# My dog is NOT vicious!!!



## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

A few people have said my GSD is vicious, but she isn't. I have had dogs all my life, and I know them pretty well. People say mine is nasty because she is protective. She wont let people she doesnt know near my baby or let them in my house if my wife or me isnt there. She also went for a guy who grabbed me outside a shop, but she has never hurt anyone. All I have to do is say 'back off' and she leaves whoever she is barking/growling at. It pee's me off that she gets called nasty or vicious, when I can control her with jus a few words.


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## FoxyMumma (Jun 29, 2008)

Who has called your dog 'nasty and vicious'? is it people on the receiving end of the teeth? lol
My staffy has bared her teeth at a bloke that lunged towards my daughter in her pram before, and was called 'one of those evil and vicious dogs off the tv' :bash: she was only protecting her family and didnt actually bite anyone...


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

The problem is with everything going on with dangerous dogs people are more aware. You need to be 100% sure you dog is under full control in public. Showing teeth, growling and lunging could be seen to be aggressive and someone could report your dog as being out of control in a public area. Next thing you know you could have the dog warden turning up on your door to assess your dog. 

I know I have two dogs with issues due to being badly abused, but I make sure that my dogs and I are safe when we go out and that they are fully under control for there own sake. And I will give clear warnings to anyone approaching us who I feel may upset them and cause any reaction.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Mainly family have called her nasty, but its rare they are here, so she is just protecting. Also, a guy who just walked into my house (thinking it was still his friends house) got pinned to the floor, lol. He had no broken skin, and was not harmed.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Thats so right Martha 


I have people crossing roads when im out with my dogs even the huskies..............they have the evil wolf look :whistling2:


but thats good i would rather them do that than try pet them get knocked over by an excited huskie an then report me 


its a people against dogs world at the moment an its getting difficult for the dogs to win


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

As said by MarthaMoo, even though YOU know the dog is under control, others might not, and under the DDA a person only has to BELIEVE there is a danger to be able to make a valid complaint. However on your property it is different, so long as the dog is in an area that has no public access and there are warning signs clearly displayed. Theoretically, the man who was pinned to your floor could have probably made a complaint unless you had appropriate signage.


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## browner93 (Dec 17, 2007)

My GSD went for a asian fella last month we was on a walk on a bridle way and it was dark blue ran over to this bloke and he was unsure of him done 1 bark and this an started hitting ym dog with his backpack so my dog grabed him arm did not leav marks he is not like it normaly! only at home when people come to the door and he will let them in if we tell him shut up and he is always under control only that one time!! where i walk them every day i get people wallk on the main road because of my dogs even tho i keep them by my side and they wont go neer other people and dont care about them! i have been shouted at for having a "uncontrolible" dog when it was off the lead running about and play fighting with my other GSD their is just some idiot people both of mine would never hert my bros baby yet if u want to start fighting with my family the dog will step in and have there say!

Josh


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## georgieabc123 (Jul 17, 2008)

once i was in the park a nd a little kind must of bee about 5 ran up to my gsd x rotti and hug him and his mum started screaming and hit my dog with her hand bag i was angry at the time but now its funny and poor max just rolled over on the floor a surrendered and the woman shouted at me for having a big dog so i told her to control where her kids are running to because he could of been vicious but hes a big softy :flrt: and who would be blamed not the parent but the dog :bash:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Being as I'm also a big dog owner, I get the same.
Keano is 32inches, Looks like a wolf but size of a wolfhound. I have had groups of 20 hoodies cross the road in panic at me walking along with him. I just ignore then same as Keano as we mutter on to each other about the 'Retarded Idiots'. 
I have given stern lectures to many a moron while I'm out on a walk. 

But equally while out with my pony who has a thing about dogs running up to her while we have the kids around. She will try and put herself inbetween the dog and the kids, stamping her feet and snorting. Had to tell one stupid woman to get her dog back on a lead, her insisting her dog was ok and it won't do anything while it kept coming towards her (spooky my pony). So I shouted over 'I'm sure your dog is ok, however if he comes any closer to this pony she will put her hoof through his skull! So seriously unless you want a dead dog I surgest you do.'

My dogs will not let anyone do anything untoward towards my kids. I warn first, If they don't take that warning the dog will hold while I beat you to death, but thats me and my dogs see me as the pack leader so I'm always in charge in any fight they look to me to know what the score is rather than making the choice to attack on there own.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

The guy she pinned is someone from the local pub. He was in the shop and spotted me, then decided it would be funny to make me jusp. He waited till I left the shop and grabbed me and shouted something. Kiya was tied up outside, and obviously (not knowing him) thought he was attacking me, so jumped in. She only held him on the floor, and didn't even leave a mark. he was scared s:censor:less at first, but then thought it was funny and asked to buy her off me, lol


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## Sid.lola (Jan 10, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> I have people crossing roads when im out with my dogs even the huskies..............they have the evil wolf look :whistling2:


I crossed the road the other day (cos I needed to get to the side where I live) just as a woman was coming towards me with her Husky. She started muttering to the bloke with her about stupid people being scared just cos it's a Husky. No love - I just needed to cross the road!

I was once in a park with my BIG boxer. (how they used to be!) He ran up to another dog to play and the dog's owner started hitting my dog with a stick and telling me I couldn't control him so I shouldn't have him. I just said "mate - it's a park, he's here to run, if you're dog ain't friendly, don't let him off the lead!"
dick


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Sid.lola said:


> I crossed the road the other day (cos I needed to get to the side where I live) just as a woman was coming towards me with her Husky. She started muttering to the bloke with her about stupid people being scared just cos it's a Husky. No love - I just needed to cross the road!
> 
> I was once in a park with my BIG boxer. (how they used to be!) He ran up to another dog to play and the dog's owner started hitting my dog with a stick and telling me I couldn't control him so I shouldn't have him. I just said "mate - it's a park, he's here to run, if you're dog ain't friendly, don't let him off the lead!"
> dick


 
LOL im not an idiot like her i know the difference between a fear cross an a i need to cross the road cross :lol2::lol2:

As the ones that cross the road out of fear tend to mutter under their breath................they shouldnt be allowed , or that thing should be muzzled silly things like that :lol2:


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## Ragmoth (Oct 4, 2008)

Your dog doesn't sound vicious to me, just protective and good on her! 

Some very silly people around. Ignore, ignore, ignore!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Ragmoth said:


> Your dog doesn't sound vicious to me, just protective and good on her!
> 
> Some very silly people around. Ignore, ignore, ignore!


Though the sad thing is it cant be ignored as if someone went to the police an reported this vicious dog then.................its a case of proving the dog aint vicious and whats vicious to me an you as dog owners may look or seem it to outsiders 


I have a fine example........................i have 8 dogs................when they play they sound like they are killing each other..............i know the difference between play noise and nasty aggressive noise BUT people that know squat about dogs dont 

I have people shouting me as they walk past to tell me my dogs are fighting................i have had idiots offer to buy off me cos they thought they would make good fighting dogs..............i have been told im cruel even on thi forum at one point for putting a video of my dogs up playing...............people thought they were fighting 


So when dogs are involved you cant just ignore at as chances are you will get an ass go report it then ya have animal welfare, police an alsorts on ya doorstep about the vicious dog/s


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

rakpeterson said:


> As said by MarthaMoo, even though YOU know the dog is under control, others might not, and under the DDA a person only has to BELIEVE there is a danger to be able to make a valid complaint. However on your property it is different, so long as the dog is in an area that has no public access and *there are warning signs clearly displayed.* Theoretically, the man who was pinned to your floor could have probably made a complaint *unless you had appropriate signage*.


 
no no no no noooooo...
There was a thread in off topic a bit ago about dogs and for some reason i looked up about signs. If you have a warning sign displayed you are saying that you know your dog may be vicious and are warning people about it. If you have no signs up then you do not think there is anything to worry about.

i'll try and find where i got it from..


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

bottom paragraph


Employing a Guard Dog at Your Home - Secured Home (UK)



> *Law and ‘Beware of the Dog’ Signs*
> 
> The law takes a peculiar stance when it comes to the use of ‘beware of the dog’ signs.
> 
> ...


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

It sometimes pays to have a dog that people are a bit wary of!!!

I was walking Tudor, our St Bernard x, last night and when we were on our way home a group of 'young' teenagers came running out of the demolition site at the bottom of our street.
Tudor got a shock and barked at them, more like a yorkie than a big dog, they jumped on the wall 'cos they thought he was going to bite them. As I was pulling him away from the wall two coppers said to keep him there until they caught up with the kids.
The kids had been vandalising the area. They could have been hurt, not by Tudor but maybe falling masonry etc, I'm glad Tudor scared them a bit hopefully they won't play in a demolition site any more!!!!!


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## Mish (Nov 17, 2008)

I think its really important to know whether the dog is predictable.
Yes, its very handy to have a dog who is protective and knows EVERYTIME when its assistance is required and when its not. However, can we really be sure that each and every dog who shows aggressive tendancies will know the difference between one situation and another. There is a fine line between being protective and being aggressive to the point of attack, and it only takes one misjudgement on the part of the dog and we have a young child mauled to death by a so called 'loving family pet'.


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## RasperAndy (Sep 21, 2007)

its funny how people cross the road, i get it a lot and i always end up making a comment.

why did you cross over? are you scared of a elderly dog that cant walk very far and hasn't got enough energy to bark? i can only walk him around the block now and he's ready for a sleep. but because he is a staffy they cross over.

but these people happily walk past a jack russel or another ankle biter


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

nowt to do with the dog Andy... its you, you big old scouser. They think you're going to mug them :whistling2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Meko said:


> nowt to do with the dog Andy... its you, you big old scouser. They think you're going to mug them :whistling2:


 

LOL Meko im glad you said it :lol2:


sowwie Andy ya know i luffs ya really :lol2::flrt::flrt:


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## 11krage (Mar 9, 2008)

Your dog sounds brilliant, if you are able to control her i don't see why people should have any problem with that.

Of course saying that, my family own a very 'giant visous out of control dog' apparlently :roll:

She was barely a year old when she reached 30kg, and having scruffy impossible hair makes her look bigger. Though compared to the dogs i saw at the rescue i worked at she looks like a titch now. She was off the lead once in the fields, and we came across a spaniel sized dog on a lead. She was very well behaved (i do admit at that age she was very hyper), very calm, did everything right that i taught her. Dogs had a good sniff, then i was about to head off after talking with the guy when his dog started playing and barking. Of course, being a pup, though a oversized one at the time she was happy to join in, only her play bark is as loud as her size.

The guy eventually picked up his dog and walked away, moaning to himself about how vicious dogs should be controlled, kept locked up, etc :blah:

His dog was the one who wanted to play. 

Course what really made me feel for his dog was why we were talking in the first place. He basically told me off for having my dog off the lead, said that he kept his dog on the lead all the time when they were out and about :whistling2:

Then there was the time at the end of a walk when we were heading back and walked past this family. Only i say past, but as soon as bea took a little sniff in their direction the 'macho' father leapt forward to save his family from the black beast and grabbed her collar giving me the most horrible look. Poor bea looked utterly confused as she was stopped in her tracks mid tail wag, so she sat down lovely and politely as she was a bit older then and waited for me to take her collar, clip on her lead as i was planning to do in five minutes anyway. 

Walked forward with a bewildered dog at my side and matched his 'control your demon dog' look with my 'what the hell did you do that for?' 

Funny thing is, she's so good tempered, she's only growled once in her life and that was at one spesific dog on a walk, suspect a undone male.


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## cathspythons (Jun 29, 2008)

from what i have read,your dog was just doing his job.looking after you and your family.balls to those who think he is nasty.just be carefull and be aware he can be aggresive at times,he may see a threat when you carnt.he sounds a cracker to me


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

the dog laws are very strict on public property. a dog that displays aggression and/or bites on public property is liable to be PTS...... however there has been many cases of dogs biting people on private property i.e. neighbours where the dog has lived to bark again.
Where a dog bites on private property, the court has to have a valid reason to give a court order to have a dog PTS, i.e. a burglar illegally entering a property is not reason enough, a neighbour acting threatening and tresspassing is not reason enough.
however, if the neighbour has his argument rejected on court he/she may then sue for damages dependant on whether he/she was physically hurt.
most cases of dogs biting/attcking on private property are infact an out of control dog attackibg a family member, in which case the family sends the dog to be PTS themselves (even though its more often than not the families fault the dogs out of control).


I have a sign on my front door stating that dogs are present, this was actually advised by the local police to disuade people from entering the property uninvited, should they ignore it and be bitten then it is their fault as they were forewarned. And mine and my dogs back is covered.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Pilskin, not according to this



Meko said:


> bottom paragraph
> 
> 
> Employing a Guard Dog at Your Home - Secured Home (UK)


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## PsyKoViggy (Jan 6, 2008)

its mad really..
if a dog bites anyone, for near enough any reason, they get PTS
but there was a guy in the news, the police had stopped him because he had a Pit Bull and he then threatened to set the dog on them.. well, the dog bolted, bless its heart, so the owner bit the policeman!
for some reason, which is very much beyond me, they didn't lock him up in a cold, issolated cell for 3 months and then give him a lethal injection.. 

you can't blame a dog for being protective, especially if someone lunges at the kids.. no one would blame the parents for reacting in the same way.
i don't see what the difference is, other than that dogs can't understand human language or logic or social expectations, so can't be expected to think "oh but wait, this man is dressed as Santa and therefore is actually but a friendly christmas weirdo"

to be fair on these dogs, i don't understand human logic most of the time either :bash:


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## bendigo (Jan 28, 2008)

hahaha a while ago when i got home from walking the dog i was at the door having trouble with the key when a mother and her hugley obese daughter walked past, her daughter eating a HUGE packet of crisps! well my dog thinks ooo lovely crisps and kids and trots over to see if her can get one, he stood there about a foot away giving the puppy dog eyes but the kid started screaming through her mouthful of crisps, the mother got really annoyed and yelled at her daughter to hurry up, i called my dog back and let him in, as the mother walked away she said i shouldnt have such a vicious animal and i wasnt fit to own a dog!

i just yelled back bull:censor: your not fit to have a kid then because if for one second she thought he was anything more than a cheeky sneak thief she would of thrown herself between her kid and my dog if she was a good parent


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> no no no no noooooo...
> There was a thread in off topic a bit ago about dogs and for some reason i looked up about signs. If you have a warning sign displayed you are saying that you know your dog may be vicious and are warning people about it. If you have no signs up then you do not think there is anything to worry about.
> 
> i'll try and find where i got it from..



That's actually an old wives tale according to my local police whom I'm on good terms with.
So long as the sign doesn't say something like "warning, this dog bites" you aren't admitting to anything.
I have a sign on my gate saying "dogs running loose, enter at your own risk". If they enter they have accepted the risk in the eyes of the law.
The tale about signs being an admittance to having a dangerous dog is one of those urban myths.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> Pilskin, not according to this


 That refers to professional guard dogs and not family pets I think (didn't read the link) there is a difference in the eyes of the law.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Fen.. its about a dog at your home.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> Fen.. its about a dog at your home.


 I give no credence to a site which mentions ' Doberman pinchers'. It is a site, that's all, not a legal company. And on it's disclaimer page it says:

"ANY ADVICE OR INFORMATION RECEIVED THROUGH THIS WEBSITE OR ITS CONTENT SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON AS BEING CORRECT OR ACCURATE"

(their uppercase not mine).

So it makes me wonder why they offer gems of info as the truth yet have a disclaimer which says that it may not actually be the truth. They are simply repeating the urban myth about gate signs without any legal basis and openly say that they may not be correct.
As I said before. It depends on the wording.
A sign saying "my dog will bite if you come in" is an admission that you have a dog which will bite. Whereas the sign on my gate which states "caution dogs running loose, enter at your own risk" is worded so that anyone entering, is deemed to have accepted any risk. It doesn't actually say that my dogs will bite. It could imply that they might jump up to lick the person and in doing so, might push them over, or muddy their clothes.
It isn't simple black and white as in all signs admit guilt or no sign admits it. It is dependant on the wording and of course whether the dog or dogs in question have shown previous tendencies to aggression as my late Kip did. And for him, plans were in place that if some numpty did come in despite hs body slamming the gate, snarling and slavering on the other side, and they got mauled by him as they would certainly have been, a friend would come right away and remove him and keep him for several month and I would tell the law that he ran off. Then several months later, I would go to a rescue kennels and adopt a dog which looked remarkably like Kip but had a different name. Hence my Kip was also known as Wolfie, Rex, and Maximus and would answer to any of those names.
I took great care to ensure that he could not get off my property and wouldn't be in a position to bite anyone as I knew it wouldn't be one bite but a full on savaging but if someone was daft enough to make a serious effort to get onto my property and got mauled, then my lad wasn't going to lose his life for it however badly the numpty was bitten. Heck one numpty less isn't a dilemma, there are council estates full of single chavmums ready to drop their drawers and breed loads more.
Luckily I live far enough out of the village that tanked up lads showing off to mates wouldn't stagger along to mine but would tease dogs closer to home.
Kip was the only dog I've ever owned who was downright dangerous and I was aware of the fact and took great care to ensure that he never got to bite anyone and he never did although he came pretty close on a couple of occasions when men (why is it always bleddy men) didn't listen to what I was saying and underestimated him or didn't believe that the lips back, nose wrinkled, snapping and snarling were really serious!
One wet himself when Kip put himself through my car window at him, another found himself flat on his back in my yard after he'd climbed the gate, with Kip standing with his teeth pressed against his neck and staring right into his face with his beautiful yellow eyes, and the other fool got shoved bodily by me after trying to reach into the back of my car from behind me as I was loading it with shopping, and attempting to stroke Kip despite Kip's warnings to back off and get away from his mum. Silly old fart said "oh he doesn't mean it. Dogs like me".:bash:
The only other dog I've had which bit in anger was my old giant schnauzer bitch and then in my defence and only after the pikey had hit her across her back first with his stick.
It was just after I'd moved in here and had no gates up. I was in the nback and a pikey came down the side of the house and when he spotted me asked if I had any scrap metal to sell. When I said no, he tried to push past me and said "I'll just take a look then as you might have something else to sell". At this point I got a little miffed and told him to feck orf out of it. Harley came and stood beside me, stared at him and rumbled. At this point he would have been best advised to leave, instead of which he started to raise his voice and shout at me to "get the dog away". I replied calmly that if he left, she would be fine as indeed she was. Instead, he took a step forward and laid his stick across her back and she literally exploded. I suppose she thought I might be next. She bit his legs from the cottage, down the path and when he leapt into his transit his pants were in shreds and there was blood.He wound down the window and sai "I'm getting the law and they'll kill that f...ing dog" and quick as a flash, I ripped my teeshirt down the front and yelled back, "do it. I'll tell the law she was protecting me when you tried to rape me".
Never heard any more of it. Poor Harley limped back to me but a quick vet check that afternoon showed she'd only been badly bruised.
She did what a good German dog should do. Stand close and warn the danger off and only attack if the family was physically attacked first which he did. She was a brilliant bitch and I miss her. She died only 2 weeks after I lost my Kip to a brain haemmorhage<sp>

Personally I'd rather not have a dog which bites. I'd much rather have one which looks as though it might.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

A used to have a GSD called Jarot. He had no guarding instincts whatsoever! He was a big long coat almost all black dog, really impressive looking. Sire was a working trials champion and his mum worked b and c obedience and was qualified wdex. 
I wanted him to play the part if needed but, without any aggression. I got round this by teaching him to speak for food in my hand, then I progressed to putting food on the table and getting the speak while he looked at the food, next I got a familiar person to hold the food so he spoke to them. Finally a less familiar person holding the food. The result was that I could point him to anyone and get him to bark at them. Looked like he was being all macho and ferocious but he was just asking for a sweetie. It gave me a feeling of security but without having to worry about my dog biting anyone.
Unfortunately the law regards dogs as guilty until proven innocent. The onus is on the owner to prove the dog is NOT dangerous in the event of a complaint.


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## luke123 (Apr 13, 2008)

i took my jack russel to the vets, when we walked in the vet was like ohhh youde better be good or youll have one of those muzzle things on, and i was quite offended, then this dog in another room barked, and mine basked back and waged his tail (not nastily) and the vet got really scared of him, and put a thing on his mouth so he couldnt bite her!! i was fuming, she couldnt tell nasty/playful behaviour apart...


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

luke123 said:


> i took my jack russel to the vets, when we walked in the vet was like ohhh youde better be good or youll have one of those muzzle things on, and i was quite offended, then this dog in another room barked, and mine basked back and waged his tail (not nastily) and the vet got really scared of him, and put a thing on his mouth so he couldnt bite her!! i was fuming, she couldnt tell nasty/playful behaviour apart...


The vet once muzzled one of mine years ago and the dog took a deep breath and blew a big blob of snot right in the vets face - he was gonna get him one way or the other :lol2:


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## Reiyuu (Sep 21, 2007)

I think its sad how prejudiced people can be against certain breeds.We walked our GSDXHusky through our town the other day with the lead looped over her nose cos she pulls like a train and acts like a pillock on the lead by zig zagging if we dont. 

I was in line for the cashpoint when the group of young men in front of me cought sight of her and Rain stood aa little way off and I heard them mutter " Look at that big alsatian. It ust be nasty cos got a muzzle on. He shouldn't have brought in a viciouse dog."

If they knew Her at all they would know she's a complete and utter DONUT! she has the IQ of a house brick! she doesnt know how to be mean! Stupid yes, mean no.

Sadly matey the only thing you can do is grit yuor teeth and ignore them. If your comfortable with the dog then thast all that matters ^^


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## peaches (Apr 3, 2007)

11krage said:


> She was barely a year old when she reached 30kg, and having scruffy impossible hair makes her look bigger. .........................................................................only her play bark is as loud as her size.


This sounds very much like my dog, being big but still so playful and bouncy really does put people off, with such a loud, deep bark too.

I don't let him off lead, he'll be gone like a shot, unless were in the fields we walk in......but when walking by the canal, and we see other people with their dogs, I will say he's friendly but very stupid and very bouncy and explain that he is still young not the old man he looks like!


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## emma_fyfe (Jan 8, 2006)

i have the same problem with people thinking my dogs vicious, just because shes a dobermann. 

Yeah she barks at people, but thats what dogs do. If we invite anyone into our house she barks round them and then leaves them alone. Shes more scared of people than they are of her, and is terrified of other dogs. 

We've had the police round because someone made a complaint to them, saying our dog was running round free and attacked their 3yr old girl. Thing is, if she was off her lead and wanted to attack a 3yr old girl, then the girl would probably not be here today. What really happened is our dog was on the path, on a lead walking beside us and this girl raced past. My dogs terrified of bikes, and made a yelping sound because she was scared. Parents heard this and decided to try and get our dog destroyed just because shes a big dog. 

We've also had the dog warden out to us a few times because apparently our dog is out of control on the street. Yep she comes out on the street, but only to jump into the car. 

other neighbours dogs are always roaming free, even when the neighbours arent there but no one says anything because theyre small jack russel terriers. One has even attacked my dog a few days ago, and mine did nothing back and ran to me when called. 

Not much you can do about it though, people will always see bigger dogs as evil and do whatever they can to make your life hell. It just makes me laugh now!


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## Shelley66 (Feb 19, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> A few people have said my GSD is vicious, but she isn't. I have had dogs all my life, and I know them pretty well. People say mine is nasty because she is protective. She wont let people she doesnt know near my baby or let them in my house if my wife or me isnt there. She also went for a guy who grabbed me outside a shop, but she has never hurt anyone. All I have to do is say 'back off' and she leaves whoever she is barking/growling at. It pee's me off that she gets called nasty or vicious, when I can control her with jus a few words.


She is doing what a shepherd is bred to do... Protecting her flock. Nothing wrong with that. A GSD should be wary of strangers, it is part of their nature. The problem is with other people these days, people who don't think a dog should be allowed to protect their owners because if they do then they are obviously nasty!!

My first GSD wouldn't let anyone near me in the street, she would start barking if she thought they were getting too close. The older she got the less she did it, but she always kept an eye on people. She used to protect our kids when we were out too. I got told many times that I should get rid off her because she was evil, but she wasn't, she was protecting us, just as she should have done. She was a lovely girl and I always felt 100% safe with her around!! She lived to be 12 1/2 and never once did she try to bite anyone.

The one I have now is extremely friendly to everyone and everything, BUT we have noticed since the winter has set in, and she is being walked in the dark, she starts to grumble when she can see people in the distance. That is just because she isn't used to seeing people in the dark yet. But people cross the street now when she is being walked, she is only 6 months old but she looks like a full grown GSD, and everyone thinks they will attack them! lol she is more likely to knock them over trying to give them a kiss:blush:


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## Marine (Jun 6, 2008)

rakpeterson said:


> However on your property it is different, so long as the dog is in an area that has no public access and there are warning signs clearly displayed.


I just have to step in here to say do NOT put up a sign that says 'beware of the dog' on your property

In a court of law this is seen as admitting that your dog is liable to bite and therefore you were aware that it is dangerous.

You can put up a sign that says 'Be aware that dogs live here' 'Dogs running free on the property' 'Dogs loose, close the gate' etc etc but not beware of the dog if anything does happen this could be used against you.

Also worth mentioning is that your car is legally a public place even if someone breaks into it and gets bitten.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i said that and nobody believed me :whistling2:


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

All this sign stuff not being a good idea, in my opinion is crap.

Under the guard dogs act of 1975, of which I have to be familliar in line with my work, states that if you have a dog on your premises for the purpose of guarding, then it is a legal requirement to have an appropriate sign on any access point to that premises.

I never suggested that the sign should indicate in any way that the dog is aggressive, only that it is present.

If it is correct that by displaying a sign is admission of your dogs ability to bite on your own or non-public property, and as a result you are then liable to prosecution and having the dog seized under the DDA, then thats me and many other people out of a job, not to mention the amount of people who according to this thread so far, will be in a great amount of trouble.

The fact is that is you have a dog on your property that you know will guard that property, or the dog is intended for that use, then by not displaying appropriate signs puts you in breach of the guard dogs act and then puts you at risk of prosecution.

In the eyes of the law, ignorance is not a valid excuse, and your are unlikely to walk away having pleaded ''honestly, i didnt know my dog could bite someone''


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

The Guard Dogs Act requires that a handler is present on the premises and the dog is under control at all times. If you were going to use the Guard Dogs Act as some kind of defense, you wouldn't ever be able to leave your dogs home alone roaming around your premises. Also you have to have a license to keep a guard dog.
Domestic pets are a different kettle of fish.


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Evie said:


> The Guard Dogs Act requires that a handler is present on the premises and the dog is under control at all times. If you were going to use the Guard Dogs Act as some kind of defense, you wouldn't ever be able to leave your dogs home alone roaming around your premises. Also you have to have a license to keep a guard dog.
> Domestic pets are a different kettle of fish.


It is correct that you have to have a handler present at all times, and if the dog is there for that purpose and no handler is present then you would be in breach, but if my dog was to attack someone on my property i would definately be using this act in my defense.

It is not correct that you need a license to be able to own or use a guard dog. That part of the law refers to guard dog kennels.


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## Marine (Jun 6, 2008)

Exactly Evie, as far as im aware we are not talking guard dogs here were talking family pets on residential property which IS a different kettle of fish.

Yes a lot of people do have signs up saying beware of the dog and are unaware that it 'could' stand against them IF their dog was to bite someone. 
I was previously an animal welfare officer for a london borough and can assure you the signs are not a good idea there are better alternatives that still let people know you have a dog.

Its a bit like shooting an intruder in your own home Im guessing on this one but if you put up a sign that says 'enter and I will kill you' its not likely to be seen very kindly if you get to court and say i just grabbed something in self defence theres a case to be heard.


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## RasperAndy (Sep 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> nowt to do with the dog Andy... its you, you big old scouser. They think you're going to mug them :whistling2:





Emmaj said:


> LOL Meko im glad you said it
> 
> sowwie Andy ya know i luffs ya really :lol2::flrt::flrt:


watch it you two, 

i haven't put a celica on bricks for a while :hmm:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

rakpeterson said:


> It is correct that you have to have a handler present at all times, and if the dog is there for that purpose and no handler is present then you would be in breach, but if my dog was to attack someone on my property i would definately be using this act in my defense.
> 
> It is not correct that you need a license to be able to own or use a guard dog. That part of the law refers to guard dog kennels.


I was just skim reading the Act and I stand corrected on the license bit. The fact is though, that dogs are treated unfairly by the law and by advertising that you are aware of the fact that the dog is dangerous, you are admitting that you allowed it to be in a position to bite someone. Your defense would then suffer because you have already demonstrated that you knowingly have a vicious dog at large and it has bitten. If you claimed that the dog had not previously demonstrated aggression and that you would control the dog better in future, you might have a chance of saving your dogs life by accepting a control order.
It's like Marine said, we might aswell all have guns. 
Scenario: 
Illiterate person or silly child takes a short cut across your land (how many of the guys on here never climbed a wall they shouldn't have when they were kids)/ tries to hide/ seek refuge etc. No ill intent - do they really deservethe kind of punishment a heavy duty dog can inflict? Just a thought.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Incubuss i have to say that your dogs behaviour towards fmaily members and strangers could land you in court with a destruction order!! My rottie had me dragged in to court for far less.
Guarding you is not healthy and could as i said land your dog in a shelter being put to sleep. Is that what you want?

Marina


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Marine said:


> Exactly Evie, as far as im aware we are not talking guard dogs here were talking family pets on residential property which IS a different kettle of fish.
> 
> Yes a lot of people do have signs up saying beware of the dog and are unaware that it 'could' stand against them IF their dog was to bite someone.
> I was previously an animal welfare officer for a london borough and can assure you the signs are not a good idea there are better alternatives that still let people know you have a dog.
> ...


The reason signs are being discussed is because I suggested that it may be a good idea given that one of the people posting had an intruder that their dog attacked. That ''intruder'' could have made a complaint about the dog wich may have resulted in action being taken under the DDA, whereas an appropriate sign would have given some kind of defense.

I will add that an appropriate sign is not one that says the dog is aggressive, viscious, will bite or anything simillar but informs persons of the fact that a dog is present.

Also, I know that it has never been impied that any of these dogs are there to guard but many people have a dog for many reasons, including the fact that a dog is good protection as a deterrent and as last resort protection, and in these cases you are in breach of the guard dogs act by not displaying appropriate signs and as such have no protection if your dog was to attack someone.


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Evie said:


> by advertising that you are aware of the fact that the dog is dangerous, you are admitting that you allowed it to be in a position to bite someone.


The point is your are not ''advertising'' the fact the dog is likely to bite, and putting a sign up with words to that effect, i agree, would be a very stupid thing to do.

An appropriate sign only informs the person that a dog is present and nothing more ie BEWARE OF THE DOG. This does not imply the dog is aggressive, you are just asking for people to be aware that a dog is present.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

rakpeterson said:


> The point is your are not ''advertising'' the fact the dog is likely to bite, and putting a sign up with words to that effect, i agree, would be a very stupid thing to do.
> 
> An appropriate sign only informs the person that a dog is present and nothing more ie BEWARE OF THE DOG. This does not imply the dog is aggressive, you are just asking for people to be aware that a dog is present.


I just have a 'dogs running free do not enter' sign. It says everything I need it to say. Beware just has too much of a suggestion of danger for me but I guess it is subjective.
We had a beware of the dogs sign at a place I worked many years ago and some cheeky sod nicked it  :lol2:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

RasperAndy said:


> watch it you two,
> 
> i haven't put a celica on bricks for a while :hmm:


 
i think somebody has.. its shaking like a shitting dog with parkinsons disease at the minute..


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## RasperAndy (Sep 21, 2007)

Meko said:


> i think somebody has.. its shaking like a shitting dog with parkinsons disease at the minute..


like muhammad ali playing the marakas?


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> Incubuss i have to say that your dogs behaviour towards fmaily members and strangers could land you in court with a destruction order!! My rottie had me dragged in to court for far less.
> Guarding you is not healthy and could as i said land your dog in a shelter being put to sleep. Is that what you want?
> 
> Marina


My dog will only attack if someone physically attacks me or any of my family, and I am happy with that. i would sooner someone get bitten then a family member be badly hurt.

My kiya wwould protect me, my wife and baby with her life, but only under command, or extreme cases. Even then, she 'holds' them, not kills them. I see no problem in this, and am pleased about it


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Incubuss said:


> My dog will only attack if someone physically attacks me or any of my family, and I am happy with that. i would sooner someone get bitten then a family member be badly hurt.
> 
> My kiya wwould protect me, my wife and baby with her life, but only under command, or extreme cases. Even then, she 'holds' them, not kills them. I see no problem in this, and am pleased about it


_
Any dog is Dangerously out of control if:

_

_It Injures a person or_
_or behaves in a way that makes a person worried that it *might *injure them_
_The law applies everywhere the general public is allowed to go and anywhere your dog goes.

The maximum penalty for allowing a dog you own or are in control of is imprisonment or a fine or both.
_

So its all and well your dog protecting you but teaching bark by hand signals would be better but you are running a fine line of the above by letting your dog actually jump up and hold someone.

I have seen this in the kennels were I worked were dogs that have been accused of been dangerous for far less things than your dog is doing.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

grr this annoys me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


big dogs thats all it is BIG DOGS THAT GET THESE BAD COMMENTS

not the stupid little shitzus and jack russels, chihuahuas the RATS of the canine world yet just because there bigger than the rats they get bad comments


oh :censor: off ive had many rows with dumb people who take the media to heart because of my staffy! and sometimes i wish he would bite them! just so they have somthing to moan about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but he wont

because hes a nice dog and he will lick them! and at the worse proberly scratch them with his dangerous claws

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DANGEROUS!
:bash: rant over


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Nebbz said:


> grr this annoys me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> big dogs thats all it is BIG DOGS THAT GET THESE BAD COMMENTS


because big dogs are able to kill people or cause major damage



> not the stupid little shitzus and jack russels, chihuahuas the RATS of the canine world yet just because there bigger than the rats they get bad comments


 As I am someone who keeps a shih-zu and chhihuahuas, I find your idiotic comments insulting and offensive.None of my small dogs, would, if they were savage, be likely to scar a child, kill a child, or put an adult in hospital with serious injuries, if it bit them. My Ursa is perfectly capable of doing all of those things.




> oh :censor: off ive had many rows with dumb people who take the media to heart because of my staffy! and sometimes i wish he would bite them! just so they have somthing to moan about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but he wont


well I'm sure that aggressive an immature attitude has done more damage to the reputation of the breed and the type of people who keep the breed, than any media could do. Well done you!:bash:



> because hes a nice dog and he will lick them! and at the worse proberly scratch them with his dangerous claws


 and a stranger or child would know this because..............?



> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DANGEROUS!


 Potentially yes he is. SHowing yourself to be a responsible and caring owner, talking the time to reassure people who might be afraid of your dog, showing them that he is affectionate and well behaved will do more for his reputation than a defensive, aggressive and confrontational attutude and insulting other breeds because they aren't as macho as your own breed slots you nicely into the media image of a 'typical' aggressive and rude staffy owner.
Aswell as keeping little tiny 'rats', I have always had the large German guarding breeds and now have a 65kg Rottweiler crossed Newfoundland. I also like staffies among other so called 'macho' breeds.
What I dislike is not any breed of dog, but certain types of owners who insult other breeds simply because they aren't the breed that they own.
I find it shows a lack of intelligence and knowledge about other breeds and arrogance.



> :bash: rant over


oh good.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Oh Fenny you don't make it easy! Sometimes I think I've made my mind up; that you're a right old trout and then you go and post awesomeness and I have to change my mind:notworthy:


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> because big dogs are able to kill people or cause major damage
> 
> 
> As I am someone who keeps a shih-zu and chhihuahuas, I find your idiotic comments insulting and offensive.None of my small dogs, would, if they were savage, be likely to scar a child, kill a child, or put an adult in hospital with serious injuries, if it bit them. My Ursa is perfectly capable of doing all of those things.
> ...



we dont agree often Fen but oh my I so do on this :no1:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Evie said:


> Oh Fenny you don't make it easy! Sometimes I think I've made my mind up; that you're a right old trout and then you go and post awesomeness and I have to change my mind:notworthy:


 I is a woman of mystery.

Nobody can make me out. Not even my psychiatrist:lol2:


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## C_Strike (Feb 20, 2007)

too many monkeys have dogs, too many have no idea how to look after them. The responsibilty of nasty dogs is the owners.

Personally i find it a bit sillly to critisize a GSd for being protective...is it just me or are they working dogs originally bred to look after sheep and drive off any possible threat to them. Isnt that the reason we keep them? They are the most affectionate, intelligent, beautiful dogs there are. Everything they do is selfless, everything they do is for their owners, their clan.
IMO if someone started a fight with me, i would rather appreciate having shadow (RIP) with me. In all her life she did nothing but protect,. love and be there. Situations that get a bit daunting where quickly resolved with a deep roaring bark, or possiblya pin down. lol she was soppy as hell though, but had police(esque) training... essentially a high level of training. She didnt require a leash out, she wouldnt chase cats, or ANYTHING, i could walk her to sainsburys, and command her to stay sit and shed be in EXACTLY the same position as when i went in, even still sat rather than led. one simple word would be all it took to command her.. she wouldnt even cross the road without eing told to.
I would not have it any other way.
I do not agree with nasty dogs in public without a muzzle, my friends staffie has often being run down by other dogs that really should have a muzzle, or at the LEAST a bloody leash.. Again its down to the owner, lots of dog owners are idiots, and uunfortuantely most of those have the 'aggressive' dogs.
Primarily staffies, which i love to peaces. Its down to training though..

You can see im a fan of dogs, and especially GSD (It makes me weepy thinking of my Shadow, even years on, she was and somehow, still is a huge part of my life). NO other breed iv had, or known has ever been able to fill such a prominant and true role as part of the family. 

think i side tracked a bit sorry!
point being, any dog can and should be obedient, if your not prepared to train your dog, you shouldnt have them, that simple.
I wouldnt have it any other way for mine


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*Hello*



C_Strike said:


> too many monkeys have dogs, too many have no idea how to look after them. The responsibilty of nasty dogs is the owners.
> 
> Personally i find it a bit sillly to critisize a GSd for being protective...is it just me or are they working dogs originally bred to look after sheep and drive off any possible threat to them. Isnt that the reason we keep them? They are the most affectionate, intelligent, beautiful dogs there are. Everything they do is selfless, everything they do is for their owners, their clan.
> IMO if someone started a fight with me, i would rather appreciate having shadow (RIP) with me. In all her life she did nothing but protect,. love and be there. Situations that get a bit daunting where quickly resolved with a deep roaring bark, or possiblya pin down. lol she was soppy as hell though, but had police(esque) training... essentially a high level of training. She didnt require a leash out, she wouldnt chase cats, or ANYTHING, i could walk her to sainsburys, and command her to stay sit and shed be in EXACTLY the same position as when i went in, even still sat rather than led. one simple word would be all it took to command her.. she wouldnt even cross the road without eing told to.
> ...


All dogs should be on a leash! some people are genuinly scared of dogs big or small, and no matter how trained any dog is they can be potentually dangerous.
I also think the person who started the thread who thinks its funny his dog pinned someone is an idiot as the dog didnt know the difference between playing and aggression so maybe its not so clever after all :bash:


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*Again*



Nebbz said:


> grr this annoys me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> big dogs thats all it is BIG DOGS THAT GET THESE BAD COMMENTS
> ...


why are small dogs stupid little rats? trust me they can be over protactive and snappy, and people are not dumb they are cautious i have a greyhound who is extremelly shy and well behaved but if i leave the room my children are in so does he. i love gsd myself personally but when i was younger i was attacked by one, i was 5 running along minding my own buisiness when it decided it wanted to play it knocked me flying and caught me with his teeth but it wouldnt of happened if he had been on a lead , and loads of people i know have staffies and they are lovely dogs so calm down abit as i presume everyone on here is an animal lover of some kind it dont help when people open threads banging on about a dog that will attack specially if told which i think was a rather stupid move to make : victory:


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

i appreciate i have proberly annoyed a few people with my comments, but im not a fan of small dogs at all as have had Many bad experiences and many scars because of them.

never a bad one with a big dog. i agree i may have been immature with my comments in most eyes apologies for that.

but other people as far as im concerned if they dont like the dog, dont come close enough to provoke it if it was dangerous in there eyes. in my area this is done on purpose hence why i get irate about it


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Incubus i repeat again your dogs behaviour will land you in court. Someone only has to fear for their safety these days and BANG your in court. Your dog does NOT have to bite any more before you get a destruction order.

And whats to say one day its xmas evening and you and your brother in law are reinacting a scene from rambo and the dog wanders in to the room and gets the wrong idea!!!!

FENWOMAN i'm sorry but your bog standard pomeranian or westie is perfectly capable of scaring someone. I dont know why you think it isnt. All you need is a puncture wound from a tooth and there you go scar!

Marina


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> All dogs should be on a leash!


 complete nonsense!!
How am I.for instance< supposed to properly exerzize my active dogs, like the lurcher and Chalky the big terrier who need to be able to run fast and hard and get out of breath? All dogs need this otherwise they get unfit and as fat as their owners.
So are you suggesting that I learn to run like Seb Coe in order to be able to have them run hard while I run alongside on their lead? Have some sense girl.



> some people are genuinly scared of dogs big or small, and no matter how trained any dog is they can be potentually dangerous.


and potentially anyone stepping out of their front door might be hit by a meteorite or get stabbed by a machete wielding maniac, or run down by a rampaging bus.
A well trained dog and sensible and responsible owner means that nobody is at risk.
If someone is terrified of dogs. While I feel sympathy (even though I can't comprehend it), they should not then deliberately go to a dog exersize area should they? And if they were so terrified of them, then it wouldn't make any difference if the dog is on or off lead.



> I also think the person who started the thread who thinks its funny his dog pinned someone is an idiot as the dog didnt know the difference between playing and aggression so maybe its not so clever after all :bash:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Incubus i repeat again your dogs behaviour will land you in court. Someone only has to fear for their safety these days and BANG your in court. Your dog does NOT have to bite any more before you get a destruction order.
> 
> And whats to say one day its xmas evening and you and your brother in law are reinacting a scene from rambo and the dog wanders in to the room and gets the wrong idea!!!!
> 
> ...


Yup, a cat scratch, some rogue rose bushes, a bit of gravel, all capable of scarring someone. Be sensible for goodness sakes. If some of my chihuahuas decided to bite someone, how much damage do you think a 3lb dog is going to be able to do really? And what fool would bend down and try to pet a dog who was snarling at them? Not that my lot would of course cos apart from Chalky, none of mine bite.
However, if someone is silly enough to insist on petting a snapping snarling chihuahua or Pomeranian are you saying that they'll do the same damage as if they petted a snapping snarling Rottweler cross Newfie? Or a snapping snarling GSD, Rottie,Staffie or any other breed?
I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing here because I never said anything about a small dog not being able to cause a scar. Please read what I actually said and try to comprehend it. As I said, a scar can be caused by any little scratch you could get from anything. That was not the issue.
I am covered in scars and only 1 is from a dog bite.
Perhaps rose bushes should all be made illegal and cut down, and hawthorn the same as they are much worse since a hawthorn prick will go infected. Heck, no, the world is far too dangerous to live in, I think I'll drown myself to be on the safe side.


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*Dear fenwoman*

may i add i am not a girl! but yes all dogs should be on a lead in a public place , and yes you may enjoy abit of exercise too aldo it is more likely if the dog is on a lead when it does its mess you are more likely to pick it up rather than trying to find where your dog has left it!:Na_Na_Na_Na: also if a dog is off the lead it could wander into an area not meant for dog walking and even into danger!


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> may i add i am not a girl! but yes all dogs should be on a lead in a public place , and yes you may enjoy abit of exercise too aldo it is more likely if the dog is on a lead when it does its mess you are more likely to pick it up rather than trying to find where your dog has left it!:Na_Na_Na_Na: also if a dog is off the lead it could wander into an area not meant for dog walking and even into danger!


If dog did not get an off lead run around the park, they would be infinitely more dangerous as they would be wound up and frustrated. 
Also for the record, my dogs never crap off the lead, and they are too busy chasing their ball to be remotely interested in silly people with their irrational phobias. 
Dogs are a part of our society, humans domesticated them and bred them. We made use of their talents for our own ends, the very least society can do to repay them is a run off the lead in an appropriate place. :bash:


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*Exactly*



Evie said:


> If dog did not get an off lead run around the park, they would be infinitely more dangerous as they would be wound up and frustrated.
> Also for the record, my dogs never crap off the lead, and they are too busy chasing their ball to be remotely interested in silly people with their irrational phobias.
> Dogs are a part of our society, humans domesticated them and bred them. We made use of their talents for our own ends, the very least society can do to repay them is a run off the lead in an appropriate place. :bash:


EXACTLY where they cannot come into contact with other people or children and where they cannot get them selves in danger and injured them selves. for the dogs safety they should be on leads near roads amd shops etc thats not what i was saying , and just cause man decided to domesticate them not everyone would agree that its down to all off us I dont breed i have a rescue dog who was a racer but it dont mean i will let him off the lead to run a muck. And people who have phobias are not silly but absent minded people are!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

My dog is walked off lead on every walk he has! Imagine stopping that many times on a walk just so he can sniff a tree & pee! 

:lol2:


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

Meko said:


> Pilskin, not according to this


 
As long as the dog is not actually a trained guard dog then that law does not apply meko.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> may i add i am not a girl! but yes all dogs should be on a lead in a public place , and yes you may enjoy abit of exercise too aldo it is more likely if the dog is on a lead when it does its mess you are more likely to pick it up rather than trying to find where your dog has left it!:Na_Na_Na_Na: also if a dog is off the lead it could wander into an area not meant for dog walking and even into danger!


I take it you haven't a dog and don't understand the need for exersize? You also seem not to understand about training. Do you think that if a dog is off the lead that it randomly rampages all over the place completely out of control?
If you aren't a girl, why is your username Miss understood?

As for me enjoying excersize, I think I get more than enough running my smallholding single handedly, heaving 25kg sacks of food, bales of hay and straw, mucking out etc. And luckily, since I have land, my dogs get to run about. However, I do take them out to the riverbank where they gallop like the wind across the fields and if they poo nobody is likely to step on it. If I take them into town, I also let them gallop like the wind on the rec' and if they poo, I pick it up.
If there was any danger I for one wouldn't let my dogs off lead then and I'm sure other dog owners wouldn't either. I must admit I've never come across out of control dogs ramaging about into dangerous situations. You must live in a funny place.
BTW I would still like to know how dog owners can properly exersize them so that they run hard and fast until they are panting and tired, as they need to do at least once a day, if they are kept on a lead. Would you be kind enough to give me your thoughts on this particular subject?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> EXACTLY where they cannot come into contact with other people or children and where they cannot get them selves in danger and injured them selves. for the dogs safety they should be on leads near roads amd shops etc thats not what i was saying , and just cause man decided to domesticate them not everyone would agree that its down to all off us I dont breed i have a rescue dog who was a racer but it dont mean i will let him off the lead to run a muck. And people who have phobias are not silly but absent minded people are!


 Are you really saying that your dog never gets to gallop off the lead? That he has to spend his whole life ambling at your pace? Well I'm afraid that, to me, is animal abuse!


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> EXACTLY where they cannot come into contact with other people or children and where they cannot get them selves in danger and injured them selves. for the dogs safety they should be on leads near roads amd shops etc thats not what i was saying , and just cause man decided to domesticate them not everyone would agree that its down to all off us I dont breed i have a rescue dog who was a racer but it dont mean i will let him off the lead to run a muck. And people who have phobias are not silly but absent minded people are!


I did not say that people with phobias were silly, I said the phobias themselves are silly. I used to be phobic over spiders - it was irrational and silly so I did something about it.
I agree that they should be on leads on roads etc. Dogs should be able to run on parks, common land etc. 
Your dog was a racer but he will never get to stetch his muscles, play with other dogs and use the body he was born with.
Surely we are all grateful to dogs who died during the war for us, guide dogs, Hearing dogs, police dogs, dogs who can detect cancer or predict seizures, search and rescue dogs, sheepdogs, PAT dogs, Dogs who give companionship to the lonely and love to those who have nobody. Like it or not WE ALL as a society benefit from dogs. It has even been suggested that the way we evolved as a species was influenced by our association with dogs. 
I don't breed dogs either and never have, although I don't see the relevance here?
If you can't train your dog to behave well off the lead, that's fine - keep it on a the lead but don't assume that we are all ineffective dog trainers.


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*hello*

missunderstood is what i often am, and yes i have a dog i have posted pics on here of him thank you , i will never put my dog at risk by allowing him off the lead as many things can put them in danger and apart from not wanting vet bills or my animal injured thats how it will be staying, if your dog is off running about and stands on broken glass it could completely severe the pad and do real damage, so if my dog is on a lead where i walk he walks and i know he is safe . 



fenwoman said:


> I take it you haven't a dog and don't understand the need for exersize? You also seem not to understand about training. Do you think that if a dog is off the lead that it randomly rampages all over the place completely out of control?
> If you aren't a girl, why is your username Miss understood?
> 
> As for me enjoying excersize, I think I get more than enough running my smallholding single handedly, heaving 25kg sacks of food, bales of hay and straw, mucking out etc. And luckily, since I have land, my dogs get to run about. However, I do take them out to the riverbank where they gallop like the wind across the fields and if they poo nobody is likely to step on it. If I take them into town, I also let them gallop like the wind on the rec' and if they poo, I pick it up.
> ...


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*ok*



fenwoman said:


> Are you really saying that your dog never gets to gallop off the lead? That he has to spend his whole life ambling at your pace? Well I'm afraid that, to me, is animal abuse!


 
well when he was adopted they evn gave me a muzzle he is meant to wear when out on a lead, and if you let an ex racer off the lead what do you think would happen specially if he saw a breed like you have a pomeranian so do you think thats cruel not allowing a dog that is trained to chase things to run riot?


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> missunderstood is what i often am, and yes i have a dog i have posted pics on here of him thank you , i will never put my dog at risk by allowing him off the lead as many things can put them in danger and apart from not wanting vet bills or my animal injured thats how it will be staying, if your dog is off running about and stands on broken glass it could completely severe the pad and do real damage, so if my dog is on a lead where i walk he walks and i know he is safe .


These are the kind of views I never expected to see on an animal forum. This is the kind of misinformed drivel I expect to see on the letters page of the local chip wrapper.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I feel that it is unfair of a dog to be expected to stay on a lead whenever it is out being exercised! Surely there must be a secure place where you can let your dog have a good run off-lead!


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

My dogs are walked on a leash near roads, however when they coe to the enclosed park that i take them to, they are allowed their leads off and they can run to their hearts content, thats not a lot of running where the rottie is concered but the GSD loves to run she never goes far and bolts back to me at the earliest opportunity to make sure im following lol.

Dogs need plenty of exercise to run off potential stresses and , in the case of my gsd (ex-cruelty case) , it helps me and her deal with any potential destructive behaviour. An exercised dog is a happier dog. And tbf a human cant always give a dog as much exercise as it needs, not only do you have breed differences you also have temperament and character differences.


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## Willythegame (Sep 20, 2008)

I have a rottweiler,I take him to my local playing field to exercise ,as these dogs NEED exercise to expend their energys less they be spent elsewhere.

If someone were to attack me,come into my home uninvited with the intent of causing harm I would be MORE than happy to allow my dog to take action.

Dogs need to socialise with other dogs in the way that pack animals do,this prevents agression in later life,this cannot be done on a piece of rope.
If you have a lap dog then fine,do not comment where you have no experience.


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*Right*

i wont bother posting on this thread any more but if you do care about your animals check every safety and animal charity site they all say the same,
also greyhounds dont need that much exercise alot of the time we have trouble getting zorro to go out he is so god damn lazy .
and chips are not wrapped in news paper anymore, 
so enjoy the rest of the thread pretending how much you care about your dogs when you are putting them in danger yourselves

*Neuter/spay your dog.* An unneutered dog is more than 3 times as likely to attack. 
*Socialize your dog.* Start when he is a young puppy, so he feels at ease with other people and animals. Expose your dog to a variety of situations gradually and under controlled circumstances. 
*Train your dog.* Teach basic commands. Take group puppy and adult obedience classes, which offer excellent opportunities for socialization. 
*Watch your dog.* Know your dog. Watch for signs your dog is uncomfortable or scared or angry. Dogs don't know how to cry, so a frightened dog's instinct is to bite. 
*Never leave a baby or small child alone with a dog.* 
*Always walk your dog on-leash.* And don't let a dog run out the door. 
*Don't play aggressive games with your dog.* No wrestling or tug-of-war. 
*Keep your dog healthy.* Have your dog vaccinated against rabies and other diseases. *Spend quality time with your dog.* Dogs are social animals. Neglected dogs have a greater tendency to develop behavior problems.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

mine are on the lead when walked. I'm not risking anything happening to them, not just to them but the consequences of *if* anything happens.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> missunderstood is what i often am,
> 
> 
> > Do you mean that you are often misunderstood? So why call yourself Miss?
> ...


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> mine are on the lead when walked. I'm not risking anything happening to them, not just to them but the consequences of *if* anything happens.


 Do your dogs never get to run Meko? They are never allowed to play the 'running fast shoulder barging' game, or chase a ball, or run hard and fast so that they come back to you all eyes aglow with a huge grin on their face, panting hard with tongue hanging out?

My eyes have seriously een opened on this thread. I never realised so many peoiple wouldn't allow their dogs to do anything more than a slow walk on the lead. I could cry at the thought of it all, I really could.Those poor poor dogs.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Nope.. i'd love to let them off but Rio was a stray that i got 6 years ago from the dogs home. He's never been too good with other dogs except Wils for some strange reason. 
Whenever i'm walking them and they're on the lead they both get arsey with other dogs, although Wils is fine with them in the vets.. just when walking her.

its not a case of i don't want them to have a run off the lead but they're not my pets they're part of my family. I don't want to risk them attacking another dog or another dog attacking them or something happening.

I get the tongue wagging and all that jazz in the house. They'll spend ages toy fighting and chasing each other round the house that they'll just collapse in a heap on the floor. some days they've knackered themselves out that much they don't need walking.

i do have a 6ft training lead so i'll take them out for a run round one of the local fields as well... not the same as letting them off for a run but like i said, even though i'd like to i don't want to risk it.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> i wont bother posting on this thread any more but if you do care about your animals check every safety and animal charity site they all say the same


Really? They all say that dogs should not be allowed to run and exersize properly?,


> also greyhounds dont need that much exercise alot of the time we have trouble getting zorro to go out he is so god damn lazy


I have had sight hounds all my life and sure, they don't need a lot of exersize, but they do need some.
.


> and chips are not wrapped in news paper anymore,


eh??? where did that come from? I've never wrapped my chips in anything. Where I come from, we eat off china plates.



> so enjoy the rest of the thread pretending how much you care about your dogs when you are putting them in danger yourselves


 statistically, accordig to you, since I have kept a lot of dogs, over a lot of years (never less than 5 dogs, and now up to 18) and exersizing them all off the lead, it's a miracle none of them has ever had a terrible accident befall it . Perhaps you have a theory why nothing has ever happened to any of my dogs, but it would be sure to happen to yours?
Just interested really.

*



Neuter/spay your dog.

Click to expand...

 no argument there.
*



> An unneutered dog is more than 3 times as likely to attack.


codswallop

*



Socialize your dog.

Click to expand...

*


> Start when he is a young puppy, so he feels at ease with other people and animals. Expose your dog to a variety of situations gradually and under controlled circumstances.


hardly world breaking news :lol2: 
*



Train your dog.

Click to expand...

*


> Teach basic commands. Take group puppy and adult obedience classes, which offer excellent opportunities for socialization


I've always trained mine by myself. Only classes I went to were ringcraft when I showed. Since you are unable to control your dog offlead, it's a bit odd you preaching to others to train theirs.

*



Watch your dog.

Click to expand...

*


> Know your dog. Watch for signs your dog is uncomfortable or scared or angry. Dogs don't know how to cry, so a frightened dog's instinct is to bite.


 not rocket science is it though?



> *Never leave a baby or small child alone with a dog.*


 you don't say (oops, no, you didn't say, you copied and pasted off someone's website):lol2: 
*



Always walk your dog on-leash.

Click to expand...

*


> And don't let a dog run out the door.


at least quote off a UK site as it'll be more relevant. Also take a look at many UK rescue sites which stress the need for proper off lead exersize.


*



Don't play aggressive games with your dog.

Click to expand...

*


> No wrestling or tug-of-war.


Oh no. You mean I'll never be able to play tug with Chalky or wrestle with big Ursa again or have I caused irretrievable damage by doing so which means they are now dangerous out of control beasts which will tear to pieces any human who they come across. Gawd help us all!!
*



Keep your dog healthy.

Click to expand...

*


> Have your dog vaccinated against rabies and other diseases.


Rabies? Rabies?!?! There is no rabies here in the fens. Is it bad where you live? 


*



Spend quality time with your dog.

Click to expand...

*


> Dogs are social animals. Neglected dogs have a greater tendency to develop behavior problems.


as are dogs which are not allowed to behave like dogs or run and jump and play.


You know sanctimony is never a nice trait to have.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

Dont play tug of war? I have seen this mentioned a few times on various dog sites and books etc and have to say it seems a load of shite to me. Maybe not a good idea with a dominant dog that is challenging you for top dog spot but no tug toys for all dogs? Just madness if you ask me.


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## Pliskens_Chains (Jun 8, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> *Don't play aggressive games with your dog.* No wrestling or tug-of-war.


ummmm in which case why do you often see animal proffesionals playing tug-of-war with rope toys with dogs. if these rope toys were going to make a dog vicious we would have all heard something more about it by now.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

i used to play it with Rio and he loved it.. 

can't play it with Wils because she's too thick and Rio doesn't have a bottom jaw to be able to hold it.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Meko said:


> Nope.. i'd love to let them off but Rio was a stray that i got 6 years ago from the dogs home. He's never been too good with other dogs except Wils for some strange reason.
> Whenever i'm walking them and they're on the lead they both get arsey with other dogs, although Wils is fine with them in the vets.. just when walking her.
> 
> its not a case of i don't want them to have a run off the lead but they're not my pets they're part of my family. I don't want to risk them attacking another dog or another dog attacking them or something happening.
> ...


 It could be that when they are on lead they are protective of you. Dogs on a lead do feel disadvantaged with other dogs that they don't know. I always insist on strange dog visitors to my home being introduced off lead to minimise any risk of fighting. Perhaps you could try muzzling and long lining them if you did want to train them and see how they actually reacted off lead? You might be surprised. And however much they leap about indoors, if they get exhausted by it, it merely shows them to be out of condition. There is no substiture for running as hard as they can, pacing each other, running shoulder to shoulder like the wind. Honestly there isn't. The look in their eyes cannot be taken for anything other than sheer joy at being alive as their sides heave for breath and their tonges loll almost to their knees.No money could buy that.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> well when he was adopted they evn gave me a muzzle he is meant to wear when out on a lead, and if you let an ex racer off the lead what do you think would happen specially if he saw a breed like you have a pomeranian so do you think thats cruel not allowing a dog that is trained to chase things to run riot?


 I understand about ex racers. I know many people with them. And yes, you could put a muzzle on him like their do while racing. This would ensure that he wasn't able to kill any small animal which ran fast, although the ex racers I know are pretty good but their owners still muzzle them to be on the safe side while running them off the lead along the riverbank and on the fields and *****.They don't run riot and aren't able to harm my little dogs either. I don't actually have Poms though. I tend not to take my little dogs out for a gallop as they are able to gallop fast on my land. However, the big dogs and chalky barely have time to get to top speed before they have to slow and stop again. If I had a couple or 3 acres, that would be different but I haven't so along the river bank we go. I really need to get a video camera to show you lead walkers the look on their faces after they've spent 10 minutes at top speed before coming back to me.


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## *H* (Jun 17, 2007)

I don't believe some people won't let their dogs off the lead!
I don't live out in the sticks but I find enough places to let them off where there is no other dogs and people about so they can just charge round like mad for a while. Even our local country park has it's quiet days/times where I can let them off, let them play and if anyone should come along a quick call back and them back on their leads untill we're alone again isn't that hard........
And as for pull ropes!! Hahahahahaha.........


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Aww Meko! You should come walkies with me & Evie on Moor Park with our dogs sometime! :2thumb:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> It could be that when they are on lead they are protective of you.


That is something that i'm not ruling out. If i take Rio to the vet he's snarling and snapping but if i take Wils she's fine unless there are too many dogs there and she starts growling under her breath.
I went to pick something up while walking her once and they had a dog and she was fine, just sat there grinning like a Blakey from On The Busses as usual.



> Dogs on a lead do feel disadvantaged with other dogs that they don't know. I always insist on strange dog visitors to my home being introduced off lead to minimise any risk of fighting. Perhaps you could try muzzling and long lining them if you did want to train them and see how they actually reacted off lead?


I have thought about the muzzles but again, with Rio and his lack of jaw its difficult as it wouldn't stay on. 
he has actually been off the lead with a friends dogs. Took about 10 minutes of him snarling and snapping before he calmed down and realised they were friendly. 



> You might be surprised. And however much they leap about indoors, if they get exhausted by it, it merely shows them to be out of condition.


lol, i don't think they're out of condition. they go mental for ages. it think it'd tire out most people / animals the way they go for it, especially Rio. Even after a 4 mile walk he's still wanting more but Wils will be done in... there's about a 10 year age gap between them with Rio being the oldest but more energetic.



> There is no substiture for running as hard as they can, pacing each other, running shoulder to shoulder like the wind. Honestly there isn't. The look in their eyes cannot be taken for anything other than sheer joy at being alive as their sides heave for breath and their tonges loll almost to their knees.No money could buy that.


i do want to try it, just finding the right place is difficult, mainly to put my mind at rest that they'll be ok and not bump into another dog where something happens and i lose 1 or both from it.. fighting or one having to be put down


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Aww Meko! You should come walkies with me & Evie on Moor Park with our dogs sometime! :2thumb:


 
i might just do that.. can only bring one though.. bloody nightmare walking them both together


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Aww Meko! You should come walkies with me & Evie on Moor Park with our dogs sometime! :2thumb:


 If me and 'Mr Big' (Ursa) are ever up near the north pole, can we come too?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Meko said:


> i might just do that.. can only bring one though.. bloody nightmare walking them both together


Yes, you should! Evie's dogs are amazingly well trained! My little old Jack Russell Terrier is a good 'un too! 

But would you still walk with us when I get my Chihuahua puppy Meko??? hehe


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Where i live there is a large open space of grass to the back and side of our house with a Woodland walk I open my back gate and it is about a foot away.I rarely lead walk my dogs, they got out in pairs and they run and wrestle.If I see someone I call them back to me and they stay until the person has passed but usually the person is coming over to ask if they can stroke them. Their is nothing as nice as seeing a couple of dogs running and chasing each other. I always have poo bags in case they relieve themselves. None of my dogs have ever bothered anyone when out as they are to interested in playing and chasing. I couldnt imagine a dog never having the chance to run and play surely this would build up into frustration


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> If me and 'Mr Big' (Ursa) are ever up near the north pole, can we come too?


Of course Fenny! And I have just noticed your new addition to your signature! I like it! hehe :2thumb:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Yes, you should! Evie's dogs are amazingly well trained! My little old Jack Russell Terrier is a good 'un too!
> 
> But would you still walk with us when I get my Chihuahua puppy Meko??? hehe


well trained dogs?? damn.. they'd make my two look even worse than they are..

suppose i could :whistling2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Of course Fenny! And I have just noticed your new addition to your signature! I like it! hehe :2thumb:


 Lol, it's only been there about 5 days hehe. I did it in your honour Zooey mate :flrt:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Meko said:


> well trained dogs?? damn.. they'd make my two look even worse than they are..
> 
> suppose i could :whistling2:


Yeah! Good on ya! :2thumb: hehe


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Reet well i'm off to bed.. got the car in the garage tomorrow so need to be up early.. and practise crying for when i get the bill


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Lol, it's only been there about 5 days hehe. I did it in your honour Zooey mate :flrt:


 Aww, thank you my dear! :flrt:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Meko said:


> Reet well i'm off to bed.. got the car in the garage tomorrow so need to be up early.. and practise crying for when i get the bill


Don't envy you there Meko!


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

*H* said:


> I don't believe some people won't let their dogs off the lead!
> I don't live out in the sticks but I find enough places to let them off where there is no other dogs and people about so they can just charge round like mad for a while. Even our local country park has it's quiet days/times where I can let them off, let them play and if anyone should come along a quick call back and them back on their leads untill we're alone again isn't that hard........
> And as for pull ropes!! Hahahahahaha.........


this isnt that easy - I live fairly inner city and tend to walk my dog late at night whereby all the parks are closed etc its fairly impracticle to suggest that I drive miles and miles late every night to find such an area - this thread is a bit of contradiction to be honest - yes its all well and good letting your dog off then if there is any risk - however minimal then it seems you risk facing prosecution and your dog being PTS as you havent been fully in control of your pet. FFS it seems that you cant win in this scenario - I for one would feel safe if my dog defended me but she is petrified of conflict as when my next door neighbour broke my fence down and threatened me with a piece of the broken fence (am trying to get her evicted and she doesnt lke it) then my dog was whining and between my legs petrified yet I have been banned from one local vets practise for her 'aggressive' behaviour and she cannot come into contact with other dogs or other animals for that matter as she has been severely abused and goes straight on the defensive and goes into attack mode and nothing has ever resolved this - as a mongrel her head shape is a bit odd and theres no proper muzzle that will fit her - she gotten out of them all including ones vets have fitted which leaves me petrified that she is going to be falsely accused of aggression when its a severe fear response she displays - she is let off the lead on few occassions whereby me and my husband are both out with her in the dead of night and in an area we have both spent time scouting for other animals and exit points until we are sure that she can be safely let off - she is getting on for 15 now so she cant run like she used to as her back legs are starting to stiffen quite a bit so its getting a bit easier now but its a bit of damned if you do damned if you dont on times - I personally despise loose dogs as yeah your dog may be alright but mine isnt and if she attacks yours and even though mine is on a lead and has ripped her muzzle off are you still going to e happy ??? This is the main reason that mine is walked at such stupid times to prevent this as I recognise that its my responsibility to control my pet but itshard on her and not her fault that other people take for granted that al other dogs are ok


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

and just to echo the origional posters view also that my dog is also NOT vicious - shes a product of human beings - ones that should be shot as a matter of fact!!!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

animal addict said:


> and just to echo the origional posters view also that my dog is also NOT vicious - shes a product of human beings - ones that should be shot as a matter of fact!!!


 So how long have you had her? Only a little while? If not, then why are you still excusing her bad behaviour as a result of some long ago abuse by some other people?
Being involved in rescue I have seen some really badly abused dogs and dogs with aggression problems. You have to work hard at it but anything can be overcome with common sense and firmness. Pandering to the behaviour and making excuses for it, will only lead to the problem never being cured. How you choose to walk your dog late at night with husband on the lookout in case any other dogs are about shows that you haven't addressed the problem head on and sorted it. She hasn't been made to stop her behaviour and sorry, she is aggressive. A dog which attacks others isn't doing it out fear. The fear bite comes only as a last resort if there is no other option and it can't get away. It isn't a first resort and initiated by the fearful dog.
I find it very sad that the lack of proper training and soem hard work with the help of professionals has meant that your dog hasn't been able to behave like a dog for most of her life.
And I don't buy the muzzle excuse. Unless she has a flat face like a pug or peke there are muzzles to fit any breed of dog, including boxers and rotties.
What usually happens is. Owner puts muzzle on dog, dog goes ballistic scratching at muzzle, owner says "oh oh we are being cruel, poor darling doesn't want it on" and takes it off, making excuses as to why their dog cannot wear a muzzle.
I have seen similar in dozens and dozens of cases and heard it many times via the advice line I run.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> All dogs should be on a leash! some people are genuinly scared of dogs big or small, and no matter how trained any dog is they can be potentually dangerous.
> I also think the person who started the thread who thinks its funny his dog pinned someone is an idiot as the dog didnt know the difference between playing and aggression so maybe its not so clever after all :bash:


 
You have no idea do you? How can you call someone an idiot when you know nothing about them? I thought it was funny as the one she pinned is a friend of mine, and i KNOW that my dog whould not have hurt him at all; she was just looking after her owner (me). I'm sure your comment would have been the total oposite if I had been attacked and my dog just sat and watched. God, clowns like you are the reason people start agrguing on this forum, and not just talking or giving advice!


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> *people open threads banging on about a dog that will attack specially if told* which i think was a rather stupid move to make : victory:


Better than doing it without being told.....:bash:


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> And whats to say one day its xmas evening and you and your brother in law are reinacting a scene from rambo and the dog wanders in to the room and gets the wrong idea!!!!
> 
> 
> Marina


She only ever shows any sign of aggression if there is any real danger. She knows the difference between fun and and a real problem. In fact, I have had a play fight in my house with someone she doesnt know, and she never bothered, as she knew he was a guest and not an intruder or attacker.

Also, she is kept in the kitchen with my other dog with a child gate seperating them from the livingroom as I have a little baby, and am not ready to let the dogs near him without me being there (say if I go to toilet, or outside for a cig). She only comes in the livingroom when I tell her she can, and only when I'm around or my little boy is in bed sleeping.



MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> may i add i am not a girl! but yes all dogs should be on a lead in a public place , and yes you may enjoy abit of exercise too aldo it is more likely if the dog is on a lead when it does its mess you are more likely to pick it up rather than trying to find where your dog has left it!:Na_Na_Na_Na: also if a dog is off the lead it could wander into an area not meant for dog walking and even into danger!


Dogs need to be able to RUN!!! A dog that never gets enough exercise is more likely to be aggressive and have behaviour problems. My dogs never go to toilet when off the lead (but they will pee) as they are trained (google it, just type in 'traing')



fenwoman said:


> Are you really saying that your dog never gets to gallop off the lead? That he has to spend his whole life ambling at your pace? Well I'm afraid that, to me, is animal abuse!


Agree 100%



MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> missunderstood is what i often am, and yes i have a dog i have posted pics on here of him thank you , i will never put my dog at risk by allowing him off the lead as many things can put them in danger and apart from not wanting vet bills or my animal injured thats how it will be staying, if your dog is off running about and stands on broken glass it could completely severe the pad and do real damage, so if my dog is on a lead where i walk he walks and i know he is safe .


I pitty your dog, I bet it is as bored as hell never getting a run. also, if ther is so much danger near you, then you must live in a war zone! God, you must live in a house of cotton wool if you're that paranoid about them being hurt. What if one goes to take a treat and bites its lip?? NOOOOO, VETS, AHHHHH!!!!



Andy said:


> Dont play tug of war? I have seen this mentioned a few times on various dog sites and books etc and have to say it seems a load of shite to me. Maybe not a good idea with a dominant dog that is challenging you for top dog spot but no tug toys for all dogs? Just madness if you ask me.


I agree with you.

My dogs love tug of war with me, and eachother. I have had dogs all my life and not yet seen it become aggressive. All I have to do to stop the game is say 'enough', and they stop and leave what they were playing with.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> She only ever shows any sign of aggression if there is any real danger. She knows the difference between fun and and a real problem. In fact, I have had a play fight in my house with someone she doesnt know, and she never bothered, as she knew he was a guest and not an intruder or attacker.
> 
> Also, she is kept in the kitchen with my other dog with a child gate seperating them from the livingroom as I have a little baby, and am not ready to let the dogs near him without me being there (say if I go to toilet, or outside for a cig). She only comes in the livingroom when I tell her she can, and only when I'm around or my little boy is in bed sleeping.
> 
> ...


 

Oi 7 of mine dont get everyday off lead exercise and they aint aggressive or nasty.........................so dont be putting onlead exercise down to aggression :bash:


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Most of mine have onlead exercise away from home and off lead at home in the garden. But I do have a very big garden, and I mean very big. Could fit another couple of semis with gardens lol
They aren't Aggressive at all. We do alot of mental work tho aswell. Like searching (sniffer work) and redoing basic training etc


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> Oi 7 of mine dont get everyday off lead exercise and they aint aggressive or nasty.........................so dont be putting onlead exercise down to aggression :bash:


I said 'more likely'. :bash:


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## Alex27 (Jul 26, 2008)

i had 2 alsation / dobermans that were soft as pig sh*t :lol2: and would only pull towards another dog or bark at another dog unless the other dorg barked or growled n then id just say no i could just walk them off the lead wereva i wanted n people said they were vicious "because of there breed"


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> I said 'more likely'. :bash:


And do you have facts that can back that up then ?


My huskies an sled breed are never let off lead unless in a secure and safe area..............no matter how you teach recall it dosnt work on the breed so its dangerous to let them off lead in public areas 

My rottie she stays on lead as i dont want some div head screaching and reporting me for having a big nasty rotty running round off lead...................also same goes with the staff 

so my springer is the only one i let off lead as she sticks by my side and dosnt move 


So unless you have solid facts that dogs will more likely become aggressive if not let off lead then dont say it 


All of my dogs get a couple of hours a week free running if my dad can take me down to the local park where they have enclosed courts.............but if he cant take us then its on lead walks 

Non of my dogs that i have brought up from pup or taken in are aggressive because of that....................


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I understand what you are saying that dogs should be off the lead to exercise. I wouldn't dream of never letting my two off the lead. Dogs need unstructure play and "dog" time. However this changes when other people are brought in to the mix. Dogs should NEVER EVER be allowed to approach other people or dogs until they are invited.

Dogs who show aggression in public are not nessecarily the product of their owners. Plenty of rescue dogs have issues. However they should be muzzled and their recuers should attempt to walk them at times where few people will be encountered and they should also be recieving rehab help with said issues! I'm not judgemental enough to persecute all dogs.

Dogs are dogs and will behave as such if you are stupid enough to dress your dog and treat it as a human being then you are opening yourself up to a whole world of trouble.

However incubus i stand by what i say your dog should not have to do this job you have asked it to do. It will only lead to trouble as you are not a professional dog trainer, you have no qualifications and no expert help.

Marina


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> It will only lead to trouble as you are not a professional dog trainer, you have no qualifications and no expert help.
> 
> Marina


 
I'm sorry, but you're wrong there. My first gsd was an ex-police dog who got bad hips, and the trainer is a friend of mine. She has helped me train all of my dogs as I loved the way my first one behaved. So yes, she has had professional training.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> I'm sorry, but you're wrong there. My first gsd was an ex-police dog who got bad hips, and the trainer is a friend of mine. She has helped me train all of my dogs as I loved the way my first one behaved. So yes, she has had professional training.


 
but she isnt wrong in the fact that...............your dog aint a police dog...........so has no right being in any person's face or area unless its invited


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> but she isnt wrong in the fact that...............your dog aint a police dog...........so has no right being in any person's face or area unless its invited


She has every right if she is protecting her 'pack'.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> She has every right if she is protecting her 'pack'.


 
For god sake she dosnt thats what you really aint getting........................the second she snarls never mind bites someone they have the god given right to put an order in for destruction 


WILL YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD 


If you whack a bugular on the head that breaks into your house you can get done for GBH FFS man 

Your heading for your dog being destroyed if you carryon letting her so called protect you


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> For god sake she dosnt thats what you really aint getting........................the second she snarls never mind bites someone they have the god given right to put an order in for destruction
> 
> 
> WILL YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD
> ...


If someone attacks my wife and I protect her, I am also liable for assault, but is that going top stop me? NO! Also, if a bugular falls down your stairs because you had, say a skateboard there, you can also be done, so does that mean I have to make my house safe for a bugular to come in and rob me?

If a bugular did break into my house, I would do what I had to to get them out without my stuff, and I wouldnt care what happened to me. but My dog would not bite them, she just woulnt let them past her. If they hit her, and she attacked, then thats another story.

As for you saying 'if you carry on letting her protect me', this is the first time she has done that, as it's not often someone grabs a bloke walking a big gsd. But as already stated, if someone is threatening my or my families safety, then she has every right to protect, and I think that most people would agree.


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Oh, and are you telling me that if you were waliking your dogs and someone attacked you, they would just watch?


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> If someone attacks my wife and I protect her, I am also liable for assault, but is that going top stop me? NO! Also, if a bugular falls down your stairs because you had, say a skateboard there, you can also be done, so does that mean I have to make my house safe for a bugular to come in and rob me?
> 
> If a bugular did break into my house, I would do what I had to to get them out without my stuff, and I wouldnt care what happened to me. but My dog would not bite them, she just woulnt let them past her. If they hit her, and she attacked, then thats another story.
> 
> As for you saying 'if you carry on letting her protect me', this is the first time she has done that, as it's not often someone grabs a bloke walking a big gsd. But as already stated, if someone is threatening my or my families safety, then she has every right to protect, and I think that most people would agree.


 
No she dosnt have a right just as you dont either 

LOL at the it wont stop me.................NO but the DEATH sentance no longer is in use here in the UK for people................BUT guess what it is for dogs 


SO NO NO NO she dosnt have a right to protect you not in the laws eyes...............it dosnt matter what anyone thinks its the law that counts and her protecting you is signing her death certificate and if you cant see that then i give up :bash::bash::bash:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> Oh, and are you telling me that if you were waliking your dogs and someone attacked you, they would just watch?


 
yeah my dogs are more likely to lick someone to death i aint trained them to attack as i would rather go to court for hitting someone than have to have one of them put to sleep for protecting me 


so i would get in the way I would rather take the bite from my own dogs than let someone else as I dont want to have my dogs put to sleep :bash::bash::bash:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Listen i know for a fact that if someone attacked me my dog would go ballistic. My bitch would scream and run away.

However in the eyes of the law you have no right to encourage your dog to behave this way. 

I joined this thread because i came very close to loosing my rottie via a destruction order because he managed to get his head through a bush and bark violently at a window cleaner in my neighbours garden. We got so scared that we immediatley put up a 6ft solid wood fence all the way around and we muzzled him in public just so we wouldnt have to go through it all again. I think its tainted us because we still avoid the genral public when we walk our dogs.

I couldnt bear loosing him or my little baby girl so we play down any naughty behaviour and avoid people we dont need to be around.

If you value your dogs/dog you will prevent anything that could risk her being taken away from you. The fact that you are already getting verbal complaints about her behaviour already says to me you are well on your way to a destruction order.

Please think of your dog and don't risk her life by training her to do things she shouldnt be doing!

Marina


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> yeah my dogs are more likely to lick someone to death i aint trained them to attack as i would rather go to court for hitting someone than have to have one of them put to sleep for protecting me
> 
> 
> so i would get in the way I would rather take the bite from my own dogs than let someone else as I dont want to have my dogs put to sleep :bash::bash::bash:


How on earth do you think you could get between them? I doubt saying "Hang on a minute mate, just hold off attacking me while I just get between you and my dog" would work.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> How on earth do you think you could get between them? I doubt saying "Hang on a minute mate, just hold off attacking me while I just get between you and my dog" would work.


 
MY DOGS ARE NEVER OFF LEAD.......................


i walk them in harnesses and have full control over them 100% of the time................

my dogs are trained to wait when i say wait an they do when on the lead 

I have a large pack of dogs so im used to getting into the middle of scuffles when i have to 

so would take me not even seconds to step in the middle of whats going on 

so dont partonise me :bash:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Oh an just to comment if you dont know the breed an temprement of a breed then dont tell me what it will an wont do...............someone could be murdering me and all my sled dogs would be bothered about would be saying hello to the person doing it......................thats the breed an what they are like :bash:


So no i dint get my dogs for protection i got my dogs for love of the darn breed


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Marinam2 said:


> Listen i know for a fact that if someone attacked me my dog would go ballistic. My bitch would scream and run away.
> 
> However in the eyes of the law you have no right to encourage your dog to behave this way.
> 
> ...


I always put my dog first, and also couldnt bare to lose her. I dont condone, or reward it. I am just trying say that if my family is in trouble, I am pleased she will help by 'holding' them. She has been trained well, and I know she will never hurt anyone as she is a softy. It's only when someone attacks her master that she will react (as most dogs will).

The complaints we have had are off stupid chavs that stand at our 6ft fence teasing her. Even then she just barks and comes to get me. I could even open the gate when they are winding her up and she wouldnt go near them, unless I said it was ok, and even then it would be for a stroke.

I have never told my dog to attack, and never will. the woman who helped train her has instructed me to never use an attack command (which I obviously already knew), and only use the 'hold' command when it is unavoidable.

It really saddens me that some of you think that I would risk my girls life by having her as an attack dog. You all know me, and my care for animals from my posts on here, and the ones with those comments should know better from my thousands of other posts.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> I always put my dog first, and also couldnt bare to lose her. I dont condone, or reward it. I am just trying say that if my family is in trouble, I am pleased she will help by 'holding' them. She has been trained well, and I know she will never hurt anyone as she is a softy. It's only when someone attacks her master that she will react (as most dogs will).
> 
> The complaints we have had are off stupid chavs that stand at our 6ft fence teasing her. Even then she just barks and comes to get me. I could even open the gate when they are winding her up and she wouldnt go near them, unless I said it was ok, and even then it would be for a stroke.
> 
> ...


 
But thing is i dont know you.................i dont see your other posts and i dont really tend to come out of this section so how am i supposed to know..............im not gonna read back all your history 

you come on this part of the forum having a go and laughing at the fact that your dog pinned someone..................how do you expect us to react ??

Look at the end of the day im in a daily battle at the moment trying to get a young puppy over aggression issues................i have been ripped to shreds by this pup.....................taming her trying to give her a fighting chance rather than handing her a death certificate 

So it pee's me off when people think its funny that their dogs have done something like this and that they have a right to 

So im sorry if i have been harsh in what i have said but there is a reason as you have just read :bash:


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> But thing is i dont know you.................i dont see your other posts and i dont really tend to come out of this section so how am i supposed to know..............im not gonna read back all your history
> 
> you come on this part of the forum having a go and laughing at the fact that your dog pinned someone..................how do you expect us to react ??
> 
> ...


I only laughed and thought it was funny as it was friend of mine, and he asked to buy her off me. If it was a total stranger, then there would have a been some serious training going into my Kiya. But, if it were a stranger, I doubt he would have gone for me.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Incubuss said:


> I only laughed and thought it was funny as it was friend of mine, and he asked to buy her off me. If it was a total stranger, then there would have a been some serious training going into my Kiya. But, if it were a stranger, I doubt he would have gone for me.


 
yeah but can you see the point of why people have disagreed with you ?


this section that people spend alot of time in see alot of unpleasant things happen with dogs............be it them in rescue or with owners 

so people can get touchy about it 

The point i was trying to get across to you is you and your dog have no right in the laws eyes to be sorting anyone out for protection or any other reason...............that is the laws job not yours


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Emma I love you :flrt::lol2: That is the point I was trying to get across, I am a fully trained in canine behaviour, training and welfare, all the time I was at college I was working in a kennels where dogs go that have been reported dangerous came while there fate was decided, some of them it was the dog just running up to them and scaring the person, never mind jumping up and "holding" the person. How many of them dogs do you think went home?

I have trained most breeds of dog, and I have coming a trained prison dog, but no way will he be allowed to do what your dogs doing Lee I have seen them poor dogs put to sleep due to the owners been bloody idiots and thinking its funny. I'm sorry I don't care about you, but I care about the dog, I will always remember them poor dogs that had to be PTS due to owners thinking it was funny

My dogs (6 labs (soon to be 8) and one Northern Inuit) are walked on the leads till they get to a private area where I know they can run and play away from the public (on the local Army base) Or I walk them up to the river where I can walk in the oppiste direction from the main walkers area, As all my dogs are friendly and will run up to people but not all people are dog people and it might scare them so I am not taking the chance of losig any of my dogs

Rant over:censor:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Well said Emma too many dogs lose thier lives due to the wrong training by their owners:bash: as you have found out with your pup


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

bosshogg said:


> Emma I love you :flrt::lol2: That is the point I was trying to get across, I am a fully trained in canine behaviour, training and welfare, all the time I was at college I was working in a kennels where dogs go that have been reported dangerous came while there fate was decided, some of them it was the dog just running up to them and scaring the person, never mind jumping up and "holding" the person. How many of them dogs do you think went home?
> 
> I have trained most breeds of dog, and I have coming a trained prison dog, but no way will he be allowed to do what your dogs doing Lee I have seen them poor dogs put to sleep due to the owners been bloody idiots and thinking its funny. I'm sorry I don't care about you, but I care about the dog, I will always remember them poor dogs that had to be PTS due to owners thinking it was funny
> 
> ...


 
Clare i had a scare with my mal x so guy that hates dogs tried to pretend that he had bitten him when we were over the other side of the road to him 

fortunately i had a witness which thank fully was the dog warden on his rounds checking for no picker upers of poo 

but if it aint been for him marni could have not been with me today


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Well said Emma too many dogs lose thier lives due to the wrong training by their owners:bash: as you have found out with your pup


 
Its heart breaking to watch a 4 month old pup screaming cos you have to pin her down so that she cant bite you and to tell her that no your not boss i am 

i am having to do that at least once a day.................but when she 1st got here it was every 2 mins 


its heart breaking it really is but its gonna be bloody well worth it :2thumb:


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Incubus i don't know you either. I've never met you or your dog or seen any of your pets in pictures.

So my opinion and what i have said to you was based purely on your initial post and then the reaction to your defensive accusations.

Marina


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Several posts have been edited for language/insults.

The thread seems back on track now, but this is obviously a touchy subject, please lets keep it on track and no more personal attacks so that it doesn't end up closed.


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

I can see both sides of this argument here.

A dog with protection training is as good as walking around with a loaded gun and if you dont use some common sense, in this day and age, it will end in a destruction order.

But a trained protection dog needn't be a cause for concern for the general public. They shouldn't even be able to tell the dog has that side to it as the dog shouldn't act off its own back in all but one situation. And a PP trained dog is/can be just as nice and friendly as any other dog.

The proper way to train a PP dog is not to make it aggressive, that is not the aim at all, but to make the whole thing a sort of game to the dog.

In the eyes of the law you are never aloud to let your dog hold, attack, or bark at another person and doing so is going to get you and the dog in trouble, but, if your fear your life is in immediate danger then its a different story but its not clear cut, black and white.

Trouble is, who's to say your life was in immediate danger??? Without witnesses it can be a tough thing to prove. If its in public then matters are complicated even more so. But if, when it goes to court, you can prove, or are believed that your life was in danger, then its a matter of self defense. Even then there are a few things to consider like reasonable force? You cant just let your dog rip someones throat out in the name of self defence which is where proper training comes in to play. You dont really want the dog to ''attack'' ever, more neutralize the threat by holding.

It is obviously a very grey area and I very much doubt this debate will ever come to an end, but what i will say is that a PP dog with the correct training and handler is not a threat to anyone, and doesnt have to lead a life much different to a normal 'pet' dog, they dont require special treatment as such, or muzzles or anything like that because they should be stable, even tempered, well trained coupled with a handler who knows the potential and applies some sense.

And just to add, there was a recent case involving a large English mastiff. The mastiff was a pet dog and i dont believe he had any special training. A man entered there property and was attacked by the dog. There were no other persons involved, just burgular and said dog. No case was brought upon its owners. and below is a quote from the article.

_*''If the burglar decided to make a complaint, Mr Watson could not be prosecuted under the Dangerous Dogs Act because the incident took place on his private property.''*_

Burglar makes the mistake of choosing 22-stone mastiff's home to rob | Mail Online


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I find it very sad that the lack of proper training and soem hard work with the help of professionals has meant that your dog hasn't been able to behave like a dog for most of her life.


And I find it very sad that you are so judgemental and dont bother finding out all of the details prior to making stupid comments like that - as it goes my dog has seen numerous specialists trainers, behaviourists and vets over the years - I cant be bothered to go into all the details as it wont make any difference to some-one as opinionated as yourself and think that you have the answer to my dogs problems when in fact you dont and you dont know half the story - prefering to think you know better hence why you make comments like you do - as a matter of fact she does wear a muzzle and no we dont say 'oh poor darling etc etc' as you so kindly put shes a dog its tough she has to put up with it as she doesnt behave its just she can when she really wants to get it off and has done so on occassions - sometimes you have to accept that you dont have all the answers and that sometimes there is always an animal that goes against the grain no matter what - as I have said I have taken her to numerous specialists and although we have improved her a lot no-one can understand why the problems are so deep seated that they havent been able to stop the behaviour so it is at THEIR recommendation that my dog is to have as little contact with other dogs as possible and is walked at unsociable hours as I dont want her destroyed. As Marina says its is the owners responsibility to make sure that their dog and others are safe and that must always be a priority.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

rakpeterson said:


> I can see both sides of this argument here.
> 
> A dog with protection training is as good as walking around with a loaded gun and if you dont use some common sense, in this day and age, it will end in a destruction order.
> 
> ...


 
yeah an that said................where do you know when to draw the line ??? i mean seems in the law there are different rules for different people 

A friend of mines friend was prosecuted because he hit a burglar with a base ball bat he also had to have his dog put to sleep because it bit the person that broke in .............he got a big fine an community service for whacking someone trying to steal his pocessions on his own private property and his dog was put to sleep because it was defending its owner and bit the person that broke into their own private property


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> yeah an that said................where do you know when to draw the line ??? i mean seems in the law there are different rules for different people
> 
> A friend of mines friend was prosecuted because he hit a burglar with a base ball bat he also had to have his dog put to sleep because it bit the person that broke in .............he got a big fine an community service for whacking someone trying to steal his pocessions on his own private property and his dog was put to sleep because it was defending its owner and bit the person that broke into their own private property


thats majorly crap!!!! The law always seems to protect the ones it shouldnt - my next door neighour broke my fence down and was threatening to hit me with a piece of the wood in my garden - I pushed her back into her own garden telling her to get lost and the police told me I maybe done for assault!!!! Never mind she was kicking my front door through destroyed my fence and was threatening to kill me and have my husband done over - its stupid (they didnt do me for assault in the end hough coz next door tried to attack them also when they went to speak to her and lo and behold you cant touch a copper so they carted her off straight away!!)


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> yeah an that said................where do you know when to draw the line ??? i mean seems in the law there are different rules for different people
> 
> A friend of mines friend was prosecuted because he hit a burglar with a base ball bat he also had to have his dog put to sleep because it bit the person that broke in .............he got a big fine an community service for whacking someone trying to steal his pocessions on his own private property and his dog was put to sleep because it was defending its owner and bit the person that broke into their own private property


And I agree it is a very rocky subject and I dont think that any part of the DDA makes any kind of provision for a situation occuring on your own property as such but I used it to demonstrate that depending on the circumstances, it is a factor that is taken in to consideration.

Obviously I dont know the case surrounding your friend at all so cannot really comment on it but it does seem to be quite dependant on who hears the case as well as other factors. Possibly it was deemed that a baseball bat and a dog was unreasonable force, and possibly the dog acted without command in a situation where the persons life was not in immediate danger, or could not be proved as such. Could even come down to the fact one solicitor is better than the other or the judges personal bias.

I totally agree that it is a bit of a minefield and that is the problem with the DDA (and BSL. for that matter) its a bit to general and sweeping.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

animal addict said:


> thats majorly crap!!!! The law always seems to protect the ones it shouldnt - my next door neighour broke my fence down and was threatening to hit me with a piece of the wood in my garden - I pushed her back into her own garden telling her to get lost and the police told me I maybe done for assault!!!! Never mind she was kicking my front door through destroyed my fence and was threatening to kill me and have my husband done over - its stupid


 
I know that one only too well where I used to live. My neighbours were a living nightmare, trying to kill our pets, being abussive, racist etc. and nothing was done even tho we had proof! yet when they grouped together and lied to the police saying i had been trying to kick her door down threatening to kill her, and even tho i actually had a number of wittnesses who could prove where i was the whole night, I was arrested, on bail for 4 months where i was allowed home in the day to look after the kids but not allowed to sleep at home!!!!! go f***ing figure that one!!!
It was dropped after cps decided they didn't have a case but my life had been made an absolute hell because of it.


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

bleeding hell pimperella!!! thats seriously bad!!! unbelievable that you should have to go through something like that!!


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

animal addict said:


> bleeding hell pimperella!!! thats seriously bad!!! unbelievable that you should have to go through something like that!!


 
Aye, had a nervous breakdown because of it, totally distroyed me aswell.
But believe it or not, a mum with postnatal depression will never get anywhere when face with old twisted sickos who hate you because a neighbours kid couldn't get a mortgage on the house we bought and that I wasn't Racist like they are.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

animal addict said:


> thats majorly crap!!!! The law always seems to protect the ones it shouldnt - my next door neighour broke my fence down and was threatening to hit me with a piece of the wood in my garden - I pushed her back into her own garden telling her to get lost and the police told me I maybe done for assault!!!! Never mind she was kicking my front door through destroyed my fence and was threatening to kill me and have my husband done over - its stupid (they didnt do me for assault in the end hough coz next door tried to attack them also when they went to speak to her and lo and behold you cant touch a copper so they carted her off straight away!!)


 
erm.................yeah you was the one that pushed her dont tell me im talking crap ok................she didnt hit you with the wood or lay a hand on you though she threatened it was you that used physical contact not her 

I wasnt pointing out if it was right or wrong to have hit the buglar just that the law seems to have rules for one lot of people then a different set for others 

in my eyes you have no right what so ever to lay your hands on anyone else you have no rights to do so at all


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> erm.................yeah you was the one that pushed her dont tell me im talking crap ok................she didnt hit you with the wood or lay a hand on you though she threatened it was you that used physical contact not her
> 
> I wasnt pointing out if it was right or wrong to have hit the buglar just that the law seems to have rules for one lot of people then a different set for others
> 
> in my eyes you have no right what so ever to lay your hands on anyone else you have no rights to do so at all


I think they were trying to say what happened to the person was crap, not that youre talking crap. Thats the thing about the Net, it does cause confusion as you cant see/hear the person. 

On another note, the police here are really good. A guy broke into our house and my Great Dane jumped on him and knocked him over. He didnt bite him, but he was trying to protect us. The police more or less said tough tit to the guy and told us we didnt have to worry about anymore action. Maybe it would have been different if Blue bit him but the police told us they werent gonna report a dog that was protecting its property/ owners.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

daikenkai said:


> I think they were trying to say what happened to the person was crap, not that youre talking crap. Thats the thing about the Net, it does cause confusion as you cant see/hear the person.
> 
> On another note, the police here are really good. A guy broke into our house and my Great Dane jumped on him and knocked him over. He didnt bite him, but he was trying to protect us. The police more or less said tough tit to the guy and told us we didnt have to worry about anymore action. Maybe it would have been different if Blue bit him but the police told us they werent gonna report a dog that was protecting its property/ owners.


 
me scanning through it quick either probs dint help:bash::lol2:


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## MISSUNDERSTOOD (Nov 8, 2008)

*Thank you*

thank god for people like mirinam2 and emmaj, I have been told i am cruel to my animal cause i keep him safe? well shame on you the few on here who dont think animals should be kept on a lead unless in a very safe secure area.

incubuss i know i dont know you but fancy putting some of the absoloute rubbish you have put, and fenwoman who seems to argue the toss about everything, you dont know everything your still in the dark ages hun 
I do love my dog but if i can keep him safe save me vet bills etc i will do it, i have a friend with 8 lurchers and 2 have been seriously injured lately one almost died due to an artery getting cut and the other nearly lost a front leg due to barb wire neither of these dogs would of gone through this if they had of been on a lead.


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## 11krage (Mar 9, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> thank god for people like mirinam2 and emmaj, I have been told i am cruel to my animal cause i keep him safe? well shame on you the few on here who dont think animals should be kept on a lead unless in a very safe secure area.
> 
> incubuss i know i dont know you but fancy putting some of the absoloute rubbish you have put, and fenwoman who seems to argue the toss about everything, you dont know everything your still in the dark ages hun
> I do love my dog but if i can keep him safe save me vet bills etc i will do it, i have a friend with 8 lurchers and 2 have been seriously injured lately one almost died due to an artery getting cut and the other nearly lost a front leg due to barb wire neither of these dogs would of gone through this if they had of been on a lead.


But surely a lot of it depends on where you are located and what kind of training your dog has gone through to what extent.

My family's house in somerset is right next to a group of umpteen acres and acres of fields that are part of public footpath. They are fenced up to certain degrees to the extent that anything that might seem tempting is off limits. A very stubborn ingenious wandering dog might be able to get out by navigating through 10 fields through various hidden gates and paths, but if you have a dog with basic recall and scout first in sheep season then I feel safe letting the dog off the lead for the whole 1 - 4 hour walk.

Now I know this doesn't count for some breeds or dogs, but if you have a good area for it without the barbed wire and such like and a dog who has their recall and heel down and isn't prone to disapearing and not coming back at a moments notice then my stance would be off the lead is best. 

My housemate walks her dogs off the lead along a channel near our house, now at some points up a couple of flights of steps the roads not too far off but her dog never goes up those steps without her permission, always immediantly goes to her side when called and stays in eyeshot. Theres nothing wrong with that situation and provided the requirements are met for the dog to stay safe and its fesiable for the dog I think off the lead is the ideal situation.


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

Just thought id add, Ive known a few people who race Greyhounds or keep ex-racers and a few of the ex-racers really are too far gone to let them off leash or not to wear a muzzle. 
Even then, a guy who used to live across the road thought his ex-racer was rehabilitated until it got hold of a little poddle. That was terrible, the wee dog lost a leg and an eye. 
So when it comes to ex-racers, i do believe extreme caution should be taken when letting them in parks where other dogs roam. 

BUTi used to let Blue off-lead in parks every day. He was well trained and would stop on command. Even if someones ankle-biter did attack him (as it seems some people with little dogs think its funny when it attacks a big dog) Blue didnt even bat an eyelid. Im sure he thoght they were playing infact. lol


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

Theres nothing to stop people getting on their skates and running with dogs that way with them on the lead but they do need to be run or sprinted.

Marina


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> well shame on you the few on here who dont think animals should be kept on a lead unless in a very safe secure area.


 You are the one who came and passed judgement on everyones right to exercise their dogs as they see fit. It is my opinion that everyones dog is their own responsibility. If someone has a dog they do not consider to be safe or sufficiently trained to be off the lead in a park or field, then they should keep it on a lead. Some people are lucky enough to have dogs who are well behaved off the lead for some free running exercise. I have never judged anyone for the way they choose to exercise their dog and I don't expect people to get on my case because I have worked hard to train and socialise my dogs so that I can give them the best quality of life possible. 

I acknowledge that your dog would be difficult to train because of his past experience, but that does not mean it isn't possible. Do you take it to a training class? I know someone with an ex racer that free runs with other dogs of all shapes and sizes (albeit on private land).


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

animal addict said:


> thats majorly crap!!!! The law always seems to protect the ones it shouldnt - my next door neighour broke my fence down and was threatening to hit me with a piece of the wood in my garden - I pushed her back into her own garden telling her to get lost and the police told me I maybe done for assault!!!! Never mind she was kicking my front door through destroyed my fence and was threatening to kill me and have my husband done over - its stupid (they didnt do me for assault in the end hough coz next door tried to attack them also when they went to speak to her and lo and behold you cant touch a copper so they carted her off straight away!!)


 Crumbs, you really have the knack for making enemies don't you:lol2:
I think there is a book called 'how to win friends and influence people' that might prove useful


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Just before dusk tonight I put Ursa, Chalky and Urian my large lurcher, in the back of the frontie and drove down to the riverbank. I parked up and set off. I walked about half a mile and the dogs did about 2 miles. They jump out of the car and wait until I tell them "go" and chalky and Ursa shoot off like they were fired out of a cannon at full pelt and disappear into the distance. When they are little tiny specks, I call "Ursa....help!!!"
It's the one thing guaranteed 100% to bring him back at a gallop. Chalky still isn't reliable at recall on his own but follows Ursa so by calling Ursa, Chalky gets into the habit of coming back. When they can see me, I encourage them to run even faster by leaping about cheering them on.
They get fussed and sent off again. Then I chucked clods of earth and pebbles across one of the fields which had been rough ploughed prior to harrowing. They can't go as fast across it but get better muscle exersize having to scramble and leap over the furrows. Normally if the weather is warmer, Chalky also swims.
The lurcher is loath to leave my side but I try to encourage him and he did one fast gallop. Boy can he shift his ass when he wants. Mind you, for a huge dog , my Ursa comes at you like a charging bull. We met another couple of dogs on the other side of the river, a GSD and retriver also walked by a lady. It sort of crossed my mind that I was way out in the midle of the fens with no houses near and no roads (safe dog galloping land) and that if someone wanted to jump me, I certainly couldn't fight them off. However, one high pitched scream of "Ursa help" would have him back beside me in an instant and I know he would probably attack anyone attacking me, howver when we have, in the past, met joggers and hikers, he is his usual friendly self.
The same plan is in place as was in place for my Kip. No dog of mine will ever be killed if it defended me in a time of real need.
We all thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. The dogs were exhausted and grinning from ear to ear and I also enjoyed striding out in a brisk walk in the fresh cold air with nothing but nature and open fields around me. I'd hate to live in a town.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

i would like to apologise to animal addict as i got on my high horse without reading properly so i do apologise your post wasnt aimed at me :lol2:

Gosh i had my knickers in a twist earlier im sorry animal addict : victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i just have a cross-breed but she's very nice.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

My pooch doesn't get let off the lead if there are other people about with dogs because he just bolts for them and ignores me! I can recall him fine when there is nothing else there he will come to me no problem but as soon as there is another dog he will just leg it over to play.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

MISSUNDERSTOOD said:


> thank god for people like mirinam2 and emmaj, I have been told i am cruel to my animal cause i keep him safe? well shame on you the few on here who dont think animals should be kept on a lead unless in a very safe secure area.
> 
> incubuss i know i dont know you but fancy putting some of the absoloute rubbish you have put, and fenwoman who seems to argue the toss about everything, you dont know everything your still in the dark ages hun
> I do love my dog but if i can keep him safe save me vet bills etc i will do it, i have a friend with 8 lurchers and 2 have been seriously injured lately one almost died due to an artery getting cut and the other nearly lost a front leg due to barb wire neither of these dogs would of gone through this if they had of been on a lead.


i have 3 dogs my retriever is kept on a lead at all times as he can be a little bugger with other dogs .....but my lurcher and my springer/collie cross would go crazy if they had to stay on a lead all the tiime ..they both have bags of energy ...if being street walked yes they are on leads but in a field or down the river they are off lead all the time both are great on recall .......and the springer x will also look after me although i dont think she would bite ( but she may who kknows) she has been known to bark fiercly at people who grab me even if its messing


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Here's a pic of my boys playing with some new friends


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Evie that is such a happy photo:2thumb:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Evie that is such a happy photo:2thumb:


Thank you Shell - it's to make up for my stroppiness last night :lol2:
Raf (the black one) was soooo in love with those girls :flrt:


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## Incubuss (Dec 19, 2006)

This is going to be my last post on this thread, and this section as most of you on this section of the forum are total idiots who 'think' they are the dogs b:censor:s. so from now on, I will stick to the reptile and invert sections as the people who post on there aren't stupid enough to think that another personas opinion is wrong, offensive, or cruel. All you lot on here think you're cesar millan, and believe your opinion is the only way a dog should be treat.

Just because someone elses dog is trained in a different way to yours, doesnt mean the training is wrong or bad. I bet all of you have trained your dogs alone, and not had PROFESSIONAL help like I have, so it doesnt take an idiot (so some of you wont get it then) to understand that my dog is trained well now does it?

At first all the comments were of praise, yet there are the odd few who think ganging up on someone is a good idea and may make them change their ways, even though they aint wrong.

:censor::censor::censor:!!!

If any of you have anything else to say to me, do it via PM as I will not be visiting this section of the forum ever again, well it is a reptile forum after all.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Well i feel like crap an have had a rubbish day but that made me smile and.............

my only comment to that is 

:lol2:


*takes a bow an leaves the thread*


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Just before dusk tonight I put Ursa, Chalky and Urian my large lurcher, in the back of the frontie and drove down to the riverbank. I parked up and set off. I walked about half a mile and the dogs did about 2 miles. They jump out of the car and wait until I tell them "go" and chalky and Ursa shoot off like they were fired out of a cannon at full pelt and disappear into the distance. When they are little tiny specks, I call "Ursa....help!!!"
> It's the one thing guaranteed 100% to bring him back at a gallop. Chalky still isn't reliable at recall on his own but follows Ursa so by calling Ursa, Chalky gets into the habit of coming back. When they can see me, I encourage them to run even faster by leaping about cheering them on.
> They get fussed and sent off again. Then I chucked clods of earth and pebbles across one of the fields which had been rough ploughed prior to harrowing. They can't go as fast across it but get better muscle exersize having to scramble and leap over the furrows. Normally if the weather is warmer, Chalky also swims.
> The lurcher is loath to leave my side but I try to encourage him and he did one fast gallop. Boy can he shift his ass when he wants. Mind you, for a huge dog , my Ursa comes at you like a charging bull. We met another couple of dogs on the other side of the river, a GSD and retriver also walked by a lady. It sort of crossed my mind that I was way out in the midle of the fens with no houses near and no roads (safe dog galloping land) and that if someone wanted to jump me, I certainly couldn't fight them off. However, one high pitched scream of "Ursa help" would have him back beside me in an instant and I know he would probably attack anyone attacking me, howver when we have, in the past, met joggers and hikers, he is his usual friendly self.
> ...


Fenny, you should build a granny flat on the side of your house for me, Clark & our zoo to come & live in the Fens with you! :2thumb:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Evie said:


> Here's a pic of my boys playing with some new friends


Evie, Carrick looks like he is laughing at Rafiki trying it on with a skanky Weimaraner! :lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Evie said:


> Here's a pic of my boys playing with some new friends


 And look at their faces and tell me that those aren't huge big grins!:flrt:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Fenny, you should build a granny flat on the side of your house for me, Clark & our zoo to come & live in the Fens with you! :2thumb:


Funny you say that, I have a massive bit to the side of my cottage which would fit one of those double park homes things. The fens are brilliant dog walki9ng country. Not only do I have the fens to wander along in,but Heacham beach only an hour away, desolate and deserted in winter, miles and miles of empty sand to run along and breakwaters to jump while chasing seagulls. The dogs enjoy themselves too. And then afterwards, hot fish and chips in the car which gets all steamed up by the steam off the fishg and chips and hot wet dogs who insist on having a bag of 'scraps' to themselves in the back, then home again to a roaring fire while the dogs all flake out on their sofa.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Fenny that sounds like heaven:flrt:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Fenny that sounds like heaven:flrt:


It is. On my river walk there is always something different to see. At this time of year, plenty of waterfowl about and no people, in May there is usually a 10 acre field of rapeseed which makes it seem like the sun is shining even on a dull day and the perfume almost makes you feel drunk. It's absolutely glorious. I save the seaside runs for winter where I wrap up warm and enjoy the brisk north winds coming straight from Siberia. Alone apart from my dogs and the seagulls.
The only people I really see along my favourite walk is occasionally fishermen sitting down the banks near the water sheltered from the winds.
My big giant schnauzer girl had a really terrible sense of humour. I'd watch her tippy toe-ing up behind the fisherman until she was only a few feet away, and then give the most enormous "woof!". Several lost fishing rods, a couple lost their packed lunches, but her best one actually had the bloke leap straight into the air without looking behind him, and land in the water. There was no malice intended and she only did the one woof, before trotting back up the bank to me wagging her stump of a tail. I had to apologise profusely to them and so did she, going up to them all friendly and happy. Luckily, not one of them got mad, even the wet one.I suppose it helps in such a remote rural area that most of the fishermen will know me by sight if not by name and know that the dogs aresn't savage and that I'll have them under control. Harley is long dead now but every time I walk down that bit, I see her, slinking up all quiet behind some poor fisherman, intent on watching his rod or unwrapping his sarnies before being scared out of his skin by my big bad black dog.
The worst that'll happen with Ursa is that he'll be so dopey wanting to say hello and leaping about ,like a loon that he'll end up knocking someone in to the water.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Fenny that sounds like heaven:flrt:


 Hey Shell, get lost, I got there first - its MY granny flat!!! GGggrrrrrr

:lol2:


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

Emmaj said:


> i would like to apologise to animal addict as i got on my high horse without reading properly so i do apologise your post wasnt aimed at me :lol2:
> 
> Gosh i had my knickers in a twist earlier im sorry animal addict : victory:


thats ok hun no it wasnt aimed at you at all - I should have paragaphed a bit better to separate the 2 comments and the other person who commented was entirely right - I meant majorly crap to what happened to the person you were talking about!!

Fenwoman - please try reading posts correctly before you comment, again you jump to wrong conclusions.


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## animal addict (Jun 1, 2008)

Marinam2 said:


> Theres nothing to stop people getting on their skates and running with dogs that way with them on the lead but they do need to be run or sprinted.
> 
> Marina


:lol2: I think I would be more dangerous than any dog doing that :lol2:
but no its true - my friend does this for me with my hound - she loves it and its well funny to watch - he is awesome on skates though


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Hey Shell, get lost, I got there first - its MY granny flat!!! GGggrrrrrr
> 
> :lol2:



Hey, play nicely or I'll smack both your bums :whip:
On my 'to do' list for next year. Buy a mobile home, kit it out with every luxury like cold running water from a tap, not down the walls, a bed (straw in a sack on a pallet), lighting (get council to put a street lamp on the verge nearby) and heating (as many dogs as want to sleep with you).It'll be well insulated (the sacks of feed stored around the walls inside do a great job of insulating). I'll shove a big sign on top all lit up with fairy lights saying 'RFUK Hilton', and do B&B (Basic & Barely-habitable) for very reasonable rates to any members wishing to take advantage of this fantastic dog walking area. I can start taking bookings and deposits right away so get your name down quick cos I expect it to be fully booked right away and would hate anyone to be disappointed.(You may be very disappointed when you actually see the place but by then I'll have yer money and there ain't no refunds chum.:lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Still sounds good to me Pam. Erm Colin me and Fenny have history:whistling2: so push off, unless ya want to share but I get Ursa you can have one of the little uns. God I hope ya dont snore though:lol2: Pretty lights do it for me and a heap of dogs sounds wonderful. Some of us townies prefer basics as long as very few people about.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok shell, I'm up for sharing! hehe


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Ok shell, I'm up for sharing! hehe


Hey Shell, we can always make a Colin sarnie :lol2::blush:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Hey Shell, we can always make a Colin sarnie :lol2::blush:


 Can I just point out that it is too far for Colin to commute to work from the fens - so kindly stop stealing my right hand man :lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Pam I have just spat my drink everywhere:lol2::lol2::lol2: Evie you can join in if ya want but it would be a tight squeeze:lol2: Isnt he allowed a holiday then? You could always entertain Clarke so hes not lonely:whistling2:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> Pam I have just spat my drink everywhere:lol2::lol2::lol2: Evie you can join in if ya want but it would be a tight squeeze:lol2: Isnt he allowed a holiday then? You could always entertain Clarke so hes not lonely:whistling2:


I can imagine Clarkes look of horror if he reads this :lol2:
He can have a holiday............. but it's boring at work without him so not too long :whip:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

OMG!!! WHat is this, an RFUK orgy??? haha

And Evie (Helen) is right, work would be just too boring without me singing & dancing around the shop! haha


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

And if I wasn't there at the shop, there would be no-one to pee their pants laughing at Evie on her hands & knees under the fish tanks with a burst pipe & water sloshing everywhere looking like a muppet with a suprised look on her face! HAHAHA


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> And if I wasn't there at the shop, there would be no-one to pee their pants laughing at Evie on her hands & knees under the fish tanks with a burst pipe & water sloshing everywhere looking like a muppet with a suprised look on her face! HAHAHA


Yes you were most helpful!!! and I spent the rest of the day cold, wet and the subject of ridicule. :whip:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Evie said:


> Can I just point out that it is too far for Colin to commute to work from the fens - so kindly stop stealing my right hand man :lol2:


If he moves here he won't have to work. He can be a kept man :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ooo, I like the sound of that Fenny! 

And I have never had so many ladies fighting over me before! I'm flattered!


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> If he moves here he won't have to work. He can be a kept man :Na_Na_Na_Na:


You'd soon send him back Fenny, he ain't all that :lol2:
He's going to be unbearable tomorrow thinking he is though. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Oi Helen!!!! How dare you!!! I am lovely!!! I should post a pic for you ladies to see eh? Maybe showing my bod! hehe

BTW Helen, I have no bruise on my thigh you'll be gald to hear!


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Oi Helen!!!! How dare you!!! I am lovely!!! I should post a pic for you ladies to see eh? Maybe showing my bod! hehe
> 
> BTW Helen, I have no bruise on my thigh you'll be gald to hear!


Yup, hearing is quite good enough thanks......my eyes.....on your thighs....ooh quick fenny it rhymes make a poem :lol2:


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> OMG!!! WHat is this, an RFUK orgy??? haha
> 
> And Evie (Helen) is right, work would be just too boring without me singing & dancing around the shop! haha


 
carrying hedgehogs and selling me thermostats without realising?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Meko said:


> carrying hedgehogs and selling me thermostats without realising?


Have you seen me carrying the hedgehog around too Meko??? 

But isn't it nice being served by a lovely lad like me???

<say yes or the dogs get it!>









:lol2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Evie said:


> Yup, hearing is quite good enough thanks......my eyes.....on your thighs....ooh quick fenny it rhymes make a poem :lol2:


Bitch!!!


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

Zoo-Man said:


> Have you seen me carrying the hedgehog around too Meko???
> 
> But isn't it nice being served by a lovely lad like me???
> 
> ...


yep, possibly the Sunday before. I got a heatmat and viv lock for the boa as you were opening. Rather putting the hog in his house you took him for a wander round the shop... i did feel like buying him though..


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Meko said:


> yep, possibly the Sunday before. I got a heatmat and viv lock for the boa as you were opening. Rather putting the hog in his house you took him for a wander round the shop... i did feel like buying him though..


Ah right, you are becoming a regular aren't you? hehe


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

lol.. think the next time will be for crickets in a week or so unless i order bulk online..


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Well next time you are in the shop, I WILL introduce myself properly, if you don't do it first! haha


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Evie said:


> I can imagine Clarkes look of horror if he reads this :lol2:
> He can have a holiday............. but it's boring at work without him so not too long :whip:


Proof of what fun we have at work! Even a mundane task such as sweeping the floor can be fun with a bit of imagination & a few horsey noises, eh Helen??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> Proof of what fun we have at work! Even a mundane task such as sweeping the floor can be fun with a bit of imagination & a few horsey noises, eh Helen??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


"NEEEIIIGGHHHHH"


:lol2:


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