# How emotive are you?



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi, 

I am in search for your responses here.

The following poll is aimed at campaigns we are curently reviewing and one of which is active, l am looking for results to find out which of the folowing campaigns mean more to the readership present within this forum.

In other words, what or which means more to you as a keeper.

It is a multichoice poll.

Many Thanks
Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby

Key:

*Focas on Unification 1:*

In principal is looking at the unification between all the fraternities.

*Focus on Society 2:*

In principal is looking at the reasons for the low memberships that currently hamper the keeping societies in the United Kingdom

*Retail Aid 3:*

In principal is to look at creating an administration for retailers within the United Kingdom to be united under one flagship with a view to supplying them with a constant supply of legislational information, care sheet supply, codes of conduct and so on.

*Vendors UK 4:*

Looks at and into the number of unregulated sellers within the United Kingdom.

*Tomorrows Keepers 5:*

Are we doing enough for the young keepers of today with a view to their keeping exotic companion animals in the future.

*European Protected Species 6:*

This indeed is an active campaign, and many of you will be all too familiar with the posts on this and many other forums about this piece of legislation introduced this year, 13 years after it was introduced into Europe.

*Skunk Descenting 7:*

earlier this year legislation [secondary] was passed meaning that it was now considered unlawful/illegal to descent entire skunks.

*Private Keepers' Licence 8:*

The lift of the 33 species off the DWAL - Dangerous Wild Animals Licence this year has meant that many species are now 'unregulated' by DEFRA - many keepers believe that although the licence did not do the right job to begin with has opened up a host of problems for now and the future of keeping exotic companion animals. A licence is being called for on many species that would be better served for the exotics keeper.

*The Primates & Keepers' Right 9*:

Should primates be kept in private hands, restricted or be banned?

*Lobbying The Opposition & Worthy of Investigation 10:*

Should we be looking more into the RSPCA and all those that oppose in the same degreee as they indeed look upon us.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

While all of the above are important for me as a keeper, I didn't mark 3 and 4 because I simply do not know enough and understand enough about the retail and vendoring side of things.

I do have a special interest in learning more and doing more rgarding tomorrow's keepers and again after reading a lot of information, about Lobbying the Opposition and Worthy of Investigation. Also have a keen interest in skunk descenting issues and how the AWa affects it


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

*Focas on Unification 1:* In principal is looking at the unification between all the fraternities.

_Yep._

*Focus on Society 2:* In principal is looking at the reasons for the low memberships that currently hamper the keeping societies in the United Kingdom

_No. Surely this is for the societies to work out for themselves._


*Retail Aid 3:* In principal is to look at creating an administration for retailers within the United Kingdom to be united under one flagship with a view to supplying them with a constant supply of legislational information, care sheet supply, codes of conduct and so on.

_Definately. This should be No 1 priority_

*Vendors UK 4:* Looks at and into the number of unregulated sellers within the United Kingdom.

_Why ? We have no power to do anything about it so why waste resources ?_


*Tomorrows Keepers 5:* Are we doing enough for the young keepers of today with a view to their keeping exotic companion animals in the future.

_Education... Education... Education..._


*European Protected Species 6:* This indeed is an active campaign, and many of you will be all too familiar with the posts on this and many other forums about this piece of legislation introduced this year, 13 years after it was introduced into Europe.

_What is happening with this ? So far we have seen two responses from Natural England, one to Devboy and one to Ssthisto both of which told us nothing ( Not Devs or PKL's fault, just the wording of the response ) ... _

*Skunk Descenting 7:* earlier this year legislation [secondary] was passed meaning that it was now considered unlawful/illegal to descent entire skunks.
_
No opinion_*

Private Keepers' Licence 8:* The lift of the 33 species off the DWAL - Dangerous Wild Animals Licence this year has meant that many species are now 'unregulated' by DEFRA - many keepers believe that although the licence did not do the right job to begin with has opened up a host of problems for now and the future of keeping exotic companion animals. A licence is being called for on many species that would be better served for the exotics keeper.

_No. No way should a keepers licence be issued. It should be down to the sellers to ensure that they sell their animals to appropriate buyers and down to the buyers to educate themselves on the animals they purchase before they do so. Again... all about research and correct care._

*The Primates & Keepers' Right 9*: Should primates be kept in private hands, restricted or be banned?

_No Opinion.
_ 
*Lobbying The Opposition & Worthy of Investigation 10:* Should we be looking more into the RSPCA and all those that oppose in the same degree as they indeed look upon us.

_No. What good would it do ? All it achieved last time was the RSPCA refused to work with the hobby.
_


To add an extra one :

*Correct Care 11:* Should we be looking into setting up educational material on the keeping of various species and getting it out to the public via courses and shops rather than spending time fighting battles against the antis which let's face it.... we will lose.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

ratboy said:


> To add an extra one :
> 
> *Correct Care 11:* Should we be looking into setting up educational material on the keeping of various species and getting it out to the public via courses and shops rather than spending time fighting battles against the antis which let's face it.... we will lose.


I agree totally with your number 11, i thik it is a key point, however, it is to some extant, IMO covered in the afformentioned points. 

jay


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

I voted 2, 3, 4, 8, 10.

I feel that *2* - the problem of low society membership - is something that definitely needs addressing. If more people were involved, it would be easier and more streamlined to spread information, and it may be possible to actually organise co-ordinated responses to things - e.g. expressing opposition to proposed changes etc.

*3* is definitely something worth looking at. As with 2, the more people (in this case retailers) that can be grouped together and informed, the more potentially powerful the body will become. As retailers are the sole link between a lot of keepers and the rest of the exotic world, it would make sense that retailers should be as up to date as possible - whether it be on husbandry practises, legislation etc. If retailers know that there are proposed changes, and they are given a means to advertise opposition to it, we would most likely see a dramatic increase in the number of people actually interested in opposing/agreeing with the change.

*4 *should be addressed and encouraged by ourselves, if only to remove some of the ammunition that the antis currently have - if we are pushing for tighter control of ourselves, that will hopefully send out a positive message. When I first started breeding, I was on the phone to the council to see if there was any inspection procedure, or even registration that I had to go through. They had no desire to inspect or regulate me, and was told that as long as I am only breeding *"a few hundred animals"* per year, and they are reptiles, not dogs/cats etc, and I don't own a commercial shop premises, they are not interested. Personally, I find that appalling! Even if councils have no interest in regulating it, I would like there to be some kind of independent body which sellers can "opt into", be inspected etc - if it was large enough, it would hopefully gain enough credibility that it became a nationwide standard - decent pet shops would only buy from "approved" breeders, and people who are up to date would also look out for this when buying privately. Obviously, it would be a logistical nightmare to setup, especially if it was nationwide. This could be something that is encouraged amongst societies - each society has a list of breeders/sellers that are "approved" by some generally-agreed-upon criteria, which it makes freely available.

The point I am least interested in is *7*. I don't feel it is right for PKL or whoever to just focus specifically on one fairly minor species, and one issue within the species, especially when there are much larger problems/potential problems. I am slightly reluctant to say this, for fear of it being taken the wrong way, but it could also be interpreted as you and Nerys having a secret agenda. For Nerys particularly, skunks are clearly important, and there are clear implications now with regard to breeding etc. I don't know if either of you breed skunks, but obviously with the descenting rules, the market has effectively been closed down.

*I am not for one minute suggesting that there is a conflict of interests there*, but if PKL decided to start taking fees etc, I would not be happy if a disproportionate amount of those fees were spent on campaigns about an animal that very few people within the exotic industry have any contact with, and that many of the top people within PKL may have a vested interest in. I could see that putting off a lot of other people as well.

Just my thoughts.

Andy


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

*Focas on Unification 1:* In principal is looking at the unification between all the fraternities.

_maybes_

*Focus on Society 2:* In principal is looking at the reasons for the low memberships that currently hamper the keeping societies in the United Kingdom

_no, it is up to societies to sort them selves out, but it clearly aint working the way they are_


*Retail Aid 3:* In principal is to look at creating an administration for retailers within the United Kingdom to be united under one flagship with a view to supplying them with a constant supply of legislational information, care sheet supply, codes of conduct and so on.

_i think so, and improving care guides education and how animals are sold_

*Vendors UK 4:* Looks at and into the number of unregulated sellers within the United Kingdom.

_dont see the point_


*Tomorrows Keepers 5:* Are we doing enough for the young keepers of today with a view to their keeping exotic companion animals in the future.

_probably not, but then most reptile organisations arent into education just the politics_


*European Protected Species 6:* This indeed is an active campaign, and many of you will be all too familiar with the posts on this and many other forums about this piece of legislation introduced this year, 13 years after it was introduced into Europe.

_no idea, nobody seems to be in the know_

*Skunk Descenting 7:* earlier this year legislation [secondary] was passed meaning that it was now considered unlawful/illegal to descent entire skunks.

_who knows_

*Private Keepers' Licence 8:* The lift of the 33 species off the DWAL - Dangerous Wild Animals Licence this year has meant that many species are now 'unregulated' by DEFRA - many keepers believe that although the licence did not do the right job to begin with has opened up a host of problems for now and the future of keeping exotic companion animals. A licence is being called for on many species that would be better served for the exotics keeper.

_the primary responsibiliity is the shop or breeder, the secondary being the keeper which i think should be educated by the sellers, criteria of sale would be much better, how would you enforce it, _
*The Primates & Keepers' Right 9*: Should primates be kept in private hands, restricted or be banned?

_difficult one, but they should defo have to join some organisation, i prefer restricted not banned, but only to people who actually do have an idea
_
*Lobbying The Opposition & Worthy of Investigation 10:* Should we be looking more into the RSPCA and all those that oppose in the same degree as they indeed look upon us.

_no point at all, they are who they are_


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> *Focas on Unification 1:*
> 
> In principal is looking at the unification between all the fraternities.
> 
> ...


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

I would be interested in anything to do with education mainly, I think keepers should prove that they know the basics before taking on an animal. So some sort of education programme ran by societies, retailers, collages, vets etc. Implementing something along these lines could also ensure that retailers, colleges etc are working along the same lines with education, helping to regulate the hobby somewhat. But then I believe this is a dream and possibly not a realistic one either, because up to now no one has actually got off their backsides to do much about it. How long have the FBH been supposedly working on basic care guides to be used in shops etc? They had lots of the work done for them, but 2 years or more on and I cant see any evidence of any moves forward with this initiative, yet so many passionate and knowledgeable people put time and effort into the drafts that they forwarded to the FBH. I would personally be willing to give up a couple of hours every week to work on this, as a volunteer, but then finding enough people who are passionate about a subject and able/willing to give time/input to a project is not easy, Ive tried it so many times over the last few years and not many people stay committed. Anyway enough waffle about that - I'm obviously very eager to improve animal care through education.

I would rather be involved with conservation projects than most of the other projects mentioned.
I love being able to keep pets, but at the end of the day there are so many things in life that I would rather fight for, causes that are more worthy to me such as starving or abused people or trying to help with conservation projects. Maybe this is a factor for the so called "apathy" of people who do not go to shows or become involved in the politics side of the hobby. We have to keep things in perspective and realise that people have very active lives these days and all too often, very little spare time. So when faced with getting involved with political stuff which often goes no where, I for one do not blame people for choosing to support other causes, surely Im not the only person on here with more than one hobby/interest. 
I would support some initiatives, but within reason and also depending on tactics employed. I for one am not a fan of sensationalising or scare mongering to get a point across, I believe there are other ways to get points across and you cannot force people into getting involved.


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## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

I voted on Vendors UK and Skunk Descenting - not neccessarily because I believe the PKL can do more about these issues than any others listed, or that they are more important, but they are the closest to my heart.

I am deeply concerned about the future of skunk keeping/breeding in the UK, how many "backstreet cutters" will begin descenting litters, and how many will we lose in the process? I'm sure Rory that you already understand why these issues are close to my heart.

As for Vendors.. can we really do anything about the numbers of unlicensed, unscrupulous and unregulated sellers operating in the UK? I dont know...
Would I like something to be done? Of course!

Having seen the conditions some of these animals are brought into the country in.. (again I am mostly thinking skunks, but it is true of many species) something needs to be done on some level. I would love to see self-regulation of the hobby and less reliance on draconian legislation.


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## Andy b 1 (May 14, 2007)

anyone ever smelt an un-desecented skunk?


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Andy b 1 said:


> anyone ever smelt an un-desecented skunk?


Yes, have you?


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*So Far*

You are wanting to see campaigns in this order:

Retail Aid 3
Tomorrow Keepers 5 
Focas on Unification 1 
Vendors UK 4
Lobbying the Opposition/Worthy of Investigation 10 
Focus On Society 2 
European Protected Species 6 
Skunk Descenting 7 
Private Keepers' Licence 8 
Primates & Keepers Rights 9 

R
PKL


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Its interesting to see these results.

The general theme is education to private keepers and Retailer aid.

These are linked to each other in many ways.

As are societies and education and tommorows keepers

I belive all the options are fully viable, but if we work smart, addressing one will lead into the next, thus making the overall goal more acheivable.

I know I have spoken to Rory about different ideas, and I think we are almost there with the ideas, putting into practice may be more tricky.

Societies are a difficult area, yes they do seem closed to ideas (in some cases) but lets face it if they didnt work, they wouldnt be around. 

My own society is very isolated yet we get good attendance each month, and everyone has a great time and are learning all the time. Is there more that we can do as a society to promote our hobby, Yes, most certainly, and thats being looked at as we speak, as a direct result of Rory and his first posts !

Retailers are generally doing a good job, yes, some need to pull thier socks up, but others are getting to grips with things and well done to them. However, any retail aid will have to be backed by knowledgable sources with in the industry or they will just be seen as more 'restrictions'

We already see from this forum the amount of differences there are between different keepers for the same species, how can we hope to provide education to tommorrows keepers if we spend more time disagreeing with ourselves.

Basicly, I belive unification is the way forward to all these issues. Good basic agreement held under the banner of one united body. That body will of course be made up from many areas, and as such will be able to advise 'recommended practice' . 

It would also be a force to be reckoned with within whitehall, and have a voice louder than ever before in the industry, simply because its US, united with all the other groups, agreeing on the way forward, in a clear pratical way. Its US putting forward our own policy, its US cleaning up our own house.

I know many will disagree with me, and thats thier right, we are currently free to express that. We all have our own areas of interest that matter to us more than other areas. 

I simply belive with out a good foundation, we have nothing.


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

ratboy said:


> To add an extra one :
> 
> *Correct Care 11:* Should we be looking into setting up educational material on the keeping of various species and getting it out to the public via courses and shops rather than spending time fighting battles against the antis which let's face it.... we will lose.


This would be my top priority too .... excellent post ratboy.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Tbh*

The Retail Aid administration is aimed at the introduction of this in addition to other aspects.

Its one thing to establish educational material, its another to have it recognised.

I think that if we were to have it recognised this would be a major step forwards.

But as you know Ratboy, you and l have discussed this on a couple of other forums not forgetting other discussions we have held in the past concerning this content also.

In response to the other note, whether campaigning directly against the opposition or indirectly.

Anything that is seen coming from the pro side to keeping will be noted as lobbying, you must remember that the antis view us as a niche group who appear not to have any voice, nor motivation into improving things.

To date nothing , *'nothing'* has been significantly done to achieve anything in this direction, whether this be apathy, ignorance or a general 'can not be bothered syndrome' l don't know.

I am not talking of what the individual or independant may provide to better themselves or their business, l am talking from the political side to pro keeping, finances have been secured to what campaigns?

Or better still what funding do we have for campaigns?

If we were to have funds, then perhaps campaigns could have been raised, but we simply do not.

We must raise the finances independantly if we want to greatly achieve results.

R
PKL


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Primates*

Has the lowest vote.

There would perhaps be a few on this forum that may well keep primates.

Many of the readers here probably do not, many probably feel they should not be kept in private captivity, and to a small degree you would be right.

Is a ban an answer?

NO.

Is tighter control and restriction on future ownership the answer?

YES.

If they are banned, you must ask yourself this one question.

What next?

primates are considered a 'politically sensitive species' as indeed are specialist cat species. But then so are DWAL covered animals, and also, let us not forget the EPS species, now they are too a politically sensitive species.......now. Last year they were not.

But what could be classed as politically sensitive in the new year?

Skunks perhaps, there are in the region of roughly 700 skunks in the UK at present, it could be a higher figure. What proportion of those are descented? 90%?

We do believe that this campaign is worthy as do many other skunk keepers.

Just because they are not to be descented legally, do you think this will stop the cutting?

Of course not! Except instead of it being performed professionally it will be done without clinical support.

The fact is that many of these campaigns are aimed at politically sensitive species.

Unification, means bringing everyone together fighting for the same cause - to prevent bannings and restrictions in our futures. This means that whether you are reptile keeper or an mammal keeper, you may have differing opinions of what should be kept and how, but as you are both keepers - fight for the end result, not the current state of play.

I keep a skunk, you keep a primate, l may not agree with you nor you of l, but together we will fight for our rights to keep what we choose to keep. As long as our husbandry is sound, and our animals are cared for, loved, kept safe, are we wrong?

R
PKL


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## This is my Clone (Jul 8, 2007)

I voted for 3, because the amount of shops I have seen, or heard about, that don't give the animals even the most basic requirements is shocking.

If the shops were educated, they in turn would educate the buyers. Of course this wouldn't have a blanket effect, as there are plently of private sellers, and cowboy shops. However I think it would have a positive impact.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*Unregulated sellers*

Vendors Uk, looks into the number of differing selling facilities and sellers we have in the UK that are doing damage to the market.

I want TSKA to be licenced as either an internet or landbased seller or indeed both.

My fear and many of you will know is that l disapproved of primates coming off the dwal. Lets be honest there were undoubtedly many keepers out there that held dwal primates with no licence, now they are legal to hold those same primates with no licence. Then they would also have sold to non licenced holders and now its 'okay' to do so.

But in this one market alone, primates bothers me, they are politically sensitive and just how many sellers out there do more damage to this market place by not being concerned about what happens to the primates, or for that matter where they go, traceability?

My posts on primates may inflame some keepers, if you feel guilt or annoyance at this - tough - more responsibility needs to be adhered to , not just on this species but on all species.

Our market is way too disposable and commercial now, everything is too easy, and selling is one of them.

Licenced sellers is the way forwards, this alone may inflame many reptile sellers, whom are unlicenced now, as well as inflame hobbyists who sell at shows, would, should, could this affect you - yes.

At present the good, responsible sellers are too few, they are unregulated, 'cowboy' to coign E/Lizz'ds own post.

If we want to stabilise the market we must tow the rope and be seen to be responsible. There should be more support to retailers, better relationships between the market and the market place.

Improved selling conditions, codes of conduct [yes where the hell are they???], all these issues and topics need to be addressed correctly.

Do the unregulated sellers really give a damn? Its a retailers job, to make sure that the best image is highlighted to the buyer, their reputation rests on that ability to sell the educational aspect to a potential keeper, novice or experienced veteran.

Retail Aid: Flagship Administration is designed at improving the impact that retailers have on their buyers, but in the same breath, it is designed in supporting the retailer.

R
PKL


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

What is slightly alarming - even with the low polling numbers present here, is the fact that Focus on Society, a campaign within the Focas on unification campaign but aimed at increasing society membershipis very low?

Is there so little faith in Societies in general?

R


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