# My first dart frog build.



## Harbinger

Thought i would need my own progression thread 
As above, my first dart frog build. Initially it was going to be a 30x30x45 exo but found this nice 30x30x60 for £40 
A more comfortable size aswell, only problem is the lid is on the top, so working on the background is an awkward pain in the ass 

Here's the tank as it was.










Seeing as it was my first build, and i didnt want to obstruct floor space (plus i thought i would run out of materials) i decided to just do the back glass for now, here it is siliconed (i could only find clear). Been searching for the stuff for a while now and couldnt find a single shop which sold some safe stuff, all had mold inhibitors or other added stuff, even then i only managed to get 2 tubs of the stuff for £22. I know i could have got it online but thought the postage would be dear, should have just ordered some though -_-










Here's the final arrangement o bogwood a day later, wanted to make as many extra levels as i could increasing floor space, but none of the pieces i had were that wide. A couple of pieces had almost perfect dish shapes for pools though, so i tried to make the whole layout a kinda zig zag ladder with ledges, although i doubt i'll ever see them up there, gives anchorage to the plants at least.










And foamed, it almost completely engulfed the wood so i scooped some bits out whilst it was still soft, although that took too much off in places so i had to add more.










It was rock hard by the afternoon so i started carving it, have been this morning aswell. This is what i have so far.










Its a bit rough and flaky in places as you can see on this next close up. Does it need to be perfectly cleanly smooth before adding the next layer of silicone? Here's a slight close up of the texture, and you can see the slight ledges a bit.


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## plasma234

Looks great. I didn't have the confidence to do a 3 back on my first tank. Props for that. 


If you need silicone in the future, eBay had some aquarium safe stuff for £3. That isn't to rub it in. :lol2:


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## Meefloaf

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bond-It-Adh...8&qid=1366555266&sr=8-1&keywords=ha6+silicone


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## Harbinger

Bollux:cussing:

Ah well, at least its done now, gonna post some more photo's in a bit, been putting the fibre on this afternnon.
Its another pain in the ass, been putting the silicone on thick, but the fibre hasnt been stick so well in some places, i think its mostly ok though.

Its a bit thin though.


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## Meefloaf

i've had fun with expanding foam today


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## Harbinger

Well i think its going ok.


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## Liam Yule

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Well i think its going ok.
> 
> image
> 
> image


Looks great mate keep it up! Should be looking even better once you get some plants in there


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## marc26

Looking good keep us updated on final outcome,


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## ronnyjodes

Any particular reason you put clear silicone on the glass before you did the foam? The foam will stick fine to the glass on it's own, the only benefit of siliconing first is if you put black silicone down so you don't have to see that lovely rancid yellow colour when you turn your tank around.

Also, next time, unless you've got a built in false bottom like on an ENT tank don't do the background all the way to the base. The point of having weed membrane between the leca and the substrate is so you don't get substrate in your drainage layer. As it stands you're probably going to get bits of coco fibre in your drainage coming off of the couple inches of background you'll have below the substrate level. It's not a huge problem but one worth considering in the future.

Other than that it's looking good :2thumb:


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## Liam Yule

ronnyjodes said:


> Any particular reason you put clear silicone on the glass before you did the foam? The foam will stick fine to the glass on it's own, the only benefit of siliconing first is if you put black silicone down so you don't have to see that lovely rancid yellow colour when you turn your tank around.
> 
> Also, next time, unless you've got a built in false bottom like on an ENT tank don't do the background all the way to the base. The point of having weed membrane between the leca and the substrate is so you don't get substrate in your drainage layer. As it stands you're probably going to get bits of coco fibre in your drainage coming off of the couple inches of background you'll have below the substrate level. It's not a huge problem but one worth considering in the future.
> 
> Other than that it's looking good :2thumb:


You made a good point... Which i didnt even notice. I Actually did silicone all the way to the bottom... (like you said...just so you couldnt see a space and it looked nice) But I put in my false bottom in and the membrane layer before foaming/earthing the walls. 

I do get little amounts of substrate in my drainage falling through the membrane but its little amounts (i know this cos i pulled my viv off the cabinet and looked underneath...dont ask why!

But you might find that your earthing will peel off the foam if its constantly submerged in water which will be stuck in your drainage layer


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## fatlad69

Once you work out how high the drainage layer is silicone over the background to that level then you won't have a problem.

Adam


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## Harbinger

Thanks for the help, i read a few times that without silicone the expanding foam would peel off in a few weeks :/
It didnt waste too much at least. And yeah i hadnt thought about the background reaching the bottom, i'll see how much i can trim off.

The advice is appreciated, seeing as i have still got 3 complete bags of treen fern fibre and some silicone left i had planned to make another background for when i get my Megophrys nasuta housed.


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## Meefloaf

problem i had, today looked at my expanding foam and one side had shrunk but away from the siliconed glass, going to spray a lil water in and some more foam and hopefully it'll take


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## Harbinger

Well i managed to pretty cleanly cut 3-4 inches off the bottom. Going to add some more fern fibre to patchy area's and then silicone the edging i just cut. Next step is to get some branches. I was thinking of getting some from dart frog, but i take it ordering from online you cant see the wood before hand and see if you like it :/


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## Meefloaf

you could always email them and ask if they could send you some pics, i bought the sumba veined vine from them and they are stunning. had a bit of an issue with i ordered a xs bamboo jungle gym for 8.99 and got sent a bamboo branch worth 5.79, but they refunded me the difference and emailed real quick


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## Harbinger

Ta, will give it a try. Once its all cured and the woods in place it should be ready for planting right?
Not forgetting the drainage and substrate, but it feels like im forgetting something.


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## Harbinger

Still no branches yet, was going to order from dartfrog, but then thought chunks of woods gonna put the postage up, might aswell get some from pet shops, i want something thats interesting to look at, helps the frogs up, and gives anchorage for the plants.

I kinda rushed into buying some plants, i needed some fruit flies for my mantids so i had to ordered from them anyway, so thought i might aswell get a few bits and pieces, got some magnolia leaf litter and a hydro fleece, also ordered some small broms. Plan to get some orchids and mosses soon, and some creepers.

_
Neo.ampullacea 
Neo.ampullacea tigrina offset 
Vriesea duvaliana_

Should i still expect to see wild plants growing from the tree fern background?
When i got them the bags were left in the car over night, and since i glued them its sat outside in the cold for 3 days for the silicone to cure.


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## Meefloaf

get the Sumba Veined vines, they are gorgeous, seriously, as for delivery, cost me £15 for it courier if i had gone royal mail wouldve cost me £27


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## Wolfenrook

If you want THE most attractive wood you are going to find, try Nature Aquarium Superstore for Fish Tank & Tropical Aquatic Plants Supplies | Aquatics, Aquascaping, Nature Aquarium & Hydroponics Specialists. You will pay for it to be sure, but it will be the EXACT piece you chose. They do some HUGE redmoor roots for about the £60 mark. I have a massive one in my planted aquarium from there:-










Cost me £65. Putting the size into perspective though, that tank is 71cm wide......

Ade


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## Ron Magpie

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Should i still expect to see wild plants growing from the tree fern background?
> When i got them the bags were left in the car over night, and since i glued them its sat outside in the cold for 3 days for the silicone to cure.


I've never used it myself (sustainability issues; although I'm told most tree fern now available in the trade is from renewable sources), but everyone I have spoken to who *has* used it has reported moss and fern growth from spores that somehow survive drying, freezing, transport and storage.


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## soundstounite

ronnyjodes said:


> Any particular reason you put clear silicone on the glass before you did the foam? The foam will stick fine to the glass on it's own, the only benefit of siliconing first is if you put black silicone down so you don't have to see that lovely rancid yellow colour when you turn your tank around.
> 
> Also, next time, unless you've got a built in false bottom like on an ENT tank don't do the background all the way to the base. The point of having weed membrane between the leca and the substrate is so you don't get substrate in your drainage layer. As it stands you're probably going to get bits of coco fibre in your drainage coming off of the couple inches of background you'll have below the substrate level. It's not a huge problem but one worth considering in the future.
> 
> Other than that it's looking good :2thumb:


Hey Ronny, with regards to your first paragraph,I think the ability for the foam to grab to glass might be brand dependent,I'm not 100% on this ,but pretty close.I make some foam planters here and there,I actually make them on glass and then pop them off with a paint scrapper clean as ya like.Me I'm always going to be up for a thin coat of silicone first,I totally agree with your points about the black though.Then,once that's cured it's really important to have a hand mister present when using the foam,mist before applying and after foaming has finished.One can also mold the foam by hand(wear gloves) as it cures saves all the carving lark,plus preserves that harder crust on the foam.


Last up for all foam new guys,please wear eye protection when using this stuff,I got caught using a gun,actually the cleaner got me,becuase I had finished taken off specs and the gun was still pressurised. Look acetone(the cleaner) sticks your eyes to your eyelids burns like :censor: and i've used this gear for probably 20plus years,I don't even want to contemplate how pleasant it is having foam removed from ones eye's.Be safe here I really am very careful and have used expanding foam for years,damned if a want to meet a phib keeper who can't see because of this stuff,please ponder this,how many of us actually protect their sight when making a background

seeya

Stu


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## Harbinger

Dont think i'll bother with tree fern much then unless its from a renewable source. And that sounds nasty about the foam, will have to be careful, luckily i only got my hands foamed together lol.

Anyway had a look in the nearest pet shop today and got two decent sized pieces of bog wood with plenty of curves and crevaces for plants and climbing. Just have to wait for my stuff from dartfrog to come now, ordered one of them hydro fleeces from there.

One think that is bothering me though is silicone smudges all over the glass, i've scraped as much as i can off with a stanley blade though. But no matter how hard or flat i press it its just smudging the patches around, its really greasy. Anything i can use to get that off?


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## fatlad69

Just let the silicone dry then it will be easier. You can also try vinegar or lemon juice to clean the glass.

Adam


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## Ron Magpie

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Dont think i'll bother with tree fern much then unless its from a renewable source. And that sounds nasty about the foam, will have to be careful, luckily i only got my hands foamed together lol.


If you've already got it, you might as well use it- you can't exactly put it back on the fern...:whistling2:

Much as I admire the dramatic landscapes people produce on here, I really can't be faffed with complicated backgrounds- in a lot of my tanks I just use coloured paper or a printed sheet taped to the outside. For my treefrogs, especially, this works well- they really prefer to roost on smooth glass. The other consideration for me is the 'K.I.S.S.' principle; Keep It Simple, Stupid! Not only do complicated features take up valuable space and can even make access difficult, *one day* the tank will be broken down and re-used for another animal or group of animals- do I really want to have to rip all of this stuff out?


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## Wolfenrook

Stop worrying, soft tree fern is fine. It's the hard black stuff you should avoid.

Ade


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## Harbinger

Got some supplies today, and my first plants. One thing i forgot to consider, how to attach the plants to the wood. Anyone got tips for that before i go and find out? Cleaned the silicone off, waited for it to dry as much as it could but just rubbing it very hard got most of it off. As soon as i cleaned the glass i put the hydroballs in.










Hydrofleece added to separate the drainage layers. 










Added the subsrate next, coco fibre and the rest of my tree fern fibre mixed in.










Bogwooded added, might get some more, got these nice pieces for just £12.










Got some cleaned magnolia leaves added, also tested the lighting out. Its an exo terra hood for a 30x30x45 verticle tank, which luckily enough is exactly the same size as this tank, need to make something to hold it in place though, it just sits on their loose.










And just a mock up with my plants, need to get a few more, some climbers and orchids hopefully


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## Meefloaf

looks great, cant wait to see it with more plants and inhabitants


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## plasma234

i just read through this, but else where. Great job.


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## ronnyjodes

I like the minimal look, it suits that tank really well. Maybe get some fittonia and some ferns in there, they tend to pad out spaces really well and can be good for a bit of colour and for ground cover.

What darts were you looking to put in there?


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## Liam Yule

Looks sweet:2thumb:.

Seriously grinds my gears when people find awesome bits of bog wood like that :lol2:


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## Harbinger

Haha yeah it was a pain in the ass to get that wood. They were the only 2 pieces that didnt have massive unnatural looking clean cut sawblade marks down the one half.



ronnyjodes said:


> I like the minimal look, it suits that tank really well. Maybe get some fittonia and some ferns in there, they tend to pad out spaces really well and can be good for a bit of colour and for ground cover.
> 
> What darts were you looking to put in there?


Looking at thumbnail species going by reccomnedations based on the viv size, unless there are other species that would be comfortable in there?
From what i've read and been told though just a couple of_ Ranitomeya sp._

And yeah, i want to get it nice and planted to provide the frogs with ample cover and extra space, but i dont want it to look overcrowded. Deffiniatly going to get some creepers and orchids at least, only a couple more. As for ferns what about something like this?

LIVE TERRARIUM PLANT - Hemionitis arifolia (Heart Fern) Medium | eBay

As for the more normal looking fern whats a good small species?


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## Meefloaf

what about this LIVE TERRARIUM PLANT - Mimosa pudica (Sensitive Plant) 6cm pot | eBay


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## Harbinger

I thought the moving leaves would be too distracting


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## Harbinger

What are _Marcgravia _sp. like?
I like the tropical look of them, will they do for a small viv like this?


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## Harbinger

I _think_ this is all i need now.



> Tropical grey woodlice starter culture £4.99
> Drosophila-melanogaster-Starter-Culture £2.75
> Seira-Starter-Culture £3.99
> Guatemala Marcgravia £3.99
> Savu seed pod medium x 3 £7.99
> Paranut-shell
> £5.98 Phaelonopsis Mini Mark 9£11.99
> Asplenium nidus £4.99
> Epiweb Moss Mix 30g bag £9.95


Wanted an orchid to fill that top right space, and something bushy like that fern for the bottom right which is the emptiest space. Got some seed pods for pools to be scattered on the floor, and some clean up crew (its burst into mould already). And im hoping to get some of that moss mix growing in the blank area's. There should be some growth from the tree fern panels spores already shouldnt there?
How long does that take usually?


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## Wolfenrook

At the least triple your mels, and also add 3 cultures of hydei too. It pays to get plenty of both, as if you just order one and it crashes, you're stuffed before you can even start culturing as they aren't always producing when you get them.

The Seira, I'd recommend a mega pack rather than starter culture. You get far more in them.

Regarding how long it takes moss to sprout from tree fern panels, anything from 3 months to never happens, all depends upon conditions been favourable. If you don't want to wait, seed it with some mixed moss slurry. The Epiweb moss mix is rather an expensive way of doing it to be honest, and doesn't always take.

There are quite a few different marcgravia, some have heart shaped leaves, others elongated leaves etc. All are nice plants, and are fine in small or large vivs. Just prune them if they grow into where you don't want them.

Ade


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## FelixM

looks nice! i think you were fortunate to get a tank like that for £40...hoping to try to persuade parents for some darts myself and this is inspiration!


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## Harbinger

Thanks for the advice, i'll add another culture of mel's, i've already got 4-5 cultures here ready, needed them for a mantid crisis. And will do that about the spring tails then.


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## Wolfenrook

If you already have some, not such an issue. 

Oh and a tip a certain Stu often repeats. When ordering springs, consider how many you think you need, then triple that. lol Thumbnail species especially enjoy springs even as adults.

Ade


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## Harbinger

I dont think i'll get the frogs for a bit of a while yet. Im off on holiday soon so it might be better to get them after. Springtails might have time to establish themselves more aswell.


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## Wolfenrook

Aye, make sure to culture some outside the viv too. 

Oh and it helps them to get established if you chuck a bit of fish flake in there until you put frogs in.

Ade


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## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> If you already have some, not such an issue.
> 
> Oh and a tip a certain Stu often repeats. When ordering springs, consider how many you think you need, then triple that. lol Thumbnail species especially enjoy springs even as adults.
> 
> Ade


:lol2: your right mate that's exactly the kind of thing I'd say:2thumb: I'd probably mutter something about buying a culture and splitting it too regarding springtails and woodlice.But don't split the tropical woods into too big a container at first,they need to be at a certain density to be able to find each other to make more little woodlice. As far as the springtails go when your back from holidays it may well be worth setting up a charcoal culture from one of the starters,once the charcoal is set in a big tub place the starter(lid off) on top of the charcoal and feed the charcoal,not the starter:the springs will simply migrate to the food. Get it right and one can start sevaral big charcoal cultures from one good starter,mind it needs to be a good starter and free of mites

Stu


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## Harbinger

Thanks for the info 
Got my order today, just finishing the tank now. Unfortunately it looks like i have 2 woodlice :/
Tonnes of springtails though, and the biggest brom from my last order i think is rotten. When i got it the base looked rotten and it had no roots, whilst rearranging just now i saw that its basically a bunch of leaves wraped together, nothing to it if you know what i mean. Otherwise it looks perfectly healthy, could it recover?
The narrowest brom just needed a bit of wedging and its pretty secure in a perfect crevice without much force, as for the top right brom i wraped some nylon from the thread of a carpet around it :roll:
I may have brought one too many plants though cause i havent figured out where im going to put the orchid yet


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## Harbinger

Aaaaaaand done, at last.
Since i got home from work been prodding about here and the tucking everything into place. Im sorta happy with is, the bogwood its still a tiny bit wobbly, not enough that it could harm any frogs or fall over, just in an irritating sorta way, and that one bromeliad thats doesnt sit still >_<
Just smeared the epiweb moss mix over the barren patches, i heard it was best put on clumpily rather than thinly, any spare bits i had i put on the bogwood, fingers crossed. I put the seed and nut pods in, im still unsure what species im getting exactly so i put them in at various angles, those paranut shells were a lot bigger than i though, there's one at the front right corner and one at the back let under the bog wood, do thumbnails use those?

Here's the plants i used.










And here's the viv done.


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## paul3col

Cracking looking set up well done:2thumb:


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## Harbinger

Thanks 
Would it be ok to put a mantis in there for a bit?
Or would it make to much mess and mess around the set up?
Could you explan charcoal cultures a bit more aswell?
Hadnt heard that phrase before.


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## Lucy1980

Thats really beautiful!


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## Ron Magpie

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Thanks
> Would it be ok to put a mantis in there for a bit?
> Or would it make to much mess and mess around the set up?
> Could you explan charcoal cultures a bit more aswell?
> Hadnt heard that phrase before.


A mantis shouldn't do any harm- and it's droppings will get recycled. Just don't forget to take it out before you put the frogs in! :gasp:

Stu or LukeLondon are the best people to talk to about charcoal cultures, but as I understand it the idea is to have medium-size chunks of charcoal in a tub that is part-flooded, to keep it all nice and wet. The springs hang aound on the wet charcoal sticking out, and the surface of the water (I'm guessing we are only taking an inch or so of water depth). I know Stu likes to feed his springs with yeast scattered on the charcoal, but for real detail, as I said, talk to him or Luke.


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## Harbinger

Weird, i thought it was a phrase, not an actual piece of charcoal lol.


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## soundstounite

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Weird, i thought it was a phrase, not an actual piece of charcoal lol.


thanks Ron
Des because you made me laugh i've done your homework for ya:2thumb:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-188.html
permalink 1878 i believe

godadmmit tis hard finding stuff in there:lol2:
Stu


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## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> thanks Ron
> Des because you made me laugh i've done your homework for ya:2thumb:
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/589598-da-dart-room-n-shed-188.html
> permalink 1878 i believe
> 
> *godadmmit tis hard finding stuff in there*:lol2:
> Stu


You're telling me! :lol2:

Glad to see that what I remembered was more or less accurate, although not exactly detailed.


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## Meefloaf

i wanted to read it, i really did, but the shear number of pages made me baulk


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## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> You're telling me! :lol2:
> 
> Glad to see that what I remembered was more or less accurate, although not exactly detailed.


Ha tis a bugger isn't it Ron,it took me about 1/2 an hour to find and I put the ruddy thing there:blush: the method is sound though Ron,it has had to be :2thumb:

Stu.


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## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> i wanted to read it, i really did, but the shear number of pages made me baulk


:lol2::lol2::lol2:

Stu


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## Harbinger

Thanks for the links, will have to boost the woodlice numbers before releasing them. I ended up pouring a bit more springtails in there. The mould is getting ridiculous. I knew it would be bad, i was especting a bit of white fluff here and there, everything is coated white/blue fur and lumps, and i mean _everywhere_ apart from living leaves.


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## Harbinger

Just ordered some more climbers to fill in the blanks and grow up the bogwood, also a replacement for the tigrina brom that died. Some pieces of moss and another kinda of licheny/moss type thing have been growing on the background.

Holiday in a week, assuming i survive the flights im hoping to get the darts soon after.


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## Liam Yule

Looking forward to seeing an update mate. I hope you have a pod holiday. I'm sure I could read through this to find this but ... I'm lazy. What frogs have you finally decided on? 

Liam


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## Harbinger

Hahah no specific species yet, but some kinda thumbnail _Ranitomeya_ given the size.


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## Harbinger

Really liking the fast and neat service from Dartfrog, got the plants today. Got another bunch of magnolia leaf litter, proper forest like in there now 
Thought i ordered 3 climbers but got 4, all a different species. One is the same as the other two in there, i wraped it around the base of the bog wood hoping to grow around it. The other is a Liana which is exactly what i wanted, put it in the middle hoping it would go up and out. Not sure what the other two are, put one in the top right which was barren and dry, moss didnt grow there so im just gonna focus up there and hope it fills the gap. There was also a patch of moss mix in the shade of the bog wood which didnt grow, put the slightly furry climber there. Ordered the wrong bromeliad, its the same as the one that was stuck to the back, a lot bigger though and looks better 

One thing i think i forgot though, you'r supposed to put film cannisters in the nut pods arent you?
Just emptied one the other day, it had gotten real mouldy inside and gradually flooded, resulting in a thick soup :/


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## Meefloaf

pics pics pics :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook

I don't bother putting film cannisters in pods very often, I just put them in for frogs to use as cover.

Liana/Margravia is a shingling climber by the way, it wont grow as a bush. It's best planted close to a backround or some wood or something so that it can grow attached to it.

Ade


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## Meefloaf

would the macgravia survive milk frogs ?


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## Wolfenrook

Hmmm, possibly as it usually grows flat to a surface (shingling as the folks over the pond call it). Mature stems are quite woody too.

Ade


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## Meefloaf

i was thinking of using it at the back to cover it. the others i'm looking at whilst having big leaves, grow far-ish apart


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## Harbinger

Dont you have problems with mold without a canister lining it?
Springtails are swarming over all the tank now so i thought it would have gone by now, its only the nuts that are still moldy.

And yeah i've put all the climbers against something, i didnt know much about plants but those ones with leaves flat to the surface was what i wanted most, looked the most exotic in my opinion 
And yeah will get pics in a bit. Cant wait to get some frogs once its ready.

Need to get a thermometer and hygrometer to see what the temps are like, felt pretty hot in there just now which is worrying. Still got to sort the venitalion out, its just a few slits on the top of the viv, big enough for fruit flies to get out. But im worried its too small for ventilation for the frogs.


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## Harbinger

PICS!

Whole shot of the tank.










Close up.










Top half of the tank showing the new climbers and brom.










Bottom half of the tank showing the other 2 new climbers. Doesnt look really 3D in this image but that bogwood really sticks out, a nice spacy gap underneath there with another one of the large paranuts underneath.










And some moss and stuff groing. Firstly the epiweb moss mix, just the two things so far, the flat lichen looking stuff and the typical looking kinda moss strands.










And a cluster of other licheny looking bits, different from the epiweb stuff though, this was growing in the treen fern backing.


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## Harbinger

Going home tomorrow from holiday, can finally aim to get sone darts  Just need to sort livefood out, maybe take out a glass strip on the top and replace with mesh, and fill the pods with canisters, and hope my nan remembered to water it whilst i was away...


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## Wolfenrook

What's mould? lol Never get it, too many springs and dwarf woodlice in my vivs. 

Oh and the flat licheny stuff is baby ferns.  That's how they first grow. Looks like a liverwort for ages, then WHAM, fern. lol

Ade


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## Harbinger

Never knew that about the ferns, and one of them has just sprouted aswell by the looks of it 
There are spring tails over every surface but the nut pods are still showing mould :/
Need to get something to monitor the temps and humidity then i can see if its habitable yet.


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## Harbinger

Ordering some extra springtails and some woodlice, plus a lot of fruit flies.
Do i need dart frog specific vitimans to dust their food or will generic frog supplements i use for my Megophrys and pacman do?

Guess all there is to do now is get the frogs


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## Wolfenrook

I can see from the glass and plant leaves that the humidity is very high. Unless you had misted within one hour you may want to reduce your misting slightly to ensure the plants don't stay wet.

Regarding supplements, Repashy Calcium Plus all the way! Once you start breeding your frogs you may also want to add in a tiny amount of Repashy Supervit A about once a month at the maximum. Since Allen formulated the calcium plus dart breeders have had far fewer instances of SLS etc than before switching to it. Everybody I know who has tried it now swears by it and it alone.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie

Looking good- loving the fact that you've got fern prothallus' growing- those are the 'lichen' things. Vitamin-wise, a lot of people swear by the Repashy stuff- I've never used it, but it's supposed to be good.


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## Harbinger

Will look into that Repashy then, and yeah i sprayed before the photo's just to get it to show up better. How often should i dust with the Repashy Calcium Plus then?
And yeah those ferns are showing up all over the tank now


----------



## Wolfenrook

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Will look into that Repashy then, and yeah i sprayed before the photo's just to get it to show up better. How often should i dust with the Repashy Calcium Plus then?
> And yeah those ferns are showing up all over the tank now


Every single feed. Unlike old style supplements it's formulated to be used at every meal. : victory: No rotating, no faffing, simple.:2thumb:

Ade


----------



## Ron Magpie

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Will look into that Repashy then, and yeah i sprayed before the photo's just to get it to show up better. How often should i dust with the Repashy Calcium Plus then?
> And yeah those ferns are showing up all over the tank now


For most of my frogs I dust once or twice a week- but I generally use Nutrobal. The Repashy should come with instructions, I hope.
It's great when plants grow 'spontaneously' in a viv- sometimes they can look too planned and tidy, otherwise. I like the natural look. :2thumb:


----------



## Harbinger

Will buy the big tub then 
Has anyone brought actual dart frogs from Dart frog before?
There shop is only an hour away from me apparantly according to google maps. Can you just walk in and browse the frogs or do you have to arrange it before hand?


----------



## Harbinger

Bugger there closed tomorrow, just read the details anyway, best to contact them. Hopefully there's a chance of picking some up next saturday 
A whole week of work waiting is gonna be unbearable >_<


----------



## Wolfenrook

I've bought from Marc in the past. You can just walk in and look around.

Slow down your rush though bud, you've only just set your viv up. I take it you already have culturing fruit flies etc down, and have lots of cultures all set up and ready to go? You need to before you even think about buying frogs. 

Heck, you could always come along to BAKS in September even, and see what frogs are there. Bet you that you'll get a good deal too. 

Ade


----------



## Harbinger

Yeah, i keep small mantids and my fruit fly cultures did a lot better than i thought they would over my holiday, got tonnes of them left. That order i was going to get of springtails i might aswell just collect with the frogs. Still got some spare back here and they are flourishing in the tank.

How long should a tank be left before darts then?


----------



## buddah

I dont think there is any set time to leave your viv to grow in, but me personally i left mine nearly 3 weeks. I waited for them to go mouldy and then as soon as all the mould went thats when i put the inhabitants in.


----------



## ronnyjodes

My new display tank in my front room has been growing in for around 3 months. This was to give the custodians time to settle in and breed, for the plants to establish, for me to figure out what worked and what didn't, move a few bits and pieces around, add moss, leaves and more plants. I'm now just about ready to put frogs in although I'm looking at adding 2 or 3 more large broms, some small airplants on the wood I have in there and some Spanish moss. 

The other reason I've left it til now to grow in is because it's the BAKS meet in September


----------



## Harbinger

Wouldnt mind adding more plants but think i've reached the limit havent i?
Wont ever see the frogs else or have enough room for the ones thats in there to grow. Where is this BAKs show?
Sounds real good but i doubt it will be close enough.


----------



## ronnyjodes

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Wouldnt mind adding more plants but think i've reached the limit havent i?
> Wont ever see the frogs else or have enough room for the ones thats in there to grow. Where is this BAKs show?
> Sounds real good but i doubt it will be close enough.


Possibly. If it was my tank I'd have more ground plants in such as fittonia but that's only because that's my particular style. In smaller tanks I use clumps here and there and then have ficus trailing accross the floor. My new viv is 60x45x45 so the first thing I did was put in my woodwork and plants towards the back, some foliage, some ferns and 2 broms. Once I'd spent a week looking at it I'd decided what else I'd like in as ground cover and added a couple of colourful feature plants towards the front. In that time a brom died and a fern went brown so I had the opportunity to tinker with those without stressing any inhabitants. Also my springtails have boomed and Ive added a ton more leaves so there's a nice layer of partially rotten ones for the springs and woods and a few nice layers on top for the frogs.

Learn from our mistakes- you will want to put frogs in as soon as possible, it's exciting, we know and there's nothing wrong with that. With any build but with a first build in particular you will notice things you wished were different, wished plants were in a different place, something will peg it. It pays to leave it alone for as long as possible so you know everything is spot on before your frogs go in and you don't have to worry about stressing them.

As for BAKS it's in Cannock, Staffordshire. There's folks coming from all over the country to be there so you could potentially even pinch a lift. It was ace last time, loads of top breeders, a relaxed atmosphere so you could just chat freely to folk without anybody barging past to get to tables and Ade had a captive audience (not with chains or anything) for his planted viv demonstration.


----------



## Harbinger

Hmm, well im in crappy Gloucester so it might take awhile, i just checked it on google but its playing up with the estimated times of arrival. When in September is it? 
Dont think there's enough room on the ground, there's a big paranut in two corners and a fern in the other with leaf litter in between.
And Fittonia looks naff


----------



## Wolfenrook

It's on 22nd September, starts at 1:30pm. DMS-Vivs is in gloucester too, he'll be having a table at BAKS.  Takes about 1 hour 45 minutes or so usually from Gloucestor to Wolverhampton, Cannock isn't that much further.

Fittonia only looks naff if a) you actually have polka dot plant from a garden center or b) you plant it in the wrong place. lol I use both plants quite regularly.

Ade


----------



## ronnyjodes

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Hmm, well im in crappy Gloucester so it might take awhile, i just checked it on google but its playing up with the estimated times of arrival. When in September is it?
> Dont think there's enough room on the ground, there's a big paranut in two corners and a fern in the other with leaf litter in between.
> And Fittonia looks naff


It's on the 22nd and well worth the trip.

As I say, you've probably got enough plants in but not enough ground cover for my taste. Also the climbers you've got haven't had time to establish so it still looks a bit sparse. Also because you've only got a top opening and not a big one at that, you're going to knock something and potentially cause damage by fiddling at the bottom of the tank so you may as well leave it alone and try something different next time around.

As for fittonia, it's personal taste although they come in a few different colours, they're hardy and spread like mad. They're a staple of mine because I've got a couple of different colours of the same plant in one viv but it looks totally different and creates a nice effect. Plus as you've got bugger all ground coverage in your tank if you go for a shy frog you're less likely to see them as they'll be hiding in the dark at the back. Generally the more cover your frogs have the bolder they are as they'll feel safer blending in to plants than sitting in the open on a leaf. My auratus will now happily sit in the open on green and pink and green and white fittonia as they're pretty well camouflaged. If those plants weren't there I'd probably still have not seen them. Again, this is stuff you'll learn as you go along.....


----------



## Harbinger

Meh, every time i googled Fittonia it looks to vibrant for me like a fake plant, even though its real 
And i didnt know that, they do good vivs aswell dont they?
As i said im cutting down on bugs so hopefully i have enough room for a big tank for more darts.


----------



## ronnyjodes

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Meh, every time i googled Fittonia it looks to vibrant for me like a fake plant, even though its real
> And i didnt know that, they do good vivs aswell dont they?
> As i said im cutting down on bugs so hopefully i have enough room for a big tank for more darts.


BAKS now actually allows the sale of inverts too so you could get a table, sell some of your bugs and use the proceeds to buy a nice tank at the meeting. The circle of life is complete.


----------



## Wolfenrook

ronnyjodes said:


> BAKS now actually allows the sale of inverts too so you could get a table, sell some of your bugs and use the proceeds to buy a nice tank at the meeting. The circle of life is complete.


So very very true... In fact, dun dun dunnnnn, we have some invert sellers booked already this time around.: victory:

The problem with a lot of pics on Google, the folks who took them played around with lighting levels etc in photoshop.  It is vibrant yes, but not artificially so imho. I think this is the only viv in which it stands out a lot:-










I've actually pruned and replanted it since I took that pic. That's the white and the red, along with a lovely pink cryptanthus. :lol2:

Oh and yeah, DMS-Vivs are pretty good. He delivers for £20 to anywhere in the country too, although in your case you might be able to work something out with him been so close. :lol2:

I was actually looking at an old invert classified of yours on another forum the other day thinking "hmmmm, wonder if he still breeds them?". :lol2:

Ade


----------



## ronnyjodes

Wolfenrook said:


> So very very true... In fact, dun dun dunnnnn, we have some invert sellers booked already this time around.: victory:
> 
> The problem with a lot of pics on Google, the folks who took them played around with lighting levels etc in photoshop.  It is vibrant yes, but not artificially so imho. I think this is the only viv in which it stands out a lot:-
> 
> image
> 
> I've actually pruned and replanted it since I took that pic. That's the white and the red, along with a lovely pink cryptanthus. :lol2:
> 
> Oh and yeah, DMS-Vivs are pretty good. He delivers for £20 to anywhere in the country too, although in your case you might be able to work something out with him been so close. :lol2:
> 
> I was actually looking at an old invert classified of yours on another forum the other day thinking "hmmmm, wonder if he still breeds them?". :lol2:
> 
> Ade


My green and white fittonia has done the same as yours- it's gone mental all over the side of one of my vivs haha.

We must think the same Ade, I was admiring his carnivorous katydids the other day. I used to keep mantiseses too, wouldn't mind another actually, they were great


----------



## Wolfenrook

I LOVE katydids and would love to keep them one day. Not to mention various phasmids, orchid mantids......... One day we WILL put our 45cm x45cm x 60cm net viv to use again.

Ade


----------



## Harbinger

Haha well i might have a couple of things later, fancy phasmids and some smaller katydids. I lost a few of the carnivorous katydids though, not sure if it was the heatwave we had or something with their food. With my malaysian katydids i planet a whole privet hedge in their enclosure for them to lay in, after i swilled it off and let it to drain long enough for the pesticides or so i though, lost them all in a couple of nights :/
Fortunately i've had better luck with phasmids and Costa Rican katydids.
Not sure if i can spare any now but the bark mantids i bred are doing great, come next generation i should have a load 

As for the plants i think i just prefer vibrant greenery over red shades


----------



## Wolfenrook

You HAVE to come to BAKS bud, and bring some of your critters along! 

Ade


----------



## Harbinger

Well i might have Diesbachia tamyris, Pseudophasma lakini, Orestes mouhotii, and maybe some eggs of Hermagoras cultratolobatus is that spikes anyones interest 

Do you have to be a member to go the show?
Looking again it is pretty far away :/


----------



## ronnyjodes

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Well i might have Diesbachia tamyris, Pseudophasma lakini, Orestes mouhotii, and maybe some eggs of Hermagoras cultratolobatus is that spikes anyones interest
> 
> Do you have to be a member to go the show?
> Looking again it is pretty far away :/


You can sign up on the day or in advance, advance is cheaper. Basically by paying to get in the meeting you become a member. It's definitely worth the trip and I think your bugs would go down a treat .

Do you still keep arboreal crabs? They've always interested me.


----------



## Harbinger

ronnyjodes said:


> You can sign up on the day or in advance, advance is cheaper. Basically by paying to get in the meeting you become a member. It's definitely worth the trip and I think your bugs would go down a treat .
> 
> Do you still keep arboreal crabs? They've always interested me.


Yeah, although not for long, i was thinking of selling them funnilly enough to make room for darts :roll:


----------



## Wolfenrook

Are you a member of CREAKS or IHS by any chance? If so, you can sign up on the door for LESS than it costs to sign up online.

Just one more way we're trying to make membership, and supporting, more than one society that bit more affordable. 

Ade


----------



## Harbinger

Not a member of anything 
It was only a few years ago i wasnt allowed anymore vertebrates so i never thought about it. If i can build up a phib collection though it might be worth it i guess


----------



## Wolfenrook

Oh well, it's still pretty cheap to join. 

If you do decide to come, and want a table, if you let me know what inverts you'd have with you I can advertise this so folks know they will be there. Otherwise you have to rely on impulse buys. 

If not, well maybe we will see you another time. 

Ade


----------



## Harbinger

Hahah yeah, well like i said deffiniatly got a lot of one species, a couple of slimp pickings of this and that other wise. How much are tables?
Its tempting but seeing as im a dart frog newbie and its primarily a phib show i'll probably be too busy looking around, unless i can dump a family member behind the table lol.

Seeing as i've got a month to go before i actually get the darts then is there anything else i need?

At the minute i just have fruit flies, but hydei, gonna order a tonne more melongaster before then. My springtails were drying than i thought so i dont have any outside the viv, so i'll be ordering some more of them. Want to get some more woodlice aswell whilst im at but a bit put off by only recieving like 5 individuals the last time :/

Other than livefood cultures i just need that repashy stuff and i should be set right?


----------



## Wolfenrook

Members are able to claim one table for free bud as a part of been a member, our aim been to encourage normal hobbyists more. Or if you want to, I am sure you can probably share some space with either Mike or even Kirsty if you don't think you have enough to warrant a table. If you can't get somebody to come with you, I'm sure you will be able to get somebody to spell you for 10 minutes whilst you have a look around. Doesn't take long as we're not exactly big yet.  For most of us it's more about the chance to meet up and have a chat with other hobbyists. 

Hmmm, woodlice, see if Stu is bringing any along, his cultures have an excellent reputation, as do the huge frogs he brings as he grows them on for ages. lol I had some superblues of him in April, right big frogs they are.










Took that when I got them home. lol

Ade


----------



## Meefloaf

Ade, stop bloody teasing, i can't wait


----------



## ronnyjodes

Wolfenrook said:


> the huge frogs he brings as he grows them on for ages. lol I had some superblues of him in April, right big frogs they are.
> 
> image
> 
> Took that when I got them home. lol


He had tincs with him in April that were big enough to ride home on. I heard a few people commenting on how huge his frogs were, he grows them on for ages so you definitely get a lot of frog for your money.


----------



## soundstounite

Jon...Ade thank you,really kind,not what I expected to find on any level. Ade I think the frog pictured is almost a one off,we have never had one quite so close to a "blue" lehmans before. If it was striped across the head it would be perfect. The markings seem so special on the SB's Ade,we both want to keep them all.

Des if you do come give me a shout first mate,we will get you sorted on some whites at least,but you won't count them on one bloody hand.:bash: I hate it that new guys starting to keep darts don't get a good starter mate. It is when we ALL need help the most. :devil: A good start and a bit of luck and graft and folks should be away 

Jon did those GO's pan out well.Thanks for the words again on the frogs,especially the tincs:lol2:,I don't know whether they will get to what I'm hoping for,such a tricky frog to do right by!! Another year now and we will know if all the graft for them has paid off.

cheers guys I know we graft hard and folks say lovely things here,but when the words are about the frogs that Shaz and her helper rear and are being said by guys that have them or have seen them, it just seems a bit special

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

They're all lovely Stu. This one though has an especially nice pattern:-










Starting to come out a bit more now too. 

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> They're all lovely Stu. This one though has an especially nice pattern:-
> 
> image
> 
> Starting to come out a bit more now too.
> 
> Ade


At last..brilliant mate I nearly asked last night to be honest, I know you know what to expect with auratus,but it's always cool to see that the waiting is starting to come to an end and the frogs are starting to chill in their new home and hence become more visible.

As far as marking go yeah I concur they ARE all lovely,I was watching dad this morning sat in his ***** of sunlight just glowing mate,they still do this each sunny morning. The colours in sunlight are breathtaking!! 

Stu


----------



## Harbinger

I'll have to think about it, sounds good, will see what i can scrounge up first.
And thanks for the offer of the sprintails, might have to take you up on it 
I deffiniately want to get some frogs there, ranitomeya variabilis would be my most wanted 
So i want to get as much as i can in advance like livefood and such ready.
Im dying waiting on some huntsman spiders arriving tomorrow, dont know how i can bare waiting a month


----------



## ronnyjodes

soundstounite said:


> Jon did those GO's pan out well.


 Only just seen this Stu. They did thanks yeah :no1:. They were a little slow to start but once they got going all was good, they're now in all my tanks as clean up crew and the whites will occasionally have a nibble on one as a treat .


----------



## Harbinger

> Oak-leavesx100 (remove)
> 
> Deciduous Magnolia leaves x 20+ (remove)
> 
> Asplenium nidus (remove)
> 
> Tropical white woodlice megapack (remove)
> 
> Drosophila-melanogaster-Starter-Culture (remove)
> 
> Drosophila-hydei-Starter-Culture (remove)
> 
> Repashy Calcium+ ICB 250ml (remove)


This should do right?
Needed some more oak leaves for my Megophrys


----------



## fatlad69

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> This should do right?
> Needed some more oak leaves for my Megophrys


Looks like you have most things covered.


----------



## Harbinger

That should do then right?
Only thing i should be needing after is the actual frog then yeah?
Just want to double check do i dont have to order more bits and pieces in between


----------



## mattbeighton

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> This should do right?
> Needed some more oak leaves for my Megophrys


Where's that from?


----------



## Harbinger

Where's what from?


----------



## mattbeighton

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Where's what from?


Your order, I wondered where you were buying it from as they seemed to have a good selection of woodlice.


----------



## Meefloaf

dartfrog

those deciduous magnolia leaves are brill, mould up real quick mind


----------



## mattbeighton

Meefloaf said:


> dartfrog
> 
> those deciduous magnolia leaves are brill, mould up real quick mind


Cheers.

Just ordered some springs and tropical whites from Marc. The springs were great but there were a lot of dead woodlice so I'm waiting to see if they bounce back.


----------



## Meefloaf

are you sure they are dead ? they play dead, watch them and then suddenly they spring up and hurtle away


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> are you sure they are dead ? they play dead, watch them and then suddenly they spring up and hurtle away


Bet they won't play dead if you mist 'em:gasp:
Matt how many are alive?...roughly not a head count:lol2:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

i lvoe that in my viv, mist the little bit of pillow moss etc and they all crawl out and the ground comes alive


----------



## soundstounite

Meefloaf said:


> i lvoe that in my viv, mist the little bit of pillow moss etc and they all crawl out and the ground comes alive


One catetorises this under the wonderful heading of "Tricks of the trade" 'course those of us not having any tricks just watch and go "oh :censor: yeah that works"

:2thumb:

Stu


----------



## Meefloaf

made me giggle when i first got my woods from dartfrog and had a few 'deadies' and i pondered to myself about them and watched, like i said, suddenly they would hurtle off round the wood chip lol. my trick is a chunk of coal with some yeast on it, flood to that


----------



## Ron Magpie

soundstounite said:


> One catetorises this under the wonderful heading of "Tricks of the trade" 'course those of us not having any tricks just watch and go "oh :censor: yeah that works"
> 
> :2thumb:
> 
> Stu





Meefloaf said:


> made me giggle when i first got my woods from dartfrog and had a few 'deadies' and i pondered to myself about them and watched, like i said, suddenly they would hurtle off round the wood chip lol. my trick is a chunk of coal with some yeast on it, flood to that


It's something I've noticed in the ones I got from you, Stu; to introduce them to a viv I generally just scoop up a likely-looking handfull of substrate from the culture, and bung it in. Generally the woods lie there as if dead. Then when I spray it to distribute it a bit, they suddenly 'grow legs' and start running for cover! :lol2:


----------



## soundstounite

Ron Magpie said:


> It's something I've noticed in the ones I got from you, Stu; to introduce them to a viv I generally just scoop up a likely-looking handfull of substrate from the culture, and bung it in. Generally the woods lie there as if dead. Then when I spray it to distribute it a bit, they suddenly 'grow legs' and start running for cover! :lol2:


tis called stockmanship Ron :no1:


White woods go cream pretty quick once dead. Not enough air and a proper banging culture only leads to this,tis the only time I've seen crashes,two of those caused by yeast,the third by some idiot called Stu putting a top vented culture under another,instead of on top where it should have been...DOH 
i'm sure they are JUST playing dead that's what we see when we mess with them a natural defence mechanism against their movement causing them to be munched,naturally water means run for da hills,so they do:lol2:

best

Stu


----------



## mattbeighton

soundstounite said:


> tis called stockmanship Ron :no1:
> 
> 
> White woods go cream pretty quick once dead. Not enough air and a proper banging culture only leads to this,tis the only time I've seen crashes,two of those caused by yeast,the third by some idiot called Stu putting a top vented culture under another,instead of on top where it should have been...DOH
> i'm sure they are JUST playing dead that's what we see when we mess with them a natural defence mechanism against their movement causing them to be munched,naturally water means run for da hills,so they do:lol2:
> 
> best
> 
> Stu


I'll be spraying them first thing this morning then!


----------



## Harbinger

The tanks still growing well, the green patches of the backing are covered in fern growth, forgot what those baby ferns are called again. But some actual fern looking leaves have sprouted from them now. The moss is taking a while longer to grow, left an old tank outside and its overgrown with moss in like a week :/
The newest bromeliad bloomed the other week, was pretty nice, didnt last long though. Also got a couple of tiny leaves singularly from the moss mix, not sure if they are shoots off of the climbers or something else from the moss mix. Had to take two out of three of the savu nut pods out, they were just encrusted with mould. Lettng them dry off and be cleaned before i put them back in in different positions.

Anyway just learnt about SWARE next weekened, its only 40 minutes from me so im hoping to go to that one aswell. Might even finally get dart frogs there:mf_dribble:
Still thinking about BAKS, watching the stick insects at the minute, got some nice species starting to hatch but havent got secure numbers yet, too soon to tell.


----------



## Harbinger

Is it safe to assume there will be woodlice at SWARE?
If not will it be ok for the dart frogs to go without them until BAKS provided there's enough springtails and fruitflies?


----------



## Harbinger

Ok so i now have worms in my viv for some reason, wondered why the leaflitter was going so quick. Is this a real problem?
Im finding more and more snails which is really worrying, and now worms :/


----------



## mattbeighton

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Ok so i now have worms in my viv for some reason, wondered why the leaflitter was going so quick. Is this a real problem?
> Im finding more and more snails which is really worrying, and now worms :/


Assuming they are just normal garden or compost worms, they'll just move the substrate around a bit and easy some of the organic matter. I can't see them ever presenting a problem, but I'd defer to someone more experienced.


----------



## Wolfenrook

mattbeighton said:


> Assuming they are just normal garden or compost worms, they'll just move the substrate around a bit and easy some of the organic matter. I can't see them ever presenting a problem, but I'd defer to someone more experienced.


Agreed, if they're segmented they wont be a problem, just make sure that you have plenty of air movement and keep an eye on your substrate as sometimes it's a sign that it has too much rotting organic content in it.

If they aren't segmented and look like wriggly little things, they potentially could be nemerteans. These are more of a problem as they predate springtails. If they multiply enough they can make feeding baby frogs rather a chore, competing with them for food. That said a lot of species you wouldn't be rearing the baby frogs in viv with the adults anyway, and it becomes a non-issue. I tend to try to get babies onto mels as soon as possible anyway, they grow faster than when fed for a long time on springs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemertea

The other possible candidate is land planaria. These are actually quite common in vivs, coming in with plants and often mistaken for nemertea. http://www.clemson.edu/cafls/depart.../household_structural/land_planaria_hs45.html They present the same problems as nemertea though, predating on other small organisms in the soil. The giveaway is the head end, been pointy in nemertea and sort of anchor shaped in land planaria.

Ade


----------



## Harbinger

Well i replied to this but my post is gone :/
Anyway it was plain average looking earthworms.
But more importantly...




























I HAVE DARTS!
Didnt see many thumbnails today, and in the end decided it was best to begin with the beginner species, seeing as i am a beginner 

Going by my other thread i should have quarantined them, lesson learnt for next time. So far they've had a wander and even fed on some fruit flies. Here's the viv as of today, shuffled things around and added a new plant i got today.


----------



## Meefloaf

awesome Frogs, their patterns are so defined


----------



## soundstounite

Wonderful,give em time now mate,talk to then lots very quiet,move slow around the viv and they should settle well,lovely viv too. Whether the frogs came from us or elsewhere I still think these guys are some of the best frogs to start out with,you'll see in time why mate,I can't see us ever not having leucs 

hmm that's you scuppered then you'll be wanting more I guess,these frogs do this to us
good luck with them

Stu


----------



## Wolfenrook

soundstounite said:


> Wonderful,give em time now mate,talk to then lots very quiet,move slow around the viv and they should settle well,lovely viv too. Whether the frogs came from us or elsewhere I still think these guys are some of the best frogs to start out with,you'll see in time why mate,I can't see us ever not having leucs
> 
> hmm that's you scuppered then you'll be wanting more I guess,these frogs do this to us
> good luck with them
> 
> Stu


Every word of that is the truth!

I'm hugely into pums etc, but it's my leucs that have the biggest viv......

As to the addiction, oh yes indeed! Started with 1 dart viv, then 2, then 4, I think we just passed 18....:blush: The best advice I can give here though is, for your next frogs pick the ones you REALLY want from the off, before you end up with loads that you just want and no room for the ones you REALLY want... :whistling2:

Ade


----------



## soundstounite

Wolfenrook said:


> Every word of that is the truth!
> 
> I'm hugely into pums etc, but it's my leucs that have the biggest viv......
> 
> As to the addiction, oh yes indeed! Started with 1 dart viv, then 2, then 4, I think we just passed 18....:blush: The best advice I can give here though is, for your next frogs pick the ones you REALLY want from the off, before you end up with loads that you just want and no room for the ones you REALLY want... :whistling2:
> 
> Ade


There is a certain irony to this post given what I've just written on the dream frog thread,:2thumb: the problem is making that decision 

Stu


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## Harbinger

Thanks all 
At least one is always out and about, they are way more acrobatic than i thought they would be, find them on the ridges of wood on the background alot which is nice. Love watching them hunt 
And yeah hahah, i really want more phibs, be it darts or tree frogs. I was trying to cut down on my invertebrates to make more room for some more frogs. First thing im going to do is get a front opening tank. Deffiniatly want some kind of Ranitomeya, but then i also one some nice tree frogs 
Will see what space i can make.

Here's some more pics


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