# Raptor's????



## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

after reading earth-angel's thread about banded raptors not being real raptors with everyone saying differant things, im getting abit confused, what is a real raptor?? as you never see many with no markings on, they all seem to have patches or stripes, so out of mine what are they?? raptors or talbino eclipse's, i just dont understand, sorry if this sounds silly :blush:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizard-pictures/601265-raptor-enigma-eclipse-mack-snow.html 

thanks for any help : victory:


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

True RAPTOR should be patternless stripe and tangerine. However, Tremper albino eclipse seems to have become the norm now, with "true RAPTORs" being more desirable.


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

so all you can have on them is a stripe no spots, im only confused as i have a eclipse which is patternless but has spots on her? so the raptors that have spots on are not patternless? if any of mine are classed as patternless which ones are they?? sorry again if im being stupied :blush:


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

53bird said:


> after reading earth-angel's thread about banded raptors not being real raptors with everyone saying differant things, im getting abit confused, what is a real raptor?? as you never see many with no markings on, they all seem to have patches or stripes, so out of mine what are they?? raptors or talbino eclipse's, i just dont understand, sorry if this sounds silly :blush:
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizard-pictures/601265-raptor-enigma-eclipse-mack-snow.html
> 
> thanks for any help : victory:


It is a confusing area. A true RAPTOR is a Talbino eclipse patternless reverse striped striped. 

This is really good, And what the goal of a RAPTOR should be.









Non-Talbino, Eclipse patternless reverse striped.









The main area to clear is the Reverse stripe. You can have flank stripping and spotting, 
Yours is likly a Eclipse reverse striped, but the lines are hard to see on strong Tangerine leo's.


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

i think i understand lol, thanks for helping me : victory:


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

I had a patternless eclipse and she had spots on head and tail but no spots on her body. 

The fewer markings on a RAPTOR the better but a few orange splodges or stripey marks are acceptable IMO. A true RAPTOR cannot be banded as the P in RAPTOR stands for patternless. I don't understand why banded leos have been called RAPTORs by anyone (and that includes the big breeders!!)


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

maybe to up the price a bit?


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## nuttybabez (Jul 21, 2007)

Yeah thats probably the reason!!


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

pigglywiggly said:


> maybe to up the price a bit?


Nail, head.


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

i dont see any problem calling a banded raptor a banded raptor. I mean they carry the gentics of a raptor so it has the raptor in it aswell as another influence from probably its parents (the banding) a mack snow is still called a mack snow despite how yellow it is because of what it can produce. Or should we be calling a mack snow what is yellow a normal? I think not.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

> i dont see any problem calling a banded raptor a banded raptor. I mean they carry the gentics of a raptor so it has the raptor in it aswell as another influence from probably its parents (the banding) a mack snow is still called a mack snow despite how yellow it is because of what it can produce. Or should we be calling a mack snow what is yellow a normal? I think not.


The problem with banded RAPTORs is the chance of producing patternless offspring is greatly reduced. Mack snow will always produce Mack offspring, no matter how yellow it is.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

MrMike said:


> The problem with banded RAPTORs is the chance of producing patternless offspring is greatly reduced. Mack snow will always produce Mack offspring, no matter how yellow it is.


And if the 'p' in RAPTOR is referring to 'patternless' then if it's not patternless (rev stripe) then it's not what the acronym stands for. IMO a 'banded raptor' is a tremper eclipse. For example a Bell albino without a dorsal stripe couldn't be described as striped could it? It's just a Bell albino......


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> The problem with banded RAPTORs is the chance of producing patternless offspring is greatly reduced. Mack snow will always produce Mack offspring, no matter how yellow it is.


Yes but there is still a chance and surely because of that then you have to consider it to be a raptor of some kind.If we called it a tremper eclipse then paired it with a raptor and a raptor popped out what do you then call the hatchling as one raptor cant produce anymore raptors as the gene is recessive. Think its far simpler to call them banded raptors as theres a chance they can produce raptor offspring aswell as a banded raptor. But its a matter of oppinion and choice you dont have to call a banded raptor that you can easily call what the hell you like.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

daveplymouth said:


> If we called it a tremper eclipse then paired it with a raptor and a raptor popped out what do you then call the hatchling as one raptor cant produce anymore raptors as the gene is recessive.


The Eclipse and Tremper genes are recessive. The Patternless reversed stripe and tangerine (ORange) are polygenetic.
Look at it this way.... A red stripe x a red stripe outcross showing tangerine and stripe is likely to produce something that could be classed as a red stripe.
A red stripe x a red stripe outcross that is actually banded and not very tangerine is not likely to produce anything that could be classed as a red stripe.
A red stripe outcross x normal is likely to produce banded hatchlings that can not be classed as even a red stripe outcross.

Now look at is as the red stripe being RAPTOR but involving 2 recessive genes that are part of the make up.


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> The Eclipse and Tremper genes are recessive. The Patternless reversed stripe and tangerine (ORange) are polygenetic.
> Look at it this way.... A red stripe x a red stripe outcross showing tangerine and stripe is likely to produce something that could be classed as a red stripe.
> A red stripe x a red stripe outcross that is actually banded and not very tangerine is not likely to produce anything that could be classed as a red stripe.
> A red stripe outcross x normal is likely to produce banded hatchlings that can not be classed as even a red stripe outcross.
> ...


Why cant people have a oppinion on this forum, theres always people trying to prove there tight or someone else is wrong. Fact is a banded raptor is capable of prouducing another raptor therefore for me it can be called a raptor. I dont really care about the genes of it.Its black and white for me.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

daveplymouth said:


> Why cant people have a oppinion on this forum, theres always people trying to prove there tight or someone else is wrong. Fact is a banded raptor is capable of prouducing another raptor therefore for me it can be called a raptor. I dont really care about the genes of it.Its black and white for me.


Sorry, I've obviously hit a nerve which was not my intentions. I wasnt trying to override your opinion, I was just trying to emphasise the fact that although "you dont care about the genes of it", genetics are the most crucial fact when it comes to morphs, so you have to understand how genetics work and follow their rules.
Fact is Banded RAPTOR is also not capable of producing a RAPTOR so where do we stand now?
Do you agree with some of these statements?
-My hypo het albino is capable of producing sunglow when paired to an albino or another sunglow so therefore its a sunglow.
-My Normal het eclipse when paired to my raptor gave me babies will all black eyes so my normal must be eclipse.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i like what you did there


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> Sorry, I've obviously hit a nerve which was not my intentions. I wasnt trying to override your opinion, I was just trying to emphasise the fact that although "you dont care about the genes of it", genetics are the most crucial fact when it comes to morphs, so you have to understand how genetics work and follow their rules.
> Fact is Banded RAPTOR is also not capable of producing a RAPTOR so where do we stand now?
> Do you agree with some of these statements?
> -My hypo het albino is capable of producing sunglow when paired to an albino or another sunglow so therefore its a sunglow.
> -My Normal het eclipse when paired to my raptor gave me babies will all black eyes so my normal must be eclipse.


i have a freind who paired a banded raptor to a enigma het raptor and produced amongst other things 2 raptors. So saying a banded raptor cant produce a raptor "fact" is actually nonsense.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

daveplymouth said:


> i have a freind who paired a banded raptor to a enigma het raptor and produced amongst other things 2 raptors. So saying a banded raptor cant produce a raptor "fact" is actually nonsense.


By RAPTOR i presume you mean a fully patternless one?
In which case both will have clearly come from RAPTOR parentage, hence why in this case RAPTORs were produced.

A fact is something that has been proven cannot be argued with and for both of our examples they are fact, however yours needed a little tweaking.
FACT Banded RAPTORs have the potential if put to the correct partner to produce true RAPTORs, the further down the line you get though the likeliness lessens.
FACT Banded RAPTORs will more likely not produce true RAPTORs especially when not paired to a good quality true RAPTOR.

By true RAPTOR i am referring to one that is almost patternless, a nice tangerine colour, carrying both the eclipse and tremper albino genes in homozygous form.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

Dave, as far as saying 'can no one have an opinion on this forum' then yes, you have one, I have one. 
The fact that they differ is irrelevant ! I am entitled to mine and you are to yours.
Or are you saying you are right and I and others are wrong? In which case it's you that is insisting that no one can have an opinion..... :whistling2:
At the end of the day if you want to call something a banded raptor feel free, but by the definition of raptor provided by the person who gave it that trade name, it's a contradiction in terms.


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> By RAPTOR i presume you mean a fully patternless one?
> In which case both will have clearly come from RAPTOR parentage, hence why in this case RAPTORs were produced.
> 
> A fact is something that has been proven cannot be argued with and for both of our examples they are fact, however yours needed a little tweaking.
> ...


Funny how in your first sentence you say "By RAPTOR i presume you mean a fully patternless one?" 

Yet in your last sentence you say "By true RAPTOR i am referring to one that is almost patternless"

So what is it? I cant answer your question if you yourself dont know what a actual raptor is.

Fact is my freind produced to lovely orange raptors with minimal spotting/blotches on the back. Now whether you consider this a raptor or not is clearly something you dont know yourself but for me they where true raptors.


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> Dave, as far as saying 'can no one have an opinion on this forum' then yes, you have one, I have one.
> The fact that they differ is irrelevant ! I am entitled to mine and you are to yours.
> Or are you saying you are right and I and others are wrong? In which case it's you that is insisting that no one can have an opinion..... :whistling2:
> At the end of the day if you want to call something a banded raptor feel free, but by the definition if raptor provided by the person who gave it that trade name, it's a contradiction in terms.


I stated my oppinion, now sam has decided it is fact that a banded raptor cant produce a raptor. I know this not to be fact so im just saying that.with regards to the naming yes thats about oppinion but me and sam are not talking about the name now are we. So i see what your saying but this is now about facts rather then opinions

Also can i just point out i am not trying to start a argument nor am i typing anything that is intended to annoy/upset people.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

Re read my post I clearly say ... I presume. That is indicating that I am guessing what YOU mean when you refer to a RAPTOR.
I then go on to say... By true RAPTOR I mean. That indicates what I mean when referring to a RAPTOR.

I know what I mean, and I'm going on the definition as per the creators description.
Ruby eyed, Albino, Patternless, Tremper, ORange.

Taken from Trempers website...
"This new patternless gene is totally separate from the "leucistic" and blizzard lines, and therefore, will combine genetically with all other known morphs. Notice that it lacks any banded pattern so often seen in all hypo variations, which have been derived from the "Florida" strain. The A.P.T.O.R. does not carry the gene to make the banded body pattern. It hatches 90-100% patternless (see above photo) and often carries the gene for reverse stripe. Any pattern seen is in the form of small light-colored, mid-dorsal, spots, circles or faint lines, which are often overtaken by the tangerine during the first 8 months of growth."


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> Re read my post I clearly say ... I presume. That is indicating that I am guessing what YOU mean when you refer to a RAPTOR.
> I then go on to say... By true RAPTOR I mean. That indicates what I mean when referring to a RAPTOR.
> 
> I know what I mean, and I'm going on the definition as per the creators description.
> Ruby eyed, Albino, Patternless, Tremper, ORange.


Ok so he did not produce raptors then along with thousands of other people who thought they had.
These pics are 2 of my collection
First i consider to be a raptor and second i claim it to be a tremper eclipse


















My freind produced two that resemble the first one. So do you think that the first one is a raptor or should i be calling it a tremper eclipse?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

You don't have this problem if you say. The albino trait, The eye trait, Then the body pattern:whistling2:.

Talbino eclipse normal.
Talbino eclipse aberrant.
Talbino eclipse hyper aberrant.
Talbino eclipse strped.
Talbino eclipse reverse striped.
Talbino eclipes patternless reverse striped.

Really it's that esay: victory:. Say what you see:whistling2:.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

daveplymouth said:


> Ok so he did not produce raptors then along with thousands of other people who thought they had.
> These pics are 2 of my collection
> First i consider to be a raptor and second i claim it to be a tremper eclipse
> image
> ...


1/ Talbino eclipse reverse striped tangerine.
2/ Talbino eclipes reverse striped.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

We're going off topic here...
Your discrepancy is regarding banding. The 2 example photos shown are nothing to do with your original point!
I don't want this to turn into an argument, i think we will have to agree to disagree.


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> We're going off topic here...
> Your discrepancy is regarding banding. The 2 example photos shown are nothing to do with your original point!
> I don't want this to turn into an argument, i think we will have to agree to disagree.


Yes my discrepancy is to do with banding but you have stated that a true raptor should be completely patternless and thus a banded raptor cant produce this. Im saying that a banded raptor produced ones very similar to the one i have posted. So do you consider that to be a raptor or not? Answer the question then the argument is done with becasue then its down to oppinion of what is a actual raptor and whats not.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

sam12345 said:


> By true RAPTOR I mean. That indicates what I mean when referring to a RAPTOR.
> 
> I know what I mean, and I'm going on the definition as per the creators description.
> Ruby eyed, Albino, Patternless, Tremper, ORange.
> ...


I think that's Sam's answer.....


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

I agree with everyone on this matter because your all right really! and this arguement is gonna go on for ages!
this is all down to the Tremper man calling morphs whatever suits him at the time,
I agree with Sam 100% on the quote from that he pinned up as the description of the Raptor was an abbreviation but also that is a very old quote! nowaday he calls every Tremper albino with red eyes a Raptor as its has now become a knickname for them, and this is where I agree with Dave even though I know what a true Raptor is and what it looks like, time moves on and were not gonna stop all the breeders around the world calling them Raptor even if their Banded,striped,patternless or whatever, 
what Tremper now calls a Raptor in the old true discription is a red eyed patternless Tremper albino! thats when he has them available! he doesnt include the orange anymore either, anyway thats the way I look at it and I dont think anyone will win this debate to be honest, just live with it lets all have a pint together at Kiddy next week:lol2:.


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> I agree with everyone on this matter because your all right really! and this arguement is gonna go on for ages!
> this is all down to the Tremper man calling morphs whatever suits him at the time,
> I agree with Sam 100% on the quote from that he pinned up as the description of the Raptor was an abbreviation but also that is a very old quote! nowaday he calls every Tremper albino with red eyes a Raptor as its has now become a knickname for them, and this is where I agree with Dave even though I know what a true Raptor is and what it looks like, time moves on and were not gonna stop all the breeders around the world calling them Raptor even if their Banded,striped,patternless or whatever,
> what Tremper now calls a Raptor in the old true discription is a red eyed patternless Tremper albino! thats when he has them available! he doesnt include the orange anymore either, anyway thats the way I look at it and I dont think anyone will win this debate to be honest, just live with it lets all have a pint together at Kiddy next week:lol2:


Im not going to kiddy so you can all have a bitch behind my back. And call me a argumentative little so and so:lol2:


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

daveplymouth said:


> Im not going to kiddy so you can all have a bitch behind my back. And call me a argumentative little so and so:lol2:


 
Chill Dude that wont happen! you know me I`d tell you to your face:Na_Na_Na_Na: I said I agreed with you as well, what do you want? blood!:lol2:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

daveplymouth said:


> Im not going to kiddy so you can all have a bitch behind my back. And call me a argumentative little so and so:lol2:


Oh we will......
:Na_Na_Na_Na:
:lol2:

Nah, I think the water has got muddied on this, but I think we should all just go with our own take on it. At the end of the day if we don't think it's a raptor, who cares !!!!
: victory:


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## daveplymouth (May 26, 2009)

> Chill Dude that wont happen! you know me I`d tell you to your face:Na_Na_Na_Na: I said I agreed with you as well, what do you want? blood!:lol2:


Grrrrr you agreed with that lot also. Thought you where a nice guy:lol2:
Has the dog stopped barking yet? :lol2:



> Oh we will......
> :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> :lol2:
> 
> ...


Yeh it has, lets talk about carrot tail instead, ha ha


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

wow what happened to this thread, i didnt relise it would get this heated :lol2:

at least i know what it all means now :whistling2:


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

Big Red One said:


> Oh we will......
> :Na_Na_Na_Na:
> :lol2:
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you mark, but I`ll have a cuppa tea at Kiddy please not muddied water! yea I know only me will find that funny but what the hell :2thumb:


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

daveplymouth said:


> Grrrrr you agreed with that lot also. Thought you where a nice guy:lol2:
> Has the dog stopped barking yet? :lol2:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

daveplymouth said:


> Im not going to kiddy so you can all have a bitch behind my back. And call me a argumentative little so and so:lol2:





tonkaz0 said:


> I agree with you mark, but I`ll have a cuppa tea at Kiddy please not muddied water! yea I know only me will find that funny but what the hell :2thumb:


It was a pint a minute ago!

Haha


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