# Are Reptile Shows?



## TSKA Rory Matier

Are Reptile Shows really up to scratch?

'They' want to ban them, and have wanted to do so for a long time now, are they right to want to do so or are they wrong?

Are the reptile shows held by societies in the United Kingdom actually good enough?

Is the presented husbandry really suitable?

Could we do better at presentation that we do already.....?

Does the reptile show present the industry in a favourable light?

What is the real future for reptile shows?

Can we improve the quality of the reptile show?

Rory


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## brittone05

I have never been to a major reptile show so can't really comment on how they could or should be improved.

I would sya, having seen pics, the whole event looks very chaotic and with lots of hustle and bustle the venues always appear to be very crowded.

I would like to see a well organised event for myself one day but with not driving and having young children, it is difficult to travel 

A event with a spcaious venue would be brilliant and not overbooked so that it is crammed to the roof. I know getting outlay back is a big emphasisi for any organiser but in my eyes, just because a venue will hold 200 tables and 500 peoiple doesn't mean it should have that many ya know.

Am babling a bit really nad not even sure I am puttig across a valid point of view as, like I say, i have never experienced a show first hadn only seen pics and read other keepers accounts of thier days


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## jav07

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Are Reptile Shows really up to scratch?
> 
> 'They' want to ban them, and have wanted to do so for a long time now, are they right to want to do so or are they wrong?
> 
> Are the reptile shows held by societies in the United Kingdom actually good enough?
> 
> Is the presented husbandry really suitable?
> 
> Could we do better at presentation that we do already.....?
> 
> Does the reptile show present the industry in a favourable light?
> 
> What is the real future for reptile shows?
> 
> Can we improve the quality of the reptile show?
> 
> Rory


what are your thoughts on the shows as you havn't really said:lol2:


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*The Idea being..*

Hi Jav07, 

The idea being 'to ask you and other readers' their views..?

R


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## Marinam2

I've never been, its never been made easy for me to get to one and the fact that i'd have to pay entrance fee take the mickey!!

I've seen pics though and set ups always look suitable and clean.

Marina


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu

The British shows I find quite dissappointing if you don't just want the "bread and butter" animals.

I find, especially Leopard Gecko's to be stacked and tubbed into tubs almost the same size as them.

I know of a few stands who do well and at least bring a heatmat and decent sized tubs to display in.

I think that if every breeder had a guideline to follow, the shows would be releived of a bit of pressure, hopefully they will see we are responsible enough to not turn a blind eye to stacks and stacks of animals.


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## SiUK

I have never been to a reptile show so I cant really comment on alot of it, but I dont think they show the hobby in a very good light.


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## ratboy

I am always alarmed by the (small) size of the containers that the animals are kept in and the heat/cold that the animals can be subjected to throughout the day... not to mention that a lot of them go without water while on display.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Good Light*

Hi Si, 

In many respects you are right.

Sadly they do not always shows us in a good light at all - they make us ideal for anti fodder.

R


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## ratboy

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Can we improve the quality of the reptile show?


YES !!!!!

Todays reptile shows are all about PRIVATE HOBBIEST breeders selling their hatchlings and older breeding stock. Scrap them !

have a show that is open to the whole industry where no animals are sold on the day but orders can be made, display animals can be present in properly kitted out vivariums and breeders and shop keepers alike can have catalogs and images of the animals they have available for order. This is the 21st century, the age of the computer and the internet.

There is really no need for animals to have to travel many miles, spend the day in a cricket tub at unfavourable temperatures then many miles back again or to a new home.

Just my tuppence worth


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## jav07

ratboy said:


> YES !!!!!
> 
> Todays reptile shows are all about PRIVATE HOBBIEST breeders selling their hatchlings and older breeding stock. Scrap them !
> 
> have a show that is open to the whole industry where no animals are sold on the day but orders can be made, display animals can be present in properly kitted out vivariums and breeders and shop keepers alike can have catalogs and images of the animals they have available for order. This is the 21st century, the age of the computer and the internet.
> 
> There is really no need for animals to have to travel many miles, spend the day in a cricket tub at unfavourable temperatures then many miles back again or to a new home.
> 
> Just my tuppence worth


if you go to a display often traveling miles,pick the animal you would like,travel home again great......then you have to travel again to collect the animal or have it sent(so the animal has to travel one way or the other)and it all bumps the cost up of the original price


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## Moshpitviper

The only real issue i have with shows is the distinct lack of water and hides available to the animals. ok i understand that the vendor wishes to sell these animals and in that case they need to be visible but would it kill the traders to spend 2 seconds opening up the container to show the prospective buyer the animal they may wish to buy? i know it would slow trade down a bit but it really is in the animals best interest.
but to combat the slowing of trading over the day then the organisers could be a bit more lenient with traders passes. if a vendor has a lot of species available on the day and a barrage of the public wishing to see these animals then they may be inundated with questions possibly even give out the wrong husbandry advice. i PERSONALLY have picked up an animal and waved cash at traders only to find my interaction with them is restricted to the counting of my change. no talk of care, no caresheets, granted i most likely knew it before i bought it but does everyone?

i think these issues need to be addressed, we are all working towards the same ends, so for all the traders out there who dont say a word. just have a chat with buyers it could even result in more sales. and generally a bit of customer satisfaction. 

We're all friends here. lets act like it at the next show.


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## Moshpitviper

forgot to add with regards to passes that traders may need up to 4 or 5 people per table depending on variety of stock available.


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## Ally

I accept your challenge - come see my animals at the show!

Ally


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## shiva&kaa123

What are you taking exactly?
Ben


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## SiUK

the way I see it is it must be pretty stressful to the animal, as you mentioned there are no hides no water, bright sunlight when alot of these animals are nocturnal and dont appreciate bright light shining on them with no where to go. lots of movements from people walking around constant vibrations, and probably other bad reasons as well.


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## shiva&kaa123

All the more reason to rescue them and take them home :lol2:
Ben


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## Ally

Doesn't matter on the species - I'm thinking photos so they can hide and still be seen, checkilsts on the tubs, water and decor. I'll give it a go - see if I can make things less stressful for them and see what people think - opinions will be welcome.


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## Moshpitviper

Ally my love i would not miss seeing your animals for the world my dear.

:no1:


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## SiUK

Ally said:


> I'm thinking photos so they can hide and still be seem.


im thinking of some real hustle style shiznay going on here:lol2:


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## Ally

Hey, it's all ideas, and should it work, maybe we can start to change the way animals are displayed and treated at the shows. All about raising the profile, you see!
(I'll have a viv for you Dave, so don't you dare forget to come see me - I'm not lugging it home again!)


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## Moshpitviper

oh yeah, i forgot about that. ur a star my deary


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Valid Points and comments*

Steve, 

You are right, although it does make me think not to mention an idea to you again in passing...LOL

But yes, l think that there are better ways to have the shows in the UK.

The shows l feel are relatively antiquated and need vast improvements.

Animal Welfare is after all the top most priority for any event organiser and must be taken into consideration.

All the points raised here are those oft raised by those that oppose both internal and external hobby, so no new revelations here.

But back to your idea Steve, yes l think that it would be far better to have exhibition style shows dedicated to the entire industry and not 'just' the private hobbyist.

However, with the general consensus being that no show is worth going to unless you can buy animals, exhibitions like this might always be difficult to organise and get much following.

TSKA Event Management are indeed in the process of planning in one such trial exhibition next year, 2008 TSKA HIE-X, which will concentrate on this style of display.

I do forsee, that this style of show could be viable, but preperations for this style would need to be thorough, fully prepared, legal, educational, properly researched and above all attended.

Animals would be present but only displayed, but animals from the entire fraternity rather than purely concentrating on just one segment of the industry.

Politics, societies, federations and indeed should they accept the invitations those that oppose would also have to be present to fully represent the entire industry.

But as said we are in the inital phases only at this present time.

Rory


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## ratboy

jav07 said:


> if you go to a display often traveling miles,pick the animal you would like,travel home again great......then you have to travel again to collect the animal or have it sent(so the animal has to travel one way or the other)and it all bumps the cost up of the original price


Yes the animal has to travel when it's bought. But only from the sellers property to the buyers property.

So you have cut out one journey for the animal and its being on show for 8 hours ... I would pay the extra petrol costs for that.


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## Snakes r grreat

I personally see no reason why animals cannot be sold at shows, however, i do agree alot more could be done by the sellers in the presentation and overall set-ups of the tubs they are displayed in for the day. Surely they have a duty to the hobby to cast it in the best possibly light. 

I also think the organisers could do more in the way the table's are laid out so us 'punters' are not so crammed, i appreciate the sellers need room behind them, but not half a football pitch?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Elaboration...*

Perhaps it should be elaborated.

All of this show would be 100% within the confines of our markets' legislation.

If, IF - this exhibition was to go ahead, it would be about the promotion of the industry. Of the societies and federations, about gleaning affiliations to the federations as well as new memberships to the societies. Politics would be represented.

It would be promoting the husbandry elements of animal care, the education aspects, mobile education, and so on.

It would be looking to have lectures present.

Whilst it may have animals displayed, it would not be about sales, on either the day nor immediately afterwards. There are elements that could be sold as there are indeed at all shows - such as feeds and wares associated.

It would be about the presentation of the industry, the fraternities and keepers passion.

It would be about the selling of responsible animal care full stop.

This industry perhaps needs to understand that an exhibition can go ahead without the sales of animals as this would in fact be a much broader concept.

The advertising of editorials and magazines that represent our industry, the highlighting of retail.

It would not be about selling the likes of species found at a society show that small hobbyiests attend, but more along the lines of an educational and information venue event.

Hopefully this post will stop the rattling of cages , and will not upset the organizers of society events which the exhibition was not designed to do as an idea but to help further promote the unification of this industry instead of the constant and continuing fragmentation.

Rory Matier


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## Snakes r grreat

Sounds like a good idea Rory, very interesting. However, knowing what people are like, a part of me thinks good luck mate, lets see if anyone turns up. 

I would try my best to be there, purely to be nosey.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Aye*

Oh l know, all new ideas and concepts are usually frowned upon.

The argument for and against in this style of exhibition would be high.

Those attending would want to make sales, understandably to cover the outlaying expenditures of overheads.

I did not say something like this could be easy, but as said, it is an idea only in the initial phaseing.

R


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## Snakes r grreat

Well i look forward to its development, and your phone call. :bash::lol2:


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Society shows*

But aside from HIE-X, ideas that have been suggested here by other readers - keepers are options that should be taken on board as a general rule of thumb anyway.

I think our shows do need updating, they need to be improved upon.

There should be a code of conduct for all shows where reptiles are sold. A guideline to which the hobbiest can refer. Whether this be written by the Society or even the Federation - there should be something.

Table layouts should perhaps be different, and this is not a stab at - so dont go there [anyone] - it is an observation.

The whole process of the show needs to be studied effectively and correctly, and this done then and only then can the improvements can be made.


R


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## Andy

I know what people mean about the tubs etc they are displayed in but it doesn't really do the reptiles any harm I have bought many a snake from reptile shows and none have been in anything other than perfect health. I know the shows in Holland have minimum tub sizes for the sellers but not sure if the UK shows adhere to the same sort of rules.


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## ratboy

Shows at the moment though really do resemble indoor markets. Which is exactly what those who want them to end are saying and the very legislation they use to try and get them stopped.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Shows*

As said, there is room for some vast improvement in the reptile show.

Many things are sometimes not discussed and are brushed under the carpet, and this too must be addressed properly, mustn't it?

Inner society conflicts need to be ironed out and people need to start waking up and looking at issues that are raised instead of over reacting to simple ideas.

R


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## Nerys

the thing is, as we well know, what we say and who is watching us. brushing things under carpets is all very well, until some bugger lifts the mat and really shows the dirt underneath to the world

will it help our case, when i tell you andy, i personally know of 6 deaths at reptile shows this year? as a result of being in a small tub in the glaring heat?

two are posted on here already, so i don't say anything that has not been raised already, just most people missed it last time.

3 of the animals i saw personally, 2 of them i personally tried, and failed, to resusitate.. (spell?) i even tried heart massage and mouth to mouth, and yes, that can be done if you know how..

in MY opinion, this is not acceptable. in the eyes of the antis, its good enough reason to close all uk shows (and exhibitions) for good.

i would rather I raised it for us to discuss and prevent, than have it raised for us, and if people worry about stirring up the antis, then good, thats the idea.. if we do not self regulate, then why should they not do it for us - and thats how the general public will see it

choice of venue needs to be something taken far more care of. at least 2 deaths would NOT have happened, had the venue in question not been tantamount to an indoor frigging greenhouse. sun in august in the uk is not unheard of afterall, in my (not so) humble opinion, a lot more thought should have gone into venue choice and the implications of that venue considering the time of year, and possible weather conditions. with all the experience of organising events that gets bandied about, someone still managed to overlook this problem, and in some ways, is therefore responsible for deaths at reptile shows only this summer.

no doubt i will get flack for bringing it up publically, but, there we go, you make the bed you lie in, and if we cannot make our own beds neatly, then tbh, we deserve to get the shit for it.

Nerys


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## Nerys

and another thing that amazes me...

so many people read this, so many people immediatly get on the phones hopping up and down in a state..

and so few actually put their money where their mouth is

as adults, we learn from our mistakes and move on right? 

we use the mistakes we make to help prevent the same from occuring again.. right?

seems many are more interested in who wears the hat. than what the contents of the hat are standing for.

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Codes of Practice*

Interestingy enough, here is something that was drawn up in October 2002 by Chris Newman. It is a draft only, and was placed out into the community for suggestions and ideas and more importantly responses. Nothing came back.


It was designed for the FBH

*The Aims*
*The purposes of this Code of Practice are:*


[*]To promote responsible ownership of reptiles and amphibians.
[*]To increase awareness of welfare issues.
[*]To better educate both staff and customers.
To simplify complaints procedure and provide a conciliation service.



[*]These rules apply to all members with animals for sale. Traders (who are NOT permitted to sell livestock) and members attending the event as either full FBH members or as members of an affiliated society.
[*]Membership to affiliated society or the FBH must be proved for admittance either as a Trader/seller or as a visitor. This must be a current FBH membership card or a current affiliated Society membership card.
[*]There is also no admittance to children under 16 unless accompanied by an adult who will be responsible for their conduct. Finally, there is no admittance to members of non-affiliated organisations.
[*]All Traders/Societies must display at all times their contact details (name & telephone number) and stand numbers.
[*]Traders will be classed as: anyone who normally trades (does business) under an EHA pet shop licence whether from a place of business or private dwelling or is VAT registered in the business of selling livestock.
[*]All animals must be healthy & housed singly in appropriately sized, clean containers. Lighting and/or heating to be provided as necessary. Housing deemed unsuitable by the FBH or Show Organisers must be removed from display.
[*]No smoking is permitted in the hall at any time.
[*]No food to be consumed in the hall.
[*]Members must ensure that a care sheet should be available for ALL livestock sold. Receipts may be issued; if the Show Organisers request this then all sellers must comply.
[*]All animals offered for sale must be in a satisfactory condition.
[*]No sales to under 16s.
[*]The following animals must not be offered for sale or displayed
[*]Anything covered by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, unless the venue is licensed for these purposes.
[*]

Any species deemed unsuitable by the Show Organisers.




[*]These species will be listed in a supplementary rules list.


[*]Nobody is to walk about the venue with animals unless they are in a bag or suitable container. No handling of animals will be permitted except at point of sale. No children under 5 years are to handle any animal. 



[*]Any CITES species sold must be accompanied by the relevant documentation where appropriate.
[*]No live mammals to be sold or displayed in the same room as reptiles.
[*]The FBH or Show Organisers accepts no responsibility for any loss or damage no matter how caused.
[*]Cameras only allowed with prior permission.
[*]No unauthorised sub-letting of tables.
[*]Antiseptic handwipes must be available on every table displaying/selling livestock.
ANY FAILURE TO ADHERE TO THESE RULES WILL LEAD TO EXPULSION FROM THE SHOW.

So after researching something l wrote yesterday about a code of practice, it turns out that in reality five years ago something was already drawn up.

Further thought now perhaps? Perhaps it is time for a sit down to discuss a new COP???

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers' Lobby


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Point is...*

Yes, sadly some things here are not what perhaps are wanting to be viewed by those that watch and oppose.

But we can not continually criticise them and pretend that all things are sweet and merry in our fields.

If shows are to continue as an example, then all things must be addressed correctly and responsibly.

Ownership of responsibility must be a raised issue.

R


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## Andy

Nerys said:


> will it help our case, when i tell you andy, i personally know of 6 deaths at reptile shows this year? as a result of being in a small tub in the glaring heat?


Well, if you were an anti saying that to me I would say did you have PM done on these animals to prove they died as a result of being kept in a tub in the heat.


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## Nerys

no, i was on the table next door to one of them.. my table temp hit 100f.. 

i do not need to do a pm to know why that one died no...

another one, was sold by Nigel.. i doubt nigel would have sold it if it was ill..

they died from being too hot. end of story. you do not have to be a vet and cut it open to know that, you just had to be there to see it.

how many people did i hear complain about it at that show? loads.. "you should see the leos over there going nuts trying to escape" "look at all those baby snakes trying to get out" my cresties hit 95f at one point, in the SHADE... how i did not loose one i do not know tbh..

i had my stuff covered and shaded and still it was too hot.. other people ended up with snakes on the floor under tables to try and protect them.. 

its just not good enough really

N


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## Andy

So did you stop selling and take all your animals away into your car with the air-con on? Or did anyone else? I wasn't at that show so can comment on the heat or whatever. The people selling at the shows are the ones responsible more so than the people hosting the event. You should have measures in place to cool the animals if its getting too hot.


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## Nerys

thankfully i did not have a lot with me, and yes i did have measures i was using to cool them down.. yes people did leave early. my cresties were in a tank set up, not cricket boxes, so i was able to spray and sheild them, but as a result i did not sell any, you cannot sell what you cannot see

the heat was only a problem as the venue had a glass roof, there was no way of cooling it down.. 

see, some people had fans, but because reptiles do not sweat, a fan does not help them at all, it only helps the humans.

in reality, when the temp of the hall was going over 100f, there was no way for the sellers to help the animals, bar moving them into whatever shade they could find. 

it was a bad choice of venue for the time of year the show was booked for. 

from an antis point of veiw, keeping an adult animal (leo) in a cricket tub not even big enough for them to turn round in, would be used as propoganda against us. you may not like it (or me for saying it) but it IS the truth. show conditions need to be improved

Nerys


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Err..actually*

Sorry, 

The shows organizers are equally as responsible, in so far as venue choice, layout, indoor air conditioning etc.

But also, l agree to a certain degree, keepers are responsible for the conditions their animals are sold in, how they are sold, what they are sold in.

Your tub, as you refer to it, is in my eyes a totally unacceptable selling environment habitat - it is not good enough at all.

I have a problem with the tubs that they are sold in - full stop. And l am not what one would class as a reptile person. Most 'antis' are not reptile knowledgable, but they too have a problem with the range of habitats that the species are sold within.

But even if we were working to the premise that those tubs are acceptable.

The show organizers must ensure that the environment in which the show is to be hosted offers the right facilities for all parties concerned, with an expressed concern with the species being sold.

Rory


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## Andy

Fair enough but once at the show, as Nerys has said, the sellers should put the animals welfare first. If this means leaving the show because its too hot then thats what they should do. Yes the venue should of been better but if you go into a room with a glass roof in the middle of summer you should know its going to get too hot and do something about it before its a problem. Also, you say tubs are bad. How would you like to see reptiles presented and sold at reptile shows? Bearing in mind that the majority of reptiles sold at these shows are baby cornsnakes and the majority of breeders house their baby corns in the same tubs for quite a while until they are big enough to go into bigger tubs. And alot of hobbyists keep their adult snakes in tubs in racks for their whole lifes. Is it the tubs themselves you dont like or the conditions in the venue that makes tubs unsuiitable? By the way i have never sold at any shows and never intend to i have only bought.


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## ratboy

Have to agree with Andy on that point.

If all the sellers had cleared their tables and walked out, the organisers would have soon got the message.


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## Nerys

Andy;794637 Yes the venue should of been better but if you go into a room with a glass roof in the middle of summer you should know its going to get too hot and do something about it before its a problem. [/quote said:


> my EXACT point on that score andy yes
> 
> IMHO the show organisers should have thought about this in advance yes. the "doing something about it" would have been to not book that particular hall.
> 
> once inside, on a hot day, it was already getting too hot by the time the doors opened at 10 - 10.30
> 
> tubs.. with the new AWA regulations, people who keep snakes in tubs may find their days numbered anyway tbh..
> 
> cricket boxes, with no hide and no water available, is NOT how most breeders keep their baby corns and leopared gecko's
> 
> N


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## TSKA Rory Matier

The selling tub l think is unsuitable when they are on display to be sold directly to the public. How many of the same public are actual keepers and not watchers just looking at the layout of the shows themselves. And this always needs to be looked at by those selling.

I know about the keepers who keep their adults at home in a racking system, and of course these racks are also constantly under debate by those that oppose, but l am not attacking this or these systems in the home front.

But for the sake of selling livestock at shows, more consideration needs to be addressed by the sellers.

Most of the time, the seller wishes to have as many species available for viewing as they can - in order to sell and to display the biggest range of availability.

How would l like to see them sold?

In a more suitably spacious environment. There must be larger boxes available allowing for stimulation and watering?

R


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## ratboy

Andy said:


> Also, you say tubs are bad. How would you like to see reptiles presented and sold at reptile shows? Bearing in mind that the majority of reptiles sold at these shows are baby cornsnakes and the majority of breeders house their baby corns in the same tubs for quite a while until they are big enough to go into bigger tubs.


What I tend to do is take a couple of large clear tubs which are easily big enough for the animal and a water bowl.. this has the added bonus that the snake can actually get into his water bowl if needs to cool down. It's siblings are kept behind the table in a large cardboard box, each in their own tub with a water bowl. 

Once one of the animals on the table is sold, it is transferred back into the tub it was transported in and given to the buyer. A sibling is then put into the clear tub on the table.

There is really no requirement that every hatchling has to be on the table at the same time... maybe this is not the case with corns though because of the sheer number of morphs people breed.


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## TSKA Rory Matier

ratboy said:


> Have to agree with Andy on that point.
> 
> If all the sellers had cleared their tables and walked out, the organisers would have soon got the message.


 
Very true, and a very valid point, however people are there to sell and make money, to cover the expenditure of travelling to the show and paying for the layout of the tables they have booked.

The purpose behind these shows is to allow members of the society's to sell their surplus on.

Perhaps a walk out may have been the answer - but at a monetary loss also. 

The comeback argument is that also animals may not have died had a walkout gone ahead, and this too is true.

This is a nasty catch 22 but l think if more consideration is discussed prior to booking and as well as what is suitable selling environments then perhaps situations like this could have been avoided.

Animal welfare in todays climate is the utmost aspect, it should not have to come down to a walkout by sellers to promote this.

R


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## Nerys

ok... so this is how the antis see our shows.. i think many of you will not have seen these..

this report is from 2002, and details an undercover investigation by CAPS. their article is in red, my edits are in black.

Reptile fairs - undercover in Redditch
Archive - November 2002
*CAPS continues to work closely with Animal Aid to campaign for an end to reptile fairs across the country. These fairs are illegal under the Pet Animals Act 1951 but local authorities appear somewhat confused about the legislation and apply it in different ways - or not at all!*
The reptile breeders and dealers also try and find ways to get around the legislation and when Redditch Borough Council recently allowed a reptile fair to go ahead on the grounds that it would only consist of individuals selling their own pets, a CAPS investigation team decided to pay a visit.


next bit shows pics, so i will post this as a screen shot.. makes it easier..













A range of reptiles and small mammals were on sale as well as frozen rats, mice, gerbils and chicks to feed reptiles. As with all reptile fairs, the animals were kept in small plastic containers in which they had little room to move. At least one trader appeared to have travelled from Scotland and many of the animals on sale could well have been in these plastic containers since the previous day.


but you see the wording under the pics... that ALL still goes on today, bar smoking inside the hall. people eat and drink, people do not wash hands or advise it, and reptiles are still in small tubs all day long. 

here is animal aids version of the same event: Animal Aid text shown in blue

*REPTILE FAIRS - Dealers try it on at Redditch*

*1 September 2002*

The International Herpetological Society (I.H.S.), a small, amateur group of animal dealers and hobbyists, plans to stage a reptile fair in Redditch on Sunday 29 September 2002.

 I.H.S. fairs have been rejected by all of the local authorities they have approached in the past even though they have tried to run their fairs as 'breeders meetings', 'members-only meetings' or sales of 'personal pets' in an attempt to avoid legal restrictions on commercial animal trading.
The Society's last fair, at the end of April, took place in Bradford - see the letter from Bradford MDC. 


We have maintained throughout our campaign against one-day fairs that these events are illegal. This has now been borne out by yet another Local Authority who has investigated the I.H.S.' dealings thoroughly and is now of the opinion that bird and reptile fairs unlawful and have informed the I.H.S. that they should cease holding such events. 


Redditch Borough Council are aware of the event and we look forward to them taking firm action to prevent any animals being sold.


the following year, 2003, we see this, the halting of that show..

*REDDITCH COUNCIL WINS PRAISE FROM ANIMAL GROUPS*

*25 February 2003*

National animal protection groups, Animal Aid and the Captive Animals' Protection Society, are delighted that Redditch Council has voted against allowing the use of the Arrow Valley Social Club for future reptile fairs. At a full Council meeting yesterday evening, Councillors voted to uphold the recommendation from their Executive Committee that the Council-owned property should not be hired out to animal dealers.
Last year, on 29 September, an undercover investigator from the Captive Animals' Protection Society (CAPS) visited a reptile fair at the Arrow Valley Social Club, which was organised by the International Herpetological Society (I.H.S.) - an amateur group of dealers and hobbyists who are behind this latest application. The CAPS' team acquired videotaped evidence backed up by literature gathered on the day, which demonstrated that illegal commercial trading took place. Animal Aid sent this information to Redditch Borough Council's Legal Department along with a list of commercial dealers who were present on the day, together with their contact details. Animal Aid were then, however, disappointed to receive a letter claiming that the Council had "insufficient evidence to commence criminal proceedings" as Council Officers were only present for approximately three hours.
Said Animal Aid spokesperson *Elaine Toland*:"We commend the Council's decision. The outcome is obviously good news for the animals and regular users of the social club can breathe a sigh of relief. Even with the best intentions in the world, it's impossible to care for reptiles properly in captivity. According to US pet industry data, the majority of reptiles in captivity die within a year. In an artificial environment they also pose a significant risk to human health."​Animal Aid and CAPS are now concerned that the I.H.S. reptile group will now attempt to organise an underground fair, as they have before. Both groups appeal for any information particularly from venue managers in the area and urge them not to be coaxed into staging these types of events.



From 2001, again animal aid, this time they boast stopping 12 out of 15 shows that year

*ANIMAL AID CELEBRATE VICTORY FOR REPTILES*

*12 April 2001*

Animal Aid and the Captive Animals' Protection Society (CAPS) are triumphant after hearing that Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council have refused to allow a reptile fair to go ahead on 29 April.  Said Animal Aid spokesperson *Elaine Toland*:"We commend the council's decision and the outcome is obviously good news for the animals and regular users of the sports centre can breathe a sigh of relief. Even with the best intentions in the world, it's impossible to care for reptiles properly in captivity. According to US pet industry data, the majority of reptiles in captivity die within a year. In an artificial environment they also pose a significant risk to human health."​Walsall Council agreed not to license the fair as it would have been illegal under the Pet Animals Act 1951 to do so. Animal Aid wrote to the council at the end of January and enclosed details of a court case in Devon where magistrates ruled that animals should not be sold over stalls in a public place. Yesterday, after weeks of waiting for a decision, Animal Aid was told that the fair would be cancelled.
The Walsall fair was the second on the 2001 reptile calendar and the main event of the year in the Midlands. Last year, Animal Aid and the Captive Animals' Protection Society stopped 12 out of 15 reptile fairs taking place. This year the groups are working to build on their success in slowing down this vile trade in wildlife. According to RSPCA figures, over 90 per cent of reptiles in the pet trade are caught in the wild.
Reptile expert *Clifford Warwick* describes the trade as 'barbaric'. He says:"The cumulative stresses and abuses of capture, trade, transport and ignorant husbandry set the scene for the demise of a great many reptiles before they even get to their final destination with the public."​(more to come)


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## Nerys

and not to be outdone, CAPS from 2001 Walsall show

 Reptile fayres
Archive - October 2001
During the year CAPS has been working alongside Animal Aid - who like CAPS are a peaceful organisation - in campaigning against reptile fayres. Together we have achieved several victories where fayres were stopped from going ahead, including events planned in Stockport and Walsall. According to Animal Aid spokesperson, Elaine Toland, "Even with the best intentions in the world, it's impossible to care for reptiles properly in captivity. According to US pet industry data, the majority of reptiles in captivity die within a year. In an artificial environment they also pose a significant risk to human health."
The following photographs were taken at a reptile fayre in held in Walsall last year.
























back to 2002, and the norwich show. this show was again cancelled last year 2006.. why? anti pressure??

*REPTILE FAIR DIES A DEATH*

*24 September 2002*

A reptile fair took place on Sunday 22 September 2002 at Hellesdon High School in Norwich, despite vociferous opposition from the campaign group, Animal Aid. The group, however, is pleased that the event, which was accommodated in shoddy facilities, was poorly supported by traders who, in turn, were disappointed by low visitor attendance.
According to an estimate by an independent biologist, 2,000 to 3,000 animals were offered for sale and, as always at these events, there was little concern for animal welfare. 
Says *Elaine Toland* of Animal Aid:"Reptiles do not thrive in captivity - all that can be offered to them in an artificial environment is a basic life-support system which involves a finely controlled environment. At events such as these, the animals are denied even their basic requirements in terms of light, heat, space and ventilation. The reptiles suffer very high levels of stress and we can estimate from US pet industry data that the majority of these animals will die within a year."​Animal Aid has evidence gathered at the event of multiple violations of the Pet Animals Act 1951 and is also working with the police in investigating sales of threatened species.
Despite high profile warnings of potential salmonella risks, very poor hygiene measures were observed on the day. By allowing food to be provided, Hellesdon High School and Broadland District Council showed clear contempt for government guidelines aimed at reducing the risk of reptile-related disease.
Predictably, the council have said that they will not allow this event again. The Chief Executive, *Colin Bland* has said: "...if sales of animals as pets in a public place were taking place, all the Council would be able to do, under Section 2 of the Act, is to prosecute (after the event) the person carrying on the business of selling the animals as pets in a public place."​This was after the Council Leader, *Simon Woodbridge* expressed his view to the Chief Executive that:"...the fair organisers would have appeared to have under-informed owners of premises, resulting in permission being given to use the site in the first place. I consider it appropriate to send a circular to all parishes in the District to raise awareness to any such approach..."​2004 now, and Animal Aid again attack the IHS show - note the pics they are using...

*Broxbourne Council to crackdown on reptile dealers*

*12 July 2004*









*Animal Aid investigation reveals cruelty at illegal reptile fair*

Cheshunt, Herts - An Animal Aid investigator documented numerous animal welfare violations while secretly filming at an illegal reptile fair which took place at Broxbourne Civic Hall yesterday. The International Herpetological Society (IHS), organisers of the event, failed to apply to Broxbourne Borough Council for a licence under the Pet Animals Act, 1951 - a legal requirement - leaving the council unaware of the event until the last moment.
Although the reptile fair was billed as a 'members' only' event, a tactic often employed by disingenuous reptile dealers trying to circumnavigate the law, our investigator was allowed unrestricted entry without question. Video evidence taken inside shows animals crammed inside small cardboard take-away boxes with only a few small puncture holes for air. The boxes were frequently stacked two or three high reducing airflow even further. Others were kept in empty margarine tubs with no respite from the gazing public. Many of the traders had travelled for hours to and from the event, meaning some animals spent up to 12 hours in these appalling conditions.

Animal Aid alerted Broxbourne Council to the planned fair two days before the event and urged them to take immediate action to stop the event. Unfortunately, due to the short notice - another tactic regularly used by reptile dealers - the event went ahead. However, Broxbourne Council issued a statement the following day asserting that they will require a "full and thorough risk assessment to be carried out before any future events, with a view to preventing any such events that present a health risk to the public." As over 90% of reptiles carry Salmonella, it is unlikely that reptile fairs would meet these criteria.
Said Animal Aid spokesperson *Toni Vernelli*:"We commend the council's decision. The outcome is obviously good news for the animals and regular users of the Civic Hall can also breathe a sigh of relief. Even with the best intentions in the world, it's impossible to care for reptiles properly in captivity. According to US pet industry data, the majority of reptiles in captivity die within a year. In an artificial environment they also pose a significant risk to human health."​*Broxbourne Borough Council's reply to our complaint is reproduced below:*

Borough of Broxbourne,
Borough Offices, Bishops' College, 
Churchgate, Cheshunt, 
Waltham Cross, Hertfordshire EN8 9XE
02 September 2004
Dear Sir/Madam
*Re: International Herpetological Society - Breeders Meeting, Civic Hall Broxbourne 11th July 2004* 
Thank you for your recent email, the content of which have been noted.
This department became aware of the event on Thursday 8th July 2004, following notification from members of various animal rights organisations.
As a result of these notifications the event organiser was contacted to obtain further details especially with regards to the selling of animals and hygiene measures to prevent the risk of infection.
As you can appreciate, at such late notice, these details were only provided verbally. However our concerns relating to the above two issues were made known to the Leisure Department who is responsible for hiring the venue.
On this occasion the event went ahead. However please be assured that we have stressed the importance of early notification to this Department of similar events in the future so that a full and thorough risk assessment can be carried out, with a view to preventing any such events that present a health risk to the public.
Yours faithfully

Ms. F. Ekemezuma
Principal Environmental Health Officer


now, again and again, they make reference to "animals in cramped boxes" and tbh you ALL know, as well as i do, that an adult leo in a cricket tub, IS cramped, its bloody cramped tbh.. and the snakes are no better off in many cases..


CAPS again, this time from last year. 2006


*Pet fairs to be banned (again!) 
October 2006*

*The government has announced it will ban pet fairs - 23 years after they were first banned!*
On 10th October 2006, the government announced it will use the Animal Welfare Bill to ban the sale of animals at pet fairs. 
Since the late 1990s, CAPS has worked undercover to expose the trade in wild animals across the UK at pet fairs. These are one or two day events where animals, mostly birds and reptiles, are sold directly to the public.
Pet fairs were actually banned in 1983, when the Pet Animals Act was amended to prohibit the sale of animals to the public from stalls or markets. However, some local councils decided they would allow the sales to continue by giving the fair organiser a temporary pet shop licence. 
Acting as potential animal buyers, CAPS investigators have attended bird and reptile fairs around the country, secretly filming how the animals are housed and handled as well as the poor advice given to prospective buyers.
Some of the conditions exposed by CAPS include:
Snakes kept in small plastic tubs with no proper ventilation, heating, lighting or ability to exercise 
Birds kept in small, overcrowded cages, unable to spread their wings (illegal conditions but standard at fairs selling parrots) 
Wild caught and clearly stressed birds on sale 
Sick and dying animals 
Members of the public, including children, being able to handle reptiles without being told to wash their hands, putting them at risk of contracting salmonella 
The government had originally planned to legalise pet fairs under the Animal Welfare Bill but came under huge criticism from animal protection organisations and members of the House of Commons and House of Lords.
The announcement from animal welfare Minister Ben Bradshaw follows a Judicial Review in June 2006 which ruled that Stafford Borough Council should not have licensed a bird fair because of the Pet Animals Act amendment.
Exemptions to the new provisions will unfortunately allow the sale of some animals, such as fish, racing pigeons and poultry.
Commenting on the latest government announcement, CAPS said:
“This is great news and means that the government will finally enforce a law introduced 23 years ago. Pet fairs are an animal welfare tragedy that some local councils have turned a blind eye to despite overwhelming evidence provided by CAPS and others that not only are they illegal but they are also responsible for animal suffering.
“Legalising cruelty, which would have been the result if the government had allowed pet fairs, would make a mockery of the Animal Welfare Bill.”


and again, under the same pics as posted above, they say

*
These photos from a reptile fair show how snakes and spiders are held in small plastic containers.*​ 

the problem is, that if we want "fairs" to have a furture, we DO need to address the way the animals are held and displayed at them. what you do at home is one thing, what you do in front of the public is another matter.


ALL the shows this year, have been open admitance.. do you HONESTLY think the antis were not there?


tbh, there have been enough pics of the shows from members this year, that they would just use the pics on this forum alone to screw us all over again..


links from:



Search the Captive Animals' Protection Society
Pet fairs to be banned (again!)

Reptile fairs - undercover in Redditch

Help to stamp out illegal reptile and bird fairs


Animal Aid: Search results

Animal Aid: Broxbourne Council to crackdown on reptile dealers
Animal Aid: REPTILE BREEDERS - Under investigation

Animal Aid: REPTILE FAIRS - Dealers try it on at Redditch

Animal Aid: THE REPTILE TRADE




Nerys


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## jav07

Nerys said:


> thankfully i did not have a lot with me, and yes i did have measures i was using to cool them down.. yes people did leave early. my cresties were in a tank set up, not cricket boxes, so i was able to spray and sheild them, but as a result i did not sell any, you cannot sell what you cannot see
> 
> the heat was only a problem as the venue had a glass roof, there was no way of cooling it down..
> 
> see, some people had fans, but because reptiles do not sweat, a fan does not help them at all, it only helps the humans.
> 
> in reality, when the temp of the hall was going over 100f, there was no way for the sellers to help the animals, bar moving them into whatever shade they could find.
> 
> it was a bad choice of venue for the time of year the show was booked for.
> 
> from an antis point of veiw, keeping an adult animal (leo) in a cricket tub not even big enough for them to turn round in, would be used as propoganda against us. you may not like it (or me for saying it) but it IS the truth. show conditions need to be improved
> 
> Nerys


so when you told the organiser about your concerns what was his reply??


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## Nerys

that it was "out of his hands" and "an act of nature" and that they did open the doors...

*thinks* something like that anyway... basically that there was nothing he could have done about it.. 

oh yes, and that next year there would be blinds and air con installed in the hall..

i just think it was a piss poor choice of venue, someone should have, with so many years of running shows under their belt, realised that a hall with over head glass panels, would be at risk of getting like a greenhouse, given that the show was booked for the summer month of august. tbh a veteran show organiser should not need to be told that it's too hot.. he should anticipate and prepare for that as an eventuality. especially when he is holding his show in august!


forward thinking was what was _actually_ needed, there was nothing that could be done on the day, as all who where there found out. what was needed was some thought as to how the venue would cope on the day in different situtations (i.e if it was too cold, were enough power points available for heating and so on)

N


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## ratboy

I have to say, considering the amount of flak the Reptile Fan Club got from not having heat mats made available for every show entrant last year...

This is all very interesting reading.

The RFC did put it's hands up and admit mistakes were made though.


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## Snakes r grreat

I agree with Andy on this one, the sellers of the show should have just walked out. Yes there would have been a monetary loss, however, surely the health of the animals must come first, instead of money. Staying would only have given the anti's even more ammunition about shows, if they travel to most show's then surely they would have been there. 

As for the way animals are displayed, i always see a great varience in the way sellers do it. Most do use the plastic tubs to display, but i do see some sellers who go to great lengths to make the display as neat and well thought out as possible, where as many just turn up, get the tubs out and get them on the table as quickly as possible, so they can sit down and eat.

I do agree though that water should be available to all animals on display, surely it is one basic need that should be met?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*Question*

Leopard Geckos.

As a nocturnal creature would this species as robust as l am told it is, not suffer stress or actually enjoy being in a cricket tub for the duration of a show?

Would it not make for better sense to ;

1] Have a hide in a suitably sized box

2] Have an area in a show where upon it was perhaps darkened and possibly have a 'red light district' - which would also serve for the nocturnal species.

I know that if the animal is hidden it may not sell, but surely a display photograph or indeed a photograph catalogue would also assist?

Any body?

R


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## loulou

Ahh me and Nerys were just discussing this, I did also say the blacked out area with red lighting could be somethign like an all over gazebo or something similar may reduce sales but animals first sales second in my opinion. prices for this could be included in tables prices, or if you are luck you may have a venue with more rooms so a second room can be blacked out and have red lighting.

Any other ideas guys


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## Ally

I'm going to be giving the larger tub/hide/waterbowl/photo thing a go at Basildon - watch this space!


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## Snakes r grreat

Look forward to it Ally. :smile:


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## Andy

I wouldnt want to buy a reptile I cant see. I am not sure how you could display a reptile for sale without having it in plain view. If you have hides etc then wouldnt that stress the animal out even more having it whipped out from under its hide every time someone wants a look at it? I would say as long as its not too cramped and water is available if required and a bit of care taken over the temperature then i dont think any lasting damage will be done to the reptile. As for the people eating behind the stalls etc then yeah thats daft especially as the animal rights people are using the salmonella things as ammo.


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## LeeH

i think most of it is passing the blame onto someone else..
most of it can be solved due to common sense..if you think theyll be lack of hides bring them with you...if you think theyll be no waterbowls..bring them with you...the thing is they sell BOTTLED water at the shows for people to drink so use it for your reps..using your own stuff means you are prepared
most sellers ive seen if they are larger animals put them in canvas sacks..why not bring a really useful box with you and a large waterbowl.
its a two way thing IMO...you can't blame the sellers if you are not prepared yourselves...theres equipment there even so if they haven't bought a hide/bowl when the oppurtunities there then what can sellers do..people have got to think for themselves.
about lack of variety...you got to remember leos,corns etc are the most popular animal and most will be looking for them and you couldn't cater for all tastes really but isn't shows a way to get contacts too..most of the society members go to the shows who will know people who breed the stuff you might be after so having a speak to a few will get your answer and no other way will there be such a large amount of people who breed different things and personally i have seen wierd wonderful reptiles that you don't see very often but remained unsold as the people after them weren't there and it is true that most sites will not allow lists as it is seen as advertising and remember most breeders won't visit forums much so its all about just talking to people..you never know.
about handwashing..all the shows have had sinks to wash your hands or just buy yourself some handgel...i bet you pass an asda/boots on your travels there
about lack of caresheets..wouldn't the most ideal thing is to read up on the animal before buying.....doesn't take a lot considering we are using the internet to type on this very forum


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## Trice

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Leopard Geckos.
> 
> As a nocturnal creature would this species as robust as l am told it is, not suffer stress or actually enjoy being in a cricket tub for the duration of a show?
> 
> Would it not make for better sense to ;
> 
> 1] Have a hide in a suitably sized box
> 
> 2] Have an area in a show where upon it was perhaps darkened and possibly have a 'red light district' - which would also serve for the nocturnal species.
> 
> I know that if the animal is hidden it may not sell, but surely a display photograph or indeed a photograph catalogue would also assist?
> 
> Any body?
> 
> R


Probably a stupid idea. But.. Maybe tinted (inside out) on the tubs would be helpful? as the reptiles wouldn't see out. but considering we have enough light. We may be able to see in? Not sure if it'd work or not. Sure i got some car tint laying around somewhere, might give it a go tomorrow lol.



Snakes r grreat said:


> I do agree though that water should be available to all animals on display, surely it is one basic need that should be met?


I agree that water would be a massive need for reptiles at shows. Especially in the summer. It gets too hot for anyone! the poor buggers must get dehydrated unbelievably quick.



ratboy said:


> I have to say, considering the amount of flak the Reptile Fan Club got from not having heat mats made available for every show entrant last year...
> 
> This is all very interesting reading.
> 
> The RFC did put it's hands up and admit mistakes were made though.


Why not use disposable heat mats? Surely that would be the easier way of doing things?


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## TSKA Rory Matier

*so...*

Well these are good ideas, and are they easily adapted by the shows organizers and equally as much can or would the sellers of the shows be likely to take them on board?

R


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## toyah

Reptile shows do not happen. The meetings organised are not about showing reptiles - a show is display, exhibition, competition. What we actually have are organised free-for-all pet shops.

All the outsider sees is bunches of animals in tiny boxes being sold to anyone who comes along with cash. Care sheets, water, a hide, humane temperatures, responsibility on behalf of the sellers and buyers, all seem to be optional. The only compulsory thing is a price tag. As much as I enjoy meeting people, chatting, seeing different species, maybe buying a few things, I would welcome banning them in their present form as all they do is pull the fancy down in the eyes of outsiders.

In theory an exhibition where people have displays and purchases are arranged later is all well and good, but from seeing where that has been attempted in other situations, it would not work. It may work if pre-arranged sales are allowed - so an exhibitor would, for example, book in with the organisers the five snakes I've bought from them, and they would be labelled for me. I could then go to the exhibition, speak to the breeder, and pick my animals up to take home. No on-the-day sales, and the animals are not dragged out to make a long journey twice in quick succession.

Exhibition type events in other fancies, by the way, tend to be poorly attended. Part of the attraction of reptile sales days and shows in other fancies is that most of the day is unstructured once animals are benched or judged, and that leaves time for the most important part of the day - chatting to other fanciers! Meeting new people, seeing old friends who you might not bump into too often, and generally establishing a strong sense of community that holds the fancy together. It's interesting to listen to a talk but not if you've heard a very similar talk last time, or if it's on a species you have no interest in.

Although I do feel that despite their failings and really obvious mistakes, the CSFC had the right idea and something along those lines will end up being the focal point and maturation of the fancy. This will bring us into line with really every other type of animal kept, and while the antis do not particularly like selective breeding and competition, the general public are more accepting of showing as a traditional eccentric British hobby rather than the free-for-all sales the antis picket against right now.

In the meantime, I feel minimum standards need to be adhered to:

1. Everything needs to be established. A minimum size/age for geckos. Snakes should be well started and have had X number of feeds unassisted and have shed Y number of times before being offered for sale at a show.

2. All animals must have access to water during the show. Where appropriate, they should have access to food.

3. Tub sizes must be appropriate (and for lizards - that means enough space to move in - I agree with Nerys re: leos in cricket tubs!) and include a hide or dark area for the animal to retreat to.

4. Appropriate temperatures must be provides. This can be a thermostatted heat mat, or cool mats. If an area of the hall becomes too hot, then the organisers must immediately take action to relocate any sellers located in that area (I can guarantee someone will have an infra-red thermometer at a reptile show - use it!).

5. All animals must be sold with care sheets and appropriate guidance must be given to purchasers, even if they insist they already know! A system such as some pet shops use (coast to coast and snakes n adders stick out to me) where care sheets/sales sheets must be signed by both parties and retained would be ideal to ensure this is stuck to.


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## SiUK

I like the idea of a red light district, would it be like being back in Amsterdam?


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## ratboy

Excellent post Toyah.

A lot of the problem with the RFC (CSFC) show... or rather extending it... is that reptiles do not really lend themselves to judging competitions. Many species ( the majority ? ) like to hide away and wait until dark or dusk to come out and hunt... and many certainly prefer to be left alone. This does severely limit the number of species you can do... Let alone the logistics of providing comfortable environments for different species in the same venue.


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## toyah

ratboy said:


> This does severely limit the number of species you can do... Let alone the logistics of providing comfortable environments for different species in the same venue.


It does. I think judging competitions are only ever going to be very popular for a small number of popular, hardy, easily bred species (if you look at that statement it's true for mammals - not-so-popular, less hardy, harder to breed species don't have shows!).

Then again, if any of these species are brought to a show for sale then the seller needs to provide comfortable environments for them in the venue. So either it's possible, or selling these more difficult species at shows is not ever ethical, and unacceptable for the animal's wellbeing.


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## ratboy

toyah said:


> It does. I think judging competitions are only ever going to be very popular for a small number of popular, hardy, easily bred species (if you look at that statement it's true for mammals - not-so-popular, less hardy, harder to breed species don't have shows!).
> 
> Then again, if any of these species are brought to a show for sale then the seller needs to provide comfortable environments for them in the venue. So either it's possible, or selling these more difficult species at shows is not ever ethical, and unacceptable for the animal's wellbeing.


You could combine the two with a large venue, a judging show for the popular hardy species combined with an exhibition.


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## SiUK

ratboy said:


> You could combine the two with a large venue, a judging show for the popular hardy species combined with an exhibition.


The british tarantula society do shows for various tarantulas like best in show, best African and so on, there shows have been running 18 years and I think they have been doing the showing for a fair few of them.


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## ratboy

toyah said:


> So either it's possible, or selling these more difficult species at shows is not ever ethical, and unacceptable for the animal's wellbeing.


Totally agree. As said before, my opinion is that the animals should be left behind and the buyer can buy from photographs, then collect the animal from you. That way, the animal only has one journey. This is the age of the internet. There is nothing stopping sellers having someone at home with a web-cam and showing the animal on their laptop at the show.


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## toyah

ratboy said:


> You could combine the two with a large venue, a judging show for the popular hardy species combined with an exhibition.


I think that sounds like a fabulous idea, and one that would really work.

As long as the show centered around the judging and exhibition areas, sales could be allowed too, as long as they were not the main focal point. Perhaps a show and exhibition could be opened to everyone, and heavily advertised to the public, with a separate area where selling is limited to club members/exhibitors, and buying limited to club members only? That would keep most people happy, and be a much more involved and presentable image for our fancy to give to outsiders.


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