# Black ball (super cinny) x BluEL( pref russo or mojave) has it been done?



## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

Have thes etwo supers been bred before, the all white leucistic and the black ball!:gasp:?


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

If it has I'd love to see the out come!


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## jnr (Jan 1, 2009)

paulibabes said:


> If it has I'd love to see the out come!


Think you would get a 100% clutch of Cinny mojaves..No normals..If a pair of cinny mojave were bred back then it would be possible I guess to get a clutch incl 8 balls & leucys..You can do this using cinny/black pastel x fire also, not sure on the odds..been thinking along the lines of 8 balls but you still need two copies of each gene to produce seperate super forms..might be totaly wrong mind you lol!


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

jnr said:


> Think you would get a 100% clutch of Cinny mojaves..No normals..If a pair of cinny mojave were bred back then it would be possible I guess to get a clutch incl 8 balls & leucys..You can do this using cinny/black pastel x fire also, not sure on the odds..been thinking along the lines of 8 balls but you still need two copies of each gene to produce seperate super forms..might be totaly wrong mind you lol!



Would of been my first guess! Just would be awesome if you got some sort of an all black/white snake from a super BluEL x Black ball.:2thumb:


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

50% cinny het russo
50% cinny mojave

chance per egg...


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## Wills (Sep 10, 2009)

be cool to see a supper black cinny pied though :whistling2:


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

alan1 said:


> 50% cinny het russo
> 50% cinny mojave
> 
> chance per egg...


wicked, but I want to see pictures of supers of super crosses! .


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

Wills said:


> be cool to see a supper black cinny pied though :whistling2:


pandapied is virtually identical...


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

paulibabes said:


> wicked, but I want to see pictures of supers of super crosses! .


huh? no supers mate... see my 1st post

mojave x cinny is halfway down this link (wont let me copy pic)

Ball Python Morphs Proven / Unproven


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

well what would you get with a mojave cinny x mojave cinny then?


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

i would guess a solid coloured, feint grey animal...


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

alan1 said:


> i would guess a solid coloured, feint grey animal...


Really? What about the eyes then? I mean could you get a blue eyed snake that looks like a black ball from them?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

paulibabes said:


> Really? What about the eyes then? I mean could you get a blue eyed snake that looks like a black ball from them?


What, you mean a Leucistic with the ducky-face?

Yes, probably.

You wouldn't get a blue-eyed black snake because Leucism is the result of the *absence* of skin melanin and the extreme reduction of ocular melanin.

I suspect that leucism would override the solid black colour, and you'd wind up with a blue-eyed white snake that will always throw (BluEL ingredient)+Cinnamon offspring.


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> What, you mean a Leucistic with the ducky-face?
> 
> Yes, probably.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is that white beats black haha!


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Just saying that traits that *erase* colour tend to override traits that *increase* colour. 

For example, a super lesser albino is two-toned white (because leucism subtracts the yellow from the pattern but leaves a sort of translucent / opaque patterning) with red eyes (because albinism subtracts black).


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

but wouldn't it darken if then bred with cinny in it?


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

lesser cinnamon...










looks like the single cinny gene is stronger than the lesser
but would the leucistic (super lesser) be more powerful than the totally black (super cinny) snake?
only time will tell i guess


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

paulibabes said:


> but wouldn't it darken if then bred with cinny in it?


Not necessarily, if the Leucism gene breaks the way skin pigmentation is laid down *before* Cinnamon has a chance to change the pattern to erase the lighter gold side patterning and suffuse the areas that would have yellow patterning with black instead.

All of these morphs work by "breaking" normal processes - imagine an assembly line, where the animal's whole body is created. If all of the paired assembly-line machines are working as normal, you get a normal royal python. If one or more of the paired machines isn't working correctly, you get something that isn't - like the adverts for the Xsara Picassa.

And if one process in the assembly line means that another couple of machines never get turned on at all.... then you get "masking" traits. 

Another way to think of it is like having a paint by numbers.

Your normal paint by numbers creates a picture that looks like what's on the box - you've got all the paints, you've got the lines drawn on the paper, and all those things go together to make a normal royal python.

Cinnamon gives you paints that are not quite the right colour - they're browner, less gold - and redraws the lines on the paper a bit too. Super cinnamon throws out the yellow paint entirely, gives you lots of extra brown, and gives you a piece of paper with a wonky corner, too.

Lesser gives you a more golden and light set of paints - you don't get the dark brown in this set - and might well give you different lines. But Super Lesser hides all but the smallest drop of black, and doesn't draw the lines on the paper either. 

I suspect that the combination of Super Cinnamon and Super Lesser (or any of the solid-white combinations on the White Snake Complex) would hide all your paints, erase all the lines AND have a wonky corner to boot.... especially given that so far as we know, Lesser Pied is a solid white snake with dark eyes too.



alan1 said:


> lesser cinnamon...
> looks like the single cinny gene is stronger than the lesser


Now, you see, I look at the Cinnamon Lesser and it looks VERY "Lesser with a Cinnamonish pattern" to me


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Not necessarily, if the Leucism gene breaks the way skin pigmentation is laid down *before* Cinnamon has a chance to change the pattern to erase the lighter gold side patterning and suffuse the areas that would have yellow patterning with black instead.
> 
> All of these morphs work by "breaking" normal processes - imagine an assembly line, where the animal's whole body is created. If all of the paired assembly-line machines are working as normal, you get a normal royal python. If one or more of the paired machines isn't working correctly, you get something that isn't - like the adverts for the Xsara Picassa.
> 
> ...


Ah thanks! Yes this helps loads!.. I think... So how do I get a BluEL with visual tints of a green ghost/whatever on it?


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

:2thumb:Well it's all helping so far, as I think I'm asking the right questions now.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

paulibabes said:


> Ah thanks! Yes this helps loads!.. I think... So how do I get a BluEL with visual tints of a green ghost/whatever on it?


If the scales are "ghost" coloured... it, by definition, cannot be a Leucistic (of any eye colour).

Leucistic is from the greek Leukos meaning "white". A blue-eyed leucistic has *white* scales.

If you're looking for a way to make a blue-eyed snake that isn't mostly or completely white... I don't think there have been any genes discovered in royals YET that only affect eye colour.


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> If the scales are "ghost" coloured... it, by definition, cannot be a Leucistic (of any eye colour).
> 
> Leucistic is from the greek Leukos meaning "white". A blue-eyed leucistic has *white* scales.
> 
> If you're looking for a way to make a blue-eyed snake that isn't mostly or completely white... I don't think there have been any genes discovered in royals YET that only affect eye colour.



Soul suckers tend to have sea green eyes, and champagnes black just like a black eyed leucistic...

Well anyway when I get my russo and mojave pair I'm going to try like a mad scientist to get some new morphs that havn't been done .. I hope.

While we're playing mind F**k, I seen a REAL woma ball python yep woma x royal, Stunning! Would it be infertile though? Or give birth to retards?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

paulibabes said:


> Soul suckers tend to have sea green eyes, and champagnes black just like a black eyed leucistic...


But none of those are mutations that ONLY affect eye colour. They affect the whole animal. 

A Soulsucker has light-coloured eyes because it's a combination morph with several factors "breaking" the normal royal python eye colour. 

If you wanted a morph that *doesn't* have blue eyes as a result of its mutation to have blue eyes, you'd have to discover a gene that *only* affects eye colour.



> I seen a REAL woma ball python yep woma x royal, Stunning! Would it be infertile though? Or give birth to retards?


"Wall" pythons, yes, they're interesting beasties. No idea if they'd be infertile (snake hybrids that produce viable offspring are quite frequently turning out to be fertile) but there's no reason why they'd be more likely to produce offspring that are outright defective if they WERE fertile.


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

Ah, I see! So could you possibly find out by breeding fire BlackELs to BluELs.. Some how?


That's what I thought about the walls!: victory:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Again, Fire affects pattern and colour in both heterozygous and homozygous forms - it is not just an eye-colour trait. Black-eyed Leucistics are by default white snakes (sometimes/often with yellow patching) with dark eyes - there's no way to separate the homozygous-fire black eye colour from the homozygous-fire partial to total white body scalation.

What you are looking for sounds something more like "blue eyes" in humans - a trait that doesn't affect skin colour or pattern *at all*, only eye colour.


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> Again, Fire affects pattern and colour in both heterozygous and homozygous forms - it is not just an eye-colour trait. Black-eyed Leucistics are by default white snakes (sometimes/often with yellow patching) with dark eyes - there's no way to separate the homozygous-fire black eye colour from the homozygous-fire partial to total white body scalation.
> 
> What you are looking for sounds something more like "blue eyes" in humans - a trait that doesn't affect skin colour or pattern *at all*, only eye colour.



I see! Ah common sense really... This is why we should A. Do our homework and B. Think harder! Haha!


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## louodge (Sep 26, 2008)

im pretty sure if you put a 

cinny mojave x cinny mojave you will have a possibility of fully black or fully white you dont get a visual mix of the two super forms


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

louodge said:


> im pretty sure if you put a
> 
> cinny mojave x cinny mojave you will have a possibility of fully black or fully white you dont get a visual mix of the two super forms


You could do, since Cinnamon and Mojave do not exist on the same gene pair.

Therefore you could get a homozygous Cinnamon homozygous Mojave (although I'm arguing it's likely to be a white snake with light-coloured eyes).


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

only time will tell:2thumb:


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## louodge (Sep 26, 2008)

Ssthisto said:


> You could do, since Cinnamon and Mojave do not exist on the same gene pair.
> 
> Therefore you could get a homozygous Cinnamon homozygous Mojave (although I'm arguing it's likely to be a white snake with light-coloured eyes).


 
Sorry i diddent make myself fully clear and i totally agree with you on them not existing on the same gene pair.what i meant was it seems that once a morph becomes homozygous (leucistic) whether it be lesser/butter, mojave or fire. blue or black eyed. It seems to not show any other colour or pattern from what ever morph.

so theoreticly the blue eyed lucy you would get from pairing Cinnamon-Mojave x Cinnamon-Mojave could be both homozygous for both genes but only visually looklike a super mojave. the only way to find out would be to put a normal accross it and if the offspring were 100% Cinnamon-Mojave then you know it was homozygous for both genes.

I hope you see what i am saying???? :lol2:


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## paulibabes (Jan 6, 2008)

louodge said:


> Sorry i diddent make myself fully clear and i totally agree with you on them not existing on the same gene pair.what i meant was it seems that once a morph becomes homozygous (leucistic) whether it be lesser/butter, mojave or fire. blue or black eyed. It seems to not show any other colour or pattern from what ever morph.
> 
> so theoreticly the blue eyed lucy you would get from pairing Cinnamon-Mojave x Cinnamon-Mojave could be both homozygous for both genes but only visually looklike a super mojave. the only way to find out would be to put a normal accross it and if the offspring were 100% Cinnamon-Mojave then you know it was homozygous for both genes.
> 
> I hope you see what i am saying???? :lol2:


Yes mate I understand that!:no1:.

So what if you bred another dominant morph with a leucistic?: victory:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

You'd get babies who were all one or the other half of the leucistic, and depending on whether the dominant trait was homozygous or heterozygous, you might get all of that morph, or on average half.

For example:

Heterozygous-Pinstripe X Lesser/Mojave BluEL:

25% Mojave
25% Jigsaw (Pin Mojave)
25% Lesser
25% Kingpin (Pin Lesser)

Homozygous-Pinstripe X Lesser/Mojave BluEL:
50% Jigsaw
50% Kingpin


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