# APA on facebook



## CCBBoas (Nov 3, 2012)

Animal Protection Agency | Facebook

They have commented on their facebook with : 

If you haven’t seen the 'Inside Out' programme yet then you can find it here.

The BBC investigation looked at pet markets, the treatment of the animals, and interviewed APA’s Director, Elaine Toland, who emphasized the need for a ban on trading in exotic pets.

Whereas APA’s position was enhanced by independent scientist, Clifford Warwick, a world-renowned authority on reptile biology and welfare, the traders had to rely on one of their own supporters - someone called Tim Wass, who recently stated that: “I know nothing whatsoever about snakes”! WE THINK IT SHOWED!

Another traders’ spokesman let slip that reptiles are “expensive to keep” – which is a good admission but contrary to the usual mantra and falsehood that reptiles are inexpensive and ‘easy’ pets.

Programme presenter, Richard Daniels, said "I look at these tiny little boxes and think this is cruel". The traders’ ‘expert’ (yes, the one who admits he ‘knows nothing whatsoever about snakes’) tried to argue that a tiny plastic pot is adequate because it constitutes a ‘microcosm’! We suspect Mr Wass doesn’t know too much about microcosms either – the snake containers he referred to are definitively not microcosms for reptiles.

Our impression from seeing Inside Out is that the film further demonstrated how commonplace ignorance is among reptile traders and keepers (and their ‘experts’). This seems to be matched with financial motives (plenty of money changed hands), and that’s a bad mix.

The film emphasized Clifford Warwick’s points about captivity being stressful and showed footage of snakes trying to escape boxes and lizards being piled into them. Mr Warwick made clear that no reasonable person would keep a dog in a glass box, and nor should they treat a reptile that way.

I have posted my thoughts as I'm sure many of you will too.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

I'd love to post my thoughts, but I got banned many months ago, lol.

Their arguements are flawed, and I cant believe they are trying to turn this in to a positive. I'll try and find my rebuttal tho the above comments, cant be bothered retyping it, lol.


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## iSTAT (Aug 28, 2012)

All i have to say is...LOL


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## Reptiliaa (Jul 24, 2012)

I think that the APA's part was pathetic, but nonetheless won't stoop to their level. However, I do think that compared to the bad media the hobby has received in the past, this was not as bad as it could have been. And, I'm sure like everyone else, I am most definitely shaking in my boots due to all of the APA's 'political & public' support.


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## truncheon1973 (Oct 12, 2008)

CCBBoas said:


> Animal Protection Agency | Facebook
> 
> They have commented on their facebook with :
> 
> ...


we would post our views miss toland but you will only delete them wont you


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## Keiron (Oct 31, 2007)

They are quite simply a bunch of childish muppets hell bent on getting their own way, the type of people that would still argue even if 100% flawless evidence was put to them they'd still be right and everyone else wrong, that's what really annoys me!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Tarron said:


> I'd love to post my thoughts, but I got banned many months ago, lol.
> 
> Their arguements are flawed, and I cant believe they are trying to turn this in to a positive. I'll try and find my rebuttal tho the above comments, cant be bothered retyping it, lol.



Oh I might go on and comment yet.


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## NicolaMe (Nov 2, 2006)

i just posted a comment...: victory:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

NicolaMe said:


> i just posted a comment...: victory:


When I watched the show I was kind of hoping clifford warwicks chair would collapse. :whistling2:


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## truncheon1973 (Oct 12, 2008)

so did my misses lol

wonder how long they stay up lol


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## xoneringx (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm encouraged that they only have under 600 page likes and this Rebecca White seems to be the only person who likes any of their status updates.


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## NicolaMe (Nov 2, 2006)

truncheon1973 said:


> so did my misses lol
> 
> wonder how long they stay up lol


 
not long i suspect. Its ok having a facebook page but if you dont take the rough with the smooth then its not exactly free speech is it :lol2:


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## Ophioussa (Sep 15, 2009)

For those of you, and there seems to be quite a few, who don't know, the APA’s 'independent' scientist, Clifford Warwick, is NOT a world-renowned authority on reptile biology and welfare, or on anything else come to think of it.

He is rumored to be an ex-importer and seller of reptiles, operating his business from his bedroom a good few years ago. Indeed many of HIS reptiles probably did die, which may be his motivation now, who knows what goes on in an extremists head.

For the record, Clifford Warwick is:

- NOT independent. He is an extremist campaigner of many years standing.
- NOT a scientist. Scientists deal in facts. They don't manipulate facts to 
suit their argument and ignore other facts that are inconvenient.
- NOT a world renowned authority on reptile biology and welfare.

Mr Warwick seems to have stripped away all the meaningless letters after his name that he had added over the years in order to create the facade that he is a well qualified, deep-thinking academic, who is respected within the scientific community for his research and knowledge of reptile biology and welfare - He is none of these things. 

Interestingly, when a leading light in a previous incarnation of his animal rights extremist group, he was referred to as 'Dr' Warwick by his fellow extremists on a number of occasions. This title was rapidly dropped when the source of his doctorate was challenged!


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## truncheon1973 (Oct 12, 2008)

i think mr warick should go back to his old job


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

xoneringx said:


> I'm encouraged that they only have under 600 page likes and this Rebecca White seems to be the only person who likes any of their status updates.


It is probibly Elaine's second account. :whistling2:


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## Ophioussa (Sep 15, 2009)

truncheon1973 said:


> i think mr warick should go back to his old job


From what I hear, he was no good at it back then, we don't want people like him in the trade...would give us a bad reputation, lol


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## Revobuzz (Nov 8, 2011)

I have left some thoughts for them too.


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> When I watched the show I was kind of hoping clifford warwicks chair would collapse. :whistling2:


There is only one factual comment on Warwick and that is that we all know who ate all the pies......


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

It's a pity the BBC didn't think to question Warwick's credentials before introducing him as they did, anyone watching might assume they had done and that he was some sort of qualified expert rather than the charlatan that he is. World renowned my arse!

I suspect the only people who will read their Facebook statement and believe their view of how the programme went are their own supporters, I doubt many members of the public who are not already interested in the subject would bother reading it in the first place.


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## Slackey (Dec 8, 2009)

Could not help myself, I had to reply. I highly suspect that my reply may be removed as others have been. I did try to remain non-confrontational.

Should it be removed I have posted it here. I could have said much more, but as I know it will be ignored or deleted I gathered why bother.


I watched this programme with interest. I am a keen herpetologist and very interested in all other aspects of the natural word. Importantly, I am an advocate for good husbandry and welfare where any animal is concerned. 

The BBC gave an impartial view as the BBC should, however I will point out that the reporter did ask what scientific evidence is there to support Mr Warwicks claims. his reply there are over 20 papers, but unfortunately he was unable to provide any of this so called scientific evidence. Surely knowing that he is going to be interviewed on such a subject he would have had such evidence to hand?? After all I am led to believe he wrote these 20 papers!

APA, please provide links to this documentation, I would like to read such information for my own benefit. I assume that they are all credited in peer journals?

What does concern me is that you state that Mr Warwick is a world renowned scientist. Until this programme I have to admit my ignorance that I have never heard of him before, of course that does not mean he is world renown, it just means I have not heard of him. I was concerned though that such a world renown scientist had no post nominals? and for that matter none that I can find??? Even more worrying is that the best analogy that Mr Warwick could suggest for keeping reptiles was that you would not keep a dog in a vivarium. Well no he is 100% right, I would never consider such a thing, keeping a dog in a vivarium is a ludicrous idea and what ever gave him that idea is disturbing to say the least. he may as well suggested that we do not put babies in cots as they look through the bars and scream (and believe me they can do, I have two very well adjusted children to prove it)

It also concerns me, as it has others, that you suggest Mr Wass was not independent, but may I ask you what connection Mr Warwick has with the APA? I am led to believe that he is not totally independent of the APA, please correct me publicly if I am wrong.


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## bbav (Oct 17, 2007)

If you are on twitter they can't remove comments : victory:
https://twitter.com/APAWild


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Tim Wass MBE
Chief Officer RSPCA rtd
Independent Animal Welfare Consultant

Tim Wass served with the RSPCA for 25 years. He was an Inspector in South London where he specialised in dangerous dogs and dog fighting investigations. He was promoted to the rank of Superintendent for the Midlands and East Anglia responsible for the operational delivery of animal welfare including licensed establishments and liaison with various trade organisations, and government at local and national level.

He led the RSPCA response to national emergencies, crisis and disease. He was the lead liaison for DEFRA and Animal Health during two Foot and Mouth and two Avian Influenza outbreaks based at the National Disease Control Centre. In 2007 Tim was awarded an MBE for his services to animal welfare.

During his service Tim was the national spokesperson for the RSPCA appearing across all media sectors. For 8 years Tim was the RSPCA Emergency Response Commander. He is an excellent, knowledgeable and credible communicator. In 2008 Tim was promoted to the most senior rank of Chief Officer where he was responsible for the performance of the RSPCA Inspectorate in the UK. He played a key role in government lobbying, development of new law, fundraising and marketing the charity to the public.

Last year Tim was the "front man" for the award winning Biggest Animal Rescue campaign and TV advert. In 2011 Tim retired from the RSPCA and remains wholly committed to animal welfare and promoting responsible pet ownership and care.


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## NicolaMe (Nov 2, 2006)

My comments have been deleted off their facebook and i can no longer make comments....think i have been banned :whistling2:

ps Chris Newman

I think you did a great job last night with your highly intelligent and well informed comments. Thankyou for fighting our corner in such a dignified fashion.:no1:


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Chris Newman said:


> Tim Wass MBE
> Chief Officer RSPCA rtd
> Independent Animal Welfare Consultant
> 
> ...


I think we all know that had Tim mentioned even the smallest most insignificant negative, the APA would have been ALL over it, saying how great he is, and how he thinks we're all disgusting. Hypocritical morons, lol



NicolaMe said:


> My comments have been deleted off their facebook and i can no longer make comments....think i have been banned :whistling2:
> 
> ps Chris Newman
> 
> I think you did a great job last night with your highly intelligent and well informed comments. Thankyou for fighting our corner in such a dignified fashion.:no1:


 You most certainly will have been banned. Its censorship!


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## NicolaMe (Nov 2, 2006)

Tarron said:


> I think we all know that had Tim mentioned even the smallest most insignificant negative, the APA would have been ALL over it, saying how great he is, and how he thinks we're all disgusting. Hypocritical morons, lol
> 
> 
> You most certainly will have been banned. Its censorship!


All i said was that they didnt come across very well and requested a link to the 20 odd papers they quoted.


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## Revobuzz (Nov 8, 2011)

They have listed some scientific documents now on the facebook page. Not sure how you get hold of them though?


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

Revobuzz said:


> They have listed some scientific documents now on the facebook page. Not sure how you get hold of them though?


Most of them are just websites or PDF's - some aren't even relevant.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Could someone confirm whether or not Tim wass was paid to attend? I highly doubt he was but it would wipe the smile off that smug 'Jake's' face. 

The apa do pay Clifford but he is totally unbiased and independent. Rubbish, he's lining his pocket like the red of the money grabbers.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Oh dear I’ve been banned – gutted: slight exaggeration, being gutted that is! I posted, or rather my son posted this question on the APA Facebook page [see below] within moments it was deleted and further posts banned? You really could be forgiven for thinking somebody might have something to hide? Notwithstanding this I am quite sure this was entirely innocent and mistake, so in the morning I shall email Clifford Warwick and Elaine Tolland and politely ask them if they would be as so kind to address the issues raised, i.e. what are Clifford Warwick formal academic qualifications, let’s see if that elicits a response as Facebook appears to have been an abject failure? 


Elaine 

You state that Clifford Warwick is qualified in medical science to post degree level at Leeds University Medical School and is also qualified in reptile biology at a post degree level. Whilst I have know doubts you are absolutely right the slightly worrying issue is there appears to be no record of a dissertation or thesis lodged in the Leeds University Library by a Clifford Warwick? Neither does there appear to be record of him attended Leeds University in the first place? I am quite sure this is a falling in the system so if you could provide more details so these records could be tracked down would be hugely beneficial as I am sure you would agree? So precisely what courses did Clifford attend at Leeds Medical School, and when and what other formal academic qualifications does he hold where were they grated and when?


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## Slackey (Dec 8, 2009)

All my previous posts have been removed too. I might just copy and paste your question Chris:lol2:


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

TBH, apart from harassing them and wasting their time, I don't really see the point in posting all these questions on their Facebook and Twitter accounts. They will only be read by two groups of people, APA members and supporters who already know what they think and will not be swayed, and reptile keepers like us who know what we think of the APA, very few ordinary members of the public will ever see or bother to read any of it.

Baiting them may be fun but it won't achieve anything, and the time spent doing it could be used to greater effect, for instance writing to local authorities and MPs explaining the true nature of groups like the APA and their lack of any real credentials, so that when the next reptile meeting is planned in your area, it doesn't get cancelled by councils too quick to believe the APA and too eager to cover their own backs.


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## xoneringx (Sep 3, 2010)

Slackey said:


> All my previous posts have been removed too. I might just copy and paste your question Chris:lol2:


We should all do that! 

Edit - Alas, my posting rights have also been revoked. They're certainly having a few technical issues today.


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

I posted 3 times politely commenting on the disappearing posts only to have mine taken off!
18 posts left up out of 45.
Me thinks Toland and co are very unhappy and their untruths are rapidly being exposed.
Just posted this:
https://www.facebook.com/APAWild#
"18 posts left out of 45. Clearly censorship- I wonder what APA have to hide, apart from the lack of truth in their preaching!"
Any money on 5 minutes?


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## badwool (Aug 15, 2012)

Only 564 page likes....fairly popular page then.......

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## Revobuzz (Nov 8, 2011)

Graham said:


> TBH, apart from harassing them and wasting their time, I don't really see the point in posting all these questions on their Facebook and Twitter accounts. They will only be read by two groups of people, APA members and supporters who already know what they think and will not be swayed, and reptile keepers like us who know what we think of the APA, very few ordinary members of the public will ever see or bother to read any of it.
> 
> Baiting them may be fun but it won't achieve anything, and the time spent doing it could be used to greater effect, for instance writing to local authorities and MPs explaining the true nature of groups like the APA and their lack of any real credentials, so that when the next reptile meeting is planned in your area, it doesn't get cancelled by councils too quick to believe the APA and too eager to cover their own backs.


You may be right,"Clifford your an idiot" type posts are a waste of time and actually counter productive. 

If we are right we don't need to resort to name calling, just keep raising valid points. 

There are a number of posts on there that do not just slag them off but raise questions. These have not been deleted. These sort of posts will put doubt in the minds of other supporters so they are of value. Whether these posts are from genuine APA supporters with doubts I'm not sure....


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## gregmonsta (Dec 3, 2007)

I left several comments. All, until the last, were well structured criticisms of their misquoting what was said in the show and how they were biasing their 'report' on the programme accordingly.

None of these survived the cull :whip:


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## Revobuzz (Nov 8, 2011)

Revobuzz said:


> There are a number of posts on there that do not just slag them off but raise questions. These have not been deleted. QUOTE]
> 
> But they have now!


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

Mine and all others of any interest/ conflict with APA preachings have all been taken down.
At least we are keeping Elaine on her toes having to check her Facebook site all the time!


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## peterf (Jul 27, 2007)

14 post out of 51 remain and 4 of those are APA answers to non existent questions!


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## Pirate7 (Apr 7, 2008)

I asked them a perfectly valid question, I wonder if they will answer it?!


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## Slackey (Dec 8, 2009)

I never posted the question I was going to, I did post several others, all constructive and even thanked Elaine for posting the references to the papers that Warwick had mentioned (even though as it appears none really have any relevance to the argument). I was courteous and polite...... But know my posting rights have been removed:bash:


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

Slackey said:


> I never posted the question I was going to, I did post several others, all constructive and even thanked Elaine for posting the references to the papers that Warwick had mentioned (even though as it appears none really have any relevance to the argument). I was courteous and polite...... But know my posting rights have been removed:bash:


yup, i noticed a few were about climate and meteorolgy type stuff:lol2:
the kinda stuff thats obvious proof that reptiles are stressed in captivity!


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## GuardianReptileCourier (May 7, 2011)

why get yourselves het up about it, this has always gone on, and always will.
nothing will change, reptile arenot going to get banned, and as said earlier, the only people seeing this is them and us, and for the tv program, the public that did see it forgot about it within 30seconds of the program finishing.

just dont waste your time even thinking about it.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

diamond royal said:


> why get yourselves het up about it, this has always gone on, and always will.
> *nothing will change*, reptile arenot going to get banned, and as said earlier, the only people seeing this is them and us, and for the tv program, the public that did see it forgot about it within 30seconds of the program finishing.
> 
> just dont waste your time even thinking about it.


So what are your thoughts on the proposed black and white lists then? Will they happen? Will they not? What are the pros and cons etc....


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Would it not be worth compiling a dossier of all this bs relating to the.APA, Mr Warwick, the EDF and forwarding it to the editorial team at Inside Out. It might give them an even bigger story.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Mal said:


> Would it not be worth compiling a dossier of all this bs relating to the.APA, Mr Warwick, the EDF and forwarding it to the editorial team at Inside Out. It might give them an even bigger story.


Already sorted :2thumb:

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Natrix said:


> Already sorted :2thumb:
> 
> Gordon Glasson
> FBH VC


Nice one Gordan. Given the scrutiny editorial staff are facing at the moment for broadcasting inaccurate information they may feel compelled to ensure the record is put straight.


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