# Is it illegal



## rifkygirl (Dec 15, 2007)

Im just wondering, is it illegal in the UK to feed live food to reptiles. Not that im going down that route, far from it, just need to settle an argumet. : victory:


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## madavies65 (Jan 21, 2009)

Morally its a grey area, now you have to look on the spiritual level... do insects have souls? mmmmmm  its a quandary

just kidding, legally its all good though maybe not if your feeding your lizard a dog!


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## grumpyoldtrout (May 19, 2008)

If you are talking rodents to snakes, there is a superb sticky near the top on the snake forum. 

We would not do it, well not so far, due to chance of injury to the snake.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/69279-live-feeding-laws.html#post1000620


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## rifkygirl (Dec 15, 2007)

Thanks.. like i said not going down the route myself, i thought it was illegal, but guess it's not.. Just wanted to settle a debate with a friend over it... moves on to read the sticky... :whistling2:


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## Button12 (Nov 28, 2009)

see, i breed gerbils, i give the pinkys to my beardy and the more grown on ones to my monitor, i feed theese live and people say its cruel but the way i see it is that they get a quick death with the jaws of both my beasties, and its a natural way to go. i also let some become adults and put them to sleep before freezing them for my snake(adult gerbils have teeth and claws so i wouldnt advise feeding them live) i know people say co2 chambers are more humane but i think a quick snap of the neck is just as good.....what do you lot think?


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## Stevey85 (Nov 14, 2009)

well I feed dead just cause of people saying that my snake could be injured.
And as for crickets having souls? Mine keep drowning themselves so they're goin straight to hell anyways Hah!


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## Grond (Jun 17, 2008)

It's not illegal(as I guess you know if you've read the sticky).

I beleive it sould not be done routinely, and should be used as a last resort. : victory:


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## pinktoetarantula (Nov 11, 2008)

I have always been told that it IS illegal to feed any live vertebrate to another animal in the UK, It is only deemed legal as a last resort e.g. to encourage a snake to feed that won't/hasn't eaten anything else offered to it to the point where its life may be/is threatened.

Tough one. I personally think its cruel unless absolutely necessary. 

People can argue thats its natural for these animals we keep to have live food, but, we keep these animals in a completely artificial and in many cases a completely inadequat impression of the animals natural environment. Also, in the wild the prey animal always has the opportunity to escape, not so in captivity.

Final point, if there is anybody feeding live vertebrates to their pets e.g. live rat for a snake, just remember that the rat can bite the snake and could cause abcesses/growths/infection and therefore ending up with the owner of the snake either having vet bills or worst case scenario a dead snake.


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

it is legal but frowned upon and the RSPCA can try to prosecute for cruelty to the feeder animal.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

why bother when ready humainly killed rodents are so easy to buy? if the rep takes defrosts why bother giving em live food seems sick to me


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't think they snakes be fed livefood just for the sake of it and I don't think you are suposed to but non-feeders are okay to have livefood.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Some live foods are sold in most pet shops.

At my visit to the local reptile shop, they had Mealworms, Crickets and Locusts on sale.....ALL were live.

I imagine rodents are usually baught from the pet stores, and bread untill theyres enough there to feed to snakes live.


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## Dunnyc23 (Jan 12, 2010)

*nutrition*

surely, the nutritional level of frozen food is not as high as freshly killed/live... it's like buyin ready meals in the supermarket, isnt it? if u buy warm-ups, it aint evr guna b as gd as fresh! 4 this reason, i am seriously considering feeding my snakes live mice in future.. not every time, but sometimes 4 nutrition & mental stimulation. Why is it that its perfectly fine to feed insects to reptiles, but not rodents????

my local petstore sells live food (locusts,crickets,mealworms etc) & keeps them in tiny boxes with no food or water & they are either sold or left to die of dehydration... however, they refuse 2 sell me live mice as they know i am a snake-keeper & want the mice 4 food. This is so annoying, the shop told me its illegal 4 them 2 sell the mice 2 me as food. However, they did say i can legally buy the mice if my intentions wer 4 breedin my own feeder mice!?! this doesnt make 1 bit of sense 2 me, so please can ne1 elaborate on this?


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## Jczreptiles (Sep 1, 2009)

Dunnyc23 said:


> surely, the nutritional level of frozen food is not as high as freshly killed/live... it's like buyin ready meals in the supermarket, isnt it? if u buy warm-ups, it aint evr guna b as gd as fresh! 4 this reason, *i am seriously considering feeding my snakes live mice in future*.. not every time, but sometimes 4 nutrition & mental stimulation. Why is it that its perfectly fine to feed insects to reptiles, but not rodents????
> 
> my local petstore sells live food (locusts,crickets,mealworms etc) & keeps them in tiny boxes with no food or water & they are either sold or left to die of dehydration... however, they refuse 2 sell me live mice as they know i am a snake-keeper & want the mice 4 food. This is so annoying, the shop told me its illegal 4 them 2 sell the mice 2 me as food. However, they did say i can legally buy the mice if my intentions wer 4 breedin my own feeder mice!?! this doesnt make 1 bit of sense 2 me, so please can ne1 elaborate on this?


 Why not just feed fresh killed? Less hassle IMO if your snake is eating defrost. As or the crickets they are inverts so there is no such thing in the eyes of the law as cruelty to them.


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## markhill (Sep 22, 2006)

Dunnyc23 said:


> surely, the nutritional level of frozen food is not as high as freshly killed/live... it's like buyin ready meals in the supermarket, isnt it? if u buy warm-ups, it aint evr guna b as gd as fresh! 4 this reason, i am seriously considering feeding my snakes live mice in future.. not every time, but sometimes 4 nutrition & mental stimulation. Why is it that its perfectly fine to feed insects to reptiles, but not rodents????
> 
> my local petstore sells live food (locusts,crickets,mealworms etc) & keeps them in tiny boxes with no food or water & they are either sold or left to die of dehydration... however, they refuse 2 sell me live mice as they know i am a snake-keeper & want the mice 4 food. This is so annoying, the shop told me its illegal 4 them 2 sell the mice 2 me as food. However, they did say i can legally buy the mice if my intentions wer 4 breedin my own feeder mice!?! this doesnt make 1 bit of sense 2 me, so please can ne1 elaborate on this?


That is true, they cant legally sell them knowing they will be fed.

You have to sign a form called your "duty of care" before they will sell them to you.

Basically it means that you have a legal duty to care for the mice and provide them everything they need to live a natural life and feeding them live to a snake breaks that duty of care.

You could argue that feeding them is giving them a natural death but I'm not sure that would work:whistling2:

I have one female Royal that will not touch defrost or fresh killed so I have no choice but to feed her live rats, she is the only snake i have that eats live because all my others will readily eat defrost rats.


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## csh (Sep 25, 2008)

Button12 said:


> see, i breed gerbils, i give the pinkys to my beardy and the more grown on ones to my monitor, i feed theese live and people say its cruel but the way i see it is that they get a quick death with the jaws of both my beasties, and its a natural way to go. i also let some become adults and put them to sleep before freezing them for my snake(adult gerbils have teeth and claws so i wouldnt advise feeding them live) i know people say co2 chambers are more humane but i think a quick snap of the neck is just as good.....what do you lot think?


THE CO2 CHAMBERS ARE DANGEROUS TO YOU , 1 THEY COULD EXPOLED OR KNOCK U UNCONCOIUS,ops sorry caps, also mice shit an pee on each other , so i would an do pu;ll tail an break its neck no pain,which is better i think but its just my humble opinon . but some times i cant do it so ive now a collection of lovely mice, an b4 any 1 says if there made right theyll not expolde ect , only time willl tell


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

csh said:


> THE CO2 CHAMBERS ARE DANGEROUS TO YOU , 1 THEY COULD EXPOLED OR KNOCK U UNCONCOIUS,...an b4 any 1 says if there made right theyll not expolde ect , only time willl tell


If carbon dioxide canisters with regulators *regularly* exploded, then welding companies and pubs couldn't use them.

Using the vinegar and bicarb method *is* dangerous, and it is not considered an appropriate means of producing CO2 for the euthanasia of animals.


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Ssthisto said:


> If carbon dioxide canisters with regulators *regularly* exploded, then welding companies and pubs couldn't use them.


Not to meantion, that if such canisters are kept in a cool, dry and secure (they cannot move) place, then it drastically reduces the chances of an explosion. - As soon as you introduce heat, the air inside expands...If the seals become wet, they could be damaged, causing leaks and if the canisters are free to move around, or aren't strapped tightly, then this may also damage the canister, inturn causing an explosion. (This is something I learned in school)

I, personally don't think CO2 sufferfcation is the most humane method for all animals, however it is the least stressful way for some.

The crap that cannisters regularly explode is hearsay, as Ssthisto said, many places wouldn't be abled to use them such as pubs, or garages due to public liabilitie.


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

Its legal to live feed, unless: you do so as an 'exhibit'.. ie in a public place or a shop front or generally encourage people to watch publically... (as there you will step into the realms of 'baiting' one animal against another for sport or amusement).

or, if you can be found to be causing unecessary suffering to I guess, either the snake or the rodent in question. 

So - chucking a few live mice into a snake tank in a shop front with members of the public there - bad plan (on both the above counts).

Using a live mouse for a non-feeder in a private location where ALL else has failed and you are carefully watching to make sure all goes according to plan - ok.

Usually, not necessary though.


csh - Ill remember htat should I ever go back to working in a pub/bar... maybe I;ll get danger money. </sarcasm> Unless you are doing f***witted things with them, they are safe. If you are throwing them around, beating them with sledgehammers, throwing them onto fires or trying to drill holes in them... then maybe.


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

i find it strange that the people on this forum keep these exotic animals and reptiles but you dont allow them to do what comes natural and what they have done for thousands of years and that is KILL these animals are in all respect predators , surely it is good for there mental health to be able to kill there prey every so often so they can exhibit and experience there natural behavior ?


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

lee19831 said:


> i find it strange that the people on this forum keep these exotic animals and reptiles but you dont allow them to do what comes natural and what they have done for thousands of years and that is KILL these animals are in all respect predators , surely it is good for there mental health to be able to kill there prey every so often so they can exhibit and experience there natural behavior ?


 
I agree with you.

However, in public, where all can view (including Youtube, and various other video hosting websites)??? No, That part I disagree.

I was in my local reptile supplies and retail shop before Christmas...The chameleon in an enclosure snatched a live locust...I thought it was fascinating to watch, however if somebody had of been in there, who was an inspecter, then the shop would've been questioned. Leaving live food in an enclosure for long periods of time, in my opinion is wrong.

Yes, it happens in the wild, however it's a captive environment, and we live in a civilised society. Leaving live animals in an enclosure, for another animal to kill and eat in public, is by NO means, civilised IMHO.


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

ViperLover said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> However, in public, where all can view (including Youtube, and various other video hosting websites)??? No, That part I disagree.
> 
> ...



I agree with you also , im not suggesting give live feeder food all the time and certainly not in public i just feel giving a snake,lizard etc the chance to kill even once a year or whatever is only fair i know there in captivity but surely our duty is to provide as close to nature situations as we can


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

lee19831 said:


> I agree with you also , im not suggesting give live feeder food all the time and certainly not in public i just feel giving a snake,lizard etc the chance to kill even once a year or whatever is only fair i know there in captivity but surely our duty is to provide as close to nature situations as we can


I agree with this also. :2thumb:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

ViperLover said:


> I was in my local reptile supplies and retail shop before Christmas...The chameleon in an enclosure snatched a live locust...I thought it was fascinating to watch, however if somebody had of been in there, who was an inspecter, then the shop would've been questioned.


No, they wouldn't have been questioned.

It is completely legal to feed live INVERTEBRATES to vertebrate animals, and does not have the same legislation as vertebrate animals do (i.e. the Animal Welfare Act 2006 does not apply to them).


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

lee19831 said:


> I agree with you also , im not suggesting give live feeder food all the time and certainly not in public i just feel giving a snake,lizard etc the chance to kill even once a year or whatever is only fair i know there in captivity but surely our duty is to provide as close to nature situations as we can


 
which nature? wild nature or captive bred from 20 generations of snakes living in plastic tubs feeding on defrosted mice, nature?


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

ViperLover said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> However, in public, where all can view (including Youtube, and various other video hosting websites)??? No, That part I disagree.
> 
> .


you choose to watch them on youtube etc, but youtube doesn't run to UK laws as it is an American site where live feeding seems to be fairly normal and more widely accepted.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

lee19831 said:


> i find it strange that the people on this forum keep these exotic animals and reptiles but you dont allow them to do what comes natural and what they have done for thousands of years and that is KILL these animals are in all respect predators , surely it is good for there mental health to be able to kill there prey every so often so they can exhibit and experience there natural behavior ?


I'm not sure that my snakes know the difference between a live mouse and a warm dead mouse that's "running away" from them being dangled from a pair of tongs. They chase it like it's live, they strike at it like it's live, they constrict it like it's live....

For that matter, we don't encourage our dogs, cats or ferrets to *routinely* obtain food by killing live prey. They are ALSO predators and it could be argued they have a lot more "mental" to require "health" than any reptile.



Viperlover said:


> I was in my local reptile supplies and retail shop before Christmas...The chameleon in an enclosure snatched a live locust...I thought it was fascinating to watch, however if somebody had of been in there, who was an inspecter, then the shop would've been questioned.


Yes, I realise I've already responded to this.

But you're still making statements about things that you're not 100% sure on, as though they're fact. Why not spend a few hundred posts pretending you're on Jeopardy...



Alex Trebeck said:


> Please phrase your response in the form of a question.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Meko said:


> which nature? wild nature or captive bred from 20 generations of snakes living in plastic tubs feeding on defrosted mice, nature?


 :no1::no1::no1:


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> No, they wouldn't have been questioned.
> 
> It is completely legal to feed live INVERTEBRATES to vertebrate animals, and does not have the same legislation as vertebrate animals do (i.e. the Animal Welfare Act 2006 does not apply to them).


i think you will find feeding one live vertebrate to another is allowed under the 1911 protect of animals act and there is actually a section that states animals must be able to display natural habits even if that is unseemly as live killing there prey , i think alot of this has to do with us brits find we can stomach it better if the prey is dead ,in alot of other civilized countries such as the usa for example live feeding is much more widespread.


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

Meko said:


> you choose to watch them on youtube etc, but youtube doesn't run to UK laws as it is an American site where live feeding seems to be fairly normal and more widely accepted.


youtube videos have to abide by the law of the country they are shown in hence why it will always state youtube uk when you log on from a uk ip address and the reason why some videos are not allowed to be viewed in this country


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

lee19831 said:


> i think you will find feeding one live vertebrate to another is allowed under the 1911 protect of animals act and there is actually a section that states animals must be able to display natural habits even if that is unseemly as live killing there prey , i think alot of this has to do with us brits find we can stomach it better if the prey is dead ,in alot of other civilized countries such as the usa for example live feeding is much more widespread.


I didn't say it wasn't allowed - just that there are laws regarding cruelty to vertebrate animals (the Animal Welfare Act 2006) that do not apply to invertebrate animals, and therefore the "not in public" bit doesn't apply to insect feeders.

For that matter, if it's deemed to be unreasonably cruel to the mouse (as feeding live where unnecessary COULD be if it were brought to trial) then live feeding in that specific circumstance may well have legislation against it.


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

Ssthisto said:


> I didn't say it wasn't allowed - just that there are laws regarding cruelty to vertebrate animals (the Animal Welfare Act 2006) that do not apply to invertebrate animals, and therefore the "not in public" bit doesn't apply to insect feeders.
> 
> For that matter, if it's deemed to be unreasonably cruel to the mouse (as feeding live where unnecessary COULD be if it were brought to trial) then live feeding in that specific circumstance may well have legislation against it.


as long as the mouse is cared for up until the point of feeding to a high standard then no unnecessary suffering will have taken place up until the point of death then the feeding it's self would not be seen as suffering


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

weren't the videos you couldn't see, music videos? and they'd been banned because of royalty issues?


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> However, in public, where all can view (including Youtube, and various other video hosting websites)??? No, That part I disagree.
> 
> ...


 The shop wouldnt of been questioned as the animal welfare act 2006c excludes insects


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## tomb87 (Nov 10, 2009)

had it been a mouse then it is ilegal but only to do so in public but insects excluded


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

Meko said:


> weren't the videos you couldn't see, music videos? and they'd been banned because of royalty issues?


there a different story , youtube wont allow videos of things to be seen that break laws of viewing decency in the country they are being viewed , mainly so they dont get sued or fined etc


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

ah righty, never stumbled across any of them.. unless i have and thought that they had just been deleted.


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## sharpstrain (May 24, 2008)

there was a documentary on tv the other day - Brady Barr - they were demonstrating the heat pits on a retic by covering its eyes and then offering it a live rat. Now i realise it was being done for research but the act was filmed and broadcast to an audience - wonder where that fits with all the malarky. - it was the funny one where he gets bit on the ass by a wild retic -:2thumb:


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## lee19831 (Jan 16, 2010)

sharpstrain said:


> there was a documentary on tv the other day - Brady Barr - they were demonstrating the heat pits on a retic by covering its eyes and then offering it a live rat. Now i realise it was being done for research but the act was filmed and broadcast to an audience - wonder where that fits with all the malarky. - it was the funny one where he gets bit on the ass by a wild retic -:2thumb:


i never saw that one  would of been interesting


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## Grumpy Granny (Mar 22, 2009)

I breed rats to feed to my snakes and get quite fond of the rats.... They are fed their main diet but also all sorts of treats = carrots, cornflakes, bread and they have lots of fresh hay to make their nests in. When I first started to breed the ratties I asked my Vet the best way to kill them and she showed me how to break their necks. 

Now this is all well and good when the snakes are all feeding, kill a few rats at a time and start offering to the snakes until all that want to feed have fed. The problem comes when most of the Royals are off feed for a while - seven months is the longest that one of mine went without feeding - and I am trying to get them to feed again. A small live rat will often be just the trigger needed to get the snake to feed, and if the rat is not eaten then it can go back with Mum and Dad to live happily with them rather than in the freezer.

Just my two-pennies worth 

Sue


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

lee19831 said:


> i think you will find feeding one live vertebrate to another is allowed under the 1911 protect of animals act and there is actually a section that states animals must be able to display natural habits even if that is unseemly as live killing there prey , i think alot of this has to do with us brits find we can stomach it better if the prey is dead ,in alot of other civilized countries such as the usa for example live feeding is much more widespread.


The 1911 Act was replaced by the Animal Welfare Act.
Live feeding is not illegal, the test is whether unnecessary suffering has been caused. Despite claims by some, a veterinary surgeon cannot "authorise" live feeding, there is nothing in the legislation which says this.
It is generally accepted that live feeding is lawful if all other methods (scenting, tease feeding, witholding water, etc) have been tried and failed. Incidentally, live feeding is more humane than force feeding. Providing the feeding is supervised, and the feeder rodent not left for long ( a hungry snake will take it very quickly if it is going to feed), and is not done for entertainment, or simply because the keeper feels it is more natural, then legally there should be no issue.
Invertebrates are different - lizards and others which feed on these need them to be alive as they tend to hunt using vision and detecting movement, as opposed to scent and temperature which snakes use.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If there is no need to live feed, I think it's wrong to do so.

As for displaying natural behaviour, there's nothing natural about keeping our snakes/lizards/pets enclosed in plastic tubs and vivariums, heated by lamps, and bred in captivity never knowing wild behaviour. So to justify your own pleasure of watching one animal killing another by saying it's natural is just a bit silly.

There is no need to do it unless you've got a snake who wont eat killed. And in my case, if that happened, I'll sell or euthanise the snake rather than feed it live.


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## rachel132002 (Dec 4, 2006)

So if you couldn't sell the snake and get some money for it you'd just pay out and get it bumped off because it didn't conform to feeding regime? Surely it'd be better to just give it away if it couldn't be sold because not eating defrost isn't a feasible reason to put a snake down which tbh isn't nice at the best of times anyway.

I feed live to those that need it, i know where my rats come from, how they're fed and all the rest of it, it's not fun feeding live but it doesn't bother me anymore, i chose to get the snakes so i need to fit in with their needs and if that entails feeding live then live is what i feed.

Rachel


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> If there is no need to live feed, I think it's wrong to do so.
> 
> As for displaying natural behaviour, there's nothing natural about keeping our snakes/lizards/pets enclosed in plastic tubs and vivariums, heated by lamps, and bred in captivity never knowing wild behaviour. So to justify your own pleasure of watching one animal killing another by saying it's natural is just a bit silly.
> 
> There is no need to do it unless you've got a snake who wont eat killed. And in my case, if that happened, I'll sell or *euthanise the snake rather than feed it live.*


 
Now THAT...is wrong.


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> Now THAT...is wrong.


 If she is uncomfortable live feeding and sells the snake to someone who isnt for the benefit of the snake why is that wrong?Dont just take things at face value,on here we are nearly all snake lovers so value the life of a snake above that of a rodent but thats not the only held veiw and neither is right or wrong,just different.As long as people can back their actions with sound logic or justifications then i dont think its wrong at all!!!


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## ViperLover (Jun 7, 2009)

Stu.G said:


> If she is uncomfortable live feeding and sells the snake to someone who isnt for the benefit of the snake why is that wrong?Dont just take things at face value,on here we are nearly all snake lovers so value the life of a snake above that of a rodent but thats not the only held veiw and neither is right or wrong,just different.As long as people can back their actions with sound logic or justifications then i dont think its wrong at all!!!


She meantioned euthanise... Thats what I thought was wrong.

I made a boo-boo with the bold highlighting...I will correct.


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

ViperLover said:


> She meantioned euthanise... Thats what I thought was wrong.
> 
> I made a boo-boo with the bold highlighting...I will correct.


Maybe, maybe not.A rodent definately suffers being killed by a snake,if you cant bring yourself to cause that suffering and the snake is suffering then maybe it would be best to have it euthanised to prevent further suffering to the snake.
I have live fed to a royal which had been burned and was serverly underweight,tried many methods and live feeding was a last resort but really wasnt a pleasant experience.


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