# lush



## Dayle (Jan 18, 2010)

:censor::censor: at lush have written a dispicable article about how all reptile keepers are cruel and are trying to ban us keeping them as pets

because apprently reptiles are scared of glass

I have emailed the head guy and told him how much this article could hit proper reptile enthusiasts hard 

and i also said there are people who cant even look after hamsters properly why not attack them?

ill type out a couple of lines to give you the jist but please email this guy

[email protected]

and tell him why its so wrong!


"breeding reptiles in captivity for the pet trade causes suffering on a huge scale. according to the arpa commercial reptile breeding operations in the uk routinely opererate outside of the law, are unlicensed and uninspected, and conditions are invairably inhuman."


"There is very little reliable information available on basic reptile care."

"to make matters worse, pet shops set a bad example to customers. for example, reptiles should never be kept in glass tanks. in the wild , reptiles dont encounter glass boundries and never adapt to cope with them"


in fairness the article is mostly against wild caught animals being imported which i think is fine but they dont explain the differneces bettween wc and cb and anyone who dosnt know about reptiles will just tar us all with the same brush!


rant over


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## nickleicester (Mar 29, 2010)

is this a online article? if so could u post the link please?
i think this sort of thing could do the hobby alot of damage :devil:


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## Pauline (Aug 3, 2006)

Have you got a link to the article itself?


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## Dayle (Jan 18, 2010)

its not online i dont think its in a printed news paper they make ill have a look and see if i can find it


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## Dayle (Jan 18, 2010)

ill scan it later when im home


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

again with the misinformation. people obviously have too much time on their hands...and of course "sensational" stories about stuff that "normal" people think is odd always sells.
honestly once i've taken over the world, the press and most animal rights groups will be made to SUFFER.:devil:
i doubt they'll be able to do anything to actually hurt the hobby as this is just the anti's being stupid as usual. the government so far hasn't listened to them, at least over here...to my knowledge.
we all do our bit though, to educate people we come across, i'm sure. most people i have spoken to on the subject are at least slightly better informed now!


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

where do they come up with this :censor:
Fish dont come come across glass in the wild, so why dont they have a moan at fish keepers, oh thats right silly me, fish keepers are not a minority group that keep animals ignorant people are scared of and are easy to attack.


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

Lush who???

I'd be very interested in this also.

Thanks

HMHB


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## Dayle (Jan 18, 2010)

50%man50%biscuit said:


> Lush who???
> 
> I'd be very interested in this also.
> 
> ...


Lush are a all natural cosmetic company like the body shop but its all home made stuffs they have released a new chameleon soap saying all procedes will goto the APA (animal protection agency) to stop the import and captive breeding of reptiles as and i quote "Breeding reptiles in captivity for the pet rrade causes suffering on a huge scale, according to the APA commercial breeding operations in the UK routinely opperate outside of the law"


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks for the update, I was getting confused as to what expertise or knowledge Lush had about the reptile industry in this country, considering the only Lush I could find were a cosmetics company..... 

They do have an online forum, perhaps we could all sign up and flood their forum with constructive, and I do mean constructive, comments regarding our hobby/industry.

HMHB


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## nickleicester (Mar 29, 2010)

50%man50%biscuit said:


> Thanks for the update, I was getting confused as to what expertise or knowledge Lush had about the reptile industry in this country, considering the only Lush I could find were a cosmetics company.....
> 
> They do have an online forum, perhaps we could all sign up and flood their forum with constructive, and I do mean constructive, comments regarding our hobby/industry.
> 
> HMHB


top idear but i would like to read the article before i go in with guns blazing 
:lol2:


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## Buda87 (May 18, 2010)

nickleicester said:


> top idear but i would like to read the article before i go in with guns blazing
> :lol2:


agreed! i am so shocked by this. i regulary use lush products and love all the eco s**t but what the hell do they think they are doing medling with the reptile community!!! :devil: 

josh


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

nickleicester said:


> top idear but i would like to read the article before i go in with guns blazing
> :lol2:


Hence the reason for saying "constructive comments" I think if we pull together and approach this in a professional and knowledgeable manner we will get further, and win people over rather than making enemies. There are too many poorly informed people out there already, and alienating them makes matters worse not better. I have submitted an application to the forum, anyone else interested?

HMHB


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## MagicSqueak (Apr 9, 2010)

50%man50%biscuit said:


> Hence the reason for saying "constructive comments" I think if we pull together and approach this in a professional and knowledgeable manner we will get further, and win people over rather than making enemies. There are too many poorly informed people out there already, and alienating them makes matters worse not better. I have submitted an application to the forum, anyone else interested?
> 
> HMHB


I'd be interested...i need to read the article though...where can I find it? 

Thanks for the heads up Mr. Half Man Half Biscuit


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## storm (Jul 23, 2007)

lush cosmetics frequently have a stall up in our canteen at work... i may now have to pay them a visit and grill them on what they think and educate them some x


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## nickleicester (Mar 29, 2010)

i havent been able to find the text in question online, so i hav sent a polite request to steve asking for a copy. 
i will put it up if i get it : victory:


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## JoeR (Dec 24, 2009)

What a load of BS why don't they go attack the meat industry? i mean have any of you seen the 'Meet your Meat' video on youtube? Why do they ALL go for the Reptile Community?


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## medusa0373 (Mar 18, 2008)

I've just looked through the Spring Lush Times (I am also a fan) and I have to say I can't see anything in there about reptiles??? Or a new chameleon soap?? and I'm sure I have the up to date Lush Times as I only picked it up last week! *is puzzled*


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## Katkatkat (Mar 18, 2010)

medusa0373 said:


> I've just looked through the Spring Lush Times (I am also a fan) and I have to say I can't see anything in there about reptiles??? Or a new chameleon soap?? and I'm sure I have the up to date Lush Times as I only picked it up last week! *is puzzled*


I believe the summer version came out yesterday or today. I assume the article is in this, it's not available online as far as I'm aware but planning on picking up a copy tomorrow so if no one's been able to get it online before then I'll type it up in the afternoon (assuming it is Lush Times that its in)


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## medusa0373 (Mar 18, 2008)

Katkatkat said:


> I believe the summer version came out yesterday or today. I assume the article is in this, it's not available online as far as I'm aware but planning on picking up a copy tomorrow so if no one's been able to get it online before then I'll type it up in the afternoon (assuming it is Lush Times that its in)


I've just been in "off topic" and there's a thread in there about it, with the text posted up as pictures.

I think it was in the Lush Times _before_ the Spring edition, as I do remember seeing a picture of a chameleon in it but I didn't read the article as was too interested in the soap and stuff!!!


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## bradhadair (Jun 18, 2009)

*Lush Times EXACT article*

*I'M A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE!

The Animal Protection Agency (APA) is the only European organisation solely focused on ceasing the trade in wild animals as pets. Founded in 2004, APA regularly contributes to the media; conducts scientific studies; provides advice to local and national Government; and offers a variety of educational resources, from leaflets to film.

CAPTURING REPTILES FROM THE WILD FOR HE PET TRADE IS SADLY STILL LEGAL FOR MOST SPECIES.

*Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU. These figures only show recorded trade; the true scale is actually much larger and is driving many species towards extinction.

The capture and transportation process is inherently crude and brutal. Chameleons, for instance, can suffer broken bones whilst being collected from the wild, either from rough handling or from the blow they receive when knocked from the branches to the ground. These frightened animals, who are usually solitary for most of the time, hiss and bite each other when packaged together in batches, which cause further injury and stress. The chameleons, already suffering from shock, can then endure long periods of dehydration and unsuitable temperatures whilst being transported the lond distance to the wholesaler.

*Those animals that die en route are simply factored in by the dealer as 'expected losses'.

*Most wild-caught reptiles die within their first year of captivity. Breeding reptiles in captivity for the pet trade causes suffering on a huge scale. According to the Animal Protection Agency, commercial reptile-breeding operations in the UK routinely operate outside of the law, are unlicensed and uninspected, and conditions are invariably inhumane.

The rise in popularity of reptiles as pets is currently due in part to the way they are marketed. For instance, some dealers readily claim that reptiles are easier to keep than dogs! Starter-kits are often sold alongside newly purchased animals. For these enormously complex animals; 'off-the-shelf' kits are nothing more than short-term life support systems and can be lethal in the long term.

There is very little reliable information available on basic reptile care. Guidance that can be found on a lot of websites and in care-sheets and guide books can be misleading, false, and even dangerous. For some species, good quality information is available but tends to be buried in scientific texts and is largely inaccessible to the general public. To make matters worse, pet shops set a bad example to customers. For example, reptiles should never be kept in glass tanks. In the wild, reptiles don't encounter glass boundaries and never adapt to cope with them. Repeatedly trying to escape can cause facial injuries and also long-term and consistent stress.

Lush is helping the Animal Protection Agency to drive home the message that reptiles are wild animals, not pets. APA is shortly to launch an education programme through schools, which includes a film about exotic pet keeping, funded by Lush.

*WHAT YOU CAN DO
*Please join the Animal Protection Agency, the only organisation in Europe focused on campaigning against the exotic pet trade. Find out more about how to support their campaigns at Animal Protection Agency

*Lush are supporting the APA in a number of ways. We really want to raise awareness about the serious issues that affect chamleons when they are kept as pets. So, please come along to one of our children's parties, which will be taking place in all our shops during the first week of August.

The party will include arts and crafts as well as a scavenger hunt and an opportunity to find out more about these creatures. Bring your friends and children along to these fun packed parties to find out how you can help the chameleons from being treated so badly.

Lush will also be handing out leaflets, which will live at the till points, so do grab one! Please come along to our events and visit our shops to collect your leaflet and buy a chameleon bath bomb to show your support, not only the APA, but for individual chameleons in need of our help.

lush will donate all the proceeds (minus VAT) for the Chameleon Ballistic to the APA for the month of August.

*Inspired by the chameleon's unique abilities, our new colour-changing Chameleon Bath Ballistic will magically turn the water in your tub from green to pink to purple to blue.

Proceeds from sales of the new Chameleon Bath Ballistic will help to fund further projects, including eradicating reptile markets in the UK, producing an important new report on parrot welfare, and lobbying the government for greater protection of exotic animals in the pet trade. So while you lay back, luxuriate, and enjoy the colour show, you can also feel pretty proud of yourself for doing something to protect chameleons and all reptile-kind!


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## bradhadair (Jun 18, 2009)

^^^^^

Exact article from Lush Times... Not edited or changed in anyway by me


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## snakeboy101 (Jul 3, 2006)

Dumbass extremists are completely clueless and uninformed? HOLY CRAP ALERT THE PRESS!


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## Ricko_78 (Apr 28, 2010)

What a load of tosh!!!!!!!!!!!

Stick to soap and we will stick to reptiles:whip:

I would like them to visit me and tell me what is wrong with my Snakes living arrangements ? For the record Reptiles are easy to look after than dogs IMO, I have a Labrador that is a lot more demanding then my Snakes.

Lets hope common sense prevails:devil:


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## Buda87 (May 18, 2010)

Email sent to lush head office
here it is if you can be arsed to read it lol 


Hi my names josh harris. *

I am a devoted lush customer but having read a recent article, am thoroughly dissapointed in the company and what they are trying to achieve!
The article in question is regarding the chamelon bath bomb and lush joining forces with the APA.*
Firstly I would like to know where you get your information from and if your reporters as such are properly educated on the reptile indusry and the general keeping of reptiles and not just writing what they hear from the APA.*
There is an overload of information about pretty much every reptile you can think of that is kept as a pet, on the Internet, books, word of mouth, magazines and much more. They might say slightly different things and give different advise but this is all down to peoples own personal experiances. As are dogs and many other pets, each reptile is different and requires different needs, even of the same species. You can have two of the exact same snakes for example, both having completely different needs I.e temperatures, food supply, habitat etc. Hence the different info on care sheets and so on.*
Yes reptiles are wild animals but aren't dogs wild too? And cats? Mankind wasn't created with a pet dog or cat just as it wasn't with reptiles and any other named pets. They adapt. And as for reptiles being afraid of glass well!! Yes the rubbing of faces and the attempts to escape happens but if you have any pet and you open your front door it's not going to decide to stay is it! A house is equal to a vivarium or tank for an animal is it not?
I am well aware of the goings on of wild caught reptiles and other animals and am against it but just because it happens in reptiles doesn't mean that you have to completely deplete the hobby and enjoyment of herpetoculture.*
I believe what you are trying to do to people who enjoy keeping reptiles is going into the extremes. 99.9% of the reptile community love and care for what we have. They are our dog. They are our cat. Just because they aren't in some cases accepted as much as the "common" pet doesn't mean you have seek such drastic measures.
Yes raise money for animals in need. Yes raise money to help the APA and any other animal care related charity but don't ruin it for the vast majority of people who enjoy and care for their pets.*
***


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## nickleicester (Mar 29, 2010)

that is very misleading and could make alot of people hate us for keeping reptiles.
i cant rely comment on the part about wild caught snakes, but i doubt its as bad as they make it sound in britan.





Buda87 said:


> Email sent to lush head office
> here it is if you can be arsed to read it lol
> 
> 
> ...


nice one :no1:

IF they reply, make sure u put it up :bash:


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## Buda87 (May 18, 2010)

Yeh I will do:2thumb:


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

There are so many points that could be made about the Lush article, some of them valid such as the WC trade being cruel and often damaging to the animals collected, this is the responsibility of the people purchasing/importing the animals, however there are a few that I take exception to one of which is:



> APA is shortly to launch an education programme through schools, which includes a film about exotic pet keeping, funded by Lush.


Really???!! An education programme is it? Not biased in any way, well informed accurate and gathered from years of experience and knowledge of the reptile keeping industry, that I doubt very much. 

I will be writing to the Secretary of State for Education to enquire as to whether this is government sanctioned and to ask whether Lush is allowed to represent commercial interests to children. I think they might just have something to say about this especially if something that is educational is actually politically motivated, there are rules about these things dontchaknow :bash:

Also let us not get too worked up about Lush donating funds to APA, they are only doing it for the month of August so they are not exactly overly committed to the idea or else they would be doing so for longer.

Well it's too early in the day to be picking apart this crap, but I really appreciate the article transcribe and will pick it apart as my leisure.

HMHB


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Here's the letter I sent:



> Hello
> 
> I used to be a very happy customer of Lush, and I loved the Demon in the Dark soap.
> 
> ...


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## 50%man50%biscuit (Mar 17, 2009)

Outstanding letter Ssthisto :no1:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Are the APA anything like PETA then? Eg. deluded idiots?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

LisaLQ said:


> Are the APA anything like PETA then? Eg. deluded idiots?


Pretty much. Animal *rights* organisations generally are, because they are willing to ignore the well-being of an individual animal for the sake of an ideal rather than trying to make things better for each individual animal.


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## Ricko_78 (Apr 28, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Here's the letter I sent:


Very informative letter I hope the people concerned take note.:2thumb:


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## April Taylor (Nov 25, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Here's the letter I sent:


Absolutly spot on.


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## snakeboy101 (Jul 3, 2006)

I bet my testicles they won't change/retract or listen to anything that was written.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, they are unlikely to be able to change or retract anything... but if I write them a well reasoned letter explaining WHY they have lost a customer (and so does everyone else who keeps reptiles) they may reconsider this sort of campaign in the future.


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

well they've just lost several customers here, quite a few of my friends and family buy from them. won't be doing anymore.
i've sent an email (which i sent before copying it here :whip which i feel was very polite, and i kept my cool. though i doubt they'll reply. oh well :lol2:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Well, they are unlikely to be able to change or retract anything... but if I write them a well reasoned letter explaining WHY they have lost a customer (and so does everyone else who keeps reptiles) they may reconsider this sort of campaign in the future.


Talking of Chris Newman, has anyone contacted him? Looking at the case against them regarding the hunting, I feel a number of the points i that article could be called into question...

the one that really hurt me was "and conditions are invariably inhumane" that is a hugely offensive statement...

Love the letter Ssthisto..I'll attempt something similiar.

Cheers


Andy


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## stuckmojo (Jun 7, 2010)

corpselight said:


> again with the misinformation. people obviously have too much time on their hands...and of course "sensational" stories about stuff that "normal" people think is odd always sells.
> honestly once i've taken over the world, the press and most animal rights groups will be made to SUFFER.:devil:
> i doubt they'll be able to do anything to actually hurt the hobby as this is just the anti's being stupid as usual. the government so far hasn't listened to them, at least over here...to my knowledge.
> we all do our bit though, to educate people we come across, i'm sure. most people i have spoken to on the subject are at least slightly better informed now!


Completely off topic, but are you a fan of Eternal Darkness by any chance????...)


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## *jax* (Oct 9, 2009)

stuckmojo said:


> Completely off topic, but are you a fan of Eternal Darkness by any chance????...)


haha what was the first clue:blush:
one of the best games ever!:blush:

was great to read such thoughtful replies to the article on here. the best way to counter misinformation is proper information...but of course in this case the more dramatic story is what they've published and what self-righteous money grubbing morons like the APA and IAR claim...your average person probably would take all that on board and ignore the "boring" truth.
another interesting point to make i think would be that hog island boas and i think Trinidad boas are either critically endangered or extinct due to environmental factors and may only exist protected in captivity,where attempts are made to breed them and keep them going!...the real enemy as usual is habitat destruction!:bash:
also further points about Candoia could be made, how they are killed on sight often in the wild because of their resemblance to vipers...how in captivity they are protected from these dangers and again are bred...


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## *jax* (Oct 9, 2009)

*jax* said:


> haha what was the first clue:blush:
> one of the best games ever!:blush:
> 
> was great to read such thoughtful replies to the article on here. the best way to counter misinformation is proper information...but of course in this case the more dramatic story is what they've published and what self-righteous money grubbing morons like the APA and IAR claim...your average person probably would take all that on board and ignore the "boring" truth.
> ...


whoops i realised i posted using my girlfriend's account:blush:
-corpselight


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I have just sent the guy this link, I think it sums up most of our thoughts at the moment

Presentation – The UK Reptile Trade - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum


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## nickleicester (Mar 29, 2010)

has anybody had any replys yet cuz i havent :devil:


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I might contact him and say...
"You know... you are right, the reptile trade is wrong and should be made illegal. So what should you do about it? You cannot return the animals to their origins as that would be expensive and would kill them. So how do you dispose of 4 million UK pet reptiles? Kill them and incinerate them... that's the best solution. And when you put then n big incinerators, you can all it a victory against the cruel reptile pet industry... complete with a banner above the incinerators saying "Bought to you in association with Lush Beauty Products"

Happy Now?


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## nickleicester (Mar 29, 2010)

David L said:


> I might contact him and say...
> "You know... you are right, the reptile trade is wrong and should be made illegal. So what should you do about it? You cannot return the animals to their origins as that would be expensive and would kill them. So how do you dispose of 4 million UK pet reptiles? Kill them and incinerate them... that's the best solution. And when you put then n big incinerators, you can all it a victory against the cruel reptile pet industry... complete with a banner above the incinerators saying "Bought to you in association with Lush Beauty Products"
> 
> Happy Now?


 
also let him know that if rep keeping is wrong then so is hamsters, birds and anything els that livs in a enclosure. and will all hav to be burnt thanks to lush's mad idears.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

nickleicester said:


> has anybody had any replys yet cuz i havent :devil:


I wouldn't expect an answer straight away - a week or more is more likely - especially if the editor of Lush Times is a 9-to-5 weekdays sort of guy.


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## Em_J (Dec 14, 2009)

Lets hope it goes the same way as the hunt sab campaign.

Proved to be unsubstantiated by the ASA.... 

How Lush made a meal out of fox hunting - Advertising, Media - The Independent

p.s. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-hunting, just anti-sab!


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## herpzane (Apr 1, 2008)

lol lush joining the APA!...........you tell me there isnt a single product or chemical in a product in lush that is tested on an animal............ you........lol


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## MissCat (Mar 9, 2009)

herpzane said:


> lol lush joining the APA!...........you tell me *there isnt a single product or chemical in a product in lush that is tested on an animal*........... you........lol


I do believe that is a fact that they are very proud of :whistling2:

(Correct me if I'm wrong)


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## bradhadair (Jun 18, 2009)

*Reply to email from LUSH*

*From:* Lush Customer Service 
*Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 11:45 AM
*To: *_*deleted lol*_ 
*Subject:* Re: Fwd: REF: I'M A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE! Lush Times Summer 2010 Article




Dear Charlotte,

Thank you for writing to us with your concerns about the Lush Times article, and I am grateful for this opportunity to explain why we are supporting the Animal Protection Agency (APA). At Lush we love creating fresh, lovely smelling, effective cosmetics that are kind to animals, people and the environment, and we use the proceeds from a number of our products to support causes and organisations with whom we share similar values.

The Animal Protection Agency (APA) campaigns against the trade in wild animals as pets, and works with scientists who are renowned experts in the fields of animal behaviour, veterinary medicine and conservation. APA has received wide support from politicians as well as the general public and their concerns about the exotic pet trade are echoed by the British Veterinary Association, the RSPCA, and all of the major animal welfare organisations.

The Animal Protection Agency and Lush accept that there are genuine reptile keepers who take the time to research scientifically-based information on captive husbandry and do their best to provide a spacious and naturalistic environment for these enormously complex animals. However, many either do not receive adequate information or rely on dubious sources of information which do not prepare them as owners. 

With the Chameleon campaign we are trying to raise awareness that these animal require specific care and conditions and that pet ownership, especially of exotic animals, requires serious consideration. We do not wish to offend existing pet owners and apologise if this was the message you got from the article.

If you would like further information about any of the areas covered by the article please visit the APA website (www.apa.org.uk) or contact the Animal Protection Agency directly at the details below.

Animal Protection Agency
Brighton Media Centre
15-17 Middle Street
Brighton
BN1 1AL
Tel: 01273 674253
Email: [email protected]

Throughout the course of the year we support many humanitarian, animal and environmental causes, many of which are nominated by our own customers. We welcome and value all feedback, so thank you for getting in touch with us. I will be sure to pass your comments on to our Campaigns team for future consideration. 

Kind regards,

Vicky Jansson
Customer Care Manager
Lush Retail Ltd
T: 01202 641006
E: [email protected]

And my response today: 

Dear Vicky,

"The Animal Protection Agency (APA) campaigns against the trade in wild animals as pets, and works with scientists who are renowned experts in the fields of animal behaviour, veterinary medicine and conservation. APA has received wide support from politicians as well as the general public and their concerns about the exotic pet trade are echoed by the British Veterinary Association, the RSPCA, and all of the major animal welfare organisations."

Both the APA, and the RSPCA, are against reptile keeping full stop, regardless of keepers ability and experience. I know this as the RSCPA have openly admitted to wanting all keeping stopped to me. Never mind the fact that some species once thought extinct in the wild, are prolific in the reptile-keepers world, for example the Crested Gecko, long believed extinct, the species was rediscovered in 1994 after a tropical storm, and is now one of the most widely kept reptile in captivity. This is surely a good thing? However, "along with several other _Rhacodactylus_ species, it is being considered for protected status by the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna." (Source Wikipedia)

I would recommend to you, that instead of the APA, that the CITES organisation is a better source of information and is infinitely more respected within conservation, veterinary and of course reptile keeper circles.

I'd like to take this opportunity to details Chameleons place within CITES. CITES-listed species database all species of_ Bradypodion _are listed on the CITES appendix II list, "Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look-alike species", i.e. species of which the specimens in trade look like those of species listed for conservation reasons (see Article II, paragraph 2 of the Convention). International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild. (See Article IV of the Convention)" (Source: CITES Appendices)

"The Animal Protection Agency and Lush accept that there are genuine reptile keepers who take the time to research scientifically-based information on captive husbandry and do their best to provide a spacious and naturalistic environment for these enormously complex animals. However, many either do not receive adequate information or rely on dubious sources of information which do not prepare them as owners. "
*"We do not wish to offend existing pet owners and apologise if this was the message you got from the article."*

I'm afraid here you have contradicted yourself. Your article clear states _"There is very little reliable information available on basic reptile care. Guidance that can be found on a lot of websites and in care-sheets and guide books can be misleading, false, and even dangerous. For some species, good quality information is available but tends to be buried in scientific texts and is largely inaccessible to the general public. To make matters worse, pet shops set a bad example to customers. For example, reptiles should never be kept in glass tanks. In the wild, reptiles don't encounter glass boundaries and never adapt to cope with them. Repeatedly trying to escape can cause facial injuries and also long-term and consistent stress." _This is taken directly from your article, and I'd like to ask how many people keep fish in tanks (not natural), rabbits in hutches (again not natural), cats and dogs inside, rats, mice, hamsters etc etc the list goes on. This article seemed to be a direct attack on reptile keepers singly and as a whole. You cannot make such sweeping statements like those in your article without offending every single person who keeps reptiles.

I would also like to ask where the assumption comes from that all reptiles in captivity are wild caught. Has the APA etc explained to you the difference between WC (wild caught), LTC (long term captive), CF (captive farmed) and CB (captive bred)? I guarantee you that if you searched around attempting to buy a chameleon, 99% of the animals offered are CB. Yes there are always going to be one or two WC or LTCs offered, but the situation is not as bad as the APA would lead you to believe as the availibilty of CB specimens means that there is not the demand for WC specimens as there is the risk of introducing parasites and disease into a collection. The given procedure for acclimatising a WC animal includes at least 6 months of quarantine, months of blood tests, several vet visits and faecal sampling, and, depending on the results of all the examinations, further quarantine, medication and treatment. It is just not worth the hassle for a reptile keeper to buy these WC animals!

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to respond to my email.

Charlotte Clelford


What you guys think? I haven't sent it yet, will wait for comments from you lot :notworthy:


----------



## bampoisongirl (Mar 28, 2008)

bradhadair said:


> *I'M A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE!
> 
> The Animal Protection Agency (APA) is the only European organisation solely focused on ceasing the trade in wild animals as pets. Founded in 2004, APA regularly contributes to the media; conducts scientific studies; provides advice to local and national Government; and offers a variety of educational resources, from leaflets to film.
> 
> ...


I'm really annoyed with that article, another company jumping on a bandwagon and tarring us with the same brush. I might have to get off my bum and send them and email too x


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I have just been on the APA website and I was very surprised to see that they APA has been successful in making the trade of pet animals at fair illegal.......

.......

.......

So what the hell was I doing a week last Sunday in Doncaster?


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

David L said:


> I have just been on the APA website and I was very surprised to see that they APA has been successful in making the trade of pet animals at fair illegal.......
> 
> .......
> 
> ...


hahaha shooting themselves in the foot...they'll run out of things to campaign against, and thus get funding if they keep claiming success?!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

David L said:


> I have just been on the APA website and I was very surprised to see that they APA has been successful in making the trade of pet animals at fair illegal.......
> 
> So what the hell was I doing a week last Sunday in Doncaster?


You were attending a society-organised Breeder's Meeting, not a "pet fair".


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## My_SnAkE_rUlEs (Aug 30, 2008)

bradhadair said:


> *From:* Lush Customer Service
> *Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 11:45 AM
> *To: *_*deleted lol*_
> *Subject:* Re: Fwd: REF: I'M A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE! Lush Times Summer 2010 Article
> ...


nicely done =]
i would write a letter, but i would loose my cool, and start typing abuse lol so im not going too.
its true though, 99% of the reptiles are not WC


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> You were attending a society-organised Breeder's Meeting, not a "pet fair".


 
Ahhhhh...I getcha.

Just like my 'earth excavating soil distribution utensil' is not really a spade at all....: victory:


----------



## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

bradhadair said:


> *From:* Lush Customer Service
> *Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 11:45 AM
> *To: *_*deleted lol*_
> *Subject:* Re: Fwd: REF: I'M A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE! Lush Times Summer 2010 Article
> ...


that's brilliant. i'd also like to know what scientists are actually supporting the APA, and if they are actually renowned or crackpots.
you've answered very thoughtfully and given alot of information. they will find it difficult to refute your letter, i would think!


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## Dayle (Jan 18, 2010)

got exactly the same email today it seemed to be pre-written like they knew it would cause upset but they did it anyway

its just a stupid campaign for a theme product and too make them look good but it dosnt make them look good it makes them look like ignorant idiots:devil:


my email:

Hello,

Thank you for writing to us with your concerns about the Lush Times article, and I am grateful for this opportunity to explain why we are supporting the Animal Protection Agency (APA). At Lush we love creating fresh, lovely smelling, effective cosmetics that are kind to animals, people and the environment, and we use the proceeds from a number of our products to support causes and organisations with whom we share similar values.

The Animal Protection Agency (APA) campaigns against the trade in wild animals as pets, and works with scientists who are renowned experts in the fields of animal behaviour, veterinary medicine and conservation. APA has received wide support from politicians as well as the general public and their concerns about the exotic pet trade are echoed by the British Veterinary Association, the RSPCA, and all of the major animal welfare organisations.

The Animal Protection Agency and Lush accept that there are genuine reptile keepers who take the time to research scientifically-based information on captive husbandry and do their best to provide a spacious and naturalistic environment for these enormously complex animals. However, many either do not receive adequate information or rely on dubious sources of information which do not prepare them as owners. 

With the Chameleon campaign we are trying to raise awareness that these animal require specific care and conditions and that pet ownership, especially of exotic animals, requires serious consideration. We do not wish to offend existing pet owners and apologise if this was the message you got from the article.

If you would like further information about any of the areas covered by the article please visit the APA website (www.apa.org.uk) or contact the Animal Protection Agency directly at the details below.

Animal Protection Agency
Brighton Media Centre
15-17 Middle Street
Brighton
BN1 1AL
Tel: 01273 674253
Email: [email protected]

Throughout the course of the year we support many humanitarian, animal and environmental causes, many of which are nominated by our own customers. We welcome and value all feedback, so thank you for getting in touch with us. I will be sure to pass your comments on to our Campaigns team for future consideration.

Kind regards,

Vicky Jansson
Customer Care Manager
Lush Retail Ltd
T: 01202 641006
E: [email protected]


p.s wont post the one i wrote because its awful and i cant spell lol


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## bradhadair (Jun 18, 2009)

ok so ill add in a question asking them to name the scientists backing this... anything else?



> p.s wont post the one i wrote because its awful and i cant spell lol


Mine basically said youve lost a loyal customer, potentially pissed off maybe thousands of reptile keepers, and in this current climate is that such a good idea lol... will see if i get a proper response from the next email after ive sent it :2thumb:


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## davidlottr (Nov 14, 2009)

if everyon is getting the smam email,t hen why not a bunch of us take a trip up there and have a word face to face.

we can all tell them what stupid :censor: :censor: they are


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Maybe its a nice idea to post some comments on their facebook page.... :whistling2:


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

To davidlottr.

I think a big protest outside their headquarters would be great. It is always the reptile keeper who gets it the in neck. Look at what has happened to our expos this year. This happened because of some loud mouthed animal rights woman. :bash: As far as I can work out.

I would like to challenge the animal rights people (and Lush) to take on the exotic meat trade (where snakes can be skinned alive for the pot) and the skin trade. Also where snakes and other reptiles can be skinned alive and left to die. This is where the real cruelty is going on. I would like to know what they are going to do about that. I know this is a different issue but one that I feel is relevant. :bash:

I also sent an email to Lush. I expect the same letter back that everyone else has got so far.:devil:

So when are having this protest? Count me in.


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## davidlottr (Nov 14, 2009)

citronella said:


> To davidlottr.
> 
> I think a big protest outside their headquarters would be great. It is always the reptile keeper who gets it the in neck. Look at what has happened to our expos this year. This happened because of some loud mouthed animal rights woman. :bash: As far as I can work out.
> 
> ...


im 100% on th protest name a time and date am i will be there


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I wouldn't publicly protest against them.... they might revel in the publicity.:devil:

For the moment I might just keep bombarding the facebook page with protests...

"LUSH.... the animal caring cosmetic company that wishes to see the deaths of 4.4 million exotic pets in the UK"

I doubt even Proctor and Gamble could top that. :devil:


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## hayes63 (Mar 8, 2010)

so the world has come full circle. we now have cosmetics companies complaining about the treatment of animals!?
frankly if they are so woefully inept as to saddle themselves with people like APA they deserve all they get. altho the mrs will be upset when there's no lush soap in her next birthday present i expect!

i agree that the capture and transport of WC animals needs to be better regulated but its simply not possible to do. at least with the rising awareness of keepers as more and more information becomes known about the care of these animals in captivity there will be higher success rates in terms of restocking endangered and at-risk populations. with the rate of deforestation and habitat destruction, the much maligned 'pet trade' is likely to become the only way of preserving many of these animals.

this is a major issue, so a single article can't cover the whole gamut of problems planetary ecology currently faces. what Lush really need to do is make a long term and serious commitment to a proper conservation system that assists rather than damages animals, be they wild or captive. so do we all. but nobody has any money so nothing gets done. it's terribly depressing really. i keep wishing i could win the lottery so i could buy a few square miles of rainforest and protect it, then send as many passionate and knowledgable biologists in there to study the animals and the plants so that we can come to better understanding of what really happens in these places.

the world is too massive and fascinating to be treated so cheaply. it's all just a shame. 

oh and btw i'm not a rabid shrub-cuddler or anything, i'm just airing the old brain out a bit :2thumb:


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Just found an email from Lush. In one part they say that reptiles do not belong in the pet trade and I have asked them to justify this when there are many people who have kept reptiles for many years. I also asked them why it is they are doing nothing about the trade in exotic skins and exotic food and why that has been left for people like me to educate others about the cruelty within these trades. If they did do something about these trades I would back them all the way. I suspect that far more herps are being killed for these trades, than are dying for the pet trade. Where are the animal rights people when it comes to down to a retic being skinned alive so his\her skin can be made into a handbag so some rich bimbo can brag to her mates about it. :bash:


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## RicDerby (Mar 22, 2009)

I find this so ironic:
Most reptile keepers who are truely serious about caring for animals would agree with their attempt to stop this cruelty to animals. I doubt anyone on this forum would agree(without good reason) with the unnecessary capturing of wild animals. 

If they really wanted good support for their campaign, it would be pro-reptile keeping because surely the true animal lovers are the people that want to care for them in the first place. Their target audience with this article is herpetophobes who don't like people keeping out of the ordinary animals like reptiles, not the people who genuinely care for the animals.

I guess this is the kind of ignorance you should expect to see against the hobby though.


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

I could not agree more. I find it totally bizarre that they make all that fuss about animal lovers keeping these beautiful creatures yet they ignore the very trades that kill them for fancy food, silly fashion and quack medicine. Then there are the people who will kill a snake for no other reason than that it is a snake, they would not kill any other animal. Sick.


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## oddsleepjunkie (Jul 11, 2009)

If you want the link to the actual article=
Lush Times July 2010:

Just flick along, it's near the end of the virtual book thingie. Needless to say, i'm a pretty big fan of lush and well pissed off!:censor:


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

I e-mailed a letter of complaint to Lush too. 

It came as quite a shock to me as I'm a hardcore Lush fan (literally; my house looks like a small Lush retail chain). I hadn't got to look at the recent copy of the Lush Times until my father turned to me and said "I've got a bone to pick with you! You love Lush and yet their recent magazine-thingy says their against reptile keeping!", needless to say I read it and got pretty wound up pretty quickly.

It was just the sheer one-mindedness of the topic which blew me away; which I now realise is actually mostly copy/pasta from the APA website itself. 

I mean I haven't got my first reptile yet (coming thursday) but I can definetly vouch for how helpful, professional and caring reptile owners can be, and Lush seemed to completly blow over this.

Also the idea they present that a glass tank would _never_ be appropriate for a reptile because of them not understanding 'glass boundaries' is ridiculous. _They're reptiles! 'Boundaries' are a human construction of restrictions, understood only in human terms! _More 'Animal Rights' garbage in my opinion. 

If they send me an automated response I will be very upset indeed, as Lush have gone to great lengths to emphasise their willingness to consider individual customers and their opinions.


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## lilith (May 18, 2010)

TBH they (Lush) don't sound like they know their a*se from their elbow ...:devil:


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

lilith said:


> TBH they (Lush) don't sound like they know their a*se from their elbow ...:devil:


When it comes to reptiles I'm inclined to agree with you, when it comes to cosmetics they're the masters.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

Kittysan said:


> I e-mailed a letter of complaint to Lush too.
> 
> It came as quite a shock to me as I'm a hardcore Lush fan (literally; my house looks like a small Lush retail chain). I hadn't got to look at the recent copy of the Lush Times until my father turned to me and said "I've got a bone to pick with you! You love Lush and yet their recent magazine-thingy says their against reptile keeping!", needless to say I read it and got pretty wound up pretty quickly.
> 
> ...


& to prove what a load of bollocks they are talking- i keep my pair of royals, pair of sinaloan milks, & my cali king in glass tanks- they all do great, & my milks laid 10 heathy eggs this year, that are incubating right now- does that sound like snakes stressed by glass bounderies?


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

Sounds like snakes doing what snakes do best; just being snakes and not even recognising what the human concept of a 'boundary' is. Congrads on the eggs by the way. C=

Now that I think about it why isn't Lush protesting about the Live-food trade!? Millions of poor, defenseless insects find themselves transported in cramped, stressful cartons day-after-day only to be fattened up and fed to a caged animal for our amusement. Disgraceful! 
Oh wait, Animal rights campaigners only push the 'animal cruelty' cases down people's throats when the animal is seen to have enough appeal to the public. Guess insect rights won't be making an apperance any time soon. >XP


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

ironically, from what i've been given to understand...there are some individuals that buy tracts of land in countries with cool animals and finance that purchase by selling some of the animals found in the land. i believe wild-catching animals willy-nilly is not all that legal in alot of places...but captive farmed (ie found on your land) is ok.
the implication is that people are buying tracts of land that would most likely be sold for development and selling a percentage of the animals they find and use that to buy (and thus protect) other tracts of land.
in this case, buying "WC" is actually PROTECTING both the animal and their locality.
i'm not saying this happens often, but i know of at least one company that does just this.
collecting for the pet trade is therefore not a black and white issue...as there are some doing it for conservation purposes as well as business.
but Lush, the APA and the IAR ...oh and PETA are not fond of looking at things in shades of grey. it stops them funding their ridiculous campaigns.
they appear to have become money-grubbing useless hypocrites and if that's true, (like estate agents) we'd be better off without them...and so would the animals.
this isn't to say there isn't a place for people to campaign for ethical treatment of animals, but this is a definite step over the boundaries and puts all their motives into doubt.


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## PrimalUrges (Dec 10, 2008)

Dayle said:


> Lush are a all natural cosmetic company like the body shop but its all home made stuffs they have released a new chameleon soap saying all procedes will goto the APA (animal protection agency) to stop the import and captive breeding of reptiles as and i quote "Breeding reptiles in captivity for the pet rrade causes suffering on a huge scale, according to the APA commercial breeding operations in the UK routinely opperate outside of the law"





Ssthisto said:


> Here's the letter I sent:


As always Ssthisto :notworthy: legend!



excession said:


> Maybe its a nice idea to post some comments on their facebook page.... :whistling2:


Something like this maybe?

"Hello Lush, can I ask why you are sticking your nose into something you clearly know nothing about with regards to the captive keeping and breeding of reptiles? Your new 'Chameleon' campaign is only what I can describe as an ill informed and incredibly biased hate campaign. I could point you in the direction of an industry that is far larger and far crueler than the trade in pets - the skin trade, or indeed the timber trade, which destroys the animals natural habitats which WE reptile keepers value and care for so much. Don't for one second think that we keep reptiles for any other reason than our passion for the species that this beautiful planet has developed. There are bad keepers in every facet of animal keeping: how is keeping a bird in a cage some how not as bad as keeping a snake in a tightly controlled microclimate? You have lost one customer here for sure, and I know many other reptile keepers will take this stance as well."


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## PrimalUrges (Dec 10, 2008)

I was then greeted with this response:

"can you email them personely instead of writing oon this page we all love lush and love the fact they support lots of charaties and campains"

Which I replied:


"Yes some of which are clearly supported with little thought or reason. Do you not think this propaganda is not very damaging to reptile keepers like us? You may not know or care about their PUBLIC campaign, but I do, so I am making my opinions public. Or is it ok for us to be painted in a bad light and then not stand up for ourselves?"


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

ooooo i got an email back :mf_dribble:

Dear Chloe,

Thank you for writing to us with your concerns about the Lush Times article, and I am grateful for this opportunity to explain why we are supporting the Animal Protection Agency (APA). At Lush we love creating fresh, lovely smelling, effective cosmetics that are kind to animals, people and the environment, and we use the proceeds from a number of our products to support causes and organisations with whom we share similar values.

The Animal Protection Agency (APA) campaigns against the trade in wild animals as pets, and works with scientists who are renowned experts in the fields of animal behaviour, veterinary medicine and conservation. APA has received wide support from politicians as well as the general public and their concerns about the exotic pet trade are echoed by the British Veterinary Association, the RSPCA, and all of the major animal welfare organisations.

With the Chameleon campaign we are trying to raise awareness of the suffering of reptiles in captivity and of the damage caused to species conservation by the trade in exotic pets. Our position, and that of the Animal Protection Agency, is clear: we believe that reptiles do not belong in the pet trade.

If you would like further information about any of the areas covered by the article please visit the APA website (www.apa.org) or contact the Animal Protection Agency directly at the details below.

Animal Protection Agency
Brighton Media Centre
15-17 Middle Street
Brighton
BN1 1AL
Tel: 01273 674253
Email: [email protected]

Throughout the course of the year we support many humanitarian, animal and environmental causes, many of which are nominated by our own customers. We welcome and value all feedback, so thank you for getting in touch with us. I will be sure to pass your comments on to our Campaigns team for future consideration.

Kind regards,

Vicky Jansson
Customer Care Manager
Lush Ltd.
T: 01202 641006
E: [email protected]

you didnt answer my questions :whip:


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## lilith (May 18, 2010)

And they might create nice perfumed goodies but they don't seem to realise about their smelling pistakes ...

Sorry, old joke, but good one.

Or, I might add, their totally misinformed inaccuracies.


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

cloggers said:


> ooooo i got an email back :mf_dribble:
> 
> Dear Chloe,
> 
> ...


Well... that's a identical response to the email I sent them a while back about it. Seems they reply with a automated email.


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## Conners (Dec 7, 2006)

I'd make a couple of points about this.

Reptile keeping is never going to be banned in the UK, and I mean _ever_. It's too popular and the number of people willing to stand up for it dwarfs the number who would wish to curtail or prohibit it. 

A council or other local body would not have the power or means to introduce wholesale prohibition on the keeping of exotic animals. They could try some regulation, but I doubt it would get very far.

If there was ever the serious threat of a national law that hit the hobby hard, it would be fairly easily for us to mobilise and visit MPs, persuading them that they'd lose hundreds or thousands of votes in their constituency if they supported any Bill. Since there simply aren't the numbers of people who'd passionately stand up for the opposite viewpoint, you can guarantee the MPs would wind up on the side of reptile hobbyists.

As such, it may be that Lush are doing more good than harm with this campaign. It's all very well for individual keepers to feel slighted by stuff from the APA, but the reality is that there are a lot of casual keepers who don't care for the animals correctly, and a lot of dodgy retailers that propagate the trade in wild caught reptiles by intermediaries who don't collect the animals responsibly or transport them humanely. It's good that there are bodies challenging this. Obviously there will be zealots who get facts wrong or start from a position of ignorance, but a lot of APA supporters are motivated by a genuine desire to protect animals. It's better to engage with them constructively if at all.

What's more, if the article isn't online, it will garner little publicity. Making comments on related Facebook pages etc will only draw attention to it.


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## indifference83 (Sep 6, 2008)

Maybe we could air our grievances to the ASA (Advertising Standards Agency) as per this link?


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

TheMetaphysicalNinja said:


> Well... that's a identical response to the email I sent them a while back about it. Seems they reply with a automated email.


:whip: so they send automated emails, and dont even have the courtesy to make it a decent one :bash:


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## cloggers (Mar 13, 2010)

PrimalUrges said:


> I was then greeted with this response:
> 
> "can you email them personely instead of writing oon this page we all love lush and love the fact they support lots of charaties and campains"
> 
> ...


you have an ace name :no1:


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## PrimalUrges (Dec 10, 2008)

cloggers said:


> you have an ace name :no1:


Thanks : victory:


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## Appleofmypie (Oct 1, 2009)

If lush were reptile lovers like us wanting to make sure reptiles were fairly treated, they would be active members of this forum :lol2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Conners said:


> IIf there was ever the serious threat of a national law that hit the hobby hard, it would be fairly easily for us to mobilise and visit MPs, persuading them that they'd lose hundreds or thousands of votes in their constituency if they supported any Bill.


Not as easy as you think. Seen _Pseudopus (Ophisaurus) apodus_ in any pet shops lately? (BTW: The ones listed as such at Snakes & Adders are not that species). The EPS legislation came in and there wasn't a darn thing that dedicated protests did about it except point out that the legislation (which passed anyway) was not going to be practically enforceable.



> Since there simply aren't the numbers of people who'd passionately stand up for the opposite viewpoint


This is, unfortunately, wrong.

There are LOTS of animal rights people. They absolutely ARE passionate about stopping the trade in exotic pets, even the ones who don't realise that means Granny's budgie too.

Underestimating AR agendas is not a good idea - scaremongering saying the trade is crashing isn't either, but don't dismiss the agenda completely.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Conners said:


> I'd make a couple of points about this.
> 
> Reptile keeping is never going to be banned in the UK, and I mean _ever_. It's too popular and the number of people willing to stand up for it dwarfs the number who would wish to curtail or prohibit it.
> 
> ...


Where have you been for the last fifteen years? These groups are hell bent on stopping all reptile keeping and the hobby has had to fight them and the MP's that support them every step of the way. If this bunch had had their way all pet keeping would of been banned durring the Animal Welfare Bill. 
We have tried talking to them both directly and at Government level but they have ignored the truth and continued to lie through their teeth to achieve their AR agenda. An agenda by the way that makes APA many thousands of pounds in donations from the gullible public every year. 

There is far more involved in WC than you suspect and most of it is now good as it is used as a conservation tool both in the countries of origin and here in Europe. 

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

Natrix said:


> Where have you been for the last fifteen years? These groups are hell bent on stopping all reptile keeping and the hobby has had to fight them and the MP's that support them every step of the way. If this bunch had had their way all pet keeping would of been banned durring the Animal Welfare Bill.
> We have tried talking to them both directly and at Government level but they have ignored the truth and continued to lie through their teeth to achieve their AR agenda. An agenda by the way that makes APA many thousands of pounds in donations from the gullible public every year.
> 
> There is far more involved in WC than you suspect and most of it is now good as it is used as a conservation tool both in the countries of origin and here in Europe.
> ...


hear, hear!:no1:


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

I was hopping mad when I read this article...I'm seriously considering returning my copy of Lush Times with a handwritten note as to why and to ask them not to send me their magazine in future. 

I am SOOOO going to miss Banana Moon soap. But IMO Lush are getting far away from their original ethics and turning into another Body Shop anyway. :bash:


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Years and years ago I belonged to certain AR groups. Most of the people I met then were reasonable but I was on an anti seal cull march one day and the dye had been cast even then. I met one woman in particular who thought ALL pets should be banned and turned loose. When I pointed out that most of then would not survive she turned round and said. "Well it will be the survival of the fittest." Then I thought about the impact that would have on our wild life. By the time I turned round to challenge her on that point she had moved on. 

The crazies are now running the asylum. :bash:


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

citronella said:


> Years and years ago I belonged to certain AR groups. Most of the people I met then were reasonable but I was on an anti seal cull march one day and the dye had been cast even then. * I met one woman in particular who thought ALL pets should be banned and turned loose. When I pointed out that most of then would not survive she turned round and said. "Well it will be the survival of the fittest." Then I thought about the impact that would have on our wild life. By the time I turned round to challenge her on that point she had moved on.
> 
> The crazies are now running the asylum. * :bash:


These are the only sort of AR people I have ever come across. they appear to be getting more rediculous, extremist and out of touch as the years go by.
Thank you AR peeps for releasing the mink. Great plan. 
Well done for releasing pet bunnies... they'll love myxomatosis....
Thanks AR peeps for teaching me that nature intended amel and snow corns to be eaten by moggies in a nice garden setting...


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Twiglet said:


> These are the only sort of AR people I have ever come across. they appear to be getting more rediculous, extremist and out of touch as the years go by.
> Thank you AR peeps for releasing the mink. Great plan.
> Well done for releasing pet bunnies... they'll love myxomatosis....
> Thanks AR peeps for teaching me that nature intended amel and snow corns to be eaten by moggies in a nice garden setting...


 
All we can do is stick together and fight them. I did meet some real nutters and I did not agree with them then and I do not agree with them now. 

I would hate any reptile to be killed and eaten by moggies but there are a lot of irresponsible moggy owners out there unfortunately. :bash:


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## lilith (May 18, 2010)

citronella said:


> All we can do is stick together and fight them. I did meet some real nutters and I did not agree with them then and I do not agree with them now.
> 
> I would hate any reptile to be killed and eaten by moggies but there are a lot of irresponsible moggy owners out there unfortunately. :bash:


Oh boy don't I know it! We had one in this street and when he abandoned them they moved in with me ... That was a HAPPY ending - well, they seem to think so (did i rescue them or did they rescue me?) But there are far more UNHAPPY endings ... sorry, off-topic, late at night, but why do people have such unrealistic ideas, or ideals, or so little commitment, when it comes to owning animals? We can all make mistakes but in some cases common sense goes out the window ... not buying any more Lush products, by the way.

Get off your soapbox, Lil.

Ok. Goodnight.


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## caffers1982 (Jan 17, 2010)

I've just battered their fb page.

What frustrates me more than anything is the sheer ignorance of it all.

Not only have they angered us but they've insulted us as well by being factually incorrect.

I am pro-hunt and I was one of the 100k people who Marched in London to stand up for a way of life.

Luckily we managed to save some vestige of hunting but it will never be the same.

With there being at least 1 million reptile keepers in the uk, hopefully there are enough of us to stand up against these zealots.

An to echo other peoples thoughts: we should be campaigning against real issues of animal cruelty, like live imports/exports, battery farming, and right on our doorstep, the tens of thousands of dogs and cats that are destroyed or in rescue centres because their owners got bored of them.


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## IndigoFire (Apr 11, 2009)

Hopefully it will all blow over...or I like the idea of the protest outside lush HQ with my OH/s panther cham...I'd take it into one of theyre shops on their 'fun-dont buy animals kids-days' but i think the fumes would not agree with the cham at all.


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## HerperUK (Jul 26, 2010)

Animal rights activists. They are our enemy.


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## denton (May 17, 2007)

my other half used to work for lush and the impression i always got was that this was a company run by idiots. running one stupid campaign after another.its not that long ago they were lobbying for the release of convicted terrorists from guantanamo bay "pants to a fair trial were all the staff werte encouraged to were pants and not a lot else. They need to pay more attention to the rights of the staff there ( of which quite a few of including one trainee manager keep reptiles) 
No sick pay when Your off work.
No paid Breaks. 
4 hour contracts.

An awful company to work for plus she used to stink the house out when she got home


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## joeyboy (Jul 19, 2008)

denton said:


> No sick pay when Your off work.
> No paid Breaks.
> 4 hour contracts.


that's generally how it works in retail in my experience, and I'd assume most other low paid areas of work. But certainly Iceland, Sainsburys, Wilkos. I'd assume the rest of the retail sector is the same, you don't get paid for breaks or illness(unless you are a supervisor or manager, basically getting a monthly salary). Weekly as it's pay as you work sort of thing, weekly pay slip.

If I do 9-5:30 I'll get paid 7.5hrs, not 8.5hrs. Contract wise if you're not a Supervisor or Manager(again monthly salary basically) you're usually classed as part-time even if you do 37+ hrs a week every week. Reason is from my experience is so they can cut your hours if they want, and you won't have a leg to stand on, probably other advantages to them classing workers as part-time even if they do always do a 40hr week. So an example is my contract is weekends and bankholidays, I do more then that now, but it hasn't been updated. Another guy I know works 37.5hrs, but his contract is for something like 15. Just so it's easier for them to fiddle with the hours if they need to I imagine.


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## denton (May 17, 2007)

not sure what company you work for but i work for sainsburys and even the students on 5 hour shifts get paid breaks ie at clock in for 5 hours work 4 3/4 hours get paid for five hours in fact a full days work ie 8-5 =30 mins paid break 1hour dinner unpaid. pretty sure its like that at most of the other large supermarkets.
anyway veering of topic slightly my original point was that lush are very flavour of the month and theyll soon forget about this for the next stupid ill advised campaign they decide to run


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## BangBang (Mar 13, 2010)

*Shakes head*

I'm sorry, but if they want to start digging at a majority of well-meaning people whose priorities are the wellbeing of their pets... 
then i want to start digging at the fact that i am forced to walk past one of their shops anytime i want to pop into town, i have to hold my nose/my breath, or face the risk of my nose hairs burning or passing out, from the ridiculous smell they insist on protruding from their factory of stink. Theres got to be an organisation somewhere that is against smells, and if there is, i'm going to start a petition with them to get lushes not lush smell made illegal. Suck on that mr 'i have nothing better to do than screw people over' *flips the bird in his direction*


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Personally, and i'll be totally honest here, it isnt gonna stop me buying Lush products, because in all honesty, theres always gonna be somebody dragging this trash up, the RSPCA did it years ago, its always an old chestnut that the anti's trawl out from time to time.
But in reality its next weeks bin fodder and nothing more.
Lush are misguided, nothing more, cant put them in the same league as the die hard anti's.


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## AmyW (Aug 24, 2009)

Dammit...I love their shampoo!

Oh well back to Shakakai hair powder as I will not be buying from them again!


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## Rum_Kitty (Jun 14, 2009)

In the vein of working for Lush, I have and they were awful. Basically fired me because "I didn't fit in" with their poncey stuck up daddy-bought-me-a-pony art student staff. I was turned off them a bit after that whole thing but I still think their body products are second to none, but I won't be shopping there now.


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I promise I will never use Lush ever again.... :bash:

But to be honest that's not much of a stretch...I use Sainsbury's home brand cheap crap shampoos anyway :lol2:


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## Juggernaut (Aug 10, 2008)

the lush shop in leeds positively stinks! it actually repels me instead of drawing me in. i have never bought owt for me from there, and never will.


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## Sean A (Aug 23, 2009)

Well here is my attempt to batter [email protected] its quite long so be warned lol. 
Dear Steve,
As mentioned above, I am emailing you to discuss the *I'M A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE! *article. Personally I see this as a disgraceful attempt to attract new customers and an attack on a minority group of pet owners. Like all domesticated animals, reptiles started off as wild caught, just as dogs, hamsters and any common household pet including pet fish but now due to cative breeding there are fewer and fewer wild caught specimens on sale. I wondered to myself why herpetoculturist's were discriminated against in such manner. I believe this was done because the average person knows little of herpetoculture and any biased information including in the article in mention would persuade them to support the campaign. However, I am extremely against the thought of purchasing a wild caught specimen for my private collection of reptiles and any suspicion of a wild caught reptile would cause me to avoid the pet shop supplying these animals at all costs. I think that the campaign is a brilliant idea to raise the public awareness of the topic but how it was done was extremely inappropriate and biased. The information that I am referring to is "There is very little reliable information available on basic reptile care. Guidance that can be found on a lot of websites and in care-sheets and guide books can be misleading, false, and even dangerous. For some species, good quality information is available but tends to be buried in scientific texts and is largely inaccessible to the general public. To make matters worse, pet shops set a bad example to customers. For example, reptiles should never be kept in glass tanks. In the wild, reptiles don't encounter glass boundaries and never adapt to cope with them. Repeatedly trying to escape can cause facial injuries and also long-term and consistent stress." This is inaccurate and can be compared to how to keep a dog. No information is misleading or dangerous to dogs and is the same as keeping reptiles. All husbandry needs are met and they couldn't be cared for in a better way. This is giving the public a bad image on herpetoculturists and many reptile keepers devote their lives to their reptiles, as people do to their dog or cat. But on a larger scale, there are more mistreatment's, cases of neglect and abandonment in cats, dogs and rodents than in all reptile species combined. Why? Because as the article states, reptiles are easier to look after than a dog! This is down to the easily accessible information on how to look after your reptile species. As I mentioned earlier this is a good campaign, but there are far better campaigns to be working towards. For example, dogs and cats being mistreated, abandoned and dog after dog is put down every week because there simply aren't enough people to re home the animals. Do you not think this is a far better campaign?

To say that reptiles do not encounter glass in the wild and struggle to cope is exactly the same as a simple and popular gold fish. I.e Putting a gold fish in a glass bowl, which it wouldn't encounter in the wild. Another example and is by far the best example of animal domestication and adaptation to being domesticated is dogs. They were wild and have been domesticated but would they encounter leads and collars in the wild? Doors and houses? Eating out of a bowl at allocated times? Listening to verbal commands from humans? Or being shown at Crufts in order to win best in show? I think you will find, if your research is correct this time instead of being vastly misleading, biased and incorrect as it is in the article, the answer is no to all of the questions. Reptiles have adapted to glass, being kept as pets much the same as other animals and captive bred reptiles do not suffer in captivity. They try to escape just as much as a dog would if the front door is open and if dogs do escape they can be caused much more than facial damage when they are involved in a car accident. I would like to end the email by saying that if it wasn't for herpetoculturists like me and many others, the chameleon's unique abilities may not be known and Lush wouldn't be releasing the Chameleon bath bomb. I would be very surprised if you read all the email but I would appreciate an email back informing me how I am incorrect in any of the issues I have raised as I found a few errors in your article, but know you should be aware of this and may think twice before attacking herpetoculturists in the future as im aware I am not the only one to email you on this matter. I look forward to your reply.

Sean Avery


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## TheMetaphysicalNinja (Aug 18, 2009)

denton said:


> No sick pay when Your off work.
> *No paid Breaks.
> 4 hour contracts.*
> An awful company to work for plus she used to stink the house out when she got home


Slightly off topic but... I'm stuck on the 2nd (much to my disgust) and assumed the 1st applied to all retail? Oooops...



Sean A said:


> Well here is my attempt to batter [email protected] its quite long so be warned lol.


Replied on your other thread, but yeah, post your reply, for comparison (think I lost the reply email) as i think it's a automated-we-can't-be-bothered-to-read-it reply.


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## Sean A (Aug 23, 2009)

My reply was that he is away from emails until 17th august, i think hes had enough of us lot so decided a holiday is in order


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

I don't have one of these set ups near me.
If any one visits a Lush store, please get a copy of any leaflets they are giving out and make a note of any advertising bumf they have around (a sneeky phone pic would be good) and let me have a copy.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing about this at the moment but any hard evidence will help with any complaint made.

Gordon Glasson
FBH VC


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

No need Gordon, follow this link, they do the mag online.

Lush Times July 2010:


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

pam b said:


> No need Gordon, follow this link, they do the mag online.
> 
> Lush Times July 2010:


Hi Pam

Thanks for that but what I'm after is anything like leaflets and advertisement boards that are being shown in or given away to the public in their shops. 

Gordon


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Natrix said:


> Hi Pam
> 
> Thanks for that but what I'm after is anything like leaflets and advertisement boards that are being shown in or given away to the public in their shops.
> 
> Gordon


As far as i'm aware the Lush Times is about it, if there were anything else i'd have got them in orders.


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

pam b said:


> As far as i'm aware the Lush Times is about it, if there were anything else i'd have got them in orders.


OK, thanks Pam, I was hoping to get some leaflets being displayed to the general public but the magazine will have to do.

Gordon


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

*I’M A CHAMELEON GET ME OUT OF HERE!*​ 
*The Animal Protection Agency (APA) is the only European organisation solely focused on ceasing the trade in wild animals as pets. Founded in 2004, APA regularly contributes to the media; conducts scientific studies; provides advice to local and national Government; and offers a variety of educational resources, from leaflets to film.*


*The Animal Protection Agency Ltd was formed when Elaine left Animal Aid Ltd to set up her own business. It is somewhat disingenuous for Elaine to claim she provides advice for local and national government, but rather she bombards them with inaccurate and misleading information. This is a significantly different to being an advisor who is actively involved as a direct government stake holder. *

*CAPTURING REPTILES FROM THE WILD FOR THE PET TRADE IS SADLY STILL LEGAL FOR MOST SPECIES.*


*Sustainable utilisation is the cornerstone of conservation and, as such, is actively supported by both the UK government and all member states of the EU, along with responsible conservation bodies.*

Six million reptiles were imported into the EU last year and almost 200,000 arrived in Britain from outside of the EU. These figures only show recorded trade; the true scale is actually much larger and is driving many species towards extinction.

*These figures are inaccurate and misleading, as numbers imported were significantly lower. Actually 90% of reptiles in the pet trade today are bred in captivity, not wild collected.*

The capture and transportation process is inherently crude and brutal. Chameleons, for instance, can suffer broken bones whilst being collected from the wild, either from rough handling or from the blow they receive when knocked from the branches to the ground. These frightened animals, who are usually solitary for most of the time, hiss and bite each other when packaged together in batches, which cause further injury and stress. The chameleons, already suffering from shock, can then endure long periods of dehydration and unsuitable temperatures whilst being transported the lond distance to the wholesaler.

*Those animals that die en route are simply factored in by the dealer as 'expected losses'.*

*A study by the Animal Reception Centre on mortality in transit (2003) on live reptiles and amphibians, showed that of the 501,310 reptiles and amphibians imported or trans-shipped via Heathrow, mortality on arrival was 0.47%, not the 50% claimed by various anti pet-keeping organisations. *

Most wild-caught reptiles die within their first year of captivity. Breeding reptiles in captivity for the pet trade causes suffering on a huge scale. According to the Animal Protection Agency, commercial reptile-breeding operations in the UK routinely operate outside of the law, are unlicensed and uninspected, and conditions are invariably inhumane.


*It is completely untrue that most reptiles die in their first year in captivity. This information was taken from a very old study on the importation of wild tortoises which has been prohibited. The truth is that reptiles kept in captivity are likely to live twice as long as their wild counterparts. *

The rise in popularity of reptiles as pets is currently due in part to the way they are marketed. For instance, some dealers readily claim that reptiles are easier to keep than dogs! Starter-kits are often sold alongside newly purchased animals. For these enormously complex animals; 'off-the-shelf' kits are nothing more than short-term life support systems and can be lethal in the long term.

*CAWC (June 2003) REPORT ON THE WELFARE OF NON-DOMESTICATED ANIMALS KEPT FOR COMPANIONSHIP*

*“….it may be easier to keep some non-domesticated species to high welfare standards than some that are domesticated. Thus, meeting all the requirements - space, dietary, social, thermal, and so on - of a small, hardy, reptile may be more readily achievable for many people than adequately fulfilling all the needs of some breeds of dog” *

*CAWC is a scientific body that is the formal advisor to government on animal welfare issues.*

There is very little reliable information available on basic reptile care. Guidance that can be found on a lot of websites and in care-sheets and guide books can be misleading, false, and even dangerous. For some species, good quality information is available but tends to be buried in scientific texts and is largely inaccessible to the general public. To make matters worse, pet shops set a bad example to customers. For example, reptiles should never be kept in glass tanks. In the wild, reptiles don't encounter glass boundaries and never adapt to cope with them. Repeatedly trying to escape can cause facial injuries and also long-term and consistent stress.


*In truth there is a plethora of information concerning reptile care, indeed as early as 1897 the Reverend George Bateman wrote a book entitled The Vivarium. This was the first English book published on how to keep and breed reptiles in captivity but the first book on reptile care was actually published in Europe (Germany) by Johann Matthaus Bechstein way back in 1797.*

*Pet Marketing Services is the largest distributor of books on companion animals in the country and their catalogue lists:*

* 104 titles on horses*
* 136 on cats *
* 200 on reptiles*

*Today there is probably more information published on reptilian husbandry that just about any other companion animal. *

Lush is helping the Animal Protection Agency to drive home the message that reptiles are wild animals, not pets. APA is shortly to launch an education programme through schools, which includes a film about exotic pet keeping, funded by Lush.

*WHAT YOU CAN DO*
Please join the Animal Protection Agency, the only organisation in Europe focused on campaigning against the exotic pet trade. Find out more about how to support their campaigns at Animal Protection Agency

*Lush are supporting the APA in a number of ways. We really want to raise awareness about the serious issues that affect chamleons when they are kept as pets. So, please come along to one of our children's parties, which will be taking place in all our shops during the first week of August.*

*The party will include arts and crafts as well as a scavenger hunt and an opportunity to find out more about these creatures. Bring your friends and children along to these fun packed parties to find out how you can help the chameleons from being treated so badly.*

*Lush will also be handing out leaflets, which will live at the till points, so do grab one! Please come along to our events and visit our shops to collect your leaflet and buy a chameleon bath bomb to show your support, not only the APA, but for individual chameleons in need of our help.*

*lush will donate all the proceeds (minus VAT) for the Chameleon Ballistic to the APA for the month of August.*

Inspired by the chameleon's unique abilities, our new colour-changing Chameleon Bath Ballistic will magically turn the water in your tub from green to pink to purple to blue.

Proceeds from sales of the new Chameleon Bath Ballistic will help to fund further projects, including eradicating reptile markets in the UK, producing an important new report on parrot welfare, and lobbying the government for greater protection of exotic animals in the pet trade. So while you lay back, luxuriate, and enjoy the colour show, you can also feel pretty proud of yourself for doing something to protect chameleons and all reptile-kind!


*Final Thoughts - putting things into perspective *

*In 2010 more than 50% of households in the UK keep pets, fish being the most numerical then cats, with dogs and reptiles the third most common.*

*Reptiles are increasingly the choice of informed and responsible pet keeper as they are more environmentally friendly that cats or dogs, and are less destructive to native wildlife or injurious to people. According the Health Surveillance System reptiles are the second safest pets, just behind tropical fish. *

*To further emphasise the fact that reptiles tend to be chosen by informed and responsible keepers is the fact that according to RSPCA data 90% less prosecutions are bought against reptile keepers than other taxa, such as dogs. Rehoning and unwanted animals are also less problematic, and in 2003 the RSPCA rehomed 25,000 dogs but less than 1,000 reptiles.*

*Between 2004, when Elaine set up her business, and 2008 the number of crickets sold each week in the UK rose from 10,000,000 a week to 20,000,000 a week, indicating that number of reptiles kept as pets had doubled. This number continues to rise each year and today in the UK there as many reptiles kept as pets as there are dogs, with numbers set to increase. *


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

In your official capacity as head of the FBH and as a genuine advisor to government will you be sending the above to Lush Chris?


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

pam b said:


> In your official capacity as head of the FBH and as a genuine advisor to government will you be sending the above to Lush Chris?


I haven’t Pam, the reason is that I do not work in a ‘campaigning’ capacity, I work in advisory role. As I sit on various governmental and non-governmental committees I do not think it is appropriate that I am seen to be ‘campaigning’ in any way shape or form. I am very happy to provide factual information, and what people do with that information is of course up to them. The information contained in the Lush article is inaccurate and frankly very misleading which is why I have provided the information above.


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Chris Newman said:


> I haven’t Pam, the reason is that I do not work in a ‘campaigning’ capacity, I work in advisory role. As I sit on various governmental and non-governmental committees I do not think it is appropriate that I am seen to be ‘campaigning’ in any way shape or form. I am very happy to provide factual information, and what people do with that information is of course up to them. The information contained in the Lush article is inaccurate and frankly very misleading which is why I have provided the information above.


Thanks Chris, totally understandable why you cant then.


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Hold the phone......
Chris/Gordon they now have a video on there site.

YouTube - ‪Lush Cosmetics - I'm a Chameleon, Get Me Out of Here Campaign‬‎


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

pam b said:


> Hold the phone......
> Chris/Gordon they now have a video on there site.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Lush Cosmetics - I'm a Chameleon, Get Me Out of Here Campaign‬‎


This angers me greatly. :whip:


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## Ant and Soph (Apr 15, 2010)

they must be getting plenty of emails. Im sure it wont be long until they end up contacting someone else. Hopefully Chris or Gordon or the FBH in general so they can get some accurate info


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## abisheridee (Feb 27, 2010)

this doesn't suprise me one bit. i adore LUSH products and only use them (i'm an addict, i buy the little baggies of samples off ebay so i don't have to pay their stupid extortionate prices... my housemates got a bit suspicious of all the little sachets of powder in my room...) but they are SO misguided. i remember last year they were raising funds for the HSA (hunt saboteurs association), members of which have CUT HORSES LEGS to stop them from being able to run, physically attacked huntsmen/women and are generally pretty naughty. 

they should be concentrating on things like bullfighting and the omak suicide race...


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

I think to actually get the message home to them, rather than send messages to the head office it would make more sense to actually go and speak to a manager of a local store. I wouldnt however suggest going in all guns blazing nor, taking any snakes or lizards with you! Have it thought out in your head all the things you want to say.


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

Mujician said:


> I think to actually get the message home to them, rather than send messages to the head office it would make more sense to actually go and speak to a manager of a local store. I wouldnt however suggest going in all guns blazing nor, taking any snakes or lizards with you! Have it thought out in your head all the things you want to say.


I wouldn't dream of taking a reptile into Lush; some of the smells in there overpower _me_ let alone a reptile.


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Did anyone see the latest Panorama about the number of dogs (mainly staffies) that are being put down because no one wants them. It showed a greatly distressed vet who had to put healthy dogs to sleep. He did this on his own as none of his staff wanted any part of it and he respected their views. Where are the APA in this situation. Is this issue to much for them to take on so they bully reptile owners instead, seeing us as a softer target. Where are the APA and Lush when snakes are being skinned alive either for the pot, or even worse so their beautiful skins can be made into ugly boots, bags and belts for even uglier people to wear and brag about, like they are so good and cleaver? :whip:

I did send Steve an email on this issue but surprise, surprise, no reply was what I received back. This is how much they really care about the welfare of reptiles. :bash:


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## Crispy_Bacon (Sep 24, 2009)

I cannot belive I missed this thread...

I shall consider my response to the appropriate PARTIES very carefully but still anyone who gets a responce from steve @ lush be sure to post it up asap I want to hear what this man has to say for himself!

I recently watched a program on i player i think it was called big snake and i found it very difficult to watch maybe steve @ lush should watch it see what he thinks of it ... a hunt for a 30 foot wild snake just for a £50,000 reward including very graphic scenes of the skin trade and also tribes being paid to find the snake and when they do find it they chop its jaw off (at least they ate it I suppose) but the man that paid them to track the animal stood by and watched them kill it even though he wanted it alive. 

I find Lush's actions very conserning and disapointing (my O/H will be disapointed they wont be having any more of my hard earnt cash) and i will certainly be drafting some kind of amalgamation of everybodys thoughts and views and would be more than happy to sign and send it on behalf of anyone who wishes thier name to be on it 

L.


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

This thread has been floating around for a good while now. Still a hot topic.


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## wilkinss77 (Sep 23, 2008)

citronella said:


> This thread has been floating around for a good while now. Still a hot topic.


that's because it's a threat to our hobby.:bash::whip:


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> that's because it's a threat to our hobby.:bash::whip:


 

I could not agree more. :bash::bash::bash::bash:


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## Crispy_Bacon (Sep 24, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> that's because it's a threat to our hobby.:bash::whip:


I don't belive this is a threat to our hobby we should see this as an *opportunity* to edcuate others on our passion and maybe go some way to helping stop the real problem i.e the skin trade

L.


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Crispy_Bacon said:


> I don't belive this is a threat to our hobby we should see this as an *opportunity* to edcuate others on our passion and maybe go some way to helping stop the real problem i.e the skin trade
> 
> L.


 
Thank you. I have been saying the same thing about the skin trade for ages and you are right about the education side too. Again, a big thank you.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Crispy_Bacon said:


> I don't belive this is a threat to our hobby we should see this as an *opportunity* to edcuate others on our passion and maybe go some way to helping stop the real problem i.e the skin trade
> 
> L.


You are absolutely right, the only damage this campaign will do is to Lush it’s self. Sure Elaine will make some money out of it, she is after all very good at making money – in my views it’s her only interest, clearly she has little knowledge of animals. As a company Lush have grossly miscalculated the damage it will do to themselves, reptiles are the third most popular pets, more than a million households keep them. The demographics show the dominate sector are less then 26 years of age, I suspect the same dominate sector of Lush customers! So well done Lush, spectacular own goal!!

The bottom-line, reptiles as pets are growing in popularity for the passed decade and will continue to do so. When Elaine started her own business campaigning against reptiles as pets in 2004 the industry sold ten million crickets a week, last year it sold well in excess of 20 million crickets a week, this demonstrates just how ineffectual she has been. This campaign will be no different, it will have zero effect, that said of course it might actually encourage some new keepers!


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

citronella said:


> Thank you. I have been saying the same thing about the skin trade for ages and you are right about the education side too. Again, a big thank you.


Here is some date for the Skin Trade v Live Trade, its old data from a presentation I gave to the RSPCA. The situation has not improved!!!


n CITES data on exports from Indonesia

_Python curtus_ 

*2000* *2001* *2002*

*Live* *3,326* *4,419* *6,654*
*Skins 40,524* *43,396* *39,757*

_Python reticulatus_ 

*2000* *2001* *2002*

*Live* *3,097* *3,848 4,503* 
*Skins 169,891* *160,042* *173,132* 

_Varanus_ _salvator _

*2000* *2001* *2002*

*Live* *4,011* *5,212* *4,966* 
*Skins 438,457* *469,841* *440,727*


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Here is some date for the Skin Trade v Live Trade, its old data from a presentation I gave to the RSPCA. The situation has not improved!!!
> 
> 
> n CITES data on exports from Indonesia
> ...


Those are sickening figures.
:eek4:


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Here is some date for the Skin Trade v Live Trade, its old data from a presentation I gave to the RSPCA. The situation has not improved!!!
> 
> 
> n CITES data on exports from Indonesia
> ...


 
Thanks for this info. I will have to have a good look on the CITES website. There are not words strong enough to describe what I really think of the skin trade or the people who perpetrate it. :bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

excession said:


> Those are sickening figures.
> :eek4:


 
It is my opinion that the skin trade is a sickening trade for sick making people. :whip:


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## Ant and Soph (Apr 15, 2010)

For anyone wondering I got an email back from the Steve Brackstone at lush. Or at least his secretary, he is away until tuesday the 17th of august. Id suggest we all resend the emails then. As long as we are friendly and approachable about the topic he has no reason to give us a bad response, and we may well get the chance to teach him some more accurate facts


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> Here is some date for the Skin Trade v Live Trade, its old data from a presentation I gave to the RSPCA. The situation has not improved!!!
> 
> 
> n CITES data on exports from Indonesia
> ...


when i think of my little Python curtus especially, it brings it home. i could weep for these animals... the skin trade is a pointless horror that needs to stop...

i think it's right what's been said...this is not a threat to our hobby. some have tried to make difficulties for us, like that moron who got his cat or something eaten...wilbur was it? he campaigned and got one of the most sensible responses i'd have hope to see from the government, basically that these animals are not a threat and didn't require any extra licensing etc.
it'd be very difficult to just suddenly outlaw the keeping of exotics...
however as said, this is an opportunity, maybe we can do a bit of good for the reptiles we love and care for when opposition like this rears its ugly head.
i think it says something about the hobby and the hobbyists that we care this much that we DO want to see things improved for them...both in captivity and in the wild. if we were the cruel, heartless people the antis make us out to be, we wouldn't care at all.


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## Crispy_Bacon (Sep 24, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Here is some date for the Skin Trade v Live Trade, its old data from a presentation I gave to the RSPCA. The situation has not improved!!!
> 
> 
> n CITES data on exports from Indonesia
> ...


thos figures are horrific! this just proves we have to do something about it!


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

The scale of slaughter for the skin, traditional medicines and food is almost beyond comprehension, hundreds of millions of animals annually. The number of animal’s collected for the pet trade by comparison is completely insignificant, and remember when animals are collected for the pet trade the intention is for those animals to live, animals collected for the other purposes are not so lucky!

The other major threat to any species comes form habitat destruction, indeed ultimately habitat destruction is probably the greatest threat to the survival of many species. Here is part of the presentation I gave to the RSPCA back in 2005:


*Habitat Destruction & Loss of Reptiles [Cogger et.al. data 2001]*

*Between 1983 and 1993, land clearing led to the deaths of at least 1 billion reptiles - more than 100 million reptiles on average each year*

*That at least 4.4 million reptiles die each year on Australia's roads ("roadkills") *

*That at most about 15,000 reptiles are taken from the wild each year for museum collections, research and keeping as pets*


*Global Reptile Trade For Pets*

*n *Total reptiles exported/re-exported (USA) 1996 *9,505,489 *

n Of these *88.1%* *(8,376, 216)* were Red-eared Sliders 
(these are captive bred)

*n *Non Red-eared Sliders *1,129 273*

n For argument’s sake lets us assume *12,000,000* reptiles and amphibians are traded annually for pets 

n *12,000,000* wild caught reptiles and amphibians may be traded annually for pets per YEAR 

n Habitat loss accounts for *17, 200,000* reptiles PER DAY

*n Or if you prefer in excess of 62 BILLION reptiles per year*

*n **Note: figures for habitat destruction do not include amphibians!*


If people like Elaine Tolland truly, truly cared for animals and animal welfare these are the issues she should be highlighting, the fact that she doesn’t is, I would suggest, compelling evidence she is only concerned with making money and has a total disregard for animals, that is my personal view.


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> The scale of slaughter for the skin, traditional medicines and food is almost beyond comprehension, hundreds of millions of animals annually. The number of animal’s collected for the pet trade by comparison is completely insignificant, and remember when animals are collected for the pet trade the intention is for those animals to live, animals collected for the other purposes are not so lucky!
> 
> The other major threat to any species comes form habitat destruction, indeed ultimately habitat destruction is probably the greatest threat to the survival of many species. Here is part of the presentation I gave to the RSPCA back in 2005:
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this with us.

The numbers are truly horrific. I have been trying to educate people about the skin trade, the exotic food trade and quack medicine. I have often felt like I was banging my head up against a brick wall. The times I have heard "You can't do anything about it" just makes me more determined to do something.

I prefer the words of the late Steve Erwin. "One person can make a difference." 

I am one person trying to make a difference. 

Back in the 80's we had the anti Canadian seal cull marches that brought London to a stand still and the Canadian embassy ended up dripping in blood red paint. Baby white coat seals were being slaughtered in their thousands on the ice floes and their skins were used for fashion items. So much pressure was put on the Canadian government with people boycotting Canadian goods that a ban was brought in and the slaughter was stopped.

If we can do this for the seals then why not the millions of reptiles that are killed each year for silly fashion, stupid so called delicacy meals and idiotic cures that science has proved do not work.
One reason people are not screaming from the rooftops about this is because it has never been exposed like the seal cull was and there are a lot of people out there who simply do not know about it.
Another reason is that reps and snakes in particular have one big PR problem. They are not considered to be "cute" or "pretty" or "cuddly" or "sweet" so it is fine to ignore them. Then there is the opinion that they are lower animals and they are not as developed as other animals (mammals) so they do not feel pain and therefore can not suffer. I have come across people who have tried to tell me I am wrong when I tell them that herps feel pain. 

The people involved in these barbaric trades do not want the general public to know how many of the herps are tortured to death and their deaths are from being just as bad to far worse than anything seen on the Canadian ice floes. Then there is, as has been stated habitat destruction. Those of us who do know about these things should do all we can to make sure that the general public do know what that exotic meat is and how it was kept and killed. Just where did that "snake wine" come from that you are drinking when holidaying in the far east just to get a laugh from your mates because you were told it was an aphrodisiac and that reptile skin that your nice new handbag is made from could well have been ripped from the snake, crocodile, alligator or lizard while it was alive and fully concious. Those among them who do not care should be shown videos of the horrors until they do care as these are often the very people who buy this stuff. My mother has a saying. "Don't care was made to care." If people are not made to care about these creatures many of them will go extinct. It can all be avoided by ending these selfish trades and a stop being put to destroying their habitat.

Greedy governments need to take the dollar signs out of their eyes and look at what has been going on while they were to busy money grabbing to care. If not there will be nothing left.

Man will not survive without the rest of nature as Man is part of nature. 

We forget this at our own peril.


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

They've got a whole page on their website dedicated to this now-
A Far Cry from Nature



> Proceeds from sales of _the new Chameleon Bath Ballistic will help to fund further projects, including eradicating reptile markets in the UK, producing an important new report on parrot welfare, and lobbying the government for greater protection of exotic animals in the pet trade._ So, while you lie back and enjoy the colour show, you can also feel pretty proud of yourself for doing something to protect chameleons and all reptile-kind!


Another video is also linked on the page-
YouTube - ‪A Far Cry from Nature - Part 1‬‎
The amount they say ' poisonous snake' is annoying. ¬_¬


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Kittysan said:


> They've got a whole page on their website dedicated to this now-
> A Far Cry from Nature
> 
> 
> ...


 
We could get together and make our own video putting across how it really is using information from 2010. I notice that theirs seems to be 10 years out of date.


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

It could be done at the Kempton show.


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## steph1060 (Apr 14, 2009)

i think we should comment on lush facebook page >.<


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

Kittysan said:


> It could be done at the Kempton show.


 
Brilliant idea. Maybe at Hamm as well it would go down even better if some one could get hold of some confiscated snake skin goods and particularly skins that had not been made into anything. Get enough stuff together to do a really professional presentation. The only thing is it will have to come with a warning sign. 

I like it.:2thumb:


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

steph1060 said:


> i think we should comment on lush facebook page >.<


I will get some facts and figures together and then ask then why they are not tackling the issues I raised above.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

I stumbled across this whilst tidying up some files, it’s an email I sent to Elaine quite a long time ago – I am still awaiting a reply! This when she was in the employment of Animal Aid, since she has started her own business I have personally invited her to attend many such events, unfortunately she never had the courtesy to reply….

The person narrating the ‘Far Cry from Nature’ videos is Clifford Warwick, Clifford is purported to be the “scientific expert” for the Animal Protection Agency, and other animal rights businesses. I remember him when he was a reptile dealer/smuggler, many, many years ago. His credentials in terms of being a scientist are less clear, he certainly belongs to many societies etc and is very keen to use those letters after his name, but how many are actually ‘qualifications’ are less clear! It was at one time touted he had a degree from Copenhagen University, unfortunately when we contacted them they had never heard of him!! He was then supposed to be a researcher at Leeds Medical School, again when we contacted them this storey appeared not to be entirely accurate, he had applied to be a student but at the time had not taken up his position. So does he actually have any proper qualification’s – who knows!!!



*OPEN LETTER TO ELAINE TOLAND SPOKESPERSON FOR ANIMAL AID *

*Date: 23/08/01*

Without prejudice


Dear Ms Toland,

Further to my fax to you dated the 21/08/01, regarding your press release of 17/08/01, I am surprised and somewhat disappointed you have yet again failed to respond. Perhaps you will have the courtesy to respond on this occasion. I was also most disappointed that that you failed to respond to my previous letter to you dated 22/06/01. I am attaching a copy, just in case you have forgotten about it.

What do you have to hide? If you and your fellows are so concerned about the public good, should you not make the effort to attend a reptile event and make your views known. Why not take the trouble to attend the event this weekend, as you have been offered a stand free of charge this would not seem unreasonable. You could bring with your alleged scientific expert, Clifford Warwick as he doesn’t live that far away. He would I am sure be pleased to know that the tortoises I purchased from him all those years ago are still thriving in captivity, so much for the rubbish that you broadcast about reptiles not surviving in captivity. I would personally like to meet up with him again and reminisce about the good old days and how things have changed within the reptile trade. I still have some of his old prices lists from his reptile dealing days; perhaps he would like copies as mementos?

I would like to personally invite you and your comrades to attend Exotica Southwest this weekend. My family and I will be at this event and would be delighted to debate your concerns. I do feel it is your moral duty to attend and educate my four children as to why they should not keep reptiles, indeed should not even have any contact with animals not on your approved list. 

I certainly now feel that I have a moral duty to inform the public about your organisation. You have manipulated the press for too long and have been allowed to cynically exploit the public’s concerns for animal welfare for financial gain. You have failed to answer allegations that you have picked on reptiles as a cheap publicity stunt which you drag through the media like a circus. You don’t care about the animals, you only want to stir up fear and hatred against them. You also keep very quiet about the fact that your self-styled scientific advisor is an ex-reptile dealer. I am sure we can get plenty of media mileage out of some of this, what do you think? 

You describe yourselves as an Animal Right’s group but on what basis? You are not doing anything for animal rights, you are working to get your own aims accepted. Creating public panic and hatred of certain groups of animals cannot be beneficial to animals; hounding conservationists and those trying to breed endangered species is not beneficial to animals; attempting to stop people learning more about the natural world is not beneficial to animals; stopping people having contact with animals that you lot find unsuitable is not beneficial to animals. You cannot even justify how you pick certain groups as safe and others get labelled dangerous – you feel that you are unaccountable for your actions.

It is about time the media were made aware of the way you have been exploiting them; you have been unchallenged for too long. You are not an animal rights group; your actions against animal welfare prove that. You are a business which enjoys financial gain by staging publicity stunts against small groups which you think won’t challenge you or fight back. You show a blatant disregard for the truth and will not listen to reason. You refuse to communicate with anyone whose views oppose yours and want to act a judge and jury, presiding over the rights of others. 

You publish a load of total nonsense about reptiles and then you refuse to listen when the facts are pointed out to you. I would like to see you all held accountable for the damage being done to reptiles and those who wish to work for their welfare. We don’t all want to live in a homogenised world, where we can only have contact with animals you allow us to and we don’t want our children to grow up in a world when the views of a few misguided fanatics become the rule. 

Yours sincerely,


*Chris Newman*


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

I overheard a conversation between two women outside our local LUSH shop about how this is "such a good cause and that it's great companies get behing this kind of thing". My Mrs wasn't please but I had to stop and educate these women on why this is such a load of crap. They seemed to except what I'd said and were quite receptive.

What I'm thinking is, if anyone (Natrix maybe :whistling2 could get some literature together explaining the problems with Lush's argument. We as forum members could organise a kind of "day of action" whereby we can take up station outside of Lush's retail establishments and hand out panflets and generally educate their customers?

Fight the power :2thumb:


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## sunan (Apr 8, 2010)

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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

I've started a thread on their forum on facebook about the campaign...

Lush Limited | Facebook

Feel free to join in, though remember to keep it civilised! It won't help if the thread gets deleted : victory:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Sephiroth said:


> I've started a thread on their forum on facebook about the campaign...
> 
> Lush Limited | Facebook
> 
> Feel free to join in, though remember to keep it civilised! It won't help if the thread gets deleted : victory:


And it would appear that you have immediately hooked an 'anti'. She clearly believes all pet keeping is wrong and selfish..unless you 'rescue it' and then it's ok, 'cos then you can have all the pleasure of pet ownership but justify your personal guilt because it was a 'rescue'..typical anti stance 'I can own animals because I'm special and _really_love animals, no-one else can because they are evil and animals are not their slaves':devil:

(I paraphrase of course:whistling2


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

I was in Worcester Saturday with my dad, he notices a big sign saying "EXOTIC ANIMALS ARE NOT PETS" and pointed it out to me, needless to say it was outside a Lush shop, I stood there looking at it, and one of the sales girls was just about to come over to me, I just spat out a massive snot ball on the sign and walked off


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## April Taylor (Nov 25, 2008)

bothrops said:


> And it would appear that you have immediately hooked an 'anti'. She clearly believes all pet keeping is wrong and selfish..unless you 'rescue it' and then it's ok, 'cos then you can have all the pleasure of pet ownership but justify your personal guilt because it was a 'rescue'..typical anti stance 'I can own animals because I'm special and _really_love animals, no-one else can because they are evil and animals are not their slaves':devil:
> 
> (I paraphrase of course:whistling2


but you paraphrase so well :notworthy:



Omerov1986 said:


> I was in Worcester Saturday with my dad, he notices a big sign saying "EXOTIC ANIMALS ARE NOT PETS" and pointed it out to me, needless to say it was outside a Lush shop, I stood there looking at it, and one of the sales girls was just about to come over to me, *I just spat out a massive snot ball on the sign and walked off*


yuk, way to make us all look gross! Please say that is a joke?


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Omerov1986 said:


> I was in Worcester Saturday with my dad, he notices a big sign saying "EXOTIC ANIMALS ARE NOT PETS" and pointed it out to me, needless to say it was outside a Lush shop, I stood there looking at it, and one of the sales girls was just about to come over to me, I just spat out a massive snot ball on the sign and walked off


Fight the power :2thumb:


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

April Taylor said:


> but you paraphrase so well :notworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> yuk, way to make us all look gross! Please say that is a joke?





paulds said:


> Fight the power :2thumb:


:no1:


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Omerov1986 said:


> :no1:


 I had an idea about substituting their soap bars with the ones from fight club????

Could work :whistling2:


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## Omerov1986 (Feb 11, 2009)

yes! lol


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## Natrix (Dec 9, 2006)

Please remember to complain to the ASA ASA - Home

If enough people point this out to them it will be investigated. Use the information supplied by Chris Newman earlier in this post and mention the FBH, just so they know who to ask for advice.

Gordon

FBH VC


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

paulds said:


> I had an idea about substituting their soap bars with the ones from fight club????
> 
> Could work :whistling2:


best film ever!!!! :no1:


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## xautomaticflowersx (Sep 7, 2009)

Natrix said:


> Please remember to complain to the ASA ASA - Home
> 
> If enough people point this out to them it will be investigated. Use the information supplied by Chris Newman earlier in this post and mention the FBH, just so they know who to ask for advice.
> 
> ...


I have just done this with the following message as well as some of the statistical information provided by Chris Newman earlier in the thread...

*Lush are promoting a new product, the "Chameleon Bath Ballistic". The proceeds of which will go to fanatical animal rights group APA.
As well as their new Chameleon Bath Ballistic product, Lush are giving out leaflets, putting up posters in their shop windows saying that exotic animals should not be kept as pets and holding events and parties for children in their stores nationwide.
This advertising campaign is making claims based on both false information from dubious and unknown sources and out of date statistics.
It is also extremely offensive to the millions of people in the UK who keep reptiles as the campaign suggests that all people who keep reptiles are barbaric and cruel. This is absolutely not the case. Obviously there are some very sick people who are cruel or abusive to animals. However, Lush and the APA are telling the public that everyone who keeps reptiles is an animal abuser. This is a smear campaign aimed at a large sector of the general public.*

If enough people contact the ASA then they will be forced to deal with this issue.


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Natrix said:


> Please remember to complain to the ASA ASA - Home
> 
> If enough people point this out to them it will be investigated. Use the information supplied by Chris Newman earlier in this post and mention the FBH, just so they know who to ask for advice.
> 
> ...


What would be the FBH's stand point on distributing information, for the Exotic pet trade outside of Lush retail establishments? : victory:


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

xautomaticflowersx said:


> I have just done this with the following message as well as some of the statistical information provided by Chris Newman earlier in the thread...
> 
> *Lush are promoting a new product, the "Chameleon Bath Ballistic". The proceeds of which will go to fanatical animal rights group APA.*
> *As well as their new Chameleon Bath Ballistic product, Lush are giving out leaflets, putting up posters in their shop windows saying that exotic animals should not be kept as pets and holding events and parties for children in their stores nationwide.*
> ...


Here is what I just left.......

*This advertisement is campaigning for an end to the exotic pet trade, using flawed or contrived information, solely to try and influence their client base into thinking they are a responsible retailer by campaigning against something they obviously know nothing about.*

*I feel it unfair that they are able to provide "misinformation" to the general public, insinuating that the trade and keeping of exotic pets is somehow cruel.*

*To provide such flawed information and masquerade it as fact is unethical and without the platform for balanced "factual" information to be supplied alongside is unfair.*

*For them to be able to carry on with these deliberate and slanderous allegations against both importers and reptile keepers alike, is preposterous and could have serious implications for a hobby that is very close to a huge percentage of the general public.*

*If "Lush" are allowed to continue with this campaign it would at least be reasonable to enforce them to provide factual evidence for the "pros" of the Exotic pet trade, in order for the general public to gain a balanced and non biased field of information.*


*The fact that "Lush" are able to affiliate themselves to the APA who are well documented in their disapproval of Exotic pets, is like permitting Argos to affiliate themselves with the Labour party and put promotions in the window, undermining the opposition and claiming that "Argos is against dismantling the NHS" obviously this would never be permitted to happen, so I fail to see why it is reasonable in this case.*

*Many thanks for your help in this matter.*

*Kind regards,*

*Paul.*


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

There's a discussion on the Lush Facebook site right now, I've just added my 2 pennies...

Is anyone good with Photoshop?

Can somebody hook up a picture of a giant animal incinerator (Google it), and add the Lush logo on with the words: 

"Exotic Pet incinerator, bought to you in association with Lush Cosmetics"

I reckon that should be a good image to fight them with, as it demonstrates that Lush isn't so animal friendly after all, and wishes to see the destruction of animals, not the welfare of them....


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't think a shock tactic like that will be effective.


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

I do, I reckon it might send the message that they haven't quite thought through what the ramifications would be if they succeeded...

I'd stand outside LUSH store tomorrow with a banner with that image on it. It's worked in the Animal Rights campaigners in the past to show pictures of animal cruelty when trying to gain publicity, this kind of portrayal could have an adverse affect on their motivation as it clearly demonstrates a negative impact of which they themselves created.

What we need to say is this, clearly and loudly... "What do you want to happen? And have you considered the consequences if you succeed?"


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

David L said:


> I do, I reckon it might send the message that they haven't quite thought through what the ramifications would be if they succeeded...
> 
> I'd stand outside LUSH store tomorrow with a banner with that image on it. It's worked in the Animal Rights campaigners in the past to show pictures of animal cruelty when trying to gain publicity, this kind of portrayal could have an adverse affect on their motivation as it clearly demonstrates a negative impact of which they themselves created.
> 
> What we need to say is this, clearly and loudly... "What do you want to happen? And have you considered the consequences if you succeed?"


I'm headed in a similar direction, I soap boxed a couple of ladies outside of my local lush on Saturday and now I'm seriously considering getting some handouts of my own made up and standing outside the store and educating their customers : victory:


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

paulds said:


> I'm headed in a similar direction, I soap boxed a couple of ladies outside of my local lush on Saturday and now I'm seriously considering getting some handouts of my own made up and standing outside the store and educating their customers : victory:


That's probably be a better idea, but you still might get in trouble if Lush notices your presence. Perhaps talk to the people in your local Lush store and ask if you can hand out leaflets with info in them.


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Kittysan said:


> That's probably be a better idea, but you still might get in trouble if Lush notices your presence. Perhaps talk to the people in your local Lush store and ask if you can hand out leaflets with info in them.


They can bring it as far as I'm concerned, they are handing out misinformation and I am solely exercising my right to educate. As long as I am not disruptive to the stores business then legally i can do as i like. : victory:

I'm getting a bit militant in my old age :blush:


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

paulds said:


> I'm headed in a similar direction, I soap boxed a couple of ladies outside of my local lush on Saturday and now I'm seriously considering getting some handouts of my own made up and standing outside the store and educating their customers : victory:


Too right mate....

Just read the campaign 'A Far Cry from Nature' - what an insulting garbage bag of bile. I am just looking at my Frilled dragon and wondering about the statement "I*n the wild, reptiles don't encounter glass boundaries and never adapt to cope with them*."

In my most humble opinion... he really does look like he doesn't give a toss, and seems to cope just fine....


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

David L said:


> Too right mate....
> 
> Just read the campaign 'A Far Cry from Nature' - what an insulting garbage bag of bile. I am just looking at my Frilled dragon and wondering about the statement "I*n the wild, reptiles don't encounter glass boundaries and never adapt to cope with them*."
> 
> In my most humble opinion... he really does look like he doesn't give a toss, and seems to cope just fine....


 Precisely, what they are marketing as the truth is some dicks opinion!

I have contacted the APA about the morality of a retail outlet being allowed to present a onesided argument on animal rights and i'll be interested to see what comes back but I can see me spending quite a bit of time at Lush from now on.

If I can cause enough of a problem for the local store then hopefully they will see fit to remove the posters and leaflets, I'm not chaining myself to the doors or anything but if I start distracting their customers with my "whats all this crap about" comments they might just do it so I bugger off. : victory:


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

paulds said:


> Precisely, what they are marketing as the truth is some dicks opinion!
> 
> I have contacted the APA about the morality of a retail outlet being allowed to present a onesided argument on animal rights and i'll be interested to see what comes back but I can see me spending quite a bit of time at Lush from now on.
> 
> If I can cause enough of a problem for the local store then hopefully they will see fit to remove the posters and leaflets, I'm not chaining myself to the doors or anything but if I start distracting their customers with my "whats all this crap about" comments they might just do it so I bugger off. : victory:


I think it's obvious now that they have no interest in any debate or reply to criticism of their campaign. So if they don't (or won't) listen to the facts, it's time their customers did.


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

David L said:


> I think it's obvious now that they have no interest in any debate or reply to criticism of their campaign. So if they don't (or won't) listen to the facts, it's time their customers did.


Spot on mate, I'm a bit too old to repeatadly go into stores and wrech their posters, so educating their customers about the truth of the exotic pet trade seems the more adult approach :2thumb:


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> I stumbled across this whilst tidying up some files, it’s an email I sent to Elaine quite a long time ago – I am still awaiting a reply! This when she was in the employment of Animal Aid, since she has started her own business I have personally invited her to attend many such events, unfortunately she never had the courtesy to reply….
> 
> The person narrating the ‘Far Cry from Nature’ videos is Clifford Warwick, Clifford is purported to be the “scientific expert” for the Animal Protection Agency, and other animal rights businesses. I remember him when he was a reptile dealer/smuggler, many, many years ago. His credentials in terms of being a scientist are less clear, he certainly belongs to many societies etc and is very keen to use those letters after his name, but how many are actually ‘qualifications’ are less clear! It was at one time touted he had a degree from Copenhagen University, unfortunately when we contacted them they had never heard of him!! He was then supposed to be a researcher at Leeds Medical School, again when we contacted them this storey appeared not to be entirely accurate, he had applied to be a student but at the time had not taken up his position. So does he actually have any proper qualification’s – who knows!!!
> 
> ...


hey Chris, would you mind me quoting this and some of the other facts and figures you've cited to some organisations i'm involved with? there's a good chance they use Lush and i'd like to chat to them about it, with some proper information behind what i say.
if you want to know who/what the organisations are, PM me and i'll tell you. they aren't animal specific, but i reckon some would care.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

paulds said:


> What would be the FBH's stand point on distributing information, for the Exotic pet trade outside of Lush retail establishments? : victory:


 
Any of the information that we have made available on this thread is for people to use as they see fit, if people wish to make this available as a leaflet and offer to customers outside any of Lush’s shops they can do so with our blessing – all I would ask is this is done curiously.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

corpselight said:


> hey Chris, would you mind me quoting this and some of the other facts and figures you've cited to some organisations i'm involved with? there's a good chance they use Lush and i'd like to chat to them about it, with some proper information behind what i say.
> if you want to know who/what the organisations are, PM me and i'll tell you. they aren't animal specific, but i reckon some would care.


Please, feel free to use any of the information we have made available as you see fit.


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> Please, feel free to use any of the information we have made available as you see fit.


cheers mate, i've sent one email, see how it's received lol
i'll have some more facts to back it up if necessary thanks to you and this thread.
hopefully can get fewer people to use that thrice be-damned company Lush...and protect a few reptiles while i'm at it.


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

Though I feel information would be much more useful then what I've just knocked up, I thought I'd share this random creation with you guys. :blush:


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## David L (Jul 13, 2009)

Kitty you are evil!!! :devil:

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

Love it!

I've been involved in some diologue with a fan of Lush on the Facebook page, she declined my invitation to join us on here, I thought at first she was connected to the company, but no, they remain deaf at the moment...


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## Kittysan (Jul 21, 2010)

I try :blush:


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Any of the information that we have made available on this thread is for people to use as they see fit, if people wish to make this available as a leaflet and offer to customers outside any of Lush’s shops they can do so with our blessing – all I would ask is this is done curiously.


 Excellent, I am meeting with some friends this weekend in regard to an advertising campaign for work and I'm fairly certain they could put something together in a pro bono capacity for me (reaches for the diary for print contacts) : victory:


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## Ant and Soph (Apr 15, 2010)

How many branches are you guys going to be doing? Way I figure it is if we all day it on same day (for those who can) at multiple branches they will have a hard time ignoring us. I can possibly cover Cambridge branch if there is nobody else in the area to do it? Although I'd suggest someone more experienced if possible as Iv been in the hobby for a year only


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## corpselight (Jan 10, 2008)

Kittysan said:


> image
> 
> 
> Though I feel information would be much more useful then what I've just knocked up, I thought I'd share this random creation with you guys. :blush:


great!:2thumb:
though just as a suggestion, instead of the horrible conditions of the pet trade, you could say instead of the cruel conditions in loving homes lol
just to drive the point home that the majority of us (the minority of crap owners corresponds to the minority of crap people present in all groups and isn't worth mentioning) do our best to provide decent conditions and homes.


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

My reply from the ASA.......


*LUSH RETAIL LTD*

*Thank you for contacting the Advertising Standards Authority. I’m sorry to hear that this matter has caused you concern.*

*Before we continue are you at all able to send us a copy of the leaflet and an image of the shop display material? If so, we would be grateful if you could submit a copy to this office, or forward them to this email address.*

*The ASA’s effectiveness depends on resolving complaints fairly and swiftly. So that we can conclude this matter as soon as possible, we should like to receive your response either way within five working days of the date on this email. *

*I therefore look forward to hearing from you by 17th August.*

*Best regards,*

If anyone is able to supply me with or post on here a copy of some of the Lush marketing, I will send this on.


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## PawsForThought (Sep 7, 2007)

I also received the same email from them... I gave them a link to the webpage, but they are asking for the printed material...  guess I'll have to actually go to one of their shops :devil:

Discussion on Lush's facebook forum is still going strong by the way if anyone else fancies joining in 

Chameleon Campaign | Facebook


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

PawsForThought said:


> I also received the same email from them... I gave them a link to the webpage, but they are asking for the printed material...  guess I'll have to actually go to one of their shops :devil:
> 
> Discussion on Lush's facebook forum is still going strong by the way if anyone else fancies joining in
> 
> Chameleon Campaign | Facebook


If you get anything will you scan it and post it on here or pm with it, I can't get there til the weekend and I'd like to get this sorted. :2thumb:


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## PawsForThought (Sep 7, 2007)

whoops... should be using my personal account for this! :blush:



paulds said:


> If you get anything will you scan it and post it on here or pm with it, I can't get there til the weekend and I'd like to get this sorted. :2thumb:


I'm in the same boat... don't know when I'll be able to get to the store... hopefully one of their ex-customers on here will have one handy : victory: I think someone said they had the magazine earlier on....


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

If people are raelly going to grat images and banners and are going for the high impact scare tactic, then i would suggest geting the incenerator image and have the slogan 

'Lush supports the cull of 126 billion exotic animals'

Or whatever the figour would be. As that will stand out to animal rights supporters as well as the general public. 

Jay


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

you can catch more bees with honey...

I would just use Chris's post (but on a flier) where he breaks down their propaganda point by point... 

It seems too easy to just argue "oh, they wouldn't burn them. They'd just wait until they have all died of old age." (and keep them under 24 hour survailance for the next 50 years to make sure they don't breed, lol.)


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Id suggest a 'who's next on the list?' with a picture of a dog or a cat.

Most people can relate to fluffy companions a lot easier than our scaly friends.

Unfortunately reptiles and exotic pets seem like easy victims for this type of 'advertising' mostly because of diss-information and age old phobias.

People need to realise that organisations like the APA will not be satisfied until there are NO pets. be it a hamster, goldfish or a yorkshire terrier.

If i was not so busy Id knock up a flyer for you guys...


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

Actually... I'd be up for handing out fliers/protesting at the Leeds (or possibly York) branch this weekend...

anyone else interested? I can do either Saturday in York or Sunday in Leeds.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Welcome to Facebook


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

Freakinfreak said:


> Welcome to Facebook


You messed up the capitalization on the word lush 

'liked' it anyway


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

excession said:


> You messed up the capitalization on the word lush
> 
> 'liked' it anyway


I noticed that, but it's not my page :razz:


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

started another thread in case anyone fancies a bit of protesting this weekend :whistling2:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...1432-protests-against-lush-apa-chameleon.html


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## andy007 (May 13, 2008)

Hi
I emailed Lush about this campaign and used some real statistics gathered from the forum/FBH etc

Here is the reply I received today - 

_Thank you for writing to us with your concerns about the Lush Times article, and I am grateful for this opportunity to explain why we are supporting the Animal Protection Agency (APA). At Lush we love creating fresh, lovely smelling, effective cosmetics that are kind to animals, people and the environment, and we use the proceeds from a number of our products to support causes and organisations with whom we share similar values.

The Animal Protection Agency (APA) campaigns against the trade in wild animals as pets, and works with scientists who are renowned experts in the fields of animal behaviour, veterinary medicine and conservation. APA has received wide support from politicians as well as the general public and their concerns about the exotic pet trade are echoed by the British Veterinary Association, the RSPCA, and all of the major animal welfare organisations.

With the Chameleon campaign we are trying to raise awareness of the suffering of reptiles in captivity and of the damage caused to species conservation by the trade in exotic pets. Our position, and that of the Animal Protection Agency, is clear: we believe that reptiles do not belong in the pet trade.

If you would like further information about any of the areas covered by the article please visit the APA website (American Psychological Association (APA)) or contact the Animal Protection Agency directly at the details below.


Throughout the course of the year we support many humanitarian, animal and environmental causes, many of which are nominated by our own customers. We welcome and value all feedback, so thank you for getting in touch with us. I will be sure to pass your comments on to our Campaigns team for future consideration. 

Kind regards,

Kat Walters 
Customer Care 
Lush Retail Ltd 
Tel: 01202 641006 
Email: [email protected]
_


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## Ant and Soph (Apr 15, 2010)

See I always imagined APA would be animal related. american psychology? lol sorry but how the hell is that nimal related?


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## **starry11** (Apr 3, 2009)

Iv'e just seen the advert for this on their youtube channel, not sure if it's been posted on here yet. 

YouTube - ‪Lush Cosmetics - I'm a Chameleon, Get Me Out of Here Campaign‬‎


I'm disappointed Lush is supporting this :whip:


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

Ant and Soph said:


> See I always imagined APA would be animal related. american psychology? lol sorry but how the hell is that nimal related?


:lol2: omg... they are flipping retards!

And what's this about damage caused to species conservation??? Without the captive breeding many species would be extinct!


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## Dutchology (Jun 17, 2009)

What exactly constitutes an 'exotic animal' in their eyes? Lizards & snakes? Marmosets? Inverts? Does this extend to all 'non-national' species? I could list a few more animals that they could incinerate.... Goldfish, Japanese Akitas, Syrian Hamsters, Mongolian Gerbils, Netherlands Dwarf Rabbits..............


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

**starry11** said:


> Iv'e just seen the advert for this on their youtube channel, not sure if it's been posted on here yet.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Lush Cosmetics - I'm a Chameleon, Get Me Out of Here Campaign‬‎
> 
> ...


...guess who 'sirandyofgecko' is...:whistling2:


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## kumqat (Nov 9, 2008)

bothrops said:


> ...guess who 'sirandyofgecko' is...:whistling2:


:notworthy: yay you finally got a knighthood then :whistling2:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

kumqat said:


> :notworthy: yay you finally got a knighthood then :whistling2:


long story involving a high court judge, a Grenadian Yacht club, a pool cue and ALOT of rum......(no, honestly!)


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## **starry11** (Apr 3, 2009)

bothrops said:


> ...guess who 'sirandyofgecko' is...:whistling2:


ha ha nice work, i left a comment a few hours ago too


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## Stoats (Apr 22, 2009)

Yeuch. Walked past lush today, and there was a large, red billboard, stating "EXOTIC ANIMALS ARE NOT PETS". 

It looks like lush has managed to get itself into hot water recently about making false claims in similar leaflets about hunting on behalf of hunt saboteurs:

How Lush made a meal out of fox hunting - Advertising, Media - The Independent

I should have thought we could interest the independant in a follow-up story here, given their baseless claims about reptile mortality, their dubious "experts", etc. Chris - do you think this would be a good idea? I'm more than half tempted to draft out a letter explaining things to send off to them...


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

**starry11** said:


> Iv'e just seen the advert for this on their youtube channel, not sure if it's been posted on here yet.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Lush Cosmetics - I'm a Chameleon, Get Me Out of Here Campaign‬‎
> 
> ...


hee hee... that vid is getting some nice comments :2thumb: keep them coming!


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

Stoats said:


> Yeuch. Walked past lush today, and there was a large, red billboard, stating "EXOTIC ANIMALS ARE NOT PETS".
> 
> It looks like lush has managed to get itself into hot water recently about making false claims in similar leaflets about hunting on behalf of hunt saboteurs:
> 
> ...


It looks like ASA are going to be investigating this campaign as well... I had the same idea as you. It would look pretty bad for them to be confronted by the Advertising Standards Authority twice in three months! With any luck, this time they will have to have all their publications vetted by ASA for the next couple of years :2thumb:

but if we can get a few protests together, then that is something the press will definitely be interested in... also, it will show that the campaign has evoked widespread insult, which will also help the ASA case.


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## celicachi (Sep 16, 2009)

Sephiroth said:


> hee hee... that vid is getting some nice comments :2thumb: keep them coming!


just took a look, what a load of crap it is

they can stick there bath bombs up their :censor:


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## kumqat (Nov 9, 2008)

Piece taken from tonight's the Staffordshie Sentinel under the headline
*Caged protest over reptiles*
Shoppers can expect to see a human chameleon in a cage as part of a protest about keeping lizards captive. A worker from Lush Cosmetics will get into the costume at it's unit in Hanley's Potteries Shopping Centre at noon tomorrow. Other employees plan to hold posters and hand out leaflets to passers-by as part of a week-long campaign aimed at convincing customers reptiles should not be kept as pets. It comes after Lush directors met with UK campaigning group Animal Protection Agency (APA) for talks about the trade in lizards. Meanwhile, a £2.50 chameleon bath product will be on sale throughout August, with procedes going to the APA.
:gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:


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## **starry11** (Apr 3, 2009)

kumqat said:


> Piece taken from tonight's the Staffordshie Sentinel under the headline
> *Caged protest over reptiles*
> Shoppers can expect to see a human chameleon in a cage as part of a protest about keeping lizards captive. A worker from Lush Cosmetics will get into the costume at it's unit in Hanley's Potteries Shopping Centre at noon tomorrow. Other employees plan to hold posters and hand out leaflets to passers-by as part of a week-long campaign aimed at convincing customers reptiles should not be kept as pets. It comes after Lush directors met with UK campaigning group Animal Protection Agency (APA) for talks about the trade in lizards. Meanwhile, a £2.50 chameleon bath product will be on sale throughout August, with procedes going to the APA.
> :gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:


 

I'm actually quite angry, their customers will be buying this product thinking they are supporting a good cause, instead they are just making these b:censor:s rich. Their actual products have alot to answer for aswell, the main claim they have is that they don't use harmful ingredients, they use sodium lauryl sulphate, propylene glycol and parabens (known cancer causing and skin irritants). Def won't be buying from them again.

If anyone is on youtube thumbs down the video, leave your comment and is you can be arsed leave a comment on their channel, it might put people off buying and let them see the other side.


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## EquineArcher (Feb 13, 2010)

I have been onto the facebook page and left a long comment, and also onto the facebook video.

Very tempted to go into the Aberdeen Lush and see what sort of nonsense they have up in there

(and how much I can take down before I caught )


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## citronella (Dec 15, 2009)

There is a Lush store near me also. I am very temped to go in there and educate some people about our dreadfully cruel hobby and warn all the customers to lock up their pets to protect them from these so called do-gooders. Oh, what a bad lot we are.....

......NOT.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Dutchology said:


> What exactly constitutes an 'exotic animal' in their eyes? Lizards & snakes? Marmosets? Inverts? Does this extend to all 'non-national' species? I could list a few more animals that they could incinerate.... Goldfish, Japanese Akitas, Syrian Hamsters, Mongolian Gerbils, Netherlands Dwarf Rabbits..............


An “exotic pet” is ANY animal that is not native to the UK, for example: goldfish, rabbits, gerbils, hamsters, etc, etc…. in other words just about any animal that is not a cat or dog!


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Dear All,

I have followed this and several other threads here on RFUK concerning the campaigner supported by Lush 'IM A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE!” Cleary this has angered and upset many keepers, and rightly so it is a very dishonest portrait of our passion. A wise man once said to me “don’t get mad, get even”, words of wisdom that should be applied here! Lush is a company found on ethics, so I am sure they are not a company that would wish to mislead its customers in an unethical way, such as supporting a campaign which it knows to be dishonest! Therefore is it not your duty to educate this company [and its customers] about the truth? 

I have already made some comments here: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/541204-lush-12.html#post6761810 which may be helpful. The benefits of keeping pets are immense, one of the organisations I am a member of ProPets has an informative website: http://www.propetsgroup.org.uk/ Visit the download section and read some of the publications we have done, I’m sure you will find some of the information helpful. Each year we produce a factual and informative document that is circulated to local and national government.

So what can you do? Well if you are a customer of Lush, and many people here clearly are, or were, then write to the company outlining your objections to this campaign. Be polite, but express your feeling and explain why you feel you would no longer be able to purchase their products – people power is hugely influential. It has been a spectacular own goal by Lush to alienate so many of its customers, so let then know! 

It has been suggested that RFUK members hand out informative leaflets to customers entering Lush stores, this is an excellent suggestion. Perhaps a member could design a simple leaflet that could be downloaded from the RFUK website so members could hand them out! If people are going to do this please, please be careful, you have every right to protest against this campaign but there are some extremely unpleasant and violent Animal Rights extremist out their – be safe. 

In closing to raise funds to fight illegal trade in wildlife is entirely honourable, but any funds raised should only go to organisations that operate with honesty and integrity, clearly this precludes certain organisations/business. The leading body for fighting “illegal trade” is TRAFFIC http://www.traffic.org/ Therefore may I suggest the objective of any action against the campaign supported by Lush should be to divert any funds raised to go to TRAFFIC, this way Lush can clearly demonstrate their ethical stance whilst retaining their integrity. 

With very best regards,
Chris Newman


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## April Taylor (Nov 25, 2008)

citronella said:


> There is a Lush store near me also. I am very temped to go in there and educate some people about our dreadfully cruel hobby and warn all the customers to lock up their pets to protect them from these so called do-gooders. Oh, what a bad lot we are.....
> 
> ......NOT.


The shop staff won't care, it isn't their decision to hold this campaign, just keep bombarding head office :2thumb:


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

Head office won't back down. ASA is the best chance here. But what Lush have done is actually quite clever, if unethical.

It's the same as the anti hunting campaign they did. It is just a temporary promotion and so by the time ASA had told them to stop, the damage was done and they had raked in the profits.

Exactly the same thing this time round. It's almost certain ASA will rule against them for the chameleon campaign, but by the time they do they will have already sold all their bloody chameleon bombs.

I'm more interested in protecting the reputation of reptile keepers from this campaign, and leave ASA to deal with Lush directly.

So I'm up fro leafleting (with informative leaflets sans incinerators :whistling2: ) outside either Leeds or York this weekend if anyone else is up for it!


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

People could try a factual letter to their local press about this...... if it gets published and just a couple more people become aware then that can only be a good thing.



Also as well as being proactive by way of targeting local lush stores....target local pet shops as well.
print out a factual, non aggressive leaflet aimed at pet keepers and ask them if they would be willing to have one up and some on their desk.....


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## April Taylor (Nov 25, 2008)

wohic said:


> People could try a factual letter to their local press about this...... if it gets published and just a couple more people become aware then that can only be a good thing.


 
I actually work for a local paper, The Leicester Mercury and attempted this, only to be told that it "wasn't suitable for the paper" which translated to "Lush spend a lot of money in advertising with us" :bash:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

April Taylor said:


> I actually work for a local paper, The Leicester Mercury and attempted this, only to be told that it "wasn't suitable for the paper" which translated to "Lush spend a lot of money in advertising with us" :bash:



Thats good to hear that the paper is so impartial :bash:


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## April Taylor (Nov 25, 2008)

wohic said:


> Thats good to hear that the paper is so impartial :bash:


exactly my feelings - I ranted at the newspaper editor for ages but couldn't sway him. :devil:


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I have followed this and several other threads here on RFUK concerning the campaigner supported by Lush 'IM A CHAMELEON, GET ME OUT OF HERE!” Cleary this has angered and upset many keepers, and rightly so it is a very dishonest portrait of our passion. A wise man once said to me “don’t get mad, get even”, words of wisdom that should be applied here! Lush is a company found on ethics, so I am sure they are not a company that would wish to mislead its customers in an unethical way, such as supporting a campaign which it knows to be dishonest! Therefore is it not your duty to educate this company [and its customers] about the truth?
> 
> ...


 Thank you for this information Chris, I am meeting with a marketing company to get some things done for work and discussed the possibility of putting some leaflets together by way of a "kick back" for my business, it didn't fall on deaf ears, so with any luck I should be able to have some prototype leaflets to post by early part of next week.

Things are moving along with the ASA but I require a scanned copy of the Lush leaflet for them to consider, if anyone is able to post a copy of this, I will be able to present it to the lady dealing with the case at the ASA and hopefully get a relatively quick conclusion.



wohic said:


> People could try a factual letter to their local press about this...... if it gets published and just a couple more people become aware then that can only be a good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I like the pet shop idea, it will be targeting people with a genuine interest in animals rather than the wagon jumpers who may be influenced by Lush's campaign : victory:


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Quite a few people seem to be behind the leafleting idea, if we are all able to sing from the same hymn sheet on this one it will help, which is why it will be important for someone to post a template on here that everyone could print off to hand out.

In my opinion, the most effective way of making an impact with this, will be to arrange a "day of action" of sorts, whereby, we can all target our local Lush stores at the same time.

Calls to local papers to mention that local reptile keepers are planning a protest outside of Lush stores in response to this campaign should generate enough interest to at least get a photographer out.

If this is handled well, it could be very effective :2thumb:


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

paulds said:


> Quite a few people seem to be behind the leafleting idea, if we are all able to sing from the same hymn sheet on this one it will help, which is why it will be important for someone to post a template on here that everyone could print off to hand out.
> 
> In my opinion, the most effective way of making an impact with this, will be to arrange a "day of action" of sorts, whereby, we can all target our local Lush stores at the same time.
> 
> ...


Yes but we have to be fast! This campaign won't last long.

This weekend! Let's do it! I can probably put something together tonight unless someone beats me to it :whistling2:

I'm thinking of mainly using something similar to Chris's post where he breaks down the propaganda.


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Sephiroth said:


> Yes but we have to be fast! This campaign won't last long.
> 
> This weekend! Let's do it! I can probably put something together tonight unless someone beats me to it :whistling2:
> 
> I'm thinking of mainly using something similar to Chris's post where he breaks down the propaganda.


Sounds like a plan, I wouldn't be able to get anything sorted until this weekend, so go for it bud.

A day of action on Saturday seems the best shot of getting an impact. : victory:


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

hee hee... and just for a giggle we could hand out chameleon caresheets! :lol2:

I can do York on saturday I think....


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

paulds said:


> Quite a few people seem to be behind the leafleting idea, if we are all able to sing from the same hymn sheet on this one it will help, which is why it will be important for someone to post a template on here that everyone could print off to hand out.
> 
> In my opinion, the most effective way of making an impact with this, will be to arrange a "day of action" of sorts, whereby, we can all target our local Lush stores at the same time.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree, a coordinate plan of action would have far more impact. As this directly affects the interest of people here on RFUK, perhaps they would like to setup a forum section dedicated to this! At the moment there are so many threads on this forum a dedicated section would seem logical!


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> I absolutely agree, a coordinate plan of action would have far more impact. As this directly affects the interest of people here on RFUK, perhaps they would like to setup a forum section dedicated to this! At the moment there are so many threads on this forum a dedicated section would seem logical!


i set up a thread for Lush protests but no one's biting yet :whistling2:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...gainst-lush-apa-chameleon.html?highlight=lush


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Sephiroth said:


> hee hee... and just for a giggle we could hand out chameleon caresheets! :lol2:
> 
> I can do York on saturday I think....


I have Maidstone covered :2thumb:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Sephiroth said:


> i set up a thread for Lush protests but no one's biting yet :whistling2:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...gainst-lush-apa-chameleon.html?highlight=lush


Excellent, this needs to be seen as a separate section on the front page of the forum, surely one of the administrators should be able to organise this!


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> I absolutely agree, a coordinate plan of action would have far more impact. As this directly affects the interest of people here on RFUK, perhaps they would like to setup a forum section dedicated to this! At the moment there are so many threads on this forum a dedicated section would seem logical!


I will try and get in touch with a few more people on this, local reptile clubs will be a good source of man power and knowledge, so if anyone is a member or know a member of any drop them a line 



Sephiroth said:


> i set up a thread for Lush protests but no one's biting yet :whistling2:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...gainst-lush-apa-chameleon.html?highlight=lush


 I'll be getting in there now : victory:


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Excellent, this needs to be seen as a separate section on the front page of the forum, surely one of the administrators should be able to organise this!


Agreed, or even if it is moved to the main snake forum, it will get more traffic. : victory:


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Trust me it would get lost in a separate section, we had a sub forum when the new AWB was being proposed, it was only used by Tska and one or two others..... this is higher profile where it is.
If you want someone to stumble on info put it where they usually are, dont put it somewhere new .
As for the front page most people i know bypass that when logging on and come straight to the forum any way


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## paulds (Mar 17, 2009)

wohic said:


> Trust me it would get lost in a separate section, we had a sub forum when the new AWB was being proposed, it was only used by Tska and one or two others..... this is higher profile where it is.
> If you want someone to stumble on info put it where they usually are, dont put it somewhere new .
> As for the front page most people i know bypass that when logging on and come straight to the forum any way


I must admit I personally, never go into the general Herp Chat section though.

Is there anyway it could be copied into the snake and lizard chat main pages?????: victory:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

kumqat said:


> Piece taken from tonight's the Staffordshie Sentinel under the headline
> *Caged protest over reptiles*
> Shoppers can expect to see a human chameleon in a cage as part of a protest about keeping lizards captive. A worker from Lush Cosmetics will get into the costume at it's unit in Hanley's Potteries Shopping Centre at noon tomorrow. Other employees plan to hold posters and hand out leaflets to passers-by as part of a week-long campaign aimed at convincing customers reptiles should not be kept as pets. It comes after Lush directors met with UK campaigning group Animal Protection Agency (APA) for talks about the trade in lizards. Meanwhile, a £2.50 chameleon bath product will be on sale throughout August, with procedes going to the APA.
> :gasp::gasp::gasp::gasp:


Thats really piffed me off. When are they doing this?? I'll go up and counter protest.


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> Thats really piffed me off. When are they doing this?? I'll go up and counter protest.


Dress as a hamster in an acrylic ball :lol2:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

On BBC Radio Sheffield today at around Midday I there is going to be a debate between myself and Tom Langton, scientific expert for the Animal Protection Agency, over the campaign supported by Lush. As I understand it people will be able to phone in and have their say. I assume this will be available to listen to on the web?


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

I'll tune in to that if I can : victory:

I always thought Tom Langton was more involved in native herpetofauna conservation? Though perhaps he'll be talking about the import of pathogens (such as ranavirus) and their effects on our native speces due to the pet trade? I would hope he doesn't try and spout off the rubbish the APA is trying to pass off as 'fact'!


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## Gigantisaurus (Apr 5, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> Here's the letter I sent:


Excellent well thought out and reasoned reply :2thumb:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

This goes straight to the actual radio. Methinks...

BBC iPlayer Console - Listen live - BBC Sheffield


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## Rachelsands (Sep 29, 2009)

I AM P****D OFF!
Why are they soo sure pets in pet shops are wild caught!?
Its actually really rare around here to find wild caught!!
They dont have a frickin clue!


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## venomous111 (Dec 24, 2009)

50%man50%biscuit said:


> There are so many points that could be made about the Lush article, some of them valid such as the WC trade being cruel and often damaging to the animals collected, this is the responsibility of the people purchasing/importing the animals, however there are a few that I take exception to one of which is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I dare them to come to my school:lol2: :devil:


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## Bexie (Dec 20, 2007)

Havn't read all the way through this post as its 25 pages long lol,
so i dont no if this has already been shown?
Sorry if it has,
A Far Cry from Nature

x


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## Bexie (Dec 20, 2007)

Please Join..
Welcome to Facebook


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## Lex (Sep 11, 2008)

I would like to add my two cents please and raise a couple of initial points.

*The Lush philosophy of "Against testing on Animals" is both a contradiction and an act of unrivaled** hypocrisy**.*

First a quote from the LUSH website which I feel shows the flippancy regarding what is, and could be, a potential situation.
"...So feeding a new shampoo to rats won’t guarantee that it’s safe for humans. And really, who eats shampoo anyway!?!"

Well from the top of my head I would say that children, the mentally ill and other domestic mammals are all at high risk from ingesting shampoo.

Now this would naturally be more of a problem 'if' the chemicals used in shampoo's were significantly toxic to mammals (disregarding that is the caustic and mechanical damages done to your digestive tract from eating shampoo). Luckily for soap manufacturers like 'LUSH' the regulatory guidelines are very strict on the lists of chemicals allowed for use within cosmetic products. In fact the regulating body for cosmetics the 'DTI' has lists of chemicals specifically not for use within cosmetics. 
As stated in the 2005 publication by the DTI, '*A Guide to the Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 2004*';
"Regulation 5 (15) added 680 ingredients categorized as carcinogens, mutagens or as substances toxic to reproduction (CMRs) to the list of prohibited ingredients in cosmetics by direct reference to Annex II to the Cosmetics Directive "

At the time of writing this guideline (and still to this day), some experiments are unable to be replicated reliably _in vitro_ and have to be conducted _in vivo. _Experiments pertaining to the effects on reproduction, and carcinogenic effects on biological systems (as opposed to cell line testing on a selection of common cell types) are two examples. A paper published at a similar time to the release of this guideline in fact stated that "The performance of these models supports the contention that they can serve as alternatives to _in vivo_ screening. Although none has been validated to the point that it can completely replace _in vivo_ testing" - *Alternatives to Toxicity Testing in Animals: Challenges and Opportunities *George P. Daston and Pauline McNamee.

So by very virtue the guideline (like many others) is based on a doctrine already established using animal testing to establish the lists of chemicals unfit for use within cosmetics.

*So that deals with the contradiction, and now in closing I would like to briefly cover the hypocrisy.*

The DTI regulations clearly states in Regulation 5 (7) “The Cosmetics Directive bans the testing of finished cosmetic products on animals in any territory of the EU from 11th September 2004 and the testing of ingredients, or combinations of ingredients, from 11th March 2009, where the testing is undertaken in order to satisfy the requirements of the Directive. The UK Government has already had a ban in place for a number of years that has a similar effect.”

‘Lush’ has not solely chosen to stop animal testing for the well being of animals, as of last year it became THE LAW. Prior however to 2004 EU regulations were still in place to safeguard the wellbeing of humans, meaning that all cosmetics sold for humans would have HAD to have been tested first on animals _then_ on humans. With refinement of cell line testing having only been introduced recently and with a great deal of scepticism surrounding its efficacy in regards to many forms of testing, any work prior to this date would have to have probably needed to be vindicated by testing done on animals, if not the finished products then certainly the ingredients which made them. 

So in closing although they do not (or no longer) test on animals the business that they are in made necessary the testing on animals for many _many_ decades and still perpetuates the necessity for animals testing in other sectors of indusry.


Ultimately it is like claiming you are becoming a vegetarian when there is no meat left to eat.


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Translated for the skim-readers 



Lex said:


> I would like to add my two cents please and raise a couple of initial points.
> 
> *The Lush philosophy of "Against testing on Animals" is both a contradiction and an act of unrivaled** hypocrisy**.*


I found this out this morning...



Lex said:


> First a quote from the LUSH website which I feel shows the flippancy regarding what is, and could be, a potential situation.
> "...So feeding a new shampoo to rats won’t guarantee that it’s safe for humans. And really, who eats shampoo anyway!?!"
> 
> Well from the top of my head I would say that children, the mentally ill and other domestic mammals are all at high risk from ingesting shampoo.


Lush joke about something that actually could be an actual health risk.



Lex said:


> Now this would naturally be more of a problem 'if' the chemicals used in shampoo's were significantly toxic to mammals (disregarding that is the caustic and mechanical damages done to your digestive tract from eating shampoo). Luckily for soap manufacturers like 'LUSH' the regulatory guidelines are very strict on the lists of chemicals allowed for use within cosmetic products.


Lucky for them there's not much of a decision to make in deciding which products are 'safe' to use - there's laws and guidelines that tell them what they can and can't use.



Lex said:


> In fact the regulating body for cosmetics the 'DTI' has lists of chemicals specifically not for use within cosmetics.
> As stated in the 2005 publication by the DTI, '*A Guide to the Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 2004*';
> "Regulation 5 (15) added 680 ingredients categorized as carcinogens, mutagens or as substances toxic to reproduction (CMRs) to the list of prohibited ingredients in cosmetics by direct reference to Annex II to the Cosmetics Directive "


The official body decided which chemicals can't be used by testing them on animals.



Lex said:


> At the time of writing this guideline (and still to this day), some experiments are unable to be replicated reliably _in vitro_ and have to be conducted _in vivo. _Experiments pertaining to the effects on reproduction, and carcinogenic effects on biological systems (as opposed to cell line testing on a selection of common cell types) are two examples. A paper published at a similar time to the release of this guideline in fact stated that "The performance of these models supports the contention that they can serve as alternatives to _in vivo_ screening. Although none has been validated to the point that it can completely replace _in vivo_ testing" - *Alternatives to Toxicity Testing in Animals: Challenges and Opportunities *George P. Daston and Pauline McNamee.


There are a few other methods of testing, but generally it has to be done on animals (not sure if this is specific to the cosmetics industry though?)



Lex said:


> So by very virtue the guideline (like many others) is based on a doctrine already established using animal testing to establish the lists of chemicals unfit for use within cosmetics.
> 
> *So that deals with the contradiction, and now in closing I would like to briefly cover the hypocrisy.*


They use this list of chemicals that have been tested on animals to make their own guidelines on which ingredients they will and won't use. Without the animal testing, There would be no guidelines about what they can and can't use in the cosmetics 



Lex said:


> The DTI regulations clearly states in Regulation 5 (7) “The Cosmetics Directive bans the testing of finished cosmetic products on animals in any territory of the EU from 11th September 2004 and the testing of ingredients, or combinations of ingredients, from 11th March 2009, where the testing is undertaken in order to satisfy the requirements of the Directive. The UK Government has already had a ban in place for a number of years that has a similar effect.”
> 
> ‘Lush’ has not solely chosen to stop animal testing for the well being of animals, as of last year it became THE LAW. Prior however to 2004 EU regulations were still in place to safeguard the wellbeing of humans, meaning that all cosmetics sold for humans would have HAD to have been tested first on animals _then_ on humans. With refinement of cell line testing having only been introduced recently and with a great deal of scepticism surrounding its efficacy in regards to many forms of testing, any work prior to this date would have to have probably needed to be vindicated by testing done on animals, if not the finished products then certainly the ingredients which made them.
> 
> ...


Lush started their campaign against animal testing the same year that the same testing was made illegal in the EU. They would have had to abide by these laws regardless, but they made it into their marketing point.


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## Sephiroth (May 1, 2007)

**starry11** said:


> Oh ffs they have a new video up. Even more emotive garbage to suck people in to buying stuff.
> *
> YouTube - Lush Cosmetics - APA Chameleon Campaign*


New video on youtube from Lush

Bet they would love to hear the reptile community's feedback (in the form of video comments) :whistling2:


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