# dog whisperer



## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

what are you opinions on ceaser milan? do you agree with his methods and techniques?


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

I think he is good he has bad problem with a couple of dogs a aggressive gsd which he failed and a wolf hybrid which he had trouble with. i think he is one of if not the best, he clearly understands dog behavior very well, and his tech see,m to be good also.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Congratulations.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

On a more serious note, I much MUCH prefer Victoria Stillwell's approach.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeh, this always gets heated.

Personally I like him and the majority of his methods.


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## RepBex (Jan 17, 2008)

i think he tells the owners what is what thats the good thing but sometimes he treats the dogs with no respect even if he does want to be the pack leader 

at least it makes a good show watchin him gettin attacked lol


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

how have i opened a can of worms i am only asking peoples opinion on him as i have just started watching him i thing he is very good and DADDY rules


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

beardyLover said:


> at least it makes a good show watchin him gettin attacked lol


pmsl. Agreed.


Hehehehe..


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

For some people, it's their way or you're wrong..... :whistling2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> how have i opened a can of worms i am only asking peoples opinion on him as i have just started watching him i thing he is very good and DADDY rules


Oh, so you haven't seen the past 80,000 threads on him then? :lol2:


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Oh, so you haven't seen the past 80,000 threads on him then? :lol2:


no if i would of i wouldnt of started this one i normaly only go on lizards, snakes and off-topic


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

beardyLover said:


> i think he tells the owners what is what thats the good thing but sometimes he treats the dogs with no respect even if he does want to be the pack leader
> 
> at least it makes a good show watchin him gettin attacked lol


 I wouldn't say he treats them with no respect hes firm! which you need to be with a dog. i have seen too many people who are soft and the dogs walks all over them


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Love him. Thing is hes not about training hes about teaching you to think like your dog so you can control the dog better.

And you right Daddy RAWKS!!!!!!!!!!










Marina


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> no if i would of i wouldnt of started this one i normaly only go on lizards, snakes and off-topic


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/278517-dog-whisperer.html
Scroll down to bosshoggs first post and from then on:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/214092-bitches-fighting-help.html

I could list more if I could be bothered searching lol.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Love him. Thing is hes not about training hes about teaching you to think like your dog so you can control the dog better.
> 
> And you right Daddy RAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


it makes me laugh when daddy is walking behind ceaser he allways looks fed up


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Well, if you ask on a non dog specific forum, perhaps where the majority of dog owners are pet owners, you will get mixed replies. If you ask on a doggy forum, where all the members spend their life dedicated to their dogs, work with dogs, know an awful lot about dogs, etc, virtually everyone (and I mean 99%) will not like him or his methods.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

midori said:


> Well, if you ask on a non dog specific forum, perhaps where the majority of dog owners are pet owners, you will get mixed replies. If you ask on a doggy forum, where all the members spend their life dedicated to their dogs, work with dogs, know an awful lot about dogs, etc, virtually everyone (and I mean 99%) will not like him or his methods.


well he must be doing something right if he has 5 seasons of the show on tv 5 dvds his own line of dog stuff oh and top selling books not bad for a person who has 99% who dont like him wouldnt you say


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

midori said:


> Well, if you ask on a non dog specific forum, perhaps where the majority of dog owners are pet owners, you will get mixed replies. If you ask on a doggy forum, where all the members spend their life dedicated to their dogs, work with dogs, know an awful lot about dogs, etc, virtually everyone (and I mean 99%) will not like him or his methods.


This is because those type of dog owners are even more cliquey than the reptile comunity and are very blinkered, just like the reptile lovers on here


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

Haha definitly opened a can of worms!! These always go wrong...


I personally really love watching his programmes and think most of the stuff he does.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

cubeykc said:


> well he must be doing something right if he has 5 seasons of the show on tv 5 dvds his own line of dog stuff oh and top selling books not bad for a person who has 99% who dont like him wouldnt you say


 
Yep, he makes good television. All the TV companies are interested in. 

Some reading for anyone who is interested in looking at the 'other' side. 


Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan

The Anti-Cesar Millan / Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host?

'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan sued by TV producer - USATODAY.com

Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan

Tails of Marin: Pros and cons of the Cesar phenomenon - Marin Independent Journal

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?_r=1


Is this really how you want your dog to react to training, or 'rehabilitation'?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Deja vu!

I can't stand Milan! He is too harsh & uses cruel training aids (if you can call them that!) such as pinch collars! I saw a programme of his the other night where he used a pinch collar on a dog & it was yelping & yodelling when Milan yanked the lead! Hs techniques are based on the idea that "you have to be the leader of the pack" & therefore aren't very modern. 

I agree with LoveForLizards - Victoria Stilwell is so much better & kinder!


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## Love_snakes (Aug 12, 2007)

Hes OK, He tends to go over the top and put himself in danger alot. That woman that did it on channel 4 was much better.


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## stinglestick (Aug 28, 2008)

I think hes fab!!Thats lass from' its me or the dog 'was good too,but why did she have to dress like a Member of the gestapo??


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

midori said:


> Yep, he makes good television. All the TV companies are interested in.
> 
> Some reading for anyone who is interested in looking at the 'other' side.
> 
> ...


I so love the fact we agree on this! lol :2thumb:

There is no way on this earth I would use any of his methods on any animal. He is nothing but a bully.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

marthaMoo said:


> I so love the fact we agree on this! lol :2thumb:
> 
> There is *no way on this earth I would use any of his methods* on any animal. He is nothing but a bully.


Thats very very narrow minded of you. While you may not agree with *some* of his methods, there is no way you can argue that all of his methods are wrong!


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## groovy chick (Aug 1, 2006)

I think Cesar is great. Victoria whats her name is good if you have a little yappy yorkie but with problem dogs i dont think she has a clue. Did anyone see the episode where she was working with an abd?? The owner had to keep it on a lead. Not much of a life that. Daddy is deffo the dogs danglies


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## XstephanieXkX (Nov 14, 2008)

Absolutely love Cesar hes an absolute legend!
And who ever says he was disresepecting dogs i have to stringly disagree he just shows them whos boss firsat and as you will se once the dog has calmed down her then shows them affection! 
He adores animals na dyou can see this when he is at work! 

Cesars the man!!! xx


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> I so love the fact we agree on this! lol :2thumb:
> 
> There is no way on this earth I would use any of his methods on any animal. He is nothing but a bully.


have you ever seen his show the is great at what he does and he loves his work and the dogs he may be a little heavy handed at times but wouldnt you rather him be like that then see the dogs being put down?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Victoria Stillwell is good eye candy. I have yet to see her deal with outright aggressive, dangerous large dogs like Cesar does. No mention of her home life and how many dogs she has either. You can see for yourself his own pack of large dogs and when he walks into their run , do you see cowed and afraid dogs keeping away from him? I don't. I see confident dogs milling around him, tails waving lazily in a relaxed manner. His detractors seem to want to home in on anything they percieve as 'negative' or 'cruel' and refuse to acknowledge that the man has done a lot of good and puts himself out to help dogs which would be otherwise PTS. He puts his hand in his pocket for dogs in need. All I ever see of Ms Stillwell is a quick programme on the telly and that's it. Nothing about her credentials or what her experience is, nor how many dogs she keeps and how she keeps them.
I would love to see a programme where she and Cesar worked together on a really large aggressive dog.I suspect he'd just get to work, put himself in a hands on positions, while she worried about getting her shiny boots scuffed and squealing in fear while telling the owner to keep the nasty doggy on a lead at all times and get it neutered and offer treats every time it didn't attack someone in order to reinforce the positives, while ignoring it when it did attack someone, because you should ignore the bad and reward the good.
I suspect Cesar's detractors have never had any serious behavioural issues to resolve in a dog, probably never come across a large aggressive dog.
Life isn't all cute fluffy doggies being a little naughty sometimes by barking and annoying the neighbours, try a mastiff or rottie, dangerously out of control and wanting to kill anything which crosses it's path. If I had a dog like that, I wouldn't ask for Ms Stillwell's help, I'd be yelling for Cesar. Or Mick Martin.
I'm fed up with the comments about him being a bully or "ooooh he is a cwuel nasty man cos he is bossy and sometimes poor wittle doggy woggies yelp because he makes them behave".:bash:

I would love to see the people who talk about him being mean and nasty, get a pack of 10 or more dogs and keep them all together. Within 6 months they'd be in utter chaos and the dogs would be miserable because they think that the heirachy theory is out of date and they want everyone to be nice and love each other.
All I hear is the handful of programmes where he uses a pinch collar (which the owners used in any case) and no mention of the majority of programmes where nothing bad happens. If Cesar Milan thinks the pinch collar is the only training aid, why did he design the Illusion collar.
Needless to say, I bet his detractors don't respond to anything I say about the rest of the things he does which don't involve a dog yelping.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

ryanr1987 said:


> I wouldn't say he treats them with no respect hes firm! which you need to be with a dog. i have seen too many people who are soft and the dogs walks all over them


 and then when it is out of control, they get rid of it and buy themselves a new better puppy, treat it the same with the same results.
I get fed up taking calls from folks who want me to take the new dog they got because their current dog "won't accept him and is jealous". Well excuse me?!?!?! Who owns the house? The dog, or you? I love my dogs, but it's my house and I dictate who or what comes to live here. The dogs have no say and make no decisions here. Does that make me cruel? Do my dogs look bullied, cowed and afraid? I don't think so.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Victoria Stillwell is good eye candy. I have yet to see her deal with outright aggressive, dangerous large dogs like Cesar does. No mention of her home life and how many dogs she has either. You can see for yourself his own pack of large dogs and when he walks into their run , do you see cowed and afraid dogs keeping away from him? I don't. I see confident dogs milling around him, tails waving lazily in a relaxed manner. His detractors seem to want to home in on anything they percieve as 'negative' or 'cruel' and refuse to acknowledge that the man has done a lot of good and puts himself out to help dogs which would be otherwise PTS. He puts his hand in his pocket for dogs in need. All I ever see of Ms Stillwell is a quick programme on the telly and that's it. Nothing about her credentials or what her experience is, nor how many dogs she keeps and how she keeps them.
> I would love to see a programme where she and Cesar worked together on a really large aggressive dog.I suspect he'd just get to work, put himself in a hands on positions, while she worried about getting her shiny boots scuffed and squealing in fear while telling the owner to keep the nasty doggy on a lead at all times and get it neutered and offer treats every time it didn't attack someone in order to reinforce the positives, while ignoring it when it did attack someone, because you should ignore the bad and reward the good.
> I suspect Cesar's detractors have never had any serious behavioural issues to resolve in a dog, probably never come across a large aggressive dog.
> Life isn't all cute fluffy doggies being a little naughty sometimes by barking and annoying the neighbours, try a mastiff or rottie, dangerously out of control and wanting to kill anything which crosses it's path. If I had a dog like that, I wouldn't ask for Ms Stillwell's help, I'd be yelling for Cesar. Or Mick Martin.
> ...



Brilliant post! :2thumb: : victory:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

cubeykc said:


> have you ever seen his show the is great at what he does and he loves his work and the dogs he may be a little heavy handed at times but wouldnt you rather him be like that then see the dogs being put down?


 
Have you read the links? 'Heavy handed' is an understatement, and the whole point is, there are better ways of rehabilitating these dogs, but it would take longer and wouldn't look so good on television. 

From this link: 'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan sued by TV producer - USATODAY.com

"In a lawsuit filed Thursday in Superior Court, _8 Simple Rules_ producer Flody Suarez says he took 5-year-old Gator to the Dog Psychology Center on Feb. 27 to deal with fears of other dogs and strangers. 
Hours after dropping the dog off at the facility, Suarez claimed a worker called to inform him the animal had been rushed to a veterinarian. He later found the dog "*bleeding from his mouth and nose, in an oxygen tent gasping for breath and with severe bruising to his back inner thighs*," the lawsuit claims. "

For anyone who doesn't want to click on the link... 



*From Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist 
Animal Behavior Clinic 
Purdue University
* 
I reviewed the four preview-videotapes kindly submitted to me by National Geographic. I very much appreciate having gotten the opportunity to see these tapes before the program goes on the air. I will be happy to review any programs that deal with domestic animal behavior and training. I believe this is a responsibility of our profession.

I have been involved in continuing education for dog trainers for over 10 years, first through the How Dogs Learn" program at the University of Guelph (Ontario Veterinary College) and then through the DOGS! Course at Purdue University. I therefore know very well where dog training stands today, and I must tell you that *Millan's techniques are outdated and unacceptable not only to the veterinary community, but also to dog trainers. The first question regarding the above mentioned tapes I have is this: The show repeatedly cautions the viewers not to attempt these techniques at home. What then is the purpose of this show? I think we have to be realistic: people will try these techniques at home, much to the detriment of their pets.
*
Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: Flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.

Positive punishment refers to applying an aversive stimulus or correction as a consequence of a behavior. There are many concerns about punishment aside from its unpleasantness. Punishment is entirely inappropriate for most types of aggression and for any behavior that involves anxiety. Punishment can suppress most behavior but does not resolve the underlying problem, i.e., the fear or anxiety. Even in cases where correctly applied punishment might be considered appropriate, many conditions have to be met that most dog owners can't meet: The punishment has to be applied every time the behavior is displayed, within ½ second of the behavior, and at the correct intensity.

*Most of the theoretical explanations that Millan gives regarding causes of the behavior problems are wrong. Not one of these dogs had any issue with dominance. Not one of these dogs wanted to control their owners. What he was right about was that calmness and consistency are extremely important, but they don't make the presented methods appropriate or justifiable.
* 
*The last episode (compulsive disorder) is particularly unsettling because compulsive disorder is related to an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels or receptors, and is therefore unequivocally a medical condition. Would it be appropriate to treat obsessive compulsive disorder in people with punishment?* Or have a layperson go around treating such patients?

My colleagues and I and innumerable leaders in the dog training community have worked now for decades to eliminate such cruel, ineffective (in terms of true cure) and inappropriate techniques.

From here: 

Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University
​


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Victoria Stillwell is good eye candy. I have yet to see her deal with outright aggressive, dangerous large dogs like Cesar does. No mention of her home life and how many dogs she has either. You can see for yourself his own pack of large dogs and when he walks into their run , do you see cowed and afraid dogs keeping away from him? I don't. I see confident dogs milling around him, tails waving lazily in a relaxed manner. His detractors seem to want to home in on anything they percieve as 'negative' or 'cruel' and refuse to acknowledge that the man has done a lot of good and puts himself out to help dogs which would be otherwise PTS. He puts his hand in his pocket for dogs in need. All I ever see of Ms Stillwell is a quick programme on the telly and that's it. Nothing about her credentials or what her experience is, nor how many dogs she keeps and how she keeps them.
> I would love to see a programme where she and Cesar worked together on a really large aggressive dog.I suspect he'd just get to work, put himself in a hands on positions, while she worried about getting her shiny boots scuffed and squealing in fear while telling the owner to keep the nasty doggy on a lead at all times and get it neutered and offer treats every time it didn't attack someone in order to reinforce the positives, while ignoring it when it did attack someone, because you should ignore the bad and reward the good.
> I suspect Cesar's detractors have never had any serious behavioural issues to resolve in a dog, probably never come across a large aggressive dog.
> Life isn't all cute fluffy doggies being a little naughty sometimes by barking and annoying the neighbours, try a mastiff or rottie, dangerously out of control and wanting to kill anything which crosses it's path. If I had a dog like that, I wouldn't ask for Ms Stillwell's help, I'd be yelling for Cesar. Or Mick Martin.
> ...


great post


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

accidents happen im sure it wasnt dont on on purpus


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## joe190 (Jun 28, 2008)

love this bloke
good with dogs


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

cubeykc said:


> accidents happen im sure it wasnt dont on on purpus


 
Well, if he wasn't using thos emthods, it wouldnt' happen, but obviously it's Ok to seriously injure a dog if it's an accident... 

You haven't read the links, have you?! :lol2:


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

MIDORI: 

can i ask you a question and be honest say you had a dog and all it did was snap at people you you rather see it being put down then try things with ceaser?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

groovy chick said:


> I think Cesar is great. Victoria whats her name is good if you have a little yappy yorkie but with problem dogs i dont think she has a clue.


This is the thing. His methods might be fine as a last resort for *some* problem dogs, but as has been shown on this forum alone - how many people watch his show and apply them to their own pets?

I cant stand his training methods, but if it was a last resort (pts thing), I would consider them - along with other methods I dont agree with.

But too many people watch his show and think that's how you train a regular dog - and it's not. No dog needs hanging on it's lead, or kicking, or poking to perform for their owner - mutual respect and positive methods work fine for most dogs.

It's not him I cant stand, it's those of his forum followers who believe that he can do no wrong, and that it's normal training - it's not - it's harsh, painful and a last resort for severely problem dogs.

Edited to add - if I had a problem dog that was biting (not snapping) I'd work out why first, rather than hang it or roll it.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

midori said:


> Have you read the links? 'Heavy handed' is an understatement, and the whole point is, there are better ways of rehabilitating these dogs, but it would take longer and wouldn't look so good on television.



You are taking a very minute amount of his work and exploiting him as being terrible based on a tiny percentage of events.

I see the majority of the 'rehabilitation' that Caeser does is actually on the owners, not the dogs themselves!


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

midori said:


> Well, if he wasn't using thos emthods, it wouldnt' happen, but obviously it's Ok to seriously injure a dog if it's an accident...
> 
> You haven't read the links, have you?! :lol2:


and yes i have read the links and are people not aloud there own opinions ? like iv said before he must be doing something right unlike some :lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

midori said:


> Well, if he wasn't using thos emthods, it wouldnt' happen, but obviously it's Ok to seriously injure a dog if it's an accident...
> 
> You haven't read the links, have you?! :lol2:


Just what I was thinking?



cubeykc said:


> MIDORI:
> 
> can i ask you a question and be honest say you had a dog and all it did was snap at people you you rather see it being put down then try things with ceaser?


Oh, right, so now, Cesar's methods are the ONLY way to "solve" a problem dog?

His show's are also pointless to dogs...


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Just what I was thinking?
> 
> 
> Oh, right, so now, Cesar's methods are the ONLY way to "solve" a problem dog?


shouldnt you be at school and im on about if that was there last choice and they had tryed every thing else 

he is good at what he does look at what he does with pit bulls amazing


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

cubeykc said:


> MIDORI:
> 
> can i ask you a question and be honest say you had a dog and all it did was snap at people you you rather see it being put down then try things with ceaser?


 
I have dealt with dogs that snap at people, or attack people or other dogs, including big dogs, with more positiive methods that are far less likely to have the 'side effects' CM's methods would. It isn't a case of go to CM or have the dog put down. There are plenty of other trainers/behaviourists who can cure the same problems without resulting to methods which are pretty hard mentally if not physically on the dog, and that aren't so dangerous for the people involved. 

I'm not saying he doesn't have some good ideas, or that nothing he says makes sense. (dogs do need exercise, and they do need to be treated like dogs and not humans) What I am saying is his methods at the very least border on being cruel, are potentially dangerous for the humans who attempt them at home (which, lets face it, no matter what the TV screen says about not doing so, they will...) and potentially damaging to the dog.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> shouldnt you be at school and im on about if that was there last choice and they had tryed every thing else
> 
> he is good at what he does look at what he does with pit bulls amazing


Why do people bring age into this
1. No I shouldn't.
2. What does it have to do with you?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> No dog needs hanging on it's lead, or kicking, or poking to perform for their owner - mutual respect and positive methods work fine for most dogs.


 Hanging from the lead? Or kicking? I've never seen him do this. On the subject of 'hanging' is it bad to hang a dog as in lift it off the ground with it's feet not touching until it is strangling (which is what I take to mean hanging, as the word itself means suspended, i.e. not touching the ground) but fine to allow the dog to strangle itself while it's feet are on the ground by using a choke chain?Or by jerking that chain so that it causes damage to the throat.
Does a nudge with a foot equal a kick? If one of my dogs walks in front of me while I'm carrying something large or heavy, and I nudge it with my foot to make it move aside before I trip over it or drop the thing I'm carrying on top of the dog, have I just kicked my dog?





> Edited to add - if I had a problem dog that was biting (not snapping) I'd work out why first, rather than hang it or roll it.


 I would enjoy watching you pondering why your dog was doing it, while the thing was tearing someone elses dog to bits or tearing chunks out of a human. I can just imagine the scene.
Cue large rottie cross with someone's face in it's mouth. Human is screaming, blood everywhere and you stand there gazing into the distance after muttering "oh do stop screaming for a minute...I'm thinking, and wondering why he is doing that", before shaking a rattle can at the dog, or squirting with water (or is that cruel too if it makes the dog yelp) or trying to tempt it into good behaviour by offering it a treat.
I'd pay good money to watch a video if someone filmed it.:lol2:


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

midori said:


> I have dealt with dogs that snap at people, or attack people or other dogs, including big dogs, with more positiive methods that are far less likely to have the 'side effects' CM's methods would. It isn't a case of go to CM or have the dog put down. There are plenty of other trainers/behaviourists who can cure the same problems without resulting to methods which are pretty hard mentally if not physically on the dog, and that aren't so dangerous for the people involved.
> 
> I'm not saying he doesn't have some good ideas, or that nothing he says makes sense. (dogs do need exercise, and they do need to be treated like dogs and not humans) What I am saying is his methods at the very least *border on being cruel*, are potentially dangerous for the humans who attempt them at home (which, lets face it, no matter what the TV screen says about not doing so, they will...) and potentially damaging to the dog.


so you wouldnt use CM then and like i i dont think there is anything wrong with his methods i would rather him be firm with the dog then see it get put down at the end of the days he saves dogs lives


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Why do people bring age into this
> 1. No I shouldn't. half turm?
> 2. What does it have to do with you?


 just wondering


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> just wondering


Home-ed.
I have done all my work for this morning already. : victory:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> Oh, right, so now, Cesar's methods are the ONLY way to "solve" a problem dog?
> 
> His show's are also pointless to dogs...



Well apparently your 'rewarding' methods are the ONLY way to sort a dog.....:whistling2:


And you're right, it is a pointless show to dogs, they dont watch telly! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Thats very very narrow minded of you. While you may not agree with *some* of his methods, there is no way you can argue that all of his methods are wrong!


Oh I can argue that, and I just did.. :lol2:

And since I have worked in rescue for a number of years picking up the pieces of people using his and other peoples methods on there dogs I think I have every right to be what ever minded I want to be.

The ONLY exceptable way of training a dog is to use positive non abusive methods.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> Home-ed.
> I have done all my work for this morning already. : victory:


Home ed..........explains a lot..... :whistling2:


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Home-ed.
> I have done all my work for this morning already. : victory:


well thats great


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Well apparently your 'rewarding' methods are the ONLY way to sort a dog.....:whistling2:
> 
> 
> And you're right, it is a pointless show to dogs, they dont watch telly! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


MY rewarding methods? who said I am all pampering to dogs with training? I for one am not, I show a dog who's boss and whilst I agree with Cesar alot of the time, I do believe some of his methods are a little harsh. I'm not exactly against Cesar, and I respect him but some of his methods are a little worrying at times.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> MY rewarding methods? who said I am all pampering to dogs with training? I for one am not, I show a dog who's boss and whilst I agree with Cesar alot of the time, I do believe some of his methods are a little harsh. I'm not exactly against Cesar, and I respect him but *some of his methods are a little worrying at times.*


 
like......????


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Home ed..........explains a lot..... :whistling2:


I expected something like that. 
Explains what, exactly? 
Is ignorance really bliss? (you seem to be the right person to ask?) :whistling2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

cubeykc said:


> like......????


I probably said that wrong, its not so much his methods, its the outcome. I for one do not want my dog to be cowering (sp?) away from me after a 'training session'. I have seen alot of dogs cowering from him and I don't like flooding (which I have seen him use on multiple programmes).


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> MY rewarding methods? who said I am all pampering to dogs with training? I for one am not, I show a dog who's boss and whilst I agree with Cesar alot of the time, I do believe some of his methods are a little harsh. I'm not exactly against Cesar, and I respect him but some of his methods are a little worrying at times.



Sorry, as you were jumping on the bandwagon with the previous posters against caeser I thought you were 'one of them'.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> I expected something like that.
> Explains what, exactly?
> Is ignorance really bliss? (you seem to be the right person to ask?) :whistling2:



As I said above, I lumped you in with the rest of the anti-caeser crowd, which I shouldnt have done.


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## XstephanieXkX (Nov 14, 2008)

I can't believe the amount of people that have a problem with Cesar! :O
I know alot of u are syaing u see the dog cowering away i see a dog moving out of his space! not cowering!
And as soon as the dog realises that he has been doing wrong he always gives them affection!YOu just have to look at his own pack to see how happy they all are xxx


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> I probably said that wrong, its not so much his methods, its the outcome. I for one do not want my dog to be cowering (sp?) away from me after a 'training session'. I have seen alot of dogs cowering from him and I don't like flooding (which I have seen him use on multiple programmes).


I've watched a hell of a lot of Dog Whisperer and I have seen very little of either of these scenarios :hmm:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Home ed..........explains a lot..... :whistling2:


 when I see telly programmes about home ed kids, why are they always protrayed as social inadequates who can't cope with main stream schools, or kids of totally whacky hippy type parents, or from parents who cannot bear to be parted from their precious offspring for a second? Surely some normal people get home ed'd?

Gawd i'd have hated to be educated at home.I loved my boarding school.


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## cubeykc (Aug 8, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> I probably said that wrong, its not so much his methods, its the outcome. I for one do not want my dog to be cowering (sp?) away from me after a 'training session'. I have seen alot of dogs cowering from him and I don't like flooding (which I have seen him use on multiple programmes).


in a normal pack of dogs there is always a pack leader and he comes in becomes the pack and the dogs dont like it thats why they cower


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> when I see telly programmes about home ed kids, why are they always protrayed as social inadequates who can't cope with main stream schools, or kids of totally whacky hippy type parents, or from parents who cannot bear to be parted from their precious offspring for a second? Surely some normal people get home ed'd?
> 
> Gawd i'd have hated to be educated at home.I loved my boarding school.


Well thats the problem isn't it? How can home ed be classed as normal? The social interaction is severely lacking.

The tellys do portray it badly, but I know a handful of home educated people and I hate to say it but you can tell that something is different.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

CM is a dog Behaviourist NOT a dog Trainer there is a difference
He deals with dogs that have severe problems not average dogs.
His methods do work most of the time. Can you name anyone else that has a mixture of small dogs and Pitbulls living in a large pack situation successfully? I dont agree with all his methods but then I dont agree with all the things dog trainers do either. He gets good results and it certainly saves a lot of lives as a lot of these dogs would be PTS without his help
I dont know why some people seem so threatened by him


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> MY rewarding methods? who said I am all pampering to dogs with training? I for one am not, I show a dog who's boss and whilst I agree with Cesar alot of the time, I do believe some of his methods are a little harsh. I'm not exactly against Cesar, and I respect him but some of his methods are a little worrying at times.


 Then I apologise. I took your posts as to mean that you were opposed to him per se.
But with all due respect, even the programmes which might appear harsh , don't show us the full picture. We don't know the background of the dog, what preparation has gone on, the full assessment of it etc. Just as I wouldn't tell someone that their dog would respond to this or that unless I had personally met the dog and them and been able to assess it for myself. I imagine that the shows are condenced and a lot more info is gained before hand to make him decide what method to use for that particular case. Not every training method will work for every dog after all and we are lucky to be able to cherry pick from various methods and apply it to each case individually. For instance, now way would I even raise my voice to my lurcher if he did something I didn't want him to do (like pissing in my welly boot as he did once). He'd go to pieces. 
But if for instance my Ursa developed severe aggression and was in the process or going to attack another animal or a human, would I grab him and bodily throw him down? Possibly. But I can't say for sure as it has never happened and I doubt it would as he knows my house rules and is a nice natured chap.
There is no one single way for all dogs and all behaviours.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> when I see telly programmes about home ed kids, why are they always protrayed as social inadequates who can't cope with main stream schools, or kids of totally whacky hippy type parents, or from parents who cannot bear to be parted from their precious offspring for a second? Surely some normal people get home ed'd?
> 
> Gawd i'd have hated to be educated at home.I loved my boarding school.


I love to be home educated. I am pleased to say I can do work/tests that are made for kids of a key stage 1/2/3 times higher then what is made for my key stage simply because I dont feel rushed as in a class room, I am allowed to work things out for myself and I am allowed to 'exercise' my brain more allowing me to do more and learn more. 



Crownan said:


> Well thats the problem isn't it? How can home ed be classed as normal? The social interaction is severely lacking.


I don't think our social interaction is lacking at all. I get about as much social interaction as I would in a school. I am not really a social person anyway (as in, I wouldn't go out of my way to go meet new people) but I do get plenty of social interaction. 



fenwoman said:


> Then I apologise. I took your posts as to mean that you were opposed to him per se.
> But with all due respect, even the programmes which might appear harsh , don't show us the full picture. We don't know the background of the dog, what preparation has gone on, the full assessment of it etc. Just as I wouldn't tell someone that their dog would respond to this or that unless I had personally met the dog and them and been able to assess it for myself. I imagine that the shows are condenced and a lot more info is gained before hand to make him decide what method to use for that particular case. Not every training method will work for every dog after all and we are lucky to be able to cherry pick from various methods and apply it to each case individually. For instance, now way would I even raise my voice to my lurcher if he did something I didn't want him to do (like pissing in my welly boot as he did once). He'd go to pieces.
> But if for instance my Ursa developed severe aggression and was in the process or going to attack another animal or a human, would I grab him and bodily throw him down? Possibly. But I can't say for sure as it has never happened and I doubt it would as he knows my house rules and is a nice natured chap.
> There is no one single way for all dogs and all behaviours.


:notworthy: 
I understand completely that there is different ways for all dogs, but I still see some of his methods as unnecessary and stressful. And I also understand that alot is cut out, it could be bad, it could be good. Unless you meet somebody in person and watch his every move during training the dogs, there is no way anybody can judge his whole training thing.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

As much i appreciate the work victoria stilwell does, have you seen how long her methods take to work. Because you have to be consistant and she doesn't teach people why they should be doing it that way or mention that they need to be maintaining that every day. Her programme is so heavily edited.

Ceasars methos work so quickly because hes on the dogs level and he thinks the way the dog thinks so the dog takes it in much quicker.


I do like mik martin as well cor hes a bit sexy and he gets me all hot under the collar even if he is old enough to be my daddy.

Marina


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> As much i appreciate the work victoria stilwell does, have you seen how long her methods take to work. Because you have to be consistant and she doesn't teach people why they should be doing it that way or mention that they need to be maintaining that every day. Her programme is so heavily edited.
> 
> Ceasars methos work so quickly because hes on the dogs level and he thinks the way the dog thinks so the dog takes it in much quicker.


Have you seen his work personally? Have you been with him training dogs and gone through the whole procedure?
Any persons programme can be editted to the stars above and you really wouldn't think it.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> CM is a dog Behaviourist NOT a dog Trainer there is a difference
> He deals with dogs that have severe problems not average dogs.
> His methods do work most of the time. Can you name anyone else that has a mixture of small dogs and Pitbulls living in a large pack situation successfully? I dont agree with all his methods but then I dont agree with all the things dog trainers do either. He gets good results and it certainly saves a lot of lives as a lot of these dogs would be PTS without his help
> I dont know why some people seem so threatened by him


 
I have to agree i totally agree with you on that one shell 

though saying that wouldnt this place be boring if people dint have something like mr milan to argue about :lol2:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Victoria Stillwell is good eye candy. I have yet to see her deal with outright aggressive, dangerous large dogs like Cesar does. No mention of her home life and how many dogs she has either. You can see for yourself his own pack of large dogs and when he walks into their run , do you see cowed and afraid dogs keeping away from him? I don't. I see confident dogs milling around him, tails waving lazily in a relaxed manner. His detractors seem to want to home in on anything they percieve as 'negative' or 'cruel' and refuse to acknowledge that the man has done a lot of good and puts himself out to help dogs which would be otherwise PTS. He puts his hand in his pocket for dogs in need. All I ever see of Ms Stillwell is a quick programme on the telly and that's it. Nothing about her credentials or what her experience is, nor how many dogs she keeps and how she keeps them.
> I would love to see a programme where she and Cesar worked together on a really large aggressive dog.I suspect he'd just get to work, put himself in a hands on positions, while she worried about getting her shiny boots scuffed and squealing in fear while telling the owner to keep the nasty doggy on a lead at all times and get it neutered and offer treats every time it didn't attack someone in order to reinforce the positives, while ignoring it when it did attack someone, because you should ignore the bad and reward the good.
> I suspect Cesar's detractors have never had any serious behavioural issues to resolve in a dog, probably never come across a large aggressive dog.
> Life isn't all cute fluffy doggies being a little naughty sometimes by barking and annoying the neighbours, try a mastiff or rottie, dangerously out of control and wanting to kill anything which crosses it's path. If I had a dog like that, I wouldn't ask for Ms Stillwell's help, I'd be yelling for Cesar. Or Mick Martin.
> ...


:notworthy::notworthy: I couldnt have put it better myself


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> when I see telly programmes about home ed kids, why are they always protrayed as social inadequates who can't cope with main stream schools, or kids of totally whacky hippy type parents, or from parents who cannot bear to be parted from their precious offspring for a second? Surely some normal people get home ed'd?
> 
> Gawd i'd have hated to be educated at home.I loved my boarding school.


I was home schooled for a couple of years, best ones i had and I must say I learnt extreme amounts of stuff I needed for life, stuff i wanted to learn.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> *CM is a dog Behaviourist NOT a dog Trainer there is a difference*
> He deals with dogs that have severe problems not average dogs.
> His methods do work most of the time. Can you name anyone else that has a mixture of small dogs and Pitbulls living in a large pack situation successfully? I dont agree with all his methods but then I dont agree with all the things dog trainers do either. He gets good results and it certainly saves a lot of lives as a lot of these dogs would be PTS without his help
> I dont know why some people seem so threatened by him


 
Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers

*"BUT HE DOESN'T TRAIN DOGS, HE REHABILITATES THEM *
While training for obedience and changing problem behaviors are not the same thing, they are not entirely separate, either. Successfully training a dog requires an understanding of how dogs learn and what motivates them to repeat behaviors. That understanding is also critical in being able to change behavior. 
Dogs that don't have even a basic foundation of obedience are harder to control and less responsive to their owners, which can make behavior modification (or rehabilitation) much more difficult. One of the things I frequently observe about the show is that, while the dogs may not be reacting to whatever triggers the behavior (other dogs, people, skateboards, etc.), they are also not looking at or responding to the owner. Instead, the presence of a tight leash and frequency of jerks on the leash suggest that the dog would not be quite as "calm-submissive" if the owner were to drop the leash. 
It is hard to imagine how one can rehabilitate a dog without a basic knowledge of how dogs learn or why they would want to skip this important step that encourages cooperation and puts the owner in a "leadership" position. "

Plenty of well known and highly successful behaviourists dislike his methods and would use different ones on the same dogs.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

I have seen allot of people comment saying hes too harsh on the dog, until you own a very large aggressive potential dangerous dog then you wouldn't understand. he is very firm with the dog and that is what you need. the only largish breed dog i have seen victoria deal with was a English bull terrier i think, and that does not compare to the dogs ceaser has dealt with. the people that think ceaser is too harsh are the people that let there dogs walk all over them. i have had 3 dogs that are very dominant and we are very firm. you can't just correct a aggressive dog that wants to take someones arm off by being soft and not being a firm owner. thats why there are so many dogs that go to ceaser because people are too soft and don't have a clue. If you really want to see what it's like to have a dog walk all over you i'll lend you my gsd for a day she will pick up on any sort of weakness lol overall i think hes great and he knows what hes doing and he knows that if hes not firm hes not gonig to succeed and i also liek the way he tells the owner like it is.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

farmercoope said:


> I was home schooled for a couple of years, best ones i had and I must say I learnt extreme amounts of stuff I needed for life, stuff i wanted to learn.


 but you couldn't spell 'Japanese' until yer auntie Pam told you how to :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

ryanr1987 said:


> I have seen allot of people comment saying hes too harsh on the dog, until you own a very large aggressive potential dangerous dog then you wouldn't understand. he is very firm with the dog and that is what you need. the only largish breed dog i have seen victoria deal with was a English bull terrier i think, and that does not compare to the dogs ceaser has dealt with. the people that think ceaser is too harsh are the people that let there dogs walk all over them. i have had 3 dogs that are very dominant and we are very firm. you can't just correct a aggressive dog that wants to take someones arm off by being soft and not being a firm owner. thats why there are so many dogs that go to ceaser because people are too soft and don't have a clue. If you really want to see what it's like to have a dog walk all over you i'll lend you my gsd for a day she will pick up on any sort of weakness lol overall i think hes great and he knows what hes doing and he knows that if hes not firm hes not gonig to succeed and i also liek the way he tells the owner like it is.


 I agree. Point to illustrate. I went to collect a load of straw late last year from a farmer with one GSD, One rottie and a rottie X GSD adult pup. The GSD bitch picked up a huge rock which had oil on it and was chewing it. Farmer attempted to take the rock off her and she growled at him and he backed off and started trying to poke it away with a stick, she growled again.
I went over, stood near her, and told her to "leave it" . Moved to the rock, picked it up and gave it to the farmer. She let me take it, no growls and spent the next half hour practically glued to my leg, smiling at me and wagging her tail. She then tried to get into my car when I wanted to go.
Np pinch collar, no violence, kicking or shouting. Just body language and calmness.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> As much i appreciate the work victoria stilwell does, have you seen how long her methods take to work. Because you have to be consistant and she doesn't teach people why they should be doing it that way or mention that they need to be maintaining that every day. Her programme is so heavily edited.
> 
> Ceasars methos work so quickly because hes on the dogs level and he thinks the way the dog thinks so the dog takes it in much quicker.
> 
> ...


 Mick is indeed sex on legs. Phwoaaar...as they say.
As you say, Cesar explains the idea behind what he is doing, and why he is doing it. He educates owners to become more in tune with their dogs and supply what dogs need. Ms Stillwell seems to only deal with the issue in hand, not explain much about why it works or how the dog thinks. If she looked like Norah Batty, I wonder if her show would be quite so popular?
Wrinkled knitted stockings instead of black boots?
Mick once again is no nonsense, doesn't take any [email protected] off powerful dogs and scorns the weak owners who won't get to grips and realise that a bolshy entire spoiled Rottie, is nothing like a sweet pampered cavalier king charles and needs to be handled differently.
Nothing to do with being cruel, or a bully or anything else, just common sense and a realisation that some breeds need firmer handling.
Blimey, who'da thunk it. I'm agreeing with you.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Hanging from the lead? Or kicking? I've never seen him do this.


Check out his Youtube videos, I saw him lift a dog off the floor by it's lead to get it onto a chair. He then poked and prodded it. I've seen a show where he "touched" a dog with his foot, to anyone else this is a kick.



> On the subject of 'hanging' is it bad to hang a dog as in lift it off the ground with it's feet not touching until it is strangling (which is what I take to mean hanging, as the word itself means suspended, i.e. not touching the ground) but fine to allow the dog to strangle itself while it's feet are on the ground by using a choke chain?Or by jerking that chain so that it causes damage to the throat.


Where did I say that?



> Does a nudge with a foot equal a kick?


The "nudges" I saw on his show, yes.





> I would enjoy watching you pondering why your dog was doing it, while the thing was tearing someone elses dog to bits or tearing chunks out of a human. I can just imagine the scene.
> Cue large rottie cross with someone's face in it's mouth. Human is screaming, blood everywhere and you stand there gazing into the distance after muttering "oh do stop screaming for a minute...I'm thinking, and wondering why he is doing that", before shaking a rattle can at the dog, or squirting with water (or is that cruel too if it makes the dog yelp) or trying to tempt it into good behaviour by offering it a treat.
> I'd pay good money to watch a video if someone filmed it.:lol2:


Oh do try to be sensible. What I meant was - if a dog is nervous aggressive or dominance aggressive, or set off by something else - they all need different approaches.

I'd love to see you alpha roll that rottie you were talking about there, could be a great one for You've Been Framed (or You've Been Mauled perhaps)...

As I've said a gazillion times on here (not this thread but others) - I've got nothing against his methods as a last resort, but it's his followers that are closed minded. They'd rather "nudge" and "helicopter" first, then wonder why their dog is mucked up in the head!

I'm still trying to find those Youtube links, anyone else got them? They were saved on my old pooter. It was one where he was in a barn with a couple and their brown dog....


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Okies am i readin this right here...............cos if i am then Oh dear 

so its been said that to move a dog with your foot even if its with no force is still classed as kicking ???? am i getting that right ?


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I'm still trying to find those Youtube links, anyone else got them? They were saved on my old pooter. It was one where he was in a barn with a couple and their brown dog....


I looked, and found this instead, which is much funnier 
YouTube - Cesar Millan, Marriage Counselor - Ep.1 (Rage)
Tehehehee


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> Okies am i readin this right here...............cos if i am then Oh dear
> 
> so its been said that to move a dog with your foot even if its with no force is still classed as kicking ???? am i getting that right ?


Of course, same as giving a child a clip round the ear hole is now classed as beating :roll:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Of course, same as giving a child a clip round the ear hole is now classed as beating :roll:


 
darn me i cant sit an rock in my corner no more in fear of touching one of the dogs with my feet :lol2:

I have to use my legs an feet an knees to manover my lot about at times not with force though just a gentle guide 

as bear in mind i have a fair few dogs an the 5 skunks to wade through :lol2::lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Emmaj said:


> Okies am i readin this right here...............cos if i am then Oh dear
> 
> so its been said that to move a dog with your foot even if its with no force is still classed as kicking ???? am i getting that right ?


No you're not. The shows I've seen, he has kicked the dog. Not moved it out of the way, nothing gentle about it. It was a kick to remind them who was in charge.

Look up helicoptering - from web searches I've just done, it seems that someone was prosecuted for doing this in the UK.

As for not knowing anything about large dogs, some of us have large dogs (in my case a rescue dane) without needing to assert dominance or pretend to be alpha (rubbish!), or walk through doors first, or nudge, hurt, push or harm our dogs in any way.

I also am very close to a thoroughly well trained bullmastiff who was trained with positive methods.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> No you're not. The shows I've seen, he has kicked the dog. Not moved it out of the way, nothing gentle about it. It was a kick to remind them who was in charge.


A kick with no real force behind it. It wouldnt actually hurt the dog.

Using your definition of kick, then I kick my cat and my iguana to move them out the way quite often...........:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> No you're not. The shows I've seen, he has kicked the dog. Not moved it out of the way, nothing gentle about it. It was a kick to remind them who was in charge.
> 
> Look up helicoptering - from web searches I've just done, it seems that someone was prosecuted for doing this in the UK.
> 
> ...


 
TBH hun im not a big fan of his either but no point arguing on these threads as its the same argument all the time i just sit back an watch now usually :lol2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Crownan said:


> A kick with no real force behind it. It wouldnt actually hurt the dog.
> 
> Using your definition of kick, then I kick my cat and my iguana to move them out the way quite often...........:Na_Na_Na_Na:


LOL i often have skunks scooting across the room cos they have got in the way of my path but its not intentional accidental :lol2::lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Crownan said:


> Of course, same as giving a child a clip round the ear hole is now classed as beating :roll:


 home schooled eh?
From the Oxford English dictionary:
*kick*


• *verb* *1* strike or propel forcibly with the foot. *2* strike out with the foot or feet.

*nudge*


• *verb* *1* prod with one’s elbow to attract attention. *2* touch or push lightly. *3* give gentle encouragement to.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Gawd, we all have to nudge animals out of the way sometimes - anyone been behind a 80kg great dane who wants his dinner but wont walk through the door to get it? LOL

But I'd not call Cesar's methods humane because he goes one step further. His kick is a kick, I saw him kicking a boxer once, and it didnt even do anything wrong - he was just kicking it to show the owners how to do it. Just cos you kick backwards doesn't mean it's not a kick lol.

As for "he's a behaviourist" - he can call himself what he wants, but he's not trained to do anything. He's actually a dog groomer.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Aww Fenny, come on now - do you have to resort to attacking someone's education to make a point?​


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Gawd, we all have to nudge animals out of the way sometimes - anyone been behind a 80kg great dane who wants his dinner but wont walk through the door to get it? LOL
> 
> But I'd not call Cesar's methods humane because he goes one step further. His kick is a kick, I saw him kicking a boxer once, and it didnt even do anything wrong - he was just kicking it to show the owners how to do it. Just cos you kick backwards doesn't mean it's not a kick lol.
> 
> As for "he's a behaviourist" - he can call himself what he wants, but he's not trained to do anything. He's actually a dog groomer.


hee hee nopes not had the pleasure of that with the dane though i have huskamute an sammy that can be as stubborn as hell at times when i wants to move them sooooooo yeah i can definately sympathise with you on that :lol2::lol2:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> As for "he's a behaviourist" - he can call himself what he wants, but he's not trained to do anything. He's actually a dog groomer.


Oh, that old chestnut.

A piece of paper and someone showing you how to do something _their_ way ('training') does not constitute anything.

I know plenty of trained professionals in many fields and half of them dont know thier arse from their elbow


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> home schooled eh?
> From the Oxford English dictionary:
> *kick*
> 
> ...



Official definitions are all very well, but who is to decide where the line between a 'gentle kick' and a 'hard kick'? 

I can nudge something with my foot.............is that a nudge or a kick?  lol


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Crownan said:


> Of course, same as giving a child a clip round the ear hole is now classed as beating :roll:


 
and that sums it up for me really. In a world that some consider has gone PC mad, we mustn't use certain words or phrases, and we mustn't hit our kids. Now we are being told (by some) that we mustn't hit our dogs either... so I guess Cesar Millan, with what many percieve as a no nonsense approach is a breath of fresh air to some. 

I personally have never had any reason to hit my kids (they are all impeccably behaved, kind, considerate children with immaculate manners, people frequently comment on this) and I have never had any reason to hit my dogs, or even move them with my foot. If I want them to move, I ask them to. I have never had any reason to hit any dog that I have worked with, admittedly a limited number, but they include large/guarding breeds with aggression problems, either. Or use a choke chain, illusion collar, electric shock collar, or pin a dog down (which I doubt I'd be physically able to do anyway).


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Crownan said:


> Oh, that old chestnut.
> 
> A piece of paper and someone showing you how to do something _their_ way ('training') does not constitute anything.
> 
> *I know plenty of trained professionals in many fields and half of them dont know thier arse from their elbow*


 
LOL im not trained in anything useful and i still dont know my arse from my elbow :blush::lol2:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

midori said:


> and that sums it up for me really. In a world that some consider has gone PC mad, we mustn't use certain words or phrases, and we mustn't hit our kids. Now we are being told (by some) that we mustn't hit our dogs either... so I guess Cesar Millan, with what many percieve as a no nonsense approach is a breath of fresh air to some.
> 
> I personally have never had any reason to hit my kids (they are all impeccably behaved, kind, considerate children with immaculate manners, people frequently comment on this) and I have never had any reason to hit my dogs, or even move them with my foot. If I want them to move, I ask them to. I have never had any reason to hit any dog that I have worked with, admittedly a limited number, but they include large/guarding breeds with aggression problems, either. Or use a choke chain, illusion collar, electric shock collar, or pin a dog down (which I doubt I'd be physically able to do anyway).



Awww, how perfect are you? :flrt:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> LOL im not trained in anything useful and i still dont know my arse from my elbow :blush::lol2:


:rotfl:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

It's a shame any thread other then "I agree with you all" is turned into personal attacks, usually by a certain few people everytime!


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Yes but from the opposite angle, anyone can smile at the camera, make up some fake behaviourist terms, and pretend to be a Dog Whisperer, no?

The main reason he's on TV is because a. he makes good telly (note - that doesn't mean he's good at what he pretends to do) and b. 50% of his fans are probably middle aged horny ladies.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Yes but from the opposite angle, anyone can smile at the camera, make up some fake behaviourist terms, and pretend to be a Dog Whisperer, no?
> 
> The main reason he's on TV is because a. he makes good telly (note - that doesn't mean he's good at what he pretends to do) and b. 50% of his fans are probably middle aged horny ladies.


Nooooooo thats mr milans job tut woman :Na_Na_Na_Na::lol2:

Hmmmmmmmmm though we could put shell forward to be the cat whisperer

that could would what you think ?:lol2:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Yes but from the opposite angle, anyone can smile at the camera, make up some fake behaviourist terms, and pretend to be a Dog Whisperer, no?
> 
> The main reason he's on TV is because a. he makes good telly (note - that doesn't mean he's good at what he pretends to do) and *b. 50% of his fans are probably middle aged horny ladies.*


:lol2: You're probably right there! lol


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LoveForLizards said:


> :rotfl:


Hmm the few things im good at lets see..................scooping dog poop :gasp:...............skunk poop:gasp:.........

Oh an feedin dogs an skunks too 

walking is something that came naturally to me aint i good hey :blush::lol2::lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I certainly DONT have the hots for CM  Its not even a program I watch very often tbh. Some of the things he does are good some bad but I do admire him for having a large mixed pack :notworthy:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> I certainly DONT have the hots for CM  Its not even a program I watch very often tbh. Some of the things he does are good some bad but *I do admire him for having a large mixed pack* :notworthy:



:gasp: What about his dogs? :gasp:

:lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Me too - just because I dont agree with his methods for the average dog, doesn't mean I dont love Daddy the pitbull and think his pack is great. I even think Cesar has his heart in the right place. I just think that people think because he's on tv that he is always right, and therefore they use his methods - despite the onscreen warning not to - on their average dogs.

He's not my type, I prefer them taller, more manly and less cheesy-hollywood-ping-white teethed.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Crownan said:


> :gasp: What about his dogs? :gasp:
> 
> :lol2:


OMG that made me spit my tea at the screen :gasp::lol2::lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Aww Fenny, come on now - do you have to resort to attacking someone's education to make a point?​


 only if they themselves mention the way they are educated, then demonstrate they don't know the difference between a kick and a nudge. Nothing personal though.
I even pulled Coopie up on a spelling mistake and he was home schooled too weren't you Coopie m'dear?


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## mahender (Apr 28, 2008)

i am gonna set up as a shoe whisperer.

see how i control the shoe. i am not hurting the shoe or demeaning the shoe i am showing it calm assertive energy and a relaxed positive energy.

and if it is a particularly troublesome shoe or a shoe with psych problems i may have to use the shoe horn method.

remember the shoe horn doesnt hurt the shoe.

seriously tho, i think he is cool and as he says there are no bad dogs only owners.


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## farmercoope (Aug 19, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> only if they themselves mention the way they are educated, then demonstrate they don't know the difference between a kick and a nudge. Nothing personal though.
> I even pulled Coopie up on a spelling mistake and he was home schooled too weren't you Coopie m'dear?


Only for like a year and a bit when i was tiny, but who cares! haha


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> only if they themselves mention the way they are educated, then demonstrate they don't know the difference between a kick and a nudge. Nothing personal though.
> I even pulled Coopie up on a spelling mistake and he was home schooled too weren't you Coopie m'dear?


Are you reffering to me?
If so, where did I "demonstrate" that I don't know the difference between a kick and a nudge?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I think FW got confused between you and me in her old age (or excitement over Cesar) :lol2:

I'm the one who (allegedly) doesn't know the difference between a nudge and a kick. Although I do dispute that, and will happily nudge anyone who says it to my face.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I think FW got confused between you and me in her old age (or excitement over Cesar) :lol2:
> 
> I'm the one who (allegedly) doesn't know the difference between a nudge and a kick. Although I do dispute that, and will happily nudge anyone who says it to my face.


:lol2: I was thinking . . . Huh? I haven't made a post about nudgeing and kicking and as far as I know LisaLQ hasn't said she was home schooled.

Oh the ignorance. Haha.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Nope, definitely not homeschooled. I'm a grammar school girl (no, really!).


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## Reaper941 (Mar 21, 2008)

I have a lot of respect for the guy and his methods work. But there's a lot of bad press from Doggy loving soccer mums who don't want their precious children "hurt".


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## ssserpentine (Mar 6, 2008)

without reading all the other posts!...i think hes a genius!, my dog will be raised with his methods in mind b4 being trained, BUT thats the point, hes about physcology and if u watch dogs in a pack from wolf's to dingo's to a domesticated pack of dogs he behaves just as they would!...(i actually think hes a dog sometimes with his mannerisms lol)...but yer big :2thumb::no1: to ceasar! cant b doin with this if he does something good give him food, please!...packleader wouldnt buy an order! hed expect! time an a place for affection n rewards! go ceasar, n daddy is the bomb :flrt: lolol


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Reaper941 said:


> I have a lot of respect for the guy and his methods work. But there's a lot of bad press from Doggy loving soccer mums who don't want their precious children "hurt".


That's a bit tight. That's like me saying the only people who like Cesar are skinhead yobs with penis extending breeds.

There's some of us there edumacated people wot dont like him neither. And not all of us talk to our "babies" in squeaky voices like Sharon Osbourne, in fact I know one person on this thread who is pro-Cesar who does :whistling2::lol2:

*waits for the verbal slap off Fenwoman*


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

ssserpentine said:


> if u watch dogs in a pack from wolf's to dingo's to a domesticated pack of dogs he behaves just as they would


Wolves are dogs, but dogs aren't wolves.

Victoria Stilwell - View topic - Dominance: Dog V Human - taking over the world?

Ignore the website, it's not VS I'm advocating here (never heard of her!), it's just a link to an excellent article by a friend who posts on her forum.

From above:


> We have erroneously in the past decided that dogs, as they are related to wolves, will behave like wolves.
> 
> To a certain extent that is true, but then we also made the error of believing that captive wolf packs behave like wild wolf packs. And surprise surprise - they dont.


Dogs are not Wolves :

I used to have loads of links saved when I was a mod on DogChat but it's been a long time and several computers since, and I no longer need them lol.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> That's a bit tight. That's like me saying the only people who like Cesar are skinhead yobs with penis extending breeds.
> 
> There's some of us there edumacated people wot dont like him neither. And not all of us talk to our "babies" in squeaky voices like Sharon Osbourne, in fact I know one person on this thread who is pro-Cesar who does :whistling2::lol2:
> 
> *waits for the verbal slap off Fenwoman*


:notworthy: Very true! hehe


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Why do people have to resort to mocking a minor about the way she is educated???


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

And whats all this about people who believe in positive training methods being soft??? It is a proven humane way of training dogs, cats, parrots, horses, dolphins, etc etc etc. 

And why does everyone think just because Milan is seen dealing with large breeds on his show, it means he is better than anyone who is shown to deal with mainly smaller breeds? I have seen Victoria Stilwell work with an aggressive white German Shepard on one of her shows. She didn't resort to harsh hands-on methods, she used positive training methods & got the required results!


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## lunarlikes (Mar 6, 2009)

ssserpentine said:


> without reading all the other posts!...i think hes a genius!, my dog will be raised with his methods in mind b4 being trained, BUT thats the point, *hes about physcology* and if u watch dogs in a pack from wolf's to dingo's to a domesticated pack of dogs he behaves just as they would!...(i actually think hes a dog sometimes with his mannerisms lol)...but yer big :2thumb::no1: to ceasar! cant b doin with this if he does something good give him food, please!...packleader wouldnt buy an order! hed expect! time an a place for affection n rewards! go ceasar, n *daddy is the bomb* :flrt: lolol


Definately, and cesar has said himself that he is working with very extreme cases, if the softly softly approach works then uses it.
Hes saving many people and dogs from harm or death. He's also keeping the families together. He always gets the neighbourhood together and works with whats there.
I absolutely think there is some great lessons in which he gives.
My mother in law has 5 in the house you can tell none of them are happy she def DOES NOT use cesar and i HATE going round!:bash:

although we borrowed one of the dogs and it fit into our pack and we used cesars method from the word go. She was a completely different dog!!!!:no1:

and yep daddy is geat:flrt:


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## georgieabc123 (Jul 17, 2008)

hmm i agree with cesars (sp) methods but not the electro collars and pinch lead things but thats its only opinion i dont personally use his methods because ive never needed to normal sit ,stay.lay down,get in your bed does it for me but if people spent time training as a puppy i dont think most dogs would have a problem. i only need to say it once not even shout and they do it but then when you go to the vets everyones dogs are barking fighting and when the people say to you oh wow hes so well behaved they get angry when you say thats because i trained him :whip: it just annoys me how some people treat there dogs ive seen dogs been kicked and punched so they behaved and i will always have a shout at these people :bash: so showing a different effective way to do things without abuse is great to see on the t.v so maybe these people will learn: victory:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

lunarlikes said:


> My mother in law has 5 in the house you can tell none of them are happy she def DOES NOT use cesar and i HATE going round!:bash:
> 
> although we borrowed one of the dogs and it fit into our pack and we used cesars method from the word go. She was a completely different dog!!!!:no1:


Can I ask a. what method and b. where you got the info from (eg telly or book or class)?


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## mahender (Apr 28, 2008)

so no one thinks i should become the shoe whisperer then.???


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm looking to hire a kid whisperer. One that can get mine to clear their room. Not fussed about whether they're humane or not. Alternative is pts.

:lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> That's a bit tight. That's like me saying the only people who like Cesar are skinhead yobs with penis extending breeds.
> 
> There's some of us there edumacated people wot dont like him neither. And not all of us talk to our "babies" in squeaky voices like Sharon Osbourne, in fact I know one person on this thread who is pro-Cesar who does :whistling2::lol2:
> 
> *waits for the verbal slap off Fenwoman*


 No slap from me. I use the squeaky voice instinctually and all my animals respond to it not just the dogs.
Mick Martin often exhorts people to make their voice higher and more exciting.
Tone of voice is very important when communicating with dogs. I'm surprised you don't acknowledge this.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Mick Martin often exhorts people to make their voice higher and more exciting.



I actually saw an episode of dog borstal where he told a guy off because he couldnt do this.
It was hilarious seeing mic teach a guy to retract his testes.
Marina


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

mahender said:


> so no one thinks i should become the shoe whisperer then.???


 so long as you don't become a shoe sniffer like some really wierd people are, buying used shoes off ebay to indulge themselves <ewwww>


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I do the squeaky voice too especially when exercising the younger dogs off lead. They all think Im mad round here already so I dont care what people think:lol2:


Pam how do you know these people buy shoes off Ebay to sniff:whistling2:


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## mahender (Apr 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> so long as you don't become a shoe sniffer like some really wierd people are, buying used shoes off ebay to indulge themselves <ewwww>


 
nah fen. i just stick to scabby knickers. lmao.


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## chucketeechuckstah (Sep 21, 2007)

cubeykc said:


> what are you opinions on ceaser milan? do you agree with his methods and techniques?


i think hes good


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> No slap from me. I use the squeaky voice instinctually and all my animals respond to it not just the dogs.
> Mick Martin often exhorts people to make their voice higher and more exciting.
> Tone of voice is very important when communicating with dogs. I'm surprised you don't acknowledge this.


Christs sake woman, you dont have twist things to your own advantage.

Well done you - you're the ultimate owner, that's it, well done clap clap.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> Christs sake woman, you dont have twist things to your own advantage.
> 
> Well done you - you're the ultimate owner, that's it, well done clap clap.


 It don't matter what say_, _I'll always be in the wrong won't I?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Pam how do you know these people buy shoes off Ebay to sniff:whistling2:


 Where d'you think I gets all me money from? I make a fortune selling my old smelly wellies, crusty crocsies, and rancid reabocks to mucky old scrotes who get their jollies sniffin 'em :lol2:


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