# illegal couriers



## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Im just curious about something , if you KNEW the reptile you were buying was coming via an illegal courier be it royal mail or parcel force etc would you still buy it and save money rather than spend a bit extra and send the legal/proper way?


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## Dork Knight (Mar 10, 2008)

Definitely not, the risk against the life of the reptile/animal or whatnot is too great IMO.

You always hear of bad things that happen, even with licensed companies as you have rouge traders - But the risk is increased that much more with companies which are not licensed IMO.


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Sadly there are people im aware of on this forum that think its ok to do so


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Take it you saw what was said in the newt posts Rachy? I can not believe they said it was ok to send via royal mail even though it is illegal.


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

I was more aware of fastway couriers to be honest


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

i would only use reptile taxi or Gremlin rides : victory:


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

rachy said:


> I was more aware of fastway couriers to be honest


Fastways are able to courier livestock its the third partys which are unable to take it on.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

what is an illegal corrier?

they actually send people to prison for bringing something to another person?.. kinda stiffles free enterprise if you ask me.
:whistling2:


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Fastways are NOT allowed to courier reptiles , i have spoken to them and pointed them to defras website , the guy i spoke to was most helpful and reassured me he would no longer courier reptiles , all customers that have prepaid will be allowed to use fastway until their 'stamps' runs out then they will only be able to use the sameday service!


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

rachy said:


> Fastways are NOT allowed to courier reptiles , i have spoken to them and pointed them to defras website , the guy i spoke to was most helpful and reassured me he would no longer courier reptiles , all customers that have prepaid will be allowed to use fastway until their 'stamps' runs out then they will only be able to use the sameday service!


Strange that Rachy because the company we use down here is fully aware about defra and still allows them to be couriered LEGALLY. But the funny thing is fastways are franchise so different rules for different areas. Even though we have spoken to head office regarding this they have no problems couriering reptiles if they are well packed and the correct proceedures are followed when sending. But once again you like to cause trouble dont you


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

heck! federal express brings me snakes straight to my door.. i just sign for them.. makes life way easier..


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

I spoke to fastway , several different branches and all bar 1 told me they didnt carry reptiles , fastway do not have a licence to courier reptiles.


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Well thats funny isn't it because when we signed for our account we made sure they were able to carry reptiles and they assured us they can. Not only that we have couriered several parcels using fastways and guess what every single one arrived before noon and in perfect condition and it had LIVE REPTILES written on the boxes. Before shouting your mouth off get the correct facts first and find out what your actually talking about. Unless you have phoned every single branch of fastways and asked them the same question and they have all came back and said no we don't carry reptiles ( Even though they do )


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

what else do folks need a license for?

big brother already takes pics of you all day...:whistling2:

never mind... didn't mean to grab this thread...

hot's here have to go by plane..


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

HABU said:


> what else do folks need a license for?
> 
> big brother already takes pics of you all day...:whistling2:
> 
> ...


Habu we need licences for just about everything.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

I voted registered animal courier, but in this case I mean me!!

I will always go and collect my own animals and have often spent 6hrs+ on the road to do so, as apart from knowing the animal is getting the care I would give it at home, I like to meet the sellers and love looking round other peoples collections.


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

we'll need a liscense to breath soon


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

hmmmm - who voted yes? :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Habu we need licences for just about everything.


 
i'm american.. government is offensive to me when it tries to rule me.

like this ad from kingsnake.. i pay $50 and this animal will be here tomorrow..

kingsnake.com Classifieds


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## herp boy (May 4, 2007)

does streamline ltd have a license to deliver reptiles?


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

I use my own damn car. :lol2:


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Moshpitviper said:


> I use my own damn car. :lol2:


Which is exactly what fastways do they are a franchise, the drivers pay the company to become part of their service. They use their own vans so its the same as driving them their yourself


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## amber_gekko (May 11, 2007)

i wouldn't, where's your come back if anything goes wrong, and with the conditions their being sent in you've not got much chance of whatever you've bought arriving in the best condition


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## Faith (May 17, 2007)

As said before we use them and a fair few other reptile keepers use them as well. 
We have never had a problem using them every. 
We have one driver that collects and keeps them in the front of the van. 
They then go to the depo and are transfered to another van (they still go in the front of the van)
We also use 60 hour heat packs so the reptiles are warm on their travels


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

the guy that deals with sussex area rang me, he was very helpful and appriciated the info i gave him and he wasnt aware he was breaking defra regulations which state if you travel more than 40 miles with a animal for economic gain you need a licence.


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## pam b (Mar 3, 2005)

Jesus Christ this is the fourth or fifth arguementative thread i've read today.
Has everyone got the painters in this week (even the boys)!!!!!!


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## MELINDAGIBSON (Sep 8, 2007)

*Here Here*

Stop arguing :Na_Na_Na_Na:to be honest i recieved all my t's via royal mail special delivery posted late as poss day before , they came in a box ,body surrounded in cotton wool etc with holes and every single one was fine the only one i had a problem with was one i brought from a pet shop it was vicious lol and i collected that one but i didnt know it was illegal but i do now 
so thank you 
but not planning on buying any anyway but i am willing to post my man to anyone out there who wants him 1st class recorded 
melinda


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## Iliria (Jan 19, 2007)

pam b said:


> Jesus Christ this is the fourth or fifth arguementative thread i've read today.
> Has everyone got the painters in this week (even the boys)!!!!!!


 especially the boys:whistling2:


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

Nothing wrong with a healthy debate. 

But yes RFUK has been tacken over by body snatchers me thinks :bash:


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## tarantulabarn (Apr 21, 2005)

Just to point out again, fastway,tnt,dhl,amtrack,fedex etc ARE NOT COURIERS. they are parcel delivery companies, ie; i am in brighton and i send a parcel to birmingham, it will be collected from me and taken to the local hub, then loaded onto a trolley and trunked to gatwick or heathrow, unloaded and sorted into destination depot postcodes then put in another tolley and taken to the destination depot, then unloaded and put into delivery postcode trollys and sit in a depot till the delivery driver turns up.
Couriers go from a to b direct, Hand to Hand


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## htf666 (Jun 23, 2007)

That's taking equal opportunities a bit too far Pam. Harry


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

MELINDAFARREN said:


> Stop arguing :Na_Na_Na_Na:to be honest i recieved all my t's via royal mail special delivery posted late as poss day before , they came in a box ,body surrounded in cotton wool etc with holes and every single one was fine the only one i had a problem with was one i brought from a pet shop it was vicious lol and i collected that one but i didnt know it was illegal but i do now
> so thank you
> but not planning on buying any anyway but i am willing to post my man to anyone out there who wants him 1st class recorded
> melinda


Its NOT illegal to transport inverts by royal mail or any other method.

The rules being quoted apply ONLY to animals with back bones (vertibrea).

I do know for a fact that the guy from fastway (based in Lewes btw) confirmed to me that they do carry livestock, I questioned him on this, pointing out the differences with inverts, and he went away to check up.

He did come back to us and CONFIRM that they were able to carry reptiles. He has done this with at least two other people in my area that I am aware of.

However, since I chose not to go that route and carry on my personal deliveries, I didnt follow it up regarding welfare on route and transport times, ie over 8 hours. 

So I dont think of this as knowingly using an illegal method, but maybe being mislead.

However, whichever the case, the sender is not breaching the rules, its the transport company that is, as long as the sender makes it quite clear whats being transported.

I personally enjoy doing round the country runs and meeting loads of people, even if they dont make me a coffee or bacon sarnie !!! :whistling2:


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

I think/hope the guy from lewes has had a change of heart recently


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## sam89 (Apr 6, 2008)

i dont think people that use illegal couriers care much for their reps or they would spend that bit extra to make sure its done right


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## slither61 (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi all,

Would not use illegal couriers.

I always pick my snakes up in person no matter how far then you can see what you are getting.

slither61 :snake::snake::snake::snake:


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Anyone know what type of licence TNT hold, is it a long distance (over 8hour one?) and if so, who within the company holds the certificate of competance, and is responsible for the animal, and has any one who has had animals sent this way seen any evidence of the package being checked?

Also, reading the defra guide lines, ANY animal covered under the scope of the Welfare in Transport (Transport Licence) Must be accompanied by an Animal Transport Certificate, unless carried under a long distance licence in which case a journey log is required.

This ATC or JL is specific to EACH animal.

If this is not complied with, then the transport is illegal, even if carried out by a licenced transporter !


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## Moosey (Jan 7, 2008)

I'd only pick it up myself tbh


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## adamntitch (Jun 17, 2007)

i do know of a member on here that used to post reptiles useing royal mail and had a pet shop i think and posted them with royal mail and know of a member on here that caused them to stop it i think after recevining an ill animal from them that died and i did get animals from them as well that turned up cold and not heathy but that was before i knew how they where sending stock i got a shock when it turned up in a box just saying first class


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

ok so how do we find out whats legal or ilegal and if they are misled??

DEFRA i take it has the final say i think.. but im not sure on this one...

so rather than argue on here get a written document too state whether or not legally this is allowed..

if rachy is right then shes right... if shes wrong then shes wrong..

there HAS to be a way to find out instead of argue.

its not about opinion this one its either legal or illegal simple..

maybe a written letter to fastway and defra will be the easiet way to fix this,

that way if there is something in black and white to say its legal then noone has ANY worries..

do fastway require the person to be vat registered if the animals are sent for financial gain then i take it the people who have accounts with various places are also legally selling. does everyone who uses thes parcel companies sell legally.. i mean do they sell the animals and let the tax man know.. if not and there were ever issues.. what happens then..

its all a bit messy really and i think sellers and buyers alike need to find out a definitive answer to be on the right side of the law and the tax man... both for animal welfare resons when sending the parcels and legally for tax purposes

Its a hot potatoe this one.

Worth finding out if youre a seller rather than calling fastway who are obviously not consistent it seems in their info ... the people who would actually be abale to take you to court if the company and the sender were wrong..

its obvious diablo cares about his animals and packages them well so thats not a fault. what is possibly an issue is the consistency of the legalities surrounding some courriers licnces....

defra maybe is the best place to settle this one i think..

im not sure who else would know


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> Anyone know what type of licence TNT hold, is it a long distance (over 8hour one?) and if so, who within the company holds the certificate of competance, and is responsible for the animal, and has any one who has had animals sent this way seen any evidence of the package being checked?
> 
> Also, reading the defra guide lines, ANY animal covered under the scope of the Welfare in Transport (Transport Licence) Must be accompanied by an Animal Transport Certificate, unless carried under a long distance licence in which case a journey log is required.
> 
> ...


Every commercial shipment I have from TNT comes in with a copy of the license from the wholesaler, and the license is in the senders name. I can't remember the exact details whetheit's type 1 or type 2 at the moment, but ALL wholesale boxes with animals via TNT do carry a transportation license. I can find out which type it is when I get my next delivery next week, but since the implementation of the license there has been no exceptions when buying from businesses. No box I have ever received has been opened or checked in transit and are all very clearly marked reptiles with the certificate viewable in a clear wallet on the outside of the box.


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## rachy (Nov 18, 2006)

Athravan said:


> Every commercial shipment I have from TNT comes in with a copy of the license from the wholesaler, and the license is in the senders name. I can't remember the exact details whetheit's type 1 or type 2 at the moment, but ALL wholesale boxes with animals via TNT do carry a transportation license. I can find out which type it is when I get my next delivery next week, but since the implementation of the license there has been no exceptions when buying from businesses. No box I have ever received has been opened or checked in transit and are all very clearly marked reptiles with the certificate viewable in a clear wallet on the outside of the box.


So without a copy of the licence the courier/delivery company is breaking the law?


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

rachy said:


> So without a copy of the licence the courier/delivery company is breaking the law?


Well, I don't know. How does DEFRA define commercial/economic activity?

If they defined TNT payment as being commercial, then TNT would have to have their own license and display it. Which they have never done.

So I would make the assumption that simply by sending via TNT, you are NOT commercial. So, if you are a company that would need a license to deliver in a car... then you will need it for TNT. If you were sending reptiles to a friend, or selling offspring that was not classed as profit because you had bred them and were under the limits, I don't think that sending via TNT requires the transport license.

I have a transport license for my car. If I send via TNT, I attach my transport license. That is how it appears to be working at the moment. Whether this is in fact how DEFRA meant it to work when they implemented the licensing I don't know, but I have never received an animal that was licensed by TNT, only licensed by the company who owns the animal.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

My understanding, from my own limited experiance is that the licence is a 'transporters' licence, the conditions being attatched intended to improve conditions whilst in transit.

I belive it is NOT a breeders or traders transport licence.

I dont belive that one has to be a holder of said transporters licence in order to send animals, but rather that a person or company undertaking that transport in connection with an economic activity does indeed have to be covered by such a licence.

So, I belive that should I sell an animal and use 'anyone' to deliver it, they would need to have said transporters licence, not my self.

It is not a legal requirement that a copy of the licence accompany the animal, only that it is available for inspection, However, it IS required that the anmal transport certificate accompanies each animal. Dont get these two documents confused !

It is questionable, and as yet untested in court, if , in the absence of a transport licence is an offence committed by the transporter or the original sender, however, due to the legally intended scope of the regulations, I would suggest it is the transporter that would be commiting the offence.

It is however open to interpritation if the sender may have contribtuted to a breach of AWA by not ensuring, in writing, that the transporter was licenced.

In any event, i very much doubt that cps nor defra would bring such action in the case of a reptile, as we all know the transport laws only include reptiles etc as it was drafted rather openly and is directed towards farm (hoofed) animals.


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