# hybrid spiders ?



## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

im more off a snake n lizard guy as many off you know mad on my hybrid snakes i was just wondering if it would be possible to get hybrid T's like B.smithi x B. abop etc


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

It screws them up big style...is the long and short of it really mate, don't mean to be snappy, but thats about it : victory:


Tyler,


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## aaronsweeting (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes it is possible


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

Biggys said:


> It screws them up big style...is the long and short of it really mate, don't mean to be snappy, but thats about it : victory:
> 
> 
> Tyler,


its fine mate i was wondering if its possible as some one was saying in my local shop today they had done B.smith to G rosea


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## Biggys (Jun 6, 2010)

brian-andrews said:


> its fine mate i was wondering if its possible as some one was saying in my local shop today they had done B.smith to G rosea


Hmm...yeah I can't see the point in doing it TBH,


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## Lucybug (May 10, 2011)

brian-andrews said:


> its fine mate i was wondering if its possible as some one was saying in my local shop today they had done B.smith to G rosea


 
B.smithi x G.rosea is NOT possible, they are telling you porkys. I could sit here and explain a ton about this issue. But to keep it short and sweet,

Many spiders we see today have been hybridized at some point, But all in all, not a good idea (e.g Hysterocrates Sp, Brachypelma Sp)

Not all spiders can just be randomly selected to be cross bred, like your friend, he didnt cross breed G.rosea and B.smithi, its imposible, but if he had said B.albop and B.vegans, that is possible and belivable...


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

brian-andrews said:


> its fine mate i was wondering if its possible as some one was saying in my local shop today they had done B.smith to G rosea


to put it simply they are talking out of their behinds....unless of course the have developed some new 'stovetop' gene splicing technique

crossing Brachypelma with Grammostola by normal means is simply not possible

'the key dont fit the lock'


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## Potenton (May 24, 2010)

Here, a lot of people has done hybrid lasiodoras and acanthoscurrias
the result was slings that just don't grow nothing... 1 year feeding a lot them, a few moults, and any change on the size.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Lucybug said:


> but if he had said B.albop and B.vegans, that is possible and belivable...


and was done by some idiotic breeders back in the late 80s early 90s who just wanted to make some money

aside from the fact that we have been plagued by the lineage of these for the last 20 or so years and even now it's quite difficult to find pure lines of either species, hybrids are worthless


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> and was done by some idiotic breeders back in the late 80s early 90s who just wanted to make some money
> 
> aside from the fact that we have been plagued by the lineage of these for the last 20 or so years and even now it's quite difficult to find pure lines of either species, hybrids are worthless


thats fair enuff i dont know the bloke but offered to sell me one for £2 nearly got it but thort seems to far fetch to belive 

id love to do b.smithi x b.abop if they would surive into adult hood but if they would die or be ill its not worth it alot like royal pythons


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Tarantulas aren't snakes...


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

mcluskyisms said:


> Tarantulas aren't snakes...


i know that i was just been curios


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## voyagerxp (Aug 7, 2009)

It should never be done and even talking about doing it is frowned upone by some in the spider community.


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with being curious. But its really not worth doing. It would only confuse the species more than already, unless they cross each others territory in nature which in that case you will normally find natural gradients of the species. I may be wrong about this as I know this is the case with some other animals but I'm not sure with tarantula.

I'm sure someone can correct me here.

Anyhow its far more trouble than its worth.


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

voyagerxp said:


> It should never be done and even talking about doing it is frowned upone by some in the spider community.


fair enuff im new to keeping T's so dint not know this


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## becky89 (Nov 24, 2009)

Not directly related to your question but I really just don't see the point of trying to hybridise species. There's enough variety to choose from.


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

becky89 said:


> Not directly related to your question but I really just don't see the point of trying to hybridise species. There's enough variety to choose from.


i do and dont but the same question can be said about every other animal around about inbreeding


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

brian-andrews said:


> i do and dont but the same question can be said about every other animal around about inbreeding


True but then that is something that should be avoided too. Male and female tarantula naturally mature at different rates, quite possibly for that very reason.

Its also why I'm pretty against most colour morphs you get in the reptile hobby


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

mcluskyisms said:


> Tarantulas aren't snakes...


I'm pretty sure you're wrong there.


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

samhack said:


> True but then that is something that should be avoided too. Male and female tarantula naturally mature at different rates, quite possibly for that very reason.
> 
> Its also why I'm pretty against most colour morphs you get in the reptile hobby


im dead against "morphs" due to there health problems, 
i know males life span is much shorter then females sadly found out my b.abop is a male


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

brian-andrews said:


> im dead against "morphs" due to there health problems,
> i know males life span is much shorter then females sadly found out my b.abop is a male


Just get him a nice girly


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## firebelly (May 20, 2009)

I agree with a few comments on here it should not be done. Why would you want to cross Brachypelma with anything? They are gorgeous in their own right. This is my opinion, I don't wish to influence others but personally I see no benefit.


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## becky89 (Nov 24, 2009)

brian-andrews said:


> i do and dont but the same question can be said about every other animal around about inbreeding


Yeh that's true. Not a fan of snake hybrids either, but I do like some morphs, and would be just as happy with all normals if that's all was available. With morphs you can go too far, look at royals, must be like 500 different ones of them and god knows how many health problems are floating about. Can you imagine if it was as easy as that to breed different tarantulas, would be a mess :gasp:


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

samhack said:


> Just get him a nice girly


got one on order  hes a juvi male so got a few years yet but getting him three females


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

brian-andrews said:


> got one on order  hes a juvi male so got a few years yet but getting him three females


dont count on it lol. Our female matured from a sling in 18 months lol


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

becky89 said:


> Yeh that's true. Not a fan of snake hybrids either, but I do like some morphs, and would be just as happy with all normals if that's all was available. With morphs you can go too far, look at royals, must be like 500 different ones of them and god knows how many health problems are floating about. Can you imagine if it was as easy as that to breed different tarantulas, would be a mess :gasp:



500? more like 50000 differnt ones im not a python man never have be never will be to me its gone past pet stage and is all about one thing money ! 

thing off how many messed up animals there would be two species off top off my head cobalt blue x goliath bird eaters how messed up would it be


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

brian-andrews said:


> 500? more like 50000 differnt ones im not a python man never have be never will be to me its gone past pet stage and is all about one thing money !
> 
> thing off how many messed up animals there would be two species off top off my head cobalt blue x goliath bird eaters how messed up would it be


Cross that with a monkey and you've got yourself a facehugger


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

samhack said:


> Cross that with a monkey and you've got yourself a facehugger


in english that is ? lol


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

brian-andrews said:


> in english that is ? lol


Its a creature from the alien films.

Are the females you ordered adults? For your B.albopilosum I mean


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

samhack said:


> Its a creature from the alien films.
> 
> Are the females you ordered adults? For your B.albopilosum I mean


ahh fair enuff 

there pre-mature adults same as him and yes they are for my B.abop


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Biggys said:


> It screws them up big style...is the long and short of it really mate, don't mean to be snappy, but thats about it : victory:
> 
> 
> Tyler,


screws what up excatly?



> and was done by some idiotic breeders back in the late 80s early 90s who just wanted to make some money
> 
> aside from the fact that we have been plagued by the lineage of these for the last 20 or so years and even now it's quite difficult to find pure lines of either species, hybrids are worthless


the only real problem I see here is that people can not tell what a vagans is from all the other red rumps. with that in mind I suspect there is much more than just a albop x vagans mix in the hobby. Has it really effected the hobby anyway? not that I can see it hasn't.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Ah the old hybrid discussion...

I guess my opinion goes along the lines of such that most folks don't have a clue about arachnid genetics (as in, scientists downwards along the expertise ladder) so who am I to second guess. 

I'll leave well alone, a big, non-controlled experiment otherwise and who can guess the outcome?


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

GRB said:


> Ah the old hybrid discussion...
> 
> I guess my opinion goes along the lines of such that most folks don't have a clue about arachnid genetics (as in, scientists downwards along the expertise ladder) so who am I to second guess.
> 
> I'll leave well alone, a big, non-controlled experiment otherwise and who can guess the outcome?


well its one that always brings up problems but some times some good answers !

my oppion is that if they natural areas cross why should we not do it as it would happen in nature ! also how cute with a red kneed curly hair look :mf_dribble:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

brian-andrews said:


> well its one that always brings up problems but some times some good answers !
> 
> my oppion is that if they natural areas cross why should we not do it as it would happen in nature ! also how cute with a red kneed curly hair look :mf_dribble:


If stuart Longhorn is to be believed (and I don't see why not to be) then genecticly it probably wont work. and there is also no real evidence to say that they natuarly hybridize in nature either just estimated guess work.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> If stuart Longhorn is to be believed (and I don't see why not to be) then genecticly it probably wont work. and there is also no real evidence to say that they natuarly hybridize in nature either just estimated guess work.


If it does happen then I'd go with it being pretty rare.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I'll leave well alone, a big, non-controlled experiment otherwise and who can guess the outcome?


nothing wrong with this imo. just another aspect of the hobby to follow but pointless if you going to try completly non related genuses together.


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## firebelly (May 20, 2009)

Okay so just a scenario, if you managed to breed Brachypelma sp. together and they have approx 800 slings. 20 of those end up in pet shops and get labelled as 1 spider inparticular and not a x breed. Then those 20 are used for breeding as adults a few years down the line, what happens to the genetics then? Bearing in mind some of these are CITES protected, so there won't be any fresh bloodlines coming back into the hobby. I'm not having a go at all and don't wish this to be taken out of context, but we shouldn't play the hand of god and mess with evolution should we? (what will be, will be in nature)


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/8079993-post16.html



> true life example
> 
> person x crosses B.vagans with B.albopilosa
> 
> ...


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> Okay so just a scenario, if you managed to breed Brachypelma sp. together and they have approx 800 slings. 20 of those end up in pet shops and get labelled as 1 spider inparticular and not a x breed.


this has happened already



> Then those 20 are used for breeding as adults a few years down the line, what happens to the genetics then?


they get passed on



> Bearing in mind some of these are CITES protected, so there won't be any fresh bloodlines coming back into the hobby.


doen't mean anything of the sort and there are people legaly selling cb brachypelma out of mexico.



> I'm not having a go at all and don't wish this to be taken out of context, but we shouldn't play the hand of god and mess with evolution should we? (what will be, will be in nature)


what you mean like we have done for thousands of years with things like farm livestock etc?


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

adding to poodle's last quote.
god isn't real lolz


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> person z vagans/albo/albo x albo.....most of slings look just like albo....but aren't


heres the thing it looks like albo, behaves like an albo. If the diffences are so small you can not notice it even under a microscope then there is no problem.
you want to keep species pure then buy from people who you know have a clue where there spiders orininate from its quite simple and this works.



> who cares....people who want to make sure continuation of species in the hobby


if they care so much then they will care a whole lot about where they get their spiders.



> who doesnt care.....make your own mind up on that one


just because I do not see a big problem with hybrids in the hobby does not mean that I do not care about where I get my spiders from.



> want to be that person that helps cause the loss of a species in the hobby? i know i dont


Nobody has any right to say who or what type of person should or shouldn't be in this hobby. That the beauty of this hobby as there are many avenues to go down and follow, and if someone wants to do this just for the fun of it I have no problem with it.

If we are to be so stricked with such lines in this hobby then you have to ask all those people who breed the various avic avic complexs, red rumps some red knees/legs, som chilobrachys sp, hysterocrates sp, phampo sp, haplopelma sp. and many many more to either leave the hobby or destroy their spiders now and just get the ones you can ID easy.


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## mcluskyisms (Jan 24, 2010)

Hedgewitch said:


> I'm pretty sure you're wrong there.


You are correct, damn you...


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

some very good points granted it has made me realise hybrids are good n bad but cant say ill be doing hybrids myself but will buy them as a pet not breeder


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> Nobody has any right to say who or what type of person should or shouldn't be in this hobby. That the beauty of this hobby as there are many avenues to go down and follow, and if someone wants to do this just for the fun of it I have no problem with it.


The spider mafia might come after you saying stuff like that :gasp: I've seen it happen before now, wise guys might just find themselves out in the cold now and then... 



Baldpoodle said:


> If we are to be so stricked with such lines in this hobby then you have to ask all those people who breed the various avic avic complexs, red rumps some red knees/legs, som chilobrachys sp, hysterocrates sp, phampo sp, haplopelma sp. and many many more to either leave the hobby or destroy their spiders now and just get the ones you can ID easy.


I do believe most of them should be destroyed, unspeakable mutants and hybrids the lot of them..






and then their spiders they had been breeding could be donated to a zoo or something:lol2:


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

Oderus said:


> The spider mafia might come after you saying stuff like that :gasp: I've seen it happen before now, wise guys might just find themselves out in the cold now and then...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






as for the spiders been destroyed is that not just like seeing a x breed dog and thinking its not perfect so ill kill it .........


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## The snake (Nov 24, 2009)

Brian if they would do it in nature then surely there would be a species of its own that orignates from red knees and curly hairs ? and wouldnt this species be established by now ?


Its not just wether they can do it its about how it would affect there behaviours for example (ino its not T's) Ligers and tigons they dont like being round other cats but suffer from lonliness and depresson this is cuz tigers are solitary and lions are social. 

And ino tht R.knees and C.hairs have a few different behaviours


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## The snake (Nov 24, 2009)

and as for the dog thing dogs are all one species they share the same scientific name there one genus so this dosnt affect them like other animal cross breeds


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

The snake said:


> Brian if they would do it in nature then surely there would be a species of its own that orignates from red knees and curly hairs ? and wouldnt this species be established by now ?


maybe not between this two species as the genics are wrong and are found a long way apart from each other, but other closely related species that are found next to each other in the same habitate I do not see why not. This is probably partly how many species we see today came about in the first place.



The snake said:


> Its not just wether they can do it its about how it would affect there behaviours for example (ino its not T's) Ligers and tigons they dont like being round other cats but suffer from lonliness and depresson this is cuz tigers are solitary and lions are social.


this seems to state other wise in regards to ligers-
Liger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and this seems to suggest otherwise for a tigon as tells of shareing a cage with a tiger.
Tiglon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but it seems they both show certin trates of one species and certin ones from another yet if they suffer in anyway from this nothing is said.
Either way not much to do with spiders.



The snake said:


> And ino tht R.knees and C.hairs have a few different behaviours


Now I am very interested could you point out these few differences in behaviour and if you could please also state how the one behaviour from one would be dementral to the other species if it had it.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

The snake said:


> and as for the dog thing dogs are all one species they share the same scientific name there one genus so this dosnt affect them like other animal cross breeds


Im sorry but that is rubbish. Where as all dogs may be the same species, over the thousands of years we have kept them they have been inbred so much so as to get the different characteristics to suit different purposes this is why we have different breeds.
Now if you breed a dog with the characteristics x with a different breed of dog with characteristics z then you are more than likely going to get a dog mutt with the characteristics of x & z. 
and I find nothing wrong with this either.


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## Chino (May 6, 2011)

in my eyes, if people want to try cross breed T's and the T's can live healthily and are not disfigured then they can and possibly should, you never know we could learn something new about T's that we would of never thought of.
and as for the selling, aslong as they are labeled clearly X + Y hybrid if sold to shops or anyone and the person who buys it knows it is a hybrid and only breeds the hybrids with hybrids then i dont see a problem. unless i am missing something obvious about breeding hybrids with hybrids?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Chino said:


> in my eyes, if people want to try cross breed T's and the T's can live healthily and are not disfigured then they can and possibly should, you never know we could learn something new about T's that we would of never thought of.
> and as for the selling, aslong as they are labeled clearly X + Y hybrid if sold to shops or anyone and the person who buys it knows it is a hybrid and only breeds the hybrids with hybrids then i dont see a problem. unless i am missing something obvious about breeding hybrids with hybrids?


a high proportion of the slings will look like one or both of the parent Ts and unscrupulous breeders will try and pass them off as a species rather than hybrids, seeing as how the market for hybrid Ts is tiny in comparison with the rest of the hobby market


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## Chino (May 6, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> a high proportion of the slings will look like one or both of the parent Ts and unscrupulous breeders will try and pass them off as a species rather than hybrids, seeing as how the market for hybrid Ts is tiny in comparison with the rest of the hobby market


thats why i said aslong as they are clearly labeled as hybrids, i suppose your right seeing as this thread has alot of different views and they might not be labeled as hybrids because the majority of people frown upon it so they will be easier to sell.
im sure there are people that are interested hybrids that would want to own one, but theres alot more that disagree with them. i dont know if i was offered a hybrid if i would take it or not, i think it would be a spur of the moment decision but if i did i would only breed with the same hybrid and sell them as hybrids.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Chino said:


> thats why i said aslong as they are clearly labeled as hybrids, i suppose your right seeing as this thread has alot of different views and they might not be labeled as hybrids because the majority of people frown upon it so they will be easier to sell.
> im sure there are people that are interested hybrids that would want to own one, but theres alot more that disagree with them. i dont know if i was offered a hybrid if i would take it or not, i think it would be a spur of the moment decision *but if i did i would only breed with the same hybrid and sell them as hybrids*.


You see thats the worrying thing about it


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## Chino (May 6, 2011)

selina20 said:


> You see thats the worrying thing about it


im not trying to say they should be 'mass produced' and should be the newest in thing to buy, i would rather see what we can learn from them. i dont think hybrids should be bred with pure breeds, but if they were to be bred it should be with another of the same crossbreed.


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

Chino said:


> i would rather see what we can learn from them.


I dont understand this point?

There are new sT's being discovered regularly. There are new undescibed species hitting the market on an annual basis.

Surely, it is more fruitful to 'see what we can learn from' these before faffing about with the gene pools?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Chino said:


> im not trying to say they should be 'mass produced' and should be the newest in thing to buy, i would rather see what we can learn from them. i dont think hybrids should be bred with pure breeds, but if they were to be bred it should be with another of the same crossbreed.


it was tried some years ago and failed.
the problem is probable buyers of hybrids, who probably number single figures, aren't going to be interested in a thousand slings :lol2:

hypothetically, lets say that you (remember this is hypothetical, im not saying you would) yourself did a cross of ....lets say vagans and albopilosa.....what would you do with the 800+ slings that dont sell?
and when you breed them back to each other in 3/4 years time to try it again?

the market for the hybrids was already saturated, who'll want the second lot? and also you have approx 800 leftovers from this breeding to go with he 800 or so you couldnt sell from the last lot, which are now adult


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## Chino (May 6, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> it was tried some years ago and failed.
> the problem is probable buyers of hybrids, who probably number single figures, aren't going to be interested in a thousand slings :lol2:
> 
> hypothetically, lets say that you (remember this is hypothetical, im not saying you would) yourself did a cross of ....lets say vagans and albopilosa.....what would you do with the 800+ slings that dont sell?
> ...


i wasn't saying i would personally breed them, so i don't know what i would do in that situation, i just was trying to get the point across if they were labeled as hybrids and people stuck too calling them hybrids that it would stop them being bred with pure breeds



Lucky Eddie said:


> I dont understand this point?
> 
> There are new sT's being discovered regularly. There are new undescibed species hitting the market on an annual basis.
> 
> Surely, it is more fruitful to 'see what we can learn from' these before faffing about with the gene pools?


i dont know what we could learn from them, but there could be something?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> a high proportion of the slings will look like one or both of the parent Ts and unscrupulous breeders will try and pass them off as a species rather than hybrids, seeing as how the market for hybrid Ts is tiny in comparison with the rest of the hobby market


unscrupulous breeders are anyway selling certin "so say pure blood" as other species.
It's only tiny due to pure blood snobbery And alot of that comes from people who most probably have hybrids in their collection yet because they brought them from their new best mate on the web they must be the real deal. 



> You see thats the worrying thing about it


didn't you recently breed albops and sell them as albops? how are you sure they are 100% albop and not 99%?
Not having a go but if we are to keep to the strick pure blood rules then surely you should have sold them as possible hybrids or?



> a high proportion of the slings will look like one or both of the parent Ts and unscrupulous breeders will try and pass them off as a species rather than hybrids, seeing as how the market for hybrid Ts is tiny in comparison with the rest of the hobby market


The only reason why the market is small is because of the ridiculous stigma that is placed on them. As if they are any lesser a spider to any degree. 
I have to laugh at how its always the senario that somewhere down the line some unscrupulous seller will sell it as something else etc yet this happens anyway with your so say pure species (and I think it happens alot). Its a hobby for crying out loud not the 3rd reich and if someone wants to try it for nothing more than funs sake then the hobby has no right whats so ever to look down on that person.
If you want to keep your own collection 'pure blood' then thats fine also and it is also easy to do this with just a slight bit of thought so there is no need to slate someone elses hybrids if they have and breed them, because if you have put some slight thought into your breeding projects then it will not effect you what so ever.
So anyone got any good reasons againts them?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> hypothetically, lets say that you (remember this is hypothetical, im not saying you would) yourself did a cross of ....lets say vagans and albopilosa.....what would you do with the 800+ slings that dont sell?
> and when you breed them back to each other in 3/4 years time to try it again?
> 
> the market for the hybrids was already saturated, who'll want the second lot? and also you have approx 800 leftovers from this breeding to go with he 800 or so you couldnt sell from the last lot, which are now adult


and what happens to all those L.parabana that are breed each year?


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## The snake (Nov 24, 2009)

I think it comes down to this really.

Crossing T's is fun just to image what sort of results you could get, But it should be done with caution for example if you can get two T's from the same genus with very simaler behaviours and if your intrested in crossing then give it ago. But just be careful as to what you do with the offspring and make sure they are sold as what they are.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

The snake said:


> I think it comes down to this really.
> 
> Crossing T's is fun just to image what sort of results you could get, But it should be done with caution for example if you can get two T's from the same genus with very simaler behaviours and if your intrested in crossing then give it ago. But just be careful as to what you do with the offspring and *make sure they are sold as what they are*.


I can agree to that. Its only a stupid pure blood stigma that lets be sold as anything else.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> I can agree to that. Its only a stupid pure blood stigma that lets be sold as anything else.


thats the problem, you know yourself this doesnt happen, it's a story that's been played out before


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> thats the problem, you know yourself this doesnt happen, it's a story that's been played out before


well quite and like I say the same happens with 'pure blood' as well so you anyway have your hybrids out there like it or not. If the stupid stigma would go then the problem would lessen imo.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Hybrid avics are the one's that give me a chuckle..

You have "species" x imported from place whatever which is taken to be "pure" because it has a certain look about it, but as soon as some that don't look quite the same show up in the same import they have to be either another sympatric species from the same local or animals from another locus mixed in, no chance they could be polymorphic forms of the same species I mean you would never see Phasmids or Mantids with different colours from the same eggs...


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

If hybrids are so much fun why aren't more people doing it?
If the results are interesting how come most seem to look like one or the other of the parents, not a rich version of them. Infact from what Ive seen its a duller version. And if most hybrids are hard to tell from either pure species what is the point?

I can understand hybrids and morphs in other parts of the animal kingdom where the result is a more colourful, or patterned or missing a pigment giving us subdued colouration. But if the suggestion is that most people already have hybrids in their collection (a massive assumption) then what have we gained? What is there to suggest that was a good idea lets get some more of them.

The argument of keeping them labelled as hybrids false flat on its face IMO. Go to any exotics shop and you'll likely find Ts mislabelled or merely labelled as X. sp. There's plenty of examples in forums of people guessing their species, whether it be a pampho, avid or even a pokie a quick search will show "ID" threads. Our Ts don't get stamped with an ID, they're either from a reliable source or they're a guess.

To my mind it provides no more than to satisfy the breeder that its possible. Nobody has shown me any benefit of hybrids, but by promoting them I see the potential for me to come across more hybrids, and eventually, in an effort to maintain pure blood lines, an increase in WC specimens.

I also find it hard to digest this idea that there must be loads of hybrids in the wild. For what reason? If we look at Brachypelma we can see areas of South America specific to certain species. What we don't see is one big mish mash of the Brachypelma genus. That could be because it doesn't happen as much as is suggested or because the hybrids become a cul-de-sac species.

The reason, to my mind, that people demonise hybrids is because they see the threat to the hobby of what might be one day become our only source, where pure strains are far removed from what we have. Our CB stock will merely be identified by genus. I personally think its much better to conserve what we have than take the view the pure lines are already lost.




Oderus said:


> Hybrid avics are the one's that give me a chuckle..
> 
> You have "species" x imported from place whatever which is taken to be "pure" because it has a certain look about it, but as soon as some that don't look quite the same show up in the same import they have to be either another sympatric species from the same local or animals from another locus mixed in, no chance they could be polymorphic forms of the same species I mean you would never see Phasmids or Mantids with different colours from the same eggs...


Surely, if the Avics are merely locational differences then they are not hybrids?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> If hybrids are so much fun why aren't more people doing it?


they are no more or no less fun than your pure breeds and people are doing it without knowing it in many cases imo.


Poxicator said:


> If the results are interesting how come most seem to look like one or the other of the parents, not a rich version of them. Infact from what Ive seen its a duller version. And if most hybrids are hard to tell from either pure species what is the point?


 I have seen some intresting photos of hybrids between a few of the red leg brachys. They did not look like one or the other and did look abit like a mix. better or duller looking they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder so I would have to leave that for indivdual oppinion.


Poxicator said:


> I can understand hybrids and morphs in other parts of the animal kingdom where the result is a more colourful, or patterned or missing a pigment giving us subdued colouration. But if the suggestion is that most people already have hybrids in their collection (a massive assumption) then what have we gained? What is there to suggest that was a good idea lets get some more of them.


Not such a big assumption when looking at all those hard to tell species from genuses where the papers are next to useless. imo the massive assumptions are made when people are so sure they are the same based on the looks, or are you going to tell me that the average hobbyist looks at the fine details under a mircoscope or sends them out to get looked at?



Poxicator said:


> The argument of keeping them labelled as hybrids false flat on its face IMO. Go to any exotics shop and you'll likely find Ts mislabelled or merely labelled as X. sp. There's plenty of examples in forums of people guessing their species, whether it be a pampho, avid or even a pokie a quick search will show "ID" threads.


which is why there are hybrids in the hobby anyway.:whistling2:


Poxicator said:


> Our Ts don't get stamped with an ID, they're either from a reliable source or they're a guess.


 and if they are from a reliable source they is no problem to keep them pure is there. It only take a little forward think on your own part.



Poxicator said:


> To my mind it provides no more than to satisfy the breeder that its possible. Nobody has shown me any benefit of hybrids, but by promoting them I see the potential for me to come across more hybrids, and eventually, in an effort to maintain pure blood lines, an increase in WC specimens.


 any breeding pure or hybrid is no more than to satisfy the breeder that it is possible. Sure there are no real benefits yet there are no real benefits of just pure blood either. I think you missunderstand what I am saying in my post at least because I am not promoting them more like just accepting them as anothe part of this hobby. Like I said with the forward thinking in regards to breeding, to maintain the pure bloods lines would be no harder than they are today.



Poxicator said:


> I also find it hard to digest this idea that there must be loads of hybrids in the wild. For what reason? If we look at Brachypelma we can see areas of South America specific to certain species. What we don't see is one big mish mash of the Brachypelma genus.


If I remember right the red legs are sperated by natural boarders but the red rumps can be found over lapping in some places. If hybrids have been found I do not know but I see know reason to think that it does not ever ocour and would be very suprised to find that some described species (i don't just mean brachys here) are nothing more than a hybrid between the two other exsisting species.


Poxicator said:


> That could be because it doesn't happen as much as is suggested or because the hybrids become a cul-de-sac species.


or your single found hybrid colony was described as a species.


Poxicator said:


> The reason, to my mind, that people demonise hybrids is because they see the threat to the hobby of what might be one day become our only source, where pure strains are far removed from what we have. Our CB stock will merely be identified by genus. I personally think its much better to conserve what we have than take the view the pure lines are already lost.


All you are truely conserveing with many are just hopes and maybes they are the same species.
I say again all it takes is forward thinking and planing not much and not hard to do if people feel so very strongly abit their stock.






Poxicator said:


> Surely, if the Avics are merely locational differences then they are not hybrids?


ah but still bad in your book as earlier did you not mean that you do not understand the mixing of morphs in the tarantula hobby?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

But its an assumption to consider that because something is sold as X. sp that people will want to, or more to the point achieve, breeding success with them. Hell, most of us seem to have a hard enough job getting ID'd tarantula to a successful breeding.

My interpretation is that you are, and have done before, promoting hybrids. Not only by suggesting that there's nothing wrong with them, but by suggesting maintaining the blood lines is "snobbery". You paint a picture that the hobby is riddled with them, but that assumes people have had successful breeding. I wouldn't argue that there are attempts at breeding hybrids unknowingly (Theraphosa is a prime example) but I would be interested to know the results.


Tarantula morphs? locational forms I guess is what you are referring to. Now, this is a subject I have varying views on. P. subfusca is a prime example, we have highland and lowland and from what Ive seen these look different, I'd have an uneducated guess these were 2 different species but not recognised as such if it weren't for the fact Peter Kirk tells me they're not. So, whilst the science behind these continues I'd prefer to keep them separate. The colour forms of P. murinus were mixed by Chris Carter. His experience showed a mixture of both parents, nothing special, just satisfied his curiosity. I'm not sure that was a good decision but hey! And of course Avics, well Ive heard your arguments concerning these, and Ive listened to Colin & Elaine's argument with these, and subsequently Ive almost given up breeding them. Im of the opinion many of these are the same species, just locational variance, so I argue with myself as to why 1 metallica should not be mated with another despite size differences. But I also argue to keep large and small form versicolor separated.


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm not supporting the idea of cross breeding but in some animals, such as snakes, obvious colour and pattern change/variation isn't seen until 2 or 3 generation of breeding the hybrids together. I know Ts aren't snakes but I just thought i would throw that in.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> But its an assumption to consider that because something is sold as X. sp that people will want to, or more to the point achieve, breeding success with them. Hell, most of us seem to have a hard enough job getting ID'd tarantula to a successful breeding.


well no not really as we know many species of avic, psalmopeus, pokie, brachy and more well interbreed and as there are so many same looking but different species out there I do not wonder for a moment that there are a good number of hybrids out there already. 


Poxicator said:


> My interpretation is that you are, and have done before, promoting hybrids. Not only by suggesting that there's nothing wrong with them, but by suggesting maintaining the blood lines is "snobbery".


No I do not suggest the maintaining of blood lines is just snobbery. I suggest that the people who say that there is not need or place for hybrids, and try to outcast those who do this are just being snobbery. If your interpretation of me saying that there is no problem with them is classed as promoting them then I am please I do not fall into the in my eyes, snobbish type of attitude that others have for for them. Just because you or some others do not want them does not give you or others the right to diss or make the people who like the them to feel (for no good reason) like they are destroying the hobby because they are not.


Poxicator said:


> You paint a picture that the hobby is riddled with them, but that assumes people have had successful breeding. I wouldn't argue that there are attempts at breeding hybrids unknowingly (Theraphosa is a prime example) but I would be interested to know the results.


not just me though who paints this picture, didn't someone else mention that they would never buy an albopilosum or vagans again? 
I would take bets on the many avic complexes, hystocrates etc that quite often get bred. I do not disagree that many if not most are unsucessful much the same like your so called correctly ID tarantulas, as some just will not be compatable even if they are in the same genus, but because we know that many are compatable your argument kind of backfires mainly because in the main people do not often know 100% if they are mating the same species or not alot of the time. I am well aware thankyou this is not the case all of the time however.



Poxicator said:


> Tarantula morphs? locational forms I guess is what you are referring to.


I used the term morphs because this is the term you used in post number 65 http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/spiders-inverts/709430-hybrid-spiders-7.html#post8460031
I took by this, that you ment locational forms/varrients due to the subject matter and that you don't understand the mixing of them in the tarantula hobby. I guess you ment something else then in you post so what was your use of the term morphs refering to?
and yes you guessed right as to what I was referring to as you very well know.



Poxicator said:


> Now, this is a subject I have varying views on. P. subfusca is a prime example, we have highland and lowland and from what Ive seen these look different, I'd have an uneducated guess these were 2 different species but not recognised as such if it weren't for the fact Peter Kirk tells me they're not. So, whilst the science behind these continues I'd prefer to keep them separate.


so if later on they are found to be conclusively the same no problem for you to breed together then?


Poxicator said:


> The colour forms of P. murinus were mixed by Chris Carter. His experience showed a mixture of both parents, nothing special, just satisfied his curiosity. I'm not sure that was a good decision but hey!


so what happened to all the offspring? did they get put into the hobby and marked up as mixed colour forms? When you say "but hey" do you mean you are quite ok for this practice then?


Poxicator said:


> And of course Avics, well Ive heard your arguments concerning these, and Ive listened to Colin & Elaine's argument with these, and subsequently Ive almost given up breeding them.


Not heard Colin & Elaine's (who ever they are?) argument so can you enlighten us? 
Even if many of the avic colour forms do end up to be the same species I still think that many will not. If I look at a different genus for example the minax complex of haplopelma, there are many species that look almost identical untill you look at the very taxomical fine details like the number of spines on the legs (amoung others), that you can only see under a microscope, so to the average hobbist they look very much the same. In cases like this if a successful breeding does come off its very possible that its another batch of hybrids in the hobby. You can apply this to so many genera. Who was that bloke who was very keen on Pamphobeteus but he was ending up with just lots of adult females that all had slight differences, and could not match males to them and be totally accurate? 



Poxicator said:


> Im of the opinion many of these are the same species, just locational variance, so I argue with myself as to why 1 metallica should not be mated with another despite size differences. But I also argue to keep large and small form versicolor separated.


so you are saying its ok for some species but not for another? or are you saying you do not know or can not decied for yourself on an oppinion?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

> didn't someone else mention that they would never buy an albopilosum or vagans again?
> I would take bets on the many avic complexes, hystocrates etc that quite often get bred. I do not disagree that many if not most are unsucessful much the same like your so called correctly ID tarantulas


that would have been me...but i actually said 'unless i am sure of the source'

i'm adept at keying them out, so unless i was sure they were the same species i wouldnt attempt them again or Hysterocrates....but Avics arent really my thing so not an issue with me.

As for your point about hybrids occuring in the wild.....maybe they do, or maybe they dont.
I studied Evolutionary biology as one of my degrees and that came up, but whether it is down to evolutionary change due to environment as a species range moves from its point of origin, or whether it is hybridization of species is open for debate, as all science is. there are probably both...but my opinion is of the Darwin school of thought.

each to their own, as long as it's not going to affect me down the line


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

Hybrid spider threads never last this long lol! This has been the longest one I have seen.... :O


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> that would have been me...but i actually said 'unless i am sure of the source'
> 
> i'm adept at keying them out, so unless i was sure they were the same species i wouldnt attempt them again or Hysterocrates....but Avics arent really my thing so not an issue with me.
> 
> ...


This is why I see no problem with the hybrid situation if people like yourself only buy if they are sure of the source.

I also only said its possible and give an example as to why it could be. I have never stuidied for a degree in anything but would have to say, based on all the stuff I have read about evoloutioary change (which aint alot) it is quite probable that it is a mixture of all those things and more that we don't understand.

It shouldn't effect you down the line if you source you spiders right and do that little bit of forward planing when it comes to breeding.

I honesty think the only real problem comes from the stigma that is placed on them.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

the thing is, the stigma only came about because of hybrid slings being sold as a validated species when they didnt sell, as the market for them as hybrids was so small


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

not so sure about that one because that could be said of a lot of pure species as well. H. hercules comes to mind among others. Maybe its just the word hybrid that puts people off rather than the spider itself.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

> I used the term morphs because this is the term you used in post number 65 hybrid spiders ?


I believe my use of the term "morphs" was attributed to "other parts of the animal kingdom".



> so if later on they are found to be conclusively the same no problem for you to breed together then?


Difficult question to answer for a number of reasons but I'd probably keep them separate because the locational differences justify maintaining IMO.




> so what happened to all the offspring? did they get put into the hobby and marked up as mixed colour forms? When you say "but hey" do you mean you are quite ok for this practice then?


sold off as P. murinus slings I believe. I let Chris know its not something I would have done, but its rather a lost cause.



> so you are saying its ok for some species but not for another? or are you saying you do not know or can not decied for yourself on an opinion?


What I'm saying is there are too any arguments with Avics for me to consider most breeding. As an example I had intended to breed A. sp. kwitara only to find that each import has shown differences in size and colour, so even sourcing a WC male is no guarantee to not mixing them. If you remember rightly you also questioned me on an A. metallica that was a result of breeding through Alex Smith and myself. I don't intend to get more Avics with the exception of the following for breeding: A. versicolor, A. diversipes and A. peru purple.


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> I don't intend to get more Avics with the exception of the following for breeding: A. versicolor, A. diversipes and A. peru purple.


I'm surprised you have limited the Avic genus down to just three species which you feel you could breed safe in the fact that they are easily distinguished from others in the group Pete? ..... what about A.laeta, A.jurensis and A.minatrix amongst others?
-P


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

sorry Paul, it wasnt my intention to include the full range of Avics that can be distinguished, it was merely a list of those that I now have in my collection, but you have reminded me of A. minatrix which I should also include.
In truth I don't have much success with breeding Avics.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> I believe my use of the term "morphs" was attributed to "other parts of the animal kingdom".


so if your use of the term morphs has nothing to do with spiders why bring it up? what do mean by morphs then if not variations in size/colour or location and the like?



Poxicator said:


> Difficult question to answer for a number of reasons but I'd probably keep them separate because the locational differences justify maintaining IMO.


sure keeping a colour form pure is intresting and one could say important in its own right, I agree but still no harm done if some are mixed also.


Poxicator said:


> sold off as P. murinus slings I believe. I let Chris know its not something I would have done, but its rather a lost cause.


rather like myself in your eyes then I bet.


Poxicator said:


> What I'm saying is there are too any arguments with Avics for me to consider most breeding. As an example I had intended to breed A. sp. kwitara only to find that each import has shown differences in size and colour, so even sourcing a WC male is no guarantee to not mixing them. .


thinking ahead see this is why I think its important if you truely want to keep stock as pure blood as possible.


Poxicator said:


> If you remember rightly you also questioned me on an A. metallica that was a result of breeding through Alex Smith and myself. I don't intend to get more Avics with the exception of the following for breeding: A. versicolor, A. diversipes and A. peru purple.


can't remember if I did or didn't but as you bring it up what did you sell the slings on as?
strange you bring up versicolour as breeding with such a pure blood perspictive as yours, what with so many large and small form, so say have being mixed in the past and with you also saying how we should keep them seperate as well. naughty naughty!
and peru purple is a good one as well imho seen alot of clearly different looking spiders sold with name.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

no slings were produced, didnt seek any other breeders.

I keep large and small form separate. Both my matings have been separate.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> no slings were produced, didnt seek any other breeders.
> 
> I keep large and small form separate. Both my matings have been separate.


new imports come in at last then. got to see the comparisen photos now not seen any for years.


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

If you had have asked me 3 years ago about my opinion of hybrid spiders you would have received quite a standard "stock" response in the vain of keeping species/colour forms pure blah blah blah (mostly fuelled by buying 2 P. smithi which turned out to be crossbreeds). 

Nowadays, save for very few exceptions, I really couldn't care less to be honest. If I like a spider, then I like it regardless of genetics/bloodline history.

The tarantula "stamp" collecting attitude which I used to hold so dearly eventually became tantamount to an obsession which essentially almost completely destroyed my near 19 year old involvement in the hobby - 
I'm only just now starting to regain any significant level of interest.

Now if I see a green avic for sale which happens to stem from 2 slightly different species of green avic then I'm still going to enjoy it either way.


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## peterparker (Nov 11, 2010)

Bexzini said:


> Hybrid spider threads never last this long lol! This has been the longest one I have seen.... :O


:lol2: that's the joy of hybrid spider threads.....you never know what you're gonna get:lol2: next time it'll have 2 heads:2thumb:


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## brian-andrews (May 20, 2011)

peterparker said:


> :lol2: that's the joy of hybrid spider threads.....you never know what you're gonna get:lol2: next time it'll have 2 heads:2thumb:


ive seen one with 18 legs before :lol2:

i dint realise this would get such a big respon


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## peterparker (Nov 11, 2010)

brian-andrews said:


> ive seen one with 18 legs before :lol2:
> 
> i dint realise this would get such a big respon


A hybrid hybrid thread :lol2:
IMO I'm not for hybrids (just personal pref) but if it's what floats your boat and doesn't hurt me then knock yourself out, but I have to say I would not be a happy bunny when paying for one sp. and getting another albeit a mix, but that's more down to I wouldn't have ordered that particular spider if I didn't want that particular spider, if by chance I got one I'd probably play holy hell, call them a few choice names and then continue to love it like the others I have, as a pet I guess hybrids have their place, as a breeder/pet then most I think would prefer to be sure or as near to sure as you can be without getting the electron MS out that they had the right sp. there will always people who like to dabble (look at some of the dog x you can get now - labradoodle!!!) alot of hybrid breeding is about making a fashionable/user friendly product and it appears to be the same where spiders are concerned, pretty = cash and although not for me some people like them.


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## mikeyb (May 8, 2011)

i breed malawi and hybrids are really seriously frowned on as the fish only exist in lake malawi so any hybrids will just ruin any chance of restocking should something happen similar to lake victoria in africa. my opinion of it is were not mother nature let her choose the path of evolution not us. i totally disagree with the snake morph thing i got burned the other day for daring to put a post about it but how many underlying health issues are there u look at spider ball pythons with head wobble thats a man made defect. so in short leave well alone just enjoy your animals mother nature gave you.

P.s isnt there a chance by hybridising spiders of producing something highly agressive and potentially more venomous. like crossing a mamba with a gaboon viper the potential for something really vile lol


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## Bexzini (Oct 21, 2010)

peterparker said:


> :lol2: that's the joy of hybrid spider threads.....you never know what you're gonna get:lol2: next time it'll have 2 heads:2thumb:


Haha this reminded me of the 'life is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get' saying :no1:

Seriously last thread on this was about 5 posts long and GRB or someone closed it lmao


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## samhack (Jan 11, 2009)

mikeyb said:


> i breed malawi and hybrids are really seriously frowned on as the fish only exist in lake malawi so any hybrids will just ruin any chance of restocking should something happen similar to lake victoria in africa. my opinion of it is were not mother nature let her choose the path of evolution not us. i totally disagree with the snake morph thing i got burned the other day for daring to put a post about it but how many underlying health issues are there u look at spider ball pythons with head wobble thats a man made defect. so in short leave well alone just enjoy your animals mother nature gave you.
> 
> P.s isnt there a chance by hybridising spiders of producing something highly agressive and potentially more venomous. like crossing a mamba with a gaboon viper the potential for something really vile lol


I totally agree with you and have always had that view on snake morphs. Its plain wrong and messes with a perfectly healthy species which is just as beautiful in its natural form. I have no respect at all for the breeders and they just treat their animals as objects to get rich from abusing. Saying that the real problem is the idiots who will pay over 10k for them.


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## naturechris (Apr 23, 2009)

samhack said:


> I totally agree with you and have always had that view on snake morphs. Its plain wrong and messes with a perfectly healthy species which is just as beautiful in its natural form. I have no respect at all for the breeders and they just treat their animals as objects to get rich from abusing. Saying that the real problem is the idiots who will pay over 10k for them.


jeez dont say any of this on the snake forum, they will go mental..seriously they will try to gang rape you


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

mikeyb said:


> i breed malawi and hybrids are really seriously frowned on as the fish only exist in lake malawi so any hybrids will just ruin any chance of restocking should something happen similar to lake victoria in africa


where as I can kind of see your point with the fish example, I can't however see how it can comply with spiders as trying to reintroduce an animal and one where the normal population is quite unknown could prove to do more harm than good.


mikeyb said:


> my opinion of it is were not mother nature let her choose the path of evolution not us.


do you own a dog or cat? do you eat meat or enjoy milk on your cornflakes? If the answer is yes to any of these and more examples like these then don't thank mother nature too fast because man has been responsible for much specific breeding and hybrid breeding (not only in animals) so as to provide much of this.
.[/QUOTE] i totally disagree with the snake morph thing i got burned the other day for daring to put a post about it but how many underlying health issues are there u look at spider ball pythons with head wobble thats a man made defect. so in short leave well alone just enjoy your animals mother nature gave you..[/QUOTE]
Snake morphs are not hybrids though are they? They are the results of selective breeding to get different trats very much in the same way as pedagree dog/cat and other animal breeding. the defects that arrive are from the small gene pool used to get these morphs more than anything else.


mikeyb said:


> P.s isnt there a chance by hybridising spiders of producing something highly agressive and potentially more venomous. like crossing a mamba with a gaboon viper the potential for something really vile lol


 maybe if they are created in Dr Frankensteins lab but in the simple hobby situation I would say not.



> I totally agree with you and have always had that view on snake morphs. Its plain wrong and messes with a perfectly healthy species which is just as beautiful in its natural form. I have no respect at all for the breeders and they just treat their animals as objects to get rich from abusing. Saying that the real problem is the idiots who will pay over 10k for them.


Cruffs, Bath and West show, Horse racing, is all along the same kind of lines where alot of emphises is put on pedigrees. Everyone has their own view on what they like in an animal and will breed it to get the trates they seak. When I think about it this is all you are doing when you want to keep a species pure also.


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