# Even Caimans have competition !



## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Here is my Caiman , watch to the end .....

Turtle gives it a run for its money !

YouTube - my Dwarf Caiman feeding turtles


LOL



Steve


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## garysumpter (Apr 18, 2005)

Isnt that really dangerous for both animals?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

:lol2: who won in the end?


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

garysumpter said:


> Isnt that really dangerous for both animals?


na, The turtle let go soon after .... with a leg in its mouth ...


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Teh little one, isnt standing for no Shiz lol


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Declan123 said:


> Teh little one, isnt standing for no Shiz lol


Nah, gives it one time !

LOL


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## wayakinwolf (Oct 6, 2006)

Great movie, those turtles sure did give him a run for his money eh!!
How old is the caiman?


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks , the Caiman is just over a year old .....


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## elliottreed (Jan 9, 2008)

HAHA steve amazing vid !
need to meet 'em soon!
xxx


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanx , yea all good , will have to arrange it soon ......


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Possibly the stupidest thing i have seen in a long time. Probably stressful for the caiman.... undoubtedly stressful for the yellowbelly slider. shocked to my very core people like you are allowed to keep caiman. 

I don't think it's cool or funny, i think your an arsehole.

and don;t think i have a problem with you, i don't.... or at least i didn't until i saw that video.


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## garysumpter (Apr 18, 2005)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> Possibly the stupidest thing i have seen in a long time. Probably stressful for the caiman.... undoubtedly stressful for the yellowbelly slider. shocked to my very core people like you are allowed to keep caiman.
> 
> I don't think it's cool or funny, i think your an arsehole.
> 
> and don;t think i have a problem with you, i don't.... or at least i didn't until i saw that video.


Glad it wasnt just me that disagreed with it.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

i have seen it done more than once


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> i think your an arsehole.


I think you should keep opinions like that to yourself !


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I think this is a public forum and i am entitled to my opinion. i am merely voicing what most are thinking.

you must know its not right to keep those species together?


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> Possibly the stupidest thing i have seen in a long time. Probably stressful for the caiman.... undoubtedly stressful for the yellowbelly slider. shocked to my very core people like you are allowed to keep caiman.
> 
> I don't think it's cool or funny, i think your an arsehole.
> 
> and don;t think i have a problem with you, i don't.... or at least i didn't until i saw that video.


 
This is the problem with this forum. Opinions obviously are needed on here but this sort of opinion is not needed. You don't agree with it fair enough thats up to you. But why blatently insult someone. Not necessary. If it was that stressful for the slider, he would have let go

Anyway Fangsy nice caiman. Very, very jealous


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> you must know its not right to keep those species together?


I was advised by Jerry Cole (the person that I got this Caiman from), and the only UK breeder for Dwarf Caiman that this is absolutely fine ..... and Turtles live in with he's and have done since day one !

Im sorry , but that is type of person and experience that i listen to .....


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

mike515 said:


> This is the problem with this forum. Opinions obviously are needed on here but this sort of opinion is not needed. You don't agree with it fair enough thats up to you. But why blatently insult someone. Not necessary. If it was that stressful for the slider, he would have let go
> 
> Anyway Fangsy nice caiman. Very, very jealous


Thank you , I can assure you that if I see that the animals were fighting in any way , i would remove the Sliders right away ...

If fact they seem to be great friends, and swim near and with each other all the time and the Caiman never snaps at them , this is something that I keep my eye on all the time.

Thanks again 

Steve


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

your welcome mate. Quite often have a read on your threads. Would love to have a dwa license. Ive spoken to my counsel and been throught to procedure of DWA. He said would be no problem if i follow protocol. Only problem is that i live with the mother, and shes a childminder. So gonna have to wait a few years. Given me a couple of ideas though, cheers


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Trust me you will recieve a sincere public apology from myself for insulting you when you acknowledge that you were causing unnecesarry stress to that turtle. with all the talk of anti propaganda, you just threw a can of gas at their fire with that video. and many people on here see a DWA licence as a sign of a keeper with great knowledge and something to look up too, which in a way is true. but these animals are not intended to be housed together regardless of what your breeder tells you. in the wild the turtle would be able to get as far away from the croc as it needs to in order to feel safe, in a captive setting that simply isnt possible.

and its all wel and good saying that if they fought you'd seperate.... by the time a slider begins fighting a caiman..... you may well be too late. that is my ONLY concern. i don't care about you, only your animals welfare.


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> Trust me you will recieve a sincere public apology from myself for insulting you when you acknowledge that you were causing unnecesarry stress to that turtle. with all the talk of anti propaganda, you just threw a can of gas at their fire with that video. and many people on here see a DWA licence as a sign of a keeper with great knowledge and something to look up too, which in a way is true. but these animals are not intended to be housed together regardless of what your breeder tells you. in the wild the turtle would be able to get as far away from the croc as it needs to in order to feel safe, in a captive setting that simply isnt possible.
> 
> and its all wel and good saying that if they fought you'd seperate.... by the time a slider begins fighting a caiman..... you may well be too late. that is my ONLY concern. i don't care about you, only your animals welfare.


I understand what you say but .... as I said if at anytime , and they are always monitored closely , I see the turtles not feeding (this would be a sign of stress !) not being active (this would be a sign of stress!) not swimming or coming to the surface) again , a sign of stress, I would re-house them immediately , none of these are signs that they are showing and therefore they will stay together .....

I have been trusted after 5 years of knowing him and 8 months of visits by my DWA officer who has programmes on NAT GEO WILD and is a DWA keeper himself, with this DWA licence, I would and have not in anyway abused this trust and will continue to do what I see fit with my animals ....


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

I have to agree with Fangsy on this one. Neither animal looks stressed, just hungry and healthy. I'm not pretending i have any experience with either of these animals but i personally wouldn't have thought they would do each other any damage.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Fully respect Dave's knowledge on reps but like Fishboy says neither looked stressed. I did see Dave's first post before the video (it took me to page 2 for some reason) and the only thing that i registered with me was that they were both trying to get the food and not each other. They didn't seem to be fighting over it either.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Also, i have seen both animals kept together in Zoos etc before


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## garysumpter (Apr 18, 2005)

OK got to chip in with my PERSONAL OPINION.

I have no experience of either animal, if they can be kept together, great.

However, I would personally have taken a LOT more care with feeding and wouldnt have fed them so close together. Same goes with lots of reptiles, cohabiting is fine, the issue comes with feeding time.

Far too much risk involved.

Just my 50p worth.

Gary


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Declan123 said:


> Also, i have seen both animals kept together in Zoos etc before


As have i. but not in fish tanks.


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## Dragons Kingdom (Nov 15, 2007)

what a complete idiot!! some ppl on here dont have a clue, how did you get a dwa???? ppl saying what a great video!! WHAT??? YOU CALL THAT GREAT ENTERTAINMENT???? you shouldnt mix species in a enclosure that small and you def should not have the animals fight for food, they should be fed seperate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dragons Kingdom (Nov 15, 2007)

and as for ppl starting there post by saying they have no experiance or knowledge of these animals!! DONT POST ABOUT THEM THEN!!!!!!!!!!


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## joe0709 (Sep 22, 2007)

surely if the slider was so stressed it would have let go ?


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## Eric (Feb 26, 2007)

This has turned into quite the debate. I honestly don't see the problem here. Stress on the turtle come on that turtle got a leg and went away happy. 

I have seen on several occasions where turtles and crocidillians are housed together with no issues. This includes indoor and outdoor displays I can also say I have the seen both species swimming side by side with no problems. Not trying to get away from each other even in out door enclosures the turtles will come over and feed off the scraps the crocidillians drop or if they can tear a piece of chicken off they will.

The zoos don't feed while people are around or you would see this in their enclosures as well but they avoid the criticism by feeding after hours cause they don't want people to make a big fuss over nothing.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

These species will live in harmony until the caiman decides that the terrapin is food. 

When that point happens it WILL get eaten. Turtles, and terrapins make up part of the natural diet of caimen...

Seriously i agree with dave whole heartedly, every word he has said. 

some people shouldnt have animals, and DEFFINATLY not DWAL animals. And it is my opinion that you are one of those people.


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

joe0709 said:


> surely if the slider was so stressed it would have let go ?


MAny lizards can bite and lockjaw, they can die and still be biting on.
Animals that panic react diferently. ONe animal will stand til the end, others wil run.
If the slider is scared shitless to the extent it thinks this is its last stand, why wouldnt it keep biting? i bloody would lol.
I can only see this co-habitation as bad. You have two predators, one of whic gets significantly larger. Seems pretty idiotic.
MAYBE, if you own a lake or something? lol
I agree with Dan & Dan on this im afriad, it looks more stress than its worth for the animals. and i cans ee this going only one way really.Maybe if you can find some scientific DOCUMENTS explaining that these have some level of symbiosis, or cohabitiationary instincts then you will have a decent poit, and grounds to risk it. It wouldnt be a risk then.
Its seems pretty studpid putting a turtle in with expectance of it keeping its life. Many crocodylia can be found to have turtle in their stomach. arent your expecting this one to not end up like that?
Tis a shame you dont sit examinations for DWA licensing


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

oh, quick question Fangsy,
Do you work? 
You say you monitor them closely, but how could you if you work?
If you dont work, how do you afford it all? lol


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

he could work from home..


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

just an opinion so every one keeping anything comunal in a closed comunity as even comunal animals like primates ect still ned to be able to get away from the other animals or it will create stress is this not true 


luke


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## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

i dont see a problem to be honest both look fine and are obviously eating fine and if the only breeder in the uk ? or succesfully in the uk does it fine and his are breeding ect it dont seem to be such a big deal like your making out


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> some people shouldnt have animals, and DEFFINATLY not DWAL animals. And it is my opinion that you are one of those people.


And again I DEFINATELY think this is a opinion that you should keep to yourself !


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

BTW - this post was in response to LukeandDaniel

true, i think being annoyed at having company isnt quite as stressful as having company that bites you.. oh and eats you in nature lo
Cohabiting is fine if its the same in nature.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm sorry but if you dont want opinions then dont post a thread in a Public forum. 

I think the enclosure is good, and the caiman is fairly happy, but i think that anyone who wants to risk the life of an animal shouldnt have any at all. And like it or not that is what you are doing by having sliders with the caiman. 

Not to mention the differnt requirements and pathogens they may transfer.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

I love how the "but everyone else does it" argument always gets used.

Wrong.

I'm with Dave and Dan on this one.

regardless of how much you monitor it, how many people do it ect you are still risking both animals which is not fair and is wrong IMO.

it's unfair to place two animals in a forced situation where there is potential to harm one or both.


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## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

Mason said:


> it's unfair to place two animals in a forced situation where there is potential to harm one or both.


you meen like when people put 2 snakes together for breeding? :whistling2:


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

weelad said:


> you meen like when people put 2 snakes together for breeding? :whistling2:


 
No.

Frankly I don't see how the two situations are comparable in the slightest.


Breeding is a natural occurence, the only thing that would happen between a caiman and a turt in the wild is predation!


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## Hardwicki (Jun 18, 2007)

And what if the turtle was injured when he was smashed against the rock then dragged along his back by the caiman? If you cared enough about your animals welbeing, you would re-think the set up or at least the feeding technique.
: victory:


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## Phaedra (Sep 12, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> I'm sorry but if you dont want opinions then dont post a thread in a Public forum.
> 
> I think the enclosure is good, and the caiman is fairly happy, but i think that anyone who wants to risk the life of an animal shouldnt have any at all. And like it or not that is what you are doing by having sliders with the caiman.
> 
> Not to mention the differnt requirements and pathogens they may transfer.





Mason said:


> I love how the "but everyone else does it" argument always gets used.
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Well obv people on forums starting arguements and rants isnt going to change anything in the slightest.

It may not be natural but neither is keeping reps in captivity at all.


I am not stating my opinion on whether i agree or disagree btw so no arguements please lol


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## Phaedra (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think people are saying it's not natural, they're saying it's not safe. Keeping a reptile in captivity is safer for it than the wild, if the husbandry is correct. People are saying the husbandry here isn't correct.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Mason said:


> Breeding is a natural occurence, the only thing that would happen between a caiman and a turt in the wild is predation!


This is stating that breeding is natural (correct), but housing these together is not.

Its nature, personaly i wouldnt put them together but its just my opinion, im not going to pressure it on anybody else.
Also there are alot of exceptions, i am not going to state what is right and what is wrong as i cant say i know it for a fact, but in my experience as long as they are evenly sized etc... and brought up together, they 'should' be fine together (just like a cat and dog).

The onlt problem in my eyes that will make anything turn nasty is competition for food, but as long as they are well fed etc... this 'shouldnt' be a problem.

As said before this is only but my opinion 



Phil : victory:


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Out of all the people that have posted their opinions on this thread ..... how many of you have Paleosuchus Palpebrosus ?

Just a question .....


Steve


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

fangsy said:


> Out of all the people that have posted their opinions on this thread ..... how many of you have Paleosuchus Palpebrosus ?
> 
> Just a question .....
> 
> ...


I had a female for just under a year, but we sold her when we moved.


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Philcw said:


> I had a female for just under a year, but we sold her when we moved.


Fantastic, ok thats one out of Twenty that have commented so far.......

Anybody else ?


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I don't see what that has to do with anything? thats just a cop out if you ask me. i have worked with crocodilins and venomous. granted they weren't mine but i feel confident enough to comment on them.


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

How can a turtle being dragged and banged about like that not make anyone think it could be stressfull? I certainly wouldnt let any of my animals go through anything like that, despite what any breeder tells me is ok.

If you only want positive feedback only from fellow caiman owners then your in the wrong place mucka.


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Moshpitviper said:


> I don't see what that has to do with anything? thats just a cop out if you ask me. i have worked with crocodilins and venomous. granted they weren't mine but i feel confident enough to comment on them.


I wasnt asking you , but thanks anyway , I can obviously see from the amount of experienced keepers on here of Paleosuchus Palpebrosus that you have all experienced this and are giving your actual keeping experience ......

I bought from Jerry Cole , who has 20 yrs of Paleosuchus Palpebrosus breeding Experience .... I think he should know more about how to keep this species than anybody on here.

I am definately not putting any animal in danger here and cant beleive that all you doogooders are on your high horse so much , I could post 50 + videos of the turtle sitting on the crocs back and the croc not even having a reaction , I think everybody has reacted in the typical way you would expect for this (more argumentative than constructive forum) to react.....

I have a DWA because I have been granted with such a responsibility and would not put any animal at risk as I have stated so many times on here ..... 

I have the room and enclosures to seperate any animal as and when its required ....

I also keep Pokies (tarantulas) together and they have had no problems in 2 years .... EVEN THOUGH THIS IS A BIG NO ..... NO !!!!!

I beleive in the fact that not all situations are the same , and so nothing is engraved in concrete !

If any of you can prove that you have put in more than 20 years plus of experience with Paleosuchus Palpebrosus and have kept them together with sliders and this has ended in one of the sliders or god forbid the Paleosuchus Palpebrosus getting injured then please speak up .....

Until then I think you are all pissing in the wind .....


Many thanks , and I dont mean to offend any of the experienced keepers that have posted in my favour on here ....

Steve


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I too have kept P. rufilata together, they are fairly good communally speaking. my question is if you have the facilities to house each animal seperately.... why are they housed together?


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Moshpitviper said:


> I too have kept P. rufilata together, they are fairly good communally speaking. my question is if you have the facilities to house each animal seperately.... why are they housed together?


Because I have learned from the breeder with 20 yrs + experience that they can be housed together and I too have experienced that fact, and I have seen many times that the turtle will stay on the Paleosuchus Palpebrosus's back and there will be no reaction from the croc , if I see the Paleosuchus Palpebrosus was going for the slider in any way , or snapping at them then I would seperate them immediately.

This is definately not a issue in my enclosure ......


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## crouchy (Jan 14, 2008)

fangsy said:


> If any of you can prove that you have put in more than 20 years plus of experience with Paleosuchus Palpebrosus and have kept them together with sliders and this has ended in one of the sliders or god forbid the Paleosuchus Palpebrosus getting injured then please speak up .....
> 
> Until then I think you are all pissing in the wind .....
> Steve


Thats a terrible attitude to have. Im sure no-one on this forum has had the misfortune of been bitten by a salt water croc but does that mean it couldnt happen if they kept one? of course not, dont be so nieve

I understand where you are coming from with the fact that an experienced breeder has kept them together so you think you can but if it was me id seperate them as soon as i saw anything like what you have shown in that video. Im not havin a go at you or tellin you what you should do im just saying that in my opinion no animal should have to be dragged around its enclosure in a competion for food


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

crouchy said:


> Thats a terrible attitude to have. Im sure no-one on this forum has had the misfortune of been bitten by a salt water croc but does that mean it couldnt happen if they kept one? of course not, dont be so nieve
> 
> I understand where you are coming from with the fact that an experienced breeder has kept them together so you think you can but if it was me id seperate them as soon as i saw anything like what you have shown in that video. Im not havin a go at you or tellin you what you should do im just saying that in my opinion no animal should have to be dragged around its enclosure in a competion for food



This was a natural instinct for the slider to try to get the food , but does not mean that they should not be kept together , it just simply means that the slider is a healthy slider that is trying to get the food , if I see , and dont forget I was video - ing !!!!!! that if the slider was in any danger I would have stepped in straight away .... they have been kept together , not only by the breeder that I bought off, but by many many Zoo's and im sorry but do you have the experience to argue with this ?

I await your response with the most anticipation ......


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

nice slider and nice caiman, just dont feed them together imo


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## Dragons Kingdom (Nov 15, 2007)

u keep going on about all the good advice u have had from the breeder!! maybe u should ask him 2 comment on this forum 4 u then!!!!! untill then we prob wont belief a word u say!!!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I know the breeder well, and they have successfully kept both animals together for years with no problems, they were also the first people in the UK to breed them succesfully where alot of other people failed.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

I think everyone should stop giving their "oppinons"... Its in the past now....

The new topic...Whens Viperkeeper gonna post a new vid :whistling2: :lol2:


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## garysumpter (Apr 18, 2005)

Still looks damn stupid to me....


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

fangsy said:


> This was a natural instinct for the slider to try to get the food , but does not mean that they should not be kept together , it just simply means that the slider is a healthy slider that is trying to get the food , if I see , and dont forget I was video - ing !!!!!! that if the slider was in any danger I would have stepped in straight away .... they have been kept together , not only by the breeder that I bought off, but by many many Zoo's and im sorry but do you have the experience to argue with this ?
> 
> I await your response with the most anticipation ......


Your video clearly shows a turtle being dragged across an enclosure, why would I need experience to know thats not a pleasent experience for the turtle? Common sense and basic husbandry seems to be worth a lot more than experience in this case.


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## WeThePeople (Jul 8, 2007)

garysumpter said:


> Still looks damn stupid to me....


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

WeThePeople said:


>


hehe, feel the same way


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Although I dont think a person has to have kept the species to have an opinion on whether the caiman and the slider should be kept together...
And i think theres a difference between a zo enclosure, and that tank.. [not to mention zoos do things we dont agree with at times actually]

I do think some of you, firstly moshpitviper and then dragonskingdom and then mason came across overly agressive from the get go.

Could a "oh nice mate ,but did you know that there is evidence that caiman may eat sliders" or soemthing equally less agressive might have been nicer than "you arsehole"

Anyone who doesnt know who jerry cole is [not that im a super fan or anything gay like that] perhaps has no place commenting with things like \"until he comments we wont believe a word you say" crap as its totally believeable that he said it, he is the only known breeder in the uk [again anyone with a knowledge of these id assume would happen to coem across that]

That said... fangsy... what would you have to see in order to believe there may be a possible problem?
and what does having the slider in there add to your caiman enclosure?

To be honest, and i know this wont be a popular remark [dont give a t0ss] both sides have acted very childish, and none of you do favours to the hobby with such OTT nonsense.


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## crouchy (Jan 14, 2008)

fangsy said:


> This was a natural instinct for the slider to try to get the food , but does not mean that they should not be kept together , it just simply means that the slider is a healthy slider that is trying to get the food , if I see , and dont forget I was video - ing !!!!!! that if the slider was in any danger I would have stepped in straight away .... they have been kept together , not only by the breeder that I bought off, but by many many Zoo's and im sorry but do you have the experience to argue with this ?
> 
> I await your response with the most anticipation ......


Experience isnt everything in a case like this. Ive never had children and ive never kept rattlesnakes so i have no experience with them but i know its not a good idea to keep them in a tank together. Plus there is also the fact that you actually have very little experience with the animals involved. From what i can tell you have been keeping crocs for less than a year which in anyones eyes would still make you a novice, does that mean that your opinion doesnt count either then?

I cant see how you can keep trying to defend this when your only defence is that someone else did it. All it takes is for the two animals to go for the same food item at the same time and the croc could accidently bite down on the sliders head, killing it in a matter of seconds. Please tell me what you could do in that situation. how would you prevent injury after the croc has already chewed on the sliders head?

The risks of injury and death are just too high for anyone to consider keeping those 2 animals together safe


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Hey, after the post i posted above [2 posts above] last night my comp crashed, anyway... im not gona re-read it now ,but im CERTAIN it was a little rude, so i apologise.
And believe it or not its been on my mind all last night [whilst i was smoking and playing cards] what adick i may have come across in regards to downtalking... but anyway, you all acting very immature in this thread but im no better so there ya go.

Fact is..fangsy clearly doesnt think theres a problem, and wont listen.
And the other side clearly thinks it is, and wont listen to any differing circumstances whatsoever.

I dont know much about caiman or sliders really, but it looked like fairless harmless non aggressive feeding to me.
The caiman coulda sent the slider flying if he had wanted...the slider if at all scared wouldnt have continued after the food.
"lock jaw, carrying on holding on for dear life" i think soemone said..i really dont think so at all.

I think if food is available, and the slider is always "more of a meal" than the caiman needs to bother with, then it prolly never will.

I guess its soemwaht similar to...and im bringing it down now so sorry.. but bearded dragons or cornsnakes, you dont keep a baby beardie with an adult ,even an adult that wouldnt eat another beardie in ten years, just incase, as IT COULD and apparently has happened, im sure hunger does a lot to an instinct in the way of bringing it out...but then is a bearded dragon a natural hunter> not liek a caiman i guess.
2 corns together other than for mating, not usually done "incase"...again a lack of food is the main cause of a problem id think.
Or is it aggression?
could the caiman hurt the slider?
If it could, then usually in the reptile hobby we avoid it.
If nobody ever does anything, you never know whether its a good idea or not... until you have a story to give evidence either way.
Jerry cole apparently HAS kept them together without a problem....
so there is "some" reasoning in the favour of keeping them together.
Counter argument? in the wild sliders make up part of a caimans diet? does the size of both specimens and the sizes they will each reach fit in with that possibility? and is it a probability at all?
I guess it only needs to be a tiny chance to be considered wrong.

Fangsy DOES NOT think theres an issue, and going over the top and shouting "arsehole" is not going to change that.

Someone made reference to anothe rspecies that apparently "shouldnt" be kept together and is.. i think fangsy and someone else... so was it evil and behaviour unbecoming of a herper that lead both to discover its do-able?
or was it free thinking?



PS- having found this link through a search....i honestly didnt realise the topic had died for 6 days..otherwise i wouldnt have said anything, i feel bad now, i was under the impression this was going on as i read last night befor ei posted, so sorry if its already been resolved, im a tard.


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## star-gazer-666 (Apr 8, 2008)

I'm pretty new to this but I really think you are giving this guy a hard time, 
When I was in Florida at the Space Centre they had this enclosure in the middle which had aliigators and turtles living in it, ok it was on a bigger scale to the enclosure fangsy prolly has but if you think about the size of the animals in the one I saw and also the amount of animals, I saw at least 5 different alligators and 3 turtles while I was standing there (there was prolly a lot more there that could not be seen) it is prolly almost the same sort of situation and they all seemed to be getting on fine. I imagine feeding time was prolly a bit voilent but if any of them were in danger they would obviously seperate them.

What I am trying to say is animals that are kept in captivity need some sort of stimulation or else they get bored and we either get a caged hen effect or they get aggresive and can no longer be handled safely, at least this way it is sort of recreating a natural habitat. I would have thought it be more dangerous to keep animals of the same species like this together as they would get territorial and possibly injure each other.....like when pet shops keep 5+ terrapins in one small fish tank and expect you to pay £10 for them and you can clearly see they are all fighting with each other. That is the sort of thing that should be making us mad, not someone who is licensed to keep these animals and is obviously keeping them well.


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## Durhamchance (Mar 21, 2008)

WeThePeople said:


> Your video clearly shows a turtle being dragged across an enclosure, why would I need experience to know thats not a pleasent experience for the turtle? Common sense and basic husbandry seems to be worth a lot more than experience in this case.


I totally agree.

I have a YBS and I would never ever dream of putting him through something like that. 

He has his own tank and his own food and he is safe.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

so why didnt the turtle just let go then?


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## Durhamchance (Mar 21, 2008)

Maybe its hungry?

As it has that much competition for food, it may be prepared to fight til the death?


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## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

> If fact they seem to be great friends, and swim near and with each other all the time


How can you confirm this. As i feel this is highly unlikly.

Also, why have the risk of two animals together, with the evidence of people stating the turtle will be on menu in the future, why even risk it. Especially as you state theres a tank ready for the Slider if anything goes wrong?

Fair playif the Slider helps the caimen's health better, but I can't think of one positive that the Slider is doing there, on behalf of the caimen and the slider.


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## Dungbug (Oct 16, 2007)

I've got no experience in keeping a Caimen, but as this is a public forum I'm allowed to post. I think to feed both species together is wrong if they're fighting over the food that's put in for them, I've seen turtles with crocodilians in zoo's but they're enclosures are on a much bigger scale and have area's where the turtles can go as a 'safe habour' when required. Maybe try feeding them at separate ends of the enclosure to avoid any clashes, I wouldn't think of feeding hungry animals with one bit of food between two or more animals, most will fight for it as it's in their nature to survive. I'm curious to know how you would 'separate' them if things took a turn for the worse, from what I know about crocodilians they can kill prey in a split second & I wouldn't want to be the one trying to separate the two of them. 
I'm not having a go here, you have your DWA license which is great, you've spoken to a specialist (the breeder) regarding the situation which again is great but I just feel that what I saw in the video wasn't right some how, I may be way off the mark but to say you would separate them if there was a problem seems a bit complacent, which surely is the last thing to be when owning a DWA.


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## bannyian (Jun 13, 2007)

after reading through the thread, i am not saying i have any experience what so ever at keeping either of the animals, but fangsy appears to be a person who cares about the welfare of his animals so i take his word that he would do nothing to harm either animal and also would go out of his way to stop it happening


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