# TV prog on BBC1, 7.30pm Monday 30th Nov.



## Alfonzo

Hey everyone...I don't often venture in here!

Just thought ppl in the east mids might be interested in watching Inside Out next monday night, features a piece by Mark O'Shea discussing the dangers of how easy it is to obtain venomous snakes these days.

I don't know if I agree or disagree with the sentiment, but he'll be speaking with venomous keepers (both licensed and unlicensed) and it looks like it could be informative and interesting to watch. 

Cheers
Al.


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## stuartdouglas

Segments of that were filmed as this year's Houten Snake Day


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## slippery42

stuartdouglas said:


> Segments of that were filmed as this year's Houten Snake Day


Might see some of us in the background as well as a few faces we know being interviewed!


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## slippery42

It looks like its only on in the midlands can anyone confirm that its only a regional program and not being shown nationally?

Mark are you out there?


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## Alfonzo

I thought it was houten, he mentioned in a trail for it that he was in amsterdam about to visit one of europes largest reptile shows (I know houten isnt in amsterdam, but what the hey?!) I think it may only be regional unfortunately. I think its relevant across the country though, so should be shown nationally really


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## SiUK

if you have Sky you can watch the regional channels anyway I believe


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## PDR

It is going to be on the “East Midlands” version:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007tj7z
Monday, 19:30 on BBC One
*30/11/2009*
*Dangerous pets for sale.*

Snake and reptile expert Mark O'Shea investigates the rising popularity of dangerous wild animals as pets. It's about to get easier to keep your very own pet viper or tarantula. But what does this mean for animal welfare and public safety? Inside Out travels to a reptile fair in Holland to find out where our exotic pets are coming from and whether controls are working.


Here is the full listing for all areas:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/


I have a pretty good idea of Mark’s thoughts on the subject but let’s wait and see.


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## Crownan

Why on earth would that be just a regional program?


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## wildlifewarrior

I might be wrong but wasnt there someone on here asking for DWA keepers to come forward for a TV program on venomous snakes a few months ago?


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## slippery42

Should make an interesting watch but I feel flak and trouble brwing for all of us and not just us who keep venomous species!

Anyway since when were hot snakes pets?


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## Alfonzo

the intro to it at the end of this weeks episode suggested an anti stance - that is...I know that Mr O'Shea is not anti the hobby at all, but he almost certainly is pro responsible keeping. The presenters' tone and choice of phrasing didn't sound great however. It looks like it may be a case of having to cut through the nonsense and media hype, that is bound to be present as it almost always is when it comes to this aspect of the hobby. I share the feeling that it may raise trouble though, at least until the next 'moral panic' is raised!


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## PDR

slippery42 said:


> Should make an interesting watch but I feel flak and trouble brwing for all of us and not just us who keep venomous species!
> 
> *Anyway since when were hot snakes pets*?


Well they are sold in pet shops aren’t they!


Which raises more questions:

Should pet shops really be selling venomous snakes when there is such a limited market?
Worse still should pet shops be allowed to keep venomous snakes on the premises as a kind of mascot or attraction with no intension of ever selling?
I mean if the local pet shop (selling puppies and kittens) kept a lion on display to draw customers there would be an *uproar *:whistling2:

PS, I’m not saying pet shops shouldn’t supply venomous. I’m just raising questions that I believe are valid.


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## Genseric

Well I myself am of the opinion that Venomous species should not be sold as pets... or with that insinuation. Unfortunately that would be too hard to enforce here, and so I think a bit of self regulation is in order... I know it is something I will be talking about over here at some point... and if it can be done well, then a link up with those interested in GB should be aimed for.

I think that most people I talk to agree that DWAL is a good thing if implemented and used properly... and at the minute I think it is being under used by people who are under trained, if trained at all. (Not all are like this, but I would venture a guess that a lot are).

I will see if I can get it on Virgin.. I am pretty sure we can though.


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## wildlifewarrior

PDR said:


> Well they are sold in pet shops aren’t they!
> 
> 
> Which raises more questions:
> 
> Should pet shops really be selling venomous snakes when there is such a limited market?
> Worse still should pet shops be allowed to keep venomous snakes on the premises as a kind of mascot or attraction with no intension of ever selling?
> I mean if the local pet shop (selling puppies and kittens) kept a lion on display to draw customers there would be an *uproar *:whistling2:
> 
> PS, I’m not saying pet shops shouldn’t supply venomous. I’m just raising questions that I believe are valid.


I can completely see your point, I know you need to apply for DWA but alot of sales in petshops are made from impulse buying.
Wasnt it harrods that was selling baby lions before the DWA act came into place.


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## Alfonzo

wildlifewarrior said:


> Wasnt it harrods that was selling baby lions before the DWA act came into place.


Yeah, 'Christian' the lion became somewhat famous after a channel for documentary a while back, you can still find clips on youtube! I would think most ppl agree that DWAL is beneficial and necessary. For me, fear on its own is enough to stop me considering getting venemous animals just yet, I try my hardest to avoid getting bitten even by the little non venemous animals I have.


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## ViperLover

PDR said:


> Well they are sold in pet shops aren’t they!
> 
> 
> Which raises more questions:
> 
> Should pet shops really be selling venomous snakes when there is such a limited market?
> Worse still should pet shops be allowed to keep venomous snakes on the premises as a kind of mascot or attraction with no intension of ever selling?
> I mean if the local pet shop (selling puppies and kittens) kept a lion on display to draw customers there would be an *uproar *:whistling2:
> 
> PS, I’m not saying pet shops shouldn’t supply venomous. I’m just raising questions that I believe are valid.


 
Good point.

But if the purchaser has a valid DWA Lisence, then who's to say that they can't purchase?


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## ViperLover

slippery42 said:


> Should make an interesting watch but I feel flak and trouble brwing for all of us and not just us who keep venomous species!
> 
> *Anyway since when were hot snakes pets?*


 
Any wild animal isn't a pet....Collectable species is a better word for it. Most people see "Pets" as cute, cuddly animals that are harmless....When a venomous snake is concidered as a pet, it gives a false sense of security to those who think that pets are only the cute and cuddly which can lead to a dangerous situation if one decides to purchase due to those beliefs and thoughts.

That also includes large constricters, but that's another topic completely and the topic should be left alone.


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## ViperLover

Sky viewers can see this on the channel E Mids....Browse for it on you're sky guide.

Mines set to record. incase I forget it's on.


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## leecb0

i do think councils have a roll to play, i can name two LA's close to me that wont issue DWAL this by definition will promote unlicenced keeping of venomous snakes. I, proberbly like others, have been contacted on here by an unlicenced keeper asking for help in finding snakes although he proberbly is a experienced and responsible keeper, i would not want to get involved, but nodoubt someone will and has done allready as he allready keeps them. most of the petshops i know to sell DWA animals allways ask for your licence which is a responsible thing to do but not as far as am aware a requirement by law


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## ViperLover

leecb0 said:


> i do think councils have a roll to play, i can name two LA's close to me that wont issue DWAL this by definition will promote unlicenced keeping of venomous snakes. I, proberbly like others, have been contacted on here by an unlicenced keeper asking for help in finding snakes although he proberbly is a experienced and responsible keeper, i would not want to get involved, but nodoubt someone will and has done allready as he allready keeps them. most of the petshops i know to sell DWA animals allways ask for your licence which is a responsible thing to do but not as far as am aware a requirement by law


 
If it's not a legal requirement, then it damned well should be!

Unlisenced keepers only have theirselves to blame when they get caught, have their animals taken off of them and destroyed and are issued with a huge fine, or worse. Thats my opinion, but as you said...If the councils won't issue the DWAL, Then they aren't helping the problem of preventing unlisenced keepers.

It's common sense if you are in an area where the council won't issue DWA, either move to an area that does...or dont keep them in the first place!


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> Good point.
> 
> But if the purchaser has a valid DWA Lisence, then who's to say that they can't purchase?


It is obvious if a person has a DWAL then they are entitled to go out and purchase venomous snakes. The question I raised was is a pet shop the most suitable place to be supplying / stocking or selling venomous snakes.
In the past people bought stock from large, specialist animal dealers who supplied Zoos, Safari Parks and scientific establishments.


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## slippery42

Ive said openly that if a keeper has the experience and skills and has the ability to set up a safe "hot room" etc etc there is no reason (other than some councils are halfwits) for being refused.

They cannot legally state "no DWA here!

I recently contacted a Local authority on this very subject as I was informed by a friend that his licensing department had stated that was the case.

The initial conversation was that they would never grant a DWAL, I then informed them that I had one for another area and would be moving to their area and that my set up would be exactly the same.

Guess what......they backed down


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## ViperLover

slippery42 said:


> Ive said openly that if a keeper has the experience and skills and has the ability to set up a safe "hot room" etc etc there is no reason (other than some councils are halfwits) for being refused.
> 
> They cannot legally state "no DWA here!
> 
> I recently contacted a Local authority on this very subject as I was informed by a friend that his licensing department had stated that was the case.
> 
> The initial conversation was that they would never grant a DWAL, I then informed them that I had one for another area and would be moving to their area and that my set up would be exactly the same.
> 
> Guess what......they backed down


Thats very true.

I feel very much the same, if somebody is dedicated into converting a room, specialised in housing these animals then why refuse them the permit to do things above board?

However...If they aren't willing to spend a bit of money in making safe keeping conditions for these animals, then by all means refuse them the lisence.

I am sure if you prove that you can do things responsibly, and the council still won't comply....then it can become an official legal matter and a lawyer can be spoken to.


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## leecb0

slippery42 said:


> Ive said openly that if a keeper has the experience and skills and has the ability to set up a safe "hot room" etc etc there is no reason (other than some councils are halfwits) for being refused.
> 
> They cannot legally state "no DWA here!
> 
> I recently contacted a Local authority on this very subject as I was informed by a friend that his licensing department had stated that was the case.
> 
> The initial conversation was that they would never grant a DWAL, I then informed them that I had one for another area and would be moving to their area and that my set up would be exactly the same.
> 
> 
> Guess what......they backed down


:notworthy: good on yer mate, i think its a fear of the uknown and instead of investigating the facts about responsible keeping they just say NO.:bash:
As for pet shops selling DWA my friend owns a petshop and deals with DWA but he wont sell to unlicenced and he keeps them in a seperate room thet the public have no access to.


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## paulrimmer69

Alfonzo said:


> Hey everyone...I don't often venture in here!
> 
> Just thought ppl in the east mids might be interested in watching Inside Out next monday night, features a piece by Mark O'Shea discussing the dangers of how easy it is to obtain venomous snakes these days.
> 
> I don't know if I agree or disagree with the sentiment, but he'll be speaking with venomous keepers (both licensed and unlicensed) and it looks like it could be informative and interesting to watch.
> 
> Cheers
> Al.


omg they told us this wasnt going to be aired until new year!


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## salvatoruk

slippery42 said:


> Might see some of us in the background as well as a few faces we know being interviewed!


I feel sorry for anyone that sees me wandering around in the background at Houten... those that were there who saw my hung over 1 hours sleep in 2 days face will understand! Unless it was filmed after I got my Popeia nebularis, then I'll have my crazed smile on :2thumb:


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## southwest vipers

slippery42 said:


> It looks like its only on in the midlands can anyone confirm that its only a regional program and not being shown nationally?
> 
> Mark are you out there?


It was filmed for the BBC and I am the one doing the interview with Mark O'shea. It is only a brief talk highlighting the ability to be able to but dwa snakes at the euro expos and then bring them into the UK unlicenced. The purpose of the reform is to make the licencing procedure easier to comply with, not easier to qualify for. This reform makes for a more successful prosecution as the defendant has little excuse for not complying. Reading through some of the post on this and other forums, most people have no idea why the act has been reformed. Simply, it is to force you to comply. If you dont, then you will be prosecuted, and successfuly as the courts have the reformed act to refer to. The current fine is a band 2. This means £2000 per charge. The case will only be heard in a magistrates court and not a crown court and the offence isn't a jailable offence on UK mainland. I am speaking from experience, I was prosecuted 8 times for the same offence over a 13 month period in 2000/2001. Fine was £30,000 and costs were shared @ £150,000. Fortunately I was cleared on a technicality and the prosecution withdrew all charges. 
I shall plead the fifth ammendment to any futher accusations.
Any one wishing to discuss further should PM me..in confidence.


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## ViperLover

Is that £2,000 per DWA snake?

WOW!

PM me, I'd like to know more please. If I am gonna apply for a DWA in the far future, then a heads up on the legal side is a good start.


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## ViperLover

southwest vipers said:


> It was filmed for the BBC and I am the one doing the interview with Mark O'shea. It is only a brief talk highlighting the ability to be able to but dwa snakes at the euro expos and then bring them into the UK unlicenced. The purpose of the reform is to make the licencing procedure easier to comply with, not easier to qualify for. This reform makes for a more successful prosecution as the defendant has little excuse for not complying. Reading through some of the post on this and other forums, most people have no idea why the act has been reformed. Simply, it is to force you to comply. If you dont, then you will be prosecuted, and successfuly as the courts have the reformed act to refer to. The current fine is a band 2. This means £2000 per charge. The case will only be heard in a magistrates court and not a crown court and the offence isn't a jailable offence on UK mainland. I am speaking from experience, I was prosecuted 8 times for the same offence over a 13 month period in 2000/2001. Fine was £30,000 and costs were shared @ £150,000. Fortunately I was cleared on a technicality and the prosecution withdrew all charges.
> I shall plead the fifth ammendment to any futher accusations.
> Any one wishing to discuss further should PM me..in confidence.


 
Please PM me, cheers!


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## pythondave82

southwest vipers said:


> It was filmed for the BBC and I am the one doing the interview with Mark O'shea. It is only a brief talk highlighting the ability to be able to but dwa snakes at the euro expos and then bring them into the UK unlicenced. The purpose of the reform is to make the licencing procedure easier to comply with, not easier to qualify for. This reform makes for a more successful prosecution as the defendant has little excuse for not complying. Reading through some of the post on this and other forums, most people have no idea why the act has been reformed. Simply, it is to force you to comply. If you dont, then you will be prosecuted, and successfuly as the courts have the reformed act to refer to. The current fine is a band 2. This means £2000 per charge. The case will only be heard in a magistrates court and not a crown court and the offence isn't a jailable offence on UK mainland. I am speaking from experience, I was prosecuted 8 times for the same offence over a 13 month period in 2000/2001. Fine was £30,000 and costs were shared @ £150,000. Fortunately I was cleared on a technicality and the prosecution withdrew all charges.
> I shall plead the fifth ammendment to any futher accusations.
> Any one wishing to discuss further should PM me..in confidence.


You are correct Mark.


I did a brief talk - as far as Mark advised me, the show can only be a posotive outcome.

Cheers,

Dave


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## paulrimmer69

southwest vipers said:


> It was filmed for the BBC and I am the one doing the interview with Mark O'shea. It is only a brief talk highlighting the ability to be able to but dwa snakes at the euro expos and then bring them into the UK unlicenced. The purpose of the reform is to make the licencing procedure easier to comply with, not easier to qualify for. This reform makes for a more successful prosecution as the defendant has little excuse for not complying. Reading through some of the post on this and other forums, most people have no idea why the act has been reformed. Simply, it is to force you to comply. If you dont, then you will be prosecuted, and successfuly as the courts have the reformed act to refer to. The current fine is a band 2. This means £2000 per charge. The case will only be heard in a magistrates court and not a crown court and the offence isn't a jailable offence on UK mainland. I am speaking from experience, I was prosecuted 8 times for the same offence over a 13 month period in 2000/2001. Fine was £30,000 and costs were shared @ £150,000. Fortunately I was cleared on a technicality and the prosecution withdrew all charges.
> I shall plead the fifth ammendment to any futher accusations.
> Any one wishing to discuss further should PM me..in confidence.


they interviewed a few people there, will be interesting to see which 1s they show lol


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## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> they interviewed a few people there, will be interesting to see which 1s they show lol


 
If anybody has a capture card, would be nice to record it and stick it on youtube.


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## southwest vipers

pythondave82 said:


> You are correct Mark.
> 
> 
> I did a brief talk - as far as Mark advised me, the show can only be a posotive outcome.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dave


 Those who are applying for DWA licences under the newly reformed act have it easy.They will only have to conform to the criteria set out by their LA who would have to refer to the newly reformed act to process the application. They will not have to face a complicated barage of quests to undertake. The application process will become a "box ticking " exercise. I'm glad I did it the hard way. That's how I built up a good relationship with my licencing officer.


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## ViperLover

southwest vipers said:


> Those who are applying for DWA licences under the newly reformed act have it easy.They will only have to conform to the criteria set out by their LA who would have to refer to the newly reformed act to process the application. They will not have to face a complicated barage of quests to undertake. The application process will become a "box ticking " exercise. I'm glad I did it the hard way. That's how I built up a good relationship with my licencing officer.


 
I am not satisfied with an easy way....If I am going to apply for a DWA, I want atleast some sort of challenge....A challenge that proves myself and helps me gain experience along the way, instead of ticking boxes, sending it in the post and waiting for a confirmation! (Bit more complicated then that, but you get my point)


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## paulrimmer69

james your challenge will be getting in the position to apply for a dwa


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## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> james your challenge will be getting in the position to apply for a dwa


 
Thats the biggest challenge of them all.

All comes in good time.


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## southwest vipers

paulrimmer69 said:


> james your challenge will be getting in the position to apply for a dwa


 After reading the bull**it that he's put on here lately, he'll be disqualified before he starts.


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## ViperLover

southwest vipers said:


> After reading the bull**it that he's put on here lately, he'll be disqualified before he starts.


 
:devil:


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## paulrimmer69

well thats defo not gona help him when it comes to finding an experienced keeper to help him, was more thinking about the fact that hes 16 and still living at home with parents who wont let him keep even a royal, which means getting to the stage in life when you own your own home and have the finances to build a hot room, defo not a cheap hobby!


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## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> well thats defo not gona help him when it comes to finding an experienced keeper to help him, was more thinking about the fact that hes 16 and still living at home with parents who wont let him keep even a royal, which means getting to the stage in life when you own your own home and have the finances to build a hot room, defo not a cheap hobby!


 
I am under=going talks with my mum to let me get a King...(Snake, not Cobra for all the perdantic haters)

She even agreed to go to the pet shop with me on Friday. She needs to understand that I want to become a hobbyist, and possibly have a career in this field.


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## paulrimmer69

its nice to see that you have ambition james and hopefully your mum will let you get a kingsnake so you can actually own a snake, just dont forget there are a million and one things that could happen between now and you having your own home and a steady job so dont get too carried away with the whole dwa idea just yet


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## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> its nice to see that you have ambition james and hopefully your mum will let you get a kingsnake so you can actually own a snake, just dont forget there are a million and one things that could happen between now and you having your own home and a steady job so dont get too carried away with the whole dwa idea just yet


 
I think she's more scared of me getting bitten...

I say to her time and time again not to worry....If a Kingsnake bites me, I'll still be around the next day. If a critter with a big pointy end nailes me, then we'll see....I think thats what scares her the most, my ambition to go into Herpetology, she knows what the deal is with Herpetologists. I am trying to ease her mind, and try to teach her that not all snakes are evil, ugly monsters who will kill me.

Its slowly working....I need to start showing more willingness to do stuff....Simple things like walking the dog more, and feeding him more...It will show I am capable of looking after an animal with greater needs like a snake.

I love my dog, and I love my snakes...I also love my family which is why I am choosing to lay off DWA untill I atleast know how to clean a cage without getting hit by something non-venomous, or basic husbandry, knowing how venom works, knowing bite protocals, knowing the dangerous and hazards in a snake room etc etc etc.

As Paul Rowley correctly pointed out, getting bit isnt the only danger. Even when the cages are locked shut, the air can also be hazardous. I am glad he said that....As I became more aware of the risk factors


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## slippery42

southwest vipers said:


> Those who are applying for DWA licences under the newly reformed act have it easy.They will only have to conform to the criteria set out by their LA who would have to refer to the newly reformed act to process the application. They will not have to face a complicated barage of quests to undertake. The application process will become a "box ticking " exercise. I'm glad I did it the hard way. That's how I built up a good relationship with my licencing officer.


That how I feel as I have a great relationship with my local authority a very healthy two way thing!


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> If anybody has a capture card, would be nice to record it and stick it on youtube.


Not everyone wants footage of them being posted on U-Tube :bash:


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## ViperLover

PDR said:


> Not everyone wants footage of them being posted on U-Tube :bash:


 
If it's on National Television, then why not?


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> I think she's more scared of me getting bitten...
> 
> I say to her time and time again not to worry....If a Kingsnake bites me, I'll still be around the next day. If a critter with a big pointy end nailes me, then we'll see....I think thats what scares her the most, my ambition to go into Herpetology, she knows what the deal is with Herpetologists. I am trying to ease her mind, and try to teach her that not all snakes are evil, ugly monsters who will kill me.
> 
> Its slowly working....I need to start showing more willingness to do stuff....*Simple things like walking the dog more, and feeding him more...It will show I am capable of looking after an animal with greater needs like a snake.*
> 
> I love my dog, and I love my snakes...I also love my family which is why I am choosing to lay off DWA untill I atleast know how to clean a cage without getting hit by something non-venomous, or basic husbandry, knowing how venom works, knowing bite protocals, knowing the dangerous and hazards in a snake room etc etc etc.
> 
> As Paul Rowley correctly pointed out, getting bit isnt the only danger. Even when the cages are locked shut, the air can also be hazardous. I am glad he said that....As I became more aware of the risk factors


*Well that just about says it all!!!!!!!!!!* 
If you can’t even help look after a dog, without being told, (which let’s face it is one of the simplest ever animals to care for), how the hell are you going to care for even the easiest and most robust harmless snake species ?
And you say (in other posts) that you want to keep various delicate venomous species that can be a challenge for even the most experienced keepers :whistling2:
Your parents know you better than anyone and they have their reservations!


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> If it's on National Television, then why not?


If you knew anything about film work you would know that you have to sign a form to say that the TV company can use footage of you.... 
Copying stuff and posting it on U-tube is Illegal unless you have the permission to do so.
I’m sure Mark O’Shea would not be happy about someone posting it on U-tube without asking him first.


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## ViperLover

PDR said:


> If you knew anything about film work you would know that you have to sign a form to say that the TV company can use footage of you....
> Copying stuff and posting it on U-tube is Illegal unless you have the permission to do so.
> I’m sure Mark O’Shea would not be happy about someone posting it on U-tube without asking him first.


 
Thats fair enough..I personally won't post it, I was just wondering whether someone would.


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## ViperLover

PDR said:


> *Well that just about says it all!!!!!!!!!!*
> If you can’t even help look after a dog, without being told, (which let’s face it is one of the simplest ever animals to care for), how the hell are you going to care for even the easiest and most robust harmless snake species ?
> And you say (in other posts) that you want to keep various delicate venomous species that can be a challenge for even the most experienced keepers :whistling2:
> Your parents know you better than anyone and they have their reservations!


 
I help feed the Dog more regular now...It'll work in my favour. Just got in from walking him....I'm knackered!


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## Tehanu

ViperLover said:


> she knows what the deal is with Herpetologists.


What is the deal with Herpetologists???


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## ViperLover

Saedcantas said:


> What is the deal with Herpetologists???


The animals one can work with, and the risk factors involved. She knows if I ever became a Herpetologist, I would try to work with venomous snakes....So she knows the deal....She doesn;t know a great deal, but she does know this:

If I screw up, I may not make it.

Which is why she worrys.


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## paulrimmer69

james have you ever read the book 'journey to the centre of the earth'?


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## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> james have you ever read the book 'journey to the centre of the earth'?


 
Can't say I have.


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## Moglet

Baaaarghhhahahahahahahaha


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## terciopelo_dave

southwest vipers said:


> It was filmed for the BBC and I am the one doing the interview with Mark O'shea. It is only a brief talk highlighting the ability to be able to but dwa snakes at the euro expos and then bring them into the UK unlicenced. The purpose of the reform is to make the licencing procedure easier to comply with, not easier to qualify for. This reform makes for a more successful prosecution as the defendant has little excuse for not complying. Reading through some of the post on this and other forums, most people have no idea why the act has been reformed. Simply, it is to force you to comply. If you dont, then you will be prosecuted, and successfuly as the courts have the reformed act to refer to. The current fine is a band 2. This means £2000 per charge. The case will only be heard in a magistrates court and not a crown court and the offence isn't a jailable offence on UK mainland. I am speaking from experience, I was prosecuted 8 times for the same offence over a 13 month period in 2000/2001. Fine was £30,000 and costs were shared @ £150,000. Fortunately I was cleared on a technicality and the prosecution withdrew all charges.
> I shall plead the fifth ammendment to any futher accusations.
> Any one wishing to discuss further should PM me..in confidence.


 Were you the keeper on the trailer? If so, weren't you worried that appearing on a tv program would leave you recognisable?


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## pythondave82

*After speaking to Mark O'Shea*

All,

I have spoken to Mark and he was as surprised as we were that tarantulas were mentioned on the BBC schedule site.
He said he would contact the Inside Out production team and flag this up, in the hopes of getting it corrected  and they confirmed it will be taken down from immediate effect.  


So I can confirm the Inside Out (East Midlands) item on the DWA next Monday has nothing to do with tarantulas, which we all know are not even on the DWA. The item is  an even-handed look at the DWA in general and how it all began with big cats, and how it is now administered with regard to venomous snakes in particular, and what effects the forthcoming changes will have on the keeping of them in the UK. Interviews were done with a number of venomous snake keepers, both in Houten and at home in the UK, including one unlicenced keeper whose identity was protected, as well as with Dr Jim Collins, the Government advisor and wildlife law expert who has assisted many DWA licence holders in dealings with their local authorities. 


Originally the film was due to be broadcasted in early 2010 but a change in the schedules meant it was brought forward to Monday 30 November  and will aired on Inside Out East Midlands.


We probably all agree there are problems with the DWA, especially with the differing fees charged by different councils across the country. 
Hopefully the changes in the legislation will improve the situation and make things fairer for us all.


Mark says there should be no need to "don the tin helmets and run for the shelters", especially if you are legal!


----------



## ViperLover

pythondave82 said:


> All,
> 
> I have spoken to Mark and he was as surprised as we were that tarantulas were mentioned on the BBC schedule site.
> He said he would contact the Inside Out production team and flag this up, in the hopes of getting it corrected and they confirmed it will be taken down from immediate effect.
> 
> 
> So I can confirm the Inside Out (East Midlands) item on the DWA next Monday has nothing to do with tarantulas, which we all know are not even on the DWA.The item is an even-handed look at the DWA in general and how it all began with big cats, and how it is now administered with regard to venomous snakes in particular, and what effects the forthcoming changes will have on the keeping of them in the UK. Interviews were done with a number of venomous snake keepers, both in Houten and at home in the UK, including one unlicenced keeper whose identity was protected, as well as with Dr Jim Collins, the Government advisor and wildlife law expert who has assisted many DWA licence holders in dealings with their local authorities.
> 
> 
> Originally the film was due to be broadcasted in early 2010 but a change in the schedules meant it was brought forward to Monday 30 November and will aired on Inside Out East Midlands.
> 
> 
> We probably all agree there are problems with the DWA, especially with the differing fees charged by different councils across the country.
> Hopefully the changes in the legislation will improve the situation and make things fairer for us all.
> 
> 
> Mark says there should be no need to "don the tin helmets and run for the shelters", especially if you are legal!


This has no immediate affect on me specifically, but good information to know. Cheers Dave.

By the way, could you please thank Mark for coming to my thread and giving me some helpful information on my behalf. 

Thanks a lot,

JM


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> The animals one can work with, and the risk factors involved. *She knows if I ever became a Herpetologist*, I would try to *work with venomous snakes*....So she knows the deal....She doesn;t know a great deal, but she does know this:
> 
> If I screw up, I may not make it.
> 
> Which is why she worrys.


James, I assume you are talking about being a Professional Herpetologist, someone who is *paid a salary* *to work with reptiles and amphibians*. And then going a step further to specialize with venomous snakes? If so have you actually stopped for a moment to consider the odds?

You have far better odds of winning millions on the lottery (then you could set up your own Herpetarium).

*These jobs are very rare and there is a long list with plenty of better qualified people in front of you.*

Sorry, but you need a reality check


----------



## ViperLover

PDR said:


> James, I assume you are talking about being a Professional Herpetologist, someone who is *paid a salary* *to work with reptiles and amphibians*. And then going a step further to specialize with venomous snakes? If so have you actually stopped for a moment to consider the odds?
> You have far better odds of winning millions on the lottery
> *These jobs are very rare and there is a long list with plenty of better qualified people in front of you.*
> Sorry, but you need a reality check


 
I will work my way up there.

How did you become what you are? How did you're job opportunity arrise?


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> I help feed the Dog more regular now...It'll work in my favour. Just got in from walking him....I'm knackered!


Not being funny mate but apart from breeding i mainly educate primary and secondary children on animals in schools...i do this on a weekly think.....most of them have less common pets since i have being going into there schools such as indian stick insects,GALS and such....all of them check them and care for them on a dailt basis. They understand about humidity and that they must keep them above a certain temperture...and this is from 5years old children....if your failing to feed and walk your dog correctly then maybe you should concetrate on your current animals before obtaining more


----------



## paulrimmer69

ViperLover said:


> Can't say I have.


well considering the depth of the hole you seem to be digging yourself on here it might make interesting reading for you


----------



## southwest vipers

terciopelo_dave said:


> Were you the keeper on the trailer? If so, weren't you worried that appearing on a tv program would leave you recognisable?


 I'm not worried about being recognised at all. I am not Gary Glitter! I am a legitimate DWA licence holder. 
I was cleared in court in 2001 of keeping animals illegaly. Also, this is not the first time I have been on the BBC regarding the matter. I did a short interview for BBC southwest in 2001.


----------



## mad martin

James, herpetology as a science is a very very specialized field, with even less work possibilities. There is a lot that can be done with and for these animals outside "herpetology". I am not a qualified herpetologist by degree or whatever, but I do make my living (if living under the breadline is considered living  ) working with reptiles. I am, however, busy with my third year zoology to add to my skills. But even then, that might only end up being for enrichment. It is a decision you cannot take lightly, because the amount of studies are vast and not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

The point of what I am telling you is this: the field of reptiles and their conservation is a thankless job, a difficult job, and a job that will never give you the financial stability of a regular-type job. And where you are now, countless others have been. "I wanna be a herpetologist". Of those countless numbers, maybe one or two decide to give it a go.


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> James, herpetology as a science is a very very specialized field, with even less work possibilities. There is a lot that can be done with and for these animals outside "herpetology". I am not a qualified herpetologist by degree or whatever, but I do make my living (if living under the breadline is considered living  ) working with reptiles. I am, however, busy with my third year zoology to add to my skills. But even then, that might only end up being for enrichment. It is a decision you cannot take lightly, because the amount of studies are vast and not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> The point of what I am telling you is this: the field of reptiles and their conservation is a thankless job, a difficult job, and a job that will never give you the financial stability of a regular-type job. And where you are now, countless others have been. "I wanna be a herpetologist". Of those countless numbers, maybe one or two decide to give it a go.


Dreams can be made reality's if one works hard enough...What other jobs could I do other then herpetology?


----------



## mad martin

Curator, Conservationist, Zoologist etc. etc. the list is rather a big one.
Just remember, in my African experience, the pay really really really sucks  and all of them involve loooooooong hours


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Curator, Conservationist, Zoologist etc. etc. the list is rather a big one.
> Just remember, in my African experience, the pay really really really sucks  and all of them involve loooooooong hours


 
I'm willing to work long hours, aslong as I can work with these animals.

Curators...is that like the head keeper of the entire zoo/exibit?


----------



## mad martin

That would be a curator, yes.
Let me give you a slice of advice. If walking the dog is only something you have started now, consider this:
The *perfect* upkeep of collections ranging between 100 - 1000 animals. This includes their health, cleaning, feeding, breeding and treatment. Your responsibilities above that include the public relations of your park or zoo etc. I spent, on average, between 18 and 20 hours a day, 7 days a week (except Christmas day) at work. Animals don't do holidays. 
You are responsible for the general "respect" of your facility.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> I'm willing to work long hours, aslong as I can work with these animals.
> 
> Curators...is that like the head keeper of the entire zoo/exibit?


Or you could just keep it as a hobby, and make a few quid now and then on the side like most do.
I keep and breed my animals...but it dont pay the bills....thats why i build vivariums,run a market stall selling flowers...


----------



## mad martin

Along with all that work, I still did an average of 4-6 demonstrations a day. Travelling to schools and other places to do them, or doing them at the park. Further duties include catch and release too. To give you an idea, last summer's numbers include: 131 Puff Adders, 68 Snouted Cobras, 141 Mozambique Spitting Cobras, 31 Boomslang and 28 Black Mambas. These are only the common venomous species, not counting any of the other numbers. Consider that each one means getting into a car and driving out to find it.
Granted, in the UK you may not have that problem, but there are always other problems 
Add to that the many, many hours spent road cruising, to record species distribution, and driving out to remove illegally collected animals etc., there is not much sleep time, let alone a life


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Along with all that work, I still did an average of 4-6 demonstrations a day. Travelling to schools and other places to do them, or doing them at the park. Further duties include catch and release too. To give you an idea, last summer's numbers include: 131 Puff Adders, 68 Snouted Cobras, 141 Mozambique Spitting Cobras, 31 Boomslang and 28 Black Mambas. These are only the common venomous species, not counting any of the other numbers. Consider that each one means getting into a car and driving out to find it.
> Granted, in the UK you may not have that problem, but there are always other problems
> Add to that the many, many hours spent road cruising, to record species distribution, and driving out to remove illegally collected animals etc., there is not much sleep time, let alone a life


 
I am willing to do that.

I have no life anyway, so it makes no difference to me lol 

I can make it as a hobby, and carry on with my ICT to become a network analyst, or I can become a Herpetologist, or something in that field.


----------



## PDR

ViperLover said:


> How did you become what you are? How did you're job opportunity arrise?


1. Being exposed to reptiles from the time I could crawl.
2. Having parents and grandparents working in the local zoo.
3. Building up a relationship with the Staff in the Reptile House.
4. Proving my ability with reptiles.
5. Learning as much as I could, asking questions and NOT annoying people who offered help. 
6. Nepotism and being in the right place at the right time for the Zoo position.
7. Head hunted for my current position 
8. Having the right set of skills and experience.
9. A lot of luck
10. etc, etc.


----------



## Tehanu

mad martin said:


> That would be a curator, yes.
> Let me give you a slice of advice. If walking the dog is only something you have started now, consider this:
> The *perfect* upkeep of collections ranging between 100 - 1000 animals. This includes their health, cleaning, feeding, breeding and treatment. Your responsibilities above that include the public relations of your park or zoo etc. I spent, on average, between 18 and 20 hours a day, 7 days a week (except Christmas day) at work. Animals don't do holidays.
> You are responsible for the general "respect" of your facility.


Not to mention that the bad news is, at 16 having never kept any type of reptile or even exotic pet, you're wayyyyyyyyy behind in the race.

Already too many other kids your age will have begun to gain genuine experience, you're competing against them and you need to up your game drastically if you really want to have any chance of fulfilling your dream.

When I was your age I'd already worked in my local reptile shop for 2 years and experienced working with the public and around 50 species of Herps. I'd volunteered with greater crested newt projects in my area and as a result was in a position to move on to even more experience. Cut out a lengthy list of volunteer work and experience in between, I was able to secure a job as a Herpetologist in a world reknowned institution by the age of 21.

Job opportunities don't "arise" you have to actively seek them out. 
To achieve a career with reptiles in general you are going to need to put in a lot of effort. 
To achieve a career as a herpetologist you are going to need drive, ambition and skill by the bucketload. 
To achieve a career working with venomous reptiles you are going to need to be exceptionally focussed, driven, ambitious, in the right places at the right time, trusted and respected by the right people, come with an all star bag of experience and knowledge... 
So er yeah, good luck...

Hope the TV programme is good and such


----------



## mad martin

James, no one is trying to put you off.
Just understand that its a tough field to crack, and the "thank you's" you get are the pride you feel when your charges do well, or you watch that animal slither off into the wild after saving its life. 
Also, don't limit your field to just venomous reptiles. Focus on all animals, and keep a strong interest in the one's you care about.

I don't just work with snakes, but with most dangerous game. It broadens your opportunities.


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> James, no one is trying to put you off.
> Just understand that its a tough field to crack, and the "thank you's" you get are the pride you feel when your charges do well, or you watch that animal slither off into the wild after saving its life.
> Also, don't limit your field to just venomous reptiles. Focus on all animals, and keep a strong interest in the one's you care about.
> 
> I don't just work with snakes, but with most dangerous game. It broadens your opportunities.


 
Reptiles and Big Cats are my favourites...But no way am I stable enough to jump in an enclosure with a 300lbs+ adrenaline super charged cat....I'd end up stumbling over, consequently being killed. As I have a terrible abilitie to walk backwards, and with big cats...You never turn you're back, otherwise you're dead.

I'd love to cuddle a big Siberian tiger though...(as it were) but i'll wait a good few years for that to happen.

They keep Tigers at my local zoo....absolutely gorgeous animals.


----------



## mad martin

Again, you are making an inexperienced statement 
The important thing with the big cats is to be submissive. But that's a different topic completely.
The cuddling thing, also, understand what you want to do. Do you wish to cuddle an animal or do you wish to protect its future? These are the questions you need to ask. Do yourself a favour. Write down an answer to the following question without using the internet: "What is the function of a zoo?"


----------



## kettykev

ViperLover said:


> I am under=going talks with my mum to let me get a King...(Snake, not Cobra for all the perdantic haters)


Pedantic not perdantic


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Again, you are making an inexperienced statement
> The important thing with the big cats is to be submissive. But that's a different topic completely.
> The cuddling thing, also, understand what you want to do. Do you wish to cuddle an animal or do you wish to protect its future? These are the questions you need to ask. Do yourself a favour. Write down an answer to the following question without using the internet: "What is the function of a zoo?"


 
I asked a keepr at my local zoo when I was there a year ago.

She said that if the cat shows any agression, never turn you're back, it can trigger an attack.

I feel that the function of a zoo is to preserve wildlife, to educate people about conservation and admireation of wildlife to give a better understanding of nature. I also think a zoo can be a place where wild animals are bred, and then released into the wild to help increase the numbers of rapidly declining species. I also think Zoo's are put in place so as people can learn, and that it's available for the public to see without having to venture into the wilds, and damaging the wilderness, or damaging the species.


----------



## Stoats

Why are you so interested in DWA animals - tigers and venomous snakes? There is much, much, more to reptiles (and large mammals, I'm sure) than the venomous minority. 

If you were to actually surmount the odds which are stacked against you and get a job in any way connected with venomous snakes as a herpetologist, the chances are it would be mostly lab work, analysing proteins at great length and soforth. Unless you genuinely want a career in biomolecular science, just get a non venomous snake or two (assuming you like these animals for more than their lethality), and see if you want to keep them in the first place.


----------



## ViperLover

Stoats said:


> Why are you so interested in DWA animals - tigers and venomous snakes? There is much, much, more to reptiles (and large mammals, I'm sure) than the venomous minority.
> 
> If you were to actually surmount the odds which are stacked against you and get a job in any way connected with venomous snakes as a herpetologist, the chances are it would be mostly lab work, analysing proteins at great length and soforth. Unless you genuinely want a career in biomolecular science, just get a non venomous snake or two (assuming you like these animals for more than their lethality), and see if you want to keep them in the first place.


 
I like all animals, reptiles, primates,, birds, fish, big cats, and invertabrates are good interests of mine.


----------



## mad martin

To preserve wildlife. How?
To educate. How?
To breed and release. How?
Conservation. How?

You have just created four potential job avenues 

Your answer though, is not thought through. You have kinda rambled into something instead of really putting time and thought into it. You need to learn to really think things through before answering. An answer is like throwing a brick through a window. Once its thrown, its thrown


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> To preserve wildlife. How?
> To educate. How?
> To breed and release. How?
> Conservation. How?
> 
> You have just created four potential job avenues
> 
> Your answer though, is not thought through. You have kinda rambled into something instead of really putting time and thought into it. You need to learn to really think things through before answering. An answer is like throwing a brick through a window. Once its thrown, its thrown


To preserve wildlife - Becoming part of the Environment Agency, insuring British (or wildlife abroad) is safe from poachers, and that the wilderness is kept clean, and un-polluted for the native animals.

To educate - When experienced, I could possibly teach this subject, not only to kids in a classroom but I could also educate people around the world about the needs of these animals for a healthy ecosystem, and not to kill them on sight, but to preserve them for generations to come.

To breed and release - To join projects or partnerships with people breeding these animals from Wild Caught parents, and then releasing the young, when old and developed enough into the wild.

Conservation - To educate people about preserving wildlife, to ensure that people are dedicated to saving wildlife, to set up breeding programs and to work in Zoos, to care for these animals to educate people about how important they are, and what will happen to foodchains, and foodwebs without these amazing creatures....and how badly the ecosystems would suffer due to the extinction of these animals.


----------



## mad martin

To stop poaching is a job on its own. We have ex-military here that do it, and they are very good at it too. Poachers have this habit of going missing. For that reason, anti-poaching is a very very dangerous job.
To educate people not killing them: How do you explain to someone that has buried children from Puff Adder bites that she/he shouldn't kill Puff Adders on sight? Do you see the challenges this kind of work has? Its not about cuddling 
Releasing the young is not so easy, even with something as small as a snake. Just as a scratch, you need to do an Environmental assessment etc. This means you need to figure out why the animal is in danger. Otherwise ny releasing the babies, you are not solving the problem.
Its easy to educate a person in a First World country about conservation. Try explaining it to a tribal elder in the mountains in Kenya. These people don't have a word for "food chain" or "eco system".

But all those you listed are all different opportunities for work. One person cannot do it all. But understand that all of those jobs are tough jobs. 

Decide what you want to do and do it


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> To stop poaching is a job on its own. We have ex-military here that do it, and they are very good at it too. Poachers have this habit of going missing. For that reason, anti-poaching is a very very dangerous job.
> To educate people not killing them: How do you explain to someone that has buried children from Puff Adder bites that she/he shouldn't kill Puff Adders on sight? Do you see the challenges this kind of work has? Its not about cuddling
> Releasing the young is not so easy, even with something as small as a snake. Just as a scratch, you need to do an Environmental assessment etc. This means you need to figure out why the animal is in danger. Otherwise ny releasing the babies, you are not solving the problem.
> Its easy to educate a person in a First World country about conservation. Try explaining it to a tribal elder in the mountains in Kenya. These people don't have a word for "food chain" or "eco system".
> 
> But all those you listed are all different opportunities for work. One person cannot do it all. But understand that all of those jobs are tough jobs.
> 
> Decide what you want to do and do it


 
Becoming a reptile keeper at a Zoo is what I want to do...and if the zoo has venomous, then I can do my venomous training there while at work. Theres so many different aspects to Herpetology.


----------



## mad martin

Then your first step is easy.

Join a volunteer programme at a Zoo. If zoos here have them, I am sure zoos in your country have them too. Remember that selling tickets and picking up garbage is a part of running a zoo.

If you start making excuses why cannot do it, then the field is certainly not for you


----------



## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Then your first step is easy.
> 
> Join a volunteer programme at a Zoo. If zoos here have them, I am sure zoos in your country have them too. Remember that selling tickets and picking up garbage is a part of running a zoo.
> 
> If you start making excuses why cannot do it, then the field is certainly not for you


 
Selling tickets and picking up litter is nothing....Scooping huge mounds of processed food...:lol2:

I don't mind it...Really couldn't care...Its only a bit of poo.


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> Becoming a reptile keeper at a Zoo is what I want to do.


I thought you wanted to be a herpetologist though....

To be honest theres nothing wrong with having dreams and aimming high but i think you aim too high that you over complicate the situation and put obstacles in your own path. 

You have all these big ideas but you dont have the groundwork for any of it, Martin has tried to help and guide you and i think a big thank you from him is in order.
You know sometimes the littest things can mean the most. I teach children about reptiles, i also run a wildlife garden where native animals to britain live,we do talk for the public here and show them grass snakes,adders,toads,hedges and so on. We also have a nice small group of bats that live along the side of the bridge that can be seen every night before hibernation. This land which the garden on was cheap and just a old fly tipping site, 6 months of cleaning it out and replanting with native plants and then sitting back and watching it florish...animals will go where ever its suitable. The wildlife garden isnt at all massive but its extremely wellknown locally. This sort of thing doesnt require much of anything but its the little things like this that can help get you noticed.

Martin is right about trying to volunteer. But at the same time a zoo or petshop ...ETC... isnt going want to have your help if your useless. Over the winter months why dont you clear a small area of your garden,buy a book on flowers and pondlife....create a mini ecosystem in your garden to encourage wildlife into it. Its the simple things like this that catch attention of othersw.....most of the people on here started there passion for reptiles as little boys and girls catching frogs and keeping tadpoles in jamjars and so on...and what better way to start that with your own fauna: victory:


----------



## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> I thought you wanted to be a herpetologist though....
> 
> To be honest theres nothing wrong with having dreams and aimming high but i think you aim too high that you over complicate the situation and put obstacles in your own path.
> 
> You have all these big ideas but you dont have the groundwork for any of it, Martin has tried to help and guide you and i think a big thank you from him is in order.
> You know sometimes the littest things can mean the most. I teach children about reptiles, i also run a wildlife garden where native animals to britain live,we do talk for the public here and show them grass snakes,adders,toads,hedges and so on. We also have a nice small group of bats that live along the side of the bridge that can be seen every night before hibernation. This land which the garden on was cheap and just a old fly tipping site, 6 months of cleaning it out and replanting with native plants and then sitting back and watching it florish...animals will go where ever its suitable. The wildlife garden isnt at all massive but its extremely wellknown locally. This sort of thing doesnt require much of anything but its the little things like this that can help get you noticed.
> 
> Martin is right about trying to volunteer. But at the same time a zoo or petshop ...ETC... isnt going want to have your help if your useless. Over the winter months why dont you clear a small area of your garden,buy a book on flowers and pondlife....create a mini ecosystem in your garden to encourage wildlife into it. Its the simple things like this that catch attention of othersw.....most of the people on here started there passion for reptiles as little boys and girls catching frogs and keeping tadpoles in jamjars and so on...and what better way to start that with your own fauna: victory:


 
Exactly what I used to do...I used to collect spawn from my neighbours pond as a youngen, let them grow into tadpoles, and just before they fully transformed into frogs I would re-release them back where they belonged in the pond. He also used to show me grass snakes that he caught while golfing, (Concidered a pest on the course) and he'd release them into a section of woods near the estate.

And Mark, thanks a lot for the help and advise...I will be looking into it. 

WLW, I do want to study Herpetology...But there are so many more aspects of Herpetology then goin out, looking for snakes etc....Being a herp keeper at a zoo, is a bit of both herpetology, and zoology.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Didn't this used to be a thread about a forthcoming tv program? :whistling2:


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Didn't this used to be a thread about a forthcoming tv program? :whistling2:


 
You're point is? :whip:


----------



## zon3k

it will be on bbc iplayer after its on tv
BBC iPlayer - Search results for Inside Out London


----------



## terciopelo_dave

My point is that we're straying a little off topic and into a realm of you trying to justify your interest in anything that can kill you. As we have done in at least 50% of the posts in this section of the forum recently.
Frankly it's getting boring.
In one thread venomous snakes and crocodilians were your favorite animals, then it was venomous snakes and tigers. If I told you that the outer mongolian lesser spotted death hamster could kill you by looking at you a bit funny, would that then become your new favorite?


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> My point is that we're straying a little off topic and into a realm of you trying to justify your interest in anything that can kill you. As we have done in at least 50% of the posts in this section of the forum recently.
> Frankly it's getting boring.
> In one thread venomous snakes and crocodilians were your favorite animals, then it was venomous snakes and tigers. If I told you that the outer mongolian lesser spotted death hamster could kill you by looking at you a bit funny, would that then become your new favorite?


 
I am a lover of all animals. Reptiles and Amphibians as a whole, and Big Cats. Although I have no intensions of working with big cats, it doesn't do anything for me.

I see you're a venomous keeper...Very good.

Any luck with breeding this past season? (If you breed)


----------



## wildlifewarrior

ViperLover said:


> I am a lover of all animals.


Have you tried a heavey petting zoo?


----------



## ViperLover

wildlifewarrior said:


> Have you tried a heavey petting zoo?


 
The only Zoo within traveling distance of me is Marwell Zoo in Winchester.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

ViperLover said:


> I see you're a venomous keeper...Very good.


Glad you approve. I feel a whole lot better now.

And yes, thankyou, I have had some breeding sucess.


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Glad you approve. I feel a whole lot better now.
> 
> And yes, thankyou, I have had some breeding sucess.


 
LMAO...Come on, no need to be like that.

What success have you had this season?


----------



## zon3k

ViperLover said:


> LMAO...Come on, no need to be like that.
> 
> What success have you had this season?


----------



## terciopelo_dave

@ ww and zon3k - lmao.
Viper lover, My female uracoan is gravid. I don't mean to sound like a :censor:, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
You do sound a little above your station though so please reign it in a bit.


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> @ ww and zon3k - lmao.
> Viper lover, My female uracoan is gravid. I don't mean to sound like a :censor:, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
> You do sound a little above your station though so please reign it in a bit.


 
I am very interested.

Stuff like this, interests me greatly. Goodluck with the litter.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

Thankyou.
Please answer me something. From what I have read, you have no reptiles. True?
No offence intended, but a lot of your questions and your insistance at reciting what is clearly book knowledge based on no practical experience annoys a great deal of people, but despite this you are clearly very keen. Why therefore, do your parents not let you at least put a toe in the water so to speak, and let you get a corn or something?
If they think it's a phase you're going through, then fight tooth and nail and prove them wrong.


----------



## ViperLover

terciopelo_dave said:


> Thankyou.
> Please answer me something. From what I have read, you have no reptiles. True?
> No offence intended, but a lot of your questions and your insistance at reciting what is clearly book knowledge based on no practical experience annoys a great deal of people, but despite this you are clearly very keen. Why therefore, do your parents not let you at least put a toe in the water so to speak, and let you get a corn or something?
> If they think it's a phase you're going through, then fight tooth and nail and prove them wrong.


 
I'm not gonna lie...I have no reptiles.

Its deffinately not a phase...I've loved reptiles from the age of 6...10 years.

My mum is gradually coming around to the idea of letting me get a Kingsnake....We're going to a pet shop tomorrow.


----------



## terciopelo_dave

I suspect you would find most people to be more receptive if you could show some proof of your interest. Saying you want to keep hots when you've never owned a snake is like saying you think you could be a sniper because you've seen a gat gun in a shop window.
It just doesn't ring true. The people on here are on the whole very accomodating and will help you in every way they can, but meet us half way.


----------



## wallakenne

its on bbc iplayer yeah
cant wait to see it should be an interesting watch


----------



## Malc

ViperLover said:


> Sky viewers can see this on the channel E Mids....Browse for it on you're sky guide.


For once a post from you that is informative and actually helpful and doesn't wind people up


----------



## zon3k

Malc said:


> For once a post from you that is informative and actually helpful and doesn't wind people up


rofl
shame the people who stated it will be online on bbc iplayer previously was lost amidst his inane ramblings..:whistling2:


----------



## slippery42

what channel is the east midlands on sky?


----------



## Malc

ViperLover said:


> ....and carry on with my ICT to become a network analyst,


James, you seem to set your targets really high, and have a very naive view on things. Generally to become a network analyst, it involves years of working your way up from a basic IT assistant, putting in lots of time, effort and study to get the recognised qualifications and gaining the practical experience. Or you spend three to five years at uni to gain a degree and then start as a junior analyst whilst studying for the various MS and Cisco qualifications. You also need to have a lot of money behind you as these qualifications are not cheap.

The same applies to your dream of becoming a professional herpetologist. You seem to think that after a few years of grafting you will be able to take a position (should one be available as others more qualified have already pointed out they are few and far between) that has a lot of responsibility.

I came over to this thread to see what the fuss was about, I mean why is a post about a TV program running into several pages, and I find its the same old thing as loads of other threads. You appear to be able to steer it off topic, upsetting very experienced keepers with your constant post and arrogant approach.

I was also annoyed at your comments regarding your dog. Looking after a dog (IMO) is far more demanding than a snake. They require regular feeding and water every day, as well as lots of exercise. If I skipped a feed for the Royals by a few days or even a week or so they would still be OK. I couldn't (and wouldn't) do that to my two year old German shepherd.

I do hope you are allowed to get a King or Corn snake, and I hope to see more of your questions on how to provide for it over on the general snake section, provided they are genuine questions and not offering pseudo advice that you have made up or read from some website or book.

Oh and forgot to add, I work along side the IT manager in a company employing over 120 staff. We have 15 servers and over 150 PC's and it's our task to make sure all the systems and network are running 24/7 - and at 46 I worked my way up the ladder the hard way, and got to the position by lots of hard graft and listening to those who were more experienced than I was... then applying what I had learned when the time came.


----------



## Malc

slippery42 said:


> what channel is the east midlands on sky?


I think it was 980 ?


----------



## ViperLover

slippery42 said:


> what channel is the east midlands on sky?


Channel 980


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> James, you seem to set your targets really high, and have a very naive view on things. Generally to become a network analyst, it involves years of working your way up from a basic IT assistant, putting in lots of time, effort and study to get the recognised qualifications and gaining the practical experience. Or you spend three to five years at uni to gain a degree and then start as a junior analyst whilst studying for the various MS and Cisco qualifications. You also need to have a lot of money behind you as these qualifications are not cheap.
> 
> The same applies to your dream of becoming a professional herpetologist. You seem to think that after a few years of grafting you will be able to take a position (should one be available as others more qualified have already pointed out they are few and far between) that has a lot of responsibility.
> 
> I came over to this thread to see what the fuss was about, I mean why is a post about a TV program running into several pages, and I find its the same old thing as loads of other threads. You appear to be able to steer it off topic, upsetting very experienced keepers with your constant post and arrogant approach.
> 
> I was also annoyed at your comments regarding your dog. Looking after a dog (IMO) is far more demanding than a snake. They require regular feeding and water every day, as well as lots of exercise. If I skipped a feed for the Royals by a few days or even a week or so they would still be OK. I couldn't (and wouldn't) do that to my two year old German shepherd.
> 
> I do hope you are allowed to get a King or Corn snake, and I hope to see more of your questions on how to provide for it over on the general snake section, provided they are genuine questions and not offering pseudo advice that you have made up or read from some website or book.
> 
> Oh and forgot to add, I work along side the IT manager in a company employing over 120 staff. We have 15 servers and over 150 PC's and it's our task to make sure all the systems and network are running 24/7 - and at 46 I worked my way up the ladder the hard way, and got to the position by lots of hard graft and listening to those who were more experienced than I was... then applying what I had learned when the time came.


Thanks for the advise Malc, really helped 

Over the next few weeks I am going to need to look at what careers are available regarding my interests, and go from there. it'll involve a bit of researchm and a discussion with my careers adviser in college but I'll get there.


----------



## Jade01

ViperLover said:


> Thanks for the advise Malc, really helped
> 
> Over the next few weeks I am going to need to look at what careers are available regarding my interests, and go from there. it'll involve a bit of researchm and a discussion with my careers adviser in college but I'll get there.


can you stop turning every single thread into a career advice thread for you?! it is doing my head in.

and stop pretending like you know stuff about DWA because, you dont keep them therefore it doesn't count!

and yeah i dont keep them either, quite obviously, im 19 dont have nearly enough experience, get your head out of the clouds.

sorry for the outburst, but you just aren't listening to people. the guys on here seriously know their stuff and you dont show them any respect or attention at all!
And to keep on topic, im getting my parents to record it for me when i go home at christmas :2thumb:


----------



## Moglet

PDR said:


> If you knew anything about film work you would know that you have to sign a form to say that the TV company can use footage of you....
> Copying stuff and posting it on U-tube is Illegal unless you have the permission to do so.
> I’m sure Mark O’Shea would not be happy about someone posting it on U-tube without asking him first.



It'll be on BBCi player. Which funnily enough.. is online.
You tube/ iplayer, they're only hosts.


----------



## ViperLover

Moglet said:


> It'll be on BBCi player. Which funnily enough.. is online.
> You tube/ iplayer, they're only hosts.


 
BBC iPlayer is owned by the BBC....so therefore they still have the contract to broadcast.

Youtube isn't the BBC, so a seperate contract needs to be signed technically before the video can be uploaded...Also it is copyrighted by the BBC, so you are also breaking copyright laws if you havent asked the BBC prior to uploading it to youtube.


----------



## reef

ViperLover said:


> BBC iPlayer is owned by the BBC....so therefore they still have the contract to broadcast.
> 
> Youtube isn't the BBC, so a seperate cobtract needs to be signed technically before the video can be uploaded...Also it is copyrighted by the BBC, so you are also breaking copyright laws if you havent asked the BBC prior to uploading it to youtube.




Ref: Viperpedia "your online guide to everything "


----------



## kelboy

ViperLover said:


> BBC iPlayer is owned by the BBC....so therefore they still have the contract to broadcast.
> 
> Youtube isn't the BBC, so a seperate contract needs to be signed technically before the video can be uploaded...Also it is copyrighted by the BBC, so you are also breaking copyright laws if you havent asked the BBC prior to uploading it to youtube.


The BBC have their own youtube channel, so I'm sure they'll post it themselves.


----------



## ViperLover

kelboy said:


> The BBC have their own youtube channel, so I'm sure they'll post it themselves.


 
Yeahhh, but it only becomes illegal when someone who isn't BBC posts it.


----------



## kelboy

ViperLover said:


> Yeahhh, but it only becomes illegal when someone who isn't BBC posts it.


I wasn't commenting on the legalities of someone else posting it, I couldn't care less about that, just saying that it will likely end up on youtube anyway, without someone posting it.


----------



## StevetheSnake

So he's a law expert now.....


----------



## ViperLover

kelboy said:


> I wasn't commenting on the legalities of someone else posting it, I couldn't care less about that, just saying that it will likely end up on youtube anyway, without someone posting it.


 
I hope so.


----------



## kelboy

StevetheSnake said:


> So he's a law expert now.....


He's decided he wants a career in copyright law now.


----------



## Malc

StevetheSnake said:


> So he's a law expert now.....


:lol2::lol2:


----------



## Alfonzo

Jade01 said:


> can you stop turning every single thread into a career advice thread for you?! it is doing my head in.
> 
> and stop pretending like you know stuff about DWA because, you dont keep them therefore it doesn't count!
> 
> and yeah i dont keep them either, quite obviously, im 19 dont have nearly enough experience, get your head out of the clouds.
> 
> sorry for the outburst, but you just aren't listening to people. the guys on here seriously know their stuff and you dont show them any respect or attention at all!
> And to keep on topic, im getting my parents to record it for me when i go home at christmas :2thumb:


Lol nice. Gotta say guys I'm pretty astonished that this thread has rumbled on for so long...it was only meant to be a heads up for interested parties.:Na_Na_Na_Na: 

looking forward to watching this program anyway, it feels like its had a bigger build up than a heavyweight boxing match now!

just hope it lasts longer than most of em. 

Al.


----------



## Chris Newman

Alfonzo said:


> Hey everyone...I don't often venture in here!
> 
> Just thought ppl in the east mids might be interested in watching Inside Out next monday night, features a piece by Mark O'Shea discussing the dangers of how easy it is to obtain venomous snakes these days.
> 
> I don't know if I agree or disagree with the sentiment, but he'll be speaking with venomous keepers (both licensed and unlicensed) and it looks like it could be informative and interesting to watch.
> 
> Cheers
> Al.


This should be a balanced piece; Jim Collins is representing the pro keeping lobby on this occasion. It also features a well know keeper as well. HOPFULLY, it will present responsible keepers of DWAA species the right light. The programme will be covering the changes to the DWAA which will be coming in shortly, the reason its has received so much attention recently is due to the actions of a certain irresponsible ‘welfare’ organisation that is opposing the changes.


----------



## jonodrama

have just sky+ it , inside out are normally pretty good.


----------



## ViperLover

Where in Southampton/Bornemouth?


----------



## jonodrama

Hiya Viper
New forest, i say soton/b'mouth coz its easy when buying or selling bits?? how about you?


----------



## Genseric

I tried to get it on Virgin, and missed it...and it isn't on my Iplayer.. anyone happen to see it? How was it?


----------



## zon3k

LeviathanNI said:


> I tried to get it on Virgin, and missed it...and it isn't on my Iplayer.. anyone happen to see it? How was it?


try bbc iplayer after it's been on later tonight :no1:


----------



## Genseric

Ah...I thought this programme had been on already! See what happens when you now scan threads instead of 'reading' them:whistling2:


----------



## paraman

Saedcantas said:


> What is the deal with Herpetologists???


Dont they eat small children?


----------



## Tehanu

paraman said:


> Dont they eat small children?


I have six small ones per day, better to space them out than have just three large ones.

I was just making sure that his Mum knew...:lol2:


----------



## slippery42

Just watched the program and it was pretty good, a few faces I know and even saw myself.


----------



## paulrimmer69

i bet a certain mr nixon made an appearance lol!


----------



## pythondave82

paulrimmer69 said:


> i bet a certain mr nixon made an appearance lol!


I've not seen it, but Mark told me on Saturday they were not using me - which suits me fine, dont want my neighbours seeing me.

Cheers,

Dave


----------



## Malc

Must admit it was a bit lame IMO... I mean the main point of the item was to gauge opinion on if the proposed changes to the administration of the DWAL application would make much difference to the "underground" movement where people keep dangerous snakes without a license. Yet the actual problems people currently face in getting licenses or exactly how these changes would be introduced wasn't mentioned.

One statement that was made was that keepers of venomous snakes etc are a tight knitted community and everyone knows everyone... so when they interviewed some chap who didn't want his identity known, why the hell did Mark state he came from Nottingham.... I bet a lot of you guys probably identified him straight away...


----------



## pythondave82

Malc said:


> Must admit it was a bit lame IMO... I mean the main point of the item was to gauge opinion on if the proposed changes to the administration of the DWAL application would make much difference to the "underground" movement where people keep dangerous snakes without a license. Yet the actual problems people currently face in getting licenses or exactly how these changes would be introduced wasn't mentioned.
> 
> One statement that was made was that keepers of venomous snakes etc are a tight knitted community and everyone knows everyone... so when they interviewed some chap who didn't want his identity known, why the hell did Mark state he came from Nottingham.... I bet a lot of you guys probably identified him straight away...


Because he doesn't come from anywhere near Nottingham.


----------



## ViperLover

Have to agree with Malc.

Nice little Diamondback too!.

Who was the guy with the piercing and long beard?


----------



## glidergirl

ViperLover said:


> Who was the guy with the piercing and long beard?


My other half.


----------



## ViperLover

glidergirl said:


> My other half.


 
Name being?


----------



## glidergirl

Richard from Shropshire Exotics.


----------



## Malc

pythondave82 said:


> Because he doesn't come from anywhere near Nottingham.


They lied.... no the BBC don't make things up ... do they :whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## ViperLover

Malc said:


> They lied.... no the BBC don't make things up ... do they :whistling2::whistling2:


 
They arent allowed to give out any potential ID information....If somebody recognises him and reports him then the BBC could be in a lotta poo.

TBH it was a poor ID protection, anyone who knew him or knew his name and face could easilly ID him.


----------



## Central Scotland Reptiles

I watched the programme. I must say i am glad i am not in the BBC East Midlands catchment area!!!! 

Did i pick the 'unidentified guy' up correctly in that there are 5 illegal keepers of DWA reptiles to every 1 legal keeper? If so, that doesn't paint a very god picture of the hobby at all.

And, if i am honest, if i was joe public and some LOCAL ( not national ) TV show said that my neighbour could be keeping a dangerous snake ( where the accomodation had been inspected etc etc ) i would be a little scared. Then to find out there could also be another 5 illegally kept snakes in my area ( where the accomodation has NOT been inspected i.e. escaped animals possibly ). I would be even more scared. Who can blame an uneducated person for wanting ALL reptiles to be banned? 

I have real concerns that if, as a hobby ( not just DWA ), we are unable to police ourselves. Some wide reaching rules and regulations will be impossed on ALL reptile keepers.


----------



## ViperLover

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I watched the programme. I must say i am glad i am not in the BBC East Midlands catchment area!!!!
> 
> Did i pick the 'unidentified guy' up correctly in that there are 5 illegal keepers of DWA reptiles to every 1 legal keeper? If so, that doesn't paint a very god picture of the hobby at all.
> 
> And, if i am honest, if i was joe public and some LOCAL ( not national ) TV show said that my neighbour could be keeping a dangerous snake ( where the accomodation had been inspected etc etc ) i would be a little scared. Then to find out there could also be another 5 illegally kept snakes in my area ( where the accomodation has NOT been inspected i.e. escaped animals possibly ). I would be even more scared. Who can blame an uneducated person for wanting ALL reptiles to be banned?
> 
> I have real concerns that if, as a hobby ( not just DWA ), we are unable to police ourselves. Some wide reaching rules and regulations will be impossed on ALL reptile keepers.


 
Well said! :2thumb:


----------



## southwest vipers

slippery42 said:


> Just watched the program and it was pretty good, a few faces I know and even saw myself.


Hollywood beckons.


----------



## StevetheSnake

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I watched the programme. I must say i am glad i am not in the BBC East Midlands catchment area!!!!
> 
> Did i pick the 'unidentified guy' up correctly in that there are 5 illegal keepers of DWA reptiles to every 1 legal keeper? If so, that doesn't paint a very god picture of the hobby at all.
> 
> And, if i am honest, if i was joe public and some LOCAL ( not national ) TV show said that my neighbour could be keeping a dangerous snake ( where the accomodation had been inspected etc etc ) i would be a little scared. Then to find out there could also be another 5 illegally kept snakes in my area ( where the accomodation has NOT been inspected i.e. escaped animals possibly ). I would be even more scared. Who can blame an uneducated person for wanting ALL reptiles to be banned?
> 
> I have real concerns that if, as a hobby ( not just DWA ), we are unable to police ourselves. Some wide reaching rules and regulations will be impossed on ALL reptile keepers.


I'm sorry, but i think this is total and utter scaremongering. Lets leave it a day or so to see if any sort of fallout from the program happens. I can guarentee the guy is sensationalising when he says there is 5 illegal keepers for every 1, I'd love to see how he came to that statistic. Of course there would be a large amount of people keeping these animals legally, but when was the last time we heard an incident involving an illegally held animal? I for one cannot think of one. There may well be a few people who get up in arms over it, but it will die down soon enough.


----------



## rogersspider2007

Malc said:


> They lied.... no the BBC don't make things up ... do they :whistling2::whistling2:


Mark said he *met* him in nottingham so that doesnt mean he lives there.


----------



## slippery42

I think it is fair to say that there are "probably" more illegal keepres than legal ones but as its all underground who can say with any accuracy what the numbers are.

As for safety there is still a more pressing issue with dangerous dogs!


----------



## Alfonzo

StevetheSnake said:


> I can guarentee the guy is sensationalising when he says there is 5 illegal keepers for every 1, I'd love to see how he came to that statistic.


Have to agree with this, I wondered when I heard that statement how the hell he came up with the figure. The fact that it was apparently just plucked out of thin air was remarkably close to tabloid reporting and a little disappointing. 

Over all I found the piece to be interesting but inconclusive, it didn't really appear to say anything other than 'yes you can acquire venemous snakes, and yes it can be done with relative ease.'

I don't know if I was expecting some sort of conclusion but it seems like it was just a touch pointless to me.


----------



## Chris Newman

slippery42 said:


> I think it is fair to say that there are "probably" more illegal keepres than legal ones but as its all underground who can say with any accuracy what the numbers are.
> 
> As for safety there is still a more pressing issue with dangerous dogs!


The suggestion that there are five illegal keepers for every legal keeper is probably an underestimation, truth be told. Government accepts that non-compliance with the DWAA is possibly as high as 90%! Which is precisely the reason for the latest review of the DWAA – to generate compliance.


----------



## stuartdouglas

I know it's kind of hijacking the thread and apologies for that, but until the Government standardises the DWAL applications process then no amount of wishy washy reviews will force or encourage compliance. While there are still Local Authorities who refuse point blank to issue a license then there will be illegal keepers, whilst there are LA's that think they can charge in the thousands for a license then they are the ones who are effectively encouraging and forcing *non*-compliance. A fair license fee, across the country, with fair and realistic conditions for issue and there would be no reason to keep illegally.


----------



## southwest vipers

stuartdouglas said:


> I know it's kind of hijacking the thread and apologies for that, but until the Government standardises the DWAL applications process then no amount of wishy washy reviews will force or encourage compliance. While there are still Local Authorities who refuse point blank to issue a license then there will be illegal keepers, whilst there are LA's that think they can charge in the thousands for a license then they are the ones who are effectively encouraging and forcing *non*-compliance. A fair license fee, across the country, with fair and realistic conditions for issue and there would be no reason to keep illegally.


I think you're missing the point to a degree Stuart. Firstly,everyones levels of wealth are different, so no matter what the fee is there are those who will struggle to pay it and complain that the fee is too high.What is a fair fee? The LAs could have a uniform fee of say, £2000 as thay already have in at least one area if they can justify it. More importantly, the reform is to make it easier to comply to and not qualify for.The LAs will be able to prosecute more successfully for non compliance as they will have the newly reformed act to refer to. Also I believe that the LAs that refuse point blank will have that luxury removed when the reform is finally in place. This was one of the main reasons given in defence of those charged with non complience.


----------



## Chris Newman

stuartdouglas said:


> I know it's kind of hijacking the thread and apologies for that, but until the Government standardises the DWAL applications process then no amount of wishy washy reviews will force or encourage compliance. While there are still Local Authorities who refuse point blank to issue a license then there will be illegal keepers, whilst there are LA's that think they can charge in the thousands for a license then they are the ones who are effectively encouraging and forcing *non*-compliance. A fair license fee, across the country, with fair and realistic conditions for issue and there would be no reason to keep illegally.


Agreed, but unfortunately this is highly unlikely to ever happen. The good news, however, is that for the first time since 1976 government is drafting guidance for Local Authorities on how to implement the DWAA. This will make bring rogue LA’s to task much easier then ever before - not perfect, but a start!


----------



## oakelm

Hi all, dont venture in here often but thought someone will have done a thread on this. I think that guy with his identity hidden was a bit silly to say something like that about illegal keepers, surely anyone who wants the hobby to continue and has the hobbies best interest in mind wouldnt put forward such a scary statement for the general public to see.

I think standardising dwa licences across the UK would help to stop some councils charging loads and set some type of standard agreed with current dwa holder for everyone to have in regards to setup even though most legal setups will be around the same.

I was watching it and thinking whats the betting more cars and coaches get stopped on december hamm weekend now. Still liked seeing a bit of rep related things on the telly, some lovely snakes to drool over.


----------



## Central Scotland Reptiles

StevetheSnake said:


> I'm sorry, *but i think this is total and utter scaremongering.* Lets leave it a day or so to see if any sort of fallout from the program happens. I can guarentee the guy is sensationalising when he says there is 5 illegal keepers for every 1, I'd love to see how he came to that statistic. Of course there would be a large amount of people keeping these animals legally, but when was the last time we heard an incident involving an illegally held animal? I for one cannot think of one. There may well be a few people who get up in arms over it, but it will die down soon enough.


That is EXACTLY my point. Joe Public believes EVERYTHING they are told on the TV, especially when it concerns animals such as reptiles.


----------



## Jabba the mentor

Chris Newman said:


> The suggestion that there are five illegal keepers for every legal keeper is probably an underestimation, truth be told. Government accepts that non-compliance with the DWAA is possibly as high as 90%! Which is precisely the reason for the latest review of the DWAA – to generate compliance.


WTF where have you got that from? 90%??


----------



## kettykev

BBC iplayer, 
categories, 
factual,
other
inside out east midlands


----------



## NICKO

the last link didnt work for me so heres a link for anybody whos interested (although i think everyones seen it now) BBC iPlayer - Inside Out East Midlands: 30/11/2009 (i just watched it its alright, i did like the waglers) 

(and btw i know this is gonna make me sound like a pr*ck but viperlover will you F**k OFF i dont even know you and your really pissing me off i cant read anything in this section with out you talking crap and you dont even keep non dwa:whip::bash: :devil


----------



## Chris Newman

Jabba the mentor said:


> WTF where have you got that from? 90%??


By the nature of something being illegal, underground, it is extremely difficult to measure it, therefore we will never know the actual number of illegal keepers. The figure of non-compliance possibly as high as 90% is taken from the review itself. However, some substance is given to this figure when you look at the numbers of DWAA species imported by via airports, i.e. Heathrow. The bottom-line is that non-compliance is very high, and that is an issue that needs addressing. The primary reason for non-compliance is well know, i.e. abuse of the Act by LA’s, therefore if government wishes to see grater compliance then it must tackle the cause.


----------



## slippery42

when is the ammended act likely to come in?


----------



## Chris Newman

The amendments will not come into effect until at least April next year. However, it is hopped the guidance to LA’s will be issued shortly.


----------



## slippery42

Chris Newman said:


> The amendments will not come into effect until at least April next year. However, it is hopped the guidance to LA’s will be issued shortly.


thanks for that Chris


----------



## southwest vipers

Chris Newman said:


> By the nature of something being illegal, underground, it is extremely difficult to measure it, therefore we will never know the actual number of illegal keepers. The figure of non-compliance possibly as high as 90% is taken from the review itself. However, some substance is given to this figure when you look at the numbers of DWAA species imported by via airports, i.e. Heathrow. The bottom-line is that non-compliance is very high, and that is an issue that needs addressing. The primary reason for non-compliance is well know, i.e. abuse of the Act by LA’s, therefore if government wishes to see grater compliance then it must tackle the cause.


I wonder what the statistics are regarding the numbers of breaches of safety, escapes and bite incidents etc, connected to non compliant dwa owners. If the safety record is as good with them as it is with legitimate dwa owners, this the renders the DWA act almost redundant. certainly for DWA listed reptiles.


----------



## Chris Newman

southwest vipers said:


> I wonder what the statistics are regarding the numbers of breaches of safety, escapes and bite incidents etc, connected to non compliant dwa owners. If the safety record is as good with them as it is with legitimate dwa owners, this the renders the DWA act almost redundant. certainly for DWA listed reptiles.


Interesting point, as far as statistics go I am not aware that they are any in relation to the number of unlicensed keepers being bitten! There are also, as far as I am aware, no records of any escapes. Perhaps the most important statistic is that there has never been a death or serious injury to a member of the public caused by a DWAA scheduled species.


----------



## stuartdouglas

Chris Newman said:


> Interesting point, as far as statistics go I am not aware that they are any in relation to the number of unlicensed keepers being bitten! There are also, as far as I am aware, no records of any escapes. Perhaps the most important statistic is that there has never been a death or serious injury to a member of the public caused by a DWAA scheduled species.


If there are, as stated in the documentary, more unlicensed keepers than licensed ones, and given that there have been no deaths or injuries to the public from any non-native DWA herps, then that effectively does make the act redundant, inasmuch as there are more keepers out there without a license, yet Joe Public remains unhurt and no keepers have died, so what is the Act achieving?
If, as some people would have us believe, unlicensed keepers are irresponsible and are not taking the correct precautions, then why have there been no deaths or injuries to the public or escapes of captive DWA herps?


----------



## Chris Newman

stuartdouglas said:


> If there are, as stated in the documentary, more unlicensed keepers than licensed ones, and given that there have been no deaths or injuries to the public from any non-native DWA herps, then that effectively does make the act redundant, inasmuch as there are more keepers out there without a license, yet Joe Public remains unhurt and no keepers have died, so what is the Act achieving?
> If, as some people would have us believe, unlicensed keepers are irresponsible and are not taking the correct precautions, then why have there been no deaths or injuries to the public or escapes of captive DWA herps?


A very good point. In fact one could construct a very compelling argument that the DWAA should be repealed!


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## Alfonzo

Perhaps in relation to reps, wouldn't like to see an increase in just anybody deciding they wanted a tiger or something though!


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## paulrimmer69

Alfonzo said:


> Perhaps in relation to reps, wouldn't like to see an increase in just anybody deciding they wanted a tiger or something though!


just imagine though if there wasnt a dwa license and a certain person (or people for that matter) was able to legally keep venomous, wouldnt be long before a serious accident happened, there are always going to be people who have a gun even though its illigal but imagine if guns were legalised???????


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## Jabba the mentor

stuartdouglas said:


> If there are, as stated in the documentary, more unlicensed keepers than licensed ones, and given that there have been no deaths or injuries to the public from any non-native DWA herps, then that effectively does make the act redundant, inasmuch as there are more keepers out there without a license, yet Joe Public remains unhurt and no keepers have died, so what is the Act achieving?
> If, as some people would have us believe, unlicensed keepers are irresponsible and are not taking the correct precautions, then why have there been no deaths or injuries to the public or escapes of captive DWA herps?


Do we know of any deaths or injuries to the public in Holland? They dont have the DWAA seems to work for them without it


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## southwest vipers

paulrimmer69 said:


> just imagine though if there wasnt a dwa license and a certain person (or people for that matter) was able to legally keep venomous, wouldnt be long before a serious accident happened, there are always going to be people who have a gun even though its illigal but imagine if guns were legalised???????


 This is just the point Paul, with the apparent 90% of keepers non compliant there have not been any serious instances that we can recall. This means that all of these people are keeping their animals safe and secure regardless of all of the safety requirements insisted on by the DWA act. On your second point, sadly gun crime has risen since the banning of gun ownership came into place.


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## ViperLover

paulrimmer69 said:


> just imagine though if there wasnt a dwa license and a *certain person* (or people for that matter) was able to legally keep venomous, wouldnt be long before a serious accident happened, there are always going to be people who have a gun even though its illigal but imagine if guns were legalised???????


 
Sorry but that was hard to ignore...

Even if keeping highly venomous species was legal without a lisence, I would have still gotten professional advise from the likes of you guys first. I have a family in the same house, and I wouldn't put them in any danger whatsoever.

I am still going to work my way up, the risks outweigh the bennifits by jumping straight into the deep end...It aint worth it.


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## Jabba the mentor

southwest vipers said:


> This is just the point Paul, with the apparent 90% of keepers non compliant there have not been any serious instances that we can recall. This means that all of these people are keeping their animals safe and secure regardless of all of the safety requirements insisted on by the DWA act. On your second point, sadly gun crime has risen since the banning of gun ownership came into place.


Good point Mr C


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## leecb0

I think that there should be a licence and that that it should be standerdised across all LA's. And there should be no illeagel keeping of DWA without it, but i do understand why people dont bother with it or are hinderd by greedy LA's or those that point blank refuse to issue it.
for instance my LA charges £220 per year which is about average for the good council's from what i have herd, and i think is very reasonable.
within a 20 mile radious of my house there are differnt LA's
Lichfield....will issue 
Birmingham.....wont issue
Dudley.......will issue but complience is very strict i am told
Cannock....wont issue
Burton upon Trent....will issue and from what i have been told compliance is realistic and the cheapest around my area
Wolverhampton...not sure but i believe they will as i knew a licence holder about 10 years ago
Telford....will issue
so you can see why there are unlicenced keepers.
Take Birmingham for instance its the second largest City in the uk supposedly and that is a reasonable chunk of the population, so there will no doubt be people who live there who most proberbly would keep them leagley but the LA' hinders them for no reason but the officer in charge "doesnt like snakes". funny thing is if i get tagged my Protocol along with the likes of West mids safari park and no doubt other local keepers around my area is to go to Birmingham city Hospital's poison unit.
The only thing i would be against is if someone that lives in an area that will issue a licence at a reasonable fee but cant be botherd to go to the expence of converting a room and doing it "the right way".
i am not a rich man i have a house and a family like ther rest of the keepers on here and it cost me around a £400 to convert my garage. my vet inspection which was by Chris Marshall and was 269 quid then £140 for insurance and the Dwal fee was £220.
so all in all this all cost me less than a grand 
over a few months this is easily doable for most people dedicated to doing it the right way and you dont need to be a millionaire to do it.....
I cant afford to put any snakes in it though:lol2:


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## Owzy

stuartdouglas said:


> If there are, as stated in the documentary, more unlicensed keepers than licensed ones, and given that there have been no deaths or injuries to the public from any non-native DWA herps, then that effectively does make the act redundant, inasmuch as there are more keepers out there without a license, yet Joe Public remains unhurt and no keepers have died, so what is the Act achieving?
> If, as some people would have us believe, unlicensed keepers are irresponsible and are not taking the correct precautions, then why have there been no deaths or injuries to the public or escapes of captive DWA herps?


As you know I don't have one but I can't say I agree 100%

That fact that the DWAL is there means there are consequences for not compliying, meaning I would guess that those without one will be as, if not more careful. 

It also means that those selling illegal are not going to sell to someone like V.L because they know there is a very good chance the buyer will end up with a major case of deadness. They will sell/give only to those who they know will most likely take all the steps those with a DWAL will, due to the fact that if they were caught out they could end up in a bit of trouble.

I doubt highly any of the illegal keepers who have obtained DWAL required animals in the UK have got them off complete strangers.

If the DWAL was not there, what would stop some moron selling whatever he wants to whoever he wants.

Obviously there are exceptions... and there is still nothing to stop someone getting them from elsewhere.


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## ScottGB

I was offered a WDB a good few of years back. The guy knew I didn't have a DWAL, I just showed an interest in keeping venomous snakes. I didn't have the experience, I still don't and I wasn't even tempted to go the illigal route. But I could have and I'm afraid someone neive and stupid enough would have.


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## Moglet

What a load of old codswallop.


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## stuartdouglas

Moglet said:


> What a load of old codswallop.


explain please...............


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## ian14

> within a 20 mile radious of my house there are differnt LA's
> Lichfield....will issue
> Birmingham.....wont issue
> Dudley.......will issue but complience is very strict i am told
> Cannock....wont issue
> Burton upon Trent....will issue and from what i have been told compliance is realistic and the cheapest around my area
> Wolverhampton...not sure but i believe they will as i knew a licence holder about 10 years ago
> Telford....will issue
> so you can see why there are unlicenced keepers


.

As an aside, no council can legally have a blanket ban on granting DWA licences. This is made clear in the act itself.


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## stuartdouglas

ian14 said:


> .
> 
> As an aside, no council can legally have a blanket ban on granting DWA licences. This is made clear in the act itself.


But the act also says that Local authorities can impose any and all conditions they deem necessary to the granting of a license, so all they do is impose such ridiculous conditions that the license is effectively unobtainable.


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## ian14

stuartdouglas said:


> But the act also says that Local authorities can impose any and all conditions they deem necessary to the granting of a license, so all they do is impose such ridiculous conditions that the license is effectively unobtainable.


In this day and age of Human Rights, though, any conditions imposed must be necessary and proportionate - they cannot impose conditions so stringent that they are impossible to meet.


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## Alfonzo

Moglet said:


> What a load of old codswallop.


lol. Not sure what this was in response too but I thought it was funny nonetheless.


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## Jabba the mentor

Alfonzo said:


> lol. Not sure what this was in response too but I thought it was funny nonetheless.


Probably to the post that said 90% keep without a DWA I thought that was funny


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## ian14

Jabba the mentor said:


> Probably to the post that said 90% keep without a DWA I thought that was funny


That figure may be low, this is directly from the DEFRA site....

Ministerial replies to public concerns about the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 have, for a number of years, pointed to the need for a review of the legislation. These concerns include the RSPCA campaign opposing the keeping of wild animals in captivity, press reports suggesting exotics can be bought in pubs at ridiculously low prices , and the *Companion Animal Welfare Group’s suggestion that compliance with the 1976 Act might be as low as 1%. *There has been no review, however, owing to the pressure of other commitments. Much of the work will involve researching and comparing existing legislation, much of which is little known or understood, and putting the DWA into the context of other legislation. Departmental officials will be interviewed in Home Office and Defra to seek their experience. Local authorities (a representative sample at least) will similarly be interviewed to seek their experience. In addition the Zoos Forum, veterinary organisations and other relevant NGOs will also have an opportunity to contribute their experience and opinions.

And this is lifted from the review itself...

10.​​*Unlicensed animals*​*
*It is inevitably difficult to measure the extent of unlicensed DWA keeping in England and Wales.
*Estimates from animal keeping organisations and the pet trade suggest an 85-95% rate of noncompliance,*
however we have found no proof to support non-compliance of this magnitude. We
have approached this subject in a number of ways and have attempted to make a quantitative
assessment in addition to anecdotal opinion. Our research, and common sense, would suggest that
those scheduled animals most likely to be kept without a licence are those which can be kept
hidden from the public. It is extremely unlikely that there are any large cats or elephants that
remain unlicensed in England and Wales. Much more likely is the illegal keeping of scheduled
reptiles, particularly venomous snakes, which may be housed in a single room and are easily
hidden from visitors.
In order to try to obtain quantitative figures on the numbers of unlicensed animals, we requested
information from a number of sources. We contacted the major insurance companies prepared to
insure DWAs, the Animal Reception Centre at London's Heathrow Airport, and the CITES team​within DETR to try to obtain information on the number of animals in the country.

So perhaps not codswallop!


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## stuartdouglas

I fail to see how, without knowing how many unlicensed keepers there are in the UK there can be any figure bandied about. One would need to know how many people in the UK keep DWAA animals and compare that to the total number of licenses issued, and I think it highly unlikely that unlicensed keepers will volunteer that information!
If the authorities "know" that 90% of the keepers in the country are unlicensed, why have we not seen any evidence of numerous successful prosecutions? 
In fact, the authorities that produced these figures are producing a damning indictement (sp?) of the act itself. As with any law, there are going to be a small proportion of people who will not abide by it, however, when the figure is as high as 90%, then that says there is something very wrong with the act itself, and it is not something that the recent bland and frankly, wishy washy review of the act will do anything to resolve. There has been no hard and fast standard that L.A's have to adhere to in terms of conditions of issue and costs; and these are the main things that I would venture are contributory to "off license" keeping. £2000 for an annual license is ridiculous, as is the attitude of "we don't issue DWA licenses in this borough/county/town"


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## slippery42

stuartdouglas said:


> I fail to see how, without knowing how many unlicensed keepers there are in the UK there can be any figure bandied about. One would need to know how many people in the UK keep DWAA animals and compare that to the total number of licenses issued, and I think it highly unlikely that unlicensed keepers will volunteer that information!
> If the authorities "know" that 90% of the keepers in the country are unlicensed, why have we not seen any evidence of numerous successful prosecutions?
> In fact, the authorities that produced these figures are producing a damning indictement (sp?) of the act itself. As with any law, there are going to be a small proportion of people who will not abide by it, however, when the figure is as high as 90%, then that says there is something very wrong with the act itself, and it is not something that the recent bland and frankly, wishy washy review of the act will do anything to resolve. There has been no hard and fast standard that L.A's have to adhere to in terms of conditions of issue and costs; and these are the main things that I would venture are contributory to "off license" keeping. £2000 for an annual license is ridiculous, as is the attitude of "we don't issue DWA licenses in this borough/county/town"


My views exactly!


I think the figures are just randomly plucked out of the air!


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## southwest vipers

Graeme, these figures were not just plucked from thin air, they are the statistics. You must be familiar with the saying "Lies. Damn lies and statistics". Also, the reformed act will make for easier and more successful prosucutions. With all those illegal keepers out there, that adds up to a lot of revenue in fines.

Am I starting to sound cynical?


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## slippery42

southwest vipers said:


> Graeme, these figures were not just plucked from thin air, they are the statistics. You must be familiar with the saying "Lies. Damn lies and statistics". Also, the reformed act will make for easier and more successful prosucutions. With all those illegal keepers out there, that adds up to a lot of revenue in fines.
> 
> Am I starting to sound cynical?


Well if they Do start extracting money from these hundred or thousands of illegal keepers perhaps they will get enough revenue to lay off us businessmen who are trying to keep going in these iffy times.....bloody hell I'm in danger of getting on my high horse, bloody scroungers, bloody do gooders, bloody VAT man and its Christmas BAH HUMBUG!!!!


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## Owzy

I agree statistics can be bent to prove anypoint you want really. A good example is global warming... the same data has been used & abused by both sides to 'prove' points many times.

70% of statistics are lies anyway :whistling2:


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## stuartdouglas

southwest vipers said:


> Graeme, these figures were not just plucked from thin air, they are the statistics. You must be familiar with the saying "Lies. Damn lies and statistics". Also, the reformed act will make for easier and more successful prosucutions. With all those illegal keepers out there, that adds up to a lot of revenue in fines.
> 
> Am I starting to sound cynical?


it will only generate revenue if the L.A's completely adhere to the new reform and make their licensing clear, transparent, fair and achievable. If they continue to use ridiculous criteria and flat out refusals then they will lose their cases. besides all a person has to do is establish that one LA is setting more stringent requirements that another to win their case, especially if it is established that there are licensed keepers in the less stringent area


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## Ssthisto

Darn it, we missed being able to see this on BBC iPlayer by two measly hours.

Did anyone happen to tape it?


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## Jabba the mentor

ian14 said:


> That figure may be low, this is directly from the DEFRA site....
> 
> Ministerial replies to public concerns about the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 have, for a number of years, pointed to the need for a review of the legislation. These concerns include the RSPCA campaign opposing the keeping of wild animals in captivity, press reports suggesting exotics can be bought in pubs at ridiculously low prices , and the *Companion Animal Welfare Group’s suggestion that compliance with the 1976 Act might be as low as 1%. *There has been no review, however, owing to the pressure of other commitments. Much of the work will involve researching and comparing existing legislation, much of which is little known or understood, and putting the DWA into the context of other legislation. Departmental officials will be interviewed in Home Office and Defra to seek their experience. Local authorities (a representative sample at least) will similarly be interviewed to seek their experience. In addition the Zoos Forum, veterinary organisations and other relevant NGOs will also have an opportunity to contribute their experience and opinions.
> 
> And this is lifted from the review itself...
> 
> 
> 10.
> *Unlicensed animals*​
> It is inevitably difficult to measure the extent of unlicensed DWA keeping in England and Wales.
> 
> *Estimates from animal keeping organisations and the pet trade suggest an 85-95% rate of noncompliance,*
> however we have found no proof to support non-compliance of this magnitude. We
> have approached this subject in a number of ways and have attempted to make a quantitative
> assessment in addition to anecdotal opinion. Our research, and common sense, would suggest that
> those scheduled animals most likely to be kept without a licence are those which can be kept
> hidden from the public. It is extremely unlikely that there are any large cats or elephants that
> remain unlicensed in England and Wales. Much more likely is the illegal keeping of scheduled
> reptiles, particularly venomous snakes, which may be housed in a single room and are easily
> hidden from visitors.
> In order to try to obtain quantitative figures on the numbers of unlicensed animals, we requested
> information from a number of sources. We contacted the major insurance companies prepared to
> insure DWAs, the Animal Reception Centre at London's Heathrow Airport, and the CITES team​
> 
> 
> within DETR to try to obtain information on the number of animals in the country.​
> So perhaps not codswallop!​


:lol2::lol2: Me thinks its total codswallop.​ 
So if there saying 85 to 95% are noncomplince does that not mean if there was 100 DWA's in the UK there would be 850 to 950 people keeping without a DWA? Is that right or am I just being thick?​


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## ViperLover

Its a common fact that 80% of statistics are made up on the spot.


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## Jabba the mentor

ViperLover said:


> Its a common fact that 80% of statistics are made up on the spot.


Sounds to me like 80% of statistics to do with reptiles are made up by people that are suposed to be helping the hobby. But then 99% of keepers think the sun shines out of there :censor:


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## ViperLover

Jabba the mentor said:


> Sounds to me like 80% of statistics to do with reptiles are made up by people that are suposed to be helping the hobby. But then 99% of keepers think the sun shines out of there :censor:


 
Reffering to who?

And...TBH, statistics doesn't come into it. You will always, somewhere, someplace have an ignorant sod who wants to break the law by not getting a lisence.

And them you will always have decent, honest and respectable keepers who desperately want the animals, but the council won't give the lisence, therefore go unlisenced.


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## Jabba the mentor

ViperLover said:


> Reffering to who?
> 
> And...TBH, statistics doesn't come into it. You will always, somewhere, someplace have an ignorant sod who wants to break the law by not getting a lisence.
> 
> And them you will always have decent, honest and respectable keepers who desperately want the animals, but the council won't give the lisence, therefore go unlisenced.


Reffering to who?? Now now you know I cant name names as like I said 99% of keepers think there great


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