# Exchange of animals for non-table holders



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Below are the new trial requirements for the exchange of animals at shows for non-table holders. I emphasises this is a trial for the September IHS show in Doncaster only, with a view to being implemented in future shows. Striking a balance between facilitating visitors to a show who wish to exchange and those who have paid to have a stand is a delicate balance. Clearly exchange of animals in car parks presents a poor perception, and needs addressing and hopefully the new facility will be successful.​

If you wish to use this facility then you need to contact the show organiser as per the requirements. Richard Brooks Tel: 01274 548342 email:[email protected]



*Exchange of animals for non-table holders*​



Exchange of animals outside of shows in adjacent car parks etc. is strictly forbidden. Exchange of such animals must be conducted within the show and with the knowledge of the show organiser.

Visitors who wish to exchange small numbers of animals, and/or collect a small number of animals from pre-ordered sales/exchanges must notify the show organiser of any such arrangement a minimum of twenty four hours in advance.

Vendors must give a name and contact details for themselves and the purchaser and must also specify species and numbers of animal/s they are bringing.

The organisers will keep a record of the above and reserve the right to inspect the animals immediately upon arrival into the show. 

A designated area will be provided for exchanges which will be supervised. Once animals are exchanged livestock must be left in the crèche unless the purchaser is leaving the show immediately. No animals are to be left in vehicles under any circumstances.

This facility will be provided free of charge, although the vendor and/or purchaser will be required to pay the normal show entry fee and make a small donation to the FBH for this service.
 
*Collection of animals by courier*


Collection by licensed couriers is permitted. The show organiser must be notified twenty four hours in advance if animals are to be collected.

They must give a name and contact details for themselves and the purchaser and must also specify which species of animal/s are being collected.

The courier company must show the organiser a copy of their Defra licence before collecting any animals.

The organisers will keep a record of the above. 
 
*Terms *


All standards terms and conditions for exhibiting at shows must be met.

The above facilities are at the discretion of the show organisers and their word is final.


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## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

The cat seems to have got peoples tongues on this. So to start the ball rolling and pose a question to Chris from the annoying little bald bloke sitting on the Clapham Omnibus, as someone affectionately called me last week. 

What are the benefits of this initiative to the rank and file breeders (the showmakers) who set off from home at 3 or 4 AM in the morning travelling up and down the A1 and round and around the M25, and pay for their tables at show after show?


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

and how many are small numbers of animals ,and what about traders ?????


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## Khaos (Jul 9, 2007)

I would think, perhaps, that it could bring extra people to the show to drop off very limited number of sales. If nothing else, their presence adds an extra few pennies to the show organisers' funds and a small donation to boot.

Both they and the person collecting their pre-sold creature may then choose to buy further supplies or an animal, so there is a potental additional benefit from the added footfall.

It also removes te potential risk from those who would exchange outside, safeguarding the hobby for us all. 

And as for the small numbers, as mentioned in the announcement this is at the discretion of the show organiser. They are best placed to decide on an individual basis whether someone is fairly taking advantage of the service; or taking the mickey.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

If nothing more, I think this ensures any ambiguous illegalities or claims of such, will be minimised or removed. This will ensure that authorities and the anti's do not have ammunition to get the shows closed, thus allowing future shows to go ahead unhindered.

And if the IHS/FBH are making extra cash from entry fees and donations for exchanges, then that is a good thing too.


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## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hmmmm.... did originally think that it may be wiser to state a specific number, but more I think on it, it's probably right that the organisers get to have a say in some level of flexibility.... Say jo bloggs wants to drop off 6 animals just because he does not want to either pay for a table or share a table with mates etc? Do we know them? Do they come to a lot of the show's or are they just out to use the situation to their best advantage. However, if a breeder who usually has tables etc. just has 7 or 8 animals at the end of the year and decides to still go to show to just drop animals he may be able to sell via internet and maybe have a look around and pick up a couple of bits whilst they are there etc?

OK.... so I'm a Libran and never can get the scales to balance :lol2: However, I do work with contracts and find it is better to state the 'obvious' ground rules in the contract and let the more experienced managers on the shop floor use their own judgements in respect of some things. So where do I stand now??..... probably still on the sidelines and wait for more points to be put forward and be taken into account also :blush:


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## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

I think the real test of this, and how it affects the number of tables booked, will be when the June show comes round. At that time of the year a fair number of breeders do not always have a great deal of surplus stock to offer. Hence, with this free facility on offer I suspect that a few breeders might make use of it and not book a table next June. Same may also apply to the November show when breeders have reduced their surplus stock.


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## Lutra Garouille (Sep 22, 2011)

I think this can only be good for the hobby.

Fair questions in terms of numbers and shops etc... have been asked.

However i would have thought that part of the reason people go to these shows and book tables is to get their name out there and known as a breeder and as (hopefully) a decent knowledgeable person. It's always good to have a presence at these shows and I wouldn't think many breeders would have an issue with smaller 'breeders' selling one or two animals at the show at a scheduled location. Let's face it, this would be happening in the local car parks in any case and this extra organisation by Chris et al. seems to be completely logical. 

As the show organisers will be ok-ing the trades I wouldn't expect them to be ok with someone saying they were coming to sell 15 snakes for example. Bear in mind these shows fill up pretty fast also.

Just to clarify - i am not collecting or dropping anything off at Donny but it seems to me to make sense. We don't want to be seen as dodgy carpark swapping weirdos...

When i have enough to sell at a table i will be booking one though :2thumb:

Good work Chris and all those involved!


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## SnakeBreeder (Mar 11, 2007)

I've attended severay IHS shows where I had tables.
However at the last 2 shows I did not have enough snakes avaialble to make it worth my while hireing for a table.
I therefore said I was unable to take animals to the last two shows for prospective buyers to collect. 
So I can see that this could be helpfull in the future.
I like the fact that both seller and buyer details have to be know, and type of animal to prevent abuse of the system.
I forcast that the table where these swaps are to take place could be very busy for those one off transactions.
It is much better than having people passing boxes in car parks like shady drug dealers.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

My understanding is that it was designed to stop the 'car park' meets and exchanges, which we all know happen and are usually a person selling an animal or two to one other person.
It can only be a good thing bringing this exchange into a controlled environment, out of the weather and away from public view that may contribute to an adverse perception of our hobby.

I don't think it was ever intended as a meeting point for one person to arrange to meet muliple buyers instead of booking a table. I think common sense is the key.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

There is a very important point that seems to be missed here.To book a table at at F.B.H. affiliated show you have to be a member of an F.B.H. affiliated club and therefore by definition should be adhering to defined rules.

Anyone can swap or exchange on these tables.What incentive is there to join one of these clubs? None.


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## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

Good point Colin... maybe something that should be considered. : victory:


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

How much is the creche service and how does it work? Also how secure is it, is it a separate room?


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## Frosty2532 (Nov 30, 2010)

colinm said:


> There is a very important point that seems to be missed here.To book a table at at F.B.H. affiliated show you have to be a member of an F.B.H. affiliated club and therefore by definition should be adhering to defined rules.
> 
> Anyone can swap or exchange on these tables.What incentive is there to join one of these clubs? None.


I see what you are saying, however you don't have to be a member of any club to sell or exchange animals In a car park, and the idea of this is to stop the car park exchanges as ultimately, the club members will be most affected by this practise, but someone who is not a member of any club will not be affected, so it is up to us all to encourage as many people as possible to join a club or society, but ultimately, the choice has to be left to individuals to make their choices, but for us all to respect their choices as long as the rules are followed.


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

Tarron said:


> If nothing more, I think this ensures any ambiguous illegalities or claims of such, will be minimised or removed. This will ensure that authorities and the anti's do not have ammunition to get the shows closed, thus allowing future shows to go ahead unhindered.
> 
> And if the IHS/FBH are making extra cash from entry fees and donations for exchanges, then that is a good thing too.


Agreed!


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## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

It will be interesting to see how well the facility is used.

If it is well used, then it will show that it was probably long overdue and that these "public" exchanges were happening, or had the potential to happen, too often.
If it is not well used it will show that there were either not many of these exchanges happening in the first place or the exchanges are still happening at roadsides because people could not be bothered with complying with all the rules of exchange facilities.

Also, as you need to give 24hrs notice, it will not stop those last minute deals being exchanged elsewhere.

However, I see this as only an excellent move forward and, therfore, consider it good news.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

MCEE said:


> It will be interesting to see how well the facility is used.
> 
> If it is well used, then it will show that it was probably long overdue and that these "public" exchanges were happening, or had the potential to happen, too often.
> If it is not well used it will show that there were either not many of these exchanges happening in the first place or the exchanges are still happening at roadsides because people could not be bothered with complying with all the rules of exchange facilities.
> ...


We are all so pleased. I'll be able to sleep now.:lol2:


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## Nodders (May 11, 2009)

LiamRatSnake said:


> How much is the creche service and how does it work? Also how secure is it, is it a separate room?


I'd love to use it but end up carrying snakes for hours on end , better than a boot of a car I suppose .

There is a sign that says "left at owners risk and they take no responsibilities etc"

So , no , I won't leave anything there unless it's 100% safe .

I know the sign is to protect them and I bet nothing ever went missing but it's quite offputting like they don't really want you to do it :whistling2:


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Nodders said:


> I'd love to use it but end up carrying snakes for hours on end , better than a boot of a car I suppose .
> 
> There is a sign that says "left at owners risk and they take no responsibilities etc"
> 
> ...


I'd be quite worried about mix ups or accidents too. Is carrying your animals about frowned upon?


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

LiamRatSnake said:


> I'd be quite worried about mix ups or accidents too. Is carrying your animals about frowned upon?


I don't thinking particularly frowned upon, but some people could be there all day purchasing many animals, so it's convenient to have somwhere secure to keep them
Plus it reduces the risk of drops or being squashed by the crowds.

I've never heard anything bad from people using the service, and would be comfortable using it myself.


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## LiamRatSnake (Jul 3, 2007)

Tarron said:


> I don't thinking particularly frowned upon, but some people could be there all day purchasing many animals, so it's convenient to have somwhere secure to keep them
> Plus it reduces the risk of drops or being squashed by the crowds.
> 
> I've never heard anything bad from people using the service, and would be comfortable using it myself.


I tend to carry animals in a pillowcase inside a tuppaware box inside a rucksack. This will be my first Doncaster so want to plan ahead.
Thanks for the reply.


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## Janine00 (Sep 20, 2008)

Caz said:


> We are all so pleased. I'll be able to sleep now.:lol2:


 Amen to that Brother: victory:



Nodders said:


> I'd love to use it but end up carrying snakes for hours on end , better than a boot of a car I suppose .
> 
> There is a sign that says "left at owners risk and they take no responsibilities etc"
> 
> ...


 Think the phrase you can please some of the people some of the time comes to mind here..... :Na_Na_Na_Na:



Tarron said:


> I don't thinking particularly frowned upon, but some people could be there all day purchasing many animals, so it's convenient to have somwhere secure to keep them
> Plus it reduces the risk of drops or being squashed by the crowds.
> 
> I've never heard anything bad from people using the service, and would be comfortable using it myself.


 Yay.... a balanced view :2thumb:

For myself, I think I would choose the safety of the creche for many reasons, not least of them being that some places can get to be like an oven whilst loads of people are walking around, also the stress of being joggled about in crowds, let alone the potential to get dropped, jogged or just plain crushed makes this a very good option for me as someone who may buy something early and then just browse for hours afterward. :mf_dribble:


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

The June show got very busy, and at its peak you will be shuffling around touching those around you. I was only around for the first hour of the show so I imagine it got even worse. It doesn't take much for someone to get annoyed and shove themselves through, pushing around everyone else. If your just picking up and leaving, carrying them should be fine, but if you want to look around afterwards, I think the creche is the best option.

I think the ihs staff members in charge will ensure complete safety for you animals, and only have the statement to cover Thierry backs in the worst case scenario. Perfectly understandable


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## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

Tarron said:


> The June show got very busy, and at its peak you will be shuffling around touching those around you. I was only around for the first hour of the show so I imagine it got even worse. It doesn't take much for someone to get annoyed and shove themselves through, pushing around everyone else. If your just picking up and leaving, carrying them should be fine, but if you want to look around afterwards, I think the creche is the best option.
> 
> I think the ihs staff members in charge will ensure complete safety for you animals, and only have the statement to cover Thierry backs in the worst case scenario. Perfectly understandable


Whomever buys an animal can always leave it with the seller until they are ready to leave. It does not take much effort to put a SOLD sticker on the container.


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## Tarron (May 30, 2010)

MCEE said:


> Whomever buys an animal can always leave it with the seller until they are ready to leave. It does not take much effort to put a SOLD sticker on the container.


That's all well and good if you're getting all your animals from there, and if the seller is happy to do that, brilliant. However, some People may go with the intention of buying a few different species or particular individuals which may be spread all over the show. It is easier to keep them all in one place, the creche, than having to run around the whole show picking up each animal.
And the creche is generally at the very front, so you can get all your purchases at the end of the day and slip out the door without the shoving.


I have to apologise, as soon as I read your comment I thought "here we go, yet another thing the ihs is doing wrong!"


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## Lil_nightmare (Feb 26, 2011)

We have been to donny twice and used the creche both times with no problems, it is cordoned off so you can just walk in there and it is always manned.

You give them the animals and attach a numbered ticket to the containers/bags and give you a corresponding ticket. When you are ready just hand the ticket over, they give you the snakes and off you go.

We are not well known and even though there were many animals in the creche both times the girls pretty much had animals in hand as they saw me walking towards the table,


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## storm (Jul 23, 2007)

I have just spoken with richard brooke, he stresses that anyone that is a non table holder wishing to bring animals for people wether pre-paid for or not MUST inform him by email or phone prior to 12:00 tomorrow, with full names and contact numbers of both parties.

there will be security on the car parks watching for any hand overs and registration numbers will be taken of any vehicles involved. 

The details will be given to the authorities for further action.

you must either book in and use the free facility provided (which is located on the immediate right through the turnstyle, marked as exchange area), or do not bring the animals at all, as non compliance will risk the cancellation of all future shows. 

thank you


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## Austin Allegro (Oct 5, 2008)

Latest I have heard from the rumour mill is that the most popular location, for those who don't want to use this swap shop facility, is the car park of a leisure centre called the Dome. Wouldn't that be ironic?


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## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

storm said:


> there will be security on the car parks watching for any hand overs and registration numbers will be taken of any vehicles involved.
> 
> The details will be given to the authorities for further action.


Good luck with that one.

What, exactly, do they expect the "authorities" to do?

The authorities will do nothing whatsoever because:

1. It is a private car park

2. These "authorities" must have absolute proof. Hearsay and number plates written on a bit of paper are not proof. Illegal activity must be caught in the act or evidence produced that proves beyond reasonable doubt that anything illegal has taken place.


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## Row'n'Bud (Jun 13, 2010)

....and again......

ever heard of a camera, you know, those things that never lie, apparently ???


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## Row'n'Bud (Jun 13, 2010)

Even mobile phones can take vids and pics Mccee so instant evidence Brains


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## MCEE (Aug 8, 2011)

Row'n'Bud said:


> ....and again......
> 
> ever heard of a camera, you know, those things that never lie, apparently ???


And what would the camera show? One person handing over a box to another? This does not prove that what they are doing is illegal, even if the box did contain an animal.

Besides, getting the images will be difficult at best and I do not think the IHS an FBH are going to go to that much effort to go covert.

It will be the hardest job in the world to for the IHS or FBH to convince the "authorities" to take any action, whatsoever. Merely saying "we saw something" and throwing a couple of photos or a video at them will not prove anything, especially if it took place on on private property. 

I agree that if they want to ban people from shows then that is their perogative but getting the authorities involved? It will never happen and th IHS and FBH know this.


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