# Please check...........



## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

...............my calculations to see whether or not, at long last, I have understood the genetics when more than one mutant allelle is in play.

In example A I have crossed a Butter to a Butter het for stripe and in example B I have crossed a Butter het for stripe to a Butter het for stripe. 

Please check to see whether I have given the correct code to each morph and whether my conclusion on the expected offspring is correct.

*Example A*
*aaaa . caccac . M+M+ (Butter)*
*aaaa . caccac . M+Ms (Butter het for Stripe)*

*A locus - aaaa only*
*CA locus - caccac only*
*M locus - FM+M+ OM+Ms IM+M+ LM+Ms*

*Offspring*
*50% Butter (aaaa . caccac . M+M+)*
*50% Butter het for Stripe (aaaa . caccac . M+Ms)*


*Example B*
*aaaa . caccac . M+Ms (Butter het for Stripe)*
*aaaa . caccac . M+Ms** (Butter het for Stripe)*

*A locus - aaaa only*
*CA locus - caccac only*
*M locus - FM+M+ OM+Ms IM+Ms LMsMs*

*Offspring*
*25% Butter (aaaa . caccac . M+M+)*
*50% Butter het for Stripe (aaaa . caccac . M**+**Ms)*
*25% Butter Stripe (aaaa . caccac . MsMs)*


I look forward to hearing your feedback. Thanks.
Patrick.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

All your predicted offspring are correct, so you obviously understand whats going on...your notation on the other hand is a bit nuts :roll:. Have you been using eeji's website for notation? If so then you might like to know that it is actually very irregular notation for genetics, all other animals are actually written another way.

For example

wild type would be: a+
recessive mutation would be a (sometimes written a-)
dominant mutation would be A (sometimes written A-)

It is strange to have double lettering (like cca) for a gene that only has one allele (like caramel) but at the end of the day as long as you're not planning on writing any textbooks then all that matters is that you can see whats going on.

I'm curious what the F, I, O and L stand for?


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks for the response intravenous.

*FOIL* is just a way of remembering how to cross match the possible outcomes of the male/female paired alleles, for example;
*Male Female*
*AB* *CD*
*F*irst gene of male pair (*A*) and first gene of female pair (*C*) = AC
*O*utside pair of genes, being 1st male (*A*) and 2nd female (*D*) = AD
*I*nside pair of genes, being 2nd male (*B*) and 1st female (*C*) = BC 
*L*ast gene of male pair (*B*) and last gene of female pair (*D*) = BD


The double letters are what I thought were the industry recognised Gene symbols. They are the ones quoted in the Cornsnake Morph Guide by Charles Pritzel.

I am so glad I got the right results. This has taken me an age to understand but I think I have finally cracked it!!


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> The double letters are what I thought were the industry recognised Gene symbols. They are the ones quoted in the Cornsnake Morph Guide by Charles Pritzel.


I thought they were industry recognised symbols too, but after some digging it turns out they're just Charles' own personal notation ... there are no industry recognised standards.

I agree with intravenous - it's really odd to have superscripts used at all for loci with only one mutation.

Oh, plus the albino locus in all animals is given the symbol "c". So non-amel should be C, amel should be c, and ultramel should be cu or similar.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> Thanks for the response intravenous.
> 
> *FOIL* is just a way of remembering how to cross match the possible outcomes of the male/female paired alleles, for example;
> *Male Female*
> ...


Ah, ok :smile:...I would imagine your FOIL system is harder to use for animals that are only het for multiple things though. Have you tried an example of that (e.g. normal het caramel, amel and hypo x the same)?

As for the symbols...as long as you understand what is actually going on it shouldn't matter too much, just expect that there might be a bit of confusion when comparing with other people.


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks intravenous....I'll have a go!!

So that's a;

normal het caramel, amel and hypo (Ca+cac . A+aa . H+hh)
x 
normal het caramel, amel and hypo (Ca+cac . A+aa . H+hh)


Regards,
Patrick.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

I'd actually express normal het caramel, amel, hypo as:

Ca/ca, Aa, Hh

Caramel doesn't have any known "other" alleles, so you don't need the third symbol subscript c; Amel, unless you're talking about Ultra, doesn't really need the subscript A for a recessive (because "a" already indicates it's a recessive) and same goes for hypo.

As for wildtype... well, that normal known het hypo, caramel, amel no other known hets I would express as:

Aa C* Ca/ca d* E* Hh L* M* S* Z*

(which is, translated:

Het amel, not visual charcoal, het caramel, not visual bloodred, not visual anery, het hypo, not visual lavender, not visual motley or stripe, not visual sunkissed, not visual cinder)


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Aa C* Ca/ca d* E* Hh L* M* S* Z*
> 
> (which is, translated:
> 
> Het amel, not visual charcoal, het caramel, not visual bloodred, not visual anery, het hypo, not visual lavender, not visual motley or stripe, not visual sunkissed, not visual cinder)


I agree with most of your choices - except as I said previously seems logical to have "C" for amel (since that's the albino locus), which also handily leaves A for anery ...

What would you use for lava? V?


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

intravenous said:


> ...your notation on the other hand is a bit nuts :roll:. Have you been using eeji's website for notation? If so then you might like to know that it is actually very irregular notation for genetics





ballpiefun said:


> The double letters are what I thought were the industry recognised Gene symbols. They are the ones quoted in the Cornsnake Morph Guide by Charles Pritzel.



I picked up on the notation from Chuck too, and have also spotted it in a few other places too. Yes, its his own notation and is a proposed standard (although who its been proposed to I have no idea!) and I hoped it would be picked up by more people, but it doesn't seem to have done 

I think the superscripts are for possible future co-dominant stuff so it can just fall into place.

I must be the only person who finds it really easy to follow!


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

*Bloody Hell...........that was difficult !!*

This is what I get.

If, as I suspect, this is wrong, I would like to send you a spreadsheet of my calculations for you to review and hopefully point out where I have gone wrong. If you are in agreement I should be grateful if you could let me have your e-mail address which can be sent to mine, which is [email protected]


*Ratio ****** **HET*
8/64 **** Wildtype het for Caramel, Amel and Hypo
4/64 **** Wildtype het for Caramel and Amel
4/64 **** Hypo het for Caramel and Amel
4/64 **** Wildtype het for Caramel and Hypo 
2/64 **** Wildtype het for Caramel
2/64 **** Hypo het for Caramel
4/64 **** Amel het for Caramel and Hypo
2/64 **** Amel het for Caramel
2/64 **** Amel and Hypo het for Caramel
4/64 **** Wildtype het for Amel and Hypo
2/64 **** Wildtype het for Amel
2/64 **** Hypo het for Amel
2/64 **** Wildtype het for Hypo
1/64 **** Wildtype
1/64 **** Hypo
2/64 **** Amel het for Hypo
1/64 **** Amel
1/64 **** Amel and Hypo
4/64 **** Caramel het for Amel and Hypo
2/64 **** Caramel het for Amel
2/64 **** Caramel and Hypo het for Amel
2/64 **** Caramel het for Hypo
1/64 **** Caramel
1/64 **** Caramel and Hypo
2/64 **** Caramel and Amel het for Hypo
1/64 **** Caramel and Amel
1/64 **** Caramel, Amel and Hypo


Your help is greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Patrick.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well... you wouldn't actually say "Homozygous wildtype" particularly not when they're ACTUALLY het for something. So:

*Normal 66% het caramel, amel, hypo:*
8/64 Wildtype het for Caramel, Amel and Hypo
4/64 Wildtype het for Caramel and Amel
4/64 Wildtype het for Caramel and Hypo 
2/64 Wildtype het for Caramel
4/64 Wildtype het for Amel and Hypo
2/64 Wildtype het for Amel
2/64 Wildtype het for Hypo
1/64 Wildtype

*Hypo 66% het amel, caramel:*
4/64 **** Hypo het for Caramel and Amel
2/64 **** Hypo het for Caramel
2/64 **** Hypo het for Amel
1/64 **** Hypo

*Amel 66% het caramel, hypo:
*4/64 **** Amel het for Caramel and Hypo
2/64 **** Amel het for Caramel
2/64 **** Amel het for Hypo
1/64 **** Amel

*Hypo Amel 66% het caramel:
*1/64 **** Amel and Hypo
2/64 **** Amel and Hypo het for Caramel

*Caramel 66% het amel, hypo:*
4/64 **** Caramel het for Amel and Hypo
2/64 **** Caramel het for Amel
2/64 **** Caramel het for Hypo
1/64 **** Caramel

*Butter 66% het hypo:*
2/64 **** Caramel and Amel het for Hypo
1/64 **** Caramel and Amel

*Amber 66% het amel:*
1/64 **** Caramel and Hypo 
2/64 **** Caramel and Hypo het for Amel

*Hypo Butter*
1/64 **** Caramel, Amel and Hypo


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> This is what I get.
> 
> If, as I suspect, this is wrong, I would like to send you a spreadsheet of my calculations for you to review and hopefully point out where I have gone wrong. If you are in agreement I should be grateful if you could let me have your e-mail address which can be sent to mine, which is [email protected]


Sorry, I didn't realise it would be such a harsh one , I'll have to go do it now :razz:. I'm interested to see how you did it though? Did you still stick with your FOIL notation?


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

mg: :surrender: !!!!!!!! (generic genetic wizard, i love you!!!!!!! )


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Well... you wouldn't actually say "Homozygous wildtype" particularly not when they're ACTUALLY het for something. So:
> 
> *Normal 66% het caramel, amel, hypo:*
> 8/64 Wildtype het for Caramel, Amel and Hypo
> ...


Other than terminology....how did I do? What is the effect of Hypo on Amel? Where can I see photos of both a Hypo Butter and a Hypo Amel? Are the terms Wildtype and Normal interchangable? Does Homozygous just refer to the appearance of the corn? Your continued guidance is greatly appreciated.
Patrick.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> Other than terminology....how did I do? What is the effect of Hypo on Amel? Where can I see photos of both a Hypo Butter and a Hypo Amel? Are the terms Wildtype and Normal interchangable? Does Homozygous just refer to the appearance of the corn? Your continued guidance is greatly appreciated.
> Patrick.


You got it correct :smile:, Ssthisto has just ordered hers more neatly :razz:.

I don't think hypo has that much of an effect on amel (and butter) since hypo mostly reduces black, which amels don't have.

Wildtype and normal are interchangeable. Homozygous has nothing to do with appearance...homozygous means two the same (i.e. two alleles the same).


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

intravenous said:


> You got it correct :smile:,


YIPEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!! You have no idea what a struggle this has been for me. I nearly gave up on so many different 
occasions.




intravenous said:


> Ssthisto has just ordered hers more neatly :razz:.)


"Hers"...............that'll explain why "he" wasn't too keen to take me up on my offer to buy "him" a beer or three.............Sorry Ssthisto !!




intravenous said:


> Wildtype and normal are interchangeable. Homozygous has nothing to do with appearance...homozygous means two the same (i.e. two alleles the same).


I therefore assume that Heterozygous means two alleles that are different at the same locus. What is the correct terminology to reflect the appearance of the snake as I assume that it is possible for it to be **** at many loci (Wildtype for instance) without it impacting the appearance as well as being **** at just one locus (Amel) for instance and yet it changes the appearance of the snake.

Thanks,
Patrick.

p.s. Any chance of another test?


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it's getting so that you need a slide rule to breed things!:lol2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> "Hers"...............that'll explain why "he" wasn't too keen to take me up on my offer to buy "him" a beer or three.............Sorry Ssthisto !!


I'm pretty used to it  
People tend to assume that names ending in O or U are masculine (and the fact that I 'talk' like a male doesn't help) and that names ending in A or I are feminine. 

Actually, it's the "beer" part I object to - I can't abide the stuff! 




> I therefore assume that Heterozygous means two alleles that are different at the same locus. What is the correct terminology to reflect the appearance of the snake as I assume that it is possible for it to be **** at many loci (Wildtype for instance) without it impacting the appearance as well as being **** at just one locus (Amel) for instance and yet it changes the appearance of the snake.


Precisely. Homozygous "normal" or het dominant "normal" at dozens of loci = normal-looking, but you change one locus to homozygous recessive "not normal" (or het/**** dominant 'not normal') - whatever that locus might be - can change the entire appearance of the snake. Whether it be homozygous amel or homozygous "no-eyes". 

The correct term to describe how the snake LOOKS is "phenotype" or "visual". 

An animal who carries no homozygous recessives is likely to be Phenotypically Normal or "Visual Wildtype". 
An animal who is, say, homozygous for "no eyes" would be "Visual Eyeless" or "Phenotypically Eyeless."



> p.s. Any chance of another test?


*chuckle* Sure. I'll post a new test thread when I get home - once I've had a chance to ponder and come up with a good one.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> I therefore assume that Heterozygous means two alleles that are different at the same locus. What is the correct terminology to reflect the appearance of the snake as I assume that it is possible for it to be **** at many loci (Wildtype for instance) without it impacting the appearance as well as being **** at just one locus (Amel) for instance and yet it changes the appearance of the snake.


Yup, heterozygous means two different alleles, hence "het" means one normal version and one mutant version.

Phenotype = appearance
Genotype = genetics

Het/**** refers to the genotype.

That last bit: "I assume that it is possible for it to be **** at many loci (Wildtype for instance) without it impacting the appearance as well as being **** at just one locus (Amel) for instance and yet it changes the appearance of the snake." was a bit confusing, I'm not really sure what you're asking for :razz:.

But basically...in corn morphs (but not in all species) colour morphs are recessive to wild type...i.e. being het and just having one wild type copy is enough to stop any phenotype changes. So in corn snakes being homozygous (for the mutant copy) is generally the only way to achieve a phenotype change. Being homozygous for the wild type is the default/normal gentype so you basically assume it is homozygous wildtype unless told otherwise (i.e. amel (**** for mutant), or het anery (heterozygous for mutant).



> p.s. Any chance of another test?


How about Snow het hypo, bloodred x Bloodred het anery, hypo

That one is probably less time consuming :razz:, but same principles.

I'll have a look at your working for the other one later, I'm just a bit busy right now.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Ssthisto beat me too it :razz:, can't hurt to have two points of view though :smile:.


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Good Morning Ladies - That Diffusion locus is a bit different isn't it?!?!

I've done my calculations I just don't know what any of it means......yet!!

I'll post my results when I get back from my morning taxi service for the kids. Cheers!!!

Patrick.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Hmm, it is possibly co-dominant (het bloodreds sometimes, but not always, show visual signs).

When I do it I just treat it as a recessive but if I were actually doing it with real snakes I'd probably consider that fact in though.


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Didn't get time yesterday and now I'm in Toronto. Therefore it'll be late night correspondence from me for the next 3 weeks seeing as it'll be midnight UK time before I get back to my hotel of an evening. Anyway, here are my results;

1/16 Normal* het for Amel, Anery & Diffusion
1/16 Bloodred het for Amel, Anery and Hypo
2/16 Hypo* het for Amel, Anery & Diffusion
2/16 Bloodred het for Amel and Anery
1/16 Normal* het for Amel, Anery, Hypo & Difussion
1/16 Hypo Bloodred het for Amel & Anery
1/16 Anery* het for Amel & Diffusion
1/16 Anery Bloodred (Granite?) het for Amel & Hypo
2/16 Hypo Anery (Ghost?) het for Amel and Hypo
2/16 Anery Bloodred (Granite?) het for Amel
1/16 Anery* het for Amel, Hypo & Difussion
1/16 Anery Hypo Bloodred het for Amel 
* reflects that the phenotype may be affected by the het for difussion


Questions
1. What is the correct terminology - Bloodred, Diffused, Difussion ?
2. If something is het for Amel and Anery is it het for Snow?
3. Are there trade names for every possible recessive gene combination?
4. If my calculations are correct, would you describe the Normal looking corns as 100% het for Amel, Anery and Difussion and 50% possible het for Hypo?

As always your feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Patrick.


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> Questions
> 1. What is the correct terminology - Bloodred, Diffused, Difussion ?
> 2. If something is het for Amel and Anery is it het for Snow?
> 3. Are there trade names for every possible recessive gene combination?
> ...


I'll look at the calculations later when I have more time but:

1. Both bloodred and diffused are correct terms right now for the actual gene, but people are moving towards using "diffused" more. "Diffusion" is used to describe the actual visual effect the gene has, rather than the gene itself.

2. Yup, although I don't like using that terminology, it is correct. I'm not sure how exactly it should be used though. I think a normal het anery and amel can be said to be het snow but I've also heard it used as an amel het anery being het snow.

3. No...for example I don't think a hypo amel has any special name.

4. If it is correct (I haven't checked yet) then yup


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

as intravenous says the name 'diffused' is gaining popularity over 'bloodred'.
Bloodred is now leaning towards the appearance of selectively breeding the diffused gene into normal corns and producing a solid dark red snake.
Another reason, as has been pointed out to me on another forum is that something that has no red in it at all (but still carries the diffused gene) sounds ridiculous being called a 'whatever bloodred'.

a normal carrying the diffused gene, without being selectively bred to enhance it:








(pic: connie hurley, cccorns)

...and a diffused normal that has had a few generations of selective breeding to enhance the colours.....








(pic: don soderberg, smr reptiles)


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Hi eeji - Did you purposely use "_*a normal carrying the diffused gene*_" to describe the first photo and "_*a diffused normal*_" to describe the second photo to reflect that the first was D+DD and the second was DDDD or are you saying that both of the photos relate to normals het for Difussion and would therefore both have the same D+DD notation?​ 
I'm trying to get an idea of just how much impact, on the phenotype, being het for difussion can have, when not assisted by selective breeding. Does anyone know of a good website containing a wide selection of photos showing the width of impact that being het for difussion can have on an otherwise "normal" corn snake?​ 
Thanks,
Patrick​


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> Hi eeji - Did you purposely use "_*a normal carrying the diffused gene*_" to describe the first photo and "_*a diffused normal*_" to describe the second photo to reflect that the first was D+DD and the second was DDDD or are you saying that both of the photos relate to normals het for Difussion and would therefore both have the same D+DD notation?​
> I'm trying to get an idea of just how much impact, on the phenotype, being het for difussion can have, when not assisted by selective breeding. Does anyone know of a good website containing a wide selection of photos showing the width of impact that being het for difussion can have on an otherwise "normal" corn snake?​
> Thanks,
> Patrick​


Both animals are homozygous diffused. What he is saying that "bloodred" is really a term to describe selective bred lines of diffused animals (like candy cane is a selective bred amel).


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> I'm trying to get an idea of just how much impact, on the phenotype, being het for difussion can have, when not assisted by selective breeding. Does anyone know of a good website containing a wide selection of photos showing the width of impact that being het for difussion can have on an otherwise "normal" corn snake?
> Thanks,
> 
> Patrick​


Generally speaking, being HET for Diffuse means that you get snakes showing varying degrees of the following:

*Zipper effect on the belly* - there's a clear line drawn down the belly checkers, so that you've got checkers on the sides but not down the middle. 
(Homozygous diffuse animals almost never show any belly checkers at all though they may show coloured splatters/staining on the back half of the body)

*Aberrant head markings* - some het diffuse animals have greyer heads, or a softening of the head markings. 
(Homozygous diffuse animals can have completely grey heads, a sort of 'skull' effect or no obvious pattern changes at all. The head markings are NOT a diagnostic like the Zipper is)

*Lateral diffusion of the saddles* - Some het diffuse animals show a milder form of the diffusion effect on the saddles and blotches along the flanks - as though they're PARTLY fading out. This is a bonus when it happens - I have one charcoal het diffuse girl who has a fair bit of diffusion on her flanks, but the matching coral snow possible het diffuse boy doesn't show any sign of the diffusion at all despite having a nice zipper. 
(A homozygous diffuse animal can ALSO show varying degrees of diffusion of the saddles and blotches - which is what Eeji's photos show. The first is a homozygous diffuse who has NOT been selectively bred for the highest level of diffusion and deep red colouring - and to me, it's a nice *diffuse* but I don't know I'd call it "Bloodred"; the second is a homozygous diffuse that HAS been bred for the diffusion and colouring and is quite justifiably called a "*Bloodred*".)


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Generally speaking, being HET for Diffuse means that you get snakes showing varying degrees of the following:
> 
> *Zipper effect on the belly*
> *Aberrant head markings*
> *Lateral diffusion of the saddles*"


Thank-you for this information. It is most helpful!!



Ssthisto said:


> ...............The first is a homozygous diffuse who has NOT been selectively bred for the highest level of diffusion and deep red colouring - and to me, it's a nice *diffuse* but I don't know I'd call it "Bloodred"; the second is a homozygous diffuse that HAS been bred for the diffusion and colouring and is quite justifiably called a "*Bloodred*".)


Obviously, I'm no expert but my expectations were that a homozygous diffuse - Bloodred - would be more distinctive than the corn in the first photograph. The first photgraph was more aligned to how I imagined the impact of being het diffuse would have on a normal corn. What a fascinating gene though!!


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## intravenous (Dec 20, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> I have one charcoal het diffuse girl who has a fair bit of diffusion on her flanks


Don't suppose we can see a picture:smile:?


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## ballpiefun (Mar 8, 2007)

intravenous said:


> Don't suppose we can see a picture:smile:?


Yes please......................................I'm off to work in Downtown Toronto now...............it will give me something to look forward to later this evening.

:mf_dribble:


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

ballpiefun said:


> Hi eeji - Did you purposely use "_*a normal carrying the diffused gene*_" to describe the first photo and "_*a diffused normal*_" to describe the second photo to reflect that the first was D+DD and the second was DDDD or are you saying that both of the photos relate to normals het for Difussion and would therefore both have the same D+DD notation?​
> I'm trying to get an idea of just how much impact, on the phenotype, being het for difussion can have, when not assisted by selective breeding. Does anyone know of a good website containing a wide selection of photos showing the width of impact that being het for difussion can have on an otherwise "normal" corn snake?​
> Thanks,
> Patrick​


 i'm rubbish at explaining stuff! they are both DDDD, but the second one has been selectively bred like intravenous says. its more to illustrate the difference in saying 'Diffused' or 'Bloodred', the same as saying eg. 'Amel' or 'Sunglow' (both aaaa)


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