# left fuming...



## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

was in a shop yesterday (you all know it, big commertial 'pet shop' advertises on tv, we all avoid it) and i saw an employee giving 'advice' to a couple....

Nitrites on the water test where off the scale and the employee said:
'Stop water changing, just leave it... in fact you shouldnt even do water changes in a fish tank because you get rid of all the bacteria in the water'

I bit my lip and walked out fuming... I have written a complaint to the head office.


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## Berkshire Exotics (Nov 28, 2011)

We're there fish in the tank ? If not I wouldn't water change it either it will lead to a more established tank in the end IMO take longer, surprised they didn't sell them bacteria and send them on their way 

But if fish in the much much different advice needed !!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

As above... if there are no fish in it, you'll cycle it quicker without a water change!

In these sorts of cases I think you should always politely chat to the people after or during... find out the situation... I bet they've just started out and were wondering whether they could put fish in it yet, and the person was saying to wait, and do no water changes yet. Which is the correct advice. 

Perhaps s/he worded the last bit incorrectly.... meaning _temporarily_ not to do water changes. 

Obviously if there are fish in it, it's a whole different matter.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

they had fish. They said 'everytime we add some, some of the other die'... They gave the wrong advice, she clearly told to never clean there tank. Didnt ask how many fish they had, what they had, how big the tank was... nothing


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## Railz (Oct 30, 2010)

what confuses me is how you know the nitrates were off the scale ? were u stood with the couple and shop assistant? and were you able to see the results of the tests with the test checker? different tests have different colors for the results.
secondly , you can leave tanks go without a water change for a long time , i know several customers who will not water change for atleast a month or 2 , but control nitrates through other ways No3o4-x , and denitrol for example. Dont jump the gun till you know the facts as Ash said try to speak politely with the customers when the assistant has gone.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

I was standing next to them, they use the same test i do. We're talking about a couple that where clearly not fish keepers like we are. They had no idea about filtering and cycling... this isnt the first time ive been in one of these stores and seen employees trying to give advice and failing miserably.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Fair enough then yes, awful advice!

It's not to do with the fact it's a [email protected] though, it's just to do with the fact the person they hired is rubbish... it's that particular franchise's manager's fault... nothing more than that. [email protected] head office don't choose Aquatic managers do they? 

(Can you tell [email protected] pay my wages? :whistling2


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

its the three north west stores.

Chester, Caldy vally and bromborough

All three ive been in, and all three ive been faced with employees who havent got a clue. Im a bit naughty actually - ill ask someone a question just to see a responce... 

Do you have Otocinculus? 
-whats one of them?
Its a small cat fish that eats algae..
- umm.. dunno, can you see em in the tanks?

may i have that amazonian sword plant please?
- can you point it out i dunno about plants

What can those Firemouth cichlids go with?
- oh they go with anything, can be nippy, but you can put em in with pretty much anything.


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## Railz (Oct 30, 2010)

theres thousands of aspects of fishkeeping , and a few different ways to keep them , cold water , pond, marine, and tropical, not every member of staff will know everything about everything. No matter what store or chain your in.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

of course i dont expect them to know everything... But when faced with the very very basics of water quality they SHOULD know - after all they advertise on tv saying they are all trained and experts. If we can learn the basics, someone who does for a living should know it too!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Oh I always ask tester questions too, out of interest... in any store. I always think there's some tell tail signs of stores that might not be up to scratch... like those bog plants under water for general sale... (which will last a couple of weeks)... how they split up cichlids and such like, warning / size signs on tanks... etc etc. 

But as I say, it's down to the actual stores. It's not a nationwide brand thing... apparently [email protected] in High Wycombe is great (I've not been but got good reviews)... it's down to managers and aquatic managers isn't it, just like any store. You get shite normal stores, and good normal stores, likewise for [email protected]


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

true Alan.... but im still writing a letter of complaint to highlight their staff need more basic training.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> true Alan.... but im still writing a letter of complaint to highlight their staff need more basic training.


STOP CALLING ME ALAN. :lol2: Look at my username!! It says my name in the first 3 letters, and it's repeated twice more in the successive letters :lol2:


Anyways, yes, I agree. Write a polite but informative letter just explaining the situation and asking them to consider reviewing their aquatic staff. Be warned that they will almost certainly want specific details though - the employees name, date, time, context.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

yeah, ive knda written it in a 'they need help, contact me if want someone to train them' 

sorry... i keep reading your name as Alan... i dont...know... why...


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> yeah, ive knda written it in a 'they need help, contact me if want someone to train them'
> 
> sorry... i keep reading your name as Alan... i dont...know... why...


Well, my name's clearly "Ash" :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Hmm... dunno about the last "contact me if you need help" bit... little bit cocky.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

didnt you know dear? im:

Frostpaw BSc  

But despite all my towering genius... i still keep getting your name wrong. *facedesks*


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## Railz (Oct 30, 2010)

alan! alan! alan! , steve! steve!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> didnt you know dear? im:
> 
> Frostpaw BSc
> 
> But despite all my towering genius... i still keep getting your name wrong. *facedesks*


I've got more letters after my name! :Na_Na_Na_Na::Na_Na_Na_Na:



Railz said:


> alan! alan! alan! , steve! steve!


Alan Partridge Steve Coogan- DAN! - YouTube

:lol2:


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

*hugs ASH* you always make me laugh


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Frostpaw said:


> *hugs ASH* you always make me laugh


:lol2: I always thought you were male :blush:


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

no im a girly... im 27... and in the northwest


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> its the three north west stores.
> 
> Chester, Caldy vally and bromborough
> 
> ...


Considering [email protected] stock Otocinclus affinis regularly I don't see the point of your comment? A supplier of mine owns the fish sold through [email protected] stores (The fish do not belong to [email protected]) so I'm acutely aware of what they stock seeing as the importers I visit weekly has tanks of fish labelled up for their stores. 

If you asked me for an Amozonian sword plant, I'd ask if you meant an amazon sword plant. And if I wanted to be a real pedantic twat, I'd ask if you wanted Echinodorus amazonicus or Echinodorus bleheri seeing as both are sold as amazon swords in the UK trade, despite only one being the real thing. If someone asked for an 'amazonian sword' I'd think their knowledge was flawed. 

Are you really experienced enough to truly attack shops? An aquatic society I used to be a member of did some stirling work educating staff at some branches, [email protected] really do want to offer good advise, and I can assure you that every issue you see at a [email protected] store will be found in an independant or other large chain at some point. 

[email protected] bashing is very boring. Very disingenuous in many cases too. You achieve nothing of any value by doing it.


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

if PAH stock Otos regularaly... then the staff SHOULD know what they are surely? if they see them so much...

The point im getting at is this: its ok if you missell or give some bad advice about an inanimate object, but fish are not 'objetcs' they are living breathing creatures... as such the staff should know the basics of aquarium care. If bad advice was given about a cat, dog, rabbit... that resulted in death there would be hell to pay - but even this big 'expert store' doesnt seem to think that bad advice is a problem, and it doesnt matter if a few more fish die.

Someone posted a few days ago about how an employees attitude in their LFS put them off buying as he seemed not to really care. Well this attitude is one im coming across nearly everytime i go into that store. They dont seem to care one way or the other how the fish is sold, and how people are going to keep it.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> if PAH stock Otos regularaly... then the staff SHOULD know what they are surely? if they see them so much....


They do. I have access to the same stocklists that their northern stores do. Southern stores use a different supplier. The word 'otto; is bit too non descript for me, but in our local stores the 'Ottos' are labelled up in their tanks, so I disagree that [email protected] don't know what an Otto is. Why would they have stickers with the species name and price if they did not? 




Frostpaw said:


> The point im getting at is this: its ok if you missell or give some bad advice about an inanimate object, but fish are not 'objetcs' they are living breathing creatures... as such the staff should know the basics of aquarium care. If bad advice was given about a cat, dog, rabbit... that resulted in death there would be hell to pay - but even this big 'expert store' doesnt seem to think that bad advice is a problem, and it doesnt matter if a few more fish die.


I've kept ornamental fish for over 30 years. I've bred many species and worked in both the retail and wholesale areas of the business. Although I have a career elsewhere now, I still own an aquatics business to keep me in the loop with the industry so to speak. I become very annoyed when people see these creatures as 'just a fish'. They deserve much better. As a result I'm a founding member of the UK's first (we think) ornamental fish welfare group and will be actively looking at trying to reduce some of the issues you mention. So yeah, I'm aware of what you are saying. So much so I even spend my own hard earned on trying to make a difference. 



Frostpaw said:


> Someone posted a few days ago about how an employees attitude in their LFS put them off buying as he seemed not to really care. Well this attitude is one im coming across nearly everytime i go into that store. They dont seem to care one way or the other how the fish is sold, and how people are going to keep it.


The thread was removed due to naming and shaming. The individual may have a point, but did not act with much common sense. They should have escalated the issue to the store manager. Remember, people with poor attitudes exist in all industries. Not just the pet trade!


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## Frostpaw (May 10, 2010)

which is why i am A) Fuming.. and B) writing a letter of complaint!


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Frostpaw said:


> which is why i am A) Fuming.. and B) writing a letter of complaint!


What are you hoping to achieve with your letter?


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

Eh, we all know I dislike [email protected] but its nothing personal. Its more a case of... its a 'pet supermarket'. Bit of "Jack of all trades, master of none". They do a little bit of everything, know a little bit of everything but not a lot of anything.

[email protected] in Hemel Hempstead is good and [email protected] in High Wycombe is pretty good, the aquatics section anyway! But realistically... thats because the aquatics managers in both stores are ex maidenhead aquatics staff and have far better knowledge! 

My ex colleague is now working in [email protected] High Wycombe so am hearing a fair bit about it, it apparently isn't too bad, stupid work shift patterns and the training was... dire... but kind of expected. At least my mate already knows his stuff and he went there with the intention of doing as well as possible and changing things.

We have customers week after week after week who come in with 'we were told this and we were advised that' from [email protected] and all I can do is cringe and tell them to forget everything they have been told and readvise them... but a dare say half the time, its the customers not listening or understanding in the first place that causes problems. The people that live around here are incredibly stupid LOL

Again, a lot of the problem is the customers not doing research, if you know that you need specific advise and help, go to a specialist... if you have never used a computer before and you want to buy one but need help... you dont just buy one off ebay and hope the seller can advise you everything you need to know. You go to somewhere like PC world or whatever that specialise in what they sell.

Its the same with [email protected], they have good prices, basic stock and so on... you go there, you select what you want and you buy it. If you need help and information, you go somewhere else that can give you some advise. Simple as. 

Letter to head office likely wont get you anything other than ignored anyway, best person to speak to is the Store Manager. I had to make a complaint in the Hemel Hempstead branch (very good store but aquatics manager told a new member of staff that was helping me and doing very good job on his first day!! that he was a f*cking idiot if he couldnt ID a species of cory that even i didnt recognise, he told me it was a bronze cory...it was black and white and spotty... lol) So i went to the tills and asked to speak to whoever was highest up in the food chain so to speak and it happened to be that the store manager was about. I have to admit, they were helpful to the point i was almost expecting him to offer to pay me to go away! I got free PFK magazine and the angelfish i was buying to rescue from the tiger barb tank i got for free and they were incredibly worried, polite and very apologetic. I told them that it wasnt me they needed to be apologising to but the new member of staff and that the manager neededa good kick up the a$$ which they assured me he would get. (last i heard he was transferred out!). Being polite to the people higher up is far more effective than writing letters to the secretaries of the company who dont really care. No doubt yours will be lost amongst the many complaints lol


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## Gt Turbo (Feb 9, 2011)

AshMashMash said:


> :lol2: I always thought you were male :blush:


And i always thought that you (ash) were a girl. :lol2:

internet forums are a bad place for assuming ppl's sexes.:blush:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Gt Turbo said:


> And i always thought that you (ash) were a girl. :lol2:
> 
> internet forums are a bad place for assuming ppl's sexes.:blush:


I get that a bit


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> I get that a bit


I knew you were a guy, it's kind of obvious :whistling2:

But I too thought frostpaw was a guy :blush:

For the record I'm female :lol2:

And bad advise is across the board in all these shops. It's very annoying they can't get the basics right, but unless we stand there and corner all the customers there's not much we can do. 

Good luck with the letter :2thumb:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> I knew you were a guy, it's kind of obvious :whistling2:


It is? How comes? :gasp:


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## Gt Turbo (Feb 9, 2011)

JoPwerks said:


> I knew you were a guy, it's kind of obvious :whistling2:
> 
> But I too thought frostpaw was a guy :blush:
> 
> ...


JoPwerks is a girl??? Somebody is telling lies around here, and I am not kidding. 

Out of curiosity, how old are you JoPwerks?

I thought you were a 15 -18 dude :blush:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> It is? How comes? :gasp:


The name Ash for one and your eye, (if that is your eye) and a girl would never speak to me like you do :lol2: ( only joking about the last bit :2thumb


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

Gt Turbo said:


> JoPwerks is a girl??? Somebody is telling lies around here, and I am not kidding.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how old are you JoPwerks?
> 
> I thought you were a 15 -18 dude :blush:


:lol2: I'm 41


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> The name Ash for one and your eye, (if that is your eye) and a girl would never speak to me like you do :lol2: ( only joking about the last bit :2thumb


Ash is a female name too and that eye is pretty... feminine, is it not? That's why people often mistake me for female at first :blush:

How do I speak to ya? :gasp:


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## Gt Turbo (Feb 9, 2011)

JoPwerks said:


> The name Ash for one and your eye, (if that is your eye) and a girl would never speak to me like you do :lol2: ( only joking about the last bit :2thumb


That's not true (about the eye) it looks girly to me :whistling2:

And 41, i'm floored. I'm gonna have to take a look at how i view all the forum members now.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Gt Turbo said:


> That's not true (about the eye) it looks girly to me :whistling2:
> 
> And 41, i'm floored. I'm gonna have to take a look at how i view all the forum members now.


ASL of you?


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Ash is a female name too and that eye is pretty... feminine, is it not? That's why people often mistake me for female at first :blush:
> 
> How do I speak to ya? :gasp:


Well when I saw Ash I just presumed male, maybe that's just me :lol2: no makeup on the eye makes me think male  and I was joking about the way you speak to me, just I remember our little altercation about external filters :lol2:

GT - why did you think I was 15-18 :gasp: apart from my overuse of smilies I thought I spoke quite old :whistling2:


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## Moogloo (Mar 15, 2010)

:lolsign:Ash, you have very pretty eyes :flrt:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> Well when I saw Ash I just presumed male, maybe that's just me no makeup on the eye makes me think male  and I was joking about the way you speak to me, just I remember our little altercation about external filters


Haha fair do's! "Ash" is more male in the UK I think :2thumb: 

Haha, it wasn't an altercation was it! :gasp: My opinion posted, your opinion posted... that's what forums are about.



Moogloo said:


> :lolsign:Ash, you have very pretty eyes :flrt:


I'm in there :flrt:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Haha fair do's! "Ash" is more male in the UK I think :2thumb:
> 
> Haha, it wasn't an altercation was it! :gasp: My opinion posted, your opinion posted... that's what forums are about.


Yes of course that's why I called it that instead of saying our row or argument : victory:

This is an eye opener, I think I'll not presume, I got it right with you Ash but I get it wrong a lot :lol2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> Yes of course that's why I called it that instead of saying our row or argument : victory:
> 
> This is an eye opener, I think I'll not presume, I got it right with you Ash but I get it wrong a lot :lol2:


That's why everyone should put their info on their user profile :devil:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> That's why everyone should put their info on their user profile :devil:


I thought I had :whistling2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> I thought I had :whistling2:


That's why everyone should read the info people carefully and specifically put in their user profiles! :devil:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> That's why everyone should read the info people carefully and specifically put in their user profiles! :devil:


:lol2: well it's given me a laugh :2thumb:


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## Railz (Oct 30, 2010)

i also thought Ash was a girl till reading alot of stuff on the forbidden forum threads lol but ye knew jopwerks was female from her posts


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Railz said:


> i also thought Ash was a girl till reading alot of stuff on the forbidden forum threads lol but ye knew jopwerks was female from her posts


:gasp:! I don't know _what_ you're talking about :whistling2: I don't go into these dirty sections :whistling2:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

Railz said:


> i also thought Ash was a girl till reading alot of stuff on the forbidden forum threads lol but ye knew jopwerks was female from her posts


:lol2: forbidden forum threads? 

Did you think I was 15-18? I'm still very shocked at that, maybe I've spent too much time with my 15 year daughter :lol2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> :lol2: forbidden forum threads?


Come say hello  (see HERE first)


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Come say hello  (see HERE first)


:gasp: is it safe for an oldie like :lol2:


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## Railz (Oct 30, 2010)

AshMashMash said:


> Come say hello  (see HERE first)


 theres some very strange entry rules when u first join mind :lol2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> :gasp: is it safe for an oldie like :lol2:


Yeh totally. We've got a couple of women your age and older revealing their very very private parts on a daily basis. Good (if forced) education for the likes of me


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Yeh totally. We've got a couple of women your age and older revealing their very very private parts on a daily basis. Good (if forced) education for the likes of me


:gasp::gasp:

I'm Welsh, I don't do things like that!

I've just read the rules I seem to qualify :whistling2: :lol2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

JoPwerks said:


> :gasp::gasp:
> 
> I'm Welsh, I don't do things like that!
> 
> I've just read the rules I seem to qualify :whistling2: :lol2:


Yeh, there are rules to get in "Be 18, Post a bit", etc.... but there are _requirements_ once you're in. 

See Spencerwell's thread once you're in :2thumb:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

AshMashMash said:


> Yeh, there are rules to get in "Be 18, Post a bit", etc.... but there are _requirements_ once you're in.
> 
> See Spencerwell's thread once you're in :2thumb:


:gasp: not sure I'm brave enough to go in there :lol2:


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## Railz (Oct 30, 2010)

go in and have a nose just dont "expose" yourself and keep hidden lol as people will demand flesh


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Railz said:


> go in and have a nose just dont "expose" yourself and keep hidden lol as people will demand flesh


I might "out" you as "unexposed to date" :whistling2:


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## Gt Turbo (Feb 9, 2011)

AshMashMash said:


> ASL of you?


Sorry, been away from the forum for a wee bit.

ASL <-- :lol2: the last time i saw that was 12 years ago, when chat rooms were the big thing.

29/M/Barbados


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## Gt Turbo (Feb 9, 2011)

Railz said:


> theres some very strange entry rules when u first join mind :lol2:


I did not even know that there was a section on here like that. I only ever come in the fish keeping section and seemingly, i do not qualify. :2wallbang::2wallbang:


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

Gt Turbo said:


> Sorry, been away from the forum for a wee bit.
> 
> ASL <-- :lol2: the last time i saw that was 12 years ago, when chat rooms were the big thing.
> 
> 29/M/Barbados



Dare I ask What ASL is :crazy:

Edit - I've worked it out now


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## Gt Turbo (Feb 9, 2011)

JoPwerks said:


> Dare I ask What ASL is :crazy:
> 
> Edit - I've worked it out now


Way back in the day, when as i said Chat Rooms were the big thing, when you started a conversation with a random person, that was the opener.

"A/S/L", and funny enough that usually dictated whether or not you would continue talking to the person. :lol2:

I feel old


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## JoPwerks (Mar 15, 2012)

Gt Turbo said:


> Way back in the day, when as i said Chat Rooms were the big thing, when you started a conversation with a random person, that was the opener.
> 
> "A/S/L", and funny enough that usually dictated whether or not you would continue talking to the person. :lol2:
> 
> I feel old


:gasp:Old? You are still in your twenties :lol2:

Ah right, well I think it's a good idea after this thread we are all getting A/S/L wrong :whistling2:


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> Hmm... dunno about the last "contact me if you need help" bit... little bit cocky.





Frostpaw said:


> didnt you know dear? im:
> 
> Frostpaw BSc


Sorry to get back on topic - but to address the above point, i'd agree it's probably best to leave the BSc bit out... I don't know if you were being serious, but it comes across as almost competitive, and believe it or not some of the senior pet management at [email protected] would 'win' on the letters front... in fish biology too! They do know their onions (or fish?!) - the problem is not the knowledge of the company, the knowledge is there, it's the dissemination (or lack thereof) by disinterested staff on the ground not engaging with their roles. Which is a real shame.


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