# does food feel pain?



## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I read in the paper today that studies into marine inverts PROVE that they feel pain. for example A trace amount of acid was dripped onto the antennae of a prawn and the result was that the subject rubbed that area for as long as five minutes. and though i know this study shows that boiling a crab alive or indeed dropping acid onto a prawns face is now more or less proved to cause pain.

How long before the wrong people put 2 & 2 together and get otters?

obviously being members of the invert family they are related to what many of our beloved pets consider food.

I just started my stopwatch, it'll switch off when the Shizzle starts to hit the fan.

any guesses as to how long that may be?


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## gaz (Oct 5, 2005)

what will we do when it goes further and they prove cabbages feel pain?? eat rocks??
gaz


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

i don't give a flying stuff if a lobster feels it when I cook it. Likiewise if i'm ever eaten by a lion I won't be surprised if it hurts.

the food chain is a reality, I think it's day that these days people are unable to cope with it.

Mason


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

For the record during the Animal Welfare Bill consultations certain organisations were lobbying hard that all invertebrates should be protected under the Act. They also wanted to make it illegal to feed live invertebrates to other animals! This issue is far from over and these groups will be lobbying in the future… Also tarantula keepers beware – you are high on the priority list to be regulated under the Animal Welfare Act, according to certain ‘welfare’ organisations!


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

It's ridiculous really. What do they think creatures such as tarantula's eat in the wild??? Imitation inverts?

Stupid bloody people!! :bash:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

have to say yes, this has already been a near miss.. 

speaking to friends in retail down my end of the UK.. they supply 100's of 1000s of livefood items to other traders up and down the country..

they told me last year that there had been a threat that inverts were going to classed as "pets" which would have meant you could no longer use them as feeders for your lizards.. nor could you send them in the royal mail or by standard courier anymore.

they don't actually have to ban reptile keeping you know.. all they have to do is change enough little laws.. for what the public will see is good reasons..(i.e not causing a life form pain, or housing things in adequate set ups.. remember we might think a film case is cool for a small spider.. but would the majority of the voting public? probably not..)

if they take away the ability to feed our lizards.. how could we then keep them, without being able to feed them? sure people could breed their own livefood.. but you would be still subject to classing them as pets and all that comes with it.. you could catch wild insect food.. but how many of us really have the time to do that - looking at some keepers with 20+ geckos.. imagine catching enough to feed them!

likewise.. if say they outlawed film cases for young spiders.. what would the T keepers use then?

they are not going for an outright ban.. what they are doing is neatly chipping away at the basic way we can feed and house our exotics.. once they make it hard enough.. they won't need to ban it.. 

say.. they DO go ahead and prosecute people if their snakes are not in a viv that allows them to lay fully out.. that means a 10ft boa.. would need a 10ft viv.. how many of the boa keepers on this forum actually have the space to house ALL their boas in enclosures that are as long as they are? i know i don't thats for sure! and how about corns? the standard size most people have for an adult corn is 3ft-4ft.. could every corn keeper on this forum actually say they had the money and space to change all the vivs to 5ft-6ft ones? i doubt it very much. 

we all know a 10ft boa does not NEED a 10ft viv.. but you can see how the principle could be sold to people.. and in truth yes, most 10ft boas would probably enjoy a 10ft viv, if it was set up correctly.. the princicple of giving them adequate space in captivity is a very popular one amongst the general public.. you only have to look at the ways zoos have changed over the last 50 years to see that. 

at the moment, they are slowly working on making it harder and harder to keep reptiles, and stay within the law (their law that is!) the harder they make it to conform, the more people will stop keeping.. as people stop keeping, we lose the support base.. as that happens we lose the power of numbers.. the shops make less money, the hobby becomes more insular.. it will split into those who go "underground" and those who struggle to remain above ground.. keepers and keeping groups will fragment..

add to this the fact they are trying to either ban, or at the least heavily regulate internet selling of animals.. and we all know they are trying to ban shows.. add to that the mounting support for banning pet shop sales.. and where does it leave the keeper? up the swaney without a boat, let alone a paddle..

at the moment, we are seeing a slow but worryingly steady chipping away at the foundations of private animal keeping.. they don't have to ban it outright.. given the way things are going.. come the time our children grow up, they will have suceeded in just making to too damn awkward to keep exotics for most to cope with.

N


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Many posts and discussions here have shown, with previous confirmation from animal welfare and legal institutions, that it is not currently illegal to feed live vertebrates to reptiles, as long as it is considered necessary, and is not for entertainment purposes.

As they have not even implemented a ban of feeding cute bunnies and pet rats to snakes.... I would think they would go for this victory before attempting to validate it for insects.

Then what will be next, will it be illegal to catch insects wild and kill them? Perhaps it will be illegal to pour boiling water down ant hills or destroy wasps nests if invertebrates suddenly have rights against being killed.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

Surely they couldn't legalise this? They're not just putting the pet business out of business but also pest control companies..if killing inverts becomes illegal as they're seen as pets..how the hell do u get rid of a wasp net or a cockraoch infestation if you got one?? Or would these not be classed as pets??? N if so does that not opent hte loop hole of feeding wild inverts?


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Katiexx said:


> Surely they couldn't legalise this? They're not just putting the pet business out of business but also pest control companies..if killing inverts becomes illegal as they're seen as pets..how the hell do u get rid of a wasp net or a cockraoch infestation if you got one?? Or would these not be classed as pets??? N if so does that not opent hte loop hole of feeding wild inverts?


good point, what will they class as pests and pets?


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Good grief....

How have we gone from AR groups wanting to outlaw the feeding of live invertebrates to viewing a cockroach infestation as pets ? This place never ceases to amaze me.

If you have a tarantula that you keep as a pet, they want it protected under the AWA because IT IS IN YOUR CARE !

If you have a hissing cockroach that you keep as a pet, they want it protected under the AWA because IT IS IN YOUR CARE !

If you buy crickets as food for your lizard, then they do not want this to happen since the crickets are IN YOUR CARE and therefore should be protected by the AWA.

If you have a cockroach infestation in your kitchen, or a wasp nest in your loft... then these are not in your care, you never paid for them or brought them into your house and they would be dealt with in exactly the same way as they are now. Even with mammals, I do not think that a wild rat that has found its way into your house will be given quite the same AWA protection as a pet one you bought from a shop.... do you ?


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

exactly steve!

if you had a rat in a cage.. it would be seen different to a rat in your drains..

same goes for keeping a colony of crickets in a captive controlled environment..

their arguement is, that anything you choose to keep in captivity, whether it be a cat or a cricket.. is something you have a duty to show you are keeping and treating "correctly"

if they decide to class sale of feeder insects like crickets via retail outlets as pet sales.. we are going to be in serious trouble! 

N


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

quixotic_axolotl said:


> i don't give a flying stuff if a lobster feels it when I cook it. Likiewise if i'm ever eaten by a lion I won't be surprised if it hurts.
> 
> the food chain is a reality, I think it's day that these days people are unable to cope with it.
> 
> Mason


Ooooh - puts quixotic_axolotl into a huge pot of boiling water and waits (and enjoys) the screams. :crazy:

I'm not against feeding live inverts to our animals, that's how it would come in the wild, but seriously ... how natural is it for a lobster? :whistling2:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Mmm.. i have to say i am not a veggie and i do like lobster...

and i am well used to killing my own feeder animals.. and in the coming year will be getting used to killing feeder animals for the table as well as the viv.. so to speak..

but yes... i would cringe a little if i had to drop a lobster into boiling water..

i'd rather kill it, then boil it.. than boil it alive.. 

once its dead i don't mind what happens to it. dead is dead after all.

N


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

glidergirl said:


> Ooooh - puts quixotic_axolotl into a huge pot of boiling water and waits (and enjoys) the screams. :crazy:
> 
> I'm not against feeding live inverts to our animals, that's how it would come in the wild, but seriously ... how natural is it for a lobster? :whistling2:


I said nothing about natural, just that I didn't care.

One of the wonderful things about being up here near the top of the food chain is I get to eat the things beneath us. I'm not going to eat raw lobster, and I aint spending £20-£40 on a lobster to cook that been sat dead somewhere for do knows how long (eg supermarket lobsters) So I want a live lobster and I'm not going to eat it raw.

for one all the good bits are a bit runny until you cook them and two I don't expect to have to fight my food.

this is the same be it a beardie and a locust or me and a lobster.

it's just the natural order in life, it's been the same since before man came along and still will be after we depart.

Mason


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Personally I think that all animals feel pain. Even an insect, if you touch it it moves... and if they can feel touch then it stands to reason they can feel pain. Unfortunately, pain is part of being killed and all you can do is cause the animal as least suffering as is possible and ensure that it is well looked after while it is alive.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

ratboy said:


> Personally I think that all animals feel pain. Even an insect, if you touch it it moves... and if they can feel touch then it stands to reason they can feel pain. Unfortunately, pain is part of being killed and all you can do is cause the animal as least suffering as is possible and ensure that it is well looked after while it is alive.


Exactly, it's all part of the way things are.

Lizards eat inverts. We eat inverts. At some point during that they have to die. It's not going to be nice but it is going to happen.

C'est la vie (so to speak)

Mason


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

also you don't have to put a lobster in a pot of boiling water..the most humane method of killing them is a sharp knife through the skull and then pulled down apparantly. well thats how my uncle who's a chef told met they have to do it now.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

yep, that was the way i was aware of doing it too katie..

as said.. i'm totally au fait with the idea of EATING the lobster.. and that it dies first... just that i would prefer to kill it BEFORE cooking it..

but anyway, we digress.. last time i looked no-one on this site fed their reptiles on lobster!

N


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

be some very spoilt pets out there if we did. Pretty sure my dog would chow down some lobster given half a chance, she's a greedy mare


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

and i would bet my last penny the skunks would eat it.. they eat anything!

N


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

been doing some googling..

Hot Debate: Do Lobsters Feel Pain?, New Study Concludes Brains Are Too Small To Process Pain - CBS News

A new study out of Norway concludes that it's unlikely lobsters feel pain, stirring up a long-simmering debate over whether the valuable seafood suffers when it's being cooked. 

Animal activists for years have claimed that lobsters feel excruciating agony when they are cooked, and that dropping one in a pot of boiling water is tantamount to torture. 

The study, which was funded by the Norwegian government and written by a scientist at the University of Oslo, suggests that lobsters and other invertebrates probably don't suffer even if lobsters do tend to thrash in boiling water. 

"Lobsters and crabs have some capacity of learning, but it is unlikely that they can feel pain," the study concluded. 

The 39-page report was aimed at determining if invertebrates should be subject to animal welfare legislation as Norway revises its animal welfare law. The report looked at invertebrate groups such as insects, crustaceans, worms and mollusks and summarized the scientific literature dealing with feelings and pain among those creatures without backbones. 

It concluded that most invertebrates — including lobsters, crabs, worms, snails, slugs and clams — probably don't have the capacity to feel pain. 

Lobster biologists in Maine have maintained for years that the lobster's primitive nervous system and underdeveloped brain are similar to that of an insect. While lobsters react to different stimuli, such as boiling water, the reactions are escape mechanisms, not a conscious response or an indication of pain, they say. 

The Norwegian report backs up a study in the early 1990s at the University of Maine and reinforces what people in the lobster industry have always contended, said Bob Bayer, executive director of the Lobster Institute, a research and education organization in Orono. 

"We've maintained all along that the lobster doesn't have the ability to process pain," Bayer said. 

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, an animal rights organization based in Norfolk, Va., has made lobster pain part of its Fish Empathy Project, putting out stickers and pamphlets with slogans like, "Being Boiled Hurts. Let Lobsters Live." 

PETA regularly demonstrates at the Maine Lobster Festival in Rockland, and 10 years ago placed a full-page ad in a Rockland newspaper featuring an open letter from actress Mary Tyler Moore urging festival-goers to forego lobster. 

"If we had to drop live pigs or chickens into scalding water, chances are that few of us would eat them. Why should it be any different for lobsters?" the ad read. 

PETA's Karin Robertson called the Norwegian study biased, saying the government doesn't want to hurt the country's fishing industry. 

"This is exactly like the tobacco industry claiming that smoking doesn't cause cancer," she said. 

Robertson said many scientists believe lobsters do indeed feel pain. For instance, a zoologist with The Humane Society of the United States made a written declaration that lobsters can feel pain after a chef dismembered and sauteed a live lobster to prepare a Lobster Fra Diavolo dish on NBC's "Today" show in 1994. 

But Mike Loughlin, who studied the boiling of lobsters when he was a University of Maine graduate student, said lobsters simply lack the brain capacity to feel pain. 

"It's a semantic thing: No brain, no pain," said Loughlin, who now works as a biologist at the Maine Atlantic Salmon Commission. 

It's debatable whether the debate will ever be resolved. 

The Norwegian study, even while saying it's unlikely that crustaceans feel pain, also cautioned that more research is needed because there is a scarcity of scientific knowledge on the subject. 

Whether lobsters feel pain or not, many consumers will always hesitate at placing lobsters in boiling pots of water. 

New Englanders may feel comfortable cooking their lobsters, but people outside the region often feel uneasy about boiling a live creature, said Kristen Millar, executive director of the Maine Lobster Promotion Council. "Consumers don't generally greet and meet an animal before they eat it," she said.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

and some more google links

do insects feel pain - Google Search


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## Kylie (Mar 12, 2006)

I think any breathing thing must feel pain so yes is my answer you cant say they dont cos not everything can express pain! its like if a tree falls with no one around does it make a sound of course it bloody does it would if you where there!


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

ZIPPY&VESPA said:


> I think any breathing thing must feel pain so yes is my answer you cant say they dont cos not everything can express pain! *its like if a tree falls with no one around does it make a sound of course it bloody does it would if you where there*!


 
But how do you know!?!? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Kylie (Mar 12, 2006)

Crownan said:


> But how do you know!?!? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
cos a tree has no brain so it doesnt decide "you no what there is no one here so i am gonna do this one quietly"


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

ZIPPY&VESPA said:


> cos a tree has no brain so it doesnt decide "you no what there is no one here so i am gonna do this one quietly"


Erm....interesting argument :crazy:

So....plants live and breathe.....do we have to stop killing them too? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

becasue sound is actually a vibration of matter - a series of compression waves through the surrounding medium.... then if a tree falls in a forest, then the other trees "hear" it, so yes, there is a sound.. in fact not only the trees "hear" it, but so does anything else around.

sound can in fact be "heard" in both fluid and solid mediums, as well as in air.

all cells have fluid in them... fluid as we all know, reacts to sound waves, 

in fact, sound travals faster in fluid than it does in air.. as the molecules are more tightly packed in a fluid..

sound also travels faster through some solids, again due to the molecule density...

in fact the only place sound does not travel is within a vaccum - such as outer space..

so scientifically, its a fact that if a tree falls in a forest when there is noone to hear it.. it does still make a noise.. as there is always somthing to hear it.. sound as we understand it, is not heard, as wer are not there, but sound, as a desciption of a sensation, has most definitley occured..

however, if you want to get philosophical about things.. you can argue that something cannot exist unless it is percieved. if no-one knows the tree exists.. is it really there at all?

N


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## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

can see it really effecting arachnid keeping big style 
plastic boxes and tubs will be thing of past...shame as they are really easy to use and stack nicely and preventing feeder animals is very inappropiate...im sure starvation or not meeting an animals captive needs is a criminal offence in the books of these so called groups..


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Crownan said:


> Erm....interesting argument :crazy:
> 
> So....plants live and breathe.....do we have to stop killing them too? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


interestingly Jon.. there have been studies carried out on plants at a cellular level... which do seem to indicate that plants actually react to other things being killed nearby..

i'll have to see if i can find the paper it was in..

went along the lines of.. rodents being culled.. and they were meauring the electical current in the plant cells.. or something in the plant cells.. and basically at the point of death of the rodent.. the measurements showed a corresponding spike on the graphs..

interesting stuff tbh... lets face it.most humans are far too arrogant to entertain the idea that we don't yet know how all living systems react to outside influences from other living systems

N


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Haha thanks Nerys, really needed that explaination :Na_Na_Na_Na::rotfl:

I dont believe that everything feels pain in the way we do. Yeah there maybe a a chemical reaction, and maybe a process but as to whether this can truely be regarded as pain in the human sense of the word I am not convinced. I think it to be a reactive thing rather than a 'feeling' in invertebrates.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Nerys said:


> interestingly Jon.. there have been studies carried out on plants at a cellular level... which do seem to indicate that plants actually react to other things being killed nearby..
> 
> i'll have to see if i can find the paper it was in..
> 
> ...


I totally can believe that plants would process 'pain' in some way, as they know when they must heal/regenerate. But on what level, who knows?


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Doesnt affect me.
I only eat animals once they have started to smell and fruit and veg that has fallen from the tree and no longer screams when i prod it.


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

and that yes, is part of the problem

the anti brigade.. and some of the for brigade.. are far too fond of imposing human empathy on animals

how many times do we see "my snake is lonely i want to get it a friend"

no.. your snake is NOT lonely, its a flipping SNAKE.. they don't have the higher brain capability of processing a feeling called "lonely"

likewise.. "happy" "sad" "angry" 

they are all HUMAN emotions..

pain.. is sometimes classified as a response to a stimulus..

you touch something hot.. your nerves signel heat to your brain and you respond by moving away.. and i do believe most life forms "feel" pain in that respect.. if pain can be said to be a response to a threatening situation as such. then yes.. things like crickets will move away from too hot a surface.. mealworms will try and crawl out of water puddles.. etc etc.. whether that translates to our perception of pain.. i doubt very much..

for instance.. if i pulled the leg of a man.. he would be in so much pain he would not be able to walk.. do that to a locust and it makes no difference at all to what they are doing..

N


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## Amber (Jun 11, 2006)

I have no doubt that they are able to feel something, but I don't think it is pain as we perceive it.

Just because they feel a certain sensation, doesn't mean they suffer because of it.


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## Kylie (Mar 12, 2006)

Crownan said:


> Erm....interesting argument :crazy:
> 
> So....plants live and breathe.....do we have to stop killing them too? :Na_Na_Na_Na:


No there is a food chain we are at the top just kill them quickly!!:lol2:




Nerys said:


> becasue sound is actually a vibration of matter - a series of compression waves through the surrounding medium.... then if a tree falls in a forest, then the other trees "hear" it, so yes, there is a sound.. in fact not only the trees "hear" it, but so does anything else around.
> 
> sound can in fact be "heard" in both fluid and solid mediums, as well as in air.
> 
> ...


 
my word nerys thanks for proving my point hehe very good must say!!


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

ZIPPY&VESPA said:


> No there is a food chain we are at the top just kill them quickly!!:lol2:


Hehe, thats fair!

You know Roald Dahls BFG can hear plants screaming when their stems are twisted and torn  :2thumb:


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

Crownan said:


> I totally can believe that plants would process 'pain' in some way, as they know when they must heal/regenerate. But on what level, who knows?


Read "The Secret Life of Plants" by Christopher Bird, Crow, a very interesting book.

And if a tree falls in a forest and there is no-one there to hear it, it does not make a noise. It will cause vibrations to travel through the air but with nothing there to convert these vibrations to electrical impulses that can then be interpretated by a 'brain' into sound, there can be no sound.


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Fixx said:


> Read "The Secret Life of Plants" by Christopher Bird, Crow, a very interesting book.
> 
> And if a tree falls in a forest and there is no-one there to hear it, it does not make a noise. It will cause vibrations to travel through the air but with nothing there to convert these vibrations to electrical impulses that can then be interpretated by a 'brain' into sound, there can be no sound.


I might have to look that up!

And I like the swerve on the does the pope shit in the woods theory :lol2:


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## Kylie (Mar 12, 2006)

Crownan said:


> Hehe, thats fair!
> 
> You know Roald Dahls BFG can hear plants screaming when their stems are twisted and torn  :2thumb:


yes thats why we should all cut them quickly save his big ears!!


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Crownan said:


> I might have to look that up!
> 
> And I like the swerve on the does the pope shit in the woods theory :lol2:


if the pope shits in the woods and no-one is there to see it.. has he really done it or not..

and more to the point.. why is he not shitting in the vatican!

N


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Nerys said:


> if the pope shits in the woods and no-one is there to see it.. has he really done it or not..
> 
> and more to the point.. why is he not shitting in the vatican!
> 
> N


 
HAHAHAHA Exactly!! :lol2:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The issue of plants feeling pain surfaced a few years ago, when we were debating with the antis on cview. A few of us got a little enthusiastic about the idea and took the pi*s out of the antis by forming some new organisations to parody the likes of the RSPCA and Animal Aid, we formed Plant Aid and the RSPCP (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Plants, the more militant formed the PLF (Plant Liberation Front) Below is just a section from a few of the posts, it was a long thread…. Unfortunately the ‘antis’ did not see any humour in this at all, which made this all the more funy…

Mr.Mawson,
In my quest to at least get some sort of response from you, i have started this topic. I was watching the wife prepare dinner the other night and it suddenly occurred to me that plants may feel pain. What do you think?
-----------------
Eddie Munt
Shop-owner,

______________

*BAD NEWS FOR VEGETARIANS:
PLANTS FEEL PAIN*
It has come to our attention at THE UNCOVEROR that something startling has been discovered by Dr. Bill Williams, a botanist at The Helvetica Institute. If his preliminary findings turn out to be true, they will prove that killing plants for food is no less cruel than killing animals for food. "Plants are aware," says Dr. Williams, "and they feel pain!"
Dr. Williams, and his team were doing experiments on talking to plants. He had set out to prove that this helped them only because it blows carbon dioxide over their leaves. He had one team speak lovingly to the plants, and another threaten and verbally abuse them. To the surprise of all involved, the plants that were lovingly spoken to thrived, producing large, lovely flowers. Their growth rates were off the charts! The plants that were verbally abused and threatened never bloomed. Some even withered and died. 
His team then connected EEG electrodes to several plants, and measured their responses to various stimuli. "They definitely felt it when we pricked them with needles. One of my staff even burned one with a lighter. Not only did its EEG go off the charts, but so did every plant in the same room!" Dr. Williams is submitting his findings to other scientists for further review. He told me that plants not only seem to be aware and to feel pain, it looks like they can even communicate. They may even be sentient beings. 
He told me, "I hadn't thought of it until now, but how does a fruit tree know how to make a sweet attractive fruit that animals will eat when it drops off, and spread the seeds? How do flowers know how to attract bees with sweet, fragrant nectar, and get their pollen spread about, assuring a next generation? They may be doing this consciously!" Maybe Disney will make a cartoon about a happy little vegetable. He will be called Buddy the Carrot. He'll lose his mother to the farmer when he picks her, and eats her. That could do to vegetables what Bambi did to meat! Carrots may in fact be more intelligent than deer. Who knows for sure? You read it here first at THE UNCOVEROR.
-----------------
peace

___________

East Lansing, MI - Researchers from Michigan State University discovered that plants have a rudimentary nerve structure which allows them to feel pain. 
David Blackford who heads the research team explained, "The nervous system is undeveloped, but it is there. This could be the evolutionary breakthrough that we've been looking for."
While a great research breakthrough for scientists, the discovery causes a dilemma for strict vegetarians who don't eat animal products because of concerns about animal safety. 
A group of vegetarians at the local Carrot Café restaurant shared their feelings. 
"If a potato feels pain, I might as well eat a baby seal," said Carrie Selby of Lansing. "Or maybe, I'll try out that all-dirt diet I've heard so much about."
Jenna Chang from Okemos added, "I always thought I heard a tiny scream every time I pulled a carrot out of the ground at the community garden."
Meat lovers reported a much greater desire to devour a salad after hearing the news. "I knew it," exclaimed one carnivore, "those vegetarians act all high and mighty and they're just as big of killers as I am. Heck, even more so. Only one cow had to die to make my steak, but lots of plants were massacred to make that mixed green salad!"
People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants sprang up concurrently with the announcement. "We've placed picketers at cornfields around the country. They grow these things so close together, the stalks barely have room to turn around and move," said PETP spokesperson William Wagner.
"We're recommending that our members focus on food items that don't feel pain like nerve damaged infants or Styrofoam," Wagner continued. "Here, have one of our 'Salad is Murder' T-shirts." 
-----------------
peace

___________________

Bruce,
Excellent stuff !!! We should start a group called Plant Aid and make loads of money. The evidence you have produced above is far better than any evidence produced by the anti pet keeping organisations so the donations should pour in. I will fill my shop with earth so that we will have somewhere to put the plants we rescue until i can find an RSPCA approved greengrocer to sell them to. I will see if i can find some immoral people within the plant and food industries who are prepared to sell out their comrades. Maybe we could charge 10p per night for boarding and also witness fees.
-----------------
Eddie Munt
Shop-owner,

_____________

"Oh dear, now Twotto will try to stop me keeping orchids as they are tropical plants requiring specialised conditions that are impossible for him to replicate. They have to be kept in perspex coffins (greenhouses) and carry disease and parasites.
-----------------
Rex"
_________________

Rex,
As a founder member of plant aid it would be handy if i had your address, just to look at your orchids, not to seize them you understand. 
-----------------
Eddie Munt
Shop-owner,

_____________

As I've killed virtually every plant I've looked after, I shall henceforth be known as Clifford Coventry and hire myself out as an expert. 
I've already got several letters after my name...
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VSOP, KGB, CIA, TTFN, G & T, ETC

___________________

These stories have been popping up for years, proving that plants suffer, then reports proving that the original reports were wrong and so forth.
Meat eaters usualy pick up on these stories and have a dig at vegetarians and vegans.
However we all have to eat to survive, and if plants did feel pain then a vege would be causing much less suffering than their meat eating counterparts, as it takes a hell of a lot of plant material to convert via an animals digestive system to animal protien.
For each pound of meat, massive amounts of vegetables will have been needed, then the animal also then has to die to provide the meat for the dinner plate.
-----------------
MORG
________________

*You forgot to mention all the thousands of animals birds and insects that are shot and poisoned every day by the farmers and their game keepers in their attempts to protect the crops that David and his friends like to eat with a clear conscience. *
*My near neighbour is a game keeper, he sells all the eatable pest species he shoots to a company that ships all the meat over to the continent. He fills twelve large chest freezers with rabbits, hares, pheasants, pigeons etc every three months, This doesn’t include all the non edible animals he shoots or all the smaller animals and bugs that get poisoned.*
*You also have to remember that, for example, one cow dies to feed a large number of people but Many animals die to produce a cabbage that only feeds a handfull of people.*
*Hows your salad tonight Mr Mawson?*
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Gordon


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Gordon,
Very good points but we all know david want all animals dead.
Lets look at the evidence,
1, he was very happy about the fish shop deaths,
2, he cant say arnswer a simple question saying rether to put down or keep as pets,
3, the lattest rspca policy document,
4, the fact he never talks about what will happen to our animals if they win.
David might as well eat meat as hes helping to slaughter a lot of animals!
*It does seem that way but what seems strange to me is that some one who belongs to a group who’s sexual activities were once considered illegal and who members fought hard against these laws, to the point where they have now achieved the recognition of single sex marriages being recognised as legal, should be so eager to get the perfectly legal activities of another group criminalised.*
*David, will you and John be tying the knot now the laws are changing? *
*No chance of an invite to the wedding I suppose?*

______________


Eddie,
I would like to offer my services as Director General of Plant Aid, I believe that I can bring a wealth of experience to this important new campaigning organisation. You may think it ironic perhaps, but my past record as a defender of animal abusers makes me the ideal candidate, I have seen the light, so to speak. I have my scientific adviser Sir Prof. Clifford Coventry is willing to avail you of his services, plus a raft of other dedicated conmen, sorry, sorry campaigners who will work tirelessly for the cause. Naturally in order to take on such an odious task a modest remuneration package would be in order, it need only be a token gesture, perhaps as little as 90K (plus expenses of course) would be appropriate.
I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.
-----------------
Chris

__________________

As you are standing for the post of director general of Plant Aid Mr Newman, 

I am sure we would all be grateful if you would publicly condemn the keeping of daffodils and tulips in cages or perspex coffins (aka green houses)

__________________

Mr Newman, I must object to this application as you are completely compromised in that your wife is a qualified horticulturist and specialises in landscape gardening for profit.
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Rex
____________________

Mr Sumner that is a thoroughly scurrilous accusation on your part, the fact my wife is employed by a multination conglomerate with a vested interest in horticultural matters is entirely irrelevant. I operate on the highest possible levels of personal integrity; you can rest assured of my impartiality. 
-----------------
Chris

________________

Ive never been good at keeping live plants well so does that make me cheif advisor to plant aid on all plant relatted matters?
opps sorry was pretening to be some one else then (no prizes for guessing who)!
-----------------
Jay

___________________

Oi - Jay ! Got that one covered mate.
Sincerely,
HRH Prof Rear Admiral Sir Clifford Coventry,

_____________________


Mr Newman, is there any truth in the rumour that you have applied to Defra to be the official inspectors of at-risk premises? The definition of at-risk being the receipt of an anonymous complaint against the premises.
-----------------
Rex

_________________

Mr Sumner et al, 
I write to inform you that your libelous accusations against my associate have been passed to our firm of legal advisors who will begin libel damage proceedings if you do not retract them immediately in writing, 100 lines in capitals. 
Regards
N. Steadlady
PA to C. Newman - Director General Plant Aid

______________

Retract your retraction request Ms Steadlady... or the tomato gets it !!

I. P. Nightly

_________________

Mr P. Nightly, 
Your comments have been forwarded to our team of legal experts and writs were issued against you yesterday in anticipation. 
No retraction of the retraction will be forthcoming as slanderous accusations against my esteemed colleague will not be tolerated. 
As a former civil servant Mr Newman is fully qualified to approach DEFRA in his capacity as collection/rescue service provider. 
Additionally, professor Coventry has the highest qualifications for his position, he has a doctorate in plant physiology and herbal psychology from the University of Copenhagen and indeed to date he has several papers and letters published in world renouned scientific journals such as D.U.N.G. the bimonthly newsletter for compost enthusiasts, amongst countless others. Director General Newman has the utmost faith in his qualification which he has seen scribbled on a beer mat down the pub, while he was out catching up with his old traffic warden friends.
N Steadlady
PA to C. Newman - Director Genral Plant Aid


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

Fixx said:


> And if a tree falls in a forest and there is no-one there to hear it, it does not make a noise. It will cause vibrations to travel through the air but with nothing there to convert these vibrations to electrical impulses that can then be interpretated by a 'brain' into sound, there can be no sound.



Sound is a disturbance of mechanical energy that propagates through matter as a wave (through fluids as a compression wave, and through solids as both compression and shear waves). Sound is further characterized by the generic properties of waves, which are frequency, wavelength, period, amplitude, speed, and direction (sometimes speed and direction are combined as a velocity vector, or wavelength and direction are combined as a wave vector).



*Humans perceive sound by the sense of hearing. By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and are audible to people. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in the air that cannot be heard by humans, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas.*



The matter that supports the sound is called the medium. Sound propagates as waves of alternating pressure, causing local regions of compression and rarefaction. Particles in the medium are displaced by the wave and oscillate. The scientific study of the absorption and reflection of sound waves is called acoustics.
Noise is often used to refer to an unwanted sound. In science and engineering, noise is an undesirable component that obscures a wanted signal.



as we all know.. it is not just humans who "hear" sounds.. sound is not defined by whether or not it can be "heard" by a brain..


sound is a vibration of air.. the way a human percieves that is as a noise.. that noise however is created by the way the brain reads the vibrations on the ear drum... ergo sound is not something that is only defined by aural capability, sound IS sound in its own right


just coz there is not a human there to hear it, does not mean it does not happen.



and lol chris, yes i was reading the forums again last night with some amusement!

N


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

*In the woods......*

I thought it was just Terry Pratchett books that made reference to the fact that no one hears a tree fall in the woods.............?

Tell that to the bear behind taking a dump!


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

once again nice discussion, but no conclusions no plan of action, no action of any kind really, just a load of waffle, what a shame


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## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

you know.. 

i don't think this thread actually was asking for 

"conclusions, plans of action" 

and so on...

sometimes it is possible to discuss something generally..

so pete, what "plan of action" would you propose.. or did you just post to add the the "general waffle"

N


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

i prefer to leave conclusions and plans to those who like the sound of there own voice nerys, and those who have organisations who should be doing something, but i guess thats to much to ask


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

So how about I set up an anti anti insect pain society and promise to bring it to the masses so we can all jump at the same time in demonstration and move the earths axis.

That would get the attention of whitehall.

Oh, and I will charge a £10 membership fee.

Ok, there we go, no waffle, a firm plan.

whos in then ?

Sad fact is, there has to be waffle, so that the useful comments can be taken in, and acted upon, built in to a plan then issued.

No one is going to do as they are told with out thinking about it, unless they are brainwashed .... :crazy:


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I don't know - people moan the discussions are too heavy and now they are not heavy enough heheh

Some really interesting things posted up though regarding the scientific stuff behind pain and sound and so on- not ever thought of it like that before


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