# Young Corn Snake not climbing



## Tanja (Aug 9, 2021)

Hi to everyone!

I have 2 corn snakes, both 6 years old. Female and male. The Female lays eggs twice a year. Her record ist 39....

Couple of years ago, she had an egg got stuck in her stomach. The vet pushed it out, the egg was perfectly white, not rotten or damaged. There was also a mini mini droplet of blood, what came out. So, everything ok. The vet gave her painkiller (once), against inflammation.

One year after that, I realized, that she had gained weight, too much, it was my mistake - I wanted to power feed her, because of the energy what she had lost by laying the eggs, and what she would need for laying the 2nd eggs, but I did it a bit too long, and she got some weight. Well, then we started to eat less. But her body started to change the form. in her rear part, she stayed wide. And I have the feeling, that the widened area has got longer (instead 15cm now 25cm?). The Vet didn't find anything suspicious, she was thinking, that it could be, because she is always laying so many eggs, so the body do not recover into the old form anymore.

The snake is very curious, always watching what we are doing, also eating very well, like always. Shedding is also normal.

What makes me really worried is, that she is not climbing anymore (since 6 Months already). What could be the reason for that? If I put her higher in the terrarium, she do climb down. Looks normal to me. Her eyes we have also checked, nothing wrong. 

Could somebody help me? Have you heard about similar cases? And what could be the reason, if a corn snake is not climbing anymore? And why does she have that wide part in her body? 

Thank you very much in advance!
- Lissy (Corn Snake) and Tanja


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Firstly, why do you double clutch her EVERY year - I'm guessing because you always keep her in with the male. If that's the case please invest in another vivarium, heater, etc and give her a rest. Whilst they will double clutch (back when I kept and bred corns I ONLY double clutched my big female ONCE and she produced two clutches totalling 74 eggs - But it took it out of her so she was rested the following year). Secondly, post up a clear picture of the lump so others can advise, but that advice is typically to seek the opinion of a qualified vet... which you already have done, and if they can't discover anything then there's nothing much anyone of us could add, and if we did feel it was this or that may bring into question the vets opinion.


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

She's only 6yrs old, but her poor body is being abused by repeated matings. How young did you start breeding her? Is she always in with the male? 

I'd imagine, that like us humans, the body only takes so much stretching before it losses the ability to go back to normal. Is your vet reptile savy?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

I don't recognise the flag in the OP's profile, but if he's double clutching at 30+ eggs a time there must be one hell of demand for corn snakes in his country.

Basically I think they have over bread the snake, and possibly at a young age !


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

OP is in Austria.


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## Tanja (Aug 9, 2021)

Thank you so much for the answers!
We have a vet appointment tomorrow. But I think I will hear the same from her - too often eggs, and have to separate the snakes.

Answering shortly: The snakes have been always together, I write from Austria (Vienna) and here the private persons are not allowed to sell reptiles so we always just shaked the eggs and threw them away (as we were told to do), so we are not breeding or selling them. The vet who we have now is a very good one, specialized for reptiles, working at a Vet Med Uni Vienna. 

The problem is, that I have got wrong information from other sources - previous vet, reptile shop, even some professionals... (before we found this one). And I feel totally horrible now - I have tried to do everything as well as I can, also trying to search for correct Information, I never wanted to harm my snake, I love my snakes so much!
The 2 corn snakes were sold to me as 2 females. I even went to double-check it to our reptile shop, when the snakes were 9 months old. And then I find them mating at 1,5 years old... 

I was shocked, because I have read, that it might even cost the life of the female, if she is mated too young! So I called immediately a vet emergency number: "Please help, my corn snakes are mating!" That was the only thing, that came to my mind at that second in the mid-night; ask help from a vet. I think they have had a good laugh afterwards... 

Well, the next day I went to tell about it to my reptile shop, and they were just laughing, that if the nature says, that the snakes are ready to mate, then they are ready for it. And it is normal. And I should not worry. Well, I did anyway. They also told me, it is better to have the male all the time together with the female, otherwise the female will produce non fertilized eggs, which is difficult to get out of the body, so it is better to have the male there all the time. After that I went to a vet (not an reptile-expert), and he told me to call a "big expert" of corn snakes.

I asked the expert in telephone: I am in the middle of building a big terrarium for my corn snakes. If I should separate them because they are female and male, please tell it to me now, that I can change the plans. He told me, that the snakes can be held together. And later still another vet told me (when there were the first signs of the unnormal form of her abdomen ), that she is fat.
So, long story... 

I write here, to get help and Information, to be able to make everything better in the future, please do not attack me madly; if I would not be motivated to help my snake in the best way, I would also not write here.


is her body ever going to get better again?
where do you get the Information of corn snakes; any recommendations? I just have some books, but I guess they are also already old...
Do you know similar cases, and if, what happened to the snake..? (I am afraid to hear the worse...😢)

Thank you for your time by helping us, and sharing your information and experience with me! I really appreciate it.

- Lissy and Tanja


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Without wanting to sound unpleasant, why the hell did you not separate them after the first clutch????
If you are not allowed to breed them (not sure that's true, a quick search brings back ZERO references to this, and selling privately bred snakes? Well there are two huge events in the EU, in Hamm and Houten, full of private breeders) then why keep then together?
You have a simple choice.
Rehome one of them or keep them separately. 
Otherwise that female is going to die very prematurely.


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## Tanja (Aug 9, 2021)

ian14 said:


> Without wanting to sound unpleasant, why the hell did you not separate them after the first clutch????
> If you are not allowed to breed them (not sure that's true, a quick search brings back ZERO references to this, and selling privately bred snakes? Well there are two huge events in the EU, in Hamm and Houten, full of private breeders) then why keep then together?
> You have a simple choice.
> Rehome one of them or keep them separately.
> Otherwise that female is going to die very prematurely.



ok, thank you for your answer.

Probably you didn't read my last message?

I think you are allowed to breed reptiles in Austria as a private person, but you are not allowed to sell them. I can not explain it better to you, because I have never had interest for it. And - why would I write lies here, what would it bring to me?  

--- I did check it for you, you have to ask a permit for it: 





Haltung und Zucht von Wildtieren (Exoten) Meldung


Wildtiere, die im Sinne des Österreichischen Tierschutzgesetzes besondere Ansprüche an die Haltung stellen, dürfen nur aufgrund einer Anzeige bei der Behörde gehalten werden.




www.wien.gv.at





Well, I think this kind of messages do not encourage people to write here and look for the needed help or just to share the "good and bad days" with your reptiles. I understand, that you are mad at me, I am also, and I think it is enough, that I am - I think you are there to help in this situation if you write back, and not to make it worse by cursing at me?


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

An odd situation that you can breed but not sell! 
In any case, please, separate them.
I'm certainly not mad at you!
I suspect that you bought two pretty looking snakes, and through a lack of research/understanding kept them together. 
It is what it is!
There is no point having a go. From reading your posts you are a genuinely concerned keeper trying to do right by your pets.
It's a very simple problem to rectify. Separate them.
Corns are tough and hardy, if the cost of a second viv is a problem, a decent sized secure plastic box will do for a while with a heat mat on a thermostat.
Please don't take offence from my first reply. I have been keeping herps for a very long time and have a blunt, upfront approach. I dont flower up my posts, I will say it as it is. It's no reflection on you.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Tanja said:


> Hi to everyone!
> 
> I have 2 corn snakes, both 6 years old. Female and male. The Female lays eggs twice a year. Her record ist 39....
> 
> ...


Braking this down... you have two snakes that have been housed together for some time, presumably up to six years, but certainly for at lease a couple seeing that the female became egg bound a "couple" of years back, and you allow her to double clutch (probably got no choice as the male will mate as soon as the female recovers) each year even after having a vet palpate a stuck egg from her two years pervious. And none of the eggs are allowed to hatch, you shake them and dispose of them.... So if there is no need to breed them, and this has been going on for some time why keep them together... Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have separated them years ago to stop this happening. 

Now the snake is showing signs of heath issue as a result - C'mon it's not as if we live in the dark ages and its impossible to find a care sheet on how to keep these snakes and the likely hood of them mating if kept together. Even if you got them as a pair of females and it soon proved that one was indeed male, then that would have been the moment you separated them and housed them individually, or gave one away as you can't sell them, not years later. 

Yes you are getting a hostile reception form people here... that's because we are passionate about reptiles and it is upsetting to read your posts, which in some ways is animal abuse, breeding the poor thing to the point where its health is suffering. I am thankful you have posed here... at least now we've educated you that what you are doing is wrong and what's needed to rectify the situation, provided of cause that the prognosis form the vet is that the lump is treatable and the snake isn't at the stage where it needs putting to sleep. If the snake is able to live a long and otherwise healthy life then let it do so in its own vivarium and never pair it with a male again.

[/rant]


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

Dont be too concerned that the female doesn’t climb, not all corns do, and she may not be of suitable physical condition to do so.

I believe that it is very tricky to get corns to lose weight, so best to avoid fatty meals (rats) and frequent feeding.

The other issue with obesity, is it can cause complications with egg laying.

If blood came out with the egg palpated by the vet, then possibility of scarring, which could also cause further complications with future laying.

I would really encourage you to find alternative housing to prevent them mating 🤞

Back in the 1990s, I had two corn snakes, and unfortunately allowed the female to become obese. She had fatty deposits mainly around her rear section towards the cloaca.
I took a photo and shared it with a local herp society, and they confirmed what the issue was, and how it had occurred.

She also went to the vets after becoming egg bound. They gave her an x-ray and followed with calcium injections, and she passed the 3 remaining eggs. I don’t recall the vets commenting much about the obesity, but they weren’t a exotic specialist vet.

She made a full recovery, but I don’t know her life expectancy.

I gave the snakes and their vivs to a friend of the family. He tried breeding them again (unsuccessfully) and then sold them on but I didn’t find out for a few years and don’t know what happened long term 🙁


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

Swindinian said:


> I believe that it is very tricky to get corns to lose weight, so best to avoid fatty meals (rats) and frequent feeding.
> 
> The other issue with obesity, is it can cause complications with egg laying.


I think, in this case, it's not a case of obesity. The snake has been repeatedly bred from a very young age and now her body has suffered. The OP really should have separated them after first breeding.


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

Without photos or weight records, we are all making assumptions on the OP’s behalf.

But re-reading the posts, it sounds to me like the female is overweight. And potentially may have some reproductive complications to manage.

Just like so many facebook groups, people seem well versed with correcting others. It takes not much more effort to educate and encourage rather than shaming and accusing others for wrong doing.

I can envisage a scenario where a keeper could easily be led to believe they were allowing natural behaviour and breeding cycles to run their course.
Some keepers even breed their animals because laying infertile perceived as more risky than fertile clutches.

This OP is laying out their concerns and sharing information. The fact that they are seeking guidance is a positive step in a better direction.

I agree and support that the corns should be separated. 
I don’t support the harsh critiques however. 
I see this as doing as much harm with unintended consequences.

If we could temper our frustration, and remain constructive, this could be a much more productive for the OP, the Forum, and potential new members.

Do we want to help, or hinder?


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

None of my Corn snakes have made use of the branches in their vivs yet every Royal Python I’ve ever had absolutely loved climbing in the evenings 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Swindinian said:


> Without photos or weight records, we are all making assumptions on the OP’s behalf.
> 
> But re-reading the posts, it sounds to me like the female is overweight. And potentially may have some reproductive complications to manage.
> 
> ...


Shows who had a soft upbringing then... Sometimes being blunt and to the point has more of an impact than being namby pamby and skirting around the subject. We are all at risk of being shamed for things we may or may not do when we post things on a public forum especially those posts that clearly question why things were not changed or put in place long ago. Co-habiting has been discussed for decades and the major reason cited against it is unwanted litters or clutches.... What makes this even harder to understand is that the OP states that they never incubate the eggs and bins them... so why continue to co-habit and double clutch the female year after year... it makes no sense.

In 36 years of keeping / breeding snakes I've never had an instance where a female snake laid a clutch of infertile eggs when never paired, and never felt the need to breed them thinking it was better for their heath putting them through the stresses a breeding cycle puts on them than keeping them housed separate year on year to rest .

I accept your viewpoint, and this being a public forum I respect your opinion. But equally I stand by my comments how ever harsh they may seem or were delivered


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## frogeyed (Nov 8, 2012)

Malc said:


> Shows who had a soft upbringing then... Sometimes being blunt and to the point has more of an impact than being namby pamby and skirting around the subject. We are all at risk of being shamed for things we may or may not do when we post things on a public forum especially those posts that clearly question why things were not changed or put in place long ago. Co-habiting has been discussed for decades and the major reason cited against it is unwanted litters or clutches.... What makes this even harder to understand is that the OP states that they never incubate the eggs and bins them... so why continue to co-habit and double clutch the female year after year... it makes no sense.
> 
> In 36 years of keeping / breeding snakes I've never had an instance where a female snake laid a clutch of infertile eggs when never paired, and never felt the need to breed them thinking it was better for their heath putting them through the stresses a breeding cycle puts on them than keeping them housed separate year on year to rest .
> 
> I accept your viewpoint, and this being a public forum I respect your opinion. But equally I stand by my comments how ever harsh they may seem or were delivered


If some of you take the trouble to read the posts thoroughly, instead of banging the gums with " in all my 36 years ", or I've been keeping snakes for xxx years, you will have noticed that the OP was told on many occasions, by a previous vet, by the pet shop/ breeder and by other " Professionals" that keeping the two together was the correct and best way to go. 
It was only when they realized that maybe things weren't exactly as told they would be he turned to others for " HELP"
Until you wear the shoes of the OP and live in his country, a little understanding of different ways may go a long way in helping, instead of banging the "xxx years of experience" drum.


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## Jibbajabba (Jan 31, 2011)

frogeyed said:


> you will have noticed that the OP was told on many occasions, by a previous vet, by the pet shop/ breeder and by other " Professionals" that keeping the two together was the correct and best way to go.


Struggle to believe that if I am honest.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

frogeyed said:


> If some of you take the trouble to read the posts thoroughly, instead of banging the gums with " in all my 36 years ", or I've been keeping snakes for xxx years, you will have noticed that the OP was told on many occasions, by a previous vet, by the pet shop/ breeder and by other " Professionals" that keeping the two together was the correct and best way to go.
> It was only when they realized that maybe things weren't exactly as told they would be he turned to others for " HELP"
> Until you wear the shoes of the OP and live in his country, a little understanding of different ways may go a long way in helping, instead of banging the "xxx years of experience" drum.


Just what experience do you have?? As you haven't actually offered any advice other than slag off everyone who has 😂
Regardless of where you live in the world, there's this little technological development called the "internet".
It's amazing, you can find answers to literally any question.


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

@Malc Same here, never had a known female just to lay eggs. I've never bred snakes and have no plans to, but definitely had both sexes of corns. Unfortunately, so many snakes are not going to be reaching their full life expectancy due to people not learning enough or dealing with mistakes ASAP. As they say, once is a mistake, twice is a decision.


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

Jibbajabba said:


> Struggle to believe that if I am honest.


Glad I'm not the only one wondering about that.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

frogeyed said:


> you will have noticed that the OP was told on many occasions, by a previous vet, by the pet shop/ breeder and by other " Professionals" that keeping the two together was the correct and best way to go.


C'mon If that was the case it would be widely adopted by all of us..... and would have been common place in the 36 years I've been in this "game" 😉 



Jibbajabba said:


> Struggle to believe that if I am honest.


Same here.... especially given the regulations in the OP's country


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

ian14 said:


> Just what experience do you have?? As you haven't actually offered any advice other than slag off everyone who has 😂
> Regardless of where you live in the world, there's this little technological development called the "internet".
> It's amazing, you can find answers to literally any question.


Couldn't have said it better Ian....


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

Malc said:


> Shows who had a soft upbringing then... Sometimes being blunt and to the point has more of an impact than being namby pamby and skirting around the subject. We are all at risk of being shamed for things we may or may not do when we post things on a public forum especially those posts that clearly question why things were not changed or put in place long ago. Co-habiting has been discussed for decades and the major reason cited against it is unwanted litters or clutches.... What makes this even harder to understand is that the OP states that they never incubate the eggs and bins them... so why continue to co-habit and double clutch the female year after year... it makes no sense.
> 
> In 36 years of keeping / breeding snakes I've never had an instance where a female snake laid a clutch of infertile eggs when never paired, and never felt the need to breed them thinking it was better for their heath putting them through the stresses a breeding cycle puts on them than keeping them housed separate year on year to rest .
> 
> I accept your viewpoint, and this being a public forum I respect your opinion. But equally I stand by my comments how ever harsh they may seem or were delivered


Malc, 
Being blunt and to the point is no bad thing. Neither is compassion. Those are not mutually exclusive.
Interesting that you raise the topic of upbringing 🤔 

Lets take a different tack. . . . . 

This all depends on what your motivation is for your involvement. 

If part of your reason for investing your time and energies in RFUK is to share and educate, then the point I was trying to make was there are unintended consequences of ‘punishing‘ language directed towards less experienced members.

You have contributed hugely and helped a great many fellow keepers. There has also been a fair amount of flaming, including by yourself.

I would reason, with your 36 years experience in herpetoculture, and consistently committed involvement in the forum, you are in a position of power and influence, whether you are aware of it or not.

I would encourage you to research subject matter on educating and influencing others. I’ve not done you the courtesy of looking it up myself, but I would be pretty confident that ‘shaming ‘ and reacting ‘incredulously‘ to what is presented is not up there in the top 5 recommendations for helping.

I see the issue as whether we as a forum can ‘bring people along‘ or continue to ‘shut them down’.

Is it more important to ‘be correct’ (maintain a sense of self righteousness) or to better the husbandry standards of other keepers?

If other new members are being heavily flamed, I really question whether this will help the welfare of the animals in their care.

Seeking a paradigm shift 😊

Andy


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## Tanja (Aug 9, 2021)

Hello, it’s me again.

Lissy was at Vet Med Uni Vienna, where she was checked by our reptile specialist doctor. They also took an x-ray and ultrasound. 
The ultrasound specialist is very experienced, but in the case of Lissy, she didn’t know what it was what she saw there.

We have now an appointment for a small surgery with a very short full anesthesia. A extremely tiny piece will be cut out, and put under the microscope. Without this procedure we will not be able to know what she has and how we can help her.

I hope so much, that we would then finally be able to help her in a correct way.

- Lissy and Tanja


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

@Swindinian - Fair comment... I personally wouldn't say I have position of power, far from it... I can be blunt and possibly rude, especially if things anger me when the subject could so easily be avoided. Some posts seem to push my buttons more than others... But equally on such post in the pasts I've manned up and apologised, and this occasion, seeing the lengths the OP is going to to resolve the issue with the snake, then I would tender that olive branch and offer them my apologies for "flaming and shaming". 

The reference to the generation was for those who are old enough to remember a time where kids had respect for the police, and their parents and were in full knowledge that if they did something wrong would get a clip round the ear form the local bobby or worse from their parents... probably could have left that out, but its done now !

@Tanja - My apologies for being so blunt and ranting. Hope the biopsy provides the vets with the answers they seek, and the prognosis is good.


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## Tanja (Aug 9, 2021)

Hello everybody!

I’m writing here again because of Lissy - and I want to thank you all for your answers and the experiences & support that were shared and kindly written 💚
It’s true, when people don’t stay polite and accurate, it leaves one behind with a feeling of unwelcomeness.

About Lissy. We got the results of the biopsy. She has a Benign Tumor (a non-cancerous tumor), at the moment it spreads from the Cloaca to the lower end of the lungs. The fat-cells have started to grow, they are now about 7mm big. Perhaps I should start a new discussion about this topic, if there would be people, who have experience with this, or a vet, who knows more about it.

Here is a photo of Lissy – I took the plaster off the stitches yesterday. She was chilling on my lap for about 15 minutes, so I had time to take a photo of her. One can see some of the stiches in the place, where she goes over herself. The dark color is from the substrate, stuck to where the plaster was (glue rests). I will later on post updates here about how we will continue with the treatment/what possibilities there are and so on.

But – what was very interesting: 2 days after the biopsy she climbed around the vivarium for the first time since a year (or more?)!

- Tanja and Lissy


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## Tanja (Aug 9, 2021)

Here is the answer from our vet: We are not going to do anything for Lissy now - as long as she is feeling good, she is active and not limited with her life quality. Removing the tumor would make her worse, because there are some blood vessels and nerves from the muscles inside it.

So, I hope Lissy is going to have a good, long life, and if we are very lucky, the tumor will stop growing.

- Tanja and Lissy


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