# Enigma Breeding



## Juggerz (Jan 12, 2014)

Hi guys, I own a Male Enigma Leopard gecko. I was wondering, should I breed it with a different morph female? I am fully aware of Enigma Syndrome and my Gecko does not suffer from it at all. He is a healthy Gecko and is able to feed, water and doesnt star gaze or chase his tail. All advice is appreciated and suggested morphs would be helpful  Thankyou

Juggerz


----------



## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Breeding Enigmas is always a gamble. You can probably minimise the dangers of Enigma Syndrome in the youngsters by crossing with a non-Enigma (so that the offspring will only carry one copy of the Enigma gene but will still be visually Enigmas) and only breeding from adult Enigmas that show no symptoms. If you were to go ahead it would also be fairer on any purchaser to hold back the youngsters for much longer than normal. But - as said - there is always a risk. 
I have a symptom free supersnow enigma male who has produced some lovely babies for me in the past - all of which I held back for at least 12 months to check for any sign of ES - but I won't take the risk now and he won't be bred again. This is just my preference and you need to decide for yourself.


----------



## Juggerz (Jan 12, 2014)

jools said:


> Breeding Enigmas is always a gamble. You can probably minimise the dangers of Enigma Syndrome in the youngsters by crossing with a non-Enigma (so that the offspring will only carry one copy of the Enigma gene but will still be visually Enigmas) and only breeding from adult Enigmas that show no symptoms. If you were to go ahead it would also be fairer on any purchaser to hold back the youngsters for much longer than normal. But - as said - there is always a risk.
> I have a symptom free supersnow enigma male who has produced some lovely babies for me in the past - all of which I held back for at least 12 months to check for any sign of ES - but I won't take the risk now and he won't be bred again. This is just my preference and you need to decide for yourself.


Hi Jools, Thanks for your advice and input, I really appreciate it. If I do go ahead and buy a female it will be my first time breeding. Just a few questions. What morph female should I buy? And is breeding season in November? Thankyou


----------



## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

What morph you choose would depend what type of Enigma you have (Albino? Snow? etc.)

But please don't take this the wrong way - it IS meant to be helpful. If you are having to ask when the breeding season is (and, no, it is not usually November) then you need to read up an awful lot more before you attempt to breed any sort of Leopard gecko - but especially Enigmas. 

I understand you might be asking this at this point to help you choose another Leo. Mal has done a lot of research and a study on the incidence of ES in Leos - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/943188-enigma-syndrome-study-tess-results.html


----------



## Juggerz (Jan 12, 2014)

jools said:


> What morph you choose would depend what type of Enigma you have (Albino? Snow? etc.)
> 
> But please don't take this the wrong way - it IS meant to be helpful. If you are having to ask when the breeding season is (and, no, it is not usually November) then you need to read up an awful lot more before you attempt to breed any sort of Leopard gecko - but especially Enigmas.
> 
> I understand you might be asking this at this point to help you choose another Leo. Mal has done a lot of research and a study on the incidence of ES in Leos - http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/943188-enigma-syndrome-study-tess-results.html


Sorry I was getting confused with something else with the breeding season. Also I just have a normal Engima


----------



## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

jools said:


> If you are having to ask when the breeding season is (and, no, it is not usually November) then you need to read up an awful lot more before you attempt to breed any sort of Leopard gecko - but especially Enigmas.


I'm not going to get sucked into the enigma "debate" again. I've said often enough that people should stop breeding them....

What I would like to find out is why on earth you can't breed leopard geckos in November? They don't know what the date is!


----------



## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

Jeffers3 said:


> What I would like to find out is why on earth you can't breed leopard geckos in November? They don't know what the date is!


 Not many females - in my experience - will be ovulating then. Mine, and anecdotally many other owners Leos', certainly seem to know the time of year. They even know when it's Christmas 'cause they get fairy lights and Santa leaves them a pressie :lol2:


----------



## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

jools said:


> Not many females - in my experience - will be ovulating then. Mine, and anecdotally many other owners Leos', certainly seem to know the time of year. They even know when it's Christmas 'cause they get fairy lights and Santa leaves them a pressie :lol2:


Sorry - I forgot that they need presents to get them ovulating. It seems females of many species are the same... :lol2:

Seriously, though, how on earth are they to know what the "season" is? They're in a thermostatically controlled environment, with "daytime" controlled by the keeper altering the timer on the lights. How can they detect the weather outside?

Just assuming they had some seasonal trigger from the weather outside, how can this be compared to the triggers from their natural environment?


----------



## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Jeffers3 said:


> Sorry - I forgot that they need presents to get them ovulating. It seems females of many species are the same... :lol2:
> 
> Seriously, though, how on earth are they to know what the "season" is? They're in a thermostatically controlled environment, with "daytime" controlled by the keeper altering the timer on the lights. How can they detect the weather outside?
> 
> Just assuming they had some seasonal trigger from the weather outside, how can this be compared to the triggers from their natural environment?


Its more than light and temperature. Barometric pressure and possibly many factors we are unaware of. What makes Beardies brumate ? If temperature doesn't change, if lighting isnt altered they still go for a winter snooze. They still wake up in spring with one thing very much in mind. The triggers for these behaviours are probably far more complex than we realise.


----------



## jools (Apr 4, 2009)

To add to Mals post - with which I am in full agreement - most Leos are kept with only a heatmat for heat. This will, as you know Jeffers, heat the substrate, but doesn't do much for ambient temps. So more often than not the ambient temp in the viv will also fall during the winter months. Believe me - my Leos at least - certainly know the seasons.


----------



## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

The barometric pressure theory doesn't make sense, since it varies a lot all year round.

Lighting levels don't make sense - unless you deliberately change the lighting levels and times, which is something you could do at any time of the year.

Temperatures I can accept - if your conditions vary that much, then it is possible that the leopard gecko is getting cold and will react accordingly. In fact, since my leopard gecko is in a place where it doesn't fluctuate - and she doesn't brumate, that really supports the theory.

I don't believe all the "mysterious" powers that reptiles are supposed to have. There is nothing anatomically that suggests they can do much. Even the parietal eye in beardies is pretty well understood (we have one too, by the way).


----------



## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Temps in our gecko room are between 72 &78 f. Lighting is controlled by a timer. The leo racks are all thermostatically controlled. All parameters are the same 24 hours a day and 52 weeks a year. We don't alter the settings on lights or the stats. Same with the tanks housing other species. UV canopies, heat lamps etc.Once they are set up they stay that way. Its been that way for at least 6 years. Our leos have just started ovulating and will carry on until late September. The cave geckos for the last 4 years although in permanent groups have only produced eggs from June through to the end of September. Our Barking Geckos have only just started. So despite there being no obvious change in temperature or lighting throughout the year we clearly have a defined breeding season. The same thing has been reported by hundreds of hobbyist breeders and large scale commercial breeders. Obviously there is something other than temperature or lighting effecting behaviour.


----------



## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Mal said:


> Temps in our gecko room are between 72 &78 f. Lighting is controlled by a timer. The leo racks are all thermostatically controlled. All parameters are the same 24 hours a day and 52 weeks a year. We don't alter the settings on lights or the stats. Same with the tanks housing other species. UV canopies, heat lamps etc.Once they are set up they stay that way. Its been that way for at least 6 years. Our leos have just started ovulating and will carry on until late September. The cave geckos for the last 4 years although in permanent groups have only produced eggs from June through to the end of September. Our Barking Geckos have only just started. So despite there being no obvious change in temperature or lighting throughout the year we clearly have a defined breeding season. The same thing has been reported by hundreds of hobbyist breeders and large scale commercial breeders. Obviously there is something other than temperature or lighting effecting behaviour.


Perhaps they use the Force? :lol2:


----------



## Mal (Jul 22, 2007)

Jeffers3 said:


> Perhaps they use the Force? :lol2:
> 
> image


You disappoint me Jeffers. I thought you were going to provide the answer to why despite a controlled and stable environment these animals have a defined breeding season. Maybe they are more complex than we give them credit for. Lets face it, the humble pigeon has kept us baffled for years with regards to their amazing navigational abilities. Its only recently that this mystery has been tentatively solved. They don't however seem anymore intelligent or complex than a reptile though. I think we simply have to accept that there are things relating to animals that we may never fully understand. In many cases they are much cleverer than we give them credit for.


----------



## Jeffers3 (May 18, 2010)

Mal said:


> You disappoint me Jeffers. I thought you were going to provide the answer to why despite a controlled and stable environment these animals have a defined breeding season. Maybe they are more complex than we give them credit for. Lets face it, the humble pigeon has kept us baffled for years with regards to their amazing navigational abilities. Its only recently that this mystery has been tentatively solved. They don't however seem anymore intelligent or complex than a reptile though. I think we simply have to accept that there are things relating to animals that we may never fully understand. In many cases they are much cleverer than we give them credit for.


Sorry to disappoint you, Mal.

I haven't read a study or seen any definitive evidence (other than some anecdotal posts) for the supposed abilities of some reptiles. Also, I haven't done any proper studies of my own, so that's why I've disappointed you again, Mal. The problem with your argument is that many people breed leopard geckos at other times of the year. They are not all born within a small timeframe. So, have these animals got faulty "powers"?

I admit that the majority will be bred according to your "season", but this is due to most breeders preparing for the big shows. Most will have deliberately changed the light and temperature conditions. Many will also deliberately introduce males and females at this time. No matter how they are conditioned, they can't breed if they are in different vivaria.

The "humble" pigeon is far from humble. They are highly intelligent, being one of a very small group of animals to exhibit self-awareness via the mirror test. They are, therefore, remarkable even by most bird standards (crows, parrots and magpies being some others). Despite birds and reptiles being fairly closely related, it's very naive to think that reptile brains are as complex as those of birds. Birds contain larger cerebral hemispheres and cerebella. These regions are responsible for communication, sensory processing, learning and memory.

I'm afraid that I don't accept that there are things that we can never know. Things that seem trivial and mundane to us now would have been fantastic and magical just a few hundred years ago. Reptiles exist in the same universe as us and are governed by the same physics and chemistry. We understand their anatomy pretty well and their genome and proteome is also well covered. Nothing remarkable has been found. Your proposition of them having some sort of ESP also seems very unlikely. People have been studying this for many years and it has never been definitively demonstrated, despite massive prizes being on offer.


----------

