# chahoua x crested hybrid?



## emmilllyyy (Oct 9, 2010)

i was searching other forums and i found a post of a crested x chahoua for sale. i think hes gorgeous personally. i was curious, do you believe breeding different species like this is wrong, why? have you seen any other hybrids?

ill attach photos from pangea forums in a minute, all rights are Kris S' from there


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

emmilllyyy said:


> i was searching other forums and i found a post of a crested x chahoua for sale. i think hes gorgeous personally. i was curious, do you believe breeding different species like this is wrong, why? have you seen any other hybrids?
> 
> ill attach photos from pangea forums in a minute, all rights are Kris S' from there
> 
> ...


I don't agree with it no, while it is better than breeding subspecies though as you kind of KNOW you're getting a hybrid instead of two mixed up subspecies which can sometimes be hard to tell apart.
I just don't really see the point in it really other than to satisfy someones curiosity regarding whether it can be done or not and to say I did it first and have a unique pet to show off.
Chahoua's are already 'rare' enough in captivity without wasting good females to breed to a Crested Gecko for some little experiment.


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## imitebmike (Jun 22, 2008)

I think its just a step too far xD morphs are enough  and with animals kept in captivity we have to strive to keep the blood line pure or we'd just have to keep resorting to getting more and more WC...or end up with a bunch of random hybrids...and who knows what kind of health problems could arise from such geckos


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

In this particular case, knowing the reasons behind the hybrid, I do not agree with it. They where basically breed to make a cresty that can not autotomy it's tail. So young are less likely to shed them, making it 'easier' to sell.

I was under the impression, when I first heard about the hybrid. That all offspring of the project where never to be sold. Could be wrong. It may have been the sarains hybrid.


Kris


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

I like hybrids snakes or geckos, and hes gorgeous :flrt: Ive thought about trying for crested gecko x gargoyle hybrids.

I can understand the whole "its not natural they wouldnt do it in the wild" but if they are compatable and from similar areas who really knows, given the chance they mate. Whos to say any species of animal is pure and not a hybrid that we just dont know the original parents of?


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

Krispy1984 said:


> In this particular case, knowing the reasons behind the hybrid, I do not agree with it. They where basically breed to make a cresty that can not autotomy is tail. So young are less likely to shed them, making it 'easier' to sell.
> 
> I was under them impression when I first heard about the hybrid that all offspring of the project where never to be sold. Could be wrong.
> 
> ...


I had no idea for the reason for breeding, i've heard a few stories of hybrid cresties with saras so they could regrow their tails but never this one, this is a worse reason than wanting to create something new looking, why change something that it has obviously evolved to be able to do :whip:
Can Chahoua's not go through autotomy then?


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## GlassWalker (Jun 15, 2011)

That specimen certainly looks nice.

Can someone compare this against other species so I have some reference of the level of genetic mixing we're talking about here? Is it like, for example, the production of savannah or bengal cats, or more along the lines of mules and ligers?


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## emmilllyyy (Oct 9, 2010)

the thing is though, i dont see things that are really shocking by doing this. as long as the produced animal is not bred from and just kept, whats really so bad about it? in the wild they do come from simliar places so what would stop them from producing in the wild? and i dont have a clue glasswalker, probably along the lines of ligers


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

Chris18 said:


> I had no idea for the reason for breeding, i've heard a few stories of hybrid cresties with saras so they could regrow their tails but never this one, this is a worse reason than wanting to create something new looking, why change something that it has obviously evolved to be able to do :whip:
> Can Chahoua's not go through autotomy then?



I had to double check, But yes, Chahoua can autotomic (?), but will regenerate it's tail. I can only presume that breeding was premeditated to this end. 

Whatever the reasons, I don't have a big issue with it, as long as the project continues to be self contained and not sold on to the general pubic.

Hybridisation can have it's benefits, which if the species is to receive the 'good end of the stick' I don't have much of a problem, but for things such as this, I really does make me feel blue.

Kris


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## LuLu (Aug 13, 2011)

*The photos of the above certainly is gorgeous! But i would be nicer if it were originally like that as a species, not a hybrid  *


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

emmilllyyy said:


> the thing is though, i dont see things that are really shocking by doing this. as long as the produced animal is not bred from and just kept, whats really so bad about it? in the wild they do come from simliar places so what would stop them from producing in the wild? and i dont have a clue glasswalker, probably along the lines of ligers


Can you really trust people to not try breed these though? I certainly don't.
Like I said, it was a waste of a female chahoua (assuming the chahoua was female, it makes it worse if the crested was the female) who could of been bred to a male chahoua to make a stunning reptile that bit more available in the hobby.
What's so bad about it is the reason Krispy stated, it was for selfish people who wanted to change what the crested gecko was designed to be able to do so they could make more money.
It may happen in the wild but this isn't the wild so that's a rubbish excuse.


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## E80 (Jul 25, 2010)

I like the colour and patterns on it. As long as it's not harming them I don't see a problem with creating hybrids.


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

I dont think theres issues as long as it causes no harm to the animal and emily can you please send me the link i would love to quiz the seller on a few questions i have for hybriders.


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## Junior13reptilez (Oct 17, 2010)

Very nice, I love R.Chahouas and Cresty hybrids they look awesome! If it's not doing any harm to either species there is absoloutley no problem with it in my eyes.


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

I love it and want one right now... I have no issues with it at all.

there are genetic barriers to stop interspecies breeding resulting in offspring, however if they can produce an offspring then fair dos, its mega cute and greatly coloured and in all fairness, cresties in the wild do not look anything like the ones you see for sale on here... extreme this and super that,, in yellow, red and orange.

This is a pet and therefore fine... its not like its going to be introduced into the wild to wrack havoc on the wild population is it!


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

ambyglam said:


> I love it and want one right now... I have no issues with it at all.
> 
> there are genetic barriers to stop interspecies breeding resulting in offspring, however if they can produce an offspring then fair dos, its mega cute and greatly coloured and in all fairness, cresties in the wild do not look anything like the ones you see for sale on here... extreme this and super that,, in yellow, red and orange.
> 
> This is a pet and therefore fine... its not like its going to be introduced into the wild to wrack havoc on the wild population is it!


 yes i want one too maybe we have to find someone in scotland that has two for sale =D


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## ambyglam (Nov 16, 2009)

MP reptiles said:


> yes i want one too maybe we have to find someone in scotland that has two for sale =D


or just make my own mwahahahahaa

watch while i now get shot down in flames... but I wont care cos i will have a chooestie... the cutest gecko in the universe!


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

ambyglam said:


> or just make my own mwahahahahaa
> 
> watch while i now get shot down in flames... but I wont care cos i will have a chooestie... the cutest gecko in the universe!


 lol to be honest i people do it in snakes and its ok in general then i dont see a problem, especially when everyone seems to love the aft x leopard gecko( dont know about on here but on facebook anyway)


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

MP reptiles said:


> lol to be honest i people do it in snakes and its ok in general then i dont see a problem, especially when everyone seems to love the *aft x leopard gecko*( dont know about on here but on facebook anyway)


I'd love to see some evidence of this cross. It is my understanding, that they are 100% incompatible.

Andy


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

ill get the pic









it is bred my mat at a and m geckos and he said its away to some uni for testing


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Interesting, although, as yet, fully unconvinced. 

Cheers


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

i like the looks he hasnt put any full body shots on it its because i asked him if he had tested the genetics and he said it was at the uni for testing


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## frenchy1979 (Oct 30, 2009)

*cross breeds*

arent beardies crossed to produce Rankins etc, this already happened in other species so it was only a matter of time.

may not be right, but its not suprising in the rep world is it:whistling2:

im sure in 10 years time we will see them for sale regularly:gasp:

mutation, inbreeding and cross breeding is what has brought alot of people to the industry. Leos, crestys etc have all had unnatural breeding habits to feed the hunger of the market, this is the next step. just a matter of time guys.

you may as well get use to it:whistling2:

that does not mean that i cross breed, as i dont and i only produce high end quality crestys:flrt:


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## Chris18 (Mar 22, 2009)

frenchy1979 said:


> arent beardies crossed to produce Rankins etc, this already happened in other species so it was only a matter of time.
> 
> may not be right, but its not suprising in the rep world is it:whistling2:
> 
> ...


No, rankins are a different naturally occuring species to the bearded dragon.
People have bred rankins and bearded dragons though to create the 'vitkins dragon'


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

ambyglam said:


> there are genetic barriers to stop interspecies breeding resulting in offspring, however if they can produce an offspring then fair dos


What about Ligers then?? Totally infertile and don't live long



Chris18 said:


> No, rankins are a different naturally occuring species to the bearded dragon.
> People have bred rankins and bearded dragons though to create the 'vitkins dragon'


Vittikins are a naturally occurring hydrid too: victory:


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## frenchy1979 (Oct 30, 2009)

*vittikins*

:lol2:thats the buggers, couldnt remember their names. 

But they are Hybrids tho, so in a round about sort of way 2 seperate sepcies boinked and gave us them things:lol2:

toe mato tomato:2thumb:


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

frenchy1979 said:


> :lol2:thats the buggers, couldnt remember their names.
> 
> But they are Hybrids tho, so in a round about sort of way 2 seperate sepcies boinked and gave us them things:lol2:
> 
> toe mato tomato:2thumb:


Yeh, but it occurred "naturally" without human intervention for the purpose of aesthetics:2thumb:

And what's a mato??:lol2:


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## jasont21 (Aug 25, 2010)

i personally have no problems with hybrids, it goes on all over the world and im sure given the chance (if it hasnt happened allready) alot of it has naturally occured before.
as far as being sold to the public goes, i did a fair bit of research into crestie hybrids a while ago and it seems that any of the hybrids that were born female, a few were tried to breed into those lines or other cresties etc again. none could reproduce. it seems that that is the hybrid drawback. yes you have an animal that can re grow its tail,but they cant succefully reproduce. if that is fully the case, selling them into the public would not be a bad thing as all they could ever mount to being is a unique and attractive pet


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

For me there is no real point comparing this hybridization, with any other, as each species (in each pair) has a unique evolutionary history, and so predicting outcomes (viable, fertile, physiological traits etc...) is verging on impossible. The real sticking point for every cross, for me, is which parents physiological traits will the offspring inherit. It is most likely, a little of both (but all three other options are valid (all from a single parent x 2, or traits common with neither parent). 

OK, why is this important? Well it means that any numpty can put two animals together, and if they are lucky, get something unique (or unholy, disgusting, beautiful etc... Delete as appropriate), but not every keeper is capable of keeping the resultant offspring healthy (or even alive).

I personally have little problem with people breeding these animals, or selling them for others too. IF everyone were to keep appropriate records, there _should_ be little risk of mixing hybrids with 'pure' species (a nonsense in itself. Read here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/680254-pure-species-pure-locales-pure.html). That said, who is to say that two hybridization events between the same species (or the same individuals) would create offspring that were physiologically and genetically compatible...

Andy


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

jasont21 said:


> i personally have no problems with hybrids, it goes on all over the world and im sure given the chance (if it hasnt happened allready) alot of it has naturally occured before.
> as far as being sold to the public goes, i did a fair bit of research into crestie hybrids a while ago and it seems that any of the hybrids that were born female, a few were tried to breed into those lines or other cresties etc again. none could reproduce. it seems that that is the hybrid drawback. yes you have an animal that can re grow its tail,but they cant succefully reproduce. if that is fully the case, selling them into the public would not be a bad thing as all they could ever mount to being is a unique and attractive pet


But surely the point of hybridising is to produce an animal which is healthier, stronger and "better". Otherwise is it not just to satisfy some peoples greed for wanting? 
Also, every time we (collective we) breed our animals we are putting them at risk. Risks can be low I know, but why risk one animals life to produce an animal which can never reproduce?


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## Basa (Jul 4, 2011)

Technically the selective breeding that occurs every day in this hobby to create and maintain different and new morphs is more damaging to a species in the long run than the occasional hybrid.

As if you look at it from a genetic stand point, selective breeding animals with the same or similar traits to get the same result is narrowing the gene pool. In natural circumstances, its a matter of survival of the fittest, and in the case of Bearded Dragons it would be the animal that is best camouflaged against predators/prey.

Where as creating hybrids isn't damaging either species gene pool.

Personally I'm not fond of either, but there's nothing we can do to stop either happening. As long as neither causes harm to the individual or the species then I see no problem with it.


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