# Ethics and Legality of live vertebrate prey.



## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

I've started this thread because the poll on the snake thread is being taken out of context.

There are many arguments both for and against the feeding of live vertebrate prey to reptiles. In order to give everyone a chance to air their views without hijacking the other thread, please express them here (and avoid directing abuse at any individual in particular).

Please bear in consider the following: 


UK legislation currently outlaws the causing of unnecessary suffering to any vertebrate animal.
Expert testimony could argue the feeding of live vertebrate prey causes unecessary suffering to the prey. And that the collective suffering of the mass of prey items required to sustain the life of a single predatory animal outweighs the suffering of that predatory animal starving.
Current legislation is not species-specific and so must be applied to all animals. Therefore if you were to legalise the feeding of live vertebrate prey in cases where animals were "picky" eaters, one would be free from prosecution if they were to feed live puppies/kittens/etc. to exotic animals such as big cats, or large boidae.
Enjoy.


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Then I guess the answer is just don't get caught.


----------



## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

The duty of care that has been outlined in the AWA is basically 'husbandry'...........what is husbandry? to all intense purposes it means to be a provider. To provide everything what your animals needs.

The AWA is fague to say the least, the Act can be mis-interpreted or maybe we should say, interpreted into whatever side of the arguement you stand on.

I think we will all have to wait until to 'code of practice' is written, and as it stands now, consults your vet when you have a snake that wont feed. : victory:


----------



## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

these sort of threads always go the same way


----------



## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Why would there be any need to feed live prey to big cats ? They will always eat dead prey, as for boids well if they were that picky then I'd have no qualms about feeding live.

Back to your first point on the other thread. 

There is no law specifically against feeding live prey. There are the unnecessary cruelty parts but nothing that actually prohibits the live feeding itself. Obviously it amounts to almost the same thing, but the wording is different.
So it is legal to feed live (ie it currently isnt against the law) but you could well get brought up on a cruelty charge which you would have to prove to the judges satisfaction that you are doing it in the best interests of all the animals.

Now if you want to take it to extremes then you could stop us killing animals for food. Which is what the nutters want, then we could all eat veggie and chop down all the forests so we can grow more grain.

Mike


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

I still enjoy hanging cats


----------



## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Tops said:


> I still enjoy hanging cats


Yes but that's a hobby not for food :lol2:

Mike


----------



## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

I haven't started the thread to argue with anyone - just to give people an opportunity to air their views. Masticophis is correct with his/her description of the legislation.

I'll reply to the veggie bit (I'm not veggie or vegan by the way!), apparently (so I've been told) vegetarian land use is less than livestock land use.


----------



## PendleHog (Dec 21, 2005)

SiUK said:


> these sort of threads always go the same way


They certainly do...

The second this thread starts to become personal or users start antagonising each other it will be closed. I dont like to say it, but we have a track record of not managing to keep these threads civil :roll:


----------



## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Yes but livestock can use land that isn't suitable to use for agriculture, so to increase the land for food crops you would need to chop down existing forests, to a certain extent the livestock can live on hillsides and stuff like that and still allow them to be pretty natural, well compared to wheat fields.

Mike


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

masticophis said:


> Yes but that's a hobby not for food :lol2:
> 
> Mike


oh yeah :lol2:


Live and let live. Its only a rodent. Vermin of the order Ratticulus!


----------



## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Probably, I don't have much of an interest in farm animals so I couldn't really put up much of a debate. I expect dairy and meat cows are kept on grassland pastures though to improve the quality of their produce.

We digress :lol2:


----------



## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

What about the un-necassary suffering of battery hens, having chemical burns on their bowed and useless legs, due to the ammonia from their own sh!t. 

What about the suffering of the lamb when it has its throat slit.

Or the suffering of the flock when the lambs are taken. (i have seen this happen. When the van pulles up they all run, and as the lambs are taken, the ewe's scream. Brings tears)

Or the suffering caused by the acute heamorrage of rat poison, the slow and painful internal bleeding that kills the animal. 

Or the suffering of the countless vermin that become quarry to legal gunman (or air-gunman) 

I think live feeding is a much better way to go, than the aforementioned deaths. 

Also, As the legislation stands, it is legal as long as you are not taking bets, or doing it publically. Or abusing the prey item before offerign.


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

what about the children in africa?

poor things

noone ever thinks of the children....


----------



## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Yeah, but you are the only ones eating african children Tops...


----------



## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

darkdan99 said:


> What about the un-necassary suffering of battery hens, having chemical burns on their bowed and useless legs, due to the ammonia from their own sh!t.
> 
> What about the suffering of the lamb when it has its throat slit.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure where you have gained that understanding. The betting and public exhibition aside, the following simple piece of legislation prohibits the act (Section 1a, Protection of Animals Act 1911 - still valid):

"shall cruelly beat, kick, ill-treat, over-ride, over-drive, over-load, torture, infuriate, or terrify any animal, or shall cause or procure, or, being the owner, permit any animal to be so used, or shall, by wantonly or unreasonably doing or omitting to do any act, or causing or procuring the commission or omission of any act, cause any unnecessary suffering, or, being the owner, permit any unnecessary suffering to be so caused to any animal;"

By introducing a live mouse to a snake you cruelly terrify the mouse and cause unecessary suffering. Whilst it has been argued that captive bred mice have no innate fear of snakes, they will be terrified at the moment of capture for what could be longer than 10 seconds before they die.

There is no necessity in the keeping of a mouse in captivity to introduce it to a snake. The offender may argue that it is necessary to do so for the snake to survive however in legal terms this is not the case. It is necessary for the snake to eat to survive, however the ends do not justify the means.


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Magpye said:


> By introducing a live mouse to a snake you cruelly terrify the mouse and cause unecessary suffering. Whilst it has been argued that captive bred mice have no innate fear of snakes, they will be terrified at the moment of capture for what could be longer than 10 seconds before they die.


If i blind it first it shouldnt be an issue.

Also how do these laws relate to an adult female mouse killing all its young? Should people be arrested for that?


----------



## louie (Mar 9, 2005)

I have and do feed live rodents to snakes that will only take Live however this is only if I have tried everything else first. I wouldn’t ever feed live for fun and certainly wouldn’t do it if i did not have to!

If it comes down to it I would rather my snake lives and has to be fed on live rather than die from starvation.


----------



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I can only respond in the same vain as the other thread.
The law states that you cannot cause distress to a captive animal ( kept as a pet). Also I don't know if the fact that the mice kept for feeder food are pets orno counts.
It also states that you must provide food etc for any pet you have in your care.
Therefore if you have a snake/lizard etc that will only accept live food then that is the only way in which to fed your snake/lizard etc then suerly one law would outweigh the other??
Having read a few posts I must say I had a mouse live with a colombian rainbow boa for over three weeks before I removed it. 20 yrs ago. The snake mustn't have been hungry she would usually eat within seconds.


----------



## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Magpye said:


> There is no necessity in the keeping of a mouse in captivity to introduce it to a snake. The offender may argue that it is necessary to do so for the snake to survive however in legal terms this is not the case. It is necessary for the snake to eat to survive, however the ends do not justify the means.


I'm still not sure where you get this part. As I said before this is a grey area. There is NO law against this specifically and basically if it went to court you would have to prove the case, the relatively quick death of the rodent vs the very slow wasting away of the snake through starvation.
You would also have to prove that you have tried everything else to get the snake to feed. So it is up to the JUDGE to decide if the ends justify the means.

In legal terms both the snake and the rodent have a right to live, it's up to the judge to decide which one is in the right. There is no closed case stopping you feeding live in certain circumstances, but people like the RSPCA could certainly try to prosecute you. 
Chances are that they wouldn't win the case, but what they would do is drag court hearings through until you've plowed so much money into legal fees, then just drop it and leave you below the poverty line with no money as you've sold everything. Also they would have taken all your animals off you by this time (through very dodgy means) and then proceeded in most cases in killing or losing a few of them. Also charging you for the time spent in their 'care' even if they drop the case.

As has been said before, this is very wrong and we need an independent prosecutor to take on the case while people like the RSPCA actually have to provide evidence. Much like the Scottish laws, that way bullying can't go on as much. And we get a fair trial.


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

i don't believe there have ever been any sucessful prosecutions of reptile keepers feeding a live mouse to a snake who may die otherwise..

my personal take on it, is that unless you are a veggie, you argue from very shakey ground.

life require food to live. as a keeper you have a responsibility to provide you animals with the right food they need to survive. if that entails feeding their natural choice of prey (i.e a live rodent) then so be it. i would be failing in my duty as a keeper, if i were so blinked as to not be able to cope with that fact.

its not un natural for a snake to attack and kill a live animal after all, they must wonder what on earth all the fuss is about.

i think the mouse "worrying for 10 seconds" is less traumatic on the individual animal, than the lorry load of calves unloading into a slaughter house, and the subsequent queing for death those animals do. And no, i enjoy a good rare steak as much as the next meat eater... but i realise the reality of the route by which it comes to my plate.

to be brutal, i don't know ANY experienced knowledgeable decent reptile keepers who are so blinkered that they would say "i will never live feed". Generally we all accept that sometimes its part of keeping them, and you have to stay sensible about doing it. needs must when the devil rides i suppose.

it does bug me tho, when people bang on about it being "against the law" which is just NOT the case, as mike rightly points out. 

N


----------



## LeeH (Jan 26, 2005)

so much can go wrong in forcefeeding its untrue...stressing the body on an already weakened animal could be the thing that kills it sadly or if not done with greatest care could cause permanent damage like jaw damage bespecially in younger snakes but im suprised how accepted it is and offers on how to do it are commonplace
in my opinion it is crueler to get a snake to endure pain until its demise from malnutrition than a quick death it will do to a mouse bred for that purpose..hey ive kept mice and rats as pets too but animal in your care come first as you as a keeper have decided to purchase such an animal and you have todeal with what it eats or find an alternative pet and no i would not wait till its emaciated to a manner until going to that option as it is also a duty of care to keep animals in a good state of health too as if it gets to that manner it can take months to get it up to health again as some will agree particularly people who rescue snakes


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

ah, you guys and your laws. we have that saying: government that governs least, governs best.


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

thats the thing tho habu... our government does NOT have a law in place that says "it is illegal to live feed a snake who may die otherwise"


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

it seems like there is some confusion on the matter. i think some people need to spend some more time in the wilderness. concrete and easy chairs, tend to make people a little judgmental. some people actually think that the preferred prey of snakes is a downside. they probibly have only ate meat that was neatly wrapped in plastic wrap at the market. things like this happen when people are further detached for their natural world. people need to put down the ipods for a while and learn how to build a campfire or lean-to.


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

there is only confusion, for those who have not bothered to learn the facts!!!

(which pretty much describes a lot of mankinds more glaring cock ups)

N


----------



## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

one could be really bloody minded and argue that offering defrost is unnatural, and with the new AWB in place stating that animals should be allowed to express natural behaviour, that Live feeding would actually be in the best interest of the snake.

Ofcourse, If a snake is more than willing to take defrost then that is better all round, but someone said that the live mouse endures 10 seconds of terror I wonder if a mouse that is being gassed feels that terror,(people will argue they just fall asleep, but ask someone who has misjudged the mix in a rodent reeper how is feels to inhail the fumes, I dont think they would call it relaxing) or a rat that is put in to a pillow case to be hit over the head, that can smell the death of its predecesors, feels terror ?

Its such a grey area.

When ever possible I feed defrost, I also feed Fresh so my fussy snakes and fresh kill (still twitching but dead) to enduce a non feeder.

I would use live over force feeding ever time. (but not over a quiet gentle assist feed which is a mile away from force feeding)


----------



## BassFerret (Apr 11, 2007)

If you have to do it for an animal that won't otherwise eat, well, fine. Can't argue; it's one of those things that sometimes has to be done.

However, I've had several people come to me in the shop (I work part time at a herp shop) and say how much 'fun' it is to put a live mouse in with their snake.

Those guys? I would like to hit with the full force of the law.

Or a stick with nails in it.


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

HABU said:


> ah, you guys and your laws. we have that saying: government that governs least, governs best.


We also have a saying - What they dont know, wont hurt em.

They gotta find me first ............. and you ain't seen me - right!


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Tops said:


> We also have a saying - What they dont know, wont hurt em.
> 
> They gotta find me first ............. and you ain't seen me - right!


haha!! we think alike!


----------



## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Nerys said:


> there is only confusion, for those who have not bothered to learn the facts!!!
> 
> (which pretty much describes a lot of mankinds more glaring cock ups)
> 
> N



Facts are something that a great many people appear to be confused about, yet despite printing Section 1a of the Protection of Animals Act 1911 it seems the confusion remains. Regardless of what you may have read on the internet, been told by friends, or concluded by yourself through forums such as these, the act of causing suffering to any animal in the UK, be it domestic or otherwise, can result in criminal prosecution. I can say this knowing the facts being employed by the Police.

Fact - is that the Police are too under-resourced and over-stretched to commit themselves to deal with these offences unless they are profoundly cruel, which is why many people are of the opinion that it is not unlawful. The Fact is that it is unlawful, however it is overlooked. Any case that does goto court requires expert witness. The only expert witness relied upon in court is that of a vets. If you goto a number of vets throughout the country from different backgrounds and practices, you will find they give a different expert opinion.

I only raise these matters, as I have stated to those that have PM'd me, is because there may be impressionable juveniles reading these threads, that go away with the idea that it is OK to offer live mice to their snakes because it is not against the law.

I will not be returning to the point, I have made the law very clear, and the facts very clear. If people could only take a moment to separate their concerns for the snake or the mouse, and consider what is written in law, they will realise it is quite clear-cut. A moments suffering for a single mouse pales in comparison to the prolongued suffering of a single snake. However, if that snake lives for 20 years, eats 2 rodents a week, does the suffering of over 2000 rodents outweigh the suffering of a single snake?

I do not propose to argue this case, and accept that a great many of you will still disagree. A forum is not a suitable place in which to negotiate, find common grounds, and come to a general consensus. But please consider that there may be young children learning from these forums from people they may respect that it is socially acceptable to offer live mice as food.

That is all I have to say on the matter.


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

the fact is. that it is NOT illegal to live feed vertebrate prey IF done in an acceptable mannor to a snake whose life is at risk otherwise.

there is NO law against doing this.

i could privately prosecute you for NOT doing it, and causing un necessary suffering to the snake, by keeping in captivity, not catering to its natural needs, and starving it to death. in the vast majority of cases, they can be weaned onto dead feeds once they "know" what a lab mouse is to begin with, maybe, having never tried it, you would not know that, but a little looking into it would have made that clear for you!

do you KNOW what a snake who has not eaten does? in the end, they self digest internally.. they digest their own stomach.. and die as a result.

and you think THAT is ok?

yes, there is a law to prevent UN NECCESARY suffering. but there is NOT a law against live feeding vertebrates to animals who may be comprimised otherwise. it is not "unlawful" as you put it in this case.

getting a vet to agree to provide evidence to support this, would be very simple.. as all true reptile vets know the score.

i have never said it is "socially acceptable". those are your words and i would thank you not to plant them in my mouth..

i have said that it is NOT illegal UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES to live feed a snake who may die otherwise. 

please, if you are going to plant words in my mouth, use the right ones.

Nerys


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

taken from a post made by darkdan earlier this year:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/general-herp-chat/28680-live-feeding-laws.html

Firstly, this is not a debate, or discussion into the practices, nor is it for you to say how good, or bad you think it is. 

Myself, and a few others have been making countless posts, telling people of the legalities of live feeding.

This is quoted from British Parlements resources site. 

 


> Currently under the 1911 Act it is not illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another unless you cause it unnecessary suffering, so that would have to be the result of a court case and the judge would have to make a decision.
> 
> Those of us who have been involved with reptiles will argue that a mouse that is being produced for food really has no cognizance of what is going on and exhibits no fear.
> 
> Whilst we absolutely do not want to encourage livefeeding, we think we need some clarity as to whether that is going to be made illegal under this clause of fighting. Our concerns are, because of Clause 3(iv)(c), the need to be able to exhibit normal behavior patterns, that snakes in the wild feed on life prey, there are no carrion feeding snakes, so that would mean we are not going to be able to feed them frozen food; we are going to have to feed them live mice, and equally we would be opposed to having to introduce that.





> this practice is currently legal so long as not practiced in a public place. There has always been confusion over the legality of this practice as no regulation directly relating to this has ever been decreed. Many millions of rodents are destroyed every year by break back traps and poison, compared to these methods the kill by a snake is swift and efficient


 

Basically, the laws as they are DO NOT ban live feeding, but experts and animal welfare groups DISCOURAGE it. 

The new laws concerning animal welfare may IN THE FUTURE make it illegal, but there is an equal chance that they will make it ILLEGAL TO FEED F/T, or PREKILLED.

Because, under proposed versions, they will make it a legal requirement that natural behavior is exibited, and as said, this would mean live feeding only. 

Another proposal outlaws it completely. This would mean alot of dead reptiles(boiga, and other species that will not take FT/prekilled.)

Basically, i cannot see either of these versions getting through, and i foresee the laws remaining the same. 

The ambiguity probably arose from other laws, banning fighting such as cock fights, and bull fights etc. 

 some people claim that placing a live mouse with a snake for the purposes of a feeding is still deliberate intent to induce them to fight  
BUT when it comes down to it, the practice is legal.

I CAN LEGALLY, IF I WANTED TO, PUT A PUPPY WITH A BURMESE PYTHON, THE SAME AS I CAN A MOUSE AND A ROYAL, OR A RABBIT AND A BOA. 
It is my choice as to whether or not i do this, and i personally choose not to. 

All quotations can be found on:
UK Parliament - Publications

(Disclaimer; i do not condone live feeding, under normal circumstance, or where there is a alternative, but in some cases it is necessary, and no matter what our opinions, it is ultimatly LEGAL)


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

i live feed daily.

the fact its crickets instead of mice doesnt mean much to me either way


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

did you know last year, there was nearly something passed, that would have classified crickets as "pets" this of course would have impacted heavily on sales of livefoods for reptiles!

N


----------



## Nerys (Apr 18, 2005)

and incidently, just in case poeple are really stupid enough to think i condone just chucking a live one in for the sake of it

THIS is what a MOUSE can do to a snake, this is what can happen if you do not treat livefeeding with maturity and respect.

live feeding is not a game, live feeding is something you do to prevent your snake from dying




























live feeding is NOT illegal, but it should not just be done for the sake of it.

Nerys


----------



## masticophis (Jan 14, 2007)

Thank you Nerys and others for backing me up here.

I do hate to see the LAW misquoted for the benefit of an arguement, thats what these nutter AR types tend to do.

I think it is made pretty clear on almost any post that concerns live feeding that it is a very much last resort and that it is generally frowned upon. Also that you could still go to court over it if it isn't justified. 
If you did go to court it would be over the cruelty charge NOT the livefeeding, as that is the only one that is against the law.

I think that most people on here are at least fairly sensible and can see the right thing to do. Certainly anyone keeping a reptile must be old enough and mature enough to look at the facts and decide for themselves, after all they have the responsibility for an animals life so can't be too immature (I hope)

Mike


----------



## jamesfox (Apr 24, 2007)

for all the good people out there that feed to keep there animals alive there are hundreds if not more that make it sport eg look at utube loads on frogs snakes ect where there throwing in mice for fun watching there pet rip them apart this is entertaiment to them theres forums when they post when its going to happen so people can watch!


----------



## Dirteewrongen (Jan 6, 2007)

Magpye said:


> I only raise these matters, as I have stated to those that have PM'd me, is because there may be impressionable juveniles reading these threads, that go away with the idea that it is OK to offer live mice to their snakes because it is not against the law.


When you began sending me your views by PM last night, you were referring to the cruelty of feeding live animals - bringing panthers eating puppies and kittens into it ? 
So, if live feeding a rodent to a snake on the verge is wrong because its cruel to feed something living - How do you cope feeding your reptiles live food everyday? Is it not their natural food? Are there not slight risks that the live food can nibble and irritate reptiles? If you feed mealworms and the like, is there not a risk with them? Are they not living creatures? Do they not feel? What will you be doing if, as Nerys says, they did class crickets etc. as pets ? Wouldn't feeding them live be illegal in your eyes? Will your reptiles be starving to death? 
As far as I can see, no one is condoning livefeeding in general, they are however, saying that they would do it if their snakes lives depended on it. Once they have taken live, prekilled would be the next step. No one is saying 'feed your snakes thousands of live mice', what we are saying is that we care about our animals and would do whats needed to get them back to health and eating (pk defrost).


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

Nerys said:


> and incidently, just in case poeple are really stupid enough to think i condone just chucking a live one in for the sake of it
> 
> THIS is what a MOUSE can do to a snake, this is what can happen if you do not treat livefeeding with maturity and respect.
> 
> ...


 
Jesus those pics are horrendous. I was looking at rat teeth the other day. I wouldnt wanna be bitten never mind a snake.


----------



## poizon (Jan 7, 2007)

but if you are not prepard to live feed (only if it was *absultly* nessecary) then should you get that animal? dont we try to promote responcibilty for reptiles? and if you own a reptile, then you have a responsilbilty to provide for ALL its needs to make sure it remains healthy.

It is such a dogy discussion as i'm sure most peep are in two minds, on the one hand, you have a reptile thats may be condemed to a slow and painful death, and on the other, you got the cute little mouse, who equally has the right to live. But saying that, dont those frozen mice have the rights?

either way a mouse has to die, why is it worse when the snake does it than when a human does it? the main thing is thats it is ONLY if it is nesecary and NEVER for fun ect and ALWAYS if you ensure no un-nesecary stress or harm is caused.

As for the law, there are ALWAYS loop holes to be found, if you say its against the law, then i garentee there are peep out there who can find the loopholes.


----------



## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

Given that it is apparent there are passionate individuals involved in the debate, I reviewed the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and compared it, as has been mentioned earlier on the thread, to Parliamentary Hansards. 

Legislation is open to interpretation until a precedent is set by means of case law. This is the process in which a case goes to court and a Judge decides on the correct interpretation of the law as it is currently written.

Herpetologists have pointed out, as quoted in an earlier post, that the act of feeding live vertebrates is not an offence in itself, but the causing of unecessary suffering is; and that it has not been tested at court as to whether an offence is being committed.

To compare these Hansards to those of the Scottish Parliamentary (The Scottish Parliament - Environment and Rural Development Committee Official Report), who conincidently implemented a near identical Act using the same legislative wording as the Animal Welfare Act:

*The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Rhona Brankin): *I reassure Elaine Smith that, under the bill as introduced, it would be an offence for a person to feed a live protected animal to another animal. As soon as an animal comes under man's control, it becomes a protected animal. Under section 17, it will be an offence to cause a protected animal unnecessary suffering. I make it clear that live feeding would already be caught by the bill, so I ask the committee to reject amendment.​
And so whilst the law may still be "grey" in this area, I would ask that people respect the interpretations of others and do not simply tell them they are incorrect in their understanding simply because of a difference in opinion. 

Below is a series of extracts from the Act, so that none can say that I have "misquoted" or "misinterpreted" the law. 


Animal Welfare Act 2006
(http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060045_en.pdf)

 *[FONT=&quot]“Protected animal”*[/FONT]
An animal is a “protected animal” for the purposes of this Act if—
…
(b) it is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary
basis,
*[FONT=&quot]Fighting etc.*[/FONT]
(1) A person commits an offence if he—
(a) causes an animal fight to take place, or attempts to do so;

In this section—
“animal fight” means an occasion on which a protected animal is placed
with an animal, or with a human, for the purpose of fighting, wrestling
or baiting;

*[FONT=&quot]Duty of person responsible for animal to ensure welfare*[/FONT]
(1) A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in
all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is
responsible are met to the extent required by good practice.
(2) For the purposes of this Act, an animal’s needs shall be taken to include—
….
(e) its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.



Note I am not expressing an opinion here, merely presenting the facts of the matter. If you have nothing constructive to present, and simply wish to express an opinion, please do so with maturity.


----------



## talltom69 (Dec 8, 2006)

Only in a world this s***ty (some areas in all countries) do we complain about a person feeding a live rat/mouse to a reptile and its suffering , when all around us there is daily death, murder and really poor qualitys of life in its thousands.

I find it almost funny in a way seeing peoples reactions of where they are intent on causing/wishing harm on someone because they fed a rodent to a snake.
Im sure these same people wouldn't be so happy if there home was infested with mice/rats lol.

I think unless someone is generally feeding live to an animal for the sake of fun and their viewing pleasure (youtube and the goat to a rock python spring to mind) then yes we should be punishing them, but with death and violence, I think not.

As mentioned before, we dont get up im arms over the thousands of slaughtered livestock (pigs, sheep, cows etc) each day, so why over a pesky rat or mouse.

I think f/t rodents are best, but so what if someone is feeding a live rodent to their snake for its feed, who are we to say they are wrong if its done in goodwill and not for ones viewing pleasure.

Almost every US breeder site I have looked at for snakes all feed their stock on livefeed, yet Im sure Ralph Davis, Bob Clark etc is not innundated with threatening emails.

i think we live in a society where we are wrapped up in cotton wool too much.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

ahhh! i can smell some fresh air. personally, i've always thought it was wrong to put pineapple on pizza too! live feeding just increases the odds of your snake being injured... that's as far as the debate ever goes with me... but hey, i'm a wild man too!!:lol2:


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

i dont mind the pineapple on pizza but i cant get my head around deep frying mars bars...


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

sigh... for MAGPYE....

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/37783-could-live-feed.html

before i PM'd you regarding the above thread Magpye you were 100% sure it was completely illegal... I had to send you links PROVING it wasnt completely illegal... im sure i sent you TWO... after you telling everyone it was completely illegal after 1911... now u have checked i see you have changed your tune.. 

as I pointed out in Pms about this thread above it is a GREY area...

I cant be bothered getting into it again... but I think you should double check what ure on about before u BLAST everyone with info...


TOPS....

HEY TOPS you slagging off our second national dish... deep- fried -whisky- coated- mars- bar- irn -bru sprinkled PIZZA.... GO THE SCOTS hehe ( * does a little highland fling in tartan mini skirt with swords*)


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

sparkle said:


> HEY TOPS you slagging off our second national dish... deep- fried -whisky- coated- mars- bar- irn -bru sprinkled PIZZA.... GO THE SCOTS hehe ( * does a little highland fling in tartan mini skirt with swords*)


I like Irn bru as it happens. and haggis. though not tried it together


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Tops said:


> I like Irn bru as it happens. and haggis. though not tried it together


 
its 100% illegal to consume these two scottish food item together!!:whistling2:


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

frankly, i'm a biscuits and gravy sorta guy!!


----------



## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

HABU said:


> frankly, i'm a biscuits and gravy sorta guy!!


your just sick

and you probably eat grits


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i used to eat grits until i went to parris island. grits every morning, grits, grits, grits!! i have flashbacks everytime i see grits!!:lol2:


----------



## Magpye (Jan 26, 2007)

sparkle said:


> sigh... for MAGPYE....
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/37783-could-live-feed.html
> 
> ...




It can still be interpreted as 100% illegal Tops if you took the effort to read and understand that which I referenced. It has NOT been proven it is not "completely legal" as you put it. Something is either legal or is not legal, and until it finally goes to court it remains open to interpretation. So whilst people say it is legal in certain circumstances this is not the case. It can be interpreted as being legal, however until a judge sets a precedent in case law then it remains open to debate.

I have not changed my tune, I simply presented the facts. According to the 1911 Act it can be interpreted as illegal, and according to the 2006 Act it can be interpreted as illegal. Likewise, it can be argued in EXTREME cases that it may not be illegal. HOWEVER, until a judge sets a precedent it remains ambiguous.

And so whilst you may disagree with what I have written, which coincidentally is referenced Parliamentary Hansards and Statutes (not my own "version of events"), then I would suggest people who are new to the hobby are not going away with the impression that they can feed live mice to their snakes if they appear to have not eaten for a month or so. 

You can PM what you like, but if you cannot substantiate it then it is worthless. Both sides of the debate have been presented on this thread, supported with Hansards from both sides of the argument, accompanied with the legislation. 

Whatever feelings or opinions you may have about the matter are irrelevant.


----------



## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

feeding live or dead, what's it matter? there's much more cruelty in this world than worrying about some mice. people should start with the big stuff and then work their way down. we'd live in a nicer place by the time we got to mice....just my opinion so please no one's head explodes by reading this. i'm entitled to my opinion..


----------

