# Fox attack in London on Twins.



## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Isabella and Lola Koupparis: baby twins 'mauled by foxes' while asleep in their cots - Telegraph

Fox attack.

Your thoughts.....


I know what mine are being a country lass. No I do not agree with Hunting with a pack hounds, I think the gun method is far better and works and less stress involved.
This is what happens when Urban people feed and encourage Foxes. Getting them to come in their houses and the excess food waste people leave.


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

Heh, think we posted the same thread at pretty much the same time!


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

I am with you......
quite frankly I see the feeding of foxes as daft as someone putting food out for rats


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

I agree, re: the feeding and potential encouragement of animals such as these. It's a horrible incident, but it is one that is fortunately very rare. I hope the positive things that could come out of this is that people acknowledge that they could be more vigilant in deterring (or at least not encouraging) animals like foxes around their property as things like this can happen. I hope it generally makes people more vigilant as a whole, but what is indubitably going to happen is that there is going to be a knee-jerk reaction from the red top papers calling for an eradication programme or something. I made the mistake of reading _The Sun_'s coverage of it this morning where the fox had already been labelled an 'evil beast' and a moral panic is just brewing. They're going to be the new rotties after this incident, which is pretty sad i.m.o.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

TBH it no different from kids getting chewed on by rats, It happens in London quite alot. I dont agree with hunting but I do agree with keeping your house virmin free so killing them with poison or traps is fine if they come into your house or garden also keeping the place clean and not feeding them is the key, We have built on most of the country side now so animals will come into towns and citys looking for food cant really blame the animals blame the dirty people that dont bin there rubbish.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

I certainly think that they should be seriously controlled in Urban areas. Just in the same way as Rats are. 
They do carry many Diseases which our Domestic Dogs and Cats can contract.
We waste so much food, which encourages Vermin to raid it from Bins, and since most of us are now on Fortnightly bin collection. The rise of Urban Chicken Keeping. Etc etc.

Yes, they do need control. Gun and Trapping methods are best in my eyes.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

rum&coke said:


> TBH it no different from kids getting chewed on by rats, It happens in London quite alot. I dont agree with hunting but I do agree with keeping your house virmin free so killing them with poison or traps is fine if they come into your house or garden also keeping the place clean and not feeding them is the key,* We have built on most of the country side now* so animals will come into towns and citys looking for food cant really blame the animals blame the dirty people that dont bin there rubbish.


 
Not true, we have vast amounts of Farm and Parkland in the UK.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

people that put food out lead to very brazen foxes. they are becoming semi tame , which is dangerous.
Foxes are a big spreader of mange in both urban and suburban areas as well.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Pimperella said:


> Not true, we have vast amounts of Farm and Parkland in the UK.


very true but the south east and around London is very built up, I pretty sure Foxs and other wild animals dont have maps and sat nav to guide them off to the vast amounts of parkland and farms and woods that are left so they just adapt to city life


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

People can be so stupid - one person wrote that all foxes should be killed because they're the only creature in Britain that kills for pleasure.

Clearly oblivious to the human race, then.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

pippainnit said:


> People can be so stupid - one person wrote that all foxes should be killed because they're the only creature in Britain that kills for pleasure.
> 
> Clearly oblivious to the human race, then.



I wonder if that person owns a cat :whistling2:


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Was wondering when this was going to happen.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I've just replied on Pippa's thread about this.

Having read the comments on here I think if we weren't now a race of people who eat on the street and dump our unfinished food anywhere we can, we wouldn't have made towns such a great place for foxes to thrive in! I spend my life when walking my dog preventing him from picking up half eaten kebabs, burgers and the like! :bash:

I get totally fed up of explaining to people that foxes have 'larders' for lean times and don't kill for pleasure.

Just because they get into a chicken coop and kill all the chickens and take only 2 (for instance) doesn't mean they killed the rest for no reason. They take away what they can carry and cache it, then come back for the rest. Unfortunately often by then the chicken keeper has discovered what has happened and the fox can't get the rest of his food.

So sorry to hear about these twins though - it definitely sounds odd that the fox would willingly come into the house and then go upstairs, because normally they would have a fear of being trapped.

We have young foxes at my work who have been nursed and are very tame, but they are still hesitant about coming too close to us and they know us. 

I did find myself wondering if the family have been feeding and encouraging it to come to the house and maybe even come into the house?


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

feorag said:


> I did find myself wondering if the family have been feeding and encouraging it to come to the house and maybe even come into the house?


I agree. It may seem cynical but these things do happen, and as much as I completely feel for them going through this wretched thing, I do think that a lot of people are guilty of just throwing bits out into their gardens (and on the streets, etc.) and don't associate the dangers of encouraging animals like foxes into their gardens. Yes they're pretty to look at, but all too often people don't realise the implications. I doubt we'll ever know the exact details behind this event (I especially doubt that anyone in that area would admit to encouraging foxes or anything), but I do hope that if any positive is to come out of this situation then hopefully people will be vigilant about the dangers/implications and that the whole thing is dealt with sensibly. That's what's been so disheartening about the whole reaction to the story is that the tabloids etc. are having a field day ranting about the 'evil beasts' and it has the potential to turn into another 'devil dog' saga.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, that's the media for you. It always has to have an 'over the top' sensationalised header, whether it's true or not!


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm all for cleaning up the junk that is allowing them to thrive in big numbers and not encouraging them to be tame but I don't want to see them shot or trapped.There's sod all wildlife in the built up city where I dwell and what bit there is,foxes,badgers,pigeons,sparrows,starlings and a few others brighten my life.It's a terrible thing what has happened to the babies but incredibly rare,parents are a bigger danger to babies.


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## JPP (Jun 8, 2009)

they left the door open at night? stupid parents imo
poor babies


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

JPP said:


> they left the door open at night? stupid parents imo
> poor babies


 
Thats not uncommon when your still awake you know?

I have my back door open all evening in the recent hot weather. All windows upstairs open aswell. We are awake, and in the back room with the door to the back garden. 

I do however have 16 dogs so I don't tend to worry about Foxes. It would be dead if one dared come in our garden. Just a fact of having a large amount of dogs and poultry. 

Foxes are sly, they can be very quiet when they are searching out something new and they wouldn't have made a noise as they slipped inside. They can get over child gates with ease so if these were in place then they would not have been a barrier against them in any way. 
If it was a window, then again, a fox can easily jump in an open window. 
Urban foxes become very brave about searching for food and young male foxes can be worse as they are bold as brass.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

I just read this article on Sky and popped over here to see if anyone was discussing it.

I think this case is really fishy. They left their door open at 10pm in London and their children unsupervised upstairs!
They're lucky this "phantom" fox (it doesn't mention that anyone saw it) was all that got in. There are things far worse than foxes creeping about the streets of London at night.

And how are they even certain it was a fox? Just because they saw foxes in the area?
I had a wild_ cat_ creep in to my house and go for my dog a few months ago, what's to say that's not what happened?
A cat is much more likely to creep into your house than a fox is. Perhaps we should go out and have all of the cats culled too, just to be safe.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

Another thing - _two_ children were allegedly "mauled".
Surely the first one started crying when it was being bitten.
So what were the parents up to, that they didn't hear their baby in time to stop the attack on the second child.


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## kellysmith1976 (Jun 10, 2008)

Luxy said:


> Another thing - _two_ children were allegedly "mauled".
> Surely the first one started crying when it was being bitten.
> So what were the parents up to, that they didn't hear their baby in time to stop the attack on the second child.


Thats exactly what i was thinking....
I dont know why they are saying Fox... I mean obviously it _could _have been a fox.. But im not convinced..
Must have been a very brave fox, to come into house, aviod being seen by parents, who must have been downstairs, then go up the stairs.. find babies room, and attack one bub, and then the other.. all without being seen.. 
Hopefully more of the story will come out soon.. i mean did the parents chase it away, or did it go of its own accord??

Ok now ive just read this on SkyNews... So they have 'humanely killed' a Fox.. they dont know whether it was the right one though!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK..._Killed_At_House_Where_Baby_Girls_Were_Bitten


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

kellysmith1976 said:


> Thats exactly what i was thinking....
> I dont know why they are saying Fox... I mean obviously it _could _have been a fox.. But im not convinced..
> Must have been a very brave fox, to come into house, aviod being seen by parents, who must have been downstairs, then go up the stairs.. find babies room, and attack one bub, and then the other.. all without being seen..
> Hopefully more of the story will come out soon.. i mean did the parents chase it away, or did it go of its own accord??


Yeah, they didn't mention when/why/how the fox escaped. I think the full details should be revealed, rather than just little bits suggesting it _may_ have been a fox. There are probably some people already setting their own traps and getting guns out "just in case".

And of course, it's all great news for those who want fox hunting legalised again. If the media can convince people that it's not safe to leave your door open in case a fox gets in eats your kids, they'll have no opposition.


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## kellysmith1976 (Jun 10, 2008)

I volunteer for a Fox charity, I go and rescue and also foster babies in the spring.. ill have to give them a call and see what their take is on it all....
Just does seem a bit fishy... 
Conservatives wanted another vote about Fox hunting... and now... well like you said...


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

cant really comment as i will be fmaed till the cows come in I do regular vermin shoot and that includes foxes, I was actually out on friday shooting, Foxes do need controlling and it mean stupid but its for the foxes own good, left to there own good there food sources o down causing lots of problems, just tke a look at urban and town foxes, you can see the differnce


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

the fox was in the childs bedroom when the mother responded to the screams and she saw it.


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

I think the advice on the news about it at the moment is as usual total sensationalism! Telling people to be aware, keep all their windows and doors shut for gods sake!!! 

I mean if your over 5, then you don't have much to worry about from a fox.


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## kellysmith1976 (Jun 10, 2008)

Oooh i just found this... Your right Sarah, It says here mother saw the fox.. It didnt say that on the Sky news...
Still seems a bit odd.. 
BBC News - Mother's 'nightmare' after baby twins 'mauled' by fox


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Interesting debate - we have foxes in our area and they take trainers and gardening gloves as they smell the leather. I know of 3 occasions where a fox went into a room and started chewing a leather armchair, and one where the fox got into a open top car and chewed the leather around the gear stick, and finally where the owner of the house met a fox coming downstairs after he had been in her room attacking her leather purse.

However, for someone to leave the downstairs back door (or whatever) open whilst the babies were asleep upstairs is not the most sensible thing to do. Afterall, anyone or anything could have wandered in, and they obviously did not hear them.


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

Stephen P said:


> Interesting debate - we have foxes in our area and they take trainers and gardening gloves as they smell the leather. I know of 3 occasions where a fox went into a room and started chewing a leather armchair, and one where the fox got into a open top car and chewed the leather around the gear stick, and finally where the owner of the house met a fox coming downstairs after he had been in her room attacking her leather purse.
> 
> However, for someone to leave the downstairs back door (or whatever) open whilst the babies were asleep upstairs is not the most sensible thing to do. *Afterall, anyone or anything could have wandered in, and they obviously did not hear them.*


A fox sneaking in is one thing, a human sneaking in is completely different.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

feorag said:


> I've just replied on Pippa's thread about this.
> 
> Having read the comments on here I think if we weren't now a race of people who eat on the street and dump our unfinished food anywhere we can, we wouldn't have made towns such a great place for foxes to thrive in! I spend my life when walking my dog preventing him from picking up half eaten kebabs, burgers and the like! :bash:
> 
> ...


 
I agree.

And the fact that most of us now have to use compost bins that are only emptied every two weeks, so lots of food sat around rotting.

I also think it is very odd that a fox will go into a house, up the stairs and attack two babies.
There was either something very, very wrong with that fox, or it has been encouraged.
The other option is its a hand reared fox that is badly imprinted. Which can and does happen. Some people think they know what there doing when rearing wild animals and then just release them into the wild without thinking if they can handle the big wide world.
My friend has two badly imprinted badgers living in his garden that were rasied by a rescue group and released, they they started attacking people randomly, so he caught them and now live with him.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

there was another incident a year or two back involving a child left in the conservatory I think.Thats the only other I can think of in my entire life.Lots of wild animals can be a danger if tame,grey squirrels spring to mind and members of the crow family who have been hand reared and then released attack people.Familiarity breeds contempt I guess.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

sarahc said:


> there was another incident a year or two back involving a child left in the conservatory I think.Thats the only other I can think of in my entire life.Lots of wild animals can be a danger if tame,grey squirrels spring to mind and members of the crow family who have been hand reared and then released attack people.Familiarity breeds contempt I guess.


 
can't remember how long ago it was, but it was reported all over, of the fox that dragged a toddler off in the early hours of the morning.

But just Google Fox attack Child.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-436361-fox-attacks-sleeping-baby.do


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

and on another news report, the attack happen on Saturday, traps were set up and 'A' fox was caught on Sunday and PTS by a Vet. (not sure on that as any pest controller would have a decent rifle and are normaly shot in the trap to prevent any distress in moving the fox or getting it out of the trap and risking injury to itself which would be causing unneeded pain and suffering and to prevent people from being hurt aswell. So I can't see it having been taken to a vet, that will be a media spin to make it sound better than shot in trap with gun by licenced gun holder after the recent cumbrian shootings by a licenced gun holder.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

bosshogg said:


> cant really comment as i will be fmaed till the cows come in I do regular vermin shoot and that includes foxes, I was actually out on friday shooting, Foxes do need controlling and it mean stupid but its for the foxes own good, left to there own good there food sources o down causing lots of problems, just tke a look at urban and town foxes, you can see the differnce


I've got no issue when people kill vermin with a genuine reason. Whether it's mice, rats, rabbits, foxes, if that's the way people choose to remove the animals causing harm to their property then they should be entitled to. Particularly in rural areas where massive amounts of damage can be done in terms of property destruction, loss & theft of livestock, parasites, etc.

I do agree that foxes need to be kept under control in urban areas too. But at the same time, sensationalising a one in a million case like this might cause some people to see them as a bigger threat than they actually are.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i'm with the fishy lot on this one.

A fox got in to the house, decided to run up the stairs and pick the room with twins in. Then it mauled them both before running out when the mum came in.
Straight past the bins, kitchen, parents and the four year old but managed to find the twins and maul them both before being spotted and then managed to run out... The only person who witnessed a fox was the parents.


fishier than Captain Birdseye's freezer.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Meko said:


> i'm with the fishy lot on this one.
> 
> A fox got in to the house, decided to run up the stairs and pick the room with twins in. Then it mauled them both before running out when the mum came in.
> Straight past the bins, kitchen, parents and the four year old but managed to find the twins and maul them both before being spotted and then managed to run out... The only person who witnessed a fox was the parents.
> ...


what bothers me is that they were in separate cots. So why would a fox attack one and then jump out of that cot into another one and savage the other child? That doesn't add up to me either. The parents couldn't have rushed upstairs at the first sound could they, if the fox had the opportunity to do that!


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## cazcolecarter (Jan 11, 2010)

Meko said:


> i'm with the fishy lot on this one.
> 
> A fox got in to the house, decided to run up the stairs and pick the room with twins in. Then it mauled them both before running out when the mum came in.
> Straight past the bins, kitchen, parents and the four year old but managed to find the twins and maul them both before being spotted and then managed to run out... The only person who witnessed a fox was the parents.
> ...


 Sounded kinda unlikely to me, as well. I doubt children of any age would allow themselves to be 'mauled' without raising hell straight away. And i'm not being funny, unless the parents didn't respond to their cries, a fox wouldn't have time to maul both babies. I mean, they're not exactly bears are they? I wouldn't struggle to fight one off if it was attacking my son.


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## cazcolecarter (Jan 11, 2010)

feorag said:


> what bothers me is that they were in separate cots. So why would a fox attack one and then jump out of that cot into another one and savage the other child? That doesn't add up to me either. The parents couldn't have rushed upstairs at the first sound could they, if the fox had the opportunity to do that!


 You beat me to it. Dodgy as hell, right?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Well I just find it all a bit hard to believe. 

I just think that if a fox bit a child it would hurt like hell and the child would scream, especially given that they were asleep, so the shock of all that would make a 9 month old scream. 

So if it was indeed a fox attack, then I just think the parents didn't investigate straight away. Surely they couldn't have otherwise the fox wouldn't have had the time to go into another cot and attack the other one??

Apart from which, given that children have been stolen out of houses in daylight by total strangers (it's not that long ago that a little girl in the bath was taken out of her home up in the north east), I can't believe the parents had a door wide open at 10:00pm in a different room to the one they were in!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Maybe the parents watch Monk and had seen Mr Monk and His Biggest Fan. It was on a couple of weeks ago.

A dog killed a woman 3 days after it had died; turned out that the womans husband had taken an implant of its teeth, made a copy and attached them to some garden shears. He killed his wife and then 'bit' her with the dogs teeth.


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## cazcolecarter (Jan 11, 2010)

Meko said:


> Maybe the parents watch Monk and had seen Mr Monk and His Biggest Fan. It was on a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> A dog killed a woman 3 days after it had died; turned out that the womans husband had taken an implant of its teeth, made a copy and attached them to some garden shears. He killed his wife and then 'bit' her with the dogs teeth.


 Meko is Colombo


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## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

I honestly do not think it was a fox.
Foxes are very timid animals, they do not like to be around humans so I really do not see one going into a house that to them will stink of humans.
As it was an urban fox I also do not think that it would be starved and thus I have no idea why it would attack a human, I mean we do not have rabies in this country and the only documented fox attacks I have heard of have been by rabid foxes.


Quote:
Occasionally the press reports attacks on children that are said to be by foxes, but very often the bite wounds do not appear to be typical fox bites. It is not impossible that a child could be bitten by a fox but, if it occurs, it is extremely rare. In comparison, the risk of injury from domestic dogs and cats is very much higher. For example, in the USA about 5 million people are bitten by dogs each year and 15 to 20 people die from dog bites yearly. Most of the victims are children. Similarly, there are more than 400,000 cat bites each year in the USA. There are no good statistics from Britain, but it is likely that the number of dog and cat bites is around a fifth of those recorded in the USA. Even in countries where rabies is present, humans are much more likely to be bitten by a rabid domestic dog than by a fox.
The risks of people being attacked by a fox are negligible compared to the risks of being attacked by a domestic dog or cat. 


(Above quote taken from http://www.thefoxwebsite.org/urbanfoxes/urbanconflict.html)

I honestly think it may well be a case of 'Oh no the dogs bitten the kids, say it is a wild animal so the dog is not put down.'. I mean the average person still believes that foxes and wolves are the bad things from the fairy tales and also that they are 'vermin'. To them it does not matter if 1, 2, 20 innocent wild animals are put to sleep.

I think the media are going on about this the wrong way, they are 'sure' it was a fox however the one report where an expert got to talk he did not sound as though he believed it was a fox.

Trapping and killing a random urban fox who may or may not have had anything what so ever to do with this is plain wrong and it upsets me immensely, the whole thing does!
-
Elina
__________________


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Elina said:


> I think the media are going on about this the wrong way, they are 'sure' it was a fox however the one report where an expert got to talk he did not sound as though he believed it was a fox.





not sure where you've got that from. it says

suspected fox attack
The babies were understood to have been 
The toddlers' parents, both 40, told police they had seen two foxes running from the house. 

The papers are saying suspected and understood rather than saying it WAS a fox attack. That's even after the parents said they saw foxes.



Although, strangely the parents saw two foxes running away but then

_Neighbours said Mr Koupparis, who is said to have chased *the* *fox* away, is an accountant and head of finance at independent film and television production company Leopard Films while his wife was a fashion designer_

_*The fox* jumped into their back garden and must have run up the stairs without them noticing,”_

It goes from foxes to fox.


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## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

> not sure where you've got that from. it says
> 
> suspected fox attack
> The babies were understood to have been
> The toddlers' parents, both 40, told police they had seen two foxes running from the house.


 
It depends which channel or paper you are going with as to the angle of it. Quite a few seem to believe it was indeed a fox.

Are humans so primitive that they will not be happy until blood is spilt on the behalf of two people who cannot even keep their story consistant..... Looks that way doesn't it?

I am ashamed to be a human...
-
Elina


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

Elina said:


> It depends which channel or paper you are going with as to the angle of it. Quite a few seem to believe it was indeed a fox.
> 
> Are humans so primitive that they will not be happy until blood is spilt on the behalf of two people who cannot even keep their story consistant..... Looks that way doesn't it?
> 
> ...


I agree with you Elina, I've read several articles and the info is slightly different with every one.

We'll have to see what happens with the babies too, apparently they're still critical.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

a lot my not have even been said by the parents. We all know how the media puts extra words in mouths to make a story. Currently all we have are omeone said something to someone. No actual statement. Which I don't think we will get until the babies are out of Critical condition. 

It is a big house they live in and old houses have thicker walls. I can shout like a demon upstairs in my bedroom, but hubby will not hear me if he is in the livingroom. Dogs are great things as they tell me sounds I do not hear.... Just throwing it out there. This isn't the centre of london, it's a suburb. Places like that tend to be quiet places. In this heat we had, how many left windows open at night while they slept? It's ok to spout that 'oh my god they had a door open while still awake' But thousands of people do just that. I don't because of pets and have a house cat and backdoor leads to chickens and so we don't leave it unattended in case the dogs suddenly decided on chicken tea. But fact is, it is what people do. 
I can't believe people let their kids play out on the roads but they do. I don't, I got a house with a huge safe garden so they don't have to play in the road, not that I would let them, how mean a parent I am.


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## cazcolecarter (Jan 11, 2010)

Pimperella said:


> a lot my not have even been said by the parents. We all know how the media puts extra words in mouths to make a story. Currently all we have are omeone said something to someone. No actual statement. Which I don't think we will get until the babies are out of Critical condition.
> 
> *It is a big house they live in and old houses have thicker walls. I can shout like a demon upstairs in my bedroom, but hubby will not hear me if he is in the livingroom. *Dogs are great things as they tell me sounds I do not hear.... Just throwing it out there. This isn't the centre of london, it's a suburb. Places like that tend to be quiet places. In this heat we had, how many left windows open at night while they slept? It's ok to spout that 'oh my god they had a door open while still awake' But thousands of people do just that. I don't because of pets and have a house cat and backdoor leads to chickens and so we don't leave it unattended in case the dogs suddenly decided on chicken tea. But fact is, it is what people do.
> I can't believe people let their kids play out on the roads but they do. I don't, I got a house with a huge safe garden so they don't have to play in the road, not that I would let them, how mean a parent I am.


Surely if somebody has young children, in a house where sound doesn't carry, they would have the common sense to invest in some baby moniters? They're not expensive or hard to get hold of


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

Pimperella said:


> I can't believe people let their kids play out on the roads but they do. I don't, I got a house with a huge safe garden so they don't have to play in the road, not that I would let them, how mean a parent I am.


But the thing is, if a parent is irresponsible enough to let a child play on the road and the child gets hit by a car, we don't hunt down and smash the first car we can find.

The thing is, you're taking resonsibility for your kidlets, but these people obviously weren't attentive enough. You don't leave your kids unattended and your back door wide open at 10pm.
If it's hot, leave the door open by all means, but at least make sure you _know_ your children are 100% safe.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

I'm a bit cynical it was even a fox. Who's to know the twins wasn't attected by a small dog like a small terrier breed like a jack russel'etc they owned, And they got ride or it was killed in reaction by one of the parents before reporting it and said it was a fox to avoid possible neglect charges. I'm not that convinced that a fox would be that brass, I know they become tamer from feeding in the garden but they also know there escape rought as they never trust 100%, I'm not convinced that they would just walk into active house(Then did it go up stairs into a bed room), A empty maybe if it was empty long enought but a active house hold ?. They still know that humans can be c:censor:ts. They left the door open at nigh ?, Isn't that what windows are for ?. If your watching tv in the liveing room, Why do you open the hall door ?. You'd just open the liveing room window wouldn't you.

*FIRST*


> I went into the room and *I saw some blood* in Isabella's cot – I thought she had a nosebleed," she added.


*THEN*


> *I put on the light*, I saw the fox.


Though it's light longer, It's dark at 10:00pm, So she saw blood in the dark ?.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i'm the same line of thinking as you on it not being a fox Gazz but i leave my patio door open. It's warm and i've two dogs, so it's easier to leave the door open so they can go in and out and i get a nice breeze.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

gazz said:


> I'm a bit cynical it was even a fox. Who's to know the twins wasn't attected by a small dog like a small terrier breed like a jack russel'etc they owned, And they got ride or it was killed in reaction by one of the parents before reporting it and said it was a fox to avoid possible neglect charges.


Great point there! Did anyone see that program last night about the parents who had pitbulls mixes which killed their son? They were upstairs getting high and the child went down to play with the puppies and was mauled to death. They got three years each for neglect.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

cazcolecarter said:


> Surely if somebody has young children, in a house where sound doesn't carry, they would have the common sense to invest in some baby moniters? They're not expensive or hard to get hold of


Precisely. My son lives in an 'average' modern house, yet he used a baby monitor in my granddaugher's bedroom until she was nearly 4 year old.

I'm sitting in my living room and my patio door is open, but my husband is here and my dog. We often leave our back door open, but we have cat proof mesh around the garden and the high gate (with mesh over it) is locked, so it would be extremely difficult for anyone to get in our garden. If we didn't, then the door wouldn't be left open when we weren't in the kitchen and we don't even have children living here!

We have foxes at my work that have been hand reared and are too tame to release, but they are still very wary when approached by staff and they have no reason whatsoever not to trust them. Foxes are inherently distrustful of people and I find it very hard to believe that one would go into a house and up the stairs, putting itself in the position of being trapped.


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## fern (May 25, 2008)

pippainnit said:


> People can be so stupid - one person wrote that all foxes should be killed because they're the only creature in Britain that kills for pleasure.
> 
> Clearly oblivious to the human race, then.



its them people they are being oblivious to.. the human race is the only thing in britain which kills for pleasure.. most kill for food. x


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

sits in the it's-all-a-bit-fishy camp.

so sorry for what happened to these babies but can't believe the 'fox' had enough time to get into 2 cots before the parents went up. i have a 10 month old and i live in an old house with thick walls. and if she cries, i hear her, you can't not hear the scream of a baby in pain.


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

This, from the BBC:

BBC News - How common are fox attacks on humans?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I am also thinking something doesn't sit right with this story. Why would a fox living in a huge city where there are bins galore, takeaway scraps all over the place, rats-a-plenty, handouts from wildlife loving people, etc etc decide to waste energy tackling not just one, but two live animals which would be a good size to prove awkward to overpower???

I agree, it could well be a dog attack & the parents are saying it was a fox to protect themselves & the dog.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

we'll probably find out as soon as the kids are a bit better or (have to be blunt) dead. As soon as they're in a position to have some tests done they'll have the bite marks inspected to see if they match the profile of a foxes teeth.


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## laranicheallaigh (Apr 19, 2008)

Im also a bit cynical about this whole thing. The story changes depending what news channel or website you are on. In fact, the last one i just read (The Sun) said that the fox sat in the corner snarling at the mother for a while,whilst the father tried to get rid of it..Its too inconsistent and too hype,there will be a massive vendetta against foxes now,just like with certain dogs.So annoying.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm not saying this is or isn't true, but it doesn't even have to be the parents lying for it to not be a fox but a dog. 

If you think back to that thread we had a while back about things said about or dogs, if my dog (black German shepherd) is called a wolf, and more so inuits etc and some dogs are called bears, its not beyond belief a small tan/red terrier or collie cross etc etc couldn't be reported as a fox


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## ralphsvivariums (Dec 15, 2009)

I live near to a country farm and about 400 yards from the river crouch foxes have plenty to eat from lambs and other animals on the farm to rubbish left in bins and crap dropped all around the river but the last couple of nights i have been watching a fox that appears down our road drinking out of puddles and being very inquisitive (check spelling on that one) going straight up to peoples front doors and having a good old sniff and nose even after making myself known to the fox it hasn't seemed bothered that me and the mrs are there.
Every animal is different and im sure that if there front doors had been open he would have had no problem with walking straight inside.
I may be leaving my front door open tonight before i go to sleep to see if sly mr fox pops in for a cuppa.


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## snoopyfrench87 (Apr 27, 2009)

ok so fox came in an open door, and went upstairs?? with a 4 year old and two nine month old babies, would you not have stair gates!?!?

it came in an open door, jumped two stair gates to get upstairs? 
all without being noticed? 

I am definitely on the fence with this one.


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

snoopyfrench87 said:


> ok so fox came in an open door, and went upstairs?? with a 4 year old and two nine month old babies, would you not have stair gates!?!?
> 
> it came in an open door, jumped two stair gates to get upstairs?
> all without being noticed?
> ...


Yup. There would've been stairgates, two cots to jump in and out of, navigating the entire house, just to find the babies' room, not to mention the constant risk of being caught. Does this sound like something even the _most_ daring fox would do?


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Was reading today that these foxes are very bold & have no fear of humans & have attacked dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs etc.. There has also been a couple of other incidents in the past in the same road (that were reported) where foxes have gone into homes & been found in childrens bedrooms. Foxes are cunning & very clever & if these have no fear of humans then why wouldn't they come into a home & attack a child? They don't know it's a child, to them it is the chance of finding a meal & the children were unfortunate that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. If the population is so overrun that there are loads living in a small area then food will be at a premium & they will be looking at ways of getting food.

Now if Labour hadn't banned hunting we possibly wouldn't be having this sort of thing on the news :whistling2:. As for the stair gates, a fox could easily squeeze between the bars or jump over it (they can jump 6' fences easily!!!). A stair gate would be no barrier to a fox.


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## Anna_x (Jun 2, 2009)

This is such a sad story, and one that really could have been avoided.
However I'll never agree with fox hunting sorry.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

corny girl said:


> Was reading today that these foxes are very bold & have no fear of humans & have attacked dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs etc.. There has also been a couple of other incidents in the past in the same road (that were reported) where foxes have gone into homes & been found in childrens bedrooms. Foxes are cunning & very clever & if these have no fear of humans then why wouldn't they come into a home & attack a child? They don't know it's a child, to them it is the chance of finding a meal & the children were unfortunate that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. If the population is so overrun that there are loads living in a small area then food will be at a premium & they will be looking at ways of getting food.
> 
> *Now if Labour hadn't banned hunting we possibly wouldn't be having this sort of thing on the news* :whistling2:. As for the stair gates, a fox could easily squeeze between the bars or jump over it (they can jump 6' fences easily!!!). A stair gate would be no barrier to a fox.


Why??? Its the country fox that the toffs like to chase down & have their hounds tear to pieces! Or at least the captive foxes that they have released for them to hunt!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I now have visions of the hunt thundering down the roads in central London:gasp:
Sorry even if the ban on fox hunting hadnt been made it still wouldnt affect the urban fox


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Sorry even if the ban on fox hunting hadnt been made it still wouldnt affect the urban fox


 
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/exotic-mammals/527945-fox-attacks-maules-baby-twin-3.html

:whistling2: (that page, not just that thread)


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Meko said:


> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/exotic-mammals/527945-fox-attacks-maules-baby-twin-3.html
> 
> :whistling2: (that page, not just that thread)


 
Its not my fault they have 2 threads running about the same topic:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## lisafay (Apr 16, 2009)

h aha!!! Bring back fox hunting, save the children!!
Tally ho!!!!


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Pimperella said:


> Not true, we have vast amounts of Farm and Parkland in the UK.


 yes but far as habitat goes farm land is pretty useless isn't it


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Its not my fault they have 2 threads running about the same topic:Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
i just mean your comment was the same as mine but it didn't go down too well when i said it.


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Meko said:


> i just mean your comment was the same as mine but it didn't go down too well when i said it.


 i can't see the similarity there at all meko


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

tomwilson said:


> i can't see the similarity there at all meko


 
weird



Shell195 said:


> Sorry even if the ban on fox hunting hadnt been made it still wouldnt affect the urban fox





Meko said:


> no, you think that* urban foxes* mauling 2 kids in a house in London is relevant to the *tories wanting to bring back fox hunting, in the countryside away from houses*.


 


Meko said:


> but it won't because *urban foxes aren't new. They've not migrated into towns since the hunting ban*.
> 
> One of the online paper reports has a list of other 'similar' incidents that were prior to the ban.


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## tomwilson (Feb 27, 2010)

Meko said:


> weird


 i see it there but i think it maybe has to do with the bits you're not highlighting and a post you didn't quote that makes them seem so dissimilar


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

ah got you.. probably made more sense to me as well because i'd typed it; which is why Shell's post seemed familar.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Meko's good at making people think :lol2:


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## Luxy (Mar 31, 2010)

Check out the latest on this;

Fox Attack On Two Young Twins: Expert John Bryant Says Fox Attracted By Soiled Nappies | UK News | Sky News

According to an expert, a three or four month old fox cub smelled the babies' nappies from outside the house. It then navigated its way past all of the other tasty morsels in the streets, the victims' bins, their kitchen and all the food in it and made it's way all the way up the stairs to eat said soiled nappies.

:roll:

_"He believes it was a cub, about three to four months old, which went into the house after being attracted by the smell of food from the nappies. He said that once the fox realised that the nappies were attached to the youngsters, it panicked and injured the twins."
_ 
Right...

He then goes on to say;
_"Foxes have a grab-and-go philosophy" "In this case I suspect it was a combination of an open door in the house and the fox cub wandering upstairs attracted by the nappy smell."_

If foxes have a grab and go policy, why did this fox pup attack BOTH babies? So it tries to steal the first baby's soiled nappy and realises it's still attached to the child. Does it "grab and go"? No. It mauls the child. Then tries the other nappy. Also attached to a baby. It mauls the second baby. And at some point the mother walks in.

This story gets better with each update.

And finally;
_
He has never known of a fox attacking a human, calling this one a "completely unique event" in his 40-year career. He said it was a "freak incident" which he thought "will never be repeated". 
Mr Bryant said he had heard of two similar cases but they turned out to be incidents involving a German Shepherd dog and a cat._ 

Really? REALLY? So after all of this damning evidence against foxes, you're saying the only other cases you've ever heard of actually turned out to be a cat and a dog?

:roll2:

One little edit - how filthy were the babies' nappies that the smell of them attracted foxes from outside?


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

there's a lot of people suspicious of this story, on another forum i belong to there's a thread very similar to this. even on the t.v this morning there were a couple of people not sure about the whole thing. 

i honestly thought it was a mistake when i first heard it on bbc news. i was expecting to hear an altered story later in the day. i don't know what i expected to hear but i honestly thought someone somewhere along the way must've got their wire crossed as to what happened. just couldn't believe a fox would do this.


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## ashley (Sep 10, 2007)

teshu said:


> there's a lot of people suspicious of this story, on another forum i belong to there's a thread very similar to this. even on the t.v this morning there were a couple of people not sure about the whole thing.
> 
> i honestly thought it was a mistake when i first heard it on bbc news. i was expecting to hear an altered story later in the day. i don't know what i expected to hear but i honestly thought someone somewhere along the way must've got their wire crossed as to what happened. just couldn't believe a fox would do this.


I was on my way to work when I caught part of it in a news update. TBH, I burst out laughing thinking they'd got it all wrong because it sounded ridiculous! Saying that, I thought it was a late April fools when the airport and heliport was shut due to volcanic ash when it was lovely and sunny with not a cloud in the sky:lol2:


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