# A little advice please



## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Hi guys am hoping for a little advice.

Does anyone setup there vivs using false plants etc rather than trying to create a eco system? I've seen the builds of eco systems there's some very talented people on here. 

Maintaing the correct temps how are you achieving this if your room isn't a constant 70f-80f? 

Looking at drainage how often do you drain the vivs if you have a eco system? Same question also without the eco system?

Just looking for pros and cons at this stage. 
Thanks in advance.


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## Ruairidh (Nov 15, 2015)

Yes I used to use false plants etc, much easier and less expensive than plants as you need the correct lights, humidity, etc. For temps a heatmat or a ceramic bulb running on a thermostat set at a certain temperature will keep the temps exact (bare in mind the heatmat only heats the surface, it does nothing for heating the air in the viv) drainage would depend on what animal you keep, if it's a non eco setup you wouldn't need to drain it if it isn't an aquatic animal as there wouldn't be water to drain therefore you would only need to clean it out every month and doing spot cleans every day or so. With an eco setup if the water was stagnant then if it becomes murky then you can siphon it off and replace it with fresh water. Hope this helped 

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank-you helped a lot

Sorry I should of said it will be for pdf. I'm still undecided on which but will be d.arutus blue, Leucs, or possibly a tinc. I've done loads of research over the last 12 months plus so wouldn't be disappointed with any. 

I have very little interest in plants and about green fingered as roundup. so I want to use false plants. I want to create a false bottom so it can be drained. I was thinking hydroballs, egg crate, some sort of sphagnum moss&coconut fibre then ontop orkid bark and leaves. Would this work as a false bottom? Or am causing more hassle and would still need cleaning each month. 

One other question reference heat how important is the nighttime drop? I'm planning of low to mid 70's would this cause an issue if constant?


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hi!

I can only tell you what I have done, it works for me but other I am sure will do it different.

I have a live planted system. Like you I wasn't really interested in that element to start with but I have really taken pride in it and now my plants are almost as important as my frogs. 

I use a lowish wattage ceramic heater to keep my temps up as my house prone to be quite chilly. During the summer as the bulb is on a thermostat it didn't really kick in much I had to drain the water off maybe twice in 5 months ( I have a 2" layer of leca by the way). Since the colder weather I haven't had to drain at all. I have two theories for this. One is the fact the bulb is running more and therefore evaporating more water, and two, my plants have established better so use more water than when they were smaller. I have a mistking that mists 4 times a day which allows my broms to dry out so they are not constantly filled with water.

Using live plants also helps the whole system run with sprintails, white worms and woodlice so it's pretty much self sustaining. Any dead plants or shedded leaves add to the system. Plants also help maintain the humidity

I would imagine with fake plants you would possibly need to mist and drain more, although I stand to be corrected. 

For me bio is well worth the effort and if you are patient a small amount of plants does cover a lot. Creeping plants obviously creep and cover more area as they expand and my broms are sending off new pups. I am getting to the stage I may need to have a hack out to prevent there being too much going on.

Hope any of this ramble helps,

Marc.


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Hi Marc thanks for the reply I really appreciate it. creating an eco system is something I may consider further down the line they are very impressive. 
I am pretty set on what I want to achieve at the moment. 
Just need help with my last post to iron out a few issues.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok lets start from the top.
Get live plants as the frogs will do better with them.
If you don`t go over the top with your spraying the plants will use up lots of the water for themselves.
This will mean that you probably won`t have to drain water from your viv.
I have just set up some new vivs and have not put drains on them.
All my older vivs have drains and many of them run dry as there is not enough water to fill the gully`s.
So I in fact have to pour water into the gully`s so my frogs can have a soak.
For lighting use jungle dawns.
They run at 50C and if you have them mounted just above the glass on top of the viv they will radiate heat into the viv, fact.
My 2 new vivs are sitting beside the front door of my house and the temp in the centre of them is 23C, these vivs are 100cm tall.
Night time temps can go as low as 16C without causing any issues.
I know you want plastic plants but apart from the fact they mostly look fake and detract from the look of the viv live plants will also help to keep humidity up.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Cool post Marc:2thumb:
cool post Mike:2thumb:
Mike me old mucker see we don't always disagree LMAO:lol2:

Another vote to try and convince you to go live plants Mr Gecko:welcome: beyond what the guys have said do remember plants are part of the nitrogen cycle so after the clean up crew have broken down the froggy waste is is being used up by the plants.
Second as Mike mentioned plants use water I see what he does having to fill the ditch rather than worry about emptying as a viv matures,but there is another important factor a live plant gives you,they take up water sure,but they also transpire it,so by definition a given viv will have higher humidity with real plants,rather than fake.

High humidity is pretty important to darts mate not a sopping wet viv ,but almost a dry viv with very high humidity. Lack of this will effect behaviour mate, some dart frogs actually estivate through dry periods in the wild,so if the viv humidity isn't high enough one might expect to see froggies much less,a shame with a stunning diurnal group.

Re subs have a look at the ent style false floor viv ,so many of us use.
Re heat, mate running a room I heat that,a good ol' oil rad is brill for this,but might not be of use to you personally.

Mate plants are not tricky ok certainly some can be,but many are not, once you get some happy you'll actually be spending time cutting back. 

We all have differing ideas mate all do this in differing ways,but if I asked you this simple question...why are almost all darts kept in planted tanks ? 

Mate can you give me any reason an artificial plant might benefit your frogs,not you but the frogs? 

I realise you have a game plan buddy,it's cool Im not knocking you but should our ethos be to do what is easier for us or one of what can I do to give my froggies the best I can? If the former is right grab the plastique if the latter is your bag ya want some real un's

There is an error here false plants are utterly not cheeper than live,they might be first up but the big scheme is a live thing can be bred a plastic not so much. Sure I grow a few plants always have(grow lots of food for me too),but it does need saying that one can buy a stock plant take cuttings and make many,my overal plant cost for somewhere around 14 vivs will be less than nothing sure time and effort are players but darts require effort in culturing feeders so why not knock out a few plants too. The thing is if you bought the odd plant now and worked out how to grow and make more you will find a market for an organic froggy safe plant and when you bang it in viv you will know what it needs. That one can also buy the next. 

I appreciate you aren't interested so much in plants I get it maybe the big picture of why we do this so called ecosystem thang has thus far eluded your research,dig deeper bro there is wisdom here,beyond my feeble reckoning

Good luck kiddo get the culturing down early see if you really want this before frogs no pressure in a failed culture with nowt to feed get some iso as a start they are slow take time follow with springs and ff nail all before frogs

take care

Stu


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Cheers guys appreciate the replies. 

I am guessing you are all pro live plants lol. 
I'm going to look into plants abit more would be ignorant not to after the replies received. 
Funny story I am not lieing when I say I am not green fingered. Mrs sent me out to do some weeding a few years back. what I thought were weeds were actually plants. I have never been asked again lol. 

I am really going to struggle with plants certainly at this point have no interest in growing any. What would you recommend that's readily available and easy to look after that I could look at incorporating. Please don't misunderstand my reply with laziness I just really have no interest in plants. 

I have seen plenty of setups with no eco system. Would you go as far to say these setups are incorrect and the animals are suffering?
I just want to understand the seriousness of the choices I am going to be making. I have seen plenty of debates through the reptile world viv v rub being the main one. The reason for my question. I am also not sitting here with the popcorn trying to cause an argument.

Thanks


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

I had no interest in plants before getting addicted to dart frogs, i killed all types, i still have issues, but that happens. Plastic plants will no doubt require you sticking your mitts in the tank and cleaning them etc, which will do the frogs no good tbh.

trust me, theres some real easy plants ive come to use over the last two years and even i cant kill em, im a practical over pretty kind of guy, with the odd experiment.


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

They sound like the plants I need lol. What are they please will go and have a read up.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Muelenbeckia Complexa is ace and grows well,
pilea glauca does great and spreads well
ficus does great, looks pretty and gets great coverage.
Spotted pictus is also a great vine.

Aluminium plants do well and everyone loves fittonia


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank-you


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Gecko1977 said:


> Mrs sent me out to do some weeding a few years back. what I thought were weeds were actually plants. I have never been asked again lol.


Don`t come at us with that lame excuse.
You knew very well what were plants and what were weeds.
You just wanted a way out lmao.

On a more serious note though.
You`ll enjoy your frogs a lot more if you get live plants as they`ll be a lot happier.
You don`t need green fingers and because you`ll only be looking after 2 or 3 plants you`ll get to know them and know what you need to do for them.
There`s plenty of us on here to help you out and make sure you don`t kill them.
I`d say to get yourself a mini oak leaf ficus. I like this plant because once it gets a hold it grows up the glass and just covers everything if you let it.
But one thing I do like is that it makes a good ground covering plant as I have it in a few vivs where it just grows like a carpet.
A nice climber too which will grow up the back of the viv and give the frogs some cover to hide behind if they need to.
Some plants from Dartfrogs list which could get you started.
_Cissus discolour _
_Episcia dianthiflora _
_Marcgravia _species 
_Peperomia rotundifolia _
_Philodendron laciniatum. _
Tiger Begonia _Begonia bowerae_
Creeping Begonia _Begonia schultzi_
The above are only a few plants he has for sale but any of these would get you started.


Mike


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Haha thanks Mike.
Going to have a couple of days reading about plants now and seeing what I can incorporate in. Make some adjustments to my plans.


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Getting there with the plants guys so thanks. 

However I have confused myself a little with forgers and misters. I plan to use bottled water unless I'm advised otherwise. I am led to believe using a fogger will give the water equivalent to ro or distilled. This will be better for the plants as it removes minerals and salts. 

Do you guys use foggers and misters or just use foggers and hand misters?

Also can you confirm what water you are using please. 

Hope that sort of makes sense.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Gecko1977 said:


> Cheers guys appreciate the replies.
> 
> I am guessing you are all pro live plants lol.
> I'm going to look into plants abit more would be ignorant not to after the replies received.
> ...


Bro you are asking questions trying to learn for the frog ya wanna keep,there is no way I feel you are being lazy utter respect dude good onya.

This is web land I'm i'm an idiot with words sure I bunged some difficult questions at ya mate(what's ya name kiddo) but not in any way with malice or wanting you to feel I was having a pop ha we are passionate bro but we don't fight much,life is too short . If my tired post caused an offence have a complete apology on me buddy.

Mate I simply try to do my best for my animals with my lass it has to be said. I feel the closer we can get our care to the wild environment the whole shebang mate the happier that animal might be. But reality check huh I wanna put a rainforest in a small glass box !

I wouldn't go so far as to say plastique plants are gonna cause suffering that's not what i'm trying to get over I think your frogs will have a better quality of life with real ones. That also applies to the ecosystem completed withing viv by the live plants in one of these bioactive set ups That is why I'm writing mate I don't have time but I adore these little frogs,they pick me up when i'm down amaze me I write with passion 'cause I want that for you and your kids(frogs man ). If you get a good start with the obvious other keepers points of view,don't just listen to me mate I'm nobody learn from all of 'em steal the best bits:lol2: then we get another keeper to have a crack with and you get going without hardship for me it's important your frogs do well. Simply put I go back to earlier in this post the closer we get to replicating nature the higher the quality of care provided. Frogs are relatively simple life forms the barometers of an environment,the first to loose numbers when something is out of kilter,so getting a base home right is important as they are sensitive,it's more important i think than say a rep,more leeway for error possible? I don't know bro I don't keep snakes. Keeping an animal is incremental mate the more ya give the more ya get back too much grey for right and wrong,dart guys have many successful methods ,but hey look at us in the 80's no one even knew how oophaga repoduced now if done well they are relatively straightforward to breed,but ya gotta get the base right. I think the choices you are making are serious buddy wouldn't spend this much time otherwise. 

Buddy a weed is simply the wrong plant growing in the wrong place it's just us being picky dude it can apply to any plant folks don't care for dandelions in their lawn I like 'em, love watching the goldies feed on the clocks it's all eye of the beholder stuff,but all credit mate,better someone else does the weeding: victory: I don't want to either,lmao 

Mate I know these pro plant guys that have posted here no one is having a go at ya bro all of us just want to give ya a good start tis all, there are bloody easy plants but they are not necessarily the best 'cause they grow too damn fast,if the lads don't get to you first I'll come back with something.but gotta go buddy no time

good luck

Stu


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Names Lee guys. 

Cheers Stu

I have been reading alot since I started this thread and I am 100% in agreement creating the eco system is important and my original plan as been scrapped. 

I am going like you say copy what you guys have created with obviously my own research and preferences.

I do have an idea of which frogs I want so can create around that but there is far to much to get correct before even considering having a frog in there.

P.s I have been using the search function before anyone asks I get some answers but not all. So anything I do ask is because I have not understood or been able to relate.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Misting for one viv is probably as well done by a hand mister for now.
If you start adding more vivs, as no doubt you will just like the rest of us, then an automatic misting system will be better.
Foggers are a waste of money and only really add to the effect.
They actually produce a cool fog which can in fact lower viv temperatures.
The plant thing will come like I said and as long as they're kept moist and given enough light they`ll be fine.


Mike


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Cheers Mike

Are you guys just using bottled water for spraying?


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hi Lee,

I use RO water for my misting to keep my glass as nice as I can. I use bottled water or tap water that has sat for a day for my water bowl or for extra plant watering. 
I had my tank up and running for about 4 months before I added frogs for several reasons. I had a 3 week holiday booked and the main one is I couldn't wait to get it set up as my patience ran out  I would say a month or two would be ideal to let everything settle in and no doubt you will make some changes in that time as well.

Marc.


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks Marc.

Have you got a unit for the Ro water? Or are you buying it if so where from. 

There's lots of various opinions on water. Distilled, ro, rain water then boiled, tap boiled and spring water. 

There doesn't seem to be a definite answer just lots of variants.


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Gecko1977 said:


> Thanks Marc.
> 
> Have you got a unit for the Ro water? Or are you buying it if so where from.
> 
> ...


I haven't got a unit. I get my RO water from a local fish shop for 10p a litre. I have a mistking and use around 2 litres a week. I get 75 litres at a time so not too much mucking around, plus I get to have a nose at the fish which I love.

A lot of it seems to come down to personal preference. If you live in the sticks i'd assume rain water would be great but close to city or industrial not so. I use RO as it doesn't chalk up my nozzles or glass and distilled is bloody expensive!

Never heard of using boiled tap and left for 24-48 hours anything harmful is dissipated.

There is a great post buried somewhere that explains all of the water and their properties. As I have said I use mineral for them to bath in and where it doesn't touch the glass. RO does lack minerals but from what I have read once it hits a soil it re-establishes these minerals through the soil. This is only my understanding though, perhaps some of the other guys will correct me.


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks again Marc I had sort of guessed that there is differing opinions because od availability. 
I would presume Ro water would be everyone's choice if easily available.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I use tap water with conditioner.
Always have and always will.


Mike


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

frogman955 said:


> I use tap water with conditioner.
> Always have and always will.
> 
> 
> Mike


Can I ask what conditioner Mike? Is this just a dechlorinator? I did read something about an additive once for putting back minerals in RO water but haven't actively sourced it, is it something you would suggest?

Marc


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Gecko1977 said:


> Names Lee guys.
> 
> Cheers Stu
> 
> ...


 Hey Lee,mate i'm bombed 13hrday so no use to ya,just wanted to say ask mate always ask,we are still learning too and as hard as one researches there will always be questions they never stop. It's alot to get ya head around mate in part why I love this.

Speak soon mate have a dig for Mike's and Joe's room threads mate plus I have a little one too. Lee we really don't all do this the same even though ya got an accord on this Q about plants and bio setups 
good luck

Stu

HEY JOE:crazy::jump::lol2:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Hey stu lol


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wingnut2711 said:


> Can I ask what conditioner Mike? Is this just a dechlorinator? I did read something about an additive once for putting back minerals in RO water but haven't actively sourced it, is it something you would suggest?
> 
> Marc


HI Marc
I use Fluval Aqua Plus aquarium water conditioner.



Mike


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Not sure what happened to my last reply guess I didn't submit.
I do like this conditioner idea especially having an aquatic warehouse at the bottom of my road. 
Mike have you ever had any trouble with any type of plant using the water with conditioner?

Cheers Stu will have a look at them threads appreciate the time you guys are putting in to this thread. I know it can be frustrating answering alot of the same questions over and over. There's just so many differing opinions on alot of subjects. 

I am going to be concentrating on lighting next had a quick glance today. I may well be back to this thread looking at just the replies I saw today lol.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I`ve used the same conditioner from day one and so far had no issues with it.
Last year I changed onto the interpet one to try it out but although the frogs seemed to be doing okay I suddenly found that tadpoles were dying.
I changed back to my usual one and no more trouble.
Based on that it would seem that they don`t all do the exact same job.
Plant wise mine all seem to do well so I couldn`t say that it affects them in any way.
There is no real need for you to look into lighting.
There is only one lamp worth looking at, the Arcadia jungle dawn.
I have been using them since they hit the shelves and their performance is awesome.
Normal plants all grow well under them, but the biggest difference has been in my broms, some of which have literally doubled in size and have coloured up like you wouldn`t believe.
Everyone who knows me also knows that I don`t use substrate in my vivs but peat plates from Dartfrog.
Under the jungle dawns the moss growth on them has been astounding, you can see a couple of photo`s below.


Mike


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## Ruairidh (Nov 15, 2015)

Recently bought a jungle dawn, just about blinded myself after stupidly looking at the leds then turning it on.... Yeah the iq in the room lowered significantly then XD. I have to admit though, they are damn good lights, and compared to many other growth lights, are very good in value. I'm currently having a look into possibly a much less expensive option if you're up to doing a bit of diy 

Edit: mike is that a fireball bromiliad?
Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Lee, this is what I mean about how we all do stuff different,we use rainwater,it's got an activated carbon side in the base filtration,by base I means a simple set of pond type filter media to take bits of stuff our more than an actual filter which we used for years.Details are in my room thread with pics so have a dig. Mate i'm a bit of an eco nut,don't like wasting water hate paying for it, rain water seems to work very well,there might always be a caviat as in where one lives. but have a dig for AJC's virtual frogroom(Alan Cann,I haven't visited for yonks,but a great piece about RW there)

Laterly,I have also used a filter made by arcadia which works really well as an addition.

Lee I still actually hand mist all vivs,I've drilled every viv we have made for a misting system but never went there,in part this relates to plants mate,I can put water where I want it in the exact quantity I want it when I want. So if I want one plant to get a bit more another not so much freedom of choice is there.

It goes further though bro. Once ya get darts mature and happy they are likely to breed, water is part of being able to slow this (it's also related to fat levels in females). But I still have freedom with a larger set up to stop one lot of frogs and kick another group/viv in. Breeding seasons can be short in the wild over breeding can deplete females,drying a viv down is both difficult to get one's head around at first(scared me to death) but of serious importance for you one day in the future,hear these words bro store and forget until much later. A hand mister is primitive Lee but there is way more at play than simply providing constant humidity.

Mate I now have racked up a number of cases where someone has contacted me with problems with tads and sls (spindle leg syndrome) rainwater has helped muchly with this,i'm not saying the be all and end all just stating cold hard fact,RO may be better suited to a misting system,but it sort of goes against my ethos of wasting water plus I see little logic in getting all the lets call it "stuff" out of water then adding back. Marc's point of clear glass being utterly valid though mine won't match his,spent a good few hours recently with a stanley blade cleaning viv tops(BORING!!:bash.

seeya

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ruairidh said:


> Edit: mike is that a fireball bromiliad?



It`s a Neo Treasure Chest.


Mike


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Hope you've all had a great weekend.
More and more I read the realisation of how differently people do this is coming apparent.

Upto now I have decided a eco system is a must. 
Uv is not something I am going to use. 
Does everyone use the arcadia lighting? Just be interested in what others are recommended. 
I quite like the look of this Peat plates. Can I ask if anyone uses them? If so do they hold the shape or do they break down over time?


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

The only thing I can answer is the Jungle Dawn query, I use one and think its ace, really worth the money and chuffed to pieces with the results. I actually have a brom flowering under one now,

Marc.


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## Gecko1977 (Aug 24, 2011)

Bump back to the top (feeling rude)


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