# Bedroom Sellers



## Scales and Fangs

As they are commonly referred to in the trade are a massive thorn in the side of genuine hard working reptile shops. 

I am seeing more and more of these online shops popping up, they look very flash and offer the latest products and 9 out of 10 times, they are stupidly cheap. Well thats for one reason, they have no overheads or outgoings, they won't be VAT registered and most likely not declaring any earnings at all.

Most of them have a drop ship account with a wholesaler, this means, the product they are advertising is held at the suppliers, you order it and pay for it, the bedroom seller orders it from their drop ship supplier and they pay for it (less than what you have obviously) and the drop shipper sends it to you. The bedroom seller is cashing in for doing nothing.

What this means is, the more this goes on, the more damage that is caused to the independent shops that are hard working. Forcing closure due to them not being able to compete is this already hard industry.

How to spot these websites.

Telephone number - All online shops must have a contact number. In this case, look for a landline number.

Address - You will be suprised how many ive found with no address in the contact us page, just an email address. If there is no address readily available, look at the returns policy, there should be an address in there. Once you have found that, enter it into google maps and look on the street view, ive found some nice houses!!

If there is no landline phone number or a business address, alarm bells should ring.

Support your hard working reptile shops and stop these greedy people from destroying what we do.


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## mstypical

If the exact same product is for sale for £50 in a shop, and £30 from a 'bedroom seller', I will save £20 over supporting a business or franchise any day. I'd like to be in a financial position to be able to buy a bit more ethically, but i'm not


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## AilsaM

Scales and Fangs said:


> As they are commonly referred to in the trade are a massive thorn in the side of genuine hard working reptile shops.
> 
> I am seeing more and more of these online shops popping up, they look very flash and offer the latest products and 9 out of 10 times, they are stupidly cheap. Well thats for one reason, they have no overheads or outgoings, they won't be VAT registered and most likely not declaring any earnings at all.
> 
> Most of them have a drop ship account with a wholesaler, this means, the product they are advertising is held at the suppliers, you order it and pay for it, the bedroom seller orders it from their drop ship supplier and they pay for it (less than what you have obviously) and the drop shipper sends it to you. The bedroom seller is cashing in for doing nothing.
> 
> What this means is, the more this goes on, the more damage that is caused to the independent shops that are hard working. Forcing closure due to them not being able to compete is this already hard industry.
> 
> How to spot these websites.
> 
> Telephone number - All online shops must have a contact number. In this case, look for a landline number.
> 
> Address - You will be suprised how many ive found with no address in the contact us page, just an email address. If there is no address readily available, look at the returns policy, there should be an address in there. Once you have found that, enter it into google maps and look on the street view, ive found some nice houses!!
> 
> If there is no landline phone number or a business address, alarm bells should ring.
> 
> Support your hard working reptile shops and stop these greedy people from destroying what we do.


I agree with the above 100%, I would rather give buy whatever I need from good well known businesses where they have a good reputation and along with them local businesses too rather than than buy from places like you've stated.


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## AilsaM

ERAC said:


> The independent reptile shop is the back bone of the industry and keeps the wholesalers goung. Helping the bedroom sellers destroy the independents and you'll end up kissing the industry goodbye.


Well said Erac, all of the independent reptile shops play a huge part in the hobby and I for one would rather give my money to them to support their business whether it be buying reptiles, equipment, decor, food etc etc.


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## bigd_1

me i will shop not just for the best price but a good shop what i do not like is when is all RRP as this is just a big mark up that shops think there can get a way whive so can see y people go to bedroom sellers


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## charlesthompson

Absolutely agree with scales and fangs. The bricks and mortar built the wholesalers, just for them to cannabalise their own business. They dont care about the hobby just profit streams. It stinks. Doesnt help when you have advertisments in pet product marketing saying bolt on this bolt on that profit profit profit. Then writers saying shop owners should pay the 24.99 plus vat for a corn from a wholesaler willingly. When we can soruce them at a price that allows them to compete with hobbyists. Shops have never had it worse.


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## cokacola

I'm not a shop owner, but from what I gather, some wholesalers are worse than others for this type of thing and I believe that one is now stating that various products cannot be sold on eBay or Amazon without prior consent.


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## Scales and Fangs

mstypical said:


> If the exact same product is for sale for £50 in a shop, and £30 from a 'bedroom seller', I will save £20 over supporting a business or franchise any day. I'd like to be in a financial position to be able to buy a bit more ethically, but i'm not


I understand about about the financial situation people are in and this is what the bedroom seller is aiming at but unfortunately its not them that will keep this industry going. Imagine all the independent shops close down. You can kiss goodbye to your hobby. The bedroom seller wont give a toss, they'll move on to another industry and do the same there.


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## Bradleybradleyc

Thanks for the heads up on bedroom sellers, I now know what to look out for.

Looking back at some of the companies I have brought from I am GUILTY :blush:

At least I know now

PS for electrical items ie stats etc would you still get the warranty from the manufacture ?


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## Scales and Fangs

cokacola said:


> I'm not a shop owner, but from what I gather, some wholesalers are worse than others for this type of thing and I believe that one is now stating that various products cannot be sold on eBay or Amazon without prior consent.


Youre right that some are worse. In fact one in particular has caused this problem but I wont go into naming names.

The one you refer to about not allowing sales an amazon and ebay is one that is fighting from the same corner as I am. They have set up an authorised seller scheme. In order to sell their goods online you have to prove good business ethics and not devalue the high quality product that they produce.


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## Scales and Fangs

Bradleybradleyc said:


> Thanks for the heads up on bedroom sellers, I now know what to look out for.
> 
> Looking back at some of the companies I have brought from I am GUILTY :blush:
> 
> At least I know now
> 
> PS for electrical items ie stats etc would you still get the warranty from the manufacture ?


Yes that should still stand as long as you have proof of purchase. You are more than welcome to come to us if you have an issue with any electrics and proof of purchase and we will liase with the manufacturer on your behalf.


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## Bradleybradleyc

Scales and Fangs said:


> Yes that should still stand as long as you have proof of purchase. You are more than welcome to come to us if you have an issue with any electrics and proof of purchase and we will liase with the manufacturer on your behalf.


Thats very kind of yourself mate, I will be more cautious in the future of whom I buy from, I don't like seeing family businesses going down the gutter, just because people want to save 50p here and here. 

I have never thought of bedroom sellers apart from on ebay :blush: rather naive really


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## Scales and Fangs

Bradleybradleyc said:


> Thats very kind of yourself mate, I will be more cautious in the future of whom I buy from, I don't like seeing family businesses going down the gutter, just because people want to save 50p here and here.
> 
> I have never thought of bedroom sellers apart from on ebay :blush: rather naive really


Not naive at all mate, these sites look as good as the rest, theres just nothing attached to the back end of it.

The purpose of this thread is to educate people and help support true hard working businesses.


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## Gratenkutzombie

Recently bought an exo terra 45cm double canopy from my local rep shop. Off ebay around £20-£25. From the reptile shop it was £50.


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## mstypical

Scales and Fangs said:


> I understand about about the financial situation people are in and this is what the bedroom seller is aiming at but unfortunately its not them that will keep this industry going. Imagine all the independent shops close down. You can kiss goodbye to your hobby. The bedroom seller wont give a toss, they'll move on to another industry and do the same there.


Wouldn't have to kiss goodbye to the hobby though really. Shops and sales are gradually moving to online only sales, this 'hobby' I suspect is no different. I've not bought from a shop in years, my frozen supplies come from RS Reptiles (who have an address, but not one I can go down to for a browse), my animals have come from breeders off this forum, and what equipment I need I buy from somewhere like eBay, which offers a level of buyer protection. 

What is the difference between a bedroom seller and a start-up family business? An address, a physical shop with stock on show? 

This thread has shown you that some people prefer shops, and some don't. As long as you are competitively priced compared to other shops and your customer service is good, I don't see these 'bedroom sellers' pose anywhere near as much of a threat to your business as you think they do.


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## sharpstrain

Unfortunately the majority of people are likely to be wallet led, especially when times are so hard. 

Perhaps bona fide retailers could do more to help the cash strapped public. loyaly cards, lay away schemes, points schemes. 

It is difficult though when you walk into a shop and an ahs heater is 125 (and they have to order it) when you can get them online for £88.


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## Mynki

Scales and Fangs said:


> Youre right that some are worse. In fact one in particular has caused this problem but I wont go into naming names.
> 
> The one you refer to about not allowing sales an amazon and ebay is one that is fighting from the same corner as I am. They have set up an authorised seller scheme. In order to sell their goods online you have to prove good business ethics and not devalue the high quality product that they produce.


Does that wholesaler begin with the letter A by any chance?


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## Scales and Fangs

Mynki said:


> Does that wholesaler begin with the letter A by any chance?


Nope lol


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## kenobi

Wholesaler that's begins with a P?


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## davree

Another point to take on board is that decent rep shops are few and far between, many people dont have one within a reasonable distance of their homes meaning shopping online is their only means of obtaining the products they need. 
People shopping online will ALWAYS look for the cheapest option including postage which is more often than not, cheaper than buying the same product from a shop but most likely to be from a 'bedroom seller'.
I personally have no issue with it as long as I get what I want for a decent price.
The problem I have is why are shops so much more expensive? (Yes I understand that there are overheads). For example I recently needed some heat mats (6), my nearest rep shop, which is a 1.5hour round trip away charges £20 for the ones I need, plus I would have to wait until weekend to go and get them as I work Mon-Fri, so £120 for the mats plus time and petrol. I can get the exact same product online for £11.50 each (£69 for 6) and only pay one postage charge of £3.50 (total £72.50)for next day delivery - a saving of £47.50!! - no brainer in my opinion.


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## Kelfezond

The point about loyalty cards or such is a good one.

I try hard to support my local shop, when it comes to cheap purchases or last minute purchases they're my go to guys simply because I don't want to see them disappear;
Live food like crickets I don't buy online,
Little plastic water bowls I don't buy online,
Light bulbs or replaceable stuff I don't buy online. 

But setting up a rack would just cost me an absolute fortune if I didn't shop online.

Setting up a vivarium would be the same, the price for fake leaves from my local reptile shop is insulting. 

I bought my first royal python from them for £60, a normal male born that year. Now it's been a few years (4) since then but I know that price is huge for a normal male royal, I can only assume that price is there for people like I was shopping for their first pet snake unaware of the amount of them for sale much cheaper.

Getting back to my original point, I would be much more likely to purchase from my local shop if I were rewarded for my loyalty. (That being said they are a nice shop and I do occasionally get the old half price box of crickets, still not enough to warrant me spending so much more on equipment)


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## EssexReptile Ross

Scales and Fangs said:


> As they are commonly referred to in the trade are a massive thorn in the side of genuine hard working reptile shops.
> 
> I am seeing more and more of these online shops popping up, they look very flash and offer the latest products and 9 out of 10 times, they are stupidly cheap. Well thats for one reason, they have no overheads or outgoings, they won't be VAT registered and most likely not declaring any earnings at all.
> 
> Most of them have a drop ship account with a wholesaler, this means, the product they are advertising is held at the suppliers, you order it and pay for it, the bedroom seller orders it from their drop ship supplier and they pay for it (less than what you have obviously) and the drop shipper sends it to you. The bedroom seller is cashing in for doing nothing.
> 
> What this means is, the more this goes on, the more damage that is caused to the independent shops that are hard working. Forcing closure due to them not being able to compete is this already hard industry.
> 
> How to spot these websites.
> 
> Telephone number - All online shops must have a contact number. In this case, look for a landline number.
> 
> Address - You will be suprised how many ive found with no address in the contact us page, just an email address. If there is no address readily available, look at the returns policy, there should be an address in there. Once you have found that, enter it into google maps and look on the street view, ive found some nice houses!!
> 
> If there is no landline phone number or a business address, alarm bells should ring.
> 
> Support your hard working reptile shops and stop these greedy people from destroying what we do.


Well said Rob! :notworthy:

A pet peeve of mine is seeing people say that they buy from these bedroom dropshippers to "Support the little guy"

What some of these people aren't aware of is that these bedroom sellers are (usually) in full time work, and their drop-ship business usually accounts for some extra beer money at the weekend, whilst you may think you are buying from somebody who is trying their hardest to break into the market and needs all the support they can get the reality is that you are buying from somebody who has no intention of ever moving away from bedroom selling as its just too easy for them. These guys tend to make about 30p on a £20.00 sale, by supporting the "little guy" you are realistically just lining the wholesalers pockets, and paying a middle man a small percentage because he managed to set up a website. Don't expect any support from this guy when your order is picked wrong by the wholesaler, He will be at work and far to busy to help you during the day.

The real little guys, are the likes of Scales and Fangs, Livefoods by Post, Livefoods UK, Blue Lizard, and us at Essex Reptile. Just because we offer a professional service and trade from a Business premises that doesn't make us faceless corporates, it just means we are responsible retailers who take the hobby seriously. 

Before I worked in the trade I received great service online from Livefoods by post, Blue lizard and Essex Reptile, I used to drive up to Southend to collect my frozen food from Scales and Fangs and the service was Brilliant, Rob went out of his way to help me out and it was always a pleasure to deal with him. I am also GUILTY of ordering from some of the bedroom sellers, One of which claimed my order was lost in the post but it wasn't their problem (I never received a refund) and another which sent me a smashed UV lamp and again told me it wasn't their problem (3 weeks later I got a part refund which covered the postage I had paid)

Another pet peeve of mine is the question: why don't you just do it cheaper then?

The answer is that WE CAN'T! Unlike the bedroom drop-shippers we have overheads to cover, You may think they are doing you a favour by selling you a product for 2% more than the trade price but what they actually doing is destroying the trade, and in turn the Hobby. Without shops the Hobby gets no exposure, without exposure the trade will shrink, Without the trade the Hobby is unsupported, and without support the Hobby dies. 

We will be here supporting the hobby for as long as we can, regardless of circumstances, but when the bedroom drop-shippers think they can make more money drop-shipping shoes, guess where they are going to go :whistling2:


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## samurai

I remember there being a thread on this subject a few weeks/months ago. I only buy things for my animals online that are harder to come by from a shop and they are usually just small items. I don't want to see rep shops disappear, partly because I like going to view the animals and it's easier to ask questions or return items if they are not right. I'd rather support a decent business and pay slightly more than see my favourite shops disappear. I'll also happily drive to shops that aren't that local if they are knowledgeable and have what I'm after. I don't think I've bought anything off a bedroom seller but can't be 100%


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## Mynki

Scales and Fangs said:


> Nope lol


I think I know who it will be then. The company I refer too has introduced a similar policy about selling brands that it has exclusive UK distribution rights too on third party websites. 

From what I can see this decision was a large failure because their customers who were effectively banned from selling particular products just stocked different ranges. :/


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## Jamesah1975

This subject can be related to anything tbh. I work/manage/direct a kitchen and bathroom showroom in central Brum, and we have had this conversation many times over the past years since times became more of a struggle. Yes you get online shoppers (myself included) but we have never really lost a great deal of business to online competitors. But what I do know is that just because people are selling from their bedrooms doesn't really mean overheads are low. Deliveries, admin, packing, returns all add up to a cost. I will give an example. For three years we ran an online company selling kitchen appliances (ovens hobs hoods refrigeration) and turned over £1m, yes ONE MILLION POUNDS a year. Profit....ZERO!!! With the prices we had to sell at to be competitive, low margins, and everything I mentioned above, it wasn't worth us carrying on with it. So we closed it, after all, what was the point!?

What i'm getting at is, "bedroom sellers" have to do a huge amount of turnover to make any money at all, give them twelve months, two years when they realise it takes a huge amount of time and effort to earn bugger all, they won't be there, but we will. There is always a space for "shops" regardless of what you sell. Be competitive, go beyond the call of duty with your customer service and we will get regular sales.

Now I know my story above is totally different to the reptile industry, but there are similarities as I have had first hand experience being part of a company that has a 'shop' and has been an online outlet.

Me personally, I buy from all outlets. If there is a bargain to be had online i'll buy it, I purchase regular supplies from my local reptile outlet, Shirley Aquatics. I like the guy who runs the reptile side of things, Tom, who I believe doesn't bullshit me and most importantly is really good with my kids when they constantly fire questions at him about various snakes and lizards. That type of customer service goes a long way with me. Because of this I handed over my hard earned cash for my IJ carpet. And iv'e bought off breeders, Laza of this parish for example.

I believe most will shop where they feel the best bargains are and where the best service is. Let the bedroom sellers have there couple of quid, cause thats all they will make and you, me, everyone that offers quality prices and service reap the rewards in the long run.

Many may or may not agree with much I have said, but that's what I believe.

May I wish you every success Scales And Fangs with your business, I will check you guys out as I have never heard of you before.

Peace!


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## Berber King

Ironically,most of the shops moaning about drop-shippers and SPS etc,still support the wholesaler that does all the damage to the trade.Its no secret who the culprit is........(and as for their huge discounts,easy when their prices are higher than the rest before applying it...)


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## Guest

Bradleybradleyc said:


> Thats very kind of yourself mate, I will be more cautious in the future of whom I buy from, I don't like seeing family businesses going down the gutter, just because people want to save 50p here and here.
> 
> I have never thought of bedroom sellers apart from on ebay :blush: rather naive really


They're unlikely to be bedroom sellers on ebay - that marketplace is far too tricky margin wise for the cheapest to be a bedroom seller. I looked in to it - stocking items (wholesalers give you better terms on stocked items compared to dropship) and you're still looking at making pennies per sale after all expenses. A few quid if you're lucky and its an expensive item.

People on ebay seem to want goods that are practically stolen haha. Does demonstrate however that on the whole people tend to be pocket driven above other aspects.

Good/interesting thread, I would stress its important to recognise the difference between bedroom sellers and internet only retailers however. Not that I really have a problem with bedroom sellers - we all start somewhere (I started on what you might call a dropship basis, not with any of the big wholesalers though, before grabbing some warehouse space etc). Its also remarkably hard to run a business for any real length of time without declaring your earnings.


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## Scales and Fangs

mstypical said:


> Wouldn't have to kiss goodbye to the hobby though really. Shops and sales are gradually moving to online only sales, this 'hobby' I suspect is no different. I've not bought from a shop in years, my frozen supplies come from RS Reptiles (who have an address, but not one I can go down to for a browse), my animals have come from breeders off this forum, and what equipment I need I buy from somewhere like eBay, which offers a level of buyer protection.
> 
> What is the difference between a bedroom seller and a start-up family business? An address, a physical shop with stock on show?
> 
> This thread has shown you that some people prefer shops, and some don't. As long as you are competitively priced compared to other shops and your customer service is good, I don't see these 'bedroom sellers' pose anywhere near as much of a threat to your business as you think they do.


The fact is, shops are closing down and are struggling, most will say it's because they cant compete with the online shops. 

The difference between a bedroom seller and a new start up business is that the people behind the start up business are investing time and money and working damn hard to make it work. The bedroom seller is handed a package on a plate and as long as they are able to set up a website, they are up and running for next to nothing and then they have no labour to worry about as it's all done for them.

Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning online shops, I own one myself but I also have a bricks and mortar shop too. There are legitimate online companies out there that are doing it right, those that have a premises and handle, pick and pack the goods themselves. They are too hard working and set up legit. 



davree said:


> Another point to take on board is that decent rep shops are few and far between, many people dont have one within a reasonable distance of their homes meaning shopping online is their only means of obtaining the products they need.
> People shopping online will ALWAYS look for the cheapest option including postage which is more often than not, cheaper than buying the same product from a shop but most likely to be from a 'bedroom seller'.
> I personally have no issue with it as long as I get what I want for a decent price.
> The problem I have is why are shops so much more expensive? (Yes I understand that there are overheads). For example I recently needed some heat mats (6), my nearest rep shop, which is a 1.5hour round trip away charges £20 for the ones I need, plus I would have to wait until weekend to go and get them as I work Mon-Fri, so £120 for the mats plus time and petrol. I can get the exact same product online for £11.50 each (£69 for 6) and only pay one postage charge of £3.50 (total £72.50)for next day delivery - a saving of £47.50!! - no brainer in my opinion.


I think your missing the point, shops only seem to be very expensive because the likes of bedroom sellers have simply devalued the industry. Some might accuse me of doing the same but trust me, it's only because I am forced to lower prices because of how cut throat this industry has become, luckily for us, we have a big enough set up to get by, and thats what a lot of businesses are doing these days, getting by.



samurai said:


> I remember there being a thread on this subject a few weeks/months ago. I only buy things for my animals online that are harder to come by from a shop and they are usually just small items. I don't want to see rep shops disappear, partly because I like going to view the animals and it's easier to ask questions or return items if they are not right. I'd rather support a decent business and pay slightly more than see my favourite shops disappear. I'll also happily drive to shops that aren't that local if they are knowledgeable and have what I'm after. I don't think I've bought anything off a bedroom seller but can't be 100%


We need more people like you in this industry.



Jamesah1975 said:


> This subject can be related to anything tbh. I work/manage/direct a kitchen and bathroom showroom in central Brum, and we have had this conversation many times over the past years since times became more of a struggle. Yes you get online shoppers (myself included) but we have never really lost a great deal of business to online competitors. But what I do know is that just because people are selling from their bedrooms doesn't really mean overheads are low. Deliveries, admin, packing, returns all add up to a cost. I will give an example. For three years we ran an online company selling kitchen appliances (ovens hobs hoods refrigeration) and turned over £1m, yes ONE MILLION POUNDS a year. Profit....ZERO!!! With the prices we had to sell at to be competitive, low margins, and everything I mentioned above, it wasn't worth us carrying on with it. So we closed it, after all, what was the point!?
> 
> What i'm getting at is, "bedroom sellers" have to do a huge amount of turnover to make any money at all, give them twelve months, two years when they realise it takes a huge amount of time and effort to earn bugger all, they won't be there, but we will. There is always a space for "shops" regardless of what you sell. Be competitive, go beyond the call of duty with your customer service and we will get regular sales.
> 
> Now I know my story above is totally different to the reptile industry, but there are similarities as I have had first hand experience being part of a company that has a 'shop' and has been an online outlet.
> 
> Me personally, I buy from all outlets. If there is a bargain to be had online i'll buy it, I purchase regular supplies from my local reptile outlet, Shirley Aquatics. I like the guy who runs the reptile side of things, Tom, who I believe doesn't bullshit me and most importantly is really good with my kids when they constantly fire questions at him about various snakes and lizards. That type of customer service goes a long way with me. Because of this I handed over my hard earned cash for my IJ carpet. And iv'e bought off breeders, Laza of this parish for example.
> 
> I believe most will shop where they feel the best bargains are and where the best service is. Let the bedroom sellers have there couple of quid, cause thats all they will make and you, me, everyone that offers quality prices and service reap the rewards in the long run.
> 
> Many may or may not agree with much I have said, but that's what I believe.
> 
> May I wish you every success Scales And Fangs with your business, I will check you guys out as I have never heard of you before.
> 
> Peace!


Thanks for your comments mate but what you may be missing about the bedroom seller is that they do not have massive overheads and do not have loads of work to do.

They upload a stock database onto an eCommerce website and set their pricing. They sell a product and then email that order to their supplier. That is there work done, from then on, the supplier will pick it, pack it and despatch it to the customer. 

Their packing and shipping cost is passed on to the customer. for example.

Product X cost seller £10
Shipping £4
Total cost £14 

They then sell like this.

Product X £12
Shipping £4
Total £16

Profit of £2 for doing no work.

This is just an example but it gives you the idea.



Berber King said:


> Ironically,most of the shops moaning about drop-shippers and SPS etc,still support the wholesaler that does all the damage to the trade.Its no secret who the culprit is........(and as for their huge discounts,easy when their prices are higher than the rest before applying it...)


Yes you are right and hopefully this will educate shops as well as the retaillers.


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## Scales and Fangs

FrozenReptile said:


> They're unlikely to be bedroom sellers on ebay - that marketplace is far too tricky margin wise for the cheapest to be a bedroom seller. I looked in to it - stocking items (wholesalers give you better terms on stocked items compared to dropship) and you're still looking at making pennies per sale after all expenses. A few quid if you're lucky and its an expensive item.
> 
> People on ebay seem to want goods that are practically stolen haha. Does demonstrate however that on the whole people tend to be pocket driven above other aspects.
> 
> Good/interesting thread, I would stress its important to recognise the difference between bedroom sellers and internet only retailers however. Not that I really have a problem with bedroom sellers - we all start somewhere (I started on what you might call a dropship basis, not with any of the big wholesalers though, before grabbing some warehouse space etc).


There's nothing wrong with starting off drop shipping, we did that in our first year but this was off the back of an existing business. I wouldn't have considered you to be a bedroom seller, you always seemed to be working hard in the industry and have since progressed into a premises and are legit.


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## LFBP-NEIL

If anyone in the trade wishes to discuss these issues we have a facebook grpup here... https://www.facebook.com/groups/616634785046088/

to join you need to meet this criteria...


> Owns or is recognised representative of an Independent UK based Reptile shop with a bricks and mortar outlet that is licensed and open to the public.


I know this is a bit limiting and it may be expanded out encompass wholesalers and internet only in the future depending on how things pan out.. but its a start lol


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## jward

But what you dont seem to realise is quite a few shops look to much for profit rather tha the service theres only one shop I know in my area that gives you great help great advice and even better prices as my local shops just keep putting prices up to high

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Scales and Fangs

jward said:


> But what you dont seem to realise is quite a few shops look to much for profit rather tha the service theres only one shop I know in my area that gives you great help great advice and even better prices as my local shops just keep putting prices up to high
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


Oh i'm well aware of this, there are some very greedy people out there that don't give a damn about customers, this happens in all walks of life unfortunately.

Some shops are forced to put prices up due to increased rent and bills etc, lets face it, all you hear these days is the price of this and that going up, why isn;t it happening in this industry, well let me tell you it is from the manufacturers and wholesalers but us shops can't increase because of people selling at 3 or 4% profit and no overheads. But when a shop does put prices up, people slag them off for beeing greedy.

In 2007 I was selling livefood at £2.25 a tub, nearly 7 years on, I pay more for the food yet I am forced to charge £2.00 a tub, yet if I was to increase to £2.50, I would be called greedy and just chasing a profit.


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## SiUK

Whilst I support the hobby and think that people should support shops I am personally looking for a cheap price reason being I have a large collection of animals a young family a mortgage to pay, credit cards and loans travel expenses, a lot of different overheads meaning that I am looking to save money where I can in all areas of my life not just reptiles.

In an ideal world I would go down to my local reptile shop and buy everything I need, its not an ideal world and I already work 55+ hours a week every week, everyone is trying to get by, the shops as sellers and us as consumers and we will all do what it takes to support our families and lives.


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## jward

Scales and Fangs said:


> Oh i'm well aware of this, there are some very greedy people out there that don't give a damn about customers, this happens in all walks of life unfortunately.
> 
> Some shops are forced to put prices up due to increased rent and bills etc, lets face it, all you hear these days is the price of this and that going up, why isn;t it happening in this industry, well let me tell you it is from the manufacturers and wholesalers but us shops can't increase because of people selling at 3 or 4% profit and no overheads. But when a shop does put prices up, people slag them off for beeing greedy.
> 
> In 2007 I was selling livefood at £2.25 a tub, nearly 7 years on, I pay more for the food yet I am forced to charge £2.00 a tub, yet if I was to increase to £2.50, I would be called greedy and just chasing a profit.


We are jyst as affected as you are as we look to get our food as local and as cheap as we can but it sadly doesnt work like that which can force people to look elsewere


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## plasma234

I bet these reptile shop owners shop at major supermarkets, not going down to there local butcher, green grocer or bakery. 

i shop by experience first, reputation second then price third. 

this means the only reason i maybe haven't used a bedroom seller is because they don't have a reputation, or a poor one. I will use swell etc, because they have a good reputation, i haven't had issues with them, and they are cheapest. i use my LPS for stuff i want that day, or stuff i'd rather chose in person, decor/branches etc.


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## Scales and Fangs

SiUK said:


> Whilst I support the hobby and think that people should support shops I am personally looking for a cheap price reason being I have a large collection of animals a young family a mortgage to pay, credit cards and loans travel expenses, a lot of different overheads meaning that I am looking to save money where I can in all areas of my life not just reptiles.
> 
> In an ideal world I would go down to my local reptile shop and buy everything I need, its not an ideal world and I already work 55+ hours a week every week, everyone is trying to get by, the shops as sellers and us as consumers and we will all do what it takes to support our families and lives.


I totally get that Si I really do, as i've said before, this is not a pop at the consumer, but it is an attempt at making people aware of who they are buying from. Lets face it, whats to stop these sellers from listing a high end product with a 50% discount, running the campaign over a bank holiday weekend, clawing in hundreds if not thousands of pounds of orders, thats your hard earned cash. Then founding the site without honoring the orders. Of course, even I could do that as a legit business, but the risk is far less. 

As I said, I understand people will buy where its cheaper and this thread has had quite a mixed response.


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## Scales and Fangs

plasma234 said:


> I bet these reptile shop owners shop at major supermarkets, not going down to there local butcher, green grocer or bakery.
> 
> i shop by experience first, reputation second then price third.
> 
> this means the only reason i maybe haven't used a bedroom seller is because they don't have a reputation, or a poor one. I will use swell etc, because they have a good reputation, i haven't had issues with them, and they are cheapest. i use my LPS for stuff i want that day, or stuff i'd rather chose in person, decor/branches etc.


I think you are missing the point, I am expressing an issue with non legit businesses. One I have seen today claims to be a business, very limited stock selling dry goods and frozen food yet they have a link to their other web site where they then claim to be hobbyist breeders selling livestock. So a pet supply company selling livestock under a different name and no pet shop license.


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## HabiStat

A very, very interesting thread......
At HabiStat we receive a large number of trade account requests daily through the web site.
Standard practice is to Google the address. Most all of the requests are generally found to be residential addresses, with a requirement to drop ship for them. They are all promptly declined.
Interestingly most of them come back with often less than courteous words of dissatisfaction and statements that it doesn't matter as they already have accounts with certain other wholesalers.
An important point to be raised with the current rapid decline of the high street shop. 
Unlike many industries that have ended as excusive internet based entities, pet and reptile shops are a little different. No only in the expertise that these shops offer in care and equipment guidance for animals with many different requirements, but do you think that it will be easy to buy your reptiles over the internet when you can no longer get them in stores (as they have all closed) or at breeder meetings? 
I suspect animal trading on line will be very limited (if allowed at all) and all the more difficult because no general couriers will carry livestock?


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## davree

HabiStat said:


> do you think that it will be easy to buy your reptiles over the internet when you can no longer get them in stores (as they have all closed) or at breeder meetings?
> I suspect animal trading on line will be very limited (if allowed at all) and all the more difficult because no general couriers will carry livestock?


Simply no, people would get them the same way as they do now, through forums like this in the same way that people buy dogs, from specialist breeders - you generally dont see them in pet stores anymore yet they are still 'the' pet of choice and more popular than ever. Couriers may be an issue but, where there is demand someone will supply.

The same way as people would buy equipment if the shops closed - online!!

Why would animal trading online be limited if the shops closed?


sent from space using plastic cups and string


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## Guest

I think its important not to take for granted the fact we're "in the hobby" so to speak - physical shops provide a vital entry point to the hobby and it would be a massive shame to loose them. Not everybody knows the reptile world like we do


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## Chris Newman

The sale of reptiles as ‘pets’ from pet shops is still a very important part of the reptile industry and an essential part of the continuing growth and accounts for a very significant bulk of the sales of live reptiles in the UK. 

A decrease in bricks and mortar pet shops will have an adverse effect on the number of people keeping reptiles, typical first time buyers acquire their animal from a pet shop.

On line purchases of livestock is a growing and will continue to grow unless it is prohibited, which is a possibility. That aside sales of reptiles as pet from retail shops is a vital part of the industries growth. 

The fundamental problem is pet shops (reptiles shops) do not make a living from the sale of livestock, dry good and consumables such as live/frozen foods are an essential part of the financial stability of all shops. It is highly unlikely any shop could subsist on animal sales alone.


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## davree

The fundamental problem as I see it is the internet and unless it miraculously disappears overnight the problem will not go away - ever!

The internet enables these 'bedroom sellers' to exist. Also the 'new' reptile keepers who go to a shop initially (myself included) will soon learn that once they have their animal, all the equipment and knowledge is available online at a fraction of the price - in todays financial climate, to most people, price is everthing.

sent from space using plastic cups and string


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## iPHAILZ

I'm afraid the bottom line is the lowest price for same product rules, no matter how hard you try to convince me of an after sales service or the fear of an item not turning up. I have a manufacturers warranty and proof and purchase for that and if an item does not turn up my credit card company will refund me.

Don't get me wrong i will try my best to support local shops but am finding it more and more difficult to justify spending the extra cash as their mark-up seems huge compared to online stores, assuming of course they are buying stock for less than the likes of swell ETC sell to the public.

It's not just the reptile business in this predicament, look at corner shops, butchers ETC closing due to supermarket chains. I'm guessing most of the antis here do their monthly shop at Asda or Tescos though?

I forgot to mention credit where credit is due, i have had A1 service from:

Essex reptile (i'm the welsh guy who's been buying all your 23" heatmats the last couple of months lol )

Wildworld

livefoods (the one that had the fire)

Bluelizard

And believe it or not premierexotics, never had a problem with them either.


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## SK Reptiles

Scales and Fangs said:


> As they are commonly referred to in the trade are a massive thorn in the side of genuine hard working reptile shops.
> 
> I am seeing more and more of these online shops popping up, they look very flash and offer the latest products and 9 out of 10 times, they are stupidly cheap. Well thats for one reason, they have no overheads or outgoings, they won't be VAT registered and most likely not declaring any earnings at all.
> 
> Most of them have a drop ship account with a wholesaler, this means, the product they are advertising is held at the suppliers, you order it and pay for it, the bedroom seller orders it from their drop ship supplier and they pay for it (less than what you have obviously) and the drop shipper sends it to you. The bedroom seller is cashing in for doing nothing.
> 
> What this means is, the more this goes on, the more damage that is caused to the independent shops that are hard working. Forcing closure due to them not being able to compete is this already hard industry.
> 
> How to spot these websites.
> 
> Telephone number - All online shops must have a contact number. In this case, look for a landline number.
> 
> Address - You will be suprised how many ive found with no address in the contact us page, just an email address. If there is no address readily available, look at the returns policy, there should be an address in there. Once you have found that, enter it into google maps and look on the street view, ive found some nice houses!!
> 
> If there is no landline phone number or a business address, alarm bells should ring.
> 
> Support your hard working reptile shops and stop these greedy people from destroying what we do.


What about people like myself who breed snakes as a hobby? Yes, not gonna argue I enjoy selling the snakes and getting money in but my aim is to breed royals I could only dream of buying myself, like this season I am hoping to produce sterling lesser and sterling pastel faders which I couldnt imagine ever buying myself. Am I wrong for doing that?


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## LFBP-NEIL

the only way I can explain the problem in the simplest terms is imagine your job is selling widgets, you buy widgets from the widget seller for £1 and you sell them for £2 after you have paid all your bills you probably make 50p a widget..

Now imagine that your next door neighbor, green with envy at all the (imaginary) vast fortunes you are making selling widgets phones up the widget man and says "hey widget man, I am a widget seller too" and the widget seller says "ok you can buy my widgets for a £1 also"

And then your neighbour thinks, "hmmm how can i sell more widgets than him" so he sells his widgets for £1.50... 

And then his neighbour phones up the widget man and gets a widget account too and sells his for £1.30...

and so on and so on, until the last man to phone the widget seller has now got a widget account and is going to sell his for £1.10...

The first widget retailer has now gone bust and eaten his offspring to survive as it was his job, all the other widget retailers are not all that bothered as during the day they are a butcher, baker and candlestick maker so they dont care if they only make 10p per widget....

Meanwhile the widget buyers are loving it as they have never had widgets so cheap...

So the moral of the story is the general public dont care where they buy their widgets from as long as they are cheap, and the widget maker doesnt give a shit as he has now bought a mansion and a villa in florida, so the real moral of the story is.. dont sell widgets for a living as no one will give a shit..except you.....


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## plasma234

Probably better to cut the middle man then.


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## iPHAILZ

plasma234 said:


> Probably better to cut the middle man then.


This is what this whole thread is based around. My fear with their argument is if they have dominance on a product then profit margins will rise.

Banana royals being a current "product" (maybe not the best example to use but it makes the point) is a fine example of what individuals put a price on because they are in high demand.

And as i stated earlier, sorry if this offends the middle men, but no i don't give a **** about you, why should i, i don't know you or owe you anything so why should i line your pockets when i could buy cheaper elsewhere and give my family a better life with the money i have saved?


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## LFBP-NEIL

Thats my point exactly, And i could try and counter the argument with all the potential positives from buying from a middle man but it would be futile as everyone myself included will take the easiest cheapest option almost everytime. thats not me on a moral highground that is just the cold hard facts of life. 

So the real question is do we still want to continue selling widgets or should we switch to something else where the manufacturer protects and looks after its distributors like lego or new cars lol .


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## plasma234

I am saying I would rather go to widget maker and buy my widget for £1. Until that point I will go to widget retailer x y or z who ever is cheaper. Sellers want profit, buyers want a fair price. 

Knowing that these bedroom sellers don't actually do the difficult bits makes me feel safer in purchasing from them.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Yep they are just like avon ladies..only with reptile supplies lol.


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## Bradleybradleyc

plasma234 said:


> *Knowing that these bedroom sellers don't actually do the difficult bits makes me feel safer in purchasing from them.*


Why does this make you feel safer ???


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## plasma234

Would I rather have bob from down the road picking, packing and shipping my exspensive order, or a large established supplier? Who has better a better packing and logistics department? I didn't know that's how it worked, I thought it was more of household operation, where garage is a warehouse and the dining room is the office. 

That is why I now feel safer. Knowing that bob is just a "shop front"


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## iPHAILZ

An honest assessment from a man in the business is nice to see Neil, instead of whiney posts because some ones profit has taken a dive in recent years.

There's nothing i like more than chatting to the pet shop owner (example of a middle man) but paying 50 quid for something i can get for 35 online, then sorry that's something i won't do. On the other hand i don't expect the owner to do me any favours either, or expect free advice.

I am open minded and should you wish to outline the benefits of a middle man i would be glad to hear, other than a warranty which i would get from the manufacturer and purchase protection from my credit card i am all ears?


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## Mynki

I wonder how many shop owners were hobbyists once upon a time? I wonder how many of these bought goods from bedroom sellers?

I wonder how many bedroom sellers with business accumen make the jump to shop owner? 

We live in a democracy and a free market economy, so people can choose where to spend their hard earned cash. A fact that to me is far, far, far more important shop owners complaining about competition.


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## varanus87

Edit ...... I'm a idiot .... Should have read the thread first rather than diving in concrete boots first ...


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## YoshiHCG

I understand 100% where the OP is coming from with the thoughts behind bedroom sellers. If someone sets up a free website and starts drop shipping and all that and doesn't provide a professional good service I can understand. Shops will forever compete with online but shops have the advantage of being able to talk in person, see the animals and I quite enjoying browsing a good reptile shop and buying little bits and bobs!  
However. 
I buy from shops and online, I do look for cheaper but if a shop has something of interest to me or something I want I will do a day trip and go get it, I travel from Poole to Winchester to go to grange reptiles every so often because they are a nice friendly shop with cool animals and they help me get the reptiles I want in as gets they can. I would also happily travel further if it was worth it. If I need something quick however sometimes buying online is my option, it is more affordable sometimes, and things like repashy for my geckos I can only get big bags online. 
What about though someone wanting to set up a business themselves with reptiles to provide a good professional service alongside their homebred reptiles and do it properly through tax and licensing etc but don't have the facilities to set up a shop? Are they bad too if they have maybe a garage lockup or warehouse with a certain amount of stock but run it from their home as a home business. Is that bad too? If they provide a good professional service and are legit and following the law as a trader/website shop ? Curious if that makes them a bedroom seller because they don't have the full funds to set up a shop but are able to provide the service online and at a decent level? Thoughts please


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## LFBP-NEIL

were talking hardware here not livestock, we love bedroom breeders they are good for the hobby. :2thumb:


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## LFBP-NEIL

the main problem at the moment for us retailers is the availability of goods, whats the point in investing 10 grand into stocking all the latest hardware lines in your reptile shop if your next door neighbour can stock them all without having to invest a penny.. there is none  hence the death knell tolling for the local reptile shop... Im not whinging, im past that stage i have come to terms with my fate, i will eeek it out for as long as possible and retire to sainsburys getting a job pushing trolleys and take my decade of acquired product knowledge with me... unless i can get a lego dealership :2thumb:


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## EssexReptile Ross

varanus87 said:


> Just sounds like shops can't hack the competition ....
> 
> Half the shops I have visited are worse than the bed room seller that has spend his hard earned cash and put many hours into caring for and breeding ....
> 
> Rather than a shop ticking a sp list to get them shipped over for 40 times the price for a ropey half dead parasite infected animal or a super fluffy royal they have just thrown together for a season to make the most money animal ...


You have missed the point of the thread entirely. We are talking about people who are selling dry goods from their bedroom in their spare time for a bit of extra cash, Not Hobbyist Breeders. 

Hobbyist Breeders are by no means a threat to responsible reptile shops. Most of us are breeders ourselves and our stock is either produced by ourselves or bought from other UK Hobbyist breeders. Ropey WC imports might make their way into the odd pet shop, Purely because they have no idea on where to source CB livestock, But you won't see them in a proper reptile shop (such as the ones that have replied to this thread)


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## Chris Newman

YoshiHCG said:


> I understand 100% where the OP is coming from with the thoughts behind bedroom sellers. If someone sets up a free website and starts drop shipping and all that and doesn't provide a professional good service I can understand. Shops will forever compete with online but shops have the advantage of being able to talk in person, see the animals and I quite enjoying browsing a good reptile shop and buying little bits and bobs!
> However.
> I buy from shops and online, I do look for cheaper but if a shop has something of interest to me or something I want I will do a day trip and go get it, I travel from Poole to Winchester to go to grange reptiles every so often because they are a nice friendly shop with cool animals and they help me get the reptiles I want in as gets they can. I would also happily travel further if it was worth it. If I need something quick however sometimes buying online is my option, it is more affordable sometimes, and things like repashy for my geckos I can only get big bags online.
> What about though someone wanting to set up a business themselves with reptiles to provide a good professional service alongside their homebred reptiles and do it properly through tax and licensing etc but don't have the facilities to set up a shop? Are they bad too if they have maybe a garage lockup or warehouse with a certain amount of stock but run it from their home as a home business. Is that bad too? If they provide a good professional service and are legit and following the law as a trader/website shop ? Curious if that makes them a bedroom seller because they don't have the full funds to set up a shop but are able to provide the service online and at a decent level? Thoughts please


From a legal perspective you need to separate sales of livestock from sales of dry goods (equipment etc)

From a legislative view point sales of dry good equipment is effectively unregulated, i.e. you do not need a licences to sell reptile equipment, so in effect anyone can start a business vending equipment be this from a bedroom or a shops. I am unclear precisely on the legal requirements of running such a business from a residential property in terms of planning permission, business rates etc, I assume there are implications!

The sale of livestock (pets) is a different matter and is rather complex, however, broadly speaking if you are trading, i.e. buying in with the intention to sell on, then very clearly you are required to be licensed under the Pet Animals Act, by the Local Authority. A Pet Shop Licence can be granted from a residential property but again I suspect planning permission could be an issue.


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## Mynki

Chris Newman said:


> From a legal perspective you need to separate sales of livestock from sales of dry goods (equipment etc)
> 
> From a legislative view point sales of dry good equipment is effectively unregulated, i.e. you do not need a licences to sell reptile equipment, so in effect anyone can start a business vending equipment be this from a bedroom or a shops. I am unclear precisely on the legal requirements of running such a business from a residential property in terms of planning permission, business rates etc, I assume there are implications!
> 
> The sale of livestock (pets) is a different matter and is rather complex, however, broadly speaking if you are trading, i.e. buying in with the intention to sell on, then very clearly you are required to be licensed under the Pet Animals Act, by the Local Authority. A Pet Shop Licence can be granted from a residential property but again I suspect planning permission could be an issue.


Obviously you need to be registered with HMRC when selling. If you don't have customers visiting your home then there are no issues as far as I'm aware. 

The local council won't have issues with self employed tradesman such as plasterers and painters working from home, so why should there be an issue with people selling goods online of any kind legally if there are no visitors annoying the neighbours etc?


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## Mynki

I should have added Chris, I did used to know a chap in Stoke who was granted a pet shop license for his home. He used to sell coral frags and marine inverts and fish etc via a courier. No customers visited his house etc and he found the application to be quite straightforward with his local council so it can be done.


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## Mynki

Some credible info here :-

https://www.gov.uk/run-business-from-home


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## bigd_1

thing that gets me whit online reptile shops is there price when i was looking for stats the old style so was selling then at full RRP sum whit 40% off but when it come to the new prime 2 stat if you got more that 2p off you was lukey then go to the donny show and pick one up for £100 gives me £30 to spend on more reptile thing


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## YoshiHCG

EssexReptile Ross said:


> You have missed the point of the thread entirely. We are talking about people who are selling dry goods from their bedroom in their spare time for a biyheir extra cash, Not Hobbyist Breeders.
> 
> Hobbyist Breeders are by no means a threat to responsible reptile shops. Most of us are breeders ourselves and our stock is either produced by ourselves or bought from other UK Hobbyist breeders. Ropey WC imports might make their way into the odd pet shop, Purely because they have no idea on where to source CB livestock, But you won't see them in a proper reptile shop (such as the ones that have replied to this thread)


What about people who start off with working their job and doing the business in their evenings and weekends and then building it up as it gets more successful if it does and making it their only job. But still being a home run business with stock in a garage workshop or storehold until they can get an office or something.


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## LFBP-NEIL

bigd_1 said:


> thing that gets me whit online reptile shops is there price when i was looking for stats the old style so was selling then at full RRP sum whit 40% off but when it come to the new prime 2 stat if you got more that 2p off you was lukey then go to the donny show and pick one up for £100 gives me £30 to spend on more reptile thing


Theres less than £15 profit on those products thats why they are never discounted... who was selling them for £100 at donny? (going to send the boys round lol... )


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## EssexReptile Ross

plasma234 said:


> Would I rather have bob from down the road picking, packing and shipping my exspensive order, or a large established supplier? Who has better a better packing and logistics department? I didn't know that's how it worked, I thought it was more of household operation, where garage is a warehouse and the dining room is the office.
> 
> That is why I now feel safer. Knowing that bob is just a "shop front"


I'm afraid it is the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Let me give you an example:

You place an order with Joe Bloggs bedroom reptile supplies, Lets assume he is semi Legit and has some sort of procedures in place, the contract of the sale will lie between you and Joe Bloggs, it is his responsibility to make sure you receive a good service.

Once Joe Bloggs has proccessed your order its the wholesaler, who is under no obligation to you as a customer to provide any type of service at all, that takes over. Their job is to ensure an Item is sent to you on behalf of their customer, they are working to tight deadlines processing hundreds of orders and taking about 30 seconds to pack each one.

*So lets say you order a 36" UV Lamp.*

If you order from Joe Bloggs:

your order will probably be processed in the evening when he gets home from work, so delivery will be within 48 hours (you will pay the price for a 24hr courier)

Your Lamp will be picked and packed in about 30 seconds, Probably 1 or 2 layers of bubble wrap and chucked into a box, at this pace you would be surprised how many errors are made with the picking.

Your lamp will be delivered by the cheapest possible courier, Not the one that provides the best service.

When your lamp arrives, If it has been picked right, and is still in one piece then congratulations, you are very lucky. But if it is the wrong item, or is damaged then who are you going to call to rectify the problem? Joe Bloggs won't have a contact number, at best there will be a contact us form on his website with a 24hr response time. And seeing as Joe Bloggs doesn't hold any stock, Your going back to the start of the process to begin waiting for your item. 

Now lets say your order from Essex Reptile

We do this full time, place an order before 2pm and we will dispatch it same day.

We will pick your lamp from our own shelves, and wrap it to the point you can use it as a lightsaber without any fear of damage.

Your lamp will be delivered by our tried and tested courier, You will be given a 1 hour timeslot so that you don't have to wait in all day

If i have made a mistake and picked your lamp wrong, Or if it does get damaged in transit, you can call me immediately and I will get a replacement out same day.


It goes without saying that you will receive a better service from a company who handles your order from cradle to grave, dropshippers just aren't capable of offering that : victory:


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## YoshiHCG

Chris Newman said:


> From a legal perspective you need to separate sales of livestock from sales of dry goods (equipment etc)
> 
> From a legislative view point sales of dry good equipment is effectively unregulated, i.e. you do not need a licences to sell reptile equipment, so in effect anyone can start a business vending equipment be this from a bedroom or a shops. I am unclear precisely on the legal requirements of running such a business from a residential property in terms of planning permission, business rates etc, I assume there are implications!
> 
> The sale of livestock (pets) is a different matter and is rather complex, however, broadly speaking if you are trading, i.e. buying in with the intention to sell on, then very clearly you are required to be licensed under the Pet Animals Act, by the Local Authority. A Pet Shop Licence can be granted from a residential property but again I suspect planning permission could be an issue.


Obviously if someone wanted to sell dry goods as well as their own homebred stock they could work this into the same application for licensing to have everything covered I assume. I know of people who run their business from home so like mynki said if there is no customers coming in and out and no disruption I can't see there being too much stopping them from getting a license. If it's all done properly and professional it could be good and so much different to a bedroom seller I think.


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## bigd_1

LFBP-NEIL said:


> Theres less than £15 profit on those products thats why they are never discounted... who was selling them for £100 at donny? (going to send the boys round lol... )


 pm you there had the prime 1 at £90 and prime 2 at £100


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## Chris Newman

YoshiHCG said:


> Obviously if someone wanted to sell dry goods as well as their own homebred stock they could work this into the same application for licensing to have everything covered I assume. I know of people who run their business from home so like mynki said if there is no customers coming in and out and no disruption I can't see there being too much stopping them from getting a license. If it's all done properly and professional it could be good and so much different to a bedroom seller I think.


No, the Pet Animals Act only applies to the sale of animals sold as “pets”, and then only applies to vertebrate animals traded as pets; animals that are bred by the keeper are exempted from the aforementioned Act. I did say it was complicated…...!!

I am not sure weather the fact customers call or not is relevant in terms of dry good, I suspect the bigger issue is “running a business” from a private dwelling and the issues are more likely to be access in terms of deliveries and collection, I suspect……!!


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## YoshiHCG

Chris Newman said:


> No, the Pet Animals Act only applies to the sale of animals sold as “pets”, and then only applies to vertebrate animals traded as pets; animals that are bred by the keeper are exempted from the aforementioned Act. I did say it was complicated…...!!
> 
> I am not sure weather the fact customers call or not is relevant in terms of dry good, I suspect the bigger issue is “running a business” from a private dwelling and the issues are more likely to be access in terms of deliveries and collection, I suspect……!!


Ah lots to take in then and very complicated but not impossible!


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## _simon_

I buy virtually everything online because it's easier and I can shop around BUT for anything of real value I won't buy from any tom, dick or harry. I want to be sure the sale is from an established shop or online retailer for my own peace of mind. If it's cheap stuff like glue, washers or a digital thermometer then I'll eBay it from the cheapest seller with good feedback.

I find local reptile shops near me to be very disappointing in regards to dry stock range. I can't remember the last time they had what I wanted and one in particular seems to have a deal with hagen as that's all they stock. I have to go online if I want something else e.g. Arcadia lighting products. Livestock wise no issues except if I want to actually buy something in which case I have to wait in line whilst half the county treats the shop like a day out at the zoo.


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## LFBP-NEIL

_simon_ said:


> I have to wait in line whilst half the county treats the shop like a day out at the zoo.


Take a fiver out of your pocket and wave it above your head... works at bars? it would work in my shop.. get out the way kids this man has money lol


----------



## Team Reptiles

If we did a poll I would bet good money that many peoples first introduction to reptiles was via a reptile shop and a good number of those peoples first purchase of a reptile was from a reptile shop. Far fewer people will have thought 'oohhh I fancy owning a reptile', then searched for forums, private sellers and ordered all the equipment on line. 

Shops are the start of the hobby for many people. People sitting at home doing nothing while reptile products are drop shipped from certain suppliers for prices sometimes only pennies more than the shops can buy them for will kill the hobby. 

A good percentage of my customers are parents buying a first reptile for their child. They want somewhere they can come and and see the reptiles, be shown how the equipment works and have it all set up for them so they can take it home and plug it in. Without the shops these children would not get the joy of owning a reptile and future generations of reptile keepers are lost.


----------



## iPHAILZ

Team Reptiles said:


> If we did a poll I would bet good money that many peoples first introduction to reptiles was via a reptile shop and a good number of those peoples first purchase of a reptile was from a reptile shop. Far fewer people will have thought 'oohhh I fancy owning a reptile', then searched for forums, private sellers and ordered all the equipment on line.
> 
> Shops are the start of the hobby for many people. People sitting at home doing nothing while reptile products are drop shipped from certain suppliers for prices sometimes only pennies more than the shops can buy them for will kill the hobby.
> 
> A good percentage of my customers are parents buying a first reptile for their child. They want somewhere they can come and and see the reptiles, be shown how the equipment works and have it all set up for them so they can take it home and plug it in. Without the shops these children would not get the joy of owning a reptile and future generations of reptile keepers are lost.


This is true, i paid 70 quid for a normal male royal when i could have got one for 20 here, along with selling a starter kit with no stat not even been giving the option to buy one. Kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth that one...


----------



## Mynki

YoshiHCG said:


> Obviously if someone wanted to sell dry goods as well as their own homebred stock they could work this into the same application for licensing to have everything covered I assume. I know of people who run their business from home so like mynki said if there is no customers coming in and out and no disruption I can't see there being too much stopping them from getting a license. If it's all done properly and professional it could be good and so much different to a bedroom seller I think.


You may be able to have visitors at your home based business. It all depends on the individual property and the local authority. It is the responsibility of the individual to check if he or she can run a business from home, to register with HMRC, if you don't then technically you could go to prison and to ensure you meet all the health and safety requirements and have public liability insurance etc. 

Think about it logically though, would you want your tiny, narrow street blocked with an artic lorry delivering goods to someones home, or be unable to find anywhere to park outside YOUR house because the bloke next door has a bunch of customers visiting who are taking up all the parking space? Some homes are restricted on these grounds and rightly so in my humble opinion. On the flip side if you live in a detached property and can accomodate visitors and deliveries without disruption to the general public, then who has the moral right to try and restrict you from earning a living? 

If you're thinking of setting up I'd suggest you contact your local council and a good accountant (Their first meeting is usually free) to get some decent authoratative advice. Just be aware that even a 'bedroom seller' can lose money, you are not forced to be successful just because you may have lower overheads compared to a bricks and mortar shop.


----------



## Scales and Fangs

iPHAILZ said:


> This is true, i paid 70 quid for a normal male royal when i could have got one for 20 here, along with selling a starter kit with no stat not even been giving the option to buy one. Kind of leaves a sour taste in the mouth that one...


Thats about right, i've heard some horror stories. I know of a shop that will sell you a set up with no stat and suggests that a stat is only a vet recommendation :bash: The same shop will sell you a tortoise set up that is a 2ft viv with a compact and a 40watt bulb.

You get the good and bad in every area of this industry, people on here bang on about only buying animals from breeders cos they have the personal touch etc, again, I have heard some of the advice thats dished out by them too, it's enough to make me cringe.

Again, this thread is going way off topic.

I know that some people don't give a toss who they give their money too as long as they get what they want, plenty of people have made that clear on this thread. It might be harsh but the people that run these sites are no better than a common thief, at the end of the day, they are robbing us of our hobby. I would ask these people if they would buy a TV from a local skank just because you can save £30. I just wanted to open peoples eyes to the fact that there are online shops out there that are being run outside of the law and if even one person is decent enough not to support this act which is having a devastating affect on the hobby then I have achieved something. Knowing of at least 2 people that are now armed with this information and won't be using them in the future, I am more than happy.


----------



## Scales and Fangs

Mynki said:


> You may be able to have visitors at your home based business. It all depends on the individual property and the local authority. It is the responsibility of the individual to check if he or she can run a business from home, to register with HMRC, if you don't then technically you could go to prison and to ensure you meet all the health and safety requirements and have public liability insurance etc.
> 
> Think about it logically though, would you want your tiny, narrow street blocked with an artic lorry delivering goods to someones home, or be unable to find anywhere to park outside YOUR house because the bloke next door has a bunch of customers visiting who are taking up all the parking space? Some homes are restricted on these grounds and rightly so in my humble opinion. On the flip side if you live in a detached property and can accomodate visitors and deliveries without disruption to the general public, then who has the moral right to try and restrict you from earning a living?
> 
> If you're thinking of setting up I'd suggest you contact your local council and a good accountant (Their first meeting is usually free) to get some decent authoratative advice. Just be aware that even a 'bedroom seller' can lose money, you are not forced to be successful just because you may have lower overheads compared to a bricks and mortar shop.


Ok i'm not sure of the relevance of this reply as we are not talking about people having an open shop at their home. But what I am interested to know is that other than pricing in the minus, how can a bedroom seller lose money?


----------



## Mynki

Scales and Fangs said:


> Ok i'm not sure of the relevance of this reply as we are not talking about people having an open shop at their home. But what I am interested to know is that other than pricing in the minus, how can a bedroom seller lose money?


Seriously? 

Errrr, by investing time and money setting up and buying stock and then not making any sales. Just because you advertise a product for sale does not guarantee a sale as tens of thousands of listings on ebay will testify right now.


----------



## Mynki

Chris Newman said:


> No, the Pet Animals Act only applies to the sale of animals sold as “pets”, and then only applies to vertebrate animals traded as pets; animals that are bred by the keeper are exempted from the aforementioned Act. I did say it was complicated…...!!
> 
> I am not sure weather the fact customers call or not is relevant in terms of dry good, I suspect the bigger issue is “running a business” from a private dwelling and the issues are more likely to be access in terms of deliveries and collection, I suspect……!!


And to add further complication, one particular aquatic wholesaler I use which does also sell a few herps insists on customers having a PSL if they wish to purchase the invertebrates (Aquarium shrimp and snails) they offer for sale.

This has no basis in law, but is a company policy. They'll also sell to a 'bedroom seller' if they register an account for them and are accepted after a credit check and offer a drop ship service for dry goods too.


----------



## EssexReptile Ross

Mynki said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Errrr, by investing time and money setting up and buying stock and then not making any sales. Just because you advertise a product for sale does not guarantee a sale as tens of thousands of listings on ebay will testify right now.


Bedroom sellers don't hold stock, they don't invest a penny.


----------



## YoshiHCG

Mynki said:


> You may be able to have visitors at your home based business. It all depends on the individual property and the local authority. It is the responsibility of the individual to check if he or she can run a business from home, to register with HMRC, if you don't then technically you could go to prison and to ensure you meet all the health and safety requirements and have public liability insurance etc.
> 
> Think about it logically though, would you want your tiny, narrow street blocked with an artic lorry delivering goods to someones home, or be unable to find anywhere to park outside YOUR house because the bloke next door has a bunch of customers visiting who are taking up all the parking space? Some homes are restricted on these grounds and rightly so in my humble opinion. On the flip side if you live in a detached property and can accomodate visitors and deliveries without disruption to the general public, then who has the moral right to try and restrict you from earning a living?
> 
> If you're thinking of setting up I'd suggest you contact your local council and a good accountant (Their first meeting is usually free) to get some decent authoratative advice. Just be aware that even a 'bedroom seller' can lose money, you are not forced to be successful just because you may have lower overheads compared to a bricks and mortar shop.


Okay thanks, Yeah I totally understand where your coming from with the whole placement of a home business. Sorry I'm not trying to pull this topic off thread I was just wondering if there is a difference in the eyes of the people who dont like 'Bedroom sellers' of a bedroom seller to a person running a home business online. 

I think the people who run a business doing drop shipping with no proper website/details and who are ruining the hobby by just trying to make an extra buck without putting the proper time and dedication into the business and actually trying to help the hobby are bad and I definitely will make sure to be more careful on websites to make sure the website is a legit business and actually cares about the hobby, should be clear to see I hope.


----------



## Mynki

EssexReptile Ross said:


> Bedroom sellers don't hold stock, they don't invest a penny.


When I started out I sold from my home. We did indeed invest a lot of time and effort in planning our business model and stock was kept in three bedrooms, the garage, the hallway and the conservatory before we became a fully fledged legit concern.

So I think your definition of the term 'bedroom sller' is limited, because plenty of other people in the pet industry use that term for those who sell from home without a customer friendly shop. 

You're deluded if you think it doesn't cost a penny to set up. That said after some of the drivel I read in post 67 I'm not too surprised! :lol2:

Do you think the phone calls to suppliers offering drop ship accounts are free? Do you think website hosting and creation or even fleabay fees are free? 

I'd suggest all the whiney shop owners who are struggling to compete spend their time looking at how they can improve their bottom line rather than wating their potentially valuable time moaning about the opposition. Joe Public doesn't care about any business, they just want what's right for them at the time, that might be by using a shop it might be using a bedroom seller, deal with it or go under, the choice is very much down to the business owner. 

One point I do have to add is that it's quite laughable to read the word 'greed' on this thread. Those trying to portray others as greedy, have you ever stopped and thought that those setting up might be aspirational, that they may wish to improve the quality of life for themselves and their families? Who are you to judge them? 

The hobby needs shops, and there always will be successful ones out there. Those that fail, failed because they were unable to deal with market forces and competition, it's just survival of the fittest and evolution of the industry, some deserve to become extinct!


----------



## Scales and Fangs

Mynki said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Errrr, by investing time and money setting up and buying stock and then not making any sales. Just because you advertise a product for sale does not guarantee a sale as tens of thousands of listings on ebay will testify right now.


If someone invests time and money buying stock and is prepared to do some graft for their earnings and declaire it like us genuine businesses to HMRC then I have no issue with them.

It's the people that set up a website and rely on a wholesaler to do the donkey work, they then sit back and wait for the orders to come in, if they earn 50p on a stat then it's 50p more than they had before. 

So yes seriously! the only way a bedroom seller that has the stock drop shipped can lose money is to price into the minus.


----------



## Mynki

AilsaM said:


> Well said Erac, all of the *independent reptile shops* play a huge part in the hobby and I for one would rather give my money to them to support their business whether it be buying reptiles, equipment, decor, food etc etc.


From an individual who has stated on this very forum that she enjoys 3 for 2 offers from Pets @ Home! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:


Just posted as evidence to show how mercenary punters are in the real world when it comes to money, despite what some may say in public, the harsh realities are, people like cheaper prices and don't always care about "independent reptile shops". The same applies to all industries, obviously!


----------



## Mynki

Scales and Fangs said:


> So yes seriously! the only way a bedroom seller that has the stock drop shipped can lose money is to price into the minus.


In your opening post you discuss websites. These are not free to set up or host, there are very real costs involved. What about the marketing costs of getting these sites noticed by reptile keepers? Are you going to suggest that these are all free?

And again, there is no guarantee that a product will sell. 

How do you know that people only use a drop ship service and do not hold some stock? Go and read the opening post again and try and be unbiased. It looks a little disingenuous and even envious to me. Thats not be trying to be funny with you, that's just the impression I get.


----------



## Scales and Fangs

YoshiHCG said:


> Okay thanks, Yeah I totally understand where your coming from with the whole placement of a home business. Sorry I'm not trying to pull this topic off thread I was just wondering if there is a difference in the eyes of the people who dont like 'Bedroom sellers' of a bedroom seller to a person running a home business online.
> 
> I think the people who run a business doing drop shipping with no proper website/details and who are ruining the hobby by just trying to make an extra buck without putting the proper time and dedication into the business and actually trying to help the hobby are bad and I definitely will make sure to be more careful on websites to make sure the website is a legit business and actually cares about the hobby, should be clear to see I hope.


To answer your question, yes there is a massive difference between bedroom sellers and home run businesses. Mainly that a home run business is quite legit by declaring what they do and put in the hard work.



Mynki said:


> In your opening post you discuss websites. These are not free to set up or host, there are very real costs involved. What about the marketing costs of getting these sites noticed by reptile keepers? Are you going to suggest that these are all free?


Then you are clearly not looking in the right places. To run an eCommerce site you have to be somewhat computer/IT literate, I'm not saying any tom dick or harry could do it. My 14 year old son built one in less than an hour and within 15 munites of that had over 2000 products listed. I ensured that this remained on a local server cos he was more than happy to put it on the host server at his school. So my point is, when it comes to IT, if you know where to look, you can get anything for FREE


----------



## Mynki

Scales and Fangs said:


> Then you are clearly not looking in the right places. To run an eCommerce site you have to be somewhat computer/IT literate, I'm not saying any tom dick or harry could do it. My 14 year old son built one in less than an hour and within 15 munites of that had over 2000 products listed. I ensured that this remained on a local server cos he was more than happy to put it on the host server at his school. So my point is, when it comes to IT, if you know where to look, you can get anything for FREE


Cool, point me in the direction of the free ISP and the energy company who will give me free leccy to power my IT hardware needed to run my business then please.

And thanks in advance, that's much appreciated! Annoyingly I've had to pay for broadband and electricity for years, I must be stupid if I haven't figured out where to get it for free all this time! But now you can remedy all that for me.


----------



## YoshiHCG

Scales and Fangs said:


> To answer your question, yes there is a massive difference between bedroom sellers and home run businesses. Mainly that a home run business is quite legit by declaring what they do and put in the hard work.


Thanks, it would be a shame for home run businesses to be tarred with the same brush after putting long hours of dedication in to their work.

However everyone does start some where I must agree. I think the reptile shops I have seen have a few things that make me go back: friendly staff who are not unhappy at having a good natter about the hobby, clean tanks with thought put into the animals habitat, offers are always great if they can do that, live food i always buy from reptile shops and a good range of stock to look at. I find a website is useful I must admit as I do enjoy browsing online and will often look at their website before going to the shop to make sure of opening hours and if they have what I need in if its a special item.


----------



## AilsaM

Mynki said:


> From an individual who has stated on this very forum that she enjoys 3 for 2 offers from Pets @ Home! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:


So what, it is decor for enclosures mainly I buy there and frozen rodents if I have run out which does me until I make another bulk order!!!

My snakes have been bought from good reptile shops and a breeder on here, when I need heat mats or stats I will buy online, usually from Blue Lizard Reptiles or Swell Reptiles.


----------



## Mynki

AilsaM said:


> So what, it is decor for enclosures mainly I buy there and frozen rodents if I have run out which does me until I make another bulk order!!!
> 
> My snakes have been bought from good reptile shops and a breeder on here, when I need heat mats or stats I will buy online, usually from Blue Lizard Reptiles or Swell Reptiles.


No one cares.

Pay attention to the rest of my post and you'll see I was using you as an example of the honesty, integrity and loyalty of your 'Average Joe'! :lol2:


----------



## plasma234

i don't think pet stores selling reptiles will ever disappear. your right, a lot of peoples first experience of a reptile are at pet stores. just that happens to be at a pets at home when there mum or dad are shopping for a dog collar, cat flap or a hamster. 
the kid then see's a cresty, beardy, corn, leo etc and wants one, the parents say "do your research and you can have one." is that kid going to stroll up to a library to read a book? no, he will google search "leopard gecko care" result number 5 on google is this very forum, with further reading he finds the equipment he needs, but because he is at his computer he will find it all online, and that's when the price over rules. 

like almost everything in this world at the moment, its the massive companies or the internet that will win, even then, the large companies can lose out. i don't miss Comet, i bought the same tv they were selling for £200 less from an internet company.


----------



## Horny Toad

This topic is the hot potato in the trade at the moment, every shop owner I speak to wants to talk about it. On the whole I agree whole heartedly, but then I'm one of those "greedy" shop owners, so I guess I would! 

All of the major wholesalers that provide some kind of drop shipping service are talking about tackling this problem - and yes I have to agree that with some it seems to be just lip service whereas others seem to be more active in tackling the issue.

I have, for the last few months moved into eCommerce and re-designed my website with an on-line store as well as my bricks and mortar store in Darlington. I can say, although its hard to break into, there is a market there worth breaking in to. With a lot of hard work at the breeders meetings in the UK, sponsoring programmes for the meetings, sponsoring competitions on the forums and lots more we have now managed to create the foundations of a good little business to run alongside Coast to Coast Exotics bricks and mortar. On the whole we are not using drop shipping, with around 85% of our despatches leaving our own premises in Darlington - perhaps I am fortunate that we are a busy company with large levels of stock from most of the major manufacturers. However, I have approached two other wholesalers and asked about the possibilities of drop shipping to be told that at the moment they are not taking any more new drop ship business for the time being - whether they be "bedroom sellers" or bricks and mortar. One of those is the wholesaler that is probably having most of the adverse criticism aimed at them, the other being the one that is publically taking a stance against the "bedroom sellers". So, I think as an industry it appears that this problem could now starting to be taken in hand - it will be interesting, once the two wholesalers mentioned start to take on new drop ship business how this will be done. The wholesaler I use for (the small amount) drop shipping is certainly cautious and I dont think has ever had the finger pointed at them for providing drop shipping to bed room sellers.


Its a massively complicated topic, for example; a typical bedroom seller has whatever cost to pay for his home and is making money from that home at the same time. I have a cost for my business premises, I have some spare room in that premises that was not earning me any money so I became an internet seller (that hasnt ruled out using drop shipping services) - does that make me as bad as the bedroom seller? Obviously I make that example without taking into regard the possible lack of HMRC involvement that some are pointing the finger at with bedroom sellers etc etc but its a valid point.

Speaking from experience of starting out 20 years ago as working from home (and with supplies from both of the wholesalers "mentioned" in this thread) and then moving into a shop I remember the controversy my breeding from home caused with the shops at the time. Much the same as is happening now with drop shipping.

I must make things clear, I am not sticking up for the bedroom sellers in any shape or form. Its just that during my business career (I run several businesses) I have had many challenges - many, many challenges! I view this just as another challenge to come along. I have firstly identified that I need to make more money from my reptile premises in Darlington and secondly that the internet is here to stay and I need to be involved. I have a plan to ensure that both business will run alongside each other complimenting each other well. There are "Marks and Spencers" people and there are "Aldi" people with room for both in the market place - I view it the same in our industry, some want cheap others want service. I think as a reptile shop I am lucky that I can cater for both, and if the larger wholesalers want to look after my interests as well - then indeed I'm even luckier.


----------



## Mynki

One thing I'd add is that there is a lot of money to be made in the pet industry for those who want to go and fight for it. 

See the competition as the enemy, if you suspect that they are not registered with HMRC, report them. If they are, then so be it. If they are not, then you've done us all a favour. 

In recent times HMRC have become very efficient at catching tax dodgers out who trade online, but giving them a little help isn't a bad thing. The sellers will either give up or be forced to raise their prices.


----------



## mstypical

I agree with everything Mynki said! 

It does come across as though you're a little envious of bedroom sellers OP, to the point that you are now sounding slightly childish. 

If you are competitively priced with good customer service and knowledgeable staff, your business will survive.


----------



## penfold

mstypical said:


> I agree with everything Mynki said!
> 
> It does come across as though you're a little envious of bedroom sellers OP, to the point that you are now sounding slightly childish.
> 
> If you are competitively priced with good customer service and knowledgeable staff, your business will survive.


There's competitively priced and then giving stuff away at a stupid price will people not learn from the stupid price mistakes by surrey pets , oh where are they now ,I forgot they ran of with people's money


----------



## Mynki

penfold said:


> There's competitively priced and then giving stuff away at a stupid price will people not learn from the stupid price mistakes by surrey pets , oh where are they now ,I forgot they ran of with people's money


Then use stupidly cheap suppliers on ebay and pay by Paypal. The buyer is then covered by both eBay's and paypals buyer protection policy. If you don't get your goods, you get your money back.

This is much better than ordering goods over the phone and paying by debit card in my opinion.


----------



## mstypical

penfold said:


> There's competitively priced and then giving stuff away at a stupid price will people not learn from the stupid price mistakes by surrey pets , oh where are they now ,I forgot they ran of with people's money


Posts like this, and you're a shop?! I've had better people skills from a bedroom seller!


----------



## penfold

mstypical said:


> Posts like this, and you're a shop?! I've had better people skills from a bedroom seller!


Glad for you:bash:


----------



## Scales and Fangs

mstypical said:


> I agree with everything Mynki said!
> 
> It does come across as though you're a little envious of bedroom sellers OP, to the point that you are now sounding slightly childish.
> 
> If you are competitively priced with good customer service and knowledgeable staff, your business will survive.


The only thing I am envious about is the fact that I have to pay corporation tax and vat and business rates etc and the un registered bedroom seller don't.


----------



## mstypical

Scales and Fangs said:


> The only thing I am envious about is the fact that I have to pay corporation tax and vat and business rates etc and the un registered bedroom seller don't.


So? Really what's the point of this topic other than making the reptile shops with accounts on here look like jealous jocks who've had their girlfriends stolen by the school geek?


----------



## Mynki

Scales and Fangs said:


> The only thing I am envious about is the fact that I have to pay corporation tax and vat and business rates etc and the un registered bedroom seller don't.


 
Yet you freely admit to checking up on their homes and state that some live in "nice houses". Why would you feel the need to comment on their home then? 

You're in position to make such claims in your previous post though. How do you know the bedroom seller is not registered for VAT, paying business rates (See my previous link to the government link on running a business from home) and also liable for corporation tax?

Or to put it another way, how do we know shop owners are behaving as they should? Are they declaring all of their takings? Or should others cast random, unfounded aspersions about them doing undeclared cash in hand deals etc?


----------



## Scales and Fangs

mstypical said:


> So? Really what's the point of this topic other than making the reptile shops with accounts on here look like jealous jocks who've had their girlfriends stolen by the school geek?


The point, as ive already mentioned a few times now is to educate people about how to spot a rogue trader.

If people chose to act on it is down to them. Some mixed reviews, some have chose to check out where they buy and ensure they are legit, some chose not to give a toss who they give their money too and others have acted in true RFUK style and just used it as a platform to be insultive and just plain arrogant.


----------



## mstypical

Scales and Fangs said:


> The point, as ive already mentioned a few times now is to educate people about how to spot a rogue trader.
> 
> If people chose to act on it is down to them. Some mixed reviews, some have chose to check out where they buy and ensure they are legit, some chose not to give a toss who they give their money too and others have acted in true RFUK style and just used it as a platform to be insultive and just plain arrogant.


Ok, if you're so much more worthy of custom...

Snake Starter Kit Medium Flat

*Where* is the thermostat and digital thermometer?

You don't have it in there because you don't want to put prospective buyers off with the relatively expensive true start up costs of keeping a snake.

This is why I do not use shops. Profit before anything else, including animal welfare. At least the 'bedroom seller' does not pretend to be something he is not.


----------



## Mynki

Scales and Fangs said:


> The point, as ive already mentioned a few times now is to educate people about how to spot a rogue trader.
> 
> If people chose to act on it is down to them. Some mixed reviews, *some have chose to check out where they buy and ensure they are legit*, some chose not to give a toss who they give their money too and others have acted in true RFUK style and just used it as a platform to be insultive and just plain arrogant.


Another reason to buy from ebay sellers. The feedback system gives an unparalleled insight into how good the seller is.  

I do concur though, you have been quite arrogant in implying that your competition may be acting in an unlawful manner without any shred of proof. That's a little bit off really.


----------



## Scales and Fangs

mstypical said:


> Ok, if you're so much more worthy of custom...
> 
> Snake Starter Kit Medium Flat
> 
> *Where* is the thermostat and digital thermometer?
> 
> You don't have it in there because you don't want to put prospective buyers off with the relatively expensive true start up costs of keeping a snake.
> 
> This is why I do not use shops. Profit before anything else, including animal welfare. At least the 'bedroom seller' does not pretend to be something he is not.


Oh crap... ok you can have that one as that section should have been removed ages ago as we are currently working on the build a viv section which I invite you to look at.

Thankfully we have never sold one of those products and will ensure we never do. 

Feel free to point out anything else that may be un acceptable.


----------



## bigd_1

Scales and Fangs said:


> Oh crap... ok you can have that one as that section should have been removed ages ago as we are currently working on the build a viv section which I invite you to look at.
> 
> Thankfully we have never sold one of those products and will ensure we never do.
> 
> Feel free to point out anything else that may be un acceptable.


Exo Terra Thermometer Dial
this cant see y shop sell them there crap :whistling2:


----------



## Horny Toad

I think it was brave for the OP to post about this topic, and believe his / hers motives were well intended - I believe its true that if the shops are put under any more pressure during these dark economic times by any underhand (i.e tax dodging) on-line retailers that we may start losing the shops. If this happens the backbone of the industry would be all but lost - and with the tactics of the likes of the APA applying yet more pressure the days of our hobby might well be over. However, it has to be said that its probably only going to receive a majority sympathy level within the trade, ie shops and the wholesalers. The majority of people on RFUK are "punters" (who probably mainly appreciate saving the odd bob or two) and of course the "bedroom sellers" themselves!

I think, what we (by that I mean the shops) need to do is to rise to the challenge - there are various options for this, many I am implementing myself so wont be discussing here for all my competitors to copy! What we can all do as well is work with the wholesalers in what ever way we see correct - whether that be with one of the general wholesalers or direct with the manufacturers (who I have not seen any evidence of drop shipping in any shape or form - but Im happy to stand corrected if there is evidence). I do believe that as an industry we are starting to tackle this issue, and on the face of it the general wholesalers seem to be getting more control on it - including the one that has likely caused the problem in the first place. I'm guessing we need to take the stance that we can all make mistakes! Hopefully this issue will be a thing of the past. It goes without saying that we (shops) should report any suspiscious activity to our wholesalers and also HMRC.

The wholesalers also have a huge part to play, they cannot keep passing the buck of blame around. Its time to look to the future and build a better industry with those that are willing to do things correctly and "tow the line". Some of the past "bedroom sellers" are now legitimate and are quite succesful - I dont hold that against them and just see them as players in the market place. So with this in mind, they are established, along with half a dozen "big" players that wholesalers do support, its time to open up to those that are fully legit and working to work hard to sell their products. This way we can build a better industry, with established bricks and mortar shops like my own surviving with the extra pressure from the on-line operators. If they dont start supporting the bricks and mortar stores that are wanting to go on-line the bricks and mortar shops will likely die - with the same end result that the OP mentioned - disasterous results for the industry on the whole. I can just see it now - the comment "do you remember those great little reptile shops we used to have around every corner - they were great for help and advice". The internet is here to stay, its still in its infancy and the existing retailers need the support of the wholesalers. So, wholesalers, when an established bricks and mortar store approaches you, its now time to give them some support, rather than bleating on about the past and whatever the competitor wholesaler is doing etc etc.

Again, brave move from the OP to place this topic in the lions lair (so to speak) but I would leave this topic here, to be honest. The average punter wont help, on the whole, but we as legitimate retailers and those that are wholesalers can make a difference. Its time to make a solid foundation for the future of our industry.

Kevin Stevens


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## miss_ferret

i completely (well, mostly, i personally doubt that since Pets at Home et al decided to stock reptiles that the hobby will collapse with the decline of the independant rep shop) get the point the OP is trying to get across. however...

in theory, these should be your benefits from buying from a rep shop:

- knowledgeable, experienced staff
- products available to buy and take away on the day
- reasonable prices

my personal experiences have shown it unfortunately tends to be more this:

- staffed by enthusiastic but young (aka cheap) people who have managed not to kill their corn snake in the 6 months they've owned it and as such are totally qualified to advise you on everything from rhino rats to anacondas

or, even worse

- staffed by people who've learnt everything they need to know from a 'quick guide to bearded dragons' and will tell you whatever you want to hear in order to make a sale, because hey, if it dies you'll want to buy another pet. the 'i've been keeping them for 10 years!' (yes, and you have a survival rate second only to an abattoir) brigade. 

- very little stock on site, but 'we can order it in for you'. no thanks, i'll order it myself, probably get it quicker and pay less than what you'll charge me.

- the prices are rarely reasonable. i get that they're overheads and staff to pay, but some of the mark ups are taking the :censor:



my personal view is that the above puts people off shops in general, and as i do feel they're the majority of shops, it blackens people's perception of the good ones. to make it a bit clearer, i have 3 shops selling reptiles near me, two are specialist rep shops, one is an aquatics shop that's diversified.

shop number one: good variety of animals, good variety of dry goods. but prices can be rediculous and quality of advice is very much dependant on who's in the shop at the time.

shop number two: stocks beardies, thats about it. almost nothing in the way of dry stock, very little variety of livefood. hardly ever open. not keen on how animals are kept. will usually try to get you to buy the most expansive equipment in the shop.

aquatics shop: huge variety of livefood, wont sell a reptile unless 'reptile man' is in (which i approve of). good prices for livefood, scary prices for everything else.


their is another shop that i like, but its way to far for me to travel to on a regular basis.


to summarize: while i know that price and ease of online sellers is the main attraction for keepers, i dont think the general lack of trust in shops helps matters. as people have said, most of us do get our first reptile from a shop, i know i did, but how many of us go back to any shop after potentially being charged over the odds and given bad advice the first time around?


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## BenjiBrutal

sorry tobe the Noob to the post but is this not the same as calling private breeders bedroom sellers? they are not paying any tax on earnings and the likes but there was a post on the snake page about people generally prefer to buy reps from a private breeder, or is this post just for equipment and the likes?


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## Guest

BenjiBrutal said:


> sorry tobe the Noob to the post but is this not the same as calling private breeders bedroom sellers? they are not paying any tax on earnings and the likes but there was a post on the snake page about people generally prefer to buy reps from a private breeder, or is this post just for equipment and the likes?


TBF I really doubt there are many "bedroom sellers" that don't pay tax, or atleast those who stick around for more than a year (the recognizable names in the hobby for instance). I'm sure there are a few exceptions but on the whole if you have an online shopfront you're going to end up paying your taxes.


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## Spaceisdeep

Scales and Fangs said:


> Feel free to point out anything else that may be un acceptable.


£151.73 for a VivExotic Viva Terrestrial Vivarium Extra Large which is almost 50 quid cheaper elsewhere online, and not from a "bedroom seller" either :whistling2:

and no ssl security on your shopping cart so customers details are not secured during transmission, even a self signed certificate would be better than no certificate at all and as SSL certs are only about 10 quid a year from the likes of https://www.123-reg.co.uk/ssl-certificates/ there really is no legit excuse for a professional online retailer not to have one :whistling2:


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## Mynki

v-max said:


> I think it was brave for the OP to post about this topic, and believe his / hers motives were well intended - I believe its true that if the shops are put under any more pressure during these dark economic times by any underhand (i.e tax dodging) on-line retailers that we may start losing the shops. If this happens the backbone of the industry would be all but lost - and with the tactics of the likes of the APA applying yet more pressure the days of our hobby might well be over. However, it has to be said that its probably only going to receive a majority sympathy level within the trade, ie shops and the wholesalers. The majority of people on RFUK are "punters" (who probably mainly appreciate saving the odd bob or two) and of course the "bedroom sellers" themselves!
> 
> I think, what we (by that I mean the shops) need to do is to rise to the challenge - there are various options for this, many I am implementing myself so wont be discussing here for all my competitors to copy! What we can all do as well is work with the wholesalers in what ever way we see correct - whether that be with one of the general wholesalers or direct with the manufacturers (who I have not seen any evidence of drop shipping in any shape or form - but Im happy to stand corrected if there is evidence). I do believe that as an industry we are starting to tackle this issue, and on the face of it the general wholesalers seem to be getting more control on it - including the one that has likely caused the problem in the first place. I'm guessing we need to take the stance that we can all make mistakes! Hopefully this issue will be a thing of the past. It goes without saying that we (shops) should report any suspiscious activity to our wholesalers and also HMRC.
> 
> The wholesalers also have a huge part to play, they cannot keep passing the buck of blame around. Its time to look to the future and build a better industry with those that are willing to do things correctly and "tow the line". Some of the past "bedroom sellers" are now legitimate and are quite succesful - I dont hold that against them and just see them as players in the market place. So with this in mind, they are established, along with half a dozen "big" players that wholesalers do support, its time to open up to those that are fully legit and working to work hard to sell their products. This way we can build a better industry, with established bricks and mortar shops like my own surviving with the extra pressure from the on-line operators. If they dont start supporting the bricks and mortar stores that are wanting to go on-line the bricks and mortar shops will likely die - with the same end result that the OP mentioned - disasterous results for the industry on the whole. I can just see it now - the comment "do you remember those great little reptile shops we used to have around every corner - they were great for help and advice". The internet is here to stay, its still in its infancy and the existing retailers need the support of the wholesalers. So, wholesalers, when an established bricks and mortar store approaches you, its now time to give them some support, rather than bleating on about the past and whatever the competitor wholesaler is doing etc etc.
> 
> Again, brave move from the OP to place this topic in the lions lair (so to speak) but I would leave this topic here, to be honest. The average punter wont help, on the whole, but we as legitimate retailers and those that are wholesalers can make a difference. Its time to make a solid foundation for the future of our industry.
> 
> Kevin Stevens


A few questions for you Kevin. These are sincere, though may come across in a negative and slightly disingenuous light, but treat them in the spirit they are intended. I own an aquatics related business. You'll know yourself that the reptile and fishkeeping hobby are very closely related in many ways. However there is a much larger range of products in the fish keeping industry than in the reptile industry. We've had all kinds of challenges and issues over the years including one supplier trying to ban us from selling products on third party websites that they currently have exclusive UK distribution rights to, this is becoming more of a hot potato to use one of your phrases in several industries with an incentive from ebay challenging the European union in order to try and make this unlawful. 

However, I just replaced those products with someone else's and due to decent marketing on our part have not lost any sales, ironically the margins even increased very slightly! But, when I visit reptile shops, and I live in an area where I can visit seven within a thirty minute drive, I always wonder why they all sell the same product lines? In short, the ranges look dull. In a tropical fish shop you can be assured of seeing different ranges and some unique products. So I have to ask, and again I'm playing devils advocate but asking sincerely, are some reptile shop owners just too damn lazy to survive? 

Why do they not invest more time in sourcing new innovative products and marketting them so that they sell and are not so tied to the usual Exo Terra stuff etc?

Now, before some smart arse tells me that's all there is, I spend quite a bit of time in the US every year and do take time to visit pet shops there, just out of curiosity and from a global perspective, there really is more that can be stocked, and before people bleat on about import costs etc, there is no reason why a number of shops could not consolidate their orders, this has been commonplace in the aquatics industry for livestock for decades. 

I also know damn well that I could cross sell some of our aquatic products to herp keepers if I marketed them properly because no one else seems to be doing so right now, in particular habitat items with high margin too. In fact maybe I should do this online now? 

Hopefully you'll understand why I struggle to find sympathy when people complain about a multi million dollar global industry not making them enough money. You've stated that you're successful and are moving with the times, so why oh why should cash concious punters worry about those who under perform? 

Ultimately if the shops banded together to try and form some kind of illegal cartel by forcing wholesalers to only supply bricks and mortar shops and fix prices, then prices for those products will only increase and Joe Public will only find their hobby more expensive to pursue. The harsh reality is that there are entrepreneurial individuals out there who are motivated and driven who will still continue to sell reptile keeping products online from back bedrooms and their garages who will provide better value and perhaps even service than some shops, maybe they'll just source new products that the shops don't or rarely stock, but you'll never stop this from happening.

P.S I agree the OP was brave to start the debate, I'm sure it's been an interesting and hopefully positive experience for him.


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## sharpstrain

have to say I agree - I am absolutely bored to death with the range of dry goods available from rep shops - there is little to draw me in and get me to spend, some times i have gone out with cash looking for inspiration - I rarely end up spending all of it and more often than not, none at all.

most recent was a visit to poole on thursday !


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## Khonsu

Have to say this is an interseting thread, some good, & not so good, points.

As a punter I will always look for value for money. 

I do think that many of the goods offered in reptile shops are exorbitantly priced & not good value for money. It feels like the trade who "value us punters" so much are cashing in on the limited market avaialble to us (not saying this is the shop as an individual but the trade as a whole) As a consequence I will always endeavour to find an alternative to the magnificently overpackaged goods on the shelf. Never mind using bedroom sellers after a "quick buck" why would I buy a resin hide for say £6 from anywhere when half a coconut shell for 50p will do the job & look even better, or expensive plastic plants at stupid prices when the likes of Dunhelm Mill sell them at half the price or less, there's lots of examples of this. 

Peoples wages have to spread ever thinner & if there's a bargain to be had loyaly doesn't count for much I'm afraid, it's a sad but realistic truth.

Maybe rather than crying wolf the reptile shop should do something about it, maybe they should look for alternatives just like us punters. I buy ceramic dog & cat food bowls from my local £1 Kack Shack, hygenic, easy to clean, look OK, presumably they have just as many overheads but they can still make turnover/make a profit, why don't the reptile shops offer such as these instead off over priced/expensive resin bowls.

I didn't mean this response to be so negative about the trade but the more I think about it the less sympathy I have. In my own industry if the company I work for is undercut by a competator then it's up to us to do something about, it's no good us bleating about the loyalty of our clients as the response will be the same, cut costs/improve quality.

I'll get me coat.


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## mitsi

Must admit all of my heaters tube and ceramic ive bought from ebay, in fact everything I get for my reps except for the vivs as we build these ourselves, comes from ebay. I can get a ceramic bulb 150w off ebay for £7.00 posted, thats nearly £20 quid cheaper than my local rep shops, for the same item. And this is from longstanding pet shops to. The only thing I buy from my rep shop is bugs and the occassional rep. I dont use any other places to shop for equipment though, would love to buy it all from my local shops but just cant justify the extra cost of buying the same products from them.


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## Moshpitviper

So what will happen if this drop shipping lark continues?

Imagine a world where all shops are gone..... Imagine you are fairly new to the hobby......

I am totally sure the drop shippers will...

Sex your animals

Board your animals whilst you are sunning yourself in tenerife

Give you good advice on what best product to use, and not just the cheapest

Cut your iguana/beardies nails

Come out at 10pm with a heat mat for you, as the one in your incubator failed. And it's your first clutch of eggs. Eggs that you are really excited about, and would be heartbroken if you lost them

show you how to assist feed

Come round your house at all hours to teach you methods to find the snake that escaped

Drive across 5 countries to pick up that really rare Gecko you want

Drive back through 5 countries and deliver it straight to your door, exhausted, all because you were texting about how excited you were.

Would be a real shame to lose all those things for saving a couple of bob wouldn't it? Think more about what you will lose. and not what you will save.


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## mitsi

Understand what you are saying mosh but everything you list most people can and do get done through outside sources anyway, ie couriers and other rep owners, if online retailers not the dropshippers, can and do sell the same/similar products far cheaper, then the shops and their suppliers, need to think more about their pricing, its all apart of business and being competitive, its always been this way, they need to support the rep keeping community, and not try to fleecec us all the time, after all, if it wasnt for us they wouldnt be inbusiness in the first place.


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## Moshpitviper

mitsi said:


> Understand what you are saying mosh but everything you list most people can and do get done through outside sources anyway, ie couriers and other rep owners, if online retailers not the dropshippers, can and do sell the same/similar products far cheaper, then the shops and their suppliers, need to think more about their pricing, its all apart of business and being competitive, its always been this way, they need to support the rep keeping community, and not try to fleecec us all the time, after all, if it wasnt for us they wouldnt be inbusiness in the first place.


10 years ago i'd have agreed with you. This hobby is no longer what it was. The last 3 snakes i have purchased privately in the past few months, I was made to wait at the door whilst the seller went and fetched the animal. If people aren't willing to talk to other keepers in person, What chance have you got of any of the above happening?
And tbh, I understand why people are like that. You come on here for advice as a novice and get flamed by what can best be described as other novices who have likely googled their response or have heard it 5th hand from elsewhere. That person then goes away more confused than when they arrived. I will always favour the advice of a seasoned keeper over any pish i read on the internet. And in many instances, long term keepers decide to open shops. It is YOU as the customer who needs to decide WHO is a good shop to ask advice. And we all know there are plenty of good ones out there.

And as has been said a million times in this thread. Shops have bills to pay. Drop shippers do not. Hence the price difference. And most shops are working on the ssp/rrp from the wholesaler. *Old man rant alert*..... Personally, I used to like going to places like Zavvi and HMV to flick through CD's, Records and other things. I'd waste hours doing that. I enjoyed it, It got me out of the house for a bit. I can no longer really do that. Because everyone else decided it was better to order online and save a few quid. I've been denied my saturday afternoon vice. Also, many people lost their jobs.


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## Khonsu

Moshpitviper said:


> So what will happen if this drop shipping lark continues?
> 
> Imagine a world where all shops are gone..... Imagine you are fairly new to the hobby......
> 
> I am totally sure the drop shippers will...
> 
> Sex your animals
> 
> Board your animals whilst you are sunning yourself in tenerife
> 
> Give you good advice on what best product to use, and not just the cheapest
> 
> Cut your iguana/beardies nails
> 
> Come out at 10pm with a heat mat for you, as the one in your incubator failed. And it's your first clutch of eggs. Eggs that you are really excited about, and would be heartbroken if you lost them
> 
> show you how to assist feed
> 
> Come round your house at all hours to teach you methods to find the snake that escaped
> 
> Drive across 5 countries to pick up that really rare Gecko you want
> 
> Drive back through 5 countries and deliver it straight to your door, exhausted, all because you were texting about how excited you were.
> 
> Would be a real shame to lose all those things for saving a couple of bob wouldn't it? Think more about what you will lose. and not what you will save.





Moshpitviper said:


> 10 years ago i'd have agreed with you. This hobby is no longer what it was. The last 3 snakes i have purchased privately in the past few months, I was made to wait at the door whilst the seller went and fetched the animal. If people aren't willing to talk to other keepers in person, What chance have you got of any of the above happening?
> And tbh, I understand why people are like that. You come on here for advice as a novice and get flamed by what can best be described as other novices who have likely googled their response or have heard it 5th hand from elsewhere. That person then goes away more confused than when they arrived. I will always favour the advice of a seasoned keeper over any pish i read on the internet. And in many instances, long term keepers decide to open shops. It is YOU as the customer who needs to decide WHO is a good shop to ask advice. And we all know there are plenty of good ones out there.
> 
> And as has been said a million times in this thread. Shops have bills to pay. Drop shippers do not. Hence the price difference. And most shops are working on the ssp/rrp from the wholesaler. *Old man rant alert*..... Personally, I used to like going to places like Zavvi and HMV to flick through CD's, Records and other things. I'd waste hours doing that. I enjoyed it, It got me out of the house for a bit. I can no longer really do that. Because everyone else decided it was better to order online and save a few quid. I've been denied my saturday afternoon vice. Also, many people lost their jobs.


Totally understand where you're coming from but as you say things have changed, not *necessarily for the better, as a youth I spent hours browsing the vinyl in M/C's back streets & ally's (Anybody else remember Yanks of Oxford Road ?)*


*We are buying more & more online because its convenient & in most cases considerably cheaper (new & secondhand) but as you say you cannot beat (good)advise to be gained from a shop or fellow keeper. Many more shops will fall by the wayside, those that are to survive will have to go the extra mile as it appears the shop you use does but most simply won't or worryingly can't provide this service as they don't actually have the knowledge required, the amount of crap I've heard spouted in some of the less reputable or corner pets shops is appaling, it's almost as bad as RFUK's experts at times. If these lesser shops do disappear its probably to the benefit of the hobby & the likes of RFUK, captive bred etc will undoubtedly have to try & fill the vacuum.*


*I too enjoy chatting in a number of reptile specialist shops but in some cases the peeps you end up talking to are not the experts but the shop assistants whose knowledge is frankly not good, it's not unusual to find yourself telling them the answers to a punters questions, not saying this is bad, we've all had to learn but we can't lord these shops as houses of wisdom if they'tre not.*


*The (best) reptile shops will survive or at least those that like all other businesses learn to move with the times, no doubt some that should survive won't as there business practises will let them down & then sonme who should be against the wall when the revolution comes will keep respective heads above water as they know how to make a profit, not good, in these times of austerity (I hate that word) money is unfortunately king & will rule the day.*


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## mitsi

The shops I buy my hearters etc from on ebay,, you can if you are close enough also go the shop and buy them as well as animals etc, I dont think they are drop shippers, but even though they have the overheads of a regular high street shop, as well their prices are still way cheaper, and alot of the things you say in your first post my local rep shops dont offer anyway . Too many people dont trust letting someone they dont know into their house to purchase a rep,, there was a thread a few months back where someone did and they nicked the snake, personally iwouldnt let people in either, I have done so in the past, but then ive recently purchased reps and been invited in to see them first, maybe it would have been a different response if it had of been my husband and not me, as id be more inclined to let a woman in that I didnt know than a bloke, and I know this could potentially be just as problematic. People arent as trusting anymore, as for advice from local shops etc, I have three within 4 miles of where I live, one isnt too bad, with information, the other two are terrible, and one the bloke has all certificates etc, breeds his own snakes and iggies and when you talk to him, hes clueless. So novices dont really have much coice where to get their info from, ive been keeping reps on and off for the last 20yrs, with having them permanently for the last 7,, I still consider myself a novice as things are always changing regarding care, but to get back to the point, shops need to become more competitive, I dont want to se them closing , but they also need to keep customers happy,


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## Horny Toad

Mynki said:


> A few questions for you Kevin.
> So I have to ask, and again I'm playing devils advocate but asking sincerely, are some reptile shop owners just too damn lazy to survive?
> 
> Why do they not invest more time in sourcing new innovative products and marketting them so that they sell and are not so tied to the usual Exo Terra stuff etc?
> 
> In fact maybe I should do this online now?
> 
> You've stated that you're successful and are moving with the times, so why oh why should cash concious punters worry about those who under perform?


I thought this had died off ages ago - many apologies for missing this!

I have chopped down your posting to the questions - I'll do my best, but to be honest I'm a little puzzled why they are aimed at me!

Are some shops too lazy?......................... Yes, invariably some are. They will likely not evolve and die or be to late to evolve and die.

Why are some just tied to the likes of Exo Terra?................. Because they are lazy is my guess. There is no excuse for this, my shop for example has various ranges that are not commonly stocked. And yes, as you say its relatively easy to do.

Why worry about those that underperform? ..................... Being slightly jovial about the issue - I'm not - the less competition for my business has to make business sense. When I started Coast to Coast Exotics there was very little competition out there. However I do think that it would affect the grass roots of the industry - many keepers are introduced to the hobby by the shops. 

I hope that helps, and no I have no concerns about you raising the questions - maybe a little puzzled but no problems! In essence I agree with most, if not all of your sentiments, and my posts reflect this. Sorry for the late reply!

Oh I missed one - should _*you*_ sell on-line? Only if you are not selling from your bedroom....... All light hearted, but to be honest I struggled to help much with your questions!


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## grizzlymonkyboy

i have really enjoyed reading this and there is lots of good points. from my point of view as a buyer i look for value for money yes if it is cheaper online i will order it... however i also like to support uk businesses but this is a two way street

alot of us get into the hobby buy looking round shops (as said in other posts) and some shops give great advise and help along the way and will always ensure you are ready for what it is you are buying and will continue the support. Many people may breed said animals where the two way street comes in is the shop then should support your hobby by buying some stock at a reasonable price

i have had many shops offer me a stupid price because they can get it cheaper from their supplier and the mark ups are huge, i understand they have overheads!!

i have also known shops rather stock WC then CB and would rather go to say Hamm then buy the same animal from me 

what im getting at is some shops are quick enough to take your money and not support the hobbiest 

if i walked into a pet/reptile shop and saw CB xyz bred from bob in scotland who has 25 years of experiance and vivs from abc in bradford who has been making these for 5 years i would buy knowing im also supporting 3 business 

please note this is only my opinion from the shops that are around my location who are poor in knowledge and support. to find what im looking for i need to travel to just outside B/ham and their is also a place in wales which i have heard great things about who i will also try. 

thanks

dane


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## Dragon Farm

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> i have really enjoyed reading this and there is lots of good points. from my point of view as a buyer i look for value for money yes if it is cheaper online i will order it... however i also like to support uk businesses but this is a two way street
> 
> alot of us get into the hobby buy looking round shops (as said in other posts) and some shops give great advise and help along the way and will always ensure you are ready for what it is you are buying and will continue the support. Many people may breed said animals where the two way street comes in is the shop then should support your hobby by buying some stock at a reasonable price
> 
> *i have had many shops offer me a stupid price because they can get it cheaper from their supplier and the mark ups are huge, i understand they have overheads!!*
> 
> i have also known shops rather stock WC then CB and would rather go to say Hamm then buy the same animal from me
> 
> what im getting at is some shops are quick enough to take your money and not support the hobbiest
> 
> if i walked into a pet/reptile shop and saw CB xyz bred from bob in scotland who has 25 years of experiance and vivs from abc in bradford who has been making these for 5 years i would buy knowing im also supporting 3 business
> 
> please note this is only my opinion from the shops that are around my location who are poor in knowledge and support. to find what im looking for i need to travel to just outside B/ham and their is also a place in wales which i have heard great things about who i will also try.
> 
> thanks
> 
> dane


Can you give an example of a stupid price you were offered, because they can get it cheaper from there suppliers ?


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## skilzo

I read this full thread last night and totally understand where the OP is coming from! Personally I don't think I have ordered from one of these sellers only ever used shops, blue lizard and swell but I would support shops more use only them but its over an hour drive for me to get to a place I feel comfortable spending money in a nice place which works out a good bit for petrol then will the higher costs its just not worth it 

I got my first reptile from a shop and think that if shops disappear then so will the amount of new comers to the hobby which in the long run cant be good


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## Horny Toad

skilzo said:


> I got my first reptile from a shop and think that if shops disappear then so will the amount of new comers to the hobby which in the long run cant be good


 
Its the same for the shows too, as well as the shops (heaven forbid even some of the chain pet stores on here that get a hard time still introduce new keepers to the hobby). Its a huge massive topic, one that end users, retailers and wholesalers all have a part to play. Retailing, speaking generally (not just the reptile industry), is changing rapidly, and all of us need to evolve along with it. But without hi-jacking the topic, the industry is being attacked from all kinds of angles at the moment, we all need to be fighting our corner............... Raising our game........


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