# New Born Hoglets



## roblouth (Nov 15, 2009)

My APH gave birth to 4 beautiful babies today but she rejected two of them!!!!!! 

I have been drop feeding them every 2-3 hours and so far we have had 2 successful feeds :2thumb:

Fingers crossed they make it through the night, its going to be a long one !!


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## JJReptiles (Jan 20, 2009)

:no1: good luck to you iv hand reared one not long ago and blimey waking up every 2 hours is hard! thats why me and the missus sheared it lol


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Are you sure she rejected them as new mums can sometimes appear to throw them out of the nest but if you use a spoon rubbed in dirty bedding and put them back,they will accept them back into the nest


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Are you sure she rejected them as new mums can sometimes appear to throw them out of the nest but if you use a spoon rubbed in dirty bedding and put them back,they will accept them back into the nest


Lol i laughed at Mark when he did this with our 2 when they fell out the nest. Thought it was so random XD


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## EVIEMAY (Mar 6, 2008)

Good luck with them - I will be thinking of you.


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## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

Good luck with the hoggies : victory:


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## Pinkchi (Nov 23, 2009)

If you disturbed the nest this soon after birth its not suprising mum has rejected some babies. Most hedgehogs are extremely uncomfortable with being disturbed soo soon after giving birth and even the slightest disturbance can cause mum to deystroy a litter.

I would rub some dirty bedding on the babies and pop them back into the nest with a spoon and hope mum take them back. 

Hoglets have a very low survival rate when being hand reared


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## roblouth (Nov 15, 2009)

I didnt disturb her, She had them, I left her well alone. I came back later and she had taken them out the nest, she was collecting more bedding and 'throwing' them out the way. I watched for a bit and it until I was confident she was not gonna have anything to do with them before I made the decision to take them out. 
I will do everything I can for them.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

You haven't really given mum much of a chance given she only gave birth to them today. The fact that she was collecting more bedding could have been her nesting more and moving babies around, just because you don't see her feeding them does not mean she isn't, regardless of where they are - mums move babies occasionally, i would have left it a bit longer before intervening.

It might not be too late to put them back in, i have read experiences where people have had to put bubs back in the nest a few times but mum has eventually taken them back, it probably depends how stressed she is?? Could be worth a try?


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

Unfortunately I too think that perhaps you have not given the Mum long enough with her newborns. If she is a first time Mum, inexperience probably meant that she decided to move the babies around, and two fell out the nest. If she was throwing them out the way as you say, it sounds to me she was probably simply rearranging her nest, and would have taken them back in.

Unfortunately by now having handled them, I very much doubt she would take them back, and speaking from experience, rearing less than even a day old hedgehogs is unfortunately nigh on impossible. 

Is it her first litter- and is it your first time breeding them? 

How is she doing with the other two babies. For you to know there are two more babies, I assume you have had a peak.. I hope this has not further added to the Mums stress levels causing her to reject them too.

When you say you have had two successful feeds- what are you feeding them, how are you feeding them- and how are you stimulating them to go to the toilet. I think one of the main problems rearing at such young ages, is bloat- caused by not stimulatingthe babies to go to the toilet after feeding..

Can you provide further details on how you are caring for the babies- are they on a statted heat mat etc.

Providing further information will enable us to help you further.


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

Is the Mum settled in the nest with her other two babies.. or is she still rearranging and pacing? Has she got a hide to go into with her babies?


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

How are the babies this morning?


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## roblouth (Nov 15, 2009)

Mum has everything she needs and is happy and settled.

I still have them this morning, it has been a long night tho!

I would appreciate some constructive help with stimulating them to go to the toilet as I am finding that difficult.

I appreciate that some of you think I did not give mum long enough but you have to appreciate that I watched (without disturbing her) for long enough that she convinced me she did not want anything to do with them. One is also considerably smaller than the other.

Removing them was not a simple decision but I genuinely believe it was their only chance of survival. 

Thanks


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## EVIEMAY (Mar 6, 2008)

I am sorry I have no experience to share with you.

I hope some of the others will be on this morning to help you out.

Have you had a look at Pigmy Hog Uk -you may get more responses.

Good luck with them


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## indeep (Oct 2, 2010)

Was going to say dont handle them and get a ruler or something that will help you roll them back in nest as sometimes they do this then iv seen the pic so not sure now......

Think what id try and do is to put the tank cent on them and then try and put them back in with her as I dont think thay will live with out her so the long and short of it is you have nothing to lose..........


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## Sarahhampson (Oct 19, 2010)

hi i am not a breeder but i no someone whos hog threw one of her babies out the net she rubbed dirty bedding on them an tried to put it back in it took her 7 tries to get mum to take her back but in the end she did i would advice you try again it wont hurt you trying a couple more times do it when she is eating  an lovely hogs btw :flrt:


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## pgag_1_york (Mar 12, 2008)

you need to get them back in with mum if poss as the best you can hope for with them been hand fed from day 1 is them living to 6 weeks old! id never attempt to hand feed hoglets younger that a week old, your other option is to foster them to another hog but thats a whole set of possible new probs

getting them to go to the toilet is the same as only other animal you need to stimulate them to go but id look at reintroducing or fostering them to another hog


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

roblouth said:


> Mum has everything she needs and is happy and settled.
> 
> I still have them this morning, it has been a long night tho!
> 
> ...


Can you provide a few further details on how you are keeping the babies- what are they in, the temperature of their box, what you are feeding the babies with- milk etc.

I have bred hogs for a number of years now, and on one occasion over a year ago, a first time Mum decided she would destroy her first litter- with the exception of one baby whom was out the front of the nest with his front paw chewed off- yes gruesome I know. I knew that the likelihood of rearing him was pretty much 0%, because they are just so delicate and vulnerable to so many things. However despite the odds- I did manage to keep Tiny Tim alive, and he got to 5 weeks old... (if you search on the hog forums the details will eb there). Unfortunately however, trying to wean Tiny Tim proved extremely difficult. And because I foolishly thought he was developed enough to toilet on his own, I stopped stimulating him, but within a few days, his little tummy got so bloated, and there was nothing I could do for him. Which is why I am emphasizing so much on the stimulation aspect- particularyl when so young. because one meal, with no excretion, would be enough to unfortunately lose the little ones.

I started using a warm wet cotton bud, and gently using a circular motion stimulating their little tummies, and then moving down to their little bits! but I found that with using a cotton bud, you could not really tell -particularly duing the early stages, how much, and even if the babies were passing anythng. So I scrapped the cotton bud, and wet my finger, and did exactly the same as above- and it worked wonders. Once the little ones have gone to the toilet- dry them off with a little cotton wool, as ou dont want to leave them wet and damp.

I do wish you the very best of luck- it is certainly hard work, and nearly impossible, but there is always the slightest chance they may make it.. 

Hope this helps a little .. keep me informed.


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## roblouth (Nov 15, 2009)

I had been feeding them all day and I got one going to the toilet but I made the decision to follow the advice of trying to put them back in with mum. I rubbed them all over with some dirty bedding and put them back in while she was feeding.

She killed them both, i'm kinda gutted now as I thought I was making real progress.


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## snowdrop (Feb 5, 2011)

roblouth said:


> I had been feeding them all day and I got one going to the toilet but I made the decision to follow the advice of trying to put them back in with mum. I rubbed them all over with some dirty bedding and put them back in while she was feeding.
> 
> She killed them both, i'm kinda gutted now as I thought I was making real progress.


Ow no poor hoggies  R.I.P little ones xxxx


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

roblouth said:


> I had been feeding them all day and I got one going to the toilet but I made the decision to follow the advice of trying to put them back in with mum. I rubbed them all over with some dirty bedding and put them back in while she was feeding.
> 
> She killed them both, i'm kinda gutted now as I thought I was making real progress.


What were you feeding them on?

I have to say, after keeping them out over night from their Mum, I would not have even attempted to put them back in with the Mum, I am sorry but that was the worst thing you could have done today.... Taking the hogs from her in the firstplace was a mistake, as she could have taken them back in had they been placed in the nest with a spoon. But they would have had your scent all over them- not to mention the smell fo the food you were giving them etc. 

- You have been online today and I have been asking you how you have been keeping them etc- and have been trying to offer advice, and you come on and say you put them back in the nest?? Why would you do that now !!! 

The chances of survival were slim, and because you had only got one to go to the toilet- the other would have died within a few hours unfortunately anyway. The Mum probably sensed this anyway.

You said you put them back in while she was feeding- she was out the nest feeding or feeding the other babies? 

How are the other babies- or have they been killed too.

I am sorry this has happened, but had you listened in the first place, I feel it may have been a different outcome.

It may seem like I am havign a go, but I am not, I am disappointed for you, having lost two babies.. its hard. 

But I dont understand your logic tonight..


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## indeep (Oct 2, 2010)

sorry.............


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

How are the two remaining babies ??


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

slimeysnail said:


> What were you feeding them on?
> 
> I have to say, after keeping them out over night from their Mum, I would not have even attempted to put them back in with the Mum, I am sorry but that was the worst thing you could have done today.... Taking the hogs from her in the firstplace was a mistake, as she could have taken them back in had they been placed in the nest with a spoon. But they would have had your scent all over them- not to mention the smell fo the food you were giving them etc.
> 
> ...


I don't want to start an argument over this, 'cos frankly I can't be bothered...but I think this kind of I-told-you-so lecture is the last thing the OP needs however wrong their initial removal of the babies. Have a bit of compassion, yeah?

To the OP...I'm sorry you've had a tough time over this. I was lucky with my hogs, but I've heard the 1st litter can be difficult. Better luck next time eh?:2thumb:


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

slimeysnail said:


> What were you feeding them on?
> 
> 
> I am sorry this has happened, but had you listened in the first place, I feel it may have been a different outcome.


He was given lots of conflicting advice from everyone tbh so it wouldn't be easy to know what to do. I have read of cases where babies have been successfully reunited into the nest with their mums after being separated for more than one day so i recommended putting them back based on experiences i have read as have other people who commented probably.

I think this is one of the reasons people should think about getting a mentor before breeding then they could have one person they could go to for good advice as opposed to getting loads of conflicting info/experiences from lots of people in cases like this


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## EVIEMAY (Mar 6, 2008)

mrcriss said:


> I don't want to start an argument over this, 'cos frankly I can't be bothered...but I think this kind of I-told-you-so lecture is the last thing the OP needs however wrong their initial removal of the babies. Have a bit of compassion, yeah?
> 
> To the OP...I'm sorry you've had a tough time over this. I was lucky with my hogs, but I've heard the 1st litter can be difficult. Better luck next time eh?:2thumb:


I have to agree !

The OP has had an upsetting experience and I wish him well in the future.


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

I have already apologised to the OP, as I was not meaning any of my posts to be taken as ''i told you so lectures'' .. all I was doing was offering advice from my own experiences. Gee.. :bash:


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## EVIEMAY (Mar 6, 2008)

slimeysnail said:


> I have already apologised to the OP, as I was not meaning any of my posts to be taken as ''i told you so lectures'' .. all I was doing was offering advice from my own experiences. Gee.. :bash:


You are obviously a very experienced keeper and an asset to the forum.

I just feel in this particular incident the advice given was conflicting and If I was in the OP's shoes I would have been at a loss to know what the right thing to do would have been.

The problem is he will never no if he did the right by trying them back in with the mother or trying to hand rear them - both I am sure carried risks.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

slimeysnail said:


> *all I was doing was offering advice from my own experiences*. Gee.. :bash:


....in a rather offhand manner. Sorry for having to point that out, but it's true.


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## Jamiioo (May 8, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> ....in a rather offhand manner. Sorry for having to point that out, but it's true.


To be honest though, does it not P*** you off at the end of the day how many people come onto forums for advice on breeding when things start to go wrong after they have paired their hogs as opposed to doing all their research beforehand so they are prepared & know what to do for these kind of problems. 

I have seen quite a few posts by people who ask things that prove they aint done adequate research on what they are doing that have really, really, bugged me and i used to sometimes come across as quite "URGHH NOT AGAIN" when posting comments/advice. I still do sometimes but i try to come across as reasonable more often now lol. 

Snaily asked for a few bits of info several times from the OP so she could give him advice on how to improve what he was doing and he never posted back, if that was me offering advice based on my experience i wouldn't be happy given the advice was being handed to him on a plate - but as said already there was lots of conflicting advice...so not easy to know what to do :/


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## roblouth (Nov 15, 2009)

The other two babies are still squeaking, thank you to everyone who Has asked after them.

I did get lots of conficting advice And to be honest was surprised as to how much of a slating I got (via pm) for my actions.

To everyone that has sent me a message of good will or support I genuinely appreciate it and thank you.

The lesson here is certainly to find one mentor in anything and not too ask for a general opinion. 

I am now on tenterhooks for the the other two but hopefully they will be ok


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

But we've all made mistakes along the way. Just because someone has cracked the breeding process, doesn't mean they have the right to have a go if someone else hasn't, and is panicking when it's gone wrong.

I think people get too exasperated all too quickly. A little calm patience and gentle advice instead of a barrage of questions and all the "you've done this wrong/ removed the babies all too quickly" hysteria, might have led to the survival of the babies.

As I said, I'm not going to fight about this...it's not worth it. But I guess I'm just saying there are more appropriate ways to offer advice, that's all.


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

slimeysnail said:


> I have already apologised to the OP, as I was not meaning any of my posts to be taken as ''i told you so lectures'' .. all I was doing was offering advice from my own experiences. Gee.. :bash:





mrcriss said:


> But we've all made mistakes along the way. Just because someone has cracked the breeding process, doesn't mean they have the right to have a go if someone else hasn't, and is panicking when it's gone wrong.
> 
> I think people get too exasperated all too quickly. A little calm patience and gentle advice instead of a barrage of questions and all the "you've done this wrong/ removed the babies all too quickly" hysteria, might have led to the survival of the babies.
> 
> As I said, I'm not going to fight about this...it's not worth it. But I guess I'm just saying there are more appropriate ways to offer advice, that's all.


As said, I have already apologised to the OP- but you are carrying this on. 

The other two babies are doing fine.. and that is the thing we need to concentrate on now !!! 

Mistakes are made, and that is how you gain knowledge, and learn to do things differently in the future.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

slimeysnail said:


> As said, I have already apologised to the OP- but *you are carrying this on*.
> 
> The other two babies are doing fine.. and that is the thing we need to concentrate on now !!!
> 
> Mistakes are made, and that is how you gain knowledge, and learn to do things differently in the future.


Now, be fair...that quote you just took from me was not "carrying this on", but a response to Jamiioo...not yourself. You're taking me out of context there.:whip:


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

:grouphug: Shhhhhh... give me a hug, and we say no more about it !!! Deal? :whistling2:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

No probs....what's done is done:2thumb:


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## Great-Geckos (Jul 25, 2007)

I was following this thread with interest, and must say, I have to agree with Mrcriss. I was so shocked at the way the op was spoken too if his only crime is inexperience. So sad that people feel that they have the right to speak to others this way, no one is better than anyone else, but for the grace of God go we!
Good that you have apolgised Slimeysnail, but that you want it brushed under the carpet so quickly - if others hadn't spoken out over how you treated another person, would you have apologised, or even felt any remorse?
Advise given from experience is great when given in the right way, but when used as a weapon - unproductive and often damaging. Where's the fairness in that?
In this instance heavy handedness may have caused the op to go against his gut instinct - result - tragedy.
In some's opinion these babies wouldn't have survived anyway.....or would they? Has no one ever defied the odds and manged where others have failed?? Of course they have. 
Hoping this might make people treat others with more consideration - no matter what their personal views are.

I don't often speak out on things - usually keep schtum and just think it - but the way this was handled by some left me cold. 

I wish you all the best with the two remaining babies and am sorry for your sad loss. Everyone hs to start somewhere and I think you did very well in a very daunting sitution.


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## slimeysnail (Jan 29, 2009)

Great-Geckos said:


> I was following this thread with interest, and must say, I have to agree with Mrcriss. I was so shocked at the way the op was spoken too if his only crime is inexperience. So sad that people feel that they have the right to speak to others this way, no one is better than anyone else, but for the grace of God go we!
> Good that you have apolgised Slimeysnail, but that you want it brushed under the carpet so quickly - if others hadn't spoken out over how you treated another person, would you have apologised, or even felt any remorse?
> Advise given from experience is great when given in the right way, but when used as a weapon - unproductive and often damaging. Where's the fairness in that?
> In this instance heavy handedness may have caused the op to go against his gut instinct - result - tragedy.
> ...


Wow, I do not believe this forum at times. I very rarely ever speak up on this forum- because people jump down your throat no matter what you say.

If you actually read the thread, all of my posts were repetively asking more questions about he was keeping them... for me to help him further. He didnt reply to my posts.. I was the one who was offering him advice about how to maintain the babies.. as yes, I have managed to rear a baby that was less than a day old.. for 5-6 weeks.. so I do know it is impossible, hence why I was asking what he was feeding etc etc.

All I did was try and help.. and after not hearing back about any questions I had asked- what milk, how many times he was feeding, the temperatures- all these things have to be SO precise to even stand a chance of rearing less than a day old hedgehog. 

I was disappointed to hear he had put the babies back in, of ocurse I was.. because ultimately the babies died. I was not having a go... I have been in contact with the OP.. I apologise that my post seemed harsh when I heard about the hogs being killed.. but do you know why I posted that.. Because I have a heart. and my animals mean the WORLD to me.. and I was upset htat the babies had died... I was only trying to help. My life was put on hold for 5 weeks whilst I reared my baby, Tiny Tim- and I know how upset I was when he passed away... I was only trying to make sure that the OPs babies stood the best possible chance.... 

Yes people have jumped on the thread and had a go, but I at least offered my very best advice, and have come back on the thread genuinely concerned for the little guys, yet most came on to have a go.. and then just left the thread. And now I am back, trying to see how the babies are, and I am being slated for it. 

The little hedgehogs welfare was my prime concern, and I apologised because I was only trying to help... yet you guys are having a go at me for sticking up for myself. 

Read back the thread- I tried to help. I was upset that due to conflicting advice, the hogs were put back in wiht the mother, and were killed.. 

As for sweeping things under the carpet... Christ, I am merely trying to stop this thread turning into a stupid argument, instead of carrying it on. I have apologised, but frankly, I am not the only one who needed to.

''Has no one ever defied the odds and manged where others have failed?? Of course they have. '' Reread my posts... I have...and that is why I am so passionate about my animals, and that was why I bothered to reply to this thread, because I knew/thought I could help.

I wont be replying to this thread again, and if people feel the need to publically make me out to be some kind of horrible person for offering good advice to save those little hedgehogs... PM me, because this is not fair..


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## hippyhaplos (Jan 12, 2010)

To the OP, sorry that things worked out the way they did, and as has been said already what's happened has happened and the two remaining babies should be the focus of effort now!

Great-Geckos I'm sorry but I have to side with Slimeysnail on this one.I personally don't think her posts were meant the way some have taken them. I got my first APH from Sarah, and to say she's a wealth of knowledge is an understatement- She's the only person to have posted with experience of hand rearing hoglets. She had to ask for certain information on more than one occasion. OP this isn't a dig, but I know that if it were me, I'd be responding to every post offering help and advice. 

Exotic owners have enough people against them without having others having goes at them... clarifying situations and getting on with things isn't sweeping things under the carpet... it's called being adult and mature!


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## EVIEMAY (Mar 6, 2008)

There is no doubt that Slimeysnail is a knowledgable keeper and like I said in a previous post an asset to the forum.

Forums are about sharing experiences.

I think it was the conflicting advice which was the issue.

The OP has posted his response - maybe the welfare of the 2 remaining babies should now be the topic of this thread.


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