# Do bearded dragons need insects to live?



## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

I don't know if I should continue feeding them to him? I have dead ones right now, and they have about a weeks worth of food left in them. I'm doing everything else right, so don't give me a whole care sheet. I just need to know. When these run out, I probably won't buy any more. It was just to see if he liked them, and to get his nutrition up. I've heard of the bearded dragon foods, so I was wondering, do they need bugs? 

Do they need live, also? Not both, but which one? Hes eating the dead ones fine, he is about one. (I knew you would ask his age!) I don't need to know how many, just does he need them? Thanks!!!!!


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

Yes they need bugs and yes they do, in my opinion, need to be alive. If you are buying the cans of dead crickets do you actually know how nutritious they are? Gut-loading your own means you know exactly what they have been eating and lets you get as much goodness into your dragon as possible.

I remember numbers being mentioned a while back for what ratio of bugs:veg you should be providing. For an adult it's probably something like 30:70/40:60.



Gavin.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Hi again! He has been living on dead ones for about a month now. I probably couldn't do live. But, more information is great. Thanks!!!!! And it says that they are nutritious. They are also freeze dried.

Your user says zero four. Does that mean you are eleven?

It's ok if you are! Thanks!!!!!


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## Shellsfeathers&fur (Jan 18, 2009)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Hi again! He has been living on dead ones for about a month now. I probably couldn't do live. But, more information is great. Thanks!!!!! And it says that they are nutritious. They are also freeze dried.
> 
> Your user says zero four. Does that mean you are eleven?
> 
> It's ok if you are! Thanks!!!!!


Gavin is a helpful and knowledgeable user on here, and I doubt very much that he is eleven years old!

Are you yourself 11?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Your bearded dragon needs at least 30% of his diet to be insects if he is adult, and 50 to 60% if he is still growing. This is a nutritional requirement, it's not optional. If you feel that strongly against feeding insects then rehome him and next time do research in advance. There are herbivorous lizards available as pets but the bearded dragon is not one of them.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

Seconded and thirded. Yes your beardie needs food and it really should be live and dusted. Imo cans of dead food are never going to be as nutritious as live gut loaded and properly hydrated insects.

I understand your feelings on feeding live. But you beardie is relying on you to give him a proper diet as he is not able to hunt for himself. Love food also offers enrichment for the beardie meaning he will be more active and happier in his viv.

If you arent willing to feed live inzects then you really shouldnt have got a beardie. Maybe rehoming him and researching a more suitable reptile is a good idea.
Reptiles can live a very long time if cared for properly. Please dont let yours be one of the many unfortunates who dies young due to malnutrition or lack pf other proper husbandry.


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## supatips (May 29, 2012)

Pretty much as above. 

Have you considered feeding somthing like silkworms to your dragon? I've no idea of the complete diets available but I have read that it can be problematic to get the dragon to recognise and accept them as food. Is there any reason you can't do live foods?


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Hi, I am not eleven, lol!

I rescued him from a terrible situation, he wouldn't have lived long there that's for sure.

I've got attached to him.  

There are bearded dragon foods and dead bugs! So why does it have to be live?

The reason is, its sad. I wouldn't like to be chomped up like that either. Separated from their family. Its sad.

Don't call me weak, I just think its sad.

Thanks!!!!!


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## supatips (May 29, 2012)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Hi, I am not eleven, lol!
> 
> I rescued him from a terrible situation, he wouldn't have lived long there that's for sure.
> 
> ...


Insects aren't mammals so don't have a family or anything like that. Throwing a few insects to a dragon is not really any different to say swatting a fly or somthing like that, it's the same end result and to be fair with a beardie it's very quick. They get into hunting mode and don't play with their prey at all.

The reasons for live food as opposed to dead insects matter have already been explained within this thread. 

Live feeding is a part of keeping certain species one of which is a beardie.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

supatips said:


> Insects aren't mammals so don't have a family or anything like that. Throwing a few insects to a dragon is not really any different to say swatting a fly or somthing like that, it's the same end result and to be fair with a beardie it's very quick. They get into hunting mode and don't play with their prey at all.
> 
> The reasons for live food as opposed to dead insects matter have already been explained within this thread.
> 
> Live feeding is a part of keeping certain species one of which is a beardie.


They have a family but, I agree, it's very quick. I am a veg and animal rescuer never tried to kill a bug. I would just have to talk my parents in to it.


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## SilverWings (Sep 26, 2013)

So you won't kill a bug but you'll happily let someone else do it? No different then to feeding your dragon, you aren't killing the crickets, you are getting him to do it.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Should I? What do I say to my parents?


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## markg6 (Apr 11, 2014)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Should I? What do I say to my parents?


"I need you to find a better home for my beardy, he's just not a reasonable fit for me." 

Try that out....

You'll be better of with a different species.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

supatips said:


> Pretty much as above.
> 
> Have you considered feeding somthing like silkworms to your dragon? I've no idea of the complete diets available but I have read that it can be problematic to get the dragon to recognise and accept them as food. Is there any reason you can't do live foods?


The complete diets, really aren't complete either way, I have huge frustrations with them, complete? nutrition even now isn't a topic fully unferstood, a whole fundamental complicated topic at best, and even now animal nutrition is still a fairly new development, considering most people have no clue, what there actual natural food items are, and what the nutritional values of those foods vary from per specfific nutrient component, its fair to say, anything that claims to be complete, really can't be after-all. 

With iguanas, and tortoises, (designs formulated from the same companies) there are pleanty of studies presented showing conflictions of nutrient intakes. (Susan Donoghues work noted conflictions in plant proteins in her work by around 5% higher or lower) in the same animals, fed the same quantities, in the same enviroments. 

A few owners have had problems resulting shortly after transfering them over onto these diets, (such as iguanas fitting in some cases) which doesn't suprise me at all considering how poorly they are designed. 

If there is one thing that annoys me more than the complete label, is the fact they call them natural and complete too. :devil:

I still haven't seen any representatives from these companies defend these points. :whistling2:
All I know is, I wouldn't be allowing my own pets to sniff them. 

Just had to point that out  
:2thumb:


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

No, what do I say to my parents to let me keep crickets?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> No, what do I say to my parents to let me keep crickets?


I would go with the brutally cold honest truth. 
He needs live bugs, not just for nutrition, but his mental health too, just assure them you will do everything you can to not make it a problem for the rest of the house, if they are trusting you with a live animal, and the ability to care for one, I am sure this would be a doddle.  

It shows responsibility.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Ok. I just need to know if and where I can get Dubia roaches.


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## judge360 (May 19, 2015)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Ok. I just need to know if and where I can get Dubia roaches.


Swell Reptiles will deliver them to your door Livefood for Reptiles | Swell Reptiles


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Your user says zero four. Does that mean you are eleven?


And your's says zero...

Also my birthday is in December so I doubt your logic works...

Anyway my age doesn't matter, it's the knowledge and understanding of the basic needs of reptiles that does.




Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> There are bearded dragon foods and dead bugs! So why does it have to be live?
> 
> The reason is, its sad. I wouldn't like to be chomped up like that either. Separated from their family. Its sad.


It doesn't have to be live but it certainly will give you a healthier dragon and if it is in the sort of state that you are making it out to be then it needs the very best of care. This includes feeding well gutloaded and looked after live insects. Not just crickets but what ever you can get your hands on. As has been said, try silkworms, calci-worms, locust and roaches. There are many species of live foods out there and there are plenty that avoid crickets. 

As has been said crickets are nothing like us and they don't seem to show the same nervous system as other animals. I have witnessed them being eaten alive by mantis and they don't even look like they know what is happening. They continue to groom themselves. What is sad is not giving a reptile what it deserves.




Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Should I? What do I say to my parents?





Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> No, what do I say to my parents to let me keep crickets?


You tell them that it is in the best interests of the dragon. You may be a 'veg' but that doesn't mean you can get in the way of a natural diet for the animals you keep. At least your not one of those idiots that think because you're a vegetarian that your animals need to be as well.




Stephen P said:


> Gavin is a helpful and knowledgeable user on here, and I doubt very much that he is eleven years old!


Thanks Stephen, I certainly try to be helpful when I can.



PS - They are others species of lizard that are 100% herbivorous. Maybe look at them next time.



Gavin.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Not delivered. Probably not going to get them. Im pretty sure pet supermarket doesn't have them, and petco or pet smart doesn't either. Sigh.

Thanks!!!!!


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Ok. I just need to know if and where I can get Dubia roaches.


Try the 'food' classifieds.



judge360 said:


> Swell Reptiles will deliver them to your door Livefood for Reptiles | Swell Reptiles


Best just breeding them to be honest.



Gavin.


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

Double post sorry



Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Not delivered. Probably not going to get them. Im pretty sure pet supermarket doesn't have them, and petco or pet smart doesn't either. Sigh.
> 
> Thanks!!!!!


Would help if you had put America as your location...



Gavin.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Sorry, lol. Crickets smell though. Can't find dubias ANYWHERE!!!!!


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

I have had some from silkworm.com also from the clasifieds section on here.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

Can you get locusts maybe ? they are one of the easier food to get hold of here.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Oh ok


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Are they like grasshoppers?


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Crickets are the easiest to find. They smell though. That's my moms number one issue.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

Crickets do smell, I really dislike using them. Locusts are a bit like hoppers I guess. roaches etc, are also good if you can find them.

Variety is key but crickets can be avoided if you can get other things 
try a google search for websites that sell live food in the US if that is where you are. Hopefully something will show up.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Yeah, is there a way for crickets not to smell? Keep them in a closed bin, etc?


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Ok. I just need to know if and where I can get Dubia roaches.


Time of post - 19:09



Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Sorry, lol. Crickets smell though. Can't find dubias ANYWHERE!!!!!


Time of post - 19:34


Are you sure you have looked everywhere? 

I'm sure there are plenty of places selling dubia roaches in the US.

EDIT: HERE, not everywhere then...



Gavin.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Not in my area.


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

The part below is not at all directed at the threadstarter, but since is a public forum I feel it's important that this is discussed every once in a while:

Don't rescue animals you have no experience with! Rescue work is a very delicate and hard work. i greatly admire people who are able to put in the time, work and money to rescue animals. But only a handful of people have the expertise to actually make it work. 

If you 'rescue' an animal you know nothing about you're only putting the animal in futher jeopardy. If you want to truly help animals in peril go and join an organization who have proper knowledge and funds to do so. If you're looking for a first reptile do not 'rescue' one. You're only enabling bad pet shops and keepers in doing so. Go to a good breeder and enable them, this will have a for more positive effect in the long run. Leave rescue work to professionals.


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## judge360 (May 19, 2015)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Not delivered. Probably not going to get them. Im pretty sure pet supermarket doesn't have them, and petco or pet smart doesn't either. Sigh.
> 
> Thanks!!!!!


 
Whats wrong with getting them delivered ? Your dragon needs them.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I am assuming you are from the USA? 

If so, the herp center forum may be of better help to you, as I understand it, most stores that sell reptiles, will be able to offer food (maybe being the weekend) they don't have any left, but don't give up trying and looking, petco is supposed to be okay for reptile stuff in some areas, (if they sell reptiles) they will definitely sell there live food or be able to source if for you.


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## markg6 (Apr 11, 2014)

Almost all of the big box stores sell crickets, mealworms, and supers. And you can occasionally catch them stocking hornworms and the other less commonly available feeder.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

My other question, if you get crickets, can you make them not smell?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> My other question, if you get crickets, can you make them not smell?


You will probably not smell anything, they will be fed off way before any smell builds up.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

What if you want to breed?????


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> What if you want to breed?????


Hi mate.
You might find this useful, they will require being cleaned out like most other things, but putting them somewhere (like in a garage, celler, loft) will help if the smells bother you, but for me, the lids go on, the lids go off, I haven't had much of a problem with a smell if it is kept on top of.  

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/233213-livefoods-careguides-black-crix-silent.html


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Thanks. Will have to look into that.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

The smell takes a while to build up, they are cheap, good for my dragon, easy to keep, and lasts a while!


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Driving to the pet store next week!

Thanks guys!!!!!


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## Chrisxr2 (May 26, 2015)

I am surprised if he eats the dead ones, my Aussie water dragon and Chinese one before where not interested in food unless it was moving.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Hmm. Try putting it in your hand and blowing it.


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## Chrisxr2 (May 26, 2015)

I just feed Agnes live food, couple of loose crickets round the house keeps the cats amused too.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Lol!!


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## HOTTOASTcass (Jun 6, 2015)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Hi, I am not eleven, lol!
> 
> I rescued him from a terrible situation, he wouldn't have lived long there that's for sure.
> 
> ...


Hi , I haven't read all 3-4 pages of this post just the first one 
I won't call you weak when I got my bearded dragon I was beside my self with crickets and locus I even had a cricket jump at me and I freaked out I was terrible my sister screams when I get the locus out and don't even go there with worms ..... Fast forward time I now happily breed super worms max worms meal worms and coin crickets 
I once even found a super worm that was not big like the others was small and looked half dead so I even made it its own set up fed it watered it named it shrimp I'm not a veggie I enjoy meat etc but I didn't have the heart to feed it off eventually after a month it did die of natural causes (aka my cat) 
But once u get into it you realise actually not so bad I use tongs for my food I can't touch them yet lol but I do touch and pick up wax worms when I give them as treats it does get better at first it like "omg I'm a murderer " I once had to cut a super in half to feed a very poorly dragon to encourage his eating it was really sad for me but my dragon didn't die I helped it back with them worms 
And besides u will find out what works for u what don't I to this day hate crickets 
But when u start buying u find dead ones u pay for half a tub to be dead anyway there not fast 
The larger locus XL and XXL are so beautiful wings and pink colour ur gonna wanna keep them to look at them 
But if ur so in love with ur dragon it needs live food dude I wish they didn't eat bugs but makes them happy and they really help there full of all kinds of stuff and a wax worm is like a MCdonalds burger to these reptiles (treats only!) 
So all I can say is give it a try for a few months if u think bugs are not for u .. Your dragon won't care u can't deal with it it cares about its tastes bugs not about how u feel about killing them it's brutal but they need live bugs 
And after a while they just become routine for u 
So hop to it get a variety going for the dude he will thank u and u will thank ur self when ur BD is all happy and healthy


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## ParoeduraPropensity (Jun 7, 2015)

Beardeddragonowner0 said:


> Sorry, lol. Crickets smell though. Can't find dubias ANYWHERE!!!!!


Huh? How can you not find dubias? No offense, but a simple google search brings up scores of options, most of which ship to anywhere in your country. 

By the way, crickets usually only smell when you open the container and get a waft of crickety-cricket crap. Yum!

I also second, third, and quadruple the various people saying that you shouldn't have gotten ("rescued") a reptile, without having the capacity to take care of it properly.


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

HOTTOASTcass said:


> Hi , I haven't read all 3-4 pages of this post just the first one
> I won't call you weak when I got my bearded dragon I was beside my self with crickets and locus I even had a cricket jump at me and I freaked out I was terrible my sister screams when I get the locus out and don't even go there with worms ..... Fast forward time I now happily breed super worms max worms meal worms and coin crickets
> I once even found a super worm that was not big like the others was small and looked half dead so I even made it its own set up fed it watered it named it shrimp I'm not a veggie I enjoy meat etc but I didn't have the heart to feed it off eventually after a month it did die of natural causes (aka my cat)
> But once u get into it you realise actually not so bad I use tongs for my food I can't touch them yet lol but I do touch and pick up wax worms when I give them as treats it does get better at first it like "omg I'm a murderer " I once had to cut a super in half to feed a very poorly dragon to encourage his eating it was really sad for me but my dragon didn't die I helped it back with them worms
> ...


Thanks. I will probably be buying crickets. Poor shrimp.

Well thanks I will post a pic of him enjoying his crickets when we get them.

Thanks and have a good day!

Thanks!!!!!


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## Beardeddragonowner0 (Jun 19, 2015)

Bedtime for me. Thanks guys and keep posting on this thread, I like hearing from you guys. Bye!!!!!


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

if there's one food that could be used to replace live insects its probably repashy's grub pie (http://www.repashy.co.uk/), from the videos iv seen it in, from shinosaurs to beardys leos and ackies etc it must just stink of something a lizard deems "tasty" because its taken quickly after being licked, no quick movement to simulate live (which would be essentially tricking them), which is in repashys favor i think.

i do say this with respect but i have found lizard keepers much more reluctant to try new things inc diets than snake keepers, the whole "chams in mesh only" mindset, so if u choose to try this be prepared to be criticized (by people who haven't tried it mostly)

rgds and the best of health to u and ur animals : victory:
ed


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

loxocemus said:


> if there's one food that could be used to replace live insects its probably repashy's grub pie (Repashy Super Foods : Crested Gecko Diet | Multivitamins & Calcium for reptiles), from the videos iv seen it in, from shinosaurs to beardys leos and ackies etc it must just stink of something a lizard deems "tasty" because its taken quickly after being licked, no quick movement to simulate live (which would be essentially tricking them), which is in repashys favor i think.


Well to be fair, the problem with this stuff (I'll admit it right away, haven't tried it) isn't how much the animal likes it. The problem is that it doesn't move, so the animal can't express it's hunting/foraging behavior. Live feeding is a very good form of enrichment and provides some stimuli in the (pretty) constant captive environment. Hunting/foraging is a big part of natural behavior that can be rather simply expressed in captivity. I can't think of a reason why you would deny a animal this. I don't doubt that it's fine product, but it's simply not the best product out there right now. It might provide for an animal's nutritional needs, but lacks in fulfilling the animal***8217;s psychological needs. 



loxocemus said:


> i do say this with respect but i have found lizard keepers much more reluctant to try new things inc diets than snake keepers, the whole "chams in mesh only" mindset, so if u choose to try this be prepared to be criticized (by people who haven't tried it mostly)
> 
> rgds and the best of health to u and ur animals
> ed


I'm sorry that you feel that way. I've not observed this difference between lizard and snake keepers, nor do I think there is a very notable difference between people who keep either snakes or lizards. The only exception I know of is the use of UV bulbs. It's widely used/recommended under lizards keepers. While UV light has notable effects on snakes (based on scientific research on blood), it hasn't become as widely used/recommended. But I don***8217;t think this trend is related to an affinity to either keeping snakes or lizards.

Good luck


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

i don't see the difference in a lizard not running after a cricket and a snake not slithering after a mouse, except in lizards its described as a psychological need, which it isn't, its a biological need, a function, its hungry, chase cricket, catch cricket, not hungry, need satisfied. 

the vast majority of cb snakes eat non live prey and they are not seen as psychologically deprived in this area, why should lizards be any different...

lizards do seem to be anthropromorphised more than snakes, they are more animate than a unblinking seemingly emotionless snake and this invites such reasoning i think.

ps i have nothing against crickets dubia etc as a diet but i see no reason why modern premixed diets should be criticized for not filling a need that frankly live doesn't either. if u are of the belief that live feeding is their only captive joy, then u need to rethink ur husbandry because somethings wrong.

cresteds obviously have been raised for a few gens now on solely artificial diets, these animals don't seem psychologically wanting compared to bug feeders.......

rgds
ed



Creed said:


> Well to be fair, the problem with this stuff (I'll admit it right away, haven't tried it) isn't how much the animal likes it. The problem is that it doesn't move, so the animal can't express it's hunting/foraging behavior. Live feeding is a very good form of enrichment and provides some stimuli in the (pretty) constant captive environment. Hunting/foraging is a big part of natural behavior that can be rather simply expressed in captivity. I can't think of a reason why you would deny a animal this. I don't doubt that it's fine product, but it's simply not the best product out there right now. It might provide for an animal's nutritional needs, but lacks in fulfilling the animal***8217;s psychological needs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

loxocemus said:


> i don't see the difference in a lizard not running after a cricket and a snake not slithering after a mouse, except in lizards its described as a psychological need, which it isn't, its a biological need, a function, its hungry, chase cricket, catch cricket, not hungry, need satisfied.
> 
> the vast majority of cb snakes eat non live prey and they are not seen as psychologically deprived in this area, why should lizards be any different...
> 
> ...



I have hundreds of criticisms, and I do have to note this quite clearly. 
I have confronted the manufactuers of some of these brands on here and outlined my concerns many times, never, not once, have they ever responded to counter argument, or present any response to the criticisms, if these diets really are meeting the aims and needs of the animals they claim too be, they need to be able to back it up with some (form of evidence) some form of testing wouldn't you agree? 

Lizards in general have higher metabolisms than some snakes, eat more frequently, are more oppurtunistic, and have higher metabolic needs, physilogically, biologically, and anatomically, have you ever seen a lizard mentally decline? 

I have, and once they hit that state, no vet, or expertise, will save them.
Almost like depression in people. 
Very real. 

I could take it a step further and say there mental health is more important than any other aspect of there care, but it comes down to a philosphical and impossible debate, so before we end up there.... 

Animals who have been kept in sterile conditioned boxes for years, when transferd into enriched enviroments, there are notable differences in the behaviorial sequencing, communication displays, and physiological adaptions. 

In a philosphical sense, you could say the eyes are the windows to a soul, you see those eyes brighten and sparkle, when offerd kindness for the first time. 

Give the animal the choice, (dead insects) (live insects) which do you think it will prefer, there are all kinds of chemical and hormonal reactions going on in that body, we don't fully yet understand, to make a claim (that these diets are complete) when nutrition even now isn't fully under-stood, (yet) trials conducted on individual scales do demonstrate conflicting results) and medical vets report animals systematically crashing, and health results only ever being demonstrated to be poor.

Demands an answer I would say? 
All in favour, say aye :2thumb:


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

thats a lot of behavior, conditions to put on the jump of a cricket.

and ur assuming that live bugs are chemical pesticide contaminate free, they are what they eat afterall, inc all the unknowns, a gel has all of its ingredients for all to see.

some form of evidence?, multi generational healthy cresteds is a good start no?

the mental decline of an animal is not caused by a crickets jump, but by a very poor keeper, if this poor keeper had used crickets instead of a gel the animals fate would be the same, the cricket or gel is not the key to an animals sanity

u assume a cricket gutted with tesco veg is a mirror to a wild prey and a gel is not.

a manufacturers lack of response to a random email(s)means a poor dietary product?

an animals housing has no bearing on whether live or gel is used, u cant tie prepared foods to housing choice, thats just silly


the choice of using a prepared meal somehow makes a keeper an advocate of poor housing and neglect?


rgds
ed

ps if all iguana keepers had ur passion love and care towards their animals then igs wouldnt be one of our hobbys most historically abused and neglected species.





Salazare Slytherin said:


> I have hundreds of criticisms, and I do have to note this quite clearly.
> I have confronted the manufactuers of some of these brands on here and outlined my concerns many times, never, not once, have they ever responded to counter argument, or present any response to the criticisms, if these diets really are meeting the aims and needs of the animals they claim too be, they need to be able to back it up with some (form of evidence) some form of testing wouldn't you agree?
> 
> Lizards in general have higher metabolisms than some snakes, eat more frequently, are more oppurtunistic, and have higher metabolic needs, physilogically, biologically, and anatomically, have you ever seen a lizard mentally decline?
> ...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

loxocemus said:


> thats a lot of behavior, conditions to put on the jump of a cricket.
> 
> and ur assuming that live bugs are chemical pesticide contaminate free, they are what they eat afterall, inc all the unknowns, a gel has all of its ingredients for all to see.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't call that evidence at all, animals I know very well, (iguanas) some specimens can live to be 20 being fed cat food, doesn't mean its healthy for them, countless generations is only one argument to be considerd, but I think its equally important to look at the figures of not so succesful outcomes (and unfortunately) a lot of people aren't prepared to talk about these openly, but they do happen, and more than some people would care to admit. 

So nope that isn't evidence of there nutritional ongoings.

More interestingly, some of these complete formulas throw big convincing stickers at them shouting "vet approved" yet, you never hear which vets approved them, or there experience with the species in question, or the studies they themselves conducted to form conclusions, these diets have far more question marks than answers, and whether you like it or not, that argument, is only one tiny spec of dust, to what comprehends with actual supported lab evidence to backup the claims. 


If I was to list the concerns I have with these diets, I would be here for days, but as you say, the ingridients are on those formulas, maybe you should research them, and compare them with the samples of nutritional information taken from wild specimens. 

I am not simply saying stop feeding them, but they are and should be questioned when making claims like that, and these manufactuers aren't considering them. 

Lets look at the crested gecko diet formulated by Alen Repashy. 
Allen, made that diet for his own geckos years and years ago based on his own understanding (as most keepers find there ways) it was actually the company T-rex that approached him and asked if they could use it, and it was the company T-rex, that threw these "complete labels at them" 

Yet, ultimately, not justifiably complete at all it seems. 

I will respectfully have to disagree with every point you just made, but I wanted to pick up on that highlighted one more than the others. 
I assume nothing, I know


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

u have nothing but anecdotal-i dont think gels are good points, thats not a reason to make a choice.

if healthy multigens of a species is not evidence that a diet works isn't adequate evidence, then evidence isn't the issue, point of view is.

evidence of other poor diet outcomes are not repashys problem, just as arcadias not at fault for cheap chinese tubes.


should one question a prepared diet absolutely, should one question ur livefoods sources claim that they use only the best foods absolutely.

again, a point of view or dislike is not evidence of a poor diet, results are, and im not talking catfood to igs, lettuce to torts or anything else, u cant use these arguments in response to do beardies need bugs, its not relevant in the slightest.

rgds
ed




Salazare Slytherin said:


> I wouldn't call that evidence at all, animals I know very well, (iguanas) some specimens can live to be 20 being fed cat food, doesn't mean its healthy for them, countless generations is only one argument to be considerd, but I think its equally important to look at the figures of not so succesful outcomes (and unfortunately) a lot of people aren't prepared to talk about these openly, but they do happen, and more than some people would care to admit.
> 
> So nope that isn't evidence of there nutritional ongoings.
> 
> ...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

loxocemus said:


> u have nothing but anecdotal-i dont think gels are good points, thats not a reason to make a choice.
> 
> if healthy multigens of a species is not evidence that a diet works isn't adequate evidence, then evidence isn't the issue, point of view is.
> 
> ...


I think your trying to put words into my mouth through my anologies to reference. 
Highly relevent, for many reasons, (we are talking not just nutritional input, but mental health and stimuli) depriving an animal of normal and perfectly natural hunting behaviors, is completely relevent, and the added factor of being able to pump said animals up with proper nutrition, is an equally important factor to long term health. 

It genuinely isn't "point of view" these are well known facts.

Here is another anology I would try to present. 

Nutrition even now, at this very moment, isn't a topic which is fully understood, (new things are discovered) in food items every single day, so the fresh foods your gut loading insects up with, are probably yielding more health results than is currently relised or known. (anti cancer properties, anti fungal properties, "oh this food is a natural antibiotic" 

Never once, in the history of reptile synthetic formulation diets, have these things, demonstrated through lab studies, they carry, any health or healing benefits, but in-fact, actually yeild, poor, or poorer results, when compared with more seasoned (dietry offerings) bugs one season, nectars and fruits the next, and so on, it is quite simple for me, trying to "recreate something" for convience, without having the understanding of what there animals nutritional needs are, (and lets face it) most owners don't even know how to properly calculate out ca ratios, let alone, moisture and fiber, or fat and protein, is all that is wrong with the ignorance in animal nutrition, I don't understand why people get so defensive on these things really, just look at the evidence your telling me to look at from another perspective. 

These aren't foods you want to be feeding without some evidence IMO, and countless generations is neither a sign of happiness or help, in my rescue experience, I have seen pleanty of ill animals still try to reproduce, in a last ditch effort to pass on genes mostly, not because they are healthy, or thriving, that's just survival, something that has been genetically programmed into them since 130 million years ago, a few geneations in captivity, isn't evidence that these diets are good  

That isn't "view point" 
That's a simple fact, and you wont have to look far to find it. 

Anyways, bed time for me. 
Nice debate. 
Take care folks. 
: victory:


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

again nothing but vague anecdotal points, these lab tests were they on repashy, did they conclude not fit for purpose, if not then they are not repashys problem nor should they reflect on their products

vs

multiple generations of a species on a prepared meal that produces healthy adults that produce healthy neonates.

my side of the arguments is results specific to repashy products, ur side is everything else's failure in the hobby is evidence against repashy. 


if so little is known of nutrition how do u know ur methods work? because u see the results in ur animals, how does repashy know the same? because he see's it in his animals. i fail to see the see difference other than point of view which is no reason at all against repashy.

again, with respect, thinking prepared meals are bad because other products failed is not evidence repashy is bad. is it not a reason to make a choice, its close mindedness.

rgds
ed






Salazare Slytherin said:


> I think your trying to put words into my mouth through my anologies to reference.
> 
> It genuinely isn't "point of view" these are well known facts.
> 
> ...


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

ps this type of vague reasoning was displayed brilliantly by arcadia on his facebook page recently.

he posted a video of a poor leo raised on a crappy diet as evidence, ie THIS is why u need our products, THIS is what happens without it, of course he didn't respond to keepers pointing out diet was the issue.

of course in his case it was merely a monetary thing, shift some units based on nothing but peoples willingness to not question and be led annecdotally by the nose.

rgds
ed


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

loxocemus said:


> again nothing but vague anecdotal points, these lab tests were they on repashy, did they conclude not fit for purpose, if not then they are not repashys problem nor should they reflect on their products
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Have you read any of Allens conversations on here?
If you haven't, I would strongly suggest that you do, because I neither comdemn or praise his diets, I am highlighting, his diets are questionable to the claims he makes. 

The reason I know my stratergies work, is because most nutritionists agree on certain specific components to the ratios I feed, calculate, and work out, through dietry offerings, based on the evidence they have actually conducted in a lab. 

I also know mine are good enough for the animals, through blood work, analysis, which will guide me on areas I am going right, and areas I could work towards improving on. 

To pick up on one point, I don't speak for everything else in the hobby, I have seen crested geckos fall victim to metabolic bone diseases with nothing but being fed these diets, one of mine was one of them knowing what I know about other dry synthetic formulas, it raises more question marks for me. 

And just keep in mind, not all forms of metabolic bone disease, are present visually, but are infact, anything linked to nutritional over-or under provisions or ability's to utalise these diets, so yes, I have questions, and interestingly, these manufactuers, aren't answering them, or PROVING, there diets actually work to meet there claims.

To claim something is complete, is entirely nonsense, because nothing is complete. :lol2:
Sadly for my gecko he died, but, (through common thought) and pleanty of threads on here (on this very forum) evidence also works against these diets being complete too. 

So who knows, maybe I am wrong with what I am doing, but at least it is validated with lab evidence and experience.


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

im sorry but again on repashys side multi gens of perfectly healthy cresteds, inc many by uk breeders, and they are what exactly, just lucky?

on urs, a gecko that failed and some you know of.

its that simple, dislike is not evidence, neither are some dead geckos compared to the rest of the captive crested population, id say a large majority of which are maintained solely on meal powders.

allen repashy can claim they make ur cresteds eyes sparkle it doesn't matter, what matters is the end result of using the diet, and that result is a very very large population of cb cresteds.

again dislike is not evidence to say to someone else dont use this, u say ask people who have large scale hands on use of it, thats evidence, thats logic, anything else and ur just u trying to push ur opinion based on nothing.

rgds
ed





Salazare Slytherin said:


> Have you read any of Allens conversations on here?
> If you haven't, I would strongly suggest that you do, because I neither comdemn or praise his diets, I am highlighting, his diets are questionable to the claims he makes.
> 
> The reason I know my stratergies work, is because most nutritionists agree on certain specific components to the ratios I feed, calculate, and work out, through dietry offerings, based on the evidence they have actually conducted in a lab.
> ...


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

loxocemus said:


> im sorry but again on repashys side multi gens of perfectly healthy cresteds, inc many by uk breeders, and they are what exactly, just lucky?
> 
> on urs, a gecko that failed and some you know of.
> 
> ...


It isn't *My* opinion Ed, it is a fact that these diets, are only working entirely on trial and error, based on a handful of decades, Allen has no evidence his diets are complete, he admits that himself. 

I think you need to go and speak to him.

As with all brands of synthetic formulas, some will have successes, some will have failures, but the big question still remains if they are good for the animals, and that isn't a question any of us can answer, prove out, (no matter how much we think) our animals are well cared for, synthetic diets, just don't beat the real thing.


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

one could say and can say the same of every other diet ever fed.

and on that point i shall bid you goodnight.

rgds
ed



Salazare Slytherin said:


> It isn't *My* opinion Ed, it is a fact that these diets, are only working entirely on trial and error, based on a handful of decades, Allen has no evidence his diets are complete, he admits that himself.
> 
> I think you need to go and speak to him.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

loxocemus said:


> one could say and can say the same of every other diet ever fed.
> 
> and on that point i shall bid you goodnight.
> 
> ...


You actually could  

But some yeild better health results than others. 
Yes it is my bed time too.


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

I dont think i need to add anything really. Salazare has it pretty much covered....
Except that i think the thread has gone off course... i dont think you can compare a crested geckos oneed to hunt with a lizard such as a beardie.
How would you like to spend all day shut in a box room with nothing to do and have an action as simple as going to get food taken away from you because someone wants to put it on a plate in front of you. 

Ok its a bad example but why would you choose to take away one of the main excercises and enrichment activities that you can offer your lizard. Wouldnt you want to offer them every enrichment you can in captivity ?

Lizards are intelligent and active creatures. To not offer them a chance to hunt is bordering of cruelty imo. And thats without dipping back into the nutritional arguement. Surely you arent suggesting that pre packaged long life foods are somehow equal in nutrition to fresh gutloaded live food? Even if supplements made up the difference the fresh option would still be a healthier option.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I think, animal nutrition geared towards more natural wild replication, either by growing, or breeding, will be the next big step in captive care.  

I can't speak for every other owner, but I try to re-create seasonal offerings for my own guys, iguanas (they are seeing 120 different foods) split out over the course of a year, around 70% of that offering in the summer comes from actual wild food sources they would naturally eat, the remaining 30% becomes captive improvisation based on limited data and understanding, but I try to mimic it as best as I can. 

Geckos (one season they get nectar and fruits) (one season they get well gutloaded bugs) and if I have some improvised synthetic, it might get rotated in for a bit more variety, and completeness, as an improvisational supplemental food source. 


I think with time (and with a mass change of thinking) this is acheivable) 
I have seen huge differences in animals being switched around, heck I have changed the ways I have done things loads of times, based on more understandings as I grow with my knowledge, it takes a very special kind of ignorance IMO, to never look at things, and say, (I wont do better than what I currently am, because (everything looks good) 

If we never changed the ways we done things, or took these risks, much of what we know today would be none existent, in the medical, scientific, and hobbyist communities. 

More people are at the very least using standard substrates these days with more understanding, that's definitely something, there is a long way to go, but I do know in my experience, 90% of owners (as seen by the many threads on here giving advice) and the many help threads that follow by the same people shouting for help some months after, that there animals, aren't being fed correctly, or have the ability in the enviroment to make use of that diet. 


Oh lettuce carries no nutrition. 
If I hear that one again, I am going to spontenously combust. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

Why is live food better than non live (prepared) food.

I haven't read all the comments but it can all boil down to a simple point. Movement.

Livefood moves and encourages the lizard to display natural hunting and foraging behaviours.
The arguement of snakes being fed prefilled mice is moot. Snakes are ambush predators, they await prey to come within reach and strike in a split second. They then eat and lay in wait again as they digest food.

Lizards (in general) hunt and chase their prey leading to increased exercise, mental and physical stimulation.


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