# Breeding for the sake of breeding



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Does anyone else ever think about their reasons for breeding the species or individuals they want to breed, or decide that, for whatever reason, it's NOT worth breeding those individuals (whether that's "this year" or "ever") ?

I'd posted in the Breeding forum asking which of my males other folks would pair with my female Granite het Amel corn... but I'm starting to question whether I should breed her *at all* next year. She's healthy, she's in good weight, she produces good clutches, I have a matching granite male (and half a dozen other males for other results) ... 

Problem is that next year there really isn't anything I want out of her to keep for myself. I don't need another granite of either sex. I don't need bloodreds with various possible hets, let alone normal, amel or anery babies with various hets/possible hets. They'd be project babies, not visuals, and although I like project hets, the males I have ready now aren't going to make the projects I want.

The boys I DO want to keep project offspring from (Lavamel male, Snow het Hypo Blood male) aren't going to be old enough and big enough to breed next year, they're only '09 babies... 

I almost certainly have an outlet for any offspring I choose to sell as long as I'm happy with store credit at trade prices and I'm willing to ensure that every baby sold has had four consecutive feeds before selling. Not that big a hardship; last year's babies paid for quite a bit of food and equipment. 

So... do I breed the female to produce the largest number of saleable offspring (and breed up a whole clutch of granites that I personally don't want or need in so doing) ... or do I leave her until 2011, let her build up for an extra year and then breed the project hets I want from a female who's had a year off and might make a bigger, better clutch?

What would you do?


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

I started a thread in the lizard section about this..

I am only breeding ONE pair of crested geckos next year.. because I dont see the point in adding a glut of crested geckos to the market when it is already becoming very saturated.. The pair I am breeding are stunning the female being a super dal.. so hopefully the babies will be in high demand, I am also growing them on till they are sexble..

if I were you I'd wait but its all down to personal preference..

PS.. will get those recipes to you this week x


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Its such a difficult question, and so many breeders (well those that I would consider breeders, not simple people who breed reptiles... perhaps a fine distinction....) are asking the same question.

Money is certainly not an issue, my main concern is the huge numbers of animals that are currently on the market which are not selling. The prices are coming down so far, it seems to me people are almost treating them as throw away. A good example of this would be buying a large number of hatchling crested geckos in the hope of getting some 'more valuable' females. The males are an unfortunate by-product and end up getting passed around from pillar to post...

We have decided not to breed our cresties and leos again next year for this exact reason. We really try to vet the homes we sell to, and it becomes very difficult to do this when the market is so flooded, and prices are so low...

Andy


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## SleepyD (Feb 13, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Does anyone else ever think about their reasons for breeding the species or individuals they want to breed, or decide that, for whatever reason, it's NOT worth breeding those individuals (whether that's "this year" or "ever") ?


*nods* I think about this every time ~ for instance this year I only bred five leo females ~ three of which were first timers so smaller clutches ~ the vast majority of my females were not bred at all, some are on their second year of rest and some have never been bred but I am in no rush and I don't feel it's necessary to breed them just for the sake of it.
Next year I'll be breeding even fewer .. just two or three of my first-timer leo girls for a personal project and possibly one or two of my adult fat-tails *if* I get round to it



GlasgowGecko said:


> Money is certainly not an issue, my main concern is the huge numbers of animals that are currently on the market which are not selling. The prices are coming down so far, it seems to me people are almost treating them as throw away.


*nods* would go as far as to say in some cases it's seemed almost equatable/equivelant to 'factory farming'/back-street puppy breeding


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## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Problem is that next year there really isn't anything I want out of her to keep for myself.


That would be enough for me to not bother doing the mating. My own rule is that I only do a pairing if there's offspring that I'd like to keep from it ... breed for yourself, not for any other reason.


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## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Very good point and yes this does pass through my mind on many an occassion I hold 400 reptiles here all sorts 200 being corn morphs alone yet I breed very little and still have 150 hatchlings here to release.

We still have the dilute motley and striped babies to go these pastel dilutes are UK firsts yet generated little interest as corns are sadly not the in thing shame really i'm happy to hold the lot back as I won't see them sell for silly money and be passed from pillar to post.

I so worry and don't produce babies to go to 10 different homes in a few months as they are not the in thing but want the babies i breed to have a good chance at life.

Prob the same reson i still have many many Rhacc's and Leo's other gecks and agarmids here but for the last two years have produced no or very few pre booked babies.

The rare geckos go before they are even conceived but then they are rare for a reason and a pain to get or hatch so always limited numbers.

I for one will be breeding very few next season and giving most a break.

Paula


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## suez (Jul 8, 2007)

i have also given this a lot of thought and will only breed what i want to hold back from .some of my females have never been bred from and some of them never will be bred from.i like many other small hobbyist breeders worry about the throw away pass on culture and also the selling of sick, diseased and uncared for animals that we are seeing all to frequently.i think if we ALL are not more responsible it could have even more disastorus effect on our hobby.


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## excession (Apr 11, 2009)

This thread makes some sobering reading 

I have a few motivations for wanting to grow on and breed the reptiles we have, but it mostly started because I wanted a pair of corns to grow up with us so my son could see them go from hatchlings to adults and then see eggs incubate and hatch.

I had assumed that we'd be able to find homes for the resulting hatchlings.

We dont have aspirations be become big breeders, at most we are considering adding a pair or maybe a trio of royals. Prehaps we will stop at just the 1 royal girl and just leave it there.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

sparkle said:


> if I were you I'd wait but its all down to personal preference..
> 
> PS.. will get those recipes to you this week x


That is what I am leaning towards at this point - leaving Feldspar for a year until my project-plus-granite males are big enough to breed. It doesn't help that she's a great big beefer of a girl, so I don't want to try throwing a titchy little male in with her. 

I am looking forward to the recipes 



GlasgowGecko said:


> my main concern is the huge numbers of animals that are currently on the market which are not selling. The prices are coming down so far, it seems to me people are almost treating them as throw away.


There is that, although this is less of a concern for me - but you get right down to it, since my goal is to produce higher-end stuff, there comes a price point above which people just won't pay "that much" for a pet for little Billy. There are a lot more buyers for a snake that's "pet price" than there are for snakes that are "breeder/collector" price. 

I don't mind being able to price things so that little Billy can have something special for "pet price" ... but at the same time I absolutely REFUSE to produce a clutchful of normals that are selling to *the public* at £5 or £10 a go. It's one thing to get those prices from a pet shop at trade (and I have sold babies to a shop for around that much this year, because I didn't want to deal with timewasters and keeping babies for months and months, until they sold - so my local shop got well-started nice babies with known hets and I got store credit enough to feed the rest for a couple of months).



toyah said:


> That would be enough for me to not bother doing the mating. My own rule is that I only do a pairing if there's offspring that I'd like to keep from it ... breed for yourself, not for any other reason.


I did rather think you might chime in, and you've echoed my essential sentiment.

My breeding goals are not to produce babies that sell... my breeding goals are to breed what *I* want to keep and any surplus *can* be sold, given away or eaten for supper (joke) but that's the side, not the focus. We're breeding three of our morph male royals next year. Why? Because we want a female pinstripe, a female cinnamon, a female pewter and a female lesser for ourselves. 

It's a hobby for us, not a living. I suppose I should really think of it that way more often rather than worrying "but what if I don't breed so-and-so?"

If there were some way to have the snakes JUST produce what you wanted to keep (and maybe a couple of things that you could use to trade for other things you want but don't have) that'd be so convenient!



excession said:


> This thread makes some sobering reading
> 
> I have a few motivations for wanting to grow on and breed the reptiles we have, but it mostly started because I wanted a pair of corns to grow up with us so my son could see them go from hatchlings to adults and then see eggs incubate and hatch.
> 
> I had assumed that we'd be able to find homes for the resulting hatchlings.


Don't get me wrong, I have had no trouble selling the babies I wanted to sell this year - but I personally don't want to routinely overproduce if there's nothing in the clutch that I'm going to say "ooh, I want that for myself."

That's the whole point of it for me, being able to look over the clutch and say "I'm keeping that one, that one and maybe that one."


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

I've not bred my hognose this year as I'm not looking to keep more normals ergo to breed just for the sake of it would be pointless in my mind.

I have a few test breedings planned for next yr when my more morph/interesting males will be ready to breed. Hognose have a lot of potential for new morphs so you can have 'project' to work on if something 'interesting' shows up.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

This year we have only set the strongest largest eggs from vittikin and yemen clutches, resulting in average of 10 hatchlings (1 cluch of yemens and 3 of vitikins) we will not be breeding vits again although there is always a demand........ far to many £5 baby beardies in the classifieds and although mine are 3rd generation vittikin and not beardies I still dont want to add to the huge amount of dragons on the market. I will now only consider breeding high end perhaps in a year or so (and then just one female)

my cresties have been split up for several months now, I do however have 'plans' for next year so 3 groups will be bred from but there will be a lot of hold backs from the resulting offspring 

I have bred no snakes this year for the reasons outlined in other peoples posts.


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## Big Red One (Oct 17, 2007)

I am having similar thoughts at the moment, I've got some great potential and want to do a few things with my Bells in particular over the next couple of years... 
However, seeing as I'm struggling to get any interest in some quality babies this year, it really does seem like it will just add to the numbers already out there and that in my opinion is not a good thing.

I am really thinking of breeding only 3 pairings now next year, for my own 'projects' and pleasure, the problem is the remainder do still need to 'go somewhere' and I don't want to end up giving them away as this only worsens the situation and I can't stand the thought of owners taking them on withough any long term thoughts....
I have 'too many' really already for the space that I have and I can't keep them all back !
It's a real shame that people genuinely looking to hobby breed for all the pleasure it gives, appear to have fallen foul of the sell em low, breed em all types that are making it so difficult to move on almost anything at the moment......... :censor::devil:


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## Johelian (Nov 25, 2006)

Thankfully Corucia only produce on average 1-2 babies every couple of years, so this is never a tough decision for us. Our plan has always been to breed to develop our own entirely CB circuli to ensure that we don't end up without any in the future; its hard enough to find these for sale now. The only ones I'm looking to sell are those that don't fit into a CB circulus - related individuals etc. Its especially difficult at the moment as we had twins born last year, one of which was male and the other female. We now have 3 CB girls, and 1 CB male related to all of them except one. Thats a bit gutting!

I do feel that too many people buy any old pair of lizards and breed them without any further thought. Everyone and their dog seem to think that breeding is their right. While Im against inbreeding for aesthetic reasons, I do think there should be a bit more discipline in captive breeding. Many individuals are not as careful as others, and it can result in some species becoming "polluted" in captivity, which would be a real shame. With things the way they are economically now as well some of these more careless people may find themselves in an undesirable position; feeding countless babies with no-where to send them.


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

breeding nothing this year, next year defo my dumerils, and if i go ahead with a cuban tree boa pair. pretty much just animals that there is no huge number of in captivity (over here anyway)


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## Khanidge (Jul 25, 2008)

I breed my reptiles because to me its the icing on the cake or ultimate goal to your patients and husbandry over the x amount of years that you have nurtured them. I get a Buzz from seing those little babys for the first time.
I have 2 male and 4 female Dumerili's (amoungst other snakes and Geckos) I only bred one fe-male last season and a different one this season both being thier first Pairings. Yes I could breed with all 4 girls but i see it as unnessasary
The same buzz is even experienced by the Larger scale breeders when a new mutation/morph has hatched/been born. Others will dissagree with me and say
"it's the money that they get the Buzz from"
This is not entirely true. 
I generally keep Rarer species. These generally have more precise husbandry needs so they are more of a experienced keepers animal.
So finding homes for the young isnt much of a problem. 
But If needs be that I needed the procedes of breeding to fund another project then I would do this for that reason if it doesnt cause undue stress to the adult animals in question.

very Interesting thread for a change..

Deano.......


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

I have had a breedable female butter corn for a year or so now but haven't bred her as i'm not sure there would be enough demand for possibly 20+ hatchlings and i wouldn't want to keep another one. I initially wanted to breed some of my other corns when up to size but i'm definitely having second thoughts now and will most likely end up just keeping them as pets. The only ones i think i would consider breeding now would be the plasma poss het hypo and fire to get bloods het opal poss het hypo as i would love to produce my own opal bloodred (eventually - they are 08's so would be 5 more years in the making).

The OH initially wanted to breed her 11 leopard geckos but she changed her mind when it became apparent just how many people bred them and how many were for sale, so again, just pets. 

Would be nice if our uromastyx occellata bred as they aren't so common as corns and leos and we aren't even sure if they are a pair yet.

The royals however i AM (they are) breeding this year (or trying) as i definitely want to keep back a female enchi if i'm lucky enough to produce one and i have lots of plans for the other offspring..........

Still seems to be plenty of demand for royals, morphs and wild type alike.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

thing for me is, whatever stays at my house pays for itself.. so although i probably wont breed everything next year, i will likely sell whatever i dont breed.
If i cant sell the babies, like now with most, then there is no point producing them obviously.. i'll breed the royals tho as i have a lot of plans there and want to produce my end targets from what i have now


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## snickers (Aug 15, 2007)

With corns especially it's npot entirely your decision whether or not to breed. I had some females I didn't want to breed that produced eggs anyway. Complete waste. The female goes through the same stress and for nothing.


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

I think breeding for what you want is always the best way, thats how I work personally, sometimes it may take a few clutches to get that perfect example I was after or the right combo so always snakes that have to be sold. Had a right old shuffle to figure out what I personally like and want to continue breeding this year, so have expanded numbers but reduced species.

I must admit I do enjoy the process of breeding snakes as well as the super cute hatchlings/neonates that I see each year. I think the market is flooded right now more than any other year but cant say I have had particular problems selling snakes this year, havent had to drastically reduce prices on normal stuff, some geckos on the other hand have had a really bad year.


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