# Toddler 'Critical' After Dog Attack At House



## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Sorry if this has been posted else where im too tierd to search for it lol.

I just want to knwo your views on this and if you believe everything you read in the media about these so called dog attacks.

Id prefer for this to stay as a debate not a name calling match or lets see how many people we can upset with our comments thanks.

Toddler And Mother Attacked By Dogs Near Bradford, West Yorkshire | UK News | Sky News


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## Myth (May 22, 2009)

> It is thought the pair were mauled as they visited the woman's brother at his house.


There's not enough info in that story for me to voice an opinion on it really.


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## bridgey88 (Apr 19, 2009)

i dont like the fact that it has to state the "alleged" breed of the dog twice. why must they always blame it on a breed of dog and not the owners


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## Cheeky-x (Feb 2, 2009)

I dont know, must be some reason why they attacked!!-not blaming the child but I believe dog will only attack for a reason...Shame it was staffy's though they could do without all the bad press!! I also dont believe everything i read, the papers have a good way of getting you to believe their side and its also going to be a very biased story!! Poor kid!! And Poor dogs


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

sorry i found this in off topic after looking lol.

but im happy to debate here although i think most people will share my opinion on it.


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## Cheeky-x (Feb 2, 2009)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> sorry i found this in off topic after looking lol.
> 
> but im happy to debate here although i think most people will share my opinion on it.


 
What do you think on it?? x


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Cheeky-x said:


> What do you think on it?? x


heres my view on it as posted on the sky news discussion board.

"Although i do feel for the child as no-one would want this to happen to their relatives but i fall to see how a child as young as this can be put out of sight to allow anything liek this to happen.

For all anyone on here knows or the media for that matter the child could hace been tormenting the dogs inorder for them to attack, They dont says "Terrible twos" for nothing.

This story will be blown out of proportion leading to more of this breed and type to be in kennels and put down every week and personally i can see this breed and many more with the word "bull" in its name being banned wihin less than 10 years.

I still cant believe that this breed has done this from it sown accord they are very loyal dogs towards humans and its idiotic people that own them thats lead this storys like this.

All dogs have the potentail to bite when its been pushed to the limits but you dont see a Yorkie headlining in the news because its attack someone because the type of breed is considerd "cute" and yes they may not be able to do as much damage as say a Staffy,Rottie or even labrador but it shouldnt become one rule for one and one for another. "


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

Yet more bad press for "devil dog" staffies 

The usual contradictions. First they state one is known to be unpredictable (but without giving the source of that info) and then a neighbour says the complete opposite.

More information will come out, and I doubt the humans in this story will be completely blameless.

I know it's terrible for the child and mother, but I'm afraid I feel more sorry for the dogs, which have no doubt already been destroyed. And if someone wants to criticise that they're welcome to, but I make no apology for caring more about the dogs.


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## Cheeky-x (Feb 2, 2009)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> heres my view on it as posted on the sky news discussion board.
> 
> "Although i do feel for the child as no-one would want this to happen to their relatives but i fall to see how a child as young as this can be put out of sight to allow anything liek this to happen.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah i agree, storys like this really annoy me!! In fact yorkies can be quite nippy and aggressive at times and i know a few people get bit by them!! Difference is a staff is alot more powerful so they get the bad name!! Piss** me off!! Its nearly always owners stupidiity! 

If they are going to ban ''bull'' breeds they will have a load of sh*t on there back...i think MAYBE licensing would be a better option, stop the yobs getting hold of them and using them as status symbols!!


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

The story doesn't give anywhere near enough information for anyone to really give an opinion, surely?!


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

Yet another nail in the coffin for staffies. I wonder how many more will be dumped in the coming weeks after this story.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Not enough info for an opinion, although that kind of info rarely makes it to the news anyway. Eg. had the toddler been pulling on their ears, or left alone with the dogs, etc. What kind of training had the dogs had, indeed if any, etc etc etc.

That stuff never makes the news, just their breed and the DDA. I expect a huge uproar about how "evil" staffies are and yet another call for a ban.

When really they should ban crappy chav owners who dont train their dogs, pick out innappropriate breeds for their "hard" status, and often encourage bad behaviour to perpetuate the breed myths etc.

Not saying that's what's happened here, although I do live near Bradford, and the majority of staffie owners in our area are tracksuit wearing dole dossing heroin using d*ckheads who shouldn't own a seamonkey let alone a dog.


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## cpiggott22 (Apr 1, 2009)

I must admit that I haven't read through all of this thread but this really is the last thing the breed needs...more poorly written press with no real details but just enough to make gullible people take it to heart.

While I was waiting for my bus the other day a beautiful little staffy and her owner arrived and a little boy went up to say hello to her. Two elderly men nearby then started mumbling 'I wouldn't let my child near that savage thing, they're dangerous' and I just wanted to smack them. Idiots with no knowledge of dogs repeat rubbish news story as gospel truth and run around telling all their idiot friends. A couple of bad examples of the breed and everyone jumps ont he bandwagon...this story would have been nowhere near as big a deal if the dog had been a shi-zu (sp??!). True there are obviously some aggressive staffies but the same could be said of any breed.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It's funny the logic behind these breed myths. I used to have mums and kids cross the road to avoid Sky (pretty slender lurcher!), but the world and their uncle think they can approach Blu without asking if he's ok with them petting him (66kg of dane). To be fair you couldn't get a softer dog, but think of the damage he could do if he was bad with people - and they simply dont care. If he was a friendly staffie however, they'd not approach without asking. Tell me, which do you think could do more damage - a little staffie or a whopping great dane?


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## cbreakenridge (Apr 27, 2009)

Personally LisaLQ, in my opinion, they can do equal amounts of damage. The danes have the bigger jaws, but staffies are stubborn as hell when it comes to letting go. 
And again, its down to the owners what that dog does. Its like the debate we had a few months back, about the snake constricting that child in america. If the dozy tw:censor:t didnt leave the snake in an unsecure bag in an unsecure fish tank then the snake wouldnt have got out and it wouldnt have killed the child. 
People blame the animal all the time, and although I do not appreciate it, I can see why some people are nervous letting their children around large snakes/ bull breeds as idiots have bred them to fight, and to be vicious :bash: Its not the dogs fault, but I tell you something its wrong and bloody stupid. 

Sorry for ranting.. I thought Id stop now before I got myself in trouble, or bored people to death


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> It's funny the logic behind these breed myths. I used to have mums and kids cross the road to avoid Sky (pretty slender lurcher!), but the world and their uncle think they can approach Blu without asking if he's ok with them petting him (66kg of dane). To be fair you couldn't get a softer dog, but think of the damage he could do if he was bad with people - and they simply dont care. If he was a friendly staffie however, they'd not approach without asking. Tell me, which do you think could do more damage - a little staffie or a whopping great dane?


 
I know what you mean, and people are SO rude with speaking to dogs without the owners permission, whatever the breed. It's particularly annoyign when you're trying to teach a puppy to greet people nicely and they just wade on over and when you ask the dog to sit and not jump, they say 'oh, it's fine, I don't mind him/her jumping up'.... :bash:

I was recently out with two friends and their five children. All five ran over to a woman with a Yorkie and were bedning over it trying to say hello, while the dog was desperately hiding behind the woman, barking/gowling. Neither friend did anything, so I called the children away, but one child was still trying to bend over the dog to say hello. In the end (an dbearing in mind, this all happened in a split second) I grabbed said child by the arm and pulled her away. I didn't hurt her, but she was shocked and so was her Mother/my friend, to be quite honest. I apologised to my friend and explained that they were frightening the dog and I was worried it might bite to defend itself.

The Yorkie owner was thankful, but I do wonder had the children approached a Staffie or Rottie if the parents would have thought it was Ok for the children to intimidate it like that?! It just didn't occur to anyoen that a Yorkie might bite aswell!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Drighlington toddler critical in hospital (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)

Woman's last comment about staffs is really sad. I don't know if anyone remembers but Bradford dog wardens were one of the first to react to the Liverpool attack with a "dangerous dog" amnesty and the wrongful seizure of dogs of "type" (mostly in this area american bulldogs and staffies). The dog warden has a real problem with bull breeds and top it off with a God complex and little education and no doubt we will again see their moronic reaction to this and fear for our dogs' lives again. Goes to show how well their dog amnesty worked though, doesn't it?


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## Darklas (Mar 25, 2009)

midori said:


> The Yorkie owner was thankful, but I do wonder had the children approached a Staffie or Rottie if the parents would have thought it was Ok for the children to intimidate it like that?! It just didn't occur to anyoen that a Yorkie might bite aswell!


Funny that you mention that story. I have 3 Yorkies, people think they can just walk over and pet them and I hate that. Get the hell away from my dogs. :whip:

My boy is a *very* shy little dog. If he comes to you then fine, go ahead pet him he likes you. But people who chase after him or corner him? Well these people have been bitten. He will growl and bear his teeth to warm them away but even at this stage they often just say "Oh! How cute! Look at him try to look tough!!" 

Morons. 

If my sisters friends come over the dogs will come out to play for a while, but if they want peace they go to another room. Ellie the youngest dog likes to hide in a cuboard. The girls will sometimes seek her out and drag her out. A nightmare. Ellie has never bitten yet, but does growl at them. 

Some people just refuse to listen. :bash:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

KathyM said:


> Drighlington toddler critical in hospital (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)
> 
> Woman's last comment about staffs is really sad. I don't know if anyone remembers but Bradford dog wardens were one of the first to react to the Liverpool attack with a "dangerous dog" amnesty and the wrongful seizure of dogs of "type" (mostly in this area american bulldogs and staffies). The dog warden has a real problem with bull breeds and top it off with a God complex and little education and no doubt we will again see their moronic reaction to this and fear for our dogs' lives again. Goes to show how well their dog amnesty worked though, doesn't it?


 
*"They have had the dogs for quite a long time and keep them locked up"*

If that comment from the article is true, then this is even more sad for the dogs concerned, as it doesn't seem they really stood a chance, does it?!


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

My thoughts are much the same as always...
What was a child that young doing anywhere near those dogs in there own home.

They will get the blame and will be distroyed because thats the easiest way out of this mess again.

And as for that woman on the news clip saying she thought they were ok and let her toddler feed them buscuits through the gate! Why would you ever do such a thing?

This type of thing just makes me see red. 
I just cant get over how stupid some people can be and because of them allot of us will end up loosing the breeds we love. It happened with the APBT's and it will happen with the rest, just you wait and see...


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## jazzywoo (Sep 24, 2009)

i have a collie all mouth no bite unless your running for the phone she will nip you bum as you run past and try round you up :whistling2::lol2:
anyway she get tied up in the drive where she will watch the world go by and relax, i went out one day and a little toddler was in the drive playing with missy his mum also in my drive i said excuse me but what the hell are you doing in my garden she said oh its ok he likes dogs :gasp:
i said no its not ok how would you like it if i walked into your garden and started petting your animals ? what if she turns and bites your son it would be me at fault and then you would sue us demand the dog be destroyed all because you cant respect our privacy and trespass on our property no get out :whip:
she said well if it bites it would be our fault of course it would be my silly fault for letting my 2 year old pet a strange dog :gasp:
well she left at that and hasnt done it since but it wasnt the first time and wont be the last ive asked people to get out of my garden and stop your kids playing with the dog :bash:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i blame the parents, the report says 'one of which is known to be unpredictable'. So if it's unpredictable, why leave a 2 year old at risk


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

sorry my post has nothing to do with the incident as i never belive all i read The true facts will never be put in black and white as it doesnt make a good story! ( i know from experiance)....


unfortuanlty staffys will be the most common breed of dog bite as there is so many around, although it has nothing to do with the bred apart from the quantity of them about.

In the 80's my Dad was a paramedic and the most common dog bite back then was by yellow labs or golden retrievers! 
funnily enough that was when they were the craze!


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

ladyboid said:


> sorry my post has nothing to do with the incident as i never belive all i read The true facts will never be put in black and white as it doesnt make a good story! ( i know from experiance)....
> 
> 
> unfortuanlty staffys will be the most common breed of dog bite as there is so many around, although it has nothing to do with the bred apart from the quantity of them about.
> ...


 
Obviously there are no figures for unregistered litters, but there were more than four times more labradors than Staffs registered with the KC in 2008. 

I hate to be judgemental, but I think these attacks have as much to do with the type of people buying these dogs as anything else.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

The most common type of dog in bite statistics is the average mongrel/crossbreed IIRC.


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

Not unexpected, but the poor dogs are to be destroyed

BBC NEWS | England | Bradford | Child attack dogs to be destroyed

Makes me so angry. I wonder what sort of life the poor things had. What a waste


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

midori said:


> Obviously there are no figures for unregistered litters, but there were more than four times more labradors than Staffs registered with the KC in 2008.
> 
> I hate to be judgemental, but I think these attacks have as much to do with the type of people buying these dogs as anything else.


I also agree that it has alot to do with the people buying the dogs than the breed themselfs.
my point was just the people that are into fad dogs are also the people who dont look after/ train their dog properly and this will show in the amount of reports being done on breed types, Also if there is more of this type of breeds around stats will show that more will be involved in these sorts of situations.

many many dogs are not Kc reg .. this doesnt reflect on whats on the streets unfortunatly.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> The most common type of dog in bite statistics is the average mongrel/crossbreed IIRC.


true if you add up all the bites

I was talking breed types though...
"unfortuanlty staffys will be the most common *breed* of dog bite as there is so many around, although it has nothing to do with the bred apart from the quantity of them about."


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

I disagree that the story has/will be blown out of proportion, at the end of the day a toddler is in a critical condition as a result of what has happened, and that is a very serious thing, regardless of how it happened. I also don't feel more sorry for the dogs than the child, I think anyone that says that just has mixed up priorities.

I do, however agree that this breed do not (as a breed) deserve all of the bad press and it needs to be on an individual case - deed not breed! Obviously dogs should not be left with babies and young children unsupervised. Really that is all it comes down too.

I really don't think that the majority of these "attacks" are down to untrustworthy dogs etc. I think it could be something as simple as, the baby cries and a breed such as a staffy sees that as an invitation to play. We all know that most dogs do like to play bite - the baby continues to cry and this encourages the dog more.

Has nobody seen how staffys play with their toys? They destroy them...

I think people sometimes read too much into things. There isn't always a problem with the dog, a lack of training, a lack of socialization (although I agree those problems can be common and are nearly as likely).

I would also agree that such breeds attract the wrong owners and so it is a vicious cycle...these people do not rear the animals properly and so these attacks are much more likely. And as their reputation for being hard, guard dogs that make you look tough grows, more of those type of people will buy them.

I have a pedigree staffy and I trust him with my life, he is well trained and a lovely dog. But I cannot say that left unsupervised with a crying baby he would not attack him/her. I'm sorry but that's the truth of it, and very few staffy owners would admit that. They can do so much damage and don't realize what they are capable of.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Same with any breed with regards to leaving them alone with kids though, not just staffies - any child left unsupervised with any dog is asking for trouble. 

Video: Cannabis arrests at house where dogs savaged two year-old boy - Yorkshire Post

Tethering dogs is known to increase the likelihood of them biting, never mind the connotation that these dogs were living on a street investigated for dog fighting, and the possibility of the owners having been involved in supplying drugs. Wonder if the possibility of the dogs having been given drugs (whether for fighting or through their trade) has been looked into - I remember it being a potential issue in the case of Ellie Lawrenson. Either way the biggest common denomenator is that these children keep being left unsupervised with dogs who they don't live with. Why would any mother leave their child unsupervised with any dogs, regardless of breed? I think legally parents like that should be held accountable and have other children removed from their care. A mother leaving a child unsupervised with a loaded gun wouldn't be treated as softly as these parents are!


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

The dogs are to be put down wednesday.

I probly shouldnt tell anyone but to be honest i couldnt care less. The dogs are being held at the kennels i work at. The female is terrified and the male a little grumpy which is to be expected.

They had bloods taken last night ( i wasnt there as i leave at 6 ) to see if they were on drugs, They are to be seen by a behaviourist tuesday, put down wednesday and sent to liverpool for a post mortum.


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

That's so upsetting. Must be so much more so for you Mark having seen the poor things.

Why even bother with a behaviourist if it's not going to save them, or is there any chance of a reprieve?

I know we still don't have all the facts but it's becoming pretty obvious that they didn't have much of a life or much of an owner


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Thw owner is likely to get away with it aswel as he handed the dogs over.


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## royal_girly (Apr 14, 2008)

just out of interest Mark how old are the dogs? Has girlie been spayed/bred from would you reckon... ? i'm betting the male was protecting his female and sparked it off, although if the toddler was left unsupervised who knows what happened. 
A sad situation for all involved, hope the poor child recovers, but agree with what everyone's said, deed not breed - Pitbulls first, Staffies/Rotties next? then who knows.... dread to think. 

Incidently i was reading a site yesterday VERY biased and VERY anti bull breeds, giving out false information and calling for bans all over the place listed my Bull breed the EBT with a picture alongside showing the mauling of a baby and it having to be shot dead... 'Bull Terrier mauls baby' 
There is no such breed as an ENGLISH bull terrier, they're simply Bull Terriers - so oh, oh i thought then saw the picture... EBT definitely. 
A quick google found the story and the dog was a pitbull terrier cross. But they'd just labeled the dog 'Bull Terrier' in the generic sense and wrongly matched a picture to the article, trouble is the generic 'Bull Terrier' as reported so often in the press is an ACTUAL breed and is mis leading, even though they probably mean Pit/Staff or any combination of cross breed! (sorry just a rant there, it does my head in!)


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## Cleospudtanshi (Aug 11, 2009)

My view...

At the end of the day ANY dog has the potential to bite, dogs CAN and WILL be unpredictable. NO child should be left unsupervised with a dog no matter how 'trustworthy' it may be.

SBT are notorious for being amazing with children so either they were provoked or they were brought up incorrectly. Infact they are one of only two breeds where their KC description states that are excellent with children (the other being the Chesapeake (sp.) Retriever)

It sickens me that its always the dogs fault. I very much doubt a dog will sit there and think 'mmm I might just bite that child's face off today' - there was a post mortem done on a rottie that had mauled a child, turned out the child had been sticking wotsits up the dogs nose, other dogs have been found with marbles down their ears - still dogs are meant to be able to put up with this and remain 'safe'. 

A boy (13 yr old) i used to go to school with tormented a rottie outside of a shop, the dog was known to be unpredictable. So what do you know? Boy ends up in hospital, scarred for life. Everyone takes pity on HIM! Dog is on death row. 

If the child is too young to know right from wrong it is down to the parents/gardian to be responsible. If the child/adult knows what theyre doing is wrong then i have no pity on them. 

Dogs need to be treated with respect they are dangerous animals in the wrong hands. All responsibility lies with the adults involved


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

royal_girly said:


> just out of interest Mark how old are the dogs? Has girlie been spayed/bred from would you reckon... ? i'm betting the male was protecting his female and sparked it off, although if the toddler was left unsupervised who knows what happened.
> A sad situation for all involved, hope the poor child recovers, but agree with what everyone's said, deed not breed - *Pitbulls first, Staffies/Rotties next? then who knows.... dread to think.*
> 
> Incidently i was reading a site yesterday VERY biased and VERY anti bull breeds, giving out false information and calling for bans all over the place listed my Bull breed the EBT with a picture alongside showing the mauling of a baby and it having to be shot dead... 'Bull Terrier mauls baby'
> ...


Bit i put in bold jus tto add Dobermanns held the limelight before Pitbulls :whistling2:

And the female looks to be pregnant so when she gets put down the pups will go too.

TBH you cant get anywhere near either dog as they are both terrified but the fear is more than likely to try and run where as the male looks as if he will bite but through fear not aggression.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Bit i put in bold jus tto add Dobermanns held the limelight before Pitbulls :whistling2:
> 
> And the female looks to be pregnant so when she gets put down the pups will go too.
> 
> TBH you cant get anywhere near either dog as they are both terrified but the fear is more than likely to try and run where as the male looks as if he will bite but through fear not aggression.


 
Most dogs do bite through fear, very fewa re genuinely aggressive. 

TBH, dreadful thought it sounds, if these dogs really are that scared, being PTS is probably the best thing for them. Their lives so far must have been pretty miserable and no point in bringing more unwanted pups into the world. I can't see Mum allowing anyone to get close enough to socialise them if she is so nervous and so they are also likely to turn out nervous/anxious aswell. 

People that bring dogs up to be like this should be proescuted. It is cruelty at the end of the day. However, the general public just see a child attacke dby a viscious dog, they don't look for the reasons why and nothign will happen to the owners of these poor dogs.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Those poor dogs : (

Thing is Bull Breeds do not do well in kennels at all. They either go crazy and do allot of jumping, barking and shouting or they go the other way and become very withdrawn. I would never assess a Bull Breed in a kennel environment.

Doesnt matter though, there is a line and these dogs have been forced to cross it, so now they must pay the price. Whilst the owners walk away.

All I know is that something more needs to be done and soon.

The Bull Breed number in my town has x 4 in the last year and last night I saw one of the biggest AM Bull Dogs I've seen with a group of young lads. I had hoped they wouldnt apear down here, but looks as if they have.

I just feel its like giving them a loaded gun, hell there are kids round here who go shooting and walk round with air rifles and I feel safer with them than coming up against these kids attached to a Bull Dog that size that size they have no control over.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

ladyboid said:


> sorry my post has nothing to do with the incident as i never belive all i read The true facts will never be put in black and white as it doesnt make a good story! ( i know from experiance)....
> 
> 
> unfortuanlty staffys will be the most common breed of dog bite as there is so many around, although it has nothing to do with the bred apart from the quantity of them about.
> ...


 
I think statistically Lab's still bite more people than any other breed followed by Collies (which get bored and nippy with that herding instinct.) Staffs/Rotts/Dobbies just make better news stories.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Been reading this thread and would like to put out an alternate view point...

Its always tragic when a pet attacks some one, and in this case it does seem to be bad parenting crossed with bad dog ownership that was a factor, but people are always very eager to jump to the dogs defense and become blinded to alternate factors. 

Breed of dog does influence attack behaviour as that is why we have breeds at the end of the day. My english pointer is the dopeyest friendliest dog ive ever had, but my other dogs, various mongrel crosses, and a doberman x collie were all alot more inclined to bite. they were all raised together in a similar fashion but the breeds bred to fight/herd/hunt always turned out more inclined to fight with dogs or people than the pointer.

A few years ago i was attacked by a random dog in the street with no provocation. it just legged it at me out an alley and bit my hands to pieces. I only escaped worse injury by hoofing it and jumping a tall fence.

Yes, usually it is the owners fault these incidents happen, but dont be so blind and always defend the dogs. Sometimes they are just bad dogs.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Been reading this thread and would like to put out an alternate view point...
> 
> Its always tragic when a pet attacks some one, and in this case it does seem to be bad parenting crossed with bad dog ownership that was a factor, but people are always very eager to jump to the dogs defense and become blinded to alternate factors.
> 
> ...



I do agree with some of your points.

Apart from there being bad dogs, there arent. 

There are bad owners who go out and by a Bull Breed pup with very little knowledge of the breed. And put very little into the Pup. Both of which can equal a dangerous animal. That isnt the dogs fault.

I do love my Bull Breeds, but as I have said before you would have to be a stupid Bull Breed owner to try and make them out to be something there not. They have allot of power behind them, they are also reactive and do not take any messing around.
They need a certain home, one who is knowledgeable of the breed and who will put the time and effort into them.

When I take mine out I am in full control of them all of the time. There safety, mine and other peoples is the most important thing to me. I would never put them in a situation where they would feel they would have to react.
And thats the main problem, too many people putting these dogs in situations where they feel they have to react.

I persoanlly feel that at this moment in time all Bull Breeds should be neutered, chipped and registered. So that the rescue organisations can deal with the amount there are in this country. And that something can be done about the types of people owning these dogs.
But sadly that will cost too much money. It will be easier to ban all Bull Breeds, neuter and register them and wait for them to die out.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

When i say there is bad dogs, i dont mean dogs that are bad from birth. All animals are born relatively equal, and it is thier upbringing which defines them. Some dog breeds are more likely to turn bad, bulls being among them, but it take a bad owner to turn them bad. 

My point on bad dogs, is that once they are bad (as the ones who attacked the kids are) they need to be destroyed. Its sad yes, but there is no point defending an animal that has been ruined by bad owners and is potentially still a threat to others. Ive worked with various animals not just dogs like this, once an animal has got away with aggresion towards humans, it WILL do it again because it knows it can get away with it. When its a rat, a guinea pig or a king snake, thats not a problem, it will always just be a bugger, but when its a dog, then its a different matter entirely


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Been reading this thread and would like to put out an alternate view point...
> 
> Its always tragic when a pet attacks some one, and in this case it does seem to be bad parenting crossed with bad dog ownership that was a factor, but people are always very eager to jump to the dogs defense and become blinded to alternate factors.
> 
> ...


99.9% of the time it's bad owners, not bad dogs.
The same as 99.9% of the time it's bad parents, not bad kids.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Caz said:


> 99.9% of the time it's bad owners, not bad dogs.
> The same as 99.9% of the time it's bad parents, not bad kids.


Id refute that statistic, i know a few owners who are respectable people, with nice families, well behaved kids, and a dog that is a danger to everyone not in the family. Some dogs are like that and will be agressive to non-pack members.

So i totally agree that most times it is bad owners, but my point was that often the dog can be to blame as well. But usually when this is the case it is the owners fault as even an agressive animal should not pose a threat if taken care of properly. Look at DWA animals... very dangerous - little injury. DWA owners recognise the threat and act accordingly. Most (bad) dog owners do not.

I realise i am most likely biased after being victim to a random dog attack, but i still think my point is valid. Bad Owners + Mistrained, badly chosen breed of dog = Danger to people. Same as any other animal. Dangerous dogs need DWA level of care (NO im not suggesting adding dogs to DWA... that is not goin to work...) or destruction.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Been reading this thread and would like to put out an alternate view point...
> 
> Its always tragic when a pet attacks some one, and in this case it does seem to be bad parenting crossed with bad dog ownership that was a factor, but people are always very eager to jump to the dogs defense and become blinded to alternate factors.
> 
> ...


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Even if you do actually believe that a dog is born more likely to have a bad disposition, it is years of breeding and poor choices that have made them like that, by humans, and therefore still human fault.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Just for the record, im not against staffies (or any breed of dog). Im not against dogs at all.

I just find it hard to understand how or why people can justify trying to rehabilitate seriously aggresive dogs. My point (maybe put across badly, im not sure) is this...

All dogs born equal and with (rightly or wrongly) a slight tendancy for aggression in some breeds.
With proper training and attention and husbandry all dogs can be excellent companions.

however without the above... and amplified in some breeds, poor care* will* result in an aggressive dog likely to harm in certain circumstances.
I know that ALL dogs can attack if provoked but sometimes provocation is unusually subtle or absent. usually in the traditionally agressive breeds (although this may be due to 'hard dog' syndrome with chavvy owners)

My Point is that once the dog has reached this stage it *IS* bad, regardless of how you spin it. these dogs are dangerous and do not need rehabilitating. they either need to be treat as a dangerous animal and housed securely with proper protocols in place for thier care, or euthanised.

I totally understand your points that every dog deserves a chance and no dog is born evil or bad, but with these dogs that have savaged children... how can we defend the dog? it has proved itself unfit to be treated as a pet, and needs to be treated as a DWA level of animal


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## Krista (Jul 18, 2009)

Hi All

Here we are again......I have followed this story and I find it very very sad. 

I do hope the Child recovers from the injuries sustained from these Dogs.

We have Bulldogs (old men now) and a Toddler....I have bought my dogs up on a training and reward system. They are well behaved, kind and loving...However, I would never leave my Toddler alone with them, all dogs have the potential to have a nip...they too can have off days just like us i.e not feeling well etc.

My Daughter understands that they have their toys and their bed/area and respects that.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of undesirables that have these lovely dogs as status symbols, and to use as a visual threat. In these cases it is Human fault rather than the Dog...punish the Humans..some get away with just a slap on the hand!!!! what is learned from that???? why not ban them from keeping a dog altogether???? I don't know....


Jingle Bells


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Not sure why Halcyon Inverts is saying some breeds are inherantly "bad", then in the next post saying all dogs are born equally. Which is it? You can't say in one breath that some breeds are born bad, then say they're all the same. 

As for registering bull breeds only, which someone suggested, that's just breed specific legislation, the fault is at the other end of the lead. 

Deed Not Breed - Home

If a dog attacks you in the street "without provocation", firstly there is always provocation (you may not see it as such but there is) and secondly that is still a human's fault. Dog shouldn't be out of control in a public place, that's illegal for all breeds. :whistling2:


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

*dog breeds*

some people talk as if the different breeds are different species:whistling2:
slightly off topic but did anyone else just watch you've been framed.The spaniel was pulling a toddler around the floor by the feet of it's all in one sleepsuit.Every one seemed to find this hilarious.To me it looked like the dogs instinct to drag and shake prey.Introduce a second dog to the hilarious noisy toddler shaking fun and who knows what could unfold.Irresponsible and naive in the extreme.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

I feel sorry for the child if that was my child being attack i would kill them dogs. The dog owners should of been watching the dogs but accidents do happen it's unfortunate. i do agree it's not the breeds fault anydog can be unpredictable i keep a gsd which is the breed that has been known to bite out of the blue so wouldn't dream of letting her near a child nor any other dog for that matter. there's not really much infomation on the article but it said the dogs are being put down which i do agree with.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

sarahc said:


> some people talk as if the different breeds are different species:whistling2:
> slightly off topic but did anyone else just watch you've been framed.The spaniel was pulling a toddler around the floor by the feet of it's all in one sleepsuit.Every one seemed to find this hilarious.To me it looked like the dogs instinct to drag and shake prey.Introduce a second dog to the hilarious noisy toddler shaking fun and who knows what could unfold.Irresponsible and naive in the extreme.


I did just see that but yet becaus eof its breed it sperfectly acceptable for it to do something like though..:bash:


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

ryanr1987 said:


> I feel sorry for the child if that was my child being attack i would kill them dogs. The dog owners should of been watching the dogs but accidents do happen it's unfortunate. i do agree it's not the breeds fault anydog can be unpredictable i keep a gsd which is the breed that has been known to bite out of the blue so wouldn't dream of letting her near a child nor any other dog for that matter. there's not really much infomation on the article but it said the dogs are being put down which i do agree with.


 
My last dog was a gsd x newfoundland ( flipping massive he was) and he was horrible around people he didnt know, When we walked him he was be muzzled and under control, IF someone was to come into the house he didnt know he would of had to be put int he back garden out of sight until we could properly introduce peopel to him without he attacking them.

Back to a dangerous dog.

Any dog caught acting aggressive ina public place comes under the dangerous dogs act whether it be Rottie,Dobermans,Staffy,Lab,Collie,JRT,Chichuhua (sp? can never spell it right lol ) or tea cup yorkie....:devil:


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> My last dog was a gsd x newfoundland ( flipping massive he was) and he was horrible around people he didnt know, When we walked him he was be muzzled and under control, IF someone was to come into the house he didnt know he would of had to be put int he back garden out of sight until we could properly introduce peopel to him without he attacking them.
> 
> Back to a dangerous dog.
> 
> Any dog caught acting aggressive ina public place comes under the dangerous dogs act whether it be Rottie,Dobermans,Staffy,Lab,Collie,JRT,Chichuhua (sp? can never spell it right lol ) or tea cup yorkie....:devil:


gsd and newfie i can imagen :gasp: my gsd hates people infact evey gsd i have seen has been aggressive or wary of strangers great dogs though. :lol2: an aggressive tea cup chichuha(can never spell it lol) would be something to see


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## MadFerret! (Aug 3, 2009)

It's the keeper's responsibility, in no way is it the dogs fault. Yes accidents happen, but it's down to the owners of the dog to take necessary precautions. A dog is an animal after all.

Say I have a 9 foot monitor lizard, do you think I'd let my child anywhere near it? Knowing that it could easily savage and kill the child if it decided it felt like doing so? No, I wouldn't.

I appreciate that there is a difference between the two scenarios, but I'm using it to illustrate my point. People often think dogs are all soft and cute, so they underestimate them, which can be a fatal mistake (as this goes to show). Dogs are live animals and whilst the majority are completely soft and wouldn't hurt a fly, a combination of child x animal is never a good mixture.

Most animals have the potential to harm other living creatures, just because they mostly don't, wouldn't be enough to convince me to put a vulnerable child in their presence unsupervised. Especially taking into account a child could easily provoke the dog without being aware of the fact that it's doing so. 

It's a tragic accident I must say, and I do feel for the parents, yet their child is their responsibility. It's an extremely hard way to learn a lesson and my heart goes out to them, but it is ultimately their own mistake. 

I have witnessed a friend get his leg torn apart by a dog in the past. The dog in question was a police dog nearing the end of it's service. It was highly trained and had performed brilliantly over it's career, yet it attacked my friend without provocation, simply because he panicked and ran when the dog was being exercised in a field.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Not sure why Halcyon Inverts is saying some breeds are inherantly "bad", then in the next post saying all dogs are born equally. Which is it? You can't say in one breath that some breeds are born bad, then say they're all the same.


I never said (or meant) that some breeds are bad. I said that some breeds are more likely to be aggressive towards non-pack members.

All dogs within each breed are born equal, most turn out good, some bad. 

Im not suggesting that all staffies are evil, or that all are good, just that some are bad and most are good. However in breeds like staffies there does seem to be more bad ones than bad ones from a non-combat bred dog breed.

I do agree that alot of the time humans are the cause, but you cant say 'well it should have been under control, so its the humans fault' because yes, it is the humans fault for letting it get out, but it is still an agressive individual if it then attacks someone while escaped. 

You say that there is always provocation?? I was walking down the street minding me own buisness when the dog jumped out a side alley and knocked me over and bit my hands while i tried to push it off. The dog was livid with aggression and was attacking with full ferocity from the start. i literally had to kick its head to break free and jump a fence. I cant believe that there is always provocation when i hadnt even seen the dog before it jumped me.

What im saying is, is that if you have a dog and its shown aggression it should no longer be classed as a pet, and you should think long and hard about how you care for it. if you can guarantee you can control it, thats fine otherwise permenant rescue at a center or euthanasia is the only responsible action. We can argue till the cows come home about the morals of it, but bottom line, if your dog is dangerous, proper control (including ethical destruction) WILL save lives.

(im talking about all dogs here, not just breeds predisposed to aggressive tendancies. i personally love staffies!)


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

MadFerret! said:


> I have witnessed a friend get his leg torn apart by a dog in the past. The dog in question was a police dog nearing the end of it's service. It was highly trained and had performed brilliantly over it's career, yet it attacked my friend without provocation, simply because he panicked and ran when the dog was being exercised in a field.


 bloody hell what actually happends if one attack you? can the police dog handler get any sort of trouble i'd personally kill the dog or at least snap his leg if i thought i was going to take some serious damage to get away if one attacks me would that meen i'd get in trouble for defending my self against one i have always wanderd what would happen if an accident like this accured


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It's such a shame people still believe that there's such a thing as a "bad dog", let alone a "bad breed". So I have to totally disagree with HalcyonInverts. It's a shame that someone clearly intelligent could believe that.

Even if a breed is born more likely to be aggressive to humans (which I disagree with, especially staffies who are specifically bred to be GOOD with people hence being known as the nanny dog), who bred it? Who selected for that at each generation? They didn't just evolve that way!

There is no such thing as a "bad dog". There is a bad owner, a bad breeder, a bad trainer....

As for "non-pack members"...humans aren't part of a dog's "pack". Dogs are not that dim.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> You say that there is always provocation?? I was walking down the street minding me own buisness when the dog jumped out a side alley and knocked me over and bit my hands while i tried to push it off. The dog was livid with aggression and was attacking with full ferocity from the start. i literally had to kick its head to break free and jump a fence. I cant believe that there is always provocation when i hadnt even seen the dog before it jumped me.


Of course there was provocation, it's just not provocation you were aware of. I didn't imply intent lol! You think a dog just decides to attack for no reason at all? Of course not, what a silly idea. :lol2: And why should the dog get the blame? Is a dog subject to human morals and laws? Is it heck as like - any attack by a stray dog is the fault of the owner and not the dog. Dog's are not subect to fault as they don't know better, and it's ignorant to say they do. 



> What im saying is, is that if you have a dog and its shown aggression it should no longer be classed as a pet,


What should a dog that is fear aggressive be classed as? A piece of furniture? An object with no further emotion invested into him/her? Or are you saying they should be put down for chasing cats, biting other dogs, etc? I can't understand this mentality - clearly you have no experience with dog rehabilitation (and obviously you aren't a believer anyway lol). 

Noone was arguing about control, but let's face it, anyone who blames a dog for not being under the control of the owner is a sodding moron.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Of course there was provocation, it's just not provocation you were aware of. I didn't imply intent lol! You think a dog just decides to attack for no reason at all? Of course not, what a silly idea. :lol2: And why should the dog get the blame? Is a dog subject to human morals and laws? Is it heck as like - any attack by a stray dog is the fault of the owner and not the dog. Dog's are not subect to fault as they don't know better, and it's ignorant to say they do.
> 
> 
> What should a dog that is fear aggressive be classed as? A piece of furniture? An object with no further emotion invested into him/her? Or are you saying they should be put down for chasing cats, biting other dogs, etc? I can't understand this mentality - clearly you have no experience with dog rehabilitation (and obviously you aren't a believer anyway lol).
> ...


Ok... well i seemed to have touched a nerve there... Didnt mean to upset the apple cart. I merely wanted to put across an alternate view point from someone who has been at the recieveing end of a random dog attack. I can tell you its not nice and you struggle to trust dogs again. Perhaps if you get attacked by a random dog you will change your mind.

Since i was exhibiting 'normal' behaviour by walking down the street, any provocation was therefore within the realms of normal human activity. If normal human behaviour provokes a dog that is a sad day for all involved as that is un-arguably a dangerous animal.

You make a big point of asking what i would class a dangerous dog as... i thought id made that clear. A dangerous dog should be treated like any other DWA type medium sized mammalian carnivore and kept either in a paddocked enclosure, secured room, or given to a center that can provide this. It should lose its right to be with humans in a 'traditional' sense. Try getting attacked by a dog, then argue this point with me.

I dont mean to upset or annoy anyone and of course these are just my views and wouldnt try and impose them on anyone. However once youve been on the recieving end, your view should change.

My interest is obviously in the invert and herp world, where the dangerous species are heavily licensed. That has undoubtedly saved lives.

At the end of the day, if tighter control on dangerous dogs saves just one life, how can you argue against it.


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## niliano_05 (May 7, 2009)

it has to be down to the owner. My OH uncle has a staffie and the kids sit on him but he fine with it. I have a sharpei and she is fantastic with my 3 yr old and 11 month old but saying that i wouldnt ever leave them unattended, its down to the way u bring the dog up you bring it up correctly and the dog will respect u for that, if you dont the dog has zero respect for you and others and has no sense of loyalty therefore will attach without warning.

Staffies are gorgeous dogs and very loyal and this has to be something down to the parents of both the dog and the child.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Ok... well i seemed to have touched a nerve there... Didnt mean to upset the apple cart. I merely wanted to put across an alternate view point from someone who has been at the recieveing end of a random dog attack. I can tell you its not nice and you struggle to trust dogs again. Perhaps if you get attacked by a random dog you will change your mind.
> 
> Since i was exhibiting 'normal' behaviour by walking down the street, any provocation was therefore within the realms of normal human activity. If normal human behaviour provokes a dog that is a sad day for all involved as that is un-arguably a dangerous animal.
> 
> ...


You seem to be keen 1. to assume that I've never been involved in a serious dog attack and 2. that the dog is the one to "blame". I don't think I can change the latter as it's obviously ingrained in an irrational nature into your psyche. The former I can say you're very wrong on, I have more experience in the case of a dog attack on a child in the home (which is what this thread is about) than I care to, and even I can still be rational and blame it on the owner (me in that case). :bash:


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

ok, well we will have to agree to disagree. I have stated multiple times that it is often the owners fault, but at the end of the day the animal is still dangerous regardless of how badly it was brought up or how well its controlled. the dog still chooses when to attack.

I just dislike the attitude of dogs being blameless when every other mammal capable of inflicting such painful/fatal injuries is heavily restricted by law. Dogs are dangerous animals if brought up wrong and the naive attitude regarding them as harmless pets is fatally flawed and irresponsible.

you say you have witnessed attacks on children... how can you advocate dogs as safe then??? Dogs hurt more people than almost any other animal, yet people still treat them as harmless. Where is the logic in that???

Dogs have the capability of killing: regardless of training, upbringing, or control, they ARE dangerous

thats the last ill say on the matter.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> ok, well we will have to agree to disagree. I have stated multiple times that it is often the owners fault, but at the end of the day the animal is still dangerous regardless of how badly it was brought up or how well its controlled. the dog still chooses when to attack.
> 
> I just dislike the attitude of dogs being blameless when every other mammal capable of inflicting such painful/fatal injuries is heavily restricted by law. Dogs are dangerous animals if brought up wrong and the naive attitude regarding them as harmless pets is fatally flawed and irresponsible.
> 
> ...


i agree with what you have written. any dog can be unpredictable the alsation for example is actually a breed that has been known for unpredicable biting on some occasions. soon as a child is attact by a dog you get all these dogs lovers saying straight way it wasnt the dogs fault! i think it's wrong yes sometimes is bad owners but i don't care what anyone says a dog no matter how friendly people think it is has the potential to attack.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Halcyon - I dont think you understand. You may not have provoked the dog, but it didn't get dangerous on its own. It must have been poorly bred, poorly raised, and poorly socialised. And it was his owners fault for letting him loose.

No-one is disagreeing that dogs have the potential to be dangerous, we're just saying if it gets as far as biting - that is down to the owner for either not training it properly, or not keeping it secure.

I dont think I can put that any more simply for you, so I hope you understand now. Otherwise this thread will get incredibly frustrating :lol2:

I still stand by the fact that no dog is born bad. If you disagree that's your right, but it's mine to think you're naive.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> ok, well we will have to agree to disagree. I have stated multiple times that it is often the owners fault, but at the end of the day the animal is still dangerous regardless of how badly it was brought up or how well its controlled. the dog still chooses when to attack.
> 
> I just dislike the attitude of dogs being blameless when every other mammal capable of inflicting such painful/fatal injuries is heavily restricted by law. Dogs are dangerous animals if brought up wrong and the naive attitude regarding them as harmless pets is fatally flawed and irresponsible.
> 
> ...


I find your posting manner frustrating because you change your stance every post lol - you said at the beginning that some breeds are dangerous, namely bullbreeds, and that others were not. You then said all dogs of all breeds are born equally, but you were attacked unprovoked by a "bad" dog, and the dog was to blame despite being allowed out unsupervised. I only pointed out that no dog bites for no reason (whether that reason is justifiable in human terms or not is irrelevant) and that dogs are not subject to human law, nor can they understand them, so there is no such thing as a "bad dog", or a dog that should be held responsible for an owner's failings.

Where did I say that dogs were entirely safe? Nowhere. But neither will I sit here and agree that some breeds are dangerous and others aren't when that's a crock. Neither will I ever believe it is the dog's "fault" that they broke rules humans set and humans broke. It's ridiculous to blame an animal for biting. 

For the record the dog that badly attacked my son was not of a breed that you would deem "dangerous" with your ignorant attitude. And despite me seeing no human reason for him attacking him, he did so for "normal" canine reasons. While I would've happily rung his neck personally, I put my feelings aside and he was rehomed safely and saved from the fate these dogs weren't saved for. If these dogs had been collies or poodles, they wouldn't be being put down and the story would've never made the news. The papers weren't chasing me about my "devil dog" when Dan suffered facial injuries - noone gave a damn then. Had he been bitten by a staff he'd have been all over the news.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

just to point out i never said some breeds wernt dangerous, just that some are more inclined to turn aggressive and are therfore more dangerous than other breeds.

I totally understand where you are coming from, with dogs not obeying human laws etc but you seem to be failing to grasp my point that even stepping outside the realm of blame, a dog that is badly trained and aggressive should be removed from a position of danger. Im not ragging on staffies or any other bull breed, nor am i suggesting they are dangerous, merely that some of the bull breeds seem more prone to aggression.

there are two arguments happening here that are getting mixed up,

1. i was saying that some breeds are more likely to turn aggressive
2. that dangerous dogs shouldnt be defended once they have shown severe aggression towards people.

try to seperate those two factors. 

Im not trying to blame dogs for aggression, thats what dogs do, they are carnivores. what im saying is, Why defend an aggressive dog blindly saying it shouldnt be destroyed because its the humans fault its angry. It is undoubtedly usually the humans fault, however the dog is still dangerous and needs destroying

I have said all i want to say on this now, so will leave you to raise your dogs properly and you can get back to blindly defending bad dogs from families who didnt raise them properly. If you want to look after a dog thats known to be a danger thats fine, but for me personnaly it would be destroyed. As any dangerous animal roaming the streets would be.

Im sorry that this has become so frustrating for you, and im sorry for assuming you had no experience with dog attacks. At the end of the day this is a public forum and i am entitiled to express my opinion on dogs and thier safety. I think we are coming at this from different ends of the spectrum and clashing in the middle. As niether one of us is going to agree i will refrain from posting further.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

A well controlled dog with an aggressive past is not a danger to the public. That was my point. I can't comment on what to do with "bad" dogs as I don't believe in them - nor do I believe that dogs attack humans because they're carnivores (they're not after eating them pmsl). Sorry but we'll just have to agree to disagree - push any dog and it will bite, should they all then be destroyed? Sorry, but it's just rubbish. Dogs shouldn't die because their owners are pants. When a person uses any other weapon (purposefully or accidentally), the person is held responsible - it's only when the weapon is a dog that we turn a blind eye and punish the innocent animal. In the end the victim and the dogs suffer for the crimes of the owner. That dog that bit you wasn't a bad dog, it was a failed one, and in the right home it would have been no danger for you at all. The owner broke the law, and you're crying out for the dogs to be killed. You're focusing on the wrong end of the lead.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

PS: I know you said you didn't want to post again but I do have a question for you. 

When you said all aggressive dogs should be destroyed, can you define what acts would justify this? How about dogs that are aggressive to other dogs, or cats, or small animals? What about the dog that snatches food off a child? How about the dog that's backed up in a corner terrified and bites out of fear?

When you consider the many reasons a dog will bite, you realise there is no blame to be had with the animal. The only dogs to me that may not be safe to be kept alive are those that are unpredictable through untreatable illness or brain damage. Eg. true rage syndrome sufferers.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

sorry maybe i should have clarified that much earlier. When i say a dog should be destroyed i am refering to incidents like what this thread was about, when a dog severely attacks people causing extensive damage. A simple snap, out of irratability is not aggression, and when a dog is backed into a corner, that is merely defense. i was meaning when a dog targets a person with no, little or innapropriate provocation. a child petting a dog should not be suffiecient provocation for an attack, and i would label that dog dangerous. a child hitting a dog in the snout would be expecting a bite, and that wouldnt be a dangerous dog, just a really pissed off one.

i do understand where you are coming from, really, but i cant help but feel that trying to rehabilitate a dog that has attacked a person unjustifiably is just risking another attack in the future

Hope that clarifies my previous posts


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> sorry maybe i should have clarified that much earlier. When i say a dog should be destroyed i am refering to incidents like what this thread was about, when a dog severely attacks people causing extensive damage. A simple snap, out of irratability is not aggression, and when a dog is backed into a corner, that is merely defense. i was meaning when a dog targets a person with no, little or innapropriate provocation. a child petting a dog should not be suffiecient provocation for an attack, and i would label that dog dangerous. a child hitting a dog in the snout would be expecting a bite, and that wouldnt be a dangerous dog, just a really pissed off one.
> 
> i do understand where you are coming from, really, but i cant help but feel that trying to rehabilitate a dog that has attacked a person unjustifiably is just risking another attack in the future
> 
> Hope that clarifies my previous posts


how would you feel about a dog that is aggressive through fear then would you paint them in the same colour, would you class them as dangerous and demand them to be murderd because its there own fault for being like that??


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

sorry not sure what you are trying to say...

If your saying that a dog made to attack through fear should be put down, it would depend if it was under a sustained abuse from a bad owner, or if its a one off incident of fear.

A dog who attacks because he has been beaten routinely by a bad owner is probably beyond help and should be euthanised,

a dog hit in the face by a child, and this has never happened to the dog before, is just reacting to a new and unwelcome stimulus so should be better trained


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> sorry maybe i should have clarified that much earlier. When i say a dog should be destroyed i am refering to incidents like what this thread was about, when a dog severely attacks people causing extensive damage. A simple snap, out of irratability is not aggression, and when a dog is backed into a corner, that is merely defense. i was meaning when a dog targets a person with no, little or innapropriate provocation. a child petting a dog should not be suffiecient provocation for an attack, and i would label that dog dangerous. a child hitting a dog in the snout would be expecting a bite, and that wouldnt be a dangerous dog, just a really pissed off one.
> 
> i do understand where you are coming from, really, but i cant help but feel that trying to rehabilitate a dog that has attacked a person unjustifiably is just risking another attack in the future
> 
> Hope that clarifies my previous posts


It does clarify them and I do appreciate your honesty and you coming back to answer my questions, but I can't agree with you.

I don't understand how a dog is supposed to know that attacking a dog out of fear is acceptable but attacking a child out of fear isn't? I also don't understand how a dog is supposed to interpret your morals and know that biting a child under one circumstance is ok but biting a child under another isn't? I appreciate that they don't *have* to know they've done "wrong" to be put down for it, but you're saying that one thing is acceptable and another isn't, even if the cause is exactly the same. Fear is fear. Fear can also be worked on. If the owner is happy to take the risk of rehabilitation and the dog is under control in public, what does it matter to you if that dog lives?

Also, how does one determine the cause of the attack and "punish" accordingly under your guidelines? You just can't. You can't ask a dog why it bit someone.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> a dog hit in the face by a child, and this has never happened to the dog before, is just reacting to a new and unwelcome stimulus so should be better trained


Hang on - the dog gets hit in the face and reacts fairly, and the DOG should be "better trained"? Are you for real? I would say the child learns a valuable lesson about animal abuse, and the dog should not be punished. Perhaps the dog would deserve a better home under these circumstances.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

oh god no, i know what your saying, but if a dog bites under my 'acceptable' criteria it just means it dosnt need euthanasia, it still requires proper training to stop that sort of behaviour occuring again. im not saying any bite is acceptable, just if the cause is unjusitifed (i.e. something it wont encounter in a normal life, like people hitting it, or abusing it) the dog is, in my opinion, a danger


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Hang on - the dog gets hit in the face and reacts fairly, and the DOG should be "better trained"? Are you for real? I would say the child learns a valuable lesson about animal abuse, and the dog should not be punished. Perhaps the dog would deserve a better home under these circumstances.


yes, better trained, a dog should know what it can and cant bite. not a hard thing to train into a dog...

anyway, im out, this debate isnt going anywhere for either of us, so again, i take my leave and wish you my best regards.

Andy


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> yes, better trained, a dog should know what it can and cant bite. not a hard thing to train into a dog...
> 
> anyway, im out, this debate isnt going anywhere for either of us, so again, i take my leave and wish you my best regards.
> 
> Andy


It's hard to put human emotions in a dogs brain, but seriously, if somebody came up and pulled your ears or smacked you round the face, would you just walk on because you're not supposed to cause harm to other people?! I think not. It is perfectly acceptable for a dog to bite in defence if said dog is hit, be it kid, baby or adult!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> yes, better trained, a dog should know what it can and cant bite. not a hard thing to train into a dog...
> 
> anyway, im out, this debate isnt going anywhere for either of us, so again, i take my leave and wish you my best regards.
> 
> Andy


Seriously? As someone who is pretty "in" to training dogs, I would love to know how you reliably train a dog not to bite when beaten? Actually, I really don't want to know how you'd suggest it, I can guess. :bash:

Hear hear L4L, I think some people just expect far too much from an animal and I hope they would refrain from having a dog if that's what they expect of them - it's setting a dog up for failure, then killing it for doing what is frankly acceptable.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

KathyM said:


> Seriously? As someone who is pretty "in" to training dogs, I would love to know how you reliably train a dog not to bite when beaten? Actually, I really don't want to know how you'd suggest it, I can guess. :bash:


*Dont you dare insinuate id beat dogs to train them*. you do not know me, or my animals so keep you thoughts on me as a person to yourself.

If a child cuffs a dog, it is niether painful nor something to show agression over. i didnt mean when a child beats a dog, like with force and causing pain to the dog, i just meant in the way children can sometimes be a bit too rough petting dogs


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> A dog who attacks because he has been beaten routinely by a bad owner is probably beyond help and should be euthanised,


I will probably regret getting involved in this, however I feel I have to respond to this comment......many years ago I took on a severely abused dog. He had been used as a 'bait' dog, as well as being beaten and abused by his owner almost every day of his life. He had multiple broken bones and was covered in scars and open infected wounds. He was 7 when I got him and had spent all those years tethered to a washing line in the back garden living off scraps.

It took a hell of a lot of patience, love and hard work for him to become the trusting and loving dog he was. He adored everyone and everything..... just as long as he was off lead. On lead he was immediately defensive and scared (for obvious reasons).

I sadly lost him to old age at the age of 22....yet by your reckoning he should have been put down before ever being given the chance to _live._


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> If a child cuffs a dog, it is niether painful nor something to show agression over. i didnt mean when a child beats a dog, like with force and causing pain to the dog, i just meant in the way children can sometimes be a bit too rough petting dogs


It can still cause fear in the animal. I would suggest in that situation the childs needs to be better trained! I would never allow a child to do that to any animal in my home....


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## leggy (Jan 18, 2007)

My lads use to fall on my old Rotti not on purpose. There where times when a toddlere or baby might grab an ear or her nose :gasp: all the time Maggy wouldent even growl. She was never alone with a child but i could trust her 100% But if a dog was to hurt her or p**s her off she would not put up with it.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Hear hear L4L, *I think some people just expect far too much from an animal *and I hope they would refrain from having a dog if that's what they expect of them - it's setting a dog up for failure, then killing it for doing what is frankly acceptable.


Funny you should say that, actually. I was just thinking the other day how people act as if they have the rights to an animal, or as if they were forced to get a dog (or they are doing the dog a favour, rather) and as such that dog should do what they say whenever, even down to completely useless and stupid things. I think some people need to understand the fact the dog never asked to live with them, nor did they particularly want to be put in that situation, so the dog shouldn't be expected to do totally silly stuff for the happiness of it's owner.



Mirf said:


> I will probably regret getting involved in this, however I feel I have to respond to this comment......many years ago I took on a severely abused dog. He had been used as a 'bait' dog, as well as being beaten and abused by his owner almost every day of his life. He had multiple broken bones and was covered in scars and open infected wounds. He was 7 when I got him and had spent all those years tethered to a washing line in the back garden living off scraps.
> 
> It took a hell of a lot of patience, love and hard work for him to become the trusting and loving dog he was. He adored everyone and everything..... just as long as he was off lead. On lead he was immediately defensive and scared (for obvious reasons).
> 
> I sadly lost him to old age at the age of 22....yet by your reckoning he should have been put down before ever being given the chance to _live._





Mirf said:


> It can still cause fear in the animal. I would suggest in that situation the childs needs to be better trained! I would never allow a child to do that to any animal in my home....


:notworthy::notworthy:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Cheeky-x said:


> ..i think MAYBE licensing would be a better option, stop the yobs getting hold of them and using them as status symbols!!


 So exactly how would a licence stop unsuitable people from getting dogs? It didn't stop them before so why would it if it was reintroduced again?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> *Dont you dare insinuate id beat dogs to train them*. you do not know me, or my animals so keep you thoughts on me as a person to yourself.


Erm, excuse me, it was you who insinuated that. You said it was easy to train a dog not to bite when hit. You tell me how you do that without hitting them? No? Didn't think so!



> If a child cuffs a dog, it is niether painful nor something to show agression over. i didnt mean when a child beats a dog, like with force and causing pain to the dog, i just meant in the way children can sometimes be a bit too rough petting dogs


Oh right, so now a dog not only has to distinguish between who he's allowed to bite and who he's not allowed to bite, but he has to be able to tell whether he's being hit out of nastiness or by accidental over-zealousness? And it's still the dog's fault when he gets it wrong, and not the child or the parents for allowing them to hit a dog? Come on, you're not that daft are you? I think you're winding people up for a laugh, in which case bravo, we're laughing at you lol! :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I would hope that any dog would bite a child that hit it. Might teach the child not to do it again, and the owner to keep a better eye on said child.

And yes, that's said as a mum of 5. Sky would have happily bitten anyone who hurt her, and good for her. She was beaten and left to die chained up on an allotment. I think she had a damn good reason to want to bite someone!


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

LoveForLizards said:


> Funny you should say that, actually. I was just thinking the other day how people act as if they have the rights to an animal, or as if they were forced to get a dog (or they are doing the dog a favour, rather) and as such that dog should do what they say whenever, even down to completely useless and stupid things. I think some people need to understand the fact the dog never asked to live with them, nor did they particularly want to be put in that situation, so the dog shouldn't be expected to do totally silly stuff for the happiness of it's owner.


Oh I don't know about that. Another of my dogs (who I took on at 9 months) was never let out of the kitchen, was left alone for 13 hours a day from the age of 7 weeks, was never walked, was not house trained, was fed one meal a day (again from 7 weeks of age), did not know know the basic commands, had never seen a vet or a worming tablet and who was going to be destroyed at 9 months old......could 'speak' and 'give paw':whistling2::whip:


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Laugh all you want, i like to see well behaved dogs that do not kill children and at the end of the day thats what you all like to see also.

I know dogs can be trained to not attack children when children are playing roughly with them without hitting the dog. Its called your voice... raise it!!!


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

reading back a few post im gob smacked.

If a child was to come up to my dog and slap him in the face and Barni to turn around a bite it i would punish the child for doing it in the first place and by pass Barni all together.

I like to see well trained behaved dogs but i also think its nice for a dog to have a personality too. I cant stand training dogs to do as its told and nothing else.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> reading back a few post im gob smacked.
> 
> If a child was to come up to my dog and slap him in the face and Barni to turn around a bite it i would punish the child for doing it in the first place and by pass Barni all together.
> 
> I like to see well trained behaved dogs but i also think its nice for a dog to have a personality too. I cant stand training dogs to do as its told and nothing else.


even if that personality allows it to snap at children??? Come on people are we not just starting to argue for arguing sake here? surely you dont mean that youd have a dog in a state where you are unsure if it wud bite children
and just for the record i never said the child wudnt be in trouble too!


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> I know dogs can be trained to not attack children when children are playing roughly with them without hitting the dog. Its called your voice... raise it!!!


Why would you allow the child to 'play roughly' with the dog in the first place though??????

You need to show mutual respect and allowing a child to possibly scare any animal by being rough is not doing that.....

Do you not see that?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Mischievous_Mark said:


> The dogs are to be put down wednesday.
> 
> I probly shouldnt tell anyone but to be honest i couldnt care less. The dogs are being held at the kennels i work at. The female is terrified and the male a little grumpy which is to be expected.
> 
> They had bloods taken last night ( i wasnt there as i leave at 6 ) to see if they were on drugs, They are to be seen by a behaviourist tuesday, put down wednesday and sent to liverpool for a post mortum.


if they are to be killed on Wednesday why stress the poor buggers out by taking blood and seeing a behaviourist? Leave them be. Why is it that too many cases like this and cruelty cases etc seem to happen up north? There is a band of rescue centres down here who take hundreds of maltreated and abandoned dogs from Sheffield and other northern dog pounds and most are in a right flipping state.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> I do agree with some of your points.
> 
> Apart from there being bad dogs, there arent.
> 
> ...


 There are bad dogs. Just like there are mad or bad people. Why should dogs not also suffer from mental problems which make them nuts , mad or bad? Not every dogs is a sweet innocent creature who would only be driven to bite because it was owned by a bad person. There are bad owners and there are bad dogs.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

HalcyonInverts said:


> even if that personality allows it to snap at children??? Come on people are we not just starting to argue for arguing sake here? surely you dont mean that youd have a dog in a state where you are unsure if it wud bite children
> and just for the record i never said the child wudnt be in trouble too!


You said before that it is "easy" to train a dog to not bite children, I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate.

ANY and EVERY dog will bite with the right provocation. If you allow children to hit a dog or "play roughly" with one, you are not fit to have either. :whistling2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

ryanr1987 said:


> gsd and newfie i can imagen :gasp: my gsd hates people infact evey gsd i have seen has been aggressive or wary of strangers great dogs though. :lol2: an aggressive tea cup chichuha(can never spell it lol) would be something to see


 I have a Rottweiler cross Newfoundland (my Ursa) who has the nicest and gentlest nautre I have ever known in a dog. I have also had a GSD in the past and he too was a friendly calm and outgoing dog even with strangers. Perhaps someone in your area is churning out GSD with bad temperaments if you have only ever met nasty ones?


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> if they are to be killed on Wednesday why stress the poor buggers out by taking blood and seeing a behaviourist? Leave them be. Why is it that too many cases like this and cruelty cases etc seem to happen up north? There is a band of rescue centres down here who take hundreds of maltreated and abandoned dogs from Sheffield and other northern dog pounds and most are in a right flipping state.



Because those that get to play god want to know who to point the finger at.

If they send a behaviourist in with the dogs and they show any sign of aggression its obvious the dogs are bad dogs who were always going to attack.
And so there seen as not over reacting and distroying the dogs straight away as they have in the past.

Thing is like I said Bull Breeds do not do well in kennels. They have gone through a horrific incident, been taken out of there home by strangers, shoved in a very strange environment with lots of other dogs, people and strange smells. How do they think they are going to react?

We use to deal with a pound up north, I've never in my life seen dogs in such a state as those we moved from that pound. Some were dying when we took them on there last day. Also allot had been used for fighting. There is quite a big problem with Bull Breeds and dog men up north : (


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

:2wallbang: this isnt going anywhere.

this has all got so mixed up that its becoming counter-productive

Children shudnt hit dogs, i never said they should

Dogs shudnt bite children, i never said they should

Never said id let anyone hit anything, im thinking of families with poor control on both kids and dogs

Again, ive said everything im wanting to say. You guys have your moment, i cant keep coming back with arguments against your point of view because it is a valid one. not my one, but im not going to say your wrong. If you think you can save every dog, you just do that. My whole point originally (before this all got dragged out) was that i think some dogs are beyond help if you ever want to integrate them back into a home situation. I never advocated total euthanasia, as i have said before, just in the worst dogs, most other will be safe in rescue centers.

there thats it! Go back to your dogs and peace out!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

HalcyonInverts said:


> Laugh all you want, i like to see well behaved dogs that do not kill children and at the end of the day thats what you all like to see also.
> 
> I know dogs can be trained to not attack children when children are playing roughly with them without hitting the dog. Its called your voice... raise it!!!


 Why cannot you train your children not to play rough with a living creature?
When my son was 2 years old, he was bitten on the ear by my toy poodle after I had specifically told him to leave the dog in peace under the table with his bone. He went under the table, the dog bit his ear and then he got his bum slapped off me for disobeying me and not letting the dog eat in peace.
The dog lived a long life and never bit him again. My son is now 36 and as great an animal lover as I am and he learned not to force his attentions onto an animal which wanted to be left to eat in peace.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Why cannot you train your children not to play rough with a living creature?


Please read my above post. i never said id let my children play rough with a dog. i was refering to the families that tend to have problems with child/dog control


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

There is so much wrong with that 2nd to last and last post HI that I am just going to take a deep breath and leave it, it's not worth it. We'll just leave the vets and rescues to mop up the mess humans make, and blame it on the dogs. Well you might, I won't.

Fenwoman - unfortunately the Ellie Lawrenson case had a knock on effect especially in West Yorkshire, where police wanted to look like they were doing something, but did everything wrong. This latest attack goes to show how pants they are at dealing with the real problems. There's just as much happening "darn sarf", there's worse puppy farming down your way and into Wales, every area has its problems. Ours are incompetent police and dog wardens.


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

marthaMoo said:


> Because those that get to play god want to know who to point the finger at.
> 
> If they send a behaviourist in with the dogs and they show any sign of aggression its obvious the dogs are bad dogs who were always going to attack.
> And so there seen as not over reacting and distroying the dogs straight away as they have in the past.
> ...


There are bullbreed problems all over the country, not just up north. 

For example, on another forum, some one said they'd recently visited Birmingham dogs home, and apart from a few dogs, nearly all of the 3 floors, were staffs, or staffy crosses. 

Also, is it not London that has its own status dog unit, so obviously, they must have a problem to, and dog fighters occupy all parts of the country, you may not see it, or hear about it, but they are there. 

Every area has its good and bad, wether that be dog owners or rescue centres or pounds, you can't judge them all badly because 1 or 2 are disgusting.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ooh no - not only are dogs born bad, most bad owners are northerners (dont tell me - they're "townies" too Fenwoman?!).

HI - if you're so easily upset by people having a differing opinion to you, why not take your own advice and leave the thread (as you said you had several posts ago). It's an open forum, you will find when people post in ignorance, some people may correct them and help try and educate them.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I wasn't trying to "educate" anyone, was just disagreeing. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Didnt say you were. I was though. I think ignorance is self imposed though - and do believe some people would prefer to be ignorant and blame an animal than educated and realise there's much more to it.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> if they are to be killed on Wednesday why stress the poor buggers out by taking blood and seeing a behaviourist? Leave them be. Why is it that too many cases like this and cruelty cases etc seem to happen up north? There is a band of rescue centres down here who take hundreds of maltreated and abandoned dogs from Sheffield and other northern dog pounds and most are in a right flipping state.


They want the bloods to see if the dogs were on drugs :bash: and a behaviourist to prove they are nasty and the attack was unprovoked.


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

Im not upset!

And i am open to education, several of you have posted stories of how you have rehabilitated badly treated dogs and thats great, especially Mirf's dog. I am impressed with that.

Im afraid that my opinions have been twisted by some people on this thread to insinuate they are more militant than they really are, and my trying to justify them has been equally twisted. I know i have a differing viewpoint on how to deal with the worst cases of dangerous dogs, but all the stuff about me letting children beat dogs was pure fantasy twisted from my original posts. As was me saying that all dogs are evil, and that i want to murder all dogs that are grumpy or snappy.

KathyM has provided me with an alternate viewpoint to my own and i must admit her argument has partially swayed me, however i do still think some dogs are beyond help.

This has been one of those unfortunate threads where posts have been mis-read, or mis-interpreted and the impersonal method of forum comminucation has allowed people to make thier own minds up about what ive been saying, without reading it in the context it was intended

Also ive tried to leave a few times but people keep posting questions to me and its rude not to reply!!!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I think most things are better debated over a pint of Guinness, that's an open offer if anyone's ever round this way lol. :2thumb:


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## HalcyonInverts (Jul 22, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I think most things are better debated over a pint of Guinness, that's an open offer if anyone's ever round this way lol. :2thumb:


100% agree with you on that one! Guinness for the win!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

See, we have summink in common! Yay for guinness bringing the world together. :no1:


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## Gemstone Dragons (Jul 29, 2009)

It is worth also concidering that when uch smaller dogs bite, yorkies, jack russels, chihuahua's etc its deemed cute or funny and not reported to the relevant authorities thus making the 'this breed bites more' figures unacurate.

Also 'Chihuahua mauled yet another toddler' or 'Viscious Yorkie puts grandma in hospital' doesnt sell papers like 'Out of control Staffy X (most having no staffy in them!) attacks school children'.

Also note bites is often replaced with mauled or attacked for effect.


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## Tazer (Aug 10, 2009)

My views on this topic.

I hope the kid recovers, and that he isn't to adversely affected by the experience, because the last thing the bullbreeds need, is another person growing up to be terrified of staffy's, because of the owner/parents irrisponsability. 

On the subject of bad dogs, and what should happen to human agressive dogs.

I don't think there are bad dogs. Dogs are dogs, and will act accordingly. They like all other animals, humans included, are products of their environment. Although breeds may have certain trates associated with them, e.g collies herding drive, it is the environment in which they are raised that will determine how much of this behaviour is displayed. 

In cases of human agression, nothing is gained by placing human thought processes on to a non-human animal. I think any human agressive dog should be evaluated and rehabilitated if possible, though in the case of rescue centres, this may not always be posible, due to the time and money that would be needed. 


There are simple things like muzzling dogs when in public if they are human agressive, that protects both dog and people from getting into conflict with each other.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I cant have guiness. But will have a cup of your special coffee wot has a head like a guiness.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

A little update these dogs havent been put to sleep yet.

they are saying the male is a 1/4 pit bull...

The female has really come round she no longer growls at anyone and the male has his days but is slowly coming around we can get in a fully clean them both out now without any thought that theyll bite us ( thats not to say we are not aware of the cirumstances and are extrmemly careful around them, we can just be a little more relaxed about it )


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

Do you think there's any hope for them Mark?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

How would they know that the male is 1/4 pitbull as I find it very confusing when they say pitbull type.
Years ago my neighbour had the sweetest litte Boxer cross, she was so sweet natured and a dog I would have loved. She was picked up by the dog warden as she got out but they wouldnt let the owner have her back as they said she was a pitbull type and put her to sleep aged 6 months:bash:


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

Yes, I was thinking that too. 1/4 pit bull - that's very specific. I mean the dog's hardly going to have papers and a traceable lineage is it!

Just something they'll use as another justification for pts I suppose.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

vonnie said:


> Yes, I was thinking that too. 1/4 pit bull - that's very specific. I mean the dog's hardly going to have papers and a traceable lineage is it!
> 
> Just something they'll use as another justification for pts I suppose.





Shell195 said:


> How would they know that the male is 1/4 pitbull as I find it very confusing when they say pitbull type.
> Years ago my neighbour had the sweetest litte Boxer cross, she was so sweet natured and a dog I would have loved. She was picked up by the dog warden as she got out but they wouldnt let the owner have her back as they said she was a pitbull type and put her to sleep aged 6 months:bash:





vonnie said:


> Do you think there's any hope for them Mark?


 
Well thats the police for you them know everything, However they didnt go in the kennel with the dog(sp) they just stood outside trying to get the "best" measurements they could.

And im afraid there is no hope they will evenutally get put down when the police stop with their power trip.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

A dog doesnt have to be a pitbull to be deemed as pitbull type. Like a tape measure can tell you what a dog is....stupid bloody people.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

The dogs are meant to be assssed by specialists.
TBH there are only a handful of people I know in this country who could really tell and I would class as specialists (this is mainly down to there being so many different bull breeds and crosses that its been made very difficult to tell). And yes it is also down to measuring certain bones in the dogs body.

I have no idea why they are keeping these dogs alive if there is no one trying to help them and nothing can be done.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If you see the checklist they have to use to work out whether the dog is pitbull or not you'd see how ridiculous it is. A pedigree lab could come down as pitbull type.

Experts or not, a tape measure isn't going to give a definitive answer on what breed a dog is. Many a mongrel will be pitbull "type" and never have any pitbull in them.

Stupid stupid laws.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Ill update tomorrow after i get back from work.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

None of this gives me faith in West Yorkshire Police, although they are well known for their shoddy work on the dog front (and on many other fronts, try living in their area lol). They can't identify a dog by standing outside its cell. It might not make a difference to these dogs fates considering they've actually been involved in an attack, unlike the many other dogs WYP have had a hand in slaughtering over the last few years, but if that's how they're identifying these two, how did they identify the dogs in the amnesty? "Ooo I'm not going in there, shall we just say it's a pitbull and have the bugger put down?" Sounds about right! :bash:


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Oppps i didnt get up today for work what am i like lol

Ill have to get a update tomorrow instead


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

Still with us havent been "Murderd" yet.


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## Mirf (May 22, 2008)

Those poor dogs must be terrified.


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