# Long haired akitas



## ryanr1987

any one know any good breeders of long haired akitas? american prefered


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## Nebbz

always understood the akita was illegal in this country? (may be completely wrong though lmao!)


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## ryanr1987

Nebbz said:


> always understood the akita was illegal in this country? (may be completely wrong though lmao!)


:lol2: nah there legal


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## Nebbz

ahh thought so, Tke it you need a license to own one then? beautiful dogs though. sorry to spam though hun! Wish i could help on a breeder for you but i have no idea with this breed.


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## ryanr1987

Nebbz said:


> ahh thought so, Tke it you need a license to own one then? beautiful dogs though. sorry to spam though hun! Wish i could help on a breeder for you but i have no idea with this breed.


 no worries  nah don't need a license what made you thought so? there too stunning to need a license


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## midori

There are two types of Akita, the Japanese Akita Inu and the American Akita. Long coats exist in both, but are seen as a fault, so no decent breeder will be attemtping to achieve a long coat. However, you might find breeders who get the odd long coat in their litters, but they will be likely trying to avoid it.


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## ditta

oh my word what a beautiful dog:flrt:


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## midori

ditta said:


> oh my word what a beautiful dog:flrt:


 It is beautiful, I dont' disagree, but I prefer them with shorter coats: 

http://www.dogencyclopedia.org/Akita.jpg


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## ditta

midori said:


> It is beautiful, I dont' disagree, but I prefer them with shorter coats:
> 
> http://www.dogencyclopedia.org/Akita.jpg


 
as a child i always loved the look of chows but my da said 'stay away from the dog with the purple tongue, its poisonous' so this is perfect for me.....looks like a chow but without the poisonous tongue:lol2:


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## ryanr1987

i prefur the american to the jap akitas more colours both stunning though. long coat akitas are the so much better looking there more unique and rarer then the standerd akitas. check these ones out


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## lilworm

there is a stunning one in akita rescue :flrt: been in a while it seems

Simba – 2 year old male Japanese Akita dog rescue | dogs for adoption | UK


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## ryanr1987

lilworm said:


> there is a stunning one in akita rescue :flrt: been in a while it seems
> 
> Simba – 2 year old male Japanese Akita dog rescue | dogs for adoption | UK


 wow hes beautiful


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## purpleskyes

My friend also asked me today if they were illegal and I said er no they arent and then she said dont you need a license and dont they have to be muzzed all the time because they are aggressive.

I dont know were the story has come from? I like the long and short ones :flrt:


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## Ssthisto

Maybe people are mixing up the Japanese Akita (legal) with the Japanese Tosa (regulated under the Dangerous Dogs Act) ?

There's a couple of lovely Akitas living near me... but I'm more envious and drooling at the half-dozen or so Huskies that live in the area.


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## JulieNoob

No one breeds for them specifically as it is a breed fault but they do crop up - I would contact some of the larger kennels and express an interest or perhaps teh akita club.
The longer coat is harder to maintain though - light and easily knotty - but very pretty!!!


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## ryanr1987

LOL probs but i can't see how people can get the breeds mixed but but spose tosa inu and akita inu sounds sorter the same apart from the the inu bit.


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## ryanr1987

JulieNoob said:


> No one breeds for them specifically as it is a breed fault but they do crop up - I would contact some of the larger kennels and express an interest or perhaps teh akita club.
> The longer coat is harder to maintain though - light and easily knotty - but very pretty!!!


 we have a long coat german shepherd and her fur gets knotted we have to use a strong brush so i can imagen what a long haired akita will be like :lol2:


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## elle1331

We had a beautiful big boy Akita when we were growing up, he was the most beautiful loyal dog i have ever known. Good luck finding yours OP X X X


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## ryanr1987

elle1331 said:


> We had a beautiful big boy Akita when we were growing up, he was the most beautiful loyal dog i have ever known. Good luck finding yours OP X X X


 thanks  i'm waiting till about spring next year going to find a good breeder can;t wait  wanted an akita since i was little


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## cathspythons

Heres my baby taken when he was 6 months old,one of his litter brothers is a long coat.Like a few people have mentioned this is classed as a fault,hence the reason that they are harder to find.Most of them have breeding restrictions on there papers,so are not bred as often.


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## KathyM

I much prefer a lovely shortcoated one like that one! :flrt: The longhaired ones look all wrong to me?


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## ryanr1987

cathspythons said:


> Heres my baby taken when he was 6 months old,one of his litter brothers is a long coat.Like a few people have mentioned this is classed as a fault,hence the reason that they are harder to find.Most of them have breeding restrictions on there papers,so are not bred as often.
> 
> image


 cute! both looks great but i have always been a fan of long coated dogs there more unique. i have heard danti akitas breeds long coats going to drop them an email.


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## cathspythons

I very much doubt they do,i dont no of any breeder that goes out of there way to breed them.Theres allways a chance one will pop up in a litter now and again though.Stecal had one for sale not that long ago,you could try them.


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## ryanr1987

cathspythons said:


> I very much doubt they do,i dont no of any breeder that goes out of there way to breed them.Theres allways a chance one will pop up in a litter now and again though.Stecal had one for sale not that long ago,you could try them.


 go on thee website : victory: they sell quite well a lot of people prefur them


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## cathspythons

ryanr1987 said:


> go on thee website : victory:


They are pups that have came from a normal short coat litter,like i said sometimes you can get 1 or 2 longcoats if both the parents carry the gene.


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## ryanr1987

i'll have to look about sooner the time. i think more people should actually breed them they look so much better and have noticed a lot of people wanted them in the dog world.


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## cathspythons

I agree they are lovely dogs and make fantastic pets,they seem to be a lot more calmer and chilled out than the short coats for some reason.If i hear of any breeders with a long coat pup available,i will let you now :2thumb:


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## ryanr1987

cathspythons said:


> I agree they are lovely dogs and make fantastic pets,they seem to be a lot more calmer and chilled out than the short coats for some reason.If i hear of any breeders with a long coat pup available,i will let you now :2thumb:


 thanks for that  : victory:


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## midori

ryanr1987 said:


> i'll have to look about sooner the time. i think more people should actually breed them they look so much better and have noticed a lot of people wanted them in the dog world.


 
I disagree, people should be breeding to the breed standard, and as long coats are classed as a fault, no reputable breeder is going to be deliberately breeding them. They also won't be breeding to public demand. 

That's not to say they aren't nice, but I prefer short coats myself, that's how an Akita is meant to look.


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## robstaine

it looks like a chow cross


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## ryanr1987

midori said:


> I disagree, people should be breeding to the breed standard, and as long coats are classed as a fault, no reputable breeder is going to be deliberately breeding them. They also won't be breeding to public demand.
> 
> That's not to say they aren't nice, but I prefer short coats myself, that's how an Akita is meant to look.


i disagree why should people always breed to the breed standerd if the dogs are for showing then it's a differen't story. it's only classed as a fault in teh show ring why does everything have to be about the show ring? there pets i think breeding long coats would be great it's unique and works great for the breed. they actually have better temperments aswell then the short coats.


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## Shell195

ryanr1987 said:


> i disagree why should people always breed to the breed standerd if the dogs are for showing then it's a differen't story. it's only classed as a fault in teh show ring why does everything have to be about the show ring? there pets i think breeding long coats would be great it's unique and works great for the breed. they actually have better temperments aswell then the short coats.


 
The GSD is another breed that is meant to have a short coat. Sometimes a pretty longcoat turns up but its not something good breeders strive to breed. The standard says it should be short coated so that is what good breeders try to get. Im not saying that longcoats dont make great pets though
Good breeders breed to breed standard and then show off their dogs in the show ring. There is no point breeding dogs if the breeder cant adhere to the breed standard


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## KathyM

I much prefer GSDs with a good short coat too. :flrt:


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## Evie

My last GSD came from a breeder who bred long coats. I didn't specifically want a long coat, I loved the temperament and style of her dogs. Her dogs are hip, scored etc. She breeds dogs for working trials, obedience and agility and all her dogs have a list of qualifications after their name. I don't think that Akitas are renowned for their working ability, and I don't know if it's true about the long coats being nicer tempered, although it is feasable, since I firmly believe that small black poodles are nicer natured than whites.
I do think that considering the fact that the majority of dogs end up in pet homes, then suitability as a pet should be the first aim of any breeder. Show breeders should aim for both, but if a harmless trait like a long coat is desirable by pet owners, then I don't see any harm in breeding them as long as they are healthy and sound. 
You only have to look at collies to know that the length of coat doesn't make an iota of difference to their ability to perform the function they were bred for.


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## midori

Evie said:


> My last GSD came from a breeder who bred long coats. I didn't specifically want a long coat, I loved the temperament and style of her dogs. Her dogs are hip, scored etc. She breeds dogs for working trials, obedience and agility and all her dogs have a list of qualifications after their name. I don't think that Akitas are renowned for their working ability, and I don't know if it's true about the long coats being nicer tempered, although it is feasable, since I firmly believe that small black poodles are nicer natured than whites.
> I do think that considering the fact that the majority of dogs end up in pet homes, then suitability as a pet should be the first aim of any breeder. Show breeders should aim for both, but if a harmless trait like a long coat is desirable by pet owners, then I don't see any harm in breeding them as long as they are healthy and sound.
> You only have to look at collies to know that the length of coat doesn't make an iota of difference to their ability to perform the function they were bred for.


 
Surely the 'harm' is that we end up with dogs that look nothing like the breed they are?! 

Obviously Goldens are masively bred for the pet market by BYB's and puppy farmers, and there are so many around that don't even look like Goldens, I actually find it quite upsetting.

The fact is, most people are attracted to a breed for it's lokks and dogs shoul dlook how they are supposed to, not altered because a few people (who don't even care about the breed they want) are after a particular look. 

By all means, if someone wants along haired akita, they should get one, plenty are bred by 'accident' in well bred litters. But failing that, there are plenty of long coated breeds people can chose. 

And lets face it, someone who like sor wants one because they are 'rare' and 'unusual' just isn't going to want one anymore if everyone started deliberately breeding them anyway, are they?!


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## ryanr1987

midori said:


> Surely the 'harm' is that we end up with dogs that look nothing like the breed they are?!
> 
> Obviously Goldens are masively bred for the pet market by BYB's and puppy farmers, and there are so many around that don't even look like Goldens, I actually find it quite upsetting.
> 
> The fact is, most people are attracted to a breed for it's lokks and dogs shoul dlook how they are supposed to, not altered because a few people (who don't even care about the breed they want) are after a particular look.
> 
> By all means, if someone wants along haired akita, they should get one, plenty are bred by 'accident' in well bred litters. But failing that, there are plenty of long coated breeds people can chose.
> 
> And lets face it, someone who like sor wants one because they are 'rare' and 'unusual' just isn't going to want one anymore if everyone started deliberately breeding them anyway, are they?!


the only difference in looks is a longer coat. dogs are always going to be changing i think it great too many people care about there dogs just for showing but there's loads of people that want there dogs for pets. long haired dogs are getting more and more popular and have noticed that long coat gsds are getting very popluar which is also great it makes a change. it doesnt affect the health of the dog so i dont see a problem


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## Evie

> Surely the 'harm' is that we end up with dogs that look nothing like the breed they are?!


Which is why people should look at the parents.



> Obviously Goldens are masively bred for the pet market by BYB's and puppy farmers, and there are so many around that don't even look like Goldens, I actually find it quite upsetting.


There's a massive difference between the Goldens bred here and the Goldens bred in the USA. The ones Ive seen working are rangy, rich coloured and look like they've been crossed with setters BUT they have so much drive - I would choose one of them. I think the show type are much prettier but they aren't what everyone wants.



> The fact is, most people are attracted to a breed for it's lokks and dogs shoul dlook how they are supposed to, not altered because a few people (who don't even care about the breed they want) are after a particular look.


Years ago I was having a dilema about choosing my next dog. I love GSDs to look at but I love collies for their drive - I ended up with a GSD collie cross - looked like a small smooth coat shepherd but had a collie mind - perfect for me.
One of the most popular types in obedience a few years ago was the collie x retriever - a very successful cross bred for performance and not the show ring.




> And lets face it, someone who like sor wants one because they are 'rare' and 'unusual' just isn't going to want one anymore if everyone started deliberately breeding them anyway, are they?!


I don't think rare and unusual comes into it - it's just preference. There are different coat types in lots of breeds - Belgian shepherds, daxis, Weimaraners, Collies etc. Someone liked them, bred them and they got recognised.

I appreciate that it is a sad fact that when someone breeds puppies for the pet market they are instantly labeled as a BYB - and in many cases I am sure it's true BUT it doesnt make it right to breed an animal fullfilling the criteria for the minority (ie the show ring) and not the majority (pet homes). The show world should be more rigourous in paying more attention to temperament and good health - which are the 2 most important aspects of breeding dogs.

What a dog looks like should be a bonus and not the primary aim. Imagine if you went to look at a puppy and the puppy took one look at you and said 'look at the state of your hair - sorry I wouldn't be seen dead out with you love' :lol2:
Dogs appreciate us without judgement of our appearance - we should do the same.
My point is that there is a lot more to dogs than what they look like and it is shallow of us to think otherwise and look down our noses at those who look 'wrong'.


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## ryanr1987

Evie said:


> Which is why people should look at the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a massive difference between the Goldens bred here and the Goldens bred in the USA. The ones Ive seen working are rangy, rich coloured and look like they've been crossed with setters BUT they have so much drive - I would choose one of them. I think the show type are much prettier but they aren't what everyone wants.
> 
> 
> Years ago I was having a dilema about choosing my next dog. I love GSDs to look at but I love collies for their drive - I ended up with a GSD collie cross - looked like a small smooth coat shepherd but had a collie mind - perfect for me.
> One of the most popular types in obedience a few years ago was the collie x retriever - a very successful cross bred for performance and not the show ring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think rare and unusual comes into it - it's just preference. There are different coat types in lots of breeds - Belgian shepherds, daxis, Weimaraners, Collies etc. Someone liked them, bred them and they got recognised.
> 
> I appreciate that it is a sad fact that when someone breeds puppies for the pet market they are instantly labeled as a BYB - and in many cases I am sure it's true BUT it doesnt make it right to breed an animal fullfilling the criteria for the minority (ie the show ring) and not the majority (pet homes). The show world should be more rigourous in paying more attention to temperament and good health - which are the 2 most important aspects of breeding dogs.
> 
> What a dog looks like should be a bonus and not the primary aim. Imagine if you went to look at a puppy and the puppy took one look at you and said 'look at the state of your hair - sorry I wouldn't be seen dead out with you love' :lol2:
> Dogs appreciate us without judgement of our appearance - we should do the same.
> My point is that there is a lot more to dogs than what they look like and it is shallow of us to think otherwise and look down our noses at those who look 'wrong'.


 i think that post was spot on


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## feorag

I have to say I agree too! In working breeds particularly there is a difference between what constitues a good show dog and what constitutes a good working dog and that would show in a lot of instances if you compared a show champion with a field trials champion.

I agree there has to be a breed standard and those who breed to show have to breed to that standard and it would be a disaster if everyone just bred what they liked the look of without any consideration to the breed standard, but common sense must prevail, surely??

I showed my cats and bred to the breed standard, but not all my kittens were show quality, because champions don't necessarily breed champions etc. One of my breeding queens had a coat disqualifiable fault which meant she couldn't be shown, but she bred champions, which is no different to Akitas and GSDs with long coats. It's a show fault, but as a breeder I'd rather work with a coat fault than a conformation fault. I bred the top winning Somali in 1995 and 1996 (different cats I'm proud to add!), yet in 17 years of breeding and umpteen litters, I sold 3 kittens that were shown - the rest all went as pets!!
.


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## Evie

feorag said:


> I agree there has to be a breed standard and those who breed to show have to breed to that standard and it would be a disaster if everyone just bred what they liked the look of without any consideration to the breed standard, but common sense must prevail, surely??
> 
> .


Absolutely - I'm not anti-show I just think there is room for other aims when breeding. Common sense is the key word here. :no1:
btw Eileen I was smitten with your brave cat - what a gorgeous boy he is!


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## midori

ryanr1987 said:


> i prefur the american to the jap akitas more colours both stunning though. long coat akitas are the so much better looking there more unique and rarer then the standerd akitas. check these ones out
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image
> 
> image





ryanr1987 said:


> cute! both looks great but i have always been a fan of long coated dogs there more unique. i have heard danti akitas breeds long coats going to drop them an email.





Evie said:


> Which is why people should look at the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a massive difference between the Goldens bred here and the Goldens bred in the USA. The ones Ive seen working are rangy, rich coloured and look like they've been crossed with setters BUT they have so much drive - I would choose one of them. I think the show type are much prettier but they aren't what everyone wants.
> 
> 
> Years ago I was having a dilema about choosing my next dog. I love GSDs to look at but I love collies for their drive - I ended up with a GSD collie cross - looked like a small smooth coat shepherd but had a collie mind - perfect for me.
> One of the most popular types in obedience a few years ago was the collie x retriever - a very successful cross bred for performance and not the show ring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think rare and unusual comes into it - it's just preference. There are different coat types in lots of breeds - Belgian shepherds, daxis, Weimaraners, Collies etc. Someone liked them, bred them and they got recognised.
> 
> I appreciate that it is a sad fact that when someone breeds puppies for the pet market they are instantly labeled as a BYB - and in many cases I am sure it's true BUT it doesnt make it right to breed an animal fullfilling the criteria for the minority (ie the show ring) and not the majority (pet homes). The show world should be more rigourous in paying more attention to temperament and good health - which are the 2 most important aspects of breeding dogs.
> 
> What a dog looks like should be a bonus and not the primary aim. Imagine if you went to look at a puppy and the puppy took one look at you and said 'look at the state of your hair - sorry I wouldn't be seen dead out with you love' :lol2:
> Dogs appreciate us without judgement of our appearance - we should do the same.
> My point is that there is a lot more to dogs than what they look like and it is shallow of us to think otherwise and look down our noses at those who look 'wrong'.


 
The OP mentioned 'unique' and 'rare' a couple of times, which is why it comes into it. 

As for Goldens, yes the American type is very much different to the english type, and personally I cannot stand the American Goldens, they often have such ugly heads and not good expression, which is one of the most important things regarding the looks of a Golden to me. The UK dogs are the 'correct' ones ot me, being a Scottish breed, after all. In the UK, the difference between working and show types is becoming less and less, with more breeders breeding 'dual purpose' dogs that can do well in both the show ring and the field, which is ideal really, as Goldens should be able to do the job they were meant for as well as do well in the show ring. 

Why do you think the 'show world' in a working breed like Goldens would be so seperate from the rest of the dog world? Or that breeders do not bred with health and temprement in mind? After all, a Golden with a poor temprement is extremely unlikely to do well in the show ring, as temprement is such an important part of the breed. 

The fact is, good breeders breed with it all in mind, and will not breed if they can't 'produce the goods' and that for me is a dog that looks like the breed it is supposed to, conforms to the breed standard, with an excellent temprement, good conformation, excellent health and able to do whatever job is was originally intended for. Anyone who cannot meet all of that, and maybe more, should not be breeding.


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## midori

feorag said:


> I showed my cats and bred to the breed standard, but not all my kittens were show quality, because champions don't necessarily breed champions etc. One of my breeding queens had a coat disqualifiable fault which meant she couldn't be shown, but she bred champions, which is no different to Akitas and GSDs with long coats. It's a show fault, but as a breeder I'd rather work with a coat fault than a conformation fault. I bred the top winning Somali in 1995 and 1996 (different cats I'm proud to add!), yet in 17 years of breeding and umpteen litters, I sold 3 kittens that were shown - the rest all went as pets!!
> .


I agree, but would you have deliberately bred for a coat fault?


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## ryanr1987

it's only a fault in the show world not for a pet which is the idear :lol2:


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## Shell195

My friend who breeds GSD breeds for tempermant and as close to the breed standard as possible and most of her puppies go to pet homes. A few long coats appear in most litters and these are usually the first to sell as they are very pretty dogs. I think in this breed the problem is that the Long coats arent as waterproof as normal coats which is why they arent allowed to be shown as being a working breed they are meant to be waterproof.
If this post doesnt make sense then please forgive me as lack of sleep has addled my brain:lol2:


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## purpleskyes

My other half isnt keen on the akita's but I just showed him those pictures of the long haired ones and he really likes them result. One step closer to getting an akita one day :no1:


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## ryanr1987

Shell195 said:


> My friend who breeds GSD breeds for tempermant and as close to the breed standard as possible and most of her puppies go to pet homes. A few long coats appear in most litters and these are usually the first to sell as they are very pretty dogs. I think in this breed the problem is that the Long coats arent as waterproof as normal coats which is why they arent allowed to be shown as being a working breed they are meant to be waterproof.
> If this post doesnt make sense then please forgive me as lack of sleep has addled my brain:lol2:


 i have a long coated gsd and have owned short coats and the long coat is alot more water proof i dont know if its just her though lol


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## Belfast_Phasmid_Keeper

I haven't read all the post and i ain't getting into the long coat short coat debate but try Champdogs for general akita breeders and see if anyone mentions long coats or even the puppy section. hope this helps​


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## ryanr1987

Belfast_Phasmid_Keeper said:


> I haven't read all the post and i ain't getting into the long coat short coat debate but try Champdogs for general akita breeders and see if anyone mentions long coats or even the puppy section. hope this helps​


 cheers


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## Evie

midori said:


> As for Goldens, yes the American type is very much different to the english type, and personally I cannot stand the American Goldens, they often have such ugly heads and not good expression, which is one of the most important things regarding the looks of a Golden to me. The UK dogs are the 'correct' ones ot me, being a Scottish breed, after all.


This is exactly my point - you personally prefer the UK type and someone else might prefer the US type. As long as both types are healthy and have good temperaments - why isn't there room for both? 

I agree that the the English type are much better looking but you can't top the USAs for attitude. It doesn't make the USA type breeders bad or disreputable - just breeding with different priorities for different people. I've met people who think that Goldens are long haired Labs :gasp:
I simply can't see the difference in someone breeding a long haired weimaraner and someone breeding a long haired GSD - apart from the fact that the GSD can't be shown in the breed ring. A long haired GSD can guard, herd, track, search, compete in various disciplines, guide the blind, assist the disabled, be a fine pet dog and whatever else a standard coat can do. I can't think of a single function that a standard coat can perform that a long coat can't.
Shell if you've ever tried to bath a long coat GSD - they are quite flipping waterproof enough :lol2:


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## midori

Evie said:


> This is exactly my point - you personally prefer the UK type and someone else might prefer the US type. As long as both types are healthy and have good temperaments - why isn't there room for both?
> 
> I agree that the the English type are much better looking but you can't top the USAs for attitude. It doesn't make the USA type breeders bad or disreputable - just breeding with different priorities for different people. I've met people who think that Goldens are long haired Labs :gasp:
> I simply can't see the difference in someone breeding a long haired weimaraner and someone breeding a long haired GSD - apart from the fact that the GSD can't be shown in the breed ring. A long haired GSD can guard, herd, track, search, compete in various disciplines, guide the blind, assist the disabled, be a fine pet dog and whatever else a standard coat can do. I can't think of a single function that a standard coat can perform that a long coat can't.
> Shell if you've ever tried to bath a long coat GSD - they are quite flipping waterproof enough :lol2:


I can see what you're saying, but we have a UK standard and should be breeding to that. 

I don't, and haven't disputed that long haired akitas (and GSD's) are stunning to look at, but people should not be breeding soley for the pet market, (eg. money) but to further and improve the breed. There are more than enough puppies that don't make the grade for showing, and will go to pet homes. Not every puppy in every litter can be show quality, and even if they are, some breeders simply prefer pet homes for their pups. 

Shell's friend seems a good example of an ethical breder to me. She has obviously seen as long haired pups sell first, that there is market for them, but still doesn't deliberately breed for them.


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## Evie

midori said:


> I can see what you're saying, but we have a UK standard and should be breeding to that.
> 
> I don't, and haven't disputed that long haired akitas (and GSD's) are stunning to look at, but people should not be breeding soley for the pet market, (eg. money) but to further and improve the breed. *There are more than enough puppies that don't make the grade for showing,* and will go to pet homes. Not every puppy in every litter can be show quality, and even if they are, some breeders simply prefer pet homes for their pups.
> 
> Shell's friend seems a good example of an ethical breder to me. She has obviously seen as long haired pups sell first, that there is market for them, but still doesn't deliberately breed for them.


There are more pet dogs than there are show dogs - we should be breeding dogs which are suitable for the majority of homes.
The person who deliberately bred my long coat GSD is a KC official. I don't see how breeding dogs which are suitable for the majority of homes (pet) is unethical breeding for money since puppies from a dog with success in the show ring is likely to fetch a higher price. Pet quality puppies are often sold for a lower price - like they are somehow less worthy.

I agree that Shells friend is an excellent breeder and I wouldn't hesitate to buy a dog from her, but I would also buy one (and did) from the long coat breeder. I bought one from her even though I didn't particularly want a long coat at the time - I just liked her dogs.
I didn't go looking for a blue merle when I got my collie - I just went to a breeder who's dogs I liked. I waited a year for a puppy and coat colour was the least thing I considered.

BTW I am enjoying this discussion - thanks


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## midori

Evie said:


> There are more pet dogs than there are show dogs - we should be breeding dogs which are suitable for the majority of homes.
> The person who deliberately bred my long coat GSD is a KC official. I don't see how breeding dogs which are suitable for the majority of homes (pet) is unethical breeding for money since puppies from a dog with success in the show ring is likely to fetch a higher price. Pet quality puppies are often sold for a lower price - like they are somehow less worthy.
> 
> BTW I am enjoying this discussion - thanks


 
The dogs bred by 'show breeders' should be suitable for the majority of homes though, with the added bonus that hopefully they're good enough for the show ring too and at the least will be mostly good-looking dogs that look like the breed they are. 

If people who breed specifically for pet homes aren't breeding unethically for money, what are they breeding for?! 

It's also a common misconception that puppies from Sh. Ch etc will fetch higher prices, in the dog world, (as opposed to the horse world, for example) this doesn't really happen, other than a few very unscrupulous breeders, although unregsitered puppies from parents who are not health tested often go for lower prices. 

And yes, it's nice to have a discussion that is sensible and people don't take someone having a different opinion to them to heart. :2thumb:


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## Evie

midori said:


> If people who breed specifically for pet homes aren't breeding unethically for money, what are they breeding for?!


I honestly don't know why anyone really breeds tbh. I know that show breeders say they are breeding to improve the breed etc But if Im honest I think there's more to it. They breed because they love having puppies around, because they get a lot of pleasure from seeing their offspring grow up into happy well adjusted dogs, because they enjoy the whole experience? I tend to keep more male dogs so it isn't something that tends to crop up for me. I've never kept a bitch of suitable quality. I don't think I could sell puppies because I would worry too much about their welfare.

Lets go back to the idea of people buying a dog based on looks - lots of people like the look of totally unsuitable breeds. Now lets imagine That someone owns a border collie but it has the personality of a Cavalier King Charles - perfect pet collie perhaps? No good for working, could be ok for showing but it might be too big or too small. I would applaud someone breeding such collies - I wouldn't want one but it would be ideal for someone wanted a pet collie to love. So far from it adding to the rescues, it would be preventing the problems that put them there in the first place.
By happy coincidence show collies make much better pets than working collies but this isn't always the case with every breed.

The person who bred my collie (who is probably too big for showing) breeds different lines - workers, show dogs and pet (lower drive). She won't sell workers to people who want a pet. She breeds pet litters probably because she recognises that if she didn't, people would go the nearest farm and buy a collie from there with potentially disastrous consequences. Her pet dogs are cheaper but still have all the relevant health tests.
Being a much loved family pet is as important as being a show champion if the dogs are happy and loved.


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## midori

Personally, I think being a much loved pet is far more important than being a show champion, but there's nothing to say a dog can't be both. 

Whether having puppies around is a pleasure is debatable to be honest. I won't deny I get pleasure out of seeing puppies grow up, and I don't deny most breeders do, but rearing puppies properly is extremely hard work aswell, something that people don't often seem to realise, I feel. I would still say though, that most _good_ show breeders primarily breed because they geninely care for and love 'their' breed as a whole and want to improve on what they already have. Everything else is a bonus. 

I can't help but think there already enough dog breeds out there for someone to find one they like the look of and that fits into their lifestyle, so I just can't see the need to breed collies with the temprement of cavs. 

I do agree that most working bred dogs are not suitable as pets only, and that in some breeds, especially such as collies which have so much drive, show dogs have much lower drive and therefore make suitable pets. 

I do think that if maybe show breeders bred more often it would mean more properly bred dogs were available to the public, but I do still believe they shoudl stick to breed standards if doing so. Tha fact is though, that regardless, some people simply should not own dogs, and no good breeder would sell to them whether they were producing 'surplus' puppies for the pet market or not, and so there will always (extremely sadly) be a market for puppy farmers because people seem to have the mentality of they want something, so therefore they should have it.


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## KathyM

I don't see how breeding a longcoated version of a shorthaired dog *is* improving them petwise? Coming from not just a pet owner's standpoint but also that of a fosterer/rescuer, adding the long coat to an otherwise suitable dog is surely making it less suitable for a pet home, not more. The amount of longcoated GSDs I've seen get handed in purely because of their grooming needs is not unsubstantial. I wish all breed standards promoted health as well as conformity looks wise, and therefore can't 100% back the breed standard argument for all breeds, but in these cases I cannot see a single argument for breeding them with awful long coats, especially the Akita that looks really ugly with it (just personal opinion obviously) and nothing like the dog it's meant to be. There are some dogs that suit their long coats, that Akita isn't one of them lol.


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## feorag

midori said:


> I agree, but would you have deliberately bred for a coat fault?


Absolutely not! As a breeder I was working towards producing a cat that adhered to the SOP. If it hadn't been that she was the only female in the litter and the colour I had been waiting for, I would have sold her on, but instead I kept her and worked towards breeding that coat fault out. Bred to the right stud cat, her first litter produced 3 kittens and none of them had that fault. I doubt I would have succeeded so easily if I'd been trying to correct a confomation fault.



Shell195 said:


> My friend who breeds GSD breeds for tempermant and as close to the breed standard as possible and most of her puppies go to pet homes. A few long coats appear in most litters and these are usually the first to sell as they are very pretty dogs. I think in this breed the problem is that the Long coats arent as waterproof as normal coats which is why they arent allowed to be shown as being a working breed they are meant to be waterproof.


In the beginning GSDs were bred with both coats, it was only when a breed standard had to be set that the question mark came over which coat was the right one and they chose the short coat, because of the undercoat which helped to make it waterproof, which was desirable for a working dog who would be out in all weathers. That's what I read when I was researching when I got my long coat GSD.

My chosen cat breed is a Somali which is a longhaired Abyssinian. Due to outcrossing in times of need, such as wars and depleting numbers, the longhair gene was inadvertently introduced. So in the 50s, 60s and 70s some Abys were producing longhaired kittens and these were frowned on by the Aby breeders. Anything that produced a longhair kittens was not bred from and eventually they have eliminated the longhair gene from Abys in this country. Whether that could be done in GSDs is debatable because it has been there since the breed evolved in the 1800s.


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## Evie

KathyM said:


> I don't see how breeding a longcoated version of a shorthaired dog *is* improving them petwise? Coming from not just a pet owner's standpoint but also that of a fosterer/rescuer, adding the long coat to an otherwise suitable dog is surely making it less suitable for a pet home, not more. The amount of longcoated GSDs I've seen get handed in purely because of their grooming needs is not unsubstantial.


The reason they were handed in isn't because of the long coats, its because the breeder didn't educate and vet the owners properly. When you have breeds like OESDs and American cockers and briards, having too much coat isn't a good argument against them. Having along coat doesnt make them a better pet or a worse one - its of little consquence since a standard coat akita or GSD will still leave your house looking fluffy at moult time :lol2:

It boils down to accepting the fact that people *do* choose dogs based on looks, they *don't* research properly and they end up with dogs they can't manage. It isn't an ideal world and people can be complete numptys about buying dogs, so it falls to the breeder to do the best they can to ensure that the dogs they breed will fit into society. Whether that is by breeding to a physical blue print or some other criteria. The purpose of the dogs that are being bred is not really relevant - its about breeding healthy dogs of sound temperament and then selling them responsibly. 
Wouldn't it be fantastic if it was possible to judge a breeder based on a different set of rules for example: 

Number of puppies they bred:
landed in rescue.
pts or treated for behavioural issues. 
treated for hereditary conditions.
How many acheived Good Citizens award. 
Longevity of puppies

My older collie was bred by a friend for no particular reason that I am aware of - she had 3 puppies. She kept two and gave me one. No money involved, no show ring, non in rescue. It was what she did with the puppies born that mattered - not why she bred them.


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## ryanr1987

KathyM said:


> There are some dogs that suit their long coats, that Akita isn't one of.


 this is just you own opinion i founsd in an article years ago that they where bred to withstand cold wether. also they can be used as protectors so the coat helps.


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## KathyM

Hmm but would she have had the same story if the dog had had 14? I'm not anti-breeding by a long shot but I think you really have to have a very strong reason to do it with dogs, specifically to improve the breed (whether in conformation and health, or working ability and temperament, or a mix of all). Not judging your friend there but if we bring it back to the original post, then I'm not sure pureposefully breeding for the long-coated akitas serves any purpose when it is restricting their uses and potentially making them harder to home. One would question the intentions of anyone wanting to breed pureposefully for a dog that isn't to standard. You just have to see previous "fad" examples of breeds sold for twice as much but to dodgey standards. 

There is also the question of what the gene for hair length changes internally with the dog too - although coat length may not be considered one (I don't know if this is the case), genetic mutations can come with linked health defects. If someone was wanting to intentionally breed a dog that was not to standard and select towards a genetic mutation (again, if that's what the coat length comes down to) there is ethically a lot more for them to consider, including the possibility of having to keep all offspring from the first few generations. The idea of someone just doing it to feed a fad market and get some dosh is very frightening.


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## Schip

Have spoken with a few Akita breeders I know, my breed is in the same group so I meet up with many of them at shows, much has been discussed about the longcoated Akita. Many are concerned and rightly so about the byb by passing their Endorsements, breeding JUST for the pet market and not worrying about health testing because basically Joe Public neither know or care about such things.

Anyone who thinks a show dog isn't bred for, amongst other things, good temperament is deluded, sorry but a show dog travels many hundreds of miles to attend shows with Thousands of other dogs. Any bad temperament is removed asap no breeder wants their reputation to be tarnished in such a manner, their fellow breeders would make it their business to remove such things from the breed.

The public drive the market for any breed/cross/coat length etc no matter how hard many show breeders work to safeguard the breeds, puppies etc there's always some unscrupulous individual on the look out for the next money making trend. Many many breed clubs dread seeing an example of their breed used on TV as it follows very quickly the demand rises and folk don't want to wait. All of a sudden previous puppy buyers are breeding from Endorsed animals to make a bit of money. Show breeders Endorse their progeny for many reasons but foremost for Health, eg friend in Newfies, health tests all clear but cardiac specialist advises no breeding from X bitch due to a minor kink in a vessel which won't affect her but will her progeny. Now had that been an unscrupulous breeder they'd have used her anyway with clear health tests and ignored the specialist vets findings outside the remit of the health tests. In this case said bitch was neutered but continued her show career and becoming a Champion.

I would suggest you contact breeders NOW with your wish to own a long coat akita as the good responsible people will have waiting lists.


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## KathyM

ryanr1987 said:


> this is just you own opinion i founsd in an article years ago that they where bred to withstand cold wether. also they can be used as protectors so the coat helps.


Ahh sorry, I didn't realise normal Akitas had such poor acclimation to the cold with their lovely thick short coat? </sarcasm>

Do you live in the Arctic lol. :lol2:


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## ryanr1987

wow what a beauty





































http://www.daydreamakitas.com/longcoatedakita.html


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## ryanr1987

KathyM said:


> Ahh sorry, I didn't realise normal Akitas had such poor acclimation to the cold with their lovely thick short coat? </sarcasm>
> 
> Do you live in the Arctic lol. :lol2:


 akitas ae not bred for the cold like malamtrs they are a jap breed. doesnt matter where i live i sohuld be aloud to get what ever dog i wish. you dont have a very open mind do you. long coat akitas can beniit the breed in many way such as lock guarding although not normally used they have been and the coat helps very much


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## KathyM

ryanr1987 said:


> akitas ae not bred for the cold like malamtrs they are a jap breed. doesnt matter where i live i sohuld be aloud to get what ever dog i wish. you dont have a very open mind do you. long coat akitas can beniit the breed in many way such as lock guarding although not normally used they have been and the coat helps very much





> The Akita or sometimes referred to as Akita Ken, is a large sized dog that has its origins from Japan. Its name comes from Akita Prefecture, which is located in the Tohoku Region in Japan, because it is believed that the Akita originated from this particular area.





> Understanding Tohoku
> 
> Traditionally a poor rural backwater with a harsh climate, today's Tohoku offers the traveller some of the best scenery in Japan. In winter, the Snow Country (Yukiguni) of the western Japan Sea coast racks up some of the highest snowfall figures in the world, which also means great skiing and lots of hot springs to warm up in.





> As a northern breed, the appearance of the Akita reflects cold weather adaptations essential to their original function.


That took two minutes of Googling - one would hope that anyone interested in owning or breeding Akitas would spend considerably longer reading up on the breed they want. :whistling2:


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## ryanr1987

KathyM said:


> That took two minutes of Googling - one would hope that anyone interested in owning or breeding Akitas would spend considerably longer reading up on the breed they want. :whistling2:


 you dont listern do you the longer coat helps with colder climates not just japan. and it can also helps when they use for flock guarding


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## Evie

KathyM said:


> *Hmm but would she have had the same story if the dog had had 14?* I'm not anti-breeding by a long shot but I think you really have to have a very strong reason to do it with dogs, specifically to improve the breed (whether in conformation and health, or working ability and temperament, or a mix of all). Not judging your friend there but if we bring it back to the original post, then I'm not sure pureposefully breeding for the long-coated akitas serves any purpose when it is restricting their uses and potentially making them harder to home. One would question the intentions of anyone wanting to breed pureposefully for a dog that isn't to standard. You just have to see previous "fad" examples of breeds sold for twice as much but to dodgey standards.
> 
> *There is also the question of what the gene for hair length changes internally with the dog too* - although coat length may not be considered one (I don't know if this is the case), genetic mutations can come with linked health defects. If someone was wanting to intentionally breed a dog that was not to standard and select towards a genetic mutation (again, if that's what the coat length comes down to) there is ethically a lot more for them to consider, including the possibility of having to keep all offspring from the first few generations. The idea of someone just doing it to feed a fad market and get some dosh is very frightening.


Well at the time she had 2 huskies and one collie. Now she has 5 collies and about 10 huskies which she races, so yes I reckon she would :lol2:


I don't think there is an issue with coat length and internal changes - it's been around in GSDs from the start, but I agree it's something to consider when introducing new traits. 

Schip I'm not down on show breeders at all but you have to acknowledge that not *all *show breeders are whiter than white. 
We know there are show dogs with health and temperament issues. The trophys can sometimes be as blinding to show breeders as the £££ are to the BYBs.
I wouldn't tarnish all show breeders with the same brush, nor would I make judgements about someone responsibly breeding nice healthy pet dogs.
I don't breed anything so I am completely unbiased.

I worked for a brief time in a Samoyed kennel and the owner who was an international judge reckoned that many of the show sammys would freeze to death in lapland because their coats were so soft and fluffy and offered no protection.


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## Schip

KathM

You would hope wouldn't you? Believe me they don't, I have a rule of thumb when dealing with puppy enquiries if they ask about price in that first call they're not getting a pup of mine! I am slightly more forgiving on the pronounciation of the breed name lol.


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## Evie

Schip said:


> KathM
> 
> You would hope wouldn't you? Believe me they don't, I have a rule of thumb when dealing with puppy enquiries if they ask about price in that first call they're not getting a pup of mine! I am slightly more forgiving on the pronounciation of the breed name lol.


I would have exactly the same attitude :2thumb:


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## KathyM

LOL I've always wondered that one. Schipperke is the breed you breed I presume? Then there's Boerboel (which I always call Baubles lol) and Groenendaals, Lakenois, etc etc. :lol2:


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## Schip

KathyM said:


> LOL I've always wondered that one. Schipperke is the breed you breed I presume? Then there's Boerboel (which I always call Baubles lol) and Groenendaals, Lakenois, etc etc. :lol2:


Only took me 2 yrs to learn how to spell Schipperke, am a terrible dyslexic so tended to do a phonetic spelling ie Skipper- Key but then my friends in Finland, Sweden and Germany all roar at our pronounciations in the English speaking world!

Groenendals I'm told by a breeder friend in Finland is Gron endal and Lakenois is Lak enois - wish they'd write them that way. 

On the breeding front I HATE IT with a passion! There I'm a show breeder making a public announcement but I genuinely hate breeding, I'm more a trainer/handler puppies are just not nice. Prospective owners are another negative trying to sift through all those folk who say all the right things but ya instincts screamm NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I have a litter due in 10 days, am full of dread, have a waiting list of some 12 potential homes (normal litter size is 4 opps lol), many of whom have already visited to meet the family etc. My last litter was 3 1/2 yrs ago and come 3 wks the pups and mother will move down the garden to my partner in the dogs for the rest of their rearing, she loves it all and is more than welcome to them until they're ready for some training.


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## feorag

Schip said:


> I have a rule of thumb when dealing with puppy enquiries if they ask about price in that first call they're not getting a pup of mine! I am slightly more forgiving on the pronounciation of the breed name lol.


Mine too! The phone call that starts "I see you have some kittens for sale, how much are they?" I usually answered with "Too much for you to afford, but thanks for your interest" and hung up. The ones who started "I see you have some kittens for sale, can you tell me something about the breed, because I haven't heard of it" got an explanation and usually came to see them.


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## ryanr1987

feorag said:


> Mine too! The phone call that starts "I see you have some kittens for sale, how much are they?" I usually answered with "Too much for you to afford, but thanks for your interest" and hung up. The ones who started "I see you have some kittens for sale, can you tell me something about the breed, because I haven't heard of it" got an explanation and usually came to see them.


a lot of people want to know if it's in there budget that's kinder rude. people how are people meant to know if they dont ask


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## feorag

If it's the first question they ask, then they've done no research and if the money governs whether they buy a kitten from me, then it's my prerogative to say no.

If they asked about the breed and my kittens and then the price, then I would tell them the price and if they said that was more than they expected, I would tell them that if the home was right I would review the price.

I've bought a few pedigree animals in my lifetime and the price was never the first question I asked, even though I've never had a lot of spare money and have always had to live on a budget.


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## ryanr1987

feorag said:


> If it's the first question they ask, then they've done no research and if the money governs whether they buy a kitten from me, then it's my prerogative to say no.
> 
> If they asked about the breed and my kittens and then the price, then I would tell them the price and if they said that was more than they expected, I would tell them that if the home was right I would review the price.
> 
> I've bought a few pedigree animals in my lifetime and the price was never the first question I asked, even though I've never had a lot of spare money and have always had to live on a budget.


 fair enough if it's the first question. i'd be more interested in knowing about the parents before anything and i'd do the research about the breed before. i wouldnt't sell anyone anthing if they knew bog all about the breed. have seen it with huskies people dont know how hectic they can be and are surprized when they get it and want to get rid of it


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## feorag

ryanr1987 said:


> fair enough if it's the first question.


That's what I said! :whistling2:


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## ryanr1987

feorag said:


> That's what I said! :whistling2:


 you said if it's what they ask on the first phone call,


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## ryanr1987

oh it was the other person who said that :blush:


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## Shell195

When I bred Siamese cats I also declined if the price was the first question they asked. When I was looking to buy a Sphynx kitten I already knew that one would set me back up to £1000 so it was no shock when I was eventually told the price.


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## midori

Shell195 said:


> When I bred Siamese cats I also declined if the price was the first question they asked. When I was looking to buy a Sphynx kitten I already knew that one would set me back up to £1000 so it was no shock when I was eventually told the price.


 
Yes, I do think price is something people will have a rough idea of if they have done their research, and therefore it will be an after thought to ask, rather than a priority.


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## Schip

ryanr1987 said:


> oh it was the other person who said that :blush:


Yep and I'll stick to it anyone calling me and asking about price on that first call is a red flag as far as my experience is concerned, you think its rude fine but I'm not the only breeder who feels that way.

Coat colour and length can have a devastating effect on progeny, take the blue gene in some breeds its lethal ergo undesirable but very sought after in others. In my own breed and several others it is a fatal flaw at worst or sever hair loss from 2nd adult moult onwards with skin problems so we work very hard to avoid producing the colour. There have been instances of byb's offering them at a very high price due to their 'rare' colour and many owners learning the hard way just how devastating it is for the dogs just because their coat happens to be blue. 

Without science breeding is the only way we find out there is a problem, its not a case of not allowing anyone to have these rareties its for the sake of the breed/pups we try to avoid them. Yes long coats occur in litters of GSD's Rotties and Akita's but as yet no one is sure just how much the mutation affects the dog in general in Rotties or akita's, just because there appears no problem in GSD's doesn't mean to say its the same for other breeds.


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## JulieNoob

ryanr1987 said:


> i have a long coated gsd and have owned short coats and the long coat is alot more water proof i dont know if its just her though lol



The standard coats are far more weatherproof - most LC GSD lack undercoat.


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## ovcharkauk

hiya hun 
try these ads 
Preloved | long haired black an white 10mth akita 4 sale for sale in Old Trafford Manchester, Manchester, UK

this ad is someone with a longhaired looking for a stud so they may have a litter soon Preloved | long haired akita bitch seeking prince charming wanted in Plymouth, Devon, UK

sometime's dave at redwitch has longhaired akitas give him a ring really nice man contact 

we got are longcoat in southampton 4 yrs ago now not sure if they are still breeding will try and find there number 

this is my site AKITA EXPERIENCE ::


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## ryanr1987

ovcharkauk said:


> hiya hun
> try these ads
> Preloved | long haired black an white 10mth akita 4 sale for sale in Old Trafford Manchester, Manchester, UK
> 
> this ad is someone with a longhaired looking for a stud so they may have a litter soon Preloved | long haired akita bitch seeking prince charming wanted in Plymouth, Devon, UK
> 
> sometime's dave at redwitch has longhaired akitas give him a ring really nice man contact
> 
> we got are longcoat in southampton 4 yrs ago now not sure if they are still breeding will try and find there number
> 
> this is my site AKITA EXPERIENCE ::


 Thanks a lot for that   you site has some very good info aswell


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## ryanr1987

JulieNoob said:


> The standard coats are far more weatherproof - most LC GSD lack undercoat.


 mine certainly doesn;t and is a lot more water proof then shrot coat gsds maybe it's just mine though


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## Shell195

My GSD is a normal coat and the water just runs off her as her coat is that dense


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## ovcharkauk

thanks iv not done anything to it for a long time now 

The longcoat is much better than the shortcoat more chilled out but when needs be will stick up for them selfs , Hope you get one :2thumb: they are a lovely


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## ovcharkauk

ryanr1987 said:


> mine certainly doesn;t and is a lot more water proof then shrot coat gsds maybe it's just mine though


the longhaird akita has a very thick undercoat and is very waterproof 
but the only downfull is when they blow there coats you know about it hahaha we get about 2 black bags full :gasp:


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## ryanr1987

ovcharkauk said:


> the longhaird akita has a very thick undercoat and is very waterproof
> but the only downfull is when they blow there coats you know about it hahaha we get about 2 black bags full :gasp:


haha i have a long coat gsd and she sheds to an olympic standerd :lol2: so i can imagen how a long haired akita is :lol2: there so gorgeous


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## feorag

Shell195 said:


> My GSD is a normal coat and the water just runs off her as her coat is that dense


We had both, together - one short and one long (and his coat was really long) and there was no question which one had the waterproof coat - the short hair.


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## Emmaj

Shell195 said:


> My GSD is a normal coat and the water just runs off her as her coat is that dense


 
my huskies are the same it runs off an holds on lol so when its been raining they bring it all in with them 

any breed will differ to its surroundings and how its kept 

a dog kept outdoors will adapt an out door coat an one kept indoors the same too 

tbh people have different prefferances and who is anyone to judge


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## corny girl

robstaine said:


> it looks like a chow cross



My thoughts exactly :lol2:. I love the "normal" Akita's, such a lovely breed but can be very strong willed. I used to know some breeders in Portsmouth who had them for years & they said you can't keep more than one male or they'd kill each other (i guess that's why they are Japanese fighting Dogs).


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## ryanr1987

corny girl said:


> My thoughts exactly :lol2:. I love the "normal" Akita's, such a lovely breed but can be very strong willed. I used to know some breeders in Portsmouth who had them for years & they said you can't keep more than one male or they'd kill each other (i guess that's why they are Japanese fighting Dogs).


 they can be very dog aggressive with the same sex, there very dominant with other dogs. you can keep two males if both are rasied together but i woldn't they will be always challenging eachother and oe will be dominating the othe have seen it before not good idear but some have kept them successful


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