# Dart Frog Live Viv Build Thread



## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Hellooo,

Thought I would start my own thread on here, rather than hijacking soundstounite's amazing thread with all my questions. I'm planning on get some dart frogs later on this year, and have 101 questions about the tank and their general care.

I'm reading up as much as I can about their care and tank set-up and here's where I'm at currently;

I picked up the tank yesterday, an Exo-Terra 24"x18"x18" which is equal to about 30 gallons I think, and an Exo-Terra monsoon misting system as well so that I can automate the misting. (Means if I have a lie-in on a saturday I'm not going to end up with dry frogs ). A friend of mine affectionately refers to Exo-Terra products as "Exo-Terrible" but for what I want, it seems the most appropriate; vented, front-opening etc.

I would desperately love to do a custom background on the tank, ideally with a drip wall, so what I'm planning is (with the help of the other half) to use expanding foam alongside pebbles and pieces of slate to create a (hopefully) natural-looking wall, and then use a thin piece of irrigation hosing along the top with low water pressure so that the water trickles down the wall, over the decor and down onto the soil. Obviously we'll be gluing substrate over the expanding foam as well, and I'm hoping to mount little plant pots / seed pods in the wall too so little plants can grow up it and it will create little water pools when the water gathers in the seed pods. Can anyone offer any advice/wisdom regards this?

Once we've got the background sorted, we're planning on using clay balls along the bottom, a layer of mesh, and then the substrate; which we're thinking about a mix of plantation soil and orchid bark?

We'll be planting our live plants into the wall and into the soil at the bottom, and we'll hopefully have lots of little hides, ferns, moss, bromeliads and probably a parlour palm in one corner as I already have one in the house which is doing great.

Then we'll establish our tropical woodlice and springtail community, and once we've had the whole tank running for a couple of months and everything is nicely established and in a routine, got all our temps right and humidity and so on, then we'll start looking for frogs.

Frog wise, I have always loved tinctorius, but we're open to all species really; we want something that is hardy, long-lived and a good species to start with as we're beginners when it comes to frogs. I'm hoping to keep around 2-3 adults in the tank; I want them to have sufficient room to move around and not be stressed though.

I think that's about it for now, I will no doubt be asking more questions as they come to me, and posting lots of pictures of our progress.

Exciting times ahead! :2thumb:


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Sounds like a decent plan so far. I've got the same Exo with leucs in and it's a great size for the 3 of them. Before you start with backgrounds and whatnot you're going to have to mod the Exo to make it suitable. The best and most permanent way is to replace at least the 2 of the 4 mesh panels with glass to help keep humidity in. Personally I've used perspex (not under the lights for obvious reasons) and it's served me well although expect a bit of warping. I only opted for this combo because a) I won the tank in the BAKS raffle (cheap plug) and b) I had some perspex kicking around and I'm too cheap to buy glass.

You could also do with modding the doors and the vent under them to stop fly escapes. A length of airline tubing cut in two so you have two half moon pieces and then slipped over the edges of the door that meets the frame will minimise escapes. Some folk silicone in to the vent under the door but that knackers airflow. You can get something called noseeum mesh (the stuff that you get in Halloween masks that you can see out of but folk can't see in). If you remove the black plastic trim you can put the mesh in there, that way you still have airflow but less chance of your feeders getting out. In honesty that last mod is a bit like overkill because the amount of flies I have escape is minimal even with unmodified vents.

I'm not familiar with the monsoon but in honesty hand misting works fine with one tank. I've gone away for a weekend and the person I've borrowed to mist my tanks has forgotten to come round and my frogs have coped. A lay in certainly won't hurt them. My tricolors are happy at normal room humidity for short spells with no ill effects so not all darts need to be at constantly high humidity.

What tincs are you interested in? Bear in mind some (i.e the ones that Stu sells that you can ride to work on) will benefit more from 60cm height instead of 45cm so take that in to account before making a choice on what to get. Leucs may be bandied about as the best starter dart but it's for a bloody good reason and you'll comfortably house 3 or 4 adults in that viv, don't discount them as a possibility just because of their commonness .

Jon


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

leucs are brilliant, love mine, hopefully some Tinc keepers will pop along soon, I will someday have Matecho and Azzies


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

I think you have a good idea, I personally wouldn't have chosen an exo terra... unless you are like Jon and got it cheap or free as there not massively practical 

if you have bought it brand new from a pet shop or somewhere I would see if you can take it back and get a viv made from somewhere like DMS vivaria, rainforest vivs or even take a look in classified as there are good ENT vivs up for sale for peanuts your talking £40-£70 

one thing you need to do next is start playing with flies, I would again check out classified and find a hobbyist selling cultures try both mels and hydi, I think there are benefits from buying from people in the hobby and not these shops,
1. we are all 100% addicted to this hobby like a street tramp to special brew and you will get thing cheaper and will ALWAYS get advice and you know that money will go back into the hobby somehow not paying for a directors Porsche 
2. ask the seller how there managing to culture the flies / woods/ spring and if you get chance to go see them GO this is invaluable that you don't get from a shop 
3. we all need to stick together its a small hobby, no one will make millions running this as a business however at the moment there are a few people out there thinking they will (a few del boys)

anyway crack flies mate these are a pain until you find a method that works for YOU, everyone is different and uses different methods but aim to get the same result (shed loads of flies)

spring and woods, I again would start culturing ask around try get a small amount from someone that wont cost a lot I can highly reconment Darren RL on here for flies and woods and stu (soundstounite) may have stuff available I got some whites from him over a year ago and have 1000's you know your getting top stuff from this guy 

Where do you live ? try find someone close buy take a look at there frogs /set ups/ culture methods talk to them go to there house for 1/2 a day its well worth it. there are things also like BAKS and Nick form PoisonFrog arranged a house meet in March these things are great to talk to people but I don't think its as good as going to someones house and get there 100% attention for a few hours 

research everywhere you can, there are many formats. Dart frog do some really good books there is sites like RFUK, Poison frog,BAKS has a web site, Dendroboard and also facebook loads of groups


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Hmmm, this is what I had wondered as I had read up on the potential problems with Exo-Terra tanks (ie - escapees between the doors, issues keeping humidity up etc). Whilst I'm happy to mod it, the main thing is that I want happy frogs. We have bought it new; I will have a chat with the other half tonight and see what we want to do, whether that's mod it or take it back and go for a different model. Part of me thinks if we're going to the extent of building a drip wall and so on, then why are we effectively scrimping out on a tank, when we could get one that will be perfect. Cost isn't per se an issue, as we're planning to spread the expense over a matter of months, and I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that animals, especially reptiles are not a cheap hobby haha.

With regard to the tanks with sloping glass at the bottom; what are the advantages of this over using a tank without one. Presumably on a false bottom tank you don't use the clay balls? Obviously, the water is going to be cleaner because it's not going to be recirc through the tank via a filter, if it's draining to the front and then flowing out of an exit pipe.

Location wise, we are in between Wakefield and Leeds, but my parents live about 20 miles north of London and we try to drive down to see them once a month so if I need to drive down to pick things up it's not a problem.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Well I just phoned them and they only offer store credit when returning a viv :banghead: and somehow I highly doubt I'm going to need £90 worth of plants...

Modding it is and lesson learnt for next time!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Well I just phoned them and they only offer store credit when returning a viv :banghead: and somehow I highly doubt I'm going to need £90 worth of plants...
> 
> Modding it is and lesson learnt for next time!


The ENT tanks are more popular with dart keepers, for sure, but plenty of people manage perfectly well with converted Exos. At least you already know what things you have to do with it! I have noticed that they can vary a lot in terms of door gaps- all of mine have properly-sized, secure doors; I've rejected ones before with excessive gaps.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

I've looked at the doors, and frankly they look pretty snug, but it's always worth double checking. Last thing I need is a tiddly frog squeezing through and being chased round the room by a big stompy greyhound haha. (Don't worry, we've checked and the tank is out of his eyeline, so we should be ok regards him bothering them. If he can't see them, he doesn't tend to care ha).

So, first thing's first, get hold of some perspex / glass for the top to keep the humidity up and look at some finer meshing for the vents. Is there a general consensus among exoterra people how much of the mesh needs to be replaced or is it a case of trial and error?

Wonder if anyone has any experience regards my next question; Carnivorous plants? I keep sundews on my windowsill, and their main protein source comes from fruit flies. Would it be safe to put a *SMALL* sundew in the tank, or am I running the risk of it hurting one of my frogs? Regards the sundews' needs, the tank would be perfect; humid, warm and lots of light, but I obviously don't want one of my frogs getting stuck to it / damaging it's skin if it hops past it. For anyone who doesn't know, sundews have little "hairs" with a glob of sticky stuff on the end. It smells like nectar to flies, and when they go to drink it, they get stuck to it and the sundew plant curls it's leaf around the fly and digests it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frmyzIhD29Q timelapse video for anyone who's interested..


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I've never heard of insectivorous plants causing harm to frogs- in fact I *have* heard of frogs depositing eggs and tadpoles in pitcher plants (!); I'm willing to bet most people would advise that it's not worth the risk, though.

On the door/gap front, my reeds- which are smaller than some darts- are in an Exo with no escape problems- again, I checked the fit first!


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> I've never heard of insectivorous plants causing harm to frogs- in fact I *have* heard of frogs depositing eggs and tadpoles in pitcher plants (!); I'm willing to bet most people would advise that it's not worth the risk, though.
> 
> On the door/gap front, my reeds- which are smaller than some darts- are in an Exo with no escape problems- again, I checked the fit first!


 ron out of curiosity what do you feed the reed frogs that are smaller then darts? as I know your not a fan of FF


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> ron out of curiosity what do you feed the reed frogs that are smaller then darts? as I know your not a fan of FF


They can eat surprising large prey; the staple is 3rd instar crickets, they also happily take woodlice, moths, spiders etc of equivalent size.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Carnivorous plants should be fine with dart frogs.
I have an Nepenthus Alata in with my Leucs and it`s never been an issue in over 2 years.


Mike


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Good to know that they will eat little spiders; the beardie will take the big black ones, but if it it's not taken a pint glass to catch it, then she just watches it run round the viv and squeeze out the vent at the back lol :bash:

Definitely interested in putting a carnivorous plant in with them if it's safe; I've been looking to get some more anyway, and the stockist I got my sundews from sends them bare-rooted too. Will have a look at their native environments and see if and what grows there. I know they're going to be captive-bred anyway, but if it makes it more realistic they might be happier :lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Good to know that they will eat little spiders; the beardie will take the big black ones, but if it it's not taken a pint glass to catch it, then she just watches it run round the viv and squeeze out the vent at the back lol :bash:
> 
> Definitely interested in putting a carnivorous plant in with them if it's safe; I've been looking to get some more anyway, and the stockist I got my sundews from sends them bare-rooted too. Will have a look at their native environments and see if and what grows there. I know they're going to be captive-bred anyway, but if it makes it more realistic they might be happier :lol2:


Be a bit careful with spiders and darts- they will only eat them if they are very small (unlike reeds, lol, which will have a go anyway!) and large spiders could be a threat to your frogs. Even baby spiders grow...


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Ron Magpie said:


> Be a bit careful with spiders and darts- they will only eat them if they are very small (unlike reeds, lol, which will have a go anyway!) and large spiders could be a threat to your frogs. Even baby spiders grow...


Ah that is a valid point. We've had a couple of those false widows in our house too, so obviously they go back outside rather than being fed to anything. (Our first night in the house, I found one on the doormat and chucked it outside. Felt a bit guilty as it was hammering it down, but by the morning it had woven a massive web under the lip of our wheelie bin lol!) 

At the moment food wise I'm hoping for a good colony of woodlice and springtails in the viv, and then feeding the frogs with fruit flies, bean weevils, and pea aphids. Obviously, if we have a variety of food for them then it means if one culture goes T.U then they still have something to eat. It might also depend on what we can cultivate successfully.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Ah that is a valid point. We've had a couple of those false widows in our house too, so obviously they go back outside rather than being fed to anything. (Our first night in the house, I found one on the doormat and chucked it outside. Felt a bit guilty as it was hammering it down, but by the morning it had woven a massive web under the lip of our wheelie bin lol!)
> 
> *At the moment food wise I'm hoping for a good colony of woodlice and springtails in the viv, and then feeding the frogs with fruit flies, bean weevils, and pea aphids. Obviously, if we have a variety of food for them then it means if one culture goes T.U then they still have something to eat. It might also depend on what we can cultivate successfully.*


That sounds like an excellent strategy! :2thumb:

On the false widow front, my fire-bellied toads eat them quite happily, when I come across them in the flat...


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

We've just been reading up on various other live build threads; literally cannot WAIT to get started now.

Also, been on google looking at various different species, and those that we are especially enraptured with are tinctorius and auratus. Can anyone provide any pointers on how many adults could happily exist in the viv, male to female ratio, and any specific care requirements that differ from the norm?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Pige tell us your name please kiddo.

auratus can be very shy and take a while to settle down get to know you and be visible,I would want it to put you off them but it's something I'd personally want you to know about,as would most of the guys here. I think they are a great starter frog if one is aware that for a while they might completely disappear and one needs to stay one's hand from searching and stressing them.

If you were to go for auratus i'd recommend setting up a simple QT tub for a few months so you can monitor them much more easily.

Auatus seem to do well in groups,but i have come across cases of female agression leading to them,needed splitting BUT I think that is possibly extreme, myself not seen these problems ,although I have seen the agression,it has never amounted to any weight loss. Possibly 4 or 5 dependent on vis design and how much use you make of the space.

Oh Danes words on the ent viv I completely agree on,no you wouldn't probably need clay balls leca

Tincs females can be very territorial,so male high groups seem to be the norm here,folks do sometimes get away with no problems in a group senario often these have been reared together. I would always say now after a while of keeping all frogs are individuals,so we can give you guidlines but no absolute rules. 

tincs are much bolder in a humans presence,so make great beginners frogs from the visibility standpoint,but damn they eat when growing,I stongly suspect many new guys don't get a full grasp of how much these guys need to eat ,John's already made a reference to some of our erm big kids:notworthy:,they can be bloody big for a dart these frogs are slow growing and really need space and food in equal measure. But many never reach the size they should,I think due to the above parameters and also being bred before the 2 year mark. I think more prone to stress than some realise,but fabulous to keep and be mates with.

So there are some brief pointers with the two species,more detail in my thread ,but finding it isn't always easy.

Next up food,again(i think) Dane has already mentioned this,but I'll try and hammer this one,dart guys spend way more time keeping bugs alive than playing frogs,this is your cornerstone to success. We are bug breeders that keep frogs. Your kick off point now...yesterday are woodlice,grab some asap,let them build in number slowly but surely,but they take longer than other feeders,and are less work so start here. don't think of these and more especially springtails as just custodians. springtails you can never have enough of a fantastic feeder and almost essentil with baby frogs,probably essential to a small species feeder like tincs too. Dispite tincs being big,they ironically like tiny food So they along with ff would be my next choice of feeder to get to grips with,only when one has this nailed would I consider getting frogs.

finally luecs shouldn't be underestimated for a beginner,but most important for me is you adore the frogs you keep luecs are just fun if you don't like them cool,but as someone that does keep and adores them I have to mention them,great in groups fairly bold forgiving of temp variation,TO SOME EXTENT! just great frogs.

Beside all this stick a max min thermometer where your viv will live now,it will help give you yardsticks for later

seeya

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Can't believe I've managed to omit my name through all these posts! What a numpty; It's Lindsay , and the other half mentioned is Mark. (I'm a girl btw, I realise Lindsay is a unisex name lol) More than happy to be called pige though if that's easier :lol2:

I did read that auratus can be shy; I can handle having shy animals, but how shy are we talking? It is a case of "when I go over to the tank they hide under a plant", or literally "I haven't seen them for 3 months, I assume they're still alive"?

Regards tincs being big eaters, that doesn't phase me, especially if I can spend a good few months getting my foodstuffs ready for them, and in a strange way, I think it's sometimes easier with heavy eaters, as you feel less concerned about overfeeding them by mistake.

I totally agree with you about needing to adore them. Don't get me wrong, I think the Leucs are cool, but I can't help feeling that I'd get them, and still feel that I would have loved tincs or auratus, which sort of defeats the point.

I will defo start looking into getting my woodlice and springtail community started now, and then once the tank is ready and planted I can move them in. That won't be for a good month or two yet, so gives me plenty of time to get them going. Stu, did I see that you sell starter communities? Whereabouts are you based? My local shop was selling woodlice, but said to feed them only on wet cardboard (sounds nutritious... :?

Quick question; the exo-terra viv has an entire mesh top at present. Around half of this will be converted to either glass or perspex, and I'm planning on using a UV light to support the frogs and help the plants grow. I know there is some dispute about whether this is necessary, but surely the frogs are going to need D3 to absorb calcium, and so UV, provided it's not too intense, is going to be beneficial? How is the best way to mount this on the top? And in terms of heating do any of use heat lamps, or do you all use heat mats?

The shop near me actually has a basking light near the front to simulate the light coming through at the edge of a forest clearing. Again if this is worth doing, how is the best way for me to mount it without it melting the mesh / cracking glass / melting perspex?

Also worth mentioning that the tank is going to be placed on a cabinet, and will not receive any natural light; our house is overlooked so our front curtains are always closed. There is a radiator approximately 4ft away from it under the window, and that is the only heat source nearby, so I think they will need a regular source of heating and lighting.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

PigeonYouDead said:


> I did read that auratus can be shy; I can handle having shy animals, but how shy are we talking? It is a case of "when I go over to the tank they hide under a plant", or literally "I haven't seen them for 3 months, I assume they're still alive"?


Think the latter with some species leaning towards " Oh my god, it's been a year, I'm sure I had frogs in that glass box............". It took 3 months for me to see my auratus but now they're bold as anything. The thing is, they have some of the nicest colouring of a lot of darts but they sure as hell make you work hard to see them but it's worth it. Don't be put off, just don't start digging your substrate up looking for them if you go the auratus route as it's a sure fire way to stress them out and kill them.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

ronnyjodes said:


> Think the latter with some species leaning towards " Oh my god, it's been a year, I'm sure I had frogs in that glass box............". It took 3 months for me to see my auratus but now they're bold as anything. The thing is, they have some of the nicest colouring of a lot of darts but they sure as hell make you work hard to see them but it's worth it. Don't be put off, just don't start digging your substrate up looking for them if you go the auratus route as it's a sure fire way to stress them out and kill them.


I don't reaaaaallllly mind if they're shy to start with. Obviously if they're going to spend their entire lives hiding that's a bit pants. I will spend some more time thinking about it over the coming months. First thing to get sorted is modifying the tank and getting my bug colonies going!


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

ronnyjodes said:


> Sounds like a decent plan so far. I've got the same Exo with leucs in and it's a great size for the 3 of them. Before you start with backgrounds and whatnot you're going to have to mod the Exo to make it suitable. *The best and most permanent way is to replace at least the 2 of the 4 mesh panels with glass to help keep humidity in. Personally I've used perspex (not under the lights for obvious reasons) and it's served me well although expect a bit of warping.* I only opted for this combo because a) I won the tank in the BAKS raffle (cheap plug) and b) I had some perspex kicking around and I'm too cheap to buy glass.
> 
> Jon


We thought we had some perspex in the shed, but turns out it's only in tiny pieces so we're going to try and get hold of some glass as we've got to go out and buy stuff anyway.

Quick question for you, did you replace the mesh along the top too with finer mesh or did you find it was small enough already to prevent FF escapes? Also, how did you mount your lights on top? Did you get an exo-terra light hood or mount them another way? I'm just wondering if the heat off the lights is not going to melt / damage the mesh? :hmm:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> We thought we had some perspex in the shed, but turns out it's only in tiny pieces so we're going to try and get hold of some glass as we've got to go out and buy stuff anyway.
> 
> Quick question for you, did you replace the mesh along the top too with finer mesh or did you find it was small enough already to prevent FF escapes? Also, how did you mount your lights on top? Did you get an exo-terra light hood or mount them another way? I'm just wondering if the heat off the lights is not going to melt / damage the mesh? :hmm:


Lindsey,replace the mesh,you want it smaller and stainless steel,the exo stuff rusts I'm told,I'll leave the rest to Jonny,but if you struggle for mesh give me a shout mate

Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Lindsey,replace the mesh,you want it smaller and stainless steel,the exo stuff rusts I'm told,I'll leave the rest to Jonny,but if you struggle for mesh give me a shout mate
> 
> Stu


Yeah, it does rust- I usually cover the front mesh panel at the top with glass, perspex or plastic to maintain the humidity for my treefrogs, and it develops rusty spots quite quickly. None of them have rusted through though (yet! :gasp. Replacement is probably a good idea, especially at the humidity you will need.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

This is what I do to mod the tops Lindsay. I hope you can view it.

Tops for tanks | Canadart

Cheers,


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> This is what I do to mod the tops Lindsay. I hope you can view it.
> 
> Tops for tanks | Canadart
> 
> Cheers,


What a clever boy you are! :2thumb:

I had to look up 'spline'- wondered if it was some heathen Colonial practice... :whistling2:


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

I've sent DMS vivaria a message to see if he can help with any offcuts of glass or mesh that I can buy off him as per grizzlymonkyboy, but if anyone else knows where I can buy it without paying a fortune then let me know!

Just had a look at the lid and hoped the screen would pop out... seems not :banghead: I was hoping I would be able to push the current screen out and fit a new one, half screen and half glass in.

@FrogFreak; How do you mount your light(s)? Do you have a shelf above that they are mounted on or do you use the exo-terra hood?


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

PigeonYouDead said:


> @FrogFreak; How do you mount your light(s)? Do you have a shelf above that they are mounted on or do you use the exo-terra hood?


Most of my tanks are on a rack and have T5 lights above, but with my Leuc tank I use an Exo hood. With the screen at the front or rear the lights don't hit the screen.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> Most of my tanks are on a rack and have T5 lights above, but with my Leuc tank I use an Exo hood. With the screen at the front or rear the lights don't hit the screen.


Thanks, I think that's going to be the easiest way for me to do it as I've not got mine in any sort of racking at the moment.

Do you have to silicone the lid in, or can you just use the clips instead?


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Thanks, I think that's going to be the easiest way for me to do it as I've not got mine in any sort of racking at the moment.
> 
> Do you have to silicone the lid in, or can you just use the clips instead?


The clips don't really work as the glass is much thinner. You don't have to silicone it though, I've done it with and without. Siliconing it does prevent fly escapes though.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Roped the bf in and we've managed to prise out both lots of mesh, so now we're left with the plastic frame that fits the top.

Planning to install a new finer mesh in this, and either two pieces of glass or two pieces of perspex, all siliconed in so we still have a removable top.

Stu; did you say you knew where to get some mesh? Help please


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

This is how I converted my exo lid http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/amphibians/944120-dart-frog-exo-build-pic.html


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Roped the bf in and we've managed to prise out both lots of mesh, so now we're left with the plastic frame that fits the top.
> 
> Planning to install a new finer mesh in this, and either two pieces of glass or two pieces of perspex, all siliconed in so we still have a removable top.
> 
> Stu; did you say you knew where to get some mesh? Help please


Yeah mate I know this guy whom keeps darts builds his own vivs,so naturally that guy buys mesh by the roll,got a feeling you might have spoken to him:whistling2:

Lindsey PM me some measurements,if you want,but as you have already spoken to Dale,it's not really my bag to take a sale from him,so tis your choice mate,but I have two mesh sizes and just try to help dart guys,hmmm, cough cough lasses too:blush: get going

Ron you are a bugger mate,:lol2: 

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Yeah mate I know this guy whom keeps darts builds his own vivs,so naturally that guy buys mesh by the roll,got a feeling you might have spoken to him:whistling2:
> 
> Lindsey PM me some measurements,if you want,but as you have already spoken to Dale,it's not really my bag to take a sale from him,so tis your choice mate,but I have two mesh sizes and just try to help dart guys,hmmm, cough cough lasses too:blush: get going
> 
> ...


I just had a long chat with Dale, he pretty much said the same as everyone else; that it would be a massive faff to modify it, and even then I'm still going to have bugs crawling over my house, difficulty with humidity etc, So....

Expected the bf to throw a paddy when I told him, but after admitting he's going to spending about £1500 on bike parts this month :gasp:, he's suggested we keep that tank for a future project (possibly gecko), and buy a dedicated frog viv from Dale, which frankly saves me A LOT of work, and means we can use the exo-terra as a temporary tank to keep plants etc in while we're doing up the main one.

Seems like a good solution to me, and the main thing is that we'll have happy frogs.

I'm just glad we've come to this decision before we've started any of the real work!


----------



## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

*Updates*

Got a day off work today on flexi, so decided to spend the day doing chores and more importantly; frog stuff!

The tank is ordered with Dale @ DMS Vivaria. Gone for a 70x40x40. After meeting the man from Dartfrog.co.uk (Marc?) on Sunday at BAKS, I have changed my mind _AGAIN_ :bash: and decided to go for an epiweb bottom and back wall, and save the expanding foam background for the exo-terra; thinking we'll probably use it for geckos at some point in the future, so it makes more sense to do the expanding foam then instead of using it for a drip wall.

As for the froggies, after chatting to Callum and Mike on sunday who both advised that terribilis can get foot rot if they're kept too damp, I am again finding myself drawn to Tincs or Auratus. Stu's auratus on sunday were absolutely stunning, and I got to see a Tinc Oyapock in the flesh; pictures just don't do them justice! Mike also suggested splashbacks?! Adelphobates Galactonotus, super cute and so bright!

Picked up a few bits of decor too; a big weird nut type thing that will give them a really nice hidey hole, a seed pod, and some big leaves.

Also got a springtail colony, so now I just need to nip out and get some yeast to feed them on! Is there a particular type people use? I've got some bread yeast in the cupboard, but it's the dried stuff so assume this is no good?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Lindsay if your still interested in Terribs don`t let the foot rot worry you.
I use flat stones which dry fast after misting and these give them plenty of dry places to stand around on.
Slate is also a nice alternative.
To make conditions too wet for them you have to be doing far too much misting or using a substrate which doesn`t dry well.
I`ve kept Terribs now for 3 years and have never experienced the foot rot which people keep harping on about.
Sometimes it just pays to ignore all the hype.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Linds,allinsons bread yeast,yellow pot, Tesco about 70p ,sprinkle a bit in,mist charcoal first so it sticks mist yeast afterwards so it's good and wet,add a bit of grated cuttle bone for Ca,vent fairly regularly,to avoid CO2 build up.It only seems to be a problem CO2 with real rocking cultures and probably slightly too much food,that's where I have been caught in the past anyway,but tis no bad thing to open then regularly. when i say rocking I mean silly stupid numbers,my tendancies and possible mistake is to try and feed to that I think,so one has the double whammy of tones of beasties,using O2 and breathing out CO2 plus the CO2 from the active yeast.....just one to watch for

Mate I'm out of attachis for a while,I saw the links,thanks Calz,erm i think:blush: same with the SB's,but my only words are you have different guys keeping different species to tap up for their experiences with each species,choose what you will adore mate,yeah I also know how difficult making that choice is,but the phrase "you must love 'em" is the most important thing for me

seeya

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Tbh, mine got foot rot from my own mistake which was over spraying.

Terribs are great frogs, and are very bold and visual. I will say that mine arent particularly "active" though, unless they are eating, then they go mental. 

I am not too sure how the epiweb floor systems work, I think a member called hearts4darts was trying to set up one that they had inherited. 

Its great to see you are taking the steps forward!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Actually Calz,you raising sub's,I've not used epiweb for floors,but i think I'd prefer a "natural type mix",just have a hunch the custodians/feeders might fair better which ever form that substrate takes than they would fair on epiweb,personal point of veiw

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Callum is right they are bold as brass, and probably the boldest of all dart frogs.
Mine too spend most of the day sitting around and I put this down to them waiting for food to arrive lol.
And yes, feeding time is a blast.
They go from being one of the most laid back frogs to one of the most voracious feeders there are and it is so funny to watch.


Mike


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## Liam Yule (Feb 16, 2012)

Mine were very shy to begin with and are now very very bold. They are quite active still atm and one perches near the top of the viv every night just before lights out. They seem very interested in one another too. They will definitely give you a good laugh, especially around feeding time.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Decisions... decisions... I defo agree with going what you love, and in my mind when I think of dart frogs I always go to tinctorius, and now I've seen the auratus in the flesh that is definitely a prime contender. There's something about terribilis that I can't quite put my finger on; I'm just not quite sold on them for our first frogs, feel mean saying it but it's true :lol2:. We're not going to be getting any other species until we buy our own house, which is not going to be for a few years at this rate; I'm sure we'll have more in the future, but as we're only getting 1 species for now, it makes sense to get something we both love. I'm currently trying to convince the fella to come along to MAD next sunday so we can look together!

When I spoke to Marc at BAKS from Dartfrog.co.uk, I'm sure he said you can put the substrate on top of it to build it up in areas to plant your plants into, and leave other areas as epiweb moss ? I'm waiting for an email back from him anyway as the shop is closed for easter, so when I speak to him I will double check.

For me personally, what I'm hoping for is drip wall at the back, covered in moss, bromeliads, maybe an orchid and anything else that wants to grow there (little ferns etc). Then at the bottom, I have a gorgeous indoor palm (will try and find the name) which is tank-safe, so hoping to take a few shoots from that, clean them off and plant them in one corner. Then on the bottom, I want a mix of moss, dead leaves, hides, and little plants, along with a bit of slate and some twiggy bits for them to climb up.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Lindsay if your going to MAD say hi as I`ll be there too.
There is no reason that I can think of why you can`t make little piles of soil for plants to root into.
I do exactly that with the peat plates as it helps the roots get going before they start digging into the peat.
When I first saw Terribs I was exactly like you and thinking they`re not really for me.
Now ? I can`t imagine being without them, and actually brought another 2 Mints home from Baks to add to my others.

Mike


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

You will find the more frogs u see the more u will like lol 
Everyone has a fav and I'm sure everyone tells u a diff frog 
Go with your heart within reason  get the viv ready and food mastered (I'm sure stu has said that) go to a show and get the frog that takes your breath away 


Thanks 
Dane


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

frogman955 said:


> Hi Lindsay if your going to MAD say hi as I`ll be there too.
> There is no reason that I can think of why you can`t make little piles of soil for plants to root into.
> I do exactly that with the peat plates as it helps the roots get going before they start digging into the peat.
> When I first saw Terribs I was exactly like you and thinking they`re not really for me.
> ...


We may be able to come. I did just look on google maps and it is an absolutely trek from us. I will let you know what we decide!

I do really like the mint colouration; they look strange!


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Have you thought about galactonotus ? they look ace and i've been severly tempted by them


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> You will find the more frogs u see the more u will like lol


and even the ones you maybe dont like in photos you find you love in real life. I'm looking at you Ranitomeya imitators and auratus 'Super Blue' :lol2:

I need a spare room so bad! so many darts, mantella and day geckos i would love to own.


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

plasma234 said:


> and even the ones you maybe dont like in photos you find you love in real life. I'm looking at you Ranitomeya imitators and auratus 'Super Blue' :lol2:
> 
> I need a spare room so bad! so many darts, mantella and day geckos i would love to own.


i've just moved my entertainment out the room so it cant be a frog room aha, and super blues are amazing, loving creepign in on my guys, one was popping his head in and out of a coco hut this morning looking at me lol


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Patience is not my strong point, but my god when I want something I will just go on and on about it until I get it... and then go on about it some more lol


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Patience is not my strong point, but my god when I want something I will just go on and on about it until I get it... and then go on about it some more lol


Just say 'no'. Addiction is not pretty- although the frogs are...


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Nah, I won't go mental... not until I've got my own place that is!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Nah, I won't go mental... not until I've got my own place that is!


Famous last words... :whistling2:


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

Ron Magpie said:


> Famous last words... :whistling2:


i remember saying that, now look at me


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## dartfrog vivariums (Jun 7, 2013)

we dont plan to go mental it just happens I started with one viv and couple of plants now ummm my own jungle


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Parlour Palm! That's the palm I have


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Parlour Palm! That's the palm I have


They are a good sturdy display plant- I use them a lot, they are slow-growing and stand up well to being jumped on by frogs. I find they do best kept in their pots, though, sunken into the substrate- they don't like root disturbance much.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Ron Magpie said:


> They are a good sturdy display plant- I use them a lot, they are slow-growing and stand up well to being jumped on by frogs. I find they do best kept in their pots, though, sunken into the substrate- they don't like root disturbance much.


Thanks for the tip! I'm hoping to take a couple of large shoots from the side of my current plant, so will get a little pot for it. That way, at least if it kicks the bucket it's easy to remove!


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

It's official... I've gone mental.

Went to MAD yesterday, saw some frogs with the other half, he really liked the ranitomeyas, but we've both decided the bigger frogs would be a better bet for us right now.

Apparently, I woke him up at 4am this morning shouting "I've decided what frogs I want!" The sad thing is, when I said "the species I want is..." apparently the subsequent word was jibberish so I'm still no closer to deciding :bash:


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Quick update!

The tank is due to be delivered around the end of may, it's being made by Dale at DMS Vivs, and he's going to drop it in to us en route up to Scotland. I literally cannot wait, this coming month is going to be painful!

Then we're ordering the epiweb irrigation drip wall kit from Dartfrog, so that will hopefully be coming up at the same time.

Once the tank is here we'll get the epiweb in, get the pump for the irrigation system going, along with all the water and paint on the moss / seed mix and let that start to grow in.

I'm hoping to use an underwater aquarium heater to keep the temps up in the tank, and will leave an area of the bottom with just moss on so I can lift it up should I need to get access to the pump / heater. What do people suggest regards UV? I want to use it, as much for the plants as for the frogs. The viv will be 70x40x40 [cm], and I'm not going to have a racking system, so I need some sort of hood / mount to sit the UV tube in so it's not simply laying it on the top of the viv...

My springtails have gone nuts on their charcoal substrate, and so now I just need a colony of woodlice to work on and then they will be able to go into the tank.

Substrate I was planning on is a mix of coco soil, tree fern, orchid bark and sphagnum moss with oak leaves / other leaves on the top?

Any pointers on lighting and substrate would be greatly appreciated! :2thumb:


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Just a few pointers I would split your springs if there is enough this will then provide u a back up just in cases. Darrenrl sells some Costa Rican purple woods which are great little things and a must is stu's dwarf whites I had some at the 2nd Baks and there still going strong lol again try make a few cultures of each just incase one crashes or gets infested with something  


Thanks 
Dane


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sounds like everything is falling into place nicely Lindsay.
Won`t be long now.
Oh and it might be worth considering putting your springtails in a larger tub :lol2:.


Mike


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ooooo and start playing with flies I found these little things the hardest to crack 

Well until I came across aphids  


Thanks 
Dane


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> Just a few pointers I would split your springs if there is enough this will then provide u a back up just in cases. Darrenrl sells some Costa Rican purple woods which are great little things and a must is stu's dwarf whites I had some at the 2nd Baks and there still going strong lol again try make a few cultures of each just incase one crashes or gets infested with something
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dane


Yes! Wise advice. I will get another tub and divide the culture. I'm sure I've got another ice cream tub somewhere where I can put them  . I'll msg Stu about the white ones; I specifically wanted those over the normal grey ones, mainly because they're so teeny.


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Yes! Wise advice. I will get another tub and divide the culture. I'm sure I've got another ice cream tub somewhere where I can put them  . I'll msg Stu about the white ones; I specifically wanted those over the normal grey ones, mainly because they're so teeny.


if you think you have been bitten by the frog bug you just wait ........ there is more to come

one day you will wake up at 8am on a sat morning to a banging on the door and u rush to the door to find its the postman, bringing you a parcel of more woodlice ..... not normal woodlice but an exciting new woodlice that you don't have in your collection (this happened to me today) and before you know it you will start collecting woodlice
purple ones, grey ones, white ones, oooo orange ones, striped ones 


I was at work on Thursday on the phone to my OH and was out side the building on a mud track/ path when I saw 4 or 6 odd looking woodlice I demanded my OH bring me a container asap so I could collect them and take them home 

Mad -- most defo 

this HOBBY can destroy your life


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Friends, family and work colleagues already think I'm nuts for animals... it concerns me it may get worse :lol2:

Do actually find the springtails fascinating. They're so tiny and weird and multiply so quickly. I had the tub open on my lap the other night on the sofa looking at them trundling around. Had to politely nudge the dog away as I was concerned he would sniff them and inhale them in the process haha.

Looking forward to getting my woodlice on the go. I found one in the kitchen yesterday because the dog was trying to eat it, didn't know you could get different colours. Do the frogs still eat them all? I may have to investigate...

And as for aphids, you could have had the thousands of black ones that swamped my little japanese maple! They've all dropped off and gone now though, they were only interested in the buds and now it's got proper leaves they've gone to eat something else. My sundew caught a little green one in my kitchen a few days ago, unsure where it had come from though. I'm hoping to cultivate some of those too. I was planning on bean weevils and confused flour beetles but been advised by a few people that it's not worth bothering with because very few frogs actually like them...


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Frogs will eat any wood louse as long as its either small enough to fit in there mouth and large snout for them to see, I keep mainly small frogs thumbnails and pums. All my frogs enjoy all the woodlice I can throw at them. The thing for me is the woodlice behaviour for example the dwarf white are lazy and hide alot with not alot of activity the Costa Rican purple aka fast grey are fast and stay on top of the substrate same as the striped (have also seen these on wood close to the top of my viv) 
Frogs in the wild don't get food thrown at them they have to find it which in turn givens them enrichment 
So if you can give your frogs differnt food options that behave differently its got to be a good thing
There are 3 dwarf woodlice species I keep they are the white, purple and striped mentioned above. There are also some larger species I like to have as pure clean up crew I always put in our native when I find, giant orange and there is a Cuban grey which is fast, most of my frogs also eat the babies from these large species 
Omg u have set me off lol ha ha if u need any advice on how to culture stu has it in his thread I use the same method with good results 


Thanks 
Dane


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

This is great Dane!

We have a basement and there are always a few trundling about in there, and I found a few in my shed yesterday when I was doing some gardening too. If I can put the natives in there too, then that's awesome, as long as they're not going to upset the frogs.

All of this has literally come at the worst time though; I'm in the process of going self employed at the moment and will have to go 2 months without income, and just had to fork out approx £1200 on bills and birthday presents. Not one for the sob stories but had to vent to someone haha; All I want to do is buy bits for the tank but at the moment I'm having to wait!


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Yes collect as many as you can and keep in a vented Tupperware tub for a month or so this way if they have any nasties they will have gone (pestercides) 
I had the same thing 4 years ago I decided to go self employed was really hard at the time but best move I have ever done 
This can be a good thing for your frogs aswell because most people have that little extra cash and will buy everything rather then getting the freebies on offer
Go to your local woods for branches rather then spend £10 a meter from a site  hunt and trawl through sits for freebies and stuff, one good tip ask family and friends for ice cream tubs you can never have to many  


Thanks 
Dane


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

We're off for a venture tonight down to the woods to see what we can find!  My parents also live near a wood and have a lot of wildlife / plants / trees in the garden too, and my grandad has a HUGE oak tree in his garden, so will raid them when I next go down in May. :gasp: ACTUALLY... my bro is coming up next weekend hopefully, will ask him to grab me a few bagfulls of oak leaves and bring them up with him. :2thumb::2thumb:

I have some spare tubs which I buy my beardie's locusts in, have kept them behind, so that gives me 5 small plastic vented tubs for woodlice. The holes will be too big for springtails, but for woodlice and so on they'll be perfect. Just found one in the basement, so that's in a jam jar until I can grab some woodland soil and bits this afternoon.

Feel so much happier now than I did this morning after waking up remembering I have like £200 in my bank account :lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Lindsay, bean weevils are good to have on hand.
Only the larger frogs will eat them, Leucs, Tincs and Terribs, but in my opinion everyone should have them as a backup food supply.
They breed reliably and cost nothing to keep other than a bag of black eyed beans now and again to culture them on.
One day your fly cultures might fail and regardless of what some might try to tell you, IT WILL HAPPEN, one day.
Then you can turn to the bean weevils for help.
They have helped me out several times in the past.


Mike


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

So what does everyone recommend regards the lighting?


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

PigeonYouDead said:


> So what does everyone recommend regards the lighting?


NOW you`ve opened a can of worms :lol2:.
I`m using LEDs for all mine now except for one tank which has built in lights, it`s my old marine aquarium.
The best one to ask about lights is Ade as he has spent a long time researching them.

Mike


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Lights are something I can't help with I don't know what's best I'm also using led but had issues with them breaking a fair bit, as I'm totally useless with a soldering iron I have struggled 
However all is working at the mo


Thanks 
Dane


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Basically I want whatever is going to be best for the frogs and the plants, be that UV or LEDS. I was planning on using a UV striplight with some sort of hood mount (??) but if I go with LED's how does that work?


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Basically I want whatever is going to be best for the frogs and the plants, be that UV or LEDS. I was planning on using a UV striplight with some sort of hood mount (??) but if I go with LED's how does that work?


 what size viv are you going for? sorry if you have already said and I have been lazy


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Tis ok 

Its 70cm long by 40 deep and 40 high


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Tis ok
> 
> Its 70cm long by 40 deep and 40 high


 yeah im not sure on the std sizes I would ask john from arcadia what his canopy range is


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Lindsay I`m thinking that maybe for your first viv, keep it simple and go for a T5 unit.
It will be nice and simple for you rather than have you messing around with leds.
There are Arcadia units available which are the right length for you.
Arcadia Electronic T5 Controller for Reptile Fluorescent Light Tube | eBay
The 24 - 39 watt unit would do you.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Lindsay I`m thinking that maybe for your first viv, keep it simple and go for a T5 unit.
> It will be nice and simple for you rather than have you messing around with leds.
> There are Arcadia units available which are the right length for you.
> Arcadia Electronic T5 Controller for Reptile Fluorescent Light Tube | eBay
> ...


Linds I completely agree with mike one simple T5 and your sorted,I use both mate leds cut my running costs. but as Dane mentioned can be a fiddle if one hasn't done it before. Great they are still going Dane rock'n'roll. Guys i'm not up in all of Arcadias products but I would have thought one tube would be ample for a 40deep 40high,just wondering if there is a single tube holder,that might be a cheeper option,save our mate a few quid? For me I wouldn't want the viv too bright for darts,so one tube should be ample in my eyes.

Sorry I haven't got to you pm mate,i'm on my way,things are a bit mad here:whistling2:
take care

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

That's ok guys, I really appreciate all your help 

So I should be ok to lay the two tubes over the mesh, with a reflector on top? Will it not melt the mesh? I realllllly don't want them in the viv, because I just think it's going to be a horrible idea; misting system, and frogs and plants and so on.

My beardie has hers in the viv, but that's a dry environment and she can never get close enough to it for it to be dangerous.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

That link I gave you Lindsay is for a waterproof unit.
But yes the tubes would happily sit on top of the viv under a reflector.
The heat won`t melt the mesh but it might just make the viv a bit hot so you would have to prop the tubes up on something to keep them off the glass.


Mike


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Fab I'll go with this then.

I'm happy to do LEDs eventually when we have a racking system [hark at her... _*WHEN*_ lol] but for now I think the unit to sit on the top is going to be best.

Plus that link is about £70 cheaper than the unit I saw for sale online which was a complete clip on hood thingy.

I feel so confused about this. Feel like I've got my head around everything else and yet this just bewilders me so much for some reason lol


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

TIS ORDERED! 

And now to order some substrate, I am so excited to get this tank. Can't wait to get the plants in and let it grow in. There's currently a big blank space on top of our unit ready for the tank!


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

UGHH. Terrible day at work, and then my car nearly broke down on a huge 4 lane roundabout on the way home. Went completely mental and started turning all the interior lights on and off and saying the ABS, airbag and brakes had failed. Not the one. Got home in one piece so fingers crossed it doesn't blow up on the way in tomorrow.

I need to get some more charcoal for my springs, can anyone vouch for a site where you can buy? All that I've found is the granulated stuff and small logs would be better, as I can pick them up and shake the springs off.

Ordering my substrate tonight and hopefully lights as well. What do you think to these? Swell Daylight 2% UVB Lamps | Swell Reptiles


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Some of my substrate arrived today; what I'm planning for is a mix of fine orchid bark, sphagnum moss, cocosoil, tree fern root and granulated cork. Hopefully this should give us the right amount of moisture / drainage, somewhere for the bugs to live, and allow the plants to grow like mad. And a nice topping of oak leaves. 

I went on a woodland forage with the bf and dog the other day, managed to get 3 big bags worth of oak leaves which have all been boiled and then dried in the oven, and also picked up a nice piece of wood. Came free with two centipedes which went in the garden, and a couple of woodlice which I've kept in a tub with some leaves. The wood has been soaked in boiling water, [two weird stretchy white worms came out of it ], and it's been in the oven too for half an hour, and since then it's just been left out to continue drying.

Regards the lighting, I've decided after many questions and hours spent googling that our room is not bright enough for them to survive on natural light. The curtains are closed all day because we're completely overlooked on all 4 sides, and so what I want for the frogs, and the plants, is a bulb that simulates natural daylight. Found some online that are full spectrum, and only have 2% UV, so am hoping this will be sufficient for the plants, and keep the frogs healthy without giving them sunburn. This will be put on a timer for 12 hours a day. I think 14 hours a day is going to be a bit much, but I will see how it goes.

Starting to consider plants; I've already found a really cute little fern growing in next door's wall, so I'm going to pull that out and put it in the tank. Some sort of maidenhair fern perhaps?










And then there's this stuff [crap pictures] growing in an alley near us on a business park in between two buildings. It's spongey underfoot and appears to be growing actually on the tarmac, but I have NO idea what it is. I think it looks cool though, and if it's safe it could be cool to have in the viv. I have affectionately called it "Little Bomiknocker Plant".



















After some more googling I think it is actually common liverwort. I assume it's safe to use in tanks? Stu, didn't you have some in yours?


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Some of my substrate arrived today; what I'm planning for is a mix of fine orchid bark, sphagnum moss, cocosoil, tree fern root and granulated cork. Hopefully this should give us the right amount of moisture / drainage, somewhere for the bugs to live, and allow the plants to grow like mad. And a nice topping of oak leaves.
> 
> I went on a woodland forage with the bf and dog the other day, managed to get 3 big bags worth of oak leaves which have all been boiled and then dried in the oven, and also picked up a nice piece of wood. Came free with two centipedes which went in the garden, and a couple of woodlice which I've kept in a tub with some leaves. The wood has been soaked in boiling water, [two weird stretchy white worms came out of it ], and it's been in the oven too for half an hour, and since then it's just been left out to continue drying.
> 
> ...


Yes mate,it did ok for a good while, but I think it's slightly fussey on where it's planted in vivneeding possibly a very damp spot.It doesn't present a problem to frogs,in itself,but I have some concern over the collection site Linds,I go away from any built up area to collect,it's difficult to assimilate from your post,but anywhere near traffic,is a worry to me,or dogs or even other amphibians.

the first fern is Aspenium trichomanes,I know it well,we have grown it,I have not get tried it in viv myself,but have been told by others,it just melts.I suspect the warmth might be a factor, rather than moisture:Even though they oft grow in quite dry places,here,such as the above wall,I've also seen it where it got constantly damp,high up in the cotsworlds on the side of almost a well, I have similar concerns about the situation,mate. you have implied that you live somewhere built up,which always involves fall out from us humans. 

Lindsay we are very lucky to live out a bit from even a village,it's very difficult for me to quantify the risk of collecting from the "wild",but I feel it's important that you take them into consideration. As an example we use rainwater,I have a particular set up geared to harvesting the stuff and it works very well for me/us some of my friends here,that choice is simply not an option,just because of where they live

good luck

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Yes mate,it did ok for a good while, but I think it's slightly fussey on where it's planted in vivneeding possibly a very damp spot.It doesn't present a problem to frogs,in itself,*but I have some concern over the collection site Linds*,I go away from any built up area to collect,it's difficult to assimilate from your post,but anywhere near traffic,is a worry to me,or dogs or even other amphibians.


Hugely valid point. I was wary about the liverwort anyway, because the alley further down is pretty grubby, but more than anything curious as to what it was. The fern, I think, would probably be ok; I was hoping to wash it several times in purified water before putting it in the tank, but if it's not going to cope too well anyway it's probably better to leave it where it is.

What I may do, like I did with the oak leaves, is have a look in the woods. There are some really quiet secluded areas which are a bit of a scramble to get to, but it would mean no pollution, and no dogs / people / rubbish etc.

With the epiweb background, I'm going to hopefully have lots of different ferns and mosses, and then I really want some broms and possibly an orchid too, so the frogs have lots of hiding places, and lots of variety in terms of texture underfoot.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Hugely valid point. I was wary about the liverwort anyway, because the alley further down is pretty grubby, but more than anything curious as to what it was. The fern, I think, would probably be ok; I was hoping to wash it several times in purified water before putting it in the tank, but if it's not going to cope too well anyway it's probably better to leave it where it is.
> 
> What I may do, like I did with the oak leaves, is have a look in the woods. There are some really quiet secluded areas which are a bit of a scramble to get to, but it would mean no pollution, and no dogs / people / rubbish etc.
> 
> With the epiweb background, I'm going to hopefully have lots of different ferns and mosses, and then I really want some broms and possibly an orchid too, so the frogs have lots of hiding places, and lots of variety in terms of texture underfoot.


Mate that's where I would go ...out a bit,but with that comes the message of ask permission it's of great importance to have a landowners consent. You might also try the epiweb moss mix . I've not used the product persay,but you'll get a couple of tropical ferns at least from the mix,plus possible moss'es.

Trichomanes is one if those tiny ferns,most get big in viv,as above I'd still like a crack at it,lovely little thing. all this is about right plant right place mate,limited subs on some to keep them from going nuts,another native i love is Polypodium vulgare,check it out

best

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Mate that's where I would go ...out a bit,but with that comes the message of ask permission it's of great importance to have a landowners consent. You might also try the epiweb moss mix . I've not used the product persay,but you'll get a couple of tropical ferns at least from the mix,plus possible moss'es.
> 
> Trichomanes is one if those tiny ferns,most get big in viv,as above I'd still like a crack at it,lovely little thing. all this is about right plant right place mate,limited subs on some to keep them from going nuts,another native i love is Polypodium vulgare,check it out
> 
> ...


Yeah, the bit I'm thinking of it still a public wood, but there is a sheer slate face well off the beaten track that you can scramble to. Also, obviously, I won't be wrecking the whole place, just taking the smallest plants I can for the viv.

I'll be getting a kit with the epiweb moss so really looking forward to seeing what that produces. Those ferns you mentioned are lovely, I have a real soft spot for ferns. I really want an asparagus fern in there somewhere, but I need to think carefully about placement so it doesn't get trampled.

The other thing I'm trying to work out is what I'm going to do on the sides. The floor will have the epiweb base layer and then a mix of moss, substrate, plants, hides, leaves etc etc, and the back will have a drip wall covered in mosses, broms, hopefully an orchid and so on. But the frogs are going to need something on the sides too. Love all these tanks that use the expanding foam to create like rock formations on the sides and little pots to put the plants in. Need to get my thinking cap on...


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Yesterday was a full on frog day. It's taken me until this evening to even begin to process all the info haha.

So we drove from Leeds to Kidderminster, to Dartfrog. Picked up various things for the tank, including some plants, have no idea on plant species name so if anyone can help that would be great!!










The veins on this plant almost glitter in the light.


















Also picked up a little dinky orchid too, so fingers crossed that will establish itself well once the tank is set up.

Then we drove onto Evesham to see Stu and Shaz and their frog room. I am growing increasingly interested in the Tinc Atachi, whereas the other half is really into the Tinc Azureus. I think we've decided that Auratus are not a wise choice for our first frog as they're so shy. Thank you so much Stu for yesterday!! The vivs and frogs look amazing, and they really are a credit to you. Picked up my first culture of woodlice too! Feeding time tonight...










And of course you can never have too many springtails...










We finally got to my parents at 7:30pm, so yesterday was a LONG day. Discovered I'd even managed to rope my Dad into the bugs; he's been collecting native woodlice for me and has them in an impromptu little container haha. They seem to be surprisingly happy and there are LOADS in there!!


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

a visit to Stu and Shaz's is truly an amazing experience and eye opening


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

You're off to a great start! :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> You're off to a great start! :2thumb:


This one Lindsay^^^^^^:gasp::whistling2:

don't worry Glenn,I promise it's all bad:mf_dribble::Na_Na_Na_Na:

thanks Linds and you Mark,great getting to spend some froggy time,sorry breif,just wanted to invoke some mischief before I dash off :2thumb:

take care

Stu

ps thanks Joe:no1:


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Something funny for you all; now that I have my woodlice from Stu, he advised to feed them on Ready brek. Had a dream last night that we went into sainsbury's and they had a 12 pack of Ready brek for sale for the bargain price of £90.59.

Literally have no idea what is going on in my mind :lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Something funny for you all; now that I have my woodlice from Stu, he advised to feed them on Ready brek. Had a dream last night that we went into sainsbury's and they had a 12 pack of Ready brek for sale for the bargain price of £90.59.
> 
> Literally have no idea what is going on in my mind :lol2:


Lol, don't stress about the woodlice, they are eas- peasey. As well as ready brek, they'll eat bread, nuked frozen vegetables and dried cat food- all in small quantities at a time. Stu diaproves of using fish food, because of some of the additives, but they will eat it. I'm sure Stu has given you the lowdown on care, but just in case, don't worry if the food goes mouldy- they will eat that, too! :2thumb:


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Lol, don't stress about the woodlice, they are eas- peasey. As well as ready brek, they'll eat bread, nuked frozen vegetables and dried cat food- all in small quantities at a time. Stu diaproves of using fish food, because of some of the additives, but they will eat it. I'm sure Stu has given you the lowdown on care, but just in case, don't worry if the food goes mouldy- they will eat that, too! :2thumb:


they also love cuecumber


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Just ordered another lighting unit, as wasn't at all happy with the one I got from ebay. Got my reflector ordered too, so as soon as the tank arrives, we can get the plants in under the lighting and get them happy.

Still need to order a thermometer / hygrometer, work out what I'm doing regards heating the tank, and decide what to do on the sides of the viv.

Other plants on my list to obtain for the tank are an asparagus fern, oak leaf ficus, tillandsia ionantha. I may get a few more broms too, but for now, I want to put less plants in and try and find the best spot for them.

I also need a shedload more decor, huts etc, but I'll probably wait on those until June when I go to the doncaster expo.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Just ordered another lighting unit, as wasn't at all happy with the one I got from ebay. Got my reflector ordered too, so as soon as the tank arrives, we can get the plants in under the lighting and get them happy.
> 
> Still need to order a thermometer / hygrometer, work out what I'm doing regards heating the tank, and decide what to do on the sides of the viv.
> 
> ...


I had asparagus fern in one of my tanks, a few years ago- it can do well, if you remember it needs good drainage round the roots.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Final hunt round the garden for woodlice before we get packed up to leave tomorrow and look what I've found...










That's right an orange woodlouse. And it is proper orange?! Very weird!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Tocopherols Ron,I still use fishy flakey but just a tiny bit. their real diet is the subs bro,I would guess almost all they eat in the wild is in their subs,the food is really an extra I guess,to make the subs last just a bit longer.

Watch it Linds,lots of mutants in Watford:gasp:

I'll get my coat:blush:

But seriously I've seen similar here,not quite as cool as your's though,but hellish close. Giant orange I think are a Spanish version of our P scaber,so it's very conceivable to get orange here too. Going further I've always been amazed how well an orange iso camoflages with oak leaves/some rotten wood etc,one can see how this mutant has lasted,quite remarkable really.Cuture the collected a goodly bit drier than the white mate. If you pick them up gently and look underneath you'll see kids on some,always fascinates me this
tiny things tiny minds an' all that

Stu

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> *Watch it Linds,lots of mutants in Watford*:gasp:
> 
> But seriously I've seen similar here,not quite as cool as your's though,but hellish close. Giant orange I think are a Spanish version of our P scaber,so it's very conceivable to get orange here too. Going further I've always been amazed how well an orange iso camoflages with oak leaves/some rotten wood etc,one can see how this mutant has lasted,quite remarkable really.Cuture the collected a goodly bit drier than the white mate. If you pick them up gently and look underneath you'll see kids on some,always fascinates me this
> tiny things tiny minds an' all that
> ...


Why do you think I left? lol 

Yeah they're only wet at the very bottom where my dad had put some mud in with a collection of leaves on the top. I found all the adults trundling about in the leaves whereas the little baby ones were more at the bottom.

Couldn't believe it when I saw it! Looking forward to setting them up as a proper culture when I'm home  I'm basically going to set them up virtually as I will have them in the tank, so a mix of eco earth and orchid bark chips and a good topping of oak leaves on the top, and some nice soggy cardboard!!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Why do you think I left? lol
> 
> Yeah they're only wet at the very bottom where my dad had put some mud in with a collection of leaves on the top. I found all the adults trundling about in the leaves whereas the little baby ones were more at the bottom.
> 
> Couldn't believe it when I saw it! Looking forward to setting them up as a proper culture when I'm home  I'm basically going to set them up virtually as I will have them in the tank, so a mix of eco earth and orchid bark chips and a good topping of oak leaves on the top, and some nice soggy cardboard!!


:lol2:man I had to didn't I

Linds, mud=soil...cool,let me run my simple thoughts by you:

ecoearth...made from co co nuts,it also holds lots of water...why?

orchid bark,to a large extent coniferous in make up...why?

Now go out into a wood,pull back some deciduous bark from a dead tree,who fall on the floor...iso,when we last collected our subs for our woodilce,who was I chucking to one side...iso. Pick up some dead deciduous wood,who is underneath it

Mate I'm trying to make a point,we have all the ingredients of the best substrate for woodlice/isopods,staring us in the face here,it's where we find our natives,the oak leaves and cardboard,they will devour sure on the money.BUT, the other stuff I think might just be wasted space in a culture container,where it could be filled by something that will enhance the capacity of the woodlice to produce more,ie what they feed on naturally. Ok my logic some might say is flawed,we use tropical iso,they munch different stuff. That said you have just seen me pulling out iso from the cultures we make using all edible subs made from free ingredients here,it wasn't like I was struggling pulling X from a culture was it?

Linds there is an ethos here,nail the simple stuff,dig like hell for detail,try and know as much as you can ,but the simple things,ahh the little things and evaluating them taking them to the zenith to the "nth " degree is where it's at with livestock. I'm maybe being pedantic here kiddo,it isn't meant that way,I just want the best and easiest route for a newer guy than I,when I feel I have a sound method like these little guys ,I flag it. Some will use it and some not,it don't matter,me darts won't be lacking in food when all else crashes on me. Iso are the easy back up plan.

Linds after you left I got through all our iso cultures,just feeding,checking over misting the usual malarky,during which time say a good few hundred went into vivs,I guess that is the big picture,a few hundred didn't touch the sides of what I culture.

Oh kiddo,thought you might like to know all that Atachi malarky did yield a cool clutch of eggs,I pulled them late, here we go again:lol2:


Good luck mate

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> :lol2:man I had to didn't I
> 
> Linds, mud=soil...cool,let me run my simple thoughts by you:
> 
> ...


Oh Stu, you never fail to prompt my deep thinking lol.

My main concern with bringing in mud/soil/leaf litter from outside is introducing parasites / other bugs in that could contaminate my woodlice. I can definitely see why the benefits would outweigh the potential pitfalls, BUT, once they go in the viv they're going to be on cocosoil, orchid bark amongst other things, so would it not be a good idea to get them used to it now?

Or is it more a case of food, ie - in a tub, all they will have to eat is nothing bar what I put in if I keep them on cocosoil, but if I get leaf litter and so on they can munch on that, then once in the viv they've got frog poo amongst other things to eat?

Great news on your atachis! We absolutely loved watching them peeking their heads out of the hut, good to know they're not shy to get down to business in front of strangers :lol2:. I have developed a real soft spot for them since seeing them at yours.

We're back up north now, so much still to consider and organise, but we did manage to squeeze in a shopping trip to Ikea tonight for some more bits and bobs. Mega cheap storage boxes with lids ready for some big insect cultures.

The frog corner is now ready totally for the viv. Out of the eyeline of the dog, and the 'locker-style' unit is vented coincidentally, so we'll be keeping all the frogs bits and bobs in there . Last thing left to do is move my beloved picture.










Main focus for tomorrow is to get my beardie ready for surgery tomorrow  (fingers crossed she'll be ok. I've come home today and she's full of beans and started shedding too, so I'm hoping this is a good sign), and then in the evening we're off on a hunt for leaf litter to get all the woodlice fully set up and settled in.

Bedtime for now. Spent most of this evening tearing up cardboard and moving furniture around lol.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Lindsey, I mix leafmould and fallen leaves (mostly beech and sweet chesnut) into the mixes I use for the tropical woodlice- but I first nuke them for a couple of minutes in the microwave- which solves the predator/parasite issue for sure. The woods have to take their chances in the actual vivs, where the same materials are used but unsterilised, but they seem to cope- in the meantime, I always have more breeding in the cultures.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Haven't had a chance to get more leaves for the woodlice, but I'm venting the tubs and they're trundling about. Not long now till I can get them settled in to their proper tubs. Just want to get it sorted!! :bash:

Today has been nearly an 18 hour day, but thank god, my beardie has come through surgery. She's back home with me now, had some waxworms, and seems remarkably alright in herself. We're not out of the woods yet, and in all honesty the location and type of lump don't seem a positive sign at all, but I won't know for another week yet what's going on with her and whether it's cancer or not.

My lighting unit arrived today, super cheap single komodo waterproof ballast for the UV light, reflector, and 2% UV full spectrum daylight bulb. It's all working and mega simple, which means as soon as the viv comes I can get the plants in there while we're waiting for the moss to grow in


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Lindsay,so glad about the little fella,all digits crossed here for ya mate.

Linsay I'm basically with Ron,in that I'd really like to not nuke the stuff I put in viv. but dart guys have separate issues to other phib keepers,nemerteans/snails/slugs can all give degrees of problems for us. My first vivs were completely un treated,and some have nemerteans,some snails. So for me I nuke the hell out of all subs now,I actually go further,15 mins,in the microwave,everything must be wet though,I tend to wash all plants anyway and have used bleach 5/10% in the past,with a really thorough wash afterwards. All personal choice stuff. Mate i've got iso cultures that are years old now,it's somewhat surprising to me that a mono cuture can last SO long. So using the various ingredients above and making them sterile at onset must have some merit. Incidentally I think springtails benefit from a sterile set up even more. I've been wading through ours as some were starting to slow up a bit,but seeing dates of 2011 set up says it all for me.

Ha yup making you think was intended,it's not about my way being best,I don't think one can do that,all our set ups are so different,it's about options really,but one can only pass on what works best for oneself as a start point,for the next guy to hone.


taking shape mate:2thumb:
Take care kiddo

Stu.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

She's a little trooper and such a big weight off my mind. She's still got a long way to go, but seems positive at the moment, I doubt the results will be but as long as she's happy in the mean time .

I have set up my big springtail culture tonight!! Boiled up all the charcoal, let it cool, and they're all now merrily running about . Broke my plant mister somehow :bash: so need a new one of those. I am turning into such a colossal nerd. Really enjoy watching them all running about like mad.

Woodlice are next on the agenda. Quick question, I found some driftwood on the beach a few weeks ago, the dog got hold of it and chomped it up *sigh*, but he left lots of smaller chunks round the house. If I boil these and sterilise them can I put them in with my woodlice for them to eat? Seems a shame to put them in the garden waste if they can be used for food...


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Exciting day today! Viv is being delivered!

Epiweb arrived yesterday, so it's slowly coming together!! 

Completely agree that natural, where possible, is best! 3 day weekend now so we're off to woods to get some more decomposed leaf litter. At the moment the uk woodlice are in a big tub with a thin layer of orchid bark at the bottom, and some sterilised oak leaves on the top, along with a big piece of wet corrugated cardboard and a potato peeling. We had a flash thunderstorm yesterday so I put the whole tub outside to get nice and damp with rainwater. Once we have the decomposed sterilised leaf litter that will go in, but I felt guilty keeping them all with only some mud and a few dead leaves in an ice cream tub. I can't believe how mobile they are!! Constantly walking all over each other!

What is everyone's opinions on water for the tank? Rainwater is not an option as a - we live in rented accom and can't install a water butt, b - we could put containers out but trying to catch the amount we would need, we just wouldn't have enough.

My sundew plants can't have normal tap water, so what I use for them is boiled and then cooled tap water and they're doing great. Would this be a possibility or am I still running the risk of chemicals upsetting the balance?

Other options are, buying a reverse osmosis unit, using tap water with a water conditioner like I do for my beardie (Zoo Med Reptisafe | Swell Reptiles) or buying cheap bottled water and using that.

Interested to know people's preferences?!


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> She's a little trooper and such a big weight off my mind. She's still got a long way to go, but seems positive at the moment, I doubt the results will be but as long as she's happy in the mean time .
> 
> I have set up my big springtail culture tonight!! Boiled up all the charcoal, let it cool, and they're all now merrily running about . Broke my plant mister somehow :bash: so need a new one of those. I am turning into such a colossal nerd. Really enjoy watching them all running about like mad.
> 
> Woodlice are next on the agenda. Quick question, I found some driftwood on the beach a few weeks ago, the dog got hold of it and chomped it up *sigh*, but he left lots of smaller chunks round the house. If I boil these and sterilise them can I put them in with my woodlice for them to eat? Seems a shame to put them in the garden waste if they can be used for food...


Hey mate,
linds,I wouldn't use unknown wood froma beach,partly because I have no idea on how to remove the salt,partly because I prefer to use wood that I can identify as being safe,for both the frogs and iso,so oak beech ash hazel elder alder plum apple should all be ok. For me oak and plum are my usual woods used,the iso love them and I've used for a long time now without issue.

Ican't help much on water mate,out here I'm comfy with my rainwater,but appreciate not all are as lucky as we are,good luck kiddo have fun take your time,say hey to Mark for me

best


Stu


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

In terms of water, the conditioner you already use should be fine, as are all the standard ones sold for aquaria. I agree with Stu about driftwood, especially in terms of the salt content- I sometimes use interesting bits of driftwood in my reptile tanks, but I don't with any of my phibs or the woodlouse cultures. In your walks in the woods, it is usually quite easy to find bits of crumbly rotting wood- nuked in the same way as the leafmould, it's fine.


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

be careful using potato peelings, if they get too wet you will end up with lots of little white worms


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Cheers guys,

I've shaken off and taken out the potato. Better to make the mistake now! Someone online said they love it, but I'm guessing they keep them as pets rather than eventually planning for them to go into a frog tank.

Viv was delivered yesterday, poor Dale got mobbed by the dog. We've moved the furniture again, so our frog corner now looks like this;










Much nicer and more logical layout.

Cleaned and prepped the viv for ready for silicone. Lined the top with black tape so we can have a neat edge where the silicone ends.










And here's Ted helping me cut the epiweb down to size...


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## grizzlymonkyboy (Jan 15, 2011)

PigeonYouDead said:


> Cheers guys,
> 
> I've shaken off and taken out the potato. Better to make the mistake now! Someone online said they love it, but I'm guessing they keep them as pets rather than eventually planning for them to go into a frog tank.
> 
> ...


nice big shinny helmet you have in PIC 1 in the background :no1: 


sorry couldn't resit


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

grizzlymonkyboy said:


> nice big shinny helmet you have in PIC 1 in the background :no1:
> 
> 
> sorry couldn't resit


*Sighs*


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

So, nipped down the woods today to get the leaf litter and some wood for the tank.

Picked up lots of leaf litter and twigs and blitzed the lot in the microwave, saturated with water for 8 mins. Saw several dead mini worm things, and one dead slug, so confident I've killed any nematodes in there and so on.

Here are the woodlice, with their new leaf litter and some nice rotting wood to eat.










The other thing that we did is silicone the tank. My god, it has got to be some of the most disgusting stuff I've ever worked with. For a start, I had no idea it absolutely STINKS of vinegar. Fumes hit us in the face a good few times. Hopefully now, we're nearly done though. We've stuck damp coco fibre to the walls and fitted in the trimmed down epiweb to the back, so as soon as that is all cured and dried we can trim the base down and fit that in too.










The slight gap at the LH side and top are for the epiweb spray bar. Once it's all cured and dried and stable, we can fit the tubing back in, attach the pump and start getting the water pumping round so we can paint the moss on. The plan is that the whole back wall will be covered in moss, ferns, etc and our little orchid.

I'm not putting any plants in until these fumes are gone though, at the moment they're still in a cupcake tray in the kitchen, so hopefully not too much longer and we can get them in as they're not in ideal situation at the moment.

I'll be hopefully putting in a parlour palm in a pot in front of the side tube to conceal that and the cable for the pump. There's a trap door cut into the epiweb at the front to allow you access to the pump, so I've picked up a stone covered in moss today at the woods to put on top of that so I don't have to disturb the whole tank to access it.

How best to sterilise aforementioned stone? I can put it in the microwave, but will that not kill the moss too? Same goes with some gorgeous pieces of wood with lichen growing on it.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> How best to sterilise aforementioned stone? I can put it in the microwave, but will that not kill the moss too? Same goes with some gorgeous pieces of wood with lichen growing on it.


To be honest, there is no way to have both. You can pour boiling water over the stone (to be honest, I wouldn't recommend nuking it in the microwave- cavities, especially those with water in, could make it explode!) and lose the moss and lichen, or you can take your chances. These are pretty much your choices.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Linds might be another way re stone,pop the whole thing in water let it soak so the moss is fully hydrated. Then wack the thing in 5% domestos,ie bleach,knocked back with froggy water to 5% for 5 mins,then straight into more froggy safe water and repeat and repeat,it might clobber the moss might not?

Damn!! damp ecoearth is ringing alarm bells mate,I hope it goes well,silicone repels water,I would have gone for bone dry,but that said I've never done it this way,so as always hope you prove me wrong:2thumb:

iso culture...rock'n' roll great stuff:no1:
good luck kiddo

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> Linds might be another way re stone,pop the whole thing in water let it soak so the moss is fully hydrated. Then wack the thing in 5% domestos,ie bleach,knocked back with froggy water to 5% for 5 mins,then straight into more froggy safe water and repeat and repeat,it might clobber the moss might not?
> 
> Damn!! damp ecoearth is ringing alarm bells mate,I hope it goes well,silicone repels water,I would have gone for bone dry,but that said I've never done it this way,so as always hope you prove me wrong:2thumb:
> 
> ...


Interesting you say that, because another person on here said that damp eco earth sticks better?? It wasn't dripping wet, just followed the instructions on the packet to get it to a useable texture, so fingers crossed , it comes in a compressed block and you could break a window with it initially.

Will know in 48 hours once the silicone is totally cured and it's all over the floor of the viv... (I might hulk smash the thing if it all falls off haha).

Microwaved the stone, submerged in water. Luckily no asplosions :blowup:, and done the same with the wood. Several little dead wood worms floating around, so taking that as a good sign, so just leaving them out to dry a bit before I put them in the cupboard.

One other thing; is there anything more disgusting than a microwaved slug?


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

So I have a thin layer of cocosoil stuck to the silicone after brushing off the excess, thank god it's not all fallen off!! I'm going to put another layer of silicone on tomorrow, and apply dryer cocosoil this time, so hopefully I can build up a better textured and thicker wall. Also going to pack some fine orchid bark in there too so it's a bit more chunky.

Had some sad news today that my beardie does have cancer and unfortunately it's an aggressive type which has already spread to her intercostal muscles (muscles between her ribs). Given that, I'm going to be focusing on her as I don't know how long she's got left, and will probably keep this tank as a plant tank for a few months to let in settle while I get to grips with how she's coping.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Gutted mate,just good luck,we get all this joy from our animals ,but tis damn hard sometimes

take care kiddo

Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

hey, i have been following this thread from a distance, since our chat at BAKS it looks like you have made some real headway, great stuff!

I told you the Attachis are awesome, have you settled on them? 


Sad to hear about the beardie, at least shes had a long fulfilled life, you must have looked after her greatly. :2thumb:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

PigeonYouDead said:


> So I have a thin layer of cocosoil stuck to the silicone after brushing off the excess, thank god it's not all fallen off!! I'm going to put another layer of silicone on tomorrow, and apply dryer cocosoil this time, so hopefully I can build up a better textured and thicker wall. Also going to pack some fine orchid bark in there too so it's a bit more chunky.
> 
> Had some sad news today that my beardie does have cancer and unfortunately it's an aggressive type which has already spread to her intercostal muscles (muscles between her ribs). Given that, I'm going to be focusing on her as I don't know how long she's got left, and will probably keep this tank as a plant tank for a few months to let in settle while I get to grips with how she's coping.


Sad news- good thoughts coming your way!


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Cheers guys 

She seems ok in herself. She had a bath this morning to try and help get some of her shedding skin off, and she's still got a great appetite. Will just be a wait and see jobby. Vet didn't give me an ETA on lifespan as obviously they don't know how far the cancer has spread already, so I just want to make the most of the time we have left. Although it's sad, it's almost a relief; I know when I saw a relative die of cancer two years ago we had been told it was terminal, and so we all made more of an effort to spend time with her and visit her as we knew her time was limited. Realistically, if she hadn't have had that diagnosis, we would have carried on seeing her less often and then likely regretted not spending more time with her when she was alive. I know that it was only in her last 2/3 days that she began to suffer, and I would imagine, and hope, it will probably take a similar peaceful route with Gizmo.

Haven't quite settled on a particular morph. One thing that really surprised me when we went to MAD is that my bf was really into the thumbnail species. I think it's down to the fact they look almost metallic, but he really liked Stu's mysties too! Can see that one tank isn't going to be enough! Haha Whilst I love the teeny tiny frogs, I just think as beginners we want chunkier ones that are a bit more forgiving while we're still learning. It's definitely going to be tincs in some way shape or form for this tank.


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

Hi All,

Been away from the forum for a bit, but I'm back now with some news on the tank!

So, once we were confident the first layer of cocosoil had stuck to the first layer of silicone, we put lots of random blobs and additional layers of silicone on and packed this out with a mix of orchid bark, granulated cork bark and more cocosoil (dried out in the microwave this time so it was dry as a bone). We wanted to have a bit more texture on the sides, in the hope we can mound some airplants on them / encourage some trailing plants to climb.










We left it to cure for a week until we were sure it was rock solid and no longer giving out fumes. Next thing was to measure and cut the epiweb base layer down to size. Luckily it fit pretty well and we had a few pieces left over to fill the gaps.

One thing we noticed was that it was sagging in a few places where the epiweb struts were there to support it. As we're planting on top of it and will have decor in the tank too, we decided to fill the base with hydroballs to support it and help filter the water going through the pump. We connected the hosing into the back piece, and then hooked up the pipes that go underneath the epiweb. I should have got some pictures while we were doing it, but *someone* ahem, has lost my camera memory card so I just have my phone for now. The clear plastic tube runs under the epiweb, and is connected to the pump mounted at the front with a piece of flexible silicone tubing. I will get a picture of that using the trapdoor.

We've filled the bottom with water and had the pump running and it looks great. Here's a little crappy video I took to show it working 

IMG_7276_zpsa76b532a.mp4 Video by Linzi322 | Photobucket

As of tonight, we've now covered the floor in our soil mix, and started moving the plants and decor around. We've still got some more plants to get, but this gives us a great start. The slate sits directly over the trapdoor, so that we can find it if we need to fiddle with the pump, and we're also planning to feed the frogs here as well.










We're still not sure on where we're going to put each of the plants, but I really like where the mangrove roots and hut are at the moment as it reminds me of a hollow at the base of a tree.

Eventually, the whole back piece will be covered in moss, along with any bare pieces of epiweb, and once payday swings by I'll be buying a couple of extra plants too.

Heating wise, we have a heat cable which is running along the bottom buried in the substrate and will be on thermostat controlled, as our front room is always cool. We've also got a hygrometer, the lighting set up and the misting system ready to go.

So excited  Any feedback or suggestions, please pipe up!! As we don't want to make mistakes and have to pull it all out again!

Cheers

Lindsay


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

I think it looks great Linds,once the epiweb fills in it's going to look fab with all the ferns and mosses at the back. I concur with the back right corner,love it.

Two little things not constructive criticism just thoughts really,the verisa at the back,will need to be raised up a tad,it must get enough drainage around the base or it's likely to rot,it (if i've got the right one),is going to get pretty large too. Always difficult assessing size in a viv from a picture,but if I'm in the ball park say double where it is now. Second I think you might need a bit of wood or stones lying across the front. Once you have your top layer of whole leaves in,I suspect the froggies will move alot of them(little buggers:bash to the front and cover the front vent. Mine are masters at doing this,even with bits of wood lying paralell to the doors I'm always pulling bits out of the ditch.

Cracking mate,good for you

best

Stu


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## PigeonYouDead (Aug 9, 2013)

soundstounite said:


> I think it looks great Linds,once the epiweb fills in it's going to look fab with all the ferns and mosses at the back. I concur with the back right corner,love it.
> 
> Two little things not constructive criticism just thoughts really,the verisa at the back,will need to be raised up a tad,it must get enough drainage around the base or it's likely to rot,it (if i've got the right one),is going to get pretty large too. Always difficult assessing size in a viv from a picture,but if I'm in the ball park say double where it is now. Second I think you might need a bit of wood or stones lying across the front. Once you have your top layer of whole leaves in,I suspect the froggies will move alot of them(little buggers:bash to the front and cover the front vent. Mine are masters at doing this,even with bits of wood lying paralell to the doors I'm always pulling bits out of the ditch.
> 
> ...


Verisa? The bromeliad thing left hand corner? Yeah, I'm hoping to put in the middle of the viv as a feature, as I don't like it in that corner anyway.

Will get some aquarium pebble things to go across the front in front of the vent, I had wondered if that was going to happen!!

Quick question for you all, how do you heat your vivs? I've bought a zoomed heating cable, with the intention of submerging it in the substrate to heat it gently from the bottom and increase humidity, although it says on the instructions not to bury it for some reason??

Help please!!


Thanks

Lindsay


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