# Are Hognose Bites Really JUST a Bee Sting?



## Liam Sinclair (Sep 10, 2019)

Francis Cosquieri gives us a deep dive into hognose bites, their venom, the severity and the reality of the situation and likelihood of a bite. This is a hyper detailed discussion of western hognose snake venom that all owners should take head to. Enjoy.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

This has been discussed and documented many times.
There are plenty of keepe, myself included, who can document envenomated bites.
It would have probably been better speaking to an expert in the field of venom rather than a well known hobbyist though.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

ian14 said:


> It would have probably been better speaking to an expert in the field of venom rather than a well known hobbyist though.


Ouch !! 😯 

However I agree, getting the viewpoint of a professional (Dr Sean Bush would have been great) would have been nice, and may have been able to provide some details of any cases they experienced and documented.


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for watching. This video came about as a result of an offhand digression I made while filming the _Psammophis_ video. Liam asked me to elaborate on a comment and so I did, and as per usual it went on long enough to make its own video. I expect there will be a few more such videos released in due course. 

I certainly am not 'an expert in the field of venom' although I do try and keep myself up to date with medical cases (and other literature) for all species I keep and can cite references for all information given (much of which I have provided on here in the past as well). Sadly the average pet keeper does not always have access to this information though.

Interestingly some of the images used within were from my own collection that I have gathered over the years online and from personal friends and acquaintances - several are hitherto unpublished in academic literature (including the image of Tom Hastings' fasciotomy, which several venomous snake experts I have spoken to were actually unaware of even quite recently). _Sometimes _a hobbyist with 'ears on the ground' has access to information that has not been published which can surprise even the experts. I am aware of other hobbyists that have contributed to knowledge regarding rear-fanged snakes, for example Adam Radovanovic and a friend documented a rather interesting first envenomation from _Leptodeira frenata _about six months ago.

Certainly venomous bites from Hognose snakes have been documented many times, yet here we are in 2022 with people still denying what they are capable of or providing various misinformation. This being the case - and with some of the information contained in this video simply _not _being present on the Youtube platform up to now, and hard to find on other common social media platforms (and then only when I myself have posted it) - I don't feel there is any issue summarising what _is _known to fill that gap.

Regards,
Francis


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

Thrasops said:


> Thanks for watching. This video came about as a result of an offhand digression I made while filming the _Psammophis_ video. Liam asked me to elaborate on a comment and so I did, and as per usual it went on long enough to make its own video. I expect there will be a few more such videos released in due course.
> 
> I certainly am not 'an expert in the field of venom' although I do try and keep myself up to date with medical cases (and other literature) for all species I keep and can cite references for all information given (much of which I have provided on here in the past as well). Sadly the average pet keeper does not always have access to this information though.
> 
> ...



It's an interesting video. 

For me it doesn't matter who delivers the information so long as the information is good and I don't think there's any reason to assume otherwise in this case. 

I genuinely don't mean any offence by this but should Hollywood ever decide to make a film about the life of Thrasops, the lead must be played by Steven Seagal, with voice over from Michael Gove!


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

StuG said:


> I genuinely don't mean any offence by this but should Hollywood ever decide to make a film about the life of Thrasops, the lead must be played by Steven Seagal, with voice over from Michael Gove!


I dunno normally I get accused of looking like Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen or Christopher Hitchens... although Mike Roberts (Snakewispera Snr) is kind and says I look like Keanu...


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## Purgatory (Aug 18, 2017)

This is worth reading too :-

*First reported case of thrombocytopenia from a Heterodon nasicus envenomation*



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004101011831016X



And this thread :-









Western Hognose Bite - What to Look For?


I was bitten by my Western Hognose about ten minutes ago, he missed when going after his food and just barely got my hand. I’m keeping an eye on the symptoms, so far I’m experiencing a little bit of tingling which started off as localised and has now spread to the rest of my hand, numbness and...




www.reptileforums.co.uk


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

Hognose Snake Bite


The photos are lost, if this was the thread recently referred to; RE: Hognose bite That sounds like the account described by Adam, April Taylor's husband after their hog nailed him.




www.reptileforums.co.uk













Bitey hognose


Does anyone know what type of venom the hognose has? A very very mild offensive haemotoxin at a guess. Although most swellings are probably down to a mild infection, similar to a cat bite




www.reptileforums.co.uk













I quite fancy a western hognose....


Morning all Went to my local reptile shop to get food and looked round what snakes they had, as you do, and they had 2 gorgeous western hognoses, one of each sex. They were both out and about and one came up to the glass to see us. I'm in love!!! Done a bit of research and found they're...




www.reptileforums.co.uk





The subject has come up many times on the forum, I think it is obvious most people on here are well aware of the capacity of _Heterodon_ to cause envenomating bites as it has been discussed for a few years and more than one member has suffered their effects (I remember April Taylor posting a long thread on CB detailing what happened to her husband when he was bitten).

Sadly many of the photos from those threads have disappeared over time, as they tend to on RFUK servers.

I know I have posted these multiple times in the past but for the sake of completeness and as I have updated it in the last year, here is a list of citations documenting venomous bites from _Heterodon_. Remember, Sci-Hub is your friend:


Bragg, Arthur N. "Is Heterodon venomous?." Herpetologica 16.2 (1960): 121-123.

McAlister, Wayne H. "Evidence of mild toxicity in the saliva of the hognose snake (Heterodon)." _Herpetologica_ 19.2 (1963): 132-137.

Kroll, James Clarence. Comparative physiological ecology of Eastern and Western Hognose Snakes (_Heterodon platyrhinos_ and _Heterodon nasicus_). Diss. Texas A&M University, 1973.

Grogan, William L. "Effects of accidental envenomation from the saliva of the eastern hognose snake, Heterodon platyrhinos." Herpetologica 30.3 (1974): 248-249.

Kroll, James C. "Feeding adaptations of hognose snakes." _The Southwestern Naturalist_ (1976): 537-557.

Young, Robert Alan. "Physiological and Biochemical characterization of venoms from rear-fanged (opisthogluphous) snakes." (1984): 0070-0070.

Morris, Michael A. "Envenomation from the bite of Heterodon nasicus (Serpentes: Colubridae)." Herpetologica 41.3 (1985): 361-363.

Minton, Sherman A., and Scott A. Weinstein. "Colubrid snake venoms: immunologic relationships, electrophoretic patterns." _Copeia_ (1987): 993-1000.

Young, Robert A. "Effects of Duvernoy's gland secretions from the eastern hognose snake, Heterodon platirhinos, on smooth muscle and neuromuscular junction." _Toxicon_ 30.7 (1992): 775-779.

Phillips, S., Rose, B., Kulig, K., Brent, J., 1997. Envenomation from the bite of the Western hognose snake. J. Toxicol. Clin. Toxicol. 35, 532.

Hill, Robert E., and Stephen P. Mackessy. "Characterization of venom (Duvernoy’s secretion) from twelve species of colubrid snakes and partial sequence of four venom proteins." _Toxicon_ 38.12 (2000): 1663-1687.

Mackessy, Stephen P. "Biochemistry and pharmacology of colubrid snake venoms." _Journal of Toxicology: Toxin Reviews_ 21.1-2 (2002): 43-83.

Fry, Bryan G., et al. "Analysis of Colubroidea snake venoms by liquid chromatography with mass spectrometry: evolutionary and toxinological implications." _Rapid Communications in Mass Spectrometry_ 17.18 (2003): 2047-2062.

Fry, Bryan G., et al. "Isolation of a neurotoxin (α-colubritoxin) from a nonvenomous colubrid: evidence for early origin of venom in snakes." _Journal of molecular evolution_ 57.4 (2003): 446-452.

Averill-Murray, Roy C. "Natural history of the western hog-nosed snake (Heterodon nasicus) with notes on envenomation." Sonoran Herpetologist 19.9 (2006): 98-101.

Fry, Bryan G., et al. "Evolution of an arsenal: structural and functional diversification of the venom system in the advanced snakes (Caenophidia)." _Molecular & Cellular Proteomics_ 7.2 (2008): 215-246.

Weinstein, Scott A., and Daniel E. Keyler. "Local envenoming by the Western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus): a case report and review of medically significant Heterodon bites." Toxicon 54.3 (2009): 354-360.

Kelley, Lauren Grace. The embeddedness of hognose snakes (_Heterodon spp._) in the wildlife pet trade and the relevance of assemblage geographies for reptile conservation. The Florida State University, 2011.

Brandehoff, Nicklaus, et al. "First reported case of thrombocytopenia from a Heterodon nasicus envenomation." Toxicon 157 (2019): 12-17.

Kato, Kasumi, Hiroshi Kato, and Akimichi Morita. "A case of Western hognose snake bite." _Journal of Cutaneous Immunology and Allergy_ 2.1 (2019): 37-38.

Nikfarjam, Ulrike, Stephan Grabbe, and Florian Butsch. "Snake bite of western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus)." _Der Hautarzt; Zeitschrift fur Dermatologie, Venerologie, und Verwandte Gebiete_ (2021).

Zieliński, Damian. "Questionnaire Background on the Hognose Snake (Heterodon nasicus) Breeders’ Awareness of the Risk of Being Bitten." _Animals_ 11.12 (2021): 3537.


I also strongly recommend the book:

Weinstein, Scott A., David A. Warrell, and Daniel E. Keyler. "“Venomous Bites from Non-Venomous Snakes: A Critical Analysis of Risk and Management of “Colubrid Snake Bites." (2011).

Although I have to admit I find the title and much of the discourse within somewhat political as, in the words of Wolfgang Wuster, 'it documents case after case after case of colubrid envenoming, yet the authors tie themselves into pretzels trying to deny venom in those species...'

On the other hand it provides some fantastic documentation of what can happen when people misjudge and underestimate their 'harmless' pets. Sadly the book is out of print but not _too_ expensive and worth hunting out.


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## mooselee (Oct 8, 2007)

I think I've shared this previously but I have a personal experience with a mild hognose envenomation. 

My hoggy was buried in his aspen bedding under his hide when I was cleaning his viv out. I foolishly thought he was in his hide on the other side but as i rubbed the aspen with my finger tips he popped up and bit my little finger. I expected him to let go so I didn't react by pulling back and just stayed still for a few seconds. Then he decided to chow down and I could feel his jaws moving up my finger tip. A few seconds later I felt his fangs go in. Now he was only little, not even a year old, but the pain from those little fangs was incredible. 

I lifted him out of the viv with him still attached and ran his head under the cold water tap. It took him a good 5 minutes for him to finally realise he couldn't eat me by which time the tip of my finger was numb. 

Once he had let go my finger tip up to the fist knuckle was deep red. This spread down my finger to the edge of my hand where the soft flesh is over a period of about 2 hours. My finger swelled, as did the side of my hand. It was very itchy but not particularly painful by this time. It took about a day for the swelling and itchiness to subside. 

So the lesson of the story is, if you can't see your snake, don't go wiggling your fingers through the substrate.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Some very good rational and sensible info in this thread. People really do need to get the silly (& dangerous) myth out of their heads that hog bites are inconsequential. Ditto a similar & even more dangerous myth that adder bites are little worse than bee stings & can't kill you unless you're allergic to the venom!


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## Thrasops (Apr 15, 2008)

wilkinss77 said:


> Some very good rational and sensible info in this thread. People really do need to get the silly (& dangerous) myth out of their heads that hog bites are inconsequential. Ditto a similar & even more dangerous myth that adder bites are little worse than bee stings & can't kill you unless you're allergic to the venom!


Somebody actually asked that (about Adder bites) on the video itself, to which I responded. This is indeed a common, silly and dangerous misconception, I actually answered the same question a few weeks ago on the European Snakes forum.

Adder bites are certainly NOT 'bee stings' - Adders (_Vipera berus_ for non-UK readers) are actually surprisingly toxic snakes although not as dangerous as some of their EU cousins like Asps and Nose-Horned vipers. One has to remember that the EU and UK have a great healthcare system and ready availability of _Vipera_-specific antivenom when required so even when a bite becomes serious, mortalities are very rare indeed. 

LD50 can be as low as 0.5 micrograms/g (intravenous - directly into a blood vessel) and 0.86 (intraperitoneal -within the body cavity) in mice - which is REALLY toxic - but varies dramatically and can be as high as 8 mg/g subcutaneous (under the skin). Adders are quite small so tend to have proportionally tiny venom yields - _V. berus_ on average packs 4-10mg (some sources cite up to 18mg) but of course this will vary with individual size of the snake and when the animal last ate (if it has used its venom biting prey recently it takes time for it to 'refill' as it were). 

Adders are interesting as their bites vary geographically - the 'norm' would be generally cytotoxic effects attacking the blood and vascular systems - blood vessel haemorrhage, impeding circulation and causing depressive action on the heart; it shows proteolytic (attacking proteins), fibrinolytic (breaking down fibrin, in other words an anticoagulant), anticoagulant and phospholipase A2 effects. An eastern subspecies, _V. b. bosniensis_ can also induce some neurotoxic effects (although it is the opinion of many including Dr Wolfgang Wuster that the Italian clade and _V. b. bosniensis_ may be separate species). A Doctor should absolutely be seen following ANY bite from an Adder. 

Following an average bite, one might expect any or all of the following symptoms - swelling around the bite site that peaks around 48 hours post-bite. Pain, swelling and fatigue of the bitten limb. A common side effect is appetite loss and thirst as well as bruising which can become quite severe. This would be an 'average' bite and OFTEN (but certainly not ALWAYS) nothing more might happen - however more severe and systemic symptoms are common and can include hypotension (low blood pressure) tachycardia (elevated heart rate) nausea, giddiness, sweating, coagulopathy (impairment of blood clotting) gastrointestinal symptoms (vomiting and diarrhoea) and neutrophil leucocytosis (overproduction of white blood cells). Victims can become comatose, suffer breathing impairment, swollen lips and tongue, and necrosis around the bite site. Although extremely rare these days, people HAVE died from Adder bites so again - ANY bite victim should immediately be taken to hospital; the rarity of deaths is just as much down to good medical care in these countries than the venom being 'weak' or 'bee sting like' (and they seem to be more dangerous to the east of their range).


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