# Constant Waterchange System



## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Been thinking this through for weeks now, thought i'd put up my ideas and ask for criticism and ideas to improves.

What you'd do, 2 tanks, same volume (not sure if this is vital?)
Tank 1:
Actual fish tank, no filter needed, just spot-cleaning. heater, and the obvious, substrate,decor,fish etc...
Tank 2: 
Mixing tank. nothing but water and a heater.
HMA unit pumps water into mixing tank, with the water being heateso its the same temperature as the actual tank. For the initial filling of the mixing tank, you heat the water to temperature first, so both tanks are of same temperature.
I'm unsure of what to use to pump the HMA water at the SAME RATE as its coming into the mixing tank, into the actual tank, and from the actual tank, out (waste)
Works as a big cycle so you have a constant water change taking place, with the option to switch it off overnight

Positives:
all ammonia, nitrite,nitrate is being removed as fresh, clean water is being pumped into the tank. Very clean water! No filter needed! Almost self-sufficient tank, 

Negatives:
probably wouldn't be easy to set up and would take a lot of adjusting to get it to work correctly.


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## bigpig (Dec 8, 2009)

Is this just a tank and a sump?
If I had room for two tanks Id want them both to have fish in.
two questions spring to mind:
Why not just have a decent sized filter?
Why would you want to turn it off at night?


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't understand where the waste water goes.

Why use a spare tank, why not just a large mixing tub? i.e something cheaper.

It's a great idea and obviously does work as lots of people do it.


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

bigpig said:


> Is this just a tank and a sump?
> If I had room for two tanks Id want them both to have fish in.
> two questions spring to mind:
> Why not just have a decent sized filter?
> Why would you want to turn it off at night?


No, it is sort of similar, but the "sump" if you like is having a constant supply of fresh HMA water. 
its different to having a decent filter, your nitrates are not removed with a filter, this constantly removes nitrate and inserts new, nitrate free water into the tank


Morgan Freeman said:


> I don't understand where the waste water goes.
> 
> Why use a spare tank, why not just a large mixing tub? i.e something cheaper.
> 
> It's a great idea and obviously does work as lots of people do it.


Waste leads to a drainpipe. 
Yeah you could easily use a mixing tub!
Nah i'm not sure people do this. the mixing tub would be a tub heating fresh HMA water which is pumped directly into a setup, whilst old, water is pumped out,as long as temperature/ph is the same the fish would benefit from having no nitrate,ammonia,nitrite, in the water, ever.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

The effort setting up surely outweighs having to do constant water changes.

Sorry, more questions, basically cos I'd like to do this when I have a larger tank.

What sort of exchange rate will you use? 10% a day?

Does the HMA unit attach to your mains supply, how does it work?

How/when do you add dechlorinator?


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> The effort setting up surely outweighs having to do constant water changes.
> 
> Sorry, more questions, basically cos I'd like to do this when I have a larger tank.
> 
> ...


The HMA is claimed to remove chlorine (and heavy metal....not good if you're a sabbath fan ).

This does sound like a good idea if you can get the mechanics to work in a domestic environment.

If you set the flow rate carefully, you could have a constant influx of fresh water.....heating being the main thing to work out there in a cooler country.

I'm guessing that the idea of the second tank is a temp buffer.

Are you going have the system on a timer? (eg like a garden sprinkler system).

Maybe a plastic water storage tank from a hardware store might be cheaper and better than an second tank, and it will also allow easier positioning than glass.

ian


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

Whats a HMA unit?


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## igmillichip (Feb 7, 2010)

Heavy Metal Axe.


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

Sounds dangerous


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

sounds like more effort than it would be worth really. Think if I wanted to go filter-less I would try heavy planted lighty stocked eco-system type set up. Constant water change? I cant really see the point, if you need constant water change, why, to achive what? Unless you want to really overstock a tank or something otherwise you may as well just use a good external filter.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I just found an inline filter thingy that apparently removes chlorine, its designed for koi ponds and just fits in your hose.


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## Jack0 (Sep 28, 2009)

Not sure if this would work but how about mounting some sort of water tank above the fish tank. Have it dripping into the fish tank, with an overflow on the fish tank leading to the drains.

Were would the fresh water be coming from? An R/O unit? I've seen id done before were people have hooked up R/0 systems to drip into the tanks and have overflows on the other side. The only problem I could see would be making sure theres no dead spots, you would need some sort of water movement atleast.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Add a Koralia or something.


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## caribe (Mar 21, 2010)

I used to have an RO system dripping into a big VAT that i used to have coral sand in the bottom and some live rock. Constantly kept salt in it and it worked great so the water was at the perfect temp and salinity when I was doing water changes.

Had a valve on the side of the VAT that when it dropped low it started to top itself back up


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## Blurboy (Feb 9, 2007)

Why bother? Put filters in both tanks and then have two tanks containing fish. You cannot beat a decent filtration system and you'll still need to change the water at some point. It's basically a sump tank your thinking about but with no filtration which I don't get. Bacteria in a filter works in your favour so why get rid of a system that is proven to work. Honestly, just use a good filter and everything will be fine.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Blurboy said:


> Why bother? Put filters in both tanks and then have two tanks containing fish. You cannot beat a decent filtration system and you'll still need to change the water at some point. It's basically a sump tank your thinking about but with no filtration which I don't get. Bacteria in a filter works in your favour so why get rid of a system that is proven to work. Honestly, just use a good filter and everything will be fine.


Bacteria wouldn't build up as he's constantly flushing old water and adding new, fresh water all the time.

The old system is great, but it's good to try new things and push the hobby further.


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## Jack0 (Sep 28, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Bacteria wouldn't build up as he's constantly flushing old water and adding new, fresh water all the time.
> 
> The old system is great, but it's good to try new things and push the hobby further.



Well said:lol2:


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## chalky76 (Aug 23, 2007)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Bacteria wouldn't build up as he's constantly flushing old water and adding new, fresh water all the time.
> 
> The old system is great, but it's good to try new things and push the hobby further.


Is he not referring to friendly bacteria that assist with filtration? I was wondering the same thing. Surly if you over cycle you would loose the colonies of friendly bacteria that you would have built up. 

I guess it depends on the species to be kept. I have Malawis and I basically do a water change every week or two (20-30%) however it is a real nausea. I was thinking that it would be great to put on some sort of overflow tap (with a hose leading to the garden) and just put the garden hose in the tank for 10 minutes. Result would be a very easy water change indeed. Has anyone tried this system? 

Also it depends on the species to be kept. Although all fish should be kept in optimum water quality ultimately some species are more forgiving in their husbandry then others.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

The only reason I wouldn't do this is the cost, I'm also not sure I'd be at ease wasting so much water.


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

A water container above the tank sounds more work-able
You don't have bacteria as the only reason for them in a filtered tank is to remove the ammonia, etc... and this wouldn't be needed in a CWS (constant water change system)
Yes, it is more expensive, but i am going to trial this on 2 small tanks and see how well it works in removing the ammonia,nitrite,nitrate.


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## Jack0 (Sep 28, 2009)

The T Lord said:


> A water container above the tank sounds more work-able
> You don't have bacteria as the only reason for them in a filtered tank is to remove the ammonia, etc... and this wouldn't be needed in a CWS (constant water change system)
> Yes, it is more expensive, but i am going to trial this on 2 small tanks and see how well it works in removing the ammonia,nitrite,nitrate.


I would be interested to see your method and results, you should defo make a thread about it or add onto this one.

What sort of volume tanks would you be using?


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Jack0 said:


> I would be interested to see your method and results, you should defo make a thread about it or add onto this one.
> 
> What sort of volume tanks would you be using?


Very small for the moment, a 5 litre cube. Not sure how accurate that is, but its a small tank either way. Probably going to use it for shrimp to feed my map turtles : victory:


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

How well would the fish fare? i thought the whole point of cycling was to provide a stable environment with the correct levels of bacterias/Phs/chemicals etc in it? 

Wouldnt an almost completely sterile environment such as this be bad for fish?


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## anth.payne (Jul 28, 2009)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> How well would the fish fare? i thought the whole point of cycling was to provide a stable environment with the correct levels of bacterias/Phs/chemicals etc in it?
> 
> Wouldnt an almost completely sterile environment such as this be bad for fish?


Yes it wuld be bad for the fish... there's a big difference between clean, and sterile. A clean environment for the fish is what is needed...

There's no way you could pump in & out the exact amount required... you couldnt balance it - you'd need to implement some sort of overflow system.

Koi keepers sometimes do this, with a very slow fresh water feed and an overflow on the pond, at a rate of about 5-10%/week

I used to find my auto top-up unit would give me enough water change... i would end up with about 5-10%/week due to evaporation


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

I dont see the problem, pure water, heated to temperature, no ammonia,nitrite,nitrate...


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Why is a sterile environment bad for fish?


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Morgan Freeman said:


> Why is a sterile environment bad for fish?


Bacteria feed off fish waste and other gunk that is in the substrate/filter/water:2thumb:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

_jake_ said:


> Bacteria feed off fish waste and other gunk that is in the substrate/filter/water:2thumb:


What fish waste, it's all being constantly flushed out?


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## Jack0 (Sep 28, 2009)

a sterile environment i not going to be bad for a fish in anyway as long as it is kept constant, you need to make sure that your plan is full proof so the fish doesn't end up sitting in stagnant / ammonia infested water.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd set up some sort of slow drip valve coming off the bottom of the main tank. Set it up so it's losing maybe 4 x tank volume a day. Then all you need to do is set up the feeder tank to slowly pump in the same amount over 24 hours.

Make sure both tanks don't evaporate at different rates.


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## Jack0 (Sep 28, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I'd set up some sort of slow drip valve coming off the bottom of the main tank. Set it up so it's losing maybe 4 x tank volume a day. Then all you need to do is set up the feeder tank to slowly pump in the same amount over 24 hours.
> 
> Make sure both tanks don't evaporate at different rates.


problem with this is if say the drip tap got clogged or something, your gunna end up with a flood or if it dripstoo much youll end up with some dried out fishies.

It say get a float valve, and attatch that to a pump. still with the drip tap or overflow, this way your not having to guess how much water you need to pump in.

ALso the float valve would deal with evaporation aslong as the main tank is always topped up.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's an open system... some shops use an open system...


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

We have a system like this being installed into the tanks where I work. The system is pretty much self sufficient. Except its 21 meters of fish tanks, stack of 4 for each stand with the bottom tank being a sump. UV sterilisers will also be added.


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Lucifus said:


> We have a system like this being installed into the tanks where I work. The system is pretty much self sufficient. Except its 21 meters of fish tanks, stack of 4 for each stand with the bottom tank being a sump. UV sterilisers will also be added.


Yeah adding a UVS was another thing i was considering, and possible an inline heater. no equipment in the tank at all :mf_dribble:


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## beefcake (Nov 17, 2008)

its a good idea the only problems i see from what i once had and run is the plumbing to outside being safe im assuming the tank wold be in your living room or somware... 
if the over flows were to block this could cause big issues.
and also the cost of 24/7 water if your on a meter.
and the inline would be great depending on how long it was on for i could be on all the time as cold water (fresh water) would be coming from the mains from the ro/hma and would be to cold for most fish...
to me inline heater = dept i owe npower £900 for a years worth of 3kw inline heater my fault for not keeping up with the meter readings :mf_dribble:


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## beefcake (Nov 17, 2008)

how did you get on with the system.....


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## The T Lord (Mar 28, 2009)

Nothing has been set up yet.


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