# Bell AND Tremper phenotype?



## funky1 (Jun 18, 2008)

Just a quick random Q, but I was wondering if it was at all possible for a leopard gecko to outwardly display the characteristics of 2 seperate strains of albino??? Eg if a Tremper het Bell was paired with a Bell het Tremper - could one of the babies show the characteristics of both, or would one always over-ride and hide the other? Not looked into it at all, just an off the cuff curiousity question!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

funky1 said:


> Just a quick random Q, but I was wondering if it was at all possible for a leopard gecko to outwardly display the characteristics of 2 seperate strains of albino??? Eg if a Tremper het Bell was paired with a Bell het Tremper - could one of the babies show the characteristics of both, or would one always over-ride and hide the other? Not looked into it at all, just an off the cuff curiousity question!


You mean a Talbinobalbino,Talbinoralbino,Balbinoralbino it is beleave to be the case.Just like you can get blizzardpatternless.Just hasn't been proven yet.One albino IMO would be visually expressed but breeding a Talbinobalbino to either a Talbino or Balbino will result in 100% of what it's been bred to.

Talbinobalbino X Talbino = Talbino HET Balbino.
Talbinobalbino X Balbino = Balbino HET Talbino.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

Are all the albino strains not allelic?


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

MrMike said:


> Are all the albino strains not allelic?


Not as far as anyone knows - breed a het Tremper to a het Bell and you just get all normals; presumably this would be the same if you bred a Tremper to a Bell (all normal 100% DH Talbino and Balbino).

I'd imagine that one of the albino strains would be epistatic to the others - there are several genes involved in melanin production, transport, storage and distribution; whichever one is "first" in the chain of events is the one that would be expressed. If you are unable to transport melanin to the pigment cells you'd appear as one type of albino (call it "X albino"), but if you can't produce melanin in the first place (call it "Y albino") then the fact that you can't transport it anywhere doesn't matter - you'll still look like a "Y albino" animal because the mutated "X albino" gene never even gets a chance to come into play.


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

HadesDragons said:


> Not as far as anyone knows - breed a het Tremper to a het Bell and you just get all normals; presumably this would be the same if you bred a Tremper to a Bell (all normal 100% DH Talbino and Balbino).
> 
> I'd imagine that one of the albino strains would be epistatic to the others - there are several genes involved in melanin production, transport, storage and distribution; whichever one is "first" in the chain of events is the one that would be expressed. If you are unable to transport melanin to the pigment cells you'd appear as one type of albino (call it "X albino"), but if you can't produce melanin in the first place (call it "Y albino") then the fact that you can't transport it anywhere doesn't matter - you'll still look like a "Y albino" animal because the mutated "X albino" gene never even gets a chance to come into play.


Ahh, I hadn't thought about that. As far as I know, a Bell x Tremper will give 100% Normals het Bell and Tremper. I hadn't thought about that. So if someone could make a triple het (Bell, Tremper and Rainwater) then that would prove these all act at different loci? Or at least one does.....


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

I think in the states they tried something with the bell and tremper strains.

Im pretty sure it turned out the homozygous bell homozygous tremper just looked tremper.

I dont know how much more was done on this subject to prove whether the gecko was 100% bells aswell or to see if it turned out that it could work both ways (ie bells being visual) but im almost certain it has been done.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

sam12345 said:


> Im pretty sure it turned out the homozygous bell homozygous tremper just looked tremper.


That would suggest that they're not allelic, and that Tremper is epistatic to Bell - ie it breaks the chain first, so the "Bell" part becomes irrelevent in phenotypic terms, as the melanin chain never even makes it to the stage where the Bell locus would be required.


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

HadesDragons said:


> That would suggest that they're not allelic, and that Tremper is epistatic to Bell - ie it breaks the chain first, so the "Bell" part becomes irrelevent in phenotypic terms, as the melanin chain never even makes it to the stage where the Bell locus would be required.


But like i say im not sure how much more was done.
However yes the first suggestions are that tremper dominant over bell when it comes to homozygous for 2 ressesive albino strains.


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## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

sam12345 said:


> But like i say im not sure how much more was done.
> However yes the first suggestions are that tremper dominant over bell when it comes to homozygous for 2 ressesive albino strains.


Any idea whether anyone's done anything similar with Rainwater?


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## MrMike (Jun 28, 2008)

sam12345 said:


> I think in the states they tried something with the bell and tremper strains.
> 
> Im pretty sure it turned out the homozygous bell homozygous tremper just looked tremper.
> 
> I dont know how much more was done on this subject to prove whether the gecko was 100% bells aswell or to see if it turned out that it could work both ways (ie bells being visual) but im almost certain it has been done.





HadesDragons said:


> That would suggest that they're not allelic, and that Tremper is epistatic to Bell - ie it breaks the chain first, so the "Bell" part becomes irrelevent in phenotypic terms, as the melanin chain never even makes it to the stage where the Bell locus would be required.


Intertesting stuff!


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

HadesDragons said:


> Any idea whether anyone's done anything similar with Rainwater?


I dont think anyone had... at the time.
Ill have a search quick i cant remember which forum or website it was on but there was quite a big thing on it.


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## kirsten (Jan 13, 2008)

funky1 said:


> Just a quick random Q, but I was wondering if it was at all possible for a leopard gecko to outwardly display the characteristics of 2 seperate strains of albino??? Eg if a Tremper het Bell was paired with a Bell het Tremper - could one of the babies show the characteristics of both, or would one always over-ride and hide the other? Not looked into it at all, just an off the cuff curiousity question!


 
great minds think alike eh tony? i've been pondering this exact scenario few a few weeks now and what the outcome would be. i think it would be a very interesting project, and possibly proove out the more dominant or higher up albino is, see for example if a talbino balbino always look tremper, or if the balbino can display as dominant over talbino at all.

on the laymans side of things i just wanted to know what it'd look like.


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## ern79 (Jul 26, 2007)

i have a load of dbl het females as in het bell and tremper, the one female is in with one of her sons so there is a (very) slight possibility that they could produce a double homozygous, shes also poss het patternless, god knows what will come out!


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

Cool, well let us know.... obviously a few seasons testing would need to be done.
If you dont feel up to it i know someone who is :whistling2:


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## ern79 (Jul 26, 2007)

sam12345 said:


> Cool, well let us know.... obviously a few seasons testing would need to be done.
> If you dont feel up to it i know someone who is :whistling2:


Well the first egg she laid was on 31st jan, unfortunately thats gone all discoloured and shrivelled up, theres another 5 or so in the bator though and more on the way, shes carrying good weight so hopefully she'll produce all season increasing the odds:no1:


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## sam12345 (Dec 28, 2007)

ern79 said:


> Well the first egg she laid was on 31st jan, unfortunately thats gone all discoloured and shrivelled up, theres another 5 or so in the bator though and more on the way, shes carrying good weight so hopefully she'll produce all season increasing the odds:no1:


Well fingers crossed for you:2thumb:


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## ern79 (Jul 26, 2007)

sam12345 said:


> Well fingers crossed for you:2thumb:


Thanks very much, its my first leo season but ive been trying to understand as much of the genetics as possible, I have about 30 odd eggs since the beginning of feb, will be interesting to see how the season pans out!:2thumb:


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