# bio-active substrate content for Cresties



## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

Decisions, decisions :hmm:
What exactly should my substrate consist of?

I have seen lots of variations, but in your experience what works best.
I will be adding springtails and woodlice to the viv too.

Thanks in advance :2thumb:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

The minimium you need is woodlice and springtails, then you can add anything else you want. 

Mine have roachs, millipede species, beetles and other little bugs

jay


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks Jay. What is your soil made up of?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I usually use a mixture of orchid bark and leafmould (the broken-down part under the actual leaves). I've started adding cocofibre to it, as I find that this stops it squidging down. You'll probably need a drainage layer, too- leca (clay pellets) is good, and lighter than gravel, although that works just as well. Separate the soil from the drainage with something that will let water but not soil through- weed mat can work well, but I usually use a piece of nylon net curtain, cut to size. The drainage stops the whole thing going sour.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Rons covered most of it. 

You will more then likly need a derainage layer to remove excess water. 

Soile i use organic compost and coco fibre, with leafmould, rotting leaves, rotting white wood and sticks (instead of orchid bark). The sticks are free and allow drainge through the substrate. 

jay


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## harlequin (Oct 28, 2008)

Hi guys,

Im planning on setting up bioactive substrates in with my cresties as well, was planning to use a layer of hydroleca and chondro13's substrate recipe of 30% orchid bark, 30% peat free compost and 30% coconut fibre but I was wondering about the other stuff you put in (chondro calls it NOM - natural organic matter lol) eg the leaf mould, rotting leaves, rotting wood etc presumably you just go and collect this from your nearest woods but do you treat it before you add it to the tanks and if so how?

Also Im getting really confused about exactly which bugs I need to buy and how many? There seem to be so many different types of woodlice etc (looking on here Dartfrog - Livefoods). Im planning on doing a 45x60 exo terra, 45x45 and 30x30 all at the same time but have no idea how many bugs i'll need lol sorry for the questions! Im sure they seem silly once you've done a few of these but its so daunting doing it for the first time because your so desperate to get it right!

Jess


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

harlequin said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Im planning on setting up bioactive substrates in with my cresties as well, was planning to use a layer of hydroleca and chondro13's substrate recipe of 30% orchid bark, 30% peat free compost and 30% coconut fibre but I was wondering about the other stuff you put in (chondro calls it NOM - natural organic matter lol) eg the leaf mould, rotting leaves, rotting wood etc presumably you just go and collect this from your nearest woods but do you treat it before you add it to the tanks and if so how?
> 
> ...


Have a read of this

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/planted-vivariums/659337-bio-active-substrates-how-why.html

Soil is easy but people make it complicated. organic compast makes up the majority and you can add some coco fibre. I have tanks with just organic compost. In fact my longest (8 years) is just organic compost from a grow bag. 

Mix in twigs (instead of orchid bark and free) loads of twigs brken down to about 2 inches in length aid drainage and sot it getting water logged. Rotting leaves and white wooded (collect from woods) is free and provides food and hiding places for you little bugs. 

The minimum bugs you need are tropical woodlice (cheapest place is livefoodwarehouse.co.uk) and woodlice (european or tropical) You can get euroopean for free but collect wild ones and culturing these on. Tropical woodlice are graet too but you need to keep a culture of these going

I also add other bugs to the mix to help out too but these are an added extra. 

You will also need a drainage layer. 

Jay


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks Ron and Jay. I have the drainage layer sorted, gonna get to work on the soil and almost completed and agreed my list of plants with JustAirPlants now!

Getting very excited indeed.:jump:

So rotting leaves are a key element then!?
I believe the substrate is the most daunting/challenging part, as Jess said - just want to get it right! (lets face it, if I get it wrong I will end up in bother).:blush:
I have a couple more vivs lined up to live plant, in the end I hope all will be planted. I am sure they will be a walk in the park once I have tackled my first!

Thanks again:2thumb:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

CrestieGeckoGirl said:


> Thanks Ron and Jay. I have the drainage layer sorted, gonna get to work on the soil and almost completed and agreed my list of plants with JustAirPlants now!
> 
> Getting very excited indeed.:jump:
> 
> ...


It can be really easy, organic compost rotting white wood and dried leaves (the leaves and wood provide extra food and hiding places for the bugs).

Then add tropical springtails and woodlice and any other bugs you want. . 

Jay


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

If you collect the leafmould, try and get it from woods away from roads and treated fields- I collect mine from a mixed beech and sweet chesnut wood on the North Downs, with pasture land and other woods around. This method means you have less control over what livestock is actually in it- I've noted worms, woodlice, springtails, small slugs and snails, millipedes, various beetles, spiders and centipedes- but all contribute in one way or another to the mini-ecology, and my frogs happily eat them when they get a chance. I don't treat it in any way, but I suppose you could nuke it for a couple of minutes in the microwave if you were really concerned to make it 'sterile'- to my mind that rather defeats the object. It really doesn't matter *which* tropical woods and springs you add; they are all detrivores, helping to break down waste. The individual species are mostly chosen by dart frog keepers on the basis of size, since dart frogs have particular needs in prey size. In my tanks, the 'imports' co-exist with 'native' bugs, all helping to keep the soil clean and fresh.


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> If you collect the leafmould, try and get it from woods away from roads and treated fields- I collect mine from a mixed beech and sweet chesnut wood on the North Downs, with pasture land and other woods around. This method means you have less control over what livestock is actually in it- I've noted worms, woodlice, springtails, small slugs and snails, millipedes, various beetles, spiders and centipedes- but all contribute in one way or another to the mini-ecology, and my frogs happily eat them when they get a chance. I don't treat it in any way, but I suppose you could nuke it for a couple of minutes in the microwave if you were really concerned to make it 'sterile'- to my mind that rather defeats the object. It really doesn't matter *which* tropical woods and springs you add; they are all detrivores, helping to break down waste. The individual species are mostly chosen by dart frog keepers on the basis of size, since dart frogs have particular needs in prey size. In my tanks, the 'imports' co-exist with 'native' bugs, all helping to keep the soil clean and fresh.


This is great thanks.:notworthy:
It's like a complete shopping list for when I go to the woods next week!
Thanks:no1:


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

Spikebrit said:


> It can be really easy, organic compost rotting white wood and dried leaves (the leaves and wood provide extra food and hiding places for the bugs).
> 
> Then add tropical springtails and woodlice and any other bugs you want. .
> 
> Jay


Cheers Jay.
Really appreciate this. Thank you :2thumb::2thumb:


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## harlequin (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks guys  and sorry to crash your thread crestie gecko girl! 
Jess


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

harlequin said:


> Thanks guys  and sorry to crash your thread crestie gecko girl!
> Jess



No need to apologise. Done it before myself :blush:
Good luck with your project.:2thumb:


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

*Springtails and Woodlice*

Hi Guys (Jay & Ron),

Where do you buy your tropical springtails and woodlice?

What is the difference with the average garden woodlice and trop. woodlice - i.e. which is best?

Many thanks,
Sharon


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

CrestieGeckoGirl said:


> Hi Guys (Jay & Ron),
> 
> Where do you buy your tropical springtails and woodlice?
> 
> ...


Tropical woodlice tend to do better in tropial conditions, whereas Native are better in cooler, less humid conditions.

Frogs and Food


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

CrestieGeckoGirl said:


> Hi Guys (Jay & Ron),
> 
> Where do you buy your tropical springtails and woodlice?
> 
> ...


The cheapest place fro tropical springtails is www.livefoodwarehouse.co.uk

I use European woodlice mainly, these come from the garden and then i culture them. 

European and tropical do the same job in terms of cleaning ability, however tropical woodlice taste better to reps and have a higgher calcium level thus making a fr better feeder. 

jay


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## ServantOMallard (Nov 18, 2010)

If you wanted to make it interesting, use lots of leafmould and whitewood then put some milli's or flower beetles in there.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

CrestieGeckoGirl said:


> Hi Guys (Jay & Ron),
> 
> Where do you buy your tropical springtails and woodlice?
> 
> ...





Spikebrit said:


> The cheapest place fro tropical springtails is www.livefoodwarehouse.co.uk
> 
> I use European woodlice mainly, these come from the garden and then i culture them.
> 
> ...


I use both; the European woodlice were added primarily as food for my frogs, but inevitably some have evaded capture and 'gone native'. The tropical type are too small for the frogs to bother with, on the whole, and seem to be settling in nicely. They seem to spend more time buried and digging down into the soil than the natives. I got them from Stu (Soundstounite) who was kind enough to send me some starters. There are native springs in the leafmould anyway, the tropical ones came in as hitchhikers on some water plants (I think); having discovered them on the water surface in my clawed frog tank, I introduce them to each new tank as it's set up.

Might be worth mentioning here that compost worms (Dendrobaena) are better at taking higher temperatures than native earthworms, and are very good at breaking down waste. I usually put a couple in each viv and let them get on with it.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Ron Magpie said:


> I use both; the European woodlice were added primarily as food for my frogs, but inevitably some have evaded capture and 'gone native'. The tropical type are too small for the frogs to bother with, on the whole, and seem to be settling in nicely. They seem to spend more time buried and digging down into the soil than the natives. I got them from Stu (Soundstounite) who was kind enough to send me some starters. There are native springs in the leafmould anyway, the tropical ones came in as hitchhikers on some water plants (I think); having discovered them on the water surface in my clawed frog tank, I introduce them to each new tank as it's set up.
> 
> Might be worth mentioning here that compost worms (Dendrobaena) are better at taking higher temperatures than native earthworms, and are very good at breaking down waste. I usually put a couple in each viv and let them get on with it.


Compost worms are a good one , I had forgotten about them. 

I need to get a culture of tropical woodlice going soon, it's something i've never done. I brought one once and put it straight in the viv, thinking they were so small the reps would leave them alone. Wrong they ate the whole lot before they were even established 

I you have a spare culture going ron, I could find it a home 

Jay


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> Compost worms are a good one , I had forgotten about them.
> 
> I need to get a culture of tropical woodlice going soon, it's something i've never done. I brought one once and put it straight in the viv, thinking they were so small the reps would leave them alone. Wrong they ate the whole lot before they were even established
> 
> ...


 I could probably send you a few. They don't increase as fast as springtails, but once they get going they are fine. On Stu's advice I keep a culture going and introduce a handfull to each tank.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Ron Magpie said:


> I could probably send you a few. They don't increase as fast as springtails, but once they get going they are fine. On Stu's advice I keep a culture going and introduce a handfull to each tank.


I will take you up on that offer if you have some spare. 

my plan is to get a culture going and established this time long before i think about introducing any, but i need some to start with lol. So if you have some spare I could swap them for something or give you a few quid for them. Drop me a PM feller. 

Jay


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> I could probably send you a few. They don't increase as fast as springtails, but once they get going they are fine. On Stu's advice I keep a culture going and introduce a handfull to each tank.


 
how do you culture them? - I would like to put some in with some snakes and ackies and also feed a few to my firebellied toads


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

sharpstrain said:


> how do you culture them? - I would like to put some in with some snakes and ackies and also feed a few to my firebellied toads


 I've got mine on a mix of coco fibre and leafmould (nuked in the microwave), with bits of rotten wood and torn up corrugated cardboard mixed in. I feed them on fish flake, instant oat cereal and cooked vegetables- they also eat the wood and soggy cardboard. I keep it moist but not wet, and give it a spray of water at one end every now and then. They like their warmth, and breed better at higher temps- my culture sits on top of one of my tanks.


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

Spikebrit said:


> The cheapest place fro tropical springtails is www.livefoodwarehouse.co.uk
> 
> I use European woodlice mainly, these come from the garden and then i culture them.
> 
> ...


Cool, I will do as you do and culture some from my garden, thanks!:2thumb:


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> I use both; the European woodlice were added primarily as food for my frogs, but inevitably some have evaded capture and 'gone native'. The tropical type are too small for the frogs to bother with, on the whole, and seem to be settling in nicely. They seem to spend more time buried and digging down into the soil than the natives. I got them from Stu (Soundstounite) who was kind enough to send me some starters. There are native springs in the leafmould anyway, the tropical ones came in as hitchhikers on some water plants (I think); having discovered them on the water surface in my clawed frog tank, I introduce them to each new tank as it's set up.
> 
> Might be worth mentioning here that compost worms (Dendrobaena) are better at taking higher temperatures than native earthworms, and are very good at breaking down waste. I usually put a couple in each viv and let them get on with it.


Compost worms :hmm:Where would I get them from? :blush:
Great info, thank you:no1:


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## CrestieGeckoGirl (Jan 5, 2012)

*Tropical Woodlice*



CrestieGeckoGirl said:


> Compost worms :hmm:Where would I get them from? :blush:
> Great info, thank you:no1:


Apologies. Just seen them in thelivefoodwarehouse. Trop. Woodlice, now where would I get me some of those please?
Thanks Sharon


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

You don't have to pay for the worms- if you are anywhere near the country they are in every heap of horse dung, or, any friend who has a compost bin should be able to give you some. You only need a couple for each tank.


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## wetbeef (May 29, 2011)

bit of a bone question, but what's the easiest way of draining the drainage layer with out disturbing the substrate? or do you aim to do it whenever you give it a mix up?


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

wetbeef said:


> bit of a bone question, but what's the easiest way of draining the drainage layer with out disturbing the substrate? or do you aim to do it whenever you give it a mix up?


I tend not to- with the heatmat underneath it evapourates over time. Some people keep a corner clear and use a bit of tubing into the drainage area or a turkey baster.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

wetbeef said:


> bit of a bone question, but what's the easiest way of draining the drainage layer with out disturbing the substrate? or do you aim to do it whenever you give it a mix up?


I use a pippette or a turkey bastor lol. 

HOwever, you can use a drain, syphon, pump etc. 

Jay


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## fardilis (Mar 22, 2011)

wetbeef said:


> bit of a bone question, but what's the easiest way of draining the drainage layer with out disturbing the substrate? or do you aim to do it whenever you give it a mix up?


Or put a drainage hole in so it drains intself.


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## wetbeef (May 29, 2011)

ah i see simple as that, i thought it might be, but elaborate siphoning systems were floating around in the back of my mind


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