# European Protected Species - Have you applied for your license yet?



## Ssthisto

The Natural England site is now listing the EPS species online license form here:

https://www.english-nature.org.uk/webappsSL/index.cfm

This covers animals on Schedule 5 of the Wildlife and Countryside act, as well as animals on Schedule 2 of the Habitats Directive (which covers the European Protected Species). It does have a clause section for keeping animals in captivity "to preserve zoological collections". I do not know at this time if the form is "set up" to deal with those of us who have WC individuals of listed species from outside the EU - nor for those of us who have individuals of uncertain heritage.

Has anyone applied for one of these licenses yet for any of their European species? If so, how much detail did you go into? Have you received your license yet? Have you been contacted?

For those of you who don't know, the following reptiles are on the list of animals that apparently need to be licensed if you do not have specimen-specific paperwork proving your animal was captive bred:

Species I have personally seen in the pet trade/shops/etc I have highlighted in RED. 

*TESTUDINATA*
*Testudinidae*
Testudo graeca - Mediterranean Spur-Thighed and Greek Tortoises
Testudo hermanni - Hermann's Tortoise
Testudo marginata - Marginated Tortoise
*Cheloniidae*
Caretta caretta - Loggerhead Sea Turtle
Chelonia mydas - Green Turtle
Lepidochelys kempii - Kemp's Ridley Sea Turtle
Eretmochelys imbricata - Hawksbill Turtle
*Dermochelyidae*
Dermochelys coriacea - Leatherback Turtle
*Emydidae*
Emys orbicularis - European Pond Turtle
Mauremys caspica - Caspian Pond Turtle
Mauremys leprosa - Mediterranean Pond Turtle

*SAURIA*
*Lacertidae*
Algyroides fitzingeri - Pygmy Algyroides
Algyroides marchi - Spanish Algyroides
Algyroides moreoticus - Greek Algyroides
Algyroides nigropunctatus - Dalmatian Algyroides
Gallotia atlantica - Canary Island Lizard
Gallotia galloti - Tenerife Lizard
Gallotia galloti insulanagae - Anaga Lizard
Gallotia simonyi - El Hierro Giant Lizard
Gallotia stehlini - Canary Island Lizard
Lacerta agilis - Sand Lizard (all subspecies)
Lacerta bedriagae - Bedriaga's Rock Lizard 
Lacerta bonnali (Lacerta monticola) - Pyrenean Rock Lizard
Lacerta monticola - Iberian Rock Lizard
Lacerta danfordi - Danford's Lizard
Lacerta dugesi - 
Lacerta graeca - Greek Rock Lizard
Lacerta horvathi - Horvath's Rock Lizard
Lacerta schreiberi - Iberian Emerald Lizard
Lacerta trilineata - Balkan Emerald Lizard
Lacerta viridis - European Green Lizard
Lacerta vivipara pannonica - Viviparous (common) Lizard 
Ophisops elegans - Snake-Eyed Lizard
Podarcis erhardii - Erhard's wall lizard
Podarcis filfolensis - Maltese Wall Lizard
Podarcis hispanica atrata 
Podarcis lilfordi - Balearic Lizard
Podarcis melisellensis - Dalmatian Wall Lizard
Podarcis milensis - Milos Wall Lizard
Podarcis muralis - Common Wall Lizard
Podarcis peloponnesiaca - Peloponnese Wall Lizard
Podarcis pityusensis - Ibiza Wall Lizard
Podarcis sicula - Italian Wall Lizard
Podarcis taurica - Balkan Wall Lizard
Podarcis tiliguerta - Tyrrhenian Wall Lizard
Podarcis wagleriana - Sicilian Wall Lizard
*Scincidae*
Ablepharus kitaibelli
Chalcides bedriagai - Bedriaga's Skink
Chalcides ocellatus - Eyed Skink
Chalcides sexlineatus - Gran Canaria Skink
Chalcides simonyi (Chalcides occidentalis) - Eastern Canary Skink
Chalcides viridianus 
Ophiomorus punctatissimus 
*Gekkonidae*
Cyrtopodion kotschyi - Kotschy's Gecko
Phyllodactylus europaeus - Leaf-Fingered Gecko
Tarentola angustimentalis - East Canary Gecko
Tarentola boettgeri - Gran Canaria Gecko
Tarentola delalandii - Tenerife Gecko
Tarentola gomerensis - La Gomera Gecko
*Agamidae*
Agama (Laudakia) stellio stellio - Starred Agama
*Chamaeleontidae*
Chamaeleo chamaeleon - Mediterranean Chameleon
*Anguidae*
Ophisaurus apodus - Sheltopusik / Giant European Glass Lizard

*OPHIDIA*
*Colubridae*
Coluber caspius - Large Whip Snake
Coluber cypriensis - Cyprus Whip Snake
Coluber hippocrepis - Horseshoe Whip Snake
Coluber jugularis - Black Whip Snake
Coluber laurenti
Coluber najadum - Dahl's Whip Snake
Coluber nummifer - Coin Marked Snake
Coluber viridiflavus - Western Whip Snake
Coronella austriaca - Smooth Snake
Eirenis modesta - Dwarf Snake
Elaphe longissima - Aesculapian Snake
Elaphe quatuorlineata - Four-Lined Snake
Elaphe situla - Leopard Rat Snake
Natrix natrix cetti - Grass Snake
Natrix natrix corsa - Grass Snake
Natrix natrix cypriaca - Grass Snake
Natrix tessellata - Dice Snake
Telescopus falax - European Cat Snake
*Viperidae*
Vipera ammodytes - Nose-Horned Viper
Macrovipera schweizeri (Vipera lebetina schweizeri) - Milos Viper
Vipera seoanni (except Spanish populations) - Seoane's Viper
Vipera ursinii - Meadow Viper 
Vipera xanthina - Ottoman Viper
*Boidae*
Eryx jaculus - Sand Boa


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## purejurrasic

You know, i have so far been lapse in this, I need to read up on it all and check out my Lacerta lepida as they dont seem to be on that list, but I am sure they are included in EPS.

thanks for the reminder !!


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## Ssthisto

Bumping this one up. Surely SOMEONE out there must have Eyed Skinks or Starred Agamas....


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## purejurrasic

mmmm, 

well, to be honest, I have registered on that site, and taken a look at the form, but bloody hell !!

references, activities, will the animal be rehome with anyone else, and who, when. 

If that is the correct form that any keeper of an EPS has to complete, I can see a huge problem looming !

Does anyone else have any info on this subject.

I guess its a case of working the way through the form, 9 pages long ! and hoping I understand it right and check the right boxes , but hell it almost seems as if its totally ignored the fact that these species are kept as simple pets with no research to be done or tagging or anything.


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## ratboy

purejurrasic said:


> Does anyone else have any info on this subject.


Chris Newman would be a good bet. He has listed this as one of the areas that the FBH are working on and he put up some interesting posts on the rat snake foundation site.


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## DeanThorpe

purejurrasic said:


> You know, i have so far been lapse in this, I need to read up on it all and check out my Lacerta lepida as they dont seem to be on that list, but I am sure they are included in EPS.
> 
> thanks for the reminder !!


hey.. can you let me know if they are... thanks, as i see lots of lacerta on the list but not lepida as you say.


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## Ssthisto

ratboy said:


> Chris Newman would be a good bet. He has listed this as one of the areas that the FBH are working on and he put up some interesting posts on the rat snake foundation site.


Whereabouts are these posts? I cannot seem to find them searching for either Chris's name nor for "European Species" or "EPS"....

And seeing as I do have a member of one of those species that I can't prove was captive bred, I'd really like to know what the current status is.


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## ratboy

I've PM'd you Ssthisto... not sure about putting links to other forums up here 

But the last post said they have been delayed. However, it may have been now that they had been delayed to... hence the reason I suggested asking him since DEFRA have never even officially said it was delayed.


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## This is my Clone

Oh, I used to have 2 Starred Agama's! I rescued them from a friend, and re-homed them. I'm still in touch with the person who has them now.

So he needs a license to keep them? What about the pet shop that sold them...are they in the wrong to do so?


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## SiUK

Its a step in the right direction in a way, it would be a positive image to the hobby for outsiders, its also a bad thing as well, fortunately I dont have any species on the list.


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## Ssthisto

You mean it's a positive image for outsiders that all of a sudden hobbyists are faced with a choice between:

*a)* Try to apply for a license for an animal that, according to the licensing, may not be POSSIBLE to license (i.e. WC animals that were imported from outside the EU - or legally imported before the ban - or never had specimen-specific paperwork proving they were legal) and have your name and address listed as an owner of these animals if you FAIL to obtain a license - and keep in mind you apparently need references who are in the reptile industry who know your work in order to get one... then your animals may well be subject to confiscation...
*b)* Decide that you don't think you can risk failing, so you'll try to hide the animals - but god forbid they need veterinary care...
*c)* Decide that you KNOW your animals will need vet care eventually, and that you can't risk failing on the license, so you take 'em to the vet for the Green Mile... and have them euthanised...
*d)* Decide that you don't like any of the other choices and try to sell 'em on - but whoops, that's illegal too without the license...
*e)* Decide you don't like any of the other choices, so you'll just set them free and hope for the best...

None of those sound like great options to me.


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## SiUK

the reason its a positve image to outsiders and antis is that its appearing to push out WC, which is a bone of contemption anyway, and a thing alot of people not in the hobby, norms and antis alike dont like.


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## Ssthisto

It doesn't just push out WC.

It pushes out the ability to keep ANY animal that is on the list without specimen-specific paperwork stating the animal was captive bred or legally obtained... which paperwork has NEVER been issued. Whether or not it was CB. There IS no paperwork available on these species. It hasn't been issued, it hasn't been written, and everyone who's had an animal for less than the last thirteen years cannot prove their animals are CB or legally obtained.

Si, this legislation means that some people can't keep their pets, whether or not they were CB; whether or not they were legally obtained from outside the EU.

I'm one of the people who is going to have to make one of those five choices. So are at least half a dozen other keepers I know of on this forum.


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## SiUK

:surrender:


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## ratboy

The idea behind the legislation is good Si... but as usual, they have gone about it totally the wrong way and it is up to the keeper to prove where their animals come from and where they were born.

This does not bode well for the future.

Who on this forum could prove that any of their animals are captive bred if asked to do so ?


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## Ssthisto

By the way, it looks like the legal requirements with regards to the EPS species came into effect on the 21st of August, according to this page:

Defra, UK - Wildlife and Countryside - European Union Birds and Habitats Directives

This appears to be the relevant license paperwork, as well:

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/publications/forms/wildlife/WML-A37.pdf

I know I don't have any documentation regarding MY EPS animal... we bought him from a private keeper and didn't even get a receipt.


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## purejurrasic

yeah, those are the urls i used. but that form....

like you say how can you prove a cb animal when the proof was never issued.

Also, i heard somewhere that offspring of WC is not classed as CB in the first generation, due to the fact that that offspring may well have been hatched in the wild and therefor the captivity of them could be seen as detrimental to wild stocks.

Also, our eyed was rehomed with us via our society from the rspca. they never kept any documents, nor did we, we took him in and gave hime the care he needed. end off.

What kind of references will we need to supply, professional ones or fellow keepers?

Your right, looks like we keepers are left with very little options, reading through that licence form there are not many who will fill it in and get the licence.

Once agian, a totally unworkable law, introduced by shallow minded do gooders who infact have consigned thousands of animals to an uncertain future.


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## Nerys

this does affect other species too.. for instance my council tell me i need to get my Kestrel and Saker done under this too...

N


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## Ssthisto

Well, if it comes right down to it... we have one animal who, because of his ongoing health issues will probably be euthanised simply because I can't prove that "keeping him in captivity is better than the alternatives."

Heck, the person I got this animal from got him from someone else, and goodness knows where the original import documents are. We might find something saying "X number such and such species" but it sure doesn't say that OUR animal is absolutely one of those.


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## Nerys

well i have registered, but where is the form on there? is it the top one?

i got these?

Application forms 









document.write ; Schedule 5 application Application for a licence to kill, take, disturb or possess any wild animal (excluding bats - see below) included in either schedule 5 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 or schedule 2 of the Conservation (natural habitats, &c.) Regulations 1994. 








document.write ; Badger application Application for a licence to interfere with badger setts for the purpose of development. 








document.write; Schedule 1 Birds/Science and Conservation Application for a licence to disturb birds listed in schedule 1 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 for the purposes of scientific research or conservation. 








document.write ; Schedule 1 Birds/Photography Application for a licence to disturb birds listed in schedule 1 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 for the purposes of photography. 








document.write ; Bat application Application for a licence to disturb, take or keep bats for the purposes of conservation, scientific research or education, including the option to apply for a bat roost visitor (conservation) licence. 

??????

N


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## SiUK

ratboy said:


> The idea behind the legislation is good Si... but as usual, they have gone about it totally the wrong way and it is up to the keeper to prove where their animals come from and where they were born.
> 
> This does not bode well for the future.
> 
> Who on this forum could prove that any of their animals are captive bred if asked to do so ?


yeh thats what I meant, I can see how listening to you guys though its unworkable


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## This is my Clone

I told my friend about this (the one with the Starred Agama's), and he rang UK-CITES.
He spoke to a lady called Maria Fabiani on 0117 372 8436.
She told him this does affect pet owners. It just affects the importers. You will be able to keep them as pets as normal. If you need confirmation please ring her, as this is 2nd hand info I am passing on.


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## SiUK

EddieLizzard said:


> I told my friend about this (the one with the Starred Agama's), and he rang UK-CITES.
> He spoke to a lady called Maria Fabiani on 0117 372 8436.
> She told him this does affect pet owners. It just affects the importers. You will be able to keep them as pets as normal. If you need confirmation please ring her, as this is 2nd hand info I am passing on.


thats interesting but it doesnt seem like what everyone else is saying, CITIES, is different to the europeon law though, theres animals on this new law that arent CITIES protected isnt there??


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## purejurrasic

i wont swear to it, but i think she is mistaken.


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## This is my Clone

Typo in my post, it was meant to say "doesn't" affect pet owners. Best thing to do is ring them. He got the phone number from one of the links on this thread...not sure which one.


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## purejurrasic

for sure its handy to have a name and number, will try calling in the morning. thanks


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## gaz

try madeleine casey on 0117 372 8170 both her and Maria are very competent at their jobs and always worth a chat to
regards gaz
ps:they are both at:
wildlife licensing and registration service
temple quay
bristol


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## Ssthisto

SiUK said:


> thats interesting but it doesnt seem like what everyone else is saying, CITIES, is different to the europeon law though, theres animals on this new law that arent CITIES protected isnt there??


That's right. The majority of the reptiles on the EPS list are not on CITES.

Onissarle has been doing some research that maybe means it isn't so bleak even if the EPS DOES affect pet keepers (and the implication from the licensing document is that it most certainly does affect anyone who wants to possess an animal on the list) - but I am having a hard time believing it. I'll leave it to him to post it, however.


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## Nerys

hon, which one do i need to be looking at? i cannot seem to work out which one!

N


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## Ssthisto

PM'ed you, Nerys.


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## DeanThorpe

ratboy said:


> The idea behind the legislation is good Si... but as usual, they have gone about it totally the wrong way and it is up to the keeper to prove where their animals come from and where they were born.
> 
> This does not bode well for the future.
> 
> Who on this forum could prove that any of their animals are captive bred if asked to do so ?


only the fijis..as they needed it [in advance, lol]
not a single one of the other reps.

what a stupid way these people do things eh?


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## Chris Newman

The EPS regulations are not directly related to EU CITES, the EPS only affects a very few species, whereas the EPS regulations affect a huge number of species kept. I am still working with DEFRA to try and resolve some of the issues surrounding the EPS regards and the licencing thereof. Unfortunately it is a very complicated issue and is going to take sometime to try and resolve.


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## ratboy

So in the meantime Chris, do we try and fill out these forms ? or wait ?


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## Chris Newman

You have raised a very valid question, and one to which I cannot give you an answer. This part of my ongoing battle with DEFRA to try and resolve this issue, below is a section from an email I sent them a couple of weeks ago:

It is deeply regrettable but I do not think Defra have the slightest 
concept of just how many reptile and amphibian keepers will be 
adversely affected by these regulations. A conservative estimate is 
that between 300,000 and 500,000 keepers hold specimens covered by 
Annex IV and the numbers of animals held will be significantly more 
than this. The overwhelming majority of these keepers will have no 
means to demonstrate that the specimens they hold were acquired 
lawfully, by default turning a significant percentage of the UK 
population into 'criminals' overnight by no fault of there own. This 
would appear to be persecution of animal keepers which is utterly 
intolerable. 

The majority of keepers will not have the ability to prove the animals they keep were acquired lawful as the species concerned were previously unregulated and no proof of legal acquisition exists. *Thus if you apply for the relevant licence keepers are exposing themselves to having there animals seized and or being prosecuted!!* I find this utterly, utterly intolerable position for keepers to be put in. 

This battle is ongoing and I determined to get a satisfactory resolution for keepers, what has been done is unfair and in my view unlawful. If we cannot resolve the issue in the UK then it will have to go to the European Courts, however, all of this takes time. So do I advise you to apply for licences! I can’t, this has to be a decision each keep will make themselves.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Well, Ive got eyed skinks which i saw on that list. So i went to apply for a licence, on the first page it said...



*Please use this application form if you wish to possess a European protected species or a derivative.​*Specimens lawfully obtained before the Regulations came into force on 10th June 1994 do not require a licence. A licence is required to possess any species listed on Annex IV of the Habitats Directive and not just those species that are native to Great Britain. *A licence is* *not required for any captive bred specimens.* ​


It doesnt say I have to prove they are captive bred, And no one can accuse me of having wild caught animals without having proof (innocent until proven guilty and all that) , which they wont have because they are definately captive bred. So i screwed it up and threw it in the bin. assuming that this was the correct form.. 

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/publications/forms/wildlife/WML-A37.pdf


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## Ssthisto

pink said:


> It doesnt say I have to prove they are captive bred, And no one can accuse me of having wild caught animals without having proof (innocent until proven guilty and all that) , which they wont have because they are definately captive bred. So i screwed it up and threw it in the bin. assuming that this was the correct form..
> 
> http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/publications/forms/wildlife/WML-A37.pdf


You're wrong there - it says specifically on DEFRA's site that ANY animal of an European Protected Species will be assumed to be wild caught inside the EU (i.e. illegal) UNLESS proven otherwise.

This is part of the problem with this new law - it's guilty until proven innocent should you be prosecuted.


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## Matt Harris

Ssthisto is right, there are instances in the WCA and Habs Regs, including the recent amendment, where the accused would have to prove that the specimens were legally obtained, captive bred etc. It's not up to the prosecution to prove this. In these instances, you are assumed guilty unless you can prove otherwise. Bit like being flashed by a speed camera - you are assumed to be driving, and therefore guilty, unless you can prove otherwise!


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## LFBP-NEIL

Ssthisto said:


> You're wrong there - it says specifically on DEFRA's site that ANY animal of an European Protected Species will be assumed to be wild caught inside the EU (i.e. illegal) UNLESS proven otherwise.
> 
> This is part of the problem with this new law - it's guilty until proven innocent should you be prosecuted.


can you post the link to that bit, havnt got time to search for it. What a crazy world we are living in!


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## LFBP-NEIL

I found it myself, heres the link for anyone else who wanted the info but couldnt find it like me. 

Defra, UK - Wildlife and Countryside - Habitats regulation Q&A - Possession and sale of EPS

It states...


> The requirement for the prosecution to prove the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt is a fundamental principle of English criminal law (the "presumption of innocence"). This requirement has a long and distinguished history and is now enshrined in the Human Rights Act 1998, article 6(2) of which reads: “Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be assumed innocent until proven guilty according to law.” Whilst the Act does not prohibit provisions which transfer the burden of proof onto the accused, such transfers must be confined within reasonable limits.


And...



> It should also be noted that the accused need only show the lawful origin of the specimen on the *balance of probabilities*, rather than to the prosecution’s standard of beyond reasonable doubt.


From wikipedia...



> Balance of probabilities
> Also known as the "preponderance of evidence", this is the standard required in most civil cases. The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50% chance that the proposition is true. Lord Denning in _Miller v. Minister of Pension_ described it simply as "more probable than not".


So we dont have to apply for a licence if the animal is captive bred or WC before this came into force 

But if we are facing prosecution for keeping a species we have to prove that it is more probably captive bred than not, which I suppose is better than having to prove beyond reasonable doubt as that would be virtually impossible.

I should imagine that anyone with any UK species would have a hard time with this, because any one could go out and catch a UK species and that is quite probable.

I should imagine anyone with a non uk species with out any sort of unnofficial documentation such as livestock diary, petshop receipt, name and address of the breeder would be 50/50 could go either way?

I imagine that anyone with a non uk species that is frequently offered for sale and can show a receipt or provide a name and address of store?, or provide the name and address of the breeder or has some of their own breeding records? would have a very good chance of being believed?

I think its good we only have to prove that its more probable than not, I think its bad we have to prove anything in the first place.

Its a shame we dont have a team of legal experts that could work on this.

Its a shame that these presumptions i have made will not be proven/disproven until one of us poor sods is taken to court.

If taken to court the only evidence i would have that my animals are captive bred would be a letter from the breeder. And the fact I have never visited their natural range. would this be enough to satisfy the court that on the balance of probabilities i guess only time will tell.


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## Ssthisto

pink said:


> If taken to court the only evidence i would have that my animals are captive bred would be a letter from the breeder. And the fact I have never visited their natural range. would this be enough to satisfy the court that on the balance of probabilities i guess only time will tell.


And what about those of us whose animals were probably WC - outside the EU - and who bought them from private sellers, who got them second-or-third-hand themselves?

That's where I am at. My two probably weren't bred in captivity, and I don't have any idea WHEN they came into the country let alone from WHERE... because I'm not the one who originally imported them, nor the one who bought them from the person who got them from the shop that found them on the list of the wholesaler(s) who did.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Its a crazy isnt it, i guess all you could do is provide the name and address of who you purchased from, going back further down the chain as as far as you can. And cross your fingers. its a very grey area.


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## ratboy

There is also the point that some species on that list occur both inside and outside of the EU ( Sorry if this is what you were getting at Ssthisto ... just labouring the point )

So it is legal to own a Wild Caught specimen of some species if you can prove it was not born inside the EU.


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