# Concern



## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

I enjoy welcoming new life into the world as much as the next keeper / breeder but something I have become increasingly concerned about - particularly when you consider the increasing energy (cost of living in general), the cancellation of Doncaster and the difficulty in selling surplus animals to the continent - is the seemingly unrelenting production of young.

My question is (in the hope of fostering some adult discussion) are we charging head long into a crisis within the hobby whereby more animals are being produced than the number of suitable homes available?

What prompted this post is while perusing FB, I see an increasing number of (usually Royal Python) breeders showing 'clutch number 500' - surely 3 or 4 of these (not to mention the breeders not of FB or those with just a handful of clutches) and the market will quickly become saturated?


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## arwen_7 (Oct 21, 2009)

I think this has been touched on in a few posts inthe last few months, but yes. I totally agree that if we are not already at saturation point, I suspect over the summer months we, as a hobby, will reach it and more and more "older/ grown on/ sub adult/ kept back" animals will become available. And probably sit on for sale lists for months.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Indeed it has been spoken about previously but as it shows no signs of slowing down / abating I thought it was worth discussing again. 

During covid the number of reptiles being purchased seemed to increase exponentially - as I said, with the increase in energy prices this doesn't appear to be such a good idea. 

Also, with the publication of the housing guidelines and the increase in frozen food prices it is all amounting to a perfect storm which, if we are not careful - could lead to a massive problem. 



arwen_7 said:


> I think this has been touched on in a few posts inthe last few months, but yes. I totally agree that if we are not already at saturation point, I suspect over the summer months we, as a hobby, will reach it and more and more "older/ grown on/ sub adult/ kept back" animals will become available. And probably sit on for sale lists for months.


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## peterson (Feb 28, 2018)

I recently saw an article of a 60+ year old ball python laying eggs in a zoo. I wonder how many people even have ball pythons over 20 years old. 
For some species, there are lots and lots of young, for many others it's really hard to find offspring. Even though those species are bred and offered regularly within Europe.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

peterson said:


> I recently saw an article of a 60+ year old ball python laying eggs in a zoo. I wonder how many people even have ball pythons over 20 years old.
> For some species, there are lots and lots of young, for many others it's really hard to find offspring. Even though those species are bred and offered regularly within Europe.


I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Royal Python living much longer than 25 years or so 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## peterson (Feb 28, 2018)

Zincubus said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Royal Python living much longer than 25 years or so
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Elderly ball python lays eggs 'without male help'

Estimated to be 62 years old, been in the zoo since 1961, not been with a male for over 15 years.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

peterson said:


> I recently saw an article of a 60+ year old ball python laying eggs in a zoo. I wonder how many people even have ball pythons over 20 years old.


A few of us here have had or still own royals of 20+ years....I had a male that unfortunately passed away after an adverse reaction to anti-biotics and was just shy of 22 at the time.

With regards to the topic of this thread I do think we are heading for a period of saturation. You only need to see the increase in the adds in the classified section of this forum over the past few weeks to see the impact the increases in energy and food is having. I personally stopped my breeding project back in January as the rumours about Russian activity, and the impact any war would have should it happen were looking more likely, but if the female does drop a clutch after the five locks I had seen prior then it puts me in to the dilemma as to incubate or dispose of the eggs. 

The problem is that either the hatchlings will become devalued as the market place is swamped with hatchlings come late summer / autumn or people will be selling them at inflated prices in order to recoup the increased cost in maintaining the collection, but as the market is likely to be really competitive will end up selling them at a loss just to move them on and not have to house and feed them.

I'm on a fixed income and things are tight now. I've got a small collection of 10 snakes, 9 of which are all in heated vis with ceramics. I've yet to find out the true impact the recent and next increase is going to be. It's not worth me trying to downsize and move some of them on, as everyone else is in the same boat, unless you have the means to increase your personal income, or are rich enough that it doesn't impact you. I've already got rid of loads of corals and fish when I closed down my reef tank last year to try and save on the electricity cost, and even if I did co-habit all the female royals it will only save me a little cash in the scheme of things, but its something I'm considering doing.

Having said that, Wrigglies opened another shop last month... so even with inflation rising, shops having less on their shelves, and fuel and energy spiralling out of control it would seem there are still outlets and possibilities of selling any surplus offspring which is encouraging...


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## al stotton (Jul 27, 2008)

I have always aimed for quality over quantity when it comes to production , this kind of management has always served me well. 

In terms of saturation /no.s I have to agree in the case of royals they've simple reached overload , this is not the case with what I breed and demand has never been higher , but I still will not change my production protocols.
If the income from offspring covers the food and power bills I'm more than happy with that , money has never been a driving force for me , hence keeping only_ Pituophis_


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I enjoy welcoming new life into the world as much as the next keeper / breeder but something I have become increasingly concerned about - particularly when you consider the increasing energy (cost of living in general), the cancellation of Doncaster and the difficulty in selling surplus animals to the continent - is the seemingly unrelenting production of young.
> 
> My question is (in the hope of fostering some adult discussion) are we charging head long into a crisis within the hobby whereby more animals are being produced than the number of suitable homes available?
> 
> What prompted this post is while perusing FB, I see an increasing number of (usually Royal Python) breeders showing 'clutch number 500' - surely 3 or 4 of these (not to mention the breeders not of FB or those with just a handful of clutches) and the market will quickly become saturated?


Potentially yes there may be more animals than homes in terms of the commoner species, but this has been the case for years. The same issues do not really apply to people who breed the more unusual/niche species, like myself, you Fraser, Al, etc. I mean some of the species kept by us 3 alone are so niche they have a diminished market anyway! One clutch can be hard to sell. 

I do not believe the cancellation of Doncaster is a big problem, it is most likely just going to be moved anyway, however even if it is cancelled people will still hunt/travel/pay for an animal if they really want it. Covid and the cancellation of all shows did not mean I could not shift animals, it was not really a problem. I prefer my animals to go to people who have actively hunted and wanted a species, it means they are more likely to care for it. Browsing reptile shows for random things or bargains is the lazy and cheap way to get animals. Finding contacts, talking to them, asking the right questions is how you get what you want, and they're the people who do well with the animals. Our country is not very big, it is easy to drive somewhere and collect an animal, people who won't drive a few hours to collect don't want it enough. 

The ease of moving species (non-CITES) is increasing as borders become more understanding of the rules and how it works, I don't think it was a very high priority for them. Many couriers are now offering deliveries and collections from European shows, we have used Ridgeway to take animals to Europe and they were very good, no issues. 

The main problem I foresee is the rise in electricity costs will mean many keepers will sell off lots of their collection, adult animals are harder to move on, many people only want babies.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

The market for mass produced species such as corns, royals and hognoses became saturated years ago. The current prices reflect this. Look at royals. At the peak of the demand for them, hatchling spiders were a good £250 each, as we're pastels, lessers etc. £350 for mojaves. Now they fetch £50 if that. Only the pieds and albinos seem to have kept their value. Which is probably due to being one of the few morphs that are recessive.
Hognoses are the same. Albinos used to be at least £300, now about the same as a wild type.
For as long as people buy snakes, there will be a demand and so others will breed them.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Interestingly they just announced on the radio that the head of the regulator in the energy sector has said the cap is going to rise by another £900 to around £2800 in September..... be interesting to see if all those breeders of Royals with 300+ tubs that are "hobbyists " will still be in business next year, or if it will effect sales as we might expect.



LiasisUK said:


> The main problem I foresee is the rise in electricity costs will mean many keepers will sell off lots of their collection, adult animals are harder to move on, many people only want babies.


Looking at the classified section of the forum we're seeing that already.


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