# How are spider royals bred?



## goodwin1234 (Mar 23, 2008)

Probably a silly question but im really not clued up on royal morphs and cant seem to find the answer on google:blush:


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

spider is a dominant base morph...

spider x normal:

50% normal
50% spider

chance per egg


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Same way any other royals are bred. Put a spider royal in with another royal of the opposite sex. :whistling2:

Spider royal mated to normal royal produces
1/2 spider (with a spider gene paired with a normal gene)
1/2 normal (with two normal genes)
(The fractions are the probabilities per egg, not per clutch.)

There is no such thing as a normal-looking het spider royal python.


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## goodwin1234 (Mar 23, 2008)

Sorry i never realised that spider was a base morph! :blush:


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

goodwin1234 said:


> Sorry i never realised that spider was a base morph! :blush:


The only base morph is 'Normal'!

Spider is co-dominant, so even one copy of the gene results in visual offspring, so there can be no hets. : victory:


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

Grond said:


> The only base morph is 'Normal'!
> 
> Spider is co-dominent, so even one copy of the gene results in visual offspring, so there can be no hets. : victory:


base morph = non-combo
spider = dominant


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

alan1 said:


> base morph = non-combo


I'm not sure that's what he meant though.



alan1 said:


> spider = dominant


True enough! It's late, I'll go and stroke my lovely normal royals instead! :lol2:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Grond said:


> The only base morph is 'Normal'!
> 
> Spider is co-dominant, so even one copy of the gene results in visual offspring, so there can be no hets. : victory:


The definition of "heterozygous" is one of the commonest mistakes on herper web pages.

There are two genes in a gene pair. All gene pairs are either homozygous or heterozygous (slang = het). A homozygous snake has a homozygous gene pair. A heterozygous snake has a heterozygous gene pair.

A normal-looking snake looks like most of the snakes in the wild. A normal gene is the gene that is the most common in a given location in the cell chromosomes in the wild snakes. A mutant gene is a gene that is NOT the most common in a given location in the cell chromosomes in the wild snakes. 

The two genes in a homozygous gene pair are the same. Either two copies of the same mutant gene or two copies of the normal gene.

The two genes in a heterozygous gene pair are not the same. The gene pair may have either two different mutant genes or a mutant gene and a normal gene. If a mutant gene and a normal gene, the mutant gene can be dominant, codominant or recessive to the normal gene. If two different mutant genes, one mutant gene can be dominant, codominant or recessive to the other mutant.

A spider royal with a spider mutant gene paired with a normal gene fits the definition of "heterozygous". Such a spider royal does not look normal, which simply means that the spider mutant gene is not recessive to the normal gene.

By the way, both dominant and codominant mutant genes produce a visual effect when heterozygous. It's worth reviewing the definitions of dominant, codominant, and recessive.

Two genes (A and a) make three gene pairs, AA, Aa, aa. I am using A and a like unknowns in algebra. They can be defined however you wish, as long as they are potential members of the same gene pair.

If A is dominant to a, then the AA and Aa animals look alike, and neither looks like the aa animals. Three pairs of genes that produce two appearances.

If a is recessive to A, then the AA and Aa animals look alike, and neither looks like the aa animals. Three pairs of genes that produce two appearances.

If A is codominant to a, then the AA animals have one appearance, the Aa animals have a second appearance, and the aa animals have a third appearance. In other words, you can look at the animals and tell what the genes are. Three pairs of genes that produce THREE appearances. Tiger in the reticulated python and lesser platinum in the royal python are codominant to their respective normal genes.



alan1 said:


> base morph = non-combo
> spider = dominant


I know how "base morph" is used, but Grond is right -- the base morph is normal. Normal is the starting point, and everything else is one or more mutant genes different from normal. A spider royal pythons genotype is one gene different from the normal royal python's genotype.

The Jury is still out on whether the spider mutant gene is dominant or codominant to the normal gene. Spider is not recessive to normal, so in that sense spider is a dominant mutant.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

paulh said:


> I know how "base morph" is used, but Grond is right -- the base morph is normal. Normal is the starting point, and everything else is one or more mutant genes different from normal. A spider royal pythons genotype is one gene different from the normal royal python's genotype.


i understand what you're saying paul...
everyone in the royal world, labels non-combos as 'base morphs'
example: spider has been given the title of 'base morph', because that's the basic gene needed (mutant or otherwise) when shooting for spider-combos

dont forget, we are talking 'morphs' here... a morph is NOT a normal 



> The Jury is still out on whether the spider mutant gene is dominant or codominant to the normal gene. Spider is not recessive to normal, so in that sense spider is a dominant mutant.


tens of thousands of spider royals out there, and no proof of a super found yet? 
with a 1:4 chance of hitting a super, you would've thought it would have shown itself by now


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

alan1 said:


> tens of thousands of spider royals out there, and no proof of a super found yet?
> with a 1:4 chance of hitting a super, you would've thought it would have shown itself by now


Do you know of a Homozygous Spider out there then Alan?


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

Blackecho said:


> Do you know of a Homozygous Spider out there then Alan?


i think we've all been very naughty boys and girls. consequently, the odds-gods are not being nice... 
i'm sure one will turn up soon (give or take 10 years) :whistling2:


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

lol - that's some seriously bad odds so far


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

alan1 said:


> i understand what you're saying paul...
> everyone in the royal world, labels non-combos as 'base morphs'
> example: spider has been given the title of 'base morph', because that's the basic gene needed (mutant or otherwise) when shooting for spider-combos
> 
> ...


I never use the term "base morph". So not everyone uses it for single mutations.

Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com defines morph as "an individual of one particular form, as a worker ant, in a species that occurs in two or more forms." Nothing there about ignoring the normals.

I doubt that there are more than a few thousand spider royals around. If there were tens of thousands the price would be lower. 

I'd have expected a homozygous spider to have shown up by now, too. There are at least two explanations, but no one has done the work needed to test them. That's why the jury is still out.


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

Lethal like Woma.


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