# Pedigree cats.... always a housecat?



## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

If you have a pedigree cat, does it have to be a housecat (to stop it getting stolen etc i suppose) or does anyone have pedigree cats that they let come and go like a moggy?

A friend of mine has 2 Siamese, but I couldnt bare to keep a cat if I had to keep it inside all the time, I just don't think its fair because its their nature to roam. Her Siamese are always trying to get out and 'window watching' and its upsetting to see them contained. Of course if you had a lazy cat that didnt want to go out it'd be different.lol 

I would love to own a Maine **** some day, but wouldn't if it had to be a housecat.

Does anyone have a pedigree cat that's not a housecat?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Mine have an enclosed garden that they cant get out of.It has a wire overhang


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

i did have, she was a rescue pedigree somali with a history of all sort of issues! i had her jabbed, and let her discover freedom, and she had a blissful summer being a garden cat, lazing in the sun, hunting dragon flies..

then unfortunately fell ill and died in the autumn.. quite possibly as a result of being given the vaccinations for feline leukemia..

i'll never know if keeping her as a house cat, and not vaccinating, would have made a difference, but at least she got to be a cat for 6 months, instead of being shut in an breeding block in someones backgarden for the rest of her life...


Willow


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> If you have a pedigree cat, does it have to be a housecat (to stop it getting stolen etc i suppose) or does anyone have pedigree cats that they let come and go like a moggy?
> 
> A friend of mine has 2 Siamese, but I couldnt bare to keep a cat if I had to keep it inside all the time, I just don't think its fair because its their nature to roam. Her Siamese are always trying to get out and 'window watching' and its upsetting to see them contained. Of course if you had a lazy cat that didnt want to go out it'd be different.lol
> 
> ...


No, but I have a moggie that's a housecat! Same as I keep my snakes indoors, in appropriate enclosures, and not wandering at random to be knocked over/stolen/injured/catch diseases/crap on other people's property, I consider it my responsibility as a cat owner to provide an appropriate enclosure (my house!) and enrichment for my cats to keep them healthy, happy, and amused indoors. I would like an enclosed garden for them, eventually. It's not possible where I live at the moment but in the future 

I wouldn't sell a kitten to a home that wanted to let it roam unsupervised either, most cat breeders I know wouldn't.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Nerys, Willow was beautiful! sorry to hear about her passing, but as you say, at least she had a good life with you! I wasnt aware there were problems with vaccinations in cats? Is it a big issue?

Toyah, I dont know nearly enough about cats to debate over the rights and wrongs of keeping them 'safe' inside, but i do know that all the housecats ive ever met have been desperate to get outside, no matter how lovely the house. They are born to wander and roam and hunt, how can they do that inside? In the same way as I wouldnt keep an arboreal gecko in a viv where it couldnt climb, how can you keep a cat inside where it cant roam?



> wouldn't sell a kitten to a home that wanted to let it roam unsupervised either


what do you consider 'unsupervised'? are you saying you actually disagree with catflaps then?


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

round here they would get stolen.
ginger spent 3 whole years as a stray.. he cant be kept in, he goes mental. 
Zingi also goes crazy and actually harme dhimself on severl occasions, we tried to keep him in as he has FLUTD, the kittens will go otut sid ewhen old enough, not fair to let two outside but not the others.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> what do you consider 'unsupervised'? are you saying you actually disagree with catflaps then?


many people think its wrong to let them roam outside. (i do however let all mine roam)

ferog has posted her garden (cant find them) enclosed garden .


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Mine use the dog flap to come and go as they please. Their garden is full of shrubs,trees to climb and a wildlife pond and ist not very big really but they love it.We have a few high posts for them to climb and an outdoor cat scratcher too.A lot of my cats cant even be bothered going out anymore,They lie on top of the 2 big vivs we have or sleep in the heated beds or on the floor to ceiling scratcher we have. Really they dont miss what they have never had and totally indoor cats are usually very happy to be this. It beats all the worry and stress of them getting run over, or injured or lost.


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## _simon_ (Nov 27, 2007)

toyah said:


> No, but I have a moggie that's a housecat! Same as I keep my snakes indoors, in appropriate enclosures, and not wandering at random to be knocked over/stolen/injured/catch diseases/crap on other people's property, I consider it my responsibility as a cat owner to provide an appropriate enclosure (my house!) and enrichment for my cats to keep them healthy, happy, and amused indoors. I would like an enclosed garden for them, eventually. It's not possible where I live at the moment but in the future
> 
> I wouldn't sell a kitten to a home that wanted to let it roam unsupervised either, most cat breeders I know wouldn't.


I totally agree. Our cat is a house cat as well. Growing up we had 3 cats all killed by traffic and my family's next door neighbours evil child killed our other neighbours cat. With so many dangers out there I'd be constantly worried.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Any cat that comes into my house must be a house cat. After losing one to who knows where (I have an idea, but am not going into it now), I won't take the risk again.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

even in the countryside, we still have the odd traffic accident.. a combine hit one of ours in the fields last year.. 

"blood" cats and jabs. i believe there can be issues yes. i did a lot of looking up about it at the time, most of which i could not quote for facts now, but there is a load of stuff on the net about it around somewhere.

all 6 cats here free roam, or will do once the two smallest kittens can get in and out of the cat window.. personally i like to let my cats out, not keep them in, but i know its a very heated topic, and many people do not do what i do.. (mind you the same can be said for many parts of life!)

N


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> i do know that all the housecats ive ever met have been desperate to get outside, no matter how lovely the house. They are born to wander and roam and hunt, how can they do that inside? In the same way as I wouldnt keep an arboreal gecko in a viv where it couldnt climb, how can you keep a cat inside where it cant roam?


Arboreal geckos are meant to climb and roam over distances - we give them really quite small vivariums relative to their natural range. A cat, given a decent sized house, probably has more room in relation to its size than a gecko does (it can roam in a house further than the gecko can climb in a viv!), but the more important thing is to provide mental stimulation for a cat.

Many people expect to be able to dump a cat into a human household, and for it to be happy - to make a cat happy and content you need to provide toys, games, places to hide, to perch, to explore, interesting things, food hunts, human interaction, and these things need to be changed regularly in order to keep their attention.

I don't *disagree* with cat flaps, I can see why some people use them - but I certainly wouldn't use a catflap that allowed my cats to wander the streets on their own (I would be fine with a catflap leading onto an enclosed and escape-proof garden). If people want to let them roam unsupervised then that's their own decision, but I don't agree with it and I wouldn't sell a kitten to that situation is all I can say.


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## 11krage (Mar 9, 2008)

Every person I know who has owned an outdoor cat has had a cat who has been hit by a car. Wandering may be natural to cats (and dogs, and lots of other animals) but this world we're in isn't natural anymore. If i lived in the country i might consider having a wandering cat, but in this world with all its many man made hazards, its just not worth the risk. Enrichment for my indoor cat is always at the top of my list, as well as toys and games i do what we have learnt to do with dogs and challenge her mind by making her work and learn for food and treats. 

My big plans when i have enough money to buy my perfect house is to build a big outdoor enclosure for her and any future cats to wander and explore as they please.


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## *H* (Jun 17, 2007)

Thats a hard one wether to let them out or not......... I'm completely torn down the middle with that one. Previously I would have said "it's in a cat's nature to roam and hunt, keeping them inside is cruel, you don't own a cat" But now after loosing two cats because I let them out........... I don't know, predigree or not, whats best for them? If I was ever get another cat (no plans what so ever as it still 'stings' way too much) It'll be a hard decission..... Could I ignore their pleas to go outside? Could I keep them shacked up like that? But then could I risk them being injured, hurt, pinched or worse? I really don't know


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Wow i never realised this was such a heated topic. Thanks for your replies everyone.

I guess if I do want a Maine **** i'll have to move into the middle of nowhere to avoid it getting in a traffic accident!


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## cs3ae (Aug 24, 2008)

My mum lets all of her cats out and they do seem to enjoy being able to come and go. In fact they have one who refuses to come in the house and hasn't done for the last six months.
I would love to let mine out especcially when I see them looking out the window but it is just not possible where I live. I live right next to a very busy dual carriage way and train track. 
I had cat at my parents and really want her to take her with me when I moved, After much soul searching i decided it wasnt fair as she loved going out and used to spend hours in the garden. Instead I got two kittens who had never been out. Sadly my other cat got run over and killed a week after I moved and for a long time I wished id taken her with me as at least she would still be alive. Deep down however i know she would never have been happy spending the rest of her life inside.


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## Heavenlyhogs (May 15, 2008)

I have a colour point persian...i didn't start letting him outside unattended for a few months.Had him castrated so he wouldn't disappear and never had a problem.He's now 7


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

i have 2 pedigrees, a bengal and a devon rex. 

If i kept the bengal in he would be unhappy and frustrated and bouncing off the walls/mauling the other cat and me (I know this because we initially kept him as a house cat, and also when we moved house he was kept in for a bit). He went missing for 8 days this year, and i feared he had been killed in an accident. He turned up (we found out later the old lady up the road had died and presume he had been shut in her house bcause her cat had died and she missed it so might have been feeding ours) and I still let him out every day because i know that is what is best for him. He used to come home smelling of cigarettes and perfume in our old house so i reckon he is having a whale of a time wherever he goes.

the devon has zero interest in going outside, and is a happy little housecat with a little play in the evenings she feels fulfilled. 

so it 100% depends on the individual cat's temperament. Having said that, I always choose houses to live in which are on a nice quiet close so i reduce the risk of him stepping out of the house and being mown down. He is also fully insured, so should the worst happen he is covered for treatment.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

missk said:


> *so it 100% depends on the individual cat's temperament.*


definatly.. no matter how many lareg climbing trees, toys boxes food treats blah blah attention etc etc.. my cats get...

when we had to keep zingi in for nearly a year beacuse of his FLUTD.. he was so destressed, He harme dhimself so so many times, was awful to watch. awful 

ginger now is getting old so would prefer to have his cushion.. he sleeps on it all day everyday unless he needs the loo or food.. he will fight you for his cushion!!




























go near it, and you will suffer! lol seriously.


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## han (Feb 26, 2007)

A lot depends on the breeders too. We have three ragdolls, and none of the breeders would sell a ragdoll to a home unless it was a guaranteed house cat. All 3 of ours could easily get into our window sills, but they don't. Ragdolls are renowned for being too trusting and always getting run over.
I do also think with alot of pedigree house cats it is bred in to them. If their parent, grandparents, great grandparents etc were never let out, then it's just their way of life.
None of ours ever try to get out when we open the door, so they must be happy


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## Jayne2269 (Sep 14, 2007)

I have 3 cats, one being a siamese and they all go out with no problems, they used to be house cats when we lived in a flat but they were so eager to get out, now we live in a house and they come and go as they please they have calmed down a lot too!


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

I have a moggie and she's a house cat. I've had to many experiences with my three old girls to let a cat free roam now. I really don't trust people. Libby is very content being a house cat. She has plenty of toys,interaction, scratch posts, places to climb,hide etc. She never pines to be outside, even though she has access to the garden. It's all she's known, and she's happy. We simulate hunts inside etc with her so she still gets to be a cat. But i really don't trust people. I've had some bratty teens try to strap a firework to Sophie many moons ago, i've had a batty old neighbour try to steal our largest softest cat, and we now live quite near a road...so for me the risk is to great.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Katiexx said:


> i've had a batty old neighbour try to steal our largest softest cat,


Yeah, we got confronted by a neighbour not long after we had Jonesy, our younger cat, home from the vet to have nearly all his teeth removed (we couldn't understand how his teeth got so bad given he had biscuits at our house) ... I put a note on his collar asking that he not be fed because I had my suspicions and needed to be able to give him meds with his food.

Couple days later neighbour comes to the door asking why she can't feed her cat any more, he loves his bowl of skimmed milk of an evening...

Funny, she wasn't so keen on him being HER cat when we asked if she wanted to contribute to the vet's bill having his teeth sorted.

If my two weren't used to being able to go out, I would have kept them indoors - and initially we tried to keep Ripley, our first cat, as an indoor cat, right up until mother-in-law sabotaged that by leaving doors open without telling us. I do not think it's fair to take a cat that is USED to going out and start confining it but if the cat has never been allowed out except on a lead I do not believe they really miss it.


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## *Tasha* (May 11, 2008)

We have two cats, both moggies. Penny loves to go outside, there'd be no way we could keep her in, even after someone kicked her so hard that the side that was kicked dented inwards and her lungs were bruised. 

We lost Smog earlier this year to traffic. So when we later bought Dodge as a kitten we decided to keep him inside. For us it's too much of a risk, we let him out for a quick supervised roam in the garden and has plenty of toys and things to do inside. The only reason we don't make Penny stay inside is that she's used to going out and it wouldn't be fair.


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## diggyc (Nov 24, 2007)

mine are let out when they want, and come in twice a day...
i have had quite a few cats , all free-roaming, and have never had any problems with traffic, but i guess its going to happen one day...
mind you, we live on a very quiet road...


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Quite honestly I think there are far more reasons to keep a cat in whether it’s a pedigree or a non-pedigree – after all the only difference is the price you pay. Presumably we all love our cats whether they are pedigree or not! There are incurable diseases that you cannot vaccinate against, traffic today is a whole different ballgame to what it was years ago when everyone allowed their cats to roam, people think they’re lost and take them home, people like the look of them and steal them and worst of all, people take them for all sorts of nefarious purposes, such as dog fighters and badger baiters to encourage their dogs to fight. I’m reliably informed that they particularly like Siamese cats for this purpose because Siamese are incredible fighters and don’t give up easily!!!

Surely it’s in a dog’s nature to roam too, but everyone seems to be quite happy to keep their dogs indoors or confined to a garden unless they’re being taken out by their owners?

My garden is catproofed so my cats can’t escape and I don’t even have a cat flap, because I don’t want them out there when I’m not in the house! I have Somalis and they are renowned for _loving_ their freedom and being out and about hunting, but mine are totally happy and make no attempt to escape out of the garden.

As far as cats like Maine ***** and Norwegians, they are farm cats and love the great outdoors, just like Somalis do. If you live in the middle of nowhere, there is a possibility that they may go semi-feral because they love being out that much. I sold a Somali kitten to somewhere in the highlands of Scotland miles from anywhere and when she was about 2 year old she vanished for 3 weeks, came home had her tea, slept in bed with her owner as usual and went off the next day for a couple of weeks. After that her owner built a pen for her. The next kitten she bought from me did the same at about the same age and the 3rd one did it too, but he was a male and he was a little older when he did it! So that’s always a risk if you allow some breeds their freedom in the ‘sticks’. My friend breeds Maine ***** and had 20+ in her house, none of them are allowed outside and they’re all very happy. 




Ssthisto said:


> I do not think it's fair to take a cat that is USED to going out and start confining it but if the cat has never been allowed out except on a lead I do not believe they really miss it.


 Well when I had 3 males they were allowed their freedom, but once I bought my female and started breeding I had to keep them all in and cat proofed the garden – only one of them took a while to settle, he patrolled the fence for about 3 weeks trying to escape and once he knew he couldn’t he never tried again. As far as my Aby was concerned it was the best thing I could have done because he was so frightened of people he would only go out in the garden if I was there or it was dark. Once he couldn’t see the people, he was out there all day!

Finally, Nerys, you never mentioned you had a Somali – can I ask where you got her from – did you get her pedigree!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> Nerys, Willow was beautiful! sorry to hear about her passing, but as you say, at least she had a good life with you! I wasnt aware there were problems with vaccinations in cats? Is it a big issue?


It certainly can be. Breeders have lost entire litters by vaccinating at the same time that they worm. There have also been some very unpleasant side effects and problems from some vaccinations. A friend of mine has just lost 4 kittens after their vaccination - 8 were vaccinated, this 4 were given a different batch and all sorts of tests are currently being done by the manufacturers! Somalis do seem to have problems with the leukaemia vaccination if given at the same time as a possibly non-compatible flu and enteritis vaccine - I never did my kittens for leukaemia or my adults at the same time as I flu and enteritis-ed them!




Art_Gecko101 said:


> They are born to wander and roam and hunt, how can they do that inside? In the same way as I wouldnt keep an arboreal gecko in a viv where it couldnt climb, how can you keep a cat inside where it cant roam?


As I've just said surely dogs are born to wander and roam and hunt in packs, yet we often choose to keep them as individuals and confine them to gardens and houses - what's the difference?

Similarly what about all the skunks that are becoming pets in this country - they don't live in enclosures in the wild in their native country - there is no difference.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

feorag said:


> Well when I had 3 males they were allowed their freedom, but once I bought my female and started breeding I had to keep them all in and cat proofed the garden


I can imagine that if my cats could still use the garden they'd adjust to not being able to roam further - but it's unfortunately impossible to completely cat-proof our garden as we don't have a defined front and back - it's driveway-sideyard-frontyard, and access to the front is needed by such people as the postman (much as my American sensibilities say that there should be a mailbox out on the driveway's gatepost and that nobody should ever need to set foot on my property without my explicit invitation).

When I was saying "not fair to keep a cat who's used to going out in" I was literally thinking of "a cat who previously could go out into the garden and/or roam being kept inside a house permanently". 

That said, I was shocked when I first came over here and people DID let their cats out - at least in the part of the USA I lived in, your dogs might live outside in kennels but your cats were very strictly kept indoors.


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## Art_Gecko101 (May 6, 2006)

Thanks for such a great thorough reply Feorag, the reason I originally aimed my post at pedigree cats was because I didnt realise so many moggy keepers kept them as housecats too. I assumed the main reason that pedigrees were kept in was because theyre such a good target for theifs.

Thanks for the info on the vaccination problems, my friend is getting the newest of her Siamese vaccinated soon so ill make sure to pass it on incase she's not clued up on it. 

As for your point on dogs, i personally think its slightly different. If i owned a wolf I would not keep it inside, but as domestic dogs are a different subspecies I dont think the roaming instinct is as strong.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> As for your point on dogs, i personally think its slightly different. If i owned a wolf I would not keep it inside, but as domestic dogs are a different subspecies I dont think the roaming instinct is as strong.


You'd be surprised - they form packs and roam the same as wild wolves would if they're given the opportunity... but because they're potentially dangerous to humans in a way that a roaming cat isn't, people have gotten into the habit of NOT allowing it. It doesn't mean they don't want to (and far as it goes, it bothers me more the people who have "just one dog" when these are pack animals that need the company of their own kind just as much as a rat does, and certainly a lot more than a pet corn snake or gecko...) but that legalities and human attitudes have prevented it.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

feorag said:


> Finally, Nerys, you never mentioned you had a Somali – can I ask where you got her from – did you get her pedigree!


i did i think, although god knows where it is now.. her registered name i think was Naughty Tortie..

she was bred by a lady called Kym, in the forest of dean, she used to be quite active on these sort of forums a few years ago, tho i cannot now think what her user name was! i do still have her number but god knows if its still the right one. she had a few somalis, some of which i seem to remember where quite good ones? (won things etc) and also siamese's i think. i know she came out of cat breeding though.

willow was one she bred, she went round to do a check on her progress a few months after she was sold, and found her being kicked down the stairs. she promptly took her back, and then decided to keep her for the stud.. unfortunately she got sick during the pregnancy, i think gave birth premature, and ended up nearly dieing from jaundice. much nursing later and she was eventually back to health, but kym did not want to then breed from her, and her other queens took against her. kym knew i wanted a somali.. and so offered me willow for £100.. which i paid.. 
(i know, i know.. but hey, when you fall for the animal, you do these things!)

i had her spayed and vaccinated.. and as said before, after about 6-8 months i noticed one night she was very quiet.. every cat has an off day, so i gave her some choice scraps for dinner, tucked her up in a basket and let her be.. next day she was no better when i came home from work, so i called the vets and talked about it with them, and booked her in for the next morning. about midnight when i checked her again, her gums and eyelids were canary yellow, jaundice had got to her again, after being taken to the vets, a blood test showed her cell count was so low it hardly registered, and the decision was made to have her pts. there was nothing they could have done to help.

3 days before, she seemed right as rain. its always a shock when they go that fast.

hey ho.

as to skunks and letting them out. the only reason i do not let the skunks out, whereas i do let the cats out, is that the cats come back and the skunks wouldn't. a skunk tends to follow its nose and forget where it has been to get to where it has gotten. its very very rare for a skunk who gets out, to come back to where he got out from. for that reason, and the fact they are not native, i would not let them free roam like i do the cats no.

N


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## butterfingersbimbo (Jan 26, 2008)

i'm glad this has come up, because I am in a total quandry about fidge being a housecat.....i am really worried if i let het go out and about something awful will happen to her. she has been out with wiz for a walk, a friend lent us a kitten harness! she isn't very keen on it......but tonight she has legged it out into the back garden and has really wanted to play out there! i managed to get her in luckily but i near had a heart attack! I really don't know what to do!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> As for your point on dogs, i personally think its slightly different. If i owned a wolf I would not keep it inside, but as domestic dogs are a different subspecies I dont think the roaming instinct is as strong.


Yes, but all domestic dogs evolved from the wolf, which is a pack animal that roams and hunts in packs. Domestic cats are thought to have evolved from the African wildcat (but are now named Felis Sylvestris or Felis Cattus which is also a subspecies, the same as dogs are to wolves). Obviously dogs have been domesticated for longer than cats, but cats have still been domesticated for thousands of years, so what is the difference?




Nerys said:


> she was bred by a lady called Kym, in the forest of dean


Ah yes, I knew Kym Hutchins, last time I saw her was at the Somali AGM about 6 years ago. I knew she’d given up breeding. My friend who lives in Gloucester said Willow was a fawn, but we are intrigued because if she was registered as Naughty Tortie, then she must be a fawn tortie. Tortie is very hard to see on sorrel and fawn cats, but she does look a little patchy in your photograph.




Nerys said:


> i had her spayed and vaccinated.. and as said before, after about 6-8 months i noticed one night she was very quiet.. every cat has an off day, so i gave her some choice scraps for dinner, tucked her up in a basket and let her be.. next day she was no better when i came home from work, so i called the vets and talked about it with them, and booked her in for the next morning. about midnight when i checked her again, her gums and eyelids were canary yellow, jaundice had got to her again, after being taken to the vets, a blood test showed her cell count was so low it hardly registered, and the decision was made to have her pts. there was nothing they could have done to help.


I’m really intrigued by this and wonder if you clarify things for me. Do you mind telling me how long ago this happened? Firstly, you said in your earlier post that you thought her death could have been as a result of the leukaemia vaccination. Did she die quickly after that? It’s just because above you said you had her spayed and vaccinated and after 6-8 months noticed something was wrong. The reason I’m asking is because the symptoms you are described above tally very closely to the litter of Somalis that has recently died after vaccination.

Another thing that draws my interest is what you have said about the cell count, because those symptoms also could be a disease which Somali owners only became really aware of a few years ago called PKDef (Pyruvate kinase deficiency), the prime symptom of which is anaemia. This is inherited as a recessive trait and Somali breeders are now working to eliminate it from the breed.




Nerys said:


> as to skunks and letting them out. the only reason i do not let the skunks out, whereas i do let the cats out, is that the cats come back and the skunks wouldn't. a skunk tends to follow its nose and forget where it has been to get to where it has gotten. its very very rare for a skunk who gets out, to come back to where he got out from. for that reason, and the fact they are not native, i would not let them free roam like i do the cats no.


I quite understand, I was really just saying in the norm all animals have a tendency to roam and certainly to enjoy their freedom, yet we choose to confine them, so what’s the difference between cats and the rest??


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

Our 2 maine ***** are 'Indoor' cats, to be honest they don't even know what 'outside' is.
We took them out in the garden on leads, and they didn't know what to make of it at all, they never window watch, and genuinely seem very content inside.
A local mate found his outdoor cat dead in the road last week, another reason for keeping them in, i doubt MC's are especially streetsmart.
get a maine ****, keep it indoors, and you will not regret it
A lot of breeders insist on you signing a contract , stating you will not let it be an outdoor cat, our one certainly did


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## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

Both of my moggies are indoor cats and always have been, Baby loves to sit in the bedroom window (But never does in any other room) and stares outside at the pigeons - I have loads behind the flat as they go into and old barn type building. Rex however, ducks his head and looks worried sick when he sees a bird fly over!

I don't think they miss going outside because they never have.. Although I did once carry Baby to my Sisters house on the next road and he was scared half to death of the traffic. 

I have had outdoor cats before though too, when I lived at home. One was a kitten when he was knocked over and killed, and my Sister's cat was killed by a car 2 years ago.. That's my greatest fear of letting a cat out. When I got my cats I knew I'd be keeping them indoors as I live in a flat anyway, it wouldn't be that easy for them to get back in :|


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Yes, but all domestic dogs evolved from the wolf, which is a pack animal that roams and hunts in packs. Domestic cats are thought to have evolved from the African wildcat (but are now named Felis Sylvestris or Felis Cattus which is also a subspecies, the same as dogs are to wolves). Obviously dogs have been domesticated for longer than cats, but cats have still been domesticated for thousands of years, so what is the difference?

Ah yes, I knew Kym Hutchins, last time I saw her was at the Somali AGM about 6 years ago. I knew she’d given up breeding. My friend who lives in Gloucester said Willow was a fawn, but we are intrigued because if she was registered as Naughty Tortie, then she must be a fawn tortie. Tortie is very hard to see on sorrel and fawn cats, but she does look a little patchy in your photograph.

i am sure she said she called her "blonde" ? but yes i think as a kitten she was more tortie from what i remember her say, i thought you might know her when i said kym in the f-o-d 

I’m really intrigued by this and wonder if you clarify things for me. Do you mind telling me how long ago this happened? Firstly, you said in your earlier post that you thought her death could have been as a result of the leukaemia vaccination. Did she die quickly after that? It’s just because above you said you had her spayed and vaccinated and after 6-8 months noticed something was wrong. The reason I’m asking is because the symptoms you are described above tally very closely to the litter of Somalis that has recently died after vaccination.

no, she was jabbed when i first got her.. which would have been.. *thinks* about march ish time that year.. i think it was discussions with friends at the time that came to the leukemia conclusion, although she had been jabbed some months earlier.. would it affect kittens faster than adults maybe? i did read at the time that many "blood" cat owners did not get thiers jabbed for risk of the jab backfiring, so to speak.



Another thing that draws my interest is what you have said about the cell count, because those symptoms also could be a disease which Somali owners only became really aware of a few years ago called PKDef (Pyruvate kinase deficiency), the prime symptom of which is anaemia. This is inherited as a recessive trait and Somali breeders are now working to eliminate it from the breed.

thats interesting.. i can't think now exactly what it was, but i am sure it was around the "should have been 40" and was actually something stupid like 6..

I quite understand, I was really just saying in the norm all animals have a tendency to roam and certainly to enjoy their freedom, yet we choose to confine them, so what’s the difference between cats and the rest??

as said, for me, its mainly about them coming back. 

i let a cat out, it comes home. i let a skunk out, i will be lucky to ever see it again. the dogs i don't let run about loose around here as the farmers would shoot them if in their fields. the cats they do not shoot. so again, cats yes, dogs no.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> If you have a pedigree cat, does it have to be a housecat (to stop it getting stolen etc i suppose) or does anyone have pedigree cats that they let come and go like a moggy?
> 
> A friend of mine has 2 Siamese, but I couldnt bare to keep a cat if I had to keep it inside all the time, I just don't think its fair because its their nature to roam. Her Siamese are always trying to get out and 'window watching' and its upsetting to see them contained. Of course if you had a lazy cat that didnt want to go out it'd be different.lol
> 
> ...


 When I lived on a busy main road, my cats were all indoor only cats. When I lived in a country place with land, they were all indoor/outdoor cats. I had a mixture of Siamese and some moggies. It's not about what breed they are, it's all about whether the environment is safe for them.


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## Chelle230 (Apr 9, 2008)

I've got 2 moggies and a ragdoll and they all stay indoors, they seem quite happy too, even if the door is open they just sit and sniff the air then come back in


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Art_Gecko101 said:


> Nerys, Willow was beautiful! sorry to hear about her passing, but as you say, at least she had a good life with you! I wasnt aware there were problems with vaccinations in cats? Is it a big issue?
> 
> Toyah, I dont know nearly enough about cats to debate over the rights and wrongs of keeping them 'safe' inside, but i do know that all the housecats ive ever met have been desperate to get outside, no matter how lovely the house. They are born to wander and roam and hunt, how can they do that inside? In the same way as I wouldnt keep an arboreal gecko in a viv where it couldnt climb, how can you keep a cat inside where it cant roam?
> 
> ...


 By the same token, dogs are born to wander and roam , join a pack and pull down sheep to kill and eat them. Nobody would say that this is right, so why is the argument used for cats? I don't actually like the idea of cats being kept indoors permanently if it is reasonably safe for them outside. Cats can roam indoors though if you give them the whole house. Mine had 3 floors plus cat towers etc.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Nerys said:


> i am sure she said she called her "blonde" ? but yes i think as a kitten she was more tortie from what i remember her say, i thought you might know her when i said kym in the f-o-d .


Well, when I first looked at your photograph I thought she was a fawn or a crap fawn silver. Then when you said naughty tortie, I thought she had to be a tortie, but it’s not hugely obvious from the photograph



Nerys said:


> no, she was jabbed when i first got her.. which would have been.. *thinks* about march ish time that year.. i think it was discussions with friends at the time that came to the leukemia conclusion, although she had been jabbed some months earlier.. would it affect kittens faster than adults maybe? i did read at the time that many "blood" cat owners did not get thiers jabbed for risk of the jab backfiring, so to speak..


I think if it was to do with the leukaemia injection it would have shown itself fairly quickly after the injection, not months later. Like I said all my Somalis were vaccinated against leukaemia, but I never did the vaccination at the same time as the flu and enteritis one, although I did booster for all 3 together without any problems. 

I’m more inclined to think it could have been PKDef. Pyruvate Kinase is an enzyme within red blood cells – if this is lacking then the lifespan of the red blood cell is significantly reduced, causing anaemia. The problem is diagnosing it, because with anaemia the body can manufacture new red blood cells, so it’s not easy to detect because most of the time it is mild or occurs so gradually that the cat (which is a animal very quick to adapt and compensate when something goes wrong) may not show any obvious symptoms. The problems with PKDef is that a rapid severe life-threatening anaemia can also develop.

At the moment all Somali breeders are blood testing their cats for this disease and gradually breeding it out. As long as a carrier isn’t bred to a carrier kittens will not go on to develop this disease and so now breeders are aware of it, no kittens should end up having this. Having said that of course this was only discovered a few years ago, certainly not when Kym was breeding. If I knew the pedigree of your cat I could probably tell if there were any lines that have produced carriers of this disease to know for sure.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

My Silver Tabby Maine **** Elmo is a nightmare.He has never been allowed out yet he spends his life climbing the pebble dash or the apple tree to escape. He can jump overt a 6 foot netted fence without touching so he can go out and then comes straight round to the front and sits and watches thingds from the kitchen window before hes off again.His hocks are lacerated from escaping.I am at a loss as to how to keep him in as whatever we do he escapes. When Ive had enough of the stress I shut him in our bedroom(windows tightly shut or he jumps from the bedroom to the floor with no problem)where he sleeps of a night. He is such an athletic cat. Ive tried to fatten him up to make him to heavy to escape but it doesnt work. Eileen a question. Elmo is nearly 4 years now and has for the first time moulted out his ruff,tail and feathers is this an adult moult or shouldnt this of happened. His coat looks awful at the min but he has no fleas or irritation. Any ideas??


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

it has to be said i would love to know for sure if willow had that or not.. in some ways it would make me feel better to know it was not because i got her jabbed or let her out... she was the best friend of a few neighbours by the time she passed on, i had a few people actually ask me where the sweet blonde cat who would come and chat to them in the day (when i was at work) had gone..

i know where her pedigree used to be.. i think thats still down in my old house in dorset, at some point i will endevour to find out. i know she was bred at kyms tho, did she not have a really nice show winning male stud? i would have thought it would have been him who was the father.

should i ever come up with it, i will let you know, thanks for letting me know, another unanswered question with possibly an answer :2thumb:

N


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Nerys said:


> it has to be said i would love to know for sure if willow had that or not.. in some ways it would make me feel better to know it was not because i got her jabbed or let her out... she was the best friend of a few neighbours by the time she passed on, i had a few people actually ask me where the sweet blonde cat who would come and chat to them in the day (when i was at work) had gone..
> 
> i know where her pedigree used to be.. i think thats still down in my old house in dorset, at some point i will endevour to find out. i know she was bred at kyms tho, did she not have a really nice show winning male stud? i would have thought it would have been him who was the father.
> 
> ...


I think it would make you feel better to know that it was something she was born with and nothing that you did, especially as you didn't have her for very long. I'm pretty sure that Kym used my friend's stud boy at some stage, which is how Emma met her, but don't think this kitten is from her original 2 stud boys as they didn't carry dilute. I've e-mailed her to ask if she knows the parentage cos she knew Willow when I spoke to her last night. Can you tell me how long ago all this was so we can work out when she was born? In the meantime I'll see what I can find out

Somalis are extemely people-oriented and love to be around people, much preferring their company to other cats! The worst thing you can do with a Somali is to isolate it from people (very similar to Siamese/Orientals in that respect). 




Shell195 said:


> Eileen a question. Elmo is nearly 4 years now and has for the first time moulted out his ruff,tail and feathers is this an adult moult or shouldnt this of happened. His coat looks awful at the min but he has no fleas or irritation. Any ideas??


Sounds like it. Obviously like all cats ***** will have a seasonal moult, but occasionally they can lose all their 'furnishings' as we call it! Somalis do that too - you want to see a male stud in the summer - they look quite dreadful!! My friend's boy who had a fantastic coat in the winter used to look like an Aby in the summer!! 

It does, however, seem a little late to lose the lot, I would have expected this to happen in early summer, not autumn!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Thats what I thought, I dont understand why its come out though as hes not scratching, nor overlicking, had a Stronghold 3 Weeks ago. Grrr these animals will be the death of me:lol2:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

well... this was the year i had her..

Puss In Boots - Livefood UK Forum

my ex and i moved into the house in about feb/march time.. so i would think i got her around april ish? which was when we were there full time by..

and she was, well at least a year old when i had her.. so born either 2002 or 2003 i would think..

N


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Thanks Nerys! Well I don't know whether there's a flash bounce on those photographs, but she looks like she might even be a lilac on those photographs. Kym was into breeding chocolates, which was how I got to know her, so she may even have been a lilac. I'm off to have another look and read the thread now

I'll see what I can find out.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

As long as you appreciate that you will always have to have him at home, meaning he can't go into a cattery or anything like that, or if something ever went badly wrong and you had to re-home him.

I vaccinated mine because as show cats they have to be vaccinated and you have to produce your Vaccination Certificates and Luna, who wasn't a show cat was a P.A.T. cat and again I had to produce her vaccination certificate every year. However, once they reached the age of 10, I stopped vaccinating, because I've come across quite a few vets who feel that by that age they have sufficient antibodies (to flu & enteritis) not to need any more. 

Also unless I was showing them, I only boostered every 3 years as boostering has been proven by studies not to be necessary every year as the vaccine companies would have us think.


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## Flutterbye (May 14, 2008)

feorag said:


> It certainly can be. Breeders have lost entire litters by vaccinating at the same time that they worm. There have also been some very unpleasant side effects and problems from some vaccinations. A friend of mine has just lost 4 kittens after their vaccination - 8 were vaccinated, this 4 were given a different batch and all sorts of tests are currently being done by the manufacturers! Somalis do seem to have problems with the leukaemia vaccination if given at the same time as a possibly non-compatible flu and enteritis vaccine - I never did my kittens for leukaemia or my adults at the same time as I flu and enteritis-ed them!
> 
> 
> As I've just said surely dogs are born to wander and roam and hunt in packs, yet we often choose to keep them as individuals and confine them to gardens and houses - what's the difference?
> ...


 
Oh GOD...i'm worried now..........

I was planning on getting coco and marshmellow vaccinated against leukameia and the other one...which is for cat flu isnt it?

I'm having second thoughts about the leukameia one now..................

I've never heard of kitten dying from this?
What are the reasons for this happening???

thankyou : victory:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Your primary vaccination is for enteritis and the 2 cat flus - herpes and calicivirus. 

I only know that it happens in pedigree cats and that's probably because pedigree breeders are taking entire litters to be vaccinated and if more than one kitten reacts then they know it's a problem with the vaccine and pedigree breeders share information. Some breeds seem more prone to this sort of reaction than others, but if word gets out that one litter of that breed has died following anything the breeder has done that is normally done, then most breeders stop doing that and find another way.

Kittens have been know to die after vaccination if they've been wormed at the same time. It could be coincidence, but it could be because of that and most breeders aren't going to take that chance. Certainly I never wormed the week I vaccinated just in case!

Moggies on the other hand are usually taken by their new owners and so are a single vaccination and if a kitten develops an illness and dies afterwards, most vets will not put it down to the vaccination.

I do know, however, that Shell has mentioned on the "cat chat thread" that she doesn't vaccinate against leukaemia at the same time.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

We do vaccinate the moggy kittens as the vaccine is all in one(inc leuk) but have had a few react but none ever died. Its pedigrees that I wont get done at the same time although the 2 Devons, Oriental and my Maine **** all had it before I took them home and they were fine


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I must admit I think if you use a triple combined vaccination that they _should_ be compatible.

Where I think the problems lay was that vets were using a leukaemia vaccination that wasn't compatible with the flu & enteritis one and that was where the problems started. Well, that's my opinion anyway.


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## Flutterbye (May 14, 2008)

Ahh i see, 

What would you suggest i do with the two when they arrive?

As i was planning on getting them vaccinated against everything....

If they're not wormed, should i go ahead? Or is the risk big enough to leave it???

This had made me loose my faith in veterinary science....i don't trust easily as it is!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

The risk of not getting them vaccinated is greater than having them vaccinated especially if they are eventually going out(flu can kill and enteritis and leuk do kill). I would vaccinate them then inbetween the set of 2 vaccines I would worm them. Out of all the shelter kittens we have had vaccinated we have never lost one


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## Flutterbye (May 14, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> The risk of not getting them vaccinated is greater than having them vaccinated especially if they are eventually going out(flu can kill and enteritis and leuk do kill). I would vaccinate them then inbetween the set of 2 vaccines I would worm them. Out of all the shelter kittens we have had vaccinated we have never lost one


Aw thankyou hun, that's good to hear : victory:

I just couldn't bare it if it went wrong.....but it seems to be mainly with pedigree's and timing of worming.


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

I have just bought a persian kitten and I won't be having him vaccinated as I have heard of more cats die from the vaccine than the disease. He will be living as a house cat because he would just end up all knotted and filthy if he was allowed outside. The way he is behaving (following us round, wanting to sleep with us etc) I doubt he will be interested in going out even when hes older anyway.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

NB did you know people can carry some of the viruses on their clothes?? IMO its always worth vaccinating


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Shell we have very few visitors here. Its a risk one way or another, I'd rather not vaccinate, just my preference, not saying its right for everyone.


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