# Sales of monkeys



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Already put a bit about this in another post.

Was curious to ask why RFUK dont vet the sales of animals.
There is ads come up for marmosets that are a bit too young to be away from parents.

Most people that we know allow them to carry and learn parenting skills before moving on..

Please no more of this vendetta that if its not my way then its not correct.
We all know this is needed for them to go on and be good parents themselves.

Gum tree etc have stopped altogether
and other forums do vet the sales.

There would in some cases be valid reasons for them being removed at such an age but i dont believe this to be the case.

Even allowing the sales of breading hybrids.

Its like the story listed as apauling.
Wouldnt be too good for the forum another story and that they were bought from a good forum like this.

We could all make a we bit of an effort to prevent this.

Monitoring sales that are ethically wrong would be a good start.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

Who says the sale of hybrids is wrong

In someones eyes it would be wrong but in another ones it is fine

If that is the case dont advertise hybrid snakes ,cats ,dogs ,rabbits ,whatever other animals you can think off that are crossed

What makes the primate so special ,its not as if a common marmoset is crossed with a tamarin etc ,you do find these hybrids in the wild ,so what you are saying is all the hybrids should be hunted and killed because it is ethically wrong

I dont think hybrids are good thats not what i am saying ,i am saying whose right is it to say if it is good or bad


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

I personally feel that hybrisation is wrong in cats and snakes aswell as monkeys. Above all I think that buyers need to be made aware that what they are buying is a hybrid, I've said it before in the snake section I don't agree with terms that are made up to make it sound like it's own species or in snakes 'morphs' (eg. Jungle corn, to me it sounds like a morph of corn snake, it is infact a corn x king and they come with risks associated with kings.)
With monkeys that are marmoset hybrids you know they will be sold as 'marmosets', the next person who buys them puts them with commons, the babies look like commons, they get sold as commons. It doesn't take very long for hybrids to look like pure species and to be mis-sold. It would be very sad if it became impossible to get hold of pure animals. 

Especially in sales where they are such specialist animals, and not everyone can cater for their needs I do think that there should be some sort of 'standard', sellers should take more responsibilty to inform people of what is involved and if the buyer doesn't provide the information then someone should, or the ad. should be removed.

I made it sound kind of complicated :blush:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> Who says the sale of hybrids is wrong
> 
> In someones eyes it would be wrong but in another ones it is fine
> 
> ...


Its a personal thing. Myself, I'm not keen on hybridising anything - marmosets, snakes, macaws, etc. I prefer to keep species pure. 

As has been said by Em40, further along the line, the gene pool is diluted with a bit of this & a bit of that. If any of these 'mongrels' were to enter a conservation project by mistake, it could have greater consequences.

And of course there are morons who just create hybrids to sell to make a quick buck.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> Who says the sale of hybrids is wrong
> 
> In someones eyes it would be wrong but in another ones it is fine
> 
> ...


Its freedom of choice whether people breed or sell hybrids.
I just dont think as a keeper of pure species that it is correct.
Dont understand why they do it.
Allot started as they would have a spare male and female of different species and an empty enclosure.

Although more worrying is the fact that its getting done to try to breed back. Hybrid Geoffroy that looks like geof
Same with pencillata.
There are guys i know who do this that do state they are hybrid.
But there are others that sell them on to people with less knowledge to spot the difference.

So it can be a money gaining skam.

But more to my worry is that they are becoming more and more availiable.
True species will be hard to get hold of..
Look at argenttata argenttata.

A collegue of ours bought a trio ,(Geoffs)
Pair were moved to another and the male put with one of his females.

They had babies last week--4.
They were hybrid..

I cannot comment on any other animals as i dont know much.
Tend too have kept small primates as decided that a multitude of animals
We felt it was thinning between different kinds.
So we decided to concentrate on various species of small primate.
We have done for several years now.

Yes i do agree that they breed hybrids in the wild.

There are troops but few compaired to true species.
Thats why they are still termed of hybrid.
Except the weills marmoset which is if i remember is hybrid.
Or mixed species which is usually when they name them....

I do think that with the animals you named.
That the cross breeding of them has been done for a long time.

Hybrids from marms is still at the early stages that we could make an effort to help stop it..

But this is just my own opinion.
Not something i would make a crusade out of.
Maybe every 2 in 10 you talk to will stop..
But its there choice.

I certainly wouldnt think a mass kill would be the answer.
But the two hybrids we had handed in are implanted and will keep being
implanted to prevent breeding.

Seems to be the human thing.
Fall in love with an animal.
Then try and create something completely different.

KEEP SPECIES PURE.
DISCOURAGE THE SELLING AND BREEDING OF HYBRIDS.:bash:


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

I agree with the original post in the manner that i think the sale of ANY species of animal sold on forums should be monitored, as you see so many idiots breeding for a quick buck and selling animals irresponsibly at wrong ages, bad conditions, with problems etc. 

Vetting sale posts could potentially put a stop to that but then again its not hard to lie about something on an advert really i.e. age or condition of animal before the actual sale, so i don't really see how it could be policed, unless there was a rating system or complaints regarding certain sellers were taken more seriously later on, but as far as i am aware there is already a rating system, and i am sure anyone who might have had official complaint/s made against them would have had the right to post in the for sale section removed (or i would hope so). 

Even then, would they not just re-advertise under a different username unless banned?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I totally agree with you on the vetting of adverts!

What upsets me with RFUK classifieds in this rule of not allowing to post unless you wish to buy what is being offered for sale.

There are a lot of people on this forum who have the knowledge and experience to know when sellersare giving wrong information or selling an animal under age etc, yet they aren't allow to post on the thread advising possibly buyers that this may not really be a good seller or a good animal to buy.

On the basis that sellers on here aren't paying to advertise, I don't see any reason why we aren't allowed to criticise a seller for a bad practice and warn prospective buyers that they are taking a risk buying this animal.

To me the answer is either vet the sellers in the first place so only good breeders and sellers can sell or allow people with knowledge to post advising possible buyers that they should be wary of buying this animal.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

feorag said:


> I totally agree with you on the vetting of adverts!
> 
> What upsets me with RFUK classifieds in this rule of not allowing to post unless you wish to buy what is being offered for sale.
> 
> ...


 

I couldnt have put it better myself!!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I couldnt have put it better myself!!


Thing with this forum Shell is that there are lots we all agree on...

Hybrids are the individualls choice even though we know what it does too true species.

We all know that monkeys need to learn to be monkeys from parents before going on to be part of there own family troop.

But they are still advertised on here at an age to young to have achieved this.

This is a sell,
and not the animal put first...

We all let carry for a minimum of two births before even thinking about moving.

Well as a rule of thumb.

My missis and myself tend to let the troop decide..

But something does need to be done so as that problems arent started from buying from a forum that should be about the interest of the species(whatever it is) and not about a place for people to sell unwanted stock....

Or sell to get money to put toward summit else...

But this is my opinion.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

so much for the free market economy eh?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

HABU said:


> so much for the free market economy eh?


Wish i was educated enough to understand this comment...

Just a thick Scottish old guy..:lol2:

Please educate me:bash:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Wish i was educated enough to understand this comment...
> 
> Just a thick Scottish old guy..:lol2:
> 
> Please educate me:bash:


 
do you buy primates? sell primates?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

HABU said:


> do you buy primates? sell primates?


Yes ive bought primates...
Could count on one hand any weve sold in all our years of keeping.



Tend to exchange with other colegues...

Have never advertised to sell in my life...
We keep in family troops.

Why do you ask?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Yes ive bought primates...
> Could count on one hand any weve sold in all our years of keeping.
> 
> 
> ...


 people shouldn't sell primates or many other things too young...

but one could... as they often do... advertise animals early... just to have buyers lined up when the puppy or whatever is ready... some advertise before things are born even and take deposits...

but the world will always have people that "jump the gun"... sell things before they are quite ready...

i would think that a primate breeder would have some idea what they are doing and only sell when the animals are ready...

who determines what is too young anyway?... are breeders all in agreement as to what is the proper age or is it arguable?... breeders don't all agree?

and why is it a third party's business??

don't like something?... don't do it... don't buy it... don't sell it...

not much one can do about people who have percieved bad practices... they will find a way to sell things... vetting ads won't work... it may make someone feel good... but a seller will sell albeit somewhere else... but the deal will be made...

legally, what can be done?... have monkey laws?... have a department of monkeys to scan all ads and breeders to make sure a monkey is old enough?

hybrids?

they're weird yes... not for me at all... but they will be created and sold...

hybrids are no different from morphs to me... trying to create something that really doesn't exist in nature...

people can't agree what age puppies should be sold let alone monkeys i'd imagine...

educate people all you can i guesss is the option i suppose...

basically a private transaction is private... rarely should a third party interfere...

say you want to sell a single fork... to a buyer with a fork set that doesn't match... should the fork police come in and forbid the seller from selling to a guy because it doesn't fit into his fork set nicely?

too many people have mis-matched silverware... this must end... vet the ads for single forks and make sure the buyer has a matching set i say!:lol2:

anyway... why would you be concerned about what other people do?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

habu said:


> people shouldn't sell primates or many other things too young...
> 
> But one could... As they often do... Advertise animals early... Just to have buyers lined up when the puppy or whatever is ready... Some advertise before things are born even and take deposits...
> 
> ...


 
Because we care!!!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Thats easy.
Im concerned for the animal sold too young.

Concerned about future true species


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Thats easy.
> Im concerned for the animal sold too young.
> 
> Concerned about future true species


 
that's all good... concern is good...

but the species are wild animals... their future lies in the wild and the preservation of habitats... with zoos and conservation efforts... not hopefully with private breeders selling "pets"... if the latter is true then the species are pretty much doomed...

animals on the market are products... that's just the way it is...


bush meat... habitat loss... those i would think impacts the animals more than a few private breeders or some pets...: victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Because we care!!!


 
what else do you "care" about?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

It lies in the wild.
Some species are less in wild than private...
Conserving species should be with private keepers as well.

Zoos do use some private keepers...

Really dont understand where your coming from.
Like i said before..
Daft old scottish guy..
I use my fingers to eat so dont need the missing fork...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> It lies in the wild.
> Some species are less in wild than private...
> Conserving species should be with private keepers as well.
> 
> ...


 

maybe develop a body that oversees private breeders... certifies them... inspects them... endorses the ones "doing it right"?

a non-profit group maybe?

then you could push for people to only buy from certified breeders...

like car mechanics... there are mechanics and their are factory certified mechanics... who are trained to do things right...

then the private breeders are either certified by a prestigious group or just yahoos out there... the certification would be a selling point... and would represent quality and proper procedures...

we have this here in the states for pet shops... pijac...

buy the best... buy your monkey from a certified breeder eh?

is there a self-governing body that oversees primate breeding? keeps track of bloodlines... breeding?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Only with A10.
And thats not thorough enough..


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

HABU said:


> anyway... why would you be concerned about what other people do?


I think people are concerned about the ones who do it wrongly, both buying and selling, because these are the people who pick up the aftermath, such as a monkey taken away from it's mother at too young an age and basically not knowing it's a monkey! 

They are the ones who take in the animals fed a poor diet because the breeder hasn't advised the buyer correctly, or the ones a buyer bought because they wanted a 'baby' not an animal so they've totally humanised the animal etc etc


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feorag said:


> I think people are concerned about the ones who do it wrongly, both buying and selling, because these are the people who pick up the aftermath, such as a monkey taken away from it's mother at too young an age and basically not knowing it's a monkey!
> 
> They are the ones who take in the animals fed a poor diet because the breeder hasn't advised the buyer correctly, or the ones a buyer bought because they wanted a 'baby' not an animal so they've totally humanised the animal etc etc


 
they make monkey keepers pick up after other people!

shocking...

i have dogs but never have to deal with other people's dog issues... remind me to never get a monkey... it would be hard enough taking care of a primate let alone having to fix other people's mistakes... pick up the aftermath...

i have a neighbor who half starves his dogs... doesn't affect me in the least... i deal only with my dogs... too bad it isn't that way for monkeys...

all this complaining will only make primate keeping look bad for everyone... and no one will be allowed to keep anything...

i guess you need a permit there or something to keep a primate... so aren't keepers inspected like in DWA?


what other people do with their animal is not of much concern to me...

i can only control what i do... not control what others do...


ban primates and the problem is solved... and that's how a lawmaker would approach the problem...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> what else do you "care" about?


What does that mean???


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> they make monkey keepers pick up after other people!
> 
> shocking...
> 
> ...


The bits highlighted in bold say a lot! How sad that you do not care for other animals that are not in your care. What hope is there for your neighbour's poor half-starved dogs if no-one will stand up for them? You turning a blind eye to animal suffering is a terrible shame! How ignorant of you. What would you do if you walked past an animal that had been run over on the road? Leave it there to suffer, as it isn't your animal?

Peter, I take it you've never had the pleasure of seeing Habu's posts before. He can talk some sense, but that is often overshadowed by sarcasm & bullsh*t.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

HABU said:


> they make monkey keepers pick up after other people!...


The thing is Habu, these people aren't MADE to pick up after other people - they choose to do it because they love monkeys and care when they see one suffering.

My point wasn't just about monkeys though - it was about all animals! I'm one of the people who picks up after cat people's mistakes. So those of us who care about animals will do our utmost to help when we see those animals not being looked after properly, which is why we try to stop indiscriminate breeders who breed purely for money and basically don't give a sh*t about the homes those kittens/puppies/cubs etc go to.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> The bits highlighted in bold say a lot! How sad that you do not care for other animals that are not in your care. What hope is there for your neighbour's poor half-starved dogs if no-one will stand up for them? You turning a blind eye to animal suffering is a terrible shame! How ignorant of you. What would you do if you walked past an animal that had been run over on the road? Leave it there to suffer, as it isn't your animal?
> 
> Peter, I take it you've never had the pleasure of seeing Habu's posts before. He can talk some sense, but that is often overshadowed by sarcasm & bullsh*t.


 
i enjoy people leaving me alone and staying out of my business unless i invite them in... i do unto others as i'd have them do unto me... i mind my own business and stay out of other people's business...

i long ago realized that i couldn't save the world... i'm no activist... i don't care what others do in their bedroom.. what they worship... what music they listen to... how they raise their kids... if their dogs are trained or not... whether they have a gun or argue with their wifes... i don't care if they do heroin or smoke crack... whether they work or not... if they give to charity or smoke...

i like people to stay out of my affairs and not tell me how i should do or not do... what i should or should not own ... what i should wear... or what animals i keep and how...

it would be a better world if people minded their own affairs and not thrust their beliefs and values onto others...

i believe in personal responsibility...

people who want the world to be as they want it are why we have so many laws and regulations... permits and inspections... big brother is watching us... they are big brother...

save your money and come to america... save our dogs, cats, snakes and lizards... squirrels and rabbits... show us how we should be... how we should do...

if something is blatent and in my face i will take action... but i won't go and peep in the windows... make people get certified to use a kitchen knife... call the cops if i see someone smoking indoors...


activism gets laws passed... many times very bad laws... all with the best of intentions...

if i had a sick goldfish there are people out there that would like to see me imprisoned if i didn't take it to the vet... lock me up if i put the goldfish down...

the same people that would ban fishing... the peta fanatics...


some people don't want leather shoes to be legal... where does it end?

big brother... or the nanny state?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feorag said:


> The thing is Habu, these people aren't MADE to pick up after other people - they choose to do it because they love monkeys and care when they see one suffering.
> 
> My point wasn't just about monkeys though - it was about all animals! I'm one of the people who picks up after cat people's mistakes. So those of us who care about animals will do our utmost to help when we see those animals not being looked after properly, which is why we try to stop indiscriminate breeders who breed purely for money and basically don't give a sh*t about the homes those kittens/puppies/cubs etc go to.


 









he doesn't do it purely for money?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> i enjoy people leaving me alone and staying out of my business unless i invite them in... i do unto others as i'd have them do unto me... i mind my own business and stay out of other people's business...
> 
> i long ago realized that i couldn't save the world... i'm no activist... i don't care what others do in their bedroom.. what they worship... what music they listen to... how they raise their kids... if their dogs are trained or not... whether they have a gun or argue with their wifes... i don't care if they do heroin or smoke crack... whether they work or not... if they give to charity or smoke...
> 
> ...


If everyone had your mindset, nothing would be done about the wrongs in the world. You've never thought about phoning the ASPCA about your neighbour's dogs?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> If everyone had your mindset, nothing would be done about the wrongs in the world. You've never thought about phoning the ASPCA about your neighbour's dogs?


 
yeah... they tell him to feed them...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> yeah... they tell him to feed them...


Then you keep ringing them until something is done! Failing that, your neighbour's dog's 'go missing' from the yard one night....


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Then you keep ringing them until something is done! Failing that, your neighbour's dog's 'go missing' from the yard one night....


 
that'll get you shot... and/or put in jail for trespassing... theft... breaking and entering... but then, the bullet may kill me so i won't have to worry about any jail time or a felony on my record or years in prison being big tony's bitch either...

my other neighbor won't wash his pickup truck?

should i steal it?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> that'll get you shot... and/or put in jail for trespassing... theft... breaking and entering... but then, the bullet may kill me so i won't have to worry about any jail time or a felony on my record or years in prison being big tony's bitch either...
> 
> my other neighbor won't wash his pickup truck?
> 
> should i steal it?


So just sit back & let the dogs suffer eh? :roll: A true animal lover wouldn't! I've had someone's pet rabbit taken from it's crap-ridden hutch while the 'owners' were out, snatched another rabbit from some kids on the park who were threatening to let dogs kill it, taken in stray animals, reported mistreated animals, argued with people who have no idea about how to look after their pets, etc etc etc. Should I have just sat back & smoked some more cannabis instead??? :bash:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> So just sit back & let the dogs suffer eh? :roll: A true animal lover wouldn't! I've had someone's pet rabbit taken from it's crap-ridden hutch while the 'owners' were out, snatched another rabbit from some kids on the park who were threatening to let dogs kill it, taken in stray animals, reported mistreated animals, argued with people who have no idea about how to look after their pets, etc etc etc. Should I have just sat back & smoked some more cannabis instead??? :bash:


 so i do something then what?

go to the next bad owner.. save them dogs?... then the next?... work my way across ohio... then indiana... all the way to california saving dogs?


be a crusader?

you have to be young... no way you could be over 30 with that brand of idealism...

you can't save the world... and besides... what if someone invaded your space... say steal your animals because they don't think keeping wild animals is humane?

how would you react?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> so i do something then what?
> 
> go to the next bad owner.. save them dogs?... then the next?... work my way across ohio... then indiana... all the way to california saving dogs?
> 
> ...


 
Of course one individual can't save the world, but every little helps.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Of course one individual can't save the world, but every little helps.


 
i used to believe that...

but came to realize that all i can do effectively is be an example...

like littering... i don't go out and try to clean up the world's litter... that's a fool's endeavor... but i don't have to litter...

i can't stop domestic violence... but i can be a good man and not violent to others...

i'm working on the man in the mirror... that's all i can do...

i treat my animals better than i treat myself... all i can be is an example.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

If you keep to yourself etc..

Then why are you discussing issues on a forum?

I couldnt walk by cruelty of any animal(although primates are our thing)

I would report with out any hesitation..

Im not thirty im nearly fifty..

If you have nothing practical to discuss or any input into what the post is about.

Then why not practise what you preach and keep yourself to yourself..

Althouugh i wouldnt expect americans to have anything constructive to say on the matter as thats where the root of cruelty to pets starts...

Pulling teeth,,dressing up..
Breeding to sell in mass production..

Every time you google any rare exotic it diverts you to the states...

And to think i got roped in with your first replys..

Thought you were concerned for welfare of animals...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> If you keep to yourself etc..
> 
> Then why are you discussing issues on a forum?
> 
> ...


 i care about lots of things... and i like discussing things...

so far what have you actually done to eradicate animal cruelty?

had any success?... that made a difference?

as for the comments about americans... that tells me a lot...

you talk about cruelty to animals... all you are going to do is draw attention to some things you don't agree with and get the public inflamed and then things get banned... 

people will hear of cruelty to monkeys by keepers and then the press will see that it's all broadcasted and sensationalized and then the politicians will get involved and then they'll just ban the things... to make people happy..

reptiles and many other critters are on shaky ground these days there... dogs being banned... DWA... loose snakes... crocs on doorsteps... monkeys being sold too young...

yeah, bring attention to how lame primate keepers are and they'll take them away... ban a few at first... make you get licenses... then just ban them altogether...

and dogs here... besides me, there is one other guy here who uses a leash on his dogs... everyone else let's them just run loose... none ever go to a vets... none get any shots... i see dead dogs on the railroad tracks all the time here... people just get a new dog when theirs gets hit by a train or car...

dogs walk around with big bald patches and sores... are sick and limping... my neighbors dogs... 

and you want me to see that their mangy mutts get enough to eat!

the authorities don't do anything... they come by once a year to round up all the loose dogs and the millions of cats roaming my trailer park just to keep the population down... then kill them...

and you want me to make sure that people feed their dogs...

i take very good care of my animals... that's all i can do...

and my being a yank has nothing to do with anything so you can keep that crap to your bigoted self sparky!


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

To some extent I agree, I wouldn't want animal rights activists coming and stealing my reptiles while I was out just because they didn't think they should be kept as pets... However a starving dog is quite a bit different, I would report a starving dog, it's illegal to allow a dog to starve. It's pretty different over here to over there, I think that more people do 'shout about' the animal cruelty and yes things get banned but_ generally _people agree with it (after a while) docking, declawing, descenting is a new one, more people will agree with the decission in time. 
I don't think there's much point shouting about the people dressing their monkeys up... it's not the end of the world if other needs are met, people dress dogs up and even if I think they look silly, if they feed them and walk them it's fine by me.
I do hope they don't shout too loud about the non-native animals though. I think it would be a good idea if someone set up a register to get 'certified' exotics. (Kind of like KC dogs.) All exotics, as they are all in danger of being banned shortly.
Sounds like a lot of hard work though. Would have to get the inbreeding right from the start unlike the KC, and no unhealthy traits.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

*"Saving just one animal won't make a difference to the world, but it will make *
*a world of difference to just that one animal."*


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I think that we have to remember that Britain and America are two totally different countries.Who can tell how we would react there if we haven`t lived there?

To get back to the original point I always used to want a monkey as a pet.My local petshop had chimps as for show.But now forty years on I realise that I could never have the time or resources for these sorts of animals.I am more than happy with a dog : victory:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

colinm said:


> I think that we have to remember that Britain and America are two totally different countries.Who can tell how we would react there if we haven`t lived there?
> 
> To get back to the original point I always used to want a monkey as a pet.My local petshop had chimps as for show.But now forty years on I realise that I could never have the time or resources for these sorts of animals.I am more than happy with a dog : victory:


 
Ive got a photo of me and my sister taken about 47 years ago in Blacklers in Liverpool. I am holding a squirrel monkey and shes holding a baby chimp, it makes me feel really guilty and sad even though I was a very young child


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> i care about lots of things... and i like discussing things...
> 
> so far what have you actually done to eradicate animal cruelty?
> 
> ...


You just aren't as compassionate as me, Peter, Shell, Feorag, & many others who've posted on this thread if your happy to care for your own pets but don't care about the welfare of your neighbours pets, stray animals, etc. Thats sad. Caring for your own animals isnt all you can do at all. You can do a lot to make a difference to the lives of other animals. 

Bringing bad primate keepers to the public's attention should be done, as otherwise how will new keepers know right from wrong? The public should know that primates must not be kept singly, must not have their canine teeth broken off, must not be treated as substitute babies by morons, must not be dressed up, must not be fed incorrect diets, etc etc. Yes there is a risk that some authorities may try to bring about a ban, but it is up to us responsible primate keepers to show society how it should be done!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

The words of Ella Wheeler Wilcox (who was an American) say it all for me.

I am the Voice of the Voiceless 
Through me the dumb shall speak 
Till the world's deaf ear be made to hear 
The wrongs of the wordless weak. 

Oh shame on the mothers of mortals 
Who do not stoop to teach 
Of the sorrow that lies in dear dumb eyes 
The sorrow that has no speech. 

From street, from cage, from kennel 
From stable and from zoo, the wail
of my tortured kin proclaims the sin 
Of the mighty against the frail. 

But I am my brother's keeper 
And I shall fight their fight 
And speak the word for beast and bird
Till the world shall set things right. 

And fortunately there are a lot of us in this world who will never stop trying to get things right for the neglected dumb animals who do not deserve their lot in life.


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## kodakira (Jul 11, 2008)

We are also very private people like you Habu

Don't interfere with anyone else's business, live our lives and let others live theirs etc etc

But when it comes to animal cruelty, I will interfere in their busines. Sorry but these animals have rights too and if the owner can't give them their rights then we will try to do it for them.

Best Wishes

Neil


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Hi*

Hi just a question do all the primate keepers have there animals DNA tested to make sure there animals are true species blood lines as just because it looks like a certain species there are no guarantees it is species specific or locality specific, if you have do you then pass on the paperwork from the tests to make sure sure there is no hybridising anfd people know what they have.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

carlo69 said:


> Hi just a question do all the primate keepers have there animals DNA tested to make sure there animals are true species blood lines as just because it looks like a certain species there are no guarantees it is species specific or locality specific, if you have do you then pass on the paperwork from the tests to make sure sure there is no hybridising anfd people know what they have.



No theres no dna test...
Most experianced keepers would spot a hybrid.
There are certain things that cannot be replaced .
And we tend to only deal with who we know and trust.
They tend to hit inexperianced.
Or involve middle man.
There are bells ringing if there are doupts...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

calling the authorities on your is a good way to get your house burned down... or your car messed up...

get your neighbors in trouble and they'll be after you for some payback...

then multiply that several times... calling the authorities on various people and you'll have to get out of town... you won't be safe...

risk the lives of your family over a dog... doesn't sound worth it at all...

they find out that you got them in trouble and you won't be safe in your front yard... 

a dog is not worth getting you or your family shot or made homeless...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> calling the authorities on your is a good way to get your house burned down... or your car messed up...
> 
> get your neighbors in trouble and they'll be after you for some payback...
> 
> ...


When you report things to the authorities, its done anonymously! Or is your neighbour a psychic hill-billy?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> When you report things to the authorities, its done anonymously!


 
yeah... people have ways of finding things out... it's a gamble...

but you know what keeps occuring to me is the fact that many, many people feel that keeping any primate or exotic for that matter is either ridiculous and/or inherantly cruel...

so monkey keepers in are being cruel no matter what they do...

many people believe it's better for a wild animal to live in the wild...


take a survey of the general public and ask whether keeping primates is wrong or cruel...


BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Call for ban on primates as pets


The Perils of Keeping Monkeys as Pets


AVMA testifies against keeping primates as pets - April 15, 2008


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> yeah... people have ways of finding things out... it's a gamble...
> 
> but you know what keeps occuring to me is the fact that many, many people feel that keeping any primate or exotic for that matter is either ridiculous and/or inherantly cruel...
> 
> ...


So just because theres a slim chance of Cletus down the road finding out who reported him for not feeding his dogs, you'll just leave them to suffer!

Many people & organisations here in the UK would like to ban the keeping of primates by private keepers. This is why us responsible keepers do such much on here, constantly repeat ourselves answering questions about newbies wanting to get a pet monkey, set examples to people who may get into primate keeping, try to correct people who do it wrong, etc etc. 

There is a famous primate sanctuary over here called Monkey World, & they want an end to people like Peter, Neil & me keeping primates. This is because of people who keep single pet monkeys in a parrot cage in their living room, which this sanctuary eventually rescues & has to rehabilitate. The fact is that private keepers actually have a better record of breeding species than zoological parks! That says something doesn't it?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> So just because theres a slim chance of Cletus down the road finding out who reported him for not feeding his dogs, you'll just leave them to suffer!
> 
> Many people & organisations here in the UK would like to ban the keeping of primates by private keepers. This is why us responsible keepers do such much on here, constantly repeat ourselves answering questions about newbies wanting to get a pet monkey, set examples to people who may get into primate keeping, try to correct people who do it wrong, etc etc.
> 
> There is a famous primate sanctuary over here called Monkey World, & they want an end to people like Peter, Neil & me keeping primates. This is because of people who keep single pet monkeys in a parrot cage in their living room, which this sanctuary eventually rescues & has to rehabilitate. The fact is that private keepers actually have a better record of breeding species than zoological parks! That says something doesn't it?


They actually have a new approach Colin.
Something about needing a licence to sell(zoo licence i think was mentioned)

And if you check the links you gave the newest is 2008.
4yrs ago..

Old news mate unless you have anything more current..???

With regard to primate keeping being banned it will never happen as theres far too much at stake.

They are starting to realise this and now want to try and get some controll over where they go..

Would be good as far as im concerned as it would help.

But the background money makers would still be there..
Black Market etc.

But i do hope there is some sort of change..

By the way HABU where do you suppose these are kept as us humans are distroying there home???


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> So just because theres a slim chance of Cletus down the road finding out who reported him for not feeding his dogs, you'll just leave them to suffer!
> 
> Many people & organisations here in the UK would like to ban the keeping of primates by private keepers. This is why us responsible keepers do such much on here, constantly repeat ourselves answering questions about newbies wanting to get a pet monkey, set examples to people who may get into primate keeping, try to correct people who do it wrong, etc etc.
> 
> There is a famous primate sanctuary over here called Monkey World, & they want an end to people like Peter, Neil & me keeping primates. This is because of people who keep single pet monkeys in a parrot cage in their living room, which this sanctuary eventually rescues & has to rehabilitate. The fact is that private keepers actually have a better record of breeding species than zoological parks! That says something doesn't it?


 i bet they breed better in the wild...:lol2:

the keeping of primates by private individuals days are numbered... all the stories in the press and the tv shows about primate keeping with monkeys being mistreated and things ripping people's faces off is all the public really sees... sensationalism moves the public and politicians... laws will eventually be passed... animal rights groups are active... 

i bet it's even hard to find a veterinarian who would be for the keeping of primates as pets... or zoos... or primate experts...

that's a lot to overcome...

drawing attention to bad keepers won't help much...

the general public addresses problems with a wide brush... they simply call for a total ban... happens all the time...

then there's all that news of animal smugglers...

doesn't seem to be trending very well the idea of private people having primates...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

The sick trade in monkey pets | The Sun |Features

Breeders 'sold sick monkey' | The Sun |News

Primate sanctuary decries monkey pets | KXAN.com

Fact and Fiction: Monkeys and Apes as Pets : The Humane Society of the United States


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## cardinalgrom (Aug 23, 2010)

poor little monkeys, at least they arnt in china being eaten in some rotten little takeaway!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

HABU said:


> The sick trade in monkey pets | The Sun |Features
> 
> Breeders 'sold sick monkey' | The Sun |News
> 
> ...


Nice one HABU.
Thats one story that is current...
Which we all had discussions on.
Rest are still out of date.
And they relate to the states..

Like i said earlier its where the root starts with regard to pet monkeys.

Every website is in america.

Unless you can show me any uk people who have pulled teeth etc to keep as a pet...

We do tend to react as a society to cruellty...

Not like yourself who wants to just feed his dog and mind his own buisiness.

We do of coarse need tighter rules.

But a ban over here will never happen.
Irrelevent to whos crusade it is...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> i bet they breed better in the wild...:lol2:
> 
> the keeping of primates by private individuals days are numbered... all the stories in the press and the tv shows about primate keeping with monkeys being mistreated and things ripping people's faces off is all the public really sees... sensationalism moves the public and politicians... laws will eventually be passed... animal rights groups are active...
> 
> ...





HABU said:


> The sick trade in monkey pets | The Sun |Features
> 
> Breeders 'sold sick monkey' | The Sun |News
> 
> ...


I dont believe that our days are numbered at all. Look at the disgusting 'sport' of bull fighting - there is a continual outcry about that but is it banned yet? No! 

It is a big part of your countries fault, what with the White-Fronted Capuchin in Friends, countless movies with friendly monkeys in, & that godawful documentary 'My Monkey baby', where idiotic yanks had monkeys as substitute babies because they were either bad parents to their own children, or were thick!

My exotic vet has no problem with private primate keeping. Many zoos have no problem with it, & some (such as some that Peter works with) actually exchange bloodlines with private keepers.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Films drive trend for keeping pet monkeys | World news | The Observer


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> Films drive trend for keeping pet monkeys | World news | The Observer


We already know this. 

The people who watch a movie featuring a monkey, & who then phone a primate sanctuary to ask where they can get one, how intelligent do you think these people really are??? Thats like ringing MavDonalds to ask where the nearest KFC is! These morons are the same type of numb-nut who buy puppies as xmas presents for their child, or who buy a snake because their friends will think they're cool, or who want a Dalmation because they've just watched 101 Dalmations on TV. There will always be these half-wits who need educating, hopefully BEFORE any animals are brought into it. Thats where WE come in!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

HABU why not spend some time googling a way to work up the courage to report the cruelty of the dogs.

Would make more sense than this point proving crusade that wont happen,
where are the films made.
FRIENDS FOR INSTANCE.
Start in your own back yard mate and maybe a difference will be made.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> HABU why not spend some time googling a way to work up the courage to report the cruelty of the dogs.
> 
> Would make more sense than this point proving crusade that wont happen,
> where are the films made.
> ...


 
haha!!

call the authorities on people who treat their dogs badly here?

oh where would i start!

the way dogs and things are kept here is the norm... i'm the wierdo who has well cared for animals... i'm the weirdo who walks his dogs on a leash... i'm the weirdo who doesn't let his dogs run loose... i'm the weirdo who takes his animals to the vets... who buys good food... who spends money on them... who teaches/trains them...

jeez!... i do what is effective... all my dogs are rescues... my newest pup was going to be killed by her owners... why?... because they were moving... so they were going to take it down the railroad tracks and bash it's brains in...

so i took it from them.. then took it to the vets...

courage?... you don't know me...

i don't have to work up courage my friend for anything... but i do have the sense to know that i can't change things or people... all i can do is take care of me and mine... i learned that a long time ago...


my backyard is fine... it's full of happy dogs... i have no business in my neighbors back yards... they stay out of mine and i stay out of theirs...

if the dogs are taken these folks will just get new ones... dogs run around all over the place here... just find a pup and take it home... no one buys dogs here hardly...


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> No theres no dna test...
> Most experianced keepers would spot a hybrid.
> There are certain things that cannot be replaced .
> And we tend to only deal with who we know and trust.
> ...


I am sure that is true but I have heard of zoos having to rethink ther breeding lines because of mistakes that weren't picked up on till DNA tests were done so maybe it would be agood idea to have a DNA database just to be sure for those people who want to keep the bloodlines true, just a thought


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

carlo69 said:


> I am sure that is true but I have heard of zoos having to rethink ther breeding lines because of mistakes that weren't picked up on till DNA tests were done so maybe it would be agood idea to have a DNA database just to be sure for those people who want to keep the bloodlines true, just a thought


Yea have heard similiar.
But not hyrid breeding.
Lack of stud book and related pairs made.

Theres a few at collegues that must remain implanted
due to studbook controll.

Records not thoruogh enough.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

feorag said:


> I totally agree with you on the vetting of adverts!
> 
> What upsets me with RFUK classifieds in this rule of not allowing to post unless you wish to buy what is being offered for sale.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to say i actually LOVE this comment and couldnt agree more! :2thumb:


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Jamiioo said:


> Just wanted to say i actually LOVE this comment and couldnt agree more! :2thumb:


Yep I got told off today for pointing out the advert was a scam.fortunately its been locked.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

colinm said:


> Yep I got told off today for pointing out the advert was a scam.fortunately its been locked.


When i checked back today everything was gone so i have no idea what went on after i posted my comment on that sales thread. That was just one of many for sale threads why i agree with Feorags post though!


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## carlo69 (Apr 12, 2007)

feorag said:


> I totally agree with you on the vetting of adverts!
> 
> What upsets me with RFUK classifieds in this rule of not allowing to post unless you wish to buy what is being offered for sale.
> 
> ...


The problem with letting people comment is that same old story you end up with people making stupid comments on stuff they know nothing about ,just because someone thinks they know what they are on about doesn't make them an authority on it , so in my opinion if you are not sure about something you go and ask someone who does know or you do your homework on the subject or you ask a mod too look into it. instead of like i have had on numerous occasions people making uninformed comments that drive you round the bend. :devil: sorry rant over:2thumb:


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