# King Snake Ban?



## Potatatas

So I just put a deposit down on a kingsnake the other day and really happy about it. The guy that sold it to me said that the sale of certain king snakes is going to be banned soon and was giving me the hard sell, "If you want a king you'd better buy one now or the prices are gunna shoot up when the ban comes in". I'm always pretty skeptical of people when buying something. Plus I didn't need the hard sell as I'd clocked it a while back when I went there for some crickets.


So when I got home I had a quick google and couldn't find anything about this ban. He said it was because kings are an invasive species in certain parts of Europe and there has been an influx of them in the Canary Islands so they are banning them all throughout Europe including UK.


Can anyone tell me if theres any truth to this at all?


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## ian14

No.
It's nonsense. 
This is typical of people half reading something, then misreading it, seeing similar half baked stories on the net and perpetuating it as truth.


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## Salazare Slytherin

I am with Iain, I am very sure if this was a thing keepers and breeders would be talking about it all over the place. I love me a good king snake. :2thumb:

Congrats on your purchase but until evidence reveals otherwise or its widely discussed take it with a grain of salt.


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## colinm

The pet shop owner is correct. 

Spain have proposed that Californian King Snakes , Lampropeltis getula is put on the Invasive Alian Species of Union Concern. This is because of their problem as an invasive species in Gran Canaria. Whether the Latin name has been changed or not or whether it was a different subspecies does not matter. Lampropeltis getula and all subspecies look like they will be on there. It also doesn't matter that they cannot be considered invasive in the UK , it is a Europe wide piece of legislation.

This will put Californian Kingsnskes alongside Racoons and Sliders as prohibited species.

They will be legal to keep as existing specimens but breeding and sale will be illegal. This will be EU wide and although the UK is pulling out of the EU we are still likely to adopt and carry forward their laws for the foreseeable future.

So if you're looking to make big money on a new King Snake morph it probably isn't a good idea but if you just want a non breeding pet it's fine.


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## Thrasops

What Colin said.


We had the following from Dave Perry about the issue:



"Given the comments about the upcoming AAL regulations and that many people seemed unaware it was coming I thought that I would mention this years proposed additions to the EU list of “Species of Concern” under the Invasive Alien Species (IAS) regulations.
Spain has proposed the addition of all of the Lampropeltis getula group to the list, on the basis of the issue of Californian Kingsnakes on the Canary Islands.
The proposals will be reviewed September/October 2018 and imple...mented in spring 2019.
If accepted then this means that as of the implementation date in spring 2019 the following will apply to Californian King Snakes and all of the L.getula sub-species.
1. It will be legal to keep the animals you have until their death, but they may need to be registered.
2. It will be ILLEGAL to:
a. Breed them
b. Sell them
c. Release them (as it is already) 
d. Move them
e. Rehome them
This will apply to the whole of the EU, including the UK, and will not be affected by brexit.
This will obviously affect a lot of keepers across the EU and, while there is no doubt that the Canary island situation is very serious, their invasive potential across the vast majority of the EU is non-existent."






At the time I did raise the point that CALIFORNIA KING SNAKES ARE NO LONGER _LAMPROPELTIS GETULA._


They are_ L. californiae_ and have been since 2009, this has already fallen into common scientific usage and they are listed this way on the Reptile Database:

Pyron, R. Alexander, and Frank T. Burbrink. "Systematics of the Common Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula; Serpentes: Colubridae) and the burden of heritage in taxonomy." Zootaxa 2241.27 (2009): 22-32.
The paper can be found here:

https://doc.uments.com/download/s-s...mMDZUTVKfBG7zcvr8bahljiQv15UzHB9TPrD9phEphgGM


Therefore while I do believe adding California King Snakes to the EU Invasive species act based on an island found to the west of Africa is absolute madness, if it comes to pass it should be pointed out that California King Snakes and ONLY California King Snakes (not Mexican Blacks, Florida, Brook's, Goin's etc.) are invasive on Gran Canaria and therefore there is no basis to add the others to the list."


Unfortunately, Dave came back with this reply:





"This is dealt with in the risk assessment in the following way: Scientific name: Lampropeltis getula (Linnaeus 1766) 
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Family: Colubridae
Genus: Lampropeltis (kingsnakes)
Common names: common kingsnake, Ketten-Königsnatter (Ge), La Culebra Real (Sp), Serpent roi de californie (Fr), Serpente reale (It)

At least seventeen different subspecies of Lampropeltis getula have been described over the last 75 years (Pyron & Burbrink, 2009). More recently, based on mitochondrial DNA-evidence, ecological niche modeling, morphology, and historical precedence, Pyron & Burbrink (2009) promoted five subspecies to species level. This division is however debated (B. Hubbs pers. comm.).

This risk assessment refers to the originally described L. getula Linnaeus 1766 sensu lato, with a native range covering all of the United States and northwestern Mexico, thus including the subspecies L. getula californiae which is considered a valid species by Pyron & Burbrink (2009) and is reported to have a different ecology than L. getula getula which is more bound to water (pers. comm. R. Fisher). On Gran Canaria, different colour varieties were reported: a typical striped form, and striped or banded albino morph types. The individuals used for albino breeding originate from southern California (pers. comm. R. Fisher)."


For anybody interested, the risk assessment and information on the process can be found on the EU Commission website here:

https://circabc.europa.eu/faces/jsp/extension/wai/navigation/container.jsp


What this will mean is that, should the bill pass, ALL _Lampropeltis getula_ - including Goin's, Brook's, Florida, California, Black, Mexican Black, Speckled, Desert and Chain King snakes - will be on it.


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## wilkinss77

So why isn't this a widely known issue being talked about across the hobby? Getula complex kings are among the staple species in the UK hobby, & such a ban will seriously damage the hobby & the UK reptile trade.


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## Thrasops

wilkinss77 said:


> So why isn't this a widely known issue being talked about across the hobby? Getula complex kings are among the staple species in the UK hobby, & such a ban will seriously damage the hobby & the UK reptile trade.


It has been shared on Facebook as far back as May by the IHS, BHS, REPTA, Chris Newman, Hands Off My Hobby, various societies such as Thames and Chiltern, Advancing Herpetological Husbandry (where the above conversation I quoted took place back in July this year), it has been shared on RFUK at least once and lots of other social media groups since at least June.


Problem is most people on Facebook and the hobby in general are too busy arguing over nonsense and miss it. Then they will point fingers and say the societies do nothing.


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## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> It has been shared on Facebook as far back as May by the IHS, BHS, REPTA, Chris Newman, Hands Off My Hobby, various societies such as Thames and Chiltern, Advancing Herpetological Husbandry (where the above conversation I quoted took place back in July this year), it has been shared on RFUK at least once and lots of other social media groups since at least June.
> 
> 
> Problem is most people on Facebook and the hobby in general are too busy arguing over nonsense and miss it. Then they will point fingers and say the societies do nothing.


Lots of us, myself & Zincubus included, never use FB for reptile associated matters because we don't like the 'past posts lost in the clutter' format of FB. But it hasn't been widely discussed on this forum, & this is the first I've heard of it.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

I don't use Facebook so was totally unaware of it - although as I know nowt about Snakes and have no intention of ever having one, I do still read mosts posts on here. Odd given that the first two users to comment after the OP are what I would call 'people in the know' given their experience and contacts etc, but neither of them knew anything.


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## Thrasops

I can only suggest joining your local reptile society or ARG then if this sort of thing is important to you (and it should be).


I rarely have time to attend meets these days due to work, but I keep up with a few of them, very useful for staying abreast of important stuff like this.


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## wilkinss77

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> I don't use Facebook so was totally unaware of it - although as I know nowt about Snakes and have no intention of ever having one, I do still read mosts posts on here. Odd given that the first two users to comment after the OP are what I would call 'people in the know' given their experience and contacts etc, but neither of them knew anything.


I use FB sometimes, but only to catch up with what friends are up to, & never for reptile matters. I bet that if CB was still going, this issue wouldn't have been widely known or discussed there either.


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## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> I can only suggest joining your local reptile society or ARG then if this sort of thing is important to you (and it should be).
> 
> 
> I rarely have time to attend meets these days due to work, but I keep up with a few of them, very useful for staying abreast of important stuff like this.


But what good will it do? All the protests in the world won't stop the ban if it's agreed on by the authorities.


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## Thrasops

wilkinss77 said:


> But what good will it do? All the protests in the world won't stop the ban if it's agreed on by the authorities.


Well for one thing it would be a far more reliable way of you hearing of this kind of thing in the first place, which you were complaining about just moments ago.


If you are going to rely on one forum where virtually nobody posts any more, but not put yourself out across a wider platform so you are in a position to find out about them, interact with the people in the know or put your opinions across, I really don't understand your issue.


This is the problem with a large percentage of the hobby in my opinion. Everybody complains about things like the AAL or IAL _after_ the fact, but very few people are proactive about learning about the issues when they first present themselves.


As it happens, I posted on Facebook about twenty minutes ago asking for an update and got the following reply from Dave Perry just now:


"REPTA sent in a submission presenting the arguments against this proposal. The assessment was delayed for procedural reasons and is now planned for the spring, with implementation by the end of the year if passed. Unfortunately assessment is not always based on facts and some mammal species were recently added that had no history of being invasive in the EU and were only invasive in New Zealand after mass deliberate release to provide a source of fur! The facts are that kings cannot be invasive across the vast majority of the EU but I am not hopeful that the facts on king snakes will be properly taken into account and fear that they will be added to the banned list. This just demonstrates how these regulations are a blunt instrument and do not provide a good solution to IAS assessment. I don’t know if anyone else from the U.K. made a submission but REPTA did not receive any requests for assistance from anyone."


So there you go. REPTA, for all that people like to trash them, at least put together an argument and submitted it.


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## wilkinss77

Thrasops said:


> Well for one thing it would be a far more reliable way of you hearing of this kind of thing in the first place, which you were complaining about just moments ago.
> 
> 
> If you are going to rely on one forum where virtually nobody posts any more, but not put yourself out across a wider platform so you are in a position to find out about them, interact with the people in the know or put your opinions across, I really don't understand your issue.
> 
> 
> This is the problem with a large percentage of the hobby in my opinion. Everybody complains about things like the AAL or IAL _after_ the fact, but very few people are proactive about learning about the issues when they first present themselves.
> 
> 
> As it happens, I posted on Facebook about twenty minutes ago asking for an update and got the following reply from Dave Perry just now:
> 
> 
> "REPTA sent in a submission presenting the arguments against this proposal. The assessment was delayed for procedural reasons and is now planned for the spring, with implementation by the end of the year if passed. Unfortunately assessment is not always based on facts and some mammal species were recently added that had no history of being invasive in the EU and were only invasive in New Zealand after mass deliberate release to provide a source of fur! The facts are that kings cannot be invasive across the vast majority of the EU but I am not hopeful that the facts on king snakes will be properly taken into account and fear that they will be added to the banned list. This just demonstrates how these regulations are a blunt instrument and do not provide a good solution to IAS assessment. I don’t know if anyone else from the U.K. made a submission but REPTA did not receive any requests for assistance from anyone."
> 
> 
> So there you go. REPTA, for all that people like to trash them, at least put together an argument and submitted it.


Fair point. But as Clare said, Ian14 & Dixon are 'in the know' & might even belong to reptile societies, but they knew nothing about it.


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## Potatatas

Glad I asked now. I googled and nothing came up at all for the EU. Thought this info would have been all over the place.



Although I just googled using the scientific name and found info straight away... Points to using proper names again.


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## Thrasops

For anybody interested, the joint response from REPTA, OFI, EPO and others against the IAS proposal listing of _Lampropeltis getula _can be found here:





https://www.dght.de/files/web/news/...ing/jointResponseLampropeltisgetula_Final.pdf


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## Salazare Slytherin

wilkinss77 said:


> Fair point. But as Clare said, Ian14 & Dixon are 'in the know' & might even belong to reptile societies, but they knew nothing about it.


Little about it has been mentioned at the few meets I have attended this year but admittedly I don’t go to many all that often any more. (More a transport issue than anything. It has not hugely been raised or discusses among people at my end either to be honest but that could just be a mere reflection of the points raised by Francis. 

I think for a lot of us, we have had the scare of banns before and then the confusion perpetuated around on forums like this tends to invoke fear, when in reality the past has shown nothing has happened here so I do think there is that issue where people (counting myself) switch myself off to the politics surrounding the hobby unless it directly effects me. All we can do here is wait and see what happens. 

As it happens, we have all just found out just now using this forum. 

While I am on a huge numnber of reptile groups, truth is, I use primarily only 3 of them (all iguana grounded) unless I happen to see things come up on my newsfeed, or visit RFUK on there maybe 3 x a year now, I miss a hell of a lot because 

1. I don’t really have the time.
2. Long since learned to ignore about 90% of what is said. 
3. Sick of the extremisim on both sides of it. 

I liked the forum the way it was years ago. For all the reasons you described, I found it easier, on fb, there is a lot more to try and keep up with instead of if all being clustered into a spaxe of common ground anyways. 

Hope that clarifies how it escaped my radar. I suppose it makes sense to me though, if you keep king snakes, you would presumably be on a king snake group Or some specific forum for them? or at least checking things every so often. But its by the by. Live and learn. 

I currently don’t keep king snakes, at best I would not mind some mexican blacks, my last one died earlier in the year and I have no intent to replace. (Finding myself more attracted to other species these days) :2thumb:


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## wilkinss77

More people need to visit this thread and take on board the threat to our hobby that this proposal presents. Even if you don't keep kings, think about it- if those who want to implement this ban think that kings are invasive, what about North American ratsnakes, including corns? They are even less exacting about their environment, so won't they be next in the firing line? And if that happens, you might as well say goodbye to the snake side of the UK hobby, because the only easily available snakes of manageable size for the average keeper will be hogs and royals.


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## Oh How Original

I can sort of see both sides of the coin (please don't jump down my throat too soon)
On the one hand you've got the good keepers who look after there animals properly, on the other hand, how many reptile shops have sold a snake including Kings to people with absolutely no knowledge just for a sale?
I speak ironically here because when I first started years ago, my very first snake was a King, I was sold her with a 'starter' set up that didn't have a thermostat, I thought I had some knowledge of snakes but I admit to the mistake of believeing what the shop keeper said about thermostats not being needed on smaller heat mats (which seems to be a more common story now than back then)
I can't imagine those who already own them will have them removed either, I'm sure it'll only effect new sales.
Plus, it won't stop private breeders either, shops will have to abide by it, but private breeders most probably won't.
If you got found out it wouldn't be hard to say you put the male in with the female for cleaning purposes and you suddenly got some eggs.
I don't think it'll exactly massively damage the hobby in itself... I can't see it actually happening, I've heard rumours of stuff like this before, mainly people talking in shops and things, but nothings ever come of it.
I'm all for supporting the hobby, but I do also think too many bad things happen to innocent animals thanks to overbreeding of some of the 'cheaper' (hate to use that word) species of snakes.
I think a 12 month ban on shops selling a lot of animals would be a good thing for the hobby myself, it would weed out some of the 5 minute experts and people who think they're "hard" for owning a snake.
It might cut down on the overbreeding as well.


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## wilkinss77

Oh How Original said:


> I can sort of see both sides of the coin (please don't jump down my throat too soon)
> On the one hand you've got the good keepers who look after there animals properly, on the other hand, how many reptile shops have sold a snake including Kings to people with absolutely no knowledge just for a sale?
> I speak ironically here because when I first started years ago, my very first snake was a King, I was sold her with a 'starter' set up that didn't have a thermostat, I thought I had some knowledge of snakes but I admit to the mistake of believeing what the shop keeper said about thermostats not being needed on smaller heat mats (which seems to be a more common story now than back then)
> I can't imagine those who already own them will have them removed either, I'm sure it'll only effect new sales.
> Plus, it won't stop private breeders either, shops will have to abide by it, but private breeders most probably won't.
> If you got found out it wouldn't be hard to say you put the male in with the female for cleaning purposes and you suddenly got some eggs.
> I don't think it'll exactly massively damage the hobby in itself... I can't see it actually happening, I've heard rumours of stuff like this before, mainly people talking in shops and things, but nothings ever come of it.
> I'm all for supporting the hobby, but I do also think too many bad things happen to innocent animals thanks to overbreeding of some of the 'cheaper' (hate to use that word) species of snakes.
> I think a 12 month ban on shops selling a lot of animals would be a good thing for the hobby myself, it would weed out some of the 5 minute experts and people who think they're "hard" for owning a snake.
> It might cut down on the overbreeding as well.


It will indeed be a ban on breeding and selling them and not a ban on keeping ones you already have, as Thrasops has already explained. But kings are a reptile shop staple, so that will seriously limit the scope of what the shops can offer. Moreso if North American ratsnakes get added to the list on the same grounds as kings.


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## colinm

What no one has mentioned is the fact that these King Snakes are invasive in Gran Canaria. If you think about it the Canary Islands are a chain of sub tropical islands. I would suggest that most of the species kept in the hobby could be invasive there. There is no way that they would be invasive in Northern Europe.

This really highlights the problem with this legislation being Europe wide. Let's hope that those with an anti reptile keeping agenda don't push for more species to be included on the basis that they could be invasive in the Canaries.


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## Oh How Original

wilkinss77 said:


> It will indeed be a ban on breeding and selling them and not a ban on keeping ones you already have, as Thrasops has already explained. But kings are a reptile shop staple, so that will seriously limit the scope of what the shops can offer. Moreso if North American ratsnakes get added to the list on the same grounds as kings.


I must admit, I've not found that with shops around my area.
In fact very few of them even have Kings, let alone have them as a staple.
It will no doubt differ from place to place, but Boas and Carpets are more popular in the ones I visit, and obviously corns.
I still think private breeders will breed them quietly anyway, it won't be a case of we'll never see another.
A lot of shops are adding the nails to the coffin IMO with bad advice, poorly kept animals and employing idiots.
Although I will say the one I visit most is very good called Coast to Coast in Darlington, the website can be a farce to navigate, but it's a very well kept shop with good staff and healthy animals.
Others could learn from it.


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## wilkinss77

colinm said:


> What no one has mentioned is the fact that these King Snakes are invasive in Gran Canaria. If you think about it the Canary Islands are a chain of sub tropical islands. I would suggest that most of the species kept in the hobby could be invasive there. There is no way that they would be invasive in Northern Europe.
> 
> This really highlights the problem with this legislation being Europe wide. Let's hope that those with an anti reptile keeping agenda don't push for more species to be included on the basis that they could be invasive in the Canaries.


I mentioned it indirectly in my last two posts with my concern that North American ratsnakes could be next in the firing line for the same reason as the Kings.


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## Paul F

I agree with the points you both make on this one.
Ironically, kings have been very much out of favour around here for a good few years (well strike that, everything bar corns and royals :whistling2 but there seems to have been a slight resurgence in old school colubrids appearing in the past year or so.
Maybe they'll suddenly come back into fashion? I hope so. :lol2:


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## Oh How Original

I still personally like Kings, I don't know if I'd own another, but I still like them, my first ever snake as I said was a King, I do hope she's still doing well, sadly the chap who got her from me hasn't been on here for several years.
Must admit I like most snakes to be fair, including rats and corns.
In fact I saw an advert for some Bamboo rat snakes from ages ago on here, I forget who it was now, bright red with two perfect black lines down their bodies.
If I'd seen those in a shop while recently looking for a new snake, I'd have bought one, they look awesome!


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## Salazare Slytherin

Oh How Original said:


> I still personally like Kings, I don't know if I'd own another, but I still like them, my first ever snake as I said was a King, I do hope she's still doing well, sadly the chap who got her from me hasn't been on here for several years.
> Must admit I like most snakes to be fair, including rats and corns.
> In fact I saw an advert for some Bamboo rat snakes from ages ago on here, I forget who it was now, bright red with two perfect black lines down their bodies.
> If I'd seen those in a shop while recently looking for a new snake, I'd have bought one, they look awesome!


I have had the pleasure of owning my fair share of kings over the years, as said my last died earlier this year, I used to call them crazy snakes for there strong feeding response even on themselves, they do rock, I find it a possible shame that future keepers may not be able to experience the same as we have though, but that has yet to be eatablished, before we all tie ourselves up in knots, maybe we should just see what happens.

I think if it began to look like a serious threat to the hobby there is enough expertise to lean some weight against the possibility, and with corns and rats, almost every snake collection has at least one of those, across all of Europe, I doubt that will go down well. 

:2thumb:


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## Oh How Original

Yep I don't think we need to worry immediately.
In fact I don't think we need to worry too much at all.
They threaten us with this stuff, probably to try and stop people flooding the market with 'em.
Although why Kings all of a sudden I'm not sure.
Like you say, corns are such a staple and IMO always will be, they're probably the most related snake in the hobby, I don't think that would ever happen either.


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## Salazare Slytherin

Oh How Original said:


> Yep I don't think we need to worry immediately.
> In fact I don't think we need to worry too much at all.
> They threaten us with this stuff, probably to try and stop people flooding the market with 'em.
> Although why Kings all of a sudden I'm not sure.
> Like you say, corns are such a staple and IMO always will be, they're probably the most related snake in the hobby, I don't think that would ever happen either.


In fairness, there are plenty of species I would love to see restrictions happen on, maybe I am biased, but animal welfare law means shit all here in the UK, I have done rescue for a long time and volunteered at others for many years, I still see some of the most horrific things one would ever see with no prosecutions taking place and a huge amount of expense for us. 

Some species I would like to see the trade attempt to regulate itself with are. 

Iguanas. (I have personally had over 100 cross my door) and many of them were kept in horrific conditions. I am again not saying my enclosures are exactly the standard I have in mind either but were miles and miles better to the enclosures they came in. “Dog crates, rabbit hutches, parrot cages! 

Burmese pythons, I have had a few, I was confident enough in my care but could never justify the action of housing a 4ft lizard in a larger viv than a 12ft snake! I was fortunate enough to know the right people who could provide better space than I could. Still, they are widely sold, unregulated, and kept in poor conditions. Heck I am not sure I could even justify having a 12ft snake n my largest iguana viv at a 8x8x5 with 250ft of utiliseable surface area. 

Savannah monitors, man I have had my damn share of those and I aint gonna lie! I have always struggled to provide them with that depth and additional heat, one of the worst cases I seem was one that was fed sausages primarily! Yes sausages, and heck, even the majority of keepers who do have the means to provide it rarely do! There are far more appropriat species to keep than savs for new keepers imo. 

Corns I have a mixed opinion on, as I know they end up in rescue a lot but in my exp most have been accidental escapees, although many are never claimed, they are hardy and very forgiving of basic care for long periods of time. 

I would have no issue whatsoever seeing the former three have tigher regulations imposed upon them or who can acquire them. Again its just my opinion on that. I am not saying thy should be impossible to keep, but it frustrates me somewhat at the fact anyon can buy them. 

In all my years in honesty I have seen 2 prosecutions take place and that has only been with the RSPCA, the general public think they are the bees knees, but in actuality, when they are calles, they are dropped off to the places I have worked, I have also fostered a fair few iguanas from them. 

As far as King snakes go. Meh, I have seen them in rescue but no where near as much as the ones I have listed. 

Again just my opinion on this and I judge no one rsscuing a burm who is onlu doing there best, but where are all these tremendous enclousures I hear so much about?


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## colinm

No, that's not the reason. It's because there are thousands wild on the Spanish island of Gran Canaria eating the native wildlife. So the breeding and sale etc will be prohibited EU wide. Hence Wilkins comments about Corn Snakes as they could easily be invasive in Southern Europe.

The hobby doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. It's about protecting the native wildlife. 

Where the legislation falls down is what could be invasive in Spain won't be in Sweden but that doesn't matter as it covers the whole of the EU.


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## Oh How Original

Absolutely agree, I personally don't think shops should be allowed to sell retics and burms at all, because they aren't strict enough on who they sell to and I know some have been known to have a clutch of 50+ eggs, there is no way they will care more about finding proper homes for them than they will about all the space they're taking up, the man hours, the heating and the feeding.
That's in one sense where these big breeding facilities are probably a hair better, places like BHB for example, if they are overrun with babies, you know they have the spaces to take care of them and don't sell retics or burms to just anyone, they actually vet people properly who try to buy a snake such as that.
I still think most snakes are overbred personally, lizards and such I'm really not too 'up' on so I couldn't comment, but I think too many breeders just want the money, they don't care about the animals at all.
All this stuff can't help our case when it comes to situations such as banning etc...


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## Thrasops

colinm said:


> What no one has mentioned is the fact that these King Snakes are invasive in Gran Canaria. If you think about it the Canary Islands are a chain of sub tropical islands. I would suggest that most of the species kept in the hobby could be invasive there. There is no way that they would be invasive in Northern Europe.
> 
> This really highlights the problem with this legislation being Europe wide. Let's hope that those with an anti reptile keeping agenda don't push for more species to be included on the basis that they could be invasive in the Canaries.





colinm said:


> No, that's not the reason. It's because there are thousands wild on the Spanish island of Gran Canaria eating the native wildlife. So the breeding and sale etc will be prohibited EU wide. Hence Wilkins comments about Corn Snakes as they could easily be invasive in Southern Europe.
> 
> The hobby doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. It's about protecting the native wildlife.
> 
> Where the legislation falls down is what could be invasive in Spain won't be in Sweden but that doesn't matter as it covers the whole of the EU.


The other thing that is important about the issue on Gran Canaria is that there are no native snakes there. Not only does this mean that the invasive have no competition from local species that would probably outcompete them elsewhere, but the prey animals (Gallotia lizards and Chalcides skinks, which are endemic to the islands) will have evolved no specific response to deal with predation by snakes.

We know this is an issue because the same thing happened on Guam; the local lizards - even species not endemic and found on nearby islands that DID hold native populations of snakes - had evolved no specific defence against them and so the Brown Tree snakes were able to easily catch and eat them. House geckos for example on other islands respond to encountering a snake by dropping off a wall or tree. The ones on Guam do not do this. This has meant that local species have been diminished or extirpated, and other non-native species of lizard like Green Anoles and Carlia skinks, which DO have the specific response to encountering snakes, have done better (meaning they fill the vacant niche and outcompete the already endangered local lizards).

This would not happen almost anywhere else in the Mediterranean as snakes occur on most islands. It certainly would not be the same problem on the mainland.


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## Salazare Slytherin

Purely out of curiosity, what plans are in place to help the Island? is it right in thinking they would be culled? Collected up or moved, or egg laying sights destroyed even? Round ups? Etc. Honestly until today I never really knew about it. 

Is there a place for collection and reintroducing them to the trade/zoos etc.


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## Thrasops

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Purely out of curiosity, what plans are in place to help the Island? is it right in thinking they would be culled? Collected up or moved, or egg laying sights destroyed even? Round ups? Etc. Honestly until today I never really knew about it.
> 
> Is there a place for collection and reintroducing them to the trade/zoos etc.


There has been a project to capture, collect and euthanise the snakes since at least 2007, I am not sure it is having much effect. I think the official number of snakes caught in a four year period was over 1050, mainly by just catching them by hand. But they are still spreading and are being found outside the original population localities.

The problem is there are not all that many examples of truly invasive snakes to learn from, but the ones that are (for example Brown Tree Snakes on Guam or the Taiwanese Habu on Okinawa, and more recently Burmese Pythons in Florida) can be an extreme pain to get rid of for many reasons - snakes tend to be secretive and hard to locate in numbers, traps do not often work efficiently for them, they can get into all sorts of inaccessible places and there isn't really a feasible way to poison them (plans of air dropping thousands of poisoned mice notwithstanding).

I was on Guam about twenty years ago and the snakes were the subject of a research project I did, the effect on the local wildlife and even economy was absolutely staggering and there have been all sorts of measures attempted to try and control the snakes... none of which worked well.

The same is true on Gran Canaria, none of the traps that have been tried works particularly well, although they are using flat boards and sun traps to catch more snakes by creating artificial hiding places for them that can be flipped.

On Gran Canaria there have been several research projects undertaken into the populations there, finding that there are at least two distinct populations of King snake (probably from separate introductions) that vary in size, reproductive ability, primary prey and morphology. One population has been found to be a more successful and significant threat than the other so has been targeted more.


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## Thrasops

Just had a message from Dave Perry over on _Advancing Herpetological Husbandry_:

'I'm not sure how many people are aware that the King Snake (_Lampropeltis getula_) and all its sub species (of whatever method of classification you choose this week) have once again been proposed for addition to the EU wide list of species of concern as an Invasive Alien Species. It was proposed a year or so ago, which was withdrawn, and the risk assessment has now been modified and re-submitted. It's with the scientific forum now for assessment.'


----------



## ian14

Thrasops said:


> Just had a message from Dave Perry over on _Advancing Herpetological Husbandry_:
> 
> 'I'm not sure how many people are aware that the King Snake (_Lampropeltis getula_) and all its sub species (of whatever method of classification you choose this week) have once again been proposed for addition to the EU wide list of species of concern as an Invasive Alien Species. It was proposed a year or so ago, which was withdrawn, and the risk assessment has now been modified and re-submitted. It's with the scientific forum now for assessment.'


A concern for EU keepers however I cannot see that, in the highly unlikely event the EU banned the species, that it would be implemented here too. 
I cannot see how anything could possibly change from the previous assessment.


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## Thrasops

I too think it is unlikely if any common sense is applied at all. But... we will see.


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## davemoths

ian14 said:


> A concern for EU keepers however I cannot see that, in the highly unlikely event the EU banned the species, that it would be implemented here too.
> I cannot see how anything could possibly change from the previous assessment.


The potential listing of Kingsnakes (L.getula Sp & SSp) should be very concerning to UK keepers. In the event that this listing goes ahead and EU wide restrictions are implemented then these will apply to the UK in the same way as sliders, raccon dogs and so on are restricted. It is true that common sense tells you that an EU wide restriction does not make sense, and you hope that the IAS scientific forum sees this and makes a recommendation not to list. The decision though will be made on the basis of the risk assessment and responses that have been received. Had REPTA, FBH, BNA, EPO and so on not responded then there would be no counter arguments to the risk assessment. We are lucky in that the UK team is very balanced and looks to science and evidence to guide decisions, something that may not necessarily be so evident in other member states and in the future the UK representatives may not even be at the meetings. Hopefully common sense will win the day, but we should not assume this will be the case.


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## Malc

Not really wanting to bring politics into this, but maybe if the government had acted quickly on the vote three years ago and we had left the EU this may have less of an impact on the UK then people are predicting :whistling2:

On a serious note, (and I can't be bothered to read through the complete thread, especially as I don't keep king snakes) how would any ban be policed? I presume its a ban on trade not keeping them?

It seems this argument over "banning" kings has been going on as long as it's taken the UK government to sort out Brexit ! :whistling2:


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## davemoths

Malc said:


> Not really wanting to bring politics into this, but maybe if the government had acted quickly on the vote three years ago and we had left the EU this may have less of an impact on the UK then people are predicting :whistling2:
> 
> On a serious note, (and I can't be bothered to read through the complete thread, especially as I don't keep king snakes) how would any ban be policed? I presume its a ban on trade not keeping them?
> 
> It seems this argument over "banning" kings has been going on as long as it's taken the UK government to sort out Brexit ! :whistling2:


When/If (whatever) Brexit happens the EU laws pass into UK law, so in or out the rules will apply. 

Policing any restrictions is a whole new area, and is one of the arguments for not applying restrictions on such a popular species; how the hell do you police it? But, breeding would be restricted so if you had youngsters in a few years then you have obviously not complied!

The Kingsnake RA was first proposed last year so not as old as Brexit


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## Malc

davemoths said:


> When/If (whatever) Brexit happens the EU laws pass into UK law, so in or out the rules will apply.
> 
> Policing any restrictions is a whole new area, and is one of the arguments for not applying restrictions on such a popular species; how the hell do you police it? But, breeding would be restricted so if you had youngsters in a few years then you have obviously not complied!
> 
> The Kingsnake RA was first proposed last year so not as old as Brexit


The issue of the Kingsnake problem first came to light back in the 1990's


> The first indications of the snake’s presence on the island date back to 1998, although the naturalisation of the populations was not observed until 2004. It is currently present in two main large nuclei. Given the species's capacity for adaptation and acclimatisation, it is likely to spread to the rest of the island.


From this website http://ec.europa.eu/environment/life/project/Projects/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.dspPage&n_proj_id=4057 which appears to be the official organisation that was set up with over one million euro for a project to try and eradicate the snakes between 2011 and 2015... 

Whilst the bill put forward to ban them in the EU (which IMO should only be in the countries that are already effected - aka Spain and the Canary Islands) may be recent, legislation and projects such as the one linked to have been ongoing a lot longer.... (although it feels Brexit has been longer to sort out  )

Again, I'm no politician, but there has been some discussion as to whether the UK will fall under this legislation. There is an agreement that existing laws in place will remain effective for several years, but the area is grey around legislation passed by the EU post article 50 submission - I could be wrong though, as I said I'm no politician


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## davemoths

Malc said:


> The issue of the Kingsnake problem first came to light back in the 1990's
> 
> 
> From this website http://ec.europa.eu/environment/life/project/Projects/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.dspPage&n_proj_id=4057 which appears to be the official organisation that was set up with over one million euro for a project to try and eradicate the snakes between 2011 and 2015...
> 
> Whilst the bill put forward to ban them in the EU (which IMO should only be in the countries that are already effected - aka Spain and the Canary Islands) may be recent, legislation and projects such as the one linked to have been ongoing a lot longer.... (although it feels Brexit has been longer to sort out  )
> 
> Again, I'm no politician, but there has been some discussion as to whether the UK will fall under this legislation. There is an agreement that existing laws in place will remain effective for several years, but the area is grey around legislation passed by the EU post article 50 submission - I could be wrong though, as I said I'm no politician


Yes, the issue on the Canaries has been known about for ages, and there has been a lot of money spent trying to eradicate them. I rather suspect quite a lot of that went to people to do lots of nice research for papers and less to actually getting rid of them, But, then I am probably just old and cynical. 

The current proposal is part of the Invasive Alien Species regulations which were put into place in 2014 (Sometime around then anyhow). Species added are not done by enacting new legislation, but are a product of the process of existing legislation so technically will be applied after we leave as it is now. Post Brexit (assuming that ever happens) the UK will hopefully take the view of applying regulation to species that actually could be a problem here. I think that IAS will not be top of the list of "things to sort out" though. 

Anyway for now we just have to wait and see what the scientific forum proposes. Fingers crossed.


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## colinm

Anyone who keeps Kingsnakes should take a look at this and reply. It is looking more and more likely that they will be added to the European Invasive Species legislation. The full survey is on the FBH page on Facebook. Time is of the essence as all the information needs to be collated by Friday this week.

FBH survey - Kingsnakes
FBH Survey - Kingsnakes 
Private keepers and businesses only (for businesses, please only respond for animals that you keep, i.e. not those that are for sale).

Kingsnakes, Lampropeltis getula and all sub-species, are being assessed by the EU Invasive Alien Species Scientific Forum. The Federation of British Herpetologists (FBH) is gathering evidence on the status of the species and sub-species in captivity in the primarily the UK, but also in the EU and the rest of the world 

If you keep any of the Lampropeltis getula group 

Californian Kingsnake
Florida Kingsnake
Common/Eastern Kingsnake 
Speckled Kingsnake 
(Mexican) Black Kingsnake 
Black Desert Kingsnake 
Desert Kingsnake
Outer Banks Kingsnake
Brooks Kingsnake 

please could you answer the below questions. [This is the classification of Kingsnakes as used on the risk assessment.]
1. What is your country of residence?
UK
Other EU country
Non-EU Country
2. How many kingsnakes of the Lampropeltis getula group do you keep?
1
2-4
5-9
10-19
20+
3. Which sub-species do you keep? (Names as used on the risk assessment. **indicates species not on the risk assessment.) Tick all that apply.
Californian Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula californiae
Florida Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula floridana
Common/Eastern Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula getula
Speckled Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
Black Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula *****
(Mexican) Black Desert Kingsnake - L. getula nigrita
Desert Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula splendida
Outer Banks Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula sticticeps
Brooks Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula brooksi **
Unknown
Other:
4. Have you got any kingsnakes in the following age categories? (tick all that apply)
Less than 1 year
1-3 years
4-6 years
7-10 years
11-15 years
16 years and over
Unknown age
5. Have you bred any of the above species of kingsnakes in the past 3 years, or do you plan to breed them in the future?
Yes
No
Unsure
6. In the event of Kingsnake being listed on the IAS regulations and becoming illegal to move, breed or sell, what would you do with your animals?
Keep until it dies but not breed it
Sell before the regulations are enforced
Have the animal euthanized
Donate the animal to a rescue centre
Release it into the wild
Other:
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Google


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## Crablet

The Federation of British Herpetologists (FBH) understands that the Kingsnake Risk Assessment has passed the EU Invasive Alien Species Scientific Forum review and will progress to the EU Invasive Alien Species Management Committee for a vote on weather a ban on Lampropeltis getula sub species should be implemented. 

The FBH are gathering evidence on the status of the species and sub-species kept privately in captivity, focused on but not limited to the UK, and we will submit our findings to the IAS Management Committee before the vote in mid December.

If you keep kingsnakes, please could you complete the short survey link below and share in as many groups and forums as possible. 
Responses received by midday Friday 6th December will help us provide evidence in our response. 


https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1qAYDuSsXT3XQ-pEF1AEL-w4gW7FKhPOHDIRE9EvN6-4/edit?usp=sharing


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## rossiriley

colinm said:


> The pet shop owner is correct.
> 
> Spain have proposed that Californian King Snakes , Lampropeltis getula is put on the Invasive Alian Species of Union Concern. This is because of their problem as an invasive species in Gran Canaria. Whether the Latin name has been changed or not or whether it was a different subspecies does not matter. Lampropeltis getula and all subspecies look like they will be on there. It also doesn't matter that they cannot be considered invasive in the UK , it is a Europe wide piece of legislation.
> 
> This will put Californian Kingsnskes alongside Racoons and Sliders as prohibited species.
> 
> They will be legal to keep as existing specimens but breeding and sale will be illegal. This will be EU wide and although the UK is pulling out of the EU we are still likely to adopt and carry forward their laws for the foreseeable future.
> 
> So if you're looking to make big money on a new King Snake morph it probably isn't a good idea but if you just want a non breeding pet it's fine.


I understand there are albino kingsnakes in Gran Canaria but the real threat to wildlife and certainlt the Gallotia lizards out there are the bloody feral cats yet nothing is done about them.


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## ian14

rossiriley said:


> I understand there are albino kingsnakes in Gran Canaria but the real threat to wildlife and certainlt the Gallotia lizards out there are the bloody feral cats yet nothing is done about them.


This keeps being thrown up.
When the EU Invasive species regs were first brought up the FBH claimed this heralded the end of reptile keeping. Despite pointing out that the proposals mentioned predominantly aquatic plants and inverts, and listed just two species of herp (slider terrapins and American bullfrogs) they claimed this was wrong and every single species that could possibly survive in any EU country would be banned. And anyone saying they were wrong were shouted down as being "disingenuous"
Of course, when it came in what was listed? 
Aquatic inverts, aquatic plants sliders and American bullfrogs!
The UK is set to.leave the EU. Even if, for some bizarre reason we don't, we live on an island.
This ban keeps being raised and keeps being shown as not happening.
The IAS regs are actually well written. We as a current EU member state are in a unique position . We are surrounded by the sea. Now as far as I am aware, kingsnakes are not aquatic And most definitely not pelagic. So in the unlikely event that they are banned from the entire EU, given that most member states do not have a climate suitable for them to survive and reproduce, it's fair to say the UK would not ban them.
This is yet again scare mongering on an issue that the FBH have been using for years.
Also, the questionnaire posted by the FBH to apparently gather evidence to argue against a ban frankly reads like a 6th form A level questionnaire. It has nothing in it to counter an argument to ban, simply asking what species are kept, how old they are, and what would be done with them if banned, including the most ridiculous option for an answer of releasing them!!!!!


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## Sid85

Hey,
Just couple of thoughts from me.



ian14 said:


> So in the unlikely event that they are banned from the entire EU, given that most member states do not have a climate suitable for them to survive and reproduce, it's fair to say the UK would not ban them.


The UK is still part of the EU, if Kingsnakes get banned in the EU that includes the UK. I know the UK is planning to leave the EU, but until we do, we adhere to EU laws. Generally, at the point we leave the EU, then EU laws become UK laws as a default position (which will include the IAS list). The UK then has the ability to change and make our own laws, but I cannot see the IAS list being a priority for the UK government.



ian14 said:


> Also, the questionnaire posted by the FBH to apparently gather evidence to argue against a ban frankly reads like a 6th form A level questionnaire. It has nothing in it to counter an argument to ban


(I may be reading between the lines a bit here.) Given the proposed ban is going to vote suggests it has already gone through the scientific assessment, and the suggested time frames imply there isn't time for a robust and detailed survey. The survey is a simple and pragmatic way to collect some information on the current scale of keeping. Any information at this stage will probably not be presented to an academic or scientific audience.

Dont know if that's useful.

Sid


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## DrymarchonCouperi

What people need to remember is this,how many times has the boy cried wolf for nothing to actually happen?
it's one thing to have legislation but quite another to implement it.
I find it strange how some in the hobby get themselves all worried about proposed banns which never actually happen but have nothing to say or care about things like tenant contracts that apply to both privet and social housing that if implemented would have a massive impact to our hobby......silence


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## wilkinss77

DrymarchonCouperi said:


> What people need to remember is this,*how many times has the boy cried wolf for nothing to actually happen?*
> it's one thing to have legislation but quite another to implement it.
> I find it strange how some in the hobby get themselves all worried about proposed banns which never actually happen but have nothing to say or care about things like tenant contracts that apply to both privet and social housing that if implemented would have a massive impact to our hobby......silence


It does make you wonder how much of it is a real threat, & how much of it a mere bogeyman scare.


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## colinm

It's not a scare. The last time the proposal was successfully fought off because the risk assesment was proven to be flawed. It has now come back and the Spanish government are determined for it to go be passed this time.
The whole crux of the matter is that Kingsnkes are only likely to survive in the Canaries but this will be a Europe wide ban.This sets a pretty dangerous precedent.


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## Zincubus

I’d have thought that the UK’s climate and temps would be taken into consideration, seems not .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Tortoise Man

colinm said:


> It's not a scare. The last time the proposal was successfully fought off because the risk assesment was proven to be flawed. It has now come back and the Spanish government are determined for it to go be passed this time.
> The whole crux of the matter is that Kingsnkes are only likely to survive in the Canaries but this will be a Europe wide ban.This sets a pretty dangerous precedent.


I am not sure where you get this from? It isn't the Spanish Government that is pushing for this. It is the European Commission that funded a study of over 300 different species to found out the species that poses greatest risk to the EU, both now and in 50 years time based upon climate change models. California Kingsnake was in the top ten for risk factors. The risk assesment was not proven to be flawed, that isn't how it works, each risk assesment will spend many years being refined and improved upon until it reaches a state where it will so into public consideration before being accepted then they will vote on it, then it will be implemented. The countries that are mainly involved with this at the moment are Denmark, Netherlands, Estonia, Croatia and Poland. Other stakeholders that are part of this are; BNA in Germany, Ornamental Fish International based in the Netherlands, Reptile and Exotic Pet Trade Association based in the UK, DGHT based in Germany, European Pet Organization based in the Netherlands and Sustainable Users Network based in the UK. If people read the risk assessment, within 50 years the suitable range of the species in EU will be majority of Southern Europe. Due to legislation it is an all or nothing situation, in order to protect areas that are under threat it has to go on the EU wide list. If you don't like this petition your MEP to start change...

Just so people can actually read the reasoning behind why there are doing this the link below is the link to the most recent RA and attached comments from the previously mentioned parties.



https://circabc.europa.eu/faces/jsp...JSp/KsR7BB3p96yzC+6gT77vs1Q+M+EUjqjCZ4AwWILQ=


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## davemoths

That's not entirely correct. Member states can propose species that they perceive as a risk, and this species is driven by the issue on the Canary Islands that is clearly a disaster. However, the risk assessment makes a lot of assumptions that are not facts. It assumes that the sub species are all capable of the same invasive potential, it assumes that propagule introduction in other range areas will respond in the same way as the Canaries (despite literature that demonstrates the difference of introductions in island ecosytems with naive wildlife and free ecological niches) and it ignores the fact that the introduction in the canaries was deliberate attempt to introduce the species and there are no records of any invasive establishment in the EU. The risk assessment is not consulted publicly (although it is there if you know where to look), and if you wish to make representation then you have to know its there and put your views forward. It then progresses to the management committee to be voted on as a LIST, not on a species by species basis. I don't think that anyone disagrees with action on invasive species, where there is a clear risk and control can be effective. Even with the most extreme climate modelling you refer to the area of land that could be potentially available for colonisation is a small percentage of the land mass of Europe and so the listing for the whole of Europe is not appropriate it should be dealt with in local legislation in areas of risk.


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## davemoths

Agreed, but Cats are just "doing what comes naturally" dear little fluffies, cant possibly say anything bad about a cat.


----------



## davemoths

wilkinss77 said:


> It does make you wonder how much of it is a real threat, & how much of it a mere bogeyman scare.


The risk assessment has been accepted by the IAS Scientific Forum (fact) and will now go to the Management Committee (fact) and they will consider it along with all the other species under consideration and then vote on the WHOLE list (NOT species by species) to introduce controls (fact). This may happen next week (fact), or it may be at a future meeting (fact). Sometimes the Management Committee may want to ask for additional information, consider it in a different list of species or just have to many to debate at the next meeting. That's a lot of facts, and a lot of things that have or will happen now the process has started. If that's scaremongering then that's what is going on, but to me that is reporting of facts and want to make sure my points of view and arguments are taken it account by that Management Committee.


----------



## Tortoise Man

davemoths said:


> That's not entirely correct. Member states can propose species that they perceive as a risk, and this species is driven by the issue on the Canary Islands that is clearly a disaster. However, the risk assessment makes a lot of assumptions that are not facts. It assumes that the sub species are all capable of the same invasive potential, it assumes that propagule introduction in other range areas will respond in the same way as the Canaries (despite literature that demonstrates the difference of introductions in island ecosytems with naive wildlife and free ecological niches) and it ignores the fact that the introduction in the canaries was deliberate attempt to introduce the species and there are no records of any invasive establishment in the EU. The risk assessment is not consulted publicly (although it is there if you know where to look), and if you wish to make representation then you have to know its there and put your views forward. It then progresses to the management committee to be voted on as a LIST, not on a species by species basis. I don't think that anyone disagrees with action on invasive species, where there is a clear risk and control can be effective. Even with the most extreme climate modelling you refer to the area of land that could be potentially available for colonisation is a small percentage of the land mass of Europe and so the listing for the whole of Europe is not appropriate it should be dealt with in local legislation in areas of risk.


As you say Member States can propose, however for the species in question it wasn't from any particular State. This risk assessment originated via the study. They do use the situation within the Canary Islands as one of their key focus points for what issues this species can cause. There are records of the species within UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Germany and of course Spain. However only the population in the Canaries are considered established.

As a citizen of the European Union you can submit your opinion and research into the risk assessment, however as with everything political it is often done via your MEP. The risk assessments are really easy to find online if you just search "EU invasive species list" and follow the link for risk assessments under scientific review at the moment. It isn't hidden at all, a simple google search will get it up for people.

While you are correct that when voting to get the list updated it is done as a list as a whole, but it can be voted down due to one species. I.e. if they don't agree with the inclusion of a particular species it can be reject on that basis.


I do agree with you that the regions should control their own lists however, this is a procedural issue and you can petition your representatives to start change.


----------



## davemoths

Tortoise Man said:


> As you say Member States can propose, however for the species in question it wasn't from any particular State. This risk assessment originated via the study. They do use the situation within the Canary Islands as one of their key focus points for what issues this species can cause. There are records of the species within UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Germany and of course Spain. However only the population in the Canaries are considered established.
> 
> As a citizen of the European Union you can submit your opinion and research into the risk assessment, however as with everything political it is often done via your MEP. The risk assessments are really easy to find online if you just search "EU invasive species list" and follow the link for risk assessments under scientific review at the moment. It isn't hidden at all, a simple google search will get it up for people.
> 
> While you are correct that when voting to get the list updated it is done as a list as a whole, but it can be voted down due to one species. I.e. if they don't agree with the inclusion of a particular species it can be reject on that basis.
> 
> 
> I do agree with you that the regions should control their own lists however, this is a procedural issue and you can petition your representatives to start change.


Yes, the issue does not really lie with the regulations but how they are applied. Because the rejection of a list would not look good and wherever possible consensus is sought then what happens in reality is that people either give way to listings that they don't completely agree with because they want a more serious listing to go through, or (better way) a species is bumped off to a future meeting to get the rest through. Either way votes should be on species by species, not as a list. As you say though that requires change to the legislation that lies behind the process and there is a cat in hell's chance of getting that changed. Well, until someone proposes the most globally damaging and invasive species (after Man) the good old Cat. 

My point about the RA's is not so much that they are hidden, but that where decisions are being made then this information should pushed out to stakeholders and that doesn't happen.


----------



## Tortoise Man

davemoths said:


> Yes, the issue does not really lie with the regulations but how they are applied. Because the rejection of a list would not look good and wherever possible consensus is sought then what happens in reality is that people either give way to listings that they don't completely agree with because they want a more serious listing to go through, or (better way) a species is bumped off to a future meeting to get the rest through. Either way votes should be on species by species, not as a list. As you say though that requires change to the legislation that lies behind the process and there is a cat in hell's chance of getting that changed. Well, until someone proposes the most globally damaging and invasive species (after Man) the good old Cat.
> 
> My point about the RA's is not so much that they are hidden, but that where decisions are being made then this information should pushed out to stakeholders and that doesn't happen.


I do agree that the system to get the legislation isn't the best way that could be done and many improvements could be made. I think to be honest it was rushed into place in the first place and there hasn't been a serious push to get this fixed. I would love to see the domestic cat put up just to see the fall out...

The same location that holds the RA also holds the comments and critiques made by the major stakeholders, as well as the responses by the authors. Not sure how they get informed, however you would hope they would just check the library when it gets updated.


----------



## DrymarchonCouperi

I find it amazing the fuss some make about some theoretical (ban) which 
A. would have no chance of being legislated into UK law (and before people mention EU Law,we're leaving)although it's said at Brexit the UK will transfer EU Law into UK law this is only to make the transition easier,the UK government will drop EU Law case by case.
B. would be unenforceable even if it did.
C. All actual evidence shows any legislation to ban particular animals doesn't work,they don't work because their unenforceable.
Why do some keepers get themselves worked up about nothing yet ignore real issues?
I guess some people are easily played


----------



## colinm

Whether its enforceable or not is another matter. It will mean that these Kingsnakes will not be sold at Doncaster or at any law abiding pet shops. Much as the Red Eared Sliders are now.

European Law is United Kingdom Law and will be for the foreseeable future. As others have stated if the UK leaves the EU their laws will become ours. They will only be repealed after we have left, and I`m sure this wont be on the top of the list.

It has nothing about being played. Its all about keeping people informed.


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## DrymarchonCouperi

colinm said:


> Whether its enforceable or not is another matter. It will mean that these Kingsnakes will not be sold at Doncaster or at any law abiding pet shops. Much as the Red Eared Sliders are now.
> 
> European Law is United Kingdom Law and will be for the foreseeable future. As others have stated if the UK leaves the EU their laws will become ours. They will only be repealed after we have left, and I`m sure this wont be on the top of the list.
> 
> It has nothing about being played. Its all about keeping people informed.


Well we must agree to disagree,it's noted these ban stories keep coming from the same people,very consistent,what's consistent is nothing becomes of them.
Just like the bans on keeping large pythons,some people started these scare stories in the 70's.
I'd like to hear how these bans would be enforced,The state cannot police the steets let alone raiding my snake room to remove any illegal king snakes I may or may not keeping,honest some people need to get real


----------



## Malc

DrymarchonCouperi said:


> Well we must agree to disagree,it's noted these ban stories keep coming from the same people,very consistent,what's consistent is nothing becomes of them.
> Just like the bans on keeping large pythons,some people started these scare stories in the 70's.
> I'd like to hear how these bans would be enforced,The state cannot police the steets let alone raiding my snake room to remove any illegal king snakes I may or may not keeping,honest *some people need to get real*


:banghead: 

Clearly you have no comprehension of how this will pan out. If / when this becomes law won't make your snake illegal... The "ban" will be on the sale, trade and movement of the listed species. The authorities won't be knocking on your door, confiscating your king snake(s) especially as even if they know you owned one it would be hard to prove if the adult snake wasn't hatched before anything becomes law. What it will mean is that no breeder will be able to breed them or retailer / trader / importer will be able to sell or transport new hatchlings within the countries that are part of the EU, or (as already pointed out) adopt the law pre-Brexit. 

Can you also provide a link to any page that details the ban on keeping large pythons in the UK... as far as I know there isn't one.


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## ian14

> Can you also provide a link to any page that details the ban on keeping large pythons in the UK... as far as I know there isn't one


.

I suspect that he/she is referring to the rumours that periodically ircate that large constrictors are going to be banned, rather than an actual ban, which, as you rightly say, doesn't exist.
There was a proposal, if I remember rightly, at the last DWAA review, to include them on Schedule 1 but this was dismissed as a large escaped python would not pose a risk to the public as they cannot exactly sneak up unseen.


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## wilkinss77

ian14 said:


> .
> 
> I suspect that he/she is referring to the rumours that periodically ircate that large constrictors are going to be banned, rather than an actual ban, which, as you rightly say, doesn't exist.
> *There was a proposal, if I remember rightly, at the last DWAA review, to include them on Schedule 1 but this was dismissed as a large escaped python would not pose a risk to the public as they cannot exactly sneak up unseen.*


There was indeed. I believe it was proposed that nothing bigger than a boa constrictor should be allowed.


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## Malc

ian14 said:


> .
> 
> I suspect that he/she is referring to the rumours that periodically ircate that large constrictors are going to be banned, rather than an actual ban, which, as you rightly say, doesn't exist.
> There was a proposal, if I remember rightly, at the last DWAA review, to include them on Schedule 1 but this was dismissed as a large escaped python would not pose a risk to the public as they cannot exactly sneak up unseen.


That "proposal" has been around for the passed 30 years or so. I remember the MKHS back in the '90's discussing the amendments and proposals to the DWAA most years. The only ban I am aware of was the one imposed in various states of the US following the death of a child caused by some irresponsible person with inadequate caging. But that again was a ban on transporting across county lines, not actually owning one.


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## DrymarchonCouperi

What I was referring to was the consistent rumours within the hobby of threats of various bans,bans of which either don't materialise or if they do don't have any impact in as much as they don't damage the hobby.
Any intelligent rational person can see that for us in the UK any European King snake ban would be unenforceable,their too widespread to police,there's no reason our state would want to implement legislation that's designed for a small problem in a club med country.
it's as usual a nothing burger.
I can today buy from adverts no less pit bull terriers that were banned over 20 years ago.


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## Malc

You are correct in that it will be impossible to police when it comes to individuals and private sales, and to be honest I doubt that joe public wouldn't know these were banned if they stumbled across an advert for one on gumtree or whatever. Where as most people are aware that pit bulls are band due to the publicity. 

Where the ban will be enforced (as already mentioned) will be in trade and organised shows. This may or may not prevent breeders of Kings stop breeding them.. it may go "underground", who knows.... And as far as any established wild colonies in the Canaries it may well be that any attempts to eradicate would be a waste of time due to logistical reasons. I know its not on the same scale as the python issue in Florida, but for every kingsnake found and killed, 20+ could be born the next year...


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## ian14

Crablet said:


> *The Federation of British Herpetologists (FBH) understands that the Kingsnake Risk Assessment has passed the EU Invasive Alien Species Scientific Forum review and will progress to the EU Invasive Alien Species Management Committee for a vote on weather a ban on Lampropeltis getula sub species should be implemented. *
> 
> The FBH are gathering evidence on the status of the species and sub-species kept privately in captivity, focused on but not limited to the UK, and we will submit our findings to the IAS Management Committee before the vote in mid December.
> 
> If you keep kingsnakes, please could you complete the short survey link below and share in as many groups and forums as possible.
> Responses received by midday Friday 6th December will help us provide evidence in our response.
> 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1qAYDuSsXT3XQ-pEF1AEL-w4gW7FKhPOHDIRE9EvN6-4/edit?usp=sharing


Out of interest, can you provide a link to any official EU document or online resource that would in fact confirm this. The only thing I can find is a few years old and does not recommend an EU-wide ban.
The FBH historically have been very clever with word play to make things appear worse than they really are. And here you say the FBH "understands", not that you have sight of a report confirming this.
I have again tried to find anything from the EU that confirms what you "understand" to be the case, yet there is nothing.
Unless you can provide actual proof and official confirmation then this is, as usual, no more than FBH scare mongering.
Incidentally, it's probably worth spell checking when making "official" statements from a so-called representative organisation. I think you meant "whether" rather than "weather".


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## ian14

And as an add on your previous post, your "questionnaire" is frankly appalling.
You actually have an option of an answer of letting captive kings into the wild??
The survey is frankly pathetic and worthless. It gives absolutely no scientific data to counter a ban on the getulus complex.
Also, who actually is the FBH now?
The website no longer exists.
You cannot join as a member. Who runs it? Who is it? I think some people are clinging to the past sadly, to something that was viewed with some suspicion by many experienced keepers.
So really, what relevance does this "federation" still have?


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## al stotton

ian14 said:


> And as an add on your previous post, your "questionnaire" is frankly appalling.
> You actually have an option of an answer of letting captive kings into the wild??
> The survey is frankly pathetic and worthless. It gives absolutely no scientific data to counter a ban on the getulus complex.
> Also, who actually is the FBH now?
> The website no longer exists.
> You cannot join as a member. Who runs it? Who is it? I think some people are clinging to the past sadly, to something that was viewed with some suspicion by many experienced keepers.
> So really, what relevance does this "federation" still have?


Good points Ian because I just checked their FBH dedicated section on this site *crickets* since 2015.
I agree this type of scare mongering has been allowed to perpetuate for too long and I suspect many are finally realizing this fact.

For me it has always acted like some kind of limited hangout , with a certain person who's name I refuse to say heading up this self promoting endevour.
This latest jobby strikes me as a desperate attempt to regain some importance in the hobby.

To answer your question , they have very little relevance , but they do have a self sustaining wealth of hyerbole.


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## johndavidwoods

Why does the FBH, or anybody else, highlighting a possible risk/issue get people so riled? It's obvious the kingsnake ban is being seriously considered at high level by competent authorities so could come to pass. Isn't it better to have awareness raised? If it never ultimately comes to pass, it's no skin off anybody's nose to have been made aware that it was, at one point, a possibility. I'm not sure I understand the antipathy.


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## Malc

johndavidwoods said:


> Why does the FBH, or anybody else, highlighting a possible risk/issue get people so riled? It's obvious the kingsnake ban is being seriously considered at high level by competent authorities so could come to pass. Isn't it better to have awareness raised? If it never ultimately comes to pass, it's no skin off anybody's nose to have been made aware that it was, at one point, a possibility. I'm not sure I understand the antipathy.


I guess because it's like politics, full of fake news, scaremongering and false promises. Rather than simply state the facts, any timeline and how and when it might affect someone who is in the position any legislation will have.


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## Thrasops

johndavidwoods said:


> Why does the FBH, or anybody else, highlighting a possible risk/issue get people so riled? It's obvious the kingsnake ban is being seriously considered at high level by competent authorities so could come to pass. Isn't it better to have awareness raised? If it never ultimately comes to pass, it's no skin off anybody's nose to have been made aware that it was, at one point, a possibility. I'm not sure I understand the antipathy.


I posted to raise awareness of the new proposal, as I did last year (when I also linked to the actual IAS risk assessment, and the response from several societies including REPTA, the FBH and OATA) when people were saying this was just a rumour and did not exist. (I have no affiliation to the FBH btw, I just prefer to remain aware of such issues in my hobby).

Last year people were complaining that there was no word from the relevant societies and nobody had heard of this proposal.

This year people are complaining the societies are scaremongering.

Odd.


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## Malc

Thrasops said:


> I posted to raise awareness of the new proposal, as I did last year (when I also linked to the actual IAS risk assessment, and the response from several societies including REPTA, the FBH and OATA) when people were saying this was just a rumour and did not exist. (I have no affiliation to the FBH btw, I just prefer to remain aware of such issues in my hobby).
> 
> Last year people were complaining that there was no word from the relevant societies and nobody had heard of this proposal.
> 
> This year people are complaining the societies are scaremongering.
> 
> Odd.


Just to get things straight my comments weren't directed at you. More supporting you in that you have linked to the factual documentation through out. It was more that others have all speculated on what the outcome will be (much like Brexit, but that's another thing ! :whistling2, and spread false info.


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## Thrasops

Just resurrecting this as the EU IAL proposals for _Lampropeltis getula_ have finally been ratified and as of 2nd August 2022 will be on the list in the EU, as well as the African Clawed frog (_Xenopus laevis_).

Hopefully it will have no bearing on the UK hobby as we are no longer in the EU and there really would be no reason at all to ban Kingsnakes here.


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## Malc

Thrasops said:


> Hopefully it will have no bearing on the UK hobby as we are no longer in the EU and there really would be no reason at all to ban Kingsnakes here.


Something good to come out of Brexit then


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## ian14

I said from the off that this would never be a issue. The UK is an island, and does not have an environment that would allow any king snake species to not only survive, but thrive, breed and become a threat to native species.
Even if we were still in the EU, I suspect that this ban would just not apply.
This new EU ruling will have no impact on the UK as we are no longer an EU member.


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## QWERTYOP

Bonkers. An invasive population has become established on a Spanish island, so lets ban them in countries where they wouldn’t survive a winter. Completely senseless. Bound to have knock on effects. I wonder if prices will fall as breeders and shop keepers here suddenly feel they have more stock than they can shift for example? The return of the dirt cheap MBK?…..


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## colinm

The ironic thing is that it was a very close vote for the ban and if we (the UK ) had still been in the EU we would have opposed the ban and it probably wouldnt have been ratified.
We in Great Britain should be ok but in Northern Ireland they will probably have the ban. The Northern Ireland protocol still classes NI as part of the EU.


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## LiasisUK

I don't think this will extend to us in UK now that we aren't in the EU. There are rumours of other EU banned species coming off the UK banned list, as from what I understand they just moved the EU regulations over with the plans to go back over it all when they can, which I believe they are starting. Things like Coatis, Raccoons and Tanuki may come off. Also although not the same legislation the imports of certain species (Uroplatus for example) may also be possible again.

Say what you want about Brexit (I voted remain) it may have some benefits for us as animal keepers, we may be able to avoid the rise in positive lists and banning of species in the EU. Every cloud.


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## John Hufton

How can they ban kingsnakes in captivity when cats kill millions of birds and other creatures every year?


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## ian14

John Hufton said:


> How can they ban kingsnakes in captivity when cats kill millions of birds and other creatures every year?


It's a non issue. 
The EU have banned them due to the "whats law in one country is law for the rest" mentality.
It doesn't affect the UK, which I said when this first reared its ugly head.


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