# leopard gecko morph question



## classix (Sep 11, 2009)

Hello ! 

This will be my first breeding season and with doncaster getting closer I would like to increase my collection with all new wonderful morphs.
I am trying to see what results I would get from various couples.

Would any one be kind enough to tell me what would be the possible outcome of: 

Super snow enigma x diablo blanco ? 

Thank you 
Stephen


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Assuming the Supersnow Enigma is heterozygous for enigma (most are)....

Super snow enigma x Diablo Blanco will give:

50% Mack snow enigma het Blizzard, Tremper albino and Eclipse
50% Mack snow het Blizzard, Tremper albino and Eclipse


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## classix (Sep 11, 2009)

Aaah I see . 

That is what I love about th diablo blanco , it can give you so many hets ! That pave the way for seasons to come 

Thank you very for your time and quick response


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

classix said:


> Aaah I see .
> 
> That is what I love about th diablo blanco , it can give you so many hets ! That pave the way for seasons to come
> 
> Thank you very for your time and quick response


No problems. Putting the offspring to a visual DB would give you a small (1/32 I think...) change at Mack snow Enigma Diablo blancos. These would look exactly the same as DBs I reckon though, so would have to be proven.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

MrMike said:


> No problems. Putting the offspring to a visual DB would give you a small (1/32 I think...) change at Mack snow Enigma Diablo blancos. These would look exactly the same as DBs I reckon though, so would have to be proven.


Yeah only the eyes would be different, you'd have to prove the snow out.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

sam12345 said:


> Yeah only the eyes would be different, you'd have to prove the snow out.


True, the eyes may be more intense, or they could look just the same as normal albino eclipses? Unless they are partial eclipse? Infact, don't think I have seen partial eclipse enigma eyes.

I'm not too sure tbh, do Super Novas eyes differ from Supersnow albinos?


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

MrMike said:


> True, the eyes may be more intense, or they could look just the same as normal albino eclipses? Unless they are partial eclipse? Infact, don't think I have seen partial eclipse enigma eyes.
> 
> I'm not too sure tbh, do Super Novas eyes differ from Supersnow albinos?


Going on Novas, etc they are usually more orange.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

sam12345 said:


> Going on Novas, etc they are usually more orange.


Ahh, of course. Makes sense.


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

MrMike said:


> True, the eyes may be more intense, or they could look just the same as normal albino eclipses? Unless they are partial eclipse? Infact, don't think I have seen partial eclipse enigma eyes.


Funny you should say that mate - remember how I was on about you can defo see the iris on one of the Novas? Anyroad, by the looks of it - whilst they are definitely full, 100% blazing red, I`m positive only half of the eye is actual eclipse/snake eye. Prob not describing it too well, but in certain lights there is definitely 2 sides to each individual eye, one half solid deeper red (looking like the actual eclipse) and the other half burning red, but not quite as solid. What I`m thinking, is that the eclipse half is `the standard albino eclipse` half, and the other - still full red - side, is the enigma genes effect on the albino + eclipse together. Side on though, the eye just looks full eclipse - turn the Nova away from the light, and you can make out 2 distinct halfs. Weird, but lovely.

I`d love to be able to get a really good pic, and have tried so many times but they are ultra sensitive to light - a lot more than the `regular` raptors. I`ll keep going, and make it my life`s mission to get a pic (then let that say what I`m on about instead of all that waffle that prob doesn`t describe anything at all!!!)


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

funky1 said:


> Funny you should say that mate - remember how I was on about you can defo see the iris on one of the Novas? Anyroad, by the looks of it - whilst they are definitely full, 100% blazing red, I`m positive only half of the eye is actual eclipse/snake eye. Prob not describing it too well, but in certain lights there is definitely 2 sides to each individual eye, one half solid deeper red (looking like the actual eclipse) and the other half burning red, but not quite as solid. What I`m thinking, is that the eclipse half is `the standard albino eclipse` half, and the other - still full red - side, is the enigma genes effect on the albino + eclipse together. Side on though, the eye just looks full eclipse - turn the Nova away from the light, and you can make out 2 distinct halfs. Weird, but lovely.
> 
> I`d love to be able to get a really good pic, and have tried so many times but they are ultra sensitive to light - a lot more than the `regular` raptors. I`ll keep going, and make it my life`s mission to get a pic (then let that say what I`m on about instead of all that waffle that prob doesn`t describe anything at all!!!)


I remember! Still waiting for that photo :whistling2:

It is interesting, not something I've thought about until this thread. Keep trying mate, I';m sure alot of people will want to see it.


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

*Enigma Het?.*



MrMike said:


> Assuming the Supersnow Enigma is heterozygous for enigma (most are)....
> 
> 
> 
> Ive always been led to believe all Enigmas were visual only and you couldnt get Het for them Mike!, or as that theory changed now?.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

tonkaz0 said:


> Ive always been led to believe all Enigmas were visual only and you couldnt get Het for them Mike!, or as that theory changed now?.


Heterozygous doesn't mean it is a recessive mutation. Take the mack snow gene, heterozygous = mack snow, homozygous = Supersnow.
It's the same with enigma, however, Enigma is dominant, so both heterozygous and homozygous look the same.

Heterozygous just means two different alleles at a particular locus.


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

Het means carrying the gene yea!, but if you bred Enigma het bell x bell albino and some of the offspring came out bell albino they wouldnt be Het Enigma would they?, like if you bred Raptor to say a macksnow the babes would carry Raptor genes and their young would still carry raptor genes were Enigma genes wouldnt carry on,
I was lead to believe it wasnt homozygous/co dom .


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

tonkaz0 said:


> Het means carrying the gene yea!, but if you bred Enigma het bell x bell albino and some of the offspring came out bell albino they wouldnt be Het Enigma would they?, like if you bred Raptor to say a macksnow the babes would carry Raptor genes and their young would still carry raptor genes were Enigma genes wouldnt carry on.


Ok, I see where your coming from, but...

Take Enigma het bell x Bell (assuming the enigma is het for enigma)

Enigma het bell x bell will give:

25% Enigma Bell (This enigma will be heterozygous for enigma)
25% Enigma het bell (This enigma will be heterozygous for enigma)
25% Bell
25% normal het bell.

Heterozygous doesn't mean hidden. It simply means two different genes at the particular locus in question. At the enigma locus, an enigma can either carry 2 copies of the enigma gene, or 1 copy along with a non-enigma gene and they are both satill enigmas as enigma is dominant to non-enigma (the wildtype).


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

I was lead to believe they also wasnt homozygous/co dom like supersnows!. 
Must do a bit of revising on me genetics! seems im falling behind.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

tonkaz0 said:


> I was lead to believe they also wasnt homozygous/co dom like supersnows!.
> Must do a bit of revising on me genetics! seems im falling behind.


I think its just terms that are getting mixed up. Homozygous doesn't mean codominant/domaint.
A tremper albino is homozygous as the animal carries two copies of the tremper albino gene. A supersnow is homozygous for mack snow.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

The simplest way to look at it is het means one copy homozygous means two copies.

Recessive mutations need two copes of a gene to be visual

Dominant only needs one copy but the two copy equivalent doesn't visually change.

Co Dom can have one or two copies but the one copy(het) will be visually different to the two copy (****) form.

Het bells has 1 normal gene one bell gene.
**** bells has 2 bells genes.

Het enigma have 1 normal gene and one enigma gene but still express as enigma becuae the gene is dominan over normal.
**** enigma has 2 enigma genes but doesn't differ visually from the Het enigma it has just had an enigma gene from each parent.

Het snow is the lesser form in this case mack snow
**** snow is the super form an in this case would be super snow.

Make any sense?


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

sorry to make it more complecated but i will be getting a male tremper albino super snow from mal this weekend which i will be hopeing to pair with a mack enigma het bell, what would be the out come from this?


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

Yea no problems there! I know what the words mean, ha ha, its just putting what im trying to say into understandable english thats what ive got the problem with,

This is what Tremper says! its a bit clearer than me saying it,

Quote,

The ENIGMA has truly been a bit of a mystery until recent breedings could reveal its genetics and what recessive traits and which albino line it might carry. This morph is what is called a "dominant". It is not a co-dominant trait like super giant and super snow. It is an all-or-nothing situation when one breeds an ENIGMA to a non-ENIGMA gecko with the result being that 50% of the young will be an ENIGMA that carries the trait of the non-ENIGMA parent. You can not have a gecko that is "het for ENIGMA" - either it visually is an ENIGMA or it is not.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

tonkaz0 said:


> The ENIGMA has truly been a bit of a mystery until recent breedings could reveal its genetics and what recessive traits and which albino line it might carry. This morph is what is called a "dominant". It is not a co-dominant trait like super giant and super snow. It is an all-or-nothing situation when one breeds an ENIGMA to a non-ENIGMA gecko with the result being that 50% of the young will be an ENIGMA that carries the trait of the non-ENIGMA parent. You can not have a gecko that is "het for ENIGMA" - either it visually is an ENIGMA or it is not.


Well, Ron is wrong. 

Crossing an enigma to a non-enigma will yield some enigmas. All of those enigmas from that pairing will be het for enigma.
He has made it alot more complicated than it needs to be in that statement.
Just remember, het does not mean hidden.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

If you know what het is referring to and works when involving a dominant gene then we all know where we stand.

Otherwise genetics as we know it has been defied and we have a gene that works in a new way.


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

53bird said:


> sorry to make it more complecated but i will be getting a male tremper albino super snow from mal this weekend which i will be hopeing to pair with a mack enigma het bell, what would be the out come from this?


If the Enigma is a 1 copy Enigma (ie het` Enigma :2thumb

25% SS Enigma 100% het T_ALbino, 50% het Bell.
25% SS 100% het T_Albino, 50% het Bell
25% Mack Enigma 100% het T_albino, 50% het Bell
25% Mack 100% het T_albino, 50% het Bell

If 2 copy Enigma (****` Enigma)

50% SS Enigma,
50% Mack Enigmas - both 100% het T-albino, 50% Het B_Albino.


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

funky1 said:


> If the Enigma is a 1 copy Enigma (ie het` Enigma :2thumb
> 
> 25% SS Enigma 100% het T_ALbino, 50% het Bell.
> 25% SS 100% het T_Albino, 50% het Bell
> ...


 
thanks for that funky1 i get to confused with all the gentics. hopefully getting my hands on a nova male, which my plans to try get a super nova. if i breed my male tremper albino ss with my raptor and then breed there offspring with the male nova i might have a chance? i maybe wrong what do you think?


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## tonkaz0 (Apr 25, 2008)

Het as got to be hidden surely! otherwise it wouldnt be het it would be dom! or visual in some way, 
so how would you tell if a macksnow was a het for bell albino then other than test breeding or knowing parentage? you would know by looking that its co dom for super!, 
also I dont think he said that you wouldnt get Enigmas from a Normal x Enigma pairing did he?, I thought he said it would be a 50%50%, 
all the reading up Ive done on Enigmas still say you dont get Hets, can you point me to some literature that I can update on please because I cannot find anything that says different and I really would like to know.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Het does not mean hidden. Het simply means two different genes at the locus in question. Homozygous means both genes are the same. Think of this as the "state" of the gene pair.
Recessive, codom and Dom refer to the mode of inheritance. A recessive mutation has to be in a homozygous state to be visual. A codom mutation is visual in both a heterozygous and homozygous state, but both are visually different. A dominant mutations is visual in both a heterozygous and homozygous state, and both states are visually the same.


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

53bird said:


> thanks for that funky1 i get to confused with all the gentics. hopefully getting my hands on a nova male, which my plans to try get a super nova. if i breed my male tremper albino ss with my raptor and then breed there offspring with the male nova i might have a chance? i maybe wrong what do you think?


A Super Nova is a Super Snow Tremper Albino Eclipse Enigma - and the babies from a SS ALbino X Raptor pairing will all be Mack T_albinos het Eclipse (raptor), if you were to breed any of these to a Nova, you wouldn`t get any Super Snows out of them, so no Super Nova unfortunately - but you would get Dreamsikles.

What you need to get, is a Mack Raptor and a Mack Enigma T_albino het Raptor/Eclipse (or even better a Dreamsikle, or better still a Dreamsikle X Dreamsikle!) to introduce 2 copies of the Mack gene into the equation, plus the Enigma and T_albino, Eclipse - only then will you be able to make a Super Nova tbh.

If you keep in touch later on in the season, I should (fingers crossed) have the odd Dreamsikle, Nova, Mack Raptor, Mack Enigma het Raptor etc available - a few ppl will have some nice things to choose from this year in the UK.


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## 53bird (Sep 30, 2009)

funky1 said:


> A Super Nova is a Super Snow Tremper Albino Eclipse Enigma - and the babies from a SS ALbino X Raptor pairing will all be Mack T_albinos het Eclipse (raptor), if you were to breed any of these to a Nova, you wouldn`t get any Super Snows out of them, so no Super Nova unfortunately - but you would get Dreamsikles.
> 
> What you need to get, is a Mack Raptor and a Mack Enigma T_albino het Raptor/Eclipse (or even better a Dreamsikle, or better still a Dreamsikle X Dreamsikle!) to introduce 2 copies of the Mack gene into the equation, plus the Enigma and T_albino, Eclipse - only then will you be able to make a Super Nova tbh.
> 
> If you keep in touch later on in the season, I should (fingers crossed) have the odd Dreamsikle, Nova, Mack Raptor, Mack Enigma het Raptor etc available - a few ppl will have some nice things to choose from this year in the UK.


ok thanks for your help: victory: i will keep in contact with you, i have had some leos from mjs, slurm, but most have come from mal, who i stay in contact with and hopefully have some nice ones from him this year:2thumb:


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## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

53bird said:


> ok thanks for your help: victory: i will keep in contact with you, i have had some leos from mjs, slurm, but most have come from mal, who i stay in contact with and hopefully have some nice ones from him this year:2thumb:


I heard mate :no1: - tbh I think the majority of ppl still think that they have to go abroad to get really nice leos (like Novas) without realising that there`s gonna be quite a few making some really nice stuff over here - there`ll be shed loads to choose from off a whole host of UK breeders: Dreamsikles, Novas, Mack Raptors, Mack Eclipse, SS Albino Enigma (Bell and Tremper), Enigma Eclipse, TT`s, outstanding Sunglows....maybe the odd Super Raptor and Super Nova too :whistling2: Maybe just the British way though, in that we don`t tend to blow our own trumpets enough!


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

funky1 said:


> I heard mate :no1: - tbh I think the majority of ppl still think that they have to go abroad to get really nice leos (like Novas) without realising that there`s gonna be quite a few making some really nice stuff over here - there`ll be shed loads to choose from off a whole host of UK breeders: Dreamsikles, Novas, Mack Raptors, Mack Eclipse, SS Albino Enigma (Bell and Tremper), Enigma Eclipse, TT`s, outstanding Sunglows....maybe the odd Super Raptor and Super Nova too :whistling2: Maybe just the British way though, in that we don`t tend to blow our own trumpets enough!


 
OOH ERR - no trumpet blowing here young man !!!

:lol2::Na_Na_Na_Na:

You're right though Mukka - some lovely leos will be produced this year UK side for sure ! :mf_dribble::2thumb::no1:


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

MrMike said:


> Het does not mean hidden. Het simply means two different genes at the locus in question. Homozygous means both genes are the same. Think of this as the "state" of the gene pair.
> Recessive, codom and Dom refer to the mode of inheritance. A recessive mutation has to be in a homozygous state to be visual. A codom mutation is visual in both a heterozygous and homozygous state, but both are visually different. A dominant mutations is visual in both a heterozygous and homozygous state, and both states are visually the same.


Yeah - what he said ! :lol2:

I think of them as '1copy' and '2copy' where a 1 copy (het) gives one result and 2copy (****) gives another......depending on the way the gene pair work - recessive/dom etc etc


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

tonkaz0 said:


> Ive always been led to believe all Enigmas were visual only and you couldnt get Het for them Mike!, or as that theory changed now?.


In Recessive.

Normal.
Normal HET Albino.(Is visually the same as Normal).
HOM Albino.(Is visually differant than both Normal & Normal HET Albino).
=======
In Dominant.

Normal.
HET Enigma.(Is visually differant than Normal But visually the same as HOM Enigma).
HOM Enigma.(Is visually differant than Normal But visually the same as HET Enigma).

[1C] & [2C] is slang for HET & HOM in Dominant traits.
=======
In Codominant.

Normal.
Snow HET Super snow.(Is visually differant than Normal & HOM Super snow).
HOM Super snow.(Is visually differant than Normal & Snow HET Super snow).


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## bruceybonus18 (Dec 21, 2009)

i thought i was starting to understand the whole genetics thing until i read this post:bash::lol2:

oh well il keep trying:lol2:


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

bruceybonus18 said:


> i thought i was starting to understand the whole genetics thing until i read this post:bash::lol2:
> 
> oh well il keep trying:lol2:


Thats exactly what you have to do, just keep reading different articles as each author will explain things differently, and sometimes that is enough to make it all click!


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