# Bearded dragon swollen limb... broken or mbd related?



## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Hi all

Right, I'll try and be as concise as possible in as few words as possible lol...

*Beardie:*

My beardie Boba is around 18 months old. I've had her since she was about 8 weeks old so her mbd is obviously my fault but since I've always dusted her food with calcium and Nutrobal along with providing her with the best uv I could get my hands on (Arcadia T5 twin bulb setup), I feel that there's little more I could have done to prevent it. 

Her tail is 'wibbly' (for lack of a better adjective) which I've been told is a sign of mbd but her limbs/spine etc... have always looked fine.

She's always eaten, shed and pooped like a pro so no worries there.

*Feeding:*

She eats a mix of brown crickets, locusts, mealworms, morio worms, wax worms (as a treat), dubia roaches and various salad with her favourite being rocket.

She's also recently eaten a couple of pinkies (don't hate me, I was advised to do so for reasons which will be explained below in 'Recent Events').

*Habitat:*

She has spent the last year of her life in a 4x2x2 Exo Terra wooden viv with the aforementioned twin T5 Arcadia uv bulbs. She has a basking spot set to 105f with a platform and a couple of branches/logs for varying height of basking spot.

Originally she was on lino but in the last month I've transferred her to wood chip as she used to slide around a lot on the lino.

She's had the same uv bulbs for the last 11 months as I was informed that they last up to a year. I shall be ordering replacements tomorrow as it's pay day. The bulbs are situated on the ceiling of the tank which with the logs allows her to position herself anywhere between 18" - 6" away from them. I was also informed that the T5's could be positioned on the ceiling rather than the back wall as the output is a lot stronger so the distance could be increased.

*Recent Events:*

Up until recently Boba has always been considered a 'he' based on information from the net and my local reptile shop. Recently that all changed when 'he' laid 14 infertile eggs over the period of two days. Up until this point (s)he always looked healthy and ate well but after popping the eggs out she looked really emaciated and was off her food for a while (anything she did eat was liberally coated in calcium to account for that which was lost to the creation of the eggs. She also had liquid calcium added to her water bowl).

I bathed her every other day for a week to help keep dehydration at bay and within the week she was back to her normal self except still very thin looking. Her wibbly tail also looked worse which I assumed was due to the weight loss.

A couple of weeks passed and she was starting to fill out again but then she laid another 20 or so eggs over the course of a few days which left her looking even thinner than before. Luckily this time she didn't lose her appetite so I made sure she ate and drank as much as possible with everything being dusted in calcium.

A couple of weeks went by so last week I bought her a pinkie - on the advice of my local reptile shop - to help fatten her up again. She loved it, but up until a few days ago still hadn't really put weight back on (which you might be able to tell from the slightly protruding spine and hips? in the pics below). 

We're now up to the Saturday just gone which is when I noticed something that has caused me serious amounts of worry... 

Not only does her wibbly tail look pretty bad but her rear left leg has swollen with the kneecap looking stupidly big! I've prodded about and it feels like fluid collecting in the joint. Either that or it could be general swelling/inflammation. There's no signs of bug bites or any other open wounds. She doesn't like the leg being touched and even though her appetite is fine and she is still chasing bugs around she doesn't like putting any weight on the leg. 

My local vet had a qualified reptile specialist up until a couple of weeks ago when she left! The nearest qualified vet is in Maidstone which is 30 miles away and I have no transport as family are away on holiday and both friends are working constantly.

I have an appointment booked for tomorrow evening with another vet in my area who has an interest in reptiles but no qualifications which makes me a little wary.

If worst comes to worst I'll have to bribe a co-worker or someone to give me a lift to Maidstone as I think taking her on a train in this weather would do more harm than good. I was just wondering if any of you guys had any thoughts as to what the problem could be just to ease my fears a little?

After much research my amateur opinion is that it's either broken (or similar) through getting caught in a hole in one of her logs or is some sort of reaction to her mbd which has clearly been worsened by the recent egg laying?

Here's some pics (I'll post a pic of her 'wibbly' tail if anyone is interested?): 




























Thank you for taking the time to read my ramblings. 

- Adam


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm getting this sneaking suspicion that people are clicking to view this thread then exiting as soon as they see how wordy it is lol. 

If you could just take 5 minutes to read through as any replies would be appreciated.


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## Bab1084 (Dec 9, 2011)

I read all the way through but i cannot offer any ideas as to what it is the only advice i would suggest is to make the 30mile trip to the vets to get it looked at 

Sorry i couldnt of been more help


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

I live in Maidstone and would be happy to help out with getting her to the vets. If someone would be able to bring you halfway or something i should be able to do the other half of the journey if it saves you the hassle of public transport or going to a vet you're not sure about.


ETA: regarding the knee, is it possible she has had a fall or something?


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Im posting via phone so will try to be concise and please excuse typos.
Obvious thing is that she needs to be seen by a vet. The knee deformity could be trauma, it could be MBD or it could be gout. If the swelling became more apparentt after the pinkie the gout option would sound a little more likely. You increased her calcium during h er.egg laying periods. Did you give extra nutrobal ? Calcium without adequate D3 isnt metabolised effectively. Egg deposition will have hammered her calcium reserves. Insufficient D3 either through under supplimentation and decay of UV output may unfortunately have contributed to an MBD picture. In that case you have been extremely unluck as it sounds, like she has had fantastic care in a fantastic setup.

Ideally she needs.xray and bloods. Ask them to check uric acid levels as.well.as calcium etc. Good luck. Hopefully she will be on the mend soon.c.


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## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

She does, indeed, look rather underweight. The legs do not have a lot of meat on them and the tail is not as chunky as it should be. Maybe the skinny leg is just hilighting a "nobbly knee".

Seriously though, swollen joints could be a number of things; gout, infection, joint inflamation due to injury (recent or when she was young).


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Mal said:


> Did you give extra nutrobal ? Calcium without adequate D3 isnt metabolised effectively.


Does this mean nutrobal should be given as often as calcium as a general rule of husbandry?


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks for the replies guys.

Richwhite: That's a really kind offer thanks! I will most likely go to the appointment tomorrow as planned but if he suggests surgery I'll then make the trip to Maidstone. I'll let you know how it goes if that's ok? 

She's not fallen from any great height in months. The most she's ever fallen from was the arm of the sofa which last happened aaaages ago. I'm thinking she may have got the foot caught in one of the many holes/cracks in her basking log and then either twisted it or lurched and torn/broken something. I'll see what the 'normal' vet says tomorrow and then be in touch.

Thanks


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Thanks for the replies guys.
> 
> Richwhite: That's a really kind offer thanks! I will most likely go to the appointment tomorrow as planned but if he suggests surgery I'll then make the trip to Maidstone. I'll let you know how it goes if that's ok?
> 
> ...


Yep no problem, best to PM me though because sometimes i miss replies in threads. Best of luck tomorrow though, hopefully it's nothing to worry about


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Hi MCEE and Mal

Thank you for the comments. I hadn't thought about gout being a possibility so will definitely mention that at the check up tomorrow. 

I didn't up the dosage of nutrobal when I increased the calcium... I feel like a bad keeper now!

I might just book the Maidstone trip too as even if my local guy has a basic knowledge I doubt he'll be able to check uric acid and calcium levels.

I'll let you all know how it goes. Fingers crossed it's nothing too serious.

Does anyone have experience with dragons suffering from mbd? I know it's not reversible but as long as the damage isn't too extreme will it interfere with their day to day life or lifespan?

- Adam


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Yep no problem, best to PM me though because sometimes i miss replies in threads. Best of luck tomorrow though, hopefully it's nothing to worry about


Ok buddy, will do.

A co-worker lives in Maidstone so maybe I can get him to take me on the way home from work tomorrow. I'll see what he says and let you know.

Thanks again.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Hi MCEE and Mal
> 
> Thank you for the comments. I hadn't thought about gout being a possibility so will definitely mention that at the check up tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Has she got confirmed MDB? I'm struggling to see how she'd get it with your husbandry, although i do have limited knowledge on it


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Not confirmed no but I don't see any other reason for her extremely distorted tail which was perfectly straight as a youngster.

I'll make sure I add a pic of her tail to this thread when I get home tonight.

There's the odd occasion when food doesn't get dusted if I'm in a rush to get to work or something but I'd say 85% of her food has always been dusted with a mixture of 4 parts calcium to 1 part Nutrobal. Obviously I'm regretting not taking the extra couple of minutes to dust it 100% of the time so from now on will be giving her the care she needs but she has by no means been neglected in the past. Not on any conscious level anyway.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Not confirmed no but I don't see any other reason for her extremely distorted tail which was perfectly straight as a youngster.
> 
> I'll make sure I add a pic of her tail to this thread when I get home tonight.
> 
> There's the odd occasion when food doesn't get dusted if I'm in a rush to get to work or something but I'd say 85% of her food has always been dusted with a mixture of 4 parts calcium to 1 part Nutrobal. Obviously I'm regretting not taking the extra couple of minutes to dust it 100% of the time so from now on will be giving her the care she needs but she has by no means been neglected in the past. Not on any conscious level anyway.


Hmm that's got me quite worried now. I don't measure the dusting, i just put a liberal amount in. She has calcium 7 days a week, and nutrobal on the weekends


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Hmm that's got me quite worried now. I don't measure the dusting, i just put a liberal amount in. She has calcium 7 days a week, and nutrobal on the weekends


I'm sure that's fine matey. I always heard that it was best to use calcium mon-fri then Nutrobal on weekends but I thought it might be better to take a similar ratio and apply it to the daily feeding so as to guarantee she gets a decent amount of both every day. Someone will probably reply now and tell me it's totally wrong lol.


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## ChazzieJo (Jun 14, 2012)

The only advice I can offer is that the arcadia UV strips should be replaced every 6months, there's every chance the decrease in UV could be partly to blame?


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

ChazzieJo said:


> The only advice I can offer is that the arcadia UV strips should be replaced every 6months, there's every chance the decrease in UV could be partly to blame?


The T5s are supposed to last a year, with John advising 10-11 months if you give a 12 hour cycle each day


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

I can't remember who it was but a beardie breeder once told me that even the best husbandry will occasionally still leave you with an mbd suffering dragon as they're still too genetically programmed to thrive in real sunlight rather than with uv and supplements.

Lizards are still a very 'new' pet and will still have a lot of their wild ancestors makeup even if captive bred over quite a few generations. I'd have thought that it would take many more years than they have been popular to 'ween' them from thriving under natural light to uv light.

I might be talking shit though.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> The T5s are supposed to last a year, with John advising 10-11 months if you give a 12 hour cycle each day


Yeah John told me 10-12 months I believe. I've always kept her on a 12 hour cycle except for a couple of months in mid summer when I increased it to 14 hours. I'll be ordering new one's this week anyway as it's been about a year.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Yeah John told me 10-12 months I believe. I've always kept her on a 12 hour cycle except for a couple of months in mid summer when I increased it to 14 hours. I'll be ordering new one's this week anyway as it's been about a year.


Yeah i'll be going 10 months on mine. But i really don't like that there's no way of knowing when they've expired


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Tell me about it! I've always found it odd that there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer or way of finding out. They should come with a power tester like Duracell batteries lol.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Tell me about it! I've always found it odd that there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer or way of finding out. They should come with a power tester like Duracell batteries lol.


Yeah, you think there'd be a gadget that can tell what the UV output is


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Yeah, you think there'd be a gadget that can tell what the UV output is


Well you can get uv meters, and I thought they we're very expensive but just done a search and found this on Amazon. Dunno if I'd trust the reading at this price though. There's no pleasing some people lol.

For the price that T5 bulbs cost they should definitely have a definitive lifespan and/or in-built way of testing.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Well you can get uv meters, and I thought they we're very expensive but just done a search and found this on Amazon. Dunno if I'd trust the reading at this price though. There's no pleasing some people lol.
> 
> For the price that T5 bulbs cost they should definitely have a definitive lifespan and/or in-built way of testing.


I wouldn't even trust that to be honest!

This is the first UV bulb i've bought so i can't comment on the price as i don't know if it's good or bad. But it is for sure frustrating - for all i know, the bulb could have some damage that stops it giving out any UV from day one (i don't know if that's possible though?).


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm assuming you're talking about Trinity vets in Maidstone, they're really good and would be well worth the trip/money.

In regards to calcium weekdays and nutrabol weekends, that's more for human convenience than for the animal. There's no point giving them D3 on the weekends and not during the week as the calcium won't be absorbed as efficiently as the week goes on, especially with UVB exposure fizzling out. I'd advise buying Repashy calcium plus, it's an all in one supplement and can be used everyday, then you don't have to keep switching powders.

Hope the vets goes well


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm sure it is possible. As with anything there's always the chance of defects during the manufacturing process. 

Oh well. I've just been paid a day early so off I go to Surrey Pet Supplies to spend over £40 on two lightbulbs lol. Although to be honest I'd spend a lot more than that to make sure Boba is ok. It's just frustrating that I've met people with no idea of husbandry who keep lizards in less than decent conditions and yet never seem to have any problems!


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

vgorst said:


> I'm assuming you're talking about Trinity vets in Maidstone, they're really good and would be well worth the trip/money.
> 
> In regards to calcium weekdays and nutrabol weekends, that's more for human convenience than for the animal. There's no point giving them D3 on the weekends and not during the week as the calcium won't be absorbed as efficiently as the week goes on, especially with UVB exposure fizzling out. I'd advise buying Repashy calcium plus, it's an all in one supplement and can be used everyday, then you don't have to keep switching powders.
> 
> Hope the vets goes well


So when using calcium & nutrobal, what dosages would you give, and how would you adjust it over the animal's life?

And Repashy calcium, how much do you need to give?


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> I'm sure it is possible. As with anything there's always the chance of defects during the manufacturing process.
> 
> Oh well. I've just been paid a day early so off I go to Surrey Pet Supplies to spend over £40 on two lightbulbs lol. Although to be honest I'd spend a lot more than that to make sure Boba is ok. It's just frustrating that I've met people with no idea of husbandry who keep lizards in less than decent conditions and yet never seem to have any problems!


Sod's law that.

My bulb cost £33 in the end. My starter kit from Surrey arrived with a smashed bulb, two days in a row.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

vgorst said:


> I'm assuming you're talking about Trinity vets in Maidstone, they're really good and would be well worth the trip/money.
> 
> In regards to calcium weekdays and nutrabol weekends, that's more for human convenience than for the animal. There's no point giving them D3 on the weekends and not during the week as the calcium won't be absorbed as efficiently as the week goes on, especially with UVB exposure fizzling out. I'd advise buying Repashy calcium plus, it's an all in one supplement and can be used everyday, then you don't have to keep switching powders.
> 
> Hope the vets goes well


Yeah Trinity, that's them! Will definitely be giving them a call this evening then. Thanks! 

I wasn't aware you could get an all-in-one supplement so I'll definitely look into that.

Thanks buddy.


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## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

I order my UV lamps at ten months ready for fitting at eleven months.

As for MBD, I am of the belief your lizard is either prone to it or it is not. I have seen/heard of cases where the husbandry has been awful with little or no UVB and the lizard does not get MBD. However, there are other instances where the husbandry does not get any better and MBD has appeared.

You must remember that, due to the lack of fresh wild bloodlines, the most common pet species like Bearded Dragons have had the living daylights bred out of them and there will be genetic weaknesses in all but the most managed bloodlines. So MBD, along with other diseases and ailments are quite likely to appear in some animals, regardless of husbandry, whereas others will be immune to almost anything.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Sod's law that.
> 
> My bulb cost £33 in the end. My starter kit from Surrey arrived with a smashed bulb, two days in a row.


True, true.

Yeah I had that problem. My local reptile shop only sell the old chunky bulbs though and reckon there's not enough demand for T5's so until they change their minds I need to run the risk of a broken one turning up from SPS. At least they're good about replacing them if it does arrive broken.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

MCEE said:


> I order my UV lamps at ten months ready for fitting at eleven months.
> 
> As for MBD, I am of the belief your lizard is either prone to it or it is not. I have seen/heard of cases where the husbandry has been awful with little or no UVB and the lizard does not get MBD. However, there are other instances where the husbandry does not get any better and MBD has appeared.
> 
> You must remember that, due to the lack of fresh wild bloodlines, the most common pet species like Bearded Dragons have had the living daylights bred out of them and there will be genetic weaknesses in all but the most managed bloodlines. So MBD, along with other diseases and ailments are quite likely to appear in some animals, regardless of husbandry, whereas others will be immune to almost anything.


A very good point. 

I've met a few people now who have bought a beardie for their kids with no idea that they need uv or supplements and yet it's gone on to live a long and relatively healthy life. Gits


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> True, true.
> 
> Yeah I had that problem. My local reptile shop only sell the old chunky bulbs though and reckon there's not enough demand for T5's so until they change their minds I need to run the risk of a broken one turning up from SPS. At least they're good about replacing them if it does arrive broken.


Yeah to their credit they were good about replacing it, but i did have to tell them in no uncertain terms that i needed it sent out that day, because they wanted to send it the following day, meaning i'd be without for two days, on top of the 4 days i had already waited since placing the order (weekend). Then that arrived broken, and i thought well this could go on indefinitely and in the meantime the animal has no UV. So i had to travel about 11 miles through treacherous country lanes to find the T5. I'll have to do that each time now, because i told Surrey i won't be ordering from them again. They're good at replacing them, but i ordered 2 things from them and both were messed up in different ways. I may try them again in 9 months, as everyone else has a good experience with them and a broken bulb won't be such an issue if i'm getting it in advance, but i'm wary now


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

richwhite said:


> So when using calcium & nutrobal, what dosages would you give, and how would you adjust it over the animal's life?
> 
> And Repashy calcium, how much do you need to give?



For beardies I would dust all veg with calci-dust daily and nutrabol for livefood. Even as adults beardies should be fed livefood at least a couple of times a week (although I would give them small amounts of bugs every 2-3 days), these feeding should be spread out throughout the week so they also get nutrobal spread out (if that makes sense). Dosage wise it is virtually impossible to overdose on the supplements, so I would use enough powder to coat the item. The problem with supplementation is no one really knows how much, how often etc.

Repashy calcium + I provide with every meal, it's designed to be used everday as a source of calcium, D3 and multivits. The good thing about repashy over nutrabol is that repashy is always looking at improving their formulas with actual lab work and research. Nutrabol hasn't really changed since it was first produced and was produced without the knowledge/research done today.

I also believe (as someone already mentioned) that some animals are genetically predisposed to getting MBD. I have 2 AFT's, both from the same breeder (but different parents), raised in the same way and cared for in the same way since I had them. One got slight MBD while the other has never had such a problem.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

vgorst said:


> For beardies I would dust all veg with calci-dust daily and nutrabol for livefood. Even as adults beardies should be fed livefood at least a couple of times a week (although I would give them small amounts of bugs every 2-3 days), these feeding should be spread out throughout the week so they also get nutrobal spread out (if that makes sense). Dosage wise it is virtually impossible to overdose on the supplements, so I would use enough powder to coat the item. The problem with supplementation is no one really knows how much, how often etc.
> 
> Repashy calcium + I provide with every meal, it's designed to be used everday as a source of calcium, D3 and multivits. The good thing about repashy over nutrabol is that repashy is always looking at improving their formulas with actual lab work and research. Nutrabol hasn't really changed since it was first produced and was produced without the knowledge/research done today.
> 
> I also believe (as someone already mentioned) that some animals are genetically predisposed to getting MBD. I have 2 AFT's, both from the same breeder (but different parents), raised in the same way and cared for in the same way since I had them. One got slight MBD while the other has never had such a problem.


Mine is only 4 months old so is having live food daily, and only eats veg occasionally. So i put the food into a feeder, add the powder, then shake it. But because i add nutrobal on the weekends, there's probably some within the feeder in the week anyway. Should i be increasing the amount of nutrabol i'm giving?

Where do i get repashy, and how much does it cost?


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Mine is only 4 months old so is having live food daily, and only eats veg occasionally. So i put the food into a feeder, add the powder, then shake it. But because i add nutrobal on the weekends, there's probably some within the feeder in the week anyway. Should i be increasing the amount of nutrabol i'm giving?
> 
> Where do i get repashy, and how much does it cost?


I should think that amount is fine.

Here's a link to Repashy Calcium Plus (link). I think that's the right one?


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> I should think that amount is fine.
> 
> Here's a link to Repashy Dragon Calcium Plus (link). I think that's the right one?


Wow,that's cheap!


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

My first question would be..has she actually been tested and diagnosed with MBD or are you just assuming it is by the tail? 

By the sounds of your lighting and supliments I'd be a bit suprised if it was that, MBD is not something that happens overnight and it could take months of bad lighting to cause a problem. Remember that beardies brumate for 3 month or so, generally underground / caves and they don't get MBD from being out of the sun for that period of time. 

When you say her tail is 'wibbly'...elaborate. Is it bent or just floppy? pics

She is very thin and does need a vet check. I would say possibly a hormonal imbalance (hence the quick egg turnaround) and possibly a parasite infestation that is causing it.

double check and triple check her temperatures. That can be the root of a lot of problems.


Knee is either a knock or possibly gout. Cut any acidic foods out her diet as that can aggravate gout in humans, not sure on lizzies though.


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

richwhite said:


> Mine is only 4 months old so is having live food daily, and only eats veg occasionally. So i put the food into a feeder, add the powder, then shake it. But because i add nutrobal on the weekends, there's probably some within the feeder in the week anyway. Should i be increasing the amount of nutrabol i'm giving?
> 
> Where do i get repashy, and how much does it cost?


A beardies main source of D3 should really be from UVB as a dietary supplement of it is not nearly as effective. If you ensure UVB lighting is not fizzling out then the amount of nutrabol you use shouldn't matter as much (although obviously it's not easy to tell when UVB is running out).

Everyone has their own supplement regime so if what you're doing is working for you then why change it? Some people mix calcium and nutrabol and dust everyday, some people use nutrabol every other day and some people don't use calcium at all (nutrabol was designed to be used everyday without calcium). I'm not sure if there would be some nutrabol in the feeder as each feeder has a different metabolism i.e. some may excrete D3 in a matter of hours.

You can get repashy from Lilly Exotics website with free delivery. It depends on the amount you get as to the price but price-wise it's not much different from nutrabol and much better IMO :2thumb:


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

messymedia said:


> Hi MCEE and Mal
> 
> Thank you for the comments. I hadn't thought about gout being a possibility so will definitely mention that at the check up tomorrow.
> 
> ...



Remember that Nutrobol is a vitamin that CAN be overdosed on, although its hard to do it.


We give lizzies suppliments as they are under artificial lighting and not in natural sunshine. This is to mitigate any shortcomings on the lighting. Your on T5 lighting so the risk of lizzie having any deficiencies is minimal at best.

The lighting we use nowadays is a hell of a lot better than what it used to be when the idea of suppliments was first used. They were used mainly as there was NO UV lighting available years ago. A few days or even a week or so with no suppliments will not cause problems, they are there as a backup not as an 'absolute have to have daily or lizzy will die'

missing a few days does not make you a bad keeper, it makes you human, and would not have done the least harm at all. They are a backup to ensure no deficiencies, not a must have or they will get deficiencies. 

Again, they rarely eat during brumation, you don't wake them up daily to shove food and suppliments down their throats do you....its not medication, its a preventative choice on our part.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

nicnet said:


> My first question would be..has she actually been tested and diagnosed with MBD or are you just assuming it is by the tail?
> 
> By the sounds of your lighting and supliments I'd be a bit suprised if it was that, MBD is not something that happens overnight and it could take months of bad lighting to cause a problem. Remember that beardies brumate for 3 month or so, generally underground / caves and they don't get MBD from being out of the sun for that period of time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information nicnet. Can you elaborate on acidic foods? I stated everything she eats in the original post. 

Her tail is bent in more than one place. I'll upload pics within the next hour or so as I'm at work at the moment. 

I check her temperatures every day and even use a secondary thermometer every week or so to make sure the static one's are working correctly.

Shall I just cancel the local 'enthusiast' vet check up and go to Trinity in Maidstone? I'm sure my co-worker who lives over there will be ok taking me. Might have to come back on the train. I'd better dig out Boba's mini hot water bottle to keep her warm if I do come back on train though.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

vgorst said:


> A beardies main source of D3 should really be from UVB as a dietary supplement of it is not nearly as effective. If you ensure UVB lighting is not fizzling out then the amount of nutrabol you use shouldn't matter as much (although obviously it's not easy to tell when UVB is running out).
> 
> Everyone has their own supplement regime so if what you're doing is working for you then why change it? Some people mix calcium and nutrabol and dust everyday, some people use nutrabol every other day and some people don't use calcium at all (nutrabol was designed to be used everyday without calcium). I'm not sure if there would be some nutrabol in the feeder as each feeder has a different metabolism i.e. some may excrete D3 in a matter of hours.
> 
> You can get repashy from Lilly Exotics website with free delivery. It depends on the amount you get as to the price but price-wise it's not much different from nutrabol and much better IMO :2thumb:


sorry by feeder I meant a pot in which I put the food and dust.

Can repashy be used every day throughout their lives?


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

richwhite said:


> sorry by feeder I meant a pot in which I put the food and dust.
> 
> Can repashy be used every day throughout their lives?


Oops I read that wrong 

Yeah Repashy is designed to be used everyday for all life stages


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

messymedia said:


> Thanks for the information nicnet. Can you elaborate on acidic foods? I stated everything she eats in the original post.
> 
> Her tail is bent in more than one place. I'll upload pics within the next hour or so as I'm at work at the moment.
> 
> ...



Acidic foods are things like tomato. Check online for acid foods and gout. Will give you an idea. Possibly not gout though so wait till after the vet check

I'd say she needs a specialist vet and a 'fluffy bunny' vet will do her no good at all. She needs fecals done and checking for MBD (insist on the tests and get the results, some vets will treat anyway just to make you pay for it)

I would suggest getting her hormones checking also.

Get all the results on paper, not just them telling you what it is. You want numbers and a full copy of the test results. I'd suggest emailing them to Woodrott and asking his opinion on the results.


Food wise, she needs lots of food down her by the looks of it. I'd get roaches, silkworms, pheonix (calci) worms, pachnoda grubs...let her eat as much as he likes at the moment and try get her some weight on.

You are definatly going to want to avoid her brumating this year, she doesn't have any healthy weight on her to offset any weight loss during brumation. You're going to have to night heat her viv for a bit to avoid it. Ceramic heater would be ideal but a heat mat would work also. Keep her night temp at around 18C and that should stop her brumating. A heater in the room she is in would do the same also.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Shall I just cancel the local 'enthusiast' vet check up and go to Trinity in Maidstone? I'm sure my co-worker who lives over there will be ok taking me. Might have to come back on the train. I'd better dig out Boba's mini hot water bottle to keep her warm if I do come back on train though.


Personally, and this may be just me, i would cancel the enthusiast vet. If you're not 100% that they know what they're doing (and as nicnet said, you need specialist tests), you'll be wasting your money as you'll need to go to Trinity anyway.

As for the train, i think it's quite a trek from the station to the vet, which isn't ideal for the dragon especially with this weather. If you can get to Maidstone and are happy getting the train back i don't mind giving you a lift from vet to station, or my earlier offer still stands of taking you a certain way back if someone else can meet us along the way


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

The practice is less than a mile from barming station. I would get this beardie seen ASAP.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

nicnet said:


> Acidic foods are things like tomato. Check online for acid foods and gout. Will give you an idea. Possibly not gout though so wait till after the vet check
> 
> I'd say she needs a specialist vet and a 'fluffy bunny' vet will do her no good at all. She needs fecals done and checking for MBD (insist on the tests and get the results, some vets will treat anyway just to make you pay for it)
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the information Nicnet. Legend.

I've cancelled the fluffy bunny vet lol and booked her in at Trinity for tomorrow evening. My co-worker who lives in Maidstone was on his way out the office this morning as I was getting in as he's ill!!! I can never catch a break  But another coworker who used to keep geckos has offered to run me over there and back as he lives near me. 

I'll order some silkworms, pheonix worms & pachnoda grubs on my lunch break so will hopefully have those to give to her within the next couple of days. Her appetite isn't 100% at the moment but I've found that if I keep switching between different foods in the same session she tends to eat.

Brilliant advice about brumation also. I have a couple of spare heat mats from my leo so I'll sort out a matstat and get it in there asap. 

Thanks buddy


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Personally, and this may be just me, i would cancel the enthusiast vet. If you're not 100% that they know what they're doing (and as nicnet said, you need specialist tests), you'll be wasting your money as you'll need to go to Trinity anyway.
> 
> As for the train, i think it's quite a trek from the station to the vet, which isn't ideal for the dragon especially with this weather. If you can get to Maidstone and are happy getting the train back i don't mind giving you a lift from vet to station, or my earlier offer still stands of taking you a certain way back if someone else can meet us along the way


Thank you for the offer buddy. 

Another co-worker has offered to take me there and back which is cool (we don't really get along but I can suck it up for Boba, especially as he has been kind and offered).

Apologies for not getting the tail pics online last night. I had a pretty hectic evening so will sort them today.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Thank you for the offer buddy.
> 
> Another co-worker has offered to take me there and back which is cool (we don't really get along but I can suck it up for Boba, especially as he has been kind and offered).


: victory:
Sorted then! If you have any issues though just give me a shout


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## Fionab (Mar 28, 2010)

i think you have done everything possible. it looks like fluid but definately needs xrays.,...... dragons can be born with MBD, one of mine had bone scans which showed traces of MBD althogh he didint, and the vet told me they can of course be born with it and have it through no fault of their current husbandry.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Goodness, what a story.

From the picture I'm included to think that it is not MBD, but you will need am Xray from a vet that knows what they are talking about. Rob Reynolds in west Sussex is our preferred vet.

T5 is without doubt the most powerful and effective source of light and UV in the world. By using T5 and it's reflector, set up as directed on our website the chances of developing MBD is so small!

Yes a huge problem with reptiles is the the lack of wild blood! As you know I am always concerned about breeding and inbreeding over time to perpetuate morphs and size changes. We do see more bone and brain issues than ever before.

Also baby agamids are designed to have huge natural sunlight exposure when first hatched. This is a very important stage in their life and can set up many biological issues for later life. 

I'm afraid that babies that have not had access to the right Uv index are more likely to show up with issues like MBD in later life.

We all wish you well here and hope that it is just a wrench or fluid build up.

Sometimes dragons get a nail caught in a log or rock and it wrenches the joint when they move off??? Just a thought.

Please also keep in mind that overdosing synthetic supplements can be lethal! We MUST all find out a way of measuring how much is required per gram of body weight and how often. Just remember D3 that is over supplied in the diet will build up in the animals body which can lead to hypervitaminosis D. 

D3 derived from UVB is simply passed through the body in excreta. Well that's the most likely theory, 

John


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Goodness, what a story.
> 
> From the picture I'm included to think that it is not MBD, but you will need am Xray from a vet that knows what they are talking about. Rob Reynolds in west Sussex is our preferred vet.
> 
> ...


Glad you turned up here John, i use one T5 for my beardie, is it best/necessary to use 2?


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Using a T5 is by far the best thing that can be done! 

They push UV and light further than any other lamp into the enclosure. What you need to do is adjust the height of the basking platforms in the enslosure so that the animal can self regulate as it requires. 8-12" is the closest that an animal should get to a D3+ lamp ideally as that id the lamp is still in date would be re-creating the upper reaches of a wild index.

So do you need x2 lamps?

By adding in another lamp we do not increase the amount or penetration of UVB! You just increase the area to which this emission is provided. So if you have a long or wide viv a pair of lamps can be used to great effect. 

It certainly wouldn't hurt to have two lamps in smaller vivs but really one dies a great job.

So if a viv is over 30" front to back or over four foot long then x2 lamps are very useful. Under this size then it is not "needed" as long as the photogradient is set properly.

John




richwhite said:


> Glad you turned up here John, i use one T5 for my beardie, is it best/necessary to use 2?


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Using a T5 is by far the best thing that can be done!
> 
> They push UV and light further than any other lamp into the enclosure. What you need to do is adjust the height of the basking platforms in the enslosure so that the animal can self regulate as it requires. 8-12" is the closest that an animal should get to a D3+ lamp ideally as that id the lamp is still in date would be re-creating the upper reaches of a wild index.
> 
> ...


I'm still new to using UV. My viv is 4 feet long, 2 feet high, 2 feet deep, and i have it above the doors. Is that alright? The basking spot is halfway in the depth, and goes about 14 inches high.

(Hope this isn't off topic, thought it'd be useful for anyone wondering about MBD and UV setups)


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Goodness, what a story.
> 
> From the picture I'm included to think that it is not MBD, but you will need am Xray from a vet that knows what they are talking about. Rob Reynolds in west Sussex is our preferred vet.
> 
> ...


Thanks John

My first thought was that it was just a wrenched joint or similar. Hopefully that's all it is. 

For anyone that is interested... I went with one long 46" T5 D3+ (and reflector) on the ceiling along the back of the viv and a smaller 22" bulb (with reflector) on the ceiling at the front of the viv up one end (above basking area).


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

Most likely this dragon has osteomyelitis of that limb, an xray is required. If this is confirmed, the limb will likley need amputation as a salvage procedure as these infections can spread via the blood to other bones. if this has already happend, the prognosis is poor.
Nb this beardie is thin, the pelvic bones are clearly visible, this may mean that the kidneys are in trouble, this would lead to a rise in serum uric acid levels causing gout, the other most likley differential in this case. Therefore bloods would be a good idea. 
Please get this beardie seen as soon as you can


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

arvey said:


> Most likely this dragon has osteomyelitis of that limb, an xray is required. If this is confirmed, the limb will likley need amputation as a salvage procedure as these infections can spread via the blood to other bones. if this has already happend, the prognosis is poor.
> Nb this beardie is thin, the pelvic bones are clearly visible, this may mean that the kidneys are in trouble, this would lead to a rise in serum uric acid levels causing gout, the other most likley differential in this case. Therefore bloods would be a good idea.
> Please get this beardie seen as soon as you can


Wow... shit! Utterly terrified now.

She's going to Trinity in Maidstone tomorrow evening.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

arvey said:


> Most likely this dragon has osteomyelitis of that limb, an xray is required. If this is confirmed, the limb will likley need amputation as a salvage procedure as these infections can spread via the blood to other bones. if this has already happend, the prognosis is poor.
> Nb this beardie is thin, the pelvic bones are clearly visible, this may mean that the kidneys are in trouble, this would lead to a rise in serum uric acid levels causing gout, the other most likley differential in this case. Therefore bloods would be a good idea.
> Please get this beardie seen as soon as you can



Bit of a huge leap of faith there don't you think? Could just as well be a simple twisted knee and parasites....


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

No it's not that I guarantee it


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

arvey said:


> No it's not that I guarantee it


You may be right, but you cannot guarantee it, don't be so ridiculous. All you've done is worried an owner who can't get any answer until tomorrow. Hardly helpful is it? Maybe join the Samaritans and learn some compassion. You have no way of knowing for sure from pictures


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

I would re read the post, I have guaranteed what it is NOT, ie a strain and parasites and looking at that picture I stand by what I said. What I hope I have done is encourage this guy to seek veterinary attention for his dragon, not scare him. That said if scaring is what is needed to get this dragon to a vet, I do not consider those actions to be ridiculous at all. :lol2:


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

arvey said:


> No it's not that I guarantee it


Are you a vet? .... Well done for probably unnecessary scaring the op.

Seriously OP don't think the worse.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

arvey said:


> I would re read the post, I have guaranteed what it is NOT, ie a strain and parasites and looking at that picture I stand by what I said. What I hope I have done is encourage this gut to seek veterinary attention for his dragon, not scare him. That said if scaring is what is needed to get this dragon to a vet, I do not consider those actions to be ridiculous at all. :lol2:


Have you read their posts?! The dragon is off to a specialist tomorrow...!


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

Thats good then, I wouldnt want them to reconsider based on someones idea that it may just be a strain as it clearly is not.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

arvey said:


> I would re read the post, I have guaranteed what it is NOT, ie a strain and parasites and looking at that picture I stand by what I said. What I hope I have done is encourage this guy to seek veterinary attention for his dragon, not scare him. That said if scaring is what is needed to get this dragon to a vet, I do not consider those actions to be ridiculous at all. :lol2:


Read the thread, the OP is very worried already and has jumped through hoops to get an appointment with a specialist vet.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Maybe take a look at arvey's profile page. He knows what he is talking about.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Maybe he should have said he was a reptile vet to start with. Hope it's not as bad as that though.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Stephen P said:


> Maybe take a look at arvey's profile page. He knows what he is talking about.


Not really the point though is it? If he'd read even the first page he would have seen that the OP is distressed, and has a vet booked. To come on here and deliberately scare someone to get an appointment is outrageous unless they refuse to get it seen by a vet. And, for someone who is so concerned about the animal being seen by a vet, it's ironic to post a message that could make someone think "oh, a vet saw it online, the animal is basically screwed" and then NOT take it to the vet.

It really doesn't matter he's a vet. It was a bloody stupid post that has done nothing but put undue worry and stress on the OP, who, by all accounts here, is a good keeper and is doing the best by his pet.


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

I dont think it was a "Bloody stupid post" at all, I think it was a post to give the OP the impression that a lesion like that needs to be seen by a vet, and also, in the wider picture to give others the impression that a lesion like that isnt going to get better by itself and requires veterinary attention. I know he has an appointment, perhaps what I have said will give a heads up as to what is to be expected when he gets the animal seen. It would be easy to give a "there there" approach but with respect that is not what the beardie needs. I hope the OP will have it reenforced that Xrays and Bloods may be required from my post. I didnt say I was a vet because I didnt want to sound pompous but give a realistic opinion on what was wrong with his beardie. Im sorry if that offends some people but I think the OP deserves an experienced opinion which is why Im happy to give it free of charge.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

arvey said:


> I dont think it was a "Bloody stupid post" at all, I think it was a post to give the OP the impression that a lesion like that needs to be seen by a vet, and also, in the wider picture to give others the impression that a lesion like that isnt going to get better by itself and requires veterinary attention. I know he has an appointment, perhaps what I have said will give a heads up as to what is to be expected when he gets the animal seen. It would be easy to give a "there there" approach but with respect that is not what the beardie needs. I hope the OP will have it reenforced that Xrays and Bloods may be required from my post. I didnt say I was a vet because I didnt want to sound pompous but give a realistic opinion on what was wrong with his beardie. Im sorry if that offends some people but I think the OP deserves an experienced opinion which is why Im happy to give it free of charge.


Oh come on. Get off your high horse for a moment and you'll see a few things.
1) No one said it will get better by itself. Everyone said get to a vet, and an experienced reptile vet. That is why the OP cancelled an appointment at a regular vet to travel 30 miles to a reptile vet.
2) The OP is extremely worried. 
3) It has already been advised a few times to get X-rays and blood work done
4) No one has said 'there there', the universal advice has been "vet, now" and dietary advice on it being thin after laying eggs.

Basically, everything you advised has been advised by everyone else already. Except you came charging in and said it's going to need amputation or worse, and made the OP stress out with nothing he can do to speed up the appointment. So yeah, it was bloody stupid.


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

Im sorry, I disagree. I don't see a problem with a reptile vet giving an honest opinion of what the problem is. There is no high horse about it, just honesty. OK its not what the OP wants to hear, but what is this forum if not to give people with concerns an idea about what is going on. You yourself gave the opinion that it may have suffered an injury from a fall which is your opinion and in my opinion not what has caused the problem here. It has never been my intention to cause undue distress but equally I refuse not to give a truthful opinion. I hope the beardie is fine and does well and I maintain that having a heads up and to be prepared for what treatments may be offered is only fair.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

I can see both points of view and in all honesty I would want to know what a reptile vet had to say regardless of how serious, it's only going to be said tomorrow anyway. I also think that you (the vet) could have said it slightly better. But most importantly arguing is going to get us nowhere. OP, hope all goes well tomorrow. Keep us informed! : victory:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

arvey said:


> Im sorry, I disagree. I don't see a problem with a reptile vet giving an honest opinion of what the problem is. There is no high horse about it, just honesty. OK its not what the OP wants to hear, but what is this forum if not to give people with concerns an idea about what is going on. You yourself gave the opinion that it may have suffered an injury from a fall which is your opinion and in my opinion not what has caused the problem here. It has never been my intention to cause undue distress but equally I refuse not to give a truthful opinion. I hope the beardie is fine and does well and I maintain that having a heads up and to be prepared for what treatments may be offered is only fair.


Granted, and i accept all of that. But did you _really_ have to say that the animal is going to need an amputation or, if it's too late, have a poor prognosis? Is it really so difficult to just say 'go to a vet and get x-rays and blood work done'? You say it wasn't your intention to cause undue stress, but what exactly did you think it was going to do? Imagine yourself as not a vet for a minute, you have an animal that you're worried about, and someone wades in with the subtlety of a brick in the head and says what you did. Not nice is it? 

I fully agree that "having a heads up and to be prepared for what treatments may be offered is only fair" but i would argue that's not entirely what you did. That would be to say "I'm a reptile vet, and looking at those pictures, it seems likely that it's .... and there's a possibility it will need amputations, but the vet will get a more definitive view in person. Make sure you get x-rays and blood work done for conclusive answers though." 
Pretty simple right? Now compare that to your first post here, and you'll see quite a stark difference. 

Anyway tomcannon is right, arguing isn't going to get us anywhere. The OP has a rep vet appointment tomorrow, and will hopefully get a conclusive answer on what the problem is. All i was trying to say is employ a bit (LOT) more tact in your posts, and take the time to read a thread to see what has been said and what the OP is intending to do.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Ive been lucky enough to work with some of the best clinicians in the country. Many of these guys were somewhat lacking in bed side manner but it was easy to brush that to one side and focus on their excellence in saving lives. Often when these guys were made to realise their interactions with patients were less than tactful they were genuinely horrified. Sometimes they become so focussed on the clinical picture and the challenge of saving lives its easy for them to miss the niceties. Im not excusing or justifying such behaviour but the results they achieve make it easy to forgivr. I suspect similar has happened here. A specialist has looked at quite a convincing clinical picture, quite a detailed history and given an expert opinion. Yes it was rather blunt, yes it is distressing but realistic. The OP is a very dedicated caring keeper who clearly will go to any lengths to save her animal. However how often do we see people on here trying to avoid the cost and inconvenience of getting their animal the consultation and treatment their animal needs. How many times are vets confronted with owners who are unwilling to commit to needed diagnostic work or treatment. Often blunt is the only way of getting things done. I think in this case, the focus was clearly on the animal and the input a genuine attempt to offer help. Vets dont offer input on here very often. It can create a bit of a minefield especially if the animal is under or scheduled to se another vet. I think we should be grateful to any specialist providing free input and maybe a little forgiving.

Its interesting that he also appears to dismiss the MBD theory and lends a degree of support to the gout suggestion. It may be coincidental but I seem to recall several cases of gout in reptiles recently. Another beardie was diagnosed with it last week. Is this something as keepers, that we should be looking in to ? I was surprised to see osteomyelitis mentioned and would be interested in the indicators for suggesting this. I have cared for human patients with this condition and it is far from simple to treat. Surgical intervention to the extent mentioned isnt as drastic as sounds. Hlpefully though it isnt the cause of the drgons problems. 
To the OP, please try not to worry unduly. Your getting your dgon the help it needs. No matter what the problem is, I have the distinct impression you have the dedication of care to get her through it. Good luck and please let us know how you get on.
Sorry for the long post and the numerous typos. Posting via phone and my thumb typing sucks.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Mal said:


> Ive been lucky enough to work with some of the best clinicians in the country. Many of these guys were somewhat lacking in bed side manner but it was easy to brush that to one side and focus on their excellence in saving lives. Often when these guys were made to realise their interactions with patients were less than tactful they were genuinely horrified. Sometimes they become so focussed on the clinical picture and the challenge of saving lives its easy for them to miss the niceties. Im not excusing or justifying such behaviour but the results they achieve make it easy to forgivr. I suspect similar has happened here. A specialist has looked at quite a convincing clinical picture, quite a detailed history and given an expert opinion. Yes it was rather blunt, yes it is distressing but realistic. The OP is a very dedicated caring keeper who clearly will go to any lengths to save her animal. However how often do we see people on here trying to avoid the cost and inconvenience of getting their animal the consultation and treatment their animal needs. How many times are vets confronted with owners who are unwilling to commit to needed diagnostic work or treatment. Often blunt is the only way of getting things done. I think in this case, the focus was clearly on the animal and the input a genuine attempt to offer help. Vets dont offer input on here very often. It can create a bit of a minefield especially if the animal is under or scheduled to se another vet. I think we should be grateful to any specialist providing free input and maybe a little forgiving.
> 
> Its interesting that he also appears to dismiss the MBD theory and lends a degree of support to the gout suggestion. It may be coincidental but I seem to recall several cases of gout in reptiles recently. Another beardie was diagnosed with it last week. Is this something as keepers, that we should be looking in to ? I was surprised to see osteomyelitis mentioned and would be interested in the indicators for suggesting this. I have cared for human patients with this condition and it is far from simple to treat. Surgical intervention to the extent mentioned isnt as drastic as sounds. Hlpefully though it isnt the cause of the drgons problems.
> To the OP, please try not to worry unduly. Your getting your dgon the help it needs. No matter what the problem is, I have the distinct impression you have the dedication of care to get her through it. Good luck and please let us know how you get on.
> Sorry for the long post and the numerous typos. Posting via phone and my thumb typing sucks.


I'm sure you're right, and i wasn't trying to suggest Avery's posts were deliberately trying to cause distress, i know that wasn't the case. I'm grateful to have a vet on the forum too, there's plenty of info i'd like to ask a specialist


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

arvey said:


> I would re read the post, I have guaranteed what it is NOT, ie a strain and parasites and looking at that picture I stand by what I said. What I hope I have done is encourage this guy to seek veterinary attention for his dragon, not scare him. That said if scaring is what is needed to get this dragon to a vet, I do not consider those actions to be ridiculous at all. :lol2:


I really didn't need scaring though to be honest mate. Especially as I've had an appointment booked since the weekend. I'm not a complete pleb.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

arvey said:


> I dont think it was a "Bloody stupid post" at all, I think it was a post to give the OP the impression that a lesion like that needs to be seen by a vet, and also, in the wider picture to give others the impression that a lesion like that isnt going to get better by itself and requires veterinary attention. I know he has an appointment, perhaps what I have said will give a heads up as to what is to be expected when he gets the animal seen. It would be easy to give a "there there" approach but with respect that is not what the beardie needs. I hope the OP will have it reenforced that Xrays and Bloods may be required from my post. I didnt say I was a vet because I didnt want to sound pompous but give a realistic opinion on what was wrong with his beardie. Im sorry if that offends some people but I think the OP deserves an experienced opinion which is why Im happy to give it free of charge.


I appreciate the sentiment, really I do, but you could have stated that you were a vet in your first comment. Also it seems that you've not read the entire thread as there's quite a few mentions of a vet appointment being booked ever since I noticed the limb problem. Someone else already suggested fecal, xray and bloods back at the start which I will be asking for. Thank you for your 'free of charge' opinion.

I also understand that some keepers would rather wait and see if the problem goes on it's own (too many keepers if truth be told) but I'm certainly not one of them! I started a vet fund when I first got Boba to cover things like this and am willing to pay whatever it takes to sort her out. You weren't aware of this but I do feel a little like people judge those with sick animals as being shit at looking after them without asking first.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Mal said:


> Ive been lucky enough to work with some of the best clinicians in the country. Many of these guys were somewhat lacking in bed side manner but it was easy to brush that to one side and focus on their excellence in saving lives. Often when these guys were made to realise their interactions with patients were less than tactful they were genuinely horrified. Sometimes they become so focussed on the clinical picture and the challenge of saving lives its easy for them to miss the niceties. Im not excusing or justifying such behaviour but the results they achieve make it easy to forgivr. I suspect similar has happened here. A specialist has looked at quite a convincing clinical picture, quite a detailed history and given an expert opinion. Yes it was rather blunt, yes it is distressing but realistic. The OP is a very dedicated caring keeper who clearly will go to any lengths to save her animal. However how often do we see people on here trying to avoid the cost and inconvenience of getting their animal the consultation and treatment their animal needs. How many times are vets confronted with owners who are unwilling to commit to needed diagnostic work or treatment. Often blunt is the only way of getting things done. I think in this case, the focus was clearly on the animal and the input a genuine attempt to offer help. Vets dont offer input on here very often. It can create a bit of a minefield especially if the animal is under or scheduled to se another vet. I think we should be grateful to any specialist providing free input and maybe a little forgiving.
> 
> Its interesting that he also appears to dismiss the MBD theory and lends a degree of support to the gout suggestion. It may be coincidental but I seem to recall several cases of gout in reptiles recently. Another beardie was diagnosed with it last week. Is this something as keepers, that we should be looking in to ? I was surprised to see osteomyelitis mentioned and would be interested in the indicators for suggesting this. I have cared for human patients with this condition and it is far from simple to treat. Surgical intervention to the extent mentioned isnt as drastic as sounds. Hlpefully though it isnt the cause of the drgons problems.
> To the OP, please try not to worry unduly. Your getting your dgon the help it needs. No matter what the problem is, I have the distinct impression you have the dedication of care to get her through it. Good luck and please let us know how you get on.
> Sorry for the long post and the numerous typos. Posting via phone and my thumb typing sucks.


'His' animal, lol.

I'm totally grateful for the advice. And I'm sorry If I've come of snappy this morning but I'm sure you can all appreciate how worried I am about Boba, which has left me in a fairly shit mood. I don't think at a time like this I should have to take someone's bedside manner into consideration, especially when I wasn't even aware they were a vet. I've been utterly shocked at the bedside manner of doctor's and some vets over the years and I get that they become numb to it as it's their job but I shouldn't have to suffer because of their empathy problems.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

messymedia said:


> 'His' animal, lol.


My apologies, think I had your id mixed up with someone elses.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

messymedia said:


> I really didn't need scaring though to be honest mate. Especially as I've had an appointment booked since the weekend. I'm not a complete pleb.


I hope all goes well at the vets - do you know which vet at Trinity you are seeing?


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Stephen P said:


> I hope all goes well at the vets - do you know which vet at Trinity you are seeing?


Thanks buddy. I believe I'm seeing Richard. I looked on their site and even though it doesn't state reptiles as a speciality of his, he still seems to have some pretty awesome credentials. 

The calci worms and fruit beetle grubs I ordered yesterday have turned up this morning so Boba has some nice treats waiting for her when we get back. If she doesn't have to stay in over night or anything.

I'm a little worried about them doing a fecal test though as she's not been in 2 or 3 days so I don't have a 'fresh' sample for them.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Does anyone have any advice for transporting her?

I have a decent sized rub (about 16" square) and a hot water bottle to put underneath lol. Anything else I can do to minimise stress? (Cos she looked pretty pissed off this morning, all dark and such).

She has a flannel that she likes to lie on at night so I'll put that in with her to give her some comfort and stop her sliding around so much.


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## Tone (Jul 30, 2012)

You could put a towel over the rub, darkness normally settles animals down.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Tone said:


> You could put a towel over the rub, darkness normally settles animals down.


Cool, hadn't thought of that! Cheers buddy.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Well. Where do I begin!

I don't have full details at the moment as the xray is being done tomorrow but Richard at Trinity (thoroughly awesome bloke) reckons Boba's 'wibbly' tail isn't MBD! He says it seems like some of the vertebrae are fused (can't remember official name of condition) which isn't a problem unless it causes discomfort (it doesn't).

She currently weights 340g but should be nearer to 440g apparently. So yeah she's fairly under weight! Richard said that it's clearly due to the stress of first time laying and subsequent dip in appetite. 

Now to the leg... He can't be certain until the xray has been done tomorrow but he thinks it's an internal infection which might have spread to the bone. He said it's most likely from an insect bite which could have happened a while back which is why there's no sign of bite marks or lesions. He's fairly certain it hasn't spread (again the xray will tell all tomorrow) but also won't be treatable with antibiotics which means she's going to be a tripod  

I've not long been home as we got lost on the way back lol but I'm feeling pretty drained and extremely apprehensive about the likely operation tomorrow. I need to call them at 3pm to see how everything went. Richard isn't doing the xray or op as he's not in tomorrow but his colleague who is just as capable will be.

Richard also said not to think any of it is my fault as my husbandry seems fine. 

Oh one last thing... she had traces of parasite eggs in her poo which most likely have been there all her life.

I don't like staring at an empty viv


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Well. Where do I begin!
> 
> I don't have full details at the moment as the xray is being done tomorrow but Richard at Trinity (thoroughly awesome bloke) reckons Boba's 'wibbly' tail isn't MBD! He says it seems like some of the vertebrae are fused (can't remember official name of condition) which isn't a problem unless it causes discomfort (it doesn't).
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that mate, but at least it's not MBD and she's going to stay with you. There's a video i saw on YouTube today of a beardie with no foot, and it managed just fine. 

Do those parasites cause a problem?


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## BenThompson (Sep 6, 2012)

I once rescued a dragon who had a broken leg and it looked very much like this, the leg healed in its broken state (before i got him) and looked like that for the rest of his life, anyways he lived a very happy live and sadly died at the grand old age of 13 (roughly) Good Luck with xrays and op! :2thumb:


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Cheers guys, muchly appreciated.

Apparently the parasites aren't a problem but he'll give me something for them anyway. He said that the majority or reptiles that come through his door have some sort of parasite, although most aren't aggressive.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Cheers guys, muchly appreciated.
> 
> Apparently the parasites aren't a problem but he'll give me something for them anyway. He said that the majority or reptiles that come through his door have some sort of parasite, although most aren't aggressive.


Are they problematic? And are there symptoms?


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Are they problematic? And are there symptoms?


No apparently they're not a problem at all as far as he can tell. There'll be more in depth results tomorrow. No symptoms as far as I'm aware. I've certainly had no idea, I was actually dumbfounded when he told me!


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> No apparently they're not a problem at all as far as he can tell. There'll be more in depth results tomorrow. No symptoms as far as I'm aware. I've certainly had no idea, I was actually dumbfounded when he told me!


I'm wondering if i should take mine to the vets for a routine check up to be honest. That being said, faeces contains all sorts of nasties anyway


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

I suppose it couldn't hurt. I'll be taking boba and my Leo jango regularly from now on. 

So preoccupied with worry this morning. Want 3pm to come around so I can see how boba is. 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## Bab1084 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hope boba is ok


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Bab1084 said:


> Hope boba is ok


Thanks buddy. Time will tell. This morning is going veeeeery slowly.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Just wanted to wish you and your dragon good,luck today. It sounds like she is in good hands. Hopefully it wont be too long before your posting avpositive sounding update.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Good luck with Boba. I know what it's like waiting for contact from the vets! X


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Mal said:


> Just wanted to wish you and your dragon good,luck today. It sounds like she is in good hands. Hopefully it wont be too long before your posting avpositive sounding update.


I hope so buddy I really do. From the physical examination he was fairly certain it hadn't spread but if the xray shows it has it could mean her being PTS.


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## Geeecko (Aug 19, 2012)

Got my fingers and toes firmly crossed for you. It is so upsetting having a poorly pet. I hope the little Boba makes a speedy recovery!


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

I've spoken to Trinity and have an update on Boba...

Her leg has indeed been removed with just a small nub remaining as her knee joint was pretty much non-existant due to corrosion and they wanted to take it off high enough to ensure the infection didn't spread. She's had antbiotics and painkillers and has just woken up and seems to be very lively considering! There was no sign of the infection having spread to any other bone in her body and the 'wibbly' tail is indeed simply fused vertebrae and nothing to worry about.

Phew!

They want to keep her in over night to give her some more painkillers and monitor her but she's free to be collected first thing tomorrow which my colleague who lives in Maidstone has kindly offered to do.

There will be a course of medicine to give her when she's home and apparently she'll be up and running about in no time (although 25% slower I should think). 

I've been sent an image of her xray which I've included below (photoshopped for better clarity) as I thought you guys might like to take a look. Notice how bad her knee joint is in her back left leg! 










I'm going to go home tonight and make sure her viv is thoroughly scrubbed and disinfected with new wood chip. When she gets home tomorrow I'll need to jyp out of work to settle her in but is there anything in particular I need to do to make sure she's comfortable and at minimal risk of getting another infection while the wound is healing? I'm sure the vat will give my colleague info on after care to give to me (I'll call them if not) but is there anything else I need to do before she gets home? Also how long should I leave it before handling her? As I don't want to cause unnecessary stress while she's healing.

Thank you once again guys for all of your support. It really means a lot.

- Adam


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm so glad she's been treated and getting better! And thanks for putting up the X-ray, I find them so interesting (and you can really see her kinky tail from it).

The only thing I would suggest is not putting her back on woodchips. Newspaper or kitchen roll would be much better for keeping the wound clean and is easy to change when needed


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

vgorst said:


> I'm so glad she's been treated and getting better! And thanks for putting up the X-ray, I find them so interesting (and you can really see her kinky tail from it).
> 
> The only thing I would suggest is not putting her back on woodchips. Newspaper or kitchen roll would be much better for keeping the wound clean and is easy to change when needed


Yeah I found it really interesting lol. I didn't realise quite how lumpy her tail was until I saw the x-ray. 

Ok I'll remove all of the wood chip tonight and replace with kitchen roll. Thank you.

:2thumb:


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## Zoobec (Jul 24, 2012)

Glad to hear boba is going to be ok. I am no expert having only just got our beardie a few weeks ago, but I would say that loose substrate might get stuck in the wound, maybe Lino or paper towels might be better?

Edit: sorry this has already been discussed whilst I was reading the last post and typing up my post. Slow broadband today!


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Zoobec said:


> Glad to hear boba is going to be ok. I am no expert having only just got our beardie a few weeks ago, but I would say that loose substrate might get stuck in the wound, maybe Lino or paper towels might be better?
> 
> Edit: sorry this has already been discussed whilst I was reading the last post and typing up my post. Slow broadband today!


It's all good buddy, thank you for suggesting it anyway. Don't know why it didn't cross my mind to be honest. I think I was just too excited about the fact that she's going to be ok!


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Soooooo. anyone know any good exotic pet insurers? Lol. I get to find out after 5pm how much of a raping my bank account is in for.


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## Geeecko (Aug 19, 2012)

So glad for you that Boba has made it!! You will have to give her lots of attention and love:flrt:. I am sure she will adapt well to the changes to her, she obviously has a great owner.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Animals are amazing creatures. When i had rats i knew someone who had a blind one. Provided she didn't change the cage around, that rat would run around and lived as though it could see perfectly


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Geeecko said:


> So glad for you that Boba has made it!! You will have to give her lots of attention and love:flrt:. I am sure she will adapt well to the changes to her, she obviously has a great owner.


Awww thanks :blush: I've got some calci worms and fruit beetle grubs (f*****g massive one's) lined up for her when she's home as a treat and to help fatten her up.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Fantastic news that she got through the surgery ok. The knee does look a mess on the xray. Im sure she will soon adapt to being a beardie robin reliant. Dont paint her yellow though. Hope you dont mind a tip for her recovery. All the antibiotics will knock off the friendly bacteria in her gut. These are essential for normal gut function and without them she wont have much of an appetite. It would be worth getting some Avipro and putting it in her water as well as dripping a few drops into her mouth. It will quickly recolonise the normal gut flora. Please keep us updated as to her progreds. Thrre looks to be quite a following wishing her a speedy recovery.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Animals are amazing creatures. When i had rats i knew someone who had a blind one. Provided she didn't change the cage around, that rat would run around and lived as though it could see perfectly


That's pretty awesome! The vet said that they adapt very well the losing a limb and she'll be running around again in no time. :2thumb:


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Awww thanks :blush: I've got some calci worms and fruit beetle grubs (f*****g massive one's) lined up for her when she's home as a treat and to help fatten her up.


Where do you buy your live food?


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Mal said:


> Fantastic news that she got through the surgery ok. The knee does look a mess on the xray. Im sure she will soon adapt to being a beardie robin reliant. Dont paint her yellow though. Hope you dont mind a tip for her recovery. All the antibiotics will knock off the friendly bacteria in her gut. These are essential for normal gut function and without them she wont have much of an appetite. It would be worth getting some Avipro and putting it in her water as well as dripping a few drops into her mouth. It will quickly recolonise the normal gut flora. Please keep us updated as to her progreds. Thrre looks to be quite a following wishing her a speedy recovery.


Robin Reliant! Ha ha ha, I said exactly the same thing to my Mrs last night!!! 

No no, all tips greatly appreciated. I'm ordering some repashy and other bits tomorrow so I'll get some Avipro at the same time. Thanks dude. 

I looked at the amount of views this thread has earlier and was shocked! So nice to have so many people rooting for her. : victory:


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Where do you buy your live food?


Well I get Crickets, Locusts, Mealworms, Morio worms and Wax worms from local reptile shop. I breed my own Dubia roaches (just a small colony to feed boba and the odd baby one for my leo) and the Calci worms and Fruit beetle grubs came from Livefood UK Ltd. Top Quality Livefood Direct from the farm to your door.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Well I get Crickets, Locusts, Mealworms, Morio worms and Wax worms from local reptile shop. I breed my own Dubia roaches (just a small colony to feed boba and the odd baby one for my leo) and the Calci worms and Fruit beetle grubs came from Livefood UK Ltd. Top Quality Livefood Direct from the farm to your door.


Thanks. Are they good service?


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Thanks. Are they good service?


Well it's the first time I've ordered from them but the service was exceptional! I ordered them early Tuesday afternoon with standard delivery and they turned up first thing Wednesday morning. Well packaged and no dead one's!


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Well it's the first time I've ordered from them but the service was exceptional! I ordered them early Tuesday afternoon with standard delivery and they turned up first thing Wednesday morning. Well packaged and no dead one's!


Very good! Great prices too, best i've seen so far. Bookmarked!


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Mal said:


> Fantastic news that she got through the surgery ok. The knee does look a mess on the xray. Im sure she will soon adapt to being a beardie robin reliant. Dont paint her yellow though. Hope you dont mind a tip for her recovery. All the antibiotics will knock off the friendly bacteria in her gut. These are essential for normal gut function and without them she wont have much of an appetite. It would be worth getting some Avipro and putting it in her water as well as dripping a few drops into her mouth. It will quickly recolonise the normal gut flora. Please keep us updated as to her progreds. Thrre looks to be quite a following wishing her a speedy recovery.


Hey Mal, is this the stuff?.. Vetark AviPro Plus 100g - Surrey Pet Supplies


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Very good! Great prices too, best i've seen so far. Bookmarked!


Yeah I'll definitely be using them again if she get's on well with the grubs. She's had calci worms before so I know they won't be a problem. The grubs are freaky looking, I'm not usually fazed by bugs but I think I'll be using tweezers to handle these things.


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## Bab1084 (Dec 9, 2011)

messymedia said:


> Soooooo. anyone know any good exotic pet insurers? Lol. I get to find out after 5pm how much of a raping my bank account is in for.


Not worth the money, you would be better just transfering a few pound into a seperate account each week it soon mounts up!  Glad to hear she is doing well 



richwhite said:


> Where do you buy your live food?


Ricks Livefood
sell calci worms, pachnoda grubs and butterworms 



messymedia said:


> Awww thanks :blush: I've got some calci worms and fruit beetle grubs (f*****g massive one's) lined up for her when she's home as a treat and to help fatten her up.


get some butterworms they are full of calcium and will help her put sum weight on mine goes nuts for them  but as hes a podgy thing already i just use them as a treat.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Yeah I'll definitely be using them again if she get's on well with the grubs. She's had calci worms before so I know they won't be a problem. The grubs are freaky looking, I'm not usually fazed by bugs but I think I'll be using tweezers to handle these things.


You don't use them anyway? I have some short feeding tongs, i don't want to be handling scurrying crickets


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## Geeecko (Aug 19, 2012)

richwhite said:


> Thanks. Are they good service?



I can vouch for these, great prices and service and very lively food!


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## Bab1084 (Dec 9, 2011)

messymedia said:


> Yeah I'll definitely be using them again if she get's on well with the grubs. She's had calci worms before so I know they won't be a problem. The grubs are freaky looking, I'm not usually fazed by bugs but I think I'll be using tweezers to handle these things.


Becareful with the grubs they nip and hard! :devil:

you might want to squish there heads before feeding to Boba until she gets a bit better?


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

messymedia said:


> Hey Mal, is this the stuff?.. Vetark AviPro Plus 100g - Surrey Pet Supplies


Yep, thats the stuff. One scoop to 100ml water. Once mixed you can keep the solution in the fridge for 24 hrs. You will have more than enough in the tub to get her going. We always keep a tub in our reptile first aid kit.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

Mal said:


> Yep, thats the stuff. One scoop to 100ml water. Once mixed you can keep the solution in the fridge for 24 hrs. You will have more than enough in the tub to get her going. We always keep a tub in our reptile first aid kit.


How does that for dragons without water bowls?


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

A healthy dragon wouldnt need it but following surgery or during illness a dragon should have access to water. They may drink from a bowl if dehydrated. Howve it can also be dripped onto the dragons lips and tip of its snout which will probably result in it licking it up. Last resort is gently syringing into the mouth but that can be very stressful to the dragon and the keeper.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> You don't use them anyway? I have some short feeding tongs, i don't want to be handling scurrying crickets


Ha ha. No I usually use my hands! Boba won't really eat meal/morio worms unless I hand feed them. She's got a good aim so hasn't missed and caught my fingers... yet. I'm still a bit funny about handling adult dubia roaches but fine touching every other sort of insect. I'm glad reptiles don't eat spiders though cos that would be a whole different story!


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Bab1084 said:


> Becareful with the grubs they nip and hard! :devil:
> 
> you might want to squish there heads before feeding to Boba until she gets a bit better?


Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. I'll definitely be squishing their heads then, even when she's better... don't want her to get another infected bite!


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Ha ha. No I usually use my hands! Boba won't really eat meal/morio worms unless I hand feed them. She's got a good aim so hasn't missed and caught my fingers... yet. I'm still a bit funny about handling adult dubia roaches but fine touching every other sort of insect. I'm glad reptiles don't eat spiders though cos that would be a whole different story!


Oh spiders i wouldn't even use the tongs, i just wouldn't get the pet :lol2:

I'm ok with all of them in the sense that i can do it, but i wouldn't want to do it bare handed, i don't trust them not to bite me. 
Didge will now eat wax worms from the tongs, but nothing else. Her appetite hasn't been all that great the past couple of days actually.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Mal said:


> Yep, thats the stuff. One scoop to 100ml water. Once mixed you can keep the solution in the fridge for 24 hrs. You will have more than enough in the tub to get her going. We always keep a tub in our reptile first aid kit.


Brilliant thanks Mal. She always has a small water bowl in her viv so I'll add some to it. I'll order some tonight and see if I can get next day delivery or something.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Oh spiders i wouldn't even use the tongs, i just wouldn't get the pet :lol2:
> 
> I'm ok with all of them in the sense that i can do it, but i wouldn't want to do it bare handed, i don't trust them not to bite me.
> Didge will now eat wax worms from the tongs, but nothing else. Her appetite hasn't been all that great the past couple of days actually.


Ha ha. I totally understand!

I've never been bitten by an insect, never even thought about it really. I just grab them and drop them in front of her! Crickets and locusts are usually fairly dippy though as I put them in fridge first to calm them down.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Ha ha. I totally understand!
> 
> I've never been bitten by an insect, never even thought about it really. I just grab them and drop them in front of her! Crickets and locusts are usually fairly dippy though as I put them in fridge first to calm them down.


Ah, i don't do that, she's only really interested if she sees them moving.

When do you dust them? I put the ones i'm feeding into a pot with the dust, then put that pot into the viv


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Ah, i don't do that, she's only really interested if she sees them moving.
> 
> When do you dust them? I put the ones i'm feeding into a pot with the dust, then put that pot into the viv


Well I generally keep all bugs in their respective tubs with gutload that gets changed out daily (usually dusted left over greens from Boba's veg bowl and bug grub). I put crickets and locusts into fridge for ten minutes just before I feed her. When it comes to feeding I get the bugs out the fridge, or off the shelf if they're worms or dubia's, then tip them into a spare live food tub which has a mix of calcium and Nutrobal, give it a shake to coat them and then pick them out one by one and give to her. If I'm in a rush to get to work I'll put the tub in her viv and let her eat them as she sees fit.


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## richwhite (Jun 5, 2012)

messymedia said:


> Well I generally keep all bugs in their respective tubs with gutload that gets changed out daily (usually dusted left over greens from Boba's veg bowl and bug grub). I put crickets and locusts into fridge for ten minutes just before I feed her. When it comes to feeding I get the bugs out the fridge, or off the shelf if they're worms or dubia's, then tip them into a spare live food tub which has a mix of calcium and Nutrobal, give it a shake to coat them and then pick them out one by one and give to her. If I'm in a rush to get to work I'll put the tub in her viv and let her eat them as she sees fit.


Ah, sounds like a good system. I don't use bug grub though, just chuck some veg in with the insects when they run out


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

richwhite said:


> Ah, sounds like a good system. I don't use bug grub though, just chuck some veg in with the insects when they run out


Truth be told I only use bug grub as I was given a couple of tubs of it for free. I tend to stick to veg mainly.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

Awesome news! Hoping for a speedy recovery!


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Glad she's pulled through and is on the road to recovery. Scary how a simple swollen knee can turn into such a huge issue for her.

On the grubs. If you can then put the into a bigger tub with some compost and leaf litter. They care cannabalistic and will eat each other if housed in close quarters too long. Stick a lump of fruit (apple is great) just under the surface of the compost and that will keep them busy and fat, they eat rotten fruit so don't be overly fussy on changing it, once a week is fine. If they pupate then you can get some nice beetles to breed or sell. (edit) feed them that woodchip, they eat dry wood also, hence the big knashers on them

I'd actually be tempted to put her on a towel rather than paper. It will give her a bit of cushion on that leg till she gets used to not walking on it. Or even a couple towels layered with paper on top of them. Wash the towels in clean water with no soap powder and rince well. A good bang on that leg could possibly open it up and we don't want that do we.

Once it's all healed up and has been reviewed by the vet again then back to normal substrate possibly. I'd skip the woodchip though as it will be very tender for a long time I would think. Possibly put her on sand so that if she does slip and put her full wieght on it then the sand will give that bit of cushion still.



edit again...

Grab some Manuka honey from Aldi. We pay £3.50 a jar for the 12% one (for the dogs night night treat lol). Its really good for helping boost their immune system and its also a natural antibiotic and added bonus is it stimulates appetite. Dip a grub in it once a day (or whatever she will definatly eat). Once she's had that try her with other food. Worked great for my female when she was on hunger strike, she started wolfing down food after she'd had a few waxies in honey. Not tooo much though as its very sweet


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## arvey (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm glad it's gone well for you.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

nicnet said:


> Glad she's pulled through and is on the road to recovery. Scary how a simple swollen knee can turn into such a huge issue for her.
> 
> On the grubs. If you can then put the into a bigger tub with some compost and leaf litter. They care cannabalistic and will eat each other if housed in close quarters too long. Stick a lump of fruit (apple is great) just under the surface of the compost and that will keep them busy and fat, they eat rotten fruit so don't be overly fussy on changing it, once a week is fine. If they pupate then you can get some nice beetles to breed or sell. (edit) feed them that woodchip, they eat dry wood also, hence the big knashers on them


Sweet advice! Cheers buddy. I'll certainly do that when I get home this evening. I didn't realise they we're toothy enough to eat wood lol. Scary shit!!!



nicnet said:


> I'd actually be tempted to put her on a towel rather than paper. It will give her a bit of cushion on that leg till she gets used to not walking on it. Or even a couple towels layered with paper on top of them. Wash the towels in clean water with no soap powder and rince well. A good bang on that leg could possibly open it up and we don't want that do we.
> 
> Once it's all healed up and has been reviewed by the vet again then back to normal substrate possibly. I'd skip the woodchip though as it will be very tender for a long time I would think. Possibly put her on sand so that if she does slip and put her full wieght on it then the sand will give that bit of cushion still.


She currently has a clean towel up the hot end of the viv and paper towels over the whole viv. I won't be using wood chip any more so not to worry.



nicnet said:


> edit again...
> 
> Grab some Manuka honey from Aldi. We pay £3.50 a jar for the 12% one (for the dogs night night treat lol). Its really good for helping boost their immune system and its also a natural antibiotic and added bonus is it stimulates appetite. Dip a grub in it once a day (or whatever she will definatly eat). Once she's had that try her with other food. Worked great for my female when she was on hunger strike, she started wolfing down food after she'd had a few waxies in honey. Not tooo much though as its very sweet


I've never heard of Manuka honey! I'll definitely look into for the immune system boosting properties. I'm hoping she'll be ok appetite-wise as she scoffed a shed load when I got her home.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

arvey said:


> I'm glad it's gone well for you.


Thanks mate. And thank you for the advice, I know you weren't meaning to scare me, I was just terrified that I was going to lose her. : victory:


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## Bab1084 (Dec 9, 2011)

messymedia said:


> Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. I'll definitely be squishing their heads then, even when she's better... don't want her to get another infected bite!


Yeah i had one on my hand for my beardie and it nipped was suprised at how hard it did to b honest! i nearly jumped out my skin! as you can imagine i now use tongs to feed them! :lol2:


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## lilbeth (Aug 28, 2012)

Was following this and (prob like most people) was a little worried.
So pleased everything is good!


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

How sad does it make me that I just pulled the head off of a fruit beetle grub for Boba and now feel really bad? Lol. I feel like it was scared as it shat itself as I took the head off! Maybe I'm just too squeamish for bugs like this.

I see what people mean about the grubs biting! Whenever I touched it with tweezers it struck at them!!!

I'll be uploading some pics of Boba's nub later on if anyone is interested? The Mrs likes the fact that the stitches are purple lol.

- Adam


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

It really is wonderful that things are progressing in the right direction. Your certainly a very dedicated and caring keeper. The hobby gets so much bad press through people failing to get their animals the care or treatment they need. The lengths and efforts you have gone to for your dragon should be applauded. It really represents the positive and responsable side of caring reptile keeping. Keep up the excellent care, Im sure this will have a happy ending.


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## messymedia (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks Mal! That means a lot. Boba and I have always been really close lol, as I've lost a couple of people who were very close to me in the last couple of years and always had my two lizards to sit with when I was feeling low.

I like to think anyone would show just as much love to their pets but as you said It's often not the case. 

I've had a couple of people make comments recently about it not being worth the vet bills when I could just buy another lizard! People like that shouldn't be allowed animals as they obviously have no compassion in them. 



















Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

She actually looks a lot happier with herself on those pics. Possibly in much less pain now than she was with that crumbled knee joint. Aside from the fact she is on painkillers and probably stoned out her tree lol.

Up to her now really, as long as she eat her veggies and noshes her grubbage.


Make her a super duper grubby fruit salad from me ;p


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