# Should buying reptiles be harder?



## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

There's been a lot of posts here the last few days that touch on the issue of reptile care (or lack of it), also about animals in poor conditions in pet shops etc.

Also I think in the reptile community there is a growing feeling of if we don't do something to give a more positive image.

So one of the options would be to make it harder to buy a reptile, I don't mean simply by making it more expensive (though I would think the amount of expensive to buy reptiles that are treated bad is a lot lower than your £40 iguanas etc).

For me, one of the most obvious thing is a "cooling off period". I know some shops have this, but it isn't by law. To stop the spur of the moment buys this would work, you pay your deposite, pick your animal and come back next week to collect it.

This would bring about some positives (in my opinion of course).
1) the person who decides the Iguana would be a cool way to spend the last £40 of his wages may not have that money or inclination next week.

2) the time between paying your deposit and collecting the animal may encourage people to do some research on the animal, either resulting in them not buying it or getting the right enviroment together ready for it.

However the downside to this system is simple, why shouldn't a good reptile keeper be allowed to buy something spur of the moment? They no doubt already have a good idea how to look after the animal and all the needed set up at home.

Also while a waiting period may be able to be enforced in pet shops it would be harder to enforce with breeders in mind.

What would your (realistic) suggestions be on a law or guidelines for reptile stores/sellers?


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Any shop worth its salt is ALREADYmaking it difficult to buy on the spur of the moment. i know mark at ameyzoo wont usually sell an animal to those he doesnt know without grilling them. which is very responsible. its usually dog shit garden centres that indiscriminately sell to any tom dick and harry.


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

excellent idea!! lets all get together and see how we can help the antis do their job more efficiently!
regards gaz


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

you have a really good point there, in falconry there bringing in something called a lantra awaerd (i got mine  ) in a few years you will have to prove you have the award to be able to purchase a BoP.
i think something like this would be a good idea for reps, except instead of doing a course as this will put many people off, perhaps just fill in an online form created to ask the potential buyer all the basics, if you pass they can then send you a YOU PASSED certificate in the post or over email. this would mean people would have to do there research in order to buy the rep in the first place, and if the animal is being treated badly the owner cant really say "sorry i didnt know they needed it"

however there would have to be a few different shops seeing as the care of one rep is very different to the others. but im sure these could be worked out easy enough - basic snake care, care of big snakes, gecko care etc... 

just a thought


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## SnuffBunny (Jan 23, 2008)

I dont know if anyone would agree with me on this, and i dont know how it would be worked and what not, but i think before someone purchases any animal! Not just reps! 
They should be made to prove their knowledge(sp?) of the animal they are purchasing, be this done through a website where you fill out a questionair/do a test about basic requirements for the animal, housing, feeding etc. 
(For a price, not to expensive just enough to fund the site or something)

Basically if you pass/know enough you get a certificate and you keep that, almost like a licence so you can keep and buy that spieces of animal.
Show it to Breeders/shops when purchasing.

Sounds like a long shot im sure but in my head it makes sense lol. Thinking about it now tho, there are alot of holes in it. Ooops.:blush:

Oh...yea as the bendigo above me said. lol


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

personally ive never like the system weve got, especially when in respect to large snakes and monitors, any brain dead numpty can go out and buy a nile or a 'conda to impress his mates, not exactly ideal, but what can you do?

By clamping on the small penis brigade, you also clamp down on the genuine people with an interest


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## PsyKoViggy (Jan 6, 2008)

I think there should be more regulations when it comes to buying.. but i don't think upping the price is the right way of doing it.. rich people can have no knowledge and poorer people can do research, its unfair to make it a simply financial issue.
The waiting a week before buying thing sounds good, but for that week (or 2) they should be given a detaled care sheet and when they come back to the shop they should state what equipment they have, what they still need and will be buying that day with the reptile and should be able to answer basic questions on temps and diet and such..

should be more about making sure people who how to look after their animal, and less about simply trying to put everyone off..

this should probably go for any animal.. to be honest.. 

might seem a bit over the top but at least then, if there is cruelty people can defend themselves with 'oh, but i didn't know'


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## SnuffBunny (Jan 23, 2008)

It should be done for every animal, yea definatly!


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

gaz said:


> excellent idea!! lets all get together and see how we can help the antis do their job more efficiently!
> regards gaz


I don't even know what you're implying there :lol2:



> By clamping on the small penis brigade, you also clamp down on the genuine people with an interest


but isn't it a lesser of two evils? I don't mind waiting a week or whatever, infact if you're making a commitment to the animal for it's life, a week makes little difference.

At the moment I am guessing that there is no specific paper work for a pet shop to sell reptiles, this would be another obvious place to start, as often the shops start the downward spiral of the animals.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

All animals should have the correct questions asked before you purchase the animal - as it stands, buying a reptile is usually harder than buying a cat / dog, yet how many cats / dogs get dumped compared to the amount of reptiles?

I don't think that a reptile is harder to look after or more commitment than a cat / dog - a lot less in fact, yet if I go into town to the indoor market in season, I can see kittens and puppies and pay £50. This has been going on for decades.. even with the tightening of restrictions on pet shops who can sell kittens/puppies it still happens. The selling of cats/dogs clearly isn't in control from the hundreds of thousands of animals that are put down each year because of irresponsible breeding/owning..... so really, is the reptile issue that big a one in comparison?

You hear a lot of reports on here, because this is a specialist community. If you go to another forum and say, how many reptiles are badly treated / irresponsibly bought / dumped, people are going to say, very few.. and the national statistics say very few too.

I'm going off on a tangent a bit, I do think that responsible selling is an absolute must, as is responsible buying (it goes both ways..) but the chances of legally implementing a system to encourage responsible buying/selling in reptiles, when the irresponsible buying/selling of other animals costs the country a lot more, is unlikely. The old animal welfare problems haven't even been addressed.. the chances of them correctly addressing the new ones cropping up are slim to none.

I'm actually getting tired of refusing sales to customers I don't believe are responsible enough or actually know what they're doing... almost exclusively in the 16-21 age range and male... or drunks/stoners... and I get a load of abuse for saying no, usually verbal, but sometimes even physical/threatening because of trying to sell responsibly. I think any decent reptile shop already makes judgement calls really and never get thanks in return for it!


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

I agree, that animal welfare in this country is far poorer than the nation of animal lovers title we have suggests.

I mention reptiles specifically because well it's a reptile forum and also with the RSPCA wanting to pain us as cruel and useless I wanted to see what we thought about measures that should be put in place.

I have an African Gray, and she was expensive (she was for me at least) and before I got her home I spent at least one day every week at the breeders house, getting the know all the birds there, getting educated on what's best for the animal etc. This was of course a perfect senario and not possible the majority of the time, but the people I bought from were so interested in the animals that the money they would gain was far less of an issue. They often refused people birds because they did not feel they were the right person.


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## SnuffBunny (Jan 23, 2008)

It's a shame that alot of people are just in it for the money or the shifting of the animals.
I know not all are tho, so i dont mean to cause offense.


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## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

I think a cooling period would be a good idea, but the problem comes from the people who are purely in it for the money. As captaincaveman said, I find it very worrying that anyone can go out and buy a retic or a rock python and some of the large monitors...imagine if one such animal owned by a moron gets its mouth round a small child.....

I'm sure many of the shop owners that care about their animals do already grill people and turn people away. But I also know of many that don't and will sell to anyone...

I quite like the whole licensing thing like they have in Aus, and I would happily pay a license fee for my animals if it prevents some numpty goin out and buyin an animal that will ultimatly be neglected and possibly die. But then many people do not like that idea. 

At the end of the day its hard to please everyone...

: victory:


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

underdog said:


> I don't even know what you're implying there :lol2:
> 
> 
> all restriction/licensing leads towards banning,its happened time and time again,so restricting ourselves is akin to shooting yourself in the foot,it simply makes the job of the antis so much simpler,they dont give a toss whether or not we show ourselves to be responsible etc they will just use any restrictions placed on us by government or ourselves to do the job they want done,besides which licensing generally hits the law abiding,whilst the unlawful simply ignore it all.
> regards gaz


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

I quite like the whole licensing thing like they have in Aus, and I would happily pay a license fee for my animals if it prevents some numpty goin out and buyin an animal that will ultimatly be neglected and possibly die. But then many people do not like that idea. 

At the end of the day its hard to please everyone...

: victory:[/quote]

the Aussie licensing system is routinely used to sieze legally held collections and to harrass keepers and breeders alike,is that really the system you want in place?
regards gaz


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

gaz said:


> underdog said:
> 
> 
> > I don't even know what you're implying there :lol2:
> ...


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

: victory:[/quote]

the Aussie licensing system is routinely used to sieze legally held collections and to harrass keepers and breeders alike,is that really the system you want in place?
regards gaz[/quote]

in what way do they use the liscence to legally seize animals legally owned.. sorry im a tad confused...

:blush:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

By self imposing restrictions upon the sales of animals all you will do is drive people towards more unscrupulous sellers, who won't give a crap about the animals or who buys them. There is no 100% foolproof way of ensuring the buyer has the best interests of the animal at heart or is in a position to give the animal what it needs. There have been several posts on this forum from keepers who aren't keeping heir animals in a fit manner and also the "my so-and-so lizard/snake is arriving tomorrow, what do I need to keep it in?" posts. If one petshop grills its customers about the animal they want and insists on a cooling off period, you can bet your arse the one along the road won't, and the people least suitable to have the animal will go where fewest questions are asked.


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

sparkle said:


> in what way do they use the liscence to legally seize animals legally owned.. sorry im a tad confused...
> 
> :blush:


Well they know where you live for a start ! There will also be all sorts of standards that you will have to comply to, any of them broken they can easiy take the reptiles away.

Austrralia are very strict on what you can keep and what you cannot. Due to the climates etc many of teh snakes, spiders & lizards for example are able to live anywhere and if any of them are released its can upset the entire eco-system in an area


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

its really something that needs self regulating from within, but that will never happen, ive been to plenty of shops where ive heard them turn people away for the right reasons, but for every good shop, there are poor shops that will sell anything to anyone if they want the money and thats without going into the private breeders and classifieds

My gut instinct says that certain species will eventually be banned or licensed in the future which are free to trade at the moment, i can see afrock, burms, retics and scrubs being under another system(whatever that may be), like i say thats just my gut instinct on the future of the hobby


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

Yep self regulation is the way forward I've decided myself. Any licencing is just going to lead to bad things for this hobby, and probably many unwanted reptiles that will never be rehoused with zoos etc...

Edcucation is a big key for me. People need educating in how to keep these animals just as people need educating on keeping certain species of dogs or birds. Problem being there are unscrupulus shops that will sell stuff just because they can make some money out of it, same goes with certain breeders as well i'd imagine.

At the minute you can sell any animal with a pet shop licence I believe (not sure on dogs/cats?), why don't we expand the pet shop licence so they need to apply to be able to sell reptiles thus imposing extra checks ? Its can't be set up willy nilly then... not sure on teh pros and cons on that ?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

You took the words out of my mouth....an extra license that allows a pet shop to keep exotics, conditions being imposed dependent upon anaimals wishing to be sold. Although that doesn't rule out unscrupulous breeders and back street sellers.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

welshgaz said:


> At the minute you can sell any animal with a pet shop licence I believe (not sure on dogs/cats?), why don't we expand the pet shop licence so they need to apply to be able to sell reptiles thus imposing extra checks ? Its can't be set up willy nilly then... not sure on teh pros and cons on that ?


It's not strictly true. The pet shop license specifies animal groups and quantities. My license allows me to sell lizards, snakes, amphibians and tortoises.. each is a seperate category. If I brought a hamster or a goldfish into the shop and put it for sale I could lose my license. 

If I want to add new animals to my license (whether its to increase the quantity of the animal allowed, or add a new type of animal..) I have to apply in writing, and then get a visit from the vet inspector, and then receive an amended copy of my license.

So shops cant just decide well, we sell hamsters and fish, we can sell reptiles i'll get those in tomorrow.. they do have to be inspected for suitable enclosures and then given a maximum quantity based on the enclosures they have set up, and get the okay from the council.


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

welshgaz said:


> At the minute you can sell any animal with a pet shop licence I believe (not sure on dogs/cats?), why don't we expand the pet shop licence so they need to apply to be able to sell reptiles thus imposing extra checks ? Its can't be set up willy nilly then... not sure on teh pros and cons on that ?


That has to be a good starting point, even if meant that it added a couple of £ to the cost of good healthy reptiles it has to be worth it.

Like has been pointed out in this thread, there's 2 areas where it all falls to pieces, the sellers and the buyers. I would think keeping an eye on the sellers would be far easier, and a good place to start.

If there was a specific license that had to be obtained before setting up shop then it would mean a lot less of the garden centre reptile sales, and a lot of the poor pet shops that branch out into reptiles for the money would't bother.

If this license could only be obtained by completing a husbandry course or a simple test, then at least there would be some feeling that the shop has a basic idea on how to keep healthy reptiles.

Of course this would all cos money, and to keep this running you would need regular inspections by some group to ensure the conditions of the agreement are upheld.

If the result of this was the majority of reptile shops selling healthy and well looked after animals, then with a bit of luck they would be the same shops that at the moment make sure buyers know what they are getting when they buy an animal. It would have a domino effect, in a positive way.

More effort needed to sell reptiles > better trained staff > better animals > better information to the buyers > better informed buyers > butter life for the animals.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

underdog said:


> If this license could only be obtained by completing a husbandry course or a simple test, then at least there would be some feeling that the shop has a basic idea on how to keep healthy reptiles.


A qualification is required, a pet shop licensee has to get the Pet Shop Management qualification run by the Pet Care Trust. It's long, it's boring, it goes into loads of horrible details about cats/dogs/responsible selling o mammals, mammal and rodent diseases, correct husbandry, display, licensing, health and safety.... costs about £300 to get, 2 exams and a load of work....

and it has 2 pages on reptiles :whip:

So, there is quite an extensive husbandry course, unfortunately it's not reptile specific and I do think the reptile section of it needs to be expanded quite a lot, because to be honest, I am never going to sell rodents/cats/dogs/fish but have to memorise a lot of what for me is junk, to get the license...


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

well this seams to fit :2wallbang:


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

Athravan said:


> A qualification is required, a pet shop licensee has to get the Pet Shop Management qualification run by the Pet Care Trust. It's long, it's boring, it goes into loads of horrible details about cats/dogs/responsible selling o mammals, mammal and rodent diseases, correct husbandry, display, licensing, health and safety.... costs about £300 to get, 2 exams and a load of work....
> 
> and it has 2 pages on reptiles :whip:
> 
> So, there is quite an extensive husbandry course, unfortunately it's not reptile specific and I do think the reptile section of it needs to be expanded quite a lot, because to be honest, I am never going to sell rodents/cats/dogs/fish but have to memorise a lot of what for me is junk, to get the license...


Sorry, what I am suggesting is aimed at reptiles specific:lol2:

So if you had a pet shop selling rabbits and rats and suddenly decided you wanted to sell some cute scaley reptiles you would have to get a whole new license that would involve you spending a little money and a fair bit of time learning how to house and look after these animals BEFORE you could start selling them. Also maybe an inspection of the premsesis where you show what would be housed and where etc.

EDIT : maybe even specific sections for certain reptiles, because keeping a BD has little in common with keeping an Iguana or Monitor.


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

Well whatever is done (if anything) we need to make sure that it doesn't effect the local keeper or breeder...


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

welshgaz said:


> Well whatever is done (if anything) we need to make sure that it doesn't effect the local keeper or breeder...


I agree, the trouble is the best way to make a sensible and good keeper is by going through the seller, but I would hope a lot of small time breeders always have one eye on the animals future and do their best to vet potential buyers.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Only large constrictors or hots thats it ..most people who buy reptiles are not just after a "GOLD CHAIN" they actually prefer reptiles over dogs hampsters etc etc 

why the hell do people want to stop people having what they want? its getting rediculous on here ,ban this stop people buying that blah blah blah 

:crazy:


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Is it defo the case that every council asks for you to have the Pet Shop Management qualification run by the Pet Care Trust?


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## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

SteveL said:


> Only large constrictors or hots thats it ..most people who buy reptiles are not just after a "GOLD CHAIN" they actually prefer reptiles over dogs hampsters etc etc
> 
> why the hell do people want to stop people having what they want? its getting rediculous on here ,ban this stop people buying that blah blah blah
> 
> :crazy:


I think it has soemthing to do with the negative view on the amount [be it large or small] of reptiles that are being kept badly or ending up as unwanted rescues.
Soem peopel notice it more and have more accelerated views on it than others obviously.


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

SteveL said:


> Only large constrictors or hots thats it ..most people who buy reptiles are not just after a "GOLD CHAIN" they actually prefer reptiles over dogs hampsters etc etc
> 
> why the hell do people want to stop people having what they want? its getting rediculous on here ,ban this stop people buying that blah blah blah
> 
> :crazy:


I don't want to ban anyone from having anything, I was merely interested in suggestions as to what could be done to help animals in all this, and in turn give the hobby a better name.

I'd be quite happy for someone to own a CB Komodo providing they could provide a good life for it.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

DeanThorpe said:


> I think it has soemthing to do with the negative view on the amount [be it large or small] of reptiles that are being kept badly or ending up as unwanted rescues.
> Soem peopel notice it more and have more accelerated views on it than others obviously.


The more people who buy reptiles the more there will be small problems with a MINORITY of reptiles, its exactly the same with dogs and cats .BUT theres a damn site more dogs and cats being PTS daily than there are reptiles !

i here no call for dogs and cats to be regulated as much as the crap i here about snakes/lizards etc etc


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

DeanThorpe said:


> Is it defo the case that every council asks for you to have the Pet Shop Management qualification run by the Pet Care Trust?


Everyone I've spoken to has it set by the council but of course, as there are no UK wide requirements it's quite possible that some councils have not updated their qualifications yet.

Interestingly my application says "or similar vocational qualification", so I expect that if you are a reptile only shop you could use any of the reptile based qualifications in replacement of pet store management.


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

SteveL said:


> i here no call for dogs and cats to be regulated as much as the crap i here about snakes/lizards etc etc


I think you have taken what I asked the wrong way. As an animal lover I think we should always do our best to improve their lives, just because it's acceptable for people to leave dogs and cats get put to sleep as they are not wanted, doesn't mean we should accept this for reptiles, (or dogs and cats)

If the situation could be made better for reptiles (or rats or whatever animal you chose to care about) then do you not think humans should put a little effort in to do this? After all they give us a lot of enjoyment.

If this was a dog forum I would posting a similar question about dog breeders/owners


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

underdog said:


> I'd be quite happy for someone to own a CB Komodo providing they could provide a good life for it.
> 
> If the situation could be made better for reptiles (or rats or whatever animal you chose to care about) then do you not think humans should put a little effort in to do this? After all they give us a lot of enjoyment.


firstly 
Most keepers i know put a whole LOT of effort into there hobby ..


MOST people who own such animals DO have the facilities to cater for them properly .this thread is more of the same IMO sorry but no offence to you mate .we dont need this! we need threads where people are offering there help for newbies for education and other related things ...........rather than trying to implement changes in the wrong direction:bash: .
Not more limitation threads calling for making it harder to obtain things !

We need more people who can help people with there new purchases such as free care sheets and proof of correct husbandry techniques before they are allowed to purchase any animals 
it would be great to see the clubs organising local get togethers where you can have a mentor to talk you through particular things that are required BEFORE people take on any animal especially large constrictors this already happens with DWA animals i would like to see this happen with big boids and harder to care for animals 

Dont try to make things harder as that can only put people off the hobby in the long run .make it fun not a nightmare of paperwork for people ,that is not the way to go 

sorry for my waffle


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

SteveL said:


> firstly
> Most keepers i know put a whole LOT of effort into there hobby ..
> 
> 
> ...


No offence taken at all.

I just feel that someone buying a reptile from somewhere that is already half dead is going to be far more off putting than having to wait 5 days before you get your new pet.

I think this site is brilliant at offering advice to newbies (and old timers), I posted this is in the genral herp chat bit and not the help section:lol2:

This thread is nothing more than me thinking out loud if you will, and most of the impact of what was suggested would be on shops and would have a positive effect on buyers.

It could mean the difference between someone new to the hobby being clueless and buying a baby iggy and being told it will live in a medium glass tank all it's life or being educated into buying something they have the time and space for and would be able to keep for it's whole life.

But agaia, all IMO.


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## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

the only question i have been asked befor buying a snake is..."do you know their requirments" i say yes and ta da! its in a bag at the counter, i like it like that though as im really shy and would feel really under pressure answering questions, i would know the answers but under pressure im sure id panic and mess up lol


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

weelad said:


> the only question i have been asked befor buying a snake is..."do you know their requirments" i say yes and ta da! its in a bag at the counter, i like it like that though as im really shy and would feel really under pressure answering questions, i would know the answers but under pressure im sure id panic and mess up lol


I don't think buyers should do a test or answer questions, I think the sellers should have to do this in order to be allowed to keep and sell the animals. Then you go in and pay your deposite and go off with a good handout that gives good clear guidelines on how to care for the animal. then come back in 3 days or 5 or whatever and collect, if you still feel you can look after it.


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## weelad (Jul 25, 2006)

underdog said:


> I don't think buyers should do a test or answer questions, I think the sellers should have to do this in order to be allowed to keep and sell the animals. Then you go in and pay your deposite and go off with a good handout that gives good clear guidelines on how to care for the animal. then come back in 3 days or 5 or whatever and collect, if you still feel you can look after it.


sounds fair enough to me , bit of a pain if you have to travel for a decent shop for them to give caresheets and say come back in a few days though


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## underdog (Mar 11, 2008)

weelad said:


> sounds fair enough to me , bit of a pain if you have to travel for a decent shop for them to give caresheets and say come back in a few days though


I guess so, but if the shop was decent they would want to know the animal was going to be ok. I know a local reptile shop that operates like this, of course if you are a regular or someone they know has reptiles they don't enforce it so harsh. 

Though any time I have bought a reptile I have always paid in full and collect a couple of days later by choice. It gives me time to get everything set up etc.


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