# Post pics of your DWA snakes please..



## Boa Boy

Could you all post pics of your DWA snakes I love seeing venomus snakes and it would be nice to see what you all keep.


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## ipreferaflan

I'd love to see some boomslangs!
Beaaaaaaautiful snakes.


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## mad martin

Not very good pics but

Boomslang Juvenile









Boomslang female









Boomslang threat display


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## mad martin

Snouted Cobra









Forest Cobra









Indonesian Eyelash Viper









Rinkhals


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## mad martin

These pics are crappy. I was holding the snake and had to use my cellphone

Boomslang Male


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## mad martin

Banded phase Snouted Cobra (caught in a chicken run)









My mate Kirk (Rinkhals)
People tied him to a fence with wire and he cut himself real bad. 247 stitches later 









Suphan Cobra


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## mark elliott

southern copperhead


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## mark elliott

albino monocled cobra


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## mark elliott

usambara bush viper


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## Owzy

mark elliott said:


> usambara bush viper
> image


Nice Atheris, how is it to keep?


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## ipreferaflan

You all have such beautiful snakes!


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## Serious D

Loving the copperhead and the Rinkhals pics.


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## stuartdouglas

Echis carinatus









Naja kaouthia suphanensis









Naja nivea


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## mark elliott

Owzy said:


> Nice Atheris, how is it to keep?


feisty but relatively easy .
regards mark


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## Jczreptiles

stuartdouglas said:


> image
> Echis carinatus
> 
> image
> Naja kaouthia suphanensis
> 
> image
> Naja nivea


 Whats the dumbass common name for these?


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## George_Millett

Jczreptiles said:


> Whats the dumbass common name for these?


 
Thanks, I thought I was the only person not to know the latin. :2thumb:


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## mark elliott

saw scaled, monocled cobra and cape cobra.


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## mark elliott

cryptelytrops albolabris (white lipped pit viper)


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## salvatoruk

She looks like a big girl. Do you have an accurate(ish) measurement on her?


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## mark elliott

salvatoruk said:


> She looks like a big girl. Do you have an accurate(ish) measurement on her?


 between 2 and 2 and a half feet .


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## Marcia

Wow! There's some stunning snakes here :flrt:


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## HABU

copperhead... my 2nd favorite hot snake...

i didn't find any this past summer... it was a crappy season weather-wise... next spring... yep...

although my brother had to kill one in some lady's yard last august...

i scolded him for it...

nothing but timbers and northern copperheads here... that southern is very nice... wicked heads and eyes!

:2thumb:


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## mark elliott

thanks habu


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## Boa Boy

that cobra is stuning, great pics guys keep them coming.

Stuartdouglas you have a deadly stunning collection.


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## salvatoruk

mark elliott said:


> between 2 and 2 and a half feet .


 Cool. I have an absolute monster well over the 3ft mark, at a glance you'd think she was a green tree python!
Do you have a male for her too?
My male is only an early '08 but I cooled them both and have put them together anyway this year just incase.

Keeping any other Asian Vipers?


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## SiUK

*Bitis arietans*

I really do need to take some new pics of her, but she is my favourite, the pride of my collection, shes over doubled in weight and size since this pic though


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## mark elliott

salvatoruk said:


> Cool. I have an absolute monster well over the 3ft mark, at a glance you'd think she was a green tree python!
> Do you have a male for her too?
> My male is only an early '08 but I cooled them both and have put them together anyway this year just incase.
> 
> Keeping any other Asian Vipers?


no i dont have a male but i am lookin for one


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## vitticeptus

I take my hat off to each and every one of you not only do you have some stunning reps you seem to be excellent photographers too!!Well done.:no1:


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## greenvenom

eastern nasicornis (ituri)








western nasicornis









bitis rhinoceros









bitis rhinoceros








calliophis bivirgata









calliophis bivirgata


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## Tehanu

Got to love that Echis Stuart, who wouldn't fall in love with that little face!?!

A couple of the schlegs from here


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## Marcia

greenvenom said:


> eastern nasicornis (ituri)
> image
> western nasicornis
> image
> bitis rhinoceros
> image
> bitis rhinoceros
> image
> calliophis bivirgata
> image
> calliophis bivirgata
> image


Wow :flrt:


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## stuartdouglas

Saedcantas said:


> Got to love that Echis Stuart, who wouldn't fall in love with that little face!?!
> 
> A couple of the schlegs from here
> image
> 
> image


That second one is gorgeous:flrt:


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## Azemiops

Russels Vipers










Wetar Island Vipers










Male Vogels Pitviper










Male Malayan Pitviper










Big-eyed Pitviper










Chinese Sharp-nosed Viper










Adult male Suphan Cobra










Female Papuan Taipan










Female Black Mamba


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## kizza

can i ask 

are venomous snakes expensive o buy ?

for example how much is an albino monoculed cobra ?

cheers people

kieran: victory:


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## StevetheSnake

Azemiops said:


> Russels Vipers
> 
> image
> 
> Wetar Island Vipers
> 
> image
> 
> Male Vogels Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Male Malayan Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Big-eyed Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Chinese Sharp-nosed Viper
> 
> image
> 
> Adult male Suphan Cobra
> 
> image
> 
> Female Papuan Taipan
> 
> image
> 
> Female Black Mamba
> 
> image


Just stunning healthy looking animals mate. That picture of the Wetar Island Vipers tells a story on its own "Come near and your for it...." :lol2: I couldn't sleep in the same house as Taipan, they scare the utter crap out of me over any other DWA snake.


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## leecb0

Vogal's are on my list for next year hes a stunner


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## Marcia

Azemiops said:


> Russels Vipers
> 
> image
> 
> Wetar Island Vipers
> 
> image
> 
> Male Vogels Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Male Malayan Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Big-eyed Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Chinese Sharp-nosed Viper
> 
> image
> 
> Adult male Suphan Cobra
> 
> image
> 
> Female Papuan Taipan
> 
> image
> 
> Female Black Mamba
> 
> image


They are stunning, especially the Vogels Pitviper :flrt:


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## salvatoruk

Macrops is my fav there Thomas. 

Have you seen the insularis hook up yet?


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## Azemiops

salvatoruk said:


> Macrops is my fav there Thomas.
> 
> Have you seen the insularis hook up yet?


 
Yeh the macrops is pretty cool! I havent seen any more copulation from the Wetar Island Vipers, just that one time where they looked like they were hooked up (think i sent you a photo?), but we shall see!


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## ViperLover

Azemiops said:


> Russels Vipers
> 
> image
> 
> Wetar Island Vipers
> 
> image
> 
> Male Vogels Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Male Malayan Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Big-eyed Pitviper
> 
> image
> 
> Chinese Sharp-nosed Viper
> 
> image
> 
> Adult male Suphan Cobra
> 
> image
> 
> Female Papuan Taipan
> 
> image
> 
> Female Black Mamba
> 
> image


 
You have an amazing collection, Tom!


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## exoticsadmirer

these snakes are absolutely gorgeous and that's why i love them their colours are very nice and bold can't wait to see some DWA species with my own eyes


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## ViperLover

kizza said:


> can i ask
> 
> are venomous snakes expensive o buy ?
> 
> for example how much is an albino monoculed cobra ?
> 
> cheers people
> 
> kieran: victory:


 
Ummm....Yeah. Very expencive.

First, You need a spare room, Then you have to modify it to the bare minimum required by the law and you're local council....This may cost a few grand. You need the experience....Mentoring may come at a charge, and also so I have been advised as I want to get into the hobby....You need to be very experienced with non-venomous snakes aswell...which is what has put me off keeping DWA for the meantime, as I simply do not want to get bitten through in-experience. Also, landlords may not allow you to modify rooms so Ive been told...agreement from the houseing agents or the landlord is a must so I was informed.

Once you have your room done, you're vivariums built with locks, and keys.....the room with a lock, the windows barred, sealed or locked....OR both....You can apply for you're lisence......This costs a bomb depending on you're local council.

After you get your lisence....The cheapest thing is the snake itself. LOL

Sorry....I am not trying to sound like a know it all....But who would purchase a Monocled cobra for their first venomous snake? Thats a bit dangerous, eh?

I assumed it would be youre first....as if you had been keeping hots then you'd know the price range....or would know people who did...surely

I had similar questions like yours a week or two ago....I posted a thread, and what I said above is what I learnt from the advice given....and from what I had read about the topic. Now I am gonna settle for a corn snake, or maybe a king and work my way up, getting husbandry experience and so on.


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## stuartdouglas

ViperLover said:


> Ummm....Yeah. *Very expencive.*
> 
> *First, You need a spare room, Then you have to modify it to the bare minimum required by the law and you're local council....This may cost a few grand. You need the experience....Mentoring may come at a charge, and also so I have been advised as I want to get into the hobby....You need to be very experienced with non-venomous snakes aswell...which is what has put me off keeping DWA for the meantime, as I simply do not want to get bitten through in-experience. Also, landlords may not allow you to modify rooms so Ive been told...agreement from the houseing agents or the landlord is a must so I was informed.*
> 
> *Once you have your room done, you're vivariums built with locks, and keys.....the room with a lock, the windows barred, sealed or locked....OR both....You can apply for you're lisence......This costs a bomb depending on you're local council.*
> 
> 
> After you get your lisence....The cheapest thing is the snake itself. LOL
> 
> Sorry....I am not trying to sound like a know it all....But who would purchase a Monocled cobra for their first venomous snake? Thats a bit dangerous, eh?
> 
> I assumed it would be youre first....as if you had been keeping hots then you'd know the price range....or would know people who did...surely
> 
> I had similar questions like yours a week or two ago....I posted a thread, and what I said above is what I learnt from the advice given....and from what I had read about the topic. Now I am gonna settle for a corn snake, or maybe a king and work my way up, getting husbandry experience and so on.


:devil::devil::devil::devil::censor::censor::censor: How many times do folks have to say this? stop regurgitatiing information that you have heard from elsewhere.

DWA snakes are very expensive eh? C'mon, give us some examples, how much could I expect to pay for a Sri Lankan green pitviper? How about a Western Diamondback rattler, or an Ethiopian Mountain adder

Which local authorities required barred/sealed windows?
There is no law regarding the "bare minimum" standard of a venomous room, it is entirely up to the local authority issuing the license, simply put, you will not get a license until you have met the criteria set by your individual LA.

James, you may as well be quoting passages from Stephen Hawking's theses on the formation of the universe for all that you understand of what you are saying. 
You remind me of a scene in "A Fish called Wanda" where Otto and Wanda are arguing:
Otto: "Apes don't read philosophy"
Wanda "Yes they do Otto, they just don't understand it!"


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## mad martin

There's nothing wrong with a Monocled Cobra for a first venomous.


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## exoticsadmirer

i thought venomous snakes were rather cheap due to the market of supply and demand the initial cost might be a little bit on the costly side safe-proofing the room to the council standards mine are bit up there own you nows but apart from that it's rather cheap as i see


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## stuartdouglas

To put it into perspective, I know of someone who had to give 25 baby WDB's away 'cos he couldn't sell them. At Houten this year, normal WDB's were selling for about €10 at the end of the show, contrast that with the €2000 for the _Bitis parviocula_ (Ethiopian Mountain Adder) or the €1500 for the _Zhaoermia mangshanensis_ (Mangshan pitviper) the year before and you get an idea of the range of prices.

So, a blanket statement of "DWA snakes are very expensive" is just moosesh*t really


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## Azemiops

Asking how much a venomous snake costs is the same as asking how much does a non-venomous snake cost, they all fetch different prices depending on supply and demand! Baby white-lipped Vipers were selling for a little as 10 euros at Houten last month, where as Mount Mang Pitvipers will set you back 1500 euros.


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## Azemiops

Ah Stu you beat me to it!


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## pythondave82

ViperLover said:


> Ummm....Yeah. Very expencive.
> 
> First, You need a spare room, Then you have to modify it to the bare minimum required by the law and you're local council....This may cost a few grand. You need the experience....Mentoring may come at a charge, and also so I have been advised as I want to get into the hobby....You need to be very experienced with non-venomous snakes aswell...which is what has put me off keeping DWA for the meantime, as I simply do not want to get bitten through in-experience. Also, landlords may not allow you to modify rooms so Ive been told...agreement from the houseing agents or the landlord is a must so I was informed.
> 
> Once you have your room done, you're vivariums built with locks, and keys.....the room with a lock, the windows barred, sealed or locked....OR both....You can apply for you're lisence......This costs a bomb depending on you're local council.
> 
> After you get your lisence....The cheapest thing is the snake itself. LOL
> 
> Sorry....I am not trying to sound like a know it all....But who would purchase a Monocled cobra for their first venomous snake? Thats a bit dangerous, eh?
> 
> I assumed it would be youre first....as if you had been keeping hots then you'd know the price range....or would know people who did...surely
> 
> I had similar questions like yours a week or two ago....I posted a thread, and what I said above is what I learnt from the advice given....and from what I had read about the topic. Now I am gonna settle for a corn snake, or maybe a king and work my way up, getting husbandry experience and so on.


 
Instead of wasting my time seeking advice from different venomous keepers and wasting 8 months thinking what layout would work best for me and my council, I should have really made the 200 mile trip to Southampton where me and you could have shot some pool and drunk Panda pop till the cows came home. 

I’m sure that would have been a definite pass with the council!


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## salvatoruk

Male Popeia nebularis:

















Female Popeia nebularis:


















Male Cryptelytrops albolabris:









Female Cryptelytrops albolabris:










Crotalus mitchelli stephensi:












Adult Female Tropidolaemus wagleri:









Young Female Tropidolaemus wagleri:



















Adult Male Naja siamensis:



















Adult Male Dendroaspis viridis:




























It's been a while since I put up new pictures so I'll sort some out in the week.

Laurie


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## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> There's nothing wrong with a Monocled Cobra for a first venomous.


 
After seeing David Weather's bite on the TV....I thought they needed a little more experience?


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## salvatoruk

ViperLover said:


> After seeing David Weather's bite on the TV....I thought they needed a little more experience?


Okay, so how many species can you name that react in a possitive way with your body after it envenomates you?

I don't think you're getting the seriousness of these animals are you...


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## ViperLover

salvatoruk said:


> Okay, so how many species can you name that react in a possitive way with your body after it envenomates you?
> 
> I don't think you're getting the seriousness of these animals are you...


 
I remember hearing once that Monocled Cobras were quite fiesty?


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## Azemiops

ViperLover said:


> After seeing David Weather's bite on the TV....I thought they needed a little more experience?


Your experience before getting a licence should reflect on the species you want to keep. If ultimately you want to keep cobras, then you should get the neccessary experience needed to keep them before you get your licence. Monocled cobras were the second venomous species i kept.


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## mad martin

Viperlover, there are three kinds of herpers. One's that learn the trade from google, one's that experience it for themselves and one's that find a happy medium. Google is great for the theory, but to make it knowledge, you need to experience the practical.
If you believe a Monocle cobra to be feisty, wait until you experience a Forest Cobra having a bad day.


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## Boa Boy

wow you lot have some really stunning snakes, I love the russles viper pics, and I saw some baby vogels pitvipers in viper n vine the other day i cant belive how nice they look when there adults the beautaful red and white lines on there flancks are amazing.


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## leeh1985

Some lovely pictures guys, I am hoping to take some pics of a few venomous next weekend and if I get permission from the owner I will post some pics up of them on here.

Viperlover I have been reading through some of your posts and I love the enthusiasm you have for the hobby but you seriously need to take a back seat when trying to give other people advice on how to keep venoumous and non venomous snakes as you have got no idea what you are talking about.

It's good to see that you are trying to learn but you really need to take into account what other keepers are telling you and know when you shut up quite literally and listen.

I hope that you find keeping snakes interesting and learn about how to keep them but you really need to listen which I think you trying to avoid.


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## Jellyman

Wow some awesome snakes here


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> I remember hearing once that Monocled Cobras were quite fiesty?


Who told you that? Or which web-site did you read that from?

I generally find Monocled cobras to be one of the easiest cobras to keep and work with.......
But then I’m _only_ talking from practical experience and tens of thousands of hours working with venomous..... not a Google search or amateur U-tube video :whistling2:

Oh and “*I remember hearing once*” makes it sound as though you have been around venomous for years... when in fact you have only been here 6 months and have never even kept a harmless pet snake.
You really need to stop giving out advice without actually having any experience at all.


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## SiUK

PDR said:


> Who told you that? Or which web-site did you read that from?
> 
> I generally find Monocled cobras to be one of the easiest cobras to keep and work with.......
> But then I’m _only_ talking from practical experience and tens of thousands of hours working with venomous..... not a Google search or amateur U-tube video :whistling2:
> 
> Oh and “*I remember hearing once*” makes it sound as though you have been around venomous for years... when in fact you have only been here 6 months and have never even kept a harmless pet snake.
> You really need to stop giving out advice without actually having any experience at all.


seriously James, take this mans advice


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## mad martin

I have to go with PDR, they are by miles one of the easiest cobras to work with.

Viperlover, stop being so stubborn. These guys are really trying to help you. The best way for you to learn is to read, read and read some more. Then ask, ask and ask some more. 
I was raised in the bush. I have known wild animals all my life, and I get on better with them than I do with most people. And its not just snakes. Yet, I find myself still asking questions and looking for information and reading other people's experiences etc.
Learn now, in a few years time you are ready to keep your own. Then you will be the one newbies look to for advice. Don't be a carthorse now, take the flaps off and learn. 

The internet can be a wonderful tool, if you know what to look for. But there is also a whole lot of bullshit on the 'net that has no validity whatsoever. Only be reading the books out there, and asking the questions that need to be asked, will you learn to separate the truth from bullshit.

An example: If Mike Perry writes an article about Black Mambas, you can pretty much take it to the bank. If Joe Soap writes an article on Black Mambas from his observations in a zoo in Alaska while he was visiting there with his parents (even though the words he used was very scientific), you can be pretty sure its gonna be a load of crap.
You are falling into the "Joe Soap" category. Not because you are an idiot, but because you will not yield to the advice from the experts on this site. Don't be stubborn


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## leecb0

I think the only thing that can be done now is to everyone ignore the guy, he either is a troll, or he thrives on the fact that some of the countrys top herpers have posted on his thread and in his own world this is some sort of kudos in that his posts are promting reaction from them?
i can guarantee most dwa keepers including myself he has tried to add as a friend. I admit he PMd me and i gave him advice to leave the dwa alone and get themselves a corn and start from the bottom and to read up on the subjects, but after i told him to do this i stopped replying to his pm,s.
If you are reading this James CHILL OUT sit take on board whats been said. My nine year old daughter has a corn snake a ball python and a three foot bosc, when she wants to know something she goes on websites or asks me, her knowledge of her animals is very good for her age and would proberbly put you to shame and is gained through EXPERIENCE


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## nighthunte29

is there an age limit to dwa? i have experience with animals and stuff, and gradually getting more and more, especially snakes, i have a fascination with the venomous snakes more than anything, obviously i cant get one at 15, but is the age limit 16, or 18 or something like that, thanks


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## stuartdouglas

nighthunte29 said:


> is there an age limit to dwa? i have experience with animals and stuff, and gradually getting more and more, especially snakes, i have a fascination with the venomous snakes more than anything, obviously i cant get one at 15, but is the age limit 16, or 18 or something like that, thanks


The minimum age for application for a DWA license is 18


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## paulrimmer69

might be a daft question but surely a council would be a bit suspicious about an 18 yr old applying for a dwa? no offence to anyone as im sure there are some exceptions


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## nighthunte29

paulrimmer69 said:


> might be a daft question but surely a council would be a bit suspicious about an 18 yr old applying for a dwa? no offence to anyone as im sure there are some exceptions


 why? not all 18 year olds live and die in track suits and carry knives, surely if you have spent $$$ on doing up a room dedicated to animals, you are serious about the hobby


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## RENT-A-GOAT

Some stunning snakes on here, The colouring is incredible. Can definitily see the appeal and much respect to those of you that take this sort of animal on.


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## paulrimmer69

nighthunte29 said:


> why? not all 18 year olds live and die in track suits and carry knives, surely if you have spent $$$ on doing up a room dedicated to animals, you are serious about the hobby


 
hence why i said im sure there are exeptions, fair point about the room i was more thinking that an inspector mite be a bit suspicious about the amount of experience an 18 yr old would have compared to someone say 10 years older, like i said before no offence to anyone as im sure there are good dwa keepers who started young


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## allie turtle

some very lovely pic's there people!!! much respect to you lot!!!!

and as for viperlover i've been handling and keeping snake's for for over 14yrs and i still don't feel ready to take on venomous snake's!!!

much respect to you guy's!!!!!


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## ViperLover

allie turtle said:


> some very lovely pic's there people!!! much respect to you lot!!!!
> 
> and as for viperlover i've been handling and keeping snake's for for over 14yrs and i still don't feel ready to take on venomous snake's!!!
> 
> much respect to you guy's!!!!!


 
I have a big interest for venomous reptiles....I aint into the tracksuits, knives, booze and drugs crud...I wonna make something of my life by doing something I am facinated by instead of becoming a waster, like many of my friends.

Each to their own,

I have been advised what to do, and I am doing it. I will apply for my DWA as and when I feel ready, and safe to do so. People on the forum have tried desperately to turn my ways by telling me useful facts about these animals....They suceeded and I've had some of the best herpers in the country, and the world for that matter advise me...and what some good and potentially life saving advise that was!

I'll start with venomous when I am good and learned, and experienced.....Its gonna be a lot longer then 5 years.


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## Grond

Some excellent pics!

Pit vipers almost make me want a DWA. But only almost! : victory:

All credit to you all. You're braver than me!

James, go back to looking for a king or a corn!

Having experienced in the flesh how fast a ratsnake or a carpet moves, may make you more wary about the thought of something with a potentially lethal bite on the end!


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## BigBaz

sum really great pix :no1:


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## RedClaw

greenvenom said:


> calliophis bivirgata
> image
> calliophis bivirgata
> image


Wow dude you have my dream snake 
blue coral snake : victory:


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## ViperLover

RedClaw said:


> Wow dude you have my dream snake
> blue coral snake : victory:


 
A gorgeous animal none-the-less.....But out of my league for now....A little too hot.


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## emily the boa

*hey*



Owzy said:


> Nice Atheris, how is it to keep?



i would love 1 of thies snakes but i wouldent be willing to take the risks that some with em lol..


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## herpboy

ViperLover said:


> A gorgeous animal none-the-less.....*But out of my league for now*....A little too hot.


is it just me or do you try to over power threads and make it about you ?


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## maffy

*DWAs*

Thanks to everyone for your pics!! I particularly like the Cape Cobra. 

Interesting reading for those wondering what the Immediate First Aid Advice is amongst professionals if you are bitten by a Cape Cobra:
Cape Cobra (Naja nivea)

Properly applied pressure bandaging (even for necrotic venoms such as Crotalus atrox) seem to be highly regarded by medical professionals. Of course, every licenced hot keeper has their own procedure in the event of Medical Emergency. 

Certainly an advantage for licence holders since you can ensure your local hospital is well informed.


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## Alfonzo

That vogels pitviper about 4 pages ago is immense! I love it. Theres some amazing snakes in here, a pleasure to look at them all!


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## Alfonzo

ViperLover said:


> After seeing David Weather's bite on the TV....I thought they needed a little more experience?


 
Do all venemous species not need an absolute wealth of experience? Viperlover, when you have some experience with a bitey non venemous snake you may begin to get even the tiniest bit of perspective. Dealing with something harmless that wants to bite your face is scary enough!


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## mustang100893

So what is in your league then, cobra, saw scale, how can you say that is a LITTLE out of you league for now, any hot is out of your league until you keep non-venomous for many many many years and get practical experience off an expert, once you get a harmless snake you will realise what kind of animal you are dealing with, i have handled harmless snakes for only a few years and currently handle them every Wednesday in college and had two corns a few years ago, i will not even try and blag you all by telling you i know a lot about snakes behaviour. But i did get bit by a snake a few months ago for the first time and by christ it shocks you even though it doesn't hurt, even now i worry because i know that a snake can go from completely docile to biting heck out of you, and i wanna works with venomous when i'm older so i need to know how to prevent myself getting bitten through not being as careless as i was, i treat a harmless now as if it were deadly because i feel that'd set me in good stead for when i do finally decide to keep hots and not before having a tutor to teach me as much practical and give me as much info as possible, you need to get yourself practical experience mate, as much as you possibly can, go to college or ask at a rescue centre, some have snakes.


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## mustang100893

Beat me to it and pretty sure you put it in better words than i did hahah: victory:: victory:


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## naja-naja

mate a bullsnake is out of your league, never mind somthing that actually has a danger with it.


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## mustang100893

naja-naja said:


> mate a *B*ull*S*nake is out of your league, never mind somthing that actually has a danger with it.


Nah think he pretty experienced with BS lol:2thumb:


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## Josh-sama

ViperLover said:


> A gorgeous animal none-the-less.....But out of my league for now....A little too hot.


A king snake is too hot for you. :Na_Na_Na_Na: 
(Joking... Or am I? *Evil laugh*)


Lovely pictures posted through the thread and really really nice to see such magnificent snakes. Loved the _Echis carinatus_ posted by Stuart. What's the common name for these guys?


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## LiamAndKec

Absolutely stunning pics, people. I am loving the colours on these snakes, even the duller ones because I can immagine the great camo they'd have.

Probably never going to keep hots. I am more interested in lizards myself. I'm fine with my Cali King for now. <33


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## mad martin

> Interesting reading for those wondering what the Immediate First Aid Advice is amongst professionals if you are bitten by a Cape Cobra:
> Cape Cobra (Naja nivea)


Cape Cobras and Black Mambas have a unique venom action. The venom travels through the capillary system, so as long as the blood flows, the venom will continue to flow, regardless of the bandage. Mike Perry advocates the use of a tourniquet in first aid for both species. I am inclined to agree with him.
Antivenom for a Cape Cobra bite is also fairly useless after paralysis has set in.


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## Mememe

mad martin said:


> Cape Cobras and Black Mambas have a unique venom action. The venom travels through the capillary system, so as long as the blood flows, the venom will continue to flow, regardless of the bandage.


Could you elaborate on how exactly it does this?


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## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Cape Cobras and Black Mambas have a unique venom action. The venom travels through the capillary system, so as long as the blood flows, the venom will continue to flow, regardless of the bandage. Mike Perry advocates the use of a tourniquet in first aid for both species. I am inclined to agree with him.
> Antivenom for a Cape Cobra bite is also fairly useless after paralysis has set in.


 
Interesting...

Do you have a link? I want to read more.

Cheers!


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## mad martin

Well venom isn't my field of study, which is why I am not spewing it like I know.
According to Mike, those to species cause the body to absorb the venom differently from other neurotoxins in species here. The majority of these neurotoxins are absorbed through the lymphatic system, making a crepe bandage effective.
Those two venoms are absorbed by the capillary system. I do not know enough of their venom compositions to elaborate.


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## mad martin

No I do not, it is a part of his course material.


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## ViperLover

Maybe Dr. Rowley could answer a little more?


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## maffy

mad martin said:


> Cape Cobras and Black Mambas have a unique venom action. The venom travels through the capillary system, so as long as the blood flows, the venom will continue to flow, regardless of the bandage. Mike Perry advocates the use of a tourniquet in first aid for both species. I am inclined to agree with him.
> Antivenom for a Cape Cobra bite is also fairly useless after paralysis has set in.


A tourniquet IS a "properly applied pressure bandage" as per the Dr's advice in the article I provided. See my previous quote.

Secondly the capillary system IS part of your blood circulatory system. 
The capillaries are the smallest vessels. 

Certainly a "tourniquet" or "properly applied pressure bandage" (meaning the same thing) would be VERY useful to significantly reduce the flow of venom to the heart, lungs and other major organs. Unless bitten on the torso of course, er...most unlucky if so! 

Panic stricken victims will die sooner. So....non-licence holders who shouldnt be owning venomous!.. please ensure you have a very good procedure in place. Well prepared and <practised> drills will greatly benefit survival from lethal venomous species. You can also expect the Police to prosecute after...if you live. 

Oh and well informed hospitals able to quickly obtain antivenins are a great help too :lol2: .


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## mad martin

A tourniquet is not even close to a pressure bandage mate. 
A pressure bandage applies sustainable pressure over a large area. In other words you still have blood flow. A tourniquet cuts off the blood flow completely, allowing you about an hour and a half before losing the limb is a possibility.



> Secondly the capillary system IS part of your blood circulatory system.
> The capillaries are the smallest vessels


I know. Hence the tourniquet, to stop the flow of blood. A Snouted Cobra's venom, for example, is absorbed by the lymphatic system and not the capillaries. 

I added that as advice, because in most cases, first aid personnel are not allowed to apply a tourniquet. At least, that is the case here. If you do not stop the flow of venom, and your body starts going into paralysis from a N. nivea bite, you have a very good chance of dying.


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## maffy

*First Aid Digression*

Dear Mad Martin,

You appear to be confused by wording or terminology here.

Quite correct, a tourniquet is a device for restricting blood flow.

If you read the article I linked fully(Cape Cobra (Naja nivea)) you will note that the person in question is referring to a bandage used as a tourniquet device. By "tightly" restricting blood flow starting at the puncture area.

A tourniquet doesnt have to be a pre-manufactured product for this specific purpose (although army kits for swift first aid are very useful). Bandaging will work most sufficiently as a tourniquet if properly applied. I was careful to stress the point of "properly applied" usage. Ever given a blood sample for instance?

If someone is bitten on their own or in the company of another person who understands the correct application (...and really any venomous owners should learn how to apply one...) then if it is possible to apply a tourniquet, do so. 

Of course, Mamba's and other swift acting venoms may not give a lone person sufficient time aside from notifying Emergency Transportation to a hospital...

As regards lymph nodes you are talking about things without a full understanding otherwise you would be aware of their close proximity to the blood circulatory system in general. Since the lymph nodes are fluid based once again a tourniquet device may likely be of great benefit in restricting the flow of venom. 

:lol2:

ps you do have a great collection of venomous which I certainly admire very much.


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## stuartdouglas

for my 2p worth............I was under the impression that elapid venom does it's damage via transport round the lymph system and the pressure bandage restricts the flow of blood and slows down the venom's progress into the lymph system, thereby buying the victim more time to get medical attention. A tourniquet as far as I was taught many moons ago was designed to completeley stop blood flow to/from a limb, useful in the case of arterial bleeding, but it brings with it a host of other problems including toxic shock syndrome from sudden release of a tourniquet allowing "dead" blood into the body and also hypovolaemic shock from a sudden rush of blood from the body's core into the limb when the tourniquet is released causing a massive drop in blood pressure. Both of these situations have been encountered when releasing victims of crushing injuries, but the principle is the same.


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## ViperLover

stuartdouglas said:


> for my 2p worth............I was under the impression that elapid venom does it's damage via transport round the lymph system and the pressure bandage restricts the flow of blood and slows down the venom's progress into the lymph system, thereby buying the victim more time to get medical attention. A tourniquet as far as I was taught many moons ago was designed to completeley stop blood flow to/from a limb, useful in the case of arterial bleeding, but it brings with it a host of other problems including toxic shock syndrome from sudden release of a tourniquet allowing "dead" blood into the body and also hypovolaemic shock from a sudden rush of blood from the body's core into the limb when the tourniquet is released causing a massive drop in blood pressure. Both of these situations have been encountered when releasing victims of crushing injuries, but the principle is the same.


 
Hey Stuart,

Because a tourniquet completely restricts blood flow, could the tissue cells also die resulting in complete amputation of the limb or didgit?


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## mad martin

Maffy, you did not read it



> Immediately wrap a large crepe bandage snugly around the bitten limb starting at the site of the bite and working proximally up the limb (the full length if possible). The bandage should be as tight as one might bind a sprained ankle. (See attached copy from "First Aid for Snakebite" by Dr. S.K. Sutherland.)


No one ties a sprained ankle as tight as a tourniquet. 
A properly applied pressure bandage is a very different thing. With a properly applied pressure bandage, one should still be able to feel a pulse on both sides of the immobilised limb, i.e. the blood still flows. A tourniquet is meant to stop the bloodflow completely.



> Ever given a blood sample for instance?


That is not a pressure bandage. A pressure bandage is applied over the length of the limb. Unless the UK draws blood differently to here, I would be surprised they would use a pressure bandage to get blood. 



> Secure the splint to the bandaged limb to keep the limb as rigid and unmoving as possible. Avoid bending or moving
> the limb excessively while applying the splint


Who uses a splint with a tourniquet? 
I suggest re-reading that protocol.



> for my 2p worth............I was under the impression that elapid venom does it's damage via transport round the lymph system and the pressure bandage restricts the flow of blood and slows down the venom's progress into the lymph system, thereby buying the victim more time to get medical attention.


According to Mike Perry, the Black Mamba and the Cape Cobra venoms differ here. Instead of being absorbed by the lymphatic system, it flows directly with the bloodstream, negating a pressure bandage and calling for blood restriction.



> A tourniquet as far as I was taught many moons ago was designed to completeley stop blood flow to/from a limb, useful in the case of arterial bleeding, but it brings with it a host of other problems including toxic shock syndrome from sudden release of a tourniquet allowing "dead" blood into the body and also hypovolaemic shock from a sudden rush of blood from the body's core into the limb when the tourniquet is released causing a massive drop in blood pressure. Both of these situations have been encountered when releasing victims of crushing injuries, but the principle is the same


It does do damage, but his theory is "rather lose the arm than your life".


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## ViperLover

This thread has gone way off-topic.

Probably my fault, so if it is (I haven't read the whole thread in a while) then I am sorry to the OP.


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## stuartdouglas

Hi Martin, 

it's not the application of a tourniquet that causes the problems, but rather the release of it. Once a tourniquet has been applied it should be maintained until the victim is in medical care to better deal with the effects of its removal. I was unaware of the difference in transport for the venoms of mambas and Capes, but even the application of a secure pressure bandage will slow down the blood flow sufficiently for the patient to get to hospital (hopefully)
As you say, it's better to lose a finger or limb than to lose one's life, but if bitten by a captive snake then the keeper should be able to summon medical assistance reasonably quickly and not need to resort to extreme measures, out in the bush, it would be a different matter altogether. I think it's a case of needs must and one must be prepared to adapt to the situation and act accordingly


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## mad martin

Hey Stuart

The other factor is this: Once paralysis starts setting in from a Cape Cobra bite, the AV will no longer be effective. So whilst the pressure bandage slows it down, depending on the severity of the bite, it might not be enough to slow down the venom before paralysis sets in. Keep in mind that drooping eyelids etc. are symptoms of paralysis. 
Then, especially because a Cape Cobra is exotic there, will your doctors know that the AV will no longer work, or will they just continue to try it?


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## ViperLover

mad martin said:


> Hey Stuart
> 
> The other factor is this: Once paralysis starts setting in from a Cape Cobra bite, the AV will no longer be effective. So whilst the pressure bandage slows it down, depending on the severity of the bite, it might not be enough to slow down the venom before paralysis sets in. Keep in mind that drooping eyelids etc. are symptoms of paralysis.
> Then, especially because a Cape Cobra is exotic there, will your doctors know that the AV will no longer work, or will they just continue to try it?


 
So this makes a Cape Cobra an incredibly dangerous species? I didn't realise it was as nasty as that. Cheers Martin.


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## Richcymru

ViperLover said:


> So this makes a Cape Cobra an incredibly dangerous species? I didn't realise it was as nasty as that. Cheers Martin.


Ive tried my hardest not to reply, but really!!


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## Grond

ViperLover said:


> So this makes a Cape Cobra an incredibly dangerous species? I didn't realise it was as nasty as that. Cheers Martin.


No, no, no.

What makes them an incredibly dangerous species, is their ninja abilities.

They can turn jet black at will, scale vertical walls, and carry 100 concealed weapons beneath their hoods.......:whistling2:


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## stuartdouglas

mad martin said:


> Hey Stuart
> 
> The other factor is this: Once paralysis starts setting in from a Cape Cobra bite, the AV will no longer be effective. So whilst the pressure bandage slows it down, depending on the severity of the bite, it might not be enough to slow down the venom before paralysis sets in. Keep in mind that drooping eyelids etc. are symptoms of paralysis.
> Then, especially because a Cape Cobra is exotic there, will your doctors know that the AV will no longer work, or will they just continue to try it?


our A&E (ER) docs would be advised by LSTM of the correct treatment for any exotic bites, there are two eminent names that are contacted in the event of a bite/sting from a non-native venomous animal, Prof's Warrell and Lalloo. If these two don't know what to do then you are probably about to make medical history!


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## stuartdouglas

Grond said:


> No, no, no.
> 
> What makes them an incredibly dangerous species, is their ninja abilities.
> 
> They can turn jet black at will, scale vertical walls, and carry 100 concealed weapons beneath their hoods.......:whistling2:


Ha, I found my little 'uns stash and took them away from her, I find it's the badly dubbed hissing that's the worst tho:lol2:


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## mad martin

> our A&E (ER) docs would be advised by LSTM of the correct treatment for any exotic bites, there are two eminent names that are contacted in the event of a bite/sting from a non-native venomous animal, Prof's Warrell and Lalloo. If these two don't know what to do then you are probably about to make medical history!


Its important to make sure your doctor knows beforehand exactly what to do. The time spent contacting someone could go very ill for you. Consider this: Throughout their range, there are more Puff Adders than you can poke a stick at, yet they still kill the most people. Add to the fact that doctors are experienced in their treatment and they still lose many victims. Its one of the few species where a protocol mistake may well be your last mistake.


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## Herp breeder

Grond said:


> No, no, no.
> 
> What makes them an incredibly dangerous species, is their ninja abilities.
> 
> They can turn jet black at will, scale vertical walls, and carry 100 concealed weapons beneath their hoods.......:whistling2:


Ha ha ha that just kept me laughing lol nice snakes on her people very nice pictures would love some of them but just not experienced enough with them yet lol might have to just stick to looking at photo's lol 

viperlover stop giving out advice sit back and learn from these guys:whistling2:


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## PDR

ViperLover said:


> Maybe Dr. Rowley could answer a little more?


Dr Rowley, hmmm I think I could get used to that title, but alas, it is just plain Mr Rowley.... this is yet another incidence of you jumping to conclusions.


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## Josh-sama

Josh-sama said:


> Lovely pictures posted through the thread and really really nice to see such magnificent snakes. Loved the _Echis carinatus_ posted by Stuart. What's the common name for these guys?


Seems my question was drowned out by asssumptions by the DWAs most experianced member who lives Vipers. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## PDR

stuartdouglas said:


> our A&E (ER) docs would be advised by LSTM of the correct treatment for any exotic bites, there are two eminent names that are contacted in the event of a bite/sting from a non-native venomous animal, Prof's Warrell and Lalloo. If these two don't know what to do then you are probably about to make medical history!


Agreed, that is why I leave it up to them :2thumb:
Our Protocols do recommend the use of Pressure Bandages for certain species within our Herpetairum. My colleagues Professors Warrell and Lalloo are Clinicians with extensive, in depth knowledge of snake-bites and their treatment. They have been involved in countless cases both here in the UK and overseas.
 I have been treated for bites by both of these men and I can’t think of anyone else I would rather have overseeing a bite case. 


I do have personal experience of several snake bite cases, but I am not a Clinician and so will not give out advice regarding treatment on a Public forum.


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## stuartdouglas

Josh-sama said:


> Seems my question was drowned out by asssumptions by the DWAs most experianced member who lives Vipers. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


It's a Saw-Scaled Viper, this particular one is _E.c sochureki_, native to the Middle East, Indian sub-continent and Western Asia


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## Josh-sama

stuartdouglas said:


> It's a Saw-Scaled Viper, this particular one is _E.c sochureki_, native to the Middle East, Indian sub-continent and Western Asia
> 
> image


Very nice snake, and thanks for the informative response. : victory:


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## Owzy

stuartdouglas said:


> It's a Saw-Scaled Viper, this particular one is _E.c sochureki_, native to the Middle East, Indian sub-continent and Western Asia
> 
> image


Not hot enough here it seems for them, only seen on in captivity so far!

Will keep looking though...


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## stuartdouglas

keep the pics coming Owen, it's good to see herps in their natural habitat


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## maffy

*dwa*

yeah I really like the saw scaled viper. Would still love to see more pics of your beautiful Cape Cobra specimen. Don't know why but if I went DWA I am interested in Naja nivea very much. 

Definately enjoying cobras as they are incredibly fascinating. The fairly recent King Cobra programme is still on my Sky+ and its due yet another viewing.


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## leecb0

*T. Albolabris*

my female
































sorry for the quality im no photgrapher


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## stuartdouglas

Love the yawn!!!


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## leecb0

I was lucky i just settled them in and the camara was next to me as i was watching them there is another photo of her wide open but i cut the top off:bash:


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## Owzy

Ha cool pictures of the White lipped!


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## leecb0

cheers mate some cool pix your sending too mate


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