# Water Dragon and Mountain Horned dragon questions (cohabiting)?



## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Hello, first of all to clear this up I am most definately not intending to do this but this question has really got me thinking.

I have read one or two times on this forum that some people have succesfuly housed a Mountain Horned Dragon and a Chinese Water Dragon together succesfully with no problems.

Here are some things that have confused me.

A water dragons temeperature of basking should be around 83 and 88F which is 28-31 Degrees celcius.
A nightime temperature should consisit of 75-80F never going below 70 which is 24-27 degrees celcius
Water Dragons do well with a high temeperature, whereas Horned Dragons do not and thrive in a cooler temperature.

Many Horned dragons have died at the temperatures set above (this is a mistake many keepers make with them)
A Horned Dragons temperature should be around 25C (_78F_) to 27C (_81F_)

So how can a lizard that potentially thrives at lower temperatures succesfully be housed with a water dragon that lives with potentially high day time temperatures.
The chinese water dragons nightime temperature is equivilent to what a horned dragons daytime temperature is. (or near abouts) if a horned dragon is exposed to extremely hot temperatures like the daytime temp of a water dragon they have and do drop down dead, so how do you do this.

Even for the Seriouse enthusiast who wants a mixture of speicies it is still hard and still potentially dangerouse to the animals involved?

Some threads that mention this are here.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/492230-mountain-horned-dragon-acanthosaura-capra.html
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...gon-cwd.html?highlight=mountain+horned+dragon

and there are some threads I cannot seem to find at the moment, will give it a shot a bit later on, my main point though, people say they are the same as chinese water dragons, they most definately are not, in any way?
How can you manage to get two lizards to live together that potentially thrive at completely different temperatures.

To top this off
A fully grown chinese water dragon can grow to be 3ft including the tail.
A Horned Dragon can grow to be 300mm (12") snout to vent

Where is the logic? 

People say both Water Dragons and Horned Dragons need UV so if the water dragon was sat at the top of the enclisure and a horned dragon at the bottom, how would it thrive to gain its UVB because if it went to the top, it is probibly going to die from the heat, and usually very very quickly.

So again I just cannot make sense of it?

There are a few threads I have read on here that people have housed them together with no problems I am interested to know how this works that is all.

(I made the mistake when I first began keeping them by setting them up like a water dragon because information was scarece on them then) well to me anyways. (I am not the first and doubt I will be the last)

Honestly, but people have done this succesfully (succesful in human eyes does not make it right) but either way please share some information on this how you have done this.

I am not going to have a go at anyone as I KNOW my post seems to come across a bit critical, it really is not intended to come out that way, I am merely interested.

Please do not shout anyone down who posts? I am just interested.

Thanks for Reading 

Regards
Dixon.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

apoligies... both those links were wrong.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/8081-mountain-horned-dragon-chinese-water-2.html

this was another forum
Chinese water dragon housed with a mountain horned dragon- what can I expect?

they have different requirements
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/53155-mountain-horned-dragon.html the only thing that is the same is the humidity, the substrate and the climbing... temperature, diet, etc are all different:devil:

Reptiles: Water Dragon and Mountain Horned Dragon, chinese water dragon, mountain horned lizard

Some members have done this very thing of housing them both together ?
I have spoke to a few of them in the past... some threads I remember chatting on dont seem to appear in the search engine for one reason or another? 

anyways I am still interested:hmm:


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Couldn't have asked something simple could you 

I don't understand this at all, I don't even understand how people can cohabit with species of the same environment sometimes without them fighting. I hope you find your answer as you have now got me curious lol!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Well a simple question would be how do you cohabit a water dragon and a horned dragon?

When both require very different needs and one of those daytime temperature will kill one lizard or the other?

to be honest I very much doubt I will get an answer to this because I know I am right :2thumb:


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Well a simple question would be how do you cohabit a water dragon and a horned dragon?
> 
> When both require very different needs and one of those daytime temperature will kill one lizard or the other?
> 
> to be honest I very much doubt I will get an answer to this because I know I am right :2thumb:


Are you sure that whoever did this was not simply an idiot?


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Well a simple question would be how do you cohabit a water dragon and a horned dragon?
> 
> When both require very different needs and one of those daytime temperature will kill one lizard or the other?
> 
> to be honest I very much doubt I will get an answer to this because I know I am right :2thumb:


It would appear that you are making the assumption that the temperature across this hypothetical tank is constant, and not a gradient, which I imagine could easily produce temperatures appropriate for both species.

That said, both species (and ALL reptiles) will actively thermoregulate in temperatures much exceeding the temperatures they are commonly kept at in captivity. They simply require less exposure to higher temperatures to achieve adequate body temperature for metabolism.

Andy


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> It would appear that you are making the assumption that the temperature across this hypothetical tank is constant, and not a gradient, which I imagine could easily produce temperatures appropriate for both species.
> 
> That said, both species (and ALL reptiles) will actively thermoregulate in temperatures much exceeding the temperatures they are commonly kept at in captivity. They simply require less exposure to higher temperatures to achieve adequate body temperature for metabolism.
> 
> Andy


I was hoping you would see this thread.

Yes I am assuming that the temperature would be constant.

But that still does not explain how a horned dragon would receive sufficient UVB when it would likely as not drop down dead from the high temperature, they dont need to be exposed to it for very long.

But even a gradient temperature for setting up one would be completely different to the other?

Having Kept a Horned Dragon in a complete different setup, and looking after water dragons both temperatures and gradients etc are completely different so again I cannot see the logic, if you were to cool down a water dragon enclosure for eg, then the horned dragon would probibly thrive but then the water dragon is going to suffer then: victory:

Oh its a headache lol.

I am not saying that it cannot be done because it is clear many people have done this so I am merely interested to know how this is acheived.

The "hypothetical" enclosure as you put it was a 4x2x2 if that? 
probibly a young water dragon setup I would imagine.
Even in a large adult water dragon enclosure I still see the UVB problem with the temperature (if that makes sense)

To do this effectively I would assume you would need a huge enclosure about 6ft long and 6ft high, but the people I speak of dont have enclosures that size.
If a horned dragon was living with a water dragon, the chances are that the horned dragon is sat at the bottom all the time escaping from heat at the top, as a result not getting the the UVB it requires unless the tube was actually fixed onto the side? who knows maybey I answerd my own question there.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

The UVb issue, it really a non-starter, as this assumes that you are restricted to either a single source (which is inappropriately sized - or could be MVB or similar - although perhaps not in this size tank) OR that your thermal gradient works only in a single direction (which is unrealistic) thus preventing access to a top mounted tube.

Basically put, 4x2x2 would be insufficient IMO (although I don't keep either of these species, so have not tried it), but it should be feasible in a 4x4x2. I see no problem with achieving a 3D thermal gradient suitable for both species (albeit potentially a little restrictive for the CWD), with the addition of multiple basking sites (independently stat'd) and appropriate UVb positioning (multiple sources if needed) it should be possible.

Whether or not I would do it or not...

Andy


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> The UVb issue, it really a non-starter, as this assumes that you are restricted to either a single source (which is inappropriately sized - or could be MVB or similar - although perhaps not in this size tank) OR that your thermal gradient works only in a single direction (which is unrealistic) thus preventing access to a top mounted tube.
> 
> Basically put, 4x2x2 would be insufficient IMO (although I don't keep either of these species, so have not tried it), but it should be feasible in a 4x4x2. I see no problem with achieving a 3D thermal gradient suitable for both species (albeit potentially a little restrictive for the CWD), with the addition of multiple basking sites (independently stat'd) and appropriate UVb positioning (multiple sources if needed) it should be possible.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, I deffo see that side of it, still by the time you paid for all of that and multipe uv sources etc you may aswell just buy another enclosure:2thumb:

I deffo agree, that those who have done this there setups and displays would have been extremely nice looking etc, 
I do not know whether the water dragons were young but an enclosure that size for an adult is deffinately restrictive.
I would never try something like this but it did get my mind ticking just thinking more and more about it.

If it interests you with horned dragons in the future Andy, they are wonderful Lizards and very interesting little things to keep, the problem is most of them are wild caught and riddled in disease and illness which brings up some other questions on co habiting them with what could be a captive bred animal.

This year however I have seen more and more keepers getting into this, and breeding captive bred horned dragons.
That can only be a good thing


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Perhaps, although the level of difficulty associated with this type of enclosure could provide a 'reward' (i.e. the achievement) which is not achievable with separate enclosures. As it goes, I would not consider this 'mix' incompatible by default. There are of course, those that I would. 

It does frustrate me a little that there is a general perception on here (mainly by those that shout the loudest) that if you go against some commonly held opinions, then you must be wrong. This is infrequently the case though...

The long and the short for me is that there are MANY different ways of achieving a given result. If you have the understanding and ability, then you can choose which ever option you want.

Andy


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Its worth adding for anyone reading the posts above. The real key point, is being able to recognize failure before it leads to serious health issues. This is NOT easy, and requires a level of understanding of each species which is only garnered through hands on experience and time.

Andy


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

You can essentially configure the setup, as follows.

A high and large tank (for a CWD) would have far higher heat to the top, if you relied on the basking lamp and higher heating sources to supply the water dragons temperatures, then the base area of the tank would be lower (atleast enough for the MHD)

Fixing a UVB Tube along the backwall Diagonally from top to bottom would give a full spectrum of UVB throughout for the both animals, then with the sufficient hiding plants and branches you would have for a CWD, the MHD would be able to survive.

I can see how it would be achieveable, but I can't see why you would, it would severely diminish the MHD's quality of life, and should the CWD fancy it could quite easily kill the little guy.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Perhaps, although the level of difficulty associated with this type of enclosure could provide a 'reward' (i.e. the achievement) which is not achievable with separate enclosures. As it goes, I would not consider this 'mix' incompatible by default. There are of course, those that I would.
> 
> It does frustrate me a little that there is a general perception on here (mainly by those that shout the loudest) that if you go against some commonly held opinions, then you must be wrong. This is infrequently the case though...
> 
> ...


 
This is true, the general perception though is very easily recognised as wrong to the common hobbyist/enthusiast is that accidents have and do happen also, so it is very easy to see where they come from.
I also recall you mentioning something similar on my iguana thread that you look at things of having many different ways of acheiving it.

Lets look at it this way, it is argued and debated among hobbyists about keeping the *same* animals together let alone 2 very different ones.
two of the same species can and do fight each other off, even females have been known to do this to the males. (bearded dragons mainly in this instance) so to someone in the hobby who knows pretty much the basics and someone does this, it is easy to see there side of the argument.

I am one of those people who would never cohabit (unless it was the same animal in question), but that is my own choice, I will never say it cannot be done, but this interests me so very much how to speices can thrive together which require different husbandry in that, in this case you gave an adequate answer but in my own view an animals welfare is more important than pleasing the eye: victory:

Yeah I can definately see where you are comming from with the lack of the "reward"

As you rightly say you would need to have good knowledge of both or all speices to know when something was wrong.

Which would then bring up another point, if something did go wrong is it not a wise decision to have a back up enclosure anyway?
In turn then it can be argued that you might aswell keep the two separate anyways and find another of the same species to cohabit.

you brought up some good points and aspects as always Andy: victory:


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

But if you ever do want to cohabit something different with a CWD, Turtle's Thrive well :2thumb: : victory:


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## SteveCourty (Oct 4, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Perhaps, although the level of difficulty associated with this type of enclosure could provide a 'reward' (i.e. the achievement) which is not achievable with separate enclosures. As it goes, I would not consider this 'mix' incompatible by default. There are of course, those that I would.
> 
> It does frustrate me a little that there is a general perception on here (mainly by those that shout the loudest) that if you go against some commonly held opinions, then you must be wrong. This is infrequently the case though...
> 
> ...


Best comment ive read on here in a while. I left here originally as I was annoyed by the keyboard warriors shouting at anyone who didnt keep their beardie, leo etc the exact same way as them.

On topic I dont think Id ever do it. With the delicate nature of capri and other species itd be too risky. I think it could be possible though with a large enougth setup where a thermal gradient can suit both by running several basking spots across a wide viv


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

SteveCourty said:


> Best comment ive read on here in a while. I left here originally as I was annoyed by the keyboard warriors shouting at anyone who didnt keep their beardie, leo etc the exact same way as them.
> 
> On topic I dont think Id ever do it. With the delicate nature of capri and other species itd be too risky. I think it could be possible though with a large enougth setup where a thermal gradient can suit both by running several basking spots across a wide viv


 
Good to see you back mate  

The Problem is Steve, people do not seem to relise that if we were all the same, their would be no need to log onto the forum:whistling2:
and thus it would be a very very dull and boring world.

thanks for the comment.


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## Rthompson (Feb 19, 2011)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Good to see you back mate
> 
> The Problem is Steve, people do not seem to relise that if we were all the same, their would be no need to log onto the forum:whistling2:
> and thus it would be a very very dull and boring world.
> ...


Damn Straight, Robot's are boring : victory:


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> This is true, the general perception though is very easily recognised as wrong to the common hobbyist/enthusiast is that accidents have and do happen also, so it is very easy to see where they come from.
> I also recall you mentioning something similar on my iguana thread that you look at things of having many different ways of acheiving it.
> 
> Lets look at it this way, it is argued and debated among hobbyists about keeping the *same* animals together let alone 2 very different ones.
> ...


I'm really not suggesting that mixing these species is a good idea (more that it is not, _per se_ a bad one), more that 'we' cannot suggest that anyone that does it, is daft. To do this correctly, requires a lot of expertise, and thus surely we should encourage those that try it to share their experiences (positive AND negative) in an environment that encourages forward thinking, and not one that slates those that do things differently (not suggesting the latter is you though Dixon). Without people pushing boundaries, we will never learn. Of course, I must put some limits onto this... pushing boundaries, with no basic understanding will lead to personal disaster.

Andy


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Rthompson said:


> Damn Straight, Robot's are boring : victory:


We are like Laurel and Hardy me and you  



GlasgowGecko said:


> I'm really not suggesting that mixing these species is a good idea (more that it is not, _per se_ a bad one), more that 'we' cannot suggest that anyone that does it, is daft. To do this correctly, requires a lot of expertise, and thus surely we should encourage those that try it to share their experiences (positive AND negative) in an environment that encourages forward thinking, and not one that slates those that do things differently (not suggesting the latter is you though Dixon). Without people pushing boundaries, we will never learn. Of course, I must put some limits onto this... pushing boundaries, with no basic understanding will lead to personal disaster.
> 
> Andy


I completely agree Andy which is why I stated at the bottom of my first post, I knew it may to some people come across critical but that is not my intention, like you yourself say it should be encouraged  to share expiriences. (which is kind of what my post was about)

Oh I know your posts well enough now Andy to know you were not implying I was the Latter lol.


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## Bristolherps (May 17, 2011)

I did manage to keep both species together very successfully in the past.

It isn't something i would do again and i eventually split them up in to separate enclosures but i think the simple answer as to how to do it is go BIG with the enclosure, as you rightfully mentioned they need completely different temperature gradients, this is achieved by providing a large enough enclosure with multiple basking and UV access.

I actually bough both species from a place where they were already being kept together and that the reason i continued to do so. They did fine for over a year or so but like i said i decided to remove them after such a time.

Any more questions i would be happy to answer! 

sam


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bristolherps said:


> I did manage to keep both species together very successfully in the past.
> 
> It isn't something i would do again and i eventually split them up in to separate enclosures but i think the simple answer as to how to do it is go BIG with the enclosure, as you rightfully mentioned they need completely different temperature gradients, this is achieved by providing a large enough enclosure with multiple basking and UV access.
> 
> ...


Thankyou for replying Sam, you may have been one of those people I chatted to about a year or so ago about this.
I am pleased you replied 

One question though.
How did youget them to thrive to be healthy for a year and what size enclosure did you use?


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## Bristolherps (May 17, 2011)

Not a problem.

Well first off the viv was originally set-up for water dragons, had no intention of getting horned dragons to but we all suffer from impulse buys :whistling2:

The viv was 7' high x 4' x 4' so Pretty substantial, A high temp basking spot at the top of the viv and a lower watt bulb in a cage at the bottom of the viv. Had pond fitted in the bottom with flowing water which was to benefit the water dragons of course! 

I think the key was providing the lower temp basking spot at the bottom of the viv as well as a second UVB bulb. As the horned dragons tend to stay lower down in the viv in the cooler temps anyway they never really had to venture up to the top where the temps were much higher.

Also had mini fans installed in the viv to regulate air temp. Plenty of basking/pitching and hiding spots.

I had a pair of water dragons and trio of horned dragons for well over a year and like i said no problems what so ever.

But i will add overall, as with many mixed vivs plenty of research and more importantly "LUCK"!

hope this helps
sam


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bristolherps said:


> Not a problem.
> 
> Well first off the viv was originally set-up for water dragons, had no intention of getting horned dragons to but we all suffer from impulse buys :whistling2:
> 
> ...


Very very true, my first horned dragons were bought on impulse 
but before I continue, I have one more question.

Did you know when you bought your Horned Dragons that the majority of them were wild caught and usually carry parasites that could potentially have contaminiated your Water Dragons?

( I will be honest and say no I did not know this ontil afterward when I asked for a refund) the female died in less than 24 hours when I brought her home.
If not did you notice any behavior differently in your animals before there lives had ended. (sorry if I misunderstood and you still have them)

This is not always the case though, my firs horned dragon was wild caught, his partner died but he survived, I had him for 2 years (he was an adult size then) that was 4 years ago, he was then donated to Durham colleges animal care department because of a situation I found myself in, so far as I know he is doing very well and is still healthy.

So he is at least 6 years old that I know of, knowing when I got and aquired him it would take about 2 years to reach his size.

Also had it ever crossed your mind to just buy a separate enclosure in that year you had them, by the time you installed fans etc it would have probibly been cheaper or nearly the same price, or as Andy stated was it the effectiveness of your setup that did not make you change it sooner.

I am assuming that your water dragon never showed any signs of aggresion? I find that very interesting, My horned dragons viv used to be next to my geckos and neither of them liked one another, also in the shop I worked in at the time, the horned dragons enclosure was right next to the water dragons and the water dragons would on occasion try to bite the glass to try and get to them. (which is another reason this thread inspired me)

and most definately it sounds like it was LUCK, but having said that your enclosure size seems to have been big and impressive, perhaps it became a bit of a mitigated thing, just meaning that perhaps it wasnt a black or white view on the entire situation.

p.s I have no doubt your setup would have looked stunning, although I disagree with it, I bet it was very appealing to the eye: victory:


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## Bristolherps (May 17, 2011)

I did but, as far as i remember, the WD's i bought were in with the horns when i bought them, hence the set-up!

All of them were wormed and treated for mites, standard procedure.

Nearly all horns of course are wild caught and alot don't survive long in captivity. Shame as i like the species and wouldn't mind some more.

As for any change in behavior, cant say i did. They were always placid animals, never noticed any aggression between the CWD and the horns, if there was they would have been split! regularly witnessed both feeding at the same time. The reason i split in the end was purely because the CWD's were rapidly out growing the horns and that when i new the trouble could start.

Like i said its not something i would do again, this was a fair few years ago, but it was done and it worked. luck or not it was an impressive set-up at the time and ill try dig out some photos if i can find them, you can see one of the CWD and horns in my avatar!

And no longer have the horns, one passed after around 4-5 years and sold the other two and the CWD a few years back while i was renovating the herp room! Have more WD's now but no horns....yet! 

sam


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Bristolherps said:


> I did but, as far as i remember, the WD's i bought were in with the horns when i bought them, hence the set-up!
> 
> All of them were wormed and treated for mites, standard procedure.
> 
> ...


Thanks once again, I did just notice the avatar when I was reading  yeah pics would be appreciated if and when you get the chance.
I think in many ways we are likley to get along fine here as both of those lizards are 2 of my favorites, iguanas obviously come first as they are my best area of knowledge and I have had more expirence with them 

I see what you mean, and I did overlook the fact that you had already posted that they were kept together upon purchase, which would probibly have had something to do with it.

I am hoping to get another breeding pair and do some breeding with them, I have bred them before in the past and oh what beautiful little things they were, I would deffo like to give it another shot just to bring in the possibility of future captive breeding horned dragons.


Water Dragons are fun, they are so full of character, I have never ownerd them, but I have looked after them and bred them for a few shops I used to work in.

So I will definately be looking into getting some, I was supposed to not long back but I thought I would invest into the enclosure I have built a little bit more.
: victory:


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## G.R/Trooper (Feb 20, 2011)

Slightly offtopic but still relating to MHD's and their enclosure, i am planning a project to breed these little wonders in a very large enclosure. Within the next 4 weeks it will be built and ready to have them housed so my question is:

How many would YOU put in a 8x10x6? (HxWxD in Feet).

I have done all the usual research but havnt found anything solid on the breeding and enclosure requirements when housing multiples.

I am aiming to put in around 9 in this enclosure but also considering going upto 12. The plan is to have:

1 Male Armata
1 Male Capra
2 Female Armata
2 Female Capra
3 Female Lepidogaster.

I may consider adding a Male Lepidogaster providing i can keep them happy.

Those that know me will know my love for arboreal's and MHD's are something that have certainly caught my eye. The enclosure will be heavily decorated with vines, a stream, a waterfall, plenty of tree's and also both a deep and shallow bathing pool.

This is almost exactly how i will be setting it up.
Waterfall In The Rainforest, Cambodia Royalty Free Stock Photo, Pictures, Images And Stock Photography. Image 8105945.


I have also read ventilation is a large problem for these animals, and therefore built myself a tidy, simple, cost effective strategy to counter this, made up of computer fans, an old access relay panel, and timers, which will allow me to clean out the air on a regular basis.

Initially i was going to build this for some CWD's but to be fair, i have four of them already and fear they are currently being overbred in the UK market. I would like to give MHD's the chance to enter the UK reptile market without them being WC, which is something i am not willing to support. 

So i kinda forgot the question and went offtrack, but hey thats me all over! Your thoughts please.

This is another possibility for the enclosure layout / design etc.
http://www.123rf.com/photo_8866839_kuang-si-waterfall-luang-prabang-laos.html


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

G.R/Trooper said:


> Slightly offtopic but still relating to MHD's and their enclosure, i am planning a project to breed these little wonders in a very large enclosure. Within the next 4 weeks it will be built and ready to have them housed so my question is:
> 
> How many would YOU put in a 8x10x6? (HxWxD in Feet).
> 
> ...


 
whoah dude lmao.
I am away at the minute doing alot of rescue work mainly with iguanas but I will reply when I get back because we need to be off at the mo.

good questions though


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