# No more venomous for sale at Hamm



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

just been brought to my attention by Miqe, this is a major blow for venomous keepers.

No venomous at the Terraristika in Hamm, Germany. The herptile blog.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

This :censor: sucks, would helps to stop Di*k*ead buying them tho..


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I noticed that on the site the other day but because the translation is cack i couldn't actually work out if i was misreading it. not good eh?


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

To be entirely honest, I think it's a good move, how easy is it to go over and buy a venomous snake and bring it back to the UK, and un licensed and inexperienced keepers (talking about those muppets that want a cobra to show off to their mates, not inexperienced handlers in general) is a major threat to the 'hobby' of keeping venomous snakes. 

The experienced, licensed keepers will know where they can buy their venomous snakes from, and newbies can learn from their mentors! 

Ducks and waits for the :whip:


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

People will just go to Houten instead, or any of the other European shows, and deals will be done outside the hall at Hamm


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## leptophis (May 24, 2007)

totally agree with marie


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I can see the logic behind it, it is very hard to police but I still think its a shame its a good place to get a large selection of venomous at competitive prices, for the genuine keepers its a bad thing IMO.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Si, as a Euro veteran (Rich), Hamm prices are expensive! But it's hard to say what is a good price or not, it depends on availability at the time. It really is scary to think that the moron that came into the shop over the weekend wanting to own a gabby after having only a corn snake for three weeks, can go and buy one and bring it back. It's those people that are putting your 'hobby' in danger, how many unlicensed venomous bites will it take to secure a blanket ban on venomous snakes? The venomous world holds it's breath when a licensed keeper gets bitten as it is.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm sorry, but the proportion of d*ckheads that would have the nous to go over to Germany, spend ages queuing to get in, fight their way through the hordes of people, just to get a cobra or suchlike are miniscule and that isn't sufficient reason to warrant cessation of venomous sales at a show. It's far easier and less risky in terms of customs etc to buy a venomous snake over here than it would be to go all the way to Germany for one.


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## glidergirl (Nov 27, 2006)

If customs pulled you over they don't ask to see your license! We've been pulled a few times, they usually just turn their nose up and off you go! I don't know of any keepers in the UK that wouldn't ask to see a clients license before handing the snake over, there are some I'm sure, but I've not come across one yet! 

Look at the amount of people that go over to Hamm now, not necessarily *just* to buy a cobra, but an eyelash viper catches the eye, small, very pretty ... temptation, and if it's a possibility for the future then what's to stop them?

There is also a part of Germany now (essen) that has banned the keeping of venomous snakes.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

that is a worry, there seems to be quite alot of exotic keepers in Germany


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Sorry but I don't think venemous should be sold at shows anyway. The potential liability should they escape for a start always makes me cringe.. but aside from that it is really a duty of care for the seller to question the buyer in depth and find out about their knowledge and safety procedures. A lot of sellers at Hamm don't do that. Some can't, because of language barriers. There's often a lot of noise, very little privacy, and it would be almost impossible in my opinion to adequately vet someone to the standard most venemous breeders would vet here in the UK.

You also don't have to show any evidence of licensing or where the snake is going.

I don't think many people would go to Hamm with the intention of buying an illegal DWA and bringing it back. But how many morons are there who think (rightly) that DWA are absolutely amazing... and then just buy one spur of the moment without thinking? Without even knowing what the species is or doing any research? I'm sorry but I know people who went to Hamm this year who didn't even know what "DWA" stood for!

I also know you can get thrown out if you act drunk, but I also know people who went to Hamm last month with vodka and consumed quite a lot of beer, and weren't perhaps fully in control of themselves. A premises that sells alcohol and DWA no questions asked could lead to some problems...

I don't think buying any animal with that potential for danger at the wrong hands should be so casual as just handing over a bit of cash at a show, no questions asked.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

I take your point, but how many unlicensed bites have there been? Anyone stupid enough to just buy a hot for the status or on a whim is highly likely to get bitten, through stupidity, carelessness or plain lack of knowledge/experience. I agree, an unlicensed keeper getting bitten would be just what the fun nazis would need to start more legislation, but to be honest I really don't think that many idiots are that "into" hots, not so there would be any amount of people keeping them without a license. There's far more chance of them wanting to show off their Retic' or afrock than a cobra or Gabby


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

glidergirl said:


> Si, as a Euro veteran (Rich), Hamm prices are expensive! But it's hard to say what is a good price or not, it depends on availability at the time. It really is scary to think that the moron that came into the shop over the weekend wanting to own a gabby after having only a corn snake for three weeks, can go and buy one and bring it back. It's those people that are putting your 'hobby' in danger, how many unlicensed venomous bites will it take to secure a blanket ban on venomous snakes? The venomous world holds it's breath when a licensed keeper gets bitten as it is.


Na I agree, I see such a vary in prices in this country that its hard to know whats a good price or not, I tend to ask my mate and if he thinks its not bad then I go with it, I havnt ever been to Hamm personally, but always been told is relatively cheap, is there a good range there?


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Depends upon which one you go to, September tends to have more stock and December is cheaper and less people. There wasn't a great variation in types available when I've been, _Crotalus sp_. a few cobras, a few _Vipera sp_. Some _Heloderma_, last time there was a lovely 3m _Dendroaspis augusticeps_ for €100, some baby _Trimeresurus albolabris_ €25.
The really scary thing was traders selling _Androctonus_ scorps, _Latrodectus_ sp. and _Phoneutria nigriventer_ out in the main hall!!!


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## Viperkeeper (Aug 23, 2007)

Ouch!!:bash:


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## Morbid (Dec 11, 2006)

I have recieved some information that one organisation in Germany wants to make the keeping of all reptiles illegal, and they have managed making venomous snakes illegal in some parts of Germany already.

Also, a television-team was at the show this March, and was able to make a 13-year-old to buy a venomous snake. This "report", or whatever you would like to call it, will be in the air on television next week..

So, it seems like Mr. Izobel (manager of the show) kindof bit he´s own a**..

I am hoping to be able to get a link to the television-show later.


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

To be honest, if they were allowing a 13 year old kid to get away with buying a venomous snake then it wants stopping!


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

I don't see a problem, it is FAR too relaxed. I am amazed it's lasted this long TBH, imagine trying to setup a similar show in the UK?

"hello yes we'd like to hold a reptile expo, we have a fully insured section for venomous. Yes we will be keeping them in plastic tubs on tables. Hello? Hello?"

There isn't enough control.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I don't see why there is such a big problem, surely anyone who has the relevant experience to own DWA animals will have their own suppliers and or contacts who can sort them out with whatever they want.

I went to Hamm and went to the DWA section a couple of times (I bought my pair of Baroni off a bloke in there) and the sellers were fine to sell things to you without you havin any proof of a license, the bloke who sold me my Baroni offered me a Copperhead and Boomslang at the same time, people were crowdin about and close to the tables, someone gets pushed and knocks the table of eyelash vipers over, yay for multiple fatalaties.


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## Synergy (Dec 5, 2007)

i dont know anything about DWA keeping..

But if they are to continue after posting that they wont be... they should regulate it like a shop would and have it so you provide your licences thus keeping the balance of registered keepers buying them only...

This will prevent a n00b from buying one and getting seriously injured or worse because of the neglegence of himself and the person selling the snake.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Synergy said:


> i dont know anything about DWA keeping..
> 
> But if they are to continue after posting that they wont be... they should regulate it like a shop would and have it so you provide your licences thus keeping the balance of registered keepers buying them only...
> 
> This will prevent a n00b from buying one and getting seriously injured or worse because of the neglegence of himself and the person selling the snake.


Well the problem is that in the area of Germany (and many areas of the EU) that it is sold you do not need a license. Some of them only speak German not English. Will British people have to register and wear a badge so the DWA room would know that those people exclusively need to show a license?

It is technically customs duty to inspect goods coming into the country but they typically are undereducated and wouldn't have a clue what species you were bringing in unless it was labelled in big letters "ask me for my license".

And the majority of people drive through customs without being stopped anyway...


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## Synergy (Dec 5, 2007)

Athravan said:


> Well the problem is that in the area of Germany (and many areas of the EU) that it is sold you do not need a license. Some of them only speak German not English. Will British people have to register and wear a badge so the DWA room would know that those people exclusively need to show a license?


Wouldnt be such a bad idea to do...

They dont need to regulate there own laws but should to those that do have them. So yeah i think they should say if your country requires one then show us please. If not they cant enter this part of the show simple as..

Ok they may loose profit etc but i'd rather loose that than be the person who sold a snake that could kill someone to an uneducated person who bought one for a status symbol or some other reason.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Synergy said:


> Wouldnt be such a bad idea to do...
> 
> They dont need to regulate there own laws but should to those that do have them. So yeah i think they should say if your country requires one then show us please. If not they cant enter this part of the show simple as..
> 
> Ok they may loose profit etc but i'd rather loose that than be the person who sold a snake that could kill someone to an uneducated person who bought one for a status symbol or some other reason.


How do you know someone is from England then?

Unless you vet every single person who comes through the doors at the show and that will never happen.


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## Synergy (Dec 5, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> How do you know someone is from England then?
> 
> Unless you vet every single person who comes through the doors at the show and that will never happen.


I know what your sayin mate but there probably is a way to do it and would be up to the shows organisers to look into.

As they say " Nothing Is Impossible "


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Synergy said:


> I know what your sayin mate but there probably is a way to do it and would be up to the shows organisers to look into.
> 
> As they say " Nothing Is Impossible "


There is absolutely no way unless the doors opened at about 6am to vet every person going into the show to see where they are from, plus I and plenty of other people I know are fluent enough in other languages to pass for a different nationality if you were so inclined.

I think it's either have the room there, but get them housed safer and make the stall holders just have some questions for buyers ( but you will always get stall holders who just want a sale and won't follow procedure) or to cancel them full stop.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

it's also slightly unfair to place the emphasis on the seller (IMO) as it would mean knowing the laws for keeping hots europe wide, In some countries therte are regional variations (like in the USA where it's on a state by state basis).

So on those grounds it would be the sellers fault for selling to someone who lives in the wrong county/district/country for keeping hots.

Again on these grounds it would mean the potential buyer would have to show the seller where thye lived, expect the seller to know the relevant law(s) for that area and act accordingly. Hamm would need to be a three day affair because sales would take so long to complete.

I think the probelm here is that people really don't realise just how many keepers there are in the UK without a licence and just how easy it can be to get hold of these animals. Hamm however is a majopr source for the more unscrupulous traders who will sell to people in the UK without a licence. At least this will make it slightly harder for these people to aquire animals in such large numbers so easily, slightly harder for morons to get hold of these snakes. Despite what has been said in this thread about people not bothering to go all the way to germany for an illegal snake...they forget hundreds of people go over there "just" for leopard geckos, or corn snakes or royal morphs they could have got in the UK. It will also stop the "accidental" impulse type buys. The kind of person who'd run a mile if offered a hot in a "back room of the shop" type of deal may think differently once presented with a lovely array of pretty snakes for reasonable money while at a show (a show which lets not forget does have the odd rather drunk person wandering around). think of the amount of people who post on these forums that seem to see hot keeping as the pinacle or ultimate status symbol. How tempting will those 30 euro copperheads be? 

Overall I think this is a positive move, but more to the point I can't think of a sensible, logistically possible alternative.

scenario A:

Two germans, one who lives in an area where hots are legal and one where they are not. thye have a passport to prove their germanness but how does one prove to a seller (an american seller for example) if they live in the area it's legal or not? how many american snake traders or breeders would know a genuine german proof of address if they saw one? I probably speak more german than the average american, more french too with a bit of spanish or italian if needed. How hard would it be to speak in a funny voice and have a dutch seller or american seller beleive i'm anything other than english?

"hey there, you look like you could be briddish! can I see your licence?"

"Mein licence? Was ist das please thank you?. Mein english ist not soo good Jah"

"Aaah sorry buddy, here's your mamba, have a nice day."


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I believe in France theres no licenses anyway, dont know about Germany.


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## Mason (Jan 21, 2008)

SiUK said:


> I believe in France theres no licenses anyway, dont know about Germany.


I just picked random countries as examples.

there you go then. How hard do you reckon it would be to persuade a yank/whatever seller you're french? After all if they turned out to speak french, just walk on by until you find a seller who doesn't


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## Morbid (Dec 11, 2006)

The Herptile blog and my forum is updated with some new info..


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