# Gravid female Adder



## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Just a couple images that I recently processed from last year.

I'm quite pleased with these. I was trying out a friend's D800, it's not bad!

Adder (Vipera berus) by James Mintram, on Flickr

Adder (Vipera berus) by James Mintram, on Flickr


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## richardhind (May 18, 2016)

Great pics 


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## Whosthedaddy2 (Oct 24, 2016)

Be a great sight in the wild


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

It sure was. It was a privilege.


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## richardhind (May 18, 2016)

I bet, not had the chance to see any snakes in the wild yet

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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

It will happen - keep grinding!


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## Rolls (Apr 7, 2018)

Look at that eye, just beautiful.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

ViperLover said:


> Just a couple images that I recently processed from last year.
> 
> I'm quite pleased with these. I was trying out a friend's D800, it's not bad!
> 
> ...


Nice photo :thumb: Reminds me of the sort of photos my friend Graeme Skinner often takes. I have one of his Adder portraits on my office wall.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Outlaw said:


> Nice photo :thumb: Reminds me of the sort of photos my friend Graeme Skinner often takes. I have one of his Adder portraits on my office wall.


Graeme was with me during this photo shoot and I was trying out his camera body at the time.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Great picture James, although lets be honest - it would be hard to take a poor picture of such a stunning animal!!


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Cheers, Fraser!

Haha, you would be surprised. I don't post the bad images!


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Great picture James, although lets be honest - it would be hard to take a poor picture of such a stunning animal!!


It is good to see James pursuing a realistically achievable goal of photography, rather than dreaming of driving F1 cars, flying Jets or even, dare I say being a Private Venomous Keeper like he has in the past.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

ViperLover said:


> Graeme was with me during this photo shoot and I was trying out his camera body at the time.


You can't go wrong learning from Graeme teaching you :thumb:


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

We all have a past (some more colourful than others) - I prefer to 'judge' someone by their actions now and how they conduct themselves in the future.

No reason especially with the guidance of experienced keepers, why James can't realise his dream of owning venomous reptiles. 



Outlaw said:


> It is good to see James pursuing a realistically achievable goal of photography, rather than dreaming of driving F1 cars, flying Jets or even, dare I say being a Private Venomous Keeper like he has in the past.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> We all have a past (some more colourful than others) - I prefer to 'judge' someone by their actions now and how they conduct themselves in the future.
> 
> No reason especially with the guidance of experienced keepers, why James can't realise his dream of owning venomous reptiles.


Agreed, it may well be possible.... but it is also a big responsibility and commitment.


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Outlaw said:


> Agreed, it may well be possible.... but it is also a big responsibility and commitment.


Wonder if he'd bother with obtaining a DWA Licence?


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

Shellsfeathers&fur said:


> Wonder if he'd bother with obtaining a DWA Licence?


If he still lives with his family at the same address, then it is a moot point as the tenancy agreement had a specific clause preventing the granting of DWA. If he has his own place, then yes, all good.

I know a number of unlicensed keepers.... their secrete is in keeping stum... :whistling2: I doubt VL would try keeping without a licence.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Outlaw said:


> It is good to see James pursuing a realistically achievable goal of photography, rather than dreaming of driving F1 cars, flying Jets or even, dare I say being a Private Venomous Keeper like he has in the past.


Photography is very much a hobby. It is nothing more and never will be. I make no secret of the fact that my focus now is following my childhood dream of flying, and I am getting there!
The professional academic side to herpetology is full of obnoxious liberal, divisive scumbags, and I have zero tolerance for the majority of them. I can't be in that environment, for my own sanity.....



Outlaw said:


> You can't go wrong learning from Graeme teaching you :thumb:


Well, he is one of my closest friends, so I have picked up a lot from him just by watching!



Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> We all have a past (some more colourful than others) - I prefer to 'judge' someone by their actions now and how they conduct themselves in the future.
> 
> No reason especially with the guidance of experienced keepers, why James can't realise his dream of owning venomous reptiles.


It's not really a dream any more. The direction I am heading would make owning venomous snakes very difficult. I'd rather play with others' animals, without the increased risk of developing hypersensitivity and subsequently anaphylaxis after an accident, which would put a very quick and sudden end to that direction. With that said, I certainly know what I am doing enough to be able to keep them.

I think I know who 'Outlaw' is.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

ViperLover said:


> Photography is very much a hobby. It is nothing more and never will be. I make no secret of the fact that my focus now is following my childhood dream of flying, and I am getting there!
> I sincerely hope you do James... though I don't quite see you in a fighter jet..
> The professional academic side to herpetology is full of obnoxious liberal, divisive scumbags, and I have zero tolerance for the majority of them. I can't be in that environment, for my own sanity.....
> 
> ...


You're normally quick at figuring out who's who :grin1:


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Outlaw said:


> You're normally quick at figuring out who's who :grin1:


We shall see what my aptitudes are when the time comes!

I don't really frequent forums as often as I used to. But yes, it wasn't hard to figure out. Still shooting?


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

ViperLover said:


> We shall see what my aptitudes are when the time comes!
> 
> I don't really frequent forums as often as I used to. But yes, it wasn't hard to figure out.


I left you enough clues :lol2:


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

What James does or doesn't do in *HIS* private life is of no real consequence to me - obviously I wish him well in whatever *HE* chooses to do as I would anybody else. 

My question to you Outlaw (whomever you are) is why do you seem to have such an unhealthy obsession with him? It is actually rather creepy!! 



Within your comments you raise the issue of unlicensed keepers - something that seems to raise its ugly head more so that I would like. Why do you protect these people who break the law - regardless of your feelings of it? Would you fail to report someone who has a gun without a license or a computer full of questionable material? 

There are many laws that I don't necessarily agree with but as part of a law abiding society, I am required to set aside my own feeling and adhere to them - I can't just flout them simply because I don't agree with them. 

These people are a danger to themselves (which they obviously acknowledge) but what about those around them? The fact is they are a danger to the wider reptile keeping community. 

We all know that the DWA is not about the ability of the actual keeper but if for the safety of the general public.

From a personal point of view, these people could potentially jeopardise my ability to keep reptiles of any species and with the animal rights groups just waiting for us to RFUK up, why give them the ammunition they so desire?

In my opinion, you should report these individuals to your local authority - regardless of any loyalty you may have. 



Outlaw said:


> I know a number of unlicensed keepers.... their secrete is in keeping stum... :whistling2: I doubt VL would try keeping without a licence.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

I am actually far more comfortable with an idiotic illegal keeper, than I am an idiotic legal one. It's sad to say that I have met more idiotic legal ones.

People assume that having a license means you can be a prat - this is simply not true. When you have a license, you are under the spotlight and any mistakes you make can result in a change in the law.

An illegal keeper being a prat has already broken the law, so unless our government is 100% authoritarian, there won't be any changes. If that ever was the case, we would have more to worry about than keeping certain animals, and I would suggest in that situation, we arm ourselves as a population and deal with the threat! I would hope it doesn't ever come to that.....


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

To avoid any doubt, my comments have absolutely nothing to do with the competency or otherwise of the keeper or whether he / she is a prat or not - my comments are based purely on the basis that they are *BREAKING THE LAW.* 

Our hobby in all its different facets, should welcome the gaze of outside scrutiny. Why? Because we are beyond reproach and everything we do is both ethical from the animals point of view and law abiding from the general publics point of view. Adverse publicity - regardless of which part it is from - could ultimately be the death knell for everyone within it. 

If it isn't bad enough that we have people within the hobby willing to keep venomous reptiles without a license - we have other individuals who are quite happy to turn a blind eye to this *ILLEGAL ACTIVITY* - neither party is aiding our efforts in achieving this objective. 



ViperLover said:


> I am actually far more comfortable with an idiotic illegal keeper, than I am an idiotic legal one. It's sad to say that I have met more idiotic legal ones.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Far from it.... I've known James since 2009... we've had our "disagreements", some pretty big ones, in the past... and he drove many of us to the point of blocking him on social media etc. I've not really thought about him in years... As I say, I too wish him the very best.
> 
> 
> Within your comments you raise the issue of unlicensed keepers - something that seems to raise its ugly head more so that I would like. Why do you protect these people who break the law - regardless of your feelings of it?
> ...


The UK DWAL Licensing system is far from perfect. I'm not here to police the Private Keeping of venomous snakes....whether someone has a licence or not is of secondary importance to me..... when someone asks me for help (as has happened many times) following a bite, I don't ask if they have a licence or not. last thing I want to hear is that someone died in their living room because they were too scared to ask for help.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> we have other individuals who are quite happy to turn a blind eye to this *ILLEGAL ACTIVITY*.


I am afraid I am one of them.

I don't have the time to get involved with reporting victimless crimes and neither do I want to, and it is my legal right to choose to stay out of it. The only exception to this, is if the public or young children were being placed in immediate danger by reckless behaviour.
Those of us with experience with venomous snakes know how quickly a situation can change, and they have no place within reach of children or the untrained general public.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

As I said, I fully acknowledge that the DWA licensing system may not be perfect - but I repeat, that is not the point. 

I am not saying that you personally should police private keepers - what I am saying is that when you know for a fact (or have reasonable grounds to strongly suspect) that someone is *BREAKING THE LAW* it is (or at least it should be in my opinion) your moral duty to report it - in the same way I would expect someone to report an unlicensed person with a gun. 

Your comments now confirm to me your true identity and I would not expect you to ignore a plea for help from an unlicensed keeper. Lets look at two different scenarios though: 

Scenario 1: *LICENSED* keeper is bitten and you are asked to provide assistance you will know (or have means to find out) what species this person keeps so can provide more accurate advice on how to treat this patient?

Scenario 2: an *UNLICENSED* keeper is bitten and you are asked to provide assistance you *DO NOT* know (and may have no means of finding out) what species this person keeps so are *UNABLE* to provide any accurate advice on how to treat this patient? 

So regardless of your willingness to overlook the fact this person is *BREAKING THE LAW,* you are actually unable to help as much as you would had they been licensed? 



Outlaw said:


> The UK DWAL Licensing system is far from perfect. I'm not here to police the Private Keeping of venomous snakes....whether someone has a licence or not is of secondary importance to me..... when someone asks me for help (as has happened many times) following a bite, I don't ask if they have a licence or not. last thing I want to hear is that someone died in their living room because they were too scared to ask for help.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

The unfortunate thing is this thread has gone from something extremely positive and beautiful to something far more concerning for the whole reptile keeping community - am I the only one that thinks that *BREAKING THE LAW* is totally unacceptable? 

Outlaw / James: I am not here to preach to either of you on the flaws in your own moral compass - the fact you both know people who are *BREAKING THE LAW* is extremely disappointing however.

Also, the fact that you would both openly admit on a public forum this especially you Outlaw, is actually frightening.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I am not here to preach to either of you on the flaws in your own personal moral compass - the fact you both know people who are *BREAKING THE LAW* is extremely disappointing.
> 
> Also, the fact that you would both openly admit on a public forum this especially you Outlaw, is actually frightening.


He has to publicly admit that he knows unlicensed keepers and wouldn't report them. That is how they trust him to help save their lives when they make a mistake. It's the humanist approach.

I am not going to screw my friends over, who have been unlawfully refused licenses or the conditions set for their licenses were unrealistic for the private individual. It is a problem within the legislation its self and it must be repealed and properly replaced. Loyalty is hard to find these days, and I pride myself in being loyal by not dobbing people in for victimless crimes that were the result of a broken system. With that said, there are certainly some crimes I would report, victimless or not. Such as an illegally owned firearm. I still am a campaigner for firearm freedom, and an advocate for a system which crosses over between the 2nd Amendment in the United States, and the system in France. I hate gun crime. Gun crime was the cause for the knee-jerk reaction which resulted in unfair gun laws. But that's another topic for a different thread.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Also, the fact that you would both openly admit on a public forum this especially you Outlaw, is actually frightening.


If you know who I am, then you should also know that I have pretty much backed away from the community over the last four or five years. I don't know with certainty who is currently licensed... 

I have built up trust within the venomous community so I do sometimes have people phone me out of the blue asking for advise following a bite and if they ought to go to hospital (which I always try and get them to do). At that point their license status is of secondary importance. 

Oh and your assumption that unlicensed keepers are ignorant and more dangerous is in my experience wrong. Some of the worst offenders for multiple bites (and lack of knowledge of the species they keep) are licensed DWA holders. 

Guess we'll have to beg to differ.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

ViperLover said:


> He has to publicly admit that he knows unlicensed keepers and wouldn't report them. That is how they trust him to help save their lives when they make a mistake. It's the humanist approach.


Hand on heart, I could not give you the name of a single person today who I know for certain is keeping illegally. There are a few "names" that have been raided in the past so will already be on the authorities radar if they ever dared to keep illegally again.

I have many "friends" on FB etc. who post pictures of venomous snakes... I don't have the time or inclination to ask dozens of people if they are currently licensed or not..... besides, they could just say "yes, of course I have a DWA"...


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Outlaw said:


> I know a number of unlicensed keepers.... their secrete is in keeping stum... :whistling2: I doubt VL would try keeping without a licence.


See the above statement in a public forum!!

You speak about being unlawfully refused a licence - that is not for you or them to decide. The only unlawful activity being carried out is the fact they are keeping a venomous reptile without a licence. 

As I said before, just because you think something is unjust or you have been refused something unfairly, doesn't give you the right to disregard it and do it anyway. 

You speak about trust and loyalty - both admirable qualities but where is the trust the general public should have in the system when there are people willing to flout it and others happy to turn a blind eye? Where is the loyalty these people show to the whole reptile keeping community when they conduct activity knowing full well that it is against the law? 

Can I ask, why would you report someone without a gun licence - an inanimate object let us not forget which unless it is physically taken out of a drawer or gun safe is of absolutely no risk to the general public yet you would not report someone with a thinking, feeling, breathing and mobile should it escape, venomous reptile? 



ViperLover said:


> He has to publicly admit that he knows unlicensed keepers and wouldn't report them. That is how they trust him to help save their lives when they make a mistake. It's the humanist approach.
> 
> I am not going to screw my friends over, who have been unlawfully refused licenses or the conditions set for their licenses were unrealistic for the private individual. It is a problem within the legislation its self and it must be repealed and properly replaced. Loyalty is hard to find these days, and I pride myself in being loyal by not dobbing people in for victimless crimes that were the result of a broken system. With that said, there are certainly some crimes I would report, victimless or not. Such as an illegally owned firearm. I still am a campaigner for firearm freedom, and an advocate for a system which crosses over between the 2nd Amendment in the United States, and the system in France. I hate gun crime. Gun crime was the cause for the knee-jerk reaction which resulted in unfair gun laws. But that's another topic for a different thread.


But you know that at the time, they were unlicensed - chances are they may still be? If they are not and are now licensed then they have nothing to worry about when an inspector knocks on their door then? 

I shall repeat yet again, I am not questioning the competency of the keeper or whether a licensed keeper is more or less prone to be bitten, whether they are a good father or mother or whether they go to church every Sunday or whether they recycle their kitchen waste. What I am questioning is the fact that when it comes to keeping venomous reptiles they are *BREAKING THE LAW* by not having a license. 



Outlaw said:


> If you know who I am, then you should also know that I have pretty much backed away from the community over the last four or five years. I don't know with certainty who is currently licensed...
> 
> I have built up trust within the venomous community so I do sometimes have people phone me out of the blue asking for advise following a bite and if they ought to go to hospital (which I always try and get them to do). At that point their license status is of secondary importance.
> 
> ...


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Anyway... what does all of this have to do with this beautiful female Adder, that we caught and translocated last summer?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> See the above statement in a public forum!!
> 
> You speak about being unlawfully refused a licence - that is not for you or them to decide. The only unlawful activity being carried out is the fact they are keeping a venomous reptile without a licence.
> 
> ...


No, you can not... because it is off topic and doesn't relate to my OP.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Nor does *BREAKING THE LAW* by keeping a venomous reptile yet you seem quite happy to continue with this aspect of the thread?!

Is it because (rhetorical question of course) at the end of the day the end result is the same - they are *BREAKING THE LAW* and you are unable to justify why one is 'acceptable' and the other is not. 



ViperLover said:


> No, you can not... because it is off topic and doesn't relate to my OP.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

To the casual observer, anyone new to this hobby, the law makers, individuals within the animal rights community or any other law abiding citizen - please do not think this activity is deemed acceptable by the vast majority of reptile keepers. 

I and many more like me, do not condone or associate with those who would choose to *BREAK THE LAW* or individuals who through some misguided loyalty, choose to turn a blind eye.



As I said, it is not my responsibility to educate you on the law - since you both already know these people are in breach of it. 

As for this thread, I am done - James I complement you (as I did initially) on a fantastic photograph but as far as the other elements of this thread go - I am extremely disappointed and would wish to distance myself from this.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Nor does *BREAKING THE LAW* by keeping a venomous reptile yet you seem quite happy to continue with this aspect of the thread?!
> 
> Is it because (rhetorical question of course) at the end of the day the end result is the same - they are *BREAKING THE LAW* and you are unable to justify why one is 'acceptable' and the other is not.


Last comment on the debate from me:

Not a single member of the public has ever died as a result of an illegally owned venomous reptile.

People are being shot every week by illegally owned firearms. There's only one reason to own a firearm illegally - to use it for illegal purposes. The law for owning firearms is universal and those who want to own certain firearms legally can so long as they are suitable and have good reason.

Some keepers can prove they are suitable to to be granted a DWA license, they have the training and they have the secure room. But they are prevented by a local authority simply because the licensing officer doesn't like snakes or can't be bothered to do the paperwork. This is unlawful on the part of the LA. So it's about not being a massive douchebag by making their life even harder than it needs to be, by dobbing them in for a "crime" when they were not given the option to pursue their passion legally. Nobody goes around on "biting sprees" with illegally kept venomous snakes. It's a non-argument, Fraser. You are wrong on this, and constantly typing 'breaking the law' in bold, capital letters doesn't change the fact.


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## Outlaw (Apr 24, 2018)

I am going to apologise to CSR and say that I should have clarified my post.

*I've known* a number of unlicensed keepers.... their secrete is in keeping stum... and often even I have not known that they are unlicensed until I received those "help I've just been bitten" phone calls.... 

Besides with a compliance rate of ~ 10% many of us will be "friends" with people without truly knowing their status in regards to licenses.

Also, my comment was more a "leg-pull" at James because we all know he couldn't keep venomous without opening his mouth to people..... and I say that to him with respect.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Outlaw said:


> Also, my comment was more a "leg-pull" at James because we all know he couldn't keep venomous without opening his mouth to people..... and I say that to him with respect.


It's true. I am very passionate about these animals, always have been and always will be.

But my interest in the "community" doesn't exist any more. I just stick with my friends and that's that.


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