# Fire bellied toad (Bombina species) identification thread.



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Many people are unsure of what 'type', or more correctly the 'species', of Fire bellied toad that they have. Here is a picture guide to help you with the identification of three of the six most popular species of Bombina that are seen in captivity - the Oriental fire bellied toad (Bombina orientalis) or OFBT, the European fire bellied toad (Bombina bombina) or EFBT, and finally the European yellow bellied toad (Bombina variegata) or EYBT. There are several other species of Bombina but i will deal with them at a later date - the main confusion i see with regularity on RFUK is between the Oriental FBT and the European FBT. You will notice a very obvious difference in shape between the OFBT and the EFBT, the EFBT giving a much more pear shaped appearance and smaller/more pointed head compared to the other 2 species. So, onto the pictures starting with a dorsal (top or overhead) view to illustrate this point.

Firstly, the Oriental FBT...










Secondly, the European FBT...










And finally, the European YBT...










Next we look at them from the underside where the difference between the species is much more apparent. Both the OFBT and EYBT have brightly coloured toe tips, the EFBT on the other hand does not have brightly coloured toe tips (although they may exhibit quite pale toe tips). Also note the OFBT does not have the white tubercles or spots on it's underside that the EFBT exhibits. 

The Oriental fire bellied toad...










The European fire bellied toad...










The European yellow bellied toad...










Some more shots -

The Oriental fire bellied toad...










The European fire bellied toad...










The European yellow bellied toad...


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Just to point out that each frog (which is what Bombina 'toads' actually are - a frog not a toad) were tubbed separately with their own brand new sponge... I'm very fussy about the risk of passing on potentially harmful pathogens etc between different species, and indeed keep all my animals species specific i.e one species per enclosure.

Cheers
Al


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Well, to be fair, 'frog' and 'toad' are British constructions- purely because our 'frogs' all belong to the Ranidae, and our 'toads' are bufonoids. Travel a bit more widely, and you have treefrogs- more closely related to 'toads', reed frogs and dart frogs (ranid), horned frogs, firebellied toads and clawed frogs- which aren't closely aligned to either. And it goes on. 'Frog' or 'toad' are pretty meaningless beyond the two families- so neither are correct or incorrect.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> Well, to be fair, 'frog' and 'toad' are British constructions- purely because our 'frogs' all belong to the Ranidae, and our 'toads' are bufonoids. Travel a bit more widely, and you have treefrogs- more closely related to 'toads', reed frogs and dart frogs (ranid), horned frogs, firebellied toads and clawed frogs- which aren't closely aligned to either. And it goes on. 'Frog' or 'toad' are pretty meaningless beyond the two families- so neither are correct or incorrect.


In theory, every anuran should be called just that rather than a frog or a toad. But, as there is a clear morphological difference between a Ranid and Bufonid, it's up to scientists to decide what genus should eventually fall under which category i guess, just as they decide which species falls under what genus. The reason some things are called toads when they're actually more closely related to frogs as the English speaking world know them (and vice versa) is down to the person who gives it that particular common name (which is why i hate common names - they're often inaccurate). The bottom line is that, despite the common name, taxonomists have decided they have more in common with true frogs than true toads, thus making them part of the 'frog' family. Most of the other examples you gave are also examples of the flaw that is common names, and who gives them those common names. For those genuses that show intermediate characteristics, they should perhaps invent a new family for them to fall under - 'Foads' or 'Trogs'?

Cheers
Al


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## Bug_Juice (Apr 2, 2010)

Very interesting and informative, thanks!

Also, from these pics, EFBTs seem like the ugly cousin of the Orientals and the Yellow Bellies, poor guys.

Are you gonna do some more on Maxima and the rest of the clan?


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Bug_Juice said:


> Very interesting and informative, thanks!
> 
> Also, from these pics, EFBTs seem like the ugly cousin of the Orientals and the Yellow Bellies, poor guys.
> 
> Are you gonna do some more on Maxima and the rest of the clan?


Those are just 3 individual specimens 'Bug_Juice', actual colouration is very variable, each species has the potential to look far nicer than the other but as i say it's down to the individual specimen. Rather than colour, the photo's are there to show the difference in markings and patterns - thus if these had all been taken in black and white, you'd still be able to tell the difference . 

As for the maxima, i hope to be getting some more later this year. After that, i'm very familiar with the other European bombina i.e pachypus, but the other little known species from Asia i do not know much about at all - infact it wasn't till fairly recently that i realised that they must look very different to the orientalis, as geographically some imports would suggest that they are Bombina fortunuptialis (that was according to something i read in an beginners basic amphibian husbandry book by Philippe de Vosjoli funnily enough but it's apparently incorrect however).

Cheers
Al


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Notice the mistake?....

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/55891-photograph-wanted-firebelly-toad-bombina.html


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Notice the mistake?....
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/55891-photograph-wanted-firebelly-toad-bombina.html


:gasp: well that's an orientalis which aren't found in Europe. 

She's asking for a bombina anyway.

Go me.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> :gasp: well that's an orientalis which aren't found in Europe.
> 
> She's asking for a bombina anyway.
> 
> Go me.


I wonder if the picture of the B.orientalis was used as the B.bombina in the end? As it's quite clear in the thread that she was specifically after a picture of the European Bombina bombina.

Cheers
Al


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Out of interest... can you cross breed Bombina species?
(I'm not planning on doing this)


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> Out of interest... can you cross breed Bombina species?
> (I'm not planning on doing this)


Yes, you can Harvey but for obvious reasons it's not a good idea. Now that a certain chap has had his wrists slapped for smuggling in Euro species recently i notice that there is not the glut of adult 'CB' variegata around this year like there was last year, so it's now especially important not to muddy the water by crossing say variegata and orientalis. I'm totally against anyone smuggling in large numbers of a given species and therefore caning the local population - so good result.

Cheers
Al


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> In theory, every anuran should be called just that rather than a frog or a toad. But, as there is a clear morphological difference between a Ranid and Bufonid, it's up to scientists to decide what genus should eventually fall under which category i guess, just as they decide which species falls under what genus. The reason some things are called toads when they're actually more closely related to frogs as the English speaking world know them (and vice versa) is down to the person who gives it that particular common name (which is why i hate common names - they're often inaccurate). The bottom line is that, despite the common name, taxonomists have decided they have more in common with true frogs than true toads, thus making them part of the 'frog' family. Most of the other examples you gave are also examples of the flaw that is common names, and who gives them those common names. For those genuses that show intermediate characteristics, they should perhaps invent a new family for them to fall under - 'Foads' or 'Trogs'?
> 
> Cheers
> Al


Sorry, 'disc-tongued frogs' are not, to my knowledge any more close to ranids than than they are to bufonoids.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Took this pic for you today, Al:2thumb:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ben W said:


> Took this pic for you today, Al:2thumb:


Male looking calamita, very nice Ben - where did you see this, the East Dorset site or Marwell?


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

At Marwell mate, sandies there too!!!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Didn't see this earlier, better late than never eh!!!


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## axorozzas (Aug 16, 2008)

Quick question: Why are some bombina orientalis brown and others green? Are they a subspecies? or even a seperate species?
I have a dark brown variety, which had green patches when they were younger. 
In Phillipe de Vosjoli's "Popular amphibians" it states that light brown ones commonly sold as "Bronze morphs" are usually a seperate species _Bombina fortinuptulis_.

This has been a subject of much confusion for me ever since I got my FBTs, and here seems as good a place as any to clear it up.

Thanks!

And Ron


> Sorry, 'disc-tongued frogs' are not, to my knowledge any more close to ranids than than they are to bufonoids.


 Bombina has been seperated from disc tongued frogs.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

axorozzas said:


> Quick question: Why are some bombina orientalis brown and others green? Are they a subspecies? or even a seperate species?
> I have a dark brown variety, which had green patches when they were younger.
> In Phillipe de Vosjoli's "Popular amphibians" it states that light brown ones commonly sold as "Bronze morphs" are usually a seperate species _Bombina fortinuptulis_.
> 
> ...


Natural variety. Different colours from different collection sites.

Also, CB orientalis tend to be less colourful.


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## axorozzas (Aug 16, 2008)

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It's nice to know mine were Captive Bred


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

axorozzas said:


> Quick question: Why are some bombina orientalis brown and others green? Are they a subspecies? or even a seperate species?


Bombina orientalis come into the pet trade from 3 main areas

1) Korea - These tend to be uniformly bright green and tend to be larger stockier built animals.
2) China - These are often smaller, green, brown or a mixture of green and brown and tend to be farmed in large numbers for the aquatics trade.
3) Russia - Most of these are a distinctive 'golden' brassy brown and tend to have very deep red underside, they are quite distinct from the brown colouration of Chinese animals.

These are all the same species, all have the same requirements and will all breed together giving viable fertile offspring.




axorozzas said:


> In Phillipe de Vosjoli's "Popular amphibians" it states that light brown ones commonly sold as "Bronze morphs" are usually a seperate species _Bombina fortinuptulis_.


Bombina fortinuptialis is one of the maxima group (maxima, lichuanensis, fortinuptialis, & microdeladigitora) which were for a while split by some into a new genus called 'Grobina'.
B.fortinuptialis & B.microdeladigitoria are no longer recognised as seperate species and are now included as maxima although some believe they should be included under lichuanensis instead.
Either way these giant Bombina look nothing like B.orientalis.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

*Giant Fire-bellied Toad (Bombina maxima)*:



















And to show why Bombina maxima are called the Giant Fire-bellied Toad here's a size comparison between adult male Bombina maxima (left) and an average sized adult male Bombina orientalis (right):


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Nice to see the maxima,they always remind me of a large variegata.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

axorozzas said:


> And Ron
> Bombina has been seperated from disc tongued frogs.


They used to be Discoglossids alongside Alytes etc but were moved into their own family, Bombinatoridae, and are no longer recognised as part of the disc tongued 'frog' family currently, however i do know that taxonomically wise there has been some recent work done with the Bombina genus so my knowledge on this is very unlikely to be 100% up to date.

Hopefully Lotte this page will be of help particularly to the newbies, and thankyou Andrew for providing some shots of your maxima.

Cheers
Al


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## Scuwiffpixi (Nov 23, 2008)

*2 different types in my tank? :S*

This thread is great! :2thumb: Thank you so much o wise n froggy one  :notworthy: you really know your stuff!!!

I recently got a trio of FBT and wondered why one of them looked a bit different, less pear shaped, bright red toes and more brown than the other two who are a fatter shape, bright green and brown with light toes. 

This mean that I have 2 different types in one enclosure?? :gasp:

I'm a bit of a newbie to fogs/toads but keep newts very successfully.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

Scuwiffpixi said:


> I recently got a trio of FBT and wondered why one of them looked a bit different, less pear shaped, bright red toes and more brown than the other two who are a fatter shape, bright green and brown with light toes.
> 
> This mean that I have 2 different types in one enclosure?? :gasp:


What you have will all be orientalis it's just the natural variation found in the species.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

pollywog said:


> What you have will all be orientalis it's just the natural variation found in the species.


Yep- three of mine are bright green most of the time, one is always variations on bronze, and the two newbies have a 'patchwork' of both colours, although one is more predominantly green, the other mostly bronze.


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## Scuwiffpixi (Nov 23, 2008)

*phew*

Phew, that's ok then! I was beginning to worry that I would have to find room for yet more tanks! :whistling2: I would rather my species be separated if they are different. Thanks for that guys! :2thumb:


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