# Breeding from the same clutch?



## stuart89

Hello, is it a problem if you breed two snakes that came from the same clutch?

Cheers.


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## LiamG

As long as both snakes are healthy and the species/morph does not have any inheritable disorders then I personaly do not have a problem with it, alot of people do not like it but just as an example alot of royal python morphs are created/proven out by putting siblings together or parents to offspring.
However inbreeding siblings just for the hell of it and not for a specific purpose, i do consider to be wrong.


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## oakelm

The general rule is dont do it if you can avoid it. But if you a breeding to a specific trait or morph then you will most probably need too.


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## SnakeBreeder

In breeding in snakes and lizards does not seem to be a problem till you get a few geneations of brother / sister breeding.
I have heard of lines being bred to F8 before problems were seen.
However if an unrelated animal is available, that has the traites you need, then that is a much better option, most of the time.
Stephen


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## stuart89

Thanks for the replies, I will try to swap one of the snakes with an unrelated if possible.


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## cornmorphs

stuart89 said:


> Thanks for the replies, I will try to swap one of the snakes with an unrelated if possible.


 its the best way if you can.. but not always needed, i think stephen said it it all really.


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## Molly75

Can't remember where this info came from as I've had it in my head for years but as a rule reptiles are predisposed to deal with 2 generations of interbreeding in the wild.

CB wise I've seen probs from F4 onwards 
Paula


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## GlasgowGecko

SnakeBreeder said:


> In breeding in snakes and lizards does not seem to be a problem till you get a few geneations of brother / sister breeding.
> I have heard of lines being bred to F8 before problems were seen.
> However if an unrelated animal is available, that has the traites you need, then that is a much better option, most of the time.
> Stephen


This pretty much sums up the basic points as it will apply to most hobbyist breeders. If you read around you will see examples of full sib matings (with selection) not showing any negative effects through a whole range of generations. Unfortunately there are NO hard and fast rules, it is all dependent on which deleterious alleles are present in both snakes, and there is no way to predict this...



Molly75 said:


> Can't remember where this info came from as I've had it in my head for years but as a rule reptiles are predisposed to deal with 2 generations of interbreeding in the wild.
> 
> CB wise I've seen probs from F4 onwards
> Paula


Unfortunately this rule isn't correct, it is impossible to have a coping mechanism to overcome deleterious alleles (in either ressesive homozygotes or dominant heterozygotes) on the individual level. On the population level you have purging, which is another way to overcome this problem.

Andy


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## HadesDragons

GlasgowGecko said:


> Unfortunately this rule isn't correct, it is impossible to have a coping mechanism to overcome deleterious alleles (in either ressesive homozygotes or dominant heterozygotes) on the individual level. On the population level you have purging, which is another way to overcome this problem.
> 
> Andy


"Unfortunately" because we can take genetically less-than-perfect animals to the vet to keep them in good enough health to breed, purging isn't really something seen in captivity, at least not until the deleterious alleles start really accumulating or you start seeing homozygous forms of particularly severe alleles around. 

As inbreeding depression, selection, genetic fitness etc are pretty complex subjects that aren't broadly understood by the average casual hobbyist, I would always say it's better to be safe than sorry and to ensure that you don't inbreed. For starters, unless you know the recent ancestry of the animals it's impossible to know if / when the line was last inbred - what seems to be a single generation of inbreeding to you could actually be the third, fourth, fifth time it's happened in as many generations. I would say that unless you have actually discovered a new gene that you want to prove out (and in all honesty, the odds of it happening to anyone reading are slim-to-none), the safest, most responsible way to breed is to take every step possible to ensure that your animals aren't closely related before breeding them and - if planning on a long-term breeding programme - to get your animals from diverse sources and to bring in new animals during the programme to give you some extra genetic diversity.


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## GlasgowGecko

HadesDragons said:


> "Unfortunately" because we can take genetically less-than-perfect animals to the vet to keep them in good enough health to breed, purging isn't really something seen in captivity, at least not until the deleterious alleles start really accumulating or you start seeing homozygous forms of particularly severe alleles around.
> 
> As inbreeding depression, selection, genetic fitness etc are pretty complex subjects that aren't broadly understood by the average casual hobbyist, I would always say it's better to be safe than sorry and to ensure that you don't inbreed. For starters, unless you know the recent ancestry of the animals it's impossible to know if / when the line was last inbred - what seems to be a single generation of inbreeding to you could actually be the third, fourth, fifth time it's happened in as many generations. I would say that unless you have actually discovered a new gene that you want to prove out (and in all honesty, the odds of it happening to anyone reading are slim-to-none), the safest, most responsible way to breed is to take every step possible to ensure that your animals aren't closely related before breeding them and - if planning on a long-term breeding programme - to get your animals from diverse sources and to bring in new animals during the programme to give you some extra genetic diversity.


I wasn't really suggesting purging as a method of inbreeding depression avoidance in captivity, more that it is the only real method that has the the desired effect.
Personally I would purge (if my own humble breeding program required it). You are then left with the dilema of what to do with the less than perfect offspring. I do agree to a large extent, that for general breeders avoidance is the best method, although on the larger scale inbreeding is generally an under-appreciated speciation, and survival method.

Andy


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## KimmyD

how about step-sibling breeding?


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