# Enigma Breeding Results so far.....



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Firstly just a note to let you all know that Pete and Sarah's vet has taken our Enigma female bought from HISS for tests. Pete took her to Mr Chitty on the 18th July together with two others and they will be sent to the Netherlands for tests. We will keep you posted when we have some results - whatever they may be.

Next we thought it would be good to share experience of our Enigma breedings this year to aid better understanding of how this morph is working. Clearly further breeding in the coming years will aid understanding further and it would also be good to know other breeders experiences...

*Enigma x Enigma:*
6 hatched - 2 normal (33%), 4 Enigma's - none have exhibited any abnormal behaviour despite the female having a balance issue (this is the female submitted for tests).

What is interesting here is that the offspring are displaying considerably brighter colours than the Enigma x outcross offspring we have.

*Enigma x High Yellow (x2):*
18 hatched, 6 normal (33%), 12 Enigma's (6 still incubating). One neonate is displaying abnormal behaviour - circling, rather unsteady on right side, otherwise is growing and eating fine.

*Enigma x Bell:*
11 hatched, 4 normal het Bell(c25%), 7 Enigma het Bells (4 still incubating), one is exhibiting odd behaviour via head wobble again eating etc fine.

*Enigma x Raptor:*
2 hatched, 1 normal het raptor(50%), 1 enigma het raptor (4 still incubating), none with odd behaviour.

*Enigma x Mack Snow*
16 eggs laid, 3 hatched, 1 normal (33%), 1 mack snow(33%), 1 mack snow enigma(33%). The Mack snow enigma was deformed and was euthenised.

We are not sure now whether the Enigma and mack snow genes are too compatible given these results. We have heard of problems with this pairing from other breeders but equally we have seen some awesome Enigma mack snow animals.

In summary then out of 40 offspring (including 6 from enig x enig) only 2 have shown any behavioural problems and 1 deformity (which may have nothing to do with the Enigma in any event). Interestingly none of the enig x enig offspring have shown any problems so far.

Whilst this shows a 5% 'affection' rate it demonstrates that it is a fairly indiscriminate problem. Hopefully future breeding tests, other breeders experience and the results Mr Chitty may have, will help us all better understand this morph.


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## boywonder (Mar 10, 2008)

thats cool nick what a great idea, if all the enigma breeders listed their results from this season maybe we could get a general picture of how bad the enigma issues are overall, maybe you had a lucky season, or maybe a fairly typical one, who knows. i seem to be having a late season this year, my no het enigma female became receptive last week and i mated her with a raptor but as of yet no enigma babies this year


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

cool, we will list ours too (see how many other breeders of Enigmas are so forthcoming!!!)

*Enigma het Bell x Bell Enigma* - 4 hatched, all Bell Enigmas. 2 affected, 2 no issues. 1 effected gecko submitted to Mr Chitty.

*Enigma het Bell x Tangerine Carrot Head Tremper* - 5 eggs, 4 hatched, 1 incubating. 2 hypo's, 2 Enigmas no issues.

*Bell Enigma x Bell Albino* - 4 eggs, 2 hatched, 2 still incubating. 1 Bell Albino, 1 Bell Enigma, no issues.

*Bell Enigma x High Yellow* - 14 eggs, 6 hatched, 8 still incubating. 2 Enigmas. 4 Normal het Bells. 1 Enigma showing weird head twitching, star gazing submitted to Mr Chitty.

Interestingly, i don't know if you saw Ron Trempers bold sweeping statement regarding Enigmas on his site!!

_"The ENIGMAS also can display a physical defect in the form of shaking, spinning and/or head arching. The exact reason for this behavior is still largely unknown, but it is seen to a lesser degree in young whereby only one parent is an ENIGMA. ENIGMAS bred to each other may amplify this problem. Some ENIGMAS do not display any problems whatsoever while others reveal abnormal movements only when they are disturbed. 

It is possible that this problem can be bred out of this unique morph over time, but as seen in Spider ball pythons, it may be something that will always be present and not an overall health risk. In my opinion, the positive results seen in the last 2 years greatly outweigh any downside. 

2008 has been our first year working with this morph and it has been found that 100% of our ENIGMA crosses have not only survived, but have grown nicely, even when some degree of shaking was seen"._


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

I will add my findings, although only involving one Male engima !

Tangerine Engima x Super Hypo Tangerine baldy : 6 eggs, 1 failed, 5 hatched. 3 hypo tangerines and 2 Enigmas (1 hypo and one, well who knows, pinky white body with kinda beige saddles.) This second one showed mild signs of circling and balance problems, esp just after handling. Light did not seem to affect him.

This second one was around 2 weeks premiture and this may have been the reason for its sudden death at 5 days old.

The Other Enigma is doing fine, no signs of any problems (thus far)

Got 4 other eggs cooking from the same Enigma x Super hypo, so may have further results later.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Interestingly, i don't know if you saw Ron Trempers bold sweeping statement regarding Enigmas on his site!!
> 
> _"The ENIGMAS also can display a physical defect in the form of shaking, spinning and/or head arching. The exact reason for this behavior is still largely unknown, but it is seen to a lesser degree in young whereby only one parent is an ENIGMA. ENIGMAS bred to each other may amplify this problem. Some ENIGMAS do not display any problems whatsoever while others reveal abnormal movements only when they are disturbed. _
> 
> ...


We did read it - the point is not quite made in the way perhaps it should be in our opinion. As has been said many times before on this Forum, it is all 'maybe's' - no-one, to our knowledge has, identified exactly what the 'problem' might be, it is all conjecture at the moment. Certainly our experience (albeit limited) does not bear out the statement that "Enigma's bred to each other may amplify this problem!"

Let's hope that it is identified by Dr Chitty and his colleagues and that it is appropriate to continue working with this incredible morph.


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> We did read it - the point is not quite made in the way perhaps it should be in our opinion. As has been said many times before on this Forum, it is all 'maybe's' - no-one, to our knowledge has, identified exactly what the 'problem' might be, it is all conjecture at the moment. Certainly our experience (albeit limited) does not bear out the statement that "Enigma's bred to each other may amplify this problem!"


We took it upon ourselves to email RT to ask him where is data came from and that maybe he should mention this in the statement.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> We took it upon ourselves to email RT to ask him where is data came from and that maybe he should mention this in the statement.


Would have been useful if he had elaborated a little tbh - after all he is highly respected and should qualify what is said given the weight many of us in the hobby attach to what he says...


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Would have been useful if he had elaborated a little tbh - after all he is highly respected and should qualify what is said given the weight many of us in the hobby attach to what he says...


Well i would say his intentions are very clear with his reply!

_*From:* __Sarah Pete Evans_
_*To:* __[email protected]_
_*Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2008 6:27 AM_
_*Subject:* Enigma comment on your site._


_Dear Ron,_

_Whilst we appreciate you candidness regarding the Enigma issue i found your comment to be somewhat sweeping. We would like to know where you have found your data regarding the comment and what studies you have done to confirm your comments?_

_We are pioneering research here in the UK with our good friend and vet, Mr John Chitty, who specialises in Reptiles & Raptors. He is enlisting the help of colleagues in the Netherlands to try and get concrete and conclusive results as to what and why are causing these issues rather than relying on conjecture and maybe's! We have submitted several affected Enigmas to date._

_We are not expecting you to change the statement, but maybe you could simply add where your confirmed data has come from apart from your own breeding of the morph._

Ron's reply:

_From: *Ron Tremper* ([email protected]) _
_Sent:_
_29 July 2008 14:43:30_

_To: _
_Sarah Pete Evans (__[email protected]__)_


_My page stands. _

_Ron_

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sorry but what an absolute and utter arrogant ****! Sorry Paul & Faith but this has compounded the fact that he doesn't give a toss about the geckos at all seeing as he's not prepared to help the Enigma community.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Well i would say his intentions are very clear with his reply!
> 
> _*From:* __Sarah Pete Evans_
> _*To:* __[email protected]_
> ...


I find it astonishing that a man of his standing and experience in the herp community can take such an offhand attitude. All of us who keep Leo's and care for them use his text's as the first source of reference.

This does not set a good example to the hobby in the UK or anywhere else for that matter - what sort of message is it giving to those who seek advice from those with experience?

I am, to say the least, very disappointed as it seems to me to be a business motivated reply not one that is motivated by the welfare of the cultivar.


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## slimrob (Mar 11, 2006)

hi guys
i am probably only half way through the season, however i have hatched a total of 9 siblings from 7 different clutches, 5 of which are enigma with no problems so-far. This is from enigma male to normal females, the only thing i can say this early is that the fertility of eggs has been low compared to other pairings. i have had no deformitys in the eggs, they have just not been fertile.
i will update these figs as my season ends.
perhaps we should request a new catagory dedicated to pooling all our findings perhaps "enigma data pool" or something on here.
what do you think..
rob


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## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

I will apologise on behalf of Ron. At the moment he his very busy with over 60+ hatching leopard geckos a day not to forget the amount of snakes. 

Anyway a short reply to where Ron obtained his information. Ron as been breeding enigmas this year and has been studying them for any affected he is also getting results from other breeders. If you wait a while I will get a detailed reply from Ron himself.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I understand this is an emotive issue, however as many children and teenagers do use these forums, I would ask that the debate/discussion be conducted without the use of swearing / insults.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Diablo said:


> I will apologise on behalf of Ron. At the moment he his very busy with over 60+ hatching leopard geckos a day not to forget the amount of snakes.
> 
> Anyway a short reply to where Ron obtained his information. Ron as been breeding enigmas this year and has been studying them for any affected he is also getting results from other breeders. If you wait a while I will get a detailed reply from Ron himself.


Hi Paul

This is very encouraging news  If we can all pool our information it will provide the best database available for any morph I would imagine.

If Ron is putting all this together then if he wants all our information to add to any 'database' then we'd be more than happy to contribute, just let us know what format he would like it in - of course it would be good to be able to see these results too!!

This together with anything the vets etc can come up with should all help.

Cheers
Nick & Carrie


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

slimrob said:


> hi guys
> i am probably only half way through the season, however i have hatched a total of 9 siblings from 7 different clutches, 5 of which are enigma with no problems so-far. This is from enigma male to normal females, the only thing i can say this early is that the fertility of eggs has been low compared to other pairings. i have had no deformitys in the eggs, they have just not been fertile.
> i will update these figs as my season ends.
> perhaps we should request a new catagory dedicated to pooling all our findings perhaps "enigma data pool" or something on here.
> ...


We think that is a great idea and the main reason we decided to 'go first' as it were - hopefully more will respond and if they do perhaps we can set something up here on RFUK??


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## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Diablo said:


> I will apologise on behalf of Ron. At the moment he his very busy with over 60+ hatching leopard geckos a day not to forget the amount of snakes.
> 
> Anyway a short reply to where Ron obtained his information. Ron as been breeding enigmas this year and has been studying them for any affected he is also getting results from other breeders. If you wait a while I will get a detailed reply from Ron himself.


Even still, he could've been a little more constructive or even taken a little longer to compose the email!



Athravan said:


> I understand this is an emotive issue, however as many children and teenagers do use these forums, I would ask that the debate/discussion be conducted without the use of swearing / insults.


I am very sorry - i do apologise whole heartedly :blush:



slimrob said:


> hi guys
> Perhaps we should request a new catagory dedicated to pooling all our findings perhaps "enigma data pool" or something on here.
> what do you think..
> rob


What a cracking idea, :2thumb: i do know another site is doing this kind of thing.


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## slimrob (Mar 11, 2006)

sorry did not see your reply, have posted a requst for a sticky or seperate catagory already


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## Lisasgeckonursery (Feb 14, 2008)

this would be a great sticky, i'd be very interested to see your results.


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

about_a_girluk said:


> this would be a great sticky, i'd be very interested to see your results.


If the mods are happy with that then we have no problem with it!!


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## Alpha Dog (Jan 3, 2008)

I can not add much information today but will be happy to at the end of my breeding season.

The Enigma hatchings that exhibited the spinning grew into normal acting adults. its very disturbing to watch a hatchling spinning in circles chasing its tail!!mg:


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## Crownan (Jan 6, 2007)

Alpha Dog said:


> I can not add much information today but will be happy to at the end of my breeding season.
> 
> *The Enigma hatchings that exhibited the spinning grew into normal acting adults*. its very disturbing to watch a hatchling spinning in circles chasing its tail!!mg:


 
This really doesnt make it ok though. Maybe with time they learn to counter the effects?

At Hamm there were tons and tons of the enigmas circling.
Seen it at at least one of the britsh shows too


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Crownan said:


> This really doesnt make it ok though. Maybe with time they learn to counter the effects?
> 
> At Hamm there were tons and tons of the enigmas circling.
> Seen it at at least one of the britsh shows too


 
I noticed that as well, to many really !

Had a close look at my new enigma from JMG, seems ok, even had his eyes open !

My hatchling enigma (the surviving one) is still doing well, no signs of problems since he hatched, but eats everything in sight but still no nice tail, ! still, poos are fine so maybe just a slow starter.


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## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

I'm pleased that enigma breeders are placing such information out in the open for others to see, well done to all of you who've given information. 

One question though, I've been out of the loop for a while since I do not breed or own any enigmas, who is Dr Chitty? I can kinda guess that he's doing some form of research and anyone who has affected enigmas send them to Chitty? Is that right?


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## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Great info...found it very interesting


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## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Kimmy173 said:


> I'm pleased that enigma breeders are placing such information out in the open for others to see, well done to all of you who've given information.
> 
> One question though, I've been out of the loop for a while since I do not breed or own any enigmas, who is Dr Chitty? I can kinda guess that he's doing some form of research and anyone who has affected enigmas send them to Chitty? Is that right?


Dr Chitty is PS Gecko's local vet - he has a particular interest in reptiles and kindly arranged for a specialist in the Netherlands to perform the Pathology tests.


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## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

arkreptiles said:


> Dr Chitty is PS Gecko's local vet - he has a particular interest in reptiles and kindly arranged for a specialist in the Netherlands to perform the Pathology tests.


 
Thanks for the reply. It's all so interesting from a completley non-bias view, as I don't have or breed enigmas. As I said it's good to see those who recognise a problem uniting to try and sort it or at least other more aware of the problems that may be associated so they don't go in blind. :2thumb:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Hey guys what an interesting thread! 

I will be breeding enigmas myself within the next couple of years and was wondering what you guys have been doing regarding Dr Chitty - do you send living affected enigmas to him or ones that died soon after birth etc??


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