# boas?



## amyloveys (Jan 12, 2008)

i have a female surinam red tail x common boa and im waiting for a pastel poss het kahl strain albino male. What will i get if they breed? And if i was to get another female what would you recommend?


----------



## ez4pro (Sep 19, 2007)

amyloveys said:


> i have a female surinam red tail x common boa and im waiting for a pastel poss het kahl strain albino male. What will i get if they breed? And if i was to get another female what would you recommend?


 
the suri x common is a comon 50% suri so breed that to your pastal het kahl and 50% will be pastal comons 25% suri and 50% het kahl albino (working on yours being 100%) the other 50% of the litter will be commons 25% suri 50% kahl albino

I would get a female salmon het kahl albino if I were you that way you could produce pastal sunglows

Cheers

Chris


----------



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

ez4pro said:


> the suri x common is a comon 50% suri so breed that to your pastal het kahl and 50% will be pastal comons 25% suri and 50% het kahl albino (working on yours being 100%) the other 50% of the litter will be commons 25% suri 50% kahl albino
> 
> I would get a female salmon het kahl albino if I were you that way you could produce pastal sunglows
> 
> ...


You can't get het surinam. As soon as you breed a common (either a normal or a morph) to a surinam none of the offspring can ever be surinam...only commons with a surinam influence. So from that pairing you'd just get 50% pastels which were 50% het kahl and 50% normals which were 50% het kahl (as the last person said, only if yours is only 100% het).

If I were you I'd buy a kahl albino female and that way if your male is 100% het you'd get a chance of pastel albinos.


----------



## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

intravenous said:


> You can't get het surinam. As soon as you breed a common (either a normal or a morph) to a surinam none of the offspring can ever be surinam...only commons with a surinam influence. So from that pairing you'd just get 50% pastels which were 50% het kahl and 50% normals which were 50% het kahl (as the last person said, only if yours is only 100% het).
> 
> If I were you I'd buy a kahl albino female and that way if your male is 100% het you'd get a chance of pastel albinos.


see i see it as a bit of both. the offspring in my opinion are mutts - they must be advertised as having bcc influence otherwise people buying apparent bci's are actually getting hybrid animals

i agree though - i wouldnt bother calculating suri influence, merely say with suri incluence, and work on the genetics which i believe chris has done


----------



## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

carpy said:


> see i see it as a bit of both. the offspring in my opinion are mutts - they must be advertised as having bcc influence otherwise people buying apparent bci's are actually getting hybrid animals
> 
> i agree though - i wouldnt bother calculating suri influence, merely say with suri incluence, and work on the genetics which i believe chris has done


Yes, I agree that if you are a respectable breeder you will inform any buyers that they have suriname influence and are not "pure" BCI's (I missed this out because I guess nowadays a lot of commons are already mutts themselves and not pure BCI). I wouldn't however call it "het" because that suggests there is a gene responsible for the suriname appearance and that a suriname could be recovered by breeding two "het" surinames together which just isn't the case. There's nothing wrong with saying 25% suriname influence or parentage though.


----------



## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

intravenous said:


> Yes, I agree that if you are a respectable breeder you will inform any buyers that they have suriname influence and are not "pure" BCI's (I missed this out because I guess nowadays a lot of commons are already mutts themselves and not pure BCI). I wouldn't however call it "het" because that suggests there is a gene responsible for the suriname appearance and that a suriname could be recovered by breeding two "het" surinames together which just isn't the case. There's nothing wrong with saying 25% suriname influence or parentage though.


yea i agree - i wouldnt bother with the % of surinam influence simply because imo its a worthless statistic - once thats been added it is a mutt so it could be 99% suri its still not the real deal.


----------



## ez4pro (Sep 19, 2007)

intravenous said:


> You can't get het surinam. As soon as you breed a common (either a normal or a morph) to a surinam none of the offspring can ever be surinam...only commons with a surinam influence. So from that pairing you'd just get 50% pastels which were 50% het kahl and 50% normals which were 50% het kahl (as the last person said, only if yours is only 100% het).
> 
> If I were you I'd buy a kahl albino female and that way if your male is 100% het you'd get a chance of pastel albinos.


I was refering to the percentage of parent influence rather than it being "Het" for surinam. Like In sunset crosses that are 50% Hogg

Cheers

Chris


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

why breed a bcc with a bci anyway? is it just a case of doing it for the sake of breeding?

they would all just be mongrels


----------



## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

it already is a mongrel the boa she has is a BCI BCC cross so makes no dif now to breed with a BCI


----------



## amyloveys (Jan 12, 2008)

so basically my boa i have now is crap?


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

It's not "crap" - obviously you must have liked her or you wouldn't have bought her - but she is useless to produce pure animals of either subspecies; most people who are buying pricey genetic-morph boas WILL want pure animals of one or the other subspecies.

I would keep the female as a pet (or get another cross BCI/BCC for her) - and get a female Kahl albino for your pastel possible-het male.


----------



## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

amyloveys said:


> so basically my boa i have now is crap?


As apet not crap no, both mine are mongrels, but they are still gorgeous.

Although if you want to talk in terms of purely financial gain then yes its crap. sorry


----------



## amyloveys (Jan 12, 2008)

thanks terry! Well im going to keep her, get a pastel het kahl albino girl and a kahl albino boy . Sound good?


----------



## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

its not meant in a bad way, like I say mine are basically mutts but I think they are gorgeous and I wouldn't part with either of them, but I would never breed either of them with a pure bred boa or morph as it would just devalue the bloodline.

Financialy your second idea makes much more sense.


----------



## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

amyloveys said:


> so basically my boa i have now is crap?


I would disagree strongly that mixed BCC and BCI are crap. My "Mutt" (very similiar heritage to yours by the sound of it) is probably one of the prettiest boas I have ever seen. Breeding wise I'd only echo what has already been said and recommend you breeding her to a nice morph of some kind as you will find it very hard to shift common looking hybrid babies, most people want either one or the other.


----------



## Alpha Dog (Jan 3, 2008)

amyloveys said:


> so basically my boa i have now is crap?


Certainly not crap, Im sure its a nice pet!

I strive to keep all my boa breedings pure, but to each his own. : victory:


----------



## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

I never said the animal was crap, only that it would be crap at making any decent money from breedings.

Its a bit pointless breeding a cross bred animal with an expensive morph. It would be like going out and buying a pedigree Doberman and breeding it with the first stray that walked past. The pups might be gorgeous, but they would be cheap.

I love boas and think they are all gorgeous, mutts have their place, not everyone can afford a pedigree animal. Me included at the moment :bash:

The advice was if you are going to bred Kahl strain albinos you really need to do it with pure bloodline animals.


----------



## martynandkirsty (Jan 13, 2008)

what makes you think that the khal bloodline is pure. breeders have bin useing bcc to inprove there morphs for years and years. who nos just how pure there bci's are if they are pure at all


----------



## amyloveys (Jan 12, 2008)

ell its all settled i have my common surinam female mutt lol and a pastel het kahl albino female and im getting a kahl albino male when one comes up :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

martynandkirsty said:


> what makes you think that the khal bloodline is pure. breeders have bin useing bcc to inprove there morphs for years and years. who nos just how pure there bci's are if they are pure at all


I know albinos aren't likely to be pure bloodlines, what I meant in this case is that breeding a het khal with a normal is pretty pointless. Your only going to get basically normal prices. If it was a visual khal strain would be a bit dif as at least the offspring would be 100% het and would fetch more money.

The pure bloodline thing got taken off on a bit of a tangent.


----------



## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

As I mentioned on another thread, I think all boa constrictors in this country of unknown origin should be classed as simply that '_Boa constrictor'_ that way there is no confusion. You should only state a known subspecies when you can trace it's lineage back to a wild-caught locale. 'Bci' and 'Bcc' are exactly the same species (So NO a Bci x Bcc is NOT a hybrid, it is an intergrade) so applying hybrid style percentages is meaningless IMO.


Also I disagree with all of the posts that (ignoring hets and 'mutts' for a second) state a pastel x normal will give 50/50 mix of pastel and normal in the litter.

Pastel is a line bred trait, meaning that the animal has been 'created' over a period of generations with breederd only picking the brightest, cleanest individuals from each litter to breed. It is no a genetic mutation and is not inherited in a simple Medelevian way (it is polygenic i.e. effected by the interactions of many genes, not just a simple mutation at a single allele).

The pastel parent will certainly have an effect on the offspring and you would expect to have some very clean, light animals in the litter, but equally you will have some 'normal' and (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT BIT) a number of animals on a sliding scale between the two. Some will be good enough to be called 'pastel', some wouldn't. As that choice is ultimately up to the seller (and buyer) many 'pastels' on the market are nothing more than cleanish normals.


Cheers

Andy


----------



## amyloveys (Jan 12, 2008)

thank you very much for your input the best response so fari believe!


----------



## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

eeji said:


> why breed a bcc with a bci anyway? is it just a case of doing it for the sake of breeding?
> 
> they would all just be mongrels


I have a suriname bcc x hypo / pastel bci.

I know where you're coming from, but in my case it produced the most beautiful snake in my collection.

But crossing a bcc to a normal bci can only explained as follows:

Let's say you have a common bci that is ready for breading, and you happen to have a bcc that is also ready for breeding. Then you have it a go, to see if the female will get pregnant.

More often than not it will produce nice babies that even though you will sell them as crosses and for the price of a common boa, could be a good breeding experience.


----------



## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

amyloveys said:


> i have a female surinam red tail x common boa and im waiting for a pastel poss het kahl strain albino male. What will i get if they breed? And if i was to get another female what would you recommend?


Hi, I haven't read all other replies, so sorry if I end up saying the same thing others have said.

First of all, how certain are you that the snake you're getting is a possible het for kahl albino ?

If I were you I'd ask to see the parents, picture of the litter and paperwork stating its genetics.

Otherwise, you might be paying top dollar for a snake that might not have a chance in hell of being het. There are several cases of people who bought snakes sold as 100% het, and they never proved out.

To be honest, I'd not breed your two snakes together, because you'd have a litter of common boas only.

It would make more sense for you to get a female het for kahl albino so in the future you could prove your male out.

I'd keep your female bcc x bci cross because it's always good to have a common female in the collection.

Let's say that you buy a visual albino male in the future and cross with her, you'd have a litter of 100% het for khal albino.

If you buy a co-do snake such as a hypo which are beautiful and going cheap at the moment, you can cross with her and get 50% normals + 50% hypos.


----------



## Roewammi (Mar 23, 2008)

Dexter said:


> Hi, I haven't read all other replies, so sorry if I end up saying the same thing others have said.
> 
> First of all, how certain are you that the snake you're getting is a possible het for kahl albino ?
> 
> ...


 

Amyloveys has the female now. i know the breeder as I have the snake in questions clutch mate, the parents were salmon 100% het khal albino dad and common BCI mum so it is actually a common BCI poss 50% het khal albino. They did make a very pretty clutch and amyloveys boa is very pretty, lots of lovely speckling and rich browns


----------



## Dexter (Jun 24, 2005)

That's good news that the snake is confirmed to be 50% het for kahl.

In that case, you should get either a 100% het kahl male or a visual kahl albino to go with her in the future.

When they get to breed, if the 50% het proves out to be a het, you will get as follows:

het albino female x het albino male = 25% of the litter albino + 50% of the litter 100% het albino + 25% of the litter normal

het albino female x visual albino = 50% of the litter albino + 50% of the litter 100% het albino

In the worst case scenario, where your 50% het proves to be normal, you can still produce what follows:

normal female x het albino = 50% of the litter 100% het albino + 50% of the litter normal

normal female x visual albino = all litter will be 100% het albino


----------



## Roewammi (Mar 23, 2008)

Dexter said:


> That's good news that the snake is confirmed to be 50% het for kahl.
> 
> In that case, you should get either a 100% het kahl male or a visual kahl albino to go with her in the future.
> 
> ...


 
thats what i plan on doing but other way round as mine is male and i have a 100% het female whos ready to go now but just my het male is only an 08!lol! just seems like myself and amyloveys have been given diff info on the parents but i have both snakes in a picture with others from when i chose mine so it would be nice to see what they both produce in the future!


----------

