# HELP PLEASE dying dart frogs



## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

Well as the title says I need help with my pdf for some reason u keep looseing some there's nothing wrong with temps humidity etc it's just starts with them not eating then they loose weight rapidly become really sluggish then eventually die and it's really getting me down now even frogs In totally different vivs with no cross contamination seem to get it.This is the only hobby I've ever truly enjoy and the well being of my frogs is my numbers 1 priority I know people say not to get disheartened but it getting that way so any help would be massively appreciated thanks


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wint said:


> Well as the title says I need help with my pdf for some reason u keep looseing some there's nothing wrong with temps humidity etc it's just starts with them not eating then they loose weight rapidly become really sluggish then eventually die and it's really getting me down now even frogs In totally different vivs with no cross contamination seem to get it.This is the only hobby I've ever truly enjoy and the well being of my frogs is my numbers 1 priority I know people say not to get disheartened but it getting that way so any help would be massively appreciated thanks


BUGGER I hate seeing this.It is heartbreaking bro,I'm really sorry for you!

Wint how many frogs have died? Can you please give some more background details,what are the frogs exactly you have lost? how long have you had them,each type. How long ago did the losses start? Feeding regime,rough break down of temps? Frogs all in one room? Age of frogs? water being used?

Buddy we have a few darts,you possibly know that,they are in one room. I'm a picky git, no plants get used from an inhabited viv, always washing hands use gloves often bla de bla,there is no way I could say I don't get cross contamination between vivs. Just a ff moving from one to another has the potential to do this. I'm curious if you have had any fecals done and testing at all on the losses? 

Mate we couldn't diagnose anything here as we are not vets,but even so you have given us only weight loss as a symptom no parameters of time really.

Buddy this is very sad how long have you had the longest frogs in your care. The trouble is we don't really know if this is something environmental,or some form of disease,blast us with every detail you can please,it might mean we pick up on something. Failing an environmental problem being found,it really sounds like you need to get some tests done or see a vet
but at the moment more detail might just help us help you.

I'm really sorry for ya bro

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

As Stu says we need details to be able to help out.


Mike


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

First of all thanks for the replys all together I've lost 4 galacs 6 leucs 5 vittatis 2 o yap ok and 2 regina my tank temps are 25_26 degrees day 22-23 during night humidity 80_100 these frogs was all adults but the longest I'd had them was 7 months and they we're fine until I bought the vittatus which i found one dead and after that it started happenin I've got frogs which seem to be fine but I just don't know like I said it just starts with refusing food then after that it's just weight loss to the point of seeing bones it's heart breaking to see and notknowing what to do mate I love my darts like we all know it's not the cheapest hobby and if I was to lose them all I don't think I'd be able to start again


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

where did you get the vittatus from ? and how soon after their arrival did this start happening.

have you added any new plants etc recently to the effected vivs ? perhaps even picked anything up at the same time you got the vittatus, might be from something you got at same time and you may handle from time to time inside the room.

has anyone spray anything near the room ? im going far leftfield here but sometimes a little something you didnt think of could be the cause


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Damn it that's worrying that you were okay till you got those Vitatus.
But Joe is right, has anyone been spraying anything in the room ?
Air fresheners and hair spray or polish, it`s all deadly to your frogs.
I`m thinking of something even more deadly.
Chytrid.


Mike


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Wint said:


> even frogs In totally different vivs with no cross contamination seem to get it.


So just to be clear, different species/morphs in different vivs?

Were all the vivs set up at the same time? Or did you build them over time as your collection increased? Just wondering if there was something used in the vivs or something going badly wrong with them as they mature that could be acting on all of them at a similar time, making it look like contagion?

As said above, to get useful answers I'm afraid you'll need to provide a lot more info - e.g. an actual time line of when you got the frogs, how many, what age, what sex ratios, if/how they were mixed, what they were fed, what supplements were used and how often, how the vivs are heated, what the substrate is etc. Anything you can think of.

Even with this it'll be difficult to get you an answer, unless something obvious pops up, but you've lost a lot of frogs there and if we can save the rest it's worth trying!

Nick

P.S. And add smoking to mike's list above....


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Wint, im very sorry for your loss, and im not being a douche with what i'm about to post and ask, im making no assumptions here, just trying to help figure this out

i looked through your history of threads and it appears you've posted two threads wanting to sell/swap your tricolors. and also you've posted add's to swap/sell other peoples vivariums.

i have to ask, did you buy a viv from someone that was already built )ie background, cork panels etc) or planted etc, also, if you did buy a pre made viv, did they previously house any other frogs from the seller etc ?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wint,do you have any animals showing signs of sickness now,if so my utter first move would be a vet. Have you got any of the vittatus left? Buddy if you do have some form of amphibian disease sweeping through your collection you need a vet an a good un asap. You need a proper 100% diagnosis,then you can treat for that,there just isn't another way of getting round this,not without a huge dollop of luck,in that you magically guess the right disease and treat for that,mate speak to the folks at pinmore animal labs as a start,maybe even ask zoos that have a decent amphibian dept.





Joe I'm wary of asking where the frogs came from at this time it is slightly premature I would also feel unfair to the breeder,at this stage. It is a perfectly natural question to ask,but the implications could potentially be horrible for an innocent party

I'm going to use myself as an example Mate say wint got his vittatus from me and had picked up a bit of wood in an english woodland say a bit of oak like I do,and taken it home and popped it in his vittatus viv. But unfortunately that wood was contaminated with a disease like chytrid for example. 

Folks would very quickly jump to an incorrect conclusion, that the frogs I passed on to him were carrying Bd. I'd be left being completely innocent,but having to prove to folks, that my collection was clear. The only way I could do that is to have my whole collection tested and even them the vast majority of our hobby would be wary of even coming here let alone going home with one of my frogs...maybe apart from guys that really know me. To add insult to injury I am one of very few folks here whom has had some tests done for BD and Rv. If this was one of our froggy shops it could be catastrophic for them. An open public forum possibly isn't the best place to answer this question until proof positive is out there. 

Wint mate this is the most horrible thing that all of us that care fear,I'm gutted for ya mate. Please get a vet on this and find out what is going on. even this bloody fungus that has wiped out so many amphibians can be treated,not only can temperatures play a part ,but meds as well. Some frogs can carry pathogens and not show any ill effect,so this could start up again even if you have had months with no problems,but in the big scheme,I'd almost guess you have recently lost another and that is why you have posted. You can also get post mortems done mate,but they can be hit and miss...been there no absolute cause found.so £100 went in the bin,that said I did know it wasn't Bd or RV that killed that frog. But with a most mortem time is crucial,the dead frog need rapidly cooling in the fridge not freezer and getting in to the vet or labs hands asap,the longer it takes
the less they have to work with. you can also do swabs to check for Bd and RV and have fecals done too for other things such as paracites.


Wint our hobby (UK) barely does QT,I only do a very basic one (in most cases ,sure it lasts min 3 months before a frog gets to a viv,but I do not test every single animal. That said we pretty much trust to luck working this way,there are clear protocols out there for Qt that possibly might have avoided this horrible situation you are in and any of us could be in. That said we don't know what is going on so all the Qt in the world might not have prevented this

best of luck with the rest mate,don't give up on this though,we all get hard times ,anyone does whom keeps livestock...the only sure thing about anything living is one day it won't be

take care 

Stu


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i hear ya Stu, i wasnt asking for a name n shame, more like if he picked them up from some random, a random pet shop, or in a swap deal. i understand what you are getting at 100% tho fella. as i said in later post, it could clearly just be a case of even picking up a plant from somewhere and it just been perfect circumstances to blame the new frogs


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Joe, I know you weren't going name and shame bro,it is a natural question that springs to mind (I thought it too), straight up apologies mate. I just needed to point out the genuine possible ramifications bro. This is bloody tricky , if we did have a very nasty pathogen out there in the brit hobby...ALL HYPOTHETICAL pinning a source down is bloody important,but the flip is folks start jumping about instead of being level headed. Sh*t the bed, our hobby isn't level headed about silly simple things let alone something serious:bash::bash:

Wint Joe is a great guy I'm getting to know him pretty well I call the bugger friend (he was here two days back),just to be clear I know exactly where he's coming from and he will be exactly like me Mike and Nick too...we want ya through this. there is no malice here from any of these guys me included My post was almost one of protecting a breeder(nameless) really not directed at anyone. I've seen some of this type of fallout elsewhere.... it isn't pretty.

The post important thing is getting you sorted out,it might not be a disease at all,that's why there are a truck load of questions fired at you,they are all aimed at ruling things out and there are a lot of things to rule out !!

Try and give us every detail of what has happened mate

Stu


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

Meefloaf said:


> where did you get the vittatus from ? and how soon after their arrival did this start happening.
> 
> have you added any new plants etc recently to the effected vivs ? perhaps even picked anything up at the same time you got the vittatus, might be from something you got at same time and you may handle from time to time inside the room.
> 
> has anyone spray anything near the room ? im going far leftfield here but sometimes a little something you didnt think of could be the cause


Thanks for reply 8 bought the vittatus from a reptile shop in my area and no nothing gets sprayed near my frog room it was probably about a few weeks after I got them that things went wrong


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

DrNick said:


> So just to be clear, different species/morphs in different vivs?
> 
> Were all the vivs set up at the same time? Or did you build them over time as your collection increased? Just wondering if there was something used in the vivs or something going badly wrong with them as they mature that could be acting on all of them at a similar time, making it look like
> As said above, to get useful answers I'm afraid you'll need to provide a lot more info - e.g. an actual time line of when you got the frogs, how many, what age, what sex ratios, if/how they were mixed, what they were fed, what supplements were used and how often, how the vivs are heated, what the substrate is etc. Anything you can think of.
> ...


Thanks for reply I got all my vivs at same time but they was all empty so I built them I used expanding foam and coco fibre for back ground plantation soil substrate and all plants was fertiliser free and pesticide free all my species on frog are housed alone but I've built them over time and the last of my tank the frogs seem fine and I've had frogs in there for months with no ill affects I really do think it's environmental mate


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

Meefloaf said:


> Wint, im very sorry for your loss, and im not being a douche with what i'm about to post and ask, im making no assumptions here, just trying to help figure this out
> 
> i looked through your history of threads and it appears you've posted two threads wanting to sell/swap your tricolors. and also you've posted add's to swap/sell other peoples vivariums.
> 
> i have to ask, did you buy a viv from someone that was already built )ie background, cork panels etc) or planted etc, also, if you did buy a pre made viv, did they previously house any other frogs from the seller etc ?


Thank you for reply and no all my vivs are empty when purchased and my tri colours have been around since the beginning and they are fine no problems with them at all


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

soundstounite said:


> Wint,do you have any animals showing signs of sickness now,if so my utter first move would be a vet. Have you got any of the vittatus left? Buddy if you do have some form of amphibian disease sweeping through your collection you need a vet an a good un asap. You need a proper 100% diagnosis,then you can treat for that,there just isn't another way of getting round this,not without a huge dollop of luck,in that you magically guess the right disease and treat for that,mate speak to the folks at pinmore animal labs as a start,maybe even ask zoos that have a decent amphibian dept.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for reply I don't blame anyone who I bought my frogs from they was all healthy strong frogs I think I must be environmental mate I Do get stuff from my local woodland eg logs moss I think during viv building something happened


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Lets go back to basics.Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs.

How do you measure temperature and humidity ?

Whereabouts in your room are they? Are they near a radiator or window?

How do you heat and light the vivariums?

How do you mist the vivariums and how regularly?

What do you feed the frogs and how often ?

Some photos of the vivariums might give us a pointer. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/newbie-advice/112135-how-post-pictures-using-photobucket.html


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

colinm said:


> Lets go back to basics.Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs.
> 
> How do you measure temperature and humidity ?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply I measure temp and humidit with a komodo digital hydro meter and termomiter no mate there not near any windows or radiator I use arcadia t8 for lighting and I heat the room with a oil filled radiator I mist are least twice a day with a hand help mister and I feed fruit flys most days with calcium powder


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

what type of Ca powder kiddo?

What type of silicone was used in the builds,exact brand please buddy? 

Mate I'm not blaming anyone breeder or otherwise,not my bag bro,I just want to help you find out why this has happened and hopefully stop any more deaths. Unless one of the things you have used to build out the vivs,is in some way toxic,maybe a slow poisoning then nothing so far care wise seems possible to have caused this,bar something being brought in on the wood or moss. For me we are then back to a possible disease.

Stu


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

soundstounite said:


> what type of Ca powder kiddo?
> 
> What type of silicone was used in the builds,exact brand please buddy?
> 
> ...


I didn't use silicone mate I pressed the coco fibre strict into the wet foam and calcium is komodo nutri_cal mate


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ok that one is off the list:2thumb: The komodo Ca I don't know about,never used,we use Repashy Ca plus as daily dust for ff.Plus Repashy vit A no more than once every two weeks. The komodo stuff contains vit A,do you have a proper break down for this product? I'm just getting a list of some vits Ca and D3

OK next: name and brand of foam please mate?


Did you do anything to the wood,bake it boil it bleech it bung it in? 

On the subject of wood,give me specifics,where was it collected? Woodland ? Farmers field? A big oak near a pond? Off a tree as opposed to on the ground?

Do you have native wood in every viv where a frog died?

Wint answer all those wood questions please, with as much detail as you can please. 

Stu


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Have you any frogs left that you can take photos of ?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

colinm said:


> Lets go back to basics.*Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs.*
> 
> How do you measure temperature and humidity ?
> 
> ...


Nothing constructive to add, just browsing and learning more about amphibians. 

That might become my next signature though. 
:2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm wondering if it's because the exp foam is unsealed and leaching chemicals.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> I'm wondering if it's because the exp foam is unsealed and leaching chemicals.
> 
> 
> Mike


Exactly why I'm asking for exact brand bro,or curing process has gone wrong somehow?

The only way we can narrow all this down is detail on the answers Mike...

Stu


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

soundstounite said:


> Ok that one is off the list:2thumb: The komodo Ca I don't know about,never used,we use Repashy Ca plus as daily dust for ff.Plus Repashy vit A no more than once every two weeks.  The komodo stuff contains vit A,do you have a proper break down for this product? I'm just getting a list of some vits Ca and D3
> 
> OK next: name and brand of foam please mate?
> 
> ...


The foam is soudal mate and I put the wood and moss straight in but it was from a woodland and some of the frogs thar died did have it in yes but some died that didn't mate


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

But I don't know if this matters or not but I keep finding these tiny worms must be 5 mm long and a light pink in colour and yes they have been found in the vivs which frogs have died


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

How many of these worms ?
Can you post a photo of them ?


Mike


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

frogman955 said:


> How many of these worms ?
> Can you post a photo of them ?
> 
> 
> Mike


I see them mostly moving up viv glass I do take them out when I see them I carnt upload pictures but if you pm me ill try and get a photo mate


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

colinm said:


> Have you any frogs left that you can take photos of ?


It won't let me up load photos mate


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

If you have a large enough infestation of these, if they are what I think they are, they can give off a gas which will kill your frogs.
I`ve known it to happen to someone I know.
Do you have a spare viv which you can shift the frogs into temporarily to see if they improve.
Do you smell any funny odours when you open the viv door, a bit like rotten eggs.


Mike


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Just thinking, try putting a slice of apple in the viv overnight and see what collects on it by morning.
Some use cucumber.


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> If you have a large enough infestation of these, if they are what I think they are, they can give off a gas which will kill your frogs.
> I`ve known it to happen to someone I know.
> Do you have a spare viv which you can shift the frogs into temporarily to see if they improve.
> Do you smell any funny odours when you open the viv door, a bit like rotten eggs.
> ...


I think we're both thinking the same thing here Mike. This sounds a LOT like your mate who's substrate started rotting, which gassed his frogs. The worms often appear in vivs where the substrate has gone sour, usually thanks to too much coir been used in it (I don't use ANY coir in dart frog subs for this reason). The usual tell is if the frogs seem to spend a lot of time higher up in the viv, rather than mooching around in leaf litter etc on the floor hunting for food.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> I think we're both thinking the same thing here Mike. This sounds a LOT like your mate who's substrate started rotting, which gassed his frogs. The worms often appear in vivs where the substrate has gone sour, usually thanks to too much coir been used in it (I don't use ANY coir in dart frog subs for this reason). The usual tell is if the frogs seem to spend a lot of time higher up in the viv, rather than mooching around in leaf litter etc on the floor hunting for food.


I would second this. I think the worms are misunderstood and generally a symptom rather than the cause - a sign that something has gone wrong and that the balance of the viv is off. 

The (thankfully) one and only bad experience I have had with a dartfrog viv was about 5 years ago when I lost a trio of tincs in quick succession (one per day over 3 days). When I stripped out the viv the substrate was warm, saturated and stinking. An anaerobic substrate is a recipe for disaster and I am convinced that many if not most multiple dartfrog deaths are due to bacterial infections caused by a poorly functioning substrate. May not be the case here, who knows, but it is still something worth thinking about. Have a dig and a sniff in the viv/substrate. It should smell like a forest floor, or neutral. Anything else requires attention.....

Nick


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

Wint said:


> I didn't use silicone mate I pressed the coco fibre strict into the wet foam and calcium is komodo nutri_cal mate


you have created an "open wound" in your setup(s). the foam needs to be sealed and you have punctures everywhere. over time with the misting it will become saturated then start to leak out all undesirable concoctions into your substrate and this is after the fumes that have been pouring into the viv continuously since being applied.
even though this may not be a factor at this time I would address this for a safer environment for your frogs and substrate inhabitants of which your frogs feed of too.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

after seeing this thread i had a good nose round my viv and found a few spots i needed to seal up (literally 2mm dots, two of em), and has re-instated why i dislike hte silicone covering method too. i've wet the substrate on the silicone and given it a nice smearing of GG to seal it all up. with the silicone i always find when smear it across foam it pulls and can leave thin or even the odd hole


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Worms coloured pink probably nemerteans right? Wouldn't we be seeing white worms with anerobic subs guys? I also concur with the anerobic subs theory by the way,but the colour of worm pink is foxing me slightly,unless pink ones are found in anerobic subs which is new to me personally.

wint can you be more specific on the expanding foam,I know I'm being pendantic mate,but not in a nasty way, it's just they make more than one product,maybe bung a link up to what you bought. I'm also concerned about the bare foam ,but I always thought that if the right product is used,it is inert once the curing process has taken place? Providing it is cured properly of course. 

The native wood might be responsible for the worms buddy,we need an ID there and as you have already seen I'm unsure about the worms,the smell of rotten eggs will tell us though if the subs are anerobic. The native wood might also have the potential to bring in a disease and that could also potentially be spread by yourself around the collection. Anyone could do that bro ,not blaming you here. I'm just digging trying to make sense of it all. 

Stu


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> I think we're both thinking the same thing here Mike. This sounds a LOT like your mate who's substrate started rotting, which gassed his frogs. The worms often appear in vivs where the substrate has gone sour, usually thanks to too much coir been used in it (I don't use ANY coir in dart frog subs for this reason). The usual tell is if the frogs seem to spend a lot of time higher up in the viv, rather than mooching around in leaf litter etc on the floor hunting for food.


So, are we now saying that coir has a potential negative effect on the health of a dart viv. Surely the problem comes from stagnated anaerobic substrates.
Terry


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

soundstounite said:


> Worms coloured pink probably nemerteans right? Wouldn't we be seeing white worms with anerobic subs guys? I also concur with the anerobic subs theory by the way,but the colour of worm pink is foxing me slightly,unless pink ones are found in anerobic subs which is new to me personally.
> 
> wint can you be more specific on the expanding foam,I know I'm being pendantic mate,but not in a nasty way, it's just they make more than one product,maybe bung a link up to what you bought. I'm also concerned about the bare foam ,but I always thought that if the right product is used,it is inert once the curing process has taken place? Providing it is cured properly of course.
> 
> ...


It's called Sudafoam mate and it's for the foam guns and all but one viv I've stripped and redone over the last months and the one I haven't is the one in which my last two frogs have died like you have all suggested I could be one of many things and that's all down to my ignorance and inexperience in the hobby but I'm starting to berleave it's environmental mate as aposed to disease and I carnt upload pictures but if you pm your email ill send pictures of the worms mate


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## Wingnut2711 (Feb 16, 2015)

Can offer no input but this has made me nervous about my set up, I am yet to introduce any livestock although I have put in springtails and woodlice. Plenty of helpful suggestions here i'll be making note of to regularly check so thanks for that. 

To the OP I hope this sorts out for you and you find the issue,

Marc.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

anni said:


> So, are we now saying that coir has a potential negative effect on the health of a dart viv. Surely the problem comes from stagnated anaerobic substrates.
> Terry


Tel many of us have noted how much water eco earth/coir/cocofibre holds. I use it combined with peat as my coverage for foam etc. but never as a main constiuent in the potting mix or substrate mixes. It also seems to compress down when wet to quite a dense format(sorry mate I can't think of the right word). So I guess simply put it has the potential to be a contributing factor to an anerobic substrate forming because of these characteristics.

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wint said:


> It's called Sudafoam mate and it's for the foam guns and all but one viv I've stripped and redone over the last months and the one I haven't is the one in which my last two frogs have died like you have all suggested I could be one of many things and that's all down to my ignorance and inexperience in the hobby but I'm starting to berleave it's environmental mate as opposed to disease and I carnt upload pictures but if you pm your email ill send pictures of the worms mate


The only way you'll be sure on desease is to test. Your choice but how it is,then you can be sure it is environmental. Did the subs smell at all mate like the guys stated above? 

Mate I'll look at the foam another time,not a good day for me today,on a horrible level,if (Dr) Nick reads this though his opinion would be worth more than mine,
ahh the best of luck kiddo

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Right then here is one of his photos.
Just need to know now how many worms are in the viv.


Mike


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

frogman955 said:


> Right then here is one of his photos.
> Just need to know now how many worms are in the viv.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks mate I'd say I see no more than 4 to 5 at a time I was more worried about them being parasitic or poison to frogs than fumes they give off


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The trouble is that they hide in the substrate so almost impossible to see.
They usually appear at night when the lights are off and you`ll normally see them climbing on the glass.
That's why I suggest using a slice of apple as they will congregate on that and is a good way of removing them and also letting you get an idea of how many there are in the viv.
I`ve seen as many as maybe 100 on a slice of apple.

Mike


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

Hello thank you all for your replys I am very thankful for your help I think I've found the source I have been taking moss from round my parents fish pond and recently I've noticed a number of dead frogs round the pond there was non there when I took it but it can't be coincidence can it


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

What do you think that the wild frogs died of?


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

I'm not sure mate but it's what ever killed the frogs around the pond some sort of disease


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Do they have any blisters or boils on there body or legs ?

Are they sitting in the shallows, lifeless ?

Are they shedding their skin more than normal?


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

I've not noticed any blister our boils mate and they do get lifeless not noticed more regular skin shedding i thought it was red leg at first but don't think it is


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It could be chytrid. Its a long shot but it could be. Do you have any wild or captive frogs that are showing the problems now ?


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

Fingers crossed no mate Ive redone all tanks with the moss in


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It is treatable though with a solution of athletes foot spray ( not the cream ).


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

Yea I think your right mate it is chytrid so how do you go about treatment any body know please


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Chytrid fungus - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki

Have a read of this and follow the instructions.


Mike


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

I'm really confused about all this so how do you steraziling the tanks contents eg pods and how to treat the actual frogs


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

It is all explained on there. 
You have to mix the spray with water to bathe the frogs.
If you don't want to strip the viv and start all over you have to spray hehe viv and leave empty for 3 months.
There are several things you can do but you have to read that page.
This is the perils of buying plants from garden centres or collecting from the wild.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

wint there is also the possibility of the Uk strain of Rv...rana virus here,plus talk to your folks make sure nothing could have potentially contaminated the pond. It might be a very good idea to contact english nature about the die off in the pond. i've said this a couple of times now you need an ID if it is a disease as this effects your treatment. You might find that through english nature could might get an ID if it is a disease,without the expense of a vet,but which ever way reporting this would help our native amphibians,as the more they know,the more they can do.

Wint don't treat your frogs on a best guess senario,treat them with the guidance of a pro (vet),it's senseless spending your money and going through all the vivs treating for Bd,if for example some chemical killed the frogs in the pond.Plus I don't think the protocols to kill RV will be the same as for Bd. 

Stu


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## Wint (Oct 19, 2014)

Yes I understand mate does any vet do the testing or is it special vets mate because I really need to know what course of treatment to take


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wint said:


> Yes I understand mate does any vet do the testing or is it special vets mate because I really need to know what course of treatment to take


Bro read permalink 9 first paragraph

good luck

Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Possibly better read Colin's chytrid thread:2thumb:

Stu


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## Redhog (May 18, 2011)

*Foam*

Can someone please clarify for me.
I have used expanding foam (non fire retardant), aquarium silicone and coir background, are you saying that if there is any bare foam, uncovered by the silicone, that this could be fatal to frogs?
It's just I have spotted some very small areas and am now worried it may harm my frogs

Thanks


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## Redhog (May 18, 2011)

*Foam*

I thought once it had cured that it was harmless??


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

The worry is to do with any chemicals which might leach out from the foam.
Although "cured" it could still allow chemicals to leach out once it`s wet.
If the areas affected are very small you might well get away with it.
If it is possible you could try putting a small blob of silicone onto the bare area and at the same time press some eco earth onto it and leave it to cure.
If you do just the one spot at a time there shouldn`t be enough fumes to affect your frogs.
Ideally though it would be better if you could remove them for a day while doing the repairs to allow any fumes to clear.


Mike


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Always best to be cautious, but providing you used a 'safe' foam to begin with it's no cause for panic. I have a viv that has basically a foam bottom (some of it anyway...) graded up to the back. Over the years some of this foam has started poking out like Icebergs and done the retics in there no harm. It's on my 'to do' list!!

Nick


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

i noticed a few holes in the silicone (admitedly this is why i dont like the smearing of silicone method) and went over them with gorilla glue, infact i went over the lot with GG just to be sure


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Joe Nick has has a better brain for this stuff than I,ha especially at the mo:bash::bash:,but isn't GG just the same safe foam,but without the expandable feature?

Nick me old mucker explain expandable foam in a way I can dig into it please if ya see this.

Essentially I am unsure that a safe foam ,once cured(properly) can be harmful to the frogs even if it isn't covered with a sealant of some description?

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi Stu. Hope all is well. You're right - GG is basically (there will be differences) just expanding foam in a bottle. They're both polyurethane which isn't nice stuff really, but theoretically inert when cured. I've never seen or heard of obvious problems with GG, so no reason to believe that expanding foam should be any worse. The fire retardants in expanding foam are the ingredients to watch out for (avoid). I've never been completely comfortable having either in a viv to be honest, but as I say, never seen any evidence to support my lingering doubt! I think they're both 'safe'.

Nick


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## Redhog (May 18, 2011)

That brings me some reassurance guys, thanks.
After reading this thread I was ready to rip my terrarium apart and out the foam.
I was unsure of the cause of this poor guys frog deaths and at one point the expanding foam was in the spotlight, I was pooping it!!

Maybe I will fill the small gaps with GG just to be safe


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

DrNick said:


> Hi Stu. Hope all is well. You're right - GG is basically (there will be differences) just expanding foam in a bottle. They're both polyurethane which isn't nice stuff really, but theoretically inert when cured. I've never seen or heard of obvious problems with GG, so no reason to believe that expanding foam should be any worse. The fire retardants in expanding foam are the ingredients to watch out for (avoid). I've never been completely comfortable having either in a viv to be honest, but as I say, never seen any evidence to support my lingering doubt! I think they're both 'safe'.
> 
> Nick


Nick thanks battered bro ,but not beat:whip::2thumb: cheers man hope ya good(summs promising mate,I guess we'll have to talk in the not to distant future properly) !! But thanks for the above,Nick these products contain isocyanates? am I right? that is somehow being locked up in an inert form,is that correct?

Redhog l,I'm say 4/5 years into a leuc build (frog in viv 41/2 years,viv built way before frogs) that had foam as an integral part of that build ,frogs are fine,don't get me wrong elastopur is a thick seal over the top,but it,ie the foam,can't be having any negative effect,on the frogs,kids are successfully reared in viv,over and over,if there was just the slightest gap to allow leaching it has to go into that front ditch,on an ent style viv. Mate I'm pretty thorough on such things,but not for one second do I think i'm perfect, there has to be a gap somewhere and anything of poetential harm to me frogs has to end up in the water where tads morphout without issue,so it hasn't made a jot of difference to a day old tad,let alone an adult frog .I'd chill a bit. I will say I share some of Nick's reservations though, always will...expanding foam doesn't really feature all that much in the bog standard rainforest I've been told about:whistling2:

belucky both

Stu


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

That's right Stu - they're very reactive materials. I have never investigated the composition of different brands of squirty foam vs GG, but I'm guessing that they will be very similar. The key is to use a good quality product where you can be confident that virtually all of the monomer has reacted. As I say, I'm as happy as I can be with GG!!

Nick


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