# we need to do something



## ichis-mom (May 25, 2008)

all of us that have exotic mammals are going to have to do something (im not sure what) but as they are becoming more popular and there in the papers there getting wrong advice and are thinking there "cool" when there actually really hard to care for i.e the sugar gliders in the news this week.i get a lot of people coming up to me saying my skunks cool and they want one i try and inform them of how hard and time consuming they are and it discourages the ones who want them for "coolness" but with all the press giving wrong info and no rescues for them what can we do? if somethings not done soon it could be possible they ban them because they can be dangerous if there not treated and handled right and its not the animals fault but this is what the u.k dose to animals they dont understand:devil:


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## memzy emma (Aug 19, 2008)

I quite agree. I'm not sure what can be done but something needs to be set up for the exotic animals over here.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Maybe they should be made to come on here. I think Skunks are gorgeous but after reading other peoples experiences with them I now know that they are not for me. I couldnt cope with the stress:lol2: I totally agree that people need to know all pros and cons of keeping these and other exotics including proper care feeding etc otherwise they will be needing their own rescue


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

totally agree with you 100% BUT.............someone thats bought a pet for x amount wont give it up to a rescue or free to knowledged home so not alot that can be done 

what will happen is more of these animals will be purchased then sold on 

if a breeder of these animals was to make a contract they would have to be rich to buy any animal back that someone couldnt own anymore so its a hard one really an i dont think much can be done


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

I think a lot of breeders are probably (hopefully) responsible enough to offer to take back an animal and refund the cost if the owner can't cope. When I first collected Ben from Lou, she said outright that if I was really struggling with him or decided I didn't want him, she'd come to me to take him back - that is a responsible breeder :no1:

Even though I'm pressing on with Ben and it hasn't been easy, I don't want to give him up but I am committed to him, whereas, as Emma said, if someone has paid a lot for an animal they think they're stuck with it and the animal will only suffer for that. 

Not sure what can be done about this aside from all breeders doing some kind of a background check on their potential buyers - I mean just a little quiz, maybe over the phone or in person if possible, asking them questions about how to care for the animal, just to show someone's done their research. Even though I had never seen a Gambian in real life I'd done soem reading on how to care for them so I was at least somewhat prepared for Ben, care-wise - behaviour and training was a different matter!!


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

I guess not breeding your own is one way to help...


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

missk said:


> I guess not breeding your own is one way to help...


Fair enough, but I believe some breeders out there do so not just for the love of the animal, but to encourage responsible keeping - one possible danger of a reduction in UK breeders of exotics is an increased demand for wild-caught creatures - which I don't think I have to tell anyone is the greater evil. 

Whilst my toads and one of my millipedes are wild-caught, being WC is definitely a greater stress on a mammal such as a glider, skunk or pouched rat, and would lead to an animal that is in complete distress at being plucked from its natural habitat, possibly abused by whoever has taken it, transported by car/boat/airplane etc, and having never been properly handled by a person before, is likely to be afraid, bitey, and reclusive. These qualities make it a bad pet (although probably cheaper than a CB one). If it's a 'poor' pet and someone hasn't paid much for it, they're likely to dump it or mistreat it.

I don't breed but that's my choice (and I don't have enough room). But I support responsible breeding and for as long as people want to keep exotics, there should be proper breeders available to help them.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

Grumpymouth said:


> Fair enough, but I believe some breeders out there do so not just for the love of the animal, but to encourage responsible keeping - one possible danger of a reduction in UK breeders of exotics is an increased demand for wild-caught creatures - which I don't think I have to tell anyone is the greater evil.
> 
> Whilst my toads and one of my millipedes are wild-caught, being WC is definitely a greater stress on a mammal such as a glider, skunk or pouched rat, and would lead to an animal that is in complete distress at being plucked from its natural habitat, possibly abused by whoever has taken it, transported by car/boat/airplane etc, and having never been properly handled by a person before, is likely to be afraid, bitey, and reclusive. These qualities make it a bad pet (although probably cheaper than a CB one). If it's a 'poor' pet and someone hasn't paid much for it, they're likely to dump it or mistreat it.
> 
> I don't breed but that's my choice (and I don't have enough room). But I support responsible breeding and for as long as people want to keep exotics, there should be proper breeders available to help them.


 
I guess i should have specified i'm thinking of the mammals here, i don't think many people would opt for a wild skunk or sugar glider. The reasoning behind my thought was: more breeders=lower price=available to more people as a less thought out purchase.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Grumpymouth said:


> Fair enough, but I believe some breeders out there do so not just for the love of the animal, but to encourage responsible keeping - one possible danger of a reduction in UK breeders of exotics is an increased demand for wild-caught creatures - which I don't think I have to tell anyone is the greater evil.
> 
> Whilst my toads and one of my millipedes are wild-caught, being WC is definitely a greater stress on a mammal such as a glider, skunk or pouched rat, and would lead to an animal that is in complete distress at being plucked from its natural habitat, possibly abused by whoever has taken it, transported by car/boat/airplane etc, and having never been properly handled by a person before, is likely to be afraid, bitey, and reclusive. These qualities make it a bad pet (although probably cheaper than a CB one). If it's a 'poor' pet and someone hasn't paid much for it, they're likely to dump it or mistreat it.
> 
> I don't breed but that's my choice (and I don't have enough room). But I support responsible breeding and for as long as people want to keep exotics, there should be proper breeders available to help them.


seconded thirded and fourthded:no1: lol

Another threat is import bans.

A ban was placed on the import of African rodents into the USA. Same could happen here.

If it did, and there were no UK breeders with a nucleus of those species over here, they would vanish from the UK and that would be a great shame. My African rodents are a joy to own and learn from. 

On a wider scale, if there are no private keepers/ breeders, animals can become extinct if they receive no attention from the zoos. Private breeders can have an important part to play in conservation.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I think if responsible breeders stopped breeidng them to try and stop irresponsible owners, you'll just get more crap breeders who are only after the quick quid and their animals would suffer for it (with poor nutrition, housing, care in general).


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

missk said:


> I guess i should have specified i'm thinking of the mammals here, i don't think many people would opt for a wild skunk or sugar glider. The reasoning behind my thought was: more breeders=lower price=available to more people as a less thought out purchase.


 
Low prices are an issue, I agree. 'Throw away' prices are bad news but can usually only be placed by importers. It costs a lot to breed most exotics because they are difficult to breed and don't have many litters etc.

As for people not opting for wild caught though, unfortunately they may not know! Imported animals sold to pet shops may well be wild caught.

Some skunks have come from fur ranches too so for some people, wild caught is not the only down side. Obviously people have different opinions, some find this acceptable, some don't.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> Another threat is import bans.
> 
> A ban was placed on the import of African rodents into the USA. Same could happen here.


Good point Pouchie. From what I gather, a major reason for imported Gambians/Emins being banned in the USA was because they carried monkeypox, which began affecting the native animals such as prairie dogs. My assumption is that a number of these imported rodents were dumped or released after the owners realised they couldn't care for them. :whip: They probably didn't cost a lot either, so it didn't seem like much of a loss - obviously the buyers weren't thinking of the animals nor their impact on the native environment :bash:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Grumpymouth said:


> Good point Pouchie. From what I gather, a major reason for imported Gambians/Emins being banned in the USA was because they carried monkeypox, which began affecting the native animals such as prairie dogs. My assumption is that a number of these imported rodents were dumped or released after the owners realised they couldn't care for them. :whip: They probably didn't cost a lot either, so it didn't seem like much of a loss - obviously the buyers weren't thinking of the animals nor their impact on the native environment :bash:


 
I believe it was one outbreak of monkeypox that lead to the ban. The origin was a breeder who kept both Gambians and Prairie Dogs so they didn't really know which species carried the monkeypox in.

A second case of bad press for Gambians is a breeder dumped 8 pairs in Florida Keys and they are breeding there. In fact they are destroying local flora and fauna and proving impossible to eradicate.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> A second case of bad press for Gambians is a breeder dumped 8 pairs in Florida Keys and they are breeding there. In fact they are destroying local flora and fauna and proving impossible to eradicate.


That's terrible! It hurts to think of all those poor rats being exterminated when they should never have been in that situation in the first place. Not to mention the impact on the local wildlife. That really angries up my blood. I hope that breeder is now suffering from some kind of horrible and disfiguring skin disease (not good karma I know, but look what he/she's done).


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Grumpymouth said:


> That's terrible! It hurts to think of all those poor rats being exterminated when they should never have been in that situation in the first place. Not to mention the impact on the local wildlife. That really angries up my blood. I hope that breeder is now suffering from some kind of horrible and disfiguring skin disease (not good karma I know, but look what he/she's done).


 
I think there is a mentality of 'they are just rats' 'in fact they are GIANT rats, even more reason to kill them all quick!' 'they shouldn't be there, they are causing damage, kill kill kill!'

No, they shouldn't be there, no it is not fair on the Florida wildlife and eco system and no, its not the rat's fault.

If you keep them, look past the 'giant rat' thing and they are the most majestic, almost regal creatures thats hardly resemble a rat at all to me.

It is sad to think of them being hunted down like vermin.


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

LOL that sounds a bit silly as in Africa they ARE vermin. AND bushmeat.

Nice.

Anyway, you know what I mean. They were intended to go into private collections in America not to be released like that.


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## Grumpymouth (Jun 28, 2007)

Pouchie said:


> LOL that sounds a bit silly as in Africa they ARE vermin. AND bushmeat.
> 
> Nice.
> 
> Anyway, you know what I mean. They were intended to go into private collections in America not to be released like that.


Funny you should say they're bushmeat Pouchie...at least three times of an eve I tell Ben I want to eat him and go into rather graphic detail about how delicious he would be...I drew the line when I found myself massaging him with butter and herbs and selecting a wine...:mf_dribble:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Grumpymouth said:


> Funny you should say they're bushmeat Pouchie...at least three times of an eve I tell Ben I want to eat him and go into rather graphic detail about how delicious he would be...I drew the line when I found myself massaging him with butter and herbs and selecting a wine...:mf_dribble:


 
But did you have the camp fire going with the spit over? :lol2:

And a fine Chianti would be perfect ... don't forget the fava beans:no1:


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## Buriram (Jul 17, 2006)

Grumpymouth said:


> Fair enough, but I believe some breeders out there do so not just for the love of the animal, but to encourage responsible keeping - one possible danger of a reduction in UK breeders of exotics is an increased demand for wild-caught creatures - which I don't think I have to tell anyone is the greater evil.
> 
> Whilst my toads and one of my millipedes are wild-caught, being WC is definitely a greater stress on a mammal such as a glider, skunk or pouched rat, and would lead to an animal that is in complete distress at being plucked from its natural habitat, possibly abused by whoever has taken it, transported by car/boat/airplane etc, and having never been properly handled by a person before, is likely to be afraid, bitey, and reclusive. These qualities make it a bad pet (although probably cheaper than a CB one). If it's a 'poor' pet and someone hasn't paid much for it, they're likely to dump it or mistreat it.
> 
> I don't breed but that's my choice (and I don't have enough room). But I support responsible breeding and for as long as people want to keep exotics, there should be proper breeders available to help them.


Breeding of mammals as far as I have seen on this forum seems to be largely irresponsible (probably not intentionally so - as regards rarer captive species such as genets and callitrichids other than C. jaccus) as few seem to carry out PVA studies prior to establishment of founder populations. This manifests itself in extremely low allelic variance and heterozygosity in the UK populations of various species eg genets and the like. Thus if private keepers in the UK are seriously concerned with holding a viable gene pool of part of the metapopulation then maybe they should run stud books and apply the basic principles of conservation biology such as the 50/500 rule to ensure their species do not lose genetic diversity - as is becoming evident even in more commonly held primates recently with the emergence of 6th digits etc. Remember without serious attention and study paid to heterozygosity of your animals, then 'resposible breeding' cannot be commenced even though excellent routines of husbandry may be carried out.


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## XoxOriptideOxoX (Jul 11, 2008)

ichis-mom said:


> all of us that have exotic mammals are going to have to do something (im not sure what) but as they are becoming more popular and there in the papers there getting wrong advice and are thinking there "cool" when there actually really hard to care for i.e the sugar gliders in the news this week.i get a lot of people coming up to me saying my skunks cool and they want one i try and inform them of how hard and time consuming they are and it discourages the ones who want them for "coolness" but with all the press giving wrong info and no rescues for them what can we do? if somethings not done soon it could be possible they ban them because they can be dangerous if there not treated and handled right and its not the animals fault but this is what the u.k dose to animals they dont understand:devil:



its kida not the same but one of my younger bros m8s ( who i hate, i want to get his head and smack it of the wall ) came up to me in my room and said " will, how much did you tort coast and its viv? I realy want one, maby i will breed them " and he had obv done no reserch so i had just said " well the tort was 300 quid and the viv and cabernit was 400, and you need to keep the light on for 15+ hourse a day and you need to give him and outdoor run, he can only eat weeds and needs supliments " this put him well of lol :whistling2:


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## Pouchie (Feb 9, 2008)

Buriram said:


> Breeding of mammals as far as I have seen on this forum seems to be largely irresponsible (probably not intentionally so - as regards rarer captive species such as genets and callitrichids other than C. jaccus) as few seem to carry out PVA studies prior to establishment of founder populations. This manifests itself in extremely low allelic variance and heterozygosity in the UK populations of various species eg genets and the like. Thus if private keepers in the UK are seriously concerned with holding a viable gene pool of part of the metapopulation then maybe they should run stud books and apply the basic principles of conservation biology such as the 50/500 rule to ensure their species do not lose genetic diversity - as is becoming evident even in more commonly held primates recently with the emergence of 6th digits etc. Remember without serious attention and study paid to heterozygosity of your animals, then 'resposible breeding' cannot be commenced even though excellent routines of husbandry may be carried out.


I don't know if that is fair comment because I don't know any genet breeders, primate breeders or even keepers, personally.

It is not relevant to many exotic rodent breeders (yet) because we are so early on in breeding programmes and I see a lot of responsibility with regard to using unrelated pairs. Yes, line breeding goes on and in an ideal world would not but these animals are not accessible enough to the hobby breeder to always use completely unrelated animals.

Please can you explain the 50/500 rule to me?


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