# Can you breed spiders from the same sac?



## Lukeyk (Mar 3, 2008)

does it work?


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

yea lol


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## hazza12 (Apr 16, 2009)

well yes but there is debate as to if its safe on the ofspring as for mutation as its inbreeding 

Harry


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

apparently its ok to breed from the same sac with p. metallica but its a bit up in the air about other sp it figures that its just an excuse not to fork out £90+ for a mm metallica every time, and anyway, who is to say some people arent already inbreeding with them anyway with people buying and selling all the time you mite end up with 2 from the same sac anyhow. i dont know who makes these rules of breeding up....
i have known of people use males from a sac to breed with their mum when they mature.
if your planning to do it expect a certain amount of creased eyebrows from some people and take into consideration that males are much faster growing than females and you will need to sex them as early as poss and keep the males slightly cooler and feed slightly less often than the females. within reason though, im not saying keep them in the garden and feed them quarterly :lol2: im sure others will come in with other info.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Tbh i think it should be avoided however with rarer species this sadly cant be.


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

dragon's den said:


> apparently its ok to breed from the same sac with p. metallica but its a bit up in the air about other sp it figures that its just an excuse not to fork out £90+ for a mm metallica every time, and anyway, who is to say some people arent already inbreeding with them anyway with people buying and selling all the time you mite end up with 2 from the same sac anyhow. i dont know who makes these rules of breeding up....
> i have known of people use males from a sac to breed with their mum when they mature.
> if your planning to do it expect a certain amount of creased eyebrows from some people and take into consideration that males are much faster growing than females and you will need to sex them as early as poss and keep the males slightly cooler and feed slightly less often than the females. within reason though, im not saying keep them in the garden and feed them quarterly :lol2: im sure others will come in with other info.


 and by breed them with their mum i diddnt mean the persons actual mum if it painted any disturbing pictures in anyones heads :lol2:


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## SpiderStore (May 25, 2011)

In my opinion you should avoid this option. The nature has its own "secure" methods for that, that's why normally males mature at least 1 years earlier than their sisters, and they are dead when the girls reach the AF status... maybe their mother too. I heard once that statement that the defective effect of the inbreed is growing with level of the evolution pyramid, that's why humans and other primates are so sensitive for this, but tell if I'm wrong.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

SpiderStore said:


> In my opinion you should avoid this option. The nature has its own "secure" methods for that, that's why normally males mature at least 1 years earlier than their sisters, and they are dead when the girls reach the AF status... maybe their mother too. I heard once that statement that the defective effect of the inbreed is growing with level of the evolution pyramid, that's why humans and other primates are so sensitive for this, but tell if I'm wrong.


Whether it's right or not I don't know but what you say stands to reason. The fact that males will wander to find mates as well would appear to back this up.

The only question I would ask is..... In the wild, how far would the dispersal of offspring be? Would they go far or stay close to where they hatched? If this is the case then a lot of the females in the vicinity may all be related anyway but given that wild males go from 6 to 18 months after maturing then they may well wander past the boundaries of where they originated thus avoiding any potential interaction with there own siblings and avoiding a limited gene pool. This is all total guess work on my part though


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

what's to stop wild caught specemins being slightly inbred?
where tarantula spiderlings don't float away they only tend to walk a small distance away from the mother.


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

I live with my sister and my Mum.

They are the same person.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

spinnin_tom said:


> what's to stop wild caught specemins being slightly inbred?
> where tarantula spiderlings don't float away they only tend to walk a small distance away from the mother.


Males don't. They wander far and wide. It is mainly females that don't go far but I would assume they go far enough not to encroach on each other. Nothing to say it doesn't happen however it is probably less prevalent in the wild tan what it could be in the hobby.

I don't think there are many species that are designed to deal with levels of inbreeding as it does cause long term issues. It happens in mammals in captivity, cats and dogs etc however when you watch wildlife programs the males tend to do one as soon as they are of age in most cases. Personally I wouldn't be happy to breeed sibling just going on what has been picked up after years of seeing what it can cause. If it can be avoided then avoid it, but if a wild caught specimen is a bit inbred then we would never know and the fact it is being potentially bred with new genes then it shouldn't really be an issue. From what I've seen it is a succession of inbred specimens that have issues. It may not show for a few generations.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Lucky Eddie said:


> I live with my sister and my Mum.
> 
> They are the same person.


It that how it is in Chelmsford (123AD) ?


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

kris74 said:


> It that how it is in Chelmsford (123AD) ?


Yep, we dont get out much.

You are considered to be marrying outside the family if you live with your cousin!


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

hazza12 said:


> well yes but there is debate as to if its safe on the ofspring as for mutation as its inbreeding
> 
> Harry


Inbreeding doesn't work that way. It doesn't cause mutations, it just increases the likelihood that existing deleterious mutations manifest.

To add to that, there's a greater likelihood that you'll end up with things like two identical copies of the same disease/parasite resistance genes, instead of a nice mixture (conferring greater immunity to threats).



dragon's den said:


> apparently its ok to breed from the same sac with p. metallica but its a bit up in the air about other sp it figures that its just an excuse not to fork out £90+ for a mm metallica every time, and anyway, who is to say some people arent already inbreeding with them anyway with people buying and selling all the time you mite end up with 2 from the same sac anyhow. i dont know who makes these rules of breeding up....
> i have known of people use males from a sac to breed with their mum when they mature.
> if your planning to do it expect a certain amount of creased eyebrows from some people and take into consideration that males are much faster growing than females and you will need to sex them as early as poss and keep the males slightly cooler and feed slightly less often than the females. within reason though, im not saying keep them in the garden and feed them quarterly :lol2: im sure others will come in with other info.


Pretty sure there's no rules saying "lol, inbreeding metallicas is fine".



dragon's den said:


> and by breed them with their mum i diddnt mean the persons actual mum if it painted any disturbing pictures in anyones heads :lol2:


French AIDS awareness advert anyone?



SpiderStore said:


> In my opinion you should avoid this option. The nature has its own "secure" methods for that, that's why normally males mature at least 1 years earlier than their sisters, and they are dead when the girls reach the AF status... maybe their mother too. I heard once that statement that the defective effect of the inbreed is growing with level of the evolution pyramid, that's why humans and other primates are so sensitive for this, but tell if I'm wrong.


No offence but: evolutionary pyramid? What?

Humans are somewhat at risk from it, but that's probably because we're pretty inbred already... we went through a massive population bottle-neck a while ago, meaning we're all pretty closely related.

Even then, turns out you're usually safe mating cousins together in humans, it takes several generations of constantly marrying cousins for nasty effects to start catching up with you.

However, spiders _do_ suffer a reduction in fitness from repeated inbreeding, as seen in the semi-social therridayblerdyblah spiders (can't be bothered looking it up) who show reduced fitness towards the end of the social stage, which includes repeated sibling-sibling and son-mother mating. They alternate between a number of generations communal followed by a non-social stage.



kris74 said:


> Whether it's right or not I don't know but what you say stands to reason. The fact that males will wander to find mates as well would appear to back this up.
> 
> The only question I would ask is..... In the wild, how far would the dispersal of offspring be? Would they go far or stay close to where they hatched? If this is the case then a lot of the females in the vicinity may all be related anyway but given that wild males go from 6 to 18 months after maturing then they may well wander past the boundaries of where they originated thus avoiding any potential interaction with there own siblings and avoiding a limited gene pool. This is all total guess work on my part though


Last time this was brought up I found a paper on distances travelled by mature male _Aphonopelma sp._, one of them went well over a kilometre away from his home burrow. Many went less far, but males will ensure some gene-flow between neighbouring communities.



spinnin_tom said:


> what's to stop wild caught specemins being slightly inbred?
> where tarantula spiderlings don't float away they only tend to walk a small distance away from the mother.


I think slings probably disperse a fair distance, don't want to end up competing with dear old mum, who may well have another 10 years left. Once they settle, sure most never leave that point, but still.



Lucky Eddie said:


> I live with my sister and my Mum.
> 
> They are the same person.


Bob's your uncle, and your dad.


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## Danhalen (Jun 6, 2008)

I think people are quite naive as to the likeliness that specimens hailing from captive bred stock are most probably directly related in one way or another.


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

Danhalen said:


> I think people are quite naive as to the likeliness that specimens hailing from captive bred stock are most probably directly related in one way or another.


You will never know, because there is no pedigree book.

I am bad at recording my sources, my sales, my matings etc.

If someone sold me back a spider that I had bred, I would never know.


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

i''ve just finished reading ''the tarantula, W.J. Baerg'' he mentions that a lot of central/north american species go about their business, within feet of each other, he mentions no effects of inbreeding, in fact he does not mention it at all.
but he does state, what has already been said here, some males travel kilometers, just to find a mate, whereas others travel mere feet, to find that special someone.
there is bound to be a degree of inbreeding of any species, but it's the affects in the long term, which are noticeable. i personally don't think there will be serious problems mating siblings, once.. it's the ethical values you need to consider


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## SpiderStore (May 25, 2011)

Hedgewitch said:


> No offence but: evolutionary pyramid? What?
> 
> Humans are somewhat at risk from it, but that's probably because we're pretty inbred already... we went through a massive population bottle-neck a while ago, meaning we're all pretty closely related.
> 
> ...


Excuse me, my english isn't perfect, I mean the levels of the evolution, primates, mammals, etc. the lower level the animal takes place its lower the likelihood of degeneration in the direct offspring.

Whatever, I think the rule is: If you can than avoid that option.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

SpiderStore said:


> Excuse me, my english isn't perfect, I mean the levels of the evolution, primates, mammals, etc. the lower level the animal takes place its lower the likelihood of degeneration in the direct offspring.
> 
> Whatever, I think the rule is: If you can than avoid that option.


Oh I see, and sorry, I forgot you were Hungary based.

Either way, evolution doesn't work that way, but ok.


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## dragon's den (Oct 6, 2010)

Lucky Eddie said:


> I live with my sister and my Mum.
> 
> They are the same person.


saves money on mothers day :lol2: ftw


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

We see loads of issues with our tarantula: wet/bad moults, infertile sacs, phantom sacs, DKS and various other titles. 
Are we likely to find the cause of these? Unlikely IMO as it would require a long study.
Can we avoid "the possibles". Yes.
Do I believe its wrong to breed direct with siblings? Yes
Do I avoid it? Yes
Would I avoid it if the hobby species was rare? No

For my own breeding I tend to miss a generation.

Quite often when we see rare species enter the hobby a number of males and females are taken. The liklihood of these being from the same sac is small, but the gene pool is probably small too. It therefore doesnt make sense to reduce this gene pool further.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Phantom sacs are an issue?


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

Hedgewitch said:


> Phantom sacs are an issue?


what's one of those?
sounds like an sti


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

When a female who's not been mated produces an egg sac.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Hedgewitch said:


> Phantom sacs are an issue?


If you don't have an explanation then its an issue surely? 
I'm not saying its related to breeding, but its an example of unknown issues.
I think the word Im looking for is Precaution.


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## Hedgewitch (Feb 12, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> If you don't have an explanation then its an issue surely?
> I'm not saying its related to breeding, but its an example of unknown issues.
> I think the word Im looking for is Precaution.


Ah right, when you say issues I think negative things. Makes more sense there.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

spinnin_tom said:


> i''ve just finished reading ''the tarantula, *W.J. Baerg*'' he mentions that a lot of central/north american species go about their business, within feet of each other, he mentions no effects of inbreeding, *in fact he does not mention it at all*.
> but he does state, what has already been said here, some males travel kilometers, just to find a mate, whereas others travel mere feet, to find that special someone.
> there is bound to be a degree of inbreeding of any species, but it's the affects in the long term, which are noticeable. i personally don't think there will be serious problems mating siblings, once.. it's the ethical values you need to consider


This had me thinking, as Im reading the same book.
p37-38: "Nature has provided many of the insects and other animals with ways and means to prevent inbreeding."


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

The transition to social inbred mating systems in ... [Evolution. 2005] - PubMed result

ok just an example and there are many many more out there that support this and just as many more to counter it.

problem we have is that it is very hard to pin down any defects, deaths etc etc to have been caused due to inbreeding, and to even start we would have be looking at the genes and looking for all those represive ones and the like, so I guess not an easy thing to do and on top of that I bet it gets a little pricey.

so is there any point trying to avoid this? nah not really, Half the time you go all out to find what you think is an unrelated male, only unbeknown to you its from some breeding you did with the same female that you plan to breed now! only you think it can't be because it came from some guy in france. Honestly you would be very supprised how far you old cb off spring travel these days in the ways of swaps/resold/or just given away as a freebee.

should you even worry about this? nah why worry about anything you you really have hardly any control over? best to put more effort in how you are keeping them in the first place.

This is after all why spiders have so many offspring sure some get eaten by other animals, some die of horendous chain saw accident some die of some inbred buck tooth syndrome, and others commit seppuku just to anoy their owners, but one or two will not be effected by some bad recessive gene and go on to mate with their brothers, sisters, mums, grans and the rest of the family clan. No they are not immune from inbreeding at all no life is, this is a basic gentic rule, but they can and do tollerate it enough so as make sure the species can survive.

Basicly its a numbers game, the more offspring you have the more chance you have of having offspring that don't carry the regressive gene or at least something like that.

Funny thing is that it has often been found and said that there has been more mating and breeding success between related kin rather than unrelated kin.


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## kim1973 (Jan 19, 2010)

Poxicator said:


> If you don't have an explanation then its an issue surely?
> I'm not saying its related to breeding, but its an example of unknown issues.
> I think the word Im looking for is Precaution.


 
adding to this yes is an very very sad issue for me. have a.gen big female i have had since first moult now 15 years old was told to breed her but i have not as she 15 and my oldest t and did not want to risk her just web up her tub and yesterday found her with the biggest egg sack now i wish i mated her all very sad


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