# Thrasops' Left-Wing Alternative Husbandry Thoughts Thread Thing



## Thrasops

Bored and at work when I should be out enjoying the Saturday watching the local Adders, so thought I would make a thread to share posts I've made on Facebook that I want to keep track of. Hopefully they will be of use to somebody here or start discussion.​ 
*THE LIGHT AND SHADE METHOD*

Providing low level UV for snakes and crepuscular reptiles like geckos.


One of the things I like to talk a lot about is the interplay between light and heat, and how reptiles are known to vary their exposure to light (photoregulation) separately from their exposure to warmth (thermoregulation). This is of course far more well studied in lizards, in particular Lacertids, Iguanids and Agamids - families known to have what is called the "pineal eye" which is used in detection of light intensity and triggers basking.​ 

However snakes are now being shown to preferentially move towards certain light spectra as well, in particular UV. One of those that is most well studied in this regard is the humble Corn snake. So this should be useful for a lot of snake keepers too.​ 

As ectothermic animals, reptiles rely on external heat to warm themselves and one of the key aspects of their care is how we provide this to them.​ 

We also should provide them light including UV as there are a number of health and behavioural benefits to doing so, however this is not always as simple as just whacking in a bright light to the enclosure and expecting everything to be hunky-dory.​ 

Many reptiles, particularly snakes and geckos, are very secretive by nature, many forage at night and they know how to hide themselves well to the point that most people might never see one in the wild. While they do expose themselves to UV they may not require high exposure to the same extent as more heliothermic reptiles like Bearded Dragons. And if they feel constantly exposed under bright lights they can become stressed. This doesn't mean they don't benefit from light it just means you have to think carefully about what you provide for them in their enclosure so they can behave naturally and feel secure.​ 

One of the most common mistakes I see for snake and gecko keepers, even with those that make the effort to provide good quality lighting and overhead heating, is an enclosure that is too bare.​ 

So here are a couple of photos explaining the thought behind the way a simple terrarium can be set up for a snake to provide it with the opportunity to expose itself to UV. For this example, here is a simple, small terrarium I set up for a young Balkan whip snake (_Hierophis gemonensis_).​ 









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It is lit by an Arcadia 6% bulb and heated by a low wattage (20w) halogen. I will cover why I like these particular pieces of equipment in another post.



To begin with, it is essential to understand that most reptiles don't live at one constant temperature or at one level of light. They move along gradients as and when they need to, whether that be moving into a warm space to top themselves up with heat so they can function optimally, moving away from the heat to cool down, or moving into or out of light to regulate their UV exposure.​ 
So, it is important to provide the means to allow a reptile to do this. ​ 
Herein lies the problem; you are now attempting to manipulate TWO stimuli within the terrarium - heat and light/ UV. Now light is often a trigger for basking and many lizards (primarily those with parietal eyes such as Lacertids, Agamids and Iguanids) rely on light intensity to tell them when to bask. So it is recommended that the hot spot also have the light directly above it.​ 

But what happens when a more secretive animal wants to warm itself up without exposing itself to light? Or when it feels like exposing itself to light to top up its D3 levels but is already warm enough and doesn't want more heat? The trick is allowing the animal to CHOOSE when it wants to utilise one stimulus without the other.​ 

This may seem like common sense (and it is) but many fall down at this conundrum. ​ 

Simply put, the answer is to ensure the animal has lots of cover and to pay attention where that cover IS in relation to the equipment. Hiding spots at the warm end, hiding spots at the cold end, and cover in the middle. That way, the animal does not need to sacrifice one desire in order to get another - it does not HAVE to expose itself to bright light if it wants to warm up. It does not HAVE to warm up if it just wants to sit under UV.​ 
The important thing is offering the animal CHOICE. Only then will you see it enact a greater range of behaviours and activity.










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It is important to note that there is a strong thermal gradient in this viv, the left side away from the heat source is cool, no more than room temperature (22c during the day, about 18c at night). The right side is warmer and the rocks beneath the heater are quite hot. The snake likes high basking temperatures on the stones but, as a European species it needs to be able to escape to a cooler area if it wants to.​ 









​ 

So here you can see how the snake is able to choose how it exposes itself to heat AND light..​ 

1. On the rocks under the heater, it is warm and exposed to UV. The rocks themselves warm up nicely due to the halogen and so the snake not only gets overhead heat but "belly heat" (which is another way of saying it basks thigmotactically). When the light is switched off, the rocks remain warm for some time and the snake can sit on them even after dark - much like they do on tarmac roads at dusk.​ 


2. Under or inside the pile of rocks it is still nice and hot, but the snake can curl up and hide in darkness without being exposed to the light and still be nice and warm.​ 


3. Across the viv there are plenty of rocks and cover from the plant so it can move around securely or bask cryptically. Having substrate also helps as the snake can burrow into it at any point and make tunnels from point A to point B.​ 


In fact the snake is capable of moving across the viv without being seen, either under the substrate or under the piles of stones. And as with many snakes this one has already constructed a lattice of burrows under the substrate into which it can disappear at a moment's notice.​ 


4. To the left of the viv the temperature is cooler but the snake still can get some UV if it wants to. Note there are branches at different heights so it can choose to sit on the stones,on the branch or under the plants at different levels to vary the UV exposure even at the cool end.​ 


5. Finally, the snake has plenty of hides at the cool end so it can sit nice and cool and avoid the light. There's a log, it can curl up beneath the water bowl, and there are more stones.​ 








 

Here's a closer look at the warm end. Look at all those rocks the snake can hide under, or perch on, to either warm up without being exposed to light, or choose the height at which it basks (i.e. how much UV it exposes itself to). There's really no limit to many perches, rocks or branches at different distances from the heat/ light you put in, it will all offer the snake or lizard more options to get comfy on its terms.​ 









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The cool end. Still plenty of hides and cover, and to the right of the picture you can still see there's enough light that the snake can get some UV exposure without bring in the basking zone.​


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## Shellsfeathers&fur

The Thoughts of Chairman Thrasops! :2thumb:


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## Thrasops

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Of course this method really works best with a larger enclosure (relative to the animal) so each thermal zone, either warm or cool, is big enough that the snake can get it's whole body within it. This is one of the reasons I prefer enclosures that are at least as long as the snake - although for this whip snake this viv is quite a bit more than that as they are quite active.​You can see the snake curled up in the shade at the bottom corner of the pic. It was under its water bowl when I took the picture.​​ 


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And a pic showing the size of snake vs. length of enclosure. I'm a great believer that a snake enclosure should be at least as long as the snake (doubly as important for active species like whip snakes and rat snakes). Not for some dodgy physiological reason as represented by Warwick, but because this allows the animal to move and explore and makes it easy to provide properly differentiated thermal zones, wider choice of hides and so on.​


To me, this doesn't seem extravagant, it still feels like "bare minimum."​










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Here you can just see it peeking out from under the rocks,rest of its body is concealed under the nice warm rocks and the snake is nice and secure. At other times the snake will curl up at the mouth of such a home with just a few coils exposed.​

 





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So here is a final shot of the snake actively basking under the most intense heat in the viv this morning, Occasionally it will curl up on top of the rock itself, or just press against it.​


There are several different ways reptiles can bask and thermoregulate, allowing them to choose how and when to do this on their terms is in my opinion a fundamental aspect of ethical and enriched husbandry, and it really is as simple as the above.

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## Thrasops

Apologies, spacing seems to be going haywire...


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## Thrasops

*HALOGEN HEATING/ LIGHTING*


The reptile hobby being the reptile hobby, predictably somebody was quick to pull me up on my previous pictures by stating that the bulb was not guarded. To which I replied, good point! BUT it doesn't NEED to be guarded. It's a 20w light, the fitting it is held in doesn't warm up any more than the rock below it, and the only part that gets hot to the touch is the faceplate of the bulb, which the snake can only touch by rearing up and shoving its face in it - something any snake would flinch from before getting burned.


However this did bring about another point, because of course a 20w CERAMIC would still be a burn risk and should always be guarded. However the two methods of heating are not equal and I will expand on that.


To begin with - YES, you can use many different types of equipment to heat your enclosures and have success. I have used ceramics, halogens, space heaters, mats, even household bulbs (which actually rank pretty well). And you can have success with ALL of those... to a point.

However the reason halogen bulbs are now being recommended so highly is because of the type of heat they put out, what is called 'near infra-red' which is different from the 'far infra-red' heat put out by ceramics.

This is important because of the way it warms the basking spot and the air around it. A ceramic heater, while certainly serviceable, is nowhere near as efficient at delivering penetrating heat as a halogen - it warms the area around it. So, while it DOES warm up the viv, it is less efficient at providing heat at a specific location - the basking spot - and better at raising ambient temperatures.

Many people will say 'well, so what, it still heats up the animal in the end.' And this is true, but it does so less _efficiently_, so the animal has to spend more time basking to warm its internal organs, and the larger the reptile, the more of a problem this becomes.

Consider a large snake or tortoise sitting under the ceramic. Because the temperature is as high as it needs to be but it does not penetrate the animal as well as near-IR from halogen bulbs, the reptile will need to spend longer underneath the bulb, possibly over-heating its outer layers whilst its inner tissues are still cold. This can lead to burns in extreme cases, or simply inability to reach preferred temperature throughout all the animals' extremities. This of course becomes much more of a problem the larger the animal becomes, for small lizards or tiny snakes it is less of an issue - for tortoises, larger lizards or constrictors it is very important!


The other problem of course is that since ceramic bulbs warm the area around them, it becomes a lot harder to maintain a really big thermal gradient whilst also maintaining a proper basking surface temperature.


The beauty of halogen bulbs and the type of heat they provide is that you can direct them at a surface - say a flat piece of rock, which is ideal - and then they heat that surface so efficiently that the reptile can lie on that and benefit from 'belly heat' from underneath AS WELL as overhead heating, and not only that, the overhead heating penetrates deeper, quicker and warms the animal's body up more evenly and more quickly.

In fact at the end of the day after the light is off, that flat rock will still be warm for a while and the animal can sit on it after dark if it wants to.

This is particularly useful in smaller terraria as you can focus the halogen onto a basking surface and it will not heat the area around it quite as much as a ceramic would, resulting in a much better thermal gradient and much more ease creating a focussed basking spot without making the rest of the enclosure too hot.

A good analogy would be going out into the UK. Even on a relatively cold day, if you put your hands on sun-warmed rocks the surface temperature can exceed 50c whilst the air temperature might be in the teens. This is due to exactly the same effect and is the reason we see reptiles out basking even on relatively cold days.


Here is a series po photos by the great Roman Muryn showing what I mean. This is a pile of rocks in the UK on a moderately sunny day with a little cloud and average air temperature of 18c.














Now see what those rocks look like through a thermal camera. They're hot to the touch! But the area around them - the darker parts - are not, they're cool.

This is because where the sun hits them, the IR penetrates and warms them better so they are hotter than the surrounding areas.














So the key point here is that the _air_ temperature is low (around 18c) but the _surface_ temperature of the rocks might be as high as 50c. This is important, as when air temperatures start getting above about 25c or so, it starts becoming harder and harder to see snakes out and about in the wild!


What we really want is a low ambient temperature, but a high surface temperature... and ceramics are not ideal to provide this, especially in a small space. The reason for this is because they give out mostly far infra-red, which actually only accounts for about 12% of sunlight... most of sunlight is split between visual light (44%) and near-infra red (37%)... with another 7% being UV. It is near infra red that provides a more penetrating, efficient heat.


Have a look at the picture below, also by Roman Muryn through his thermal imaging camera.












On the left is a halogen bulb compared to a ceramic bulb (far right). The ceramic warms the whole area around it including the air but doesn't focus well on the spot it is directed at.




On the other hand if you look at the surface under the halogen bulb, it is positively glowing - it's a much better surface for a reptile to sit on and absorb heat from - and the bulb will have the same effect on the reptile's tissues themselves, warming them efficiently.


Here's another thermal image showing just how more targeted and efficient the heat is.












To exemplify this, here is a photo of Sam Perrett's Spiny-Tailed Monitors basking beneath halogen bulbs.












See how the animals are glowing with heat and warmed right through on the hot rocks where the heat is targeted, but they still have much colder areas to escape to (the purple areas) when they've had enough?


Now, for some types of reptile, particularly those from the tropics that tend to thermoconform and may not bask as much, this is not as important and a relatively constant temperature might be fine (I still prefer varying temps in the confines of a viv as in the wild the animal would still find the right microhabitat to inhabit), but for MOST of the commonly kept pet reptiles, this will more accurately reflect the way the sun works for them.

You have to remember, snakes - especially temperate snakes - tend to not actually LIKE constantly high temperatures, which is why it can become harder to find them in the wild once daytime temps reach or exceed about 26c. You ideally don't WANT constant temperatures for these animals, you want a decent basking spot which can exceed 30 or even 40c at a localised spot, but the rest of the enclosure is better off with ambient temperatures below about 25c. It is just much easier to achieve this with halogen lighting.

You CAN still keep snakes with many other types of heating - and many people do. Halogen lighting in conjunction with full spectrum and UV lighting just mimics the way the sun works better, is all - especially in smaller terraria. So this is why I use a halogen Gu10 or E27 bulb for heat alongside fluorescent lights for UV and visual spectrums.


Of course in a larger terrarium it would be possible to use BOTH a ceramic and a halogen in conjunction with whatever lighting too... but in the confines of a small terrarium, there's really no contest in my opinion.


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## Malc

Interesting and some controversial points. It could also be very confusing to beginners who read up so many care sheets all stating that the hot spots should be between 28c-32c depending on species (as you mention in the text), then sees an FLIR image with a hot spot of almost 55c, with the post advocating the use of halogens over ceramics. Granted that was in a lizards enclosure, and the species (or individual) requires high desert temperatures, but then this was posted in the snake section....

I would agree with you that ceramics provide a better ambient air temperature, and a less focused hot spot compared to a halogen spot light, but regardless of vivarium size, some form of supplementary heating is required when using halogens if we want to provide a true day night photo period. 

The main thing is we as reptile keepers will always have to compromise. It's very difficult to replicate the external environment in a vivarium housed in a living room or bedroom. All methods of heating (and lighting) can't replicate fully the energy and wavelengths of light coming from the sun. All products have pro's and cons

Interesting read thought.. thank you


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Interesting and some controversial points. It could also be very confusing to beginners who read up so many care sheets all stating that the hot spots should be between 28c-32c depending on species (as you mention in the text), then sees an FLIR image with a hot spot of almost 55c, with the post advocating the use of halogens over ceramics. Granted that was in a lizards enclosure, and the species (or individual) requires high desert temperatures, but then this was posted in the snake section....
> 
> I would agree with you that ceramics provide a better ambient air temperature, and a less focused hot spot compared to a halogen spot light, but regardless of vivarium size, some form of supplementary heating is required when using halogens if we want to provide a true day night photo period.
> 
> The main thing is we as reptile keepers will always have to compromise. It's very difficult to replicate the external environment in a vivarium housed in a living room or bedroom. All methods of heating (and lighting) can't replicate fully the energy and wavelengths of light coming from the sun. All products have pro's and cons
> 
> Interesting read thought.. thank you


 
In my opinion, care sheets are overrated and all too often written by people who don't have a clue though... Haha how's that for controversial? 


In all seriousness though, I don't "do" care sheets and have never advocated then. I have always been highly suspect of the idea that everything you need to know about caring for an animal can be distilled down to fit into one sheet under a couple of headings, I think that is a very dangerous notion when people write entire books on single species or different aspects of their husbandry. ALL of us have been doing this for years and we are all finding out new information on these animals even now.


Personally, when I write about a species, I do so in full articles and some of those can be 20 pages long or more... and I purposely don't write articles about a species unless I am sure I have grasped every aspect of their care over a very long time (that means repeated breedings, repeated cycling, preferably seeing the animals in the wild or at least speaking at length to people who have, and so on).

On your point about hot spots and the images presented above.... I'd actually say that the idea of "hot spots" is part of the flaw in these care sheets for beginners and is something we should be moving away from, as they are confusing. When you say "hot spot" do you mean surface temperature? Or air temperature? That's just one of the things that causes confusion among many of the people I advise online.


The problem being that surface temperatures at these hot spots _should_ be higher than 28c IMO, but limited to _just_ surface temperatures - and that _ambient_ temperatures should be considerably lower for many species (Corn snakes, other Rat snakes, Leopard Geckos, Hognoses, King snakes and many other commonly kept species being good examples). If you go out into the range of any of these species and measure surface temperatures at the basking zones, they are a _lot_ more than "28-32c" - hell, even if you go out to look at Grass snakes on a summer day you can see them flattened out on slabs beside a pond that are in the 50s. Nobody tells the _animals_ that they are only allowed to bask at 28-32c.


This "28-32c" golden number that gets thrown around is actually closer to the animals _preferred temperature_ (Tp). To get their bodies to that temperature they will frequently shuttle between _much_ higher temperatures and lower temperatures to regulate it, and this is what we should be teaching newcomers IMO... not "just give them _this_ specific temperature."


I would (and do) provide surface temperatures at these "hot spots" considerably higher than 28-32c, often up into the 40s and 50s, and sometimes even higher for certain species with the proviso of course that the air temperature is much lower and the rest of the enclosure is cooler too. This is why I like halogens so much - they heat the air a little bit but most of the heat is directed at the "hot spot" so it is positively easy to get nice hot basking zones without making the whole enclosure overheat. You cannot really do this at all with ceramics.


I disagree that supplementary heating is always required when using halogens, I use various wattages and they warm the viv nicely as well as providing a nice hot basking surface (although you may need more than one in larger vivs, I prefer a couple of low wattage bulbs than one high wattage personally). For example, a 20w halogen will EASILY warm a 36"x18" viv with a nice gradient and a decent hot surface temperature between the bulb. This would be perfect for a Corn snake, a King snake or a Leopard gecko without any supplemental heating at all.


It is completely dependent on what you are housing in the viv - this post is mainly directed at temperate species or nocturnal lizards, something like a Royal Python, a larger Boa or many tropical species that might be found crawling around at night when it is still 32c and humid as hell WOULD probably need some form of supplementary heating in addition to the halogens, because you'd also need them to be warm at night and halogens emit light; you could absolutely keep king snakes, rat snakes, whip snakes, garter snakes, Bull/ Gopher/ Pine snakes just with halogens though.


However... if we break down what the sun's energy actually consists of when it hits the ground... we know more or less what it is. 7% UV, 44% visual spectrum, 37% near-IR and 12% far-IR. Sure, of course you are never going to perfectly replicate that... but if you are using a piece of equipment that only replicates 12% of what makes up sunlight (ceramic heaters) then that is less accurate than using equipment that makes up the remaining 88% (halogen combined with one or more fluorescents, which together provide at least a semblance of UV, visual colour temperature between 4500k to 6500k and near-IR).


It isn't really difficult to do, a potential keeper doesn't really have to compromise when it comes to money. A GU10 or Lucky Reptile Halogen is really around the same price as a ceramic if not less (depending on brand). Lots of people already provide light of some sort, whether LED or fluorescent. That accounts for the visual light, and you can get decent fluorescent under-shelf fittings for a couple of quid which give fairly good light quality. Definitely under a tenner. What remains is the UV, which for a snake should not be more than another £20.


That's ALL a beginner snake keeper needs for most species they are going to want to keep. Yes, really big vivs or tropical species used to a higher constant temperature will also need an additional source of heat at night.... but it is surprising how few of the most commonly kept snake species that makes up (Royals, _most _Boa subspecies). Compare that to Corns, Kings, Garters, Pits, Rats... it's quite a big disparity.


In this case there are several ways to heat a viv, and all of them work one way or another. But to provide the closest representation of sunlight that we can, a ceramic alone is not going to cut it. In fact NO one piece of equipment will - but given light is provided by something else, for temperate species I'd personally always choose halogens over ceramics at this point. Horses for courses and VERY dependent on what you are keeping. And I 'd agree, in a larger viv I'd use a ceramic AND one or more halogens. But in the average home how big is the average viv going to be? I'd say 36" or 48", in which case halogens work out fine by themselves for many species.


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## Malc

Thrasops said:


> It is completely dependent on what you are housing in the viv - this post is mainly directed at temperate species or nocturnal lizards, something like a Royal Python, a larger Boa or many tropical species that might be found crawling around at night when it is still 32c and humid as hell WOULD probably need some form of supplementary heating in addition to the halogens, because you'd also need them to be warm at night and halogens emit light; you could absolutely keep king snakes, rat snakes, whip snakes, garter snakes, Bull/ Gopher/ Pine snakes just with halogens though.


Agreed, my comment was mainly directed for those who keep tropical species. For temperate species no additional supplemental heating would be required


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## Helvetica

Fantastic food for thought. 
When it comes to the day I refit my vivs I will definitely do my best to swap out the existing ceramic setups and install halogens. I think those points were rewally well made. 

My current work around for providing the best heating I can is all my vivs have something raised under the heat source that the snakes can get up on to really heat up. And all of them are regularly up on branches in the 40s for their morning bask and post meal slumbering. Meanwhile the floor of the vivs goes from 30-32 right down to 20-22 with a cool hide that may even be lower still. And they use every inch. Despite currently just using ceramics I think they are getting sufficient heat and the gradient works well. And as it gets cooler it does work to prevent the cold end from dropping too low. 

Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk


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## Malc

Interestingly there is no mention of thermostats with these halogens. Somewhat undoes all the guidelines for safe heating. For years we've been saying never use a heatmat without a stat, but now it seems perfectly OK to do so and let it reach 50c+


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Interestingly there is no mention of thermostats with these halogens. Somewhat undoes all the guidelines for safe heating. For years we've been saying never use a heatmat without a stat, but now it seems perfectly OK to do so and let it reach 50c+


You would think that would be common sense by now, and anybody changing over from ceramics should still have stats (you'd hope so anyway)... but in any case, my post was about halogen lighting not thermostats, I may write one on the benefits and flaws of the various types of stat at a later date on this thread.


Although actually since it's been brought up, I use low wattage halogens without thermostats _all the time_ in my larger setups, wouldn't dream of it in a small enclosure though. I'm not here to insist on prescribed dogma, a little common sense goes a long way - for example, if a heater is simply unable to heat up a terrarium to dangerous levels (like, say, a 20w halogen in a 36" or 48" viv) and is guarded, then there's really no problem. The same cannot be said for a ceramic of the same wattage, which could overheat the same viv (there's another benefit of halogens over ceramics for you!)


That is down to the keeper, personally I would always advise stats to a newcomer. However I also don't jump on people that don't use them the way some were quick to jump on Roman (who is an aircraft engineer and understands the physics behind these concepts better than anybody) when he mentioned the simple fact that it was impossible for the equipment and wattages he was using to overheat his enclosures...


Then again, you cannot really compare halogens to heat mats, especially since people WILL use heat mats the wrong way (i.e. putting them under stuff which is stupid and results in thermal blocking). That is NOT how heat mats should be used... How many rooms/ houses burned down by heat mats have we seen now? Even those being used with stats? Quite a few... Wonder if that has anything to do with all the people advising people to use heat mats the wrong way? Given how often heat mats get recommended to newcomers I'd say that's a pretty serious issue right there, if anybody were to ask me...


To me, this seems to still be about "care sheet" mentality. You MUST do this THIS way, you HAVE to use THIS piece of equipment, you MUST have a stat, you CANNOT cohab, substrate WILL cause impaction, snakes/ geckos get STRESSED under lights, snakes WON'T eat in large enclosures..... I've never been down with all these "hard and fast rules" because every single one can be bent or broken with some common sense and understanding of what you are doing. And worse, after these beginners have been indoctrinated all these hard and fast "rules" they then come online believing they are experts and start criticising anybody doing anything different, even if the person doing it has reptiles that are older than they are...


That's one of the things that inspired this "left field" thread for "alternate" ways of doing things (I would say "logical" ways of doing things when not being self-deprecating).


Yes, I personally would advise a stat for halogens to beginners, I don't _always_ use them myself though, but then - I tend to run enclosures for a few days before an animal ever gets near them, I measure min and max temperatures, UVI and so on... and I prefer using lower wattage equipment in large enclosures that simply cannot overheat them (another benefit of halogens) rather than overpowered equipment "reigned in" by a stat... because when that stat breaks or malfunctions or the user just doesn't set it properly (and it HAS happened before) you have problems.


So I won't be jumping on somebody for not using a stat if they seem like they understand what they are doing.


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## Thrasops

Helvetica said:


> Fantastic food for thought.
> When it comes to the day I refit my vivs I will definitely do my best to swap out the existing ceramic setups and install halogens. I think those points were rewally well made.
> 
> My current work around for providing the best heating I can is all my vivs have something raised under the heat source that the snakes can get up on to really heat up. And all of them are regularly up on branches in the 40s for their morning bask and post meal slumbering. Meanwhile the floor of the vivs goes from 30-32 right down to 20-22 with a cool hide that may even be lower still. And they use every inch. Despite currently just using ceramics I think they are getting sufficient heat and the gradient works well. And as it gets cooler it does work to prevent the cold end from dropping too low.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk



Glad you enjoyed it, when Roman first talked to me about the differences in near and far infra red I must admit I was a little sceptical at first... I thought "heat is heat, the animals will still warm up either way"... but there is nothing to match actually seeing the difference in front of you and that is what is so fantastic about both his and Fran's method of presenting this information, with the equipment right there so you can see the difference.


After that, obviously I tested these ideas myself in my enclosures and met with noticeable differences.


As I said, I used all sorts of different heaters for my enclosures and still do, but it was only recently I got everything converted to have at least some halogens (luckily there are some decent adapters for E27 fixtures to convert them to GU10 - although ONLY use ceramic adaptors or they'll melt for anything above 40w) and Lucky Reptile do some lovely low wattage E27 halogens.


Having sorted this a few months back I have to say the difference is fantastic, the enclosures are even more brightly lit than before, the snake rooms don't feel so "close" and hot any more as they did with ceramics and the animals bask much more visibly the way they should.


Definitely happy I made the change.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Fantastic post Francis as always. 

I think the key thing to remember about thermostats is that they take the guess work out of achieving, maintaining and controlling the temperature and for someone new to the hobby should be seen as an essential piece of equipment. 

Kevin Eatwell a very well respected veterinarian, once gave a presentation to my local reptile club on his work with European Tortoises. He stressed the need for young tortoises in particular - due to their vulnerability - to achieve optimum operating temperature as quickly as possible and pretty much said that a hot spot could be 'as hot as hades' *provided the enclosure was large enough for the animal to seek out cooler temperatures.* 

This makes sense, why spend an hour basking if you can spend just 10-15 minutes reaching the same optimum operating temperature - this is why it may be advisable why higher than 'care sheet advised' temperatures can / should be available.


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## Malc

This has prompted me to research further and consider options for possible expansion of my collection.

This is focused (no pun intended) on the UVA element and what's around to produce full spectrum lighting. From a quick google UVA (both I and II) range from 320nm to 400mn. Now in this range, halogen produce very little UVA looking at most spectrum diagrams for these lights. Now it may well be enough for the reptiles needs, but in my limited research I came across this graph










As you can see Xenon covers the full spectrum with similar intensities rather than a peak in the visual. Now I'm hoping Arcadia John will chime in here to answer a question. Is this level of UVA too intense for a snake / lizard?

I also found several comments that where halogen lamps are concerned, if the lamp has a cover over the front, this actually filters out the UVA content, effectively negating the benefits suggested in this thread.

We often post about enrichment for the animals we keep in our wooden boxes, and this thread has certainly made people think about it. But it should also form part of the research into the animal you are keeping. My royals typically spends the daylight hours under cover in either hide (normally the warm one, charging up for an night of roaming). If I replaced the ceramic with either Halogen or Xenon lamps there would be little advantage as the snakes don't bask in the day, and being under cover would not be able to take advantage of any UVA emitted from said bulbs. However, for a diurnal snake or lizard, then the use of Halogen (and or Xenon) lamps might be the ideal source to replicate normal day night patterns with heat and light and provide the UVA enrichment at the same time


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> This has prompted me to research further and consider options for possible expansion of my collection.
> 
> This is focused (no pun intended) on the UVA element and what's around to produce full spectrum lighting. From a quick google UVA (both I and II) range from 320nm to 400mn. Now in this range, halogen produce very little UVA looking at most spectrum diagrams for these lights. Now it may well be enough for the reptiles needs, but in my limited research I came across this graph
> 
> image
> 
> As you can see Xenon covers the full spectrum with similar intensities rather than a peak in the visual. Now I'm hoping Arcadia John will chime in here to answer a question. Is this level of UVA too intense for a snake / lizard?
> 
> I also found several comments that where halogen lamps are concerned, if the lamp has a cover over the front, this actually filters out the UVA content, effectively negating the benefits suggested in this thread.




Xenon lights? The ones used for car headlamps? Do you have a link to where you would get those. The ones I am aware of are HID lamps, they'd have a much higher UV and heat discharge at low wattage than would be suitable for small terraria, although there are brands of HID lamps like Solar Raptor that are perfect for things like lizards that have high UV needs. I would think they'd be a bit much for most snakes in the average terrarium, I know Darrell Raw used to use HID lamps for his Ocellated lizards in a 6'x3' viv and they were enough to heat the entire viv and provided extremely bright light - great for lizards, not necessarily for crepuscular or shy snakes.

The halogens are not there for UVA or UVB - those are provided by the fluorescents, so for example an Arcadia D3 forest lamp provides 6% UVB and
30% UVA. This is _more_ than enough for the majority of snakes, if the lamp is positioned correctly - and bear in mind the Arcadia lights are specifically designed to produce the correct amounts of UVA and UVB for reptiles.

The purpose of the halogens is exactly the opposite, it caters towards the other end of the visible spectrum - Infra-red, specifically near infra-red. Which is why a combination of the two is suggested to cover all bases.

The other factor you would have to consider if using the kind of HID lights you are suggesting is that you then no longer have a way for the animal to regulate its UV and heat independently, it therefore MUST expose itself to the UV if it wants to bask, or it must keep away from the heat if it wants to avoid UV exposure. Ironically this is reducing enrichment rather than improving it - and a worst could prove rather dangerous and detrimental, it is the opposite of the 'light and shade' method I outlined in the first post on this thread - although I am sure it would be possible to use them in a huge enclosure with heliothemic lizards or even the more diurnal snakes like Coachwhips.



Malc said:


> We often post about enrichment for the animals we keep in our wooden boxes, and this thread has certainly made people think about it. But it should also form part of the research into the animal you are keeping. My royals typically spends the daylight hours under cover in either hide (normally the warm one, charging up for an night of roaming). If I replaced the ceramic with either Halogen or Xenon lamps there would be little advantage as the snakes don't bask in the day, and being under cover would not be able to take advantage of any UVA emitted from said bulbs. However, for a diurnal snake or lizard, then the use of Halogen (and or Xenon) lamps might be the ideal source to replicate normal day night patterns with heat and light and provide the UVA enrichment at the same time


This is another case of 'popular herp culture' lending credence to myth over fact. Royals in fact do and _should_ bask during the day. Why, for example, do we have to find a 1961 book on African Reptiles (by G. S. Cansdale) to find that the royal python “in the wild is often encountered sunning in bright light”? When in fact any field researcher that has spent any time with the species in the wild will tell you these animals are frequently found basking cryptically during the daytime, for example at the mouth of their burrows, Luka Luiselli found 89 of them over a two-year period between the hours of 08.00 and 18.00. I've seen them sun-basking in the wild myself, as have several other wild herpers, some of who have posted videos of them finding them on Youtube or Herping the Globe.

For example, here's a specimen recently found crossing a road in Ghana by Samone Coetzee. Who also provided a video of the same specimen basking within a pile of leaves with its coils exposed - exactly the same thing I have seen.










In the terrarium, again they SHOULD be out basking by day too, and this has been readily observed by MANY people on Advancing Herpetological Husbandry - again including myself.

Here's another example.





































Another from James Petit



















There are plenty more, I won't bore people with too many Royal pics but actually we see posts on Advancing Herpetological Husbandry and AHH - Not Just A Pet Rock on a daily basis from people that have changed how they heat and light their Royals and see obvious results very quickly.

In fact the popular misconceptions on Royal python habits and ecology are so pervasive that it prompted me to write the following article. You may find it useful.

https://www.reptifiles.com/wp-conte...g-Royal-Python-Myths-by-Francis-Cosquieri.pdf

SO what I would personally recommend for Royals - or any tropical snake that requires nocturnal heating - would actually be a combination of low wattage ceramic and halogen, as well as fluorescents for UV. The general consensus would be the correct size viv for an adult Royal would be 48x24x24. This could be heated by a 40w ceramic on a stat to provide a more constant background heat, then the halogen for the basking zone in the day time, and fluorescents for UV. 

Try it. I guarantee you will see your Royal more often in the daytime.


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## Thrasops

I've seen a lot of posts and been asked a lot of questions about the humble Aesculapian snake _Zamenis longissimus_ recently, for one reason or another.

Somewhat uniquely among Eurasiain rat snakes, one of the main issues people seem to have with this species and its relative the Leopard snake _Zamenis situla_, both otherwise very hardy species, is getting babies to feed.

Here is one of my melanistic animals, bred in 2018. I put these into individual 30*30*45cm terraria barely two months ago, at the time they were barely as long as the short edge of the viv. In that time they've put on some serious length - these will have to be upgraded soon as they've very quickly outgrown their enclosures.

Still, happy they are ramming down fluffs like champs now. The hard part is over.





































This is one species I start out in tubs for the first few months of their life to ensure they are doing well before putting them into something larger and more suited for their arboreal tendencies. Once adult, they are fairly bold and eager to take food, but _getting them there _seems to cause many keepers no end of grief.

There are some tricks to this when it comes to this species though.

Firstly, if the animal won't eat as a baby... then don't keep hassling it to feed it. Let it brumate. This is one of the simplest tricks with Aesculapians, particularly ones born late. Put it under for the winter at low temperatures and the following spring it will rouse and almost always will start feeding with no further effort.

Second, they tend to like really small prey as babies and even many grown-on juveniles seem to prefer a few small prey items to on large one.

Once the snakes are feeing regularly, THEN is the time to move them up. These are active, arboreal snakes that do best in well ventilated enclosures, a tub is no life for them so it is best to get them out of one as soon as they are feeding regularly. In fact I know many people that keep these outdoors in the UK in mesh screen enclosures and they do fantastically in these.

Moving the baby snakes into larger enclosures is always a fraught time with this species as I have had them go off food in the past after a big transition....

...But, this is exactly what I want to see. Not only are they visible basking (albeit cryptically) most days, they are still taking food and have even bumped up from pinks to fuzzies.




























As should be inferred from the photos, another key to keeping this species feeding is to provide a LOT of cover. I'll be honest - you are not going to see a whole lot of these snakes at this time in their life, they are shy, they bask cryptically, and they need all that plant cover and multiple hiding spaces to feel secure. But, if you have them in a quiet, not very well travelled area, they DO come out regularly for a bask or to explore... and once they lose this shyness, you will start seeing them cruising around looking for food.

As is obvious from the above pics, these snakes have outgrown their 30x30x45cm vivs in record time, now I will move them each into 60cm enclosures for about a year until they are big enough to go into their adult vivs. Exciting.


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## Thrasops

Nothing particularly left-field or weird here. Just the opportunity to post a few shots of one of my lovely Taiwan Beauty snakes, _Elaphe taeniura friesi_.


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## Malc

Thrasops said:


> Xenon lights? The ones used for car headlamps? Do you have a link to where you would get those.


Here's an example - granted its GU10 fitting, but then so are mainy halogens

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PRO-LITE-GU10-XENON-LAMP-Pack/dp/B01ATOZR3G



Thrasops said:


> SO what I would personally recommend for Royals - or any tropical snake that requires nocturnal heating - would actually be a combination of low wattage ceramic and halogen, as well as fluorescents for UV. The general consensus would be the correct size viv for an adult Royal would be 48x24x24. This could be heated by a 40w ceramic on a stat to provide a more constant background heat, then the halogen for the basking zone in the day time, and fluorescents for UV.
> 
> Try it. I guarantee you will see your Royal more often in the daytime.


I can't see all those breeders trying to fit that lot in a rack system :whistling2:

I don't have a low wattage ceramic, but can't see no reason to set that to a lower background temperature and install a halogen spot lamp as a daytime basking point. UV would be the stumbling block as money is tight at the moment and 4 vivs to convert would not be cheap


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Here's an example - granted its GU10 fitting, but then so are mainy halogens
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/PRO-LITE-GU10-XENON-LAMP-Pack/dp/B01ATOZR3G


Thanks

GU10 is not too much of a problem, there are some adaptors you can buy to convert E27 fittings to GU10 fittings, however they work best for lower wattage models and they MUST be ceramic, not the more common plastic versions - which will melt, I've had this happen. In fact I have been using this type of adapter in many of my vivs for lower wattage bulbs.



















That said, since I discovered the Lucky Reptile mini halogens, which have E27 fittings, they solved the problem and are perfect for small vivs up to about 48x18x18.

If you don't mind, I am going to make that suggestion regarding the xenon lights on Reptile Lighting, if anybody will have tested them it will be Frances Baines and Roman Muryn, I will report back what they say. But it is always good to have alternate equipment, particularly with the current dearth of halogens sold in shops.



Malc said:


> I can't see all those breeders trying to fit that lot in a rack system :whistling2:
> 
> I don't have a low wattage ceramic, but can't see no reason to set that to a lower background temperature and install a halogen spot lamp as a daytime basking point. UV would be the stumbling block as money is tight at the moment and 4 vivs to convert would not be cheap


No, I sadly cannot see breeders doing it either. But they're out for profit, so their reasoning is keeping costs down. We are keeping pets so we don't have that constraint. 

The ceramics I use in my smaller vivs - say, 60cm to 90cm - are the mini ceramic emitters, you can get them on places like Internet Reptile for a couple of quid, although of course there are plenty of other types to choose from. About 40w will be more than enough for a 48x24x24. One of these on a stat works very well for creating a nice background temperature.


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## Thrasops

Right, so on the xenon lights, it turns out rather a lot has been written on them before in Reptile Lighting.

On the one hand, in the words of Fran Baines... 'you're right, they do emit the best solar-simulator spectrum I've ever seen.... The visible light and possibly the UVA from a xenon lamp (with proper glass front lens) would be very good although I've never tested one.'

On the other hand, although they DO emit UV, they must have a glass shield in front of the bulb that blocks it out - 'The spectrum from this unshielded xenon lamp shows emission down to at least 250nm - well into the UVC range (below 280nm)
Some emit UVC with wavelengths as short as 185nm.... very hazardous to living cells. 
This is why these lamps must always be used behind a glass shield - to filter out the hazardous UVC and short-wavelength UVB below 290 - 295nm, neither of which are found in natural sunlight.
They should be safe as long as the lamp's outer glass envelope is of a suitable thickness and is sealed - think of it as a metal halide lamp of the type used in sports stadia; if there is a crack or defect in the outer glass then the spectators can get eye and skin damage from the short-wavelength UVB and UVC.'

'It will depend upon a separate plastic shield as to whether it blocks the UV.... the specs for the lamps I looked at (in the links above) revealed considerable UVC output, so their "glass" was not coated to block it. Because of the extreme heat of the arc tube, I'm pretty sure most of these lamps are made of quartz glass, which is transparent to all UV....'

In other words, using these lamps MIGHT be very dangerous indeed for reptiles and indeed yourself if they do not have correct shielding from behind the same kind of plastic used in front of car headlights.


One other thing I did note is that the lamps you posted a link to are made in China. As much of a fan of China as I am, it's pretty well known that Chinese lighting companies do self-certificate, 'Which means that in some cases the CE mark isn't worth the paper it's printed on... But a true xenon HID lamp would be superb. Like the Japanese EYE Color Arc..'

There is a Xenon High Intensity lamp XID on the market 'These look like ordinary metal halide lamps with xenon included in the blend - exactly like my old friend the Iwasaki Eye Color Arc... If the Chinese can now make these reliably and cheaply, then there is a superb opportunity to develop high quality UVA + Visible lamps out of these.... I think it would be very important to test a few very thoroughly though.'

'Xenon is tricky stuff. If you mix it in HID lamps you get fabulous light and a great spectrum. But in ordinary halogen bulbs you get... an ordinary halogen spectrum. I got caught out by this, before... I saw an aquarium GU10 dichroic bulb advertised as "brilliant xenon lighting" and of course I discovered this after spending all my pocket-money on the darn thing...'

Roman Muryn has the following to say on the spectrograph provided, which is pretty much what I thought as well - 

'This is a curve from the link above. If it's a true curve then its one that needs proper scrutiny. 4200K is just loverly. 125lm/watt. Tie it in with a T5 and a great IR lamp and job done.'

In other words - they give great all-purpose visual light but would still need supplementing with UVB and near-IR bulbs.

The EYE colour arcs mentioned by Fran are independently ballasted PAR36 lamps with E27 screw bases. They require a separate Iwasaki ballast and are very difficult and expensive to get hold of. So, while your idea in theory holds water IF you select the right xenon bulb, it is still likely to be more expensive and harder to replace than cheaper, more readily available alternatives. Which is a shame, I was all set to order a couple of those bulbs and test them out.


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## Malc

Very interesting stuff. I know that there are lots of dodgy stuff from China, but I would presume if an equivalent was obtained from someone like Phillips or GEC then they should be a lot safer and not emit the dangerous UVB and UVC?

Thanks for taking the time and effort to post on the specialist forum and relay the replies.


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## Thrasops

Some shots of my _Psammophis praeornatus_ (Striped Swamp snake) out basking.


















































A rare (in the hobby) tropical African species.


This is the only specimen I have, one of three that I know were imported by La Ferme Tropicale last September. It's proven very hardy but sadly will only take live lizards, of which I can just about produce and source enough to keep him fed. I certainly could not provide for another one very easily, but am just about managing with this little guy.


The species seems to be more arboreal than some other _Psammophis_ (many of which will readily climb, though) although is dwarfed in a 45x45x60cm Exo Terra.


All in all a beautiful and unique member of my collection.


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## Thrasops

And a couple of snaps of the Balkan whip snake (_Hierophis gemonensis_) with which I started this thread, happily sun-basking.


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## Rshimmin

Very interesting! What are your thoughts on full spectrum lighting? I’m in the process of upsizing all my vivs and lighting is something I plan on experimenting with. For some that I plan to plant the jungle dawn lamps seem to be the big thing at the moment, but as far as I can tell they are just made to match the colour of natural sunlight to stimulate plant growth. I can only assume this will stimulate behaviours in animals too. 
A note on your comment on getting the light level to 4500-6500k. It’s important to note that uv lights aren’t in this range, and most halogens aren’t either, topping out at 3500 as they tend to be warm colours.(yellowish) in order to achieve a light colour of 6500 ( daylight colour) the bulb must already be producing this, and is more of a blue/white colour. I haven’t seen many halogens in this colour though, only leds. Il be experimenting with a combination of led strip lighting at 6500k, uv tubes and halogen spot bulbs, see what happens!


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## Thrasops

Rshimmin said:


> Very interesting! What are your thoughts on full spectrum lighting? I’m in the process of upsizing all my vivs and lighting is something I plan on experimenting with. For some that I plan to plant the jungle dawn lamps seem to be the big thing at the moment, but as far as I can tell they are just made to match the colour of natural sunlight to stimulate plant growth. I can only assume this will stimulate behaviours in animals too.
> A note on your comment on getting the light level to 4500-6500k. It’s important to note that uv lights aren’t in this range, and most halogens aren’t either, topping out at 3500 as they tend to be warm colours.(yellowish) in order to achieve a light colour of 6500 ( daylight colour) the bulb must already be producing this, and is more of a blue/white colour. I haven’t seen many halogens in this colour though, only leds. Il be experimenting with a combination of led strip lighting at 6500k, uv tubes and halogen spot bulbs, see what happens!


Hi, thanks for the comment.

I believe full spectrum lighting is an important 'piece of the puzzle' for reptiles - especially lizards but also snakes in that it encourages basking behaviours. We know colour temperature does stimulate basking in many lizards such as lacertids, iguanids and agamids, which use a pineal eye to detect light intensity and for which simply providing the older, blue or purplish UV bulbs isn't enough, and in my experience bright light DOES also stimulate basking in many snakes better even than a heat bulb or UV by itself - this is why you so often notice snakes moving into a shaft of sunlight that comes into their terrarium even if it is away from the actual basking area. Snakes can see lux, and there is strong evinced that they use light-sensitive patches within the apical pits of their dorsal scales to detect light intensity in a similar way lizards use their pineal eye. 

The UV lights I used are Arcadia fluorescent lights, which have a colour temperature of around 6600k and in some cases over 7000k depending on which make you use. For most snakes, I would argue this is in fact enough.

However, in my enclosures I use a minimum of two fluorescents in conjunction with the heater - one for UV, which is generally an Arcadia 6% for snakes, and one Arcadia Pro, which has a far wider spectrum. By providing full spectrum visible light, a uv bulb and a halogen bulb for near-IR, this is probably the cheapest and easiest way of approximating sunlight, especially within small enclosures.

Of course for basking lizards and heliothermic snakes like Coachwhips and _Psammophis_, I double up on the fluorescents, so I provide a bank of 4 - a 12% UV light, a 6% UV light and two full spectrum Pro t5s. This allows even more fine-tuning of the UV gradient and enough light intensity for even the most heliothermic lizards such as agamids, lacertids etc which have pineal eyes used to detect light intensity. Before this technology became available I was frankly not keen on the idea of keeping lizards, especially Lacertids, indoors as I just did not see the same kinds of activity levels as you get in those exposed to actual sunlight.

In older days on this forum I used to recommend a combination of Hagen Life-Glo and Life-Glo2 bulbs for the full spectrum aspect and Repti-Glo 5.0 or 10.0 for UV, but the Arcadia t5s and t8s literally blow them out of the water and I changed over to those years ago.

In some enclosures, particularly smaller ones that I do not want to overheat, I use Jungle Dawn or Kinfire LED bulbs and these work well to provide that natural white light too.


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## Malc

Whilst colour temperature no doubt plays an important part in enrichment, and to a degree the colour temp is related to wavelength peaks, one other factor is intensity. Whilst there is no possibly way to replicate the lux levels of the sun on a bright clear day, running a 20-40w 6% UV tube won't provide the intensity of UV that is found in nature. But I would agree that some UV is better than none at all, and with lower intensities it's more controllable.

Cost is also a factor that I feel a lot of us fail to respect, not only in the initial purchase of the equipment, but the running costs. With a thermostatically controlled background heat, Halogen hot spot, full spectrum lighting and UV, both on timers, the investment can be quite high, and sometimes two or three times the cost of the animal being cared for.

By all accounts my female lesser / pastel royal is gravid and I'm currently considering my options to house the offspring. One option is a traditional rack system, but I want to recess some LED strip with UV content into the underside of the shelving so the snakes have a day night cycle and can also get some UV. Another option, is a stack system, but using GU10 halogens, with heat mats for night time warming.

One thing this thread has done is to make me consider additional lighting options to my 6000K white slimlight tube currently used for my animals


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Whilst colour temperature no doubt plays an important part in enrichment, and to a degree the colour temp is related to wavelength peaks, one other factor is intensity. Whilst there is no possibly way to replicate the lux levels of the sun on a bright clear day, running a 20-40w 6% UV tube won't provide the intensity of UV that is found in nature. But I would agree that some UV is better than none at all, and with lower intensities it's more controllable.


 
You might be surprised, actually. If you take a Solarmeter 6.5 and hold it within few inches of a UV bulb, you would find that under, say, a 6% Arcadia you will measure a UV Index (UVI) of 15 or more. There are very few places where you'd be exposed to such high UV Indices in the wild. In fact measuring UVI at basking zones of reptiles, you'd find that more usually they will be much lower. For heliothemic animals like the families of lizards named above, I'm much more concerned about providing the right colour temperature and lux then I ever am about UV.


So for example, Adders and Grass snakes in the UK tend to bask under UVI 0.5 to about UVI 3. Dione's or Korean rat snakes in China at UVI 2 or 3. House Geckos at UVI 0.7 to 1.2. _Podarcis_ and _Lacerta_ in southern Europe under UVI 7 or so at most, often far less. Coachwhips in Sonora or California under UVI 3-12. All the above examples in fairly open, well insolated habitats - stand in a forest or jungle and UVI would possibly be even lower, and factor in that many snakes bask cryptically from hidden places or within vegetation and actual UVI would be even lower. So a Royal Python or Boa constrictor would likely be found under a much lower UV (and indeed the recommended UVI for both of those species as partial sun baskers is 0.7 to 1.0, with maximum indices at 1.1 to 3.0).




There really is no need to provide UVI over about 4 for _most_ reptiles people are going to be keeping, certainly not most snakes. In fact for almost all snakes and shade-dwelling lizards like geckos, UVI 1 is enough. Lizards of course require more, hence I recommend either several lower percentage bulbs or a higher percentage fluorescent (I provide my Lacertids with a 12% and a 6%, you won't find lizards with higher UV needs than those).


This is a mistake I have made myself, being honest. Go back through some of my earliest threads on this very forum and you will find several instances of me saying I use two fluorescents to warm up small vivs for temperate snakes like Dione's and Russian rat snakes, as they can reach temperatures of 32c within a few inches of those lights. Of course, that doesn't factor in that the snake has to stretch itself out close to a fluorescent, incidentally exposing itself to MUCH higher UVI than it normally would be able to in the wild. Whilst the snakes don't seem to have shown any ill effects, I certainly would not want them that close to an Arcadia t5, having seen how high UVIs can get within 6" of them!


So, as long as you are providing a UV Index of about 1, this will be enough for most of the commonly kept snakes - rat snakes, king snakes, hognosed snakes, boas, pythons etc. You _can_ provide more (I generally try to provide a UVI up to about 3 for most snakes, using raised ledges, branches and fake rock walls) but 1 is enough for those. Species like whip snakes, racers, natricines, coachwhips, Psammophiids and so on require higher UV. But you can STILL cater to their needs in a terrarium with that same 6% bulb by allowing them to get closer to it - this is the reason why I keep saying what UV equipment people provide will depend on what size viv they have, a 6% bulb 12" from the animal will probably provide more UVI than a 12% bulb 30" from it, especially if the animal can climb onto a ledge or branch and get even closer. THIS is why it is so important to follow the instructions on the packaging of the lights and keep them a certain distance from the basking zone! As you don't want the reptile to spend long periods that close to them, you want the lights 12" or more above them.


I certainly recommend a Solarmeter 6.5 to measure UVI at various points in the viv and distances from the UV bulb... but again this is added expenditure that not everybody will require if they are just keeping a single snake or leopard gecko under a shade dweller bulb.


The other thing one has to consider is that, yes, you won't be able to fully replicate the sun's energy... even with the three types of lighting we are discussing (UV, IR and "full spectrum"). However you don't NEED to - once you get out under a midday sun, in most places you won't see too many reptiles (with some exceptions - none of them commonly kept species). Most snakes especially retire once air temperatures get over about 25c. Simply put, herping in the open under a midday sun on a cloudless day is unlikely to be fruitful in most places - you might find some animals, but certainly not as many as you would in the early morning, early evening, or even night time (in the tropics).


What this means is that, in the confines of a viv, you don't _want_ to have this glaring, bright, high UV light and heat beating down at the same level relentlessly for 14 hours a day. Many snakes bask cryptically. Many are more active in evening or morning or at night. Yes, they will bask, yes, they benefit from UV - this doesn't mean they bask all day long, all the time - and certainly not under the intensity of a noonday sun. And remember light reflects off the side of the viv, melamine is quite shiny, the white plastic vivs that are common even more so. Imagine how bright that must be for a reptile to have this great bright light source on all day 12" above it and all that light shining from the sides of the viv. This is why it is so important to provide lots of cover so the animal does not feel so exposed and can get away from all that light and UV when it wants/ needs to.





Malc said:


> Cost is also a factor that I feel a lot of us fail to respect, not only in the initial purchase of the equipment, but the running costs. With a thermostatically controlled background heat, Halogen hot spot, full spectrum lighting and UV, both on timers, the investment can be quite high, and sometimes two or three times the cost of the animal being cared for.
> 
> By all accounts my female lesser / pastel royal is gravid and I'm currently considering my options to house the offspring. One option is a traditional rack system, but I want to recess some LED strip with UV content into the underside of the shelving so the snakes have a day night cycle and can also get some UV. Another option, is a stack system, but using GU10 halogens, with heat mats for night time warming.
> 
> One thing this thread has done is to make me consider additional lighting options to my 6000K white slimlight tube currently used for my animals


 
I mean, I keep several hundred animals, all of them outfitted with UV, lighting and heating as above... believe me when I say I have _tremendous_ respect for the cost... (when I get to replacing lights I can single-handedly wipe out supplies at several online shops overnight). And then there are the electricity bills. One thing I am certainly not saying is that this way is _cheap_... lol


I will say that Fran Baines and I did measure UVI through plastic RUB lids at the first AHH conference, and we found that through the thinner plastic lids (say the 5L and 9L boxes) you can get a UVI of 1.2. Through the thicker plastic of 64/84L RUBS, UVI is 0.7. You can provide some UV through the lids of tubs this way simply by having the light just above them, perhaps catering to several snakes by lining up tubs beside one another under a fluorescent.


(Plastic does solarise over time under UV exposure though, so it would be important to use a Solarmeter regularly to ensure UV is still getting through as this is blocked over time, and then replace the lids every few months or so). But it is feasible in theory and could probably reduce costs.


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## Rshimmin

[/QUOTE]I mean, I keep several hundred animals, all of them outfitted with UV, lighting and heating as above... believe me when I say I have _tremendous_ respect for the cost... [/QUOTE]

TELL ME ABOUT IT! I keep no way near as many as you but my energy provider recently installed smart meters and set up a little box that tracks usage. I hate them now more than ever.


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## Rshimmin

Malc said:


> Whilst colour temperature no doubt plays an important part in enrichment, and to a degree the colour temp is related to wavelength peaks, one other factor is intensity. Whilst there is no possibly way to replicate the lux levels of the sun on a bright clear day, running a 20-40w 6% UV tube won't provide the intensity of UV that is found in nature. But I would agree that some UV is better than none at all, and with lower intensities it's more controllable.
> 
> Cost is also a factor that I feel a lot of us fail to respect, not only in the initial purchase of the equipment, but the running costs. With a thermostatically controlled background heat, Halogen hot spot, full spectrum lighting and UV, both on timers, the investment can be quite high, and sometimes two or three times the cost of the animal being cared for.
> 
> By all accounts my female lesser / pastel royal is gravid and I'm currently considering my options to house the offspring. One option is a traditional rack system, but I want to recess some LED strip with UV content into the underside of the shelving so the snakes have a day night cycle and can also get some UV. Another option, is a stack system, but using GU10 halogens, with heat mats for night time warming.
> 
> One thing this thread has done is to make me consider additional lighting options to my 6000K white slimlight tube currently used for my animals


I think you may have to chose your lighting or add a strip for both. LED lights cannot produce UV, so if you want to provide that too you’ll need a florescant tube. 👍


----------



## Malc

Rshimmin said:


> I think you may have to chose your lighting or add a strip for both. LED lights cannot produce UV, so if you want to provide that too you’ll need a florescant tube.


Depends on the lighting. I have a DIY rig over a marine reef tank composing of warm white, cool white and royal blue LEDs - the latter produce UV (enough to make the centre core and tips of the coral glow)


----------



## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Depends on the lighting. I have a DIY rig over a marine reef tank composing of warm white, cool white and royal blue LEDs - the latter produce UV (enough to make the centre core and tips of the coral glow)


Be careful with those LEDs, they aren't particularly good for reptiles (in fact at the moment none of the "UV" producing LEDs on the market are particularly useful for reptiles as far as I am aware).


This is because a single LED emits one exact wavelength - like all LEDs which don't use phosphors -eg. red, or green, or blue LEDs. Even if you have a cluster of them they tend to all emit the same wavelength.
That means that unlike sunlight, which has all wavelengths from UVB to infrared in its spectrum, the LED has just one tiny spike of one "UVB colour".

The trouble with that is that the vitamin D3 synthesis is a finely-balanced system that is regulated by the exact blend of UVB wavelengths across the whole spectrum. The proportions of the blend determine the photoproducts produced; there are four main ones, and preD3 is one of them. The others form in a balanced way, both preventing over-production and providing substrate for further production as the sun's spectrum changes over the day.

It is difficult to mimic the sun's spectrum, but lamps which have a spectrum with different proportions of UVB wavelengths from sunlight run the risk of disrupting the "self-limiting" nature of the natural process.
A single-wavelength UVB lamp is most certainly not going to enable natural vitamin D synthesis.

I would be very wary of jumping onto this bandwagon without seeing seriously long-term studies of serum vitamin D3 levels in animals put under these LED lamps.




There ARE LED UV lamps currently in production specifically for reptiles, for example the Zoomed Repti-Sun that was unveiled last year.... the problem is that, unfortunately, they're crap. One reviewer found they stopped emitting UV after just five days. I'm sure LED technology will eventually catch up and companies will produce amazing LED UV lamps, and I really cannot wait for that day... but it is not here yet, not in a cost-effective and worthwhile format for reptiles.


EDIT - in fact having just checked up on that unit to remind myself of its specs, it turns out my memory was misleading me. It is a combination LED/ fluorescent light, the fluorescent light catered to the UV aspect. So sadly we are even further back than I thought, although I DO believe in the future at some point we will have great quality LED lights to provide UV for our reptiles, and in the meantime, LEDs can be used to create some really amazing varying effects throughout the day in terms of light intensity, Sam Perrett has been doing some breathtaking things with his enclosures. Far more involved and complex than what I currently do in terms of providing varying, shifting light intensity over different periods of the day.


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## Rshimmin

To my understanding the amount leds produce is negligible in comparison. Someone in the know (cough Arcadia John cough cough) will correct me I’m sure but uv tubes have a gas inside that allows uv light production, whereas leds do not not have this.


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## Thrasops

Going back to an earlier point about UVI beneath fluorescent lights and how intense they can be.


Here's a snip of some graphs from "How Much UV Does My Reptile Need?" showing UVI beneath a T8 (A) and an Arcadia T5 (B) showing how UVI changes over distance.


Both have way more UV than is needed by the average snake at extreme close range. For the T8, a distance of 20cm is enough for most snakes and geckos etc, giving them a UVI of 1-2. I would say a T8 of this type would actually be enough for such animals - Leopard geckos, Crested geckos, most rat snakes, king snakes, hoggies, pythons and boas, etc.


For the T5, a distance of 60-80cm is fine (this is a 12% though, a 6% will be more useful at a slightly closer range, although not more than about 30-45cm away).


The really high UVI within the 0-20cm range is why these lights need to be mounted some distance from the basking zone. Even for one of the more diurnal lizards, you wouldn't want the light closer than 30-50cm from the basking zone, depending on species. For snakes like the more diurnal rat snakes, some heliothermic tree snakes like Chrysopelea, you could also have the light at about 30cm from a basking spot (a branch for example), and 60cm from the viv floor - ensuring the snake cannot get closer than this to the light when it is basking.


----------



## Potatatas

@Thrasops


Do reptiles self regulate UVB in the same way as they self regulate heat? Eg, you can provide temps much higher than recommended providing there is a proper thermal gradient but can you do the same with UVB?


Very interesting read especially as I've been reading Fire by Arcadia


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## Thrasops

Potatatas said:


> @Thrasops
> 
> 
> Do reptiles self regulate UVB in the same way as they self regulate heat? Eg, you can provide temps much higher than recommended providing there is a proper thermal gradient but can you do the same with UVB?
> 
> 
> Very interesting read especially as I've been reading Fire by Arcadia


Short answer - yes they do and quite a number of species have been recorded to do it.


It is most well documented in lizards, for example it is well known in chameleons, iguanas and agamids such as Bearded dragons, which have been shown under experimental conditions to regulate their UV exposure independently of heat.


It has also been shown with Corn snakes, Leopard geckos, Copperheads, Cottonmouths, Garter snakes and _Nerodia_ water snakes, so should really be expected in most snakes and lizards at least, and probably other reptiles too.


In fact it is such an important factor that some species inhabiting the same habitat show niche partitioning based on UV Index - so for example in the wild where Ribbon snakes, Cottonmouths and _Nerodia_ coexist, they each inhabit different microhabitats based on UV exposure.


In laboratory studies on Corn snakes that have been deprived of D3, they spend more time exposed to UV than those that had not been deprived (although animals kept under both treatments spent time under UV).


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## Arcadiajohn

This is a fascinating and well rounded thread. 


There are many very encouraging aspects being spoken of and follow my own desire to see increased welfare by not only seeking to understand light, but to also be able to replicate it correctly.


The most limiting thing about light, is its name. We see light as a form of illumination only as a species, because we are stupid! Light is energy, pure and simple. If we can switch our thinking regarding light from being 'able to see or not', to viewing it as very potent and very usable energy, interacting and supplying for ALL life, we would have a far greater level of respect and understanding of it.


Of course, cheap plug... i have just published a whole 200 page book on this very subject.. cough cough.


But i describe light as this in the book, A paragraph that I showed Frances long before publication and one that she liked very much. 


"
_*Simplyusing the word ‘light’ does a disservice to the true meaning of the word; it ratheralludes to a mere tool or even a diminishment of a subject due to itsassociation with a lack of weight or meaning. In fact, the word ‘light’ fallsso far short of the action and interaction of the critical energy fields thatexist within our world that it ought to be replaced by a far more complex wordor couplet, such as ‘empyreal’, or as an exciting descriptive, such as ‘photonicfuel’.*_

_*Intruth, ‘light’ must be thought of as an energy field; a constant provision offuel of epic proportions, akin to those within the biggest of all sci-fiblockbusters ever made. Imagine being able to accurately visualise the levelsof energy contained within each photon of light, and then see how it and thosearound it interact with the environment and deliver the energy contained within.*_

_*Ifindeed we were able to visualise this, we would see countless trillions ofparticles pouring down and being redistributed, seemingly endlessly, each with itsown different energy level and each with a label attached to denote its usewithin life. We would then see each and every ‘package’ from every terrestrialwavelength splashing onto and/or delivering into anything and everything itencountered. This vast field of energy would be absorbed, reflected andradiated away in myriad ways and in countless angles right before our eyes. *_

_*Ifwe truly understood ‘light’, we would then appreciate how it sustains andenergises us. Every single one of us would have little choice but to interactwith the world in a much different and vastly more respectful way. *_

_*‘Lightis simply not “light” at all, as in the manipulation of a switch and thesubsequent emission of a lamp (“I cannot see, now I can”), rather it is thedriving force behind the whole of our solar system, it is how we breathe, howwe live and how our bodies function. Without these energy packets, splashingonto our world by the trillion every microsecond there is no air, no food, nowater, no heat, no earth, no gravitational fields and truly ‘nothing’interacting with any form of known complex life, therefore we surmise stronglyno life".*_


It is clear that we are now starting to both understand and produce many of the tools that are needed to provide energy to the lives that we care for. We still have a long way to go of course but there are some real triumphs.


As example, if you look at the UV-B spectrum of an Arcadia Reptile lamp, you will see that it almost perfectly follows that of full-spectrum terrestrial daylight. This is the result of some very clever chemistry and physics working together to ensure good biological function. We still have work to do on the rest of the spectrum, although its a pretty good replicant. As an interesting point, there is still much to explore in terms of phosphor blending. As example, when i designed 'ShadeDweller' as lamp i wanted a lamp that would be uniquely suited to shade dwelling species when they are most active. I wanted it to project a certain index at a certain distance but to also be very natural in terms of its whole spectrum and colour. Using new phosphor science we created a lamp that was 7% UV-B, but with a slightly elevated % of UV-A, that being 17% (up from 10-12%), but without skewing the lamp towards blue. The result was, by using new science, a lamp that has a decent lumen output, with a very good spectrum and a natural colour. Hard going in a SO-T5 12" tube. You see, we can push this envelope further, if we have time, support and the funds to do so. 


It is also clear that we must think of the provision of light in far greater depth. Accept that the use of lamp arrays is a must, whereas in history we used 1 or 2 lamps. 


I speak at length in the book about my personal feelings regarding the use of Halide, and at the moment, its not a tech I could put my brand, nor name to. Aspects of the tech are good, in large enclosures, but the UV depreciation and altering of the spectrum is just too fast to fall within my goals of providing lamps that are guaranteed to be effective for a year. I have never found a factory that can make them within a decent quality tolerance either. Add that to short lamp life, huge inrush currents, high lamp and ballast prices and quite fragile ballasts and its a situation I just can face. In-fact, I cancelled the Arcadia Halide project as it just didn't sit right in my mind. 


I have looked at xenon for the same reasons and maybe one day it will be cracked in terms of visible light, but again, tech fragility and expense, both to buy and run are a negative.


The lumen output isn't that high either now and sadly, due to the tech only projected over quite a small area. There are better solutions as you will see soon.... 


For me, perfection with regard to providing a balanced provision of energy within light consists of the use of multiple lamps. From my work, and seeing the greatest level of positive change in live animals (displayed activity, feeding and feeding aggression, predator avoidance, colouration and willingness to reproduce) it is the coupling of a 100w PAR38 and DHP alongside a suitable T5 that provides the best in terms of basic provision over the core terrestrial spectrum. The T5 provides a natural colour and balanced spectrum from UV-B to ling wavelength Red, the halogen provides a rich bright basking spot, quickly warms the air and has IR-A and the DHP fills in the largely missing mid portion of the terrestrial I-R part of the spectrum. Within this we must then increase lumen content over the illuminated area for suitable species or to cater for the energy needs of plants, whilst ensuring that each living space has equal to, or greater areas of gently increasing shade and decreasing temps.


One point that I try to make as often as possible, especially within the madness that surrounds the very poorly understood subject of LEDs for plants, is that, the colour of light has very little to do with a lamps ability to allow plant growth. It is the spectrum contained within that colour that is of upmost importance. This is where we use the unit measures within the vitally important subjects of PUR, PAR and CRI to ascertain the ability of a lamp, within its advertised colour (kelvin) to be able to do a job.


We must view the terrestrial projection of the sun, lets call this 'daylight', as being the core or apex provider. It is within these wavelengths and their 'balance of provision' that ALL life has developed over vast time. This is pure energy, therefore there is a 'use for' and a 'level of protection against' this energy in every life form and in every eco-system over the whole spectrum, there just has to be, it is usable energy, therefore it is used in some way. We can then view this projection as being 100% bioavailable to life. Perfection (minus the changes caused in a short period of time by the interference of man within climate change,,,but that's another subject!). The % of alteration away from this natural perfection equates exactly to a reduction in the % of PUR and as such the ability for a light source to interact with a lifeform when compared to cycles and processes seen and catered for by daylight.


A prime example here is the use of separate red and blue diodes in LED fixtures. This is a totally wrong interpretation of good science. Plants do require exposure to red and blue wavelengths, but only in relation to every other terrestrial wavelength. They are all as important as each other. LED fittings that use red and blue diodes and purport to be 'plant growth' are actually very limited in their ability to allow long-term photosynthesis due to a reduction in the potential lumen output of a lightsource (red and blue are not bright compared to 'white', so lower potential PAR) They also skew the spectrum towards purple which messes up CRI, PUR and within that PAR. We end up with a energy limited and unnatural projection of light, when compared with daylight. For LEDs to be able to allow good growth, as within daylight, they need to be of a balanced 'full-spectrum' within the visible portion of the EMS from blue to red. If we use full-spectrum diodes we cater for the whole need within every portion of the visible spectrum whilst still projecting a suitable colour that is not impeded in potential lumen output... Phew, that's a complicated one to write. Now, lets look at lumen output, LEDs can be bright, that is not in dispute, but how much usable 'energy' is being flung forwards? To achieve the ideals of 100+ lumens per watt, and to cover an area that is a true flood of light, rather than pin spotted columns we have to spend energy. This means higher wattage units. 


This is the reason why LED fittings are still so untrusted in formal horticulture (lets omit micro-veg here- coloured diodes seem to cater for size reduced plants very well). They just do not get the results. Why, because they load fittings up like a fairground ride believing science that is 15 years out of date and wonder why the 'crop' isn't as good as under HPS. A lack of balance = a lack of results. 


Lets not forget, energy is energy and it cannot change. Energy in = energy available to be 'used' or stored. First law of thermodynamics. If an animal or plant requires a certain level of energy, then that is the level it requires whether that is within the descriptive unit of measure we call UV index, Infra-Red in terms of the energy we call 'heat', or lumen output to describe the quantity or potency of the visible spectrum. If we over provide we bypass the developed 'use for' and 'protection against' and cause issues such as burns or worse. If we under provide, or 'poorly provide' (unbalanced spectrum) especially for an ectotherm, we 'under power' or 'limit' an animals ability to start, use and maintain its usual biological cycles and processes. 


Again, 'energy in = the energy available to be used'


The same applies for so-called UV LEDs. Almost all 'UV' leds are not actually, they are short wavelength blue into long wavelength UV-A. Plus, due to the nature of UV from LEDs and the standard spread of photons over area, they are extremely weak, narrow in wavelength band and cover a tiny area. Plus, as stated, they tend to be useless within a very short period of time. I have some of the worlds most advanced and most expensive UV LEDs here, honestly, they are terrible in terms of projection, spread and life. I got about 30 mins from a unit before I saw a halving of projected power...plus, the wretched things produce no visible light.


As a side point, Corals fluoresce at between 400-480nm with 440nm being thought of for decades as the optimum for getting corals to 'glow'. 


I hope that this helps the discussions, you can of course read my thoughts in much more detail if you wish to.


best wishes to everyone!


John


----------



## Potatatas

My head hurts...


This thread is gunna take me a long time to digest but thank you all for discussing! Sadly, I've found it hard to find anyone locally who isn't dismissive of these ideas...


----------



## Tarron

Potatatas said:


> My head hurts...
> 
> 
> This thread is gunna take me a long time to digest but thank you all for discussing! Sadly, I've found it hard to find anyone locally who isn't dismissive of these ideas...


Wher do you live potatas?


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## Potatatas

Tarron said:


> Wher do you live potatas?



I'm in South Wales in the Valleys. Might be useful to put in my bio!


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## Tarron

I'm sure you will have loads of great keepers to help you out there, though i can't think of any off hand. Sorry haha


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## Thrasops

And now for something completely different.


Received a new pair of _Thrasops_ last month. I already had _T. jacksonii_ about which I have written much on here; these are _T. occidentalis_ (Western Black tree snakes).






















These are really cool, consummately arboreal snakes from tropical Africa. They're what is known as Dispholidine snakes, the same family that includes the very toxic Boomslang and Twig snakes, both of which have caused fatalities to famous herpetologists (and are capable of giving fairly prolonged and painful envenomations themselves as I once discovered to my cost).


I have years worth of observations of _Thrasops_ I could reiterate, but there's actually not all that much known about them, they are canopy-dwellers in a region of Africa subject to much unrest so are not well studied at all.


Some odd things about this genus:


Their shed skins smell like liquorice.


They bob their heads with an odd, bird-like "tic" when excited or interested in something.


As their huge eyes should bely, they watch EVERYTHING going on around them.


They have very similar venom to Boomslangs, but a poor delivery system (no grooved fangs) so they have to chew venom into a wound using their large but aglyphous back teeth.


They can inflate their throats in the same way as Boomslangs, Twig snakes and some other arboreal snakes do when threatened to try and look larger than they are and more threatening.


They make odd chewing motions with their jaws when excited, which I suspect is to get some of that venom good and ready.


They signal one another by raising the front third of their body and making curious undulating movements, I have watched as different specimens have caught sight of one another from across a room and done this.


Their bodies are ridiculously long, thin and ribbon-like, with the longest and most prehensile tails I have ever seen in snakes. These snakes can scale _anything_.


They seem to need marked drops in temperature at night (to room temperature or below). This may be because they can inhabit montane regions.


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## Malc

John, thanks for the input, and I agree that this thread is becoming fascinating.

So lets look at someone who has a typical beginners snake such as a cornsnake. They have purchased a normal 36" x 18 x 15 viv and want to offer the best way to heat and light the enclosure.

On the bases of what's written above they would use a deep heat projector (I assume that is what DHP stands for), a 100w halogen spot lamp, and a T5 UVB tube. Based on average prices, £90 for starter, reflector and tube kit. Halogen 100w basking lamp £12 (Arcadia of course  ), £15 for lamp holder, £10 for a guard for the lamp. £25 for the DHP, another £25 for guard and holder, and £50 for a dimmer stat. So that's £227 for the equipment. 

I bet a lot of first time keepers don't anticipate spending that sort of money on top of £70 - £100 for the viv, especially given the low cost of Cornsnakes these days.

The other consideration is space. With the projector and spotlamp plus the associated guards a three foot viv could be very cluttered. Commercial vivs don't seem to take in consideration the amount of head room that is left after fitting these to a 15" high vivarium. This is one of the reasons why I use trough ceramics as their foot print has less of an impact on the space within the vivarium.

John, I have a couple of suggestions for you. I use under cabinet tube lighting in my vivs. These take T4 tubes. It would be great if UV / full spectrum tubes could be offered in this diameter tube as well. I would also like to see the DHP be offered as a low profile trough design, which would the advantages of the trough CHE I mentioned above. 

I do like to look of these










Although they don't seem designed for internal use, more like suspended over a glass terrarium. Seems that the design has been taken from the aquatics industry as they look very much like the Vertex light units


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> John, thanks for the input, and I agree that this thread is becoming fascinating.
> 
> So lets look at someone who has a typical beginners snake such as a cornsnake. They have purchased a normal 36" x 18 x 15 viv and want to offer the best way to heat and light the enclosure.
> 
> On the bases of what's written above they would use a deep heat projector (I assume that is what DHP stands for), a 100w halogen spot lamp, and a T5 UVB tube. Based on average prices, £90 for starter, reflector and tube kit. Halogen 100w basking lamp £12 (Arcadia of course  ), £15 for lamp holder, £10 for a guard for the lamp. £25 for the DHP, another £25 for guard and holder, and £50 for a dimmer stat. So that's £227 for the equipment.
> 
> I bet a lot of first time keepers don't anticipate spending that sort of money on top of £70 - £100 for the viv, especially given the low cost of Cornsnakes these days.
> 
> The other consideration is space. With the projector and spotlamp plus the associated guards a three foot viv could be very cluttered. Commercial vivs don't seem to take in consideration the amount of head room that is left after fitting these to a 15" high vivarium. This is one of the reasons why I use trough ceramics as their foot print has less of an impact on the space within the vivarium.
> 
> John, I have a couple of suggestions for you. I use under cabinet tube lighting in my vivs. These take T4 tubes. It would be great if UV / full spectrum tubes could be offered in this diameter tube as well. I would also like to see the DHP be offered as a low profile trough design, which would the advantages of the trough CHE I mentioned above.
> 
> I do like to look of these
> 
> image
> 
> Although they don't seem designed for internal use, more like suspended over a glass terrarium. Seems that the design has been taken from the aquatics industry as they look very much like the Vertex light units
> 
> image


OK, so a lot of that equipment is overpriced or unnecessary.
Here is how I would heat a 36x18x18 viv - which IMO is far too small for an adult Corn snake but let's use it as an example, as it is the size of the first viv in this thread for the Balkan whip snake.

So, heat - no DHP here, this viv is much too small for that and it would be redundant with a halogen anyway. So instead let's use a 20w or 35w Lucky Reptile mini halogen, more than enough to heat a viv this size. Currently retailing at £7.99 for two in some online shops, so you have a spare. You need a fitting for that, I personally use Arcadia ceramic lamp holder and bracket, retailing for about £12. So let's call that an even £20 for the heating.

Next, UVB. Now I know you once researched Arcadia t5s and found a decent fitting at about £24 which is more than enough for a 36x18x18 viv. I personally found cheap undershelf fluorescent t5 holders on eBay which fit the Arcadia t5s which I believe we discussed in another thread, I've been using those a year and a half and have noticed no drop-off in UV output or longevity - yet. So actually I only pay the price for a T5 tube which is about £14.

BUT let's assume the beginner is electronically clueless and say they want a full plug and play kit out of the box. You can get Arcadia t5 kits for under £25 that will fit the bill, remember in a 36 long tank you want about half the ceiling lit, not all.

I would say that at £45 is enough for a Corn snake, but if you really wanted to go all the way and include full spectrum lighting as well - even though some of the Arcadia t5s already emit 6600k - you could spend the £7 or £8 for a Kinfire LED, or any other LED fitting, or even another undershelf heater with a non-UVB full spectrum tube, that's not going to set you back more than another £15 or so if you shop wisely. So that's a total of £60 in equipment.

OR you could buy an Arcadia double t5 starter for about £40, and get two t5 tubes, one for UV and one Pro for full spectrum, setting you back about £30 for both. A total of £70 for lighting and another £20 for the heating = £90.

i'm not going to factor in the price of guard or thermostat as frankly you would need those no matter WHAT heater you choose, it would be unfair to add those to the cost - and frankly, being controversial, you could use a 20W halogen without a stat in a viv of those dimensions with NO problem whatsoever, this is precisely what I do.

Corn snakes don't need nocturnal heat, room temperature is more than enough for them. No need for any other ceramic or DHP. So for between £60 and £90 you have the equipment you need. This is how I have housed temperate snakes like Corn snakes and rat snakes - substituting household light bulbs for the halogens - for decades and the snakes are still going strong. This is not the only way to do it, but it is a relatively cheap way to incorporate all the aspects of light we have been discussing. You can do it cheaper than this, but this would be entry-level for a beginner.

Those ZooMed combo units you linked to are the ones I mentioned in a previous post, they're a bit naff tbh, one reviewer found they stopped giving out UV after five days. Although you could substitute the fluorescent for a better quality one like Arcadia. Personally I would stick to t5s and a reflector, these are what I use above my exo terra enclosures for raising baby Lacertids and they work wonderfully. Or in a really big viv you could convert one of the Lightwave units to hold a bank of T5s of your choice.


Now, another controversial point - so what happens when a beginner decides to set up their new pet, and they get two differing opinions in each ear. One opinion urges them to do the best they can for their new pet, even if the initial outlay is slightly more - and let's face it even a couple of hundred quid is not THAT much for a new pet, a dog or cat would cost far more than that. The other school of thought says 'it's OK to cut corners, you don't NEED all those extra bells and whistles to keep the snake alive.'

OK you don't NEED all that equipment. In fact tbh I'd be satisfied with people just providing a good halogen and a UV kit for a crepuscular snake. But what do you think that new pet keeper is likely to DO with all that saved money from scrimping on equipment... they're going to buy another snake of course, and likely another, and another.... and frankly to my eyes it is far better that if they have enough money to buy a second snake, they use it to keep the FIRST snake as best they can FIRST and then buy another...

I'm hardly one to be telling people not to buy more snakes, but damn, that mindset seems outrageous to me. And if they cannot afford an initial outlay of £60-£90, how are they going to afford vet bills if something unfortunate happens to their pet. I am strongly of the opinion that pets are really for people that can afford to keep them properly, including being able to afford a vet bill at any time should the emergency come... call me crazy or whatever haha. If an extra £20 or £40 is completely untenable, should that person REALLY be buying that new pet, I wonder... just a thought.


----------



## Malc

We could probably go round in circles all night discussing the rights and wrongs, cost and methodology of keeping reptiles. I know technology moves on, but decades back people were keeping wild caught snakes in fish tanks with no more than a 100w tungsten spotlamp, yet some of the pioneers managed to keep them for long periods, and even managed to breed them. That is not to say that way is / was the correct way, and now with better understanding and developments such as UV tubes, new IR heaters and precision thermostats that this is what we should be using. This also brings into question the old chestnut of rubs vs vivs, and the ethics of keeping 100's of reptiles in dark draws, where no light provisions are made, let alone UV. I agree that a lot of people seem to feel that if they can save on the equipment then they can get more snakes, and if that means a plastic tub and heat mat for £30 as the way to keep them then that's the way people will do it.


----------



## Thrasops

Malc said:


> We could probably go round in circles all night discussing the rights and wrongs, cost and methodology of keeping reptiles. I know technology moves on, but decades back people were keeping wild caught snakes in fish tanks with no more than a 100w tungsten spotlamp, yet some of the pioneers managed to keep them for long periods, and even managed to breed them. That is not to say that way is / was the correct way, and now with better understanding and developments such as UV tubes, new IR heaters and precision thermostats that this is what we should be using. This also brings into question the old chestnut of rubs vs vivs, and the ethics of keeping 100's of reptiles in dark draws, where no light provisions are made, let alone UV. I agree that a lot of people seem to feel that if they can save on the equipment then they can get more snakes, and if that means a plastic tub and heat mat for £30 as the way to keep them then that's the way people will do it.


Haha, don't get me started.




When it comes to the ethics of keeping reptiles in dark draws and tubs... that's something people are going to have to square with themselves...


HOWEVER, from a welfare and scientifically-based standpoint, there's literally NO argument whatsoever that snakes benefit from richer, more complex and stimulating environment (that includes but is not restricted to things like UV and different kinds of light, for example, but also humidity gradient, diel-cycle, seasonal cycle, room to explore, proper thermal gradients, choice of hides, choice of furnishings etc.) in all kinds of ways, some of them rather huge (improvements to cognition, reduction in stress, better habituation, health benefits, more observable behaviours and so on).


When you literally have dozens of laboratory experiments replicating the same effect - to the point that in one, the size of the forebrains of animals kept in enriched enclosures was markedly larger than those kept in minimalist after just a few months, and they were doing things the animals kept in minimalist enclosures didn't - not to mention other experiments replicating this and showing improvements in prey handling time, learning ability, memory, reduction in stress, improvements in growth rate and so on, there's not really much one can say to dispute this. 


Unfortunately you are right, people will do it that way, and what is more upsetting is the amount of reaching you see when you present them with this information. It's a case of trying to educate slowly and methodically. Some grasp at it readily, with others it is an uphill struggle.


----------



## Arcadiajohn

I am firmly with Francis on this. I would much rather see keepers have 1-2 animals kept really well than heaps of animals with 'basic care'.


Product costs are very much lower in reality. The release last year of the ProT5 range bought a very sleek totally inclusive kit to the market from which you can buy a 24w kit, with % lamp of your choice for around £50 https://www.arcadiareptile.com/lighting/prot5/


For smaller or shallow vivs, the 'ShadeDwellerPro fitting is perfect, as per the lamp i mentioned in my original post. https://www.arcadiareptile.com/lighting/shadedweller-prot5/ These can be found as complete for around £35 all in.


We have 50 and 75w Halogens in the 'mini' design from which I chose a halogen mix to create a nice natural daylight output with plenty of IR. The 100w is PAR38 and very nice lamp indeed, perfect for larger species in larger vivs.


DHP is now available in 50 and 80w and is fully dimming stat controllable. It is the inclusion of this, filling in the spectrum gaps that I have seen the greatest increases in activity, decrease in basking time, increase in feeding aggression and predator avoidance and colouration. 


I have linear DHP already, this has been a project that i have worked on for nearly 9 years now, on and off and i have lots of ideas. The trouble with linear, is the insulation of the lamp. They can get very hot indeed and this poses a risk. In the glass lamp, the glass chosen is VERY insulating, which makes the lamp much safer to use than most other types. It was one of the reasons I liked to so much originally. 


UV lamp cage prices have dropped massively since LampGuardPro was releases this spring, your looking at less than £15.00 for a 2' easy access lamp cage.


But you are right, prices are higher than the old methods. However, we know far more now than we did then. As you know, i have been keeping since the 80s, we have all seen massive change. 


Yes we can keep animals seemingly 'ok' in basic care, but knowing what we know now...should we?


Can we continue to think of as 'heat' being of equal value amongst all heat sources, or do we use our expanding knowledge to see how the terrestrial wavelengths impact life. I guess for me, this is the difference between 'ticking over' and 'full throttle racing'


That is a moral choice of every keeper. 


I know how lucky i am, tech is no trouble to obtain and use, i just lump it all in and see what works best. For the new at home keeper on a budget, wise choices have to be made.


----------



## dps51

Malc said:


> I do like to look of these
> 
> image
> 
> Although they don't seem designed for internal use, more like suspended over a glass terrarium. Seems that the design has been taken from the aquatics industry as they look very much like the Vertex light units
> 
> image



I also have these light above my frog terrarium 
the blue light don't shine that much at night
I also think they are for outside a terrarium and not inside
as I don't know how they would withstand spraying of the of the terrarium


----------



## Potatatas

I think the moral standards for newbies are set by the reptile shops. They are often the first point of contact for many and in my experience I have been sold the minimum in almost all shops I've been to. If I hadn't done my own research, as some newbies might not, then I'd be keeping my snake as they had advised. I was told you just need one hide, a heatmat and a bag of aspen by the place I bought my king. I got a snarky answer when asking about UVB and including more hides/decor. As a newbie it's also difficult to question their advice as you come across as someone who thinks they know better and they get very sensitive about the care they provide.



One thing I often get told is "it's not necessary" and this is such an awful way of looking at keeping animals but I hear it so often. By that logic it's not necessary to walk a dog as it will still survive. I have a bit of disdain towards reptile shops in general plus I keep tarantulas and I am yet to see one shop that has any idea how to look after them...



I don't understand why shops have recommended the basic setup. I'd have thought they want to make more money. The only reason I can think of would be to keep up the myth that reptile keeping is cheap.


----------



## Tarron

Not all shops are like that Potatas.

My shop is dedicated to providing keepers with the best enclosures they can, so their animals get top care. 

We don't stock livestock anymore but when we did they were all quarantined before going on show, then setup in naturalistic enclosures with UVB and live plants, etc. And that's the standard we set for our customers. 

Over the last 5 years, newcomers have become more and more inspired by naturalistic enclosure which have gained in popularity, rather than their first experience being minimalist and racks.


----------



## Potatatas

Tarron said:


> Not all shops are like that Potatas.
> 
> My shop is dedicated to providing keepers with the best enclosures they can, so their animals get top care.
> 
> We don't stock livestock anymore but when we did they were all quarantined before going on show, then setup in naturalistic enclosures with UVB and live plants, etc. And that's the standard we set for our customers.
> 
> Over the last 5 years, newcomers have become more and more inspired by naturalistic enclosure which have gained in popularity, rather than their first experience being minimalist and racks.



I'm sure I've had some bad luck with shops around me!


Planning on going to Western Invert Show later this month which I've seen you and your shop will be at


----------



## dps51

I also have a great reptile shop which do not just sell you stuff and that is all the service and help you get
they will help you to setup your reptile the right way
they will also come to your house and set it all up for you the right way if you would like them to and at no extra charge 
you can ring them text or email for any help you need 
they will do there up must to help you the best they can


----------



## Tarron

Potatatas said:


> I'm sure I've had some bad luck with shops around me!
> 
> 
> Planning on going to Western Invert Show later this month which I've seen you and your shop will be at


Yes, we are at the Western Invert Show, also the Glasgow show if anyone is there


----------



## Potatatas

I was gunna post this as a seperate thread but I have tried to incorporate some of the methods discussed here. Hope thats alright

I've just finished redoing my snakes enclosure. I've added 7% arcadia mini uvb kit, given more substrate depth, added branches that allow access closer to heat source and uvb and added more hiding spaces. I will either be swapping the ceramic for a halogen or adding it alongside the ceramic. Also drilled holes for ventilation because I hate the stock vents so much!

In hindsight, I feel like I haven't given a good spot for heat and no uvb. I'm thinking to compensate for this setting the uvb to come on from 12pm - 4pm?

Other than that quite proud of it. Eventually I want to make it bioactive but for now i just want to see behaviour towards climbing spaces and uv. Atm he is exploring loads, burrowing and climbing. Also seen him possibly basking but could have just been having a rest. Now I just hope he doesn't decide to shit in an awkward spot to clean...

Any feedback, criticism, ways to improve, would be appreciated 🙂


----------



## Malc

Looks nice, and the snake seems to be having fun exploring the new set up


----------



## richardhind

Set up looks great 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## johndavidwoods

Potatatas said:


> In hindsight, I feel like I haven't given a good spot for heat and no uvb.


I often wonder why people don't make more use of bird boxes in vivs. Screwing one to the wall quite high up and close to the heat bulb would solve the heat with no UV dilemma. You may not like the look, though.


----------



## Thrasops

Potatatas said:


> I was gunna post this as a seperate thread but I have tried to incorporate some of the methods discussed here. Hope thats alright
> 
> I've just finished redoing my snakes enclosure. I've added 7% arcadia mini uvb kit, given more substrate depth, added branches that allow access closer to heat source and uvb and added more hiding spaces. I will either be swapping the ceramic for a halogen or adding it alongside the ceramic. Also drilled holes for ventilation because I hate the stock vents so much!
> 
> In hindsight, I feel like I haven't given a good spot for heat and no uvb. I'm thinking to compensate for this setting the uvb to come on from 12pm - 4pm?
> 
> Other than that quite proud of it. Eventually I want to make it bioactive but for now i just want to see behaviour towards climbing spaces and uv. Atm he is exploring loads, burrowing and climbing. Also seen him possibly basking but could have just been having a rest. Now I just hope he doesn't decide to shit in an awkward spot to clean...
> 
> Any feedback, criticism, ways to improve, would be appreciated 🙂


 
Looks great, the only minor things I might possibly change would be to add another hide pressed against the wall furthest from the heat source (preferably a flat rock or something) and, IF you do decide to switch to halogen, position another slab beneath that too. The snake will sit on it and bury itself beneath it and be able to thermoregulate both ways.


Kings burrow a lot anyway though, so it is not like these are particularly huge criticisms.



johndavidwoods said:


> I often wonder why people don't make more use of bird boxes in vivs. Screwing one to the wall quite high up and close to the heat bulb would solve the heat with no UV dilemma. You may not like the look, though.


 
I've tried it, there's a very good reason why - they are difficult to clean! Once a snake is using it regularly, you will find it quickly becomes filled with faeces and sheds and unless you unscrew the whole thing and take it out of the viv each time, it is really hard to clean.


Instead, a better option is to use RUBs. You screw the lid of the RUB to the ceiling of the viv, and then the actual tub itself can be removed and cleaned. All you need to do is cut a hole into the side of the tub for the snake to get in and out, and fill it with a soil/ sphagnum mix.


I also spray the outside of the tub to make it opaque and allow the snake to feel secure.


----------



## ThisisC4RL

what are your thoughts regarding these inc in a snake set up

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Derlights-...uv+led+light&qid=1563039199&s=gateway&sr=8-49

Led Grow Light Bulb Full Spectrum Plant Growth Lamp 54W E27 with Growing Light Blue & Red and IR + UV LED for Indoor Gardening Hydroponics System Aquatic Growing Plants.

or one of these 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANSI-Spec...m+Ceramic+LED&qid=1563041087&s=gateway&sr=8-1

SANSI LED Grow Light Bulb Full Spectrum Grow Lights 36w E27 Sunlike Hydroponic Lights for Indoor Plants Greenhouse Vegetable Tobacco and Organic Soil, Sunlight White, Full Cycle UV&IR



In my other tank I have the white python led lights but Im all for enriching the set up if it benefits the snake, more so when it costs nothing to run.


----------



## Thrasops

ThisisC4RL said:


> what are your thoughts regarding these inc in a snake set up
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Derlights-...uv+led+light&qid=1563039199&s=gateway&sr=8-49
> 
> Led Grow Light Bulb Full Spectrum Plant Growth Lamp 54W E27 with Growing Light Blue & Red and IR + UV LED for Indoor Gardening Hydroponics System Aquatic Growing Plants.
> 
> In my other tank I have the white python led lights but Im all for enriching the set up if it benefits the snake, more so when it costs nothing to run.


LED lights will give a good visible light output and this bulb looks like it has a nice broad range - but they give no useful UV; they are great for brightening up a cage and even stimulating basking behaviours, but in all honesty there are cheaper alternatives available - I personally use Kinfire or Jungle Dawn, but there's no reason that bulb wouldn't suffice.


Use them in conjunction with a heater and a UV light.


----------



## ThisisC4RL

Thrasops said:


> *but they give no useful UV;* they are great for brightening up a cage and even stimulating basking behaviours, but in all honesty there are cheaper alternatives available
> 
> 
> Use them in conjunction with a heater and a UV light.


any recommendations regarding LED/UV bulb, only reason i was researching these are the UV properties, as you say for pure light any decent LED strip will do, £10 for strip that people buy for the back of their TVs.
Whilst Im in the middle of building my new setup Im interested in giving the snake UV but ideally in the form of LED as they are cheap to run,


----------



## Thrasops

ThisisC4RL said:


> any recommendations regarding LED/UV bulb, only reason i was researching these are the UV properties, as you say for pure light any decent LED strip will do, £10 for strip that people buy for the back of their TVs.
> Whilst Im in the middle of building my new setup Im interested in giving the snake UV but ideally in the form of LED as they are cheap to run,


For UV I would personally always advise Arcadia T5 bulbs. They are the best on the market for what they do.


----------



## Malc

OK, with my female lesser pastel royal going into her pre-lay shed I'm looking at building a stack of vivs by converting a bookcase to house the hatchlings in. I'm looking at something that will house them for upwards of 18-24 months, so each bookcase will be divided up to give 4 vivs of 78cm (L) x 30cm (w) x 47cm (h). 

I'm planning on implementing some of the suggestions here, but would like some feedback. Firstly, for belly heat at night I'm planning on using 11" x 11" heat mats on pulse pro stats. Above these mats I'm looking at fitting GU10 lamp holders and using 28w halogen lamps, the specs of which are:

Electrical Data:
Rated power: 28 W
Dimmable : Yes
Nominal voltage: AC 220 - 240 V
Operating Frequency: 50 - 60 Hz
Power Factor: 1
Photome Electric Data:
Nominal luminous flux: 350 lm
Rated luminous flux: 350 lm
Colour Temperature: 2700 K
Light colour: 827 (warm white)
Colour Rendering Index: Ra 100
Beam Angle: 110 °

The length of the bulb is 55mm total (normally over the pins), so allowing for the holder and substrate the lamp face would be 39-40cm above the substrate. I intend to use these directly on a timer with no thermostat. The theory is that with the mat set to 32c, if the lamp heats the substrate above this temperature then the thermostat will turn the mats off, leaving the lamp to produce the hot spot. This way should the lamp ever fail, the mat will provide a backup so the snake would never go cold.

My concern is that with such a wide beam angle, it won't give the desired effect of concentrating the heat / light. But I don't want too narrow an beam angle otherwise you wouldn't be able to provide area that would warm the whole of the snake. I'm hoping that the lamp would also provide some UV for the snakes. I can't run to the expense of installing what might be 7 or 8 x T5 UV tubes at this moment in time, but should my personal circumstances change....

Would welcome your comments - or recommendation to alternative 28w GU10 lamps


----------



## Arcadiajohn

Full-Spectrum UV LEDs simply do not exist at the moment. They are too narrow in the wavelengths to create an even replication of daylight, power hungry and only project these narrow bands to a couple of inches. They also loose 80%+ of their energy in the first few hours and cost about £80 per diode. You would then need a mix of roughly 12 diodes to cover the UV-B/UV-A spectrum over an area of around 6" wide and 2-4" deep. This would create zoning or 'pin-spotting' of the wavelengths rather than a daylight flood and you would have no visible light. Currently, it would take 20 watts+ to cover every 6" of space---very badly.


ShadeDweller is true Full-Spectrum+UV-B and uses the very latest German phosphor tech to create a nice flood of daylight and to a depth 12-15" deep. It draws 8watts, is a true flood and allows you to create defined areas of light and shade for natural self-regulation. 


LEDs may be usable one day, but we are still at least 5 years away, if not 10.


Hope this helps.




ThisisC4RL said:


> any recommendations regarding LED/UV bulb, only reason i was researching these are the UV properties, as you say for pure light any decent LED strip will do, £10 for strip that people buy for the back of their TVs.
> Whilst Im in the middle of building my new setup Im interested in giving the snake UV but ideally in the form of LED as they are cheap to run,


----------



## Arcadiajohn

The little halogens are very useful, as are most halogens. They have the highest CRI of everyday lamps also. They will work well to create a usable beam of energy and if you place a decent slate under them they will create a basking area of radiant energy also within the longer wavelengths of IR. 


They will produce a very small amount of UV-A. Nothing like that of a full-spectrum+UV-B lamp of course and no UV-B. Just long wavelength UV-A really.


I totally understand the cost aspect of gearing up, its a nightmare for everyone. I guess one of the good things with units such as the ShadeDweller-MiniKit and ShadeDwellerPro is, that they only draw 8watts and both offer linking. So, you could invest in one and use that over the snake you feel would benefit most, and then add kits over the years to suit via the daisy chain. You can link up to 10 from 1 power source.


if you wanted to of course. 


ShadeDwellerPro can be found instore and online as a complete kit including the lamp for around £35.00.. not as much as these things used to be at least




Malc said:


> OK, with my female lesser pastel royal going into her pre-lay shed I'm looking at building a stack of vivs by converting a bookcase to house the hatchlings in. I'm looking at something that will house them for upwards of 18-24 months, so each bookcase will be divided up to give 4 vivs of 78cm (L) x 30cm (w) x 47cm (h).
> 
> I'm planning on implementing some of the suggestions here, but would like some feedback. Firstly, for belly heat at night I'm planning on using 11" x 11" heat mats on pulse pro stats. Above these mats I'm looking at fitting GU10 lamp holders and using 28w halogen lamps, the specs of which are:
> 
> Electrical Data:
> Rated power: 28 W
> Dimmable : Yes
> Nominal voltage: AC 220 - 240 V
> Operating Frequency: 50 - 60 Hz
> Power Factor: 1
> Photome Electric Data:
> Nominal luminous flux: 350 lm
> Rated luminous flux: 350 lm
> Colour Temperature: 2700 K
> Light colour: 827 (warm white)
> Colour Rendering Index: Ra 100
> Beam Angle: 110 °
> 
> The length of the bulb is 55mm total (normally over the pins), so allowing for the holder and substrate the lamp face would be 39-40cm above the substrate. I intend to use these directly on a timer with no thermostat. The theory is that with the mat set to 32c, if the lamp heats the substrate above this temperature then the thermostat will turn the mats off, leaving the lamp to produce the hot spot. This way should the lamp ever fail, the mat will provide a backup so the snake would never go cold.
> 
> My concern is that with such a wide beam angle, it won't give the desired effect of concentrating the heat / light. But I don't want too narrow an beam angle otherwise you wouldn't be able to provide area that would warm the whole of the snake. I'm hoping that the lamp would also provide some UV for the snakes. I can't run to the expense of installing what might be 7 or 8 x T5 UV tubes at this moment in time, but should my personal circumstances change....
> 
> Would welcome your comments - or recommendation to alternative 28w GU10 lamps


----------



## Thrasops

Malc said:


> OK, with my female lesser pastel royal going into her pre-lay shed I'm looking at building a stack of vivs by converting a bookcase to house the hatchlings in. I'm looking at something that will house them for upwards of 18-24 months, so each bookcase will be divided up to give 4 vivs of 78cm (L) x 30cm (w) x 47cm (h).
> 
> I'm planning on implementing some of the suggestions here, but would like some feedback. Firstly, for belly heat at night I'm planning on using 11" x 11" heat mats on pulse pro stats. Above these mats I'm looking at fitting GU10 lamp holders and using 28w halogen lamps, the specs of which are:
> 
> Electrical Data:
> Rated power: 28 W
> Dimmable : Yes
> Nominal voltage: AC 220 - 240 V
> Operating Frequency: 50 - 60 Hz
> Power Factor: 1
> Photome Electric Data:
> Nominal luminous flux: 350 lm
> Rated luminous flux: 350 lm
> Colour Temperature: 2700 K
> Light colour: 827 (warm white)
> Colour Rendering Index: Ra 100
> Beam Angle: 110 °
> 
> The length of the bulb is 55mm total (normally over the pins), so allowing for the holder and substrate the lamp face would be 39-40cm above the substrate. I intend to use these directly on a timer with no thermostat. The theory is that with the mat set to 32c, if the lamp heats the substrate above this temperature then the thermostat will turn the mats off, leaving the lamp to produce the hot spot. This way should the lamp ever fail, the mat will provide a backup so the snake would never go cold.
> 
> My concern is that with such a wide beam angle, it won't give the desired effect of concentrating the heat / light. But I don't want too narrow an beam angle otherwise you wouldn't be able to provide area that would warm the whole of the snake. I'm hoping that the lamp would also provide some UV for the snakes. I can't run to the expense of installing what might be 7 or 8 x T5 UV tubes at this moment in time, but should my personal circumstances change....
> 
> Would welcome your comments - or recommendation to alternative 28w GU10 lamps



It sounds like a plan, the only thing I would say is IF you are going to be running the GU10s without a stat (which is perfectly possible, I do it myself) _do_ make sure to have the enclosure running for a few days before you put snakes in so you can measure how hot it gets in there.


I use single 20w Lucky Reptile mini halogens in 36x18x18 and they heat it up nicely without a stat, your enclosures are slightly smaller and are stacked, so we don't know how that will affect them (the lights/ heaters from beneath will gently warm the floor of the viv above, and different lights/ GU10s/ wattages/ beam widths might have different effects, for example).


So, I would make sure to use a cheap max/ min thermometer inside the vivs to ensure temperatures don't exceed the critical limits - you can get cheap ones from your local Garden centre, or Online at Amazon or Screwfix for under a tenner. Just pop it at the cool end and check to ensure it does not exceed your gradient after a full day's use.


Having a heat mat in there on a stat for night time heat is actually a good idea, might try that myself actually.


As John said above, those halogens won't give any UVB and minimal UVA so they are best used for heating and lighting - you'd need a different light for UV, something like one of the cheaper Shade Dwellers would be ideal.


----------



## Malc

Thanks for the reply. 

The logic behind the heat mat was mainly down to fact I keep mostly royals which spend all day in their hides, but still look for heat after the lights go out, especially after feeding. 

I've just completed a small test before reading your reply. I used the same test box that I used for testing my thermostat development projects, which is basically a 16" x 12" x 12" box made from 18mm melamine.










The DS18B20 digital sensor was placed under a halogen lamp at a distance of 200mm. It was so hard to find an electrical retailer that still stocked halogen GU10 lamps, but finally found one that sold me a APL 50w 36 degree 500 lm lamp.

The room temperature was 22.8c when I did the test. The base temperature before the lamp was powered up was 21.6c. After 30 minutes the sensor was reporting a temperature of 59.25c, even with the front exposed and uncovered.

The top of the enclosure (inside) averaged 93c and you could feel the heat through the wood on the outside, which in a stack isn't ideal. The ceramic holder averaged 110c, with the edge of the lamp reading 195c. The glass part of the lamp reached 226c - so clearly these lamps need a guard to protect the reptile from being burnt.

Now you mentioned you use 20w, and given those results with a 50w it's clear that a 35w would be ample in the "standard" 36" x 18" x 18" vivarium. Unless you buy cheap off Amazon / Ebay etc, then there isn't much in price between GU10 Halogens and the Lucky Reptile lamps. 

I think that using halogens is ideal for kings / corns and other diurnal snakes where the ambient air temperature is not critical, but for boa's, pythons and other tropical species where the air temps remain in the low to mid 20's (Centigrade) at night, even in the winter months, ceramics are the option (I haven't used John's projector system, so can't comment on its suitability) for heating where these reptiles are concerned.

Whats needed is a small GU10 sized lamp that is affordable (ie mo more than a fiver) that can provide the 5-10% UVA / UVB like a T5 tube. That coupled with something like Johns projector system that generates the IR spectrum as well and I think we have a real winning combination.

There you go John, I've laid the gantlet down to you to come up with a GU10 UV lamp to compliment your projector


----------



## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> The logic behind the heat mat was mainly down to fact I keep mostly royals which spend all day in their hides, but still look for heat after the lights go out, especially after feeding.
> 
> I've just completed a small test before reading your reply. I used the same test box that I used for testing my thermostat development projects, which is basically a 16" x 12" x 12" box made from 18mm melamine.
> 
> image
> 
> The DS18B20 digital sensor was placed under a halogen lamp at a distance of 200mm. It was so hard to find an electrical retailer that still stocked halogen GU10 lamps, but finally found one that sold me a APL 50w 36 degree 500 lm lamp.
> 
> The room temperature was 22.8c when I did the test. The base temperature before the lamp was powered up was 21.6c. After 30 minutes the sensor was reporting a temperature of 59.25c, even with the front exposed and uncovered.
> 
> The top of the enclosure (inside) averaged 93c and you could feel the heat through the wood on the outside, which in a stack isn't ideal. The ceramic holder averaged 110c, with the edge of the lamp reading 195c. The glass part of the lamp reached 226c - so clearly these lamps need a guard to protect the reptile from being burnt.
> 
> Now you mentioned you use 20w, and given those results with a 50w it's clear that a 35w would be ample in the "standard" 36" x 18" x 18" vivarium. Unless you buy cheap off Amazon / Ebay etc, then there isn't much in price between GU10 Halogens and the Lucky Reptile lamps.
> 
> I think that using halogens is ideal for kings / corns and other diurnal snakes where the ambient air temperature is not critical, but for boa's, pythons and other tropical species where the air temps remain in the low to mid 20's (Centigrade) at night, even in the winter months, ceramics are the option (I haven't used John's projector system, so can't comment on its suitability) for heating where these reptiles are concerned.
> 
> Whats needed is a small GU10 sized lamp that is affordable (ie mo more than a fiver) that can provide the 5-10% UVA / UVB like a T5 tube. That coupled with something like Johns projector system that generates the IR spectrum as well and I think we have a real winning combination.
> 
> There you go John, I've laid the gantlet down to you to come up with a GU10 UV lamp to compliment your projector


 
A 50W Halogen is going to be _ridiculously_ overpowered for an enclosure that size, I read they were 28W in the original post and even that figure caused me some concern. I find even a 35W is too powerful (un-statted) within a 36x18x18" - as I said, I use 20w bulbs and they heat a viv that size perfectly.


For tropical snakes or species that require higher night time heat (in my case various _Boiga_, _Chrysopelea_, Tree boas and so on) I personally prefer to use a combination of halogen and ceramic, as I said in a previous post.


You can get cheap 20w ceramics for about £3-£4 that are perfect for providing a gentle background warmth, although thanks to the way ceramics work they _will_ need a thermostat. That way you provide a nice basking spot for daytime basking (with the halogen), and a constant background temperature as well that will cut in once the halogens go off (with the ceramic).


I still find this preferable to a ceramic/ heat mat combo as you are providing a constant background temperature, a focussed basking spot with all the benefits detailed earlier, and "belly heat" beneath the halogen if the snake wants it. Even the nocturnal snakes above make use of the basking spot quite often (my tree boas are almost always somewhere beneath the beam) and I've no doubt whatsoever a Royal would use it too.


I like the Lucky Reptile lamps above the standard GU10s nowadays as - as you found out - it is getting quite hard to find good quality GU10s suitable for our purposes as their sale has been restricted - and most of the commonly sold reptile fixtures are E27 so using GU10s requires a converter, which is an additional expense. The Lucky Reptile bulbs on the other hand are E27 and should fit into all the commonly used reptile fittings. Saves a bit of frustration.


----------



## Thrasops

There's a fantastic podcast at Reptile 'n' Chill here given by Roman Muryn where he talks about the concepts we are discussing on this thread, his own exceptional collection and the upcoming Advancing Herpetological Husbandry conference in the USA this September. Strongly recommend giving it a listen, Roman has a talent for breaking down difficult to understand concepts so they are easy to understand.


https://www.spreaker.com/user/midla...2V7bv-k3HfT0g-hnFvnqVsy3TBwTCF97_dpsDmImqffAA


----------



## DW2013

*Blimey*

I've been off RFUK for some years now, and have just come back (actually for the classifieds) but I have forgotten the potential for some really good info. Thanks Francis.


----------



## Thrasops

More pics of the new Western Black tree snakes (_Thrasops occidentalis_).

Both specimens have taken two feeds each and faecals have been collected.

This will be their quarantine enclosure for the first few months, although going forward I've got a six foot tall cupboard I will be converting for them to live in. Not sure the wife is fully aware of this, mind... although I did mention this to her a few weeks ago and she murmured back...

Interesting to note how confident (read: viv defensive) these guys are compared to my _Thrasops jacksonii_. The male in particular has developed the habit of rushing at me, inflating it's neck and bluff-striking at me whenever I'm near the viv.





































For most species, quarantine is a simple tub or small viv, a bit of newspaper or kitchen towel, a hide and a water bowl. Even for me. Species like this however, which are incredibly alert and stressy and notice EVERYTHING going on outside their enclosure, are best shoved into something a bit more like what many would consider a permanent viv. Lots of light, a bit of UV, lots of shade, lots of hiding places so they can feel secure and exercise natural basking behaviours.

Once the results of the faecals come back I'll decide how to treat them, but first thing is to get them habituated to being in captivity, and make sure they continue eating and remain stress-free. That is priority one. Treatment for the inevitable load of worms and assorted other internal parasites will follow.


----------



## Malc

Linking this to your other post in the co-habiting thread, given that two snakes are in one viv, how do you know what snake produced the faecal matter and thus which one to treat if anything is found?


----------



## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Linking this to your other post in the co-habiting thread, given that two snakes are in one viv, how do you know what snake produced the faecal matter and thus which one to treat if anything is found?


I collected the faecal matter before the snakes went in this viv, they first go in a simple tub for a few days on white paper. Normally I leave them in that kind of tub for a week or more, but _Thrasops_ defaecate almost constantly (more like birds than snakes) so it is easy to collect some quickly.

However it all gets sent in together, the snakes came in on one shipment and were housed together before I got them, so will receive the one treatment. When you send faecals it can be for one snake or several (sharing the same cage). So you just collect a couple of poops and send it in one bag.

It goes without saying, if the snakes had come in on different imports, or if one was established and one was freshly imported, it would be months before they were ever introduced to one another.


----------



## Thrasops

Welp... I finally did it. I got _Spilotes pullatus_ (Tiger rat snakes). A dream species of mine since I saw and fed the trio kept at Jersey back in 1998.
These are now easily the biggest Colubrids I've ever owned. Housing them in something anywhere near decent will be an interesting challenge (they absolutely dwarf the 60"x36" quarantine enclosure, which still needs a _lot _of TLC). Once they pass quarantine I am thinking of cladding an industrial rack with wood to make a 72" long, 72" high setup for them.


Really looking forward to keeping these very much.


----------



## Alfonzo

Very interesting thread! I would like to ask for some tailored advice if I may be so bold, having been away for 4+ years!

I really like the look of this light/shade set ups... would the following work for 7'l x 28"d x 20" high?

50w Halogen basking spotlamp
34" Arcadia ProT5 UV lamps (6/7%)
250w AHS heaters down the cool end (only to safeguard against low winter ambient temps)


The animals in question are FWC....

Appreciate guidance for the lighting gurus - the housing is being upgraded, might as well do it really properly!


The vivs are in a cabin in the garden. It is basically a very well insulated shed but all the same, gets hotter than a house in summer and colder than one in winter. Summer is harder as I don't have A/C, but in winter it gets stabilised with an oil filled rad.


----------



## Thrasops

Alfonzo said:


> Very interesting thread! I would like to ask for some tailored advice if I may be so bold, having been away for 4+ years!
> 
> I really like the look of this light/shade set ups... would the following work for 7'l x 28"d x 20" high?
> 
> 50w Halogen basking spotlamp
> 34" Arcadia ProT5 UV lamps (6/7%)
> 250w AHS heaters down the cool end (only to safeguard against low winter ambient temps)
> 
> 
> The animals in question are FWC....
> 
> Appreciate guidance for the lighting gurus - the housing is being upgraded, might as well do it really properly!
> 
> 
> The vivs are in a cabin in the garden. It is basically a very well insulated shed but all the same, gets hotter than a house in summer and colder than one in winter. Summer is harder as I don't have A/C, but in winter it gets stabilised with an oil filled rad.



Ha! Long time no see! How are things?


I've not got much experience with the AHS heaters, I tested a couple out a few years back and decided they weren't for me. Falsies don't like ambient temperatures to be TOO high though, so personally I would actually pick multiple low wattage halogens for a setup like that (a couple of 50W over one side should do it to create a large but localised basking area) with a LOW wattage (35w) ceramic on stat to ensure night temperatures don't drop below required limits in winter. I've found room temperatures to be fine for this species at night.


The Arcadia fluorescents are best in market IMO, so they'd be perfect for the viv. If you wanted to make it decently bright you could go for LEDs or even a ceiling light (Andrew Grimm showed me these cheaply available on Amazon that are ideal for lighting larger vivs).


----------



## Helvetica

For lighting purposes only LED strips like those used in under cabinet kitchen lighting are just perfect. Normally come as a set of 30 cm strips you can choose where to place them and there's a lot of variation in the colours too. 
By that I don't mean neon pink but you can have a bright white strip on one side and an amber yellow on the other so there is variation during the day. 
Easy to install and cheap to run. My only note is that relying on the sticky back is not worth it. When I'm installing them a little blob of reptile safe silicon on the back makes sure they last, even if your snake tries to use them to climb. 


Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk


----------



## Thrasops

So with November almost done all of my temperate snakes are now being cooled or brumated for another year, lights are off and my snake rooms look very dark and boring now.

Here are a few photos from before the majority of the lights went off.

A corner of my lounge, where I grow on many young temperate rat snakes and also keep some of the newer arrivals that have passed quarantine (it is easiest for me to observe them from here and they are better than any TV program).










One of my adult Dione's rat snakes (_Elaphe dione_). Just really pleasant, small, confident snakes that make fantastic pets. Cannot recommend them enough.




























Better look at a couple of vivs for a Dione's (bottom) and one of my Twin-Spotted rat snakes (Elaphe bimaculata - top)










And a growing on Russian rat snake (_Elaphe schrenckii_). This is a small animal, only four feet. Some of my adults are around seven feet.










While they do not require much in the way of heat, they do love to bask under the UV, leisurely sprawled around the middle of the enclosure.





























My Russian and Dione's rat snakes get the longest brumation periods and will not be roused until the end of February.

From across the pond, here is a Chequered Garter snake I recently rehomed via David Willis. Very nice snake, and my favourite species of Garter by far. Another fantastic choice for a beginner that does not want to go the more usual way of a Royal python or Corn snake.




















And back to Asia with one of my Taiwan Beauty snakes (_Elaphe taeniurus friesii_)




















Some yearling Aesculapian snakes I have been growing on. These have been housed in small Exo Terras but have basically doubled in size this year so will be put into something larger when they are out from brumation.

A normal specimen:



















And a melanistic:











An enclosure for a Western Hognosed snake (more pics of which later)











And a snake that will be cooled, but not brumated. A Children's Python (_Antaresia childreni_)


----------



## Thrasops

A few better pics of one of my Western Hognosed snakes (_Heterodon nasicus_) affectionately known as 'Widget' basking and perching. I rehomed this guy from another friend earlier this year, next year I will integrate him with my older trio to make two pairs.














































I've always had a very soft spot for Hognosed snakes, they have very lovable characters. They are active little things, always great fun to watch. Many mistakenly assume they are fossorial - they're actually not _that _fossorial, they certainly like to burrow and dig around but they are also very active hunters (they move around a lot looking for toads to dig up).

Like many 'terrestrial' snakes they will climb around on any cage furnishings you put into their enclosure - 18" or 24" of height may seem like a lot for a small snake to our eyes inside a viv, but really it is nothing, they will climb over and explore everything in their cage. He is also basking nearer the lights to get a bit of warmth, as the actual halogen heat source has been turned off for a few weeks now in preparation to brumate him for winter.

The substrate I use is a mix of soil and sand with a bit of fine grit mixed in, and on top of that some desiccated pine needles. It is quite deep, 4-6" so he has plenty of depth to burrow in when he wants.


----------



## Thrasops

Was given a beautiful Children's Python (_Antaresia childreni_) in wonderful condition to re-home earlier this year too. I usually don't accept rehomes in general as I'd have no space left, but this year I have taken on a fair few from friends and am very pleased with them.

So, I grabbed my family of _Cordylus tropidosternum_ and unceremoniously moved them and their progeny out of their enclosure and into something bigger (more on which another time) and dumped the python in instead.










What a character he has turned out to be...


----------



## Malc

I'd love to see a wide angle shot of your room to see how the vivs all stack up - must be a large room 

Wonder what your electricity bill is each month....


----------



## Thrasops

Malc said:


> I'd love to see a wide angle shot of your room to see how the vivs all stack up - must be a large room
> 
> Wonder what your electricity bill is each month....












I have three rooms with vivs, this is one side of the lounge (it's a bit long to do a wide shot) where I keep younger rat snakes and random new things I feel like watching from the sofa. There are 38 vivs of various sizes in here, from a few 30x30x45cm and 45cm cubed exos where baby snakes are raised to 48x24x24" rat snake enclosures. Some of those vivs are empty right now. Most are 48x18x18" though, stacked like this.

My middle room has another 8 vivs and is used for hard quarantine, although it could be said that both rooms in my flat are used for quarantine in the long sense of the word. Right now there are just the _Thrasops_ and Tiger rat snakes in there.

Finally I have around 55 vivs at my Mum's house (which I have a share in) where much of my long term collection and larger animals are kept (Psammophiids, whip snakes, older rat snakes, tropical snakes etc). Although with any luck I will buy that house in the next few years when my Mum moves back to Gibraltar.

Electricity bill a my flat is pretty high, comes to about £140 a month or so during active seasons although that will calm down a bit until February.

(That pic is actually a few months old, am currently at work but may put up more pics from a wider angle later showing how things stack).


----------



## Thrasops

Finally some pics of my _Psammophis praeornatus_ (Striped Swamp snake). Sadly still refusing anything but lizards but otherwise doing very well.





































So far I have found this to be a very shy snake, it is often out basking when I enter the room but as soon as it sees me it will scarper or curl up in the thicket of bamboo roots. If I remain quiet at the other end of the room it will eventually come back out.


----------



## Thrasops

Speaking of tropical snakes, some recent pics of my male Paradise Flying snake (_Chrysopelea paradisii_), probably the most colourful snake in my collection and a strong contender for most beautiful snake species in the world in my opinion.

I have been keeping their relative, _C. ornata_ since 2004, but it was with some trepidation that I bought my pair of _C. paradisii_ in 2014 as I had always heard they are very delicate and steadfastly refuse rodents. I found both to be untrue. Certainly they are not beginner snakes, but if left alone and unstressed they do just fine, mine both ate f/t rodents from day one, although I do try and supplement this with as many lizards as I can give them as well as frog's legs (my fear being that a diet of just rodents is too fatty for these snakes).


----------



## Thrasops

A big, beautiful adult Russian rat snake (_Elaphe schrenckii_) from before it went into brumation. These guys are too huge at seven feet to go into a fridge, so I put them out into my shed in 84l tubs full of soil, with a half-buried hide box inside. I have seen them active at just 2c and they endure the UK cold easily, being one of the most cold-tolerant snakes currently commonly kept in the hobby (only Dione's rat snakes of Russian localities and some northern Garter snake subspecies really compare in how harsh an environment they can endure).

These are regal, adorable snakes beloved by all who keep them. I cannot really recommend them enough, if you can provide them the space; at a girthy six or seven feet long as adults they really deserve at least a six foot viv as a minimum in my opinion.


----------



## Thrasops

My Louisiana Milk snake (_Lampropeltis triangulum amaura/ L. gentilis_, depending on which taxonomy you follow and where this particular specimen actually came from) basking under the UV a few weeks back.

I have had this snake about five months (since July) and in that time I've seen it basking by day maybe once a month, the rest of the time he only is active at night.

BUT that occasional bask under the UV is enough, we know serum D3 breaks down gradually over several weeks or months, so the snake could be "topping up" as it needs to. This is exactly why I will always provide UV even to nocturnal reptiles (although it must be said most of my nocturnal animals bask far more frequently than this one). They may not use it all the time, or even often... But they WILL use it occasionally.

This subspecies of Milk snake is pretty cool. They're tiny, for one thing - this one is barely 20" long and they don't get much longer than that so are tiny compared to their more commonly kept cousins like Hondurans. Really great for smaller vivs.


----------



## Thrasops

One of my smaller King rat snakes (Elaphe carinata) basking, again before it was put away for brumation.

King rats display a wide degree of variance in colour... Not just from locality to locality but also the degree to which they change to adult colours. This specimen has been bright yellow since it was two feet long. Another specimen I have retained its juvenile colour until it was more than twice this size and much older.

These are adaptable and opportunistic rat snakes that will climb if given a chance and will take a wide range of prey - rodents, birds and their eggs, lizards and even other snakes. They also get rather large and can be very girthy as mature adults, although I'm not sure if the chunkiness of some of the bigger animals I've seen was down to overfeeding in captivity.


----------



## Thrasops

_Elaphe bimaculata _(Twin spotted rat snake). A really cool, secretive small rat snake from China. In years gone by they were commonly kept but have become somewhat hard to find these days, which is a crying shame as they are beautiful and hardy.


----------



## Thrasops

About five months in, my pair of _Thrasops occidentalis_ (Western Black Tree snakes) are finally bold enough to hang around whilst I am servicing their viv. Doing great and both drop feeding on f/t mice. Still technically in quarantine but responding extremely well.

Pleased.

This species has slightly different mannerisms to _T. jacksonii_, which I've been keeping since about 2004/2005 and which are a LOT more confident...


----------



## Thrasops

And with that, I have for the first time pre-empted my usual post-Christmas "Thrasops Thread"...


----------



## Zincubus

Soooooo what’s this snake, bud ??










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Thrasops

Zincubus said:


> Soooooo what’s this snake, bud ??image
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


That is a _Thrasops occidentalis_. Western Black Tree snake.


----------



## Malc

38 vivs !!! - must be single as I couldn't get that passed my missus !

£140 pm isn't bad. We pay £160pm but that was with just four viv with 150w CHE's and a marine aquarium (plus all the normal PCs / tvs etc). It's probably going to go up as I have four more vis (two with 150w CHE's, 2 with 23w heat mats)

The colours on those flying snakes- just amazing !


----------



## Thrasops

Malc said:


> 38 vivs !!! - must be single as I couldn't get that passed my missus !
> 
> £140 pm isn't bad. We pay £160pm but that was with just four viv with 150w CHE's and a marine aquarium (plus all the normal PCs / tvs etc). It's probably going to go up as I have four more vis (two with 150w CHE's, 2 with 23w heat mats)
> 
> The colours on those flying snakes- just amazing !


Happily married (she had to take the snakes with me haha) but on the condition the collection does not grow more than it currently is, which I consider more than fair. The agreement is I can fill the few vivs I currently have that are still empty and that is it.

That seems a lot per month for just four vivs? Bear in mind most of mine are lit by fluorescents and heated by 20w halogens, with all equipment turned off at night (save for tropical stuff but I don't have too many truly tropical species any more). That's still quite a disparity though! We don't really use much else in electrical equipment though.


----------



## Malc

A very understanding wife you have there 

I'm running 4 x 150w CHEs (at the moment) and 6 x 23w mats, plus a marine tank that has 300w heater, 200w lights and several pumps. We also have two PCs which are on most of the day, and two TVs... plus the normal washer, dryer, couple of fridges etc. Once the royals are grown on a tad, the hold backs will be going into vivs, so that's another three 150w CHEs..... I keep meaning to get one of those watt meters that shows how much is being consumed by whatever is plugged in just to see the true power consumption and running costs. - One of the biggest that people don't realise is the PC. Even at idle it can be drawing 60-100w per hour... leave a PC on for 10 hours and that's 1KW a day !!

Love the set up you have, and the way you have each viv set up as well


----------



## ScottStewart

I really enjoyed this post


----------



## **louise**

I'm setting up some 4ft vivariums (15 inch deep and high) and not sure which wattage or type halogen lamp to use. Would the 20w mini be enough. It's for corn snakes. Thanks.


----------



## Thrasops

**louise** said:


> I'm setting up some 4ft vivariums (15 inch deep and high) and not sure which wattage or type halogen lamp to use. Would the 20w mini be enough. It's for corn snakes. Thanks.


Yes, I use 20w halogens for my 48"x18"x18" wooden vivaria, this is more than enough to heat them for a temperate snake. If you place a flat stone directly beneath them, they will warm up, allowing the snake to either sit on them and allow the overhead heat to warm them, or curl up under them and absorb heat from above. They will also retain warmth for some time after lights out so the snake can continue to warm itself after dark, much as they will on rocks and road surfaces in the wild.


----------



## **louise**

Thrasops said:


> Yes, I use 20w halogens for my 48"x18"x18" wooden vivaria, this is more than enough to heat them for a temperate snake. If you place a flat stone directly beneath them, they will warm up, allowing the snake to either sit on them and allow the overhead heat to warm them, or curl up under them and absorb heat from above. They will also retain warmth for some time after lights out so the snake can continue to warm itself after dark, much as they will on rocks and road surfaces in the wild.


Perfect, Thanks. I used to set the vivs up with spot lamps and basking stones but never used halogen before. Looking forward to getting them set up :2thumb:


----------



## Thrasops

The first snake of the year rouses from brumation. Chequered Garter snake (_Thamnophis marcianus_). It was already active in the fridge when I checked so I decided to bring it out and it is now happily soaking in some UV.

During the first AHH conference in Rodeo, New Mexico (at the Chiricahua Desert Museum) last year, members of the AHH team found this species in the wild so I use climate data from there to judge how to keep mine. Right now temperatures there are currently reaching 15-18c so they would probably already be emerging around now too.























































Quite a few of the Asian rat snakes are getting active too so I'll be warming them up too this week.


----------



## Thrasops

Spending more time at home due to reduced working hours thanks to this Coronavirus meltdown so here are a few pics of comings and goings in my snake rooms whilst I am supposed to be working.

First up one of the smaller Western Coachwhips (_Masticophis testaceus flagellum_)










Playing peekaboo.


----------



## Thrasops

The little female Balkan whip snake (_Hierophis gemonensis_) out of brumation and begging for food incessantly.


----------



## Thrasops

One of the reasons I love Dione's rat snakes (_Elaphe dione_) is their cheekiness and almost brazen curiosity. Not afraid of the keeper at all and investigate everything that comes near them. here a North China locality animal doesn't even give me a chance to fill the water bowl before drinking from the bottle.



















For me easily one of the best beginner snakes, if not THE best.


----------



## Thrasops

Schokari sand snakes (_Psammophis schokari_) have always been one of my most photogenic snakes and I have shared many photos of my group over the years, I am not sure any have beaten this inquisitive fellow though.





































Extremely cool little snakes indeed, with a host of interesting behaviours.


----------



## Thrasops

Yearling Aesculapian snakes (Zamenis longissimus). This is the Passau locality. I have a group of this species of varying ages now, criminally underrated snakes. Incredibly hardy and ferociously ravenous once out of their first brumation.


----------



## Thrasops

And one from right now. These Twin-Spotted rat snakes (_Elaphe bimaculata_) have been locked for the last eighteen hours. Literally shed after brumation and were mating before I could clean out the shed. Looking forward to some babies of these, never enough of them around.


----------



## ian14

Thrasops said:


> Yearling Aesculapian snakes (Zamenis longissimus). This is the Passau locality. I have a group of this species of varying ages now, criminally underrated snakes. Incredibly hardy and ferociously ravenous once out of their first brumation.
> 
> image
> 
> image


Of all the snakes I have kept this was without doubt my favourite.
Easy to keep, easy to breed, with hatchlings very easy to start feeding.
The adults are a nice size, generally calm, and very inquisitive.


----------



## Roseanna

So refreshing to see something other than royals posted on here! Even better to see such unique and hardly kept species :2thumb:


I love the sand snake, very cute!


Do you use bioactive enclosures for your snakes Thrasops? If so, what mix ratio do you use?


----------



## Thrasops

Roseanna said:


> So refreshing to see something other than royals posted on here! Even better to see such unique and hardly kept species :2thumb:
> 
> 
> I love the sand snake, very cute!
> 
> 
> Do you use bioactive enclosures for your snakes Thrasops? If so, what mix ratio do you use?


Thanks! No I don't use bioactive for all snakes (in fact I only use bioactive for some of my small lizards and tree frogs, and a couple of small arboreal tropical snakes).

I do use naturalistic substrates in all my enclosures though - generally various mixes of sand, soil, grit, coir and fine orchid bark, with leaf litter (so I suppose they are all "bioactive" to a certain extent). I spot clean daily or every two days or whenever I see mess though but I don't bother with the 'bioactive' component (custodians, springtails etc) in most.


----------



## arwen_7

Thrasops said:


> Schokari sand snakes (_Psammophis schokari_) have always been one of my most photogenic snakes and I have shared many photos of my group over the years, I am not sure any have beaten this inquisitive fellow though.
> 
> image


Oh this little dude is fantastic looking! :gasp: What a stunning little snake.


----------



## Thrasops

Western Black tree snake (_Thrasops occidentalis_) after enjoying a good misting. These guys love to drink a LOT. My two will now sometimes drink directly from the nozzle of the mister which is great as it lets me ensure they remain well hydrated - which is really important for this species.


----------



## Thrasops

Juvenile Ladder snake (_Zamenis scalaris_) still showing the back cross-bars down the back from which its vernacular name comes. These fade with age.


----------



## New_bee

Hi,

I cannot see any picture on the first page and I tried several browsers meanwhile. In some browsers I see an icon "broken link".

Have they been removed from the source?


----------



## Thrasops

New_bee said:


> Hi,
> 
> I cannot see any picture on the first page and I tried several browsers meanwhile. In some browsers I see an icon "broken link".
> 
> Have they been removed from the source?


I'm not sure what happens, after a few weeks my photos just disappear from the forum, it is quite annoying as I have made a lot of threads!


----------



## Takydromus

Thrasops said:


> I'm not sure what happens, after a few weeks my photos just disappear from the forum, it is quite annoying as I have made a lot of threads!


When I quote your post and follow the link it says the URL expired. Where are you hosting the photos?


----------



## Thrasops

Takydromus said:


> When I quote your post and follow the link it says the URL expired. Where are you hosting the photos?


Facebook. I just open the pic in a new tab and copy the link from there.


----------



## MSID

Thought a picture of my Persian rat snake (_Zamenis persicus_) would fit in with the others on here.


----------



## New_bee

Thrasops said:


> I'm not sure what happens, after a few weeks my photos just disappear from the forum, it is quite annoying as I have made a lot of threads!


Ah, what a pity! 

Thanks for replying, at least I know it‘s not up to me.


----------



## Thrasops

MSID said:


> Thought a picture of my Persian rat snake (_Zamenis persicus_) would fit in with the others on here.
> image
> 
> image


Very nice! A species (and genus) I rate a lot!


----------



## Alfonzo

Thrasops said:


> Ha! Long time no see! How are things?
> 
> 
> I've not got much experience with the AHS heaters, I tested a couple out a few years back and decided they weren't for me. Falsies don't like ambient temperatures to be TOO high though, so personally I would actually pick multiple low wattage halogens for a setup like that (a couple of 50W over one side should do it to create a large but localised basking area) with a LOW wattage (35w) ceramic on stat to ensure night temperatures don't drop below required limits in winter. I've found room temperatures to be fine for this species at night.
> 
> 
> The Arcadia fluorescents are best in market IMO, so they'd be perfect for the viv. If you wanted to make it decently bright you could go for LEDs or even a ceiling light (Andrew Grimm showed me these cheaply available on Amazon that are ideal for lighting larger vivs).


I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier, it was rude. I didn't do it immediately and then it just slipped my mind.

Anyway... The vivariums my post related to only arrived in March due to some difficulties the manufacturer was experiencing. 

That and my own cashflow have put the brakes on this project a bit but I am happy to say now, thank you for your advice and I have a bunch of stuff on the way.

Each set up will have a basking spot comprising 2 x 50w halogens and a ProT5 ShadeDweller. There will be an additional 50w ceramic for the nighttime drop / keeping temps reasonable in deepest darkest winter.

Can't wait to have them set up and give the falsies a bit more room!


----------



## ian14

New_bee said:


> Hi,
> 
> I cannot see any picture on the first page and I tried several browsers meanwhile. In some browsers I see an icon "broken link".
> 
> Have they been removed from the source?





Thrasops said:


> I'm not sure what happens, after a few weeks my photos just disappear from the forum, it is quite annoying as I have made a lot of threads!





Takydromus said:


> When I quote your post and follow the link it says the URL expired. Where are you hosting the photos?


Hmm. Strange.


----------



## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> Hmm. Strange.


I believe it is because I am sharing the images from Facebook, they only stay on this forum for two weeks and then disappear. A few of my older photos from Photobucket that I posted a decade ago seem to still be showing, but I no longer use Photobucket because I find the platform awfully laggy and slow to load.

Most of my snake pics can be found on Instagram under the username 'thrasops' for those that would like to see them. That is where I usually share stuff these days (less awkward debate, more looking at pics of cool snakes).


----------



## ian14

Thrasops said:


> I believe it is because I am sharing the images from Facebook, they only stay on this forum for two weeks and then disappear. A few of my older photos from Photobucket that I posted a decade ago seem to still be showing, but I no longer use Photobucket because I find the platform awfully laggy and slow to load.
> 
> Most of my snake pics can be found on Instagram under the username 'thrasops' for those that would like to see them. That is where I usually share stuff these days (less awkward debate, more looking at pics of cool snakes).


That really makes no sense. It's very easy to post images directly onto RFUK. No need to share from elsewhere 
Unless you are a paying member of Photobucket, you cannot use it. Nothing to do with being "laggy". If you dont pay you cannot use it.


----------



## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> That really makes no sense. It's very easy to post images directly onto RFUK. No need to share from elsewhere
> Unless you are a paying member of Photobucket, you cannot use it. Nothing to do with being "laggy". If you dont pay you cannot use it.


Well yes, I know... you know I have been posting pictures on here for years, and they all seem to disappear.

Here is a random photo posted from my Facebook, let's see how long it remains visible. I open it in a new tab and copy the link. Click the yellow icon at the top of the post bar on RFUK and paste the link in there:










This is the way I have always done it.

It occurs to me it is also possible to upload pics to albums on RFUK, I have uploaded the same picture to a new album on my profile entitled 'Snakes' (I have not uploaded pics to an RFUK album for many years, around a decade I think).

I will try the same way here:










Let's see if that one stays. I am actually quite curious now. (Photo of one of my King rat snakes, _Elaphe carinata_)

Photobucket used to be free and it was always free when I used it. I have not logged into it for years and years and having done so just now it tells me I am above the 250 image free tier limit and that I have to pay unless I remove photos. I am not going to do that but here is a link to an image from there to see if it works. It certainly is a lot less laggy then it was on my older computer. (Photo of a juvenile Japanese rat snake, _Elaphe climacophora_).










I will monitor this comment and see how long it takes any of the images to disappear, if they do at all.


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## Thrasops

Thrasops said:


> *HALOGEN HEATING/ LIGHTING*


Let's go back to halogen bulbs and providing near infra-red (IR-A) heat to our reptiles; there is even more to add to the discussion. This type of heat actually is healthier for the cells and body and has been used in medicine to assist tissue healing.

This is because IR-A encourages the mitochondria within cells to produce more ATP (adenosine triphosphate), which is used in cell metabolism, reduces oxidative stress and improves inflammation. As cells get older and decay, ATP production within them reduces over time, but is boosted by exposure to IR-A. In humans this _may_ significantly reduce vision decline and even possibly help reduce degenerative diseases like Alzheimer's:

*Gkotsi, Despoina, et al. "Recharging mitochondrial batteries in old eyes. Near infra-red increases ATP." Experimental eye research 122 (2014): 50-53.*

Irradiation has also been shown to stimulate NGF-induced neurite elongation on a laminin-collagen coated substrate and protects PC12 cells against oxidative stress in cell cultures:

*Giuliani, Alessandro, et al. "Low infra red laser light irradiation on cultured neural cells: effects on mitochondria and cell viability after oxidative stress." BMC complementary and alternative medicine 9.1 (2009): 8.*

Photobiomodulation using IR-A is already used for the treatment and accelerated healing of wounds, including recovery of heart muscles and optic nerves, and even in mice has resulted in up-lifting of genes important to the promotion of wound healing. It also has a therapeutic effect (Roman Muryn has likened this to that warm feeling you get when exposing your hands to the heat radiating off glowing coals) and the reason for this is that there is a mechanism in the body wherein near infra-red radiation promotes an up-regulation of gene expression in pathways involved in mitochondrial energy production and antioxidant cellular protection.

It also can help prevent brain diseases:

*Hamblin, Michael R. "Shining light on the head: photobiomodulation for brain disorders." BBA clinical 6 (2016): 113-124.*

This photobiomodulation can also have other effects on healing such as cellular proliferation, collagen synthesis and the release of growth factors from cells.


*Eells, Janis T., et al. "Mitochondrial signal transduction in accelerated wound and retinal healing by near-infrared light therapy." Mitochondrion 4.5-6 (2004): 559-567.*

The processes that concern this are not as well understood as those governing reactions to UV on the skin. We know that it involves retrograde mitochondrial signalling:

*Schroeder, Peter, et al. "Cellular response to infrared radiation involves retrograde mitochondrial signaling." Free Radical Biology and Medicine 43.1 (2007): 128-135.*


Now, here is the thing; most of the studies we have, including the ones I have cited above, concern human cells or at least mammalian cells. There are as far as I am aware no studies on these effects on reptile cells. Is that important? Not really, actually. The cell organelles don't really differ much between them, mitochondria for example are the same - however there is an important difference; mammalian cells tend to have _more_ mitochondria with a greater membrane surface area, meaning their cells are capable of producing far more energy with greater tissue cytochrome oxidase activity (which is exactly what we would expect from an endothermic animal and part of the reason reptiles 'tire out' so quickly).

*Hulbert, A. J., and PAUL LEWIS Else. "Evolution of mammalian endothermic metabolism: mitochondrial activity and cell composition." American Journal of Physiology-Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative Physiology 256.1 (1989): R63-R69.*

HOWEVER we do know that in snakes with pit organs (pythons, boas vipers), it is likely that detection of infrared is the main function of these organs and not predation as previously assumed. We know this for two reasons; first, the range of thermal perception is very short in these snakes, no more than 0.005m in pit vipers. Second, experiments have shown pit vipers are perfectly capable of hitting prey even with their heat pits impeded, and indeed many take primarily ectothermic prey such as frogs and lizards. There have been studies that show their heat pits are used for thermoregulation on the other hand, particularly in rattlesnakes:

*Jones BS, Lynn WF, Stone MO (2001) Thermal modeling of snake infrared reception: evidence for limited detection range. J Theor Biol 209:201–211*

*Seebacher, Frank, and Craig E. Franklin. "Physiological mechanisms of thermoregulation in reptiles: a review." Journal of Comparative Physiology B 175.8 (2005): 533-541.*

What does this mean for us? That depends. I have already mentioned that IR-A forms a much larger component of sunlight than the far infra-red (IR-C) produced by the more common ceramic heat emitters and heat mats (Both these pieces of equipment have their uses of course, but should not be the 'main' source of heating for best results). Since we know IR-A produces more energy it follows that reptiles should display more activity and energy beneath it, and preliminary studies SEEM to indicate this is the case, there is of course much work still to be done. Hopefully this has at least given people pause to think.



For a more general overview of reptile heating and the benefits/ shortcomings of some of the different types of heaters we use, I would recommend this well put together Youtube video by a very thoughtful young man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG7bA3sUIJ8


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## Malc

Thrasops said:


> HOWEVER we do know that in snakes with pit organs (pythons, boas vipers), it is likely that detection of infrared is the main function of these organs and not predation as previously assumed. We know this for two reasons; first, the range of thermal perception is very short in these snakes, no more than 0.005m in pit vipers. Second, experiments have shown pit vipers are perfectly capable of hitting prey even with their heat pits impeded, and indeed many take primarily ectothermic prey such as frogs and lizards. There have been studies that show their heat pits are used for thermoregulation on the other hand, particularly in rattlesnakes:


Well that blows the hairdryer trick for Royals out of the water....personally I would question the 5mm range....and in my own experience having a hotspot on the prey (ie heating the food so that the nose/head is hotter than the body) ensures a perfect take. They certainly track a warm roden from a distance greater than 5mm.


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## johndavidwoods

Malc said:


> Well that blows the hairdryer trick for Royals out of the water....personally I would question the 5mm range....and in my own experience having a hotspot on the prey (ie heating the food so that the nose/head is hotter than the body) ensures a perfect take. They certainly track a warm roden from a distance greater than 5mm.


It could just be that the heating intensifies the smell. I'm just speculating, but certainly back in the day when I was holding rats under hairdryers, that was a very noticeable consequence, and you could see a lot of activity in the vivs in response even if the heated animal wasn't yet anywhere near the snakes.


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## Thrasops

Malc said:


> Well that blows the hairdryer trick for Royals out of the water....personally I would question the 5mm range....and in my own experience having a hotspot on the prey (ie heating the food so that the nose/head is hotter than the body) ensures a perfect take. They certainly track a warm roden from a distance greater than 5mm.


That range was quoted for pit vipers, I could not find a study showing the range of Royal python heat pits however there is a well known one where their pits were covered and they were able to strike accurately at prey nonetheless. Scaleless pythons, which seem to lack heat pits, also must eat (although as far as I know most don't survive long, so that may be a factor).

I too have always used the 'warm rodent' trick and it does seem to work, whether this is really because of the heat, or perhaps because it is often tried at night, or increases the smell, I am not sure.

It is an interesting subversion of expectations though, isn't it?


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## Malc

That was one of my first thoughts when the scaless royals were produced. I mean without the "pits" would their heat sensors be compromised in some way? Afterall, nature has spent millions of years in evolution to give these snakes these devices, and I have no doubt the shaping of the pits or why they are sectioned off the way they are plays an important part in how they work... and along comes man and undoes millions of years of development overnight !!

@John.... yes I too notice increased activity when using a hairdryer, and as you say the fact that warm scent particles are being wafted in the air by the dryer will insight the feeding response. One thing I have noticed, Royals do tune into the hot spot. The other night whilst warming up the rodents the dryer had moved and the back end of one rat was warmer than the head.... yes the snakes initial strike and grab was the rear end, where as the one with a hot head took the mouse right on the head.

In terms of the range of sensitivity, could it be that vipers typically have one pit either side of their mouth (or under eye) and thus are not reliant on pits than pythons which tend to have arrays of multiple pits. Also these pits are more pronounced in some pythons more than others such as GTP which normally hunt at dusk in low light conditions.... most nature documentaries tend to give the impression that both vipers and pythons use these pits as a means of thermal tracking, but in the case of vipers that would now apprear not to be true given the range these organs have.


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## benjeeman

Since my Royal has been on hunger strike and is now finally eating again I've taken to braining my rats and then heating the heads thoroughly under kettle steam. 
You should see her go for them now - like a bullet from a gun! 
I'm assuming the added smell attracts them and maybe they get so close to the heated head that it also makes them more keen to strike. 
Either way, works for me :2thumb:


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## Thrasops

OK I have done a little more digging. More discussion on the uses of viperid pit organs:

*Krochmal, Aaron R., George S. Bakken, and Travis J. LaDuc. "Heat in evolution's kitchen: evolutionary perspectives on the functions and origin of the facial pit of pitvipers (Viperidae: Crotalinae)." Journal of Experimental Biology 207.24 (2004): 4231-4238.*

So in experiments, twelve different species of pit vipers were able to quickly and accurately find cool hiding spots in warm mazes whereas true vipers (which don't have the heat pits) were not, proving they do use their heat pits for thermoregulation.

It is postulated that the heat organs may serve as general purpose organs useful for both prey location and in thermoregulation.

Interestingly, a couple of studies imply that at least some pit viper species select ambush sites based on background radiation, in some thermal contrast may have been preferable (making warm blooded prey easier to 'see' against a cool background) but in others this does not seem to be the case so it is still up in the air as to how much they really use their heat pits for prey detection:

*Schraft, Hannes A., George S. Bakken, and Rulon W. Clark. "Infrared-sensing snakes select ambush orientation based on thermal backgrounds." Scientific reports 9.1 (2019): 1-6.

Shine, Richard, et al. "Thermal correlates of foraging-site selection by Chinese pit-vipers (Gloydius shedaoensis, Viperidae)." Journal of thermal Biology 27.5 (2002): 405-412.*

In one study, the idea of prey targeting by infra-red pits was challenged by the fact that a blind rattlesnake was not able to target prey effectively.

*Kardong, Kenneth V., and Stephen P. Mackessy. "The strike behavior of a congenitally blind rattlesnake." Journal of Herpetology 25.2 (1991): 208-211.*

The same was found in a similar study where pythons vision was reduced and accuracy was greatly impaired. 

*Grace, Michael S., et al. "Prey targeting by the infrared-imaging snake Python molurus: effects of experimental and congenital visual deprivation." Behavioural brain research 119.1 (2001): 23-31.*

In Royal Pythons, the detection range seems to be much greater than that given for the pit vipers; here it was found they seem to be able to perceive infra-red signatures as much as 30cm away. Probably both infrared and visual information are normally involved in prey targeting for pythons.

*Ebert, J., S. Müller, and G. Westhoff. "Behavioural examination of the infrared sensitivity of ball pythons." Journal of Zoology 272.3 (2007): 340-347.
*


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## New_bee

Thrasops said:


> ...Most of my snake pics can be found on Instagram under the username 'thrasops' for those that would like to see them. That is where I usually share stuff these days (less awkward debate, more looking at pics of cool snakes).


OK, thanks to you I have now ‚Insta‘ (as my kids would say) :2thumb:


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## Thrasops

OK trying a new way of attaching photos suggested by ian14 on another thread.

Not sure I like this way as the images come out as attachments at the end of the post so I cannot type anything in between each image, but I am going to see whether they stick around on the forum any longer than the way I usually do it.

Given all my photos over the years have disappeared, in the coming weeks I may try re-uploading some images from the last few years showing off my collection, and also some step by step guides on building fake rock backgrounds and so on that have gone from older threads.

For now, here are two of my Aesculapian snakes (_Zamenis longissimus_). These are yearlings; top one is normal coloration, bottom one is melanistic form.

Aesculapian snakes are a very hardy species of rat snake from central Europe (France, Northern Spain, Germany, Italy, Bosnia, Poland, Hungary etc.) and have also been introduced to at least two localities in the UK where they have been present for around thirty years.

They get their name from Asklepios/ Aesculapius the Greek/ Roman god of healing. In fact this is the snake on the staff of Asklepios/ Aesculapius, which has been the symbol of the medical profession since Ancient times.

(Interestingly Asklepios's descendent was Hippocrates who also has famous symbology to the medical profession - mainly remembered nowadays via the Hippocratic Oath for example).

The Rod of Asklepios (one snake) is often confused with the Caduceus (a staff with two snakes and wings that denoted Hermes, that has over time mistakenly become amalgamated with the Rod of Asklepios).

Snakes became associated with Asklepios when he was tending to the son of the king of Crete and killed a snake that had slid under the door. As he watched, another snake followed it and placed a leaf on the first snake, bringing it back to life. Asklepios put the same leaf on the sick child, and it cured him.

In captivity, these snakes do absolutely brilliantly; what they lack in bright colours they make up for by being good display animals, stately and often perched high up in the enclosure amongst the branches.

Many babies refuse food after hatching and need to be brumated before they start feeding; once they emerge on the other side of brumation they usually are rearing to go at the food and have an appetite like a runaway locomotive. From this point on they start putting on length quickly but are still more slow-growing than other rat snakes in my experience.


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## ViperLover

Great thread!


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## loxocemus

it has a very interesting head shape : victory:

rgds
ed



MSID said:


> Thought a picture of my Persian rat snake (_Zamenis persicus_) would fit in with the others on here.
> image
> 
> image


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## Thrasops

So it has been just over five years since this little rascal landed in my lap (literally). Some on here may remember my thread where I talked about how an import of Egyptian racers turned into a bag full of many snakes including a little egg eater that gave me a scare by saw-scaling from beneath the newspaper.

Here she is from earlier on having reached around 70cm.

At the time I identified her as a _Dasypeltis scabra _(Rhombic egg eater) but the following year the Egyptian specimens were all reclassified as a new species, _D. bazi _(Egyptian egg eater).

I started her off having to feed her gecko eggs and the odd finch and later pigeon eggs. She soon progressed onto button quail and quail eggs and eats several per sitting, every couple of months.

Very cool little snake, sadly the Egyptian species are extremely rare in captivity (for a long time I had the only specimen as far as I know, I have come across a couple of other keepers that have subsequently received some).


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## Thrasops

Interesting set of photos came up in my Facebook Memories today. These were all taken by Steve Hug Kai (Steve's Farm and Backyard Friends) back in 2016 and I shared them.

Kukri snakes (_Oligodon spp_) are a genus of Asian snakes so named because of the enlarged, curved teeth they possess (named after the Nepalese Kukri blade).

They are generally fairly rare in captivity, usually only present as random filler from Indonesian imports, although _O. purpurascens_ now has a decent foothold in the hobby as quality, brightly coloured CB.

Many of these snakes are egg eaters, although unlike the African Egg Eaters, these guys use do not swallow eggs whole but use their large modified teeth to slit open the leathery eggshell of reptile eggs, which present no obstacle to these teeth. They will take bird's eggs as the below photo shows, although usually these have to be cracked for them first.

More disturbingly, these snakes demonstrate the same feeding strategy with toads. The toad in this case is too large to subdue and swallow so the snake simply slits the side of its belly open, then drags out and slurps down its internal organs. _Not_ pretty.


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## New_bee

Thrasops said:


> ...Given all my photos over the years have disappeared, in the coming weeks I may try re-uploading some images from the last few years showing off my collection, and also some step by step guides on building fake rock backgrounds and so on that have gone from older threads.


Very appreciated! :notworthy:


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## Thrasops

So it is about time I started re-uploading some photos I have shared on here in previous years, as most have disappeared over time. We will see if uploading as attachments will keep them showing.

I will start off with some of my earliest 'fake rock background' builds. I think I first uploaded these on here in a mammoth thread around 2012.

My thinking here was that having a fake background that allowed my animals to traverse that 'third dimension' would open up some more usable space for them. It also would let them regulate how close they get to the lights and the heaters. The concept was based on the 'Retes Stack' coined by Frank Retes, but just a little more aesthetically pleasing. Over time I have begun building hiding spots into the walls as well.

The project starts as a rough design sculpted out of chunks of Kingspan, although extruded polystyrene will do as well (just don't point a heater at the latter!). Cocktail sticks and all purpose adhesive are used to hold it together and to the sides and back of the vivs.

Once the glue is dry, the next step is to coat the entire thing in grout. I used 10-12 layers of thinned grout, although if you have access to it, cement is far tougher and more hard-wearing; I found grout crumbles over time no matter how many coats you put on.

The last couple of layers of grout had paint added.

The substrate I use is invariably a mix of play sand and potting soil, you can add all kinds of other things to that mix - peat, fine grit, fine orchid bark, coco coir, gravel and so on.

More recently I also like to add a layer of either leaf litter or desiccated pine needles, which provide even more scope to hide and bask cryptically.


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## Thrasops

Over the years my technique has been refined somewhat and I have found better ways of doing things, both for toughness of the wall and aesthetically.

One of the things I found before long is that grout will crack and peel off. To counter this, I developed a technique where I paint PVA glue all over the fake rock, then apply toilet tissue (un-patterned) and daub a mix of water and PVA onto that.

When left to dry, the glue will shrink and the toilet paper will form a rock solid layer that keeps the grout together, adds an additional layer of protection and also wrinkles up so creates some really nice additional texture that will catch paint. I didn't actually get pics of this on this built but there will be some for the next one.

I began painting using spray cans (Montana Gold graffiti paint is a favourite as it is waterproof and resistant to extremes of temperature - it does smell an awful lot so needs to be sprayed outside and then the viv must be left in a well ventilated area for a week or two for the smell to dissipate.). More recently I get good results with an airbrush.

The key to painting nice-looking fake rocks is to vary the colours you use. If you are after 'grey' rocks, don't just paint them grey; use browns, greens and even oranges in there. Only the top layer needs to actually be 'grey' to get a grey-looking rock; the hints of colour beneath this will look much more natural.

In this case I began with a dark brown undercoat, then I sprayed from above using a dark green, applying a light dusting to the structure. I did the same thing but from below using orange, spraying from one direction at a distance so the colour catches one face of the rock.

Finally, a light grey was used as a fine dusting from perpendicular to the build, followed by a final dry brush using a sand colour. This dry brush brings the whole thing alive; it catches paint on all the raised little details and gives the whole thing a much more three-dimensional apearance.


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## Zincubus

^^^ Fabulous !! ^^^


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Thrasops

Another start-to-end set of photos showing how I built another such fake rock background in a small viv. This was another of my early attempts. In the past I raised one of my Aesculapian snakes in it, it is now home to a Dione's rat snake.

Once again the main shape of the fake rock was carved out of Kingspan. In this case I tried applying a layer of filler over it as well. It was then covered with several layers of grout, and to try and get a more aesthetic look I added some black and brown paint to the last two layers of grout and then 'over-brushed' some uncoloured grout at the end.

When I went back to repair and reinforce the whole thing a few years ago, I added a few perches and used the same toilet tissue and PVA glue trick that I mentioned above (it is important that waterproof, outdoor PVA is used). After a couple of layers of that were applied over the grout, it was much tougher and had a lot more texture so I was able to paint it to look reasonably nice.

This enclosure is heated by a small 5W heat pad attached to a ceramic tile and covered with PVA and a sand/ soil mix to make a primitive 'hot rock.' This is then buried in the substrate with a piece of wood on top. The snake can sit on top of it, or use the T8 fluorescent to bask under - not ideal, I prefer overhead heaters, but for baby snakes in a small viv it works OK.


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## Thrasops

And the third viv. This one originally housed some CB _Psammophis schokari _(Schokari sand snakes) I had bred, but those eventually moved onto something much longer and more grandiose to befit their activity, and I now use it to house young Dione's rat snakes that I hatch each year.

Of note, you can see in one of the pictures that after I had applied filler I let a small snake into the enclosure to make sure there wasn't anywhere they could squeeze into that would later be inaccessible to me. Much easier to rip a build apart at this stage to 'free' a trapped snake than when it is all finished and set up.

You can also see the effect of staining the penultimate layer of grout then applying unstained grout on top of it, you get a nice naturalistic looking effect, better than just the plain grout.

I do not have any photos of this build being refurbished, strengthened and repainted. But here are some photos of the more recent use it has got raising my baby Dione's each year.


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## Thrasops

And another start-to-finish fake rock build (apologies to keep spamming vivs, there are a LOT of old photos that I need to re-upload on here so this is going to take a few weeks). I hope uploading them as attachments like this will keep them on the forum!

This one I started out with a plan to have two nice pieces of dry grape vine held in between the parts of the fake rock, so I had to proceed a bit more slowly and strengthen the various chunks of Kingspan bit by bit as I built.

I wish I had more in-process shots of the spray painting but I only have a before and after. The base coat I use for a lot of my grey rocks is called 'Anthracite' - it's an interesting colour; normally it looks like a very very dark grey, but if you spray it over white it can give an almost greenish effect.

I then spray different colours from different directions to get undertones and overtones, before a more general dusting of light grey followed by some dry-brushing to bring out the texture.

I also started spraying the ceiling and walls of the viv. At first I tried a light blue colour but this came out FAR too bright and looked too garish, like the sky over a tropical beach. I found a light grey actually looks better once lit.


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## Thrasops

And another.

This viv has some good examples of things I wish I had done differently, and things I like.

If I had to build this one again, I would have taken more care to make sure the level of the rock perches on each side were at different heights, so the inhabitants can bask at different distances from the light if they want to.

On the other hand, the nice big crevice by the vent is good and provides a shadowy hideaway that I copied in all of my subsequent fake rock builds.You have to cut away the area over the vents of course, so makes sense to also use them as a darker hiding spot.

You can also see more clearly the sequence of painting, starting with a dark grey base coat then with orange sprayed upwards, green from above, then mid grey and the final dry brush.


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## Thrasops

Yet another start to finish fake rock build.

Note that using these materials becomes REALLY messy. You can use a hot wire cutter and expanded polystyrene but I find it harder to get the same quality of texture and the expanded polystyrene is much less durable than Kingspan (and not heat resistant!).

This viv went through several design changes which is why you can see different materials used here - Kingspan, extruded polystyrene and expanding spray foam to fill in some gaps. But It ended up as probably my favourite of my early fake rock builds. As you can see here, I used it to raise one of my baby Horseshoe whip snakes (_Hemorrhois hippocrepis_) - although nowadays I prefer exo terras for baby whip snakes so I can use more overhead heat which they seem to prefer; I use the smaller fake rock builds for young rat snakes.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

These are wonderful Francis, I remember when you first started making fake rock backgrounds and posted on the forum. I also remember the presentation you gave at the 1st AHH Conference - I was really impressed.


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## Thrasops

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> These are wonderful Francis, I remember when you first started making fake rock backgrounds and posted on the forum. I also remember the presentation you gave at the 1st AHH Conference - I was really impressed.


I cannot take any credit for the idea, there used to be a user called Pendragon on here that used to show some absolutely amazing fake rock builds. I remember he had a huge one for his Bearded dragon, plus some for a Hognosed snake and a Garter snake. I really learned a lot from his threads.

These days I slowed down making fake rock backgrounds, they are extremely messy to build and I am pretty sure I got a chest infection at least twice from breathing in the small pieces of Kingspan/ Polystyrene - so definitely do the carving wearing a particle mask! I tend to build them more inside exo terras as, being insulators, they turn small vivs into heat traps.

(This is why you don't see any heaters in those small vivs - the fluorescents alone produce enough heat to warm the whole viv, with a little localised supplementation from the 5w heat mats). But I prefer using halogen lights now to provide heating and this can be harder inside these smaller 24" vivs.

Still, many more to put up here, I think my more recent designs are even nicer!


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## Thrasops

The next style of fake rock build is by far the most troublesome to construct and paint, but also probably the best and most useful for the inhabitants.

I have made a couple like this, but probably will not again. They are based on some sort of sedimentary rock formation, the idea being that there will be ways for the snake/ lizard to travel across the rock at several levels, with hides and retreats featured in the build itself as well as lots of perches at different heights and shady places to sit.

This one was built out of extruded polystyrene, which does not crumble and stays sturdy. It takes forever to carve out each layer, rough the edges and pile it on top of the layer beneath (lots of cocktail sticks required) but the effect is admittedly pretty good.

Grouting took an absolute age and was a nightmare. Twelve layers, each painstakingly painted into all those cracks and layers and left to dry for 12-24 hours... this is not something that will be built in a day!

But in the pictures you can see how bright, well exposed basking spots and shaded, shadowy areas are created easily. I have a 36" version like this that houses my pair of Leopard geckos, and a 48" version that holds one of my pairs of _Platyceps rogersi_.


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## John1975

Superb finish on those. Nothing I like less than totally phoney wood or rock.cant stand rock with no regard for strata or lots of pieces of uniform size or branches at angles they just wouldn’t grow at. Each to his own I know it would just bug me. I’m getting ready to build big L shaped viv in my shed for my diamond group. It won’t be as in involved as yours would be Mostly pressed cork on the walls but I’d love weatherEd red sandstone looking shelves. I may even include some hard as nails plants in the cool end. Think I’m going to carve thermolite blocks then cement them together with flexible tile adhesive/grout. How do you get the light dark effects? Do you spray paint lighter and lighter parts on or is it a sistine chapel job with a brush?


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## John1975

Sorry mate just read thread see that you spray. 👍


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## Thrasops

Thrasops said:


> Interesting set of photos came up in my Facebook Memories today. These were all taken by Steve Hug Kai (Steve's Farm and Backyard Friends) back in 2016 and I shared them.
> 
> Kukri snakes (_Oligodon spp_) are a genus of Asian snakes so named because of the enlarged, curved teeth they possess (named after the Nepalese Kukri blade).
> 
> They are generally fairly rare in captivity, usually only present as random filler from Indonesian imports, although _O. purpurascens_ now has a decent foothold in the hobby as quality, brightly coloured CB.
> 
> Many of these snakes are egg eaters, although unlike the African Egg Eaters, these guys use do not swallow eggs whole but use their large modified teeth to slit open the leathery eggshell of reptile eggs, which present no obstacle to these teeth. They will take bird's eggs as the below photo shows, although usually these have to be cracked for them first.
> 
> More disturbingly, these snakes demonstrate the same feeding strategy with toads. The toad in this case is too large to subdue and swallow so the snake simply slits the side of its belly open, then drags out and slurps down its internal organs. _Not_ pretty.



Oddly enough after sharing this a few days ago, I have noticed a photo by James Holden just shared on Herping the Globe of similar behaviour, _Oligodon ocellatus_ eviscerating a Black-spined toad (_Duttaphrynus melanostictus_).


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## ian14

Francis, out of interest, where do you advertise the vast number of hatchlings you say you produce?
I ask because I have never seen a single advert for any animals bred by you and a quick search shows that since you joined in 2008, there have been no adverts at all for any offspring on this site from you.
All seems very odd when you have stated you freeze Japanese rat snake eggs as you breed so many, yet there are no adverts, ever, on here from you offering these, or indeed any other species.
This is the only specialist reptile site in the uk, so I am more than a little confused.


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## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> Francis, out of interest, where do you advertise the vast number of hatchlings you say you produce?
> I ask because I have never seen a single advert for any animals bred by you and a quick search shows that since you joined in 2008, there have been no adverts at all for any offspring on this site from you.
> All seems very odd when you have stated you freeze Japanese rat snake eggs as you breed so many, yet there are no adverts, ever, on here from you offering these, or indeed any other species.
> This is the only specialist reptile site in the uk, so I am more than a little confused.


Hello Ian. What an odd and out-of-the-blue statement. Has Mr Rudge been in your ear perhaps? I am certainly confused why you would take a sudden interest in what I breed, are you after any particular species I keep, perhaps? Maybe Japanese rat snakes? :whistling2:

(I have not said I freeze eggs, that would be a massive waste, you must be confusing me with somebody else. I have stated I feed some of them to other snakes, I have some nice videos of that if you would like to see?)

I've never stated I produce 'a vast number of hatchlings' - nor do I. In fact I have always taken great pains to point out I am a keeper, not a breeder. But I do produce a few clutches a year (and the fact I have shared many photos of my babies on here in the past that I know you must have seen as you seem to follow and comment on my threads regularly - makes me confused why you would think otherwise and what your motive is for asking). 

I prefer not to advertise online, although I did a couple of times on CB Forum. Most of my babies either get given to people I know will offer them decent homes, traded for other snakes I want and the rest are usually sold to shops. I used to have some taken to various shows by friends but I have never really been big on the show scene.

However, whilst you may never have seen ME offering my snakes I assure you that you _have_ seen many snakes I have bred offered by others - some of them were founder stock of the UK population (such as _Boiga cyanea_ and _Philodryas baroni_). In fact odds are that if you have kept either of those species that were not imported directly from Europe, they will have been descended from animals I bred over the past two decades.

The other reason is simply that for a lot of animals I keep - such as Horseshoe whip snakes, Coachwhips, _Platyceps_ and so on, I don't really need to advertise them; people message me for them on Facebook and various Facebook groups and the few I breed get snapped up pretty quickly without a need for advertisement. In fact I have a few clutches here of fairly rare snakes that are all already spoken for, I will be posting them on this thread soon. I am quite proud of a couple of successes this year so don't worry I will be spilling the beans soon with pride...

All that aside, what is your purpose for asking?


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## Thrasops

Random aspersions about breeding and where, and where I do not, advertise my babies aside, I came on to post some pics of my Coachwhips because, well, because they are amazing and they take up more of my time than most of my other snakes.

Some will remember back in 2017 I imported six Western Coachwhips (_Masticophis testaceus flagellum)_ from the USA to go with the two I already had. They have rapidly become among my favourite pets.

What has been an education is the difference between experience and reading every book or article on Coachwhips, ever. Some quotes from books I own:

'Coachwhips are generally considered nervous and nasty'

'Coachwhips are nasty and unwilling to eat.'

'This species is particularly lively, alert and nasty.'

'_Masticophis_ is very tense in the terrarium and tries to bite anyone who passes near its cage.'

'Wild-caught Western Coachwhip Snakes can test the patience of even the most-skilled snake keeper! Alert and high-strung, many resist all attempts at handling with lightning-quick strikes.'

'If handled Coachwhips will fight fiercely and bite to defend themselves.'

'Coachwhips can be very difficult to acclimate to captivity. Most will bite readily, repeatedly and painfully.'

My Coachwhips:

'Boop! Hi bich. Where food?'

What an amazingly interactive species of snake they are. I have never been bitten once by any of them. On the contrary, they all have very quickly become exceptionally curious and interactive snakes and an absolute pleasure to own. I suspect the key is in providing them a large thermal gradient with high temperatures in the basking zone, lots of good quality light including plenty of UV, and loads of space to move around and climb. This has certainly stood me in good stead so far, with two successful breedings to date.

Here are a bunch of pictures from the last few years, in no particular order.


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## Thrasops

There are going to be a few posts with lots of photos I'm afraid, bear up with it and enjoy... these snakes are rather photogenic.


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## Thrasops

More Coachwhips.

Depending on space, I am thinking of importing some black specimens next year, if I can find them on offer.


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## Thrasops

And more!


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## Thrasops

Of course having a few pairs of Coachwhips, eventually I did crack them although so far I have had mixed results with a significant proportion of some clutches being infertile - I am still not entirely sure why this is. However I have hatched out a few babies in the last couple of years.

Most are fairly easy to get feeding, although at first they need teasing to strike at pink mice until they latch on. If left alone once they have got a bite, they tend to chew the prey down.

They are rather fast growing snakes too, you can see one of my two year old specimens here.

Only... shhhhh. Don't tell anybody. These don't exist, they weren't advertised on RFUK.... :2thumb:

I'll be sure to come back tomorrow and post more amazing things that don't exist lmfao

The only other person in Europe I am aware of breeding these is Erika Ostinek, who breeds _M. f. cingulum_, although I am sure there will be others, they don't seem terribly difficult to crack, just rarely kept.


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## Thrasops

And finally here's a swift video of one of the Coachwhips performing a miracle and eating one of the confusing Japanese rat snake eggs that didn't exist, because they were not posted on RFUK... :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I actually didn't post this around on my Instagram as I suspected people might get upset but seeing as some get 'confused' when every egg laid in the UK doesn't appear on the august pages of the RFUK Classifieds I thought 'I must remove this confusion forthwith!'

I don't think I made it private so people should be able to see...

https://www.facebook.com/francis.cosquieri/videos/vb.100002015225805/2920614374682375/?type=3


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## Takydromus

Francis what is the process to import animals from the U.S. or even Europe? That sounds like a great way to obtain species that aren't so easily acquired here.


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## arwen_7

Those Coachwhips are lovely looking Thrasops ! Although the shape of the head scales and position of the eyes make them look perpetually angry/annoyed to me  

Are they a commual species like garters or do you only put them together for breeding ?


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## Thrasops

Takydromus said:


> Francis what is the process to import animals from the U.S. or even Europe? That sounds like a great way to obtain species that aren't so easily acquired here.


I was lucky in that I had good friends that were able to help arrange everything and even keep hold of the various specimens for me until they were ready to be shipped. They were purchased on places like Fauna Classified or Facebook (another of those mysterious websites that is not RFUK where people advertise their reptiles - sorry I could not resist getting another dig in!) and then booked in with Dutch Dragon Imports from an American show - I think it was Tinley - to come to Hamm.

Northern Lights Reptile Imports (Ashley Dezan) is another good importer/ exporter. Dan Fryer has also mentioned he can arrange consignments over although that was some years ago.

Once at Hamm they are simply picked up. It is an expensive but relatively pain free process (the more animals you import the more it costs, of course, although prices vary between people). The company arranges everything for you.

I may be arranging another import at the end of the year, or perhaps next year, IF I can find some nice quality black or red Coachwhips for sale over there. I'd also quite like to get my hands of some of the North American milk snake species like Red (_L. t. syspila_) or Eastern (_L. t. triangulum_) and some Patchnose snakes (_Salvadora spp._) but we will see.


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## Thrasops

arwen_7 said:


> Those Coachwhips are lovely looking Thrasops ! Although the shape of the head scales and position of the eyes make them look perpetually angry/annoyed to me
> 
> Are they a commual species like garters or do you only put them together for breeding ?


Thanks! I find them incredibly interactive and alert animals, one of the few snakes I randomly 'let out' into my room now and then (they are big enough that they cannot disappear). Although they look fierce and most of the old literature labels them as such, I find them anything but - they are very curious and interactive. It is my opinion that maybe people have tried to keep them in enclosures that are too small, or tubs - in which case they probably could get stressed and may bite defensively. However in six foot vivs they wander a lot and I have never been bitten by one, despite their huge feeding drive.

In fact all my adults have learned to 'beg' for food very quickly. As soon as I enter the room they come right to the front of their enclosures to see if I have anything for them. They seem relatively intelligent (for a snake!).

I do not believe they are 'communal' in the way that some snakes appear to be, that said they seem to have evolved to fill a similar niche to the European, African and Middle Eastern Montpellier snakes (_Malpolon spp_) which ARE communal... and I have seen several videos now of a male and a female being found together. But I do not think they are as social as _Malpolon_.

I was initially worried about pairing mine up as they do eat rather large snakes in the wild (including large rattlesnakes) however I have been pleasantly surprised, similar-sized Coachwhips under my care have never demonstrated any inclination to even fight over food and do well together.


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## Thrasops

Re-uploading another set of pics today with a few new ones too.

Here are some photos of my pair of Red-Backed rat snakes (_Oocatochus rufodorsatus_), which I believe is the only adult pair currently in the UK (a few people have babies bred by me though so hopefully there will be more soon).

I like to use their specific name as a good example of how to break down a binomial to understand it - in this case _rufodorsatus_ means 'red backed' (_rufo_ = red; _dorsum_ = back).

These snakes are very much the black sheep among rat snakes. For one thing, they don't lay eggs but are livebearers. They also are semi-aquatic and tend to prey on frogs and fish rather than rodents (hence their other common name, 'Frog-Eating rat snake). They usually will take small rodents in captivity though and mine are eager feeders.

Sadly this species is one of those that is almost lost to the hobby. It used to be imported now and then as 'cheap filler' but never seems to have really captured anybody's attention and now is virtually non-existent, which is a shame as they really are not all that difficult to keep.


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## Thrasops

And, before I get accused of 'never advertising offspring on RFUK' here are the babies from the last breeding of this species a few years back. Amazingly I managed to sell/ gift these to people without advertising them on here. Then again, the person I got my animals from didn't advertise them on here either so I guess they just don't exist then... :2thumb:

Fingers crossed for more this year, we will see.


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## Thrasops

*Understanding Binomial Names*

That last comment on breaking down binomial names has reminded me of a short article I wrote a few years back (2018) that some might find interesting on here.

UNDERSTANDING BINOMIAL NAMES

All too often you see people complaining about the use of binomial names, and it is of course fine to stick to vernacular names (everybody knows what a Royal Python or a Corn Snake is, after all - if somebody went around referring to a Royal python as _Python regius_ they'd probably be laughed at, almost as much as the people who refer to them as 'Balls'). However to spend any amount of time working with natural history or delving deeper into the hobby, sooner or later you WILL need to learn some binomial names and this should be encouraged not criticised.

So here is a more educational post about binomial names, why they are useful, and an easy way to learn more of them. Thought I'd share it here too.

It would be easy to ask people to only stick to common names, however when you do this problems will invariably arise.

*Firstly*, context of local names. Suppose you say "Look at this Common Lizard..."

A "Common" Lizard in the UK is hardly common in America, or China, or Morocco. THEIR Common lizards will be entirely different genera. (In fact you do get _Zootoca vivipara_ in China, they are far from common though!) So using names that are based on such characters as being locally common or being a particular colour causes confusion ("Green Lizards" in Europe are not the same Green lizards you find in Tanzania or Indonesia or the Americas!).

*Second*, a lot of species don't have common names. In such cases you are obliged to use binomial names, or you are excluded from learning anything about a huge portion of known reptiles and amphibians.

*Third*, a lot of different species have the same common names depending on where you are. Take "Grass Snakes." In the UK a Grass Snake refers to _Natrix natrix_. In Gibraltar it refers to _Hemorrhois hippocrepis_. In much of Africa it refers to various _Psammophis_. In America it can refer to _Opheodrys_.

*Fourth*, many species have alternate common names. Take Radiated Trinket Snakes. They are also called Radiated Rat Snakes, Copperhead Racers, Copper-Headed Rat Snakes, Trinket Snakes and so on.

*Fifth*, and particularly important for cases of venomous snake bite, exact species identification is required as difference species within a genus, and even the same species over its geographic range can have varying venom. So it is often critical to be sure exactly what species is being treated.

*Sixth*, shops will often make up their own common names where none formerly existed, sometimes to make a species sound "cooler" by associating completely unrelated species with more well known animals; "Indonesian Garter Snakes" for _Xenochrophis vittatus_; "Chinese Corn Snake" or "Chinese Leopard snake" for _Elaphe bimaculata_ and, most mind-bogglingly of all, "Chinese Anaconda" for _Myrrophis chinensis_ (yes I have actually seen that used!).

Obviously these are completely misleading names yet I have seen all three used. Ironically all those species have their own common names already (Striped Keelback, Twin-Spotted Rat Snake and Chinese Water Snake).

*Seventh*, binomial names are designed to be universally used, it is therefore easy to look at foreign pages, field guides or import lists from other countries, and know exactly what they are talking about. I have used them myself across Europe, Africa and some of Asia without speaking the language yet have been able to find out what exactly is around from foreign hobbyists and researchers.

A good example of this was asking about local snakes in Beijing, and being provided with "虎斑颈槽蛇". Obviously unless you know the language that is absolutely meaningless. Luckily my wife speaks Mandarin so was able to tell me this translates as "tiger neck grooved flower snake." A common name in Beijing which means nothing to somebody in the UK. However the accompanying "_Rhabdophis tigrinus_" told me exactly what I was looking for, and whatsmore that it was a dangerously venomous snake.

*Eighth* - for those wanting to learn more about their animal, some of the best information on natural history out there is found in scientific journals and papers, not on random care sheets. To find this requires knowing the binomial name, and indeed even searching for previous binomial names can yield even more information. For example, searching for _Hemorrhois hippocrepis_ can find you a lot of scientific research that might not be generally available on pages listing "Horseshoe Whip Snake." But the generic name _Hemorrhois_ was assigned around 2002. Searching for the previous name, _Coluber hippocrepis_, will yield even more information from before then.

Personally I have always preferred to use binomial names whilst trying to include the most commonly used vernacular name as well. But to suggest steering people away from binomial names altogether seems absolutely wrong, we should be promoting education not advising against it. It takes less time to copy and paste a binomial name into Google than to make a post complaining about them, and you learn something new too!

However some seem to have difficulty learning the long words, so here is some advice on an easier way to view them.

I find the easiest way to learn the names is to understand them. Most scientific names are based on the same root languages. Understand the meanings of the different parts of the name and you not only understand what the name means (and thus often something about the animal) but also you will find yourself able to unravel OTHER names too.

Here are some good examples of what I mean. So starting easy:

"-_saurus_" means lizard.
"-_ophis_" means snake.
"-_suchus_" means crocodile.

You now know part of the binomial name of loads of species, since a HUGE number of snake names in particular end in "-_ophis_" therefore basically translate as "something-snake."

For examples - _Psammophis_ (sand snake, _Psammos_ meaning sand).

Another good word segment to understand is "_don_" which means "tooth." Lots of animals are classified by their tooth shape and many are named after it - for example: _Heterodon_ ("different tooth")
_Xenodon_ ("strange tooth")
_Pseudoxenodon_ ("False strange tooth")
_Macropisthodon_ ("big rear tooth").

Incidentally, "_macro_" is a good one as everybody knows it means "large." For example, "_macrops_" means "large eye."

On the other hand, "_micro_" means "small." You knew that already - easy, huh!

Anything ending in -"_ops_" tends to refer to eyes.
"_Pod_" means "foot."
"_Cephalo_-" means "head."
"_Caudus_/ _cauda_" means "tail."
"_Gastro_" means stomach
"_Theca_" means a sheathe or space.
"_Dryas_" and "_Dendro_" tend to refer to tree-living animals (Dryad being tree sprites in Greek mythology). For example, _Philodryas_ meaning "tree lover," and _dendrophila_ meaning the same thing.
"_Philo_" means "lover of" (as in"_philic_" the opposite of "_phobic_").

Colours are also good ones to know - "_viridis_" is easy, it means green.
"_Rufo_/ _rufus_" means red.
"_Erythro_" also means red.
"_Caerul_-" means blue.
"_Azureus_" also means blue.
"_Cyanea_" again means blue.
"_Flavo_" means yellow
"_Album_\ _Albo_" means white.
"_Leuco_" also means white.
"_*****_" means black and so on.

Colours are often combined with areas on the body so for example "_subviridis_" (from _Pseudocordylus subviridis_) means "green underneath" - "_sub_" meaning "under" of course.

_Rufodorsatus_ (from _Oocatochus rufodorsatus_) means "red on top" - again, "_dorsum_" means the back.

There can be more than one word for each colour (since binomial nomenclature is not actually derived only from Latin but from Greek too and also incorporates other languages). So for example "_smaragdinum_" is also used for green animals but seems to denote "emerald."

"_Xeno_-" means "strange."
"_Hetero_-" means "different."
"_****_-" means "same."
"_Pseudo_-" means "false."

"_Phagous_" or derivatives thereof means "eater of" so "_Ophiophagous_" combines "_Ophis_" that we learned earlier with "_phagous_" to mean "snake eater" and is of course the generic name of the King Cobra.

"-_pod_" means "foot."
"-_pus_" also means "foot."
"_dactylus_/ _dactyl_" means "finger" (hence why so many gecko genera are named with this one, as lots are differentiated by their finger or toe pads. For example _Stenodactylus, Hemidactylus, Mediodactylus, Phyllodactylus, Cyrtodactylus_ to name a few.

"-_Hemi_" means "half."
"-_platy_" means flat.
"-_alti_" means "high"
"-_rostrum_" means "snout"
"-_rhino_" means "nose"
"-_cilium/ ciliaris_" means "eyebrow"
"-_cera/ cerato_" means horn.
"-_tympano_" means "ear"
"_regius_" means "Royal."
"_carinata_" means "rough" (usually denoting very keeled scales)
"_argus_" means "eyed" (from Argus, the Hundred-Eyed Monster of myth) but in this case usually refers to ocelli, a particular type of marking known as eye spots.

Patterning can often be referenced with other words such as:

"_ocellatus_" (again, ocelli or eye spots - generally large spots that tend to be ringed with another colour)
"_reticulatus_" (reticulations)
"_tessellatus_" (tessellations).
"_vittatus/ vittata_" (striped)
"_lineatus_" (striped)
"_fasciatus/ fasciata_" (banded)
"_annulatus/ annularis/ annulata_" (ringed)
"_lineatus_" (lined)
"_pallidus_" (pale)
"_maculatus_" (spotted)

Bear in mind many of the above words can have masculine and feminine forms - "_tessellata_ vs _tessellatus_," "_reticulata_" vs "_reticulatus_" and so on, but the general rule is that the gender of the name is set by the genus, and the species name follows suit. So for example _Rhadinophis_ _prasinum_ or _R. frenatum_ became _Gonyosoma prasina_ and _G. frenata_ when they were reassigned to _Gonyosoma_.

However there can be debate over whether specific names change gender when the genus changes gender; sometimes to do, sometimes they do not - depends on the author really!

Of course may of the names stem from the names of people that discovered them, or particularly well known and respected personages in the field. you will see an awful lot of species named _boulengeri_, _davidi_, _popei_ and so on... these are harder to learn but you soon start noticing the same surnames cropping up all over taxonomy!

Geographical regions are also common, it would be silly out them all but a few examples:

"-_americanus_" is obviously "American."
"-_europaeus_" again is obviously "European"
"-_sinensis_" is "Chinese."
"-_ibericus_" is Iberian
"-_orientale/ orientalis_" is "Eastern"
"-_occidental/ occidentalis_" means "Western."
"-_borealis_" means "Northern"
"_australis_" means "Southern"

Of course one could go on all night about the meanings of different aspects of the names and if you combine a relatively small knowledge of such root words with a knowledge of well known generic names that should get you by!

For example, everybody knows the common generic names like _Elaphe_, _Coluber_, _Lacerta_, _Python_, _Boa_, _Rana_, _Bufo_, _Hyla_ and so on. Once you have a grasp of the more common genera you will be aware of a good portion of the animals, at least those you are likely to see in the hobby.

Interestingly all dinosaur names are binomial names, so "_Tyrannosaurus rex_" is also a binomial... however just saying one word as a dinosaur name (e.g. "_Triceratops_" or "_Iguanodon_" only denotes a genus, not a species. There are actually at least two known valid species of _Triceratops_ - _T. porosus_ and _T. horridus_ - with at least sixteen more possible ones that have insufficient or incomplete remains; and at least two valid species of Iguanodon - _I. bernissartensis_ and _I. galvensis_, with around twenty other possible species that also have insufficient material or may be other species).

Using these root words can help understand and decipher a binomial name, and also learn a little more about the animal itself.

Binomial names should always be italicised (sadly not possible on FB) with the first letter of the generic name capitalised and the species name always lower case.

Example: _Podarcis muralis _(Common Wall Lizard).

In some cases where the binomial name has already been given, you might see the genus name abbreviated to just the first letter, followed by a full stop and the species name. So following on from the above example: _P. muralis_.

You may also see names with three words. These are subspecies. Here a second name in lower case follows the species name. Continuing from the above example:

_Podarcis muralis nigriventris_

Using the little guide above we should now be able to break down that full name. Let's give it a go.
_Pod_ = Foot
_Arcis_ = Arched
_Muralis_ = Wall (mural, come on that's easy).
_Nigri_ = Black
_Ventris_ = Vent / underside.

So the genus name means "arched foot" (look at the shape of a Wall Lizard's back feet and you'll immediately see why.

The species denotes "of walls" telling us it lives on walls.

The subspecies tells us it has black on the underside.

Simple, huh?
There. That's something you know now. 

IN ADDENDUM - there is one other aspect of binomial nomenclature I would add to my original post; the subgenus.

This is a category below a genus but above a species, applied when a group of species within a genus is divided but not considered different enough to warrant their own genus. A good example of this would be _Odatria_ for certain Dwarf Monitor lizards amor _Euprepiosaurus_ for Tree/ Mangrove Monitors.

Subgenera are included in a binomial name in parentheses so would appear like this:

_Varanus (Odatria) acanthurus_ - Spiny Tailed Monitor
_Varanus (Euprepiosaurus) indicus_ - Mangrove Monitor


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## Thrasops

Here are some old pics (from winter 2015) that I thought were pretty cool, I certainly remember the experience fondly - you'll excuse my pyjamas I am sure.

I could see the smaller of my two Coachwhips was pretty restless in her viv (the Coachwhips were being cooled at the time) so I let her out for a wander, as I sometimes do as the mood takes me...

She explored the Christmas tree... and then to my excitement decided to come crawl on me... and then I realised WHY she was so restless... she was about to shed! And so she did - on me!

I was not helping her in any way other than providing gentle pressure between my fingers as she slid through... I've kept snakes for many years but cannot say I've ever purposely been used as a shedding post by one before...

...let alone a species that is purported to be as feisty and aggressive as the Coachwhip which many herpers regard as one of the fiercest North American snakes...

I think that will be enough embarrassing selfies for the time being!


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## Thrasops

One of the things I miss the most living in a flat is access to a large garden with the benefits that entails. In my old house I had the opportunity to keep a few animals outside in large aquaria throughout the spring and summer months, including a few small species of Lacertid lizard, a few temperate rat snakes, and Barred Grass snakes (_Natrix helvetica_ - formerly _N. natrix_).

I have had my current pair of these snakes since around 2007, some on here may remember this thread on them I posted in 2011 and in the Captivebred forum:

https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/713434-grass-snake-natrix-natrix-care.html

(A newer and more updated version of this care sheet exists, I need to turn it to PDF but I understandably don't share it around much or draw attention to it as I don't want to encourage people to go out and catch wild grass snakes to keep, especially now there are more available as quality CB).

I also have a third animal I bred that hatched out rather small and I was not sure would live, so I kept it for myself and it is still with me and as friendly as ever.

Grass snakes are one of those snakes that a lot of people love but you don't hear of many people keeping them, other than stalwarts like Andrew Grimm, John Campbel, Russell Peberdy and a few others.

I thought I would re-upload the photos from that thread and some more updated ones later so people can see how they are doing.

Here are some of the 2011 pictures showing my outdoor enclosures. These were literally nothing more than an old aquarium with a few inches of substrate left outside; after a while plants started growing in them, which gave me the idea to keep some reptiles in them. This worked a treat.


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## Thrasops

When I first came over to this country in the early nineties, Grass snakes were actually the first species of snake I kept and bred here. Perhaps not quite as exciting as Horseshoe whip snakes, Montpellier snakes and Lataste's vipers but still very cool nonetheless as these were still early days for me as a keeper.

Here are some photos from 1993 (I think) of my first clutch.


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## Thrasops

There is a video here of one of my animals in its indoor enclosure (where they were kept when it was too cold outside) from 2013. You can see just how curious and 'friendly' a snake this is. Completely unafraid of me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt8l3JmJBQM


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## Thrasops

More recently I have bred my Grassies a few more times. This is a species I never advertise or sell (despite the whole 'can only sell 3rd generation CB' being a myth), it simply wouldn't be worth the hassle, so I have always just given them away, a few still reside with friends and I know of a couple that are used in educational displays.


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## Thrasops

And finally for those that remember my older posts, here are my main trio now in their current enclosure. Still bringing me a lot of enjoyment 13 years on!


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## Thrasops

I suppose it is about time I bring up Dione's rat snakes (_Elaphe dione_).

I wrote an in-depth article on this species which can be read here:

https://onedrive.live.com/?id=79630B0053A175DE!132&cid=79630B0053A175DE

So I won't necessarily delve too deeply into the specific husbandry of this species. Suffice to say, in my opinion this is probably the single best 'starter' pet species out there, even more so than Corn snakes:

They are small (most males only reach about 60-70cm if that; females can reach around 1.5m but specimens over around a metre are rare. The largest specimen I have seen is one of mine at about 1.5m).

They are exceptionally hardy and tolerant of different environments, so can take husbandry mistakes in their stride that would kill more delicate species.

They are voracious feeders and rarely do babies refuse pinkies as a first meal. They also have a diverse diet so will basically eat whatever they can swallow; rodents, eggs, chicks; you name it.

They come in a huge range of colours (probably one of the most diversely coloured/ polymorphic snake species in the world in terms of how variable they can be across their range). Some localities are just fairly drab grey or brown snakes (although still have a subtle beauty of their own to my eyes). Others can be extremely pretty with reds, yellows and pinks being expressed.

There are quite a few morphs associated with the species so they offer the morph breeder something to play with as well, if you go in for that kind of thing.

They are very easy to breed, and the incubation period is very short; just a couple of weeks for western examples, and about a month for Chinese specimens.

They are diurnal and not shy, so are usually visible; plus they like to climb, explore and bask in the open; so can make nice display animals.

I have actually been keeping this species since the nineties and a few of my specimens are now over twenty-five years old (I estimate one of mine is twenty-seven, but give or take a year or two).

I have various localities; other than Horseshoe whip snakes (_Hemorrhois hippocrepis_) this is probably the species of snake I have been working with longest over a continuous period (rivalled only by Japanese rat snakes and Russian rat snakes).

Here are a few images of my animals. I guess I will start with my North-East China specimens. (Ignore the coloured stuff on the walls of one of the vivs, it is just spray foam from an aborted fake rock build I started but then ripped out).


----------



## Thrasops

Mating in this species does not take much... I had some locked last November, which was a first for me (it was caught in the Youtube video by Reptile n Chill I appeared in). But in Spring once out of hibernation this species are like runaway freight trains, they only want to *mate*.

I have even had them start trying to mate when out on my stairs for a photo shoot...


----------



## Thrasops

Here's another locality I have a fair few of, from Beijing. This is probably my favourite locality in terms of colour, with animals being a nice buff/ yellow with a pink flush on the lips and flanks. Some of them really take the pink to the extreme!


----------



## Thrasops

These are my South Korean pair. They look superficially very similar to North-East China animals but mine are a bit more orange. I find this locality seems to be a bit quicker than the others.

This is a good example of how varying prey can be very useful and enriching, here my female takes a quail egg. Like many other rat snakes, Dione's rat snake has modified spinal bones (vertebral hypapophyses) to enable them to crack eggs. In the case of _E. dione_, they have 39 modified vertebrae (for those interested there are 48-49 in _Pantherophis guttatus_, 45 in _P. obsoletus_, 45 in _E. anomala_, _49 in E. climacophora_ and 55 in _E. taeniurus_. The species with the most enlarged vertebral hypapophyses is _E. carinata_).


----------



## Thrasops

Another locality, one that used to be extremely rare but is now getting more widespread in Europe, is this one: Xi'an.

Superficially they look more like Beijing animals but with a more silvery/ grey tinge and less pink flushing.

My original animals came from Sergey Ryabov and Gidi van der Belt around 2004/2005.


----------



## Thrasops

Here is a good image of babies I have bred from different localities comparing their coloration.

North-East China (right/ top)
Xi'an (centre)
Beijing (left/ bottom)


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## Thrasops

And some more images of baby _E. dione_ I have bred. Whilst this species has been recorded laying up to 24 eggs, I find average clutch size is much lower than that, with 4-8 being usual for my specimens... BUT the eggs are huge and the babies hatch out very large and chunky and well able to take pinky mice as a first meal.

Here are some baby North-East China locality (this is the species I have bred most of, mainly as I have had them longest and have most adult pairs):


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## Thrasops

Baby Beijing locality animals... god I love that pink blushing!


----------



## Thrasops

Baby Xi'an locality...


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## Thrasops

Baby Korean locality. I have only bred this locality once, sadly I lost my female a couple of years back. So I am always on the lookout for more from South Korea, it seems very hard to find!


----------



## Thrasops

On a somewhat related note, Dione's rat snakes are still probably my favourite species to keep, I just find them extremely nice pets and don't require the space of some of the more majestic animals like Russian rat snakes and Coachwhips.

In the future I am looking to acquire some more localities from Russia and Mongolia. Mongolia animals in particular look very attractive, with a bronze coloration and tiger striping. There's also a nice population in North China (Heilongjian) bordering with Russia which are sort of monotone grey and black that I would love to keep.

Here is another adult I keep, unknown locality but I suspect Russia, showing how bright and attractive this species can be.


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## John1975

In reference to the grass snake post can I ask what you feed them? I love this species. I found a place in Gloucester a couple if years back where I caught Couple but ultimately felt bad about having wild snakes so released them back there. They would only take frogs/newts which I equally wasn’t comfortable with. They wouldn’t even take live fish


----------



## Thrasops

John1975 said:


> In reference to the grass snake post can I ask what you feed them? I love this species. I found a place in Gloucester a couple if years back where I caught Couple but ultimately felt bad about having wild snakes so released them back there. They would only take frogs/newts which I equally wasn’t comfortable with. They wouldn’t even take live fish


I feed mine about equal ratios of pink/ fuzzy mice (males) or adult mice (female); fish (either defrosted lancefish, chunks of trout etc.) and frogs legs bought from gourmet sellers. For more information have a read of the thread I linked to where I go into feeding a bit more in-depth.

There's really no need to catch wild specimens, a few people breed various subspecies and CB will always be much better than wild ones. I am sure Andrew Grimm has already got eggs this year. These will be far easier to keep and get feeding and won't have parasites etc associated with wild specimens.

The newly hatched babies can sometimes be a pain, when all else fails they will take live guppies, although usually they will get going on chunks of trout without too many problems. It is also possible to feed them fish-flavoured cat food although I doubt that does them any good long term.


----------



## Thrasops

Thrasops said:


> Well yes, I know... you know I have been posting pictures on here for years, and they all seem to disappear.
> 
> Here is a random photo posted from my Facebook, let's see how long it remains visible. I open it in a new tab and copy the link. Click the yellow icon at the top of the post bar on RFUK and paste the link in there:
> 
> image
> 
> This is the way I have always done it.
> 
> It occurs to me it is also possible to upload pics to albums on RFUK, I have uploaded the same picture to a new album on my profile entitled 'Snakes' (I have not uploaded pics to an RFUK album for many years, around a decade I think).
> 
> I will try the same way here:
> 
> image
> 
> Let's see if that one stays. I am actually quite curious now. (Photo of one of my King rat snakes, _Elaphe carinata_)
> 
> Photobucket used to be free and it was always free when I used it. I have not logged into it for years and years and having done so just now it tells me I am above the 250 image free tier limit and that I have to pay unless I remove photos. I am not going to do that but here is a link to an image from there to see if it works. It certainly is a lot less laggy then it was on my older computer. (Photo of a juvenile Japanese rat snake, _Elaphe climacophora_).
> 
> [URL=https://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm86/Thrasops/enclosure%2013.jpg]image[/URL]]image[/URL]
> 
> I will monitor this comment and see how long it takes any of the images to disappear, if they do at all.


Interesting, I have been watching this comment every day. The photo that has disappeared for me first is the one shared from an RFUK album, the Photobucket and Facebook images are still there for me.

Will keep monitoring.


----------



## Thrasops

Few more uploads for tonight. Today will be Horseshoe whip snakes (Hemorrhois hippocrepis). This is the first species of snake I ever caught and kept, in 1987 (I know the exact date as I ordered the book _A Step-by-step Book about Snakes_ by Robert Anderson the same day to the Gibraltar book shop, I still have it with the receipt inside).

Since that time a day has not gone by that I have not had this species in my care, meaning I have been keeping Horseshoe whip snakes for thirty-three years.

As the most common snake on Gibraltar, it is a species I encountered may, many times throughout my childhood and adolescence, so I have a lot of stories about this species; from the time I caught one that regurgitated a Blackbird; the time I found one about a mile out to sea whilst kayaking with my cousin; the time I found one attempting to eat a road-killed seagull and so on.

They are actually pretty easy snakes to keep although can be a bit defensive (not always though).


----------



## Thrasops

These snakes are interesting predators, in the wild you often see them on old stone walls and even on the side of houses, where they hunt for rodents, geckos, wall lizards, chicks and even bats (they are one of the few European snakes that are regularly documented eating bats).

I wrote an in-depth article recounting my experiences with the species which can be found here:

https://onedrive.live.com/?id=79630B0053A175DE!132&cid=79630B0053A175DE

A few more piccies including some babies I have bred. This is one species I definitely cannot complain about the lack of demand for!


----------



## Thrasops

And some photos by other (far more skilled than I!) photographers from when they have visited my collection.

First pic by Lorenzo de Roo of Sibons Photography, second two by Darrell Raw.


----------



## New_bee

Thrasops said:


> These snakes are interesting predators, in the wild you often see them on old stone walls and even on the side of houses, where they hunt for rodents, geckos, wall lizards, chicks and even bats (they are one of the few European snakes that are regularly documented eating bats).
> 
> I wrote an in-depth article recounting my experiences with the species which can be found here:
> 
> https://onedrive.live.com/?id=79630B0053A175DE!132&cid=79630B0053A175DE
> 
> A few more piccies including some babies I have bred. This is one species I definitely cannot complain about the lack of demand for!


Hi Francis,

what do you use to make pictures?

Another question: in the posts of building your vivariums and recently in the one of the Horseshoe whip snake I see some green „surroundings“, is this moss? Is it natural or synthetic?

Happy to hear from you.

Gerald


----------



## Alfonzo

Thrasops said:


> And some photos by other (far more skilled than I!) photographers from when they have visited my collection.
> 
> First pic by Lorenzo de Roo of Sibons Photography, second two by Darrell Raw.


The peachy blushing on these is beautiful. What lovely snakes


----------



## Thrasops

New_bee said:


> Hi Francis,
> 
> what do you use to make pictures?
> 
> Another question: in the posts of building your vivariums and recently in the one of the Horseshoe whip snake I see some green „surroundings“, is this moss? Is it natural or synthetic?
> 
> Happy to hear from you.
> 
> Gerald


Hi Gerald, I usually use just my mobile phone, I am not a very good photographer but as long as the snake is in the frame I consider that sufficient haha.

In some of the vivs I use Reindeer Moss just for decoration. It is natural but not alive. I also grow moss in some of my amphibian and lizard vivs.



Alfonzo said:


> The peachy blushing on these is beautiful. What lovely snakes


Thanks!


----------



## New_bee

Thrasops said:


> In some of the vivs I use Reindeer Moss just for decoration. It is natural but not alive. I also grow moss in some of my amphibian and lizard vivs.
> Thanks!


Thank you, already found it - Dr. Google helped :whistling2:. Looks nice!

Another question as you recently shared photos from your Elaphe dione, do they change their colour after they have hatched.


----------



## Thrasops

New_bee said:


> Thank you, already found it - Dr. Google helped :whistling2:. Looks nice!
> 
> Another question as you recently shared photos from your Elaphe dione, do they change their colour after they have hatched.


Hatchlings can look more intense and have cleaner markings at the beginning, yes; as they get older they can become slightly less vibrant (especially the North/ Eastern China animals, where the bright strawberry red markings can become a more brick red or brownish as they mature) but they do not lose a HUGE amount of colour and some remain very nicely and vibrantly patterned.


----------



## New_bee

Hum, have you ever seen a hatchling like this?

I have never seen this locality...!?
„Parents“ are yellowish and light grey


----------



## Thrasops

New_bee said:


> Hum, have you ever seen a hatchling like this?
> 
> I have never seen this locality...!?
> „Parents“ are yellowish and light grey


I have, it looks like Western Chinese animal or possibly South Russian. I found one quite similar but more brown near Jinan in 2015.












However the difference in colour between parents and baby is odd. Normally they look like smaller versions of the parents with crisper, more contrasting pattern. It could be the result of crossing lines in captivity I suppose, I have seen different colours hatch out of the same clutch when different localities are paired.


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## Thrasops

They have a humid hide... You give them an additional laying box.... And they just burrow under the water bowl and lay there instead.

Twin-Spotted rat snake (_Elaphe bimaculata_) with eggs. Actually my first time breeding this species, so very happy.

I can see four out so far. Assuming they all hatch I think I will keep two for myself and have promised two to Melissa Baer, I think she has a few left in her though.


----------



## Roseanna

Thrasops said:


> They have a humid hide... You give them an additional laying box.... And they just burrow under the water bowl and lay there instead.
> 
> Twin-Spotted rat snake (_Elaphe bimaculata_) with eggs. Actually my first time breeding this species, so very happy.
> 
> I can see four out so far. Assuming they all hatch I think I will keep two for myself and have promised two to Melissa Baer, I think she has a few left in her though.


 Lovely picture. Are you letting the female incubate them herself ? Very rarely see breeders doing that nowadays.would be very interested in updates


----------



## Thrasops

Roseanna said:


> Lovely picture. Are you letting the female incubate them herself ? Very rarely see breeders doing that nowadays.would be very interested in updates


No, she has been laying this week and I just managed to put pictures up. I don't think there are any instances of rat snakes incubating eggs after laying, in any event I incubate these using my 'tights' method.


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## johndavidwoods

Well now you can't just leave that there. What is your 'tights' method?


----------



## Roseanna

johndavidwoods said:


> Well now you can't just leave that there. What is your 'tights' method?


 I forgot to ask this !
Also want to know


----------



## Thrasops

johndavidwoods said:


> Well now you can't just leave that there. What is your 'tights' method?





Roseanna said:


> I forgot to ask this !
> Also want to know


Ah! Sorry. I made a thread about this many years ago, it is just a cheap but effective method of incubation I use that I have found serves very well for most Colubrid and lizard eggs.

All I do is half-fill a plastic tub with water, place a thermostatically controlled aquarium heater within set to the desired temperature, then stretch a pair of ladies's tights over the tub. The eggs are placed onto the tights and then the box is closed.

Every couple of days I open it to circulate air and shake excess condensation from the lid. Using this method I have had very high hatching success rates for fertile eggs.


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## johndavidwoods

Sounds great! I don't think I would ever have come up with that myself.


----------



## Thrasops

Thrasops said:


> Well yes, I know... you know I have been posting pictures on here for years, and they all seem to disappear.
> 
> Here is a random photo posted from my Facebook, let's see how long it remains visible. I open it in a new tab and copy the link. Click the yellow icon at the top of the post bar on RFUK and paste the link in there:
> 
> image
> 
> This is the way I have always done it.
> 
> It occurs to me it is also possible to upload pics to albums on RFUK, I have uploaded the same picture to a new album on my profile entitled 'Snakes' (I have not uploaded pics to an RFUK album for many years, around a decade I think).
> 
> I will try the same way here:
> 
> image
> 
> Let's see if that one stays. I am actually quite curious now. (Photo of one of my King rat snakes, _Elaphe carinata_)
> 
> Photobucket used to be free and it was always free when I used it. I have not logged into it for years and years and having done so just now it tells me I am above the 250 image free tier limit and that I have to pay unless I remove photos. I am not going to do that but here is a link to an image from there to see if it works. It certainly is a lot less laggy then it was on my older computer. (Photo of a juvenile Japanese rat snake, _Elaphe climacophora_).
> 
> [URL=https://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm86/Thrasops/enclosure%2013.jpg]image[/URL]]image[/URL]
> 
> I will monitor this comment and see how long it takes any of the images to disappear, if they do at all.


Hm. The first picture has also disappeared today, almost dead on a month after it was posted. I wonder if there is a time limit for them?

So all that is left is the link from Photobucket.


----------



## New_bee

Thrasops said:


> Hm. The first picture has also disappeared today, almost dead on a month after it was posted. I wonder if there is a time limit for them?
> 
> So all that is left is the link from Photobucket.


Indeed, one picture disappeared. Any admin who can help?


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## Thrasops

Some baby _Psammophis sibilans_ (Hissing Sand snakes) hatched out today. They are extremely tiny, delicate and squiggly little blighters so not taking any chances - taking pics from the bath!

I have bred these regularly in the past. The species is easy to breed but the babies can be a chore to raise until they get feeding on pinks.

There is an article on my experiences with these species in the last 13 years here:

https://onedrive.live.com/?id=79630B0053A175DE!132&cid=79630B0053A175DE


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## Thrasops

(from a Facebook post I made yesterday - there was a video appended but I am not sure how to attach them on here).

HYDRATION

Hydration is too often regarded as 'basic' husbandry yet recently it has become clear to me that a lot of people overlook it an awful lot.

Rain chambers for example are incredibly useful for acclimating and rehydrating freshly imported tropical species like _Boiga_ and _Gonyosoma_ (almost every WC _Boiga dendrophila_ I have ever seen imported has been hideously dehydrated). 24-48 hours in a rain chamber before quarantine can help alleviate that. Yet you rarely see this being mentioned these days.

Aside from daily water bowl changes (which IMHO are a prerequisite of good care and are the first thing I do when I get up each morning) there are other easy ways of helping keep animals hydrated.

1. Have a humid hide in every enclosure. This can be as simple as a plastic tub half filled with damp soil and chopped sphagnum, or a piece of curved cork bark under which there is a layer of sphagnum that is kept humid. I like to half bury these and lift them periodically to add water. Even desert animals get the choice of a humid hide. Never experience a partial shed again.

2. Have a deep substrate. This keeps in a LOT of humidity. The deeper the substrate, the more humidity it can hold. This is a big reason why many Monitor keepers swear by at least a foot of substrate depth even for small monitors and I feel it is useful for all sorts of other lizards, from Eyed lizards to Bearded dragons - let alone snakes.

3. Spraying regularly. Even my desert animals are sprayed at least twice a week so they can lap up droplets.

4. Dipping prey items in water (NOT defrosting them in water as this causes them to lose soluble nutrients). This doubles as an effective trick to get reluctant snakes feeding on f/t. I dip the nose of a prey item into water and carefully hold it to the snout of a snake with a pair of long tongs, making sure there is a droplet hanging off the prey items' snout. The snake will more often than not suck the water droplet off the prey item's face. Keep holding it there and it will keep drinking, and often it will then open its mouth and the prey item can be carefully inserted. I have used this method to get countless reluctant feeders started.

5. I cannot state enough how useful it is to get a reptile used to drinking from a squirty-dropper bottle manually. This makes it easy to ensure that your pet gets enough water every day. You can offer the nozzle and squirt a few drops out, and if the animal starts drinking you can keep going until it stops. I try to offer water this way to all my animals daily, and many have learned to actively approach me for access to it. (It is important to have separate bottles for each enclosure to help with biosecurity! But they are only 99p each so it is easy to replace them).


----------



## Thrasops

I do not normally post pics of new imports before I have had a chance to quarantine and stabilise them but I had to stick up images of this beauty and enlarge on my process a bit.

I received a group of Psammophis afroccidentalis (West African sand snakes) a few days ago and among them was this sole Psammophis elegans (Elegant sand snake), a species I have long fantasised about.

Admittedly it was not in the best of shape, like many WC Psammophiids it has some scarring and also a very mild R.I. To be honest the first night I did not hold out much hope for it - while it has good body tone it seemed limp and listless and that is not how Psammophis should be!

After a day of my usual quarantine procedure (plain printer paper substrate to catch ectoparasites and gather faecals, hide, plastic plant for cover, water dish) I was not happy with how it was looking. It was dull and listless and kept trying to climb. In the past I have reported how a large group of Psammophis schokari I imported in 2011 fared very differently depending on whether I acclimated them in faunariums with UV provided, or in tubs - to the point I switched them all over to faunariums and got them all going.

Despite the name 'sand snakes' many of these Central and Southern African Psammophis species come from quite lush and verdant habitats; habitat shots for P. praeornatus for example are lush and verdant, and asking around some friends such as Myke Clarkson and Darrell Raw that I know have herped the species for environmental and habitat pointers it was made clear these are semi-arboreal grassland snakes that climb into bushes and scrub.

This is also noteworthy - their shape is somewhat different to the 'sibilans complex' Psammophis I keep, and even the 'schokari-complex' species - they are thin, whip like and pointy-faced and look almost like Twig snakes (Thelotornis) or some of the more arboreal New World species like some Philodryas or Uromacer.

This meant that I had to consider somewhat different parameters for this species, as a species that prefers to climb and requires more humidity and also high UV and hot basking areas.

So I took the calculated risk of breaking quarantine. I applied frontline (it had already been kept with diatomaceous earth before I got it) and shoved it into a fully set up 3x3' viv with high UV (dual Arcadia T5s), ample basking lights (a 20w ceramic for background warmth, a 35W halogen and a 50w Arcadia UVA bulb), and lots of branches and twigs to climb.

I also drip-fed it some repto-boost and water to rehydrate it a bit.

What a difference good quality lighting, proper heating and some rehydration makes! Just a day later and the snake has a new lease of life. It has perked up considerably, it is moving around, colours are looking sharper and it is taking notice of things outside the terrarium and watching us as all good Psammophis should. Next the challenge of getting it to eat looms...

I have to admit I think this is going to be the last lot of WC snakes I take on, I simply do not have the time any more with such a large collection to go through the long and rigorous process. I hope I am able to get this specimen going but after, there are already enough beautiful and hearty CB snakes to focus on to bother with fresh imports any more.

Nonetheless, it is a beautiful snake and I am thrilled to have received it.


----------



## richardhind

Wow very nice indeed,
Fingers crossed it pulls thru ok, looks awsome 

Sent from my ELS-NX9 using Tapatalk


----------



## Swindinian

Thrasops said:


> There's a fantastic podcast at Reptile 'n' Chill here given by Roman Muryn where he talks about the concepts we are discussing on this thread, his own exceptional collection and the upcoming Advancing Herpetological Husbandry conference in the USA this September. Strongly recommend giving it a listen, Roman has a talent for breaking down difficult to understand concepts so they are easy to understand.
> 
> 
> https://www.spreaker.com/user/midla...2V7bv-k3HfT0g-hnFvnqVsy3TBwTCF97_dpsDmImqffAA


No longer accessible?


----------



## Thrasops

Swindinian said:


> No longer accessible?


Try here:

https://podbay.fm/p/reptile-n-chill/e/1563224400


----------



## Swindinian

Wow, just wanted to say thank you for all you have shared with us. 

Gained some insights, and been inspired:notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Thrasops

Swindinian said:


> Wow, just wanted to say thank you for all you have shared with us.
> 
> Gained some insights, and been inspired:notworthy::notworthy:


Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!


----------



## Thrasops

I don't normally give _Psammophis _particularly high terraria (24" height is usual, I always considered floor space more important) but this trio of _Psammophis afroccidentalis_ are in a 36" high viv and spend so much of their time climbing up into the branches that I'm starting to have second thoughts about the others too.

Of course different _Psammophis _species show more or less arboreality, this species was only recently split off from _P. sibilans_ though so I wonder if my other sibilans-complex animals would also climb as much...

They have come through quarantine marvelously well, two of the three are feeding from tongs, the third will take prey dropped just in front of it (not quite off tongs but reliably enough I can leave it there and it will eat it as soon as I step back).


----------



## JustABeginner2

Those are some very pretty snakes. The facial markings are beautiful!


----------



## Thrasops

"If we can't see them, they can't see us"

Dyrim the Children's Python (_Antaresia childreni_).

I rehomed him last year from the lovely Teddie Simler, he came to me with a huge attitude and would literally snap at anything that came near the viv. He has calmed down considerably and now will usually allow himself to be handled without biting. Great little snake full of personality and a ravenous eater.

I am cooling his ambient temperatures as of now for a couple of months. Wintering reptiles from the southern hemisphere presents an interesting conundrum; their winters are opposite to ours! Which in some species has caused issues in the past. However as a captive bred animal I assume this is less of an issue so does not have to be 'reprogrammed' - he came through last winter splendidly.


----------



## Thrasops

The "forgotten" cousin of the Russian rat snake, _Elaphe schrenckii_; _Elaphe anomala_, the Korean rat snake.

Ironically it does not occur in Korea, the animals there are all _E. schrenckii_. To make matters more confusing, the Korean _E. schrenckii_ look like _E. anomala_ rather than the black and yellow animals we are familiar with.

What we call the 'Korean' rat snake in the hobby actually comes from China - although as both species were formerly considered to be one, there has undoubtedly been a fair degree of hybridisation of captive animals in the past.

That said, there is one very old record of _E. anomala_ near Pyongyang by Clifford Pope which has never been verified. My friend Amael Borzee, a researcher working in Korea, has said that North Korean delegates seemed to be familiar with both species.

All my rat snakes went into brumation last month, but here are some photos from before they did that I uploaded on Facebook


----------



## Thrasops

Another rat snake from before she went into brumation. This is my adult female Twin-Spotted rat snake (_Elaphe bimaculata_), she laid for me for the first time this year and the hatchlings will be making their way to Melissa Baer in the US next year once the shows reopen (I hope).

This girl has recovered her weight wonderfully well, I have high hopes for another clutch next year.


----------



## Thrasops

Just over a year ago I was asked if I wanted to rehome this Malagasy Blonde hognose (_Leioheterodon modestus_) from Andrew Gordon.

At one time I had all three species of _Leioheterodon _so am happy to have this one again. Really nice animal and has got through quarantine with flying colours. Still very shy but will take food readily - then skedaddle.

Very handsome 'dull brown snake.'


----------



## Thrasops

Big _Psammophis _flex.
_Psammophis _are _Psammophis _whatever the species, I guess.
Here are seven species of them.

_Psammophis afroccidentalis_ (West African sand snake)
_Psammophis elegans_ (Elegant sand snake)
_Psammophis mossambicus_ (Olive grass snake)
_Psammophis phillipsi_ (Phillip's sand snake)
_Psammophis praeornatus _(Ornate Olympic snake)
_Psammophis schokari _(Schokari sand snake)
_Psammophis sibilans _(Hissing sand snake)


----------



## Thrasops

Photos of shed skin of Tiger rat snake (_Spilotes pullatus_) showing the sensory pits among the head scales. The function of these is incompletely understood but _may _be involved in detecting changes in air pressure or light/ shadows.

So far no studies prove their function, only provide conjecture, except in the case of marine Sea snakes (in which they are greatly more derived and have been shown to aid in detecting changes in water pressure), File snakes (Acrochordidae) and some fossorial species (_Xenopeltis _and _Cylindrophis_). I believe those on the head scales of _Nerodia _also serve a sensory function.

The organs are called scale sensillae (although have also been named 'corpuscles' or 'papillae' and serve some sort of tactile and mechanosensory function in many lizards and snakes:

Jackson, Morris K. "Histology and distribution of cutaneous touch corpuscles in some leptotyphlopid and colubrid snakes (Reptilia, Serpentes)." Journal of Herpetology (1977): 7-15.

Von During, M. "Sensory nerve endings of the skin and deeper structures." Biology of the reptilia, neurology A 9 (1979): 407-441.

Jackson, Morris K., and Gernot S. Doetsch. "Response properties of mechanosensitive nerve fibers innervating cephalic skin of the Texas rat snake." Experimental neurology 56.1 (1977): 78-90.

Here are some citations on their role in marine species, which also contrast and compare with some terrestrial and fossorial species.

Van Der Kooij, Jeroen, and David Povel. "Scale sensillae of the file snake (Serpentes: Acrochordidae) and some other aquatic and burrowing snakes." Netherlands Journal of Zoology 47.4 (1996): 443-456.

Crowe-Riddell, Jenna M., et al. "Ultrastructural evidence of a mechanosensory function of scale organs (sensilla) in sea snakes (Hydrophiinae)." Royal Society open science 6.4 (2019): 182022.

Crowe-Riddell, Jenna M., et al. "The evolution of scale sensilla in the transition from land to sea in elapid snakes." Open biology 6.6 (2016): 160054.

Crowe-Riddell, Jenna Margaret. The Evolution of Cutaneous Senses in Marine Snakes (Hydrophiinae). Diss. 2019.

Obviously terrestrial species do not have such derived function but the way certain taxa such as _Thrasops _have the odd 'twitch' of jerking their head backwards and forwards in an almost mechanical way (and also have even larger and more numerous of these weird spots) has led some to posit they may be using them in a sensory manner, although as yet there is no proof of this.


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## Thrasops

Another dose of "dull brown snake" - _Elaphe carinata_ (King rat snake) before they went into brumation.

With rat snakes like this, that inhabit such a wide range that some will brumate and others probably remain active year-round, I always choose to brumate. This is because a study on wild Black rat snakes across their range found that those that live in areas where they brumate tend to live up to a decade longer (up to 30 years recorded, although they mature later and females may not breed until their 7th or 9th year).

Animals that do not brumate tend to only live 20 years but mature and breed at age 4.

So, things like Beauty snakes, King rat snakes, Corn snakes and so on that may or may not brumate depending on where they originate, get brumated.


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## Thrasops

My big disappointment this year was my female Tiger rat snake (_Spilotes pullatus_) slugging out. I had some small breeding successes with Twin-Spots, Dione's, Diadems, _Psammophis sibilans_, _Platyceps _, a few other rat snakes etc. but I was really hoping to get baby _Spilotes_. Maybe next year.

The experience did not seem to be any good for the female either, she went off food for some time and had a _really _long shed cycle after (I don't think I have ever seen a snake shed, lay, then go off food for a couple of months then shed again this way).

Fortunately after that shed she started hitting food again like a runaway locomotive and I have been fattening her up a bit so she is back in good condition.


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## Thrasops

My_ Psammophis elegans_ (Elegant sand snake) has perked up a lot since I got her and taken f/t meals (left overnight). Acting a lot more _Psammophis_-like! Periscoping and getting a good look at everything.


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## Thrasops

_Platyceps rogersi_, Rogers' Flat-headed whip snake.

I have been keeping this species since about 2011, with more individuals acquired in 2015 (some may remember my 'Platter of _Platyceps_' thread where i detailed how I built their enclosures.

Some of these took a long time to accept frozen food but eventually they all did and are very enjoyable little snakes to keep and watch.

I cool these guys over winter, not a full brumation but just lowered temperatures, reduced food intake and smaller prey, and shorter photoperiod.


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## Thrasops

*staaaaaare

I've taken better pics of my Taiwan Beauty snakes (_Elaphe taeniurus friesi_) before, but I find these ones funny.

One of these (my smallest) is in the largest viv in my lounge and she is always watching us intently (usually waiting for food).


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## Thrasops

One of the quirks of _Thrasops _is the tendency for them to make chewing motions when they're agitated (as well as jerky, side-to-side "tic" of the head). I've sometimes wondered whether the purpose of this chewing motion is to get more venom into the mouth in preparation for a bite, as they don't have grooved fangs to inject it.

Here is a _T. occidentalis_ (Western black tree snake) doing just that.


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## Thrasops

And more images of my pair of _Thrasops occidentalis_ (Western Black tree snakes) just because they're that cool.

These guys like to inflate their throats, Boomslang-style. Then again they are closely related to those.


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## Thrasops

*Desire to boop intensifies*

More pics of the female Twin-spotted rat snake (_Elaphe bimaculata_)

Pretty much ideal pet snakes. Originally I found them much shyer than Dione's rat snake (which they closely resemble) but over time they have become much more bold and will happily bask in plain sight and in the open.


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## Thrasops

More pics of the Tiger rat snakes (_Spilotes pullatus_).
I'm just clearing phone pics here from the last couple of months, thought some of you would like to see.


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## Thrasops

_Leioheterodon modestus_ (Malagasy Blonde Hognose)
Supposedly these guys can hood, mine hasn't done it and I never noticed it on the animals I used to keep, but it is getting pretty close here.


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## Thrasops

_Hierophis gemonensis_ (Balkan whip snake)


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## Thrasops

Big old Japanese rat snake (_Elaphe climacophora_) ready to go down for brumation. Still comes out to bask even with the heaters off.


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## Thrasops

Horseshoe whip snake (_Hemorrhois hippocrepis_).

I often see these snakes out and about during winter in southern Iberia, so during these months I simply turn off heating and leave them at room temperature with lighting still on, with lower food intake and smaller prey. They come out and bask most days.

Further north they do hibernate for a month or two.

Huh. And just like that I have pre-emptively done my usual Christmas-time 'Thrasops thread'


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## Thrasops

Possibly my most photogenic species of snake, _Psammophis schokari _(Schokari sand snake).

On a separate note, I am interested in the etymology of the specific name "_schokari_" - in the hobby this species is commonly known as the "Schokari Sand Snake" but I believe this to be a misnomer and the name either to be derived from one of three places:

1. the outdated English word "schokar" - a type of student or astronomer, which would fit the snake's propensity to rear up and "periscope" to study its surroundings

2. It may also be derived from the surname Schokar; (_Dendrelaphis schokari_ is referred to as "Schokar's Bronzeback" and this species is referred to as "Schokar's Sand Racer" in Elsevier's Dictionary of Reptiles). Are we aware of a taxonomist or zoologist by the name of Schokar around in the late 1700s?

3. Brandstätter refers to Corkill & Cochrane (1966) who associate the name _schokari _from the Arabic '_shigari_', which would mean 'from the trees'. Given this species is an arid-land species this would seem odd, but actually there ARE trees in their habitat and in some areas the species inhabits more vegetated environments and has dark stripes down its back; they also climb very readily!


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## spigotbush

some absolutely stunning snakes there. that balkan whipsnake is a handsome chap/lass. i do increasingly like the look of some of the understated species. they may be quite drab in colour but often have quite pleasant patterns. the repeated tone shift on each scale and things make them more interesting the closer the photos. one of these days i will get my act together and go out on some herping adventures. 
actually got an interesting project in the works. a friend who owns some land near ironbridge may be up for letting me do an informal survey on his orchard. he has seen grass snakes and slow worms fairly reliably, and has historically seen common lizards although not in recent years. most interestingly though i have heard a couple of people describe snakes that sound very much like smooth snakes. which would be great for the area.

quite interesting on the sensory pits. not something i had come across yet and another rabbit hole to go down:2thumb:.


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## Thrasops

spigotbush said:


> some absolutely stunning snakes there. that balkan whipsnake is a handsome chap/lass. i do increasingly like the look of some of the understated species. they may be quite drab in colour but often have quite pleasant patterns. the repeated tone shift on each scale and things make them more interesting the closer the photos. one of these days i will get my act together and go out on some herping adventures.
> actually got an interesting project in the works. a friend who owns some land near ironbridge may be up for letting me do an informal survey on his orchard. he has seen grass snakes and slow worms fairly reliably, and has historically seen common lizards although not in recent years. most interestingly though i have heard a couple of people describe snakes that sound very much like smooth snakes. which would be great for the area.
> 
> quite interesting on the sensory pits. not something i had come across yet and another rabbit hole to go down:2thumb:.


Thanks! Yeah I think they are very attractive in their own way. For me. nicely marked Horseshoe whip snakes are one of the most handsome snake species in the world.

To be honest most of the species that have appeared on this thread are very hardy snakes, would make good alternative species to the more common ones like corn snakes and king snakes (obviously a few of them are venomous but rear-fanged so that alone probably makes those 'intermediate' level).

I am lucky in that between my work and my house there is a heath with Adders, Grass snakes, Viviparous lizards and Slow worms (although only Adders and Viviparous lizards are common there) so I get to see those most days during the active season. The latest in the year I have seen an Adder out was Boxing Day around 2011-2012 I think... although I miss going out there this year. It's actually a shame I don't know how to link videos on here, I have got some nice clips of interesting things there. I need to update my Youtube channel more but it's never been something I've been interested in taking further.


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## Thrasops

My Egyptian egg eater (_Dasypeltis bazi_) swallowing a Coturnix quail egg.
I generally feed her every couple of months (she will tell me she is hungry by going into active foraging mode for a few days) and then she will eat 3-6 of these eggs. Something that never gets old to watch.


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## Bombjack

Found it


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## Thrasops

Hey it has been half a year since I updated this thread. I admit I tend not to post regularly any more, it goes in spurts. For some reason I seem to always post a lot of updates towards the end of the year.

New addition. I _very_ rarely get new snakes any more, simply because my collection is already huge and I tend to hold back a few things I breed every year so it is fairly self sustaining. In fact I do not buy anything, however now and then I will accept rehomes for friends that for whatever reason need or want to give up a pet.

A few months ago I was asked to identify and provide a home for this little mite somebody found stowed away in cargo from South Africa.

A Brown water snake (_Lycodonomorphus rufulus_). Cute little thing! Surprisingly chilled and inquisitive too. I have to admit it is insanely dull and brown even by my standards, but on the plus side my wife thinks it's cute!

Thanks so much Paul 'Tappers' Tapley for dropping it off to me. Feeding was a bit hairy at first but it has settled after only taking live guppies and now accepts f/t fish and the occasional frog leg.



__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Thrasops

_Thrasops occidentalis_ (Western Black tree snakes). I feel I have to share and talk about them a bit now and then, lest people forget why I chose my username!


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## Thrasops

A nice example of "cryptic basking" by a Children's python (_Antaresia childreni_). The snake likes to hide beneath the log pile and expose part of its body, which it flattens out somewhat to maximize surface area. I give this animal a hide box and a small heat mat, it still is usually to be seen basking though - either overtly or cryptically.


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## Thrasops

Hey, he came out pretty well.

One of my _Psammophis mossambicus _(Olive grass snakes) for once not launching himself at me for food. Instead, in a zen-like state, he surveys me with interest while he prepares to launch himself at me for food.

Some snakes like the security of cover, the touch of stones and branches and twigs on their body... and then there is this thing that just curls up on the open ground.


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## Thrasops

A young and colourful Horseshoe whip snake (_Hemorrhois hippocrepis_). The first snake species I ever kept... caught my first in 1987, ohhh.... 34 years ago now.


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## Thrasops

A _very_ uncharacteristic 'snake selfie.' This Taiwanese Beauty snake (_Elaphe taeniura friesi_) is an inquisitive little madame and climbs out of her box right up onto my shoulders and head, to Jenny's amusement.


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## Thrasops

My female Balkan whip snake (_Hierophis gemonensis_). Typical dull brown snake, not much to say about it... other than she is awesome. Really the best girl. Cute temperament, very inquisitive and active. Will follow you along her viv hoping the door gets opened so she can come out and play.


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## Thrasops

My favourite locality/ colour form of one of my favourite snakes. This is a Beijing locality _Elaphe dione _(Dione's or Steppes rat snake), a holdback I bred a couple of years back. I absolutely adore the pink flushing you get on the cheeks and flanks of this locality. For me, the most attractive Dione's I have. Just, some of the best pet snakes it is possible to keep IMO.


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## Thrasops

One of my younger Japanese rat snakes (_Elaphe climacophora_) starting to colour up a bit. This animal was bred from a female given to me by Charlotte Wilford around 2015 and one of my own sires. Like most Japanese rat snakes, they are ridiculously food oriented and will attempt to eat you if they can catch you.


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## Thrasops

This is Kaonashi the Louisiana Milk snake (_Lampropeltis triangulum amaura _- or is it _gentilis_ now? Not sure which I have as I do not know origin, this animal was given to me as a rehome by the lovely Teddie Simler). Kaonashi is UV basking in the open. It doesn't happen often but it DOES happen! How do I know it is UV basking and not thermoregulation? Because Kaonashi - like all my snakes - also has a small heat mat and a halogen bulb over her basking spot... on the other side of the enclosure. Usually she will sit on top of the mat and under the bulb but every now and then she will curl up on the other side away from the heat but still bask.

(She also has a selection of hides, both underground, integrated into the rock wall, and on top of the soil.

This is a really cool milk snake species, they remain really tiny, just shy of 24" long. Perfect little size.

I normally do not name my snakes, never saw the point - however I do have a silly superstition that any animal that comes to me with a name has to keep that name forever.


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## Thrasops

"Are you lookin' at me? Are YOU lookin' at ME??"

_phoot_ (throat puffs up)

_Thrasops occidentalis_, Western Black tree snake. WC _Thrasops_ are a lot more defensive than CB ones. It has taken a while to get these to calm down. Completely unlike my CB _T. jacksonii_. But we are getting there, with patience and understanding.


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## Thrasops

9 eggs from a _Psammophis afroccidentalis _(West African sand snake). Most look like slugs but I think at least fourgood ones in there. Not aware of this species having been bred in captivity before, at least not since its taxonomic reshuffle. So this might just be a world first, to my knowledge. At least under its current taxonomy (the species was identified in 2019).


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## Thrasops

_Psammophis elegans_ (Elegant sand snake). It is stable and eating and has been for some time. But of all the _Psammophis_ I have ever kept (currently have seven species, have kept at least nine in total) this is the one that makes me worry I will mysteriously find it dead one day. It... just does not act like any other _Psammophis_. Could be a species specific thing. Nevertheless I have done my best with it and it has lasted longer than I thought it would given the condition it arrived in.


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## Thrasops

One of my Dumeril's boas (_Acrantophis dumerili_) basking.










And at the end of its 30" long burrow (the wonders of modern technology, or to be more specific, the selfie-stick).










All bluster aside, my enclosures are fairly simple. They all have a few things in common. A decent size. Furnishings that allow the animal to get its whole body off the ground. Substrate. A humidity gradient. A photogradient. A thermal gradient (whoever says Dumeril's don't like high temperatures is doing something wrong. They don't like high _ambients_, they bask on high surface temperatures or under the halogen all the time). Several deep, dark hides including one humid hide. UV. It is not rocket science.


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## Thrasops

Ahhh! Those lovable Coachwhips! Here are some of the gang.

This one is 'Maeve.'










'Armistice' rearing up to say 'hi bich.'










Meet 'Dolores' (yes these were all named after Westworld characters)


































And 'Maeve' cosying up with 'Bonus'


















Coachwhips are the love of my life. They are incredibly curious, interactive and totally unlike the way they are described in every herp book I have read. I have only ever been bitten once, accidentally, as a feeding bite (spoiler: it hurt). They have _never_ bitten defensively or even made me think they might. At the moment I have eight adults and a few juveniles I bred from them.


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## Thrasops

As was mentioned on the 'Snakes in Tubs and Drawers - What do they do? An Experiment' thread, I took on the pair of Twin-Spotted rat snakes from Roman at the end of the experiment, increasing my group from four to six. As soon as I brought them home, even whilst they were in quarantine, my other two pairs aggressively entered breeding mode. As Roman's pair bred during the experiment at least once, I have now got three mated females, all unrelated (over the years, specimens came variously from Andrew Grimm, Norbert Friedrich, Crystal Palace Reptiles and Roman Muryn/ Joe Brabin).

These guys breed late, they mate in Autumn (in fact one pair is literally mating behind me as I type even now). Their locks last a loooong time too. 12-18 hours is usual but I recorded one lock lasting three days! After last year's first clutch I am looking forward to more babies from these as they are great.


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## Thrasops

More photos of Dyrim the Children's python basking more overtly this time. Definitely thermoregulating rather than exposing to UV as he has placed himself in a warm area out from under the UV lights.


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## Thrasops

A pair of West African sand snakes (_Psammophis afroccidentalis_) sleeping three feet off the ground.


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## Thrasops

Another Horseshoe whip snake (_Hemorrhois hippocrepis_) wonders when food is coming after shedding successfully.


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## Thrasops

Carefully lift up the hide and.... The cow is half buried anyway, she was hiding beneath her buried hide. But looking purty. And eager for food.

King rat snake (_Elaphe carinata_).


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## arwen_7

Thrasops said:


> "Are you lookin' at me? Are YOU lookin' at ME??"
> View attachment 355544


"Oh what big eyes you have!" 🐺

I do sometimes wonder how all the other things fit into their skulls when their eyes are so big like this.


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## Thrasops

arwen_7 said:


> "Oh what big eyes you have!" 🐺
> 
> I do sometimes wonder how all the other things fit into their skulls when their eyes are so big like this.


They certainly don't have big brains in there, for sure lol.


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## Zincubus

Thrasops said:


> The cow is half buried anyway, she was hiding ]


Bit harsh !!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Thrasops

Baby _Elaphe dione_ (Dione's rat snake) - Xi'an locality. This is probably my second favourite locality of Dione's, after Beijing. They are very similar, with nice pink blushing on the cheeks and down the flanks, but the Xi'an specimens I have seen tend to be more silvery grey in colour and the Beijing animals tend to be more yellow, gold or bronze. Both have olive lines running down them.


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## Thrasops

Another _Elaphe dione_ (Dione's rat snake) - North East China locality. This locality can be very attractive with bright strawberry red markings on the head and spots the same colour running down the back (although these normally fade a bit with age).

I used to keep a number of temperate rat snake species outdoors in large aquaria during the spring and summer months and miss doing so. Some more long term members may remember my Grass snake, Japanese rat snake and Russian rat snake posts showing the outdoor enclosures.

It is nice now and again to place one outside on warm spring and summer days (under careful supervision) and watch what it does. This specimen took its time to investigate the grass thoroughly.



















































Then (as they always seem to do) it made a beeline for the pond where it drank and then went for a swim!


































TBC


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## Thrasops

It then hauled itself out onto the warm black pond liner and basked for a while.










































before continuing on again...


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## Thrasops

And finally found a nice secluded south-facing position to curl up in and bask quietly among the garden ornaments.


































































Dione's rat snakes are a weird as they inhabit a wide spread of habitats across a massive range (one of the widest ranges of any snake actually), some of which are actually really dry, and they are known to be able to go for very long periods without water.

On the other hand, they also come from streamside and waterside habitats in places like Eastern Europe, Primorskiye and parts of China, and I have seen images of Chinese specimens eating frogs and even going out into water to steal grebe eggs.

They are not semi-aquatic though... just very very opportunistic (which probably explains their successful range).


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## Thrasops

Winter is ending and Spring is beckoning and there is all sorts of activity happening now my snakes are being roused.

Here is a Big Mama Dione's rat snake (_Elaphe dione_) of the Eastern China locality. This is the largest specimen I have yet seen, I got her from Florence Butler about... five years ago now. She measures 149cm (90-100cm is usual for the species).

Pictured here with a couple of my more usually sized adult animals of the same locality. You can see the difference not just in length but in girth.

There are old records of _Elaphe dione_ hitting six feet from China that I used to think were ludicrous until I saw this girl. Now I still think they are probably exaggerated but perhaps not as much.


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## Thrasops

A couple of shots of some yearling CB _Gonyosoma coelureum_ (Blue Eyed Green trinket snakes) I bred.














































I have kept these for quite a few years (Vietnamese locale since 2010/2011 and Chinese since 2013, with another around 2015 from Faye da Costa) but it was only quite recently I cracked breeding them. I am not sure if they need to be a little older to breed (I don't think so as there are German records of breeding taking place at just two years old) but mine kept me waiting a good 6-7 years before they first bred. I have had best luck after cooling them for 2-3 months.

_G. coelureum_ was split off from _G. prasinum_ last summer in 2021. I was sent a pre-release of the paper at the time by Dr Kevin Messenger but it can be read here:









A new species of Gonyosoma Wagler, 1828 (Serpentes, Colubridae), previously confused with G. prasinum (Blyth, 1854)


A new species of the genus Gonyosoma Wagler is described from Yunnan Province, China. The new species closely resembles G. prasinum (Blyth), but it is differentiated from the latter species by the following characters: precloacal plate divided, iris blue and inside of mouth greyish-white in...



evolsyst.pensoft.net





(The easiest difference seems to be whether the eyes are blue or not).

There is a lesson to be learned here. I always kept the different localities separate. Years on it turns out that they are different species. Fortunately as I kept the lines separate they were never hybridised.


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## Thrasops

I really need to start wearing a cap on the impromptu visits to my local patch on my way home from work... As cannot see my phone screen in the sun. Bringing a decent camera rather than relying on measly mobile pics would be nice too. But, just random sightings as I walk to or from work each day.

Here's a lovely melanistic male Northern Adder, _Vipera berus_, having a sunbathe. Photo taken from a distance to avoid scaring it.



















And a photo from a while back I took with an actual camera (not a phone). I rarely bother carrying cameras as I have a bad habit of smashing the lenses when I jump on things, but it is safe enough in the UK.


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## Thrasops

A fistful of ratsnakes.

Over the last decade I have put together a group of six unrelated adult Twin-Spotted rat snakes (_Elaphe bimaculata_), with the most recent pair coming from Roman Muryn/ Joseph Brabin and another from Andrew Grimm around 2015, and the original pair in 2011 from Crystal Palace Reptiles.

I had my first breeding success with this species in 2020 and witnessed repeated matings during the latter half of 2021 so am expecting more eggs from at least two of my females at the moment.




























Also... dig the socks!


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## Thrasops

A very large King rat snake (_Elaphe carinata_) that was kindly gifted to me to rehome by Florence Butler last year.

This is one _hell_ of a snake; we are moving house in the coming year so I am waiting to see what my options are for a final enclosure for this chap. If I have a garden I will probably go ahead give him an entire shed to himself. If not, an 8x4 viv will have to do. Until then he is quarantining in a measly 6x3. Still within AAL guidelines but really not spacious enough for this beast in my opinion.














































He has settled in well over the last few months, hammers down adult rats as if they were nothing. Oddly he is surprisingly calm for a King rat snake and will climb over me without much fuss. My other (much smaller) King rats are rather more... apprehensive about being interacted with.


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## ian14

Thrasops said:


> A fistful of ratsnakes.
> 
> Over the last decade I have put together a group of six unrelated adult Twin-Spotted rat snakes (_Elaphe bimaculata_), with the most recent pair coming from Roman Muryn/ Joseph Brabin and another from Andrew Grimm around 2015, and the original pair in 2011 from Crystal Palace Reptiles.
> 
> I had my first breeding success with this species in 2020 and witnessed repeated matings during the latter half of 2021 so am expecting more eggs from at least two of my females at the moment.
> 
> View attachment 361245
> 
> 
> View attachment 361246
> 
> 
> View attachment 361247
> 
> 
> Also... dig the socks!


Beautiful snakes. 
I spent years tracking these down and managed to find two unrelated pairs.
Sadly some real problems in my circumstances meant I ended up having to sell them, along with the rest of my collection. 
I would LOVE to get a few of these again to try so.e breeding with them, they are such an underrated species.
Now my life has settled back down again, I would be very keen to get a few again.


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## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> Beautiful snakes.
> I spent years tracking these down and managed to find two unrelated pairs.
> Sadly some real problems in my circumstances meant I ended up having to sell them, along with the rest of my collection.
> I would LOVE to get a few of these again to try so.e breeding with them, they are such an underrated species.
> Now my life has settled back down again, I would be very keen to get a few again.


Chaz and Julian Clare have spoken for the next clutch I have, but with any luck I am hoping for clutches from all three females this year, I have seen mating activity across all of the pairs so we will see what happens! Will try to remember to post on here when I next have some available.


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## Elly66

Thrasops said:


> I really need to start wearing a cap on the impromptu visits to my local patch on my way home from work..


If you turn the light setting of your phone background up when that happens, you'll be able to see better 😉


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## Thrasops

A few of my Coachwhips have been mating this week... looking forward to some more clutches with any luck. I was talking with Jon Coote at the AHH conference a few weeks back who gave me an awesome idea to try with getting the babies onto rodents more easily via scent marking eggs before they hatch. Is all the rage with Grey-Banded king snake breeders so let's see if it works with Coachwhips (and _Psammophis_).


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## Swindinian

The fade out shading on the scalation is really quite striking 🥰
Confused by the scent marking reference. Does that mean they start on avian eggs, which you scent with rodents, to later transition them onto rodents? For some perverse reason, I envisioned you shoving a rodent up a chicken before it laid 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣 obviously my brain was confounding ‘laying’ with ‘hatching’. I think I better go have a caffeine drink to kick start the brain cogs………….

View attachment 361575

[/QUOTE]


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## arwen_7

Isn't some mythical monster meant to hatch from a chicken sitting on snake eggs? What crazy monster will come of a mouse sitting on snake eggs? 😁

Good luck with it, sounds like it would make life easier if they could start on mice.


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## Thrasops

Swindinian said:


> Confused by the scent marking reference. Does that mean they start on avian eggs, which you scent with rodents, to later transition them onto rodents?



So actually it is something far more esoteric and interesting than that!

I was asking Jon Coote (who used to work with T-Rex) why the 'Lizard Maker' product was discontinued all those years ago (as I used to use it a lot, it was a lizard scent product used for getting baby Grey-Banded king snakes to eat, I used it for a variety of other species. It was discontinued around 2006). He surprised me by telling me none of the breeders needed it any more as they had learned to scent mark the snake eggs before they hatched, and then mark prey items with the same scent and this got them to target those items.

The story goes that if you mark unhatched snake eggs with a particular scent (say, strawberry extract) in the last few weeks before hatching, the baby snakes will target prey that has also been marked with the same scent (again, strawberry extract, the scent can be anything that crosses the permeable egg membrane though).

This may actually not as crazy as one might think. We know chemicals can cross the egg membranes (for example if you mark _Rhabdophis_ eggs with toad poisons/ bufodienolides, the babies hatch out poisonous; the same thing happens in nature with mother _Rhabdophis_ specifically going after toads during pregnancy so that she can confer their poison to her unborn babies). So chemicals certainly can pass across the membrane; why the neonates would be more likely to consider objects marked with these scents more palatable I do not know, but it is something I am keen to trial.


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## Thrasops

arwen_7 said:


> Isn't some mythical monster meant to hatch from a chicken sitting on snake eggs? What crazy monster will come of a mouse sitting on snake eggs? 😁
> 
> Good luck with it, sounds like it would make life easier if they could start on mice.


Basilisks were supposedly born when roosters incubated snake eggs, in Middle European mythology.
Cockatrices were hatched from the egg of a rooster that was incubated by a snake or toad.
There is some synonymy between these two mythological monsters though; in _De naturis rerum _a toad incubating the egg of a rooster would result in a basilisk.


----------



## MrsTim

Hmm...egg of a rooster should be impossible, except...my friend has a chicken that for a long time looked like a rooster, behaved like a rooster, and her other roosters treat it as a rooster and never attempt to mate with it....but it laid eggs. Just need to find a toad now, and ...

On a serious note now...that king rat snake is stunning, and it has a very " intelligent " look about it, bet it's an interesting snake to have.


----------



## Swindinian

Thrasops said:


> So actually it is something far more esoteric and interesting than that!
> 
> I was asking Jon Coote (who used to work with T-Rex) why the 'Lizard Maker' product was discontinued all those years ago (as I used to use it a lot, it was a lizard scent product used for getting baby Grey-Banded king snakes to eat, I used it for a variety of other species. It was discontinued around 2006). He surprised me by telling me none of the breeders needed it any more as they had learned to scent mark the snake eggs before they hatched, and then mark prey items with the same scent and this got them to target those items.
> 
> The story goes that if you mark unhatched snake eggs with a particular scent (say, strawberry extract) in the last few weeks before hatching, the baby snakes will target prey that has also been marked with the same scent (again, strawberry extract, the scent can be anything that crosses the permeable egg membrane though).
> 
> This may actually not as crazy as one might think. We know chemicals can cross the egg membranes (for example if you mark _Rhabdophis_ eggs with toad poisons/ bufodienolides, the babies hatch out poisonous; the same thing happens in nature with mother _Rhabdophis_ specifically going after toads during pregnancy so that she can confer their poison to her unborn babies). So chemicals certainly can pass across the membrane; why the neonates would be more likely to consider objects marked with these scents more palatable I do not know, but it is something I am keen to trial.


Ok no excuses this time, as I had a couple of cuppas and a long dog walk, but am still not following the practical or theoretical basis of this approach? 🤷🏻‍♂️🤯
I have no difficulty with trans barrier crossing of egg skin or even animal skin with bio chemicals, that seems feasible.
What I don’t understand is the what or the why?

Would you rub a thawed rodent on the snake egg, so they are familiar with rodent pheromones before they have hatched?
Is it being familiar with the scent that reduces the fear, and encourages more predatory instincts?

Why would they not try to consume each other?


----------



## ian14

MrsTim said:


> Hmm...egg of a rooster should be impossible, except...my friend has a chicken that for a long time looked like a rooster, behaved like a rooster, and her other roosters treat it as a rooster and never attempt to mate with it....but it laid eggs. Just need to find a toad now, and ...
> 
> On a serious note now...that king rat snake is stunning, and it has a very " intelligent " look about it, bet it's an interesting snake to have.


King rats snakes are, how can I best put this, a "challenge". Fine one minute, ready to rip you apart the next. Dead easy to keep but you have got to have your wits about you. I had mine for about a year, I think, but sold it to someone looking to breed them. At the time I had mine they were very rarely seen in the UK, so I was happy to pass it on to someone able to pair it (I can't remember if mine was male or female but in any case, it went to someone who had another of the opposite sex). I picked mine up when I bought my aesculapians, more as a mercy buy than anything else.


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## Thrasops

Swindinian said:


> Ok no excuses this time, as I had a couple of cuppas and a long dog walk, but am still not following the practical or theoretical basis of this approach? 🤷🏻‍♂️🤯
> I have no difficulty with trans barrier crossing of egg skin or even animal skin with bio chemicals, that seems feasible.
> What I don’t understand is the what or the why?
> 
> Would you rub a thawed rodent on the snake egg, so they are familiar with rodent pheromones before they have hatched?
> Is it being familiar with the scent that reduces the fear, and encourages more predatory instincts?
> 
> Why would they not try to consume each other?


If you can get your hands on _The Herptile_ 43:4 from Dec 2018, Jon Coote wrote an article on it entitled 'Embryonic training - an unexploited husbandry tool?' that explains the concept well. He also wrote on the subject in_ Vivarium_:

Coote, J. 1999. Scenting eggs and embryonic learning. _Vivarium_ 11, No. 1. pp 24 and 41.


Basically it draws on a series of experiments where neonatal chickens, crocodiles and frogs that were exposed to garlic or strawberry extracts whilst still in-ovum showed preferences for prey marked with those scents.

Hepper, Peter. "Adaptive fetal learning-prenatal exposure to garlic affects postnatal preferences." _Animal Behaviour_ 36 (1988): 935-936.

Hepper, Peter G., and Bruce Waldman. "Embryonic olfactory learning in frogs." _The Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology Section B_ 44.3-4b (1992): 179-197.

Sneddon, H., R. Hadden, and P. G. Hepper. "Chemosensory learning in the chicken embryo." _Physiology & Behavior_ 64.2 (1998): 133-139.

Sneddon, Helga, P. G. Hepper, and C. Manolis. "Embryonic chemosensory learning in the saltwater crocodile, Crocodylus porosus." _Crocodilian Biology & evolution_. Surrey Beatty & Sons, 2000. 378-382.

Sneddon, Helga, P. G. Hepper, and C. Manolis. "A pre-hatch method for influencing the diet eaten after hatching in the Saltwater crocodile, crocodylus porosus." _Crocodiles_. Species Survival Commission of the IUCN, 1998. 50-60.



It is not something I have ever tried myself, but hell if it will make baby Coachwhips and _Psammophis_ and _Chrysopelea_ easier to get feeding I definitely am game to give it a go!


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## Thrasops

MrsTim said:


> On a serious note now...that king rat snake is stunning, and it has a very " intelligent " look about it, bet it's an interesting snake to have.





ian14 said:


> King rats snakes are, how can I best put this, a "challenge". Fine one minute, ready to rip you apart the next. Dead easy to keep but you have got to have your wits about you. I had mine for about a year, I think, but sold it to someone looking to breed them. At the time I had mine they were very rarely seen in the UK, so I was happy to pass it on to someone able to pair it (I can't remember if mine was male or female but in any case, it went to someone who had another of the opposite sex). I picked mine up when I bought my aesculapians, more as a mercy buy than anything else.


Yes.

I find King rats... well I cannot think of better words than 'devious' and 'cheeky.'

Very charismatic snakes that start off REALLY shy and take absolutely ages to trust you; whenever I am in the room they watch me from cover and I can see their heads poking out from foliage or their hide boxes just keeping an eye on me. If they know you have food, some will come rushing over to get it and then retreat. But otherwise they are completely unlike most other rat snakes, which tend to be docile and tractable and active... when I am out of the room I know they move around a LOT and if I hide at the doorway and peer around I can watch them climbing all over things. But if they see me they stop and stare and quietly retreat to cover.

Even once you have earned their trust and they stop hiding in your presence, they are always defensive of their space and do not like to be bothered (unless you have food). Usually they will just move away if you disturb them but if you annoy them too much they can be very irritable, hissing and snarling at you (they can curl their lips to snarl like _Pituophis_ and _Spalerosophis) _and snapping if you touch them or get too close.

Their large size and the fact they eat other snakes makes them a hassle as it is unwise to cohabit them (not impossible but I would not try it) and they need a large amount of space. When I rehomed the latest animal I was expecting a six or seven footer like some of my others and had a 6x3 ready for it, and was going to quarantine it in a large tub.

What I got was a snake that may be almost ten feet long and with coils as thick as my wrist - there was no way it could go in a tub even temporarily so I had to shove it into a 4x2 just for quarantine and its length easily extends along one side, the width and then the other side. So even a 6x3x3 looks too small for it when it is actually not hiding and out exploring.

Ideally I will be able to just give it a whole shed in the future. If not I may do a wall exhibit with my _Spilotes_ in an 8x3x5 on top and the big King in an 8x3x3 at the bottom, but this will depend on how much space I have at my new house.

Very much a 'look don't touch' species but also WELL deserving of the name 'King of the Rat snakes.'


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## Thrasops

Since we are discussing them and I have my computer on, and most of my old photos disappeared, here are some more pics of my other King rat snakes.










Demonstrating that 'snarl' I mentioned.



















This animal can only be described as 'high yellow,' I really lucked out with it as I got it from Crystal Palace around 2011 when it was still a baby and in drab juvenile colours and it sure was a late bloomer. I paid just £80 for it.





















































See? Not ALL my snakes are 'dull and brown.' 

This photo was the cover image for one of the King rat snake groups on Facebook for some time. Shows just how beautiful this species can be.


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## Thrasops

And because it is super interesting, here are photos from 2011 onwards showing the ontogenetic change in this species.
From a relative 'ugly duckling' to genuine beauty.

Babies




























Juveniles


































Subadult


























One thing I have noticed is there seems to be quite a lot of variation of exactly when and at what size the change happens, and how long it takes. King rat snakes have a big range, from just north of Beijing (I caught one in Huairou in 2018), down through eastern and southern China to Taiwan and northern Vietnam (and invasive on Hong Kong), east to Japan - and they have a number of pattern variants and subspecies.

So I had a fully transformed, bright yellow king rat snake at three or four feet long, and another animal somewhat larger and chunkier than this that still had its juvenile pattern.


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## ian14

Mine was similar, but had a lot more black colouring.
The best I can describe is high quality Jungle Carpet.


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## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> Yes.
> 
> I find King rats... well I cannot think of better words than 'devious' and 'cheeky.'


The word you are trying to think of is dickheads, they are dickheads 😂 

We had them for a bit, but not for me, I don't mind an aggressive snake but the musk is just too much, and I keep Cuban boas.


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## ian14

LiasisUK said:


> The word you are trying to think of is dickheads, they are dickheads 😂
> 
> We had them for a bit, but not for me, I don't mind an aggressive snake but the musk is just too much, and I keep Cuban boas.


😅😅


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## Thrasops

I got my original pair of Four-Lined snakes (_Elaphe quatuorlineata_) from Stuart Taylor on here in 2012 and I could not resist the chance to bolster them recently with this male from Chaz at Snakes n Adders. Came in immaculate condition, feeding well and perfectly packaged. A credit to the shop as usual. 


























I do love the juvenile coloration of this species, it is almost a shame they undergo the ontogenetic change and become uniform brown animals with four dorsal stripes. Photo of one of my older animals for comparison (I just really like the pic):










At the same time I also got this really lovely pair of Leopard snakes (_Zamenis situla_). I have kept this species before in the past and always had it in my mind to keep them again but never seemed to get around to it, but found these beautiful, clean spotted animals too pretty to pass up.


























As a herper I have encountered both species in the wild, especially on mainland Greece and on Corfu and it is something of a running joke that I have actually managed to find more Leopard snakes than Four-Lined snakes; the latter _usually _being more common and the former being highly prized herping finds. (I've always had good luck finding Leopards either on quiet roads at night or on dry stone walls in summer).

Looking forward to getting them quarantined and into decorative enclosures. I have a nice big pile of slate paving stones to use in vivs.


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## Swindinian

Thanks for sharing Francis 😁👏👏👏
Leopard rat snakes were one of my favourite as a kid. Beautiful creatures.
Only got to see one in the flesh in 2020, but it certainly met expectations 😁
I prefer the patched to the striped. Ironically I prefer Tessera corns to normal corns, but haven’t twigged why?

I actually thought your juvenile king rat looked superb before the colour change, very prominent scale plates on the head etc, although the vibrant yellow/black is a favourite.

Andy F


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## arwen_7

I love the Leopard snakes. Very pretty !


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## Thrasops

First clutch of Coachwhip eggs for the season currently being laid as I type this. From Wyatt x Maeve pairing. Have been intentionally leaving them well alone the last week (since the female refused a meal - I have learned the ONLY time healthy Coachwhips refuse a meal is just before they are due to lay. They shed and lay straight after). Nevertheless as per usual she completely ignored the nice cosy lay box I provided and started depositing eggs as I was watering _Spilotes_ in the viv above.

Coachwhips hide the fact they are gravid remarkably well but when finished laying look completely deflated and this girl will need much food in the coming weeks (every 2-3 days) to stand any chance of putting that weight back on.

I have two, possibly three female Coachwhips gravid this season; Maeve (this pale one), Dolores (the pretty red one) and possibly Bonus (brown female).


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## Thrasops

Eight eggs in this clutch from Maeve. All look and feel good. Average length 54mm, average width 22mm.
With luck if these hatch they will be going to Drayton Manor Park reptile house (before people start PM'ing me)


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## Thrasops

Second Coachwhip clutch being laid now, this one by Dolores (the prettiest red female). Looks like only four eggs in her though. Two slugs, two _immense_ good eggs. 65mm long (left) compared to Maeve's 54mm average eggs (right). Interesting as Dolores is my smallest female, 50% smaller than Maeve. But I bet they will be gorgeous!












This is Dolores, the snake in question. Would be chuffed if the babies end up like her... and the father Wyatt is blood red in colour. So good genes I hope!


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## arwen_7

She is indeed gorgeous! 😍 Good luck with the eggs


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## Thrasops

It strikes me that with all my old photos disappeared from the various threads, these pics are no longer there either so sharing them again here to display my entire group of Western Coachwhips. 

These first two were sourced in the UK; 'Indiana Jones' (my largest animal at seven feet) from user Reptileross on here in 2013 and 'Meep' from Preloved a year or so later. 'Meep' sadly died of fibrosarcoma along intestinal tract in 2018 after years of battling ill health due to the absolutely abysmal conditions he was kept in before I got him. But that animal cemented my love for the species.











I next imported six animals from the US with the help of Marie Kyriacou and Melissa Baer. 'Lubbock' died in 2020 of undetermined causes, necropsy did not turn up anything but it is presumed he was old when collected.











And in 2021 I rehomed the last two animals from Marie, which were the really attractive specimens.










The two losses leave me with eight adult animals plus several juveniles I am growing on from prior breedings. I feel I am still working out reproduction in this species as so far fertility rate has been low. Here's hoping for a better year!


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## arwen_7

I'm not sure if it's just the light but there seems to be a great variation in their colour shades, even in the less red ones. 
Lovely snakes 👍


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## Thrasops

arwen_7 said:


> I'm not sure if it's just the light but there seems to be a great variation in their colour shades, even in the less red ones.
> Lovely snakes 👍


There is quite a bit of variation! In fact when Ortenburger described the subspecies in 1928, he documented three colour/ pattern types of this subspecies (present in all populations) and I have all three in my group.

I. “A very light brown ground colour with no indication of a pattern.” (Dillinger, Indiana Jones, Meep)

II. “The same general light brown ground colour with numerous narrow, darker cross bands, which extend for a considerable portion of the body length.” (Oakley, Armistice, Maeve)

III. “Few wide, dark cross bands (ten to fifteen scales in width) on either a light brown or a dark brown ground colour.” (Dolores, Wyatt)

I actually really love that everything from the binomial name to the descriptions of the pattern and colour in the literature depict the animal so vividly:

‘_The dorsal is Dragon’s-blood Red on the nape grading to Light Coral Red posteriorly. The dark crossbones on the neck are near Liver Brown. The venter is Light Coral Red. The spots on the ventral surface of the neck are Dragon’s-blood Red, the remaining spots are yellowish cream. The top of the head is near Hay’s Russet (reddish brown). The anterior edge of each dorsal head scale is lighter (pink). The side of the head is reddish brown and the temporals are outlined with pink. A cream spot is present on the upper preocular. The chin is white with mustard yellow and reddish orange blotching._’ - Robert Stabler, 1967


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## arwen_7

That is quiet the description there! Robert definitly had a way with describing colours.


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## Thrasops

A live-born baby _Oocatochus rufodorsatus_ (Red backed rat snake) having just shed its skin.


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## Swindinian

‘Chinese garter snake’? First time ever clocking this species. so live bearers? Are they easy to get onto rodents?


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## Thrasops

Swindinian said:


> ‘Chinese garter snake’? First time ever clocking this species. so live bearers? Are they easy to get onto rodents?


Yep, they have been called that. Very odd rat snakes, the only live bearers in the family.

I have found a few in the wild around Jinan, China; only ever seen one actually in water although they are always near it in my experience.

My adults are ravenous eaters and will eat anything - frog legs, fish, mice, earthworms. The babies usually start on guppies and chopped (wriggling) worms.

This used to be a moderately common and always overlooked species in the hobby available very cheap but always as wild caught. Sadly they have largely disappeared, I got mine from Hamm in 2017 and have not seen any for sale since. The only other person in the world I know that is currently breeding this species is Sergey Ryabov in Russia, although I know Kevin Saunders got some babies from him; and Darrell Raw, Chris Williams and a couple of others have babies from my pair from previous breedings.


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## Thrasops

Two of my three female Twin-Spotted rat snakes (_Elaphe bimaculata_) are gravid, have shed in the last few days and have been cruising around their enclosures investigating their laying boxes and hiding places. They look ready to pop!


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## Thrasops

And home... jut got back from a two week trip back home to Gibraltar to celebrate my birthday.

All animals are well.

Coachwhip eggs look good and still cooking.

I had three rat snakes popping with eggs that I had HOPED would lay before I left but did not; one Japanese rat and two Twin-Spotted rat snakes (which I posted earlier in this thread).

As they did not lay I decided to stick them into laying boxes for the duration of my trip.

The Japanese rat laid a clutch of six good eggs that are just fine.










One Twin-Spotted rat laid a good clutch of seven; one slug, six good that look SLIGHTLY dried out but should be fine.










Sadly the other Twin-Spotted rat laid a clutch of five that have wasted. The snake dug down to the heat mat leaving the eggs on the warm side without any vermiculite around them and they toasted. Ah well, two out of three isn't bad. Was just bad timing. Does seem that using coco coir as substrate is better for the eggs (I usually incubate by suspending them in tights above water).










I will make a thread on my trip as plenty of herps seen.


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## Thrasops

Continues to be a pretty decent year for clutches. Just collected these _Madagascaophis colubrinus_ eggs.
I guess now I am going to have to buy a couple of the nice golden animals currently available (mine are all silvers).


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## Thrasops

One of my baby Leopard snakes (_Zamenis situla_), cleared quarantine with flying colours so I have moved them into small Exo Terra vivs now. Doing great and growing like weeds.


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## Thrasops

A 2020 holdback Twin-spotted rat snake (_Elaphe bimaculata_) from my first breeding of the species. I kept this one as it has no red pigment and is very yellow. I just thought it looked cool. I have found these babies much less shy than the parents were and perfectly willing to tong feed right in the open instead of eating when I leave the room.

There are three morphotypes of this species, all mine are type III which have lovely red dumb-bell markings upon a faun or yellow background.


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## Thrasops

“Grrrrrowl. Leave the rat and go, and nobody gets hurt…”










_Elaphe carinata_ (King rat snake) is one species that can curl back its 'lips' when it wishes to announce its displeasure. This is a trait shared by some other genera such as Diadem snakes (_Spalerosophis_) and Bull/ Gopher snakes (_Pituophis_).


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## Thrasops

I was going through one of my old camera memory sticks the other day looking for some photos for an upcoming book on Chinese snakes a friend is currently working on. I came across a number of images I had never shared from 2019 that I had forgotten about.

Sadly the images on the Wuyishan trip thread I posted on here from that time disappeared so I will stick them up here instead. One day I may go back and start re-uploading the images for those trips.

These were taken in Wuyishan in September 2019.

First of all some Yellow-spotted keelbacks (_Fowlea flavipunctatus_) taken at Xiaomei Tea Village. These snakes were formerly in the genus _Xenochrophis_. Looking back at my facebook at the time, I posted 'you look all day for one, then two come along at the same time.' But there are actually THREE snakes in one of these pics! I had gone completely unaware of the third animal (top right), it must have submerged after the first shot.


















Here is a shot from the habitat.










Next some images of two _Ptyas korros_ (Indo-chinese racer) I was fortunate enough to get decent photos of. This species is insanely fast and active in the heat of the day. Usually all you see of them is a blur blasting off at the speed of light into the undergrowth. The first three images were taken from the (first floor) balcony of one of the hotels we stayed at, Wuyi Mountain Villa, as it moved along a hedgerow beneath us one morning.


























The next animal was seen on the climb up to Tian You peak, beside a bridge. These two animals gave me by far the best views of the species in the wild I have yet seen. They are fairly common snakes in Southern China and Hong Kong but as stated before - usually all you see of them is their tail as they crash into the bushes. Although you can also sometimes see them sleeping up in the trees at night (they have really bright yellow bellies). I keep this species as does Alasdair McMilan (50%man50%biscuit on RFUK), who has bred them for several years. So it was really nice to watch some in the wild.


























And a shot of what the habitat at Tian You Peak is like. 

That was an eventful and rather emotional day - a very long and arduous hike (I killed my legs); the discovery of a dead Chinese giant salamander (_Andrias davidianus_) - a super endangered amphibian I desperately wish to see alive in the wild; several road-killed snakes including green tree vipers (_Trimeresurus stejnegeri_), Buff-striped keelback (_Amphiesma stolatum_) and habu (_Protobothrops mucrosquamatus_); several LIVE snakes (including the _Ptyas korros_ above and a Diamond-backed water snake, _Sinonatrix aequifasciata_); a rare skink that was a new record for the area (_Ateuchosaurus chinensis_) and several tree frogs (_Rhacophorus spp_) that had several Chinese herpers stumped and might have been an undescribed species.


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## Thrasops

Some more new images from that trip.

A beautiful Chinese flying frog (_Rhacophorus dennysi_), by far the most common anuran at that locality. These tree frogs are HUGE, as large as our Common frogs. Very impressive and beautiful animals.










Random butterfly, one of many cool ones we saw.










One of the grey shrikes, perhaps Chinese grey shrike (_Lanius sphenocercus_)










River habitat at Wuyishan. Every day we would cross the wide bridge from the city area to the wilder parts. Mostly tea plantations but also secondary forest and some more pristine habitats.


















A mammal we got the opportunity to watch for about 15 minutes that had me stumped at the time. It is a Chinese ferret badger, _Melogale moschata_.










Plumbeous Water Redstarts, _Phoenicurus fuliginosus. _I really wish I was a better photographer, there are so many birds on these trips that I never get to identify at the time, better photos would really help me get them ID'd.


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## spigotbush

those ptyas always captivate me whenever i see pics of them. would love to see some of that species in the flesh one day. they always seem so switched on. when i see them in videos they always look very calculating and deliberate, just at 1000mph. like they know they can check you out too because they know they can out-manoeuvre you.

i do love the understated snakes, not that the bright and colourful ones arent beautiful. the plainer ones just always seem to have something about them. its like they always have something else going on.


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## Thrasops

spigotbush said:


> those ptyas always captivate me whenever i see pics of them. would love to see some of that species in the flesh one day. they always seem so switched on. when i see them in videos they always look very calculating and deliberate, just at 1000mph. like they know they can check you out too because they know they can out-manoeuvre you.
> 
> i do love the understated snakes, not that the bright and colourful ones arent beautiful. the plainer ones just always seem to have something about them. its like they always have something else going on.


It's OK, you can say 'dull brown snakes' lol. I came to terms with it long ago. Some people like their brightly coloured tropical species, their Emerald tree boas and so on (and those are certainly cool too)... but I too get more excited at the drab little brown and grey species.

_Ptyas korros_ is really cool as at first glance they do look just plain brown or grey:










But I have always been a sucker for alert snakes with big eyes - sight hunters. They just tend to be far more interesting than other snakes in terms of activity and behaviour.










And as you look more closely you start to discern that far from being just 'dull brown snakes' they have hints of other colours along their body. For example almost bluish at the midsection:










And the posterior part of the snake is almost a tangerine colour:


















If you get a glimpse of the belly you see a flash of shocking canary-yellow. In fact this might be a warning colour as wild specimens rear up and display the belly when cornered.


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## spigotbush

Thrasops said:


> It's OK, you can say 'dull brown snakes' lol. I came to terms with it long ago.


yeah, its like the "little brown bird" thing in birdwatcher circles. always thought its a shame though. they may not have the colours but they often have such amazingly intricate patterns. i'll never forget the surprise the first time i caught a slow worm and saw the marbling in their scales up close. even the ones that look dull tend to get more impressive the closer you look. like the posterior scales on that ptyas in the pics, that shading looks like it was painted on.

i totally agree there is definitely something about sight hunters. i wish i could get involved with some of that type but i never feel like i could offer a good enough enclosure. if i lived somewhere that outdoors was more of an option then i would do it in a heartbeat. every time i read up on one i always feel like i want to give them a really long and heavily planted enclosure. which is just impractical for me right now. maybe one day though.


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## Thrasops

*WARNING Images of dead snake embryo.* Just so those who don't want to see them do not have to.
















Part of any hobby dealing with animals is dealing with mistakes or problems that inevitably crop up from time to time. And the responsible thing to do is share them so others can benefit, especially with species that are not often bred in captivity so we can hone down parameters. Plus sometimes they are kind of interesting too (I remember Su Knight sharing some really squeamish but intriguing photos of Dione's rat snakes that had deformed and died _in ovo_).

I am currently incubating my fourth and fifth clutches of Western Coachwhip eggs. Historically I have had limited success hatching babies from clutches of this species - usually I get limited clutch fertility with around 50% of clutches being infertile and sometimes more.

The first year (2017) I put this down to the upheaval of the snakes being imported and moved between various peoples' houses as they got to me.

The second year (2019) I assumed perhaps my incubation methods were incorrect (I was using my usual 'tights over water' method at around 28C, which serves me well for rat snakes and other species). Perhaps temperature too high or too much humidity.

This year I decided to change things up and I have tried incubating the eggs on vermiculite at variable temperatures ranging from 25C to 28C. And the eggs for the most part seem to be doing much better. However I did notice one obviously died late in development (day 59) so I decided to dissect it.

The embryo is obviously well developed but has some obvious skinks and obvious deformities, parts of itself fused. 


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content












































A sad result but interesting so thought I would share images here.
Still have the rest of the clutch seemingly doing well though so fingers crossed in a few days I shall have some more baby Coachwhips.


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## Thrasops

With the sad result above I am all the more happy to see my Twin-Spotted rat snakes (_Elaphe bimaculata_) have started hatching. One baby out already, ironically the smallest egg. These will be going to Chaz at Snakes n Adders if anybody wants them.


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## ian14

Gutted I had to sell my two pairs.
Gorgeous snakes, so nice to see them being bred again.


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## LiasisUK

Congrats on the bimaculata babies!

I am sorry to hear about the coachwhip. Hopefully the others all do better!
From my experience kinking like that is often the result of too much temperature fluctuation. I have no experience with coachwhips, but personally I would try a more fixed temperature and based upon your other comments, at a temperature of 27c +/-0.5c. OR could just be because of heat spikes caused by the weird heat waves we've had this year.
Just my 2 cents, not that you asked 😅


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## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> Congrats on the bimaculata babies!
> 
> I am sorry to hear about the coachwhip. Hopefully the others all do better!
> From my experience kinking like that is often the result of too much temperature fluctuation. I have no experience with coachwhips, but personally I would try a more fixed temperature and based upon your other comments, at a temperature of 27c +/-0.5c. OR could just be because of heat spikes caused by the weird heat waves we've had this year.
> Just my 2 cents, not that you asked 😅


Could well be that, although a lot of temperate Colubrid eggs do well with fluctuating temperatures; often it is constant high temperatures that cause this sort of thing (I did the same incubation method for the Bimacs and Climacs this year, and constant temps for the _Madagascarophis_). But it is really too early to see what is right for Coachwhips, I feel I have not 'figured them out' yet when it comes to incubation. I had a hunch I had been incubating them too high in previous years after reading about _Drymarchon_ eggs faring best when incubated at 25C so on a whim decided to vary temps. I may try constant lower temps next season for them. But thanks for the input, it is appreciated.


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## StuG

Thrasops said:


> *WARNING Images of dead snake embryo.* Just so those who don't want to see them do not have to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part of any hobby dealing with animals is dealing with mistakes or problems that inevitably crop up from time to time. And the responsible thing to do is share them so others can benefit, especially with species that are not often bred in captivity so we can hone down parameters. Plus sometimes they are kind of interesting too (I remember Su Knight sharing some really squeamish but intriguing photos of Dione's rat snakes that had deformed and died _in ovo_).
> 
> I am currently incubating my fourth and fifth clutches of Western Coachwhip eggs. Historically I have had limited success hatching babies from clutches of this species - usually I get limited clutch fertility with around 50% of clutches being infertile and sometimes more.
> 
> The first year (2017) I put this down to the upheaval of the snakes being imported and moved between various peoples' houses as they got to me.
> 
> The second year (2019) I assumed perhaps my incubation methods were incorrect (I was using my usual 'tights over water' method at around 28C, which serves me well for rat snakes and other species). Perhaps temperature too high or too much humidity.
> 
> This year I decided to change things up and I have tried incubating the eggs on vermiculite at variable temperatures ranging from 25C to 28C. And the eggs for the most part seem to be doing much better. However I did notice one obviously died late in development (day 59) so I decided to dissect it.
> 
> The embryo is obviously well developed but has some obvious skinks and obvious deformities, parts of itself fused.
> 
> View attachment 365171
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> A sad result but interesting so thought I would share images here.
> Still have the rest of the clutch seemingly doing well though so fingers crossed in a few days I shall have some more baby Coachwhips.


Unfortunate but these things happen. I’m sure it’s possible but would you have any way of recording temperature fluctuations during incubation?


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## Thrasops

StuG said:


> Unfortunate but these things happen. I’m sure it’s possible but would you have any way of recording temperature fluctuations during incubation?


Probably with a min/max thermometer but I did not really think of it. I measure them every so often with my temp gun but I do rely on the day/night thermostat and I was on holiday a fortnight so there could well have been a spike.


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## StuG

Thrasops said:


> Probably with a min/max thermometer but I did not really think of it. I measure them every so often with my temp gun but I do rely on the day/night thermostat and I was on holiday a fortnight so there could well have been a spike.


might be interesting for future clutches though and help you figure out what’s going on. I’ve seen royal clutches reach 94/95 degrees as the day has warmed up in summer and they’ve been fine but sudden spikes cause havoc and similar to the pics posted


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## LiasisUK

We use data loggers that track the temperature over a 24 hour period. They connect via bluetooth to a free app on your phone. You can set alerts for too high and low temps as well (though of course being bluetooth you do have to be in range to receive a 'live' alert). We also use them to monitor temps during brumation. 

They also track humidity. 

Amazon do them here


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## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> We use data loggers that track the temperature over a 24 hour period. They connect via bluetooth to a free app on your phone. You can set alerts for too high and low temps as well (though of course being bluetooth you do have to be in range to receive a 'live' alert). We also use them to monitor temps during brumation.
> 
> They also track humidity.
> 
> Amazon do them here


Awesome will get some of those, thanks.


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## Thrasops

Just got home from Thor: Love and Thunder to find the first of this year's Japanese rat snakes (_Elaphe climacophora_) hatching. Again, any surplus I have will go to Chaz at Snakes n Adders for anybody interested.

The dam for this particular clutch was bred by Charlotte Wilford (of AC Snakes) and given to me in 2015. Sire was one of my own boys from 2011. I do not usually incubate Japanese rat snake eggs but a few people have told me they are getting rarer again so I thought I would do my bit to keep some out there this year


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## Thrasops

FINALLY on day 72 the Western Coachwhips start hatching.


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## LiasisUK

Nice, congrats Francis


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## Swindinian

LiasisUK said:


> We use data loggers that track the temperature over a 24 hour period. They connect via bluetooth to a free app on your phone. You can set alerts for too high and low temps as well (though of course being bluetooth you do have to be in range to receive a 'live' alert). We also use them to monitor temps during brumation.
> 
> They also track humidity.
> 
> Amazon do them here


Thanks for the tip. 
I bought a couple to trial, for future egg incubation (not for a few years)
I really didn’t like the instructions ( in English but not well translated), but I presume once you download the app, it’ll be pretty intuitive.
I would be sceptical about the accuracy rH of the hygrometer, based on the cost, but the temp logging will be most useful.


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## LiasisUK

I don't think I even looked at the instructions to be honest haha

Yes I mainly use it for the temps, I don't really record humidity for anything, people get far too flustered about it in all honesty. With eggs you can tell by checking them regularly if they need more/less water.


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## Thrasops

The baby Coachwhips are doing well. Incredibly cute but also wild as hell and very, very fast.
About half are now assist feeding well on quartered pinks - they will strike at what comes near them so it is a case of getting them on a flat surface, gently pinning them with one hand at mid body and then sticking the piece of prey in front of their faces until they snap at it. Then letting it go and hoping they swallow it down instead of spit it out. So far they will not take whole pinks (they will chew on them and then spit them out) but gulp down legs, tails and heads).

Just look at those 'ickle faces though! Well worth the effort!


























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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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## Thrasops

I also recently had some Corn snakes hatch out. These were sired by a 'normal' male I rehomed from David Willis a few years back and a "creamiscle" female I took from Darrell Raw when he left the country.

I have a fair few corn snakes now, including a beautiful pair gifted to me around 2012 by Layla van Deen (unsure if people remember her, she used to post a lot in CB UK). Generally I do not bother breeding them as there is market saturation but I do try to get a few clutches a year to feed to my _Oligodon_. This time I decided to keep back five out of this clutch as somebody had asked me for some.










Welcome to the world, ya wee pink mutant.


































Of the five I got two pink ones and three normals.

One of them has even made it onto the teaser poster for next years joint AHH/ BHS meet at Drayton Manor!
This year's one was absolutely epic, and I know we have already got the beginnings of an amazing lineup for the next one.


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## spigotbush

those coachwhips are beautiful. the shading on the head scales makes it look like it was drawn on. i adore that about the "dull brown snakes" as you put it, the colours are more than compensated by detail in the scales.

oddly, the 4th photo had a "18+ sensitive content" gate on it. no idea why, the only difference is that it has a foot in it. perhaps the forum software has a thing about socks.


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## Thrasops

Just a little update on some of the recent babies, most are feeding like champs.

Starting with the Coachwhips - about half are still refusing anything but pinkie parts but strike vigorously and if I am careful will swallow what they bite. A couple have now stopped spitting out whole pinkies and are savaging those too.


















The Twin-Spotted rat snakes were all good feeders from the beginning, in fact they are all now about to undergo their second shed.










The Japanese rat snakes also are, as ever, easy peasy and eating large pinks vigorously although are a bit younger than the Bimacs so have not started their second shed yet. Some can even manage small fuzzies already.










And of course the little mutant Corn snakes prove why the species is the number one pet species, every one took food from the moment they first shed.










































The time is coming when I will pick out anything I decide to keep for myself (must say I am already tempted by some of the Twin-Spotted rat snakes and even Japanese rat snakes) and get them from their hatching tubs into exo terras, then the rest will be going to Chaz at Snakes n Adders.


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## Thrasops

Part of keeping any pet is saying goodbye. From the moment you bring them home and start your mutual journey together, that fateful day starts closing in upon you from the other direction.
Today I said goodbye to one of my oldest snakes, a Russian rat snake (_Elaphe schrenckii_) I purchased around 1994. It was already a large subadult when I got it so I guess it was 30-31 years old.

Since 2018 I've lost a number of really iconic old snakes that defined my collection - my big male _Thrasops jacksonii_; the 'grumpy green meanie' (_Boiga cyanea_) at age 24; Meep the Coachwhip to cancer; my oldest female Dione's rat snake at age 26 - and, sadly, as time moves on I expect to begin losing more as they reach the ends of their long lifespans. But this old gentleman rat snake was one of the OGs, a constant in a collection that has had many changing faces over those three decades. Animals came and went but that black and yellow gentleman was always there.

I've been saying that he might pass on for the last three winters, and the last three winters he has surprised me and made it through. So I thought I was prepared. Today though I awoke to find he had finally let go. I did not cool him this year, and fed him some rat chubs last week, so I like to think he was at least comfortable.

The more you hurt at the parting, the more it proves the depth of your bond. But sorrow is not the only result of the parting. The pleasure and happiness they bring over the years does not just disappear. Twenty eight years under my care. Three decades of life. You will be missed, old boy. It was a privilege. You were, as humans younger than you say these days, a good snek. x

Here are the oldest photos I could find of him (literal printed photos, pre-digital cameras) as a young snake.


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## spigotbush

my sympathies, its always miserable when these things happen. at least you had the honour of knowing him. 

i am in a similar situation with my dog. i have been saying all year that she is not going to make it much further and every morning the first thing i do is check if she is still here. i know its inevitable, and i would not begrudge her letting go at all, doesnt make it nice. as you say though, its a privilege to spend our lives living with our animals and even thought its a sad end its small price.


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## Thrasops

spigotbush said:


> my sympathies, its always miserable when these things happen. at least you had the honour of knowing him.
> 
> i am in a similar situation with my dog. i have been saying all year that she is not going to make it much further and every morning the first thing i do is check if she is still here. i know its inevitable, and i would not begrudge her letting go at all, doesnt make it nice. as you say though, its a privilege to spend our lives living with our animals and even thought its a sad end its small price.


It was sadly expected but that does not make it any less hard.
Sorry to hear about your dog, use what time left with her well.


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## Thrasops

Last week I was invited to give a lecture on snake welfare at Shuttleworth College to animal care technicians, instructor technicians and lecturers on snake welfare in captivity, as part of a conference entitled 'Practical Herptile Keeping in an Education Setting.' I used the title of this thread as part of my talk!



















Other speakers included Tom Wells from Marwell Zoo and the esteemed Roman Muryn giving talks on light and heat for reptiles, Ricky Johnson (himself a lecturer now at Halesowen College) on diversity of species in zoological collections, Suzie Simpson on the Turtle Talley Project, Marie Kubiak on General Health Care, Lance Jepson on Tortoise Health Care and Calvin Allen on Frog Husbandry.

We were then shown around the off-public zoological training facility with its spanking new rainforest biome, a centre that has a self-enclosed little rainforest including lizards, dart frogs, turtles, birds and invertebrates all 'free range.'























































In all it was a really nice day and a great opportunity to meet and interact with some real movers and shakers in the field of herpetoculture, conservation and education. Marred somewhat by ongoing train strikes meaning I got lost in limbo getting to and from the event, that made the day a lot longer and more tiring than it could have been!


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## LiasisUK

Have visited quite a few colleges recently as a few of our animals produced this year have gone to them to add to their collections. Have to say; the one in your images looks excellent! I hope get a chance to pay it a visit. May have to offer them something haha.


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## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> Have visited quite a few colleges recently as a few of our animals produced this year have gone to them to add to their collections. Have to say; the one in your images looks excellent! I hope get a chance to pay it a visit. May have to offer them something haha.


The amphibian enclosures and rainforest biomes in particular were _extremely_ impressive.
Some of the snake and lizard enclosures were to be honest slightly small for my taste, but I think it is fair to say that anywhere that runs on a budget and relies on grants will always have something they wish to improve upon, that they will do over time. But I really liked the mindset there.


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## Thrasops

It's that time of year again. Most of the snakes are now down for brumation. Here is one of my elder Japanese rat snakes (_Elaphe climacophora_) from before going into the shed, demonstrating just why I like them. Among the hardiest snakes out there, intensely curious and alert and never, ever shy...*

*caution: may attempt to eat you.


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## Thrasops

The beauty of a Russian rat snake (_Elaphe schrenckii_). These were taken in September, they are all sleeping for the winter now. But although my original animal died I still have a couple of pairs of younger generation animals (some of which were bred from the OG, others came from people such as Charlotte Wilford and Florence Butler) to continue the line.




























These sometimes get labelled 'the Poor Man's Mangrove Snake' - having kept several subspecies of Mangrove (which I found rather boring by comparison) I would wholeheartedly take a Russian rat snake over those any day of the week.

And an image of one of my females laying earlier this year I managed to snap without disturbing her. (Once again outside the nest box as per frigging usual). So although my original old gent is gone, his genes carry on. Which is a source of comfort.


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## Thrasops

My Twin-spotted rat snakes (_Elaphe bimaculata_) have been mating all week. These guys have a LONG copulation (usually 12 hours or so but occasionally 18-36 hours). So all being well I’ll have a few more clutches next year. 

Up until 2018 I was putting these into the fridge at the same time as my _Elaphe dione_, which probably accounts for why I had been unsuccessful at breeding them for so long. My friend working in Nanjing tells me they are out at this time of year breeding and sent me some pics of them from the rice fields. It seems that at least the southern localities of _E. bimaculata_ hibernate late in the year right after breeding. The females retain sperm over the winter from the previous year and lay around April/ May the following year.


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## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> The beauty of a Russian rat snake (_Elaphe schrenckii_). These were taken in September, they are all sleeping for the winter now. But although my original animal died I still have a couple of pairs of younger generation animals (some of which were bred from the OG, others came from people such as Charlotte Wilford and Florence Butler) to continue the line.
> 
> View attachment 369838
> 
> 
> View attachment 369839
> 
> 
> View attachment 369840
> 
> 
> These sometimes get labelled 'the Poor Man's Mangrove Snake' - having kept several subspecies of Mangrove (which I found rather boring by comparison) I would wholeheartedly take a Russian rat snake over those any day of the week.
> 
> And an image of one of my females laying earlier this year I managed to snap without disturbing her. (Once again outside the nest box as per frigging usual). So although my original old gent is gone, his genes carry on. Which is a source of comfort.
> 
> View attachment 369841


Def prefer Russian Rats over Boiga, Boiga are some of the most boring snakes I have ever owned, I don't understand the hype.


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## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> Def prefer Russian Rats over Boiga, Boiga are some of the most boring snakes I have ever owned, I don't understand the hype.


_Boiga irregularis_, _B. nigriceps_ and _B. cyanea_ are nice if you can tolerate their nocturnal natures. Far, far more interesting than any of the Mangroves. And I admit I'd jump at the chance to keep _B. multomaculata_ if I thought I could feed them easily (I found some in China and Hong Kong, they are beautiful). But yes they are definitely some of the most over-hyped snakes in the hobby in my not-so-humble opinion and don't come close to the satisfaction of keeping most rat snakes - and especially Russian rat snakes, which _most _people I know who keep them speak of with adoration.


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## spigotbush

LiasisUK said:


> Boiga are some of the most boring snakes I have ever owned, I don't understand the hype.


in what way? 
never kept any myself, the nocturnal thing is always off putting for me. not that its a problem, i would just miss the vast majority of their activity. is it just that they are deeply nocturnal?


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## Thrasops

spigotbush said:


> in what way?
> never kept any myself, the nocturnal thing is always off putting for me. not that its a problem, i would just miss the vast majority of their activity. is it just that they are deeply nocturnal?


With Mangroves, I found the WC reliable but annoying to acclimate in terms of amount of effort expended. Does not help they often come in atrocious condition. Captive bred babies can take ages to get feeding on rodents and do not 'fall' for the same easy tricks that other members of the genus do. They are relatively inactive and very nocturnal (mine did start coming out to bask in later years but basically just did nothing during the day other than either hide or sit barely in view with a few coils under the light). Active only at night (although I have always been a night owl so I did see them moving around now and then). Very little interaction with the keeper (far less than other _Boiga _species I had - and I had a few). They just lacked any 'personality' and mainly were either defensive to the max or just listless. They are, basically, utterly overhyped snakes.

Contrast with Russian rat snakes, which are among the more personable, hardy, curious, interactive and 'tameable' snakes out there, and which mostly are active during the day and will literally come out of their enclosures to climb onto you as adults, and there is frankly no comparison.

I will say that among _Boiga _there is some variety - _B. irregularis_ (Brown tree snake), _B. cyanea_ (Green cat-eyed snake) and _B. nigriceps_ (Black-headed tree snake) are all FAR more interesting in my opinion, easier to keep, easier to acclimatise, easier to feed as CB babies; they just lack the startling black and yellow coloration so more people ignore them, but in my opinion they more than make up for it with the relative ease of care and the fact they actually DO something._ 

B. cynodon_ (Dog-toothed cat snake) was easy to get acclimated as WC but I never got mine to breed and mine were shyer than the preceding three species. I got CB babies of these as well from a Russian breeder and I found them extremely reluctant to feed, so they were kind of mid way between Mangroves and the 'golden trio' I listed above - I still consider _B. cynodon_ much more interesting than Mangroves though.


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## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> They just lacked any 'personality' and mainly were either defensive to the max or just listless. They are, basically, utterly overhyped snakes.


Basically this, they're very very blank, for want of a better term. Very little going on with them. We had a WC pair of dendrophila dendrophila that were exceptionally shy, even at night I barely saw them, managed to get them both feeding on defrost though. Then gave the species the benefit of the doubt 'maybe these ones are just exceptionally shy as they're WC adults' and took on a group of captive hatched baby dendrophila melanota from eggs from a WC female. Got them as non-feeders, got them all feeding on their own in the end but again they were just pathetic shy boring animals. 

I have not kept but have some experience with cyanea and found them to be slightly more interesting. But yes as a whole ratsnakes have far more personality than smooth-brain Boiga


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## spigotbush

thats quite a surprise. i have only ever actually seen one in passing but from what i had seen online i would have thought them to be very reactive. do you suppose that with an extravagant enclosure (water, long high branches, vines etc) they would be more active? obviously that may be beyond the practicality of private keeping but i often wonder about things like that.

its a rough comparison to schrenkii. they are pretty remarkable in the interactivity department. when i just had my corn snake i thought it was super friendly, then i got my ruskie and the corn seems dull as hell. still lovely but very much overshadowed.


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## Thrasops

spigotbush said:


> thats quite a surprise. i have only ever actually seen one in passing but from what i had seen online i would have thought them to be very reactive. do you suppose that with an extravagant enclosure (water, long high branches, vines etc) they would be more active? obviously that may be beyond the practicality of private keeping but i often wonder about things like that.
> 
> its a rough comparison to schrenkii. they are pretty remarkable in the interactivity department. when i just had my corn snake i thought it was super friendly, then i got my ruskie and the corn seems dull as hell. still lovely but very much overshadowed.


I had them both in large tubs and in tall planted enclosures. In the tubs they were fine - some became extremely defensive (feeling cornered maybe) and once they had some confidence would actually rise up to threaten me away when I opened the boxes. In the vivs, I only ever saw them occasionally basking beneath the lights, or moving about a bit late at night. But not really interesting to observe all that much. _Boiga cyanea_ were probably the most active ones I had, but I captive bred several generations of them between 1998 and 2010 so they were a few generations removed from WC and knew me from hatching so had a different behavioural profile to the WC animals.

You are right, Russian rat snakes are at the peak of 'pet snakes' IMO. The only snakes I have that are as interactive are the Coachwhips.


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## LiasisUK

We kept the adult WC dendros in reasonable sized vertically orientated plastic vivs, with lighting, basking lamps, packed full of branches, vines and tubes along with loads of plastic plants (I don't like real ones, or it's more they don't like me). The result; same as being in a tub. Boring af. 

A couple of people I know have adult CB Boiga dendrophila melanota and when I have visited their snake rooms those animals are more visible, they bask in the open. They get much larger than the other subspecies so maybe they are more bold, we moved on the babies once they were feeding to someone who appreciated them more. I'll stick to brown pythons thanks, much more fun.


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## Swindinian

Poor boiga getting a verbal hammering 😂🤣😂🤣

I do seem to like some of the brown boids, tho I am not adverse to derpy/stupid but pretty animals. 
Such as jungle carpets 😁


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## Thrasops

Now it is winter and the bulk of my snakes are in the fridge or in the shed it is much quieter here. 
A couple of shots of one of my Dumeril's boas (_Acrantophis dumerili_) - it is the warm season in Madagascar right now so these guys are still active!


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## Zincubus

Thrasops said:


> Now it is winter and the bulk of my snakes are in the fridge or in the shed
> ]


Maybe the possible upcoming power cuts aren’t as scary as I first thought 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Thrasops

Zincubus said:


> Maybe the possible upcoming power cuts aren’t as scary as I first thought
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's definitely a benefit of hibernating most of my snakes, cannot say it is a welcome one though.


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