# Breeding with Purpose or Not



## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I have selected this category because I do think it is an issue within the hobby. 

Let me explain: as resources at zoos are stretched, I think it is time for suitably experienced private keepers to take over the mantel of conserving some of the smaller reptile and amphibian species. 

Some of you may know I have had some considerable success with my Egyptian Tortoises: _Testudo kleinmanni_ this year so much so that I actually have more animals in my vivaria than all the UK zoos combined. I am keen to swap some of the babies with other breeders (only 2-3 in the UK) or zoological collections to maintain the diversity of my group. Problem is all animals in private collections (mine included) are considered mutts as their origin is unknown. 

Something else I had been more than willing to do is donate a number (50-80%) of the babies to reintroduction programmes but a) given the status mentioned above b) the million and one hoops that would need to be jumped through as release isn't an easy or straight forward process and c) the fact there isn't such a programme at present make this almost impossible. 

So my question is, why bother breeding rare or endangered species when the only option is to fill a commercial demand when what I would rather be doing is making a positive impact to the long-term survival of the species?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> So my question is, why bother breeding rare or endangered species when the only option is to fill a commercial demand when what I would rather be doing is making a positive impact to the long-term survival of the species?


But by breeding and raising a rare or endangered species you are doing something positive. You are keeping that species in existence. Does it matter that its in a private collection rather than a back room of a zoo.

There must be reasons why releasing a colony of XYZ back into the wild requires a lot of paperwork, and may be only an option to a zoo or some other professional institute, but I have no knowledge of what those requirements would be, and in all honesty your historic records of where the animals came from, and their life with you would be fully documented, possibly more so than that of a zoo. But it does seem the red tape could be preventing the process of re-establishing endangered species back in the wild...


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## TroysReptiles (Jun 20, 2015)

Habitat destruction is surely a key factor in any reintroduction process. Sadly unless we check (limit) the increase of the human population, the environment which is essential for the well-being of nature shall be in decline until it is all gone!
First priority is saving the wilderness & not destroying it.
Second priority making sure that nature can migrate from one location to another unhindered.
Third priority is to educate the human populous about how to coexist with the natural surroundings for the benefit of all living creatures.
Then in a perfect world it might be possible to release privately produced animals. Although as you stated there are many many hoops of legislation to jump & paperwork bridges to cross before this is accepted by the governing bodies.
For individuals to perform all of these steps appears to me to be not affordable. It will take government mandate to promote & protect the environment. A shift in society is required where we're all content to coexist with our endemic flora & fauna rather than do our utmost to dominate other creatures or perceive them as threatening. I think some cultures have a closer connection & therefore understanding of the natural world.
Darwin had the notion of natural selection, which continues to this day, however it now does so because of the effects of humans. Your Egyptian tortoises will continue to thrive so long as you can find them suitable long term homes & source other bloodlines to keep the gene pool creditable. If they become extinct in Egypt, after some time & generations of captive bred animals they could be regarded to as Testudo kleinmanni Eng or T k Sco, T k De due to the distance of heritage from the source animals & to designate where or which bloodlines are available after extinction. Eventually genepool will weaken & the natural selection of a species ends or sub-species are created due to the fragmented groups & possibly distinctions appearing between the bloodlines. Unless we limit the human population to afford nature time & space to achieve a balance that it can live with. Every species is different & some will be more difficult to understand than others. People spend a lot on bug spray, but those bugs sustain other creatures which in turn benefit larger animals & so on.
Less people = More nature
How many children do you have?
How many children do they have?
Therefore consider, are you supporting the reconstruction or adding to the destruction of your piece of the locality where you live?
For the time being just enjoy breeding a species which few humans will have heard of & less will have had opportunity to observe in captivity. Educate those who chose to take on the responsibility of care to one of your offspring & hope that this in turn helps shift the way our society choses to conduct itself in relation to the planet we co-inhabit.
(In My Opinion)


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

In Germany they have the citizen conservation initiative where private keepers are allowed to keep rare species that were destined for zoos. As I understand the zoos loan the animals out so the individual never owns them.
To me this makes a lot of sense with smaller species such as reptiles,amphibians, fish and invertebrates. Private individuals could really help.But of course you have to trust the people that they are loaned to and that the young will not end up on the black market.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I am a huge advocate for private keepers helping in this respect - I have participated in such programmes in the past with the Jamaican Boa and Standings Day Gecko via Jersey Zoo but I am now 'going it alone' with the Egyptian Tortoises. 

I do feel our European colleagues are ahead of us in terms of this co-operation.


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## frogeyed (Nov 8, 2012)

TroysReptiles said:


> Habitat destruction is surely a key factor in any reintroduction process. Sadly unless we check (limit) the increase of the human population, the environment which is essential for the well-being of nature shall be in decline until it is all gone!
> First priority is saving the wilderness & not destroying it.
> Second priority making sure that nature can migrate from one location to another unhindered.
> Third priority is to educate the human populous about how to coexist with the natural surroundings for the benefit of all living creatures.
> ...


What we need is an annual 2 month lockdown to assist nature recover.
Worked a treat last year.
( Apologies to those that suffered because of lockdowns.)


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## TroysReptiles (Jun 20, 2015)

I am a carer, so worked throughout without furlough or lock down. Sadly it was blatantly evident in my area that even though nature took a step forward during these periods, it was unable.to cope.with the increased human activity post those events. I saw many animals dead on the roads & I'm sure pest control had a field day when they went back into action. Any benefits will soon be mitigated by the continued activities of the dominant & most beligerant species (us).
Less humans = More nature


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I have obviously been following your journey for some time Fraser, and love what you are doing with this species. The fact that you have more than all UK zoos put together must show that you are doing something right, perhaps better than the zoos are.

Off the back of this, I decided to look up BIAZA's Animal Transfer Process, and it seems it is possible to use Private Breeders, such as yourself. But there seem to be 4 main questions to cover, for the Zoos to meet the process.

Do you have evidence of the Provenance of the Animals?
Can you, where practicably possible, demonstrate that by receiving this animal you are not contributing the continuation of poor welfare for other animals?
Can you, where practicably possible, demonstrate that by receiving this animal you are not contributing to the unsustainable removal of animals from the wild? 
Can you, where practicably possible, demonstrate that by accepting this animal you are not supporting ethically challenging industries as defined in the BIAZA ATP? 

(I assume you are already aware of these, but thought I'd post them for the purpose of the thread).

I'm guessing your main stumbling blocks are the Provenance? Do you have any trail of where the animals came from originally, how many years/generations they are descended from wild stock.

I think it would be really beneficial for zoos to look to quality private breeders to manage many species conservational needs. Zoos are a finite resource, each acquisition must be costed and they are ultimately at the hands of upper management and budget holders, who may not see a benefit to holding certain species that still need help.

Of course, that should be managed properly, as not everyone is suitable for this kind of work. In fact, I'd probably say most people aren't. Have you tried to reach out to any of the Reptile Community sympathetic zoos to see if they're willing to get the ball rolling? Once one starts, you have an 'in' and could approach others with the evidence of previous collaboration. Maybe you could speak to the AHH/BHS and get another speaker spot, talk about your successes and how you'd like to see greater collaboration between zoos and private keepers. You may find someone is sat there watching who is interested.

Apologies if all that is a rambling mess, I'd just hate to see your hard work (or at least the tortoises) go to waste.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks Tarron. 

I have not been asked to do a talk but will hopefully 'network' over the two day event to see if I can make some beneficial contacts. 

I too am a firm believer that suitably experienced private individuals should be given the opportunity to help conserve some of the smaller reptile and amphibian species - just as I done with the Jamaican Boa and Standings Day Geckos all those years ago. It certainly helped me feel as though I was doing my bit and helped shape the keeper I am today.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

colinm said:


> In Germany they have the citizen conservation initiative where private keepers are allowed to keep rare species that were destined for zoos. As I understand the zoos loan the animals out so the individual never owns them.
> To me this makes a lot of sense with smaller species such as reptiles,amphibians, fish and invertebrates. Private individuals could really help.But of course you have to trust the people that they are loaned to and that the young will not end up on the black market.


We had Oliver Witte,a specialist advisory board member for expertise and herpetoculture of the German Society for Herpetology and Herpetoculture (DGHT) give a talk at the recent AHH conference where he outlined this amazing initiative. I think literally every person sitting in that packed room was utterly taken aback at how this works, he was in fact the only speaker to receive several ovations and generated a lot of buzz over the possibility of setting up something similar here in the UK.

What the initiative entails is a series of examinations where private individuals are sent information on how to care for particular species and are then examined on them. If they pass they are loaned pairs of the animals at the expense of the DGHT, with the proviso any babies they breed go back for distribution to other keepers. I know in the UK we have had the Sand Lizard project which was really successful. Would be nice to see more such initiatives set up here.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Can I take this in a slightly different direction....

I am a hobbyist breeder. I breed my Royals (normally just the one mature female at present) every year (other than 2020 due to covid) and sell off the hatchlings in order to try and make keeping the snakes self sufficient. By that I mean they cover or contribute a high proportion of the electricity and food bills required to keep the collection.

Given the recent hike in energy costs, with another projected to happen in October, and electricity seemingly being hit the hardest, I've taken the viewpoint that it would be irresponsible for me as a hobbyist breeder to continue with my 2022 program. 

The reason is two fold. First is that given the running costs the market has seen a spike in reptiles being put up for sale as they are too expensive to keep, so the market is already swamped with choice, making it harder to sell any new clutches of hatchlings. With so many people feeling the pinch they are less likely to expand their own collection, unless they are in a situation where they can absorb the doubling of their electricity bill come October. This leads me into the second reason. Being on a fixed income I am struggling with the normal cost of living expenses. Still having three hatchlings left over form 2021 clutch, I've had to drop my prices on these remaining three hatchlings, something I didn't want to do as it devalues the snake, and also means I lose out on money if I had held out for the market price. But whilst I have the space to make more vivs, I lack the resources to cover the cost of running them which could easily be a kw/h per day, as the value of the funds raised to cover the running costs has basically been halved. So given this situation, I feel less inclined to continue with this years project, and end up with upwards of 9 or 10 hatchling Royals in October that nobody wants as they too can't afford to keep them. 

So I've stopped the introductions, however prior to this energy crisis they had locked a few time over two previous introductions. If I am presented with a clutch that then places me in a real dilemma....to incubate the clutch or not.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Thrasops said:


> We had Oliver Witte,a specialist advisory board member for expertise and herpetoculture of the German Society for Herpetology and Herpetoculture (DGHT) give a talk at the recent AHH conference where he outlined this amazing initiative. I think literally every person sitting in that packed room was utterly taken aback at how this works, he was in fact the only speaker to receive several ovations and generated a lot of buzz over the possibility of setting up something similar here in the UK.
> 
> What the initiative entails is a series of examinations where private individuals are sent information on how to care for particular species and are then examined on them. If they pass they are loaned pairs of the animals at the expense of the DGHT, with the proviso any babies they breed go back for distribution to other keepers. I know in the UK we have had the Sand Lizard project which was really successful. Would be nice to see more such initiatives set up here.



This sounds great and I like it. Though I worry "the hobby" here in the UK is often much more money centric than that in Germany, the prospect of potentially sort of free animals will attract some of the wrong sorts of people. 

However I like this and once again the Germans are proving they are better than us at everything haha.


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

Malc said:


> So I've stopped the introductions, however prior to this energy crisis they had locked a few time over two previous introductions. If I am presented with a clutch that then places me in a real dilemma....to incubate the clutch or not.


Malc, would it be viable to reduce the female’s calorie intake such that she won’t go on to ovulate, even if she has already mated?
That could reduce the risk of you losing a female through medical complications whilst gravid, and also negates the dilemma of deciding whether to incubate or not.

Andy


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Swindinian said:


> Malc, would it be viable to reduce the female’s calorie intake such that she won’t go on to ovulate, even if she has already mated?
> That could reduce the risk of you losing a female through medical complications whilst gravid, and also negates the dilemma of deciding whether to incubate or not.
> 
> Andy


Andy, yes, she's on a restricted diet of just a 90g weaner rat every 14 days to reduce the chance of egg production, or at least the possibly reduce the chances of a large clutch. However keeping her this may means she's always on point which makes changing the water fun !


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

Malc said:


> Andy, yes, she's on a restricted diet of just a 90g weaner rat every 14 days to reduce the chance of egg production, or at least the possibly reduce the chances of a large clutch. However keeping her this may means she's always on point which makes changing the water fun !


😁 Haha, always more interesting when pets are sizing you up. 😳

My rainbow boas are so placid daytime, but the occasions I’ve resorted to doing husbandry late evenings tends to be way more spicy. 
They go from Dr Jeckle daytime, to Mr Hide nighttime, and it’s a totally different interaction, and food is most definitely on the agenda, even if there is no other cues (rodent/chick odours). But I do keep them lean and active, so hunger is a bigger driver In their motivations. 

Back to royals - I suppose there might also be the chance of retained sperm and ovulating at a later stage, although presumably less common?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

I normally pair her with a male of choice between January right up to June / July, and loose count of the number of locks. This time round it was a chance for the Pastave Enchi to lose his virginity, and had three locks prior to removing him and halting the project.... But they can and do retain sperm form what I've been told, so there could be a chance she falls gravid.... just have to wait and see.


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