# Pet frog for handling?



## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi there, 
I keep pretty much everything from inverts to tree snakes, but my son now has a passion for frogs .... and needless to say I might need to oblige. 
I have cared for frogs in the past (poison darts, whites and cane toads), but dont really know enough to narrow down my search for the ideal frog/toad for my family. 
Can you guys please help?

I was leaning towards a fire belly toad, as they are fun to watch, diurnal, pretty easy to care for etc. But they are toxicish. 

I know one should actually never handle any amphibians, but the fact is my son will want to take it out occasionally and hold it in his hand. 
So if we are to get a frog I want to find one that is hardy enough to cope with being handled a few times a week. (until my son gets bored and I have the next 10 years of care to deal with... much like the geckos, beardie, fish etc....)

Ideally I am looking for an amphib that can fit into a small viv or fish tank.
Something diurnal that is quite active. 
Can be handled gently without having a heart attack - or giving me one.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers!
Peta


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

I really don't think handling as regularly as a few times a week is a good idea I'm afraid to say, the frog will be stressed to the max and really won't enjoy it. How old is your son? The fact that you've said he gets bored of them after not long doesn't fill me with confidence, it sounds as if he sees something, wants it, gets it and then finds something else that's more interesting. Please don't think I'm being mean, I just don't think it's very fair on the animal.
Sorry I can't be much help, I just thought I'd put my views across.


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

As Manda has already pointed out and you know yourself amphibians are not really a hands on pet, but saying that i think its great that your young son wants an amphibian, if you were to get one your proberbly better off with a toad one of the bufo family, bufo viridis or similar is an ideal choice theyre tough as old boots and will take a bit of gentle handling. Always make sure he washes his hands before and after handling the toad, before to get some of the salts off his hands and after to get the toads toxin off, you really dont want him putting his fingers in his mouth or rubbing his eyes. Proberbly better to get some of those surgical gloves if possible.


cheers
Richie


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi there and thanks for the help so far!
Well, ideally none of my "pets' are good for handling and so we very rarely touch them, but I have to be realistic and expect that for the first few weeks any animal will be taken out of its cage more than is appropriate. This goes for rabbits, hamsters etc.

I grew up in a nature reserve in Africa and so I had hands on experience all my young life with pretty much any animal you can think of, so I want a little bit of that for him.
I think if he learns from a young age to handle things very gently and to read the signs of stress in an animal then it is worth the effort I have in looking after the animal when he tires of it. 
But for that reason I want an animal that will be robust enough to cope with those first few weeks of inspection. 

I know I am starting him early, as he is only 4! But I started keeping and catching wild snakes when I was 8 and I think it is probably better to learn when you are young as it is an instinctive, curious time for a child. 

He is obsessed with african bullfrogs, but I have first hand experience with them and know that they can be unfriendly to say the least. Or at least in the wild they are. 

Thanks again! I will look into the toads you mentioned and let you guys know if we do get one. (but I have to do a lot of reading first.)
For now we have a frog pond outside and cant wait to see if toads and frogs move into the area to enjoy it. 

And yes, he is a very spoilt child- but mostly with nature, adventures and learning, which I think is an ok way to spoil a kid.


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

I have just googled bufo viridis, richie, thank you. Sounds ideal!
Now I guess I had better get back to work....


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Aconite said:


> Hi there and thanks for the help so far!
> Well, ideally none of my "pets' are good for handling and so we very rarely touch them, but I have to be realistic and expect that for the first few weeks any animal will be taken out of its cage more than is appropriate. This goes for rabbits, hamsters etc.
> 
> *I grew up in a nature reserve in Africa and so I had hands on experience all my young life with pretty much any animal you can think of, so I want a little bit of that for him*.
> ...


 
That's awesome! I think another frog that is more tolerant to handle is a whites tree frog, I don't handle mine a lot but one of them in particular is as good as gold when I do get her out, she literally just sits on my hand, and will probably sit there quite happily for as long as I want her to, maybe you could look into getting a pair of adults? I say a pair cos I think it's nicer for more sociable animals to have friends! 
I'm also going to suggest a corn snake, I know they're obviously not amphibians but they're excellent to handle, they're a bit quick when they're young but sub-adults are fantastic, my first snake Diego is like a soppy puppy, I could tie him in a knot if I wanted to and he wouldn't care. Obviously each animal is different, but if you find one that is calm then they make excellent pets, and they're very easy to keep.


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi thanks Manda,
I was wondering about a whites, as I handled one once and they are very relaxed. 
I remember just keeping my hands wet, so that my skin didnt bother it too much if I needed to hold it. A zoo I used to help at used them a lot for handing shows. But I am not keen on that at all. 

Ja, I had no idea how lucky I was as a child till I was an adult and it was too late! My parents were ecologists/botanist etc, so I am damn lucky!
Have just spent a month in South Africa with my son where we were able to go across the road each day and catch reed frogs in the river. I also caught some lovely agamas and geckos. (all released back into the wild a few minutes later.)
Oh and my son would wake up each morning and feed the mongoose family that lives in the back garden. 

So jealous making... if it were not for the one morning when we walked to the beach only to find it covered with armed poachers trying to steal the almost extinct abalone shells. And my mom being held for 4 hours at knifepoint in her home last year. 
So even paradise has its downside. But it gives us South Africans a very robust sense of humour that is for sure.


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

I always just give my hands a good scrub with hot water before and after handling any of my frogs, if I had to handle them regularly then I'd probably get myself some of those non-powdered rubber gloves.
Sounds like you had a lovely time in SA  That's awful about the poachers and your mum though, my ex's family live in Johannesburg and their house has been broken into numerous times, so they've now got some ridiculous security system and fences and all sorts, but I still can't imagine that'll keep people out if they want to get in.
I would love to go on holiday to SA though one day, and go to a national reserve like Kruger Park, I've been on safari once when I went to Kenya a couple of years ago and now I want to go again!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Am I the only one here who feels that the results of a 4 year old handling any amphibian is going to be one seriously squashed and dead amphibian? Sorry, but I have seen children that age kill hamsters before now. Hamster makes a break for freedom, child squeezes hard to stop it....

4 Years old is too young to trust a child to handle smaller animals, at that age they even manage to make cats and dogs uncomfortable, and can be quite cruel.

Oh and before you ask, yes I am a parent, I have 4 daughters, and at 4 years old NONE of them could be trusted to safely handle small animals, and I have yet to see anybody else with a 4 year old that can. At 4 years old I set up a shrimp tank for one of my daughters, far safer, even then she killed a lot of them by dipping her toys into the tank. 4 years olds just aren't safe with small animals.

Regards


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Oh, I totally agree with you! I guess it sounds strange saying it is for him. 
It is more for him to look at and if he is with me I might place the frog in his hand, then take it off his flat hand when he has stared at it enough. 

He has managed to cope with this method with our leopard geckos and he is learning that you simply cant handle most animals. In a way it is good, as it teaches him not to mess with nature, in contrast to so many kids that think animals are for fun. 
He is never allowed near any of the animals without me, and all cages are locked. 
I guess I learned from a young age that animals are very rarely pets and that it has to be mutual respect, mostly on the side of the human. 
I think I feel that kids, esp in this country (where very few wild animals bite back badly), need to have the experience of animals, but that the experience should be about learning how dangerous we are to them, not the other way round. 
If you know what I mean? 
But yes, 4 is a very squashy age and so discipline and control has to be very strict. 

We gave him a giant millipede when he was 2 and it is still going strong. As are the stick insects and mantids. So it can be done, but you have to be very, very careful. 
But who knows, I would hate to be proven wrong. A hurt animal is not something I ever want to deal with. I will only proceed with caution. 
Thanks!


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Whites treefrogs often very tollerent at being handled and I would opt for one of these foe sure. Very easy to keep, good size and settle well. Could dona lot worse!


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Whites are very pretty and chilled, but they just sit around looking pretty all day at the top of the cage- dont they?
I think a bouncy, swimmy cheeky toad might be a bit more fun in the long run? 

I have a green tree python that has been doings its pretty thing for the last 12 years. So pretty is good, but I think a boy might need something with a bit more bounce.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

I would avoid fire bellied toads if they are to be handled. They are just to mental and wont sit still. When I have to move mine for cleaning I tend to just grab and drop in a tub rather than hold them. 

Something bigger like whites seem to be the best thing.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Anything that's Bouncy isn't going to be good for holding. Maybe have a rethink about what your wanting and what your wanting it for.


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Am I the only one here who feels that the results of a 4 year old handling any amphibian is going to be one seriously squashed and dead amphibian? Sorry, but I have seen children that age kill hamsters before now. Hamster makes a break for freedom, child squeezes hard to stop it....
> 
> 4 Years old is too young to trust a child to handle smaller animals, at that age they even manage to make cats and dogs uncomfortable, and can be quite cruel.
> 
> ...


Yes, children can be cruel but they can also be very well behaved. My niece who is going to be three, is so good with all the animals. With the snakes, I will hold them and she will hold her hands out just to have it run over the top of them and will also ever so lightly stroke it, This is all because we have always had animal with her and she has always been interested in them. She is so calm and delicate with them.

In fact she was out in the garden with our french lop on Sunday and was hugging him again very lightly saying "I love you sooo much" so yes if brought up and taught from a young age and monitored, then young kids can be very good with animals.

I think it is great to get kids to involved at a young age as far to many kids grow up not to respect them and also with the impression that certain animals are bad etc etc...


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Yes, children can be cruel but they can also be very well behaved. My niece who is going to be three, is so good with all the animals. With the snakes, I will hold them and she will hold her hands out just to have it run over the top of them and will also ever so lightly stroke it, This is all because we have always had animal with her and she has always been interested in them. She is so calm and delicate with them.
> 
> In fact she was out in the garden with our french lop on Sunday and was hugging him again very lightly saying "I love you sooo much" so yes if brought up and taught from a young age and monitored, then young kids can be very good with animals.
> 
> I think it is great to get kids to involved at a young age as far to many kids grow up not to respect them and also with the impression that certain animals are bad etc etc...


She's just the cutest thing in the world :flrt: I definitely want my kids to be involved with the animals and stuff, but they wouldn't be allowed to hold them unsupervised until they reached a certain age, and all the vivs and things would be locked all the time in case the kids ever decided they wanted to show off their snakes in front of their friends or whatever.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Matt, once you have some REAL experience with children, do feel free to join in a discussion about them. You've seen you're niece cuddle a rabbit, woohoo, obvious proof that 4 year olds can be trusted with animals.

Oh, and I do indeed believe that children should be exposed to animals from a young age, to learn to respect them and not just see them as cuddly toys. What I don't agree with though is buying them frogs, lizards etc. By all means get them for yourself, and allow them some contact with them though, I do the same myself. I think you have things spot on there Manda.

It's funny how folks who would normally outright insist that phibs are NOT to be handled suddenly get all fluffy when a child is mentioned. The truth remains, phibs aren't for handling, and certainly not weekly or more.

Regards


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Matt, once you have some REAL experience with children, do feel free to join in a discussion about them. You've seen you're niece cuddle a rabbit, woohoo, obvious proof that 4 year olds can be trusted with animals.
> 
> Oh, and I do indeed believe that children should be exposed to animals from a young age, to learn to respect them and not just see them as cuddly toys. What I don't agree with though is buying them frogs, lizards etc. By all means get them for yourself, and allow them some contact with them though, I do the same myself. I think you have things spot on there Manda.
> 
> ...


I lived with my niece for 2 years so saw her grow up with these animals and she would hold the corn with our help with no problems.

I haven't said that frogs were good for handling but was just stating that young kids CAN be good with animals. 

No rules telling me what discussions I can and can't join in on i'm afraid.

No need to be so rude and learn some manners asx you have told us previously, thanks:2thumb:


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Ben aged 3.










He even likes penguins....but not crickets! 
Hissing Cockroaches are ok. Lol.


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Great pics, just goes to show that there are kids out there that understand how to be careful, contrary to popular belief :whistling2:
You can see how careful he's being with them, notice how in the first picture he's not gripping the snake tightly with his fingers, but letting the snake move freely through his hands


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

manda88 said:


> Great pics, just goes to show that there are kids out there that understand how to be careful, popular to contrary belief :whistling2:
> You can see how careful he's being with them, notice how in the first picture he's not gripping the snake tightly with his fingers, but letting the snake move freely through his hands


Hes handling this one great, its a 3 and a half yr salmon male. And the brb is a 10 year old female. He's always supervised with the majority of the animals. He can be trusted with the dog and digger the skunk. He always asks if he can hold a snake which is usually once a week. He likes to hold the sand boa, it's floppy and easy to handle on his own safely. He likes the boas but not often has the chance to hold like this. If he sees me with one out he asked to touch and usually strokes or helps support a few. He has a millipede tank in his room and although locked, he will ask to spray them and I give him the sprayer and he closes up when he's finished power washing them...( It's a fine sprayer...only joking!) . He won't hold them without me but he does have a mooch under the logs to see if he can find any babies.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Matt, once you have some REAL experience with children, do feel free to join in a discussion about them. You've seen you're niece cuddle a rabbit, woohoo, obvious proof that 4 year olds can be trusted with animals.
> 
> Oh, and I do indeed believe that children should be exposed to animals from a young age, to learn to respect them and not just see them as cuddly toys. What I don't agree with though is buying them frogs, lizards etc. By all means get them for yourself, and allow them some contact with them though, I do the same myself. I think you have things spot on there Manda.
> 
> ...


You really really have some issues with Matt and Manda dont you... 

How do you know he doesnt have "real" experience. You don't know much about what he does day to day. Maybe he doesnt have his own children but how do you know he hasnt grown up with children or always had children around. 

Anyway back to subject. 

I think the OP has said he will be sensible with it and I am sure most people on here some times do hold their frogs. I get my horned frog out a few times a week to check on him e.t.c which involves being held for a few minutes. 

I am sure you wont allow your kid to poke and prod it and generally abuse the poor thing. People have said its not advisable to hold them often but these things happen


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

'Phibs aren't for handling. Simples.

Very interesting how an argument brings out cliques isn't it


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi, thanks for all the response.

I do agree that amphibs are slightly different to most other exotics, as handling them is not only about stressing them out, but also the fact that our skin can also harm them. 
So it is sort of why I started this thread, as I wanted input into what is the safest for the animal involved. 

I might not even get him a frog, but out of a house full of exotics it is all he has actually ever shown an interest in. And I know that when I was very little I was obsessed with snakes and it took me years to convince my folks to let me have one. And then I think they only got it for me as they assumed it would help the phase wear off. And that was when I was 9. My Mom still calls my love of snakes a phase- and I am 37!

An old work mate of mine had hundreds of dart frogs and when we cleaned them out we would just pop them in our wet hands and not once did they show any stress about it. 
I have egg eating snakes which couldnt hurt a fly, but my son has never been allowed to touch them, as they are too quick and he would tense around them and that would be it for the snake. So I assume the same would apply for the frog for the next few years. 
But we will see. For now it is just fun learning a bit more about the various kinds and telling him the options. 

So thanks so much for the input!


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

detail3r said:


> 'Phibs aren't for handling. Simples.
> 
> Very interesting how an argument brings out cliques isn't it


Yes it is!!!:whistling2:


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

matt_mcmahon77 said:


> Yes it is!!!:whistling2:


Don't be an arse now


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

It wouldn't be RFUK if it didn't have these constant squabbles


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Aconite said:


> Hi, thanks for all the response.
> 
> I do agree that amphibs are slightly different to most other exotics, as handling them is not only about stressing them out, but also the fact that our skin can also harm them.
> So it is sort of why I started this thread, as I wanted input into what is the safest for the animal involved.
> ...


Get him something that will be more comfortable being handled then. A few times a week handling sessions for a 'phib is unneccesary imo and could elevate stress levels.

Any adult asks this its frowned upon, factor a small child into the equation and it's suddenly ok.

Oh and IBTL!!!


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Aconite said:


> It wouldn't be RFUK if it didn't have these constant squabbles


Too right.

At least the phib section isn't anywhere near as bad as the shelled section - shelled warriors is a very apt term it seems:lol2:


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

detail3r said:


> 'Phibs aren't for handling. Simples.
> 
> Very interesting how an argument brings out cliques isn't it


:lol2: cliques?! Rhian actually knows what she's talking about, she knows us unlike Ade, he just assumes he knows what he's on about, when actually he has no idea. For all he knows, we could have kids or Matt could work with kids! His comment was completely uncalled for, I genuinely have no idea why he's even bothered saying it.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

So what you're saying is that Amphibians are ideal for a young child and ideal for handling?

Ok.


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

No, dont IBTL! 
But yes, you are right, bring in a kid and education and green issues and it all goes a bit topsy turvy.

What will probably happen is I will get something I want and he has to live by the rule that it is see, but dont touch. But he can feed it, do the water change etc. 
As learning that animals are not toys is in reality always the best way to go. 

Thanks,
Peta


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

Aconite said:


> No, dont IBTL!
> But yes, you are right, bring in a kid and education and green issues and it all goes a bit topsy turvy.
> 
> What will probably happen is I will get something I want and he has to live by the rule that it is see, but dont touch. But he can feed it, do the water change etc.
> ...


:2thumb:


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

detail3r said:


> Don't be an arse now


Same applies mate, just saying, by you saying that you are joining in the "cliques". As I know you get on well with wolfenrook. He just didnt like the fact that some people wont always agree with him and he finds that hard to understand.



detail3r said:


> Get him something that will be more comfortable being handled then. A few times a week handling sessions for a 'phib is unneccesary imo and could elevate stress levels.
> 
> Any adult asks this its frowned upon, factor a small child into the equation and it's suddenly ok.
> 
> Oh and IBTL!!!


I never said handling frogs was OK, what I said was that small children can and do handle animals/reptiles of all sizes and types without killing them. This is what Ade was saying that children shouldn't be allowed to do and also, he doesn't know me in the slightest as if he did then he would know that I was living with my niece for 2.5 years and still see her regularly. He doesn't have a clue how much time I spend around children. He needs to talk to people how he wishes to be spoken to.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

I guess i'm biased - I dislike all children immensely.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

I hold one of my whites every so often. She sits still and I always wear powder free vinyl gloves. She doesn't get bothered by it at all you can tell by the way she sits and that her heart rate doesnt increase. I only do it for short periods so i can have a closer look at her really. The other whites aren't as chilled and will try to climb up your arm or jump which isn't safe as they could hurt themselves from a fall or land onto something that could be bad for their skin so its just not even worth bothering taking them out as its too risky. All the other frogs hate it as their hearts start racing which obviously means they are scared/stressed so better to leave them be and interact with them by tong feeding!


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## miss_ferret (Feb 4, 2010)

occasional handleing of a phib is fine, i have to handle mine when i clean them out (but then i dont have anything hugely sensitive), but in all honesty i dont feel regular handleing is fair on the phib. there not cuddly creatures and should be made to adapt to it.

i think its great that your introducing your son to animal keeping at a young age, i was brought up with all sorts of animals and, other than owning a small zoo of my own now, it hasnt done me any harm :lol2: but children also need to learn that some animals are just for looking at : victory:


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Do whites do anything? I have a green tree python which is stunning and as docile as a lamb, but I also have a red tailed green rat snake that never stops moving, is fast and feisty. 
And I think I love the rat snake more, as he is just as beautiful, but is always on the move. 
So if you know what I mean, if I do get a frog, or toad (not so keen on newts) then it needs to be a species that does stuff. 
I dont want something that spends all day sleeping and hiding on a branch. 
Which is why I liked the fire bellies initially. 

I think my son would be happier with not handling a phib if it is fun to watch. 
I dont think a young child will be too excited by something called a frog, that never hops or swims.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Aconite said:


> Do whites do anything? I have a green tree python which is stunning and as docile as a lamb, but I also have a red tailed green rat snake that never stops moving, is fast and feisty.
> And I think I love the rat snake more, as he is just as beautiful, but is always on the move.
> So if you know what I mean, if I do get a frog, or toad (not so keen on newts) then it needs to be a species that does stuff.
> I dont want something that spends all day sleeping and hiding on a branch.
> ...


Tree frogs don't move during the day, but are very entertaining when the lights go down. For this reason and the fact they should not be handled unless essential I don't think they make good pets for children, they would get bored very quickly IMO.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

i had bufo viridis toads and they did nothing but hide under their rock hide 24/7 unless there was food they were very very skittish too. My whites are alot more active and put on a show on a nightly basis!


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aconite, I think you are approaching this in a very mature and sensible manner, I am glad you haven't jumped to the advice given by the fluffy brigade in this.

Matt, Manda, I treated you very politely and pleasantly, until I got fed up of your know it all arguing. You claim to be experts with phibs, even ignoring me when I pointed out that fantastica were considered only suitable for advanced keepers, oh look, 2 dead fantastica later you're still claiming to be experts. Then you start arguing with me about children. Sorry but 2.5 years living WITH your niece is nothing. My oldest is 12, and I HAVE worked with children, as has my wife. I'm an ex nurse and my wife worked in a play group many years ago. I also have contact with a LOT of parents, not just 1 or 2, many of who HAVE tried letting their youngs ones handle small fast moving animals with disaterous consequences. The exact ones that I already described, child holds animal, animal tries to run, child stops animal, splat. I never said don't expose children to animals, I actually said don't let them handle small fast moving ones. One of my daughters is just coming on 8, and has a hamster, she NEVER directly handles this, it's placed in a rub where she can interact with it safely and with supervision.

As to your argument that I don't know you, and don't know what experience you have had with children, actually Matt already gave the example that he'd watched his niece handling a rabbit, which is enough evidence that your experience is pretty limited. That and the fact that you are arguing that 4 years olds can safely be allowed to handle small fast moving animals.... Experience tends to show, and so does lack of experience.

Oh and yes, I do have a problem with Matt and Manda, one they brought on themselves, and continue to reinforce with their posts.

Aconite, sorry about taking your thread off topic. Seems to me that you have the advice you wanted now, and that I have given you all the advice I can on this subject, so I am just going to stay off it now.

Oh and re White's, young ones tend to bomb around plenty, but in my experience as they get older their activity tends to be at night, bombing around their vivs like mad things, and they have a VERY loud call that not everybody can get used to.

Fun to watch, well so long as you aren't planning any handling, I don't think you can go far wrong with fire bellied toads really. Plenty of folks on here keeping these who can discuss them with you if you decide to go this route.

Cheers


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Thanks! Loud noise at night! I can handle that, but my husband went nuts when a "noiseless' cricket escaped and made a home for itself under the radiator. 
I think the fact that they chirp at night is enough to know this little creature will not work for my family!

I think a fire bellied toad might be best. But I have to give it some time now to sink in, as my son will have to earn it. Which thrills me to bits! He might even tidy his bedroom. 

And as for handling. I guess when I say handling I mean it very loosely, as even our big beardie is never held by my son. 
But my son was taught caution of animals at a very young age, when he pissed off the cat at 3:30am (as 2 yr olds tend to do) and got a sharp thwack on the nose. My son still happily chats away while I hold my gtp when I am cleaning out his cage- but he wont go up the stairs when the cat is on them. I keep telling him traditionally pythons are more feared than kitties, but he knows fluffy doesn't automatically mean friendly.


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## manda88 (Nov 27, 2009)

Good lord :lol2: I couldn't care less whether you think we have limited experience with children, it doesn't even matter what experience we have anyway, our knowledge has nothing to do with how the op's son behaves.
When have we EVER claimed that we're experts? Whenever we reply to threads, we talk about our experiences with our animals and how we've dealt with them. Please find me an example of where we think we're experts, im dying to know! As for my fantastica, you telling me theyre an advanced species is like a retard telling me I'm stupid, I'm not going to listen to you because you have hardly any more experience than me or Matt, you just like to think youre the be all and end all of dart keeping for some unknown reason. I'm sure if spanner had thought we werent experienced enough to keep them, he certainly wouldnt have sold them to me in the first place. As for their deaths, I've spoke to several ACTUAL amphibious experts and they're all baffled as to how they died, so you can shove your little opinions where the sun don't shine. You must be a very sad old man to feel as though you have to attack two 20something year olds about how experienced they are with keeping frogs, I suggest you get a life. I really don't know why you have such a problem with us, cos as far as I'm concerned all we do is share our experiences with others to try and help out on different situations, whereas all you do is start petty arguments.


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## Jazzy B Bunny (Jun 21, 2007)

Its not just rough handling though, phibs have sensitive skin too and can absorb nasties on hands. I don't actually know anyone who handles fbt's on a regular basis and if you do I think gloves would be a good idea.


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Aconite, I think you are approaching this in a very mature and sensible manner, I am glad you haven't jumped to the advice given by the fluffy brigade in this.
> 
> Matt, Manda, I treated you very politely and pleasantly, until I got fed up of your know it all arguing. You claim to be experts with phibs, even ignoring me when I pointed out that fantastica were considered only suitable for advanced keepers, oh look, 2 dead fantastica later you're still claiming to be experts. Then you start arguing with me about children. Sorry but 2.5 years living WITH your niece is nothing. My oldest is 12, and I HAVE worked with children, as has my wife. I'm an ex nurse and my wife worked in a play group many years ago. I also have contact with a LOT of parents, not just 1 or 2, many of who HAVE tried letting their youngs ones handle small fast moving animals with disaterous consequences. The exact ones that I already described, child holds animal, animal tries to run, child stops animal, splat. I never said don't expose children to animals, I actually said don't let them handle small fast moving ones. One of my daughters is just coming on 8, and has a hamster, she NEVER directly handles this, it's placed in a rub where she can interact with it safely and with supervision.
> 
> ...


POLITELY and PLEASENTLY, not once you have always been the same a rude, know it all, im better than everyone, anything i say is always correct. 

As for the Fantastica, we are not sure why they have died, there set up everything we have is set up perfectly for them so there must be something that has caused it. We have spoken to the original breeder and people on here who are also very baffled, so you can take that comment back. There was no need to bring them up anyway as its not nice losing any animal so trying to say "i told you so" is a real ares of a thing to do, and I think you need to think about that. 

Yeah handling a rabbit, and a snake which you fail to mention among many other animals that we have there. Obviously again you know far more about children as well, of course you do. I have actually had a lot of experience with young children as used to help in a playgroup. You dont know me or my lifestyle in the slightest so stop making guesses as you are making yourself look like a complete idiot. So because I mentioned my neice handling a rabbit that makes my experience limited, how did you work that out?

I really do think that you think you know it all and everything you do is correct and everybody else is wrong. I know for a fact that you have had many run in's with people on here and people on other forums because of the way you speak to people, maybe you should think why?

I would never say im an expert, hence why I go to many people on here when I need some help. deffinetly wouldn't take any advice from you as I think what you say is just based on what you think, and by the way you come across on here I wouldn't want to take any advice from a little man who has been keeping phibs for a similar amount of time as myself and is just an arrogant little sod.

I still want to know what problem you have with me and manda, as the very first comment I said was just that young kids can handle animals, didnt mention amphibians did I? but again you make assumptions and make a tit of yourself.

Obviously you feel superior because you are older so of course you are an expert at everything and know far more than us. To be honest I am very much looking forward to meeting you at phib day and see if you are just as cocky there. I dont normally judge people before I actually meet them as people are very different behind a computer screen but you are just an ARSE.

That is all:whistling2:: victory:


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## richie.b (Oct 27, 2008)

When someone comes on here and asks whats the best frog for my 4 year old to play with ill tell them a cuddly toy, when some one comes on with a responsible attitude ill give them my opinion. Now ive got 22 years experience with children because thats how old my eldest is. I was brought up from a very young age with all sorts of wildlife including handling amphibians before i could walk, and so were my children. If you leave a 4 year old unsupervised with any animal then youre asking for trouble. But i dont think this is what Aconite meant which is why i gave that reply, i also said a bufo would be best because theyre a bit more forgiving that most amphibs including whites, with tougher skin etc.
Now if this makes me part of the fluffy brigade then so be it i still stand by the advice i gave from my own experience.

cheers
Richie


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

Get an adult retic.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

If you want to know anything about having FBTs as pets let me know. Im not an expert (before anyone moans at me for that) but I will try to help with my few years experience.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

I let my children play with my frogs all the time.

In fact, they're locked inside the White's viv right now having the time of their lives.


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> I let my children play with my frogs all the time.
> 
> In fact, they're locked inside the White's viv right now having the time of their lives.


I hope that viv has a stat.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

_jake_ said:


> I hope that viv has a stat.


It doesn't. Thanks for reminding me though. Forgot to let them out.


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## detail3r (Jul 13, 2010)

I think everyone seems to have a valid point, but some people are more passionate than others which can lead to threads such as this getting out of hand.

Lets all take a chill pill:flrt:



matt_mcmahon77 said:


> To be honest I am very much looking forward to meeting you at phib day and see if you are just as cocky there.


Oh dear. No need tbh.


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

sounds like the organizers of frog day might want to consider getting some security on, what with all this squabbling going on, or a ring put up,:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

cheers spencer.............


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)

Sadly Ive lost frogs over the years. There's lots of reasons frogs can die, here's some:

1)stress
2)to dry
3)too wet
4)not enough food
5)too big a food item
6)dirty water
7)dirt sticking to them
8)pressure from other habitat mates
9)too hot
10) too cold

Why not look at a crested gecko instead of a frog? Just an idea. 
I use White lipped and whites in school. I get the kids to make a fist with their hand. Spray the back of the fist and place treefrog on it. Then do the same with the next person. I can do a class easy without stressing my frog and it never jumping at all! no one is allowed to touch it. Its only out for 5 minutes at a time. I have a pair of each so nonover handling happens.


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## matt_mcmahon77 (Dec 3, 2009)

detail3r said:


> Oh dear. No need tbh.


It wasn't a threat of violence just to clear that up, in fact, wasn't a threat at all it was just me saying that some people are very different behind a screen. In fact, if this convo had gone on face to face I imagine it would have just been a normal convo but because of the screens, it is very easy just to type away and it come across totally different to how it was meant to.


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## BenjaminBoaz (Jan 6, 2006)




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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

animalstorey said:


> image


nice frog you have there, they are on my wish list for later on this summer: victory:

cheers spencer..........


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

I agree with Ritchie folks, as I said last night he's always the voice of reason on this forum. Yes there are some very delicate amphibians, but Bufo toads are generally very tough indeed!. B.asper is definitely one species I wouldn't recommend handling off the top of my head, but old school viridis, marinus, regularis etc - They're not made of cotton wool! It goes without saying to make sure your hands are clean and free from soap/detergent residues etc, but contrary to popular belief the warmth of your hand will not burn a species such as viridis that basks in gravelly substrates well over 115F on a sunny day - Think about it . 

Cheers
Al


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## berksmike (Jan 2, 2008)

Completely agree with Alex. Accusations and argument achieve nothing and certainly dont help the OP get an answer. They also dont help to encourage people new to amphibians to come on here and ask questions.

We all lose animals from time to time, even the most experienced keepers and so to start using this as an argument to dismiss another members views is really not on. I think even you lost a couple of tincs a few months back Ade and nobody implied that this was down to your husbandry.

I have found this section generally a lot less argumentative and militant than others and other forums and hopefully it can stay that way.


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## Alex M (May 28, 2008)

berksmike said:


> Completely agree with Alex. Accusations and argument achieve nothing and certainly dont help the OP get an answer. They also dont help to encourage people new to amphibians to come on here and ask questions.
> 
> We all lose animals from time to time, even the most experienced keepers and so to start using this as an argument to dismiss another members views is really not on. I think even you lost a couple of tincs a few months back Ade and nobody implied that this was down to your husbandry.
> 
> I have found this section generally a lot less argumentative and militant than others and other forums and hopefully it can stay that way.


 
And totally agreed back at you Mike me old mucker! (Hope you well btw?). Was going to comment on that side of things, but your post sums up everything nicely. No matter how long our experiences may be with amphibians, you can be rest assured of one thing - We ALL lose some from time to time, harsh reality - 'where there's livestock there is deadstock'. 'Manda and Matt, whom in my humble opinion certainly do not behave like 'experts' (no such thing anyway with 'phibs), just share what they've learned thus far as we all do, but certainly shouldn't be knocked for losing those Ranitomeya - A public bashing should only be reserved for those whom are blatantly cruel to their charges, and that's not something that could be levelled at M&M. Anyway, c'mon folks, lets try and keep this section as level headed as it normally is - More fun to be friendly, is it not?. 

Cheers
Al


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

This was posted on April Fools Day.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

colinm said:


> This was posted on April Fools Day.


so?? Is every post posted yesterday meant to be taken as a joke?


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

FallenAngel said:


> so?? Is every post posted yesterday meant to be taken as a joke?


Seems a strange request to me.I dont get the handling reptiles and amphibians bit to be honest.If you want to handle animals buy a dog or cat.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

colinm said:


> Seems a strange request to me.I dont get the handling reptiles and amphibians bit to be honest.If you want to handle animals buy a dog or cat.


I handle all of my reptiles and I am sure that most people do as well.


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

colinm said:


> Seems a strange request to me.I dont get the handling reptiles and amphibians bit to be honest.If you want to handle animals buy a dog or cat.


If it's possible and causes no harm to yourself and second the animal then it should be encorouged. :2thumb:

Though handling a Tokay I may let you off with:whistling2:


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I only handle mine when necessary,I certainly dont get them out to play with.Then again I dont name mine as I see that its a pretty pointless exercise to name something that doesn`t respond to its name :whistling2:


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't handle anything bar my snake, and only once a week. Regular enough so he's comfortable with me and not so much that he gets stressed being disturbed and picked up all the time.


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## Morgan Freeman (Jan 14, 2009)

colinm said:


> Seems a strange request to me.I dont get the handling reptiles and amphibians bit to be honest.If you want to handle animals buy a dog or cat.


Helps them to learn not to fear you.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I don't handle anything bar my snake, and only once a week. Regular enough so he's comfortable with me and not so much that he gets stressed being disturbed and picked up all the time.


Really? Only once a week. I handle my snake at least once a day.


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## andaroo (Nov 14, 2008)

ipreferaflan said:


> Really? Only once a week. I handle my snake at least once a day.


:lol2:hahahahaha


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## furryjen (Sep 22, 2010)

ipreferaflan said:


> Really? Only once a week. I handle my snake at least once a day.


I bet you do Harv :gasp: :lol2::lol2:


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## spencerburgo (Dec 1, 2010)

:lol2::lol2:


furryjen said:


> I bet you do Harv :gasp: :lol2::lol2:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## TIMOTHY AND MATILDA (Oct 31, 2008)

:lol2::lol2: oh heck


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

TIMOTHY AND MATILDA said:


> :lol2::lol2: oh heck


LOL:lol2:


BTW, can we stop the bitching, people? Wolfie has useful knowledge to share, so do Mattanda, so do lots of us. We don't always agree, but we can give our opinions wiithout getting personal and nasty.


Rant over.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

And anyway, I was responsible for my first animals at six. I came from an animal-friendly (ok, mostly dog-friendly) family, but there was an assumption that if I wanted these pets, i had to look after them. And I did.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> LOL:lol2:
> 
> 
> BTW, can we stop the bitching, people? Wolfie has useful knowledge to share, so do Mattanda, so do lots of us. We don't always agree, but we can give our opinions wiithout getting personal and nasty.
> ...


 Agreed totally,to few of us to fight with each other,without differing opinions differing ways of doing things how are we all going to learn,30yrs ago i started in this phib thing,look a bloody big lay off now back wanting to learn,and learn we need to.... from each other,as well as books net any other source,tis so important that we pool our knowledge,little as it may be,this is about our phibs not us,and they bloody need us!!
Yeah i am a softy,always makes me sad when we are fighting,life is simply too short.
SHAME
Stu


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## bug guy22 (Jan 7, 2011)

i agree on fire belly toads. i have 2 youngsters. growing fast! yes, they hate being handled but they are great too watch. they r actually frogs: victory:


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## Aconite (Dec 4, 2008)

Thanks! I am still pondering. We have tadpoles in the garden pond and so hopefully that will do the trick for now. Then after summer, if he is still obsessed we can evaluate. 
I also think a fire bely or something like that might be the best. As they do seem a lot more active and interesting during the day.
Thanks! Will keep you posted!


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