# this rabbit sooty fawn too??? very grey?lilac??



## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

mother black self bred from black x fawn
father copper satin from copper satin

in the litter
2 black satins
1 fawn
1 sooty fawn

and?? same ' markings' as a sooty fawn but no ticking in the coat and very grey/lilac with beige/brown on top
sorry not the best pictures they wont sit still:lol2:








one in middle















next to the sooty fawn















fawn.... ??.... sooty fawn


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## saxon12 (Mar 7, 2012)

don't have a clue but awww :flrt: they are well cute


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

whats a copper satin when its at home? 
lol.
do you mean an orange? got a piccie?

you`ve got a beige there ( genetically its a dilute/blue sooty fawn )

and your sooty fawn is either a marten or an otter sooty fawn ( an unstandardised colour )

other ones look orange and black

so your black carries non extension of black ( aka sooty fawn ) and blue ( cuz it gave you a beige ) and your "copper" must carry the tan pattern.

your not goting to get lilacs from that mating, a lilac is a dilute chocolate


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

I was just going to say that the sooty fawn looks like a sooty otter to me
and the other one is a beige.
The fawn one looks orange to me from that pic

I am also intrigued what a copper satin is.

I didnt think that the tan pattern could carry??


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

The one you are saying is Sooty looks Agouti to me which would explain you saying ticking in the coat :2thumb:. Can you get a better pic of this one please? Does the coat when you separate it have bands of colour in it? It definately isn't a Sooty as you can clearly see the Agouti in the pic below :2thumb:.


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

here is the copper satin buck









this pic has made him a fraction darker then what he is.

the sooty fawn rabbit isnt agouti..... well no agouti rabbits iv seen ever have the daker sides ears nose and tail... just like the sooty fawns but i must say its very over ticked prob come from the buck? will check to see if there are any bands in the coat.

more baby pictures


























































the fawn has slight ticked coat too which orange isnt ment to????


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

the copper satin is an agouti.

tan pattern is recessive to agouti 
tan pattern is dominant to self.

sooty fawn is a self rabbit genentically, its a black with the non extension of black taking out the black pigment.

cant tell wether the other one is a very pale bad orange or a fawn from that picture....you`d have to look closely at the ticking on its ears and near the rump to see wether the guard hairs were blue or black.
i`m leaning towards a bad orange though. 
you`ve got an orange because of dad being an agouti.
orange is an agouti with the black taken out by the e gene

the baby is a sooty otter.
you can see the sooty shading down the sides
the dark top is confusing peeps and making it look ticked when it isnt.
quite a few baby sootys are dark topped as babies, especially if they are black bred, it usually clears when they are older.

have a look at my baby, this is a sooty but look how dark his top is...you have to click on the piccy to make it bigger


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> the copper satin is an agouti.
> 
> tan pattern is recessive to agouti
> tan pattern is dominant to self.
> ...




brilliant thanks it may well be a bad orange seeing as not pure orange bred as no where near the shade my old orange lop doe was. 
thanks piggly


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> the copper satin is an agouti.
> 
> tan pattern is recessive to agouti
> tan pattern is dominant to self.
> ...



I think if i remember Agouti in Satins is called Castor (like in Rex). That kit is very chinchillated, it could be a bad Orange that is very chinchillated. I still say it is Agouti of some sort, it is not a Sooty of any sort as the shading is all wrong (i bred Sooty/Beige Mini Lops & it looks nothing like anything we bred). You just need to look at your Sooty & then this other one, no comparison.


ETA: Just noticed too that the kit in question has eye circles, Sooty Fawns don't have eye circles (this is an Agouti trait).


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

Yep agouti is called castor in satins.

Sooty otters have huge eye circles i had one as a pet years ago. and I had a sooty otter pop up in a litter last year.
They do look very different to proper sootys. and dont forget how many different shades that sooty seams to come in anyway breeders have there type of colour. some have the very very dark looking shade and some beed very wishy washy colour

Just a something to chuck in the mix, is the black actually a black and not a very dark sable. does it have a red glow to the eye?


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

that baby is not an agouti.

it is a sooty otter 

not only has it got white eye circles, 
it also has the white underside which is affecting the body colour and is fading the sides, 
and it has white inside its ears
plus if you look you can see the sooty side shadings.

i too have bred and exhibited and judged sooty fawn lops, they`re not an easy colour to breed, too dark and you loose the rich top colour, too pale and you loose the defined sooty shading and you get white tails which are a bad fault and if the tails totally white they can get disqualified.

this is a good coloured sooty minilop









and these are orange and fawn - you can see the dark ticking on the orange coming through already


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

The times i have seen sootys with white tales and not even an eye gets lifted. It is a difficult colour to get right (unless your a sooty breeder down south then he has the best sootys lol) I do like the darker colour ones certian people call them dirty sootys lol

I show and breed sooty mini lops at the mo it was the first litter i ever had.
Give me a REW anyday you dont have to pee about with colour then lmao


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> image


the bigger ones looks like my rabbit Jeremy  can you tell me if he's a fawn? I have pics in my sig, i've called him cream coloured


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

Hammyhogbun said:


> The times i have seen sootys with white tales and not even an eye gets lifted. It is a difficult colour to get right
> I show and breed sooty mini lops at the mo it was the first litter i ever had.
> Give me a REW anyday you dont have to pee about with colour then lmao


you can get away with a white flash, but a totally white tail and you`re back to your pen,lol.

rew`s are fab, but then you`ve got the aggro of keeping them out the sun so they dont turn yellow, and washing the blinking feet in vanish soap!



samurai said:


> the bigger ones looks like my rabbit Jeremy  can you tell me if he's a fawn? I have pics in my sig, i've called him cream coloured


mommy bun is a fawn and baby bunny is an orange.
i`ve tried to have a look in your albums, but the piccies are massive and pixelated on my screen.
i think you might have one of each colour?
the way to tell is look around the fur on their bum by their tail. see if you have black ticking on there.
black ticking means bun is orange
( the depth of colour can be very variable )
blue ticking means bun is fawn


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## samurai (Sep 9, 2009)

The pics are massive :blush: I think he is a fawn from your description


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

lol.

nice looking buns though :2thumb: all happy streached out and floppy


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

pigglywiggly said:


> you can get away with a white flash, but a totally white tail and you`re back to your pen,lol.


 
Not at shows i have been too :whistling2:
But minis do tend to get away with murder with some judges :lol2:


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

hmm breeder sold him to me as copper:bash:...... ohhh only thought castor was rex only. 

yes i wasnt 100% sure that it wasnt agouti

thanks guys :no1:


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

:blush: i used to have a satin buck that colour too.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

Hammyhogbun said:


> Not at shows i have been too :whistling2:
> But minis do tend to get away with murder with some judges :lol2:


 
the lop world is awfully cliquey :whistling2: 

i`d disq a lop with a totally white tail, a clump of 6 white hairs, weighing 3lb 4oz in the u/5 class or with a white toe nail.
i`m vile me

:lol2:


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

I dont think its the lop world thats like that its just the mini world that is. The drama at london says it all lol
Dont get the same dramas with the other breeds lmao


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

you tried showing these? :lol2:


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

No, havnt gone down the dwarf route
Although i did quite like the REW in the bradford auction I went up to £82 i think it was and was like umm i dont have anymore money with me :lol2: so the other person must of really really really wanted him. It was a shame as i wanted him, looked an easy bis win or at least best fancy down this way :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I did just show that pic to hubby and he was like does that need a home lmao


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

the dwarfs can be as bad as minilops.......

and no he isnt looking for a home :Na_Na_Na_Na: he`s an old man with a few grey hairs now.

who`s white was it? didnt think there were many good uns around anymore?


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## Hammyhogbun (May 19, 2011)

I stay out of politics. I didnt realise dwarfs were bad. but theres not too many dwarfy people down this way.

Oh bless him, bet he did well in his time.

I dont remember whos it was. It was lovely though.


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

he has a nice pile of cc`s and best foxes at stock shows
his son has a nice pile of 2nd cards,lol.
never had a bis though, ( have with lops ) think the closest i`ve had is 3rd overall @ the national
but thats fine as long as we`re before the whites and otters :blush:


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> that baby is not an agouti.
> 
> it is a sooty otter
> 
> ...




Here's a Fawn i had










An Orange


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

lovely side face profile on the oddinge :2thumb:


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> the lop world is awfully cliquey :whistling2:
> 
> i`d disq a lop with a totally white tail, a clump of 6 white hairs, weighing 3lb 4oz in the u/5 class or with a white toe nail.
> i`m vile me
> ...



So you should too :2thumb:. 3lb 4oz as an u/5 :devil:.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Hammyhogbun said:


> The times i have seen sootys with white tales and not even an eye gets lifted. It is a difficult colour to get right (unless your a sooty breeder down south then he has the best sootys lol) I do like the darker colour ones certian people call them dirty sootys lol
> 
> I show and breed sooty mini lops at the mo it was the first litter i ever had.
> Give me a REW anyday you dont have to pee about with colour then lmao



Brian Rideout used to have some of the best Sooty Mini Lops down this way, is he still about? Yes i too have seen many with completely white tails get put up B.O.B :gasp::gasp::gasp:. REW's do have the best type i must admit & you have no colour faults to worry about :whistling2:. I also bred Tort Dutch (evil little B:censor:s that they are) & their colour varied so much in one litter.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

pigglywiggly said:


> lovely side face profile on the oddinge :2thumb:



I think that was one of our foundation Bucks, i can't remember exactly now as it was many years ago & i had so many Mini's in that time :whistling2:. Yes he had great type & a head to die for, in fact the Agouti i still have is probably descended from him.

ETA: The Agouti i have now is Grandson to the Orange in the pic (just checked my ibreed for his record). Must try & get a pic of the Agouti, he'll be 6 next month.


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

do you think a netherland doe can be TOO SMALL for breeding??
as a very nice little doe iv kept back she is quite small. she is rising 6 months now so shouldnt think she will grow much more.........


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

what does she weigh?

if she`s around 2lb when mature and not fat i would try her twice, probly in another month or two?

to be honest i half expect the first litter of neddies to be stillborn anyhows.......its usually the rolls of fat does carry that crush the babies when they are born that results in dead babies rather than the size of mom

bill parish`s sooty dwarf lops are :flrt: cant really think of anyone breeding stunning minis consistently?


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## giant snail (Oct 25, 2009)

none of my rabbits are ever fat.
cant stand fat animals its cruel and often ruins thier aperance for life like a young netherland doe i bought she had a dewlap under her chin and round her rear FFS i really do hate over weight animals:devil: ( rant over, i see too many fat animals these days!:lol2. both does i have bred from diff does are nice and small same as the bucks but one doe is teeny. ill weigh her and see. nice little rabbit though!




pigglywiggly said:


> what does she weigh?
> 
> if she`s around 2lb when mature and not fat i would try her twice, probly in another month or two?
> 
> ...


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