# Fastest death via envenomation



## Eyelashviper (Dec 20, 2009)

A woman was struck by a puff adder, and died within 23 minutes, is thought that the fang hit an artery and gave 'maximum effect.'

Is there truth to this fact?


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

anaphylaxis maybe?


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

I've heard the same story, although a little less accurate time scale of "around 30 minutes", again attributed to an arterial bite. I've also read about a reported case of a coastal taipan biting a 6 year old boy 7 times in the thighs and buttocks and killing him in around 10 minutes, apparently due to the small size of the child and the huge dose of venom injected into a well vascularised area.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I don't think its unrealistic, if you take a direct hit in a vein or artery the venom is going to move a lot faster around your body and very rapid death could be likely. I'm sure someone will correct me if im wrong, but to me it seems like a pretty believable story.

Chances of taking a direct hit to a vein or artery have to pretty slim though, not impossible but statistically quite unlikely.


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## Eyelashviper (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi,

If I remember correctly, I heard it from Donald Schultz.

Would be a 'freak' happening, to be unfortunate enough to catch a hit to an artery that's for sure.


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

terciopelo_dave said:


> I've heard the same story, although a little less accurate time scale of "around 30 minutes", again attributed to an arterial bite. I've also read about a reported case of a coastal taipan biting a 6 year old boy 7 times in the thighs and buttocks and killing him in around 10 minutes, apparently due to the small size of the child and the huge dose of venom injected into a well vascularised area.


There was a 4 yr boy who died within 30 minutes post a costal taipan bite, post mortem revealed 12 puncture wounds around his right buttock and inner thigh. In 1979, just north of Townsville.

Fastest deaths due to envenomation are at present attributted to box jellyfish, Chironex fleckeri, ranging from 3-5 minutes post sting.


John


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

SiUK said:


> Chances of taking a direct hit to a vein or artery have to pretty slim though, not impossible but statistically quite unlikely.


At some point it will happen though. Its unlikely but it will happen.



JohnR said:


> Fastest deaths due to envenomation are at present attributted to box jellyfish, Chironex fleckeri, ranging from 3-5 minutes post sting.


Ouch didn't think anything was that bad.


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## _TiMiSdRuNk_ (Aug 27, 2008)

Well i think the best i've heard is a Atrax (sydney funnel web) bite, that it killed a young child in under 15 minutes


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> At some point it will happen though. Its unlikely but it will happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Ouch didn't think anything was that bad.


Not to me I hope!


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

JohnR said:


> There was a 4 yr boy who died within 30 minutes post a costal taipan bite, post mortem revealed 12 puncture wounds around his right buttock and inner thigh. In 1979, just north of Townsville.
> 
> Fastest deaths due to envenomation are at present attributted to box jellyfish, Chironex fleckeri, ranging from 3-5 minutes post sting.
> 
> ...


I reckon that'll be the story I heard regarding the taipan John. Too many details are the same / similar to be different episodes. Perhaps my memory is letting me down or my source was slightly more sensational.
As per the box jelly, correct me if I'm wrong but death within the 3 to 5 minute range occurs only if the victim has had over 2 feet of tentacle in contact with the chest, allowing the cardiotoxins to rapidly reach the heart. Contact with 4 feet or more of tentacle to other bodily areas, including extremeties, also constituting a lethal dose, but over a longer time frame. Unless of course the victim goes into shock and drowns

Dave


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

terciopelo_dave said:


> I reckon that'll be the story I heard regarding the taipan John. Too many details are the same / similar to be different episodes. Perhaps my memory is letting me down or my source was slightly more sensational.
> As per the box jelly, correct me if I'm wrong but death within the 3 to 5 minute range occurs only if the victim has had over 2 feet of tentacle in contact with the chest, allowing the cardiotoxins to rapidly reach the heart. Contact with 4 feet or more of tentacle to other bodily areas, including extremeties, also constituting a lethal dose, but over a longer time frame. Unless of course the victim goes into shock and drowns
> 
> Dave


 Hi Dave

Its estimated that 6-7 m of tentacle is enough to cause a fatal sting in an adult. This may seem alot but when you consider there can be up to 15 tentacles on every corner, each being 3m or possibly longer in length, 6m from a possible 180m is not much.

Research shows that millions if not billions of nematocysts (stinging cells) are involved in severe/fatal envenomations, and as the tubules from these cells penetrate the victim, some are dissecting the microvasculature, causing venom to be diposited within the blood circulatory system and hence the rapid onset of life threatening symptoms within minutes of the sting. 

Those reported severe and fatal stings tend to involve the lower extremities and unfortunately the majority involve children. There have been 68 reported fatalities due to Chironex here in Australia, since records began in 1883, the first fatality was here in Townsville in 1884.

John


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Its estimated that 6-7 m of tentacle is enough to cause a fatal sting in an adult. This may seem alot but when you consider there can be up to 15 tentacles on every corner, each being 3m or possibly longer in length, 6m from a possible 180m is not much.
> 
> ...


Fascinating John. Thanks for that mate.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the British guy that got nailed by the black mamba in Africa last year die within about 30 minutes of the bite?


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

That UK kid was killed in 20 minutes, but it was not an arterial bite. It bit him on the palm.
A game ranger here was killed in under 20 minutes by a juvenile Naja annulifera due to an arterial bite.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

Didn't hear that one Stu but I don't doubt it's possible. I reckon if you put enough venom into a well vascularised area, speed up the heart so dispersal is rapid, or get a freak chance arterial or veinous innoculation then very rapid death is likely.


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## terciopelo_dave (Jun 1, 2007)

mad martin said:


> That UK kid was killed in 20 minutes, but it was not an arterial bite. It bit him on the palm.
> A game ranger here was killed in under 20 minutes by a juvenile Naja annulifera due to an arterial bite.


Martin, would you agree that the kid from the uk died so quickly due to small body weight compared to large venom dose? Possibly coupled with panic that sped the heart up so facilitated venom spread?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

The reports stated that he didn't even know he'd been bitten. He had been walking with a group through chest high grass, and then was watching a demonstration of some kind when he complained of visual disturbance, headache and shortness of breath then collapsed unconscious and was dead shortly after.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

No he didn't.
They caught a juvenile Black Mamba in the bush. They wanted to move the snake into another container so people can see it, and the snake bit him when he tried to startle it into the direction of the container. 
You will know if a poly bit you


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

System collapse and death by a puff adder in under a half an hour is stretching it a wee bit. I’m not saying it is impossible but very unlikely. 
The cytotoxin will eventually shut down the major internal organs such as the liver, kidneys and heart. If the toxin was digested via an artery it would speed this process but I personally doubt a system crash could be expected in under 30 minutes. 

Mass (weight) compared to the amount of toxin would also be a factor but even then a debatable time line exists.


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## BumNum (Dec 13, 2009)

JohnR said:


> Fastest deaths due to envenomation are at present attributted to box jellyfish, Chironex fleckeri, ranging from 3-5 minutes post sting.
> 
> 
> John



I thought that title went to the blue ringed Octopus. but could be wrong.

I know they do kill very quickly do to the paralysis they cause


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## Captainmatt29 (Feb 28, 2009)

BumNum said:


> I thought that title went to the blue ringed Octopus. but could be wrong.
> 
> I know they do kill very quickly do to the paralysis they cause


Thats just crazy and one reason i wont goto aus and swim in the sea lol


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## Eyelashviper (Dec 20, 2009)

BumNum said:


> I thought that title went to the blue ringed Octopus. but could be wrong.
> 
> I know they do kill very quickly do to the paralysis they cause


The box jellyfish, is the most venomous creature on the planet.

The blue ringed octopus is extremely dangerous and can kill, I don't believe there is any form of anti-venom available for this creature, as fas as I am aware, if your unfortunate to cross paths with a 'BRO' you can ride it out as long as you are supplied with oxygen until the paralysis effects subside.


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

If the blue ringed Octopus or the box jellyfish dont sort you out you can always borrow my Monster in-law. Guaranteed to do the trick. 
Even the devil is a little afraid of her. LoL


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

JohnR said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Its estimated that 6-7 m of tentacle is enough to cause a fatal sting in an adult. This may seem alot but when you consider there can be up to 15 tentacles on every corner, each being 3m or possibly longer in length, 6m from a possible 180m is not much.
> 
> ...


is it the box jellyfish where once ashore, your supposed to not move them much at all and pour vinegar all over them? As it destroys or deactivates the nematocysts, either vinegar or alcohol, I think one works and one makes it worse?(could have sworn alcohol makes it worse.)


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

* Box jellyfish, Boxfish, Deadly sea wasp*
15 tentacles grow from each corner of the bell and can reach 10 feet (3 meters) in length. Each tentacle has about 5,000 stinging cells, which are triggered not by touch but by the presence of a chemical on the outer layer of its prey.

*Symptoms and first aid *
The venom of box jellyfish has cardiotoxic, neurotoxic and highly dermatonecrotic components. When injected, it is rapidly absorbed into the circulation. The pain is excruciating; the tentacles become sticky and adhere tightly to the skin. Any attempt at removal of the tentacles while they are still active may worsen the sting and lead to great injuries. Severe stings result in necrosis of the affected skin area. If treatment is not given, the pain may last for weeks and often stings leave significant scars.
Domestic vinegar (never methylated spirits) should be poured over the adhering tentacles to inactivate nematocysts as quickly as possible. When the tentacles become inactive, they can be safely removed. (The application of vinegar is not intended to decrease pain or diminish the effects of the venom; it will only stop further discharging of nematocysts). In case of respiratory or 
cardiovascular failure, basic life support such as artificial respiration and cardiac massage is necessary. Where antivenom is not available, pressure-immobilization of the limbs may be used after inactivation of nematocysts while the patient is transported to hospital.
Indications for antivenom include cardiorespiratory arrest or arrythmias, difficulty with breading, speech or swallowing and extensive skin lesions. Assisted ventilation and analgesics may be needed. Early administration of antivenom will reduce pain 
and decrease scarring. Local pain is usually best treated with ice packs. 

I think urine also assist with pain.


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

BumNum said:


> I thought that title went to the blue ringed Octopus. but could be wrong.
> 
> I know they do kill very quickly do to the paralysis they cause


They can be quick, a full on envenomation, is capable of causing respiratory paralysis anywhere from 15-30 min's, lots of variables involved as in all envenomations. What's unique about this type of envenomation is that the victim would at some point collapse, unable to move, talk, see not even breath, but your fully aware of whats happening and you can still hear all whats going on, and as you lie there you will be praying for someone to start mouth to mouth before you lose conciousness due to the lack of oxygen:devil:

John


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

terciopelo_dave said:


> I've heard the same story, although a little less accurate time scale of "around 30 minutes", again attributed to an arterial bite. I've also read about a reported case of a coastal taipan biting a 6 year old boy 7 times in the thighs and buttocks and killing him in around 10 minutes, apparently due to the small size of the child and the huge dose of venom injected into a well vascularised area.


ring sting or what? :lol2: :whistling2:


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

Snakes Incorporated said:


> * Box jellyfish, Boxfish, Deadly sea wasp*
> 15 tentacles grow from each corner of the bell and can reach 10 feet (3 meters) in length. Each tentacle has about 5,000 stinging cells, which are triggered not by touch but by the presence of a chemical on the outer layer of its prey.
> 
> *Symptoms and first aid *
> ...


Hi mate

Just to update your post, it will be millions of nematcysts per tentacle if not more. Pressure immobilization is no longer recommended for box jellyfish or any other jellyfish sting. And urine is also a no go unless your into 'water sports' lol

John


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## Ozgi (Jun 1, 2008)

I just saw this story on Yahoo and thought you guys might find it interesting.

Miracle Girl Survives Killer Jellyfish Sting - Yahoo! News UK


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## JohnR (Jan 1, 2010)

Ozgi said:


> I just saw this story on Yahoo and thought you guys might find it interesting.
> 
> Miracle Girl Survives Killer Jellyfish Sting - Yahoo! News UK


This case was talked about on a course that I attended recently. The scaring is very extensive, as you can see from the picture. The attending paramedics administered antivenom, which improved her condition. The reason she survived was the fact she was stung by a juvenile animal, and the cardiac toxins responsible for the quick demise in severe stings aren't developed. Another interesting poin was she was 23km inland, swimming in a creek.

John


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2008)

If I got bitten by a hot I would die nearly instantly but that would be from a heart attack before the envenomation could toast me!


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## rob challis (Mar 23, 2010)

Viperkeeper refered a few weeks ago to, I think, an Eastern Diamond Back Rattlesnake bite which killed and elderly man in 9 minutes.

I heard about the Puff Adder bite too if it was the one in South Africa.

I understood that death took over 30 minutes.

Anyway, very sad for a life to be lost in that way however long it took.

Animals will bite and if we are on their turf.........
Regards,

Rob


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

It’s impossible to guarantee the human victim will die within a certain amount of minutes or hours. 
This depends on many factors. Such as: 
Where was the bite. Fatty tissue muscle a vein etc?
How healthy was the victim? 
How old was the victim? 
Did the victim receive an access of venom in comparison to the body weight? Was it a dry bite? 
Does the victim have extreme sensitivity to the toxin?
Was the snake agitated so was the bite a defensive strike or a warning?
Was the temperature effective to the animal being cool or hot? 

Etc. etc. and more etc.


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## Cleopatra the Royal (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi,

sorry i'm a bit late to this thread, only just picked it up.

Correct me if im wrong, but a Puff Adder has cytotoxic venom, which is generally slow to kill, but causes huge amounts of pain. Could you really die that quickly from a tissue-destroying venom, and wouldn't a form of neurotoxin be faster to kill a human? (i understand the different factors, but say in a "standard human" (if you can say that as such) with no allergy to the venom etc...)

thanks for your time,

Harry


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## Snakes Incorporated (Jun 27, 2006)

Cleopatra the Royal said:


> Correct me if im wrong, but a Puff Adder has cytotoxic venom, which is generally slow to kill, ...


 Puff Adder ( Bitis Arietans)

Venom: =	Cytotoxin which causes pain and swelling and superficial to deep tissue damage at the sit of the bite.
The swelling is very painful and can progress from an extremity right up onto the trunk of the body.
Slow acting, it would normally take 24 hours to kill a person.
Death is caused by the loss of fluids from the circulation, causing a fatal shock.
About 5% of bites would be fatal if not treated properly.
A fatal dose is estimated at 100mg for an adult man, and the venom glands have a capacity of 80-140 mg, average 100mg.
Bleeding and kidney complications may occur but are rare.


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