# Hand-raising Pinky and the Brain! (mice)



## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

As of yesterday I started a project of hand raising two - 7 day old mice, Pinky - a red eyed white doe (though I think she might be having dark points starting to show though on the rump and nose) and Brain - a black eyed splashed buck. 

The litter would have been culled down anyway so I figured why not give hand-raising a try. 

It took them several feeds to get the hang of suckling on a paintbrush. The feed I am using is Lactol diluted to twice the amount that you would feed a puppy/kitten with about 10% of electrolyte water added. 

So far its going well, Pinky is far more energetic than Brain, and both are becoming increasingly clingy to me. They are in a small pet carrier with a heat-mat under it keeping them about 27-28'c, and will be moved into a bigger once they open their eyes and start eating. 

My only problems have been I'm not sure how much they are eating, when to stop at times and that they don't poop very often, despite good tummy/gentile rubs after each feed. 

I plan to weigh them latter today so I can work out how much they should be eating (its supposed to be 0.05cc per gram of mouse) 

They are feeding every 2 hours, and it takes about 20-30 min to feed them each time (its really a labour of love!) 

I will get the fiancée to take photos of me feeding them later today as well, but for now heres a photo I took as the start yesterday. 
I will keep you posted on their development.


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## gecko lady (Jun 26, 2010)

Good luck! i did this last year when i found a nest that was dug up by my dad and the mum abandoned them. Heres my thread where i got loads of help: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/other-pets-exotics/698391-urget-rearing-mice.html 
Unfortunaltly mine were just too young and didnt survive but i wish you the best of luck with them!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

So your subjecting these 2 baby mice to your inexperience of hand-rearing simply because you want to experiment? Maybe its just me, but I find this rather selfish & sad.


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> So your subjecting these 2 baby mice to your inexperience of hand-rearing simply because you want to experiment? Maybe its just me, but I find this rather selfish & sad.


It's either that or two of the litter would go in the freezer, its a better chance than just freezer don't you think? 

I have studied a lot into hand-rearing before I started and despite I have never attempted this before it's going well.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

morning-star said:


> It's either that or two of the litter would go in the freezer, its a better chance than just freezer don't you think?
> 
> I have studied a lot into hand-rearing before I started and despite I have never attempted this before it's going well.


Is that how you cull baby mice, just put them in the freezer?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I can understand people trying to rear orphans but not to remove them from their mother to do so just for practice!!
Im an experianced handrearer and have reared many orphans of differant species but would NEVER remove infants from their mother I find it very distasteful even if they were being culled(not that I can understand why ypu would need to cull 2 babies its not really an excess amount is it??)


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

Zoo-Man said:


> Is that how you cull baby mice, just put them in the freezer?


no, The brain is destroyed before they are put in the freezer (to be used as snake food later) I'd never kill anything by freezing. 

I cull for bigger healthier litters, as many mouse breeders do. 

Anyway this is not a discussion about culling.

The litter consisted of 12 kits, which I cut down to 8 on day 3 and then took these two a week later. (which otherwise would have been culled on day 3 like the rest) 

I still think hand raising is a better idea than dead (though obviously I don't often have a choice as hand raising is hard work) I foster over kits to other litters if I can but I have no other litters currently.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Not disputing that handrearing is better than dead, but could you not just 'top up' babies so that the female can rear the full litter and care for all the babies properly without being 'drained'??

If you are determined to carry on, then I wouldn't be mixing electrolyte solution with their milk. If they need to be rehydrated, the solution should be given *in the place of *1 milk feed, not mixed in with every feed - at least that's what I would do.

As I remember it Lactol is a powder that you mix? If I'm right be very careful with the mixing, because even the tiniest lump can cause a blockage on such a tiny critter. I always use full fat goats milk to avoid any problem with mixing and I always add pro-biotic yoghurt and ABIDEC baby vitamins to that milk.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Not sure what I think but I read this as...
There were a litter of mice that would be culled anyways for breeding reasons.
Morning star decided to keep two back instead of culling to try hand rearing.
So they would have been dead anyway.

So not selfish in the true sense of the word.
I guess one thing that could be seen as positive would be that in future if an animal needed to be hand raised at least star would have some practice.

I dont know what else to say.


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

from what I was looked into mixing a % of the electrolyte solution for the first few days help makes the change from mums milk to the lactol better. The lactol is a powder but it is diluted enough that there is not lumps in it at all. 

I uped the electrolyte to 30% or so for now, which has fixed the problem with them not pooping much. 

They are fat, still growing, not dehydrated, full of energy when feeding so I figured I must be doing ok so far.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I am not condoning taking these babies away from their mother, just for practice... Regardless if you reduce down litters or not. I used to reduce down litters when I bred mice for both snake food AND to make the remaining babies bigger/stronger... I do feel these were taken away for selfish reasons. However, I will give advice... I don't use lactol when handrearing rodents. I mix equal amounts of evaporated milk, boiled water, and live yogurt (keep the water hot and that should be about the right temp for the first feed when mixed in with the milk and yogurt) and then add in a tiny amount of honey to sweeten and a drop of ambidec baby vitamins. Use for one day and then make fresh each day. I've had very good results over a variety of species using this mix and then you don't have to worry about lumps from the lactol (plus, lactol is nasty tasting stuff *lol*).


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

for those who care:

Day three - all is going well, (not got more than 2-3 hours sleep last night but hey)

Pulled out the scales last night they weigh; 7g (Brain) and 8g (Pinky) this means they both need around 10-12 suckles on the paint brush (10-12 drops) we worked this out on the theory of;

"A baby should eat .05cc per gram of their body weight per feeding. " - the fun mouse. 

so that's about 3.5ml for them currently. 

I will weigh them each night and adjust the food as needed. 

It's soo cute that they both have individual personalities; Pinky gets very excited at feeding and is throughout the feeding session , whist after a couple of suckles Brain gets very sleepy/lazy fast. 

their belly fur is gown in nicely now and they have teeth starting to come though


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## ChazzieJo (Jun 14, 2012)

Out of curiousity, are you planning on keeping these two as pets? Seeing as you may grow an attachment?


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

yes of course,  I have a good few mice just as pets that don't get bred but make great company mice for mother of growing on mice. 

Lots of my stud boys are also wonderfully tame and spoilt with attention when not with girlys. 

I've already come quite attached to these, and they now appear to see me as 'mum' far as I can tell (the girl will pretty much jump into my hand soon as I put it near her now)


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

I managed to raise a whole litter of 6 or so from pinkies that I'd guess we're 1 day old. ( wild mice ). If I can do to you'll be fine!


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

freekygeeky said:


> I managed to raise a whole litter of 6 or so from pinkies that I'd guess we're 1 day old. ( wild mice ). If I can do to you'll be fine!


really? wow! must have taken you ages to feed/potty each time!

takes me about 15 mins for the two. : victory:


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

Photos;
Pinky: 

















Brian: 

















Still doing well if starting too look scruffy for not having a mum to clean them fully, and getting so excited/fidgety when feeding that they get feed over themselves. 

They get cleaned off with lightly damp cotton buds after each feed but there's only so much it'll do.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Try wiping them down with a cotton wool ball dipped in warm water after you've fed and toiletted them, it won't be as hard as a cotton bud.


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

feorag said:


> Try wiping them down with a cotton wool ball dipped in warm water after you've fed and toiletted them, it won't be as hard as a cotton bud.


good idea, I'll pick some up tomorrow. thanks.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That's what I used to do with my little squirrels cos they got so dirty, especially when I started adding Farley Rusks to their milk to start the weaning phase - that stuff sets like concrete! :lol2:

By the way I've just realised your little dyslexic mistake in your heading - I couldn't make sense of the brain bit, when I first saw the title, so eventually decided you'd called one Brain for some reason, but now I see the pretty coloured one is actually called Brian! :lol2:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I think it is actually supposed to be pinky and the brain.
It's a cartoon series about 2 mice, one who's really clever and his dumb mate.
They are lab mice who try to take over the world eery night!
I could sing you the theme tune Eileen but I shall save my blushes!
Lol


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

:lol2: yes, save them! :lol2:

That's what I thought at first, but it seems funny that he's called one Pinky and one Brian - unless the Brian is the typo???


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Lol....
I'm confused now.
I think Brian is the typo.
I was going down the line that the mice were called pinky and the brain.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Brian will be the typo  I'll join ya in singing the theme tune, Rach! :2thumb:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Lol....
I'm confused now.
I think Brian is the typo.
I was going down the line that the mice were called pinky and the brain.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Me too...


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

feorag said:


> :lol2: yes, save them! :lol2:
> 
> That's what I thought at first, but it seems funny that he's called one Pinky and one Brian - unless the Brian is the typo???


Brian is the typo! it's Brain! Like the show. Sorry only getting about 4 hours of broken sleep each night xD

and i'm a girl. 

gotta take a little video of pinky at feeding time shes just sooo hyper then its sooo funny (but annoying to feed as she wont keep still)


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

They are at 11 days old today, they are looking a little small/skinny compared to what normal kits should be at this age, but that's really to be expected. 

They are at the hard stage of hand-raising (11-14 days) but they are well hydrated and pee/poop often so I can only hope that they'll ok. 

Soon as their eyes open they can start having some soft foods (oats, baby cereal, rye cracker soaked in lactol etc ) and hopefully they will learn to lap up lactol so I can slow down the paintbrush feeding's. It'll be a gradual process but hopefully it'll go well.

PINKY AND THE BRAIN theme song - YouTube


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

morning-star said:


> They are at 11 days old today, *they are looking a little small/skinny compared to what normal kits should be at this age, but that's really to be expected. *
> 
> They are at the hard stage of hand-raising (11-14 days) but they are well hydrated and pee/poop often so I can only hope that they'll ok.
> 
> ...


To be expected when they have been removed from their mother to be guinea pigs. My friend Dave is the chairman of the National Fancy Mouse Club & I told him about this thread today. He was shocked & agreed that it was unnecessary & potentially very cruel.


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

and for me it's a black and white case of causing UNNESSECARY suffering.In no way comparable to attempting to save orphans.I hope no one copies the idea.


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

how are they suffering exactly ?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

123dragon said:


> how are they suffering exactly ?


Well the stress of being away from a maternal parent of the same species is cruel to start with. There was no need for this "experiment" and the mice would of been better off being euthanized for snake food.


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

I like how dead is better than saved to you guys. :bash:

You might as well cull anything orphaned, if dead its better than alive each time then. 

They are doing well, and I have no doubt they'll be able to catch up and be normal mouse size when they start eating solids, especially with care and attention I am giving them. 

Iv'e heard of people in the US and Canada, buy live pinks/ young mice from stores that would end up as snake food to hand raise them, this is basicly the same but I didn't buy them. 

Their mother is really struggling with the reaming litter as it is (more the mothers health at the minute) they've had to be put into quarantine just in-case (they do have extra foods and suppliants)....


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Saving them is one thing, but purposefully taking them from their mother is another scenario entirely.


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

Amalthea said:


> Saving them is one thing, but purposefully taking them from their mother is another scenario entirely.


well they would have been snake food, so is that not saving them?


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

No... You CHOSE to not cull those two and then you CHOSE to take them away from their mother and hand rear them. That isn't saving them. That is a little experiment that you wanted to try, regardless of the welfare of the living creatures at the heart of it. If their mother had died and you wanted to try to hand rear them, THAT would be saving them.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

As said before I have handreared many ORPHANS I have never removed a healthy baby of any species just to handrear it!
Culling is one thng but I cant get my head round this at all.......


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## morning-star (Jan 1, 2010)

Amalthea said:


> No... You CHOSE to not cull those two and then you CHOSE to take them away from their mother and hand rear them. That isn't saving them. That is a little experiment that you wanted to try, regardless of the welfare of the living creatures at the heart of it. If their mother had died and you wanted to try to hand rear them, THAT would be saving them.


So your against people who buy/take from stores to try and save a pink/fluff? (doesn't happen in the UK obviously) The store is choosing to cull them (or use them for live food), and the people are going and choosing to try and save them? The mother isn't dead or sick, she's then used to raise a % of the litter for bigger snake feed, or re-bred.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I have actually worked in a pet shop in the US and those pinkies are actually bought in bulk and are being cared for by a lactating rat, so they have already been taken away from their mother.

And it is still a completely different scenario.


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## trogdorable (Feb 4, 2011)

morning-star said:


> I like how dead is better than saved to you guys. :bash:
> 
> You might as well cull anything orphaned, if dead its better than alive each time then.
> 
> ...



tbh i dont understand what you thought peoples reactions were going to be, did you think everyone was going to praise you for "experimenting" with their lives?
i personally think what you've done is disgusting. But its done. so im glad to hear that they are infact doing ok.
in terms of their mother struggling , i agree on whats already been said about assisting in feeding some babies while they are still kept with mum.


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

morning-star said:


> well they would have been snake food, so is that not saving them?


i dont get this, you bred them as snake food (or bred them knowing some would be snake food) but randomly decided to 'save' 2 when you'd already culled some of their siblings?

i could be reading this entirely wrong, but how is that logical?


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