# Huge Rant From the Dark Side



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Maybe I’m being oversensitive here but pet shops seem to take a lot of criticism here: staff, prices, knowledge and husbandry etc. 
It all seems very contrary when so many members seem to want careers in the animal care industry but are reluctant to because it pays peanuts, it pays peanuts because people want everything cheap. 
Of course it’s cheaper to buy your choice of pet from the breeder but it’s also cheaper to buy DVDs off a bloke in a pub. Breeders of small animals/reptiles and birds are unlicensed, unlegislated, uninspected and don’t have to have any qualifications other than the ability to add 1 + 1 and come up with loads of babies to sell. 
Pet shops have huge overheads, staff to pay and standards to achieve – and also fall victim to uneducated inspectors. 
Most of the people that I see with pet related problems, have these problems because they got their pet from a private seller with no reputation to protect and no fear of redress when things go wrong. I regularly have to identify birds and reptiles that people have acquired from some random person and they don’t even know what it is.
I have worked in various branches of the animal care industry for 30 years and I get sick of people telling me what the breeder/their mate/their mates mum said. 
Pet shops are the first place people go when or before they get a new animal. It’s the pet shops that are in a position to offer guidance and hopefully get people off on the right footing. As a pet shop employee I have to have knowledge of the husbandry, behaviour and health of rodents, lagamorphs, cats, dogs, reptiles, amphibians, birds and fish as well as knowledge of all the accessories that are available and how they should be used.
Just because I work in a pet shop doesn’t mean my opinions/knowledge and experiences are invalid, and it doesn’t mean I’m stupid! Respect the staff in your local pet shop!

Rant over – just wanted to get that off my chest.


----------



## rob-stl-07 (Jun 3, 2007)

tbh its only a few who are that stereotypical, i think pet stores are ok just that some are'nt experienced with reptiles.


----------



## vikki_john (Jul 16, 2007)

I have a friend who works at a rep shop part time while at uni. You say that people moan about the prices , he calls it tight bast**d syndrome a horrible disease that spreads through the reptile hobbyists lol he's also aware that people on forums say bad things about reptile shops but he takes the piss out forums. Be interesting to see what people say about your rant. I see where your coming from


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Ive got no beef with pet shop prices, its the lack of knowledge the staff have, poor husbandry and cleanliness i have a problem with. 

Its only a minority of shops that are 100% behind the animals over the sale nowadays, how many quarenteen animals nowadays? None that i can think of.


----------



## rob-stl-07 (Jun 3, 2007)

listen if your having a rant have it in your head m8, u dnt need to tell us. your experienced: good
you know what your on about: good
you moan: BAD


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

rob-stl-07 said:


> listen if your having a rant have it in your head m8, u dnt need to tell us. your experienced: good
> you know what your on about: good
> you moan: BAD


You read it, you replied to it so it must have been worth posting. 
I feel better for saying it and you're a great listener petal thanks x : victory:


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

&









Some are good, some are bad but as usual you only hear about the crap or the amazing. It's just as difficult to defend all pet shops as it is to find the praise for all the good ones. Some care about the animals and some just shift them as a a comodity like second hand cars.


----------



## rob-stl-07 (Jun 3, 2007)

so where do the playgrounds come from? :lol:


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Meko said:


> Some are good, some are bad but as usual you only hear about the crap or the amazing. It's just as difficult to defend all pet shops as it is to find the praise for all the good ones. Some care about the animals and some just shift them as a a comodity like second hand cars.


I'm not trying to defend all pet shops, I know there are good and bad and you can have as much knowledge as you like but if you don't use it for the good then it's not worth having. I've politely turned away 4 people this week who wanted to buy a reptile - and it's only Tuesday - that leaves our reptile livestock sales for the wek at 0 - but I sold 4 reptile books :lol:

Sorry for moaning though, spend all day being polite so it's good to have a bit of a roar.


----------



## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

There are good shops and bad, and as said its only those you generally hear about. I don't mind payin pet shop prices for an animal that is well looked after and cared for, my BTS was 90 quid, but he was from somewhere where I know they are well cared for and the guys know their stuff....

: victory:


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

rob-stl-07 said:


> so where do the playgrounds come from? :lol:


the local council usually :whistling2:


----------



## RussianTort55 (Jun 9, 2007)

its not that, its just every pet shop i have ever been in has a 13 year old chav telling me i need a heat rock for my royal boa. Its rare to find a decent one that actually wants to help and care about the animals, most are in it purely for the money and couldnt care less about the animals. I have yet to come across a pet shop that i would actually buy a reptile from. (experiance from visiting the pet shops around here)


----------



## solid (Nov 20, 2007)

To defend the decent breeders though - its up to you as the buyer to vet the shop or breeder you are buying from. If you choose to buy an animal without seeing it then more fool you. If you vet a breeder and are happy with what you see then you WILL save money so i'd much rather do that.

The problem with some rep / pet shops is that as you say, there are big overheads - this means to improve profit they have to put a premium on the animal - it has nothing to do with it being better than one from a breeder because of licensing or staff knowledge - its money, plain and simple.

The other issue then is that the other way to increase profit is to cut corners and thats why there are so many bad ones.

I have no idea what your shop is like or where it is so i can't comment but in my experiance there is at least one bad one for every good one.

And i have bought snakes from both breeders AND shops - and i travelled to make sure i got a quality animal - and in return i have never had an issue with advice or feeding or illness (except one lot of mites - but no proof of origin) - that includes trips from Bournemouth to London, Bristol, Leeds, Huddersfield and Birmingham.

I get what you're saying and good on you for piping up - but also, just because breeders don't have licensing or training doesn't mean shops are better.

I've personally learnt a hell of a lot more from asking breeders questions (and keepers of experience) than rep shop staff.

Anyway, thats my personal experience NOT a generalisation: victory:


----------



## JPReptiles (Dec 2, 2007)

solid said:


> To defend the decent breeders though - its up to you as the buyer to vet the shop or breeder you are buying from. If you choose to buy an animal without seeing it then more fool you. If you vet a breeder and are happy with what you see then you WILL save money so i'd much rather do that.
> 
> The problem with some rep / pet shops is that as you say, there are big overheads - this means to improve profit they have to put a premium on the animal - it has nothing to do with it being better than one from a breeder because of licensing or staff knowledge - its money, plain and simple.
> 
> ...


This is the shop i go to Reddish Reptiles
And they have a very good knowledge of the animals they sell........
IMO I have been to a few that know nothing! but there is some out there that actually know what they are doing.

John


----------



## Moosey (Jan 7, 2008)

Evie said:


> Maybe I’m being oversensitive here but pet shops seem to take a lot of criticism here: staff, prices, knowledge and husbandry etc.
> It all seems very contrary when so many members seem to want careers in the animal care industry but are reluctant to because it pays peanuts, it pays peanuts because people want everything cheap.
> Of course it’s cheaper to buy your choice of pet from the breeder but it’s also cheaper to buy DVDs off a bloke in a pub. Breeders of small animals/reptiles and birds are unlicensed, unlegislated, uninspected and don’t have to have any qualifications other than the ability to add 1 + 1 and come up with loads of babies to sell.
> Pet shops have huge overheads, staff to pay and standards to achieve – and also fall victim to uneducated inspectors.
> ...


I dont think you're being oversensitive at all mate, i completely agree


----------



## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

Reptile world said:


> This is the shop i go to Reddish Reptiles
> And they have a very good knowledge of the animals they sell........
> IMO I have been to a few that know nothing! but there is some out there that actually know what they are doing.
> 
> John


Dont you work there?


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> > Maybe I’m being oversensitive here but pet shops seem to take a lot of criticism here: staff, prices, knowledge and husbandry etc.
> > It all seems very contrary when so many members seem to want careers in the animal care industry but are reluctant to because it pays peanuts, it pays peanuts because people want everything cheap.
> > Of course it’s cheaper to buy your choice of pet from the breeder but it’s also cheaper to buy DVDs off a bloke in a pub.
> 
> ...


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Stuart, I just spent ages giving your post a careful and considered reply - but it took a while and by the time I was ready to post it, the flipping forum had timed me out. I can't be bothered to do it again so you'll just have to take my word for it that it was REALLY good :lol2:

Oh and btw I have forgotten more about my particular specialist species than most people will ever know. :whistling2:


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Stuart, I just spent ages giving your post a careful and considered reply - but it took a while and by the time I was ready to post it, the flipping forum had timed me out. I can't be bothered to do it again so you'll just have to take my word for it that it was REALLY good :lol2:
> 
> Oh and btw I have forgotten more about my particular specialist species than most people will ever know. :whistling2:


Yeah ok, I'll assume your answer would have completely blown me out of the water. Its a shame you have such valid points to make yet can't be bothered to make them! Still, I suppose its hard for you guys with all your qualifications to lower yourselves to the level of the private hobbyist/breeder! :lol2:

I never said you didn't have an area of specialism. I merely highlighted the fact that since you offer advice on lots of species you therefore offer advice on species that you don't specialise in. To my mind that's not in the best interests of the consumer, regardless of any good intentions that you may have towards them and their new pet.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Only read the first post...
How can you compare a breeder to a bloke selling pirated dvd's down the pub?

wholesalers are some of the worse places in regards to how the animals and kept before being moved on to the shops [especially those most shops use as standard]

No breeders on here as far a si know shift pets to people and dont tell them how to look after them..quite the opposite mostly...

if you coem from a good rep shop where the local breederes are pants..then thats where you are and thats fair [but a terrible shame] but if you hear someone here having a go about a particular shop...then you have to either think they ar ebeing harsh..or admit what they do is bad.

People dont moan about shops "because they are shops" rather..because they are "bad rep shops"
The goo dones get there praises sung.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

If i came across a shop keeping animals contary to AWA or misleading possible customers, I would react the same way as I would if it were a private breeder that was doing the same.

Its not shops that get the bashing, its bad shops, and I am sure if u had a read through many of the posts on here, the same happens to bad breeders.

Private breeders DONT need to be licenced, holders of PSL know whats needed to abide by them, and still 'some' dont.

As for the DVD, well I am off down the pub to sell this pretend gecko that I made, some gulible keeper will want him cos he is cheap.


----------



## talltom69 (Dec 8, 2006)

As with all things in life there is the good and the bad.

I have been to some pet shops and been disgusted in the conditions of the animals and the way they are kept, the poor advice that has been given and the hooky animals thye sell.

I have been to other shops and been amazed how the animals are kept, the professionalism shown and the great quality of animals.

As for private breeders there are some amazing breeders who have years of knowledge, especially in that particular type of animal (if they specialise in that one) and I would rather buy a pet of them than a shop any day, but saying that there are those breeders who are out to make a quick buck and dont really care about the animals, so long as they can get them in and out making as much profit as possible.

I bought a Royal from a "good" shop and the CB turned out to be a forced fed CF individual that had ticks on it and this cost £90.

Since that experience I have and will only buy now from the big named shops and the odd private breeder who I know take great care in what they do and this is shown in the price and the quality of the animal.

Some of my best Royals have been bought for around £20-30 and I couldn't ever see a shop selling them for that price due to overheads.

Yes we are a tight nation, but would you pay £100 for a snake or animal from a shop or £50 for the same one from a good breeder that is in just as good condition if not better.

I see a lot more threads on here about bad shops than bad breeders.

Again there is good and bad in everything

(sorry if its incohearant rabble, im tired lol)


----------



## Reptilerescueden (Jan 2, 2006)

I have been in numerous shops local to me and overheard conversations regarding the wrong husbandry or even seen with my own eyes. But yes there are the odd good shop around, not many however. But it's like everything else... you can't please everyone. As for breeders on here, I can't fault them.

With rescueing the majority of problems I have encounters has been with people who have APPARENTLY been given ill advice from a shop.


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

I am very much aware that there are good and bad pet shops. The point that I was making is that it is wrong to assume that pet shop staff know nothing. 
It is also worth being aware that if the local pet shop is killed off, the trade would be picked up by the supermarket chains – just like in the USA. Now that would be unfortunate. 
If a pet shop supplies the fundamental care information and care sheets for an animal they sell, why should they be under any obligation to do anymore than that? Therefore why should I have to be an ‘expert’ in any particular species? At which point does the responsibility lie with the owner to learn for themselves? I know there are welfare issues to be addressed with animals but if I buy a pc I don’t come out of the shop knowing how it works – I have to find out myself right?
Anyhow the point I am making is that I do what I do to earn a living in an area that I find interesting. I do the best job I can within the framework of the industry. An industry that we ALL are a part of directly or indirectly, even though it is an industry that leaves a lot to be desired.
Breeders seem to think they have the moral high ground here and being a *specialist *in a single species makes them very important. I think it makes you narrow minded and oblivious to the bigger picture. Just look what *specialist,* caring, selective breeding for particular cosmetic traits did to the domestic dog – more health issues there than in any other species. Is it really a good idea to take a species with its own natural beauty and gild the lily by trying to change the colours? Sorry but I see no useful purpose in that. Most domestic animals have smaller brains than their wild counterparts thanks to selective breeding by mankind. Selective breeding for one trait often brings with it something unpredicted and it might not be immediately obvious read this if you want an example.Norway rat coat color, temperament, and domestication 
Gone off at a tangent now haven’t I ………….I’ll get me coat.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I am very much aware that there are good and bad pet shops. The point that I was making is that it is wrong to assume that pet shop staff know nothing.
> It is also worth being aware that if the local pet shop is killed off, the trade would be picked up by the supermarket chains – just like in the USA. Now that would be unfortunate.
> If a pet shop supplies the fundamental care information and care sheets for an animal they sell, why should they be under any obligation to do anymore than that? Therefore why should I have to be an ‘expert’ in any particular species? At which point does the responsibility lie with the owner to learn for themselves? I know there are welfare issues to be addressed with animals but if I buy a pc I don’t come out of the shop knowing how it works – I have to find out myself right?
> Anyhow the point I am making is that I do what I do to earn a living in an area that I find interesting. I do the best job I can within the framework of the industry. An industry that we ALL are a part of directly or indirectly, even though it is an industry that leaves a lot to be desired.
> ...


Not only have you gone off on one hell of a tangent (several tangents, infact), but you're now making a very different argument to that made in your initial post. 

In your first post you painted a picture of how pet shops and their workers were superior to breeders due to the licences and qualifications etc. The breeder was compared to a pirate DVD seller who's efforts amounted to nothing more than "adding 1+1 together" to bang out a load of babies. You portrayed pet shops as the moral backbone of our hobby and suggested that they cleaned up the mess created by breeders and that they were the ones who offered guidance and got people off to a good start. 

Now, however, your saying that as long as the pet shop hands out a few care sheets they have no further obligation to the customer! You're now trying to pass back the responsibility to the consumer by suggesting that they need to learn for themselves. So much for offering guidance, eh! Handing out a few care sheets and giving the most basic of information is not what I'd call getting people off to a good start and its certainly less customer care and advice than you'd get from a reputable breeder. And that's an unlicensed, unregulated, and unqualified breeder to boot!!

I have no problem with your sentiments, they are undoubtedly good. Here's the problem - and you sum it up perfectly when you say that you do what you do to earn a living within the framework of the industry that you're working in - the problem is the nature of the industry! Pet shops are middlemen, they are dealers. They make money by either selling on someone elses captive bred animals or by selling WC or farmed stock. In the first instance the consumer gets a good quality animal, but they pay more than they could by going direct to the breeder. In the second scenario they get an inferior quality animal which probably isn't that different in price to a genuine CB direct from the breeder. I just can't see how the consumer wins by buying from a pet shop! (Especially if you're now saying the pet shop industry doesn't have or want the same level of responsibility that you implied in your first post).

You are correct when you say that some breeders have an over-exaggerated sense of their own importance, but the fact remains that consumers are better off getting advice on a particular species from a specialist in that particular species rather than getting it from someone who has good general knowledge of a lot of species but doesn't know about the species in question in any great detail (and as you suggest, may infact do nothing more than hand them a basic care sheet!). This is true in all areas of human knowledge. 

For example, if you have cancer your GP will refer you to a cancer specialist. He won't try and treat you himself just because he has a good level of general knowledge when it comes to health and illnesses. To get the best advice on any subject you need to speak to the specialists. Pet shops are like the GP's of our hobby, good general knowledge but thats about it. They're the first port of call for the novices but most serious hobbyists don't buy pet shop animals IMO.

I wont comment on Norwegian Rats, dogs, or your position regarding selective morph breeding as these are all completely different arguments that dont really have anything to do with your initial position.

Close the door on your way out! :lol2:


----------



## kaimarion (Dec 31, 2007)

The shop or breeder shouldn't be selling to said customers if they don't even know the basic care for the animal they are buying.
And I'am chosin to ignore that comment on adding 1+1 together.


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

The people moaning that shops sell WC or CF animals....well if they didnt where would all your CB animals come from in the first place?! 

Most shops stock does come from specialist breeders so as long as they are kept in good conditions then it shouldnt be a problem. Judging by the state of some breeders set-ups that I have seen posted on here most shops do keep them better.: victory:


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> The people moaning that shops sell WC or CF animals....well if they didnt where would all your CB animals come from in the first place?!
> 
> Most shops stock does come from specialist breeders so as long as they are kept in good conditions then it shouldnt be a problem. Judging by the state of some breeders set-ups that I have seen posted on here most shops do keep them better.: victory:


Of course all CB stock originates from wild caught animals. However, and this is the crucial point, many of the WC and CF animals that pet shops now sell are not examples of obscure species that you can't obtain as a CB animal. Pet shops still sell a lot CF royal pythons, for example, despite the fact that there is a very well established CB pool from which stock is now being produced. Pet shops sell CF royals (often at CB prices!) because its cheaper for them to buy them in and that way they can maximise their profits. It has nothing to do with pet shops sitting at the cutting edge of the industry and providing breeders with founding WC stock for new species captive breeding projects.

For what its worth, I have no major problem with pet shops selling WC or CF animals as long as they are labelled as such so that we, as consumers, knows all the facts before we make the purchase. What I do object to is when WC and CF animals are labelled as CB. Not only is this extremely dishonest but it is also, somewhat ironically, an inadvertant admission by the pet shop that they know CB is superior to CF and WC. If you think this only goes on in the less well known shops then I can assure you it doesn't.

I question your statement that most pet shop stock comes from specialist breeders. Which breeders?? Certainly not the most respected ones in the industry who make a living out of what they do. I do not know of any well respected breeder that makes a living by consistently supplying the pet shop trade. Why would they when they could make more money by selling direct to the public themselves?? When you say specialist breeders I think you actually mean specialist dealers and/or specialist breeding farms which churn out high number of animals relatively cheaply because they are often based overseas with lower over-heads.

The best pet shop I've ever seen is Millenium Reptiles in Bishops Stortford. The shop is basically an outlet for the owners own CB babies. Granted, it isn't crammed full of 100's of different species but, as we all know, quality is better than quantity. Why can't more pet shops adopt that kind of approach???


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Evie said:


> I know there are welfare issues to be addressed with animals but if I buy a pc I don’t come out of the shop knowing how it works – I have to find out myself right?
> .


There in lays my problem.

These animals are 'just' stock to pet shops.

Yes, many shops DO care for thier stock , but there are to many that take the attitude thats all they are, stock.

I have lost count the number of times animals have been likened to washing machines, cars, dvds, and now PC's.

It is beyond me how that kind of statement can be made ! FFS since when is any man made inanimate object akin to a life form?

If a buyer dont know how to use a pc, tuff luck, it wont work. If a buyer dont know how to care for an animal, tuff luck , it DIES. !

Yes, buyers of animals have the same responsiblity as sellers regarding welfare knowledge, and thats why they ask questions in the shop.

Thats why staff should know about the animals basic care needs.

Thats why I have a beef about SOME pet shops, but by no means ALL.

Keep the animals well, give correct info and you cant go wrong, its not rocket science.

Skimp on food, space by putting different species together, costs by not using correct equipment, space by overcrowding and money and time by lack of training, and hey presto, a bad shop

AND the same goes for breeders who do the same !


Anyways, I am going to slip back to my lab and carry on working on this 6 legged leo that can recieve digital tv via its tail.... frankinstiens monster leo ! 

:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Oh, forgot to say...

if a computer shop sells a pc which has a fault, say scratch or dent or something that may affect its ability to work, they have to say.

so, dont you think its right that if a pet shop offers a wc animal, they should state the possible problems with parasites, stress etc?

Or just pass it on for someone else to deal with ??

I am sorry to go on, but i do know may great pet shops, some of whom come on this forum and help out at no cost, but your first statement is just pure trolling.


----------



## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

Just thought I'd throw out a few things ...

Yes, anyone who sells an animal has a moral responsibility to ensure that the person who is receiving it knows how to take care of it's basic needs. They don't need to inform the buyer how to breed, what specific things worked best for them or saved them time etc etc. They need to know the basics and what common things can go wrong and need to be avoided/done to ensure a healthy captive animal. Ideally, this should all be outlined in a care sheet, that's what they're there for. Yes, many shops and breeders alike go out of their way to provide free advice long after the sale and many will even help if you've made a mistake, but it IS up to the buyer to research everything they own. If they notice something has changed with their animal and it's not covered in the advice they were given, they should research what it could possibly be, etc. Just common sense. The average pet shop will give this information, and so will the average breeder. I have seen negative extremes of both. You say pet shops are just out for the money, you'd be surprised how many 'breeders' are the same. And breeders have them from day 1. A lot more can be done to negatively impact an animal in the first 3-6 weeks of it's life than by the time most pet shops will get them in, assuming they haven't bred them themselves.

Another thing is you may be surprised how many of the larger breeders DO sell their 'stock' to pet shops, but mainly the 'normals', and often at a reduced enough price that the pet shop can sell it and be competitive with some breeders. It's a problem of distribution. When these animals hatch/are born, they require a considerable cost. Large breeders don't want to be stuck trying to sell one by one, so they use distributors in the form of pet shops and even wholesalers.

In terms of pet shops selling cf/wc when CB is available, perhaps, and Royals is probably the largest example, followed by water dragons, but I can't think of a great many others. Can't get cf/wc Beardies, Corns(not any cheaper anyway), boas(commons anyway, and some people actually prefer WC bcc to be ensured purity as so many BREEDERS have muddied the waters)

Yes, selling something AS CB when it's cf/wc is obviously wrong, but I know at least in ours we do try our best to get cb if it's available, even Fat tailed geckos and especially royals. It's also a shops responsibility and possibly even a law, that they must sell healthy animals. To us this includes proper feeding. We learned the hard way that yes, you can get CF in cheaper, but if you can only sell 3 in 10, and the rest you have to spend a lot of time on and some don't make it regardless, you're losing out from getting CB anyway. I think most shops that have been around more than a year know that.

Hrm...this ended up being way too long, oh well, guess no one's gonna read it heh, s'okay, only rambling anyway

edit: just wanted to add, a shop has as much of a reason to uphold it's reputation as a breeder and any good shop knows that providing sub-standard advice and inferior animals at inflated prices isn't going to get them far


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> any good shop knows that providing sub-standard advice and inferior animals at inflated prices isn't going to get them far


Really?? If the only way to succeed as a pet shop is to sell quality animals and offer good advice why do so many that don't do that stay in business? Infact, more than stay in business, thrive in business! 

The proof is in the pudding, as they say. The fact that we continue to constantly hear so many horror stories about shops (many more than we do about breeders) suggests that shops are not driven out of business by their poor standards at all. Shops survive on a constant influx of "newbies" into the hobby, they survive on people that don't know enough to know better.


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

essexchondro said:


> I question your statement that most pet shop stock comes from specialist breeders. Which breeders?? Certainly not the most respected ones in the industry who make a living out of what they do. I do not know of any well respected breeder that makes a living by consistently supplying the pet shop trade. Why would they when they could make more money by selling direct to the public themselves?? When you say specialist breeders *I think you actually mean specialist dealers and/or specialist breeding farms which churn out high number of animals relatively cheaply because they are often based overseas with lower over-heads*.


You think wrong, when I say specialist breeders I am referring to people who specialise in one species like you were mentioning before. Like all the corn snakes that are not WC and the beardies that arent WC etc etc that are pet shops bread and butter. I am can only talk about the couple of shops in my area here as I dont travel to other areas to look at shops. I know of a couple of well respected breeders of various reptiles who ONLY sell to shops and a couple of friends. At the end of the day without reptile shops the hobby as a whole would soon die out and there are many shops I would rather go to than some breeder on the internet. Just as there are bad shops there are equally bad breeders: victory:


----------



## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Shops survive on a constant influx of "newbies" into the hobby, they survive on people that don't know enough to know better.


I think your generalization is analogous to racism. Yes, some do, but as councils get more strict and there is a larger 'herp community', they wont be able to get away with the same things that they did 10 years ago. I could tell you plenty of horror stories about 'breeders' in this area. People who think feeding up neonates involves waving a couple rat pups around in a tank of the whole litter and whichever gets it gets it. People who buy up anything cheap and breedable then sell it on for a profit once they get eggs etc etc. It's just pet shops are more in the public eye, and as such gain more scrutiny, as well they should if there's a problem.


----------



## BecciBoo (Aug 31, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Still, I suppose its hard for you guys with all your qualifications to lower yourselves to the level of the private hobbyist/breeder! :lol2:


Hey...I'm a private hobbyist/breeder and I have loads of animaly qualifications :lol2:


Anyway....I have to agree with essexchondro and most of the other guys on here. I could write a massive reason why but I'd just be saying the same as everyone else. There are GOOD pet shops that I would happily buy reptiles from, paying pet shop prices such as Snakes n Adders! But there are other shops that I would never step foot in again!

I think you will find that most private breeders specialise in one or two species and therefore have much more knowlege about that particular species...they also love their breeding stock because to most of us they are also our pets!


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I think your generalization is analogous to racism. Yes, some do, but as councils get more strict and there is a larger 'herp community', they wont be able to get away with the same things that they did 10 years ago. I could tell you plenty of horror stories about 'breeders' in this area. People who think feeding up neonates involves waving a couple rat pups around in a tank of the whole litter and whichever gets it gets it. People who buy up anything cheap and breedable then sell it on for a profit once they get eggs etc etc. It's just pet shops are more in the public eye, and as such gain more scrutiny, as well they should if there's a problem.


 
This whole thread is about generalisations. We are talking in general terms about the state of the pet shop industry (and in some instances in comparison to breeders). Unless we are talking about a specific shop and/or breeder then every statement that we make on this subject is a generalisation!! (Incidently, the only specific pet shop that I mentioned got positive comments from me).

I really don't understand where the racism analogy comes into it. Unless, of course, you're saying that making any kind of general statement is akin to holding a (racist) prejudice?? If that is the case then you're making it very difficult for any of us to hold a conversation on this (or any) subject without being labelled as a bigot regardless of which side of the debate we come down on. 

If every shop I'd been in was fantastic (like the specific one I mentioned) then my general opinion on the pet shop industry would be different (I have no innate hatred of pet shops). However, the fact of the matter is that, on the whole, I find pet shops to be over-stocked with inferior quality animals being sold by people with limited knowledge who are motivated more by the £'s than they are by a passion for the hobby. That's my general experience. If that makes me prejudice then so be it. The ball is in the court of the pet shop industry to make me see otherwise.

cheers

Stuart


----------



## Stoke Lad (Jan 26, 2007)

YouTube - Monty Python - Dead Parrot

*only joking* :lol2:


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

BecciBoo said:


> I think you will find that most private breeders specialise in one or two species and therefore have much more knowlege about that particular species...they also love their breeding stock because to most of us they are also our pets!


I wish this was true  I'm sure it is true of people who frequent RFUK and similar places, sharing knowledge etc. However I have known breeders who keep their animals in horrific conditions, akin to puppy farms, but snake farms. Claim to be private breeders, have the enjoyment of not paying any taxes or VAT or declaring their income, get a good reputation just because they are a "breeder" and not a "retailer", yet keep their animals in cramped filthy conditions.

Furthermore, some have absolutely no clue about the animals their breeding. Example Plutino gave earlier was one we had personally - a guy who kept a litter of 20+ boa constrictors in a single 3 foot tank. For feeding, one rat pup was waved, and the first boa to get it won. They were not seperated, the ones that didn't grab it fast didn't get fed, at all. Resulting in some boas that were 3x the size of the others. One of the smaller boas was crushed by either it's mother or it's litter mates, and had to be euthanised because of permanent spinal damage. It had however survived 3 months just wasting away and unable to right itself in the tank with it's litter mates. That's just the worst example from 2007, not the worst example of a breeder by a long shot  Oh.. and what to do about breeders that are truly awful, about starving reptiles, about filth and disgusting enclosures? If it's a private breeder you can do one thing and one thing only - the RSPCA. No other animal rescue has the power to do anything. The council won't vet private breeders. Trading standards is only applicable to businesses. And lets face it, the RSPCA isn't a great place to turn to for exotic welfare.

You can't generalise good / bad labels to groups. You can't say, pet shops are generally bad, and breeders are generally good. They're not. Breeders can be far worse than pet shops - they can be far worse than wholesalers, I've seen private bred animals offered by breeders in worse condition then fresh imported WC. My experience is probably about 50/50 even and I've got a lot of experience with wholesalers, retailers, and private breeders. There are some absolutely amazing top quality breeders out there, but so are there some very good shops 

Just choose each animal carefully. Vet everyone. Assume that breeders, dealers, importers, retailers, they can all suck big time or they can all be perfect but don't make any assumptions before you actually see what you're getting. Don't assume because it's a pet shop it's bad, don't assume because it's a breeder it's good, or vice versa. Go for quality over price, ask a lot of questions, and don't be afraid to say sorry, that's just not good enough, and walk away.

If there is a flaw, it is in the vetting of the whole animal industry really, and I will be the first to say that the whole industry is flawed, but find me a perfect system in anything and I'm pretty sure someone can find a flaw with it somewhere. I can only hope that as more is known about exotics that the major flaws in animal welfare can be improved.


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Ok first let me appologise if my first post was viewed as trolling and thanks for all the responses. The pc purchase was a bad analagy and doesn't reflect my sentiments or the way I deal with the animals in my care. I work in a general pet shop mainly with furries and small birds. My boss has decided to expand into reptiles - only dealing with the simpler and more common species. 
My experience is with a large collection of adult reptiles in an educational environment, therefore retailing reptiles and caring for babies is a new area for me - which I am addressing by talking to our established customer base (we have always sold rep accessories and food), reading books, articles and of course in here. Thus far we have only had a small number of one species at any given time. Everyone who has bought a reptile from us to date has been made aware that we are to some degree on a learning curve and has been directed to sites such as this (even though this course of action shoots us in the foot as everything we sell can be gotten mail order on here) as well as being encouraged to keep in touch and discuss progress/problems with us. 
A fair few breeders have expressed an interest in supplying us with babies and because we only plan to deal with common stuff I don't actually think that any of the objections to wc and wholesalers etc. will apply to our situation. 
My posts here haven't really been intended to bait or antagonise - although I have to admit I was in a bad mood at the time :bash:

I am basically trying to grasp an understanding of the industry, how it works and what the expectations are of reptile people - so that we can meet them. I think this thread has thrown up some really good posts.

In an ideal world all animals would be sold directly to the public by the breeder. However people who breed small animals as a hobby don't have much access to the market, being unable to absorb the cost of advertising etc. Pet shops do have that access and also the space to stock all the things that an animal needs. We can and do make sure that all those things are provided, here the needs of profit and welfare can harmonise well. Since a few of our customers are also breeders with who we have established a good working relationship they are on hand and local to assist with any complex problems that may arise - so far so good though!
It only takes a bit of co-operation between those involved to improve animal welfare?


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Ok first let me appologise if my first post was viewed as trolling and thanks for all the responses. The pc purchase was a bad analagy and doesn't reflect my sentiments or the way I deal with the animals in my care. I work in a general pet shop mainly with furries and small birds. My boss has decided to expand into reptiles - only dealing with the simpler and more common species.
> My experience is with a large collection of adult reptiles in an educational environment, therefore retailing reptiles and caring for babies is a new area for me - which I am addressing by talking to our established customer base (we have always sold rep accessories and food), reading books, articles and of course in here. Thus far we have only had a small number of one species at any given time. Everyone who has bought a reptile from us to date has been made aware that we are to some degree on a learning curve and has been directed to sites such as this (even though this course of action shoots us in the foot as everything we sell can be gotten mail order on here) as well as being encouraged to keep in touch and discuss progress/problems with us.
> A fair few breeders have expressed an interest in supplying us with babies and because we only plan to deal with common stuff I don't actually think that any of the objections to wc and wholesalers etc. will apply to our situation.
> My posts here haven't really been intended to bait or antagonise - although I have to admit I was in a bad mood at the time :bash:
> ...


Now why couldn't you have adopted this much more humble attitude in the first place?? You came on here and basically slagged off breeders and said how inferior they are to licenced and qualified pet shops, and now you've openly admitted that its actually you and your shop that are inexperienced when it comes to dealing with reptiles. What is your area of specialism that you alluded to in an earlier post then? The one where you'd forgotten more than most people would ever know! Oh don't tell me, we're back on to the Norway Rat, aren't we?

With regards to your notion that breeders don't have much access to the market, we live in the age of the World Wide Web, breeders do not need to have a bricks-and-mortar shop in order to do business. You need nothing more than access to the (free!) internet classifieds on the net and if you're really serious then a decent and well maintained website. 

Like you say, in an ideal world animals would be sold directly to the public by the breeder. No point in striving for anything less than ideal is there!


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

> Now why couldn't you have adopted this much more humble attitude in the first place?? You came on here and basically slagged off breeders and said how inferior they are to licenced and qualified pet shops, and now you've openly admitted that its actually you and your shop that are inexperienced when it comes to dealing with reptiles. What is your area of specialism that you alluded to in an earlier post then? The one where you'd forgotten more than most people would ever know! Oh don't tell me, we're back on to the Norway Rat, aren't we?




I’ve already apologised for my stroppy attitude, it stemmed from a real sense of shame when I hear about bad pet shops. I also struggle with the whole reptile keeping concept; I find it hard to justify the keeping of non domestic animals at all so my personal views and my professional views get a little clouded sometimes. 

When I did my HND I got a distinction in the care of non-mammalian species and I worked for 3 years with an extensive reptile collection so I’m not massively ignorant and I am addressing those areas of weakness. 
I could probably get by without doing all this research but getting by isn’t the way I do things. 
My specialist subject is cynology (how ever irrelevant to this discussion that might be). 



> With regards to your notion that breeders don't have much access to the market, we live in the age of the World Wide Web, breeders do not need to have a bricks-and-mortar shop in order to do business. You need nothing more than access to the (free!) internet classifieds on the net and if you're really serious then a decent and well maintained website.



Sadly, the whole world doesn’t have access to the internet; there are still a fair few technophobes left. The breeder might well have access to the net but many consumers don’t. First time reptile owners don’t know how to find a good reptile breeder or what defines a good reptile breeder. 



> Like you say, in an ideal world animals would be sold directly to the public by the breeder. No point in striving for anything less than ideal is there


!

Unfortunately, back in the real world, ideal doesn’t happen. If pet shops didn’t sell pets, then they would be struggling to give good advice with regards to accessories. They wouldn’t have to be licensed and then you might as well go to a supermarket to get your products and be advised by the check out staff. The industry can only be improved from the inside by raising and setting standards.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I’ve already apologised for my stroppy attitude, it stemmed from a real sense of shame when I hear about bad pet shops. I also struggle with the whole reptile keeping concept; I find it hard to justify the keeping of non domestic animals at all so my personal views and my professional views get a little clouded sometimes.
> 
> When I did my HND I got a distinction in the care of non-mammalian species and I worked for 3 years with an extensive reptile collection so I’m not massively ignorant and I am addressing those areas of weakness.
> I could probably get by without doing all this research but getting by isn’t the way I do things.
> My specialist subject is cynology (how ever irrelevant to this discussion that might be).


I can accept an apology based upon the fact that you were in a bad mood at the time of posting. What I'm having trouble with is getting my head around why being in a bad mood equated to you making a misleading and deceptive post. If your bad mood stemmed from a sense of shame that you feel about bad reptile shops, why not apologise to us, the consumer, as a pet shop employee on behalf of the pet shop industry? How does coming on here and posting derogatory remarks about breeders make up for bad pet shops, or is it just easier to try and tar everyone with the same dirty brush so that it doesn't make those shops (your industry!) look so bad? This is not the way to build a good reputation on this forum or in the real world community IMO.

I really shocked by your admission that you find it hard to justify the keeping of non domestic animals (reptiles) at all. One of the key issues that I mentioned earlier that I feel differentiates most shops from most breeders is that the breeders do what they do primarily out of a passion for the hobby, shops on the other hand seem more concerned with the £'s and their profit margins. That fact that you'll be selling and offering husbandry advice on reptiles despite the fact that you don't believe they should be kept as pets clearly shows that your motivation (and that of your shop) is most definitely financial. 



> Sadly, the whole world doesn’t have access to the internet; there are still a fair few technophobes left. The breeder might well have access to the net but many consumers don’t. First time reptile owners don’t know how to find a good reptile breeder or what defines a good reptile breeder.


Its estimated that there are over 38 million regular internet users in the UK (about 60% of the population) and for those technophobes there are books available in most libraries these days. There are very few people left in the UK that physically can not get access to the internet in either their own homes, via the local library or internet cafe, or at their place of work. My guess is that laziness lies at the root of most peoples claims that they can't get access to the WWW. First time reptile owners use internet forums to find out about reptiles (nobody bloody reads books these days!)...you only need to look on this forum to see how often the same "newbie" questions get asked over and over again. I'd also like to know how it is that these technophobe novices manage to find a good reptile shop without access to the internet? How does finding a good shop differ from finding a good breeder, why can one be done without the net, but not the other? 

I agree that the whole world doesn't have access to the WWW, but since when were we talking about international sales with regards to either shops or breeders?



> Unfortunately, back in the real world, ideal doesn’t happen. If pet shops didn’t sell pets, then they would be struggling to give good advice with regards to accessories. They wouldn’t have to be licensed and then you might as well go to a supermarket to get your products and be advised by the check out staff. The industry can only be improved from the inside by raising and setting standards.


Well, ideal may not be the reality at the moment, but like I said, *we should be striving for the ideal!* Never mind about pet shops struggling to sell accessories if they don't sell pets. They wouldn't even exist if they stopped selling animals...why would I want to pay pet shop prices for acessories when I can get them on line for a cheaper price (even factoring in P&P). Certainly not because the pet shop worker had a HND that somehow is supposed to make them experts on heatmats and ceramic bulbs! :lol2:

cheers 

Stuart 

BSc, MA (makes me sound really clever but unfortunately neither are reptile related).


----------



## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

Evie said:


> Maybe I’m being oversensitive here but pet shops seem to take a lot of criticism here: staff, prices, knowledge and husbandry etc.
> It all seems very contrary when so many members seem to want careers in the animal care industry but are reluctant to because it pays peanuts, it pays peanuts because people want everything cheap.
> Of course it’s cheaper to buy your choice of pet from the breeder but it’s also cheaper to buy DVDs off a bloke in a pub. *Breeders of small animals/reptiles and birds are unlicensed, unlegislated, uninspected* and don’t have to have any qualifications other than the ability to add 1 + 1 and come up with loads of babies to sell.
> Pet shops have huge overheads, staff to pay and standards to achieve – and also fall victim to uneducated inspectors.
> ...


Someone hand me a pitchfork too...:whip:

Some great points made by *essexchondro*...

Oh by the way, could I make a couple of points?!

As a UK keeper/breeder of Mediterranean tortoises, I have to be registered with defra, as do my adult colony of breeding tortoises, each hatchling born is also accounted for by defra (through applying for article 10's)...Furthermore, defra could inspect at any given time...

Sing it with me...He's a knock off nigel...knock off niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigellllllllllllllllllll :lol2:...T.T.8)




PS. I'm just a doddery old tort keeper...what do I know!


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

We don't keep torts.



> I can accept an apology based upon the fact that you were in a bad mood at the time of posting. What I'm having trouble with is getting my head around why being in a bad mood equated to you making a misleading and deceptive post. If your bad mood stemmed from a sense of shame that you feel about bad reptile shops, why not apologise to us, the consumer, as a pet shop employee on behalf of the pet shop industry? How does coming on here and posting derogatory remarks about breeders make up for bad pet shops, or is it just easier to try and tar everyone with the same dirty brush so that it doesn't make those shops (your industry!) look so bad? This is not the way to build a good reputation on this forum or in the real world community IMO.


At which point did I post derogatory remarks about breeders? I stated the fact - unlicensed, uninspected simple fact. 
my original post did not specify any particular species - breeders breed other things than reps - 1 rabbit + 1 rabbit = lots of rabbits. It really is that easy, for dogs, cats, rodents etc as well. You having tunnel vision assumed I was just talking about reps right? 
Lutino budgies - predisposition for blindness, dwarf lop rabbits - predisposition for malocclusion, blue merle dogs - lethal gene, fantail fish - predisposition for swim bladder problems. That's why I am dubious about breeding for specific traits. 



> I really shocked by your admission that you find it hard to justify the keeping of non domestic animals (reptiles) at all. One of the key issues that I mentioned earlier that I feel differentiates most shops from most breeders is that the breeders do what they do primarily out of a passion for the hobby, shops on the other hand seem more concerned with the £'s and their profit margins. That fact that you'll be selling and offering husbandry advice on reptiles despite the fact that you don't believe they should be kept as pets clearly shows that your motivation (and that of your shop) is most definitely financial.


Yes I go to work to earn a living - don't you? I gave up a much higher paid job to do the job I do now. Why? Because I think it's better that the job is done by people who question everything, examine the morality and ethics of what happens. Like I've said I do the best job I can and don't think that I should apologise for the actions of others who don't. I would rather be in a position to understand the industry from every angle, and guess what, I like my job. Just because I don't all together approve of keeping non domestics doesn't mean I can't appreciate them. A bit like when you have another drink when you really shouldn't - naughty but nice.



> Its estimated that there are over 38 million regular internet users in the UK (about 60% of the population) and for those technophobes there are books available in most libraries these days. There are very few people left in the UK that physically can not get access to the internet in either their own homes, via the local library or internet cafe, or at their place of work. My guess is that laziness lies at the root of most peoples claims that they can't get access to the WWW. First time reptile owners use internet forums to find out about reptiles (nobody bloody reads books these days!)...you only need to look on this forum to see how often the same "newbie" questions get asked over and over again. I'd also like to know how it is that these technophobe novices manage to find a good reptile shop without access to the internet? How does finding a good shop differ from finding a good breeder, why can one be done without the net, but not the other?


Because people go to their local pet shops first because they like to talk to a real person - maybe they shouldn't but they do and maybe that will change and pet shops will die off but at the moment they are there and people use them. Pet shops are open, people can wander in and see how the animals are kept without an appointment. pet shops are wide open to judgement.



> Well, ideal may not be the reality at the moment, but like I said, *we should be striving for the ideal!* Never mind about pet shops struggling to sell accessories if they don't sell pets. They wouldn't even exist if they stopped selling animals...why would I want to pay pet shop prices for acessories when I can get them on line for a cheaper price (even factoring in P&P). Certainly not because the pet shop worker had a HND that somehow is supposed to make them experts on heatmats and
> ceramic bulbs!


No-one is saying you should pay pet shop prices, you have the good fortune to have the knowledge to choose for yourself and buy online. Good for you - sincerely.



> cheers
> 
> Stuart
> 
> BSc, MA (makes me sound really clever but unfortunately neither are reptile related)


No having a HND doesn't make me an expert in ceramic bulbs or heatmats - using them, buying them, reading reviews does help though. 
I didn't realise that we were having a who's got the most letters after their name contest - forgive me if I don't join in. I only mentioned that qual' since I seemed to have given the impression that I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I used to teach degree students so I know its worth; did you get that online too ;p


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> At which point did I post derogatory remarks about breeders?


You implied they were comparable to pirate DVD sellers and suggested their only "qualification" was an ability to add 1 and 1 together to produce a load of babies. If that is not derogatory I don't know what is!



> my original post did not specify any particular species - breeders breed other things than reps - 1 rabbit + 1 rabbit = lots of rabbits. It really is that easy, for dogs, cats, rodents etc as well. You having tunnel vision assumed I was just talking about reps right?


In your original post you stated you were talking about breeders of small animals/reptiles and birds. Obviously I chose to focus more on the reptile aspect because this is a reptile forum!



> Yes I go to work to earn a living - don't you? I gave up a much higher paid job to do the job I do now. Why? Because I think it's better that the job is done by people who question everything, examine the morality and ethics of what happens. Like I've said I do the best job I can and don't think that I should apologise for the actions of others who don't. I would rather be in a position to understand the industry from every angle, and guess what, I like my job. Just because I don't all together approve of keeping non domestics doesn't mean I can't appreciate them. A bit like when you have another drink when you really shouldn't - naughty but nice.


Yes I work for a living, but not with reptiles. Reptiles are a *passion* for me, not a "job" or a business that prioritises profit margins. If you dont think you should have to apologise for the actions of others why did you state that you made your post out of a sense of "shame" about bad shops? If you don't agree with keeping reptiles you have no passion for them. You may have cold hard text-book facts but without passion and a "need" to immerse yourself in the hobby outside of the 9-5 job hours then you'll never really be in a position to offer valuable advice through your own experiences. 



> Because people go to their local pet shops first because they like to talk to a real person - maybe they shouldn't but they do and maybe that will change and pet shops will die off but at the moment they are there and people use them. Pet shops are open, people can wander in and see how the animals are kept without an appointment. pet shops are wide open to judgement.


The question was how do you find a *good* pet shop, not just any old pet shop out of the local phone directory. The only way to tell the good from the bad is from your own experiences or the experiences of others. Novices can't make that judgement call just by walking through the door and talking to a real person. Any old fool can sound like an expert to a novice just because of the fact that they stand on the other side of the counter.



> No-one is saying you should pay pet shop prices, you have the good fortune to have the knowledge to choose for yourself and buy online. Good for you - sincerely.


Thankfully yes I do. Its the novices that don't that I feel sorry for...the ones that don't know any better.



> No having a HND doesn't make me an expert in ceramic bulbs or heatmats - using them, buying them, reading reviews does help though.
> I didn't realise that we were having a who's got the most letters after their name contest - forgive me if I don't join in. I only mentioned that qual' since I seemed to have given the impression that I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I used to teach degree students so I know its worth; did you get that online too ;p


So if it isn't really about the qualification why did you bring up the issue of qualifications in your first post? If experience is more important why didn't you frame your argument in terms of experience/inexperience instead of qualified/unqualified? It is clear to me that you tried to use the issue of your qualification as indicative of your superiority over the unqualified breeder! Any contest that is going on here about qualifications was started by you, not me. I've said throughout that qualifications are largely irrelevant to what we're talking about. My degrees are from the University of Leicester and the University of Essex, but like I said they are totally irrelevant to this whole discussion, much like your HND and your specialism in canine evolution.

Very petty comment about getting my degrees on line, by the way. Says a lot about the strength of your argument when you resort to statements like that. I never said anything intended to be derogatory about your HND, I just said that it wasn't really relevant to the issue at hand. Of course, the irony of it all is that the Open University offer some very well respected (on line) degree courses these days.


----------



## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

just curious, do you really believe that in an ideal world for the herp community, there would be no reptile shops? Where do you envision most people get their induction into the reptile world? Do you really believe that online stores are a better source of information and product reliability than actually seeing what you're buying first? Do you believe that most successful decent sized companies are wasting their money by spending money ensuring people get 'face time' with their customers?

To keep people interested in reptiles yes, there are school visits, zoos, that sort of thing, but when someone comes home from a birthday party where they had a reptile specialist come in, should they then be expected to traipse over to the local library and search diligently for an online repository of information on local breeders and which ones are 'good'? I'm just trying to see where you're coming from. Did visit a shop where someone hurt your feelings?

I think in an ideal world, shops would be better, not non-existent. It's like saying in an ideal world, there should be no need for grocery stores as everyone should walk down to their local organic farm to buy their week's veg/etc. The fact, as I see it, is, that this 'hobby' needs reptile shops for a variety of reasons, and as such, they should be regulated and held to a high standard, but not portrayed as evil beings that are only in it for the money.
My OH started a reptile shop because she believed she could do it better than what she'd seen, for the animals' sake and public who look to purchase impulsively or otherwise without the necessary information. I can't imagine that she's the only person to hold these feelings. With so many people passionate about reptiles, with large collections, I can't see the leap to starting a pet shop being that uncommon. It so, that would mean that only those who ARE in it just for the money would dominate the market. The market isn't going to go away just because some people wish it to. As reptiles become more mainstream, it's going to keep growing, if anything. Of shops I've visited, the good do outweigh the bad, though yes, there shouldn't be any bad, and no, I probably haven't visited as many as you.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> just curious, do you really believe that in an ideal world for the herp community, there would be no reptile shops?


Not necessarily. Like I said earlier, I have no innate hatred of pet shops. My vision of the ideal world in this context is one where all animals being sold are of good quality and are being sold by people who really know what they are talking about because they have genuine depth of knowledge when it comes to the species in question. Breeders tend to have more specialist knowledge because they don't work with as many species as your average pet shop will stock. My experience of pet shops is that on the whole the animals are of lower quality than those available directly from breeders and that pet shop staff have less depth of knowledge on any one species because by their very nature they are generalists rather than specialists. My point is simply that a consumer is better off dealing with a specialist rather than a generalist. If pet shops can come up with a way of solving this dilemma then I welcome their existence. Infact, earlier in this thread I specifically mentioned one pet shop that I believe works towards solving this dilemma. The trade off, however, is that it doesn't stock a vast diversity of different species to sell. In short, my ideal vision of the future of our hobby is a growing network of (specialist) breeders rather than the "Jack of all Trades" pet shop approach.



> Where do you envision most people get their induction into the reptile world?


Primarily through reading books and the internet. But also as the hobby grows in popularity it will no longer be unusual to know someone who owns a snake or a lizard etc. There are also TV programmes (Life in Cold Blood being the best current example) and Zoos, for example. Its also worth noting that all of the more formal channels of learning available to pet shop employees are also there for everyone else too!



> Do you really believe that online stores are a better source of information and product reliability than actually seeing what you're buying first?


Well on line product information is often a lot better and a lot more detailed than that given by the pet shop. What's more, pet shops only stock a very limited range of the products actually available in the market place. The advice you get from shops is always going to point you in the direction of a product that the shop can actually sell you. Its a bit like going to Barclays bank and asking them what the best savings account is. No prizes for guessing that they'll say its a Barclays product!

On line shops do not have the same over heads as real bricks-and-mortar shops and because an on line shop doesn't physically have to have a product on its own premises in order to advertise it for sale they can offer a much wider range of products which equates to more choice for the consumer. Its also worth noting that seeing a product in person is only of real value if you know exactly what you're looking for. Personally I'd rather have access to info on all products available on the market rather than a very limited (pet shop) range that may not include the most appropriate product for my needs.



> Do you believe that most successful decent sized companies are wasting their money by spending money ensuring people get 'face time' with their customers?


The transition towards on line advertising and on line retail is well underway in all areas of business. If people are happy to run their personal finances and banking on line then I would hazard a guess that buying reptile accessories over the net (or communicating with breeders) is not a major sticking point with most people . It also worth mentioning that "face time" is only of real value to the consumer if the info they get from it is of good quality. If its not then "face time" is nothing more than a sales ploy by the company to make a customer feel valued in order to retain their business. I think you'll find that its this that lies at the heart of most companies willingness to spend money on face to face contact with clients. I believe its known as the "wine and dine" technique. In short, no they aren't wasting money on "face time", but they aren't spending it for the benefit of the customer either!



> To keep people interested in reptiles yes, there are school visits, zoos, that sort of thing, but when someone comes home from a birthday party where they had a reptile specialist come in, should they then be expected to traipse over to the local library and search diligently for an online repository of information on local breeders and which ones are 'good'?


Well the reptile specialist probably has their own website to advertise their business so that would be a good place to start (the web address will be on the business cards that they hand out to all the boys and girls as part of their "goody bag"). In any case, why is going to the library to borrow books such a big issue? Chances are they live closer to their local library than they do to their nearest reptile shop. And who's to say that their nearest shop is any good anyway?! For all they know (which is not a lot at this stage) their local reptile shop could have a notoriously bad reputation. If you're suggesting that people just automatically use their (perhaps not so local) reptile shop as their introduction to the hobby then I think there willl be a lot of novices getting off to a very bad start. Also, how is it that its so hard to find a good breeder yet easier to find a good shop? There isn't a directory of good shops either you know (well there are on line, but a but of "traipsing" on the net is far to much effort for people to exert, isn't it)!



> I'm just trying to see where you're coming from. Did visit a shop where someone hurt your feelings?


Most definitely, several shops infact. Like I say, I have no innate hatred of pet shops and like everyone else my first reptile came from a shop. My general dislike for pet shops is a direct result of my own personal experiences and observations coupled with hearing about the experiences of others. If the majority of my experiences had been good then I would feel differently. If I'd never been sold a WC animal as CB, or been given inadequate advice, or seen animals housed in poor conditions then I wouldn't necessarily have these issues with shops. I'm a bit more experienced these days so I don't make the same mistakes as I used to, but the novices don't have that ability to tell the good from the bad (yet) and its those guys I feel sorry for. Especially if they're being encouraged to just take "pot luck" on their local shop rather than taking a bit of time and effort to research things properly!




> I think in an ideal world, shops would be better, not non-existent. It's like saying in an ideal world, there should be no need for grocery stores as everyone should walk down to their local organic farm to buy their week's veg/etc.


But how are shops going to compete with cheaper acessories available on line, better sources of information, and better quality animals direct from the (ever growing number of) breeders? Like I say, I'm all for better shops and believe that they can be made to work well. I just think that that requires too big a change for most shops to be able to make the transition.



> The fact, as I see it, is, that this 'hobby' needs reptile shops for a variety of reasons, and as such, they should be regulated and held to a high standard, but not portrayed as evil beings that are only in it for the money.


I think I've offered alternatives to the reasons you've highlighted. Shops are already regulated and given standards to maintain. Sadly the fact of the matter is that not all live up to those standards and they ignore the regulations (and often do not suffer as a result). You can't regulate failure to meet regulated standards by introducing yet more regulation! If you're in it for the profit then corners are always going to be cut. With breeders it tends to be more about a passion for the hobby and the thrill of breeding (large professional breeders being the exception, of course) and any money they make from selling babies is a nice bonus, but not the primary purpose of it all. 




> My OH started a reptile shop because she believed she could do it better than what she'd seen, for the animals' sake and public who look to purchase impulsively or otherwise without the necessary information. I can't imagine that she's the only person to hold these feelings. With so many people passionate about reptiles, with large collections, I can't see the leap to starting a pet shop being that uncommon.


The larger hobbyists opening up their own shops to sell their own CB offspring would be a very positive trend in the pet shop industry IMO. But the sacrifice such shops would make is that they would have a relatively small amount of stock to sell compared to the traditional shop which works on the principle of cramming in as much stock with as much variety as possible. Show me a shop that is 'nothing more' than an outlet for a breeders own produce (or even a joint venture between breeders) and I'll support it 100%, even though its likely their prices would increase to cover the overheads of having a shop.



> It so, that would mean that only those who ARE in it just for the money would dominate the market. The market isn't going to go away just because some people wish it to.


I certainly don't think the reptile market will go away. I just think that as private breeders become more common, and on line retail grows in popularity, that the traditional bricks-and-mortar shop (and the business model upon which it is built) will find it harder and harder to operate. Globalisation and the WWW are revolutionising the way we all live our lives. To think that it will somehow skip our hobby/industry is naïve.



> As reptiles become more mainstream, it's going to keep growing, if anything. Of shops I've visited, the good do outweigh the bad, though yes, there shouldn't be any bad, and no, I probably haven't visited as many as you.


Yes the hobby will grow, but, for the reasons I've discussed, the pet shop industry in its current format will not (IMO). 


cheers

Stuart


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

There have been some brilliant posts on this thread.

It seems to me though that we have a shopkeeper/worker ( Sorry, not really clear which ) saying that shops are better places to buy your animals from even if they cost a bit more because you get after sales service and have in depth knowledge of all the animals they sell.

Then you have breeders stating that they have far more knowledge of the animals they breed than shops do.

Surely both are true !!!

It seems to me that there are a lot of people on both sides in this hobby that are scared to say the words "I don't know !". As a case in point, last year I ordered a snake through a shop, I am not going to say who because it does not matter, but the fact is that the shop owner did not know much about the species. So, I went to collect it and talked with them for about 30-40 minutes about the species. The point being that the owner was quite happy to say "You know more about this species than I do... so please tell me about it". Surely this is the way it should be shouldn't it ?

There should not be any "We are better than breeders" from shops and there should not be any "We are better than shops" from breeders because neither is true. Personally, I know a few shop managers and owners and good ones at that... and I know a few breeders and good ones at that. Surely the thing is to marry the two together.

At the end of the day, breeders should be supplying shops with their CB animals for a decent price and holding a few back for shows and acquaintance hobbyiests to get interest in what they breed. Surely that way everyone wins... including the hobby.


----------



## Plutino (Aug 5, 2007)

ratboy said:


> It seems to me that there are a lot of people on both sides in this hobby that are scared to say the words "I don't know !". As a case in point, last year I ordered a snake through a shop, I am not going to say who because it does not matter, but the fact is that the shop owner did not know much about the species. So, I went to collect it and talked with them for about 30-40 minutes about the species. The point being that the owner was quite happy to say "You know more about this species than I do... so please tell me about it". Surely this is the way it should be shouldn't it ?
> 
> There should not be any "We are better than breeders" from shops and there should not be any "We are better than shops" from breeders because neither is true. Personally, I know a few shop managers and owners and good ones at that... and I know a few breeders and good ones at that. Surely the thing is to marry the two together.
> 
> At the end of the day, breeders should be supplying shops with their CB animals for a decent price and holding a few back for shows and acquaintance hobbyiests to get interest in what they breed. Surely that way everyone wins... including the hobby.


I fully agree


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> There have been some brilliant posts on this thread.
> 
> It seems to me though that we have a shopkeeper/worker ( Sorry, not really clear which ) saying that shops are better places to buy your animals from even if they cost a bit more because you get after sales service and have in depth knowledge of all the animals they sell.
> 
> ...


Are shop keepers claiming that they have in-depth knowledge equal to that of the breeder?? I've not got that impression from reading this thread. Indeed the thread starter even made a specific point of mentioning how broad their knowledge base was;



> As a pet shop employee I have to have knowledge of the husbandry, behaviour and health of rodents, lagamorphs, cats, dogs, reptiles, amphibians, birds and fish as well as knowledge of all the accessories that are available and how they should be used.




It seems to me that the pet shop employees pride themselves on the breadth of their knowledge, not the depth of it in relation to any one particular species. 



> It seems to me that there are a lot of people on both sides in this hobby that are scared to say the words "I don't know !". As a case in point, last year I ordered a snake through a shop, I am not going to say who because it does not matter, but the fact is that the shop owner did not know much about the species. So, I went to collect it and talked with them for about 30-40 minutes about the species. The point being that the owner was quite happy to say "You know more about this species than I do... so please tell me about it". Surely this is the way it should be shouldn't it ?


Fair play to the guy for being honest. But that example doesn't apply both ways, does it! Yes it is possible for a pet shop owner/worker to not know much (or anything) about a particular species that they have for sale because new stock arrives all the time, but it is not possible for a breeder to know nothing about a species that they keep by definition of the fact that they keep the species and have been breeding it! You only get the scenario of buying off of a person that doesn't know about the species being sold when that person is a dealer (pet shop). You don't get that happen when you speak to a breeder because they breed the species in question and therefore know about it. This particular person (pet shop) you're talking about sounds like an honest guy, but not knowing about a species that they are selling is hardly a positive point is it, whatever way you look at it.

cheers

Stuart


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> This particular person (pet shop) you're talking about sounds like an honest guy, but not knowing about a species that they are selling is hardly a positive point is it, whatever way you look at it.


As I said, I ordered the snake, it was not the case of the shop selling an animal they knew nothing about to someone that knew nothing about them either. The snake was collected on the day it arrived.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Are shop keepers claiming that they have in-depth knowledge equal to that of the breeder?? I've not got that impression from reading this thread.


I have not said that  I have said they claim to have an in-depth knowledge of the animals they sell. I have not said that they claim it to be as deep a knowledge as that of a breeder for individual species.


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

If there was a rule that shops could only sell animals that they bred themselves (which presumabley would be their area(s) of expertise), I'd still be able to keep going a very good business just on the animals I breed myself, and have bred for 10 years.

Shop keepers and breeders do not have to be mutually exclusive, what about all the shops that are owned by breeders? No. we don't usually breed every single species available and I claim in no way to be an expert in every species I sell, but it's just something to think about... I would quite happily compete for knowledge on the reptiles that I breed with any private individual, and I think, although I don't know everything (who does?) I could certainly be considered as knowledge as any of the top breeders, and certainly a lot more knowledge than a lot of the small/new breeders.

I guess opinion differs because as a shop, I see horrific things and horrific animals from "breeders".. whereas a good breeder will see bad things from a shop.


----------



## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

Well said Steve.


I would like to refute the statement that pet shop employees do not have in depth knowledge of any animal, you will find that many have their own particular favourites that they keep and breed at home. For example speaking for the shop I have worked in we have staff with varying in depth interests such as me keeping, breeding and studying all about the boiga species, plus crested geckos, I also have specific interests in the Uroplatus species, Gonocephalus species and the subject of UV lighting. At the same time we have staff with more in depth knowledge and experience regarding arachnids, venomous snakes, monitors, royal pythons, carpet pythons, corn snakes, tortoises, leopard geckos etc etc.
I think you will find most reptile shops have staff that keep and breed reptiles themselves, so it isnt a case of breeders against shop staff at all, they are often one in the same.

No one person can know about every species, also idea on care are changing all the time as we learn more. I think we should all be working together not against each other.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> As I said, I ordered the snake, it was not the case of the shop selling an animal they knew nothing about to someone that knew nothing about them either. The snake was collected on the day it arrived.


Agreed. In this particular instance there was no harm done. However, I still believe that the general point that I was making stands. If pet shops operate in such a way that from time to time they sell animals about which they don't know too much (or anything) it does leave open the possibility of having a situation where "the blind are leading the blind", so to speak, if they buyer doesn't know too much either.



> I have not said that  I have said they claim to have an in-depth knowledge of the animals they sell. I have not said that they claim it to be as deep a knowledge as that of a breeder for individual species.


But do they even claim that? 

Surely a pet shop worker claiming to have in depth knowledge on all the animals they sell is therefore claiming to have the same depth of knowledge as the breeder has on the smaller number of species they breed? In both cases it is in depth knowledge! If the pet shop stocks 100 different species are you suggesting that the pet shop worker has an equal depth of knowledge as the breeder does in the 5 species on that list that the breeder specialises in? I find that unlikely.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> If there was a rule that shops could only sell animals that they bred themselves (which presumabley would be their area(s) of expertise), I'd still be able to keep going a very good business just on the animals I breed myself, and have bred for 10 years.
> 
> Shop keepers and breeders do not have to be mutually exclusive, what about all the shops that are owned by breeders? No. we don't usually breed every single species available and I claim in no way to be an expert in every species I sell, but it's just something to think about... I would quite happily compete for knowledge on the reptiles that I breed with any private individual, and I think, although I don't know everything (who does?) I could certainly be considered as knowledge as any of the top breeders, and certainly a lot more knowledge than a lot of the small/new breeders.
> 
> I guess opinion differs because as a shop, I see horrific things and horrific animals from "breeders".. whereas a good breeder will see bad things from a shop.


I agree. Like I said in an earlier post, a trend towards breeders opening up shops to sell their own CB babies would be a very positive development in the pet shop industry and would get my support 100%. It would simultaneously remove the two biggest issues I have with pet shops in general. 1) It would remove the selling of lower quality (WC and CF) animals by shops, and 2) it would ensure that the buyer was speaking to someone with a good depth of knowledge on the particular animal for sale because they would have bred the animal themselves rather than bought it in for re-sale.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Well said Steve.
> 
> 
> I would like to refute the statement that pet shop employees do not have in depth knowledge of any animal, you will find that many have their own particular favourites that they keep and breed at home. For example speaking for the shop I have worked in we have staff with varying in depth interests such as me keeping, breeding and studying all about the boiga species, plus crested geckos, I also have specific interests in the Uroplatus species, Gonocephalus species and the subject of UV lighting. At the same time we have staff with more in depth knowledge and experience regarding arachnids, venomous snakes, monitors, royal pythons, carpet pythons, corn snakes, tortoises, leopard geckos etc etc.
> ...


I would also refute that statement. I have no doubt that pet shop workers have their own areas of interest and specialisms. However, they can't possibly have the same level of in depth knowledge in all the species that they sell as a breeder has on the much smaller number of species they keep and breed. There is just too much to know! A pet shop might have 100 different species for sale whereas most breeders will only concentrate on a relatively small number of species (5 or 6 maybe?). Expecting one pet shop worker to have specialist in depth knowledge on 100 species is like asking them to have the combined knowledge of 20 breeders! Of course, the pet shop could always employ 20 members of staff each with their own 5 or 6 specialist species, but somehow I doubt that will happen. :whistling2:


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Surely a pet shop worker claiming to have in depth knowledge on all the animals they sell is therefore claiming to have the same depth of knowledge as the breeder has on the smaller number of species they breed? In both cases it is in depth knowledge! If the pet shop stocks 100 different species are you suggesting that the pet shop worker has an equal depth of knowledge as the breeder does in the 5 species on that list that the breeder specialises in? I find that unlikely.


I think you are missing my point. There are different depths of knowledge just as there are different depths of everything else. You seem to be saying that someone either knows nothing or knows everything. It is possible to have different depths of knowledge in different subjects, or in this case species. They are all 'in depth' to one level or another.


----------



## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't think that pet shops are better than breeders at all - I think we have a different target audience. The comparisons I made were simply to illustrate that a shop gives more consumer protection than a private breeder. A shop is governed by the Sale of Goods Act as well as the licensing laws. If an unwary novice gets ripped off by a shop, they have a much stonger legal case than if they were stung by a (bad) breeder, where it would be a case of Caveat Emptor. Unless the hobbyist was declaring their income and paying tax on their earnings, in which case I guess the Sale of Goods Act would apply to them too, and in all honesty how many do?

A knowledgable person is in a better postion to judge what is what therefore they don't need the legislation and can acquire animals in a different way. Novices don't know which questions to ask and what to look for when it comes to reptiles - people even struggle to find a kitten or a puppy - even though there are well publicised organisations that they can go to, so when it comes to reptiles, amphibs or inverts they are completely stumped a lot of the time.

Many pet shops don't have a massive range of species. We only have around 10 different types of animal, unless you count each type of fish and we have an aquatics expert. There are 5 members of staff all with a special area of interest - it's a pool of knowledge.

The problem isn't whether you're a pet shop a breeder or a dealer. It's whether or not you are an honest and compassionate human being.

There are basic rules of animal husbandry and if you have a good grounding in a few diverse species, it's not rocket science to look into the finer details of a new species. You only need to know which questions to ask and who to ask. I have had 30 years experience working with all kinds of animals, in a variety of different environments, so the grounding is definitely there.

Passion for what I do? I get up in the morning and see to my own animals, then I go to work and look after animals, talk to animal people about animals. When I come home I see to my lot. My social life revolves around animals, my friends are all animal people and then I sit here and talk about animals some more. Dedication? Passion? Damn right it is!


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Evie said:


> Passion for what I do? I get up in the morning and see to my own animals, then I go to work and look after animals, talk to animal people about animals. When I come home I see to my lot. My social life revolves around animals, my friends are all animal people and then I sit here and talk about animals some more. Dedication? Passion? Damn right it is!


For me it's a hobby.... and after that paragraph, I am glad


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Evie said:


> Unless the hobbyist was declaring their income and paying tax on their earnings, in which case I guess the Sale of Goods Act would apply to them too, and in all honesty how many do?


Many... we are not all on the fiddle ya know


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Something that is for sure reading this thread... there are both shops and breeders who care very much about what they do.

Both have a firm spot in the industry, both have equally important roles to play.

Which ever way you look at it, shops are the first port of call for most first timers and many repeat customers. Its for this reason its even more important regarding welfare that the shop (owner or staff) give the right basic info. 

Ths thread started by saying that shops shouldnt get slated and private breeders were dodgy. 

Through civil discussion, it seems some kind of mutual has been reached, an excellent result as our industry needs all the true honest people it can get.

Good shops dont get slated, neither do good breeders. Its the 'bad' ones that need help. Maybe we are to fast to point the finger, maybe a quite chat would work much better.

Whats for sure is there are still places, shops and private, that dish out wrong advice and go for the sale...

... although, i am pleased to say, the numbers seem to be falling.

United we stand comes to mind.


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I think you are missing my point. There are different depths of knowledge just as there are different depths of everything else. You seem to be saying that someone either knows nothing or knows everything. It is possible to have different depths of knowledge in different subjects, or in this case species. They are all 'in depth' to one level or another.


I don't believe I am missing the point, because thats the very point I've been making!

Because pet shops deal in a much greater number (and variety) of animals, their in depth knowledge can't be expected to be as in depth as that of the breeder who only works with a much smaller number of species. In this thread I have talked about it in terms of the pet shops have more of a *general knowledge* (broader knowledge covering many species but not as deep in any one species) whereas the breeder tends to have the opposite, *specialist in depth knowledge* but in a smaller number of species. Put simply, pet shops are generalists and breeders are specialists. Of course, we could just say that the in depth knowledge of the pet shop isn't as in depth as the in depth knowledge of the breeder, but thats a bit of a tongue twister! :lol2:


----------



## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Passion for what I do? I get up in the morning and see to my own animals, then I go to work and look after animals, talk to animal people about animals. When I come home I see to my lot. My social life revolves around animals, my friends are all animal people and then I sit here and talk about animals some more. Dedication? Passion? Damn right it is!


To clarify, my earlier comments about your passion were made specifically in relation to reptiles after your admission that you didn't really agree with them being kept as pets.


----------

