# Chinese alligators vs American alligators



## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

I posted this question in the lizard section originally, but the posters recommended me to post it here as there might be some experts who can answer my question:

_Hi all, I'm new here. I'm not a herpetologist or biologist, so if this question seem incredibly stupid, my apologies.

I have a question on alligators (but since there is no croc section on this forum, I'll put it in this section). I wonder why the Chinese alligator, being the closest cousin to the American alligator, is found half-way around the world from it's American counterpart. How did it get there? It is separated by thousand of miles of ocean with no croc or alligator species in-between them geographically (for that latitude). So how did the Chinese alligator end up in China?_


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

It's probably down to convergent evolution. Look at Green tree pythons and Emerald tree Boas.. From different parts of the planet, but are extremely similar in appearance. To a layperson, virtually identical. They fulfil an ecological niche, and have evolved accordingly, to appear very similar even down to dentitiion. Worth considering that all the countries of the world were at one time a great land mass.


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## Bradleybradleyc (May 7, 2012)

Moshpitviper said:


> It's probably down to convergent evolution. Look at Green tree pythons and Emerald tree Boas.. From different parts of the planet, but are extremely similar in appearance. To a layperson, virtually identical. They fulfil an ecological niche, and have evolved accordingly, to appear very similar even down to dentitiion. *Worth considering that all the countries of the world were at one time a great land mass.*


Have you read the sun today :lol2:

Was interesting to see how the world may have looked all them years ago !


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

It's not convergent evolution as they are the same genus , Crocodilia are ancient and I mean ancient. modern Alligators were formed during the Oligocene epoch 37 million years ago there were several species spread across the globe including Europe and Asia many of these species became extinct with the Earth's climate shift by 20 million years ago only two species remained. Crocodilia really are living dinosaurs, all that shit they've dealt with and we've squished them in a nanosecond! some reports say there are less than 100 sinensis left in the wild!

cheers Tim


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## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

Tim Hallam said:


> It's not convergent evolution as they are the same genus , Crocodilia are ancient and I mean ancient. modern Alligators were formed during the Oligocene epoch 37 million years ago there were several species spread across the globe including Europe and Asia many of these species became extinct with the Earth's climate shift by 20 million years ago only two species remained. Crocodilia really are living dinosaurs, all that shit they've dealt with and we've squished them in a nanosecond! some reports say there are less than 100 sinensis left in the wild!
> 
> cheers Tim


Fascinating. So that means there were once more alligator species occupying the vast geographical space between the Chinese and American species. And all of them went extinct. But that still leaves the question of how did the American alligator reach Asia. There is the land bridge over what is now the Bering sea that connected North America and Asia. But even if the climate was warmer then, would'nt that land bridge be too cold for the alligator to get across? I know alligators are the most cold-tolerant of the crocodilians, but would'nt Alaska and Siberia be too much for them?


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

American Alligators didn't get to Asia the alligators were already there when Asia was formed they became distant as the species that existed in Europe and other parts of Asia became extinct _A.mississippiensis_ continues to exist in much the same range it always has, North America had other species such as _A.prenasalis_, _A.sinensis_ used to be widespread across china and has deminished to just a small area. geographically they seem remote but they are not really.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Bradleybradleyc said:


> Have you read the sun today :lol2:
> 
> Was interesting to see how the world may have looked all them years ago !


No, What's in the sun? other than tits and lies?


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## Bradleybradleyc (May 7, 2012)

Moshpitviper said:


> No, What's in the sun? other than tits and lies?


They had a map how earth may have looked millions of years ago, all the countries togther before the separation, looked rather impressive.

And yes the tits are back on page 3 :2thumb:


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## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

Tim Hallam said:


> American Alligators didn't get to Asia the alligators were already there when Asia was formed they became distant as the species that existed in Europe and other parts of Asia became extinct _A.mississippiensis_ continues to exist in much the same range it always has, North America had other species such as _A.prenasalis_, _A.sinensis_ used to be widespread across china and has deminished to just a small area. geographically they seem remote but they are not really.


Thanks for the correction.

So that means the common ancestor of the Chinese and American alligator must have crossed the land bridge earlier and then the alligator species spread. But did the alligator came originally from North America or Eurasia?


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

Moshpitviper said:


> Worth considering that all the countries of the world were at one time a great land mass.


As above, this is from where the common ancestor hailed.


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## Yemeyana (May 18, 2011)

There are dinosaurs from Antarctica. Everywhere was warmer and closer together when crocs started being crocs. 

Crocodiles split off from the same common ancestor of dinosaurs at vaguely the time dinosaurs started, as I understand it. Interestlingy, this makes birds the closest living relatives of crocodilians. Go figure.


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## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

Yemeyana said:


> There are dinosaurs from Antarctica. Everywhere was warmer and closer together when crocs started being crocs.
> 
> Crocodiles split off from the same common ancestor of dinosaurs at vaguely the time dinosaurs started, as I understand it. *Interestlingy, this makes birds the closest living relatives of crocodilians. Go figure.*


Which raises another interesting question, why aren't birds classified as reptiles? (Or is it? According to some it is). If birds are living theropod dinosaurs, should'nt they be reptiles?

As for Chinese alligators, from time to time I thought about owning one. Not a serious thought of course, given the expertise, time and money required to keep such an animal. And in any case, given how rare they are in the wild, I don't think obtaining one would be easy or legal (although I'm told they are quite prolific in captivity). Does anyone actually own a Chinese alligator in the UK?


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

Chinese Alligators are commonly bred in captivity they're CITES 1 so article 10 paperwork is required and they're not cheap but yes they are available and yes there are several in the UK in private and public collections. 

cheers Tim


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## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

Tim Hallam said:


> Chinese Alligators are commonly bred in captivity they're CITES 1 so article 10 paperwork is required and they're not cheap but yes they are available and yes there are several in the UK in private and public collections.
> 
> cheers Tim


Thanks again.

Although I don't have the time and money required for such a major commitment, it's good to know it is possible. So maybe one day when I do have the resources, I can keep my own Chinese alligator (as to when that one day is, sigh...).

They even made the Chinese alligator into an "alligator soup" back in China, so there must be sufficient number of these gators to allow them to be eaten. Yeah, I know the American alligators are edible (and apparently taste pretty good if properly prepared), but the presentation of this Chinese alligator dish really isn't very appetizing:

Alligator soup raises eyebrows in China


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## Ghostmorgan (May 31, 2013)

The Chinese alligators are surely quite dangerous..they become quite annoyed as they are kept in bars and tend to attack anyone going in their vicinity..i guess the American ones are a bit calmer and they do not attack that instantly.


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

yeah I've been in a few bars like that!


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## tomboa01 (Nov 9, 2012)

Tim Hallam said:


> Chinese Alligators are commonly bred in captivity they're CITES 1 so article 10 paperwork is required and they're not cheap but yes they are available and yes there are several in the UK in private and public collections.
> 
> cheers Tim


100% agree my local reptile shop owner has 5 all together and when i did work experience their lt year we got talking about his chinese alligators and he said they cost him a bomb to get them haha, there stunning if you ask me


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## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

tomboa01 said:


> 100% agree my local reptile shop owner has 5 all together and when i did work experience their lt year we got talking about his chinese alligators and he said they cost him a bomb to get them haha, there stunning if you ask me


Interesting. How old were these alligators? Hatchlings? How can you distinguish it from an American alligator or the caimans?

Wish I had the ability to care for one right now. Still, I am so fascinated by them.


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## tomboa01 (Nov 9, 2012)

cfg123 said:


> Interesting. How old were these alligators? Hatchlings? How can you distinguish it from an American alligator or the caimans?
> 
> Wish I had the ability to care for one right now. Still, I am so fascinated by them.


think he sed some were 2/3 year old and chinese alligators are typically smaller than the american ones and have a rther small head,


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## Herpalist (Jun 17, 2009)

cfg123 said:


> If birds are living theropod dinosaurs, should'nt they be reptiles?


 
No, bird's don't shed their skin like reptiles therefore they cannot be classified as reptilian I guess :notworthy:


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## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

tomboa01 said:


> think he sed some were 2/3 year old and chinese alligators are typically smaller than the american ones and have a rther small head,


Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, Chinese alligators normally don't grow beyond 2 m long. Some say that might have to do with their northern subtropical habitat compared to their more tropical croc cousins found further south.

But what exactly about alligators, both the Chinese and American, that makes them more cold-tolerant than crocodiles and caimans?


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## cfg123 (Jun 3, 2013)

Herpalist-Maybe, but fossil record clearly shows birds evolved from dinosaurs, and most palentologists consider birds as living dinosaurs, and since dinosaurs are reptiles, that means...never mind, I guess I am thinking too much on this, hahaha.


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## tomboa01 (Nov 9, 2012)

cfg123 said:


> Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, Chinese alligators normally don't grow beyond 2 m long. Some say that might have to do with their northern subtropical habitat compared to their more tropical croc cousins found further south.
> 
> But what exactly about alligators, both the Chinese and American, that makes them more cold-tolerant than crocodiles and caimans?


thats correct i think it's cuz their not made to eat big like crocs do, chinese allis n alligators tend to eat fish and other small prey,

asfor being colld tolerant i think its cuz of the activity and what they eat as crocs eats animals such as wilderbeasts and zebras etc they have to heat (and as the live in africa n other hot places) for them to be able to be activite to catch their prey and alligoters including the chinese ones tend to eat small prey such as fish n etc, 

i have no eperience with any type and what iv said may not be 100% correct 
its what i believe and if i have got any of the information im more than happy for anyone to correct it


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