# Dog training. Abuse or not? - Poll



## Vase (Jul 14, 2007)

I'm on another forum that is currently discussing a 'dog training' book by an author called William Koehler. It was published some time ago (60's I think) but I want to get some input from people on other forums.

To combat certain behaviours the book describes (for example) dunking a dog in water until it thinks its drowning. Throwing a line over something and hoisting the dog up by its neck (hanging), 'lashing' the dog with a leather belt saying; "Make sure you lay it on real good, till the dog thinks he's met the end, it'll save time later", and if its chewing an item for the item to be taped into the dogs mouth for two hours a day for six days.

The question is simple. Do you think this is abuse, or dog training?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

of course its abuse, anyone that disagrees should never be allowed to keep animals


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## Denis (May 28, 2008)

Thats just wrong....:bash: Hope that no body puts training!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Abuse.

Similar sickening things used to be used with horses to 'break their spirit' which apparantly makes them easier to break in. It's rubbish and abuse psychologically and physically as far as I'm concerned. Amazing how brilliant the results are with whispering which avoid all physical contact like that...suppose to these evil people that must be a fluke though. :bash:

I agree with Si, anyone who disagree's shouldn't be keeping animals...full stop.


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

im sorry but i think u are stupid for even putting this as a poll this is OBV ABUSE and to put this as a poll is sick. y wud u even put this on here? do u want to find people that think this is right or sumthin?

im disgusted


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## gersgirl84 (Jul 25, 2008)

This is definatly abuse. i cant believe some one would do this to another living thing. it is disgusting.


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## Vase (Jul 14, 2007)

bampoisongirl said:


> im sorry but i think u are stupid for even putting this as a poll this is OBV ABUSE and to put this as a poll is sick.


So I take it from that comment that you have already asked me why I've posted the poll and what my view of it is? 



bampoisongirl said:


> y wud u even put this on here?


I put this on here as there are people on another forum who actually think that its training and not abuse, therefore its justified.



bampoisongirl said:


> do u want to find people that think this is right or sumthin?


No, I'm hoping (and pretty much guaranteed) to find people that think its abuse. Then when I respond to those on another forum I'll be able to use this poll to prove my point that most think its abuse.



bampoisongirl said:


> im disgusted


So am I! Disgusted that people jump to the wrong conclusions and slate someone before bothering to find out the facts. But, of course, you havent done that have you?


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## MrEd (Jul 12, 2008)

gash gash gash io clicked the wrong one!!!! it think it is abuse!! i was too hasty to click and clicked vote without checking!! 

so ignore the siungular vote for training i did it by mistake :blush:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Its shocking that this book was ever published and anyone following these proceedures should think long and hard about what they are trying to achieve because the only thing you would teach a dog by doing this is that you are an untrustworthy violen person who cannot be friendly as well as confusing the dog it will never be metally healthy again.

Marina


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## mrsfluff (Jul 15, 2007)

OMG, what sort of person would think this is training? I'd certainly be concerned if people on the other forum don't see how wrong it is, not the sort to ask advice off me thinks!

Jo


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## Elaine R (Feb 2, 2008)

I voted abuse although in its day it was well known as training. The old school methods of "training" are thankfully no longer used so dog training and behaviour has moved on immensely from what it once was. 
The old methods of beating the dog into submission was what people used to believe was right. These days owners and trainers know you get far better results when they use the dogs willingness to please attitude. 

Times have moved on and people's attitudes to animals have changed for the better. Training methods have changed also. There is far better information out there now so that even things like rubbing a pups nose in its own mess are not now the norm for house breaking.

We can learn a lot from old school training methods, like how NOT to train a dog.


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## animalpotty (Jul 16, 2008)

Makes me feel sick to my stomach your reading that, how anyone now days can call that training is unbelivable. :censor:

If people of the dog forum u got this from think it's ok to train a dog in this way i think it's time u found yourself a new doggie forum to visit. 

I wouldn't even allow something like that on my forum :censor::censor:

I of course voted abuse :bash:


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## shelley_draven (Jul 5, 2008)

Disgusting, that's no way to treat a living thing.

I did a quick search on google, I was hoping that maybe Kohler was mauled to death by a dog he was abusing, sorry "training". I didn't know that people still train dogs using this method!

*The Foundation* (chapter 3) for The Koehler Method of Dog Training is a process using the dog’s own “right of choice.” Allow me to outline the foundation work for those not familiar with it (it’s a real attention getter). As early as day number three, the dog is brought onto the training field from a place of solitary confinement where he has been for about two hours. He has not eaten in 4 hours, nor has he consumed any water for one hour. He is wearing a properly fitted choke collar and a fifteen foot longe line. 

Taken from Dog Management Systems presents

He was the cheif dog trainer for Disney for 20 years!

:bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Definitely abuse and the Koehler method is still practiced by some morons, particularly in the States.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

bampoisongirl said:


> im sorry but i think u are stupid for even putting this as a poll this is OBV ABUSE and to put this as a poll is sick. y wud u even put this on here? do u want to find people that think this is right or sumthin?
> 
> im disgusted


 
this is why its a good idea to get off the internet and go to bed.


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

what we have to remember was that book was published in the 60s dog training has changed so much as our attitudes to dogs.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Unfortunately bosshogg.. Some people don't seem to want to realise that todays techniques (for anything) haven't been around since the beginning of time.


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## Vase (Jul 14, 2007)

Sadly some people are still following the book today. One of the reasons I started the poll was to get non biased input from another forum. I'd love ten minutes in a room with Koelher but right now, using the results of this poll to back up my claims that its abuse will be just fine.

Check the reviews on amazon...
Amazon.co.uk: The Koehler Method of Dog Training: William R Koehler: Books

Thanks guys for your input :notworthy:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

we studied him at college and yes his methods abuse i totally agree, it is sad some people still train using fear and abuse rather than understanding there dog, luckily it is limited and becoming more rare due to good trainers and behaviourist getting the word out thank god for Cesar Millian!!!!!!!!!


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## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

hi i would just like to apologise for my comment last nite i was really drunk and totally misread the whole thing. sorry again


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

abuse...

there are some nasty horrible people who do this with reptiles too i think they are from canada and are well known to publicise this on you tube as a good method of taming..

horrible people


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Sounds like the techniques that person was using to train their Boscs monitor...like putting it in the bath till it was nearly drowned then 'rescuing' it.:bash:


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

The Koehler Method of Utility Dog Training 

Amazon.com: The Koehler Method of Utility Dog Training: William R. Koehler: Books

Yet, as much damning as he receives here - he was classed as a champion dog trainer and handler.

Now dead as of 1993, and his son that followed in his footsteps Dick also dead 1998, both were classed as natural dog trainers.

Dick Koehler: Dick Koehler

"Whilst l can not agree to the methods he used that you have described in the original post ,one must remember that all methods of training animals have changed considerably in the last twenty years alone.

Indeed, what was classed as acceptable behaviour for adults to their children twenty years ago is no longer acceptable in this climate anymore than the treatment or training style that Koehler applied during his trainings.

'Of interest is the method of dog training he developed over the course of many years. The Koehler Method of Dog Training has been praised, championed, vilified and in some cases damned. When you excel you are actually sticking your head up high enough to get shot. Only if you are truly excellent will the shots all miss and leave you standing straight and tall above the masses. That was Bill Koehler. Quiet, unassuming, soft spoken and gentle of hand, Bill gave us a way to train dogs while at the same time honoring their very dog-ness. The Koehler Method of Dog Training is just as valid and useful in the Twenty-first century as it was in the Twentieth century and we suspect it will continue to have just as much meaning for as long as we have dogs to train'.

William (Bill) Koehler

Perhaps the poll should have read this: 

Agree with Koehler Trainng Style & Disagree with Koehler Training Style


"William Koehler has a bad reputation among modern dog trainers. I have to admit that I delayed reading any of the Koehler books for years, having being told that they were sickeningly cruel and barbaric. 

When I did finally get around to reading the first Koehler book, "The Koehler Method of Dog Training", I was actually rather impressed. Any argument I have with the first Koehler book has to do with the outdated final chapter suggestions for dealing with canine behaviour problems. The methods described for teaching actual basic obedience are easy to read and implement, they emphasize achieving reliability, and are scrupulously fair to the dog. 

However despite my fondness towards the earlier Koehler method books, I have a rather ambivalent attitude towards this particular volume. 

"The Koehler Method of Utility Dog Training" is similar to the other books in the series. Like the previous Koehler books, it is well written, and the proscribed exercises are logical and sometimes impressively inventive. The techniques in this book generally follow the simple three step Koehler formula of: 
1) repeatedly show the dog what you want, 
2) repeatedly praise him when he complies, 
3) after the dog fully understands how to obey the command, then physically correct him if he ever disobeys. 

Personally, I feel that the Koehler method lends itself better to basic obedience training than to complicated Utility level obedience work. I feel that while it's easy to justify using physical corrections to train a dog in basic obedience, when reliability to a "come" or "stay" command might conceivably save a dog's life, it's harder to justify using physical corrections for the exercises found in Utility level trials. 

Utility obedience exercises have more to do with the whims and ambitions of humans than the safety of the dog. Unlike a faulty "come" command, the lack of a reliable directed retrieve will not impact on your dog's safety or quality of life. So if your dog can't be motivated to do the complicated utility obedience routine using motivational methods alone, then in my opinion it's probably kinder to find another sport than to attempt to correct him into performing just to satisfy your own ambitions. 

The vintage of this book is clearly shown by the incorrect claim that obedience work taught through reward or games cannot be reliable. This was probably true when the book was written, but since then we have discovered many new training methods that lend themselves very well to teaching advanced obedience work (shaping behaviours using marker words, motivating with food rewards, or using prey drive rewards as in Schutzhund). The Koehler method of praise-and-correction-only might get the best out of some dogs, but many dogs will do better in advanced obedience work when taught using different forms of motivator. 

However, this book certainly isn't all bad. There are several really useful techniques for teaching utility exercises in here - the technique described for teaching directed retrieve is very clever, and the method of teaching send aways is also particularly good. These could be used as they are, or could easily be adapted to include food or toy rewards if desired. If you are interested in utility dog training, or trying to train your own utility dog, then "the Koehler method of utility dog training" is certainly worth a read. 

Be aware that the book builds heavily on foundation work outlined in the two earlier books: "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" and "The Koehler Method of Open Obedience Training". Reading both of the prior books is a necessity to get the most out of this one". 

Readers' Review:

Amazon.com: The Koehler Method of Utility Dog Training: William R. Koehler: Books


So here is someone commenting on this particular book, and whilst he acknowledges that not all claims are going to be held in viable account by modern dog trainers, he does also state that he is quite impressed with certain aspects of the book itself.

As said, hanging a dog by the throat is not my idea of acceptable, but what must be considered is how many of his principles have been adapted by modern dog trainers but worked and reworked into acceptable finese?

Not being a dog trainer myself, and also not having read this book from front to back, l can pass no other comments apart from what l have googled and this: times and procedures change and thankfully because of that Animal Welfare in the 21st century is viewed more differently than it was 100 years ago.

Review Two:

http://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-Open-Obedience-Field/dp/0876057539/ref=pd_sbs_b_1

The Koehler Method of Open Obedience for Ring, Home and Field

Review Three:

http://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-Dog-Training/dp/0876056575/ref=pd_sbs_b_njs_2

The Koehler Method of Dog Training


R


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Similar methods were used by the police and military when I was younger and felt then it was terrible to treat a dog in such a way also found it amusing when some of the dogs turned on their 'trainer' at least they got a taster of its anger.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

That is actually very true.

My father is both an ex military man and ex copper.

In Malaysia where he was based with the RAAF 1970, he was in charge of security, and also where they held the military training camps for canines.

He says as a non dog lover himself, that he found the training methods for canines harsh, but it produced highly disciplined security units at a time when they were needed.

As a British policeman he also witnessed training methods for canines that were harsh, but they were needed according to the handlers to ensure that the dogs were used to everything and that they were disciplined.

I am a dog lover, and owner, but apart from very basic training aids, l have no need for anything harsher or harder to be applied to my animals.

R

This is interesting: http://community-2.webtv.net/Hahn-50thAP-K9/K9History/


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

The fact that this might have been a valid method in the past doesn't really make it acceptable now. Dog training has moved on and there are positive reward based techniques to teach a dog anything it needs to know. 
At one time it was acceptable to perform surgery with no anaesthetic but we don't do that anymore either. The followers of Koehler should live in the now and allow this type of training to take its place in the history books.


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## Vase (Jul 14, 2007)

Its been an interesting thread. Thanks everyone for your input.

Just to clarify...I made the poll as proof that no matter what you called it, or when it was carried out, that it was still abuse.

A few people (on the other forum) were suggesting it wasnt abuse and that it was 'training' instead. One person suggested a poll so I went to the other forums that I'm on and did one.

And for the record, I think the same as you lot! :devil:


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## Dunk or Die (Jul 27, 2008)

PMSL Vase, well you really have manipulated these people to make them look fools. Fifty nine people on this forum have just voted to kill a healthy dog rather than dunk it its head in a bucket of water the only other possible option and it was not called training! Ill leave Vase to explain


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> The fact that this might have been a valid method in the past doesn't really make it acceptable now.


I agree, but we must try not to judge events of the past with the standards of the present.



> Dog training has moved on and there are positive reward based techniques to teach a dog anything it needs to know.


Agreed, but by that logic you can't turn back the clock to a period *before* reward based techniques were developed and criticise people for not using an, as yet, uninvented/undeveloped technique.



> At one time it was acceptable to perform surgery with no anaesthetic but we don't do that anymore either.


I agree but in line with my above comments we can't travel back to a time before anaesthetic was used/invented and criticise people for not using it.



> The followers of Koehler should live in the now and allow this type of training to take its place in the history books.


Agreed

Stuart


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> PMSL Vase, well you really have manipulated these people to make them look fools. Fifty nine people on this forum have just voted to kill a healthy dog rather than dunk it its head in a bucket of water the only other possible option and it was not called training! Ill leave Vase to explain


Why should it be an either/or between those two options? Killing a healthy dog *and* dunking a healthy dogs head in water are both wrong in my opinion (although I'll admit the latter is the lesser of two evils, so to speak). 

Stuart


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## Greenphase (Feb 9, 2008)

Yes it is abuse as we see it in todays world but years ago it was considered the norm.

Look at the way things have changed everywhere now.What was done to animals and humans 20-30 years would not be tolerated now.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

30 years ago I used compulsive training methods along with most other trainers. The thing is that we have learned methods wich are kinder to the dog and infinitely less strenuous for the handler. It must be acknowledged however that classic conditioning which lead to operand conditioning and reward based training has its roots firmly in the laboratory of Pavlov and his monstrous experiments. So as essexchondro has stated, we cannot judge how people did things in the past but we can move on and continue to learn and develop the way we do things. This is particularly important lesson in a forum like this where reptile keeping is the primary concern. As reptile keeping is in its infancy (compared with how long we have associated with dogs), in a few hundred years we might look back with similar disgust at how we do things now.


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## Dunk or Die (Jul 27, 2008)

> Why should it be an either/or between those two options?


its very. very simple, those were the only two options, there was no manoverabilty outside those limits, 64 people here would have killed the otherwise healthy dog, in a nutshell it is as clear cut and simple as I have stated, no other options were possible at all.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> its very. very simple, those were the only two options, there was no manoverabilty outside those limits, 64 people here would have killed the otherwise healthy dog, in a nutshell it is as clear cut and simple as I have stated, no other options were possible at all.


Sounds a lot like the poll you've just created that only has two options.


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## Dunk or Die (Jul 27, 2008)

> Sounds a lot like the poll you've just created that only has two options.


The fourth and final repeat, those were *ONLY TWO POSSIBLE OPTIONS*


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> The fourth and final repeat, those were *ONLY TWO POSSIBLE OPTIONS*


And like I'll also repeat, you've also created a poll which only has two options to choose from (out of a greater number of real life possibilities). Pots and kettles, my friend, pots and kettles...


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## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

Dunk or Die said:


> The fourth and final repeat, those were *ONLY TWO POSSIBLE OPTIONS*


I think you may have a problem..

Have you contacted a doctor about it?

John


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## Exotic X (Jun 28, 2008)

this is sick in my opinion!!!!!! anyone who even thinks about is sick.
if i was to walk past someone doing this to any animal i would do exactly the same to them.!!!!!!!!!

Amy.


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## weeble (Sep 29, 2007)

Dunk or Die said:


> The fourth and final repeat, those were *ONLY TWO POSSIBLE OPTIONS*


Sorry, but to put a Poll up with the only 2 options were a form of cruelty to a dog is stupid.
There is always another option of "leave the bloody dog alone"...

If i gave you the option of a slap round the face or cut of your nose would you choose the slap cos it less painful???

Or would you ask why you had to pick something that is cruel and ask for neither?

Well a dog cant ask for the 3rd option, and any human who trains a dog in that way should be castrated imho.

You sound like a dictator...vote for me...or vote for me....some choice you offer :censor:


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## tokay (Mar 13, 2007)

Sickr who wrote that book needs some of that "training" done of him!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Most of the old ways of training are based on 'brute force and ignorance'. They break a dog's will and make it terrified. How this is supposed to engender respect and a willingnesss to follow orders, I have no idea.
Books like this are valuable insights into how not to do things and how ignorant people used to be in the olden days.
Luckily with people like Cesar Milan about, who understand pack heirachy and can make some pretty dramatic turnarounds in dogs just by showing doting and indulgent owners how to enforce pack leadership.
While I don't necessarily hold with some of the training collars he uses, his methods are what dogs understand and he gets results with dogs who have been unhappy or savage for a lot of years.


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## Vase (Jul 14, 2007)

Dunk or Die said:


> PMSL Vase, well you really have manipulated these people to make them look fools. Fifty nine people on this forum have just voted to kill a healthy dog rather than dunk it its head in a bucket of water the only other possible option and it was not called training! Ill leave Vase to explain



ROFL. The poll was in reference to Koelhers methods being training or cruelty. It had nothing to do with dogs being PTS. Sorry to burst your bubble.

You'll find similar opinions here as you would anywhere else, and thats just what the poll has shown.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

just remembered something i saw today..

We were doing a car boot sale and there was an old bloke with a puppy. Everytime the puppy tried to cut in front of him he'd give him a knock with his walking stick.
Not the best training method but he wasn't hitting it hard, just a tap. Not sure if he thought it'd work but the puppy would still try and cut in front of him.


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## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

What an interesting read 

The main conclusion then is that back in the day it was acceptable, not so much now, although there are still some people who impliment the theory. 


I, myself, have not read any of his books, nor was even aware of their existance until this thread but I did read the reviews of the books and what people have said thus far. 

The initial question of beating, hanging and drowning an animal is highly in the abuse category, as it would be were it to any other animal or indeed a human. How do we learn things? A willingness to please other humans around us in the first stages and then it's our own independant motivation that either leads us to greater knowledge or makes us skive off school. Animal logic is the same, they WANT to please us, especially since we're the ones who feed them. By taking time to understand your animal's phsychology, you're saving yourself years and years of unbalanced and unwanted behaviour. 

If you do follow the Cesar way of being the pack leader, it helps you as a person because of the power you have. This, in my opinion, is by far the greatest method of training or whatever you want to call it, and he should be applauded. 

methods of the past may suit some people and if they are in the closed mind to not try new methods then it is their shortcoming and their animal that suffers unneccesarily. I truly pity any animal that is put through Koelhers training method.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> That is actually very true.
> 
> My father is both an ex military man and ex copper.
> 
> ...


 
The method was used by police here in the UK until about 10 years ago when an Essex police dog died during training and the shit hit the fan as the devastated handler spilled the beans to the press about some of the cruelty perpetrated in the name of 'training'.
I understand that now, police and other dogs are trained more humanely and trainers are checked by independant people.
Personally I am sickened by some of the utter cruelty inflicted on dogs that their owners profess to love.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Vase said:


> I'm on another forum that is currently discussing a 'dog training' book by an author called William Koehler. It was published some time ago (60's I think) but I want to get some input from people on other forums.
> 
> To combat certain behaviours the book describes (for example) dunking a dog in water until it thinks its drowning. Throwing a line over something and hoisting the dog up by its neck (hanging), 'lashing' the dog with a leather belt saying; "Make sure you lay it on real good, till the dog thinks he's met the end, it'll save time later", and if its chewing an item for the item to be taped into the dogs mouth for two hours a day for six days.
> 
> The question is simple. Do you think this is abuse, or dog training?


Ofcourse it's abuse this is the 60's where talking about here there where most likly books on training your wife and train your childen let alone dogs.it's was second nature then to lash with a belt,cane,or lock in seller'etc bad behaved childen.Then it was all about spirt braking in the 60's a dog was soming you ownd not a family member half the time kids had a hard enough time.The last record handing took place in 1964 so if humans got that treatment how much time of day do you think they had for dogs.Not every one would have been a A$$ but there would have been a fair amount of them.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

gazz said:


> Ofcourse it's abuse this is the 60's where talking about here there where most likly books on training your wife and train your childen let alone dogs.it's was second nature then to lash with a belt,cane,or lock in seller'etc bad behaved childen.Then it was all about spirt braking in the 60's a dog was soming you ownd not a family member half the time kids had a hard enough time.The last record handing took place in 1964 so if humans got that treatment how much time of day do you think they had for dogs.Not every one would have been a A$$ but there would have been a fair amount of them.


Translation:
_Of course it's abuse. This is the 60's we're talking about here, where most likely there were also books on training your wife or your children, let alone dogs._
_It was second nature to thrash with a belt or cane, or lock in a cellar, badly behaved children._
_ Then, it was all about breaking the spirit._
_In the 60's a dog was something you owned, and not regarded as a family member._
_Half the time, the kids had a hard enough time._
_The last recorded hanging took place in 1964, so if humans got that sort of treatment, how much time of day do you think they had for dogs?_
_Not everyone would have been an arse but there would have been a fair amount of them._


Actually in the 1960's as at any time, most dog owners did in fact regard their dogs as family members. Not all parents were brutalising their children either. I don't know any of my friends which ever got thrashed with a belt or cane or were locked in the cellar either by their parents.
And most right thinking dog owners would have recognised abuse for exactly that too.
You will always get the odd sadistic person who gets some kind of gratification from terrorising and bullying those weaker than themselves whether it be animals or children, both then and now.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Translation:
> _Of course it's abuse. This is the 60's we're talking about here, where most likely there were also books on training your wife or your children, let alone dogs._
> _It was second nature to thrash with a belt or cane, or lock in a cellar, badly behaved children._
> _Then, it was all about breaking the spirit._
> ...


By bullying i guess we could include translating a post because you have a better grasp of punctuation than the poster you quoted?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Translation:
> _Of course it's abuse. This is the 60's we're talking about here, where most likely there were also books on training your wife or your children, let alone dogs._
> _It was second nature to thrash with a belt or cane, or lock in a cellar, badly behaved children._
> _Then, it was all about breaking the spirit._
> ...


Why did you feel the need for the translation.Half the forum type in the same tongue as me anyway.Thay probably don't understand the translation version now :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:.


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## murinus (Jan 3, 2007)

personally if i found anyone 'hanging' their dog, the dog would be removed, the owner would then be 'hanged' and left to rot

if i found somebody had taped an item into a dogs mouth, i would insert my size 10 steel toe cap into the owners mouth 'repeatedly' till i thought i had 'trained' them not to do this to their dog

if i found somebody holding their dogs head in a bucket of water, they would swap places with the dog till they thought they were drowning.

all imho :censor:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

gazz said:


> Why did you feel the need for the translation.Half the forum type in the same tongue as me anyway.Thay probably don't understand the translation version now :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:.


 
Meko, Gazz, take it with a pinch of salt. fenwoman is *ALWAYS* offending someone. 

Although, fenwoman, it is a pity as you do have some great contributions to make.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Don't think she offends people, she's just ignorant.


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## B&WTegu&Beardies (Mar 28, 2008)

Haven't read the thread only the OP but in it's day it was classed as training but now it is seen as abuse etc. I picked abuse because of the year we live in and that I think it is wrong but back then I quess the majority of dog owners did it.

Curty.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Dunk or Die said:


> its very. very simple, those were the only two options, there was no manoverabilty outside those limits, 64 people here would have killed the otherwise healthy dog, in a nutshell it is as clear cut and simple as I have stated, no other options were possible at all.


are you crazy, your poll didnt even make sense, your posts make you look like a babbling loon and you really think you are right its pretty is funny :lol2:


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## Vase (Jul 14, 2007)

SiUK said:


> are you crazy,


Yes he is mate. He spent two years doing art therapy in a london mental hospital and now spends his time trolling the web causing trouble and calling everyone dog abusers.

He uses e-collars on dogs and says that other methods like clicker training are just scams and if/when the training fails and the dog gets hurt the owner will be an abuser.

If anyone wants proof just pm me : victory:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

About sums him up, im not a fan of the RSPCA although I am a fan of animal welfare, and if the RSPCA heard about anyone using these methods of training im sure theres no court in the country that wouldnt prosecute and find them guilty its barbaric.


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## Shrike_xX (Aug 1, 2008)

How the hell would a dog learn anything other than to fear being a dog? Dogs have wonderful characters so how anyone can do that to their friends is sickening!


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