# Cases of Cohabitation



## Helvetica

Hi Everyone,
Hope you're all enjoying the lovely summer weather, and not just sweaty and grumpy like me.

As always, once the most recent setup is complete and the inhabitant is feeding and shedding and active it comes time to look to the future. And in this case looking way, way into the future unless I want to be beaten with a frying pan by a certain loving partner.

Basically I plan to keep my 3 current Vivs, with a bit of upgrading as one came to me for free but with water damage so the glass can't be removed, which makes cleaning a bit of a pain. These 3 5*2*2 will be housing for a single animal in each. 

However, to address the topic of the post, my long term plan at the moment involves a large planted arboreal Viv encompassing a Misting System, UV, Halogens, Strip Lighting and a little reptile heater just to keep the ambients up in the winter. Hopefully I will be able to get a lot of ivy growing along with some other species to manage to convert this to a bioactive setup. And my plan once completed is to house Rhino Rats in this Viv. 

My main query is whether anyone has any experience or any specific thoughts on housing 2 or possibly 3 Rhino Rats together.

Now I am aware that in general cohabiting is met with rebukes and no small amount of scorn outside of a few specific species, mainly the Natricine family. And I will state without reservation that the other species I have will be living alone for the duration of their lifespans. 

The hognose especially looked relieved he wouldn't have a big girl sliding into his personal space. 

However, I am curious if there are any of you who hold different views on cohabiting in semi-arboreal or arboreal species, specifically Rhinos. Space will not be an obstacle for this project, I won't make this Viv unless it would be of an adequate size. And there will be an excessive number of hides available, so hopefully competition for resources of that nature could be avoided. 

I'm mostly curious about thoughts on stress and aggression. This is an area, due to my current setups, that I have no experience with. And given there are a number of forum users who have vastly more experience and masses more knowledge I figured turning to you would be more useful than guesswork. 

In my personal research, which is by no means extensive and I would be happy to be proved incorrect, many keepers cohabit this species and the general feeling is that there are minimal if any detrimental effects on the animals. However, I am hoping someone on here has the first hand knowledge to validate or disprove my current plans. 

Look forward to hearing from you all and have a wonderful day!


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## Roseanna

Good Morning!

Great choice of snake, Rhino Rats are incredible!

Whilst i've never co-habited this particular species, I have done so with a few semi-arboreal species (Mainly Amazon tree boa's) and can give you a bit of information based off past experience and in the meantime i hope you find someone that keeps Rhino's and can offer you a bit more of an in depth answer in regards to this species.

The one rule i always swore by when Co-habiting which i think can be taken into account with co-habiting any species is to be prepared for the possibility that you may have to seperate, I ALWAYS had a spare permanent enclosure on hand along with spare equipment just in case one of the snakes was not getting on with sharing his/her space or in case one of them showed signs of being poorly and not to mention i seperated at feeding times anyway. Thankfully I never had to use the spare enclosure for anything negative but it's something to take into account when considering doing this so even if one does turn on the other you can act fast and keep them seperatley. 

I'm sorry I can't offer any experiences in regards to Rhino's, hopefully someone with a bit more information will be along shortly but i certainly recommend being prepared and taking into consideration what this entails - I always had duplicate enclosures, equipment etc on hand which was more money & effort but totally worth it (it's also really hard to avoid temptation of getting another snake when you have an empty spare enclosure!)


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## Helvetica

That's an excellent point. I failed to mention above my plan was to have a smaller Viv setup and prepared in case of issues around breeding. 
Given how wonderful the species is I had hoped to keep and pair or a trio and attempt to breed them. In the case that the male is a little over amorous he was to have a separate Viv for periods of the year to give the girl/girls a break. 

If anyone has more advice here it would also be appreciated. While some species I know can end up getting stressed and fatigued by excessive attempts to mate I know other species, chief to my mind garters, tend to not suffer from this issue (at least in the majority of cases) 

Thank you for your insight and I will take it on board 

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## Zincubus

I kept four Garter snakes together for some time ... just had to be watchful at feeding times ..


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## Helvetica

Garters are gorgeous and I have been tempted in the past. I think they may be strong contenders for a viv in the far future when my beloved corn passes. Just out of curiosity how regularly were you feeding yours? 

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## Zincubus

Helvetica said:


> Garters are gorgeous and I have been tempted in the past. I think they may be strong contenders for a viv in the far future when my beloved corn passes. Just out of curiosity how regularly were you feeding yours?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk




Mine were fairly young and fed voraciously .. .. seem to recall every five days or so ... white fish and / or worms ..


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## ian14

Garters are easily kept communally just take care at feeding time.
I have kept eastern, chequered and Lake Zacapu garters. All were on mice, the female Zacapu was so big she happily took chicks.


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## dps51

I also had garter snakes years ago 
I had three in the same fully planted vivarium
but I did separate them at feeding time
other than this they was always together without any problems
they was fed on white bait fish guppys which I bread in my tropical fish tank
earth worms


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## Helvetica

Its definitely one of those long term considerations. But I think to be content myself I would need to redesign a viv to tolerate an area of standing water. For a species often so closely related to standing water it would be excellent to have a larger area for soaking/swimming. 

Back to the topic at hand however, does anyone who has posted recently (thank you all) happen to have experience with the target species? 

Have an excellent evening all! 

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## ian14

I had a pair of rhino's a few years back. Sadly one really didn't do well and died but the other one matured nicely. The change from grey to green was amazing to see. For a supposedly arboreal snake my be ALWAYS fed back nderwater. When I first got them the only way to get them to feed was fish offered to them while in their water bowls.
I haven't cohabited them because as I said, one sadly died. I couldn't find an adult to pair with mine so I sold my other adult. 
Personally I cannot see any reason why they couldn't cohabit. Cohabiting is always contentious. In my experience, having cohabited corns, hognoses, garters, amazon tree boas, sand boa's, in fact most snakes I have had, I have never had any issues. 
The caveat to that is that feeding is best done separately. In each of my pairs I identified which snake was happy to be fed after being taken out. I would then leave them apart for a good hour after feeding. The other issue is breeding. I always remove the males when the females are due to lay to prevent any possible disturbance. 
I also do not cohabit until both snakes are sexually mature and of a suitable size and weight to breed. 
I cannot see any reason why the same should not be true for rhino's.


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## Helvetica

Excellent news! 
I knew they had a preference for spending time in and underwater. Didn't expect them to decide its where they want to eat though . 
Thank you for the input  

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## pikwik

*co...*


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## pikwik

*co...*

http://s651.photobucket.com/user/kirobella/media/cyanea/061.jpg.html?o=14


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## pikwik

Yeah hi - sorry about this - trying to work out how to post full photos imstead of just sending links . trying to post you photos of the various snakes I have had over the years which have and still are cohabitants of the same viv.


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## pikwik




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## pikwik




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## pikwik

Okay think I got the jist of how to post photees again. I have always cohabited snakes of the same species. I have found on occasion the female b.d.m in a mating lock but also at the same time with the male's head in hers!!! Quick intervention and separated. I cohabited them for a couple of years whilst maturing ( under 4ft ) and then found that the female really wanted to eat the male at around the age of six. I therefore permanently separated them. I'm not sure if this was due to the male persistently hassling the female in mating attempts as indeed I observed him constantly siding up with her. 

The cyanea and lindheimeri are still partners in the same vivs.

I will try to post photees of the vivs later. Thanks.


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## Thrasops

Cohabitation is one of the banes of my existence when it comes to having meaningful, educational debate as so many people are dead set against it without ever having tried it. This of course means that many very inexperienced keepers will seek to shut down the discussion rather than actually, well, discuss it. I've been watching a debate on cohabiting Leopard geckos (which are actually quite a social, colonial species for which behavioural benefits have been identified to socialisation in captivity under laboratory conditions in several studies) so snakes rarely get a look in.

That said.... I cohabit quite a lot of species of snakes, arboreal or otherwise. But always with a certain amount of wariness.

I wrote the following series of posts on FB which I tend to copy and paste a lot as they show some of the factors one must consider, which was recently published in the Peregrine Livefoods magazine. I know this is not required here but I will repost it all anyway as it will look good in one post and not separated out (damn Facebook word limits).

At the end I will give a list of snake species I currently cohabit.

On with the post.

"I find that as with so many aspects of this hobby there are NO absolutes. It is absolutely possible to cohabit snakes, I've done it all my life with many species. On the other hand, some species simply shouldn't be cohabited. So the first hurdle is knowing which species cohabit well and which might present problems.

I have succeeded - and continue to succeed - cohabiting many different species and genera. While it can be done, it is not an undertaking that should be taken lightly and several things should be borne in mind when doing it. That said, providing these basic guidelines are kept there should be no problems.

Firstly, and perhaps most obviously, the snakes should be species that don't eat other snakes (although even this is malleable, as Dione's Rat Snakes can be snake eaters that cohabit very well together, and I know several people that cohabit various King Snakes without problems despite the fact that Kings are one of the more notorious snake eaters). However some species that one may assume won't eat other snakes, will. King rat snakes and many species of _Boiga_ for example are notorious snake eaters, I would not dream of trying to cohabit either.

Most accidents seem to occur at feeding time or afterwards - presumably the snakes smell the food on the other snake. So it is always wise to feed cohabited snakes separately and leave them apart for an hour or two after feeding.

Next, they should be of similar size, healthy, settled, quarantined and taking food well. Even Corn Snakes can and will cannibalise other snakes if one is too much larger than the other, as was eloquently demonstrated by the photo taken by Tom Charlton of one eating a baby King Cobra it was intended to be food for. This extends to conspecifics. In fact the risk seems to be higher with young snakes than fully grown adults in many species.

Thirdly, the snakes need room. Most single adult Dione's Rat Snakes, for example, reach about 24" and can be kept singly in a 24"x18"x18" terrarium; I used to keep pairs in 48"x18"x18" terraria, although these days I prefer to house in trios in 48"x24"x24".

The more space, the better. You need twice of everything. Basically, there should be enough hides at both the cool end and the warm end for the snakes to be able to use either end while keeping away from the other snake if it so desires (interestingly, what you will usually find is that the snakes spend most of their time in contact with one another though, especially when at rest).

Next, the genders of the snakes should be considered. For me, the absolute worst pairing is one male and one female. It can be done, but the problem with this particular pairing is that the male can be prone to chasing the female all over the enclosure relentlessly which can cause her stress. If I am housing mixed genders together I always try to ensure there is at least 1.2 or even more females to ensure the male spreads his attention between the two. In this case, larger enclosures really are required.

For example, I used to house a 1.2 trio of Corn Snakes in a 48"x24"x48" terrarium that had three tall, vertical tree trunks. This gave the females plenty of scope to escape the unwanted attentions of the randy male when they wanted to and bask or hide in seclusion.

This is very important as, simply put, it isn't healthy for a snake to continually be mated and produce multiple clutches a season. It places a large strain on a female's body. While sometimes females can retain sperm and multiple-clutch of their own volition from a single mating, it isn't something they should be subjected to by having a male constantly chasing them around trying to mate with them and then having to bear clutches several times each year.

Related to this, juvenile or subadult snakes of mixed genders should NEVER be mixed. I have witnessed first hand the stresses an early pregnancy can cause on a young snake's body - as an example, I once accidentally housed male and female juvenile Dione's Rat snakes that I thought were two females together and the male mated with the female. The female became gravid and laid eggs… and remained half the size of other females from the same clutch since all the energy that should have gone towards growth during her first year went to producing eggs instead. She is still tiny compared to her clutch-mates and will never reach full size.

Mixing two or more males or two or more females is easier but, especially in the former, can also hold pitfalls. Many male snakes are in fact territorial, or will enter courtship rituals with other males - while often the "wrestling" is harmless and neither party will go off food or show signs of stress, in certain species one male can and will dominate another kept in the same terrarium, so care must be taken. The male that is the loser in such interactions sometimes will become so stressed that he will not feed as regularly and his growth can suffer. Many rat snakes perform this kind of dominance battle (I have seen it several times in Japanese Rat Snakes for example).

Males of some pythons for example Retics will fight violently and should never be housed together. This is where knowing the species is important - and in any case personally I would not house any giant species together for simple safety of the keeper!

Keeping a snake singly of course makes it easier to keep track of how a snake is feeding, easier to isolate it in case of potential illness, and is generally to be recommended for novice keepers. As time has gone by I tend to house snakes singly more out of convenience - I have a large collection, it is quicker to feed them singly than if they are cohabited. There are far more reasons to house a snake singly than together with other snakes.

So much for the possible negative aspects of keeping snakes together. There are positives also. The biggest of which is that, despite "common knowledge" indicating that snakes are not social and do not react to one another, this is actually far from the case - may species do socialise to varying extents to the point that, while keeping them alone PROBABLY does not have a negative impact on them, keeping them together could be considered another form of enrichment.

Psammophiine snakes for example (of which I personally keep many species) take this socialisation further than people would think. They have narial valves beneath the eye which they use to mark out their territory by rubbing on landmarks, and also "self anoint" by polishing their vents and flanks so that the pheromones rub off them as they patrol their territories to delineate its boundaries. I have witnessed two different species of _Psammophis_ "anointing" other specimens kept together in this way.

Further, at least some Psammophiine snakes take socialisation a step further. Pairs my bond for extended periods. Males capture prey which they present to females. Females seek out their male and squeeze beneath him when threatened from above. Males will retain a territory and press-gang defeated rival males into becoming "vassals" and helping him defend his territory and female from other interlopers. These behaviours are NOT the actions of asocial animals!

Various vipers and pit vipers have been seen to form mutual defence of an area. They have creches. Kin recognises kin. Mutual defence has also been noted anecdotally in _Spalerosophis_ also (including by myself). Garter Snakes have lots of communal behaviours to the point that we see all kinds of interesting interactions like kleptothermy, communal feeding, sexual disguise and so on arising.

Certain boas have even been witnessed hunting co-operatively on bats.

There is also the fact that snakes do in fact have various ways of signalling one another. These are sometimes subtle, sometimes not. I have watched _Thrasops_ and _Coelognathus_ "wave" at one another from different vivaria across the room by performing anterior undulations and the other responding. I have witnessed _Philothamnus_, _Platyceps_, _Opheodrys_ and _Ptyas_ make similar displays. We simply do not KNOW how much sociality affects these animals - not enough that a lack of it seems to affect their husbandry in any way, for sure... but perhaps enough that it provides an extra level of enrichment for some species.

Ultimately, it is for each of us to decide whether to cohabit snakes. If it is done for purely financial reasons - keeping two snakes in an enclosure that is too small just to save on space or electricity or equipment - that cannot be recommended. But with a bit of thought and care, it can provide an extra facet to these animals lives and offer many interesting insights to the observant keeper.

Finally, if you DO decide to cohabit, the golden rule is - keep a close eye on goings on, learn to tell from a snake's behaviour whether it is stressed and, if needs be, do not hesitate to separate the animals and house them individually if there are any problems. If you are going to cohabit, be sure that at any point you are able to remove one of the animals and house it separately if needs be.

All that said, cohabiting is not difficult and almost always has no problems, and you do get to see a lot of very interesting behaviours that otherwise you wouldn't. While snakes for the most part live fairly solitary lives, they are not as solitary as some might think and they certainly will react to one another in various ways in the terrarium.

All the above assumes the snakes involved are the same species. I would not risk cohabiting different species of snake except for in very exceptional circumstances, simply because many snakes can opportunistically eat other species of snake, among other reasons.

I did however used to keep one of my Roger's Whip snakes (_Platyceps rogersi_) with my Egyptian Egg Eater (_Dasypeltis bazi_). Both came in the same shipment from the same place. The racer was much smaller than the Egg Eater so would never be able to eat it, and the Egg Eater is toothless and only eats eggs, so they were an exception.










I would say it is certainly sensible to recommend single species enclosures for beginners as the truth is there is a LOT that can go wrong when mixing species, and it takes a certain amount of knowledge of the different species' requirements and experience of their temperaments to decided whether a species would cohabit.

OK, with that all out of the way, here are some photos of snakes I cohabit followed by a list of species I have had success with... and then a list of species I HAVEN'T...

CB baby _Psammophis schokari_. Not many can claim to have bred these. I raise them in groups once they are feeding individually.










Spalerosophis diadema cliffordi (Clifford's Diadem snakes). Not only do the adults seem to get along well and even mount co-ordinated defence (which has been observed by several other people), the babies feed better with others in the enclosure, perhaps due to an element of competition. I have had babies that will not feed by themselves start going after the prey of conspecifics when they see they have some... a perfect time to pop a pinky in front of them and have it snatch it.










Roger's Flat-Headed whip snakes (_Platyceps rogersi_). I have two 1.2 groups of this species kept together, although they were started off separately until each was feeding reliably by themselves.










_Natrix helvetica_ (Barred grass snake). I actually have kept all species of _Natrix_ communally. No problems whatsoever.










Another _Psammophis_ species, this time _P. sibilans_ (Hissing sand snake). As social a snake species as can be found.










_Lytorhynchus diadema _(Awl-Headed snakes)










Japanese rat snakes (_Elaphe climacophora_) in an old outdoor enclosure. MOST rat snakes with the obvious exception of _E. carinata_ can do well housed together. I will say _E. climacophora_ give me the most trouble out of all my co-habbed snakes as their feeding response is huge and they can fight at meals, also males will wrestle in the breeding season. However in a large enough enclosure they do fine.










Western whip snakes (_Hierophis viridiflavus_).










Western Coachwhips (_Masticophis flagellum testaceus_)

I admit I introduced my Coachwhip groups to one another very tentatively as they do eat snakes, including quite large rattlesnakes, in the wild. However I've found similar-sized specimens cohabit extremely well, no issues seen whatsoever, and wild specimens do seem to pair-bond at least occasionally in a similar way to Montpellier snakes.










What I find is, the bigger the enclosure the more you can get away with. Sure, you wouldn't want to cohabit snakes in the small enclosures commonly used. But in general even my smallest enclosures are at least as long as the snakes are, and half as wide and tall. This only increases when housing multiple animals. So I find that in large enclosures you avoid any hassle.

In the next post I will add a more comprehensive list of species I cohabit.


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## Thrasops

So with that mammoth post out of the way, here's a more laid back list of species of snake I cohabit. I'll try and put the specifically arboreal ones first.

_Philodryas baroni_ - adults cohabit well although that feeding response needs to be watched.

_Philothamnus irregularis/ semivariegatus/ punctatus/ battersbyi_ - African Bush snakes. I don't keep these any more but have maintained all the mentioned species in mixed enclosures and experienced absolutely no problems whatsoever.

_Opheodrys aestivus_ - Rough Green snakes. Again I no longer keep these but maintained a long-term breeding colony of five individuals for over a decade.

_Dendrelaphis pictus _- one more species I no longer keep, but again kept as a group that bred for me several times.

_Chrysopelea ornata_ - Ornate Flying snake. I do maintain a pair of these but in this case I would advise caution as I had one male kill another outright many years ago. However my current animals have been with me since 2004 and are doing well.

_Chrysopelea paradisii_ - Paradise Flying snake. One small male and one large female kept together. 

_Thrasops jacksonii _- I only have one specimen left but she was maintained with another male and a female since 2005 or thereabouts. Male died a stupid and preventable death about a year ago. Otherwise I'd have no doubt he'd still be with me too and they'd be living together in complete harmony.

_Thrasops occidentalis_ - I keep a pair in a large terrarium.

_Gonyosoma prasinum_ - Green Trinket snake. I have not kept G. boulengeri before, however I have kept G. prasinum, G. frenatum and G. oxycephalum. I keep the G. frenatum singly because, well, I only have one. The others do absolutely fine cohabited in large, vertical enclosures with lots of horizontal branches and knots to coil up on.

_Gonyosoma oxycephalum_ - Red Tailed rat snake. As above. These seem to like coiling up over a large water feature. I have seen many zoological institutions cohabit them also.

_Madagascarophis colubrinus_ - Do just fine in small groups. I maintain a 1.2 trio that bred recently.

_Corallus hortulanus_ - Amazon Tree boa. Unproblematic. My pair even move together. When one moves, the other follows (and it is not just overtures for breeding). It is quite uncanny.

_Psammophis sibilans_ - Hissing Sand snake. These are semi-social snakes with a variety of interesting social behaviours described in the previous post.

_Psammophis schokari_ - Schokari Sand snake. These are semi-social snakes with a variety of interesting social behaviours described in the previous post.

_Psammophis phillipsi _- Phillip's Sand snake. These are semi-social snakes with a variety of interesting social behaviours described in the previous post.

_Hierophis viridiflavus_ - Western whip snake

_Platyceps rhodorhachis_ - Wadi Flat-Headed whip snake

_Platyceps florulentus _- Flowers's Flat-Headed whip snake

_Platyceps rogersi _- Roger's Flat-Headed whip snake

_Masticophis flagellum testaceus_ - Western Coachwhip. I maintain three pairs kept together and a single lone male. Surprisingly they cohabit really well, do not even fight at mealtimes.

_Elaphe climacophora_ - Japanese rat snake. Have insane feeding responses so now and again may need separating if they scuffle even a couple of hours ater a meal, but will usually resolve disputes themselves.

_Elaphe schrenckii_ - Russian rat snake. Do just fine kept together.

_Elaphe anomala_ - Korean rat snake. As above.

_Elaphe quatuorlineata _- Four-Lined snakes. As above. Rat snakes in general are unproblematic as adults.

_Elaphe dione _- Dione's rat snake. Great species to cohabit as they are small and tractable.

_Elaphe bimaculata_ - Twin-Spotted rat snake. As with Dione's, these do fine together although as they can be very shy, make sure they are eating well and can be monitored before mixing. Personally I only mix snakes I know will feed from tongs anyway so I can monitor food intake.

_Elaphe taeniurus friesi_ - Taiwan Beauty snake. Need large enclosures. But cohabit very well.

_Zamenis scalaris _- Ladder snake. Males will wrestle.

_Zamenis longissimus _- Aesculapian snake.

_Coelognathus radiatus_ - Radiated Trinket snake

_Pantherophis guttatus _- Corn snake

_Pantherophis vulpinus_ - Fox snake. Bred by Tell Hicks, an unrelated pair. I am very proud of them 

_Pantherophis bairdi _- Baird's rat snakes. 

_Pantherophis obsoletus _- Black rat snake. I no longer keep obsoletus (going by the new taxonomic change) however I have kept and cohabited ALL of the old subspecies prior to the split into three separate species (so Texas, Black, Yellow, Everglades, Grey etc.) and they cohabit really well.

_Pantherophis alleghaniensis _- Eastern rat snake. As above.

_Pantherophis spiloides_ - Grey rat snake. This is the only species of the previous obsoletus complex I still keep. Fantastic animals, laid back when cohabited.

_Dasypeltis bazi_ - Egyptian Egg Eater. Cohabited with _Platyceps rogersi_

_Spalerosophis diadema cliffordi_ - Clifford's Diadem snake
_
Rhamphiophis oxyrhynchus_ - Rufous Beaked snake

_Lytorhynchus diadema _- Awl-Headed snake

_Erythrolamprus jaegeri_ - Jaeger's Ground snake

_Erythrolamprus poecilogyrus_ - Gold-Bellied snake

_Xenochrophis vittatus _- Striped Keelback

_Natrix helvetica_ - Barred Grass snake

_Natrix maura_ - Viperine snake
_
Natrix natrix_ - Grass snake

_Natrix tessellata_ - Dice snake

_Lygophis anomalus_

So much for the species I DO cohabit. There are a couple of species I would not cohabit. Obviously most king snakes and milk snakes are off the table (although I do know people that cohabit all sorts of _Lampropeltis_, even the _getulus_ complex, and to be honest those are the worst offenders. I would expect _thayeri_, _alterna_ and so on to actually cohabit fairly well).

Horseshoe whip snakes (_Hemorrhois hippocrepis_). STRONG snake eaters. I have cohabited them before in fairness, but they tend to go for anything that moves and will fight so it isn't worth it IMO.

King rat snakes (_Elaphe carinata_). Another strongly ophiophagous species. I am aware of at least one zoo in the Netherlands that cohabits large adults, but personally I just wouldn't risk it.

_Boiga_, in particular _B. dendrophila_ (Mangrove snakes) and _B. cyanea_ (Green cat snakes). I have had issues with both species, including a large female _B. cyanea_ that will go for any male I put in her enclosure which has made recent breeding attempts somewhat trying. This female is more than twenty years old and has bred many times, but in the last five years has taken a very aggressive, cannibalistic turn and will attack any male by the head the moment they are introduced. I'd recommend only supervised introductions for mating.

All of these are based on my own experiences, of course. That of others may differ. It is wise to always be on your toes, and to always have a separate enclosure ready if needs be.


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## DW2013

*What he said...*

Very difficult to add anything useful to that. Echo the points about the rat snakes and natricines. Zero problems.

Apologies if I have missed the point but it is also important to consider the damage done per bite; if ratsnakes do catch each other, it is usually no great problem. Reticulated pythons or Royals slamming into each other can really cause issues. I have kept boa constrictors together and would not be inclined to do so again after one injury. There is still a Royal Python tooth embedded in one of my fingers too...


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## Malc

Wow.... If I was a teacher I would give Francis a gold star for that essay - Brilliant.

I think the main reason co-habiting has been frowned upon or is always suggested to be avoided is to remove one or two areas that can be problematical for beginners. Francis is fortunate enough to have the space and (I'm guessing) money to provide large, well furnished and equipped vivariums that provide the ideal environment for co-habiting the species listed that overcome most of those issues.

I confess, I always recommend to newbies to keep the snakes in their own enclosures, although I have in the past kept many snakes in pairs. These included Bairds rat snakes, Gt Plains rats and common boa's. However, whilst I classed myself as an experienced keeper in terms of years in the hobby, I was always mindful of the risk of getting bitten, or snakes getting attacked when feeding. I used to separate the snakes at feeding times, but getting a 7' boa back into the vivarium that is in feeding mode, and also having to watch the other boa who is also in the same frame of mind was stressful, especially the occasion the male went for the female that still smelt of rat. I removed a large tooth from the back of her neck and promptly sold the male.

There is also the risk of unwanted baby snakes if a pair is kept, or combat if males are kept (species dependent), another reason "we" often dissuade the newcomer away from co-habiting snakes.

What is interesting to see in all the lovely images Frances has posted is that even though there is enough space and hiding places etc to allow each snake to effectively have its own space, they all seem to be congregating together 

I'm not as experienced as Frances (even though I've been in the hobby 33 years) when it comes to the species he's worked with, but it would be interesting to see if they co-habit in the wild, or only come together for breeding.


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## Roseanna

Thrasops said:


> So with that mammoth post out of the way, here's a more laid back list of species of snake I cohabit. I'll try and put the specifically arboreal ones first.
> 
> _Philodryas baroni_ - adults cohabit well although that feeding response needs to be watched.
> 
> _Philothamnus irregularis/ semivariegatus/ punctatus/ battersbyi_ - African Bush snakes. I don't keep these any more but have maintained all the mentioned species in mixed enclosures and experienced absolutely no problems whatsoever.
> 
> _Opheodrys aestivus_ - Rough Green snakes. Again I no longer keep these but maintained a long-term breeding colony of five individuals for over a decade.
> 
> _Dendrelaphis pictus _- one more species I no longer keep, but again kept as a group that bred for me several times.
> 
> _Chrysopelea ornata_ - Ornate Flying snake. I do maintain a pair of these but in this case I would advise caution as I had one male kill another outright many years ago. However my current animals have been with me since 2004 and are doing well.
> 
> _Chrysopelea paradisii_ - Paradise Flying snake. One small male and one large female kept together.
> 
> _Thrasops jacksonii _- I only have one specimen left but she was maintained with another male and a female since 2005 or thereabouts. Male died a stupid and preventable death about a year ago. Otherwise I'd have no doubt he'd still be with me too and they'd be living together in complete harmony.
> 
> _Thrasops occidentalis_ - I keep a pair in a large terrarium.
> 
> _Gonyosoma prasinum_ - Green Trinket snake. I have not kept G. boulengeri before, however I have kept G. prasinum, G. frenatum and G. oxycephalum. I keep the G. frenatum singly because, well, I only have one. The others do absolutely fine cohabited in large, vertical enclosures with lots of horizontal branches and knots to coil up on.
> 
> _Gonyosoma oxycephalum_ - Red Tailed rat snake. As above. These seem to like coiling up over a large water feature. I have seen many zoological institutions cohabit them also.
> 
> _Madagascarophis colubrinus_ - Do just fine in small groups. I maintain a 1.2 trio that bred recently.
> 
> _Corallus hortulanus_ - Amazon Tree boa. Unproblematic. My pair even move together. When one moves, the other follows (and it is not just overtures for breeding). It is quite uncanny.
> 
> _Psammophis sibilans_ - Hissing Sand snake. These are semi-social snakes with a variety of interesting social behaviours described in the previous post.
> 
> _Psammophis schokari_ - Schokari Sand snake. These are semi-social snakes with a variety of interesting social behaviours described in the previous post.
> 
> _Psammophis phillipsi _- Phillip's Sand snake. These are semi-social snakes with a variety of interesting social behaviours described in the previous post.
> 
> _Hierophis viridiflavus_ - Western whip snake
> 
> _Platyceps rhodorhachis_ - Wadi Flat-Headed whip snake
> 
> _Platyceps florulentus _- Flowers's Flat-Headed whip snake
> 
> _Platyceps rogersi _- Roger's Flat-Headed whip snake
> 
> _Masticophis flagellum testaceus_ - Western Coachwhip. I maintain three pairs kept together and a single lone male. Surprisingly they cohabit really well, do not even fight at mealtimes.
> 
> _Elaphe climacophora_ - Japanese rat snake. Have insane feeding responses so now and again may need separating if they scuffle even a couple of hours ater a meal, but will usually resolve disputes themselves.
> 
> _Elaphe schrenckii_ - Russian rat snake. Do just fine kept together.
> 
> _Elaphe anomala_ - Korean rat snake. As above.
> 
> _Elaphe quatuorlineata _- Four-Lined snakes. As above. Rat snakes in general are unproblematic as adults.
> 
> _Elaphe dione _- Dione's rat snake. Great species to cohabit as they are small and tractable.
> 
> _Elaphe bimaculata_ - Twin-Spotted rat snake. As with Dione's, these do fine together although as they can be very shy, make sure they are eating well and can be monitored before mixing. Personally I only mix snakes I know will feed from tongs anyway so I can monitor food intake.
> 
> _Elaphe taeniurus friesi_ - Taiwan Beauty snake. Need large enclosures. But cohabit very well.
> 
> _Zamenis scalaris _- Ladder snake. Males will wrestle.
> 
> _Zamenis longissimus _- Aesculapian snake.
> 
> _Coelognathus radiatus_ - Radiated Trinket snake
> 
> _Pantherophis guttatus _- Corn snake
> 
> _Pantherophis vulpinus_ - Fox snake. Bred by Tell Hicks, an unrelated pair. I am very proud of them
> 
> _Pantherophis bairdi _- Baird's rat snakes.
> 
> _Pantherophis obsoletus _- Black rat snake. I no longer keep obsoletus (going by the new taxonomic change) however I have kept and cohabited ALL of the old subspecies prior to the split into three separate species (so Texas, Black, Yellow, Everglades, Grey etc.) and they cohabit really well.
> 
> _Pantherophis alleghaniensis _- Eastern rat snake. As above.
> 
> _Pantherophis spiloides_ - Grey rat snake. This is the only species of the previous obsoletus complex I still keep. Fantastic animals, laid back when cohabited.
> 
> _Dasypeltis bazi_ - Egyptian Egg Eater. Cohabited with _Platyceps rogersi_
> 
> _Spalerosophis diadema cliffordi_ - Clifford's Diadem snake
> _
> Rhamphiophis oxyrhynchus_ - Rufous Beaked snake
> 
> _Lytorhynchus diadema _- Awl-Headed snake
> 
> _Erythrolamprus jaegeri_ - Jaeger's Ground snake
> 
> _Erythrolamprus poecilogyrus_ - Gold-Bellied snake
> 
> _Xenochrophis vittatus _- Striped Keelback
> 
> _Natrix helvetica_ - Barred Grass snake
> 
> _Natrix maura_ - Viperine snake
> _
> Natrix natrix_ - Grass snake
> 
> _Natrix tessellata_ - Dice snake
> 
> _Lygophis anomalus_
> 
> So much for the species I DO cohabit. There are a couple of species I would not cohabit. Obviously most king snakes and milk snakes are off the table (although I do know people that cohabit all sorts of _Lampropeltis_, even the _getulus_ complex, and to be honest those are the worst offenders. I would expect _thayeri_, _alterna_ and so on to actually cohabit fairly well).
> 
> Horseshoe whip snakes (_Hemorrhois hippocrepis_). STRONG snake eaters. I have cohabited them before in fairness, but they tend to go for anything that moves and will fight so it isn't worth it IMO.
> 
> King rat snakes (_Elaphe carinata_). Another strongly ophiophagous species. I am aware of at least one zoo in the Netherlands that cohabits large adults, but personally I just wouldn't risk it.
> 
> _Boiga_, in particular _B. dendrophila_ (Mangrove snakes) and _B. cyanea_ (Green cat snakes). I have had issues with both species, including a large female _B. cyanea_ that will go for any male I put in her enclosure which has made recent breeding attempts somewhat trying. This female is more than twenty years old and has bred many times, but in the last five years has taken a very aggressive, cannibalistic turn and will attack any male by the head the moment they are introduced. I'd recommend only supervised introductions for mating.
> 
> All of these are based on my own experiences, of course. That of others may differ. It is wise to always be on your toes, and to always have a separate enclosure ready if needs be.


Incredible :notworthy:


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## Helvetica

Just a phenomenal contribution there. Thank you everyone who has replied so far. Thinks seem even more positive than I had expected when making this post, which is fantastic news. 

In fact..... Maybe I can persuade the other half some of my current vivs need flat mates...... 



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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Wow.... If I was a teacher I would give Francis a gold star for that essay - Brilliant.
> 
> I think the main reason co-habiting has been frowned upon or is always suggested to be avoided is to remove one or two areas that can be problematical for beginners. Francis is fortunate enough to have the space and (I'm guessing) money to provide large, well furnished and equipped vivariums that provide the ideal environment for co-habiting the species listed that overcome most of those issues.
> 
> I confess, I always recommend to newbies to keep the snakes in their own enclosures, although I have in the past kept many snakes in pairs. These included Bairds rat snakes, Gt Plains rats and common boa's. However, whilst I classed myself as an experienced keeper in terms of years in the hobby, I was always mindful of the risk of getting bitten, or snakes getting attacked when feeding. I used to separate the snakes at feeding times, but getting a 7' boa back into the vivarium that is in feeding mode, and also having to watch the other boa who is also in the same frame of mind was stressful, especially the occasion the male went for the female that still smelt of rat. I removed a large tooth from the back of her neck and promptly sold the male.
> 
> There is also the risk of unwanted baby snakes if a pair is kept, or combat if males are kept (species dependent), another reason "we" often dissuade the newcomer away from co-habiting snakes.
> 
> What is interesting to see in all the lovely images Frances has posted is that even though there is enough space and hiding places etc to allow each snake to effectively have its own space, they all seem to be congregating together
> 
> I'm not as experienced as Frances (even though I've been in the hobby 33 years) when it comes to the species he's worked with, but it would be interesting to see if they co-habit in the wild, or only come together for breeding.


Some good points there.

Personally I wouldn't cohabit any of the larger Boids. They have the capacity to really harm conspecifics if they fight, many are very territorial (Retics and Carpets spring to mind) and can seriously injure one another even with minor nips - it's different to most relatively small Colubrids, whose teeth rarely even break the skin if they nip one another - and I have seen some hideous 'tearing' injuries as a result of the bites of larger snakes. SO - larger boids are out of the window for me, quite apart from the danger having two large snakes might pose to the keeper if both are in "feeding mode".

With the snakes often ending up together and using the same hides and basking spots - YES this is a phenomenon many have commented on; that even in larger vivs, many choose to remain close to one another or utilise the same hide. Now, the obvious answer is that maybe they just both choose the same hiding place or basking spot because it is _better_ than the alternative in some way (perhaps warmer, or more comfortable, or more secure), but I don't think that is necessarily true and that they may take some comfort from bodily contact.

Certainly I notice this to be the case even in very large enclosures with multiple hides and basking spots. You very often see the snakes inhabiting the same spots.

With wild specimens - that's a mixed bag. Definitely most snakes forage by themselves and spend MOST of their time by themselves. BUT you very often witness the same phenomenon as above - multiple snakes inhabiting the same hiding spot. So for example, you could spend an afternoon flipping boards or stones or logs and come up with diddly squat... and then you flip that ONE board and it has a whole bunch of snakes (sometimes of different species) under it. It happens more often than not and can be quite uncanny, particularly if there are loads of other seemingly attractive pieces of debris for them to hide under.

We know most snakes respond to chemical cues, and we also know that some fossorial species actually communicate via these chemical cues (males with squalene, females with tocopherol) that serve to attract one another to areas with lots of food. Why this should be is not well understood, as it seemingly goes counter-intuitive to specimens keeping the good feeding spots for themselves, yet - there it is.

Whether the more terrestrial, 'normal' snakes also do this is up in the air. Perhaps in some species, perhaps not. We know there are lots of snakes that practice communality in some form, whether that be using pheromone markers (rat snakes, boas, many others), territorial delineation (Psammophiids), pair bonding (Coachwhips, Psammophiids, King Cobras) creche behaviour (vipers, diadem snakes, rattlesnakes, some pythons), mutual group defence (rattlesnakes and diadem snakes again), communal hunting strategies (water snakes, tentacled snakes, Cuban boas), nest building and defence (King cobras), mutual hibernacula (LOADS of species), mutual aestivation (Royal pythons) or breeding aggregations (again LOADS of species).

In some cases these phenomena only occur during parts of the year - snakes can aggregate in the thousands to brumate or aestivate for four months a year, then disperse and rarely encounter one another. But what we often find is that the snakes practice other forms of sociality DURING those times of year.

One other thing I would note goes back to wild behaviour. I've been surveying my local population of Adders since 2001. And one thing I have noticed every year is that the snakes bask together in pairs or small groups very often. In fact I have filmed as many as six individuals basking together at one time. One of the really interesting things that came from seeing this, that I have actually filmed parts of and shared on Facebook, is that there MAY be some form of altruism to their basking behaviours.

What we call 'kleptothermy' is a name with negative connotations ('klepto' meaning 'to steal') and it has been noted in several different genera including garter snakes and vipers. What happens is that a newcomer to a basking spot will crawl directly to a snake that was previously present, and then 'steal' their heat by curling up on top of them. EXCEPT... maybe the word 'steal' is incorrect...

What I have observed seems to show a very specific behaviour wherein the new snake will approach the previously present one and perform an odd ritual where they trace all the way along the previous snake's spine with their nose. It is a really interesting thing to watch, more so because both Adders make small, barely distinguishable head movements as they do so. The newcomer will then be permitted to sit on top of the animal that was already there and share its heat.

Am I reading too much into things? Perhaps - but I see this every year when I go out and observe them, enough to convince me this is an actual ritualistic behaviour and not a coincidence. And it MAY - MAY - point to a degree of altruism being present wherein the Adders may share their body heat. Oddly enough, this happens most of all between males (which emerge from hibernation earlier).

Read into that what you will, I find it intensely interesting though!

So. There is no harm keeping snakes alone, and I would probably advise beginners to do so too. But for healthy, settled snakes, it can lead to some interesting observations.


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## Thrasops

Ah - completely forgot when writing out that list. I have cohabited several species of Sand boa and _Candoia_ boa too. Not really comparable to arboreal _Gonyosoma_ but there it is.


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## Thrasops

As luck would have it I just came across this amazing photo in Field Herpetology by Brendan O'Connor showing maternal care in a Western Diamondback rattlesnake (_Crotalus atrox_). The mother will guard and defend the offspring for up to several days after birth.


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## pikwik

" What I have observed seems to show a very specific behaviour wherein the new snake will approach the previously present one and perform an odd ritual where they trace all the way along the previous snake's spine with their nose. It is a really interesting thing to watch, more so because both Adders make small, barely distinguishable head movements as they do so. " ( Quote from Thrasops post .)


I observe this with the Ratsnakes I have ( Elaphe obsoleta lindheimeri ) - especially after brumation and sometimes even in the Summer when it comes to feeding. They have always cohabited since a few month old. I see it as a type of ' excitement ' that observed head jerking/ quivering. Definitely sending some type of vibration signal to the other snake. It is quiet robotic.

The same type of head jerk is seen at feeding although sometimes the male and female are at a distance from each other and no contact between them. I will feed the female first and as soon as she has a mouse then I offer a morsel to the male. I make sure the two are a good distance from one another - ie - opposite ends of the viv. Timed right they both feed at the same time but yes I am always wary to make sure one doesn't snatch at the other's meal as on a few occasions the chomp down has seen one snake take in the head of the other. Due to the small teeth no real harm has come to either and it's just a case of gently as possible to pry a smooth flat wooden rod between the two until they release grip. Never observed any real cuts on either snake. Both male and female have been culprits so yes it's defo a case of appetite as opposed to aggression. 


Another observation in the B.cyanea is that one individual kind of bullied the other in the sense that she would be the first to take the mice placed in the vivarium and more often than not take more than her share and often all six mice. The male was I suspect intimidated by the female's growing size or weight - even though they were born within one week of each other. (different lines = one from Germany and the other from UK). He often skipped meals and still sometimes will be assist fed. Separation reverses this behaviour I have witnessed.

( By the way I was a member of the forum ages ago under the username Kwibezee and as Kirobella on the mantis forums so some of you may recognise me or recognise certain snake photos etc. Long story and old PC blew and couldn't recall names/ passwords etc so registered again as pikwik )


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## Roman A

I keep most of my (adult) snakes in pairs or groups. I do keep a female Gonyosoma boulengeri and if I ever get a matching male for her I would not hesitate to keep them together as well. I keep Gonyosoma oxycephalum in a group of 1.2 without any issues since 2013. As Francis (and others) already said I would hesitate to cohabit snake eaters, I had a female Californian kingsnake which wanted the male after hibernation as a quick meal rather than for reproduction.

The snakes I keep or have kept in pairs

1.1 and 1.2 Spilotes pullatus (tiger rat snakes)
2.0 Spilotes sulphureus (amazon puffing snakes)
1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephalum (red tailed green rat snakes)
1.1 Philodryas baroni (Baron’s racer)
1.1 Zamenis longissimus (Aesculapian Snakes)
1.1 Malpolon monspessulanus (Montpellier snakes)




1.2 Spilotes pullatus












2.0 Spilotes sulphureus











1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephalum











1.1 Philodryas baroni











1.1 Zamenis longissimus











1.1 Malpolon monspessulanus (Montpellier snakes)












There is also my little post about cohabitation… -->https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/1269591-cohabitating-different-species.html


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## Helvetica

I do remember seeing that post a while back. Wondered how on earth you got the idea to cohabitate poison dart frogs with anything. I would have been far Far too nervous. But I'm so glad it worked out for the best! 

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## johndavidwoods

Roman A said:


> I keep most of my (adult) snakes in pairs or groups. I do keep a female Gonyosoma boulengeri and if I ever get a matching male for her I would not hesitate to keep them together as well. I keep Gonyosoma oxycephalum in a group of 1.2 without any issues since 2013. As Francis (and others) already said I would hesitate to cohabit snake eaters, I had a female Californian kingsnake which wanted the male after hibernation as a quick meal rather than for reproduction.
> 
> The snakes I keep or have kept in pairs
> 
> 1.1 and 1.2 Spilotes pullatus (tiger rat snakes)
> 2.0 Spilotes sulphureus (amazon puffing snakes)
> 1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephalum (red tailed green rat snakes)
> 1.1 Philodryas baroni (Baron’s racer)
> 1.1 Zamenis longissimus (Aesculapian Snakes)
> 1.1 Malpolon monspessulanus (Montpellier snakes)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.2 Spilotes pullatus
> image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.0 Spilotes sulphureus
> image
> 
> 
> 
> 1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephalum
> image
> 
> 
> 
> 1.1 Philodryas baroni
> image
> 
> 
> 
> 1.1 Zamenis longissimus
> image
> 
> 
> 
> 1.1 Malpolon monspessulanus (Montpellier snakes)
> image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is also my little post about cohabitation… -->https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/1269591-cohabitating-different-species.html


So out of interest, in the cases where you keep mixed sex pairs or groups, presumably mating and egg production must take place every year - is that the case? Do you think the females suffer at all from this, or does it not seem to be an issue in your collection?


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## pikwik

*cohabitation post pregnancy...*

I have witnessed aggression in the Boiga d. m with reference to the female attacking the male post mating. This occurred approx 2 weeks after mating so I am presuming the female was getting too agitated as the male was persistently trying to mate repeatedly.

I observed this throughout the duration of 48 hours after I first found the male gripped by the female. At first, I thought it was another locking as I have seen the male (bite) take hold of the female on one occasion. However, the instance when I observed it a second time around it was the female with the male though she had not engulfed the male head first. The female had hold of the male behind the head and from the side. 

That was a year before I introduced them to the big viv ( 7x6x4 ) and thought perhaps it was an issue with the size of the viv I was keeping them in at the time which was a temporary ( between growth) homing. I then seperated them for 11 month whilst the big viv was being constructed.

When I introduced the male into the big viv where the female had been for the length of 2 months or so he was mating with her in the space of 5 minutes or less. It was an incredible moment and was so pleased the reintroduction had gone so successfully. However, he persistently tried to mate again and again and again and I know the female moved out of the way several times.

I should have taken that behaviour as a sign - but I didn't! I came back from work one day and found the male inside the female's mouth and it was head first!!! YIKES:bash:

I separated them easy enough and saw the male had a couple of minute punctures on his head as a couple of small beads of blood had emerged. Nothing major and treated the site with Tamodine. I placed the female in a separate viv. I can assure you that she had been well fed - given extra in fact as I knew that she had mated successfully. I was feeding 2 to 3 small rats every 5 to 10 days. The male only ate once. 

A small area on top of the male's head became very scaley, rough and very dry - obviously due to the toxicity of the female's venom. He sloughed out of this a couple of month's later and not a trace of anything sore or marked.

I separated them for good after I found the male repeating his action and the female repeating the attack again on two further occasions. Post egg laying the female's appetite was good enough for her to still take up to 3 small rats but over the months it has been reduced down to 2. I offered 3 but the third one was repeatedly rejected so I adhered with just offering 2. 



I also add that I have also observed the female B. cyanea trying to eat the male immediately after or during a slough. Male is slightly smaller than the female but both born within a week of each other ( different parentage). I am presuming that there is a particular chemical pheromone released when sloughing that she is responding to and sees 'prey' (??), She never attacks otherwise, only during when the male is sloughing - hence my query.


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## ian14

Mangrove snakes are known snake eaters.
Keeping them together can lead to one trying to eat the other, as you found out.


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## pikwik

ian14 said:


> Mangrove snakes are known snake eaters.
> Keeping them together can lead to one trying to eat the other, as you found out.


Yes - but I'm asking - is this because the female was now truly mature - at 7 years old or was it because of the male's persistence?

In conclusion, I would say that this species is a species to be kept in isolation. They co-habited for a good number of years whilst they grew.


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## Malc

To be honest, co-habiting any snake that is known to feed on other snakes is asking for trouble. In the restrictions of a vivarium there is no way for the weaker snake to escape.

I guess that this really comes down to proper research of the species.


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## Zincubus

johndavidwoods said:


> So out of interest, in the cases where you keep mixed sex pairs or groups, presumably mating and egg production must take place every year - is that the case? Do you think the females suffer at all from this, or does it not seem to be an issue in your collection?




That’s a very interesting point ..


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## Helvetica

My only thought on that issue is that presumably most snakes breed every year in the wild? I mean there may be some animals that Miss a year but the vast majority of females must be sought out by males every year. 
It may increase some of the risks and may result in fewer eggs in a clutch but I wouldn't have thought it would be a straight negative... 

Obviously happy for someone to prove me wrong. 

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## Thrasops

johndavidwoods said:


> So out of interest, in the cases where you keep mixed sex pairs or groups, presumably mating and egg production must take place every year - is that the case? Do you think the females suffer at all from this, or does it not seem to be an issue in your collection?





Helvetica said:


> My only thought on that issue is that presumably most snakes breed every year in the wild? I mean there may be some animals that Miss a year but the vast majority of females must be sought out by males every year.
> It may increase some of the risks and may result in fewer eggs in a clutch but I wouldn't have thought it would be a straight negative...
> 
> Obviously happy for someone to prove me wrong.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk



In my experience it varies from snake to snake, and even individual to individual.


My Corn snakes for example tend to lay every year, my larger female _occasionally_ double-clutches, the other never does. I assume the instances of double-clutching come about from sperm retention rather than repeated unseasonal matings as one thing I observe when snakes are cohabited is that seasonality becomes a thing again and the males tend to 'blow their load' in the breeding season and then calm down the rest of the year. On the other hand, snakes kept individually that are introduced to the opposite sex are much more likely to attempt to mate regardless of time of year - in my experience.

I find the same with most rat snakes (they lay yearly) up until they get to a certain age (around 18-20 years) and then many females seem to just stop laying altogether. There have been exceptions to this though, I have had 20+ year females that still laid, but in general my cohabited rat snakes lay most years, most do not multi-clutch though. So females seem well able to regulate themselves.


Boas such as ATBs do not breed every year, mine breed every two years and sometimes the female has skipped an extra year too.


Many snakes actually don't breed every year, Viperids and Boids in particular seem to skip a year between breedings. Since Colubridae is such a large (and paraphyletic) grouping, I doubt anybody could state any hard and fast rules across that "family".


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## Swindinian

Fascinating topic to return to.

I recently heard of a couple of friends who co hab their Antaresia. Not something I had ever considered doing. I thought they would be high risk for cannibalism because they seem so food orientated, and ‘assertive’ for want of a better term. 

I have recently co-habbed pairs of rainbow boas (Sub adults).
A few interesting interactions observed. 
Thus far they have not shared hides (at least not the occasions I have checked on them).
Nightime, I do sometimes find them nearer, sometimes following or crossing paths.
There have been a couple of nervous exchanges for one individual with his female housemate, and he seems respectfully avoidant of her although not otherwise shy. Early on, possibly on the first night or a day or so later, she was in strike pose as he blundered into her zone. I was nervously poised to intervene, but he paused, tasted the air a few times, then backtracked out of her way, as she just maintained her position.

Feeding time is soo much more time consuming, which is definitely a downside to co-habbing.


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## loxocemus

.


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## Swindinian

loxocemus said:


> .


Hi Ed, 

I am interested in your thoughts on the subject. No worries if you wanted to comment at a different time.

Kind regards,

Andy


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## loxocemus

hi, i believe it should be avoided, there cannot be a worse death for a snake than to be consumed, if its "lucky" its unconcious, very often their not though. is cannibalism a certain, of course not, is it a real and present danger, absolutely, its just a question of chance. decades ago i had a long term (together) pr of blk rats, she tried to eat him alive, if i had not been present both animals would likely have perished. the killer often cant cope with the massive meal and dies itself. snake eaters have evolved to survive these meals, indigos mussurana's etc, other species, especially neonates cannot. why did i have a pair of blk rats together, because it was cheaper than dual setups. i could lie and say breeding etc but that would be just that, a lie.

oddly i had a 0.1 blk rat who lived with a 0.1 sonoran gopher for many years, incident free, why? my skill?, nope, simple chance was on my side.

separate feeding DOES NOT, il say again DOES NOT eliminate the chance of cannibalism, it reduces the chances, that's all.

i held a corn in my hands that had just broken free from a cannibalistic attempt, it was trembling, i didn't know snakes could tremble in fear till that day.

if a beginner asked me this very question, my answer would be to learn from others, including my own, mistakes, keep separately, sleep soundly.

lastly garters are often touted as the ultimate colony snake, this is not strictly true, in my experience of others animals/collections, iv heard of more garter deaths from cannibalism than virtually any other species, cali's are the obvious close 2nd (usually from set and forget breeding introductions).

no one has the right to tell you what to keep together or not, but if the worst happens, its on you, the keeper, poor luck is not an valid excuse.

rgds
ed.



Swindinian said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> I am interested in your thoughts on the subject. No worries if you wanted to comment at a different time.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Andy


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