# Spanish say 'no way hose' to Exotic Animal Keeping



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I know topics covering the keeping of large reptiles in Spain was discussed late last year/early this.

But it is interesting to see that now for some, exotic keeping is to be prohibited .........

Yes this article is two months old, but it is only because a colleague of mine has been asked to assist in the rehoming of a Racoon, that l thought it was perhaps interesting to show now.

How long one must ask before we see this happening elsewhere?

New restrictions on the ownership of exotic pets and dangerous dogs in Andalucía 


The Doberman is being added to the list of dangerous breeds in the region 
The residents of Andalucía have six months to hand over or get rid of their strange pets. New legislation in the region is set to prohibit crocodiles or large reptiles, monkeys, spiders or poisonous insects, and lions being kept as personal pets. The new rules say such animals can no longer be kept at home.

And new restrictions on the ownership of dogs considered to be of a dangerous breed are also on the way. The Doberman is being added to the list of dangerous dogs and that means that a muzzle will always have to be placed on the dog when in the street, which will also have to be kept on a lead of less than 1 metre in length. Owners will have to keep the dog’s documentation on them in public, and they will not be allowed entry to places where there are children. 

Owners have until October to adapt to the new legislation.

New restrictions on the ownership of exotic pets and dangerous dogs in AndalucÃ*a

Rory Matier
PKA


edit 1: addition to post

SPAIN: Tough new law, restrictions for pit bulls & other “dangerous dogs” - Gary Bogue - Pets and wildlife

"...... 
I did a little checking on the Internet and discovered that the dangerous dog regulations in the story above also contain some interesting laws for other types of “dangerous pets” in Southern Spain.

*For example:*

“Under the new system, large reptiles, poisonous insects and large primates will not be allowed in Andalucian households and people who flout the law could be hit with a fine of 115,000 euros ($174,811 U.S. dollars). People living in the region who already own such pets will be given a six-month period to take the forbidden animal to their local city hall and hand it over … “


----------



## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

Ominous - what provoked this change in the law?


----------



## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

isn't this like the dwa that we have over here.


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

NBLADE said:


> isn't this like the dwa that we have over here.


 
key word "forbidden" so not like DWA
regards gaz


----------



## wozza_t (Jan 4, 2007)

This might make people realise it is not going to go away.

Getting abit close to home now isn't it? :censor:


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

well having looked at the thread in "snakes" i can only conclude that the threat is being approached in the usual way
1:ignore it
2:deny it
regards gaz


----------



## erialc (Apr 6, 2008)

I find it a terrifying piece of 'legislation'. I headed over to the Pro Keepers Lobby this am for some reading up as I had seen it in a couple of sig's on here.

Going back over there to read up some more, I am a new owner of a Royal Snake and :blush: much to my shame didn't realise there was a treat to all keepers of anything considered exotic.

Please excuse my ignorance, I am learning so much on here though.

Thank for the post and the nudge I needed to keep me informed!

Claire


----------



## erialc (Apr 6, 2008)

I find it a terrifying piece of 'legislation'. I headed over to the Pro Keepers Lobby this am for some reading up as I had seen it in a couple of sig's on here.

Going back over there to read up some more, I am a new owner of a Royal Snake and :blush: much to my shame didn't realise there was a threat to all keepers of anything considered exotic.

Please excuse my ignorance, I am learning so much on here though.

thanks for the post and the nudge I needed to become more imformed.

Claire


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I cant really see any link between the laws of a Spanish region to our own to be fair. I dont think it has any bearing on our laws what they are doing there.


----------



## bronzeyis200 (Jan 25, 2008)

Andy said:


> I cant really see any link between the laws of a Spanish region to our own to be fair. I dont think it has any bearing on our laws what they are doing there.


I tend to agree with you, it's only a region within Spain? Not all of Spain?
Correct me if I'm wrong.....

I would possibly be a bit more worried if it was a blanket law for the whole country.
Also, I reckon the people who have introduced this law realise that it will be near impossible to police so have slapped a ridiculously large fine onto the legislation to scare people into just giving them up instead of the people in charge actively searching for them.
For this reason I think we will be safe for the forseeable future, our government and police are forever complaining about either lack of funds or lack of man power so the logistics of doing something like this and the costs behind it would render it a no go.


Edit.......... Also, where would they house all these confiscated exotics?? There are far too many for all the zoo's and safari parks therefore the only option would be to cull them, sort of defeats the object doesn't it because one of their main reasons would be the usual arguement that they shouldn't be kept as pets, it's cruel etc... and culling them isn't!!???


----------



## Cyberlizard (Apr 1, 2008)

I cordially disagree. What happens in one EC country has relevance to all the rest.

In any case, as herpetophiles we ought to oppose any legislation which is based on what appears to be ignorance, prejudice or a hidden AR agenda.


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I know of no other law started in a region of Spain that has then been applied to the UK.


----------



## ratley (Nov 17, 2007)

So I take it that we just sit back and.............. wait?

I bet the people who live in Andalucia thought 'well it hasn't happened anywhere else why should it happen to us?'


By the time we think about it, it will be too late!!


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

So what do you want to do? I have heard of the talk of the banning of reptiles for years but still haven't seen any evidence of this happening? We have had the Dangerous Dogs Act for many years before it has happened in Andalucia.


----------



## ratley (Nov 17, 2007)

the point I was trying to make is ~ it has happened!
Where it has happened doesn't really matter, thats just geography, the fact that someone (higher up the 'we make the rules' ladder) has decided that certain animals should be 'outlawed'. These are the animals that we all enjoy, I would be devastated if forced to give mine up.
I shall certainly be trying to find out what I can get involved in to 'help' our cause, be it in Spain, Dorset or the tiny village of Up Nately! (little village in the back of beyond).
Why should other people do all the work for us? I want to ensure I keep my pets.


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

When you find out what we are supposed to be doing let me know and I will join in : victory:​


----------



## ratley (Nov 17, 2007)

I most certainly will : victory:

I just hope other people will feel the same.:whistling2:


----------



## bronzeyis200 (Jan 25, 2008)

ratley said:


> I most certainly will : victory:
> 
> I just hope other people will feel the same.:whistling2:


 
If it came to it, I'm sure all "exotic" keepers would have something to say about it.
I would definitely take a proactive stance, and I would bet that a lot of my friends would help out even though some of them are actually scared of my snakes!!haha

Even if it got to the same state that Andalucia are in, I wouldn't own up to having my snakes, I know the people who know I have them wouldn't say anything.
This is why I think it would be an impossible task for any authority to uphold.
There are a lot more exotic keepers than people think so the numbers would be far too much for anyone to do anything about!!
Which brings it back to my first couple of lines, the amount of people who would object would (hopefully) force the authorities to rethink any ideas they had about doing something similar.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL (Apr 23, 2005)

Spain needs a bit of a shake up in my opinion, on my last visit there was street markets selling all manner of pets in cramped cages from turtles in sawdust! to parrots in budgie cages and in the local hypermarket you could buy crocodiles for about 100 euro's from a fish tank.

But its illegal to own a staffordshire bull terrier, crazy place!


----------



## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

pink said:


> Spain needs a bit of a shake up in my opinion, on my last visit there was street markets selling all manner of pets in cramped cages from turtles in sawdust! to parrots in budgie cages and in the local hypermarket you could buy crocodiles for about 100 euro's from a fish tank.
> 
> But its illegal to own a staffordshire bull terrier, crazy place!


but no more crazy than this place,thats the point
regards gaz


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Over the weekend l did some more digging around of this article and managed to retrieve some more.

Whilst it may be all too easy to suggest this does not affect us, l think it should be remembered that Spain is indeed part of Europe, and also how many countries within Europe already that are not allowed to keep certain exotics?

How long before we do see something like this appear?

Forgive the spellings, they are the result of the babel translation, but l have to be honest, still sufficient to keep us informed. This document as you can see is dated June 2007, yet the original document of my post is dated February 2008. So in 8 months, this region of Spain declared war upon the exotic keeper and won. For here we are in April 2008, and those same keepers have till October this year to offload.

22/06/2007 18:26 Europe Press. SEVILLE. Andalusia will be the first Spanish independent community that will prohibit "taxativamente" the wild, exotic or poisonous animal possession considered as ' mascotas' in the address with fines of up to 15,025 euros, the objective to face the "existing legal emptiness" and in benefit of the security of the population. 

In press conference, the advisor of Interior, Evangelina Naranjo, explained that once between in east vigor decree at the end of the present year or principles of 2008, will be prohibited to have like mascots to caymans, crocodiles and poisonous serpents, as well as to reptiles of more than two kilos of weight, nobody primate, wild mammals superior to ten kilos of weight and all the fish and artrópodos whose poison represents a risk for the person. Thus, these species will only be able to be located in reserved places and authorized, case of research centers, zoological and other centers that count on administrative authorization.

Also, the decree Andalusian on Potentially Dangerous Animal Possession includes 15 races of dogs, whose proprietors must acquire a series of conditions and requirements for their possession in next the six months. These conditions, "very strict, harder than those than established the state Law of 1999" establishes a special license and to tell on an insurance of civil responsibility to cover the possible personal or material damages that they can produce by a noninferior cover to 175,000 euros by wreck. The races are Pitt Bull Terrier; Staffordshire Bull Terrier (American Staffordshire Terrier); Rottweiler; Argentine Dogo; Brasileiro Row; Tosa lnu; Akita Inu; American Pitbull Terrier; Bullmastif; Dobermann; Dogo of Bordeaux; Dogo of Tibet; Mastín Napolitano; Canary prey and Imprisoned Majorcan (Ca de Bou).

In order to obtain license, that is transacted before the city council of the municipality in which it resides, the future to title of the mascot must be of legal age, not be condemned by a series of crimes - homicide, against the public health, etc and to count on a certificate of physical conditioning and psychological aptitude, that will be obtained such in medical centers that the documentation for the driver's license. In addition, to the proprietors a special identification card will be facilitated to them that will be distinguished to be crossed by a red band and that the caretaker of the animal will have to take always above when he leaves with him.

In addition, one of the main new features of this norm is that it prohibits to train them for the attack, keeps or defense from its proprietors, or to give any type them of training that increases its aggressiveness, which will be sanctioned as it lacks very serious with fines of between 2,400 and 15,025 euros. It will only be possible to be instructed to the dogs of the Forces and Bodies of Security of the State, the Army, the Firemen or companies of security - these last previous official authorization -.

As additional safety measure will be prohibited that the potentially dangerous dogs accede to places destined the minors; when they journey by the route will be forced to take muzzle and to go tied by a nontensile strap of a meter at the most of length and in case of loss they must communicate it in 24 hours - in both cases half that in the state norm -. the facilities or houses where these dogs reside will have to also reunite characteristic special, with a visible signaling, sufficiently high walls and fences, solid doors to guarantee that the animal pushes out of position them or opens. Finally, before dogs with biological agent behaviors, the authorities can order their sacrifice, whereas in case of animals left and asilvestrados that is causing damages it would be possible to be gotten to authorize a hunting search. 

Animals with microchip

At the present time a total of 977,856 animals identified and registered in the Registry exists Andalusian of Identificacio'n Animal (RAIA), that started up in 2005 the Council of Interior and that manages the Council Andalusian of Veterinary Schools. The 95 percent of the unit set is dogs, concretely 931,289, of which 25,322 are dangerous dogs, a 2.7 percent of the dogs. As far as the races of the dangerous dogs, almost half is to rottweiler (12.314), being second in importance pit bull (7.366) and staffordshire bull to terrier (2.146), american stafforshire to terrier (1.456) and dogo Argentine (1.141). The presence of the rest of races in Andalusia, as much of akita-inu (533 units), of the Brazilian row (357) and of tosa-inu is minority (9).

Comments from a Spanish Forum:

Some of the species that the Meeting of Andalusia wants to prohibit or to restrict in its use and property (PHOTO: FILE) 15 races of dogs in the list are included. Whoever to have them they will have to obtain license.
Andalusia will be the first Spanish independent community that will prohibit "taxativamente" the wild, exotic or poisonous animal possession considered as ' mascotas' in the address with fines of up to 15,025 euros, the objective to face the "existing legal emptiness" and in benefit of the security of the population. In press conference, the advisor of Interior, Evangelina Naranjo, explained that once between in east vigor decree at the end of the present year or principles of 2008, will be prohibited to have like mascots to caymans, crocodiles and poisonous serpents, as well as to reptiles of more than two kilos of weight, nobody primate, wild mammals superior to ten kilos of weight and all the fish and artrópodos whose poison represents a risk for the person.

The Meeting of Andalusia is preparing a law to prohibit to have exotic animals like domestic animals. If it prospers we can take leave of nuestroa amphibious, reptiles and invertebrates... We must be to the parrot and protest if it is necessary. In Andalusia there are pressing environmental problems much more and, sometimes, the own Meeting fails to fulfill the law. In addition, already it is the CHALLENGES and other agreements.... Positions thus also will be prohibited to have hens and turkeys, because they are not native

Hello to all! I tell you what I have found out on the decree of Potentially Dangerous Animal Possession. This decree will prohibit to have poisonous serpents, caymans, crocodiles, as well as reptiles of more than 2 kg of weight, nobody primate, wild mammals of more than 10 kg and all the fish and artrópodos whose poison can be potentially dangerous for the humans. East Asímismo decree will prohibit the possession of species prohibited under fine of up to 15025 euros. The presence of these potentially dangerous Animals will be limited zoological, being prohibited in particular addresses. Judge by you yourself. My opinion is that he will not be so serious. Greetings!


And l think this is the offending document

http://www.castro-urdiales.net/ayuntamiento/ordenanzas/Ordenanza%20de%20Animales%20Potencialmente%20Peligrosos.doc

REGULATING MUNICIPAL ORDINANCE OF THE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS ANIMAL POSSESSION

Article 1.º - the object of the present Decree is the regulation, in the scope of the competitions of this local organization, of the potentially dangerous animal possession, to make it with the security of people and goods compatible and other animals, in harmony with the established thing by Law 50/1999, of 23 of December, on the Legal Regime of the Potentially Dangerous Animal Possession, by Decree 287/2002 of 22 of March of development and modification of Law 50/1999 and in Decree 64/1999 of 11 of June by that it regulates the identification and possession of dogs of guard race and defense in Cantabria.

Article 3.º - potentially dangerous animals consider themselves all those that, being used like domestic animals, of company or monitoring, independently of its aggressiveness or the species or race to which they belong, are at least in some of the following assumptions: a) Animals that by their characteristics have capacity to cause to the death or injuries to the people or other animals and damages to the things. b) Animals with antecedents of aggressions or violence with people or other animals.

Rory


Just a side note, but think about this:
.......................as well as reptiles of more than 2 kg of weight

What species of reptile will fall into this catagory alone?


----------



## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

So yet another nail in the reptile keeping coffin.

Laws and restrictions tend to spread. So the old 'it won't happen to us' is just kidding yourself.

So let's just have a little round up of European restrictions on reptile keeping;

*Belgiam*, *License needed for keeping snakes*, this involves making sure your waste water supply used for the reptiles doesn't mix with the rest of your household water, you also need to put a poster on your front door declaring your intention.

*Portugal*, *NO boids (pythons or boas) allowed* to be kept in private hands (although oddly enough there's no restriction on cobras or rattlesnakes)

*Spain*, regional restrictions as listed in this thread.

*Germany*, introduction of licenses and total bans on keeping venomous, this is done per 'county/region'

*France* also has tight restriction on large lizards, although I can't remember the full details.

*EU* - Ban on the import of Amphibians (probably within 6 months)

Now what really p1sses me off is the fact that within our reptile/amphibian community we have proffesors, Lawlers, doctors, scientists, celebrities, zoo workers, vets...what the [email protected]#k are we doing to unite everyone and tap in on our massive potential for a proper pro-reptile keeping campaign? What do we have in terms of a PR machine that can go into action to debunk newspaper stories and AR campaigns. Have we actually got a list of all those willing to help? Have we got anyone recruiting new 'pro-keepers'? Have we a great web resource that people can go on to see what action they can take against the different proposals. The simple answer is No, we have none of that.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Scott, 

I can sympathise with what you are saying, highlighting and generating with this response.

The sad fact is, and you will recall we had a similiar conversation at one of the shows last year.

That unless keepers genuinely start to realise and comprehend that there is and are problems then uniting all will never happen.

Those of whom deny or ignore but choose to walk the path of apathy, will lead the others, for if one does not believe then there are tens, scores of tens that will choose to not believe.

Whilst it is all too easy to criticise those that are trying, it is simply a small unit. Too small a unit.

The handful of keepers that have been trying to convince others of the dangers and pitfalls that plague this hobby and the industry have been tagged scaremongerers and fearmongerers. 

Here in this forum alone, l have doctored my writing to suit the ambient atmosphere and approaching from different angles.

It is too easy to just simply blame the likes of the RSPCA, when governments alone are influenced by the likes of the true antis those in the forms of PETA, CAPS, AA. The former have thousands of supporters, and it is the likes of these that do influence the governments.

It is the government of Spain that has incorporated that has introduced this, but one must ask who influenced, but more importantly was there any fight to defend its approach?

Unless, people believe that there is a genuine threat to what they believe in, people will always just choose to sit in a corner and wait it out.

It reminds me now of a pm l received last year from a member, 'Rory, why bother, when reptiles is banned, keepers will simply buy a dog or another one'

That is the shape of these communities.

There is no fight in the 90% of all keepers, they want to be left alone, but it is only when all hell breaks loose that they get angry.

Rory


----------



## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

looks like the spanish have run out of goats so they have resorted to throwing exotics from church towers.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

The sad fact is that those who fight to ban things fare far better than those who fight to keep them. It is the way of the country.

I would estimate that if there are say 5,000,000 people that want to keep reptiles there will be 50,000,000 that would rather they weren't kept... why ? No reason other than their perception that reptiles are not nice ( no, I have no proof of these numbers... I have made them up to make the point that very few people actually like reptiles )

Banning stuff is easy !!! Fox hunting, Dog breeds, Birds, Guns ... all it takes is a couple of bad news reports with the public at risk and you are on your way with as near as dammit total public support through moral outrage. If one person is killed by a giant constrictor or by a venomous snake then banning them will be simple.

Basically any hobby where there is a perceived potential danger be it real or not is alive at the whim of the public. If the public turn against it, the government will turn against it to get votes, or the opposition will turn against it to discredit the government and get public sympathy.

The public is already of the belief that reptiles are disease ridden animals that will make their kids ill if they touch them... and that was just a salmonella campaign launched during the mutant ninja turtle campaign... mud sticks.

If the EU really get behind the banning of exotics and the public are in agreement with them... there will be nothing we can do about it regardless of who and how many we have or do not have on our side.

There were THOUSANDS of people that came out in support of fox hunting... and how far did they get ? Nowhere.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

ratboy said:


> The sad fact is that those who fight to ban things fare far better than those who fight to keep them. It is the way of the country.
> 
> I would estimate that if there are say 5,000,000 people that want to keep reptiles there will be 50,000,000 that would rather they weren't kept... why ? No reason other than their perception that reptiles are not nice ( no, I have no proof of these numbers... I have made them up to make the point that very few people actually like reptiles )
> 
> ...


Good post Steve,

Valid points all...........

Sad fact is this, of 66 million people living in the UK today, two thirds keep animals - so roughly 44 million keep an animal, and if l look back to the 2005 figures [ l feel sure Chris can correct me] reptile keepers are on the increase, back then l think it was 5,000,000 in fact that did keep reptiles. [So that figure of yours Steve, is fairly accurate].

But of the 44,000,000 - 5 million = 39 million that keep other animals, BUT how many of those 39 agree with keeping reptiles?

Look at this forum, how many of you all agree with the keeping of primates, and l assure you there are not 5 million primate keepers?

So lets say that there are roughly 15 million of the 44 million who are 'exotics' keepers' , this 15 million, might be less, might be more judging on the estimates of 2005 with the increase in collectors. So we are now left with 29 million that keep animals, such as dogs, cats, fish, birds, guinea pigs and rabbits, and others. How many of those agree with exotics being kept?

How many of those are supportive of the Government of today?

Our 15 million est. keepers may in fact be not just opposed by a percentage of the 29 million, but are most assuredly opposed by the remainder of the UK's residency's, so that could be something akin to 30+ million people who oppose the keeping of anything out of the norm!

Now l like Steve, do not know all the figure work, but l do know that the opposition is hard, and every one thinks that the opposition is just the likes of the RSPCA, but its not, it is the empathy voter, the hard core opposition as mentioned above and of course the governments who must appease the greater percentage of the voting community.

Animal welfare and supportive legislation are in fact top priority nowdays, we live in a community that does not want nor wish to see certain animal groups being kept by private keepers, and some of those do not really even wish for them to be maintained in captivity at all.

The focus in my personal opinion, should not be now attacking into the opposition so much, and that is not denying their guilt in certain areas, but the focus should be on promoting responsibility, improved husbandry, a better captive care life for the charges we cater to.

It is way too easy to attack certain bodies, the tough task is to make those same bodies see that we do care about our animals as much as we pledge.

Hence, why l alongside others are now demanding improved education, codes of practice be written now, not just pushed under the carpet for another year. Ignore these l say at our peril, for it is the likes of these codes, that our futures rest upon.

Continue to displace their importance, and hobbyists will lose their abilities to keep.

Simple.

R


----------

