# Outdoor Goldfish Pond



## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

We've had this one for about 15 years, never had any problems. Fish have died over the years, and been replaced with no issues.

Last September a heron arrived and took nearly all of them. A few days later some re-emerged (two larger ones). We had taken the guards off previously about five years ago and left them off. We re-stocked from a seller who had numerous holding ponds etc, in fact his whole back garden was ponds last October.

Fast forward to this year, and so far I think I have removed over a dozen dead ones. No marks/damage on them. It is a fibreglass sunken pond with a filter running 24/7.

We had started feeding them as the weather improved and all food was eaten.

Anyone any ideas at all? It is roughly 12'x6'x2'. I can get proper measurements if needed (cat is on my lap :lol2

All thoughts would be gratefully received. I do like to think we know what we are doing, but something isn't right.


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

Do you test the water in any way? What are the parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, temperature)?

Have you cleaned the filters recently?

What food were you feeding them? It's still a little early for them to be taking food, especially a high protein one.

Also, you said you've removed "over a dozen so far" how many did you put in?


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Fargle said:


> Do you test the water in any way? What are the parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, temperature)?
> 
> Have you cleaned the filters recently?
> 
> ...


No, we haven't tested the water as we've never before had problems.

The filter had not been cleaned. The pump went to the filter box and a small upward jet. This worked well, but the pump slowed about a month ago and we found the impeller stick (for want of a better word) had split like a forked tongue. A brand new pump has since been fitted just running to the filter box. This was fitted last Thursday, but the pond was never without a filter as we had a spare turtle pond one. I hooked out two dead ones this morning.

We bought about 15 small ones, 2"-3" and were assured by the seller this would be ok. We have had quite a few in there previously, and as I say we had no issues at all until we bought these. 

It is nearly six month ago could they have been a "bad batch"?

Just to clarify, the turtles of course are still indoors and have their own separate ponds without fish.

Many thanks for your reply I hoped you'd respond.


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## SueBoyle (Aug 29, 2013)

Fargle said:


> Do you test the water in any way? What are the parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, temperature)?
> 
> Have you cleaned the filters recently?
> 
> ...


Agree with this, I don't feed yet, although further north than you. They have had a couple of handfuls since winter was over. If it was stocked late last year it could be there were too many added too quickly upsetting the balance of the water. Mine has a slightly smaller surface are but is probably a foot deeper which can help. I have three koi and probably twenty goldfish of varying sizes. At this time of year I tend to run a slow trickle hose through for a couple of days, as algae starts to grow very quickly. I'd do a water test though to give a clearer picture for starters


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## SueBoyle (Aug 29, 2013)

Stephen P said:


> A brand new pump has since been fitted just running to the filter box. This was fitted last Thursday, but the pond was never without a filter as we had a spare turtle pond one. I hooked out two dead ones this morning.
> 
> We bought about 15 small ones, 2"-3" and were assured by the seller this would be ok. We have had quite a few in there previously, and as I say we had no issues at all until we bought these.
> 
> ...



Does your pump run through a biological filter too? If not this could well be the problem as the old one would have had a good build up which was suddenly lost, upsetting the balance. They could have been a bad batch, but I would have expected them to have died over winter if so. I'd do the water trickle to do a gradual change, adding some water conditioner after a couple of days if it was me.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

SueBoyle said:


> Agree with this, I don't feed yet, although further north than you. They have had a couple of handfuls since winter was over. If it was stocked late last year it could be there were too many added too quickly upsetting the balance of the water. Mine has a slightly smaller surface are but is probably a foot deeper which can help. I have three koi and probably twenty goldfish of varying sizes. At this time of year I tend to run a slow trickle hose through for a couple of days, as algae starts to grow very quickly. I'd do a water test though to give a clearer picture for starters


Thanks for the reply.

We have fed only small amounts when we've had warm sunny days (tortoise outdoor weather :blush. Can't see any algae at all forming. There are some lilies in there plus some pondweed. No duckweed grows in this one. There are some toads and frogs that go between the several ponds. There is one that is totally wildlife now and the frog spawn has hatched :2thumb:

Edit: Extra information - Alfagrog in the filter box. It is filled with rainwater - plenty of rain down here recently, and then during summer months from the water butt if the level drops at all.


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

I'd do water tests as soon as you can, it could tell you a lot about what's going on in the water. 

With the weather starting to warm up a little things are stating to come back to life, including your filter, the fish and any parasites or bacteria in the water. With lots of fish going back in quickly, after only a few being in for a month or so, the filter could be out of whack. As this was just before the winter it would have hidden the problem, now things are warmer it's starting to show. 

If you've never cleaned the filter now is a good time, just remember to do it in pond water, not under the tap.

Check the water temperature, my guess is it's not much above 10C yet. Only feed very little amounts of a low protein diet (typically wheatgerm based) till the water temp comes to around 12-15, then switch to a summer diet that has a little more protein. If you've put high protein food in fish that aren't warm enough yet it can actually go bad in their stomachs, killing them. Or pass straight through and pollute the water, causing an ammonia/nitrite spike, killing them. 

Also, just FYI the "impeller stick" is called a shaft....not much better I know, but may help you next time.


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

Also just seen that it's filled with rain water only. Check the hardness of the water, you want to know the Calcium Hardness, typically known as KH. This is the amount of calcium salts in the water that buffer pH changes. With low to none coming in on rain water it could be that there's none in the pond. This could lead to big shift in pH within a small amount of time (day to night), a very bad thing for fish. Goldfish like slightly harder water, so aim for somewhere around 80 degrees. Crushed oyster shell is cheap as chips and works well for buffering KH and therefore pH.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks for all the information.

The filter has been cleaned several times previously. Last summer would have been when it would have been done, from memory.

We've fed the same wheatgerm food for a while now as the turtles have it as well.

I'll get testing. Should we decide to restock what would be the best way to go about it?

We have always had fish whilst living here. There was a previous pond until the liner split, hence the fibreglass one in its place. We've been here 20 years and not had problems like this.

I know when we did add a previous quantity of fish it would have been about June time. In the very hot summer and empty water butts, the hose is used and we only use the fresh top water in the butts. An overflow ran straight into the pond, but this was disconnected a while back as we have more butts/watering cans!

Sorry my replies must read a bit dis-jointed, but it is as I remember!


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## love_reptiles (Mar 1, 2009)

How would you know unless you are testing it? 

A dozen fish in one go is a lot to lose. Less than half that number and I'd be testing. (Well to be fair, one fish and I'd be testing personally). With that many fish gone in one go, I *guarantee* it's a water quality issue - if because of nothing else, that many dead fish will be fowling the water 

Also bare in mind it's just the start of the season. Your filters bacteria load dies off over the winter due to the fishes dormancy and lack of feeding (producing waste to feed filter bacteria). So it could easily be that you have simply started feeding a bit too much soon too soon (wheatgerm or not, the fish will still produce waste). That being said, it could just as easily have been adding that many fish to the pond in one go. Regardless of the body of water, your filter will have been kicked back over winter, takes several weeks to build up the bacteria again when spring hits (and longer when you consider re-feeding). I'd never add more than 3 fish every couple weeks, and that's on a filter that's caught up to the warming weather, to be on the safe side. It's never as simple as dumping a load of fish in and away you go. Yes you lost fish, but if there was even a couple of days between losing those fish and adding new ones, again the bacteria in filter will have died down (there is only ever enough bacteria in a filter to deal with the _current _wasteload - never more, so it needs change to catch up when adding fish).

If you post the full results up, as has been said Ammonia, Nitrite, Ph, Nitrate and Gh and KH will be able to advise further. At present I wouldn't even be worrying about adding more fish, but concentrating on sorting the issue because there definitely is one and it'll take time. By the way - sorry if I've missed it but what fish is it? If it's goldfish 15 years is a bit young but a fair enough age. If we're talking koi at 15 they're still 'babies' so shouldn't be dying off over the years. Of course you could be keeping other things. 



Stephen P said:


> No, we haven't tested the water as we've never before had problems.


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## love_reptiles (Mar 1, 2009)

Note: Just noticed you added the fish last year, not this spring, sorry. Although the water testing still stands.

Nope, not a bad batch of fish. If it was bad batch you would of lost them before now. There are very, very rarely simply 'bad batches of fish'. If you consider the size and age you bought the fish - they made it that far, that size and age healthily, made it through being shipped over here (in cases where you buy them from a fish shop), or even just if a local breeder, breeder managed to raise them with no issues till they came to you. Certainly fish can suffer internal issues (enlarged or problematic hearts, liver etc) but it's rare enough to not even bother considering unless it's ONE fish, and water is testing fine and other causes ruled out.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

t d+End of October 2015 the fish were added as a heron had got our existing ones. As I said earlier, we had never had any issues with any of the previous fish. We had lost one or two, which would be expected over the years, and had restocked four or five years ago as a friend was filling in their pond.

It was still mild when we got the new ones, and were advised to feed them by the seller. He bought them wholesale and sold them on. I can't remember the exact date of the first loss.


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

Saying you've never had an issue before with previous fish is fairly pointless. You've lost 12 fish in a very short space of time....there is an issue. I never had a problem with hair in my house, but now I have a dog I do have a problem, things change.

Ponds are living breathing organisms in their own right and clearly something has effected yours, it's sick. Sick things need healing and to do that you need to know what's wrong. The easiest way is to do water tests, it's no different from a doctor taking your vitals.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Fargle said:


> Saying you've never had an issue before with previous fish is fairly pointless. You've lost 12 fish in a very short space of time....there is an issue. I never had a problem with hair in my house, but now I have a dog I do have a problem, things change.
> 
> Ponds are living breathing organisms in their own right and clearly something has effected yours, it's sick. Sick things need healing and to do that you need to know what's wrong. The easiest way is to do water tests, it's no different from a doctor taking your vitals.


I didn't think it was pointless actually.

We bought some new fish and they died. I have merely asked why, and you have provided me with lots of helpful information. 

If the heron hadn't taken them, we wouldn't have bought more. The original ones would have lived (nothing had changed).

Obviously I can't be 100% sure, but six months ago I had no idea I would be posting this thread.


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## love_reptiles (Mar 1, 2009)

To be fair, Fargle _is_ correct. 

If somebody posted a question about a problem with one of their snakes - and a user asked what the temp is, and the response was 'I don't know I've not checked my temps because I've never had a problem with my snakes before' you would most likely think 'What kind of reptile keeper doesn't monitor temps' or such like. So you may be able to see why saying the same about checking water conditions for fish is pointless because you've never had an issue before.

Just as monitoring temps is important and good practise when keeping reptiles, so is the same for water testing (not just when there's a problem) to monitor water quality with fish. I don't think anyone has meant to attack or anything. As someone who's worked in the industry - it's just a very frustrating statement is all. Just as for someone working in the reptile industry, not checking temps because 'they have never had a problem' is equally as frustrating I would imagine. Just good husbandry practises to monitor, is all.


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## love_reptiles (Mar 1, 2009)

By the way, I recommend the API freshwater liquid test kit. Fantastic stuff. Never bother with test strips they are a complete waste of time and give inaccurate results. Some people find the API nitrate tests a little tricky, but the key is to shake the bottles HARD for a good couple of minutes before using. When you think you're doing shaking, shake some more. Same with the test tube inbetween adding the two chemicals. Basically, if you get a 0 reading for nitrate, it's not worked.


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

The rainwater bit would alarm me personally! Could be a ph crash.


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