# Nerd On the Warpath ?



## Malc

I've not watched Liam Sinclair's recent video posted on Youtube two weeks ago, but he seems to have gone after Kevin at NERD, by possibly stirring things up interviewing a Canadian vet (who has apparently been doing more harm than good for the reptile keeping hobby), in the video they call out Kevin for the practices that he performs to save reptiles from being put down. Naturally this has angered Kevin and their response video has been posted today.






Maybe Liam thought "interviewing" someone who has had pass history with Kevin would be a good topic, but its backfired on him (reading the comments in NERDs video he certainly has been hung drawn and quartered by the community), or maybe he has a point and the claims by Dr. Adrian Walton have some substance. Dr. Adrian Walton in some ways personally reminds me of the issues we have here in the UK with Clifford Warwick, who's tactics to get shows stopped and campaigning to get the keeping of all pets banned don't help the hobby, despite him previously being a reptile importer and retailer back in the 90's, assuming the claims stated in NERDs video are true. If they are then has Liam damaged his reputation further by partnering with Dr. Adrian Walton to do the video. I'll let you decide

Personally I'm not taking any stance. Liam has his followers and on the whole has done a lot to educate and inform people, and from previous discussions here on RFUK does a fair bit support the hobby. I wasn't personally aware of Liam's video (which is strange as he normally post links to them here when released and I've searched his RFUK posts and can't see anything) and this post isn't meant to be detrimental to him on a personal level. I make this post to in order to generate discussion, both on whether you feel the practices Kevin at NERD does is wrong, even though he has a high degree of success. And given the tight knit community over the pond between commercial breeders, does this public mud slinging damaged the hobby in any way?

Ladies and gentlemen, lets have a clean and grown up discussion please.


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## Malc

Just to start the ball rolling, This time last year my boa had an RI. He was seen by a vet and she confirmed that the anti-biotic that I had researched was what she would be prescribing. This needed a set dose to be inter muscular injected every 72 hours. I was given the option to bring the snake in every time, or to do it myself. I had never injected a snake before, so I was told where to inject (Covid restrictions meant I couldn't be shown as I was not permitted to enter the building) and I came home with four pre filled syringes to place in the freezer. 

I administered the medication as instructed. This whilst not invasive like surgery, was none the less technically a medical procedure and I have no formal training whatsoever. Whilst I was confident in doing the injections, If I didn't do it right I may have caused the snake a lot of damage. Is this any different to what's being questioned in that video ?


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## ian14

It's very different.
Its quite common for vets to show how to administer drugs.
That's far and away different from carrying out home surgical procedures.


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## spigotbush

administering muscular injections is a completely different ball game than open surgery. i would be prepared to do an injection provided i had been shown how, i wouldnt be opening animals up at home.
this shouldnt be an argument at all, it is never a good idea to perform home surgery. i doubt people who are trained for it would do it at home. considering it as an option leads to the same issues as people force feeding because their snake missed a feed but with significantly worse consequences. vets usually have an out of hours number, if you think your animal needs emergency surgery then use it, its expensive but its there.

as for liam and kevin, i think they are destined to knock heads forever. does a public argument damage the hobby? i dont think so. we seem to go for the stoic approach and stay away from public arguments. i feel like that simply leads to the general public only ever seeing the negatives and if nobody contests it then they assume everyone feels the same. i dont blame people for wanting to stay out of things like that though, it often comes with feral and abusive fanbases that are extremely unpleasant to deal with.

why is that vet so bad? i looked him up and i found some references about him being against unlicensed imports and impulse buying. also him pushing for a ban on online animal sales but nothing that sounded like he was a complete anti.


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## Swindinian

Suggest you watch R&R video then watch Nerd video.

Liam was deliberately not naming names.

Thus far Nerd have focussed on discrediting the vets reputation.

If Nerd deem their documented actions as legitimate and legal, then unsure how this will pan out.

The fanbase reaction has started………


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## Swindinian

Malc said:


> I've not watched Liam Sinclair's recent video posted on Youtube two weeks ago, but he seems to have gone after Kevin at NERD, by possibly stirring things up interviewing a Canadian vet (who has apparently been doing more harm than good for the reptile keeping hobby), in the video they call out Kevin for the practices that he performs to save reptiles from being put down. Naturally this has angered Kevin and their response video has been posted today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Liam thought "interviewing" someone who has had pass history with Kevin would be a good topic, but its backfired on him (reading the comments in NERDs video he certainly has been hung drawn and quartered by the community), or maybe he has a point and the claims by Dr. Adrian Walton have some substance. Dr. Adrian Walton in some ways personally reminds me of the issues we have here in the UK with Clifford Warwick, who's tactics to get shows stopped and campaigning to get the keeping of all pets banned don't help the hobby, despite him previously being a reptile importer and retailer back in the 90's, assuming the claims stated in NERDs video are true. If they are then has Liam damaged his reputation further by partnering with Dr. Adrian Walton to do the video. I'll let you decide
> 
> Personally I'm not taking any stance. Liam has his followers and on the whole has done a lot to educate and inform people, and from previous discussions here on RFUK does a fair bit support the hobby. I wasn't personally aware of Liam's video (which is strange as he normally post links to them here when released and I've searched his RFUK posts and can't see anything) and this post isn't meant to be detrimental to him on a personal level. I make this post to in order to generate discussion, both on whether you feel the practices Kevin at NERD does is wrong, even though he has a high degree of success. And given the tight knit community over the pond between commercial breeders, does this public mud slinging damaged the hobby in any way?
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, lets have a clean and grown up discussion please.


Malc,

I believe Liam has ceased posting links on RFUK after the last ‘discussion’.

If you haven’t viewed R&R video, then you are inadvertently taking a stance, and that may influence how you are presenting the information.

This certainly is a controversial subject……

Andy


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## Elly66

Firstly I'll point out I can't watch many of these types of videos due to either none or poor subtitles as I'm deaf, so I'm commenting based more on others comments.

Keepers of farm animals commonly treat their animals themselves, giving antibiotics injections, vaccinations, banding (castration) etc. You can buy many of these treatments online and vets will prescribed products for self administration. I often wonder why I can't vaccinate my cats and dogs myself, when it was perfectly acceptable for me to vaccinate my goats? 
What they don't allow in the UK is doing more surgical treatments yourself and for good reason.

In the USA it is a different kettle of fish - unqualified keepers can do more surgical procedures ie disbud animals (early removal of horns). What's scary is how often these procedures are done without pain relief, sterile areas and so forth. 

No matter what out views, surely the most important part is the wellbeing of the animal? No one should be allowed to cause avoidable and unnecessary pain to an animal. Animals shouldn't suffer or be dispatched purely because of their type, size etc.


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## wilkinss77

spigotbush said:


> administering muscular injections is a completely different ball game than open surgery. i would be prepared to do an injection provided i had been shown how, i wouldnt be opening animals up at home.
> this shouldnt be an argument at all, it is never a good idea to perform home surgery. i doubt people who are trained for it would do it at home. considering it as an option leads to the same issues as people force feeding because their snake missed a feed but with significantly worse consequences. vets usually have an out of hours number, if you think your animal needs emergency surgery then use it, its expensive but its there.
> 
> as for liam and kevin, i think they are destined to knock heads forever. does a public argument damage the hobby? i dont think so. we seem to go for the stoic approach and stay away from public arguments. i feel like that simply leads to the general public only ever seeing the negatives and if nobody contests it then they assume everyone feels the same. i dont blame people for wanting to stay out of things like that though, it often comes with feral and abusive fanbases that are extremely unpleasant to deal with.
> 
> why is that vet so bad? i looked him up and i found some references about him being against unlicensed imports and impulse buying.* also him pushing for a ban on online animal sales* but nothing that sounded like he was a complete anti.


I'd say that's pretty anti, as many species can only be obtained online via a courier for those who can't feasibly travel for hundreds of miles, often to places only possible by car- impossible if you don't drive.


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## Malc

Swindinian said:


> Malc,
> 
> I believe Liam has ceased posting links on RFUK after the last ‘discussion’.
> 
> If you haven’t viewed R&R video, then you are inadvertently taking a stance, and that may influence how you are presenting the information.
> 
> This certainly is a controversial subject……
> 
> Andy


Hi Andy, I did indeed trace the video down and have since watched it. I felt as if R&R's video was a continuation (indirectly) to the concerns and panic covered in previous discussions, over the legislation that was being proposed regarding the possible restrictions etc, as Liam kept referencing the anti's and how NERDs material is the ammunition that could be used against the hobby. Granted he may have a point, as (often repeated) operations were performed by an unqualified (in the eyes of the veterinarian profession) person. Part of the problem for me was that a lot of assumptions were made about Kevin's knowledge, and Kevin's claims that he may know more than some vets when it comes to reptiles, yet only moments later Dr Walton was saying the same thing about himself back in the day when he was training, which was somewhat hypercritical IMO. 

Liam raised some good points, but again, from a journalistic point of view these were quite biased, and possibly a lot of comments regarding using the youtube platform as a means to raise income etc can be directed at anyone who uploads videos to that platform that qualify for monetisation, including Liam himself. Other that his video on Royals being arboreal which has 14K views most of R&R's videos average between 800 and 2500 views over their lifetime to date. This one has hit almost 7.9K in three weeks. Liam's passion for the hobby and frustration (dare I say anger) of how detrimental NERDs videos are to the hobby was clear, but was there really a need to go "public" about it, and draw the attention to it? Who benefits from this (with over4K subscribers and the number of views Liam will be financially rewarded as the video would qualify for monetisation - and as stated NERD's video's would also bring in revenue). I'm sure with lobbying from vets and their professional bodies or guilds NERDs DIY surgery videos could have been removed through complaints to YouTube ?

I can see both sides of the coin so to speak. If laws have been broken due to Kevin performing these operations in the state where they are based, then maybe that should have been the route by which Dr Walton and Liam should have gone to get him to stop, and to remove the videos to prevent copycat occurrences. Having a "slanging" match through a media platform hasn't done any party any good in my opinion.

Andy, I agree, a very controversial subject indeed


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## Thrasops

NERD has come out of this looking absolutely stupid to anybody with half a brain cell. Sadly that does not seem to include a great many of their viewers.

They have not addressed any of the concerns Adrian and Liam (very justifiably) brought up and have decided to take the route of ad hominem slanging matches digging up unrelated issues about the people making the accusations. Oddly Rodney of RNBReptiles has largely gone under the radar despite listing the specific state laws they have foolishly documented themselves breaking. (Perhaps they neglected to link to his response for that reason)

You only need to read the relevant paragraphs of legislation that they brought up, it is crystal clear laws are being broken in the NERD videos and they have unwittingly admitted to it.

Snakes have been transported over state lines in contravention of the Lacey act, and animals have been taken in order to perform veterinary medicine on them.

For example New England law RSA-332-B2 regarding whether a licence is required to administer veterinary treatment and exceptions:










'No person may practice veterinary medicine in the state who is not a licensed veterinarian or a holder of a valid temporary permit issue by the board. This chapter shall not be construed to prohibit:

V. the owner of an animal or the owner's regular employee caring for and treating the animal belonging to such owner, EXCEPT WHERE THE OWNERSHIP OF THE ANIMAL WAS TRANSFERRED FOR PURPOSES OF CIRCUMVENTING THIS CHAPTER.'

They have stated multiple times in multiple cases they are taking on people's animals in order to perform veterinary care upon them, this is documented in their videos and their facebook. Not only that, they have stated they 'took ownership' of the animals when the Facebook posts of the animals original owners seemed to imply anything but. Oddly those posts got removed but RNBReptiles did save them. Now either I am completely misunderstanding the laws as written, or they simply don't care about the law and are angry somebody has pointed it out?

From a personal point of view, I am sympathetic to the NERD side for trying to help an animal out, I guess from a certain point of view they are doing a good deed and can't find it in myself to be against that. If they were not trying to milk it for views or making out Kevin knows as much as a vet and all that rubbish, or filming it and showing it on Youtube, I would be ambivalent.

What DOES look bad is when they start posting it online for everybody to SEE they are breaking laws, or putting out videos advising people to 'save thousands of dollars by tying dental floss around a growth rather than seeing a vet.' How does THAT help the hobby?

At the end of the day though, this seems to be as much a war of qualifications as anything else. The cult of Youtube may be one thing and viewers can choose to believe or ignore anything either side says.

Put both sides in court though and no lawyer in his right mind would put Kevin, for all his supposed experience and 'knowledge,' up against a qualified and accredited vet like Adrian. Which made the parts where Kevin was arguing with what the vet said interesting to listen to and often rather amusing. It's a glaring example of the difference between 'real life' and 'this weird online world so many reptile keepers retreat to.'

It reminds me very much of another well known reptile 'expert' in Australia (who used to post on this forum) that got taken to court for performing DIY surgery on his snakes. He also seemed to be a bit high on his own celebrity and attempted to argue with the testimony of accredited vets and scientists despite having no formal academic qualification himself. Let's just say the Judge's notes and comments from that hearing are a matter of public record and make for a similarly amusing read... right before he got pronounced guilty.

As for all the ad hominem against Adrian, some may find Kevin's initial stance on the topic of the euthanasia of those snakes has changed somewhat over time.










ISN'T THAT STRANGE?

It's almost as if, rather than critiquing the vet brought in to implement the government's decision to euthanise 56 illegally held snakes, the hobby instead should be criticising the people breaking the laws in the first place? And that digging up an event that happened ten years ago to try and discredit a qualified source, when Kevin himself agreed with (or at least understood and accepted) his position at the time, might be a deflection against completely different aspersions?

Nah that sounds far too simple.

My opinion is that the hobby all too often adopts the attitude of 'closing ranks' to protect strangers that have broken the law rather than doing the responsible (and braver) thing and going against the grain to point out, no, just because somebody is famous does not excuse them bringing the hobby into disrepute by breaking laws - and then, wittingly or unwittingly, flaunting it by posting it online.


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## Malc

Some excellent comments there...

One of the things that concerned me was the "dirt" that NERD dredged up which included the euthanising of those 56 Retics in 2013. In their video it portrays Dr Walton as being someone who was a heartless villain and put the snakes down for no reason other than the law of the land. In reality it would seem that he had no choice, as his own rescue centre was full, and no other centres are licenced to keep snakes listed on the governments guidelines.

I found this news report form the time, which paints him in a different light to that portrayed in NERDS video



> Animal advocates are urging the government to fund a reptile rescue facility after 56 illegal pythons were seized from a Mission home and destroyed.
> 
> Conservation officers made the slithery discovery Thursday. The seized species, some reaching five metres long, were amongst 100 snakes living at the residence.
> The 56 reticulated pythons, which are restricted by the B.C. Ministry of Environment over safety concerns, were destroyed and the other legal snakes were left at the home.
> 
> Conservation officer Dave Cox said the snakes were euthanized because they pose a risk to public safety and are a dangerous animal.
> 
> Dewdney Animal Hospital veterinarian Dr. Adrian Walton, who euthanized the snakes, has a permit to keep the restricted reptiles, but faced a heart-wrenching decision when so many needed a home.
> 
> “That was my call. We are the only facility in B.C. that has a rescue licence to keep them and I am currently full. I have space for five snakes and that’s it,” he said.
> 
> Mike Hopcraft, who runs The Reptile Guy education centre, said the government imposed the ban without considering where to put the illegal animals.
> 
> “The government put new laws in place four years ago to prohibit these animals but did not put a plan in place to house them when they are confiscated so now they are all senselessly being executed,” Hopcraft said.
> 
> Hopcraft said the ministry needs to fund a rescue centre for the seized and confiscated illegal reptiles.
> 
> Walton said relocating the snakes would have been very difficult because every jurisdiction bans the animals.
> 
> As a result, the 56 snakes were euthanized.
> 
> “As a veterinarian we do this humanly,” Walton said. “You have to remember I love these animals, this would be very upsetting for me if I didn’t think we could do it humanely.”
> 
> This latest seizure comes just days after 40 pythons were seized from a southern Ontario motel room where children were living.
> 
> Earlier in August, two young boys were killed by an African rock python in New Brunswick.
> 
> Walton said that while it is rare for these animals to kill or injure people, it is inappropriate for them to be kept in homes.
> 
> “These large snakes… some are not so nice… they are inappropriate to have in a private residence. They should be kept in a zoological facility,” Walton said.
> 
> Hopcraft hopes this kind of facility will be funded in the future.
> 
> “Why is it that the snakes don’t count as lives? When will people realize that these are all living creatures?” he said.


It does seem more of a failing of the Canadian Government which seem more on a mission (at the time) to eradicate large snakes rather than just remove them... but then I guess if everyone had 50+ retics you still have the problem, and the reasons cited don't change...

This is the thing with social media, or media platforms. The videos can be edited and clips used out of context, (by both parties in this case) and you don't get to see the full story.


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Some excellent comments there...
> 
> One of the things that concerned me was the "dirt" that NERD dredged up which included the euthanising of those 56 Retics in 2013. In their video it portrays Dr Walton as being someone who was a heartless villain and put the snakes down for no reason other than the law of the land. In reality it would seem that he had no choice, as his own rescue centre was full, and no other centres are licenced to keep snakes listed on the governments guidelines.
> 
> I found this news report form the time, which paints him in a different light to that portrayed in NERDS video
> 
> 
> 
> It does seem more of a failing of the Canadian Government which seem more on a mission (at the time) to eradicate large snakes rather than just remove them... but then I guess if everyone had 50+ retics you still have the problem, and the reasons cited don't change...
> 
> This is the thing with social media, or media platforms. The videos can be edited and clips used out of context, (by both parties in this case) and you don't get to see the full story.


Malc, it is all very obvious deflection.

Legal and ethical concerns have been raised about what NERD is showing and doing and saying. At least some of which would seem to be grounded in fact.

NERD has decided to take the stance of making this about the person making the accusations, as if that somehow makes what they are doing excusable. They are highlighting the problems of Canadian keepers... but the topic of discussion is not whether Canadians should be able to keep large snakes, nor even whether Adrian Walton should have euthanised 56 snakes. The topic of discussion is whether NERD is and has broken laws and whether what they are showing is ethical.

They have been very thorough digging up dirt on a vet, when in reality any vet might be faced with the difficult decision of euthanasia on any given day for all kinds of reasons.

Where they have been less thorough is in rebutting the actual accusations... Arguing veterinary testimony and opinion by pitting Kevin's opinions against a qualified veterinary professional... (I am sure Kevin is very knowledgable but personally I am going to go with the opinion of an accredited exotics vet EVERY time. For a start, I'd also point out he does not even have the most up to date copies of those veterinary texts in 'Kevin's Book Collection...')

...'clapping back' against him pointing out the scalpels were not sterile by holding an unopened set of scalpel blades marked 'sterile blades' when in the video he picked up an already opened scalpel off a table (it is therefore not sterile anymore)...

...getting soundbytes from a palaeontologist with no veterinary background...

...it all looks good on the surface which is what Youtubers are GOOD at. As you say, using little clips and soundbytes and SOUNDING confident. That Australian guy I mentioned earlier was amazing at that too. And as it did for him, it would all get absolutely thrown out in court.



Don't get me wrong, faced with the choice of a keeper not being able to provide veterinary treatment, or euthanising an animal, or driving it across a state line to get it to somebody knowledgeable that can cure it, I would completely turn a blind eye to the latter. The real problem is the stubborn insistence of advertising it and filming it and making it downright obvious, and then stubbornly doubling down when people point out, actually, that's not legal. When it comes to saving the snake, I am in general on-side with whichever method saves a snake - although I do not condone surgery by unlicensed and unqualified people. So I am sure most people would agree there is an element of 'what is right vs what is legal' going on.


What is MORE disturbing, what people REALLY should be looking at, are the more secretive stories whispered about employees being forced to sign non-disclosure agreements, or stories of entire collections riddled with nidovirus, or the photos ostensibly being smuggled out of these places of racks full of dead and dying snakes. I've been shown some pretty grim images so far, currently trying to verify their source. Because if true, they put all this 'Dr Death' nonsense under the shadow of some insane hypocrisy.


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## loxocemus

my opinion and i know its paltry worth, this is the classic lets paint ur preferred side as a monster, dig into their history no matter how unrelated to the initial point, frances has admitted he's doing just that, why, when the battle is teetering in views and clicks and virtual eyes, bring up whispers, strengthen them as fact to win ur point.

like everyone else who have chosen to involve themselves are as pure as driven snow, no hoarders amongst them, none with secrets that would taint their persona if they became public, picked apart in some youtube video for example.

what does it make all involved, gossip whores, whisper mongers, petty children who cry "what about the animals", they don't give a shit about them. what they care about is winning the argument in the eyes of, and this is the laughable part, other gossip whores, people with personal vendettas, people who just live for this pointless shit.

if you get involved u taint urself, u bring urself down. this isn't a hobby issue, this is a tiny pimple on the hobby's ass, perpetuated by youtube click seekers, clickbait whores, ego maniacs, all of whom just happen to profess its not about their ego, their side, their theory's, their gossip, their "sources" its about the animals, buuuuuullllshhhhiiiaaattt.

the hobby will sit on this pimple and it will be forgotten, its as old as the internet itself, this one just has a loose connection to the professed animals, who are quickly forgotten to become about side A and side B.

feed the beast if you must, your achievement, someone you don't know will disagree with you and ad infinitum, oh but just remember, its about some animal or other u have to remind urself of by scrolling thru the comment history.

touching.

rgds
ed.


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## Jibbajabba

Let's be honest, anyone would do whatever it takes to save an animal. And when I was still keeping hots I did also whatever it takes to save a snake from being put down. I had some close calls but I refused to listen to the vet and some snakes I saved with 'DIY surgery' lived a long life. That's assuming you can even find a vet that is happy to even talk about hots. 

The problem I have with Kevin is that he does that in public. And that he gives advise - whether when it comes to medication (i.e. which antibiotic to give) or how to perform an 'eggstraction' (sorry, couldn't help it).

Another issue I have with him doing what he does is the fact he indeed never, or rarely, talks pain management. And he always claims that he talks to vets etc., which he clearly does otherwise he wouldn't get prescription only medication. But then why not go further and ensure every animal has pain medication administered or is temporarily knocked out.

More so - don't do that stuff in public. You never know who watches. My son loves to watch reptile shows on youtube and the last thing I want is him taking a knife to my boa because uncle Kevin told him it's fine. 

Anyway - I am between a rock and a hard place. 

Do I do what it takes to save an animal ? Yes. 
Do I advertise it ? No. 
Do I think what Kevin does is right ? No. 
Do I get why? Yes.

More so - do I have vets that even understand reptiles ? Not even in a 100 mile radius. I have one that is happy to 'look' but says he got 0 experience. 

Oh I mentioned surgery - just to be clear - I am not talking about digging with my huge fingers up a snakes bum or something. Before I get told off here - I am talking about small things. I had a Gaboon Viper biting herself losing a fang in her behind. Which I didn't notice. That got affected. Massive abscess. I could not just find no vet, but no 'regular' vet willing to touch a hot. All I was able to do is get some people around for backup (was part of the bite protocol anyway when working with hots) and open it up. Removed the fang, cleaned it out, all good. That was after talking to a vet who essentially said 'If it were a cat I would do it like that'. The cut wasn't even Kevin like (where you could fit a whole damn finger in) - it was more like 'splinter' size.

Did I put up a video ? Of course not.

I don't know the laws in the UK actually regarding 'home surgery' - and I bet you would have to argue where a small procedure stops and surgery begins, but one thing I would never do no matter how clever I think I am - give medication by myself ....


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## jclee

Just a reminder that part of the larger context is that many states in the US are considering and/or passing laws that ban/restrict many reptiles as pets (and some states are banning 'travelling shows,' which would include educational outreach facilities). Aside from general considerations of one's personal ethical stance, the legality of his actions, and the act of posting them publicly, videos like these can easily become ammunition for those arguing for blanket bans against reptile keeping. 

For those interested, USARK keeps a list of legislation that is under consideration by various states. You can find their *alerts here*. There are a _lot _of them. Some are well-intentioned, but they have wide-reaching implications. If you're part of this conversation (at large), you might also want to look into the underlying legal implications for US reptile keepers, overall.


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## Elly66

@Jibbajabba What you describe with the access sounds no different than treating bumblefoot in chickens, guinea pigs etc. Veterinary advice for it was " right, this is what you need to do" followed by an indepth description and the asking if we felt comfortable doing it. I think it's about balance, knowing what pain is likely to be caused and risks involved AND accepting that sometimes you really do need a vet.


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## Malc

Fantastic discussion, and Jibbajabba really hit the nail on the head, whilst we can all understand why Kevin undertakes procedures, making the videos and posting in a public forum is questionable. I guess it's no different to those videos of people videoing themselves driving 1200HP scubies at 200mph along a 70mph motorway, uploading and hoping they don't get caught (although some do and their own video is used as evidence against them !).

But Kevin has been posting these sort of videos for some considerable time now so you would have thought that by now he would have already been reported to the police and found himself in court? Interesting if you look on the AVMA website there is a listing of the range of penalties for people found practicing unlicensed veterinary work in the various states. In the state where NERD are based the penalties are


*New Hampshire*
Misdemeanor
Each act of such unlawful practice shall constitute a distinct and separate offense
Injunction
Civil penalties assessed by the board in the amount of $2,000 per violation, or, in the case of continuing violations, $200 for each day the violation continues, whichever is greater


So not really much of a deterrent consider the size of his company, and not a lot compared to some states where the fines are 10x as much. There are just four states with felony penalties for the unauthorized practice of veterinary medicine: Florida, Michigan, Nevada, and New York, but even then its classed as the lowest class of felony.


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## al stotton

I was done with the Nerds after the video of him nonchalantly chuckling about trying to breed a boa with an anaconda , she's already eaten a male he jokes. what a complete moron.
As for the vid in question , the line 'I'm a guitar player' whilst defending his lack of gloves (basic hygiene) is completely hilarious. Anyone who names themselves Evil Morph God is a total narcissist.


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## Thrasops

In the past reptile keepers did have to learn some basic remedies and medicine on the fly (I'm sure older keepers all remember Vapona strips being used to treat mites, which for a while got banned in the UK as they turned out to be carcinogenic). At other times, as Ian14 stated above, vets prescribe a medication and instruct you on how to deliver it. That's totally normal. One might even have to develop a basic understanding of very simple remedies and how to treat various minor maladies. That was also normal. Basic treatments for parasites, minor wounds and abrasions, rehydration, retained sheds; all the regular stuff that anybody dealing with imported animals should have a basic understanding of.

But unqualified pet owners - no matter how experienced or knowledgeable - outright performing major surgery, cutting into an animal, sticking their hands into viscera, injecting fluids into growths, excising growths (with dental floss no less!), prescribing drugs themselves? That would be completely illegal here in the UK and as far as I can tell at least _skirts_ the law over there (I am not an attorney, I do not know where the line is drawn between '_the owner of the animal or the owner's regular employee caring for an animal belonging to such owner_' and 'performing complex surgery on them' but '_taking on other people's animals to do so_' outright breaks the New Hampshire state laws from what I can see). But worse, filming it, advertising it on Youtube where 250K subscribers can see it, advising others to do it, often under sensationalist headlines like 'save thousands of dollars on snake surgery by using this trick!'

That goes way over what is unethical and into the obscene. It gives anybody against the hobby - and there are plenty - more ammunition. For all that people in the UK seem relatively unbothered by the threat of legislation - and I can understand that to an extent as we have been warned about it for decades and are still here - what is going on in Europe, Canada and the US proves that the 'anti' movement there really does not need any help.

Several countries in Europe have already passed positive lists. At least one German state is on the brink of banning venomous snakes. Spain has outright banned Royal pythons virtually overnight. Scotland was considering positive lists in September. Canada is stricken by proposed laws, bans and positive lists. Various US states are pushing for further legislation. I have seen at least two petitions already underway pushing Youtube, Facebook and Twitch to ban such videos.

Content like this from one of the most followed and subscribed reptile channels on Youtube is NOT going to help any of that. It WILL be used against the hobby and because so many in the people in the hobby are defending what this guy is doing, it makes us all look complicit.

I really do not see a pass for this kind of video, and I do not see how any responsible keeper could overlook this sort of thing.



Jibbajabba said:


> Do I do what it takes to save an animal ? Yes.
> Do I advertise it ? No.
> Do I think what Kevin does is right ? No.
> Do I get why? Yes.


THIS. So very much this. It is a nuanced issue. The problem is not really saving the animals, I think most animal lovers would sympathise with that. It's the crass way they _advertise_ what they are doing. I don't know if it is Kevin at fault for that or Donny, I don't follow NERD and didn't know much about them before I was shown what they were doing.

One only has to scroll down their playlist though to see that every other video is a treatment video these days showing sick or injured snakes. Which might beg the question, well why do they have so many sick and injured snakes? Even for a large collection it is a _lot_. Either something is seriously wrong with the husbandry there or something else is going on.

Turns out people have been asking that for a while. And their response was simply 'other people bring us their animals to treat.'

Which you would think is very nice - and it is. It's awesome of them. Except it is _breaking state laws_ I pointed out in a previous comment.

So what should NERD do? Should they stop taking on peoples sick animals and 'bringing them back from the brink' - or, should they stop advertising what they are doing on Youtube for likes and smilies and not double down when people point out - hey, what you are doing is breaking the law?

I find it all very conflicting. Do you refuse to treat animals, because hey, apparently there are no vets in the entire state that can treat snakes (I saw Mariah Healey of Reptifiles list three specialist vets near to NERD HQ and 11 exotic vets listed in their state yesterday so that seems to be BS)... or do you continue doing the good deed but bl**dy shut up about it?




Several countries in Europe have already passed positive lists. At least one German state is on the brink of banning venomous snakes. Spain has outright banned Royal pythons virtually overnight. Scotland was considering positive lists in September. Canada is stricken by proposed laws, bans and positive lists. Various US states are pushing for further legislation.

Videos like this from one of the most followed and subscribed channels on Youtube are NOT going to help any of that. They WILL be used against the hobby and it does not look good that so many in the hobby defend what this guy is doing. Anybody thinking that this is solely an _American _problem only has to look at two of the more animal-rights slanted peer-reviewed studies that were published in Germany, which _specifically _targeted NERD videos and Kevin McCurley's book as an example of typical practices used by reptile keepers and why they are problematic... this is not a '_supposition_' or '_reaching_,' this is something that is happening right _now:_

Workgroup 8 (Pet Shop and Pet Trade) from Veterinary Association for Animal Protection, Federal Association for Expertise on Nature, Animal and Species Protection, Workgroup Diseases of Amphibians and Reptiles (Group of the German Society for Herpetology and Herpetoculture), the DVG (German Veterinary society) „Study Group Zoo Animal, Wild Animal and exotic Animal Medicin and the DVG “_Study Group Pet Birds, Zoo Birds, Wild Birds, Reptiles and Amphibians and the Munich Rescue Center for Reptiles Statement on rack-keeping snakes 2013 [_AK8 (Zoofachhandel und Heimtierhaltung) der TVT, des BNA, der AG ARK (DGHT), der DVG-Fachgruppe ZWE, der DVG Fachgruppe Zier-,Zoo- und Wildvögel, Reptilien und Amphibien und der Auffangstation für Reptilien München e.V. Stellungnahme zur Rackhaltung von Schlangen. 2013.] [cited 04.04.2020]

Hollandt, Tina, Markus Baur, and Anna-Caroline Wöhr. "Animal-appropriate housing of ball pythons (Python regius)—Behavior-based evaluation of two types of housing systems." _Plos one_ 16.5 (2021): e0247082.


I cannot comment for anybody else but I'm quite heavily invested in this hobby and would rather not see the worst offenders spoil it for everybody else. That's always been my particular stance.


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## Malc

Thrasops said:


> In the past reptile keepers did have to learn some basic remedies and medicine on the fly (I'm sure older keepers all remember Vapona strips being used to treat mites, which for a while got banned in the UK as they turned out to be carcinogenic).


Remember it well... If I recall there was even an unofficial "guide" that gave you the amount in grams per cubic foot of vivarium that needed to be cut off one of those block type versions that resembled an air freshener.... but it worked, and I never lost a snake through its use on the rare occasion mites got introduced!!!


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Remember it well... If I recall there was even an unofficial "guide" that gave you the amount in grams per cubic foot of vivarium that needed to be cut off one of those block type versions that resembled an air freshener.... but it worked, and I never lost a snake through its use on the rare occasion mites got introduced!!!


Yep same. Certainly seemed far less dangerous than the current over-the-counter chemical mite remedies, I have seen a lot of snakes killed by incorrectly applied Callingtons or Frontline (which is not even over the counter any more)...


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Performing surgery on an animal without the appropriate training is absolutely barbaric. 

Having said that, I am not sure what Liam hoped to gain from highlighting this especially with the heat well and truely on the hobby at the moment.


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## ian14

Thrasops said:


> Yep same. Certainly seemed far less dangerous than the current over-the-counter chemical mite remedies, I have seen a lot of snakes killed by incorrectly applied Callingtons or Frontline (which is not even over the counter any more)...


Frontline spray can easily be bought online without prescription from UK vet suppliers. I bought some recently as one of my cats brought home some unwanted hitchhikers. Simply created an account online, ticked the cat box, and it arrived 2 days later.
Back when it was the only option after Vapona was banned, it was prescription only. So you just told the vet it was for a dog or cat and voila, bottle of Frontline spray to take home.
I have to say, though, that Vapona was without doubt the most effective mite killer we had.


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## wilkinss77

ian14 said:


> Frontline spray can easily be bought online without prescription from UK vet suppliers. I bought some recently as one of my cats brought home some unwanted hitchhikers. Simply created an account online, ticked the cat box, and it arrived 2 days later.
> Back when it was the only option after Vapona was banned, it was prescription only. So you just told the vet it was for a dog or cat and voila, bottle of Frontline spray to take home.
> I have to say, though, that Vapona was without doubt the most effective mite killer we had.


I found it better than Callingtons, as well as miles cheaper & easier to get, being available from supermarkets, DIY stores & convenience shops.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

ian14 said:


> Frontline spray can easily be bought online without prescription from UK vet suppliers. I bought some recently as one of my cats brought home some unwanted hitchhikers. Simply created an account online, ticked the cat box, and it arrived 2 days later.
> Back when it was the only option after Vapona was banned, it was prescription only. So you just told the vet it was for a dog or cat and voila, bottle of Frontline spray to take home.
> I have to say, though, that Vapona was without doubt the most effective mite killer we had.


Frontline isn't the best for cats - Advantage or Advocate are much better.


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## Thrasops

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Performing surgery on an animal without the appropriate training is absolutely barbaric.
> 
> Having said that, I am not sure what Liam hoped to gain from highlighting this especially with the heat well and truely on the hobby at the moment.


I think you have answered your own question to be honest.

You remember about two months ago, when Liam posted a video where he systematically took apart and destroyed the anti assertion that '75% of reptiles die in their first year in captivity,' and a bunch of people jumped on him because the way he had phrased the title 'made the hobby look bad' and 'furthered the goals of the antis'? (not just here, but on Facebook and the video comments as well).

Yeah, that. If the title of his video was so detrimental, how much worse is a series of regular videos depicting DIY surgeries by an unqualified person, with some even advocating 'saving money from going to vets' with home surgery? Or - wittingly or unwittingly - breaking state law? Liam was trying to point out something that does _not _make the hobby look good. He also did not mention which channel he was criticising at all by name, and he made several attempts to contact that person privately beforehand and got no response.

I have never followed any of the big Youtube reptile channels but when I was made aware of what they are doing, I have to confess I was appalled. As I am sure many people were. I didn't say anything though. So I guess that makes me as complicit as everybody else that kept silent. Rightly or wrongly, I think he did so because _somebody _had to?



ian14 said:


> Frontline spray can easily be bought online without prescription from UK vet suppliers. I bought some recently as one of my cats brought home some unwanted hitchhikers. Simply created an account online, ticked the cat box, and it arrived 2 days later.
> Back when it was the only option after Vapona was banned, it was prescription only. So you just told the vet it was for a dog or cat and voila, bottle of Frontline spray to take home.
> I have to say, though, that Vapona was without doubt the most effective mite killer we had.


Right, but some vets will point blank refuse selling it for reptiles face to face because 'it is for cats and dogs.' Others will sell it after giving the standard advice of using a dab of it on a cloth and 'polishing' the snake once from neck to tail. And I guess there _is _an element of danger about the product, I remember a local shop ordered in some African snakes for me about 10-15 years ago and killed them all because they doused their enclosures with Frontline. They lost two _Psammophis_, two _Platyceps_ and a File snake that way before I even got to see them, by spraying the stuff liberally inside the enclosures.

I agree Vapona was the most effective and easiest solution.



wilkinss77 said:


> I found it better than Callingtons, as well as miles cheaper & easier to get, being available from supermarkets, DIY stores & convenience shops.


Oddly at one point Callingtons was sold everywhere near me - garden centres, Pets @ Home, all the usual reptile shops. Whereas Frontline became really hard to get hold of at one point (I had to order mine from Paris years back, cannot remember if there was a shortage or what). Could just be differences in location.

I dislike Callingtons a lot though. It seems to have some severe side effects for certain genera like hognoses, some geckos and supposedly Drymarchon. It works OK to kill mites inside an enclosure but I never really had much luck by following the instructions.

I use Ardap a few times a year around the skirting of my reptile rooms. It seems to do its job and I have not had a mite infestation in my main collection for years - but a few years back I did have two otherwise completely healthy baby snakes die overnight after I used it so that also set off alarm bells. At the end of the day, prevention is the single best cure, which is why I am so freakishly paranoid about the possibility of introducing mites.


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## Thrasops

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Frontline isn't the best for cats - Advantage or Advocate are much better.


Yeah, my vet advocates Advocate for our cat.
(See what I did there?  )


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

Thrasops said:


> Yeah, my vet advocates Advocate for our cat.
> (See what I did there?  )


It probably has an advantage over Advantage


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Thrasops said:


> I think you have answered your own question to be honest.
> 
> You remember about two months ago, when Liam posted a video where he systematically took apart and destroyed the anti assertion that '75% of reptiles die in their first year in captivity,' and a bunch of people jumped on him because the way he had phrased the title 'made the hobby look bad' and 'furthered the goals of the antis'?
> 
> Yeah, that. If the title of his video was so detrimental, how much worse is a series of regular videos depicting DIY surgeries by an unqualified person, with some even advocating 'saving money from going to vets' with home surgery? Or - wittingly or unwittingly - breaking state law? Liam was trying to point out something that does _not _make the hobby look good. He also did not mention which channel he was criticising at all by name, and he made several attempts to contact that person privately beforehand and got no response.
> 
> I have never followed any of the big Youtube reptile channels but when I was made aware of what they are doing, I have to confess I was appalled. As I am sure many people were. I didn't say anything though. So I guess that makes me as complicit as everybody else that kept silent. Rightly or wrongly, I think he did so because _somebody _had to?


You and I both know the hobby is not whiter than white and yes, maybe by not commenting or objecting we are in some way condoning the actions of said individual - I prefer to say that everyone is accountable for his or her own actions and not the actions of others or indeed an entire hobby.

It just doesn't sit well with me that someone from within the hobby is creating additional waves at a time when we are already in the eye of a storm.

I don't know Liam personally but I like the fact he is challenging the status quo and willing to ask the tough questions that demand answers - I just don't know if now is the right time.


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## Thrasops

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> You and I both know the hobby is not whiter than white and yes, maybe by not commenting or objecting we are in some way condoning the actions of said individual - I prefer to say that everyone is accountable for his or her own actions and not the actions of others or indeed an entire hobby.
> 
> It just doesn't sit well with me that someone from within the hobby is creating additional waves at a time when we are already in the eye of a storm.
> 
> I don't know Liam personally but I like the fact he is challenging the status quo and willing to ask the tough questions that demand answers - I just don't know if now is the right time.


I understand and acknowledge your point even if I do not fully agree with it.

My main perspective being 'if not now, then when?' We are _always _in the eye of the storm. The way things are, things are not going to get better for the hobby, they will continue to get worse. More legislation, more restrictions on what is exported from different countries, what people are allowed to keep, how they are allowed to keep them. It can all seem very far away sitting in England, where we are relatively sheltered and reasonably well protected from legislative change. This is not the case world wide though. Just this afternoon I have been shown a document with a new revision of a Statement of the German Society of Herpetology (DGHT) to comment on the “EU Action Plan against illegal wildlife trafficking” for example.

Look at it like this. Who is 'someone from within the hobby creating additional waves at a time when we are already in the eye of a storm' - a person breaking laws and providing ammunition for antis, or a person that points it out? Surely if the ammunition was not there in the first place, then nobody would have anything to criticise. There are those that seem to imply it is better to leave well alone and mind your own business. But I believe it is important to show the hobby IS responsible and does challenge the things that provide ammunition for antis. That is precisely why we founded AHH after all! To my mind, what is _more _of a problem for the hobby is the negative response Liam's video is getting and the support for NERD. I am sure many would argue with me about that though. Still, that is _my _opinion.


I _do_ happen to know Liam personally, he is a thoroughly nice chap but he is young and passionate (as we all once were) and sometimes a hobby full of jaded and cynical old timers like us needs a periodic injection of young and passionate people to shake up the status quo. (I did warn him he was going to get a strong negative pushback though, just as _we _at AHH did a decade and more ago when we challenged the Snakebytes/ Barczyk fandom... and yet, even there great strides have been made).


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## Malc

Maybe I am part of the problem, in that by making the original post to a) raise awareness of NERDs activities and how they responded to Liams video, b) to discuss the points raised in both videos, c) discuss the legality of NERDs practices, and d) to question if by "making things public" Liam's video was done for the same reasons NERD do these videos, that being views and subscribers. This thread has had over 700 views in 4 days, and no doubt has contributed to the views of both videos, which could be a good or bad thing depending on what side of the fence you sit.

I can see the points Francis has raised, and yes it seems that governments in most countries are being lobbied by the anti's to bring in more legislation and restrictions, and they don't have to look far to find the ammunition they need given how wide spread social media is, but equally as most of these concerns are NIMBY can see why people feel others are panicking over nothing, especially as on most counts those who have been long term in the hobby have seen it all before.

I think on this subject Liam was dammed if he does, or dammed if he didn't make his video... I don't know him personally, but agree he has a passion for the hobby, much the same as we all did when we were younger (I've been in this hobby 35 years, some have been longer), when we wanted to eat, sleep, and breath everything reptile.

One thing for sure it's generated some interesting discussions, and created some awareness to the issue going on in the hobby.


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Maybe I am part of the problem, in that by making the original post to a) raise awareness of NERDs activities and how they responded to Liams video, b) to discuss the points raised in both videos, c) discuss the legality of NERDs practices, and d) to question if by "making things public" Liam's video was done for the same reasons NERD do these videos, that being views and subscribers. This thread has had over 700 views in 4 days, and no doubt has contributed to the views of both videos, which could be a good or bad thing depending on what side of the fence you sit.
> 
> I can see the points Francis has raised, and yes it seems that governments in most countries are being lobbied by the anti's to bring in more legislation and restrictions, and they don't have to look far to find the ammunition they need given how wide spread social media is, but equally as most of these concerns are NIMBY can see why people feel others are panicking over nothing, especially as on most counts those who have been long term in the hobby have seen it all before.
> 
> I think on this subject Liam was dammed if he does, or dammed if he didn't make his video... I don't know him personally, but agree he has a passion for the hobby, much the same as we all did when we were younger (I've been in this hobby 35 years, some have been longer), when we wanted to eat, sleep, and breath everything reptile.
> 
> One thing for sure it's generated some interesting discussions, and created some awareness to the issue going on in the hobby.


For the record I certainly do not think you are part of a problem just for sharing the videos and discussing the topic at all. I think we are on a reptile forum, what else would be discussing? As long as we are discussing maturely 
I think sweeping the issue under the carpet would be a problem. Which I feel is why the hobby has got to where it is in some areas. Again just my personal opinion.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Seemingly the snake has now passed away.


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## ian14

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Seemingly the snake has now passed away.


Which one?
I saw today an autopsy after his leucistic King cobra died. It was actually a very informative video, with an autopsy conducted by two vets.
It seems that blue eyed lucy king Cobras are not likely to become available as they have a faulty gene.


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## Malc

ian14 said:


> Which one?
> I saw today an autopsy after his leucistic King cobra died. It was actually a very informative video, with an autopsy conducted by two vets.
> It seems that blue eyed lucy king Cobras are not likely to become available as they have a faulty gene.


The problem is that with these leucistic King Cobras being so rare (from Kevin's account there were possibly two or three others and it's not clear if they are dead or alive, it would be difficult to say if they do have faulty genes unless an necropsy was undertaken on those other snakes if they have also died. At the start of the video part of me wondered if the mourning shown was for the snake or the financial hit he has obviously suffered, not only for the rumoured hundreds of thousands of dollars the snake cost him, but the loss of any potential income from any breeding plans that involved lilith. But then you do get the feeling through the rest of the video that he had really forged a bond /affinity with the snake and the grief was more genuine.

One thing for sure, the shit that has been thrown in his direction must have stuck as this time he invited / employed not one but two vets to perform the necropsy rather than performing it himself and uploading the video !


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## Thrasops

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Seemingly the snake has now passed away.





ian14 said:


> Which one?
> I saw today an autopsy after his leucistic King cobra died. It was actually a very informative video, with an autopsy conducted by two vets.
> It seems that blue eyed lucy king Cobras are not likely to become available as they have a faulty gene.





Malc said:


> The problem is that with these leucistic King Cobras being so rare (from Kevin's account there were possibly two or three others and it's not clear if they are dead or alive, it would be difficult to say if they do have faulty genes unless an necropsy was undertaken on those other snakes if they have also died. At the start of the video part of me wondered if the mourning shown was for the snake or the financial hit he has obviously suffered, not only for the rumoured hundreds of thousands of dollars the snake cost him, but the loss of any potential income from any breeding plans that involved lilith. But then you do get the feeling through the rest of the video that he had really forged a bond /affinity with the snake and the grief was more genuine.
> 
> One thing for sure, the shit that has been thrown in his direction must have stuck as this time he invited / employed not one but two vets to perform the necropsy rather than performing it himself and uploading the video !


So I was not going to say anything, as it is always sad when an animal passes away - and it is very obvious that Lilith's loss hit Kevin hard, the man was obviously cut up about it and that is always sad to see. Regardless of differences in our understanding and methods of keeping and welfare, we all are pet keepers that care for our animals. It was heartbreaking seeing Kevin's reaction to her death. I felt it.

BUT... and it is the 'but' that always comes from somebody with an irritating personality 

He mentioned Lilith had a broken bone beneath the eye (presumably the pterygoid, he mentioned it 'started with a p' but could not remember) that went undetected and ended up calcified.

That snake's eye was treated a year ago.






In this video the eye was treated as a bacterial infection. The fangs were checked. Its mouth forced open and objects removed (which _may_ possibly have cause the broken bone, it isn't outside the realm of possibility - Kings bite HARD).

and







I am curious if veterinary assistance was ever sought back then (it does not appear so - maybe I am wrong). An x-ray would have caught the mineralised heart, kidneys and epithelial lining... it would have caught the broken bone. Veterinary diagnosis might have caught any potential hyperuricaemia. The 'odd' symptoms he mentioned observing such as the 'squishy bit' on her side (oedema) should have been followed up on, and again should have led to this diagnosis. I don't mean to sound like I am kicking a man that has just lost a cherished pet when he is down just to score a point, but if veterinary assistance had been sought then all these things might have been noted and maybe the fact the snake had long-term gout would have been detected.

(It must be said, even if it gout had been detected back then there is not really much that could be done to save Lilith but that is eleven months of suffering the snake experienced without anybody realising what was going on). This is _exactly_ why veterinary examination and diagnosis should always be the first port of call, even for somebody that is obviously experienced and competent.

Regardless of all that, this is a sad outcome and I agree it is nice to see Kevin deferring to vets for once and showing their procedure, it was an interesting video although one none of us wanted to see.


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## Malc

Thrasops said:


> So I was not going to say anything, as it is always sad when an animal passes away - and it is very obvious that Lilith's loss hit Kevin hard, the man was obviously cut up about it and that is always sad to see. Regardless of differences in our understanding and methods of keeping and welfare, we all are pet keepers that care for our animals. It was heartbreaking seeing Kevin's reaction to her death. I felt it.
> 
> BUT... and it is the 'but' that always comes from somebody with an irritating personality
> 
> <snip>


Couldn't agree more. Not a great analogy, but often when something goes wrong with a car, the home DIY mechanic will try and resolve the initial problem, without searching for the underlaying cause, for example a strange ware pattern on the tyre they may change the tyre and think that's all it is, when a skilled mechanic would pick up on tracking issues cause by warn ball joints or play in a steering rack, which could be very serious indeed.

In this case Kevin performed a treatment for the eye, which in his wisdom, and experience thought it was a localised issue, when in reality there were clues that something else was going on that he either he missed through inexperience (or ego as he's often claimed to know more than vets ), or when discovered didn't do the right thing and follow it up with x-rays or CT scans that vets have access to which would then confirm the underlaying issue. Granted once discovered if it was too advanced there would be nothing they could do for the snake and maybe if it had been discovered earlier the snake wouldn't have suffered as putting it to sleep would have been a kinder thing to do.

It is sad when an animal passes, especially one so rare. Regardless of personal viewpoints on Kevin's activities such as those discussed here, you can't help but feel for the guy and what he is possibly going through at the moment.


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## LiasisUK

He's probably mainly upset as the animal cost $50,000


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## Malc

LiasisUK said:


> He's probably mainly upset as the animal cost $50,000


Thought it was more than that ?


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## Swindinian

Malc said:


> Thought it was more than that ?


Yes, I got the impression it was quite a bit more. And given how much has been spent on importing some of the morph royals, I wouldn’t be surprised if it had been multiples of that figure.

Whatever the risk or potential payoffs, I feel sympathy. 

Although I am not a big fan of albinos or Bels (yet I like piedbalds 🤔), I did like the showcasing of Lilith and enjoy videos which promote king cobras (and other Herps) in a positive inspiring way.

Such a shame for all concerned.

It was a positive move to utilise the vets insights and I hope Kevin continues to invest in wider expertise with decision making.

Andy


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## Jibbajabba

Malc said:


> At the start of the video part of me wondered if the mourning shown was for the snake or the financial hit he has obviously suffered, not only for the rumoured hundreds of thousands of dollars the snake cost him, but the loss of any potential income from any breeding plans that involved lilith..


That was my exact thought. Especially since he has a het lucy too. I mean yes he seems attached, but even his grief isn't about the money at this stage, I am sure it will set in eventually because as you said - the snake surely was a fortune.


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## Jibbajabba

Also in hindsight, he mentioned Lilith was a calmer animal before shame came to him. I wonder if her aggressive demeanour was due to the pain ... But is sad none the less.


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## Liam Sinclair

Just stumbled across this, wanted to clear things up. Did not do it for money at all, money I make from videos is just merely pocket money to pay for my pets. Everyone told me not to do it, friends, family, other channels. Genuinely felt it was the right thing to do, at the end of the day it doesnt matter that it was NERD, my stance on these videos would be the same for anyone posting them. If my friend was doing it id be saying the same to him.

I will also say dozens of channels were messaging me with nerd horror stories, these are channels hundreds of thousands of subscribers in size that see all and hear all. All saying deffo make the video we are all sick of whats happening. Then when i did all were silent. Everybody wants change but nobody wants to be the one to do it.

I posted this in January, the month where everyone says to not bother uploading much because ad revenue plummets post christmas and its not worth it. If it were about money id have posted it at the start of December instead, not when money is the lowest it is all year. I didnt, i repeat messaged NERD on insta, Kevin himself and emailed through their website contact form all december up until I posted the video because it was obvious they were not going to address their actions unless made to. Making £46 quid is not worth the amount of abuse i was going to get, just to show another video I posted made a similar amount. It was never going to make me any more money than usual posting in Jan, did it because it was an issue I cared about. I even said to kevin do whatever off camera but it affects everyone when you display it. If it was about money and maximising views id have plastered Nerd in the title and really gone for the clicks in the month it would have made money.....


Again, not adressed the issue at all, just attacked those who raised it and tried a smokescreen to distract. Suddenly its me hungry for money but no one is saying filming yourself cutting into stuff wasnt for money or views. The surgery videos generated millions more views than they were previously getting and making a hella bit of cash. But when my views jump from 1000 to 9000 its like im the one profiteering here.


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