# Pet shop and DWA



## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

Hi 

Im after information off people in the know.

Im wondering what the legal situation is on pet shops housing DWA.

I always thought that pet shops were exempt from DWA licence and just had to inform the council out of politeness as to what they are keeping??

if I am right then i would like to know what legally the council can do? can they stop a pet shop housing DWA??

Many thanks

Look forward to your responces.

Dave


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## bladeblaster (Sep 30, 2008)

they can stop you selling DWA. Certain councils do not allow selling DWA at all.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

DWAL does not cover a pet shop, however a petshop will need to get DWA species added to their PSL by the council.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

SiUK said:


> DWAL does not cover a pet shop, however a petshop will need to get DWA species added to their PSL by the council.


I understand that but legally can they refuse to add them to the licence if everything is met??
And im guessing a pet shop doesnt require a seperate visit from a vet just their usual inspection every 12 months?


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Daveyboy said:


> I understand that but legally can they refuse to add them to the licence if everything is met??
> And im guessing a pet shop doesnt require a seperate visit from a vet just their usual inspection every 12 months?


Yes they can refuse to place them on your PSL you wont find a pet shop in Birmingham for instance with any DWAL.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> Yes they can refuse to place them on your PSL you wont find a pet shop in Birmingham for instance with any DWAL.


I know a few councils like that but i also thought it was illegal for them to do this.

Im really after the legal side so if anyone has any nfo on that id be very nterested.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I have to be inspected and the exact species I want to keep added to my DWA in order to be licensed to keep them. 

As far as I'm aware, whilst PSL exempts you from the DWA, the council has final say over what animals can be kept under a PSL. My PSL specifically lists by animal type and I was told that whilst I could keep DWA if I chose, it would be after an inspection and each DWA species would need to be added to my license individually.

I am not allowed to keep kittens, or puppies on my premises for example, nor am I allowed to keep DWA animals that are not listed, because I have not been given permission to do so.

I require an inspection from the vet every time I amend my license for quantity or types of animals I keep, therefore I assume if you add DWA or any type of animal, or increase numbers, you will have to get a 2nd inspection from the vet before the new license is issued. I have applied before and had amendments added, they do actually cancel the old license and re-issue a new one with the new numbers/species on there in my council. The plus side with PSL is they can't charge you extra even if you do require additional visits.

I suspect that if you fought a legal battle and proved that you had done everything possible by the DWA and that the council could provide no actual valid reasons for denying you to keep DWA animals, then you may get it overturned in court - but this would be a lengthy and expensive process and so far as far as I know no one has even tried to fight a council over licensing rights when it comes to the PSL and several councils do put no DWA restrictions on the PSL license.

I don't think it's legal for councils to say, we don't like you so no DWA, but as long as they can think of even semi-plausable reasons such as public safety concerns, they can probably prevent it.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Another added piece of information my local pet shop have to hold a seperate DWAL on top of the PSL in order to keep their show caiman.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> Another added piece of information my local pet shop have to hold a seperate DWAL on top of the PSL in order to keep their show caiman.


Except that the DWAA makes it clear that the DWAA does NOT apply to licenced pet shops. The caiman would need to be added to teh PSL, but the council cannot force the shop to have a DWA licence as it goes against the Act itself.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

Spikebrit said:


> Another added piece of information my local pet shop have to hold a seperate DWAL on top of the PSL in order to keep their show caiman.


The seperate DWA licence is because there keeping it as a pet, if they had a price tag on it they wouldnt require the seperate DWA licence.

Thanks for the info guys, any more (esp on the legal side) would be gratefully recieved.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Daveyboy said:


> The seperate DWA licence is because there keeping it as a pet, if they had a price tag on it they wouldnt require the seperate DWA licence.
> 
> Thanks for the info guys, any more (esp on the legal side) would be gratefully recieved.


The DWAA states specifically that it does not apply to premises holding a valid PSL, or is a licenced zoo. It has nothing to do with whther the animal is a "pet" or for sale. It is another example of local authorities making up their own rules.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

ian14 said:


> The DWAA states specifically that it does not apply to premises holding a valid PSL, or is a licenced zoo. It has nothing to do with whther the animal is a "pet" or for sale. It is another example of local authorities making up their own rules.


Fairenogh. I agree on some council website it clearly staes that and others it doesnt even mention DWA at all.


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

Some counties offer them on the PSL as default with no extra aplication, others you have to aply for it. As far as I am aware no matter which council you come under they cannot point blank refuse to issue you with one with out very good reason, not just because they don't like DWA in their district.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

Anyone know whos best to speak to about the leagalities of what the council and and cannot do?


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## volly (Mar 6, 2009)

Just a thought Dave but what about Citizen's Advice?

Citizens Advice - the charity for your community

Good luck :2thumb:


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

ian14 said:


> The DWAA states specifically that it does not apply to premises holding a valid PSL, or is a licenced zoo. It has nothing to do with whther the animal is a "pet" or for sale. It is another example of local authorities making up their own rules.



That was my understanding as well, however my local council demanded that a DWAL be held alongside the PSL in order for the shop to hold the resident caiman. They refused to add any DWAA animals to the PSL unless the premesis held a DWAL.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Daveyboy said:


> Anyone know whos best to speak to about the leagalities of what the council and and cannot do?


There was a thread a while back in which Cris Newman from the FBH posted a lot of information on this.


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Birminghams reason for not allowing dwa animals on PSL is because they will not issue a DWAL licence to anyone in the area then petshops in birmingham cant sell them so there is no reason for them to have them.
Brummies a yampy buggers:lol2:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

If Birmingham City Council are stating this then they are acting illegally and should be taken to Court, something I am very willing to do in the right circumstances. 




leecb0 said:


> Birminghams reason for not allowing dwa animals on PSL is because they will not issue a DWAL licence to anyone in the area then petshops in birmingham cant sell them so there is no reason for them to have them.
> Brummies a yampy buggers:lol2:


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> If Birmingham City Council are stating this then they are acting illegally and should be taken to Court, something I am very willing to do in the right circumstances.


 I didn't think that was right, i'm sure i heard this case happened before and came under a breach of human rights due to the fact that every other area in the country gets issued them no one council can refuse to issue due to their disslike of DWA.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ian14 said:


> Except that the DWAA makes it clear that the DWAA does NOT apply to licenced pet shops. The caiman would need to be added to teh PSL, but the council cannot force the shop to have a DWA licence as it goes against the Act itself.





Daveyboy said:


> The seperate DWA licence is because there keeping it as a pet, if they had a price tag on it they wouldnt require the seperate DWA licence.
> 
> Thanks for the info guys, any more (esp on the legal side) would be gratefully recieved.



Actually Stoke-on-Trent city council do not allow DWA of any sort to be held under a PSL.
I didn't think this was right either until i applied for my PSL and was told about this,along with the legal rights that my countys lisecening offer took out.They will happily grant you a DWA license if you meet there requirements but they wont allow you to keep DWA animals under a PSL,nor can you sell them under a PSL even with a DWA in Stoke-on-Trent


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

wildlifewarrior said:


> Actually Stoke-on-Trent city council do not allow DWA of any sort to be held under a PSL.
> I didn't think this was right either until i applied for my PSL and was told about this,along with the legal rights that my countys lisecening offer took out.They will happily grant you a DWA license if you meet there requirements but they wont allow you to keep DWA animals under a PSL,nor can you sell them under a PSL even with a DWA in Stoke-on-Trent


Another example of a local authority acting outside the law. The DWAA is very clear in that licenced pet shops are exempt from the Act. Therefore, a council cannot force a licenced pet shop to hold a DWAL. Further, the DWAA has nothing to do with the selling or buying of DWA species, purely on keeping them. Accepted best practice is that a buyer will show the seller their licence, but there is no requirement under the DWAA for this. So the council cannot legally ban the sale of such animals.


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## wildlifewarrior (Jun 26, 2008)

ian14 said:


> Another example of a local authority acting outside the law. The DWAA is very clear in that licenced pet shops are exempt from the Act. Therefore, a council cannot force a licenced pet shop to hold a DWAL. Further, the DWAA has nothing to do with the selling or buying of DWA species, purely on keeping them. Accepted best practice is that a buyer will show the seller their licence, but there is no requirement under the DWAA for this. So the council cannot legally ban the sale of such animals.


Again ....i argued this fact with them and put up the legislation to them about this, but i was still bumped off, theres only one petshop in stoke that have DWA animals and they have to hold a DWAL....as far as i believe they did take the matter up to court about this issue as they had the same view as you have....but still they were required a DWAL which they now have.

your welcome to Contact them yourself mate, her name is Alison Harrison and head of environmental health of stoke-on-trent city council. They wills till tell you the stoke county will no allow you reguardless of what other countys allow nor even if you take futher legal action


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

Again this is not legal fo the council to point blank refuse DWA is it???

Is this grey are all because there is no real guide lines for DWA across the country and purely left to the discretion of 1 or 2 people in the council who dont no arse from elbow??


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Daveyboy said:


> Again this is not legal fo the council to point blank refuse DWA is it???
> 
> Is this grey are all because there is no real guide lines for DWA across the country and purely left to the discretion of 1 or 2 people in the council who dont no arse from elbow??


Partly. There are no national standards for the applicant, and no national fee. This is one of the reasons why it can vary from very cheap and easy to get to extremely expensive and difficult. However, legally, no council can refuse to issues a licence - they can only refuse an individual application if they can justify their reasons for doing so.
There should be some reforms coming in in April which should hopefully make the application process the same throughout the UK.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

ian14 said:


> Partly. There are no national standards for the applicant, and no national fee. This is one of the reasons why it can vary from very cheap and easy to get to extremely expensive and difficult. However, legally, no council can refuse to issues a licence - they can only refuse an individual application if they can justify their reasons for doing so.
> There should be some reforms coming in in April which should hopefully make the application process the same throughout the UK.


If they actually do that it will be good, but they sed that about agenda for change in the NHS ie people doing the same job up and down country would be paid the same, but that hasnt happened. so like anything good idea in theory but will it work...................
I honestly thought the council were supose to work with you not just put up a load of red tape.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Daveyboy said:


> If they actually do that it will be good, but they sed that about agenda for change in the NHS ie people doing the same job up and down country would be paid the same, but that hasnt happened. so like anything good idea in theory but will it work...................
> I honestly thought the council were supose to work with you not just put up a load of red tape.


The DWA review has already been partly done, in that in October 2007 the list of restricted species was amended, some coming off, such as mangroves, others going on. The second part, due in April, is to do with the mechanics of obtaining a licence. It is not a good idea in theory, as it is happening. Exactly what the changes are have yet to be announced but it is widely thought to be a standard set fee across the country, biannual rather than annual renewals, renewal from the date of the first application, rather than January 1st each year (currently if you got a licence in December, you would have to renew in January) and standardised conditions for granting the licence.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

ian14 said:


> The DWA review has already been partly done, in that in October 2007 the list of restricted species was amended, some coming off, such as mangroves, others going on. The second part, due in April, is to do with the mechanics of obtaining a licence. It is not a good idea in theory, as it is happening. Exactly what the changes are have yet to be announced but it is widely thought to be a standard set fee across the country, biannual rather than annual renewals, renewal from the date of the first application, rather than January 1st each year (currently if you got a licence in December, you would have to renew in January) and standardised conditions for granting the licence.


Its a good idea standardising everything as long as someone in the know is sorting it and then implimenting, the problem is it will be a bunch of pen pushers making the decisions causing more problems


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Daveyboy said:


> Its a good idea standardising everything as long as someone in the know is sorting it and then implimenting, the problem is it will be a bunch of pen pushers making the decisions causing more problems


It is an amendment to the Act which goes through a lengthy consultation before being agreed through Parliament. Once brought in, councils will have no choice as it will be part of the Act itself.


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

ian14 said:


> It is an amendment to the Act which goes through a lengthy consultation before being agreed through Parliament. Once brought in, councils will have no choice as it will be part of the Act itself.


Itll be very interesting to see how this will affect councils like birmingham and my councils. At least if it implimented across the country we will all know where we stand rather than having to guess what our council wants to grant DWA


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## leecb0 (Apr 14, 2009)

Personaly i think its a good idea not letting Brummies have deadly snakes:lol2:


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

leecb0 said:


> Personaly i think its a good idea not letting Brummies have deadly snakes:lol2:


LMAO :2thumb:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

It is unlawful for a Council to not consider any application for a DWAA Licence, or indeed a Pet Shop Licence. Local Authorities MUST conceder any applications and can only decline such applications with due reason. However, there are many Local Authorities, such as it would appear Birmingham City Council, that habitually break the law. As with any ‘criminal’ that habitually ignores the law of the land they should be taken to Court and punished! 

The formal amendments to the DWAA will not come into effect in September, it is unlikely they will make the April slot. Further government will issue formal guidance to all Local Authorities latter this year on how the DWAA should be applied, this will make bringing a wayward Local Authority to account much easier. 

If people are dissatisfied with the service they receive from their Local Authority then it is worth remembering there is a body to which you can turn. The Local Authorities Ombudsman http://www.lgo.org.uk/ Right at this moment in time due to that fact there is no formal guidance from government LAO may not be the most effective means of dealing with rouge Councils as the LAO themselves have little to go on in respect of the DWAA. However, come September this will be very different.


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

Are local councils at liberty to tell people if anybody in the area has a DWA or would this come under data protection?? obviously they wouldnt give names and addresses but could they disclose how many people have the licences and what animals they own??

Just been nosey really!!

Been on my local councils website and the form for DWA looks really simple! nowhere near as complex as i would have expected and the fee is £128 which i imagine is pretty cheap compared to some!


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Yes, under a Freedom of Information Act request Local Authorities are duty bound to confirm if there is a DWAA licence holder within their jurisdiction, they can also be asked what species are kept. However, the LA is not permitted to provide any information that would identify the keeper. 





Joolz1975 said:


> Are local councils at liberty to tell people if anybody in the area has a DWA or would this come under data protection?? obviously they wouldnt give names and addresses but could they disclose how many people have the licences and what animals they own??
> 
> Just been nosey really!!
> 
> Been on my local councils website and the form for DWA looks really simple! nowhere near as complex as i would have expected and the fee is £128 which i imagine is pretty cheap compared to some!


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## Joolz1975 (Jul 23, 2009)

Chris Newman said:


> Yes, under a Freedom of Information Act request Local Authorities are duty bound to confirm if there is a DWAA licence holder within their jurisdiction, they can also be asked what species are kept. However, the LA is not permitted to provide any information that would identify the keeper.


 
Thanks Chris, that is interesting! would be interested to know if there are any so might bother the council and find out !


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

i just hope the reforms dont affect the price too much, i only pay £59!


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## Daveyboy (Dec 27, 2007)

paulrimmer69 said:


> i just hope the reforms dont affect the price too much, i only pay £59!


it shouldnt. councils cannot make money off it they can only recover costs, so it should be in line with pet shop licences. in theory that it, but as we all know alot of couuncils put huge price on it to put people off, not really allowed.


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

paulrimmer69 said:


> i just hope the reforms dont affect the price too much, i only pay £59!


 
you only pay £59 for your PSL? :gasp:


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

NBLADE said:


> you only pay £59 for your PSL? :gasp:


no for a dwa license


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## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

paulrimmer69 said:


> no for a dwa license


 
ahh thats still a few hundred cheaper then it is for me, :bash:


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