# Poison Dart Frog Developments...



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

Hey everyone!!
It's been far too long and I was just posting to tell you all of my viv's development!

I've got one of the 45 x 45 x 60cm Exo Terras and am in the process of preparing it for poison darts. 
I have decided to go for a paludarium in that the front section of the tank will be a pond/lake area. I've heard that Poison Darts can actually swim, just not very well and need a place where they can easily leave the water if they need to. This is being accounted for - don't worry!

I've bought all the substrate needed, a heat mat, a thermostat, a hygro/thermometer combo, a fog machine (£££££), an external filter, a lighting canopy, some planting substrate for the pond area and some more stuff which i can't quite remember at the moment...

I was just posting to tell everyone! I'll post some pics ASAP but i've got a lot on at the moment so it might be a while...

Sandy


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

Bump!


----------



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

sounds good! but just something id mention... ive first hand experience of a dart frog drowning in 1cm of water from the vase of a bromeliad - id really recommend getting rid of the water... just my 2p 


piccies! : victory:


----------



## chrism (Jul 5, 2007)

A bit pi**ed, so excuse spelling etc: For a 1st dart setup. K.I.S.S= Keep it simple. 

No real need for a heat mat, a thermostat, a hygro/thermometer combo, a fog machine (£££££), an external filter.

Heat mat: unless live some where that really gets cold in the winter (scotland etc), then just not needed).

Hygro' you will quickly learn if the tank looks moist enough or not.

What do you mean by fog machine: internal or external? External are ok, internal generally bad news.

Without souning insulting, exos are a bit poo' for dart tanks. Too many gaps for flies to escape, and not great for humidity. Get some glass cut to cover the top mesh.

As the pretty miss chondro says, darts really are bad swimmers. Ditch the water area until more experienced... Just more problems than worth.


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

ABout the water issue - if that is the case, can anyone suggest a dart frog that CAN swim if any? Or any other kind of frog that can swim (not aquatic though)? more of a tree frog type maybe...

The thing is i've ordered loads of stuff because, after reading several posts on forums, i was under the impression that darts can swim just not very well. I was prepared to provide pieces of bogwood or mopani wood for them to get out of the water. I ordered a canister filter and some aquarium gravel and silicone. 

With regards to pics, its not very interesting atm and it just looks like an exo terra tank...

chrism, i've already paid for the fog machine (by which i mean the Super Fog Misting system) which cost me £70. And its an external one.
I've already got a heat mat/thermostat and a thermometer/hygrometer so i'll just keep them running when live plants/animals are in for their general welfare.
And also, i'm more than willing to cover up any gaps in the exo terra (which flies would be able to fit through) with aquarium silicone or something similar.

One final question:
Is the glass on top of the tank really necessary if i've got an under tank heater and hygrometer? i just thought that, because orchids like ventilation and i like orchids, i'd be able to get away with it if i got the necessary equipment.

Thanks v. much!!!


----------



## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

I too have recently set up a Dart frog Terrarium, in a 90cmX45cmX60cm, and have a group of 5X Dendrobates tinctorius. For advice on its set up, I followed the examples laid out in the series "Jewels of the Rainforest", written by Marc Stanisewski, published in the first five editions of Practical Reptile Keeping magazine, and also the Samples & Wattley book "Poison Dart Frogs".
I also got great advice from the Frog breeder, Dr Simon Townson. 
From all of this, I deduce that fully metamorphosed Dart frogs are really not good at swimming at all. Therefore, I would recommend that you do not have water in their set up, which is too deep. I use a small water feature, in the Terrarium, which is just a pebble pool to enhance the Humidity to an average of 80%. Bromeliads, orchids and a tropical Vine are all growing well in this environment, which I set up about four months before the frogs were introduced. This allowed the ecosystem to settle down, and until I was sure that the plants had established properly.
The set up is in a north facing Conservatory, and aside 10% UV bulbs, the whole Terrarium gets high levels of natural light as well.








The frogs have now been in the set up since mid July, and aside feeding and being sprayed twice a day, their requirements are very easy to cope with.
Fantastic project, which has been extremely rewarding.


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

I worked out that the water would be about 4" deep. And also, on everything else I have read on the internet it says that the poison darts can swim, but not very well and you need to provide a place for them to get out easily.

I don't know who to believe (not meaning to sound offensive though!) because i'm getting mixed messages. 

Geomyda, are your frogs ok in a conservatory because wouldn't the dramatic temperature fluctuations have some sort of effect on the frogs?

To resolve the water issue, I could create a landing space for them on top of the pond so they can't actually get into the water. i could cover it with eggcrate or some other kind of material and put pebbles over the top. Therefore, the frogs wouldn't be able to get in but I would still be able to put the equipment i purchased to good use!!
Would that be a good solution?

Thanks very much for all your advice - you guys might just have saved my froggies!! :2thumb:

Sandy


----------



## philbaines (Aug 23, 2007)

geomyda....

would you share any info you have with me please?

any info you can email me?

also would love to see more pics?

phil.


----------



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

rafapepa said:


> I worked out that the water would be about 4" deep. And also, on everything else I have read on the internet it says that the poison darts can swim, but not very well and you need to provide a place for them to get out easily.
> 
> I don't know who to believe (not meaning to sound offensive though!) because i'm getting mixed messages.
> 
> ...


 
the problem isnt necessarily that their poor swimmers (which they are) but scuffles do occasionally break out between the frogs (especially females! dont keep females together!) but they have been known to hold each others heads under the water. i really wouldnt have any more than 1cm of water in with dart frogs. 

im sure you can still use your equipment just make the water area MUCH shallower. my water feature is a waterfall with a stream to a pebble beach which lets water fall through the bottom - so no standing water. the deepest area is about 5mm-1cm deep i would think. 

As i say - i have first hand experience with a frog drowning. if you choose to read other reviews online then that is up to you, and im sure some people have kept them with water without fatality in the past, but its a risk that i would never take. You can make stunning setups without it : victory:


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

I read something that made alot of sense regarding darts and water...

Darts can only drown each other if they can reach the bottom...so if your slant into the water is quite severe but easy to climb, they cant do it...BUT...the general consensis is that the water should be shallow...why not use very large rounded cobbles to shallow it...it will give the illusion of deep water but will still be shallow enough for frogs, this also looks more natural...as streams often have cobbles poping out....

Just think of a darts habitat...they mate in tiny puddles and in the pockets of water found in plants, they dont come into contact with deep pools of water enough to know the instinct of swimming. 

Just some ideas through my research though, I dont own any.


----------



## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

philbaines said:


> geomyda....
> 
> would you share any info you have with me please?
> 
> ...


Pm'd references


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

Well i definitely wouldn't be getting 2 females!! :gasp:

I think i've decided what I'm going to do...

I'll draw up a plan on paint or something similar!!


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

I hope this link has worked!! :yeahright:


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)




----------



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

that'll do the job :2thumb:


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

: victory: Phew! I'm so glad you said that!

So I'm ok to go ahead with the whole fish section just as long as I separate it from the darts?

_-*UPDATE*-_ 
I received my Fog machine today (Its an external one and it works wonderfully!) I kept it on for about 5 mins today and it brought the humidity in the viv from 57% to 86%!! :gasp:
I also installed the heater and thermostat but didn't turn it on because it would be wating energy. i think i would need to keep it on because the temp was at 66.5F and it needs to be at 70 - 80F doesn't it!

Thanks for all your help!! :thumb:
Sandy


----------



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

rafapepa said:


> : victory: Phew! I'm so glad you said that!
> 
> So I'm ok to go ahead with the whole fish section just as long as I separate it from the darts?
> 
> ...


 
darts do MUCH better being a little too cool than a little too warm - ive even heard of some being transported in freezing temperatures and appearing dead but then 'woke up again'. whereas they will quickly die if even a little too warm.

I suspect the viv will warm up to room temperature with time (obviously so long as your room temperature is 70-80 lol! which most houses are though - check this  )

id be hesitant to use any additional heating unless it really is cold in your house.

your fish/frog seperation should work just fine! :no1:


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

thanks for the tips - the reading might have been low because the sensor was against the cold glass... and the room is normally a moderate temperature!


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

would you recommend i get some sort of humidity controller to operate my misting system, then?


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

Anyone?

Also, I have a bit of a problem with the lighting issue in the fish section. Basically I wouldn't be able to see the fish because of the divide. has anyone got any suggestions as to what i can do?

Thanks!


----------



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

rafapepa said:


> thanks for the tips - the reading might have been low because the sensor was against the cold glass... and the room is normally a moderate temperature!


Yep i wouldnt use any additional heating in that case : victory:



rafapepa said:


> would you recommend i get some sort of humidity controller to operate my misting system, then?


Nope - shouldnt be necessary with darts as the higher the humidity, the better with them to be honest! just keep an eye on it so it doesnt drop too low but you cant really have it too high in my opinion. 



rafapepa said:


> Anyone?
> 
> Also, I have a bit of a problem with the lighting issue in the fish section. Basically I wouldn't be able to see the fish because of the divide. has anyone got any suggestions as to what i can do?
> 
> Thanks!


Have a look see if you can get underwater LED lights or something? dont want the water too warm remember! also how will you feed the fish? youll have to make a trap door or something?


----------



## rafapepa (Jun 7, 2009)

Thanks for the answers! the only thing about the humidity is that i won't be around in the day to turn on/off the mist machine. I could just put it on an automatic timer that works at certain times during the day though.

I found a solution to the lighting problem in the fish area - I've got an arc pod lighting unit that i'm not really using so i can just put that on the left hand side of the tank, shining into the water. I'm gonna feed them by lifting up the divide just for feeding and maintenance.


----------

