# What an idiot. Handling a Sicarius Hahni!?!?!?!



## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

Caught this on another forum. If it's been posted already, forgive me. But I can not understand the minds of these people. Why are you going to handle a spider that will kill you if it bite?!?!?!?!?!?!










I wouldn't dream of handling mine. Scares the heck out of me any time I need to get close to it.

Ignoring the dangers of a deadly spider is asking for trouble.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

it's his choice.
i speak to people who handle some of the most venomous scorpions.. its a matter of respect
theres only been one death from a bite, they can cause necrosis however


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

One confirmed death, I don't think it's certain death, but yeah like you say there is a risk. The owner/finders choice, people free handle hot snakes, not recommended but ah well


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

spinnin_tom said:


> it's his choice.
> i speak to people who handle some of the most venomous scorpions.. its a matter of respect
> theres only been one death from a bite, they can cause necrosis however


Beat me lol


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> it's his choice.
> i speak to people who handle some of the most venomous scorpions.. its a matter of respect


Respect? If you mean respect his choice, I do. It's just my opinion that this is stupid.

The handler is basically putting all faith and trust that this spider is not going to bite. Me? I won't take that risk.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

to be fair, sicarius are not known for unprovoked bites- & it's hard to provoke them to begin with.


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

Nice looking spider.

According to wikipedia bites by Sicarius to humans are uncommon; there are no proven cases and only two suspected cases where the culprit was never identified but also there has only been 1 human death accredited to this species (which is a bit confusing)

They are very lethal to rabbits it seems . . .I'm just glad that I'm not a bunny :lol2:


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

cascadingstylez said:


> Respect? If you mean respect his choice, I do. It's just my opinion that this is stupid.
> 
> The handler is basically putting all faith and trust that this spider is not going to bite. Me? I won't take that risk.


no, as in if he respects the spider and understands the potential, yeah ?



wilkinss77 said:


> to be fair, sicarius are not known for unprovoked bites- & it's hard to provoke them to begin with.


there you go, are these dwa ?


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

Yeah not got a reputation for being aggressive have they?


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

malky201 said:


> Yeah not got a reputation for being aggressive have they?



a bit like a lot of spiders, really


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> no, as in if he respects the spider and understands the potential, yeah ?


Imo, no amount of respect is going to stop it biting you if it wants to.



spinnin_tom said:


> there you go, are these dwa ?


No.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

cascadingstylez said:


> Imo, no amount of respect is going to stop it biting you if it wants to.
> 
> no, mean he respects the potential to do some damage, he understands that they are potentially dangerous : victory:
> 
> No.


does anybody in the uk sell them?


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

They aint DWA I dont think no


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## cascadingstylez (Aug 31, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> does anybody in the uk sell them?


There was a breeder in Yorkshire where my friend got his, but the breeder no longer breeds them. Only other place is Germany to my knowledge. There are other places, just got to find them.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

malky201 said:


> They aint DWA I dont think no


yet another :censor: up by defra.
potentially dangerous centipedes aren't, but bark scorpions are.
potentially dangerous spiders aren't... lots of pointless things are


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

Lets all get them, and first to get bitten must wear a shirt saying I am an rfuk numpty, plus I love jodi marshes new body


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

cascadingstylez said:


> There was a breeder in Yorkshire where my friend got his, but the breeder no longer breeds them. Only other place is Germany to my knowledge. There are other places, just got to find them.


cool, thanks
i might look into that in the future

malky- surely thats incentive to get bit ?
i'm well interested in one of these though, they look neat


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

no they aren't on DWA, and yes, handling one could be construed as on the silly side.

just because they aren't a very aggresive sp. doesnt take anything away from the fact they have a VERY nasty bite, so handling one is like juggling with loaded 9mm pistols, the odds are that unless you pull a trigger on one of them you arent going to get shot....but would you take the risk?


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

Up to the individual imo. If they want to risk it, its up to them, not that it is that much of a risk as you don't really hear of them, biting ??
Some people see it as a trophy thing, being 'hard' for doing this, others see it as something they just want to do i suppose. Each to thier own and all that


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> no they aren't on DWA, and yes, handling one could be construed as on the silly side.
> 
> just because they aren't a very aggresive sp. doesnt take anything away from the fact they have a VERY nasty bite, so handling one is like juggling with loaded 9mm pistols, the odds are that unless you pull a trigger on one of them you arent going to get shot....but would you take the risk?


i do that all the time.

naah, but some people like handling them, all the best i say
it's their choice, if they get bitten, it's their fault.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

anyway, there is a document here that describes the envenomation effects of Sicarius

http://www.indiana.edu/~psychag/cam/interview/long_lost_manuscript.pdf

i'd rather be bitten by a Stromatopelma to be honest :gasp:


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

Nasty bite yeah I bet they do, and non aggressive, I get what your saying steve, but people are still gonna handle any spider they want, chile's to black widows, and in between I bet there are loads of people who regularly handle pokies and H.macs but don't publicice(sp?) it.............

Sorry not sure what my point was there.....had a few beers


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

malky201 said:


> publicice(sp?)


Pubic lice?
i don't think spiders get that


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

Anyway like I said, had a few beers, so off to get my two P.murinus, my H.mac and my H.lividum and go for a topless handling session


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

malky201 said:


> Anyway like I said, had a few beers, so off to get my two P.murinus, my H.mac and my H.lividum and go for a topless handling session



good for you mate..
i think mate at least, maybe you're a girl.. topless handling :mf_dribble:


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

malky201 said:


> Anyway like I said, had a few beers, so off to get my two P.murinus, my H.mac and my H.lividum and go for a topless handling session


I have had a Straight horned baboon in my bra, am i doing it right ???:whistling2:


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

I'm not a girl, but I do breastfeed my Ts


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

malky201 said:


> I'm not a girl, but I do breastfeed my Ts


Breast is best


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

TEENY said:


> I have had a Straight horned baboon in my bra, am i doing it right ???:whistling2:


This is RFUK & you should know the rules by now


Pics or it didn't happen :lol2:


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> anyway, there is a document here that describes the envenomation effects of Sicarius
> 
> http://www.indiana.edu/~psychag/cam/interview/long_lost_manuscript.pdf
> 
> i'd rather be bitten by a Stromatopelma to be honest :gasp:


Good read, good if not a little scary :lol2:



spinnin_tom said:


> Pubic lice?
> i don't think spiders get that


Bwhahaha :lol2:


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

Public lice are actually very social lice, and a lot of my Ts have close friends who are of this particular species


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## Spiderstock (May 29, 2011)

Nothing is proven where these beautiful ancient spiders are concerned. 

My personal feeling is that it's about time they got looked into and someone shed some light on the potency of the venom and end the arguments over the damage these will do. Sadly i feel it will be an idiot like the one in the picture that will show the world what they are capable of.

There seems to be a growing trend in handling potentially dangerous inverts over the past few years, which is worrying. I've seen pictures of so called experts holding Phoneutria sp. If they knew anything about these spiders really they wouldn't ever hold one.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Least treatable venom: Sicarius and Loxosceles
Most tissue damage: Sicarius hahni

Highest number of organs affected by venom: Sicarius hahni (skin, fat, muscle, blood, heart, liver, kidneys, lungs, brain, arteries/ veins/ capillaries, and intestines in particular, although it affects any tissue or organ which requires blood circulation)
Highest observed fatality rate WITH treatment: Loxosceles laeta, gaucho, intermedia ( 1.5% or 1 in 67 ) [S. hahni has the same toxic compound as Loxosceles: Sphingomyelinase-D, only in much, much greater abundance. Anecdotal reports place Sicarius' fatality rate at circa 50%. The fatality rate of Sicarius is essentially unobserved due to low frequency of bites].
Lowest man-to-spider contact frequency: Sicarius spp.

To my mind, if you can't think of a good reason to handle such a dangerous spider then why do so? Its unnecessary and achieves little.


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

Kamike said:


> This is RFUK & you should know the rules by now
> 
> 
> Pics or it didn't happen :lol2:


You should know baboons well enough to know that if you have one in your bra, a camera is the last thing you think about lol


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## leecheroflife (Oct 20, 2011)

It kinda worries me when I see photos like that. I respect the dudes choice, its his preferance but if he were to get hurt there would be a public onslaught against arachnid keepers.

Beautiful spider though. I've seen videos of them in action and they can move when they want to!


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

malky201 said:


> Nasty bite yeah I bet they do, and non aggressive, I get what your saying steve, but people are still gonna handle any spider they want, chile's to black widows, and in between I bet there are loads of people who regularly handle pokies and H.macs but don't publicice(sp?) it.............


there are- there are pics of people with pokies sitting on their faces- & a few who claim to regularly handle OBT's, & that they've never been bitten!:gasp:


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## splottlands (Jul 3, 2009)

going back to the picture we should not criticise the chap in the background of the photograph mainly because from the photo we cannot tell who's arm it actually is...


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

It's how a bite will effect us all, not just the person handling. The whole exotic pet keeping hobby is fragile at best and there's numerous people in positions of power that would love to just blanket ban exotic pet keeping and trade.

I fear it'll just take 1 fatality and they'll be a knee jerk reaction and a lot of our pets will end up on the DWA.


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## Stelios (Aug 28, 2009)

TEENY said:


> I have had a Straight horned baboon in my bra, am i doing it right ???:whistling2:


Was it just a gay babboon but after the encounter with your breasticles it came out a straight and with the horn?:gasp:


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Stelios said:


> Was it just a gay babboon but after the encounter with your breasticles it came out a straight and with the horn?:gasp:


:lol:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Quite right Selina. The reason so many species are not covered by DWA, DEFRA etc is because they only recently entered the hobby or the potential dangers of them are not known.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Spiderstock said:


> Nothing is proven where these beautiful ancient spiders are concerned.


how do you come to that conclusion?
Already there is a paper linked within this thread, but there are other papers if you want to pay for them that study the venom of Sicarius sp.


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## lucozade3000 (Aug 16, 2008)

Poxicator has the right info.
Very idiotic thing to do, this could seriously damage the hobby in the case of an accident.
On the other hand, these spiders are quite reluctant to bite (but they will eventually) and rather run away than face a fight.

This spider cytotoxic venom has the worst overall effect on a human body. It will affect every single organ and tissue that require blood irrigation.
The tissue damage is massive and irreversible.
Along with the Loxosceles, the Sicarius bite is the least treatable. There is no existing antivenom so basically, you are good as dead and it can take a while.
I read somewhere that the only VERY SLIM chance you have to survive a bite is to cut off the affected limb right away. 
Bite on the finger? cut the hand. That's why i always carry a rocket launcher with me at feeding time. 

The bite reports are quasi non existent and badly documented due to the rarity of the bite and location of these spiders.

-J


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## callum b (Sep 8, 2008)

I can't begin to explain how stupid that man is. Poxicator and Lucozade have already explained it really well anyway.

I don't understand how anyone can respect him for holding the spider!?!?! It's just plain daft and if he one day gets bitten it's not him thats going to be running about trying to save his arm or even life. It'll be doctors and nurses, friends and family who could be putting their time and effort into something more important than some spoon who thought it'd be 'cool' to handle Sicarius hahni. Then as already mentioned, there would be all the repucussions from it that could potentially destroy our beloved hobby. It's just a bloody joke, there is absolutely no respect there, just total disrespect of the potential danger of the spider.


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## malky201 (Sep 16, 2006)

Man, I was drunk last night, I thought the spider was on his face


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

some idiot needs to die to set an example, carry on stupid people carry on!


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

bulkupman said:


> some idiot needs to die to set an example, carry on stupid people carry on!


But that won't help the hobby at all, all they will do is get all emotional about people keeping exotic pets, and either try to ban us or make most spp DWA.

I personally think stupid people should just be shot on sight :lol2:


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

nah, old style

like pirates surposely do? lock them in a chest and fill it up with scorpions through a hatch door!

sweet!

:2thumb:

but yeah if someone does die and papers or the right people get involved it will cause a problem especailly if the law changed.

like all things, nothing gets changed until the dust gets un settled.


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## RandomDan (Oct 11, 2009)

Biggys said:


> But that won't help the hobby at all, all they will do is get all emotional about people keeping exotic pets, and either try to ban us or make most spp DWA.
> 
> I personally think stupid people should just be shot on sight :lol2:


Thats what traffic is for!


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## splottlands (Jul 3, 2009)

This man is just waiting to be given a Darwin Award..


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

bulkupman said:


> nah, old style
> 
> like pirates surposely do? lock them in a chest and fill it up with scorpions through a hatch door!
> 
> ...


there would be better ways to kill the stupid people :2thumb:

Put them in a perspex room and let them try and run out till they die :lol2:


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

and i will say, why does the minority ruin it all for the majority, this applies to everything.

if they do bans etc, its not going to stop me...infact makes it even more exciting and naughty :mf_dribble:

maybe i should get my s.s.s pede to bite me 10 times around my neck and start off the ban, tho i would die but i be like brad pit, i be a legend :lol2:

nah my life worth living, not going to let it go for a foolish act of showing off an extremely dangerous species of spider.


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## RandomDan (Oct 11, 2009)

bulkupman said:


> and i will say, why does the minority ruin it all for the majority, this applies to everything.
> 
> if they do bans etc, its not going to stop me...infact makes it even more exciting and naughty :mf_dribble:
> 
> ...


No i think things that kill people should be banned, and everything that looks like it might.
First cars and planes i think..


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

bulkupman said:


> and i will say, why does the minority ruin it all for the majority, this applies to everything.
> 
> if they do bans etc, its not going to stop me...infact makes it even more exciting and naughty :mf_dribble:
> 
> ...


Yup is abit foolish tbh mate :|


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Yet more evidence that hobbyists are the biggest danger to 'the hobby'.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

RandomDan said:


> No i think things that kill people should be banned, and everything that looks like it might.
> First cars and planes i think..


 
unfortunately the world doesnt work like that, a good one to debate is cars and especially motorbike that goes 180mph on stock.

the human gets the lash because we are in control of our own actions and we are responsible.

ultimately we cant be trusted so this is why laws/bans, restrictions.

keeps us controlled, if you cant tame it, then we cant have it.

not that i agree with any of above, its for our own protection.


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## RandomDan (Oct 11, 2009)

bulkupman said:


> unfortunately the world doesnt work like that, a good one to debate is cars and especially motorbike that goes 180mph on stock.
> 
> the human gets the lash because we are in control of our own actions and we are responsible.
> 
> ...


True guess i wasnt thinking of it like that.
But you should look at it like this, the person in the car that has the potential to be killed they could also hit a bus full of people!


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## RandomDan (Oct 11, 2009)

Ill also add that i dont want these things to be banned, I just think its silly the reason why they do get banned.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

splottlands said:


> This man is just waiting to be given a Darwin Award..


Beat me to it!

It's basically Russian Roulette with a spider isn't it. Really irresponsible and foolish.


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## bulkupman (Aug 16, 2011)

RandomDan said:


> Ill also add that i dont want these things to be banned, I just think its silly the reason why they do get banned.


indeed, & GRB nailed it.


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## RandomDan (Oct 11, 2009)

bulkupman said:


> indeed, & GRB nailed it.


But without hobbyist there is no hobby!
They both need each other to survive.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

so, the two main criteria for being banned by DEFRA or put on the DWA are how dangerous it is and how invasive.....i guess then that Humans should be put there too, :lol2:

seriously though, a dangerous spider (or whatever creature) has a chance to escape and cause damage, possibly death to other people, if people keeping them want to handle them its their risk, but if something did escape and someone was hospitalised or killed would they own up to it being theirs?

a motorcycle or car has to be driven, it cant escape on its own if you leave the garage door open ( no, Cars isnt real im sorry to say! lol )

not everyone who keeps medically significants has a whole boatload of common sense lets be honest now : victory:


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> so, the two main criteria for being banned by DEFRA or put on the DWA are how dangerous it is and how invasive.....i guess then that Humans should be put there too, :lol2:
> 
> seriously though, a dangerous spider (or whatever creature) has a chance to escape and cause damage, possibly death to other people, if people keeping them want to handle them its their risk, but if something did escape and someone was hospitalised or killed would they own up to it being theirs?
> 
> ...


Just crush my dreams why don't you 


Seriously though spot on post really, we keep them therefore we have a responcablity to keep them secure and with minimal chance of hurting someone else : victory:


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## vivalabam (Aug 8, 2010)

Biggys said:


> Just crush my dreams why don't you
> 
> 
> Seriously though spot on post really, we keep them therefore we have a responcablity to keep them secure and with minimal chance of hurting someone else : victory:


It's why my pede is double tanked!


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## DPK (Aug 21, 2011)

For the pic ... Idiot....

For the hobbyists, owch....

This is one way of ruining the hobby,....

Same as anouther way would be to drill stupid sized holes in there enclosures knowing they might escape....

All i can say is "Think before you act".....

It doesnt take alot, infact it is a simple task to be, how to say this.... Responcible....

Be sensible people...


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## hazza12 (Apr 16, 2009)

bit of a silly person indeed IMO why the need to hold it?


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## RandomDan (Oct 11, 2009)

hazza12 said:


> bit of a silly person indeed IMO why the need to hold it?


Cus he is well 'ard innit


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## lorelei (Feb 13, 2012)

Sorry for answering so late, but I received the link to this topic today. I'm the photographer and I'm closely related to the man that is on this picture. And I think it's at least impolite to offend someone by using such a word as "idiot", especially without talking with the offended person, am I right? I would suggest it's even ill-breeding.
The next thing is that this spider is Sicarius terrosus, not hahni. The fact that you have this species doesn't mean that every spider in the world that is similar to it is also called hahni.. Sorry.



cascadingstylez said:


> Scares the heck out of me any time I need to get close to it.


Well, I think it's high time you sold your spider. It's at least irresponsible to keep an animal that you are deadly afraid of. What if it escapes one day? You will run away from the house and it will kill your cat or mother, because it's SO dangerous.. Why do you keep such a venomous spider? To tell your friends and girls that you are so brave and cool? We breed animals because it's our passion and we try to learn about them as much as possible. And we tend to develop our knowledge all the time.



> Ignoring the dangers of a deadly spider is asking for trouble.


Yes, the same thing with driving a car, much more people die in car accidents than because of venomous animals. If you know how to handle an animal, have any idea how it behaves and you are not afraid of it there is a very small risk that something bad happens. Of course, there is still some risk, but it's even higher when you drive a car or ride a horse, our modern world is founded on dangers. 
Why don't you cry that for example motorcyclists drive so fast and die or hurt themselves during their contests? It's also very dangerous, they know it and they still do it, because they love it. We keep animals for many years and we're still alive, we aren't kids and we didn't put this picture in here, so I don't understand this discussion 
If you have any questions or problems please write a private message, I have registered here just to respond to this insult.
Kind regards.


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## Cockys Royals (Jun 28, 2008)

Its that kick and adrenalin rush I blame


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

I don't know what the big deal is here, it's no different than someone handling a venomous snake and that happens all the time.

Also from what I've seen it's not an aggressive species even if it's very dangerous venom wise, I'd quite happily handle a sea Krait because I know it's very unlikely to bite me but if it did I'd be in the brown stuff.


Jim


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## boxofsorrows (Nov 7, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> a motorcycle or car has to be driven, it cant escape on its own if you leave the garage door open ( no, Cars isnt real im sorry to say! lol )


Course they can't do that for real, they're just cartoons! 

Herbie is 100% real though - just wanted to clarify that. 

Proper Herbie that is, not those crappy "new" beetles that have been dressed up in Herbie clothes of course.

Before anyone starts, I'm 'on-topic' - Herbie's a beetle!


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## swampeh (Dec 4, 2011)

We own these creatures because we respect them and are fascinated by them. They are not here for us to treat them like a circus tool.
You as the photographer should not have encouraged this.


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

swampeh said:


> We own these creatures because we respect them and are fascinated by them. They are not here for us to treat them like a circus tool.
> You as the photographer should not have encouraged this.


Seriously! Everyone takes pictures of their animals, how is this any different than some taking a picture holding a 20 foot Retic? Or someone holding a King Cobra?

I just don't get some of these views, this type of spider has killed less people than bees and wasps.


Time to get real I think.


Jim


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

Tbh you see loads of people handling baboons and pokies with nothing said and a reaction from a bite from either of these is likely to cause as much grief, i think theres very little cases of death from bites of this species tbh.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

TEENY said:


> Tbh you see loads of people handling baboons and pokies with nothing said and a reaction from a bite from either of these is likely to cause as much grief, i think theres very little cases of death from bites of this species tbh.


No where near as bad ! A bite from these bad boys is like a bight from a brown recluse have a looksy on google


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## TEENY (Jan 4, 2008)

jaykickboxer said:


> No where near as bad ! A bite from these bad boys is like a bight from a brown recluse have a looksy on google


You know what i mean tho surely, maybe i should explain clearer, a baboon or pokie is capable of putting someone on a ventilator in hospital and yet this is passed by. I understand that the bite from these boys is severe and may well be stronger venom but its mad that people don't seem to notice the danger in the others ???
And like i said the death rate from bites of this species are really kinda unheard of.


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## swampeh (Dec 4, 2011)

Like i said Respect not stupid behaviour


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

swampeh said:


> Like i said Respect not stupid behaviour


Like I said, how is it stupid behaviour? The antis on this thread need a reality check, as I said earlier bees and wasps kill more people than this spider does.


Jim


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

JimmyMature said:


> Like I said, how is it stupid behaviour? The antis on this thread need a reality check, as I said earlier bees and wasps kill more people than this spider does.
> 
> 
> Jim


i'm sure if there were as many Sicarius around as wasps or bee's that wouldnt be the case


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## Carl6688 (Jan 18, 2011)

JimmyMature said:


> Like I said, how is it stupid behaviour? The antis on this thread need a reality check, as I said earlier bees and wasps kill more people than this spider does.
> 
> 
> Jim


This reminds me of a documentary I once watched about keeping chimpanzees as pets. When one of the owners was asked if she thinks chimps are too dangerous to keep as pets, her response was "Dogs kill more people than chimps, and people keep those." Terrible logic is terrible.


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> i'm sure if there were as many Sicarius around as wasps or bee's that wouldnt be the case


I suspect many people get bitten by this spider in the wild and in the pet trade but only one reported death.

People need to accept that whilst it's a nasty bite it's not deadly, the facts speak for themselves.

The Funnel Web spider as an example is a proper nasty spider, until the anti venom was created everyone who was bitten died, that's a proper nasty spider...

Jim


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## Carl6688 (Jan 18, 2011)

JimmyMature said:


> I suspect many people get bitten by this spider in the wild and in the pet trade but only *one reported death*.
> 
> People need to accept that whilst *it's a nasty bite it's not deadly, the facts speak for themselves.*
> 
> ...


Even if it's only caused one death, thats still enough reason for any sane person to not handle it, especially when there is no reason too.


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

Carl6688 said:


> Even if it's only caused one death, thats still enough reason for any sane person to not handle it, especially when there is no reason too.


My point is why all this hysteria about someone holding an animal that is not deadly?

It's his choice, I also suspect he didn't get bitten or die.......


Jim


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## PAB (Aug 4, 2010)

Pt Barnum would have been proud of that pic.


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## Carl6688 (Jan 18, 2011)

JimmyMature said:


> My point is why all this hysteria about someone holding an animal that is not deadly?
> 
> It's his choice, I also suspect he didn't get bitten or die.......
> 
> ...


It *is* deadly, and even If it doesn't kill you, a bite will be very unpleasant. Ofcourse it's his choice, that doesn't mean it's not a stupid one.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

JimmyMature said:


> I suspect many people get bitten by this spider in the wild and in the pet trade but only one reported death.
> 
> People need to accept that whilst it's a nasty bite it's not deadly, the facts speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


Your reply suggests a lack of knowledge of this spider. And your rationale is therefore quite flawed, certainly not factual.
So, in the interests of explaining and provding a better understanding please consider the following:
Whilst the death rate is low, its far more renowned for tissue damage, the highest level of any Sicarius species. It attacks the skin, fat, muscle, blood, heart, liver, kidneys, lungs, brain, arteries/ veins/ capillaries, and intestines in particular, although it affects any tissue or organ which requires blood circulation. 
The venom has a necrotoxic affect, for which there is no anti-venom, worldwide! So, whilst you're considering I'm not going to die, just have a little thought for the destruction of your vital organs and how that might affect the rest of your life.
The reason there is a low incidence of bites in the UK is that its only been in the hobby for a few years.
The reason there is a low incidence of bite is the simple fact these come from the deserts of South Africa, largely uninhabited by humans. Its actually recorded as the lowest instance of spider to human contact.
And then someone decides to handle it!


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## azza23 (May 4, 2011)

cascadingstylez said:


> Caught this on another forum. If it's been posted already, forgive me. But I can not understand the minds of these people. Why are you going to handle a spider* that will kill you if it bite?!?!?!?!?!?!*
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Thats a bold statement, almost like your saying its fact, i know nothing about spiders, do you require a DWAL for these species or not, i'm guessing not wich would make me think there not deadly, if they are on the list then :blush::blush::blush::blush: :lol2:


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

azza23 said:


> Thats a bold statement, almost like your saying its fact, i know nothing about spiders, do you require a DWAL for these species or not, i'm guessing not wich would make me think there not deadly, if they are on the list then :blush::blush::blush::blush: :lol2:


lots of potentially deadly creatures are not on the DWA list, just as lots of non-deadly ones are on it.


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

azza23 said:


> Thats a bold statement, almost like your saying its fact, i know nothing about spiders, do you require a DWAL for these species or not, i'm guessing not wich would make me think there not deadly, if they are on the list then :blush::blush::blush::blush: :lol2:


At the moment they can be kept without a DWA permit, but they are relatively new to the hobby so that might change if they become more widely kept. Especially if somebody gets bitten by one and suffers serious systemic damage or dies as a result.

this might be interesting reading, although most studies have been done on rabbits due to the spider normally living far from human habitation, there has been a lack of human bite victims to study.

http://archive.samj.org.za/1988 VOL...TANCE, WITH NOTES ON THE SIGNS AND SYMPTO.pdf


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

Again huge amounts of hysteria over someone handling a spider that's only killed one person (recorded) that you don't need a DWA licence for and the guy didn't get bitten, get tissue damage or die.....

I think the facts speak for themselves. As for the fact that you 'experts' on here seem to know more than me by a long shot doesn't make your statement that this guy is an idiot correct.


Jim


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## Carl6688 (Jan 18, 2011)

JimmyMature said:


> Again huge amounts of hysteria over someone handling a spider that's only killed one person (recorded) that you don't need a DWA licence for and the guy didn't get bitten, get tissue damage or die.....
> 
> I think the facts speak for themselves. As for the fact that you 'experts' on here seem to know more than me by a long shot doesn't make your statement that this guy is an idiot correct.
> 
> ...


You are the one whos not reading the facts properly. Which part of them not coming in to contact with humans very often do you not understand? You don't have to be an 'expert' to see how handling this species is idiotic.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

How can the _opinion _that the guy is an idiot be correct or incorrect? 

It's an opinion; they tend to differ and since this one is based on interpretation of an act I don't think you can argue either interpretation is more correct than the other. 

I personally think the guy is an idiot because if you post something like this online then chances are it will be reposted and people will criticise it. To expect otherwise is naive...

Of course, the act itself is hardly reaching the pinnacle of intelligent acts either, but I accept that some people will disagree and think handling potentially dangerous animals is intelligent. 

"_Just because you can, doesn't mean you should_".


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## Dr3d (Jul 31, 2010)

GRB said:


> How can the _opinion _that the guy is an idiot be correct or incorrect?
> 
> It's an opinion; they tend to differ and since this one is based on interpretation of an act I don't think you can argue either interpretation is more correct than the other.
> 
> ...


Nice to see you back GRB


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

Carl6688 said:


> You are the one whos not reading the facts properly. Which part of them not coming in to contact with humans very often do you not understand? You don't have to be an 'expert' to see how handling this species is idiotic.


:censor:, I love it when people pick and choose what facts they want to listen to. The FACT is one death......

"Do YOU not understand".....


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

JimmyMature said:


> :censor:, I love it when people pick and choose what facts they want to listen to. The FACT is one death......
> 
> "Do YOU not understand".....



the facts are, this spider HAS killed, the facts are the bite from this spider DOES cause necrosis and organ failure.

come back when you can bring more than bravado fueled comments and anecdotal wiki quotes

:2thumb:


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> the facts are, this spider HAS killed, the facts are the bite from this spider DOES cause necrosis and organ failure.
> 
> come back when you can bring more than bravado fueled comments and anecdotal wiki quotes
> 
> :2thumb:


:censor: another 'expert' coming along to set the world straight...


One Death? Or do the 'Internet experts' know any different? Yeah it's nasty but stupid for one person to handle one?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

JimmyMature said:


> LMFAO, another 'expert' coming along to set the world straight...
> 
> 
> One Death? Or do the 'Internet experts' know any different? Yeah it's nasty but stupid for one person to handle one?


not setting the world straight, just a misinformed 'macho' man, but thanks for your worthless contribution , we shall take it under advisement :2thumb:


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> not setting the world straight, just a misinformed 'macho' man, but thanks for your worthless contribution , we shall take it under advisement :2thumb:


Who moderates the moderators? Name calling and flaming, can I report this to you Steve?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

JimmyMature said:


> Who moderates the moderators? Name calling and flaming, can I report this to you Steve?


the admin moderate the moderators

you can contact them here:
Reptile Forums - View Profile: GRB

or here

Reptile Forums - View Profile: Athravan

:2thumb:


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

if you wish to report a specific post let me help you further, just click the icon indicated


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## spidersteve (Jan 25, 2010)

Heres my tuppence worth. Theres probably a very small amount of these spiders here in uk so the chances of people being bitten and killed is small due to the low number of people keeping them, If there were millions of these spiders being handled the death rate would rise? I may be a little presumptious but I think there would be many more incidents/deaths and these spiders would no doubt make it on to the DWA. How many people were savaged by pittbulls before they were banned and legislated against...Not that many. If people want to risk their lives, Screw their families up with the notion that we all think they are Dr dolittle then let them! As Bill hick's would say "One less idiot" R.I.P!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

cant help thinking of this. "its only a flesh wound"
Monty Python-The Black Knight - YouTube


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## Carl6688 (Jan 18, 2011)

JimmyMature said:


> :censor:, I love it when people pick and choose what facts they want to listen to. The FACT is one death......
> 
> "Do YOU not understand".....


It's one death because they don't come into contact with humans very often. This isn't hard to comprehend, I certainly shouldn't have to try and explain it to another human being.


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

Carl6688 said:


> It's one death because they don't come into contact with humans very often. This isn't hard to comprehend, I certainly shouldn't have to try and explain it to another human being.


Well it came into contact with the guy in the picture. Comments like "This isn't hard to comprehend, I certainly shouldn't have to try and explain it to another human being" is just a flame attempt IMO.

I'll resist a suitably childish comment back at ya...


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## Carl6688 (Jan 18, 2011)

JimmyMature said:


> Well it came into contact with the guy in the picture. Comments like "This isn't hard to comprehend, I certainly shouldn't have to try and explain it to another human being" is just a flame attempt IMO.
> 
> I'll resist a suitably childish comment back at ya...


So because it didn't bite this guy on this occasion we should all rush out and handle one right? This isn't some cute little puppy you can tame not to bite, It's a wild animal which makes it unpredictable, armed with a bite that could possibly kill you.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

JimmyMature said:


> Well it came into contact with the guy in the picture. Comments like "This isn't hard to comprehend, I certainly shouldn't have to try and explain it to another human being" is just a flame attempt IMO.
> 
> I'll resist a suitably childish comment back at ya...



i guess you chose to ignore the scientific documentation that gives envenomation reactions in detail then?


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> i guess you chose to ignore the scientific documentation that gives envenomation reactions in detail then?


I'm done with this thread you'll be happy to know, it appears opinions are not allowed unless they agree with the 'experts'


Jim


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## Carl6688 (Jan 18, 2011)

JimmyMature said:


> I'm done with this thread you'll be happy to know, it appears opinions are not allowed unless they agree with the 'experts'
> 
> 
> Jim


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## JimmyMature (Jan 8, 2012)

Carl6688 said:


> image


LOL (this reply doesn't count)


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

Jimmy Mature said:


> Who moderates the moderators? Name calling and flaming, can I report this to you Steve?


 

I agree totally with Steve and so would many other members,He is one of the best mods on this forum and majority of the time always supports his posts with facts, stop been petty over nothing. Macho man.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

JimmyMature said:


> I'm done with this thread you'll be happy to know, it appears opinions are not allowed unless they agree with the 'experts'
> 
> 
> Jim


I guess by experts you mean The South African Medical Research Council that Lisa linked to and the British Homeopathic Journal and Indiana University that I referenced?

What you have to remember, is the majority of invert keepers within this, and most likely many other invert forums do not like to see someone handling something that will encourage others to do the same when there's significant reasons for not doing so. Most people keep handling down to a minimum even with non life threatening species. Its accepted that these rarely bite but its fact that there's little you can do if you get bitten and the symptoms are listed. With that in mind you're never going to defend your argument well with a defence of _only one death_. 
What would be far more credible would be to find information that showed where contact was made between human and spider there were no issues. Or similar arguments that dispelled the "hysteria". Personally I doubt you'll find it due to their low instance but until then its surely sensible to follow the line of precaution.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> I guess by experts you mean The South African Medical Research Council that Lisa linked to and the British Homeopathic Journal and Indiana University that I referenced?
> 
> What you have to remember, is the majority of invert keepers within this, and most likely many other invert forums do not like to see someone handling something that will encourage others to do the same when there's significant reasons for not doing so. Most people keep handling down to a minimum even with non life threatening species. Its accepted that these rarely bite but its fact that there's little you can do if you get bitten and the symptoms are listed. With that in mind you're never going to defend your argument well with a defence of _only one death_.
> What would be far more credible would be to find information that showed where contact was made between human and spider there were no issues. Or similar arguments that dispelled the "hysteria". Personally I doubt you'll find it due to their low instance but until then its surely sensible to follow the line of precaution.


i posted a link to the British Homeopathic Journal and Indiana University paper back at the top of page 3, the whole paper there for everyone to read....but alas it must have been too much


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## azza23 (May 4, 2011)

wilkinss77 said:


> lots of potentially deadly creatures are not on the DWA list, just as lots of non-deadly ones are on it.


deadly is all relative, e.g dogs can and have the potential to kill, but its very rare due to them being domesticated, i think "deadly" is in the same leauge as how aggresive or likely the animal is to bite not how venemous it is, and its not all about wether the animal can kill but how much damage it can do, e.g i dont beleive a 3 foot dwarf caimen can kill but it can deffo rip you up bad yet they are on the list, i keep monitors and i know that a 7 foot water monitor can do as much damage as say a 2-3 foot dwarf caimen but there much less likely to bite. That being said i dont have a clue about spiders i do keep a few scorpions but nothing dangerous, also i to think that theres animals on the dwal that shouldnt be but thats another convosation for another time :lol2:


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## lucozade3000 (Aug 16, 2008)

azza23 said:


> deadly is all relative, e.g dogs can and have the potential to kill, but its very rare due to them being domesticated, i think "deadly" is in the same leauge as how aggresive or likely the animal is to bite not how venemous it is, and its not all about wether the animal can kill but how much damage it can do, e.g i dont beleive a 3 foot dwarf caimen can kill but it can deffo rip you up bad yet they are on the list, i keep monitors and i know that a 7 foot water monitor can do as much damage as say a 2-3 foot dwarf caimen but there much less likely to bite. That being said i dont have a clue about spiders i do keep a few scorpions but nothing dangerous, also i to think that theres animals on the dwal that shouldnt be but thats another convosation for another time :lol2:


Deadly in this case is not relative. A bite is a bite, that's what they do and one of these bites opens the door to a very certain and excruciatingly painful death.
You can survive a nasty bite from a dog or a caiman but even a gentle bite from that spider will send you to the other side.
As i mentioned in page 2 or 3 the only way to limit the damage to the tissues is to remove (cut off) the affected limb but you would probably die anyway.
It's not a question of afflicted damage as you mentioned but a question of a single bite THEN the irreversible damage.

I have 2 of these and it would never cross my mind to start thinking about thinking of handling one but that is my choice. (I love life)

Can't believe that thread is still going on, Everything has been very clearly explained in detail.
What's left to contest?

-J


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## RandomDan (Oct 11, 2009)

lucozade3000 said:


> Can't believe that thread is still going on, Everything has been very clearly explained in detail.
> What's left to contest?
> 
> -J


Seconded, can someone please close this argument of a thread?! D:


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