# Breeding Chacoan Waxy Monkey Frogs (Phyllomedusa sauvagii)



## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Hello all,

Hope you've had a good summer, been abit busy so have not been around for awhile. Thought i'd give you an update on my Phyllomedusa's, males were vocalising last night and this is what i found this morning, so fingers crossed. Rain chamber is being 'constructed' as we speak...










Will get back to everyones PM's as soon as poss,
Cheers,
Al


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Hello stranger welcome back :2thumb:, that looks promising Al ill keep my fingers crossed on that one, i could do with a few of them myself, yes thats right ive started my collection again :blush:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

richie.b said:


> Hello stranger welcome back :2thumb:, that looks promising Al ill keep my fingers crossed on that one, i could do with a few of them myself, yes thats right ive started my collection again :blush:


(Knew you wouldn't be able to keep away from them for long . Hope you keeping well me old mucker, you must text me your number again (i'm same number as before), have broken no less than 3 phones this summer and am on my 4th now, Sony Ericsson love me.)

Female Phyllomedusa's are full of spawn, have been very heavily fed following their cooling period so all is in place - hopefully


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Eyup!

How many have you actually got? I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that my two are still in good health. Love 'em.

Good luck!


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

Thats a bit mean photographing them while they are busy!! :whip:


Hehe good luck with breeding them!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> Eyup!
> 
> How many have you actually got? I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that my two are still in good health. Love 'em.
> 
> Good luck!


Good to hear this Harvey, i'm trying to remember when you got these, 4 months ago or so? Do you know what sexes you have yet, they can mature in 6 months after metamorphosing so you should be able to tell now.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

FallenAngel said:


> Thats a bit mean photographing them while they are busy!! :whip:
> 
> 
> Hehe good luck with breeding them!


Thanks FA, perhaps i should call them Tommy and Pamela?, Al


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Thanks FA, perhaps i should call them Tommy and Pamela?, Al


Or Alex and Katie


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> Or Alex and Katie


They're Waxies, not 'Reid' frogs mate...

(Sorry Ron, i'll grab me coat)


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> They're Waxies, not 'Reid' frogs mate...
> 
> (Sorry Ron, i'll grab me coat)


:lol2::lol2::lol2:

:no1::no1::no1:


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Good to hear this Harvey, i'm trying to remember when you got these, 4 months ago or so? Do you know what sexes you have yet, they can mature in 6 months after metamorphosing so you should be able to tell now.


At a guess I'm gonna go for a male and a female. I have one very large and fat lime-green specimen and a smaller, rounder one.
The smaller one was the one who was ill (I'm sure you remember) so I'm not sure if he just hasn't caught up with the larger frog yet.

I could have anything!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> At a guess I'm gonna go for a male and a female. I have one very large and fat lime-green specimen and a smaller, rounder one.
> The smaller one was the one who was ill (I'm sure you remember) so I'm not sure if he just hasn't caught up with the larger frog yet.
> 
> I could have anything!


Sorry Ron, that was a particularly bad effort mate! 

Harvey, that sounds very promising mate, why don't you post some clear close up head shots (needs to be side profile) and we'll see what you have - also take a close look at the picture of my amplexing pair and you'll notice a marked difference in 'nose' shape.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> *Sorry Ron, that was a particularly bad effort mate!*
> 
> Harvey, that sounds very promising mate, why don't you post some clear close up head shots (needs to be side profile) and we'll see what you have - also take a close look at the picture of my amplexing pair and you'll notice a marked difference in 'nose' shape.


Well, it made me laugh.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Sorry Ron, that was a particularly bad effort mate!
> 
> Harvey, that sounds very promising mate, why don't you post some clear close up head shots (needs to be side profile) and we'll see what you have - also take a close look at the picture of my amplexing pair and you'll notice a marked difference in 'nose' shape.


I'll do that tomorrow, Al. I did just have a little look but my 'male' was looking away from me and I don't like to stress him in the slightest!
My 'female' looks male snoutwise. Oh man. I don't know.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> I'll do that tomorrow, Al. I did just have a little look but my 'male' was looking away from me and I don't like to stress him in the slightest!
> My 'female' looks male snoutwise. Oh man. I don't know.


Look forward to the pics Harv's. Rain chamber is nearly finished so will be turned on later, but i'm not expecting egg deposition quickly (if at all), they may remain in amplexus for a couple of weeks before anything happens - We shall see! Al


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Tbh im surprised the superglue you put on them has held out so long!!
OOhhh did i say that out loud, sorry... :lol2:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ben W said:


> Tbh im surprised the superglue you put on them has held out so long!!
> OOhhh did i say that out loud, sorry... :lol2:


Haha! Just charging phone up and then i'll call you back. Rainchamber's on and the males are croaking...


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Latest update - Original pair seperated yesterday due to disturbance whilst i set up the rainchamber, but the good news was calling soon commenced when they were reintroduced in the evening (hence their light colouration)...










And a photo from 10 minutes ago, and an interesting observation (?), the same pair hooked up again overnight, the male choosing (coincidentally?) the same unrelated female over 2 related females. Could be just coincidence though...


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Latest update - Original pair seperated yesterday due to disturbance whilst i set up the rainchamber, but the good news was calling soon commenced when they were reintroduced in the evening (hence their light colouration)...
> 
> image
> 
> ...


I love that first photo of the one on the right, it's face is hilarious! These have really grown on me, they actually have really cute little faces.

Oh and that 'Reid frog' comment made me LOL as well, it was excellent!!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

manda88 said:


> I love that first photo of the one on the right, it's face is hilarious! These have really grown on me, they actually have really cute little faces.
> 
> Oh and that 'Reid frog' comment made me LOL as well, it was excellent!!


Ta Manda, they ARE very 'cute' frogs, people who see them in the flesh say they're a cross between a little Yoda and E.T (that's the normal comments i get). The youngsters are the cutest frogs you're ever likely to see (and that's coming from a bloke), and whilst in their youth they're quite colourful what with the orange colouration between their inner thighs reminiscent of a very chunky more rounded hypochondrialis, or to a lesser extent, tomopterna. I think they're an absolute delight to own, there is something very captivating about them - they certainly have real personality. Acquired most of them as juveniles back in '08 and have never bored of them. Cheers, Al


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Ta Manda, they ARE very 'cute' frogs, people who see them in the flesh say they're a cross between a little Yoda and E.T (that's the normal comments i get). The youngsters are the cutest frogs you're ever likely to see (and that's coming from a bloke), and whilst in their youth they're quite colourful what with the orange colouration between their inner thighs reminiscent of a very chunky more rounded hypochondrialis, or to a lesser extent, tomopterna. I think they're an absolute delight to own, there is something very captivating about them - they certainly have real personality. Acquired most of them as juveniles back in '08 and have never bored of them. Cheers, Al


They remind me more of baby Godzilla's haha, in a nice way of course!! I've not seen baby ones, I look forward to seeing their babies!


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

As Ben would say you need stronger glue, i liked that but i liked the reid one more :no1:


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

Alex M said:


> And a photo from 10 minutes ago, and an interesting observation (?), the same pair hooked up again overnight, the male choosing (coincidentally?) the same unrelated female over 2 related females. Could be just coincidence though...


Is she any larger than the other females? Is he the largest or smallest male?

Good luck with them.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

pollywog said:


> Is she any larger than the other females? Is he the largest or smallest male?
> 
> Good luck with them.


Interestingly Andrew, there is a slightly larger female but all 3 are very plump and in condition - he (the larger of the 2 males) seem's to favour this one for some reason which is, incidentally, unrelated to him (as far is known), but this really could be luck of the draw. Thanks for the good luck, i will obviously need it with this particular species . Al


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

manda88 said:


> They remind me more of baby Godzilla's haha, in a nice way of course!! I've not seen baby ones, I look forward to seeing their babies!


I can see what you're saying Manda, although the Godzuki analogy is a new one to me but is certainly quite fitting. Of course if i'm successful with these i will eventually post pics of the juveniles, but so much (or indeed so little) could happen before this stage. They're a tricky species to breed, or at least this side of the US, so i'm being very precise with every move i make with these, and am hoping for a little luck. Al


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Alex M said:


> I can see what you're saying Manda, although the Godzuki analogy is a new one to me but is certainly quite fitting. Of course if i'm successful with these i will eventually post pics of the juveniles, but so much (or indeed so little) could happen before this stage. They're a tricky species to breed, or at least this side of the US, so i'm being very precise with every move i make with these, and am hoping for a little luck. Al


Well in that case, I wish you the very best of luck with these guys! :2thumb: How come they're so difficult?


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

manda88 said:


> Well in that case, I wish you the very best of luck with these guys! :2thumb: How come they're so difficult?


Cheers! I just wrote a huge reply to your question and just as i was finishing it the laptop crashed - Very frustrating! So, in summery -

Inconsistent breeders (indoors, not so much outdoors where they're bred in places like California and Florida)

Large rainchamber (most successes i've heard of have been in 6/7ft high rainchambers - bit out of the scope of the average herpetoculturist)

Cost of a large breeding group and acclimatation (you can buy CB yongsters here on occasions, however the typically WC adults that are offered for sale are still expensive, rarely include females, and often in such poor condition on importation that unfortunately their bodies central nervous system is already in the process of shutting down, plus there's the usual parasite overloads etc etc - although they can initially appear very healthy) 

I'm going to post this whilst i can!

Cheers
Al


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Also, i hope the above does not put people of getting sauvagii. If obtained in good condition and set up correctly, they're actually extremely easy to keep and very very hardy and unproblematic, remember in the wild these guys experience temperature extremes that range from freezing (at night) to days that get well over 100f - Remarkable i think!. Al


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

They are lovely little things, if I ever bought some I'd have to get someone else to get them breeding for me I think!! Get some more CB ones on the market!

I've just noticed the 'rubber toy frogs' tag at the bottom :lol2: who put that?!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

manda88 said:


> They are lovely little things, if I ever bought some I'd have to get someone else to get them breeding for me I think!! Get some more CB ones on the market!
> 
> I've just noticed the 'rubber toy frogs' tag at the bottom :lol2: who put that?!


I have absolutely no idea who did that, did make me chuckle but not one to point fingers ipreferaflan. And yes, let's hope for more CB Waxies - certainly by the volume of PM's i'm getting it's fair to say there is certainly a demand for them! Al


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Alex M said:


> I have absolutely no idea who did that, did make me chuckle but not one to point fingers ipreferaflan. And yes, let's hope for more CB Waxies - certainly by the volume of PM's i'm getting it's fair to say there is certainly a demand for them! Al


That's good then, just goes to show that they're popular little frogs! It's good to get them out there and known


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Hey! It wasn't me! I'll just upload the pics I took on my _phone_ yesterday (not the best quality pics!).

They are definitely a wonder to keep. My favourite frogs by far.



















and the sexes are?


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> Hey! It wasn't me! I'll just upload the pics I took on my iPhone yesterday (not the best quality pics!).
> 
> They are definitely a wonder to keep. My favourite frogs by far.
> 
> ...


that phone takes better pictures than my camera
the frogs look really healthy flanman, well done and i would say female top pic male bottom but im not up on this species so best wait for Al to have a look, lovely frogs whatever


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Glad to hear they are doing the biz so far, and i can believe the pm bit, and i bet most of them are from lurkers to the thread rather than the contributors on this thread.
Ben


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

richie.b said:


> that phone takes better pictures than my camera
> the frogs look really healthy flanman, well done and i would say female top pic male bottom but im not up on this species so best wait for Al to have a look, lovely frogs whatever


Thanks Richeh. It's only the iPhone camera. Nout special. I'm just a *flan*tastic photographer.



Ben W said:


> Glad to hear they are doing the biz so far, and i can believe the pm bit, and i bet most of them are from lurkers to the thread rather than the contributors on this thread.
> Ben


Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I regularly get PMs about them too! Can't blame anyone though... they're beauties.


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## Dendroman (Nov 28, 2007)

Congrats Al wil be nice to see more CB about btw what is that in the 1st pic at the bottom of the branch.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Dendroman said:


> Congrats Al wil be nice to see more CB about btw what is that in the 1st pic at the bottom of the branch.


Hi Matt, 

It's a Deathshead roach, there are quite a few in there that generally inhabit the bottom and live in the substrate, i feed them on pieces of fruit and dried cat biscuit within the vivaria, and they in turn breed and provide the sauvagii with fresh food. The roaches can only climb so high in the enclosure, and can't reach the highest horizontal canes so the frogs have breathing space during the day and then descend lower to feed at night on those that are suitably sized. Giant mealworms also breed within the substrate, are again well out of the frogs way and also provide further food when the frogs descend lower. Not everyones cup of tea, but no one can say i've not done alright with them so far!

Hope you well
Cheers
Al


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ben W said:


> Glad to hear they are doing the biz so far, and i can believe the pm bit, and i bet most of them are from lurkers to the thread rather than the contributors on this thread.
> Ben


Yep mate, lot's of PM's, it's nice that Harvey and myself are not the only ones with such interest in them. Everyone should have some!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> Hey! It wasn't me! I'll just upload the pics I took on my _phone_ yesterday (not the best quality pics!).
> 
> They are definitely a wonder to keep. My favourite frogs by far.
> 
> ...


Top one is a female, the second picture needs to be a more side on shot for more positive sexing, but would totally agree with Richie, it's looking very male - Can you get another shot mate? Al


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## Dendroman (Nov 28, 2007)

Great idea Al seems to be having +ve results aswell. Whats the lenght of breeding cycle for the roach.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Top one is a female, the second picture needs to be a more side on shot for more positive sexing, but would totally agree with Richie, it's looking very male - Can you get another shot mate? Al


I can but I'll have to try tomorrow now as it's lights out and there's no flash on an iPhone camera 

Thanks though!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Dendroman said:


> Great idea Al seems to be having +ve results aswell. Whats the lenght of breeding cycle for the roach.


Not entirely sure on the length of time it takes for the roaches to turn around Matt, maybe someone else on here could answer, but there's pretty much a self sufficient eco-system going on in there - i do throw in dusted crickets and locusts but not a great deal to be honest. Al


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> I can but I'll have to try tomorrow now as it's lights out and there's no flash on an iPhone camera
> 
> Thanks though!


No problem Harvs, i won't be able to answer tomorrow as i'm off to Dartfrog for a visit and then i've got a gig in the evening (drummer) but have some ready for Sunday!

Just a quick update, 1 pair still in amplexus and another male has literally in the last few minutes started calling - am hoping there'll be two pairs in amplexus by the morning. Al


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks for posting such an informative thread Al,great to see ya back,and a huge amount of luck with em, really interesting stuff and they are beauties...yep the reid comment made us laugh to...Stu


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Thanks for posting such an informative thread Al,great to see ya back,and a huge amount of luck with em, really interesting stuff and they are beauties...yep the reid comment made us laugh to...Stu


Cheers Stu for the kind words, i hope this thread will get all the more interesting for those that are following it - the thing i find exciting is that no one actually knows what's going to happen, one of the things i find exciting about keeping 'phibs (and reptiles for that matter). Cheers mate, Al 

P.s, I've been following your thread and your dart room is looking superb - Phil 'The Power' Taylor to do the grand opening then?


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Alex M said:


> No problem Harvs, i won't be able to answer tomorrow as i'm off to Dartfrog for a visit and then i've got a gig in the evening (drummer) but have some ready for Sunday!
> 
> Just a quick update, 1 pair still in amplexus and another male has literally in the last few minutes started calling - am hoping there'll be two pairs in amplexus by the morning. Al


:gasp: I used to play the drums. More of a guitar man now... Alrighty well enjoy yerself and I'll post pics anyhow.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> :gasp: I used to play the drums. More of a guitar man now... Alrighty well enjoy yerself and I'll post pics anyhow.


(Not going to take this off topic, but other way round for me - got a DW kit and a Ludwig plus various snares... Cymbals - a mix of Zildjian A Customs and K's, but some of it i got free when i did abit of DT'ing for The Cure back in 2005 - Could never give up the drums mate). Al


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Alex M said:


> (Not going to take this off topic, but other way round for me - got a DW kit and a Ludwig plus various snares... Cymbals - a mix of Zildjian A Customs and K's, but some of it i got free when i did abit of DT'ing for The Cure back in 2005 - Could never give up the drums mate). Al


(haha sorry! That sounds freaking awesome. I had to sell my kit when I got all my frogs because I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate the noise and I needed the space! Really, really miss it.)

Back on topic: How many waxies have you got?


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> (haha sorry! That sounds freaking awesome. I had to sell my kit when I got all my frogs because I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate the noise and I needed the space! Really, really miss it.)
> 
> Back on topic: How many waxies have you got?


Only the 5 mate, am toying with the idea of selling one of the adult females and keeping it a 2.2. Al


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Off topic take a look at that DW flanster.....beautifull!!!!!(i will send them words mate am on a rollercoaster not forgotton) Al do you still have those pics on your album?.....ON topic sorry mate .....Al with what you have already said about this species and their ability to withstand temps and the need for space,would a modified greenhouse be a suitable "viv" just thinking?...Actually i better not go there:gasp: darts..darts:bash:,but always curious cheers for the kind words also Al...Stu


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Hello folks, an interesting but unfortunate development so thought i'd bring you up to speed...

I was inspecting the sauvagii this evening when i noticed that something was not right with the pair that were in amplexus. On closer inspection, i noticed that the males (by this stage) well developed nuptial pads had begun to lacerate the female sauvagii's armpits. On noticing this i had no choice but to intervene and manipulate them gently into seperating. I do not know whether this is something that is actually quite the norm with this species in it's native Gran Chaco region (i've never seen it referenced in literature etc), but i was certainly not willing to risk compromising my animals health in order to breed them. A real shame as i felt this particular pair especially were within days of spawning. I have decided to stop the rainchamber, and return them to more 'normal' conditions. This particular female has been seperated, but the wounds are superficial and will heal in no time at all. It's been interesting, and i certainly feel now i've discovered the secret to cycling this fascinating species - same methods will apply when i reattempt breeding them next year. Hope this thread has been of interest.

Cheers
Al


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

gutting mate, but like you say got to think of the frogs health first. That must have been one hell of a horny male, he obviuosly had to hold tight to keep the other males from pinching his female, next time hopefully Al

i see peregrine are listing cb babies


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

richie.b said:


> gutting mate, but like you say got to think of the frogs health first. That must have been one hell of a horny male, he obviuosly had to hold tight to keep the other males from pinching his female, next time hopefully Al
> 
> i see peregrine are listing cb babies


Yeah i noticed they had some mate - i should have another 4 poss 5 juveniles coming tomorrow lunchtime, Al


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Give the male gloves.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

That is such a shame. After all those months of preparation as well!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Also hugely gutted for ya mate.....massively so, i was so looking foward to you taking us through this,massively enlightening,i realise of course you MUST put the little guys first(as of course we all would)....and that way you will get another shot, kiddo more than best of luck next time,if anyone is gonna breed these may it be you...and please tell us about it next time...gutted kiddo...Stu


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Also hugely gutted for ya mate.....massively so, i was so looking foward to you taking us through this,massively enlightening,i realise of course you MUST put the little guys first(as of course we all would)....and that way you will get another shot, kiddo more than best of luck next time,if anyone is gonna breed these may it be you...and please tell us about it next time...gutted kiddo...Stu


Cheers Harvs and Stu for your kind words. I must admit i couldn't see this one coming, a very odd (temporary) ending. I have more sauvagii coming my way over the next 36 hours, and will hopefully reattempt breeding these late next spring. Cheers again, Al


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Cheers Harvs and Stu for your kind words. I must admit i couldn't see this one coming, a very odd (temporary) ending. I have more sauvagii coming my way over the next 36 hours, and will hopefully reattempt breeding these late next spring. Cheers again, Al


I want to see pictures as soon as they arrive please!


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> I want to see pictures as soon as they arrive please!


You will be the first to see them ipreferaquiche, Al


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

I guess the super glue wore off at last, i will let you have the black markers back when i get my super glue back, oh and i forgot to say that you left your pack of extra small condoms in the car the other day when we went to Dartfrog. :gasp::lol2:


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

Alex M said:


> Yeah i noticed they had some mate - i should have another 4 poss 5 juveniles coming tomorrow lunchtime, Al



nice Al did you get me some :whistling2:


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ben W said:


> I guess the super glue wore off at last, i will let you have the black markers back when i get my super glue back, oh and i forgot to say that you left your pack of extra small condoms in the car the other day when we went to Dartfrog. :gasp::lol2:


Ahh bugger, the thing is they're that tiny you don't really notice if they've fallen out of your wallet or not - I mean't to be taking them back to Tesco in Dorchester as they were a size, if not 2 sizes, too big. You need to send me some more English mustard, i've run out, and i've still got another 15 cristatus to paint before the PRAS show, also some ketchup so i can make up some more morenica, ta mate, Al

P.s Richie - I will be collecting the Waxies tomorrow lunchtime, will post pics mate

Ooops misread what you said - Are you interested in getting any?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ben W said:


> I guess the super glue wore off at last, i will let you have the black markers back when i get my super glue back, oh and i forgot to say that you left your pack of extra small condoms in the car the other day when we went to Dartfrog. :gasp::lol2:


 Bloody brilliant Ben:2thumb::lol2:...but in defense of da drummer...don't forget he can do 4 maybe 5 different things at the same time....and for probably 2 or 3 hours.....who needs to be large....quadrat et demonstrandum....proved:gasp:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Al , as a beginner i CANNOT offer advice just thoughts on why the male was so aggressive towards the lass but do ya think that him gripping on so so tight could be because you had to move em?.... or could that be just the way they 'ERM...do it?....We used to breed Ferrets....with out the extereme violence that the fellas shag the gills with, apparantly the lass won't ovulate just some thoughts mate...totally NOT advice....but am seriously intregued on this as with most things to do with animal...did ya have any thoughts on these being kept in a greenhouse?


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

soundstounite said:


> Al , as a beginner i CANNOT offer advice just thoughts on why the male was so aggressive towards the lass but do ya think that him gripping on so so tight could be because you had to move em?.... or could that be just the way they 'ERM...do it?....We used to breed Ferrets....with out the extereme violence that the fellas shag the gills with, apparantly the lass won't ovulate just some thoughts mate...totally NOT advice....but am seriously intregued on this as with most things to do with animal...did ya have any thoughts on these being kept in a greenhouse?


The logical explanation i feel Stu, is that it was caused by the pre nuptial pads, which are quite rough, and he was having to fight off a male constantly night after night to keep his place, and having watched them that is what looked to be the cause - she took quite a battering. Because of where her (healing) abrasions are you can see it was the constant digging in of the PNP's. It's not something i've ever witnessed in anurans before but then most species do not remain in amplexus for the length of time that sauvagii often do, and this pair did not have the natural freedom to get away from the competing males, so it was constant harassment. I will be emailing Philippe de Vosjoli in the US to see if he can shed any light on it given his background with them. I also noticed 2 males were also in amplexus one night but the 'reciever' managed to remove the 'giver' by the next morning. But i already know what i will do differently next time though. As for the greenhouse - a perfectly possible plan but to modify it till it was year round suitable etc would certainly cost some cash, both initially and ongoing, i would feel Stu. Cheers mate, Al


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks mate enlightening stuff...really apprecaite the depth of answer,:notworthy:,i missed the fact that both males were after the same lass she must be particularly attractive...though it seems your cycling to breed was very effective,are you going to split the group up when you next attempt this?...or is the group competion part of the plan?....Talking to [email protected] (poor guy always suffering my Q's and always patient) he told us that he has had better results with the tinctorius morphs when there are two males as they compete for the lass but in this case it seems a bit more passive than with what you have just experianced..fascinating!! Thanks


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