# Leaf litter for dart tank ???



## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

My 1st PDF tank is nearly finished need a few more plants and a couple of coconut hides in but want to put the above on top of the substrate I've heard oak leaves and roderdendrum leaves
1st do you pick them off tree/bush or off ground
2nd heard u put them in a bag then in the microwave for a couple of minutes
3rd I have a climbing fig tree in conservatory could I use leaves off that
I am putting springtails in at end of week then just let tank run for a while before I hopefully add bumblebee frogs
Will put pics up from start to finish when it's finished ready for your comments but please be easy on me lol


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

you can buy shed loads from dartfrog, magnolia and oak, also there's a women from thailand who sells aquarium graded catappa leaves

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/amy-lim/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

*Leaf litter*

Personally I would just opt for the oak and beech leaf andif you can get them magnolia is a good choice it really does not matter what leaves you use.There is enough money to be spent in this hobby without wasting it on imported material when good old home grown leaves are just as good .Remember the Indian almond leaf is an offshoot of the aquarium hobby and used to slowly drop the ph of the water to induce breeding of various fish species.This is not a consideration for dart frogs and leaf litter is used to give frog security and attempting to create a natural and visualy pleasing environment The only material to avoid are the pine range as they have toxic properties This is the best time to collect nice brown whole leaves take them home give a good wash and as I do boil them for about 15mins.and you have not only sterile leaves but a pot full of tadpole tea for use with your breeding program.Good collecting.
Terry


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

And some people arnt graced with bountiful glorious untouched forests of oak where the leafs swoon down into your lovely bag


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

Come on meatloaf I am sure that all of those English oak planted by Henry VIII are not all in my garden ! But if indeed that is the case I am quite prepared to share our Heritage.let me know where you are and I am prepared to send you some.And of course a few acorns to get you started


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## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

Anni and Meefloaf
Cheers for your help I will be out litter picking in morning in the sherwood forests of the northeast 


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## Fordyl2k (Nov 29, 2010)

Sorry to hi jack but im willing to take you up on that offer Anni 

cheers,

Ryan


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

toonboymc71 said:


> Anni and Meefloaf
> Cheers for your help I will be out litter picking in morning in the sherwood forests of the northeast
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just make sure that there is no Chytrid in your area when collecting your leaves or your frogs won`t last long enough to see them rot.


Mike


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

As I said in the previous post I give them a 15min. boil and have never had any problems.
Ryan give me your details and I'll sought something for you
Terry


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## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

anni said:


> As I said in the previous post I give them a 15min. boil and have never had any problems.
> 
> Ryan give me your details and I'll sought something for you
> 
> Terry



Do they go mushy when boiled anni cheers


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

i get nervous when collecting my own leaves tbh, the chytrid page hasnt been updated in a while. living a stones throw away from the new forest (and i could fart onto a little wood called "Lordswood" from my house) i just know i have seen newts, frogs and toads and i dont know what they are carrying.. 

leaves i have used include.

Amy&apos;s 100g Gr-C INDIAN ALMOND CATAPPA LEAVES -brackish, fresh water conditioner | eBay


Dried Guava Leaf Litter - A natural food for all Freshwater Shrimps | eBay

and 

a selection from dartfrog.co.uk

almond leaves are the best value, they are massive, last ages and seem great for the spring tails and woodlice. remember woodlice and shrimp are crustaceans so the benefits the almond leaves have on shrimp will be similar for woodlice :2thumb: 

if you are setting up a viv i would lay down a layer of "Deciduous Magnolia Leaves" from dart frog first then oak leaves then almond. the first layer of magnolia and oak break down really quickly into a nutritious mulch for the springs and isopods and then the almond will act as a nice leaf litter for the frogs to hide under/forage for food.


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## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

Cheers plasma234


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

No give it a try they are quite resilient.I boil mine for that time to extract the tannins for the tadpole tea as far as I am aware the chytrid pathogen is very susceptible to being destroyed by heat treatment and you could maybe get away with shorter treatment times but boil I would
Terry


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## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

Cheers anni


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

I am really not being antagonistic but could someone enlighten me as to why these almond leaves are preferred to oak and beech or even the introduced magnolia.There is no guarantee of its sterility and therefore that process should still be performed.The chytrid fungus (which is of virtually global occurrence)is not the only potential threat,there are many other viral,bacterial,protozoal and parasitic infections that can be transmitted on any non sterile plant material and imported plants should be treated with the same considerations as our own home grown leaves
Terry


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

If you do some research on the forums you`ll find that experienced frog keepers try to get leaves from areas free from Chytrid.
They also microwave the leaves to try and eliminate any dangerous bugs.
One that I know of uses nets to catch the leaves as they fall from the trees and thus saves them coming into contact with the ground.
Unfortunately there is always a risk and this is why some of us have trusted sources where we get our leaves from.
Anni, you prefer oak leaves, Calum prefers almond leaves.
Do we care ?
Nope, because we all have/use what works for us.
We should be more thankful that we have the choice.


Mike


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## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

Hello frogman955 if I pick up local oak leaves how long do you put in the microwave for cheers just looking for other options like boiling them for 15 mins as above


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## anni (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi.Mike the point I was making was that the impression given is that they are superior in some way wereas in reality they are just different .The British leaf if available to you is just as good and free .As for fungus free areas many populations of wild and even captive amphibs. are asymptomatic for the disease and carriers,not of course unique to amphibs ,and a falling leaf doesn't have to hit the forest floor to become infected that cute little tree frog may not be as lovely as it looks.
I know, this discussion could descend into the minutiae of leaf catching methods of a local people but still nice to see your inputs.
Terry


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Just a couple of comments; chytrid and other amphibian pathogens are only likely to be found near amphibian habitats- ie if you collect away from standing water they are unlikely to be an issue. Secondly, I noticed someone mention rhododendron leaves- these are toxic, so best not used. As mentioned, oak and almond are fine, as is hazel, beech, sweet chestnut, sycamore and many others- generally most deciduous fruit or nut. Oak has the particular virtue of being high in tannins, which slows down breakdown, but the others are fine if you don't mind topping them up more often. As I don't keep darts, I don't bother nuking or boiling my leaflitter, but as Stu has often pointed out, there is a fair risk of nemerteans amongst leaflitter- minute predatory worms that feed on springtails. As most of my frogs are far too big to eat springtails, and more than enough survive to do their custodian work, this isn't an issue for me, but if it is, a couple of minutes on 'high' in the microwave does the job.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

toonboymc71 said:


> Hello frogman955 if I pick up local oak leaves how long do you put in the microwave for cheers just looking for other options like boiling them for 15 mins as above
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ron has just answered the question for you.
HI RON, nice to see your still alive lol.

Anni, I and others buy our leaves from trusted people.
By that I mean that they have been collected from safe areas and properly treated to eliminate any potential risks.
Most of what we buy are in fact oak leaves.
The main problem is that Chytrid is slowly spreading so we all have to be on the alert.
As a rule of thumb it is recommended that we don`t where possible use anything picked up off the ground, but it`s not exactly feasible to play at Tarzan and go swinging about the branches collecting leaves.
As we don`t have native tree frogs there is less chance of Chytrid being up high off the ground, and it is unlikely that you`ll find newts etc up in the branches.
Someone earlier mentioned the new forest, well there is in fact Chytrid there so I`d stay well clear of that place for collecting leaves.


Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Guys,one leaf to properly avoid,laurel,it contains cyanide!!

One found here to add to the list of good possibles clematis armandii(the ever green one small white flowers in spring).

Toon what ya name dude?

I/WE use native sourced leaves,Ron's mentioned the base reason for a dart guy to sterilize,we do this by boiling the lot,I'm thorough on this now,say 15mins. If you pour off the water put the leaves in a net bag and hang on the washing line,they dry pretty quick,no they don't turn to mush.

Terry,you are spot on the teas from oak can be used,but our native Alder cone is superior for me anyway. Natural fungicide plus bacteriacide contained helps prevent mouth fungus in tads,the oak tea won't. Mate I experienced this early on,the alder has eradicated that 100%. Tel you'll note I'm actually advocating another free natural resourse. I'm all for these things,it's the same ethos really as using our native wood,oak in vivs. It's not just the fact that that it's free,which I like,or that it's fun sourcing. I see cool environmental reasons for not shipping wood and leaves around the planet if not really needed. I can't really see that bought products are superior either mate, one would have some hard job to convince me at this stage.But that's the cool thing about darts,we don't all use the same method,sommit for all here.

As far as risks,well they are ever present,caution where collecting illustrated by Ron helps,the boiling should nail chytrid as high enough temps in which frogs can live can halt its progress. I have no idea on RV,the one pathogen that could potentially get past,is possibly the Oocyst stage of coccidia. But here's the biggy for me,none of our collections are sterile,nor should they be in my view,but sure there are some nasties none of us ever want. We have organic set ups,that contain live plants live feeder inverts,ff potentially moving from one viv to another. Vivs sold here fully planted oft previously contained frogs,cuttings going from one viv to another,little to no sterilization used,when it is it isn't always prefect. I think one has to be a bit pragmatic about all this. I'm not saying folks shouldn't be cautious,but there seems little sense in worrying about a wild leaf,when one has just bought some plants from a nursery/vendor,to pop in viv. Hell I have worked in these places,how many times have I picked up a pot and a frog jumped out. To continue this sprays and pesticides would be another risk, I don't really think that perfect plant from holland is organic, I grow organic,it doesn't happen(not perfect anyway), so there are sprays pesticides there too. 

Mate I don't actually know how bought wood is sterilized,I think it is autoclaved,to alliviate the spread of anything,haven't a damn clue about capatta leaves,someone that keeps fish might know? 

Be cautious guys,but also see the big picture,many methods,no real right's or wrongs,sod spending me dosh on shipping stuff around the planet though,I'd rather those pennies went towards some new froggies:mf_dribble:


seeya

Stu


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## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

Cheers soundstounite great advice looks to me as if a trip around penshaw woods for some oak leaves then boiling and net bag is the simpler and cheaper way appreciated


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

toonboymc71 said:


> Cheers soundstounite great advice looks to me as if a trip around penshaw woods for some oak leaves then boiling and net bag is the simpler and cheaper way appreciated


Maybe it`s just me but isn`t the cheaper and easiest way to let someone else do all the work ?
Time and petrol to go somewhere collecting leaves and then the hassles and cost of boiling and microwaving them.
That against a fiver per bag of leaves ? I`ll pay the fiver thanks.


Mike


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## toonboymc71 (Dec 15, 2014)

frogman955 said:


> Maybe it`s just me but isn`t the cheaper and easiest way to let someone else do all the work ?
> Time and petrol to go somewhere collecting leaves and then the hassles and cost of boiling and microwaving them.
> That against a fiver per bag of leaves ? I`ll pay the fiver thanks.
> 
> ...



To be honest I can walk to the forest in 10 mins mate and I'm abit impatient waiting for deliveries so this seems ok but will let u know 
Cheers Michael 


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