# Ceasar Milan kicking dogs!



## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Says it all really...

YouTube - Cesar Millan kicking dogs


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## carter2011 (Feb 4, 2011)

tequila drinkin sombrero wearing little n*bhead 

fair enough his methods work but ...


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

His methods only work, because he instills fear into those dogs. I truly hate him!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

If he kicked my dog I would stamp on him:devil:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Amalthea said:


> His methods only work, because he instills fear into those dogs. I truly hate him!


Very true hun! I detest him too, I'd enjoy giving him a kicking!


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

i seen this on your fb and copyed it to mine truly shocking x


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

I'd like to kick him in the groin... with a pair of steel-toed boots... maybe with added spikes...


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## Shadowz (Aug 6, 2008)

vile little bully - cant stand him - makes me sick. 
the reaction from the dogs simply say it all.
But then he is no dog trainer etc - he has no qualifications - he is simply nothing more then a television entertainer. 
Dog whisperer certainly Not - The Dog Torturer Yes


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

Evil wee :censor: he needs a good boot in the nuts.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...

he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...

it's not abuse...

he's not like you people with the violence... and steel toed boots...

i'd love to see some of your goofy dogs... i bet they don't listen at all...


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## Charlibob (Jun 21, 2008)

HABU said:


> ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...
> 
> he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...
> 
> ...


If you think kicking a dog to get its attention is normal maybe you need to rethink owning them :devil:

I don't have any dogs right now as I have my cats instead (dogs take up way too much time!) but had plenty growing up and they all listened perfectly fine. My parents currently have a dog now and hes perfect, he listens to everything they say (in fact I only visit a couple of times a year so have only met him a hand full times yet he'll listen to me and anyone else that visits as he's been well trained!) and is very well behaved all without ever laying a finger on him, actually hes treated more like a human!

Really can't stand Ceasar Milan at all :bash:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Charlibob said:


> If you think kicking a dog to get its attention is normal maybe you need to rethink owning them :devil:
> 
> I don't have any dogs right now as I have my cats instead (dogs take up way too much time!) but had plenty growing up and they all listened perfectly fine. My parents currently have a dog now and hes perfect, he listens to everything they say (in fact I only visit a couple of times a year so have only met him a hand full times yet he'll listen to me and anyone else that visits as he's been well trained!) and is very well behaved all without ever laying a finger on him, actually hes treated more like a human!
> 
> Really can't stand Ceasar Milan at all :bash:


 
that's kicking?

kicking a dog would kill it...

how many has he killed?... how many were injured?

how do you snap a dog out of a zone and get it's attention?

i always gave mine a light tap with the leash on the hind end... oh, but that would be beating a dog... a hug is strangling a dog...

there's a huge difference between tapping a dog and kicking one... ceasar just taps the dogs to get their attention... nothing more...


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

It is almost impossible to put any force behind a 'kick' done at that angle.

Very sensationalist you tube vid in my opinion.

How many of the dogs that he trains do you see cowering away from him next time he meets them? :lol2:

And before I get flamed as being a pure supporter ... I don't agree 100% with all his theories but I do think he actually has a fairly common sense approach to sorting out problems.


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## Shadowz (Aug 6, 2008)

The dogs reaction says it all - thats not just getting attention - thats fear and pain.
In this day and age there is no reason to train with fear , pain and violence when there is so many positive training methods out there. 

And to your last question - He has hurt dogs , dogs have been seriously injured - there is law suits against this man.

I pity your dogs to be honest - why do you have to resort to violence and hitting to get your dogs attention - sound like you took the easy way instead of training them right - yes violence will have quicker effect as the dogs will fear you ( lets hope one of them dont snap in the end and turn on you )


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

Shadowz said:


> The dogs reaction says it all - thats not just getting attention - thats fear and pain.
> In this day and age there is no reason to train with fear , pain and violence when there is so many positive training methods out there.
> 
> And to your last question - He has hurt dogs , dogs have been seriously injured - there is law suits against this man.
> ...


who me?


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## Shadowz (Aug 6, 2008)

No the one who felt the need to swipe them with the lead to get their attention


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

quizicalkat said:


> It is almost impossible to put any force behind a 'kick' done at that angle.
> 
> Very sensationalist you tube vid in my opinion.
> 
> ...


 
I went to see him live last year and he seems to attract dogs as they all wanted to be with him and not one showed any fear. I dont agree with all his ways but some of the things he does are excellent


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Shadowz said:


> No the one who felt the need to swipe them with the lead to get their attention


like tapping on someone's shoulder...

fear and pain?... try surprise...


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

Shadowz said:


> No the one who felt the need to swipe them with the lead to get their attention


Ah right : victory:



Shell195 said:


> I went to see him live last year and he seems to attract dogs as they all wanted to be with him and not one showed any fear. I dont agree with all his ways but some of the things he does are excellent


I agree he had some sort of charissma that both the people and dogs responded to. I was quite amazed really.

I use a composite of many different training methods but I can guarentee you that I am 'pack leader' (says she with one dog snoring contentedly in his basket and another snoozing next to her)


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Shadowz said:


> The dogs reaction says it all - thats not just getting attention - thats fear and pain.
> In this day and age there is no reason to train with fear , pain and violence when there is so many positive training methods out there.
> 
> And to your last question - He has hurt dogs , dogs have been seriously injured - there is law suits against this man.
> ...


 
show me the lawsuits?

i found one... someone wanting to get paid in sue-happy california...

Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan Sued For Dog Injury - Dogs - Dog Pictures

i never use violence on a dog... touching a dog is violence?

you may have mental problems if you think a tap is violence...


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

That video is a load of crap, editing works both ways and they have exploited that. Dogs DO understand dominance, the wolf instincts are still there, I have enough experience with dominant breeds to say this with conviction.

I don't much like CM's training methods, but then I don't trust anything on TV, far too much is cut out or edited, you never get a true view of what is happening.

Some dogs need a firm hand, theres no excuse for booting one, but as someone else has said a tap from that angle has very very little force behind it, and in every case you do need to get the dogs attention to correct any bad behaviour. 

I am a firm advocate of the 'alpha' human, not becasue of CM but through my own research and experience. I think nothing of alpha rolling and pinning a dog when needed and I have so far used this method with Dobie's, labs, akitas and even illegal pitbull crosses (not mine but rasied from a pup for a friend).


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

LOS ANGELES (AP) — A television producer is suing dog trainer Cesar Millan, star of TV's _The Dog Whisperer,_ claiming that his Labrador retriever was injured at Millan's training facility after being suffocated by a choke collar and forced to run on a treadmill. 
In a lawsuit filed Thursday in Superior Court, _8 Simple Rules_ producer Flody Suarez says he took 5-year-old Gator to the Dog Psychology Center on Feb. 27 to deal with fears of other dogs and strangers. 
Hours after dropping the dog off at the facility, Suarez claimed a worker called to inform him the animal had been rushed to a veterinarian. He later found the dog "bleeding from his mouth and nose, in an oxygen tent gasping for breath and with severe bruising to his back inner thighs," the lawsuit claims. 
The facility's workers allegedly placed a choke collar on the dog, pulled him onto a treadmill and forced him to "overwork." Suarez says he spent at least $25,000 on medical bills and the dog must undergo more surgeries for damage to his esophagus. 
A call to the Dog Psychology Center, also named as a defendant, was not immediately returned. A spokesman for National Geographic Channel, which airs Millan's show, declined comment. 
"As of this time, the National Geographic Channel has not been served with either lawsuit, and we do not comment on pending litigation," said Russell Howard, the channel's vice president of communications. 
The complaint claims breach of contract, fraud, animal cruelty and intentional infliction of emotional distress, among other allegations. It seeks more than $25,000 in damages. 

here's the lengendary lawsuit...


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I went to see him live last year and he seems to attract dogs as they all wanted to be with him and not one showed any fear. I dont agree with all his ways but some of the things he does are excellent


I certainly agree with what he does with the owners! A lot of them don't have a clue.



quizicalkat said:


> I use a composite of many different training methods but I can guarentee you that I am 'pack leader' (says she with one dog snoring contentedly in his basket and another snoozing next to her)


I am a bit of a mish mash trainer too but our family doberman seems to have responded well to it!


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

HABU said:


> like tapping on someone's shoulder...
> 
> fear and pain?... try surprise...


This.

You want to break bad behaviour, nothing works better than taking the dog by suprise. It's not fear or pain, it's more like when someone scares you from behind, no harm done, but it certainly takes your mind off whatever you were doing.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

HABU said:


> i'd love to see some of your goofy dogs... i bet they don't listen at all...



This is a bit offending, yes? My dog MAY be goofy, but he does listen. :whistling2: Two very different things :2thumb:

Diesel gets into "collie mode" and I tap him on the shoulder to get his attention, but it's nothing like the force CM seems to use on some of those dogs. You surely can't hear contact when I "touch" Diesel and you definitely can on a few of those clips. 

I didn't need a highly edited montage of CM to know I don't like him. I've seen several of his shows and didn't like what I see. We are all entitled to an opinion and mine is he's a bully and definitely wouldn't be allowed anywhere near any dog of mine.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

quizicalkat said:


> It is almost impossible to put any force behind a 'kick' done at that angle.
> 
> Very sensationalist you tube vid in my opinion.
> 
> ...


 I have to say I totally agree with this.

I wouldn't call that kicking at all. I can't see any force behind any of those kicks and I never saw one dog's feet leave the ground which they would have done, had it been a 'kick' as we perceive kicks. I agree with Habu that they're attention breakers, as soon as the dog exhibits the behaviour he's trying to correct, he breaks their attention and, to be honest, if it works then I don't see the harm in it. Sorry!

Like Quizicalkat I'm no great supporter of Milan, but I think this is just sensationalism by video.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

abandonallhope said:


> This.
> 
> You want to break bad behaviour, nothing works better than taking the dog by suprise. It's not fear or pain, it's more like when someone scares you from behind, no harm done, but it certainly takes your mind off whatever you were doing.


 
dogs have one track minds... they can't focus on more than one thing...

they see the cat... and nothing else... they focus on the owner and nothing else hardly exists...

puppies have a very short attention span and are easily distracted... but you don't beat them... you get their attention... their focus on you... not the bird flying by...

cesar deals with dinged-up dogs... raised by fools who haven't a clue... they just spoil their dogs till they are basket cases...

dogs aren't babies... what is cruel for a human isn't for a dog...

making people eat out of a bowl on the floor would be considered cruel to a human... not to a dog... 

anyone that smacks a dog around is a fool... a dog will not trust someone who hits... but dogs are physical animals... body language and rank is important to them... look at dogs play... they grab each others throats in their jaws.... they bite and jump on one another...

but a light tap to get a dog's attention is cruel...

go figure!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Amalthea said:


> This is a bit offending, yes? My dog MAY be goofy, but he does listen. :whistling2: Two very different things :2thumb:
> 
> Diesel gets into "collie mode" and I tap him on the shoulder to get his attention, but it's nothing like the force CM seems to use on some of those dogs. You surely can't hear contact when I "touch" Diesel and you definitely can on a few of those clips.
> 
> I didn't need a highly edited montage of CM to know I don't like him. I've seen several of his shows and didn't like what I see. We are all entitled to an opinion and mine is he's a bully and definitely wouldn't be allowed anywhere near any dog of mine.


 
you're likely the type that ends up calling a dog behavioralist to fix your dog...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

what's alpha rolling?

i've never heard of it...


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## courseithurts (Dec 29, 2010)

quizicalkat said:


> It is almost impossible to put any force behind a 'kick' done at that angle.
> 
> Very sensationalist you tube vid in my opinion.
> 
> ...


 think this post just about sums it up for me


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

HABU said:


> you're likely the type that ends up calling a dog behavioralist to fix your dog...


I assure you, I'm not. Several forumites have met my dog and he's a good boy. So maybe don't make assumptions about me and my Diesel without any knowledge on either of us.


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

HABU said:


> dogs have one track minds... they can't focus on more than one thing...
> 
> they see the cat... and nothing else... they focus on the owner and nothing else hardly exists...
> 
> ...


Bit in bold is bang on the mark. You can shout and scream at a dog all you want and it does very little, other than possibly scare it. A quick tap to regain it's attention, or an alpha roll and pin if the dogs being really bad works perfectly.

People anthropomorphise animals, you can't reason with a dog, you can't sit it down and explain what it did wrong or what it should do. You need to talk to the dog in it's own language, and that is through touch and body language.

Habu, your obviously a very cruel man tapping your dog, think of the emotional and physical trauma your casuing the poor thing. Next time he/she is naughty you must give him/her a good talking to about how disapointed you are with the behaviour and that they are never to do it again. :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Amalthea said:


> I assure you, I'm not. Several forumites have met my dog and he's a good boy. So maybe don't make assumptions about me and my Diesel without any knowledge on either of us.


 
sorry, you just came across as one of those types that let a dog do whatever he wants... 

my mistake... i just know so many... the ones that let a dog get by with almost anything...

: victory:


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

HABU said:


> what's alpha rolling?
> 
> i've never heard of it...


'An *alpha roll* is a technique used in dog training to discipline a misbehaving dog. It consists of flipping the dog onto its back and holding it in that position, sometimes by the throat. The theory is that this teaches the dog that the trainer is the pack leader (or alpha animal).


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Cesar is a TV star, not a dog trainer. A flash of his whitened teeth, and a kick to a dog, that makes him a megastar for numpties.

You can train a dog without hurting it or scaring it. And all that dominance and pack ranking crap is just that - a gimmick.

Hate the guy, I feel for those who claims to cure then abandons with no real training knowledge.



abandonallhope said:


> That video is a load of crap, editing works both ways and they have exploited that. Dogs DO understand dominance, the wolf instincts are still there, I have enough experience with dominant breeds to say this with conviction.


LOL. So you think you need to go through a door first, eat first, roll your dog in order to prove you're the "alpha"?

Gimmick. Sold.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

HABU said:


> sorry, you just came across as one of those types that let a dog do whatever he wants...
> 
> my mistake... i just know so many... the ones that let a dog get by with almost anything...
> 
> : victory:


Dont be so bloody rude. Because someone doesn't love your favourite dog trainer, that makes their dog poorly behaved? Assumption much?

Crikey, you really are obnoxious.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

No, he's not allowed to do whatever he wants. I am very much "alpha" in my household (yes, I do believe dogs still have that instinct in them, regardless of their domestication).


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

abandonallhope said:


> Bit in bold is bang on the mark. You can shout and scream at a dog all you want and it does very little, other than possibly scare it. A quick tap to regain it's attention, or an alpha roll and pin if the dogs being really bad works perfectly.
> 
> People anthropomorphise animals, you can't reason with a dog, you can't sit it down and explain what it did wrong or what it should do. You need to talk to the dog in it's own language, and that is through touch and body language.
> 
> Habu, your obviously a very cruel man tapping your dog, think of the emotional and physical trauma your casuing the poor thing. Next time he/she is naughty you must give him/her a good talking to about how disapointed you are with the behaviour and that they are never to do it again. :lol2:


 
i have a 5 pound dog and a 100 pound dog... both are well mannered and happy... hehe!!

you're right about disappointment... a well raised dog wants to please and get that positive attention... ignoring them or being dissatisfied with them just bums them out...

except badly raised dogs... attention is attention to them... good or bad... like when they jump up on people and get petted... or show aggression and get petted... the owner thinks he's calming them... but in reality he's just praising them for unwanted behaviors...

a dog should do as it's commanded... the first time... not begged, pleaded with... bribed or what have you... get off the couch means get off the couch... sit means sit... not sit, when you feel like it...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Dont be so bloody rude. Because someone doesn't love your favourite dog trainer, that makes their dog poorly behaved? Assumption much?
> 
> Crikey, you really are obnoxious.


 
i'm a yank... what can i say?:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> Cesar is a TV star, not a dog trainer. A flash of his whitened teeth, and a kick to a dog, that makes him a megastar for numpties.
> 
> You can train a dog without hurting it or scaring it. And all that dominance and pack ranking crap is just that - a gimmick.
> 
> ...


so which is your dog on your sig?:whistling2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

All an alpha roll will teach your dog is that next time they should bite you. How are you teaching him to respect you buy pretending you're going to kill him? Because that's what it is - putting your dog in fear of his life, offering his belly to you.

You can get respect without hurting or scaring your dog. Gawd, I'm glad I dont have one any more if this is how you're expected to raise them.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

abandonallhope said:


> 'An *alpha roll* is a technique used in dog training to discipline a misbehaving dog. It consists of flipping the dog onto its back and holding it in that position, sometimes by the throat. The theory is that this teaches the dog that the trainer is the pack leader (or alpha animal).
> image


 
naw... that is rarely necessary... a well raised pup/dog doesn't need that... an out-of-control dog does sometimes... those fi-fi dogs need that when they are spoiled and think they run the show... own everything...


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> LOL. So you think you need to go through a door first, eat first, roll your dog in order to prove you're the "alpha"?
> 
> Gimmick. Sold.


Gimmic, sorry didn't know wolves had gimmics. You want a well adjusted dog, look at them, watch how the interact with each other, look at where they came from, god forbid read something about wolves and then try calling it a gimmic.

How many dogs do you have Lisa and what training methods do you use? How well behaved are your dogs? I know each of mine is perfectly well adjusted, sociable creature that knows it's a dog, and knows how to act like one.

Alpha roll is a small potion of my training, theres so much more to it than that. Most of my method is based on stuff I have picked up from other dog trainers, including military ones, studying wold behaviour and applying it to domestic dogs and a little bit of all important common sense.

To be honest I think the door thing is crap, along with half of what CM says. Some of it's good advice, but not anything that hasn't been around for a good few years.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> All an alpha roll will teach your dog is that next time they should bite you. How are you teaching him to respect you buy pretending you're going to kill him? Because that's what it is - putting your dog in fear of his life, offering his belly to you.
> 
> You can get respect without hurting or scaring your dog. Gawd, I'm glad I dont have one any more if this is how you're expected to raise them.


 
a well raised dog doesn't bite people unless told to do so...

if it comes to that... a dog that bites... it's already screwed up.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

HABU said:


> i'm a yank... what can i say?:Na_Na_Na_Na:


So am I, but I don't make assumptions on how somebody I have never met/seen trains his dog


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Amalthea said:


> So am I, but I don't make assumptions on how somebody I have never met/seen trains his dog


we all make assumptions...

you're making assumptions about me...


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> All an alpha roll will teach your dog is that next time they should bite you. How are you teaching him to respect you buy pretending you're going to kill him? Because that's what it is - putting your dog in fear of his life, offering his belly to you.
> 
> You can get respect without hurting or scaring your dog. Gawd, I'm glad I dont have one any more if this is how you're expected to raise them.


Seriously? I'm not even going to go into how wrong you are as I fear I'd just be wasting my breath.



HABU said:


> naw... that is rarely necessary... a well raised pup/dog doesn't need that... an out-of-control dog does sometimes... those fi-fi dogs need that when they are spoiled and think they run the show... own everything...


Thats just it, not all dogs are well raised. I will and have alpha rolled, but not very often. Did it once on a staffy I was helping a friend out with after she went unprovoked for another dog, she soon got the message and now happily walks with a small pack of dogs round the local park.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Nope... I'm sure your methods work for you and I do see what you are saying about getting the dog's attention. Like I said, I do tap Diesel on the shoulder when he goes into "collie mode", because he gets completely focused on whatever it is he thinks needs herding and doesn't "hear" me, but it's never with the force the CM seems to use.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I think ceasars training is brilliant. His techiniques are used quickly efficiently and he gets results rather than following victoria stilwell or the likes and waiting months for the same outcome.

Ceasar doesn't kick dogs if he did the dog would cry out in pain and be fearful he uses his foot to tap them. Its the same as yanking on the lead but more humane since the hip has no vital organs in it!!

I dont think Ceasar calls himself a trainer he rehabs dogs that have been mis-trained.

I've only seen him alpha roll two dogs and both were on the brink of ripping out his throat as a result of his correct guidance and ill effects of their owners and needed to be brought under control.


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## Charlibob (Jun 21, 2008)

I really don't know how people can justify alpha rolling a dog, yes its what they do in the wild but they aren't in the wild and we are not dogs!

When my cats are sick of the other they smack each other around the head to tell them to get away, should I start doing the same :whistling2:


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

In regards to the alpha rolling issue, my dobie does this to the lab pup when he steps out of line. He is showing that he is the more dominant of the two dogs, and as soon as it's done they are back to being best of friends and part of a happy well adjusted pack. This is natural part of canine interaction, which is evident in play and small squabbles and never results in the submissive dog biting the other. It re-establishes pack hierachy, which anyone with multiple dogs knows is a vital part of keeping afore mentioned multiple dogs together.

Out of interest everyone saying that alpha rolling is cruel, how many of you have more than one dog, what ages and how long has the pack been together?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I think ceasars training is brilliant. His techiniques are used quickly efficiently and he gets results rather than following victoria stilwell or the likes and waiting months for the same outcome.
> 
> Ceasar doesn't kick dogs if he did the dog would cry out in pain and be fearful he uses his foot to tap them. Its the same as yanking on the lead but more humane since the hip has no vital organs in it!!
> 
> ...











that british chick?


i watch her sometimes... for laughs...


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

We used to walk with a pomeranian bitch who was Diesel best friend, but she was very much the boss (even though they loved eachother and enjoyed their time together)... She woudl regularly alpha roll Diesel. Was quite comical


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

you show your rank and dominance by your bearing and actions...

the way you walk and act... the way you carry yourself...

dogs see that... they see how you "own" everything... are in charge...


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## Sarahhampson (Oct 19, 2010)

we have a very aggresive boxer and were told to tap her with the end of the lead to break her concentration she is not scared of us atall and it certanly dosnt hurt her


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I think ceasars training is brilliant. His techiniques are used quickly efficiently and he gets results rather than following victoria stilwell or the likes and waiting months for the same outcome.
> 
> Ceasar doesn't kick dogs if he did the dog would cry out in pain and be fearful he uses his foot to tap them. Its the same as yanking on the lead but more humane since the hip has no vital organs in it!!
> 
> ...


 when i got my dog i had to grab her and force her to submit... she was biting folks and owning people... out of control like those fi-fi dogs seem to always do...

after that she behaved... now i can trust her not to bite... once i knocked her off her pedestal...

she was a holy terror before i got her... now she's a sweety... and happy too...

she went to bite me when she was sitting on someone's lap... i snatched her up and held her down by the throat till she calmed down and gave up...

she was a different and delightful dog after that...

she's happier now not thinking she's in charge... she can be a dog now and let me run the show...

that's after biting maybe 50 people or more... hasn't bitten since... growled a few times at first... but i hissed at her each time and she got the picture...

she was nearly given up on till i got hold of her...


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

Amalthea said:


> We used to walk with a pomeranian bitch who was Diesel best friend, but she was very much the boss (even though they loved eachother and enjoyed their time together)... She woudl regularly alpha roll Diesel. Was quite comical


You see this is exactly what I'm talking about.

They got on as there was a hierachy, the bitch was reminding Diesel she was in charge by alpha rolling him, no harm done, and straight after both dogs carry on as if nothing has happened. 

It is giggle worthy when a small dog rolls a big one, oddly I've very rarely seen a big dog roll a small one, typical gentle giants, let anyone walk all over them. :lol2:


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

well to say that you can't kick with any kind of force at that angle isn't true, I could easily knock my toddler of his feet doing that, I wouldn't be able to by tapping him on the shoulder (and to suggest a kick is only a kick if their feet leave the foor?? jeez that would have to be one hell of a kick. Plus they do leave he floor in many of them, not by force though by suprise.) ... also, it would probably not hurt him, but i wouldn't do it to stop him doing something he's not allowed to, it isn't neccessary. In some of those video clips it sure didn't seem neccassary, the husky type dog is walking ok til he gets a kick and then reacts so he shoves a choker round his neck. If he hadn't have kicked him in the first place the dog wouldn't have started barking and jumping at him. I don't like that he only teaches punishment methods but then i don't agree with shoveling treats at them like some trainers do either. Ofcourse ideally it never would have got to the stage where the dogs misbeahave like they do in the show but that's not Ceaser's fault it's the owners so maybe there really is no alternative method for these dogs. Though it does sometimes seem cruel and I wouldn't want to use those methods, nor do I agree with teaching them to people who may not get the difference between an 'attention-grabbing'kick and a kick. Even though it says 'do not use these methods without first consulting an animal behavourist' or whatever disclaimer it has... still people do as they see on telly.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

abandonallhope said:


> You see this is exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> They got on as there was a hierachy, the bitch was reminding Diesel she was in charge by alpha rolling him, no harm done, and straight after both dogs carry on as if nothing has happened.
> 
> It is giggle worthy when a small dog rolls a big one, oddly I've very rarely seen a big dog roll a small one, typical gentle giants, let anyone walk all over them. :lol2:


:lol2: Thought you'd like that  A bit of light heartedness in a heated thread  I let my dog act like a dog and don't pussy foot around him. Let him play and wrestle with other dogs. I remember when he was a puppy and a bigger dog would knock him over and he'd squeal a bit... More often than not, the other owner would get all worried and I was like "it's fine... he's gotta learn".


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

As said already, I dont keep dogs any more, I have had dogs (including a 75kg rescue dane!) in the past, and never had to hit, roll or be "alpha" with any of them. They did as they were told as we had mutual respect. I didn't need to eat before them, walk through the door before them, or roll them over on their back to train them. It's simply not necessary, and only fooling you. Dogs dont think we're their pack leader, they know we're not dogs, they're not stupid (well, not all of them LOL).

It is a gimmick. Someone says that wolves have pack alphas, people are all over that because it sounds right to them. Doesn't MAKE it right though.

It might be worth reading this - I bandy it about a lot on these threads, I thought some of you might have taken it in by now...

Victoria Stilwell - View topic - Dominance: Dog V Human - taking over the world?

Incidentally, it may be on VS's site, but I cant stand that woman either. This was written by someone with a few more brain cells...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

bottom line:

a dog must recognise you as the boss... the leader... the provider...

a well mannered dog has more fun... it's not confused... anxious or abused...

most owners just don't understand how a dog's mind works... whatever your training methods and principles... knowing how a dog thinks is the whole enchilada... i dare say that 90% of dog owners haven't a clue as to how a dog sees and interprets the world...

i normally hate being around dogs... other people's dogs... most are messed up... and/or their owners are messed up...


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

Amalthea said:


> :lol2: Thought you'd like that  A bit of light heartedness in a heated thread  I let my dog act like a dog and don't pussy foot around him. Let him play and wrestle with other dogs. I remember when he was a puppy and a bigger dog would knock him over and he'd squeal a bit... More often than not, the other owner would get all worried and I was like "it's fine... he's gotta learn".


This thread certainly did need a bit of humour. Theres nothing like letting dogs be dogs, wrestling around, and nipping each other. Pups need to get beaten up a bit, it teaches them respect for other dogs, and how to play, but your right so many people panic and think they are hurting each other.



LisaLQ said:


> As said already, I dont keep dogs any more, I have had dogs (including a 75kg rescue dane!) in the past, and never had to hit, roll or be "alpha" with any of them. They did as they were told as we had mutual respect. I didn't need to eat before them, walk through the door before them, or roll them over on their back to train them. It's simply not necessary, and only fooling you. Dogs dont think we're their pack leader, they know we're not dogs, they're not stupid (well, not all of them LOL).
> 
> It is a gimmick. Someone says that wolves have pack alphas, people are all over that because it sounds right to them. Doesn't MAKE it right though.
> 
> ...


You obviously have your own ideas about training and thats cool, whatever works for you. But I have my own methods, as I've said developed from working with some pretty dominant breeds, and that works for me. 

I'm really struggling to see your point about the alpha roll, wolves do have alphas, dominant members of a pack roll weaker members, it's a fact not something someone has made up. Dogs might not be wolves anymore but there behaviour is inherantly wolf. Dogs will and do respond to an alpha figure, it dosn't matter if they are dog, wolf or human, a dog is a pack animal and WANTS to look to someone for guidance.

VS is also full of crap, most of the TV dog trainers are, what works and looks good in real life is not the same as in TV land.


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## sparky1708 (Oct 5, 2007)

HABU said:


> image
> that british chick?
> 
> 
> i watch her sometimes... for laughs...


Victoria Stillwells answer to everything with a male dog is to have the "family jewels" snipped off!! :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

time for the "POST YOUR DOGS" segment...:lol2:


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Post your dogs is good  Calms people down a bit


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## rob11 (May 7, 2007)

The big problem I have with this is you can't see how hard the kick/tap is. He could litterally be just tapping the dog but someone thinking oh, that's how its done could just boot the dog. I don't think that kicking/tapping the dog is the most effective way of training the dog out of the behaviour.

He also uses shock collars, which I think are barbaric

YouTube - GSD Cesar shocl collar


Other people also dislike the use of shock collars

YouTube - It's Me or the Dog- Shock Collar

others don't like his methods at all

YouTube - Are the Dog Whisperer's methods harmful ?

I don't like him, he is manufactured. He crossed the border illeagally because he needed to be on TV, by his own admision in one of his books that I had the misfortune of leafing through once. I won't be lining his pockets anymore!


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

My rottweiler has a tendancy to push his luck every now and again, he'll come and lay across my partner or jump on the couch when my mother in law visits so hes always needed a firm controlling leader.

I try to pre-emp rather than solve. I like to give my dogs guidance before an action is carried out rather than wait for them to screw up and then fix it which i think is ceasars main point.

It makes sense set the dog up for success and you won't have to dicipline or scold.

However its my bitch who is 2/3 the size of my dog who rules the roost between them and she has been like this since day dot. You have to respect that amoungst them or it causes even more problems.


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## sparky1708 (Oct 5, 2007)

em_40 said:


> well to say that you can't kick with any kind of force at that angle isn't true, I could easily knock my toddler of his feet doing that, I wouldn't be able to by tapping him on the shoulder (and to suggest a kick is only a kick if their feet leave the foor?? jeez that would have to be one hell of a kick. Plus they do leave he floor in many of them, not by force though by suprise.) ... also, it would probably not hurt him, but i wouldn't do it to stop him doing something he's not allowed to, it isn't neccessary. In some of those video clips it sure didn't seem neccassary, the husky type dog is walking ok til he gets a kick and then reacts so he shoves a choker round his neck. If he hadn't have kicked him in the first place the dog wouldn't have started barking and jumping at him. I don't like that he only teaches punishment methods but then i don't agree with shoveling treats at them like some trainers do either. Ofcourse ideally it never would have got to the stage where the dogs misbeahave like they do in the show but that's not Ceaser's fault it's the owners so maybe there really is no alternative method for these dogs. Though it does sometimes seem cruel and I wouldn't want to use those methods, nor do I agree with teaching them to people who may not get the difference between an 'attention-grabbing'kick and a kick. Even though it says 'do not use these methods without first consulting an animal behavourist' or whatever disclaimer it has... still people do as they see on telly.


 
We have a Siberian Husky and while i dont condone using force with a dog i must say that with this breed you need to work with a pack mentality. These dogs are pack orientated and their lives are built around squabbles and challenging alpha members of the group. To this purpose they can display what could be perceived as aggression...but is just huskys body language. Once you get used to the staring, showing teeth etc you can deal with it appropriately. 

I have never hit or kicked any of my dogs but i have used alpha rolling and tapping to change the huskys focus. The good thing about a husky is that they have a short attention span....the bad thing about a husky is that they have a short attention span :lol2:


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## sparky1708 (Oct 5, 2007)

HABU said:


> time for the "POST YOUR DOGS" segment...:lol2:


Here are my two "well adjusted" bundles of fun


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

the word, "kick" is the problem...

cesar doesn't kick dogs...

a dog will usually yelp when kicked...

never hit a dog unless it's attacking you...

a touch is not a hit... a nudge with a foot isn't a kick...


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## sparky1708 (Oct 5, 2007)

HABU said:


> the word, "kick" is the problem...
> 
> cesar doesn't kick dogs...
> 
> ...


Agreed. I think the issue has already been highlighted on this thread...we humanise our dogs which is wrong. Dogs are pack animals and have their own levels and methods of correction which we would perceive as violence. We look on them as babies...they look on us as dogs, as just another member of the pack!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Says it all really...
> 
> YouTube - Cesar Millan kicking dogs


 
i watched it thought ur face book page hun, iv never really watched him the only thing i knew was he used them collars with the spikes inside which i didnt agree with.but after watching that i think he a total plank and cums across as a bully :whip:


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## kingball (Jun 21, 2009)

If he kicked my dog i would stamp on his head!


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

My mutt and his pinny gig:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> i watched it thought ur face book page hun, iv never really watched him the only thing i knew was he used them collars with the spikes inside which i didnt agree with.but after watching that i think he a total plank and cums across as a bully :whip:


 
a bully?

he bullies dogs eh?

do dogs understand bullying at all?

good thing he doesn't embarrass dogs in front of their friends or talk about them behind their backs...

i knew a guy once who used to spread nasty rumors about a dog to all his doggy friends... the dog felt betrayed and became and alcoholic... then moved to vegas where he tried to swindle a casino to get money to support his habit... last i heard the dog was living in tijuana with a hooker...

:whistling2:


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## sparky1708 (Oct 5, 2007)

Amalthea said:


> My mutt and his pinny gig:
> 
> image


Gorgeous :2thumb:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

kingball said:


> If he kicked my dog i would stamp on his head!


 
and spend the rest of your life in prison...:whistling2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Try alpha rolling this monster...










Whereas this one went from cowering (and peeing herself) wreck, to wonderful happy dog (with quirks - eg she was never cat friendly but that wasn't something I even attempted to work on because we didnt have them)...









I doubt we'll have another dog now. But if I did, they'd be booked in at obedience class, socialised and trained with mutual respect. It works.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

HABU said:


> a bully?
> 
> he bullies dogs eh?
> 
> ...


wow what a dog would love 2 meet him bet he likes to party :mf_dribble:

no dogs probably dont understand bullying but i do, i know people that are bullies n kick there dogs coz they would get battered if they did that 2 people, however it is a shame coz there dogs are so loyal 2 them n well behavied, infact they probably do as there told more than mine but i wouldnt like 2 treat my dogs like that.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> wow what a dog would love 2 meet him bet he likes to party :mf_dribble:
> 
> no dogs probably dont understand bullying but i do, i know people that are bullies n kick there dogs coz they would get battered if they did that 2 people, however it is a shame coz there dogs are so loyal 2 them n well behavied, infact they probably do as there told more than mine but i wouldnt like 2 treat my dogs like that.


 
that's abuse... not dog training...


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

HABU said:


> ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...
> 
> he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...
> 
> ...


I brought my dog up from two weeks old, and I trained him by taking him out to the fields by my house and taking his lead off and giving him freedom. The very first time I did this he followed me while exploring the nearby area, and since that day he's always been the same. He's good with people, doesn't chase after other dogs even though he could if he chose and he also comes to me everytime I call him. I achieved it by bringing him up in a loving environment and giving him his freedom off the lead, no treats or toys needed even. The last thing I'd do is kick him in the balls for the slightest thing I found to be disobedient, that causes dogs to go in the opposite direction.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

snake5007 said:


> I brought my dog up from two weeks old, and I trained him by taking him out to the fields by my house and taking his lead off and giving him freedom. The very first time I did this he followed me while exploring the nearby area, and since that day he's always been the same. He's good with people, doesn't chase after other dogs even though he could if he chose and he also comes to me everytime I call him. I achieved it by bringing him up in a loving environment and giving him his freedom off the lead, no treats or toys needed even. The last thing I'd do is kick him in the balls for the slightest thing I found to be disobedient, that causes dogs to go in the opposite direction.


 
who kicked anyone in the balls?


what about your other dogs?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

snake5007 said:


> I brought my dog up from two weeks old, and I trained him by taking him out to the fields by my house and taking his lead off and giving him freedom. The very first time I did this he followed me while exploring the nearby area, and since that day he's always been the same. He's good with people, doesn't chase after other dogs even though he could if he chose and he also comes to me everytime I call him. I achieved it by bringing him up in a loving environment and giving him his freedom off the lead, no treats or toys needed even. The last thing I'd do is kick him in the balls for the slightest thing I found to be disobedient, that causes dogs to go in the opposite direction.


 
you have a problem... can't you read?

no one condoned kicking a dog in the balls or abusing a dog...

you have much dog experience?

hey... someone give this fool a dog that has issues and video tape him trying to fix it...

that would make for a great youtube vid!!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

em_40 said:


> well to say that you can't kick with any kind of force at that angle isn't true, I could easily knock my toddler of his feet doing that, I wouldn't be able to by tapping him on the shoulder (and to suggest a kick is only a kick if their feet leave the foor?? jeez that would have to be one hell of a kick. Plus they do leave he floor in many of them, not by force though by suprise.) ... also, it would probably not hurt him, but i wouldn't do it to stop him doing something he's not allowed to, it isn't neccessary. In some of those video clips it sure didn't seem neccassary, the husky type dog is walking ok til he gets a kick and then reacts so he shoves a choker round his neck. If he hadn't have kicked him in the first place the dog wouldn't have started barking and jumping at him. I don't like that he only teaches punishment methods but then i don't agree with shoveling treats at them like some trainers do either. Ofcourse ideally it never would have got to the stage where the dogs misbeahave like they do in the show but that's not Ceaser's fault it's the owners so maybe there really is no alternative method for these dogs. Though it does sometimes seem cruel and I wouldn't want to use those methods, nor do I agree with teaching them to people who may not get the difference between an 'attention-grabbing'kick and a kick. Even though it says 'do not use these methods without first consulting an animal behavourist' or whatever disclaimer it has... still people do as they see on telly.





HABU said:


> the word, "kick" is the problem......


Anyone can push a toddler off his feet without any amount of energy at all - they're "toddlers" and they're standing on 2 legs - you can't compare the balance between a toddler and a dog standing on 4 legs - sorry!

Habu's right - the word "kick" is a problem, here - I think what he's doing is nudging the dog, but the fact that he's using a foot means it is interpreted as a kick. 

Yes, some leave the floor by surprise - which is the object of the nudge, but if he bent down to nudge, the dog would see that coming and I believe the purpose is to surprise the dog out of the behaviour, so he doesn't see that nudge with the foot coming.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

HABU said:


> you have a problem... can't you read?
> 
> no one condoned kicking a dog in the balls or abusing a dog...
> 
> ...


I've had dogs all my life, but only have one at the moment. Your dog bit fifty people before she came to you? None of my dogs have ever bitten anybody, and they would've had to have been put down for biting one person, let alone fifty. Sorry, weren't you saying something about "goofy" dogs earlier? I suppose it's ok to have a "goofy" dog where you are, which is probably why CM is so successful.


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## Crab Man (Oct 3, 2009)

snake5007 said:


> I've had dogs all my life, but only have one at the moment. Your dog bit fifty people before she came to you? None of my dogs have ever bitten anybody, and they would've had to have been put down for biting one person, let alone fifty. Sorry, weren't you saying something about "goofy" dogs earlier? I suppose it's ok to have a "goofy" dog where you are, which is probably why CM is so successful.


Probably would have helped if you read the whole post before blowing your top!
HABU's dog bit a lot of people, *then* HABU got the dog, *then* he gave it the necessary training to eradicate the behaviour. Now it no longer bites people....


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

Crab Man said:


> Probably would have helped if you read the whole post before blowing your top!
> HABU's dog bit a lot of people, *then* HABU got the dog, *then* he gave it the necessary training to eradicate the behaviour. Now it no longer bites people....


I read the post. You didn't read mine though. How did you miss the bit where I said "Before she came to you"?


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## Lenor (Jul 24, 2009)

I think a few people may be slightly missing the point in this thread.... none of the alpha-rolling advocates on this thread are saying to alpha roll every dog for every misdemeanour... some dogs are naturally more obedient than others and some are naturally submissive and less likely to challenge the "pack" heirachy, so these dogs will be a pleasure to train with minimal work. None of the pro-alpha rolling posters are saying walk in through the front door and immediately pin your waggy tailed soppy retriever to the floor just to remind it not to ever try it on - doing that will cause a problem. They are only advocating it in cases of extreme challenging behaviour. I'm not 100% sure on it myself but i have seen it used very successfully. The trick is reading and understanding dog's body language well enough to see when it might be appropriate, and equally when it definitely isn't... If your dog has always been a happy animal from a pup that easily got it's place in the family and doesn't try and usurp the pack leader position of course you'll have never alpha-rolled it, it's never been appropriate to. But some dogs are more challenging.


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## sparky1708 (Oct 5, 2007)

Lenor said:


> I think a few people may be slightly missing the point in this thread.... none of the alpha-rolling advocates on this thread are saying to alpha roll every dog for every misdemeanour... some dogs are naturally more obedient than others and some are naturally submissive and less likely to challenge the "pack" heirachy, so these dogs will be a pleasure to train with minimal work. None of the pro-alpha rolling posters are saying walk in through the front door and immediately pin your waggy tailed soppy retriever to the floor just to remind it not to ever try it on - doing that will cause a problem. They are only advocating it in cases of extreme challenging behaviour. I'm not 100% sure on it myself but i have seen it used very successfully. The trick is reading and understanding dog's body language well enough to see when it might be appropriate, and equally when it definitely isn't... If your dog has always been a happy animal from a pup that easily got it's place in the family and doesn't try and usurp the pack leader position of course you'll have never alpha-rolled it, it's never been appropriate to. But some dogs are more challenging.


Exactly. Well said! : victory:


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

HABU said:


> ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...
> 
> he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...
> 
> ...


totally agree.



Marinam2 said:


> I think ceasars training is brilliant. His techiniques are used quickly efficiently and he gets results rather than following victoria stilwell or the likes and waiting months for the same outcome.
> 
> Ceasar doesn't kick dogs if he did the dog would cry out in pain and be fearful he uses his foot to tap them. Its the same as yanking on the lead but more humane since the hip has no vital organs in it!!
> 
> ...


totally agree with you too.


HABU said:


> image
> that british chick?
> 
> 
> i watch her sometimes... for laughs...


she teaches dog owners who have no common sense what so ever.simples!

video is a load of tosh,i like the guy and thats my opinion.
i dont agree with pincher collars in the same way i dont agree with spurs being used on horse BUT sometimes artificial aids are needed.
a shove/nudge has being turned into a kick. im pretty sure too that he didnt " cross the border" to get on tv and im also pretty sure he didnt "become a dog trainer to get on tv"
like somebody said to many dogs are humanised,not treated like dogs which is why they become agressive and act very different in "doggy" situations. the progress of some dogs from which he helps is amazing.

anyway heres my gruesome threesome!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

HABU said:


> ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...
> 
> he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...
> 
> ...


Think id be with this guy...
Dont see him doing anything that would cause harm..
Getting attention yes but harming them --no way..
I think hes truly brilliant at what he does...

Ive seen dogs kicked and gave the owner a piece of my mind...
Thats not kicking, surely....

Never seen him do it to very small dogs,,uses fingers for them...
Dont think he would harm dogs though.....
But thats my opinion so dont jump on me as im like all you..
Love animals......

Ive got five of them and love them all....

sorry but Ceaser rocks.....:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Crab Man (Oct 3, 2009)

snake5007 said:


> I read the post. You didn't read mine though. How did you miss the bit where I said "Before she came to you"?


I saw that bit, and in between the lines I also saw the bit where you accuse HABU of having one of those aforementioned "goofy dogs when, in fact, HABU explained how he took on a goofy dog and successfully managed to "un-goof" it!


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

Crab Man said:


> I saw that bit, and in between the lines I also saw the bit where you accuse HABU of having one of those aforementioned "goofy dogs when, in fact, HABU explained how he took on a goofy dog and successfully managed to "un-goof" it!


Biting fifty, yes FIFTY people is more than just "goofy". He didn't say anything about that when he was throwing his own accusations around, did he?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

snake5007 said:


> Biting fifty, yes FIFTY people is more than just "goofy". He didn't say anything about that when he was throwing his own accusations around, did he?


 
yep... the people that had the dog before didn't have a clue...

but i have her now... and she is a sweetheart... she no longer thinks she's in charge and owns everything around her... 

dogs shouldn't own things... dogs should always be below humans in the pecking order...

my little dog, before i got her owned everything... even her former owner... and of course a dog will need to protect what it owns...

i took her... the former owners were at their wit's end...

the dog wasn't happy in her former role... dogs never are happy being the boss... but when your owner isn't a leader someone has to be in charge... dogs try to take the job of being the leader when there isn't a leader... they almost always fail miserably at being the boss of the house...


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

If thats kicking a dog My dog's need help! 
My dogs do alot more than that to each other in play fight!

Infact If I did that to one of my dogs ( the mal ) she would think it was a nudge for play time to see who is more dominant.

years ago we used to have labaradors and no we wouldnt do this to them.. they wouldnt need it. Training some dogs dont require much work. Now I have two bitches both different breeds and both very dominant breds.. and both very large so could cause damamge if they wanted to, These sort of dogs do need different motivation and training than dogs we have had in the past. 

I dont judge peoples training methods within reason aslong as It gets the job done and you end up with a happy dog. 

In the youtube vid CM is working with agressive dogs that need a different approach, The dogs are not comming to harm.. like I said a moment ago " My dogs do alot more than that to each other in play fight!" 

My two weigh in at about 40 kg each, when play fighting there is more force being thrown around than that of a tap/kick/nudge what ever you want to call it that was seen in that video.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

HABU said:


> yep... the people that had the dog before didn't have a clue...
> 
> but i have her now... and she is a sweetheart... she no longer thinks she's in charge and owns everything around her...
> 
> ...


I agree with what your saying here, and I'm sorry I called you an idiot. The thing I disagreed with was the way you implied that people had badly behaved dogs because they disagreed with a quick backheel to the groin area. I know how much that can hurt, and I also know that it's easy to misinterpret how much force you're using with a kick like that. I don't use my feet when dealing with any animal.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

tbh i dont think you can generalise dog training, a method that works for one dog wont work with another. i dont have a dog at home at the moment (but im working on it...), however i do have my time share dogs (as i call them) who live at the farm where i keep my horse. as these are working dogs its a slightly different situation to a pet dog, ie they have jobs to do. theres the guard dog, 3 ratting dogs and, until recently, a sheep dog. with people she knows the guard dogs as soft as muck, i can roll her over, play fight with her and put my hand in her mouth to get something out, all with the confidence that she very very unlikely (before someone points out that you cant trust a dog 100%) to hurt me. but you have to be firm with her as she will take the :censor: if she thinks she can (shes a pain in the rear for knicking anything edible thats not nailed down) and a guard dog that cant be controlled isnt much use.

the sheep dog however was a different story entirely. he'd had a 'hard' owner before he arrived. it took us ages just to get him to stop shaking when we went in his kennel. if you picked up anything remotely stick like around him he'd flatten himself to the floor and shake like a leaf. safe to say the tried and tested being firm but fair, asserting yourself as alfa (aka farm yard training) terrified him, you couldnt raise your voice, he jumped at lound noises, the list goes on. in the end we found bribery very effective, he came out of his kennel on his own: he got a biscuit, no climbing the walls when the tractor started: biscuit, going up the fields when the farmer had a crook with him: massive marrow bone. we got him sorted in the end, i even had the farmer walking round with dog chocs in his pocket so he could be rewarded for being brave. i was gutted when he went, even though i still see him on occasion and hes doing brilliently, but when the sheep went there was no need for a sheep dog


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Based on the video in the OP's post, and having seen none of CM's programmes, I fail to see any cruelty in the "kicking" (more tapping) method shown.

Dogs are pack animals that follow a strict hierarchial structure- a tap with the heel behind the ribs is no worse than what an alpha animal would do to a subordinate to put it in its place. 

I can see surprise, maybe even shock in those dogs, but no pain and certainly no fear- just respect, which is what every domestic dog should show to its handler. 

I don't have to touch my own dog in that manner to get his respect, I bred him myself and he views me totally as the alpha dog, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a tap or a knock in a situation where I needed to get his attention quickly.

I train horses using natural methods- this isn't all mollycoddling and fairydust, contrary to popular belief. We frequently use elbow bumps and taps with the hand or a horsemans-stick to apply pressure and gain attention and respect. Its not about respect through dominance and fear, its about dominance through respect and good leadership. Animals understand such bumps and knocks- its how they communicate with their own kind in many situations. 

What better way to communicate with an animal than to speak to it in its own language?


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I was reluctant to post on this thread as often people get flamed for saying whats on their mind.
whilst i don't know much about this guy, having never watched his programmes i don't think what i saw is (as sexybear says) any worse than what dogs do to each other anywho...
my dogs snarl and wrestle with each other alot (especially as we have the new pup and they are currently jostling for position) and they can be really quite brutal. 
i'm not saying i would use these methods but i suppose if you knew what you were doing (e.g. as sexy bear was saying for the horse training above) then it is ok.
i also agree that this video has clearly been made with a purpose in mind and has been edited to show the guy in a very unforgiving light.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I wonder what the pro-kickers would say if the same methods were used on their kids. Still just a tap then?

I'd like to tap Cesar with my DMs on. Right in his short arse.

That so sounds better when you use the word kick. Tapping his arse sounds rather sinister. :blush:


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> I wonder what the pro-kickers would say if the same methods were used on their kids. Still just a tap then?
> 
> I'd like to tap Cesar with my DMs on. Right in his short arse.
> 
> That so sounds better when you use the word kick. * Tapping his arse sounds rather sinister*. :blush:


:lol2:


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> I wonder what the pro-kickers would say if the same methods were used on their kids. Still just a tap then?


By pro-kickers I assume you mean pro-leadership and respect? 

Because I sure as poop don't see any kicking in that video! :lol2:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

hmm... i'm just not sure what i think... i don't think he was 'kicking' tho.
i see it as more of a tap.
the problem is what do each of us define as kicking?
like the whole smacking kids issue...what some people define as a smack others define as reasonble chastisement...
very hard to call.


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## sss_180 (Jan 29, 2010)

Anybody who watches that video and thinks thats abuse is a complete idiot, and if you think its cruel and he's sadistic, then you probably shouldn't own animals, because you probably treat them as if they're human, and they probably need to visit Cesar for behavioural lesson or two :whistling2:

Seriously, im with Habu and others on here, its SO obvious, are people seriously that naive that they think a nudge is a kick?


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> By pro-kickers I assume you mean pro-leadership and respect?
> 
> Because I sure as poop don't see any kicking in that video! :lol2:


If I kicked you in your bladder you'd respect me for it? There are other ways of training dogs that don't cause them to become ankle biters.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Here you go- THIS is kicking a dog.

YouTube - Man Kicks & Chokes Puppy In Park

Warning- clip contains animal abuse and comments contain foul language- not suitable for young people.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

sss_180 said:


> Anybody who watches that video and thinks thats abuse is a complete idiot, and if you think its cruel and he's sadistic, then you probably shouldn't own animals, because you probably treat them as if they're human, and they probably need to visit Cesar for behavioural lesson or two :whistling2:
> 
> Seriously, im with Habu and others on here, its SO obvious, are people seriously that naive that they think a nudge is a kick?


 
You ever play footie? Even a light backheel to the groin area hurts.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

snake5007 said:


> If I kicked you in your bladder you'd respect me for it? There are other ways of training dogs that don't cause them to become ankle biters.


No I wouldn't. I am also not a dog. I do not follow the same social hierarchy as a dog, nor do I understand physical reprimands as part of my day to day life, unlike a dog.

Big difference. Stop anthropomorphising.


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## FreddiesMum (Jan 10, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> I wonder what the pro-kickers would say if the same methods were used on their kids. Still just a tap then?
> 
> *I'd like to tap Cesar with my DMs on. Right in his short arse.*
> 
> *That so sounds better when you use the word kick. Tapping his arse sounds rather sinister. :blush:*




:lol2:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

do we think thats partly the issue here? do people put to much human emphasis on the animals in question whilst forgetting the way in which animals (in this case dogs) work.
i'm not in any way advocating abuse of animals, i'm just wondering if we are simply adding our own human emotions and feelings into this debate?


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

sss_180 said:


> Anybody who watches that video and thinks thats abuse is a complete idiot, and if you think its cruel and he's sadistic, then you probably shouldn't own animals, because you probably treat them as if they're human, and they probably need to visit Cesar for behavioural lesson or two :whistling2:
> 
> Seriously, im with Habu and others on here, its SO obvious, are people seriously that naive that they think a nudge is a kick?


Oh dear, because we dont agree with a little mexican man kicking a dog, we shouldn't own pets. Yes, you're absolutely right, dear. *pats on head*



SexyBear77 said:


> By pro-kickers I assume you mean pro-leadership and respect?
> 
> Because I sure as poop don't see any kicking in that video! :lol2:


You dont get respect from an animal by scaring it. That's not respect. Respect is when your dog wants to do something for you, not when it's so sh*t scared it does it through fear of another smack/roll or "tap".



Rach1 said:


> do we think thats partly the issue here? do people put to much human emphasis on the animals in question whilst forgetting the way in which animals (in this case dogs) work.
> i'm not in any way advocating abuse of animals, i'm just wondering if we are simply adding our own human emotions and feelings into this debate?


You can disagree with this without being a softie who treats animals like kids. I think that's the problem. Cesar is the new BARF. If you dont agree with Cesar, you're a crap owner. Yes, yes, whatever...


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> do we think thats partly the issue here? do people put to much human emphasis on the animals in question whilst forgetting the way in which animals (in this case dogs) work.
> i'm not in any way advocating abuse of animals, i'm just wondering if we are simply adding our own human emotions and feelings into this debate?


100% agree.

People think I was cruel for slapping my horse once when he attacked me over his food bowl (the day after I got him), thus totally disrespecting me as leader. I made myself big, moved towards him and gave him a slap across the bottom of his neck, acting as the leader of my little herd and doing no more harm to him than another horse would when confronted with such rudeness. Apparently horses are these fragile wee things that would never EVER come to physical blows amongst their own kind... :whistling2: 

I should probably have given him a hug and made him a daisychain for his mane, and accepted all future challenges of my authority.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

yeah, to be honest i wasn't trying to say people who don't agree with this are soft etc... i was simply musing is all.
i have no real feelings either way....


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## rosanna123 (Sep 1, 2010)

HABU said:


> ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...
> 
> he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...
> 
> ...


 i totally agree, if you watch the video he is not KICKING them, he is just giving them a little tap with his foot to get their attention. i have used this methord with foals at racing studs, it does work and before you all start on me for doing the same as him and saying it is creul, it aint and it is recomended by stud staff.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

snake5007 said:


> If I kicked you in your bladder you'd respect me for it? There are other ways of training dogs that don't cause them to become ankle biters.


So where is the ankle biter in any of these dogs in the video? Surely if his purpose was to hurt the dog, he'd be kicking it in the ribs where there isn't any protection because that would hurt, whereas he clearly says in the video using the leg "not to kick, but to touch" - sorry but that's what I'm seeing.


snake5007 said:


> You ever play footie? Even a light backheel to the groin area hurts.


As with the behaviour of the different dogs there are varying levels of this nudging - on some of them you can clearly see it isn't his heel making contact at all it's actually the back of his lower leg.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> You dont get respect from an animal by scaring it. That's not respect. Respect is when your dog wants to do something for you, not when it's so sh*t scared it does it through fear of another smack/roll or "tap".


Those dogs aren't scared, they have been taken down a peg and are acting as such! Cowering, putting the tail between the legs, belly crawling- all the actions of a dog acting meek and humble after a reprimand from one higher up the hierarchy. Dogs in the pack aren't scared of each other (animals don't evolve to be such social creatures if relationships are based on fear), they respect each other.

Fear--------------------------------------------------------------Respect

Opposite ends of the scale.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> No I wouldn't. I am also not a dog. I do not follow the same social hierarchy as a dog, nor do I understand physical reprimands as part of my day to day life, unlike a dog.
> 
> Big difference. Stop anthropomorphising.


 
You keep dogs, you have to think how they think to gain trust and respect. If you don't understand the physical reprimands like a dog, then don't condone them. There are other ways.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

rosanna123 said:


> i totally agree, if you watch the video he is not KICKING them, he is just giving them a little tap with his foot to get their attention. i have used this methord with foals at racing studs, it does work and before you all start on me for doing the same as him and saying it is creul, it aint and it is recomended by stud staff.


OMG how COULD you?!??! Poor wee horsies, you cruel cruel person!

Bet they were terrified..... :lol2:


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

snake5007 said:


> You keep dogs, you have to think how they think to gain trust and respect. If you don't understand the physical reprimands like a dog, then don't condone them. There are other ways.


So you are saying I don't understand dog behaviour and psychology..... :lol2:

Dogs gain respect by making sure subordinates know their place, and by fulfilling the role of a good leader. That includes putting them in their place if they overstep the mark, and this involves physical contact quite often, especially if body language cues (such as posture) are ignored or the animal is too slow to react to them.

Animals that are in leadership positions often lead quite high stress lives- the responsibility that comes with their position is immense. Animals at the bottom of the hierarchy, whose lives are run for them pretty much, are the most relaxed, the most laid back, and the most stress free.

Being a good leader, as I've said before, isn't about gaining trust through fear. I do not believe for a second that the dogs in that particular video are frightened or in pain. I do not condone for one second the mindless lashing out towards an animal that often accompanies fear, impatience, ignorance or misunderstanding. However, I fully condone using physical, well understood contact as a means of gaining respect.


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## Carnuss (Feb 27, 2011)

_The Dog Kicker_


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

SexyBear77 said:


> Those dogs aren't scared, they have been taken down a peg and are acting as such! Cowering, putting the tail between the legs, belly crawling- all the actions of a dog acting meek and humble after a reprimand from one higher up the hierarchy. Dogs in the pack aren't scared of each other (animals don't evolve to be such social creatures if relationships are based on fear), they respect each other.
> 
> Fear--------------------------------------------------------------Respect
> 
> Opposite ends of the scale.


You see cowering as healthy? Why not take it a step further and make them pee themselves while you're on? So when a dog is hung and collapses and pees itself, what do you think about that? Another Cesar classic moment.



SexyBear77 said:


> So you are saying I don't understand dog behaviour and psychology..... :lol2:
> 
> Dogs gain respect by making sure subordinates know their place, and by fulfilling the role of a good leader. That includes putting them in their place if they overstep the mark, and this involves physical contact quite often, especially if body language cues (such as posture) are ignored or the animal is too slow to react to them.
> 
> ...


Actually, the pack leader is not a high stress position. He knows he's pack leader and doesn't need to worry. If he's worrying, he's not pack leader.

Again, you dont gain respect by hurting something. Least of all mine.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

feorag said:


> So where is the ankle biter in any of these dogs in the video? Surely if his purpose was to hurt the dog, he'd be kicking it in the ribs where there isn't any protection because that would hurt, whereas he clearly says in the video using the leg "not to kick, but to touch" - sorry but that's what I'm seeing. As with the behaviour of the different dogs there are varying levels of this nudging - on some of them you can clearly see it isn't his heel making contact at all it's actually the back of his lower leg.


 
You see, the ribs provide the protection. Where he was doing it is a soft, fleshy area.


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> You see cowering as healthy? Why not take it a step further and make them pee themselves while you're on? So when a dog is hung and collapses and pees itself, what do you think about that? Another Cesar classic moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lisa not trying to be funny, but you seem to have a very loose grasp on dog behaviour, social interacion and pack hierachy.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> Actually, the pack leader is not a high stress position. He knows he's pack leader and doesn't need to worry. If he's worrying, he's not pack leader.


Oh how wrong you are.... 

You think the leader of ANY pack of animals can just lie back, bathe in his own glory and enjoy his VIP lifestyle?

Wrong. The leader is responsible for overseeing safety, movement, coordination, hunting and foraging activities, as well as having to frequently reinforce his position as the leader against persistent challenges by subordinates. It has its perks, but being the leader is a high stress, high responsibility position. 

The lower down members of the pack have it made. They know where they are allowed to go, and where they aren't allowed to go. They know when to sleep, eat, forage, hunt, and whether or not they are allowed to breed. They have very little to worry about other than stepping on the alphas "toes."


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I dont claim to be a behaviourist, though. You dont see me finding any job that'll get me famous claiming to be an expert, while doing things like this to dogs:

YouTube - Cesar Milan strangles dog til he collapses

I do know that dogs dont think we're in their pack. I do know you can train a dog without hitting it or pretending to be a dog. I do know abuse when I see it.

The "taps" may not be abuse as such, but they're not training. They're just bullying. If you need to bully your dog to train it, kick it, hang it til it pees itself, it is YOU who has no grasp of dog behaviour.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> So you are saying I don't understand dog behaviour and psychology..... :lol2:
> 
> Dogs gain respect by making sure subordinates know their place, and by fulfilling the role of a good leader. That includes putting them in their place if they overstep the mark, and this involves physical contact quite often, especially if body language cues (such as posture) are ignored or the animal is too slow to react to them.
> 
> ...


No, I repeated some of what you posted. I agree that certain physical contact is good, but Dogs don't use their legs to "tap" each other in the groin area, so people shouldn't do it either.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

snake5007 said:


> No, I repeated some of what you posted. I agree that certain physical contact is good, but Dogs don't use their legs to "tap" each other in the groin area, so people shouldn't do it either.


Very true. Dogs often bite each other.

Imagine the uproar if trainers started doing that..... Tapping with the heel would be seen as tame.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> I do know that dogs dont think we're in their pack. Wrong again. I do know you can train a dog without hitting it or pretending to be a dog.And again. I do know abuse when I see it. And again.
> 
> The "taps" may not be abuse as such, but they're not training. They're just bullying.And again. If you need to bully your dog to train it, kick it, hang it til it pees itself, it is YOU who has no grasp of dog behaviour.


I think you are getting yourself ever so confused.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Whatever, dear. I'm not confused at all, I've posted my information, I dont just believe a little man on the telly.

Telly is not real life, you know. There's this thing called...editing?


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> Says it all really...
> 
> YouTube - Cesar Millan kicking dogs





Amalthea said:


> His methods only work, because he instills fear into those dogs. I truly hate him!


I totally disagree, he does not instil fear.

It's hardly a kick, its a gentle tap.....

Are you for real?

Are you that naive ?


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> Whatever, dear. I'm not confused at all, I've posted my information, I dont just believe a little man on the telly.
> 
> Telly is not real life, you know. There's this thing called...editing?


Like I said in my first post on this thread, I have not watched a single programme starring the man in the posted video. 

I have commented on what I have seen in that video alone. I do not know what other methods that man uses. They may be cruel, they may not be cruel. All I know is that the video posted does not contain a scrap of cruelty.

I think you are still confused as I'm not sure what all this nonsense about tv is referring to.

What I do know however is that I have a very good understanding of animal behaviour stemming from years of training dogs and horses and observing many other species first hand. 

I get my info from experience and hard facts, not the telly.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

What do you think of the video where he hangs a dog til it collapses, peeing itself, gasping for its breath. He says the dog is calm. What do you think?


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## Rackie (Jan 30, 2011)

I have to say, although I don't like Caesar Milan as a trainer (not as a person, I've never met him XD) I don't agree with the way he goes about things, but then maybe there are some dogs who won't respond to any other method.

However, I was confused when watching that video, about the alpha thing. I've always been under the impression that dogs see you as part of their 'pack'. Which is why you should finish a game under your terms, feed yourself before you feed the dogs etc.

He could be a lot more violent...


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> Very true. Dogs often bite each other.
> 
> Imagine the uproar if trainers started doing that..... Tapping with the heel would be seen as tame.


If we're talking about what dogs understand through their social behaviours, which of the above would it understand more? something it expects to happen, or a kick to the groin? Seeing as we're going back to what dogs would do if they were undomesticated and wild, which of the above methods would be best to assert your dominance over a wild caught individual? Neither is very nice, but what would the dog UNDERSTAND more in this hypothetical situation? A kick to the groin isn't a natural experience for a dog, which would go against the grain of your thinking I would imagine.


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

LisaLQ said:


> I dont claim to be a behaviourist, though. You dont see me finding any job that'll get me famous claiming to be an expert, while doing things like this to dogs:
> 
> YouTube - Cesar Milan strangles dog til he collapses
> 
> ...



That's the full clip of the one that bothered me most in the other one. He had no reason to kick, tap, nudge whatever you want to call it, it provoked him into acting that way. Wolves do not strangle other wolves.


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## JackieL (May 19, 2009)

HABU said:


> ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...
> 
> he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...
> 
> ...


Spot on again HABU :notworthy: !


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

snake5007 said:


> If we're talking about what dogs understand through their social behaviours, which of the above would it understand more? something it expects to happen, or a kick to the groin? Seeing as we're going back to what dogs would do if they were undomesticated and wild, which of the above methods would be best to assert your dominance over a wild caught individual? Neither is very nice, but what would the dog UNDERSTAND more in this hypothetical situation? A kick to the groin isn't a natural experience for a dog, which would go against the grain of your thinking I would imagine.


A kick the the groin *area* is a physical contact. Certainly dogs cannot kick each other in the wild, they simply aren't capable, but have you ever seen a dog body slamming another during a disagreement? Physical contact.

Horses often nip or bite each other. I am not able to run up to a horse and bite it, so I use my hands or feet to make contact. Does it matter to the horse that I haven't bitten it? No. It matters to the horse that I have made contact and reinforced my position.

Contact is contact to an animal. It doesn't matter so much if they can't do it in exactly that way, the basis is still the same. 

With regards to choke chains and noose type collars? 100% disagree with them. I have never used one, and will never use them. I see them as a lazy way out of proper training. And yes, proper training to me includes, where necessary, reinforcing leadership and dominance with physical cues.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

JackieL said:


> I totally disagree, he does not instil fear.
> 
> It's hardly a kick, its a gentle tap.....
> 
> ...


We can disagree without me being naive  Some of those dogs looks afraid of him... And Some of those "taps" looked a lot harder than I would consider a "tap" to be. Like I have said in this thread, I do "tap" my dog on his shoulder when he goes into "collie mode" with my hand, but you never heard contact. And you do HEAR a couple of CM's "taps" in the montage. That isn't a "tap" to me.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> A kick the the groin *area* is a physical contact. Certainly dogs cannot kick each other in the wild, they simply aren't capable, but have you ever seen a dog body slamming another during a disagreement? Physical contact.
> 
> Horses often nip or bite each other. I am not able to run up to a horse and bite it, so I use my hands or feet to make contact. Does it matter to the horse that I haven't bitten it? No. It matters to the horse that I have made contact and reinforced my position.
> 
> ...


 
I was talking specifically about what method would be more familiar to a wild caught dog that you were trying to assert dominance over.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> With regards to choke chains and noose type collars? 100% disagree with them. I have never used one, and will never use them. I see them as a lazy way out of proper training. And yes, proper training to me includes, where necessary, reinforcing leadership and dominance with physical cues.


How can you agree with CMs "taps" and not the use of a check chain? They cause the same reaction, and should be used in such a way. Not a lazy way out _at all. _


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

snake5007 said:


> I was talking specifically about what method would be more familiar to a wild caught dog that you were trying to assert dominance over.


I do not feel a dog would better understand a bite than a heel tap when used in the context of reprimanding an undesirable behaviour.

As in my previous post, physical contact it physical contact, and it is understood (when applied correctly) in many forms.

You could take your point further and ponder the question "do animals understand us less because we are not covered in fur and we do not walk on all fours?"


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

LoveForLizards said:


> How can you agree with CMs "taps" and not the use of a check chain? They cause the same reaction, and should be used in such a way. Not a lazy way out _at all. _


The same way I agree with the use of a horsemans stick on horses to tap and move the body, but I disagree with severe bits and the use of spurs (in general) to get the same reaction.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> I do not feel a dog would better understand a bite than a heel tap when used in the context of reprimanding an undesirable behaviour.
> 
> As in my previous post, physical contact it physical contact, and it is understood (when applied correctly) in many forms.
> 
> You could take your point further and ponder the question "do animals understand us less because we are not covered in fur and we do not walk on all fours?"


Actually I was pondering how valid the methods are these days, seeing as most dog breeds were created through captive breeding and weren't wild in the first place. Maybe people overestimate their instincts.


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## Jacs (Jun 7, 2009)

if he did that to my dog i would actually knock him out! in alot of those clips its not untill he kicks the dog it becomes a problem, good example 2:03... that dog didnt do anything wrong untill he was kicked... that man actually winds me up big time, his show is infact banned in our house, and in my opinion should be banned on tv!


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## kellystewart (May 11, 2010)

Apologies as I've not read through the entire thread but seriously...you think he is cruel??? The guy knows dog's bottom line. I have seen him in action in person and he is amazing and his attitude is excellent.

Get a grip people he is giving a correction there is no force behind it. It truly amazes me at the pure hatred that comes out of some of your keyboards. Should be ashamed of yourself!


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

All the people moaning make me laugh and clearly have no experience with headstrong and difficult dogs. The person who said dogs are not basically pack animals is beyond silly Was showing there inexperience and lack of basic knowledge. Ceaser is firm and fair you need to be. If my dogs do wrong they will get a smack if needed just saying no does not cut it. when I was a child a smack made me learn I think people are way to soft with dogs on here.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

kellystewart said:


> Apologies as I've not read through the entire thread but seriously...you think he is cruel??? The guy knows dog's bottom line. I have seen him in action in person and he is amazing and his attitude is excellent.
> 
> Get a grip people he is giving a correction there is no force behind it. It truly amazes me at the pure hatred that comes out of some of your keyboards. Should be ashamed of yourself!


Some of the "corrections" caused the dog to react, which leads to another "correction". A dog can't be corrected unless it knows what it's done wrong, and if the "correction" is the problem you'll be going round in circles. He sets dogs up to fail to make good TV.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

ryanr1987 said:


> All the people moaning make me laugh and clearly have no experience with headstrong and difficult dogs. The person who said dogs are not basically pack animals is beyond silly Was showing there inexperience and lack of basic knowledge. Ceaser is firm and fair you need to be. If my dogs do wrong they will get a smack if needed just saying no does not cut it. when I was a child a smack made me learn I think people are way to soft with dogs on here.


Probably because their dogs are happy and content, so no need to have experience with difficult dogs. I know quite a few dog trainers around here and not once have I seen the kicking or choke lead method used. I see chavs kick dogs though, and I've seen where it leads.


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## Recluso (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm not even going to TOUCH this one. So you can have a pretty picture instead.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Recluso said:


> I'm not even going to TOUCH this one. So you can have a pretty picture instead.
> 
> image


 
Allowing dogs on the furniture makes for dominant animals:whistling2:

Just some of mine in their usual place:lol2:


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## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

Shell195 said:


> Allowing dogs on the furniture makes for dominant animals:whistling2:
> image


:lol2:, i'm surprised you haven't been turned on by the pack, obviously with the huarache your at the bottom. Letting them sit on sofas tut tut. Be careful :lol2::lol2:


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

HABU said:


> ceasar milan knows dogs... he's not cruel... he doesn't hurt the dogs...
> 
> he just gets their attention... breaks their focus...
> 
> ...


Exactly. Totally agree.


HABU said:


> that's kicking?
> 
> kicking a dog would kill it...
> 
> ...


People are idiots, that's why :roll:


quizicalkat said:


> It is almost impossible to put any force behind a 'kick' done at that angle.
> 
> Very sensationalist you tube vid in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Agree with you.

Gosh, the dogs are fine after that...and only idiots believe sensationalised videos MADE on youtube.


Shadowz said:


> The dogs reaction says it all - thats not just getting attention - thats fear and pain.
> In this day and age there is no reason to train with fear , pain and violence when there is so many positive training methods out there.
> 
> And to your last question - He has hurt dogs , dogs have been seriously injured - there is law suits against this man.
> ...


Fear and pain in their reaction? where? All I see is a man nudging a dog and dog stopping what it's doing and paying attention? I don't see cowering or whimpering and crying and trying to run away....I don't know if we're looking at the same thing?

It is not ''violence'' violence: kicking the dog HARD which would result in broken bones, internal bleeding and whatnot, and generally beating the dog painfully. This is nudging a dog to get its attention. Some dogs require physical contact in order to be properly trained.


Shell195 said:


> I went to see him live last year and he seems to attract dogs as they all wanted to be with him and not one showed any fear. I dont agree with all his ways but some of the things he does are excellent


No one's going to agree with every single part of anyone else's training methods...everyone has different methods and not all dogs respond to the same things...variety is the spice of life 


HABU said:


> like tapping on someone's shoulder...
> 
> fear and pain?... try surprise...


:2thumb:


abandonallhope said:


> This.
> 
> You want to break bad behaviour, nothing works better than taking the dog by suprise. It's not fear or pain, it's more like when someone scares you from behind, no harm done, but it certainly takes your mind off whatever you were doing.


Agreed. 

Sometimes 'NO!' doesn't cut it and you HAVE to physically get the dog's attention to reprimand it...my dog being one of them.

It doesn't harm the dog at all.


Amalthea said:


> This is a bit offending, yes? My dog MAY be goofy, but he does listen. :whistling2: Two very different things :2thumb:
> 
> Diesel gets into "collie mode" and I tap him on the shoulder to get his attention, but it's nothing like the force CM seems to use on some of those dogs. *You surely can't hear contact when I "touch" Diesel and you definitely can on a few of those clips.
> *
> I didn't need a highly edited montage of CM to know I don't like him. I've seen several of his shows and didn't like what I see. We are all entitled to an opinion and mine is he's a bully and definitely wouldn't be allowed anywhere near any dog of mine.


You know of a thing called video editting? :whistling2:


feorag said:


> I have to say I totally agree with this.
> 
> I wouldn't call that kicking at all. I can't see any force behind any of those kicks and I never saw one dog's feet leave the ground which they would have done, had it been a 'kick' as we perceive kicks. I agree with Habu that they're attention breakers, as soon as the dog exhibits the behaviour he's trying to correct, he breaks their attention and, to be honest, if it works then I don't see the harm in it. Sorry!
> 
> Like Quizicalkat I'm no great supporter of Milan, but I think this is just sensationalism by video.


Agree with you 


HABU said:


> dogs have one track minds... they can't focus on more than one thing...
> 
> they see the cat... and nothing else... they focus on the owner and nothing else hardly exists...
> 
> ...


The problem is a lot of posters on here seem to get confused between hitting a dog badly for no reason or in a cruel way and tapping/nudging/even a light smack to get the dog's attention and let it know it's done wrong.

They are two different things so a tap does not equal abuse.


abandonallhope said:


> 'An *alpha roll* is a technique used in dog training to discipline a misbehaving dog. It consists of flipping the dog onto its back and holding it in that position, sometimes by the throat. The theory is that this teaches the dog that the trainer is the pack leader (or alpha animal).
> image


I've tried doing the alpha roll on my headstrong staffy as he will not respond to just 'no'...he is very stubborn and needs to be put in his place often. The alpha roll is the most natural and effective way to let a dog know who's in charge. And whoever says it's cruel is obviously a moron.


LisaLQ said:


> Cesar is a TV star, not a dog trainer. A flash of his whitened teeth, and a kick to a dog, that makes him a megastar for numpties.
> 
> *You can train a dog without hurting it or scaring it. And all that dominance and pack ranking crap is just that - a gimmick.*
> 
> ...


I hope to God you aren't serious, but I'm afraid you are?

Have you ever seen wolf pack behaviour? more importantly you do realise the domestic dog is a descendant of the wolf? and no matter how domesticated our dogs are, they STILL retain a lot of wolf characteristics, behaviours and instincts, and pack leadership is evident in domestic dogs and must be established in the home. Gimmick? no, it's called common sense and being educated in your pet's ancestry and behaviour.

This is especially true and effective with the stubborn and dominant breeds...like I said my staffy being VERY headstrong NEEDS an established, dominant pack leader to keep him in his place. It's not a gimmick, it's a fact.



LisaLQ said:


> *All an alpha roll will teach your dog is that next time they should bite you. How are you teaching him to respect you buy pretending you're going to kill him? Because that's what it is - putting your dog in fear of his life, offering his belly to you.*
> 
> You can get respect without hurting or scaring your dog. Gawd, I'm glad I dont have one any more if this is how you're expected to raise them.


You get more idiotic by the minute...

pretending you're going to kill him? and you're actually serious...oh my.

I can't stop laughing at your post...it's upsettingly funny.


Marinam2 said:


> I think ceasars training is brilliant. His techiniques are used quickly efficiently and he gets results rather than following victoria stilwell or the likes and waiting months for the same outcome.
> 
> *Ceasar doesn't kick dogs if he did the dog would cry out in pain and be fearful he uses his foot to tap them. Its the same as yanking on the lead but more humane since the hip has no vital organs in it!!
> *
> ...


Alas, some sense!

but as much sense as we talk in here and try to point out that these are natural behaviours and that NUDGING a dog is not abuse...these people at the other end of the screen will continue to be as smart as a rock.


Charlibob said:


> I really don't know how people can justify alpha rolling a dog, yes its what they do in the wild but they aren't in the wild and we are not dogs!
> 
> When my cats are sick of the other they smack each other around the head to tell them to get away, should I start doing the same :whistling2:


They're not in the wild but they still retain some of those wild behaviours. Are you that ignorant?


HABU said:


> when i got my dog i had to grab her and force her to submit... she was biting folks and owning people... out of control like those fi-fi dogs seem to always do...
> 
> after that she behaved... now i can trust her not to bite... once i knocked her off her pedestal...
> 
> ...


Sometimes dogs need a firm hand to be put in their place and understand that they are below and must do as we say and have boundaries set... some people don;t seem to understand this..


em_40 said:


> well to say that you can't kick with any kind of force at that angle isn't true, I could easily knock my toddler of his feet doing that,


I can't believe you just compared an adult dog to a toddler....

..moving on.


HABU said:


> a bully?
> 
> he bullies dogs eh?
> 
> ...


:lol2::lol2: too true.

I've smacked my dog in the bum sometimes for being naughty..I'm gonna have to go dig up my therapists number for him.



rach666 said:


> totally agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree with you rach! and lovely pooches :flrt:




LisaLQ said:


> I wonder what the pro-kickers would say if the same methods were used on their kids. Still just a tap then?
> 
> I'd like to tap Cesar with my DMs on. Right in his short arse.
> 
> That so sounds better when you use the word kick. Tapping his arse sounds rather sinister. :blush:


pro-kickers? your jokes get better by the hour? you here all week? :lol2:

My god woman you are such a joke.


SexyBear77 said:


> By pro-kickers I assume you mean pro-leadership and respect?
> 
> Because I sure as poop don't see any kicking in that video! :lol2:


:no1: she has no clue.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

for goodness sake, so those who think milan is kicking rather than distracting or correcting, do you same people think any one who rides a horse and kicks it 'on' are cruel violent people as well ?
I have seen more contact in a dressage ring.


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

And on a lighter note...here are my lot :whistling2:


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Allowing dogs on the furniture makes for dominant animals:whistling2:
> 
> Just some of mine in their usual place:lol2:
> image



Shame on you 

Diesel in bed...










And might as well get on the couch, too 










He does, however, have a bed of his own (and this is actually where he goes if you tell him "bed")


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

wohic said:


> for goodness sake, so those who think milan is kicking rather than distracting or correcting, do you same people think any one who rides a horse and kicks it 'on' are cruel violent people as well ?
> I have seen more contact in a dressage ring.


 

BEST comment on the thread.i wasnt gunna come back on as i knew it would wind me up.but everyone entitled to there own opinion (even if some of you do need to go to specsavers)

ive seen much worse things practiced and taught in horsey world,.. but thats acceptable.much worse for a horse as they are flight animals unlike dogs who are predators. surely a horse is going to be more traumatised and stressed at being whipped?than a predator who scavanges and killed for food being shoved my a foot... or being asked to walk on by the dig of a spur dont even get me started on bitless bridles and some artificial aids ive seen used.

it all boils down to most people see dogs as people,famliy members which isnt a bad thing but you have to draw a line we are humans they are dogs. end off.

loving all the pooch pictures!:flrt:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Kat91 said:


> Exactly. Totally agree.
> 
> People are idiots, that's why :roll:
> 
> ...


 

I actually like most of what Cesar Milan does, I even went to see him live when he came to Manchester.
At the end of the day he isnt a dog trainer hes a behavourist who has saved many problem dogs from being euthanised.
My lot have a pack mentality but even though they sleep on the furniture and bed they listen to me and every single one of them is well socialised and friendly with people and other animals.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

snake5007 said:


> Actually I was pondering how valid the methods are these days, seeing as most dog breeds were created through captive breeding and weren't wild in the first place. Maybe people overestimate their instincts.


Seriously?


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

rach666 said:


> BEST comment on the thread.i wasnt gunna come back on as i knew it would wind me up.but everyone entitled to there own opinion (even if some of you do need to go to specsavers)
> 
> ive seen much worse things practiced and taught in horsey world,.. but thats acceptable.much worse for a horse as they are flight animals unlike dogs who are predators. surely a horse is going to be more traumatised and stressed at being whipped?than a predator who scavanges and killed for food being shoved my a foot... or being asked to walk on by the dig of a spur dont even get me started on bitless bridles and some artificial aids ive seen used
> 
> loving all the pooch pictures!:flrt:


By bitless bridles I assume you mean Hackamores? We use Dr Cooks bitless bridles on a few of the horses at work and they are certainly not harsh in any way. 

Apologies if this sounds rude, I'm not well and my wording isn't as good as it should be!


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

SexyBear77 said:


> By bitless bridles I assume you mean Hackamores? We use Dr Cooks bitless bridles on a few of the horses at work and they are certainly not harsh in any way.
> 
> Apologies if this sounds rude, I'm not well and my wording isn't as good as it should be!


 
yes !LOL i was just in a post rage! i knew you and a couple of others would know what i meant!:lol2:


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

rach666 said:


> yes !LOL i was just in a post rage! i knew you and a couple of others would know what i meant!:lol2:


Thought so, just wanted to double check! I've seen some horrendous use of Hackamores by ignorant heavy handed riders who had damaged their horses mouths so badly that they couldn't be ridden with a bit. Makes me sick.


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

SexyBear77 said:


> Thought so, just wanted to double check! I've seen some horrendous use of Hackamores by ignorant heavy handed riders who had damaged their horses mouths so badly that they couldn't be ridden with a bit. Makes me sick.


 
i know! i despise them... but at least times have changed and we have better alternatives!:2thumb:


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## SamSevenFive (Nov 21, 2010)

I can't be arsed to read this whole thread as I've seen similar arguments before in other forums. 

OP: He's not kicking the dog, he's not being cruel to the dog and he's not hurting the dog. It's a technique used to stop the dog from focusing on something that the trainer doesn't want it too. It works.

To all the Cesar Milan haters in the thread using this as an excuse to launch a witch hunt - grow up.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> I think ceasars training is brilliant. His techiniques are used quickly efficiently and he gets results rather than following victoria stilwell or the likes and waiting months for the same outcome.
> 
> *Ceasar doesn't kick dogs if he did the dog would cry out in pain* and be fearful he uses his foot to tap them. Its the same as yanking on the lead but more humane since the hip has no vital organs in it!!
> 
> ...


I've heard many dogs on his programme yelp when kicked by Milan!

I've seen him pin a small dog down with force to get it used to having it's nails trimmed!

:devil:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> image
> that british chick?
> 
> 
> i watch her sometimes... for laughs...


Victoria Stilwell uses training methods that not only are humane, but make the dog think about its actions. So her methods might not get results as quick as Milan's, but they make for a happier dog who understands more.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I wonder what the pro-kickers would say if the same methods were used on their kids. Still just a tap then?
> 
> I'd like to tap Cesar with my DMs on. Right in his short arse.
> 
> That so sounds better when you use the word kick. Tapping his arse sounds rather sinister. :blush:


:lol2: love it!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

sss_180 said:


> Anybody who watches that video and thinks thats abuse is a complete idiot, and if you think its cruel and he's sadistic, then you probably shouldn't own animals, because you probably treat them as if they're human, and they probably need to visit Cesar for behavioural lesson or two :whistling2:
> 
> Seriously, im with Habu and others on here, its SO obvious, are people seriously that naive that they think a nudge is a kick?


Gee, anyone want to take on my 4 dogs then?............


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

rosanna123 said:


> i totally agree, if you watch the video he is not KICKING them, he is just giving them a little tap with his foot to get their attention. i have used this methord with foals at racing studs, it does work and before you all start on me for doing the same as him and saying it is creul, it aint and it is recomended by stud staff.


You kicked foals? Baby horses??? :devil:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Rackie said:


> I have to say, although I don't like Caesar Milan as a trainer (not as a person, I've never met him XD) I don't agree with the way he goes about things, but then maybe there are some dogs who won't respond to any other method.
> 
> However, I was confused when watching that video, about the alpha thing. I've always been under the impression that dogs see you as part of their 'pack'. Which is why you should finish a game under your terms, feed yourself before you feed the dogs etc.
> 
> *He could be a lot more violent*...


How do we know he isn't? Editing out the bits the public really would kick off about? :whistling2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

ryanr1987 said:


> All the people moaning make me laugh and clearly have no experience with headstrong and difficult dogs. The person who said dogs are not basically pack animals is beyond silly Was showing there inexperience and lack of basic knowledge. Ceaser is firm and fair you need to be. *If my dogs do wrong they will get a smack* *if needed just saying no does not cut it.* when I was a child a smack made me learn I think people are way to soft with dogs on here.


I wonder if the RSPCA read this forum......


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

He works mainly with a certain type of dog - bull breeds with aggression issues - which are generally very confident naturally and also really quite tolerant.

If you treated a northern breed like that then I think things might end up going horribly wrong, and I certainly don't think I'd let him near anything at all sensitive or nervous.

Having said that, I'm in no position to judge - but his training ethos is not something that appeals to me.


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## Shadowz (Aug 6, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> I actually like most of what Cesar Milan does, I even went to see him live when he came to Manchester.
> At the end of the day he isnt a dog trainer hes a behavourist who has saved many problem dogs from being euthanised.
> My lot have a pack mentality but even though they sleep on the furniture and bed they listen to me and every single one of them is well socialised and friendly with people and other animals.


I think this is extremely important to touch on.
Cesar is not a behaviourist - he has no qualifications of any kind. 
He is a celebrity television star - nothing more nothing less.
He has no educational background or knowledge about dogs.

I also want it to be made clear that many of us do NOT and i repeat NOT accept or like the treatment of many horses in this country ( whips etc )


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## Shadowz (Aug 6, 2008)

Is your dog trying to dominate your world?
by Rosie Barclay
Have you ever been told that your dog’s behavioural problem is due to it trying to “dominate “you? Have you read or seen on television that your dog is behaving badly because it wants to take over as “Alpha “male?Or told that your dog is defying you to become “leader of the pack”? If the answer is yes then you have to ask yourself are you being given the correct advice. The answer to this is quite simply no you are not. Your dog is not trying to dominate your world; it never has or ever will do. There is no such job description within a group of domestic dogs as “the Dominant Dog, the Alpha Male or Leader of the Pack”. Surprised?
As a certified clinical animal behaviourist (CCAB) and a member of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC) working in Jersey I am hearing more and more from well meaning dog owners that they are worried that their dog is trying to take over this “leader” role and showing problem behaviour as a result. They hear this from celebrated dog trainers on popular television programmes and by reading their respective best selling books so it’s no surprise that the myth of the Alpha male has now circulated widely around the USA and in the UK and is now prominent in Jersey.
This “dominance” theory relating to dogs living in groups has been in circulation for many years and qualified behaviourists throughout the globe have begun to move away from this as it became clear that domestic dog groups simply do not operate in this way.
The “dominance” theory originally stemmed from wolf behaviour in captivity where unrelated wolves are kept together in small areas. Certain wolves in these groups were observed to be showing behaviour that looked as if there was a hierarchy in place. However, research on wild wolves suggests that wolf packs are not rigidly controlled by a single domineering male. A wild pack usually has an alpha pair but most of the rest of the pack is that pair’s offspring. That means the lead male never fought for dominance but merely reproduced. This “father” wolf does not always lead during hunts or in anything else for that matter. The term “alpha” is no longer used because what it implies is not accurate.
Domestic dogs on the other hand have lived with humans for 15,000 years, and they evolved as scavengers, not hunters. So it is not legitimate to compare dogs with wolves and wolf packs. The evolutionary pressure on dogs was that the least shy animals were the most successful in ransacking human refuse. Today's free-roaming dogs live in small, less cohesive groups rather than packs and are often alone. They compete with each other for resources but not for the top position of the pack.
To illustrate this more clearly I will describe a common situation that occurs regularly when I visit households with several dogs and humans living together. It will become obvious very quickly that the owners have been watching the many dog behaviour programmes seen on the television and will tell me that they know who there “dominant” dog is. So I will nod sagely and ask which one that is and the conversation usually goes a bit like this:
“Well Lardy the Labrador is the Alpha male because when he’s eating his dinner he won’t let any of the other dogs or my husband go anywhere near him. Sometimes he growls and goes to snap at them and they keep away.” They stop and think for a while and then continue. “Unless it’s a ball and then Shep the Collie is the boss because he won’t allow any of the other dogs in the house or any other dog in the world for that matter go anywhere near him when he has the ball”. Then the husband might come in at this stage and point out that “When Baby the Pomeranian is sitting on your lap dear she is the boss because she tries to bite me if I try and sit next to you”. At which point I refer back to the original question and ask “So which one is leading your pack again?” And the confusion sets in as to which one is actually leader of the pack and a fierce debate ensues. Of course the answer is none of them are. They are simply defending the resources they are most interested in. Just like any group of humans that find themselves placed together they all have different wants, needs, strengths and weakness’s and they all behave differently to achieve a feeling of contentment. Some dogs are greedier than others so will try hard to find and eat more food. Other dogs need to chase things and will challenge other dogs to make sure they can keep on chasing things. Owners are often viewed as highly prized resources as they are well trained feeding machines, comfy cushions, door openers and they know where the lead is kept. There are dogs that want the lot and are often described as “Leaders” because it looks as if they in control of everything. But that is because they are in control of all the resources and not because they want to “lead the pack”.
So does it matter which words we use to describe this resource holding behaviour? Well yes it does because of the way so called “dominance “problems are being solved by the perpetuators of this belief. If, for instance, you are told your dog is trying to dominate you because it barks and lunges towards other dogs that are approaching, you might be advised to put in place a long list of rules and regulations that “show” your dog who the boss is. These might include you eating before your dog, ignoring your dog for 5 minutes when you come in, not allowing it onto chairs or walking through doors first. However, this only teaches your dog that you are in control of food resources, your own personal space, your settee and the door way. It doesn’t address the problem you dog may have with other dogs. You might then be advised that when another dog approaches to use techniques such as the alpha roll (where your dog is rolled onto its back, a submissive position) or to grab the back of its neck with a firm “Grrrr” or to use a pressure halter and force your dogs head away from the approaching dog. There are also those that advocate the use of shaking containers filled with stones, pet corrector cans that give off a loud ear splitting blast and water/citronella sprays that deliver a shot of water or lemon smelling liquid into your dogs face amongst many other similar suggestions. Some well known celebrity “behaviourists” use of a number of punishment devices and out dated correction techniques that are simply not advised in today’s more enlightened society. Some devices such as the Electric Shock collar have already been banned in Scotland and Wales.
However, what are you really teaching your dog? What if your dog was not barking and lunging at other dogs because it wants to lead the pack. What if it was doing this because it was nervous of the other dog’s intentions so makes sure it tells the other dog not to come too close”? You can’t convince your dog not to be scared of another dog if it gets punished every time it sees one.
What if your dog has learned that all approaching dogs means that it suddenly feels pain as the lead is tightened, a can of stones is shaken, it hears a loud ear splitting sound or receives a spray of stinging liquid in the eye. Or worse still it feels the pain of an electric shock. Just because you the owner has the ability to imagine what might happen next doesn’t mean your dog can. It may never understand that the owner is cross and that bad things happen because of what it might do in a few seconds time. It only learns that when another dog approaches its not a very nice experience so tries to stop it happening by the only way it knows how. My advice to owners if they are unsure of whether to use a certain correction device is “would you use it your children?”
There are some dogs that do try and assert their strengths and challenge other dogs to show how big and strong they are but not because they are trying to “lead the pack” but for a number of other different reasons which might include guarding their ball, their owners, their personal space or they may be doing it because it feels good and thus self rewarding. There are certainly behavioural modification programmes that we can put in place to make sure that our dogs are not challenging us over ownership of certain resources and to stop reinforced self rewarding behaviour but the dogs are not challenging us to reach the mythical “Alpha” position.
To copy the techniques directly from some of these television programmes may by detrimental to the welfare of your dog so before you jump onto the “dominant” bandwagon think about all the authentic reasons why your dog might be showing these behaviours because it won’t be due to it wanting to dominate your world and keep away from anyone who says they know just the way to deal with dominating behaviour alpha males and pack leaders.


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

Zoo-Man said:


> I wonder if the RSPCA read this forum......


Oh no not the RSPCA! I quake in fear at their mighty charity status. I'm sure if they hear about us cruel, evil people that smack our dogs when they are bad will end up burnt at the stake to baying crowds of blood hungry, vegetarian, unwashed, unemployed animal right activists.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> You kicked foals? Baby horses??? :devil:


Its a very common, well understood and humane way of getting them to walk forward.

Horses don't respond to pulling (eg: heaving a headcollar to get them to move forward usually results in the horse digging in its heels and starting a tug of war), they respond to pressure and release. 

When leading a foal from the side of its head a gentle tap with the calf or heel on the flank or hindquarter is a perfect way of keeping up forward motion, just the same as the mare would nip her foal on the bum to keep it line.

Please don't tell me you think this is also cruel?

I have a bad chest and laughing hurts.

Watch this video- see the effect that pulling on the foal slip has
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYWfFytVEqU


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

Shadowz said:


> I think this is extremely important to touch on.
> Cesar is not a behaviourist - he has no qualifications of any kind.
> He is a celebrity television star - nothing more nothing less.
> He has no educational background or knowledge about dogs.
> ...


I have to dissagree he - Having read his (rather poorly written) books he has a qualification that is worth much more than a piece of paper called life experience. He didn't start out as a 'celeb' he started out in the USA as a dog walker and, after people watched the way he handled the larger packs, they ask for help and advice. His 'training' was built up through word of mouth.



abandonallhope said:


> Oh no not the RSPCA! I quake in fear at their mighty charity status. I'm sure if they hear about us cruel, evil people that smack our dogs when they are bad will end up burnt at the stake to baying crowds of blood hungry, vegetarian, unwashed, unemployed animal right activists.
> 
> image


:lol2::lol2::lol2: I suspect I am truely evil:devil:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i know cruelty when i see it... some people see cruelty in everything...

i have used choke chains... had ears cropped... had to grab dogs...

so i am cruel... to some...

raise your dog as you see fit and let others do the same...

dogs aren't pack animals eh?... they don't recognise rank?... dominance is cruel?... touching is assault?...

i have it now... i get it...

so why doesn't someone show me and others just how to raise a pup properly?... straighten us out?... show us what we are doing wrong?

start a blog maybe and teach us how to beg our dogs to behave...

i wonder if the cops and military use these "humane" techniques?

maybe we should treat our dogs like paris hilton... let them sleep till noon and serve them breakfast in bed... have a driver take them around the park and see how the "little dogs" live...?

also, can dogs have champagne?... eclairs?... maybe get mine a hot tub and private residence?...

do they have doggie ipads?... dogs might like them... a little social networking...

if i hurt my dog's feelings should i bring it flowers or take it out to dinner at a fancy restaurant?


collars are probably cruel to some folks...:whip:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

*Why does my dog pull on the lead and how can I stop this?*For a dog, going for walks is exciting and fun. They get to meet other dogs, chase balls and send and read all those lovely pee-mails. They also get to come back to their beloved houses beds and food bowls. It’s no wonder then that your dog wants to get there and often back as quickly as possible. One way your dog can achieve this is by pulling you along on the end of a lead with you shouting “heal” at the top of your voice and if by pulling it gets to go forwards then pulling is what it will do next time. So every time you allow it to pull you are reinforcing that behaviour. What your dog is not doing is pulling because it wants to show you who is the boss by trying to lead the pack (see last blog). 
So to stop your dog pulling only ever allow it to go forwards when it is not pulling “simples” as that meercat says on the TV advert. Stand still and wait until your dog had stopped pulling and when the lead is loose walk forwards again. Use a good length of lead and do not wrap it around your wrist or keep it overly short. Of course your dog will pull again so you repeat this many times until it learns that pulling the lead tight does not achieve anything. Do not pull your dog back. If you keep pulling your dog back (known as checking ) all your dog will learn is that to go forwards it has to pull, be pulled back and then pull again and you will probably spend the next 14 years having your arms pulled out of your sockets. After a few sessions your bright dog will quickly learn that the best way to get you to go forwards is to not to tighten and pull on its lead. All you have to use is a good length of lead and a wide normal collar. You should not need any fancy collars or halters and definitely no choke chains or worse shock collars. These quick fixes may make the dog stop pulling as it is physically restrained but may not teach the dog to stop pulling because it wants to. With a little patience and great timing you will end up with a dog that no longer pulls and who walks nicely on a loose lead and be the envy of the park. 

ms. barclay's method...

i just don't see it...


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## sss_180 (Jan 29, 2010)

See, what i don't understand is why some of the people on this thread can't learn, I can learn, when i have something in my mind and am certain i am right, it takes someone showing me, even leading me down the path to realise that im wrong, and that perhaps i should listen to all arguments before making my decision of where to stand. 

I was anti hunt, im now pro - so theres a big change to begin with... (but we wont go into that on this thread)

If the anti Cesar people in this thread can honestly not take a step back and see _our_ point of view, then they're being completely ignorant and its a real shame, because you could learn so much.

If you honestly watch that video and think he is kicking the dogs and causing them harm, rather than surprise, then i actually pity you, because your lives must be very upsetting, to see all this _cruelty_ in the world, every single day, everywhere you go...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

*My dog won’t stop barking at people as they walk past the gate. How do I stop him?*

Take him out for more walks and *do not allow him access to the gate*. Most “garden gate” dogs do this, they bark, the person carries on walking past, dog has won as man has gone and dog feels good so does it again the next time. This whole process is reinforcing as every time he barks he is rewarded since the man goes and so the more he will do it the next time. Collie types are often quite busy dogs and if you don’t have them working for you they generally go self-employed and make up their own fun. Take dog from gate and spend more time doing fun things together.

dog barks at people through the gate?

just don't allow him near the gate!... problem solved!:lol2:

how about maybe a correction?... a loud "NO!" maybe when he barks?

just don't let him near the gate... great philosophy...

"my dog bites people... whatever can i do"?


answer:... don't allow him near people! haha!


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> Seriously?


I'm not saying that's what I think, I just like discussing things like that. It's not an impossibility considering how long they've been around humans for.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my dogs don't have a therapist...

am i cruel?

everyone that is anyone has a therapist these days.... my dogs may begin to feel inadequate around other dogs who have therapists...


maybe a personal trainer?... that might be a good idea... my girls can get a workout and maintain those curves!


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

Shadowz said:


> Is your dog trying to dominate your world?
> by Rosie Barclay
> Have you ever been told that your dog’s behavioural problem is due to it trying to “dominate “you? Have you read or seen on television that your dog is behaving badly because it wants to take over as “Alpha “male?Or told that your dog is defying you to become “leader of the pack”? If the answer is yes then you have to ask yourself are you being given the correct advice. The answer to this is quite simply no you are not. Your dog is not trying to dominate your world; it never has or ever will do. There is no such job description within a group of domestic dogs as “the Dominant Dog, the Alpha Male or Leader of the Pack”. Surprised?
> As a certified clinical animal behaviourist (CCAB) and a member of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC) working in Jersey I am hearing more and more from well meaning dog owners that they are worried that their dog is trying to take over this “leader” role and showing problem behaviour as a result. They hear this from celebrated dog trainers on popular television programmes and by reading their respective best selling books so it’s no surprise that the myth of the Alpha male has now circulated widely around the USA and in the UK and is now prominent in Jersey.
> ...


 
Interesting post. :2thumb:


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Sooo many 'expert' dog trainers on this thread.
I'd love to see their dogs on a walk.: victory:


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

just re-read a lot of this thread and tbh im a bit shocked, not about whether training methods are cruel or not, but about the attitudes of some people, 'my method of training is the only correct way, if your not using it you must have badly behaved/scared dogs'. iv never seen ceaser milans tv shows (only dog based program i watch is dog borstal, and not just due to very embarrasing crush on mick martin:blush and victoria whatshername's voice annoys me but if both are producing happy well behaved dogs at the end of it whats the problem?

i'l freely admit i dont know much about dog training, but surely one method does not fit all? what works for one dog wont work for another? i do alot of work with horses from all backgrounds (currently looking after one thats come from a well respected stud, and one thats just come off the moors), both need teaching how to walk correctly on a lead rope and both there stable manners are definately in need of improvement. am i going to use the same method with both? no, because experience tells me what will work with one wont work with the other.

possibly just agree to disagree on this one?


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## sss_180 (Jan 29, 2010)

miss_ferret said:


> just re-read a lot of this thread and tbh im a bit shocked, not about whether training methods are cruel or not, but about the attitudes of some people, 'my method of training is the only correct way, if your not using it you must have badly behaved/scared dogs'. iv never seen ceaser milans tv shows (only dog based program i watch is dog borstal, and not just due to very embarrasing crush on mick martin:blush and victoria whatshername's voice annoys me but if both are producing happy well behaved dogs at the end of it whats the problem?
> 
> i'l freely admit i dont know much about dog training, but surely one method does not fit all? what works for one dog wont work for another? i do alot of work with horses from all backgrounds (currently looking after one thats come from a well respected stud, and one thats just come off the moors), both need teaching how to walk correctly on a lead rope and both there stable manners are definately in need of improvement. am i going to use the same method with both? no, because experience tells me what will work with one wont work with the other.
> 
> possibly just agree to disagree on this one?


Its not about what the correct way to train a dog is. Its about people thinking a nudge (to snap a dog out of its destructive behaviour) is a kick and is animal abuse.... Some people cant except that a nudge is a nudge, a kick is a kick, surprise and pain are not the same thing...


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

sss_180 said:


> Its not about what the correct way to train a dog is. Its about people thinking a nudge (to snap a dog out of its destructive behaviour) is a kick and is animal abuse.... Some people cant except that a nudge is a nudge, a kick is a kick, surprise and pain are not the same thing...


Surprise and pain are different to people, but can a dog differentiate between the two? Humanising dogs works both ways.


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## Shadowz (Aug 6, 2008)

sss_180 said:


> If the anti Cesar people in this thread can honestly not take a step back and see _our_ point of view, then they're being completely ignorant and its a real shame, because you could learn so much.
> .


So you want us to step back and see your views but you are not willing to step back and see ours.
What make your views more important or right then ours ?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

miss_ferret said:


> just re-read a lot of this thread and tbh im a bit shocked, not about whether training methods are cruel or not, but about the attitudes of some people, 'my method of training is the only correct way, if your not using it you must have badly behaved/scared dogs'. iv never seen ceaser milans tv shows (only dog based program i watch is dog borstal, and not just due to very embarrasing crush on mick martin:blush and victoria whatshername's voice annoys me but if both are producing happy well behaved dogs at the end of it whats the problem?
> 
> i'l freely admit i dont know much about dog training, but surely one method does not fit all? what works for one dog wont work for another? i do alot of work with horses from all backgrounds (currently looking after one thats come from a well respected stud, and one thats just come off the moors), both need teaching how to walk correctly on a lead rope and both there stable manners are definately in need of improvement. am i going to use the same method with both? no, because experience tells me what will work with one wont work with the other.
> 
> possibly just agree to disagree on this one?


by all accounts my dogs should be scared...

but they are calm and relaxed... chilled actually...



no one has told them that they have been abused apparently...:whistling2:












poor thing!


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

HABU said:


> by all accounts my dogs should be scared...
> 
> but they are calm and relaxed... chilled actually...
> 
> ...


im not saying they are, but if your dog responded badly to one training method wouldnt you have tried another? or would you have thought that there was only one correct way to train it?

and your dog is the spitting image of my grandads old one :flrt: it hated me but i loved it...


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I've heard many dogs on his programme yelp when kicked by Milan!
> 
> I've seen him pin a small dog down with force to get it used to having it's nails trimmed!
> 
> :devil:


My GSD yelps at the lightest of nudges...she's a real big girl, don't mean she's in pain.


Zoo-Man said:


> Victoria Stilwell uses training methods that not only are humane, but make the dog think about its actions. So her methods might not get results as quick as Milan's, but they make for a happier dog who understands more.


She uses choke collars :whistling2:


Zoo-Man said:


> I wonder if the RSPCA read this forum......


Instead of being out there helping dogs and animals in need of rescuing? :lol2: why the hell do you even think they would spend their time on a reptile forum?!


abandonallhope said:


> Oh no not the RSPCA! I quake in fear at their mighty charity status. I'm sure if they hear about us cruel, evil people that smack our dogs when they are bad will end up burnt at the stake to baying crowds of blood hungry, vegetarian, unwashed, unemployed animal right activists.
> 
> image


:lol2::lol2:

they're probably watching us right now :gasp: and tracking us down to gather us and cut us into bits in front of the angry mob!


quizicalkat said:


> I have to dissagree he - Having read his (rather poorly written) books he has a qualification that is worth much more than a piece of paper called life experience. He didn't start out as a 'celeb' he started out in the USA as a dog walker and, after people watched the way he handled the larger packs, they ask for help and advice. His 'training' was built up through word of mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2::lol2::lol2: I suspect I am truely evil:devil:


Exactly what I was going to say. A piece of paper sometimes mean f*** all if it's not accompanied with real life experience...I know who I'd rather train my do afterall..

Anyone can get a piece of paper to say they've 'passed'...theory can be a piece of cake...real life on the other hand..


HABU said:


> i know cruelty when i see it... some people see cruelty in everything...
> 
> i have used choke chains... had ears cropped... had to grab dogs...
> 
> ...


We've used choke chains too...and you know what? Our two dogs (haven't used them on the staffy) are well-behaved and happy dogs, they're not the perfect dogs but I know they're happy and that's enough for me.


HABU said:


> my dogs don't have a therapist...
> 
> am i cruel?
> 
> ...


:lol2: love it!


Caz said:


> Sooo many 'expert' dog trainers on this thread.
> I'd love to see their dogs on a walk.: victory:


Me too...I don't claim myself to be an ''expert'' but I am open to different methods and if something works then it works. Like I said my dogs are nowhere near your perfectly trained dogs but we're all happy  and we still continue to train them and should probably train them more but that's our fault not theirs or the methods we use.

I'd love all these ''experts'' to take on my stubborn staffy for a day :whistling2:


miss_ferret said:


> just re-read a lot of this thread and tbh im a bit shocked, not about whether training methods are cruel or not, but about the attitudes of some people, 'my method of training is the only correct way, if your not using it you must have badly behaved/scared dogs'. iv never seen ceaser milans tv shows (only dog based program i watch is dog borstal, and not just due to very embarrasing crush on mick martin:blush and victoria whatshername's voice annoys me but if both are producing happy well behaved dogs at the end of it whats the problem?
> 
> i'l freely admit i dont know much about dog training, but surely one method does not fit all? what works for one dog wont work for another? i do alot of work with horses from all backgrounds (currently looking after one thats come from a well respected stud, and one thats just come off the moors), both need teaching how to walk correctly on a lead rope and both there stable manners are definately in need of improvement. am i going to use the same method with both? no, because experience tells me what will work with one wont work with the other.
> 
> possibly just agree to disagree on this one?


This is what I was trying to get across with my earlier post...''this methods wrong, that methods wrong'' no it isn't...if it works for you and your dog and you're both happy in the end then it's not wrong! people need to accept the fact that it's not a 'one fits all' situation, and different dogs, breeds and people and situations will only benefit from certain methods, and it's our job to try and find the method that works best for us...and to remember that just because it works for us doesn't mean it'll work for someone else...so we have no right to point our finger at them and say 'that's wrong you HAVE to do it my way because my way works and yours is wrong'...let people to their methods that work for them and their dog, as long as it's not actual cruelty (not a nudge or tap for god's sake)


HABU said:


> by all accounts my dogs should be scared...
> 
> but they are calm and relaxed... chilled actually...
> 
> ...


Look at the poor dog, you can see the fear and terror in its eyes  HABU you bad, bad man! you better hope the RSPCA isn't watching you! :naughty:


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## sss_180 (Jan 29, 2010)

Shadowz said:


> So you want us to step back and see your views but you are not willing to step back and see ours.
> What make your views more important or right then ours ?


Before i even made a comment i watched the video clip, and read through 11 pages of differing peoples views.
I came to the conclusion that Cesar is not being abusive towards the animals, he is merely breaking their concentration, with a nudge, tap, etc He is not causing the animals any pain that would be displayed by said animal via distress yelp.

If you can not see the logic in this, after reading everyones opinions (most of whom say they don't necessarily agree with his methods) on alpha rolling, wolf packs, animal behaviour and training, then i think you are not willing to except the reality of this ridiculous thread.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

rules, boundries and limitations are what cesar always tells the people he's working with...

a dog needs structure and order... a solid, fair and firm leader...



no means no... no is the second thing i teach a pup... right after it's name...

start with the very basics...


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Id much rather use liver to get a dogs attention =D

A family member on mine has just taken on a dog who is a nervous wreck and shes only 18 month old ( probably less ), if you raise your hand she shakes and wee herself, if you raise your voice she runs for the nearest hiding place or make any sharp movement.

The owner of the dog is actually the family members son who claims to know everything just because hes read a couple of C.Milians books and watched him on TV.

I dont speak to him and never will because i really cant stand him and if i were to speak to him id tell him eactaly what i thought of him causing arguments between the family so i just bite my tounge when hes around.

I started working with the collie cross on the Sunday thats just gone, luckly where the dog lives now there a huge field which is fenced all around with a basket ball court in it which is also fenced in so i was able to let the dog off the lead without it going too far.

All was good when it was just me and her but getting to the field was a whole different story.

She went for 3 people was walking past, almost tripped me trying to get away from another dog that was on the other side of the road and stopped still as soon as a car went past.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Forgot to add although not technically qualified as a behaviorist by ways on qualification, i,ve worked with 100's of dogs with a mix of age, breed and temperment. 

I haven't once been badly bitten and have never had to resort to "Tapping/Kicking" a dog to get its attention.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Love this thread - it's all that's right and wrong with RFUK forums!!

Can't some people 'agree to disagree'?

My view (for what it's worth - probably jack :censor: to most ) is that a dog is a dog..... Just a dog, an animal, domesticated by man over many centuries.

It isn't human and doesn't respond any more to human thoughts and feelings any more than you respond to dogs thoughts or feelings, or indeed your snakes, or lizards, or goldfish's.
It responds as a dog, to inputs around it. So it sees a cat and wants to chase it instinctively in most cases, unless someone has overridden that instinct by training and/or socialisation. 
Some dogs behave in a humanised environment better than others, but would probably be crap at what nature originally intended them to do.
Others don't live happily in a human world, but would possibly be fantastic elsewhere. I suppose what I am saying is - none of us are always right, or wrong. Remember the phrase 'even a broken clock is right at least twice a day'.
As long as animals are not being abused, then all is good.

I was once told I shouldn't have a springer spaniel as I work a standard 8-9 hr day and he would be alone too long. I was also told he needed walking at least 2 hrs a day. Sorry but that's bull..... He sleeps all day while I am at work ( I know as I have set up a camera !) He gets walked each night for an hour or so. If you can honestly say to me that this dog is living life unhappily then you had a very different viewpoint to me.... That would be fine by the way, hold your viewpoint, but please don't force it onto me! Otherwise you are essentially The Taliban or Jehovahs Witnesses, trying to force YOUR viewpoint onto others.
I remember what I told the Jehovahs guys last time they knocked on my door too, second word was off......

We can do things differently - more than one way to skin a cat as they say. 
Same outcome, different way to get there


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Forgot to add although not technically qualified as a behaviorist by ways on qualification, i,ve worked with 100's of dogs with a mix of age, breed and temperment.
> 
> I haven't once been badly bitten and have never had to resort to "Tapping/Kicking" a dog to get its attention.


so what do you do when walking a dog and it starts to get excited about the squirrel in the tree next to you?

just hang on?... don't do anything to get his attention off the squirrel?

what do you do when the dog's attention goes to that dog across the street?

when it begins to tug and is about to go for the other dog?


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Forgot to add although not technically qualified as a behaviorist by ways on qualification, i,ve worked with 100's of dogs with a mix of age, breed and temperment.
> 
> I haven't once been badly bitten and have never had to resort to "Tapping/Kicking" a dog to get its attention.


So you've been bitten?

I've worked with dogs for years, sadly not as a career anymore, and I've never once been bitten because I control the situation and read the dog. If you've been bitten in play or your hands gotten in the way ok but any other reason and you need to work on your handling.

Also I notice you have a dobermann trust banner in your sig, do you have anything to do with them? If so how do you handle the dobies? A very dominant breed like that needs a firm hand.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

abandonallhope said:


> So you've been bitten?
> 
> I've worked with dogs for years, sadly not as a career anymore, and I've never once been bitten because I control the situation and read the dog. If you've been bitten in play or your hands gotten in the way ok but any other reason and you need to work on your handling.


He said "And I haven't once been badly bitten". That, to me, implies that maybe he has been bitten. Obviously not seriously enough for his handling to be called into question, the keyword being "badly".


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

snake5007 said:


> He said "And I haven't once been badly bitten". That, to me, implies that maybe he has been bitten. Obviously not seriously enough for his handling to be called into question, the keyword being "badly".


In my book theres no reason to be bitten full stop. If your doing something that makes a dog respond by bitting you then your doing something wrong. If you have a dog thats known to be aggressive and you need to hold it down for vet treatment etc then you muzzle it. If you back a dog into a corner or scare and get bitten then you misread the situation and the dog.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

abandonallhope said:


> In my book theres no reason to be bitten full stop. If your doing something that makes a dog respond by bitting you then your doing something wrong. If you have a dog thats known to be aggressive and you need to hold it down for vet treatment etc then you muzzle it. If you back a dog into a corner or scare and get bitten then you misread the situation and the dog.


 
Do I need to quote the post where you say it's acceptable to be bitten if it's play?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

YouTube - Cesar Milan strangles dog til he collapses


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

My opinions right. You're all wrong.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

YouTube - Beyond the Red Zone


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

snake5007 said:


> Do I need to quote the post where you say it's acceptable to be bitten if it's play?


Puppies mouth and nip, it's behaviour that should be corrected but is totally natural. You can quote whatever you want.: victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i like victoria stilwell's methods...

if a dog is misbehaving... just ignore it... 

hmm... sounds good to me...

your dog barks at everything?... just ignore it and the barking will stop...

eureka!:no1:

i'm going to open my own dog training school... using the ignore the problem method of victoria's...

i should make a mint!


dog chases cars?... just ignore the behavior... attacks others?... just ignore it!:lol2:

kitchen is on fire?... just ignore it!:2thumb:


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## abandonallhope (Jun 19, 2009)

HABU said:


> i like victoria stilwell's methods...
> 
> if a dog is misbehaving... just ignore it...
> 
> ...


Rabid rabbits taking over the world.

Ignore it?


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

It's difficult. Obviously, ideally, I think there are very few owners who actively want to have to use any form of force when 'training' or disciplining their pet, but I think that it depends on so, so many factors, a lot of which have already been mentioned in the thread. 

As for me, I have tried to strike a balance with Willit. He's a husky/malamute cross and a very, very stubborn creature. He does very little, if anything, purely to 'please' me and instead has to be coerced into pretty much any form of positive behaviour. I'm fortunate in that he's a generally friendly dog but raising him has been really, really hard. Whenever I'm out walking him on his lead and he sees another dog coming towards him he goes right down on his belly, which is his 'play' position as, when the dog passes him, he then jumps towards it to try to play. While he could be a lot worse in regards to his behaviour around other dogs, I still don't think it's acceptable to let him jump towards other dogs, especially if we're passing people on a narrow path, or if the other dog is intimidated. Despite the fact that Willit is always on his lead, it's still practically impossible for me to control him if he leaps towards others. 

Willit weighs a few pounds less than me. He is huge and, despite my best efforts, there are times when all his training just goes out the window and he just goes into his 'wanting to play, nothing else matters mode.' In those kind of situations I have little other option than to physically drag him from his crouching position and hurriedly walk past the other dog/s all the while distracting him and keeping him on the other side of me. This requires me to, obviously, physically pull him against his will. He would far rather lay there of his own accord. No amount of encouragement will budge him. I have tried, believe me. I have tried leaving him laying and then offering him treats if he moves of his own accord... well, he doesn't. I think then that the responsible thing to do as an owner is to ensure that he doesn't intimidate or cause a nuisance to any other owner and dog trying to enjoy their walk. I have little option other than to pull him along and he is so, so stubborn that he will grunt and moan while I'm trying to do so. Could this be interpreted as cruelty? 

I give this example as I think that there are instances when physical intervention (and note, I am NOT saying hitting/slapping/kicking etc) is seemingly necessary, such is the case with a stubborn 9 stone dog waiting to pounce and try to play with an old lady's dog innocently walking past. 

It's difficult because there are some people that could probably see me trying to pull him out of the way and feel sorry for him; thinking that he should be left to his own accord, but I've always tried to administer an adequate amount of discipline and praise. I would never, ever hit/kick/slap him, but I would nudge him out of the way with my foot if there was reason to. I will always, always use positive reinforcement, encouragement etc. where feasible, but then there will also be times when I'll have to raise my voice at him. I just think there has to be a balance, but with this balance comes the issue of subjectivity. 'Punishment' and 'cruelty' comes in various forms and what could be interpreted as someone, for example, yanking a grumbling dog out of the way of being a nuisance to a passing dog as cruelty, can be seen as the only effective way of avoiding a situation where another dog/bystander could be intimidated or bothered on their walk.

This is a long-winded example but what I'm trying to get to is that I think that it can be, at times, idealistic to assume that any dog can be wholly controlled by voice, positive reinforcement and encouragement alone. While I believe this should be striven towards and that physical intervention should only be a last resort, if anything, I think that a lot of debates arise from the fact that the individual dog in question plays such a large role in it.


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I wonder if the RSPCA read this forum......





Zoo-Man said:


> You kicked foals? Baby horses??? :devil:


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

abandonallhope said:


> Puppies mouth and nip, it's behaviour that should be corrected but is totally natural. You can quote whatever you want.: victory:


Exactly, but in one post it was ok and in another it was unacceptable. I wasn't totally sure what your point was.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

a relationship with a dog shouldn't be adversarial... the master and dog should be a team... work together... be on the same page.

a close bond when still a pup will be the key to success... a dog should want to please it's master... they should complement one another...

a dog should watch his master and anticipate things... so should the master do his dog...

best friends is just that... all this proper way stuff misses the point...

training?... it's just second nature...


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

HABU said:


> a relationship with a dog shouldn't be adversarial... the master and dog should be a team... work together... be on the same page.
> 
> a close bond when still a pup will be the key to success... a dog should want to please it's master... they should complement one another...
> 
> ...


:gasp: now that, I totally disagree with! sicko :naughty:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Kat91 said:


> :gasp: now that, I totally disagree with! sicko :naughty:


 
sicko eh?

what makes me a sicko?


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Thought it would be best to answer some of these =D



HABU said:


> so what do you do when walking a dog and it starts to get excited about the squirrel in the tree next to you?
> 
> just hang on?... don't do anything to get his attention off the squirrel?
> 
> ...


*I use head halti's when training a simple tugo on that, " leave it" command, make it face the other way and distract with a liver treat ( real liver which i cook myself ) ive not yet come across a dog that doesnt like liver.*

*I have used "choker chains" aswel, correctly might i add as ive taken the time to learn how to use them properly and only use them with owners consent ( i tend to stick to head halt's tho)*



abandonallhope said:


> So you've been bitten?
> 
> I've worked with dogs for years, sadly not as a career anymore, and I've never once been bitten because I control the situation and read the dog. If you've been bitten in play or your hands gotten in the way ok but any other reason and you need to work on your handling. .


*Because a lot of this was through a pound enviroment, there have been times to begin with where ive mis read a dog or glanced the other way for a second and moved to close to the dog and with no way of escape charged at me.*

*This have only ever been nips and near misses tho plus i was taught to always take a hand brush in with me incase i needed it for the dog to bite that rather than me again i needed to be quick on my feet.*

*The first day i started at the kennels i was nippe dont he arse by a GSD that i was told way fine, being naive and 16 i went ago with what other people said but from that day i started ot make my own minds up on the dogs and my views were quickly accepted.*



snake5007 said:


> He said "And I haven't once been badly bitten". That, to me, implies that maybe he has been bitten. Obviously not seriously enough for his handling to be called into question, the keyword being "badly".


*Never serious enough to warrant a hosptial visit anyway, Plus baggy loose clothing helped when it came to near misses.*



abandonallhope said:


> Also I notice you have a dobermann trust banner in your sig, do you have anything to do with them? If so how do you handle the dobies? A very dominant breed like that needs a firm hand.


*Although i dont own a Dobie yet ( my dad is scared of rotties LOL ), from what im aware of teh rescue is fairly new and has only just branched out from aother Dobie rescue but the person that owns the one in my sig has her own, Ive come across a fair amount of Dobermanns within the pound too and know how to handle myself around these types of breeds, but thanks for you opinion and concerns.*


*Hope that covers everything :S*

*Edit to add:*
*O and if failing to grab the dogs attention i also used water bottles and water guns depning of if i rmember to bring the gun, Nice bit of cold waters in the face doesnt do as much harm as kicking *


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

HABU said:


> sicko eh?
> 
> what makes me a sicko?


you know "doing" your dog :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Noticed a few quotes from Zoo-Man ( sorry i still forget you name now even tho ive read the recent happens) about "foal beating"

When i worked at the kennel there was a woman there that kept horses and she and her family admitted to hitting the horses and i remember one story of one of her mares giving birth and rejecting the foal so instead of getting off her fat lazy arse and attempting to hand rear it she decided to beat the mare into accepting it.

This is just one of hundreds of stories shes told me and now shes got her own kennels so god only knows how she treats peoples dogs.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

Kat91 said:


> :gasp: now that, I totally disagree with! sicko :naughty:


I think he meant something else. :lol2:


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## Kat91 (Sep 19, 2008)

snake5007 said:


> I think he meant something else. :lol2:


I know, t'was a joke but it failed


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Noticed a few quotes from Zoo-Man ( sorry i still forget you name now even tho ive read the recent happens) about "foal beating"
> 
> When i worked at the kennel there was a woman there that kept horses and she and her family admitted to hitting the horses and i remember one story of one of her mares giving birth and rejecting the foal so instead of getting off her fat lazy arse and attempting to hand rear it she decided to beat the mare into accepting it.
> 
> This is just one of hundreds of stories shes told me and now shes got her own kennels so god only knows how she treats peoples dogs.


Not sure where the quotes regarding horse "beating" are, there was something mentioned about a humane way of getting foals to move though.

However, whilst the woman shouldn't have beaten the mare, raising a foal by hand in an *incredibly *easy thing to get wrong, and in most cases ends up with the foal displaying "orphan foal syndrome"- being pushy, nippy, domineering and pretty much downright dangerous. Many horses like this end up abandoned, dumped or shot.

Horses need their own kind during the "critical period" of growing up or they turn into weirdoes with a whole heap of emotional and mental issues. Honestly. Bottle raising a foal would be the last on my list of things to try in the case of a rejection.


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## snake5007 (Apr 13, 2008)

Kat91 said:


> I know, t'was a joke but it failed


I found it funny.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

SexyBear77 said:


> Not sure where the quotes regarding horse "beating" are, there was something mentioned about a humane way of getting foals to move though.
> 
> However, whilst the woman shouldn't have beaten the mare, raising a foal by hand in an *incredibly *easy thing to get wrong, and in most cases ends up with the foal displaying "orphan foal syndrome"- being pushy, nippy, domineering and pretty much downright dangerous. Many horses like this end up abandoned, dumped or shot.
> 
> Horses need their own kind during the "critical period" of growing up or they turn into weirdoes with a whole heap of emotional and mental issues. Honestly. Bottle raising a foal would be the last on my list of things to try in the case of a rejection.


Didnt have time to go through whole thread just glanced at it so i could of got it wrong.

TBH im not that clued up on horses and hand rearing them but hey ho you learn something new everyday.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> *Why does my dog pull on the lead and how can I stop this?*For a dog, going for walks is exciting and fun. They get to meet other dogs, chase balls and send and read all those lovely pee-mails. They also get to come back to their beloved houses beds and food bowls. It’s no wonder then that your dog wants to get there and often back as quickly as possible. One way your dog can achieve this is by pulling you along on the end of a lead with you shouting “heal” at the top of your voice and if by pulling it gets to go forwards then pulling is what it will do next time. So every time you allow it to pull you are reinforcing that behaviour. What your dog is not doing is pulling because it wants to show you who is the boss by trying to lead the pack (see last blog).
> So to stop your dog pulling only ever allow it to go forwards when it is not pulling “simples” as that meercat says on the TV advert. Stand still and wait until your dog had stopped pulling and when the lead is loose walk forwards again. Use a good length of lead and do not wrap it around your wrist or keep it overly short. Of course your dog will pull again so you repeat this many times until it learns that pulling the lead tight does not achieve anything. Do not pull your dog back. If you keep pulling your dog back (known as checking ) all your dog will learn is that to go forwards it has to pull, be pulled back and then pull again and you will probably spend the next 14 years having your arms pulled out of your sockets. After a few sessions your bright dog will quickly learn that the best way to get you to go forwards is to not to tighten and pull on its lead. All you have to use is a good length of lead and a wide normal collar. You should not need any fancy collars or halters and definitely no choke chains or worse shock collars. These quick fixes may make the dog stop pulling as it is physically restrained but may not teach the dog to stop pulling because it wants to. With a little patience and great timing you will end up with a dog that no longer pulls and who walks nicely on a loose lead and be the envy of the park.
> 
> ms. barclay's method...
> ...


This is a very good method of training a dog not to pull on the lead. It makes the dog think about what it has to do to get to where it wants to go.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

good dogs...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Kat91 said:


> My GSD yelps at the lightest of nudges...she's a real big girl, don't mean she's in pain.
> 
> *She uses choke collars* :whistling2:
> 
> ...


Don't think so


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

HABU said:


> i like victoria stilwell's methods...
> 
> if a dog is misbehaving... just ignore it...
> 
> ...


Ignoring behaviours you do not want to occur is not as black & white as that.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Kat91 said:


> image


There was actually some humour in my posts that you've quoted! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

hahaha!!!!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)




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