# New Auratus Viv Progression



## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Just thought I would post a couple of pics of the Auratus viv so far.

Background is Gorilla glue and eco earth mixed with orchid bark. Iv'e got that big bit of wood stuck into the background as well. Going to get some xaxim panels bash them up this weekend add the substrate. 

Just need some leaves, might go to the woods and see if I can find any, shame it's summer.

What do you think so far then?










http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a380/miserable_penguin/DSC05462.jpg[img]

[img]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a380/miserable_penguin/DSC05463.jpg


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## KJ Exotics (Jun 16, 2007)

Looking good, how big is it ?? 
GG the pain of my life, every time i do it bits fall off


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

KJ Exotics said:


> Looking good, how big is it ??
> GG the pain of my life, every time i do it bits fall off


Thanks its a 40x40x40. I love the stuff its brilliant, I much prefer it to coco panels and stuff. I've not tried foam but seems too much work tbh. I'm going to stick to what I know.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Thanks its a 40x40x40. I love the stuff its brilliant, I much prefer it to coco panels and stuff. I've not tried foam but seems too much work tbh. I'm going to stick to what I know.


 too much work,ha thats the crack me ol' mate,ok young mate:lol2: tis a good start Matty,don't worry about the leaves mate,tis oak and its been hellish dry get your ass down to the woods mate you'll find:2thumb: got some last week,just a wee thought mate might be a bit small,if they grow like zorro has,and i guess they should be bigger,'im agonising abit meself over there gaff 3 in a 50x50x40high,that said they must be pretty happy ...eggs an' all,but you know me i'll always worry over this:whistling2:. and find yourself some moss too mate,look for the stuff on ash/oak seems to work,i'll try and find that thread if i can mate but gonna try and play moss meself in a mo. once we've noshed,i am spread a bit thin at pres,and a few film canasters might help later,thats what ours have chosen as egg sites,cut some white in half and pop em inside the black,makes life so easy when you get there,even though am jealous as hell still best of luck with them!!
Stu


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## s6t6nic6l (May 15, 2010)

all i can see is that wood being made into a little water feature, that apart, nice work.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Only thing I can say/suggest is *more plants*!:lol2:

On the leaf litter (as opposed to leaf*mould*) issue, it occurs to me that in all the tropical countries I lived in as a kid, you rarely saw drifts of leaves- or at least not for long. Dimmo me, I noticed that leaves were broken down really quickly in my warmer tanks by custodians- native or introduced, but I still didn't make the mental connection till recently. So dart tanks with 'pretty' leaf litter may not be too authentic...


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> Only thing I can say/suggest is *more plants*!:lol2:
> 
> On the leaf litter (as opposed to leaf*mould*) issue, it occurs to me that in all the tropical countries I lived in as a kid, you rarely saw drifts of leaves- or at least not for long. Dimmo me, I noticed that leaves were broken down really quickly in my warmer tanks by custodians- native or introduced, but I still didn't make the mental connection till recently. So dart tanks with 'pretty' leaf litter may not be too authentic...


Agreed more plants! Looking really good though. 

I was lucky enough to grow up in the Caribbean there were many species of broadleaved trees, I never remember them dropping their leaves I suppose they didn't need to as the 'winters' were never harsh enough, plus with so many predators (crickets, caterpillars etc) they didn't get the chance to hit the ground. I'm going to check with some of my family still out there, the few leaves I did see on the ground were always very waxy & I never saw loads piled up anywhere


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Only thing I can say/suggest is *more plants*!:lol2:
> 
> On the leaf litter (as opposed to leaf*mould*) issue, it occurs to me that in all the tropical countries I lived in as a kid, you rarely saw drifts of leaves- or at least not for long. Dimmo me, I noticed that leaves were broken down really quickly in my warmer tanks by custodians- native or introduced, but I still didn't make the mental connection till recently. So dart tanks with 'pretty' leaf litter may not be too authentic...


Don't worry there are more plants going in once the substrate is in. I wouldnt have it with jus these :lol2: I am also going to be adding moss. I just like the look of leaves it makes it look good.whenever I have seen programs the rainforest floor is covered in twigs leaves etc. I will update once I have more in there. A couple of the plants are in with them in the temp tank.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Don't worry there are more plants going in once the substrate is in. I wouldnt have it with jus these :lol2: I am also going to be adding moss. I just like the look of leaves it makes it look good.whenever I have seen programs the rainforest floor is covered in twigs leaves etc. I will update once I have more in there. A couple of the plants are in with them in the temp tank.


Not niggling mate at all! But in 'real' tropical situations termites ants and all the other consumers break things down really fast- tropical forest soil is usually really shallow as a result- which is why 'slash and burn' is such a problem. I've seen a lot of laterite messed up areas. In our case it just means keep on putting in the leaves. Incidentally I saw very few earthworms- guessing they couldn't compete.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> Only thing I can say/suggest is *more plants*!:lol2:
> 
> On the leaf litter (as opposed to leaf*mould*) issue, it occurs to me that in all the tropical countries I lived in as a kid, you rarely saw drifts of leaves- or at least not for long. Dimmo me, I noticed that leaves were broken down really quickly in my warmer tanks by custodians- native or introduced, but I still didn't make the mental connection till recently. So dart tanks with 'pretty' leaf litter may not be too authentic...


Look at more pics taken of habitats the actual dart frogs come from, they are actually FULL of leaf litter, possibly because it's replaced faster than it can be broken down been in a rainforest.  As to the breaking down, that's where your springtails and woodlice get some nice food from. So yeah, in most dart frog tanks leaf litter is VERY authentic, much more so than carpets of moss.  As to it been pretty, I used leaf litter more because the frogs LOVE it! They become bolder and more active with than without.

Matt, have a look on Pollywog. He has some nice 'different' leaves on there. I got some coco leaves from him, which really helps to add a degree more authenticity to the leaf litter, and they last a LOT longer than oak or magnolia will.

Here's a hint to boost your floor space, I used the method in on of my newer thumbnail vivs and in my pumilio viv. Basically instead of putting a lip to keep your soil from falling into the gully, fill the gully with some hydroleca (and a bit on your slope) and cover with weed fabric. You can then extend your soil right up to the step vent, giving your frogs extra floor space whilst retaining the advantages of the sloped bottom and drainage gully. :2thumb: You would be surprised how much extra floor space this gives you. The only reason to retain the gully is if you are going to allow it to fill with water, but as most folks pull eggs/tadpoles it's just wasting floor space. 

Good start, and good choice on the Gorilla glue. If it falls off, it's not been put on right is all.: victory:

Ade


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Here's a hint to boost your floor space, I used the method in on of my newer thumbnail vivs and in my pumilio viv. Basically instead of putting a lip to keep your soil from falling into the gully, fill the gully with some hydroleca (and a bit on your slope) and cover with weed fabric. You can then extend your soil right up to the step vent, giving your frogs extra floor space whilst retaining the advantages of the sloped bottom and drainage gully. :2thumb: You would be surprised how much extra floor space this gives you. The only reason to retain the gully is if you are going to allow it to fill with water, but as most folks pull eggs/tadpoles it's just wasting floor space.
> 
> Good start, and good choice on the Gorilla glue. If it falls off, it's not been put on right is all.: victory:
> 
> Ade


I was going to do this but I have blocked the drainage hole off but I suppose I will still be able to drain it the same way I do my leucs and fantastica tank. I was a bit worried anyway about letting it fill with water too much because I didnt want the frogs going in there, and not being able to get out. Might still do it then.

I had my last tanks made without false bottom so I used all hydroleca bottom with weed membrane. 

I had a look on pollywogs website but didn't really see much I liked.

Yeah never had any problems with gorilla glue I have used it for 3 tanks now and will be doing more still.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Look at more pics taken of habitats the actual dart frogs come from, they are actually FULL of leaf litter, possibly because it's replaced faster than it can be broken down been in a rainforest.
> Ade


This. Plus it's not just small leaves, some of them are well over 2ft, that's going to take a long time to break down.

Good luck with that Begonia, bet ya can't get it as big as mine :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> This. Plus it's not just small leaves, some of them are well over 2ft, that's going to take a long time to break down.
> 
> Good luck with that Begonia, bet ya can't get it as big as mine :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Well I have a T5 UVb light that supposed to help plant growth, its the Arcadia ones. I will be happy with just some growth and nice color to be honest. Plus dont really wanna get it that big, it will take over the tank. Can you take cuttings from them at all?


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## Brendan01 (Jun 29, 2010)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Well I have a T5 UVb light that supposed to help plant growth, its the Arcadia ones. I will be happy with just some growth and nice color to be honest. Plus dont really wanna get it that big, it will take over the tank. Can you take cuttings from them at all?



Yes you can take cuttings, if you get the propagation trays with the clear lids to hold humidity and fill it with a damp sandy soil.
Cut a leaf off, 
Chop the stalk down as close to the leaf as possible but leave a few mm,
Place the leaf on a cutting board with the under side facing up & with a knife score across any large veins (try to not cut all the way through the leaf),
Place the leaf face up into the soil (with the remaining stalk in the soil),
Firm the soil around the stalk,
place some small stones around the out side of the leaf to hold it in place,
water well then leave until new shoots sprout from the leaf.,
then move to a plant pot.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Brendan.


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Brendan01 said:


> Yes you can take cuttings, if you get the propagation trays with the clear lids to hold humidity and fill it with a damp sandy soil.
> Cut a leaf off,
> Chop the stalk down as close to the leaf as possible but leave a few mm,
> Place the leaf on a cutting board with the under side facing up & with a knife score across any large veins (try to not cut all the way through the leaf),
> ...


Excellent, thats lots of help thank you.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Might give that a try.


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## Brendan01 (Jun 29, 2010)

Glad i could help :2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> This. *Plus it's not just small leaves, some of them are well over 2ft, that's going to take a long time to break down.*
> 
> Good luck with that Begonia, bet ya can't get it as big as mine :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 you'd be amazed.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> you'd be amazed.


 real interesting obsevation Ron,not having been there its cool to have someone explain/point out, this stuff,whom has experianced rainforests.What i do know is i am amazed how much our darts use the leaf litter to hunt in,and also how the top layer manage to dry out,providing some dry footing,if only for a while before the wet gets though the leaf.I love the way a thread starts with a chat about a viv and morphs with these little interesting details,good on ya guys:2thumb:
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Really surprised how bold these guys are actually, and they have been eating nicely. They don't run away when I approach them its brilliant. Who says auratus are shy. Although I have heard el cope are the bolder ones.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Really surprised how bold these guys are actually, and they have been eating nicely. They don't run away when I approach them its brilliant. Who says auratus are shy. Although I have heard el cope are the bolder ones.


 well most of them Matty,i saw the shyest elcope ever recently,mate i reckon its got something to do with the rearing.But hell our super blues vary from a lass we simply do not see(also responsible for the eggs) one that is shy but getting bolder,and a big old bold fella.but none compare to the mysties,whom simply don't give a :censor::lol2:
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> well most of them Matty,i saw the shyest elcope ever recently,mate i reckon its got something to do with the rearing.But hell our super blues vary from a lass we simply do not see(also responsible for the eggs) one that is shy but getting bolder,and a big old bold fella.but none compare to the mysties,whom simply don't give a :censor::lol2:
> Stu


I wanted some mysties and saw some at the show but the only place that had them were 75 each and all of his were more expensive then everyone else around. They are AMAZING though, I want some and i am extremely jealous of yours. If you breed some I will be interested in the future. I would have bought them if I had the money.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

That was Musty's table Matt, and pretty sure that £75 for a mistie is actually seriously cheap. He had Ameerega Bassieri Sisa on there as well for the same price (but with a note that they were been sold as a group) which is definitely cheap. 

If you are going to get properly into darts Matt me old bud, you'd best get used to spending more than that on frogs.  Or just keep common ones. lol I was drooling over those Ancon Hill Auratus myself, but I'd only got a suitable viv that morning, still not done anything with it yet. lol

I am with Stu though, upbringing and also conditioning have a lot to do with how bold frogs are. My Sisa are MEGA bold, but considered a shy morph, they came from Gaz though and I have them exposed to a LOT as they are in a display viv in my living room. Two of them actually sleep on brom leaves right by one of the front corners. My Alanis tincs though were MEGA shy when I got them, and are only just becoming bolder now. El Cope though are definitely one of the nices auratus morphs, and look stunning on leaf litter. 

Ade


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> That was Musty's table Matt, and pretty sure that £75 for a mistie is actually seriously cheap. He had Ameerega Bassieri Sisa on there as well for the same price (but with a note that they were been sold as a group) which is definitely cheap.
> 
> If you are going to get properly into darts Matt me old bud, you'd best get used to spending more than that on frogs.  Or just keep common ones. lol I was drooling over those Ancon Hill Auratus myself, but I'd only got a suitable viv that morning, still not done anything with it yet. lol
> 
> ...


Yeah they were cheap for mysties, everything was very cheap, they were just slightly higher priced than some of the other breeders there. Yeah I can't go too mad on darts at the moment so I am getting some of the cheaper mirth. Once I have got more room I will be able to spend more money and get some of the mire expensive corps like mysties. 

Everything there was A LOT cheaper than everywhere else. Just a shame i had a budget and the mysties were a little out my range.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Yeah, budgest are such a pita. 

Perhaps some vents next? Gorgeous frogs, don't need huge vivs (I keep most of mine in 30x40x40s) and are usually fairly cheap from breeders.  I paid rather more on the 2 proven pairs I bought there (still cheaper than retail though. lol), but I didn't mind as they are definitely proven (as in they appear to be 'getting busy' already... lol).

Ade


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

It's all about the pure black Auratus.


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Well that's it for darts now until we move out unfortunately. I am happy with what I have now though.


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> It's all about the pure black Auratus.


Not seen them, what is there name?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Morgan Freeman said:


> It's all about the pure black Auratus.


For me it's the Ancon Hill and the Mebalo. :no1: I actually think that the 'black' tinctorius Lorenzo (without the yellow noses) are nicer than the Black Auratus.: victory:

Ade


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Not seen them, what is there name?


D. aurauts 'black'. Morph 14 on here Dendrobates auratus Morphguide.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> It's all about the pure black Auratus.


 I'd like to know whom has them!!! sndf breed them,buts thats blummin usa.....cobblers eh. 
I got a bit of baggage that concearns price guys,although i could really do with the bargains esp NOW...or say LAST WEEK:whistling2: these frogs are so precious,its very important i feel that there value is not driven down too far,I don't believe in any kind of exclusivity thang,but some folks might...i say might just value them more if they paid bucks. had this yonks ago with birds,was a very hard lesson learnt...at the expense of some of our beautiful stock,it takes a lot to really piss me off,but hell i threw a few :censor: about that day. Mysties are a case in point in a way, there are so few left in their natural home,each one is priceless in a way,although they are said to be relatively easy to keep,god how i've agonised over them being in the hands of two novice dartsters,reserch or not,i/we so need to do right by them.
i guess as our interest developes,so will with the likes of frogday,the barriers that mean our supply of more unusual darts will expand i hope that the price doesn't deminish too much. In my cosseted little world i would hope that one day funds from the sale of uk darts might be able to help with the funding of habitat preservation,or similar schemes,can't ever see us wondering up to the peruvian gov and saying ere ya go here's 5000 mysties look out for em.
:blush: ruddy heck sorry Matty went off on one,er hijack complete:lol2:
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Grab yourself a sub to the Dendrobatidae Nederlands English language magazine Stu. It's a bit expensive for what it is (£18 for 2 issues a year), but they DO put funds into schemes like reserves. I signed up for 2 years at frog day (Got 2 issues from 2010 there and then, 1 issue from 2011 there and then and will receive the 2nd 2011 issue upon release through the post). It seems to me a good way of bothing getting some nice magazines, and maybe just a little bit of your money will make it to projects to help those frogs in the wild.

As to price, I think it's about finding a balance between over-cheapening them, and ripping people off.

Ade


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> I'd like to know whom has them!!! sndf breed them,buts thats blummin usa.....cobblers eh.
> I got a bit of baggage that concearns price guys,although i could really do with the bargains esp NOW...or say LAST WEEK:whistling2: these frogs are so precious,its very important i feel that there value is not driven down too far,I don't believe in any kind of exclusivity thang,but some folks might...i say might just value them more if they paid bucks. had this yonks ago with birds,was a very hard lesson learnt...at the expense of some of our beautiful stock,it takes a lot to really piss me off,but hell i threw a few :censor: about that day. Mysties are a case in point in a way, there are so few left in their natural home,each one is priceless in a way,although they are said to be relatively easy to keep,god how i've agonised over them being in the hands of two novice dartsters,reserch or not,i/we so need to do right by them.
> i guess as our interest developes,so will with the likes of frogday,the barriers that mean our supply of more unusual darts will expand i hope that the price doesn't deminish too much. In my cosseted little world i would hope that one day funds from the sale of uk darts might be able to help with the funding of habitat preservation,or similar schemes,can't ever see us wondering up to the peruvian gov and saying ere ya go here's 5000 mysties look out for em.
> :blush: ruddy heck sorry Matty went off on one,er hijack complete:lol2:
> Stu


No worries Stu, it makes the thread more interesting. I will have some updated pics tomorrow as I am getting some bits for it tomorrow.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Awesome Matt.

Wish I could help you out with the xaxim bud as I have a bag (about 1 litre), but I am gonna need it myself for that 60x40x40 waiting for me. One thing I will say, you don't need as much as the US ABG mix calls for, I used about 8 litres in about 18 litres of substrate I made up recently, and got an excellent mix. I tend to bulk it out with fine orchid bark, it's cheaper and still works well.

Ade


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Awesome Matt.
> 
> Wish I could help you out with the xaxim bud as I have a bag (about 1 litre), but I am gonna need it myself for that 60x40x40 waiting for me. One thing I will say, you don't need as much as the US ABG mix calls for, I used about 8 litres in about 18 litres of substrate I made up recently, and got an excellent mix. I tend to bulk it out with fine orchid bark, it's cheaper and still works well.
> 
> Ade


No worries, yeah I have already got the orchid bark but want to add the xaxim. I am getting a xaxim panel and I'm going to smash that up. Just want to get it ready now.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> No worries, yeah I have already got the orchid bark but want to add the xaxim. I am getting a xaxim panel and I'm going to smash that up. Just want to get it ready now.


 Matty do you have an electic planer,i have a hunch that might do it,i'll try make time to find out if you can harvest from an old dicksonia trunk,i've been meaning to do this for yonks anyway, it might also work on old T F panel
ha can't wait for the other bits... and pics :2thumb:
we've been playing moss:flrt:,just putting the finishing bits on them last 3 vivs,more auratus lol.
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Matty do you have an electic planer,i have a hunch that might do it,i'll try make time to find out if you can harvest from an old dicksonia trunk,i've been meaning to do this for yonks anyway, it might also work on old T F panel
> ha can't wait for the other bits... and pics :2thumb:
> we've been playing moss:flrt:,just putting the finishing bits on them last 3 vivs,more auratus lol.
> Stu


I don't have a planer, I am going to put it in a pillows and wacky it with a hammer. That should sort it haha.

Stu your tanks are just so amazing, I love seeing pics of them. How many tanks do you have set up now and how many more to go? What auratus are you wanting next?


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## phelsumaman (Aug 14, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> D. aurauts 'black'. Morph 14 on here Dendrobates auratus Morphguide.
> 
> Ade


Thanks for that link - bookmarked : victory:, are there any more morph guides like thus kicking about? I remember seeing one for tincs somewhere a few years ago with distribution maps but can't remember where.

The black ones aren't my thang tbh the green or blue morphs just stand out to me.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

phelsumaman said:


> Thanks for that link - bookmarked : victory:, are there any more morph guides like thus kicking about? I remember seeing one for tincs somewhere a few years ago with distribution maps but can't remember where.
> 
> The black ones aren't my thang tbh the green or blue morphs just stand out to me.


 that'll be on tropical experiance too Ben...also one for pums 
Stu


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> I don't have a planer, I am going to put it in a pillows and wacky it with a hammer. That should sort it haha.
> 
> Stu your tanks are just so amazing, I love seeing pics of them. How many tanks do you have set up now and how many more to go? What auratus are you wanting next?


 ha go for it:bash::bash::bash:
Thanks mate (before i get slapped again our tanks) erm WE have 10 up and sorted 3 occupied, 2 morps in QT,next auratus poss capira...she loves them but honestly mate who knows,always planned on 5 elcope 5highland bronz but,the deeper one goes into this morph thing the more one learns that there is pitiful collection data,and confusion over whether they are actully true morphs,or lines within a morph,ie blue and bronz auratus...el cope,superblue,microspot,panama special,wassmann line,birkanham line,sorry kiddo am off again. I dunno,ha some from my mate in holland would be so cool.
Mat 18 holes in racks to fill,possible 6 rack on the cards of 40 cubes,er rearing,plan is sort big 60cm rack and 10 of other rack maybe tad rearing in other spaces...slow old job mate
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I just found a pic that I thought you folks would like to see, I wont post it as an image though, as I dislike hotlinking (end of the day, it's bandwidth theft), so here is a link to the page it's on: South American Bushmaster(Lachesis muta muta) | WILDTROPIX | ANDRE BAERTSCHI

I know it's a snake, not a frog, but that's taken in a lowland rainforest in Bolivia. I've found similar photographs taken in other parts of south America as well. Leaf litter is pretty common, and in many cases is where dart frogs are actually found in the wild, in amongst the leaf litter.

So leaf litter is most certainly VERY natural (even if the leaves we use aren't. lol) in a dart frog viv. :2thumb: It definitely breaks down VERY quickly (well, oak and magnolia do anyway), however I supsect some of the leaves growing in their wild habitats are much tougher (like banana and coco leaves, which are really thick and hard) and take longer, and also there are a LOT more leaves falling almost continuously, replenishing the litter layer more quickly than the leaves can break down.

What I haven't seen a lot of in those photographs is moss at ground level.  Plenty on branches, but rarely on the ground. One of the reasons I stopped trying to grow moss on the floor of vivs.

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I just found a pic that I thought you folks would like to see, I wont post it as an image though, as I dislike hotlinking (end of the day, it's bandwidth theft), so here is a link to the page it's on: South American Bushmaster(Lachesis muta muta) | WILDTROPIX | ANDRE BAERTSCHI
> 
> I know it's a snake, not a frog, but that's taken in a lowland rainforest in Bolivia. I've found similar photographs taken in other parts of south America as well. Leaf litter is pretty common, and in many cases is where dart frogs are actually found in the wild, in amongst the leaf litter.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying it's 'unnatural'- just very ephemeral- I grew up in Brazil and Sri lanka, amongst other places, and persistant leaflitter was the exception rather than the rule. it looks good, and the frogs like it, so there is no real problem. :2thumb:

You're right about the moss, too, in some of the more persistantly damp areas, moss and lichen grew on treetrunks and branches, rather than the ground.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I just found a pic that I thought you folks would like to see, I wont post it as an image though, as I dislike hotlinking (end of the day, it's bandwidth theft), so here is a link to the page it's on: South American Bushmaster(Lachesis muta muta) | WILDTROPIX | ANDRE BAERTSCHI
> 
> I know it's a snake, not a frog, but that's taken in a lowland rainforest in Bolivia. I've found similar photographs taken in other parts of south America as well. Leaf litter is pretty common, and in many cases is where dart frogs are actually found in the wild, in amongst the leaf litter.
> 
> ...


 ha am already sold on those leaves mate,'ere Ade do you think you could get a couple of those bushmasters for my neighbours garden?:whistling2: cracking pic
Matty pics of den.auratus natural habitat..have a look at www.dendrobates.org-Dendrobates aurautus have manda grab you some tissues too to stop the drooling at the frogs:2thumb: it makes an interesting comparison to tropical experiance morph guide too,
Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Seems we actually agree really then Ron, that leaf litter is at least more natural looking than a moss carpet, and that the frogs like it.  I've not had the luck to be able to visit those rainforests in person, so tend to try to find photographs to go by, and a good many of them have leaf litter in, even ones with flooding in them. lol End of the day though, that's just a photograph of that particular location, and we know that darts are often found in very differing habitats, even habitats in some cases that we consider destroyed. Some of them are right tough little critters to be sure.

Regular visitor of that site Stu (visited the .de version a couple of times to, but that's not as easy to get around. lol), I love to drool over the pics of 'new' thumbnail species discovered on there. :2thumb: Oh and the less well known ameerega. There's one on there, can't remember it's name, but it's orange/red, yellow and blue! Stunning. Found it, _Ameerega macero. Truly a lovely looking frog.

Ade
_


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Seems we actually agree really then Ron, that leaf litter is at least more natural looking than a moss carpet, and that the frogs like it.  I've not had the luck to be able to visit those rainforests in person, so tend to try to find photographs to go by, and a good many of them have leaf litter in, even ones with flooding in them. lol End of the day though, that's just a photograph of that particular location, and we know that darts are often found in very differing habitats, even habitats in some cases that we consider destroyed. Some of them are right tough little critters to be sure.
> 
> Regular visitor of that site Stu (visited the .de version a couple of times to, but that's not as easy to get around. lol), I love to drool over the pics of 'new' thumbnail species discovered on there. :2thumb: Oh and the less well known ameerega. There's one on there, can't remember it's name, but it's orange/red, yellow and blue! Stunning. Found it, _Ameerega macero. Truly a lovely looking frog._
> 
> _Ade_


Ade, 
got me big ol book out,yep its a stunne,ere'ya go macero is derived from the word in the Machiguena (natives of the Rio Manu region) word meaning frog your useless bit of info for Dads day:whistling2: happy dads day mate...:lol2:
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

All finished :2thumb:










And the frogs exploring


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

very cool Matty i could only add maybe a ficus on that backwall,and it seem like that last pic says it all as far as leaves and darts go..."now what 's under 'ere for me to eat" love it guys well sorted,ha and told ya you'ld find some leaves:2thumb:
Stu


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> very cool Matty i could only add maybe a ficus on that backwall,and it seem like that last pic says it all as far as leaves and darts go..."now what 's under 'ere for me to eat" love it guys well sorted,ha and told ya you'ld find some leaves:2thumb:
> Stu


Yeah I have got a ficus but it is a cutting that is currently sitting in water, just waiting for it to root.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> All finished :2thumb:
> 
> image
> 
> ...


Nice! You and Manda must be in competition for 'New Tank of the Month'! :lol2:


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Nice! You and Manda must be in competition for 'New Tank of the Month'! :lol2:


Thanks Ron, they would both win. To be fair, they are both very different tanks. I am really happy with both of them. Not really done a proper tall planted tank and really pleased with how it has come out. All i can think though is how it would look awesome with some peacock tree frogs in though :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Looking good Matt. :2thumbs:

That a single T5 you have on there? If so, you might want to put another on there nearer to the front.

The ficus a normal pumilla, or you using an oakleaf or Columbian? Just asking, as in the smaller tanks like we use for darts the oakleaf or Columbina looks a bit nicer.  What I do with ficus cuttings, I bung em on top of the leaf litter and leave them to it. lol They soon root.

Ade


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Looking good Matt. :2thumbs:
> 
> That a single T5 you have on there? If so, you might want to put another on there nearer to the front.
> 
> ...


It is a single Aracadia T5 yeah. The T5 we have on our Leucs is a lucky reptile one and that has been keeping the plants and moss alive and this ones brighter. Cant really afford to get another controller at the moment:lol2:

The cuttings I have are for a Ficus Saggitata but I think there was some pumila left over from the Cresties viv so I might ask Manda if I can steal that or I could take a cutting from the whites viv.

Im really happy with how it looks though and the darts look AWESOME compared to the brown leaf litter.

I have done the hydroleca in the front and also got a bit of xaxim and bashed that up for the substrate, this was very dusty :lol2:


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> Nice! You and Manda must be in competition for 'New Tank of the Month'! :lol2:


Mine would win :whistling2: I did it all by myself, I'm a big girl now!  Matt did most of the gorilla glue though cos I was useless and kept getting it everywhere, I've still got some on my hands this morning.


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

And Matt yes you can have the bit of ficus! Aren't I generous!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Don't worry Manda. I wear gloves when using Gorilla glue, and I STIL get it all up my arms, often on my clothes..... lol A trick to get it off your skin, get some wet play sand and rub your hands with it, fetches it off a treat without any pain.

Matt, the lighting suggestion was because I see you have some reddish broms in there, towards the front. They wont die, but they will probably go a lot greener without the extra light.  I'm the guy with 2 36 watt plls over a 40x40x60 though.... lol I tend to provide plenty of light, then shade using plants so the frogs are happy.  Oh and yeah, ground xaxim is VERY dusty. lol Every time I use it, well lets say at least it doesn't reach my lungs. lol

Ade


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

manda88 said:


> And Matt yes you can have the bit of ficus! Aren't I generous!


Thank you very. Yes you did do the panting by yourself, lets hope it grows in nicely :2thumb:


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Thank you very. Yes you did do the panting by yourself, lets hope it grows in nicely :2thumb:


You really need to read what you type before you submit it :lol2: 
Might have to try that sand idea, otherwise I'm gonna have no skin left at the rate I'm trying to pick it all off :devil:


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

manda88 said:


> You really need to read what you type before you submit it :lol2:
> Might have to try that sand idea, otherwise I'm gonna have no skin left at the rate I'm trying to pick it all off :devil:


Meh oh well you understand. Where are you going to get playsand from?


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Meh oh well you understand. Where are you going to get playsand from?


If I happen to see any for sale anywhere then I'll buy it, but I won't actively go and search for it cos I'm lazy. And I'll only get it if it's a small packet and it's cheap!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

I should think any sand will work, play sand is just cheap. Asda, Argos and most DIY stores usually stock it. It definitely works, when I did my pumilio viv my hands were disgusting afterwards as I had xaxim dust gorilla glued to them, making them look filthy. The next day I was shutting down our crayfish tank (our fella had sadly died) and discovered how effectively play sand removes it as that's what I had in there as the substrate.  Something like swarfega MIGHT work, or one of those exfoliating scrubs, as they contain grains similar to play sand, they just cost more. 

Oh and I had to restrain myself from making a reply to Matt with his panting thing. lol I figured if I didn't reply he'd notice and edit it before anybody replied. lol Gave me a chuckle. 

Ade


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> I should think any sand will work, play sand is just cheap. Asda, Argos and most DIY stores usually stock it. It definitely works, when I did my pumilio viv my hands were disgusting afterwards as I had xaxim dust gorilla glued to them, making them look filthy. The next day I was shutting down our crayfish tank (our fella had sadly died) and discovered how effectively play sand removes it as that's what I had in there as the substrate.  Something like swarfega MIGHT work, or one of those exfoliating scrubs, as they contain grains similar to play sand, they just cost more.
> 
> *Oh and I had to restrain myself from making a reply to Matt with his panting thing. lol I figured if I didn't reply he'd notice and edit it before anybody replied. lol Gave me a chuckle.*
> 
> Ade


I just thought: I know you two have most of your relationship on here, but *entirely* too much detail...:whistling2:

You can get playsand form Early Learning Centre, too.


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> I just thought: I know you two have most of your relationship on here, but *entirely* too much detail...:whistling2:
> 
> You can get playsand form Early Learning Centre, too.


Hahaha I don't know what to say! I don't even know what he meant to type instead of panting, I would assume planting!


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

I have now put the ficus pumila in the tank. Also have some more leaf litter coming because its not a tgick enough layer for my liking. The auratus seem to be enjoying it though, very active and feeding. One of them like climbing the wood to the top and then chucking itself off Haha. They are awesome.


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Looking good Matt, hope youre coping with the sloping false bottom i forgot this is the first one youve had off me like this, i much prefer them to be honest. And the ficus sagitatta will soon cover this viv as well and you didnt need to buy another one. 

On another note i thought flanman would be on here showing off his new frogs 

Richie


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

richie.b said:


> Looking good Matt, hope youre coping with the sloping false bottom i forgot this is the first one youve had off me like this, i much prefer them to be honest. And the ficus sagitatta will soon cover this viv as well and you didnt need to buy another one.
> 
> On another note i thought flanman would be on here showing off his new frogs
> 
> Richie


Yeah, I had put a substrate stopper of cork in but removed it and filled the gap with hydroleca so its pretty much the same. Except I do prefer them as well I think. I have changed my substrate as well. It has ground xaxim and torn oak leaves. I am really happy with it. Have you seen the tank mabda has planted up in off topic banter with your plants.

Hope you had a good holiday and I will be in touch about a tank off you soon.

Yeah Harvey never comes on anymore. Think they are a bit shy at the moment Dylan though.


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Yeah, I had put a substrate stopper of cork in but removed it and filled the gap with hydroleca so its pretty much the same. Except I do prefer them as well I think. I have changed my substrate as well. It has ground xaxim and torn oak leaves. I am really happy with it. Have you seen the tank mabda has planted up in off topic banter with your plants.
> 
> Hope you had a good holiday and I will be in touch about a tank off you soon.
> 
> Yeah Harvey never comes on anymore. Think they are a bit shy at the moment Dylan though.


Good idea about filling the gulley with leca, i like mine with water in and all draining into one system so much easier
I saw Mandas viv looks very good, that anthurium scandens will be nice when it spreads theyre very unusual. I thought flan was having this viv for his new frogs
Yeah i had a great holiday thanks but it went to quick

Richie


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

richie.b said:


> Good idea about filling the gulley with leca, i like mine with water in and all draining into one system so much easier
> I saw Mandas viv looks very good, that anthurium scandens will be nice when it spreads theyre very unusual. I thought flan was having this viv for his new frogs
> Yeah i had a great holiday thanks but it went to quick
> 
> Richie


He decided it was too heavy for him to have to lug around the train station with him and onto the ferry and what not, so I think he's going to get himself an Exo to put them in instead, either that or I'll tell him we're visiting you soon and he can come along too 
Which one is the anthurium scandens? :blush: Looking forward to buying a load more when we visit!


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

richie.b said:


> Good idea about filling the gulley with leca, i like mine with water in and all draining into one system so much easier
> I saw Mandas viv looks very good, that anthurium scandens will be nice when it spreads theyre very unusual. I thought flan was having this viv for his new frogs
> Yeah i had a great holiday thanks but it went to quick
> 
> Richie


Yeah I would have it with a drain plug but problem is that it sits on a wooden rack and I'm too lazy to drill a hole :lol2:

He was going to but then he realised that he would have trouble carrying it on the train and ferry so he couldn't in the end. Yeah holidays always go really quickly.


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

I did wonder how he got his vivs home, would be a bit heavy for on the train
exos are ok for treefrogs to be honest. But hes more than welcome to come with you

And the a.scandens is the one similar to pothos but a lot nicer and rarer of course :whistling2:

Richie


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Matt, if you use a hole saw putting a hole for the drain into a wooden shelf is a breeze.  I am naff when it comes to all things DIY, but even I manage to make a tidy job of it. :2thumbs: They're cheap to buy as well, got mine in a set from Lidl for something like £6.

You can still fill the gully with leca though, that's what I did on my pumilio viv. As far as I have read, they don't actually need all that water at the front, and by filling it with leca (I actually put enough in to remove the slope of the bottom) and covering with weed fabric it gives you a surprising increase of ground surface. 

I swear by drains where possible now. Makes things a ton easier.

Ade


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