# No Giant African Bullfrogs? Read on...



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

It's been noticeable of late that there certainly seems to have been a rise in demand of P.adspersus in Europe and a distinct lack of availability of this species, a species that up until 18 months ago or so was readily available and usually retailed for around the £25 mark, but is now going for in excess of £60 when available. But why is this I hear you ask? I'm sure some of you are maybe wondering as to why P.adspersus, once a mainstay of the industry has almost disappeared overnight from UK (and European) exotic petshops and suppliers. Well, the answer to this was explained to me by Kim Thomas who runs the biggest amphibian captive breeding facility in the world. If you own a Horned frog, Budgett's frog or African species of Bullfrog (amongst others) then it is very likely that it was bred by Kim at his facility in California. So, what is the reason for the lack of P.adspersus? The answer comes down to two main factors. The first being that in recent times the demand for true Giant African bullfrogs in Taiwan has become meteoric, and importers there have been buying everything Kim has produced often long before it's gone on sale, or in most cases long before they've even left the water, consequently leaving little room for the European market. The second reason is that Kim no longer breeds adspersus in the numbers he used to, as some people will know it is no easy feat, and there are many preconditions required for successful breeding and these preconditions take up an extensive amount of time - Like most amphibians there is no cutting corners if you want to do it successfully, and this is certainly very much the case with P.adspersus. Kim, however, is currently trying to catch up with demand and is producing numbers of metamorphs every 2 months or so, but is still a long way behind the numbers being demanded. But I think it's fair to say that you can be rest assured that they will be back soon, and aren't the dying breed in captivity that people think they are. 

Hope this information helps folks.
Cheers
Al


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

Alex M said:


> It's been noticeable of late that there certainly seems to have been a rise in demand of P.adspersus in Europe and a distinct lack of availability of this species, a species that up until 18 months ago or so was readily available and usually retailed for around the £25 mark, but is now going for in excess of £60 when available. But why is this I hear you ask? I'm sure some of you are maybe wondering as to why P.adspersus, once a mainstay of the industry has almost disappeared overnight from UK (and European) exotic petshops and suppliers. Well, the answer to this was explained to me by Kim Thomas who runs the biggest amphibian captive breeding facility in the world. If you own a Horned frog, Budgett's frog or African species of Bullfrog (amongst others) then it is very likely that it was bred by Kim at his facility in California. So, what is the reason for the lack of P.adspersus? The answer comes down to two main factors. The first being that in recent times the demand for true Giant African bullfrogs in Taiwan has become meteoric, and importers there have been buying everything Kim has produced often long before it's gone on sale, or in most cases long before they've even left the water, consequently leaving little room for the European market. The second reason is that Kim no longer breeds adspersus in the numbers he used to, as some people will know it is no easy feat, and there are many preconditions required for successful breeding and these preconditions take up an extensive amount of time - Like most amphibians there is no cutting corners if you want to do it successfully, and this is certainly very much the case with P.adspersus. Kim, however, is currently trying to catch up with demand and is producing numbers of metamorphs every 2 months or so, but is still a long way behind the numbers being demanded. But I think it's fair to say that you can be rest assured that they will be back soon, and aren't the dying breed in captivity that people think they are.
> 
> Hope this information helps folks.
> Cheers
> Al


there was talk of this on another american site i go on, aparently his bullfrogs were on a sabatical, also his head honcho has left the frog ranch dont no who the head honcho is there words not mine, why are they being exported to taiwan <food possibly?> in the states every body is trying to get the wild caught lines back be it ltc wc or just wc i dont no why this is possibly as so many captive bread frogs are being produced and they all come from the frog ranch from the sounds of things on the forums over there, but the adspersus over the pond is like a cult they have gone crazy for them and there are still people over there finding it hard no were as bad as here though! and there is another breeder out there who has just fiiled the gap in the market and bred stacks of the things, 
interesting info alex keep us updated if you here anything else,: victory:

cheers spencer................


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Not my field mate ,ha as you know, but still hellish interesting,thanks for the info mate...cool post
Stu


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

spencerburgo said:


> there was talk of this on another american site i go on, aparently his bullfrogs were on a sabatical, also his head honcho has left the frog ranch dont no who the head honcho is there words not mine, why are they being exported to taiwan <food possibly?> in the states every body is trying to get the wild caught lines back be it ltc wc or just wc i dont no why this is possibly as so many captive bread frogs are being produced and they all come from the frog ranch from the sounds of things on the forums over there, but the adspersus over the pond is like a cult they have gone crazy for them and there are still people over there finding it hard no were as bad as here though! and there is another breeder out there who has just fiiled the gap in the market and bred stacks of the things,
> interesting info alex keep us updated if you here anything else,: victory:
> cheers spencer................


Hi Spencer,

One thing I do know is that the Taiwanese adspersus market is certainly not for the food market, if anyone suggested that on a US forum they must seriously be going out of their mind! - They have plenty of farms out in the Far East that produce unbelievable numbers of R.catesbiana for eating. The adspersus are not exactly expensive at trade, but are certainly not cheap enough to be viable buys for eating - Not to mention the FR would have to produce millions of them to keep up with demand, they breed alot but not that many!. For whatever reason, like here and in several other countries, their popularity has increased and you get peaks and troughs with lots of species really, the adspersus situation is nothing new. Whites tree frogs are a brilliant example of that - Believe it or not there's not enough currently being CB in England to supply demand so most shops are having to rely on WC Indonesian imports or CB from other areas - People stopped CB'ing them here because they got fed up with being offered £1 a metamorph and now the shops are suffering to an extent. Interestingly, in America there is a good supply of the Australian line caerulea, yet in England they're incredibly hard to acquire with certainty - any Whites bought here are likely of Indonesion origin and are nowhere near as hardy as those caerulea originating from Australia. As for The Frog Ranch, they'll get by just fine, family run business of around 20 odd years and I think it's fair to say that Kim overseas everything anyway - I'm sure the lack of adspersus is not down to 1 staff member leaving but rather the honest and totally credible reasons he's given me. Internet gossip eh?

Cheers
Al


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Not my field mate ,ha as you know, but still hellish interesting,thanks for the info mate...cool post
> Stu


I'm pleased you've found it interesting mate, the amphibian world in general IS interesting!

Hope you well pal,
Cheers
Al


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

Alex M said:


> Hi Spencer,
> 
> One thing I do know is that the Taiwanese adspersus market is certainly not for the food market, if anyone suggested that on a US forum they must seriously be going out of their mind! - They have plenty of farms out in the Far East that produce unbelievable numbers of R.catesbiana for eating. The adspersus are not exactly expensive at trade, but are certainly not cheap enough to be viable buys for eating - Not to mention the FR would have to produce millions of them to keep up with demand, they breed alot but not that many!. For whatever reason, like here and in several other countries, their popularity has increased and you get peaks and troughs with lots of species really, the adspersus situation is nothing new. Whites tree frogs are a brilliant example of that - Believe it or not there's not enough currently being CB in England to supply demand so most shops are having to rely on WC Indonesian imports or CB from other areas - People stopped CB'ing them here because they got fed up with being offered £1 a metamorph and now the shops are suffering to an extent. Interestingly, in America there is a good supply of the Australian line caerulea, yet in England they're incredibly hard to acquire with certainty - any Whites bought here are likely of Indonesion origin and are nowhere near as hardy as those caerulea originating from Australia. As for The Frog Ranch, they'll get by just fine, family run business of around 20 odd years and I think it's fair to say that Kim overseas everything anyway - I'm sure the lack of adspersus is not down to 1 staff member leaving but rather the honest and totally credible reasons he's given me. Internet gossip eh?
> 
> ...


the bit about them being eating was not said on the american forum infact no mention of taiwan, i asumed they were posibly being eating as i watched a programe on nat geo wild and they ate everything else that hopped swam or crawled :gasp: i just cant see all them big juicey frogs going over there and some not ending up on the dinner table:whistling2: but thats by the by, i think once something seems hard to get hold of people want it more human nature, im sorted anyway as i have 5 adspersus now and would only be on the look out for some ltc wc frogs as i do plan to have a go at breeding them in a year or twos time, but it was only a few month ago i was desparate for them nearly drove me insane lol,

cheers spencer.................


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

spencerburgo said:


> the bit about them being eating was not said on the american forum infact no mention of taiwan, i asumed they were posibly being eating as i watched a programe on nat geo wild and they ate everything else that hopped swam or crawled :gasp: i just cant see all them big juicey frogs going over there and some not ending up on the dinner table:whistling2: but thats by the by, i think once something seems hard to get hold of people want it more human nature, im sorted anyway as i have 5 adspersus now and would only be on the look out for some ltc wc frogs as i do plan to have a go at breeding them in a year or twos time, but it was only a few month ago i was desparate for them nearly drove me insane lol,
> 
> cheers spencer.................


 
Good luck with breeding them Spencer (and don't forget to have plenty of tamodine at the ready!), they're something I'd like to have a stab at in future but it's the space issue for me currently, I have way too many 'phibs as it is and don't have any more room for a spare greenhouse style setup. The only bigger species of anurans I plan to breed in the nearish future are Lepidobatrachus laevis, not that they are particularly large but you get my drift - Just it would be good to see more of the larger anurans bred in this country rather than relying on imports all the time, I do feel we are way way way behind the States in this respect but then they generally have a better climate for such things. Hopefully Andrew @ Pollywog will produce some more C.cranwelli this year - Can't think of too many other people breeding the bigger species in this country sadly.

Cheers
Al


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Funnily enough Al i was going through some paperwork the other day and came across an African import list from 5 years ago and they have adspersus listed on that at 3 dollars each obviously wc. I remember someone in the trade used to have hundreds of these and other amphibians put in there shipments just to fill the order.
leptopelis vermiculatus 1 dollar, another example of the prices things were coming out at

Richie


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## bobo10 (Sep 10, 2010)

i honestly think the best thing to do is know when the african shipments come in because at some time of the year they get flooded with these giant bullfrogs over in the states, probably there breeding season.
all you need to do is know someone that can go collect from africa then bring it to the US for you, then you can have it flown over.
obviously make sure you know is the ones your after but i think this is the only way your going to get them at the moment if your wanting them so bad.
or you can wait another year and hopefully Spencer will have bred his big boys up and you can get yourself some tads lol.
i hope you find them, iv been trying to find them for you aswel, but i have other stuff im trying to track down haha.
i know one guy down south that could be a hot ticket with these, so i will get onto him.
how bad are you wanting them.
thanks


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

richie.b said:


> Funnily enough Al i was going through some paperwork the other day and came across an African import list from 5 years ago and they have adspersus listed on that at 3 dollars each obviously wc. I remember someone in the trade used to have hundreds of these and other amphibians put in there shipments just to fill the order.
> leptopelis vermiculatus 1 dollar, another example of the prices things were coming out at
> 
> Richie


 
Unbelievable isn't it mate, just goes to show how quickly the market can turn around!.

Bobo - If whom you're on about is whom I think you're on about, then he's very recently cut down on importing of late, and is focusing on other areas.

Kim has kindly given me permission to circulate what he's told me, so I will add a couple of other bits of information. Firstly, the Taiwanese market has grown but they're not the only ones who have gone in for the adspersus, they certainly purchase alot but have not completely consumed the market as much as I perhaps suggested so best I clarify that point. He is simply putting his time into producing species that require less effort to breed, and is working more with the species that are his bread and butter so he has TEMPORARILY shifted his focus onto those species. He is also cutting down on several other species he produces so you MAY see a few others not as widely available as before, but I don't think it would be best to publish which 2 or 3 it is as it may give his competitors an idea to start working with those given species, and I wish to respect that. Also, he is still producing good numbers of adspersus (as I feel I need to remind some people of that - They're still out there!), just that they are in more limited numbers than they were, and most US distributors will therefore not put them on their lists because they know they can be sold within a couple of phonecalls and those distributors don't want the grief of the 'Why didn't I get any?' calls. Despite what is thought he really doesn't charge much for adspersus, and i think by the time any competitor was likely to get round to produce their own, everything will be back to normal anyway.

Cheers
Al


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

well ive just been browsing importers and they had giant african bullfrogs available went on there site and what are they dwarfs if people like this dont no what there doing :bash:
worldwidefauna.com

cheers spencer.................


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

spencerburgo said:


> well ive just been browsing importers and they had giant african bullfrogs available went on there site and what are they dwarfs if people like this dont no what there doing :bash:
> worldwidefauna.com
> 
> cheers spencer.................


Do you have a link to the exact Worldwide Fauna page you're talking about Spencer, as I can't find the misidentified ABF page on their site?.

Cheers
Al


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

Alex M said:


> Do you have a link to the exact Worldwide Fauna page you're talking about Spencer, as I can't find the misidentified ABF page on their site?.
> 
> Cheers
> Al


 WorldWideFauna.com

there you go:2thumb:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

spencerburgo said:


> WorldWideFauna.com
> 
> there you go:2thumb:


 
I think you've misinterpreted me bud, I mean the exact page on their site! 

Cheers
Al


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

spencerburgo said:


> WorldWideFauna.com
> 
> there you go:2thumb:


im on the site now trying to find the page as its slightly different to what it was a couple of hours ago will keep searching and when i find the page in question will send you the link for that page: victory:

cheers spencer..........


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

spencerburgo said:


> im on the site now trying to find the page as its slightly different to what it was a couple of hours ago will keep searching and when i find the page in question will send you the link for that page: victory:
> 
> cheers spencer..........


Good stuff mate - Maybe they read your post 

Cheers
Al


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

Alex M said:


> Good stuff mate - Maybe they read your post
> 
> Cheers
> Al


 lol, no i was just mooching as you do when your board, you open up one page then another within another and quite frankly its dam hard tracing your steps lol, it would not show prices unless you had an acount but the picture with there advert was 100% edulis you would think they would have the sense to swap pictures:lol2:when i tried to copy the origonal page link it would not let me thats why i just typed it in it might of been an old advert never even thought of looking at the date on it,

cheers spencer.............


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

spencerburgo said:


> lol, no i was just mooching as you do when your board, you open up one page then another within another and quite frankly its dam hard tracing your steps lol, it would not show prices unless you had an acount but the picture with there advert was 100% edulis you would think they would have the sense to swap pictures:lol2:when i tried to copy the origonal page link it would not let me thats why i just typed it in it might of been an old advert never even thought of looking at the date on it,
> 
> cheers spencer.............


No worries, I wasn't sure what page you'd seen as when you type 'adspersus' in the WF search engine you get adspersus but 'no current image' - Plus the picture that accompanies the edulis is correct. I'm not sure for certain but am fairly confident that those adspersus will have come from Kim aswell.

Cheers
Al


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

Alex M said:


> No worries, I wasn't sure what page you'd seen as when you type 'adspersus' in the WF search engine you get adspersus but 'no current image' - Plus the picture that accompanies the edulis is correct. I'm not sure for certain but am fairly confident that those adspersus will have come from Kim aswell.
> 
> Cheers
> Al


they were from mozambiqe as it was wc stuff i was looking at i have tried and all i can think is it was an out of date page,

cheers spencer..............


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