# RSPCA Press release - DWAA



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

*RSPCA: Changes to dangerous wild animals Act cause concern. *

_Monday, 08 Oct 2007 08:13 _

The RSPCA is concerned that more people could buy exotic pets without knowing how to look after them properly - and potentially put the animal or themselves at risk now that 33 species no longer need licences.

Changes to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976, which recently came into effect, have taken many animals including racoons, emus, sloths and squirrel monkeys off the list of animals for which licences are needed. 

Tim Thomas, RSPCA wildlife scientist, said: "The RSPCA is disappointed and concerned that several exotic species have been removed from the Dangerous Wild Animals Act schedule. 

"Many exotic animals are not only potentially dangerous to humans but are extremely difficult to look after properly and need specialist care.” 

The RSPCA campaigned against the decision because many of these animals are extremely difficult to look after properly and being named under the Act meant that a vet was required to inspect where the animal will normally be held before a licence was issued. 

The Society is urging people to research whether they can properly look after exotic pets before they buy them and all pet shops to inform customers of the welfare needs of the animals they sell. 

The RSPCA carried out a survey of 282 pet shops in England and Wales - as part of a report called The Welfare State due to be published later this month - which showed that: 
· only twenty per cent of shops provided free care sheets to potential buyers and excluding one major pet shop chain, this went down to just five per cent · 20 per cent of potential pet buyers were given no care advice whatsoever · two per cent of pet shops sold crocodilians, such as caimans · of reptiles surveyed, only 25 per cent of cages displayed information about how big the animal inside would grow.


<SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Previous research carried out by the RSPCA shows that the most common problems exotic pet owners experience (reported by more than 40 per cent of keepers) stem from a lack of information provided by the supplier. Some 21 per cent reported difficulties simply feeding their pets, while eight per cent said their pets were growing too fast. 

"We understand that Defra will be undertaking a full consultation on the Act in the near future and the RSPCA will again make its concerns known," added Mr Thomas. “However, we are pleased that some additional species were added to the list, such as the thin-tailed scorpion and the Amazon false viper. 

"The new Animal Welfare Act puts a duty of care on pet owners to meet all the welfare needs of their animals, and we urge people to thoroughly research their choice of pet before they buy it and make sure they can look after it properly." 

- ends - 

Examples of animals which need specialist care but are not protected by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act : 

Pythons and boa constrictors: 

The RSPCA has long campaigned to have these snakes, which can grow to more than two metres in length, added to the list of animals which must be licensed under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act. But they were not among the species recently added to the Act. 

As well as being potentially dangerous, these jungle snakes are difficult to look after properly as they get bigger, needing a large, heated vivarium with environmental enrichment such as a pool in which to immerse themselves and branch-work, and an appropriate diet. 

Sand cat: 

The sand cat was one of several species of exotic small cats recently taken off the schedule of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act. 
Despite being small, they are completely unsuitable as a house cat. 
The semi-nocturnal cats, which originate in African and Asian deserts, require a warm dry environment which can be difficult to create, and a large complex habitat in which to roam. 

Emu: 

Many experienced keepers declare these animals as potentially dangerous as a forward kick of the foot can cause serious injury. 
They require large areas in which to roam and need to be kept in small groups. 

Racoon: 

They may look friendly but can inflict serious bites. 
They are social animals and need company. They are very inquisitive and require a complex environment to provide for their welfare needs. 

Changes to the Act: 

The following species, which are no longer considered to present a threat, have been removed from the Schedule and will no longer require licences: 
Woolly lemurs (Avahi laniger) 
Tamarins (species of the genera Leontopithecus and Saguinus) Night (or Owl) monkeys (species of the genus Aotus) Titis monkeys (species of the genus Callicebus) Squirrel monkeys (species of the genus Saimiri) Sloths (Bradypodidae) North American porcupine (Erithizon dorsatum) Capybara (Hydrochaeridae) Crested porcupines (species of the genus Hystrix) Cat hybrids (whose ancestry is predominantly Felis silvestris catus - the domestic cat) Wild cat (Felis silvestris) Pallas cat (Otocolobus manul) Little spotted cat (Leopardus tigrinus) Geoffroy’s cat (Oncifelis geoffroyi) Kodkod (Oncifelis guigna) Bay cat (Catopuma badia) Sand cat (Felis margarita) Black-footed cat (Felis nigripes) Rusty-spotted cat (Prionailurus rubiginosus) Cacomistles (species of the genus Bassariscus) Raccoons (species of the genus Procyon) Coatis (species of the genus Nasua) Olingos (species of the genus Bassaricyon) Little coatimundi (Nasuella olivacea) Kinkajou (Potos flavus) Binturong (Arctictis binturong) Hyraxes (Procaviidae) Guanaco (Lama guanicoe) Vicugna (Vicugna vicugna) Emus (Dromaiidae) Sand snakes (species of the genus Psammophis) Mangrove snake (Boiga dendrophila) Brazilian wolf spider (Lycosa raptoria) 

The following species, which have been added to the Schedule, will now require licensing: 
Argentine black-headed snake (Elapomorphus lemniscatus), Peruvian racer (Tachymenis peruviana), South American green racer (Philodryas olfersii), Amazon false viper (Xenodon severus), Middle Eastern thin-tailed scorpion (Hemiscorpius lepturus) and Dingo (Canis familiaris dingo) 

RSPCA, Wilberforce Way, Southwater, Horsham, West Sussex RH13 9RS Press office direct lines: 0300 123 0244/0288 Fax: 0303 123 0099 Duty press officer (evenings and weekends) Tel


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

> The RSPCA carried out a survey of 282 pet shops in England and Wales - as part of a report called The Welfare State due to be published later this month - which showed that:
> · only twenty per cent of shops provided free care sheets to potential buyers and excluding one major pet shop chain, this went down to just five per cent · 20 per cent of potential pet buyers were given no care advice whatsoever · two per cent of pet shops sold crocodilians, such as caimans · of reptiles surveyed, only 25 per cent of cages displayed information about how big the animal inside would grow.




If that is true... it's rather shocking.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

If true it is, the problem is accepting anything the RSPCA say today as being accurate, far to many times they have been shown to be disingenuous, or in plain talk they lie – cry wolf to many times and know one will believe you!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It might be true but 282 shops is selective. I compiled a list a few weeks ago over 140 specialist exotic reptile shops alone. Of pet shops in the UK, there are no doubt thousands.

They are not saying specialist exotic pet shops, just pet shops. The one major chain is no doubt pets at home which has a very basic leaflet on all the basic animals it sells - but does not sell exotics anyway.

The majority of small shops selling a hamster are not going to give a caresheet.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2007)

The R.S.P.C.A lie..? why cant we prove they bullshit and bring them out into the open for doing so ?


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## Onissarle (Mar 1, 2007)

SteveL said:


> The R.S.P.C.A lie..? why cant we prove they bullshit and bring them out into the open for doing so ?


They're rich, powerful, politically connected and no-one will risk a frontal assault because they simply can't afford to take on the RSPCA in court. I'd love for someone to do a TV documentary exposing some of the things they do but it's very unlikely to happen.

As for the petshop figures, it's already been said that it's probably a very selective list. Statistics are more often used to destort the truth to justify a point of view than they are to actually represent the real state of things. The governement is famous for fiddling immigration figures to hide the truth. Personally, I'd like to see their raw data and a list of all the shops included before I trust the 'results' of their survey.


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## Aquilus (Feb 22, 2007)

SteveL said:


> The R.S.P.C.A lie..? why cant we prove they bullshit and bring them out into the open for doing so ?


Because a lot of what they say is phrased as an opinion. Reading that press release, they believe that reptiles make bad companion animals because they are potentially dangerous, and that specialist knowledge is required to provide the correct environment, and that doing so is difficult. I'd disagree, maintaining that in many cases they are no more dangerous than a dog or a cat, that the knowledge required to care for them is widely available, and that the correct living conditions can be provided without undue difficulty. But that's a difference of opinion, not something that can be outed as a lie.

Scare stories that the public read (such as that ludicrous situation where a guy bought a reticulated python thinking it was a ball python, complete with quotes like "it could have killed my daughter!!") doesn't help sway opinion in our favour.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

hmmm... i think i get it now. the british government can't trust it's citizens to be competent at most anything. therefore they must pass laws to protect the british people from themselves.

"Many exotic animals are not only potentially dangerous to humans but are extremely difficult to look after properly and need specialist care."

yes they musn't have the british people entrusted with anything that is potentially dangerous.

"Racoon: 

They may look friendly but can inflict serious bites. 
They are social animals and need company. They are very inquisitive and require a complex environment to provide for their welfare needs."


-next they'll be taking away the kitchen knives!!-






bunch of hog wash if you ask me...


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2007)

Then its surely time that all these localised groups such as the FBH ERAC EHS ESRAS etc etc join up and unite to become as big as they can to defeat these bloody control freaks !!!


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## Julie&James (Sep 24, 2007)

HABU said:


> hmmm... i think i get it now. the british government can't trust it's citizens to be competent at most anything. therefore they must pass laws to protect the british people from themselves.
> 
> yes they musn't have the british people entrusted with anything that is potentially dangerous.
> 
> ...


It's not like things are particularly different in the States, with the exception of the wonderful right you all have to shoot each other at random, which frankly I'd rather not copy thanks very much.

You're actually just as regulated and constrained as us, in many cases moreso, and trying to paint this as a peculiarly British "nanny state" problem is just silly.

Does anyone NOT think that SOME animals at least should be restricted to licensed sales only ? Common sense would seem to suggest that the government has a role in overseeing the process to some degree.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Athravan said:


> They are not saying specialist exotic pet shops, just pet shops. The one major chain is no doubt pets at home which has a very basic leaflet on all the basic animals it sells - but does not sell exotics anyway.
> 
> The majority of small shops selling a hamster are not going to give a caresheet.


Yes, but is not part of the AWA that every animal sold should come with a care sheet or guide ?


I have to agree with Habu. A racoon is far too dangerous an animal to keep... but a 10 stone Rottweiller ? No problems !!!


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Yes, but is not part of the AWA that every animal sold should come with a care sheet or guide ?
> 
> 
> I have to agree with Habu. A racoon is far too dangerous an animal to keep... but a 10 stone Rottweiller ? No problems !!!


 
It might be, but as the AWA have made no effort to inform pet shops of this, no leaflets, no letter, no information.. pet shops aren't pyschic... and I would imagine that many of the older pet shops have absolutely no idea that anything is changed or that they are meant to be doing anything different. 

I personally supply a caresheet with every single animal in my shop, and most of the reptile shops I know do too - but all of the small shops that sell hamsters/budgies etc. don't, except for [email protected]


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

> *Pythons and boa constrictors:
> *
> The RSPCA has long campaigned to have these snakes, which can grow to more than two metres in length, added to the list of animals which must be licensed under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act. But they were not among the species recently added to the Act.
> 
> As well as being potentially dangerous, these jungle snakes are difficult to look after properly as they get bigger, needing a large, heated vivarium with environmental enrichment such as a pool in which to immerse themselves and branch-work, and an appropriate diet.


This part is just silly. What have vivariums, pools, branch work and diet got to do with an animal being on the DWA ? The animal is either a danger to the public or it isn't.

It does not matter if the snake has to be potty trained, capable of running the government or able to get a degree in maths ... it does not make it dangerous... Well... maybe the being a politician bit would.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Eastern PA Reptile Rescue - ohio


*Summary of Law:* No person may bring into the state a non-domestic animal unless the possessor: obtains an entry permit; health certificate certifying the animal is free of infectious diseases; and a certificate of veterinary inspection. Persons in the state possessing non-domestic animals do not need to obtain a permit.

 that's it!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I think there is some good points in there, not so sure about the statistics but alot of the concerns they have raised are ones already discussed on the forum and raised by Rory.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I don't understand why they would only select 280 odd pet shops to "survey" those statistics simply can't be realistic, especially if they picked the 280 that were convenient to show the answer they wanted.

Surely one of the larger organisations could do an accurate survey of the thousands of pet shops, perhaps asking the pertinent question additionally "Are you aware of the AWA and what it means to you as a retailer..." and expose some facts?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Athravan said:


> I don't understand why they would only select 280 odd pet shops to "survey" those statistics simply can't be realistic, especially if they picked the 280 that were convenient to show the answer they wanted.
> 
> Surely one of the larger organisations could do an accurate survey of the thousands of pet shops, perhaps asking the pertinent question additionally "Are you aware of the AWA and what it means to you as a retailer..." and expose some facts?


there stats are questionable, but its a sad fact that alot of petshops sell animals with no caresheets or even bothering to ask basic questions.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

in my state, they are only worried that the sheep and cattle may get,

(1) Brucellosis
(2) Tuberculosis (mycobacterium bovis)
(3) Pseudorabies
(4) Equine infectious anemia 

and so on. it's in my link. and about us shooting each other...well, i made reference to the kitchen knives.........think about it...:grin1:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Athravan said:


> I don't understand why they would only select 280 odd pet shops to "survey" those statistics simply can't be realistic, especially if they picked the 280 that were convenient to show the answer they wanted.
> 
> Surely one of the larger organisations could do an accurate survey of the thousands of pet shops, perhaps asking the pertinent question additionally "Are you aware of the AWA and what it means to you as a retailer..." and expose some facts?


 

it's called an agenda! ...:lol2:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I read a police officer went on a rampage in Wisconsin yesterday and killed 6 people then got snipered, I also read some of your statistics on violent crime, being as bad as certain 3rd world african countries, IMO your laws are questionable at the best of times Habu, not that ares are not, some of are laws are pathetic and ridiculous, but we have a totally different style of stupid laws over here:lol2:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

It's not like things are particularly different in the States, with the exception of the wonderful right you all have to shoot each other at random, which frankly I'd rather not copy thanks very much

yes our system is sooo much better,only the criminals are armed and British citizens are not allowed to protect themselves or their property...BLOODY WONDERFUL oh i forgot government agencies such as the police are also sometimes armed but wonderfully incompetent,using their weapons to intimidate the public such as at airports where i recently observed a police man standing with his heckler and koch submachine gun pointed directly at some people waiting to get their tickets,and not forgetting shooting the wrong people on a regular basis,leaving weapons and ammunition behind at crime scenes etc etc Britain has its "nanny state" tag for a very good reason and with regards to reptiles its gonna be super nanny state with the government and rspca in charge of everything you do,give me some American style freedom any day in exchange for our crap
regards gaz


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

DANG GAZ!!.....that's a mouthful!:lol2::lol2:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

its not complete freedom of choice over in the states though is it Habu? from what I have gathered from different forums it depends on where you live some states are stupidly strict, in California your not allowed to keep any exotic mammals, some states large constrictors are regulated and licensed, some no venomous allowed, it all depends on where you live.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

HABu you have to understand that people over here are seemingly afraid of having freedom and independance,the only reason that i can see to explain why Britain is in such a bad way is that the public would rather the government decide on how our lives progress rather than having to do it themselves.
personally i am armed and would rather be able to legally protect my property and those people i give a shit about,rather than depend upon the police and government who will not be there at the critical moment and who dont give two hoots either way,they are much more interested in protecting burglars and supporting the rspca in thier efforts to restrict our freedom,than in allowing any British citizen to decide their own destiny and pursue their own interests while being able to protect those freedoms and interests from those who would destroy them and seek to oppress us as we go about our daily business.
but then if the great British public allows or wants this state of affairs,it will continue simple as that.
soon enough we will all be wrapped up in cotton wool so we cant injure ourselves:lol2:but then thats just the opinion of a British subject who still maintains some pride in his country and some hope that we can extricate ourselves from this horrible state of affairs that we find our selves in,was time when the Union Jack flew over large parts of the world,now we have a country thats so weak we couldnt take on a small island in the south pacific where the natives are armed with pointy sticks!
regards gaz


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## Julie&James (Sep 24, 2007)

gaz said:


> HABu you have to understand that people over here are seemingly afraid of having freedom and independance,


Nice strawman. Personally, I'm not afraid of freedom or independence, but I'm damn glad the government legislates against certain things, otherwise running the gauntlet of the typical mouth-breather in the street would be even more hellish than it already is.



> the only reason that i can see to explain why Britain is in such a bad way is that the public would rather the government decide on how our lives progress rather than having to do it themselves.


Or maybe it's because we have a sensible electorate who understand that civilized societies need rules and regulations and that freedom ALWAYS comes with responsibility, and doesn't harbour some naive and idealistic concept of libertarian fantasy that we can all just regulate ourselves and live in peace and harmony. 



> personally i am armed


Jesus. Armed with what ? What exactly could lead you to live in so much fear that you arm yourself (I assume - of you mean a firearm - illegally since personal firearms are almost impossible to own here legally) ? Against whom are you supposing you might use these arms ?



> and would rather be able to legally protect my property and those people i give a shit about,


Again, what arms do you have that would allow you to legally defend your property ?



> rather than depend upon the police and government who will not be there at the critical moment and who dont give two hoots either way,they are much more interested in protecting burglars and supporting the rspca in thier efforts to restrict our freedom,than in allowing any British citizen to decide their own destiny and pursue their own interests while being able to protect those freedoms and interests from those who would destroy them and seek to oppress us as we go about our daily business.


Read the Daily Mail much ?



> but then if the great British public allows or wants this state of affairs,it will continue simple as that.
> soon enough we will all be wrapped up in cotton wool so we cant injure ourselves:lol2:but then thats just the opinion of a British subject who still maintains some pride in his country and some hope that we can extricate ourselves from this horrible state of affairs that we find our selves in,was time when the Union Jack flew over large parts of the world,now we have a country thats so weak we couldnt take on a small island in the south pacific where the natives are armed with pointy sticks!
> regards gaz


I'm not sure where you live, but your view of the UK doesn't really have anything in common with anything I've ever experienced, and I live in the largest and (statistically speaking) most "dangerous" city in the country.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Julie&James said:


> Nice strawman. Personally, I'm not afraid of freedom or independence, but I'm damn glad the government legislates against certain things, otherwise running the gauntlet of the typical mouth-breather in the street would be even more hellish than it already is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
do you work for Labour??:lol2:


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## Julie&James (Sep 24, 2007)

SiUK said:


> do you work for Labour??:lol2:


Nope, but I am old enough to remember Tory government. Are you ?

This issue isn't party political anyway. I didn't say I like a LABOUR government, I said I'm pleased that we have a government that regulates our society. These nonsensical libertarian ideas of unfettered freedoms and the wild west are just juvenile.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I cant remember a tory government but I do know that alot of what Gaz said is true.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I don't understand why they would only select 280 odd pet shops to "survey" those statistics simply can't be realistic, especially if they picked the 280 that were convenient to show the answer they wanted.
> 
> Surely one of the larger organisations could do an accurate survey of the thousands of pet shops, perhaps asking the pertinent question additionally "Are you aware of the AWA and what it means to you as a retailer..." and expose some facts?


They probably chose the 280 worst pet shops in Britain to fill in their questionaire or whatever it was they did!

They never asked us but they know about us because they sent us posters and leaflets about the new AWB and an owners obligations to their pets, nothing was said about shops!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

SiUK said:


> its not complete freedom of choice over in the states though is it Habu? from what I have gathered from different forums it depends on where you live some states are stupidly strict, in California your not allowed to keep any exotic mammals, some states large constrictors are regulated and licensed, some no venomous allowed, it all depends on where you live.


 
right! ....it's the UNITED states. each state is a government unto itself. each state has it's own army and air force even. in a lot of counties in kentucky, it's dry. no alcohol. 50 little countries under a federal system.
that's what's so great about it. you can live anywhere you want and live under those laws. heck! prositution is legal in areas.... it's about freedom... freedom to live where ever you like and under what ever laws you choose. i'm not an expert on the united kingdom, but as a layman it seems that things are pretty homogenous there. americans just don't like government crawling into bed with us. spying on us. controlling us. we are all grown adults and know how to behave aren't we? to make sound decisions? but anytime you have to take away freedoms from the many just to control the few,...well, everybody loses. ..and yes, i'm not a british subject, but i consider so many here to be friends of mine... i was taught that tyranny anywhere is tyranny for all.

sorry. but there are outstanding keepers and just good people there.
i just would hate to see their"PURSUIT OF FREEDOM" get squashed.


I BLEH-BLEH-BELEIVE...THAT'S ALL FOLKS!!!:lol2:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

my fire arms are legal and i've been burgled before.both times catching the perpetrator in the act and both times nearly being arrested for simply ejecting then from my property,i now have probably in excess of £100,000 in snakes here and burglars are getting more violent,i supose you are suggesting that i help the next one take all my property??
regards gaz


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

why dont we stick to our country, and the topic chris has posted, 

I can believe the stats on shops,even tho i dont know whether they are tainted, almost certainly the shops asked were not specialist shops, but even within our own fraternity there are still shops who fail to observe the basic requirements. Personally i think it would be great if the traders work together to establish certain protocols and practises so everyone is playing off the same hymn sheet, by working together we can improve the hobby and improve outside views of the hobby, all of us love reptiles and by doing it to the best possible level of husbandry, we will be viewed far better, and by working together reptile husbandry will be pushed forward and upwards.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

by the way i'm a 45 year old professional snake breeder with a degree,not some uneducated teen ager
regards gaz


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

leptophis said:


> why dont we stick to our country, and the topic chris has posted,
> 
> I can believe the stats on shops,even tho i dont know whether they are tainted, almost certainly the shops asked were not specialist shops, but even within our own fraternity there are still shops who fail to observe the basic requirements. Personally i think it would be great if the traders work together to establish certain protocols and practises so everyone is playing off the same hymn sheet, by working together we can improve the hobby and improve outside views of the hobby, all of us love reptiles and by doing it to the best possible level of husbandry, we will be viewed far better, and by working together reptile husbandry will be pushed forward and upwards.


I agree with that mate, more shops I have bought from dont ask any questions or give caresheets than do, just from posting here I have seen some appaling conditions that reptiles are kept in pet shops in the UK.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Nope, but I am old enough to remember Tory government. Are you ?

ha ha!! some of my ancestors were "TORY'S":lol2:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

anyway back to the rspca its all oppression of one sort or another
regards gaz


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

bringing on comments raised on a recent topic concerning a shop in the midlands area refusing to sell a lizard based on a persons choice of housing they deemed unappropiate it said to me whatever approach shops take theyll always be faults with people either getting offended over them doubting their ability or buying something they have no idea of its eventual size..its never the fault of the buyer when theres books,equipment sold in the shop and online guides the shop will always get the brunt of the blame
i agree with leotophis..a system of guides made availiable to every shop would make things a lot better
regarding the DWAA topic..anything can be dangerous...rodents are capable of very deep bites but are said to be really good kids pets


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## Julie&James (Sep 24, 2007)

HABU said:


> right! ....it's the UNITED states.


You also have a federal government, and in many cases, federal law overrides state law, so it's hardly a lot of little countries, more like our system of counties - just bigger. 

Also .. in the land of the free .. protesting against the government has to take place in allocated "protest zones", your agencies spy on you, your police are a law unto themselves, and Homeland Security means that a lot of the stuff enshrined in your constitution is now null and void.

Not trying to do your country down, but you seemed to be claiming that the USA was one big old freedom party, and Britain was some sort of neo-marxist nanny state, and that's just not the case.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Julie&James said:


> You also have a federal government, and in many cases, federal law overrides state law, so it's hardly a lot of little countries, more like our system of counties - just bigger.
> 
> Also .. in the land of the free .. protesting against the government has to take place in allocated "protest zones", your agencies spy on you, your police are a law unto themselves, and Homeland Security means that a lot of the stuff enshrined in your constitution is now null and void.
> 
> Not trying to do your country down, but you seemed to be claiming that the USA was one big old freedom party, and Britain was some sort of neo-marxist nanny state, and that's just not the case.


 

yeah, keep reading whatever you're reading... federal laws are always..purposely minimal and vauge by design. it's called states rights.

and "allocated" protest zones? freedom of speech is a consitutional guarantee. but you are right, we can't protest where ever we want, like the UK. public saftey does come first. the queen would hate for the castle to be wrecked.

but i feel it is as you say, a "BIG OLD FREEDOM PARTY" here. and i wasn't putting down great britain, it's, of course not my place...even in opinion. a government or political party does not a nation make. it's all about the people and their fair and proper right to live unmolested by overlords.

believe me, if you think you have some problems, we can let george bush run your home for eight years or so. .. it's a wonder we survived.

but no, i would never attack your country.... maybe it's goverment,.. you know how those things come and go...: victory:


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Shouldn't you make a new thread if you want to discuss countries and politics :roll:?...it has nothing to do with the RSPCA and shops and at the end of the day if you don't like where you live, nobody is forcing you to stay there so just move and quit the moaning :razz:.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

and people wonder why some think forums are a waste of time


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

sorry guys I think I started this off


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

if you don't like where you live, nobody is forcing you to stay there so just move and quit the moaning :razz:.[/quote]

thats on the long term agenda unfortunately,so you'll be down one boa breeder then:lol2:
regards gaz


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

makes me laugh ratboy, waffling on about some other poxy country when were meant to be discussing the future of the hobby and trade,


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

to be honest though the statement they made has valid points in it, for once. Its not about saving the hobby, in this instance.


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## Mez (Feb 19, 2007)

i like a few things in the rspcas comments, one made me chuckle especially. reffering to "boas and pythons", generally, "these jungle snakes", haah, its like predator..
tbh, yes, i think all shops should offer a caresheet on the basic stock they get in. But what happens when they get one or two of something a bit rarer, say an odd malaysian import with bugger all refferences to print out? not much they can do there.
my opinion, is that the shops should have to obtain some sort of liscence/paperwork to sell certain large snakes (afrocks, burms etc) just so that it has been officially recognised that these shops claim to know how big they get, and therefor would inform the customer.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Mez said:


> But what happens when they get one or two of something a bit rarer, say an odd malaysian import with bugger all refferences to print out? not much they can do there.


Why would a shop have something in if they do not know what it is or how to care for it ?

As far as I am aware, you get the species you order... you don't just say "Can I have some snakes please" and take what you're given.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

we have to supply care sheets and pertinent info at European shows,its not exactly a problem
regards gaz


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

I take it those rules don't apply to private breeders (who don't sell through shops or at shows)?


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

guess not,i have only encountered compulsory care sheets at Hamm/Houten
regards gaz


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## Mez (Feb 19, 2007)

ok let me use me as an example.
next week im getting some "undescribed cyrtodactylus" that have come from a remote area of malaysia...go find me some info on that, and make it into a worthy caresheet? it just isnt possible without the experience of keeping them...


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Mez said:


> ok let me use me as an example.
> next week im getting some "undescribed cyrtodactylus" that have come from a remote area of malaysia...go find me some info on that, and make it into a worthy caresheet? it just isnt possible without the experience of keeping them...


No, the point I was trying to make is that the shop should not be selling animals that it cannot tell a prospective buyer how to care for properly.

It is not my problem... I don't want to go and find some worthy info and a care sheet on it... I want the person who is selling it to me to be able to tell me what it is and how to look after it.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

gaz said:


> guess not,i have only encountered compulsory care sheets at Hamm/Houten
> regards gaz


Most of the UK shows stipulate that animals should be sold with a care sheet don't they ? I know I have always supplied them here.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

never noticed that in any of the bumph they supply,i usually have them with me,but then my customers are not normally beginners,so care sheets are superfluous in my case
regards gaz
ps:i dont bother much with UK shows so there may well be "caresheet required" for ones i dont attend


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

I think the whole system just needs a rather large shake up to be honest...

The RSPCA are basically trying to scare people into believing these animals are dangerous. The DWAA is just for that, dangerous animals that are dangerous to the public. 

The RSPCA want repile keeping banned because a) they don't want to folk out the expense in caring for unwanted reptiles and b) they don't want to expense in training there staff correctly ! We are partly to blame for a) because there are people that sell animals knowing the person cannot look after it correctly or they simply don't care because money is money. 

The DWAA is not for large constrictors, but maybe there should be another licence needed in order to keep them. Personally I think a yearly fee for such other reptiles/animals is a decent idea. I for one wouldn't mind paying a bit if it meant detering others into buying something they cannot care for. Give this money to the RSPCA, but use it to train specialists in certain areas. Of course the chances of that happening are very slim.


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## Aquilus (Feb 22, 2007)

welshgaz said:


> The DWAA is not for large constrictors, but maybe there should be another licence needed in order to keep them. Personally I think a yearly fee for such other reptiles/animals is a decent idea. I for one wouldn't mind paying a bit if it meant detering others into buying something they cannot care for. Give this money to the RSPCA, but use it to train specialists in certain areas. Of course the chances of that happening are very slim.


I'll be damned if any money extracted compulsorily from me, under pain of a criminal conviction if I don't pay, should be given to an extra-statutory 'charity' like the RSPCA to continue their propoganda campaign and further their political machinations. And you'd find the people such a fee is meant to deter would just ignore it (like the folks who treat insurance, road tax and an MOT as an optional extra on their car) while punishing the responsible among us.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Most of the UK shows stipulate that animals should be sold with a care sheet don't they ? I know I have always supplied them here.


I have bought maybe 50 animals from UK shows and only ever had 2 caresheets and those were from tarantula barns stall and were millepedes and giant ghana snails :lol2:


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Athravan said:


> I have bought maybe 50 animals from UK shows and only ever had 2 caresheets and those were from tarantula barns stall and were millepedes and giant ghana snails :lol2:


Must just be me then  :lol2::lol2:


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Most of the UK shows stipulate that animals should be sold with a care sheet don't they ? I know I have always supplied them here.


It's not on the list of rules for IHS tableholders, we've got a couple of tables at rodbaston so have the latest gumf from them.

don't know about shows organised by other bodies though, this will be our first as a trader.

Mason


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Now I can understand them wanting a DWAA to be applied for an anaconda or retics but all pythons and boas? There are some smaller pythons and boas that need less space and are not as difficult to keep as others so surely they should set some kind of limit not just ban all?


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

nuttybabez said:


> Now I can understand them wanting a DWAA to be applied for an anaconda or retics but all pythons and boas? There are some smaller pythons and boas that need less space and are not as difficult to keep as others so surely they should set some kind of limit not just ban all?


I can't, the DWAA was set up to protect the GENERAL PUBLIC not the life of the keeper or out of any welfare concern for the animal being housed. They've tried to push for the large constrictors going on for years but have been advised that it goes against the act as they're only a threat to their keeper and thus would be easily challenged in court.

I'd happily accept a licensing system for the larger constrictors though just DWA doesn't fit IMO.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

I think pet shops should have extensive questionnaire sheets on each animal they sell. Wouldn`t take any longer than printing out care sheets and if the customer was serious about buying i`m sure they wouldn`t mind spending a bit of time filling in a tick box sheet. Anything with a less that 100% score is a no sale. Care sheets can be given but aren`t always followed, at least with something like this it ensures that both buyer and seller have to know about what they`re selling.: victory:


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

My thoughts are ANYONE selling an animal, at a show , at home or a shop _should_ have a duty of care over that animal.

Under the AWA, they DO have a duty of care.

This means they should satisfy themselves that the buyer has the knowledge, or access to the knowledge and intention of acting upon that knowledge.

Now, Steve and I ALWAYS have care sheets for EVERY species we offer. Many times its clear that the buyer already has that knowledge, so does not need the care sheet. Other times one is handed out, and they ALL carry our phone numbers, email and web addresses in case.

We dont leave them out on display as they do cost to print, and 'collectors' take them all, leaving none for buyers.

As far as a lack of info, do you really think that such species where there is no readily available care info is really suited to being a pet?

All the more reason why all societies should adopt the FBH guidelines !

We have only been asked twice at shows if we have care sheets by the vet, once at Norwich a while back, and at the AES show. At Doncaster a year or so ago we were talking to the woman on the DEFRA stand who was suprised we had them.

Anyways, the report has a point that that many outlets did not supply the info, thats what we as a hobby need to correct, and soon, b4 its done for us.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> I think pet shops should have extensive questionnaire sheets on each animal they sell. Wouldn`t take any longer than printing out care sheets and if the customer was serious about buying i`m sure they wouldn`t mind spending a bit of time filling in a tick box sheet. Anything with a less that 100% score is a no sale. Care sheets can be given but aren`t always followed, at least with something like this it ensures that both buyer and seller have to know about what they`re selling.: victory:


I believe Reptile Zone in Bristol has something similar in place. Problem is knowing a snake gets to 16ft and ticking a box won't prepare you for one of that size. It's just numbers on a page until the point it's there in front of you.

Also another point is that animal care (moreso reptiles) is just opinion and people disagree on a lot of things. What works for one keeper doen't always work for another etc.etc.


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## Aquilus (Feb 22, 2007)

Fangio said:


> I can't, the DWAA was set up to protect the GENERAL PUBLIC not the life of the keeper or out of any welfare concern for the animal being housed. They've tried to push for the large constrictors going on for years but have been advised that it goes against the act as they're only a threat to their keeper and thus would be easily challenged in court.


As far back as 1984, the RSPCA was sticking its nose into things and attempting to blur the rationale for the act. Tamarins (those tiny endangered primates from south america) made it onto the amended list from 1984 as a 'Dangerous Wild Animal' because the RSPCA pushed for them to be included on welfare grounds, rather than them posing any actual danger to the public. This document makes informative reading: http://www.defra.gov.uk/science/project_data/DocumentLibrary/WP01013/WP01013_3997_FRP.pdf


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> As far as a lack of info, do you really think that such species where there is no readily available care info is really suited to being a pet?


Info is only obtained by people keeping those animals. You think everyone had the answers when reptile keeping first started?

Rare (with no or little info available)/difficult stuff is best left for experienced keepers only and should be set up to try and breed from to stem the flow of WC for that species.

Totally agree with the rest of your post.


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## Fangio (Jun 2, 2007)

Aquilus said:


> As far back as 1984, the RSPCA was sticking its nose into things and attempting to blur the rationale for the act. Tamarins (those tiny endangered primates from south america) made it onto the amended list from 1984 as a 'Dangerous Wild Animal' because the RSPCA pushed for them to be included on welfare grounds, rather than them posing any actual danger to the public. This document makes informative reading: http://www.defra.gov.uk/science/project_data/DocumentLibrary/WP01013/WP01013_3997_FRP.pdf


Thanks for that I read the first few pages and will digest the rest later on (93 pages!!). They haven't managed it yet with the larger boids but one death in this country will probably see that they do. They were pushing for all constrictors over 2m to go on the last amendments!:lol2:


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

Onissarle said:


> They're rich, powerful, politically connected and no-one will risk a frontal assault because they simply can't afford to take on the RSPCA in court. I'd love for someone to do a TV documentary exposing some of the things they do but it's very unlikely to happen.
> 
> As for the petshop figures, it's already been said that it's probably a very selective list. Statistics are more often used to destort the truth to justify a point of view than they are to actually represent the real state of things. The governement is famous for fiddling immigration figures to hide the truth. Personally, I'd like to see their raw data and a list of all the shops included before I trust the 'results' of their survey.


Now someone or a group of people taking on the RSPCA would be an interesting experience. But it's never going to happen. As i heard being said at the Basildon show, It can be done taking down the antis for their slander and general false accusations, but it would cost in the hundreds of thousands to do it, by taking them to court one by one. Who would be willing to fund such an action?



Aquilus said:


> Because a lot of what they say is phrased as an opinion. Reading that press release, they believe that reptiles make bad companion animals because they are potentially dangerous, and that specialist knowledge is required to provide the correct environment, and that doing so is difficult. I'd disagree, maintaining that in many cases they are no more dangerous than a dog or a cat, that the knowledge required to care for them is widely available, and that the correct living conditions can be provided without undue difficulty. But that's a difference of opinion, not something that can be outed as a lie.
> 
> Scare stories that the public read (such as that ludicrous situation where a guy bought a reticulated python thinking it was a ball python, complete with quotes like "it could have killed my daughter!!") doesn't help sway opinion in our favour.


what ever you read in the press at the moment about anything reptile related, even if it's informative, the reporter generally makes comments saying they disapprove of any kind of herp keeping, that small news story on that man somewhere in the UK who ran a reptile rescue.. the reporter was saying things like "now why anyone would want to keep a snake is beyond me" Comments such as that would never aid the herp keeping hobby.

And that story of the woman having to repeatedly kick a burm in order to stop it from eating her dog.. Does us no justice.

Can't someone or a group of people attempt to get in the press and have articles showing that reptile keeping is not (generally) dangerous? 



HABU said:


> -next they'll be taking away the kitchen knives!!-
> 
> bunch of hog wash if you ask me...


Lol Sorry, just made me laugh.



SteveL said:


> Then its surely time that all these localised groups such as the FBH ERAC EHS ESRAS etc etc join up and unite to become as big as they can to defeat these bloody control freaks !!!


Sorry, but this will never work as people are with Societies generally because they have their own agenda (Spoke to PureJurassic earlier about this) groups don't seem to work together (as stupid as that sounds) theres obviously the main reason... a power struggle is automatically started.. and the problems branch out from there. Obviously people don't have the same opinion. Now thats where the groups like the antis get on well together.. They have one agenda.. 



ratboy said:


> Yes, but is not part of the AWA that every animal sold should come with a care sheet or guide ?
> 
> I have to agree with Habu. A racoon is far too dangerous an animal to keep... but a 10 stone Rottweiller ? No problems !!!


Any dog can be dangerous. My cousin has a puppy staff. Now while playing with her, she loves gently gnawing on my hand.. Today she yanked her head away while gnawing and left me with a cut that bled for a little while. Most dogs have sharp teeth.. If required they will use it. So why aren't the RSPCA trying to add dogs to the list? lol. 



Athravan said:


> I don't understand why they would only select 280 odd pet shops to "survey" those statistics simply can't be realistic, especially if they picked the 280 that were convenient to show the answer they wanted.
> 
> Surely one of the larger organisations could do an accurate survey of the thousands of pet shops, perhaps asking the pertinent question additionally "Are you aware of the AWA and what it means to you as a retailer..." and expose some facts?


In my 2nd year at uni, they had a couple of classes which helped introduce you to understand what a dissertation is etc.. Now the tutor explained that if while carrying out your dissertation you were looking to doing a questionnaire.. You are required to send out AT LEAST 15 times the number of questionnaires you're hoping to get back. Because generally people wont pay attention to questionniares, or if asked in person, they wont give exact answers..

Now the RSPCA have probably only targetted pet shops they've already got knowledge that these shops aren't up to scratch anyway.
They wouldn't pick the best known shops to carry out these questionnaires, because it wouldn't aid RSPCA in their aims to get their point across now would it?



nuttybabez said:


> Now I can understand them wanting a DWAA to be applied for an anaconda or retics but all pythons and boas? There are some smaller pythons and boas that need less space and are not as difficult to keep as others so surely they should set some kind of limit not just ban all?


I agree here.. they didn't generalise in what species of python and boa they would want added to the list.. there are, as most of us know, boas and pythons that don't grow large at all.. and obviously retics are pythons, so why didn't they list more species of python?


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Fangio said:


> Info is only obtained by people keeping those animals. You think everyone had the answers when reptile keeping first started?
> 
> Rare (with no or little info available)/difficult stuff is best left for experienced keepers only and should be set up to try and breed from to stem the flow of WC for that species.
> 
> Totally agree with the rest of your post.


Thats the point I am making. How many animals have died in captivity because some one thought they wanted one, couldnt get the care right and ended up with an expensive dead animal?

Yes , when reptile keeping 'first started' it was the norm to 'try and see' but back then the hobby wasnt under attack as it is now. 

Many of us here will have quite large collections, but the majority of reptiles kept as pets are done so by sole pet owners, not breeders etc.

Rare or non documented animals are only suited to experianced keepers, and as such really dont have a place in a pet shop on sale to general public.

Breeding to stop WC is kinda a dream right now, cos we all wana be the first to do it !


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

Giving out care sheets is ok if you don't have 3 collages within 15 miles that do animal care course. you can spend 2 hours explaining the basics on snakes and then thay want to know about lizards then tortoises this will pull your air out and this can happen 4/5 times mid week and at weekends 9/10 times so insteed of doing there work and looking up the animal they go to the local reptile shop And ask for care sheets you will be printing the dam things all day long ..............That is quit possibly why reptile shop owners sometimes seem pissed off............Brian
Ho yes he does give out a care sheet when an animal has been BOUGHT.

Im not into an arguement on this so no need to try and point out what shop owners should be doing or shouldent be doing as iv seen this for my own eyes


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Well thats a seperate issue. theres the after care and advice for the animal buyer and then the students who cant be bothered to learn.

thats prob why so many of the rspca graduate experts know jack about keeping animals for real.

Maybe this shop near the colleges can contact them, explain whats going on, maybe its an earning situation, go in and give a presentation to the class?

I have already said we had problems with 'collectors' so now do not place care sheets on display.

Maybe there is a need for a central place to keep and distribute care sheets. Of course, the age old argument is no one will ever agree on the best way, but basic ground rules can always be ajusted. That way these students can be directed to a website where they can download and print to thier hearts content.

As to if we agree on care, as long as the info given is not harmful to the animal, then its all good info for first time buyers and blows a bl**dy big hole in the antis propaganda.

Sorry, I just dont think there is any excuse for not being able and willing to give advice to a buyer. If there is local reasons that interfere with this then these reasons need to be addressed, not used as an excuse.


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

yup I agree I would be happy to work with other shops and try to work off the same hymnsheet, this is the kind of things i would like to see in every shop, am not preaching but I think shops working together is the way forward, so we can together aid keepers in the best possible husbandry and species for that person, 

caresheets which pretty much say the same thing

a kind of checklist which shops go through and includes explanations of thermostats, uv lighting, and why it is necessary, food types and diet requirements, cages and sizes, 

maybe a cage label system which may have a socring system that people can see the difficulty level of the species

information sent out to shops of the lastest discoveries and information, such as uvb research, diets, books,


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

leptophis said:


> yup I agree I would be happy to work with other shops and try to work off the same hymnsheet, this is the kind of things i would like to see in every shop, am not preaching but I think shops working together is the way forward, so we can together aid keepers in the best possible husbandry and species for that person,
> 
> caresheets which pretty much say the same thing
> 
> ...


 
Alot of this dose make sense but its been said before and no dout will be said again. The reason why it will be hard to implement is people do thing different .IE feeding how often, vivariums or contico, UV lights should be changed every 6/9/12 month ?, tortoise hibernate or not, stats or not, breeding age or weight, I do agree with you but people will llwys do things the way they want


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## rockkeeper (Apr 5, 2007)

perhaps that whats need on top of the care sheets, this is only a guide as there are many ways to achive the same results


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

I agree with you people do things differently, but there are many things shops can agree on, and that would be a start


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

just an idea but if all exotic shops know of the idea maybe most of them would agree considering it would benefit them in the long run, why not ask them what advice they give when they sell a perticular exotic and total up the most common way? and use that as a guide 
Just personal thoughts being said out loud


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Maybe there is a need for a central place to keep and distribute care sheets. Of course, the age old argument is no one will ever agree on the best way, but basic ground rules can always be ajusted. That way these students can be directed to a website where they can download and print to thier hearts content.
> 
> As to if we agree on care, as long as the info given is not harmful to the animal, then its all good info for first time buyers and blows a bl**dy big hole in the antis propaganda.



This is what we are trying to achieve with Herpcare - Caresheet News - New caresheets added - News The site is not affiliated to anybody and anyone, shops included can print them out to hand out to their customers with an animal. No care sheet takes more than 2 sides of A4 and they are to the point and factual.


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

yup thats a good idea steve, maybe we can get the shops affiliated with it


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

perhaps one of the best ways would be to have page set up with a poll on every thing that ya could think off and then the basics could be picked out of that.........


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

brian said:


> Giving out care sheets is ok if you don't have 3 collages within 15 miles that do animal care course. you can spend 2 hours explaining the basics on snakes and then thay want to know about lizards then tortoises this will pull your air out and this can happen 4/5 times mid week and at weekends 9/10 times so insteed of doing there work and looking up the animal they go to the local reptile shop And ask for care sheets you will be printing the dam things all day long ..............That is quit possibly why reptile shop owners sometimes seem pissed off............Brian
> Ho yes he does give out a care sheet when an animal has been BOUGHT.
> 
> Im not into an arguement on this so no need to try and point out what shop owners should be doing or shouldent be doing as iv seen this for my own eyes


Have the sheet. and when they ask. Give it to them. surely it should cover the majority of their questions


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## brian (Oct 22, 2005)

He does but the students want one for every single animal and when they get going no stopping um so he now has to try decide who is serious and who is not as animal course dont just cover reptiles......


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## Joey (Jul 29, 2007)

Not read every single post thoroughly, and will ignore the us/uk argument entirely (not that it doesn't interest me just doesn't seem the place). But, the more I hear about the RSPCA through here the more my childhood memories of Animal Hospital are tainted!

Verily, by the name, the Dangerous Wild Animals Act should contain animals that are, indeed, dangerous. Conversely, on the 'specialist care' side of the argument, almost EVERY animal needs some kind of 'specialist' care. You can't keep a dog in a tank, feed it mice once a week and otherwise let it sleep under a rock all day.

Aren't there just as many, if not more stories of animal neglect as regards to things that are 'easy' like dogs and cats. These animals are also incredibly expensive, you have to feed and water them daily, walk them at 3-4 times a day, take them to the vets, get them shots, wormed, etc! If to go on the list you just need to be difficult to look after, hey, I think dogs should be on and a lot of snakes should be off it! (Not anti dogs by the way, I love mine).

Also, on the dangerous side, I concur with what another person said about rottweillers. I'm pretty sure if you trained them, or indeed, any OTHER dog to be vicious, it would be ten times more dangerous than a tag from your average python. I'm aware of the dangerous dogs act, but not really sure it covers a dog that is dangerous per se as much as a breed that is considered to be? Not a clue myself.

I don't think I'm adding anything new to the argument, just agreeing that it's slightly ridiculous, and it makes me very sad considering I used to think very highly of the RSPCA in my oh so naive days. But I also have some horsey friends and they say that the officers who regulate farm/horse shows are useless. Some gypsy/pikey/whatever was selling dogs out the back of a van and they were in an awful condition. RSPCA said they couldn't do anything. Rubbish.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Retail way forwards.....*

I think this is a subject that will always create confusions, but always generate interesting and valid points and there are a lot of those present.

Care Sheets/Guides/Pamphlets are the way/s forwards to ensuring that new and experienced keepers are always informed of the legislational and learning curve agendas.

Leptophis raises interesting points, and they tie in with some of my own. Recent threads of mine have suggested that retailers need to be working alongside each other to ensure that all reptile keeping traffic walking through the doors whether even browsing or with a view to purchasing and indeed doing so need to be aware of the husbandry conditions to do with each species that is present.

I have quite possibly walked into more reptile arenas of late due to Nerys and the show scene than ever before, and l am a novice to the point of extreme embrassment of calling species the 'very wrong names' such the kondro or as l call it due to its spelling ch ondro [yes l do know how to spell it lol] to just simply not grasping that England even had lizards. 

So l am a beginner, and whilst l have viewed some care sheets, bought some books and read internet literature - l am far from nearing anything like knowing what it takes to care for the most basic of reptiles. Nerys of course is like a walking encyclopedia on many species and with her academic zoological brain - l am currently being taught the colours - not the genetics - just colours of the corn snake!! That is the most frustrating thing on the planet, hemel this, amel that mmm.

However if not for Nerys' patience l would be restricted to simply having to rely on my good wisdom and hopefully the right information supplied to me by the seller of a reptile, be that whatever it may be.

I think that many are right here, general duties of care, husbandry, codes of conduct which ever must be in store, and as said whether a browser becomes a buyer or simply to remain a viewer until purchase that all kinds of information must be made readily available at all times. 

Would l object to a care sheet being awarded to me on departure of a reptile store on one or several species that l had expressed an interest upon - no not at all.

The biggest problem many will have is we all know quite simply that irrelevant to whether some possible buyers are awarded care sheets or not, it will always come down to the actual readers themselves as to whether they 'read' what is in front of them?


"I agree with you people do things differently, but there are many things shops can agree on, and that would be a start" _Leptophis_

And this is all too true, retailers working together would be a very strong way forwards.

"yup I agree I would be happy to work with other shops and try to work off the same hymnsheet, this is the kind of things i would like to see in every shop, am not preaching but I think shops working together is the way forward, so we can together aid keepers in the best possible husbandry and species for that person, 

caresheets which pretty much say the same thing

a kind of checklist which shops go through and includes explanations of thermostats, uv lighting, and why it is necessary, food types and diet requirements, cages and sizes, 

maybe a cage label system which may have a scoring system that people can see the difficulty level of the species

information sent out to shops of the lastest discoveries and information, such as uvb research, diets, books" _Leptophis_

As said Leptophis raises very concerning points, and this is one area that PKL has been looking at with some committment to the point of trying to encourage a system that would incorporate an administration of such to allow a network of retailers working as such. 

It is something l am in discussion with my retail advisors even now as l write and threads like this are made more general subjects.

"maybe a cage label system which may have a scoring system that people can see the difficulty level of the species"

This could be very easily implemented to stores, there are probably many stores who currently work this and probably just as many whom do not, but it would be ideal to display at a glance what level of competance was required by that keeper. In so doing if it was a difficult species then it would come down to the retail seller themselves to test by speaking to potential buyer where their level of keeping skill was at and if not up to par to discourage the sale for when they had more experience.

TSKA are constantly slated for our vetting protocol which was implemented for the animals welfare, as well as the clients piece of mind, and also because as an internet seller we are unable to see the buyer in front of us, and of course l am often burned at the stake for refusing to sell species to some people, because they do not like to be told that they are not of the right level of experience to keep such a species.

Retailers with the buyers in front of them, can identify where the weaknesses are, and advise correctly and not be focused so much on a higher sale value, but the correct sale to the right buyer. 

Ensuring that if a buyer leaves having not bought anything - [that time] that the person leaves feeling a little more enriched in knowledge and the good chance that they will return because the staff at the shop are knowledgable and care about how the animals fare with a new buyer. Leaving with a care sheet or sheets in hand is certainly going to be the most viable way for business to return to that store and friends of visiting the store for repeat business and new business.

Care sheets in store act also as advertising media for you, as well as showing to all non keepers who visit that as retailers you are showing a very valuable comodity to the people frequenting your store. 

Sure these guides may add a little expense to your overheads and budgets, but advertising learning curve knowledge in this way can go a long way to improving communications and relationships between buyers and sellers as well as one would hope legislational followers.

Rory Matier 
Pro Keepers Lobby


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