# Adder bites



## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

I don't think I've ever posted in this section but after seeing quite a few adders recently I wondered if one were to bite me what would happen? I don't mean as in would I die as as far as I know it's not deadly but I mean would it cause clots or rotting or what? Sorry to seem a muppet!


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

you'll get super powers :2thumb:


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Cool! Does that mean they'll make me a moderator?!


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## KWIBEZEE (Mar 15, 2010)

Observe and conserve - ie look but do not touch, let it be. Remember some people have died through bee stings etc. Each person's immune system is different and though you may have been stung by hornets or jellyfish does not mean that you will survive an adder bite. Okay = the average person would feel extreme pain etc but very much doubt ones arm would turn black, gangrenous and fall off or had to be amputated. 

A boy in Farnworth - Bolton ( its the first town mentioned on the KLF's Grim Up North track btw) was bit by an adder in the grass. Rushed to hospital etc but discharged the next day etc. A dog also bitten in Bolton suffered for a few days before being put down.

Adders are protected in this country and it would be unwise & very selfish and irresponsible if anyone were to even think of taking them out of the wild. Hefty fines and imprisonment also loom for those that take the Law into their own hands.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Oh no, I don't want to take one! I just wondered if it is a clotty type of venom or a dead tissue type! I have no intention of touching one let alone being bitten - just a spot of morbid curiosity as to the mechanism of how the venom works!


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Does anyone know?! It is really bugging me! I really do want to make it clear I have no intension of getting close enough, but going out with a horse and dog etc I spend a lot of time in the countryside! I will happily watch them and would rather see them disappear into a bush than sit there waiting for me to pass! With a general interest in reptiles I would love to know how their venom works, especially as it's the only venomous uk reptile!


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## KWIBEZEE (Mar 15, 2010)

just to up the thread here are a few articles as relating to my above reply:

Bury woman's Adder bite hell

Man ill after being bitten by adder (From The Bolton News)

Snake bite kills dog (From The Bolton News)

Snake bites boy of 11 in Bolton! | Daily Mail Online

*And to cheer everyone UP here is that lovely KLF track - as said what's the first place mentioned - hey? ( Kwibezee Love Factor :Na_Na_Na_Na*

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwtSdJaPCSI*


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

I have already read all of them and it still didn't answer my actual question, I don't care about it killing you, I don't care it makes you feel rubbish I just want to know the actual mechanism of the venom! Does it make you clot, does it make you bleed internally, does it rot your tissue, or does it mess with your brain lol. If nobody knows that is fine but it will bug me until someone knows and tells me lol. Thanks for the links tho


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## KWIBEZEE (Mar 15, 2010)

Also found this - and at the end is the full link - very interesting read:

Snakebites in northern Europe are a rare source of severe medical conditions including systemic effects and compartment syndrome. Nevertheless the Adder, Vipera Berus, is endemious in northern Europe and the only snake, which habits even in the arctic region [1]. It is a relatively small, thickbodied snake typically reaching a length of 65 cm as adults. The venom is produced by modified salivary glands and is injected 2-3 mm subcutanously into the victim. The venom is containing a complex mixture of high molecular weight proteins, mainly proteases, peptid hyaluronidase, and phospholipases whose effects are predominantly cytotoxic and hemorrhagic [1,2]. The cytotoxic component attacks the vascular endothelial linings, typically resulting in early and extensive edema and hypovolemia. Bruising also occurs and is usually most pronounced in the regions of the main lymphatic trunks and regional lymph nodes. Hypotension is the most important sign of systemic envenoming, usually developing within two hours [2,3]. Victims may feel faint, and children in particular may become drowsy or semiconscious. Nausea is usual and vomiting is a common and prominent feature, which may last for several days. Diarrhea may also occur. Other systemic effects include abdominal colic, incontinence, sweating, vasoconstriction, tachycardia, and angio-edema of the face, lips, gums, tongue, throat and epiglottis, urticaria and bronchospasm [2,3]. Systemic hemorrhage and coagulopathy appear to be rare in man, possibly because of the combination of relatively low venom potency and small delivered dose in a victim of relatively large body mass. Although it has not yet been isolated, there is some evidence that a cardiotoxic component is present in the venom causing T wave inversion, myocardial damage, and second degree heart block [4]. Laboratory test results include neutrophil leucocytosis, thrombocytopenia, initial hemoconcentration and later anemia resulting from extravasation into the bitten limb, and rarely hemolysis, elevation of serum creatine phosphokinase, and metabolic acidosis [3]. 
The description of the clinical symptoms can be classified into five envenomation grades, grade 0-4, serving as indicator for the need for antivenom treatment as well as prognostic estimator. The severity of the reaction to snakebites depends on the degree of envenomation. Downey, Omer and Moneim describe a system whereby, grade 0 means there is no envenomation and indicates swelling and erythema around the fang marks of <2.5 cm, grade 1 indicates swelling and erythema of 2.5 to 15 cm but no systemic signs, grade 2 indicates swelling and erythema of 15 to 40 cm with mild systemic signs, grade 3 indicates swelling and erythema of >40 cm with systemic signs, and grade 4 indicates severe systemic signs including coma and shock [5]. 
The incidence of severe adder bites (grade 3-4) in Europe is described with a mean of 0.6/1 million inhabitants per year with a peak in summer month [6]. The main site, where the bite occurred was the hand with 52%, followed by the foot with 38% [2]. Bites on the hand were usually on the thumb or fingers and often resulted from the person picking up a snake, while bites on the foot were most often on the ankle, and were the result of stepping on a snake. Snakebites usually happen accidentally. Men were more likely to be bitten than women or children, and incidents of adder bite have been recorded in people of all ages ranging from 1-78 years [7]. 
Although most adder (V. berus) bites result in trivial symptoms, envenoming can produce both local and systemic effects, which can cause death from 6 to 60 hours after a bite, particularly in children and the elderly [8]. The critical period for a victim is usually the first 12 hours after being bitten but may last for several days. 
Compartment syndrome after an adder bite is extremely rare, but has been reported in the palm and forearm following envenomation [9-11]. Other more common reasons for compartment syndrome of the upper extremity include forearm fractures, ischemic-reperfusion following injury, hemorrhage, vascular puncture, intravenous drug injection, casts, prolonged limb compression, crush injuries and burns. Without prompt surgical treatment, it may lead to nerve damage and muscle death. Edema of the soft tissue within the compartment further raises the intra-compartment pressure, which compromises venous and lymphatic drainage of the injured area. Pressure, if further increased in a reinforcing vicious cycle, can compromise arteriole perfusion, leading to further tissue ischemia [12]. 
The normal mean interstitial tissue pressure is near zero mm Hg in non-contracting muscle. If this pressure becomes elevated to 30 mm Hg or more, small vessels in the tissue become compressed, which leads to reduced nutrient blood flow i.e., ischemia and pain. Of particular importance is the difference between compartment pressure and diastolic blood pressure; where diastolic blood pressure exceeds compartment pressure by less than 30 mm Hg it is considered an emergency [13]. The compartment pressure measurement can be helpful in the assessment of the patient. 
Untreated compartment syndrome mediated ischemia of the muscles and nerves lead to eventual irreversible damage and death of the tissues within the compartment and as a long term result Volkmann's contracture.

Clicky the blue below for the full article :
SJTREM | Full text | Adder bite: an uncommon cause of compartment syndrome in northern hemisphere


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## KWIBEZEE (Mar 15, 2010)

AN ADDER - OPPS i DOUBLE POSTED SO TRIED TO TIDY THE MESS UP WITH A PICI


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

That's brilliant thanks! So generally does that mean it causes blood clots and damages the arteries, veins and capillaries?


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

You will be screaming around like a girl and then the sweats will kick in then all ur herp mates will laugh at u while there sat there calling and ambulance after telling u repeated times not to poke a stick at it to get it to pose for ur camera........ chances are if they aint hit a vein first off ul feel the intial mechanical wound id imagine its not so dis similar to a glancing blow off a carpet python there teeth are about as long as the adders fangs. 
Then the feeling that apparently burns more than dipping ur nads in chip fat. You will get localised swelling its possible u will feel like u have a hard lump initially where u got tagged. It wont be long before it hits ur lymphnodes in ur armpit then the next min it will be like the vtec just kicked in. You will then get a proper sweat on pain will become more intense swelling will get worse. heart rate will bounce all over the shop and ul then get carted off by the paramedics u may go into shock and lose conciousness (probably not a bad thing with the pain). At the hospital ul have every doctor and nurse poking there head in because of the rareity of snake bites in the uk. (this is just one individual not everyone reacts the same he had no dizzyness) 
From here i got booted out so not sure exactly what happens then and what the docs do. But u will be expected to post pics on here its the LAW and expect to get riduculed by ur peers on here....... chances to get bitten slim ud have to really annoy it or stand on or near it (with riding boots on theres no way they would bite through that leather). 
If u hadnt guessed a mate of mine who's a really good photographer decided to move one with a stick shorter than a pencil and he got 1 fang just behind the nail bed the other hit nail and didnt go through after being told about 10 times dont touch them. It's a bad idea to get bitten by berus ive been lucky in the fact ive grown up with them since i was 16 and used to just tail them off the roads as u see alot of flat ones. I didnt realise how bad a bite can be from them till coming on here so just look and observe.... they will ride a hook but unless ur moving one u should have no need to touch it and unless ur getting well within firing range they aint gonna puff up and charge u like a cobra they will just sit there.
If anything u make too much noise they will bolt or go silent and ul be sat there in silence for ages until they move....
permanent damage depends on where u get bitten and how much venom and ur bodys reaction. This can vary from death----------- to feeling like :censor: for a week and then a small scar. There is no pidgeon hole for different snake bites all u can do is not play with it and stay at a distance and u wont get bit ... i think thats pretty much standard with all snakes although id wanna be alot further away from a mamba than and adder lol


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## Tommy Coopers Ghost (Sep 14, 2014)

Here you go... the NHS gets about 100 adder bites a year... generally keep you in for observation then Kick you out next day...

Snake bites - NHS Choices


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Thanks you 2, not really the answers I was looking for but thanks for your time  

I am more interested in the mechanism of the venom than the "it makes you feel rubbish and after a few days you might be fine or you might be dead" 

I'm pretty sure I wont get bitten, the dog might, but he's thick and would probably try and eat the snake until it bites him... 

I find venom pretty fascinating, I can't remember what or where it was or anything but when I was a kid I remember seeing something that said the venom from some snake initially causes clotting, but if that doesn't work the blood then thins and internal bleeding starts, so for small prey animals they will die from a clot and for large prey animals they will die from bleeding out/internal bleeding. I just never really thought about it since, although I did retain that


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## Tommy Coopers Ghost (Sep 14, 2014)

Viperine Venom is: haemotoxic (blood toxins), necrotising (death of tissue), and anticoagulant (preventing the blood from clotting)

full scholarly article yer 

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2003/stoneley/types.htm


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## Owzy (Jan 19, 2009)

mikeyb said:


> You will be screaming around like a girl and then the sweats will kick in then all ur herp mates will laugh at u while there sat there calling and ambulance after telling u repeated times not to poke a stick at it to get it to pose for ur camera........ chances are if they aint hit a vein first off ul feel the intial mechanical wound id imagine its not so dis similar to a glancing blow off a carpet python there teeth are about as long as the adders fangs.
> Then the feeling that apparently burns more than dipping ur nads in chip fat. You will get localised swelling its possible u will feel like u have a hard lump initially where u got tagged. It wont be long before it hits ur lymphnodes in ur armpit then the next min it will be like the vtec just kicked in. You will then get a proper sweat on pain will become more intense swelling will get worse. heart rate will bounce all over the shop and ul then get carted off by the paramedics u may go into shock and lose conciousness (probably not a bad thing with the pain). At the hospital ul have every doctor and nurse poking there head in because of the rareity of snake bites in the uk. (this is just one individual not everyone reacts the same he had no dizzyness)
> From here i got booted out so not sure exactly what happens then and what the docs do. But u will be expected to post pics on here its the LAW and expect to get riduculed by ur peers on here....... chances to get bitten slim ud have to really annoy it or stand on or near it (with riding boots on theres no way they would bite through that leather).
> If u hadnt guessed a mate of mine who's a really good photographer decided to move one with a stick shorter than a pencil and he got 1 fang just behind the nail bed the other hit nail and didnt go through after being told about 10 times dont touch them. It's a bad idea to get bitten by berus ive been lucky in the fact ive grown up with them since i was 16 and used to just tail them off the roads as u see alot of flat ones. I didnt realise how bad a bite can be from them till coming on here so just look and observe.... they will ride a hook but unless ur moving one u should have no need to touch it and unless ur getting well within firing range they aint gonna puff up and charge u like a cobra they will just sit there.
> ...


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Tommy Coopers Ghost said:


> Viperine Venom is: haemotoxic (blood toxins), necrotising (death of tissue), and anticoagulant (preventing the blood from clotting)
> 
> full scholarly article yer
> 
> http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2003/stoneley/types.htm


Fantastic, this was exactly what I was looking for, its even written in normal English and easy to read!!! Thank you :2thumb:


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

Owzy said:


> [URL="http://i322.photobucket.com/albums/nn428/owzy46/MoodleBulkUserXLSGibberish_zps389c6642.jpg"]image[/URL]


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

seriously there is some rubbish written on here


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

KWIBEZEE said:


> Adders are protected in this country and it would be unwise & very selfish and irresponsible if anyone were to even think of taking them out of the wild. Hefty fines and imprisonment also loom for those that take the Law into their own hands.



As a bit of a pedant, I feel the need to correct this.

Firstly, I completely and utterly agree that we shouldn't encourage hobbyists to collect wild adder. (I was going to say nobody should, but I believe that there are circumstances when some people could - but they are very specific and under very specific conditions).

However - it is absolutely not illegal to remove adder from the wild. It is perfectly legal to pick up an adder, stick it in a rub, take it home and keep it, provided you have a DWA licence to cover the fact you own a viper. It is also perfectly legal for you to collect grass snakes, slow worm, common frogs and common toads, palmate and smooth newts and common lizard. What you CAN'T do is sell them.

Basically, the Wildlife and Countryside Act (1981) provides the following protection to British Wildlife (excluding birds which have a whole separate section and much greater protection) in Section 9:











As you can see, this pretty much covers any animal listed in Schedule 5 as completely untouchable!

However, when you check out Schedule 5 you see the following:











As you can see, the adder is present, but is only covered by part 5 of section 9 (prohibited to sell etc) so is not covered from disturbance etc as outlined in part 4.

Whereas those animals with 'higher' protection are also covered from disturbance such as the sand lizard and great crested newt as you can see if you scroll down Schedule 5:











Note that the sand lizard and great crested newt (and the smooth snake) are covered by section 5 but also with respect to section 4 b and c.





Unless the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 has been superseded by further protection which I'm not aware of (and this is perfectly possible, so please let me know if this is the case!) then this is the law as it stands.

I do not think people should, but the law does not say they can not take adders from the wild.


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## Iulia (Mar 2, 2011)

sorry I missed this thread - interesting - I survey the local adders here

unlikely as said either you or dogs will get bitten - here hundreds of dogs are walked within feet of the adders every week no issues.

don't know the mechanism - will have a read looks interesting.

I had a partially envenomated bite a few years ago stepping on an injured adder in the dark !!!

:lol2::lol2:

but I still love snakes


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