# Green Mamba



## Menza (Sep 1, 2008)

Just an enquiry, does anyone know where i could get hold of a green mamba. very preferably venemoid. Thanks.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I know where you could get a fully loaded green, but you would have to show correct paperwork, and why would you want a venomoid you have previous experience I gather?


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## ukboaconstrictors (Aug 9, 2008)

he owns a cali king thats experience 


luke


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeah thats why I asked cos I looked at the profile.


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

someone correct if im wrong, but as far as i am aware, you still need a DWA to own a venomoid.
so either way you would need to get a DWA


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeah you do


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

Im sitting in Equitorial Guinea right now...........we have loads of them here but they would need to be collected.......:2thumb:


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## Jade01 (Feb 21, 2007)

madaboutreptiles said:


> Im sitting in Equitorial Guinea right now...........we have loads of them here but they would need to be collected.......:2thumb:


thats awesome, i might just come and visit you :whistling2:


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## Menza (Sep 1, 2008)

hahaha very funny. was just an enquiry. i justy wanted to know that should i really want one in the future after few years of snake keepin and a license if i could get one.


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## Magik (Jul 22, 2008)

A hot should be left as a hot IMO


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Menza said:


> hahaha very funny. was just an enquiry. i justy wanted to know that should i really want one in the future after few years of snake keepin and a license if i could get one.


 
yeah you could get one, but they arnt advised as first hots, they are very fast elapids and not to be messed with


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## Menza (Sep 1, 2008)

what would you recommend as a first hot snake then??? cheers.


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## Declan123 (Dec 29, 2007)

Menza said:


> what would you recommend as a first hot snake then??? cheers.



V ammo?

Copperhead?


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## Tom_b (Sep 23, 2008)

Menza said:


> what would you recommend as a first hot snake then??? cheers.


 
Personally there was no such thing as a beginner hot; at the end of the day the most dangerous hot is the one that’s just bitten you. 

The best advice for anyone to get into hots is to get yourself a good mentor, learn from the best and only use the best! You will never eliminate the risks of keeping dangerous animals however reducing them is obviously top priority as far as anyone is concerned. 

“Prevention is better than cure”

Thanks

Tom


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## carpy (Nov 13, 2007)

Tom_b said:


> Personally there was no such thing as a beginner hot; at the end of the day the most dangerous hot is the one that’s just bitten you.
> 
> The best advice for anyone to get into hots is to get yourself a good mentor, learn from the best and only use the best! You will never eliminate the risks of keeping dangerous animals however reducing them is obviously top priority as far as anyone is concerned.
> 
> ...


a quote i use again and again. yes there aresome hots that are easier than others, but they all need exactly the same care and protocols, because they are all dangerous.when you get the the stage where you consider dwa it should be because you are past the point of making mistakes. make a mistake in the vicinity of a green mamba, or any other hot, and it may be your last


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## Tom_b (Sep 23, 2008)

carpy said:


> a quote i use again and again. yes there aresome hots that are easier than others, but they all need exactly the same care and protocols, because they are all dangerous.when you get the the stage where you consider dwa it should be because you are past the point of making mistakes. make a mistake in the vicinity of a green mamba, or any other hot, and it may be your last


I could not illiterate the above enough! I am still young and have been privilaged to work with hots both in a personnel collection and in commercial collections after 8 years of non-venomous experience, most people never get the chance due to lack of desire and dedication. I cannot stress how much it is an amazing side of the hobby but one not and never to be taken lightly. 

I actually very nearly got tagged by a green mamba, a very experienced keeper & then shop owner was tailing the animal when he lost control and the snakes thrashed very close to my chest. :whip: Even being a third party is dangerous!!!


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

Magik said:


> A hot should be left as a hot IMO


I agree with you there mate. I'm not a fan of shrunken head syndrome or scars even though some operations involve silicone implants to fill the hole. I would not buy one unless it was hot, surgery takes from the essence of it being a mamba. True beauty.

Menza-
I would feel like I was owning a cornsnake to be honest mate.
I would encourage you to build up your experience and get it hot, you will appreciate not having made the choice of venomoid years earlier. If I had a green mamba it would be a prized possession but I won't be keeping elapids myself for many many years. 
Trust me, you will feel much more pride and happiness/love with it as nature created:thumb:


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Even if you wanted to go into hots, a mamba of any kind is a big no-no. Mambas are crazy fast, and are far from scared. These are IMO for EXPERT keepers only!


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## Piraya1 (Feb 26, 2007)

I would suggest working with pit vipers first with a mentor. I personally cannot see myself owning one for at least 10-15 years if at all. I would definitely make sure one has LOTS of room/space to get away from the thing when needed. No furniture, no obstacles, just an empty room with your vivs in one end and a 3ftx3ft plexiglass shield. That is how I would do it. Also making sure there's a big enough window to jump out:lol2:


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## ceratogyrus (Mar 4, 2008)

Jade01 said:


> thats awesome, i might just come and visit you :whistling2:


can i come


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## Jb1432 (Apr 19, 2008)

A venomous snake is venomous for a reason. It's like asking for a boa that doesn't constrict. They should be left as they are. Its illegal in this country to have a hot have either its gland removed or its fangs if i remember rightly? If your gona keep a hot, keep it as a hot not a glorified vine snake: victory:


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

If the guy wants to keep mambas, starting with a pitviper is pointless.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

mad martin said:


> If the guy wants to keep mambas, starting with a pitviper is pointless.


It would at the very least get the keeper into long term rituals of safe keeping.


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## pmpimbura (Jan 12, 2007)

Very true! But disciplining yourself to follow procedures and protocols when dealing with venomous is achieved easier with pit vipers than mambas!


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Long term the animal suffers.
Because now you go through this "process" of grading. First a pitviper then this and so and so on.
All those animals become "secondary" when you get what you want eventually.
If you want to keep mambas eventualy, a hardy elapid like a Snouted Cobra is a good first choice, in my opinion.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

The cobra will teach you alot about working with elapids, far more than a copperhead. Less throw away animals


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## pmpimbura (Jan 12, 2007)

yeah but _Naja_ im my opinion are very different to deal with compared with _Dendroaspsis_ different ball game. And if you were going to jump in the deep end with an elapid _kaouthia_ are far more suitable, in fact majority of the asian _Naja_ are easier than the african stuff. At least dealing with vipers first you develop the skill in using equipment, practising techniques etc and also mental preparation.


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

Making a venomous snake a venomoid is wrong and completely immoral if you want my opinion. Only perhaps if a snake is being used in exihibition situations with children in schools or things of that nature.
The private keeper however should have the ability to confidently work with and be able to safely control a fully venomous snake or not at all.
If your interested in keeping a particular species of snake but fear you need to practice with something similar but less dangerous than it's definately wiser to choose a snake in the same group whether it's a viper , elapid or rear-fanged colubrid so you can get a better idea of the behaviour.
I've never kept elapids but at a guess I'd say keeping them is a lot more difficult than vipers. They're a lot more active than vipers are and move in a completely different way. Even the strike behaviour is different.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

The principles of working with a Naja are the same as working with a Dendro. Hook and tail. The Dendro is just bigger. Which is exactly why I suggested an annulifera. Its a bloody big snake as an adult.
I wouldn't easily tail a viper. Just hook it. That skill I can learn with a rope, certainly don't need a viper to learn it.


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

mad martin said:


> The principles of working with a Naja are the same as working with a Dendro. Hook and tail. The Dendro is just bigger. Which is exactly why I suggested an annulifera. Its a bloody big snake as an adult.
> I wouldn't easily tail a viper. Just hook it. That skill I can learn with a rope, certainly don't need a viper to learn it.


 
Sorry mate but I disagree. You couldn't learn how to hook vipers with a rope. Not at any decent level anyway.
No they're not as active as elapids but they can still trust to be a handfull when they want to be.
My ammodytes vipers are quite laid-back but I can't say the same for my Western Diamond Back or Puff Adder. Large Gaboon vipers that I've also kept in the past have needed a very serious approach as well.
The wild-caught C.cerastes that I have won't even stay on the snake hooks, I have to constantly pass her from one to the other untill I can get her re-housed. She's a complete head-case and would even drop to the floor from a height of 3 feet if I let her.


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## pmpimbura (Jan 12, 2007)

Psychologically you are going to react and behave completely differently to a rope compared with a venomous snake! And yes the priciples of handling _Dendroaspsis_ and _Naja_ are similar BUT they behave completly differently in the way they move and react and in my opinion this knowledge is required when working them.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

pmpimbura said:


> Psychologically you are going to react and behave completely differently to a rope compared with a venomous snake! And yes the priciples of handling _Dendroaspsis_ and _Naja_ are similar BUT they behave completly differently in the way they move and react and in my opinion this knowledge is required when working them.


Totally agree.

I am yet to deal with a 'floating' Naja.


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## mad martin (Sep 4, 2008)

Well I have taught many non-herp keepers how to hook a viper with a rope here at the park. None have been bitten or complained about struggling on the real live version when they need to catch it in the wild.
Keep in mind that the snakes they have captured know nothing about human interaction.
The idea of teaching someone with a rope is to teach him/her how to use a hookstick. Once you can use a hookstick you can start practicing on vipers etc. But you can learn, even on wild puff adders, how to hook a viper in half an hour. So why bother keeping one if you don't want it?
The elapids, on the other hand take longer to get used to.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

It's an odd situation................the snakes that lend themselves to relatively easy husbandry, Asian pitvipers and the like, don't prepare you for keeping elapids safely, the only real way to get use to dealing with elapids unfortunately, is to deal with the bloody things, and that leaves no margin for error. A bite from a _Trimeresurus trigonocephalus_ is going to leave you very swollen and very sore, but, barring allergic reaction, not very dead, a bite from an elapid may well do just that. 
What's the answer? Mentoring............... ok, but who judges these people as competent? Only the fact that they still live and breathe and have all their digits still attached? Personally I wouldn't want to mentor anyone, simply because I would not want to be responsible for someone's accident. What works for me may not work for the guy down the road. What qualifications do you need to be able to teach someone to handle hots? Experience? Most definitely, but which is more valid, occasional handling in the sterile confines of a petshop/private collection or day in day out capture and manipulation of WC animals? I know who I'd rather be taught by.................the best of it is, the best of these guys are all "self taught"
In short, there is no easy answer, "easier" hots are no preparation for faster, more nervous, more potent snakes and there aren't any "trainer" elapids and, as you so rightly say, there ends up being a lot of unwanted snakes as the owner "graduates" to more challenging animals


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## paulrimmer69 (Oct 26, 2008)

i wonder if austin stevens is available for mentoring?:lol2:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Mentoring........now there is an interesting subject!!!!

Check you insurance folks!!!!

Most insurance companies will throw a fit if you mention that word which is actually training!!

I doubt they'd accept it unless you pay a massive premium!!!!

I'm with SD on this an will not train anyone unless they work for me!!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeah it is a risk, I was told by someone that runs mentoring courses already that they may be bringing in venomoids for the training which I think is a good risk free way to train.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

SiUK said:


> yeah it is a risk, I was told by someone that runs mentoring courses already that they may be bringing in venomoids for the training which I think is a good risk free way to train.


But then that opens up the debates to not really being 'trained/mentored' in venomous animals, unless the person in charge doesn't let the people on the course know they are dealing with a venomoid rather than an in tact snake?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeah that could be how it works, thats how I would do it personally.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

SiUK said:


> yeah that could be how it works, thats how I would do it personally.


But then if it was you, wouldn't you want to know exactly what you were dealing with?

See why most people don't bother running courses? :lol2::lol2:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeah I guess, but at the same time its the only thing that would come close to preparing you for venomous other than the real thing, about as close as you can get lol.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

Not a bad idea Si, but there's always the knowledge that if it bites me it won't kill me, which could prevent some people from developing the correct mindset for dealing with "whole" hots. Going back to one of my original statements, who qualifies a person to mentor another? There's an old saying of "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" If you were choosing a potential mentor, what qualifications would you look for?

I know there are people running "hots" courses. Under what guidelines and legislation do they do this? Who sets the appropriate curriculum, ensures consistency of training, assesses the suitability of the mentor to even teach in the first bloody place?

I still say, get yourself a WC ratsnake or racer and "practice" on that. When you can feed, water, clean, medicate and remove partial sheds, every day without getting tagged or having it p*ss off on you then maybe you could consider getting an elapid. After that, the decision is yours........


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeah I agree Stu, there always the mindset that you know its not venomous, nothing truely prepares you like the real thing, mentoring is a good idea, but alot of these guys that are mentors learnt themselves from trial and error over many years, there was no mentors when you guys started was there Stu? and your all still going strong, I know that mentoring is a good idea and a safe way to do it, im not saying its not and really ideally everyone should have it, a good level of common sense will get you on the road though.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

SiUK said:


> yeah it is a risk, I was told by someone that runs mentoring courses already that they may be bringing in venomoids for the training which I think is a good risk free way to train.


Hope they are properly insured......


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

There's the two words that should be uppermost in everyone's mind COMMON SENSE

I've been bitten by virtually all my snakes except hot ones, why? *Common sense.. *it tells me that I can't do things with them that I do with others and I can't take the same liberties.

Before anyone says, I know freehandling _V berus_ does not smack of common sense, but it was a cold day and the animal was very calm. What you didn't see was the ones that I *wouldn't* pick up!!

But again, who says that those who "advertise" their mentoring services are suitable to teach others?
IMO, there should be standardised guidelines of teaching, a curriculum, if you will, and recognised qualifications to sort the wheat from the chaff ,so to speak.

cue opening of can of worms as many arguments ensue as to who is qualified to tell others that they are qualified to teach, what should be taught? whose way is right? Some folks will be ok hook and tailing Gabbys and another guy will say that's all wrong and they should be moved using two hooks, along comes someone else who says that the snake should be tubed for handling...............see where I'm coming from? 
Come on folks lets get a healthy debate going on this:whistling2:


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

This "mentoring" culture that has appeared in the hobbie lately is a time bomb waiting to explode. There are a few self appointed "experts" charging big money to "train" the uninitiated how to handle dwa snakes, misleading them into believing that they are safe. There is one "mentor" who was responsible for a serious bite to one of own staff a few years ago, this same person recently took a dry bite on the ankle from a green mamba. Who would pay a man who's been bitten by a snake to train them how to avoid it? One day one of these "students" will be bitten, the mentor will be sued, his insurance won't be adequate and the media will jump on it and the whole hobbie will be brought into question. These " mentors" are out to make a fast buck. My advice is have the balls to train yourself. Do your homework to make sure that if you are bitten, you know exactly what you have to do. This is what you will be faced with, mentored or not. Your mentor will not be of any use to you if you are bitten. Make yourself safe by using your intelligence and common sense and dont be lead into a false sense of security by someone more interested in your money than your life.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

southwest vipers said:


> This "mentoring" culture that has appeared in the hobbie lately is a time bomb waiting to explode. There are a few self appointed "experts" charging big money to "train" the uninitiated how to handle dwa snakes, misleading them into believing that they are safe. There is one "mentor" who was responsible for a serious bite to one of own staff a few years ago, this same person recently took a dry bite on the ankle from a green mamba. Who would pay a man who's been bitten by a snake to train them how to avoid it? One day one of these "students" will be bitten, the mentor will be sued, his insurance won't be adequate and the media will jump on it and the whole hobbie will be brought into question. These " mentors" are out to make a fast buck. My advice is have the balls to train yourself. Do your homework to make sure that if you are bitten, you know exactly what you have to do. This is what you will be faced with, mentored or not. Your mentor will not be of any use to you if you are bitten. Make yourself safe by using your intelligence and common sense and dont be lead into a false sense of security by someone more interested in your money than your life.


As some of you may know our business has a herpetological consultancy and our public liability insurance and professional indemnity insurances cost us thousands per year........can we train, mentor or give courses where we charge fees?????? You guessed it NO!!!

Insurance company will not cover us......period so we cannot do it EVEN IF WE WANTED TO!!!!!!

There are some serious issue here folks!!!!!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I was wondering how the insurance works because I know what my policy states very clearly


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## southwest vipers (Jun 29, 2008)

slippery42 said:


> As some of you may know our business has a herpetological consultancy and our public liability insurance and professional indemnity insurances cost us thousands per year........can we train, mentor or give courses where we charge fees?????? You guessed it NO!!!
> 
> Insurance company will not cover us......period so we cannot do it EVEN IF WE WANTED TO!!!!!!
> 
> There are some serious issue here folks!!!!!


Thank you for shedding some light on the insurance issue Slippery42. I expect most or all other similar businesses to yours have similar insurance policies. If someone is killed or left seriously disabled whilst being mentored by a so called expert, there will be serious trouble. The health and safety brigade will have every reason to put further restrictions on us. They will be looking to outlaw the hobby. Just look at how its going in the USA.


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## stuartdouglas (Mar 5, 2008)

southwest vipers said:


> This "mentoring" culture that has appeared in the hobbie lately is a time bomb waiting to explode. There are a few self appointed "experts" charging big money to "train" the uninitiated how to handle dwa snakes, misleading them into believing that they are safe. There is one "mentor" who was responsible for a serious bite to one of own staff a few years ago, this same person recently took a dry bite on the ankle from a green mamba. Who would pay a man who's been bitten by a snake to train them how to avoid it? One day one of these "students" will be bitten, the mentor will be sued, his insurance won't be adequate and the media will jump on it and the whole hobbie will be brought into question. These " mentors" are out to make a fast buck. My advice is have the balls to train yourself. Do your homework to make sure that if you are bitten, you know exactly what you have to do. This is what you will be faced with, mentored or not. Your mentor will not be of any use to you if you are bitten. Make yourself safe by using your intelligence and common sense and dont be lead into a false sense of security by someone more interested in your money than your life.


 
At last! Someone who thinks the same as I do, I have my own opinions of one particular person who runs courses.......


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

This has turned in to one hell of a good thread guys!!!

This whole thing on mentoring is interesting!

*Is is being driven by the demands from DWAL applications?*

*Is is being driven by threads such as this one?*

*Or is it being driven by those who would seek to charge for a mentoring course?
*
My DWAL inspector and vet never asked about mentoring though both had done their research and new my background, though perhaps most do not check applicants out beforehand.

Looking forward to more interesting replies from you all!!!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Im not sure that some of the mentoring courses even charge do they?


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

stuartdouglas said:


> At last! Someone who thinks the same as I do, I have my own opinions of one particular person who runs courses.......


If it's the bloke mentioned in his post, my opinions probably the same as yours Stu :lol2:

There is a single mentor who I would give my money to currently, but that is because I know him, have got to know his practices and have total faith in him.

Would I go along to a strangers course, accept what they say and put my trust (possibly my life) in their hands, no bloody way.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> Would I go along to a strangers course, accept what they say and put my trust (possibly my life) in their hands, no bloody way.


Oh yee of little faith!!!!!!!!:lol2::lol2:


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> Oh yee of little faith!!!!!!!!:lol2::lol2:


Aye I know mate, it's that pesky addiction to breathing that does it.

:lol2:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> If it's the bloke mentioned in his post, my opinions probably the same as yours Stu :lol2:
> 
> There is a single mentor who I would give my money to currently, but that is because I know him, have got to know his practices and have total faith in him.
> 
> Would I go along to a strangers course, accept what they say and put my trust (possibly my life) in their hands, no bloody way.


I think thats the same person that was telling me about the venomoid training mate.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

SiUK said:


> I think thats the same person that was telling me about the venomoid training mate.


Ah right.

Be careful with em then, make sure they are actually venomoids :whistling2:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> Ah right.
> 
> Be careful with em then, make sure they are actually venomoids :whistling2:


You seen the youtube video of some "venomoids" being milked.....shit thats scary!!!!


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> You seen the youtube video of some "venomoids" being milked.....shit thats scary!!!!


Yup.

Personally treat any venomoid bar one as if its fully loaded, the one that I don't is owned by a friend and such a dopey animal its unbelievable, plus its certainly 100% 'done'.


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

Young_Gun said:


> Yup.
> 
> Personally treat any venomoid bar one as if its fully loaded, the one that I don't is owned by a friend and such a dopey animal its unbelievable, plus its certainly 100% 'done'.


A snake with no head perhaps????:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

slippery42 said:


> A snake with no head perhaps????:lol2::lol2::lol2:


For all intense purposes it is :lol2:

Was bought as a hots trainer but it's never going to be used as such purely because it's so incredibly docile.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> Yup.
> 
> Personally treat any venomoid bar one as if its fully loaded, the one that I don't is owned by a friend and such a dopey animal its unbelievable, plus its certainly 100% 'done'.


a certain egyption cobra?


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

:whistling2:


SiUK said:


> a certain egyption cobra?


Dunno mate, possible like but dunno :whistling2:


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## Al Hyde (Jan 6, 2008)

Hmmmmm mentoring. Must say I agree 100% with southwest on this , it can only lead to disaster.


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