# How do you plan your projects?



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I'm asking because I see a lot of people asking a question that's a variation on the below:



> I have/want an X. What can I breed it to to get cool/expensive offspring?


I'm curious how those of you who breed or plan to breed start out your projects.

Do you plan out what you want your babies to look like, then buy your breeders accordingly? Do you buy one (or more) you like the look of, then scramble to find something that'll work with it? Do you plan to produce normal hets and breed into multiple generations? Do you just decide that Fluffy and Butch make a nice pair and you don't care what the babies are like?

Here's what I did, starting back with my original "plan" project:

I wanted to breed middle-end leopard geckos to fund my desire to buy a hand-reared blue and gold macaw and the equipment for it.

I decided on buying one Banana Blizzard male leopard gecko, a Banana female, two patternless females and two blizzard females - that way, I'd get some banana blizzards, some patternless het blizzard and some blizzard het patternless offspring. Not expensive stuff, but I figured in a couple of years I might have enough saved up... (little did I know.)

This went wrong when the two patternless I bought BOTH turned out to be male. Woo for me! But they had a lot of character, and I built two new vivariums and decided FINE, I'd go and get a blizzard female and see what else The Snake Shop had. I wound up getting a blizzard girl, an albino girl and two hypos. 

The following year I decided I wanted to arrange things properly and have a decent breeding pair. I bought a blizzard het albino male and an albino het blizzard female ... and named the albino girl what I had planned to call my macaw, Nash. I don't have any intent of trying to get a macaw now - I've been well and truly bit by the herp bug.

When I got into snakes, my first was just a pet. He was always bought with the idea that he'd be a pet snake and maybe my only one ever.

Fat chance. He'll still be a pet... but I'm planning to breed several species in the next three years.

Now, I've moved over to the other side of things and I very carefully plan out what I want to breed and what offspring I want to get - and buy my breeding adults accordingly. I want lavender stripes, so I bought a pair who have the potential to produce me lavender stripes. I want a granite, so I bought a pair who could produce me one.

How about you?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Well I started off with pets and a random chance of getting a male normal and a female ghost that bred... so then I had to buy a male ghost for my female, and I thought, well, my first snake is lonely (I was 14!) so I bought a normal female for him too (I didn't know about hets or anything so I thought you needed 2 of the same colour..).

As the years progressed I basically developed a collection of pairs or trios of the same colour based on what was available locally, chance sightings and a lot were bought for me as gifts by my OH in my late teens/early 20s with him not giving any thought about breeding... so then I had to buy partners for them...

I still mostly don't plan things, I pick what I find attractive and available, and then I search for a mate for it. I almost never use hets, I always keep pairs or trios of visual colours and keep life simple.. although I do have 2 pairs of hets breeding next year.

Overall, I am not really a planner  My ghost motley just looked nice.. my anery stripe female came with a few others... my lavender motleys I picked up because they were a good price and I had some spare cash at the time.. that sort of thing. Still looking for partners for a LOT of things!


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

Every animal we buy* has a distinct place in current or future breeding projects.

they are all purchased with a specific goal in mind.

We prefer visuals to hets where possible but will use het animals in certain species.


Mason

*apart from the occasional "bargain" or things sami falls in love with on the spot, in which case I get no say. this is for everything purchased in the last 12 months.


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

mines kinda inbetween, like my ultramel het caramel, i brought that solely on the fact i like it visually, then i thought about what to put it with later(eg butter:no1, but its got to be a visual thing for me first


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

Due to the fact that all offspring can look completely different to the parents, it is simply genetics I follow. 

Referring to Blood Pythons;

Unless the parent's carry genetic striping genes, chances are the hatchlings won't have the striping at all, even if both parents are almost fully striped.

Then there's the whole colour polymorphism factor where any clutch of eggs can produce, red, brown, yellow or even orange.

At the moment I am trying to source specific Black Blood Pythons to form a trio, but head colouration is a major factor, consisting of yellow, chrome or black.
I currently have a Chrome Head and a Black Head but am having trouble sourcing a 3rd, preferably female. With these there is a high percentage that the offspring produced carry the head colouration of the parents. 

As with Albino's, I am trying to source suitable Het for albino females to pair with an albino male. This well mean I can produce Albino's AND 100% Hets which may be easier to sell on due to the lower price.


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

i dont real understand the poll, and i dont breed yet, But i am going to breed my snakes asap, The PRB's anyway, i will just breed them, when they are ready, big enought, have the money to breed them, healthy all these things, I am breeding the prbs because i got one, and then got another opposite sex, because i LIKE RB's, so i will breed what i personaly like if thats what your asking?
:S


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

I normally breed like to like and get babies that look like the parents.
However on projects I try match compatable snakes to get towards what I would like. Shame it does not always work !

Waiting for the eggs to hatch and see what is there is half the fun :no1:.

Stephen.


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

I have a long term plan for every snake ive bought.
I prefer visual to hets which is why ive not bothered with any though I could have saved quite a few bob.
I want to create snakes that i cant buy or would have to pay stupid money for.

I didnt feel any of the options suited my plan


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## Nienna (Jan 17, 2007)

As you know dear my first two leopard geckos and first snake were bought as pets and then...then I saw your babies. Damn you *grins*.

So now anything I buy (to a point) is with a view to what it can produce combined with my other animals. I have my Axanthic kenyan sitting and waiting for a nice snow/abino male to come and show her the ropes and I have my Mack Snow pair of geckos.

Although I do have some that I didn't get with the express plan of breeding which would be Bindi and Lakeisha. Thoguht to be honest I think Callisto can fit in that group too because even if you hadn't have had your two, I wanted a "big" snake and thats what she is


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

I think "I want X...I'll buy things that look nice and have the genes to make X"


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Bumping this one up, since I'm seeing more "how do I make something cool from the animal I have" threads....


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Well from our point of view we've bought morphs we understand and we will therefore breed and produce babies with genetics we understand (we're still learning and i'm not afriad to say)
I can't see the point of producing this all singing and all dancing morph if you can't explain to a buyer the genetics behind it. I want to feel confident with my genetics before producing them.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

the first few were just pets with no intention of breeding - now i buy for the genes, and using hets at the moment because its a) cheaper and b) going to be a nice surprise come hatching time


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

If I am buying for breeding I will buy things that are visual or will give me the quickest return on my cash in the shortest space of time.

If its a pet then I don't care what it is, if I like the look of it I will buy it.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Well with our Leo's for example it started out as a visual/enthusiast hobby, then the more we read and understood (still learning by the way!!) the more we thought about the potential for these wonderfull animals. We have therefore started to build a collection around a specific goal - whether we get there is another matter but the joy of keeping them and the offspring we produce will only go to enhance our experience and knowledge.

There is also another issue and that is pricing....we strongly believe that current prices preclude many enthusiasts from keeping species and morphs they would cherish so we hope to be able to provide healthy Leo morphs at more affordable prices.


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## DavidBra (Sep 19, 2006)

*Corns*

I think you need to make some mental decisions first. What sort of breeder do you want to become? 
Do you want to breed for the market always buying the latest morphs every year keeping up with Jones’s? or do you want to create something special or different by selective breeding something you love.
I have chosen the latter and I have created a breeding program that will take about 12 years. E.g. my youngest daughter wants a flamingo corn a really pink snake. It has been noted that pink plasmas (lavender blood) come from Okeetee roots where as silver plasmas come from Miami background. So if I breed Lavender, Okeetee, Bloodred and Sunkissed together selectively breeding each generation I should get a Sunkissed x Lavender x Bloodred = her Flamingo Corn (end up being a wedding present though).

I also have another few long term projects utilising the same pool of corns and a few more.

In this country I can see people rushing to make Plasma's, will they be pink or silver? They will not know until the hatchlings snakes are about 2 years. So for the sake of rushing we may produce inferior Plasma's in this country and in about 3-4 years we will import proper pink ones from America because our own gene pool is random rubbish. 

I think in this country we should make more of selective breeding projects. With corns everything is imported from USA, Have we ever exported anything back? I doubt it because we will never find a new morph because everything from the wild gene pool has already been interbred before we see them. But there’s nothing stopping us producing special corns like John Abbott did producing his Abbotts Okeetee. 
I see some of our breeders are going that way and producing special corns. Snakebreeder produces hi yellow butters I think are better than Serpenco and most of the corns at Lexcorn are special. Do you think that woman have a better eye for selective breeding? I do


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## Scoffa (Nov 23, 2006)

I was never interested in the morphs because mostly it only concerned corn snakes. However it has progressed it the Boiids which I really love. I've been keeping BRB's for about 7 years now and have only just found that Anery and Hypo morphs are being bred. I am fairly certain that 1 pair I have throw Anery's and 1 female throws Hypos. So this year I'm selecting what breeds with what to see if I'm right.


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## Scoffa (Nov 23, 2006)

DavidBra said:


> I think you need to make some mental decisions first. What sort of breeder do you want to become?
> Do you want to breed for the market always buying the latest morphs every year keeping up with Jones’s? or do you want to create something special or different by selective breeding something you love.
> I have chosen the latter and I have created a breeding program that will take about 12 years. E.g. my youngest daughter wants a flamingo corn a really pink snake. It has been noted that pink plasmas (lavender blood) come from Okeetee roots where as silver plasmas come from Miami background. So if I breed Lavender, Okeetee, Bloodred and Sunkissed together selectively breeding each generation I should get a Sunkissed x Lavender x Bloodred = her Flamingo Corn (end up being a wedding present though).
> 
> ...


It's great creating a new morph but if you invest a lot of money in Royals or boas and somebody does it before you you could be out of pocket. I've noticed snake prices dropping quite rapidly over the last year or 2.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

DavidBra said:


> I have chosen the latter and I have created a breeding program that will take about 12 years. E.g. my youngest daughter wants a flamingo corn a really pink snake. It has been noted that pink plasmas (lavender blood) come from Okeetee roots where as silver plasmas come from Miami background. So if I breed Lavender, Okeetee, Bloodred and Sunkissed together selectively breeding each generation I should get a Sunkissed x Lavender x Bloodred = her Flamingo Corn (end up being a wedding present though).


Out of curiosity, why add Sunkissed in there? Wouldn't Lava - if you wanted a hypomelanistic-effect gene that also seems to enhance reds - make more sense? I ask, because some sunkisseds are known for carrying a very detrimental recessive gene, the Stargazing mutation. 

I'd also be careful that your lavender is not an Anery Lavender - because THAT would produce silvery-grey Lavender Bloods (I hate "plasma" - to me, that's a straw-yellow blood product) too.




> In this country I can see people rushing to make Plasma's, will they be pink or silver? They will not know until the hatchlings snakes are about 2 years. So for the sake of rushing we may produce inferior Plasma's in this country and in about 3-4 years we will import proper pink ones from





> America because our own gene pool is random rubbish.


*chuckle* I'd prefer a silvery lilac-grey Lavender Blood personally  I mean, yes, a PURPLE one would be appealing - like the purple one on the Serpenco website - but I personally believe weeding the Anerythristic gene out of the Lavender pool is going to be crucial to producing the really purple Lavender Bloods.




> I think in this country we should make more of selective breeding projects.


Absolutely and 100%. Too many yellow mack snows that can't be told from normal leopard geckos. Charcoals that are almost as contrasty and yellow as Anerythristic corns. I'd rather have *varieties* than *mutations*. Until it's selectively bred for, it's not a variety - it's just a mutation morph.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

DavidBra said:


> But there’s nothing stopping us producing special corns like John Abbott did producing his Abbotts Okeetee.


...Lee Abbott......


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## DavidBra (Sep 19, 2006)

eeji said:


> ...Lee Abbott......


Doh..:bash: or was it Russ Abbott


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## kennedykrew (Jul 31, 2006)

I buy what i like; then try to buy a partner for it. Then i buy summit else; then try to buy a partner for it! :lol2:
Then i buy summit else!:lol2:


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## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

We buy what we like, i don't buy a morph if i don't like it, whats the point??? in buying one and then breeding it if you don't like it?, if you are only breeding it to make money then honestly you are not in it for the right reasons.
All our adult geckos are our pets, therfore we only buy what we like.
I don't have any diablo blanco's, i don't have any emeralds, why?? because i don't like the look of them personally ,at the moment they are some of the top morphs to buy that sell for a good price but i don't own any. I do have a enigma but my wife bought me this for being married to her for 17 years lol and because i really liked them.
i didn't go into this for the money we started because we loved leopard geckos, therfore surely the best reason to buy a certain morph is because you like it!
mark..oh and melanie lol


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## DavidBra (Sep 19, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Out of curiosity, why add Sunkissed in there? Wouldn't Lava - if you wanted a hypomelanistic-effect gene that also seems to enhance reds - make more sense? I ask, because some sunkisseds are known for carrying a very detrimental recessive gene, the Stargazing mutation.


 Because if Okeetee's produce purple plasmas and I want them slightly brighter, Sunkissed are hypo Okeetee's so I can guarantee the Okeetee parentage. I think but do not quote me Lava where found in upper keys? 
Also I am hoping that when the reject normals I produce when breeding hets together will be Okeetee rather than just normals what will be cool.
Also I want them only slightly brighter, Sunkissed is the least severe out of all the hypo's, Lava is the most severe and will produce a more opal looking snake what personally I do not prefer.
Also Okeetee’s and Sunkissed are big healthy snakes and are beasts when they come to feeding and breeding, Introducing them to the bloodred line that have a reputation for being fickle should improve my line. I can imagine Blood x Lava to be small wimpy corns if not carefully selectively bred.
As with the Stargazing - I understand that both Kathy Love and Serpenco culled all of their Stargazers. It’s only a few hobby breeders that are continuing the defect. Both of my Sunkissed are from the above mentioned breeder.
Sunkissed x Lavender x Bloodred is just one project also intend to produce Sunkissed x Charcoal x Bloodred, Honey Blood, Sunkissed x Lavender x Aztec, Sunkissed x Charcoal x Aztec, Sunkissed Aztec, Okeetee Aztec and Honey Aztec all with an emphasis on the Okeetee look. 
My stock is 2 with Lavender, 3 with Caramel in them, 3 with Charcoal in them, 2 Sunkissed, 3 with Bloodred in them, 6 with Aztec/Zig Zag in them and an Okeetee. My breeding plan is very complicated creating ultimately two lines of each and takes 12 years +, but along the way I hopefully will create other reject (to me) morphs like Butter Aztecs. I have deliberately made the decision not breed Anerys in to my ultimate goals to keep them away from the Lavenders and Charcoals. 2 of the Aztecs are snows but I will use the Sunkissed and Okeetee to breed them out. I have calculated that my final morphs will have about 6% chance of having Anery in them.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

kennedykrew said:


> I buy what i like; then try to buy a partner for it. Then i buy summit else; then try to buy a partner for it! :lol2:
> Then i buy summit else!:lol2:


: victory: :no1:



DavidBra said:


> Also I am hoping that when the reject normals I produce when breeding hets together will be Okeetee rather than just normals what will be cool.
> 
> 2 of the Aztecs are snows but I will use the Sunkissed and Okeetee to breed them out.


 they can't be het for Okeetee, its a selective bred 'locality' look, not a seperate gene
 Aztecs aren't a simple recessive either, and don't always breed true

...but some nice plans there, from some equally nice stock


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## Kenorsanc (Dec 10, 2006)

So if I wanted to start a selective breeding project what do you reckon would be a good morph to strat with? This is something that really appeals to me.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> So if I wanted to start a selective breeding project what do you reckon would be a good morph to strat with? This is something that really appeals to me.


Well, what morph do you like the look of MOSTLY.... but think it could look nicer?

I'd like to do "Anerykeetees" - Anerythristics with bright clean pale backgrounds and really wide black borders on solid charcoal grey saddles.


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## kennedykrew (Jul 31, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> So if I wanted to start a selective breeding project what do you reckon would be a good morph to strat with? This is something that really appeals to me.


I reckon it all depends on how much money you wanna spend. Also if youre doing it for satisfaction or profit.
I recently bought a pair of young corns for a fair bit of cash, i know for a fact money wise i could have bought a few (well... a lot!) adults for what i spent; Bred and hopefully made a fortune!(lol) 
If you are looking to create 'new' morphs .... good luck!.
Snows and caramels always have good potential and options, ultras and ultramels are a step ahead of the game. I personally cannot get my head around this gene or whatever the wording is.
Generally Lavenders, Whatever morph of stripe and The caramel and butter lines are popular at the moment, But in 2 - 3 years are we going back to Okeetees as a big favourite??? Who knows?


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## Kenorsanc (Dec 10, 2006)

i dont mean making a morph more like perfecting a single or double homozygous one. I'd love to do bloodreds but im struggling to find one let alone a decent one.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

DavidBra said:


> As with the Stargazing - I understand that both Kathy Love and Serpenco culled all of their Stargazers. It’s only a few hobby breeders that are continuing the defect. Both of my Sunkissed are from the above mentioned breeder.


Have your sunkissed come from proven Stargazer clear lines? Stargazing is a recessive, and can "hide" for generations, too... Far as I knew, there wasn't enough data to prove most of the lines clear yet - because there weren't enough known het stargazers available to test out the lines.


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## DavidBra (Sep 19, 2006)

eeji said:


> : victory: :no1:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know on both accounts, I am hoping to selectivly breed to keep the Okeetee look for normals not sure how it will work out but I will try, basicaly the same for the Aztecs, as rule the better the Aztec the better the chance of throwing good Aztecs, the rare cases where 0% Aztecs where produced are where 2 differant lines of Aztecs are put together

But thank you on the compliment


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## kennedykrew (Jul 31, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> i dont mean making a morph more like perfecting a single or double homozygous one. I'd love to do bloodreds but im struggling to find one let alone a decent one.


Dunno about 'perfecting' single or double trait corns, but sounds like you wanna produce some nice looking 'mid range' corns. If you buy from a good quality breeder and get 'into' some good lines, you'll do ok:no1:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> i dont mean making a morph more like perfecting a single or double homozygous one. I'd love to do bloodreds but im struggling to find one let alone a decent one.


Well, my instinct would be to get the best bloodreds you can get hold of - particularly ones from Don Soderberg or Rich Zuchowski, imported from the 'States. 

That said, my temptation would be to pick something weird, like making Miami Bloods or something


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## Kenorsanc (Dec 10, 2006)

Miami bloods? but the thing that i dont like about the bloodreds is the grey in them!


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## kennedykrew (Jul 31, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> Miami bloods? but the thing that i dont like about the bloodreds is the grey in them!


Not fussy then eh???? :lol2:
I see what you mean. :lol2:


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## Kenorsanc (Dec 10, 2006)

lol

im allowed to be fussy im thinking along the lines of caramel to perfect now just need an idea of a perfect caramel.


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

...heres a little inspiration for you, a PERFECT bloodred from Don Soderberg.....


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## Kenorsanc (Dec 10, 2006)

We can live in hope!


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## DavidBra (Sep 19, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Have your sunkissed come from proven Stargazer clear lines? Stargazing is a recessive, and can "hide" for generations, too... Far as I knew, there wasn't enough data to prove most of the lines clear yet - because there weren't enough known het stargazers available to test out the lines.


They are from Serpenco so I guess so because I know he did cull several lines to clear his lines


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

DavidBra said:


> They are from Serpenco so I guess so because I know he did cull several lines to clear his lines


I'd watch your second-generation hatchlings very closely... just in case.

It's just unpleasant how recessive genes can hide in lines - whether it be an anerythristic gene getting rid of the pink in your lavenders or a neurological disorder.... shame corns don't have as many dominant and codominant traits as royal pythons!


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## leogirl (Oct 1, 2006)

i havent successfully bred any of my leo's yet, but the ones i bought i got because i liked the look of them. if i manage to breed them at the moment im not looking to get a certain morph hatch.


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## Nienna (Jan 17, 2007)

Well in terms of Leos, I've upgraded a bit from my previous plan and set down in my head what I WANT to be producing now and in a few years time and have bought animals based on that.

ie: Now: Hybino and Mack Ghost
Later: Super Giant Albino male


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## pankthesnake (Sep 29, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Now, I've moved over to the other side of things and *I very carefully plan out what I want to breed and what offspring I want to get* - and buy my breeding adults accordingly. I want lavender stripes, so I bought a pair who have the potential to produce me lavender stripes. I want a granite, so I bought a pair who could produce me one.
> 
> How about you?


That's basically what we are striving for, but this year have made some impulse purchases based mainly on what I USED to own, as I've been away from snake keeping fro six or seven years.

Now we have a better understanding of the new morphs out there (being mainly corn and royal keepers) and what combination of genes produce them, we can now plan carefully for the next few years and hopefully will get what we want, but because we like them and not because they are expensive.


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## Scoffa (Nov 23, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> So if I wanted to start a selective breeding project what do you reckon would be a good morph to strat with? This is something that really appeals to me.


Anery x Hypo BRB's.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> lol
> 
> im allowed to be fussy im thinking along the lines of caramel to perfect now just need an idea of a perfect caramel.


*chuckle* Well, to me the perfect caramel would have a warm caramel-brown background colour - no dirty wash, no greenish tones - thick black borders on the chocolate-brown saddles, a proper black and white checkerboard belly with no ground-colour staining into it, and as much brilliant yellow on the neck as possible - ideally, the ground colour along the flanks should be touched with lemon-yellow from jawline to vent.


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## Kenorsanc (Dec 10, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> *chuckle* Well, to me the perfect caramel would have a warm caramel-brown background colour - no dirty wash, no greenish tones - thick black borders on the chocolate-brown saddles, a proper black and white checkerboard belly with no ground-colour staining into it, and as much brilliant yellow on the neck as possible - ideally, the ground colour along the flanks should be touched with lemon-yellow from jawline to vent.


thats how i would imagine it i dont like caramels with grey in them i sound so fussy lol but i dont really like that kinda grey if you know what i mean. Like there should be colour here but its just grey not like an anery or anything like that.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Kenorsanc said:


> thats how i would imagine it i dont like caramels with grey in them i sound so fussy lol but i dont really like that kinda grey if you know what i mean. Like there should be colour here but its just grey not like an anery or anything like that.


Not fussy at all  Just someone with an eye for what you like. 

It's like me and sunglows - I won't call a borderless amelanistic a Sunglow... it's got to have the proper deep rich orange background colour too. A Candy Cane has got to be WHITE with red saddles (not orange - they make me think creamsicle/Candy), with no staining in the white at all. I want perfection in a morph and reproducible results if I breed one X to another X. A perfect sunglow, if bred to another sunglow, should produce nothing that would not be a sunglow. 

In leopard geckos, I want Mack snows which are monochromatic - no yellow even in heterozygous animals - and I'm quite happy to spend my time trying to breed toward it. I'd love to have a line of Mack Albinos that are chocolate brown and WHITE.


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