# mixed frogs ?



## biggie01 (Feb 23, 2012)

Hi was wonder could different spieces of frogs live together ? or would it cause problems ?? was just wondering thats all


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## OlyFroggyBoy (Nov 18, 2009)

Its not advisable. Only if you have keeping the species seperatly for a long time before hand is when it would be ok, but to be honest problems will most likely still occur and its just not worth the hassle.


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## mim77 (Dec 18, 2011)

nooooo. u mustnt mix them. frogs absorb thu their skin and the toxins in different species are harmful to others and will result in them dyin.


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## spend_day (Apr 10, 2008)

Basically it can be done with certain species and in the right conditions work (altho there will always be an element of luck) but its not really a good idea especially for beginners as (no offence) they can't always spot issues before they occur and honestly it not really best for the animals involved 

I'm just adding this next bit should u consider it later or should anyone stumble over this thread

If you were to do it basic recommendations are 

choose your species wisely (species from the same geological areas are generally considered best also a good knowledge of said species for example are they territorial or easily stressed)

Get the biggest enclosure possible and set it up well (I know some1 once said get the minimum enclosure size for both species and add it together and you have a good starting point but bigger is always better) 

Quarantine the animals the longer the better (at least 6 months) also get fecal smears for parasites 

Carefully observe the set up. any signs of stress, illness, aggression or one species out competing the other

Know when to call it quits

common issues 

Stress (just from being in a confined space with another species can cause some to get stressed )

Illness (some species are immune to and carry certain things that kill others)

Environment (incorrect setup for one of both species you shouldn't really have to compromise)

Aggression (territorial behavior or just one larger or more "outgoing" species bullying the other.)

Competition (one species is getting all the best warm/wet spots or all the food)


to put it simply it an amazing pain the in the rear that may not work in the end and will possibly put all the animals involved at risk.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Before the sweeping statement 'it can't be done' hits the thread - yes it can be done but it depends on various factors. In outdoor vivaria, Pelobates species and Epidalea viridis mix well, as do many European species - Bombina variegata and Alytes obstetricans work well too. I wouldn't generally mix Poison dart frogs, especially Oophaga haha, but did have success a while back with some tinctorius and azureiventris. It's certainly best to keep different species of anurans species specific though - for many different reasons.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

spend_day said:


> Basically it can be done with certain species and in the right conditions work (altho there will always be an element of luck) but its not really a good idea especially for beginners as (no offence) they can't always spot issues before they occur and honestly it not really best for the animals involved
> 
> I'm just adding this next bit should u consider it later or should anyone stumble over this thread
> 
> ...


 

it was my article in PRk a few months ago then mentioned minimum cage size  along with a range of information on community habitats etc. 

But you have surmerised the key points from the article nicly. The esential aspect is experience to observe symptoms, adequate environment and a whole lot of luck. Whilst it can be done succesfull generaklly unless you have lots of expereince its not recomended. 

jay


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Spikebrit said:


> [/B]
> 
> it was my article in PRk a few months ago then mentioned minimum cage size  along with a range of information on community habitats etc.
> 
> ...


 Yep, I agree completely.


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## biggie01 (Feb 23, 2012)

thanks everyone was just wondering thats all as it would look nice having all different coloured frogs together but i was thinking about the toxins and all that.. i do have my american green tree frogs and green anoles together and there fine was wondering about other frogs


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

biggie01 said:


> thanks everyone was just wondering thats all as it would look nice having all different coloured frogs together but i was thinking about the toxins and all that.. i do have my american green tree frogs and green anoles together and there fine was wondering about other frogs



The Anolis and AGTF are a perfect example of what can be mixed in sufficient sized enclosures given their country of origin etc. I feel people tend to ruin it though by adding other species from the othe side of the world - Takydromus, an Asian Lacertid that inhabits grasslands, being a common example.

I am currently raising some SMALL Dyscophus with some othe Madagascan inhabitants, Phelsuma - temporarily, it is a large vivarium and is carefully designed so that interaction is minimal or non-existant. Quite unusual for me as I am a big fan of species specific vivaria.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> The Anolis and AGTF are a perfect example of what can be mixed in sufficient sized enclosures given their country of origin etc. I feel people tend to ruin it though by adding other species from the othe side of the world - Takydromus, an Asian Lacertid that inhabits grasslands, being a common example.
> 
> I am currently raising some *SMALL* Dyscophus with some othe Madagascan inhabitants, Phelsuma - temporarily, it is a large vivarium and is carefully designed so that interaction is minimal or non-existant. Quite unusual for me as I am a big fan of species specific vivaria.


That kind of shows the point though, Alex- you have the experience to know the *eventual* size of the tomato frogs, plus the climatic conditions favored by both species, etc etc etc. If someone without your experience tried it without thinking through the implications they could end up with a couple of large, very fat frogs! :lol2:


I take your point about geographical origin, but to be honest, I think that's more aesthetic than anything else.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Alex M said:


> The Anolis and AGTF are a perfect example of what can be mixed in sufficient sized enclosures given their country of origin etc. I *feel people tend to ruin it though by adding other species from the othe side of the world - Takydromus, an Asian Lacertid that inhabits grasslands, being a common example.
> *
> I am currently raising some SMALL Dyscophus with some othe Madagascan inhabitants, Phelsuma - temporarily, it is a large vivarium and is carefully designed so that interaction is minimal or non-existant. Quite unusual for me as I am a big fan of species specific vivaria.


Regarding the bit in bold Takydromus (long tailed lizards) despite being from a different part of the globe their specific neich habitat is identical to that of anoles. Whilst it is often not advisable to mis species from different areas. When the conditions so close, following correct treatment for parasites it can work well pending a large enougth enclosure. Whilst i wouldnt recomend it for many species, long tales and anoles are one of a few species where communites can be succesful. 

I have a community habitat that has been going for well over 8 years now, consisting of anoles, USA tree frog and long tailed lizards (all breading). Creating the correct neich habitats and selecting animals that have identical care is the key along with correct size habitats. 

jay


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Ron Magpie said:


> That kind of shows the point though, Alex- you have the experience to know the *eventual* size of the tomato frogs, plus the climatic conditions favored by both species, etc etc etc. If someone without your experience tried it without thinking through the implications they could end up with a couple of large, very fat frogs! :lol2:
> 
> 
> I take your point about geographical origin, but to be honest, I think that's more aesthetic than anything else.


I am especially cautious of mixed vivaria with animals from different countries after witnessing what has happened on Boscombe cliffs between our native Lacerta agilis and the introduced Podarcis muralis subspecies possibly bruegmanni from Italy - it was shown that the alien species did infact carry a pathogen that our natives, seperated from mainland Europe since the last ice age, had no defence against and were consequently wiped out by (pers.comm Dave Bird). For that reason I recommend caution - but I'm sure we've both been guilty of some fairly horrific mixes in our beginning years mate (I know I have!). I'm sure many people have lost animals in this fashion without actually really getting to the bottom of their unexpected losses (myself included I'm sure). 


Be careful!.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Alex M said:


> I am especially cautious of mixed vivaria with animals from different countries after witnessing what has happened on Boscombe cliffs between our native Lacerta agilis and the introduced Podarcis muralis subspecies possibly bruegmanni from Italy - it was shown that the alien species did infact carry a pathogen that our natives, seperated from mainland Europe since the last ice age, had no defence against and were consequently wiped out by (pers.comm Dave Bird). For that reason I recommend caution - but I'm sure we've both been guilty of some fairly horrific mixes in our beginning years mate (I know I have!). I'm sure many people have lost animals in this fashion without actually really getting to the bottom of their unexpected losses (myself included I'm sure).
> 
> 
> Be careful!.


Now that I can agree with, caution is differently advised but longtails and anoles are one of the few cross country mix's that have always worked (to my knowledge) 

However, yes I have deffently done some horrific mix's particularly in my early years. Animals from the same area that should have worked and not, along with other things, I have even sadly lost a few before i could remove offending animals. 

It's a risk, a calculated risk but a risk none the less. Community habitats can be amazing, but in most cases that go wrong. I would say out of all those i know who have attempted community habitas only about 15% have actually worked. 

jay


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> Regarding the bit in bold Takydromus (long tailed lizards) despite being from a different part of the globe their specific neich habitat is identical to that of anoles. Whilst it is often not advisable to mis species from different areas. When the conditions so close, following correct treatment for parasites it can work well pending a large enougth enclosure. Whilst i wouldnt recomend it for many species, long tales and anoles are one of a few species where communites can be succesful.
> 
> I have a community habitat that has been going for well over 8 years now, consisting of anoles, USA tree frog and long tailed lizards (all breading). Creating the correct neich habitats and selecting animals that have identical care is the key along with correct size habitats.
> 
> jay



Hi Jay,

I merely pointed out that the Anolis and Takydromus are a 'common example' of what are typically kept together in mixed vivaria, and not that it's impossible to mix these 2 groups, I did when I was a young kid, though it's not for me now, and still potentially risky.


I do disagree regarding them occupying 'identical habitat' in their respective countries - as with respect, they don't - I think the reason behind their success communally is that they are obviously relatively adaptable more than anything - not sure what a lizard from drier grasslands makes of a more humid forest setup, I personally don't think it's an ideal mix but will grant you that some reptiles (and amphibians) can be quite accommodating.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Alex M said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> I merely pointed out that the Anolis and Takydromus are a 'common example' of what are typically kept together in mixed vivaria, and not that it's impossible to mix these 2 groups, I did when I was a young kid, though it's not for me now, and still potentially risky.
> 
> ...


I disagree with them mainly being found in dry areas. Have worked with a range of collectors and exporters of these lizards for a few years now (as they are some of my favorites and completely under kept in captivity), and a majority are actually found in areas of relatively higher humidity then one would might expect. Whilst they were intially reported as prefering drier habitats, this doesn't appear to be their areas of preference, especially according to the collectors I use. They appear to prefer areas of higher humidity to live making the most of humid areas whilst they will cover a areas consisting of a wide range of temperature and humidity flucaturations (including dry ares). They appear to be, as you mention, a very adaptable lizard and extremely under rated. Which again is simular to that of anolis.

However I do agree that many are mixed incorrectly and are destined to failure. But i would say whilst I am not a massive fan of mixing animals from different habitats usually these appear contra to that rule. Due in part ot their adaptability (due to their wide habiat range) as well the range of location in which they are found. 

Jay


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> I disagree with them mainly being found in dry areas. Have worked with a range of collectors and exporters of these lizards for a few years now (as they are some of my favorites and completely under kept in captivity), and a majority are actually found in areas of relatively higher humidity then one would might expect. Whilst they were intially reported as prefering drier habitats, this doesn't appear to be their areas of preference, especially according to the collectors I use. They appear to prefer areas of higher humidity to live making the most of humid areas whilst they will cover a areas consisting of a wide range of temperature and humidity flucaturations (including dry ares). They appear to be, as you mention, a very adaptable lizard and extremely under rated. Which again is simular to that of anolis.
> 
> However I do agree that many are mixed incorrectly and are destined to failure. But i would say whilst I am not a massive fan of mixing animals from different habitats usually these appear contra to that rule. Due in part ot their adaptability (due to their wide habiat range) as well the range of location in which they are found.
> 
> Jay




Hi Jay,


Do you really get to speak to the people themselves that collect the Takydromus in the field? I.e the 'collectors' themselves?

Forgive my cynicism, but I worked in the trade (still do to an extent) and speaking to the actual people that catch things like this I would really deem a bridge too far, unless perhaps you're another Tom C or Tom H?. Who are these collectors? Apologies but I call a spade a spade and I'm going to be especially suspicious if something doesn't seem quite right there me old mucker.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Alex M said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> 
> Do you really get to speak to the people themselves that collect the Takydromus in the field? I.e the 'collectors' themselves?
> ...


I'll rephase that slightly, I communicated with the exporter who passed on my questions to their collectors i've not spoken to the collectors directly. This was about 3 or 4 years ago now (maybe even a bit longer). I had a good relationship with this particular exporter and i asked if he would do it for me and he did. I have to say i didnt expect the answer and I particularly didnt expect the answer I received. I now work closely with another importer who has a fantastic relationship with his exporters and often alters his own care practises from information they give him. In many years i have never known a relationship that is that good, to the point he regularly visits the farms he deals with and goes out with collectors. 

I also have a few friends who are involved in farms as are a few importors (im sure yourself if you were involved with importation have been offered at times). These guys get a lot of information directly from collectors. I'll give an example here as im sure the guy wont mind me mentioning as we spoke about his invovlement in a recent PRK article as well as on the forum. Neil Tricket (coolcroc) a friend of mine and owner of living jungle, pygmycham shop and jungle bugs has involvemet in various farms and regularlry communicates with the collectors directly on visits over there, goes out with the collectors along with undertaking research out there. Hence how he has managed to make a few new discoveries in regard to breeding behaviour and life in a range of pygmy chameleons. For the plug you can view some of these findings in this months PRK. So it is possiable if you know the right people

You are welcome to the cynicism, and tbh I would have it too. It is only though a combination of a good relationship with importers, exporters and farms that I managed to get certain questions answered. Which has completely change the way i keep my animals in some instance. 

I hope that answers your questions. 

jay


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

This is the problem with captive lizards and amphibians.Unless we are fortunate enough to collect them ourselves or observe them in the wild we recreate habitats that we think are natural.

But that is not always the case as with some chameleons.They always used to be kept at high temperatures but some are montane species and need cool conditions.Looking on the atlas does not always give a true reflection on habitat.

Also some of the commoner species must have a wide range of habitats and by their nature be very adaptable.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> I'll rephase that slightly, I communicated with the exporter who passed on my questions to their collectors i've not spoken to the collectors directly. This was about 3 or 4 years ago now (maybe even a bit longer). I had a good relationship with this particular exporter and i asked if he would do it for me and he did. I have to say i didnt expect the answer and I particularly didnt expect the answer I received. I now work closely with another importer who has a fantastic relationship with his exporters and often alters his own care practises from information they give him. In many years i have never known a relationship that is that good, to the point he regularly visits the farms he deals with and goes out with collectors.
> 
> I also have a few friends who are involved in farms as are a few importors (im sure yourself if you were involved with importation have been offered at times). These guys get a lot of information directly from collectors. I'll give and example here as im sure the guy wont mind me mentioning as we spoke about his invovlement in a recent PRK article as well as on the forum. Neil Tricket (coolcroc) owner of living jungle, pygmycham shop and jungle bugs has involvemet in various farms and regularlry communicates with the collectors directly on visits over there, goes out with the collectors along with undertaking research out there. Hence how he has managed to make a few new discoveries in regard to breeding behaviour and life in a range of pygmy chameleons. For the plug you can view some of these findings in this months PRK.
> 
> ...



I'm pleased you were adult about it, and could understand my cynicism, Jay - I've met the odd right bull5hitter on here and having not talked to you before the 'collector' comment seemed weird but that's a good, and honest, answer. Thumbs up as they say . And interesting info - am guessing that the Takydromus will eventually evolve into a lizard that doesn't resemble a dry blade of grass 


P.s Why has Practical Reptile Keeper got smaller since it's initial issues - or is it just me?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Alex M said:


> P.s Why has Practical Reptile Keeper got smaller since it's initial issues - or is it just me?


Alex, I have found that everything gets smaller with age except the belly.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

colinm said:


> This is the problem with captive lizards and amphibians.Unless we are fortunate enough to collect them ourselves or observe them in the wild we recreate habitats that we think are natural.
> 
> But that is not always the case as with some chameleons.They always used to be kept at high temperatures but some are montane species and need cool conditions.Looking on the atlas does not always give a true reflection on habitat.
> 
> Also some of the commoner species must have a wide range of habitats and by their nature be very adaptable.



Good points, Colin. Funny you mentioned montane chameleons - I've got a pair of quadricornis that were mating in the bathroom the other day. It can get very cold in there at night, but they're reponding to the increase in temps and day length - am looking forward to moving them outside soon to the enclosure in which I used to breed and maintain my C.rudis.


(Hope you well mate )


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Alex M said:


> I'm pleased you were adult about it, and could understand my cynicism, Jay - I've met the odd right bull5hitter on here and having not talked to you before the 'collector' comment seemed weird but that's a good, and honest, answer. Thumbs up as they say . And interesting info - am guessing that the Takydromus will eventually evolve into a lizard that doesn't resemble a dry blade of grass
> 
> 
> P.s Why has Practical Reptile Keeper got smaller since it's initial issues - or is it just me?


It's alright, the as you said bull5hitter coments on here are the reason i no longer post much now, I spend most of my time in the planted habiat section now or here (debating lighting with Ade lol) despite the fact i keep very few frogs now. The last 4 months is the most active I have been in a long long while though im getting annoyed with armchair experts again since i started posting in the lizard section again. 

I'll be completely honest, i never gave it the time of day untill about a year or so ago when a friend started writing for them and the standard of information and articles improved. I only started writing for them about 8 months ago. 

Maybe they will evole a new look, but I love the way they interact in my vivs here. The way they use their tail is absolutely amazing. 

jay


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> It's alright, the as you said bull5hitter coments on here are the reason i no longer post much now, I spend most of my time in the planted habiat section now or here (debating lighting with Ade lol) despite the fact i keep very few frogs now. The last 4 months is the most active I have been in a long long while though im getting annoyed with armchair experts again since i started posting in the lizard section again.
> 
> I'll be completely honest, i never gave it the time of day untill about a year or so ago when a friend started writing for them and the standard of information and articles improved. I only started writing for them about 8 months ago.
> 
> ...




Nice one, Jay - I think that's the first time on here that I've seen a 'disagreement' (if you like haha) actually not spoil over into a full on fist fight haha. I share your sentiment about why you don't really post here anymore (same here) - I just post my own experiences and if someone wants to tell me its wrong then good luck. If you say too much, you're an arrogant so-and-so, but then why dumb yourself down (which I won't) and not share both your past luck and mistakes equally for the benefit of others? Surely that's what this and other forums should be all about? I think Facebook is a better place to vent lifes frustrations and ego trips rather than take it out on fellow herpetoculturists (and f#ck me do I like a moan on Facebook ha!)

Breast wishes
Al


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Alex M said:


> Nice one, Jay - I think that's the first time on here that I've seen a 'disagreement' (if you like haha) actually not spoil over into a full on fist fight haha. I share your sentiment about why you don't really post here anymore (same here) - I just post my own experiences and if someone wants to tell me its wrong then good luck. If you say too much, you're an arrogant so-and-so, but then why dumb yourself down (which I won't) and not share both your past luck and mistakes equally for the benefit of others? Surely that's what this and other forums should be all about? I think Facebook is a better place to vent lifes frustrations and ego trips rather than take it out on fellow herpetoculturists (and f#ck me do I like a moan on Facebook ha!)
> 
> Breast wishes
> Al


 That's the thing about 'Phibs, Al- most of the regulars on this section are nowhere near as confrontational as they are on some of the others. Occasionally someone comes along and gets offensive, but they are usually put in their place fairly quickly!:lol2:
I'm happy to say that I've learned oodles from other peoples experiences as they share them on here, which makes it a really valuable resource, and has made me re-think quite a few of my set-ups :2thumb:


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## snowdragon (Feb 21, 2010)

*can i mix*

could i mix my american green frogs with my redeyes ??
has anybody had any success mixing them in the same viv 
my viv is bigger enough and its set up equaly to house both 
just wonderd what you guys thought :notworthy: scot


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

Alex M said:


> Nice one, Jay - I think that's the first time on here that I've seen a 'disagreement' (if you like haha) actually not spoil over into a full on fist fight haha. I share your sentiment about why you don't really post here anymore (same here) - I just post my own experiences and if someone wants to tell me its wrong then good luck. If you say too much, you're an arrogant so-and-so, but then why dumb yourself down (which I won't) and not share both your past luck and mistakes equally for the benefit of others? Surely that's what this and other forums should be all about? I think Facebook is a better place to vent lifes frustrations and ego trips rather than take it out on fellow herpetoculturists (and f#ck me do I like a moan on Facebook ha!)
> 
> Breast wishes
> Al


Lifes far to short to argue with people lol, discussion and learning from each others experiences is the way forward. 

I just rant to whoever will listening lol.


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

snowdragon said:


> could i mix my american green frogs with my redeyes ??
> has anybody had any success mixing them in the same viv
> my viv is bigger enough and its set up equaly to house both
> just wonderd what you guys thought :notworthy: scot


Personally I would say no Scot red eyes are just to sensitive in the first instance. Though other might disagree with that.

Hope that helps
jay


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## snowdragon (Feb 21, 2010)

Spikebrit said:


> Personally I would say no Scot red eyes are just to sensitive in the first instance. Though other might disagree with that.
> 
> Hope that helps
> jay


 very much soo thanks they will be kept separete then 
thanks


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

snowdragon said:


> could i mix my american green frogs with my redeyes ??
> has anybody had any success mixing them in the same viv
> my viv is bigger enough and its set up equaly to house both
> just wonderd what you guys thought :notworthy: scot


Scot, didn't we talk about this before?:hmm:The main problem with red eyes is that they are very prone to stress- they are one of the species definitely best not to mix.


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## rachyshax (Mar 13, 2012)

*Red eye tree frog needs a new home*

Hello everyone, 
As you are all interested in tree frogs etc. i wanted to ask if anybody would like to adopt a red eye tree frog of about 5 years, named bloo. 
Because I have had to attend university, sadly he doesn't get much attention anymore. As far as i know, he's perfectly healthy, comes with a glass habitat with plants and pond etc. all included.
Because I love him dearly, and want someone extra special to take care of him, with a knowledge of reptiles, i am not asking for any money at all, but I would like some proof if possible that the person is a genuine reptile lover and not someone who would take him and not give him the love he deserves. 

He currently lives in Buckhurst Hill, Essex and would need to be collected. 

If anyone is interested, please e-mail me at [email protected]

Thanks 

Rachel Schacter


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Alex,damn i miss your wisdom dude...Jay we talk here and there but not often enough
guys just wanted to say what a fascinating enlightening read this has been,yeah ok about the only thing i'm thinking of mixing at the moment is a wood louce and a springtail:bash: , or maybe 3partsvodka 2parts sloe gin 1 part cherry brandy and a dash of cider (hard day)
but damn me i've enjoyed this,wonderful debate
fabulous guys
THANKYOU BOTH :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
regards
Stu


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

soundstounite said:


> Alex,damn i miss your wisdom dude...Jay we talk here and there but not often enough
> guys just wanted to say what a fascinating enlightening read this has been,yeah ok about the only thing i'm thinking of mixing at the moment is a wood louce and a springtail:bash: , or maybe 3partsvodka 2parts sloe gin 1 part cherry brandy and a dash of cider (hard day)
> but damn me i've enjoyed this,wonderful debate
> fabulous guys
> ...


Indeed Stu, I do watch your thread with interest though i dont post as often as i should. 

Thats a very hard day judging by that combination of spirits. Cherry brandy is lovley, all the better when its home made. 

Jay


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

rachyshax said:


> Hello everyone,
> As you are all interested in tree frogs etc. i wanted to ask if anybody would like to adopt a red eye tree frog of about 5 years, named bloo.
> Because I have had to attend university, sadly he doesn't get much attention anymore. As far as i know, he's perfectly healthy, comes with a glass habitat with plants and pond etc. all included.
> Because I love him dearly, and want someone extra special to take care of him, with a knowledge of reptiles, i am not asking for any money at all, but I would like some proof if possible that the person is a genuine reptile lover and not someone who would take him and not give him the love he deserves.
> ...


Hmm. that's Central Line, isn't it?


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