# Male Common/Penicillata (50/50) Marmoset in WA state, seeking a friend with benefits



## RobertStevenson (Sep 2, 2011)

Hi everybody! First post for me, can't believe I haven't come across this forum before. 

Rafiki has been my companion for the last 8 years. He is the best, he goes most places with me and has free reign in the house and yard. Very well-behaved, and social/playful/affectionate once he gets to know ya. He was delivered to me at the age of 8 weeks. He was born in Florida, and for the first 8 weeks he was raised by his birth parents, which means it is likely that he will quickly establish a close relationship with another marmoset(s). I imagine Rafiki is the George Clooney of the marmoset world.

A little about me, I am a 22 year old guy, just finished school at the University of Washington, currently living near Seattle, WA. I am considering taking a roadtrip with the little dude down to Florida so he can see his old friends and maybe meet some new ones. I thought I'd give this a try as well. I know of one lady in Seattle who had a male marmoset but it passed away a couple years ago. Even if you are not interested in breeding but live in the area with a marmoset, Rafiki and I would love to become acquainted and hopefully meet you guys. Its best for marmosets to meet for the first time on neutral ground so that there is no dominance/territorial issues.

If you are interested, or know someone in the area who may be, or if you have any questions at all related to Rafiki and my experiences with him PLEASE drop a line.

Have a great day.

: victory:
Robert


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

RobertStevenson said:


> Hi everybody! First post for me, can't believe I haven't come across this forum before.
> 
> Rafiki has been my companion for the last 8 years. He is the best, he goes most places with me and has free reign in the house and yard. Very well-behaved, and social/playful/affectionate once he gets to know ya. He was delivered to me at the age of 8 weeks. He was born in Florida, and for the first 8 weeks he was raised by his birth parents, which means it is likely that he will quickly establish a close relationship with another marmoset(s). I imagine Rafiki is the George Clooney of the marmoset world.
> 
> ...


Hi Robert, & welcome to the forum!

Its a shame there are such people out there who remove baby monkeys from their families at such a syoung age., & sell them to live alone as a human's companion.

The part of your post I hae highlighted in bold - you couldn't just show your male hybrid marmoset to a female marmoset & get them to breed, like you can (or sometimes not!) with dogs. Marmosets need to bond as a pair, which can take quite a while. They need to spend all their time together, before mating & definately after, as it is the male who does most of the work with the offspring, only passing them to the female for feeding. This would mean either you or the other person would lose their 'pet', as the pair of marms would need to stay together.

Also, as Rafiki is a hybrid marmoset, I would certainly not recommend he is bred from, as in my opinion, hybridisation is not to be encouraged. It dilutes gene pools, & I can see no real reason for it apart from money.

As you live in the US, I would have thought there would be plenty of monkey keepers over there.


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## RobertStevenson (Sep 2, 2011)

Zoo-Man said:


> Hi Robert, & welcome to the forum!
> 
> Its a shame there are such people out there who remove baby monkeys from their families at such a syoung age., & sell them to live alone as a human's companion.
> 
> ...



Zoo-man:

Yes I agree it is not ideal to remove the young from their parents. However, Rafiki was born into an environment in which he interacted and formed close bonds with marmosets and humans, equally. His future prospects were as follows: He could have been sold for research, he could have spent the rest of his life in a cage as a breeder, he could have become some Hollywood prop, he could have been sold to someone unable to care for him properly or without the proper understanding of his needs, or he could have gone to me. I have no doubt that I have given him the most stimulating and happy life out of all of those options. I have no regrets, end of story. 

From age 12 to 14 (2.5 yrs) I spent nearly every moment that I was not in school researching, talking with experts, raising money, and becoming knowledgeable about marmosets. Rafiki has a 5000+ sq. foot house and a two acre property jam packed with ideal trees to climb and forage through. Sure it isn't perfect, but it is pretty darn close. 

I am quite aware that it takes a long time for marmosets to establish bonds with other marmosets, especially if it has been a long time since being with other marmosets. I have all the time in the world, and have not a single shred of doubt that Rafiki can be introduced rather quickly.

As far as your hybridization comment, I respectfully disagree, but would expect nothing else from a zookeeper. Please define "dilutes gene pool" for me? If anything my degree has taught me that variation in gene pool provides greater resilience to the pool as a whole. It is the exact opposite of inbreeding, which obviously decreases variation (and leads to higher rates of genetic mutation/base pair mismatching during fertilization of the egg cell and the rapid mitotic divisions that follow). I have never read Mein Kampf but what you are saying is... well never mind.

Thank you for your input, and now that we are through it I'd like to restate my original request:

If you are interested, or know someone in the area who may be, or if you have any questions at all related to Rafiki and my experiences with him PLEASE drop a line.

Robert


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## andymck69 (Nov 27, 2010)

*marmoset*

if you studied for 2.5years to get the knowledge then you should no they should only be kept in pairs and not singularly.i was given wronge advice by breeders and stupidly didnt research enough about them before hand.but in no time at all i quickly learnt and got a companion,iv changed my ways dramaticly and to be honest this sight has been like a bible to me.i may not post on it but im on it everyday.if your marmosets interests are at heart you should stick to this sight and learn from some of the people on it.im not tryin to start an argument but to be honest your ways are wrong and need to be rectified very quick.


sorry about spelling(never really was my thing)


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## Elina (Jul 22, 2009)

I would advise you join SYBIL'S MESSAGE BOARD - Index page as it is a US based forum so may help you a little more then us over on the other side of the Atlantic can regarding friends for your little guy. 

The most active primate forum I know of in the U.K. is on here: • Index page but I do not have any primates so there may be more. 

Due to the law in Washington I am unsure if once you have left to go visit people in Florida if you will be able to get back into your state with your monkey. . . SYBIL'S MESSAGE BOARD - View topic - Washington . I know you have had him since before the ban but some states are odd with not letting the animals leave/come back in. 

-
Elina


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## 123dragon (Jan 15, 2011)

i also think it is unfair to let him bond with other monkeys and then leave again as to rip apart the bonds he makes on your "road trip"
i would imagine he would get quite upset by bonding with monkeys and then being alone and then having a freind and then being alone. 
why dont you buy a second one yourself so he has a stable bond at home


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

RobertStevenson said:


> Zoo-man:
> 
> Yes I agree it is not ideal to remove the young from their parents. However, Rafiki was born into an environment in which he interacted and formed close bonds with marmosets and humans, equally. His future prospects were as follows: He could have been sold for research, he could have spent the rest of his life in a cage as a breeder, he could have become some Hollywood prop, he could have been sold to someone unable to care for him properly or without the proper understanding of his needs, or he could have gone to me. I have no doubt that I have given him the most stimulating and happy life out of all of those options. I have no regrets, end of story.
> 
> ...


Why could Rafiki not be left with his family? I would have thought the best thing you could have done for him was to get him another marmoset companion as soon as you could after obtaining him. 

Regarding hybridisation, what benefits does unaturally creating hybrid marmosets bring? I can see none. Species should be kept pure. What if there was a natural disaster that wiped out a huge proportion of Geoffroys Marmosets, & it became imperative to collate all captive individuals for breeding purposes. What use would hybrids be? Responsible keepers should not encourage hybridisation. Diluting the gene pools as in the genes of each individual animal are being watered down by creating a hybrid.


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## RobertStevenson (Sep 2, 2011)

Elina said:


> I would advise you join SYBIL'S MESSAGE BOARD - Index page as it is a US based forum so may help you a little more then us over on the other side of the Atlantic can regarding friends for your little guy.
> 
> The most active primate forum I know of in the U.K. is on here: • Index page but I do not have any primates so there may be more.
> 
> ...


Many thanks! i will look there. I dunno how it is in the UK but here they don't track your monkey's location haha. Traveling to Florida and back will be no problem, he has been on many interstate and even international trips (to Canada). 

I have been aware from the start that having two+ marmosets is preferrable, but Rafiki has never been lonely, and has good relationships with other animals in the house as well as 40+ friends of mine that he has become very close to. I'm sorry, but to me love is love is love, no matter who it comes from. 

anymck69: I fully appreciate your experience, however you are making a very generalized claim. Some marmosets react better than others to being separated from other marmies. Some marmosets adapt to human care better than others. Some marmosets are cared for properly and given 100% attention and love from the start, others are not and may sink into depression-like behavior. 

Zoo man: I made my decision 8 years ago, I completely understand and sympathize with your stance. You do work for a zoo, and the standard zoological belief is that anything created by humans is unnatural. Well here in the 21st century in the Pacific Northwest of the US we have begun to remember that humans are exactly as natural as any other creature, be it the earthworm or the bald eagle. We become unnatural when we forget this and greedily disturb the delicate balance within our ecosystems. As far as Rafiki, it is painful to think of his removal from his birth family, but it was simply inevitable, whether or not I became his companion. I'm not going to argue with you about the benefits of having variation in a gene pool, any 21st century college or university professor will tell you the same thing. So basically, though I am permanently leaving this forum for a more local one, I'd appreciate it if you'd stfu and leave this thread alone. 

123dragon: yes i agree, I have taken this into consideration. Deep down in my heart my hope would be to reunite Rafiki with one of his brothers or sisters, work for the place, and then head home with Rafiki and a new friend. Thanks for the input.

Peace out you crazy Europeans .


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

RobertStevenson said:


> Zoo man: I made my decision 8 years ago, I completely understand and sympathize with your stance. You do work for a zoo, and the standard zoological belief is that anything created by humans is unnatural. Well here in the 21st century in the Pacific Northwest of the US we have begun to remember that humans are exactly as natural as any other creature, be it the earthworm or the bald eagle. We become unnatural when we forget this and greedily disturb the delicate balance within our ecosystems. As far as Rafiki, it is painful to think of his removal from his birth family, but it was simply inevitable, whether or not I became his companion. I'm not going to argue with you about the benefits of having variation in a gene pool, any 21st century college or university professor will tell you the same thing. So basically, though I am permanently leaving this forum for a more local one, I'd appreciate it if you'd stfu and leave this thread alone.


Excuse me!!! 

BTW, I do not work for a zoo!

You made your choice 8 years ago! Yes, a choice to subject a baby marmoset to a life of loneliness. No matter how many of your friends play with Rafiki, or how well he gets on with your other pets, nothing can substitute what another marmoset can give him. 

And there is very little about humans that is natural. You only have to look at the state of this planet to see that.

And how is hybridising a marmoset having variation in a gene pool? It does no good to either species & responsible keepers would not encourage the practice.

Sorry, but I will certainly not, as you put it, "shut the f*ck up"!


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## RobertStevenson (Sep 2, 2011)

You make me giggle. Stubborn as a mule you are. I don't know if you speak for the majority over there or what, but anyone wanting to get away from these antique biases is welcome to visit anytime!

A gene pool is the combination of all alleles within a population or species. Last I checked a species is defined as such if the animals within the species are able to successfully reproduce. Common and penicillata marmosets may therefore be considered a single species.

The following is from a report in 2008 from the IUCN:

Alonso et al. (1987) indicated that the Recóncavo da Bahia shows a relatively narrow zone of mixing between Callithrix penicillata and C. jacchus. However, Coimbra-Filho et al. (1991/1992; Coimbra-Filho and Câmara 1996) have shown that this region was originally forested, and argued that the destruction of the natural vegetation over vast areas since the European discovery of Brazil in 1500, along with frequent and repeated introductions, certainly of C. jacchus but probably also of C. penicillata, has resulted in a confused picture of hybrids between these species and between C. penicillata and C. kuhlii (see Coimbra-Filho et al. 1993). They argued that pure C. kuhlii was the original form occurring there. 

If you wanna continue this skirmish about hybrids, take it up with the Brazilian government and ask if they'll allow you to try to stop this "unnatural" mixing that is presently occurring in "natural" habitats in eastern Brazil. I actually have a contact, the US' Brazilian ambassador is my girlfriend's grandfather, I can put you in touch.

Robert


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

RobertStevenson said:


> You make me giggle. Stubborn as a mule you are. I don't know if you speak for the majority over there or what, but anyone wanting to get away from these antique biases is welcome to visit anytime!
> 
> A gene pool is the combination of all alleles within a population or species. Last I checked a species is defined as such if the animals within the species are able to successfully reproduce. Common and penicillata marmosets may therefore be considered a single species.
> 
> ...


So a Lion & a Tiger are the same species??? Or a Canary & a Goldfinch??? 

I didn't mention the hybridisation of different Marmoset species that occurs in the wild, my reference was to captive unnatural hybridisation.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

You say "over there", well, I may live in the UK, but I am a born and bred American and consider Puyallup "home" (oh yes, I'm from right around your way) and even I had a little groan when I read your original post. I don't have all the same beliefs regarding keeping animals as everybody else on here, but providing the basic care for whatever you decide to keep is imperative and one of the very basic needs of a monkey is another monkey.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I too am with Zoo-man on this one here. But let's not forget that Robert Stevenson come from a country where it's considered ok to produce things like ligers, jaguleps and even camas despite the fact that these animals come from _different continents!!!_ 

It seems the american quest for more unusual pets leads them down some very dark roads....dressing monkeys up in little baby-doll clothes, pulling the claws from cats, dying their dogs hair and even tattooing and piercing their "beloved" pets. Their values by and large seem to be very different from our own. Now I apologise if there are any responsible american pet owners reading this, I know you are out there and are to be applauded, but taking such a highly social animal as a marmoset away from any other company _of his own kind_, seems to be unfair in the extreme. No matter what the OP misguidedly believes, him and his extended family of friends simply cannot provide the kind of social comfort that a family of other marmosets would offer the poor little mite. It may be a little late now, but I would have thought giving him to a lovely zoo would have been much kinder than keeping him as a solitary pet.

On the subject that has arisen about the gene-pool and hybridisation......even if these two species of marmoset occurred naturally in the same locale of forest, I very much doubt that they would choose to mate between them. In London zoo, there is an excellent rainforest exhibit with many different species of marmoset and tamarin housed together, and none of them choose to partner up with another away from their own kind, so why should anyone try to force it in a home pet situation? That ridiculous accusation that Col (zoo-man) is applying nazi values to monkey breeding is massively insulting, and at the moment the OP suggested this, he completely discredited anything he has written.

I wonder if the good people at San Diego zoo, or any other fine american institution would recommend breeding hybrids of marmosets? I highly doubt it....but of course, Robert Stevenson is _far_ more informed than any of them and knows exactly what he's doing!:whistling2:


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## RobertStevenson (Sep 2, 2011)

As far as the swearing goes, I typed 4 letters, you typed the rest. 

It's one big gene pool. I see your view and really we both want the same thing. I agree that it is good to preserve "pure" species at distinct time periods, zoological settings provide this function (it is ok if you do not work for a zoo, you are named Zoo-Man). My stance is that the definition of a "pure" species constantly varies. It is fluid. This is true for every species and population and organism and cell and atom and electron etc etc that has ever existed.

If it constantly varies and is never the same, there exists one or more potential states in which all organisms are in perfect balance. We don't necessarily need to consider ourselves separate from the rest of nature to achieve this.

I have done a lot over the years to help put primates, marmosets, and the eastern Amazon region into the public eye. I believe each person I talk to about it is one small step in the right direction that would not have happened had Rafiki gone anywhere else.

I do dream of a time when Rafiki and others have perfect environments AND a true symbiosis with humans. Any day now.

Robert


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

What are your reasons for not actually wanting another marmoset anyway as opposed to travelling to meet others for a short time?


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Hope my spellings ok so as not to get blasted for my ignorance.

I think somebody has been watching Planet of the Apes and is trying to make it reality...

A monkey thats been humanised for 8yrs would not thank you kindly for a 
short period with another...

And theres not a Zoo in the world that would have Hybrid written outside there enclosure.

They have species and not unrecognised cross species for exhibits.(hybrids)

The study in Brazil is true but they are still cross species(hybrid) as they are not recognised.

The only hybrid i know of is a Weills....

Which is a recognised species..

The exhibit at London has mixed species but none that are recognised for cross breading.(geoffs-commons etc)

America is different from here but lets all make sure we keep it that way..

Nappies and removing teeth...

We have dog and cat farms and they even have it for primates...

I have read allot of studdies over the years and have never read any
that says they are naturally living in an air conditioned 5000 sq ft house...

This is all too stupid and would be better ignored all round..

Just couldnt resist about the reintroduction bit...


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## RobertStevenson (Sep 2, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Hope my spellings ok so as not to get blasted for my ignorance.
> 
> I think somebody has been watching Planet of the Apes and is trying to make it reality...
> 
> ...



I have seen every Planet of the Apes movie and remake etc yes but haven't you? Don't the monkeys take over the world in that story? How in any way shape or form is that comparable to what I am saying?

I really don't care what is considered a true species today at this instant, that's all I am saying, because it changes in the blink of an eye.

I have no interest in how many hybrids are in zoos to be honest, that has nothing to do with what I am saying. 

I'm sorry but nappies and removing teeth? Are you out of your mind?

I have never read a study either about my specific situation with Rafiki and my house and yard, but I have read countless studies of abuse and poor habitat and poor mental enrichment, and poor diet, and poor social skills, and depression, etc. Rafiki has not suffered any of these things. As his vet puts it (who has studied marmosets 25+ yrs in captivity) "He's as healthy and happy as can be".


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

RobertStevenson said:


> *"He's as healthy and happy as can be".*


Not strictly true, is it? Because he _*could*_ be happier if he was in lush rainforest, untouched by humans, in a massive fruit tree with a lovely mate and a few cute sprogs running around. 

The bit you missed off the end there is that he's as happy as can be - considering he's kept in a house with only human company, never having known his own kind or natural habitat....never having known the joy of a good bonk and having been paraded around the place like some novelty baby and gawked at, and probably stressed out, by your many friends.:whistling2:


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Healthy and happy as can be in the conditions that you are forcing on him.
Not natural in any way..

Did the apes not get treated un naturally and then revolted and took over the world...

You come across as being pretty darn sure of yourself.

Watch this space:lol2:

What have you done for the rain forrest and primates.?
Can you be more specific.

At 22yrs of age you have done a whole lot....

Back to your vet.
My vet travels all over doing talks on primates etc...

Vets over with you are different as by good judgement vets here dont have as severe issues as in the states..

Anyway i hope you have better luck on the forum that you have found as you will not have any joy here as we all have some ethics...


But i will remember your name and will look forward to watching your tv programmes for all the good you are doing...

But at 48 i may not survive to see it.

Not that i term that as old

But while you were playing games i was gaining experiance with small primates....

Thank god for the UK....


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## krusty064 (Sep 5, 2011)

Im only 25 and hve limited experience in keeping marmosets but also have a degree in Bioanalytical science with a keen interest in the management of species in Captivity. (50+Species of parrots and finchs bred, 3+ Mammal species bred and 2+reptile species kept(newbie for herps but really cant wait to continue with them)) So im not exactly a newcomer to keeping and managing animal populations. Your comments on gene pool are for the most false ones I have ever heard of. A gene pool in discussion is of a species or sub species, not the same for Not hybridisation as you have stated e.g something from your side of the pond the Florida Panther. The sub species was originally kept as a pure strain of sub species but unfortunatly the inbreeding co-efficent was too high and sterilty and birth defects were too high so they decided to include other mountain lions from similar sub species which helped after a single generation to increase fertility and survivabilty in the resulting off spring.
If you look at other marmoset and tamrin breeding programmes such as the lion tamarins you will see that for the black lion tamarin which has a lower captive population initially they are not adding golden lion tamarins as potential mates as it is species hybridisation. Not sub Species.
This is a major flaw in your argument not the standard of habitat which you provide which is pretty impressive and wish I could do the same for any species I could keep so well done their even this is a crtic post


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