# Baby prob



## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Three baby geoffs born.
One on floor which is inside being reared.

One of other two on dad.
Mum always does solo for first week or so.
It was very weak and not gripping well.
It came off on shelf.

Wife inspected it.
Has club hand with one diggit.
Smaller foot on same side..

Already have decission made on path to go.
Whats others opinions.
What would you do.


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

if when its older can it climb and jump about as a normal monkey due to its arms/legs 

if not (al get shot for this) i would think pts if it cant lead a normal troop life


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## vgorst (Sep 27, 2011)

adamntitch said:


> if when its older can it climb and jump about as a normal monkey due to its arms/legs
> 
> if not (al get shot for this) i would think pts if it cant lead a normal troop life


Agreed, if it cannot lead a normal life then it's not fair on the animal. I have very little knowledge on primates but if he shows weakness/deformity would it increase bullying/aggression? If it does then he may not be able to be with his own kind, in which case he'd suffer mentally too.

What a shame for the little one


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Is it the one being HR which has the deformities?

Gotta agree with the above, I would have thought it would get bullied on re-introduction..?
Although it's hard to tell without seeing, and there's always the possibility it will strengthen and adapt - very difficult decision to make, I really don't envy you :sad:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

5plusmany said:


> Is it the one being HR which has the deformities?
> 
> Gotta agree with the above, I would have thought it would get bullied on re-introduction..?
> Although it's hard to tell without seeing, and there's always the possibility it will strengthen and adapt - very difficult decision to make, I really don't envy you :sad:


Theres 2 being reared.
The first that was on ground and the one with club hand.

How do you tell if it would get strong and adapt.
What if put to sleep and wouldve been ok.

Or if doesnt improve do you then dispatch.

Why would troop pick on.
Why would they bully.


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

If it was us ,we would give it a chance

Everything thats alive should have a chance in life

Primates are very adaptable with disabilities

But you may find it will always remain weak and sickly , only time will tell


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I tend to agree, although I know nothing about monkey life, so I'm no expert to comment really.

I think if it's alive and its parents haven't rejected it, then I would be leaving it with them and watch carefully and wait to see how it gets on.

I just think where there's a life, it's worth saving.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

feorag said:


> I tend to agree, although I know nothing about monkey life, so I'm no expert to comment really.
> 
> I think if it's alive and its parents haven't rejected it, then I would be leaving it with them and watch carefully and wait to see how it gets on.
> 
> I just think where there's a life, it's worth saving.


It cant cling to mum for feeds.
As in first post.


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## Disillusioned (Jan 3, 2012)

I would give it a chance and hand rear it. You would think it would learn to adapt. As it gets older its other limbs will get stronger so maybe it will be ok?
If there were problems re-introducing it to troop then maybe it could be paired up when old enough instead? less competition for food etc that way? Worth a go with the hand-rearing though in my opinion (not that i know much about the subject!) you may learn something you never knew


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Disillusioned said:


> I would give it a chance and hand rear it. You would think it would learn to adapt. As it gets older its other limbs will get stronger so maybe it will be ok?
> If there were problems re-introducing it to troop then maybe it could be paired up when old enough instead? less competition for food etc that way? Worth a go with the hand-rearing though in my opinion (not that i know much about the subject!) you may learn something you never knew


Been here before.
As stated path already made.
Wanted othrrs views.
And they are mixed....


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

What have you decided.


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## Disillusioned (Jan 3, 2012)

Well you can only do what you think is best. What was your decision?


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

I know little about primates. I would say that if you let nature take its course, it will have a slow death, so being pts would be the humane thing to do. The type of deformity you describe is usually congenital, so unless it has happened before with the same parents, there is no need to prevent future breeding from the pair.

If the little guy would have a good quality of life with its own kind if you reared it, then there would be an argument for hand rearing, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Glad its not my decision!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

animalsbeebee said:


> What have you decided.


Dave.
Thought you knew how i am by now.
Think you already know what im doing.

But to all others its top secret...lol
Just wanted opinions..

If i say.
It will turn into another dellema.lol

Will post picks if it lives.
Back where it belongs.
Fending for itself with the troop...

Funny how so called animal lovers can propose dispatching.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> It cant cling to mum for feeds.
> As in first post.


Ah, I see. you said it was weak and fell off, but not that it couldn't get back on again, although I see later on you are saying that you are handrearing it with the other one.

Are both monkeys the same sex and if you successfully handeared both of them, would they be able to stay together??


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## animalsbeebee (May 19, 2008)

knowing how passionate you are with your primates thought that would be the answer

Keep us posted on how both of them get on 

Good luck they are in the best hands ( or boobs lol )


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I always think that if there's life, and there's a chance of a GOOD life, I'd try. If you're handrearing with its sibling, then at least he/she has company of his/her own kind... With a deformity that the critter was born with, they tend to adapt, since they've never known any different.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

feorag said:


> Ah, I see. you said it was weak and fell off, but not that it couldn't get back on again, although I see later on you are saying that you are handrearing it with the other one.
> 
> Are both monkeys the same sex and if you successfully handeared both of them, would they be able to stay together??


Good question.
Ive not even looked at sex as it didnt matter.

We will be working toward getting back into troop.
Beside mum dad and 7 siblings...
Well 8 as other new born still with them.

They will except if they survive.
If you seen how attentive dad was to the one with club hand.
Lifting it up and holding...
Was heart breaking to see his frustration.

They are very complex little critters and never two the same.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I did assume that you would work to try and get it back into the troop because that would be the right thing to do, I was just speculating that if it didn't work and it was attacked could it live with its sibling?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Peter, only just seen this thread. Do you think the deformed baby was born like that, or do you think maybe mum has done it when the baby was born?

I suspected you would do as I would, & give the little mite a chance. :2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

feorag said:


> I did assume that you would work to try and get it back into the troop because that would be the right thing to do, I was just speculating that if it didn't work and it was attacked could it live with its sibling?


Thrres always options.
But confident troop will be ok.
Adaptions can be made to enclosure.

After only couple days its strong.
Clinging pretty well


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Peter, only just seen this thread. Do you think the deformed baby was born like that, or do you think maybe mum has done it when the baby was born?
> 
> I suspected you would do as I would, & give the little mite a chance. :2thumb:


No colin
Born like that.
Stump with one digit.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Thrres always options.
> But confident troop will be ok.
> Adaptions can be made to enclosure.
> 
> ...


Well that's pretty good. :2thumb:

Most animals are much more adaptable to deformities than we humans are because it isn't in their mentality to think "what if?" they just get on with and adapt.

I hope you can get it back into the troop!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

feorag said:


> Well that's pretty good. :2thumb:
> 
> Most animals are much more adaptable to deformities than we humans are because it isn't in their mentality to think "what if?" they just get on with and adapt.
> 
> I hope you can get it back into the troop!


Thanks.
Think with the effort theyd except silverback.
Laid bk troop.
Good harmony etc.
Great mum n dad.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Sounds like it! :2thumb:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Thrres always options.
> But confident troop will be ok.
> Adaptions can be made to enclosure.
> 
> ...


Oh I hope lil mite stays strong, I'm crossing everything xxx


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Glad to hear the little one appears to be doing ok Peter!




PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Funny how so called animal lovers can propose dispatching.



I'm afraid I disagree with this point though. I have a slightly harsher view than many on this thread in terms of animal welfare, but don't think that makes me any less of an animal lover at all.

For me it is all about the responsibility of animal breeders to maintain the healthiest stock possible. 

The decision to PTS is never easy whether it be a brand new baby snake or an old faithful member of the family like a dog, but I often wonder exactly _who_ is benefiting when these decisions are put off or statements like 'everything that is alive deserves a chance at life' are taken on face value.


For me, the issues are usually around the element of the unknown. If the animal is quietly and humanely PTS there is never any chance at all of that animal suffering in anyway. If it is 'given every chance' then you risk the animal suffering in ways you would never know or it would ever be able to tell you. PTS = no chance whatsoever of suffering : Not PTS = possibility of suffering in some way and a very real risk of serious pain/discomfort.

Is it right to say I'm not an animal lover because I'm prepared to make very difficult decisions by putting any sort of emotion or issues I have to one side and focussing solely on the decision that will cause the least possible suffering for the animal? 

These decisions are however, obviously harder the more 'sentient' that animal is and are obviously never as clear cut as 'everything less than perfect is killed without question'. 

However, I do not believe that being prepared to PTS an animal that is born deformed and/or disabled in any way compromises my status as an animal lover.

:2thumb:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

bothrops said:


> For me, the issues are usually around the element of the unknown. If the animal is quietly and humanely PTS there is never any chance at all of that animal suffering in anyway. If it is 'given every chance' then you risk the animal suffering in ways you would never know or it would ever be able to tell you. PTS = no chance whatsoever of suffering : Not PTS = possibility of suffering in some way and a very real risk of serious pain/discomfort.
> 
> Is it right to say I'm not an animal lover because I'm prepared to make very difficult decisions by putting any sort of emotion or issues I have to one side and focussing solely on the decision that will cause the least possible suffering for the animal?
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. But I have to say I would have made the same decision as you Peter, even if just for a while.. here's wishing lots and lots of love and luck to all three xxx


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Its a choice we would make.

But each time must be looked at.
If thrre was no chance of them being monkeys.
Yes..pts
Dont believe in it could be a pet etc.

But thrres nought else showing than missformed hand.
Was bad choice of words by me.

Meant very quick to pts but not knowing all.
Where would it end.

Hope that makes sense.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I agree completely - if the baby was born and it was plainly obvious that it would never manage an adapted lifestyle or be able to function as a primate would then the kind option would be to PTS.

However, where there is the chance to rear and know that the little one may struggle slightly while it learns differently from it's able bodied siblings but it would still be able to function then PTS doesn't even enter the equation.

Oddly enough, me and hubby were watching an animal program the other night and saw a monkey ( could have been a babboon of some type? ) that had no legs and only 1 arm and a normal functioning tail. The little mite was hopping faster than the other primates around, fed normally, climbed like a good un and was in just as good health as it's troop! xx


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Hes progressing fine.

Uses back leg grabbing higher to climb.
Think hes now starting to realise that hes missing a hand.

Still long way to go with rearing.
And for his sibbling..

One with troop is doing good.

Dont see any probs for him being back with family group...

Friend has tam with very stumpy legs.
Wouldnt let another collegue PTS .
Its went on to be dad in very large troop.
No probs...

Also other.
Half sized.
He puts everyone in there place..

Always a hard one.
But each case diff..


I was born with inturned feet.
Ok now.
Thank god i got a chance...lol

Think too many think all needs to be perfect...
Functioning normaly is important.
Or adapting...lol
Have a few pics...
Will post asap.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Great news - I'm sure he'll make up for the lack of a few digits by developing methods of doing and getting what he wants without the need for digits.


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Agree.
Hes named DIGIT.
Thought quite apo...
Wifes really attached to him...
First time shes ever said.
Likes getting tummy kised..
Will take her word for it..lol


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm glad they're doing well :2thumb: Looking forward to pics


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Both babies doing well.
Should be plain sailing now as past scary period.
Digit getting about well.
Other one with troop doing well.
Last one hand reared and re introduced carrys well.
What makes it worth while.
Seeing them learning to be good monkeys after hand rearing.
Not sold on as pets as breaders too interested in money.
But thats my opinion...lol
Will try and get pics up.
Afraid rearing and nightshift doesnt leave much time..
Lots of others ready too burst.
Happy days..lol


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That's excellent news! :2thumb:


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## SwampK (Aug 7, 2012)

can't wait for pics! :2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Started on solids today.
Both took well especially digit who is good bit bigger.
Hes really getting about and the loss of his hand showing no signs of holding him bk.

Got couple of videos and pics.
Will get on asap .
Once work out how to post video..lol


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## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

I have a fox named Rudi who is deformed, his original owners never got a dislocation foxed and so his whole leg changed to adapt. 
I didn't know if Harry and Elspeth would accept him, he cannot run like them and he cannot defend himself so well if he were attacked. I still chose to adopt him and give him a chance. I would have had him neutered if this was a genetic problem but is is not. 

Harry and Elspeth actually really like Rudi. They know he is different and so they go out of their way to help him. When they play I watch them and they do not go where he cannot and they always make sure not to go too fast for him. 

Elspeth has actually chosen Rudi over Harry now. He is a really happy boy and he makes Elspeth really happy and is still great friends with Harry.

One day Rudi will have to have his leg amputated but for now it is fine. I don't think the others will look at him differently as they already know he has a problem with that leg.

I have to be honest in that I was really unsure in the beginning how the other two would take to their disabled friend but it has turned out well and I think animals are more understanding then some people would believe. 

I think (personal opinion) that you should get the monkey neutered/spayed as you obviously don't wan't it to have young but that you should give it a chance at life unless you are sure that the problem is too detrimental. 

-
Elina


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Elina said:


> I have a fox named Rudi who is deformed, his original owners never got a dislocation foxed and so his whole leg changed to adapt.
> I didn't know if Harry and Elspeth would accept him, he cannot run like them and he cannot defend himself so well if he were attacked. I still chose to adopt him and give him a chance. I would have had him neutered if this was a genetic problem but is is not.
> 
> Harry and Elspeth actually really like Rudi. They know he is different and so they go out of their way to help him. When they play I watch them and they do not go where he cannot and they always make sure not to go too fast for him.
> ...


He will be staying with troop Elina.
So doesnt need neautered..
But even going on to breed(which he wont) he would be ok.
Not a genetic issue.
Just one of those things.
Friends have parents not fully perfect.
But there good parents and babys are fine.
He wont be paired up though.
Will stay helper with troop..


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

They are now out incubator and in small cage getting weaned.
Next step out beside family troop.
Let them get the smell from troop.
Then in beside them.
Then let them out a little at a time..
Digit is getting around with no probs at all.
One with family doing really well.
All troop carying.
Good to see last boy hand reared carrying his sibling.
So hopefully over next couple weeks all together.
But no rush.
When both troop and babies are ready..
Good feeling when they go back and learn to be monkeys.
Hence why they shouldnt be removed or sold till skills are taught..
Why leave future to chance.
They dont in the wild.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That reeally is excellent news! :2thumb:


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## Disillusioned (Jan 3, 2012)

Will be good to see the videos, I'm curious to see how he gets about compared to the other little one. I really like reading this thread, so happy they all survived and are doing well! Well done to you peter and your wife of course!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

All i need is someone to teach an old guy how to put vids on forum.
Step by step..lol


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## Disillusioned (Jan 3, 2012)

Hmmm I definitely cannot help you there lol. I am clueless!


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> All i need is someone to teach an old guy how to put vids on forum.
> Step by step..lol



2 ways:

Set up a YouTube account, upload your video to youtube (you can set it so only people who click a link can see it) then put the link here.

Or

Just upload the video to photobucket or imageshack and post the link like you would a photo.

:2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

bothrops said:


> 2 ways:
> 
> Set up a YouTube account, upload your video to youtube (you can set it so only people who click a link can see it) then put the link here.
> 
> ...


Andy you make it sound so simple...
Cheers...:2thumb:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Baby 1 and diggit back in with trooo today.
Troop excepted no problem.
Baby 1 and diggit were a bit nervous.
More so diggit...
Gave an hour then removed.
Will keep doing daily untill there both un stressed..
Then they stay..
Diggit and baby 1 were unseperable when they went back togethrr alone.
Cuddling and whistling...

Amazing how these two have bonded...
But will get 100% comfortable with thrre sibblings and parents.
Slow but will be worth it..
Havent forgotten vids...
Finding time hard bit...


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Better today.
Diggit especially..
More relaxed but still not 100%.
Other baby with troop was playing with them.

Baby one seams to reasure diggit.
Goes too him to get him to follow..
Troop going about as norm..
Excepted them really well..
Recon by weekend they will be 100% with troop..
Long haul but end result makes it worth while.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

It must be so interesting watching the interaction between them all!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Well bit of a disaster today.
Baby one was bit .
Obviously doing what he shoulnt.

He was stressed to the max...

Removed from enclosure and they ran to each other.
Nice to see.
So now diff aproach.

They will stay together in there own enclosure.
When reach maturity will get diggit done and let them live out normal life.
Always together...

Strange thing with monkeys.
Can be fine for days.
Then the shixx hits the fan...
The joys...
Why this hibby is so interesting and defo a chalange


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Baby one back to normal now.
Building 2 new enclosures.
Change of plan.lol
They will come out of temp enclosure to new ones.
Both with partners.
Risky as hand reared.
But have had parent reared that wont raise babys and hand reared that do it no probs.
But will have to wait n see.
Already have partners for them.
They are carrying at moment..
So hooefully outcome will be ok.
Best thing is both are fine.


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Fingers crossed for a positive outcome PEter xx


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Agree! :2thumb:


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