# Corn purity?



## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

How many generations does it take for a corn to be classed "pure"
Like if i bred a creamsicle back to a pure corn, at what point could following generations of offspring be declared pure?


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

imo, never. the emoryi genes would still be passed down the line after many, many generations


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

yeah i agree with above, never, a creamsicles is a creamsicle if its a direct offspring or later generations(well if its amelanistic)


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## Montage_Morphs (Jul 6, 2007)

If you introduce emoryi blood into any line, then it will forever be there. Theres no diluting it or getting rid of it. 

Simply don't breed a creamsicle into any lines you wish to keep "pure".


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Thanks, it wasn`t specifically a creamsicle i was thinking about, but in general terms. Basically anything we own then could be a hybrid, unless you know the history of the snakes dating back to when thet were first discovered? I imagine an f20 would pretty much resemble a pure?
I`ve read that more new "morphs" are being created by adding ratsnake blood, with a question mark over the "Ultra" gene, is this not a bit worrying?

So if a "fantasy" was bred with a normal, the offspring bred with anery, their offspring bred with anery etc etc the snakes from these 50 years later would still be hybrids? 
Surely there is a point where the rat blood is so diluted that its virtually not present?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

To be perfectly honest, most corn snakes are going to be SOME kind of hybrid. Whether it be grey rat (which may have donated the 'frosted' saddles some corns get - and almost certainly donated Ultra) or Emoryi (which was used in the production of the original Candy Cane amels, back when Emoryi was considered a subspecies of Elaphe guttatta)...

Yes, a 20th generation hybrid, where you cross a Corn to something else, then cross the resulting hybrid to a pure corn each generation thereafter, will look pretty much pure corn.

But if you KNOW it has X, Y or Z that isn't a corn in it... it's irresponsible to label it as a pure corn.

Which is why my personal feeling is:

I won't buy or breed a Creamsicle unless I intend to label all of its offspring as Emoryi hybrids (no matter how corn they look). 
I won't buy or breed an Ultra unless I intend to label all of its offspring as Grey Rat hybrids (no matter how corn they look). 
I won't buy or breed a Jungle unless I intend to label all of its offspring as California King hybrids (no matter how corn they look).

And really, if I'm going to have a hybrid... I want it to LOOK like one. I'd rather have/make first-generation hybrids that will quite obviously look like a blend of both parent species, not just one or the other.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> To be perfectly honest, most corn snakes are going to be SOME kind of hybrid. Whether it be grey rat (which may have donated the 'frosted' saddles some corns get - and almost certainly donated Ultra) or Emoryi (which was used in the production of the original Candy Cane amels, back when Emoryi was considered a subspecies of Elaphe guttatta)...
> .


Thanks Ssthisto, thats really along the lines of what i was asking.: victory:
So no corn is really guaranteed to be pure, and highly unlikely to be so given that at some point in every corns history its likely to have been crossed to gain the visual characteristics it has.

I suppose the difference is whether you know for sure or not.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Yup. Even a wild caught animal COULD have some other ratsnake in the woodpile somewhere.

That said, if I can get an animal where no KNOWN hybrid blood has been introduced at any point, that's as close to pure as I can reasonably ask for. And that's what I personally would want unless I were shopping for a hybrid.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

spirit975 said:


> Thanks Ssthisto, thats really along the lines of what i was asking.: victory:
> So no corn is really guaranteed to be pure, and highly unlikely to be so given that at some point in every corns history its likely to have been crossed to gain the visual characteristics it has.
> 
> I suppose the difference is whether you know for sure or not.


Given that a lot of the most sought after corn morphs appear to have a good chance of being hybrids the chance are that finding a pure corn in a few generations time will be next to impossible.


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## grannykins (Oct 9, 2006)

With all the different colour morphs now, I wonder if there will come a time when a good classic corn will be hard to get?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Probably not, since Classic is the result of breeding any two completely unrelated morphs together anyway...

But if you want to preserve a SPECIFIC classic look... you'd have to breed very carefully for it.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

grannykins said:


> With all the different colour morphs now, I wonder if there will come a time when a good classic corn will be hard to get?


If you mean classic which is het for nothing else... then they are almost impossible to get hold of now !!! If you buy two classic corns from a shop and breed them... it's certainly pot luck as to what hatchlings you are going to get.


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## Furrag (Oct 11, 2007)

Like purebred dogs, are the cost of pure corns extraordinarily high? I've seen some recently with prices fetching 3-4 figures.

Though I doubt it, do pure corn snakes have certificates like canines do, as a show of authenticity?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Furrag said:


> Like purebred dogs, are the cost of pure corns extraordinarily high? I've seen some recently with prices fetching 3-4 figures.
> 
> Though I doubt it, do pure corn snakes have certificates like canines do, as a show of authenticity?


The expensive corns are the newest genetic morphs - which may or may not mean they are pure corn.

For example, Ultramel Lavender might well be a three-or-four-figure snake... but it's strongly suspected that the Ultra component is due to Grey Rat snake influence. 

Ashy/Cinder/Anery C/Morph Z (all names for the same thing) are from Keys Corns - but is this a locality of corn, or is this a subspecies? Nobody's quite sure.

At this time, there is no real "registry" that deals with authenticity - though the ACR (American Cornsnake Registry) is trying to work through pedigree, it's not impossible for me to, say, register a pair of "het Cinder" adults that don't exist and then claim that the clutch of normal corns I am selling are the offspring of that pair (and thus 66% possible het for Cinder). Unscrupulous, yes, but not impossible. Same goes for the KC, mind you....

I would love to see "morph standards" however and see people breed towards AN ideal form (even if it might not be MY ideal form!) so that we could have a more formalised hobby instead of just "Breed for the latest and greatest and weirdest and containing as many morphs as possible..."


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

Montage_Morphs said:


> If you introduce emoryi blood into any line, then it will forever be there. Theres no diluting it or getting rid of it.
> 
> Simply don't breed a creamsicle into any lines you wish to keep "pure".


i'd say it does get diluted, but as you say you can never get rid of it.


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