# Primate Codes of Practice



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

In light of recent discussions concerning primates in this forum, and all of the controversy that surrounds not just the species but at times the mere mention of the word - Primate. I thought it would be beneficial to see what keepers thought the codes of conduct for this species should comprise of?

Welfare Needs

The need for a suitable environment
The need for a suitable diet
The need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns
Any need to be housed with, or apart from, other animals
The need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease

The above are all the relevant issues that each code of practice needs to concentrate upon.

So as fellow keepers albeit perhaps not primate keepers, what would each one mean to you?

For instance when you look upon a suitable environment, what comes to mind? Or the need to express and exhibit normal behaviourial patterns?

I am interested to see what both keepers of primates may believe as indeed am l to see what non primate keepers think.

Thanks

R​


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Welfare Needs​
> The need for a suitable environment
> *A suitably sized outdoor enclosure with indoor nesting/sleeping area. Sufficient environmental stimuli recreating thier natural environment as best possible in captive care.*
> The need for a suitable diet
> ...




I am going to possible open the line of fire for myself here but I genuinely beleive that aside from COP's for primates, people should be required to have licenses along the same lines of DWA and be subject to spot checks and such also.

This isn't about housing a small animal in a private environment, it is about housing an intelligent and often demanding species in a suitbale environemtn that will continually offer mental stimulation and environmental enrichment to the primate.

I reckon these COP's are long overdue for primates especially and I am sure that the majority of specialist primate keepers would have no qualms with holding a license and such.​


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> [/b]
> 
> I am going to possible open the line of fire for myself here but I genuinely beleive that aside from COP's for primates, people should be required to have licenses along the same lines of DWA and be subject to spot checks and such also.
> 
> ...


Hi Brit, 

I don't think its a case of placing yourself in the line of fire at all.

I do think that if keepers want to see these codes appear not just for primates, but for all animals kept then they are going to have to kick up a fuss over their creation.

As you well know, l was not happy with the primates coming off dwal, not because the licence was a thing of beauty, but only because it was able to regulate keepers of primates, l still think that all primates should be licenced now, and that would be including the marmoset species as well.

Primates should be licenced full stop, failure to achieve this will result in complete and utter breakdown of correct and corrected husbandry and of course responsible ownership. This is aimed at all primate keepers and l know that many of them do not want a licencing format such as the dwal in place, but l do believe that a 'primate licence' should be created and issued.

I am curently looking at codes of conduct for primates and l think that the end result should they be activated will be seen as a very stark reality of how primates should be kept for now and the future.

Should a code never be released then l only see the end of primate keeping in private hands in the UK.

R


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

What worries me is that should a COP not be released, where will the regulations come from for primates? In quite a frank manner of speaking - stuff the keepers! The primates can't speak out for themselves and I am sick to the back teeth of hearing people saying "I know my monkey is happy living in substandard conditions in a bird cage in the living room and being mauled by my kid brother every day". For God's sake when will these people learn that the seller has sold them a single monkey NOt for the benefit of the primate but for the benefit to thier pocket and the ease of not having to deal with offspring themselves - often because they have adults not being kept in optimal conditions.

It really gets to me and I am not, nor do I plan to ever become, a primate keeper so it REALLY phishes me off to think that primate keepers - who in my mind should be classed as a specialist group - don't seem to want anything to happen to the hobby which will benefit the charges they display thier interest in.

Enough waffle anyhoo 

(can't get on MSN for some reason either Rory but got link and will try to get on and chat tomorrow)


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

It is not just the primate keepers who are at fault to be honest, but in many respects a lot of keepers right across the board who do not want to better the hobby, or can not be bothered to see it improve, or do not think there is athreat so why worry?

I had a pm the other day from a member of this forum who said l should be less aggressive in my posts, and l had to laugh, because in actual fact l do not think l come across as aggressive enough, but l could be. But prefer to reserve that strength for when times are appropriate.

I was told that l was a scaremongerer and fear mongerer last year, so l have been quiet on the fact front, just awarding readership with what needs to be awarded.

But the simple feature present in the industry today is this, many keepers are fearing the political legislation and as such are turning a blind eye to its potential power .... and possible threats.

Primates are a specialist species, but then so are reptiles, indeed, are not all the animals dealt with by the exotic keeping community's not specialist?

And what should happen if the primate codes are not released?

Well l think that is relatively simple to answer... those that oppose the keeping of them, will start to campaign against the keeping of the species in private hands.

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Recently pointed out to me, although not entirely lost on me is one feature which of course l feel should not be overlooked by any keeper of species kept, but should be viewed by primate keepers with some significance is of course the pyschological aspect of keeping primates.

Many neurological problems arise from especially the keeping of singles, the hand rearing aspects, the wrong environment, the wrong or lack of enrichment, the lack of companionship, the wrong handling, the wrong enclosures, the lack of the right diet, the right care, all these topics are paramount to ensuring that your primates life in captive care is optimum.

Its too easy for certain primates to be purchased, there is no policing or enforcement nor regulation in place to ensure that issues like this are dealt with correctly.

The opposition to the keeping of primates do place a great amount of responsibility on this issue alone - what of the pyschological aspect of keeping primates - how does it affect them long term?

The anti believes for some strange reason that the private keeper can buy wild caught primates through the pet trade, and this is not the case, primates are in fact captive bred. So when one reads about the illegal trade in wild caught primates, l feel sure that they are confusing countries here.

When they talk of the illegal ownership of primates, to which do they refer? Without licence? Or when did it become illegal to actually own a primate?

That aside, and back to the pyschological aspect of primates, this issue, alongside all the other issues is l think one of the most important topics that needs to be addressed.

But does it really need to simply be addressed to primates, can it not indeed be looked upon for all species kept in captive care?

I occasionally watch cold blood with D/A and have to be honest that when l look at the native environments to all these reptiles, why would anyone not want to keep them in an enclosure that was not at least a little stimulating, and instead keep them on newspaper for ease?

Probably get slated for that, fine, but then look at it this way, the codes of practice if drawn up for reptiles will also be looking at the substrate, the enrichment and the environment.

Now if keepers who say that primates should be kept in the right conditions can say that, then they too must also understand that where is - for primates - a fair comment, look at reptiles, are they all kept in optimum conditions? Is the plastic box really ideal for them?

Perhaps for convenience maybe, but what of the empathy voter who also watches this series and is fascinated by the natural surroundings of the species, as much as the opposition feel that primates can not be kept properly by the private keeper, do they not have the rights to suggest that it should apply to the next political species agenda - reptiles?

So primates yes, need to be addressed in a pyschological issue, but l think so do - all the others.

R


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Any need to be housed with, or apart from, other animals*

I think for me personally, it is this one which always gets me annoyed with keepers:

'Any need to be housed with, or apart from, other animals'

Primates are a social species, unless of course naturally they are a solitary species, but the likes of marmosets and tamarins especially as they are the most commonly kept species in the United Kingdom, these are a social species, and do need to be kept in pair, troops, groups.

Continuing along from the pyschological aspect in my previous post, social enrichment comprises of the species being able to freely exhibit normal behavioural patterns as well as cognitive ability.

The amount of times, l am asked by potential keepers for a single 'monkey' is staggering. Indeed on this very forum, we have one such example.

But l genuinely do not understand how keepers whom say they have researched into primates can expect a single to be happy with its life. 

Constantly l hear those wannabee keepers state that they can give the primate everything they need - HOW?

This is the issue alongside others that the codes should reflect, but also that keepers should be able to comprehend what this code means.

Is it too much to ask of keepers to put themselves out a little? The anti and the opposition may not always be up to speed with accurate figures, but they do know the acute political agendas - is it little wonder that the opposition to primates are heralded by professional conservationists - who do know their stuff, who understand the implications behind the species.

But they also know their politics, and is it also little wonder that they look at 'exotic animal keepers' with scorn and distaste? For whilst there may be a percentage who do everything they can to ensure that their animals are in optimum environmental conditions - the percentage who do not is indeed much higher.

Not only do many exotic keepers refrain from taking the research , but they also have at times a complete and utter failing to demonstrate their passions politically, and as a result of this - those whom oppose what keepers maintain, can only but surmise that the captive exotic animal carer - really does not care for the future of their animals?

So l would like to know especially from primate keepers, why you think and how you can justify to not just me, but to all how and why your single primates can co exist with you as their sole 'buddy?'

R


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## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

lets face it the people that keep single primates will never come forward and say they do as they will get slated

I dont know how many primate keepers come to this site but we know there are people on here who keep single primates

They know how they are keeping there primates is wrong otherwise they would come forward and say something,so come on stand up and have your say

Still they must be good for nothings and putting at risk us that care for them proper ,to others that really are only thinking of themselves


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Well you know my views on this Irwin, and you know that l agree with what you state.

R


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

*dont forget...*

and i havent seen it mentioned, the animal dealers who provide these unfortunate animals are as guilty as, if not more so than thier misguided psuedo child in a cage keepers, i dont think i should continue until i say, that i dont like u rory or ur partner, u call ur customers "clients" add long winded and fancy "consultant primatologist" crap to ur posts, ur both animal dealers, in the lowest sense. at the end of the day money is ur driving force, and the keeper's is something to stare at and place little christmas hats on in photos. if primates were banned from private keeping then that would in every sense be in the best interests of the primates.I hope i haven't been too honest for this forum and thread, rgds, Edward


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You are entitled to your view point Edward as indeed is everyone else.

I have never denied that l do sell Primates. Nor have l ever denied that l am a livestock consultant or broker, but l am not a dealer.

Is money my main motivator? No it is not.

And perhaps you have a point in what you say - perhaps Primates would be better off banned, but then equally as many would come back and state that once this happens, reptiles would not be that far away. And perhaps equally as many would say the same to the reptiles being banned, and any other exotic animal that may appear to not bode well in captivity.

But if you wish to attack primate sellers then attack all of the ones who are not doing it right, who don't give a flying damn where primates go. It is all too easy to slam dunk those that ARE visible isn't it?

But no, your honesty in your eyes does me no grief.

R


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## Scott W (May 19, 2007)

I can't really see why primates warrant 'extra' protection than any other animal, they all deserve the same level of care and well being.

Yes primates have many criterea that make them unsuitable for a large number of people but so do many dogs. Yet I don't see a rally from anyone trying to ban or license dog ownership.


I should have the same RIGHT to keep primates as anyone else in the UK (that includes zoo's too). Sure I would have to provide the correct husbandary and facilities but if I can do that then why shouldn't I keep them?

The difficult issue is bad keepers, how do you filter them out? how do you ensure that primates are kept correctly? Of course the easy solution is BAN THEM, but hey why stop at primates? Why not ban reptiles, I've seen enough examples on here of people that haven't a clue about keeping them to justify it as much as a primate ban. Heck what dogs? 100's each week dumped on the streets, 1000's over the year destroyed. Why not ban the keeping of those too? It would certainly stop animal cruelty 100% 

Now you see where I'm coming from when people push to ban something that they themeselves do not keep or do not wish to keep?

It's a dangerous slope to be on when fellow animal keepers push to get other animal groups banned from private ownership.

There's NOTHING wrong with any of us pushing for increased standards of animal wellfare but to wanting blanket bans will just lead to tears for ALL OF US.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2008)

Scott W said:


> I can't really see why primates warrant 'extra' protection than any other animal, they all deserve the same level of care and well being.
> 
> Yes primates have many criterea that make them unsuitable for a large number of people but so do many dogs. Yet I don't see a rally from anyone trying to ban or license dog ownership.
> 
> ...


Well said Scott ! 

I agree about the dogs they are destroyed at an alarming rate yet these anti muppets think primates or reptiles are there first priority :crazy:
its ludicrass .this country is being ruined by these types of inbred people and there pathetic ideas about rights !


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Halle - 'frickin' -lujah well said Scott and Steve!!

This is exactly what l am trying to say elsewhere.

That every keeper who maintains a collection of exotics, domestic exotics or domestics has the right to keep and maintain as long as their husbandry and their ownership is spot on.

I don't like it anymore than any others do with the termination of dogs, cats or any other animal, as the numbers are in the UK.

But keepers need to support each other, irrelevant to their own personal beliefs on whether they would/should/could keep this species or that species.

Not all primate keepers agree with reptiles being kept, and vice versa, and the list amongst the communities who keep that but not this is very long indeed - the end result is we do not have to worry about the antis nor the Government ceasing our freedom to keep - it will be us who will destroy ourselves.

The codes of practice are there or will be there in an attempt to filter out the bad keepers - how successful that will be, who knows how they will police it? But if keepers are aware of what the conditions for correct animal welfare are, then perhaps it will come down to self correction?

R


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## irwin (Jan 22, 2008)

oh my god you always get some ritious idiot blow ther trumpet and i bet they dont even know what they are talking about 

does he even keep any exotics himself

rory is not a so called animal dealer people go to him to help them sell there unwanted stock 

thankyou scott and steve i just wish there was more people out there like you and not single minded people that just post who really dont have a f...... glue


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I iz confused, because as far as I was aware Rory, you have never personally kept primates yourself other than ones you are selling on behalf of clients, shouldn't someone with real experience with the animals be helping create/creating a Code of Practice?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi, 

TSKA is working alongside primate keepers of all species across the UK on a suggested code of practice for private primate keepers.

The group numbers some 15 UK keepers, and TSKA are co-ordinating their responses into a COP. I am also working with the approval of other parties and we will be working alongside many keepers that work with specialised species.

Just because we are sellers Y/G, does not mean that we do not also have the right to campaign for better conditions for primates. The COP for primates is important to us as it is important to our clients.

Just because l have not owned primates directly, does not mean as a mammal keeper that l do not possess common sense on how a code should be written and what is should contain.

We have some 60 primate keeper clients and not all of them wanted to be involved with the original creation. However once our suggested code is complete, we will be sending out a survey to our clients to receive their feedback.

So in many respects we are in fact working with 'experienced keepers as we always have done'.

There is absolutely no guarantee that this COP will be received nor accepted, however, as said, l am campaigning for primate keepers' rights of ownership, so this was in fact the next step.

How do you all think the codes of practice are to be written up and by whom?

Let us look at reptiles, by far the most complex series of COP's to be written or even attempted to be written. I am not assisting on those, nor do l intend to, but there may well come a time when there will be requested assistance for their creation. How many reptile keepers from the private side will be willing to give up their time to help?

It is much easier to say you will help, but when the shove comes, many people really can not be bothered.

Edward raised the issue about animals 'dealers', he failed to also raise the issue that there are primate keepers out there that do not want a primate code of practice, nor are they really bothered whether one ever appears.

Despite what many people think about myself and the profession l hold, l do actually care about keepers of primates, and every other animal species held, and if codes of practice are needed to ensure the continuation of keeping a species, then yes l will assist where ever l can. But l do want to see the species held in the optimum conditions, and this is no different to how genuinely responsible keepers of this species maintain them now and want them to be kept in the future.

Am l protecting my business also, yes, and why should l not?

If a reptile retailers life business was on the edge, would they too not want to assist in ensuring their business had a future? I am no different.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Not sure why your mates reply which was prior to your post, replying to mine was deleted or removed, odd that 

But basically, the way I see it is, if you haven't kept the animals, then how can you know what is best for them?

Would you, without any lessons or training from an instructor, but having been told how to indicate, accelerate and change gear etc, drive a car?

I think that maybe people aren't 'willing' to give up their time to write up the Codes of Practice because they don't have any relative experience?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi Again, 

In response to your line, l have and can only provide three lines from my previous response.

"But basically, the way I see it is, if you haven't kept the animals, then how can you know what is best for them?"


TSKA is working alongside primate keepers of all species across the UK on a suggested code of practice for private primate keepers.

The group numbers some 15 UK keepers, and TSKA are co-ordinating their responses into a COP. I am also working with the approval of other parties and we will be working alongside many keepers that work with specialised species.

So in many respects we are in fact working with 'experienced keepers as we always have done'

Relevant experience would be one issue only, but basically keepers are not willing and those that are, are looking into the codes of practice. But it is due to lack of support from the reptile keeping community of private keepers that the codes may be taking such a long time to actually achieve any real headway. A small team can not do everything at once, and at times, l feel their motivation is just as lacking as the keepers.

R


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

it's all very well and good slating rory for not personally keeping primates, but who else would take it upon themselves to sort the COP out? 

At the very least we know that rory and nerys both care about their animals and will not take anything on that they don't have the time, knowledge, space or conditions for.

We also know that like the majority of us they want the best for the animals, not just the keepers. It would be very easy for someone who keeps primates in a cage in the living room to come up n say 'this is fine' we know with TSKA they are consulting real primate keepers who look after their animals well. To build up the COP so that it will benefit the primates, and hopefully be a step towards stopping the substitute child/parrot cage situation.

As it is without the COP I fear that primates will be facing in an outright ban in private homes, due to the numpties who think a parrot cage,single living etc are all suitable conditions. The COP Should ensure that dedicated primate keepers are able to maintain their collections, whilst weeding out people who, haven't done the research, nor have the conditions for the animal.


To the poster at the bottom of page one. A dealer to my mind is someone who ships in large amounts of animals, to then sell on for profit with no follow up care nor basic advice....TSKA don't do this, they work with 'clients' yes clients not customers, to help them sell their animals to knowledgeable homes. Which is a damn sight more than can be said of some bloody pet shops with 'cute' monkeys i nthe window...what kind of a message does that send out!? TSKA request that prospective owners can prove that they are knowledgeable on their chosen species before any cash and animals are handed over...

oh no you're right what a terrible job they must be doing. they care about the welfare of the animals they sell on, not just pound signs. How many dealers can that be said about? how many make sure the prospective owners know their stuff before selling them on?? not many, as the majority of their stock gets put into pet shops..now yes some are knowlegeable and make sure they know about the animals they keep. But it's very easy to say 'i've got a 30ft aviary in the garden ready for it' but what they have in reality is alot different. TSKA actually inspect the primates living conditions to make sure it will be suitable. Thats above n beyond the call of duty for a dealer don't you think?


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

The way I view it is I would far prefer for PRO keepers who have no personal hands on experience dealing with the COP's than ANTI keepers who wouldn't know a monkey from a cat writing them.

Rory and Nerys work hard behind the lines and I know of several occasions where Rory has been up at stupid o'clock (despite being told his health is at risk with the stress levels naughty Rory!) trying to get his head around ways to better equip keepers in the UK to fight the anti keepers being able to say what we can and can't keep.

Our rights to keep whatever we so choose in the correct environment are greatly at risk if the COP's are not viewed by those with an interest in putting the exotics hobby and industry in the right direction.

With regard to post about "I don't like Rory or his partner" - come on - this is an adult forum with open adult discussions. My 5 year old can hold a sensible conversation with people she doesn't like without being pedantic about it. 

I don't keep primates - does that give me less right that anyone else to be able to say they should be entitled to correct housing and care? No, it should give me more right because I have the animals' best interests in my mind when I say what I would like to see in the COP's. Better that than someone saying "mmm, primates need a lot ofcare, lets just ban them"


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Not really no, I think your getting wholesaler and dealer mixed up, I know plenty of dealers (granted they aren't mammalian dealers) who are not just after the cash, but in all fairness, anyone selling animals with a client base system as TSKA does is doing it for money, its that simple, that might not be the sole motivating factor, but they are providing a service which they charge for.

I am not talking about the husbandry of Rory/Nerys, as there are many things I disagree with for that, I am talking about how can somebody who has no 'real' experience expect to write up a document that dictates how people should keep their animals?

I for one wouldn't write one, but thats not because I am lazy or I don't care about animal welfare, it's because I don't have any personal experience in keeping them, so I would not feel 'qualified' to write up a document that real keepers of the animals would refer to, it's great that it's getting checked over by real primate keepers, but on the other hand, if TSKA was so passionate about it and Rory didn't want to champion himself as a crusader for animal rights, surely Rory/TSKA could think of a way to get the clients who they sell for to at least draft the document?


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

he's already said some people didn't want to be involved.

it's quite simple, some people simply cant be bothered to write a document of this calibre.

I'm with brit i'd rather it be written by knowledgeable (fair enough not with primates) PRO Keepers, than anti's who will simply say ban them all. It's not like they haven't researched primates, they have and continue to do so they just don't keep them.

Theres lots of animals i've researched and simply adore but i know i couldnt offer them exactley what they need so i dont keep them. unfortunately not everyone is of the same mind set and if they have the cash will go out and buy whatever they want and to hell with the consequences.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Roy - Rory may not have kept primates personally but do you not think after some 15 years plus in the industry that he will have picked up a vast amount of knowledge from the clients he works with?

Say for instance you had never kept a certain specie of spider - would you not be better qualified to write the COP's for spiders in general than some guy who hates the thoughts of things being kept captively and who had possibly never seen an exotic spider anywhere but on TV?

The people in line to write and review the COP's are those who wish to remove many animals fromt he homes of people like you and me - would you not prefer to support the people who are fighting hard to make things better for us than to sit back and let it ride whilst our rights to house captive animals is slowly being drained?


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

No, not really, I have known mechanics, engineers, policemen and a surgeon all my life, I haven't picked up a vast amount of knowledge, definitely not enough to be dictating to real practicioners of the above skills/trades how they should do their jobs.

No I wouldn't, I would write COP's for spiders that I have kept but that would only be as a joint effort from the many far more experienced owners/breeders/researchers and scientists I know in that field, a small/medium or large amount of knowledge with 'most' species doesn't mean that someone is qualified or experienced enough to write a blanket COP for all species that come under a certain genus.

I am not disputing that there are certain organisations and entities that are trying to remove peoples rights to keep exotic animals, but at the end of the day, people have been trying to ban dogs for how many years, yet my lovely big Dobermann is sitting on the couch happy as anything and perfectly legal.

Without the experience the work shouldn't be undertaken, its like you wiring a house because your mate of 15 years is an electrician, would you be happy to find out the bloke/woman you just paid £100's to rewire your house doesn't have any valid experience, he/she is just bluffing it on secondhand knowledge?


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

that's completely different tho roy. Rory and nerys have researched thoroughly, looked into requirements of different species, visited many primate keepers,asked them questions, interacted with the animals, asked about diet care etc etc

Wiring your house coz ur mate of 15 years is an electrician is completely different, for a start they wouldnt be walked through it in such in depth detail.

Also just because someone owns a primate doesnt mean they know more than someone who doesnt. Using a recent example from the forum...a single marmosett being kept in a parrot cage in the living room,taken away from its mother at 6? weeks.... are you telling me that owner knows more about a primates needs than rory and nerys who actually give a damn about the animals and what they need? If so by that reasoning if you own an animal you automatically know more n should be writing the COP ....n then god help the primates!

I don't see whyyou seem to have such a problem with Rory tbh, he's doing something most people probably couldnt be ar%*d doing, and he's not going in blind like you would if you were copying an electrician friend. He's also not preaching to current primate keepers, he's asking for their advice and input
so that the COP are spot on...so the surgeon/engineer point is a little lost on me tbh.


also whats CABF? been wondering


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

If you don't know I don't see the point in mentioning it 

Also, I am obviously not saying that, I am talking about REAL experienced keepers, first hand experience from people who have been keeping primates happy and healthy for years.

If they knew what was really good for the animals why would lactose intolerant animals be fed cottage cheese?

I don't have a personal problem, people need to realise that because somebody disagrees with an opinion or viewpoint they are NOT actually attacking the person in question, if/when I have a problem with Rory he will know about it and it will be resolved offline 

Basically, questions and opinions can't be expected to replace real experience.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Have to agree with Katie  

If you have a valid interest in a certain thing - you will strive to learn about it. My husband is a mechanic - I can diagnose correctly a majority of mechanical and electrical problems for our customers because I have listened, read, researched and learnt. the same way as Rory has spent 15+ years dealing with keepers and breeders of exotics such as primates. He is an intelligent man with a real thirst for knowledge so he will natrually strive to absorb all he can from the people he has worked alongside during his time running TSKA.

Same with Nerys - she has qualifications in some really bizarre things that many people don't know about and is a natural learner who likes to be able to pull random info out of the hat just because she can.

This is the type of person who learns quickly and is able to put the iformation they pick up to good use.

Rory would not look into the COP's if he felt he couldn't input something that would offer a strong level of welfare for the animals concerned just as you would not attempt to write a COP on a species you had no hands on experience of without the support network of experienced and knowledgable keepers who could aid you were necessary.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Yay for Rory


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Don't be sacrastic with me you git hehe 

Seriously Roy, I would much prefer that people who were pro keeping wrote and aided int eh writing of the COP's - surely that makes more sense???

Primate keepers seem to be very much in the background as the hobby goes, not many will want the publicity of being keepers due to the antics of anti keepers and such and it may be better all round if knowledgeable non primate keepers were on the COP writing side so they could create an unbiased view of how exotics needs for socialisiation and enrichment came before keepers needs to save money and such things 

(I am in NO way saying this is what many primate keepers do BTW, just using it as an example )


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

At the risk of yet again being torn to assunder.

I have two relatively important questions.

1] Could it be suggested that in fact of all the species maintained in exotic captive collections that the primate is in fact more of a risk in so far as suffering from mental stresses?

There are those that can argue that l am purely suggesting those who keep single primates, and whilst in many respects 70% of single primates kept as singles are more likely to develop neurological problems than those living in groups or social structures. But can we look at the possibility that even those living in pairs could possibly suffer from mental anguish?

Hence the topic of pyschological wellbeing should be seriously considered in the code. This should not be too far to understand for in fact the code does concentrate on this subject alone as l have discussed before:

*The need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease
*
And if we look at the act itself for animal welfare then we can raise this from the legislation:

*'Protect your animal from fear and distress to avoid mental suffering'*

So one would have to consider all possibilities as to what could/would cause mental suffering.

And l think that those in positions of opposition must be looking very seriously at this fine point.

2] Enforcing - how on earth does the Government expect to effectively police not just this code, but any code for that matter?

The only way the authorities could enforce the cop's to keepers would be to have control of what keepers are maintaining and for this to be done correctly, then there would have to be records and administrations.

The only way forwards l could see from the primate keepers' point of future would be the introduction of a supporting licence to that of the current DWAL. The species which have been lifted from the licence in October would have to be scheduled to a new licence, which would take into account the species now listed as non dangerous but also the inclusion of the marmoset species.

This is the only way that one could ensure regular health inspections of the premises and of course this way, although seen as an enormous pain by those whom keep primates, but would highlight to those in authority that primate keepers are responsible and are genuinely concerned for their charges.

For years the pro side battled to attain the species removal and yes, eventually they did succeed, however in the case of primates, was this in reality the best move?

Yes l can be attacked for what l have written, but despite what many think, l am actually looking at this in an unbiased viewpoint. I may be a primate seller, but we do not sell as many primates as everyone thinks we do - some will say its the pricing structure we have, and whilst this 'may be' responsible - it will only be responsible for a relatively small percentage, the main reason is that we VET and we SCREEN potential buyers, and this is very off putting to many keepers.

What the UK needs and does not have is an actual private primate keepers association, now unlike reptiles whom have many societies and even a federation. Primates do not, not aimed specifically at the private sector, and this is what is causing all of the problems, they do not have a recognised voice and as such, who would be there to write a code of practice for them?

We may be looking at, as l said a suggested code of practice - but there is no guarantee that it will ever be read by those in authority, but it does not mean that you stop on that premise .... does it?

R


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