series - edition Chimaira, has a good article on dartfrogs in greenhouses. 
Would rec this book to any pdf keeper - pretty cheap and cheerful....yet 
very informative.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

guess what berne,have copy, read too much, now can almost quote it,but its a great shout. I know we have had the hardest winter for years but the climate still must be so much milder here,so therefore easier to apoximate to a tropical "dartfrog enviroment", our budget is real tight but i'm a bit of a tortoise so things move, slow but sure, and we reuse recycle almost every thing. i think you boffins of the orchid world have most of the answers as far as the climate for darts in this country in a greenhouse goes ,am just starting to monitor max/min temps to find out whats really happening in there, firstly for our plants but as you've guessed i'm intregued by the possibilities.PS. thanks again for the orchid tips, next day picked up a bargain mini moth £3 and half dead[i know where they dont look after their plants well so keep having to reduce them oops!!!!!!] but not really half dead just needed a good talking to and some TLC,.....PPS yeah i know you can't go to hamm mate, but chin up there's always something mad round the corner, thats why we do this life thing.Regads [sorry tired] stu&shaz:notworthy:


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I remember reading an article from a Dutch hobbyist who did thus and gave up.He had problems with regulating the temperature and humidity.I dont think that you would see them that readily either as they are so tiny and you would need so many that it would gett very expensive.
Why not try some European or North American Species?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

i think temp. variation is going to be the biggest deal, humidity should not be to difficult to achieve with enough plants misting systems etc. but it has to be darts..... , probably indoors though,as we have plans for a frog room underway.but it would be great to give the little fellas more room than a 40cm cube. Obviously an undertaking like this for tropical species would have to take a huge amount of research and monitoring of the biotope before any livestock could be introduced probably at least a year just to experiance the full range of climatic conditions but i still am intregued thanks for your thoughts colin, cheers stu


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

If you are going to do it indoors you can build a large vivarium and haveit heavily planted.There are plenty of these on the continent and other forums are available :2thumb: .It will be an expensive task but you can make it the centrepiece of you living room like a good aquarium.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sorry, i mean't we have a room for frogs, being slowly set up up stairs, north side of the house, where the temp is most stable. It was the dream of being able to get in amongst 'em that fascinated me, and of course all that space. if i can sort some form of double glazing and a solar heatsink this might give a chance, with back up heating in the winter, but it would take ages to be sure you could get the temps under control i have worked under glass for a couple of seasons and the temp is a nightmare.thanks for the tips about forums in europe there is some amazing stuff both vivs and frogrooms out there seeya stu


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

*frogs in greenhouse*

I've raised darts and tree frogs in greenhouses for years but I'm afraid it isn't easy. Humidity isn't an issue but the huge temperature fluctuations are a nightmare to deal with, and these days it's expensive to maintain a constant overnight temperature etc.
On the plus side you save on lighting and it makes for fantastic large natural environments with the full range of natural foodstuffs. It's almost possible to make a totally sustainable little eco system, certainly for the darts; treefrogs were a bit harder to maintain foodstuffs for.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

hey treefrogchris please say we can come and see how the hell you are doing this,but in the summer maybe i'm so busy with stuff at the mo would really love to bring shaz an pick your brains,put the biggest water tank in the G.H. today trying to moderate the temp with water [well it works in cornwall] and some form of heat exchanger however it turns out it will be let us say alternative!!! cheers for the reply,ouch i hurt!!


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

I always use a deep pond for the same reason, but with my new greenhouse I'm planning on a large water barrel as well. Also fancy a solar heated sink hole but doubt I'll get around to it.
My last greenhouse was beautiful but someone stole my entire breeding colony of red eyes (about 20 frogs) so I lost heart and didn't bother heating it over winter. Lost hundreds of orchids etc as a result.

Due to building work my other half persuaded me to knock the first GH down as it was too close to the house but I have replaced it with a new one I built out of all the scrap building material.
Twin walled with thermal lagging in between and also double glazed windows; looks more like a swiss cottage than a greenhouse but hopefully should retain the heat better.
It's still a work in progress, only got aspadistra (always spell that wrong), ginger and some orchids growing in it at the moment because it got pretty cold in there over winter.


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## agreendream (Dec 8, 2009)

Ha really great to find this thread! 
I have been planning this for a few years now.
I am along the way in as much as I finally have a greenhouse and its filling up with plants.
It has been less then a year and so I am still learning a great deal about its working and so wont be adding animals for at the very least another year.

My biggest issue is theft, everything else I will learn over time but the animals being stolen I could not bare.
Is there a way to secure them?

I plan to keep darts in there, maybe a few of the small geckos too and lots of food insects 

Ow and I love orchids so there will more of those!

Great thread guys keep it up!

Chris


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I considered this but the heat fluctuations put me off.

Going to weight until I buy a house and steal a room.


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

The heat fluctuations etc are a total stress, but being able to walk into your enclosure and have lizards and frogs roaming around you is a brilliant experience.
It's also quite addictive experimenting with plants and discovering what cope well in the environment-ginger is one of my favourites, never knew how great a plant it was for tree frogs and amazing flower head. 

AGREENDREAM - your photo looks great and its definitely starting to look impressive. You are going to have fun tracking down your frogs if you let them run free in there. I know from bitter experience that theft is an issue and clearly the thieves were experienced at dealing with red eyes! My new greenhouse is like fort knox as a result, walls are half a foot thick and windows are all double glazed etc. Alarms and Belgian Shepherd dogs finish the package, so fingers crossed this time haha


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

hi guys have just spent 30 mins typing reply computer says NO ARGHHHHHH!!!! lets see if this gets there.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

well it did so her goes for a shorterversion [god what a day but at least the sun was shining and i was too hot in me G.H.]Son has just infomed computer numpt dad[me] that the inter web thingy is well giving us the finger so i will try tomorrow thanks for replys stu


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

agreendream said:


> Ha really great to find this thread!
> I have been planning this for a few years now.
> I am along the way in as much as I finally have a greenhouse and its filling up with plants.
> It has been less then a year and so I am still learning a great deal about its working and so wont be adding animals for at the very least another year.
> ...


Oh my word.
That looks so cool.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Treefrogchris,hey dude,i'm am devastated that someone stole your redeyes,even worse that it could be someone that knows about frogs.Still trying to be posative[and i have to be],your new project has obviously benefitted from your already aquired knowledge,and is going to be way more able to stand our british climate,fair play for your tanacity mate that would have beaten alot of people:notworthy:.I can appreciate the amount of small foodstuff that a dart would be able to eat in this kind of environment,we are pretty much organic and have had one of those little plastic tent G.H.s on the same site for many years, The life in there beggers belief, one morning early, i was watering and came face to face with a newt[probably young palmate]nearly 6'up on a metal rack she must have stuck to the metal pole to climb up there amazing first thing i saw were these fantastic golden eyes i jumped feet:lol2:,we have even seen the build up of small parasitic wasps[poss. encarsia] that nail all the greenfly. The tank is aprox. 3'x5'x3'6" our first port of call has been to black two sides i have an old rad which has also been blacked we are going to use it as a solar syphon to add to the heating of the water in the day this will then be given back at night so moderating temp.have to dash will be back soon .ps agreendream wow


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Oh an dude we still want to come an see the"swiss cottage" ,but maybe u come here first atm i am just guy on the interweb. What do you mean by thermal lagging?.....Agreendream wow mate your plants look fantastic!!{ funniest thing; every time i look at your name i see ANGRY:lol2: dream i just can't see the N i have some kind of very mild dislexia but really funny 'cause i can see it working in this word/name} Anyway kiddo your set up really does look cool,it appears we have almost the same G.H. i would recognise it anywhere,i have spent the last week honing my glass cutting skills,.....so here come the questions:do you leave the bubble wrap up all year?. what is your heating regime? did these plants stay in theG.H. all winter? and heres the biggy....is that temperate moss/do you know what species it is ....MOSS WHO KNOWS?


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

Ok, let's see if I can remember how to link pics

This was greenhouse number 1









Made it all out of perspex to avoid the kids getting hurt











Then covered it all in horticultural bubble wrap for winter









Pretty soon the frogs were happy in their new home


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

Greenhouse number 2

Ok, it looks more like a shed than a swiss cottage, but it's still early days










The walls are twin layer wood (scrap planks from old pallets) with insulation between them, so hopefully it should help retain the heat.
The windows are all double glazed
The roof is perspex with a few layers of bubble wrap internally for insulation over winter.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

looks like a very posh shed though chris,how are you finding the temp. variation in there.the old one looked great inside mate, how did you get round ventilating the place in the winter?what did you use to fix the bubblewrap in place some form of tape? so difficult to stop the little buggers squeezing behind it.We have finaly started to fill the tank today,it is taking hours,we have had to abandon a solar powered pump for the mo. as cost was prohibitive so have settled for a mains powered pond pump.I recon i will need electric in there anyway for extra winter heat.Am currently racking my brains as to what to use as a heat exchanger, to take the excess heat from the top of the house and dump it in the tank, to be released at night.i was going to use a blacked rad but am concearned about the weight, so may use black pipe instead. Thanks for the photos i have no digi camera so cannot post yet.Still cant beleive that someone would steal your beautiful redeyes mate, but i really shouldn't be so shocked it happens in the bird world too and again tis people who know birds shocking. regards Stu and Shaz


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

hi guys,so i have just spent the whole of easter playing "alternative plumbers",it took me a day to drain the tank,which i have now connected up to a black radiator.This sits on the ground the top of which is below the waterlevel of the tank,the rad sits in a wooden box with a glass front ,(so trapping the heat from the sun),the water is warmed by the sun in the rad,and then flows back to the tank uphill!!! (heat rises),i think this is a solar syphon there are no pumps.the tank of warmed water then give its heat back to the G.H. at night,and omg it works,you can see the little bits in the water moving.I have no idea how effective its going to be watch this space.have also built a heat exchanger and fitted it to the top of the house but do not have the funds to make it work yet.We are desparate to get our darty type plants outside(they have been proliferating on the kitchen table for about 5 months:gasp so has anyone any ideas of what is the mimimum temp. that broms creeping ficus etc can stand.we have also started to line the G.H. with twinwall polcarb which is easily fixed to the inside using cropped bolts(if you can find some long enough that is. Any ideas as to where to buy 2cm cropped bolts? ). how long will it be before the sun gets to strong and we have to shade? all help gratefuly appreciated cheers and regards stu&shaz


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

Sadly the severity of this winter caught me by surprise and I hadn't fully insulated the GH in time; so I did lose a load of orchids. Just hoping my ginger survived as I have a massive patch of it that produces fantastic plants each year.
The GH temperature was always a few degrees above the outside temp. but this year that wasn't enough to keep everything alive (I lost all my fire bellied toad tadpoles etc)
Not sure if the adult toads made it through but it's still early days for them to start emerging.


Very interested in the radiator idea, keep us posted on how it works.
Have you got a max/min thermometer in there to keep track of how many degrees extra it achieves?
I lost the majority of my orchids and all my broms this year because of the severe cold and was debating about limiting what I grow this year as I don't want to pay to heat it. Your idea could possibly deliver enough to keep the ice away and allow me to keep more plants in there over winter.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Hey chris, how the devil are you sir?do you know what temp. you lost your plants at? (condolensces, even more for your tads ) yes i do have a max/min in there but of course i need another outside to compare the temps. i will get one as soon as me funds ease up.The idea is unfortunately not mine,we saw it at the centre for alternative technology have a look mate they actually use this system(or sommit similar) to heat domestic hot water and they might be able to give you more ideas as to what rad size tank size you need. we have had quite a sunny day today it was amazing to feel stone cold water entering the rad and luke warm comming out.Our tank takes up nearly 1/4 the floor it is bloody huge i couldn't mount the rad at the top of our G.H.,how i wanted to, it woundn't take the weight,but from what i have seen of the "swiss cottage" you might be able to make the most of the avaiable heat up there.dude how did you get your ginger did you just plant some stem ginger that you can buy for cooking? fingers crossed for your fire bellies it really was one hell of a winter, its killed loads of outdoor plants here that have survived for years. thanks for your input i might be able to get some pics up my son says he can do it with his phone?(i thought that was something you talked to people on:lol2 but then i am a bit of a technophobe......ish)seeya mate stu


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

ginger is literally the ginger root you buy at the supermarket. Cut a piece into two or three pieces, put in a bag of slightly damp compost in an airing cupboard or similar for a few weeks and when you go back to it you will see some new growth. Plant that and it turns into 7' tall broadleafed plants with amazing flower heads. They look great and if you are are very productive. When I moved mine it literally took two of us to carry the ginger root tubors.


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

another favourite is aspidistra. My plant has been in the family for almost 200 years so I was a bit worried this winter, but it survived with only one damaged leaf!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

2oo years thats amazing my family gets messed up in less than 2 generations:gasp: cheers for the ginger tip by the sound of it you should be growing it for profit: victory: bring on the ginger beer!!!!


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

knew I had a picture of the ginger flowerhead


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wow that's fantastic!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

yeah we totally agree with morg that is truely amazing we can see why you waxed lyrical about the ginge. mate, shaz says "looks like we're gonna be growing ginger then" WOW


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## treefrogschris (May 25, 2006)

Ok, your radiator idea has got me thinking.
In winter when I really need to generate heat, the sun isn't up to much and probably wouldn't heat the water sufficiently.
I'm toying with the idea of the heat being generated by a compost bin. The middle of a composter gets amazingly hot so if I ran pipes through the middle these could heat the water all year round.......
At the moment I've moved a composter into the greenhouse. Not sure if I'll have the cash or time to experiment with the heat idea, but it will certainly give all the fire bellied toads somewhere to hibernate and will also ensure I have a constant supply of livefood for the greenhouse inhabitants


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

they used to use a wet staw horse manure mix to heat the pinapple house in the "lost gardens of Heligan" Cornwall the compost mix needs to be changed i believe every six weeks,it caught them out with the amount of labour needed i seem to recall.But if you run a lenth (coil)of alcathene? pipe up the center of the bin,would certainly generate heat for a period of time.trouble is compo works best when turned often.i agree that the water might not be enough in the winter so much depends on the insulation of the building/amount of heat exchangers,so far we are up aprox 6degrees c. last night a mate got his spuds burned not far from me, by frost ,my g.h. temp directly above the tank was 14 c definitely up, but as you say loadsa sun.it also tends to run true that thecoldest nights are following sunny days, who knows, it will definitely cut the heating bill, though, I double glazed the rad today trying to squeeze abit more from it VERY early signs are promising .


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

doh, and totally agree with the food /hibernation theory.our natives tuck up in ours for a bit of extra warmth have any showed yet


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