# Fruitflies - Culturing Wizardry and Theory



## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm being slightly lazy tonight as I am off out for a meal.

I think i leave my cultures far too long before splitting them off and starting a-new. I split my mels too early, so think a hydei culture suffered me leaving a bit too long. 

When i start a new culture i tend to try and get as many as possible into the new one (say 100+). 

also, do you guys split, then wash out the old containers and re-use ?

Joe


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Joe I think I'm right in saying female ff hatch first,so one doesn't want to use that very first hatch for the new culture,i'm sure Glenn also mentioned by using consistent early flies culture life can be shortened. I would guess the limiting factor the other way would be mites and how many one has,so really you're looking at the middle produced flies in a culture's life as being best,to use for the new cultures. I'm deliberately not giving number of days,because temps and humidity variations can affect culture life so much

best

Stu

ps yup we reuse culture pots after the culture is spent,cleaning is up there as the most horrible chore in dart keeping,but I hate not recycling stuff,so take the rough option


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I don`t split my cultures and just use what I think is needed to get the new one up and running.
If mites are in there it makes no difference at what age the culture is when you make a new one from it.
I also don`t have any problems from using a new hatch or one a few days old.


Mike


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

It was Ed that said with Hydei males hatch first for the first few days.

When making Mel's, I use a mix of flies that are 2+ weeks old and 3+ weeks old. 

Hydei, 3+ weeks old and 4+ weeks old.

Around 70-30 without measuring.

I have made cultures fresh flies too and they've produced for me. You can tell the sex of the fly by six. The males are smaller and follow the females around. 

That last part struck me as funny. lol 

I toss my plastic cups and wash the vented lids. I know...my bad. :blush:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

not got any mites *fingers crossed* just left a culture a fair few weeks and the media smells like a sewer and is runny now.


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## creg (Jun 10, 2012)

I've never been successful breeding Mel's, I think maybe I'm keeping them at too low temperature. Hydei on the other hand I've got way more than I know what to do with, I have 2 juvi azureus and about 6 thriving cultures. If anyone needs some collection from b647hn :lol2: I hate seeing good food go to waste.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I'm the same to be honest - hydei cultures just explode and I can't use them fast enough whereas mel cultures seem to take a bit more effort just to keep them ticking over. Having said that I have never really spent time trying to optimise the media for them.

However, I have just received a culture of a different morph from a friend and this new type seems to be more productive. I think the morph I have been using for the last 3 or 4 years originated from Dartfrog, but might soon be ditched in favour of these new ones!

Nick


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

I find both pretty straight forward and my current room is not warm by any stretch of the imagination, mels are generally producing after a couple weeks.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Like you guys my Hydei produce faster than I can use. Was worried about Mels but soon picked up a bit


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

P.s the bean weevils that did not come through for a month or so, moved em couple of weeks back to on top of me light, boom!


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

sam here with mels being shite and hydei exploding. 

I might try upping the humidity in the bug fridge by putting a open tub of water on top the heat mat. 

saying that, terribs dont take much interest in the smaller feeders.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

still having a mare with these mels, still got some inactive larvae in my cultures, not seen owt from the two dartfrog cultures. worried as i need some for my young leucs, they've been snapping up springs and woods (i add a few woods every couple of days, usually near my guys). anyone recommend anywhere decent to get em from, is livefooddirect okay ?

btw J, the little guy has come right up to the front now and is mingling with the bigger two:flrt:


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

Yeah get mine from Livefoods direct.


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## Muggs (Feb 9, 2011)

This is quite an interesting read for me - I have never had an issue with Mels and always considered them to be far easier and quicker than Hydei. As for culture pots, I reuse all of my culture pots with the exception of the odd coffee jar that I just throw away. I don't do anything special with my Mels and my culture food is a simple as it gets!


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

I've always found the same, mels are easier than hydei. 

Joe, what are you keeping your flies in? More specifically what types of lids? When I first switched from buying proper fruit fly tubs to making my own DIY culture pots I was using pint pots with mesh as a lid held on with a rubber band and was confused as to why I was getting no flies. I picked a trick up off somebody on here (thanks to whoever it was ) about restricting airflow until maggots start to appear. Initially I use a lid with as little ventilation as possible which seems to speed up production. I'm sure somebody (my money is on Stu, Ade or Nick ) will come along with the science as to why it works but maybe have an experiment with different lids and see what happens?


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## Muggs (Feb 9, 2011)

I do have a few 'commercial' culture pots but most of mine are the fridge pack baked bean pots or coffee jars with a J-Cloth over the top.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

I've got black jungle cups, not too much ventilation tbh.


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

I also have a few jungle cups that get used and don't have an issue 
My issues I found was getting the media right I tried many types but found the one that worked for me was fine oat cereal cheepist money can buy and water and I make it rather sloppy and put a scrubbing pad in there (75p for 30 of them) 
I found mine crashed a lot due to been too dry


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

ronnyjodes said:


> I've always found the same, mels are easier than hydei.
> 
> Joe, what are you keeping your flies in? More specifically what types of lids? When I first switched from buying proper fruit fly tubs to making my own DIY culture pots I was using pint pots with mesh as a lid held on with a rubber band and was confused as to why I was getting no flies. I picked a trick up off somebody on here (thanks to whoever it was ) about restricting airflow until maggots start to appear. Initially I use a lid with as little ventilation as possible which seems to speed up production. I'm sure somebody (my money is on Stu, Ade or Nick ) will come along with the science as to why it works but maybe have an experiment with different lids and see what happens?


Jonny i don't think me,but I have remarked on the fact that if one restricts/stops airflow the maggots will crawl out of the media. This can be used as a dodge to harvest maggots for feeding to the frogs. 

Guys i think the quantity of fluid in the mix is crucial,as Dane has mentioned. This is relative to the air humidity,plus naturally the airflow through the lids. I think on the scale most of us work it isn't feasable to culture under ideal conditions:changes in humidity through the year,mean we are always amending the quantity of fluid in our mixes.Drying out cultures,just don't do well,so sometimes extra water is needed say a week or two later. the trouble is,too much water at the start,means the mix can be so sloppy the flies get stuck in it. We have alot in one room,we have to run a dehumidifier in there 
now,as the humidity was getting excessive,so we regularly top up cultures with a hand mister,but this might not apply to everyone.

I also think that finding a good strain of mel here,is possibly trickier,than say the states,or maybe one that is able to thrive under,our individual culture conditions. over the years i've noted that mels stateside seen to be rock solid,and hydei seem to give more variable results,but tend to see the opposite,as a couple have mentioned here. This might be nothing,and me jumping to the wrong conclusion,who knows.

What I really think is worth doing is sticking with one culture when you find it,really try to keep that strain going. I think the flies are constantly adapting to the environmental conditions,as they get more and more inbred,basically one crates one's own strain,that works well for you personally,ha that doesn't help much for somebody struggling to start though.

So joe try what jon said at start up,maybe put a jcloth under the jungle pot lid for the first week,personally,I don't think it should be needed with those pots,also try adding a bit more water at the off,if you can't make the initial mix wetter,then add a bit of water later,basically ring the changes and monitor the hell out of what you do. Also keep the mels a bit cooler than the hydie. It so damn tricky this one as I'm convinced what I do might not work for another guy,because of the different environments,so giving out exact methods is almost impossible.Oh mate,maybe try a few of the mixes for mels,a mate swears buy a different brand to the repashy for mels,i'll see if I can dig that out.

Some random thoughts joe,might be some substance in there,:lol2:

seeya

Stu


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Do you guys have Melanogaster "Turkish Gliders" available there?


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> Do you guys have Melanogaster "Turkish Gliders" available there?


 I have seen these for sale at a reptile show last year im sure, there bigger then the typical mels we normally use aren't they? which is maybe what put me off getting some (only had thumbnails then)

why do you ask Glenn are they easer to keep??


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## Orlex (Nov 14, 2013)

I use mashed potatos+ready brek+oats+orange juice+water, what do you think guys? Its ok?


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> I have seen these for sale at a reptile show last year im sure, there bigger then the typical mels we normally use aren't they? which is maybe what put me off getting some (only had thumbnails then)
> 
> why do you ask Glenn are they easer to keep??


If you have them there, I would def grab some! From my experiences with Mel's they are, by far, the easiest one's to raise and are far more tolerable of culture conditions. I get the best and longest blooms with them too. Wetter or drier they will still produce for me and I've never had a crash, no matter how many are in the culture. The only downfall is they are fast lil buggers.

EDIT: Thumbs love em!


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> If you have them there, I would def grab some! From my experiences with Mel's they are, by far, the easiest one's to raise and are far more tolerable of culture conditions. I get the best and longest blooms with them too. Wetter or drier they will still produce for me and I've never had a crash, no matter how many are in the culture. The only downfall is they are fast lil buggers.
> 
> EDIT: Thumbs love em!


 im sure have used these before when I had chameleon babies... I will see if can find some and give them ago, cheers for the tip mate


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> im sure have used these before when I had chameleon babies... I will see if can find some and give them ago, cheers for the tip mate


LMAO.Watch him Dane,he knows damn well we have turks here in blighty,I always get suspicious when Glenn asks things like this 'cause he's way too clever too forget stuff. Natrually what he says is probably true though I can back him on this two fold,first asked the yanks,they said this was their most productive mel,second I have some and me mate does know of them:lol2:,they do really well. As a point aside from productivity,great froggy food as the frogs have to work to catch them,they are fast and jump. I think we ought to get some for Ron actually,he would love culturing these:no1:
Sorry Glenn:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Oh Dane,I can't help at the mo,I so rarely sell flies,but if you source some keep them very separate to your other cultures and watch well for mites,we weren't careful enough,so learned the hard way,learn from my mistake kiddo
got a mite from hell with those turks
Stu


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

soundstounite said:


> LMAO.Watch him Dane,he knows damn well we have turks here in blighty,I always get suspicious when Glenn asks things like this 'cause he's way too clever too forget stuff. Natrually what he says is probably true though I can back him on this two fold,first asked the yanks,they said this was their most productive mel,second I have some and me mate does know of them:lol2:,they do really well. As a point aside from productivity,great froggy food as the frogs have to work to catch them,they are fast and jump. I think we ought to get some for Ron actually,he would love culturing these:no1:
> Sorry Glenn:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Oh Dane,I can't help at the mo,I so rarely sell flies,but if you source some keep them very separate to your other cultures and watch well for mites,we weren't careful enough,so learned the hard way,learn from my mistake kiddo
> ...


ha ha yeah we should get ron loads of them they sound bags of fun :lol2:

its ok mate im sure i will be able to get my hands on some of these fellas the more i think about them im 92.5% i have had them before 

mites are a nightmare full stop lost a springtail culture to some not long back

can the frogs eat mites? i have never fed them to them on purpose but 100% sure the odd few go in from some fly cultures


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> ha ha yeah we should get ron loads of them they sound bags of fun :lol2:
> 
> its ok mate im sure i will be able to get my hands on some of these fellas the more i think about them im 92.5% i have had them before
> 
> ...


Yeah sure Dane frogs love mites:2thumb:.


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## Orlex (Nov 14, 2013)

Hey hey hey, my post gonna be missed,please answer as well :lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Orlex said:


> I use mashed potatos+ready brek+oats+orange juice+water, what do you think guys? Its ok?


 do you use all that together? i only use ready brek and water... i did used to put honey in there to stop the mould but one day I ran out and found i don't get mould anyway due to the amount of flies i put in the maggots churn it up - less expense :2thumb: 

i have played with many mediums from banana, fruit juice, yeast white wine vinegar smash..... my own opinion is i found it all similar and stuck to the cheapest 

im sure every single person has a different method, different ingredients and maybe different results 

just find what works for you trial and error mate


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## Orlex (Nov 14, 2013)

I know somebody else who use only ready brek, but its not so cheap to run on his own as well I can say  as I have about 15 cultures running  as far if you dont put many media, show me pic please mate


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i've ordered 3 cultures from dartfrog-vivariums (not Marcs dartfrog) they sell them in three stages, so i bought new, intermediate and mature mel cultures. shall have a play with the early two and get the mature for feeding and some play, depending on how many flies etc.

as for maggots churning, my media is currently moving lol the missus didnt like the look of it, still she's fallen for frogs, thats the first step...


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Orlex said:


> I know somebody else who use only ready brek, but its not so cheap to run on his own as well I can say  as I have about 15 cultures running  as far if you dont put many media, show me pic please mate


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibian-care-sheets/585208-ffs-done-cheap.html

this is what i copied mate also has good pics and loads of detail.... i get the cheapest make i can find in aldi/ lidle or netto


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## Orlex (Nov 14, 2013)

You are best dude :no1::2thumb: Thats amazing, thanks for that mate, really appreciate .


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> LMAO.Watch him Dane,he knows damn well we have turks here in blighty,I always get suspicious when Glenn asks things like this 'cause *he's way too clever too forget stuff*.


Stu,
I turned *50* this year and I swear Alzheimer's was my first gift! :Na_Na_Na_Na: :censor: :lol2:

Either that or the Hard drive is full...:blush:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ah ya bugger ya never told me,belated grat's mate:no1:,so you are older than me after all? i'd really like to say same here ,but i can remember Andie posting that ff mix years back,go figure huh? 

Orlex :welcome:, sorry for missing your post,strange thin gs happen when you have two over 50 OAP's posting:gasp: We have used Andie's simple media for yonks now,only with honey. We do also keep the repashy superfly,for us it seems to give slightly more mels.Hydie use so much media in our big cultures,it's abit pricey for that. Having said that we don't seem to get differing results anyway. By the sound of it you are doing ok anyway,the only thing i would say is if that is the case and you do try something new,trial it first against what you already do,ie don't change everything at once.

Joe good luck mate,did he tell you what strain of mel

Stu


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

dunno fella tbh :lol2: shall find out


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Joe good luck mate,did he tell you what strain of mel
> 
> Stu





Meefloaf said:


> dunno fella tbh :lol2: shall find out


Japanese Kamikazi- guaranteed to make suicidal dives into your tea... :devil:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Japanese Kamikazi- guaranteed to make suicidal dives into your tea... :devil:


You so need some turks Ron:lol2: We don't do fly Tea,a south east thing by chance? Joking aside Ron, i'm genuinely amazed by how few ff we see around the house,naturally all credit to Shaz,I think crix would probably be more problems to us,so i'm really glad she put her foot down on those now.

Happy new year bro

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

And to both of you, mate! 

I agree crickets are a pain too- and quite a few escapees do turn up, but at least they are easy to catch or squish.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Ron, if you ever land near Toronto, you're welcome to sleep in the frog room. 

Problem is you'd be having FF nightmares the rest of your life! PTSD in one night! :lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> Ron, if you ever land near Toronto, you're welcome to sleep in the frog room.
> 
> Problem is you'd be having FF nightmares the rest of your life! PTSD in one night! :lol2:


Such a _kind_ offer from our Far-flung Friends...


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i once found a colony of crickets under my floorboards, never again ! flys find a drink and die in it lol


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

There's nothing quite like putting a drink down for a minute, walking in to the next room for something and returning to said beverage to find a hydei practising the backstroke........


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> Do you guys have Melanogaster "Turkish Gliders" available there?


I can now say yes there available :flrt: received 5 cultures this morning. 
will update people on how i find them if it helps


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

thank you for picking this back up, i got my mels from dartfrog-vivariums the other day, and i noticed that they do 'jump'


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

i have stolen this idea

JP's FF Culture Idea - Dendroboard

i tried reusing cups, but i found it the most disgusting thing i have ever had to do, so i had been chucking out cups and buying new. but that is wayyy too expensive. so i've decided to try this, seems to work so far.

i've also found myself getting through my 64oz bag of superfly a bit too quick for my liking so i have tried bulking out the media a little bit with oatbran 

hydei eat a lot of media and after reading on here that a zoo half fills their cultures with media, i gave that a go back in october. those cultures were still feeding out into mid december, whilst the ones with the "usual" amount of media (3 tablespoons to 160ml) ate all of there media and died out within 4 weeks with approx 75-100 flies. i found a balance of an extra tablespoon of media per 920ml culture provide lasts for 5-6weeks 

hydei have stayed pretty reliable for me so far (apart from the gold) and i feel confident with them. 



mels on the other hand. they can go :censor: off. they make a lot of pupa, none of them hatch and then mites take over. i have tried 100+ flies starter. i have tried making the media wetter, but ~30% of them get stuck and die :bash:. i am lucky i don't rely on these of feeding, the terribs do take them, and they provide a little better "sport" for them and i will need to nail them for any potential offspring. if anyone has any "turkish gliders" available then let me know, i would love to try them out.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

plasma234 said:


> mels on the other hand. they can go :censor: off. they make a lot of pupa, none of them hatch and then mites take over. i have tried 100+ flies starter. i have tried making the media wetter, but ~30% of them get stuck and die :bash:.


This is what went wrong with mine. I suspect that at some stage I got cross contamination with wild type and things went wrong. From those cultures I now barely get 2:1 production. The good news is I got a new starter from a friend and all is now well again, cultures booming. Nice to know they hadn't just developed a disliking of my media!! The old strain will now be phased out methinks....

Nick


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

when i started out i bought mels from 2 or 3 different vendors at SWARE and then mixed them when i made new cultures. maybe you are right. 

looking at the humidity probe in the "bug fridge" the humidity had dropped down to 15% and has only hit a high of 38% and is currently at 25% so maybe it is the lack of humidity. i have put an open jar of water on top of the heat mat to see if i can increase that number and maybe increase production from them. i might just restrict air flow on their containers.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

plasma234 said:


> when i started out i bought mels from 2 or 3 different vendors at SWARE and then mixed them


That could easily be your problem identified!


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Carotenoid supplementation enhances reproductive success in captive strawberry poison frogs (Oophaga pumilio). - ResearchGate

A friend brought this to my attention and I thought I would re-post here as the implications are quite interesting. If anyone wants the full version, just let me know.

The paper is actually about carotenoid supplementation and the authors claim to see an effect, but from the information they present it seems that this effect could equally be assigned to a number of other uncontrolled factors. However, there is one solid conclusion that is worth sharing: For the same volume of fruitfly medium, the composition of that medium significantly affects the success of metamorphosis of tadpoles to froglets, raised by adult pumilio fed from the different FF cultures.

Basically, whether or not this has anything to do with carotenoids is unclear. But what is clear is that if you raise your flies on a higher quality medium, you will see improved metamorphosis success of your froglets. Presumably due to the added nutritive value being passed through the flies, to the adult female, through the trophic eggs and into the tads.

How many times have we heard that you cant 'gut load' fruit flies and that the only advantage of tinkering with media is to reduce mold/mites and boost productivity? It's nice to see some evidence that additional goodies in the media can indeed improve the nutritive quality of the flies themselves and, thus, improve the fitness of our frogs!

Nick


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

DrNick said:


> Carotenoid supplementation enhances reproductive success in captive strawberry poison frogs (Oophaga pumilio). - ResearchGate
> 
> A friend brought this to my attention and I thought I would re-post here as the implications are quite interesting. If anyone wants the full version, just let me know.
> 
> ...


Might be worth sharing that in the Journals sticky.


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

I had problems with mels before I was using a named brand of media. I put it down to the mold inhibitors in them and the fact I maybe wasnt using enough yeast.

I now either boil the water I use in my Media or blast it in the microwave and leaving to cool before adding my flies etc. It helps activate the Mold Inhibitors! OR so I read anyway - I have got to say I have definitely noticed a difference in Mels since doing this and definitely no mold!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Nick very breif ,no time,I've not read the paper yet,but on a vaguely similar subject,I think it's worth anyone interested doing some searches on DB about the use of repashy bug burger,as a feeding station,especially regarding rearing pums,but applicable to all young frogs.

I'm led to believe ff gut in and out is 6hours,which has always made this layman think ,something of a fly's last meal has to get to the frogs, so we have often popped the flies for feeding on different left over fruit,before feeding.

must dash,thanks for this

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> I'm led to believe ff gut in and out is 6hours,which has always made this layman think ,something of a fly's last meal has to get to the frogs, so we have often popped the flies for feeding on different left over fruit,before feeding.
> 
> must dash,thanks for this
> 
> Stu


Cheers Stu - I agree that gut-loading can't hurt, but the point I was making (a little vaguely admittedly!!) is that the culture medium may change the actual nutritional composition of the fly, regardless of what the adult fly feeds on. For that to happen, the additional nutrients would need to be present for the larvae to feed on.

Nick

P.S. the full paper isn't much more enlightening than the abstract!


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

DrNick said:


> Carotenoid supplementation enhances reproductive success in captive strawberry poison frogs (Oophaga pumilio). - ResearchGate
> 
> A friend brought this to my attention and I thought I would re-post here as the implications are quite interesting. If anyone wants the full version, just let me know.
> 
> ...


i may be totally worng with this and will try find some info to back this thought up but carotenoid supplementation is already given to our flies in the terms of honey and for lesser wax months honey comb... afreed maybe not in massive qty and i dont know exactly how much they will take in but my guess is that some is already gut loaded into adult flies and larve.......... this is a pure guess on how you explain the gutloading for flies work into the frogs i assume this could then work for the honey bee eating this via the pollen and therefore seding the honey

a wild guess but im gona look for more info as im really bored at work 

cheers for this nick


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I wasn't aware of these pigments being present in measurable quantities in honey, but interesting if it's true - I suppose it must get it's colour somehow! I have to say I don't use honey for culturing - far too stingey.....

Many carotenoids - e.g. astaxanthin which is used in the commercial pigment NatuRose for colouring farmed salmon etc. - are lipid soluble and incorporated into the lipid membranes of cells during tissue generation. The membrane binding is very secure so I have always presumed that any such compounds (and others - this isn't limited to carotenoids) would be retained as the larvae develop and passed through to the frogs. In the case of astaxanthin, it can be released either by digestion or extreme heat (which is why many marine crustaceans turn red when you boil them - e.g. lobsters). No reason it can't also work for fruit flies!

Nick


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

DrNick said:


> I wasn't aware of these pigments being present in measurable quantities in honey, but interesting if it's true - I suppose it must get it's colour somehow! I have to say I don't use honey for culturing - far too stingey.....
> 
> Many carotenoids - e.g. astaxanthin which is used in the commercial pigment NatuRose for colouring farmed salmon etc. - are lipid soluble and incorporated into the lipid membranes of cells during tissue generation. The membrane binding is very secure so I have always presumed that any such compounds (and others - this isn't limited to carotenoids) would be retained as the larvae develop and passed through to the frogs. In the case of astaxanthin, it can be released either by digestion or extreme heat (which is why many marine crustaceans turn red when you boil them - e.g. lobsters). No reason it can't also work for fruit flies!
> 
> Nick


found some info but like im not sure on qty 
page 134
Animal Biochromes and Structural Colours: Physical, Chemical, Distributional ... - Denis Llewellyn Fox - Google Books

i cut out the honey when i ran out once as was only using it to supress mould, think i may start adding it back in just in case 

i dont want to boil my flies to see if they turn red!!!


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Interesting - you learn something every day....

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Nick,you got your point over perfectly,I was rushing my apologies mate. Anyway you know how I am, all this reading,but not all of it fixes,just enough though that I can go back and refresh the old grey matter. I knew i'd come across this before,I remembered Ed and Allen Repshy musing,but not much else.

So for anyone else,struggling to access the whole paper,I'm just getting the abstract, here is a damn good read,plus,Allen links the complete paper in his first post.

New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids - Dendroboard

See the lights actually are on,it's just no one's home, tis all:whistling2:

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks Stu - an interesting discussion there and some useful info.

It's interesting work that definitely supports the importance of these compounds in the amphibian diet - something I don't doubt to be the case. 

That said, I'm surprised that some of the dendroboard dwellers (who, lets be honest, are some of the most pedantic people on the planet...) haven't taken issue with the way the experiments were performed - it is not a good paper IMO.... 

By adding ingredients 7-9 to one culture and not the other they are not just supplementing carotenoids, they are supplementing all sorts of other compounds (lipids, fatty acids & proteins for example) some of which we KNOW are important in embryological development (a rough calculation for example suggests up to 20% more bulk protein in the experimental media compared to the control, just from the spirulina...). 

The 'control', therefore, is really no such thing and they write about carotenoids because that is what they are interested in, not because they provide any direct evidence that those compounds have an effect. To make it worthwhile they really needed to use pure compounds as additives, or else do a full nutrient analysis on the flies.

Sorry, I'm being a bore, but these things bug me!

I'm not writing it off by any means, just saying that it needs very careful interpretation! The authors must be in good books on DB ;-)

Nick


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> Thanks Stu - an interesting discussion there and some useful info.
> 
> It's interesting work that definitely supports the importance of these compounds in the amphibian diet - something I don't doubt to be the case.
> 
> ...


Nick totally not being a bore. you are an out an out scientist,i'm not mate,sure could possibly have gone down that road many years back,but basically my point is,i'm a layman. So simply put I don't understand the papers on the level you do. Your point of view on how they have gone about this,is wonderful for me to read,gives me greater understanding. I struggle like hell to actually read these damn papers,their language is so alien to me.

Anyway,what my main question is and really it's based on the thread,is do you see any validity in adding superpig at 5% to our culturing media for ff, and maybe the bug burger too especially as I'm seriously pondering the use of this as a type of feeding station for young frogs.

If the control is invalidating the experiment in your eyes,but the results in the flesh see an improvement in young frog numbers/viability. Then surely something(maybe the carotenoids),maybe a plethra of factors,included in the "improved media" can be pulled for us to improve the quality of fly we produce.

That's what I'm after Nick,upping the quality of my feeders if one can. Hopefully in a very simple way,ha which suits me,because the simple things are what I do. Doing them well is the cornerstone of what we do really,I suspect the reason we seem to do ok in all this

I know mate I'm not really delving into the big picture here,that your seeing,so am almost asking for something impossible to provide:if the control means we don't know what the actual substance/s are that are causing the improvement,then how can you recommend trying a particular formula. Ed's posts do make me ponder the carotenoids though:lol2:,they would wouldn't they. I'm going to sound really ignorant now ,but hell I'll ask anyway,what is asthaxathin. I realize a carotenoid,but he is implying he adds just this on it's own..

thanks buddy

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi Stu - I completely agree. What this shows, if nothing else, is that the FF growth media is important and can affect frog health. That in itself is enough to make it worth playing around with! In all likelihood the carotenoids are a factor. It's just that, on the basis of their experiments, this cannot be claimed with as much conviction as the authors seem to think! (in my opinion......)

My FF media is never the same twice - stuff just gets thrown in. And although this makes it difficult to make statements of certainty, it also makes it clear when things make a difference. Sometimes flies are big, sometimes small, sometimes loads of them, sometimes fewer. But one thing I have noticed is that when the media gets the dregs of an old pouch of Repashy Ca+ (once every 6 months or so) the flies do really well and mels particularly have more of an orange colouration.

It seems common sense to me that all sorts of nutrients, including pigments, can be sequestered by the flies during development and passed on to frogs - whether this is supported in the scientific literature or not. So sure, I would say there is value in supplementing the media, but I have no evidence for that other than occasional brightly coloured flies!! Most of what you read will say the contrary though, supplemented by statements like "I don't think there is much nutritional value in ants". First, what is nutritional value? Surely if they contain one compound that would otherwise be lacking, they are making a valuable contribution? They don't need to be a complete diet on their own! Second, this discussion seems to be opening up the debate on the importance of certain compounds that may be naturally present in only certain types of feeder insect.

Astaxanthin is just one compound in the family of pigments from which plants obtain their colour (red, in the case of astaxanthin, like pomegranates for example). It is picked up on most frequently in hobbys like ours for no other reason than its industrial uses made it economical to produce in large quantities, unlike other carotenoids. So, like products from Spirulina, it is readily available and cheap to produce. As you know, little is known about how/if these compounds are passed up food chains and what their effects on the health of ultimate consumers may be. You can buy it 'pure'(ish) under various trade names including NatuRose. It is definitely present in Superpig (and, I think in Ca+).

Nick


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