# FBH v ADC Judicial Review



## Colin Clark (Jun 15, 2014)

To all Forum users.

I am asking that you put aside your personal differences, your dislike of the FBH or whatever grievances you have. The judicial review at the high court on 4th June this year is extremely important, it will have far reaching implications and will affect not just reptile & amphibian, but all vertebrate shows.
I cannot understand how people are willing to spend thousands of pounds on animals, in some cases for a single specimen, yet will not donate a small amount to help secure the future of shows, where they can sell their offspring/surplus stock from their breeding programs.
I appreciate that shows are not the only outlet for these animals, but if the anti***8217;s win this case what***8217;s next on their agenda, selling through the forums?
I am asking that every forum user donates whatever they can afford to the FBH to do this. It will soon mount up.
After the judicial review, we can return to the normal debates on this forum, but for now I am asking that we put aside our differences, show unity in the hobby and defend our rights.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank again those that have donated over the past two days.
Thank you for reading this, the paypal donate button is on the FBH website. http://www.fbh.org.uk/


[{A.DMIN NOTE} - Due to the importance of this issue to the entire hobby, this thread will be moved around the forums over the next week or so to enable as many people as possible to see it and be aware of the issue] PLEASE DONT GO THROUGH AND ARGUE JUST DONATE OR DONT IF YOU DONT FEEL LIKE IT


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Colin Clark said:


> To all Forum users.
> 
> I am asking that you put aside your personal differences, your dislike of the FBH or whatever grievances you have. The judicial review at the high court on 4th June this year is extremely important, it will have far reaching implications and will affect not just reptile & amphibian, but all vertebrate shows.
> I cannot understand how people are willing to spend thousands of pounds on animals, in some cases for a single specimen, yet will not donate a small amount to help secure the future of shows, where they can sell their offspring/surplus stock from their breeding programs.
> ...


perhaps outling _specifically_ what is being reviewed, may help...coz I don't think this is about the hobby in general, and a judicial review is about a point of law not being followed properly during a previous hearing, rather than making a general decision or a change of law...


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

As above, also a break down of exactly what the donations would be used to fund, with projected costs.

I simply don't feel that there is enough simple bullet pointed information about what has happened, what is happening, how much money is needed and exactly what for


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## Colin Clark (Jun 15, 2014)

The JR would establish one way or the other if shows are legal or not. This would cover all vertebrate shows. This has been laid out in more detail by others.

If the review goes in our favour, it means that shows can go ahead without interference from the likes of the APA. If it fails, then no more shows, that includes fish, bird, & mammal shows.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

The FBH who is often on the front line of dealing with the legalities. 
There is an awful lot of murkiness surrounding these third parties with show cancellations , like the recent, local health and safety organisation, (there doesn't really seem to be a local health and safety organisation. 

What is important to keep in mind, the anti's aren't all as stupid as Mr Warwick, many of them come from different walks of life, just like we do as reptile keepers, many of them will come from highly educated proffesional roles, and the relisation is, they can use those skills to serve a purpose to make reptile keeping, look bad, that is a threat in itself. 

When the animal rights start stirring, they come in force, and they come organised, we are never prepared, and we are never organised, we just seem to sit back and take the hits.


The FBH is often on the front line of dealing with the legal issues, but this is expensive, this costs money. 

If people on a small reptile group on Facebook, only donated £1 to the FBH, that is £400, if everyone on the rfuk Facebook group only donated £1 that would be nearly £10,000, if everyone on this forum only donated £1 that would be nearly £500,000 and there would be enough of that fund, to start mythbusting some of these (strange scientific results mr warwick presents) and to prove out general health concerns, by people with real qualifications, and real, science. 

This forum is huge, and there is a lot of well educated people on here, with a wealth of knowledge, expirience, and expertise from many different walks of life, that could come together, to do there bit for the hobby, or the animals, they care so much about. 

I am sure I read only the other day that it has already been proposed that advertising animals online could be the next thing, it is already been proposed what animals we should or shouldn't be allowed to keep. 

The FBH will only be as effective as its funds, and in the end, when your fighting for your rights to keep, breed, to display, sell at shows, it is going to cost in the end, it will cost to put an end to the redicules hidden agendas that the APA have, and the general nonsensical science they often put forward. 


I don't even breed anything, or go to the shows, but I feel, that if I ever want to go to a show, that the option would be there for me to do so, I don't even want to buy any new animals, but I might do in the future. 

Whether people really like it or not, whether they are relising there is a threat or taking it seriously or not, our hobby is being chipped away, by fat people with fake qualifications, and perpetuating nonsensical "science" if that can be said, I just call it nonsense, to a naieve public, who really wouldn't bother to research anything themselves. 

The best thing people can do, is get behind Chris Newman, whether you like the guy or not, donate to the FBH, and push them forward, in the end, it is your hobby, it isn't theres, it is your rights to keep what you want, not there's. 

In the end, it is going to come down too, regardless of what preference we have over husbandry. the FBH. 

What I think it is important for the FBH to do also, is to offer guidance to people on what they themselves can individually do to protect there futures, guidance on where we should complain too should something like what recently happened with Kempton to make a complaint and guidance on how to stand up for there hobby, as it is slowly being chipped away. 


Animal rights orginisations, have one main common ground agenda. 
To bann the captive keeping of animals, and they wont just dissapear, they are receiving much financial support to acheive that end goal, nice little old ladies leaving thousands in there will because they have no other family, and they don't like snakes!!!. 


At the end of the day, its your hobby, and if you love it, you should do your bit to protect it.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

I would like to see a detailed break down of the costs involved and defecit requiring funding. At the moment it feels like a vague request for money with no real detail, deadlines or other information. I am not a fan of generic funding requests, however if this is a request for a specific course of action then that is different - I am one for detail however


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Colin Clark said:


> The JR would establish one way or the other if shows are legal or not. This would cover all vertebrate shows. This has been laid out in more detail by others.
> 
> If the review goes in our favour, it means that shows can go ahead without interference from the likes of the APA. If it fails, then no more shows, that includes fish, bird, & mammal shows.


i don't think its that simple is it?...wasn't the issue that people where operating as a business, without licence? or is it something else?

infact there has been very little detail about exactly what is being reviewed tbh, and it could be reiterated so that it is clear...

a judicial review doesn't change law, it is simply a process which reviews a previous hearing, to ensure that the decisions that where made, where done according to law and following proper procedures...which I assume, the FBH is saying has not happened in this particular case?


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Sharpstrain - with all due respect, I think you are looking at the trees and missing the wood.

The FBH COULD say they need £8237 (random figure made up) to pay lawyers for this particular day in court.

But that's missing the point.

The point being, that only the most blinkered could have missed the fact that the forces against us being allowed to keep our animals are gaining ground.

The past issues with Doncaster, the latest at Kempton, the EU lists, the Scottish announcement. And so on. Are we going to close ranks, or are we going to keep bickering as the nut jobs crack on - as details don't bother them. They are probably donating as we speak .......

Its impossible to fight back without money. 

This isn't an attack on you mate, but my general frustration with what happens whenever these discussions open.

I'm totally with Salazare. For god's sake donate something. Stop fiddling while Rome burns.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a charity how they intend to use the funds that they are asking me to donate. In fact it think it is the responsible thing to do. I certainly won't be making any donations without it.


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

Done, donated.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

refusing to answer peoples questions aint a good way to go about getting funding...and I'm a supporter of the FBH work!

seems to me, considering that no other information is forthcoming, that there is a little sensationalism going on...but hey, i can only jump to conclusions right...


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## Colin Clark (Jun 15, 2014)

sharpstrain said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a charity how they intend to use the funds that they are asking me to donate. In fact it think it is the responsible thing to do. I certainly won't be making any donations without it.


Dear Sharpstrain,

the FBH is not a charity, it is an organization run by volunteers fighting for your rights to keep and breed your animals. 

I dont think it will hurt to say to date this JR has cost the FBH & its supporters (the clubs & societies that are affiliated and those individuals that have donated) £10K it is projected that this could cost us £40K if the third party delay the hearing.

The matter is with our solicitors so will not name the organization.


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

Donated!

Lets get em! :war:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

sharpstrain said:


> I would like to see a detailed break down of the costs involved and defecit requiring funding. At the moment it feels like a vague request for money with no real detail, deadlines or other information. I am not a fan of generic funding requests, however if this is a request for a specific course of action then that is different - I am one for detail however


 It's a reasonable question but there is a limit on how much can be said regarding the Judicial Review at this point in time. After the hearing we will be saying lots but for now the best I can do is say this;

A third party put pressure on Arun District Council to get the Portsmouth show stopped. This was done using information that appears to be lacking in accuracy, claiming that it would be illegal under the 1983 amendment of the 1951 pet animals act if hobbyists sold their excess stock at the show.

The council then allegedly stopped the show based on this information. 

Our argument is that the 1983 amendment of the 1951 pet animals act does not stop hobbyists from selling at shows and that the Council did not have the authority to cancel an event based on the fact that something illegal MIGHT happen. 

The FBH were left in a two direction situation. In one direction, we could of backed down and given up but we knew that we would then see every other council forced into the same action by the third party concerned and that it wouldn’t have just stopped at reptile shows. This left the other direction which was to stand our ground and fight for our rights and that is what we have chosen to do. 

As for costs, I wish I knew! Everything in this process costs money. Every meeting, every email, every phone call, every letter. Every minute spent researching the law and every minute spent discussing it. Not to mention the court costs for the days hearing. While we have a ball park figure floating around, the simple fact is, we wont know what this will all cost until it is all finished. 

At this moment in time the bulk of the costs (now well over 10 K) have been met by the clubs along with money raised by the shows (fees and collections) and donations. Our opponents have spotted this and are trying to stop us by stopping this years shows, hence the loss of Kempton and I’ve no doubt a mountain of complaints to Doncaster council about the IHS show. Our day in court will more than double what we have paid already and if we loose..........well we just aren’t going to loose because if we do, it won’t just be money that we lose, it will be all animal related events.

And yes WHEN we win we will be going for costs and looking for damages from our opponents but that’s after we win. For now we have to find the money and that means we have to ask everyone to help. So if your sitting around feeling annoyed at the loss of yet another show (Kempton) then help us to fight to get the shows back and donate a couple of quid. At this moment in time every penny counts.

Gordon Glasson
FBH Vice Chairman

Many thanks to all those that have donated so far.:no1::notworthy:


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## cherryshrimp (Aug 1, 2012)

Donation sent. Already donated to the collection bucket at Doncaster but we need to be more committed than the antis!

Very simple through Paypal.

Took 30 secs to google the FBH site and click and send.


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Natrix said:


> As for costs, I wish I knew! Everything in this process costs money. Every meeting, every email, every phone call, every letter. Every minute spent researching the law and every minute spent discussing it. Not to mention the court costs for the days hearing. While we have a ball park figure floating around, the simple fact is, we wont know what this will all cost until it is all finished.
> 
> [/SIZE]


A couple of years ago I was involved in taking my local council to court over destruction of reptile habitat, and I know this from bitter experience. 

It might be worth saying that in the end we shut our legal action down because we ran out of money ... we had a case, but the funds ran out and the opposition had very deep pockets.

You can be on the side of the angels, but its hard to get justice on a shoestring. 

Sorry for labouring the point, I just hope everyone donates something.


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## TWGarland (May 24, 2009)

Donated. Come on people, do your bit aswell.


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## keithshoesmith (Mar 29, 2011)

*Donated*

Small amounts do add up, a Fiver here a Tenner there makes the difference.
It does not have to be big amounts just what you want, all is appecaited.
: victory:


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Federation of British Herpetologists - Reptiles for Life!


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

I have donated. Not much but hope it will help


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## charlottej1983 (Oct 29, 2007)

Just a thought. Might be worth getting a new thread with the link to donate and statement up as a sticky?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Stickies dont always work. They sometimes get left at the top of the page where no one looks at them.


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

I guess we just bump this thread then :2thumb:


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## cherryshrimp (Aug 1, 2012)

If stickying isn't the best idea is there any way of sharing the thread around the different groups in the forum? I generally look at chelonian room only - bet there are others in the small animal section or say snake section that never venture into the phib room or whatever. If they are unaware of the threat to keeping 'exotics' they need to know.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

This has been moved here for a few days only as most people dont look in the hobby issue part of the forum.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

I rarely venture outside the Snake section - I've thrown a bit into the pot.


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## scotrates (Jun 29, 2007)

donation sent, 
come on guys..lets keep our hobby!


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## James5012 (Sep 6, 2010)

Donation done : victory:


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

I am not a fan of the reptile markets. Have never seen reptiles shown and ribbons and rosettes given as prizes at reptile shows but have only seen animals and accessories sold. Why call them shows when they clearly are not?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Well you obviously haven't been to Kempton or Doncaster in the last few years as rosettes are handed out for the best turned out tables.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

I've made my criticisms of the governing bodies public more times than I can remember, however, I'll chip in for this. It's not just about shows, it's about messing with the rights of reptile keepers to keep reptiles. When we win this one I suggest we all meet up in Trafalgar Square for a huge rally and hand in our petition to Downing street that we will all have signed to protect our right to keep our animals. We should make it clear to the media during this rally that the goal of certain anti groups is to stop all pet keeping and that they have used underhand criminal methods and propagaganda to begin this erosion of all pet keeper's rights. Standing with us should be the dog owners, the cat owners, the bird keepers and all pet people whose animals are part of their way of life. The dogs should be with us so that pet keepers watching know their rights are ultimately under threat too. We should throw light on these extremist arseholes and crush them once and for all. And I'll buy everyone a pint in the pub after.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

Uromastyxman said:


> Standing with us should be the dog owners, the cat owners, the bird keepers and all pet people whose animals are part of their way of life.


I see the mouse owners, the rat owners, the multi owners, the rabbit owners and the owner of Wilbur the cat have not been mentioned!


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

MoreliaUK said:


> I see the mouse owners, the rat owners, the multi owners, the rabbit owners and the owner of Wilbur the cat have not been mentioned!


If you're going to be flippant I won't be buying you a pint. Stick a few quid in the pot.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

colinm said:


> Well you obviously haven't been to Kempton or Doncaster in the last few years as rosettes are handed out for the best turned out tables.


Come on though - you can't deny that they aren't really shows they are market places and the main intention of people going is to either buy or sell. The numbers of entrants for the actual show section is minimal and the numbers of attendees is thousands. I am not saying this is wrong, but let's not pretend their main function is to award rosettes.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Their function is for hobbyists to sell excess offspring, it's as simple as that. They are not markets. All table holders are judged by an ex RSPCA officer and rosettes are given out to the best displays.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

colinm said:


> Their function is for hobbyists to sell excess offspring, it's as simple as that. They are not markets. All table holders are judged by an ex RSPCA officer and rosettes are given out to the best displays.


They give out rosettes at cattle markets too but they do not insist on calling those as cattle shows. How are the reptile markets/shows termed where there are professional breeders in attendance? Ham, Kempton, Houten etc..


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

colinm said:


> Their function is for hobbyists to sell excess offspring, it's as simple as that. They are not markets. All table holders are judged by an ex RSPCA officer and rosettes are given out to the best displays.


I am sorry but there are a lot more that hobbyists selling excess offspring. As I said I don't think there is a problem with a market place, but let's not pretend it is something else,


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Uromastyxman said:


> however, I'll chip in for this. It's not just about shows, it's about messing with the rights of reptile keepers to keep reptiles.


This ...


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I don't see what Hamm and Houten have got to do with this. We are talking about British shows here. OK if you don't like them that's fair enough , pretty much as your disdain for Royal Python keepers, but thousands of people enjoy them as a day out . If you think that professional breeders are there it's best to report them on the day to the organisers and not after the event. Unfortunately by law at present the shows cannot have a PSL. If they were able to be stallholders could be private and commercial.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

colinm said:


> I don't see what Hamm and Houten have got to do with this. We are talking about British shows here. OK if you don't like them that's fair enough , pretty much as your disdain for Royal Python keepers, but thousands of people enjoy them as a day out . If you think that professional breeders are there it's best to report them on the day to the organisers and not after the event. Unfortunately by law at present the shows cannot have a PSL. If they were able to be stallholders could be private and commercial.


I wouldn't dream of reporting anyone, I don't have an issue with it, however I also won't pretend something is one thing when it is clearly something else.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Perhaps people should read Colin's original post as the whole point of this thread was to present a united front against those against the hobby. The shows are the most visible part of the hobby and display that there are many thousands of people keep and are interested in reptiles and amphibians.


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

This nit picking does my head in.

OK - so the shows get closed. You didn't go, didn't like them, so don't really care. 

Do you REALLY think the people involved in shutting them down are going to say 'job done' reptiles are now safe and go off and take up stamp collecting or something? 

Please people keep on donating and stop arguing, this is really important.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

Iulia said:


> This nit picking does my head in.
> 
> OK - so the shows get closed. You didn't go, didn't like them, so don't really care.
> 
> ...


Truth and transparency are also very important and a hobby that is open, honest and robust is much more defendable that one which avoids then truth


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

colinm said:


> Perhaps people should read Colin's original post as the whole point of this thread was to present a united front against those against the hobby. The shows are the most visible part of the hobby and display that there are many thousands of people keep and are interested in reptiles and amphibians.


that is exactly why it is important that they are honestly represented


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Sharpstrain - what is it you actually want here?

You came on the thread asking where your donation - if you made one - would be spent.

That question was answered.

Now you are back on with another argument.

All that is going to happen here is people will be put off donating. This court case is extremely important. If we lose, we will have a lot more to worry about than if the shows should have been called markets.

Could you consider - maybe :flrt: all this said in a nice tone with a smile - leave this off for another day and another thread? 

The question about how the money is spent is answered as clearly as it can, when dealing with legal matters.

The rest - really this isn't the place.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

It is a bit of a difficult argument, I am a regular visitor to the New Forest County Show, where, if you go into the fur & feather tents you will find birds and rabbits shut into little tiny cages and in the rabbit tent lot of rabbits for sale in little tiny cages. There are also sometimes chickens for sale in tiny cages or very crowded arks. There is more of a 'showing side' of it there. 
I've donated but I do have a problem with some aspects of our reptile shows, I would like to see some changes like more regulations for the traders not just a hire a table and turn up with stock to sell. Everything should be feeding with feeding records and buyers should register or sign for their purchases. And I would like it to be more of a 'show' so we can be proud of what we are visiting and not have that 'not quite right' feeling.


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## Paul F (Aug 17, 2010)

Iulia said:


> This nit picking does my head in.
> 
> OK - so the shows get closed. You didn't go, didn't like them, so don't really care.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, and I'm glad there is someone willing to fight for our rights.

However, these people are not going to go away while we are advocating and promoting battery farming style enclosures. You (anyone) may think it is a separate issue altogether, but it really isn't.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

The Judicial Review will affect all other classes of vertebrate shows and sales that's why it is important. It's not just reptiles, if this goes against the FBH rabbit shows bird shows and fish shows ( if there is such a thing ) will all be deemed illegal.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

colinm said:


> The Judicial Review will affect all other classes of vertebrate shows and sales that's why it is important. It's not just reptiles, if this goes against the FBH rabbit shows bird shows and fish shows ( if there is such a thing ) will all be deemed illegal.



........Koi Carp Shows

........horse shows and sales?...........The New Forest Pony Sales.....not a day out for the faint hearted - but it does award rosettes!

I don't see how they can draw a line with this.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I don't think that it will concern farm animals but all of the hobby type animals.So yes Koi , birds, rabbits, hamsters , guinea pigs etc , etc.


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Paul F said:


> I agree with you, and I'm glad there is someone willing to fight for our rights.
> 
> However, these people are not going to go away while we are advocating and promoting battery farming style enclosures. You (anyone) may think it is a separate issue altogether, but it really isn't.


I do see the connectedness really, and I don't disagree that some aspects of the shows - and reptile husbandry in general, could be improved.

I just feel its not a debate for this moment, and this thread.

The legal action is happening. Unless you actively feel it would be better for the FBH to lose, why would you not donate?


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## iron-clover (Aug 2, 2010)

Donated.
I agree with some of the comments about the 'shows'- I think they should be called breeder's meetings rather than shows, and I definitely don't like the breeders that rock up with dozens of high end Royals, Boas or whatever the flavour of the year is.

Instead I'm supporting the small scale individual sellers which have a few different animals to sell on (they normally have stuff I'm more interested in anyway) and can easily see myself behind a table if I ever end up breeding a couple of less common species for my own enjoyment.

Also as others have said- if we lose the JR it certainly won't stop here- we still have European white/ black list to worry about as well which will cost even more to fight if it comes to it.


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## shaunyboy (Oct 5, 2008)

for fecks sake either donate or don't, it's that simple 


if you like having a bunch of anti's ripping into a part of reptile keeping,then don't donate


if you want FBH to continue fighting,to stop these anti feckers ripping into parts of reptile keeping,then donate





before anyone points out this fight is about shows,i get it...

i just think if the anti's win this case,it will encourage them to go after the hobby all the harder,and those lunatic's don't need any more encouragement 


re details from the op
NO one that's about to go through a high court case is going to discuss details,you never reveal your intentions until your standing in court on the day


FBH need cash to fight this case,so either give them some or don't

bickering amongst ourselves solves feck all,and i bet the anti's are pissing themselves laughing about it


cheers shaun

P.S.my post is not aimed at anyone and nor do i wish to offend anyone


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## Khonsu (May 20, 2009)

CloudForest said:


> perhaps outling _specifically_ what is being reviewed, may help...coz I don't think this is about the hobby in general, and a judicial review is about a point of law not being followed properly during a previous hearing, rather than making a general decision or a change of law...





sharpstrain said:


> As above, also a break down of exactly what the donations would be used to fund, with projected costs.
> 
> I simply don't feel that there is enough simple bullet pointed information about what has happened, what is happening, how much money is needed and exactly what for


Gents - I don't know you but I have seen (and even liked) some of your numerous posts & even to an idiot like me it's clear that whatever personnel reasons you have a "thing" about the FBH. I don't know what it is & frankly I don't care. What I do see as a general forum user is you taking every oppurtunity to try & belittle the FBH & those associated with it. We get it, you don't like them, deal with it.

This post was specifically for those who support the FBH or at least have no axe to grind askingthem to financially contritute to the funds in respect of the upcoming JR. It wasn't a "lets debate the FBH - AGAIN & gripe about our individual petty snipes" If you don't want to contribute, that's fine, it's still a free(ish) society so why don't you make a seperate anti FBH thread where you can stand upon your soap box & provaracate until the cows come home & thosewho wish to can support you & thoose that don't can barrick you to thier hearts content.

Whatwever our own, & I include my own, personnel/petty views are the hobby needs our combined support against the infidels who would have us hung, drawn & quartered for our interest in reptiles. Your constant harping & finger pointing serves no one, no the hobby, not our fellow forum members, the FBH or more inportantly you. You clearly have a lot to offer the hobby but your repeated insinuations just make you look silly so why not grow a pair, swallow your pride & at least abstain from pettyiness even if you don't want to throw a quid in the pot.


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## Colin Clark (Jun 15, 2014)

I would like to thank those that have donated, it is mounting up thank you.

To those of you that would normally attend KP and enjoy the day whether or not you make purchases, and you have not yet donated. Please do so, even if its the fiver you would normally spend to get into KP, this is important and hopefully things will be back to normal after the JR.

Thanks again to those that have donated, and shown their support, its appreciated.

Regards


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

I really don't have a thing about the FBH - in fact I donated some time ago. However I do think that charities should be scrutinised fro how they raise their funds and also what it is used for. I find it hard to believe that there is no detail about what is needed and why, how much has already been raised and what the deficit is. No charity works with out budgetary forecasts and business plans.

In terms of the "shows". They simply aren't they are market places to sell animals, dry goods and food - calling them anything else is quite simply bull:censor:

There is no use people trying to sweep the problems that the hobby faces under th carpet - the solution is not going to happen by donating a tenner to a charity to fight the bad guys.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

My concern is that both parties be it the anti or pro reptile keepers both use the same scare tactics but from different ends of the field to try and achieve their goals.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

sharpstrain said:


> I really don't have a thing about the FBH - in fact I donated some time ago. However I do think that charities should be scrutinised fro how they raise their funds and also what it is used for. I find it hard to believe that there is no detail about what is needed and why, how much has already been raised and what the deficit is. No charity works with out budgetary forecasts and business plans.
> 
> In terms of the "shows". They simply aren't they are market places to sell animals, dry goods and food - calling them anything else is quite simply bull:censor:
> 
> There is no use people trying to sweep the problems that the hobby faces under th carpet - the solution is not going to happen by donating a tenner to a charity to fight the bad guys.


 As Colin stated the FBH is not a charity, its a cooperative of hobbyists who work under the banner to progress the interests the hobby. Obviously not everything that is done and said by them is published on public forums. This is about putting on an united front and not bitching between ourselves about the state of the hobby. 

There are lots of threats to the hobby in the forseeble future:

Positive Lists
Banning of Exotic Pets in Scotland
Invasive species list and others. 

The threat to the hobby is very great and as far as I can see the F.B.H. is the only organisation countering this threat. I havent seen any fish , bird or mammal hobby groups willling to fight their cause as yet.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

colinm said:


> This is about putting on an united front and not bitching between ourselves about the state of the hobby


I am not bitchting I am simply responding to a thread - you however are a little defensive and narrow


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Not really , just answering your questions and as such it means that this thread goes to the top of the list.:whistling2:


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

you aren't answering anything - and the thread going to the top doesn't bother me - as I have said I have already donated and don't have a problem with the FBH - howver thinking that this activity is going to resolve all issue is simply naive and simplistic. 

Sometimes people get so wrapped and fixated on the minutiae that they forget to look at the bigger picture.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

We want to keep reptiles and antis are moving against reptilekeeping. Shows are a vulnerable part of reptilekeeping and regardless of our individual views on shows, the antis ending shows will strengthen their position and it will weaken our rights as reptile keepers in general. It is not rocket science folks, look at the bigger picture. Whether you like shows or have issues with how they are run, their closure at the hands of antis would merely be a stepping stone towards ending reptile keeping completely, and if they manage to close shows they will use this victory as a distorted justification to end reptilekeeping full stop, that is the way they operate. Bitching about shows and how they are run is pointless right now, because if they close all shows there won't be any further need to discuss how they are run or advertised, because there will never be any more, EVER! Even if I hated shows I could still see the need for solidarity among reptile keepers to protect our right to have them. We need to keep antis off our territory, it's as simple as that, don't think that losing shows is the end of it, it's only the beginning.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

How many shows are there in the UK each year? Very few I imagine; the number probably only just gets into double figures. If the shows go it will be a small loss and only a small victory to the so called antis (if it were them who gets them stopped). If however they got them banned from being sold at pet shops then it would be something else but that is unlikely to happen. It's been the same old same old battle for the last 20 years I have been keeping reptiles seriously and both parties are still exactly where they were when all this started back then!


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## AB's (Oct 3, 2009)

My point of view hasn't changed since various members on here were trying to scare monger people in to donating to fbh and the like in relation to the European 'threat'. Shed loads of threads asking for funds then very little info explaining what the funds were used for and the result etc etc.

I won't be donating and totally agree with Sharpstrain in relation to the shows. However I do understand why others may want to donate and it's their money so their perogative. 

Far too many people moaning however against those who have a differing view to the op, this is a forum and the very heart of it is giving an opinion is it not...

I wish you luck but truly believe the JR is not a threat and nothung will come of it.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

MoreliaUK said:


> How many shows are there in the UK each year? Very few I imagine; the number probably only just gets into double figures. If the shows go it will be a small loss and only a small victory to the so called antis (if it were them who gets them stopped). If however they got them banned from being sold at pet shops then it would be something else but that is unlikely to happen. It's been the same old same old battle for the last 20 years I have been keeping reptiles seriously and both parties are still exactly where they were when all this started back then!


So in a short time shows could be gone forever. And I think you'll find that that will be an indication that times have indeed changed, and that kind of change is certainly not positive for the hobby. What happens thereafter and how quickly it could happen is just guesswork. I believe that pushing antis away from shows and protecting our right to keep them is extremely important, because antis closing shows is an indication of what they can achieve. Thinking things will remain deadlocked is naive. If they can close shows and then move onto shops with the wind of invasive species legislation and restricted species lists on their backs we are then faced with real issues, like maybe we can't keep the reptiles we want to anymore. What's the point in allowing them to gain any ground at all? I'd rather push them back now, before they are on top of us.


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

*Tangent time!*

Just a thought. Why do we not have actual "SHOW" aspects to breeders meetings/shows like best snake in show, best species specific specimen and species specific categories such as best morph in show, best example of a morph etc. There are no standards so lets make them!

It would be like the snakey Crufts. We could call it Sloughs. :lol2:


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

There still is the flat earth society too.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

fishboy said:


> Just a thought. Why do we not have actual "SHOW" aspects to breeders meetings/shows like best snake in show, best species specific specimen and species specific categories such as best morph in show, best example of a morph etc. There are no standards so lets make them!
> 
> It would be like the snakey Crufts. We could call it Sloughs. :lol2:


Not going to happen as half of the entrants would be sold by the time the show is over!


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

MoreliaUK said:


> Not going to happen as half of the entrants would be sold by the time the show is over!



Well obviously entries would not be up for sale. TBH i wouldn't want to bring any of my prized breeders into a public area with all the vectors for infection and therein i've just answered my own question. :lol2:


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

MoreliaUK said:


> It's been the same old same old battle for the last 20 years I have been keeping reptiles seriously and both parties are still exactly where they were when all this started back then!


Having been in the hobby since 1986. Back then nearly every county had a reptile club or society, and nearly all of them ran an annual show. Being on the committee of one society that ran a large show in two school halls, with private and commercial traders present, we were targeted each year by one or more anti-reptile group. Back then we were granted a traders licence for the day which covered the location, but then this privilege was revoked, however it only prevented official traders selling but still allowed private individuals selling surplus stock that they had bred. 

Not sure if was a lack of interest or simply reptile keeping had peaked, but it seemed that as we moved into the 21st century a lot of societies folded, and thus the number of shows declined, but I never recall that it was due to some group of anti's. Indecently, I do recall that Cliford Warwick was found guilty back in the 1990's of crime involving reptiles. I can't recall if it was incorrect importation paperwork, or some other issue, but it did involve bringing in reptiles into the UK which were to be sold to private collectors via his own reptile shop. Seems strange now that he is campaigning against the trade.

So here we are 25 or so years on and nothing much has changed, other than the BHS is going to have its day in court and we will hopefully have something clearly defined in law. I think everyone is getting really wound up of what may or may not happen in future. How would the government implement any ban on keeping exotics given the number of snakes and lizards in captivity at the moment. If they suggest licensing them it won't work (just look how they tried that with the dangerous dog act), and an overnight ban wouldn't do anything for the antis as a lot of animals would suffer if they had to be destroyed or were simply abandoned. Heck if that happens we would end up like the US only with a large UK population of Corn and Rat snakes rather than Burms!


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

Malc said:


> Having been in the hobby since 1986. Back then nearly every county had a reptile club or society, and nearly all of them ran an annual show. Being on the committee of one society that ran a large show in two school halls, with private and commercial traders present, we were targeted each year by one or more anti-reptile group. Back then we were granted a traders licence for the day which covered the location, but then this privilege was revoked, however it only prevented official traders selling but still allowed private individuals selling surplus stock that they had bred.
> 
> Not sure if was a lack of interest or simply reptile keeping had peaked, but it seemed that as we moved into the 21st century a lot of societies folded, and thus the number of shows declined, but I never recall that it was due to some group of anti's. Indecently, I do recall that Cliford Warwick was found guilty back in the 1990's of crime involving reptiles. I can't recall if it was incorrect importation paperwork, or some other issue, but it did involve bringing in reptiles into the UK which were to be sold to private collectors via his own reptile shop. Seems strange now that he is campaigning against the trade.
> 
> So here we are 25 or so years on and nothing much has changed, other than the BHS is going to have its day in court and we will hopefully have something clearly defined in law. I think everyone is getting really wound up of what may or may not happen in future. How would the government implement any ban on keeping exotics given the number of snakes and lizards in captivity at the moment. If they suggest licensing them it won't work (just look how they tried that with the dangerous dog act), and an overnight ban wouldn't do anything for the antis as a lot of animals would suffer if they had to be destroyed or were simply abandoned. Heck if that happens we would end up like the US only with a large UK population of Corn and Rat snakes rather than Burms!


Do you think that not knowing exactly what will happen in the future is a justification for doing nothing?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

colinm said:


> There still is the flat earth society too.


Oh dear, I actually was debating with one the other day on an atheist page on facebook, not that I am an atheist just to clarify, one of his arguments was this. 

The earth is supposed to spin at the speed of 1,038 miles per hour, if that was true, a human would be whirled away at a speed that fast, yet, they stand still. 

Can you beleive that!!!! :gasp::lol2:
:no1:

I actually laughed for days.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

colinm said:


> There still is the flat earth society too.



Are you a member ?


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

AB's said:


> but truly believe the JR is not a threat and nothung will come of it.


you really might want to take that down before too many people read it - not that many people seem to be READING the points on this thread

you can't have NOTHING COME OF a judicial review. The judge will decide if the decision was made in a lawful manner, or not. He can't say he doesn't care and wants to go home and watch Eastenders. 

Not only that, but the decision will be used as a precedent for future issues.

If you think it is a small thing you are seriously misinformed.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> Do you think that not knowing exactly what will happen in the future is a justification for doing nothing?


Why worry unduly over something that may never happen. As far as I can tell the reason behind this judicial review is to clarify the position on reptile shows so that councils etc can make definitive decisions when approached by a society or individual to host one at a venue. I can't find anything to suggest it looking at the rights of individuals to keep reptiles in their own home. If I'm wrong then please direct me to the website that lists the matters that will be discussed on the day.

It's not a case of doing nothing. The point I was trying to get over was that everyone thought that this sort of thing would happen 25 years ago, yet here we are, still keeping snakes and lizards, and effectively nothing else has changed in that time.


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## AB's (Oct 3, 2009)

Iulia said:


> you really might want to take that down before too many people read it - not that many people seem to be READING the points on this thread
> 
> you can't have NOTHING COME OF a judicial review. The judge will decide if the decision was made in a lawful manner, or not. He can't say he doesn't care and wants to go home and watch Eastenders.
> 
> ...


Why would I want to take it down... it's my opinion!! Just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm right or wrong and totally entitled to write what I feel.

I think you know exactly what I meant re the JR but to clear it up I honestly don't think there is anything to worry about.

Nobody is missing the point of the original thread but this is a forum and some people disagree and post their view.

Do you remember all the scare mongering and fund raising that went on here a few years back in relation to the European Invasive species....


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

I try always to be polite because I think rudeness and personal attacks are as out of place on the internet as they are in the home or the workplace ...

I felt you wrote something that read really rather foolish. 

its not to do with opinion - its to do with the law and the way it works. My opinion is the law system is shockingly crap but does the law give a shit what my opinion is? 

If you mean you are confident the judge will rule in favour of the FBH - well, that wasn't clear from your original comment, but I wish I shared your confidence. I have seem some DREADFUL judgements come from JR. Or from pre JR judgements. 

And the bottom line is it sometimes simply boils down to who pays the best lawyers, and who has the deepest pockets.

A council can get their hands on a shit load of money if their back is against the wall. 

Just something to think about : victory:


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

How many reptile markets/shows are organised and run by the FBH? Colin has already stated that they are not a charity so maybe they are a profit making organisation. How much do they stand to lose if the shows/ markets are cancelled?

Seems more like the self preservation society!


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## Colin Clark (Jun 15, 2014)

MoreliaUK said:


> How many reptile markets/shows are organised and run by the FBH? Colin has already stated that they are not a charity so maybe they are a profit making organisation. How much do they stand to lose if the shows/ markets are cancelled?
> 
> Seems more like the self preservation society!


Hi,

Let me answer that question;

We are not a charity, nor are we a profit making organisation. Our funds come from the affiliation fees of the societies (£50 per year regardless of membership numbers) and donations.
Admittedly, the joint society expo/show/fayre/breeders meeting what ever you want to call it at KP adds to our funds.
These funds are used to defend the rights of reptile keepers, from 2012 to date the FBH has spent over £54K on legal fees defending reptile keepers rights.
This Judicial Review is extremely important - google judicial review. Those that are saying nothing will change, it wont happen are sticking their heads in the sand. This review will be taking place on the 5th June 2015. 

Sometimes I wonder why, we put in the hours in to defend people, that kick us in the crotch at every opportunity. The FBH is run by volunteers, we do not get a penny of the funds.


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

How much do the fbh raise from each Donny show,as there is a compulsory donation included in table price
What happened to the costs and expenses awarded for the last Donny court case,
Lots of money donated for that case


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## James5012 (Sep 6, 2010)

And the majority of us very much appreciate it.
Some people just enjoy ignoring what is happening in the real world!



Colin Clark said:


> Hi,
> 
> Let me answer that question;
> 
> ...


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## Colin Clark (Jun 15, 2014)

nelly1 said:


> How much do the fbh raise from each Donny show,as there is a compulsory donation included in table price
> What happened to the costs and expenses awarded for the last Donny court case,
> Lots of money donated for that case


Nelly1

Thank you. The costs we got back were approximately £12K, that was not included in the £54K quoted.

The IHS organise & run the Doncaster shows not the FBH, and yes, they do place a levy on bookings. Perhaps you should consult the IHS regarding this?

All we are asking is for reptile keepers to unite and defend our rights.
Some on here are still attacking the FBH, thats their prerogative, but thats playing into the hands of those that not only want shows stopped, but the keeping of reptiles and amphibians.

My previous post - typo the JR is the 4th June 2015, not the 5th, finger slipped.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Colin Clark said:


> Hi,
> 
> This Judicial Review is extremely important - google judicial review. Those that are saying nothing will change, it wont happen are sticking their heads in the sand. This review will be taking place on the 5th June 2015.
> .


Colin, Can you actually list in simple bullet points (or a simple sentence or two) exactly what this review is to cover ? Maybe then people will be better informed to make decisions on supporting the FBH, be that financially or by putting a name to whichever petition etc may be required to voice our support. As stated, I was under the impression that this was to set a legal guideline for councils and show organisers when it comes to holding events like Doncaster. It's no good simply saying we should all support the BHS and those that don't and bury their heads in the sand will regret it without clarification.

As a side note, I can remember back in the early '90s a proposal to place more reptiles on CITES and tighter controls on importation of reptiles, including Royals.... but twenty years later wild farmed / caught royals are still being imported, even though Royals have since been bred in captivity and in many morphs. At the time everyone was panicking on how this legislation (if passed) would affect those who had animals on this list. But again, 20 years later there is no requirement to have paperwork for the Royals I keep. We can't predict what may happen in the future, and it may well be that in 20 years from now there are tighter restrictions on things reptilian, but lets stop panicking about that now but rather cross that bridge when we come to it.


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

Colin Clark said:


> Nelly1
> 
> Thank you. The costs we got back were approximately £12K, that was not included in the £54K quoted.
> 
> ...


The FBH should know the amount of any type of donation given to them.
Plus is it true the the Fbh refused the costs awarded against Donny council.
Plus for the above case,fund raising was done on line and at shows how much did that , bring in.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

Malc said:


> Colin, Can you actually list in simple bullet points (or a simple sentence or two) exactly what this review is to cover ? Maybe then people will be better informed to make decisions on supporting the FBH, be that financially or by putting a name to whichever petition etc may be required to voice our support. As stated, I was under the impression that this was to set a legal guideline for councils and show organisers when it comes to holding events like Doncaster. It's no good simply saying we should all support the BHS and those that don't and bury their heads in the sand will regret it without clarification.
> 
> As a side note, I can remember back in the early '90s a proposal to place more reptiles on CITES and tighter controls on importation of reptiles, including Royals.... but twenty years later wild farmed / caught royals are still being imported, even though Royals have since been bred in captivity and in many morphs. At the time everyone was panicking on how this legislation (if passed) would affect those who had animals on this list. But again, 20 years later there is no requirement to have paperwork for the Royals I keep. We can't predict what may happen in the future, and it may well be that in 20 years from now there are tighter restrictions on things reptilian, but lets stop panicking about that now but rather cross that bridge when we come to it.


Do you know what the consequences will be for the reptile community if the judicial review which is only in four months goes against us? Because we are at that bridge now.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> Do you know what the consequences will be for the reptile community if the judicial review which is only in four months goes against us? Because we are at that bridge now.


Did you not read my post :bash:

I've asked Colin to state what it will cover. I've also stated what I believe it covers, and would welcome someone to correct me if I'm wrong.

Heck there is no mention of this review on the BHS, or FBH main website - Colins post was the first I heard about it !


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

Malc said:


> Did you not read my post :bash:
> 
> I've asked Colin to state what it will cover. I've also stated what I believe it covers, and would welcome someone to correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Heck there is no mention of this review on the BHS, or FBH main website - Colins post was the first I heard about it !


I have read your posts and that's why I'm asking you what you think will happen if the judicial review goes agains us in 4 months. You've said a lot of things about what has happened in the past and you've said there is no point in worrying about anything until we need to cross that bridge. Well that bridge is here now. So as you think we shouldn't be worrying, I'll ask you again, what do YOU think will happen if the judicial review goes against us in 4 months? Because you seem to be saying it's no big deal and we should all put our slippers on and relax in front of the telly. So please answer the question, if it does not go our way in June, what will the impact be on reptilekeeping?


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

*Snake steaks on the menu?*



Uromastyxman said:


> o please answer the question, if it does not go our way in June, what will the impact be on reptilekeeping?


He does not know, you do not know, the anti reptile lobby do not know and neither do the FBH or even David Cameron and the Lord Almighty.

Stop scaremongering :devil:


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> I have read your posts and that's why I'm asking you what you think will happen if the judicial review goes agains us in 4 months. You've said a lot of things about what has happened in the past and you've said there is no point in worrying about anything until we need to cross that bridge. Well that bridge is here now. So as you think we shouldn't be worrying, I'll ask you again, what do YOU think will happen if the judicial review goes against us in 4 months? Because you seem to be saying it's no big deal and we should all put our slippers on and relax in front of the telly. So please answer the question, if it does not go our way in June, what will the impact be on reptilekeeping?


I thought this review is to see if the arun district council acted within the law, now I don't know much about the law, but how would this determine if other shows were legal?
Plus I do believe that my other questions need answering honestly and clearly before I decide if to make a donation again


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

MoreliaUK said:


> He does not know, you do not know, the anti reptile lobby do not know and neither do the FBH or even David Cameron and the Lord Almighty.
> 
> Stop scaremongering :devil:


Hang on let me get my crystal ball out :whistling2:



Uromastyxman said:


> I'll ask you again, what do YOU think will happen if the judicial review goes against us in 4 months? Because you seem to be saying it's no big deal and we should all put our slippers on and relax in front of the telly. So please answer the question, if it does not go our way in June, what will the impact be on reptilekeeping?


FFS - 



> I've asked Colin to state what it will cover. I've also stated what I believe it covers, and would welcome someone to correct me if I'm wrong


Let me turn the tables... care to advise me what the review will cover and how it will affect me (us) keeping reptiles ? 

I like Nelly seem to believe it is to set guidelines on how shows in the UK may be run. The only impact I can see is that if it was upheld, the impact would be no more shows.... but that doesn't directly affect me.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

So they ban reptile shows, what next? 

Stop people keeping reptiles? Have amnesty bins to put your reptiles into prior to them being sent off for lethal injections? I think not.

Worst that is ever going to happen is licensing of keeping reptiles. They cannot do it for dangerous dogs so doing it for pet reptiles (the majority which cannot even be considered as invasive species) will never happen.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

MoreliaUK said:


> He does not know, you do not know, the anti reptile lobby do not know and neither do the FBH or even David Cameron and the Lord Almighty.
> 
> Stop scaremongering :devil:


What I do know is that kempton 2015 is not happening and that the judicial review will impact reptilekeeping in some way. I would like kempton and other shows to continue, that much I DO KNOW. The continued closing down of reptile events by antis is a fact and their desire to end reptilekeeping is a fact. People saying don't worry it's not a big deal when they don't appear to even understand the consequences of what is happening now is rather obtuse in my opinion. If people don't want to contribute to the judicial review fund they don't have to, but the people fighting for us to win that judicial review are the only ones taking the antis on. Armchair experts who think there's no point in doing anything seem to think their right to continue to keep reptiles as they always have will be safeguarded and protected by the reptile fairies at the bottom of the garden. I do not think that keeping the antis at bay and speculating about the possibility of future restrictions caused by their lobbying is scaremongering, I do however think that saying it's not worth worrying about it and contributing no useful strategy to a problem that is happening now is ignorant, and it doesn't help my rights to keep my reptiles.


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

MoreliaUK said:


> How many shows are there in the UK each year? Very few I imagine; the number probably only just gets into double figures. If the shows go it will be a small loss and only a small victory to the so called antis (if it were them who gets them stopped). If however they got them banned from being sold at pet shops then it would be something else but that is unlikely to happen. It's been the same old same old battle for the last 20 years I have been keeping reptiles seriously and both parties are still exactly where they were when all this started back then!


 I'd rather see a 20 year battle than no battle at all.


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

MoreliaUK said:


> So they ban reptile shows, what next?
> 
> Stop people keeping reptiles? Have amnesty bins to put your reptiles into prior to them being sent off for lethal injections? I think not.
> 
> Worst that is ever going to happen is licensing of keeping reptiles. They cannot do it for dangerous dogs so doing it for pet reptiles (the majority which cannot even be considered as invasive species) will never happen.


 

The antis have told me their goal is small victory's, bit by bit is their plan, they know they cannot just close down shops.

To some like yourself, shows mean nothing to your hobby, to others they enjoy them, why can't we respect this ? I think I remember meeting you at a show, seemed like you were enjoying it ?

If they win, what next ? pet shops won't be the next target, internet sales and imports will be the next target in my opinion.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Uromastyxman said:


> What I do know is that kempton 2015 is not happening and that the judicial review will impact reptilekeeping in some way.


OK, I've done more googling and read some old threads on here and other forums. The only impact I can see, should it go in favour of the council is that shows will eventually cease. If the review does go in favour of the council I can't see how this can be linked to stopping you or any of us keeping reptiles. This review (again as far as I can see) will not legislate the legality on keeping and breeding reptiles.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Pete Q said:


> If they win, what next ? pet shops won't be the next target, internet sales and imports will be the next target in my opinion.


In my opinion I don't think it will get that bad. Businesses pay taxes, be that VAT, income etc - with a value of around £200m for the reptile trade in the UK I can't see the government quick to cut off such a vital source of income. Ok I granted that the levels of taxation is no where near that on cigarettes and tobacco, which is why even after all the efforts of campaigners you can still purchase **** from you local corner shop, but given the impact such legislation on retailers would have to the economy I can't see it happening - but this is my view.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

Malc said:


> OK, I've done more googling and read some old threads on here and other forums. The only impact I can see, should it go in favour of the council is that shows will eventually cease. If the review does go in favour of the council I can't see how this can be linked to stopping you or any of us keeping reptiles. This review (again as far as I can see) will not legislate the legality on keeping and breeding reptiles.


The antis will set a goal and apply a strategy to achieve that goal. They start with shows because they are an obvious first target, and they seem to have been quite successful in that goal. If reptile shows end they will then move their attention to other areas in reptile keeping and try to erode and destroy those. 
who knows what they'll be able to achieve and where they'll fail. There are all manner of strategies they could employ to destroy their targets, I know what I would do if it were me, the hobby is hardly bulletproof regarding ethics and questionable practices. They will hit weak targets, malpractice in shops, cage sizes, mass importation, animal hoarding, and they will gather negative anti reptilekeeping propaganda on route. Your inability to see a direct link between the current battle to protect shows and how this could impact your right and my right to keep reptiles a little further down the line is rather naive. Reptiles are not dogs, we will not be afforded the same protection as dog owners. They will erode reptilekeeping if we don't fight them now. Saying they won't get far because they don't have the legs is shortsighted. You do nothing if you like. Let other people deal with it. I'd like kempton back. Maybe you don't care, but a lot of people do.


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

Malc said:


> In my opinion I don't think it will get that bad. Businesses pay taxes, be that VAT, income etc - with a value of around £200m for the reptile trade in the UK I can't see the government quick to cut off such a vital source of income. Ok I granted that the levels of taxation is no where near that on cigarettes and tobacco, which is why even after all the efforts of campaigners you can still purchase **** from you local corner shop, but given the impact such legislation on retailers would have to the economy I can't see it happening - but this is my view.


 Well it is just that Malc, opinions, we don't know for sure what success they may have.

My opinion has always been lets stand united and fight with all we have.

Surely doing nothing and just arguing with each other is not helping.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

Pete Q said:


> To some like yourself, shows mean nothing to your hobby, to others they enjoy them, why can't we respect this ? I think I remember meeting you at a show, seemed like you were enjoying it ?


I do not attend UK reptile markets/shows in any capacity any more and unfortunately have not met you. The last ones I attended were the Maidstone one in 2008 and prior to that an IHS show in Walsall in the 90s.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.​


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

SWMorelia said:


> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Socialist.
> Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
> ...


Dun Dun duuuunnnn


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## Bruce185 (Oct 24, 2008)

I was just about to post the same poem! Well done! 

People, we must unite. If we don't like how "shows/ markets / whatever" are run, then we, as a hobby and individual hobbyist should "regulate" that. Perhaps by voting with our wallets and only buying from breeders who's husbandry we agree with. However, we cannot have others just walk in and tell us what we can and cannot do. First it will be the shows, then it will be the sale of reptiles, then it will be the keeping of them. We live in the UK because we value democracy. As long as what we are doing is not harming others (people and animals) we must be free to do it. 

BW,
Bruce


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

sharpstrain said:


> Dun Dun duuuunnnn


Yeh, sorry.. Maybe I should of added a link so you could realise why this poem is poignant to this subject.... My bad...


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

SWMorelia said:


> Yeh, sorry.. Maybe I should of added a link so you could realise why this poem is poignant to this subject.... My bad...



I understand the poem completely - I actually think it is somewhat disrespectful to use it in this context


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## Pete Q (Dec 4, 2007)

MoreliaUK said:


> I do not attend UK reptile markets/shows in any capacity any more and unfortunately have not met you. The last ones I attended were the Maidstone one in 2008 and prior to that an IHS show in Walsall in the 90s.


Ok my mistake, thought we had.

Maybe try going again, while there is any, great place to meet people and share.

I know you would post back and say what a cruel place they are and you would never go again, small boxes, battery you said.

Just put yourself in the antis shoes for a second, you and I keep reptiles in a box, we as a hobby sometimes get into arguments about my box is bigger than your box, but it is a box.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

Pete Q said:


> Maybe try going again, while there is any, great place to meet people and share.


I found that with the reptile shops and they are there all the time. JG Animals is Streatham used to be a hive of activity on a Saurday morning and John was the reptile Oracle :notworthy:


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Keep on donating people

Federation of British Herpetologists - Reptiles for Life!


: victory:


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## Paul F (Aug 17, 2010)

Pete Q said:


> Ok my mistake, thought we had.
> 
> Maybe try going again, while there is any, great place to meet people and share.
> 
> ...


Actually it was me that mentioned battery farming and it was taken a little out of context.
We are digressing a bit from the thread here, but I will explain a little;
I have nothing against "reptile shows" though I have never been to one. I think we should all retain the right to go if we wish, and not be dictated to by others.
I have nothing against the FBH and am glad they are fighting for us, we need someone to represent our side of the argument. I have no problem with them requesting donations to fight our corner. A little more information would not have gone amiss though for those of us with our heads in the sand (me, not others.)
I do not wish this to digress into a viv/rub debate as it wasn't my point.
But I firmly believe that while we as a hobby are promoting keeping reptiles in rack systems, where you cannot even see the animals you are keeping, the "general public" will be persuaded by the anti's to believe that this is just the same as "battery farming." If not that, then animal hoarding rather than "pet keeping" (again, lets not digress into the "pet" debate, we are concerned with the public's perception, not our own!)
If we are really worried about the stance the anti's are taking, we should get down to the unpleasant job of getting our house in order at the same time, and try and set some "universal standards". I am not naive enough to believe people will stick to them.

As I have said many times, I don't care how others keep their snakes or why.


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## Colin Clark (Jun 15, 2014)

Iulia said:


> Keep on donating people
> 
> Federation of British Herpetologists - Reptiles for Life!
> 
> ...



Thank you.

Now,

This will be my last post, because frankly I am tired of the myopic individuals posting on this site.

The Judicial Review taking place on the 4th June 2015 at the high court in London is being held so that a judge can decide whether or not breeders meetings are; LEGAL or NOT.

He he decideds not, then all breeders meetings of vertabrate animals from mice to pidgeons will be deemed illegal. NO more shows every, the anti's score big time before moving on to the next step - E Toland of the APA stated on national TV that they wanted all reptile keeping in the UK stopped.

If he decides they are legal, then shows can go ahead, and the FBH can concentrate on fighting for YOUR rights to keep YOUR animals, against whatever is thrown at us next.

If you cannot understand that, then I will not waste anymore of my free time.

Thank you again to all that have supported us, and continue to do so.

Regards


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## Bombjack (Jan 16, 2015)

SWMorelia said:


> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Socialist.
> Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
> ...


wow,now i've seen it all:crazy::crazy::crazy:


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## iron-clover (Aug 2, 2010)

Bombjack said:


> wow,now i've seen it all:crazy::crazy::crazy:


It's just Godwin's Law being played out- happens with any long internet thread.
It's really sad it's played out this time though.


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## Bombjack (Jan 16, 2015)

iron-clover said:


> It's just Godwin's Law being played out- happens with any long internet thread.
> It's really sad it's played out this time though.


Oh first time for me! still think its:crazy::crazy::crazy:


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## Khonsu (May 20, 2009)

Bloddy, bloody hell, some poeple.

In a very perverse sort of way I hope the anti's win hands down then we can point smuggly all those who calmy sit with thier heads up their respective backsides saying nothing to worry about, talking fiddling whilst Rome burns.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Moved to lizards. Look for Colin Clark`s bullit points to tell you why this is necessary.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Paul F said:


> Actually it was me that mentioned battery farming and it was taken a little out of context.
> We are digressing a bit from the thread here, but I will explain a little;
> I have nothing against "reptile shows" though I have never been to one. I think we should all retain the right to go if we wish, and not be dictated to by others.
> I have nothing against the FBH and am glad they are fighting for us, we need someone to represent our side of the argument. I have no problem with them requesting donations to fight our corner. A little more information would not have gone amiss though for those of us with our heads in the sand (me, not others.)
> ...


That is exactly what the FBH, IHS, BHS have been trying to do but it keeps getting messed up by the Antis.

We said that all stall holders had to provide care sheets. The Antis claimed in court that it made the sellers professional and so it had to stop.

We said everyone had to supply contact details with each sale. The Antis said in court that it was the action of a professional business so it had to stop.

Basically every time we try to improve something they make some claim that messes it up and things would be a lot better now if we didn't have to waste so much time fighting for our rights rather than working on improving the hobby.

Gordon
FBH VC


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Natrix said:


> sharpstrain said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a charity how they intend to use the funds that they are asking me to donate. In fact it think it is the responsible thing to do. I certainly won't be making any donations without it.
> ...


I'm just bringing this forward before others start saying there is no explanation of what it's all about and what's going on.

Gordon
FBH VC


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## AB's (Oct 3, 2009)

I'm curious... just looked on the fbh website and the latest info is from 2012, also no Updates that I could find in relation to the last wave of fundraising ie invasive species etc. Why is that?


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## Selecta (May 10, 2014)

Natrix said:


> That is exactly what the FBH, IHS, BHS have been trying to do but it keeps getting messed up by the Antis.
> 
> We said that all stall holders had to provide care sheets. The Antis claimed in court that it made the sellers professional and so it had to stop.
> 
> ...


Stop blaming the antis and everyone else. The show organisers and the FBH are fully aware of the flipping, the traders and WC stuff etc that goes on at the shows but does nothing about it. Who's fault is it when the shows get pulled up?


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## Selecta (May 10, 2014)

Selecta said:


> Stop blaming the antis and everyone else. The show organisers and the FBH are fully aware of the flipping, the traders and WC stuff etc that goes on at the shows but does nothing about it. Who's fault is it when the shows get pulled up?


Please don't insult me by saying this is not true either.


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## MoreliaUK (Aug 16, 2010)

AB's said:


> I'm curious... just looked on the fbh website and the latest info is from 2012, also no Updates that I could find in relation to the last wave of fundraising ie invasive species etc. Why is that?


The APA website has not had any real updates either since 2013. Seems they stick to facebook instead of their website as what they post will not be stored in the web archives if kept to facebook if they ever choose to delete.


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## Dan_S (Aug 3, 2009)

Have just sent a donation on behalf of the appathetic on here who can't be bothered to send one themselves! 

The squabling on this thread is probably the worst I've encountered in quite some time - seriously people, grow up!! It's no wonder scum like E. Toland and W. Clifford are able to run rings around us!

Here's hoping for a good outcome in June!


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## AB's (Oct 3, 2009)

Dan_S said:


> Have just sent a donation on behalf of the appathetic on here who can't be bothered to send one themselves!
> 
> The squabling on this thread is probably the worst I've encountered in quite some time - seriously people, grow up!! It's no wonder scum like E. Toland and W. Clifford are able to run rings around us!
> 
> Here's hoping for a good outcome in June!


It's not squabbling it's a debate... on a forum...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

AB's said:


> It's not squabbling it's a debate... on a forum...


Only up ontil your comment. :lol2:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Selecta said:


> Stop blaming the antis and everyone else. The show organisers and the FBH are fully aware of the flipping, the traders and WC stuff etc that goes on at the shows but does nothing about it. Who's fault is it when the shows get pulled up?


I'm sorry but you don't seem to have a ruddy clue about what we are fighting against, how the shows work and the purpose of the Judicial Review.

We have been fighting to keep the shows going for the last twenty years and at no point has a show been stopped due to flipping or WC animals being present. These are not part of the legal issues aimed at shows by the antis. Flipping as you call it, may or may not be legal depending on how you read the 1983 amendment about breeders buying in and passing on the animals they choose not to breed from and there is no law against selling WC animals at a show. We choose to discourage it as it suggests the person is a trader but again it could be a breeder passing on unwanted breeding stock. While you may not like these two issues and we do try and discourage them, they are not right at the top of our concerns at the moment
As for deciding at what point a hobbyist becomes a trader, the law does not provide a clear tipping point, meaning that some very serious hobbyists and some amateur traders overlap.

Now one of the big reasons for the Judicial Review is to get a court ruling on the law and clarification on how to label the different activities of the people attending. 
Basically we are trying to get a clear legal decision on the things you are bitching about so that we can go ahead with shows that are exactly to the letter of the law and then we can start improving things all around.

I would suggest that rather than playing key board warriors and attacking the FBH you should be getting behind us and supporting us in our attempt to get this mess sorted out.

Gordon Glasson
FBH Vice Chairman


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## Selecta (May 10, 2014)

Natrix said:


> I'm sorry but you don't seem to have a ruddy clue about what we are fighting against, how the shows work and the purpose of the Judicial Review.
> 
> We have been fighting to keep the shows going for the last twenty years and at no point has a show been stopped due to flipping or WC animals being present. These are not part of the legal issues aimed at shows by the antis. Flipping as you call it, may or may not be legal depending on how you read the 1983 amendment about breeders buying in and passing on the animals they choose not to breed from and there is no law against selling WC animals at a show. We choose to discourage it as it suggests the person is a trader but again it could be a breeder passing on unwanted breeding stock. While you may not like these two issues and we do try and discourage them, they are not right at the top of our concerns at the moment
> As for deciding at what point a hobbyist becomes a trader, the law does not provide a clear tipping point, meaning that some very serious hobbyists and some amateur traders overlap.
> ...


Why should I get behind you when you don't even have the balls to tell it like it is. Sort your own mess out first then you may get my support but if you carry on letting the things I mentioned go on at the shows you wont. Private breeders meetings are what they are supposed to be not public pet reptile shops. The animals being sold are supposed to be surplus bred by the seller, not bought in Europe and sold the next week which is what one of your committee members was doing with his mate. So who is causing issues at the shows?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Selecta said:


> Why should I get behind you when you don't even have the balls to tell it like it is. Sort your own mess out first then you may get my support but if you carry on letting the things I mentioned go on at the shows you wont. Private breeders meetings are what they are supposed to be not public pet reptile shops. The animals being sold are supposed to be surplus bred by the seller, not bought in Europe and sold the next week which is what one of your committee members was doing with his mate. So who is causing issues at the shows?


Perhaps you would like to carry on with this conversation with Gordon via pm as its getting rather tiresome now.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Selecta said:


> Why should I get behind you when you don't even have the balls to tell it like it is. Sort your own mess out first then you may get my support but if you carry on letting the things I mentioned go on at the shows you wont. Private breeders meetings are what they are supposed to be not public pet reptile shops. The animals being sold are supposed to be surplus bred by the seller, not bought in Europe and sold the next week which is what one of your committee members was doing with his mate. So who is causing issues at the shows?


I think your very mis-informed about what this discussion is about tbh. 
I don't really think your telling it as it is, your way off topic! :lol2:


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## Selecta (May 10, 2014)

colinm said:


> Perhaps you would like to carry on with this conversation with Gordon via pm as its getting rather tiresome now.


Why should it go private, I have nothing to hide from the hobby keepers on here, they should know whats been going on, like the excuse of not being able to tell who should be classed as a trader and not be let to use the shows as their own private pet shop. It does not take someone with the IQ of Einstein, it takes Honesty and Integrity( now where have I seen that before:whistling2


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Selecta said:


> Why should it go private, I have nothing to hide from the hobby keepers on here, they should know whats been going on, like the excuse of not being able to tell who should be classed as a trader and not be let to use the shows as their own private pet shop. It does not take someone with the IQ of Einstein, it takes Honesty and Integrity( now where have I seen that before:whistling2


Why not just make another topic, OR take it to PM, either one I am sure will be fine, and have a separate discussion on that, and try to keep this one on topic? 

: victory:


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Selecta said:


> Why should it go private, I have nothing to hide from the hobby keepers on here, they should know whats been going on, like the excuse of not being able to tell who should be classed as a trader and not be let to use the shows as their own private pet shop. It does not take someone with the IQ of Einstein, it takes Honesty and Integrity( now where have I seen that before:whistling2


It doesn't take the brain of Einstein to realise that throwing round accusations, however irrelevant they may be, when there is legal action taking place, is a monumentally short sighted, selfish and frankly stupid thing to do.

Unless you are deliberately trying to sabotage?


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## Selecta (May 10, 2014)

Iulia said:


> It doesn't take the brain of Einstein to realise that throwing round accusations, however irrelevant they may be, when there is legal action taking place, is a monumentally short sighted, selfish and frankly stupid thing to do.
> 
> Unless you are deliberately trying to sabotage?


I am not throwing around accusations, its fact. Don't like it then make sure its not happening instead of blindly listening to those who are doing it. Why were 2( to my knowledge, could be more) illegal traders found guilty at court( pleaded or otherwise) if the shows are run properly? oh yeah, its everyone else's fault except the people who let it go on. The only selfish people are those using the shows for their and their friends own gains and sod anybody else who gets busted.I don't need to sabotage anything, the FBH and the organisers are doing a damn good job themselves of wrecking the shows. Remember, Honesty and Integrity: victory:


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

The problem is, it is impossible to defend something that is deceptive and dishonest. I for one perosnally know several commercial breeders who attend and have stalls at shows. I also knwo people who go to Hamm and houten to buy animals to sell at UK "shows". Pretending it doesn't happen and getting angry at people that point it out, simply adds fuel and power to the antis. Truth is truth, some people don't like it and it is convenient to ignore it, but truth is still truth


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

The purpose of this thread is to encourage people to donate to the FBH, to support the ongoing legal action.

What possible benefit is there in making a post that puts people off doing this?

What possible benefit to any of you as reptile owners?

If this JR is lost, then the first result is we lose the shows. Which may not bother you personally, but would be a genuine loss to the reptile community. IMO. There will be no opportunity to improve them ever, they'll be toast. 

It will also undoubtedly be a huge encouragement and shot in the arm to the antis. Which there is little doubt they would use in any way possible, so the long term ramifications are unknown. But they are unlikely to be positive.

If they can say they were right about this, it makes their position so much stronger in all the OTHER things they are saying are right.

What a victory for them.

So you would actually rather the legal action was lost?

I am supporting the legal action regardless of whatever issues there undoubtedly are with the shows, because I see only bad things for me, as a reptile owner, if we lose.


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

sharpstrain said:


> Pretending it doesn't happen and getting angry at people that point it out, simply adds fuel and power to the antis.


Way more fuel will be given to the antis by the kudos of wining a judicial review than anything I could possibly write here or anywhere. 

I never said there were no issues with the shows. But I would rather keep them, and fix them, than lose them to the bunch of people trying to stop us keeping reps at all.

All this finger pointing and 'I told you so' does nothing to help.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

The problem is that instead of questioning and examining, people think that they can buy an answer to problems. Giving a tenner to the FBH won't resolve the problems. I myself have already donated and as such I belive that gives me the right to comment and question. In fact I think it is important that we do, instead of just blindly donating a few quid and then forgetting about it. We need to look at ourselves before we can truly stand up for and protect our hobby. People just don't like to think about this becuase it is too challenging and inconvenient.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Selecta said:


> I am not throwing around accusations, its fact. Don't like it then make sure its not happening instead of blindly listening to those who are doing it. Why were 2( to my knowledge, could be more) illegal traders found guilty at court( pleaded or otherwise) if the shows are run properly? oh yeah, its everyone else's fault except the people who let it go on. The only selfish people are those using the shows for their and their friends own gains and sod anybody else who gets busted.I don't need to sabotage anything, the FBH and the organisers are doing a damn good job themselves of wrecking the shows. Remember, Honesty and Integrity: victory:


Oh dear, you really don't have a clue do you?

I feel any attempt by me to try and explain things will be ignored and just lead to more outbursts from you, so I won't bother trying.

Please do us all a favour and go and find out for yourself what the facts are before spouting any more rubbish.

Gordon


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

Natrix said:


> Oh dear, you really don't have a clue do you?
> 
> I feel any attempt by me to try and explain things will be ignored and just lead to more outbursts from you, so I won't bother trying.
> 
> ...


Oh dear


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

sharpstrain said:


> Giving a tenner to the FBH won't resolve the problems.


No. Agreed.

But making people feel ambivalent or nervous about giving the tenner when the tenner is going towards what may be a landmark legal ruling won't resolve problems either ...


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

sharpstrain said:


> The problem is that instead of questioning and examining, people think that they can buy an answer to problems. Giving a tenner to the FBH won't resolve the problems. I myself have already donated and as such I belive that gives me the right to comment and question. In fact I think it is important that we do, instead of just blindly donating a few quid and then forgetting about it. We need to look at ourselves before we can truly stand up for and protect our hobby. People just don't like to think about this becuase it is too challenging and inconvenient.


Before you start attacking the FBH, the shows and the organisers for what you perceive to be illegal activity, you need to find out what is legal and what is illegal. Just because you don't like something doesn't automatically make it illegal. 

A lot of effort goes into making the shows as legal as possible within the directive of the law as we understand it and it isn't always easy to work out where the line of illegality begins.

A large number of people are giving large amounts of time towards getting this Judicial Review right, so that it gives clarification of the law so that the shows can be totally legal. 
Once we have that bit sorted, we can start looking at peoples individual concerns but you also have to remember that the shows aren't just run to your personal requirements, they have to cater to everyone that attends in a legal manner.

How about you give it a rest for a while and save it all up for after the JR when we will all hopefully know what we are supposed to be doing to be legal.

Gordon


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

sharpstrain said:


> The problem is, it is impossible to defend something that is deceptive and dishonest. I for one perosnally know several commercial breeders who attend and have stalls at shows. I also knwo people who go to Hamm and houten to buy animals to sell at UK "shows". Pretending it doesn't happen and getting angry at people that point it out, simply adds fuel and power to the antis. Truth is truth, some people don't like it and it is convenient to ignore it, but truth is still truth


its funny how this fact is overlooked so frequently

no one is doing the hobby any favours by doing so


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

Natrix said:


> Before you start attacking the FBH......
> 
> How about you give it a rest for a while and save it all up for after the JR when we will all hopefully know what we are supposed to be doing to be legal.
> 
> Gordon



I havent attacked the FBH indeed I have donated - however I have asked for clarification, but it isn't forthcoming.

So when you don't like what you hear you tell people to shut up - what a crap strategy - I hope you aren't appearing at the review


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

sharpstrain said:


> I have asked for clarification, but it isn't forthcoming.


What information is it that you feel hasn't been given?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Well as Colin explained in his original piece, he wanted people to donate or not as simple as that.

From what I can see the detractors either havent been to a show for numerous years, are willing to come on here with Chinese whispers but not willing to tell the authorities at the time or are Royal Python breeders who are jealous of others success. 

It would be easy enough for like minded hobbyists to set up their own federation or cooperative and run their own clubs, societies and shows. There is plenty of money in the hobby for the purchase of animals. Then again its easier to snipe from the wings at those who give their free time to the hobby and endeavour to make it better for all involved.

Einstein has been mentioned earlier, well it doesnt take Einstein to work out why the FBH need the money, does it? Without putting it in black and white.

People wonder why most of the FBH committtee dont bother with the forums any more. Its plainly obvious to me , what is the point? A vocal minority hide behind usernames to have a pop at any opportunity. This is to the detriment of the other forum users who are interested in the hobby issues.


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## Nelly Hog (Apr 28, 2014)

Donated. Come on guys lets nail their coffins tight. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## SueBoyle (Aug 29, 2013)

sharpstrain said:


> I would like to see a detailed break down of the costs involved and defecit requiring funding. At the moment it feels like a vague request for money with no real detail, deadlines or other information. I am not a fan of generic funding requests, however if this is a request for a specific course of action then that is different - I am one for detail however


Isn't this the case with so many requests for donations? When one new organisation started out and I asked where the money was going to go, I was more or less told to mind my own business!


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

colinm said:


> Well as Colin explained in his original piece, he wanted people to donate or not as simple as that.
> 
> From what I can see the detractors either havent been to a show for numerous years, are willing to come on here with Chinese whispers but not willing to tell the authorities at the time or are Royal Python breeders who are jealous of others success.
> 
> ...


 I did indeed visit Kempton last year and certainly witnessed several traders with stalls selling a variety of goods and also animals. I have no idea what your comment about Royal Python Breeders has to do with the discussion - I assume that it just an attempt to confuse the argument by adding something which is irrelevant and misleading. There is a fantastic book called Straight and Crooked Thinking., which highlights the dishonest methods that politically minded people use to win arguments - The technique that you are using is number 3 I believe.

As for Einstein - well I think the even he would agree, that when an organisation requests money, it would make sense for them to be clear about what it is for and also perfectly reasonable for people to ask. Especially when those people have made donations in the past and have received no information about how it was used or what the costs and budgetary defecit currently is for the specific project. 

It is a shame that instead of being straightforward and open, the response has been evasive and aggressive - makes people feel suspicious rather than generous - if the answers are so simple then why don't the FBH answer them.

I am not a detractor (well I wasnt ) I just wanted an appropriate answer to a reasonable question.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Thanks for the bumps guys, this thread was dying.


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

Natrix said:


> It's a reasonable question but there is a limit on how much can be said regarding the Judicial Review at this point in time. After the hearing we will be saying lots but for now the best I can do is say this;
> 
> A third party put pressure on Arun District Council to get the Portsmouth show stopped. This was done using information that appears to be lacking in accuracy, claiming that it would be illegal under the 1983 amendment of the 1951 pet animals act if hobbyists sold their excess stock at the show.
> 
> ...



I'm a bit puzzled to be honest by the reiteration that no answers have been given regarding what the money is needed for, or how much is needed. This seems to me to explain in reasonable detail - plus the fact that you really can't say a lot of things on a public forum while in the middle of legal action.

You don't know how much you need till afterwards, as you don't know what the other side will throw at you, or how long the lawyers need to work to sort it out. 

How is this reply evasive or aggressive?


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