# I may have poisoned our young beardy



## Lime (Jan 13, 2013)

Hi, I wish my first post here was under different circumstances but I fear I've made a horrible mistake and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

It's a 4-5 week old bearded dragon (male, we think). At 9 o'clock tonight while giving his evening feed of crickets, I hand fed him a small single petal from a house plant we have. I thought nothing of it at the time until after his lights went off at 10 o'clock. Later I began trawling through pictures of house plants online and to my shock I think the plant is, Kalanchoe blossfeldiana , (flaming katy). I quickly found articles about it being quite highly toxic in most animals. Little info on dosages in small animals can be found online, the dosage was indeed small but I'm scared that this is enough to harm him. 

He is currently sleeping and appears to be breathing normally. I can't get to a vet until the morning, should I leave his light off and continue his cycle or will he need heat? I have activated charcoal, should I try and administer some? I'm shaking and really in need of some advice. Thanks.

Regretfully, Lime.


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## davree (Jul 23, 2012)

To be honest I would leave everything as it is and get to a vet as soon as you can tomorrow.


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Yes indeed.

There is quite litterally nothing you can do at this time.

Leave him rest and check him in the morning...As you said its only a small amount.

He SHOULD be fine...But could be wise to take him and explain all to the vet. Perhaps even take a sample of the plant aswell.

I cant imagine, worst case, that this 'potentialy' poisonous leaf will have an IMMEDIATE serious health effect in such a short period of time i.e. Instant death as it wouldnt be safe for us no doubt (meaning you wouldnt own it lol)


Good Luck my clumsy friend 

(Dont beat your self up about it, mistakes happen. And this is probably a very common mistake with people assuming all green is all good.)


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## Ieuan7 (Dec 19, 2012)

Oh and keep him on his usal heat cycle mate.

No need to alter it.


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## Lime (Jan 13, 2013)

Thank you for the replies guys. I really hope the little guy is ok, I feel terrible... 

I'm going to try and get some sleep and I'll update in the morning. Thanks again and sorry for laying this on you at this hour!


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Ieuan7 said:


> Oh and keep him on his usal heat cycle mate.
> 
> No need to alter it.



I'd disagree on that one. If you put him back on his normal heat in the morning then it may increase the movement of toxins in his system. Keep him cool and quiet until you get him to a specialist reptile Vet asap for blood tests, even small amounts of a toxin can have long term effects that are not immediatly aparent.

Keeping him cool is reptile version of a tournequet on a snake bite. It slows their system down and also their digestion. As he ate that plant late he may not have digested it properly yet and its possible they could counter any toxins before they hit his system during digestion.

I'd also get some photo's of that plant and send them to a horticultural society for immediate identification just in case you misidentified it.


Phone the reptile house at London zoo first thing in the morning, they have weekend staff on who may be able to offer you some help until you can get him to a vet.

He may 'seem ok' but do not take the risk.


edit

After a bit of a mooch around. I lived in Africa for many years and know this plant. We used to scour the stable fields for it and pull it up to avoid poisoning. Horses had to eat a fair bit of it to kill but it would make them very sick indead.

Symptoms start a few hours after eating once its digested, so keep him cool and slow his digestion down.

Dependant on how much he ate there is little a vet can do really except to get him to throw it up and then treat with charcoal to absorb the toxins. They can also help with keeping the heart going until the toxin works itself through the system.

He needs to see a specialist vet asap. Phone them as an emergency case first thing in the morning and talk directly to the vet so they can do some research before you get there and see what needs doing.


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## Exzhal (Jul 13, 2012)

I have to say it since no one else seems to have but that's quite irresponsible of you to feed something like that - especially something unknown to even yourself - to one of your pets. I'm sure you meant no harm but if you for whatever reason feel like giving something from your house plant to a pet you really should of research it first, not after, though I'm not sure why you would even give something like that to any pet even if it was a healthy food source unless you specifically grow it to be food.

I hope it doesn't harm him and I agree with Nicnet about keeping him cool to slow his digestion down until you can get a more direct answer from the vet.


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## Kelfezond (Nov 20, 2010)

nicnet said:


> Keeping him cool is reptile version of a tournequet on a snake bite. It slows their system down and also their digestion. As he ate that plant late he may not have digested it properly yet and its possible they could counter any toxins before they hit his system during digestion.


I'm going to nitpick here and mention that a tournequet on a snake bite is a bad idea - or at least that's what I was told on my venomous training 

Anyway back to the beardie! 


Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Kelfezond said:


> I'm going to nitpick here and mention that a tournequet on a snake bite is a bad idea - or at least that's what I was told on my venomous training
> 
> Anyway back to the beardie!
> 
> ...



lol I agree with you to a point, but was the best way I could think of describing it at the time. Tounequet on a snake bite is only for a few mins until you get the toxins out as best you can then you need to loosen it or risk the limb (and for those who are thinking of sucking them out using your mouth...yips that will kill you lol...). Its the tournequet itself that is the bad idea on the whole and risks the limb regardless of the source of injury but it has its uses. I've used one on myself before after a snake bite to my leg on a hike. turned out that the snake was only mildly venemous though so i was lucky...I lived in a green and black mamba zone but lucky it wasn't one of them that got me, never did work out what it was though as I didn't see the snake...hence the tournequet.


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## cjbss9 (Jan 3, 2010)

*flaming katy*

The petals from what I undertsand from Tortoise care contain bufadienolide (which is a cardiac glycoside) this can cause the heart to stop in small animals and this is why it is a no no in a Tortoise enclosures.
I presume with such a small beardie this amount would classify as significant!! I would automatically go with keeping him cool then getting to the vets! however on such a small beardie they will be limited on what they can do?
Good luck and I hope it all ends well!!
Chris


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

I can't offer any other advice than what has been suggested I just want to wish you the best of luck. Please let us know how you get on.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

cjbss9 said:


> The petals from what I undertsand from Tortoise care contain bufadienolide (which is a cardiac glycoside) this can cause the heart to stop in small animals and this is why it is a no no in a Tortoise enclosures.
> I presume with such a small beardie this amount would classify as significant!! I would automatically go with keeping him cool then getting to the vets! however on such a small beardie they will be limited on what they can do?
> Good luck and I hope it all ends well!!
> Chris


Heres where it gets complicated. The commonly prescribed heart drug digoxin is a cardiac glycoside. It slows down and strengthens the heartbeat. Cooling an animal also slows down the heartbeat as the metabolic rate is reduced. 

I would seek urgent and immediate veterinary advice. There are a number of drugs that can be used to counter the effect of digitalis toxicity which may be of benefit in this situation. Although I doubt any but the most specialist veterinary centres would be able to offer it, temporary external pacing is another option for treating drug induced 'heart block'. Either way, the animal needs specialist monitoring until the stuff is out of the animals system. Unfortunately we dont know the absorption rate, half life or the overall systemic effect of the stuff. The theory behind keeping the animal cool sounds very reasonable until you consider the effect on heart rate. However warming the animal. although increasing metabolic and heart rate may speed up the absorption process and cause rapid deterioration. Its between a rock and hard place Im afraid. If you havent already done so please phone the emergency vet and tell them the animal has ingested a cardiac glycoside and get their advice.

Best of luck, please let us know how you get on.

One positive did just occur to me. You say you fed a petal. I hope Im correct in this but a petal is likely to contain far less toxin than a sap filled leaf.


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## cjbss9 (Jan 3, 2010)

*heart rate!*

Absolutely!! Doh!! I never thought of that!! as used in heart condition care it slows the heart rate, but I suppose our assumption was that at best it hadnt digested it yet? maybe a happy medium temp would have been best?? enough to up the heart rate but not enough to aid digestion at least until a vet was seen?
In the meantime keep us all informed!
Chris


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I am going to go totally against the grain here.. 

I think everybody is completely over reacting. Animals try small amounts of new foods all the time. Generally they do not drop dead every time they try something toxic. Poisonous plants generally taste bad. They try a leaf, eat one, and stop at that. 

Tortoises for example can live very long lives in the wild, and nobody is running around shouting " For Christ sake DON'T EAT THAT" !!!!! 

If there is some nasty toxin in the system, what can the vet do tomorrow ? How much research is there out there he/ she can fall back on on the treatment of that particular toxin in Bearded Dragons ?

I suspect the vet will either say "he looks fine to me, come back if you see any problems" or will subject the poor animal to a range of unnecessary and unpleasant treatment. 

Alcohol is a really nasty toxin, as is the chemicals in tobacco. A long time ago nicoteine was banned as an insecticide for safety reasons. But it is very effective at killing insects very quickly. Yet it seems we seem to be able to tolerate small quantities as humans on a very regular basis.

I wish it well of course, but if your dragon drops dead I will be very very surprized.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Mal said:


> Heres where it gets complicated. The commonly prescribed heart drug digoxin is a cardiac glycoside. It slows down and strengthens the heartbeat. Cooling an animal also slows down the heartbeat as the metabolic rate is reduced.
> 
> I would seek urgent and immediate veterinary advice. There are a number of drugs that can be used to counter the effect of digitalis toxicity which may be of benefit in this situation. Although I doubt any but the most specialist veterinary centres would be able to offer it, temporary external pacing is another option for treating drug induced 'heart block'. Either way, the animal needs specialist monitoring until the stuff is out of the animals system. Unfortunately we dont know the absorption rate, half life or the overall systemic effect of the stuff. The theory behind keeping the animal cool sounds very reasonable until you consider the effect on heart rate. However warming the animal. although increasing metabolic and heart rate may speed up the absorption process and cause rapid deterioration. Its between a rock and hard place Im afraid. If you havent already done so please phone the emergency vet and tell them the animal has ingested a cardiac glycoside and get their advice.
> 
> ...


This^^ 


and as for over reacting this plant HAS and IS capible of killing and has killed animals, many beardies have died in lesser circumstances!!!

Their is little iinfo on the petals but I think it is reasonible to assume the buildup may have some negatives.

Doing further reading into the plant the lethal estimated dosage for cattle and larger livestock mammals is only 7mg (which is worth pointing out, their stomachs are more than capible of digesting hard to digest plants so that says alot, their is further information to suggest feeding anything (with calcium or other supplements may cause complications probs because it is a cardiac glycoside (heart rhythem/mucle traction/ function etc and I can only guess it has at some point in the day), without going into detail the moment I relised this plant was toxic I would have looked into a method to encourage regurgitation deliberately, an supporteed fluid and intestinal flora loss with probiotics and vet aid, diorrhea is a common symptom too, which suggests keeping the beardy hydrated, lethargy is also a common thing.

Deffo see a vet, charcoal is suggested as a treatment too from what I can gather, not sure if this is the same with reptiles.

Even if a beardy doesn't die their is still going to be pain and discomfort and the effects could last a long time.

good luck.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

I have to say, I am inclined to agree in part with this. I suspect as it was just a petal very little if any toxin will have been ingested. However if the stuff is as toxic as others indicate and the dragon does become effected then it is likely to have serious problems. If it was in a veterinary facility when those effects hit, it may stand a chance with supportive therapy. If it is effected by the stuff whilst in the comfort of its own viv, chances are it would be lights out. 

As the op hasnt updated, I suspect the little thing is happily munchin its crix blissfully unaware of whats been going on. Hopefully tonight it will be tucked up in its little dragon bed, snoozing away rather than having late night snacks.






Dragon Farm said:


> I am going to go totally against the grain here..
> 
> I think everybody is completely over reacting. Animals try small amounts of new foods all the time. Generally they do not drop dead every time they try something toxic. Poisonous plants generally taste bad. They try a leaf, eat one, and stop at that.
> 
> ...


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## Harry_NW (Feb 15, 2010)

So what happened - is the dragon ok - did the vet help/advice? update would be great!


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

I've made similar mistakes in the past and mine looke sick for a few days and refuesed food but then she had a massive poo and was back to normal


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## Lime (Jan 13, 2013)

Hi folks, apologies for the late update. It's great news, he hasn't shown any symptoms what so ever. He looked happy when he woke up, colour normal, breathing normal. He was running around eating in no time and the consistency of his poop is fine (it was a particularly long stool I must say). And yes tonight he is tucked up in his little dragon bed. 

I still feel like an idiot for potentially putting the little guy in danger, the scare I had last night put a massive boot up my behind and I can assure you all that nothing of this sort will ever happen again. Thanks for the help everyone.

Here's a pic of him basking this afternoon, meet Dex:


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## Exzhal (Jul 13, 2012)

Glad he's ok.


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## switchback (Nov 25, 2011)

Glad to hear

You did the best thing though....realised you mad a mistake and acted on it 

Cute lil bugger 

(the dragon not you )


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Glad he's ok. It's such an easy mistake to make but you need to be so careful because you wouldn't believe what garden centres are selling to people. Look up Convallaria majalis (Lilly of the Valley).


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## Bio (Oct 12, 2012)

Really happy he is ok. And just by the way he is a stunner too


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## davree (Jul 23, 2012)

Glad to hear he is ok

Sent from my LG-P920 using Tapatalk 2


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## cjbss9 (Jan 3, 2010)

*nice*

Its nice hes ok, lesson learnt!! you might have made some other people think twice aswell with your thread!!
Good luck with him! good looking little fella by the way:2thumb:
Chris


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## GECKO MICK (Jun 6, 2012)

Get to the vets tomorrow.Hope everythings ok.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Personally I'd still take him for a checkup. That particular plant toxins can take a few days to kick in and he is a baby still and if it does hit him he may not stand much chance. A vet may be able to give him something to counter any possibility of toxins getting him though.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

nicnet said:


> Personally I'd still take him for a checkup. That particular plant toxins can take a few days to kick in and he is a baby still and if it does hit him he may not stand much chance. A vet may be able to give him something to counter any possibility of toxins getting him though.


I have the greatest respect for the veterinary profession. I will be seeing one this afternoon with one of our dogs ! 

But it must be remembered that exotic pet keeping has seen a massive increase in popularity in the last 10 years or so. Most vets will not have had *any *training in the treatment of reptiles. At the same time when presented with a patient they often feel the need to do _something_.

When you say "take him for a checkup", probably the owner is better suited to knowing if the dragon is acting normally or not. It is very likely that it will be stressed in an unusual situtation, and will show an increased heart rate. In any case, will the vet know what the normal heart rate is for a Bearded Dragon !! I doubt it very much. 

I suspect the last thing this lizard needs is a stomach tube filling its belly full of charcoal powder, or injections with strong chemicals. 

My advice would be to the owner, is to continue to monitor the lizard, and otherwise keep it away from vets. From my experience vets dealing with reptiles can sometimes, if not often, do more harm than good.


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## Exzhal (Jul 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> I have the greatest respect for the veterinary profession. I will be seeing one this afternoon with one of our dogs !
> 
> But it must be remembered that exotic pet keeping has seen a massive increase in popularity in the last 10 years or so. Most vets will not have had *any *training in the treatment of reptiles. At the same time when presented with a patient they often feel the need to do _something_.
> 
> ...


As long as it's a vet with a specialist it's _usually_ fine, the one I use for my snakes was knowledgeable and a big help. The first time I used him I made sure to ask a bunch of questions I already knew the answer to just to make sure :whistling2: Quick way of finding one is http://www.reptilevets.co.uk/.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

Every other vet seems to be a 'reptile specialist' nowadays ! They can't afford not to be.

I have no idea what the rest of you think a vet could do, several days on.


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## Exzhal (Jul 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> Every other vet seems to be a 'reptile specialist' nowadays ! They can't afford not to be.
> 
> I have no idea what the rest of you think a vet could do, several days on.


Haha very true, just do as I said and question them with things you already know the answer to (obviously acting like you don't know the answers) and see if it matches up :2thumb:

I don't agree with taking him now too as it's a bit too late to be honest. The only thing you can do now really is drop off a fecal sample so they can test for anything obvious but no need to put the lizard through the stress of a vet visit at this point.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

I doubt very much if the labs they use will have the ability to test for such unusual chemicals in the system. 

I heard a vet the other day on R4 say that it was incredibly difficult/virtually impossible, to know for certain that dogs had definately been poisoned by commonly available rat poisons. All they can do is treat for rat poison based on the syptoms exhibited by the dog. 

If they can't test for rat poison, what hope for a nasty chemical from a madagascan house plant !


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## Exzhal (Jul 13, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> I doubt very much if the labs they use will have the ability to test for such unusual chemicals in the system.
> 
> I heard a vet the other day on R4 say that it was incredibly difficult/virtually impossible, to know for certain that dogs had definately been poisoned by commonly available rat poisons. All they can do is treat for rat poison based on the syptoms exhibited by the dog.
> 
> If they can't test for rat poison, what hope for a nasty chemical from a madagascan house plant !


Well you learn something new every day don't you  guess a fecal test won't help either then :lol2:


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> Every other vet seems to be a 'reptile specialist' nowadays ! They can't afford not to be.
> 
> I have no idea what the rest of you think a vet could do, several days on.


Why don't you just admit that you don't like vets? You talk about them as if they are PAH staff!

There is more than enough dogs and cats out there to ensure that vets never even have to think about reptiles. Never mind "they can't afford not to". That's rubbish! I have yet to see a vet claim to be a reptile specialist when they are not.


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

geckograham said:


> Why don't you just admit that you don't like vets? You talk about them as if they are PAH staff!
> 
> There is more than enough dogs and cats out there to ensure that vets never even have to think about reptiles. Never mind "they can't afford not to". That's rubbish! I have yet to see a vet claim to be a reptile specialist when they are not.


I thought it was obvious I was talking slightly tougue in cheek with my comments about vets ? 

No, I genuinely have a lot of respect for vets. More than most people I suspect. They have to be extremely smart people (much smarter than me) to just start the very long course of education. 

Its obvious I don't like vets since one of my dogs is being treated by one at the moment (that was sarcasm, in case it wasn't clear !)

But the fact remains that the majority of them will have had NO formal training in reptiles while in training. But in my experience most vets will treat them even when they are not specialists. 

Doctors will often give antibiotics to patients with viral infections ! These are also smart people. But patients often prefer to get something to take rather than to be told to go home, rest, keep warm, and take plenty of fluids.


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## geckograham (Jan 22, 2012)

Dragon Farm said:


> I thought it was obvious I was talking slightly tougue in cheek with my comments about vets ?
> 
> No, I genuinely have a lot of respect for vets. More than most people I suspect. They have to be extremely smart people (much smarter than me) to just start the very long course of education.
> 
> ...


You must be joking about doctors, you need a letter from the queen to get antibiotics from mine!


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

As I said before. I've dealt with this toxin before in horses and it can take up to a few days before it kicks in dependant on dose. Its not an 'instant toxin' that you'd normally see symptoms of in a few hours or the next day if only a small amount was ingested.

Its also more viralent in the summer, which is when it flowers.

I very nearly lost my own horse many years ago due to it, and it would have had no access at all to the plants for at least 4 days prior. It ended up spending nearly a week in a specialist horse hospital on 'life support' to keep his heart beating till the toxin worked itself out his system. And he was no small horse either. 19hh American saddlebred stallion.

Its possible to treat for it, but only if you take it to a vet to get the treatment. Leave it too late and its very hard to combat. Since reptiles hide symptoms so well also it may well be too late by the time it shows any.

I find that the problem with a lot of 'armchair vets' is that they will gladly give advice on things they know nothing about. If that dragon has ingested just enough of that plant to be toxic to it, then its likely to show symptoms in the next few days and not immediatly the day after. 

This is not rat poison, bleach, etc that would work fast. Its a poison that acts when it been metabolised into the system and if I remember rightly collects in the fat cells, once those fat cells start to get burned its then when the toxin triggers.

Hence why I said to take him to a specialist reptile vet and not a fluffy bunny vet. Also why I suggested contacting London Zoo reptile house for advice on toxicology of hte plant with reptiles.



Hey but I only lived in an area for 20 years where that plant genus grows and had animals that got poisoned by it.....





side note

Toxicosis
occurs primarily in the
summer months because the
flowers contain a much
higher concentration of glycosides
than the stems, leaves, or roots do.


http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aspcapro.org%2Fmydocuments%2Fv-vetm1104_933-936.pdf&ei=Ifr0UIGWN4Gc0QWnrwE&usg=AFQjCNHXb0dOzvC69eDTYrae8gic27sRvA&sig2=uNPDu0L36Ip-anWfmH9Bww&bvm=bv.41018144,d.d2k


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## Dragon Farm (Aug 7, 2009)

What, your horse has also been poisoned by Kalanchoe ?

I am guessing London Zoo is very unlikely to have experience with poisoning from a (Madagascan) house plant.

I guess you are talking about ragwort (i have equines too). But how is that relevant to the different poisons in that kalanchoe species ?


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Dragon Farm said:


> What, your horse has also been poisoned by Kalanchoe ?
> 
> I am guessing London Zoo is very unlikely to have experience with poisoning from a (Madagascan) house plant.
> 
> I guess you are talking about ragwort (i have equines too). But how is that relevant to the different poisons in that kalanchoe species ?



Yes my horse was poisoned by it, I lived in Africa for 20 years, and no that genus does not only come from madagasca, its naturalised in Africa also as well as in the Americas now.

London zoo has access to a toxicology database and is one of the 'go to' centres that hospitals use in toxin cases.


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## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Anyone that has read Nics numerous posts on here knows they are generally backed by sound knowledge and experience. If she says she has had experience with this plant, has seen its effects and gained knowledge about it, I wouldnt doubt her. She doesnt post bs.

It isnt going to cost the op much to make a few phone calls explaining the situation and the information relating to toxicity and delayed onset of effect. All vets have access to a toxicology database and all vets have access to specialists. There are a few highly experienced reptile specialist vets in the UK, ones who have done speciaist training and gained specialist qualification. I know one teaches.at Edinburgh vet school, another is/ was at the QE animal hospital and we have one in a practice close to us. There are of course more vets with similar qualification scattered across the UK. Vets do network and a vet with absolutely no experience with herps has someone they can turn to for advice.

Chances are the dragon will be fine but there is also a chance it could become extremely unwell. Its better to look into this before that happens, not when the animal is in a state of collapse. A few phone calls wont break anyones bank but they might at least result in a vet being prepared in the unfortunate event the dragons condition deteriorates.


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Thank you for your kind words and vote of confidence Mal. Much appreciated.


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