# Young Diamondback Rattler vs Old



## xoneringx (Sep 3, 2010)

So, I'm in a chatroom and a guy has just told me something about Diamondbacks that I simply cannot believe.

According to this person, a youngster is much more deadly than an adult because it cannot control how much venom it injects when striking. Whilst the latter may be true, I struggle to believe how this could make the animal more dangerous. Surely, the youngster cannot hold as much venom as the adult? It's simply physics.

I am willing to accept that they use all of their venom, but does that make them more deadly than the adults?

Appreciate the help!


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## Smivers (Apr 17, 2011)

No idea. But one thing I do know is that i wouldn't wanna be the one to find out. I bet they both sting a little.


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## xoneringx (Sep 3, 2010)

Update - This person thinks this because a friend told him one time when he was in "NAM", whatever that is.

Update - He now backs up his claim, stating that he "knows game wardens".

Update - He now further backs up his claim, stating that he is "55 years old".


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Hmm... ive heard of bites from young snakes of some species being potentially more complicated because they have a more complex cocktail of toxins in their venom than their adult counterparts, but in ALL cases will inject a smaller yield than the adults - they are simply smaller!

Some snakes have potent enough venom to kill over a hundred adult humans with one venom yield - the adult and youngster 'control' over the amount they 'choose' to inject into you, would make very little difference in my book...

Not to mention the fact that a bite from the same snake to two different people could have TOTALLY different effects...


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## Dragon Wolf (Oct 27, 2009)

xoneringx said:


> Update - This person thinks this because a friend told him one time when he was in "NAM", whatever that is.
> 
> Update - He now backs up his claim, stating that he "knows game wardens".
> 
> Update - He now further backs up his claim, stating that he is "55 years old".


Hi mate, i won't be any help on the venom question simply because i don't know, but being in NAM is normally an acronym given by veterans of the Veitnam war, which really means nothing except that he and/or his friend could have been veterans of said war.

Knowing game wardens doesn't neccasarily mean anything regarding snake venom [i know a couple and they know no more than me, which isn't much].

How does his age make a differance?


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## xoneringx (Sep 3, 2010)

Dragon Wolf said:


> Hi mate, i won't be any help on the venom question simply because i don't know, but being in NAM is normally an acronym given by veterans of the Veitnam war, which really means nothing except that he and/or his friend could have been veterans of said war.
> 
> Knowing game wardens doesn't neccasarily mean anything regarding snake venom [i know a couple and they know no more than me, which isn't much].
> 
> How does his age make a differance?


I agree with you completely. I asked him to link me to his sources and that's what he came out with.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Essentially he is wrong. There have been lots of studies into flow rates, etc and even juvies will meter out there venom. they will not use 100% in either a defensive strike or a strike at prey. an adult will usually inject around 20% of its total stock. even if a juvenile gave 100% it would be less than an adult, injecting 20%.
But either will be potentially leathal. PDR has written somewhere about his Atrox bite, it was a 7 week old snake and he needed 20 ampules of AV.

Below is part of a paper i saved a while back done by Bangor uni i think.

Author(s): Young BA, Zahn K
Source: JOURNAL OF EXPERIMENTAL BIOLOGY Volume: 204 Issue: 24 Pages: 4345-4351 Published: DEC 2001

Abstract: The functional morphology of venom injection in Crotalus atrox was explored using high-speed digital videography combined with direct recording of venom flow using perivascular flow probes. Although venom flow was variable, in most strikes the onset of venom flow was coincidental with fang penetration, and retrograde flow (venom suction) was observed prior to fang withdrawal. The duration of venom flow was consistently less than the duration of fang penetration. The occurrence of retrograde flow, 'dry bites' (which accounted for 35% of the strikes) and unilateral strikes all support a hypothesis for venom pooling in the distal portion of the venom-delivery system. No significant difference in temporal or volumetric aspects of venom flow were found between defensive strikes directed at small and large rodents. With the species and size of target held constant, the duration of venom flow, maximum venom flow rate and total venom volume were all significantly lower in predatory than in defensive strikes.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

I have often seen it stated that young venomous snakes have not yet learned to control the quantity of venom they deliver and are thus more dangerous. I am yet to see any evidence to back up this statement. It is not possible to accurately determine how much venom has been delivered into somebody that has been bitten (without homogenising them!), a simple experiment would tell us the answer, but I don't know of anybody that has done it and published the results. Certainly an adult is capable of delivering a much larger venom dose if it so wishes, but a neonate diamondback is perfectly capable of delivering a medically significant envenomation. One would think that there is a strong selective pressure on young individuals to control the amount of venom they deliver as soon as they are born, if anything venom is even more precious a resource for a smaller snake with limited reserves.

Composition has been shown to be different in different age classes in a number of venomous snakes, but not necessarily more complex. Even so, higher complexity does not equate to higher human toxicity. 

David.


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## Rikki (Mar 27, 2007)

DavidR said:


> I have often seen it stated that young venomous snakes have not yet learned to control the quantity of venom they deliver and are thus more dangerous. I am yet to see any evidence to back up this statement. It is not possible to accurately determine how much venom has been delivered into somebody that has been bitten (without homogenising them!), a simple experiment would tell us the answer, but I don't know of anybody that has done it and published the results. Certainly an adult is capable of delivering a much larger venom dose if it so wishes, but a neonate diamondback is perfectly capable of delivering a medically significant envenomation. One would think that there is a strong selective pressure on young individuals to control the amount of venom they deliver as soon as they are born, if anything venom is even more precious a resource for a smaller snake with limited reserves.
> 
> Composition has been shown to be different in different age classes in a number of venomous snakes, but not necessarily more complex. Even so, higher complexity does not equate to higher human toxicity.
> 
> David.


This paper suggests they learn how much venom to inject pretty quickly. However, it focuses on predatory rather than defensive strikes. 

http://www.hotkeepers.com/aho/pdf/menu5/hayes1995.pdf


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## xoneringx (Sep 3, 2010)

I confronted him with this thread today, you're all idiots apparently. :2thumb:

He knows, he saw it on the National Geographic channel! (Something which he neglected to mention yesterday, incidentally)


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

xoneringx said:


> I confronted him with this thread today, you're all idiots apparently. :2thumb:
> 
> He knows, he saw it on the National Geographic channel! (Something which he neglected to mention yesterday, incidentally)


 
well we must be then:whistling2: anyway who the ***** cares


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