# opposite sex dogs living together?



## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

is it possible to keep two dogs together without issues with them mating, my boy is 6 months now, I want to get another pup to keep him company when we are out but I dont really want to castrate him unil he is around 18 months.

I dont really want to get another boy as apparently mals dont normally get on with other males and I dont want to risk having issues when he hits adolescence


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

Get a spayed female. Simples :2thumb:
We have a dog and a bitch living under the same roof - the dog was castrated within a week of bringing him home.


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## Gar1on (Mar 27, 2012)

If you put a dog and a bitch together and the bitch goes into season, you can expect the dog to do whatever he can to spread his genes. Unless you are confident you can keep them separated if the bitch goes into season I'd recommend you wait until he's neutered.


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## popitgoes (Oct 24, 2010)

i kept a bitch and dog together and never had a problem they were never seperated and the dog wasnt chopped and the female wasnt scooped i guess i was just lucky with mine


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

popitgoes said:


> i kept a bitch and dog together and never had a problem they were never seperated and the dog wasnt chopped and the female wasnt scooped i guess i was just lucky with mine


Yes you were :bash:


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

popitgoes said:


> i kept a bitch and dog together and never had a problem they were never seperated and the dog wasnt chopped and the female wasnt scooped i guess i was just lucky with mine


had mine together with no issues too, he never looked at her that way once. big dogs can be disinterested like that though.

if you`re not breeding why wait till 18 months for de-nutting?

i wouldnt keep a female entire either though......


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

its cruel to neuter any male before full sexual maturity its proven to leave them hormonally puppiefied for life... 

you wouldn't do a operation that leaves your kids mentally retarded so why keep your dogs puppiefied for life??? :devil:

personally serialisation is up there with fang/claw pulling and is cruel to do it.... think about it how is it any difference your removing the dogs natural organs cos you potentially cant cope.... thats all...


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

must be why so many vets neuter at 5 months old then, what with all their training and the ethics they have to abide by :whistling2: i`m sure the rcvs tolerate cruelty from its members


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## Kaida (Mar 9, 2006)

It is perfectly possible to keep entire opposite-sex dogs in the same house with no accidental matings (I do), but you have to be totally committed to keeping them apart when she's in season. Not just you, but EVERYONE in the house, including visitors, which is the difficult bit - other people tend to forget even if you won't. It'll be more difficult with big strong dogs as well (mine are smaller) as the chance of them breaking down doors etc is obviously there. TBH, in your situation I'd wait until your current pup is mature and thoroughly trained, go ahead and neuter when he's fully mature (I agree it isn't a good idea to neuter too young), and then get your second. Raising two pups at the same time is hard, and a 6 month old is still a pup. Any tiny bad habits the resident dog has will get taught to the new dog, and training two dogs is worlds harder than training one.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

I know vets who still cull puppies at breeders requests... you dont know what you are on about... :whistling2:


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i do actually know what i`m on about, have kept dogs all my life thanks.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

so have i and worked them for over 10 years and been involved with breeding working lines since i was about 6... 

no one neuters in working circles before sexual maturity and it is well proven to biologically stump a male mentally wether you interpret this as right fair or cruel is up to you im just stating on bare bone facts you are wrong... : victory:


and the reason for neutering being so common in domestic pets?

dogs will be dogs and owners often complete retards who'd let it happen its better than 7,000,000 puppies being born each year in the veterinary professions eyes...


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Ive had had multiple dogs all my life(10 at the minute) and never had a problem castrating dogs at 6 months or 18 months, they have never shown any differance in behaviour at all


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

ermgravy said:


> its cruel to neuter any male before full sexual maturity its proven to leave them hormonally puppiefied for life...
> 
> you wouldn't do a operation that leaves your kids mentally retarded so why keep your dogs puppiefied for life??? :devil:
> 
> personally serialisation is up there with fang/claw pulling and is cruel to do it.... think about it how is it any difference your removing the dogs natural organs cos you potentially cant cope.... thats all...


Both of my dogs are neutered. It's not cruel and it's certainly nothing to do with me not being able to cope.

Thousands of healthy dogs are destroyed in this country every year. There are too many dogs, too many backyard breeders and not enough good homes out there.

Neutering your dog is part of being a responsible dog owner. Not to mention the potential health benefits of neutering.


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## Gar1on (Mar 27, 2012)

I think the debate is centred on whether or not early neutering is or is not detrimental to the health of the dog in later life. Your point is valid, insofar as early neutering may well affect the dog's hormonal development but for a lot of owners this is part of the reason for castration. There are no studies that categorically prove early castration is massively detrimental to the health of the dog... Indeed, as said above, a responsible owner will ensure their pet is neutered in order to prevent unwanted procreation. Poor breeding practice is more detrimental to pups IMO, than early castration. That's my opinion anyway, and you are of course entitled to your own.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

In answer to the original question :whistling2:..if you were to get a bitch now, you'd have two options. She will come into season probably between 6-9 months, and if your dog is currently six months, that is going to be a problem if you don't neuter him until 18 mths. For most breeds (eek can of worms...) spaying before the first season IMO is the better option. However in large breeds I understand it is associated with urinary incontinence in later years, so vet would probably advise she have a season first. Therefore you will either go through a very rough time keeping them apart (sounds easy in theory but believe me ITS NOT!!) or risk a very young pregnant bitch.
I think you should heed previous advice and wait til your dog is neutered. 
However, even neutered males will mate with bitches in season. No you won't get pups but although he'll be having a great time, his live in bitch may not be so impressed at continued advances!!


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

i completely understand the reasons why it is done but i think that the vast majority of people are ignorant to the impact it can have more so with dogs over bitches ill admit but still relevant in females (and this seems to be pretty much proven fact in most working dog communities eyes). and ive never said neutering is cruel ive said to remove a dogs organs before they are fully developed is cruel cos imo it is, i wouldn't hold back a child's development nor is it ethical to suggest to do so so why is it with a animal in your care??? 

and as far as castration being used as a control on a dogs development again this is proven less than effective:
i'm presuming this point is in reference to cases of overlay wild, aggressive and dominant dogs... at best studies have shown castration is only a maximun of 40% of case's with such animals and there is no way to prove or test its effectiveness prior to the op... 

seriously if you want to keep two dogs in one house apart for the length of a season it is not hard, you either rotate the two through a crate or kennel/run durring the corse of a day or you turn two door handles upside down and keep them in rooms with at least one room or hallway between then (two shut doors) for the durration of the season and walk them separately... : victory:


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

Can I just point out, the OP said they wanted a bitch to _keep the male company while they were out_ - so there's no way in Hell they can stop accidental matings if they're not there to watch the dogs!


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## martyb (Sep 5, 2007)

ermgravy said:


> its cruel to neuter any male before full sexual maturity its proven to leave them hormonally puppiefied for life...
> 
> you wouldn't do a operation that leaves your kids mentally retarded so why keep your dogs puppiefied for life??? :devil:
> 
> personally serialisation is up there with fang/claw pulling and is cruel to do it.... think about it how is it any difference your removing the dogs natural organs cos you potentially cant cope.... thats all...


My boy was castrated at 5 months and he is not hormonally puppiefied , he is 1 very happy and well balanced dog.

I dont agree with you that its cruel at all, why keep an entire dog if your not going to breed with it, having all though raging hormones.


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

ermgravy said:


> ive never said neutering is cruel ive said to remove a dogs organs before they are fully developed is cruel cos imo it is


and Ophexis: yes there is crate's... or kennels/runs side by side... and the duration of a season is not ever either they would be together the majority of the time...


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## sarahc (Jan 7, 2009)

I've gone from keeping a group of un neutered dogs and bitches of varying ages to having most of them(all of the bitches)done.It's perfectly possible to keep them seperate but stressful for both you and the dogs.You have to be on red alert at all times,your dog will howl,whinge and cry and lose condition and the bitches often have peeing accidents,they need to go frequently.It's no picnic.If worst came to worst and she did get mated you could have her spayed asap after the season,not ideal of course just worst-case scenarif the two brothers I've got I had one neutered at 8 months and the other at 2 and a half hasn't been done.The one I had done at 8 months is rather silly,the now mature un neutered is quiet and relaxed and in many ways an easier dog,now would be a good time to get him done I think.Still I don't mind the silly billy either,he's good fun and playful and when alls said and done,knows no different and is a happy soul.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Ophexis said:


> Can I just point out, the OP said they wanted a bitch to _keep the male company while they were out_ - so there's no way in Hell they can stop accidental matings if they're not there to watch the dogs!


I did say that, but at the same time, I am one of those strange people that can think for them self, which means I will be taking bits of information from this thread and putting them all together to come up with a sensible solution, which will either be...

not getting another pup yet, 

getting another pup and keeping them seperate when she does eventually come into season, 

or I could slam my hand in a door and stick my tounge in the blender.

Ultimately I asked if it is possible to keep two pups together, and what doing this would entail, I did not ask for a debate on when a dog should be castrated, I have already made that decision myself, but I have no objection to it being debated on a 'when should dogs be castrated' thread


there has been some very helpful input, its a shame I have to pick through the off subject posts to find it...

gotta love forums :bash:


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

retri said:


> I did say that, but at the same time, I am one of those strange people that can think for them self, which means I will be taking bits of information from this thread and putting them all together to come up with a sensible solution, which will either be...
> 
> not getting another pup yet,
> 
> ...


I was not trying to be inflammatory with that post, I apologise if you interpreted it that way.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Ophexis said:


> I was not trying to be inflammatory with that post, I apologise if you interpreted it that way.


no sorry, I shouldnt really have quoted your post as it wasnt aimed at you, just general frustration that it has turned into a debate about castration when that was not my origonal question


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

retri said:


> no sorry, I shouldnt really have quoted your post as it wasnt aimed at you, just general frustration that it has turned into a debate about castration when that was not my origonal question


Ah okay, no harm done :2thumb:
Personally I would wait until your wee lad is a tiny bit older. We introduced another dog into the household when our puppy was only 7-8 months (I forget how old exactly but definitely under a year) and honestly, it was a mistake. Granted, the puppy was not fully trained and the dog we rescued had some rather worrying aggression issues which we are still tackling, but they taught each other bad habits and at the moment are a right pair of hooligans! 
Do you leave the boy alone in the house at the moment? If so, for how long at a time? If taught from a young age that being left alone isn't the end of the world and you _will_ come back, most dogs tend to just go to sleep or entertain themselves without trouble.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

My tuppence worth...
I know nothing of the medical or ethical etc reasons behind getting a dog/bitch 'done' we have had ours 'done' as a means of stopping puppies...
we currently have 4 dogs ranging from 10 years to 13 weeks.
Ridley is a 10year old JR and he was neutered at about 6-7 months.
Raggs is a neutered female aged 9... we then had a long spell with just those two dogs before getting our own home and deciding we'd like another.
We discovered old tyme bulldogs and fell in love, and thus we got Gus last year. He was one in january. He is still technically a puppy and is only just beginning to show signs of settling down fully.
Brodie was our latest addition and we got her just last week, she too is an OTB and we do hope to breed off her at some point.
this may or may not (most likely not) be to Gus.
He is at present unnutered as we had hoped to breed from him to create an old tyme line of our own but he is a bit too leggy and as good, responsible OTB breeders (potentially) we want to start off on the right foot.
Chances are he too will be neutered this year.

I have read this thread with interest because potentially if we keep Gus intact we will have the same problem in a few months as is being mentioned.

So, we keep various breeds of dogs in a mixed sex group and it works out ok (there are scuffles from time to time but thats natural i guess)
It is hard work and there are times when they have all been little monkies BUT i wouldnt change it or them...
Gus makes me smile everyday and is such a chappy!
Brodie is clearly just an adorable puppy..
Ridley is a typical JR and is a little :censor: at times but he is also our first dog as a couple.
and raggs is just a stinky old lady!


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

At the end of the day i would like to sleep at night knowing i wont get puppies in a few months time that i then worry about getting good homes and not being bred. Also i would like to think that i wont put anyone elses dog or health at risk from having a horny bitch or dog. Also the health benefits to protect the dogs and bitches from cancer outweigh the cons of keeping an entire dog or bitch for the sake of it.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

My view
You are 100% right to not spay/neuter a large breed until you plan to. Not only the behaviour but also the possible increased risk of bone cancers. The male sex organs control more than just sex.

I personally do not think 6 months is old enough for getting another dog. He will need a lot more training and he will soon hit that teenage stage where whatever you have trained him to do will go out the window for a while whilst they rebel (to a greater or lesser degree depending on breed) and that can be hard enough without a pup watching her brother/sister and copying. 

Also I want to add that I strongly believe the theory that two dogs or two bitches can not live in harmony is over simplistic. 
Two dogs will clash if they are too much a like, this can be in a number of ways 
If they are the same character, same gender, both entire, same age ie going through the same puppy/teenage stages/old age grumpy stages etc etc. Only one part of this is about them being the same gender, the more things they have in common the more likely them both wanting the same thing at the same time and conflicting. I have 2 bitches, which is meant to be the worse combination but we fostered a lot and this is the pairing that worked out for us, my bitch hated having a Dog in the house, she would sulk until he left. One is 8 and the other 4 and they have never had a problem together because other than their gender they are different ages, different breeds and completely different characters. So do not rule out another male if you find one that fits your family, but obviously a bigger age gap than 6 months would be far more ideal in that case.

Always worth considering taking on an older dog, plenty needing homes right now for no reason than their owners cannot afford to keep them. A good older dog would help with your 6 month old rather than possibly learn bad habits from him like a pup could.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

I agree with many of the comments, the above ones in particular.
More than anything, and aside from the original question, definitely definitely get your current pup well trained before adding another. As has been said the younger one will pick up bad habits (eg toilet accidents, barking at the door etc) and they will bounce off each other and before you know it you'll have a ruddy nightmare :lol:
You probably already know this but just reiterating in an attempt to save your sanity!


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Im also not stating that a dog should be neutered or spayed as soon as it is born,


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Kare said:


> My view
> You are 100% right to not spay/neuter a large breed until you plan to. Not only the behaviour but also the possible increased risk of bone cancers. The male sex organs control more than just sex.


not really even worth getting into this with pet owners obviously... 

but neutering for behaviour is complete baloney and any vet fresh outa school will tell you all modern research points out that in less than 40% of cases this is actually effective....

the emotional stunting to a male is huge... and to play it down with cancer benefits is ball same benefits are seen neutering up to 5yrs and left later it allows the dog to fully develop... : victory:


on a side note i dont give a monkeys if this is a derail its not completely if people are going to advocate neutering at six months then the other side of the argument needs addressing... and its very closely related to subject matter thats been vary prominent in this section of the forums for weeks this is a public forum.... :whistling2:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

ermgravy said:


> not really even worth getting into this with pet owners obviously...
> 
> but neutering for behaviour is complete baloney and any vet fresh outa school will tell you all modern research points out that in less than 40% of cases this is actually effective....
> 
> ...


You know I am not sure if you realised I was agreeing with you or not there lol. I was saying Bone cancers increase in early neutered males as the hormone to turn off bone growth correctly is part of the role of their sex organs.

I always say, would I spay or neuter a dog before 18 months?....the answer is no, never. 
But asked if I would recommend others that I do not know to copy my example? probably not. 

I know I am not a muppet I have done my research and I know how to prevent pregnancy in an unspayed bitch (the fact that outside the home or car my dogs have been out of my sight for maybe less than 15mins combined in the entire 4 years I have been their owner helps. They do not leave my sight normally and do not leave the lead when in season) but the person I speak to could get it wrong and have an accident, so I keep my mouth shut instead of giving my advice. As this person has already made the decision I would I feel free agreeing with her.

IMHO there needs to be far more education on the alternatives, there are so few people who really understand seasons and that their dog is still fertile for a while after the bleeding stops that I understand why there are so many accidents. Even if it is only allowing a bitch to have a single season on vet advice before spaying, people need more education and discussion on the safe way to get through that season. Whilst the message to spay and neuter needs to be spread currently it is overpowering other information dog owners should have.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I used to have my bitches spayed at 6 months before a first season but the ones that got done that early suffer with bouts of cystitis. I changed my policy to allow them to have a first season before spaying and touch wood no cystitis in these girls. Ive never had a problem with castrating the boys although any large breeds are left until 18 months just for the simple fact it allows them to mature a bit, the small ones are done by 6/8 months and Ive had no problems with any of them.


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

Kare said:


> IMHO there needs to be far more education on the alternatives, there are so few people who really understand seasons and that their dog is still fertile for a while after the bleeding stops that I understand why there are so many accidents. Even if it is only allowing a bitch to have a single season on vet advice before spaying, people need more education and discussion on the safe way to get through that season. Whilst the message to spay and neuter needs to be spread currently it is overpowering other information dog owners should have.


Couldn't agree more. Which is why I wouldn't want to see the op (or anyone) trying to keep two unneutered dogs of the opposite sex apart by using crates etc. I don't believe its fair to the dogs, its not foolproof and its unnecessary. If only more people would use some forethought and seek advice before jumping in head first thinking they know what they are doing...
On another note I'm pretty certain all vets would have to keep up to date with the latest research and studies as part of their continuing professional development, so they should be the best source of information when deciding when to neuter. Sure there will be some with out of date policies, all the more reason to find a vet you can trust.
But its not helpful comparing dogs to children, they are a different species to us and while we have thought processes, decision making and risk assessment kills (amongst others), dogs' are either limited or absent!


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## skimsa (Sep 28, 2007)

ermgravy said:


> its cruel to neuter any male before full sexual maturity its proven to leave them hormonally puppiefied for life...
> 
> you wouldn't do a operation that leaves your kids mentally retarded so why keep your dogs puppiefied for life??? :devil:
> 
> personally serialisation is up there with fang/claw pulling and is cruel to do it.... think about it how is it any difference your removing the dogs natural organs cos you potentially cant cope.... thats all...


Please tell me you've been sterilised.

I think I will take the advice of the incredibley vast majority of vets, their regulatory body, the RSPCA, every dog owner I know (including breeders) rather than some back water breeder who relates castrations to mental retardation.

Mind you given a couple of your comments here you do appear to be the authority on mental retardation.


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## Finedon (Feb 10, 2012)

ermgravy said:


> its cruel to neuter any male before full sexual maturity its proven to leave them hormonally puppiefied for life...
> 
> you wouldn't do a operation that leaves your kids mentally retarded so why keep your dogs puppiefied for life??? :devil:
> 
> personally serialisation is up there with fang/claw pulling and is cruel to do it.... think about it how is it any difference your removing the dogs natural organs cos you potentially cant cope.... thats all...


 
what absolute rubbish

I don't ever recall seeing a guide dog acting like a puppy and they are castrated/neutered at an early age. You should neuter your animals to prevent unwanted puppies and kittens. Go down to your local animal shelter and see for yourself the results of owners not neutering their pets.


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## beckyj (Oct 13, 2011)

So is it just large breeds that benefit from being neutered later, or does this include small breeds too?


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

skimsa said:


> Please tell me you've been sterilised.
> 
> I think I will take the advice of the incredibley vast majority of vets, their regulatory body, the RSPCA, every dog owner I know (including breeders) rather than some back water breeder who relates castrations to mental retardation.
> 
> Mind you given a couple of your comments here you do appear to be the authority on mental retardation.


ok in black and white a dog castrated before full mental maturity will never develop defence drive among several late developing emotions... emotional/mental retiredness is the same thing no matter what sp you are talking about... 

Im not a backwater breeder, ive never stated i am, i work along side various breeders yes... my father is an accomplished accredited breeder and a member of various american kc's, and i dont believe in in breeding for ring or a lot of uk practices/standards. my background is in working and training dogs for work as gun dogs and protection sport and security dogs.... 

watch the sarcy personal insults ive only ever been outwardly offense to one person on this board and it wasnt you or in this thread... 

personally no all dogs small or large breed should be allowed to fully mature... its a different point for every breed but it is possible to make a rough estimate based on size small breeds generally anywhere inside the 18months upo 2 and half years and larger breeds 2-3+ years.... Bitches are slightly different biologically and generally just poost second season... for your average pet female castration post first season your got going to see a much different animal than waiting but males the difference can be vast...


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Finedon said:


> what absolute rubbish
> 
> I don't ever recall seeing a guide dog acting like a puppy and they are castrated/neutered at an early age. You should neuter your animals to prevent unwanted puppies and kittens. Go down to your local animal shelter and see for yourself the results of owners not neutering their pets.


idiots shouldnt own dogs... : victory:

dog licensing would actually be a positive thing... :whistling2:


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Gar1on said:


> I think the debate is centred on whether or not early neutering is or is not detrimental to the health of the dog in later life. Your point is valid, insofar as early neutering may well affect the dog's hormonal development but for a lot of owners this is part of the reason for castration. *There are no studies that categorically prove early castration is massively detrimental to the health of the dog*... Indeed, as said above, a responsible owner will ensure their pet is neutered in order to prevent unwanted procreation. Poor breeding practice is more detrimental to pups IMO, than early castration. That's my opinion anyway, and you are of course entitled to your own.


The problem with this attitude is that, actually, we don't know that YET - neutering has become recommended progressively earlier so the problems probably aren't apparent yet.

I'm in the late neutering category, too, I'm afraid. Mental and physical development will give you a more balanced dog - and if you're neutering so the dog will be 'easier' as an adult, you probably should have opted for a softer dog breed to begin with. I don't like the temperament of lots neutered males I come across, including geldings / male rabbits etc - too many seem as if they're a sandwich short of a picnic imo!! :lol2:


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## 5plusmany (Sep 29, 2011)

There's no need for people to insult each other. Everyone has different opinions, all valuable. Some are more concerned with preventing excess puppies (sorry I know that sounds emotionally removed) whereas others are more worried about the dogs' abilities to work or whatever. Neither is wrong from a dog welfare point of view but unless you are one of those people who has done EXTENSIVE research on the subject then you can't claim 'I'm right and you're wrong'.
And I think everyone agrees that dogs and bitches differ, as do different breeds.
So let's play nicely :2thumb:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

ermgravy said:


> ok in black and white a dog castrated before full mental maturity will never develop defence drive among several late developing emotions... emotional/mental retiredness is the same thing no matter what sp you are talking about...
> 
> Im not a backwater breeder, ive never stated i am, i work along side various breeders yes... my father is an accomplished accredited breeder and a member of various american kc's, and i dont believe in in breeding for ring or a lot of uk practices/standards. my background is in working and training dogs for work as gun dogs and protection sport and security dogs....
> 
> ...


 
Im presuming this is a typo:whistling2:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Can I just add, and not to cause another row but as another point to consider, that it's all well and good to say It's not worth discussing this with the average pet owner BUT those pet owners make up the vast majority of dog owners I would have thought and they seek their advice from vets and such like.
It's all well and good blaming the owner and stating they shouldn't own dogs but to be fair, most people think it's right to seek advice from a vet who will mostly say it's ok to neuter a dog at 6 months.

And before anyone says the classic line of 'well they should be researching etc etc'
Why would the average owner think this?
They would trust the word of what they see as being the authority on pets, their vet!


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> Im presuming this is a typo:whistling2:


:blush: i get too wond up and type post before reading things back... :bash: ... i mean wound... see i what i mean... :lol2:


I didn't mean to come across so contradicting when i quoted Kare before either i wasn't trying to disagree i was just making a point whilst the cancer benefits of late neutering are what is more likely to draw the mass publics eyes to the benefits of waiting i still fell a dogs emotional development is the real factor that people should be focussed on, as a 'well fare issue'...

Rach i fully respect that point and it was well rash of me saying it like that it just frustrates me the way that cos this is traditionally not frowned apon and i dont post in the most orthodox fashion combined with my pretty hardline believes i get discredited for speaking garbage.... Vets and KC in this country go a long way to hinder progression in my eyes not saying they dont do a good job just there are still prehistoric policys in place...


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

To a certain degree trusting a vet 100% about spaying is a little like trusting kwikfit 100% about needing new tyres.

Yes they are specialists, but they are far from impartial. They would make little money from telling people not to neuter, even advising for neuter/spaying later in life is a risk as the owner may go elsewhere for an earlier op on their own time scale.

However like Rach says why would it occur to most average owners that a little personal research is in order. TBH it was only the fact I was still held passwords from the University I attended for accessing a range of research papers that I could access the research I did on the subject.

There is a lot of research, especially for the US. However it is easily discredited by those in a vested interest in ignoring it as the highest number of very early neutering occurs in rescues out there. No history=no proof it is the earlier neutering causing the effects/damage.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Thing is, much like doctors, vets are kind of held by the general public as being the oracle when it comes to pets.
As Kare says, it just doesn't enter the general pet owners head to question what a vet says.. After all, they've studied years for their profession and Joe public that means something.
Even tho I'm in here I still look to my vet for advice and believe it.
Plus, they do have us over a barrel somewhat with say boosters, as research shows they may not be necessary every year but kennels say you have to have them to board your pet.
It's a bit of a lose lose situation for us pet owners but win win for the vets, medical companies and kennels!
Lol


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> Can I just add, and not to cause another row but as another point to consider, that it's all well and good to say It's not worth discussing this with the average pet owner BUT those pet owners make up the vast majority of dog owners I would have thought and they seek their advice from vets and such like.
> It's all well and good blaming the owner and stating they shouldn't own dogs but to be fair, most people think it's right to seek advice from a vet who will mostly say it's ok to neuter a dog at 6 months.
> 
> And before anyone says the classic line of 'well they should be researching etc etc'
> ...


Sorry, some of this has been covered already because I've been pottering about while I write this...

I have to say, I think all the vets I use would go through the pro's & con's of early neutering with me if I asked them? Worth a wee chat about most things, anyway - I always have a lot of questions so I like vets who give a fuller answer rather than a simpler one.

I only researched neutering because I felt one of the dogs we've looked after probably was neutered before he was ready - I think if you have a breed that's inclined to be fearful or cautious, that's going to be made worse by neutering early. So, that's something which is relevant to a pet owner.

Lots of people love the daft puppy soppy attitude you get from males that have been neutered young anyway - it's just a personal preference on my part, but I have funny taste anyway :lol2:


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## ermgravy (Sep 19, 2009)

and for people that way inclined god made old english sheep dogs and *bully kutas*... :whistling2:

or Malinois for the completely insane... theres lots of breeds that are some what playful well into old age...

interesting point on the cautious point i once saw a working line lab that had never be trained for work and early snip'd try to be retrained for gun work five years old after doing lots of hospital rehab type work... one word gun-shy... none of the rest of the litter are and its a rehab dog he was v.well socialised and exposed to loud noise but fireworks and guns are too much and he has a complete flight response...


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

annabel said:


> Sorry, some of this has been covered already because I've been pottering about while I write this...
> 
> I have to say, I think all the vets I use would go through the pro's & con's of early neutering with me if I asked them? Worth a wee chat about most things, anyway - I always have a lot of questions so I like vets who give a fuller answer rather than a simpler one.
> 
> ...


I'm sure most vets would if asked, I guess that's my point tho.
If you Asked the average person about neutering age they would say 6 months.
Not because they are stupid or haven't asked but because they don't think to ask because they don't come on forums like this or think they need to research.
They accept what has been the norm for a long time, and don't think to question it as why would they.
Erm... I don't think I'm being very clear here am I?
Lol

I understand what you're saying Annabel totally but I think most people just don't think to ask because they just accept what's the normal way.
And because it's drummed into them that getting a pet neutered is vital to stop unwanted pups etc.

I suppose it could be argued that at the very least it does go some way towards preventing unwanted litters?

I don't know because I too was one of the people who thought getting a dog snipped at 6 months was ok... Until I came on here...


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> I'm sure most vets would if asked, I guess that's my point tho.
> If you Asked the average person about neutering age they would say 6 months.
> Not because they are stupid or haven't asked but because they don't think to ask because they don't come on forums like this or think they need to research.
> They accept what has been the norm for a long time, and don't think to question it as why would they.
> ...


I still think it's OK, fine, acceptable, a good solution, better than not neutering etc - I just don't think it would be my personal choice.

I am one of *those* people, though, that goes into the doctors with a strong idea of what I want from my appointment... Sometimes I'm willing to trust other people's judgement but it just seems weird to me that neutering is done without people actually thinking about it because in humans it would be viewed as fairly major...


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

That's the odd thing tho isn't it...
People take their puppy to be neutered at say 6 months but you wouldn't dream if being sterilised without asking a host of questions and going for pre ops etc.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> That's the odd thing tho isn't it...
> People take their puppy to be neutered at say 6 months but you wouldn't dream if being sterilised without asking a host of questions and going for pre ops etc.


I know dogs aren't humans but still, it's possible to have an entire animal and never end up with accidental matings.


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

Do you think most people are perhaps scared in to getting their dogs done?


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## Kaida (Mar 9, 2006)

I think a lot of times vets are balancing reducing the risk to the good of the dog population at large against the good of the individual dogs they see. My vet agrees that there are cons to neutering as well as pros - increased risks of prostate cancer, thyroid issues, growth issues, bone cancer, etc, as well as the mental development issues. But the practice he works at is very pro-neuter, they see it as their duty to the dog population at large, so he's not supposed to talk about cons with clients who, encouraged by the posters etc in the waiting room and the cheap neutering months the practice do, bring their pups in for neutering.

One of my bitches was neutered before maturity - she's been in and out of rescues her whole life before we adopted her as an oldie, and I do understand why they tend to neuter out of concern that adoptive owners aren't responsible enough to keep an intact animal, but I do wish they'd all do what some do and put a clause in the adoption contract that insists animals are neutered at maturity. My bitch has suffered because she was desexed too soon. She didn't develop properly around her vulva, leaving it a shape with folds that stay damp and very prone to painful infections. She's had to be sedated to clean the whole area up and flush it out, and been on antibiotics and steroid creams numerous times. Every day I have to roll her onto her back (which hurts her arthritic joints) to bathe and dry the area and apply cream, and regularly trim all the hair short.

I'd never have a dog/bitch neutered in puppyhood or even adolescence, and I'm unsure about adopting a dog desexed before maturity or even at an unknown time.


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## martyb (Sep 5, 2007)

Rach1 said:


> Do you think most people are perhaps scared in to getting their dogs done?



I got my boy done at 5 months because he would constantly hump my son and anything else that was possible for him to hump. Like i said in my earlier post he his a wonderfuly well balanced boy and not like a puppy due to him being done early and hes almost 3 now, and if i had another male dog i wouldn't think twice about having him done early, each to their own.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> Do you think most people are perhaps scared in to getting their dogs done?


I find it very strange that there are what 21,000 dogs at Crufts alone, probably 100's of thousands more showdogs that did not make it there. All unspayed or neutered. For that number few show breeders seem to "accidentally" produce litters compared to the general public making crossbreeds.

I am not sure about scared into doing it, though I do believe scare tactics are a large reason people get it done and I do not know how many show dogs die from illnesses that would have been prevented with neutering, but I do know despite there being so many dog owners out there choosing to live with entire dogs there is a scary lack of information available about how to live with an entire bitch without causing puppies. Ask most places for advice including at vets and you have to wade through they should have been done before you get to any other info. 

It seems to be say 
20% of people cannot get their dogs done as they show. 
60% in the middle have had spay/neuter your dogs or they will die of cancer and produce puppies hammered into them so hard they do not stop to question (mating is never mentioned, including what to do to prevent mating, it is as though they spontaneously make puppies, maybe wet gremlin styley) then few of those, much less than a quarter I would guess, go on to question it a little more and 
Then the other 20% who have no clue, have not ever retained a single bit of information about "good dog care" they have learnt along the way in their lives and spaying/neutering does not even occur to them, or they like making puppies and are really the people who are willingly pumping out the vast majority of unplanned/untested/unwanted/whim bought puppies who need their dogs neutered/spayed.

The message is being drummed so hard at the lowest common denominator, people that will likely never grasp it, that it is drowning out all information about other approaches/routes for the other 60%....but surely show forums discuss it?

Talking about only neutering is like teaching only abstinence to teenagers rather than contraception methods, it just does not work!


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

I'll hold my hand up now and admit our dog (6) is intact (please don't slaughter me, lol).
When my husband was still in the Army we lived in Germany when we got him and he spend most of his (so far) life there. It seems most of the vets and owners in Germany have a different attitude towards neutering: Most see it as an unnecessary intervention, some would even go as far as calling it mutilation. The approach is a little bit different towards female dogs, especially when they suffer from bad phantom pregnancies. 
The reason, we never got Trigger "snipped" is, cos there has never been the need to. We are responsible owners and he has never had the opportunity to "spread his genes". He doesn't have a strong sexual drive, other than "gobbing off" to other intact males and prefers neutered males over intact females any day (maybe he plays for the other team...) to the point where he completely ignored a b... on heat during obedience classes. He has not lost his puppy attitude and is still one of the most playful and affectionate dogs I've ever known. He has never even attempted to run away to find a female in heat, even so there used to be a breeder living close to us. 
He is vet checked on a regular basis and so far there have been no health concerns related to him being entire whatsoever. 
He will never be bred with, as he doesn't have any papers so I don't know his whole family background (even so he's healthy he could still be a carrier of genetic illnesses).
Now, let the whipping begin, lol. :whip:

P.S.: I should mention, that we only have the one dog, so it's a bit easier for us to make our choice.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

opps wrong post


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## Ophexis (Feb 19, 2010)

BMo1979 said:


> I'll hold my hand up now and admit our dog (6) is intact (please don't slaughter me, lol).
> When my husband was still in the Army we lived in Germany when we got him and he spend most of his (so far) life there. It seems most of the vets and owners in Germany have a different attitude towards neutering: Most see it as an unnecessary intervention, some would even go as far as calling it mutilation. The approach is a little bit different towards female dogs, especially when they suffer from bad phantom pregnancies.
> The reason, we never got Trigger "snipped" is, cos there has never been the need to. We are responsible owners and he has never had the opportunity to "spread his genes". He doesn't have a strong sexual drive, other than "gobbing off" to other intact males and prefers neutered males over intact females any day (maybe he plays for the other team...) to the point where he completely ignored a b... on heat during obedience classes. He has not lost his puppy attitude and is still one of the most playful and affectionate dogs I've ever known. He has never even attempted to run away to find a female in heat, even so there used to be a breeder living close to us.
> He is vet checked on a regular basis and so far there have been no health concerns related to him being entire whatsoever.
> ...


Our old springer spaniel was intact until around that age. We actually never had the intention of getting him castrated because he was absolutely sound! He only ended up getting the snip due to medical reasons - I believe there was some testicular bleeding.


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## Postcard (Aug 29, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> Do you think most people are perhaps scared in to getting their dogs done?


I do genuinely think neutering is a brilliant solution for most people and really I am pro-neutering BUT doing it before the animal has reached what is essentially doggy puberty doesn't sit all that well with me - I think places like this are great for showing people the pro's and con's of a given situation, and maybe it's right that the ones who don't care enough to ask questions or think about things are pushed towards early neutering? 

Dunno!

I just think, like with most things, it's not as simple as it's made out to be.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I've joined this thread late, but thought I'd give my opinion anyway.

Currently I have 4 dogs in the house, 1 entire male Chi (9 months), 2 entire female Chis (16 months & 3 years), & 1 entire female Boston Terrier (4 years). We breed & show Chis, hence why they are entire. All 4 dogs run together. This means a very careful eye has to be kept on the bitches, for signs of coming into season. Thankfully we have timing on our side, as when our maiden bitch is ready to be mated, our boy will also be ready. Our older bitch is going to a friend's to be covered by her stud dog.

The male Chi is best buddies with the Boston Terrier & they share a crate together at night. The Boston has been due to be neutered for a while now, but the last few times we've been ready to have her done, she's either had milk (due to a puppy being in the house), or come into season early. Thankfully she is barron anyway, but we are getting her neutered to make it less stressful for her & our male Chi. The male Chi can then concentrate on our Chi bitches more when the time comes.

As regards neutering young dogs, I personally think it ideal to allow the dog or bitch to mature more before taking them to the vets.


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## kellogg (Aug 15, 2010)

I personally don't neuter especially males, unless they medically need it as to me the health benefits of keeping entire far out weigh neutering. I don't breed them either it is solely down to health reasons.


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## retri (Mar 5, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I've joined this thread late, but thought I'd give my opinion anyway.
> 
> Currently I have 4 dogs in the house, 1 entire male Chi (9 months), 2 entire female Chis (16 months & 3 years), & 1 entire female Boston Terrier (4 years). We breed & show Chis, hence why they are entire. All 4 dogs run together. This means a very careful eye has to be kept on the bitches, for signs of coming into season. Thankfully we have timing on our side, as when our maiden bitch is ready to be mated, our boy will also be ready. Our older bitch is going to a friend's to be covered by her stud dog.
> 
> ...





kellogg said:


> I personally don't neuter especially males, unless they medically need it as to me the health benefits of keeping entire far out weigh neutering. I don't breed them either it is solely down to health reasons.


thanks guys, we have eventually come to the decision that we are looking to rehome a mature female, but after visiting the kennels and finding a lovely pup they have told us they will not let us rehome any dog or bitch unless we castrate our pup :bash: this is something I really cant get my head around, obviously the bitch is spayed, and as has been said the cons outweigh the pros of castration by far, not only this we have been recomended by our behaviourist and vet not to castrate until at least 18 months anyway


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