# training a bad dog



## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

We are fostering a lab/collie cross for a gentleman who was undergoing surgery. We've had her since around Easter time and we thought she'd be going back last month but her owner is unfortunately still too unwell to take her back.

We've had her at classes which focused on positive re-enforcement but in all honesty they've failed to make any real impact on her. She is extremely excitable, bouncy and loud and being a medium/large dog it can be difficult to handle her when out on walks. Stewart and I were very reluctant to try and alter her behavior too much given she's a foster dog but we've been told that her owner would appreciate it if she were easier to manage both at home and out on walks for when he takes her back. 

Stewart and I have decided to use techniques from this website - Stan Rawlinson Doglistener Dog Behaviourist, Trainer Training Behaviour] 

The training techniques use a mixture of positive re-enforcement and sound therapy (by use of a jinger). I thought it might be useful to record our progress.









The problems we're going to attempt to address are

- Jumping up
- Snatching food
- Pulling on the lead
- Inconsistent recall

Skye is a very happy dog who loves meeting other dogs but she gets so excited that she ends up intimidating a lot of them (along with their owners). She also gets really excited when she sees strangers and will jump up at anyone entering our flat. She cannot be allowed off-lead due to her over-enthusiasm for greeting both dogs and people and the fact her recall is practically non-existent. We have to take her to a secure dog park to be exercised properly as she loves to run around but can't be trusted in anywhere other than a secure area. 

*Method*
The first words/commands we've taught Skye are "Off", "Good" and "Take it". We've used a simple technique to teach her that we're in charge of food and she can only take a treat if given permission. This involved offering a treat along with saying "Good, take it" around 5 times. After this we offered a treat and didn't say anything and when she went to take the treat we pulled our hand back, turned our face away, said "off" and sounded the jinger at the same time. She very quickly picked up that "good" was her target word and that "take it" was her permission to take the treat. 

This is the technique in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wStZaQGIDaM

Here are a few videos of her after a week or so of this training (around 10mins a day), she no longer snatches food and we're hoping to use the "off" command to combat her jumping up at people.

This is me using small biscuits
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE8A...dOcGKNpQZo3y4w

This is me using pieces of hot dog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOTp...Zo3y4w&index=1

Now that we've got these commands sorted we're moving on to sit/stay which will form part of her recall training. I'm also attempting to teach her to walk a bit better on the lead.

This is an example of how Skye is on a lead currently, the parts where the camera loses focus on her is when she's almost succeeded in pulling me over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qWh...dOcGKNpQZo3y4w

*Method*
To train her to walk to heal we're using a longish lead held firmly in the right had and loosely in the left so that the lead is across the body of the person walking her. When she starts to pull ahead we're turning 80 degree and giving a few twitches on the lead to activate the jingler, this is supposed to make the dog understand that pulling results in the change of direction (in this case back to our flat). This is going to take a good long while to perfect I think as Skye tends to get extremely excited when outside.

This is after 30mins of training, not perfect but an improvement I think. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twno...Zo3y4w&index=1

Perhaps tomorrow I'll get Stewart to film her walking to heal after her training, it's possibly hard to see how much better she was in the second vid as I was filming as I went. 

This is her doing a good sit stay, we are gradually increasing the time and distance we're expecting her to stay. I also feel that this clip demonstrates how reluctant she can be sometimes to follow commands (the time it takes to get her to sit at the start).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmRi...Zo3y4w&index=1

I'm hoping to keep this updated with our progress and would welcome any tips or advice.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

A bit more work on walking to heal tonight, this is in a secure dog park not far from where we stay. I was very pleased with the way she's walking on the lead tonight but of course it'll need re-enforced and we're taking her to the dog park for exercise for the next week or so to ensure that she's having training when on the lead.

The video was taken 15mins into training tonight, she's had around 45mins of training on the lead with the jingler at this point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyFA...ature=youtu.be


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## morphtastic (Aug 18, 2012)

It looks like your doing a really good job. There are 2 things that I might do.
1. Not to be too exciting when you praise her (like in the stay video) until you have the jumping up sorted. I'd use a lower tone and crouch down, praising her in the sit position with strokes and yummies.
2. She knows what sit means quite obviously, so when you ask her to sit and she ignores you then insist with your hand in her collar and gentle upward pressure repeating the command. Then praise when she's in position.
Good for doing all of this work for a foster dog. Her owner will have a much easier time if he follows your training advice!!


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

morphtastic said:


> It looks like your doing a really good job. There are 2 things that I might do.
> 1. Not to be too exciting when you praise her (like in the stay video) until you have the jumping up sorted. I'd use a lower tone and crouch down, praising her in the sit position with strokes and yummies.
> 2. She knows what sit means quite obviously, so when you ask her to sit and she ignores you then insist with your hand in her collar and gentle upward pressure repeating the command. Then praise when she's in position.
> Good for doing all of this work for a foster dog. Her owner will have a much easier time if he follows your training advice!!


Thank you for this morphtastic, the jumping up is a problem and we had no idea that a high tone of voice would encourage it. 

For some odd reason she hates to sit on grass, she always sits at the first time of asking in the house or when on the garden path. :gasp:


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Sounds exactly like Ted haha.

Regards food stealing, Ted counter surfed a lot when we first got him, and now we either a - don't leave food out where he can grab it, b - use a loud "uh uh" as a correction when he gets near something he's not allowed, which normally stops him in his tracks. Regards taking treats from us, he will go to grab it initially, and normally once he feels finger between his teeth he backs off a bit. My bf is also teaching him "nicely" which means he can't have the food until he's gentle. He's picking it up quickly, but sometimes he's just too giddy to care lol. Obviously if other family members want to give him something I say either to put it in their palm, or to give him a long treat so he can get hold of one end without catching their hand.

Ted will try and jump up with new people, but generally, if we have hold of his collar, or his harness, he won't try and jump up so much, he just sort of wiggles around. I know they say the best thing to do is teach them a really good sit, because they can't jump up if their bottom is on the floor. The other thing I say to people if he does jump up is to turn their back on him and walk away so he drops down. He only does it to be friendly, so if they ignore him, he gets disappointed and stops bothering them.

Regards walking on a lead, we have to walk Ted on a harness as it's not safe to walk him solely on a collar because he's a greyhound and his head is thinner than his neck. We're a bit stuck with him pulling, but generally in new places he pulls more, and if he's tired or ploddy he pulls a lot less. In terms of recall, we got told to take high value treats, hot dog sausage, cheese, cooked liver, and to let him know you have it before you let him off the lead. The other thing is, ours loves to chase, so if he naffs off, all we have to do is shriek and run in the opposite direction, and he turns around and chases us instead (normally...). You can also try getting a 12ft long lead which allows them to wander and come back. No good with a greyhound though, acceleration means they get to the end of the lead far too quickly.

Do you find that yours gets so giddy with other dogs, that they then become defensive because she's so OTT?

^^ This is our main problem, and the lack of contact is only making Ted worse so we're going to be seeing a dog trainer in the next few weeks about it.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Sounds exactly like Ted haha.
> Regards food stealing, Ted counter surfed a lot when we first got him, and now we either a - don't leave food out where he can grab it, b - use a loud "uh uh" as a correction when he gets near something he's not allowed, which normally stops him in his tracks. Regards taking treats from us, he will go to grab it initially, and normally once he feels finger between his teeth he backs off a bit. My bf is also teaching him "nicely" which means he can't have the food until he's gentle. He's picking it up quickly, but sometimes he's just too giddy to care lol. Obviously if other family members want to give him something I say either to put it in their palm, or to give him a long treat so he can get hold of one end without catching their hand.


Funnily enough stealing food has never been a huge problem with any of the dogs we've had. I'm a member of a facebook group that has a lot of resources to common training problems. The group is called Modern dog training and behaviour advice but they have a seperate resource page here:

https://www.facebook.com/moderndoggroup/photos_stream

I'm going to try to teach a solid "leave it" which Skye does already have a reasonable grasp of. 




> Ted will try and jump up with new people, but generally, if we have hold of his collar, or his harness, he won't try and jump up so much, he just sort of wiggles around. I know they say the best thing to do is teach them a really good sit, because they can't jump up if their bottom is on the floor. The other thing I say to people if he does jump up is to turn their back on him and walk away so he drops down. He only does it to be friendly, so if they ignore him, he gets disappointed and stops bothering them.


I found this video which I'm hoping to use when I can arrange for a guest to drop by. Skye is massively bad for jumping up at people, she greets us well and just sort of walks up to us when we come in while wagging her tail but she's almost pushed my mum down the stairs due to jumping up at her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVWYCrWuLGs



> Regards walking on a lead, we have to walk Ted on a harness as it's not safe to walk him solely on a collar because he's a greyhound and his head is thinner than his neck. We're a bit stuck with him pulling, but generally in new places he pulls more, and if he's tired or ploddy he pulls a lot less.


We're trying to get Skye walking on a harness just because I feel it'll be more comfortable when she does inevitably pull. my old dog was wonderful on a lead and you ended up looking down to make sure she was still with you a lot as the lead was always so slack but one time she got spooked by something and attempted to make a break for it. The fact we had her on a harness rather than a collar I think was what prevented her from escaping that time. 




> In terms of recall, we got told to take high value treats, hot dog sausage, cheese, cooked liver, and to let him know you have it before you let him off the lead.


Skye's recall is fine so long as there's no distractions around and she'll go through anything to get to where she wants to be. For that reason we can't let her off the lead at all unless we're in a secure area. Luckily we have a dog park around 2 miles away that has several secure paddocks for dog owners to use. When she's let loose in there she runs off to sniff everything then afterwards doesn't tend to go outwith a radius of around 10 feet of us. 



> The other thing is, ours loves to chase, so if he naffs off, all we have to do is shriek and run in the opposite direction, and he turns around and chases us instead (normally...). You can also try getting a 12ft long lead which allows them to wander and come back. No good with a greyhound though, acceleration means they get to the end of the lead far too quickly.


We have a couple of long training leads which we're using to enforce Skye's recall as well as giving her a bit more freedom when out on walks (far easier to run and stand on the end of a big long lead than to try and catch her). 



> Do you find that yours gets so giddy with other dogs, that they then become defensive because she's so OTT?


Yes and this is one of the biggest problems we have with her, she's not aggressive she just really wants to greet and play with all other dogs. We normally end up having to physically restrain her and let the other dog owner walk past. She barks and whines when she realises she can't get to the other dog and frankly it is a bit embarrassing. We need to find a way to counter this as it makes walking her extremely unpleasant given we live in a village. Positive reinforcement would be difficult in this situation as there's no positive behaviour to reward. We're hoping to counter it by getting a loan of a dog Skye has never met and simply walking towards it. If she starts to misbehave we'll go in the opposite direction until she gets the message that acting like a bit hairy maddy is going to result in her being forced away from the other dog.


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## kemist (Jan 25, 2009)

Luckily the dog doesn't sound naughty or aggressive just excitable and in need of lessons in how to behave. For the recall I would stay start small and reward (toy treat or fuss) every time he comes to his name and increase the distances and distractions as he improves.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

kemist said:


> Luckily the dog doesn't sound naughty or aggressive just excitable and in need of lessons in how to behave. For the recall I would stay start small and reward (toy treat or fuss) every time he comes to his name and increase the distances and distractions as he improves.


That's pretty much it, she just loves to play with other dogs. She doesn't understand that by bouncing around like a ninny she ends up intimidating a lot of them. She's been very good when we've had doggy visitors to the house but when out on walks its a different story.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I think you're doing a great job with her, the only sad thing would be if the owner doesn't keep it up, because it doesn't appear that he's done any sort of training with her as she's grown up.

I hope, after having you do all the work for him, that he carries on and doesn't let her relapse.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

> Yes and this is one of the biggest problems we have with her, she's not aggressive she just really wants to greet and play with all other dogs. We normally end up having to physically restrain her and let the other dog owner walk past. She barks and whines when she realises she can't get to the other dog and frankly it is a bit embarrassing. We need to find a way to counter this as it makes walking her extremely unpleasant given we live in a village. Positive reinforcement would be difficult in this situation as there's no positive behaviour to reward. We're hoping to counter it by getting a loan of a dog Skye has never met and simply walking towards it. If she starts to misbehave we'll go in the opposite direction until she gets the message that acting like a bit hairy maddy is going to result in her being forced away from the other dog.


We have it with Ted, he'll see a dog and he's barking, lunging, tail going round like a windmill. It's ridiculous. He has managed a bit of nice sniffing with some dogs, but generally he gets this manic look in his eyes and he'll go up to the side of their face, freeze, then he does a massive playbow and launches himself off hoping they'll chase him. A 14 week old puppy once took one look at him, hid behind a car, and had to be carried by it's owner because it refused to walk past him. Poor Ted wasn't even barking, he was just staring and wagging lol.

We were told to do a watch me command, ie - get his attention on you with a treat while the dog passes, but IMO, this isn't solving anything. It still means that when he actually meets a dog he'll be just as giddy as before and won't know how to behave. It's like he needs a tutor dog, to tolerate his stupidity and show him how to play nicely.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

The "watch" command was one of the first things I taught Skye when I got him. He was 11 months old, very high anxiety levels, very high energy levels and no training, socialisation or stimulation. He was quite literally all over the place. "Watch" got him to focus on me, although it was very hard, when he was panicking, to concentrate on me, never mind anything!


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Definitely feel your pain. Ted has been a nightmare today, we took him out with my sister-in-law's dog, and the two of them could not have been more socially inept.

Ted spent the entire time yelping, barking, and generally insanely hyper and wound up. Abbie, the other dog, sniffed his bum a few times, but as soon as he went near her to sniff her face / bum, she lunged at him baring her teeth and going for his neck, AND managed to pull me over twice (including one time into a nettle patch, complete with brambles and rocks, and I think on the way down I managed to punch myself in the face, because my cheekbone hurts like hell). All in all not a good day.

I'm sure in a week's time I'll be able to laugh... Maybe.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

How long have you had him?

I've had Skye for 4½ years and he's still a work in progress. He's fear aggressive, because his anxieties and lack of socialisation and stimulation made him frightened of everything. He'd never been out on a road, so was terrified of traffic, didn't know how to react to people and would grab at them as they walked past and basically just didn't understand 'dog body language' and so went for every dog that came anywhere near him.

We managed very quickly to get over his fear of traffic and I dealt with his fear of people by spending an hour twice a week in a local town walking up and down the main street, working on the basis of flooding him with people until he just didn't react. 

His dog aggression was the most difficult to deal with, because I only have a couple of friends with dogs and they were both medium sized breeds and Skye was so spatially unaware, he just crashed into them and terrified them so I gave up. He used to lunge and bark at every dog he saw and when I saw a dog I just used to make him sit and 'watch' (bloody difficult) and try to keep him calm until they passed. 

The best thing I did was to join a GSD dog walking group run by German Shepherd Dog Rescue 1½ years ago. Again figuring that to flood him with dogs might de-sensitise him and it worked. I muzzled him because I didn't want him to hurt any other dogs and on our first walk, he was basically stupid. He barked non-stop when we arrived and at every dog that arrived after us, once we started walking (they recommend new dog start at the back of the group) he nearly pulled my arms out of my sockets. When we reached a large open area everyone let their dogs off and the guy in front of me told me to let him off, I said I was worried because I knew he would go for the closest dog and the guy said that was his dog and he was good natured and wouldn't retaliate and as Skye was wearing a muzzle he wouldn't do him any harm. So I let Skye off and sure enough he charged straight at Riley and went for the back of his neck, Riley basically told him to F.Off. Skye realised that he couldn't get hold of Riley, but that Riley hadn't attacked back and after that he was fine. He's never gone for another dog on one of these walks since.

However, he has a very high prey drive and very strong herding instincts and when we were in wide open spaces if an owner threw a ball and their dog ran after it, Skye would chase after them to try and bring them back and would attempt to nip their bums, so I keep the muzzle on him at the beginning of walks. He knows when he sees that muzzle that he's going out with other dogs and he's so excited cannot get his head in the muzzle quick enough. Nowadays we only have it on him for the first 15 minutes, just until he's burned off a bit of energy and calmed down and then we can take it off. it's the best thing in the world to see him behave like a normal dog :flrt:

Now when we're out and he sees a dog (and even before he (and I) sees them he gets their scent and his behaviour tells me there's a dog about to appear), he prances and his hackles go up, but he doesn't lunge or bark. At first if the dog barked at him he would bark back, but now most times he doesn't bark back at them. Best thing we ever did.

If there's a GDSR walk anywhere near you, they'd welcome you, they don't confine their walks purely to GSDs, we have Labradors, retrievers, mongrels, rotties and JRTs in our group, but primarily there will be 20+GSDs.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

feorag said:


> How long have you had him?
> 
> I've had Skye for 4½ years and he's still a work in progress. He's fear aggressive, because his anxieties and lack of socialisation and stimulation made him frightened of everything. He'd never been out on a road, so was terrified of traffic, didn't know how to react to people and would grab at them as they walked past and basically just didn't understand 'dog body language' and so went for every dog that came anywhere near him.
> 
> ...


We've had him about 10 months. He's made fantastic progress in that time; when we got him, he was scared of sudden movements near him, doors shutting etc. He was also terrified of shouting (though he soon learnt the neighbours yelling had no effect on our household), and was frightened if we threw a toy that we were going to throw it at him / hit him with it. Additionally, when he had an accident in the house we ignored it and cleaned it up, and he was all creepy for an hour afterwards; walking past us really submissively and trying to lick us. Eventually he realised that accidents = nothing, but going in the garden means a big party thrown in his honour. That was another thing, he wouldn't poo in front of us, or in the garden. We soon got over that by making a huge fuss of him when he went outside, and now when he does a poo in the garden, he struts into the house all proud of himself, gets mini-zoomies where he races around for a bit, and then sits down wagging his tail haha.

He's become much more confident, and settled, he LOVES to wrestle with my boyfriend, and he comes running at you like a little horse flailing his legs around haha. He can also now sit, lie down, give both paws on command, and jump up on command as well (the main reason for teaching him this, was more to try and control his jumping so we can give him the command rather than him deciding to do it off his own back).

I suppose looking at it listed out like that, and remembering how bad his separation anxiety was, ie - barking and howling for hours straight, scratching up all the walls, chewing through doorframes, weeing in the house etc, I feel a bit happier because really now it's just a case of refining his other behaviours and getting this reactivity sorted out.

He really is a very sweet dog, so so playful and vocal, but also extremely loving and cuddly. He's currently curled up like a little cat on my boyfriend's legs. He's the first dog I've ever owned, and though my boyfriend has had dogs all his life, he's never had a rescue dog before, and Ted is nothing like any dog he's ever met before apparently.

I will definitely look into the dog walks, he has gotten on great with some dogs and I think the right dogs would give him a fantastic outlet to burn off some steam. Also, if we can get him a bit more settled, it will mean we can look at flyball, which I think he would love. He's a smart chap, and we know this barking and lunging is only because he's doing what he feels is the right thing to do, and not because he's spiteful or stupid or a nasty dog.

He did make me smile last night though, we went for a drive in the car, and he had eaten some grass out on a walk earlier. We didn't think much of it, and soon enough he was fast asleep on the back seat, but bless him, as soon as he got out of the car, he tottered into the garden, went behind a wheelie bin and puked it all back up again. Couldn't believe that he'd been seemingly holding it in while we were in the car.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

There's something very rewarding on taking on a dog that hasn't been brought up properly, isn't there.

It was 9 months before Skye actually brought a toy to us and asked us to play and I wanted to cry. He'd obviously never been interacted with. He would chase a ball until he dropped down with exhausting and I think that's the only exercise he ever had, someone chucked a ball and he brought it back, although he wouldn't hand it back to you then. I don't call that playing, I just call that exercising.

When we knew we were getting him the first thing my husband went out and bought was a rubber ring, because he would play tug-o-war with his previous GSD for hours, but whenever Skye had the ring in his mouth and Barry tugged, he'd just let go. It was over 6 months before he realised the concept of tugging back and making it a game.

I see you're in West Yorkshire, so this will be your closest GSDR walking group (if you're on Facebook) https://www.facebook.com/groups/GSDNorthernwalk/. I would suggest you join the group and then you'll find out when the next walk is. If I remember it right they hold their walks on the 2nd Saturday of every month, but they're a group that also do a lot of 'unofficial' walks in smaller groups throughout the month. The walks are always listed in the "Events" tab at the top and their next official walk is this coming Saturday at Coxley Woods, Wakefield. they also have a member who lives on a farm and she does fun agility at Copmanthorpe, which I would do myself if it was a little nearer.

We did our second GSDR walk with them, because at that time they also covered Teeside, so they were having one that was not far from Yarm and we went down for it. On that walk there was a Labrador, 2 Dalmations a Rottie and a mongrel and the mongrel was the worst behaved! :gasp: Went for loads of dogs all the way through the walk (he was wearing a muzzle), but no-one bothered. They're a great group of people in that group - it can be very large, like 40+ dogs, but they're all big dogs and can take the hussle and bussle of enthusiastic dogs and the owners of the dogs understand that not all dogs are perfect, so neither you nor Ted will be judged and that's important imao.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

some initial progress with the "look at me" command

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WVVUykqF9W4

She got a bit fed up at the end


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

feorag said:


> There's something very rewarding on taking on a dog that hasn't been brought up properly, isn't there.
> 
> It was 9 months before Skye actually brought a toy to us and asked us to play and I wanted to cry. He'd obviously never been interacted with. He would chase a ball until he dropped down with exhausting and I think that's the only exercise he ever had, someone chucked a ball and he brought it back, although he wouldn't hand it back to you then. I don't call that playing, I just call that exercising.
> 
> ...


I've always been a big advocate of rescuing where possible, above buying from a breeder, and I agree that seeing them develop is great. We have a rescue bunny at home and it took him a good 2 years to come round but he's wonderful now. We are at least Ted's 3rd owner so it's no wonder he came with some baggage. He was picked up as a stray by a dog warden in october 2012, really poorly, nasty cough, and a bad ear infection in both ears. By his teeth they estimated he was about 2 years old, but obv we don't know for definite. He was then rehomed to an older couple with visiting grandchildren, who had him for a year and then brought him back to dogstrust. He'd only been back there 2 weeks when we saw him and picked him up.

His previous owners said they were leaving him at home too much and felt guilty about it, but I think in reality he was probably wrecking their house when they went out, was far too boisterous with the visiting children and they had listed that his favourite food was "a cup of tea and a cheese slice" and his favourite game was ripping up tennis balls. All in all, sounds like they did very little with him. Within a week of living with us he was sitting beautifully, lying down and giving one paw (never mind it took us 3 months to teach him to give the other one haha). He also had clearly never been taught about soft mouth either, and playing tug with him, he would catch your hand all the time grabbing back at the toy. He learnt pretty quickly that not being careful meant a squeal from mum/dad, and the game ended. You can see the little cogs turning now before he grabs the toy and if he feels he's hurt you he's very quick to lick you and sidle up to you. He uses his legs a lot too which he's had to learn to control better, ie - standing on dad's nuts isn't a great way to get him to play with you, and IS a good way to get pushed off the sofa lol.

He's a very smart dog and I can imagine he turns destructive very quickly if he's not got something to keep his mind busy. He loves digging food out of his kong, playing tug of war, wrestling with my boyfriend in particular (though he's wary if someone new tries to wrestle with him, and will normally yelp and back off even if he's not hurt), and then he's got a whole plethora of cuddly toys that are on a rotation system 5 mins at a time otherwise he'd just destroy them and stuffing would be all over the living room haha. Mark said to me the other night, that he would be a great dog to have as a kid growing up, bouncy dog that you can really rough and tumble with but doesn't mouth and is so much fun.

I remember when we first went to see him, I was really wary of him. He came out of his pen (which was round the back, away from the public, boarded up because he was barking relentlessly at the other dogs he could see), and he was just wired. Dragging the staff along behind him, eyes and ears everywhere and just looked absolutely manic. We took him out, and he was pulling, and SO strong, and I said to Mark, I can't hold him and he's too much. He did not care at all about us, we could have been beamed up by a spaceship and he wouldn't have even glanced he was that focused on being outside. Mark had fallen in love with him though, so we came back the next day and took him to play fetch in one of their pens. He was very sweet and played with us, but at the same time he'd not get too close to us, and used to bring the ball back, but put it on the floor 4ft away from us or throw it at us from afar. After that I started to realise that actually he was just very stressed and not coping in kennels and actually just wanted to relax and do something he enjoyed.

That's great thank you for the link. I will join it now. He did very well today on the watch me command on a walk today. A little JRT came towards us, so we crossed the road, and in a soft voice told him to sit down and basically gave him treats one after the other. He turned around a few times to look, but each time I said "what's this?" his little head whipped round for another treat. No barking, no lunging and he took one final look and then we carried on walking


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That's exactly what Skye did when we first got him - dropped the ball about 4feet from us, but when we went to pick it up, he'd pick it up again and run away - very frustrating. And he pulled like a train too, hyper excited and raring to go - anywhere!!!

the tug-o-war we have the same problem. He's constantly trying to gain 'purchase' on the tug toy and regularly hits your knuckles with his front teeth and it hurts. The best toy for that is a very heavy, solid rubber American Football toy that has hollows - hard to describe, so here's a photo of him playing with it in the garden on our holidays.




You can see that if we hold the opposite end to the one he has in his mouth, no amount of grabbing to get a better purchase would make his teeth reach our knuckles because the other section of rubber stops it.

BTW I'm very conscious that we've 'taken over' Middleton Mouse's thread about their dog, so I think if we continue this convo we should do it either by pm or on the 'dog chat' thread and leave them to talk about their dog and her training - do you think?


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

feorag said:


> That's exactly what Skye did when we first got him - dropped the ball about 4feet from us, but when we went to pick it up, he'd pick it up again and run away - very frustrating. And he pulled like a train too, hyper excited and raring to go - anywhere!!!
> 
> the tug-o-war we have the same problem. He's constantly trying to gain 'purchase' on the tug toy and regularly hits your knuckles with his front teeth and it hurts. The best toy for that is a very heavy, solid rubber American Football toy that has hollows - hard to describe, so here's a photo of him playing with it in the garden on our holidays.
> 
> ...


I was literally going to say the same, sorry Middleton Mouse!

How long do you envisage having your foster pup for? By the way, how come you've ended up with her if she has a full time owner?


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

Please do continue your convo here, I'm really passionate about rescue dogs so it's lovely to read your experiences with your own especially with training. :2thumb:

EDIT: We were asked to foster her as her owner had an accident and required surgery. Unfortunately he had no one to look after the dog and couldn't afford long term boarding so he got in touch with the Dogs trust which is where he got her from. They offered to place the dog with a foster carer until he was able to take her back again.

Originally we were supposed to have her until July but were asked to keep her another month. At the weekend we were asked if we wanted to keep her as her owner had been told he was unlikely to recover from his op enough to take her back. We're happy enough to keep her and know that our efforts in training her will definately not go to waste now.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Middleton Mouse said:


> Please do continue your convo here, I'm really passionate about rescue dogs so it's lovely to read your experiences with your own especially with training. :2thumb:
> 
> EDIT: We were asked to foster her as her owner had an accident and required surgery. Unfortunately he had no one to look after the dog and couldn't afford long term boarding so he got in touch with the Dogs trust which is where he got her from. They offered to place the dog with a foster carer until he was able to take her back again.
> 
> Originally we were supposed to have her until July but were asked to keep her another month. At the weekend we were asked if we wanted to keep her as her owner had been told he was unlikely to recover from his op enough to take her back. We're happy enough to keep her and know that our efforts in training her will definately not go to waste now.


Ok well only if you're sure lol, I can talk for England.

Ah see initially, I read it from your first post that the dog was having surgery and that's why I couldn't understand why she'd been moved to a different home. Poor owner, I'd be devastated to be in that situation.

That's great that they've offered you to keep her, rather than insisting she comes back and they find a new home for her. How does she get on with your other dog? It will be much easier for you now I imagine, knowing that you have all the time in the world to work with her and keep building her confidence so she knows what is and isn't acceptable in your house  I think it's a great thing that you're doing. I'm not sure I'd be able to foster as I'd just want to keep them all hahah.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Ok well only if you're sure lol, I can talk for England.
> 
> Ah see initially, I read it from your first post that the dog was having surgery and that's why I couldn't understand why she'd been moved to a different home. Poor owner, I'd be devastated to be in that situation.
> 
> That's great that they've offered you to keep her, rather than insisting she comes back and they find a new home for her. How does she get on with your other dog? It will be much easier for you now I imagine, knowing that you have all the time in the world to work with her and keep building her confidence so she knows what is and isn't acceptable in your house  I think it's a great thing that you're doing. I'm not sure I'd be able to foster as I'd just want to keep them all hahah.


She gets on really well with Jake, she likes to play and Jake isn't a very playful dog but they often cuddle up together. At first he was quite intimidated by her but now he just walks away if she's being too much.

Here they are a few weeks after she arrived

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd5_6C5jIrA&list=UUTiWq1pLjbPNWl9A8T4BQgw


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Middleton Mouse said:


> She gets on really well with Jake, she likes to play and Jake isn't a very playful dog but they often cuddle up together. At first he was quite intimidated by her but now he just walks away if she's being too much.
> 
> Here they are a few weeks after she arrived
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd5_6C5jIrA&list=UUTiWq1pLjbPNWl9A8T4BQgw


You see the way she runs with her bum tucked under? That is EXACTLY what ours does, when he gets mental giddy. I will try and find a video that shows it...


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Found and uploaded a video.

This was post dinner, post poo a couple of nights ago...

http://s809.photobucket.com/user/Linzi322/media/IMG_0149_zps56096b6b.mp4.html


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Middleton Mouse said:


> Please do continue your convo here, I'm really passionate about rescue dogs so it's lovely to read your experiences with your own especially with training. :2thumb:.


I'm with Lindsay, if you don't mind us having this convo on your page, I'm happy to carry on too! :2thumb:


Middleton Mouse said:


> Originally we were supposed to have her until July but were asked to keep her another month. At the weekend we were asked if we wanted to keep her as her owner had been told he was unlikely to recover from his op enough to take her back. We're happy enough to keep her and know that our efforts in training her will definately not go to waste now.


Oh dear! I didn't realise that his situation was that bad and that you'd been asked if you wanted to keep her permanently. Such a shame for him, but maybe better for the Skye to have an owner who cares enough about her to spend time teaching her the correct behaviour. 

In that first video, they are very alike and make a lovely pair of dogs, but I'm a tad confused by the second video because that's a black and white dog??

Jason, my first dog, who was a Labrador used to have those kind of pure joie de vivre moments (that was what I used to call them, cos it was like he was just so happy) where it was like he forgot he had a tail and it hung down like a banana. I used to love watching him do that. Shepherds, in my experience, don't do that bum tuck, floppy tail thing when they are happy.

As we are keeping this convo on the page, I'll answer your query here Lindsay about my dogs. So potted dog history :lol2:

As a child my mother wouldn't let me have a dog, or indeed a pet, I tried everything, even hunger strike ( :lol: ) but nothing made any difference. When I was 18 she finally relented and I got Jason my yellow Labrador and I absolutely adored him, he went everywhere with me, even on honeymoon. Once I had a home of my own it didn't take me long to achieve my longstanding dream of owning an Afghan Hound and when my son was 4 months old I got Tara my black masked gold bitch. My first husband was killed only 3 months later, so that left me with a baby and 2 dogs. I re-married a man who didn't like dogs (tell me why, please??) but he finally agreed to let me have another Afghan, if Tara's breeders bred a black & tan (which they never had!) because he quite liked them. They did! So a year later Zorah (Tara's nephew) joined us.

I lost Jason 3 years later and was devastated, but happy enough with the 2 Afghans. Tara died in the December (2 days after my birthday :sad when she was 9 and both me and my son were devastated. That left me with one dog and the vision of what my life would be when I lost him - dogless!! So I began my fight to have another pup. 

We were living in Hampshire at the time and the lady next door bred GSDs and had had a litter of 13 pups the previous October. All the bitches had sold (11 of them), she was keeping the short haired dog for showing, but that left the longhaired black and tan boy and she wasn't advertising him because it was to near Christmas, so I told her to keep him cos I would have him. It took me until January to cajole my then husband to let me have him and he finally agreed. However, the depression I went into when I lost Tara was barely lifted by the pup and the fact that I was living with a man who didn't like dogs and wasn't very kind to them and so in the July I left him, with my then 2 children and 2 dogs and came back to the north east.

I moved in with Barry, who had his own 6 year old GSD and hell reigned for the first year. Zorah and Amber as 2 adult dogs didn't get on and regularly fought and Leo being a juvenile ate the kitchen. I lost Zorah 2 days after my birthday a year after Tara and that left us with Leo and Amber who got on very well together. Amber went a couple of years later as he had hip dysplasia pretty badly and was in a lot of pain and that left me with Leo. He was a very anxious dog and had spent his life hiding behind the other dogs and Barry and I agreed that being a dog on his own might bring him on better than if we got a pup, cos he'd just hide behind that one, so that left me with just Leo. I lost him when he was 12 year old (really broke my heart that one) and by then the children had grown up and left home and I was working full days, so it wouldn't have been right to bring a puppy into the home, so we decided to remain dogless and concentrate on our cats until I retired.

So 16 years after losing my last dog, the time was finally right and we decided that we should rescue (the situation with dogs needing home was never as bad way back in the 1970/80s) as it is now and we got Skye.

That was the biggest wake up call in terms of dog ownership that I've ever had and he has been, and still is, a challenge, but he's been well worth it.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

feorag said:


> I'm with Lindsay, if you don't mind us having this convo on your page, I'm happy to carry on too! :2thumb:
> Oh dear! I didn't realise that his situation was that bad and that you'd been asked if you wanted to keep her permanently. Such a shame for him, but maybe better for the Skye to have an owner who cares enough about her to spend time teaching her the correct behaviour.
> 
> In that first video, they are very alike and make a lovely pair of dogs, but I'm a tad confused by the second video because that's a black and white dog??
> ...


That's amazing. I always like hearing about how people end up with their animals! 

For me personally I've always been an animal nut, managed to coerce my parents into my first pet aged 6, when we got a pair of guinea pigs. I'm pretty sure I've always loved dogs, but the answer was always no as my dad worked ridiculous hours, my mum worked part time and me and my brother were at school. Also, my mum has an allergy to dogs, although Ted doesn't seem to make her itchy or wheezy at all. So anyway, we had lots of piggies growing up, and then when I was 9 I got my first bunny, and we adored him. He used to spend the days in the house with us, but he had a lot of problems and in all we only had him 2 years before he died of shock in a thunderstorm while we were on holiday. It took me ages to get over it, because I really adored him, and when I was 13, I decided to get another bunny, Harvey. He was my absolute best friend throughout my teenage years, and when I was 15, we got him a girlfriend bunny Rosie. They were completely inseparable, and spent all their time together. When I was 18 I got another bunny, Amber, in the hope of having a trio, but it never worked out, so we ended up with two pairs and got a rescue bunny this time as her boyfriend, Rex.

I lost Harvey at 8 and a half because he contracted e-cuniculi. And it was truly devastating to have him put to sleep. We still have Rosie, Amber and Rex though, who are now 9, 6 and 6/7 respectively. Alongside this we had lots of hamsters and little animals, and at 16 I got my first reptile, my bearded dragon.

In terms of my boyfriend, his parents had Pip their JRT before they had kids, and she died when he was about 10. Around the same time, they got a little mongrel puppy called Honey, who amongst naughty things like eating a gearknob when they left her in the car once, escaped over an 8ft fence, disappeared for 3 days and came back pregnant at about a year old. She had 9 pups, and they kept one, Charlie, so then they had two bitches. Honey passed away in feb this year, at 14, and they still have Charlie though she's getting unsteady on her back legs now.

Once I moved out of home and in with Mark (bf), his dogs were still at home, though we were due to take Charlie to live with us, but she was so stressed and whiny, that we took her back to his parents, and she just flopped out like we'd been abusing her lol. We decided it was too much at her age and she was much happier there, so we started to look into getting our own dog. I'd brought my little albino hamster up with me, and my lizard, and obviously I wanted to adopt, so we went to dogstrust and lo and behold saw Ted. My parents had the kibosh on any more pets at theirs, so now I'm moved out, i'm starting to look at more reptiles in particular. I'd love a bird, a parrot or something, but with Ted it's just not an option because of his prey drive. The reptiles will be in their own room and not lose out, but it would be unfair to keep a bird shut away by itself when they like to be involved in day-to-day life.

What about you, M. Mouse? How did you end up with yours?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That's interesting, I love to hear how people got involved in animals and whether they had always had them or only got them as adults.

Your comment about taking Charlie to live with you when you moved in with Mark was interesting, because when I got married Jason was 6 and I thought it would be better to leave him with my parents and then I could start again with a puppy, but he had other ideas.

I worked in a village 15 minutes away from my parents, so when I first married we lived in a flat another 25 minutes past my mum's, so I used to take him home to the flat on Friday evenings for the weekend, drop him off at my mum's on Monday morning on the way to work and he would stay there until Friday, although I always called in to my mum's on the way home from work every night for a quick cuppa cos John finished an hour after me and we only had the one car. 

When I lived at home, Jason would start to fidget at about 5:00pm because he knew I was due home, so my mum used to let him out into the front garden and he would sit at the gate until I pulled up, however, once I started leaving him overnight he changed. When my mum let him out into the front garden he would jump over the gatepost and literally lie in the middle of the road, stopping the traffic (thankfully it was a quiet street :gasp: ) until I pulled up. that was when we realised that really he wanted to be with me. As I fell pregnant with my son on our honeymoon, I only worked full-time for 7 months after I married and after that he came to live with me and my parents got a puppy. Interesting after almost 15 years of not letting me have a dog that my mother realised she couldn't live without one when I took my dog away!

We did have a cat when I was very young, because we lived in old property in the middle of town and in those days everyone had a cat because of the house mice problem. However, when we moved to a new house in the country and that cat took ill when I was 10, he was pts and that was the end of cats in the house. The only pet I was allowed at home was a goldfish and a budgie, so I took full I was so obsessed with them I asked if I could stay monitress for another year!

When I was 14 I started horse riding at a local riding school and within a year was working there full-time at every free moment for free riding and teaching children. So for the next 4-5 years I lived, ate and breathed horses. Afterwards I started riding my friend's point-to-pointers over the winter, so have always ridden until the last 15-20 years.

Once I married and had a home of my own, I bred hamsters, gerbils and had another budgie as well as the dogs and every since have never had one single pet. Apart from the above, I've also had rabbits, ducks, rats, snakes and latterly APDs. I'd have wall-to-wall animals if Barry didn't keep me under control :lol2:


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Found and uploaded a video.
> 
> This was post dinner, post poo a couple of nights ago...
> 
> IMG_0149_zps56096b6b.mp4 Video by Linzi322 | Photobucket


That's like Skye and Jake when they realise they're going out. I'm working on getting them to react more calmly by taking their leads off and pretending that we're not going out after all. :whistling2:


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## kieron2014 (Aug 20, 2014)

I haven't read the whole post just the original one so I do apologise if I am going over anything said.. we only ever have rescue dogs (mainly staffys Make great family pets don't get me started on staffys are bad dogs) 

a lot of our dogs are on the verge of being put to sleep as no one wants one them, 

All our dogs have behavioural issues, and also sometimes aggression issues through no fault of their own but their previous owners  

We tend to use the tough luck approach. The LOUD approach, and the ONE word commands..

Such as DROP IT, or SIT, or NO, or GOOD, and treats, we never hit or punish our dogs we just ignore them when they do bad or they need to stop which usuaully works with all our dogs..

The moor tougher dogs which say need that extra attention we use the love very much technique, give them no love or attention for say 24 hours when we first get them, then walk in and give them as much attention for what they need, normally after 3/4 months we have an amazing well behavioud dog. some of the dogs will still pull on leads but a tug on a chest harness will be good, BUT not if they have been used to fight with the tug method for fighting dogs..

obviously your dog is different its a good but over excited dog, take the dog into the living room/ lounge/ sitting room/ parlour and make it sit in a firm voice, pushing on its bum, give it a treat every time it sits, if it doesn't sit ignore it for a few minutes, and same for the wait command have some one holding the dog and saying wait wait wait, then the word come is used the other person lets go and he gets treat, do this until he can wait and come on command  hope this help


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

feorag said:


> In that first video, they are very alike and make a lovely pair of dogs, but I'm a tad confused by the second video because that's a black and white dog??


:gasp: 
Don't know where my brain was yesterday - well I do cos I'm up to the eyes in painkillers at the moment, but just read the last post and it clicked about the 2 videos! :lol2:


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

feorag said:


> :gasp:
> Don't know where my brain was yesterday - well I do cos I'm up to the eyes in painkillers at the moment, but just read the last post and it clicked about the 2 videos! :lol2:


I did wonder but didn't want to point it out. :lol2:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:lol2: Senior, drug induced moment! :lol2:


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm same on the wall-to-wall animals feorag. Luckily my bf is getting more and more into reps  For him, he's a little reluctant just because it's a total unknown, and a lot of his family are afraid of snakes which he has sort of inherited.

I think it's really nice for children to grow up with animals, my best friends growing up were my animals, because I was really unhappy at school, and I've always said that if I have kids I want them to be surrounded by animals as well.

Personally, I don't think the tough love approach would have worked with our dog, as he was quite worried and fearful initially. I understand that it does work with some rescue dogs, but Ted just used to go into himself when he got frightened and a dog that does that a lot can become unpredictable which we really didn't want. So for us it was very much all about confidence building behaviour and using a soft tone of voice, and now we can tell him off without him getting worried or thinking we're going to hurt him.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

feorag said:


> :lol2: Senior, drug induced moment! :lol2:


Lol that would be my numpty.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yeh! Tough love wouldn't have worked with Skye either, I don't think.


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

PigeonYouDead said:


> *I'm same on the wall-to-wall animals feorag*. Luckily my bf is getting more and more into reps  For him, he's a little reluctant just because it's a total unknown, and a lot of his family are afraid of snakes which he has sort of inherited.
> 
> I think it's really nice for children to grow up with animals, my best friends growing up were my animals, because I was really unhappy at school, and I've always said that if I have kids I want them to be surrounded by animals as well.
> 
> Personally, I don't think the tough love approach would have worked with our dog, as he was quite worried and fearful initially. I understand that it does work with some rescue dogs, but Ted just used to go into himself when he got frightened and a dog that does that a lot can become unpredictable which we really didn't want. So for us it was very much all about confidence building behaviour and using a soft tone of voice, and now we can tell him off without him getting worried or thinking we're going to hurt him.


Another animal "addict" here. At the moment, we "only" have 6 though (2 dogs, 2 corn snakes and 2 Tarantulas), but hopefully will be getting 2 ferrets soon and I'm only just getting into spiders and have a few on my wish list. My husband keeps whinging about it, but he was the one wanting ferrets and seems quite interested in the spiders, too. 
My boys love it and I strongly believe that being involved in the care of pets makes them responsible and caring people (the older boys also love the fact they can "gross out" (some) girls with their more exotic pets, lol).


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

BMo1979 said:


> I strongly believe that being involved in the care of pets makes them responsible and caring people


Definitely with you on that one Brigitte.

That's why I'm a volunteer Blue Cross Children's speaker. I believe getting to children when they're young and teaching them to respect animals might prevent them being cruel to an animal when they are adults.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree about children being involved in animals. Also, I think it's sad when you see adults that are grossed out by anything that isn't small and fluffy. Kids aren't grossed out by slime or scales or bugs, and I think if you can harness that fascination young it can carry through to adulthood, and make them think "hey, instead of screaming and spraying this bumblebee with deodorant, maybe I can put it in a glass and chuck it out the window".

It's taken me 8 years to get over a serious phobia of maggots, due to a really upsetting experience when I was about 9/10, and a lot of what solved it was changing my thinking to "it's a caterpillar". I can pick them up now and actually have them on my hands without freaking out. I'm getting better with house spiders too which just makes life a bit easier.

My brother used to be scared of dogs, mainly because he got chased by a boxer when he was about 4, and obviously being a little kid if a big dog is chasing you, even in play, it is scary. The owner was useless at calling the dog off, and in the end my dad had to grab my brother in one hand and the dog in the other. He still doesn't like dogs that jump up, and is very wary of dogs he doesn't know, but he loves big dogs that are ploddy or floppy. Our dog absolutely adores him, when I go home to stay at my parents, every morning Ted busts the door open into his room, jumps on his bed and starts looking at him waiting for him to wake up. When my bro came up to stay, Ted even sacked us off and slept on the bed with him both nights haha.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

How are you getting on with your dog now M.Mouse? Fingers crossed for good news!

We moved house at the start of this month, and it's taken us a month to get internet up and running so I feel like I've missed lots.

So so pleased to report that Ted seems much much happier and more settled here than he ever did at our old house. Whether it's because the previous tenants had a female dog living here and he can smell her, or because he has a nice big garden now or what I don't know, but the first night we were here he paced for about an hour and then just flopped out. We've had a couple of accidents, but as far as I'm aware, no barking / howling or scratching up the doors / windows, and he's even starting to sleep by himself for half the night in the front room before padding into our bedroom.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

We are still having some difficulty with Skye so we had a behaviourist in Wednesday last week to see her. 

As I thought her major problem is that she's excited about everything (not just seeing other dogs). This is what's causing me to have so much difficulty in getting through to her (she's so excited by practically everything that she's not really listening to me). Even spoken praise and receiving treats is heightening her excitement so this why we're having trouble training her. we mentioned that we'd been to positive re-enforcement based classes that preach praise/treat for good behaviour. However the behaviourist reckoned that this wouldn't have been doing her much good as she wouldn't have been all that aware of what she was doing and being rewarded for as the environment would have been quite over-stimulating for her. 

Some things we've been told to do at home:

- Give her a specific spot in the house where she goes to chill out.

- Not to give her attention when she demands it (this was something we were doing that I hadn't really noticed). 

- To only give treats and affection when she's completely focused on us. Previously she liked to come and sit next to one of us but face away so she could keep an eye out for anything interesting going on elsewhere but still receive pats).

- To wait until she's calm before putting her lead on and then leading her outside. 

Ultimately we're aiming to have a calmer dog, Skye absolutely thrives on attention (basically she's a brat). She's going to be going on weekly group walks with other calm dogs so hopefully this will help her gain a good attitude to other dogs. We can now get her outside to the garden in a completely calm manner (will see if I can take a video later).


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I know exactly where you are - my Skye is exactly the same. Also his anxieties make the situation even worse.

Training sessions have to be kept very short, as he gets so excited at the attention and if he doesn't get something right after a couple of attempts, he then begins to panic and just get stupid, so we have to stop.

Good luck and keep us informed of how things go.


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## Middleton Mouse (May 16, 2013)

A small progress update on this thread.

We now have a dog that stays in her bed unless called 90% of the time. We've been speaking softly and stroking her gently when she presents calm behaviour. She's a lot better with guests (still very excited when they arrive initially but does calm down if sent to her bed and will, thereafter, interact nicely. Walks are still a bit hit or miss (especially when we encounter off-lead dogs) but she has been well behaved on group walks.

Here's a wee vid of her and Jake getting attention because they were being calm having went to their bed. Previously it wasn't possible to pat Skye without her getting excited which would manifest itself in quick movements, licking and jumping up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=0pP7PFOzGuA

Skye is on the left.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That's great progress! :2thumb:


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