# Best genetic "bang" for the buck? Leo Gex



## Herpetrator (Jul 18, 2012)

Hello forum~
I'm new here. A recent purchase of a breeding rack for my up and coming leo project resulted in me bringing home two new snakes as well. Those are all I have at the moment. 

I am looking to do a breeding project with leopard geckos, and I am planning everything out. Right now, I am trying to decide what genetics to start with. I would like to get the most variety possible, morph wise, out of three breeding animals. I am interested in everyone's opinion on which combinations will yield the greatest chance for variety.

Tangerines are my favorite, though from my reading, it seems that tangerine coloring is a line bred trait, not recessive, so I can't het for it-or can I?

I also like the idea of the giant strains, and the genetics for that seems pretty straight forward.

It would be cool if I could have a nice group that all had het genetics for a variety of morphs/traits so my clutches will be a real surprise.


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## TWreptiles (Dec 21, 2011)

mack snow enigma het albino - male
mack snow albino - female
sunglow/hybino - female

these can be any strain of albino you like(bell, tremper or rainwater)

the possibilitys are:
albino
albino enigma
albino mack snow enigma
enigma het albino
mack snow albino
mack snow enigma het albino
mack snow het albino
super snow albino
super snow albino enigma
super snow enigma het albino
super snow het albino
normal het albino
sunglow
sunglow enigma
snowglow
snowglow enigma
hypo enigma het albino
hypo het albino
mack snow hypo het albino
mack snow hypo enigma het albino
:2thumb:


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

Herpetrator said:


> Hello forum~
> I'm new here. A recent purchase of a breeding rack for my up and coming leo project resulted in me bringing home two new snakes as well. Those are all I have at the moment.
> 
> I am looking to do a breeding project with leopard geckos, and I am planning everything out. Right now, I am trying to decide what genetics to start with. I would like to get the most variety possible, morph wise, out of three breeding animals. I am interested in everyone's opinion on which combinations will yield the greatest chance for variety.
> ...


If it were me I would ask myself a few questions....

1) Do I want to work with the Engima gene given all its problems?
2) Do I want to work with controversial "morphs", such as the giant, firefox, goblin etc...?
3) What strain of Albino would I like to work with?
4) What strain of Snow would I like to work with?

Chances are unless you answer Yes, Yes, Tremper Albino and Mack Snow your options are going to be cut down quite a lot.

Other things to ask are...

Whats my budget?
What do I have space for adult wise?
What do I have space for hatchling wise (and possibly not selling until adult)?

Things like RAPTORS/Radars/Typhoons aren genetic powerhouses alone, add the mack snow and enigma genes in the mix and you have so many genes at play.

How about a Super NOVA... The by the book genetic breakdown is... Super Snow, Tremper Albino, Eclipse, Patternless Reverse Stripe, Tangerine, Enigma. :mf_dribble:


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## Herpetrator (Jul 18, 2012)

This is excellent information!

I am aware of the enigma syndrome issue. I know there is some research going on to try and learn more about the reach of the neurological problems.I certainly wouldn't want to create more problems, though I would not mind participating in the research.

I've never heard of goblin etc....but I do love large geckos! Are there problems associated with these strains? I tried to research and find out, especially about the lifespan, but I didn't find much. Hopefully, the forums will yield some good and valid info to help me get a solid start. I want to do this correctly the first time.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

Herpetrator said:


> This is excellent information!
> 
> I am aware of the enigma syndrome issue. I know there is some research going on to try and learn more about the reach of the neurological problems.I certainly wouldn't want to create more problems, though I would not mind participating in the research.
> 
> I've never heard of goblin etc....but I do love large geckos! Are there problems associated with these strains? I tried to research and find out, especially about the lifespan, but I didn't find much. Hopefully, the forums will yield some good and valid info to help me get a solid start. I want to do this correctly the first time.


No health problems are associated with larger geckos, however there are problems with overweight geckos!

The reason I put giants in with the controversial morphs, is because there is some dispute about whether it is genetically inheritable, if it is whether is acts in a co dominant manner as advertised, and whether a lot of giants are the sizes the are due to environmental factors such as food quantities.

There are a number of recent threads discussing the matter.... I will see if I can dig them out.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/850672-giant-leopard-geckos-some-interesting.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/852611-giant-leopard-geckos-genetics-vs.html

:2thumb:


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## Herpetrator (Jul 18, 2012)

sam12345 said:


> No health problems are associated with larger geckos, however there are problems with overweight geckos!
> 
> The reason I put giants in with the controversial morphs, is because there is some dispute about whether it is genetically inheritable, if it is whether is acts in a co dominant manner as advertised, and whether a lot of giants are the sizes the are due to environmental factors such as food quantities.
> 
> There are a number of recent threads discussing the matter.... I will see if I can dig them out.


Ah, yes I can definitely see how that can be a problem. MANY of the giants on one breeder's site in particular, are quite overweight. Fat deposits everywhere. That's not giant, lol that's obese!
I will give those threads a good read through. That's interesting that the mechanism for the jumbo gex is not fully understood. Especially since on the Tremper's site they have a tidy little heritability chart for super giants/giants. 

Definitely seems like an easy way to get tricked though. Especially with juveniles.

///
Okay, so after reading through those threads the answer seems pretty clear to me. 
The giantism genetics exist, BUT the parameters that some breeders are using to label giants (weight @ age) is erroneous because just because a gecko is 120 grams, does not mean he carries giantism genetics. Apparently from what I've read, the only way to determine a gecko with giantism genetics is to access them as juveniles as they display key proportional differences at this age. This is still a little vague though as far as certainty goes - especially without knowing the mechanism of heritability.

But, I'm still intrigued by giant geckos. I will try and find some for sure examples if I do decide to explore that route.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

Herpetrator said:


> Ah, yes I can definitely see how that can be a problem. MANY of the giants on one breeder's site in particular, are quite overweight. Fat deposits everywhere. That's not giant, lol that's obese!
> I will give those threads a good read through. That's interesting that the mechanism for the jumbo gex is not fully understood. Especially since on the Tremper's site they have a tidy little heritability chart for super giants/giants.
> 
> Definitely seems like an easy way to get tricked though. Especially with juveniles.
> ...


In my eyes it works the same way as humans, with multiple gene pairs at work altering size.

Big gecko x big gecko = mostly big geckos
Big gecko x normal gecko = some big geckos
Normal gecko x normal gecko = mostly normal geckos

Quite easily mistaken for co dominant heritability, by someone who only understands very basic genetics, and not how various alleles can affect phenotype. And to be honest if luck plays its part, even to the most skilled geneticist it could look as if it acts co dominantly.... HOWEVER over time myself and many other breeders have bred these "giants" and had different results.

I have no doubt that the original giant line and it's direct descendants produce consistently big geckos but...
1) I don't think it acts codominantly 
2) even if it did too many people can't identify giants from normals and therefore sell them as giants thus making the new owner believe they have a giant and the cycle goes on
3) a lot of people over feed geckos in an attempt to break records

The data in the second thread I linked is definitely the only scientific type evidence ever been done with the trait that I know of.


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## Herpetrator (Jul 18, 2012)

Too bad we don't have any geneticist to run DNA studies for us. Shame I decided not to finish my degree in Forensic Science.  

Well, that's another bummer...but at least I am learning these things now before over paying for something that isn't what I think....or doesn't produce how I expect.


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