# Parrot Help



## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

Hi, not posted in this section before but noticed there's a couple of people with a lot of experience with parrots.

I have an 8 year old African Gray, I have had her since she was 10 weeks old, and she is for the most part a lovely bird, in the last couple fo years she has been through a few house changes, new people living in the house, and new animals.

During that time I had less time to spend with her than previous and she has got to be a bit nippy. She isn't nasty, she is happy and loves to talk and sing to you all day, but she isn't at the point of stepping up onto you anymore.

This effects her life as she doesn't get the alone time with me she use to have as now she is difficult to get back in her cage and giving her a tickle could end up in a serious bite from nowhere.

So where do I start? Like I said she use to be such a softy, beofre she reached 2 years old she would falls asleep on her back in your hands, gently licky my finger for hours in her sleep. I want to get her back to being more friendly, willing to be handled and her quality of life will improve.

All advice appreciated.


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

i don't know everything, but i know you need to go back to basics, start with step up and down again, using food & praise as reward. don't make her step up make it her choice, she steps up to get reward. just concentrate on that, then move on to the other stuff. just be with her as though you just got her at 10 weeks.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Ask Zooman I believe he is a bit of a Parrot shrink :2thumb:


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## gecko_steve (May 14, 2008)

I agree PM zooman he is very knowledgeablea about parrots. He should be more than willing to help


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## Anj (Oct 24, 2007)

Hi,

Having had the same problem early this year with my grey, I spoke to Neil Forbes an experienced bird vet.

His suggestion was to take the grey into a strange room (a room that it has never been into before), so the only thing it knows is you, then give the command up / down, as you will be in a room that is strange to the bird, after a while the bird will do this willingly as you are the only thing that is known to the bird as safe..

I did this everyday, lenght of time depended on how long my grey wanted to work.

A favorite treat was given to my grey as and when she did what I asked of her.

It did a long time but it has worked for me, I also had the added problem of my grey is 14.5 yrs old and has a fear of human hands.

Hope this is of some help to you, take your time, it's easy to say but have patience.

Please do not hesitate to pm me, if you feel the need to.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

ive had 3 african greys and i found that when they huff wth you they take ages to come back round, unlike my macaw who will still let you pet her even after her nails trimmed, you take your life and fingers inyour hand doing it but she never bares a grudge , unlike the greys i had, you need to woo her again and re bond, and be carefull not to cheese her off, one of my hated red shirts which i found to my cost , really frindly one day , then i wore a red shirt and she freaked and after that wouldnt have anything to do with me. remember these birds are very intelegent and youve passed her up once in favour of other things , she,ll know this and may never trust you again like she used to .


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Underdog,

Greys can be funny birds! 

As hard as it sounds, try not to scream or shout when your Grey bites you. If they get a reaction, particularly a vocal one, this will reinforce the behaviour. Use her favourite food treat (a sunflower seed is good) to entice her close to you. Before trying to get her to step up onto your hand, let her make her own way out of her cage & use the treats to bring her closer to you & just spend time rebuilding the rapor & relationship. This may well take much time, but it is very important to get her to trust you. When you need to get her back into her cage, again use food. A good tip is to remove her food dish a couple of hours before you plan to let her out. This way, she will be sufficiently peckish to be tempted back to her cage when you want her to by showing her you putting the food dish back in her cage. As other members have said, it is not going to be an overnight thing at all, but will be worth it in the end.

As regards Neil Forbes method of taming a parrot, I must say I disagree with him. His method of taking the bird to a strange room where you are the only familiar thing, is not my style. This method relies on the parrot's fear of the unknown to make it trust you. The parrot is supposed to trust you & look to you for reassurance because it is scared of the unfamiliarity of it's surroundings.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks Shell & Steve! :blush:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

underdog said:


> Hi, not posted in this section before but noticed there's a couple of people with a lot of experience with parrots.
> 
> I have an 8 year old African Gray, I have had her since she was 10 weeks old, and she is for the most part a lovely bird, in the last couple fo years she has been through a few house changes, new people living in the house, and new animals.
> 
> ...


 Several things might have affected this change. Instability and lack of training can be one and then reaching adulthood can be another. People seem to think that their nice hand tame baby will stay that way forever. They won't. When they get hormonal they can get nippy. You have to learn to read his or her body language to avoid being bitten when it is feeling 'antsy'. I recommend you buy a book called 'guide to companion parrot behaviour' by a lady called Mattie Sue Athan which will give youlots of good advice as to how to start training your bird. I believe this is why so many parrots get passed on. People have a cute biddable baby and don't bother to train them, then wonder when they hit puberty, why they have an undisciplined nippy bird.
Did you train her to 'step up' right at the beginning? If so, it won't have forgotten the command, you'll just have to start retraining it with the aid of a perch for it to step up on.
Why does her quality of life have to suffer just because you cannot handle her or tickle her? I have several untame parrots that have a great quality of life even though I don't or am not able to handle them for various reasons. I notice you say 'she', has it been surgically or DNA sexed?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Hi Underdog,
> 
> Greys can be funny birds!
> 
> ...


 I agree on the latter zooman but then Niel Forbes is a vet not a behaviourist. He should stick to curing sick birds and you won't give out vet advice eh :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I agree on the latter zooman but then Niel Forbes is a vet not a behaviourist. He should stick to curing sick birds and you won't give out vet advice eh :lol2:


 Good one Fennie! hehe


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Hi Underdog,
> 
> Greys can be funny birds!
> 
> ...


 being vocal when you are bitten , is deffo a no no . my macaw must of nipped a lot as a baby , coz when she,s sat on my knee and i stop preening her she ,she waits a little while then makes a grab (not hard enuff to hurt tho) for me and shouts OUCH at the top of her voice.:lol2:


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

my last grey Alex was a very spoiled hand reared 5 year old who had learned to bite his doting lady owner just to get some peace from her constant demands on his time , as he got older and wanted to exlore she wanted him sat on her knee being cuddled so he bit her , she stopped wanting cuddles , he was happy doing other things she wasnt so she sold him , he was the most demanding bird ive ever had, much noisier than the macaw i have now and spitefull if he couldnt have his own way, she never trained him to get on a hand so i had a hell of a job , he came round eventually and we became good friends , but my neighbour couldnt stand his screaming , and neither could i on hang over mornings so i sold him to a breeder.......


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

I will try and answer what I can remember was asked 

The bird hasn't been sexed, I call her a she out of habit, nothing more.

She was trained from since I first had her, like I said a break up of a relationship, move of house, change of job etc all changed our lives and times together, so her behaviour has changed as a result of this.

As I said she isn't what I consider to be nasty, I mean I have seen birds that simply can not be approached at all, she is nowhere near that bad (thank god).

I feel it effects her life because when she was younger I felt safe having her sleep on the arm of the sofa while myself and son sat and watched TV, now I worry if my son and her get to close on the off chance she takes a bite (not that she has ever bitten him). If she was easy to put back in her cage when the time came then I wouldn;t have to pre plan her out of cage time so much and could simply let her out when I have a bit of time spare knowing I can quickly put her back in when it's time.

Thanks for all the advice, I will get my baby back to as she wants to be, if she is happy to not be petted and have a full life, then I am fine with that, I will work with her and see if sher wishes to change or not.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

on the subject of not screaming when bitten. I always felt this to be a bleddy daft idea. Whoever wrote it originally should try not screaming when a large parrot has bitten to the bone and is chewing. Flipping daft. I tried hard to follow this for years, tears in my eyes, gasping with the pain and saying nothing until one day, 'Cuppy' my blue fronted amazon nailed me bad when I was reaching in to replace a perch. Without thinking, I let out an ear splitting scream. He dropped my hand and scuttled to the top of his cage looking shocked. Frankly, I don't think he realised that biting humans actually hurt them since no sound was ever made to show that it hurt. I was so angry, I told him off sternly say "you bad bad boy. Don't pinch your mummy. Look (pointing to the blood), ohhh you so bad boy" and play acting so he could understand I said "pinch mummy (pointed to the blood) <loudly> ow ow ow (low growly voice) don't pinch your mummy yo bad boy".
That was about 9 years ago. Now, when I reach in to change his food and water pots and he feels the need to get nasty out of badness, hormones, bad temper or to defend his/her aviary mate, I just say "noooooo" in a low voice and he retreats to a further end of the perch and says "OW OW OW....don't pinch yer mummy you naughty boy....nooooooo......on yer bed....go on....on yer bed....gooood boy....oh you good boy".
He hasn't bitten me since the day I screamed and the "on yer bed" was my telling him to go onto another perch, usually his roosting perch, but in his mind, he knows it means away from my hand.
He also used to bash 7 bells out of his kong in displacement aggression and do the whole "don't bite yer mummy" bit with an added "bash bash bash ohhhh you bad, you are bad, bash bash" which I think he was reanacting with the kong playing the part of himself and him demonstrating that the kong was bad. Of course I didn't bash Cuppy ever but he has no hesistation in using physical violence against the bad birdy kong which he says tried to bite hehehe.
In the wild, in a flock, if one parrot bit another and held on, the victin would scream and thrash about and let the biter know that being bitten hurt. So I think the whole "stay silent" thing is a load of bunkum. If any of the birds manages to nip hard (I tend to avoid biters or tell them to move back before putting my hand in the aviary) I yell loud and the look of shock on their faces as they let go immediately and fly off to another perch, is a picture.
Of course though, don't let an unpredictable parrot near children. I would perhaps look to buy a macaw sized cage and put parrot nice things inside like bundles of twigs, toys, ropes, branches instead of those horrible smooth wooden or plastic perches. That way you know it has space to move about in and lots to occupy it on the times you have your kids over and it has to be kept confined, then let it out when you have the time to pay attention to it. Perhaps it doesn't want to go back because the cage is too small and boring? Turn it into a parrot playground and it may be happier to go back. Personally, I'd never keep a healthy parrot in anything smaller than a macaw sized cage. What are the dimensions of yours incidentally. Dealers used to sell african greys with ferplast sonia cages which are really only large enough for cockatiels and the poor bird wasn't even able to open both wings at the same time when in them (which is a legal requirement).


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

my macaw is also very bad at getting back into her cage, if she dont want to go in she clamps her beak on to the door and will not let go, so to save the arguments , as she allways wins i just leave the door open and she comes and goes as she pleases, she,s better behaved , less noisy , and comes to visit us in the living room if she wants to, she does spend a lot of time in her cage , but not locked in, its her choice now and we are boh happy with that......i know some of you will jump on me for this as i also have 3 cats and 3 dogs , but beleive me , they are all terrified of Oska, and she deffo rules the roost as far as they are concerned.:lol2:


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

the first time Oska bit me , when demanding to be scratched , i was sat with her on my knee and had to answer my mobile , she was infuriated , grabbed the fone and slung it , then bit me on the hand, i shouted out of shock rather than pain as i didnt see it coming, so i stood up very quickly dumping her on the floor , she didnt see that coming and i only had to do it two or three times, before she made the connection, bite daddy , get dumped. now i read her body language she does a sort of dance , rather like stevie wonder , and i now just have to say , you dare . and she calms back down, if i dont read the signs she pretends to bite and screams ouch.......


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> my macaw is also very bad at getting back into her cage, if she dont want to go in she clamps her beak on to the door and will not let go, so to save the arguments , as she allways wins i just leave the door open and she comes and goes as she pleases, she,s better behaved , less noisy , and comes to visit us in the living room if she wants to, she does spend a lot of time in her cage , but not locked in, its her choice now and we are boh happy with that......i know some of you will jump on me for this as i also have 3 cats and 3 dogs , but beleive me , they are all terrified of Oska, and she deffo rules the roost as far as they are concerned.:lol2:


 I wouldn't jump on you. You know your pets. I used to have an african grey who lived completely loose and I also had a cat, plus several dogs in the house as I showed standard poodles at the time. I imagine any sensible cat would be very respectful of a macaw.


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

Her cage is huge, it's not small by any means. She is happy in her cage, if I open the door sometimes she doesn't bother coming out, or she will walk around on her cage but outside then nip back. If I have an hour before work it would be nice to let her out knowing I can out her back 5mins before I have to leave, that's what I meant.

Also I have a boxer and would never risk them in the room together,though it happend once (by mistake) and the dog played follow the leader around the house behind the bird while she told the dog "leave it Jack, away, get away" Boxers aren't the sarpest tool in the box and a bird talking in my voice confused him no end lol

I think I have to accept it's maybe time get bitten a few times until she learns better. But god does it bloody hurt:blush:


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

underdog said:


> Her cage is huge, it's not small by any means. She is happy in her cage, if I open the door sometimes she doesn't bother coming out, or she will walk around on her cage but outside then nip back. If I have an hour before work it would be nice to let her out knowing I can out her back 5mins before I have to leave, that's what I meant.
> 
> Also I have a boxer and would never risk them in the room together,though it happend once (by mistake) and the dog played follow the leader around the house behind the bird while she told the dog "leave it Jack, away, get away" Boxers aren't the sarpest tool in the box and a bird talking in my voice confused him no end lol
> 
> I think I have to accept it's maybe time get bitten a few times until she learns better. But god does it bloody hurt:blush:


 good luck with her , she might just come round, i taught alex and oska not to bite by making it uncomfortable for the if they did, alex would bite sometimes when being petted, so he also got dumped on the floor , you literally with in a split second of her doing it drop your arm down , assuming she,s sat on ya hand that is.they put two and two together very quickly. pm me if you want to know how i stopped alex biting the offered hand to step onto, i,m not gonna say on here coz i,ll be lynched , but its not cruel and dosnt hurt them, just gives a short sharp shock.


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## Anj (Oct 24, 2007)

Hi guys,

I was not putting out a vets advise. It was advise given to me by the vet on which I was passing on.

Neil is a very well know vet all over the world, he has written books and has had input into books on all problems with birds.

There are only two vets in the world with his qualification in birds, so to me he is the best you can get.

I was only trying to help!!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Anj said:


> I was not putting out a vets advise. It was advise given to me by the vet on which I was passing on.


eh? one and the same surely?



> Neil is a very well know vet all over the world, he has written books and has had input into books on all problems with birds.
> 
> There are only two vets in the world with his qualification in birds, so to me he is the best you can get.
> 
> I was only trying to help!!


 I think we all know who Niel Forbes is well those of us 'into' parrots. However, if you regard him as the oracle of all things parrot and the only one with advice worth taking, you are suffering from tunnel vision. There are many parrot 'experts' in the world. I mentioned one who has written lots of great books and of course, there is nothing like good old fashioned experience from people like myself and zoo-man who keep a large number of parrots (in my case around 40) and have done for a lot of years (in my case over 25 years).
The whole point of a forum is that you get lots of input from different folks with different idea so that you get a broader picture instead of taking only one person's view on it and thinking that's the only one which counts.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> eh? one and the same surely?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah hem........what the ferk does it matter where the info came from, fenwoman wind ya neck in , if the info was usefull and correct what does it matter where it came from or who gave it . you need to practise what you preach sometimes, youre being off hand and overly aggressive again for no reason, did the guy say that this info is the only info you need and that this man who ever he is is the only man who knows about parrots , NO he didnt , just coz he,s new dosnt mean you can rip him to shreds for nothing..so stop it. and for your information taking a parrot into an unfamiliar room to make it more intrested in you as you are the only familiar thing to it works with some parrots but not with others i have used this way of taming with renegade hand reared babies and wild caught, it didnt work with the hand reared babes as they had preconceived ideas and had been allowed byowners to learn bad habits, but did very well with the wild caught ones, but obviously only after they are acustomed to you and you want to go a step further with the training. if something is unfamiliar to you , or you dont agree with it , dont diss it str8 off , as you allways seem to do......learn about it first then comment.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> Ah hem........what the ferk does it matter where the info came from, fenwoman wind ya neck in


teeheehee. Isn't that what is called hypocritical?



> , if the info was usefull and correct


 exactly. if it was correct



> what does it matter where it came from or who gave it . you need to practise what you preach sometimes, youre being off hand and overly aggressive


<cough> hypocrite<cough>




> again for no reason, did the guy say that this info is the only info you need and that this man who ever he is is the only man who knows about parrots , NO he didnt , just coz he,s new dosnt mean you can rip him to shreds for nothing..so stop it.


 I think you are being overly aggressive and that's not polite.



> and for your information taking a parrot into an unfamiliar room to make it more intrested in you as you are the only familiar thing to it works with some parrots but not with others i have used this way of taming with renegade hand reared babies and wild caught, it didnt work with the hand reared babes but did very well with the wild caught ones, but obviously only after they are acustomed to you and you want to go a step further with the training. if something is unfamiliar to you , or you dont agree with it , dont diss it str8 off , as you allways seem to do......learn about it first then comment.


 er, if I don't agree with it I should agree with it instead of disagree with it? I take it that's what diss' is short for? Cos that doesn't make any sense at all to me. If I disagree with something I disagree with it, simple. What's to learn about. It's a method I have heard about for years. I disagreed with it then as I do now. You and I have have very different ways of treating our animals as our posts will show. You carry on with your methods but there is no way on earth I would inflict the same on my own animals.
How comes you felt the need to gallop in like a knight on a white charger defending someone who didn't ask you to defend them? Methinks you take too much upon yourself.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> teeheehee. Isn't that what is called hypocritical?
> 
> 
> exactly. if it was correct
> ...


 to diss some one is to disrespect them. and no i,m not being aggresive ,just assertive, (big difference) i cannot abide disrespectfull people , and you my dear are very disrespectful yet you comand respect from every one else. . as for inflicting anything on my animals please enlighten me , if you mean that i dont pussy foot around them and treating them like babies you are so right .they learn respect by not being allowed to make the mistakes that cause them to get into trouble. its no good shutting the stable door after the horse bolted out is it. you like to disrespect every newcomers opinions until they realise who you are coz it makes you feel good .i would never use an electric collar on a dog , ever . unlike you.and i do rattle the dogs if they step out of line , but i never hit them which is what you imply there.and if someone needs defending i,ll do it , and as for the charger he,s very lame at the mo so how could i gallop in on him, perhaps you just dont like being picked up on how disrespectfull you actually are to people , but if you dont like it tough titty coz i,ll do it again and again , i,m not disrespectful to anyone , unless they are disrespectful to me or i think they are giving some poor inocent guy/girl a hard time when they were only trying to help someone. its people like you who stop others from posting on forums like this, which is a shame coz its usually a nice place to be but you do tend to be far too high and mighty where newcomers are comcerned. and for your info ive got 35 years of experience keeping parrots ..and a life times worth of keeping other animals. all of which ive studied closely to see how they tick.........so remember that to dis someone is to disrespect them not disagree with them perhaps if you lived in the real world instead of your own la la universe you,d have known that...


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

denny2 said:


> good luck with her , she might just come round, i taught alex and oska not to bite by making it uncomfortable for the if they did, alex would bite sometimes when being petted, so he also got dumped on the floor , you literally with in a split second of her doing it drop your arm down , assuming she,s sat on ya hand that is.they put two and two together very quickly. pm me if you want to know how i stopped alex biting the offered hand to step onto, i,m not gonna say on here coz i,ll be lynched , but its not cruel and dosnt hurt them, just gives a short sharp shock.


I do not like this method of dumping a biting parrot on the ground. They could break their breast bone. Violence should not be used with parrots. I do not even want to know what the other method was that you used on your other parrot! 

Parrot owners have to accept that parrots will bite! Even that hand-reared cuddly little bundle of feathers will one day bite! This could be for many reasons, but it is part of parrot pwnership. 

I took on a Blue-Fronted Amazon parrot called Lola from a female friend who became allergic to the feather dust. My friend told me that Lola only liked men 7 used to attack her husband. She was also a buggar for not wanting to be put back in her cage. I first brought Lola home 2 years ago. To this day, I have never been bitten by her. By using calm patient training techniques, she is a friendly happy parrot who will step up onto my hand when asked, let me stroke & kiss her head, & will be put back in her cage easily now.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Neil Forbes is an avian vet. I would regard his veterinary advice with the highest respect. However, his advice on behavioural problems is pretty pap! he has written some behaviour articles for Parrots magazine & they were not very good.


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## jjphoenix (Sep 22, 2008)

it does happen, i used to have a blue headed pionus (sp) when i was younger, and i went to a boarding school. my dad wouldnt let him out as regularly as i did and so he used to get nippy, then i would have to spend as much time as possible with him, ahndling him, having him out and around and getting attention off me and me giving him treats to get him back to not being nippy. you need to just smother him with love and interact as much as you possibly can and he'll soon go back to normal


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I do not like this method of dumping a biting parrot on the ground. They could break their breast bone. Violence should not be used with parrots. I do not even want to know what the other method was that you used on your other parrot!
> 
> Parrot owners have to accept that parrots will bite! Even that hand-reared cuddly little bundle of feathers will one day bite! This could be for many reasons, but it is part of parrot pwnership.
> 
> I took on a Blue-Fronted Amazon parrot called Lola from a female friend who became allergic to the feather dust. My friend told me that Lola only liked men 7 used to attack her husband. She was also a buggar for not wanting to be put back in her cage. I first brought Lola home 2 years ago. To this day, I have never been bitten by her. By using calm patient training techniques, she is a friendly happy parrot who will step up onto my hand when asked, let me stroke & kiss her head, & will be put back in her cage easily now.


 theres a masive difference in forcefully dumping a bird on the ground violently , and just dropping your hand and making the perch(you arm or hand an unstable place to be coz it bit you , they cotton on very quickly, the way you are putting it is as if i said to sling the parrot on the floor , obviously you are just wanting to point out the negative, parrots have wings and if the perch becomes unstable for what ever reason they will save them selves by flapping wings and and clinging to the perch arm with their feet and beak, its a case of consequences if they bite the consequence is the perch becomes unstable and they might end up on the floor . the emphasis is on the might , obviously , the parrot is NOT slung to the floor as that could and probably would break the breast bone. parrots are capable of being very nasty and in a home situation the parrot must learn that biting is not acceptable., but each to their own ive never hurt a parrot , made it a tad uncomfortable for a little while as a consequence of bad behaviour, Oska is now very tame and friendly with everyone my 8 year old can hold her now as the parrot has learned that she is not to be spitefull when she wants her own way, it makes me wonder how you,d go about treating a dog that bites, talk to it nice in the hope it wont do it again or give it a consequence for doing it, or put it to sleep, as you know parrots are more than capable of taking off a mans finger, so there fore biteing out of spite is not acceptable ........and not something you should accept as a house pet, just like you wouldnt accept your dog biting you or your child.........Oska is a member of this family and she knows it and she knows that if she bites she just may end up on the floor(not slung to the floor with violence as you are implying ),if she,d been slung i doubt she,d ever trust me but as it happens she seeks me out , and climbs up my leg for petting and even follows me to the toilet, so dumping her on the floor for biteing has done her no harm what so ever , because it was not done violently........you people allways like to see things in the negative, i suppose that comes from all your years of experience and living in the beleif that you are the only people with any knowlege about a given subject...


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Wow Denny over 35 years experiance, you give the impression of being a stroppy teenager


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Wow Denny over 35 years experiance, you give the impression of being a stroppy teenager


 do i , thats a shame ........why coz i stand up for myself . perhaps its how you perceive what ive written , in the negative ..tell me why some people should be allowed to be disrespectfull of someone elses approach to things . maybe coz they are mini meglamaniacs .like ive said before theres more than one way to skin a cat...........once an animal is in the habit of doing something , its very difficult to stop them and biteing is just not acceptable be it by dog, parrot, horse or what ever. they dont just sit and think oh well maybe i,ll not bite today coz he talked to me nice yesterday.they bite each other out of dominance , obviously a bird that bites in defence is a different kettle of fish all together, but spite biting coz it wants to be stroked , and you cant do it at that time as oska used to do , and spite biting coz you wernt tickling the right spot like alex used to do , and biteing coz you want your glasses back off your yorkshire terrier as dexter used to do are not acceptable....and can be dealt with, with out causing physical harm.dexter would have been destroyed by now if i hadnt taken him on nows he,s stopped biting ,coz i made it uncomfortable for him to do it . and it worked. and he aint scared of me either, respectfull as he,d be with another dog , but not scared.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

's OK shell. Denny and I usually get on just fine. For some reason lately I seem to have annoyed her and she's having some digs. I can take it. After all, grown ups can disagree with each other on subjects without ending up hating each other can't they?
Denny's ideas about parrot training (including one so mysterious and possibly cruel that she won't post about it on an open forum ) and about locking dogs in metal cages, are at different ends of the spectrum but we probably have quite a bit in common too and if she takes her head out of her bottom, she'll probably acknowledge this


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> 's OK shell. Denny and I usually get on just fine. For some reason lately I seem to have annoyed her and she's having some digs. I can take it. After all, grown ups can disagree with each other on subjects without ending up hating each other can't they?
> Denny's ideas about parrot training (including one so mysterious and possibly cruel that she won't post about it on an open forum ) and about locking dogs in metal cages, are at different ends of the spectrum but we probably have quite a bit in common too and if she takes her head out of her bottom, she'll probably acknowledge this


lol. that is soooooooo funny. i,m not digging at you all i,m getting at is that as you know yourself you never give anyone a chance , you just plow straight in and tell them they are wrong especially newcomers, thats probably why adamntitch bitched you out about your goats.as far as me being a her . i,m a bloke . i might be gay but i,m not your prissy nancy boy type.as a breeder of dogs yourself you,ll know that most dog breeders lock their dogs up in cages almost 24,7 which i think is appalling, i dont ,my dogs cage was a training tool and is now her bed, what would you rather have a dog in a cage or one that has full run of the house and all the dangers in it , ruby is only caged when i,m not in to supervise her, she is a sneak theif , and once when unsupervised she raided the fridge and ate everything in it then was very poorly for 3 daysthe cage stops her doing that when i,m not into do it. . do you lock your rabbits in cages ?, i guess you must or they would run away , or chew your wiring in the house , how cruel of you you should let it loose to go electrocute itself. same difference with a dog........my head isnt up my bottom and certainly not up yours either as some people on this forums seem to be, yes we may have a lot in common and proably could be friends if you were nicer in your approach to people.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> lol. that is soooooooo funny. i,m not digging at you all i,m getting at is that as you know yourself you never give anyone a chance , you just plow straight in and tell them they are wrong especially newcomers, thats probably why adamntitch bitched you out about your goats.as far as me being a her . i,m a bloke . i might be gay but i,m not your prissy nancy boy type.as a breeder of dogs yourself you,ll know that most dog breeders lock their dogs up in cages almost 24,7 which i think is appalling, i dont ,my dogs cage was a training tool and is now her bed, what would you rather have a dog in a cage or one that has full run of the house and all the dangers in it , ruby is only caged when i,m not in to supervise her, she is a sneak theif , and once when unsupervised she raided the fridge and ate everything in it then was very poorly for 3 daysthe cage stops her doing that when i,m not into do it. . do you lock your rabbits in cages ?, i guess you must or they would run away , or chew your wiring in the house , how cruel of you you should let it loose to go electrocute itself. same difference with a dog........my head isnt up my bottom and certainly not up yours either as some people on this forums seem to be, yes we may have a lot in common and proably could be friends if you were nicer in your approach to pepole.


 Not only have I never locked my dogs in cages Denny but none of the breeders I know have done so either. Any with dogs which they want to confine, put them in kennels and runs as I do the cavaliers cos they are dirty little beggars. If the rabbit was loose in the house 24/7 she wouldn't chew wires either as I had the house rewired and had the sockets put 4 foot up on the walls. Besides which, rabbits live in burrows and are happy in their spacious accommodation. Dogs don't live in burrows.
When my boxer stud dog (Biloran Mr Joe Miller) opened the fridge and let everyone help themself, I went to B&Q and bought child proof catches for it which solved the problem.
My dogs are my companions and I wouldn't have shut my child in a cage either so why them?
As for anyone being up my bottom, I can assure you that nobody is on this forum. If anyone seems to be 'on my side' I doubt they are in reality. What does tend to happen though is that people who I may even have had massive run ins with initially, and even fallen out big time with, have learned that I never mean anything personal. And hopefully they respect my opinion (even if they don't respect me personally).
We are all members of the same forum, we all have similar interests and occasionally someone will fall out with someone else. It isn't and should never be IMO a case of "if you are for her, you are against me" 
Your sexual preferences have no bearing on anything and I for one am totally disinterested in what people do in the privacy of their homes.
I do not solicit your (or anyone's) friendship, nor do I give mine easily. I have lots of aquaintances but only a handful of true friends. It would be nice if we eventually learn to accept each other for who we are and how we speak, but to be honest, I shan't worry too much if we don't. I like plenty of folks on the forum. I can't think of any I dislike, but life has taught me that life's simply too short and too hard to waste emotions on being negative. So, until I tell you otherwise. I actually like you  I just disagree with you occasionally and I don't pussy foot about when I speak. I call a spade a shovel and won't be changing my way of talking. It's what makes me 'fenwoman' after all :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> do i , thats a shame ........why coz i stand up for myself . perhaps its how you perceive what ive written , in the negative ..tell me why some people should be allowed to be disrespectfull of someone elses approach to things . maybe coz they are mini meglamaniacs .like ive said before theres more than one way to skin a cat...........once an animal is in the habit of doing something , its very difficult to stop them and biteing is just not acceptable be it by dog, parrot, horse or what ever. they dont just sit and think oh well maybe i,ll not bite today coz he talked to me nice yesterday.they bite each other out of dominance , obviously a bird that bites in defence is a different kettle of fish all together, but spite biting coz it wants to be stroked , and you cant do it at that time as oska used to do , and spite biting coz you wernt tickling the right spot like alex used to do , and biteing coz you want your glasses back off your yorkshire terrier as dexter used to do are not acceptable....and can be dealt with, with out causing physical harm.dexter would have been destroyed by now if i hadnt taken him on nows he,s stopped biting ,coz i made it uncomfortable for him to do it . and it worked. and he aint scared of me either, respectfull as he,d be with another dog , but not scared.


 pssst. It's '*megalomaniac*' :whistling2:
and actually, dominance theory in birds was discounted some years ago now and parrots don't feel the emotion 'spite' it has no place in a wild bird's life. They react to a situation, that's all. SO if you tickle and they bite it could be that you didn't read body language and realise it was having an 'off day', or you touched a sensitive pin feather or perhaps it is hormonal.
As for the yorkie, different species, different instinct and yes, there is pack heirachy. Telling a human that they cannot have something back is a clear dominance issue which needs a complete change in the way it is kept. Hence my ability to run 13 dogs together of all ages and sizes with no problems, not even on bone day when I tip a sack full of bones on the floor for them to help themselves and if I want to take a bone off any of them, I simply 'claim' the bone and they drop it and let me pick it us as it suddenly became mine. No reqaching into the dogs mouth to wrestle it. I show them that I consider it to be mine and they give it willingly. No force, no battering nothing other than simple pack heirachy. Fascinating stuff it is and something I've studied for decades simply because it interested me.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

denny2 said:


> theres a masive difference in forcefully dumping a bird on the ground violently , and just dropping your hand and making the perch(you arm or hand an unstable place to be coz it bit you , they cotton on very quickly, the way you are putting it is as if i said to sling the parrot on the floor , obviously you are just wanting to point out the negative, parrots have wings and if the perch becomes unstable for what ever reason they will save them selves by flapping wings and and *clinging to the perch arm with their feet and beak*, its a case of consequences if they bite the consequence is the perch becomes unstable and they might end up on the floor . the emphasis is on the might , obviously , the parrot is NOT slung to the floor as that could and probably would break the breast bone. parrots are capable of being very nasty and in a home situation the parrot must learn that biting is not acceptable., but each to their own ive never hurt a parrot , made it a tad uncomfortable for a little while as a consequence of bad behaviour, Oska is now very tame and friendly with everyone my 8 year old can hold her now as the parrot has learned that she is not to be spitefull when she wants her own way, it makes me wonder how you,d go about treating a dog that bites, talk to it nice in the hope it wont do it again or give it a consequence for doing it, or put it to sleep, as you know parrots are more than capable of taking off a mans finger, so there fore biteing out of spite is not acceptable ........and not something you should accept as a house pet, just like you wouldnt accept your dog biting you or your child.........Oska is a member of this family and she knows it and she knows that if she bites she just may end up on the floor(not slung to the floor with violence as you are implying ),if she,d been slung i doubt she,d ever trust me but as it happens she seeks me out , and climbs up my leg for petting and even follows me to the toilet, so dumping her on the floor for biteing has done her no harm what so ever , because it was not done violently........you people allways like to see things in the negative, i suppose that comes from all your years of experience and living in the beleif that you are the only people with any knowlege about a given subject...


Wouldn't this just encourage a bite then?

Parrots do not live in a heirachial society, as dogs do, so dominance in parrots is a myth. And a biting dog does not need forceful handling anymore than a biting parrot does! Both need understanding & patient training.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

denny2 said:


> theres a masive difference in forcefully dumping a bird on the ground violently , and just dropping your hand and making the perch(you arm or hand an unstable place to be coz it bit you , they cotton on very quickly, the way you are putting it is as if i said to sling the parrot on the floor , obviously you are just wanting to point out the negative, parrots have wings and if the perch becomes unstable for what ever reason they will save them selves by flapping wings and and clinging to the perch arm with their feet and beak, its a case of consequences if they bite the consequence is the perch becomes unstable and they might end up on the floor . the emphasis is on the might , obviously , the parrot is NOT slung to the floor as that could and probably would break the breast bone. parrots are capable of being very nasty and in a home situation the parrot must learn that biting is not acceptable., but each to their own ive never hurt a parrot , made it a tad uncomfortable for a little while as a consequence of bad behaviour, Oska is now very tame and friendly with everyone my 8 year old can hold her now as the parrot has learned that she is not to be spitefull when she wants her own way, it makes me wonder how you,d go about treating a dog that bites, talk to it nice in the hope it wont do it again or give it a consequence for doing it, or put it to sleep, as you know parrots are more than capable of taking off a mans finger, so there fore biteing out of spite is not acceptable ........and not something you should accept as a house pet, just like you wouldnt accept your dog biting you or your child.........Oska is a member of this family and she knows it and she knows that if she bites she just may end up on the floor(not slung to the floor with violence as you are implying ),if she,d been slung i doubt she,d ever trust me but as it happens she seeks me out , and climbs up my leg for petting and even follows me to the toilet, so dumping her on the floor for biteing has done her no harm what so ever , because it was not done violently........you people allways like to see things in the negative, *i suppose that comes from all your years of experience and living in the beleif that you are the only people with any knowlege about a given subject...*


I KNOW I am not the only person with knowledge of this subject. Fenwoman, for example, is very knowledgable also! Its just that the training methods I (& Fenwoman) prefer to use are the ones tailored to how a parrot thinks & is naturally wired. You can not use a training technique that stopped your dog from biting on your parrot, as they are two totally different species with totally different natural instincts & lifestyles.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I KNOW I am not the only person with knowledge of this subject. Fenwoman, for example, is very knowledgable also! Its just that the training methods I (& Fenwoman) prefer to use are the ones tailored to how a parrot thinks & is naturally wired. You can not use a training technique that stopped your dog from biting on your parrot, as they are two totally different species with totally different natural instincts & lifestyles.


 i never said i did use the same training method to stop my parrot biting as is did on the dog. i sais it was as unacceptable if not more unacceptable for a parrot to bite because of the damage they can do especially to a child.ide never be able to grab the parrot by the scruff and shake it and growl at it as i did to my yorkie. you peeps only seem to read what you want to beleive to be true. how odd of you to think i had ....for your information , taking a dog by the scruff or the loose skin on the side of its face and giving it a good shake , growling at the same time , works just like it would if another dog had done it, it worked on my overly aggressive bulldog who,d had 6 homes before me,and he lived with me for 5 years before he was so disabled he couldnt walk anymore(another issue) and on my yorkie who was kicked out onto the streets for his aggression, both dogs ,learned under no uncertain terms very quickly who was boss. the human , not them. i cant see how using a normal doggy technique can be cruel. ......is it cruel for ruby to stand over dex and shake him when he,s stepped over her lines in the dominance hierachy, i think not...........this thread is also about who thinks they know best , and is getting boring , this is my last post on the subject.....


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Personally I would not use the scruffing technique on an aggressive dog! Sounds very Ceasar Millan to me! And he, in case anyone hasn't read from my other postings around, I cannot stand!


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Personally I would not use the scruffing technique on an aggressive dog! Sounds very Ceasar Millan to me! And he, in case anyone hasn't read from my other postings around, I cannot stand!


 that , means nothing to me..the end.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

denny2 said:


> that , means nothing to me..the end.


I was likening your scruffing technique to Ceasar Milan's training techniques. He is 'The Dog Whisperer' on TV. He is an a-hole in my opinion! 

When I first got my Galah Cockatoo, Rosie, she was nippy & would bite suddenly out of nowhere. Now, she is a real little daddy's girl! And she loves my partner Clark even more! She was returned to her cage when she bit, & was given treats for being out of her cage & acting nicely around me. She is an absolute love!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Personally I would not use the scruffing technique on an aggressive dog! Sounds very Ceasar Millan to me! And he, in case anyone hasn't read from my other postings around, I cannot stand!


 Lol. I think he is brilliant zooey. Anyone who controls a pack like he does, has my utmost respect. I don't hold with all he does, but in the main, I think he is insightful and has helped countless dogs which might otherwise be deemed 'dangerous' or beyond help. I certainly wouldn't scruff a new dog who didn't know the rules. I don't know if I'd scruff one of my lot anyway but I would and have, help an aggressor down to demonstrate my superiority. No pain involved, just simple bodylanguage which they understand, all the while, me understanding that I still have to control the pack whilst doing it otherwise there is real danger of them 'helping' me to kill the dog I'm holding down. But to scruff a new dog who hasn't learned that I was the boss? I wouldn't.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

i know who ceaser milan is, and it makes no difference to me if you think he,s an arseole. i used the scruffing technique more than 10 years ago on the bulldog , so perhaps he learned it from me (joke) at the time it was the logical thing to do the dog was not one to be trifled with , he would get on the bed and never let anyone on it if he claimed something it was his no one had a choice, then i got him after he bit the guy who,e had him before me, i was in a very difficult position one day and he was standing his ground so i scruffed him , flipped him onto his back and growled real hard, from that moment on his whole attitude changed , not just towards me but towards everyone and thing in the household, talking sweetly and giving treats didnt work he,d had 3 years of that, it was either scruff him or be bitten . i wasnt bitten , he calmed down and wound his neck in and became very docile....he found his place had a leader and was happy....and i never had to hit him once , ever. scruffing works, its natural to dogs so why not. ......you have to be brave mind with 5 stone of raging bulldog in front of you, or stupid one of the two.no coments please.


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## Anj (Oct 24, 2007)

Hi,

I'm not interested in getting into another vocal upset, everyone at the end of the day has their own way of training a parrot / any other animal.

I would like to say, although I am a new member on this site, I'm not new to keeping parrots or any other animals.

At present I own:
blue & gold macaw
greenwing macaw
hahns macaw
galah cockatoo
lesser sulphur cockatoo
african grey
lineolated parakeets
boxer dog
staffy cross
chinese water dragon

I'm by no means an expert in any of them, we all live happy together, and lucky the animals only go to a vet when necessary or for yearly checks.

Without knowing the history behind any animals life I think it is hard to judge what is the best thing to do for them at times.

I send my apologies as reading this I have obviously upset some people on this subject.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> i know who ceaser milan is, and it makes no difference to me if you think he,s an arseole. i used the scruffing technique more than 10 years ago on the bulldog , so perhaps he learned it from me (joke) at the time it was the logical thing to do the dog was not one to be trifled with , he would get on the bed and never let anyone on it if he claimed something it was his no one had a choice, then i got him after he bit the guy who,e had him before me, i was in a very difficult position one day and he was standing his ground so i scruffed him , flipped him onto his back and growled real hard, from that moment on his whole attitude changed , not just towards me but towards everyone and thing in the household, talking sweetly and giving treats didnt work he,d had 3 years of that, it was either scruff him or be bitten . i wasnt bitten , he calmed down and wound his neck in and became very docile....he found his place had a leader and was happy....and i never had to hit him once , ever. scruffing works, its natural to dogs so why not. ......you have to be brave mind with 5 stone of raging bulldog in front of you, or stupid one of the two.no coments please.


 You were very lucky Denny. I would never scruff a strange dog which was aggressive to boot. It could easily have escalate the aggression to a full out attack and battle which would would have lost after being badly bitten. It is natural to dogs to submit to the pack leader they recognise. If a strange dog goes over to another and just scruffs him, the one being scruffed doesn't recognise the the other is superior because it isn't. It is just some random dog. A fight would ensue and one or the other would probably be killed. Nor do I hold with flipping on the back, The whole thing with pack heirachy is that no force is used. The dog submits of it's own accord after he comes to learn who is the boss. Brute force and ignorance as a training method, went out years ago.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Anj said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm not interested in getting into another vocal upset, everyone at the end of the day has their own way of training a parrot / any other animal.
> 
> ...


 beware you might have spelt something wrong they pick you up on that too lol. its baptism by fire here i,m afraid, stick it out its fun :lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Anj said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm not interested in getting into another vocal upset, everyone at the end of the day has their own way of training a parrot / any other animal.
> 
> ...


Anj,

No need to apologise! You have caused no upset. Its just that myself & Fenwoman regard Neil Forbes's behavioural advice as misinformed. he is a very well respected avian vet, & rightly so! But a parrot behaviourist he is not. A far better parrot expert is Rosemary Low!


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> You were very lucky Denny. I would never scruff a strange dog which was aggressive to boot. It could easily have escalate the aggression to a full out attack and battle which would would have lost after being badly bitten. It is natural to dogs to submit to the pack leader they recognise. If a strange dog goes over to another and just scruffs him, the one being scruffed doesn't recognise the the other is superior because it isn't. It is just some random dog. A fight would ensue and one or the other would probably be killed. Nor do I hold with flipping on the back, The whole thing with pack heirachy is that no force is used. The dog submits of it's own accord after he comes to learn who is the boss. Brute force and ignorance as a training method, went out years ago.


 sorry but that is absolute rubish , if you saw my two yard german shepherd bitches slugging it out for dominance you,d know that they are violent, very violent , and what makes you think i didnt know the bulldog i,de known him for weeks as he belonged to a freind of mine, sorry hun you are just slpitting hairs, you posted yourself that you were scared of scruffing in case the rest of the pack got stuck in , which would have ended in violence, come on make your mind up , dogs do not submit of their own accord. my shepherds taught me that one , and once one of the shepherds was out of the picture (rehomed) the other dog a border jack mix started trying to dominate the shepherd , with sad consequences, dogs have pack mentality if you are subserviant you get picked on . and how dare you call me ignorant , you may be "fenwoman" but sorry honey you suck...... big time....


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## Anj (Oct 24, 2007)

denny2 said:


> beware you might have spelt something wrong they pick you up on that too lol. its baptism by fire here i,m afraid, stick it out its fun :lol2:


thank you denny2. I have put this right.

To be truthful I'm only on here for help myself having just taken on the water dragon, I have learnt a lot and people have been very kind with their words.

Thankfully water dragon has settled in well, unfortunately not only has he a new home with me, he is in a new home, not what I wanted but the last owners home for him was far to small.

His eating, moving around even come out to see me, so I don't think I'm doing to badly. Next step is the vet for a good health check, I really have no idea of his age, so any advise on this will be welcome.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Denny my head is not or never will be up anybodys bottom. Fenwoman and I had many clashes together but once you get to know her she speaks a lot of sense.We dont always agree but thats what makes the world go round and slanging matches have now gone out the window. Everybody is entitled to an opinion which is why its called a forum.People ask questions and members give advice it is then up to the individual to make an imformed choice. How boring it would be if we all gave the same answer.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

denny2 said:


> sorry but that is absolute rubish , if you saw my two yard german shepherd bitches slugging it out for dominance you,d know that they are violent, very violent , and what makes you think i didnt know the bulldog i,de known him for weeks as he belonged to a freind of mine, sorry hun you are just slpitting hairs, you posted yourself that you were scared of scruffing in case the rest of the pack got stuck in , which would have ended in violence, come on make your mind up , dogs do not submit of their own accord. my shepherds taught me that one , and once one of the shepherds was out of the picture (rehomed) the other dog a border jack mix started trying to dominate the shepherd , with sad consequences, dogs have pack mentality if you are subserviant you get picked on . and how dare you call me ignorant , you may be "fenwoman" but sorry honey you suck...... big time....


Its ok Fennie, don't cry, hush hush hush.........


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## jasper1 (Apr 15, 2007)

Apologies if this has already been said, I haven't read all the thread...I got bored when the bickering started.

Greys are notorious for bonding with a certain member of the household, normally (but not always) a person of the opposite sex than the bird and they take a long time to get over change. 

Just go back to basics and get "her" to trust you once again.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Its ok Fennie, don't cry, hush hush hush.........


 I can't <sob> help it <sob> Zooey <sniffle> the man (and I use the term loosely) is so wrong on all counts <snuffle snort> and just can't be told <slobber snot snuffle>


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

:lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Bad boy Denny, Bad Bad boy (shakes by scruff and kicks up A:censor:e):lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Denny says......dogs do not jack mix started trying to dominate the shepherd , with sad consequences, dogs have pack mentality if you are subserviant you get picked on.....................................................................................................

My 2 Cavaliers dominate my GSD, Rottie and all the other pack members and thats the way I like it. Whilst they are higher in the pack it keeps them safe from the bigger dogs, my dogs are NEVER left on their own as I always have a dog sitter no matter if its 10 minutes or 2 hours


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Bad boy Denny, Bad Bad boy (shakes by scruff and kicks up A:censor:e):lol2:


<s******s>


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Denny says......dogs do not jack mix started trying to dominate the shepherd , with sad consequences, dogs have pack mentality if you are subserviant you get picked on.....................................................................................................
> 
> My 2 Cavaliers dominate my GSD, Rottie and all the other pack members and thats the way I like it. Whilst they are higher in the pack it keeps them safe from the bigger dogs, my dogs are NEVER left on their own as I always have a dog sitter no matter if its 10 minutes or 2 hours


 That's why you and I can run a pack successfully though. It's when people don't understand how pack heirachy works, and pet and fuss the dog they like best regardless of it's position in the pack, that they may pet and fuss the sweetest but lower down member. Then all hell is let loose as they think they are higher than they are and try to dominate the real higher up one who has to reinfoce dominance with sometimes sad effects like the Jack Russell. Of course Denny will now tell us that he does understand how it goes and that the Jack was the higher dog and that he didn't pet one lower in the heirachy etc.
Odd how it all works for you and I and thousands of others who understand about watching the dogs to see their natural order, then respecting it, when for people like Denny who say they know what they are doing, and that they too know the pack heirachy, yet fights still happen.
You try to offer help and advice based on decades of studying pack heirachy, running a large pack together, and reading up about pack heirachy in wild canids, and still someone wants to tell you that you don't know it or that their dogs evolved differently to everyone elses and don't understand pack rules. Well I guess there are some who just don't want to learn and as I said to my son when he was small, "only really stupid people refuse to learn".


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> That's why you and I can run a pack successfully though. It's when people don't understand how pack heirachy works, and pet and fuss the dog they like best regardless of it's position in the pack, that they may pet and fuss the sweetest but lower down member. Then all hell is let loose as they think they are higher than they are and try to dominate the real higher up one who has to reinfoce dominance with sometimes sad effects like the Jack Russell. Of course Denny will now tell us that he does understand how it goes and that the Jack was the higher dog and that he didn't pet one lower in the heirachy etc.
> Odd how it all works for you and I and thousands of others who understand about watching the dogs to see their natural order, then respecting it, when for people like Denny who say they know what they are doing, and that they too know the pack heirachy, yet fights still happen.
> You try to offer help and advice based on decades of studying pack heirachy, running a large pack together, and reading up about pack heirachy in wild canids, and still someone wants to tell you that you don't know it or that their dogs evolved differently to everyone elses and don't understand pack rules. Well I guess there are some who just don't want to learn and as I said to my son when he was small, "only really stupid people refuse to learn".


 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ very boring you pair of twits, the shepherds were on my stable yard and had lived to gether for 5 years , very peacefully, then one day they decided to hate each other and very nearly killed each other ,I WASNT THERE WHEN IT ALL KICKED OFF NONE OF MY DOGS FIGHT IN THE HOUSE THAT LIVE WITH ME., to pay a dog sitter for 10 mins is just down right silly and in this econimic climate very irresponsible. whats up cant you trust your dogs. by the way i never kick my dogs , or use electric collers. and dont you f.....cking call me stupid. you ignorant moron . i doubt you have all of the animals you say you have fenperson coz you seem to spend a lot of your time dominating this forum , or do your animals go with out being cleaned out unless for a foto , you never seem to spend anytime with them..........


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ very boring you pair of twits, the shepherds were on my stable yard and had lived to gether for 5 years , very peacefully, then one day they decided to hate each other and very nearly killed each other ,I WASNT THERE WHEN IT ALL KICKED OFF NONE OF MY DOGS FIGHT IN THE HOUSE THAT LIVE WITH ME., to pay a dog sitter for 10 mins is just down right silly and in this econimic climate very irresponsible. whats up cant you trust your dogs. by the way i never kick my dogs , or use electric collers. and dont you f.....cking call me stupid. you ignorant moron . i doubt you have all of the animals you say you have fenperson coz you seem to spend a lot of your time dominating this forum , or do your animals go with out being cleaned out unless for a foto , you never seem to spend anytime with them..........


Man are you uptight. You really ought to get a handle on your temper because stress can lead to heart attacks. Makes no odds to me whether you believe or not that I have the animals I have or that they are looked after properly or not. One minute you say you doubt I have them, then in the next admit that you have seen photos of most of them so make your mind up you silly little man. As for spending time with them, no I don't spend 24 hours a day cuddling my livestock or dogs. Why should I? It isn't healthy. And if you reread my post, not anywhere in any sentence did I call you stupid. However if the cap fits............................................ Nor did anyone say that you kicked your dogs or used electric shock collars on them.
As to whether my beasts are cleaned out or not, why not pop over for a visit. Then you can see for yourself.One long standing forum member has visited my home on several occasions but I won't draw her into your silly spitting contest. Personally I have no idea why you are getting yourself into such a state about whether or not I clean my animals out or spend enough time with them or if I actually have them at all. Your obsession with me seems to be getting out of control.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I actually have 12 dogs and its easier to get a dog sitter (friends and family)than to split them. I do trust them under a watchful eye but unfortunately have neighbours so wouldnt like to leave them unattended without a leader. I also have 15 cats that mix freely with the dogs. Maybe I dont look after my animals either as I come on here too or maybe nobody on here looks after any of their animals, including you. I believe their are tablets now that you can take for Anger Management or is that high blood pressure. :whistling2:Not once has anybody been abusive to you so less of the name calling. You are obviously a control freak as now things are not going your way you are having a tantrum. Do grow up Denny this is an open forum and people will always have different opinions but there is no need to throw your dummy out of the pram:lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Now Fenny dear about those imaginary animals:whistling2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Denny where did I mention I pay these people to dog sit:whistling2: They enjoy being part of my pack and I have a list of willing people waiting to be asked


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Denny where did I mention I pay these people to dog sit:whistling2: They enjoy being part of my pack and I have a list of willing people waiting to be asked


 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz so boring ..............i personally couldnt give a dead rats ar se. what you or anyone else does with their dogs , and i dont need anger management , what ever made you think i,de lost my temper. silly person , ya soooooooo funny.. wish my family had noithing better to do than sit my dogs for nothing , you must be a sad lot.now go crawl back under fenpersons under skirts where you seem to feel braver........:flrt:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

You silly, silly man/boy.You cant see further than the end of your own nose. Im so glad my hardworking OH isnt a dictator wannabe like you. Me and Fenny never used to see eye to eye but if you actually listen to her she is a very knowledgable lady. She may call a spade a shovel but at least she never throws her dummy out of her pram..................................Maybe thats because she is an adult unlike you. You make me smile Denny as when I think of you(which to be honest isnt very often) I think of small man syndrome:whistling2: If I need to crawl back under Fennys underskirts you need to crawl back under your rock/stone:lol2: It surely must be past your bedtime now hun so we will continue tomorrow:2thumb:


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Man are you uptight. You really ought to get a handle on your temper because stress can lead to heart attacks. Makes no odds to me whether you believe or not that I have the animals I have or that they are looked after properly or not. One minute you say you doubt I have them, then in the next admit that you have seen photos of most of them so make your mind up you silly little man. As for spending time with them, no I don't spend 24 hours a day cuddling my livestock or dogs. Why should I? It isn't healthy. And if you reread my post, not anywhere in any sentence did I call you stupid. However if the cap fits............................................ Nor did anyone say that you kicked your dogs or used electric shock collars on them.
> As to whether my beasts are cleaned out or not, why not pop over for a visit. Then you can see for yourself.One long standing forum member has visited my home on several occasions but I won't draw her into your silly spitting contest. Personally I have no idea why you are getting yourself into such a state about whether or not I clean my animals out or spend enough time with them or if I actually have them at all. Your obsession with me seems to be getting out of control.


 hey anyone can post pics of animals and claim them to be theirs. and guess what i,m not in a state you just think i am because what you think , is allways right , at least it is in your head, i think you are a lonely person with no life other than what you let people think you have on here .,as for the elctric shock collars i was refering to you . as you stated that you used them in a post about your imaginary goats, which i now think belong to someone else. it was implyed that i kicked my dogs which is slander if i,m not mistaken .as for me being obsessed by you please do not flatter yourself, why do you keep spitting back ? if this is a silly spitting contest , you seem to be the main contender , as you allways pop back with a nasty and sometimes personal retort , or can you not stand not having the last word. So what, you know your stuff, but theres more than your way of doing things and you should learn that you do not have the monopoly on this forum no matter how long you,ve been on it, as you keep reminding me. I,m not the only one that you have cheesed off, and i really cant understand why anyone takes any advice from you or accepts any help because you cant resist your nasty off handed digs at folk. like i said before you suck, so go find a goose egg and suck on that.......my partener and i have laughed our bo...llo...cks off over this for the past few days now and i,m far from angry about any of the crap thats been posted,thats what you interpret, but its far from the truth, now, its getting very boring . so zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz nite nite,


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> You silly, silly man/boy.You cant see further than the end of your own nose. Im so glad my hardworking OH isnt a dictator wannabe like you. Me and Fenny never used to see eye to eye but if you actually listen to her she is a very knowledgable lady. She may call a spade a shovel but at least she never throws her dummy out of her pram..................................Maybe thats because she is an adult unlike you. You make me smile Denny as when I think of you(which to be honest isnt very often) I think of small man syndrome:whistling2: If I need to crawl back under Fennys underskirts you need to crawl back under your rock/stone:lol2: It surely must be past your bedtime now hun so we will continue tomorrow:2thumb:


 hey saddo i couldnt give a monkeys fart what your relationship with fennie has been or is now. and for you to call me names just shows how grown up you arnt ... to you i,m childish , its you slinging the silly girlish insults. gow up ..........go suck and egg too , fennies got loads, a goose egg will fill your mouth quite amply.It.ll give you something to do while thinking up your next silly reply. ive laughed my socks off this week at the two of you and no doubt others have too. and i dont care what others think of me either. xx


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Glad you have found something to brighten your sad lonely life :2thumb:


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Glad you have found something to brighten your sad lonely life :2thumb:


 i,m neither sad or lonely,sarcastic yes , but sad and lonely definatly not. .......thank you for entertaining me for the past few days its been a hoot. .........:flrt:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

denny2 said:


> i really cant understand why anyone takes any advice from you or accepts any help because you cant resist your nasty off handed digs at folk.


Sorry to jump in but honestly, good advice is good advice, irrespective of how pleasant or unpleasant the advisor may be. If I only ever listened to people I liked, I wouldn't have even made it through primary school. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to grit my teeth and listen to people I could cheerfully strangle, just because they were right grrrrrr.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Now Fenny dear about those imaginary animals:whistling2:


 I just wish the mucking out, feeding watering and milking was imaginary too and of course, all that imaginary feed would only cost imaginary money so perhaps I'm rich after all......yippee I'm rich..I'm rich.:mf_dribble::2thumb::lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz so boring ..............i personally couldnt give a dead rats ar se. what you or anyone else does with their dogs , and i dont need anger management , what ever made you think i,de lost my temper. silly person , ya soooooooo funny.. wish my family had noithing better to do than sit my dogs for nothing , you must be a sad lot.now go crawl back under fenpersons under skirts where you seem to feel braver........:flrt:


 mate....you need to see a doctor as I think you have narcolepsy. You keep falling asleep, if that's what the zzzzzzz's mean.
If you couldn't give a rats arse (isn't that illegal?) then why do you avidy read everything we post and feel the urge to respond? Dunno about you but I don't wear skirts. And sad not me. Hardly ever.


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> mate....you need to see a doctor as I think you have narcolepsy. You keep falling asleep, if that's what the zzzzzzz's mean.
> If you couldn't give a rats arse (isn't that illegal?) then why do you avidy read everything we post and feel the urge to respond? Dunno about you but I don't wear skirts. And sad not me. Hardly ever.


 me thinks you do the same as you allways seem to reply . odd that one isnt it ?????


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

denny2 said:


> me thinks you do the same as you allways seem to reply . odd that one isnt it ?????


 But I'm not the one doing zzzzz's and telling everyone I don't give a monkey's fart and a rat's arse etc. If we are so boring and you couldn't give a damn, why do you keep responding? I do so because I am amused.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Quick Fenny get your skirt on I need to hide:whistling2: Did ya know that you and your imaginary animals make me big and brave??:lol2: It must be true coz DenDen says so:lol2: Are you sure your OH isnt laughing at you.:whistling2: Maybe he thinks you are some kind of animals bottom too :blush: I bet you are a bundle of laughs if ya keep falling asleep :whistling2:


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## denny2 (Jul 27, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Quick Fenny get your skirt on I need to hide:whistling2: Did ya know that you and your imaginary animals make me big and brave??:lol2: It must be true coz DenDen says so:lol2: Are you sure your OH isnt laughing at you.:whistling2: Maybe he thinks you are some kind of animals bottom too :blush: I bet you are a bundle of laughs if ya keep falling asleep :whistling2:


 :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2: oooooooo ya so funny
this is beginning to get rather too personal i think i,ll report you both for antagonistic behaviour. jeeze theres nothing worse than a masculine woman with a chip on her shoulder.


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