# Slow worms



## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

I was just reading through the lizard classifieds and found this thread http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizard-classifieds/118584-slow-worms-anguis-fragilis-sale.html 

What exactly is the status of slow worms and them being sold?



> *Conservation status
> *Slow worms are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 from being killed, injured or sold and are less common than they used to be.


Does this apply to CB slow worms too?

I'm not interested in buying, just want to know from people much more knowledgeable than myself.


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

4th generation onwards can be sold.


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## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> 4th generation onwards can be sold.


How would you prove that they are?


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

With great difficulty, Mark.

Ideally you'd need your adults chipped, photographic proof of which animals came from what parents... but since slow worms don't have amazingly distinctive markings, not like corns or beardies, it'd be difficult to prove that THIS little silver neonate grew into THAT brown and copper adult female.


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## bluetongued (Apr 25, 2007)

This is exactly what I would like to know...how to proove they are 3rd gen??

My idea would be to contact which ever governing body who regulates this and ask them to come and verify your animals...state you will be breeding and have them follow the project with you giving written proof..etc.

Captive breeding of slow worms has to be a good thing and encouraged I would think....if there were millions of captive bred animals surely animals taken from the wild would stop (We would hope).

I will google info in a bit just want to know if anyone has had experiance keeping them and what requirements they need feeding, husbandry ect.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Lucifus said:


> 4th generation onwards can be sold.


Crikey - it started off on these forums as 2nd generation, then 3rd generation, now 4th generation! Can't wait to see what generation you can sell in 2 year's time!.

But seriously, as on the other thread and many before it, I've seen nothing in policy, advice or law to suggests that 1st generation cannot be sold.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

> I've seen nothing in policy, advice or law to suggests that 1st generation cannot be sold.


The Wildlife & Countryside Act (1981) states that a license is not required to sell or keep them if Captive Bred. Their definition of captive bred states that the parents of the animals being sold / kept must also have been born in captivity.
I don't know if or how this will now change under the new Habitats Directive.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

pollywog said:


> The Wildlife & Countryside Act (1981) states that a license is not required to sell or keep them if Captive Bred. Their definition of captive bred states that the parents of the animals being sold / kept must also have been born in captivity.
> I don't know if or how this will now change under the new Habitats Directive.


I wasn't aware that there was a new 'Habitats Directive' due. There were changes to the Habitats Regulations last year but remember we're talking about WCA species here.

I haven't seen a specific definition of 'captive-bred' in relation to herps on any legislation, but as i have posted on another thread, section 9(5) prohibits trade of 'wild animals' listed in Schedule 5. 'Wild animal' is later defined in S. 27(1) as '...any animal (other than a bird) which is or (before it was killed or taken) was living in the wild'. This implies that F1 offspring are legal to sell, as they were never living in the wild. 

Furthermore, is you extrapolate from birds to other animals, S. 27(2) says ' A bird shall not be treated as bred in captivity for the purposes of this Part unless its parents were lawfully in captivity when the egg was laid.'


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

so they have to be second generation then.


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

No, 1st generation (F1 - 1st Filial ) i.e the sons and daughters


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

im confused (easily confused:lol2 Pollywog said that the parents of the snake must also be captive bred surely that would make the legal offspring at least 2nd generation?


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Perhaps see what Pollywog thinks of my reasoning - I am happy to stand corrected.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

It's been a couple of years since I really looked into the legislation but Natural England the people that provide the licenses for keeping & selling native Reptiles & Amphibians stated that a license is not required if the animal being sold/kept were born in captivity and bred from animals who themselves were born in captivity.


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## pollywog (Oct 6, 2005)

Another thing to remember is that there have been imports of WC Slow Worms over the last couple of years which have been cleared by DEFRA so stock originating from these would be legal so long as they can be traced back to the importer.


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## sean k (Dec 20, 2007)

*slow worms*

when i asked kent wildlife trust they said sloworms are not allowed to be sold at all.


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## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

sean k said:


> when i asked kent wildlife trust they said sloworms are not allowed to be sold at all.


Thats wrong.

If you can prove they are CB, Fragilis can be sold from F1, the parents could be collected gravid an hour, week or month prior to giving birth and the babies would be legal to sell as long as they had been born in captivity.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

This issue has been discussed before. The Wildlife and Countryside Act makes NO mention about 1st, 2nd, or any other generation. It simply refers to animals in a wild state prior to capture. This means that providing what you are selling was born in captivity then it is perfectly legal to sell. It is only illegal if you go and capture a slow worm, or any other native species, then try to flog it. I have spoken to DEFRA about this to get a definitive answer, which is the explanation I have given. Providing it was born in captivity, it can be sold.
Of course, proving this could be problematic, but in terms of the legislation, the parents do not need to be captive bred, all that is required is that the animal offered for sale was born in captivity.


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## welshgaz (Dec 12, 2005)

Proving its CB is hard yes but then proving its WC would be as well...


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## Matt Harris (Aug 21, 2007)

Animals for sale would be assumed to be wild, unless it could be proven otherwise. The burden of proof would be with the defendant.


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