# new viv build



## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

new viv build with waterfall hope you enjoy 
























































so far iv just used cuttings and plants from my other vivs probably add some rocks to increase the land area as well next week










and iv finally used up all my space


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sam what are you keeping now,and what's this one for,
Nice work well done :2thumb:
Stu


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

still got the 4 hyloxalus azureiventris, a couple have just recently started calling.Then I have a pair of tri colours and a trio of male tinc cobalts. I'm not to sure what I want to put in this viv yet... I guess I could reduce the water area/level and get some more darts :hmm: but then something that uses the water could be fun too


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Hey Sam, I know what it feels like to use up all the space, our house is completely jam packed now!!

Looks good though mate, how long from start to finish did the build take you? What about drying times?


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

Terrarium Supplies said:


> Hey Sam, I know what it feels like to use up all the space, our house is completely jam packed now!!
> 
> Looks good though mate, how long from start to finish did the build take you? What about drying times?


wasnt to bad about a day for the expanding foam another day for the gorilla glue and soil layer 

one thing i have learnt there is always more space!!


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

added in some java/flame moss and a few more broms as well as adding some peat plates to the background that have already sprouted a ton of random shoots 

I was thinking about maybe adding some cherry shrimp(Still reading up on them any pointer Ade?) after the water has cycled... still cant decide on what to keep in here any ideas? Im really getting tempted to fill in some of the water area and get more darts :2thumb:but then that still leaves the question of what darts


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Reduce the water a little and get some thumbnail darts. Mine love the water to deposite the tadpoles in.


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

fatlad69 said:


> Reduce the water a little and get some thumbnail darts. Mine love the water to deposite the tadpoles in.


yea i would like to see the water area used bit of luck ill be able to pick some up at pras :2thumb: moved in 1 of my tinc cobalts thats lost a bit of weight to monitor his feeding for now though


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

sambridge15 said:


> I guess I could reduce the water area/level and get some more darts :hmm: but then something that uses the water could be fun too


Thats gotta be Leucs :2thumb:.

Mike


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## rosy boa mad (Aug 17, 2008)

fire bellied toads woo hahaha


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

so i bought 4 leucs back at pras for the viv(removed the water area) so the leucs were doing great good eaters really bold up until about a month ago. They gradually appeared less and less. I put this down to them being new baby frogs iv kept darts for a while now and all my new frogs spent the first few months mainly hiding. 

Today after having not seen the frogs for coming on 2 weeks I decided to make sure they were all ok... I searched everywhere removed the plants then the decor then the background the substrate .broke the entire viv down no frogs no bodies 

I checked every item I removed from the viv every nook and cranny painstakingly searched through even sifted the entire substrate! still no frogs or bodies :banghead: pretty gutted really. The viv was secure no way they could have escaped other than during feedings and that seems very very unlikely.Temps and humidity both fine all my other frogs are doing great 

really cant figure out how they could of vanished and iv totaly destroyed the viv that was growing in really nicely as if losing 4 frogs wasnt bad enough iv managed to squeeze all the plants into other vivs until I get this one resorted


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Gutted for you mate!


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

It doesnt take long for sprintails and woodlice to get rid of a small dead frog especially if they died at different times so if they havent escaped thats whats proberbly happened.
Dont know if i read it right but dont think it was a good idea putting the plants out of the viv the leucs were in and putting them into other vivs containing frogs.

Richie


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

richie.b said:


> dont think it was a good idea putting the plants out of the viv the leucs were in and putting them into other vivs containing frogs.


I concur Richie.... Plants that have been in contact with frogs that subsequently died should go straight in the bin or, at the very least, be strongly disinfected. I don't even move plants between vivs containing healthy frogs!

I'm very sorry you lost your frogs, so don't take this as a dig, but hopefully it might help people in the future. This is one of the main benefits of quarantining new animals. A) if they had been monitored in a QT environment we might be having a conversation about how to help frogs that weren't feeding etc. and B) if they died in QT it would have negated the need to strip out an entire viv with all of the time and costs involved. 

Nick


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

As per advice Iv removed the plants set up some t5 over the vivarium and moved them all back. As for QT I'm not a fan of moving frogs so repeatedly. I have a QT viv but I only use it when I notice a problem .I had been feeding the viv and the frogs had all been good feeders aso what with them being new frogs it seemed most likely they were just hiding.

Admittedly I wish I'd searched sooner but again didn't want to stress the frogs.the viv was made with allot of caves in the background I just thought they were all hiding in one of those.So annoying not knowing what happened. 

Viv was only gorilla glue and eco earth with driftwood. Plants were from rainforest vivs so nothing toxic


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

sambridge15 said:


> As for QT I'm not a fan of moving frogs so repeatedly.


Once?

Might be worth thinking about it in future as you could save yourself a lot of time and money...

Nick


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

DrNick said:


> Once?
> 
> Might be worth thinking about it in future as you could save yourself a lot of time and money...
> 
> Nick



once? it would be 3 times from the pras sellers viv, to a qt viv, to the actual viv. seems like an awful lot of stress to put on young frogs over such a short space of time.I appreciate the advice though


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I meant one additional move - sorry, that wasn't very clear! 

Anyway, I know what you mean and it's good to be sensitive to the stress we expose the animals to, but quarantine done properly should not be a stressful experience for a frog.

Sorry if this is a little off topic, it could probably do with it's own thread, but I'd like to point out that having lost count of the number of frogs I have quarantined over the years (certainly 50+) I have never once lost a frog in quarantine or shortly thereafter.

You might say, in that case why bother? My answer would be that I would rather QT 100 frogs for no reason than let one with nasties slip through into an occupied viv. This is helped by only buying healthy frogs from people I trust implicitely.

Quarantine sometimes gets a bad rap because people who have lost frogs while in QT, or have heard of people who have, tend to blame the QT rather than laying the blame where it belongs - at the door of the people who sold them sub-standard frogs in the first place. The logic of that argument is skewed since the point of QT is that if frogs are sick, they present while in QT... Healthy frogs going into QT will be perfectly healthy coming out. 

It's a shame that people so often seem to be much more enthusiastic about blaming the QT protocol when it's very likely that the frogs were compromised when they were sold. Because of this QT gets a bad rap and seller standards never improve.

Again, sorry - bit of a rant ;-)

Nick


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sam the thing that worries me more than "not quarantining" your frogs.
You put them into their new viv, which in fact is very capable of being used for quarantine as there had been no frogs in it previously and there were presumably no more frogs going into it.
You say that you hadn`t seen them in 2 weeks.
Leucs don`t hide like that unless something is seriously wrong.
Death in this case by the sound of it.
After a day or 2 you should have been in there having a nosey.
Leucs are one frog which is always on the go and the fact your not seeing them should have had alarm bells going.
It`s too late now to start worrying about what went wrong because your never going to find out.
But, learn from what happened to save you going through it again.
Hopefully this incident won`t put you off getting more.
All the best for the next frogs you get.

Mike


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Sam the thing that worries me more than "not quarantining" your frogs.
> You put them into their new viv, which in fact is very capable of being used for quarantine as there had been no frogs in it previously and there were presumably no more frogs going into it.
> You say that you hadn`t seen them in 2 weeks.
> Leucs don`t hide like that unless something is seriously wrong.
> ...


I'm going to get the viv sorted again over the weekend.I still have the cobalts, azureventris and tri colours so im not to put off just gutted:bash:I'll get the viv set up monitored for any problems and hopefully pick up some more darts in a few months

As for boldness if they hadn't been so newly introduced to the viv I'd have gone in sooner 

Iv ordered the iis epiweb background so it will be allot easier to find the next inhabitant.Im done with complicated caves and backgrounds


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I hear you on complicated vivs.
Simple is often the best way.
As Epiweb has been getting spoken about this past week elsewhere some photo`s of how you set it up and how it turns out would be nice to see.
Good luck with it.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sam,I'm gutted for you kiddo,i think Nick's/Richie's words to be wise i would ask that you watch the hell out of your other frogs as i'm scared for them, cross contamination via possibly contaminated plants,scares the living crap out of me.
I'd also ask a tiny bit more in that you bin every thing in this viv and start over.You bleach the viv(or otherwise if Dr Nick can suggest better have a word with him,he has way more expertise than me on these things!!) and then you wash the hell out of it repeatedly and again and again.....and again and again until your beyond sure no trace what so ever could be left of a sterilising chemical to harm the new occupants .
You pick your self up put this behind you 

Then you build it again:gasp:
When your done and your sure your happy that you've got this nailed Shaz and I will sort ya 4 leucs for nowt/nothing /nada They will be around 3/4 months old and you'll have to come and get them ,and you'll have to bring a poly box to carry em home. 
I would like you to qt them, because i believe in this stuff,but i won't force that on you,this ain't my way,but Nick's rant is wise and worthy and i believe these are the best paths for our hobby to take.
ok don't ask me how to qt a tinc out of a viv,i haven't worked that out yet,but I will oneday:Na_Na_Na_Na:



Bro pick your self up get this behind you get this sorted and back to being a happy dart guy,
and We'll sort your new frogs,


Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sorry Stu but i`m just curious here.
Are you saying that I was wrong with MY comments ?

Mike


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Sam,I'm gutted for you kiddo,i think Nick's/Richie's words to be wise i would ask that you watch the hell out of your other frogs as i'm scared for them, cross contamination via possibly contaminated plants,scares the living crap out of me.
> I'd also ask a tiny bit more in that you bin every thing in this viv and start over.You bleach the viv(or otherwise if Dr Nick can suggest better have a word with him,he has way more expertise than me on these things!!) and then you wash the hell out of it repeatedly and again and again.....and again and again until your beyond sure no trace what so ever could be left of a sterilising chemical to harm the new occupants .
> You pick your self up put this behind you
> 
> ...


I would take Stu up on his kind and very generous offer and you can guarantee the frogs he gives you will be healthy. We have all made mistakes and sometimes it's nothing we have done wrong.

I know what you are saying regarding complicated vivs. They are a pain when things go wrong but rewarding when we get it all right. I think epiweb is a ' marmite' product, you either love it or hate it but like Mike I would also be interested with how it goes.

Good luck!

Adam


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Sorry Stu but i`m just curious here.
> Are you saying that I was wrong with MY comments ?
> 
> Mike


I honestly had to go back and look Mike, i saw Sam hurting and reacted,i take so long to post that other posts have occurred whist I'm trying to get the bloody words right

Now i wouldn't qt luecs in viv,even from me .I would try and keep all new frogs safe away from my other frogs for a good while so i could watch them.But i would risk all,ie scrapping a viv,but still being damn careful,about cross contamination with tincs,because I haven't found away around this yet,without fearing they would die
I totally agree one should see leucs up and about and would have been scared much earlier than Sam was. But mike we both have leucs we know what they are like,Sam doesn't so i understand him not wanting to bother new frogs and stress them,further after a move
.
Mike i'm running abit scared for us all at the moment,i have good reason too.I have something like 30yrs working with birds,as a pro.Mate I've reared thousands i've watched a few real hard core devasting diseases wipe out huge numbers of stock.Both waterfowl and poutry,ie mareks and duck viral enteritis. Because proper QT protocols were not followed.
I am seeing direct parallels in our froggy world,frogs dieing and no one know WTF is going on


I think we all need to be damn careful, tis all.Mike darts aren't about us all using the same methods, or even agreeing on them: 
It is real important you understand where I'm coming from Mike,this is not about fighting with my fellow froggers ,but about saying what i believe to be the best for our frogs.
That is keeping new frogs away from others if it is possible ie QT,and that totally includes frogs from me,or any other collection.

Sam has put alot of work into that viv,and the shit has hit the fan,i don't blame him it brakes my bloody heart,but a simple qt tub out of viv a shed load of leaf litter and i know damn well those leucs would have thrived(providing they were healthy). they would have been easy to check on and if something was wrong he might have spotted it sooner,but he wouldn't have lost the viv plants and his work

Stu 

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Stu we`ve had several chats on here and on the phone etc so we both know what we`re about.
But we have a guy here who took new frogs and put them into a new viv and we have a Dr, NOT a vet ranting on about quarantining frogs.
THAT is what will make Sam feel bad more than anything as he`ll be thinking he`s done wrong.
Many keepers put new frogs into new vivs which can be as good as any quarantine viv.
Who says the quarantine viv isn`t infected with anything ?
Yes there is a question mark over the replanting of everything into other vivs without knowing what the frogs died from, but I never mentioned that as it had already been done.
There is a little story which is relevant to this and which i`ll tell you next time we meet up and which might open your eyes a wee bit, remind me to tell you.
Anyway, nice one on offering Sam replacement frogs, I did the exact same thing at xmas for someone who lost his Azureus froglets.
The way I see it Sam and others in the same situation need our help and critisism like what was handed out is not the way.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

frogman955 said:


> Stu we`ve had several chats on here and on the phone etc so we both know what we`re about.
> But we have a guy here who took new frogs and put them into a new viv and we have a Dr, NOT a vet ranting on about quarantining frogs.
> THAT is what will make Sam feel bad more than anything as he`ll be thinking he`s done wrong.
> Many keepers put new frogs into new vivs which can be as good as any quarantine viv.
> ...


 Mike,
Dr Nick I don't think is a vet Mike,but he's a good frogger with to my layman's eye that similar wonderful scientific brain to a vet,so he understands this type of thing.Contianing pathogens bla bla
He has spent time explaining some of these scientific papers to me that just befuddle me,he's a good un Mike 
I can't speak for him but i think he wants the same thing as all of us for us all to be better and for our frogs to get the best we can do. 

Earlier this year he put his own hand in his own pocket and twisted another boffins arm so our hobby got a chance to test for chytrid and Rv.Ok a test that can have false positives and negatives,but something at an absolute bargain rate,. 
The guy is a real credit to our hobby. who often works behind the scene for all of us. My first contact with him was when he generously offered to sort me with some new feeders,privately and for nothing. he won't thank me for any of this ,but it is all true,he is a man we can all really trust,i'd stake my life on it.

I don't think he was critical of Sam,i think he wanted to help by giving the best thoughts he could as do we all. 
nice one on the azzies mate:2thumb:

Stu


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Stu the vet comment was sarcasm.
I`m surprised that Sam wasn`t told to reclaim the bodies from where ever they are to get fecals done.
The only Dr nick that I know of is in the Simpsons.
In his own words he posted a rant, and it was uncalled for.


Mike


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> he won't thank me for any of this


You got that right Stu!! Bloody hell... How am I going to dig myself out of this :blush: (cheque's in the post by the way...).

Look, Mike, it was a rant and it was probably not directly relevant to this thread and I apologise for that, but I think your reaction is a little unreasonable... 

You do seem to be very resistant to the merest suggestion of altering the ways in which we do things for the better and I don't see why that is? I don't know you and I've never been critical of you or your practices, so why obstruct others improving what they do? 

If you read what I actually posted, rather than your interpretation of what I posted, you will see that I was not having a go at Sam. I have every sympathy with him and what I was offering was advice - the fact is, if the frogs had not gone straight into a complex established viv they could have been monitored more easily, treated if necessary and if the same happened and they perished, it would have been a case of binning some spagnum and twigs and washing out a tub, rather than stripping down a whole viv and ideally binning most of the decor. If anything, I was trying to save Sam money...

If the frogs were healthy to start with, no harm done. That, I think, is sensible advice and I'm sure Sam took it that way. It's a reptile forum, not a support group. If Sam had wanted people to tell him everything's okay and bring him a hot milky drink he would have presumably posted on the Samaritans website rather than an amphibian advice board.... I'm sure he wants to make sure this doesn't happen again - that was the point of my post.

I'm certainly not the expert Stu makes me out to be, I'm not a vet and I'm not that guy off the Simpsons (although that is where the name came from :2thumb. I've not even been keeping darts (specifically) that long in the scheme of things (a few years), but there are common sense elements of husbandry that people could easily achieve at minimal cost/effort and I see no reason that they should be put off from these simply because some individuals haven't always done it that way.

Anyway, no point going a round in circles with this - enough from me. Best of luck to Sam with your new frogs and I am sure you will have no problems with Stu's stock.

Best,

Nick


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Sam,I'm gutted for you kiddo,i think Nick's/Richie's words to be wise i would ask that you watch the hell out of your other frogs as i'm scared for them, cross contamination via possibly contaminated plants,scares the living crap out of me.
> I'd also ask a tiny bit more in that you bin every thing in this viv and start over.You bleach the viv(or otherwise if Dr Nick can suggest better have a word with him,he has way more expertise than me on these things!!) and then you wash the hell out of it repeatedly and again and again.....and again and again until your beyond sure no trace what so ever could be left of a sterilising chemical to harm the new occupants .
> You pick your self up put this behind you
> 
> ...


a very very generous offer :notworthy: thanks allot! 

half the joy of forums is having such knowledgeable (and generous) people able to offer there own personal advice so others and myself dont make the same mistakes again.

I think I treated the care a bit to identical to my tinc cobalts who also hid allot over the first few weeks. Also had the same thing with the my hyloxalus azureiventris. 










when they first stopped coming out as often I did a brief search(just poking around) and found 1 leuc inside the log at the front so assumed I was right in thinking the others would be hiding in the caves at the back.

Im starting to think one of the caves could have somehow lead to the false bottom but again impossible to check now.It would help explain why they vanished slowly and what with the leucs colours id have noticed any bodies anywhere else in the viv. If the gorilla glue expanded in such a way as to move the weed fabric it would have only taken a very small gap as the frogs were so tiny.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Sam your welcome,clean out the viv start over,when the frogs i have, which are growing now are old enough i'll shout.

Sam i rear and Qt in a tub from tescos it costs around £3.it measures around 42x32x26cmhigh and has wham written (cut)into the lid edge. I micro wave the hell out of all subs to make sure they are sterile. I cut 2 vent holes around 6cm i think diagonally opposing into the sides and seal these with ff proof mesh both sides,ie inside and out with frog safe silicone.It is very very cheep and works really well,not ideal ,but just works. When i have finished using one i burn the contents wash it and start over. i'm telling you and everyone else this,because it is so easy and cheep and provides easy watching of new frogs,without any risk of loosing all the effort/money that goes into a viv. I have not perfected this for new tincs arriving here( ithink i know why ,but need to prove that to myself ),but i can rear tincs seriously well with this "tool"

i wack some coarse orchid bark in about an inch and a half thick as a drainage layer.on top of this i lay a layer of part rotted oak beech leaf litter on top of this whole leaves and a coco hut. i seed with DW woodlice and springtails,i can set this in hours and it works,i prefer to set it and leave for a few weeks.

Sam this not only works as a stop gap for when i suddenly get the chance of frogs i really want and have no viv,but also an informal Qt. one can add cheep plants like tradescantia if one so desires,on the prerequisite that these get burned aswell when the frogs go to viv. even if no fecals are done it just makes life easy to monitor say a new auratus,which might hide for weeks in a viv.
Sam you might be bang on with your thoughts about what happened here,but just watch the other guys for a while for me mate,just in case

As a footnote i have bloody pums breeding in one of these,becuase i got that chance of getting Shaz's dream frogs and after months and months of waiting,wasn't going to turn that chance down(she'd have killed me anyway).
I don't like the fact that a so called more difficult frog is breeding in a QT tub at all,but hand on heart i know this system works .

Stu


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## iwantacrestie (Feb 18, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> I will sort ya 4 leucs for nowt/nothing /nada They will be around 3/4 months old and you'll have to come and get them ,and you'll have to bring a poly box to carry em home.
> 
> Stu


Stu...... do you do this deal for eveyone? :no1::2thumb: hahaha


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