# Whites Tree Frog on back - help please



## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Bought my daughter 3 whites tree frogs at the Doncaster show. Today one wasn't looking too well - back leg was stretched out and it seemed quite limp. I placed it on its carpet moss, which was on a slight angle, but going back to check it found it on its back and unmoving.
Has anyone had this happen before? If so do you know if there is a reason? The other two frogs are fine. They were all from the same breeder but he said three frogs had spawned together so they may have different mothers.
I'm not sure if the frog is dead or not - I hope not as we will be devastated - but am hoping someone can shed some light and possibly suggest something I can try to help it. I've checked the internet but cannot find anything.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Hello mate.

You tried to flip him back over with a gentle persuasive tap? If its eating well and been acting normal since then I wouldn't worry too much, frogs can act very strangely indeed :lol2:

I would question this unusual behaviour though and keep an eye on him. As I said eating and movement pattern is normally a good sign of health with frogs.

Edit - sorry re-read this and you did say you moved him and he went back on his back. I think accidentally or stupidly ending up on his back is one thing but doing it again, I'd seriously consider a vet or looking into giving him a quarantine tank/tub where you can monitor and provide treatment.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks. Unfortunately its not moving at all. Its stomach is really bloated. It did move one back leg when I tried placing it in some tepid water but hasn't moved since. I've put it back in the tub it was in when we bought it and placed it in an incubater at the right heat and humidity to see if that helps - not least because I don't want anything to happen to the other two if it has something catching.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

All I can say is do what you've done already- quarantine it, monitor it and look at going to see a vet if things don't change as it doesn't sound too good at all. It could just be one of those things, they've happened to us all and the other frogs could be fine but it's better to be on the safe side. Fingers crossed for you.


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## berksmike (Jan 2, 2008)

Just to add to what the guys have said already I would contact the vendor too


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

since posting this today the other frog is acting the same and ive just put them in a cricket tub with a little water but they both i think are dead now sadly. here is a pic they both look very swollen. any ideas anyone?. my daughters so upset. one of there tongues seem swoll







en and sticking out of its mouth


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

Really sorry to hear that mate. Daft question but the water you were using- it couldn't have been contaminated in any way or could they have come in to contact with any chemicals? I only ask because I once had two deaths in a week with different species from completely different tanks with similar bloating to yours and I think the water I was using had been contaminated in some way.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Not that I can think of. We are always really careful to rinse our hands before going into their exo-terra and with them being so small, and just settling in we weren't handling them. The same source of water was used for my pacman frogs and they are all fine.
The third frog that was in with them still seems fine this morning, which makes me think there couldn't be a problem with their habitat - which was set up following advice from the vendor, and everything was bought new at the show.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

we have had a reptile shop confirm they had bloating a bacterial disese. we are gutted as everything was bought brand new including vivarium and set up as the seller told us at doncaster.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Are you going to isolate the third frog in a sterile environment?


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Yeah this was done yesterday and its looking fine so fingers crossed for it.


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## brysaa2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Nothing you could do then mate as others have said. Sorry to hear that, all the best for the last little soldier! Can you contact the vendor at all as mike suggested? Perhaps he will offer you replacements or shed some light for you.

All the best mate


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks for everyones help, weve emailed the seller yesterday a company called pollywog they were bought from and were waiting for a reply.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Just a update on this the breeder contacted us yesterday morning and asked how we had kept them and we informed him straight away but weve had no reply yet.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Hes a moderator on here !

On another forum someone had this problem with their frogs and they put it down to tapwater,which is strange to me.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

colinm said:


> Hes a moderator on here !
> 
> On another forum someone had this problem with their frogs and they put it down to tapwater,which is strange to me.


 It's not all that strange- there can be an awful lot of crap in tapwater; heavy metals, pesticides, fertilisers and so on.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

we use de-chlorinated water with my pacman frogs and they are still great so assume that can’t be a problem with the water and the last ones doing fine.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

And another day without a reply. Not very good from a Breeder/seller/mod on here sadly :-(


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Pollywog i hope you are ashmed of yourself you took my money but when a problem comes around you dont help at all. i thought being a breeder and mod on here you might have been more helpful. as you can guess people he cant be bothered to reply when you need help!!!!!!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

bobo1 said:


> And another day without a reply. Not very good from a Breeder/seller/mod on here sadly :-(





bobo1 said:


> Pollywog i hope you are ashmed of yourself you took my money but when a problem comes around you dont help at all. i thought being a breeder and mod on here you might have been more helpful. as you can guess people he cant be bothered to reply when you need help!!!!!!


To be fair, dude, he may just be away at the mo.


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Pollywog are usually pretty good, let us know if you here anything.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Ron Magpie said:


> To be fair, dude, he may just be away at the mo.


to be fair mate he emailed me a few days ago asking how they were kept and i replied within two minutes and no reply back.
ive had a lot of people wanting a update on this thats why i do it daily


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

*Ill White's*

The weekend of the 23rd, I went to the Doncaster Reptile Expo and purchased a trio of White's from a well respected breeder. Within 24 hours noticed one of them not moving much, had constricted pupils, and was refusing food. After some time would just go limp and not move at all. Within 48 hours of getting him home, he passed away. 

The other two frogs seemed fine, lively and active, both eating. One of them has not been eating for the past few days, and today noticed the same behavior the other frog had before passing away. 

I've spoken to a friend of mine who has kept White's for years, and she suggested posting something here for any other advice. I had spoken to the breeder when the first one went ill, and he was unsure of what it could be. 

Temperatures are 28 C (82.4 F) heated with a heat pad controlled by a stat
Misting with bottled water (never tap water)
Eco Earth Substrate

These are some pics I took of him this morning. 



















The other frog has been moved into a viv by himself, which is what I did with the other two when I noticed the first one go ill. I housed them together originally, as they were all kept together at the breeder's. 

Any advice is appreciated.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I believe Bobo1 has had a similar problem. :gasp:


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

Don't want to hijack your thread or anything, but also bought a trio of White's off of them at Donny and noticed the exact same thing with one during the first 24 hours. After 48 hours it had passed away. 

The other two seemed fine, and then today one has started acting the exact same way.



berksmike said:


> Just to add to what the guys have said already I would contact the vendor too


Yes I did that, and also contacted them after the first one passed away and the response I got was pretty much "oh well".


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

I've just seen Bobo's thread as well, and yes it was the same breeder. 

Not too happy at the moment, and even less happy that two have been/are suffering


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

Chromisca said:


> Don't want to hijack your thread or anything, but also bought a trio of White's off of them at Donny and noticed the exact same thing with one during the first 24 hours. After 48 hours it had passed away.
> 
> The other two seemed fine, and then today one has started acting the exact same way.
> 
> ...


That response is just not good enough. I would get back in touch straight away as there are probably others out there with the same problem. Try to PM him on here.


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## Sweetie (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi,

Could it be a parasite? The reason I ask is because my little whites had a parasite that caused various health problems, the fact they are from the same breeder suggests they my have been fed the same things? Could also be early mbd I suppose?

Sorry your little ones are poorly


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

I've sent a fecal to the vet's to see if there's an issue with it, so I'll know soonish on that. Someone had also suggested to Bobo1 about a bacterial bloat illness, so I've requested some info from my vet regarding that


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## Sweetie (Nov 19, 2011)

Good luck with the diagnosis and keep us informed


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

I am sorry to hear about you having the same problem as us. We are hoping our last one will be ok as it seems fine at the moment (my wife was excited it had poo'd in it's water two nights ago and it seems to be eating too). We were disgusted that there's been no reply, as these along with their new viv etc were an 18th birthday present :-(


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

So sorry for your loss, lets hope he reads our threads and sorts something out.


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

I hope so too, because chances are if the two of us are having the same issue, then others are too. 

No change on the ill frog right now. The seemingly healthly one still seems fine and has had his crickets tonight.


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## sheena is a gecko (Apr 22, 2011)

We also purchased 2 of these baby whites at Donny. We have bought from this breeder before and all other frogs we have from him are in good health. Unfortunately despite seeming healthy, bouncy and eating when we first brought them home both frogs passed away less than 8 days after getting them despite our best efforts. This left my wife absolutely distraught (near on hysterical is a better phrase) as the frogs are her pets and her "thing" and she has been convinced until now that she had done something terribly wrong that had caused the death of these little frogs since as I said before the breeder is well known and respected and all frogs we have bought from him previously are doing very well. We could not understand it as she kept them in the same conditions as the other tree frogs which are thriving and is meticulous about their water being clean etc. To be honest it's going to sound awful but at least it's a bit of a relief to know that others have had similar problems and I can now tell her to stop worrying about her care.


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## sheena is a gecko (Apr 22, 2011)

We've had the same problem mate. Bought 2 whites from the same seller at Donny for Lisa as she's very much gotten into her frogs lately. Both seemed fine eating and moving about at first, even took some crickets from tweezers. 5 days later came home to find one laid flat on it's back in the tub. Separated the other into a smaller sterile tub but unfortunately it passed away a couple of days later despite the fact that it seemed to be in pretty good health the night before, not thin was a good colour etc. Lisa was the most upset I have seen her in a long time as she thought she must have done something wrong since this breeder is well known and respected and I have to say we have bought from him before and all frogs are thriving. We followed the care sheet to the letter, you know how we are with our set ups etc, they were kept the same as other tree frogs who are totally fine. It's a bit of a relief- terrible as it is- that other people have also had problems.


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

It doesn't sound horrible, it's a relief to know it's not something we did. Now I've heard of 3 people having the same issue. 

I made the assumption it wasn't down to anything I did, because I too followed the care sheet to the letter, and one was ill the day after getting him. I thought at first stress, but when it passed away the very next day, there had to be some underlying condition. 

Now I've got another one that looks like it's on its way out 

I've been begging and pleading with my husband for two years to let me get some White's, and he finally caved in and said yes a month before Doncaster. I've been looking forward to having some happy little tree frogs for so long, and now I've only got the one that's doing well (for now). Hopefully he stays that way. But I am less than pleased.


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

He passed away during the night 

Only have one frog left now, and hopefully he stays healthy!


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm really sorry to hear of your loss. Since I have still not received a reply from Pollywog I have sent the following today -

"Hi again,

I’m disappointed not to have received a response from you yet, especially since I have found out two other people who purchased these frogs from you at the Doncaster show have also had their frogs die. This seems to be conclusive evidence that their habitat was not to blame.

I realise it would be too expensive for you to send replacements so would be willing to accept a refund, which can be paid as a gift via paypal to my email address. 

Thank you,"


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

It's awful that these poor frogs have had to suffer like this. I've decided to take a more direct approach with Pollywog and have sent the following email this morning;


"Hi again,

I’m disappointed not to have received a response from you yet, especially since I have found out two other people who purchased these frogs from you at the Doncaster show have also had their frogs die. This seems to be conclusive evidence that their habitat was not to blame.

I realise it would be too expensive for you to send replacements so would be willing to accept a refund, which can be paid as a gift via paypal to my email address. 

Thank you,"


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## Sweetie (Nov 19, 2011)

Oh dear  I'm sorry for your loss too, good luck with the other little guy!


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Hi,

I have now had contact from Pollywog. Apparently they don't sell livestock at shows and the frogs were the personal breeding of one of their staff members and nothing to do with them. They passed on my emails to Andrew today, who has now refunded for the two dead frogs (he also offered to replace if I was going to the Doncaster show in November).


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Hi,

Thought I'd let you know I have now had contact from Pollywog. Apparently they don't sell livestock at shows and the frogs were the personal breeding of one of their staff members and nothing to do with them. They passed on my emails to Andrew today, who has now refunded for the two dead frogs (he also offered to replace if I was going to the Doncaster show in November).
He couldn't offer an insight into what had happened - said they could have got too cold that day but without seeing the frogs was difficult to tell - but said he had been contacted by someone else who had similar problems with frogs purchased on the same day, although the ones he took back with him are all fine.
I'm still gutted about the two we lost but remain hopeful for the third little one.


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

I got a similar email from him today as well. Although he didn't say anything to me about the frogs being bred by a staff member.

Probably will be going to Doncaster if I can convince a friend to give me a lift, so I'll have a chat with him there. 

The other little guy (Rimmer) is still doing well, and had more crickets tonight


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

At least you've now had a response and something is being done. Although I'm not so sure about Pollywog not selling frogs at shows as they had their peppermint pac man frogs at the Doncaster show earlier in the year.......


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

It smells strange this story about the vendor blaming its employees for selling the frogs and distancing its self from the dead frogs.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

Right, let me clear this up. I am Andrew. I own Pollywog but when I attend a show I am there personally as myself on my own behalf with animals that are bred personally by myself. There is nothing strange about it. I am not trying to pass the blame or cover anything up.

When a person purchases an animal from me (Andrew) at a show they are provided with a receipt as proof of purchase, on that receipt is my name & personal contact details including my own personal telephone number so if the purchaser has a problem with the animal they purchased they are able to contact me directly. Everybody & I mean everybody gets given a receipt with their animals.

Now if the purchaser decides to ignore said receipt and try to contact me in another way such as by e-mailing one of my businesses where the e-mails are regularly answered by people other than myself or by leaving messages on a forum that I haven't logged into in over 6 months then of coarse they are going to experience delays in things happening.

I must point out that in all the years I've been doing shows I have never come across another vendor that provides a receipt for their animals. 

In general I do not provide a guarantee on live amphibians any further than the live arrival guarantees offered by my company, this is due to the nature of amphibians and once they are out of my care I can not control what happens to them such as incorrect husbandry or exposure to contaminants. However those of you who have actually dealt with me over the years will know I'm a very fair person and am always willing to discuss things.

So far I have only had contact from 2 people about White's Treefrogs purchased at Doncaster, this represents a very small percentage of the animals I sold at that show and as such I can at this time only presume they are isolated incidents. If anyone else does have a problem with an animal purchased they have my phone number on the receipt they were given and are welcome to call me to discuss the matter.


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

Thanks for the response on here 

Yes, I still have my receipt(s) - still have the one for the Pacman I purchased at Kempton as well. Before Donny, I had emailed and called about reserving frogs, and got a response quick enough, so I continued to do that. That and I suck on the phone when talking to people down South, the accent still escapes me, heh.

The fecal from the vet came back clean, so still not sure what the problem was. I'm a smoker, but don't smoke near any of animals. Didn't use aerosols around them, used only bottled water in the dish and for misting. I bought a few packets of tiny crickets from the show and have been feeding them to the frogs, I'm wondering if that was contaminated in some way. 

The other frog is still doing fine and eating, looking lively. So fingers crossed for him!

Here's a few pics I took yesterday...










And his butt


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## rimonex (Dec 21, 2010)

Mainly out of curiosity but were the affected froglets blue phase Whites you got?

I seem to remember but haven't been able to find the post about something similar with a blue phase whites that sadly died having difficulty shedding.


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

They are the blue phase White's. The last one that passed away I noticed shedding right before it got ill. Is this a specific problem with the morph?


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

our other ones still doing fine


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

Our last frog has just fallen ill with the same symptoms 

He refused food the last two days, and as of last night has gotten bloated and gone limp just like the other two. 

There seems to be some correlation between shedding and getting ill, as the last frog started showing symptoms during that time as did this one. I'm not sure about the first as we only had him 48 hours before he passed.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

Chromisca said:


> Our last frog has just fallen ill with the same symptoms
> 
> He refused food the last two days, and as of last night has gotten bloated and gone limp just like the other two.
> 
> There seems to be some correlation between shedding and getting ill, as the last frog started showing symptoms during that time as did this one. I'm not sure about the first as we only had him 48 hours before he passed.


hi hows this little one doing?


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## Chromisca (Sep 28, 2010)

Unfortunately, he passed away recently. Whatever it is, took him quick like it did the other two. 

I wanted to get a necropsy done, but my vet said they'd have to send it out and it would cost about £200, which I don't really have kicking around. So I emailed a specialist, who says based on the symptoms it sounds like an Aeromonas or Pseudomonas bacterial infection. Although this is not a definitive answer as he can't see the frogs, but based it on the symptoms and that two other people have had the same problem with some of their frogs, this was his best "educated guess" so to speak. 

I'm going to the Doncaster show again next month, so hopefully I'll find something there. But this experience on a whole has been absolutely devastating.


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## Terrarium Supplies (May 12, 2012)

Chromisca said:


> But this experience on a whole has been absolutely devastating.


Very sorry to hear about the outcome! Could all parties involved not get a combined pot together and scrape up the £200? I know that I'd want to know why so many of this stock has suffered the same dismal fate.


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## bobo1 (Jan 2, 2010)

so sorry to hear this, i hoped he might have pulled through. ive since heard of someone else that had the exact same happen to theres sadly.


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