# live plants in ackie viv?



## getdown (Jan 8, 2012)

hello I Am getting a new viv fore my ackie tomorrow and i would like to get some live plants in there.

what type of plants would you use?


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## switchback (Nov 25, 2011)

What substrate are you using and how deep? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and technology


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## Jaymz (Mar 21, 2010)

Personally I would go for plastic/artificial ones. Monitors shred plants like no bodies business :2thumb:

Nice looking Ackie.


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

Jaymz said:


> Personally I would go for plastic/artificial ones. Monitors shred plants like no bodies business :2thumb:


Yep this.


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

Ivy has very tough stems and leaves which can stand up to even a large monitors punishment. You could also use Bermuda grass and just replace when it dies.


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## getdown (Jan 8, 2012)

i am using sand and top soil mix.

I like the idea to grow bermuda grass in the viv.
I was thinking to get succulents in there and keep them in there pots ?

the substrate is going to be about 20 cm deep maybe more at places


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Marwolaeth said:


> Ivy has very tough stems and leaves which can stand up to even a large monitors punishment. You could also use Bermuda grass and just replace when it dies.


Its also poisonous... :whistling2:


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

getdown said:


> i am using sand and top soil mix.
> 
> I like the idea to grow bermuda grass in the viv.
> I was thinking to get succulents in there and keep them in there pots ?
> ...


If the Ackie doesn't kill them then the crickets and locusts will and then in turn when eaten cause even more problems.

Fake is far better and safer.


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Its also poisonous... :whistling2:


English Ivy is.Boston and Algerian Ivy isn't..:whistling2:. (which is lucky as those two do best in terrariums)


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Marwolaeth said:


> English Ivy is.Boston and Algerian Ivy isn't..:whistling2:. (which is lucky as those two do best in terrariums)



How do you tell the difference?


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> How do you tell the difference?


English ivy (the colours can vary but they usually have smaller leave than other Ivy sp)









Boston Ivy









Algerian Ivy


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Marwolaeth said:


> English ivy (the colours can vary but they usually have smaller leave than other Ivy sp)
> image
> 
> Boston Ivy
> ...


Cheers bud :2thumb:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

i think most would get damaged but have a look at the plant here Just Airplants all are reptile safe, some of the larger ones might survive a but longer then the smaller air plants.


Jay


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

I think a monitor lizard would damage any plants you put in as they are very robust and destructive.
I use ferns and “angle wing” plants in my larger corn snake vivs that have bio-substrates.
Below is my Hypo Avalanche in one of the cages.


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

For a live plant to survive constant damage from monitors/crix/locust, it would have to grow very fast indeed. This isn't going to happen in substrate that has no nutritional content (ie, topsoil and sand), or is heated to close to 30C (poor oxygen content and outside of the temperature range that plants can manage to utilise any available nutrients).
Also, the lighting options usually used in a viv are not of the right spectrum to encourage plant growth (even a good quality striplight of the right colour would need to be just inches above the vegetation to do a good job).


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

Stivali said:


> For a live plant to survive constant damage from monitors/crix/locust, it would have to grow very fast indeed. This isn't going to happen in substrate that has no nutritional content (ie, topsoil and sand), or is heated to close to 30C (poor oxygen content and outside of the temperature range that plants can manage to utilise any available nutrients).


Mix in lots of composting leaves and wood into the soil for nutrients and better drainage.Coco fibre is better for the purpose of growing plants than topsoil is because it doesnt clump up so allows the plants roots to spread properly. Stirring the substrate every few days provides oxygen for the beneficial bacteria and fungi.

Simples :2thumb:


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## getdown (Jan 8, 2012)

thank you guys fore the ideas but this have to wait to next month( I bought a nice glass viv today that I was so happy about and had big ideas for. it got damaged on the transport( hope to find a new viv somewhere in the next month again bump:bash:


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

Marwolaeth said:


> Mix in lots of composting leaves and wood into the soil for nutrients and better drainage.Coco fibre is better for the purpose of growing plants than topsoil is because it doesnt clump up so allows the plants roots to spread properly. Stirring the substrate every few days provides oxygen for the beneficial bacteria and fungi.
> 
> Simples :2thumb:


Hah, not as Simples as it sounds! You've tried that have you?:whistling2:


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

I didn't find it difficult to pick up some leaves and wood and mix it with coco fibre and remember to stir it around every few days...


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

Marwolaeth said:


> I didn't find it difficult to pick up some leaves and wood and mix it with coco fibre and remember to stir it around every few days...


But did plants grow?

Leaves take months to break down, and wood actually robs nutrients from the soil whilst breaking down.
If you "stir" the roots to improve oxygen then you are disturbing the roots.
Coco, leaves and wood wouldn't even allow plants to grow in a garden..

And lighting of the correct spectrum?

Not saying it can't be done - but the average well set up monitor viv is a very poorly set up for plant growth..


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## Marwolaeth (Oct 29, 2012)

Stivali said:


> But did plants grow?
> I got ivy and Ficus benjamina to grow.
> Leaves take months to break down, and wood actually robs nutrients from the soil whilst breaking down.Slow decomposition is what you want.The slow rotting leaves gives the plants a sustainable source of nutrients and a long term home for the bacteria and fungi instead of sudden unsustainable growth that would quickly result in barren terrarium.
> 
> ...


 It may be a slightly different for monitors than it is for temperate herps but the principles will be the same.


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

Marwolaeth said:


> It may be a slightly different for monitors than it is for temperate herps but the principles will be the same.


There's the catch right there - I've got planted gecko vivs, it's nice and easy - but monitor vivs are a completely different ballgame! Your substrate temp isn't close to 30C, and you don't have a 55C basking spot in your viv


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Just get low light plants and it wont be an issue. I normally wouldve agreed with you, but Im putting plants in mine as we speak. There is a member on another forum who has grass growing like crazy in their bosc enclosure, so it most definitely can be done!

Its all about placement. You need to make sure that the roots arent going to be dug up right away, so placing them in such a way to help that is key. You can even mount them in pots to the side if you want. I would recommend pothos and mother in laws tongue to start with. Both are hearty plants that dont require much light. Also could use draecinia, but as they have a thick trunk it might be more inclined to climb those and strip off the leaves. They are nearly impossible to kill those plants though, so its worth a shot. Also, you can try growing grass. The lights arent that hard to get right, its just a matter of getting some blue/red spectrum grow lights, which arent really that hard to find or expensive. I say anything to make it more natural is a bonus. 

The best mix of soil is topsoil, sphagnum moss, tree fern, sand, and a bit of activated charcoal. Leave a couple inches of gravel at the bottom for drainage too. That mix will give the plants all they need for nutrients. Then buy a bunch of African nightcrawlers, isopods, springtails, etc and put them in the soil. Then cover the soil with leaf litter. This will keep your soil healthy and aerated and also help breakdown the monitors wastes, not to mention give your monitor something to dig around for as tasty nutritious treats!


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

It's easy to grow plants, monitor enclosure or not, not sure why people are moaning. You just need to provide the correct lighting. Though the issue of trampling is still there. 

Sort out the lighting and any plant will grow. Just provide a strip grow bulb in addition to any other lighting you have. 

jay


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

jarich said:


> Just get low light plants and it wont be an issue. I normally wouldve agreed with you, but Im putting plants in mine as we speak. There is a member on another forum who has grass growing like crazy in their bosc enclosure, so it most definitely can be done!
> 
> Its all about placement. You need to make sure that the roots arent going to be dug up right away, so placing them in such a way to help that is key. You can even mount them in pots to the side if you want. I would recommend pothos and mother in laws tongue to start with. Both are hearty plants that dont require much light. Also could use draecinia, but as they have a thick trunk it might be more inclined to climb those and strip off the leaves. They are nearly impossible to kill those plants though, so its worth a shot. Also, you can try growing grass. The lights arent that hard to get right, its just a matter of getting some blue/red spectrum grow lights, which arent really that hard to find or expensive. I say anything to make it more natural is a bonus.
> 
> The best mix of soil is topsoil, sphagnum moss, tree fern, sand, and a bit of activated charcoal. Leave a couple inches of gravel at the bottom for drainage too. That mix will give the plants all they need for nutrients. Then buy a bunch of African nightcrawlers, isopods, springtails, etc and put them in the soil. Then cover the soil with leaf litter. This will keep your soil healthy and aerated and also help breakdown the monitors wastes, not to mention give your monitor something to dig around for as tasty nutritious treats!


 Show us the pics when it's grown in well


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Just thought I would show you guys what I was talking about before. Again, this is not my enclosure, but a guy that I know on another forum. Notice the way he placed logs to protect root structure, etc. Its probably the best example of plant growth Ive ever seen in a monitor enclosure. Its what made me do an about face change in my opinion of live plants with monitors as its hard to argue with how well its working in real life. As you can see, not only is the grass growing, but it is thriving in there. He started it from seed, and this is all growth that happened while the monitor was already in the enclosure.


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## getdown (Jan 8, 2012)

that viv is very cool one lucky bosc.
I have lots of lighting in my viv I use metal halide spot that replicates the sun light . plus I have two daylight tubes and compact florescent bulbs.
Lots of light is not only beneficial to the plants.
I am gonna try to grow grass plus some succulents in there. 
I am going to plant them in pots and not directly on the substrate.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

getdown said:


> that viv is very cool one lucky bosc.
> I have lots of lighting in my viv I use metal halide spot that replicates the sun light . plus I have two daylight tubes and compact florescent bulbs.
> Lots of light is not only beneficial to the plants.
> I am gonna try to grow grass plus some succulents in there.
> I am going to plant them in pots and not directly on the substrate.


Just as a point, UV and metal halide lights do not, well the ones i know of anyway, produce light at the correct spectrum for plant growth. Though low level light plants would be OK. Plants like inch plant, pothos and heat leafed climber like low light conditions, are hardy, large and will take abuse from the monitor. 

Jay


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

jarich said:


> Just thought I would show you guys what I was talking about before. Again, this is not my enclosure, but a guy that I know on another forum. Notice the way he placed logs to protect root structure, etc. Its probably the best example of plant growth Ive ever seen in a monitor enclosure. Its what made me do an about face change in my opinion of live plants with monitors as its hard to argue with how well its working in real life. As you can see, not only is the grass growing, but it is thriving in there. He started it from seed, and this is all growth that happened while the monitor was already in the enclosure.
> 
> image
> image
> image


 I'm very curious to know the temperature of the substrate in that setup..


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

Stivali said:


> I'm very curious to know the temperature of the substrate in that setup..


Looks quite cool with just some small spots so far up one end?


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

Stivali said:


> I'm very curious to know the temperature of the substrate in that setup..


 
75f - 85f i asked : victory:


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## varanus87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Whosthedaddy said:


> Looks quite cool with just some small spots so far up one end?


Indeed this is wot I was thinking maybe he has heated floors ....:whistling2: or more lighting down the other end or something ...

Also how deep is the substrate I wonder ? :victory:


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

varanus87 said:


> Indeed this is wot I was thinking maybe he has heated floors ....:whistling2: or more lighting down the other end or something ...
> 
> Also how deep is the substrate I wonder ? :victory:


 
Depending on how well a viv is insulated you can indeed heat it with a few spot bulbs :2thumb:


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

varanus87 said:


> Indeed this is wot I was thinking maybe he has heated floors ....:whistling2: or more lighting down the other end or something ...
> 
> Also how deep is the substrate I wonder ? :victory:


That's why I ask, none of those plants will like a soil temp in excess of 24C, and the substrate doesn't look like the monitor has been digging (which they won't in cool substrate I find) - so I wonder if it is correctly set up for the monitor or the plants? I'm not sure I'd want a gravid female in there!
Also doesn't seem to be any insects in there..


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

Spikebrit said:


> Just as a point, UV and metal halide lights do not, well the ones i know of anyway, produce light at the correct spectrum for plant growth. Though low level light plants would be OK. Plants like inch plant, pothos and heat leafed climber like low light conditions, are hardy, large and will take abuse from the monitor.
> 
> Jay


 Actually MH lighting is very good for vegetative growth, it is used to grow vegetables/fruit commercially, but it produces a lot of heat.


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## varanus87 (Jan 30, 2012)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Depending on how well a viv is insulated you can indeed heat it with a few spot bulbs :2thumb:


Can't really see if it is well insulated at all from the pics looks almost open aired ?? ... But ill take ur word for it ...: victory:


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

varanus87 said:


> Can't really see if it is well insulated at all from the pics looks almost open aired ?? ... But ill take ur word for it ...: victory:


 Open air is my guess too - 2 80W spots would make the one end a reasonable temp (and give good basking), but for the plants to have decent lighting and still not get too hot to grow would take a LACK of insulation I would think..


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## varanus87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Stivali said:


> Open air is my guess too - 2 80W spots would make the one end a reasonable temp (and give good basking), but for the plants to have decent lighting and still not get too hot to grow would take a LACK of insulation I would think..


I concur ... I am very intrigued by it all ... Wud love to see the details on substrate temp and setup ...:2thumb:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Stivali said:


> Actually MH lighting is very good for vegetative growth, it is used to grow vegetables/fruit commercially, but it produces a lot of heat.


You get the high intense MH lights used for the growth of some plants. But most for use in the reptile world (lower watts), that i've trialled anyway, just don't give out that spectrum. The main barrier though is that in a confined space you just end up burning the leaves/plant as, as you noted the temps prodiced are massive unless you have industrial ventilation. The other issue is the area of usbale light. Due to the close confines the area of usable light, even with reflectors, is surprisingly small. 

The best plant bulbs for use in a viv are the tubes. as these provide light along the whole viv, are a low wattage, and produce minimal heat. I use them in most of my vivs here for planted set-ups and after trailling loads of bulbs these a the best for plant growth. if you pair it up with a uv tube as well, you are well away. 

Jay


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

Spikebrit said:


> You get the high intense MH lights used for the growth of some plants. But most for use in the reptile world (lower watts), that i've trialled anyway, just don't give out that spectrum. The main barrier though is that in a confined space you just end up burning the leaves/plant as, as you noted the temps prodiced are massive unless you have industrial ventilation. The other issue is the area of usbale light. Due to the close confines the area of usable light, even with reflectors, is surprisingly small.
> 
> The best plant bulbs for use in a viv are the tubes. as these provide light along the whole viv, are a low wattage, and produce minimal heat. I use them in most of my vivs here for planted set-ups and after trailling loads of bulbs these a the best for plant growth. if you pair it up with a uv tube as well, you are well away.
> 
> Jay


Yeah - the problem with tubes is that they can only provide adequate lighting when inches from the plant - so unless you have a very shallow viv your not going to see fast plant growth. THese too are used for commercial plant growing (typically for younger plants that don't need to grow fast), usually hung less than 6 inches from the plant canopy. One tube at the front of a viv wouldn't cut it..

Uv isn't required for plant growth. (but may or may not be beneficial for the monitors - huh Shane?:lol2

Red/blue LED's of the correct wavelength would be the best way to grow healthy plants without the assosiated heat of HID lighting, but we're a way off having useful products available too us yet..


EDITED TO ADD - MH lighting should ALL put out the correct spectrum, the colour achieved is a result of the chemistry in the bulb - but as you say, low power lights don't have the penetration or spread to promote strong growth over a large area..


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Stivali said:


> Yeah - the problem with tubes is that they can only provide adequate lighting when inches from the plant - so unless you have a very shallow viv your not going to see fast plant growth. THese too are used for commercial plant growing (typically for younger plants that don't need to grow fast), usually hung less than 6 inches from the plant canopy. One tube at the front of a viv wouldn't cut it..
> 
> Uv isn't required for plant growth. (but may or may not be beneficial for the monitors - huh Shane?:lol2
> 
> ...


My tubes are all hung at abut 12-18 inchs away and still provide adaquate plant growth. I've tested a range of T5 tubes with reflectors and growth even at 2 foot is good. A lot of my tanks are over 2 foot high and plants at ground level still grow strong. The older style T8 tubes were indeed not as good and did indeed have to be very close for good growth but even these are better now and provide growth at about 12 inches if you have a good bulb. I would recomend a good T5 plant growth tube, and you will see plant growth easily at 12-24 inches

I've also tested the LEDS and some of them are amazing. The top end ones which sit at about £500 per pannel are really really good. The cheaper Chinese ones are a waste of money. I've played around with some of the LED spots used in fish lighting too and they are ok but the beam area of useful light is poor. But tbh unless you have a massive budget LED's arnt worth it. 

Tubes at 2 foot ish (prob a bit more) above substrate 



















At 13 inches from substrate to bulb











Jay


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

Spikebrit said:


> My tubes are all hung at abut 12-18 inchs away and still provide adaquate plant growth. I've tested a range of T5 tubes with reflectors and growth even at 2 foot is good. A lot of my tanks are over 2 foot high and plants at ground level still grow strong. The older style T8 tubes were indeed not as good and did indeed have to be very close for good growth but even these are better now and provide growth at about 12 inches if you have a good bulb. I would recomend a good T5 plant growth tube, and you will see plant growth easily at 12-24 inches
> 
> I've also tested the LEDS and some of them are amazing. The top end ones which sit at about £500 per pannel are really really good. The cheaper Chinese ones are a waste of money. I've played around with some of the LED spots used in fish lighting too and they are ok but the beam area of useful light is poor. But tbh unless you have a massive budget LED's arnt worth it.
> 
> ...


Yes - all true in my experience too - except that at 24 inches you don't get GOOD growth - you get to keep a plant alive at best. A decent monitor viv might need 3-4 foot of penetration however (certainly mine do) PLUS the vivs are several feet wide, so several strips would be required to light the whole area. Four 60w tubes adding another 240w of heat into the viv (on top of a couple of 80w spotlights) and you begin to need ventilation - which is the LAST thing you want in a monitor viv..
I use T5's in many of my vivs, and have excellent plant growth in small (24" tall) gecko vivs that are kept at a slightly lower temperature and have nice cool soil - in fact I regularly have to prune foliage back to stop it overgrowing.
The pics above look great - but they are not monitor vivs and they don't look to be supporting what I would call FAST plant growth (which is required when the plants are to survive constant damage from monitors and insects). 

LED's will come - the tech is very close and manufacturing is catching up.
They are worth a big outlay long term - they will easily save money thanks to much longer lifespan and lower energy demands. Then of course there is the issue of disposal/environment with tubes..



Edited to add - in your pic you say tube is 2 foot above substrate - but the plants are mostly NOT planted in the substrate and are growing what looks to be a foot or less below the tube:whistling2:


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

People over here have a tendency to keep their houses a little warmer than over your way, so thats not as much of an issue. This guy lives down south too, so it doesnt get as cold. The grass seed is specific for a high heat environment, as the surface is warmer of course. I think he said the substrate was in the high 70s at depth, but Ill ask to make sure. Yes, there are burrows and the monitor does burrow regularly. It is in fact a female in that picture.

As for the lights being enough for the plants, well I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak...

It seems like you might be trying to find reasons to say it doesnt work, yet I find most of the time that the argument is made by people who simply havent tried that hard to make it work. If youre convinced something cant possibly work, then you are going to be right :lol2:


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## Whosthedaddy (Nov 29, 2009)

I used turf before in my Bosc Viv. Didn't last at all due to high heat and high humidity.



jarich said:


> People over here have a tendency to keep their houses a little warmer than over your way, so thats not as much of an issue. This guy lives down south too, so it doesnt get as cold. The grass seed is specific for a high heat environment, as the surface is warmer of course. I think he said the substrate was in the high 70s at depth, but Ill ask to make sure. Yes, there are burrows and the monitor does burrow regularly. It is in fact a female in that picture.
> 
> As for the lights being enough for the plants, well I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak...
> 
> It seems like you might be trying to find reasons to say it doesnt work, yet I find most of the time that the argument is made by people who simply havent tried that hard to make it work. If youre convinced something cant possibly work, then you are going to be right :lol2:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Stivali said:


> Yes - all true in my experience too - except that at 24 inches you don't get GOOD growth - you get to keep a plant alive at best. A decent monitor viv might need 3-4 foot of penetration however (certainly mine do) PLUS the vivs are several feet wide, so several strips would be required to light the whole area. Four 60w tubes adding another 240w of heat into the viv (on top of a couple of 80w spotlights) and you begin to need ventilation - which is the LAST thing you want in a monitor viv..
> I use T5's in many of my vivs, and have excellent plant growth in small (24" tall) gecko vivs that are kept at a slightly lower temperature and have nice cool soil - in fact I regularly have to prune foliage back to stop it overgrowing.
> The pics above look great - but they are not monitor vivs and they don't look to be supporting what I would call FAST plant growth (which is required when the plants are to survive constant damage from monitors and insects).
> 
> ...


In regard to your edit i suppose main planting is mid way, but there are ferns mosses and crypts on the substrate which grow well. place lighting mid way down the back of the wall may solve you problem though with a monitor its going to get trashed

It was more about showing it was possibale rather then practical. Personally i would only use a few low light plants such as pothos, heart leafed climber, and possiable a few other tillies, would work well with a bulb a few feet away. However whether or not they would tolerate the abuse is a unlikly.

The plants used in the tanks, apart from the ficus, are specifically chosen to be slow growing as i dont want to constantly cut them back. But if you chose things like inch plant, ficus, pothos etc you will be over run. I cut back my ficus every 4-6 months. In the tanks with inch plant i have to do it ever 2-3 moths. 

If you were using lots of tubes you would have to balance out temps, but no more then in other tanks, balance out the heat and ventilation. 

my post was more about showing it was possibale, not whether or not it was practical. It would all depend on the monitor you have, the tank size, current heating etc etc. Its not always possiable in all tanks, but thats not to say it's not impossible. 

It's going to be a few years before LED grow lights are affordable for most keepers at the moment it's just not. But from the information i've got a couple of years and the price may start to fall dramatically. 

Jay


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

See, thats exactly what I mean. You tried with one type of grass. All that means is that you used the wrong kind of grass, not that it cant work in a monitor enclosure. There are plenty of grass species available that grow well in hot, humid environments.


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## varanus87 (Jan 30, 2012)

jarich said:


> People over here have a tendency to keep their houses a little warmer than over your way, so thats not as much of an issue. This guy lives down south too, so it doesnt get as cold. The grass seed is specific for a high heat environment, as the surface is warmer of course. I think he said the substrate was in the high 70s at depth, but Ill ask to make sure. Yes, there are burrows and the monitor does burrow regularly. It is in fact a female in that picture.
> 
> As for the lights being enough for the plants, well I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak...
> 
> It seems like you might be trying to find reasons to say it doesnt work, yet I find most of the time that the argument is made by people who simply havent tried that hard to make it work. If youre convinced something cant possibly work, then you are going to be right :lol2:


I'm simply asking questions as I've never tried to grow plants and just asking about the setup ....:whistling2: I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong ...


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

varanus87 said:


> I'm simply asking questions as I've never tried to grow plants and just asking about the setup ....:whistling2: I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong ...


No, wasnt referring to you mate. Sorry, it wasnt my intention to stifle any conversation at all, either way. Ive been guilty of the whole "no way can monitor enclosures have plants" thing too, but then I never tried very hard either. This guy has made it really work well and Ive seen a couple other enclosures where it seems to work well too. I posted his as its the best example Ive seen, but there are others. 

Since the other conditions inside a monitor enclosure are very natural, it seems like this shouldnt be that hard to do. I mean its a warm, humid, bright environment with lots of dirt. Monitors dig a lot yes, but it seems that there are ways to adapt the enclosure to meet the needs of both fairly easily. And I think the benefit to the bioactivity of the enclosure has got to be a good thing, especially the air quality, as we have to seal these things up so well.


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

jarich said:


> People over here have a tendency to keep their houses a little warmer than over your way, so thats not as much of an issue. This guy lives down south too, so it doesnt get as cold. The grass seed is specific for a high heat environment, as the surface is warmer of course. I think he said the substrate was in the high 70s at depth, but Ill ask to make sure. Yes, there are burrows and the monitor does burrow regularly. It is in fact a female in that picture.
> 
> As for the lights being enough for the plants, well I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak...
> 
> It seems like you might be trying to find reasons to say it doesnt work, yet I find most of the time that the argument is made by people who simply havent tried that hard to make it work. If youre convinced something cant possibly work, then you are going to be right :lol2:


 Quite the opposite Jarich - I want to make it work - but know how wrong the conditions are. I intended to grow more than a bit of grass and know a bit about the difficulties. I'm just trying to be practical rather than say "hey, growing plants is easy"..

THat soil temp is fairly low for a monitor viv - much of mine is heated to 85F+ (to encourage nesting), which makes a HUGE difference to oxygen content. Water loses the ability to hold a lot of oxygen around 75F.

The difficulties I mention (monitors disturbing things, lighting, high soil temp, insects eating everything) are the reason why that's one of the ONLY monitor vivs I've seen with live plants growing long term (assuming it is long term). I for instance tried 5 types of grass - all grew well but was all mown down by insects within days. A grape vine cultivar especially bred for warmer climes lasted a couple of weeks before the roots went stale. Monster plant (large established) was broken to pieces in 2 days..


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

What kind of monitor do you have Stivali? That's a very warm temperature for the coolest part of your enclosure. What are your ambient temps at to give you an 85+ F substrate temp at depth? Is that constant or is there a cooling period at night. What bugs do you have that are mowing down your grass? 

I appreciate your attempts with different plants, and your obvious knowledge in doing so. What type of soils/substrate are you using?


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## getdown (Jan 8, 2012)

hello guys very cool that you share personal experiences and problems whit planting an ackie viv. Iam going to try putting in some sort of light that is in the right spectrum for the grass. There is many sorts of grasses that do not ned that much light and I would like some sort that grove in balls that have some height,I think this is more natural for ackies. I tong feed my ackie so I dont think insects gonna be a problem.what type of soil should I use?

I im gonna order a new glass terrarium its 150 70 70 I can chose what sort of ventilation how much space fore substrate ect, maybe It could be built in some way that can benefit the grass and my ackie? how much ventilation should i get? 

sorry if me english is not the best

peace


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## Jaymz (Mar 21, 2010)

Jaymz said:


> Personally I would go for plastic/artificial ones. Monitors shred plants like no bodies business :2thumb:
> 
> Nice looking Ackie.





jarich said:


> Just thought I would show you guys what I was talking about before. Again, this is not my enclosure, but a guy that I know on another forum. Notice the way he placed logs to protect root structure, etc. Its probably the best example of plant growth Ive ever seen in a monitor enclosure. Its what made me do an about face change in my opinion of live plants with monitors as its hard to argue with how well its working in real life. As you can see, not only is the grass growing, but it is thriving in there. He started it from seed, and this is all growth that happened while the monitor was already in the enclosure.
> 
> image
> image
> image



I stand corrected :2thumb:

Nice thread :2thumb:


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## philipniceguy (Mar 31, 2008)

Marwolaeth said:


> English ivy (the colours can vary but they usually have smaller leave than other Ivy sp)
> image
> 
> Boston Ivy
> ...


interesting to know i like the look of boston ivy, in my vivs not likely but i know a chap who might whos commented and studied it lot who hopefully WILL make it work (in uk monitor vivs LOL)



jarich said:


> Just thought I would show you guys what I was talking about before. Again, this is not my enclosure, but a guy that I know on another forum. Notice the way he placed logs to protect root structure, etc. Its probably the best example of plant growth Ive ever seen in a monitor enclosure. Its what made me do an about face change in my opinion of live plants with monitors as its hard to argue with how well its working in real life. As you can see, not only is the grass growing, but it is thriving in there. He started it from seed, and this is all growth that happened while the monitor was already in the enclosure.
> 
> image
> image
> image


very nice looking setup but seeing a few boscs kept well they borrow alot yet see little evidence of it with that grass which is interesting but sure as hell looks a nice viv


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## Stivali (Apr 9, 2012)

jarich said:


> What kind of monitor do you have Stivali? That's a very warm temperature for the coolest part of your enclosure. What are your ambient temps at to give you an 85+ F substrate temp at depth? Is that constant or is there a cooling period at night. What bugs do you have that are mowing down your grass?
> 
> I appreciate your attempts with different plants, and your obvious knowledge in doing so. What type of soils/substrate are you using?


I keep Ackie's, Gilleni, Auffenbergi, Beccarii, and Glauerti.
I'm more comfortable talking in Centigrade, ambient temps around the 29-31C. Cool end a fraction lower, basking spot at 55C, and more than half substrate heated to 30C. I find almost none of the monitors will actively dig and burrow in cooler substrate, and ALL choose to lay eggs at 30C (for that reason, substrate is heated 24/7). Having warm substrate is a key element to maintaining a high humidity in a monitor viv IMO.

Crickets and roaches are the biggest plant eaters in the vivs, though there are several other insects around and about. Locust are the worst of course, even thought hey don't hand around in a monitors viv for long before getting eaten! They commonly bite into the base of a leaf/stalk and kill more plant than they actually consume.
Substrate is a mix of my own garden soil, coir and sand. I collect leaf litter regularly for most of the vivs, and most of my vivs are larger than the average (ie, my ackie's viv is nearly 8x3x3 - similar size to the bosc viv shown above) - so there is a greater substrate/viv size ratio than "normal" - yet still the ackies dig so many burrows that the surface is littered with holes or mounds of fresh dug soil burrying everthing nearby.

All of the setups so far have been "tuned" for the monitors optimum conditions rather than plants conditions.


I have been testing LEDS for a while now, and have found I can get moderate growth and healthy plants from the Cree range of cool white LED's, and slightly better growth from some 3w red/bue LED's (450NM and 690NM) mouinted at the same distance from the plants as they would be in my young Beccari viv.
However, if after a few weeks of growth I place the healthy plant (in a pot, OR planted in substrate) in the cooler end of the viv, it starts to suffer very soon. First off nutrient deficiencies show up - magnesium being the worst I suspect (leaves go pale lime green, especially around the "veins" - this is because roots have a narrow temp range that they can take up nutrients effectivly - and struggle even more if oxygen is low). Different plants have different capabilities when it comes to using nutrients, and grass is one of the most forgiving (hence being able to survive in so many places where little else will grow).
Next the insects start to take their toll, and a handfull of crickets quickly breed when fed fresh greens and overwhelm the now sickly plant, or mow down young grass shoots before they are even fully rooted (again, eating from the base up).

I do have plans for a fully planted and extremely large enclosure, and will try every trick I can think of to satisfy needs of both monitors and plants - but the enclosure will be for tree monitors, which I would say are one of the easier spcs to match conditions for, and I will be able to keep seperate area's for rooting plants and nesting monitors. However few people will have a viv large enough to be able to reach such a "compromise" - and even so I don't think it's going to be easy at all to reach a balance.

I've been a keen horticulturist for as long as I've been keeping monitors, and grow a great deal of fruit under glass (or plastic) in my garden every year with moderate success, yet find growing live plants in a monitor viv (especially an ackie's viv) to be one hell of a challange!


Hope that all makes sense - that was a lot of info to try and write down!

Steve


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