# HELP unheated frozen pond and 1 dead koi already!



## Purplebeardielover (Mar 23, 2009)

Please can anybody help,we need suggestions of what to do, the top isnt entirely frozen but hubby has just been out to break the ice again and found one of our koi dead,i assume not long as he was still floppy.What can we do to try and stop any more dying? Never had this problem before being down south we dont normally get snow.
Any ideas??


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

yeah as on other thread you just want to leave it all alone weve had our koi for 25-30 year the only time theyve died is when the heron has took the odd 1 or 2. our pond freezes over hard every year for quite a few weeks somtimes you dont want to do anything that brings them out of there sort of hibernation.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

try and keep the water surface moving, raise the pond pump and run the filter, as long as the surface is moving it wont freeze over


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## mikef (Sep 3, 2009)

koi dont hibernate, this is fact, not fiction. They dont like cold temps, and can very quickly start to die, we have not had prelonged cold temps like we have at the moment for quite a few years, and its affecting lots of koi ponds at the moment, the easy solution is to heat the pond, but the practicallities are not so simple, its quite expense, but quite a bit cheaper than replacing dead koi


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## Paul B (Apr 16, 2008)

Raise the pump from the bottom of the pond to allow the warmer water to remain there.

DO NOT BTREAK THE ICE AS THE SHOCK CAN KILL THE FISH.

heating is an option.

Keep suface water moving as much as possible.
P


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## defi (Sep 17, 2009)

Bit late now but the deeper the pond the better. As previously mentioned raise the pump off the bottom and if possible slow the flow down, the heat goes to the bottom so you dont want to go stirring it up.
My fish are currently lined up like soldiers right on the bottom


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## buddah (Dec 23, 2009)

our pond regularly freezes over for long periods and have had no problems with dead koi if the ponds deep enough the ice on top serves to insulate the water below, we have a bridge over the pond were ice never forms underneath it allowing co2 to escape.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

throw a football on it, should keep the water moving and stop it freezing completely.



i think


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## Purplebeardielover (Mar 23, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all your help, hubby raised the pump in November nd it about 18"-24" off the bottom, the pond is around 4' deep and holds 3500 gallons,the pond isnt totally frozen,bout half,the other half is constantly moving due to the pump and waterfall. Hubby has put some hardboard? over some of the pond to try and protect it from the severe drop in temps, may definately consider heating the pond in the future,the koi arent worth loads but its more the fact that we have had for soo long it is gutting to lose them,they are hubbys pride and joy,thanks again Tess


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Meko said:


> throw a football on it, should keep the water moving and stop it freezing completely.
> 
> 
> 
> i think


That's what we usually do, but since this winter is colder than usual the football got frozen in with it:lol2:
Boiling water works well.


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

The waterfall will not help as the air will chill the water even more. Can you divert the returning water directly to the pond? Cover the pond with polycarbonate sheets or heavy duty bubble wrap, fixed to a wooden frame.


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## Purplebeardielover (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi, Its not a waterfall exactly,that was just the easiest way i thought of to explain,it is the outlet pipe from the filters which is 4" diameter, hubby has lowered it so it is emptying straight back into the pond below water level,but obviously because of the size the quantity of water keeps it moving stopping that area from freezing. Hope that makes sense.


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Bypass the filter completely, the bacteria will likely be dead in these temps anyway.
as has been said already, the pond water forms a thermal barrier and the fish will be in the warmer part at the bottom, the water flowing in even at the top will stir the warm area in with the colder top area, i switched my koi pond off completely in the winter, and just put a bubble wrap cover over the top, never lost a fish this way.
as long as you keep and area of ice free for gas exchange all should be fine
i restarted the filtration as the water warmed and the fish got more active.

FYI the pond was 20 by 9 by 5 ft deep, and i kept 10 koi, the biggest around 3 ft and a grass carp towards 4 ft long.


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

I disagree, you shouldn't turn off filtration systems. The bacteria never completley dies. Also the koi are always producing ammonia, through the gills even though the're not being fed. If you turn off your filter where will your ammonia go?


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## Purplebeardielover (Mar 23, 2009)

So much conflicting advice, still dont really know what to do for the best lol
Pump is raised pond is now 3/4 covered by board to protect from the cold
Just undecided on turning the pump/filters off or not


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

johne.ev said:


> I disagree, you shouldn't turn off filtration systems. The bacteria never completley dies. Also the koi are always producing ammonia, through the gills even though the're not being fed. If you turn off your filter where will your ammonia go?



because of the very low temps they produce very little ammonia, this will dissipate naturally into the air, so all you need is a small hole in the ice which will act as a vent, allowing gas exchange.



It's a big divide with ponds. Some people think that keeping pumps running will be better because it allows the filter to be used and stops excessive freezing. But as said it will lower the overall temp of the pond including the 'stable area' which should be the warmest area of the pond in the winter where the fish will go hide out. This area starts about 1 metre and down in depth.

The other option is to switch everything off and just make sure there is a venting hole. This allows the lower areas of the pond to keep their stable temp which helps the fish stay warm over winter.

Koi are a sub tropical fish, you need a warmer area in the pond for them to survive the winter. Your pond is plenty deep enough to keep a warmer bit at the bottom. The other way is to heat the pond but this can be very expensive.

I've always switched everything off over winter. Never been a problem, not lost any fish over winter either. But some people don't agree with it. It's up to you at the end of the day. Stick with what works for you. There's no point trying to be perfect. If it's always worked for you and doesn't cause any problems for the fish then go for it. Every fishkeeper has a different opinion about something so don't listen to everyone all the time


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

johne.ev said:


> I disagree, you shouldn't turn off filtration systems. The bacteria never completley dies. Also the koi are always producing ammonia, through the gills even though the're not being fed. If you turn off your filter where will your ammonia go?


 wow, after building pond filtration systems for several years i find i have been doing it all wrong


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

reptile_man_08 said:


> That's what we usually do, but since this winter is colder than usual the football got frozen in with it:lol2:
> Boiling water works well.


you need a duck then, tie some weights to its legs. Not too heavy that it sinks but heavy enough so it can't fly off or get out of the water so it constantly has to toddle around the pond.


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## mikef (Sep 3, 2009)

Got to say, you never turn your filter off, the filter only gets better and better as each year passes, yes the filter bacteria reduce in cold temps, but its still there and as the warmer weather comes it fires back into life quicker than a filter that has been switched off.

Thermal layering in ponds only takes place in deep ponds, and i mean deep ponds, the average koi or gold fish pond might see a difference of less than 1c even in 4 foot of water, stop the water splashing into the pond as this can chill it, but never turn it off.

Covering ponds totally or letting them freeze over completly can be dangerous, as already stated co2 can build up very quickly in the pond, and can not only suffocate the fish, but also reduce ph to leathal levels.

I know some people turn everything off each year, but its not the correct way to do it, the filter is the life blood of any pond.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

mikef said:


> Got to say, you never turn your filter off, the filter only gets better and better as each year passes, yes the filter bacteria reduce in cold temps, but its still there and as the warmer weather comes it fires back into life quicker than a filter that has been switched off.
> 
> Thermal layering in ponds only takes place in deep ponds, and i mean deep ponds, the average koi or gold fish pond might see a difference of less than 1c even in 4 foot of water, stop the water splashing into the pond as this can chill it, but never turn it off.
> 
> ...



yes the filter is the most important thing on a pond. But turning off everything over winter is something that many successful koi keepers do every year with no issue whatsoever. Can hardly be incorrect if it works for thousands of fishkeepers past and present can it?

Im not saying that leaving the filter running is wrong, just offering another option. Like I said in my original post, there is a massive range of opinion in fishkeeping. Just because someone does something differently to you doesn't make them wrong. That's a pretty closed mind you've got if you think you are right and someone is wrong because they don't do it the same as you.


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## Paul B (Apr 16, 2008)

Other than raising the pump off the bottom I have never changed anything over the seasons other than turning off the Uv in the winter.
I am tempted to turn it on again now as it will no doubt warm the water a bit. 

P


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## Ben W (Nov 18, 2008)

Just to point out that ammonia is far more toxic at high water temps than the far more lower winter temps, the other way to achieve your filtration over the winter is have a small amount of water going through it if you wish, but as has been pointed out we all do things differently with much the same result, but i think we can all agree that a small area needs to be kept ice free, and that smashing the ice is a very bad idea.


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## ranickoi (Jan 13, 2010)

Purplebeardielover said:


> Please can anybody help,we need suggestions of what to do, the top isnt entirely frozen but hubby has just been out to break the ice again and found one of our koi dead,i assume not long as he was still floppy.What can we do to try and stop any more dying? Never had this problem before being down south we dont normally get snow.
> Any ideas??


 Unfortunately we have lost 5 huge Koi over the last few days. We've got a pond heater and what sounds like an identical size pond to yours. They are all unmarked and in perfect condition and its heartbreaking. I've had them since I was a kid and they are 30 years old now. Not entirely sure if we could have done something else but we've never lost any before now.
Could anyone comment as to whether it worth adding a bucket of hot water just to bring the temp up a degree or two?


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## Purplebeardielover (Mar 23, 2009)

So sorry to hear to you have lost 5, we have thankfully only lost the one, we had already raised the pump and have also since asking on here turned off the uv and pump/filters,we have put a plastic ball in to keep an unfrozen patch and just hoping the rest will be ok,the ice is really thick now so you cant see in soo well,we have also covered 3/4 of the pond with board to try and protect a little more.
Would adding warm water not mesws with the thermal layers or possibly make the fish slighter more active? I dont know i am just hoping the rest survive,good luck with yours i hope you dont lose anymore


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Thing to keep in mind here is fish don't always float to the top when they die...Many could be dead on the bottom.


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## defi (Sep 17, 2009)

ranickoi said:


> Unfortunately we have lost 5 huge Koi over the last few days. We've got a pond heater and what sounds like an identical size pond to yours. They are all unmarked and in perfect condition and its heartbreaking. I've had them since I was a kid and they are 30 years old now. Not entirely sure if we could have done something else but we've never lost any before now.
> Could anyone comment as to whether it worth adding a bucket of hot water just to bring the temp up a degree or two?


Very sorry to hear of the loss of your fish, I lost a large female a couple of years ago it died after spawning I was gutted
I dont think that adding a few gallons of hot water to 1000+ gallons will help I would image that all that would happen is to mix up the water which may end up cooling the water at the bottom of the pond.
Looks like its starting to get a liitle warmer outside so hopefully the fish will start warm up a little


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## Frase (Jul 13, 2009)

reptile_man_08 said:


> Thing to keep in mind here is fish don't always float to the top when they die...Many could be dead on the bottom.


 
NExt time i am in need of sympathy, i am coming to THIS GUY! :2thumb:

But he is right, you could have more disasterous results then you thought.

Unfortunate, lets hope it isnt the case eh


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## shortyshazz (Mar 21, 2009)

Im no pond expert but i always remember my mum use 2 put a small ball in the water when expecting snow and a frezze over.


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## kai7676 (Aug 3, 2009)

:2thumb:A way to help the Koi from dying when a pond freezes over is by putting a football in before it freezes and the take it out in the morning. Therefore there will be a hole in the pond which the Koi can take in air from the surface of the water. Or you could pour hot water on the surface of the ice and leave it for a while but it will refreeze so it may be slightly pointless. DO NOT PUT BOILING WATER ON THE POND OR TRY AND SMASH IT WITH A HAMMER AS YOUR FISH MAY DIE OF SHOCK. Hope I help


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## Gutted2BLeaving (Jul 6, 2009)

Wish I had seen this post sooner, but if I am absent I can not be held responsible :lol2:

Firstly as was stated Koi will shut down in to a semi torpid state and may as a result lay on their side. If hubby pulled the fish from the bottom of the pond laying on its side then it may have actually still have been alive. They simply give the impression of being dead as their metabolism has slowed right down. I nearly made the same mistake when living at home with my parents many years ago, so be aware. The only thing that saved the Tashio Sanshoku from being burried was I noticed the gill move after layingh in the hole we'd dug. :blush:


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## taf (Jan 11, 2010)

Meko said:


> throw a football on it, should keep the water moving and stop it freezing completely.
> 
> 
> 
> i think


 the football trick dont workjust leves a lil hole were the ball ends up siting :lol2:


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