# breeding mantis's from the same ooth?



## Spencer95 (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi,

I was wondering if you can breed mantis's from the same ooth or is that inbreeding? will I end up with weak or no nymphs at all? 

Thanks,


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## spicewwfc (Aug 26, 2009)

It is in breeding, and it is difficult to do because the males mature quicker than the females. You can do it a few times with little ill effects, but its obviously best to use fresh blood to thin out the gene pool.


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## Spencer95 (Feb 20, 2010)

So isit possible? Or isit not reccomended? Do people often do it?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

it's possible, whether it's ethical or not is open to debate.
it depends how inbred the stock already is....or whether it's a rare species to whether its ethical or not.

if it's rare a couple of generations can be acceptable while fresh blood is found.

the problem with inbreeding is that you intensify any genetic defects

obviously you wouldnt know if joe bloggs at the other end of the country is offering the same bloodline as you....so the odds of inbreeding inadvertently are high anyway....especially with the rarer species in the hobby.

if inbreeding is done just to save a few quid on getting a possible new bloodline then thats not ethical, it's lazy


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## spicewwfc (Aug 26, 2009)

Spencer95 said:


> So isit possible? Or isit not reccomended? Do people often do it?


It is obviously not recommended, and it will cause problems if done to excess, but breeders do, do it, and it wont have any instant detrimental effects, but you will have to thin out the genes eventually. 
Inverts are usually more resilient to inbreeding than most mammals, and reptiles, but it does still effect them eventually.


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## stienbabe (Sep 21, 2008)

Inbreeding in vertebrates is certainly a risky business, but the jury is out when it comes to inverts. Many of the species currently in culture come from one original import with very limited numbers. There is no strong evidence for inbreeding depression or reduced viability from inbreeding in mantids. As previously mentioned, you will need to take measures to ensure that the males and females mature together - the males should be kept cooler than the females and fed considerably less. Hope this is useful.


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## Spencer95 (Feb 20, 2010)

The reason I ask this question, is because I saw some griffin mantis's for sale and I am very intrested in buying some and later on breeding them however they are all from the same ooth.


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## spicewwfc (Aug 26, 2009)

Spencer95 said:


> The reason I ask this question, is because I saw some griffin mantis's for sale and I am very intrested in buying some and later on breeding them however they are all from the same ooth.


You will be fine to do it, it would probably happen in the wild anyway, just dont keep breeding the offspring together, add some fresh blood next generation.


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## Spencer95 (Feb 20, 2010)

I was looking at selling the nymphs on

and okay so i can do it then?


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

I wouldn't worry about it, with the exception of a few species which are still regularly imported, I imagine many common mantid species are inbred to a degree. Inbreeding is pretty common in a hobby like this and certainly in insects it doesn't appear to cause any problems.

Edit: Remember in many cases when you are introducing "new blood" you are more than likely introducing blood which has come from a similar group, or at the bare minimum was collected from the same region in the wild.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't know much about genetics, but I would imagine coming from inbred stock is also more of an issue if you keep "line breeding" a species regardless of how closely related the founder stock were.

i.e. of 10 offspring you only keep one pair even if they seem to be the best (mating one brother to one sister) get ten again only keep one pair again ect ect, if you look at livefood species some of them also came from very small gene pools but the sheer number of animals may provide for lots of gentic combinations.

If someone that knows genetics can correct me on that please do as it maybe a pile of steaming doodoo :gasp:


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## Spencer95 (Feb 20, 2010)

Oderus said:


> I don't know much about genetics, but I would imagine coming from inbred stock is also more of an issue if you keep "line breeding" a species regardless of how closely related the founder stock were.
> 
> i.e. of 10 offspring you only keep one pair even if they seem to be the best (mating one brother to one sister) get ten again only keep one pair again ect ect, if you look at livefood species some of them also came from very small gene pools but the sheer number of animals may provide for lots of gentic combinations.
> 
> If someone that knows genetics can correct me on that please do as it maybe a pile of steaming doodoo :gasp:


^^
Unfortunatly i dont understand genetics very well.

thanks for all the replies everyone


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