# Invasive Non-native Species Policy Discussions within the European Union



## Chris Newman

*Invasive Non-native Species Policy Discussions within the European Union *

Dear all,

Discussions and preliminary consultations commenced midway through 2010 on the development of an EU policy on the issue of invasive or potentially invasive non-native (or alien) species – both plant and animal but from here onwards this summary will concentrate on animal-related concerns. Previous discussions had taken place between 2005-2010 but have become a lot more important because of the European Union’s stated intent to enact some form of legislation on the issue as part of their commitments on biodiversity. A consultation – not well publicised – took place over the summer of 2010 and according to EU officials most respondents were British (both from the pro-keeping and pro-trade side and from the animal protectionist & animal rights side of the argument).

A stakeholder consultation meeting took place on 3rd September with attendance dominated by those opposed to animal-keeping and trade in animals. Although the legislation – likely to be either an EU Directive or Regulation – will consider aspects such as who pays for non-native species becoming established and how to eliminate or control species that have become invasive the biggest concern for animal keepers and animal traders is the area that will be covered by the Prevention Working Group.

The heavy area of dispute - not surprisingly – will be focused on whether the legislation should have white or black lists for import and for home possession/trade. Those opposed to animal keeping have strongly demanded the use of very restricted white lists (of species ‘proven’ by risk assessment not to present a potential invasive
species problem) with everything else banned. Those few on the Working Group supportive of animal keeping and trade have argued strongly in favour of a limited and focused black list that would require exemptions or licensing to import/keep/trade and everything else to be kept and traded.

It is clear that at least some Member States support the idea of the use of white lists which, if implimented, would be a disaster for those keeping and/or trading in non-native species. There are also several representatives of Member States who have indicated no great enthusiasm for white lists.

The other main threat – irrespective of whether white or black lists are used – is the EU’s consideration of whether or not the same lists should be used across all EU Member States or whether there could be separate lists by country or by biogeographic area. Having a single list for the entire EU would present keepers and traders with immense problems since clearly many more species could potentially become established in say the Canary Islands or Cyprus than could in Germany
or Finland. Hence a single unified list could easily see the prohibition of a species like the Corn Snake across all EU countries because it might be potentially invasive in southern European areas. 

The pro-keeping side of the equation have secured two positions on the Prevention Working Group but it is very important that keepers organizations from countries other than the UK start to actively lobby their Governments (the animal rights groups in several EU Member States were represented at the 3rd September consultation meeting but, noticeably, not the representatives of the equivalent animal-keeping organizations).

DG-Environment on behalf of the European Commission expects to pull-together the recommendation and option documents from the three Working Groups in the summer of 2011. The consolidated document will then be put out for public comment and any revisions made with the intent of a final recommended document to be presented to the European Commission and Council of Ministers in late 2011 with legislation being enacted sometime in 2012.

This is in my view the single greatest threat to the keeping of reptiles and amphibians within the European Union that has ever emerged. Unless we, keepers, participate and represent our interests we face a very uncertain future!

Regards,

Chris Newman
Federation of British Herpetologists
Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 0044 (0) 238044 0999
Mobile: 0044 (0) 7897 692060

Development of an EU Strategy on Invasive Alien Species:
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/invasivealien/index_en.htm


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## Nix

Hi Chris,

Andy (Leaping Lizards, York) was chatting to me about your movement in the shop the other day. Mark at the shop is setting up a facebook group as well I believe. I'll join up and publicise it where I can starting with the York Reptile Night. 

If we can make this a really hot subject people might just start to see our side!

Keep up the good work mate.

Nix


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## NickBenger

I can't imagine this ever happening tbh because their are too many people keeping reptiles for them to just go ...no. They could do this more responsibly if they did it by area and then had the white list. In england we'd be able to keep almost any reptile because are climate would stop the invasion of most of them for example corns, kings, boas wouldn't survive in england.


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## Alfonzo

TheDogMan said:


> I can't imagine this ever happening tbh because their are too many people keeping reptiles for them to just go ...no. They could do this more responsibly if they did it by area and then had the white list. In england we'd be able to keep almost any reptile because are climate would stop the invasion of most of them for example corns, kings, boas wouldn't survive in england.


Corns have been anecdotally reported to do just fine in our climate - parts of their range in the states get quite chilly too :| same can be said for many NA species. Agreed, South American and Asian species may be ok, but it isn't just the UK's climate we need to think about, its across the whole of the European Union - so Spain, France - much warmer than here. If something can exist there, it could be banned here.


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## Chris Newman

TheDogMan said:


> I can't imagine this ever happening tbh because their are too many people keeping reptiles for them to just go ...no. They could do this more responsibly if they did it by area and then had the white list. In england we'd be able to keep almost any reptile because are climate would stop the invasion of most of them for example corns, kings, boas wouldn't survive in england.


I think you have missed the point, what is being proposed is EU wide legislation, so potentially anything that could survive in one part of the EU could be banned from private ownership- so think from Finland to Malta, rather then just the UK!


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## HABU

people affect native species much more than non-native animals...

what are they doing to get rid of the people?

oh i forgot... a cornsnake does more to harm native wildlife than a highway does...











i'd think differently if authorities actually were concerned about wildlife...

say your house is on fire... so you spray water on a bedroom... not very effective...

that's how wildlife is usually treated... spraying water on a bedroom doesn't solve the problem... the house is still burning... it becomes a silly attempt at doing something good...


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## retri

and what would happen with animals that are currently kept within the EU, will it be another DWAL situation where people release pets in order to avoid having them destroyed?


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## pete-vtr

not in a million years!

:lol2:


if something like this was to ever happen id bet my bottom dollar DWA would be banned first...


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## Gaboon

It's a ridiculous proposition! And one that seems to have very little to do with conserving biodiversity, or for that matter animal welfare! What exactly is trying to be achieved? Is it to fold to the whim of animal right terrorists or look out for biodiversity? 

This all sounds like a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


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## NickBenger

Chris Newman said:


> I think you have missed the point, what is being proposed is EU wide legislation, so potentially anything that could survive in one part of the EU could be banned from private ownership- so think from Finland to Malta, rather then just the UK!


Cbb to read back but didn't it say it could be done as a list for the whole EU or as a list for each country.


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## Chris Newman

retri said:


> and what would happen with animals that are currently kept within the EU, will it be another DWAL situation where people release pets in order to avoid having them destroyed?


Obviously we cannot entirely be certain where this legislation is going, or what will be proposed. One thing that we can be sure of there will be no ‘mass cull’ of captive animals, rather we are likely to see restrictions on what can be done with them. For example if a species deemed to be high risk of becoming established trade and or possession controls could be enacted, i.e, it become illegal to breed that species or dispose of surplus stock. Obvious examples would be red-eared terrapins, I suspect they would be prohibited from private ownership, currently keepers would have a grandfather right to ‘keep’ specimens they already hold, but it would be illegal to breed them or give them to another person that is the kind of legislation I envisage. But who knows!!!!!!


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## HABU

banning pets creates habitat...

it's magical that way!


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## NickBenger

Chris Newman said:


> Obviously we cannot entirely be certain where this legislation is going, or what will be proposed. One thing that we can be sure of there will be no ‘mass cull’ of captive animals, rather we are likely to see restrictions on what can be done with them. For example if a species deemed to be high risk of becoming established trade and or possession controls could be enacted, i.e, it become illegal to breed that species or dispose of surplus stock. Obvious examples would be red-eared terrapins, I suspect they would be prohibited from private ownership, currently keepers would have a grandfather right to ‘keep’ specimens they already hold, but it would be illegal to breed them or give them to another person that is the kind of legislation I envisage. But who knows!!!!!!


Yep if they did put it out it would be like that, just think what happened when they banned pitbulls. Pretty much what you just said. I can't see this going ahead though personally


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## Chris Newman

TheDogMan said:


> Yep if they did put it out it would be like that, just think what happened when they banned pitbulls. Pretty much what you just said. I can't see this going ahead though personally


It will happen, the Commission is adamant it will have a policy [legislation] in place by the end of 2012, the only issue is how draconian it will be!


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## colinm

Would this not be very difficult to enforce,much the same as the European Protected Species legislation?
Potentially this could have a very damaging effect on the hobby.Would not Crested Geckos and Leopard Geckos be able to survive in theory in Southern Europe let alone some of the hardier species?


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## pete-vtr

It's the same stuff year in year out, not a story, not a report, not any sort of facts or evidence, vague information with no statistics just a snippet of propoganda.

did they check the origins of every animal to come up with the fact that they consider 'invasive' to be a majority?





Chris Newman said:


> The impact the campaign its self has had on reptile keeping is nil, zero, if anything it has probably attracted more interest in the hobby.


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## Gaboon

I think its important to make clear and recognise that there are most definitely quite a few invasive herps in the UK, not all are considered established but some are. All the UK invasive herps are native to Europe or a similar latitude to the west of the UK.This does not immediately justify banning large groups of reptiles deemed a risk because they fit such a general criteria. There have been problems regarding a few invasive species and our native biodiversity but we can learn from these and apply any knowledge gained to preventing things in a much more educated and calculated manner, rather than just banning things on a whim. The UK is VERY different to the U.S, Australia and quite likely every other place with a proposed ban/ban.


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## Spikebrit

Now thats interesting read. 

Chris, is there any way hobbyisits, can voice their opinion, petitions etc? if so these need to be pushed, so that people are correctly represented. 

Jay


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## colinm

Gaboon said:


> I think its important to make clear and recognise that there are most definitely quite a few invasive herps in the UK, not all are considered established but some are. All the UK invasive herps are native to Europe or a similar latitude to the west of the UK.This does not immediately justify banning large groups of reptiles deemed a risk because they fit such a general criteria. There have been problems regarding a few invasive species and our native biodiversity but we can learn from these and apply any knowledge gained to preventing things in a much more educated and calculated manner, rather than just banning things on a whim. The UK is VERY different to the U.S, Australia and quite likely every other place with a proposed ban/ban.


Exactly but as Chris was saying if it is a Europewide ban the species that can potentially live on the Mediterranean islands and Canary Islands are some of the mainstays of the hobby


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## Matt Harris

HABU said:


> i'd think differently if authorities actually were concerned about wildlife...
> 
> say your house is on fire... so you spray water on a bedroom... not very effective...
> 
> that's how wildlife is usually treated... spraying water on a bedroom doesn't solve the problem... the house is still burning... it becomes a silly attempt at doing something good...


To expand on your analogy, water IS being sprayed on the other rooms of the burning house, i.e. other causes of biodiversity decline are being tackled elsewhere - just because this initiative deals with invasive non-natives, doesn't mean that this is the only mechanism to halt biodiversity loss.

You refer to a bedroom; I think a more appropriate analogy would be the toilet or maybe a cupboard under the stairs. The detriment caused by INNS is dwarfed by e.g. habitat loss, fragmentation, climate change etc.

Sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a walnut if you ask me.


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## HABU

better stock up before things are taken away...


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## colinm

Its a interesting way of limiting the hobby.It would be fascinating to note what the total revenue of the hobby is because this could affect large companies like Zoomed down the line.


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## pete-vtr

HABU said:


> better stock up before things are taken away...


reptiles will only be driven 'underground' not taken away, just like dangerous breeds of dogs.

if anyone thinks all the american pit bulls in england are neutered,insured,microchipped,muzzled and registered under the dangerous dogs act1991 they are foolishly misguided...:whistling2:


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## Oderus

Im guessing here but I would think even if it's a "black list" not a "white list" it could still be quite heavy handed just as the DWA act was when it was introduced.

With the number of non native species kept and bred across the EU I can't see there being a full and detailed evaluation at a per species level, I.e. more lightly taxa "A" could be a threat in some warmer part of the EU but there are 4-5 others in that genus commonly kept so just add said genus to "black list" (and maybe related genera), still better then a "white/permited list" but maybe not by much...


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## Nick Masson

I cant stand the gov-ern-ment! Do-da do-da!....


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## leecb0

PETE-VTR I know you are only a young lad, but 10 years or so the hobby was within hours of being banned. Dont think it could happen? They said fox hunting could not be banned......
Just because something is popular it doesnt mean anything governments hear those organisations who shout the loadest, not those organisations who are the biggest. The Antis will be shouting loader than us for sure.

Here is a comparison with something else i have a passion for.
I go sea fishing, and the EU is trying to bring in laws that every angler will have to fill in fishing logs similar to comercial fishing, the government takes notice of the comercial fleet and not the recreational sea anglers.
RSD is worth well over 100million pounds to the economy and comercial fishing is worth less than 10 million and RSD supports thousands of jobs not hundreds like the comercials.


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## Nick Masson

leecb0 said:


> PETE-VTR I know you are only a young lad, but 10 years or so the hobby was within hours of being banned. Dont think it could happen? They said fox hunting could not be banned......
> Just because something is popular it doesnt mean anything governments hear those organisations who shout the loadest, not those organisations who are the biggest. The Antis will be shouting loader than us for sure.
> 
> Here is a comparison with something else i have a passion for.
> I go sea fishing, and the EU is trying to bring in laws that every angler will have to fill in fishing logs similar to comercial fishing, the government takes notice of the comercial fleet and not the recreational sea anglers.
> RSD is worth well over 100million pounds to the economy and comercial fishing is worth less than 10 million and RSD supports thousands of jobs not hundreds like the comercials.


Sad but true


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## HABU

i always thought the european union was a bad idea...

it's like europe trying to be a united states of america... with nations being states... sovereign ... yet not entirely...


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## HABU

so what invasive plant species are they concerned with?

will gardeners need covert gardens?:whistling2:


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## HABU

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/home/index.cfm


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## HABU

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/factsheet/index.cfm


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## Alfonzo

HABU said:


> so what invasive plant species are they concerned with?
> 
> will gardeners need covert gardens?:whistling2:


Just one example off the top of my head - japanese knotweed is an invasive species here and causes massive physical as well as ecological damage. As far as I know it was originally bought over as an ornamental plant, now places can't get rid of it fast enough.

One of the methods considered to remove the problem? Bring over a japanese bug that feeds on the plant....can anyone else see an Australia/Cane Toad situation emerging here?


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## HABU

people there keep raccoons... opossums... skunks... breed them...

i've warned folks about the impact of a few of these pets escaping there... they would thrive... just as they do here... and they would make any snake invasion... toad or whatever invasion seem charming in comparison...

there aren't that many animals that would thrive in the u.k.... not any tropical critters at any rate...

but these three would be like the grey squirrels... worse even...

garter snakes would thrive there... not very much else... some could get by and survive... reproduce... barely... so they wouldn't be a real problem...

mammals would be a bigger threat than all but all american herps...

so what if a salamander from here where i lived got established there?... it couldn't do any harm...

***** and possums on the other hand...:whistling2:

bugs would be a bigger threat than north american herps...


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## HABU

Alfonzo said:


> Just one example off the top of my head - japanese knotweed is an invasive species here and causes massive physical as well as ecological damage. As far as I know it was originally bought over as an ornamental plant, now places can't get rid of it fast enough.
> 
> One of the methods considered to remove the problem? Bring over a japanese bug that feeds on the plant....can anyone else see an Australia/Cane Toad situation emerging here?


 
you have poison ivy there?


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## Gaboon

colinm said:


> Exactly but as Chris was saying if it is a Europewide ban the species that can potentially live on the Mediterranean islands and Canary Islands are some of the mainstays of the hobby


Understood. I was in part trying to support the point made by Chris, that sweeping assumptions should not be the basis for such a proposal.

Why the UK is considered the same as the Canary Islands, even on matters of conservation, where differences in ecology and climate really should be primary considerations is beyond me. What a joke!

And another thing....

Is there any science behind this? When the US was threatened with a similar ban there was at least a few relevant studies that you may say prompted concern. Or do they not need science because the EU is actually all exactly the same?... _Apparently_


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## Oderus

Dave Im pretty sure ***** were kept on the DWA list for so long in part so they had to be kept in secure housing due to that fear, skunks and opossums I don't think were ever listed but I doubt many people had them when the act was passed.

Way things are now it would be closing the barn door after the bulls out trying to control people breeding them, but the whole idea of this legislation is just the same.


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## jona

Alfonzo said:


> Corns have been anecdotally reported to do just fine in our climate - parts of their range in the states get quite chilly too :| same can be said for many NA species. Agreed, South American and Asian species may be ok, but it isn't just the UK's climate we need to think about, its across the whole of the European Union - so Spain, France - much warmer than here. If something can exist there, it could be banned here.


Hench the reason why we dont need lighting/heating for ratsnakes?


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## Chris Newman

Gaboon said:


> Understood. I was in part trying to support the point made by Chris, that sweeping assumptions should not be the basis for such a proposal.
> 
> Why the UK is considered the same as the Canary Islands, even on matters of conservation, where differences in ecology and climate really should be primary considerations is beyond me. What a joke!


The reason for not making it regional is we have free trade within the EU, so anything in one part of the EU can be moved to another part of the EU without hindrance. So for argument sake if corn snakes were banned in Spain because they could reproduce, but not banned in say Germany, Spanish keepers could go to Hamm and buy corn snakes and bring them back – this is the thinking.


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## pete-vtr

leecb0 said:


> PETE-VTR I know you are only a young lad, but 10 years or so the hobby was within hours of being banned. Dont think it could happen? .


i owned a reptile 10years ago...im now 21 so you could say iv been in the hobby for 11years.. whats age got to do with this exactly?


No, is the simple answer i dont think it will happen...

have you read through the link provided? im guessing not, if you have then you will know there is no mention of reptiles on there anywhere, not even a hint. The reptile trade, no, the pet trade in this country is huge, the pet trade in the EU is even bigger! how do you think it would effect the EU if this trade was 'banned'? there would be a loss of millions if not billions of pounds/euros, jobs and probaly life...

does the EU really need another smack in the gob after the recession we have just had?


as before- not in a million years


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## Gaboon

Chris Newman said:


> The reason for not making it regional is we have free trade within the EU, so anything in one part of the EU can be moved to another part of the EU without hindrance. So for argument sake if corn snakes were banned in Spain because they could reproduce, but not banned in say Germany, Spanish keepers could go to Hamm and buy corn snakes and bring them back – this is the thinking.


Ah right. So its a case of the easy option. What is the plan for trying to tackle this?


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## colinm

I dont think that whether the trade is £5 per year or £5 billion will worry the Eurocrats.If they are determined to introduce this law they will.However I see that it will be very difficult to enforce but it could make the trade of animals very difficult and therefore stop the trade in time. 
How you can quantify an invasive species would be interesting and no doubt studies would be undertaken by very well paid scientists.


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## Alfonzo

HABU said:


> you have poison ivy there?


Um, I don't know, I don't think so.



jona said:


> Hench the reason why we dont need lighting/heating for ratsnakes?


I'm assuming that there is some sarcasm in this but I'll answer anyway - if I'm wrong, I apologise. The optimum conditions in captivity may involve lamps and stats and whatever other heating elements you want to discuss but the fact remains that there are american species that do alright in a temperate, almost British climate. Plenty of ppl have kept corns at room temps. Our conditions might not be ideal or preferred - that does not stop the fact that, in the words of Mr Goldblum 'life will find a way'

I'm not saying I agree with the ban or want it to happen but dismissing it as nonsense and never gonna happen, never going to affect the species you want to keep - is naive and foolhardy. Just remember it's Europe wide, applicable throughout. Some parts of Europe are actually pretty warm  so it doesn't just mean 'if the animal can survive in the derby dales, it's banned', it means 'if it can live in Italy, Spain or France, it'll be banned throughout europe'


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## Gaboon

colinm said:


> I dont think that whether the trade is £5 per year or £5 billion will worry the Eurocrats.If they are determined to introduce this law they will.However I see that it will be very difficult to enforce but it could make the trade of animals very difficult and therefore stop the trade in time.
> How you can quantify an invasive species would be interesting and no doubt studies would be undertaken by very *well paid scientists*.


Indeed...


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## blood and guts

pete-vtr said:


> i owned a reptile 10years ago...im now 21 so you could say iv been in the hobby for 11years.. whats age got to do with this exactly?
> 
> 
> No, is the simple answer i dont think it will happen...
> 
> have you read through the link provided? im guessing not, if you have then you will know there is no mention of reptiles on there anywhere, not even a hint. The reptile trade, no, the pet trade in this country is huge, the pet trade in the EU is even bigger! how do you think it would effect the EU if this trade was 'banned'? there would be a loss of millions if not billions of pounds/euros, jobs and probaly life...
> 
> does the EU really need another smack in the gob after the recession we have just had?
> 
> 
> as before- not in a million years


With regard the age thing many of the younger keepers simply do not understand what was going on 10+ years ago as fare as the dangers to the hobby go. Its not a dig at age at all, just a statment of fact. We simply nearly did not have a hobby or pets at one stage.


And as fare as the eu goes, look into a lot of the laws that come from there. Common sense and best practice are not what makes the eu tick sadly and as such the current reviews are a real and ever present danger that could indeed come through.


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## MattClare

Chris Newman said:


> The reason for not making it regional is we have free trade within the EU, so anything in one part of the EU can be moved to another part of the EU without hindrance. So for argument sake if corn snakes were banned in Spain because they could reproduce, but not banned in say Germany, Spanish keepers could go to Hamm and buy corn snakes and bring them back – this is the thinking.


States do have limted power to ban imports/exports. If a country wanted to, for example, seriously ban RES as they can be a invasive species, they already can using Art 36 TFEU (I am using a pre Lisbon text book which pre guesses the new numbering) which contains defences to Distinctly and indistinctly applicable measures, taken by the MS. It can be justified as long as it can be proved the animal or plant effects the MS. I cant see much justification for EU wide provisions, as it can already be tailored by Member States.

As for the EU not legislating limiting industries for economic reasons. Although ofcourse it must be a consideration, it didnt stop them with fishing regulations for example.


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## jona

Alfonzo said:


> Um, I don't know, I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that there is some sarcasm in this but I'll answer anyway - if I'm wrong, I apologise. The optimum conditions in captivity may involve lamps and stats and whatever other heating elements you want to discuss but the fact remains that there are american species that do alright in a temperate, almost British climate. Plenty of ppl have kept corns at room temps. Our conditions might not be ideal or preferred - that does not stop the fact that, in the words of Mr Goldblum 'life will find a way'
> 
> I'm not saying I agree with the ban or want it to happen but dismissing it as nonsense and never gonna happen, never going to affect the species you want to keep - is naive and foolhardy. Just remember it's Europe wide, applicable throughout. Some parts of Europe are actually pretty warm  so it doesn't just mean 'if the animal can survive in the derby dales, it's banned', it means 'if it can live in Italy, Spain or France, it'll be banned throughout europe'


Sorry it was dry sarcasm..:lol2: private joke with myself....oh how i love my way of thinking:2thumb:


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## Chris Newman

Clarebear said:


> States do have limted power to ban imports/exports. If a country wanted to, for example, seriously ban RES as they can be a invasive species, they already can using Art 36 TFEU (I am using a pre Lisbon text book which pre guesses the new numbering) which contains defences to Distinctly and indistinctly applicable measures, taken by the MS. It can be justified as long as it can be proved the animal or plant effects the MS. I cant see much justification for EU wide provisions, as it can already be tailored by Member States.
> 
> As for the EU not legislating limiting industries for economic reasons. Although ofcourse it must be a consideration, it didnt stop them with fishing regulations for example.


Predominantly the point I raised relates to imports into the community, three schedules are proposed:

Import into the community.
Trade, domestic and intercommunity
Possession

The first stage is imports, currently we effectively have a black list, i.e. species prohibited for imports such as red-ears. The current thinking is to have a white list, i.e. a list of species which can be imported.

The scenario suggested about corns applies, although States do have limited powers, without boarders it is difficult to enforce, that is one of the issues and why there is a push for community wide restrictions.


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## Pete Q

Looks to me we will have to make a stand again, remembering what happened when Lush had a go at our hobby.
We need that again and some.
Your hobby needs you.


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## leecb0

pete-vtr said:


> i owned a reptile 10years ago...im now 21 so you could say iv been in the hobby for 11years.. whats age got to do with this exactly?
> 
> 
> No, is the simple answer i dont think it will happen...
> 
> have you read through the link provided? im guessing not, if you have then you will know there is no mention of reptiles on there anywhere, not even a hint. The reptile trade, no, the pet trade in this country is huge, the pet trade in the EU is even bigger! how do you think it would effect the EU if this trade was 'banned'? there would be a loss of millions if not billions of pounds/euros, jobs and probaly life...
> 
> does the EU really need another smack in the gob after the recession we have just had?
> 
> 
> as before- not in a million years


I was not having a go at your age, i was saying being only 21 you wouldnt have known the strains the hobby was under at that time, not a dig in the slightest.

Also you couldnt have read the rest of my post about sea fishing?
The EU is trying to lump in the thousands of sea anglers with the comercials, which would mean we will be limited to what we can go and catch. The fact that recreational sea angling in this country alone is worth 100 million pounds or more, than comercial fishing and supports more jobs means nothing. 

You say it doesnt mention reptiles, it isnt just reptiles thats at stake its EVERY ANIMAL that is non native and kept as pets. so it will affect all exotics not just reptiles. Honestly my friend it is a real threat as has said before there are a lot of stupid and lunatic laws that are passed down from the EU, and as an member our country will have to comply. The people who make these laws are detached from reality so it makes no odds to them if a certain trade is makeing a lot of money or not unless its making them a lot of money. If we make a stand with people from other countries then perhaps it wont happen. Just as 10 years ago people didnt know we nearly had our hobby banned this was fought by the people like Chris from behind the scenes.


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## HABU

bureaucrats...:whip:


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## colinm

HABU said:


> bureaucrats...:whip:


Eurocrats !! Ten times worse and paid ten times the salary:whip:


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## Ssthisto

pete-vtr said:


> No, is the simple answer i dont think it will happen...


Do us a favour. 

Find an _Ophisaurus apodus_ for sale in the UK. Or a breeder of the species.


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## Harbinger

TL: DR

Why are they doing this?


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## colinm

Ssthisto said:


> Do us a favour.
> 
> Find an _Ophisaurus apodus_ for sale in the UK. Or a breeder of the species.


You`ll be lucky.Saw one in Hamm,very expensive now.


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## Ssthisto

colinm said:


> You`ll be lucky.Saw one in Hamm,very expensive now.


Precisely. 

And the people in the UK who have them aren't breeding them.


----------



## pete-vtr

Ssthisto said:


> Do us a favour.
> 
> Find an _Ophisaurus apodus_ for sale in the UK. Or a breeder of the species.


Im affraid they're on the European Protected Species legislation as a controlled species.

if you can find one to buy then assume its been illegally wild-caught!


----------



## Ssthisto

pete-vtr said:


> Im affraid they're on the European Protected Species legislation as a controlled species.
> 
> if you can find one to buy then assume its been illegally wild-caught!


Congratulations, you worked out why it's difficult to get a not-native-to-the-UK exotic in the UK.... and that legislation was passed in the UK in its present form a mere five years ago, with the grace period ending less than four years ago.

They CAN be bred in captivity, there are animals that are legally owned... but try proving it. People who own 'em don't dare breed 'em because the burden of proof is on the keeper to prove their animals were obtained legally, not for the prosecutor to prove they were obtained illegally.

Still think that the EU can't force restrictive-of-reptile-keeping legislation on the UK?


----------



## Fionab

what i cant see is how they are going to police it if it goes through,
it would of course mean that almost every domesticated pet will be banned, canines other than a fox is not native now to this country, neither is felines apart from the scottish wild cat, budgies canaries hamsters, tropical fish, parrots, cockatiels parakeets, the list goes on and on. in fact very few domesticated animals at all are native to this country.
where do they draw the line how ar they going to police it and how can they afford to police it?


----------



## Ssthisto

They'll probably give the *domesticated* animals a pass - particularly the ones of "economic interest".

But exotics? Not so much so.


----------



## pete-vtr

Ssthisto said:


> Congratulations, you worked out why it's difficult to get a not-native-to-the-UK exotic in the UK....
> 
> They CAN be bred in captivity, there are animals that are legally owned... but try proving it. People who own 'em don't dare breed 'em because the burden of proof is on the keeper to prove their animals were obtained legally, not for the prosecutor to prove they were obtained illegally.
> 
> Still think that the EU can't force restrictive-of-reptile-keeping legislation on the UK?


where did i ever mention restrictions? i think you will find i was refering to the hooby/trade being BANNED :bash:


----------



## colinm

The statement mentions potentially invasive animals so I dont think that would apply to most domesticated animals and we already have wild rabbits by the million.Cats maybe :whistling2:


----------



## HABU

Ssthisto said:


> They'll probably give the *domesticated* animals a pass - particularly the ones of "economic interest".
> 
> But exotics? Not so much so.


 
these morphs might be considered domestic one day... just wild snakes/normally patterned will be considered...

just a thought... they can decide anything...


----------



## pete-vtr

lets flip this on its head, IF there was to be another 'restriction' put in place as appose to a ban, whats stopping breeders breeding hybrids and selling those on? 


because its neither one or the other... it would be a new species that wasnt on the list?


----------



## Ssthisto

pete-vtr said:


> where did i ever mention restrictions? i think you will find i was refering to the hooby/trade being BANNED :bash:


A ban is easier to do if you make it a death of a thousand cuts.

Introduce a licencing scheme for these species, with licences often very expensive or difficult to obtain.
Introduce legislation stating you can't get a license for these other species unless you're one of certain specific groups.
Introduce legislation stating you can't breed or sell these, those and them because they're potentially invasive... in somewhere four hundred miles further south.

They don't have to say "hand in all your cornsnakes NOW."
They just have to make it impossible for you to buy any and impossible to sell any you've bred ....


----------



## HABU

i'm here to inspect you...


----------



## Ssthisto

pete-vtr said:


> lets flip this on its head, IF there was to be another 'restriction' put in place as appose to a ban, whats stopping breeders breeding hybrids and selling those on?
> 
> 
> because its neither one or the other... it would be a new species that wasnt on the list?


The way hybrids seem to be handled in the legislation thus far (in terms of DWA legislation, at least) is:



> Any hybrid of a kind of animal specified (other than by way of exception) in the foregoing provisions of this column where at least one
> parent of a specified kind, and any animal of which at least one parent is of a kind so specified, and any animal of which at least one parent
> is such a hybrid


So a hybrid would be counted as though it's essentially the same as its regulated parent.

That said, if they're similar enough to hybridise they're likely to be on the same legislation.


----------



## pete-vtr

exactly like you say it would just be easier to ban them all.

which brings me back to my original statement that the EU would loose millions/billions in trade and reptiles would merely be driven underground, not stamped out. Just like certain breeds of dog such as american pitbulls which can still be purchased right now if you know where to go...


----------



## leecb0

pete-vtr said:


> exactly like you say it would just be easier to ban them all.
> 
> which brings me back to my original statement that the EU would loose millions/billions in trade and reptiles would merely be driven underground, not stamped out. Just like certain breeds of dog such as american pitbulls which can still be purchased right now if you know where to go...


Money will mean nothing, They are trying to bring in plans to regulate recreational sea fishing which is worth billions to economies in europe over comercial fishing that is not worth anywhere as much. 

Look at it from there point of view not your own. Banning the import of animals will help possible problems with eco systems if a species ever got a foot hold in a country. Just look at Florida and what has happend there, they have real proof of what can happen and not supposition. In florida you are not allowed to keep a lot of the big snakes without a license and they only gave licences to those who allready had the animals, and im sure they are not allowed to breed them. 
So do you still think it is impossible?


----------



## Fionab

im not sure how they can differentiate between domesticated animals and anything else tho, 
im not 100% sure but i read/heard that is an animal has bred for over 10 years in this country it is then declared a native.

A dog or cat is more likely to survive in the wild than a python, indeed cats have almost eradicated the scottish wild cat population to almost only 500 in the wild now
how many of our native snakes has non native snakes affected?

its going to be interesting watching how it develops


----------



## pete-vtr

leecb0 said:


> Money will mean nothing, They are trying to bring in plans to regulate recreational sea fishing which is worth billions to economies in europe over comercial fishing that is not worth anywhere as much.
> 
> Look at it from there point of view not your own. Banning the import of animals will help possible problems with eco systems if a species ever got a foot hold in a country. Just look at Florida and what has happend there, they have real proof of what can happen and not supposition. In florida you are not allowed to keep a lot of the big snakes without a license and they only gave licences to those who allready had the animals, and im sure they are not allowed to breed them.
> So do you still think it is impossible?


lee in florida there is only a restriction on keeping the top 5 biggest constrictors: retics, burms, afrocks, anacondas and the amethystine python. 


do i think a ban on all exotics in the eu will be passed?...as before; No


----------



## Fionab

and you cant compare what has happened in florida with here, those animals can and do live and breed in that climate ............ how many of the snakes and other animals are able to live and breed in Britain, bearing in mind as well its even LESS likely the further north you come!
its like comparing chalk and cheese, not a fair comparison


----------



## leecb0

pete-vtr said:


> lee in florida there is only a restriction on keeping the top 5 biggest constrictors: retics, burms, afrocks, anacondas and the amethystine python.
> 
> 
> do i think a ban on all exotics in the eu will be passed?...as before; No


Yes there are only restrictions but those restrictions mean they are not allowed to import, breed, sell or trade them and where last year only given to those that actually oned them. as i said. so they are very restrictive legistlations if you ask me.

Weather they will ban them or not is another thing, and if we dont do anything and they do what you going to do...
I know what you will say though if they dont....see i told you so, but how do you know they didnt do it because of the pressure from reptile keepers? As i have said i have seen this hobby within hours of being banned so i know for sure any threat is a threat, just saying something is too big or worth too much is complete crap, Smoking is being banned left right and centre and that makes the treasury billions.....


----------



## leecb0

Fionab said:


> and you cant compare what has happened in florida with here, those animals can and do live and breed in that climate ............ how many of the snakes and other animals are able to live and breed in Britain, bearing in mind as well its even LESS likely the further north you come!
> its like comparing chalk and cheese, not a fair comparison


Right i dont think you have grasped the implications.
The proposals are european wide so if a snake for instance can servive in spain for instance then it will be banned throughout the whole of the EU including the UK even though the snake may not be able to servive. 
As for what other snake could possibly live in Britain are you really asking that.
ok some american rat snakes could, some asian rat snakes could, garter snakes could, There just a few off the top of my head, there is possibly a lot of snakes that could servive even our cold winters as they are very adaptive and herdier than you think.


----------



## StuG

I totally agree with Leechbo. Why risk sitting around doing nothing. I would like to see strong leadership from the IHS or FBH and being supported by everyone with an interest in reps.
Targeted campaigns (letter writing and petitions) at MP's, the FBH and IHS becoming more high profile, better communication and updates from the IHS etc and numerous other options could all be explored.
It might cost a little time and effort but doing nothing could end up costing us the hobby.


----------



## leecb0

Stu.G said:


> I totally agree with Leechbo. Why risk sitting around doing nothing. I would like to see strong leadership from the IHS or FBH and being supported by everyone with an interest in reps.
> Targeted campaigns (letter writing and petitions) at MP's, the FBH and IHS becoming more high profile, better communication and updates from the IHS etc and numerous other options could all be explored.
> It might cost a little time and effort but doing nothing could end up costing us the hobby.


I agree Stu. ghb.......its ok thinking it just wont happen for what ever reason yea sure it might not but unless Petevtr knows something that the rest of us dont its something thats worth taking note of. Also this country have a history of implimenting everything that the EU bring in. As i have said it actually doesnt effect me in any way as i am moving to a non EU country in a couple of months, but i would rather it doesnt come in and if that means a bit of effort from my part then i am going to give it.


----------



## Spikebrit

leecb0 said:


> Right i dont think you have grasped the implications.
> The proposals are european wide so if a snake for instance can servive in spain for instance then it will be banned throughout the whole of the EU including the UK even though the snake may not be able to servive.
> As for what other snake could possibly live in Britain are you really asking that.
> ok some american rat snakes could, some asian rat snakes could, garter snakes could, There just a few off the top of my head, there is possibly a lot of snakes that could servive even our cold winters as they are very adaptive and herdier than you think.



I think you have said that really well. I have been debating this point with many keepers all day. So many people keeping think of only the British Climate, they dont seem to grasp that is something can surrive anywere between Spain and Finland and many other places then it stands a very good chance of being banned under this legeslation. 

I think a majority of what I keep stands a chance of being banned, and I have a very unusual collection compared to most. I think even more keepers stands a chance of loosing most of their collections. 

It was only 10 or so years ago that the hobby was close to being banned once, and people said it would never happen. The same is happening again and so many keeper just can't seem to comprehend how real of a risk it really is. 

jay


----------



## Spikebrit

leecb0 said:


> I agree Stu. ghb.......its ok thinking it just wont happen for what ever reason yea sure it might not but unless Petevtr knows something that the rest of us dont its something thats worth taking note of. Also this country have a history of implimenting everything that the EU bring in. As i have said it actually doesnt effect me in any way as i am moving to a non EU country in a couple of months, but i would rather it doesnt come in and if that means a bit of effort from my part then i am going to give it.


If these restirctions decide to come in, i may not be far behind you. There are non-Eu contries calling out for people with my skills, so I may just pack up and leave. 

Jay


----------



## leecb0

I know the arguments i have heard why it wont be banned are things like.
Its too big a hobby and too many keepers..Or its such a big hobby and the amount of money it generates they wont do it because of that....or how are they going to police it....well here is my take on all of the above.

to big a hobby....really it isnt that big. there are proberbly no more that a hundred or so thousand keepers and out of all of them how many are really that serious? european wide there is going to be a lot more but really how massive is it? i would say there are a lot of hobbys with far more people doing it throughout europe than keeping reptiles.

the amount of money it generates.
Well the eurocrats are not botherd by that. they have continually messed around with fishing laws which brings in billions more than reptile keeping does....they have made laws against smoking which is a huge money earner......also remember a lot of money especially when it comes to the sale of animals from breeders and importers proberbly doesnt get taxed so governments dont see any revenue from that and if they do they are not going to earn much.

how will they police it.
They are not going to knock on every houshold telling them to bring out there reps...there wont be an amnasty. But if they outlaw importing, selling, therefore breeding will be pointless eventually over the years the livestock we have will eventually die out, with nothing to replace them, end of story.

OK it might not come to this but then again it might. we need the rest of europe to follow suit.


----------



## red foot marg

I think its a great idea , why should people make money from importing wild animals , after all it would stop thousands of reptiles diying every year in the hands of the pet trade.


----------



## Ssthisto

red foot marg said:


> I think its a great idea , why should people make money from importing wild animals , after all it would stop thousands of reptiles diying every year in the hands of the pet trade.


Except that this proposed legislation is NOTHING to do with "importing wild animals".

Did you actually *read *what it's about?

It's about saying "Species that are kept as pets are potentially invasive in some parts of the EU. We're not happy about that (which is reasonable!) so we're going to make up laws to prevent people from keeping those species as pets. It might take the form of restricting trade - if you have one you can't sell it, if you have one you can't breed it, nobody can buy them - to ban by attrition, or it might result in licencing being brought in."

Corn snakes and the vast majority of North American ratsnakes aren't "imported wild animals" - they're many generations captive bred. But if someone decides that they might survive and breed if enough escaped in, say, Spain ...


----------



## red foot marg

ok i admit it was late last night when i read it, its abit late to stop species breeding here in the wild just look at the little owl and grey squirrel.


----------



## Fionab

leecb0 said:


> Right i dont think you have grasped the implications.
> The proposals are european wide so if a snake for instance can servive in spain for instance then it will be banned throughout the whole of the EU including the UK even though the snake may not be able to servive.
> As for what other snake could possibly live in Britain are you really asking that.
> ok some american rat snakes could, some asian rat snakes could, garter snakes could, There just a few off the top of my head, there is possibly a lot of snakes that could servive even our cold winters as they are very adaptive and herdier than you think.


i have grasped the implications, they havent decided if the white/black lists will cover each member state or europe as a whole, and to say that these snakes can survive in britain is giving the wrong implication surely.

1. to survive is one thing, to reproduce and thrive to the detriment of any of our native species is another thing altogether and THAT is the whole reason for the act, to stop any ecological imbalance caused by the introduction of a non native species ( case in point the grey squirrel almost eradicating the red).

2. to say that a snake can survive in Britain is implying it can live anywhere in Britain. The climate on the south coast for example is no where near the same as the climate in the North East. so these snakes may well be able to survive down there, doesnt mean they could up here.


----------



## Fionab

has no one started an E-petition for it? as that is the offical government petition.


----------



## Spikebrit

Fionab said:


> has no one started an E-petition for it? as that is the offical government petition.


here you go

Stop The Herping Ban

Also, it doesnt just mean the UK, this is what people are getting cought up on. Any animal for example that could surrive in spain, very differnt climate will be banned. as the legislateiong will ocver the entirity of the EU. 

Jay


----------



## Spikebrit

leecb0 said:


> I know the arguments i have heard why it wont be banned are things like.
> Its too big a hobby and too many keepers..Or its such a big hobby and the amount of money it generates they wont do it because of that....or how are they going to police it....well here is my take on all of the above.
> 
> to big a hobby....really it isnt that big. there are proberbly no more that a hundred or so thousand keepers and out of all of them how many are really that serious? european wide there is going to be a lot more but really how massive is it? i would say there are a lot of hobbys with far more people doing it throughout europe than keeping reptiles.
> 
> the amount of money it generates.
> Well the eurocrats are not botherd by that. they have continually messed around with fishing laws which brings in billions more than reptile keeping does....they have made laws against smoking which is a huge money earner......also remember a lot of money especially when it comes to the sale of animals from breeders and importers proberbly doesnt get taxed so governments dont see any revenue from that and if they do they are not going to earn much.
> 
> how will they police it.
> They are not going to knock on every houshold telling them to bring out there reps...there wont be an amnasty. But if they outlaw importing, selling, therefore breeding will be pointless eventually over the years the livestock we have will eventually die out, with nothing to replace them, end of story.
> 
> OK it might not come to this but then again it might. we need the rest of europe to follow suit.


exactly, so many rep keepers need to pull their head out of their backside/sand and start to see that there is a very real chance most rep species stand a chance of being banned. So many of the more commonly kept speices now stand a chance of being banned, and people just arnt grasping how serious this could be for us. 

Jay


----------



## leecb0

Fionab said:


> i have grasped the implications, they havent decided if the white/black lists will cover each member state or europe as a whole, and to say that these snakes can survive in britain is giving the wrong implication surely. There are many snakes that are kept in captivity that could possibly servive in the british isles.
> 
> 1. to survive is one thing, to reproduce and thrive to the detriment of any of our native species is another thing altogether and THAT is the whole reason for the act, to stop any ecological imbalance caused by the introduction of a non native species ( case in point the grey squirrel almost eradicating the red).
> The grey squirrel has only damaged the red population due to the desise it carried i believe and has nothing to do with it being invasive. Also we have thriving populations of non native snakes and lizards within the uk so your point is busted there.
> 
> 2. to say that a snake can survive in Britain is implying it can live anywhere in Britain. The climate on the south coast for example is no where near the same as the climate in the North East. so these snakes may well be able to survive down there, doesnt mean they could up here.


What a load of tosh.....adders servive from spain to the north east of england so thats another of your theorys busted. But as i have said look at it from a non keepers point of view, Places like florida are a good argument for those who want to bring this law in, you can say it wont happen all you like but the truth is IF anything was to happen we dont know for sure what would or could happen if an invasive species were to be released in any numbers.


----------



## Fionab

Spikebrit said:


> here you go
> 
> Stop The Herping Ban
> 
> Also, it doesnt just mean the UK, this is what people are getting cought up on. Any animal for example that could surrive in spain, very differnt climate will be banned. as the legislateiong will ocver the entirity of the EU.
> 
> Jay


i know, but they havent decided that, they are debating wither to have individual white ;'/ black lists for each member state OR to have ones that wioll cover the whole of the EU

that isnt an offical E-petition linked to the governments web site.


----------



## Fionab

leecb0 said:


> What a load of tosh.....adders servive from spain to the north east of england so thats another of your theorys busted. But as i have said look at it from a non keepers point of view, Places like florida are a good argument for those who want to bring this law in, you can say it wont happen all you like but the truth is IF anything was to happen we dont know for sure what would or could happen if an invasive species were to be released in any numbers.


i dont get your arguement, to say that the grey squirrel brought about the demise by diseases ( which is not infact totally correct, the grey breeds easier and quicker and is more gregarious therefore takes over the natives red habitat at an increased pace and that is why it is effecting the population) but even it it was only diseases, these diseases wouldnt be there if it wasnt for the introduction of the grey in the first place... therefore it IS invasive!


sorry but just in case you havent noticed that the north east of england is NOT the British border.



there are probably far more Adders north of the ENGLISH border. than south of it, but we are not talking about adders are we.? as they are a native species, and therefore not likely to be banned, so im not sure how that even touches what i was saying...........

Of course it could happen if you are talking about a species that could survive and reproduce, but would a royal python? would a burm would a boa>? would any of these including corns survive and breed to the detriment of our native flora and fauna? especially in Scotland? after all its a totally different climate to the south coast of england.

and iof as you say there are plenty of non native reps in the wild are they becoming a detriment to the native ones? if not they wont be on the list anyway! as its is only to cover the non native INVASIVE species and that means the ones that will create an inbalance in our natural ecosystem. animals that live and thrive side by side are not termed invasive if they do not create an imbalance.

we could go on and on. fact is that if this thing goes thru then ALL animal keepers not just reptile keepers will be effected in one way or another, what we need is to get them to change it so that the lists are state specific and not europe wide. and to go for a registration and chipping rather than outright ban


----------



## leecb0

Fionab said:


> i dont get your arguement, to say that the grey squirrel brought about the demise by diseases ( which is not infact totally correct, the grey breeds easier and quicker and is more gregarious therefore takes over the natives red habitat at an increased pace and that is why it is effecting the population) but even it it was only diseases, these diseases wouldnt be there if it wasnt for the introduction of the grey in the first place... therefore it IS invasive!
> 
> 
> sorry but just in case you havent noticed that the north east of england is NOT the British border.
> 
> 
> 
> there are probably far more Adders north of the ENGLISH border. than south of it, but we are not talking about adders are we.? as they are a native species, and therefore not likely to be banned, so im not sure how that even touches what i was saying...........
> 
> Of course it could happen if you are talking about a species that could survive and reproduce, but would a royal python? would a burm would a boa>? would any of these including corns survive and breed to the detriment of our native flora and fauna? especially in Scotland? after all its a totally different climate to the south coast of england.
> 
> and iof as you say there are plenty of non native reps in the wild are they becoming a detriment to the native ones? if not they wont be on the list anyway! as its is only to cover the non native INVASIVE species and that means the ones that will create an inbalance in our natural ecosystem. animals that live and thrive side by side are not termed invasive if they do not create an imbalance.
> 
> we could go on and on. fact is that if this thing goes thru then ALL animal keepers not just reptile keepers will be effected in one way or another, what we need is to get them to change it so that the lists are state specific and not europe wide. and to go for a registration and chipping rather than outright ban


Do all scottish people argue for arguements sake?
What is your point?
you know what might happen. fact is it doesnt matter if an animal can live on the south coast or not for gods sake the ban could be european wide.
My point about the adder is that you said that just because an animal can live on the south coast with its climate it might not survive up north cos the climartes different........so i gave you an example which proved what you said is not correct..........then you go on to contradict yourself about saying there are proberbly more adders in scotland......that is argueing for arguements sake if you ask me ......:bash::bash::bash::bash:

And as for the grey squirrell displacing the grey squirrell i suppose how you look at it, one of the problems is that red's are prone to dieing from Parapoxy virus which the greys are immune to but are carriers. Also reds dont breed as well or as much as the greays and cant handle habitat distruction as much as the greys. so it isnt that the reds have been pushed out by the greys its the greys are more adaptive and hardy. so to say the greys are the reason is infact incorrect.

And personally i dont give a toss as i will be living in a non eu country so you lot can carry on argueing the toss as much as you like i have hade enough.:Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Spikebrit

Fionab said:


> i know, but they havent decided that, they are debating wither to have individual white ;'/ black lists for each member state OR to have ones that wioll cover the whole of the EU
> 
> that isnt an offical E-petition linked to the governments web site.


I didn't wet it up. 

if you know how to set up and e-petition it would be appriciated. Anything to try and get our voice heard. 

Jay


----------



## Chris Newman

Ssthisto said:


> A ban is easier to do if you make it a death of a thousand cuts.
> 
> Introduce a licencing scheme for these species, with licences often very expensive or difficult to obtain.
> Introduce legislation stating you can't get a license for these other species unless you're one of certain specific groups.
> Introduce legislation stating you can't breed or sell these, those and them because they're potentially invasive... in somewhere four hundred miles further south.
> 
> They don't have to say "hand in all your cornsnakes NOW."
> They just have to make it impossible for you to buy any and impossible to sell any you've bred ....


Very, very perceptive, this is precisely how I envisage EU driven legislation could work.


----------



## Ssthisto

Chris Newman said:


> Very, very perceptive, this is precisely how I envisage EU driven legislation could work.


And just to clarify... the first two have already happened.

You need a potentially expensive (and sometimes extremely difficult to obtain, if not impossible due to council policies, legal or otherwise) licence to keep animals that are on the DWA listing.

It is, insofar as I have been able to determine, not possible for a private keeper to obtain a licence to keep EPS species that they cannot _prove _were legally obtained - museums and educational institutions and taxidermists, sure...


----------



## Chris Newman

Ssthisto said:


> And just to clarify... the first two have already happened.
> 
> You need a potentially expensive (and sometimes extremely difficult to obtain, if not impossible due to council policies, legal or otherwise) licence to keep animals that are on the DWA listing.
> 
> It is, insofar as I have been able to determine, not possible for a private keeper to obtain a licence to keep EPS species that they cannot _prove _were legally obtained - museums and educational institutions and taxidermists, sure...


Personally I am not aware of any licences issued under the EPS to private keepers, that doesn’t mean there aren’t any, just I am not aware of them. Might be worth while if I ask if any such licences have been issued to private keepers!

So far there have not been any issues/prosecutions under the EPS, but I suspect it’s only a matter of time!! The problem, as always, is this reverse burden of proof – they don’t have to prove the animals are wild, you have to prove they are captive bred in order to avoid licensing… something that is virtually impossible to do. If we want an example of what can happen, simply look British bird keeping, virtually driven to extinction!


----------



## Blaptica

The Portuguese government are working on a black list right now and have already published a list and proposed legislation. 

Some of the listed species are quite shocking. It includes the common brown rat - that includes the lab rat many of you feed to your snakes. Also the common goldfish and many common Terrapin species. 

I have at around 10 common garden plants in my garden that would be banned, and would make me a criminal in the future if I continue to grow them. 

This legislation talked about here will be EU wide. We should be worried.


----------



## red foot marg

Chris Newman said:


> Personally I am not aware of any licences issued under the EPS to private keepers, that doesn’t mean there aren’t any, just I am not aware of them. Might be worth while if I ask if any such licences have been issued to private keepers!
> 
> So far there have not been any issues/prosecutions under the EPS, but I suspect it’s only a matter of time!! The problem, as always, is this reverse burden of proof – they don’t have to prove the animals are wild, you have to prove they are captive bred in order to avoid licensing… something that is virtually impossible to do. If we want an example of what can happen, simply look British bird keeping, virtually driven to extinction!


I'm lost !, can you tell me how this might affect me keeping and breeding hermann and spur-thighed tortoise's that all have full a10 certificates ???


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## Blaptica

red foot marg said:


> I'm lost !, can you tell me how this might affect me keeping and breeding hermann and spur-thighed tortoise's that all have full a10 certificates ???


you have nothing to worry about. The A10 is the proof.


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## joeyboy

I don't remember the census asking me about pets I keep...so are they going to go house to house for every home in the UK, to search for these "invasive" pets? Seems like it'll be hard to enforce..


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## jack_rep

I think we need to remember that this isnt just a pop against reptile keepers, and that when you think about the industry wide impact things such as a "white list" could have then the use of it is highly unlikely.

Think about the gardening industry for instance. Imposing a requirement for every plant species brought in to be assessed for its propensity to infect native areas would be a HUGELY expensive and time consuming job.

Such legislation would bring industries like farming, agriculture, gardening, the pet trade to its knees overnight.

A black list to me would seem like a perfectly reasonable idea. Hard for us to appreciate it in the UK, but think of the burmese python problem in the Florida keys? If there was a species of snake brought into the UK pet trade that could cope with our climate, bred at an alarming rate and started occupying peoples home then im sure most would support the banning of import of the species. Its just common sense.

And concerning the question of whether it would be applied in the individual member states or just a blanket EU lists. There are doctrines built into both EU and domestic government law that prevents this sort of "using a sledge hammer to crack enough". The regulation needs to be at the minimum to achieve the desired result the legislation is looking to achieve. Otherwise it could just be challenged in the European court of justice.


Anyway, dont we already have laws covering this areas in the UK and europe already? Grey squirrels... im pretty sure if you happen to catch one then its illegal to release it. I think its a similar story with Carp in some other countries. 

No one in their right mind is going to introduce a blanket law that would ban cats, dogs, parrots, hamsters, gerbils ect until each species has gone through screening. It just wouldnt work.


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## Lord Vetinari

A very important side of this is that it would affect the sale/import/breeding of feeders? Very few of the reptiles commonly kept are exclusively herbivores. 

Roaches, locusts and many others would be more then happy living in this country (and indeed any country they are not native to). They are some of the hardiest creatures on this planet. 

There would be little point in keeping a reptile if you had nothing to feed it.

Although there will be ways round this (breeding of native species etc) things could get tricky very quickly. ie. Your beardie/leo etc is white listed as it is deemed non-invassive. However you know those roaches/locusts/crickets/mealies you were feeding him?.....yeah sorry - black listed. 

Could prehaps be worth passing this on to suppliers/breeders of feeder insects? At least start getting some breeding colonies of native insects going. 

Also: 

Why action is needed now!:

1) The restrictions are based on each Member State (MS) declaring a white list. - I feel this is quite likely, it will be easy enough to draft and ratify. However it does open up the oppertunity for lobbying MPs and making it a local issue. 

2) The restrictions are based on each MS declaring a black list. - As above really. Here in the UK I would have thought we stand a good chance of making a case that _most (not all)_ reps would be classified as 'non-invasive' as I doubt (though I will prob be corrected on this) that they would not be able to survive a winter here - let alone breed. 

3) The restrictions are based on a white list on a ecology by ecology basis. - This would be insane. The ecology/cliamate can vary wildly within a country - let a lone accross the MS. This would make import laws a beaucratic nightmare for starters. With miles of red tape. Plus very easy to circumvent - I will be nipping up to Scotland or over to Norway for my cresties and Leos for one! It would also be a pity as this makes the most logical sense from a keepers perspective. I suppose that the UK could legislate per county which would mean a liscencing system similar to DWA. 

4) The restrictions are based on a black list on a ecology by ecology basis. - Only slightly less insane then above, same problems as above. 

5) A EU wide list is agreed with each member state and ratified. - Sadly the most likely. Easy to work up/draft and ratify quickly with minimum fuss. Which means that as your reptile can survive in the south of Spain, you can kiss it good bye - no matter if you live in the Outer Hebredies. Or Norway.


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## Ssthisto

joeyboy said:


> I don't remember the census asking me about pets I keep...so are they going to go house to house for every home in the UK, to search for these "invasive" pets? Seems like it'll be hard to enforce..


They don't need to do that.

All they have to do is say to your local shop "you may not sell species from this list and you may not purchase species from this list."

Then they just have to watch places like this for people advertising animals for sale that are on the list... and prevent people from selling them. Sure, there'll be underground sales, but I can tell you right now that if I knew that selling a baby corn snake could _potentially _cost me a couple hundred in fines, I wouldn't be BREEDING cornsnakes any more.


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## jack_rep

If you read the actually report cited by the OP, its really not as much a dooms day as is being made out here. Yes this could end up in more red tape for cross border traders based on the recommendation that has been made. But unless your a American bullfrog breeder I dont see how its a concern. The legislation is focused on species that are damaging to either humans or the environment. 

Yes we may lose a couple of species off the import lists, but....

- if these species risk damaging local ecosystems, then surely fair enough?

- and second if they are invasive then they will breed like crazy anyhow so importation restrictions arnt a concern.

We are talking about *invasive* species here, not your average run of the mill corn snake, and simply by something being able to survive in a EU domestic climate, does not make it invasive!

The report itself said that a "white list" or Australia style system wouldn't be feasible in the EU. So i dont really think anyone should be losing sleep over this.


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## chalky76

Chris Newman said:


> The reason for not making it regional is we have free trade within the EU, so anything in one part of the EU can be moved to another part of the EU without hindrance. So for argument sake if corn snakes were banned in Spain because they could reproduce, but not banned in say Germany, Spanish keepers could go to Hamm and buy corn snakes and bring them back – this is the thinking.



I'm not sure that is the case (unless I've miss read). I am a shotgun and firearms license holder. I can purchase guns, cartrages and bullets here in the Uk but not abroad, likewise someone from another country with different laws cannot purchase guns or ammunition in the UK which is illegal in their own countries. So free trade only as far as the local laws allow as far as I can see.


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## Chris Newman

chalky76 said:


> I'm not sure that is the case (unless I've miss read). I am a shotgun and firearms license holder. I can purchase guns, cartrages and bullets here in the Uk but not abroad, likewise someone from another country with different laws cannot purchase guns or ammunition in the UK which is illegal in their own countries. So free trade only as far as the local laws allow as far as I can see.


I am not familiar with firearms, but in terms of animal there is free trade, you can move reptiles around the EU unhindered, apart from Annex A species which would require a valid A10 Certificate, which then allows movement. The only exception is mammals as here in the UK we currently have a derogation for quarantine.


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## Chris Newman

jack_rep said:


> If you read the actually report cited by the OP, its really not as much a dooms day as is being made out here. Yes this could end up in more red tape for cross border traders based on the recommendation that has been made. But unless your a American bullfrog breeder I dont see how its a concern. The legislation is focused on species that are damaging to either humans or the environment.
> 
> Yes we may lose a couple of species off the import lists, but....
> 
> - if these species risk damaging local ecosystems, then surely fair enough?
> 
> - and second if they are invasive then they will breed like crazy anyhow so importation restrictions arnt a concern.
> 
> We are talking about *invasive* species here, not your average run of the mill corn snake, and simply by something being able to survive in a EU domestic climate, does not make it invasive!
> 
> The report itself said that a "white list" or Australia style system wouldn't be feasible in the EU. So i dont really think anyone should be losing sleep over this.


You are entitled to your views, but I would suggest it would be exceedingly unwise to ignore this threat. This legislation will happen and it has the potential to be devastating to our interests, ignoring it will not help. It would be far more prudent for people to engage with government at the appropriate time and make their views felt. There is nothing to loose and everything to gain!


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## chalky76

Chris Newman said:


> I am not familiar with firearms, but in terms of animal there is free trade, you can move reptiles around the EU unhindered, apart from Annex A species which would require a valid A10 Certificate, which then allows movement. The only exception is mammals as here in the UK we currently have a derogation for quarantine.


But would it not be the case that they would simply change the laws?


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## Chris Newman

chalky76 said:


> But would it not be the case that they would simply change the laws?


Free trade is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome, the other and probably overriding factor is free movement within the EU. So even if it were illegal for someone say living in Spain to go an buy something in say Germany, there are no boarders so effectively no controls this!


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## dady

these lists r what we all want to see .................


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## leecb0

If anyone wants to see what a bunch of ANTI reptile/ animal keepers can do take a look at what trouble the americans are having. This could be used as a basis for the EU proposed Legislation's.

The inside story on the proposed snake ban; U.S. Fish and Wildlife Ignore Science


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## angelgirls29

leecb0 said:


> If anyone wants to see what a bunch of ANTI reptile/ animal keepers can do take a look at what trouble the americans are having. This could be used as a basis for the EU proposed Legislation's.
> 
> The inside story on the proposed snake ban; U.S. Fish and Wildlife Ignore Science


Basically, the anti's can say what they like, produce non-peer reviewed papers and treat them as fact.
And governments will listen to their biased (and likely untruthful) opinion. :whistling2:


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## leecb0

angelgirls29 said:


> Basically, the anti's can say what they like, produce non-peer reviewed papers and treat them as fact.
> And governments will listen to their biased (and likely untruthful) opinion. :whistling2:


The point is it doesnt matter what people on here or in the hobby think. The US market eclips's ours by some margin and is a sizable piece of the commerce, but if the right or the wrong people try to back the bill then it wont matter what the truth is or the real scientific facts are.
Just like the guys who have said it couldnt happen here as the trade is too big etc etc, fact is if this does go through in the States the EU could use it as a presidence, and if the wrong people vote for it it will come in weather we like it or not.


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## angelgirls29

Sorry, I guess I didn't say that right :lol2:

I agree that we must do something because if the anti's produce "scientific" papers people will listen to them even if they aren't based on fact...
Whereas we would (more than likely) know the proper science but won't be listened to unless we get our arguement "in first" and listened to.

I agree that we need luck and the right people in the right places at the right time.


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## mambo86

Even though I’m still in a way a beginner with the interest of reptile keeping with 3 year experience. I just can not believe that the EU yet again is sticking its nose into our lives by attacking our interests. Maybe due to a few miss haps and differently with those who lack the understanding with our fasciation with these animals? This is one example of the people that gets on my wick, 
Quote from stu
“When i first started keeping snakes seriously i was talking to someone from work about my snakes and a woman in the office overheard.
She worked voluntarily for the RSPCA doing checks on homes suitable for rehousing dogs and cats.
I was totally shocked at her complete and utter hatred of reptiles being kept as pets. She launched into an attack on how cruel it was,that i faced almost certain death from salmonella, my snakes (at the time i had a corn and a BCI) would without doubt kill me, my neighbours cats and every dog in the neighbourhood. That my snakes had been evilly taken from the wild and countless other popular myths and misconceptions.
As i tried to reply she just walked off, ever since then she has been frosty with me at best.” 

Along with some stories that I think is plain urban myth like with the vet telling an owner of a large constrictor that the reason why her snake was laying along side her was it was weighing up whether to eat her. With seeing through a thermal imaging camera of how a snake gains its heat. I’ve came to a conclusion that this story is a load of cobblers and people just fear something because they don’t understand. 
With this EU thing, yes they maybe are looking out for the environment and the thought of a non-native species getting out and disrupting the ecosystem. Even though an ordinary house cat can do more damage in the area it lives in. It just seems like with most politicians these days to stroke everyone with the same brush as it’s the easy of avoiding a risk and only listen to the people that complaint the most than trust of the devoted keeper or breeder.
As with these so called animal lovers, if cats or small dogs fall victim of being eaten. Maybe being a bit cynical but as I see it as a case of sh*t happens and if they wonder into a place were a large snake or lizard lives then they will be seen as a pray item. When they say it’s cruel of keeping exotics, as long they don’t fall into the hands of someone that treats them as a five minute wonderer and into the hands of those that are devoted care for them like us. When they say its cruel taking them out of the wild to be kept as pets. That’s why we have breeders and I’ve read somewhere, if more people breed their exotic animals then it will lessen the chance of these animals being brought from their homelands. With royal pythons for example, their numbers are decreasing in the wild due to the pet trade, then this proves this statement right and if there’s a chance we maybe be able to send some back for conservation of these species. 
We all know the temptation to take in an animal that’s wild caught as there are some that look amazing. I for one even with the temptation, won’t get an exotic if its wild caught not just for the reason of the animals hardship but the chance that it wont do well in my care or the chance a disease or parasites infecting my ready established collection.

On a whole, us keepers need to unite and convince everyone that we do our very best to keep our animals welfare to the highest standard and minimise the risks of any accidents to protect our hobby. If a hunter can keeps his collection of guns and traps or let a sky diver throwing their selves out of a plane as a hobby and interest. Then why can’t we keep our wonderful exotic creatures and maybe do some good some day.

Cheers for bringing this to our attention Chris and good work m8.


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## Geomyda

*EU Invasive Alien Species strategy development*

I attended the EU Invasive species Strategy development meeting held at the DEFRA HQ in Westminster.
Split into two sections, during the day, it represented a consultation with "Stakeholders" and covered the progress of three working groups whom are currently charged with providing recommendations to the department. Their time table, is now to complete these with published recommendations, during May and June 2011.
From what I heard, and witnessed, the UK pet keeping fraternity is well represented and along with Chris Newman, we have strong advocates in the form of Keith Davenport from Oata, and Jim Collins, who works alongside Chris from REPTA. Their input at the meeting, and from what I understand in some of the three working groups as well is both forceful and cogent.
To me, as an observer at the meeting, I would comment on the following: 
Each of the three working parties, have been given a brief covering five separate headings. Each working group, was tasked with considering as they develop their thoughts on the strategy document.
As I took notes, these seemed to have a consistent order of priority:
1. Priority species.
2. Priority pathways.
3. Risk analysis.
4. Financing.
5. Public awareness and communication.

My observation;
It occurs that whilst all components are important, with the first three representing the "Muscle" of the report. The last two are, I would say the most important in terms of presenting to the EU commission.
1. Financing; as they talked about chronology, maybe it should be considered that post 2008, is a new epoch? In the world economy, the constraints of living in a world "Anno Lehman", (AL). With a number of the EU member states in what to many consider, as a financial bankruptcy, and most if not all of the rest facing austerity cuts on an unprecedented scale. In this new financial epoch funding of any directives/ initiatives would I suspect, face significant hurdles and to be justified might require some cost benefits to the member states?
2. Public awareness and communication: Here in the UK, whilst we obviously have many examples of the Invasive species, and their relative impact on the environment. Indeed, if we go back to the dawn of modern Man and the move they had into agriculture, we see many examples of the impact of non native species; Chalk downland, Breckland, are two classic examples.
We have also had notable success, in eradication programmes, with Coypu, (Myocaster coypus) and to some extent even the recent work on the North American Mink, (Neovision vision). At the same time, the prevention of pest species such as the Colorado Beetle,(Leptinotarsa decemlineata) which in the last century, was I think very successfully kept from our shores by a public awareness campaign. I would imagine, that EU bureaucrats, and the voters that keep them in office, might be more persuaded with a strong emphasis on EU directives if the Public awareness and communication element led the debate?
From what I saw yesterday, I am happy that in the UK we are represented with credible an active advocates. However, one has to worry, that across much of the rest of the EU, perhaps other member states, the interest of the hobby pet keeper are not so well represented and consequences of decisions reached by them may well undermine the really good work being carried out by Chris, Keith & Jim?


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## MrsRaven

I was very concerned at this report, and as I believe in being pro-active rather than reactive I emailed our local MP, who I have known for many years and is very helpful, to get the facts. Her policy case-worker passed my email on to our Euro MP. For what it's worth this is the reply I got. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent (i.e. Me!) 


*From:* Graham Watson MEP (Casework4) [mailto:[email protected]] 
*Sent:* 12 April 2011 12:03
*To:* RYDER, Tom
*Subject:* Animal Welfare{Our Ref:GW/JG/Munt001[6]}



Dear Tom,



Thank you for your email regarding a query by xxxxx xxxxx and proposed EU legislation on reptiles. I apologise for not replying sooner as I was on holiday last week.



After looking into the link provided and a number of relevant written questions to the European Commission, there are currently no plans to introduce legislation on banning the keeping of exotic species. The link refers to a number of studies and reports by the Commission regarding the trade of such animals.



In responding to a parliamentary question on the subject in August last year, the Commission noted that whilst they can continue to monitor and report on the welfare of exotic animals in the relation to trade, only member states have the authority to legislate and monitor the keeping of exotic animals as pets. You can view the question and answer in its entirety via, Written question - Trade in exotic animals kept as pets - E-6287/2010.



I hope you find this information useful. If the constituent in question, or any other concerned constituent of Tessa and Graham's have any further issues, Graham will be happy to deal with their concerns. They should either email [email protected] or write to: Bagehot's Foundry, Beard's Yard, Langport, TA10 9PS.



Regards,



Jon Gleeson

*Press, Campaign and Research Assistant*
*The Office of Graham Watson MEP*
Liberal Democrat Member of the European Parliament for South West England and Gibraltar
[email protected]
01458 252265
www.grahamwatsonmep.org

Anybody who is concerrned should also email their Euro-MP with their thoughts on this. Even if there are currently no plans to ban the keeping of exotice, it does no harm to let them know how we feel.


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## Chris Newman

Dear all,

On Friday we had a full day meeting in London being briefed on the EU Alien Invasive Species Strategy with Niall Moore, Secretary to the GB Non Native Secretariat, and Huw Thomas, Defra head of Non-native Species Policy. 

I am not going to go into huge detail with everything being discussed as much to be very concise. I will go with some of the headlines. Huw opened with a brief appraisal of what is called Non-native Species in the UK and Invasive Alien Species in the EU – would be helpful if they could unify the term!

According to the Daisy database: DAISIE - Home there are some 11,000 known invasive alien species in the EU of which 15% are damaging - costing 12.7 billion Euros annually.

In the UK we have 2,300 known species, of which 10% are harmful – costing the UK economy 2 billion £. The GB Non Native Secretariat produce Risk Assessments for the most serious threats, and this is very worth while looking at: https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?sectionid=51

Interestingly some of the risk assessments that have been completed have in fact been more favourable to us than anticipated. For example at one stage Italian crested newts were thought to be a ‘serious’ problem and where suggested for trade bands and even prohibition by private keepers, and yet the risk assessment recently published is much more favourable. It was mentioned at the meeting that to complete risk assessment for all know species in the UK would take 147 years!!!- that is one of the major issues.

Under the EU Invasive Alien Species Strategy three Working Groups have been formed, only two are of concern at the moment. Working Group 1 – Prevention is the key group from our perspective. Interestingly the scoping document barely mentions imports, referring mainly to “intentional release”. However, the current draft of the Working Groups document has substantial reference to imports, according to our hosts for the day. Also as it stands the Working Groups current draft does not include all options available as required, i.e. there is no mention of Black List only approaches – which is very worrying. 

About 22 stake holders attended the meeting, by far the majority from our side of the fence, from the antis we had Plant Life and the RSPCA. It certainly appeared to me that our government is not supportive of a White List approach, unfortunately only the French are in open agreement with this. Germany which is key has not declared its hand yet and we could elicit from our hosts for the day if they had any feeling for how Germany might go. If UK, France and Germany opposed aWhite List approach I think we would be very encourage for a positive outcome.

Here is a link to the EU website where all the publically available documents in relation to EU Invasive Alien Species Strategy can be found: CIRCA - communication & Information Resource Centre Administrator This includes a list of members of each working group – including member state official representatives.

This is clearly and issue that is going to have a huge impact on activities of both keepers and industry. Here in the UK we have substantial input with government as direct stakeholders. I will keep you all fully informed of further developments as and when they are available.

Regards,
Chris


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## angelgirls29

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/672423-all-keepers-please-read-very-6.html#post8502292


Dear Fellow Herpetologists,

Is this the biggest threat ever?

The European Commission (in the form of DG Environment) is currently developing an “Invasive Alien Species strategy” [IAS] which will be transposed into an EU Directive and implemented across all 27 Member States. Invasive Alien Species (IAS), or Invasive Non-native Species (INNS) as they are better known as in the UK, can clearly pose a threat to the environment, biodiversity and economy, making this a serious issue. There are, however, grave concerns that the Invasive Alien Species Strategy could easily become hijacked to form an Animal Rights Charter, used to restrict the keeping of animals in captivity, a purpose for which it was not originally intended.

The UK government have adopted an open and transparent consultation process with stakeholders, but this appears to be lacking across the rest of the EU. The Commission’s consultation process has been somewhat more selective and mainly taking the form of establishing working groups involving Member States and a few interest groups. We fear that the Commission might not take due account of the economic value of the pet industry to the EU purse (some €30+ billion per annum with net tax revenue of some €12+ billion / annum). Pet ownership is enjoyed by an estimated 67% of households across the EU and undue restrictions on keeping / trade could, therefore, have significant implications.

The facts: IAS are a significant threat to the biodiversity and according to the DAISIE database DAISIE - Home the following apply: 

•	There are more than 11,000 alien species in the EU.
•	Around.15% of these are considered damaging to biodiversity. 
•	A similar proportion are economically damaging.
•	EEA work shows an increasing trend of alien species introductions.
•	IAS costing Europe at least €12.7 billion / annum.
•	Albino king snakes, for example, have been found (and seem to be breeding) in the Canaries.

Clearly the issues are very important but this must be balanced against the devastating effects, socially and economically, of blanket banning keeping pet animals. There are also Human Rights issues as well as animal welfare implications if large numbers of pet keepers are effectively criminalised. A few of the issues which need to be considered are:

•	Commonly kept species, such as North American Colubrids, could potentially become established and would be on the “hit list” of banned species. 
•	Keeping reptiles and amphibians (and many other pets) would no longer be viable.
•	Animal keepers would be driven “underground”, with welfare implications, e.g. inability to access veterinary care. 
•	Forced destruction of animals already in captivity could be implemented.

The Major Issues: there are many issues and threats implicit in the development of the IAS strategy, but three are of paramount importance:-

•	White versus Black Lists 
•	One list or many covering import, trade and possession
•	EU-wide, country-by-country or Bio-geographic Region

White list v black: A white list is a positive list of species permitted to be kept and a black list is a negative list of species prohibited. The EU currently maintains a black list of species prohibited from importations, including species such as American bull frogs Lithobates catesbeianus and red-eared terrapins Trachemys scripta elegans. A black list is the most sensible and practical way forward in order that species that are proven to be invasive or damaging to the environment may be restricted. A number of countries, plus protectionist NGO’s are pushing for a white list approach which would be devastating for our interests as each and every species would need to be risk assessed and would be banned until that process had been undertaken. The process would be prohibitively expensive and extremely time consuming. The GB Non-native Species Secretariat conceded that to carry out adequate risk assessments for all of the species of ‘possible’ concern to the UK would take some 150 years! The position of the European Commission has yet to be declared.

One list or many? A white or black list could be universal to importation, trade and possession, or if there could be separate lists for each category. A black list of species that are known to be problematic (for example red-eared terrapins) are currently banned from importation but possession remains lawful. If a single-list approach was adopted owners in current possession of such species would be criminalised or animals destroyed.

Within the EU there are many Bio-geographic Regions [see below] and a species that may pose a threat in one country may not be problematic in another. Red-eared terrapins, for example, are able to reproduce in the wild in the Mediterranean, but cannot in the UK or any other northern Member States. 

EU-wide, country-by-country, according to Biogeographic Region or one size fits all? Bio-geographical variation within the EU is immense, with climates from sub-arctic to sub-tropical and, with the inclusion of overseas territories such as French Guyana and Reunion; the picture is even more complex. It is not reasonable to prohibit the keeping of a species in one country where it cannot survive in the wild simply because it could in another Bio-geographic region. Common sense could be applies, but a more cavalier attitude appears to be prevailing, with the apparent adoption of a ‘one-size-fits-all’ strategy being preferred by a significant number of Member States.

Time scale: Time is short as the Commission has indicated that it wishes to have a proposed Directive in place by the end of 2012.

What can UK animal keepers do? The UK government is seeking to limit the number of species prohibited only to those that pose the most serious threat and is opposing blanket bans and other overtly restrictive measures, but is only one of 27 Member States, of which only France and Belgium have adopted a similar strategy so far. The German Government, a key Member State, has yet to declare and need to support this stance. Right now, there is little that keepers / traders can do in the UK but our European colleagues need to understand the threat. An EU-wide pro-pet lobby is needed NOW in order to save our hobby & trade, so please circulate this information as widely as possible in order to muster support.

Yours sincerely,

Chris Newman

Chairman Federation of British Herpetologists 
Email: [email protected]



Further information:

1. EU Commission website - Invasive Alien Species
European Commission - Environment - Nature & Biodiversity

2. GB non-native species information portal - Working towards an EU strategy
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/non...cfm?pageid=211

3. GB non-native species information portal - Risk assessment
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/non...m?sectionid=51

4. Developing an EU Framework for Invasive Alien Species - Discussion papers
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/natu...sion_paper.pdf

5. Information and background documents EU policy on Invasive Species Strategy CIRCA - Communication & Information Resource Centre Administrator


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## Geomyda

With events in Nottingham yesterday, to some, it may not seem a good day to put a letter like this out. However, having attended the FBH Conference last Saturday, I very well know that there is no time to hold back on its publication. What Reptile and Amphibian hobbyists in the UK need to realise, is that currently, it is reported that the German Government has yet to make a decision on the recommendations to go into the proposed EU directive. If they side with the UK and France, then it might be possible to get the EU to opt for the less draconian "Black list".
However, if they side with the EU states such as Poland, Greece, Spain etc then the "White list" argument will have won. The White list option, has potentially dire consequences for the hobby and all the attendant protocols would be both expensive and grossly impractical. Paradoxically, The German hobby have potentially more to loose as it is they that lead much of Europe in the diversity of species husbanded in captivity.
What the letter is really trying to encourage, is a greater awareness of the issue and in the short term: "NOW" try and get UK hobbyists to liaise with their German colleagues/suppliers, who in turn need to lobby their governnment for a similar stance to France and the UK. A tall order????:2thumb:
Whilst at this stage it seems both Italy and Spanish Government has declared a "White list" preference. It would help, if Hobbyists in these countries where Herp keeping is also popular might also kick up a strong lobby in support of their cause!:notworthy:


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## barbetuk

In view of the attacks on the various livestock hobbies in both UK and Europe - highlighted by Chris Newman, there is a course of action which every keeper (whether they keep reptiles, birds or animals) can do to help.

CONTACT YOUR MEP via the following link :
Your MEPs | European Parliament Information Office in the United Kingdom

seding a copy of Chris Newman's "open letter" requesting that the MEP question the process and reminding the MEP of the sheer volume of business generated by the Pet Trade, the amount of Tax generated by the Pet Trade and the fact that some 67% of EU households keep pets of one sort or another.

CONTACT YOUR MP via the following link :
Lists of MPs - UK Parliament

sending a copy of Chris Newman's "Open Letter" and requesting the MP to contact DEFRA and make your views known.

These actions are something that EVERY keeper can do - it only takes a few minutes on the computer! 

GIVE CHRIS NEWMAN SOME PRACTICAL SUPPORT AND BACKING AND HELP SAVE OUR HOBBIES.


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## carpy

it is also ridiculous to implement an EU wide piece of legislation when quite clearly the issue is area specific. as aforementioned many invasive herps in the UK are from areas within the EU, so surely they would have to be put on the list. 

Too many grey areas, and once again an attempt to tackle multiple area specific issues with one piece of legislation


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## carpy

I also think it is exceptionally hypocritical of governments to make it seem as though they have biodiversity in their best interests when across the board many local councils couldn't give a monkeys about it.

My local council is planning to knock down Hut 8 on the island farm WW2 POW camp, the last remaining hut and the site of the biggest outbreak of axis troops in the UK in the second world war. this in itself would indicate it deserves to be restored and protected, but on top of that it is also one of very few nesting areas for many bats including as i understand both species of horseshoe bats. 

despite that they still plan to knock it down


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## slippery42

carpy said:


> I also think it is exceptionally hypocritical of governments to make it seem as though they have biodiversity in their best interests when across the board many local councils couldn't give a monkeys about it.
> 
> My local council is planning to knock down Hut 8 on the island farm WW2 POW camp, the last remaining hut and the site of the biggest outbreak of axis troops in the UK in the second world war. this in itself would indicate it deserves to be restored and protected, but on top of that it is also one of very few nesting areas for many bats including as i understand both species of horseshoe bats.
> 
> despite that they still plan to knock it down


I doubt they will be allowed to knock it down if it is a roost for horseshoe bats (either species) as these are European Protected Species and require a licence for ANY works which may disturb them.

Licences to destroy a roost of either species are rarely if ever issued!

That is the situation from the perspective of a fully licenced bat worker (me) and holder of numerous EPSL's 

Despite what you have stated local councils have a legal resposability to ensure the all necessary surveys are carried out prior to any planning application and development as this comes under PPS9.

If you have any concern you should raise this with the planning department of the council involved, if they get it wrong they become legally responsible.


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## carpy

slippery42 said:


> I doubt they will be allowed to knock it down if it is a roost for horseshoe bats (either species) as these are European Protected Species and require a licence for ANY works which may disturb them.
> 
> Licences to destroy a roost of either species are rarely if ever issued!
> 
> That is the situation from the perspective of a fully licenced bat worker (me) and holder of numerous EPSL's
> 
> Despite what you have stated local councils have a legal resposability to ensure the all necessary surveys are carried out prior to any planning application and development as this comes under PPS9.
> 
> If you have any concern you should raise this with the planning department of the council involved, if they get it wrong they become legally responsible.


I know, which is why i have come to the conclusion that the government and councils are more crooked than i thought. I will dig into it deeper, but i am under the impression the building will get the drop next year


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## Spikebrit

barbetuk said:


> In view of the attacks on the various livestock hobbies in both UK and Europe - highlighted by Chris Newman, there is a course of action which every keeper (whether they keep reptiles, birds or animals) can do to help.
> 
> CONTACT YOUR MEP via the following link :
> Your MEPs | European Parliament Information Office in the United Kingdom
> 
> seding a copy of Chris Newman's "open letter" requesting that the MEP question the process and reminding the MEP of the sheer volume of business generated by the Pet Trade, the amount of Tax generated by the Pet Trade and the fact that some 67% of EU households keep pets of one sort or another.
> 
> CONTACT YOUR MP via the following link :
> Lists of MPs - UK Parliament
> 
> sending a copy of Chris Newman's "Open Letter" and requesting the MP to contact DEFRA and make your views known.
> 
> These actions are something that EVERY keeper can do - it only takes a few minutes on the computer!
> 
> GIVE CHRIS NEWMAN SOME PRACTICAL SUPPORT AND BACKING AND HELP SAVE OUR HOBBIES.



I am happy to write ot my local MP about this, but where is the open letter. When the threads were merged it appears to have gone walkies. 

Jay


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## kain

On saturday Chris Newman gave his talk on this, from what i gathered the problem now isnt us kicking up a fuss about this its getting breeders and keepers in other EU countries to kick up a fuss. 

So get emailing your pen pals


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## xXxLynnxXx

Do we have anymore further info regarding this matter Chris ? 

Lynn


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## Chris Newman

xXxLynnxXx said:


> Do we have anymore further info regarding this matter Chris ?
> 
> Lynn


There are some developments, quite positive developments. I will try and post an update here with links to some documents the Commission are about to publish – so watch this space.


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## punky_jen

bump, just wondering if there are any updates yet?


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## Chris Newman

The final draft of the reports from the Working Groups are now available publically, link here: http://circa.europa.eu/Public/irc/env/ias/library?l=/general_information/working_prevention/final_working_groups&vm=detailed&sb=Title

The report which is of most interest to keepers if from:- Working Group , 1 Prevention - Priority species and habitats including introduction, release and holding of alien species. [first on the list]

The publication of this report has been delayed due to some member of the Working Group refusing to sign off the document as a fair reflection of the WG findings.


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## punky_jen

Chris Newman said:


> The final draft of the reports from the Working Groups are now available publically, link here: http://circa.europa.eu/Public/irc/env/ias/library?l=/general_information/working_prevention/final_working_groups&vm=detailed&sb=Title
> 
> The report which is of most interest to keepers if from:- Working Group , 1 Prevention - Priority species and habitats including introduction, release and holding of alien species. [first on the list]
> 
> The publication of this report has been delayed due to some member of the Working Group refusing to sign off the document as a fair reflection of the WG findings.


Thanks Chris.


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## Chris Newman

punky_jen said:


> Thanks Chris.


As out American brethren would say – enjoy!!!!!!!!!!


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## fardilis

hiya
surely if they banned the herps that *could* be a threat ,ppl will be forced to get rid of them and think that if they can live in uk country-side then to release them.

like with dwa, only ppl will think they can live in the uk easilly as that why there being banned (should they be banned).


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## lizamphid1

they banned fox hunting, but they still do it, hare courseing they still do it,
driving while banned , they still do it
If they bring in this crazy rule, people will still do it. it will just get pushed 'underground',. and will cause a bigger problem


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