# Is it legal too... DWA Q



## pasty (Jan 20, 2008)

I cannot find a definitive answer anywhere...

Hypothetical question - obviously!

if a lad were to have brought an injured Adder to me - just some minor cuts and i were to treat said cuts and then release the snake into a safe and appropriate area, would i need to have had a DWA and liability insurance?

i cannot find a hard and fast answer! i dont intend to keep hots and certainly wouldn't keep a wild snake in captivity.

Hypothetically i would treat the snake as the hot it is.

:whistling2:

I'm sure simmilar Q's have been posted but cant find any at the mo...


----------



## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

pasty said:


> I cannot find a definitive answer anywhere...
> 
> Hypothetical question - obviously!
> 
> ...


This is a really good question.

I work in ecology and can give you an answer from an ecological perspective so here we go.

Although Vipera berus is classed as a DWA species possessing one for the purpose of treating it for injuries is not likely to get you in the *hit with the licensing people you would have to show that there is a clear reason for keeping it.

Releasing it would have to be into the area where it came from otherwise you COULD run the risk of "abandonment" which is an offence so think hard about how you were to determine a suitable area? Are you qualified to do so?

In addition there could be the risk that if you released it into an area where it didnt come from and it bit someone you could be taken to court and lose money etc.

This very scenario is often discussed within the ecological community and much is ifs and butts and hasnt been tested.

Personally the best thing to do is get someone who is professionally involved in ecological consultancy or has a valid DWA and knows the species to look after it and leave it up to them what to do!

That way no risk to you!!

Feel free to hypothetically PM me for additional advice

Great Question though!!!!!!


----------



## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Whos gona know? 

I mean really?


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

stephenie191 said:


> Whos gona know?
> 
> I mean really?


 
good question, i'm guessing the doctors at the hospital wouldn't when he went in for anti venom IF he got bit whilst sorting out the cuts


----------



## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

stephenie191 said:


> Whos gona know?
> 
> I mean really?


 Oh my, what a great attitude you have.


----------



## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Meko said:


> good question, i'm guessing the doctors at the hospital wouldn't when he went in for anti venom IF he got bit whilst sorting out the cuts


Well if your daft enough to get bit then, you only have youself to blame. 



Declan123 said:


> Oh my, what a great attitude you have.


Why? 

If he wants to do it, then more fool him! He'll do what he wants in the end anyway


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

stephenie191 said:


> Well if your daft enough to get bit then, you only have youself to blame.


 
don't think anybody would be as daft as you. You think that trying to clean and patch up cuts on a hurt and wild snake would be easy to do without it trying to tag you?


----------



## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

Meko said:


> good question, i'm guessing the doctors at the hospital wouldn't when he went in for anti venom IF he got bit whilst sorting out the cuts


doctor says: oh my word, have you been bit

adder carer says: yes, i was doing some gardening and planting new hedge rows and i think it might have been a adder that bit me.

simples


----------



## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

I have said this before..........what the hell does this have to do with the medical profession?


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

they might have to keep a log, and report, any anti-venom used. As you need a specific license and work to strict guidelines for the DWA any bites may need to be reported to make sure people aren't keeping DWA animals that shouldn't be.


----------



## Specialist Wildlife (Feb 1, 2008)

The answer is yes you do need a DWA if you are in *possession *of an adder.

If you are in the process of delivering it to a vet for treatment then you are exempt and vets are also exempt providing the animal is undergoing treatment.

If it was injured badly enough for someone to feel that it needed to be caught, then it would follow on that it would require veterinary treatment, so the situation where someone who was unlicensed had it at home would not arise.


----------



## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Meko said:


> they might have to keep a log, and report, any anti-venom used. As you need a specific license and work to strict guidelines for the DWA any bites may need to be reported to make sure people aren't keeping DWA animals that shouldn't be.


Bites are note reported! End of story


----------



## reptismail (Nov 15, 2008)

i dont know , but i you need to treat it you should rather than leaving it back intothe wild nd it most probably would ie if itwas badly injured , and i have met some one who has kept adders and caught for the last 30 years apparently withought a license ( i only met him once on the beack , when i was lizard spotting lol)


----------



## Draven (Mar 7, 2009)

stephenie191 said:


> Well if your daft enough to get bit then, you only have youself to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


in this situation your very wrong. hes not a fool for treating a snake that clearly needs it.. if he'd caught a perfectly healthy snake and was bitten fair enough.



Meko said:


> good question, i'm guessing the doctors at the hospital wouldn't when he went in for anti venom IF he got bit whilst sorting out the cuts


the doctors might ask how it happened out of interest but thats about it.



slippery42 said:


> I have said this before..........what the hell does this have to do with the medical profession?


agreed.


----------



## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Meko said:


> they might have to keep a log, and report, any anti-venom used. As you need a specific license and work to strict guidelines for the DWA any bites may need to be reported to make sure people aren't keeping DWA animals that shouldn't be.


nope. There is such a thing as patient confidentiality and all the doctors are interested in is treating the condition. Unless it's a gunshot wound or unexplained injuries to a child, there is no obligation to report any treatment to any authorities.


----------



## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

LOL its an adder, its not going to kill you! Their venom isn't that potent and even if you were allergic to it you wouldnt receive anti venom they would treat you with antihystemines.. but yeah good answer up the top there about regulations, always a nightmare with wild british animals even if you only want to help them it can be a nightmare...


----------



## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

You wouldn't need anti-venin for a _V. berus_ bite, and if you are trying to save an injured native animal, then I say do it- provided you release the animal in a suitable environment. 

I think technically once an adult adder has been removed from the wild, it cannot go back to the wild, in which case you would (technically) need a DWA to keep it. You could however, breed from it and release the offspring back into the original habitat, but you would still need the DWA for possession.

Technically speaking, although of course, the liscensees are probably slightly more worried about _B. arietans_ and _Naja_ sp. in the wrong hands, rather than a native species that has caused no fatalities.


----------



## Scarlet_Rain (Jan 16, 2009)

Meko said:


> don't think anybody would be as daft as you. You think that trying to clean and patch up cuts on a hurt and wild snake would be easy to do without it trying to tag you?


lol yeah. A snake is a snake, ofc it will try and tag you, its vunerable so would not be the fault of the person trying to help - besides a tag from an adder isnt going to do too much damage unless you are allergic to the venom then you will just curse and walk away


----------



## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

strictly_scales said:


> You wouldn't need anti-venin for a _V. berus_ bite, and if you are trying to save an injured native animal, then I say do it- provided you release the animal in a suitable environment.
> 
> I think technically once an adult adder has been removed from the wild, it cannot go back to the wild, in which case you would (technically) need a DWA to keep it. You could however, breed from it and release the offspring back into the original habitat, but you would still need the DWA for possession.
> 
> Technically speaking, although of course, the liscensees are probably slightly more worried about _B. arietans_ and _Naja_ sp. in the wrong hands, *rather than a native species that has caused no fatalities*.


Unless I am mistaken, the adder has caused fatalities, although very few. 10 in the last 100 years if I remember correctly.


----------



## reptismail (Nov 15, 2008)

ian14 said:


> Unless I am mistaken, the adder has caused fatalities, although very few. 10 in the last 100 years if I remember correctly.


One killed a girl here in north wales last year apparently ( well so i was told)


----------



## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

dober-girl said:


> Most pet fatalities result in the Spring and many veterinarians attribute this to the high concentration of potent *Hemotoxic venom* accumulated in the snake's venom glands during the hibernation period. Statistics show most recorded *snake bites* in human victims are reported from campers, hikers and farm workers. Human envenomation from the Common Adder tends to be about 100 individuals each year, averaging a dozen deaths. Some of these fatalities actually result from a severe adverse reaction to the Antivenom treatment and not the snake bite itself.
> 
> Hemotoxic venom effects the blood and organs, causing a breakdown or inflammation in the body. Hemotoxic bites are the most painful as breathing hurts and tissues start to die.
> 
> ...


Well put!

Perhaps some of the empty heads on this forum should go away and leave rational thinking to those that are capable of it!


----------



## talkativesprout (May 29, 2009)

miss read the date forget that bit


----------



## dober-girl (May 16, 2009)

If people did the slightest bit of research on venom they would have ample respect for ALL venomous snakes, not just front fanged.

Even with anti-venom, necrosis can set in and believe me that ain't pretty.

In fact:








Snake Unknown








Bite from a Bothrops asper

I'm sorry for using shock tactics here but apparantly even with data from qualified toxicologists being posted all over these forums and the net people still think it is ok to play with venomous snakes!!!

Unless you have several years of experience under an equally qualified expert stick to the non-dwa snakes!


----------



## dober-girl (May 16, 2009)

Forgot to mention this is from Myotoxin damage as opposed to the adders hemotoxin, both bites were received in poor rurual areas with limited, if any access to antivenom. That said even hemotoxins can casue limb loss, tissue damage and organ failure, meaning it is no less dangerous.

Not every snake is capable of causing this kind of damage but this is worst case scenario (aside from death).


----------



## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

The devilish part of me wants to say "if you don't think adders are dangerous, go poke one and let it bite you then come back and speak with the voice of experience"

unfortunately I think someone might just do that and, whilst I have no conscience to speak of, I don't want some firm of Shylocks beating a path to my door to sue me on behalf of someone elses lack of common dog


----------



## pasty (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the comments...

The boy that brought the snake round thought it was just a grass snake and it was quite early in the day then he stuffed it in a cardboard box.

he has been told not to touch wild snakes again but to tell someone... Problem is i'm well known through my work and going round to scout groups showing off my snakes, i tend to get asked about things to do with snakes.

I'm not overly worried about handling an adder myself, i hook my False water cobra all the time and i treat my FWC as a hot, and i know the pointy things at the front of the snake will hurt. but dont really have an interest in getting a DWA as my home isn't suitable for keeping them (when i win the lottery i may reconsider things). 

For me it was a simple method of cleaning the snake making sure it was ok overnight, giving it a mouse (left over from my dumeril) and releasing it in the area it was found. to be fair it was a calm snake and apart from a couple of hisses didn't strike at me - didn't hang around when released though.
_Hypothetically of course..._



I think that if the same circumstances presented itself again i'd do the same...

That said... can vets treat a viper with something more than superficial injuries? 

_In reply to the comments about hospitals... I know for a fact that animal attacks are recorded along with knife wounds and gun wounds - unlike knives and guns they are not reported to the police. Everyone going to A&E becomes a government statistic._


----------



## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Nice job pasty, at least you care 

But, did the adder eat? Most unusual if it did considering the situation.

All the best,
Al


----------



## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Al Hyde said:


> Nice job pasty, at least you care
> 
> But, did the adder eat? Most unusual if it did considering the situation.
> 
> ...


As Al says Wild Adders are perhaps one of the most difficult to keep and more importantly to get to eat, so did it?

Well done for caring and to your last part MOST Vets will not treat DWA species as they are neither experienced or insured to do so.

Adders can survive some serious looking injuries and those of us lucky enough to work on a professional basis with the species often find real badly scarred and knocked about ones.

You put up a very good thread but its a shame that a few empty heads decided to post!


----------



## pasty (Jan 20, 2008)

It did eat.

the snake was kept in my out building (old fashioned scullary) in a largish glass enclosure with no noises and no heat and the mouse was left with it overnight.

apart from being cleaned up earlier that day it was left pretty much to its own devices

when i can transfer the pics from my old comp wil upload a pic of it


----------



## snakekeeper (Oct 29, 2008)

Reading through this post made me chuckle.... I have the same problem with people here in Greece. I keep telling them that the horned-nose viper (vipera ammodytes) should be treated with respect and that their bite can be extremely dangerous and all I get is "nahh it's not that bad, it's too small to do any damage". Or here in Greece we simply eat ash from a tobacco plant and it cures us before we are bitten". What complete t:censor:ts. I deal with these snakes almost everyday and believe me, when I have one in front of me I most certainly get nervous. We also have the  Macrovipera lebetina schweizeri here in Greece and again people spout out such shite about how they aren't that bad for a venomous snake. The last person that I am aware of that got bitten by one had to have his arm amputated. People should get their facts straight before involving themselves in any type of discussion which could prove to affect less clued-up people who might be influenced in what has been posted. I for one have kept a few types of vipers and believe me, even after 20 years of experience I break into a sweat if I haven't hooked one i'm keeping properly when removing to clean cages. Here to my knowledge there isn't any DWA so anyone can keep anything it's bizarre.


----------



## pythondave82 (Nov 14, 2007)

A friend of mine was bitten by _vipera ammodytes,_ the consequences of the bite caused him severe problems, and he received a large quantity of antivenom on comparison with an average _vipera ammodytes __bite._

I wish people would wake up....


----------

