# Improving and Supporting the Reptile Hobby



## Carlie (Sep 27, 2006)

It's all very well having a rant about our current laws concerning reptiles, animal welfare organisations, pet shop conditions, breeders standards, etc. etc., but what can we realistically do about it that will make a real difference? 

There seems to be a charitable organisation for just about every other group of animals here - RSPCA tends to deal with dogs, cats and fluffies, the ILPH specialises in equines, the RSPB specialises in birds, there are wildlife charities, etc. But there is nobody to represent and protect reptiles that are recognised and trusted enough to take over where the RSPCA fall short. Somebody who will visit these awful pet shops and have the authority to kick them in to touch. Specialists who actually know a thing or two about the species they are dealing with. A central resource that people will turn to for advice (RFUK is great, but not everybody reads forums or has the internet :lol. 

We need somebody who will speak out on behalf of our more exotic pets, better monitor the pet trade, imports, breeders, as well as taking care of rescues and rehoming. More importantly, we need an organisation who is respected enough to be able to advise the authorities and influence laws and regulations. 

There are a lot of very young reptile keepers here, a generation that might be able to get in to positions of responsibility in the future and make the required changes to our laws and local government. Nothing is set in stone. I also imagine that there are a lot of exotic keepers who are in very influential positions who may be able to help. 

So how about it? What could we do in the future that would make a difference? Has anybody got any ideas to inspire or issues you think needs to be addressed?

Aside from making a super RSPR (royal society for the protection of reptiles :lol, are there any other approaches we can take? For instance, how can we affectively influence local councils to make better decisions about who they hand out pet shop licences to and how they regulate them from then on?

Looking forward to hearing opinions on this. : victory:


----------



## Carlie (Sep 27, 2006)

And just as an after thought, I didn't mean to undermine the work of organisations such as the Tortoise Trust and similar, and even the good work that some of our smaller rescue centres.

But how wonderful would it be if the Tortoise Trust or similar had some authority in their specialised area?

I'm the first to admit that I actually know very little about the organisations and charities out there, but perhaps that's an issue in itself - few people outside of the hobby actually know who to turn to when in need of help and advice regarding these specialised areas and that includes the authorities. 

I'd be interested to hear from such organisations and gain their perspective on the matter, as of course they will have first hand on the difficulties experienced with legislation, laws, authorities, etc.


----------



## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

I agree loads NEEDS to be done but I suspect people in the hobby are mostly happy with the way things are. I really think a register of all breeders breeding herp species/morph/type should be in place.


----------



## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

I think it all comes down to time and money.

The RSPCA deal with conventional pets and have done for the past 200 years and is also one of the largest charities in the UK. With the growing trend in keeping exotics as pets it is obvious to us the keepers that, either the RSPCA need to get on board rather than turning a blind eye, or that another organisation is set up. Attempting to create an organisation than oversaw the entire reptile keeping industry/hobby across the UK, from scratch would be a mammoth task. Unless someone with a real passion for this and the time and money to dedicate too it i dont think it'll happen.

I think the RSPCA need fresh blood, and as the OP suggested the young audience of this forum are key candidates for this. If people become part of the RSPCA and work their way up through the ranks till they wield some power then that is when we may see a change.

Gaboon - I aqree that most people would say their happy, but thats because by nature we're a lazy and complacent species. We dont want extra paperwork/licenses/work to allow us too keep reptiles/exotics even though i do think its needed. We may have domesticated animals but its a symbiosis rather than an ownership. 
The register you propose is good but some people breed by accident or change their mind halfway through the season etc, the reptile community is so flippant at times that the register would no doubt be a total mess.


----------



## vikki3683 (May 16, 2008)

UM - I Kmow this might be a bit off track - i do agree with what is being said - 100% agree.
What im saying is - in september i start a degree in animal science and management - which will be specifically in reptiles. with that qualification I want to and will do all that i can to improve and support the reptile/exotic hobby. 
sorry i hijacked your thread Carlie


----------



## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

very intersting, and i agree whole heartly. However, setting up any organisation from scratch like that will be an extremely expensive task. 

I'll have more to say later, i just wanted it awknowledge that i had read the thread.


----------



## Sid.lola (Jan 10, 2008)

We could form the NSPCE

New Society for the Protection of Captive Exotics


----------



## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

It all comes down to money at the end of the day. The RSPCA have power because they have money. Smaller charities with no money have little to no authority or power. It's politics and politics is money.

I just can't see people in the hobby having the political clout, or the cash, to start up an organisation that could make a difference. 

It's a great idea, but for me - the magnitutude of the task makes it almost impossible to even conceive where or how to begin. If anyone did step up to the task I'd be willing to support them of course, but like most other people in the hobby - that support wouldn't be financial, there's not that much money in this hobby.

In the meantime I will carry on trying to make my local difference in small ways, encourage education and promote positive images of a reptile shop, as that's the best I can currently do.


----------



## Carlie (Sep 27, 2006)

Thanks for reading and for your replies everybody. 

I do appreciate that it would be an almost impossible task to set up an organisation from scratch. Could there be a possibility of a specialist unit within the RSPCA in the future? Or perhaps there is already a smaller organisation out there that might grow if supported?

No problem, Vikki - I'm pleased to hear that there are people studying this subject and that perhaps in the future there will be lots more professionals that are able to influence the hobby. 

Once again, I'm sure this subject is far from new and I hope this doesn't sound like I'm undermining the hard work and effort that the current set of experts put in to changing the hobby for the better. I'd like to hear from these people, if there are any present. :notworthy:

Keep the replies coming, everybody! Really interested to hear what people have to say on the matter.


----------



## Carlie (Sep 27, 2006)

Athravan said:


> It all comes down to money at the end of the day. The RSPCA have power because they have money. Smaller charities with no money have little to no authority or power. It's politics and politics is money.
> 
> I just can't see people in the hobby having the political clout, or the cash, to start up an organisation that could make a difference.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply, Athravan. 

This is what I kinda figured, which is why I mentioned the difference younger people could make. If the road to improvement is a political one, perhaps this is something some of our younger reptile keepers could get involved in? 

I've always found that there are an amazing collection of people on forums like this. People with very interesting day jobs... 

I bet there are a lot of Civil Servants here. :lol:


----------



## Zak (Jan 7, 2008)

vikki3683 said:


> What im saying is - in september i start a degree in animal science and management - which will be specifically in reptiles. with that qualification I want to and will do all that i can to improve and support the reptile/exotic hobby.
> sorry i hijacked your thread Carlie


Just out of interest where are you doing this course and to what level?


----------



## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

Every organisation has to start somewhere the RSPB was started by a few women.

So if enough of us decided to start a non-profit organisation,surely the potentials there to make a difference? I mean theres enough exotics in the country to warrant a large organisation to support them.


----------



## vikki3683 (May 16, 2008)

sandmatt said:


> Every organisation has to start somewhere the RSPB was started by a few women.
> 
> So if enough of us decided to start a non-profit organisation,surely the potentials there to make a difference? I mean theres enough exotics in the country to warrant a large organisation to support them.


Id be interested in helping start one up. how would we do it though?


----------



## vikki3683 (May 16, 2008)

Zak said:


> Just out of interest where are you doing this course and to what level?


Its based at Walford college - 
*Foundation Degree in Animal Science/ Management *


The course consists of sixteen taught modules. You may choose from a selection of modules to follow either an Animal Management or Equine Management option. This is subject to availability. Modules include:


Principles of Land-Based Business
Investigative Project
Biological Principles
Animal Husbandry
Animal Health and Welfare
Animal Nutrition
Environmental Management
Industry Experience
Small Business Enterprise
Anatomy and Physiology
Animal Behaviour
Biotechnology and Genetics
Animal Law and Ethics
Animal Industry and Trade
Management of Animal Collections
Animal Nursing
Applied Animal Health
Exotics
Animal and Human Interactions.


----------



## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

vikki3683 said:


> Id be interested in helping start one up. how would we do it though?


 
Basically enough people would have to join a 'group' give it a name and raise awareness through campaigns etc. as a starting point. and slowly build up, doesnt matter how small it starts off as, but if you do enough good work it'll get noticed.


----------



## vikki3683 (May 16, 2008)

sandmatt said:


> Basically enough people would have to join a 'group' give it a name and raise awareness through campaigns etc. as a starting point. and slowly build up, doesnt matter how small it starts off as, but if you do enough good work it'll get noticed.



Lets do it then. Im in


----------



## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

You'd probably need someone people would listen to as well , as we're all, lets face it minors in the reptile/exotics community..

But if it can be done, let it be done! I'd be up for it


----------



## vikki3683 (May 16, 2008)

lets get this up and running then - i might be able to get some of the lecturers at the college to help out


----------



## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

If you got a plan, go with it


----------



## vikki3683 (May 16, 2008)

i think we are going to need quite a few ideas and suggestions - and also back up from some members and breeders etc on here - then we can put a plan together and go from there


----------



## sandmatt (Oct 25, 2008)

Maybe start a new thread, try get people interested?


----------



## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I applaud your good intentions but I have been here before.

In the early 1990s some of us realised that animal rights were targeting our hobby and we set up the Federation of British Herpetologists to fight them as a political lobby group.

It took years to convince people that the hobby was under threat amid a huge amount of infighting accusations of all sorts of things. Personal vendettas. I won't go into detail as I don't want to raise ghosts.

We got a memorandum of understanding with the RSPCA via Tim Wass, we provide "experts" to work along side the RSPCA, to train their Inspectors in reptile care and even to give evidence in court in cruelty cases.

We would take all rescued animals and find them suitable homes, all this by the way being at our cost,despite the millions of pounds at the RSPCAs has at their disposal.

When it came time to put this into action, the animal rightists on the board of trustees voted it down and refused to give us any reason why.

cheers arthur


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Yes. I was at that FBH Conference Arthur. 

Tim Wass actually gave a good account of himself other than not knowing what the RSPCA had actually published with regard to the keeping of reptiles and other exotics ( like the "fact" that it is impossible to keep them alive for longer than a year.)

At the end of the day, the RSPCA inspectorate are good and well meaning people with very little knowledge or training with reptiles other than the blanket "They are very expensive and difficult animals to keep with specialist care requirements." which although not totally untrue as every animal has specialist care requirements is designed to put people off keeping them.

The RSPCA ruling council however are not interested in working with hobbyiests in the slightest and this will presumably remain the case until we become to big to walk over.


----------



## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Ratboy,you're right the RSPCA will never work alongside us as long as the board of trustees follows their AR agenda.
Yep, our old friend Clifford ***********, better not mention his name or he might begin suing everyone in sight again, ha ha ha.

Are people more politicly aware in the hobby nowdays? They seem to be. On this site anyway. I tend to only post and read this forum so am not as aware as I used to be on the politics of reptile keeping.

At some point this year I'm intending to make my move to Italy, where there doesn't seem to as many ARs. Now our local commune has a wi fi I can get on the net and not be as cut off as I have been for the last couple of years.
Altho Berliscone has banned the keeping of Tarantulas, because he's frightened of them.
Mind you, I wish he'd ban those dammed sheep ticks. I got one on my backside last year and had to knock next door and ask for help to get it off, most embarrassing moment of my life. Of course the door was answered by next doors wife and I had to explain in very very poor Italian that I had a tick on my bum and could they help, ha ha. Anyway I ramble.

cheers arthur.


----------



## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

That would have been one for UTUBE Arthur ... hahahaha brilliant 

I think people are more aware, they are certainly more aware of the RSPCA but I think the country is more aware of them too, or rather more aware of their political shortcomings. They were on the TV a couple of nights ago about fund raising in Scotland.

On here, I think the awareness is due in no small part to Rory. Although not that many people responded to many of his threads, they certainly got the viewings and many of the points raised have had considerable mention elsewhere on the forum since.


----------



## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Oh, it got worse Ratboy because my neighbour didn't know quite what to do and called in the rest of the village for a debate as to how to get it off, burning it off with a lit cigarette was one idea, ouch.

Yes Rory is doing a good job and I wish him lots of luck. I expect he's finding like we did that lack of money is very limiting on what you can achieve when you're up against groups like Animal Aid and the RSPCA.They can throw around vast sums for so called scientific reports.

8 million people puts us on the same level as dog keepers, if every one pulled together that would make us a very powerful voice indeed.
cheers arthur.


----------



## Carlie (Sep 27, 2006)

So sorry I haven't been back to this thread sooner. Had to root around to find it!

Really interesting replies - thanks so much for your input. 

I'd like to keep this topic going to perhaps raise awareness and let other people know about what has been tried before and how things turned out. 

It's certainly been an eye-opener for me and a fascinating topic.


----------

