# Adders and DWA



## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

Old dear has a population of adders that frequent the back garden and the feilds beyond would i be breaching DWA if i was to erm provide them with an extternal place that was more attractive than where they currently hide away i.e basking spots hides etc and maybe fed them occasionally with frozen thawed with long tongs would this be a breach or me just showing an interest no different to feeding ducks or squirrells ?


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Oh dear this is a really bad post!

It took me four reads to understand what you are asking!

If I got it right you are asking if it is legal to attract adders onto a property?

There is nothing illegal in doing so though the safety of the public may come into question.

You are extremely unlikely to be able to feed wild adders and they are best left alone.

Sorry if this upsets you but.......


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

nah ive managed to feed adders with tongs from fresh kills i.e laid a mouse trap in the shed got a mouse out of the trap bumped it on head then offered it to an female when i was living in St Agnes in cornwall up on the cliffs theres loads of them. What im concerned about it i dont wanna bring them indoors and get DWA im not into having an adder in a tank/viv i can brag about to all my mates. I like idea of having them in the back garden / field though but didnt know if what i would be doing would be illegal or in breach or not


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Its my opinion but I would say more trouble than its worth, like slippery said public safety would come in to question, what if some one was visiting and had to go outside and got bitten or workmen then you would have a whole mess if it was revealed you attracted them on perpose.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

Jaggers said:


> Its my opinion but I would say more trouble than its worth, like slippery said public safety would come in to question, what if some one was visiting and had to go outside and got bitten or workmen then you would have a whole mess if it was revealed you attracted them on perpose.


They need to prove i intentionally attracted them and id happily put a sign up if it ment id have a safe haven for these lil fellas. One of the lucky things with cornwall is adders are rediculously plentifull


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

mikeyb said:


> They need to prove i intentionally attracted them and id happily put a sign up if it ment id have a safe haven for these lil fellas. One of the lucky things with cornwall is adders are rediculously plentifull


I would contact some one like the foresty commission to find out about it to make sure, still a bad idea if you ask me though.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

mikeyb said:


> They need to prove i intentionally attracted them and id happily put a sign up if it ment id have a safe haven for these lil fellas. One of the lucky things with cornwall is adders are rediculously plentifull


Warning signs are best avoided as they attract halfwits!

I very much doubt they are in your word plentiful, nationally the species is in serious decline, absent and at risk in many counties although some areas they are doing ok.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

If you are lucky enough to have them in your back garden. just leave them to it. maybe make some log piles, corrugated iron and things strewn about. you can make life easier for them.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

this is basically wat i was thinking and also providing them with food if i can


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## boabloketony (Jan 22, 2007)

mikeyb said:


> They need to prove i intentionally attracted them


I imagine that writing about it on a public forum would constitute proof


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

mikeyb said:


> Old dear has a population of adders that frequent the back garden and the feilds beyond would i be breaching DWA if i was to erm provide them with an extternal place that was more attractive than where they currently hide away i.e basking spots hides etc and maybe fed them occasionally with frozen thawed with long tongs would this be a breach or me just showing an interest no different to feeding ducks or squirrells ?


Old people fall into the 'very high risk' category when bitten by adders. I think it would be foolish to attract dangerously venomous snakes into the garden of an 'old dear' in case she were to be bitten.

David.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

DavidR said:


> Old people fall into the 'very high risk' category when bitten by adders. I think it would be foolish to attract dangerously venomous snakes into the garden of an 'old dear' in case she were to be bitten.
> 
> David.


lol my old dear aint that old mate i just call her my old dear lmao


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## azza23 (May 4, 2011)

also if there plentifull in your garden wouldnt you have thought this is because they have enough food, water and natural hiding places, they obviously have everything they need as there are loads about, so just sit back and watch them


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

azza23 said:


> also if there plentifull in your garden wouldnt you have thought this is because they have enough food, water and natural hiding places, they obviously have everything they need as there are loads about, so just sit back and watch them


i know but its always nice to interact with a wild animal i mean people get pleasure feeding ducks etc id love to get these to take a few mice when they come out of burmation in the spring


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

mikeyb said:


> i know but its always nice to interact with a wild animal i mean people get pleasure feeding ducks etc id love to get these to take a few mice when they come out of burmation in the spring


Duck and berus are hardly the same!

I'd love to see you feeding wild berus off forceps!


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

slippery42 said:


> Duck and berus are hardly the same!
> 
> I'd love to see you feeding wild berus off forceps!


as soon as there out in the spring il get someone to video it i havent got them to take frozen thawed before but one that i rescued when it had been hit by a car when i was a kid before i knew about dwa etc lol ooooops ice cream tub in garage wasnt exactly secure but hey i was a kid and was told by vet theres no way rspca would take it they would say release it to die or destory it. thats only one i got on frozen and they had to be left in there with it but ive had success by putting traps in the shed for the mice catching them live bumping them off there and then with the adders then wiggling them on the end of the tongs (barbeque tongs lol wont be telling the old man though haha) while there still warm and fresh lol


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## ArmyBoy (Dec 9, 2011)

mikeyb said:


> as soon as there out in the spring il get someone to video it i havent got them to take frozen thawed before but one that i rescued when it had been hit by a car when i was a kid before i knew about dwa etc lol ooooops ice cream tub in garage wasnt exactly secure but hey i was a kid and was told by vet theres no way rspca would take it they would say release it to die or destory it. thats only one i got on frozen and they had to be left in there with it but ive had success by putting traps in the shed for the mice catching them live bumping them off there and then with the adders then wiggling them on the end of the tongs (barbeque tongs lol wont be telling the old man though haha) while there still warm and fresh lol


I've come to the conclusion that you're an idiot...

Listen to what everyone is telling you. If they're happy, leave them alone. Just observe them. 

Getting an injured V. berus and a healthy V. berus to feed is completely different...


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

ArmyBoy said:


> I've come to the conclusion that you're an idiot...
> 
> Listen to what everyone is telling you. If they're happy, leave them alone. Just observe them.
> 
> Getting an injured V. berus and a healthy V. berus to feed is completely different...


 A dreamer comes to mind


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## ArmyBoy (Dec 9, 2011)

slippery42 said:


> A dreamer comes to mind


There are so many of them these days.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

ArmyBoy said:


> I've come to the conclusion that you're an idiot...
> 
> Listen to what everyone is telling you. If they're happy, leave them alone. Just observe them.
> 
> Getting an injured V. berus and a healthy V. berus to feed is completely different...


and ive come to the conclusion your a massive :censor: if u dont like my posts dont :censor:read them people feed birds,badgers all range of wildlife im lucky enough to have a wild population of adders on my land then im entitled to interact with them in which ever way i choose i came on here for advice not the opinion of and utter toolbag. Your comment is completely hipocritical i choose not to get a dwa and keep these animals in a viv in my home how many venomous keepers own wild caught animals in there own home .... i dont see they were left alone. So im interacting with them on there terms they can quite easily slither away but so far they seem more interested in me if i sit still and dont show any signs of aggression towards them so i feel confident they would take food and il be happy to post pictures when i do


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## ArmyBoy (Dec 9, 2011)

mikeyb said:


> and ive come to the conclusion your a massive :censor: if u dont like my posts dont :censor:read them people feed birds,badgers all range of wildlife im lucky enough to have a wild population of adders on my land then im entitled to interact with them in which ever way i choose i came on here for advice not the opinion of and utter toolbag. Your comment is completely hipocritical i choose not to get a dwa and keep these animals in a viv in my home how many venomous keepers own wild caught animals in there own home .... i dont see they were left alone. So im interacting with them on there terms they can quite easily slither away but so far they seem more interested in me if i sit still and dont show any signs of aggression towards them so i feel confident they would take food and il be happy to post pictures when i do


You are comparing feeding birds to feeding adders? 

If the snakes are doing quite fine on their own, why try and intervene? Leave them alone and just watch them. Put some sheet metal and logs in the garden for them to hide under. 

You won't be able to get them to feed. You will just stress them out...


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## Gabonica (Aug 26, 2009)

Feeding wild adders on captive bred mice can introduce harmful alien pathogens and microbes into their systems that do not occur naturally. This can be detrimental to the whole population and not just the individual you are feeding. Capturing and killing wild rodents and then feeding to adders can also do the same thing depending on the health of the rodent and the time it has been dead. Snakes, moreso than many wild animals can sense a sick or harmful prey item before it kills it and will leave these animals alone. Even humans do it with their food to some degree, milk is a good example. Snakes have evolved further than that.

So in short, you are risking the health of your adder population by trying this. It's not a great risk, but a risk nontheless. This risk increases dramatically by using captive bred or frozen rodents. It also inreases due to the fact that a healthy adder would be unwilling to take a dead specimen. An unhealthy or weaker specimen may do so, but again, an adder that is ill, is less able to deal with harmful or alien microbes introduced into its system. Dead rodents will also discourage live wild rodents from coming into the area, thus depriving the adders of their natural food source, which can be devastating even if left around for an hour or so. As even when removed, the scent will remain very pungent to the wild rodent population for several days if the weather is dry. So best to let the adders go about their business naturally.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

Gabonica said:


> Feeding wild adders on captive bred mice can introduce harmful alien pathogens and microbes into their systems that do not occur naturally. This can be detrimental to the whole population and not just the individual you are feeding. Capturing and killing wild rodents and then feeding to adders can also do the same thing depending on the health of the rodent and the time it has been dead. Snakes, moreso than many wild animals can sense a sick or harmful prey item before it kills it and will leave these animals alone. Even humans do it with their food to some degree, milk is a good example. Snakes have evolved further than that.
> 
> So in short, you are risking the health of your adder population by trying this. It's not a great risk, but a risk nontheless. This risk increases dramatically by using captive bred or frozen rodents. It also inreases due to the fact that a healthy adder would be unwilling to take a dead specimen. An unhealthy or weaker specimen may do so, but again, an adder that is ill, is less able to deal with harmful or alien microbes introduced into its system. Dead rodents will also discourage live wild rodents from coming into the area, thus depriving the adders of their natural food source, which can be devastating even if left around for an hour or so. As even when removed, the scent will remain very pungent to the wild rodent population for several days if the weather is dry. So best to let the adders go about their business naturally.


erm if this was the case giving addres frozen thawed and it causing issues then all our animals would be dead there bred and killed in lab conditions frozen thawed is prob cleaner than half the food we eat as humans so ur wrong there and also any rodents would be caputured live in a trap then dispatched prior to feeding and the same rodents that the snakes are feeding on in the first place there not being brought in wild from anywhere else theres loads of them around the sheds and ive found snake skins around the same sheds. These adders have come accustom to me being present around them and dont show any signs of aggression or defensiveness when im there if anything when one crawls under ur knackers when ur kneeling down it soon gives u the fright of ur life. My op was to find out if im breaching DWA by giving them more oppertunity to keep a comfortable habitat as there numbers grow


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## boabloketony (Jan 22, 2007)

mikeyb said:


> erm if this was the case giving addres frozen thawed and it causing issues then all our animals would be dead there bred and killed in lab conditions frozen thawed is prob cleaner than half the food we eat as humans so ur wrong there and also any rodents would be caputured live in a trap then dispatched prior to feeding and the same rodents that the snakes are feeding on in the first place there not being brought in wild from anywhere else theres loads of them around the sheds and ive found snake skins around the same sheds. These adders have come accustom to me being present around them and dont show any signs of aggression or defensiveness when im there if anything when one crawls under ur knackers when ur kneeling down it soon gives u the fright of ur life. My op was to find out if im breaching DWA by giving them more oppertunity to keep a comfortable habitat as there numbers grow


Wow, that was difficult to read. 2 full stops in 168 words :whip:


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## ArmyBoy (Dec 9, 2011)

mikeyb said:


> erm if this was the case giving addres frozen thawed and it causing issues then all our animals would be dead there bred and killed in lab conditions frozen thawed is prob cleaner than half the food we eat as humans so ur wrong there and also any rodents would be caputured live in a trap then dispatched prior to feeding and the same rodents that the snakes are feeding on in the first place there not being brought in wild from anywhere else theres loads of them around the sheds and ive found snake skins around the same sheds. These adders have come accustom to me being present around them and dont show any signs of aggression or defensiveness when im there if anything when one crawls under ur knackers when ur kneeling down it soon gives u the fright of ur life. My op was to find out if im breaching DWA by giving them more oppertunity to keep a comfortable habitat as there numbers grow


No, the adders are not comfortable with you. If you carry on thinking that they are comfortable with you, you will get bitten. Simple as that.


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## Gabonica (Aug 26, 2009)

mikeyb said:


> erm if this was the case giving addres frozen thawed and it causing issues then all our animals would be dead there bred and killed in lab conditions frozen thawed is prob cleaner than half the food we eat as humans so ur wrong there and also any rodents would be caputured live in a trap then dispatched prior to feeding and the same rodents that the snakes are feeding on in the first place there not being brought in wild from anywhere else theres loads of them around the sheds and ive found snake skins around the same sheds. These adders have come accustom to me being present around them and dont show any signs of aggression or defensiveness when im there if anything when one crawls under ur knackers when ur kneeling down it soon gives u the fright of ur life. My op was to find out if im breaching DWA by giving them more oppertunity to keep a comfortable habitat as there numbers grow


I'm sorry to say this, but that post really highlights your ignorance of basic biology, bacteria, pathogens and other microbes present in artificially reared foodstocks, or actually, any foodstocks or animal, living or dead. Try Googling Pasteur, and you'll begin to understand why most foodstocks are treated with chemicals, and why it is important to cook food thoroughly, defrost them, and how cells change irreversably once frozen. And also how freezing actualy encourages harmful bacterial growth. As a reptile keeper you should also be aware of the high mortality rate from disease in captive animals compared to wild animals. Would you feed you own captive bred snakes wild caught rats and mice? Of course you wouldn't, that would be exceptionally stupid and your snakes would not last long. And that is the same reason we don't feed wild snakes captive bred mice.

You also miss the point that leaving dead rodents in any area, even for a short period, will temporarily render that area devoid of live ones, as they avoid the body due to survival instinct. That effectively changes that environment temporarily and reduces the chances of any adder naturally feeding during that time. If you can't see what impact that will make, or even care, then you are in the wrong hobby.

You should also think very carefully about conditioning wild adders to become unafraid of invaders like humans into their environment. Can't you see that doing that will make them less timid and therefore prone to predation from mammals and especially birds, as they start to ignore shadows. I'm utterly amazed that you would think that this is OK, and it enforces the opinions of the people about your lack of concern for their welfare, and that you are using their presence for your own amusement.

There is one flaw in the argument though. You say they are used to you. They don't know you from any other large predator in their environment. They just see blurred movement, a large shape and shadows, coupled with a strange scent. And I think that your statement will confirm what many people are thinking about you and your intentions in a largely negative way.

I wouldn't worry about a DWA as they are not your snakes or your captive pets. You should worry more about their welfare, which at the moment seems to be taking a secondary priority. They are wild animals, and even though on your property, are still protected by law to a certain degree. Your actions will certainly diminish teh populations chances of survival, and despite being told this by people, you still ignore it and decide to carry on. That is irresponsible and against everything someone who professes to love the creatures stands for.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

1. im hardly going to leave a dead rodent lying about the cat kills enough of them and leaves them lying about and ive never once noticed any reduction in them being caught in the traps.
2. The population of adders has actually increased since ive been interacting with them giving them new hiding spaces and places to live bare young (every year im noticing more and more babies)
3. ive been handling adders since i was 16 i would of thought id ive been bitten by now. if u respect them and dont show any sudden movement then they will actually come up and smell ur hand then move off on there own (ive noticed before everything is on there terms i doing go oiking them out with hooks and stuff ive actually got a pic of a baby coiled up in my hand warming itself off of me although my first thought was right how the hell am i gonna get this off again) 
4. I posted this thread as i wanted to know if i was breaching DWA in anyway. Yh maybe il avoid the frozen thawed but to my reconing any wild rodent there feeding on now is going to be far more full of parasites and pathogens than any lab bred animal.
5. punctuations shit as im on an ipad i appologise for that
Thing that annoys me is i wanna provide them with the best possible habitat going these are kept wild. Unlike everything else in our hobby that lives in a 4x2x2 box 90% of its life. No one else gets near them (although they have been known to turn up in the house) so im talking general public. To me this is no different to someone keeping an avairy of bird outside which is the same enviroment im trying to provide for them. 
And im pretty sure they know who i am by know though my scent last year i left an old coat i use for fishing (so it dont get washed too often )in the garden and in the morning they were under there rather than there usual spots surely that show u my scent isnt of any kind of threat to them


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## ArmyBoy (Dec 9, 2011)

mikeyb said:


> 1. im hardly going to leave a dead rodent lying about the cat kills enough of them and leaves them lying about and ive never once noticed any reduction in them being caught in the traps.
> 2. The population of adders has actually increased since ive been interacting with them giving them new hiding spaces and places to live bare young (every year im noticing more and more babies)
> 3. ive been handling adders since i was 16 i would of thought id ive been bitten by now. if u respect them and dont show any sudden movement then they will actually come up and smell ur hand then move off on there own (ive noticed before everything is on there terms i doing go oiking them out with hooks and stuff ive actually got a pic of a baby coiled up in my hand warming itself off of me although my first thought was right how the hell am i gonna get this off again)
> 4. I posted this thread as i wanted to know if i was breaching DWA in anyway. Yh maybe il avoid the frozen thawed but to my reconing any wild rodent there feeding on now is going to be far more full of parasites and pathogens than any lab bred animal.
> ...


You :censor: idiot. Why would you free handle a venomous species of snake? There is just no need. If you were to get bitten, it would be all over the news. This will just cause more people to go out and kill these awesome creatures. 

Are you dumb? Read what Gabonica posted again, because you seem to be missing the point about everything. 

You aren't helping these snakes. STOP interacting with them. Anyone who actually cares about these snakes will leave them alone. 

No, they won't distinguish you from any other large animal. If you are messing around with them thinking that they are used to you, you will get bitten. 

People like you should be banned from the reptile community.


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## TheDeadDodo (Nov 5, 2010)

Mate read what everyone is telling you and stop ignoring what you don't want to hear like a 13year old hormonal teenager!
Also take into consideration adders are also listed as a "priority species" which generally means leave them the :censor: alone and don't disturb them!


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## Podarcis (Mar 1, 2010)

This is unbelievable. It trumps your ridiculous ideas about Grass snake breeding. These animals do not need you to be offering them food if they have suitable habitat. Your actions are for your benefit, not the snakes'. If you want to do some good for adders, get out and join an ARG and help with the habitat management.

In answer to your points;
1: So you say but . . .
2: How on Earth do you know? Reptile surveying is extremely tricky to do properly. Where are your figures? (and, please, don't say "iv seen loads more lol" or something.
3:Beyond stupid if true for so many reasons. If false, well . . .
4:Shows your ignorance of the DWA process, and, indeed laws relating to native wildlife. Why post when you could research?
5:Then sort it out.

*YES! Get out there on organised meetings and improve wild herp habitat! *

They will not "recognise your scent" from one old coat left out all winter.

In common with your thread about Grass snake captive breeding-releasing, you are not listening to what very knowledgeable people are saying to you. If you're not going to, then don't bother posting.

You are becoming the next Viperlover.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

mikeyb said:


> 1. im hardly going to leave a dead rodent lying about the cat kills enough of them and leaves them lying about and ive never once noticed any reduction in them being caught in the traps.
> 2. The population of adders has actually increased since ive been interacting with them giving them new hiding spaces and places to live bare young (every year im noticing more and more babies)
> 3. ive been handling adders since i was 16 i would of thought id ive been bitten by now. if u respect them and dont show any sudden movement then they will actually come up and smell ur hand then move off on there own (ive noticed before everything is on there terms i doing go oiking them out with hooks and stuff ive actually got a pic of a baby coiled up in my hand warming itself off of me although my first thought was right how the hell am i gonna get this off again)
> 4. I posted this thread as i wanted to know if i was breaching DWA in anyway. Yh maybe il avoid the frozen thawed but to my reconing any wild rodent there feeding on now is going to be far more full of parasites and pathogens than any lab bred animal.
> ...


If I were you I would give up and drop this idiotic post. You clearly have no idea about Adders and basic ecology.


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## Gabonica (Aug 26, 2009)

mikeyb said:


> 1. im hardly going to leave a dead rodent lying about the cat kills enough of them and leaves them lying about and ive never once noticed any reduction in them being caught in the traps.


Obviously you are more of an expert on this than the thousands of scientists that have proven quite the opposite. You can't deny something that is a proven scientific fact.




mikeyb said:


> 2. The population of adders has actually increased since ive been interacting with them giving them new hiding spaces and places to live bare young (every year im noticing more and more babies)


Populations of adders do not increase so dramatically in such a short period of time. That is a nonsense statement, and if actually true, probably shows that you are driving them from their usual positions into more exposed places by attempting to interact with them. This whole statement really does point to a lack of knowledge of the species.



mikeyb said:


> 3. ive been handling adders since i was 16 i would of thought id ive been bitten by now. if u respect them and dont show any sudden movement then they will actually come up and smell ur hand then move off on there own (ive noticed before everything is on there terms i doing go oiking them out with hooks and stuff ive actually got a pic of a baby coiled up in my hand warming itself off of me although my first thought was right how the hell am i gonna get this off again)


Adders are unpredictable. The first time I was bitten was 1985 and I was being a cocky youngster doing exactly that. The snake was just sitting in my palm quite comfortably and I wasn't moving. It displayed no defensive posture, or even timidness, it just slowly struck my thumb for no reason other than the fact it didn't want to be there. Again, you are displaying a lack of knowledge of your subject, and that is dangerous. You do that with any snake, of any species and eventually you will get bitten. Thirty three years on and I never take anything for granted just because I've been doing it for any period of time.



mikeyb said:


> 4. I posted this thread as i wanted to know if i was breaching DWA in anyway. Yh maybe il avoid the frozen thawed but to my reconing any wild rodent there feeding on now is going to be far more full of parasites and pathogens than any lab bred animal.


Adders have an immune system conditioned to deal with naturally occurring parasites within their prey. However, their senses are so acute, they will not kill a prey item they sense as having a disease that may be unsafe to them. You don't have that skill to differentiate.



mikeyb said:


> And im pretty sure they know who i am by know though my scent last year i left an old coat i use for fishing (so it dont get washed too often )in the garden and in the morning they were under there rather than there usual spots surely that show u my scent isnt of any kind of threat to them


Utterly ridiculous statement that puts a huge full stop at the end of the evidence within your posts that confirms that not only do you have no knowledge about wild animals, but snakes in general.

You cannot anthropomorphise snakes. They do not show affection or recognise you. They don't want to cuddle up to you because they like you and recognise your scent. To them you are a big shadowy threat in their environment, and with constant contact you will be forcing them to move on. You will also be stopping them from going about their natural day to day business like hunting, basking and even mating.

Take a deep look at your posts and the replies given to you. They are honest and most given with the best intentions for you to preserve the adders on your property. To continue to ignore the advice from people who have posted, which of the few I recognise, have at least 100 combined years of experience with adder ecology, shows glaringly that you are very new to teh hobby and have not really observed adders in the wild to any great extent other than to 'play' with them. I'd strongly suggest you try and learn about them in greater depth before you interfer any more with that population. Otherwise you will lose it for good, very soon.


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

Looks like you have one of the mosty sought after gardens on the forum. Don't ruin that by messing with the adders. 

If they're already doing well (as you stated), then why bother feeding them, setting up hides, and leaving dirty coats laying around? If theyre already there, then they obviously don't need your help.


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## johnc79 (Feb 29, 2008)

mikeyb said:


> 1. im hardly going to leave a dead rodent lying about the cat kills enough of them and leaves them lying about and ive never once noticed any reduction in them being caught in the traps.
> 2. The population of adders has actually increased since ive been interacting with them giving them new hiding spaces and places to live bare young (every year im noticing more and more babies)
> 3. ive been handling adders since i was 16 i would of thought id ive been bitten by now. if u respect them and dont show any sudden movement then they will actually come up and smell ur hand then move off on there own (ive noticed before everything is on there terms i doing go oiking them out with hooks and stuff ive actually got a pic of a baby coiled up in my hand warming itself off of me although my first thought was right how the hell am i gonna get this off again)
> 4. I posted this thread as i wanted to know if i was breaching DWA in anyway. Yh maybe il avoid the frozen thawed but to my reconing any wild rodent there feeding on now is going to be far more full of parasites and pathogens than any lab bred animal.
> ...


This surely must be a wind up ?lol any one who knows anything about snakes would know all this to be made up . I think he is just winding you all up for a reaction, surely??


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## I am a scarecrow (Nov 18, 2009)

johnc79 said:


> This surely must be a wind up ?lol any one who knows anything about snakes would know all this to be made up . I think he is just winding you all up for a reaction, surely??


 
Unfortunately, I don't think that's actually the case......


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## johnc79 (Feb 29, 2008)

Podarcis said:


> This is unbelievable. It trumps your ridiculous ideas about Grass snake breeding. These animals do not need you to be offering them food if they have suitable habitat. Your actions are for your benefit, not the snakes'. If you want to do some good for adders, get out and join an ARG and help with the habitat management.
> 
> In answer to your points;
> 1: So you say but . . .
> ...


 Arh yeah it's the same person from the grass snake breeding thread. I guess he is serious then. Dave I hope he is a one off or are herps are in even more trouble.

Listen mikey, everyone is right. If you don't believe us educate yourself on adders. Do some research ect and you will find out what all these people are saying is correct.


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## johnc79 (Feb 29, 2008)

I am a scarecrow said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think that's actually the case......


Yeah I think your right now . Wish full thinking I guess .


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## Gabonica (Aug 26, 2009)

johnc79 said:


> Yeah I think your right now . Wish full thinking I guess .


I'm not wholly worried here. The posts by mikeyb so far represent no knowledge whatsover about berus, or even a basic observational experience. Something that would surely be in abundance if a reptile enthusiast had adders on their property.


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

Mikeyb. Please don't stop posting on here. Bloody hilarious!
Try to draw Viperlover into a conversation. You would make a brilliant double act!

To all the gullible on here, he is winding you up! Look at his avatar. He doesn't have a garden. He lives on a first floor flat!
Bloody brilliant!!


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## Podarcis (Mar 1, 2010)

Southwest Vipers, I hope so. Unfortunately, too many of us have first hand experience of stupid members of the public doing or saying stupid things with snakes, which you would hope were leg-pulls but aren't. His assinine comments are no less believable than many I've heard.


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## Uromastyxman (Jan 28, 2009)

This is funny, I don't often laugh out loud:lol2:


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

mikeyb said:


> erm if this was the case giving addres frozen thawed and it causing issues then all our animals would be dead there bred and killed in lab conditions frozen thawed is prob cleaner than half the food we eat as humans so ur wrong there and also any rodents would be caputured live in a trap then dispatched prior to feeding and the same rodents that the snakes are feeding on in the first place there not being brought in wild from anywhere else theres loads of them around the sheds and ive found snake skins around the same sheds. These adders have come accustom to me being present around them and dont show any signs of aggression or defensiveness when im there if anything when one crawls under ur knackers when ur kneeling down it soon gives u the fright of ur life. My op was to find out if im breaching DWA by giving them more oppertunity to keep a comfortable habitat as there numbers grow


 
Do you know what mate as first i thought you wern't as bad as people where making out but now after ignoring that advice, i can see that you are a complete and utter tool. how mnay people need to tell you not to? you obviousley dont care as much as you makeout about british herps or u'd realise pretty quickly from asking this question what the best thing to do is. vipera berus is by far my favourite animal and has been all my life, i do an awful lot to help to conserve them and their habitat and tbh it upsets and angers me reading posts like this. you can expect it from a little kid or an idiot but som,ebody who quite clearly knows about snakes and how bad an effect that could have on their population, selfish comes to mind.

your willing to risk an entire population for what you see as a little fun?

il probly get blocked for this but it needs saying


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

couldn't of said this better myself lmao!



Podarcis said:


> This is unbelievable. It trumps your ridiculous ideas about Grass snake breeding. These animals do not need you to be offering them food if they have suitable habitat. Your actions are for your benefit, not the snakes'. If you want to do some good for adders, get out and join an ARG and help with the habitat management.
> 
> In answer to your points;
> 1: So you say but . . .
> ...


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## PESKY (May 25, 2010)

southwest vipers said:


> Mikeyb. Please don't stop posting on here. Bloody hilarious!
> Try to draw Viperlover into a conversation. You would make a brilliant double act!
> 
> To all the gullible on here, he is winding you up! Look at his avatar. He doesn't have a garden. *He lives on a first floor flat!*
> Bloody brilliant!!


i dont care if he lives inside a dog, its his 'old dears' house


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

PESKY said:


> i dont care if he lives inside a dog, its his 'old dears' house


Don't be taken in. Do you really believe he is "tripping over" adders in his mums garden. Feeding them on mice from traps. Read his threads on the other forums first, and then form an opinion.


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## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

southwest vipers said:


> Don't be taken in. Do you really believe he is "tripping over" adders in his mums garden. Feeding them on mice from traps. Read his threads on the other forums first, and then form an opinion.


Its viper lover the second!!!!!

If this is indeed true witch so fare ive seen zero to prove id love to go and see it as the sites i know are all in population decline big time..


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

southwest vipers said:


> Don't be taken in. Do you really believe he is "tripping over" adders in his mums garden. Feeding them on mice from traps. Read his threads on the other forums first, and then form an opinion.


that might help if i was actually on any other forums u bell end at the end of the day there on our land and i will continue interacting with them you dont see anyone complaining about there foreign hots which are kept captive these by far have a higher quality of life and i cant personally see this being any different to feeding foxes,badgers,birds of prey etc i understand the issues with feeding them wild caught prey that might not be healthy but im lost on exaclty what the issue feeding them on lab bred mice every one else feeds there captive snakes surely this is less risk to them else all our snakes would be dying left right and centre


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

mikeyb said:


> that might help if i was actually on any other forums u bell end at the end of the day there on our land and i will continue interacting with them you dont see anyone complaining about there foreign hots which are kept captive these by far have a higher quality of life and i cant personally see this being any different to feeding foxes,badgers,birds of prey etc i understand the issues with feeding them wild caught prey that might not be healthy but im lost on exaclty what the issue feeding them on lab bred mice every one else feeds there captive snakes surely this is less risk to them else all our snakes would be dying left right and centre


There's no need to be insulting mikeyb. You have made a number of comments in the " snakes" forum on this website.


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## McToons (May 7, 2011)

mikeyb said:


> that might help if i was actually on any other forums u bell end at the end of the day there on our land and i will continue interacting with them you dont see anyone complaining about there foreign hots which are kept captive these by far have a higher quality of life and i cant personally see this being any different to feeding foxes,badgers,birds of prey etc i understand the issues with feeding them wild caught prey that might not be healthy but im lost on exaclty what the issue feeding them on lab bred mice every one else feeds there captive snakes surely this is less risk to them else all our snakes would be dying left right and centre


By other forums I'm guessing he means other sub forums of RFUK, isn't hard to work that bit out.

As for the lab mouse v wild mouse. I can't understand how you don't get it. It's actually very simple. Wild Adder eating wild mice, since hatching, much like most other animals, builds up an immune system to whatever pathogens the wild mice it encounters happens to be harbouring. Lab/bred mice STILL contain certain pathogens as I understand it, a completely different set of pathogens though. These pathogens that our own captive bred snakes have been building up an immunity to since hatching. The issue is trying to feed lab/bred mice complete with those pathogens to a wild adder that HASN'T built up such an immunity.

I could be completely wrong admittedly but that's how I understand the dangers of mixing it up in the sense it's being suggested.


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## azza23 (May 4, 2011)

Why is everyone letting mickeyb wind them up, he clearly dosnt listen or care what anyone thinks or british wildlife for that matter, so just dont let him get your backs up, hopefully an adder will bite him whilst he's messing with them and he has a bad reaction now that would be funny, :lol2:


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## Gabonica (Aug 26, 2009)

McToons said:


> By other forums I'm guessing he means other sub forums of RFUK, isn't hard to work that bit out.
> 
> As for the lab mouse v wild mouse. I can't understand how you don't get it. It's actually very simple. Wild Adder eating wild mice, since hatching, much like most other animals, builds up an immune system to whatever pathogens the wild mice it encounters happens to be harbouring. Lab/bred mice STILL contain certain pathogens as I understand it, a completely different set of pathogens though. These pathogens that our own captive bred snakes have been building up an immunity to since hatching. The issue is trying to feed lab/bred mice complete with those pathogens to a wild adder that HASN'T built up such an immunity.
> 
> I could be completely wrong admittedly but that's how I understand the dangers of mixing it up in the sense it's being suggested.


That's pretty much spot on. But obviously mikeyb knows more than people who have worked with snakes for years, because he saw an adder once. It's hilarious that he thinks we believe he hand feeds adders and they cuddle up to his scent at night. I think he has been watching too many Harry Potter films and can't seperate a fantasy/dream state from reality. He is becoming famous though, as this thread has become one of those infamous 'mall ninja' threads and it is entertaining herpers all around the world :no1: That's how I came across it.


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## George_Millett (Feb 26, 2009)

I have been a lurker/poster on this and other reptile forums for a couple of years. I Still have no practical experience of reptile keeping. Yet despite this impediment none of the DWA keepers that I have interacted with have been anything but patient and polite with me answering some of my incredibly foolish questions.

I sincerely hope you don't interact with these adders that you have found as I beleive that is illegal due to there protected status. Even if it is not the hobby has a bad enough reputation amoungst the public at large we don't need any headlines to the effect of 'Idiot dead due to bothering venemous snakes'.

The last thing is I hope you have no plans on joining the ranks of DWAL keepers in the future as within the past week you have succeeded in Alienating most of the established keepers on this forum. And they are the people you will need on your side as they would have been your best chance of getting any pratical experience handling Venemous reptiles safely. You may still be able to get them to help you but it is now going to be an uphill struggle as first impressions stick for a long time.


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## Gabonica (Aug 26, 2009)

These are not opinions but FACT, pure and simple. We know how adders react around humans, some of us have been studying the species for decades. You obviously have no regard for the adder population other than as a personal plaything. We don't want to see your juvenile experiments. Out of all the input here not a single person agrees with you or your intentions. You are exactly the kind of person that the herpetological world/community does not want or need as you stand for everything we are opposed to. It's obvious from your veiled posts around this forum and enquiries in other places that you desire to keep a sample of berus yourself without the proper authority. Luckily your identity is hardly anonymous so you will find yourself in deep trouble if you proceed. Cornwall is a small place and the herpetological community even smaller and well connected. Enquiries like this make ripples that turn into waves. You have been making alot of waves over the months and people are now paying attention to your possible actions. Ignore the sensible advice all you want and carry on with disregard. You are the one that will ultimately wind up in trouble, hopefully not at any snakes expense.


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