# bearded dragon twitching



## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Hi, 

Hoping someone can help me. 

Husband and I bought 2 bearded dragons about 2 weeks ago now - we're still very new owners, as this is our first real reptile pets (husband kept an iguana years ago...) They are around 12 weeks old now, the bigger one measures at 9 inches and the smaller one at only 7 inches. 

My problem is the smaller of our 2 dragons is now twitching a lot, all of his/her legs are twitching, and at the moment he's showing no interest in food. 

We have them in a good sized Viv, with a UVB floresent tube - the warm side of the viv is around 105degrees farenheight, although I'm not sure what the cooler side is. 

The pet shop where we bought them suggested that large crix were the right size, but I suspect they are too big, from everything I've read since, and we've been dusting them twice a week as per the pet shops suggestions - they each normally eat about 5 crix a day and I've been giving them parsley, cabbage and romaine lettuce and kale as a vegatable fresh each day. 

We've had a few regurgitation issues when we've dusted the crix - and now I'm really worried that I've been doing a terrible job looking after my new pets. (Hubby has been following the advice of the pet shop, but I suspect he's been putting on too much calcium powder and thats caused the regurgitation) 

Can anyone suggest what the twitching might be, and where I can get calcium liquid from, if it is a calcium problem - and how much do I give? 

I don't want to loose one only 2 weeks after getting them.


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Just to add I've phoned my vets, but their reptile vet isn't in until Monday, and so they seemed reluctant to be able to help.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Classic onset signs of MBD (Metabolic Bone Diseases) if it's been described correctly. (uncontrollable muscle spasms, starting in the extremities when the animal is sat at rest)

What % UV do you have? 
How close can they get to it in inches? (i.e: sat on a log under it or just on the floor?)
How long is it on for each day?
What brand is it? Reptisun? Reptiglo?
What actual suppliments do you have?

You've only had these chaps for 2 weeks so it's more than likely they were on this track when you got them and the way the shop have kept them and advised you to keep them is causing it. 

Keep us updated, 
Lotte***

Lets get all the facts together and work from there, recovery should be possible at this point if there are no other symptoms involved


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## weaver (Oct 15, 2008)

twitching can be because of lack of calcium but i wouldnt give them any more in case thats not actually the problem
you definatly need to go and see a vet as soon as possible because it could be something to do with the nervous system or because of some kind of disease
definatly book an apointment for as soon as you can or try to find another rep vet near you


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Hi, thanks for the response. 

We have a repti glo 8 floresent tube tube (3') (we've chucked the box, but I've searched online and it appears to be 33% uva and 8% uvb) 

they can get within about 6/7" to it, from their highest pints (rock and log) and it's about 12" to floor. It's on from 8am-8pm (on timer)

We've been using nutrobal to dust the crickets. Advised by pet shop to dust 2 times a week, but when we suffered regurgitation in the first week, they suggested giving it a week, and then trying again.


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## bony (Jul 19, 2008)

Are they possably two male getting aggressive with each other? Leg waving and head rocking are typical displays for beardys. It may not be as bad as you think. Some lizards may stop feeding if they are in with another aggressive lizzard. Sadly you may have to seperate these guys.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

laiq said:


> Hi, thanks for the response.
> 
> We have a repti glo 8 floresent tube tube (3') (we've chucked the box, but I've searched online and it appears to be 33% uva and 8% uvb)
> 
> ...


 

HI there

OK theres a a few things that arent so good here however I know youre trying your best to rectify so if you take this advice and make some changes these little guys have a good chance of not getting worse.



It DOES sound liek the onset of mbd, the twithcing is something I have regularly seen in some of the beardies and water dragons I have rescued over the last few years. but with a few changes any further damage can be halted. However you MUST get them booked in for a reptile vet check. Do not use a normal vet make sure its a specialist. It may or m,ay not be MBD but with the lack of real calcium I think there probably wil be SOME damage.

Until then please do the following.

DO NOT feed cabbage.. ever.. it causes really bad wind and gas.. and also hampers the absorption of calcium.

NUTROBAL is indeed meant for dusting twice a week but thats not proper calcium. Nutrobal is often mistaken as caclium but it simply isnt. It is a mixture of small amounts of calcium and lots of vitamins. you MUST get a proper calcium PURE dust like CALYPSO.. and dust FIVE times a week when not dusting with Nutrobal. I always use calypso I fele it is the best and it last a good long while. Dusy lightly on each insect feed per day. You can buy calypso from ebay or other places like livefoods direct etc... online stores.

They sound like they are not eating well at all.. but that may be to do with size of insects rather than anyhting else.

5 crickets at a time is a small amount but also you can cause real harm by feeding prey items too large . SO this also may be something to do with their issues. They could be not digesting properly the food given.

Small insects and small meals are best and there is the belief that large meals and feeding insects that are too large for the dragon can cause leg paralysis, choking, and even death.


A dragon this age would be best fed two to 3 times a day small meals.


Please DO NOT try to self medicate here as over administering calcium can cause very serious problems too. Treating any type of mbd should always be done under vet supervision and advice that way further checks can be made later down the line.

Since they are showing signs of classic MBD to be honest an x-ray each is very important to judge the damage to their bone density. Can i ask if the head twitching seems liek a head wobble. or are they actually bobbing at one another showing aggression>>?

Do not blame yourself either you were going on what you thought was correct advice. This happened to my BF too and he was devestated. 

His first Bearded Dragon had no Uv or calcium for a year. I managed after 5 months and lots of treatment to help him care for the beardie who now has a good quality of life. he wil never fully recover and cant walk and run liek other beardies but he manages to get around the floor and eat well. he has a jutting jaw and head wobble and we need to massage him and help him poo as his digestive system isnt great . I appreciate peopel feel bad when they find out something like this.. but the fact you care enough to do what needs to be done to fix it now means you are a caring and sensible owner. 

If you make the changes suggested and definately get a reptile vet to take some time to x-ray and get a fecal smaple done from both I think you would be well on your way to helping them.

If MBD is caught early enough although it wil leave permanent damage it can often be hardly noticeable and the dragon will have a good happy long life.

Good luck
and any more questions just ask

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

bony said:


> Are they possably two male getting aggressive with each other? Leg waving and head rocking are typical displays for beardys. It may not be as bad as you think. Some lizards may stop feeding if they are in with another aggressive lizzard. Sadly you may have to seperate these guys.



Nope, it's definitely not that - we were very aware that when they got older we may have to separate them, and were more than willing to get new viv and extras to do so. So far they have shown no signs of agression towards each other, at all. 

Little one (Spike) isn't moving very much at all atm, he's laying on his belly, legs and tail shuddering and twitching, his front claws all bent over, and when he does move, he's doing so on his wrists...


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

the regurgitation is most likely caused by them not being able to digest the crickets, either they're too big (should be no bigger than the space between their eyes) or they aren't basking for long enough and digesting them properly.

I'm not sure how long they actually need to digest, but I make sure mine have atleast 2 hours after feeding before the heat lamp goes off



isn't nutrobol a vitamin powder? 
you need a calcium powder, dust 5 days a week with calcium powder, and 2 days with vitamin powder. vitamin powder doesn't contain enough calcium for them on it's own, this could cause MBD easily.

I'm also pretty definate you need to use a 10% UVB bulb for beardies


You cannot give them too much calcium on it's own, but you can OD them on vitamins.


Do not blame yourself, it's bad advice from the pet shop, and if they only advised vitamin powder, it's very likely that's all they're using and it's very likely MBD


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

moonstruck said:


> the regurgitation is most likely caused by them not being able to digest the crickets, either they're too big (should be no bigger than the space between their eyes) or they aren't basking for long enough and digesting them properly.
> 
> I'm not sure how long they actually need to digest, but I make sure mine have atleast 2 hours after feeding before the heat lamp goes off
> 
> ...


hi moonstruck you CAN overdose on calcium sweetheart and with really bad effects actually..


it can cause severe and serious hypoglycemia ( sp), and worse stil blindness and severe neuro problems...

oh edited to add.. can cause kidney and renal issues too (Scott reminded me...)


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the wonderful advice. 

I only bought the cabbage yesterday, and fed them a small bit - so wont be giving them any more of that!! We're off into town shortly, and I intend to buy much smaller crickets, as I am positive the ones we were told to give them were much, much too large. (They are not given any crickets within 2 hours of the basking lamp going off - we had heard they need at least 2 hours to digest). 

I need to work out where to get some pure calcium dust from, as it sounds like thats our problem. (can it be bought in reptile pet shops? or is it only available online?) I'll make an appointment for the reptile vet at the beginning of next week. 

Spike appears to be shaking a lot little less know he's just managed to go to the toilet... and his claws are flipped the right way again.. He's standing up, and moving around!!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

laiq said:


> Thanks for the wonderful advice.
> 
> I only bought the cabbage yesterday, and fed them a small bit - so wont be giving them any more of that!! We're off into town shortly, and I intend to buy much smaller crickets, as I am positive the ones we were told to give them were much, much too large. (They are not given any crickets within 2 hours of the basking lamp going off - we had heard they need at least 2 hours to digest).
> 
> ...


youre going to do fine.. youre rectifying the issues now as you go along and youre totally willing to do whats required.. some owners dont listen.. but you are so dont be hard on yourself ok ? 

if u cant find any calypso let me know i will send u some.. free of charge to be going on with until u get what u need 

try ebay though.. thats where i get mine

ive sent you my email address in PM so you can contact me if you need to.

xxxxxx


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

sparkle said:


> hypoglycemia ( sp),quote]
> 
> Hypercalcaemia :2thumb:
> 
> ...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Saedcantas said:


> sparkle said:
> 
> 
> > hypoglycemia ( sp),quote]
> ...


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

sparkle said:


> Saedcantas said:
> 
> 
> > oops thanks for that... I used the wrong term mine refers to blood sugars.. whereas yours is the proper definition of over calcification.. oops
> ...


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks again for the advice. I've got the much smaller crickets now. 

Spike did seem much recovered after his toilet trip, but sadly the tremors have started again this afternoon. Hopefully he'll hold out until Monday - until then I cannot get him to a vet, or get the alternate light you guys suggest. 

I'll be on ebay later getting the calcium dust too. 

Thanks again.


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

calcium dust has been orderedvia ebay, so hopefully will be hear near the beginning of next week . 

Slightly dumb question - but how essential is the light change? Hubby already getting narky with the line "people on the internet don't know everything dear" and as the light is only 2 weeks old, I'm slightly nervous to broach the subject right now - tempted to see how easy it would be to change without him knowing... 

I must admit it can be very confusing as a new pet owner with some places saying "this is the best light" and others disagreeing - no wonder we get it wrong on occasions!! (I've read on various sites that the repitglo 8 was the best for beardies... and obviously you guys feel the reptisun 10% is better!!)


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## NXSmiggy (Oct 29, 2008)

laiq said:


> calcium dust has been orderedvia ebay, so hopefully will be hear near the beginning of next week .
> 
> Slightly dumb question - but how essential is the light change? Hubby already getting narky with the line "people on the internet don't know everything dear" and as the light is only 2 weeks old, I'm slightly nervous to broach the subject right now - tempted to see how easy it would be to change without him knowing...
> 
> I must admit it can be very confusing as a new pet owner with some places saying "this is the best light" and others disagreeing - no wonder we get it wrong on occasions!! (I've read on various sites that the repitglo 8 was the best for beardies... and obviously you guys feel the reptisun 10% is better!!)


hey there , sorry to add my 2 cencts worth but my OH says the same all the time. then i politely remind her its about a 150:2 ratio on here vs the shop lol.

also i must admit ive been told the reptisun 10 is the best by alot of people , and am looking to purchase one myself

happy hunting


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

NXSmiggy said:


> hey there , sorry to add my 2 cencts worth but my OH says the same all the time. then i politely remind her its about a 150:2 ratio on here vs the shop lol.
> 
> also i must admit ive been told the reptisun 10 is the best by alot of people , and am looking to purchase one myself
> 
> happy hunting


Lol!! Glad I'm not the only one struggling - have just told hubby I think we have the wrong light his response? _

"Well we were sold the one, in the shop, recommended for bearded dragons..." *sarcastic look*_ 

Yeah, I want to throttle him, he seems to think everything recommended by a shop for a beardie must automatically be the right thing... :roll:


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

laiq said:


> tempted to see how easy it would be to change without him knowing...


very easy - they all look the same other than tiny little printing on one end to tell you what it is so he'd never know the difference!!! You can get reptisuns off ebay too for a good price sometimes or I use the arcadia D3+which is 12% and can be bought here:
Livefood UK Crickets Locusts Mealworms Reptile supplies mail order

they are very good on delivery - the rep shops around by me only sell the reptiglo's too so I always have to order mine on line - its a bit of a pain that the shops dont stock enough of a wide variety - probably down to pricings.

Does sound if your little ones tremors are down to lack of calcium/lack of UVB - my friends baby beardie had this too but the prognosis is good if caught quickly enough - she took hers to the vet and he said to load him with calcium for a few days - up her UVB light and take him into the sun for a few mins if she could (although thats impossible at this time of year lol!!) and he doesnt suffer any ill effects now and is abou a year old now - good luck and hope he will be ok for you!!


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

arcadia d3 12% is a great one


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## debcot1 (May 13, 2008)

sparkle said:


> arcadia d3 12% is a great one


 i'll second that, i have them in all of my vivs : victory:


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

laiq said:


> Slightly dumb question - but how essential is the light change? Hubby already getting narky with the line "people on the internet don't know everything dear" and as the light is only 2 weeks old, I'm slightly nervous to broach the subject right now - tempted to see how easy it would be to change without him knowing...
> 
> I must admit it can be very confusing as a new pet owner with some places saying "this is the best light" and others disagreeing - no wonder we get it wrong on occasions!! (I've read on various sites that the repitglo 8 was the best for beardies... and obviously you guys feel the reptisun 10% is better!!)


The speed at which your little guys recover will be significantly increased by changing to a more powerful, better suited tube, reducing the risk of further damage to your chaps bodies.

I absolutely understand his woe! But it's so important that he realises the advice and previous husbandry given by the shop caused this to happen. Nothing else. 
Therefore, as much of a hassle as it is you want these animals to get better and avoid as much lasting damage as possible, this light can help you achieve that 

I use Reptisun tubes myself at home, I only used Reptisun tubes when I worked in the trade for 8 years and as a professional herpetologist, at work now the only fluorescent tubes we ever use are Reptisuns.:2thumb:

This page documents all kinds of UVB information and facts (current and continuing research), it's probably a bit heavy, but if you find yourself at a loose end a look through it might clarify a lot of things on this topic 
UV Lighting for Reptiles: UVB Fluorescent Tubes Test Results

Best wishes
Lotte***


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## moonstruck (Aug 10, 2008)

sparkle said:


> hi moonstruck you CAN overdose on calcium sweetheart and with really bad effects actually..
> 
> 
> it can cause severe and serious hypoglycemia ( sp), and worse stil blindness and severe neuro problems...
> ...


oh s**t,

i'd been genuinly led to believe you couldn't, by A LOT of people


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

I go to the international zoo vet in Bradford. Johanna has a very good reputation and is probably the best vet near you.

Johanna recently treated my baby for mbd. He had had it from birth (the breeder said he was born like it although Johanna was sceptical).

I had very good advice here and by the time he actually saw Johanna he was well on the way to recovery although he never got as bad as yours because the breeder's general care was good and he was being properly supplemented and had the right uvb from birth - it's just that he needed a bit more than normal and it took a lot of learning here to get it right for him.

Because he has the right set up and was already improving Johanna didn't give him any liquid calcium or injections (she originally planned to but changed her mind based on the way I had been caring for him and how far he had come since he came to me - I took her a photo). Yours will probably need them though.

she then gave me some special cricket paste for feeding to the livefood. It is high in calcium and is mixed with water so it they want to drink they have to take calcium. The livefood has to be fed on it for 3 days before I can feed them to Trevor to make sure he gets the benefit of the extra calcium

and a calcium supplement designed for carnivorous reptiles instead of both nutrobal and calypso

She also gave me a very short list of vegetables with high calcium but low phosphorus levels so they allow better absorption of the calcium (which don't include his favourite butternut squash, although I do use it as a garnish sometimes):

Pak/bak choi
turnip greens
beet greens
mustard greens
brocolli leaf

I have to feed both the live food and Trevor the same veg

fortunately he really likes pak choi and it's really easy to get in the chinese supermarket in town (morrisons do it too but not quite as cheaply)

Trevor walked on his wrists when he came to me but he is much much stronger now and improving all the time - he doesn't use his left wrist at all now.

it's really a shame the winter is setting in now - if it was warmer you could take them out in the sun for a bit each day - that is the very best treatment for mbd alongside the calcium as they get much more uvb from real daylight, even if it is overcast. The reason the uvb is so important is that it is no good supplementing with calcium if they can't absorb it and they need the light to do that


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

hi zemanski thanks for that post.. i didnt know brocoli leaves were good.. i wil be trying them soon

mine loves pak choi though and blueberries as a treat


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

broccoli leaves are a pain to get unless you grow them yourself though!

all these are way higher than dandelions in calcium - 1 cup of dandelion leaves has 168mg calcium compared to 262mg for broccoli leaf (the lowest of the ones Johanna recommended) and 400mg for pak choi (the highest)


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Pak Choi is high in Oxalic acid and Goitrogens, which prettymuch negates it's fabulous Ca ratio. It should be used pretty sparingly.


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## Trilby (Oct 25, 2008)

Cheese!


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

not according to this:

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Cabbage, chinese (pak-choi), raw

here it specifically says they don't contain high levels of oxalic acid:



> nutritional value
> Asian greens are highly nutritious. Most Asian greens are an excellent source of vitamin C and most are good sources of vitamin A and many antioxidants. The darker the colour, the higher the antioxidant levels. With the exception of Chinese cabbage, Asian greens are a good source of available iron. Unlike spinach Asian greens do not contain oxalic acid which binds the iron to the spinach so that it is not available to the body. Chrysanthemum leaves, mustard cabbage, tat soi and Chinese broccoli also provide calcium. All Asian greens supply folate and are a good fibre source.


(from this site:

nz vegetables all you need to know
)


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Much to OH annoyance I have ordered the D3+ (12%) light from livefoods.co.uk so hopefully that'll help the little fellas too. 

I know OH is now getting annoyed as he doesn't think we've actually done anything wrong, and because Spike's twitching has calmed down a lot, and he wasn't twitching this evening he thinks it's all ok now. I'll hopefully sleep a bit better knowing that I'm trying to find the best way to look after these guys.


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

I tried to get an arcadia tube but petzoo sent the wrong one twice:bash:
it's supposed to be the best next to the mercury vapour bulbs but they are not good in smaller vivs (believe it or not a 4x2x2 viv counts as small here!!!) and can't be dimmed so you need a different temperature regulation system

my OH has been a bit pissed off with how much Trevor has cost (I had to change the set up too after getting the wrong advice :blush but once you get them sorted out and settled in it will settle down.

unless you get your animal from a proper reptile shop *with a good reputation *(there really don't seem to be many of these) it is unlikely the shop will know how to keep a beardie properly - reptiles are a specialist area and each one requires something quite different

good luck with them


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## Sambee (Jul 4, 2008)

laiq said:


> Much to OH annoyance I have ordered the D3+ (12%) light from livefoods.co.uk so hopefully that'll help the little fellas too.
> 
> I know OH is now getting annoyed as he doesn't think we've actually done anything wrong, and because Spike's twitching has calmed down a lot, and he wasn't twitching this evening he thinks it's all ok now. I'll hopefully sleep a bit better knowing that I'm trying to find the best way to look after these guys.


Tell your OH to what and see what an improvement the light will make 

Have you ordered some Calypso calcium powder too?


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

yes she has bought some calypso - shes posted that shes ordered some fomr ebay a bit further back


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Beardies can get twitches and muscle tremors when they are constipated, if they have eaten too many hard to digest items like mealworms or a small beardie has managed to eat a very large cricket it can even sometimes cause temporary paralysis in the back legs, its usually fixed by putting them on a hot water bottle that is covered by a towel so the extra belly heat can help pass the blockage through. I say use a hot water bottle and not a heatmat because the beardie will not be able to move very well and will most likely cook on a heat mat. once the blockage has passed through the muscle tremors will dissapear.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

pink said:


> Beardies can get twitches and muscle tremors when they are constipated, if they have eaten too many hard to digest items like mealworms or a small beardie has managed to eat a very large cricket it can even sometimes cause temporary paralysis in the back legs, its usually fixed by putting them on a hot water bottle that is covered by a towel so the extra belly heat can help pass the blockage through. I say use a hot water bottle and not a heatmat because the beardie will not be able to move very well and will most likely cook on a heat mat. once the blockage has passed through the muscle tremors will dissapear.


 
the muslce tremors would only dissapear if it was a blockage though.. if its MBD they wont.. so its stil best to get it al checked out as others have advised 

but yes leg paralysis can happen .. and also chocking etc..


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for that Pink. I'm beginning to wonder if that might be the cause of the problem - because Spike has been fine today, no tremors or muscle twitches. 

Obviously better lighting and Calcium wont hurt them... and they dont seem keen on the smaller crickets - they are a bit too quick, and they just don't seem to notice them at all. (but I haven't been able to get them eating at all today)


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## Sambee (Jul 4, 2008)

laiq said:


> Thanks for that Pink. I'm beginning to wonder if that might be the cause of the problem - because Spike has been fine today, no tremors or muscle twitches.
> 
> Obviously better lighting and Calcium wont hurt them... and they dont seem keen on the smaller crickets - they are a bit too quick, and they just don't seem to notice them at all. (but I haven't been able to get them eating at all today)


Have you tried locusts? They don't run like crickets, they just jump but that seems to attract my beardie to them rather than not notice them. You can get small locusts from www.livefoods.co.uk you also might like to try some butterworms. They should only be given 1 or 2 a week because they are quite fatty but they also contain a good amount of calcium.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

the thing is MBD can be sporadic when they are young liek that..

some days nothing at al other days bad..

to be 100% sure id have them both vet checked anyway and while youre at it id have fecal samples done..


that way youve covered all your bases..

with reptiles its very important to remember ilness signs RARELY show.. they suffer a long time with no external symtoms usually.. its just they way of their physiological make up

when you do see signs even if they do go away i would always err on side of caution and have them checked over.. especially since they have bene lakcing in calcium and proper UV

it sounds more like the onset of MBD but may have also been futher agitated by larger prey items.

remember also that MBD can cause a sluggish digestive system.

Im one of those keepers who would prefer to take my animal to the vet and have tests done so i KNOW for sure i am treating correctly than hope its all ok.

There are amny though that once symtomos go wil be happy .. personally with rescue lizards ive dealt with its been so obvious thast SO SO many of the problems were not visual.. yet with x-rays and fecals and ultra sounds a LOT of problems showed up.

Im probably one of the keepers on here that wil always advise vets because of what I have seen and dealt with especially with MBD and rewscue water dragons and beardies... whilst others wil say .. oh the symtoms have gone its fine now..


id still advise vet checks. im sure youd feel rotten if you thought it was al lok only to turn out to be something none of us on here had even thought of... for now though youre doing all you can to rectify what you can..

so for that well done

:notworthy::2thumb:


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## Sambee (Jul 4, 2008)

sparkle said:


> the thing is MBD can be sporadic when they are young liek that..
> 
> some days nothing at al other days bad..
> 
> ...


I agree. If in doubt...go to the vet! :2thumb:


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

I haven't tried locusts yet - have to be honest I'm still getting used to the whole bug thing, and locusts looked a bit too creepy to me!! lol!!


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## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

If it is calcium defficiency onset of MBD then changing your light and upping the supplementation wouldnt fix it in time, you would need to use an oral calcium/ d3 supplement in liquid form such as vetarks "Zolcal D" but a good vet would advise this. 

Better lighting and increased supplementation is a prevention of MBD not the cure. 

I strongly suspect its constipation, if the tremors go then it was, if they dont its possible onset of MBD. 

You can always slow the smaller crickets down by popping them in the fridge for 5 minutes so they are easier to catch, its always a good idea to use brown crickets rather than blacks for young beardies as they are easier to digest, and i never feed my young beardies mealworms because of this very problem.


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

sparkle said:


> the thing is MBD can be sporadic when they are young liek that..
> 
> some days nothing at al other days bad..
> 
> ...




Oh, I will still definantly take them to the vet... I'm just aware that the termors stopped after he went to the toilet, and only started again after he'd had the last 2 larger crickets (and a morio worm that hubby had been told was a good treat for him...)


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## Sambee (Jul 4, 2008)

laiq said:


> I haven't tried locusts yet - have to be honest I'm still getting used to the whole bug thing, and locusts looked a bit too creepy to me!! lol!!


Locusts are pretty compared to crickets I think! If you're squeemish about locusts, I won't bother suggesting dubia cockroaches :lol2:

Only kidding, roaches are great, I've gota breeding colony on the go, my beardie loves them, he always eats about double the amount of roaches compared to crickets or locusts!


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

pink said:


> If it is calcium defficiency onset of MBD then changing your light and upping the supplementation wouldnt fix it in time, you would need to use an oral calcium/ d3 supplement in liquid form such as vetarks "Zolcal D" but a good vet would advise this.
> 
> Better lighting and increased supplementation is a prevention of MBD not the cure.
> 
> ...



We are using brown crickets - and thanks for the fridge idea - the bigger ones seemed much slower / easier to catch!!


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## Sambee (Jul 4, 2008)

pink said:


> If it is calcium defficiency onset of MBD then changing your light and upping the supplementation wouldnt fix it in time, you would need to use an oral calcium/ d3 supplement in liquid form such as vetarks "Zolcal D" but a good vet would advise this.
> 
> Better lighting and increased supplementation is a prevention of MBD not the cure.
> 
> ...


You could also put them outside for 5 mins if it isn't raining. Works for me:2thumb:


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## zemanski (Jun 15, 2008)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can cure mbd with the measures suggested but you can stop it getting worse and doing more damage and that should be done ASAP.

a vet visit is definitely the way to go if mbd is suspected

Even if it isn't mbd though the measures are good for a beardie and won't harm it

if it is 'constipation' stop with the meal worms, morios and large prey - before it turns into impaction and does serious damage


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

zemanski said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can cure mbd with the measures suggested but you can stop it getting worse and doing more damage and that should be done ASAP.
> 
> a vet visit is definitely the way to go if mbd is suspected
> 
> ...


melaworms i agree is a definate nono for beardies expeically under 6 months but frankly mine doesnt get them full stop..

their exo skeletons have too much chitin and beardies tummies dont digest that well at all..

the only worms mine gets is a waxie once in a while for a treat al mine are fed on locusts as i also hate crix


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone that gave me advice over the weekend... 

The boys are looking much more alert and happy today, they've got used to the smaller crickets, and between them today they've probably had about 25. (which I'm guessing is a much more sensible number compared to the 5 too big ones they were eating) 

They seem to have gotten used to the speed of the crix, and are much more interested now. (Funniest thing is watching my cat watching them hunt, she seems desperate to get involved, and pounces everytime they pounce - obviously she cannot get anywhere near them, but my leg may have a few extra scratch marks in it, thanks to her excitement!!) 

looking forward to the new light coming, and the calypso - hoping I'll see even more improvements then. 

Spike's twitching has stopped completely, have seen no sign of it since Saturday afternoon when Hubby gave him the morio worms (Which he bought back up fairly soon afterwards)... :2thumb:


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## laiq (Nov 8, 2008)

And my daughter was over the moon this evening at feed time, as she was on the receiving end of a great waving session - which we've never seen them do before... I'm guessing this means the smaller crickets are a huge hit - as they are so much more alert!


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