# High street pet shop health risk



## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

*HIGH STREET PET SHOP **HEALTH RISK*
*Exotic pets - the new ‘Trojan horse’*

*The exotic pet trade has been identified as a disproportionate risk to human health in a new paper published in the Journal of Environmental Health Research. The paper, entitled ‘**A review of captive exotic animal-linked zoonoses**’ recommends that the Department of Health should develop a zoonotic disease (animal to human disease) response plan and that education efforts should be stepped up to warn people of the health risks associated with exotic pet-keeping.*

*The 16-page scientific paper* (http://www.cieh.org/jehr/default.aspx?id=41594 <http://www.cieh.org/jehr/default.aspx?id=41594> ) assessed human disease linked to zoos, petting zoos, circuses and exotic pet keeping, and concluded that all may present a potential risk to humans. However, exotic pet keeping was firmly singled out as the greatest risk to human health, not least because exotic pets can rapidly and widely contaminate the domestic environment and people are exposed 24/7 to the bugs they can carry.

*The article says:*

_“Poor understanding of risk factors throughout the trade and keeping chain, which sometimes continues into the healthcare and public health professions, sets exotic pet keeping apart as an important threat to public health.”_

*The article then concludes and recommends that:*

_“… local authorities may wish to consider modifying facility operators’ license conditions to include greatly restricting the numbers of animals and types of species that can be held or sold.”_

_“…environmental health services in consultation with the Department of Health and centres for disease control and prevention, should work …to develop a zoonotic disease response plan.”_

New ‘information sheets’ are included in the article, which the authors recommend are handed out by zoos, petting zoos, circuses and pet vendors so that the public can be better informed of the risks, and how to address them.

*Report authors say:*

_“The domestic environment is a poor place for wildlife. Many people are careful to avoid getting sick when in a foreign land, but bringing, for example, an exotic pet into the domestic environment may allow a Trojan horse of foreign bugs direct access to one’s home.” _
*Clifford Warwick, Medical Scientist*

_“The keeping of exotics demands the creation of artificial environments. These ‘simulated’ conditions, partially through the stress animals face and maladaptation syndrome, present novel environments that can lead to the flourishing of the vectors of animal-human linked disease. Put simply, exotic hosts with exotic needs can lead to exotic disease.”_
*Phillip Arena, Biologist*

_“We want to make clear this article is not about ‘demonising’ animals – exotic animals are not ‘unclean’. It‘s about protecting the public from a growing source of illness, and one that they can avoid if they are better informed. __I understand why schools and events sometimes encourage children to touch exotic animals such as snakes but this is potentially dangerous. ‘Now wash your hands please’ is simply not enough!”_
*Catrina Steedman, Biologist*

_“The proliferation of the trade in such a wide range of unusual species has worrisome implications for their welfare and human disease risk. There is a strong link to increased risk should the animals become stressed and ill, in these circumstances we know they shed higher levels of potentially devastating infections. The solution lies in responsible regulation, responsible trading and a lot of education.”_
*Mike Jessop, Veterinary Surgeon*


*To speak to the report authors, please contact:*

Clifford Warwick
Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 
Phone: (from UK) 07757267369
Phone (from outside UK) 0044 7757 267369
Website: http://www.emergentdisease.org

Or 

Mike Jessop
Email: [email protected]
Phone: (from UK) 07970422887
Phone (from outside UK) 0044 7970 422887
Website: http://www.ashvets.co.uk



*EMBARGOED UNTIL 00.01HRS ON WEDNESDAY 4 APRIL 2012*


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

Quote (the domestic environment is a poor place for wildlife) Clifford Warwick,for once l agree with Mr C.Warwick.
The problem is we are not now dealing with (wildlife)we are dealing with totally domesticated animals,so most of the alleged problems we are not now dealing with.
The main issues are hygienic,with people not washing their hands after contact with their pets.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

How do we define ‘wildlife’?


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## fishboy (Aug 7, 2007)

stevenrudge said:


> Quote (the domestic environment is a poor place for wildlife) Clifford Warwick,for once l agree with Mr C.Warwick.
> The problem is we are not now dealing with (wildlife)we are dealing with totally domesticated animals,so most of the alleged problems we are not now dealing with.
> The main issues are hygienic,with people not washing their hands after contact with their pets.


I'm sorry, what? The meaning of what you've written is completely lost in its structure.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

For those who are interested in a little more background on Clifford, not only is he a ‘biologist’ and ‘medical scientist’ [really!], he has also been trained by the SAS – is their no end to his talents’!!!!! 

There is a rumor that he is also a rocket scientist and part time brain surgeon, but I haven’t been able to confirm this as yet!

*Clifford Warwick*
http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/clifford-warwick/48/385/406

_For more than two decades Clifford’s fieldwork has included both conventional and high-risk investigations and studies into human use of animals, often in remote jungles and deserts. Clifford was one of the first and remains one of the few scientists to have SAS-personnel training in survival, infiltration, escape and evasion._


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

was he not a failed reptile importer ?


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## violentchopper (Jun 20, 2008)

Anyone bragging about SAS is a dick. Trust me. Only people who weren't in it, use it to look cool. Seen it done so many times.


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

penfold said:


> was he not a failed reptile importer ?


Not entirely accurate, he was in fact a very successful importer – he just didn’t have a clue once he imported them. His interested was in the money, he either didn’t have a clue how to look after them or he simply didn’t care. I purchased several animals from him; still have his prices lists somewhere.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

While they may have a point with regards to WC animals, did the report focus at all on CB? (I will read it at some point.... I have a rather long list of 'things I must read' though)


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## blood and guts (May 30, 2007)

was thinking it had been a while since cliffy did something anoying (well over then breathing). 
I dont find reptiles bad for my health at all but the high blood pressure, banging head aches and fits of rage i suffer ever time one of his numpty bridage raise there heads makes me feel its them who need a ban for our sanity!


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

It would be interesting to know what the incidence of health risks is with domesticated pets such as dogs and cats,I would bet that its far higher than exotics.


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## Dubia82 (Jan 19, 2012)

Chris Newman said:


> Not entirely accurate, he was in fact a very successful importer – he just didn’t have a clue once he imported them. His interested was in the money, he either didn’t have a clue how to look after them or he simply didn’t care. I purchased several animals from him; still have his prices lists somewhere.


So he's talking from his own inability to care for animals and be aware of health threats?

Whilst being aware of health threats from exotic pets, especially those wild caught, pets society commonly refer to as domestic are extremely good at presenting health risks.

Although it comes across to me like a scare tactic, it's just common sense what this guy has wrote and applies to any animal whether CB, WB or domesticated for centuries.... oh, humans too; and pretty much anything living or can interact with life (e.g. I would rather get a bite from a snake than a human).


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

colinm said:


> It would be interesting to know what the incidence of health risks is with domesticated pets such as dogs and cats,I would bet that its far higher than exotics.


Unarguable the biggest threat to human health is: contact with fellow humans. Therefore according to this “scientific study” we should ban all contact between people, prohibiting international travel, supported by a prohibition on tube trains, trains, buses, cars etc. Of course this also means a ban on business, work places, pubs and clubs, and let’s not forget hospitals – a hot bed of communicable diseases.

The reality is in terms of *zoonosis* domesticates species such as cats and dogs are a far grater significance, way, way down the list are reptiles, unless of course you are ill-informed, ignorant, or a raving lunatic – perhaps that answers the question in the first place!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Ah Mike Jessop my favourite vet.....


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

SiUK said:


> Ah Mike Jessop my favourite vet.....


Favourite vet! – his unbridle support for Mr Heathcoat and Mr Warwick would raise some significant questions over his actual agenda in my view, this is supported by my practical experience with Mr Jessop in that he appears not to supportive of the keeping, or trade in reptiles and amphibians! Would I use his services, categorically not.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Chris Newman said:


> Favourite vet! – his unbridle support for Mr Heathcoat and Mr Warwick would raise some significant questions over his actual agenda in my view, this is supported by my practical experience with Mr Jessop in that he appears not to supportive of the keeping, or trade in reptiles and amphibians! Would I use his services, categorically not.


Hi Chris

I was being sarcastic due to my personal dealings with him and the issuing of my DWAL which you are very familiar with


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

SiUK said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> I was being sarcastic due to my personal dealings with him and the issuing of my DWAL which you are very familiar with


That’s a relief, otherwise it would be akin to turkeys voting for Christmas!


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Quickly reading through the report it is coming across as very anti. There are a number of points that jump out at me.



> "2,121 hospital bed days associated with injuries *probably* from exotic pets"


I do not think the word probably has any place in a scientific article in this context.




> "280,000 of all cases or 14% of human salmonellosis, and branded as significant and major public health hazards – a finding that resulted in a ban on small turtle sales, and a 77% reduction in the disease in the following year"


 

The stats there do not make sense, does it mean that of the 14% cases related to reptiles then the following year it was 77% less reptile related cases?





> "A limited study of seven door handles at a major pet market in Germany in 2010 revealed two positive species of salmonella, S. ramatgan and S. subspecies V (PETA
> unpublished),"



This is the worst one of them all quoting PETA??


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## Stu MBM (Sep 2, 2011)

In that case we should ban cows and birds too. And anything that carries fleas. What a tit. Ass too, give me 5 minutes with him. See what kind education I can give him.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

SiUK said:


> Quickly reading through the report it is coming across as very anti. There are a number of points that jump out at me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most door handles carry a wide variety of bacteria from common strep to salmonella to various forms of bacillus (of which anthrax is one!). 

One of the more memorable experiments carried out at school was growing cultures taken from various places in the class room then playing 'indetify the bactrium'. 

Finding salmonella on a door handle is like finding salt in sea water. Hardly surprising. I dont think either of those strains cause salmonellaosis in humans either...


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

Yeah i am not a fan of anti's propoganda, also there seems to be no clear statistics of how reported cases of diseases have risen in the UK since the rise in exotic pet ownership which is a clearly a very important factor when making these bold statements and recomendations.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

SiUK said:


> Yeah i am not a fan of anti's propoganda, also there seems to be no clear statistics of how reported cases of diseases have risen in the UK since the rise in exotic pet ownership which is a clearly a very important factor when making these bold statements and recomendations.


Thats is one graph I bet will never appear in a report produced by anyone like this.... 

Also, % of salmonella would stay pretty constant with seasonal spikes as always. You are far more likely to catch it off eating poorly cooked eggs or meat then anything reptile related. 

(Unless you lick snake poo. But in that case you deserve whatever you get!)


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## ecoherp (Sep 22, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> Not entirely accurate, he was in fact a very successful importer – he just didn’t have a clue once he imported them. His interested was in the money, he either didn’t have a clue how to look after them or he simply didn’t care. I purchased several animals from him; still have his prices lists somewhere.


Chris, do you have concrete evidence of this? How do you know how successful he was? Also, what animals did your purchase from him? Please post his price list for all to see.

Thanks

Eco


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

ecoherp said:


> Chris, do you have concrete evidence of this? How do you know how successful he was? Also, what animals did your purchase from him? Please post his price list for all to see.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Eco


It’s always nice to welcome new members to the forum, as this is only second post – welcome and I hope that you find the forum interesting and helpful. 

With regards to Mr Warwick and his reptile dealing career, how successful was he I really couldn’t say, he wasn’t very successful at keeping animals alive that I do recall. In terms of posting his price list lets just say they are in a safe place and will be made available if necessary, it’s not appropriate for them to be posted here. Whilst it was a long time ago I am not the only person that remembers purchasing animals from him, so perhaps it should come as know surprise that he has never contested this issue, it has been brought up many times in the past. In terms of what animals did I purchase from him, started tortoises and radiated tortoises amongst others.


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## ecoherp (Sep 22, 2011)

Chris Newman said:


> It’s always nice to welcome new members to the forum, as this is only second post – welcome and I hope that you find the forum interesting and helpful.
> 
> With regards to Mr Warwick and his reptile dealing career, how successful was he I really couldn’t say, he wasn’t very successful at keeping animals alive that I do recall. In terms of posting his price list lets just say they are in a safe place and will be made available if necessary, it’s not appropriate for them to be posted here. Whilst it was a long time ago I am not the only person that remembers purchasing animals from him, so perhaps it should come as know surprise that he has never contested this issue, it has been brought up many times in the past. In terms of what animals did I purchase from him, started tortoises and radiated tortoises amongst others.


Thanks for the welcome Chris. Yes, I'm new to posting to the forums, but have certainly learnt quite a bit from reading other peoples' posts. As for Mr Warwick,I think this is a matter left to your capable hands. I was curious because I have a couple of books which he has contributed to (I think he co-edited the one on Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles) and these have been invaluable in understanding how complex it can be to keep reptiles in captivity. If it's the same Clifford Warwick, I would have thought that he'd be pretty experienced with keeping reptiles alive. 

Cheers and have a great weekend. 

Eco


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## penfold (Sep 9, 2007)

ecoherp said:


> Thanks for the welcome Chris. Yes, I'm new to posting to the forums, but have certainly learnt quite a bit from reading other peoples' posts. As for Mr Warwick,I think this is a matter left to your capable hands. I was curious because I have a couple of books which he has contributed to (I think he co-edited the one on Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles) and these have been invaluable in understanding how complex it can be to keep reptiles in captivity. If it's the same Clifford Warwick, I would have thought that he'd be pretty experienced with keeping reptiles alive.
> 
> Cheers and have a great weekend.
> 
> Eco


:lol2::lol2::2thumb:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

ecoherp said:


> Thanks for the welcome Chris. Yes, I'm new to posting to the forums, but have certainly learnt quite a bit from reading other peoples' posts. As for Mr Warwick,I think this is a matter left to your capable hands. I was curious because I have a couple of books which he has contributed to (I think he co-edited the one on Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles) and these have been invaluable in understanding how complex it can be to keep reptiles in captivity. If it's the same Clifford Warwick, I would have thought that he'd be pretty experienced with keeping reptiles alive.
> 
> Cheers and have a great weekend.
> 
> Eco


I think the publications you are referring too Clifford was merely a co-author that may account for the disparity, as a co-author you don’t have to know anything about the subject!


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## Serenity's_Fall (May 27, 2011)

I think I was cringing through the entirety of that article, it's not the worst written scientific journal article I've ever read, but it's pretty damn close. For a start, it's been published in a very low impact journal which means either they have tried and failed to get it in a better journal or they have realised that what they have churned out is bad science and have just targetted a not-so-good journal from the offset merely to get published.

In terms of the "science", it's a review paper and not a very good one at that, scientific reviews are supposed to portray ALL views/sides before the author then makes their conclusion, but here they are incredibly "anti" and have merely trailed through other peoples research papers picking ones which agree with the conclusions they want to make, which in my opinion is wrong and pure bad science.

They also keep using words like "probably" and all those tables they have thrown in showing all the pathogenic organisms which they are clearly implying are mainly coming from "exotic" pets, are for the majority of the organisms listed also found in liveswtock and "normal" domestic pets i.e. cats/dogs etc. They even state so in their own damn tables by listing "mammals" in most of the boxes but they choose to ignore this seemingly. And as for quoting PETA, well, no respectable scientist or vet that I know of would quote them and use it as "evidence"...

I'm sorry but the entire paper is from my point of view utterly biased and ridiculous. I mean one of the first things I was taught when I started uni a few years back was that in science, try and eliminate bias as much as possible. I'm at a point in my career now where I will soon (hopefully) be both co-authoring and writing my own journal articles and to see something like this being published, really irritates and disappoints me. If I churned out something like that, I have to say I would be thoroughly ashamed of myself. In my mind this has not been done for the science and merely to get the authors published.

Granted, exotic pets like reptiles, amphibians and exotic mammals will have _different_ pathogens than those which the average domestic dog or cat carries, and occasionally there _may_ be a certain pathogen which has the _potential_ to be zoonotic but in terms of risk, as long as people use common sense and strict hygiene when dealing with any animal, then in general I don't see exotics as any more of a risk than the average dog or cat. In fact people are probably more likely to catch something from their dog or cat due to sheer complacency, the amount of times I see people letting their dog lick them _in the mouth_ or not washing their hands after cleaning a cat litter tray is unreal. Obviously I'm not saying it's never going to happen, one day a zoonotic pathogen which originates from an exotic or reptile may well cause an "outbreak" of whatever disease, but equally, said outbreak could just as easily come from a human that's come back from holiday where they've been in contact with zoonotic pathogens in another country, or it could come from a domestic pet or livestock or it could originate from UK wildlife so claiming that exotics and reptiles are one of the biggest risk factors seems to me just completely mental.


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

Serenity's_Fall said:


> I think I was cringing through the entirety of that article, it's not the worst written scientific journal article I've ever read, but it's pretty damn close. For a start, it's been published in a very low impact journal which means either they have tried and failed to get it in a better journal or they have realised that what they have churned out is bad science and have just targetted a not-so-good journal from the offset merely to get published.
> 
> In terms of the "science", it's a review paper and not a very good one at that, scientific reviews are supposed to portray ALL views/sides before the author then makes their conclusion, but here they are incredibly "anti" and have merely trailed through other peoples research papers picking ones which agree with the conclusions they want to make, which in my opinion is wrong and pure bad science.
> 
> ...


Maybe, "Ecoherp" is stuck in Echoes of a past life?
No doubt, the SAS training, stopped short of credible science. Jungle exploits being more akin to "George in the Jungle",than I'm a celebrity, get me out of here.:whistling2:


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Serenity's_Fall said:


> I think I was cringing through the entirety of that article, it's not the worst written scientific journal article I've ever read, but it's pretty damn close. For a start, it's been published in a very low impact journal which means either they have tried and failed to get it in a better journal or they have realised that what they have churned out is bad science and have just targetted a not-so-good journal from the offset merely to get published.
> 
> In terms of the "science", it's a review paper and not a very good one at that, scientific reviews are supposed to portray ALL views/sides before the author then makes their conclusion, but here they are incredibly "anti" and have merely trailed through other peoples research papers picking ones which agree with the conclusions they want to make, which in my opinion is wrong and pure bad science.
> 
> ...


I expect you are perfectly correct that more scientific journals would not accept such a subjective paper, however, I suspect it was published in this journal for a more cynical objective. Warwick and his crones, certainly Steedman and Arena have co-published many alleged “scientific papers” over the years with Professor Warwick. Indeed they have published in this journal previously on related issues. 

Now here is the rub and why I think this journal has been used for this publication, and indeed the entrance stage left of their Knight in Shining Armor,Mr Mike Jessop, as a qualified vet and former president of the British Small Animal Veterinary Association is this an endeavour to bring some kind of credibility to the publication? 

Without going into to much detail under the Animal Welfare Act we should have had new legislation on Pet Vending, this has been shelved as a result we are stuck with the Pet Animals Act to govern sale of pets from pet shops which is now 60 years old! This Act is underpinned by the Model Standards, which was last reviewed in 1998. So in 2010 a Working Group was formed to modernise the Model Standards, I was asked to write the section on reptiles and amphibians which I did in consultation with many other keepers and experts. 

Over eighteen months were spent on this document, countless meeting and consolations to get the documents into shape, then at the last meeting it was torpedoed by Jessop, Warwick and Co – very frustrating. I shouldn’t have been quite so surprised by Jessop’s involvement in this as at roughly the same time this document was sunk Jessop had tried to have some ludicrous [not to mention unlawful] conditions attached to a pet shop licence in Wales. When this was scheduled to proceed to Court who has going to be called as the ‘expert’ for the Local Authority – surprise, surprise, Clifford Warwick. Sadly the LA backed down and omitted the stupid conditions that Mike Jessop had insisted they add.

So where is all this going and where does it leave us? Well the journal in which this alleged scientific paper has been published is the journal for Environmental Health Officers. Who does the majority of pet shop licensing – surprise, surprise, Environmental Health Officers! Is this a cynical attempt to try and get draconian measures attached as conditions to pet shop licenses, you may well think that I couldn’t possibly comment?


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

Chris Newman said:


> I expect you are perfectly correct that more scientific journals would not accept such a subjective paper, however, I suspect it was published in this journal for a more cynical objective. Warwick and his crones, certainly Steedman and Arena have co-published many alleged “scientific papers” over the years with Professor Warwick. Indeed they have published in this journal previously on related issues.
> 
> Now here is the rub and why I think this journal has been used for this publication, and indeed the entrance stage left of their Knight in Shining Armor,Mr Mike Jessop, as a qualified vet and former president of the British Small Animal Veterinary Association is this an endeavour to bring some kind of credibility to the publication?
> 
> ...


Interesting agenda!
Having read the article and the critique to date, it strikes me that the authors : victory:use the word "probably" a great deal in their assertions. One is minded of that great series of Adverts by Carlsberg: "Carlsberg don't do Zoonoses, but if they did, they would "probably" be the best Zoonoses in the world?:whistling2:


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## Turner89 (Dec 28, 2011)

I’ve just found this, looks like the antis are singing from the same hymn book!!

_ 

__http://eurogroupforanimals.org/publications/report-on-health-risks-from-new-companion-animals_


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## Geomyda (Aug 11, 2008)

Turner89 said:


> I’ve just found this, looks like the antis are singing from the same hymn book!!
> 
> _
> 
> __http://eurogroupforanimals.org/publications/report-on-health-risks-from-new-companion-animals_


Thanks for posting!


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## Chris Newman (Apr 23, 2007)

Yes I am aware of this document, good old Eurogroup for Animals, use to be called Eurogroup for Animal Welfare, but dropped reference to “welfare”. I can put the entire document into the public domain, but here is a part of the report I prepared on them:-


*Eurogroup for Animals*​


*EUARK Briefing document*​

*Introduction*

Background information has been prepared on the organisation *Eurogroup for Animals*, which was formerly known as *Eurogroup for Animal Welfare*, but dropped the reference to ‘welfare’ around 2007. Eurogroup for Animals is a highly political organisation based in Brussels that is fundamentally opposed to our interests in terms of keeping or trade in what are commonly referred to as exotic animals. It is extremely active in engaging with politicians and advising them on animal welfare matters and provides the secretariat for the *Intergroup on Animal Welfare and Conservation *based inStrasbourg.

A primary objective of *EUARK* must be to similarly engage with politicians in order to provide a balance and decision makers within domestic boarders or within the EU Commission must have access to counter arguments. Animal Rights Organisations have long recognised that influencing decision makers at an early stage is a highly successful strategy and we most adopt a similar methodology. 

_Information in this document is cut and pasted from the Eurogroup for Animals website and is, therefore, in the public domain. I have added my comments in italics where appropriate. _

*Background and history for Eurogroup for animals, from Wikipedia *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurogroup_for_Animals

*Eurogroup for Animals* is an organisation based in Brussels which seeks to improve the treatment of animals throughout the European Union and represents animal welfare organisations in almost all the European member states. Since it was launched in 1980, the organisation has succeeded in encouraging the European Union to adopt higher legal standards of animal protection.

It provides advice and expertise on animal welfare to various European institutions, such as the European Commission, the Council of Ministers, and the European Parliament. It also provides the secretariat of the European Parliamentary Intergroup on the Welfare and Conservation of Animals, which meets at the European Parliament in Strasbourg once a month.

Eurogroup for Animals also works closely together with retailers to encourage them to adopt higher standards of animal welfare. In addition they campaign to improve the situation of farm animals, research animals, and wild animals. In 2008, the group led a campaign to prevent cloning for food being approved in the European Union.

*British animal welfare organisation RSPCA took the initiative to set up Eurogroup for Animals after noticing more and more legislation relating to animals was being decided at a European level.* Thus in 1980 Eurogroup for Animals was launched becoming the first coalition of animal welfare groups in Europe. It is also one of the longest established non-governmental organisations in Brussels. Over the years Eurogroup for Animals has grown to represent animal welfare organisations in nearly all countries of the European Union.


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