# Pet Shop Kittens!



## diverfi (Jun 23, 2008)

My daughter and I went into a pet shop in Grantham yesterday and were horrified to find a cage containing several moggy kittens for sale. We didn't think it was legal to have kittens/puppies for sale in UK petshops and politely asked the owner if it was legal. She was quite rude and told us that she had a licence which cost her £1000 in order to sell kittens. They ranged in price from £25 - £85 dependent on their colouration. She then told us not to touch the kittens because they were not innoculated, but had her dog running around the shop (nipping peoples ankles because it had a bone!)
Ok, maybe it is the case that you can get a licence to trade these animals...BUT, these kittens were only 6 weeks old, of 2 different litters and already taken from their mothers. Does anyone think this is right?? I was under the illusion that kittens and puppies should not be taken from their mothers until 12 weeks, even if they are weaned. Certainly in the case of the kittens, their socialisation/litter training skills etc must be suffering by being taken from the mother so young?
We were both shocked and left the pet shop feeling very upset. I'd be interested if anybody knows the law on this and what they think of it?
Fi :cussing:


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## dave28 (Jun 19, 2008)

*kittens for sale*

sussex reptiles in crawley sells kittens aswell from 50 pound to 120pound.


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Yep, selling puppies and kittens is 100% legal if you have them on your pet shop license. 

The pet shop licenses state that mammals 'must not be sold unweaned' - however, this will likely only take into account the age at which they can support themselves (i.e. eat on their own etc.) rather than including the 'socialising' stages which occur later.

No, I don't think it's right that they are being sold so young, but unfortunately the law can be interpreted in ways which do allow it.

ETA: You would have to check with the local council for their specific pet shop license conditions - some specifically state that separate litters of puppies and kittens must be kept apart.


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

Kittens can leav ther mum as early as 6weeks minimum! and with pups it should be 8weeks minimum!

i do not really agree with pet shops selling cat and dog due to the fact they should not be caged and plus you do not no wer they came form!

Josh


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I totally agree that petshops shouldnt be allowed to sell puppys or kittens. It is so upsetting to see them and when they mix them it means the plainest biggest kitten/puppy is always left behind? Years ago this is what happened in a Petshop in Liverpool. I went in week in week out and still this Blk/wht kitten was there, sat amongst pretty little coloured kittens. I felt so sorry that we haggled the price down and bought him.Mog lived with us for 14 years and until the day he died he used to wee everywhere. This is why petshops sell them its because people like me feel sorry for these little babies and buy them


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

its to do with there local council, if they allow it, its fine, our local council does not allow it in this area, but a few miles away in telford they are allowed to sell kittens.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

browner93 said:


> Kittens can leav ther mum as early as 6weeks minimum! and with pups it should be 8weeks minimum!
> 
> i do not really agree with pet shops selling cat and dog due to the fact they should not be caged and plus you do not no wer they came form!
> 
> Josh


Just because kittens *can* leave their mum at 6 weeks doesn't mean they *should!!*

I'm sorry but imao no kitten or puppy should be taken away from their mother before the age of 8 weeks and the later the better for them!

Diverfi is absolutely right - their socialisation skills certainly will suffer from being taken away from their mother when they are too young! Litter training can also suffer, but mainly kittens need to be taught how to be cats and how to behave and their mother teaches them that. If they are taken away from their mother at too young an age they become too humanised and can develop problems.

Diverfi I absolutely agree with you - I would have been mega upset and would also have left the shop feeling kinda helpless about not being able to do something!


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

feorag said:


> Just because kittens *can* leave their mum at 6 weeks doesn't mean they *should!!*
> 
> I'm sorry but imao no kitten or puppy should be taken away from their mother before the age of 8 weeks and the later the better for them!
> 
> ...


i said they could leav at that age MINIMUM i think some one needs to re read!

Josh


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

browner93 said:


> i said they could leav at that age MINIMUM i think some one needs to re read!
> 
> Josh


I can read and I did read, thank you very much! 

You said they *can *and I said just cos they can doesn't mean they should. What's wrong with that??


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## _spider-mad_ (Aug 13, 2008)

I dont think my cat would let me take her kittens at 6 weeks old, 
I remember going in to a local petshop and they was selling little black and white kittens for £75 each :bash:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I bred cats for 17 years and, having observed my queens over many litters, I can tell you that they were not ready to be parted from their kittens when the kittens were 6 or 8 weeks.

Pedigree cat breeders are not allowed to sell their kittens unvaccinated and so we don't sell ours until they are at least 13 weeks old. By that time the kittens are well socialised, well behaved and totally ready to go out into the world and their mothers are ready to have them leave.

In fact my queens never seemed to miss their kittens when they left us, but I know for a fact they would have if they'd been taken away at 6 or 8 weeks!


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

feorag said:


> I can read and I did read, thank you very much!
> 
> You said they *can *and I said just cos they can doesn't mean they should. What's wrong with that??


well they can be took away at 6weeks but did i say you should?
no i did not!

Josh


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Eileen was just stating that although they are weaned and can eat alone at 6 weeks doesnt mean it is right to rehome them then. Far better to be with mum as long as possible. Our Sanctuary kitts are NEVER homed before 9 1/2 weeks of age. This gives a little more time to learn from mum and to have the first vaccination. The large Cats Protection Shelters dont rehome until the kitts are fully vaccinated and are 13 weeks old. We have a few calls from people who are missing a cat as the owners rehomed the kitts at 6 weeks and mum has gone looking for them. Its very sad to see a distressed queen who is searching for her lost babies.This never happens if the kitts are older as mum gets naturally fed up of them


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

browner93 said:


> well they can be took away at 6weeks but did i say you should?
> no i did not!
> 
> Josh


Sorry, Josh, but you are missing my point!

You said "kittens can leave their mum as early as 6weeks minimum!" 

That statement on its own could easily imply to any member of this forum that this is acceptable and what I was saying is that it is not! 

In other words, you didn't say they should, but neither did you say they shouldn't! So I did!

That was not for your benefit or to criticise you, it was for the people reading after you to clarify the situation!


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

The trouble with selling puppies and kittens is that so many people would buy on impulse,use to have pet shop with large amounts of americans coming in and asking for both.I would be very well off if i had sold them but 99% would have been bought on a whim.


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## gnipper (Feb 13, 2007)

The pet shop next door to a blackpool rep shop was selling mongrels on sunday for £180, the jack russels had been sold for more than £200 and I bet they were just white mongrels too. Not on imo.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

animalsbeebee said:


> The trouble with selling puppies and kittens is that so many people would buy on impulse,use to have pet shop with large amounts of americans coming in and asking for both.I would be very well off if i had sold them but 99% would have been bought on a whim.


Absolutely agree! There's nothing cuter and more irresistable than a tiny kitten, especially if it's only 6 weeks old!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

don't suppose you asked why they were selling them that young?

i know somebody who bought a pup that was far too young to be seperated from its mum. Some chavvy idiot had bred his dog and decided it was too much hassle and was selling them or dumping them in the canal.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Hey Gnipper I know which petshop you mean.Last year they had a mongrel pup (no vaccs) for £150 he was in with a litter of JRT. If they had dropped the price we would have bought the mongrel but they wouldnt even though he had no vaccs. The pen they had them in was tiny and this pup was huge:devil: Cool Reptile shop a few doors up though


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

actually i know that shop as well.. went in last year after dropping the beardie off with Mark as i was going on holiday. Don't think they had any pups in but my mate wanted all the kittens and there was a couple of chinchillas and chipmonks in there.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I saw a litter of puppies in a big pet shop in Leeds. I dont think there is anything more depressing than seeing little puppies stick in a little glass cage with loads of snotty nosed brats banging on the glass. Depressed the **** out of me.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

sounds like you`ve been to the `living dead` Andy!

its changed hands again, might go up to leeds next week and see if the 
s:censor:t hole has improved!

just because a kitten can eat alone, dosnt mean they can leave home, moggies are sold far too young, barely eating independantly.

my kittens are weaned at 8 weeks, they have their first jab at 9 weeks, their second jab at 12 weeks and leave a week after.
so i have five weeks of the fluffies being socialised and checking they are progressing ok. people dont realise the time and money involved!

If you`re unhappy with a petshop, phone your local council and speak to the petshop licencing officer ( but be calm and factual ) and explain what the problem is.
plus get a couple of friends to do the same
then they will get a visit and be told to clean up their act, the council have the power to remove their licence.


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## medusa0373 (Mar 18, 2008)

I remember going into a pet shop in Ramsbottom a couple of years ago, and they had a tiny cage in a corner with 2 black kittens in it. There was no solid flooring on the bottom of the cage, so they were constantly slipping through the bars; they both had mucky eyes, with discharge in the corner, and they were both crawling with fleas. They were also tiny and really lethargic.  If you have to sell animals then there's no excuse, in this day and age, for not selling healthy animals.

It really upset me to see them being treated that way, and all for someone to make a profit. I think the owners should be put in a cage and kept the same way for a couple of weeks to see how it made them feel!


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## diverfi (Jun 23, 2008)

Thank you all for your responses... on the whole it seems that people agree with me that this shop is doing something that is legal, but morally reprehensible. The kittens were caged on the floor, with food, water and a litter tray (if they knew how to use it?) and I felt so sad for them and for the mothers who were probably desperately searching for their kits.
I think the attitude of the owner wound me up; she was very defensive when we queried the legality and yet these kits were not innoculated but in a shop with an aggressive dog running about, yet we couldn't even touch them had we been interested in purchasing them. :banghead:
I think I will phone the council and run it by them, though I doubt much will be done about it. Will keep posted.
Fi


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

sounds like they had cat flu and chlamydia,
shouldnt have been on sale and should be under a vet!

i cant believe that anyone would buy from a petshop, what happened to seeing the babies with the mother so you can see the temperament?


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## diverfi (Jun 23, 2008)

As I suspected... having reported the shop to the council, I have just received a phone call from the licensing officer. Basically, it is within the law to take the kittens from the mother as soon as they are weaned - there actually isn't a lower age limit for this to take place, hence the reason these kits are in there at just 6 weeks old. The licensing officer has inspected the shop and talked to the owner; she admitted that she has a pet dog, but lied by saying she never allows them to be in the shop when she has kittens for sale; the dog was running loose in the shop and nipping my daughter's ankles because it had a bone. It had full access to the non-innoculated kittens.
The licensing officer agreed with me that it is morally wrong to sell these kittens so young (both for the kittens and their mothers) but that the pet shop owner is keeping within the law.
I think it's utterly disgusting; no wonder there are so many puppy/cat farms in this country - this woman can just make her cat churn out litter after litter for profit, while the law condones it.
Fi


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## hullreptilelover (Mar 4, 2006)

As a pet shop we are allowed to sell puppies and kittens providing they are weaned and certain conditions are met... BUT, I would never stock them in our shop as I think it is wrong and people end up impulse buying without thinking about the pets long term..... Its just not fair on the animal


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## Slinkies mum (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm trying to think back to when I had my pet license. It may vary from council to council but in my case 1) litters must not be mixed 2) sell at between 6/8 wks but only if the kit is fully weaned 3) puppies must be provided with an exersize yard and there a whole lot of other rules and regs specific to dogs 4) no animals should ever be displayed in the window. And should be away from busy areas in the shop 5) care sheets should be provied for every type of animal
I never sold puppies I agree 200% that they should not be in cages. I sold kittens occaisonally but never in a cage. Always kept them in the office with food toys etc and only brought them out for serious buyers. Always took them home on a night.
I always used to be so careful with my charges and shops like mentioned here made my blood boil.
As for the £1000 license to sell kittens thats a load of b******s
If she's got mixed litters together try reporting her see what happens, think pet shops fall under environmental at the council but ring general enquiries for the no.
I'll look to see if I have an old license and print the conditions on here might be useful for future reference


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## diverfi (Jun 23, 2008)

Yes, there were definitely 2 litters in the cage, on the floor in a tiny shop, with a dog running around. The problem is that the pet licensing guy has already visited (apparently he also spoke to the :censor: useless RSPCA who said as long as they were over 6 weeks it was ok....) and he said that she is within the law. So nothing more can be done about it. Except recommend that nobody uses Ace Pet Stores on Welby Street in Grantham. 
Frustrating really, but the law helps perpetuate this sort of kitten farming. 
Fi


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

I think its so stupid, my local pet shop sells them for around £100 each. Anyone could pop down to battersea dogs home and get one for way less and actually helping out an animal. I think the sale of cats and dogs in pet shops should be stopped as there are enough in shelters all over the country.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

At our Sanctuary we ask for a Donation of £70.00. The kitten has been bloodtested to check for Felv/Fiv has been microchipped is vaccinated and wormed and deflead up to date, it has also been vetchecked goes out with 6 weeks free pet insurance and as much advice and information as you want. We give out a voucher for reduced cost neutering too.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Shell that is absolutely brilliant - to do all that and only charge £70 - that is one fair deal!!! :2thumb:

A lot of people don't realise that by the time you've done all that blood testing, worm and flea treatment and vaccination a non-pedigree kitten doesn't work out much cheaper than a pedigree which has had all that done as a matter of course before it leaves the breeders.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

You would be amazed at the amount of people who say Im not paying that for just a Moggy.These people we wouldnt want to home to anyway as they would be to mean to pay for any vet treatment. With the adults it is the same donation but anything from 5 months old is neutered at our cost before it leaves(we also do home visits too) I think its a bargain too.:2thumb: For anyone interested here is a link to our Sanctuary http://animalsanctuary.org.uk/


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## groovy chick (Aug 1, 2006)

I was at The Reptile Room in Blackpool a few weeks ago and nipped into the pet shop next door to get some small dishes. Nipped through the back cause i could hear birds and was shocked to see a little kitten sitting in a cage all by itself No tray and poo on its back legs  If thats not bad enough i walked up a bit to look in some pens and there was puppies aswell  It was so sad  Not one of the little dogs was acting like normal puppies do. Im still not sure how we came home and left the little kitten behind


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

We were talking about this shop earlier in the thread.Ive been and its horrible, they shouldnt be allowed to sell pups and kitts.


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## emmawalker (Aug 7, 2009)

*kitten*

im selling a 13 week old black and white female kitten as my son is to rough with her free collection only im in chesterfield


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think it's sad that there's puppies and kittens available in pet shops. But I dont understand why people dont get as upset about the hamsters, rats, mice, guinea pigs....etc.

IMO a good pet shop is one that doesn't sell any animals.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

emmawalker said:


> im selling a 13 week old black and white female kitten as my son is to rough with her free collection only im in chesterfield


You might have better luck finding a home for this kitten if you put it in the classified section.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

If you are concerned you should contact the local council and ask to speak to the local Licensing Officer for that area. Although the general national rule is minimum 6 weeks, some local councils will impose a higher minimum age if they are educated about the socialising period after weaning. Worth a try I suppose.

ETO
emmawalker, as feorag said that should be in classifieds, but I have to say I think that attitude is rather silly. You should teach your son not to be rough with the kitten, otherwise how will he know any different in future? Are you sure that is the honest reason for rehoming the kitten?


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

mattm said:


> If you are concerned you should contact the local council and ask to speak to the local Licensing Officer for that area. Although the general national rule is minimum 6 weeks, some local councils will impose a higher minimum age if they are educated about the socialising period after weaning. Worth a try I suppose.
> 
> ETO
> *emmawalker, as feorag said that should be in classifieds, but I have to say I think that attitude is rather silly. You should teach your son not to be rough with the kitten, otherwise how will he know any different in future? Are you sure that is the honest reason for rehoming the kitten?*


I think Emma might have tried to teach him but out of concern for the kitten she is re-homing him? just a guess, obviously I don't know this woman.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Rehome the son (or at least train him).:lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

browner93 said:


> Kittens can leav ther mum as early as 6weeks minimum! and with pups it should be 8weeks minimum!
> 
> i do not really agree with pet shops selling cat and dog due to the fact they should not be caged and plus you do not no wer they came form!
> 
> Josh


 Kittens should leave their mum at 10 weeks minimum and puppies 8 weeks minimum actually.
If people stopped buying puppies and kittens at pet shops, then they'd stop stocking them.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

browner93 said:


> well they can be took away at 6weeks but did i say you should?
> no i did not!
> 
> Josh


 You really need to learn some manners. You are coming across as aggressive and rude.


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## becki_moorcroft (Jul 13, 2009)

its legal, but personally i dont agree with it... but then are cats/dogs so different for rabbits, who can live just as long and often have more specialist care and are well known to suffer weaning problems if stressed at that age, i think its always best to go direct to a breeder for any pet


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

diverfi said:


> As I suspected... having reported the shop to the council, I have just received a phone call from the licensing officer. Basically, it is within the law to take the kittens from the mother as soon as they are weaned - there actually isn't a lower age limit for this to take place, hence the reason these kits are in there at just 6 weeks old. The licensing officer has inspected the shop and talked to the owner; she admitted that she has a pet dog, but lied by saying she never allows them to be in the shop when she has kittens for sale; the dog was running loose in the shop and nipping my daughter's ankles because it had a bone. It had full access to the non-innoculated kittens.
> The licensing officer agreed with me that it is morally wrong to sell these kittens so young (both for the kittens and their mothers) but that the pet shop owner is keeping within the law.
> I think it's utterly disgusting; no wonder there are so many puppy/cat farms in this country - this woman can just make her cat churn out litter after litter for profit, while the law condones it.
> Fi


The licencing officer is well within his rights to say that he won't allow the sale of puppies and kittens. When I had my shop, the office for Spalding area refused to let any shop sell puppies or kittens. Not that I would, but we had a long conversation and the ethics of selling live animals in shops.
So if the shop in Grantham is selling them, the officer has allowed it when he could have refused.
If the dog bit your child, why didn't you call the police to report it? Have you a camrea phone to take pics of the dog running near the kittens?
Try a letter to your local paper saying that people should not buy from petshops.


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## squidgystar (Aug 5, 2009)

I think it's sad people want to buy kittens and pups from petshops at all... if you're looking for a pure bred with no history, go to a breeder where you can meet the parents and can see that the animals are well cared for to have the best possible start.

If you just want a standard moggy... it doesn't take a scientist to know how beneficial it is to give a poor rescue a home. At our rescue it's £45 for a fully vacced, flea treated, vet checked microchipped, neutered adult... for kittens they ask for £70 and give a £25 refund when you produce vet docs to say they have been neutered.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

groovy chick said:


> I was at The Reptile Room in Blackpool a few weeks ago and nipped into the pet shop next door to get some small dishes. Nipped through the back cause i could hear birds and was shocked to see a little kitten sitting in a cage all by itself No tray and poo on its back legs  If thats not bad enough i walked up a bit to look in some pens and there was puppies aswell  It was so sad  Not one of the little dogs was acting like normal puppies do. Im still not sure how we came home and left the little kitten behind


 But hopefully you immediately phone the pet shop licencing officer to report the state of the kitten? Do you have a camera on your phone to take pics with?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

becki_moorcroft said:


> its legal, but personally i dont agree with it... but then are cats/dogs so different for rabbits, who can live just as long and often have more specialist care and are well known to suffer weaning problems if stressed at that age, i think its always best to go direct to a breeder for any pet


 If your cats and dogs only live as long as the average rabbit, then I think you should not keep cats and dogs.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:lol2: I thought that too! :2thumb:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> But hopefully you immediately phone the pet shop licencing officer to report the state of the kitten? Do you have a camera on your phone to take pics with?


 
she's probably forgot what she did as it was over a year ago


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## daftlassieEmma (Oct 23, 2008)

Meko said:


> she's probably forgot what she did as it was over a year ago


 aaaahahaha! that's cheered me right up :roll2:


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## becki_moorcroft (Jul 13, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> If your cats and dogs only live as long as the average rabbit, then I think you should not keep cats and dogs.


i'm afraid that a rabbit life span can vary alot english rabbits average around 12 years... sables and smokes (my chosen breed) have reached 14 in pet homes (but as most are bred for meat not many reach full maturity, my oldest is currently only 5) and pure british giants (not continentals) regulary hit 16... which by my book are all comparable to dogs... i have a field spaniel whose average life expectancy is 12, so that is the same as my main rabbit breed

netherlands and mini lops only average at 5 being small rabbits but the normal sized ones live a lot longer than many people think,


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> she's probably forgot what she did as it was over a year ago


you think? Obviously she remembered the details of the kitten so I would imagine she remembers what she did about it.


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## CaptainGodzilla (Aug 9, 2009)

my local pet shop stocks kittens, in a wire cage on the floor, in front of the rabbit hutches, so close the kittens were scratching at the rabbit.

but all the ginger and black kittens sell quicky, and the black and white ones are always left in there for weeks on end. and the cage always smells :/

however, they also sell snakes and lizards, and im not an expert on snakes, but they where selling them in those tiny cages you keep crickets in.

i bought my hamster there out of pure pity, she was the only one left and she was going mad with bordem, everytime i went in she was at the side (of a tiny, plastic tank) deperatly chewing at it.

so, i honestly think pet shops should not be allowed to sell any live animal


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

If they were small baby snakes, yes it is common for them to be sold in those (and not necessarily cruel either, snakes suffer from stress quite a lot at that age and sometimes the pros outweigh the cons) most breeders use those too before homing hatchlings.

Captaingodzilla, did you report the pet shop in question? If it smelt bad that is obviously a sign of poor hygeine, and licensing officers are usually extremely strict when it comes to hygeine because it could affect the public aswell as the animals.

I know you think that by buying that Hamster you saved it, but unfortunately any money you give to such a shop keeps them in business and enables them to repeat the behaviour. That hamster you bought will be replaced with another. In fact more than one other when you think of the profit margins on live animals most pet shops have. Usually around a 100% profit margin in my experience!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

CaptainGodzilla said:


> however, they also sell snakes and lizards, and im not an expert on snakes, but they where selling them in those tiny cages you keep crickets in.


quite a lot of places keep hatchlings in them


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## Dizz (Mar 29, 2009)

Personally I don't think petshops should sell pets FULL STOP.

I think it should be reputable breeders only who can pass on knowledge and be a barrier to impulse buys. I wouldn't be adverse to reputable breeders of small animals/reps etc selling through their own shop, selling their own stock.

And yes, I have had LOTS of pets from shops in the past!!!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

We always get asked if we sell kittens! We don't. I refer people to the notice board or rescue centres, or if they want a Siamese or Oriental I refer them to a friend of mine

I'm quite shocked to see people dsaying they think pet shops should not be allowed to sell any live animal!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Why? Why should any less consideration go into homing small animals? Are they not as deserving of a good home as dogs/cats? What is your theory behind this - how do you make the distinction - size? Lifespan?

I wont ever sell my rats through a pet shop, as IMO you cant breed for health or temperament without knowing exactly where all your animals go and getting feedback from the owners regularly throughout their lives. You cant make informed decisions about your future breeding plans without knowing exactly what your litters are predisposed to - eg. if you sell half your litter through a pet shop, who's to say that half a litter didn't all die of cancer at a young age, or end up hormonal and unsound? How could you choose whether to continue your line if you didn't know these things?

As most pet shops wont pass on breeders details, let alone take those of the new owner, I dont think any animal (other than live food eg locusts!) should be sold in pet shops. I also dont think it's fair on the animal for their "breeder" to dump them in a pet shop and swap them for some food or a favour in the future - it gives bad "breeders" an easy cop out.


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## CaptainGodzilla (Aug 9, 2009)

mattm said:


> If they were small baby snakes, yes it is common for them to be sold in those (and not necessarily cruel either, snakes suffer from stress quite a lot at that age and sometimes the pros outweigh the cons) most breeders use those too before homing hatchlings.
> 
> Captaingodzilla, did you report the pet shop in question? If it smelt bad that is obviously a sign of poor hygeine, and licensing officers are usually extremely strict when it comes to hygeine because it could affect the public aswell as the animals.
> 
> I know you think that by buying that Hamster you saved it, but unfortunately any money you give to such a shop keeps them in business and enables them to repeat the behaviour. That hamster you bought will be replaced with another. In fact more than one other when you think of the profit margins on live animals most pet shops have. Usually around a 100% profit margin in my experience!




alas. i am but a child, not a chance id get lisend to.

however, my mum has complained many times, nothing seems to be done aout it :/

and thats put my mind at rest about the snakes thanks!


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

Well at least your mum has done all she can .



> I'm quite shocked to see people dsaying they think pet shops should not be allowed to sell any live animal!


I think it's very subjective. Do you breed all of your own animals for your shop or do you use suppliers? Where you use suppliers for "livestock" are they mass producers or small friends that you know have very good standards of care and ethics? If so then I have no problem with you selling your animals through a shop. There is no reason this would be any different to selling animals from your home if you followed the same homing procedure.

I think there are many reasons an increasing number of people do not want to see live animals in shops. The standard of care/welfare the animals receive (if you just look back through this thread you can see it is not uncommon!), the lack of knowledge the staff or owners/managers seem to have, the origin of animals and the state/conditions of where they were bred etc. The majority of pet shops are guilty of at least one of those. And of course as LisaLQ said it would be very hard to maintain a "line" if homing through a pet shop, although I suppose this would be possibe if you, the owner, bred the animals yourself and keep in contact with everyone you sell too for updates on progress etc.


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## CaptainGodzilla (Aug 9, 2009)

yeah 

i feel a right newb now

"my mummy......" lol.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mattm said:


> Well at least your mum has done all she can .
> 
> I think it's very subjective. Do you breed all of your own animals for your shop or do you use suppliers? Where you use suppliers for "livestock" are they mass producers or small friends that you know have very good standards of care and ethics? If so then I have no problem with you selling your animals through a shop. There is no reason this would be any different to selling animals from your home if you followed the same homing procedure.
> 
> I think there are many reasons an increasing number of people do not want to see live animals in shops. The standard of care/welfare the animals receive (if you just look back through this thread you can see it is not uncommon!), the lack of knowledge the staff or owners/managers seem to have, the origin of animals and the state/conditions of where they were bred etc. The majority of pet shops are guilty of at least one of those. And of course as LisaLQ said it would be very hard to maintain a "line" if homing through a pet shop, although I suppose this would be possibe if you, the owner, bred the animals yourself and keep in contact with everyone you sell too for updates on progress etc.


The only animals I sell that I obtain from a 'supplier' are fish. Our rabbits, rodents, birds, reptiles, amphibians & inverts are all from local breeders, whom we have good relationships with.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

But do the owners get the benefits of that good relationship? Do they keep in touch with the breeder(s)? Or vice versa? Are homes vetted in any way?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

In normal circumstances, the new owners do not have contact with the breeders. New owners are given information to prepare them for life with their new pet, are given care sheets, told of the local veterinary services, reptiles & parrots are sold with 30 days free insurance, & of course we are always on the other end of the phone or in the shop if further questions pop up.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> But do the owners get the benefits of that good relationship? Do they keep in touch with the breeder(s)? Or vice versa? Are homes vetted in any way?


With all due respect, even when breeders sell animals, vet prospective buyers and are 100% happy with the home, they cannot guarantee that every person who buys an animal from them will stay in touch.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

feorag said:


> With all due respect, even when breeders sell animals, vet prospective buyers and are 100% happy with the home, they cannot guarantee that every person who buys an animal from them will stay in touch.


Thats true Eileen!

At least with pet shops, the majority of owners who but their pet there will return for food & other supplies, so we can ask after their pets.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

I wont even buy items/products from pet shops that sells animals much less a live animal!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> I wont even buy items/products from pet shops that sells animals much less a live animal!


Wow, thats even more extreme than LisaQ's :lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Wow, thats even more extreme than LisaQ's :lol2:


Not extreme, I just don't like supporting impulse buys or inhumane conditions. Each to their own.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Not extreme, I just don't like supporting impulse buys or inhumane conditions. Each to their own.


But not all pet shops are dependant on impulse buys or keep animals in inhumane conditions


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> Not extreme, I just don't like supporting impulse buys or inhumane conditions. Each to their own.


Not every animal that is bought in a pet shop is an impulse buy, you cannot make sweeping statements like that unless you've asked every person who has ever bought a pet in a pet shop! 

And not every pet shop keeps their animals in inhumane conditions! Yes, some do, but again you can't tar every shop with the same brush!


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

No not all, but the majority. Many pet shops will not reveal the source of their animals and that to me is a concern. If any of your customers wanted to know this would you tell them, or would you worry that this could be sending a future sale directly to the breeder??

I suppose in your case it is not so bad. You say you use local breeders that you have relationships with, have you seen the setups and the kind of conditions they breed and keep the animals in before you buy them for the store? Do you know what care they get before they come to you? Do they keep them as pets or as a business?

I totally understand that the creation and maintainance of a "line" when breeding animals is not always possible. This is what serious breeders do that generally, all be it stereotypically, do not breed for pet shops. Sometimes you have to be satisfied with a breeder providing a good standard of care and ethics, keeping animals in ideal conditions, only breeding from healthy animals and monitoring *what and as much as they can* of any relatives or young produced. I would say more times than not this can lead to "good" animals being produced. Although you do really need to rely on hybrid vigor and not linebreeding - inbreeding without the intention of a line is dangerous.

It is all very well for a pet shop to think they are doing well because the customers are happy and never complain etc. But often this is down to lack of education on the customers' part. Not many people understand that the animals sitting in that shop could come from a bad place. It doesn't cross your mind until you are educated on it. And that's why many people that now do not support live animals being sold through them, were once guilty of doing so. If a pet shop doesn't support mass producing of animals or BYB's, then they should make that clear to all customers and should tell them where the animals are from. I can see this becoming an issue in the future actually - just like more and more people want to know the origin of their food! And who can blame them.

Not all pet shops are good and not all are bad, but how can I determine what is a good one and what isn't??? I can't just by looking. A lot happens behind the scenes. So that is why many people will stop supporting it all together I think!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mattm said:


> No not all, but the majority. Many pet shops will not reveal the source of their animals and that to me is a concern. If any of your customers wanted to know this would you tell them, or would you worry that this could be sending a future sale directly to the breeder??
> 
> I suppose in your case it is not so bad. You say you use local breeders that you have relationships with, have you seen the setups and the kind of conditions they breed and keep the animals in before you buy them for the store? Do you know what care they get before they come to you? Do they keep them as pets or as a business?
> 
> ...


I am more than happy to tell my customers where the animals they may buy came from, obviously without divulging breeders contacts without first asking their permission. I have seen most, but not all, of my breeders set-ups & am very happy with them. 

I know what you mean about many shops not being keen on telling customers where their pet came from - e.g. Pets At Home & their rabbit & rodent farms!


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

feorag said:


> Not every animal that is bought in a pet shop is an impulse buy, you cannot make sweeping statements like that unless you've asked every person who has ever bought a pet in a pet shop!
> 
> And not every pet shop keeps their animals in inhumane conditions! Yes, some do, but again you can't tar every shop with the same brush!


It's a link in the chain reaction. One petshop might not sell to the kid screaming and kicking "I WANT A RABBIT!!" but Joe down the road more then likely will. 
Nor did I tar everyone in with the same brush, but again it's a link in the chain reaction.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

> I know what you mean about many shops not being keen on telling customers where their pet came from - e.g. Pets At Home & their rabbit & rodent farms!


True, but it's not just chain stores that are to blame. [email protected] lie through their teeth though - if you do happen to ask where the animals come from, they'll tell you "local breeders" which is not true. I had to do a work placement at the Companion Care Vets inside [email protected] and the amount of animals they get in for euthanasia (from the shop, on delivery day) was disgusting - from Rabbits with genetic deformaties to hamsters with eye infections that the shop staff could not be bothered to treat as it "bit" them, so PTS was the answer.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mattm said:


> No not all, but the majority. Many pet shops will not reveal the source of their animals and that to me is a concern. If any of your customers wanted to know this would you tell them, or would you worry that this could be sending a future sale directly to the breeder??
> 
> I suppose in your case it is not so bad. You say you use local breeders that you have relationships with, have you seen the setups and the kind of conditions they breed and keep the animals in before you buy them for the store? Do you know what care they get before they come to you? Do they keep them as pets or as a business?
> 
> ...



The issue might be one of confidentiality and data protection. Also, who would know is the asker wasn't an ALF nutcase? If I bred pets for pet shops, I'm not sure I'd want my name and address to be given out to any random stranger who asks for it.


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## joe1504 (May 20, 2009)

i visited a pet shop in mid wales that will buy kittens from 6 weeks put then put them in with an adult female cat


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

mattm said:


> True, but it's not just chain stores that are to blame. [email protected] lie through their teeth though - if you do happen to ask where the animals come from, they'll tell you "local breeders" which is not true. I had to do a work placement at the Companion Care Vets inside [email protected] and the amount of animals they get in for euthanasia (from the shop, on delivery day) was disgusting - from Rabbits with genetic deformaties to hamsters with eye infections that the shop staff could not be bothered to treat as it "bit" them, so PTS was the answer.


That doesn't suprise me at all. I worked at my local PAH for 5 years when I left college, & in the end it was the attitude of the people at head office livestock department which made me think "screw this".


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> The issue might be one of confidentiality and data protection. Also, who would know is the asker wasn't an ALF nutcase? If I bred pets for pet shops, I'm not sure I'd want my name and address to be given out to any random stranger who asks for it.


Thats very true! Most of teh breeders I use aren't keen on dealing with members of the public like that.


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## etsbuddy (Aug 16, 2009)

ive been into a petshop today who had a gorgeous little pure white kitten in a cage in the middle of the shop for sale for £150, it had a sign on it saying "please dont touch the kitten or take photographs due to it not being vaccinated and you could pass on desease". Im confused as to how taking photos would cause desease, more like it would create proof to pass onto the council. These people annoy me.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

etsbuddy said:


> ive been into a petshop today who had a gorgeous little pure white kitten in a cage in the middle of the shop for sale for £150, it had a sign on it saying "please dont touch the kitten or take photographs due to it not being vaccinated and you could pass on desease". Im confused as to how taking photos would cause desease, more like it would create proof to pass onto the council. These people annoy me.


 Proof of what?


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## etsbuddy (Aug 16, 2009)

proof that the kitten was in a tiny cage on its own in the middle of a busy pet shop. Im sure even if the shop has got a licence to sell them, they are expected to keep them in better conditions.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

etsbuddy said:


> proof that the kitten was in a tiny cage on its own in the middle of a busy pet shop. Im sure even if the shop has got a licence to sell them, they are expected to keep them in better conditions.


 If it has food, water and a litter tray and is able to sleep, that's all that is required.If the shop is busy, no doubt the kitten will get sold soon.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Thats very true! Most of teh breeders I use aren't keen on dealing with members of the public like that.


Which is the whole point of vetting homes. Whereas a pet shop will hand out animals to any paying customer without any vetting, a responsible breeder will take their name, address, phone number, and meet them at least once before they even get their animals.

I wouldn't home to anyone I wasn't 100% certain about. Yep - I've had one set of rats returned, but they came back - and all the rest of my owners are what I'd class as friends now!

You dont get that level of commitment from a pet shop. Once the money has changed hands, the owners dont know how their rats were bred, who their breeder was, what conditions they were raised in and dont get any back up. Who's to say they wont do their shopping online, or move away, and you'd never hear from them again - you wouldn't know if your rats were healthy, or staying tame, or had behavioural issues etc.

IMO no pet shop that sells animals is a good pet shop, and I would fully support a live animal sales ban. IMO any breeder who isn't willing to hand out their contact details to people that buy their animals is an irresponsible breeder. You might think their set up is ok, but that's because you're profiting from it!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> If it has food, water and a litter tray and is able to sleep, that's all that is required.If the shop is busy, no doubt the kitten will get sold soon.


Crikey, what a caring response. Probably sold to some numbnuts who'll sell it on when he/she gets bored, or dump it somewhere. Happy days!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Crikey, what a caring response. Probably sold to some numbnuts who'll sell it on when he/she gets bored, or dump it somewhere. Happy days!


 What should I have said. I stated what the legal requirements were and said that he'd get sold soon. Should I have said:
_awww what a shame, poor widdle pussy wussy. Spring lambs leaping and pwetty flowers and daisy chains fwuffy cwouds wafting past and nasty nasty pet shop owner making the pwetty fwuffy titten sit in a nasty cagey wagey.

_Would that have made it caring enough for you?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Crikey, what a caring response.


I thought she was just stating the facts to the guy who thought that a photograph of the kitten in a pen would get a result if it was reported.

We all know it wouldn't so what's the problem???


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> What should I have said. I stated what the legal requirements were and said that he'd get sold soon. Should I have said:
> _awww what a shame, poor widdle pussy wussy. Spring lambs leaping and pwetty flowers and daisy chains fwuffy cwouds wafting past and nasty nasty pet shop owner making the pwetty fwuffy titten sit in a nasty cagey wagey._
> 
> Would that have made it caring enough for you?


That's right, if someone doesn't agree with you, that makes them fluffy does it?

Sheesh, grow up.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Which is the whole point of vetting homes. Whereas a pet shop will hand out animals to any paying customer without any vetting, a responsible breeder will take their name, address, phone number, and meet them at least once before they even get their animals.
> 
> I wouldn't home to anyone I wasn't 100% certain about. Yep - I've had one set of rats returned, but they came back - and all the rest of my owners are what I'd class as friends now!
> 
> ...


Trust me, if I didn't think a breeders set-up was good, I would not buy animals from them, no matter how cheap they were! You only have to look at Pets At Home for many examples of this - mass produced rabbits bought in bulk for pittance, seen with numerous health problems when they arrive in-store!

The vast majority of customers who buy animals from us do come back for supplies, advice & to bring their friends & relatives when they recommend us. My memory is sieve-like at the best of times, so when people come in & say to me "Oh he's doing really well!" I normally have to give it a minute for the penny to drop & remember what aniaml they bought. :lol2:


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## rhiannan (Sep 28, 2010)

I feel really sorry for the kittens which have to stay in cages in pet shops! I was looking at buying a kitten from a local breeder so i popped into my local petshop to buy a bed and toys etc and found they was selling the 3 gorgeous kittens in a glass tank, they hardly had room to move about.
I always told myself id never buy from a petshop because i think its wrong to sell them at a petshop but anyway i ended up buyin one being the soppy person i am i felt id rather give one of them a good home than to take a kitten thats still with the breeder in a nice environment. The man in the shop told me the kitten was 7 weeks old so 3 weeks later i took it to the vets to get her first lot of injections which to my surpise the vet told me that the kitten was most definatly not 10 weeks old she was only 8 weeks old (she could tell by her weight and teeth growth) which ment when i brought her she was only 5 weeks old! Just makes me sick that kittens are bein sold that young the man at the shop said told me hed had the kittens for 1 week which would of made them 4 weeks when they bwas taken away from there mother! luckily so far my kitten is getting on fine and ive had no problems with her just hope she doesnt devolp any behavioral problems in the future


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

rhiannan said:


> I feel really sorry for the kittens which have to stay in cages in pet shops! I was looking at buying a kitten from a local breeder so i popped into my local petshop to buy a bed and toys etc and found they was selling the 3 gorgeous kittens in a glass tank, they hardly had room to move about.
> I always told myself id never buy from a petshop because i think its wrong to sell them at a petshop but anyway i ended up buyin one being the soppy person i am i felt id rather give one of them a good home than to take a kitten thats still with the breeder in a nice environment. The man in the shop told me the kitten was 7 weeks old so 3 weeks later i took it to the vets to get her first lot of injections which to my surpise the vet told me that the kitten was most definatly not 10 weeks old she was only 8 weeks old (she could tell by her weight and teeth growth) which ment when i brought her she was only 5 weeks old! Just makes me sick that kittens are bein sold that young the man at the shop said told me hed had the kittens for 1 week which would of made them 4 weeks when they bwas taken away from there mother! luckily so far my kitten is getting on fine and ive had no problems with her just hope she doesnt devolp any behavioral problems in the future


 and because you bought a kitten, the pet shop owner knows he has a good selling line and will ensure that he gets more underage kittens in stock. If everyone simply didn't buy them, he'd not get any more in :bash:


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## rhiannan (Sep 28, 2010)

^^^^Pfftt reading previous comments from you on this thread it seems likes someones got a bad attitude problem!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

rhiannan said:


> ^^^^Pfftt reading previous comments from you on this thread it seems likes someones got a bad attitude problem!


 
But its true, pet shop owners get in what they can sell so if people didnt buy them the petshop wouldnt get any more in


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## *mogwai* (Feb 18, 2008)

tis all true. why shouldn't the pet shop get kittens in that are too young and put them in a tiny enclosure when he knows he can sell them quick enough to people who fell sorry for them.


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## diamondlil (May 7, 2008)

rhiannan said:


> I feel really sorry for the kittens which have to stay in cages in pet shops! I was looking at buying a kitten from a local breeder so i popped into my local petshop to buy a bed and toys etc and found they was selling the 3 gorgeous kittens in a glass tank, they hardly had room to move about.
> I always told myself id never buy from a petshop because i think its wrong to sell them at a petshop but anyway i ended up buyin one being the soppy person i am i felt id rather give one of them a good home than to take a kitten thats still with the breeder in a nice environment. The man in the shop told me the kitten was 7 weeks old so 3 weeks later i took it to the vets to get her first lot of injections which to my surpise the vet told me that the kitten was most definatly not 10 weeks old she was only 8 weeks old (she could tell by her weight and teeth growth) which ment when i brought her she was only 5 weeks old! Just makes me sick that kittens are bein sold that young the man at the shop said told me hed had the kittens for 1 week which would of made them 4 weeks when they bwas taken away from there mother! luckily so far my kitten is getting on fine and ive had no problems with her just hope she doesnt devolp any behavioral problems in the future


I understand why you felt sorry for that kitten, but the profit from selling it will just be spent on more kittens to go in the shop! By buying it you are supporting the trade in kittens from petshops.


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

tis very true. say he buys a kitten for £20, sells it for £40 and sells its fast cos someone felt so sorry for it. he either get another kitten to replace the one you bought and pockets £20 or he buys another two with the money cos they went so well. you can't buy cos you feel sorry for them. your just funding even more


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