# Not another hybrid thread...



## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Not really what you're thinking....!

I've been thinking about this for a while as I was contemplating branching out in to reptiles at some point. Looking in the herp section from time to time you see loads of hybridised snakes and lizards, some of which have genuine issues like the tick on ball pythons etc. This got me thinking about the fact that for the most part we as spider keepers tend to frown on cross breeding and hybridising and with very good reason. Purity of blood lines and not introducing potential physical issues.

Why do you reckon it is so readily accepted in the reptile hobby when it has proven to cause definite issues and a strain of animals that would never be found in the wild. Is it really just about the pretty colours cross breeding produces?

I personally don't agree with it and if I was to go in for a crestie or a snake I would buy one that is in its pure form. 

What's your view on this (if you have any)?


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## stevemet (Dec 29, 2011)

Are these morphs really hybrids in the sense of two distinct species being crossed or is it more a case of mothers breeding with sons etc?
Either way I am with you on this one. I would rather have a genuine wild coloured specimen than some of the hybrids you describe....more of a hybridisation of art and science. It has taken a royal python hundreds of millions of years to get to the optimum colour for survival and we can change that in a few generations. I hope there is never a Kennel Club equivalent for reptiles when you see the torture they have inflicted on dogs.
No disrespect to the breeders who have pushed the boundaries of animal husbandry so far over the last few years, I just prefer wild coloured.


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## martin3 (May 24, 2011)

I'v kept a few snakes & lizards over the years, & would say that i only keep natural strains of what ever it is im keeping, but yes i agree with you on the point of why! there is such a big thing about colour morphs in the reptile side of things, why? just a case of ''look how pretty'' this is,& look what you get when you cross this with this,must play havoc with the gene pool,& i for one can see no good coming from it. have you seen the state of the poor rat snakes you see in the shops? not one thing or another.


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

firtsly - love this topic its awesome I imagine cross bred herps giving birth to antelope... for some strange reason!:blush:

I always visualised that the wider the gene pool the higher the potential for diversity for better or for worse. obviously the search engine has a whole symposium of hybridising t's! 

I think more obvious facts can offer better light - for instance the incapacity to amalgamate into new ecosystems and the often fatal consequences of entering into an antipodal environment, point being that if t's got around the globe more, maybe they could get around more so to speak... 

you wouldn't get it on with a gibbon, i shouldn't expect. i believe that that is because we are exceptionally successful - not because gibbons are unattractive (!) - am i an idiot - probably, but certainly not a scientist, though i concede that a human could never mate with an earwig (so that rules creationism out) :lol2:


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## geckodelta (Dec 11, 2008)

I generally go for 'pure' animals, I'm not a fan of hybrids really, in any form.. reptile or otherwise. Id prefer to spend my money on something that won't have potential added health problems etc
Callum


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## martin3 (May 24, 2011)

gambitgareth said:


> firtsly - love this topic its awesome I imagine cross bred herps giving birth to antelope... for some strange reason!:blush:
> 
> I always visualised that the wider the gene pool the higher the potential for diversity for better or for worse. obviously the search engine has a whole symposium of hybridising t's!
> 
> ...


DUDE!!!..Antipodal environment? had to look that one up!:lol2:


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

haha - well since were going there - rat snakes in my mind means half rat half snake :lol2:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Forgive them for they know not what they do


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## spinnin_tom (Apr 20, 2011)

it seems reptile keepers (to an extent) accept or don't care about the ethics of hybrids. for example, i got in an argument with somebdy who didn't like my opinion that they had a hybrid carpet python tw subspecies parents.

morphs are way different, it's just focusing on breeding nicer looking things, patterns, colours whatever.

spiders and inverts, on the other hand.. i think a lot of you invert keepers like pure animals, as hybrid spiders and the like look horrible in my opinion


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## Bagger293 (Jun 8, 2011)

A baboon _is_ and attractive animal :lol2:


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> Forgive them for they know not what they do


Sorry..misread that. I thought it said 'forget them'!

I really shouldn't get started on this subject because it makes me soooooooo mad.

The reptile fraternity (or should I say some of them so as not to tar them all with the same brush) are just in it for the big bucks.

Its the same as the birding crowd years ago.......hybridising British finches, colour morphing canaries, lovebirds, budgies, parrots until they are so far removed from the wild type that they are unrecognisable.
Then the import gates shut and you are left with a collapsing wirlpool of a cess pit of a gene pool.

Keep species pure!


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

*reply*

l think there are two different issues with this that people get mixed up on,when people talk about (hybrid)what there really talking about is (intergrades)So far there has not been that much( hybridisation)with snakes,but there is a lot of intergades in the hobby,most of it is unintended and not know by the hobbist,l can guaranty that every one of us has intergades in are collections and we do not know,but intergades naturally happen in the wild state where the species overlap.
it is not known if Hybrids happen in the wild,but l think that the future of captive Herpetological keeping will polarise between hobbist returning to pure species forms and lines,and other hobbist wanting and trying through Hybrids to (create)new types of ( species )l say this loosely but l think you get my driff'd
New types of python cross' to make a new breedable lines,corn cross king'milk' and so on


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

stevenrudge said:


> l think there are two different issues with this that people get mixed up on,when people talk about (hybrid)what there really talking about is (intergrades)So far there has not been that much( hybridisation)with snakes,but there is a lot of intergades in the hobby,most of it is unintended and not know by the hobbist,l can guaranty that every one of us has intergades in are collections and we do not know,but intergades naturally happen in the wild state where the species overlap.
> it is not known if Hybrids happen in the wild,but l think that the future of captive Herpetological keeping will polarise between hobbist returning to pure species forms and lines,and other hobbist wanting and trying through Hybrids to (create)new types of ( species )l say this loosely but l think you get my driff'd
> New types of python cross' to make a new breedable lines,corn cross king'milk' and so on


That sounds like a cop out to me.

Please define 'intergrade'. Maybe give us a few examples with the scientific nomenclature?


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

Lucky Eddie said:


> That sounds like a cop out to me.
> 
> Please define 'intergrade'. Maybe give us a few examples with the scientific nomenclature?


Mate its not a (cop out)and to be honest l'm in the pure camp!if you check any American rep field guide whitch shows each state and lets say the rat or corn range it will show you the overlaping area where you would find intergades,plus in the 70's and early 80's when l worked at a big reptile importer,back then everything was W/C and we would get batches of corns that where clearly Corn / Rat snake intergades,


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

It doesn't explain intergrade to me.

I am familiar with the terms sub species and races.


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

semantically - its just a synonym - so were eagerly awaiting the metaphysical significance of that word over hybrid.... 

Here's a quote from one of my favourite philosophers while we wait: 

"Some things are believed because people feel as if they must be true, and in such cases an immense weight of evi*dence is necessary to dispel the belief." - Bertrand Russell in "The Impact of Science on Society" (1951), Chapter 1: "Science and Tradition"

what a leg end.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Intergrades are evolutionary steps a species takes to fit in to a geographical niche as it's range expands. A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I etc
At some point the 'intergrades' die out for one reason or another, becoming A----------I and the two variants at either end evolve independently of each other and become separate species over hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of years so becoming A+ ---------- I+

the intergrades are the variants between A and I, but still the same species.
once the variant links die out and the two end variants evolve isolated, each become distinct in their own right.


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

Lucky Eddie said:


> It doesn't explain intergrade to me.
> 
> I am familiar with the terms sub species and races.


Hello Richard well to us an intergrade is a crossing of closely related species or sub species, take the corn snakes there are lots of locals types but it is one species,Rat snakes,l'm talking about North American,there are a different species that will inter breed with each other and with Corns where they overlap,in the older field guides and Herp books there use to be more Sub species of corns and Rat snakes but more resent investigation has shown that they are nothing more than local intergades


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

stevenrudge said:


> Hello Richard well to us an intergrade is a crossing of closely related species or sub species, take the corn snakes there are lots of locals types but it is one species,Rat snakes,l'm talking about North American,there are a different species that will inter breed with each other and with Corns where they overlap,in the older field guides and Herp books there use to be more Sub species of corns and Rat snakes but more resent investigation has shown that they are nothing more than local intergades


I understand the point you're making here and I understand that a level of this is going to happen in the wild and appreciate your taking the time to explain it dude, cheers. My point being why is it more prevalent in the snake and rep hobby and why are snake and reptile keepers so much more tolerant to it?

I don't know a massive amount about this (or even a small amount) hence why the question may seem a bit black and white. Spinnin Tom added earlier that there is a difference between hybridising and colour morphs. I'll assume that colour morphs are more selective breeding than hybridising, is that right?

I asked this question in either the snake or lizard section and was met with a black silence and not one answer. Whether it is a sensitive topic to them or it is viewed with the same amount of tiredness as the old "why isn't my chile rose not eating" that we see as spider enthusiasts I just don't know but I'm interested to find out.

Just one last note though. I know it's a sensitive topic at best and there are some strong opinions, I don't want this to turn in to a massive argument the way most hybrid threads do. Just some nice light hearted discussion will suffice 

Cheers


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

stevenrudge said:


> Hello Richard well to us an intergrade is a crossing of closely related species or sub species, take the corn snakes there are lots of locals types but it is one species,Rat snakes,l'm talking about North American,there are a different species that will inter breed with each other and with Corns where they overlap,in the older field guides and Herp books there use to be more Sub species of corns and Rat snakes but more resent investigation has shown that they are nothing more than local intergades


Thanks for that. I didn't want to come over as dense (I have a degree in Zoology from the seventies when Darwin was King), I just genuinely hadn't heard the term.

I know this happens...............it probably explains why there are so many subtle yet distinct variations among the Aphonopelma sp. All it does is 'fog' the definition of a species, and therefore the definition of hybridisation!


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

kris74 said:


> I understand the point you're making here and I understand that a level of this is going to happen in the wild and appreciate your taking the time to explain it dude, cheers. My point being why is it more prevalent in the snake and rep hobby and why are snake and reptile keepers so much more tolerant to it?
> 
> I don't know a massive amount about this (or even a small amount) hence why the question may seem a bit black and white. Spinnin Tom added earlier that there is a difference between hybridising and colour morphs. I'll assume that colour morphs are more selective breeding than hybridising, is that right?
> 
> ...


To be honest l've found the same thing,and l hate to say this but its out of ignorance,and the pack instinct meaning that people in this Nett/Webb age know everything but actually know little and are frightened to stand out,on theses forums l've had lots of discussions( arguments) with hobbist talking and give crap advice,and when challenged you find the (pack)move in with there old second hand opinions all liking their own silly replys,but to your main point is ignorance and lack of care,colour morphing is selective breeding.
Ps its nice to have constructive discussions for a change


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

stevenrudge said:


> Ps its nice to have constructive discussions for a change


Dont say that. It will rapidly go downhill once the kids get in from school!


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

Lucky Eddie said:


> Dont say that. It will rapidly go downhill once the kids get in from school!


You know what,your died wright!the amount of times l've been talking on these forums and l've wanted to stop and ask their age!


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

stevenrudge said:


> To be honest l've found the same thing,and l hate to say this but its out of ignorance,and the pack instinct meaning that people in this Nett/Webb age know everything but actually know little and are frightened to stand out,on theses forums l've had lots of discussions( arguments) with hobbist talking and give crap advice,and when challenged you find the (pack)move in with there old second hand opinions all liking their own silly replys,but to your main point is ignorance and lack of care,*colour morphing is selective breeding.*
> Ps its nice to have constructive discussions for a change
> Indeed it is mate


So if colour morphing is selective breeding then it would never have any serious consequences on the animals health then, It really is just a different colour strain and nothing more?

If that's the case then that's fair enough.

What about the genetic tic that ball pythons get that makes them go all wobbly then? Is that caused through hybridising and if so then how is it allowed to go on? A similar thing could be looking at bulldogs. Bulldogs are such a screwed up breed that they A) Need surgery to breath and B) they have to give birth by C section, neither of which is natural for any animal. It astounds me that people can actually find an argument to justify their points on these to carry on the breeds. I think personally it's fair to say that some breeds should be left to die out.

I think even in this hobby there will be people who will scream blue murder at the thought of hybridising spiders however they will buy other crossed animals and only recently some idiot came on here after trying to mate a G.rosea and a L.klugi then said it was his mate. Needless to say he is now shunned for that and another issue!


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

kris74 said:


> So if colour morphing is selective breeding then it would never have any serious consequences on the animals health then, It really is just a different colour strain and nothing more?


In theory yes. There are some colour morphs that exist because they have been discovered in the wild and not discovered by breeding. In reality they are just as 'natural' as a 'normal'. 




kris74 said:


> What about the genetic tic that ball pythons get that makes them go all wobbly then? Is that caused through hybridising and if so then how is it allowed to go on?


As far as I am aware there is nothing to explain how or why it is intrinsicaly linked with the colour morph. However there are morphs that are more prone to neurological issues. 

A lot of colour morphs are rescessive genes, IMO they are recessive for a reason and should be left that way. Crossing resesive gene with resesive gene ad naseum is just asking for trouble. 

How is it allowed to go on... people still buy them. Thats why.


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

kris74 said:


> So if colour morphing is selective breeding then it would never have any serious consequences on the animals health then, It really is just a different colour strain and nothing more?
> 
> If that's the case then that's fair enough.
> 
> ...


your wright about some of the morphs and l totally agree that where shown to be messing with recessive genetics is or can be harmful should not be aloud,but this is where the mighty $-£ comes into play mixed with fashion and ignorance and people putting a living commodity above their duty of care and the animals welfare ,sad but true,as for what you say about the British Bull dog,you can say for many of the dog breeds,they have turned into Caricatures of the breeds they where meant be be,just look at some of the breed books from a 100 years ago,and compare them to the breeds now,the Bull dog and the staff'bull terriers look more like the American Pit bull,and before anyone starts to have a go,this is not just my opinion,just have a look at the original breed books or the history of these breeds


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Lord Vetinari said:


> In theory yes. There are some colour morphs that exist because they have been discovered in the wild and not discovered by breeding. In reality they are just as 'natural' as a 'normal'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a fair comment man..

What about that snake in your sig? Where would that fit in? 

I'm going to look at this in depth on the back of this thread but it's nice to get some straight answers on it from people who are hands on in the hobby.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

kris74 said:


> That's a fair comment man..
> 
> What about that snake in your sig? Where would that fit in?
> 
> I'm going to look at this in depth on the back of this thread but it's nice to get some straight answers on it from people who are hands on in the hobby.


That is a 'normal' western hognose. The sig is made to look a little redder then natural, but the colours aren't that far off. 

You can however get red phase ones that are very similar, but they currently doen't appear to be a breedable gentetic trait.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

stevenrudge said:


> your wright about some of the morphs and l totally agree that where shown to be messing with recessive genetics is or can be harmful should not be aloud,but this is where the mighty $-£ comes into play mixed with fashion and ignorance and people putting a living commodity above their duty of care and the animals welfare ,sad but true,as for what you say about the British Bull dog,you can say for many of the dog breeds,they have turned into Caricatures of the breeds they where meant be be,just look at some of the breed books from a 100 years ago,and compare them to the breeds now,the Bull dog and the staff'bull terriers look more like the American Pit bull,and before anyone starts to have a go,this is not just my opinion,just have a look at the original breed books or the history of these breeds


I know what you mean with older breeds and how they were years ago. I think with Staffs in particular there are now so many of them due to many many idiots wanting them that everything was bred and this included dogs that normally wouldn't have been selected to be bred due to them not meeting the standard and we now see some pretty poor examples of these. Couple that with the fact some ones Jack Russle has probably had an influence somewhere down the line as well makes for some pretty depressing looking dags. This is why you will still pay a lot of money for a decent KC registered Staffy as opposed to buying one from some git on the estate somewhere. I've seen this 1st hand with little female with tiny heads and queer shaped bodies pumping out litter after litter but that's a different argument altogether.

Not entirely sure I'd ever get in to pedigree animals for this reason. Just look at Alsations and Labrador dogs. They have issue with their back ends quite frequently which can't be right. I think with these though it is always best to remember that these breeds came around when ethics would never really have came in to breeding as most of them were bred to be like that back in the 1800s.

In this more modern age of understanding it is much easier to apply ethics to hobbies such as the ones we are involved in.... God I'm starting to sound like MrMister and I haven't even started smoking yet..

(no offence MrMister)!!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Selective breeding is what I perceive much of the hobbyist confuses with hybridising.
It is a part of animal husbandry that selects particular characteristics of an animal to breed and achieve certain aspects, whether that be colour, bulk, size etc.
In the snake world, and we see it in other areas eg. fish, attaining a colour morph is acceptable and condoned. The colours achieved are quite amazing but obviously would be to the disadvantage of the snake/fish etc in the wild.
Then some of these people arrive in the invert section and believe the same is acceptable. The problem is we're not dealing with selective breeding but hybridisation. And, the hybridisation isnt to achieve a better looking invert but a mixture of both, often duller.
We've seen this numerous times and therefore we have a tendancy to deflate ourselves just by reading it, "oh hear we go again" and our replies are often "its been discussed before". Not exactly the best response, but natural in the circumstances, and IMO both the poster and replier can be at fault


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Poxicator said:


> Selective breeding is what I perceive much of the hobbyist confuses with hybridising.
> It is a part of animal husbandry that selects particular characteristics of an animal to breed and achieve certain aspects, whether that be colour, bulk, size etc.
> In the snake world, and we see it in other areas eg. fish, attaining a colour morph is acceptable and condoned. The colours achieved are quite amazing but obviously would be to the disadvantage of the snake/fish etc in the wild.
> Then some of these people arrive in the invert section and believe the same is acceptable. The problem is we're not dealing with selective breeding but hybridisation. And, the hybridisation isnt to achieve a better looking invert but a mixture of both, often duller.
> We've seen this numerous times and therefore we have a tendancy to deflate ourselves just by reading it, "oh hear we go again" and our replies are often "its been discussed before". Not exactly the best response, but natural in the circumstances, and IMO both the poster and replier can be at fault


I'm definitely guilty of not being aware of the differences of both and lumping it all together as hybridising which is wrong hence this post. I really want to get in to cresties and this has been the main factor that stopped me as I just didn't understand the differences and thought it best to just leave the whole thing well alone until I did. Tried asking a sensible question in the right section and got nowhere with it so..


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

I love these threads because they are full of statements like "It is wrong", It shouldn't be done" etc etc etc as if there are rules to what you should or should not be interested in or do in this hobby. You really get to see how nice the people are who are in it, when they start to diss the unfortunely small number who ever show an interest for this side of the hobby. I'm dam sure more would show an interest if these attitudes were not the case, even though best of all, half the dissers don't even look better at the spiders they themselfs own!
Where are all the photos of these so call dull looking hybrids? Are they any duller looking than a brown Chilobrachys? Does it even matter that some are duller looking than the parents (which is not always the case btw different looking but not duller) and besides is beauty not in the eye of the beholder any more when itcomes to these?

This is just another aspect to this hobby.

If you want to try and hybridize then go ahead and knock yourself out. There is no good reason why you should not try if you wish to try. I would just advise that if you try then keep within genus as you will have more chance of success then ,even then read up on which species are more likely to be more related to the other, or it may just prove to be a waste of time.
AND BE CAREFULL OF THE SPIDER HYBRID POLICE!


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Baldpoodle said:


> I love these threads because they are full of statements like "It is wrong", It shouldn't be done" etc etc etc as if there are rules to what you should or should not be interested in or do in this hobby. You really get to see how nice the people are who are in it, when they start to diss the unfortunely small number who ever show an interest for this side of the hobby. I'm dam sure more would show an interest if these attitudes were not the case, even though best of all, half the dissers don't even look better at the spiders they themselfs own!
> Where are all the photos of these so call dull looking hybrids? Are they any duller looking than a brown Chilobrachys? Does it even matter that some are duller looking than the parents (which is not always the case btw different looking but not duller) and besides is beauty not in the eye of the beholder any more when itcomes to these?
> 
> This is just another aspect to this hobby.
> ...


It's just one of those things, some agree and some don't. The thread wasn't about whether we should or not. It's really about understanding it a bit more through others experiences.


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## MaskFac3 (Dec 2, 2011)

Colour morphs are different as they are caused by defective genes causing Different pigmentation - they happen in the wild and most morphs in something like a leopard gecko or a corn snake are wc then bred until the desired colours are produced breeding different SPECIES is a different matter.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

kris74 said:


> It's just one of those things, some agree and some don't. The thread wasn't about whether we should or not. It's really about understanding it a bit more through others experiences.


you say this but if you read though the replies they are full of shouldn'ts often based on, I very much suspect zero experince with them apart from what someone said on the grape vine. I say zero experince but that is off course not entirely true as peoples collections will say otherwise......cb avics, cb hystercrates, cb phambos, cb brachy red rumps, cb black haplopelma, cb brown chilobrachys etc etc etc. Off course not all are hybrids most I suspect not but as the majority of people can't tell one from the other with 50% certainty let alone 100% certainty, there is no doubt in my mine hybrids are out there guiseing as species anyway, and the main reason for this is I suspect that people are scared to sell any hybrids they my have as hybrids because of the stupid stigma they have, put about by the hear say.
But in this world it is not just hybrids that anoy the upper class rodney spider keepers as I like to sometimes call them, they are the same with mixing colour forms too. See the responce if you breed P. murinus rcf with tcf and post on a forum.
There is nothing wrong with people striving to keep their species pure and with just a little thought it can be done quite easy, but there is also nothing wrong with those hybrids either, so if you don't want to dable don't, just don't put those who do down based on hear say crap.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> you say this but if you read though the replies they are full of shouldn'ts often based on, I very much suspect zero experince with them apart from what someone said on the grape vine. I say zero experince but that is off course not entirely true as peoples collections will say otherwise......cb avics, cb hystercrates, cb phambos, cb brachy red rumps, cb black haplopelma, cb brown chilobrachys etc etc etc. Off course not all are hybrids most I suspect not but as the majority of people can't tell one from the other with 50% certainty let alone 100% certainty, there is no doubt in my mine hybrids are out there guiseing as species anyway, and the main reason for this is I suspect that people are scared to sell any hybrids they my have as hybrids because of the stupid stigma they have, put about by the hear say.
> But in this world it is not just hybrids that anoy the upper class rodney spider keepers as I like to sometimes call them, they are the same with mixing colour forms too. See the responce if you breed P. murinus rcf with tcf and post on a forum.
> There is nothing wrong with people striving to keep their species pure and with just a little thought it can be done quite easy, but there is also nothing wrong with those hybrids either, so if you don't want to dable don't, just don't put those who do down based on hear say crap.


i sense anger and frustration in the wording disguised as debate within you padowan :lol2:

just remember, just as you have your right to your say so do others when they say they dont agree with you, no matter what their reason  and they dont deserve the hostility put forward by yourself should they feel the need to oppose your 'opinion' no matter what their experience. :2thumb:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> i sense anger and frustration in the wording disguised as debate within you padowan :lol2:
> 
> just remember, just as you have your right to your say so do others when they say they dont agree with you, no matter what their reason  and they dont deserve the hostility put forward by yourself should they feel the need to oppose your 'opinion' no matter what their experience. :2thumb:


be wary of your sences, betray you they do.

No hostility intended and like wise on the don't deserve the hostility!


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Im sure we've been here before BP. And save for echoing what Steve said I think its not worth repeating my opinions. 
However, I'm sure we could all gain far more insight if, instead of slaying the argument with the "upper class rodney spider keepers" you actually for once provided your experience with hybrids. Just so we don't think that you too have "zero experince" and rely on "hear say crap".


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> Im sure we've been here before BP. And save for echoing what Steve said I think its not worth repeating my opinions.
> However, I'm sure we could all gain far more insight if, instead of slaying the argument with the "upper class rodney spider keepers" you actually for once provided your experience with hybrids. Just so we don't think that you too have "zero experince" and rely on "hear say crap".


yep probably have been here before and its always worth repeating oppinions otherwise it will look as if there is only one accepted one.

who says I have experince with them? Maybe I have zero experince them too but just don't decied to ride on the shoulders of other people oppinions. All I can say that the dullness comments are not nessary true going by specimens and photos I have seen of hybrid red leg brachypelma spp.
you can see some in this book
Vogelspinnen im Terrarium. Lebensweise, Haltung und Zucht: Amazon.co.uk: Peter Klaas: 9783800179336: Books
they look quite interesting IMO but as they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
hybrid Pocilotheria I have seen also do not look much if any duller than normal either but then I have only ever seen regalis X fasiata cross which are more or less the same anyway!
cambridgei x irminia dont look that great but I do not doubt there is someone out there who may find them nice looking. 
Still yet to see a good valid reason why not to have them or try to breed them though.
So this is my experince if you call seeing them in the flesh can be call such.


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

Confused. :/ hybirdizing is totally different to a colour morph :/


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

kris74 said:


> Not really what you're thinking....!
> 
> I've been thinking about this for a while as I was contemplating branching out in to reptiles at some point. Looking in the herp section from time to time you see loads of hybridised snakes and lizards, some of which have genuine issues like the tick on ball pythons etc. This got me thinking about the fact that for the most part we as spider keepers tend to frown on cross breeding and hybridising and with very good reason. Purity of blood lines and not introducing potential physical issues.
> 
> ...


Because people are curious, and engineer nature, to suit.

How do you think a poodle got to look like how it did?

Can you imagine it taking down an Elk?


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

i find myself agreeing with bald poodle - no harm no foul - and liberty is the most important thing that should be protected - especially when there is no harm - no harm - is contentious because people feel dismayed at the potential for attack on the hobby - i appreciate this and somewhat agree - but its not like the t's are hypnotised or exploited into mating with the other species - and so perhaps the stigma is unfair on these people.

on poodles and elks - no i couldnt imagine that! but nature is full of strange creatures - and if we arent the creator - how can we ever fully understand a things use.

p.s white flag held high :lol2:


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## Lucky Eddie (Oct 7, 2009)

Mr Mister said:


> Can you imagine 'a poodle' taking down an Elk?


A toy poodle?

No, I never thought of that, but now I just did.

And now ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

especially if it creeps up and then does a backflip...


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

gambitgareth said:


> ...its not like the t's are hypnotised or exploited into mating with the other species


Agreed. They're just put into an enclosure with another species that might be 100's or even 1000's of miles apart in the wild. Quite natural eh!


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

yea but havent you heard of thai brides:lol2:


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

I think the only reason to hypbridise is for "look at me and what i've done" status.


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr Mister said:


> Because people are curious, and engineer nature, to suit.
> 
> How do you think a poodle got to look like how it did?
> 
> Can you imagine it taking down an Elk?


l agree with what you say about liberty and people being curious,but there are bigger issues with this,if we find that through selective breeding animals whether they are Reptiles,Dog,Fish,whatever,we course the said animal physical harm example some of the Ball pythons,Carpet pythons,morphs then we have a duty of care not to pursue these lines.
As regards (engineering nature)to suit truth is we cannot,sure we manipulate some easy breeding lines of some animals and plants,but we are not engineering nature.
Any Engineer in any field can re-engineer a design fault and upgrade current designs.
We deal with living animals that we cannot re-design faults out that we have coursed


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

exponentially - human dominon - has marked the death of many things - i truly hope we find a mutually beneficial position with man and nature - but I'm afraid all I can influence is within a small locus, and even then i'm mostly unsuccessful - i wont be participating in any quasi-frankenstein endeavours - 

some people farm, some people destroy. both think.


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

Lucky Eddie said:


> A toy poodle?
> 
> No, I never thought of that, but now I just did.
> 
> And now ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


: victory:

Ha ha!

But it does illustrate the point.

Many pedigree dogs have been engineered to look how they do today, sometimes merely for the look, sometimes to serve a special function.

It often causes health problems in such dogs.

Bulldogs. Sharpei's.

But it has happened, because that is how we are wired, it seems.


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## MaskFac3 (Dec 2, 2011)

Also does everyone remember how the killer bee was made.


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

the sad story of the killer bee - he was abused by his parents and suffered rejection in his sexual conquests and betrayed by his friends he developed pathological behavior and suffering with psychosis violence eventually became his world.

p.s we should let this thread die...


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> Agreed. They're just put into an enclosure with another species that might be 100's or even 1000's of miles apart in the wild. Quite natural eh!


just as natural as a glass or plastic box in a room where nothing but an owners ignorance will kill it during its natural live span.



dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> I think the only reason to hypbridise is for "look at me and what i've done" status.


If this is true then it must also be true that the only reason people keep tarantulas is so that other people will think they are a cool dude owning such a different type of pet. The only reason people need is for the fun of it. I keep and have bred true species just for the fun of it and nothing more so don't see why people who wish to dable in hybridising spiders should do it for any other reasons either. Why on earth should they have to explain their actions anyway?



stevenrudge said:


> agree with what you say about liberty and people being curious,but there are bigger issues with this,if we find that through selective breeding animals whether they are Reptiles,Dog,Fish,whatever,we course the said animal physical harm example some of the Ball pythons,Carpet pythons,morphs then we have a duty of care not to pursue these lines.


So now that we have these different breeds/morphs we should now just stop breeding them altogether and just let them die out?



stevenrudge said:


> As regards (engineering nature)to suit truth is we cannot,sure we manipulate some easy breeding lines of some animals and plants,but we are not engineering nature.


Orchids just one example of thousands where we have engineered/hybridized nature.


stevenrudge said:


> Any Engineer in any field can re-engineer a design fault and upgrade current designs.


how is re-engineering not engineering? 



stevenrudge said:


> We deal with living animals that we cannot re-design faults out that we have coursed


Is this not what selective breeding strives to do? Breed out the undesired qualities and keep the desired ones.



gambitgareth said:


> exponentially - human dominon - has marked the death of many things - i truly hope we find a mutually beneficial position with man and nature - but I'm afraid all I can influence is within a small locus, and even then i'm mostly unsuccessful - i wont be participating in any quasi-frankenstein endeavours -
> 
> some people farm, some people destroy. both think.


You paint a picture of a mad scientist in some labotory hatching and evil plan to destory life on earth as we know it! Do you honestly think hybrid spiders in captivity will destroy the world?



MaskFac3 said:


> Also does everyone remember how the killer bee was made.


 Wait, are you worried about an attack of swarming killer hybrid tarantulas now? I think you have taken a Micheal Cain film a little bit too much to heart.



gambitgareth said:


> the sad story of the killer bee - he was abused by his parents and suffered rejection in his sexual conquests and betrayed by his friends he developed pathological behavior and suffering with psychosis violence eventually became his world.
> 
> p.s we should let this thread die...


Not really sure what you say with this but let the thread die? Why? its an intresting topic. Sure it has ran off course a little but all conversations do from time to time, but it is still more or less the same ball park.

Just to bring it round to the first post again:-



kris74 said:


> This got me thinking about the fact that for the most part we as spider keepers tend to frown on cross breeding and hybridising and with *very good reason*. Purity of blood lines and *not introducing potential physical issues...*.


Still waiting to see these good reasons.

look up split/double folium. I know this has trate has been tried to some extent to be selectively bred without a hybrid in sight. Is this not introducing a potentiaö physical issue?


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

my comment was in response to being overly sentimental my retort was designed with hyperbole.... since that was the way the conversation was going...

let the thread die because as far as i can see there is a consensus on how we prefer to treasure the purebred species we have in the t hobby - see the search bar this has been brought up lots of times - the grass is not always greener on the otherside (cliche). sure there is perhaps a problem in the stigmatizing of those that develop hybrid projects... but the truth is that I wont willingly buy any hybrids, thats not irrational and also not out of context with a t's natural ecosystem.

If you are going to deconstruct arguments the result needs substance; no amount of semiology can prevent t keepers buying pure breds. :whistling2:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

gambitgareth said:


> my comment was in response to being overly sentimental my retort was designed with hyperbole.... since that was the way the conversation was going...
> 
> let the thread die because as far as i can see there is a consensus on how we prefer to treasure the purebred species we have in the t hobby - see the search bar this has been brought up lots of times - the grass is not always greener on the otherside (cliche). sure there is perhaps a problem in the stigmatizing of those that develop hybrid projects... but the truth is that I wont willingly buy any hybrids, thats not irrational and also not out of context with a t's natural ecosystem.
> 
> If you are going to deconstruct arguments the result needs substance; no amount of semiology can prevent t keepers buying pure breds. :whistling2:


I'm not saying the grass greener or any other cliche and like I have always said there is no problem to keeping or striving to keeping pure bred species only, but the consensus within this hobby that hybrid spiders are in someway a lesser spider, the begining of the end of the hobby and created by idiots just so they can boast is ridiculous at best.

I also don't want to prevent tarantula keepers from buying pure breds, where have I stated or even hinted at such a thing? 

Saying let the thread die is just saying you yourself has nothing more to add to the thread, but just because you do not want or can not add anything to the topic does not means others should not if they so wish to.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Let the thread run I say, lets end this Malignant Narcissism :whistling2:
Rush Malignant Narcissism- Team America Video - YouTube

Oh yes I'm back :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

gambitgareth said:


> the sad story of the killer bee - he was abused by his parents and suffered rejection in his sexual conquests and betrayed by his friends he developed pathological behavior and suffering with psychosis violence eventually became his world.
> 
> p.s we should let this thread die...


 
Killer bees are innocent.

*FREE THE KILLER BEE*.

T'was a police set up.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

Baldpoodle said:


> Still waiting to see these good reasons.
> 
> look up split/double folium. I know this has trate has been tried to some extent to be selectively bred without a hybrid in sight. Is this not introducing a potentiaö physical issue?


I started the thread out of sheer curiosity and the fact I couldn't get answers from the relevant section.

It's only my opinion that cross breeding and hybridising shouldn't happen and i highlighted certain species of dogs as that very good reason. Purely opinion based mate; however genetic engineering and hybridising in other areas is something that just doesn't sit well with me and hasn't for a long time.

I understand that in modern life it is hard to get away from as we need medicines, crops etc but doesn't mean we have to agree with it. I tried to keep myself as impartial as possible from the start and stated clearly that I know very little on the subject and wanted to know a bit more, including attitudes to it. It just so happens that the majority of posters are against it and I'm glad that you came in with a counter argument, it's just a shame someone from the reptile/snake sections couldn't do the same.


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

I just dont see why people want to merge two species and produce individuals which are worthless to both species.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

I think it is very difficult to compare the breeding practices of the reptile/mammal and even the plant world with that of the invert hobby. 

A big big problem I see for the guys and girls who want to keep their spiders pure in hobby is the fact that there are always more and more species coming into the hobby, many of which are undescribed and many of which look almost identical to others that already exsist in the hobby. Spider x may look like spider z but it does not make it so even if they come in the same shipment. 
That said to have any real chance to keep your pure bloods pure you can only mate your spiders with those that come in the same shipment, and that means buying more than one specimen (gone seems the days when close friends got together at shows to buy 4 or 5 specimens of the same species and only breed between themselfs) but now with all the different species there is a kind of pokiemon attitude of got to get one of each and down the line the import and collection data gets lost, so they get called spider x or z because they look like a spider that came in on a different import and get paired with it....(people are worried to get ousted by the spider folk if they call then possible hybrids so they keep stum mainly through ignorance) In effect you unknownly have hybrid spiders in the hobby anyway.
Now I can not prove this at all but if I just go by all the threads on the internet of the countless different forums, where people ask what type of spider I have, then look at all the countless different replies I am going to place my bets that this happens much much more often than we like to admit to ourselfs.

I also think it is important to try and keep species pure but even as I say this and because of the reasons above I am very sure in many cases this is not possible at least within this hobby, so I say be a little bit more open to the acception of hybrids and I think the the guys and girls of the pure blood gang would benifit also as people would not worry too much to say they may have bred hybrids and the pure blood gang could stay clear.

Not sure if this makes any sence as putting into words what I think is not my strong point but I think you my get the jist.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> I just dont see why people want to merge two species and produce individuals which are worthless to both species.


for fun. there needs no other reason.


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

Fun at a blood lines expense, seems a pointless reason.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Fun at a blood lines expense, seems a pointless reason.


I have mated pure blood spiders purly for fun this also must be pointless! (As already stated several posts ago)
how is it a blood lines expense? you think a whole blood line (I persume you mean species) will dissapear if someone chooses to hybridize a spider? really?


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

gambitgareth said:


> yea but havent you heard of thai brides:lol2:


I tried hybridizing with one of those myself, but I never got to see the resulting offspring.


One mistake is all it takes to end a relationship I've learnt , mine was leaving the basement door unlocked that day.


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

Baldpoodle said:


> I have mated pure blood spiders purly for fun this also must be pointless! (As already stated several posts ago)
> how is it a blood lines expense? you think a whole blood line (I persume you mean species) will dissapear if someone chooses to hybridize a spider? really?


Of course not. From one extreme to another...

Its still making the offspring useless.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Of course not. From one extreme to another...
> 
> Its still making the offspring useless.


useless for what? People who wish to breed just pure blood then yes, people who don't then no. So now then how else are they useless?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> useless for what? People who wish to breed just pure blood then yes, people who don't then no. So now then how else are they useless?


they are also useless for:

a) vegetarian cooking
b) directing episodes of Eastenders
c) IKEA furniture assembly
d) an oil and filter change on the car

and

e) dentistry

i'm sure there's much much more :2thumb:


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

And useless for sustaining pure species in culture.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> they are also useless for:
> 
> a) vegetarian cooking
> b) directing episodes of Eastenders
> ...


Oh I don't know with the addition of tiny spider tools.....


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> And useless for sustaining pure species in culture.


well done you have just picked the example I gave and reworded it for your own example.


Me said:


> useless for what? *People who wish to breed just pure blood then yes*, people who don't then no. So now then how else are they useless?


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Fun at a blood lines expense, seems a pointless reason.


It's clearly_ not_ pointless to the person doing it, otherwise one would assume they would not do it.

Not everyone thinks in exactly the same way, or shares precisely the same set of objectives, as you may have.


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> just as natural as a glass or plastic box in a room where nothing but an owners ignorance will kill it during its natural live span.
> 
> 
> If this is true then it must also be true that the only reason people keep tarantulas is so that other people will think they are a cool dude owning such a different type of pet. The only reason people need is for the fun of it. I keep and have bred true species just for the fun of it and nothing more so don't see why people who wish to dable in hybridising spiders should do it for any other reasons either. Why on earth should they have to explain their actions anyway?
> ...


1'point where we have bred Morphs that course the animal problems example some of the Ball'Carpet pythons nuro/motion problems Dogs that cannot give birth properly because the pups heads are so big,we should stop breeding those lines.
2'l have never been anti hybridized animals except where it can be shown by are actions to course animal suffering 
3' you miss my point about ( re-engineering not engineering? )of course re-engineering is engineering my point was that we are not engineers,we can manipulate breeding lines sure,but we do not engineer anything and with a living commodity we have not and cannot engineered out some of the faults that we have made
4' got no problems with selective breeding to improve lines,my only point is this,we have got the the stage already where some of the pure lines of corns,pythons do not exist anymore in captivity,try getting a pure corn or Burmese python that will produce normal baby's,you cannot,try getting a pure Indian python,you cannot,we need to have the pure lines as well as the morphs and hybrids,but all where getting is a genetic mess


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

stevenrudge said:


> 1'point where we have bred Morphs that course the animal problems example some of the Ball'Carpet pythons nuro/motion problems Dogs that cannot give birth properly because the pups heads are so big,we should stop breeding those lines.
> 2'l have never been anti hybridized animals except where it can be shown by are actions to course animal suffering
> 3' you miss my point about ( re-engineering not engineering? )of course re-engineering is engineering my point was that we are not engineers,we can manipulate breeding lines sure,but we do not engineer anything and with a living commodity we have not and cannot engineered out some of the faults that we have made
> 4' got no problems with selective breeding to improve lines,my only point is this,we have got the the stage already where some of the pure lines of corns,pythons do not exist anymore in captivity,try getting a pure corn or Burmese python that will produce normal baby's,you cannot,try getting a pure Indian python,you cannot,we need to have the pure lines as well as the morphs and hybrids,but all where getting is a genetic mess


this really should be in the reptile part of the forum as it has nothing to do with spiders really but I shall indulge.

1: the head bobing in these snakes is as far as I know linked to the gene that causes the pattern. Where can this relate to spiders?
How many breeds of dogs should we now stop breeding, because with pedigree seems to = a whole lot of inbreeding these days causeing many problems. Again where can we relate this to spiders?

2: So you could say you are ok with hybrid spiders then?

3: Ok so we can not change what has been done but to discontinue many pure breeds will then just dissapear. 

4: Yes I can agree here these things can relate to spiders also if hybrids are in the hobby, but the big differnce is that as a rule youcan normally tell what snake you have and what morph it is yes? In the spider hobby however there are many species that look very the same yet are not and because there are not a lot of people who can tell the difference properly the mix ups are already out there unknowningly. I tried to explain how I ment in an earlier post. This is why I feel more acceptance of hybrid spiders may lead to more honesty from people who are unsure if they are hybrid but give it species name anyway so as not to be shund. Pure bred species can be kept pure along side hybrid spiders in the hobby if just a little thought went into it.


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## kris74 (May 10, 2011)

stevenrudge said:


> 1'point where we have bred Morphs that course the animal problems example some of the Ball'Carpet pythons nuro/motion problems Dogs that cannot give birth properly because the pups heads are so big,we should stop breeding those lines.
> 2'l have never been anti hybridized animals except where it can be shown by are actions to course animal suffering
> 3' you miss my point about ( re-engineering not engineering? )of course re-engineering is engineering my point was that we are not engineers,we can manipulate breeding lines sure,but we do not engineer anything and with a living commodity we have not and cannot engineered out some of the faults that we have made
> 4' got no problems with selective breeding to improve lines,my only point is this,we have got the the stage already where some of the pure lines of corns,pythons do not exist anymore in captivity,try getting a pure corn or Burmese python that will produce normal baby's,you cannot,try getting a pure Indian python,you cannot,we need to have the pure lines as well as the morphs and hybrids,but all where getting is a genetic mess





Baldpoodle said:


> this really should be in the reptile part of the forum as it has nothing to do with spiders really but I shall indulge.
> 
> 1: the head bobing in these snakes is as far as I know linked to the gene that causes the pattern. Where can this relate to spiders?
> How many breeds of dogs should we now stop breeding, because with pedigree seems to = a whole lot of inbreeding these days causeing many problems. Again where can we relate this to spiders?
> ...


This is where the thread has gone awry. I was curious as to why there seems to be little tolerance to it in this hobby than there seems to be in other hobbies, be that snakes, lizards, dogs or cats etc. 

I see Baldpoodles point on people doing it in the spider hobby and not saying anything about it for risk of being ostracised and this having a massive effect on blood lines. Some of the avics and H.gigas etc are a good example of these. I bought a H.gigas myself before actually looking into it more and I now have what I believe to be a hybrid after reading up on the description of both on TSS. No doubt she is still a handsome spider and lives up to her reputation, displays the traits we buy them for but pure? I don't think so and would be unwilling to breed her until I had solid confirmation either way. 

As you say BP, there are probably loads in the hobby that have been bought out of sheer ignorance and then unwittingly bred as something they are not. This may be what people get their backs up about as they have bought one thing but received another and so on down the line.

Another point from the spider hobby point of view which hasn't been mentioned yet and I thought it might (I'll bring it up now) is if there are more and more hybrids coming in to the hobby and more and more people wanting to keep away from them as best they can then the only recourse to be truly sure of what you are buying would be to get wild collected specimens and this in turn may be putting pressure on wild stocks.

There was a thread about wild caught the other day and either Steve or Pete said they would prefer wild caught to cb any day. I'm going to assume this is due to the muddied waters of the hobby

I think if people set out to do it then I don't personally think it's for the wow factor, not in this hobby anyway as the wow factor is already there with big spiders. Just look at 99% of the reactions you get when people find out you actually keep spiders. I reckon it's more of interest/boredom than anything but as was stated earlier, there is no colour morphing with tarantulas therefore no recessive gene to exploit (from the limited knowledge I have) so it must be to try to create a new form rather than a more colourful form of an existing species and this is where the ethics comes in to it, mine at least, as I don't think we should be doing that. Fair enough they are likely to remain in the hobby and not do too much "damage" but do we really need more species out there when, as BP himself has put it, there are so many species that we know nothing about? Maybe we should make a concerted effort to learn about these other species before they are cross bred and let loose in the hobby.

Probably a bit idealist and I for one am far from being an idealist. I'm a pessimistic pragmatic baldy old fart who hates most things all the time but I love animals and in a dying and rapidly changing world then surely we have a duty as hobbyists to try to keep things as they were intended to be if we are intent on keeping them captive?


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## stevenrudge (Sep 3, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> this really should be in the reptile part of the forum as it has nothing to do with spiders really but I shall indulge.
> 
> 1: the head bobing in these snakes is as far as I know linked to the gene that causes the pattern. Where can this relate to spiders?
> How many breeds of dogs should we now stop breeding, because with pedigree seems to = a whole lot of inbreeding these days causeing many problems. Again where can we relate this to spiders?
> ...


yes wright this do'nt relate to spiders but the person who started this originally put this thred in the reptile section but got no reponce and l replied from a reptile hobby point of view


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## Diabolic Al (Mar 12, 2010)

Surely the problem occurs when people do not KNOW that an animal is hybridised. The cambrigei/irminia hybrid is pretty abvious but a lot of brachy hybrids are not noticable at first glance or to the casual keeper. If the keeper then breeds a purebreed and a hybrid under the assumption he/she has two purebreeds then sells the offspring as purebreeds then, well im sure people can see the problems inherent. 

For example i actually have two of the cambridgei/irminia hybrids. I like them, i think their bronzey colours are really nice. However i was informed that these were bought as purebred Irminia slings (from TSS no less). thankfully as i mentioned above this particular hybrid is obvious but there are many more out there that are not. It's surely this uncertainty regarding T identities that is the main threat to bloodlines not the hybrids themselves.... 

It kind of removes the point of captive breeding to maintain the species in the wild if all that is happening is that the purbred stock is slowly being diluted because people don't knwo what they are breeding....


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## MaskFac3 (Dec 2, 2011)

Alright everyone who wants to crossbreed imagine this, a huge natural disaster occurs in say Mexico and many brachypelma species become extinct in the wild. Then all thats keeping the species from extinction is the captive stocks and what use are they if it's jus a bunch of collapsed gene pools. You, by crossbreeding, could be indirectly responsible for the extinction of a species and out of the 900 or so species discovered and more being found every day why do you feel the need to crossbreed something that will likely never look anywhere near as good as it's parents did anyway?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Diabolic Al said:


> Surely the problem occurs when people do not KNOW that an animal is hybridised. The cambrigei/irminia hybrid is pretty abvious but a lot of brachy hybrids are not noticable at first glance or to the casual keeper. If the keeper then breeds a purebreed and a hybrid under the assumption he/she has two purebreeds then sells the offspring as purebreeds then, well im sure people can see the problems inherent.
> 
> It kind of removes the point of captive breeding to maintain the species in the wild if all that is happening is that the purbred stock is slowly being diluted because people don't knwo what they are breeding....


This!
The problem arises when the breeders of these muts struggle to sell them, not because of misunderstanding them but because the majority of people in the hobby just dont want them and then they are sold on as specific species. Not necessarily to people that dont know any different because some look very similar to one of the parents and are nigh on impossible to tell apart visually.



MaskFac3 said:


> Alright everyone who wants to crossbreed imagine this, a huge natural disaster occurs in say Mexico and many brachypelma species become extinct in the wild. Then all thats keeping the species from extinction is the captive stocks and what use are they if it's jus a bunch of collapsed gene pools. You, by crossbreeding, could be indirectly responsible for the extinction of a species and out of the 900 or so species discovered and more being found every day why do you feel the need to crossbreed something that will likely never look anywhere near as good as it's parents did anyway?


a bit harsh really, you could equally say that the person who doesnt keep their spider right and it dies after a few years is also responsible for the extinction of a species by this standard ie. use of a heatmat when its not needed, not using external heat for sp. that need it, moist when it should be dry, dry when it should be moist etc etc


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## Brandan Smith (Nov 17, 2010)

Tbh , Its down to choice if someone wants to cross-breed then let them they not hurting anyone, 8 pages of useless arguments because in reality theres no right or wrong answer.Its your opinion if you think cross-breeding is wrong, I did used too be against it strongly but bp always puts up a great argument so I'm on the boarder would i crossbreed .. probably not am i going to loose sleep over someone else crossbreeding ... i very much doubt it.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

as long as people do it responsibly and they are labelled as such then fine, but on previous occurences this hasn't been the case.

so its quite understandable when people get upset over years of work going down the drain due to the greed, stupidity or downright sneakyness of someone who cant sell the vast majority of the offspring they produce and label it something else


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> A big big problem I see for the guys and girls who want to keep their spiders pure in hobby is the fact that there are always more and more species coming into the hobby, many of which are undescribed and many of which look almost identical to others that already exsist in the hobby. Spider x may look like spider z but it does not make it so even if they come in the same shipment.
> Now I can not prove this at all but if I just go by all the threads on the internet of the countless different forums, where people ask what type of spider I have, then look at all the countless different replies I am going to place my bets that this happens much much more often than we like to admit to ourselfs.


I don't believe that the instances of people on forums querying the species of their tarantula naturally relates to an increase in hybrids. For a small percentage this might transpose to hybridisation but for the most part I'd guess most people either don't bother to attempt breeding or don't have success with breeding. If we use the logic used to suggest this is a measure of hybridising then the lack of success reported in the forums also provides a measure. 

Certain species however, are accepted as possible hybrids, H. gigas, B. albopilosum and B. vagans are examples. Certain genus are at best mixed eg. Avicularia and some have intentionally been hybridised eg. Psalmo's and Pokies (smithi/pederseni; ornata/fasciata; regalis/fasciata; regalis/ornata; regalis/striata). The result and reaction to this hasn't been, oh, that was a laugh, its been negative and its discouraged people from breeding these species. I have a B. vagans female that I'd like to breed, it was bred from WC parents as the intention was to provide pure (or as pure as could be attained) B. vaginas. I'd only consider breeding if I can find someone who has a pure vagans male.
I try to make sure that what I breed is as pure as I can, if I'm not confident of purity I don't breed. As Ray Gabriel puts it, "if in doubt, don't".




Baldpoodle said:


> for fun. there needs no other reason.


Until someone comes up with a better reason than the frivolous one given I see no point in producing hybrids. It gains nothing more than satisfying someones curiosity, its mostly shunned by the hobbyist and it creates a negative affect on breeding. The only positive I can appreciate is that it may spurn people on to ensuring the ID of their intended breeding programmes, but topics like this can do so without actually breeding.

It seems odd that the person who condems those for taking a stance, himself talks with no experience of producing hybrids. Infact his experience is so limited he doesn't even know whether it is actually fun or not, save for the experience of others. 

There are plenty of reputable arguments against hybrids within the animal kingdom, The National Academy of Sciences published their reports on hybrids in 2007 stating that they're weren't as fit as other animals. The Big Cat Rescue in Tampa, Florida reported that Ligers and Tigons hybrids suffer from many birth defects and usually die young but it also puts a risk factor on the female and many have to be delivered via C-section. Various zoos around the world have shown similar results including mixing dolphins with killer whales, polar bears with grizzly bears. All report a significant negative affect in the hybrid animals.

A good source for information on hybrids is found in what became the DM model (or BDM model) as explained by Dobzhansky in 1937 and referred to it as hybrid dysfunction. It deals with the incompatibilities of alleles and explains how the recessive alleles create the greatest dysfunction.
Another good souce is Haldane's rule which states that hybrid offspring with heterogametic sex chromosomes often suffer greater dysfunction (sterility and inviability) than hybrids of the homogametic sex. 
Turelli and Orr created their own model whereby they found linking dominance epistasis created high fitness of females but low fitness of males. However, their studies were found to have ignored certain elements.
An interesting additional conclusion from the work carried out by Dobzhansky and Muller; Turelli and Orr; and Demuth and Wade; is that negative hybrid dysfunction is more prevalent in species collected from different localities rather than the same locality as the alleles were further apart.

I know if I'm going to attempt breeding a species I want to make every effort possible to attaining strong specimens. If inbreeding has an impact on their health I see no reason to persue that.

We have "fun" over "weak". Take your pick.


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

troll hunted... thanks for the input pete:lol2:


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> I don't believe that the instances of people on forums querying the species of their tarantula naturally relates to an increase in hybrids. For a small percentage this might transpose to hybridisation but for the most part I'd guess most people either don't bother to attempt breeding or don't have success with breeding. If we use the logic used to suggest this is a measure of hybridising then the lack of success reported in the forums also provides a measure.


My point was that that because many do not know which species they have and are unsure of how to tell properly there is a very good chance hybrids are out there through ignorance. There maybe a big lack of success shown on our english speaking forums but, our european friends seem to have cracked a whole lot more breeding. How many successful breedings of unknown IDs does it take for them to get in the hobby? I am no way saying there are no pure blood out there, the vast majority is pure I would suspect as there are enough spiders that even the average dum dum such as myself can ID, but you my friend are true to my previous comment of "this happens much much more often than we like to admit to ourselfs".



Poxicator said:


> Certain species however, are accepted as possible hybrids, H. gigas, B. albopilosum and B. vagans are examples. Certain genus are at best mixed eg. Avicularia and some have intentionally been hybridised eg. Psalmo's and Pokies (smithi/pederseni; ornata/fasciata; regalis/fasciata; regalis/ornata; regalis/striata). The result and reaction to this hasn't been, oh, that was a laugh, its been negative and its discouraged people from breeding these species.


If some are accepted as hybrids why then are many sold with species names? the reaction was from who again?...Oh yes the people who are anti hybrid with a vengence. The person who bred them may have thought it was fun. 
Interesting you bring up Poecilotheria as it is one genus you should be able to key out from its pattern alone so am I right in thinking that any further cock ups with pairing the hybrids with pure blood could only have come through ignorance if it wasn't intended? Its those negative attitudes that incorage people to sell with a species name or sp "blah de blah" instead of just simply calling it a hybrid.



Poxicator said:


> I have a B. vagans female that I'd like to breed, it was bred from WC parents as the intention was to provide pure (or as pure as could be attained) B. vaginas. I'd only consider breeding if I can find someone who has a pure vagans male.


Thats great kudos to you this is your choice and it should be fine with everyone. shame you only have the one though...ah the 7 Ps.



Poxicator said:


> I try to make sure that what I breed is as pure as I can, if I'm not confident of purity I don't breed. As Ray Gabriel puts it, "if in doubt, don't".


I take it this only goes for your vagans?
For Pete ( poxicator)
get anymore luck?
The Tarantula Store -> A. sp. metallica
I really don't care for how Ray Gabriel puts it. Just because he says this does not make it so.



Poxicator said:


> Until someone comes up with a better reason than the frivolous one given I see no point in producing hybrids. It gains nothing more than satisfying someones curiosity, its mostly shunned by the hobbyist and it creates a negative affect on breeding. The only positive I can appreciate is that it may spurn people on to ensuring the ID of their intended breeding programmes, but topics like this can do so without actually breeding.
> .


this is the only reason needed, fun satisfying someones curiosity is another good reason why do you people need more? I have bred pure species for nothing more than fun. It doesn't create a negative effect on breeding How? unknown hybrids in the hobby? and whats the blame?....this shuning by other hobbists is. when was the last time you saw those suspected hybrid genera sold as suspected hybrids?
If this spurs people into ensureing possitive IDs then this is a huge bennifit for the guys and girls who just wish to breed pure blood, you should be thanking the hybrids not moaning about them. 



Poxicator said:


> It seems odd that the person who condems those for taking a stance, himself talks with no experience of producing hybrids. Infact his experience is so limited he doesn't even know whether it is actually fun or not, save for the experience of others.


And what prey from your 4 years is your experince? Oh sorry you have good experince going from that avic thread. was the breeding not good fun? Wait one moment how can mating two different species of spider be any less or more fun than mating two of the same? 



Poxicator said:


> There are plenty of reputable arguments against hybrids within the animal kingdom, The National Academy of Sciences published their reports on hybrids in 2007 stating that they're weren't as fit as other animals. The Big Cat Rescue in Tampa, Florida reported that Ligers and Tigons hybrids suffer from many birth defects and usually die young but it also puts a risk factor on the female and many have to be delivered via C-section. Various zoos around the world have shown similar results including mixing dolphins with killer whales, polar bears with grizzly bears. All report a significant negative affect in the hybrid animals.
> 
> A good source for information on hybrids is found in what became the DM model (or BDM model) as explained by Dobzhansky in 1937 and referred to it as hybrid dysfunction. It deals with the incompatibilities of alleles and explains how the recessive alleles create the greatest dysfunction.
> Another good souce is Haldane's rule which states that hybrid offspring with heterogametic sex chromosomes often suffer greater dysfunction (sterility and inviability) than hybrids of the homogametic sex.
> ...


Great stuff without an spider in sight! Not read then nor am going read them either (I wonder actually if you have properly) but this is great news for you Pure blood guys because Haldane's rule which states that hybrid offspring with heterogametic sex chromosomes often suffer greater dysfunction (sterility and inviability) than hybrids of the homogametic sex so most the males produced will anyway be infertile no risk to your pures then after all....unless you also only feed pure blood Lepidopterans of cource lol


Poxicator said:


> I know if I'm going to attempt breeding a species I want to make every effort possible to attaining strong specimens. If inbreeding has an impact on their health I see no reason to persue that.


hybrids and inbreeding are are now the same?
.[/QUOTE]




Poxicator said:


> We have "fun" over "weak". Take your pick.


Sorry don't get what you mean please draw a picture for Mr Thickie here.

Hope the quotes are in the right place lol


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

gambitgareth said:


> troll hunted... thanks for the input pete:lol2:


Are you now calling me a troll for having a different oppinion?


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> My point was that that because many do not know which species they have and are unsure of how to tell properly there is a very good chance hybrids are out there through ignorance. There maybe a big lack of success shown on our english speaking forums but, our european friends seem to have cracked a whole lot more breeding. How many successful breedings of unknown IDs does it take for them to get in the hobby? I am no way saying there are no pure blood out there, the vast majority is pure I would suspect as there are enough spiders that even the average dum dum such as myself can ID, but you my friend are true to my previous comment of "this happens much much more often than we like to admit to ourselfs".
> 
> 
> If some are accepted as hybrids why then are many sold with species names? the reaction was from who again?...Oh yes the people who are anti hybrid with a vengence. The person who bred them may have thought it was fun.
> ...


 


Sorry don't get what you mean please draw a picture for Mr Thickie here.

Hope the quotes are in the right place lol[/QUOTE]

in response i shall repeat (and yes i have plenty of experience in the hobby)



> as long as people do it responsibly and they are labelled as such then fine, but on previous occurences this hasn't been the case.
> 
> so its quite understandable when people get upset over years of work going down the drain due to the greed, stupidity or downright sneakyness of someone who cant sell the vast majority of the offspring they produce and label it something else


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

If your memory serves you well you'll know that I already explained about the Avics, and I, Alex and Ray Gabriel were confident of the correct species. However, since that discussion Ive withdrawn from breeding Avics save for versicolor and a couple of possibles that I have incl A. minatrix.

Great to see you're taking such a keen interest in me though, all healthy I hope


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Baldpoodle said:


> I really don't care for how Ray Gabriel puts it. Just because he says this does not make it so.


Exactly my thoughts when you say its fun.


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

Doesn't he mean it is 'fun' for those that _do_ take something from breeding or trying to breed hybrids, rather than him saying he would_ personally_ find it fun?

I think he indicated that it would be no more or less 'fun' than breeding two spiders of the same species, in his view, but to someone who_ is_ into doing it, there would be an element of pleasure.

Rightly or wrongly, man has long since done that with animals.

We are naturally curious I suppose..


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> in response i shall repeat (and yes i have plenty of experience in the hobby)


 I actually agree with you steve and it will continue to stay as it is until attitudes towards hybrid spiders change as like them or not they are already here.



Poxicator said:


> If your memory serves you well you'll know that I already explained about the Avics, and I, Alex and Ray Gabriel were confident of the correct species. However, since that discussion Ive withdrawn from breeding Avics save for versicolor and a couple of possibles that I have incl A. minatrix.
> 
> Great to see you're taking such a keen interest in me though, all healthy I hope


no my memory does not serve please refresh.
And you were just on the look out for more confident correct species yes? lol pull the other one. what were you going to do ask all the people that reply to the add to first send their females to Ray Gabriel to get them looked at?
Great you have withdrawn but so many haven't so all these people must be wrong to be breeding their unconfirmed avics and selling them under specie names, like wise all those other dubious sp yes? so that now leaves the hobby at about 10 or 20 responsible people now lol.

I take about as much interest in you as you do me so judge if it is healthy by your own standerds.: victory:



Poxicator said:


> Exactly my thoughts when you say its fun.


so it can only be fun putting two same species together right? You know we are just talking mating two spiders together yes? Explain how one act is less fun that the other how you see it.


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## Colosseum (Aug 8, 2008)

Hello Baldpoodle :2thumb:


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

To be honest, who the hell would mate a pair of spiders just for kicks?
When i pair mantids up i dont find it an enjoyable affair, i just see it as necessary to carry to the next generation. I dont look forward to potentially losing some of my pets. If its money your after you could still make money breeding a pure species.

Im going to be pretty pissed if by the time i can have the tarantula collection i've always wanted i wont be able to get a species without worrying its a muddled up mess of different strains.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> To be honest, who the hell would mate a pair of spiders just for kicks?


Well I have mated plenty of spiders for kicks, infact I can safly say I have only mated spiders up for kicks or fun. I no way see myself as trying to save a species from extintion, trying to limit tarantula imports, or even trying to make a bit of money on the side. 
The hobby for me is a bit of fun to be enjoyed by everyone who whats to enjoy it and how ever they want to enjoy it. And if you enjoy and find fun in mating spiders then all power to you. I do enough stuff I don't enjoy everyday when I go to work but I have to to earn some money, why would I treat a hobby I have in the same light?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> Im going to be pretty pissed if by the time i can have the tarantula collection i've always wanted i wont be able to get a species without worrying its a muddled up mess of different strains.


Lets hope your tarantula collection has none of the mixed up stuff that has already been mentioned in this thread. There is plenty that hasn't been mixed up and is more or less easy to tell apart so keep to this. Just think of the 7 Ps it is not that hard.


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Much as I like the idea of keeping pure stock of wild species of spiders or whatever, we have to face facts about our pets.

Captive spider hobby theraphosids are unlikely to be of great use in potential reintroductions when the cons are added up, multi generational breeding without selection pressure (inbred or otherwise), possible genetic contamination from inadvertent hybridization, and last but no means least the introduction of alien pathogens and parasites into ecosystems.

All of the above make them of very little value for reintroductions, and in regard to invertebrates I believe it can be hard to get soild figures for populations and it can be all to easy to consider a species absent from a area when its still present, and if the habiat is gone or badly degraded then there's no point worrying about reintroduction anway.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Simples, Alex contacted me, he subsequently contacted Ray, after a period Ray responded to us and gave us the thumbs up. Thats the short version, and as we considered Ray to be the most prominent person in the UK to help that became the assurance we sought.

one act is with the intention of creating pure breeds, correct as much as we can ascertain.
the other act is the opposite to that and the best argument you can put up, in this thread and in so many other threads is its fun. Personally I don't think its fun because the survival rate in many of these hybrids is quite low, and I dont find losing spiders that I have bred to be fun. Nor do I find it fun when the scientific world suggests that hybrids throughout the animal kingdom produce weaker specimens, even when the volume of them is quite high (see Salamanders released into the wild). If my memory serves me correct the P. irminia/cambridgei crossbreeds that were created in Canada resulted in less than a handful of sub-adults. 
So, my measure of fun relates to the success of healthy tarantula.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> Simples, Alex contacted me, he subsequently contacted Ray, after a period Ray responded to us and gave us the thumbs up. Thats the short version, and as we considered Ray to be the most prominent person in the UK to help that became the assurance we sought.
> 
> one act is with the intention of creating pure breeds, correct as much as we can ascertain.
> the other act is the opposite to that and the best argument you can put up, in this thread and in so many other threads is its fun. Personally I don't think its fun because the survival rate in many of these hybrids is quite low, and I dont find losing spiders that I have bred to be fun. Nor do I find it fun when the scientific world suggests that hybrids throughout the animal kingdom produce weaker specimens, even when the volume of them is quite high (see Salamanders released into the wild). If my memory serves me correct the P. irminia/cambridgei crossbreeds that were created in Canada resulted in less than a handful of sub-adults.
> So, my measure of fun relates to the success of healthy tarantula.


Sure Ray knows his stuff about Avics no doubts about that. I would have asked Mark Allison myself like I have in the past here is what he told me...."if they look near enough the same then give um a go lad as they are anyway all mixed up in the hobby". this is going back a good few years though!

Yes I am sure there is a whole lot or research in the scientific world to surgest hybrids are weaker. care to show us the spider or even invert related articles on this? Maybe one about how weaker and dommed to fail the cross bred killer bees are perhaps or how about Homosapians? (look way back at our history for that).
They have not only been created in canada btw and yes deaths were also reported in these but I wonder how many of your pure bloods make it to adulthood?
Where are all those healthy L parabana? there must be an absolute crap load of them in every collection going by the number of healthy pure blood offspring they produce.
So going by your measure of fun I would not breed anything at all, be it pure or hybrid!
I'll let you get back on the phone now!


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> Sure Ray knows his stuff about Avics no doubts about that. I would have asked Mark Allison myself like I have in the past here is what he told me...."if they look near enough the same then give um a go lad as they are anyway all mixed up in the hobby". this is going back a good few years though!


Ah Mark is one of the elders also if there ever was, and I would say he was right, same issue as many of the _Pamphobeteus_ in the hobby and many more I imagine.

The hobby crusaders won't be saving that many pure species for the future at the current rate I reckon.


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Baldpoodle said:


> The hobby for me is a bit of fun to be enjoyed by everyone who whats to enjoy it and how ever they want to enjoy it.


Well said BP and that is the best attitude to have IMO ..... it's this elitist approach that puts me right off this hobby off at times ... certain people constantly striving to be the best at everything, always trying to grab the attention and hold some sort of position of merit within the hobby..... It's draining to watch.
-P


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> Nor do I find it fun when the scientific world suggests that hybrids throughout the animal kingdom produce weaker specimens, even when the volume of them is quite high (see Salamanders released into the wild).


Do you have a link for the salamander info Pete, I could turn up the release of Chinese giants in Japan and nobody seems to know whats going on with that, and hybrid vigor in hybrid _Ambystoma._


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

I would hardly call it elitism or whatever, more just wanting to keep the hobby healthy and more manageable.


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> To be honest, who the hell would mate a pair of spiders just for kicks?
> .


Probably someone interested in what the outcome would be.

Amazingly enough, not everyone shares the same ideals and motives.


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

Paul c 1 said:


> Well said BP and that is the best attitude to have IMO ..... it's this elitist approach that puts me right off this hobby off at times ... *certain people constantly striving to be the best at everything, always trying to grab the attention and hold some sort of position of merit within the hobby..... It's draining to watch*.
> -P


All of this.

Sadly true in many cases, imo as well.


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Mr Mister said:


> All of this.
> 
> Sadly true in many cases, imo as well.



its been like this for 25+ years at least so get used to it or find a different hobby :lol2:


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

Mr Mister said:


> Probably someone interested in what the outcome would be.
> 
> Amazingly enough, not everyone shares the same ideals and motives.


If your not trying to breed your just risking the tarantula's lives :/
Surely everyone in a pet keeping hobby shares the same motive of their welfare.


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> If your not trying to breed your just risking the tarantula's lives :/
> Surely everyone in a pet keeping hobby shares the same motive of their welfare.


That's where I think you go wrong, to be honest, the assumption that everyone shares the same motives....in anything they do.

They don't.


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## gambitgareth (Sep 18, 2011)

the deontological argument... call me 'meme'.... also i agree : victory:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Oderus said:


> Do you have a link for the salamander info Pete, I could turn up the release of Chinese giants in Japan and nobody seems to know whats going on with that, and hybrid vigor in hybrid _Ambystoma._


I have several PDFs at work, would you like me to email them to you Bill?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Paul c 1 said:


> Well said BP and that is the best attitude to have IMO ..... it's this elitist approach that puts me right off this hobby off at times ... certain people constantly striving to be the best at everything, always trying to grab the attention and hold some sort of position of merit within the hobby..... It's draining to watch.
> -P


I expect that is a direct shot towards myself. It would be humerous if it weren't so offensive. Elitism is against everything that I am and ever have been. Passionate about a hobby I'll accept but that remark tells me its time for me to leave this thread. Thanks!


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## Spider jake (Nov 6, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> its been like this for 25+ years at least so get used to it or find a different hobby :lol2:


I don't think this is the best of points tbh! Every one has the right to start a hobby and have there own opinion if he doesn't like it then he doesn't have to get a new hobby! people shouldn't be able to ruin other people enjoyment for there own personal self satisfaction and gain!


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

who is ruining enjoyment?

unfortunately no matter how good a point people put across against hybridising there is always someone who will fight the cause for it, no matter what their reason.
for some it is the fact of doing it, for others it is just to cause conflict on internet forums like has happened on this thread

my point was directed at the latter


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## Spider jake (Nov 6, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> who is ruining enjoyment?
> 
> unfortunately no matter how good a point people put across against hybridising there is always someone who will fight the cause for it, no matter what their reason.
> for some it is the fact of doing it, for others it is just to cause conflict on internet forums like has happened on this thread
> ...


All im saying is that every one is entitled to there own opinion! I don't care how long someone has been in the hobby 1 day or 30 years! There are no laws or rules against it! so people can do as they please! even thou i am against hybrids! it is not my duty to tell others how to spend there own leisure time!


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Spider jake said:


> All im saying is that every one is entitled to there own opinion! I don't care how long someone has been in the hobby 1 day or 30 years! There are no laws or rules against it! so people can do as they please! even thou i am against hybrids! it is not my duty to tell others how to spend there own leisure time!


if you read all my posts on the subject in this thread you will see that i say 'fine, go ahead, so long as it doesnt effect others in the hobby'

my beef is with those that pass off hybrids as true species and people making uninformed decisions or opinion


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## Spider jake (Nov 6, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> if you read all my posts on the subject in this thread you will see that i say 'fine, go ahead, so long as it doesnt effect others in the hobby'
> 
> my beef is with those that pass off hybrids as true species and people making uninformed decisions or opinion


It wasnt really directed at you! i just used your quote to make my point !


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## Paul c 1 (Sep 30, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> I expect that is a direct shot towards myself. It would be humerous if it weren't so offensive. Elitism is against everything that I am and ever have been. Passionate about a hobby I'll accept but that remark tells me its time for me to leave this thread. Thanks!



Sorry, I missed this comment ..... I really don't know how or where you've drawn that conclusion from to be quite honest with you Pete,... if you feel you fall under this category then I'm very sorry you feel this way.... my comment was aimed towards the "arachnocultural" hobby in general,... It was an impulse based passing comment that as most of us will know.. some folk just can't be content with being an average run of the mill guy or girl who keeps a few spiders they have an interest in ... it seems they are always on a mission to be the best at everything and make a point of letting everyone know that.

.... that's quite simply all I meant by it.
-P


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> who is ruining enjoyment?
> 
> unfortunately no matter how good a point people put across against hybridising there is always someone who will fight the cause for it, no matter what their reason.
> for some it is the fact of doing it, *for others it is just to cause conflict on internet forums like has happened on this thread*
> ...


Im sorry but are you implying that I am only stating my oppinion to create conflict? 
If the points put across were that good then everyone would have the same oppinon. There is nothing wrong in my mind with showing boths sides of the coin instead of just saying hybrids are bad full stop and expecting everyone to toe the line, follow suit and say the same no questions asked. 
Thankfully my skin is it seems a little thicker(maybe not the only thing) than Poxicator, and shall just take that remark, along with the troll one from gambitgareth in post 83 and just store them away somewhere because I won't let myself get bullied away from having a mind of my own.



dEsSiCaTa_UK said:


> If your not trying to breed your just risking the tarantula's lives :/
> Surely everyone in a pet keeping hobby shares the same motive of their welfare.


If they are intentionly putting two different sexes of two differet species together with an aspect to breed then they are trying to breed aren't they. I wouldn't see the point if either in putting them together if I wasn't trying to breed them, unless off course you want to study a species behaviour towards opposite sex specimens of other species, to see maybe how hybridisation may be avoided in the wild? Oh dam now I have gone and given another almost scientiffic reason for trying to hybridize - to learn more about spider mating behaviour! 
Sorry I didn't mean for that!


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## 8and6 (Jan 19, 2010)

Baldpoodle said:


> Thankfully my skin is it seems a little thicker(maybe not the only thing) than Poxicator, and shall just take that remark, along with the troll one from gambitgareth in post 83 and just store them away somewhere because I won't let myself get bullied away from having a mind of my own.



i neither named nor implied you, so it appears that either your skin isnt really that thick, or in fact you tarred yourself with the brush in your own mind.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> i neither named nor implied you, so it appears that either your skin isnt really that thick, or in fact you tarred yourself with the brush in your own mind.


 so where has it happen in this thread that someone has put across their oppinion just to cause conflict?


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## Oderus (Nov 24, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> I have several PDFs at work, would you like me to email them to you Bill?


If its no fuss I'll give them a read, I know of positives and negatives with fish hybrids I'm guessing amphibians are party to the same.


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## Mr Mister (Oct 12, 2011)

Sometimes hybrids can occur in nature, maybe due to changing environmental reasons.

I was surprised, for example, to find examples of Polar Bears mating with Brown Bears, in non captive conditions.


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