# Quick Mbuna question



## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi all!

Just a couple of quick questions.

Would the following 3 species be compatible with each other:

Labidochromis Caereleus
pseudotropheus acei
Cynotilapia afra(Cobue, jalo reef etc...)

And would they be suitable in a 165L tank? With the stocking 1M 3-4F for each species giving a total of 12-15 fish.

Ta!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

the first two should be fine together in a proper setup but i don't believe the last one will get along with the others... but i'm not 100%... having never had an afra...


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

I am planning on putting them in this.

Its 165L, approx 32" L x 20"W x 28" H


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

I've kept them all together just fine, the Afra are the most aggressive so you want to make sure you have the proper m/f ratios for them. You may also want to re think Acei as a choice as these can get a good 6-7 inch and too big for your tank, even yellow labs are pushing it to be honest. You would be better off sticking to smaller Mbuna.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Is there anything with similar colouring as the acei that are smaller?

The problem im having is finding dwarf mbuna that are compatible with each other, that are colourful and that have nice looking females also.

Would really like a specie's that has barred/striped males and females.


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

Maingano would be option, beautiful males and females, stay small and have nice Horizontal barring which is something different. Also have a similar aggression to your Afra's.
Saulosi are another gorgeous fish, they have yellow females and blue barred males and again stay small. Same as Rusty cichlid's they aren't as obviously stunning and I've never had them myself but are apparently a lot better looking in the flesh. 
Pseudotropheus demasoni is another which would fit into your tank, but would probably have to be a species only tank due to how aggressive they are.

Personally I would go with a group of 
6 Afra (whichever sub species you fancied)
6 Saulosi (gives you blue barred and yellow fish)
6 Rusty''s (Males give a lovely purple sheen similar to Acei's)


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

I really have my heart set on Labidochromis Caereleus so the Saulosi wouldn't go well with with them would they due to them both being yellow?

However i do think the saulosi is a beatiful species so i am not going to rule it out and may replace the yellow labs.

Those maingano's are stunning!! Im going to replace the acei with that.

Not a fan of the rusty's though.

In my head i have two possible stocking ideas...

Option 1:
Labidochromis Caereleus
Maingano
Afra (Cobue)

Option 2:
Saulosi
Maingano
Afra (cobue)

Would these work or am i still way off the ball?


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

2nd option is better than the first. Just the more I think about it really yellow labs are probably going to be too big for your tank. I know there is a lot of variations on size for them but its not uncommon to have some rather large 6-7 inch ones. 

Saulosi/Maingano and Afra are probably 3 of the smallest Mbuna so they would be good. I've only had Afra "white top hara" sub species, but after googling the Cobue I would think they will work fine, really you just want to avoid anything that looks like the Saulosi males, as I'm pretty sure some types of Afra do have similar appearance.

With regards to your tank, I'm sure your aware that your size isn't ideal for Mbuna since the majority of its water volume comes from the height which is sort of wasted on Mbuna. I would advise you maybe get some more ocean rock (pretty sure I can see some in your tank already) and build it up as high as possible on your back wall to try and utilise some of that wasted height. Ocean rock is usually easily stackable and won't pose a risk of toppling over.


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## nazia (Oct 22, 2013)

Thank you for putting up a all pictures shearing.​


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

real estate and nooks and crannies is what it's all about... lots of caves and crowd them in... frequent water changes...


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

My plan is to build the ocean rock all the way up the back, stopping just before the surface, thus giving them plenty of cover and different territories.

It will be a fairly thin layer so it doesn't displace to much water, yet complex enough to create tunnels, caves etc...

I believe as long as the chosen fish are compatible and enough 'decor' is present then surely the 165L would suffice?
I know that overstocking will reduce aggression, therefore 1M 3F of 3 different species (12 total) will be classed as overstocked in a 165?

I mean, my tank is only just short of being 3 foot long... isnt that the recommended minimum for dwarfs?
Im not a novice fish keeper (although cichlids are a new venture), so i guess i just want to know if it is possible for a more experienced keeper?


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

Yes building the Ocean rock up will help, wouldn't worry to much about water displacement.
You have sort of answered your own question, 3 ft is the recommended minimum tank size and yours isn't 3 ft which is why I would stick with only the smallest species. 
From my experience of keeping Mbuna the vast majority of aggression is to other members of the same species. This could have been down to correct stocking and making sure rival males don't look a like, which is what you would get with Option 2. 
If your buying adult sexed fish then 1/3 would be perfect for your tank (remember to add them in all at the same time), if your buying fry then maybe 6/7 of each species would be better then you can move them on if you get too many males etc.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Okie doke,

I was thinking of purchasing 1M 3F of each species, as juveniles.

When you say add them all at once, i assume you mean just that specific species and not all 3 species at once? My bioload would go through the roof :lol2:

As a general rule, i will add the least aggressive species first and the most aggressive last.

Out of curiosity, how quickly do Mbuna grow?
I could potentially move them onto a 240L but that wont be until next year some time.


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

Have you not got a established filter running somewhere you can steal media off? It is better to add them all together. You might be ok adding 4 at a time, but with Mbuna its better to add them all together. I learned through experience, added a few fish into the tank and they got a lot of unwanted attention. The whole tank pretty much turned into piranha's chasing these few new fish around lol. Had to take them out in after a day when it wasn't easing up and the new fish were stuck in the corner wedged behind a rock. From then on I only added big groups at a time. 

Also you will probably not be able to buy sexed fish as juveniles, take the Saulosi for example, they all start off bright yellow, then the males will turn blue barred at maturity, this is the same for a lot of Mbuna. Maingano will also be impossible to sex small.

As for growth rate, like anything it depends on quality of food, quantity of water changes and the species themselves. Then you have to take into account they aren't going to be all uniform size anyway's. If I remember correctly I believe I got yellow lab fry to full size in about 1 year to 18 months.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

I have an established filter but its only good for 750lph, do you think that is high enough turn over rate for cichlids in my tank?

Im unsure what to do with unwanted males if i purchase them unsexed though, my LFS doesnt really like taking any back!

just a thought, i could perhaps only go for 2 species of 1M 4F (10 fish total), do you think that would reduce aggression and more suitable for my tank, or does another species (bumping upto 12 total at 1M 3F) not make much of a difference?


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

I think it always a lot easier having larger groups, but I wouldn't say it will make a huge difference. What type of filter is the established one? and what is the one you have for this tank?


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Its an Aqua one 750, its currently on this tank at the moment. Just wasn't sure if its okay for the cichlids as i know they need a fairly high turn over rate.


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

Yea you might struggle with just that one, I ran a 2000lph and a 1400lph on my 400 litre tank. So what fish do you have in there at the moment if its already mature?


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

x2 Bolivian Ram's
x1 Bristlenose
x1 Apisto
x2 Dwarf Honey Gourami's
x6 Rummynose Tetra's
x4 Kuhli Loaches
x1 Aquatic Frog
x4 Panda Cories

With the current filter it easily keeps Ammonia @ 0ppm, Nitrite @0ppm and Nitrate @ 20ppm with 10% water changes every 1-2 weeks.


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

Are you trading those fish in or? Remember with no fish in the tank the bacteria will start to die off very quick. I think with 10 fish you will probably be ok for now, especially if they are only small. But it might be worth in the future adding more or a larger filter.


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## Philcw (Feb 7, 2008)

Not entirely sure yet, i have a spare 120L tank that i can put them in but i have no established filter for it, unless i start fishless cycling it now with a different filter.

Then i can put them in the new smaller tank, keep the bio load running on the big tank for a few days via fish food going in and then add some cichlids.

Somebody recommended using a small powerhead with malawi's due to the complex cave/rock systems thus creating alot of deadspots. Do they like a current in the water? as i know some cichlids hate it.


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## Zincubus (Sep 6, 2010)

HABU said:


> real estate and nooks and crannies is what it's all about... lots of caves and crowd them in... frequent water changes...
> 
> image



Beautiful . I really miss my tank of Malawis although I did swap them for a stunning Albino Royal so I shouldn't complain .


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## Dan12345 (Sep 5, 2012)

Philcw said:


> Not entirely sure yet, i have a spare 120L tank that i can put them in but i have no established filter for it, unless i start fishless cycling it now with a different filter.
> 
> Then i can put them in the new smaller tank, keep the bio load running on the big tank for a few days via fish food going in and then add some cichlids.
> 
> Somebody recommended using a small powerhead with malawi's due to the complex cave/rock systems thus creating alot of deadspots. Do they like a current in the water? as i know some cichlids hate it.


There will be dead spots, but a little swirl around with a syphon will pick up any waste that isn't being pushed towards the filter. I didn't add any powerhead other than the normal surface agitation you would get from the canisters. 
Its up to you on the powerhead, I will say though that I never noticed my Malawi's actively seeking out the current coming out of the canisters so I would say as long as you have the surface movement for oxygen then there is no need for a current.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

power heads rock...


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