# RubbStrate - Reuseable reptile substrate



## LFBP-NEIL

Just launched on our website a new product called RubbStrate - reusable reptile substrate more details here RubbStrate - Re-useable Reptile Substrate


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## excession

Heh, it looks pretty cool.

Would be nice to see some pics of some set ups using it.


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## oakelm

Thats really odd. And a very random brain to invent it. Might have to give it a test run. Just trying to work out how I would dry a good few kg of the stuff without having to lay it all over the floor on sheets :hmm:


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## LFBP-NEIL

oakelm said:


> Thats really odd. And a very random brain to invent it. Might have to give it a test run. Just trying to work out how I would dry a good few kg of the stuff without having to lay it all over the floor on sheets :hmm:


After you wash it off ( easiest method in a bath - or a bucket, large storage tub is just as good), you just chuck it in a dry bath towel and bunch it up, give it a shake and that gets most of the water off, because its rubber it absorbs no water and dries fairly quickly just left out in a warm room.

will post some pics of set ups soon..


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## essexchondro

If its made of rubber then how does it absorb and hold/release any moisture (both from bowel movements and spraying to boost humidity etc)?


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## LFBP-NEIL

essexchondro said:


> If its made of rubber then how does it absorb and hold/release any moisture (both from bowel movements and spraying to boost humidity etc)?


It doesnt, It will not absorb any humidity at all, However when tested alongside cypress mulch and repti bark, these were found not to absorb any water from mist spraying either, the only way we could get cypress mulch and repti bark to absorb water was to soak it. 

If a litre of water is sprayed over rubbstrate, cypress mulch and repti bark the results were the same, the water evaporated off of the surface of the substrate before it had time to soak in to the wood. The rubbstrate behaved exactly the same as the cypress mulch - trapping moisture between its flakes but not actually absorbing any.

If very high humdity is required, i.e more than could be created by mist spraying a few times a day, you can create a deeper layer of substrate so that the bottom layer acts as a reservoir - the bottom layer will not rot or mould as it would with wooden substrates,


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## HadesDragons

What sort of size are the pieces?


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## Reptilover

*I think its a good idea and product.*

- Personally i would have made the actuall pieces larger, a suitable diametre for bearded dragon so they cannot swallow it. I'm glad you have put a warning about impaction on it but just think about it, if a animal swallows it, it will just lodge in. Size wise i would have gone for a good few inch, 7-9 inch pieces that are fairly wide so they carn't be swallowed as im sure many people would go for this with there bearded dragons.

- Great colour range aswell, especially the red wood, looks realy realistic.

Great Product!

EDIT: Are you the manafacturer of this product? _If not could you send me a PM with the manafacturer please._


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## cornsnakejay

this stuff looks great.
out of curiosity, would corn snakes be able to burrow through it or do the pieces grip together? 
if they can burrow in it, would the tunnels colapse behind them?


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## LFBP-NEIL

The pieces vary in size from about half a cm in size up to a couple of inches in length, the manufacturing process ensures they vary in size randomly, 

If swallowed it may impact, but less so than wood, these are not hard splinters they are soft pliable rubber, so yes swallowing is not good, but less damaging than wood, they have been tested for human ingestion and have gained a "toy safe" classification for being non toxic and not a choke hazard, but humans can obviously swallow bigger things than reptiles!

Snakes can burrow in this, but it does not clump, it has the same properties as aspen and cypress mulch. 

We are not the manufacturer, but we have the exclusive rights to sell this product so any trade / wholesale enquiries are welcome. But we will be contacting traders about it shortly.


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## LFBP-NEIL

I personally wouldnt advise this substrate for beardies, same as i wouldnt advise any wood based subsrate with them. The product is basically intended to be a replacement where wood based substrates are already used - without the mites and mould etc


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## LFBP-NEIL

above, Rubbstrate left , cypress mulch right










Compared to a pound coin










with occellated skink










In GTP enclosure


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## Ssthisto

How does it react to high-heat setups? Does it go soft?

I'd be concerned that, because the stuff doesn't absorb fluids, that all the muck and nastiness from a peeing snake will wind up on the bottom of the viv and you'd need to sterilise the whole viv every time instead of just spot-cleaning an absorbent, disposable substrate.


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## sparkle

Ssthisto said:


> How does it react to high-heat setups? Does it go soft?
> 
> I'd be concerned that, because the stuff doesn't absorb fluids, that all the muck and nastiness from a peeing snake will wind up on the bottom of the viv and you'd need to sterilise the whole viv every time instead of just spot-cleaning an absorbent, disposable substrate.


 
Good questions.. I had wondered about the substrate not absorbing i can see that being a huge problem with it seeping through to the bottom...

also in high heat set ups.. does the rubber give off any harmful fumes and have there been tests etc to prove its safe with heat??


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## LFBP-NEIL

Ssthisto said:


> How does it react to high-heat setups? Does it go soft?
> 
> I'd be concerned that, because the stuff doesn't absorb fluids, that all the muck and nastiness from a peeing snake will wind up on the bottom of the viv and you'd need to sterilise the whole viv every time instead of just spot-cleaning an absorbent, disposable substrate.


 
Its already fairly soft, its soft enough to be bendable but not so soft you can tear it easily. 

I have tested it at a distance of 12" away from a 100W unregulated basking spot, The rubber didnt go any softer, 

after testing with a variety of reptiles, spot cleaning was sufficient to maintain a clean vivarium. However there will be some situations & species where this substrate is not an option, It doesnt work very well with corn snakes in RUBS, unless a layer of newspaper is put underneath, where as with a corn snake in a viv heated by infra red it was great.

With large snakes that pass a lot of water you will not get the same effect as using newspaper and any liquids passed may become trapped in lower layers if using a deep layer of rubbstrate.


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## LFBP-NEIL

sparkle said:


> Good questions.. I had wondered about the substrate not absorbing i can see that being a huge problem with it seeping through to the bottom...
> 
> also in high heat set ups.. does the rubber give off any harmful fumes and have there been tests etc to prove its safe with heat??


Like i say its not a huge problem with most reptiles, if you have a large snake that pees like a donkey it may be, if so then this substrate wont work for you, but then neither will orchid bark, repti bark or cypress mulch as none of these wood substrates have great absorbancy properties, if they have water poured on them.

High Heat, I have tested this under a 100W lamp at a distance of 12" for one calender month, i was worried that the rubber may melt - it didnt, I was worried that it may dry out and crumble - it didnt, i was worried it may emit toxic fumes - it didnt. 

The rubber will not melt / ignite until it has 300.c on it, by this time any pets will be already dead and your house already on fire. If it does catch fire it burns at a very slow rate - this is what gained it its inflamibility rating.

The rubber smell does increase slightly when the substrate is warm, but you only notice this if you stick your head in the vivarium, The smell of rubber isnt toxic, the fumes caused by burning rubber are.

The rubber smell is caused by the rubber flakes "off gassing" and releasing VOC's - volotile organic compounds - which sounds scary and harmfull, until you do a bit of research and discover that Melemine (what all of your vivariumss are covered in) "off gases" and releases formeldahyde as a Volotile organic compund.

BUT before every one starts to panic - everything "off gases" and creates VOC's see this scientific article on cut grass emitting volotile organic compounds .. Gas emissions from mowed grass. - Free Online Library


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## iangreentree

i seen this stuff at homebase in the garden bit,it was used for kids play grounds it was in all colours and said safe non toxic etc etc


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## Fixx

Ecoscape?


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## LFBP-NEIL

Yes we are working with ecoscape on this, out of all the rubbers we looked at for doing this product this one is miles ahead of anything else.


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## wiz

hi would this be any good for my royal which loves to borrow and so at the moment has aspen about 3in deep


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## Siman

I'd imagine a good option would be to have newspaper on the base of all vivs/RUBs and then putting this over the top of it. This mainly being that any 'seepage' would be left on the newspaper to avoid total overhaul - Although you'd still need to remove the newspaper etc etc. 

I would think this would be a great product for anyone currently using newspaper who wants to give it a bit more of a 'wild' look.

Wondering whether this would be good for Tegus? Ours likes to burrow and dig but the viv has to be highish humidity.


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## snowgoose

Interesting as I'v been looking into rubber landscape chipping as substrate.

So what's the differences between RubbStrate and say any other rubber landscaping mulch?


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## LFBP-NEIL

Rubbstrate is effectively a rubber landscaping mulch, however rubbstrate is made from flaked solid rubber chunks not recycled tyres - so there isnt any contamination from metal wire or braid. Rubbstrate is also coloured using organic pigments that are non toxic - No glues, dyes, solvents or paints are used. The process used to create rubbstrate creates flakes that are identical to wood mulch - not coarse lumps or chips. Its also been fire safety tested. As well as this we have conducted our own tests on the product to asses its suitability for use with reptiles and its available in smaller bag sizes (1kg and 5kg) than landscape mulch plus rubbstrate is colour blended to create a natural looking forest mix.


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## snowgoose

Hmm Interesting. But I can get rubber landscaping mulch made from tyres that is 100% toxic free and free from wire and other stuff. It's also a fair bit cheaper than Rubbstrate.

I may sound like a tw*t but I'm just still not sold on it.

Can you convince me otherwise?


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## LFBP-NEIL

well I could get a seed tray fill it with compost, sprinkle some seeds on and have a green seed mat - for a few pence...

But like i say Rubbstrate is the only rubber mulch that has been tested for use with reptiles, as we have done all the testing ourselves, and we are the only company that sell this type of mulch as reptile bedding. You can use other rubber mulch's, all i can say is that rubbstrate is 100% wire free as its not made from old tyres... unlike most others. and rubbstrate is the only one made using a flaking process so that the rubber looks identical to wood not rubber chunky lumps..

If you dont want to buy it - dont buy it? I am not twisting anybodys arm here.

and to add as an edit...

Before we decided on the final manufacturer to go with for rubbstrate, we tested all (or most) of the rubber mulch's available, we found the best one and aquired the right to sell it as reptile bedding, so yes there are other mulchs available and in our opinion this ones the best, if anyones interested in cheaper pricing than the 1kg or 5 kg bags then they can contact us for wholesale pricing.


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## snowgoose

I Wasn't having a go at anyone I was just pointing a few things out.

And on the seed mats. If you did what you say with seed trays and compost it wouldn't be so much a mat. My mats contain no compost and the seeds are placed in the pat and no "sprinkled on top"


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## LFBP-NEIL

snowgoose said:


> I Wasn't having a go at anyone I was just pointing a few things out.
> 
> And on the seed mats. If you did what you say with seed trays and compost it wouldn't be so much a mat. My mats contain no compost and the seeds are placed in the pat and no "sprinkled on top"


yeah but im still not sold on it....


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## snowgoose

pink said:


> yeah but im still not sold on it....


Well if you have any questions I'll gladly answer them.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Siman said:


> I'd imagine a good option would be to have newspaper on the base of all vivs/RUBs and then putting this over the top of it. This mainly being that any 'seepage' would be left on the newspaper to avoid total overhaul - Although you'd still need to remove the newspaper etc etc.
> 
> I would think this would be a great product for anyone currently using newspaper who wants to give it a bit more of a 'wild' look.
> 
> Wondering whether this would be good for Tegus? Ours likes to burrow and dig but the viv has to be highish humidity.


I have been using it with papuan Ground boas that require a fair bit of humidity and if sprayed with water it acts the same way as wood mulch bedding,


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## LFBP-NEIL

The best feature of using a rubber bedding is the lack of substrate mites, they just dont / cant live in the stuff.


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## markhill

Looks good and for a Rub or something small it probably is but the site says that 1kg will cover one sq foot at 1 inch deep, so i'd need 3 5kg bags to do a 6x2 viv for my BCI.

Thats £78 before delivery :gasp: _just for one viv_!!!

Any chance of bigger bags with better deals for bulk buying?


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## Siman

I am considering it for my Teg to be honest. Especially since once you've bought it you can just wash it and not buy it again, so realistically its expensive to start with but you're saving in the long haul with no trips to the shops again and again like you do with mulch etc


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## LFBP-NEIL

markhill said:


> Looks good and for a Rub or something small it probably is but the site says that 1kg will cover one sq foot at 1 inch deep, so i'd need 3 5kg bags to do a 6x2 viv for my BCI.
> 
> Thats £78 before delivery :gasp: _just for one viv_!!!
> 
> Any chance of bigger bags with better deals for bulk buying?


I am looking at selling this in bulk bags of 10kg direct from us at a price that wouldnt be too high, but at the moment we are trying to get the kilo bags into the shops but of course wholesalers and retailers need to make a penny so it bumps the price of smaller quantities up a bit.. And to be honest we are aiming this product towards the RUB, exo terra terrarium, faunarium, small vivarium keepers at the moment as there are more of them than the big viv keepers, but yes I am looking at taking care of the needs of big viv keepers eventually.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Siman said:


> I am considering it for my Teg to be honest. Especially since once you've bought it you can just wash it and not buy it again, so realistically its expensive to start with but you're saving in the long haul with no trips to the shops again and again like you do with mulch etc


We have a bosc on it at the moment (not the same i know), and feeding him from a dish to make sure he doesnt pick up any substrate when eating, but hes thriving on it, if you want me to send you a small sample please pm me your details.


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## GlasgowGecko

Hi Pink,

I have a couple of questions that I hope you can help with. Firstly can you tell me the ingredients of the rubber please, as I'm sure you realise that there are a great many additives which go into giving polymers the properties which makes them desirable, some of which can be deemed, non-user friendly.
Secondly the tests you allude to, were these simply the spot bulb test you have mentioned, or have you a done more quantitative testing? If so is it possible to see the literature?
And finally, you mention on your website the impaction risk, and you suggest that you consider it to be lower than from a conventional wooden chip. Is this conjecture or based on real evidence?

Kind regards,
Andy


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## LFBP-NEIL

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hi Pink,
> 
> I have a couple of questions that I hope you can help with. Firstly can you tell me the ingredients of the rubber please, as I'm sure you realise that there are a great many additives which go into giving polymers the properties which makes them desirable, some of which can be deemed, non-user friendly.
> Secondly the tests you allude to, were these simply the spot bulb test you have mentioned, or have you a done more quantitative testing? If so is it possible to see the literature?
> And finally, you mention on your website the impaction risk, and you suggest that you consider it to be lower than from a conventional wooden chip. Is this conjecture or based on real evidence?
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andy


Well the rubber has been ingestion tested and toxicity tested to gain a "toy safe" rating, this has been conducted by the manufacturer as one of the primary uses of this mulch is in toddlers playgrounds - so if it safe for a small child to play in and swallow, I am pretty sure a reptile will withstand it - if you require full safety data I can point you in the direction of the manufacturer who will gladly talk to you all day long about how good their product is.

As to the further testing that we "allude" to, we needed to determine it would be appropriate for use in vivaria, such as would it melt under heat, catch fire, would it hold humidity, would the rubber smell affect reptiles behavior, diet, etc. so we ran a some tests all of which are not available for viewing as they are commercially sensitive and the property of livefoods by post ltd. 

But to give you a brief overview we housed a variety of species on rubbstrate, these included an occellated skink, bearded dragon, green tree python, yemen chameleon, bosc monitor and ground boas, we noted them over a period off a month to see if there were any alterations to there habits, feeding patterns etc. And its important to note that all of these animals are long term pets at LFBP HQ so we would notice if they suddenly started to react differently to the new substrate. 

For humidity tests we set up identical vivariums, one had rubbstrate and the other we used forest floor, then orchid bark plus a few others, 1 litre of water was sprayed onto the substrate and the RH was monitored until all of the moisture had complelety gone,

And we also did some ignition tests (even though the manufacturer had already told us the flash point was in excess of 300.c), we found it was impossible to ignite the rubbstrate with a spot bulb, the only severe change could be caused by direct contact with a spot bulb and this caused the rubber to go soft and melt, 

As for the consideration that a soft rubber flake would pass through easier than a wooden substrate, then no this has not been tested on a reptile as i believe forcing a creature to eat a wooden splinter and a rubber flake would be nothing short of cruelty just to confirm whats obvious, However if you would like to swallow a 1" splinter of wood and a 1" splinter of soft flake rubber rubbstrate please tell me which one sticks in your intestines.


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## GlasgowGecko

pink said:


> Well the rubber has been ingestion tested and toxicity tested to gain a "toy safe" rating, this has been conducted by the manufacturer as one of the primary uses of this mulch is in toddlers playgrounds - so if it safe for a small child to play in and swallow, I am pretty sure a reptile will withstand it - if you require full safety data I can point you in the direction of the manufacturer who will gladly talk to you all day long about how good their product is.
> 
> As to the further testing that we "allude" to, we needed to determine it would be appropriate for use in vivaria, such as would it melt under heat, catch fire, would it hold humidity, would the rubber smell affect reptiles behavior, diet, etc. so we ran a some tests all of which are not available for viewing as they are commercially sensitive and the property of livefoods by post ltd.
> 
> But to give you a brief overview we housed a variety of species on rubbstrate, these included an occellated skink, bearded dragon, green tree python, yemen chameleon, bosc monitor and ground boas, we noted them over a period off a month to see if there were any alterations to there habits, feeding patterns etc. And its important to note that all of these animals are long term pets at LFBP HQ so we would notice if they suddenly started to react differently to the new substrate.
> 
> For humidity tests we set up identical vivariums, one had rubbstrate and the other we used forest floor, then orchid bark plus a few others, 1 litre of water was sprayed onto the substrate and the RH was monitored until all of the moisture had complelety gone,
> 
> And we also did some ignition tests (even though the manufacturer had already told us the flash point was in excess of 300.c), we found it was impossible to ignite the rubbstrate with a spot bulb, the only severe change could be caused by direct contact with a spot bulb and this caused the rubber to go soft and melt,
> 
> As for the consideration that a soft rubber flake would pass through easier than a wooden substrate, then no this has not been tested on a reptile as i believe forcing a creature to eat a wooden splinter and a rubber flake would be nothing short of cruelty just to confirm whats obvious, However if you would like to swallow a 1" splinter of wood and a 1" splinter of soft flake rubber rubbstrate please tell me which one sticks in your intestines.


I'll be honest in saying I'm a little shocked at the tone of your response, my questions were genuine, and relevant. But as you have taken the time to respond, I will return a few thoughts on your answers.

Firstly I would suggest the internal physiology of a child and of a reptile are sufficiently different to make your initial statement "so if it safe for a small child to play in and swallow, I am pretty sure a reptile will withstand it" defunct. There are clearly more things to consider here, which perhaps you have, but this hasn't fully answered my question.

You second point also appears a little strange to me, I'm not entirely sure why the results of your "testing" are commercially sensitive. If you claim to have the only product which has been tested, then surely you should document those findings. While I appreciate this venture (although having taken a lot of time to this point) is still in its infancy, perhaps you can simply tell me a little more detail on experimental design if results are too sensitive.

The final paragraph is not only misleading, and unfounded it is also needlessly aggressive. Why is it obvious that it would cause less damage? Whatis the justification, or evidence for this claim?

Regards,
Andy


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## LFBP-NEIL

Also... I am getting this in before its thrown at me.. Rubber isnt a natural substrate - reptiles wouldnt live on rubber in the wild...No But... Reptiles also do not live in melamine faced chipboard enclosures, with plastic runners, glass doors, fibreglass drinking and feeding bowls, silk and plastic plants, silicone sealed interiors, glass lighting, with electric cables coated in plastics and rubber and metal fixings. There are plenty of non natural substances being used around our pets daily.


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## LFBP-NEIL

GlasgowGecko said:


> I'll be honest in saying I'm a little shocked at the tone of your response, my questions were genuine, and relevant. But as you have taken the time to respond, I will return a few thoughts on your answers.
> 
> Firstly I would suggest the internal physiology of a child and of a reptile are sufficiently different to make your initial statement "so if it safe for a small child to play in and swallow, I am pretty sure a reptile will withstand it" defunct. There are clearly more things to consider here, which perhaps you have, but this hasn't fully answered my question.
> 
> *What gives you concern that this could be toxic to reptiles? Its Harmless to humans - If you can give me a precise indication as to why you have a bee in your bonnet then please explain.*
> 
> 
> You second point also appears a little strange to me, I'm not entirely sure why the results of your "testing" are commercially sensitive. If you claim to have the only product which has been tested, then surely you should document those findings. While I appreciate this venture (although having taken a lot of time to this point) is still in its infancy, perhaps you can simply tell me a little more detail on experimental design if results are too sensitive.
> 
> *Why commercially sensitive - because we have taken the time to test this product we dont wany anyone ripping off anything we have done. I have told you the results of these tests, no reptiles died, no behaviour changed, none stopped feeding..*
> 
> 
> The final paragraph is not only misleading, and unfounded it is also needlessly aggressive. Why is it obvious that it would cause less damage? Whatis the justification, or evidence for this claim?
> 
> *Its not misleading at all in our opinion its safer to swallow a soft rubber flake than a splinter of wood, Stab yourself with a piece of sharp wood, and then stab yourself with a rubber - which one hurts???? which one do you think would stick in your insides???? needless to say both could cause impaction - but i know what one i would rather swallow*
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Andy


answers above


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## snowgoose

May I just ask if you are currently supplying your product to reptile keepers or have you only done your own testing thus far?


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## LFBP-NEIL

Its out there on the market if you want to buy some


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## GlasgowGecko

I'm really not sure why you think I'm attacking your product, I have asked you some genuine question, of which I am genuinely interested in the answers of. However you really aren't answering them.

I don't have a "bee in my bonnet", as a consumer I am surely entitled to ask questions about products aimed a people like me. One thing that does raise questions for me is certain commercial claims that you seem completely unable to defend without becoming aggressive. This unfortunately makes me think that there is a problem.

With regard to the tests, from what you have described, you can not claim to have product tested this. This is misleading, and certainly does not hold up to scrutiny. No body could "rip off" your product from learning the type of experimentation you have carried out, or in that fact from know actual, quantitative results.

Finally, I'm sure you realise there is a difference between "stabbing" yourself with wood and rubber, and a reptile with a significantly smaller digestive tract than a human ingesting either. Without appropriate testing, and this does not necessarily mean using animals, how can you make this claim? The answer surely has to be that you cannot.

Andy


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## snowgoose

pink said:


> Its out there on the market if you want to buy some


No I don't want to buy any. I was just asking a nice simple question. As are other people in this thread. Why would I want to buy any product that could potentially kill my pet?


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## LFBP-NEIL

why would it kill your pet?


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## sparkle

can i just check as i am confused..

are we syaing then noone knows what would happen if the flakes were injested by a reptile.. I am imaginging since this is still to happen.. there is no safety guage..

so its bought at owners risk the same as aspen or sand might be.. but without us knowing the exact components as such... whereas with sand and aspen for example to take just 2 substrates we do know the components..


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## LFBP-NEIL

GlasgowGecko said:


> I'm really not sure why you think I'm attacking your product, I have asked you some genuine question, of which I am genuinely interested in the answers of. However you really aren't answering them.
> 
> I don't have a "bee in my bonnet", as a consumer I am surely entitled to ask questions about products aimed a people like me. One thing that does raise questions for me is certain commercial claims that you seem completely unable to defend without becoming aggressive. This unfortunately makes me think that there is a problem.
> 
> With regard to the tests, from what you have described, you can not claim to have product tested this. This is misleading, and certainly does not hold up to scrutiny. No body could "rip off" your product from learning the type of experimentation you have carried out, or in that fact from know actual, quantitative results.
> 
> Finally, I'm sure you realise there is a difference between "stabbing" yourself with wood and rubber, and a reptile with a significantly smaller digestive tract than a human ingesting either. Without appropriate testing, and this does not necessarily mean using animals, how can you make this claim? The answer surely has to be that you cannot.
> 
> Andy


Not misleading anyone, I have quite clearly explained what tests we have done.. If you read the packaging and the website it clearly states there i san impaction risk with this product


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## LFBP-NEIL

sparkle said:


> can i just check as i am confused..
> 
> are we syaing then noone knows what would happen if the flakes were injested by a reptile.. I am imaginging since this is still to happen.. there is no safety guage..
> 
> so its bought at owners risk the same as aspen or sand might be.. but without us knowing the exact components as such... whereas with sand and aspen for example to take just 2 substrates we do know the components..


The packaging carries an impaction warning notice - somthing most wood based substrates do not. The components are Rubber coated with organic Food Dye


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## GlasgowGecko

pink said:


> Not misleading anyone, I have quite clearly explained what tests we have done.. If you read the packaging and the website it clearly states there i san impaction risk with this product


No I appreciate you have explained what you have done, but from what you have explained these do not constitute evidence. Perhaps your documented results would clear this up, but this is not forth coming, and so I my honest opinion your claims to have tested the product ARE misleading.

Andy


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## snowgoose

choking, impaction, etc the normal ways substrates can kill. You have not proven it wont kill my pet so yeah, as Sparkle said, it would be bought at the owners risk and I'm not risking it.


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## snowgoose

pink said:


> Rubbstrate is also coloured using organic pigments that are non toxic - No glues, dyes, solvents or paints are used.


Its colours using a dye you just stated that.


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## LFBP-NEIL

snowgoose said:


> choking, impaction, etc the normal ways substrates can kill. You have not proven it wont kill my pet so yeah, as Sparkle said, it would be bought at the owners risk and I'm not risking it.


I cant prove it wont choke or impact your pet as it might do if they eat it, thats why we print the impaction and feeding advice on the package, But then so can Wood, sand, aspen, orchid bark, moss, etc etc etc - all can choke and kill a reptile - the only 100% safe substrate is NO SUBTRATE, you clearly dont want to buy any of this, so why post on the thread? 

you dont want to risk it, great, stick to what your using,


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## LFBP-NEIL

snowgoose said:


> Its colours using a dye you just stated that.


Its an organic food colourant, that is applied using a patented process, its not a dye as in the sense of chemically dyed,


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## LFBP-NEIL

GlasgowGecko said:


> No I appreciate you have explained what you have done, but from what you have explained these do not constitute evidence. Perhaps your documented results would clear this up, but this is not forth coming, and so I my honest opinion your claims to have tested the product ARE misleading.
> 
> Andy


Ok, So i have told you what tests we have done, you dont belive me, i could show you printed paper with dates, times observations and photographs - but then how do you know thats all not made up??? Livefoods By Post Ltd have been going for many years, we have many customers all over the country that know me, and know i dont bullshit so if you cant take my word then whats the point.


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## snowgoose

As someone who runs / owns or whatever you do in regards to Livefoods by post. You don't seem to sell yourself as being very professional and you always seem to have some problem everytime someone says anything about your product.


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## GlasgowGecko

pink said:


> Ok, So i have told you what tests we have done, you dont belive me, i could show you printed paper with dates, times observations and photographs - but then how do you know thats all not made up??? Livefoods By Post Ltd have been going for many years, we have many customers all over the country that know me, and know i dont bullshit so if you cant take my word then whats the point.


Ok, so I'm really not sure how to convince you that my questions are not, and never have been a personal attack, on you or your product. I'm simply asking the type of questions any consumer is likely to ask, and these are not as in depth as a governing body, or licensing body would ask, especially when certain specific claims are being made.

What you have told me of the tests (which incidentally I do believe you have carried out), with the best will in the world you have not given any quantitative data that backs up your claims. It is not a matter of not believing you, and have no feelings either way, but you simply cannot claim to have the only tested product of its kind based on the results you have given. As I have stated, perhaps the data does exist, but the consumers surely cannot be expected to just except it.

Again, this is not a personal attack, if anything it is an emotive quest for further understanding of a product that has potential.

Regards,
Andy


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

snowgoose said:


> As someone who runs / owns or whatever you do in regards to Livefoods by post. You don't seem to sell yourself as being very professional and you always seem to have some problem everytime someone says anything about your product.


I own livefoods by post, why should i give a professional response to a post such as 



> choking, impaction, etc the normal ways substrates can kill. You have not proven it wont kill my pet so yeah, as Sparkle said, it would be bought at the owners risk and I'm not risking it.


I am not trying to prove it wont kill your pet, this thread is about answering questions on rubbstrate, i have answered your questions, you didnt like the answers, your not going to buy it - end of, put your pitch fork down and move onto another thread. 

I have answered all the questions put to me honestly on this thread, it annoys me when people find problems that dont exist.


----------



## snowgoose

No You haven't answered my question. Do you currently supply Rubbstrate to any reptile keepers?


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

GlasgowGecko said:


> Ok, so I'm really not sure how to convince you that my questions are not, and never have been a personal attack, on you or your product. I'm simply asking the type of questions any consumer is likely to ask, and these are not as in depth as a governing body, or licensing body would ask, especially when certain specific claims are being made.
> 
> What you have told me of the tests (which incidentally I do believe you have carried out), with the best will in the world you have not given any quantitative data that backs up your claims. It is not a matter of not believing you, and have no feelings either way, but you simply cannot claim to have the only tested product of its kind based on the results you have given. As I have stated, perhaps the data does exist, but the consumers surely cannot be expected to just except it.
> 
> Again, this is not a personal attack, if anything it is an emotive quest for further understanding of a product that has potential.
> 
> Regards,
> Andy


As rubbstrate is currently the only rubber reptile substrate, i can quite honestly say it is the only rubber substrate aimed at reptiles, and it has passed the tests we subjected it to, I belive my claims to rubbstrates capabilities and how we tested these capabilities to be very easily understood, please feel free to try again if there is anything you want clearing up.. Perhaps rather than saying tested for reptiles, i should have said passed our specific tests we felt were important if using this with reptiles.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

snowgoose said:


> No You haven't answered my question. Do you currently supply Rubbstrate to any reptile keepers?


Yes we do


----------



## GlasgowGecko

pink said:


> As rubbstrate is currently the only rubber reptile substrate, i can quite honestly say it is the only rubber substrate aimed at reptiles, and it has passed the tests we subjected it to, I belive my claims to rubbstrates capabilities and how we tested these capabilities to be very easily understood, please feel free to try again if there is anything you want clearing up.. *Perhaps rather than saying tested for reptiles, i should have said passed our specific tests we felt were important if using this with reptiles.*


I think in certian circumstances this statement would be more appropriate, it is suitably general, but does not make a claim which could be interprited as being a 'offically' tested by an external body.

I know we seem to be going round in circles here, but you really haven't given me any quantative data, or even any suggestion as to what "passing" your tests means. How was it assessed, is it repeatable, or statistically significant. What were the sample sizes you used?

There are a variety of questions that simply are not answerable from the information you have given.

Kind regards,
Andy


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think in certian circumstances this statement would be more appropriate, it is suitably general, but does not make a claim which could be interprited as being a 'offically' tested by an external body.
> 
> I know we seem to be going round in circles here, but you really haven't given me any quantative data, or even any suggestion as to what "passing" your tests means. How was it assessed, is it repeatable, or statistically significant. What were the sample sizes you used?
> 
> There are a variety of questions that simply are not answerable from the information you have given.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andy


OK, so if thats how you interprited any claims i made then i can see where the confusion comes from, As far as i am aware there is no external body for testing reptile substrates but if there is please advise me and i will send them a sample.

The tests we carried out were very straight forward, 

1, does it catch fire under vivarium conditions - i believe i answered this in an earlier post

2, does it affect reptiles feeding, now there was no point in say ordering in 10 beardies, and putting each one on a different substrate as we wouldnt have known each beardies history, so we took a selction of our "pets" here and for a month put them on rubbstrate, all of these pets have been here for a long time so we know there feeding regimes. During the test period none of these species (mentioned in a previous post) feeding patterns changed. - test passed no animals feeding was affected

3, being rubber we were concerned about the smell (covered in an earlier post), would it affect the reptiles, would it harm them? would it affect there behaviour? so we observed the animals for a month and no changes in behaviour were observed and all the animals are unharmed. - test passed - no animals were showing changes in behaviour due to the rubber smell

4, ingestion - the rubbstrate is identical in appearance to forest floor (a brand name of Zoo Med) then the impaction risk will be the same, how to we deduce this - the particles are the same size. But we observed that the rubbstrate is soft and flexible and wood isnt. - test passed - rubbstrate is no more impation risk than any other wood substrate

There was also the test on humidity capabilities, that had no safety relevance and was done as previously mentioned


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Having just re-read this thread i would just like to clear up one of my posts that could probably be misread 



> Well the rubber has been ingestion tested and toxicity tested to gain a "toy safe" rating, this has been conducted by the manufacturer as one of the primary uses of this mulch is in toddlers playgrounds - so if it *safe for a small child to play in and swallow, I am pretty sure a reptile will withstand it* - if you require full safety data I can point you in the direction of the manufacturer who will gladly talk to you all day long about how good their product is.


At this point i was referring to toxicity of rubber not impaction risk, so to clear up

Rubbstrate has been tested for toxicity and ingenstion in humans, Rubbstrate has not been tested for ingestion in reptiles and has and never will be sold as a "safe to ingest" substrate - there is an impaction risk with rubbstrate comparable to all other wood substrates.

finally it seems that when I made the observation that soft rubber flakes should be less risk at causing impaction than hard wood flakes, it was taken as an official claim on safety this isnt an official claim on safety and after this was misunderstood i have removed this observation from the official rubbstrate website, this was merely an observation that rubber is soft and flexible and that wood is hard, sharp and pointy.


----------



## Danny_mcr

tbh honest i may consider this, if you send me a sample i will try it out. i have had problems when i first started out i had to solve substrate sticking to feeds now thats long gone i don't mind using this product as feeding times don't involve substrate. will try this but only on one snake with newspaper as a base and tell you how i found it: victory: if it works out it could be an essential for substrate in the future: victory:


----------



## loxocemus

its a very interesting idea you have, the ultimate in eco bedding, you only need buy once  the only problem is poop getting in between, but thats the same with every substrate, i think the ingestion worrys are no different than other substrates, ie if ur pet ingests something, its the keepers fault for not preventing it, it only takes 2 mins to put a sheet of paper down, food, stand back, let them dive in (i used to keep bluetongues, they literally dive with thier mouths open, bless em) i think whats in peoples mind is the image of thier pet eating a bit of rubber, but when they use bark they dont have a mental image of fluffy with half a tree in her mouth, its the rubber bit, u have to get over it and realise all u have to do is follow ur normal routines, cautions and practices and u can have a happy rubberised pet (so to speak).

probably the most original idea iv seen in a good while, how the hell did u think of it?, smelled burning rubber and gazed over at the beardie or something? 

hope it does well for you.

rgds
edward



pink said:


> Just launched on our website a new product called RubbStrate - reusable reptile substrate more details here RubbStrate - Re-useable Reptile Substrate


----------



## Jinja

I'm seriously thinking of trying this in one of my snake vivs.

Get rid of the pitchforks people...!!


----------



## sparkle

so in summary as I said earlier which i think is a balanced fair point.. it is bought at owners own risk as any other substrate.. the only difference is with this substrate and others this one has not undergone the injestion test.. which noone would forcefully or meaningfully do but which will as with any other substrate happen at some stage...

I can see this rubber type substrate being more appropriate for snakes than lizards if I am honest and certainly would find it difficult to feed a snake on it withought the concern it may miss the mouse and get a mouthful of the rubber.. that said however for thiose who tub feed their snakes and lizards it may be a good option..

my only other worry would be my lizards all associate black and dark small things with insects so much so even my nails if painted black they have a go.. since the rubber is small the larger lizards I have such as water dragons and beardie may move the substrate.. think it is an insect and specifically try to eat it..

as suggested earlier the ohter issue is when the animal pees and poos if it then moves over the rubber substrate it could spread it more easily around the viv and back onto itself as there are no " absorption" qualities...

I think in summary id definately avoid it for ALL my lizards BUT possibly be tempted to try it for snakes as long as I was not an owner who fed within the vivarium.. as I am I would need to consider changing the feeding of the snakes I do have ( which is only 2) 

I hope thats a fair summary


----------



## sharpstrain

I have read the thread in full and just have one concern which relates to toxicity and ingestion.

I get the child safe thing - my q is does that test take into to account the timescale the product would be in the stomach - ie a human child would usually empty their bowel every day, bit a snake could be once a month or sometimes more. So I guess what I am asking in is does it matter how long the substrate is in the gut?

I know this has been a difficult thread and want to say this is a genuine q - I am not trying to cause a prob I would just like to be clear on the level of safety befor eI consider buying


----------



## loxocemus

this is the bit i dont understand people asking, a 2" x 1" piece of bark in reptile stomach, bad, yes, fatal, possible, passable, unlikey, a 2" x 1" piece of rubber, bad, yes, fatal, possible, passable, unlikey, its no more a threat than anything similar sized ingested. my point dont let it ingest it, no matter what its made of, id be more worried about a chunk of bark than a chunk of rubber of similar size, thier both bad ideas to swallow, but the rubber isnt going to take flight and shove itself down the animals throat. so im not sure where this kryptonite mindset comes from, yup its rubber, but we keep rainforest/desert/savanah animals in a conti box under glass bulbs behind glass windows, with eastenders playing on the telly, its a bit late to start thinking natural.

whatever trouble an animal could get itself into with this rubber stuff so it could also do with whatever else u chose for its ass to sit on, unless u go for paper (<thats for the smartasses).

rgds
edward




sharpstrain said:


> I have read the thread in full and just have one concern which relates to toxicity and ingestion.
> 
> I get the child safe thing - my q is does that test take into to account the timescale the product would be in the stomach - ie a human child would usually empty their bowel every day, bit a snake could be once a month or sometimes more. So I guess what I am asking in is does it matter how long the substrate is in the gut?
> 
> I know this has been a difficult thread and want to say this is a genuine q - I am not trying to cause a prob I would just like to be clear on the level of safety befor eI consider buying


----------



## sparkle

loxocemus said:


> this is the bit i dont understand people asking, a 2" x 1" piece of bark in reptile stomach, bad, yes, fatal, possible, passable, unlikey, a 2" x 1" piece of rubber, bad, yes, fatal, possible, passable, unlikey, its no more a threat than anything similar sized ingested. my point dont let it ingest it, no matter what its made of, id be more worried about a chunk of bark than a chunk of rubber of similar size, thier both bad ideas to swallow, but the rubber isnt going to take flight and shove itself down the animals throat. so im not sure where this kryptonite mindset comes from, yup its rubber, but we keep rainforest/desert/savanah animals in a conti box under glass bulbs behind glass windows, with eastenders playing on the telly, its a bit late to start thinking natural.
> 
> whatever trouble an animal could get itself into with this rubber stuff so it could also do with whatever else u chose for its ass to sit on, unless u go for paper (<thats for the smartasses).
> 
> rgds
> edward


 
that seems fine for snakes ed... but doesnt work for lizards especially ones like Water dragons and beardies.. if they jump around or move on bark type substrate they do see it as a moving dark thing.. and this bark would move and be shifter around in a similat fashion .. even more so in umltiple occupanct tanks... very like the motion of insects.. a twitchy movement is often what the lizards react to when the insect is still , I have seen this behaviour and now do not use ANY bark or splinter shaped type substrate in those tanks after one WD injested a small piece of thin bark. I use eco earth for my WDs which they love digging in as its very deep.. around 5 inches or so.. and large sqaure slate tiles for my beardie..

i genuinely believe this subsrate would be better suited to snakes which you can indeed place paper down to feed the mouse..

feeding insects to lizards this is not possible as they hunt the insects all over the tank..


----------



## Slurm

i wonder if a rep is more likley to eat this rubber as its soft like its prey.

Also what are the advantages at buying it thru LFBP when if i search around i can find the same material(made by same people) already in a garden centre at cheaper price.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

sharpstrain said:


> I have read the thread in full and just have one concern which relates to toxicity and ingestion.
> 
> I get the child safe thing - my q is does that test take into to account the timescale the product would be in the stomach - ie a human child would usually empty their bowel every day, bit a snake could be once a month or sometimes more. So I guess what I am asking in is does it matter how long the substrate is in the gut?
> 
> I know this has been a difficult thread and want to say this is a genuine q - I am not trying to cause a prob I would just like to be clear on the level of safety befor eI consider buying


 
This is good question, this product has not been tested for this. But we are not promoting it as an igestible substrate, and the impaction risk is going to outweigh any chemical risk posed (in my opinion - no i dont have statistical data to back this up for anyone who asks).

At the end of the day its rubber, rubber that has been classed a safe for use with humans (by the manufacturer not by myself), rubber is used all around us all day in a variety of products and i have searched and searched on toxicity in rubber and can find no reason to believe that this rubber would pose a serious health threat. (i know there are many components that go into making up rubber, and no i cant give you the exact molecular breakdown of the rubber - but the manufacturer probably could).

My conversations with the guys who make this went along the lines of, this is going to be used with live animals, are there any chemicals / processes used that could be detrimental to health - their reply which they can back up with testing is that it is as safe as a childs toy, 

There is a danger from inhaling Rubber dust - this could (and only could - not will) lodge in the lungs and go onto cancer, rubber dust is created during the flaking process. The packet carries a clear warning to wash before first use to remove any rubber dust. 

If anybody seriously wants a small free sample then please PM me.


----------



## sparkle

Slurm said:


> i wonder if a rep is more likley to eat this rubber as its soft like its prey.
> 
> Also what are the advantages at buying it thru LFBP when if i search around i can find the same material(made by same people) already in a garden centre at cheaper price.


 
that was my concern with lizards... small soft spindly dark coloured and will move easily as they bop about the tank.. hence why i wondered at it being better for snakes.. and a no-no for lizards.. seems too insect like to be safe from probable easy injestion by lizards and I dont fancy mine being the first to test out the injestion theory..

i may be interested in looking at it for snakes though.. but as you say if it is the same as you can buy in garden centres for definate its poiintless buying it for a higher price... are you sure the garden centre ones are the same ???


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Slurm said:


> i wonder if a rep is more likley to eat this rubber as its soft like its prey.
> 
> Also what are the advantages at buying it thru LFBP when if i search around i can find the same material(made by same people) already in a garden centre at cheaper price.


Ok, yes you can buy this from some garden centres as landscaping mulch at a lower price, if you can find it great. I am not denying that. You can usually only buy it in large quantities (i.e by the tonne) but some garden centres are stocking it in 10kg bags. 

the difference here is that we are selling it in 1kg bags, because not everyone needs 10kg of the stuff, and the 1kg bags have already been "mixed" i.e forest mix is a blend of three colours, to create this you would need to buy 30kg, which would be a bit expensive for a small RUB or terrarium. But like i say earlier once we get it going we will have it available in the larger bags at a lower price for all the people. 

all of the packaging states that it is made from ecoscape mulch so there are no secrets to this, we are simply making it available in pre-mixed colours in smaller quantities so that it is easily accessable to the reptile keeper. So we set up a deal with ecoscape to repackage their mulch in smaller bags as reptile bedding, we have their permission and the sole rights to do this as they were not interested in messing around with small quantities.


----------



## sparkle

pink said:


> Ok, yes you can buy this from some garden centres as landscaping mulch at a lower price, if you can find it great. I am not denying that. You can usually only buy it in large quantities (i.e by the tonne) but some garden centres are stocking it in 10kg bags.
> 
> the difference here is that we are selling it in 1kg bags, because not everyone needs 10kg of the stuff, and the 1kg bags have already been "mixed" i.e forest mix is a blend of three colours, to create this you would need to buy 30kg, which would be a bit expensive for a small RUB or terrarium. But like i say earlier once we get it going we will have it available in the larger bags at a lower price for all the people.
> 
> all of the packaging states that it is made from ecoscape mulch so there are no secrets to this, we are simply making it available in pre-mixed colours in smaller quantities so that it is easily accessable to the reptile keeper. So we set up a deal with ecoscape to repackage their mulch in smaller bags as reptile bedding, we have their permission and the sole rights to do this as they were not interested in messing around with small quantities.


 Looks like Homebase do it I may pop over today and buy some and trial it on the royals viv .. its very inexpensive at £7.98 per 
it says on the website

Product detail
*Customer Reviews 
*




Perfect for use in children's play areas.
Easy to lay, and environmentally friendly.
Helps to curb weeds, mould and fungus.
Wire free, and non-toxic.
Moisture resistant, which means play areas can be used more quickly after rain.
Colour safe with a 10 year guarantee against colour loss.
Safe if ingested.
 
http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wc...rtNumber=014228&Trail=searchtext>RUBBER+MULCH

is this the same stuff


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## LFBP-NEIL

If its ecoscape mulch, then yes it is, It says £7.98 per.. but doesnt say per what? if it is 10KG bags then I urge everyone in england to go hit homebase and buy as much as you can as thats less than half the wholesale price of this stuff.


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## sparkle

pink said:


> If its ecoscape mulch, then yes it is, It says £7.98 per.. but doesnt say per what? if it is 10KG bags then I urge everyone in england to go hit homebase and buy as much as you can as thats less than half the wholesale price of this stuff.


 heres a thread from last year too could be different stuff not sure.. i shall check who manufactures it and compare.. 

10kg bag coloured rubber mulch 2 different colours was £14.99 per bag, then £5 now 5 bags for £15 @ Homebase - in-store only - HotUKDeals Forum


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## LFBP-NEIL

I have seen that link before, it seems to relate to a computer glitch when homebase were practically giving the stuff away - shame i didnt know about it then!


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## sparkle

pink said:


> I have seen that link before, it seems to relate to a computer glitch when homebase were practically giving the stuff away - shame i didnt know about it then!


 actually im really chuffed I saw this thread..

Im going to use it next year in the garden for the play area for my children.. :2thumb:

seems expensive to cover a LARGE area but you get it in funky colours for playgorunds...


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## Barney_M

everyone has stated points i was going to read however i would like to say something becasue i think its dead important.
i would rather a lizard or snake swollowed a 0.5-1cm piece of aspen or cypress mulch than rubber.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Barney_M said:


> everyone has stated points i was going to read however i would like to say something becasue i think its dead important.
> i would rather a lizard or snake swollowed a 0.5-1cm piece of aspen or cypress mulch than rubber.


everyones entitled to there own opinions and emotions on this, and i fully understand some people cant get their head around the fact its just rubber, can i ask why you would be happier it swallowed a hard sliver of wood compared to a soft bendy piece of rubber?


----------



## Jinja

pink said:


> everyones entitled to there own opinions and emotions on this, and i fully understand some people cant get their head around the fact its just rubber, can i ask why you would be happier it swallowed a hard sliver of wood compared to a soft bendy piece of rubber?


Because like a few people on these forums they like to comment way before they engage their brain and even then they still don't have a clue as to what the hell they're talking about and merely comment just to say something, yet say absolutely nothing at all....!!!


----------



## Barney_M

pink said:


> everyones entitled to there own opinions and emotions on this, and i fully understand some people cant get their head around the fact its just rubber, can i ask why you would be happier it swallowed a hard sliver of wood compared to a soft bendy piece of rubber?



fact is i imagine (you said bits are 1cm so lets go with that) 1cm of wood, aspen or whatever will pass easier through digestion that rubber. i know personally as a human i would rather swollow wood or something natural than rubber. just my opinions...


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Barney_M said:


> fact is i imagine (you said bits are 1cm so lets go with that) 1cm of wood, aspen or whatever will pass easier through digestion that rubber. i know personally as a human i would rather swollow wood or something natural than rubber. just my opinions...


straight up? i admire you. Seriously though imagine you are sat at a table, in front of you is a 2" long half inch thick piece of bark, it has a pointy end with jagged edges, you pick it up, press the pointy end into your flesh, feel the sharpness of the wood begin to prick and pierce your skin. ALongside side it is an identical piece of matter, you dont know its rubber, it doesnt look like rubber, you pick it up, the slight smell of rubber gives away its true identity, you examine the sharp looking edges only to discover they flex away from your touch, you try to stab yourself in the hand - the seemingly sharp piece of wood bends in half. you put the pieces back on the table as you feel the gun go to your head, "choose which one and swallow it whole" you are told - which would you choose?

Surely i must get some credit for that piece of creative writing!!! But seriously though _its sold as a non ingestable substrate and the packet clearly states - always feed from a feeding dish or outside of the vivarium, impaction warning, if swallowed remove and seek vetinary advice_ - which is a hell of a lot more than most substrates have on them.


----------



## ShaneLuvsMonitors

Barney_M said:


> fact is i imagine (you said bits are 1cm so lets go with that) 1cm of wood, aspen or whatever will pass easier through digestion that rubber. i know personally as a human i would rather swollow wood or something natural than rubber. just my opinions...


Actually mate wood is far more likely to cause all sorts of horrendous problems to your digestive tract if swallowed for example it cant be detected with MRIs as it swells and becomes the same density as the surrounding tissue :whistling2:


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## jack_rep

I think people have been unduly harsh on the seller here. I think this probably developed from the seller's adverse reaction to a couple of the early questions. Appearing slightly over defensive put some peoples backs up, and as a result them people then went on to be probably more harsh and go "pitch folk" mob style more then they really needed to be.

In fairness to the seller however, never once did he make any outlandish claims that this product has being rigorously tested by some form of official independent body. I saw nothing at all in his posts that was in anyway misleading. He was always transparent, describing throughout some of the methods he used to test this product. Yes the methods may seem crude to some, but each method was enough to prove the point that the seller was trying to make. Points don't need to be put into lengthy quantitative "official" reports to be proven! I dont have to write a report for you to prove to you what colour my car is? I just show you my car! I would also suggest that this product has been subjected to a dam sight more testing with actual reptiles then 90% of the products in the exotic pet trade have.

The seller even acknowledges the risk of impaction if swallowed! If you can find any other substrate of which the manufacturer acknowledges this risk on the packaging I would be very surprised.

In my view any innovation like this with a clear view to not only save the consumer money in the long run, but to make reptile keeping easier, should be applauded! Its good to see smaller business like this are taking such steps, and not just leaving it all up to larger companies like exo terra to come up with the innovation. 

I look forward to giving this product a try!


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## amylovesreptiles

That sounds really good, ima' look into getting some  ...


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## GlasgowGecko

jack_rep said:


> In fairness to the seller however, never once did he make any outlandish claims that this product has being rigorously tested by some form of official independent body. I saw nothing at all in his posts that was in anyway misleading. He was always transparent, describing throughout some of the methods he used to test this product. Yes the methods may seem crude to some, but each method was enough to prove the point that the seller was trying to make. Points don't need to be put into lengthy quantitative "official" reports to be proven! I dont have to write a report for you to prove to you what colour my car is? I just show you my car! I would also suggest that this product has been subjected to a dam sight more testing with actual reptiles then 90% of the products in the exotic pet trade have.


I assume that this was aimed at me, and in my opinion, my questions were fair. The OP stated that this product was the only rubber substrate tested for reptile use. I simply asked to see the results. Unfortunately these results were not forthcoming, simply because the methods of testing were insufficient to back up any of the claims that were being made. As for the OP being "transparent" I have to disagree, but then perhaps that is a matter of opinion. There is no scientific merit to the tests carried out here, and so for me the claims that tests have been passed is pointless, and misleading.
As for your comparison to the colour of your car, this is not workable comparison, and for me removes any credence from your argument.

Andy


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Here we go again...

what claims have I made???

I have never claimed this to be an ingestible substrate

the claims we make on rubbstrate are 


its rubber
its re-useable
it does not rot
it does not mould
it eliminates substrate mites
it will save you money
its non toxic and has a toy safety rating
If you look at the rubbstrate website these are the only claims we make on this product, I did however make an observation that rubber should and note the word SHOULD pass through easier than wood as its soft and bendy not hard and sharp.

All of these claims have been tested by the manufacturer to British safety standard levels....

I also explained i had subjected it to my own "tests" or "trials" or "looky see" whatever you want to call them, I have never claimed that these were in-depth scientific experiments, merely assesments of suitability for the intended purpose....

As a seller of these goods I have to satisfy that the item is fit for the purpose and doesnt make any false or misleading claims, we performed our own due diligence in the form of our own tests to satisfy ourselves.

I will not release copies of these due diligence tests, trials whatever you want to call them, because performing these tests is all part of bringing a product to market, if i were to release these then a competitor could take these tests and use them in their own product develeopent, saving themsleves a lot of time and money. 

But there is nothing cloak and dagger about what tests i done, as i have explained what was done (above and beyond what is legally required) i just dont want to hand these over on a plate. 

There is no scientific merit to my tests, but my tests do not relate to any claims made on the product, they are merely satisfying my own questions. 

As for my claim that this is the only reptile substrate tested on reptiles, i challenge you to dispute this by 1, showing me another rubber substrate for reptiles, 2, remember i didnt specify what tests and who done the testing...


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

pink said:


> Rubbstrate is effectively a rubber landscaping mulch, however rubbstrate is made from flaked solid rubber chunks not recycled tyres - so there isnt any contamination from metal wire or braid. Rubbstrate is also coloured using organic pigments that are non toxic - No glues, dyes, solvents or paints are used. The process used to create rubbstrate creates flakes that are identical to wood mulch - not coarse lumps or chips. Its also been fire safety tested. As well as this *we have conducted our own tests on the product to asses its suitability for use with reptiles* and its available in smaller bag sizes (1kg and 5kg) than landscape mulch plus rubbstrate is colour blended to create a natural looking forest mix.


In fact this is my original post that seems to have ruffled your feathers, I will highlight the specific bit, now please how do you get outlandish claim from that? 

Perhaps my style of posting comes accross as aggressive, but i wont be belittled or bullied by fancy words and fancy ideas and suggestions that because i havent sent this product off to NASA for full evaluation that its not an acceptable product. I find your posting style to be highly patronising, but hey your probably a great bloke in real life and a lot gets lost in the forum translation, im not as rude in real life!


----------



## Fixx

What sort of emissions does it give off when heated as in an enclosed situation like a vivarium there could be the possibility of a build up of vapours released from the heated rubber which may or may not be detrimental to the inhabitant.


----------



## GlasgowGecko

OK, I really don't intend to get into an argument with you, nor was my last message intended to provoke any type of response. It was simply meant to defend my right to question in response to an earlier post.

I admit I am a little bemused at how defensive and aggressive you become when questioned, and I really do not see the necessity for it, or even the catalyst.

But as you have replied in detail, I think a response is fair.

*"I also explained i had subjected it to my own "tests" or "trials" whatever you want to call them, I have never claimed that these were in-depth scientific assement of suitability for the intended purpose...."*

My aim has nver been to question the suitability of the product, I have only ever asked about you methods.
*
"As a seller of these goods I have to satisfy that the item is fit for the purpose and doesnt make any false or misleading claims, we performed our own due diligence in the form of our own tests to satisfy ourselves."
* 
Whislt I agree with the sentiment, the tests you have carried would not satisfy me of this. Again I am not saying that the product is not capable of it however.

*"I will not release copies of these due diligence tests, trials whatever you want to call them, because performing these tests is all part of bringing a product to market, if i were to release these then a competitor could take these tests and use them in their own product develeopent, saving themsleves a lot of time and money."

*I must be a little naive, but I do not know how the tests you have carried out would in any way help a rival bring a similar product to market themselves, however this may well be the case.

*"But there is nothing cloak and dagger about what tests i done, as i have explained what was done (above and beyond what is legally required) i just dont want to hand these over on a plate."*


This I just don't understand, if the tests showed anything, then surely releasing the results in the appropriate manner would actually help.

*"As for my claim that this is the only reptile substrate tested on reptiles, i challenge you to dispute this by 1, showing me another rubber substrate for reptiles, 2, remember i didnt specify what tests and who done the testing..."*

Well I have two points here, the first is that I do not agree that the tests you have conducted have any scientific merit, and so I have to refute the statement that they are indeed tested. Further to that, if we were to agree that this does constitute a test, then absolutely anyone could test a rival product in exactly the same way...

Perhaps at some point my genuine questions have been misinterprited as an attack. I want to reassure you that this is not, and never has been the case. I have asked through sincere interest only. I would also be prepared to talk to you about setting up tests which do have scientific merit and would be quatitive if you were interested.


Unfortunately after the computer issues this response is not as detailed as the first, but I feel the main points are addressed.

Andy


----------



## GlasgowGecko

Ok so I don't know what happened here, but I will try to amend it.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

could you do quick edit, something went wrong


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Fixx said:


> What sort of emissions does it give off when heated as in an enclosed situation like a vivarium there could be the possibility of a build up of vapours released from the heated rubber which may or may not be detrimental to the inhabitant.


This was my only real concern with this product, thats why i put my own animals on it, all i can say is none have died, there is a rubber smell which does go after time, smells very much like a new pair of rubber soled trainers. So i can say there is no instant fuming out of an animal, is there a long term risk? I dont know for 100% definate but after researching all the other components that go into vivs such as melamine and all the gasses that they put out, and the gasses that the plastic in RUBS give out then i dont believe (here i go again) the risk to be any greater, as i would expect any fumes to do there worst when they are at there strongest when the product is brand new.


the product has been tested (not by me) to the following standard.. 

BS EN 71-3:1995. (toy safety)
This part of the European Standards which specifies requirements for the migration
of the elements arsenic, mercury, selenium, chromium, cadmium, lead and barium
from materials.​


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

well we can go round in circles all day about how we have interprited each others posts but as we dont seem to be getting anywhere, i will move straight onto the last point you make.

If you wish to conduct your own independant tests that do have scientific merit on this product then please feel free to pm your details and the quantity you require and i will send you some.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

another quick reply to fixx's earlier post...

I have found research carried out on rubber workers, working in a rubber factory for 10 years, the workers were tested on how breathing the rubber fumes and dust affected their breathing, you can read this here Pulmonary effects of inhaled dust and fumes: expos...[Am J Ind Med. 1998] - PubMed Result

this obviously doesnt give a yes no answer, but sets my mind at ease, and remember we advise that the rubber is washed before first use to remove any dust. 

glasgow gecko if you know of any way of testing long term health effects on reptiles through breathing rubber smells please let me know (seriously)


----------



## sparkle

pink said:


> another quick reply to fixx's earlier post...
> 
> I have found research carried out on rubber workers, working in a rubber factory for 10 years, the workers were tested on how breathing the rubber fumes and dust affected their breathing, you can read this here Pulmonary effects of inhaled dust and fumes: expos...[Am J Ind Med. 1998] - PubMed Result
> 
> this obviously doesnt give a yes no answer, but sets my mind at ease, and remember we advise that the rubber is washed before first use to remove any dust.
> 
> glasgow gecko if you know of any way of testing long term health effects on reptiles through breathing rubber smells please let me know (seriously)


i think the issue is, in a sense, you are both using as your arguement the same point.. hence why you feel you are going round in circels..


there is NO test on the effect of a reptile inhaling the rubber fume/smell in closed tanks with little ventilation..

arguing your case using the exact same point forces a never ending debate..
theres nothing to prove its unsafe.. or safe..

simple really.. 

so its about risk.. as always with animal keeping.. how to lower risk or decide on risk.. thats what is more the issue UNTIL proper tests have been carried out and the results released.. 

until genuine scientific tests have been done... nothing can prove or disprove safety


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

yeah i suppose so, but please be assured this isnt gun-ho any risks are minimal risks, i dont think i can really add anymore about the product, I am sending out samples to all those who requested them on Tuesday and look forward to their opinions, and do genuinely welcome anyone to approach me with a view to conducting independent analysis of the product.


----------



## Jinja

jack_rep said:


> I think people have been unduly harsh on the seller here. I think this probably developed from the seller's adverse reaction to a couple of the early questions. Appearing slightly over defensive put some peoples backs up, and as a result them people then went on to be probably more harsh and go "pitch folk" mob style more then they really needed to be.
> 
> In fairness to the seller however, never once did he make any outlandish claims that this product has being rigorously tested by some form of official independent body. I saw nothing at all in his posts that was in anyway misleading. He was always transparent, describing throughout some of the methods he used to test this product. Yes the methods may seem crude to some, but each method was enough to prove the point that the seller was trying to make. Points don't need to be put into lengthy quantitative "official" reports to be proven! I dont have to write a report for you to prove to you what colour my car is? I just show you my car! I would also suggest that this product has been subjected to a dam sight more testing with actual reptiles then 90% of the products in the exotic pet trade have.
> 
> The seller even acknowledges the risk of impaction if swallowed! If you can find any other substrate of which the manufacturer acknowledges this risk on the packaging I would be very surprised.
> 
> In my view any innovation like this with a clear view to not only save the consumer money in the long run, but to make reptile keeping easier, should be applauded! Its good to see smaller business like this are taking such steps, and not just leaving it all up to larger companies like exo terra to come up with the innovation.
> 
> I look forward to giving this product a try!


Extremely well said.....:2thumb:


----------



## jack_rep

GlasgowGecko said:


> I assume that this was aimed at me, and in my opinion, my questions were fair. The OP stated that this product was the only rubber substrate tested for reptile use. *I simply asked to see the results.* Unfortunately these results were not forthcoming, simply because the methods of testing were insufficient to back up any of the claims that were being made. As for the OP being "transparent" I have to disagree, but then perhaps that is a matter of opinion. There is no scientific merit to the tests carried out here, and so for me the claims that tests have been passed is pointless, and misleading.
> As for your comparison to the colour of your car, this is not workable comparison, and for me removes any credence from your argument.
> 
> Andy


I think this stems from the fact you got annoyed from the OP being a bit defensive - which to be fair i do sympathise with. But i think your expecting some sort of empirical data in a shiny laminated official document, when in fact there isnt any. The fact is there doesn't need to be. The methods used and described were sufficient to prove the point there were trying to make. 

The seller wasn't measuring the speed of light. There is no need for any data analysis here. But if it makes you feel better im sure if you order some the seller would be happy to print and laminate this thread for you if you think it feels more "official" for you. :2thumb:


----------



## Leliel

I think this could be worth a try, particularly with snakes, i use orchid bark at the moment, and if this stuff is as good as its claimed then it could be a real money maker. i have a quick question though, you claim to have done tests under a light, and i believe to have tried setting fire to it, but what about sitting it on top of a heatmat? i have heatmats inside my vivarium, could long-term heat from being on top of one of these damage the substrate? cause it to dry out or melt? i apologise if this has already been addressed, but if it has i missed it somewhere!


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Hi, 

It can be used on top of a heatmat, but like with all substrates ensure there isnt a thick layer on top of the mat as it will act like a thermal barrier causing a build up of heat (mats should always be thermostatically controlled). It will only melt if the heatmat malfunctions and the temperature required for it to melt is so high any inhabitants of the enclosure would be long dead before the rubber melts, Heat wil not cause it to dry out, the only thing that dries out the rubber is sunshine (UV) over a long period of time, but rubbstrate is coloured making it UV stable. 

I also have results of the toxicity tests available via PM to anyone who is interested, but basically it confirms that any harmfull elements are at trace level below the unit of measurement and extremely below what is classed as a Safe level.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

so nobody impressed with their free samples? would love to hear comments good or bad?


----------



## Khonsu

It sounds to good to be true if not a tad pricey but then i suppose you buy once & wash it, has anybody out there bought /tried it yet if so what do you reckon


----------



## Josh-sama

All substrates are a high risk of impaction, you cannot throw that issue at a seller/manuafacturer of a substrate. This is a rather new and controversial substrate I'm sure. But it runs along the same risks as woodchips. If the product has been tested and works, then you should give it the benefit of a doubt.

LiveFoodByPost is a respected site, and quite popular. I'm sure, the guys there are very professional an dhave strict health concerns about reptiles. Pink has become rather defensive and immature and somewhat delusional about the product being attacked and needs to realise customers see this product as new, and unpopular.

So lets all take a deep breathe and think about these points. Okay?


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Defensive - yes always - i am proud of my company and its products, Immature - not really i just get straight to the point and have no need to dress that point up, Delusional - that would be great, ive always wanted to be delusioned.!

Customers dont see this product as new and unpopular, customers are buying this product, loving it so much they are coming back and buying it in large quantities. It just seems to be RFUK'ers that perceive the product to be bad and unpopular. 

I would love to hear some reviews from the people that had free samples sent to them,


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## Josh-sama

I've PMed you the details, so I'll be ready for it when it comes !

How big is the sample by the way?


----------



## blood and guts

Just read this hole thread and i will be honest i do not like the product one bit for a few reasons.

1, product testing has been very very limited, diffrent heating types, temps and time scales may have helped change my opinion but its just not there.

2, your using claims based on child safty regs, id like to know how often its retested. Could it be a case of got the permits etc now lets get a cheaper supplier?

3, we should all be striving to keep our reptiles as safe and as natural as possible. While wood chips can cause impaction theres more chance of it also being brocken down by stomach acids when compared to this product.

4, we see so many diffrent products come and go, you will know that being in the trade. Im sure ive seen similar in the past.

5, i know you have tryed to cover it above but wood based substrates do absorb some waste matter and do help in providing humidity. This product does not do that, you will end up with vary vary damp areas and maybe the hole viv being soaked.

Sorry to be negative but i feel to many products these days just are not tested and marketed well, this sadly falls into that catagory for me.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Testing hasnt really been that limited, weve tested it in quite a few different scenarios, if you re-read the thread you will probably pick up on what we have done and how, This product has been tested to toy safety standards, unless the product was to change then theres no need to retest - as this is a one off unique product only made by one company in the world, changing manufacturer is not an option. I think should woodchip or this cause an impaction then the impaction would lead to death a long long time before stomach acid could break down the wood. This product has the advantage of giving the natural look with out the natural disadvantages. Products do come and go, but this has never been done before. As for the humidity issue - i am hoping some of the people that recieved samples have done their own experiments so they can confirm what i have said, as for testing and marketing - i know most of you must just think i am some nutter working from a bedroom, but livefoods by post is actually quite a professional affair!


----------



## blood and guts

Ok lets pick up on product testing again, what temps has this product been raised to by yourself? we all know how hot mats get perticuly under glass tanks. 

Are you 100% sure the company suppling are making it them selves? sadly these days many companys are out sourcing prodution to china and we all know the scare storys of the last few years witch included products that did pass safty befor changing source.

This product is not new as such and im still sure ive seen it in the reptile world befor, and to use the word think does not prove any cases. Good marketing is based on fact with products that pass the test of time.


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## LFBP-NEIL

We have tested it up to 400.c - it starts to smoke around 300 - 400.c, it will start to melt at over 200-300.c, temperature of an un-statted mat with an excessive layer of substrate on can get to between 60.c -80.c in our experience if seriously misused. The animal will be long dead due to misuse of heatmat and thermostat before the rubber causes a problem. 

100% sure this product is made in this country by only one company 

This product in its original form is not new, which gives me confidence in the product, but is 100% new in the reptile world and there has definately never been another loose flake artficial rubber wood substrate in this industry ever before. - if you can find another one i will take that back.

and also the word think doesnt come into it as its not sold as an edible substrate.


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## Josh-sama

Just recieved my sample! Thanks!

Just to question, how do this substrate go about holding humidity? Helping etc?


----------



## sanderson

How much for a sample?


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Josh-sama said:


> Just recieved my sample! Thanks!
> 
> Just to question, how do this substrate go about holding humidity? Helping etc?


it doesnt but if you layer it deep enough it sinks in water so you can use it as a reservoir underneath a bit like clay leca balls, if you spray it with water the water evaporates at the same rate as when sprayed onto cypress mulch.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

sanderson said:


> How much for a sample?


free just send me a pm


----------



## blood and guts

pink said:


> it doesnt but if you layer it deep enough it sinks in water so you can use it as a reservoir underneath a bit like clay leca balls, if you spray it with water the water evaporates at the same rate as when sprayed onto cypress mulch.


I not going to say anything else on this subject but thats a very bold claim on evapartion and would like to know how you have proven it?

Also the clay balls thing often has another substrate over the top of it, so not really the same thing. In fact sounds a bit of a bio hazzard and hard work using like that.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

blood and guts said:


> I not going to say anything else on this subject but thats a very bold claim on evapartion and would like to know how you have proven it?
> 
> Also the clay balls thing often has another substrate over the top of it, so not really the same thing. In fact sounds a bit of a bio hazzard and hard work using like that.


well if you had read the thread from the beginning....

We took two glass terrarriums, filled the bottom of one with rubbstrate, the other with Zoo med forest floor (cypress mulch), sprayed a litre of water over each one, watched the humidity levels in the tanks and looked to see which one had water in it the last, and they were pretty much identical because the wood substrates do not absorb water unless soaked in water.

you dont need to use a second layer on top of leca thats purely cosmetic, but rubbstrate would make an excellent top layer on leca, or like i say you could just use rubbstrate on its own as it sinks - perfect for treefrog set ups etc etc, 

Bio-hazard? i dont think that needs answering does it,


----------



## ghostcornsnake

when you wash it how long will it take do dry and do u ever need to replace rubstrait.


----------



## Baxtor

Very interesting, just ordered a 1kg bag of this to try it out.


----------



## markhill

pink said:


> so nobody impressed with their free samples? would love to hear comments good or bad?


It looks bloody fantastic, cant fault it there:2thumb:

However I've washed it and washed it and washed it, I've left it in the sun for about 3 weeks and we've had alot of sun recently but it still *STINKS:bash:

*I know its rubber but is there no way of getting rid of the smell?

If you can I'll buy loads and change over all my viv's. 
Its just the smell, if I put it 2 inches deep in all my viv's my whole house would smell like a tyre garage:whip:


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Trust me it does go eventually! you can speed it up apparantly by using an ozone generator?? ozone breaks down the rubber smell - not yet managed to find an ozone generator so cant test that theory! if so i would treat it all before its packed, But the smell will go, stick with the sample and after a while it will happen! 

When we had the first tonne delivered the place smelt of rubber for a few weeks, but now you cant notice it unless you stick your nose in the stuff,


----------



## markhill

pink said:


> Trust me it does go eventually! you can speed it up apparantly by using an ozone generator?? ozone breaks down the rubber smell - not yet managed to find an ozone generator so cant test that theory! if so i would treat it all before its packed, But the smell will go, stick with the sample and after a while it will happen!
> 
> When we had the first tonne delivered the place smelt of rubber for a few weeks, ,


Is that because it doesn't smell anymore or because you've gotten used to it? Like a person that has dogs in their house, the house smells of dog but they cant smell it cos they're used to it but if someone who doesn't have dogs come round the smell's obvious


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Probably a bit of both!


----------



## Dazzetski

markhill said:


> It looks bloody fantastic, cant fault it there:2thumb:
> 
> However I've washed it and washed it and washed it, I've left it in the sun for about 3 weeks and we've had alot of sun recently but it still *STINKS:bash:*
> 
> I know its rubber but is there no way of getting rid of the smell?
> 
> If you can I'll buy loads and change over all my viv's.
> Its just the smell, if I put it 2 inches deep in all my viv's my whole house would smell like a tyre garage:whip:


Are you still using it & if so what's the smell like, i'm seriously considering changing over to this (especially for my corn snakes as they're so messy). If people don't like the idea of it, DON'T BUY IT!


----------



## Josh-sama

I recieved my sample a while ago, and was using it fine. Smell though put me off, but if there was a way to quickly sort the smell out, I'd use it long term


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

****price update****

well we have been listening to what people want and we have also have talked about this product with wholesalers, It would appear that you guys want to be able to buy it in bulk at a better price and the wholesaler doesnt want to sell it as it could detract from the consumable substrate sales. so... now we dont have to worry about allowing for any other wholesaler / retailer mark ups we are going to sell it exclusively through www.livefoodsbypost.co.uk at a direct price to the public, 1kg bags will still be £6.99 as that reflects the time invloved in packaging it, but we will now be doing 10kg bulk boxes for £20 each plus delivery at £9.99 per order.


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## evilchild

sorry if you have already covered this.

is it ok to use with heat mats? or will the heat not penertaright through the rubber.

also when an animal deficates normal substraight it holds some of the smell, but as the rubber is water proof is the smell worse?

also dose it float or sink?


----------



## chewy86

am i right in thinking if being used on a small collection once you have washed it you could hand pick the pieces you wanted to use for there size and dry them off to make sure there is almost no fear of ingestion from snakes anyway? maybe a stupid question aswell but would the snake be in there thinking what the :censor: is that smell?


----------



## Leliel

if i want to layer a 4x2x2 viv at an inch deep how much of this stuff would i need to buy?

also will the smell go if you soak the substrate in white vinegar for a while then rinse really well? usually works o get rid of smells : victory: if you are happy to send me a sample i would try all my home tricks to get rid of rubbery smells!


----------



## evilchild

Leliel said:


> if i want to layer a 4x2x2 viv at an inch deep how much of this stuff would i need to buy?
> 
> also will the smell go if you soak the substrate in white vinegar for a while then rinse really well? usually works o get rid of smells : victory: if you are happy to send me a sample i would try all my home tricks to get rid of rubbery smells!


6kg, 1 kg will do i quare foot.

i would becareful with that i might start to corrode the rubber?


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

evilchild said:


> sorry if you have already covered this.
> 
> is it ok to use with heat mats? or will the heat not penertaright through the rubber.
> 
> also when an animal deficates normal substraight it holds some of the smell, but as the rubber is water proof is the smell worse?
> 
> also dose it float or sink?


Its ok to use with heatmats, it absorbs some heat but also acts as an insulator if its too deep, the same precautions need to be used as for any substrate i.e do not pile it too high on the mat, 

i havent noticed an increase in bad odours when the animals defecate,

It does sink in water


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

chewy86 said:


> am i right in thinking if being used on a small collection once you have washed it you could hand pick the pieces you wanted to use for there size and dry them off to make sure there is almost no fear of ingestion from snakes anyway? maybe a stupid question aswell but would the snake be in there thinking what the :censor: is that smell?


you could hand pick out the larger pieces, would be very time consuming though - unless you made some sort of sieve? I havent noticed any snakes being bothered by the smell - which isnt as bad as you think,


----------



## evilchild

pink said:


> Its ok to use with heatmats, it absorbs some heat but also acts as an insulator if its too deep, the same precautions need to be used as for any substrate i.e do not pile it too high on the mat,
> 
> i havent noticed an increase in bad odours when the animals defecate,
> 
> It does sink in water


 many thanks


----------



## chewy86

well it wouldnt really be that bad for me time wise as ill have at the mo one 18litre rub lol as selling everything else just to have an albino royal to free up space so i assume 1kg will be enough for me? do you allow collection to save on p+p?


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## LFBP-NEIL

yes, anybodys welcome to come collect some from our showroom...

Livefoods By post - showroom pictures

Visiting our Showroom


----------



## amyloveys

very happy with my sample ! going to get some for my hatchlings , i usually use newspaper or kitchen towel for all my snakes as its easier to clean but this may well help with the shy hatchlings ! 

now where do i order some from :whistling2:


----------



## amyloveys

pink said:


> you could hand pick out the larger pieces, would be very time consuming though - unless you made some sort of sieve? I havent noticed any snakes being bothered by the smell - which isnt as bad as you think,


i love the smell !!


----------



## Sarah-Jayne

I got a sample and I think it is quite good, I am not sure my baby snow corn agrees though cos its not as easy to burrow in to as aspen and she can't bury herself in it lol


----------



## Hoolibugs

I did PM for a sample but heard nothing back  About to pimp a couple of vivs that have inbuilt hides so this looks ideal but I need to know colours etc (and basically see it) before I can buy the amount I need.


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Hoolibugs said:


> I did PM for a sample but heard nothing back  About to pimp a couple of vivs that have inbuilt hides so this looks ideal but I need to know colours etc (and basically see it) before I can buy the amount I need.


resend the pm, i dont check them very often - too busy sorry, 

colour range can be seen here... RubbStrate - Re-useable Reptile Substrate


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## beguana

Use this stuff for my Gecko (and rest once older), and all our snakes! Amasing stuff :no1:
Though i found a great way to wash and drain! 
Get a big tub/bucket put holes in the bottom and shower/hose :2thumb:
and depending on the container if you leave on the floor you can soak it! : victory:
Fantastic stuff!
Smells fantastic if you ask me (loves rubber yeah= strange) :whistling2:


----------



## Feebix

I`ve just bought a load to try, I keep about thirty five odd snakes at the moment, I think I`ll try it for a while and see if there`s anything I don`t like about it for six months or so before switching over totally, fingers crossed it`s suitable, I`d love to just wash the substrate and put it back in.... 
How long have you been using it Beguana? I take it you can`t fault it? : victory:


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## Feebix

Well, it turned up today, and I must say,it looks lovely ! The smell really isn`t even half the smell I thought it might be. In a day or two, I`ll be putting my Kingsnakes on it, and maybe a few Cornsnakes too. I`ve bought ten kilos. I`ll be trying this out, and I`ll write about it in this thread. I do hope I don`t have the oportunity to test the impaction issue but if I do, it`ll all be written about here. I think slightly different feeding habits might be in order though, even though, in my opinion, this stuff is no worse that wood substrate where swallowing is concerned, maybe even a better bet. The peices range from teeny tiny little slithers, to larger two inch pieces and it looks very nice indeed. I`m itching to try it out and report back, it can only help iron out a few issues in this thread, and thus far, I don`t see anyone else trying it out and reporting back here so wish me luck..... :whistling2:


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## Feebix

I`ll take a photo of this stuff later, I had a quick search through it and found something I can`t say I like much. It has braided red fibres in it, woven into some of the bits, can you tell me exactly what this is recycled from? This isn`t made from clean rubber I can see that. I`m going to have to search through it bit by bit now, I know for sure that fibres are going to mean big complications on ingestion, making it worse than wood with this stuff in it.  I suppose i`ll only have to go through millions of bits of rubber once though eh... Photos to follow....


----------



## LFBP-NEIL

Its made from solid chunks of rubber that have been recycled from solid rubber applications such as forklift truck tyres and rubber waste from other industries, when we package it we try to remove any of the rubber that has small amounts of braid in, and to give an exact scale to the situation the last tonne of rubbstrate that we processed (by hand) we removed about one garden bucket full of rubber that had a tiny fraction of braiding embedded into it. It is not made from car tyres that have braiding and metal running throughout it. 

*But Please remember it is not an ingestible substrate and is not sold as an ingestible substrate*,


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## Feebix

So the conversations about wood versus rubber, should have included tiny fibres, I`ve just bought ten kilos of this stuff, and I feel I`ve been far too trusting, I`ll now have to sell it on to lizard owners who could probably use it, there`s not a chance I`m putting this fibrous stuff in with my snakes! It would wrap around their teeth and do all sorts of damage to their stomachs. I`ve set out to do a fair test, I didn`t like the way people were just poo pooing it before trying it. I`m very sorry to say, something that looked ideal, is far from ideal and totally unsuitable for snakes in my opinion. Sorry dude, I tried, I`m just not happy with this at all, look at the fibres ! Even a tiny amount could cause problems and you`ll never hand pick it all out ! 








This stuff would be ok for any animal that isn`t likely to eat it I suppose... As soon as I saw the fibres, my heart sank......... I`m going to have to try and sell all this stuff now


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## Feebix

You knew there was fibre in it then? and you knew that was a bad thing because you`ve been trying to pick it out by hand ! This wasn`t mentioned at all ! If you`d have said at somepoint, this contans fibres which we know are bad and we try and pick it out, I wouldn`t have touched this stuff with somebody elses bargepole. Now I feel thouroughly ripped off dude. Whether you sell it as an ingestable substrate or not, this is no good at all, if there`s a much greater risk of complications compared to wood, as there IS with fibres ! Why would ANYONE want to use it?! I`m obviously not just out to argue, I`ve bought a load and was ready to put it in there this morning, then I see it`s so contaminated I would rather bed my snakes on depleted uranium ! Which isn`t sold as an ingestable substrate either.... I don`t want an argument dude, I`ve bought some, it`s terrible, now I`m not happy you haven`t mention fibres before now and I feel ripped off to the tune of thirty quid. Cheers.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Post a photo of the same piece of rubber next to a 1p piece so we can get an idea of the scale, as that piece must be tiny, 

If you are not happy with it, please send it back for a refund, we dont refund delivery costs though. But remember it isnt / wasnt / sold as an edible substrate it sold as a re-useable rubber substrate, the advice given is to feed your animal outside of the vivarium, I certainly havent set out to break anyones trust, if your not happy just send it back.


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## LFBP-NEIL

Feebix said:


> You knew there was fibre in it then? and you knew that was a bad thing because you`ve been trying to pick it out by hand ! This wasn`t mentioned at all ! If you`d have said at somepoint, this contans fibres which we know are bad and we try and pick it out, I wouldn`t have touched this stuff with somebody elses bargepole. Now I feel thouroughly ripped off dude. Whether you sell it as an ingestable substrate or not, this is no good at all, if there`s a much greater risk of complications compared to wood, as there IS with fibres ! Why would ANYONE want to use it?! I`m obviously not just out to argue, I`ve bought a load and was ready to put it in there this morning, then I see it`s so contaminated I would rather bed my snakes on depleted uranium ! Which isn`t sold as an ingestable substrate either.... I don`t want an argument dude, I`ve bought some, it`s terrible, now I`m not happy you haven`t mention fibres before now and I feel ripped off to the tune of thirty quid. Cheers.


Yes we know that some pieces (and we are talking about 1 in 1000 approx) have very small fibres in them, cant comment as to wether its a bad thing or not as the fibres are embedded in the rubber and only roughly about 1 in 1000 or less pieces are affected, any pieces that have obvious fibre in them are removed as it doesnt look nice.

We havent been "trying to pick it out by hand" as though we are trying to hide some dirty secret, we package the product by hand, when we spot any contaminate we pick it out, a very very very very very very very tiny amount of rubber has a few tiny tiny tiny strands of fibre in them so we remove them,

if you feel you have been ripped off - send it back, you have seven days to return a product you no longer want, upon return we will refund the purchase price of the goods less postage costs. 

You would seriously house your snakes on depleted uranium rather than a re-useable rubber bedding? isnt that going a bit over the top.


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## Feebix

You don`t pick it out, but you pick it out? what?! I will be sending it back and I`m going to need the cost of sending it back from you aswell, if you refuse to do that, I will call weights and measures straight away and have you investigated because this stuff is not fit for purpose, it is an active danger to any snake that is bedded on it. The piece in the photo is over an inch long, I`ll do another photo for you now....


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## Feebix

Here it is again...








and whether it`s tiny or not, it`s an active danger to any snake bedded on it as it is contaminated with fibres ! You really would be sensible to refund me my money plus £10 for postage, do you think weights and measures will refuse to investigate you? Or do you think they`ll shut you down and do a thorough investigation? Please refund me my money for ten kilos of this stuff, plus £10 for postage and i`ll send it back to you and be on my way.


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## Feebix

Well... the one good thing I have to say is the man I spoke to at your company was very polite and helpful indeed, he is refunding me in full, and having a courier pick the stuff up, you can`t say fairer than that. All along I have wished only to be totally honest about what I think, and going by the fact that I have initially bough 10 kilos, I think that shows I really wasn`t expecting this outcome at all. Shame, it sounded so perfect too.


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## Jinja

oops...


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## Feebix

I`ve just been refunded now. I really must sing the praises of this company for being fair to me, no argument, just a refund. Fair dooze ...


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## beguana

Hmmm. Gotta say we use this stuff. We pick ALL the small bits out, no way my lizards/snakes whatever could OR would eat the rubber. i must add surly if you washed the rubber you would have seen the little TINY bit? :whistling2:
Iv not found one!
Its a tiny bit of fluff in my opinion! :lol2:
We find worse things in other substrates.... oh like parasites.... metal.... plastic! 
And your throwing toys out of prams over fluff?
Im sorry but before i get 'oh you dontlove your reptiles then' i pick everylittle tiny bit out that COULD be eaten by my leos or snakes! its rubber... common?
I dont put it with my hatchlings but my adults love it!
All my snakes do too!
If you WASH this stuff, and put it in with care... to be hounist i dont see you not finding it. and the only way it would get wraped around its teeth is because you didnt pick it out (KNOWING you find worse in other substrates AND you are testing it?) and also.... i reaaaaly dont see a reptile eating fluff..... 

but I know your only being safe, but thats fluff.... comes off carpets... jumpers ect.... 
hey each to their own.... i think you guys blew this WAY out! :lol2:


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## Feebix

Fibres are not good,fibres can wrap around teeth and damages stomachs and cause all sorts of serious problems.Throwing toys out of prams? I`m protecting my animals and my consumer rights you fool. The fibres were woven into the rubber, there was enough of it in there to warrant my sending it back, simple.There`s no washing off fibres that are woven into the rubber. As I can see you are the sort of idiot that just cruises through posts looking for an argument or stupid comment to make, I`ll ignore you and your childlike comments.


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## DazedLewis

To be fair:

"it is not made of recyled pneumatic tyres - there is no metal and *no fibre* contamination"

your website says no fibre... so the person has a right to be annoyed.

Though I am still considering this product, it looks nice  If some were to be injested, is it more or less likely to cause complications than woodchip?


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## scott stewart

colour range can be seen here... RubbStrate - Re-useable Reptile Substrate[/QUOTE]

Link takes me to webpage but no colors etc would also be interested in a sample i fear getting mites so this may be perfect


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## LFBP-NEIL

Hi, We discontinued Rubbstrate due to poor long term uptake of the product, we still use it ourselves with a lot of our animals but no longer sell it as there was little interest in it after an initial flurry of sales.


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## scott stewart

thats a shame as i require alot have a burm on its way and 3 other snakes plus lizards would have solved my mite problem would you not be intrested in selling me some?


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## LFBP-NEIL

Im pretty sure its all gone now, but will have a look in the warehouse and update the thread if there is any left.


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## scott stewart

thankyou very much very very intrested


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## LFBP-NEIL

please stop pm'ing me folks for free samples - this thread is two years old and the product is no longer available : victory:


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## scott stewart

Did you manage to check warehouse ?


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## LFBP-NEIL

Ok checked what was left in stock and have put live on the website to purchase, when these are gone its gone completely. 

I see people are picking up on the mite less feature of the substrate, just to clarify your snakes can still get snake mites using this substrate but what you wont get is substrate mites providing you keep the substrate clean by washing it periodically and if you do get a snake mite outbreak you dont have to ditch all of your substrate you just wash it.


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