# Can vastly different species of frogs be kept together??



## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Hi all!

I'm in the process of keeping dart frogs (among other beasties..) at the mo, but had contact from a keeper in the states (ive no idea how much he knows on the subject) he had a fairly decent sized viv, however what he was keeping in the same viv was 4 dart frogs (all different species), also one red eye tree frog, one blue tree frog, two mossy frogs and one electric blue day gecko!

they'd all been kept together for over a month with no deaths or bullying etc....

was wondering if anyone else has experience of keeping different species together and what you all think on the subject! is it possible, terrible, recommended... etc...

im bored


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

sits back and watches the fireworks begin...8)


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## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

Im not an expert, but I do alot of reading lol. This kind of subject has come up frequently on this forum and throughout many pages on the web. The general consensus is that its a bad idea. To efficiently replicate the environmental needs of each different species, and allow them room to move and live a normal life, would require a huge vivarium and a lot of setting up and maintaining.

Also even if the animals dont acticely attack each other, they can stress each other out. Things such as mixing binural and nocturnal animals together would mean they disturb each other during rest time. Even if they dont attack each other, they may fear each other and constantly be watching out for an attack. Also different hunting styles for food would mean you had to watch to make sure each one had enough to eat. Some animals play the slow 'waiting game' and wait for the bugs to get close, while others just charge forward and pin down as many as possible. One type obviously upsets the other.

Erm theres umpteen more reasons floating about, have a google or a search on here, its been heavily covered. That said mind there is always some people who believe you can do it safely, if your really serious about it, I would hunt them out, but dont take 'Ive had them like this for a few months' as a sign of success, try find people who have had the set up done for years and see what they did.


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## captaincarot (Mar 20, 2008)

my thought are it would be an absolute mirracle if they don't suffer.

i'm all for mixed specie vivaria but when the species are that diverse some of them must suffer.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> sits back and watches the fireworks begin...8)


 
LOL!! have a little faith in the occasional calm and collected answer


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## captaincarot (Mar 20, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> LOL!! have a little faith in the occasional calm and collected answer


nope some self important sanctimonious git will start preaching that it's impossible to keep more than one frog in a container soon never mind more than one species.


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

damn.... i was getting all excited and everything...


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## Heim (Aug 3, 2008)

lol, personally I would to see someone ask for something completely outrageous in the lizard forum and await the response. I know these guys have seen/heard of some pretty terrible things when it comes to exotic pets, and I got alot of respect for them, but sometimes they do flip out at the smallest of things.

Would like to see something like:

"Hey Im just setting up a cool mixed theme vivarium. I wanted to go one half desert style and other half rainforest, seperated by a 'pond'. So on one side of the viv I want beardies and leo's and on the other I wanted cresties and poison dart frogs. I also want various insects running around each, and some fish in the pond, perhaps piranhas, maybe with a crab or seven. Oh I also want a parrot in the trees... maybe the cat as well. Viv is 3x1x1, any thoughts?"


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

chondro13 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I'm in the process of keeping dart frogs (among other beasties..) at the mo, but had contact from a keeper in the states (ive no idea how much he knows on the subject) he had a fairly decent sized viv, however what he was keeping in the same viv was 4 dart frogs (all different species), also one red eye tree frog, one blue tree frog, two mossy frogs and one electric blue day gecko!
> 
> ...


As long as you get the mix right in relation to the size of the viv and animals are healthy to start with, then go for it. The only note of caution I would say with PAFs is that if they are too closely related, then cross-breeding may occur, which you may not want.

Mixing species is a matter of experience and opinion, not of fact or consensus.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

before people start bitching and fighting too much here is a nice concise 3rd party source on mix phibs Amphibiancare.com >> Mixing and Keeping Different Species of Reptiles and Amphibians Together

mixing certain species of darts and retf's is never a good idea in my book there so fragile why risk it. also there is a wide verity of habitat need there i dont think they would be very happy frog. just because there alive doesnt mean there not stressed or have some kind of low level illness and a month isnt very long for the real problems to develop if this set-up works for over a year or 2 i would be impressed but my personal thoughts would be something (if not more) would be dead withing 12 months 



Heim said:


> Would like to see something like:
> 
> "Hey Im just setting up a cool mixed theme vivarium. I wanted to go one half desert style and other half rainforest, seperated by a 'pond'. So on one side of the viv I want beardies and leo's and on the other I wanted cresties and poison dart frogs. I also want various insects running around each, and some fish in the pond, perhaps piranhas, maybe with a crab or seven. Oh I also want a parrot in the trees... maybe the cat as well. Viv is 3x1x1, any thoughts?"


made me smile lol


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## ip3kid (May 21, 2008)

nope

hes a stupid example

YouTube - Herps - More Terrarium Updates

his running frog died last week from stress


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## blackbat67 (Jul 1, 2008)

YouTube - Introduction to my New Account - My Herps

you seen this vid from the same person? from what i gather those different amphibians actually live together!!

(sorry if it was mentioned in ip3kid's link-vdeo - my pc decided it wont play sound today :S)


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## blackbat67 (Jul 1, 2008)

omg i've benn looking at more of that person's videos and she doesn't have a proper lid for the tank - she just has towels over it :S


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## ip3kid (May 21, 2008)

ye lol :S


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## ip3kid (May 21, 2008)

blackbat67 said:


> omg i've benn looking at more of that person's videos and she doesn't have a proper lid for the tank - she just has towels over it :S


she has a proper lid, she just has the towels to keep humidity in


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## blackbat67 (Jul 1, 2008)

ah reet lol


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

damn u people with your youtube (its blocked at work i cant even get on it and im part of the IT department)


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## captaincarot (Mar 20, 2008)

spend_day said:


> damn u people with your youtube (its blocked at work i cant even get on it and im part of the IT department)


can't be a very good one then if you can't get round your own security.


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## Axel01 (Jun 14, 2008)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> sits back and watches the fireworks begin...8)


My thoughts when I read this at lunch time.


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## Axel01 (Jun 14, 2008)

spend_day said:


> damn u people with your youtube (its blocked at work i cant even get on it and im part of the IT department)


No probs here


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

well i must say RFUK im certainly dissapointed in your orderly response to this thread, at the very least i expected some crying in the corner...

not impressed at all... no no...

as far as the actual topic is concerned, i keep 2 bufo regularis(square marks) and 3 bufo dibilis (egyptian green toads) in a 36"x18"x18" vivarium with a woodland style set up, i keep the vivarium its self relatively dry, with a waterbowl in their just in case. once a month i give it a misting, and they seem to be getting on ok so far (about 6 months now) how ever theres a first time for everything. all 5 toads in general are gaining weight so it seems like there maybe light at the end of the tunnel for a regularis/debilis set up. the reason i chose this was because there both african species (alright africas huge but they both have similar care in captivity) as for them both occupying the same 'niche' in the ecosystems within which they live, i simply feed them all there fare share.

i also know some who keeps marinus and alvarius together and there doesnt seem to be any quarel between them either, i think the key to communial set ups it to at least select species of the same genus and within a close geographical reigon. obviously with my set up there might be a few thousand miles between the two species, and 30 inches cant compare to that, but with the right maintainance and a reasonable approach (i.e square mark toads, green tree frogs and fire salamanders will never work.) i think that to a certain extent communial species can be done.

how ever, dont any of you noobies start taking the post as an exscuse to go willy nilly putting stuff together, as mentioned earlier you need to study both species before you go ahead with something like that..

EDIT* awaits to ripped to shreds


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> well i must say RFUK im certainly dissapointed in your orderly response to this thread, at the very least i expected some crying in the corner...
> 
> not impressed at all... no no...
> 
> ...


What he said, especially the last paragraph


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> well i must say RFUK im certainly dissapointed in your orderly response to this thread, at the very least i expected some crying in the corner...
> 
> not impressed at all... no no...
> 
> ...


*rips to shreds* just kidding 

nah well said man im currently researching into mixing i still think im too in experienced but if i get my selected species now i can study the species and the indervidual animals for the next 6-8months and then if i feel it can be done (both with the animals in question and with my own ability as a carer of these animals) then i might give it ago. im not 100% i "believe" (need i better word) in mixing but damn it if i want to try it im gonna do it right


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

weres the entertainment? i even throw my self to the dogs and nothing happens


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## redeyedanny (Feb 16, 2007)

grrrrrrrrr woof woof!:lol2:


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> weres the entertainment? i even throw my self to the dogs and nothing happens


i just think the phibs section is less militant than the lizard section. we might tut and shake our head but the lizard guys will bomb your car and kidnap your wife


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## redeyedanny (Feb 16, 2007)

we'r all to happy from licking our pets to get wound up! :lol2:
everything here in the frog section is mellooooow


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

very nice posts:lol2:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

jesuslovestheladies said:


> weres the entertainment? i even throw my self to the dogs and nothing happens


its because your response was reasonable silly!!

as for me im considering keeping a day geko with my darts - purely because the heat source is a heat lamp and i can put a 'stick' for want of a better word under this for a basking spot while still keeping the abient air temp suitable for the frogs - and while they all need the same humidity and have the same eating habits i dont see any particular reason why frogs and similar cant be kept together obviously after some careful thought has been put into the setup....

right on a completely different subject... anyone got any thoughts as to how i can put my exo viv back together??? i literally just took the delivery for my pretty new viv, which (this time..) is not broken! however it arrived with the doors NOT on the viv... whereas the last one arrived in tact... im scared to put the doors back on because there seems to be a lot of bending and stress etc involved to the plastic... anyone had a prob like this or recommend any special tricks? ta very much !


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## captaincarot (Mar 20, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> its because your response was reasonable silly!!
> 
> as for me im considering keeping a day geko with my darts - purely because the heat source is a heat lamp and i can put a 'stick' for want of a better word under this for a basking spot while still keeping the abient air temp suitable for the frogs - and while they all need the same humidity and have the same eating habits i dont see any particular reason why frogs and similar cant be kept together obviously after some careful thought has been put into the setup....
> 
> right on a completely different subject... anyone got any thoughts as to how i can put my exo viv back together??? i literally just took the delivery for my pretty new viv, which (this time..) is not broken! however it arrived with the doors NOT on the viv... whereas the last one arrived in tact... im scared to put the doors back on because there seems to be a lot of bending and stress etc involved to the plastic... anyone had a prob like this or recommend any special tricks? ta very much !


examine the hinges very carefully and the bits on the doors,
you will notice length differences. in the slots and the pins.
marry them up becareful and slide it in. 
it is posssible i've had the same problem myself when one fell out while i was putting a backing on with sealant


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## jesuslovestheladies (Apr 30, 2008)

not contradicting but i thought day geckos are large (compared to dart frogs) or are day geckos placid creatures when compared to say... anoles and fan foot geckos?


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## axorozzas (Aug 16, 2008)

depends which day geckos you're talking about.

I have heard of people keeping small neon day geckos with dart frogs as they have the same requirements (it even says it in my care book) but tbh I wouldn't want to make a mixed viv as complex as that unless it was HUUUGE with loads and loads of plants and stuff like a real rainforest.

I do hate the "never ever" attitude of mixing, even though I can understand the controversy it brings just stick an "aproach with caution" and "not recommended" sign to it. It's all about making informed decisions (very informed) if it's tried and tested, you have seperate vivs on standby and you keep a constant eye on them, then it's up to you.


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## Scuwiffpixi (Nov 23, 2008)

spend_day said:


> i just think the phibs section is less militant than the lizard section. we might tut and shake our head but the lizard guys will bomb your car and kidnap your wife


:lol2: I found that too and I've _got_ a lizard, I was too scared to post at first incase I had my head torn off and my house bricked for it!:whistling2:


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm a great supporter of mixed vivs and have kept some frogs together, I don't think darts in a mixed viv would work. I tried and it did'nt work and had to remove darts.
It was a long time ago and I can't remember all the details. It was an 8x8x3 sized viv, so there was plenty of room.
cheers arthur


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Woah i did post this a while back...

after doing a LOT more research i decided not to put day geckos in with the darts - ive seen it done but i would not do it unless i had a MASSIVE viv and could provide a hot spot for the geckos, while having enough cool wet areas for the darts.

However in regards to mixing species, it CAN be done but ive been VERY selective about the species i have done so.

Here are my rules:
ONLY mix poison dart frogs. No other species.
ONLY mix darts that will not bully each other.
ONLY mix darts that will not outcompete one another for food.
ONLY mix darts that have identical care requirements (e.g. temperature)
NEVER mix darts that stress easily.
NEVER mix darts that will hybridize.

So far, i have two species together. They have done brilliantly with no problems for over 3 months now. I have talked to many a breeder and it seems i can add another two species - terribilis and splashbacks, and not have problems.

I would advise anyone wishing to mix species to think VERY long and hard about every posibility involved - if you are confident, ask experts in that field to make sure!


then - go ahead :2thumb:


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I thought I might do a list of the many creatures I've kept together in one viv.
Fruit beetles,giant millies,hermit land crabs,green anoles,peacock day geckos,golddust day geckos,long tailed grass lizard,small skinks,grays tree frog, green tree frog,red eyed tree frog,pair of orange cheeked waxbills,rough green snakes,guppies and apple snails. The finches actually bred.
cheers arthur


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> I thought I might do a list of the many creatures I've kept together in one viv.
> Fruit beetles,giant millies,hermit land crabs,green anoles,peacock day geckos,golddust day geckos,long tailed grass lizard,small skinks,grays tree frog, green tree frog,red eyed tree frog,pair of orange cheeked waxbills,rough green snakes,guppies and apple snails. The finches actually bred.
> cheers arthur


so what was in with what, also can i ask what viv sizes did u use and any piccys (carefully mixed viv's tend to look good i dunno why) how long did u keep each set-up


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi, they were all in same viv, 8ft x 8ft x3ft. Lots of vegetation, mainly from the ficus family. created several micro climates for the slightly different needs of each creature,viv lasted for about 5 years then I turned my conservatory into the next viv.
The beetle grubs turned over the substrate and the small ones were good food for many of the creatures, finches loved them.Hermit crabs are scavengers and got rid of some waste as did the millies, sort of self cleaning. Crickets bred in there altho I would put a couple of tubs of dusted crickets in once a month.
It was a very interesting set up and gave me hours and hours of pleasure.
cheers arthur


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## mad4frogs (Aug 8, 2006)

> as for me im considering keeping a day geko with my darts - purely because the heat source is a heat lamp and i can put a 'stick' for want of a better word under this for a basking spot while still keeping the abient air temp suitable for the frogs - and while they all need the same humidity and have the same eating habits i dont see any particular reason why frogs and similar cant be kept together obviously after some careful thought has been put into the setup....


hiya, If it helps i keep my standingi day gecko in with my whites tree frogs. They do have a pretty big viv and feed gecko in morn and frogs at night so i know they both get food, and always have a supply of mealworms in a pot that both can eat. Have had no probs with these, however i wouldnt put in with darts purly cause of the toxins. , know they dont have many but still have few in their skin and will not be good for gecko if drinking out the same water bowl.

what darts you keeping together? I once kept galacs and azzies together but the azzies just bullied the hell out of galacs way too much, i was confident it would wrk but sadly no...so went back to the drawing board


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

mad4frogs said:


> hiya, If it helps i keep my standingi day gecko in with my whites tree frogs. They do have a pretty big viv and feed gecko in morn and frogs at night so i know they both get food, and always have a supply of mealworms in a pot that both can eat. Have had no probs with these, however i wouldnt put in with darts purly cause of the toxins. , know they dont have many but still have few in their skin and will not be good for gecko if drinking out the same water bowl.
> 
> what darts you keeping together? I once kept galacs and azzies together but the azzies just bullied the hell out of galacs way too much, i was confident it would wrk but sadly no...so went back to the drawing board



aah fair enough - the point of the thread was to see if MASSIVELY different species can be kept togther, it does seem that it is possible with some thought..

I keep Dendrobates azureus and Hyloxalus azureiventris at the moment, they are getting on well. Splashbacks and/or terribilis should theoretically be fine too - i will try this but i have seperate setups ready incase someone doesnt get along


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Chondro, you're right, it takes some thought and a bit of common sense. People some times don't think things through enough, Take stress, in the wild animals are constantly disturbed by other animals passing by and they get to know what constitutes danger and what doesn't.
I would say that it is completely unnatural to keep a single species viv and this is where all those who are against mixed species vivs fall down.
I started my first mixed viv some 20 years ago and I didn't just throw all the creatures in my list together and hope for the best, it took years and a large learning curve.
I wanted to create an environment for my animals that was as naturalistic as possible. I think that leads to a mixed species viv.
cheers arthur


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> Chondro, you're right, it takes some thought and a bit of common sense. People some times don't think things through enough, Take stress, in the wild animals are constantly disturbed by other animals passing by and they get to know what constitutes danger and what doesn't.
> I would say that it is completely unnatural to keep a single species viv and this is where all those who are against mixed species vivs fall down.
> I started my first mixed viv some 20 years ago and I didn't just throw all the creatures in my list together and hope for the best, it took years and a large learning curve.
> I wanted to create an environment for my animals that was as naturalistic as possible. I think that leads to a mixed species viv.
> cheers arthur



:notworthy: a very interesting point, i agree completely


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## mad4frogs (Aug 8, 2006)

> Splashbacks and/or terribilis should theoretically be fine too - i will try this but i have seperate setups ready incase someone doesnt get along


'splashbacks' are galacs and i had them in with azzies which are a far bolder frog. Terribilis are the same as azzies and are prob worse at bulling as they are like little garbage bins for food so the splashbacks are unlikely to get a look in. Imo I wouldnt chance that pairing.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Yeah, bullying is something you should be aware of as this can lead to animals dying.
Sometimes you can get round this by having an obstacle between the two groups so that the two groups dont come in day to day contact.
Another thing that comes to mind is the individuality of reptiles, you keep two species together and it's fine but you may find that two different individuals of those species don't get on. Some people dismiss the idea that the smaller reptiles such as little frogs and lizards are individuals, within limits of course.
I used to have a little skink that hated black crickets and would bite them in half but never eat them.
cheers arthur


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

mad4frogs said:


> 'splashbacks' are galacs and i had them in with azzies which are a far bolder frog. Terribilis are the same as azzies and are prob worse at bulling as they are like little garbage bins for food so the splashbacks are unlikely to get a look in. Imo I wouldnt chance that pairing.



hmm all info ive recieved is that galacs and terribilis are similar to tincs (boldness wise) so should be fine!

thanks for your experience though its gratefully recieved, so you would recommend splashbacks rather than terribilis then? i dont mind keeping just a few in that tank - i believe a few well kept species together would be better than lots that dont get on! lol! 

cheers : victory:


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## coprex (Dec 31, 2008)

I won't keep frogs of too much different size together...you know, the smaller could be a snack for the larger one


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## krinx (Jan 20, 2009)

*toxin?*

i was always told that you have to be careful as they have different skin toxins. i have whites and usa greens together at the mo, out of necessity, but they are both really hardy breeds.


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