# Heating Question



## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

Hi, if I wanted a basking bulb, and a ceramic heater in the same tank, what would be the best way of doing it? Would it be best to have them both on a dimming stat (or another stat?), with the use of a 2 pin plug, and a timer on the one with the basking bulb, or would I need two separate stats, and if so, which ones. If I had two, there would be the advantage of a sensor in the middle, to monitor the air temp, and one on the basking site to measure the basking temp. What do you think?

Thanks alot, Mike


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## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Here's what works for me:

100W CHE on Pulspe-prop thermostat
100W Powersun (does not require stat)

CHE is at the "cool end", Powersun is at the "hot end" - both in Zoo Med dome clamp lamps. Thermostat is set to 75F. Gradient in viv (3'x1.5'x3') runs from 80F-100F during the day. Not sure what it is at night but shouldn't in theory drop to below 75F if the thermostat works lol.


All depends what animal its for I guess.

Dave


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## bjherp (Jul 10, 2005)

Magpye said:


> Here's what works for me:
> 
> 100W CHE on Pulspe-prop thermostat
> 100W Powersun (does not require stat)
> ...


If you have a heat source in the warm end and also in the cool end, you can't be providing the correct gradient, 

You should have all heat sources to one side of the vivarium therfore creating the thermal gradient form warm end to cool end.

The thermostat is designed to stop the heat if it goes above 75f so it should if working correctly keep it below 75F.

If you put a heat source in both ends the animal cant thermoregulate correctly as both ends are heated.

The stats are designed to do a job each, pulse as mentioned for ceramics , dimming for glass bulbs, and the mat or temp stat designed for heat mats.

There is no real need to use both ceramic and heat bulb, just one is fine, therefore one stat to buy.

www.reptilekeeping.net


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## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Apologies,

Let me clarify. My vivs are in a shed outside and so a CHE is essential at night time. Because it is on a thermostat the CHE only kicks in when the temp drops below 75F. As you say - when the basking lamp is on the viv is warm enough and so the CHE does not turn on because it is thermostatically controlled (not sure I articulated that quite right lol).

The CHE is at the opposite end to the Powersun simply because the Powersun is at the end of the viv where the air vents are. If the CHE was at this end also, then when nightime comes and the Powersun goes out (bearing in mind the viv is in a shed) then the economics will go out of the window because the CHE will be competing with cold air breezing in.

The shed is insulated throughout. Vivs kept indoors do not require CHEs at night because the room temp rarely drops below 65-70F. 

Regards

Dave.


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## bjherp (Jul 10, 2005)

Cheers for clarifying the point,

I was going to say that keeping a heat source in both ends isn't that wise.

You just have to think of the others using the forum, to them if they took your advice as written in the answer above, they would think keeping heat in both ends is what reptiles require.

But thanks for pointing out how you have the set-up.

Jerry Cole


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## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Yeah me bad - wasn't thinking.


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## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

Well ive been told that for the lizard Im after (ackies monitor) that Im going to need to do that. The basking bulb for the basking spot, and the CHE at the same end, to provide air temp at night, because I dont want the bulb on (even if a red one) at night because it will be in my bedroom.
Any thoughts on which stat/s?

Thanks, Mike


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## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Ah monitors are easy. 

Basking spot can be a Par38 Halogen flood lamp (80W or 120W depending on size of viv - you will have to try one or the other before you know what the temps reach) - this will need a ceramic fitting. Provided basking spot does not exceed 150F there should be no ill effects but you are aiming for 120F. Most monitor keepers do not use stats on the basking spot because it rarely exceeds 120F.

Some ackie keepers as you say leave their lights on 24/7. I don't - instead I have a CHE. I leave this running 24/7 on a pulse prop stat set at 84F. The CHE I have is positioned in the middle of the viv (because I have the temp set to 84F and the probe is positioned in between the CHE and the Basking spot) a horizontal gradient is created ranging from around 75F-120F.

From what I've read people use their stats in different ways: 

Some people position the heat source at 1 end and then put the probe at the opposite end and set the stat to the minimum temp - that way a gradient is created but you run the risk of overheating the hot end. 

Other people put the probe at the hot end with the heat source and set it to the maximum temp - again this creates a gradient and reduces the risk of overheating the hot end.

I have the CHE positioned in the middle and the probe positioned between the CHE and the basking site, with the stat set to ambient temp.

At the end of the day you will have to install the equipment and see what works for you - variable factors will be the size of the viv, the wattage of the CHE and the wattage of the basking lamp. I don't believe there is a right or wrong provided an adequate gradient is created without the risk of burning the reptile.

My viv is 6'x3'x3' and houses Freckled Monitors which are about the same size as Ackies but are preferential arborealists.


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## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

SO would it be a par38 like this one? Par 38 Reflector (Flood 30º) - Light Bulbs - Lamps and Tubes — Osram - Sylvania - Philips - GE
What about if I put the bulb and the CHE on a pulse proportional stat, and have them both on the hot side of the viv, and put the sensor in the middle?
Also, do the zoo med clamp lamps have gaurds over the bottom of them to stop animals from getting near the bulb/CHE? For the bulb would I need a reflector, if I got the one in the link above?

Thanks alot, Mike


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## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

KenMan said:


> SO would it be a par38 like this one? Par 38 Reflector (Flood 30º) - Light Bulbs - Lamps and Tubes — Osram - Sylvania - Philips - GE
> What about if I put the bulb and the CHE on a pulse proportional stat, and have them both on the hot side of the viv, and put the sensor in the middle?
> Also, do the zoo med clamp lamps have gaurds over the bottom of them to stop animals from getting near the bulb/CHE? For the bulb would I need a reflector, if I got the one in the link above?
> 
> Thanks alot, Mike



That lamp is fine however you can't put it on a pulse stat because they work by switching on and off - you will blow the bulb. It will work on a dimmer stat. The Zoo Med Clamps have domes (reflectors) but no guards - if they are placed appropriately then the Ackies will not be able to reach them. As I say it's a case of setting the viv up and testing it before you get the Ackies. You may find that the Lamps generate a 120F basking site when positioned some 12-16" above the site which is fine. 

Again - with the CHE and stat - you will need to play around with the setup. There is no sense in placing them next to each other in a large set up because the basking site being hot will mean the CHE will not be on during the day. The halogen lamp will only heat up about a square foot of the viv - hence the reason I have placed mine in the middle of the viv to create a longer heat gradient. If the middle of the viv isn't above 85F then you may find the Ackies sticking to 1 end of the viv because the rest is simply too cold.

There are too many variables with large vivariums and high powered lamps to be able to answer your question. It's not as straight-forward as a gecko or bearded dragon set up. You need to play with the position of things and take lots of temp measurements before you can be satisfied the gradient is sufficient.

Dave


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## mark67123 (Jun 11, 2006)

You'd need two stats if you want to have just the bulb on a mechanical-type timer.
Because the timer would have to be placed after the stat in the chain, it would receive reduced power for a lot of the time as the stat would reduce the power to regulate the heat, which in turn would cause the timer to run slow.

Not sure if this would be the case with a digital timer though as I've never used them. Anyone else know?


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## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

mark67123 said:


> You'd need two stats if you want to have just the bulb on a mechanical-type timer.
> Because the timer would have to be placed after the stat in the chain, it would receive reduced power for a lot of the time as the stat would reduce the power to regulate the heat, which in turn would cause the timer to run slow.
> 
> Not sure if this would be the case with a digital timer though as I've never used them. Anyone else know?



Not sure, you wouldn't be able to run a timer chained to a pulse stat because the timer would only tick when the pulse stat sends a pulse of electricity to it. 

You could run the timer chained to a dimmer stat but as stated it would be inaccurate due to the drain - not sure if this applies to a digital timer. CHE won't work on a dimmer stat - it may even get damaged.

I would suggest putting the CHE on a pulse stat 24/7 and placing it in the middle of the viv with the probe either in the middle (set to 85F) or at the cool end (set to 75F). And then having the halogen flood on for 12-14 hours a day either on a dimmer stat, or without a stat - remember the Ackies will be fine until you begin to exceed 140F and so if the Halogen flood only reaches 120F there will be no problems.

Dave


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## mark67123 (Jun 11, 2006)

Magpye said:


> CHE won't work on a dimmer stat - it may even get damaged.


I'd have to disagree with you on that one - a dimming stat is just another kind of proportional stat that gives a continuous current rather than pulses. I've used ceramics on a dimming stat with no problems at all.
The only difference (in my experience anyway) would be that pulse stats are maybe a bit more accurate than dimming stats with ceramics.


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## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

Ok then. I can get two dimming stats as easily as a dimming and a pulse proportional, so thats not a problem. Its just the thing is, Im getting my stuff off the internet, so if I get one dimmer stat and see if its all OK, but its not, then I have to re-pay postage etc and it becomes more of a hassle...
Also, do you know how high the clamp lamps are, because Im thinking of getting a 17" high viv instead of a 2 foot, to allow more UV etc. So I dont want the bottom of the clamp lamps to be too near the viv, or decor etc so they cant get burnt...
Say I got one dimmer stat for the basking bulb (would a normal, reptile basking bulb be better than one of those par38 ones, because it would be easier to get for me...) and then had its sensor on the basking spot (which will be raised slate), then would the CHE be better on a pulse stat or a dimmer? If I had the CHE and its sensor in the middle, would I be best having it say 10 degrees lower than that on the basking site, and having the basking bulb and its stat on a timer so it wont come on at night, so that the CHE will heat the entire viv at night 10 degrees lower than the air temp in the day?
Sorry if thats abit confusing...
Thanks for all your help guys

Mike


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## Scoffa (Nov 23, 2006)

I don't understand why people do things differently and make things more complicated than they really are. I work with boas and provide a hot spot under the heater. This is the temp I want to control so I put the probe on the wall of the viv directly behind the ceramic heater. I can't put the probe exactly under the heater because the snake will lay on top and cause overheating. I now put a digital thermometer under the heater about 2" above the floor, and adjust the thermostat to provide the Day Time High temp. This means the maximum temp that the snake requires is under the heater. The snake can always move to a cooler area if it likes but cannot get overheated. Next I leave the digital thermometer under the heater and set the Night Time Low. This means that during the night the maximum temp is always under the heater. This is important when brumating the snake because it means it cannot get any hotter during the night and so reaches it's lowest temp. Yes the temp will get lower, in other parts of the viv, than the snake requires but I can garauntee where the snake will be during brumation and it will be properly brumated.


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## KenMan (Feb 14, 2007)

Ok right, basking bulb on dimmer stat at hot end, CHE in middle on pulse prop, with sensor in middle, set at 85 F, no timer on the bulb (what about holidays, or nights out?!?!) just turn on at night. Got it.

Thanks, Mike


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## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Scoffa said:


> I don't understand why people do things differently and make things more complicated than they really are. I work with boas and provide a hot spot under the heater. This is the temp I want to control so I put the probe on the wall of the viv directly behind the ceramic heater. I can't put the probe exactly under the heater because the snake will lay on top and cause overheating. I now put a digital thermometer under the heater about 2" above the floor, and adjust the thermostat to provide the Day Time High temp. This means the maximum temp that the snake requires is under the heater. The snake can always move to a cooler area if it likes but cannot get overheated. Next I leave the digital thermometer under the heater and set the Night Time Low. This means that during the night the maximum temp is always under the heater. This is important when brumating the snake because it means it cannot get any hotter during the night and so reaches it's lowest temp. Yes the temp will get lower, in other parts of the viv, than the snake requires but I can garauntee where the snake will be during brumation and it will be properly brumated.



Things are not being made complicated at all. If you take into consideration the activity levels of a monitor such as an Ackie (or in my case a Freckled), you will realise that they are very active - they will use the whole of the vivarium. I haven't had a great deal of experience with snakes but of those that I have - they have shown themselves to be generally inactive animals.

If all of the heating of a vivarium measuring 6'x3'x3' - thats about 2x1m floor space - is placed at one end of the viv, then the heat will be focused in only about a 1/4 of the vivarium. By distrubiting the heat over half of the vivarium - maintaining an ambient temperature as well as creating a basking site (do boas bask at 120F? - I thought it was about 95F) then this provides more of an area in which the monitor will be active. Reptiles do work to a heat gradient and have preferred body temperatures. I can speak from experience that if all of the heating in such a large vivarium is focussed at only 1 end then the monitor will routinely return to the hot end to bask for a minute or so at a time before wandering off to explore - only to return to the basking site in a very short time to warm up again.

The "complication" as you put it that I can see is that 1 heat source is about 2' away from the other. It still requires the same equipment, the same number of plugs, screws and fittings; costs no more or less; and provides a larger zone of activity in which the animal can maintain its preferred body temperature. There is still a gradient in the vivarium (in my case) of 75F-120F - its just distributed over a larger area so that at least 50% of the vivarium is maintained in the region of 85F, 25% ranging to 75F and 25% ranging to 120F.

To maximize use of a large vivarium you not only have to consider maximum temps, but minimum temps - and the proportionate distribution of the 2 over space.


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