# Just got back from the vets



## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Gordita was diagnosed with a bacterial infection brought on by stress.

I was prescribed a treament of baytril 2.5%, once a day for 3 weeks. 
It should start healing quickly after a few days but
the vet said she will be left with a scar


----------



## LIZARD (Oct 31, 2007)

oh bless her 

I did ask on off topic how she was, if there was any news

hope she gets better soon dude


----------



## jme2049 (Jan 11, 2008)

sorry to hear shes going to scar. Glad she'll live though.


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

At least she should be okay...is it topical or do you have to use a card in her mouth?


----------



## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

i just have to put droplets of it on her back. I just did a treament and it started to bleed a bit  she woke up like it was hurting. I had asked around about treatment before i went to the vets and an antibiotic ointment was recommended, i told the vet and he said that it wouldnt work because it isnt an open wound and the skin is too fragile that if you touched it it would just come off


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Well. I hope she gets better. :flrt:


----------



## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Best of luck. Hope she's alright.


----------



## brynley (Nov 18, 2009)

**

Sorry to hear about this mate, But hope shes ok we can all see how much you care for your froggies

Tim


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Sorry to butt in again...but I have just been reading that Baytil is not really suitable for topical application because it is alcohol based, and perhaps that is why she looked to be in pain? Then I remembered that when I had baytril it was by mouth (for betty) and she had another one as well by mouth, then when the babies were sick it was the second one the vet said could be used topically but then we decided to try saline first (which worked but they had no obvious signs of bacterial infection)

Just in case I think maybe it would be worth trying to get hold of someone on here that has more experience with it, would hate to think prescription could make matters worse. :blush:


----------



## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Topical is fine, I have posted on talk to the frog forum, there seems to be alot of experienced people on there. Just found out that Lamisil AT (an atheletes foot spray you can get from boots!) cures chytrid fungus a few sprays in the water for a course of 10 days does the job apparently!


----------



## Bearnandos (Nov 24, 2009)

There was a simular post on the lizard site - where someones Cham had a bacteria infection - black tea was rec as it has recently been proven to be a safe method for topical use for bacteria infections for animals and humans....just a thought........
Hope all goes well for ya retf


----------



## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Hope all goes well, good luck.


----------



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Sorry to butt in again...but I have just been reading that Baytil is not really suitable for topical application because it is alcohol based, and perhaps that is why she looked to be in pain? Then I remembered that when I had baytril it was by mouth (for betty) and she had another one as well by mouth, then when the babies were sick it was the second one the vet said could be used topically but then we decided to try saline first (which worked but they had no obvious signs of bacterial infection)
> 
> Just in case I think maybe it would be worth trying to get hold of someone on here that has more experience with it, would hate to think prescription could make matters worse. :blush:


I'm 110% sure i told you via a telephone conversation last summer that Baytril, with care, could be used topically with amphibians, and that i'd had good results with it. I could tell at the time that you didn't believe what i was saying


----------



## Brat (Oct 7, 2007)

Your RETF's have THE BEST names I've ever seen on the Forum LOL! Chiquito, Pepito, Benita and Gordita! Ahahaha classic!


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Alex M said:


> I'm 110% sure i told you via a telephone conversation last summer that Baytril, with care, could be used topically with amphibians, and that i'd had good results with it. I could tell at the time that you didn't believe what i was saying


Could be...I have to say that I have been wary in the past about taking advice from any one person, though. It is not to say I dont take it on board. I seem to remeber speaking with someone about putting some in a water dish for them to soak in....? Was that you?


----------



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> Could be...I have to say that I have been wary in the past about taking advice from any one person, though. It is not to say I dont take it on board. I seem to remeber speaking with someone about putting some in a water dish for them to soak in....? Was that you?


The 'Baytril in a water dish' was not me, i may have recommended bathing them in Lamisil but definitely not Baytril. I got the Lamisil idea from a keeper in the States, laboratory tested apparently - it's worked for me. Baytril i've used with success on callidryas, and several other species considered delicate. Lamisil works no question - Hyla gratiosa, which typically carry chytrid due to being collected from the breeding pools they share with Rana catesbiana, are a classic species in the trade for 'crashing' if not treated quickly, and i found that imported gratiosa stopped crashing when i treated them with Lamisil - so my overall conclusion is that i'm very satified that this is a safe method to use. But as for Baytril, the way i use it is to water it down to 1 part Baytril/8 parts water and gently apply to the affected area. I'm very cautious with it, and certainly wouldn't apply it orally, especially without thinning it out somewhat. 
And of course, it's important to get other peoples ideas but i was managing a reptile shop at the time and would have no reason to pull anyones leg. I can only speak from my own experiences. Of course dealing with medication and animals should really only be handed out by someone with the correct qualifications but i know several people on here will agree with me when i say that when we were younger there were literally no vets that could help should a herptile get ill, apart frrom people such as Stephen Divers, they were very few and far between. Saving an amphibians life was often down to using our own ideas, we had no choice and of course sometimes it went well and other times it didn't. A good example is fungal problems. It was obvious to me that fungus needed humidity to thrive so i would always keep an amphibian in a drier environment should there be a problem, i don't mean dry to the point where it would dessicate(!) but a 'sensible' dryness. That seemed very logical to me, no one should need a vet to work that out, and it works in many cases, forget your salt baths and things keep them drier! It's no wonder so many callidryas get so many infections - lower the humidity to what it should be!.


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

I agree with the lower humidity also. With my first trio I followed care sheets :bash: and these said to have humidity at around 75-80% When two of the trio died, my vet actually said that no frog has to have that humidity all year around, and that it is unhealthy. I now keep mine at around 55-60 and have not had any problems since. 

Then when I got the four froglets, and had immediate problems, I got hold of a breeder in America and he said that he found that if they are kept at lower temps it gives the immune system a good chance, he was also the person who recommended hydrating them with saline/water. It worked a treat and the two that made it past the first two days are thriving!

I managed to find this page written by Brian Monk, he is one that agrees with the bayril not being used topically, not to say you are wrong, obviously you are having great results, but my vet agreed that the 2.5% solution he originally prescribed me to be taken orally would not be suitable for topical application for the same reason. It is not wonder I get so confused with all the information I am given/find..maybe I should start writing it down and filing it by topic, source, outcome ect! :lol2:
ADG #32 VETERINARY NOTES - What do I do with my new frog(s)

Again, I am not doubting you, just wanted to see what you thought?


----------



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ilovetoads2 said:


> I agree with the lower humidity also. With my first trio I followed care sheets :bash: and these said to have humidity at around 75-80% When two of the trio died, my vet actually said that no frog has to have that humidity all year around, and that it is unhealthy. I now keep mine at around 55-60 and have not had any problems since.
> 
> Then when I got the four froglets, and had immediate problems, I got hold of a breeder in America and he said that he found that if they are kept at lower temps it gives the immune system a good chance, he was also the person who recommended hydrating them with saline/water. It worked a treat and the two that made it past the first two days are thriving!
> 
> ...


Hh Marieanne, i will read that thoroughly and respond when i get more internet time this afternoon. I got as far as reading that frogs should be quarantined for 4-8 weeks....

WHAT?!?

That is simply not a long enough quarantine period! I do hope Lotte pipes up now, i don't think you'd find the staff at Jersey Zoo etc would quarantine a frog for just 4 or even 8 weeks in their bio-secure unit and then add them to an existing group of animals!. We certainly didn't do this at Banham Zoo in Norfolk, and that was circa 1996 - we knew better than that!. For this reason, i would find it hard to accept much of what's said in that article, but i will have a read. Thanks for putting it up though Marieanne, i'm sure it will raise some very interesting points.


----------



## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

I quarantine for 12 weeks. This is what I mean by finding so many differing points when it comes to these animals. One vet believes one thing, another something else, we all pip in on forums with our experiences, and of coarse then you get articles such as this one and people, such as myself, that read from many sources try to distinguish what advice is reliable. It is very difficult. 

Anyway, I too would be very interested to hear what others have to say. It would be nice if we could all decide amongst ourselves, what works and what doesnt. Seems to be the way we do everything else...and perhaps if there were more sites like this that do it like that with everyones input it would not be so bloody confusing! :lol2:

After all, the only thing I care about is doing the best I can by my animals, and chose my vet as carefully as I could, so hope he is giving me all the right advice.


----------



## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

Baytril is often used topically on Amphibians, oral administration is more common for Reptiles and so some vets will still advise it to be administered orally for Amphibians too.

Did the vet take a swab to see what bacteria was involved and did he mention checking the rest of the group?



On the topic of Lamisil I would advise people to be very careful, I believe the laboratory testing was done using the active ingredient Terbinafine only and not Lamisil as a whole. Many hobbyists have been scaremongered into using it prophylactically - with mixed results. I also believe the Lamisil spray we get here in the UK is made up differently to that in the US.


----------



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

After typing a huge reply, my laptop crashed when i tried to send... Typical!.

So, what i will say is this. I totally agree with Andrew that people should be very careful using Lamisil (and any other medication including those used readily with herptiles), but especially those treatments that are in their infancy, and am in no way suggesting everyone goes out and uses it on their ill frogs etc - but i am happy to say that it certainly did a good job for me. It was thought that it had no side effects but it was/is very much in it's infancy, and it's also quite feasible that the mixed results can stem from slightly different dosages used between keeper to keeper and species to species - I personally can say that i have had good results with it (which i believe to be the UK version), though albeit a slightly weaker solution, the difference with the Hyla gratiosa being a very good example, as fellow staff at Reptiles Plus would testify. Regarding Baytril, nice to see some backing on this - Personally, i've never heard that you couldn't use Baytril with amphibians so don't know who started that one but i can 110% guarantee you that it's quite incorrect to say that it can't be used topically! It certainly can be - there's absolutely no question about that .


----------



## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

The no-side effects comes largely from the fact people aren't keen to publish their failings on the internet so you don't really hear of the down sides to some of these things without really digging around for it, that and when hobbyists do loose animals they usually simply speculate that they were too late with the treatment or whatever rather than having them checked out.

The lamisil treatment was initially largely publicised by one individual trader who was supplying animals for the testing, I tried to discuss it with him through forums and through email and I think I'm correct in thinking he didn't use the Lamisil himself (despite recomending it to others) but instead used the Terbinofine supplied by the lab he supplied the animals to. Incidentally I've not seen or heard anything of the guy in a long time.

It would indeed appear that it's effectiveness could be somewhat species specific, the majority of the species being tested initially were all imports from one area and a limited number of large hardy CB frogs such as Ceratophrys. And I agree that obviously the doseages and treatment regime used by hobbyists will have varied from person to person. But my biggest concern and the biggest unknown in all of this is if the frogs being treated with Lamisil had Chytrid in the first place - it appears that the vast majority of hobbysits carrying out Lamisil baths are doing so prophylactically without even having them swabed and tested as it was advertised as being safe to do so and the fore mentioned trader that publicised the treatment advised everyone to treat in this manner. This prophylactic treatment of animals without Chytrid may be the cause of the deaths, perhaps treating animals with Chytrid is safe but treating those without Chytrid isn't safe as they are more able to absorb the ingrediants of the lamisil. Until these things are tested properly and peer-approved by other laboratories it's all just speculation and I'm probably not helping by adding to it :hmm:

Anyway I'm glad it worked for you with the gratiosa : victory:


----------



## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I kept my new frogs in a low humid environment from day 1, i never misted their tank ever and it stayed around 40% i don't know how her condition came about, the other 2 are fine. Her behaviour hasn't changed and she is still up and eating.

I have to ask one question though regarding her treatment, do i have to apply it to the infected area because I just did today and she started wiping at the spot i put it on with her hands and because the area is so fragile her rubbing has caused it to bleed alot. It also started to bleed at the bottom of the area where some of the baytril went.


----------



## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

I have used both lamisilspray, and baytril orally on my salamandra, both with very satisfying results, likewise im not saying they are the be all and end all of treatments but in the cases of my use:no1:


----------



## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

andaroo said:


> do i have to apply it to the infected area because I just did today and she started wiping at the spot i put it on with her hands and because the area is so fragile her rubbing has caused it to bleed alot. It also started to bleed at the bottom of the area where some of the baytril went.


What did the vet advise?


----------



## LIZARD (Oct 31, 2007)

hows is she today dude?


----------



## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

I thought the vet would have advised a silver sulphimide cream for that rather than baytril, as its not good on skin


----------



## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

We had a golden mantella with a similar lesion recently, the entire area of skin ended up sloughing off.

He was treated with baytril topically initially and given ringers baths for an hour daily, in addition to being supplied with a plain water and a ringers soln. dish.
The swabs taken for bacteriology revealed baytril resistance so we switched to Ceftazidime, then Gentamycin... the wound edges appeared to begin healing but then he simply died suddenly.

My main point though is the importance of swabs for bacteriology being taken so you know exactly what you need for such an extensive lesion. Speak to your vet about Amphibian Ringers Soln. if they could make some up it might help immensely (during extreme stress, illness or injury ringers soln. takes away some of the pressure of regulating other systems in the body aiding a better chance of recovery).

The skin looks thinned/blistered so as your Vet said using a cream such as Flamizine (Silver Sulpadiazine) or F10 barrier would do more harm than good. If the skin is going to slough off eventually, it's definitely better to try and prolong it giving the tissues below more time to begin healing.

Best of luck with your wee un 
Lotte***


----------



## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

There is no doubt, thats ringers solution is some good stuff, used it on an axolotl once, and it pulled it around.


----------

