# Hots Conditioned To Handling (Theoretically)?



## Richo (Jan 4, 2008)

So the reputation for venomous snakes is generally that they are fairly defensive and would readily bite if annoyed. This may or may not be the case (and I have no experience to speak of in this respect) but are there any venomous snakes that could theoretically be conditioned to be calm with being handled in the same way that many constricing species can be?

Perhaps this has been tried in snakes that have had their venom glands and/or fangs removed?

I ask purely out of curiosity.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yes it is possible and has been demonstrated in the past


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

King Cobras have been as far as I am aware, they are incredibly intelligent animals.


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## bumble (Oct 13, 2010)

The problem with conditioning and snakes Is primarily two fold. Firstly the costs are extremely high in the example proposed above, and secondarily to achieve a desired behavior as an outcome, a reward will elicit the greatest response. Sadly snakes are not easy to gratify. For example they don't eat very often and even when they do the time it takes to strike/swallow limits the intensity of the association between desired behavior and reward. It is to a degree possible, I've personally employed conditioning techniques with many snakes, lizards (Varanus, Heloderma) and some young crocs with reasonable results, however, as I mentioned earlier if the risks were increased I wouldn't be so confident. I've seen some good work with King Cobras who do seem to be very intelligent, but again you'd have to put your faith in equipment in addition to relying on the conditioning completely. 
A snake Learning that when it is handled it is safe, can and has many times led to exactly that - a well handled snake. It'd be very interesting to see further structured research into it, but the question remains; would we fully rely on this comparatively weak association when the risks are to more than your pride?
(Of course pop to Oz and a fair few will swear that large elapids are much calmer when handled so who knows)


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

bumble said:


> The problem with conditioning and snakes Is primarily two fold. Firstly the costs are extremely high in the example proposed above, and secondarily to achieve a desired behavior as an outcome, a reward will elicit the greatest response. Sadly snakes are not easy to gratify. For example they don't eat very often and even when they do the time it takes to strike/swallow limits the intensity of the association between desired behavior and reward. It is to a degree possible, I've personally employed conditioning techniques with many snakes, lizards (Varanus, Heloderma) and some young crocs with reasonable results, however, as I mentioned earlier if the risks were increased I wouldn't be so confident. I've seen some good work with King Cobras who do seem to be very intelligent, but again you'd have to put your faith in equipment in addition to relying on the conditioning completely.
> A snake Learning that when it is handled it is safe, can and has many times led to exactly that - a well handled snake. It'd be very interesting to see further structured research into it, but the question remains; would we fully rely on this comparatively weak association when the risks are to more than your pride?
> (Of course pop to Oz and a fair few will swear that large elapids are much calmer when handled so who knows)


Personally, I don't see rewarding a snakes behaviour as a viable way to condition them. Some snakes have ferocious feeding responses, but some can be very picky, and only eat when alone. Stressing them out by trying to use food as a reward may lead to a problem feeding snake.

With my lot, I've got a kind of mutual trust thing going on. I take my time, move around slowly, and handle them gently. I don't use tongs, only hooks and tail (depending on species). Most have now figured out I'm not a threat, and let me get on with what needs to be done, without kicking up a fuss (but some haven't). Yes, they can be a little flighty at times, but so can a none venomous snake. If they do try and bite, it's usually due to something I've done - pinning them, removing retained sheds, eye caps, assist feeding, probing, ect ect. 

When cleaning them out, rather then putting them in a box or bag, I just leave them on the floor. They'll usually stay in the corner of the room, and when it's time to go back, I move them close to their enclosure with a hook, and then gently hook and tail them back into their homes. Takes no longer than it would with a none venomous snake, and at times it can be even quicker. I only box them if they play up, or if they're being a little too flighty. 

The only problem with mutual trust, is that it's easily broken, and often impossible (or at least very difficult) to repair. I've had this happen with a few snakes, where I've had to do an invasive, and uncomfortable (for the snake) procedure. After such a procedure, it's possible the snake can associate being taken out of their enclosure as a negative thing, and their fight or flight response kicks in. If they perceive the threat to be genuine, their natural reaction is to bite (if they can't escape), and given the speed and agility of some hots, it could be quite an experience for the handler. 

As for the original question, there's no reason why a venomous snake couldn't be conditioned to free handling. I have at least 3 snakes that I could quite confidently free handle. Most notably, my adult male western diamondback. When I first inquired about the snake, I was sent a pic of the previous owner sat on a couch, with the snake on his lap! When I questioned him about it (and called him crazy), he replied by saying he'd been doing it for years, and never had a problem. I've had him for two years now, and he's the calmest rattlesnake I've ever seen. He's never rattled, never struck, doesn't coil up in threat pose, and he even takes his food gently. I'd bet my house that he wouldn't bite if handled, but I wouldn't go as far as betting my life. 

I think most hots are more defensive, not just because they're venomous, but because of the way they're handled. Most are brought up with almost no human contact, so they're not use being manhandled. Even if the snake is naturally placid, any snake can have a bad day. If that happens with a corn, all you get is a few pin pricks, but with a hot; it could be a life or death situation. A handable hot just isn't worth risking your life for, which is one of the reasons I also keep a lot of none venomous snakes. The wife and kids need something they can handle.

NOTE: By 'mutual trust', I don't mean actual trust, as snakes will never fully trust a person, and I'd never fully trust a snake. It would be more accurate to say, we have an understanding. However, that understanding can go in a flash, and without warning, a snake can strike out for no apparent reason. This understanding doesn't work with all snakes, some stay as wild as they would be in their natural surroundings, and never calm down.


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## bumble (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry maybe I didn't make myself clear, I wasn't suggesting food as the reward was the best route I was merely using a common (the most common?) Example of a reward. Basically I meant that to achieve a strong association between a trigger and a behavior the reward should be of a high value and traditional ones (such as food) are less appropriate with snakes because the immediacy of the trigger-behavior-reward pattern is possibly redundant because of what I and you outlined above. We're making the same point.
When dealing with these dangerous animals you can build trust yes, but to train/condition is very complex, and if its you on the pointy end you can't trust the trust as it were. 
I'm not disagreeing, I'm trying to clarify my point that the obstructions to a successful conditioned behavior are many in number in the context of classical or operant conditioning when dealing with snakes.


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## bumble (Oct 13, 2010)

Forgot to say, by reward I don't just mean food etc, I meant as something positive that reinforces the desired behavior. Calmly working with the animal is an example of that, but it's not the strongest reward and as a result the association will be weaker and therefore the risk of the behavior not being elicited higher.
Thanks


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

bumble said:


> Sorry maybe I didn't make myself clear, I wasn't suggesting food as the reward was the best route I was merely using a common (the most common?) Example of a reward. Basically I meant that to achieve a strong association between a trigger and a behavior the reward should be of a high value and traditional ones (such as food) are less appropriate with snakes because the immediacy of the trigger-behavior-reward pattern is possibly redundant because of what I and you outlined above. We're making the same point.
> When dealing with these dangerous animals you can build trust yes, but to train/condition is very complex, and if its you on the pointy end you can't trust the trust as it were.
> I'm not disagreeing, I'm trying to clarify my point that the obstructions to a successful conditioned behavior are many in number in the context of classical or operant conditioning when dealing with snakes.





bumble said:


> Forgot to say, by reward I don't just mean food etc, I meant as something positive that reinforces the desired behavior. Calmly working with the animal is an example of that, but it's not the strongest reward and as a result the association will be weaker and therefore the risk of the behavior not being elicited higher.
> Thanks


Chill out dude, my post wasn't aimed directly at you. I never said or thought you were saying food is a good reward for snakes. I was just sharing my thoughts on a subject within your post.


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## bumble (Oct 13, 2010)

Yeah its all good, Was just keen that this interesting subject didn't get sidetracked by my unclear written English. To be fair its a car crash before autocorrect


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

the only time ive seen this work was negative re-enforcment with the cobra charmers in india after a while the cobras get wise and will no longer hood up for the tourists so every season they go out and replace them with juveniles and release or eat the adults problem with this is then u have a cobra that doesnt hood up and isnt scared of humans


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## longqi (Feb 18, 2011)

King cobras are the simplest example of training venomous snakes
You can do things with kings that nobody dares do with most other elapids including other cobras
Because of their fixation with whatever is directly in front of them and their apparent inability to strike backwards or sideways they are very easy to play with

I had a 'pet' red bellied black in Aus that hundreds of people handled with ease
But Ive never seen a taipan or mamba I felt I could trust

For me vipers and adders would also fit into the no handling category

But there are exceptions to every rule
If breeding was focused on temperament rather than colour the result may be very different


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