# Taking the 'Hobby' too far - The Sequel



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Taking the hobby too far – The Sequel


Many of you use this word in association with the keeping of animals.

Why?

I have hobbies, true hobbies as l consider them; reading, writing, films and the collecting of films [as some of you will know], computer gaming.

But the keeping of animals is not something in which l would class as a hobby.

Those that are in positions of opposition are infuriated by the mis –use of the word hobby when it comes down to exotic keepers! And tbh l can see why.

Surely a hobby is something which you can place down one day and return to another day?

This is not something that you can do with animals, they are or should be a full time responsibility.

As someone recently said to me "I see a hobby as something you do in your spare time that you enjoy - living with animals is a full time thing and more along the lines of a job for me"

Animals and the responsibility that surrounds the keeping of animals is just that, a full time occupation.

This leads to another line of thought, and in many ways encapsulates a thread raised by Andy B recently entitled ‘Taking the Hobby too Far".

In many ways l can see where Andy is coming from, in others l think he titled the thread wrong.

But how many animals does one keeper really need in their collection?

Seriously…..

How many is too many?

I read up and down this forum, keepers constantly, stating, l must have this, l must have that, just one more of this, and one more of that………………

Is it that the larger the collection of animals that you have the more you feel like a ‘real keeper?’

The more you have keeps you up to speed with the Smiths and Jones’s?
Where does a keeper draw the line?

When finances expire? When you ‘mature’ as a keeper?

How long can some of you continue to collect these exotics before the care angle is lost, is it just enough that you feed and water them? 

What about environmental care?

Does this not matter?

What happens if through all this collecting you are not offering those within your responsibility the RIGHT care, the BEST care?

I have seen a few threads of late where upon l am convinced that certain keepers only see animals as ‘cuddlies’ as ‘living toys’.

FGS if you want a cuddly, or a toy, then buy from the appropriate source and not from a livestock producer – l hear digital animatronics is racing forwards in leaps and bounds now, and that virtually any animal is available via the right market! 

I am sorry, but l am under no disillusionment with this market, although l fear many others are – l think in many respects the antis have it right – many keepers are not only abusing a simple word, but many others may be abusing those within their collections.


What are your views?

Rory Matier
TSKA-Rainbow - PKLKA


----------



## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

TSKA Rory Matier said:


> Taking the hobby too far – The Sequel
> 
> 
> Many of you use this word in association with the keeping of animals.
> ...


 
I completely agree with you, ask for sticky


----------



## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Good post Rory: victory:

There are far too many within reptile keeping who keep animals as status symbols or simply impulse buy until the next big fad comes along then the 'regretful sale but need to make room for (insert species here)' adverts turn up.


----------



## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

There are more than a few people on here with collections i would class as unmanageable. There cant be any fun derived from cleaning out 40 cages all the time, is there time left for 'quality' time with the animals? Can you really notice behavioural changes? Get to know the personalities of the animals and what id deem as thoroughly enjoy them?

Financially how does one cope, both with food and electricity costs and vets bills. The larger the collection the higher the chance a vet will be needed.

I will only ever what i want, it isnt a competition. It isnt pokemon, you dont have to catch them all. As Grant said on here, if i cant provide the best possible care for them due to time constraints then ive got too many. 

Unfortunately people who think animals as 'cuddlies' and 'living toys' are the people who end up abusing animals. That fill rehoming centres, that get meerkats in singles, feed the wrong food etc, these people are hurting a living thing through ignorance. Its deemed abuse if its a child or a human, but it seems to be brushed over if its an animal. 

Would restrictions on collection size work? How would it be enforced? There are only so many hours in a day and there will get to a point where you cant care for a large collection with even that time frame, but do people stop? No. Whether it be pride, ignorance or just stupidity people with go on and in some cases see the animal die than admit they cant cope.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Well raised Zak, 

Time, we all have 24 hours to a given day.

I run a business which involves working with animals and l thoroughly enjoy it, yeah it can be stressful - more so than some may realise.

Mostly the stresses come from the buyers and keepers rather than from the actual animals, but l enjoy it. I am still working with animals but from a distance. My responsibility now is making sure that other keepers 'get it right' and for my sins of being strict and hard l am punnished on more levels than most genuine keepers would want.

But this is a business and as such a client orientated business, which means that although my consultancy hours are 5 days per week at 12 hour days. I am on call seven days a week, and sometimes receive calls at 'unhealthy hours'.

I used to have a very large collection of exotics and commercial animals alike, which was also a business of production and supply.

The exotics l had on board were costly, and time consuming and at times heart breaking, financially expensive.

I gave this up, because tbh, l grew tired of running that type of business, l had been doing so for some twelve years and it makes you weary as a breeder, long hours, again heart breaking times, ruinously expensive and very taxing on other things - such as relationships, hobbies, social calendars, friends.

I ran a huge range of animals, some 60 odd species in total, now as a commercial breeder, you are feeding, watering and cleaning, then it was a seven day a week job starting from 7am and finishing at about 10pm at night. Then you slept! Then you started again.

Animals are a full time responsibility, always, no turn arounds, it has to be done, its a committment of your life into many other lives. Fail it, and you fail them.

The exotics were even more time consuming, because of the same as above, feeding, watering, cleaning - but also the focus was on environmental stimulation, the dietary was at many times very specific, the cleaning was also different - for it involved different substrates, interaction also was a requirement by some of my species.

It - in all - was very time consuming.

But in 2005 l had had enough, l was worn out.

It was not that l was tired with animals - far from it, but had become as said - weary, exhausted. I needed a change. But l had 12 years behind me, and a wealth of information. But there were other reasons for change:

New legislation, higher financing requirements, ethics, and so on - l was changing - l was becoming more aware of things on the political agenda - but above all l realised that - as much as l was providing my animals with the care that they needed - was l really providing the right care?

Was the commercial side of the operation really needed? 

I stopped that side of things earlier in 2004 and was in the process of slimming down. But then l looked at the exotic side of my collection and realised that in order to really offer the level of care that was needed, it was going to be a very costly affair. So after much deliberation, decided that l would stop.

On the premise that should l recommence my own personal collection of exotics again, l would run a much smaller scaled collection, where upon l could dedicate much more of my time to them and really offer the RIGHT care and the BEST care possible.

Now l have Meerkats, Skunks and a host of smaller animals present with Nerys's collection and mine combined, we do everything possible to ensure that we have the right level of care with them, all catered to correctly, and even this is tiring, expensive.

So you see, this is why l look at others and l truly wonder, is everyone offering the right level of care to their animals? 

As l change more so every week politically, morally, ethically, and look at the state of play in the market place, l still ask myself, are we really doing enough for our animals?

R

R


----------



## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

Tbh If you had 500 but had the time, experience and money (and to know you have it in the future) to care of them i have no problem, its just people wo live ina flat and have loads, and this business of hidng large collecitons, if you were found out who would home them?

I have (exotic wise because i dont have to pay for my 2 rabbits and guinea pig's food and i have all teh time to handle and look after these) 2 GALS's, 1 corn snake and soon a crestie, and though the idea of a hognose is appealing, i have to tihnk realistically i wont have money or time for that, so i write it off, it seems omse people are unable to do this, adnt he people that go into a pet shop to buy food and come out with a new snake. Tbh Control yourself! I can!


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

You are right, in many ways the crippler to various collections is impulse buying.

This obvioulsy happens with reptiles, and l sure as hell know it happens with mammals.

As said, animals are just so easy to obtain.

If not retail, then shows. If not purchases, then barters.

How many is too many?

How many diversifications of species does one keeper need to host in a collection?

It is tempting as a novice keeper l suppose to want to have 'as many different' species as you can.

R


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I used to have an unmanageable collection and I am not scared to admit that I was once a keeper who felt the more animals I kept, the more species I had under 1 roof, the more I became a "proper" keeper. 

I found myself at a point with around 85 reptiles in the house, my dining room non-existent for vivs and equipment, my children being put 2nd for feeding and cleaning and the huge routine of reptilesm my bills rising and electricity running out faster than ever - then I also found my husband offering me the ultimate decision - him or the reptiles.

We talked a lot and whilst I knew I wasn't being realistic and, honestly, wasn't able to ofer 100% of the care the various species required, I had never thought of it before.

I suppose you could say I matured a little as a keeper and a person and realised I had to do the right thing by cutting right back. Many people, including some who I called friends, really stabbed me in the back over my decision and made me feel even more of a bad keeper but hey ho such is life.

Anyhow - enough of a babble off me!! I do get carried away at times hey!

I don't agree with keeping being classed as a hobby as it simply isn't - whether you have 1 or 100 animals, they are still a full time job and still need 100% committment. A hobby you can walk away from and forget for a few days - that isn't so with an animal.


----------



## Rain (Oct 9, 2007)

My personal opinion, regardless of if you should choose to call it a hobby or not, is that when you can no longer find the time to offer one to one with each and every animal you own, that is when it has gone too far. I admit that I have a lot of animals in what is a relitivly small house. However, I take the time, and spend the money to make sure that they all get the care they require. Every snake (within reason) gets handled, every gerbil gets a clean cage, plenty to chew etc. every dog gets time to play. Every day!

I devote a lot of my "spare" time to my animals, and admit that I often choose to stay home and watch my fish tank rather than go out. I prefer the company of my dogs over a lot of people, and as such I am more than willing to give them all the attention that I can.

I do have a large collection of animals by comparison to some, however, so long as I have the time to offer each and everyone one of them, I know that I've not taken it to the point where I'm keeping them for the sake of keeping them.


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

A hobby is defined in the dictionary as



> An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.


There is no time limit, work amount, or cost that you can stick on something and say you're doing that 20 hours a week - it's no longer a hobby, it's a job.

People take their passion to the extreme. I think it's good that people are so passionate and so enthusiastic about their collections.

Can animals be a hobby? The thing is, because reptiles are not seen as emotive animals, they are more collectable, if that makes sense. They are often not family members as a dog or a cat might be, they are collections. I don't know if that's justifiable or not, as a business my opinions on large collections of reptiles are not necessarily the same as a private individual.

I do believe that more and more stress seems to be being placed on people to actually BREED their reptiles. Practically everyone these days wants to make some money off their pets - and in 90% of the time it is breeding to make money, not breeding for the love of it. If most people were breeding and giving offspring away, they wouldn't do it. The amount of keepers who are trying to turn their reptiles into moneyfarms is getting alarming. Those people are not experienced, they are not quarantining, they are buying to sell, with no protection for the animal or the buyer, and this is disturbing me greatly.

A hobby is a passion, if you expand your hobby because you want to make money off it - it is a business. A hobby and a business are very different things.


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Athravan said:


> A hobby is defined in the dictionary as
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Excellent post, and very true.

I agree, the days of just wanting to keep an animal for the pleasure of doing so, apparently seem to have disappeared.

You are spot on, so many keepers are turning their animals into money making ventures or productions lines for income.

Someone told me the other day that they did so, so they could pay for their collection...........mmm.

But collection is the right word also, l would rather see the term passionate collector, rather than obsessive hoarder, as the antis refer to us anyway as.

G/Post Christy and valuable, because you have quite rightly made the distinction between individual keeper and that of a retail business.

R


----------



## ChrisBowman (Jan 1, 2008)

STICKY STICKY STICKY STICKY :lol2:


----------



## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

As I said Within a minute i could find a "I was supposed to just get some crickets", or "How do i hide this rep" etc. I am probably the youngest, or one of the younger members on this forum, and as much as i love animals, i am aware that it is illegal anyway for me to buy pets, but still even when i see a beautiful rep in a shop, the thought doesnt cross my mind to buy it and if it does it is gone in a second when i think "Do i have money, time and space for this?"

So why do people who admit that they have high bills, Still buy these animals? And then a while later, enexpected circumstance soccur, i.e. toomany reps int heir flat, not enough money and they have to get sold. IMO its se;fish to buy an animal that you havent researched and then the an imal has to go through all the stres ooff being sold if those circumstances occur. I remember someone was going to take out a loan to buy some very expensive snakes, tbh, if when i was older i hve to take a loan out to buy some thing (unless its urgent like medical attention) i would just wait till i have enough of my own money saved.

/rant over


----------



## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

I do admit if I go out for livefood and see a nice looking lizard etc I do think "ooooh! I'd quite like that", but luckily common sense always seems to kick in, my main thoughts being if I get this will we be able to care for it properly, will I still be able to spend as much time on my more demanding species, by demanding they need a fair bit of enrichment and time spent on them that isn't cleaning/maintanence or feeding, and will we be able to afford the electric.

I first felt when I joined this forum that the people with a massive sig of what they have must have been the better keepers, better than me because I only had leos at the time. But the more I realise that that is not always the case, there are those who keep a lot of species who are very good keepers indeed, but then there are a lot with a sig as long as your arm because they "have to have another" and want the biggest collection. I have seen a few lists of what people are picking up from Hamm, and some of them are long lists ontop of what they already have. To me coming home with 10+ new animals is ridiculous. It takes enough time to get one animal settled and get to know their preferences, never mind 10! You have to draw a line somewhere surely??

We have 10 lizards with 2 of us caring for them. We are looking for a few more but these are of a species I already keep and the addition of them to the individuals I have will be of benefit to my existing animals. I am looking to expand over and get a snake at some point. But that point is far off, when I have more time and a decent enough job.

: victory:


----------



## miffikins (Feb 25, 2007)

Good post by the way, think it should be a sticky

: victory:


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

miffikins said:


> I do admit if I go out for livefood and see a nice looking lizard etc I do think "ooooh! I'd quite like that", but luckily common sense always seems to kick in, my main thoughts being if I get this will we be able to care for it properly, will I still be able to spend as much time on my more demanding species, by demanding they need a fair bit of enrichment and time spent on them that isn't cleaning/maintanence or feeding, and will we be able to afford the electric.
> 
> I first felt when I joined this forum that the people with a massive sig of what they have must have been the better keepers, better than me because I only had leos at the time. But the more I realise that that is not always the case, there are those who keep a lot of species who are very good keepers indeed, but then there are a lot with a sig as long as your arm because they "have to have another" and want the biggest collection. I have seen a few lists of what people are picking up from Hamm, and some of them are long lists ontop of what they already have. To me coming home with 10+ new animals is ridiculous. It takes enough time to get one animal settled and get to know their preferences, never mind 10! You have to draw a line somewhere surely??
> 
> ...


Hi Miffkins, 

Good response.

The real hardship now, is that in many ways the animals themselves are actually becoming cheaper and this in turn encourages further buying, in some ways - impulse buying yes, but in other ways just 'easier' buying.

The problem is that in order for one to cope with a large collection, it is the care, the environment, the enclosure, the dietary, the time factor n item that keepers with large collections may not consider - l will return to this later], the emotional factor [something many people forget also] that is the problem factor here.

Let me look at the time factor.

If you are in a full time job, and you maintain a large collection - how does this affect your family life? If you were to look at how much you earn annually, and then work the hours out that you spend on your collection.

As an example: if you work say 40 hours per week, and your collection demands of you 40 hours per week also, this is 80 hours, there is only 168 hours in a given week. This therefore only allows you 88 hours to fit in the rest of your life - spread that over a 7 day period = 12.5 hours per day to enjoy your life.

If you have a relationship, children, social, sleeping and eating is that sufficient?

If the average person sleeps for 7 hours per day, then 35 hours is instantly deducted leaving you with 53 hours to do the rest of your life with.

7.5 hours per day to then fit in what is left to do?

On that equation, then perhaps it is, but sadly we have too many keepers that work more than that ............ on their collections. 40 Hours is slim, but some work 60 hours.

If your family does not help, because of lack of interest or enthusiasm, then this means you must do it all yourselves .................. so due to committments do you cut corners?

It would be here that in fact that lack of quality care is noticed.

So many collections of late have ceased to exist because keepers have suddenly realised that they do not have enough time, nor money, nor joined assistance with their collections.

This post was about your 'hobby' the art of keeping animals in your care for your passions, enthusiams, interests. It was also about collections that may be considered too large and how large is acceptable in todays' climate.

When does the 'hobby' become too big, that you run out of time to not only remain interested but also to maintain it to the correct code of environmental care and husbandry?

Just a thought.

R


----------



## Sid.lola (Jan 10, 2008)

I've got two snakes at the moment, a burmese and a royal.

I've been keeping snakes for just over 5 yrs and my Burmese is the only one I've ever actually bought. And we thought about it for months (well it is a burm!)

All the other snakes (including my Royal) have come to me because the keepers got bored of them/or didn't have a clue about even the basic care etc.

My friend's daughter bought a chameleon for example. Kept it in a viv, with a ceramic bulb...no thermostat! Cooked it to death. I only found out a couple of weeks later. So she went straight back to the pet shop, saw a spider she thought was pretty and bought that.

I know there are a few rep rescuers on here, surely the amount of animals they take in as a result of "impulse buying" is 100times what gets brought to me??

So I do think there should be more regulations, perhaps interviews at the point of sale? But I don't think it should be on the size of your collection per se, but your ability to look after them. No matter how few or how many you have, compentence is a basic requirement surely?


----------



## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I do believe that more and more stress seems to be being placed on people to actually BREED their reptiles. Practically everyone these days wants to make some money off their pets - and in 90% of the time it is breeding to make money, not breeding for the love of it.


This is a huge issue. I have never known another fancy where the indiscriminate breeding of any animal is so encouraged. Offspring are produced with no regard as to where they will end up, but as long as they sell noone seems to care.

The only qualification in reptiles for a snake being "breeding quality" seems to be that it does not have any major deformities. In any other species, a breeder using that selection criteria would be looked down on - or called a backyard breeder or puppy farmer or worse.

If you have a clutch of, say, ten bloodred corn snakes, some will be better than others. To a large degree it irritates me that if I breed a clutch of corns, the less vibrantly coloured or poorer feeding babies will be bred from ... what is the point, from the view of improving the species, when the better coloured, better feeding, stronger siblings will have babies? But unfortunately the culture is that if you spend more than about £7 on a snake, then it must pay its way!

In most other animals, a baby will cost a decent amount of money - but once it is grown, even a bit, it can't command that sum again. It might be priceless to the owner, but a rehome is normally done for a token sum. I would love if reptiles followed that "pricing structure" as I think if people knew they couldn't get their money back if they changed their mind on their new snake in six weeks time, then they wouldn't be in such a hurry to buy without thinking. I dread the thought of a snake I have produced or sold at any point ending up being handed to a rescue or mistreated, but because of constant buying and selling it's near impossible to track - and because value holds, I couldn't afford to buy back any snake someone didn't want anymore at any point in time.

A story - I wanted some new corn snake bloodlines that weren't available in the UK or Europe, so I imported. As part of doing that import, I brought in a few extra snakes to sell on to other fanciers - I needed a minimum amount in order to be able to ship, and I figured it would help split the costs of shipping over a few people who were interested in morphs not commonly available over here. The snakes went out to their new homes, and out of around maybe 15 snakes I sold (this was only last August/September), half of them have been resold already, at least once. I know of one snake who is now on his second new home since I gave him away, and is up for sale again - in just over six months!

C'mon people ... put a bit of thought into what you're buying. I accept that breeders will have to move on older animals sometimes ... either holdbacks that have not turned out to be high quality breeding animals, or young adults who have produced such high quality offspring that they can be retired early to a pet home. But those situations are a bit different to buying something and thinking a month later "I'd prefer something else instead".

Secondly, there is no separation between commercial and hobbyist. I have seen people who breed reptiles for a living complaining that prices are dropping, and so they won't be able to afford to continue ... and my response is, so what? Maybe you have to accept that reptile breeding is a hobby, not a business. The only other businesses I can think of that manage to make a living breeding pet animals are puppy mills and the equivalents for small furry pets - which people are always campaigning to have closed down or at least better regulated.

Calling this whole thing a hobby or a fancy comes naturally to me, as it has many similarities to other small animal hobbies or fancies. Numbers don't come into it, as everyone has their own "coping level" - for some people caring for three animals is too many, some people can provide excellent care for a hundred or more. I feel saying under X amount is a hobby and over Y amount is something else is not helpful for that reason.

Personally, I always consider a hobby breeder someone who breeds primarily for their own purposes - a male and female are paired with a definite aim of producing something to hold back, with the surplus being sold or traded. And a trade breeder is someone who breeds offspring purely to sell, with no intentions of holding any babies back.


----------



## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

Sid.lola said:


> I've got two snakes at the moment, a burmese and a royal.
> 
> I've been keeping snakes for just over 5 yrs and my Burmese is the only one I've ever actually bought. And we thought about it for months (well it is a burm!)
> 
> ...


I totally agree with ouy. SOme people buy an animal mistreat it, it dies and instead of thinking "What have i done! What went wrong i better od my reearch before ver considering gettittng another pet!" instead they think "Ahwell, ill just go and get another one"


----------



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

toyah said:


> This is a huge issue. I have never known another fancy where the indiscriminate breeding of any animal is so encouraged. Offspring are produced with no regard as to where they will end up, but as long as they sell noone seems to care.
> 
> The only qualification in reptiles for a snake being "breeding quality" seems to be that it does not have any major deformities. In any other species, a breeder using that selection criteria would be looked down on - or called a backyard breeder or puppy farmer or worse.
> 
> ...


 
Good post Toyah.

R


----------



## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

toyah said:


> This is a huge issue. I have never known another fancy where the indiscriminate breeding of any animal is so encouraged. Offspring are produced with no regard as to where they will end up, but as long as they sell noone seems to care.
> 
> The only qualification in reptiles for a snake being "breeding quality" seems to be that it does not have any major deformities. In any other species, a breeder using that selection criteria would be looked down on - or called a backyard breeder or puppy farmer or worse.
> 
> ...


What a post!
This should be stickied!
I hate to say this, but i have a friend like this, she has a leo and she thikns the world of it, but she got it about a month ago and shes already thinking about getting a male to breed her! i had to stop her and persuade her other wise. i think breednig should be seen as a wonderful thing of nature, not snake + snake = Babies =£££!MONEY!£££


----------



## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Miranda - You are very sensible for your age...

Very good posts by everyone so far and i agree 100%. A lot of people but snakes and then "due to a change in circumstances" have to sell and i bet most of these are because it was an impulse buy...


----------



## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

toyah said:


> If you have a clutch of, say, ten bloodred corn snakes, some will be better than others. To a large degree it irritates me that if I breed a clutch of corns, the less vibrantly coloured or poorer feeding babies will be bred from ... what is the point, from the view of improving the species, when the better coloured, better feeding, stronger siblings will have babies?


And oh the horror if you suggest that you believe that poor feeders and poor doers shouldn't be bred from - and that the only way to prevent this, given that everyone who buys a snake DOES seem to pair it up and breed it eventually - is to either keep permanently or humanely euthanise the ones that you, the breeder, do not feel will contribute to the benefit of the species in captivity as a whole. Gods forbid you should decide that you as a breeder would prefer only to pass on the healthiest animals' genes.

I have a lavender corn who was a gift from a member on here. She was given as a nonfeeder; we've gotten her feeding since and she's actually an enthusiastic little beggar, though she's still small compared to the corn I got at the same time, from the same breeder, of the same age, who fed from the get go. I must admit I CONSIDERED breeding Kainite if I could get her feeding... but you know what? No. She didn't feed first time straight out of the egg on what most pet keepers will be willing to give - and if I'm going to breed a common, unthreatened species I am going to breed with the goal of producing a DOMESTICATED animal that will feed eagerly on what is readily available. Kainite is beautiful and might grow into my ideal Lavender... but she won't further my breeding goals. She's a pet. A lovely, feisty pet who will stay with me for life. Because that's the only way *I* can guarantee she won't be bred. 

That's one reason I wish two things:

1. I wish that the "reptile shows" were arranged more like the OTHER animal fanciers' shows - with actual competition between keepers and breeders to show that their animals are the best, healthiest and closest to an agreed standard of appearance. It might not stop the "backyard-breeder" equivalents - but it would legitimise the fancy. We're not just breeding to sell animals, we're breeding to IMPROVE animals. 

2. I wish that it was easier and cheaper to have reptiles spayed/neutered. That would make it possible for folk like me that don't want 'pet quality' animals to be bred to make it possible to SELL pet-quality animals. Even chemical castration would be acceptable. Yeah, it'd be great if I could offer a baby corn who got a slow start, wasn't a good feeder, or was a patchy feeder, to someone as a PET only for a lower price - and KNOW that they wouldn't be using that lower price as an excuse to get cheap breeding stock. As it is... I couldn't do that. I won't contribute to poor bloodlines, nonfeeders and poor doers by allowing things I wouldn't keep and breed myself to go to people who might breed them - or sell them on later to someone who would. You can bet your bottom that if I breed an expensive morph animal that won't eat... it isn't leaving my house. Either it will be kept as a curiosity and a pet ... or it will go to feed something else I keep.

I have ... a lot of animals. Now, some of them get daily extended attention; others I leave alone. Yeah, I've got some "pets" who aren't pettable - animals that I don't handle because neither of us like it when I try. But in that respect, I don't choose to FORCE them to let me handle them either. Pepper, my female house snake, doesn't want to be handled and I don't want to make her let me - because it would take away from what I like about her - that she IS a fiery little monster.

I am considering cutting down on a few things; we have a couple of animals we got because we'd planned to breed, but have realised that's not going to be possible or practical, and we'd rather see them go to someone who will either want to breed them or who will appreciate them as individual pets instead. At the same time, there are other animals I still very much want and we have hopes and plans that we may be able to convert our garage into a dedicated reptile house. 

So what if we don't have a "social life"? Neither of us really knows anyone in our town anyway (except for a few keepers on here!) because neither of us grew up here; we occasionally do things with coworkers at our various workplaces, but given the choice between going out for a drink after work or coming home and fussing over the rats... I'd rather have Nellie, Robin, Alaska, Siberia, Three and Spice on my lap eating oatmeal from a bowl than go and spend money at a pub. I'd rather get Chess out of his viv and take him outside in the sun for half an hour than go walk 'round town. It's my little life and I like it.


----------



## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> 1. I wish that the "reptile shows" were arranged more like the OTHER animal fanciers' shows - with actual competition between keepers and breeders to show that their animals are the best, healthiest and closest to an agreed standard of appearance. It might not stop the "backyard-breeder" equivalents - but it would legitimise the fancy. We're not just breeding to sell animals, we're breeding to IMPROVE animals.


Definitely. This is the future of the fancy - at least it's the future of *my* fancy, which centres around corn snakes and royal pythons. I appreciate it might not be a really practical idea for keepers of some of the more delicate or unusual snakes, but that doesn't make it any less of a good idea for the species it is suitable for.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I thik the term hobby is fine and good...
When asked by people I only just met what my hobbies are, if I say i dont really have any..whenit later comes up that we keep reptiles, "oh well thats your hobby then" usually follows... so I figure its a fair term, coupled with the fact that people in the "hobby" use it I have not given it too much thought.

How much is too much? its not a number, its when you feel its too much for you, OR when care suffers obviously... best to stop when its "enough" rather than too much i think.

This is why Me and trese have put a stop to anything new, besdies financial problems which in fairness are not really linked to the reptiles although obviously they are an expense and money has been spent purchasing them ,thier vivs etc and ongoing care... its not the reason for the problems.

I dont think "the more reps" or "more species" makes a "proper keeper" in any respect other than the more diverse a collection, be it species or simply individuals or even a variety of differing husbandry requirements.. the more experience you gain/more challenges that you must overcoem present themselves...this also goes with the "fun" of it that adds to it being a hobby....i believe anyway.

For me atleast, its a mix of curiosity and well... erm..I love all our reps... so...erm..I like to love?? and care for/?

Since I was 14 I wanted my own rep shop, yes i forgot about it for a bit as i grew up and realised putting food on the table was the important thing, however you do it..
but if the oppurtunity to have that rep shop...supplemented by our own collection breeding or not..comes up then we will go for it and it is what we want.
Any extra learnings gained from personal keeping is a bonus of course, but I wouldnt think of it as turning our hobby into a business, although its a fair assesment i guess...

erm anyway, too many is when you cannot handle it for one reason or another...but other factors affect what you can and cannot handle so 20 might be too much for you at one stage in your life..where 200+ may be a doddle and not interfere at all at another stage.


----------



## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

A thought just popped into my head.
Certainly on forums or ina reptile society i think its quite pressuring from others to get more, certainly for me because i only have one corn sometimes feel like im not as gooder snake owner but then i thouht,if i were to take one corn form a big collector and my corn imsure my oscar would be as gooder looked after or in huge collections better looked after. Soon i am gettinga crestie though this is not a pressured thing this is because i love cresties patterns and shapes anda captivity, not because i feel i 'need more'.

I think if my dad were the type of person who said yes to every rep, i would in all honesty have a massive collection. But thankfully my dad will wait a long time before he says yes because when i wanted a hogg isladn boa i was so clsoe but i had a think andi thought 'Do i have money and time an the strength, fro a 6ft snake?' and i decided against it and im very glad i did. While im pestering for something im thinking why wont he say yes but when he says ye sor a final no im grateful for making usr ei know whether i want it or dont want it.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

the word HOBBY.... FANCY.... COLLECTION..... PETS???????

semantics i think>>>???

the other points are perfectly correct rory... i am in coplete agreement with what you have said and it is very well put...but to marginalise the problem to ONE WORD... seems a bit basic and we all know once we over simplify a true debate such as this to a one word semantic issue we will alienate those who use the word HOBBY comfortably but do NOT have too many animals and care for their animals perfectly...


----------



## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

Rory said:


> I gave this up, because tbh, l grew tired of running that type of business, l had been doing so for some twelve years and it makes you weary as a breeder, long hours, again heart breaking times, ruinously expensive and very taxing on other things - such as relationships, hobbies, social calendars, friends.


This sums it up for me - when it stops being enjoyable and pleasurable, or it becomes a chore, you know its not a hobby any longer and its time to cut down or quit 

Is hobby the correct word to use? I don't know the answer to that one 

yes - in the sense that it occupies some of my free time with something I can enjoy
no - in the sense that its not something I can put down on Monday, then pick up where I left off next Wednesday


----------



## Miranda (Dec 25, 2006)

I think its time to stop when you have room for one more, this means you have time if they fall ill as this would take up the time of one more, or unexpected eggs etc.


----------



## bevis892 (Feb 25, 2008)

i think that there are a few hypocrits on here. the reason for this is as follows and i wont name names as dont want to offend, its just my opinion.(im not against animal keeping i've kept allsorts for over 20 years and was also in the pet trade myself.but i am against people who say/preach one thing but do another.)
there are some people on here who run pet shops or are animal dealers, if your concerns on keeping animals inaproprietly are so high why encorage it through the pet/animal trade? we do questionairs and such like i hear you say but any idiot can read a book or search the web and give you the right answers! do any of you actually go and do home cheacks? doubt it because that would be an inconvinience to yourselves (not the animals) and it would not be financialy viable... the bottom line is that alot of pet traders actualy prefer the evil £ to the animals themselves thats why they are in the animal trade! 
having dealt with the main animal dealer on this site i have to say i was very disapointed on how the animals were kept especially by a person who freely gives advice.i think it personaly wrong to keep your animals in a shed with no windows or natural light,with a light on only when you go in there.i dont belive that when you keep a large number of plastic storage tubs on top of one another with gerbils in you can possably give those animals the attention they need. cage apon cage with rats and other animals are not going to have the 100% attention they need!
having bought a skunk from a breeder and from a dealer i can see the diference.a repetable breeder knows his animals well and the animals are handled and friendly. a dealer does not know the animals on a personal scale they just seem to know the number of animals and theyer price.the animals are of a nervous disposition as they are past from pillar to post untill theyer destiny comes and picks 1 of a crowd.
having asked advise off one of these dealers about keeping meerkats and other animals i was advised to only get 1 male as they make the best PETS and will remain tame.then other posts have the same person saying how terrible it is to keep these animals singular!!!!!!!! advice? i call it a good sales pitch hoping for money and animal to exchange hands.
i could go on. again just my personal opinion.


----------

