# CREE Led tech question



## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

On the future Pum tank, i'm going for a LED light fixture due to lack of space and also superior PAR ratings / low running costs.

However, I need help.

The tank dimensions will be 41cm wide x 46cm deep x 60cm tall
The lights will be these (x 6 of) : CREE XP-G R5 on Star PCB by LED-TECH.de

They will be ran at approx 700 mA with a suitable driver. and will sit approx 4cm above the tank - will the lumens output be enough for high level plants? Also I don't plan on adding optics, meaning a wide light spread but reduced light penetration at depths - optics reccomended?

Cheers for any help

Anthony


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

detail3r said:


> On the future Pum tank, i'm going for a LED light fixture due to lack of space and also superior PAR ratings / low running costs.
> 
> However, I need help.
> 
> ...


Ant firstly it might be worth contacting the company to see if they can be more specific about the lumens,139-498 if i've remembered correct is some difference.Second as a ball park, from the led we use which runs at 1200 lummens /m and we have used 1/2m per tank ie 600 lumen this will be ok for a 40cm deep tank but not so good on a 60cm,,thats about all my knowledge will give you mate,Ade or there is someone on denW that is using these, are better to ask,i'm pretty sure the cree are superior to ours but,as above dunno,enough to be helpful,but i think you'll need the heatsinks as well!!
Stu
ps check out post by Gludl on dendroboard


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> Ant firstly it might be worth contacting the company to see if they can be more specific about the lumens,139-498 if i've remembered correct is some difference.Second as a ball park, from the led we use which runs at 1200 lummens /m and we have used 1/2m per tank ie 600 lumen this will be ok for a 40cm deep tank but not so good on a 60cm,,thats about all my knowledge will give you mate,Ade or there is someone on denW that is using these, are better to ask,i'm pretty sure the cree are superior to ours but,as above dunno,enough to be helpful,but i think you'll need the heatsinks as well!!
> Stu
> ps check out post by Gludl on dendroboard


Yeah, i've sent them an e-mail and hope they contact me before I get the tank installed, as I need to fit the lights before the tank otherwise there's not enough space to retro-fit. If the cost comes close to £100, I think i'll just opt for another GroBeam 1000ND w/ sunrise and sunset controller.

Also, currently running the T5HO light, 4 heatmats, 2 stats and MK system off one extension / plug socket atm - would this cause possible overload leading to the RCDs tripping? I only ask as they did last night, lol.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I`ve got a 45cm cube using 5 of these leds and although it may not look as bright as a T5 i`m seeing plant growth.
I also tried the same 5 leds on a 60cm deep viv and the light was hitting the bottom easily.
I`ve posted 2 photo`s to let you see the difference.
60cm high exo terra, one with exo bulbs and the other with 5 XP-G-R5 leds.

Mike

Exo bulbs.









Leds


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Cheers for the reply. LED light always 'looks' underwhelming, but that's because it produces less pleasing visible light and greater PAR which is beneficial to the plants - which is good imo.

Can you give me a run down of all the components you used / ordered? PM me if preferable.

Regards

Anthony


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Just a quicky :

I have seen this TMC 1500 XG Ultima light and thought about using it a few times. It puts out 1850 lumens but is primarily 9000k output - however just how harmful is this to the plants? As i'm sure I read on DB that anything under 20k is ideal.

Link to product :

TMC: Aquarium Products - AquaBeam1500 XG Ultima

And the LED spectra in this PDF :

http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/data/led-spectra.pdf

Obviously the main peak is outside the 'ideal' but it also has a peak near the 580nm spectrum also....

Would / could this work?

Cheers

Anthony


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

It isn't harmful to plants, not at all. 9,000k is just very 'white' looking is all, hence they don't often get used for things like vivs or freshwater aquariums, where the 'yellower' look of 5,000k to 7,000k is often preferred as it's less 'stark'.

Ade


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

I've put the same reply on here as I did on FB Ade, in case any others want to add anything :

I have a decsion to make - 
1) Building my own, which comprises 10 x 6500k XPG, 350mA driver, 40 deg optics, heatsinks, 3mm aluminium sheet + soldering iron = £220, which means a good spread of light as I can arrange them where I want 

2) GroBeam 1000ND w/controller, same as before but narrow tile / optics and only 800 lumens = £220 

3) AquaRay 1500 XG Ultima - More powerful than the Grobeam but 9000k XPGs with, i'd assume a poor CRI but 1850 lumens so should see good plant growth and also a warranty - £220 w/out controller initially.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

Hi detail3r,i don't know much about led's and i had the same confusion as what to do if to change to leds or stick with t.5's especially when it includes cost, running power,and possible heat,

but one good place to check out before you make a decision is the Green machine in wrexham there a leading uk aquatic plant speciallist,and the owner Jim is very helpfull and could give you some advice...they actually have a section on there veiw on led's hope it helps.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

leonh said:


> Hi detail3r,i don't know much about led's and i had the same confusion as what to do if to change to leds or stick with t.5's especially when it includes cost, running power,and possible heat,
> 
> but one good place to check out before you make a decision is the Green machine in wrexham there a leading uk aquatic plant speciallist,and the owner Jim is very helpfull and could give you some advice...they actually have a section on there veiw on led's hope it helps.


I should have added :

While I have Twin T5 HO lights on one vivarium, I cannot install these in the vivs lower in the rack, as the space available is only 5cm! So i'm stuck with LEDs, and I don't mind paying for quality.

A further footnote - the self build cost is actually £150 not £220, I had doubled up optics / leds without realising:blush:

Cheers

Anthony


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

oh right fair enough with that amount of space led's it is then:lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> I`ve got a 45cm cube using 5 of these leds and although it may not look as bright as a T5 i`m seeing plant growth.
> I also tried the same 5 leds on a 60cm deep viv and the light was hitting the bottom easily.
> I`ve posted 2 photo`s to let you see the difference.
> 60cm high exo terra, one with exo bulbs and the other with 5 XP-G-R5 leds.
> ...


That's surprisingly good, especially compared to the Exo bulbs- but I know they are pants, anyway:lol2:.

My only problem would be the 'harshness' of the white light.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> That's surprisingly good, especially compared to the Exo bulbs- but I know they are pants, anyway:lol2:.
> 
> My only problem would be the 'harshness' of the white light.


2 ways that can be resolved. Mix 6500k and 5000k (or even 4000k) which will have a warmer CRI, and also add optics to diffuse the light (I'll possibly be doing this). Also I imagine the photosynthetically active radiation will be much greater compared to CFs.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

leonh said:


> oh right fair enough with that amount of space led's it is then:lol2:


Yep, i'll keep this thread updated. Just in dicussion with a lighting tech at the TMC company regarding using the Aquaray 1500XG Ultima (with that name it HAS to be good!) and it's suitability for none marine applications.


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## leonh (Nov 19, 2008)

yeah it will be intresting to see how this goes,also good luck on what you deicide to choose,plus one benefit i suppose is the majority of leds are designed to penetrate water which filters out light,so in viv without this obsticle could work well.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

leonh said:


> yeah it will be intresting to see how this goes,also good luck on what you deicide to choose,plus one benefit i suppose is the majority of leds are designed to penetrate water which filters out light,so in viv without this obsticle could work well.


While this is true, unlike aquarists tanks, whose only obstacle is water - we have glass in the way instead (although at least it's optiwhite glass).


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

can,i see a pic of the rack
cheers
stu


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> can,i see a pic of the rack
> cheers
> stu


No, for logistical reasons..... (It's upside down and drying:lol2 - and it's just a cr*ppy double stand made by me - nothing special.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

soundstounite said:


> can,i see a pic of the rack
> cheers
> stu


It isn't the nicest thing (the melamine was reclaimed), but it's sturdy and will house the Terribs exo on top, and Richies vivs underneath :










The space where the LEDs will sit (Grobeam tile one side, DIY tile the other),and the 2 x 2 wood will sit just 2cm from the top of the tanks(Please excuse the marks, I moved the bracing sections in order to make more space for the LEDs) :


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

detail3r said:


> It isn't the nicest thing (the melamine was reclaimed), but it's sturdy and will house the Terribs exo on top, and Richies vivs underneath :
> 
> image
> 
> ...


 That's a nifty little unit! :2thumb:


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> That's a nifty little unit! :2thumb:


Cheers, the melamine will be completely covered anyway, so all that will be visible is the black woodwork, which will match the Exo nicely


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Can someone help me out here? I'm looking at the lumens output figures for the XP-G R4 and R5 leds, and but can't figure out what lumens are produced @ 350 mA :

CREE XP-G R5 on Star PCB by LED-TECH.de

If it's the minimum 139 Lumens, then (as I plan) to add 6 of each that equates to 6 x 139 = 1668 lumens. This seems low and is also less than that of the 1500XG Ultima which with 10 9000k XP-Gs produces 1850 lumens @ 700mA. What would you guys do? Self build and a more desirable K and CRI index but no warranty? Or the 1500 which costs slightly more, harsher and less preferable K / CRI but with warranty and an easy solution?

Also, I got this reply from Gyles Wescott, technical lighting consultant at TMC and has proved a great help both with this and the replacement GroBeam unit I got :

" Yes I understand – I think the message we are putting out is that although the 1500XG Ocean White is designated as a MARINE product, the 9000K colour temperature is very effective over planted displays as well, especially over deeper displays.

In my own case, I have a 120 x 60 x 40 planted display, and I prefer to use the 6500K GroBeams as my dim-up and dim-down lights (dawn and dusk), with the 1500XG delivering it’s more intense 9000K during the peak phase of my photoperiod in the middle of the day (all my lights are run via our 8-way MultiController).

That said, I have many customers who use the 1500XG exclusively because they prefer the “whiter”, cooler colour temperature. I does also put out more total light than the GroBeams so PAR values will be slightly higher, and this can be important for more demanding plants in slightly deeper water.

To summarise then, the 1500XG should deliver excellent results as a stand-alone solution on a planted tank "


I'd appreciate your thoughts.


Regards


Anthony


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

A 24 watt T5HO gives off 1900 Lumens roughly, however only about half of that ever actually ends up where you want it, where with LEDs ALL of the light goes where you want it, hence you need less lumens output.

As to the choice between DIY and buying a TMC unit, you know full well I'd go for the TMC unit. 1) The PSU is easily replaced for a fairly low cost, 2) the option to add a computer controller that costs a lot less than the high end ones, 3) very long guarantee on the LED unit itself (you wont get that with components) and 4) the excellent TMC customer service. That's not even mentioning the fact you don't have to do all that work. lol

For the record, I have grown freshwater plants under 10,000k T5HOs before now, back when I first got my big luminaire it came with these. Plants grew absolutely fine, I just didn't like the look of the light. 9,000k wont be as blue as these even, and in fact I have 2 8,000k tubes in that fitting, combined with GroLux tubes. It gives a really good colour of light and colours absolutely pop under them. If the colour isn't quite what you like, put some low power red LEDs on there (about £5 a strip on ebay) with it and these will offset the starkness for you, and bring out reds better.

Ade


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> A 24 watt T5HO gives off 1900 Lumens roughly, however only about half of that ever actually ends up where you want it, where with LEDs ALL of the light goes where you want it, hence you need less lumens output.
> 
> As to the choice between DIY and buying a TMC unit, you know full well I'd go for the TMC unit. 1) The PSU is easily replaced for a fairly low cost, 2) the option to add a computer controller that costs a lot less than the high end ones, 3) very long guarantee on the LED unit itself (you wont get that with components) and 4) the excellent TMC customer service. That's not even mentioning the fact you don't have to do all that work. lol
> 
> ...


After discussion with TMC, and the fact that the lighting unit has a 5 year warranty, i've decided i'm going to order the 1500XG Ultima, with no power controller initially, as there is one tailored for the 1500, meaning it will run at 1000 mA, so increased lumens output 

With the controller it works out about £300 but for the quality and peace of mind with the warranty it's worth it.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

After reading this article :

Aqua Ray | Aquarium Article Digest

I'm again in a dilemma - this time between the 1500XG and another GroBeam 1000ND. As it states (and I read somewhere else also), that while the overall lumens output of the XG is greater, the PAR and PUR figures are less overall, so it's actually suited to SHALLOWER tanks?!


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## westie1 (Oct 28, 2009)

Sorry if this has been said already but

nanoreef.com

it is an awesome site with all things led far beyond most uk sites. 
Iv been running led for almost 2 years with cree and getting good coral growth ect with them. They are dam bright and easy to diy with loads of builds on that site although the cool white and royal blues used for marines need changing for more red, warm whites ect i presume for plant growth. And i havent been using mega expensive drivers such as meanwell but ebay £5 jobbies.
Thought id just try and help out 

Oh and cutter in australia and erm....deal extream in the US are good places for leds!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Uhm, no. lol To expand:-

In water, especially salt water, red light is absorbed VERY quickly, hence most organisms that utilise photosythesis have adapted to using light from the blue end of the spectrum as blue wavelengths penetrate to a greater depth.

Terrestrial plants however live in air, red light can travel considerable distances in air, so these plants are adapted to utilise both red wavelengths and blue wavelengths, which is why the PAR of the 1500XG would be lower than the 1000ND, despite the lumens output been higher.

So with a 1000ND, the light will LOOK duller but will have more USEABLE light radiation for the terrestrial plants, containing more red wavelength light, whilst the 1500HG emits more light at the blue end of the spectrum and less at the red end. HOWEVER, it is usually the case that all but the most light demanding terrestrial plants will grow under almost any light you prove them with. lol

Lighting reef tanks has very little in common though with lighting vivariums, the overlapping area been freshwater planted aquariums.

The proof of this, I was actually using 2700k lighting for a short while (warm white) over a 60cm viv. Plant growth was ASTOUNDING under this, even more so than under 6,500k lighting. It looked rubbish though. lol Much like using purple (red and blue) light plant growth tubes, you'd get stunning plant growth, but your viv looks rubbish. 

Ant, you know I favour the 1000ND, but was under the impression you were set on the 1500XG. You know yourself though you can't go far wrong with a 1000ND, or heck even the 500s. You would then also have the option of upgrading your current controller (2 channel I believe, like mine?) with one of the newer 8 channel ones, and connecting BOTH 1000NDs to this and still having 4 sockets free. lol http://www.aquacadabra.co.uk/AquaRay-MultiControl-8-LED-Lighting-Controller.html

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Uhm, no. lol To expand:-
> 
> In water, especially salt water, red light is absorbed VERY quickly, hence most organisms that utilise photosythesis have adapted to using light from the blue end of the spectrum as blue wavelengths penetrate to a greater depth.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I used to use Growlux tubes- but they make the whole tank look ill!


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

It makes logical sense to light with another GroBeam, so this + controller will be ordered on Monday. 

I also plan on swapping the lighting on the Terribs vivarium for 2 x GroBeam 1000NDs plus either 1 x 1500 XG or Aquaray 1000 Marine white in the near future 

Also some interesting facts on LED lighting and how Lumens figures aren't the be all and end all  :

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html#par


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

No an LED even crees cant provide enough lumens for plants to grow healthily. you may be able to grow moss but even that would struggle.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

buddah said:


> No an LED even crees cant provide enough lumens for plants to grow healthily. you may be able to grow moss but even that would struggle.


Congratulations on been completely and utterly wrong. :lol2:









The only lighting on that viv is my TMC AquaGro Grobeam 1000ND, which contains 10 Cree LEDs...

I had to remove the cisssus discolor, it grows too fast in there.

Ade


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

buddah said:


> No an LED even crees cant provide enough lumens for plants to grow healthily. you may be able to grow moss but even that would struggle.


Did you even bother to read the link I provided earlier? They are designed to replaced MH lights FFS - get a grip.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Congratulations on been completely and utterly wrong. :lol2:
> image
> 
> The only lighting on that viv is my TMC AquaGro Grobeam 1000ND, which contains 10 Cree LEDs...
> ...





detail3r said:


> Did you even bother to read the link I provided earlier? They are designed to replaced MH lights FFS - get a grip.


:lol2::lol2::lol2:

Phew! Now I've stopped laughing and caught my breath, are these available apart from online?


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

detail3r said:


> Did you even bother to read the link I provided earlier? They are designed to replaced MH lights FFS - get a grip.


Crikey sorry sweetheart some things rattled your cage, you should take your own advice.


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Congratulations on been completely and utterly wrong. :lol2:
> image
> 
> The only lighting on that viv is my TMC AquaGro Grobeam 1000ND, which contains 10 Cree LEDs...
> ...


I stand corrected, superb setup :2thumb:


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