# PRK = hmmm



## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

In this issue of prk they reccomend a basking spot for white tree frogs?! I thought that was not really advised...


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

its ok. they can stand the dry air and it wont damage their skin if they dont sit directly under it. One of mine got behind the background and slept up against the glass with a 45 degree heat mat on it and it didnt burn him!


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

I think they'd love it. I'd give mine one with a lowish wattage heat bulb if I could afford another socket.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Uhm, it does kind of raise a questiont hough, as in why would a NOCTURNAL frog species want a basking spot? lol Heck, mine vanish the minute it gets light. They used to bask as young uns, but as adults they prefer a nice dark hide in the day.

Ade


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> Uhm, it does kind of raise a questiont hough, as in why would a NOCTURNAL frog species want a basking spot? lol Heck, mine vanish the minute it gets light. They used to bask as young uns, but as adults they prefer a nice dark hide in the day.
> 
> Ade


I was thinking that, mine just hide all day.

I know the don't need it 'that humid, but I thought a basking spot would dry the air fast.
I have a hard enough job as it is trying to keep good humidity in my gecko tank.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

do you have one for your milks? coz I read they need one as well, or at least 'enjoy' one :lol2:


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

No I don't, and they are fine... they need it realitvly humid though and I don't know any other keepers of them that use a basking light, even the breeder I got them from didnt have one.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

That's cool yeah, found it on here treefrogs - Care Sheets Information about Amazonian Milk Frog Aquatic/Land treefrogs ,characteristics and sexing, Description of Diet, Diet-Carnivorous,Supplements, Nutrition and Usage - calcium and vitamins, Lighting and UVB,Tempatures and Humidity,

I guess there's no reason why NOT as long as you have a waterfall to maintain humidity  - otherwise like you said, it would be difficult to maintain the humidity.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Yeah, imo they don't need it because they are also nocturnal.... mine are fine without, they have uv though.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

brysaa2 said:


> That's cool yeah, found it on here treefrogs - Care Sheets Information about Amazonian Milk Frog Aquatic/Land treefrogs ,characteristics and sexing, Description of Diet, Diet-Carnivorous,Supplements, Nutrition and Usage - calcium and vitamins, Lighting and UVB,Tempatures and Humidity,
> 
> I guess there's no reason why NOT as long as you have a waterfall to maintain humidity  - otherwise like you said, it would be difficult to maintain the humidity.


That site, I see anyone can add/ edit care sheets!


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

id have a look who wrote the article I was intrigued by the uv with amphibians theory's until I realised it was written by Arcadia


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

My sauvagii have a basking spot that reaches 100F +. The humidity directly beneath that is around 30%, the rest of the viv is around 40-50%

I don't think it's necessary but I do think White's would enjoy basking under a heatbulb so I don't think it should be discouraged.


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> No I don't, and they are fine... they need it realitvly humid though and I don't know any other keepers of them that use a basking light, even the breeder I got them from didnt have one.


It is advised by many keepers to have a basking light for Amazons, we have one on the way. They are a canopy species so will bask up in the trees when sleeping. I am pretty sure Mbar keeps his with a Basking light and also when Saedcantas(ex-mod/herpologist) was asked this question by myself she said it is a good idea to get one.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

hmm ok then, I won't be getting one anytime soon though... they seem fine for now and obviously the breeders ones were fine without. That and I've not got anymore plugs! I have extention leads running off extention leads!


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

sambridge15 said:


> id have a look who wrote the article I was intrigued by the uv with amphibians theory's until I realised it was written by Arcadia


I wrote the article.

As with all reptiles and amphibians, what works for one animal may not always be suitable for another - it's down to the owner to be able to evaluate and adjust their setups as needed. I've kept and bred White's for 10+ years and descibed their husbandry according to what has always worked for me, including the use of low wattage incandescent basking bulbs to create warm areas in large enclosures, however this is intended to be a general guide and doesn't have to be taken as gospel. If someone feels their frogs don't need a basking bulb then that's totally fine - I'm not going to argue or tell you that's 'wrong' as everybody's husbandry is slighly different! As long as the frogs are happy then that's all that matters : victory:


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

9Red said:


> I wrote the article.
> 
> As with all reptiles and amphibians, what works for one animal may not always be suitable for another - it's down to the owner to be able to evaluate and adjust their setups as needed. I've kept and bred White's for 10+ years and descibed their husbandry according to what has always worked for me, including the use of low wattage incandescent basking bulbs to create warm areas in large enclosures, however this is intended to be a general guide and doesn't have to be taken as gospel. If someone feels their frogs don't need a basking bulb then that's totally fine - I'm not going to argue or tell you that's 'wrong' as everybody's husbandry is slighly different! As long as the frogs are happy then that's all that matters : victory:


Fair enough, I enjoyed reading the artical and I only bought the mag because it had frogs on the front :lol2: i can't honestly see my whites using a basking spot though to be honest, but thats just mine.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Oh really? well thats a bit silly then I didn't notice that. What's your milk tank like?


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

Jazzy B Bunny said:


> Fair enough, I enjoyed reading the artical and I only bought the mag because it had frogs on the front :lol2: i can't honestly see my whites using a basking spot though to be honest, but thats just mine.


Glad you enjoyed it - the dermatology article in that issue is one of mine as well : victory: 

Just goes to show how funny these animals are and how each have their own individual preferences, and it's always interesting to compare different husbandry techniques. For example I've got a tank of _Hyla cinerea_ that really love having a slightly warmer basking spot than usual - especially the biggest male, while a similar group belonging to my friend are much happier at cooler temps than are usually recommended for the species, yet both groups are healthy, bright and active.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Yeah, Mine go totally loony when the lights go out but during the day they just sleep behind the plants normally out of sight. 
How long did it take you to write the articals?

@brysaa: I have a heat mat on the side, then an exo terra canopy light unit with a 5 and 2% uv bulb.


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## 9Red (May 30, 2008)

They don't take long - usually do them in the evenings when I have a spare hour or so, then the magazine take them and make them all pretty and add in photos etc - Sometimes they get the pics a bit wrong lol but given they only have a small production team I think they do a pretty good job with the magazine overall. They're always looking for new contributors so if you or anyone else fancies writing something you can always give me a shout and I'll email the editors' details to you. :2thumb:


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## stewie m (Sep 16, 2009)

i used a cermic heat bulb on a stat as thats what i was recamended 

but every one on here told me i should change it for a heat mat so thats what i use now


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> It is advised by many keepers to have a basking light for Amazons, we have one on the way. They are a canopy species so will bask up in the trees when sleeping. I am pretty sure Mbar keeps his with a Basking light and also when Saedcantas(ex-mod/herpologist) was asked this question by myself she said it is a good idea to get one.


I've kept whites and milks for many years, although I'm sure it won't be convincing enough for some people, in my experience these two species' husbandry is incredibly similar. 

Who says amphibs don't like UVB or heat?


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> I've kept whites and milks for many years, although I'm sure it won't be convincing enough for some people, in my experience these two species' husbandry is incredibly similar.
> 
> Who says amphibs don't like UVB or heat?
> 
> ...


great pics! One of my milks is sleeping right under the uvb bulb right now. My white's prefere to sleep under cover of leaves or the tree stump I have in the tank i've never seen them bask ever.


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## stewie m (Sep 16, 2009)

one of my whites all ways sleeps under the uv bulb


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

None of my whites sleep under the uv bulb, but one of my milks does.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Hmmm, looking at those pics, and purely for discussions sake, I can see a few reasons they MIGHT be basking, I am not saying any of them are fact, just throwing the ideas out there:-

1) They don't have an awful lot of choice, given that it's that or sit on the bottom of a bare viv. That's the only other horizontal surface in there.

2) I don't see a heat mat or any other source of heat in there? So maybe just maybe that they are getting their warmth the only way they can, by moving closer to the lights.

3) Now this is pure supposition, and could be totally wrong, but maybe frogs that bask under UV get less D3 in their diets than those that chose not to bask under UV? I am pretty certain that frogs are known to be able to control D3 levels in this way.

Please do note that none of these are a dig at how you keep your frogs, they look very healthy to me. At the end of the day the how doesn't really matter unless your frogs aren't healthy, and those clearly are.

My White's definitely DON'T bask since becoming adults, ever. They tuck themselves under some sloped cork, up a corner that happens to be near the heat mat, which is why I think warmth may well be a BIG factor here on whether frogs bask or not. I started out with just 1 mat on the bottom when they were youngsters, and they slept up near the top, right under the lights. I then added another mat to the side, and after a few weeks (within which time they tripled in size. lol) they had moved to the sleeping spot they have used ever since, all cuddled up together.

Ade


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

My room is heated by an electronic heater set to 25 degrees when the lights are on the tanks go up to 27 degrees so my milks tank was hot enough lower down but my frog still slept right under the mesh by the uv light and there's plenty of other places to pick from.


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## serpentsupplies (Sep 4, 2009)

ipreferaflan said:


> My sauvagii have a basking spot that reaches 100F +. The humidity directly beneath that is around 30%, the rest of the viv is around 40-50%
> 
> I don't think it's necessary but I do think White's would enjoy basking under a heatbulb so I don't think it should be discouraged.


i completely agree and don't think you could put it better. think about where they actually come from! and how hot it can get there


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> 1) They don't have an awful lot of choice, given that it's that or sit on the bottom of a bare viv. That's the only other horizontal surface in there.
> 
> 2) I don't see a heat mat or any other source of heat in there? So maybe just maybe that they are getting their warmth the only way they can, by moving closer to the lights.
> 
> 3) Now this is pure supposition, and could be totally wrong, but maybe frogs that bask under UV get less D3 in their diets than those that chose not to bask under UV? I am pretty certain that frogs are known to be able to control D3 levels in this way.


No worries Ade! With only those two pics to go on the three conclusions you've drawn are pretty fair, I took for granted that there's a fair bit of backstory on our work with amphibs and UVB and that the people on the forum have previously seen all kinds of pics from me! 

These particular resinifictrix are in quarantine, hence the very very basic setup, although our normal rearing and adult enclosures are not vastly more decorated. The individuals on exhibit may be better photo candidates to dispell those three potentials, I don't have photos at the moment which show the lighting angle in relation to where the frogs are chosing to sit in the open, but we deliberately position the Megarays over the exhibits to provide basking spots and we do measure the actual UVB exposure in uW/cm2 at these points. 



















The three points;
1) The horizontal bamboo pole running directly parallel with the 10% Reptisun tube above was placed specifically to allow these frogs to get even closer to the light. There is a second horizontal pole behind it which does allow them to sit prettymuch out of the reflection zone should they choose to. These frogs are more than happy to sit on vertical, irregular, steep surfaces or simply on the floor (but they wouldn't sit on soil or moss.)


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

2) This enclosure is in space heated facility, heated to an ambient temp of 26C, in addition to this and the fluorescent tube, they also have a 60W Megaray suspended over the front right area, allowing them access to a similarly high UVB zone, but also up to a basking spot of 32C.

3) Frogs can certainly choose to up regulate their UVB exposure in response to low levels of D3 or Calcium, it is self limiting and therefore much safer than via the dietary route. 
These individuals are fed on subadult black/brown crickets and Dubia roaches every two days, every single feed is dusted with Nutrobal.

Because I'm unable to present people with a finished paper, I understand that it is often difficult for people to take it on as they simply don't have the full picture, I do try to provide as much supportive evidence as I can.

Decide for yourselves  Either way a line of milk frogs sure is cute!!!

Lotte***


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

I followed saedcantas' recommendation to provide a horizontal perch under the light source in our amazon milk frog tank and they always chose to sit under the light. Given the oppurtunity they do tend to use it from what I have seen.


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## Blue Lizard Reptiles (Jul 9, 2010)

Saedcantas said:


> Who says amphibs don't like UVB or heat?


Not me!

I've got Cubans and whites who despite loads of great place to sit, choose to wedge themselves behind the bulbguard for at least 80% of the day!


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Two more pics because why not


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

hmm I'm considering white's myself now. I have a 45x45x60 exo sitting empty now. It has a 10% Reptisun tube, though no basking spot.

So is the consensus that either a heat mat or a spot bulb is fine or that they require the latter?

Oh and by the way, I note those photos show quite open enclosures(not tons of foliage), do they prefer more open space? I could add more perching opportunities and remove plants..as currently it has a mixture of real and fakes which take up a significant amount of space.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Hi Lotte, thanks for clearing that up.

You wont find me arguing about heat etc, and I myself have UV over my White's and 3 of my other vivs, I just find my White's don't bother with it at all.

White's don't need as much humidity as say darts either, so a basking lamp wouldn't be as harmful as some folks think. I keep my White's at between 50 and 60% humidity, I NEVER mist them, this humidity is maintained purely through having a water area and drainage layer with a heat mat on the bottom. So as long as the keep kept an eye on humidity I can't see it becoming a risk. In my experience if White's start feeling dry, and have a bowl or water area they'll take a bath anyway.

I was just trying to figure out if there was some pattern between those who's White's bask and those who like me have frogs that hide away in the lit times. I couldn't possibly comment on Amazon milk frogs, I've never kept them and as I've said before on here I wouldn't even try to pretend I knew anything about them that wasn't just somebody elses opinions/experience.

My White's have a horizontal perch directly under their lights as well, 1 5.0 and 1 2.0 26 watt compact. They only ever sit on it when the lights are off. The minute it starts getting light, they're into their sleeping corner under their cork bark, up by the mat on the side. Daytime temps in there are 25 degrees on the cool side, 30 degrees right up against the mat.

I might even try a basking spot myself, to try to get a more even temperature gradient, yet. Only other way I've found is turning the heating up, and I find 24 degrees Celsius rather unconfortable. lol

Oh and yeah I figured they were quarantine set ups.  The numbers, and labels with dates of fecal samples is a give away. 

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Hehe I love the way Lotte makes her points without *ever* coming over as argumentative- it's a skill!:no1:

I don't have basking spots as such in my frog tanks, but I have noticed that my golden treefrogs happily roost up near the top under the lamp- I use a halogen desk lamp. (Incidently, did I read somewhere that halogen bulbs produce a certan amount of UV? Just wondering.) My whites used to roost anywhere that seemed comfortable, under the light or not, and even hollowed out a space in the substrate, sometimes. I do remember that years ago, when I kept anoles and green treefrogs together, the treefrogs would 'catch some rays' early in the morning, then shuffle off to hide themselves as the day got going.

PRK is incredibly variable- and does suffer from the same 'I know best' problem as here, but it is pretty useful, in terms of peoples experiences. In this months issue, there is a fascinating article on reptile senses (was that you, too, Red?) but also one on amphibian parental care that is (at the risk of offending a fellow poster:whistling2 frankly, pants.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Ron Magpie said:


> Hehe I love the way Lotte makes her points without *ever* coming over as argumentative- it's a skill!:no1:


LOL! Must be the all improved new version of me Ron, people didn't seem to see it that way in the past! :whistling2:

Cheers matey!


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> LOL! Must be the all improved new version of me Ron, people didn't seem to see it that way in the past! :whistling2:
> 
> Cheers matey!


 
Definitly mellowing with age i think Lotte, got to be honest though i quite liked the old version :whistling2:


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

Lotte is fabulous :flrt:


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