# genetic help please



## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

Genetic questions




Having read as much stuff as I can, my first question is about punnet squares

Male genetics go along the top, female down the side,
Dominant trait letters are written in UPPERCASE, 
Mutation trait in lower case?
But are there specific letters for different Dominant traits and mutations or do you just make them up to suit the animal?

could someone please show me what the top row for a male “visual” Bell Enigma with two red eyes would be?

Is it E,b,Eb,eB

Or just Eb,Eb,

And the side row for a Female visual Macksnow Bell would be

 M,b, Mb,mB

Or would just it be Mb, Mb

Or have I got it really wrong, I want to understand it all so please answer in simple terms but fully (if that’s possible)

thanks


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Genes are in pairs, so your red-eyed Bell Enigma (do you mean red eyes like RAPTOR eyes?) would be displayed on his own as:

*Ee* (Enigma/Not-Enigma) *bb* (Bell/Bell) *cc* (Eclipse/Eclipse).

And I would do it across the top of the punnett square as Eebbcc / Eebbcc - assuming that'd cover all the possibilities, and just remember whether I was using the dominant Enigma or the recessive not-enigma on the left/right side.

Mack Snow Bell would be Mm (codominant Mack/Not-Mack) bb (Bell/Bell).

With the combination you're looking at (four different traits) it'd be easier to work it out as percentages than it is to work it out in a punnett square!


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

err could you please make it simpler?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Working with four different genes there really isn't "simpler".

Eclipse is one gene (the one that makes solid-coloured eyes).
Mack Snow is one gene (the one that reduces orange/yellow background colour).
Enigma is one gene (the one that changes the pattern)
Bell Albino is one gene (the one that removes black pigment)

So if I am trying to work out what the offspring of a Mack Bell Albino and an Eclipse Bell Enigma are, I'll do the percentages rather than a punnett square:

100% of them HAVE to be Bell albino because both parents are.
NONE of them will be visual Eclipse because only one parent is - but they will all be hets.
That gives you 100% Bell het Eclipse, of which:
The Mack Snow has a 50% chance of passing on the Mack gene.
Therefore you have 50% Bell het Eclipse, not Mack and 50% Mack Bell het eclipse.
And the Enigma also has a 50% chance of passing on the Enigma gene, so you divide your previous results in half for:

25% chance Bell Het Eclipse
25% chance Bell Enigma het Eclipse
25% chance Mack Bell het Eclipse
25% chance Mack Bell Enigma het Eclipse


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

thanks for that, i'll some homework and be back with another question


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Working with four different genes there really isn't "simpler".
> 
> Eclipse is one gene (the one that makes solid-coloured eyes).
> Mack Snow is one gene (the one that reduces orange/yellow background colour).
> ...


So if I’ve understood all this and I apply it using the same male red eyed enigma and use my (visual) Bell Sunglow (Genetic Makeup= Super Hypo/ Albino/ Carrot tail) female

100% of them HAVE to be Bell albino because both parents are.
NONE of them will be visual Eclipse because only one parent is - but they will all be hets.

That gives me 100% Bell het Eclipse, of which:

The Sunglow has a 50% chance of passing on the SuerHypo gene (with differing amounts of CT)

Therefore I should have 50% Bell het Eclipse, not Mack 

 50% Mack Bell het eclipse.

The Enigma also has a 50% chance of passing on the Enigma gene,

so I divide I previous results in half for:

25% chance Bell Het Eclipse
25% chance Bell Enigma het Eclipse
25% chance Sunglow (super hypo) het Eclipse


25% chance of a combined Sunglow/Enigma het Eclipse (what would that be called)


I’ve tried doing it one step at a time is this correct?


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

pmamhayes said:


> So if I’ve understood all this and I apply it using the same male red eyed enigma and use my (visual) Bell Sunglow (Genetic Makeup= Super Hypo/ Albino/ Carrot tail) female
> 
> 100% of them HAVE to be Bell albino because both parents are.
> NONE of them will be visual Eclipse because only one parent is - but they will all be hets.
> ...


 
can i just ask, where did you get a bell enigma with eclipse eyes from? RADAR enigma's haven't been released as far as i'm aware, can i see a pic please?


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

boywonder said:


> can i just ask, where did you get a bell enigma with eclipse eyes from? RADAR enigma's haven't been released as far as i'm aware, can i see a pic please?


I didnt actully say he had eclipse eyes, I said red eyes, I have no experance with eclipes or red eyes, heres a early pic, his eyes are still the same..










heres a later picture











he came from PS geckos and was sold as a two red eyed bell enigma


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

That's a bit misleading then - *all* Bell Albino enigmas will have red/pink eyes.

That simplifies your results a bit - remove the "het eclipse" from ALL the results.


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

sorry about that didnt mean to mislead you, did I get my second permitation correct?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

pmamhayes said:


> So if I’ve understood all this and I apply it using the same male red eyed enigma and use my (visual) Bell Sunglow (Genetic Makeup= Super Hypo/ Albino/ Carrot tail) female
> I’ve tried doing it one step at a time is this correct?


This is even easier.

All the offspring will be Bell albinos, because both parents are.
All of the offspring will be hypos, because one parent is homozygous ("super") hypo - het hypo is a visual hypo - so they'll all be Bell Sunglows.
Half of them will be Bell Sunglow Enigmas.


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

Ok I think Ive got it now,

So another pairing will be a female Macksnow Tremper albino het BB (has got two pinkish eyes)

1st male choice would be Macksnow no know hets

100% macksnows poss 50% het BB
Of which 50% T albino poss 50% het BB

What about S Snows were would they come in? 25%??


Or Second choice male for this matting

T Hybino

I’ve got no idea on this


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Ok, Mack snow Tremper albino het Blizzard to Mack Snow would be:

25% Normal het albino, possible het blizzard (didn't get Mack Snow from EITHER parent)
50% Mack Snow het albino, possible het Blizzard (Got Mack snow from one parent or the other but not both)
25% Super Snow het albino, possible het blizzard (Got mack snow from both parents).

You wouldn't get any visual albinos UNLESS your male Mack Snow was het Tremper Albino, because Albino is a recessive trait.

The Mack Snow Tremper het Blizzard female crossed to Tremper Hybino, you'd get all Tremper Albinos - and probably all Hybinos. 50% of those would be Mack Snow Albinos. And they'd all be possible het Blizzards.


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Ok, Mack snow Tremper albino het Blizzard to Mack Snow would be:
> 
> 25% Normal het albino, possible het blizzard (didn't get Mack Snow from EITHER parent)
> 50% Mack Snow het albino, possible het Blizzard (Got Mack snow from one parent or the other but not both)
> ...


so if I breed either male, then incubate for male, 
then pick the 

(in the case of of the snow male) best SS (should i get one AND if it was het BB)and breed back to the mother I would get???

or (in the case of the hybiono) the best macksnow hybino (and hopeing it WAS het BB) I would get???


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, you only have a 50/50 chance of any of those babies being het for blizzard. 

With the first one, you'd get snows and super snows, half of which would be expected to be albino; if you lucked out and picked a male who was het for blizzard you might also get blizzard snows, blizzard super snows, blazing blizzard snows and blazing blizzard super snows.

Best mack hybino, you'd get all albinos/hybinos. A quarter of them would be expected to be normal not-macks; a quarter of them would be expected to be super snows and half of them would be expected to be macks. If you were lucky and picked a male who was het blizzard, you'd get a quarter again of the above results plus blizzard


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Well, you only have a 50/50 chance of any of those babies being het for blizzard.
> 
> With the first one, you'd get snows and super snows, half of which would be expected to be albino; if you lucked out and picked a male who was het for blizzard you might also get blizzard snows, blizzard super snows, blazing blizzard snows and blazing blizzard super snows.
> 
> Best mack hybino, you'd get all albinos/hybinos. A quarter of them would be expected to be normal not-macks; a quarter of them would be expected to be super snows and half of them would be expected to be macks. If you were lucky and picked a male who was het blizzard, you'd get a quarter again of the above results plus blizzard


so whichever male I use, (and i'm thinking the macksnow would be more interesting) I would be better off incubating for female (which would probibly make selling any surpluse ofspring easier) and buy in (or borrow) a good male visual BB to mate with severail of the grown on hatchlings.

thanks for the help I'll do a bit more homework


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

pmamhayes said:


> Genetic questions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen it female across the top and female across the side. Either way works, as long as you know which animal is male and which is female.


pmamhayes said:


> Dominant trait letters are written in UPPERCASE,
> Mutation trait in lower case?
> But are there specific letters for different Dominant traits and mutations or do you just make them up to suit the animal?


Dominant or codominant gene - first letter upper case, other letters (if any) lower case. Example: Sa for the salmon mutant gene, a dominant mutant gene in the boa constrictor.

Recessive gene - all letters lower case. Example: a for amelanistic, a recessive mutant gene in the corn snake.

Symbols should reference the mutation, not the normal appearance.

Symbols are specific once they have been published in a scientific journal, like the Journal of Heredity. If you don't know the specific symbol or one has not been established, the symbol can be made up to fit the case.

Dominant upper case and recessive lower case goes all the way back to Mendel. The pro geneticists have had to make some modifications in the last 100 years, such as the use of the plus character for the wild type gene at each locus. See section 3.1 of the guidelines for gene nomenclature for the rat and mouse:

MGI-Rules for Nomenclature of Genes, Genetic Markers, Alleles, and Mutations in Mouse and Rat


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## pmamhayes (Jun 13, 2007)

paulh said:


> I've seen it female across the top and female across the side. Either way works, as long as you know which animal is male and which is female.
> 
> 
> Dominant or codominant gene - first letter upper case, other letters (if any) lower case. Example: Sa for the salmon mutant gene, a dominant mutant gene in the boa constrictor.
> ...


thanks for the link, I did read it but most of went over my head, I'll try again later


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