# CANNA coco fiber



## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

hi guys iv only used the dried coco fiber bricks which expand in the past, but iv got hold of a CANNA COCO NATURAL 50L bag and was wondering if this is safe for phibs?

only extra additive i can see if the Trichoderma fungus but i have no clue if thats harmful or not. cheers.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Reece; Try Googling " Trichoderma fungus Amphibians ", for half an hour.

Then, soak that stuff in petrol and set light to it. Or grow some indoor plants in it.

It's Very hard to discern if it wipes out amphibians or not. But, some fungii certainly do. Blowed if I'd risk it.


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

el Snappo said:


> Reece; Try Googling " Trichoderma fungus Amphibians ", for half an hour.
> 
> Then, soak that stuff in petrol and set light to it. Or grow some indoor plants in it.
> 
> It's Very hard to discern if it wipes out amphibians or not. But, some fungii certainly do. Blowed if I'd risk it.


ok i wont risk it then. just thought it would be nice to use since it's ready to use out the bag. 
soaking the bricks and breaking them up is pretty tedious. cheers mate.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

All forms of substrate that consist solely of coco fibre must be seen as being 'non-natural'.


This is for a whole host of reasons.


We must always base our keeping choices on the laws of natural development over time. This suggests that every species has a 'use for' and 'level of protection against' everything that it encounters in it home range. This is its developmental pathway and therefore, its 'need'.


No soil is made up from 100% organic matter! Soil is mostly made from minerals, gases and liquids and then organics. It is this blend that both sustains this living breathing layer and all of the inhabitants from macro to higher vertebrate in some way.


Coco is also seen as 'non-natural' as it is a by product and one that is made from harsh, long and fibrous strands. This poses a very real risk in impaction as there is no interaction with it over the long development in high quantities.


It is also quite nutrient poor, this is why it is used in Hydro gardening where it is the flowing nutrient rich soup in the water that sustains the plant, not the compound holding the plant upright. They also use ceramic and glass balls and a wool like fibre to do so. Being nutrient poor, it does not mess up the dedicated system of nutrition.


Add into that, the reports of fungal and bacterial load that is possible and it makes for a troubling substrate.


Unfortunately, over the history of our hobby, some real corkers of poor substrate choices have been marketed. Walnut chipping and calci-sand amoung a few like cocofibre stand out.


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

Arcadiajohn said:


> All forms of substrate that consist solely of coco fibre must be seen as being 'non-natural'.
> 
> 
> This is for a whole host of reasons.
> ...


so assuming i cannot import a load of soil from the wilds of south africa, what do you suggest?

iv used the coco fibre bricks for years for a variety of animals and haven't had a problem.


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## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes, it is far more effective in terms of plant growth over time and bioactive support to use a mineral/organics mix. 


EarthMix and EarthMix-Arid are my answer to the issue.




reece_p said:


> so assuming i cannot import a load of soil from the wilds of south africa, what do you suggest?
> 
> iv used the coco fibre bricks for years for a variety of animals and haven't had a problem.


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Yes, it is far more effective in terms of plant growth over time and bioactive support to use a mineral/organics mix.
> 
> 
> EarthMix and EarthMix-Arid are my answer to the issue.


just to clarify this is for an african bullfrog. i do a complete clean out every 3 months anyway as i dont have plants in there and i never feed inside the enclosure unless i tong feed.

it takes 80 litres to fill 2/3 of his enclosure and that would cost 80 quid with the earthmix as opposed to 30 for the coco bricks. i think its a no brainer for me. i appreciate the suggestion. cheers.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Reece; I think we seriously need a thread dedicated to ye Bullfrog! With pictures! :2thumb:

Interesting, the whole substrate deal. I've only ever used the blocks once in my life. I seem to recall it was all a bit nail biting. But, the result was great ~ I _didn't_ manage to end up with a bucket of dirty water!

_Does_ take an amazing load, to make any difference though, doesn't it?! Dunno how big ye frog / enclosure is. But, yeah, I can well imagine it swallowing an appreciable volume of blocks.

You'd probably know better than me then (This whole coco thing is after my time. I've come back to the scene to find it's appeared) But, I covered my toads coco blocks material with some " Prorep Coco Bedding ~ Course Grade ". It's pretty much like the bark chip mulch we see.

Just wondering; They do a Fine Grade. I imagine ye've already considered that, use from the bag, stuff and found it in some way unsuited? Cost alone, maybe? Dunno. No idea what I paid for this stuff. Never handled the Fine Grade.


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

el Snappo said:


> Reece; I think we seriously need a thread dedicated to ye Bullfrog! With pictures! :2thumb:
> 
> Interesting, the whole substrate deal. I've only ever used the blocks once in my life. I seem to recall it was all a bit nail biting. But, the result was great ~ I _didn't_ manage to end up with a bucket of dirty water!
> 
> ...


ye the pro rep stuff would work out about 20-30 quid dearer than the blocks i get. 

it would be nice to use ready made stuff as soaking 8 bricks and breaking them up and then wringing them of the excess water is a fair job in itself. 

hes hit 8.5 inches now at 13 months old and i hope he hits at least 9 inches. he's in a custom 4ft enclosure which some might say is overkill for A.bullfrog as they literally don't move unless they're eating, but i like to make sure my animals have decent leg room.

im pretty sure i have about 6 blocks left in the loft, i guess ill start soaking them now :2thumb:


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

8.50" at thirteen months?! My god! :gasp: Seriously; Get some Film of this muvva! (I'm not even sure I want to Ask what he eats! 'Strays'?! :lolsign


My Common Snapper is 6.0", each way. Give or take, he's not much older than ye frog. No real idea what, if any, bearing that has on the conversation. But, I've found he _can_ actually swing between just plain dangerously hungry and ready to take food.

Love the idea of the four foot enclosure! More power to ye! I've personally stood and watched a Ceratophrys sprint the length of a, what? 18", 24" tank? (Fair sized frog too) and smash against the glass. Because someone showed it their finger. 

Nice to hear of a potential Raging Bull(frog) at least being given room to exhibit its potential.

These blocks? Are they _really_ that much trouble? I'd have thought experience would have given ye the knack. X water to Y blocks. Walk away. Come back to stir the lot up.

Some sort of 'food blender' whisk, on an electric drill?


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

ye i really need to start taking videos.

hes actually calmed down a lot with age and so has his appetite. they grow real quick up until about 10 months old then slow right down, including activity. 

up until 7 inches he polished off 20 adult dubia easily every other day.
nowadays hes on 2 large mice a month and about 15-20 adult dubia per week. 

he can be defensive but its a lot more rare nowadays. although he gave me a nice threat display the other week, all pumped up with his mouth wide open. i had only seen one do that on a wild life programme before.

with the bricks i just dump them in a big bin and submerge with water. come back in 30 mins and break them all up. pain in the arse, and pumps the old forearms up real good lol.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

reece_p said:


> up until 7 inches he polished off 20 adult dubia easily every other day.
> nowadays hes on 2 large mice a month and about 15-20 adult dubia per week.


_Dear God!!!_ I'm just thinking about the Cost!!! Okay, when I had mine, Dubia's weren't heard of ~ and we're only talking a couple of decades ago! But, then; In those days, Dendrobates were the stuff of Myth and Legend! _Now?_ Kids wander into pet shops and come out with 'My First (Dart) Frog' Kits! mg:

Started mine on pinkies. Worked him up. Fuzzies. Fluffs. Snatching and swallowing full grown bloody mice!!! (All defrosts, obviously) Just astonishing to see them, isn't it?

Yet, as I remember it, my one was probably less than four inches? I think? When everything went to rat schit.

Twenty years later, I can manage stuff again. Got my B. bufo set up. Got my new Snapper. I'd kill for another Pyxicephalus. And another Tiger Sally would complete the bucket list! :2thumb: Some of these creatures just get ye that way, don't they?!


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

el Snappo said:


> _Dear God!!!_ I'm just thinking about the Cost!!! Okay, when I had mine, Dubia's weren't heard of ~ and we're only talking a couple of decades ago! But, then; In those days, Dendrobates were the stuff of Myth and Legend! _Now?_ Kids wander into pet shops and come out with 'My First (Dart) Frog' Kits! mg:
> 
> Started mine on pinkies. Worked him up. Fuzzies. Fluffs. Snatching and swallowing full grown bloody mice!!! (All defrosts, obviously) Just astonishing to see them, isn't it?
> 
> ...


lol he was eating me out of house and home for a while. dubia's aren't cheap at all. i had other animals to feed as well and my dubia colony couldn't handle it. 
thankfully his appetite has slowed and my colony is good again so i no longer have to keep buying extra.

i didn't actually have to search that long for mine. and there's always one or two in a few reptile places but obviously unsexed, and lets face it we all want the huge males. so its a gamble when you buy a baby.

i was thinking of getting another big phib, but i think ill leave it for now :lol2:


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

reece_p said:


> i didn't actually have to search that long for mine. and there's always one or two in a few reptile places .....



That's easy for you to say, mate! :sad: I'm in Co. Leitrim and ye can't get a guinea pig, here.

To get my snapper, I had to go right up to the north of North Antrim. Turtle cost me £80.00. Taxi cost me €120.00!!!

Only other place would be Dublin. €200.00 round trip! :gasp:


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

el Snappo said:


> That's easy for you to say, mate! :sad: I'm in Co. Leitrim and ye can't get a guinea pig, here.
> 
> To get my snapper, I had to go right up to the north of North Antrim. Turtle cost me £80.00. Taxi cost me €120.00!!!
> 
> Only other place would be Dublin. €200.00 round trip! :gasp:


that's rough. probably the only negative to living in such a nice place though i bet? 

im in south london so access to things is easy, but the area itself i hate. but that's a whole different topic.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

I used to live in Portsmouth. Passed Arundel Aviaries on my way to work. Had a limitless slate in there. On delivery day, I'd be there as John inspected the shipment. It was nothing for me to just say; " I'll take the lot, John. ". I was practically paying a second mortgage with them! It was just a way of life :mrgreen:

But, yeah; What a loathsome place to live! My creature room was my escape from the feral lunatics who roamed the streets outside my front door. I can well imagine it being much the same for you?

Now? As my above. Practically impossible to get live creatures. Even live foods, for my toads, is a major drama. So, I guess, looking at it? I simply _couldn't_ have the sort of gear I used to have, even if it were available. Because the _food_ isn't.

This is why I'm lucky in that a Pyxi and my Snapper are my obsessions. Snapper eats chunks of beef, and the mice I trap and freeze all winter long. I'd soon get a Bullfrog onto mice too.

Ever tried yours with just raw meat? Mine would sit there and snatch what ever was presented. I just only ever presented mice.


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

el Snappo said:


> I used to live in Portsmouth. Passed Arundel Aviaries on my way to work. Had a limitless slate in there. On delivery day, I'd be there as John inspected the shipment. It was nothing for me to just say; " I'll take the lot, John. ". I was practically paying a second mortgage with them! It was just a way of life :mrgreen:
> 
> But, yeah; What a loathsome place to live! My creature room was my escape from the feral lunatics who roamed the streets outside my front door. I can well imagine it being much the same for you?
> 
> ...


yes mate. people getting stabbed weekly up the road from me. old men walking home from the pub have been recently getting sucker punched and robbed.
i personally don't go out to the shops after 10 pm anymore.

as for feeding raw meat i have actually tong fed raw chicken breast and raw beef. but that was when i out of dubia. im not sure if i would feed raw meet as a staple. i like to think they get enrichment out of chasing live food.

i was thinking of feeding the mice i used to catch but i was scared of parasites.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Day after I burned rubber out of Pompey? Bloke was shot, outside the local Police Station, few hundred yards from my door mg: Never looked back!


My snapper, at least, is thriving on raw beef steak. But, I like to give him a dead mouse about once a week or so too. Maybe every fourth feed or so?

I consider the mouse a 'complete diet' package. All that natural calcium, vitamins and minerals. Not to mention roughage. I _do_, now and then, slit a chunk of beef open and slip some Nutrobal in there. But, I'm happier with the pure, natural thing.

Now, in your case? Frankly? I wouldn't. I live in the middle of no where. Nothing but fields around me, as far as the eye can see. And I also just happen to be the local Rat Catcher! :mrgreen: I know, better than anyone, what goes into the local mice. 

In an urban environment though? Ye never know what those mice have ingested before they turn up at your place. If ye live in a terraced row? Absolutely forget it! Mrs Jones, three doors down, may be feeding them Brodifacoum, and she's hardly going to tell you ~ if ye even Know ye neigbour three doors down?

Point is; Baited mice can travel. Never worth the risk. Bag, bin or burn them. No matter how healthy they may look.


Parasites though? I get this all the time .....

So, what are we proposing here? That Captive Bred stuff is of such a weakened immune system that it'll die if fed a wild creature? It's once natural and Only diet will now kill it? Jesus christ!

Okay. So, rather than promulgate continuing generations of ever more pathetic snow flakes of specimens; I _Dare_ to expose my creatures to the odd bit of rough and ready. Ye know; _Natural_ food.

I can't provide a google link to support my notions. But, personally? I think it keeps their immune systems topped up.

Just look at what they're doing to ferrets, these days. I have the better part of a centuries experience around ferrets. Yet I'd be reported if I even Suggested to the fluffy brigade how to feed and house one!

No. My turtle _and_ my latest pup were both handed to me with a bag of some sort of pellets. Both bags went straight on the compost. Both creatures now feed, and thrive, on raw flesh and bone :thumb:


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

i agree, a natural, more raw diet is the way to go. used it with my dogs and other animals and they seem to prefer it.


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## el Snappo (Mar 4, 2017)

Local " Vet " actually said to me ~ in front of my equally jaw dropped mate:

" I'd prefer ye didn't feed them raw. Dogs aren't really cut out to eat meat, ye know. " 

:eek4: I schit ye not!!!


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## reece_p (Feb 11, 2011)

el Snappo said:


> Local " Vet " actually said to me ~ in front of my equally jaw dropped mate:
> 
> " I'd prefer ye didn't feed them raw. Dogs aren't really cut out to eat meat, ye know. "
> 
> :eek4: I schit ye not!!!


ha. i wouldn't be surprised if they tried to fob you off with their "special" vet formula food :lol2:


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