# Pit Bulls



## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Being the owner of an exempted dog, I often find myself in slightly heated debates with people (on here and elsewhere) about Pit Bulls and 'pit bull crosses'. 

Firstly, in the UK, there is no such thing as a 'pit bull cross'. A Pit Bull is not a recognised breed in it's own right in this country, rather there are dogs who fall into the category of 'Pit Bull Type'. A dog either does, or does not, fall into this category. 

Under The Dangerous Dogs Act, police use a standard for the Pit Bull Type set out in the American Dog Breeders Association; this decides whether a dog is or is not 'type'. This criteria is as follows;

"Identifying Pit Bull Terrier (PBT) types
The following information is aimed to provide a starting point for identifying Pit Bull Terrier (PBT) types. 
There are no photographs provided to assist with this as these animals can look very different yet have a substantial number of characteristics present and be considered a PBT.
The standard used to identify a PBT is set out in the American Dog Breeders Association standard of conformation as published in the Pit Bull Gazette, vol 1, issue 3 1977 – please refer to this for the full description and also relevant cases20 as this is only a brief overview. Although the law does not require a suspected PBT to fit the description perfectly, it does require there to be a substantial number of characteristics present so that it can be considered ‘more’ PBT than any other type of dog.

• When first viewing the dog it should appear square from the side, and its height to the top of its shoulders should be the same distance as from the front of its shoulder to the rear point of its hip.
• Its height to weight ratio should be in proportion.
• Its coat should be short and bristled, (single coated).
• Its head should appear to be wedge shaped when viewed from the side and top but rounded when viewed from the front. The head should be around 2/3 width of shoulders and 25 per cent wider at cheeks than at the base of the skull (this is due to the cheek muscles).
• The distance from the back of the head to between the eyes should be about equal to the distance from between the eyes to the tip of its nose.
• The dog should have a good depth from the top of head to bottom of jaw and a straight box-like muzzle.
• Its eyes should be small and deep-set, triangular when viewed from the side and elliptical from front.
• Its shoulders should be wider than the rib cage at the eighth rib.
• Its elbows should be flat with its front legs running parallel to the spine.
• Its forelegs should be heavy and solid and nearly twice the thickness of the hind legs just below the hock.
• The rib cage should be deep and spring straight out from the spine, it should be elliptical in cross section tapering at the bottom and not ‘barrel’ chested.
• It should have a tail that hangs down like an old fashioned ‘pump handle’ to around the hock. 
• It should have a broad hip that allows good attachment of muscles in the hindquarters and
hind legs.
• Its knee joint should be in the upper third of the dog’s rear leg, and the bones below that should appear light, fine and springy.
• Overall the dog should have an athletic appearance, the standard makes no mention of ears, colour, height, or weight."

Source: DEFRA

My dog came from a dogs home, and was sold to me as a _'Staff X, possibly crossed with Portuguese Pointer'. _Whether she is or isn't that is irrelevant, the police dog handler described her as the best example of an American Pit Bull he had ever seen. What they decide generally goes. 

My dog was exempted, luckily, as she spent 7 months in the police kennels waiting for a court date and shown no sign of aggression towards humans or dogs. The dog handler told me she was actually one of his favourites, he used to walk her when he could and play catch with her, and e-mail me photos. 

The point of this thread, I guess, is to clarify what a Pit Bull is and isn't in this country. There certainly are no 'crosses'. An offspring from a Pit Bull either will or won't fit the above criteria, in which case it will or won't be a Pit Bull. A dog can be a cross of two recognised breeds, but not simply a Pit Bull cross. 

The Dogs Trust explain a bit here: Dogs Trust - Problems of identification

There are some 'examples' of type dogs here: 
American Dog Breeders Association

Also for anyone who may have a 'type' dog, Deed Not Breed & The Bull Breed Association (UK based) are very helpful, and totally free, wish I knew of them in 2008 when I was going through this! 

Trying to find some pictures of my girl, will post them when I locate them.

Edit: Found them. She fitted the criteria so closely I had no option to appeal against her being type, only for exemption. Luckily the police dog handler supported my application.





































These are the police photos used in court.


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## Kev.K (Jan 3, 2010)

I read your comments on the other thread, and I don't agree with all of them. 

The pitbull criteria in this country is a joke. It is very vague and could condemn anything from a lab staff cross to an American bulldog as a pitbull. 

If you check the American standard for a pitbull it is very clear and defined. I would also argue that there are no vets or RSPCA inspectors in this country with enough pitbull experience, to judge what is and isn't a pitbull. Unless they are from countries where the true breed is legal. 

Your dog is gorgeous, but would not fit the American standards for being a pitbull. 

Unfortunatley your dog does fall into the vague description of what a pitbull type is. That's why I think our system is a pile of s**t. It's unfair that she was in police kennels for 7 months. 

Another point I would make. Is that the look of a dog doesn't make it a pitbull. It's the fighting bloodlines of true pitbulls that makes them what they are. Not the way they look. 

Pitbull crosses are available in this country as are pure bred pitbulls.


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## kitkat2 (Jul 18, 2012)

See I know it is just a type rather than a breed, I would say something that is very close to looking like an APBT is a "pitbull" cross but also any puppies from the I would describe as a "pitbull" cross, because if one parent was of pitbull type then the puppy still will get half of the "pitbull" genetics, although it all still falls down to weather the puppy is type or not, half could be typed and half could get away with it but if the police know that a parent of the puppies is type the will all be PTS regardless of if they are type or not as they are "pitbull crosses"

This is a case from DDA watch's Facebook page, although both parents were of "pitbull type" same would stand if it was only one parent












DDA watch said:


> These puppies were just 5 weeks old when seized, too young to be properly breed indentified. Their parents had both been deemed pit bull type and also seized.
> 
> The authorities gave them an ultimatum. Either they signed all the puppies over to be killed and the authorities would proceed with a 4b application for the adults and agree to have them registered and allowed home, or if the owners refused to sign the pups over, the authorities would proceed to court under section 1. This would mean both all of the dogs spent months or years in secret kennels. The pups would miss out on socialisation and their temperaments may be changed forever.
> 
> The pups owners felt they had little choice...either way they were likely to die. They signed the pups over and saved the parents.









Kev.K said:


> Your dog is gorgeous, but would not fit the American standards for being a pitbull.


Her dog is actually a very good example of the APBT


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## elmthesofties (Aug 24, 2012)

That's very interesting that the dog in the OP was considered the "best example of an American Pit Bull" that the handler had seen, but I always associate an APBT type dog to be more 'compact'. She's got beautiful long legs and a long, slender body. (in my opinion) I'm not really an expert, and maybe someone who knows more about dogs will disagree with me, but she really doesn't strike me as a stereotypical pit bull type dog. I guess it just shows the affect the media has on people.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

so pit bulls don't exist?

kinda like unicorns?... like horses are unicorn-type critters?

pit bull types and unicorn types...

got it... 

although more people are attacked by mythical pit bulls than mythical unicorns...


65 dogs removed from suspected dog fighting operation - WAFF-TV: News, Weather and Sports for Huntsville, AL

what kind of dogs were these?

:lol2::lol2:

just messing with you guys...:lol2:


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## Dz75 (Aug 22, 2011)

Many people think that american pit bulls are short/squat animals, but they aren't, they do have quite long legs..

Like people have said, the media has done much to spread lies and missinformation about many breeds of dogs.. 

And as others have stated APBs are actually very loyal adn loving dogs, but they are also quite intelligent and will challenge their owner (for pecking order) if they percive him to be weaker..


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## kingkelly (May 14, 2012)

I have to say I like Pit Bulls the true type I however don't like staffs, American Bulldogs or any of the barstardised crosses. I don't think you can define many breeds as really truely dangerous, more like dangerous owners.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

elmthesofties said:


> That's very interesting that the dog in the OP was considered the "best example of an American Pit Bull" that the handler had seen, but I always associate an APBT type dog to be more 'compact'. She's got beautiful long legs and a long, slender body. (in my opinion) I'm not really an expert, and maybe someone who knows more about dogs will disagree with me, but she really doesn't strike me as a stereotypical pit bull type dog. I guess it just shows the affect the media has on people.


That's kind of what annoys me, I had a disagreement with a guy on here a few days ago who 'blamed' my dog for bringing his beloved staffies into direpute - when actually, staffs are nothing like pit bulls going from the ADBA standards set out above. The 'stereotypical' pit bull often in the press is usually a staff or staff cross, but as you can see no-one is going to confuse my dog with a staffy!

She's actually very pretty, the police photos are very unflattering;










And she's daft










But she's also very soft;


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

kitkat2 said:


> See I know it is just a type rather than a breed, I would say something that is very close to looking like an APBT is a "pitbull" cross but also any puppies from the I would describe as a "pitbull" cross, because if one parent was of pitbull type then the puppy still will get half of the "pitbull" genetics, although it all still falls down to weather the puppy is type or not, half could be typed and half could get away with it but if the police know that a parent of the puppies is type the will all be PTS regardless of if they are type or not as they are "pitbull crosses"
> 
> This is a case from DDA watch's Facebook page, although both parents were of "pitbull type" same would stand if it was only one parent


This isn't entirely factual. I was recently asked if I would be interested in homing a pup, the mother had been found to be type after already having the puppies, and she wasn't to returned to the owner for one reason or another. The pups had to either be signed over to a charity for rehoming, or he could choose to leave them in police kennels, until they were 10 months old. At 10 months they are developed enough to be assessed. If they are found to be type, and they were in kennels with no owner, they would be PTS. If they had been homed (such as with me) the owner could apply for exemption. If they weren't found to be type, then they were free. 

Still, no such thing as a pit bull cross in the eyes of the law.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's the little ones that you have to look out for!:lol2::lol2:


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## Kev.K (Jan 3, 2010)

Her dog is beautiful, but it is not a very good example of a pitbull. It's too big. 

The op says it has pointer in it, I would agree. It's definitely got American bull dog in it too, but no pitbull. 

Pitbull isn't a type at all. That's what our legislation says. 
Real pitbulls come from game/fighting bloodlines and are a breed. In other countries they have shows. 

American staffies and pitbulls are similar but separate. Like presa canarios and dogo canarios. One is for show the other for working. 

If someone crosses a staffie with a American bulldog. The pups might look like pitbulls but they're not. 






kitkat2 said:


> See I know it is just a type rather than a breed, I would say something that is very close to looking like an APBT is a "pitbull" cross but also any puppies from the I would describe as a "pitbull" cross, because if one parent was of pitbull type then the puppy still will get half of the "pitbull" genetics, although it all still falls down to weather the puppy is type or not, half could be typed and half could get away with it but if the police know that a parent of the puppies is type the will all be PTS regardless of if they are type or not as they are "pitbull crosses"
> 
> This is a case from DDA watch's Facebook page, although both parents were of "pitbull type" same would stand if it was only one parent
> 
> ...


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## Kev.K (Jan 3, 2010)

elmthesofties said:


> That's very interesting that the dog in the OP was considered the "best example of an American Pit Bull" that the handler had seen, but I always associate an APBT type dog to be more 'compact'. She's got beautiful long legs and a long, slender body. (in my opinion) I'm not really an expert, and maybe someone who knows more about dogs will disagree with me, but she really doesn't strike me as a stereotypical pit bull type dog. I guess it just shows the affect the media has on people.


Shows that the police handlers know :censor:
all. Pitbulls imports have been banned for 20 years. So unless that handler has worked with "real pitbulls", he knows :censor: all about them. 

If the ops dog was entered into an American pitbull show in USA. It would be disqualified on the basis of size, it's too big. 

If you google it, the breed standards are defined and strict. 

Email that pic to an top American breeder, and see what they say.

Many innocent dogs are destroyed in this country for being "pitbull types". The criteria is so vague it's pathetic.

Many pedigree mastif breeds would fit the criteria, aswell as a large staffie.


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## Sammyb (Jan 30, 2012)

i would have to agree with alot of the comments already. i worked for a very well known national rescue centre and being close to london we were visited by the police for checks and although they never took any dogs from us they did raise some questions with a few for bing "PB Types" which to people who have worked with PB's would laugh at. we would also get MANY phone calls from people wanting to rehome their PB or PB cross for it to turn up and it be a staffy?? Not many people know what a proper APB looks like. The "pit bull type" is a blanket statement used to judge a dog on its looks/size. Even if its a large staffy/ staffy cross that is soft as mud that to most people looks like a nice friendly dog you only have to have some one come along and make a statment that its is a PBT and it will be ivestigated.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Kev.K said:


> Shows that the police handlers know :censor:
> all. Pitbulls imports have been banned for 20 years. So unless that handler has worked with "real pitbulls", he knows :censor: all about them.
> 
> If the ops dog was entered into an American pitbull show in USA. It would be disqualified on the basis of size, it's too big.
> ...


Whilst I agree with some of your points, (including your inbox, i'll reply in a minute), I have actually spoken to an American breeder about my dog in 2009. Whilst they'd prefer her to have docked ears/tail (for fighting advantage) she is a good example of a pit bull in his eyes. She's getting on a bit now, and is overweight, but she is a pit bull in the eyes of one old American breeder, and of all the authorities in this country. 

Here's my insurance renewal for this year. 4 days before Christmas as usual :devil:


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## Kev.K (Jan 3, 2010)

mstypical said:


> Whilst I agree with some of your points, (including your inbox, i'll reply in a minute), I have actually spoken to an American breeder about my dog in 2009. Whilst they'd prefer her to have docked ears/tail (for fighting advantage) she is a good example of a pit bull in his eyes. She's getting on a bit now, and is overweight, but she is a pit bull in the eyes of one old American breeder, and of all the authorities in this country.
> 
> Here's my insurance renewal for this year. 4 days before Christmas as usual :devil:
> 
> image




That doesn't really mean anything other than she is classed as a "pitbull type" in this country.

I wouldn't imagine Allianz insurance know much about them either.

My whole point is the "authorities" in this country haven't got a clue. A boxer would fit the criteria they use that you posted.

Also no top American breeders dock tails or fight their dogs. Many are against ear cropping too. 

Pitbulls are bred to be good family pets. I don't watch that Caesar bloke, but I thought his dogs would have proven that pits are not bad.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Kev.K said:


> That doesn't really mean anything other than she is classed as a "pitbull type" in this country.
> 
> I wouldn't imagine Allianz insurance know much about them either.
> 
> My whole point is the "authorities" in this country haven't got a clue. A boxer would fit the criteria they use that you posted.


Allianz just go off what information the Index passed them after we went to court. And it doesn't say anything about type, it says American Pit Bull Terrier. A boxer isn't usually square when viewed side on, has a far too overshot bottom jaw, too much loose skin, and generally does not fit into those criteria.


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## Kev.K (Jan 3, 2010)

mstypical said:


> Allianz just go off what information the Index passed them after we went to court. And it doesn't say anything about type, it says American Pit Bull Terrier. A boxer isn't usually square when viewed side on, has a far too overshot bottom jaw, too much loose skin, and generally does not fit into those criteria.


I've sent u a pm  

I know what a boxer looks like, and like you said. A dog doesn't have to match all the criteria. 

American bulldogs and boxer crosses are affected bt this bull:censor: legislation all the time. 

If you compare the "criteria" you posted, to the american standard for a pitbull. They are miles apart.

If u want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to via pm. 

I mean that in a nice way, not an arsey one like I want a argument or anything.


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## mstypical (Feb 16, 2011)

Kev.K said:


> I've sent u a pm
> 
> I know what a boxer looks like, and like you said. A dog doesn't have to match all the criteria.
> 
> ...


I've replied 

I don't want this to be about my dog in particular, rather to show that pits aren't staffs lol, and the discrepancies that occur when you start banning some animals and not others!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

All American pit bull terriers are "Pit bulls",
But not all "Pit bulls are American pit bull terriers.

American pit bull terriers are a Breed, But the term "Pit bull" is a generic term of a type of class of dog, And covers a fair amount of breeds, American pit bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, Eniglish bull terrier, Amstaff's'etc'etc, Even long legged bull dog breed such as American bulldog, Boxers'etc, And mastiff breed fall under the term "Pit bull" and ofcourse cross's of them. Dogs that are of a build and ability for pit fighting by definition are "Pit bulls".


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## Broxi_jim (Jul 19, 2010)

Had a few runs in with the police up here regarding a few dogs..
They seem to think that every bull terrier TYPE dog is a ''PIT-BULL TERRIER'' :censor::censor::censor:
He asked what my dog was, I told him an american bulldog x Bullmastiff..he then said..so its and american ''PIT'' Bulldog terrier.. Ireplied no..her mother was an american bull dog..he said..yes all american bull dogs are pit bulls !!! So is the staffordshire pitbull terrier..:crazy::crazy:

So after having an arguement about dogs for a 15-20mins..he went on his way...I pity anyone with a dog thats deemed as type and has this idiot to some and verify what type of dog it is !!


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Police are idiots when it comes to dogs, especially when it comes to dogs in the hands of people they think maybe suspect. In their defence however I think they have to deal with a number of idiots and have simply joined they rather than beating them (not literally beating them, though they do that too no doubt)

My Brother in law (guy in his 50's) has a staffy and his son, my nephew, was taking it for a walk after he finished work, unfortunately because he is a fridge fitter, so works in supermarkets normally during the quieter hours, this occurred at about 3am. My nephew has never been a seconds trouble to anyone, in fact he did a course in uniformed services or something like that and is the main caretaker for my 80 year old father, not that my Dad is needing care, just you know help with dealing with official things and electronics etc. Nothing about his appearance that people may class as indicating trouble, no shaved head, trousers in the designed area rather than under his ass etc etc.

Yet a cop was just about ready to seize the dog and pretty much arrest him for something just because he was a young guy walking a status dog at 3am.


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## CorntasticBully (Jan 21, 2012)

Even here in the US innocent dogs get called Pit Bulls. They are banned in some places here, if it looks like a Pit (or even if it doesn't but the ACO thinks it does) the dog can be taken and PTS in some areas. 

I'm sure it is really bad in the under the DDA because Staffs are so popular and their crossed probably common that many are mislabeled as Pits.



Kev.K said:


> Shows that the police handlers know :censor:
> all. Pitbulls imports have been banned for 20 years. So unless that handler has worked with "real pitbulls", he knows :censor: all about them.
> 
> If the ops dog was entered into an American pitbull show in USA. It would be disqualified on the basis of size, it's too big.
> ...


I would have to agree with most of this. Here where Pits ate common AC still can't figure out what is or isn't a Pit. In a country where they have been banned and are probably very uncommon I can imagine they can't tell a Pit at all. No visual or hands on experience.

How big is she? I didn't see it in this thread so maybe it was stated in another. No matter what her size she wouldn't be disqualified. There isn't an exact size standard/DQ for specific size in APBT like their is in some breeds. So no she wouldn't be DQ'd. I was once at a show where Chevy Red Dog was entered in conformation. 
The only DQ is having an altered dog, retained testicle(s), and of course a man aggressive dog. 
The OPs dog has faults for sure. If I saw the dog I might believe she is a Pit mix but while she has some Pit type features she isn't the best rep and mixes of bully breeds with no Pit in them can look like Pit mixes. I certainly wouldn't take a dog wardens opinion seriously.



mstypical said:


> Whilst I agree with some of your points, (including your inbox, i'll reply in a minute), I have actually spoken to an American breeder about my dog in 2009. Whilst they'd prefer her to have docked ears/tail (for fighting advantage) she is a good example of a pit bull in his eyes. She's getting on a bit now, and is overweight, but she is a pit bull in the eyes of one old American breeder, and of all the authorities in this country.
> 
> Here's my insurance renewal for this year. 4 days before Christmas as usual :devil:
> 
> image


I'm not buying this. I'd be interested to know what American breeder said this? No breeders dock their dogs. Game or show. This is an undocked breed. I can't see any advantage for a fighting dog not to have a tail. It is a fault to have a docked tail so a show breeder wouldn't do this either. I think it used to be DQ at one point but even if not it's always been a fault. Most dogs with cropped ears are Am Staff bred for show or pets or down to those thinking it makes their dogs look tough. Fighting dogs rarely had their ears cropped but for those who did it doesn't give any advantage, it's up to the owner/breeder liking the look. Most didn't care about looks so most were left natural. 
If you are being honest then someone told you some baloney & I wouldn't trust their word on APBTs any more then a dog wardens. Them saying she's the best rep they seen, no insult to your dog but that's not saying much. They probably haven't seen a lot of real APBT. Just dogs they themselves classed as Pit Bull types.

Her head is where a see Pit Bull features. But when looking at her body she severely lacks rear angulation and is terribly straight. The back end is worth the most points when evaluating a dog and is considered the most important because pit dogs did 90% of their work using the hind quarters. She has some problems in the front, her chest looks significantly deep. She doesnt have the overall body type of a proper Pit.


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

My hubby would love a pitbull, hes always loved them since he was younger and a friend of his had one. It was the soppiest dog i think ive ever met. Just wish they werent a banned breed here . Such a shame.


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## ChameleonFan1989 (Feb 14, 2012)

Think pits are a lovely breed <3 shame its idiotic people who caused them have such a bad reputation. My teacher had one before the ban and it was around his 3 toddlers constantly and not once in the 15 years they had him did he show aggression.

Any dog is capable of biting, attacking and causing serious damage. I have a staffordshire bull terrier, another breed with a rep and my Chihuahua is the nippy one and bring blood where as my staff is soft as a brush lol

Heard you can still smuggle Pitts in through Ireland but whether that's true, I don't know.


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

We had a lot of issues with our staffie when we moved from London. He was from one of the best bloodlines in the country and his father was the highest placing staffie in crufts history at the time ( which is never very high:devil.

But when we moved to a more rural part of kent if you didn't own a lab or a little spaniel you were looked down upon and within the first year we had been reported 3 times due to our neighbours thinking we had an "aggressive pitbull". Our boy Harvey was the soppiest little guy I have ever seen and by far the best example of a staff I have ever seen, we had been stopped by police several times to ask what breed he was and what he was crossed with to make him look that way. Then had the RSPCA knocked on the door to check what dog we had and the guy didn't believe it as he again had only seen staffs with longer legs and a slimmer head and body so ours had to be a pit bull, but after showing the guy all the paperwork and pictures of my dogs parents and grandparents he apologised and left.

People here had never seen a true staffie that was shorter and much more stocky and well built with a big head on him. But we tried to explain to people and get them to come over and see him but again people thought we were scum for owning a dangerous dog. Sadly he died of lungworm at only 4 and I don't think I will ever get another staffie just because of how perfect he was.

I am yet to meet a nice friendly Poodle,Jack Russell, Westie, or any number of little yappy chihuahua cross things, and my staffie was attacked twice by peoples little snappy terriers and the second it tore his leg up real bad and he just refused to fight back and was trying to run away. He could have killed these little rat like creatures in a heartbeat but had such a good nature he wouldnt hurt a fly even if it was trying to kill him, but again only the big scary looking dogs get a bad rep. There is a woman I often meet out on walks that has two huge Rottweiler's and I must admit I was a little apprehensive the first time I met them but after 30secs I wanted to take them home.

Kinda off topic I know (sorry for that) but it is a shame all these "dangerous" dogs are lumped into a really vague category that is based and god knows what information pulled from what might as well be wikipedia. Then worse is the fact that the "experts" have no clue what they are doing and do not have any first hand experience. Living in London I saw a lot of what people called pit bulls and god knows what they had mixed them with but they did not look like what the Americans ones do and its these bloody idiots that keep saying they own a pit bull and purposely train them to attack that is ruining it for a growing number of breeds.


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

Unfortunately I don't think I've ever met a real Pit Bull. I'm not a bull breed fan for purely superficial reasons (looks) but the proper athletic Pits (not too bulked up) are nice looking.
Neighbours in our street have a dog everyone calls a Pit, but speaking to them revealed she is actually an American Staffordshire cross. She is not good with other dogs at all, but according to her owners is very soppy with people. But because of her behaviour towards other dogs (she actually goes straight into attack) the owners are only walking her late at night now. Luckily, in Scotland Pits and the "type" (bleugh, hate that description) are not illegal, otherwise I'm sure the busy bodies around her would have reported them...
I've also yet to meet a (people) unfriendly staffy (you normally end up with them on your lap trying to lick you to death, lol). I put people in brackets because I have seen staffs that were not too keen on other dogs, but hey, I know what it's like owning a dog that just wants his own "pack" around him and no outsiders.


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## annsimpson1 (Mar 23, 2008)

its not fair to say that small dogs are worse than big ones as its down to the owner whatever the size of dog. I have a chihuahua/pappilon who's daft and freindly with everyone person or another dog, I don't pick him up when we meet a big dog but have had some that look at him like he's the next meal so he's then as wary as I am. I do have a wariness of breeds that have a bad reputation and most of those we meet seem to be owned by people who get pleasure out of seeming to be not in control and who seem to enjoy frightening people and other dogs. 99% of the people we meet when walking the dog have freindly animals that like to meet each other and that includes all sizes but there's a definate wariness of those breeds that have a bad reputation. I don't know the answer but please don't class all small or toy breeds as the same, as all those we meet are as freindly as ours, there are bad owners regardless of the size if you met mine or some of his freinds you'd know what I mean. A small breed is as capable as being freindly as a soppy bigger dog, we always seem to see the not so nice ones at the markets and car boots and they all seem to wear big studded collars and are owned by people that look the same, they are usually towing the owner along and the owner seems to think its 'fun' when the dog acts out of control when a smaller animal walks past. Luckily the 'not so nice ones' seem to steer clear of the parks and walks we go on I suppose those owners do realize they aren't wanted or else don't have their dog to enjoy and walk with others.


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

Definitely mainly the owners, I agree, although you do get dogs, that are simply content with their own company and despite thorough socialization from puppyhood, don't want to be approached (Trigger), but as long as they don't want to kill every dog they meet and are able to ignore/walk by, who cares? 
I know I play a big part in my GSD not being friendly when meeting other dogs (not all, mainly small white, entire males and "yellow" dogs), because I tense when another dog approaches. The reason being (other than Trigger having had bad experiences with the above type of dog) is that some other dog owners severely judge you if your dog doesn't want to be every other dog's BFF, it's quite sad really...
And as I said before, Trigger loves all humans and that is, IMHO, far far more important than the whole canine world being one happy dog pack, lol.

P.S: All small dogs, bar 2 Shi Tzus, in our neighbourhood are friendly to both dogs and people


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Pitbull is a gerneric term for a dog with bull x terrier type ansestoey deemed suitable of holding its own in the pit. An APBT is a pure dog with it own line of history using the american bulldog and terrier type. Amstaffs was created by bleeding Staffordshire bull terrier into APBT for the show ring. True APBT have more of a frame work of that of the pointer just a but more muscular. The buff dumpy dogs you see in the rap videos and gang films are just Pitbulls not APBT's. And if there are any true APBT's in the UK you don't know about them, thoese pople can't afford to let you know(when i say you i mean us). The dogs being sold about the UK are Britpits just gerneric cross's using legal bull type breeds, like Staffordshire bull terriers, Boxers, American bulldogs, Mastiffs etc, you get the well know liver color in them by using Chocolate labs or French mastiff, yes they can be classed as pit bulls but there not APBT. All APBT's are pitbull, but not all pitbulls are APBT's.


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

the four banned breeds are banned in the uk - includes england, wales and scotland x

yes it is ashame they lovely dogs


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## CorntasticBully (Jan 21, 2012)

gazz said:


> Pitbull is a gerneric term for a dog with bull x terrier type ansestoey deemed suitable of holding its own in the pit. *An APBT is a pure dog with it own line of history using the american bulldog and terrier type. Amstaffs was created by bleeding Staffordshire bull terrier into APBT for the show ring. *True APBT have more of a frame work of that of the pointer just a but more muscular. The buff dumpy dogs you see in the rap videos and gang films are just Pitbulls not APBT's. And if there are any true APBT's in the UK you don't know about them, thoese pople can't afford to let you know(when i say you i mean us). The dogs being sold about the UK are Britpits just gerneric cross's using legal bull type breeds, like Staffordshire bull terriers, Boxers, American bulldogs, Mastiffs etc, you get the well know liver color in them by using Chocolate labs or French mastiff, yes they can be classed as pit bulls but there not APBT. All APBT's are pitbull, but not all pitbulls are APBT's.


Do you have any evidence of AST lineage being anything other than Pit as pedigrees state or is this pure speculation? What brought you to the conclusion of SBT blood being added in and approximately when? 

I'd also like the same provided for your claim that actual pure bred APBT have descended from AB cross rather than what history states. Surely we can't trust all pedigrees of modern breeders but misrepresenting one sire for another would still mean the dogs came from the same foundation. Even if a different breed was snuck into the gene pool on rare occasion that's a lot different than crossing Am Bulldog to Terriers. Don't see how this theory holds a shred of truth. For a breed that originated across the pond to be descended from anything American isn't logical. 

Pit Bull is short for American Pit Bull Terrier. Using it as a "generic" term is what leads to confusion and the issues with BSL labeling dogs PBs when they are not. Those dogs get caught up due to ignorance. APBTs were the dogs actually bred for "the pit" and I'd hardly believe those dumpy dogs or more likely Am Bully would be considered suitable for the pit. So they don't fit your definition of a "Pitbull" either.


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