# Hamm? Anyone go. Any courier?



## John1975 (Aug 28, 2009)

Hello all I’ve asked a couple of couriers if they attend the eu shows and I’ve drawn a blank. Before we left eu I paid a bloke for some snakes then I paid another bloke to bring them back in his van 👍. Snaketastic. Is this a thing if the past? I’m attempting to get myself an emerald so it’s cites. I’m even considering driving myself but I’m wondering if it’s doomed to failure. Any insight would be much appreciated. Thanks In advance 
John


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

John1975 said:


> Hello all I’ve asked a couple of couriers if they attend the eu shows and I’ve drawn a blank. Before we left eu I paid a bloke for some snakes then I paid another bloke to bring them back in his van 👍. Snaketastic. Is this a thing if the past? I’m attempting to get myself an emerald so it’s cites. I’m even considering driving myself but I’m wondering if it’s doomed to failure. Any insight would be much appreciated. Thanks In advance
> John


Hi John,
Its very possible but its a long process and is quite expensive.
I did it back in September. The biggest problems that I had were finding a seller that was willing to get the EU export CITES and finding a customs agent to do the online customs clearance.
To explain European sellers can sell to other European sellers without the hassle of going through the CITES paperwork that they do for us ( well certainly for Appendix 2 species). A customs agent is required to do the online declaration for CITES species( this is not required for non CITES species). 
So you need to find a seller that will apply for the European CITES paperwork. He will complete that and it cost me 100€. Once you have that you can apply for the UK CITES import papers. That cost me £67 per species. You need the export papers before you can apply for the import papers. The whole process took 10 to 12 weeks. This needs to be factored in as you cannot simply get them on a whim. 
Once you have all the CITES paperwork you can find a customs agent. I found this difficult as most didnt want to do it because of the hassle of a one off transaction for live animals. I had to send him both sets of CITES paperwork and copies of my passport and driving licence. He also wanted to know the route that I was travelling, date of travel and for me to declare that the animals were not invasive species. Once that was done I paid his fee of £60 plus VAT on the value of the animals and VAT on the £60.
All in all I estimated that it cost me about £350 on top of the animals but this of course depends on the value of the animals for the VAT value.
You are limited to the ports of exit and entry for CITES species. Calais and Dover or Eurotunnel Folkestone are the only ones that I found.
At Eurotunnel Calais the French customs have a couple of kiosks in the shop and restaurant area where you hand over the paperwork to be stamped. Nothing needs to be declared at passport control.
Then through the UK passport control. Nothing needs to be declared here. Back into England and you need to declare the animals and get the paperwork stamped either at Dover or STOP 24 on the M20.
Thats it in a nutshell. The only stipulations that I would advise of is that when I did it, I did it for my own animals ( ie not commercial), and they were Appendix 2 species. I suspect it will be more difficult for commercial sales and Appendix 1 species.
I have heard horror stories of others doing it but maybe i was lucky, I dont know.


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## John1975 (Aug 28, 2009)

colinm said:


> Hi John,
> Its very possible but its a long process and is quite expensive.
> I did it back in September. The biggest problems that I had were finding a seller that was willing to get the EU export CITES and finding a customs agent to do the online customs clearance.
> To explain European sellers can sell to other European sellers without the hassle of going through the CITES paperwork that they do for us ( well certainly for Appendix 2 species). A customs agent is required to do the online declaration for CITES species( this is not required for non CITES species).
> ...


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Colin was pretty thorough in his response, though both CITES imports I have done by driving myself were met with some customs issues that caused extensive delay, one of them I had to stay an extra night in France unexpectedly at late notice. It seems due to lack of training.

It is worth mentioning that Ridgeway courier can do CITES imports on your behalf, you can do the paperwork application yourself, or you can ask them to do it for you for a fee. CITES applications take around 3 months, and require the export papers to be done first by the breeder in their country and then they send you the numbers to do the import papers; just like Colin described. Ridgeway provide a good service, though I have not used them for CITES animals yet. Next time I import CITES I will use them rather than do it myself though, just so there is less hassle.

Worth noting though however that they only collect from Houten and not Hamm.


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## John1975 (Aug 28, 2009)

LiasisUK said:


> Colin was pretty thorough in his response, though both CITES imports I have done by driving myself were met with some customs issues that caused extensive delay, one of them I had to stay an extra night in France unexpectedly at late notice. It seems due to lack of training.
> 
> It is worth mentioning that Ridgeway courier can do CITES imports on your behalf, you can do the paperwork application yourself, or you can ask them to do it for you for a fee. CITES applications take around 3 months, and require the export papers to be done first by the breeder in their country and then they send you the numbers to do the import papers; just like Colin described. Ridgeway provide a good service, though I have not used them for CITES animals yet. Next time I import CITES I will use them rather than do it myself though, just so there is less hassle.
> 
> Worth noting though however that they only collect from Houten and not Hamm.


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## John1975 (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks both for your replies. Despite the trouble snd expense you managed to get your animals back though yes? I’ve spoken to another courier. Ridgeway looked great but my breeder can’t seem to get animals to houten. He was more than willing to do the cites business though. So I spoke to reptile courier eu. It seems they too may not go to hamm to to limited demand. By the time they announce either way it may be touch and go on the cites stuff. I’m wondering if I just bits the bullet snd go to hamm myself. The only thing was the courier I spoke to today mentioned that there had to be a health check certificate or something that was yet another potential obstacle. Can either of you enlighten me pls? Also it would be helpful if I could get a contact for the importation stuff. Thanks in advance.I feel like it would be easier to just chance it and stick it down my trousers tbh


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Theres no reason why you can't go and collect yourself, BUT you must bring the animal/s back into the UK via a designated CITES port. I'm not sure on the animal health certificate issue.
Best thing is to contact the APHA helpline.
You should be able to find it via the gov.uk site


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

There isnt enough time to get the paperwork for CITES species for any shows this year. You need to start now for next February or March. Thr process as follows;
1) Book the animals from your European breeder.
2) Get him to get the CITES EU export papers.
3)Send a copy of the export papers to UK Defra.Apply for The CITES import papers at UK Defra.
All of this takes 10 to 12 weeks.
Then you can employ a UK shipping agent.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

colinm said:


> There isnt enough time to get the paperwork for CITES species for any shows this year. You need to start now for next February or March. Thr process as follows;
> 1) Book the animals from your European breeder.
> 2) Get him to get the CITES EU export papers.
> 3)Send a copy of the export papers to UK Defra.Apply for The CITES import papers at UK Defra.
> ...


Or go yourself to pick the animal/s up. As long as you come back via a CITES designated port.
I've also checked the DEFRA/APHA site, and there is no mention of a requirement for an animal health certificate. 
Off the top of my head, these are required ONLY for mammals.


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## John1975 (Aug 28, 2009)

colinm said:


> There isnt enough time to get the paperwork for CITES species for any shows this year. You need to start now for next February or March. Thr process as follows;
> 1) Book the animals from your European breeder.
> 2) Get him to get the CITES EU export papers.
> 3)Send a copy of the export papers to UK Defra.Apply for The CITES import papers at UK Defra.
> ...


Do you know if I need vet checks?this was mentioned when I spoke to courier. Such a ball ache. I’m not looking forward to driving my kids to France next year let alone a 24hr lone driveathon to pass borders prove things I don’t fully understand having spent time and money only to fall foul of some poorly understood paperwork. It fills me with Dread tbh. But I think I’ll be disappointed in myself if I don’t go


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Even if you go yourself you still need to employ a shipping agent to complete the online registration for the import of CITES species. This isnt a requirement for non CITES species. But being CITES they need to have this done by an agent. A shipping agent is totally different from a courier. Anyone importing CITES animals will need to employ a shipping agent whether they are a private individual or a courier. Pretty much as any controlled items. Its not a problem once you can get an agent willing to do this on a one off basis. 
You still need to get your paperwork stamped at Calais and Folkestone or Dover.
I am not aware that you need to get health checks on reptiles and amphibians. I was never told that I needed to.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

ian14 said:


> Or go yourself to pick the animal/s up. As long as you come back via a CITES designated port.
> I've also checked the DEFRA/APHA site, and there is no mention of a requirement for an animal health certificate.
> Off the top of my head, these are required ONLY for mammals.


Equally, shop around here. I doubt very much that there is a royal python available in the EU that isn't also available here in the UK.


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## frogeyed (Nov 8, 2012)

ian14 said:


> Equally, shop around here. I doubt very much that there is a royal python available in the EU that isn't also available here in the UK.


I think the op is after an Emerald Tree Boa.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

You are not required to have a vet issued health certificate. 
Though for all collections from Europe I produce a certificate of origin which has a health disclaimer, just a disclaimer that says 'these animals all appeared healthy upon collection' and then signed by both parties. Everyone should be doing these certs of origin, even before Brexit. They are important. Just the name and the address of who the animals came from, then who they are going to, the species, age, quantity and origin (eg. CB in Germany)

The second import I did the animals were coming from a zoo to me on loan so they did have a health certificate from the vet, but this was zoo protocol and not export protocol. 

CITES Export/Import paperwork is valid for 6 months from date of issue. So you apply, then when it arrives you have 6 months to organise your trip or courier.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

I have no experience in importing CITES reptiles, but found a lot of information, including designated ports and airports on the Government website






Trading or moving CITES-listed specimens through UK ports and airports


Designated land, sea and air ports for trading or moving CITES-listed endangered animals, plants, or their parts and derivatives.




www.gov.uk





There are links to guidance documents for each process - Hope that helps


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## John1975 (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks everyone who’s replied. I need to look more thoroughly I was under the impression you need a health ok from exporter or OV being official vet? If this is not the case I’d almost certainly go. If I didn’t think I’d get checked I’d almost certainly stick them down my trousers tbh. It’s annoying. Legally produced captive bred animals that pose no threat to our wildlife or impact in wild population and I feel like a drug mule


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

John1975 said:


> Thanks everyone who’s replied. I need to look more thoroughly I was under the impression you need a health ok from exporter or OV being official vet? If this is not the case I’d almost certainly go. If I didn’t think I’d get checked I’d almost certainly stick them down my trousers tbh. It’s annoying. Legally produced captive bred animals that pose no threat to our wildlife or impact in wild population and I feel like a drug mule


You do NOT need a vet certificate.
And don't even think about smuggling - Border Force are fully aware of dates of shows, and methods used to smuggle animals in. You end up with a criminal record, potentially prison time, and your animals seized.
The UK permit is around £70. 
CITES has nothing to do with protecting native wildlife from invasive species. It is an international treaty with over 170 countries signed up to it to ensure that trade in wildlife is conducted in a sustainable manner.
Ultimately, most of what you can buy in the EU is also available in the UK. There is some strange obsession with royal keepers that only the best come from the EU. And while some may be cheaper, by the time you factor in the costs of the permits and then either your travel there and back, or a courier, you'll be better off sourcing the same snake from a UK breeder.


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## John1975 (Aug 28, 2009)

I’m not considering smuggling. Thanks For your input. I think they use the health form as a template to outline what the exporter needs to do now I read it again. I’m just fed up because I’m assuming it’s going to fail.


Malc said:


> I have no experience in importing CITES reptiles, but found a lot of information, including designated ports and airports on the Government website
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks Malc I’ve looked I got blinded by what seemed to be insurmountable problems that actually just turned out to be a few quid and a few forms. 😬. I’ll look again more thoroughly. If I do end up driving myself I will report back in the experience. I may not go to the actual show though. Just another place to find navigate around queue at etc etc. if I’m driving to Germany I may as well just take a leisurely weekend and visit the breeder. We’ll see 👍


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

You don't need a vet certificate to import into the UK.

What you need is listed here for commercial movements: Import live animals and germinal products from the EU to Great Britain

_A commercial document must include:
_

_details of what’s in the consignment, including species and number of animals, if this applies_
_the name of the person who sent it_
_the name of the person it’s being sent to_
_address of the premises of origin_
_address of the destination premises_
_The document must travel with the consignment.

They must also send an exporter declaration that confirms the animals are fit to travel for commercial trade._

And here for non-commercial movements: Bringing animals into Great Britain

_There are no restrictions on bringing pet rodents, rabbits, invertebrates, amphibians or reptiles to Great Britain from EU countries._


As Ian says; there's not really much point doing it for species that can be obtained in the UK. It is also becoming an easier and easier process, the forms will never go away, but the procedures are becoming more fluid and obtainable. It just wasn't a very high priority for the governments, they had to sort out how to get food/fuel/etc through before us weirdos were allowed to get snakes. 
In my opinion it is completely mad to do it for Royals, I know the OP was not doing it for them, but so many people seem to be trying to import Royals. The most available snake in the UK! Seems mental, everything I have imported so far has been unobtainable in the UK, I think some of them are the only privately owned ones in the country. That sort of thing is worth the effort.


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## peterson (Feb 28, 2018)

So, if I understand the above correctly, I can go to Hamm/Houten, buy reptiles I want to keep (not trade, so not for commercial purposes), and bring them in without paperwork, as long as they're non-Cites animals? Basically like it was before? Would you still declare them ath port of export and import, or no need for that?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Correct. For non commercial non CITES reptiles and amphibians you can bring them back without paerwork and there is no requirement to declare them. The same as before Brexit.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> You do NOT need a vet certificate.
> And don't even think about smuggling - Border Force are fully aware of dates of shows, and methods used to smuggle animals in. You end up with a criminal record, potentially prison time, and your animals seized.
> The UK permit is around £70.
> CITES has nothing to do with protecting native wildlife from invasive species. It is an international treaty with over 170 countries signed up to it to ensure that trade in wildlife is conducted in a sustainable manner.
> Ultimately, most of what you can buy in the EU is also available in the UK. There is some strange obsession with royal keepers that only the best come from the EU. And while some may be cheaper, by the time you factor in the costs of the permits and then either your travel there and back, or a courier, you'll be better off sourcing the same snake from a UK breeder.


I have been, and I have seen. Fact is that on some routes back to the UK the volume and quality of import checks, on all goods being brought back to the UK, is lax and grossly under staffed to non-existent. I would be amazed if sticking animals in pockets and personal luggage has not already been practiced by quite a few.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

harry python said:


> I have been, and I have seen. Fact is that on some routes back to the UK the volume and quality of import checks, on all goods being brought back to the UK, is lax and grossly under staffed to non-existent. I would be amazed if sticking animals in pockets and personal luggage has not already been practiced by quite a few.


What a helpful post 😔


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> What a helpful post 😔


You might like it but it is fact. Border force are stretched beyond breaking point. Quite apart from the daily Channel crossings they can't even get a handle on cheap under counter Belgian **** that are available across the whole of the UK.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

If interested in bringing back herps from the EU my advice is to stick to non cites listed. Just returned from Sundays show in Houten with a few snakes and nil problem coming through customs at Harwich who had no staff on duty to check any of the vehicles that disembarked from the ferry.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

peterson said:


> So, if I understand the above correctly, I can go to Hamm/Houten, buy reptiles I want to keep (not trade, so not for commercial purposes), and bring them in without paperwork, as long as they're non-Cites animals? Basically like it was before? Would you still declare them ath port of export and import, or no need for that?


Yes that is correct.

Though it is worth requesting/making a certificate of origin: Just the name and the address of who the animals came from, then who they are going to, the species, age, quantity and origin (eg. CB in Germany). This should have been done before brexit as well, so as Colin said there have been no changes.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Be aware that Appendix III has recently been updated with new species.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

LiasisUK said:


> Yes that is correct.
> 
> Though it is worth requesting/making a certificate of origin: Just the name and the address of who the animals came from, then who they are going to, the species, age, quantity and origin (eg. CB in Germany). This should have been done before brexit as well, so as Colin said there have been no changes.


You need some paperwork. If you transport them with without paperwork you risk them being confused as cites by customs resulting in a lengthy delay and possible seizure. Most of the Europeans usually provide some paperwork for all sales. I also have my own proforma I get them to sign to confirm captive bred and good health. Going to Houten for what I bring back I also include on the proforma that they have been mandatory vet checked when gaining entry at the show. I have brought back animals twice through Harwich since shows got back up and running and under the new rules and been waved through both times by customs.


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## harry python (Sep 21, 2015)

ian14 said:


> Be aware that Appendix III has recently been updated with new species.


any notable additions?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

harry python said:


> any notable additions?


The only non avian animal species that has so far been updated on the CITES site is _Caribena versicolor._
However the conference reports state that a number of turtle and frog species have been added.


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