# Pet Keeping - A Cruelty



## Uncle Herp (Feb 10, 2007)

I recently posted this on our forum and got mixed responses from them. I'd sure like to know what you guys here think. This is how the it goes :

"Dear friends,they may be farmed animals,or maybe they were bought from some breeder,but aren't they still living beings?Don't they deserve freedom?Do you think that they love to stay in a small container,or a cage?whether it is a dog,or a snake or a grasshopper,won't they make all kind of noises and struggle to try and free themselves?When we were under British control,didn't we struggle to free ourselves?Of course,some of us bowed down to them,but they did it out of fear,not respect.and how can there be love if there is fear?Of course,dogs usually don't attack their owners,even the cruel owners.But the question is,if u love your pet,would you cage him?If you love ur pet,or ur husband or wife,won't you want them to be happy?How can they be happy if they are being kept controlled and locked all the time?Does love exist in you?

Have you seen the beauty of a birds flight?They are so happy that they start singing songs.Have you heard their beautiful songs.Have you seen a snake move in its natural habitat?How perfect they have blended with their environment that you usually cannot find them unless u know about snakes.Beauty is only found in freedom,and a possessive person has no love in him,for a loving person is a compassionate person,and certainly,caging an animal is a teribble act.
But surely,i do not condemn you.I just hope you realise the truth.Its important that we question ourselves and realise truth by our own,for if you realise that something is wrong,surely,the very realisation brings an end to that action.

Friend,the word captive in itself means to imprison.Therefore i ask the question,why do you imprison living beings?Don't you care for them?
Its true that captive breed animals have never seen the wild,and if released into the wild,they will die.On the part of the trader,all he wants is money,and therefore he will do the business that will give him money-where there is demand there is supply.But on your part,as an individual human being,don't you see the cruelty involved in this business?
Please,have a look at your pet.Do you think that it is happy inside those containers?Don't they always try to escape?Don't you feel sorry for them?Is your enjoyment more important that the snakes?Are you willing to sacrifice those lives for your enjoyment?
Put yourself in the snakes place.Do you like to be kept in a container?Would you like it if you were a captive breed human.
Friend,there are many slaves in the world,who were born slaves,that means their parents and grandparents were also slaves,yet,many try and try to run away from their masters,some of them have escaped to tell the horrible life they led.Do you think there is no more slavery?you have been sleeping.Search the net.
If you really see what i am saying to be true,don't buy captive breed animals anymore.If the buying stops,captive breeding will naturally stop.
so,why do you cage them if you love them?...you would say you don't want them to get hurt,if you have children,thats ok,because children don't know the danger,they are too small,but slowly,they will become independent.Its natural.nobody wants to stay locked in the house forever,right?And nobody wants to be following what elders say forever,right?(not meaning to disrespect elders,but we have our own brains and hearts,let us follow our hearts) 

But pets,they are kept in a cage all their lives...
Whats your response to this?

You know,i have had fishes before.In the beginning,they would be so lively,swimming all over,playing and discovering everything...but slowly they loose interest in life,because there is nothing else which they can do...its just a boring life.Life is a precious thing.Every animal wants to live,fully.
Its our fault to keep them in cages and breed them in the first place.And now,everybody is arguing that pets cannot live on their own...such an artificial world."


I would really love to see your responses to this statement...


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## dtaylor21184 (Dec 18, 2006)

your fish got bored cos they had nothing else to do? 

they have a short memory so how could they ever get bored thye would never realise they had nothing to do every few seconds and the enclosure would be brand new to them again.

i personally disagree with your statement and not wanting to go into things too deeply think that we are the ones trapped. the majority of people repetitively do the same things day in day out, we aren't free we have to go to work because otherwise we don't eat, don't have a house, can't buy treats, buy clothes.... a feeling a captive snake will never have they will never worry about there next meal, predators or shelter because we are always looking out for them. we eliminate the eliment of fear and worry for a captive reptile or any other pet, we offer it everything it will ever need and as a bonus they get our love and respect. we are the ones trapped by society, we are not free to do what we want, when we want no matter how much we'd like to think we are. 
i'm sure if you could communicate with a snake or any reptile and say ' listen i can offer you as much food as you can eat, clean water everyday, safety from being eaten or killed, shelter etc and in return all you have to do is settle for a smaller enclosure than your use to and in exchange you don't have to do anything for me' i'm sure they would be more than happy to come with you, wouldn't you?


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## dtaylor21184 (Dec 18, 2006)

do you believe all animals should be wild?

if this is true then your our asking us to become wild.

society was built from one factor in my opinion......farming.
before farming people travelled to where the food was, moved from place to place in the search of food until the day farming was developed and no longer did we have to hunt for food instead we breed the food in one place which in turn meant we no longer needed to move around thus towns and cities could be created keeping us in the same place as the food. so now what we give all that up and leave animals to become wild again and go hunt for them how would this ever work. then again you might just be talking about pets but where do you draw the line and say one animal can be kept captive and another must be free, surely the issue is the care they receive whilst in captivity not the issue of restraining an animal for our own pleasure.

without captive animals the world we live in woudn't be the same the ability to get food, medical research(whether its right or wrong is another issue) creating cures for disease, and a greater understanding of the natural world.

i apologise if no one agrees with me just sharing my opinions.


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

dtaylor21184 said:


> your fish got bored cos they had nothing else to do?
> 
> they have a short memory so how could they ever get bored thye would never realise they had nothing to do every few seconds and the enclosure would be brand new to them again.
> 
> ...


i see your point, but it has been proven that fish DO have longer memories, and do know their enviroment. i can go in depth,but i choose not to at this point. breifly, how will it know what to eat, if it only has a 22/5/6/10/20 second memory?

and for the latter part, have you seen that film, belive its jim carey, where the guy is in a studio, all his life. the urge for freedom, rather than a controled life.

if i wad to offer you the choice, your life, or a life in a caravan, where you get 3 meals per day, and a radio, with bed etc, would you accept, because essentually this is what the snake is given. the basic survival necessities, and a little enrichment. and it cannot choose.



dtaylor21184 said:


> do you believe all animals should be wild?
> 
> if this is true then your our asking us to become wild.
> 
> ...


i agree more with this, and it is a well put forward responce. and i will quote this again. 



dtaylor21184 said:


> the issue is the care they receive whilst in captivity not the issue of restraining an animal for our own pleasure.


in my opinion, humans are a selfish, and overly demanding speices. we do things for our own plesure, and say "four letters" to anyone who disagrees. 

i belive that caging of animals is neither wrong, nor right, just "somthing that is done" the bigger and better the cage, the more welcoming the enviroment. the more oppertunities the animal has to express natural behavour, the better the enviroment. i am agaisnst "racks" and tubs, as this is a un-natural setting, that IMO seems unfair. i also disagree with fish bowls. when i look at animals, i like to think "in its shoes" would i like the enclousure, if i answer no, or maybe, then it needs changing. 

i opt for the most natural setups possible, within expence, and try to enrich the animals lives. i leave scent trails for the snakes, and "hide" the prey. move things about often so it seems differnt and a few other things.

there is a BIG line between reptiles and fish etc, and mammals. mammals are normally social animals, and as such welcome the uman into their natural group. name one pet that is widley kept and friendly etc, that doesnt live wildly in groups. (i know there will be a few, but it makes u think, and i cant think of any off hand). the owner becomes part of the pack, pride or group. 

with cats especially, they opt for the easy option, they go out, and have the option to kill, and somtimes do, but 9 times out of 10, they dont, and come back for the bowl of food waiting. they have the option of freedom.

dogs, do also, off the lead playing fetch, they _could_ keep running etc, but they come back, they know the owner as part of the group, and the source of its food. 

rats, they are intellegent, as we are, they live out their on lives, in their cages, but we are part also, of the group. they enjoy our company. as we do theirs. 

Basically, what i am saying is animals that dont need a "natural" enviroment, and those that welcome us, make good pets and in my opinion are easy to satisfy. whever they are there for the food, or the company is another debate.

animals that tolerate us, and those who require a natural enviroment are never essentually "pets". but captive animals. they live in a mimiced enviroment, a controlled ecosystem if you will. 

the only reason pets need us, is becuse we have manipulated then in such a way, or removed them from their natural enviroment. 

i hate the term "pet" its not my pet-its a life. and i _never_ say that i "own" an animal. i live with it, care for it, and have payed for it, but i only "own" one life, mine. (i try not to use these terms but i slip-up) 

if you disagree please say so, but i will not start a big debate about my opinions in this topic. please feel free to pm me, or msn chat ([email protected]).

appologies also for the huge responce, but it is a subject close to my heart, as it were, and i have tried to keep it short. 

if i made little sence, i appologise, i havent slept in 28 hours.


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## dtaylor21184 (Dec 18, 2006)

> i hate the term "pet" its not my pet-its a life. and i _never_ say that i "own" an animal. i live with it, care for it, and have payed for it, but i only "own" one life, mine. (i try not to use these terms but i slip-up)


totally agree with this pet is such a controlling word.

i'm not agreeing that i would want to be in a restricted area with basic requirements for the rest of my life just justifying what is given to the animals.

i've never had the chance to discuss my farming theory i shared above as people think i'm mad when i start to explain it.

i do sometimes sit back and think of whether its right or wrong that we keep them the way we do but when you think of the world as a whole and what happens to a lot of animals in the wild by humans it makes you think maybe just maybe there better of with me.

its a touchy subject really to post here.

people feel the need to control everything even each other 

the world we live in is by no means perfect but it could be worse


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## dtaylor21184 (Dec 18, 2006)

> and for the latter part, have you seen that film, belive its jim carey, where the guy is in a studio, all his life. the urge for freedom, rather than a controled life.


not sure its the same he never see's his captor or knows that he is captive. a snake would be aware of your presence and aware that it is not nature for a larger animal to handle it regularly without killing it so must figure somethings wrong. he had everything normal just captive nothing out of the ordinary from his point of view. 

surely the questions is though if he was never aware of the rest of the world would he not just be content to live were he was like in _the village. _they were brought up to only know one thing and believed there world was all there was and never went looking for anything more.

how do you know your not being kept in captivity now and that all this isn't just a natural setup made to keep us in just on a larger scale and more complex?

gods idea of a pet


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Nice bit of PETA propaganda there, I'm sure they'll use it when they see it.

Honestly? Given a choice, if we could explain to wild animals that:

"I will feed you the food you want to eat, and you won't have to fight for it or risk getting hurt to eat. I will provide you with warmth and you will not have to compete with a more dominant animal for the best spot. I will provide you with shelter, and it will belong to you alone. I will provide you with a mate, and though you may not get to choose who it is, you will not have to fight and possibly die to get it. Your offspring will go on to populate the world, and they will also be protected. I will provide veterinary care so that if you get sick we can do our best to make you better. I will protect you from predators. I will protect you from cold. I will protect you from dehydration. I will protect you from other members of your species who are stronger or bigger than you. And all I ask is that you live in my house, in this cage, for the rest of your life..."

You'd have wild animals pounding your door down to get in.

Animals don't want to be "free" - they want food, water, shelter, protection from predators, not to have to fight conspecifics for the best resources... and that is what captivity offers. They don't have a concept of "freedom" in the same way humans do. And for that matter, not all humans want to be "Free". Some humans would break your door down to have everything provided for them, even if it came at the cost of their freedom.

However, this only works if people DO provide the right conditions for those in their care. Yes, some of the conditions we keep the animals in our custody in are deplorable - factory farmed chickens, puppy mills and so on. The point is not to "free" all animals... it is to improve the conditions for all animals.


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## leogirl (Oct 1, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Nice bit of PETA propaganda there, I'm sure they'll use it when they see it.
> 
> Honestly? Given a choice, if we could explain to wild animals that:
> 
> ...


well said!


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Animals don't want to be "free" - they want food, water, shelter, protection from predators, not to have to fight conspecifics for the best resources... and that is what captivity offers. They don't have a concept of "freedom" in the same way humans do. And for that matter, not all humans want to be "Free". Some humans would break your door down to have everything provided for them, even if it came at the cost of their freedom.
> 
> 
> > instatutionalisation, i do agree, but you doubt the animals understanding of captivity, yet you grantit the intelegence to want to be "safe" in captivity.
> ...


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Nice bit of PETA propaganda there, I'm sure they'll use it when they see it.
> 
> Honestly? Given a choice, if we could explain to wild animals that:
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100%. Humans have a concept of freedom that you cannot equate with animals really. Our freedom, is not the "freedom" that animals have in the wild. We do not get hunted and eaten, our every moment is not about having to survive, compete, fight, just for the basics of living, eating, mating. We don't have predators waiting for every wrong step, to take away our mate, our offspring.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I simply cannot understand how dogs can be drawn into this either; at least for me, and all the dog owners I know, a dog is not a "pet", you do not keep it in a cage and look at it - a dog is a far more intelligent and emotive animal than to do that. My dogs are part of my family. They do not have complete freedom to leave the house and walk where they want - but neither would my young children, because they would not be safe, and they are my responsibility. If dogs are only showing fear, and not respect, love and joy, then the owner has some serious problems and should not be keeping dogs. 

If your dog is not a member of your family, and you do not treat it with love and respect, it will not respond to you in turn. Family dogs as "pets", would not want to be turned out on the street. They suffer seperation anxiety when without you, and a dog can truly pine and grieve for a lost family member. Dogs are pack animals, with a dominant leader. Domesticated dogs keep that instinct. Humans are their family, with a dominant leader. They are completely domesticated, you simply cannot use domesticated animals as an example of something that would be happier in the "wild".


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

this is a seriously heavy subject which i dont want to make light of but just put my views across,firstly i love my animals and believe,with the exception of the fish they love me back in their own way,ive often looked at my leo and thought i wonder if youd rather be running free the point to that is captive bred animals if given the choice to be free have no idea of freedom,so relatively speaking they know nothing different to being in captivity,of course if we chose to look after reps/snakes/fish/birds we should provide the very best set up we can but they wouldnt understand the idea of being left to roam free because they never had,im not keen on the idea of wc animals because they are being denied what they know but i understand for bloodlines etc to enable us healthy animals this needs to happen(rightly or wrongly)its very easy for us who keep these things to say hey its not cruel and those of us who dont to say course it is,thats human nature we dont want to be seen as cruel,so theres a bigger picture here,cb really know no different,wc do,dogs and cats an entirely different in my opinion because as someone said already they have the option to flee should they want to but rarely any do,i could go on but its already a long post let me know how you feel about my views in some ways its niave to say they know no better but they really dont.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Athravan said:


> I simply cannot understand how dogs can be drawn into this either; at least for me, and all the dog owners I know, a dog is not a "pet", you do not keep it in a cage and look at it - a dog is a far more intelligent and emotive animal than to do that. My dogs are part of my family. They do not have complete freedom to leave the house and walk where they want - but neither would my young children, because they would not be safe, and they are my responsibility. If dogs are only showing fear, and not respect, love and joy, then the owner has some serious problems and should not be keeping dogs.
> 
> If your dog is not a member of your family, and you do not treat it with love and respect, it will not respond to you in turn. Family dogs as "pets", would not want to be turned out on the street. They suffer seperation anxiety when without you, and a dog can truly pine and grieve for a lost family member. Dogs are pack animals, with a dominant leader. Domesticated dogs keep that instinct. Humans are their family, with a dominant leader. They are completely domesticated, you simply cannot use domesticated animals as an example of something that would be happier in the "wild".


had a quick look in on this thread and saw you posted just b4 me,thats exactly true!!!!


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## eeji (Feb 22, 2006)

an animal, no matter what it is has but 4 NEEDS:
Food
Water
Shelter
Warmth

anything else is a WANT

this is such a deep subject, it makes my tiny little head hurt!


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## mark67123 (Jun 11, 2006)

"Put yourself in the snakes place.Do you like to be kept in a container?Would you like it if you were a captive breed human."

Well, I suppose I am a captive bred human, and I do spend most of my time in "containers" of one kind or another - my house, various buildings, vehicles,etc - and it's a lot better than being outside 24/7 thankyou very much.

You really can't impose human feelings/values onto reptiles, or most other animals. The reptilian brain in particular is capable of only very basic functions when compared to the human brain.

The whole statement reads like the worst kind of animal rights nonsense. 

My opinion? It's a load of old pants. 

Is all that what you really believe or are you just playing devil's advocate?? :devil:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

this has opened my eys, to a differnt way of thinking. 

captive borns, are not wild animals, in many cases they would not survive wildly.

i dont keep dog's, so any points i have made on them, is educated guesses, if i am wrong-sorry.

as for the basic requirements, this is technically correct, but i ask the question again. would you be happy with basic requrements, in a caravan, 2/3 meals a day, you would have your food water shelter and warmth, but is that a life. 

even if born into that surrounding, as many animals are, you will grow to hate it. you will be bored constantly. no purpose, NO LIFE.

if you have a caravan, with an outdoor pen, tv, sky, 3 meals, sncks, the internet etc, you would be much happier, and thats what i belive animals deserve. if they are captive, keep them captive, but enrich their lives, let them live. 

i know i am startin to sund like martin luther knig right now, but you can see my thoughts,, even if it is a little speechy!


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## Uncle Herp (Feb 10, 2007)

Hi guys... *Maybe I should have mentioned that the statement was not done by me. *It was actually taken from another site and I posted them in both forums in the UK and in Malaysia to see what are the responses from herp keepers like us... So sorry if it has stirred up things... 

For your info, most of us in Malaysia had also expressed our disagreement with this statement. The writer claims that he is not an animal activies but merely a human being wanting freedom for all living things in this world. I totally agree with what some of you said that we ourselves are "captives" in our own world. We are not "free" in a sense. I'm not sure what the writer is trying to achieve by writing this. Actually he has more to say but suffice to quote a few important points that he was trying to put forth.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*This is a topic I was actually going to bring up, but didn't know how to without putting too many people's backs up. The reason I was going to bring this topic up was because my mother (forgetting I am now a 'woman' with a teenager and a younger child lol) doesn't like the fact that I have several animals as part of my household. But she really cannot understand why I chose to bring reptiles in to my home away from their 'natural habitat'. And if we did not 'buy' them, then there would be no reason for the traders to breed/trade them. I have explained on numerous occassions everything that has been posted here, as I totally agree with all that has been said on this subject. To be honest, this is the ONLY thing we disagree about and makes the atmosphere unbearable sometimes. I have explained about WC & CB but she can't grasp the concept (which I guess is understandable if it's not what you spend a whole lot of time researching).*

*It pleases me to see so many people share the same views as it is actually wearing me down fighting her over this, to the point where I think 'well maybe it IS wrong'. Other than my children, the animals I share my home with ARE my life and I do everything within my power to make them as happy and comfortable as I possibly can. My take on this is - if I didn't take them home, somebody else would have. And that somebody may not have had the knowledge to care for them propperly i.e. husbandry, feeding etc etc and that reptile would have lived a very unhappy, painful life. That without the correct husbandry/environment a reptile will die a slow painful torturous death. She still can't accept this as viable.*

*I love some of the concepts you guys have put on this because it will help me explain to my mother in a broader spectrum, why it is not as 'bad/cruel' as she is making it out to be. She spent a lot of her youth living in African farmland where all the animals were free, even the 9 dogs, 12 cats and several hundred chickens that lived with her. None of them actually went inside the house. She is no way against animals at all, in fact she loves ALL animals and has been lucky enough to see all types of wild mammals/reptiles in their natural surroundings. She just doesn't think they should be kept under controlled conditions, and that they should be free to choose their way of life, that we are not giving them that choice, freedom or that no matter how much money, time or effort we spend on mimicing their environment, it will never be suitable. *

*I would like to thank Uncle Herp for starting this thread, and thank you to all for your input as this is an excellent way to help anyone who is dubious about 'keeping' any kind of mammal/reptile to understand why and how etc etc.*


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

hear hear.

i somtimes think, if i stopped, then it will all stop, but i am one person, i cannot make a difference in the whole thing, so why should i not have pets-that i love, and care dearly for-if everyone else will regardless of my actions.

at the risk of starting another debate.
i have a simalar opinion on eating meat. i tried being veggi, but didnt like it, humans are naturally omnivores. i also buy smart price, value and other cheap products. these come from caged animals etc, and are probably not that good for the animal. 
firstly, i cannot really afford to buy free range etc, without leaving myself short, and secondly, why bother. the chicken still lived its life in hell, until it was slaughtered and shrink wrapped, whever i eat it or not. the hens are still in the cages whever i buy the eggs or not. 

if everyone started buying f/r then i probably would, because this might actually make a difference. but while it accounts for 80% of the market, my 0.000001% will not even count. 

just my opinion


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> as for the basic requirements, this is technically correct, but i ask the question again. would you be happy with basic requrements, in a caravan, 2/3 meals a day, you would have your food water shelter and warmth, but is that a life.
> 
> even if born into that surrounding, as many animals are, you will grow to hate it. you will be bored constantly. no purpose, NO LIFE.


I dunno... I have to admit that, given the choice between having to 'fend for myself' in the real world - work, "hunt" for groceries, and risk losing my home and the material possessions I value if I fail - and having someone "keep" me in a caravan, make sure the larder's always stocked, make sure the heater's on, make sure the toilet works and make sure that there's at least SOME form of environmental enrichment (give me a piece of paper and a pencil and I'm set) .... the latter sounds bloody tempting.

Certainly the rise of people signing their freedom away voluntarily to become people's 'slaves' or 'pets' indicates that I can't possibly be the only one who would consider trading my freedom for security.

Besides, who says life has a 'purpose' anyway? Maybe my cat Newt sees her purpose as "Keep mum's chair warm when she's not in it, eat, crap, lie on the bed when mum's in her chair, pester for petting" ... in which case, captivity sure seems to suit her!


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*Mr darkdan99 (I assume you are a Mr & not a Mrs) you have hit the nail right on the bonce ..... that is exactly what I was trying to say, but you said it so much better lol I totally agree with whole whole meat trade/free range/veggi thing too! - Well Done! :smile:*


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

just like to add to this over the free range issue,just because something is shops own brand doesnt mean its been kept/slaughtered or packaged any differently to say marks and sparks,i know this to be true from my 1st delightful job in quality control in a chicken factory,so dont be fooled into thinking if this costs more it must be kept in better conditions because thats rarely the case youre just paying for the name,back on to the subject altho i expect youve told your mum this but captive bred means theyve no idea what the outside would is,theyve never experienced it and wouldnt survive it,pet shops will always trade because reps make money,infact if we all said ok no more it would only send the wc market into a frenzy as cb would faze out,so while cb is around they need some ppl to care for them so better its ppl with views like ours who do our best to give them all we can than someone who thinks they can liberate them with certain death to follow,its quite early for such words tho lol


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

i am a mr, yes, well i think so. 


i wasnt really refering to price, but the "bog standard" products, ie:normal price, and the cheap ones are USUALLY from battery/caged animals, and free range costs more. 

i have noticed that recently, after the bbc did a thing about chickens wealfare, the major brands have been removing the legs of their chickens, to stop people seeing the hock burns. (recently=last year sometime) 

whereas the more expencive alternative, _finest, extra special _and obviously free range still posess the lower limbs.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*LOL Good Morning Badgers Mum!!!!!!!!! Are you awake yet? hehehe ... yes I have explained the whole Captive Bred/Wild Caught thing to her but she is standing her ground on this one :roll: ...maybe I should let her read this thread :idea: BTW I think I can guess which famous chicken factory you might have worked in? (had I not lived so close to you I wouldn't have had a clue) lol*


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

yeah ive watched some truely awful programmes i actually meant that unless its labelled free range then its pretty much kept in the same conditions,ppl often think if i buy from m n s its quality meat,so maybe i got my wires crossed lol,trouble of both these views on here 1 person can never make a difference,and its not likely to change either


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> I dunno... I have to admit that, given the choice between having to 'fend for myself' in the real world - work, "hunt" for groceries, and risk losing my home and the material possessions I value if I fail - and having someone "keep" me in a caravan, make sure the larder's always stocked, make sure the heater's on, make sure the toilet works and make sure that there's at least SOME form of environmental enrichment (give me a piece of paper and a pencil and I'm set) .... the latter sounds bloody tempting.
> 
> Certainly the rise of people signing their freedom away voluntarily to become people's 'slaves' or 'pets' indicates that I can't possibly be the only one who would consider trading my freedom for security.
> 
> Besides, who says life has a 'purpose' anyway? Maybe my cat Newt sees her purpose as "Keep mum's chair warm when she's not in it, eat, crap, lie on the bed when mum's in her chair, pester for petting" ... in which case, captivity sure seems to suit her!


i can see what you are saying, most of us question our purose from time to time, but i cirtanly wouldnt be happy in the hypothetical situation, think about it, when you are on holiday from work, and at home, youusually get bored, and want to go back before the week is out. and at home you are free to do whatever. 

even thos signing their lives away for security have enrichment, they work, and in return they get said security would they be so keen if they were in solatary confinement. 

would you like to be locked in algatraz, in the 40's (i dont use todays prison, because they are far too soft) 23hours a day in your cell, 1 hour exercise. meals delivered through the cell door. pens are banned, dangerous. you might get a book if you are lucky. you can write one letter a week under supervision. you get mail once a week. 

wold you like that??


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

i see what you mean, and tbh i thought that mns used quality free range meats anyway, but i havent been in there for more than 2 years


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Breezy_One said:


> *LOL Good Morning Badgers Mum!!!!!!!!! Are you awake yet? hehehe ... yes I have explained the whole Captive Bred/Wild Caught thing to her but she is standing her ground on this one :roll: ...maybe I should let her read this thread :idea: BTW I think I can guess which famous chicken factory you might have worked in? (had I not lived so close to you I wouldn't have had a clue) lol*


mmmm the lovely harvest,my 1st job,didnt last long tho,yes been up ages even tho its half term,my neighbour has a pair of gsds that think i should be up at 7 lol,difficult situation with your mum im afraid she must take some comfort in knowing you keep your animals properly,maybe offer her a quick read it may not change her views but she may give the other side some thought :smile:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

tell your mum that ur a great keeper, and the animals are in fantasmigorical conditions/enviroments so she can go moan at some other BAD keeper rather that a goodun with pretty WD's
 
if she dont like it the slap her with a fish (free range, not tank one!)


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

and thanks for the rep whoever it was, i got an idea  
i want to give some to breezy, badgers mum and ssthisto, but it says i given out too much in the last 24  will try later .


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*Quickly to the chicken thingy, which also applies to the 'pet'/rep trade thingy too - not only can 1 person not make a difference, but a LOT of people wouldn't be able to make a difference either. If everyone agreed that they wouldn't eat meat for moral reasons, or have a household full of animals/reps for moral reasons, and it became a law, someone somewhere would change all that by smuggling and selling underground then it would be like the bootleg days, it would just be done underground and illegally and for all the wrong reasons - greed and for some people (the ones who transport/catch and sell WC) it would be the high of the chase/being caught. Can you imagine the cruelty and conditions hundreds of thousands of reps/animals would have to live under for long durations if it came to this? Now THAT would be morally wrong!*

*Quick question - What is it called when you choose your meat when it's alive and it's slaughtered for you on the spot then de-furred/de-feathered? I know it is done, I just don't know what it is called.*

*Also, can someone explain to me how to 'Quote' from someone elses thread? (A little off topic I know but I have tried it and it doesn't work lol)*


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*LMAO dan that was too funny ... and IT WAS ME IT WAS ME!!!! :Na_Na_Na_Na: I am sooooo letting her read this thread now, if for nothing else, so that she knows that I would consider slapping her with a free range wet fish :Na_Na_Na_Na: Sam ... what are your opening hours??? :lol2: BTW ... I did try looking for the harbour, but couldn't find it lol ..... the only place I know is the pier and one thing I do know about that pier is that their fish and chips prices are extortionate!  *


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

wil be open 2mora lol,the harbour is down the road next to the kings head pub, and im next to the harbour inn pub,i like pubs:smile: im afraid everything in southwold is massively priced,for the benefit of the holiday makers i think,but would certainly do my best at providing a fish lmao,your poor mum will be soooo cross at reading this,tell here we are just kidding,just pointing out youre a real good owner,she should be proud of the way you care for them,i bet she is really: victory:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*Every single one of us here are (quote) fantasmigorical (unquote) (love that word, if it is a word - but love it all the same lol) 'owners' .... the reason we are here is to seek and give advice to others regarding the care/wellbeing of our reps :smile: (well most of us anyway lol)*


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## serpentkid100 (Mar 7, 2006)

dtaylor21184 said:


> they have a short memory so how could they ever get bored thye would never realise they had nothing to do every few seconds and the enclosure would be brand new to them again.


fish dont have a short memory, they are incredibaly smart, i have trained my fish, there was a guy who trained his fish to feed itself, by touching targets, and you can train them to swim through things for food


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## dtaylor21184 (Dec 18, 2006)

serpentkid100 said:


> fish dont have a short memory, they are incredibaly smart, i have trained my fish, there was a guy who trained his fish to feed itself, by touching targets, and you can train them to swim through things for food


maybe so but but they aren't gonna get bored are they lets be honest


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

i read somwhere that a fish in a bolw will live on a avarage 2/5 years less that a fish in a tank, why, i belive depression, and bordom! 

basically, it has no enrichment in a bowl, would you like to live in a glass box, in the towm center?

i can see your point, but surely you cannot discount the live of a fish. they can feel pain, and IMO, they can feel metal pain. 

the only animals i doubt the ability to think, and be bored, are insects, such as crix, beetles, spiders etc. but even they expiriance fear, and stress, just watch them run frin the hungary rep :devil:


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

breezy, cheers for the rep btw, stil wont let me give any. (thought it was u, but didnt wanna guess case it was somone else and they got PO'ed at me  )

and cheers to the other person also, i really havent a clue who you are.
unless ur badgers mum, u cant be a guy, cos u left a kiss :shock: welll you could :shock:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*Are you saying guys can't leave kisses? lol*


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## darkdan99 (Dec 28, 2006)

the majority of guys wouldnt leave kisses for another guy! 
those tha would i'd like to meet


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

*LOL* :lol2: :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

oh yeah that was me x


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

darkdan99 said:


> i read somwhere that a fish in a bolw will live on a avarage 2/5 years less that a fish in a tank, why, i belive depression, and bordom!


I wouldn't be surprised if that is more likely down to water quality and muscle development. 

Most fish bowls are too small for the fish people commonly buy for them... for example, a fish bowl is totally unsuitable for most goldfish, who can grow from that little inch and a half fish to seven or more inches long. 

Is it any wonder that THAT would shorten their lives? Especially if most fish bowls aren't automatically equipped with filtration stuff to deal with the waste that a goldfish produces AND they quite often don't keep the cooler temperatures goldfish need?


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

i hate fish bowls fanct going round and round thats not naturalistic at all


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## dtaylor21184 (Dec 18, 2006)

he never said they were in a fish bowl in his orignal statment he said them so i assume he had a few and that they were in a tank, so i'd imagine it was done to look like a natural environment that is why i said how was it bored.


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