# Breeding Responsibly



## Saladmander (12 mo ago)

Couldn't think of a better title.

Not an attack or complain thread, just interesting discussion/debate.

Do you think breeders - whether they produce one clutch or a hundred - should be more responsible for the animals they produce?
Especially considering many of these animals are capable of living for several decades.

If you breed, do you keep track of the animals that you produce/sell for their whole lives, or is it more about moving on surplus animals and wash your hands of them?


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## StuG (Nov 4, 2009)

No


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

It's impossible to keep track... especially if you sell the "surplus" stock to a shop as you have no idea who they sell them on to (and I don't think they would be able to tell you due to current privacy laws).


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## liam peel (Sep 26, 2011)

To a degree i agree that they should be more responsible.
I'm coming from more of a don't breed animals that have a high chance/certainty of health issues or death. 
I expect the breeder to have given the "surplus" stock the same care as they would the animals they are keeping.

I would also like if possible for a breeder that has mis sold an animal (wrong morph or sex) to correct the issue. If I buy let's say a 4 gene snake and the breeder thought it was xyz genre, later find out theybwere incorrect id like to think if they could reach out to me and let me know. Naturally I know that may not be doable but if they had records and contact details it becomes a little easier.


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

liam peel said:


> To a degree i agree that they should be more responsible.
> I'm coming from more of a don't breed animals that have a high chance/certainty of health issues or death.
> I expect the breeder to have given the "surplus" stock the same care as they would the animals they are keeping.
> 
> I would also like if possible for a breeder that has mis sold an animal (wrong morph or sex) to correct the issue. If I buy let's say a 4 gene snake and the breeder thought it was xyz genre, later find out theybwere incorrect id like to think if they could reach out to me and let me know. Naturally I know that may not be doable but if they had records and contact details it becomes a little easier.


 Part of the problem is that a lot of breeders are breeding multiple gene animals and it's impossible to state if the animal has XYZ genes or XZ as the Y gene can only be proven out when the animal is bred. Often the would sell the animal as an XZ possibly Y gene rather than an XYZ. I have a BEL form a Lesser x Lesser Pastel and without having a full DNA test to see if the pastel is present I have no way to visually determine if the snake is carrying the gene as the snake is just a bright white snake, and pastel wouldn't show up under UV. The only way I would know if Pastel is present is if I bread her to something else and a pastel gets thrown out in the clutch. Obviously with hets the matter is more vague as there is no real guarantee that a gene is present.

Throwing this back to the OP - what do you mean by "more responsibility"? - When in my care I provide them with the same care and attention as all my other reptiles. When I sell a snake it comes with full documentation with reports showing all the feedings, shedding and growth, along with details of the hatchlings parentage. What the purchaser does after I have no control over. Naturally if a private individual took one of my snakes and ran into problems and contacted me for advice I would help, but when it comes to selling to trade I would expect that responsibility to fall on the retailer once they have sold the snake to a new owner.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Saladmander said:


> Do you think breeders - whether they produce one clutch or a hundred - should be more responsible for the animals they produce?


In terms of being careful who they sell them to; yes. As in checking the person is going to look after the animal properly. In terms of actual responsibility no. If you trust the buyer and the animal is gone, that's the end of it really. Personally I will also answer questions from buyers if they need help after purchase, and will actively respond to these ones over people that have never had anything from me. 



Saladmander said:


> If you breed, do you keep track of the animals that you produce/sell for their whole lives, or is it more about moving on surplus animals and wash your hands of them?


Sort of, I have a good memory for stuff like that, but I will be honest it is very species dependent.


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## loxocemus (Sep 2, 2006)

as has been said, once the courier picks them up, as long as their A1+ then ur responsibility ends.

i had a hard time coming to terms with an animal i had produced potentially suffering a terrible death after been passed pillar to post, to the point where breeding held virtually no interest for me, that was a mental block that ruined the hobby for me.

the very low litter size species interest me now, animals as fertile as hogs or house's genuinely scare me with thoughts of reproducing them. of course u can freeze eggs but that's strikes me as "you should have bought another species "

u see the panic in the classifieds all the time "am i going to be left with these", and they have a fire sale within a week of posting the ad with no interest 

rgds
ed


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## Elly66 (Feb 27, 2021)

No matter what animal you're breeding, it should always be done responsibly. 
The animals health comes tops and careful research on breeding, genetic disorders and saleability are a must. You need to factor in the care of the babies and if you're able to keep them if you can't find homes. 

When I've bred animals and sold them, I've had strict rules. I ask lots of questions for those wanting any of the animals and expect questions from those people. If I have any doubts, then I refuse the sale. I offer 7 days return/refund to allow the buyer to get a vet check done. I'm happy to discuss any issues and concerns long after the sale and would help as much as possible if the buyer found themselves no longer able to keep the animal. 

I also do the same when buying animals and have walked away from many a breeder. I always ask for return/refund time so I can get the animals vet checked ( unless breeder has proof they've already been checked recently).


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

For me it is all about building up a relationship with any future 'client' - what I mean is it is not a case of here is the cash and the animal is gone. Lengthy communications back and forth go on in terms of the animal itself, its parents, how it is being kept, how I keep the adults etc - this helps weed out those who are not suitable. It is almost a form of vetting by way of a casual conversation. 

I also provide a care sheet, feeding records and quarantine information for all my animals (all of which I have written myself - not a google regurgitation) but I do periodically message a client to ask how the animal is getting on as this can often lead to repeat business as in what I have planned for the coming breeding season so it serves as a benefit to me too.

One such client had a snake off me that fed for 5 months AFTER I sold it but then suddenly went off food for 4 months - he reached out and despite assistance via telephone calls it still wouldn't eat. I reached out to a friend who was closer geographically than me, to assist with getting the animal feeding again (with the other persons say so) - turns out the guy had changed the vivarium and the animal no longer felt secure - after changing the enclosure again the animal started feeding - I wasn't obliged to do this but the person was so thankful that they purchased another snake from me the following year so it was a win win for everyone.

I like to remain in contact with people and since the number of babies I sell is so small, this is relatively easy for me to do.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> For me it is all about building up a relationship with any future 'client' - what I mean is it is not a case of here is the cash and the animal is gone. Lengthy communications back and forth go on in terms of the animal itself, its parents, how it is being kept, how I keep the adults etc - this helps weed out those who are not suitable. It is almost a form of vetting by way of a casual conversation.


Definitely, and with practice it is quite easy to determine from someone's first few messages if they are the right person for the animal. Many people aren't, at least for the stuff I am breeding. I could definitely just list a few questions that shouldn't be asked, and are immediate red flags.
Here's 3:
what is the best price
what is the temperament
what is the weight

All of these questions make me immediately not want to deal with the person. As opening questions I mean, they can be asked, just they are bad first questions. 



Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I also provide a care sheet, feeding records and quarantine information for all my animals (all of which I have written myself - not a google regurgitation) but I do periodically message a client to ask how the animal is getting on as this can often lead to repeat business as in what I have planned for the coming breeding season so it serves as a benefit to me too.
> 
> One such client had a snake off me that fed for 5 months AFTER I sold it but then suddenly went off food for 4 months - he reached out and despite assistance via telephone calls it still wouldn't eat. I reached out to a friend who was closer geographically than me, to assist with getting the animal feeding again (with the other persons say so) - turns out the guy had changed the vivarium and the animal no longer felt secure - after changing the enclosure again the animal started feeding - I wasn't obliged to do this but the person was so thankful that they purchased another snake from me the following year so it was a win win for everyone.
> 
> I like to remain in contact with people and since the number of babies I sell is so small, this is relatively easy for me to do.


I'll be honest I rarely message to ask how an animal is doing, though I will help if someone reaches out, and will then check on them going forward. I had this recently with someone who purchased an Olive Python from me 2 years ago who has developed lesions on its skin, they took it to the vet and the vet wasn't sure of the cause but prescribed the correct treatment. The buyer messaged me to ask if I had any thoughts on what caused it as they vet couldn't answer the questions and they didn't want the animal to get them again.
I asked if they had recently changed the heating or setup and if it had a metal cage guard, it turns out they had. The snake had been hugging the cage guard as it was cold and the guard had scratched the animal. Olive skin is very thin and delicate. The animal is fine.

I get a lot of repeat business from the same people, I think this is partially due to my animals fitting a certain niche that often if you like 1 of the species I have, you'll probably like some other ones. Also I am actually quite nice, seriously I am.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

This is the thing though, I often build up a 'FB Friendship' with these people so message them a couple of months down the line to ask about their own breeding plans and just happen to mention how the animal they purchased from me is doing.

I would like to think that when certain species are being spoken about my name* enters the conversation - Angolan Pythons or Egyptian Tortoises for example so tend to find that babies are spoken for even before they are advertised.



*I am not trying to be big headed when I say this but I have put in a great deal of effort in sourcing the absolute best animals to form the basis of my breeding projects so of course I am proud of them and do like to post pictures of them 'doing their thing' on social media.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

The one question I always hate when selling offspring is "can I have a photo".
If you are genuinely interested in buying, then you should know what it looks like!!!!!!
I get it for certain morphs, or species that have natural variation, but not for a species itself.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

ian14 said:


> The one question I always hate when selling offspring is "can I have a photo".
> If you are genuinely interested in buying, then you should know what it looks like!!!!!!
> I get it for certain morphs, or species that have natural variation, but not for a species itself.


100%, though I do understand wanting to see an animal before buying as it can save an awkward interaction when you see it in real life and it's condition is poor. 

My least favourite is still "what is the temperament?"
If you truly wanted the species you wouldn't care what the temperament is! It's also probably a baby, so it's nervous and scared, like all babies. Its not a thing that factors in to a purchase for me, often I'll ask "how bad is it?" So I know how to behave when I open the bag, but I've usually already paid by this point.

"What is the best price?" The best price for me is higher than the one I'm advertising it for as more is always best, though i will have priced the animal accordingly not just pulled a number out of thin air. What you mean is "can I have it cheaper?" And the answer is usually no unless you want a few. If you really wish to haggle make a counter offer with an actual number, don't ask for the best price for yourself, as that is rude.

Finally, "what is the weight?"
I have no idea, does it look thin to you? I don't weigh my animals unless they are sick and need a medication dose calculated. Its unnecessary to weigh them, pointless stress, I can tell by its age and appearance if it's big enough to breed, I'm not a royal breeder.


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

ian14 said:


> The one question I always hate when selling offspring is "can I have a photo".
> If you are genuinely interested in buying, then you should know what it looks like!!!!!!
> I get it for certain morphs, or species that have natural variation, but not for a species itself.


I confess Ian, I am one of those annoying people who ask for photos, and usually of the parents as well 😂🤣

Tom very kindly shared photos of parents of a spotted python (I hadn’t even bought the snake directly from Tom!).

I would like to think I would try to stay in contact with everyone buying any offspring from me.

I have rehomed two BRBs and so far been able to get updates 😁

A surprising number of breeders I have bought from have not been interested in updates, but most do maintain an interest.

Andy


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## Central Scotland Reptiles (Nov 23, 2008)

Here is a question to add to the discussion - do you think as breeders we have a responsibility to keepers 20-30 years from now?

What I mean is should we care that we are perpetuating poor feeders or animals with genetic deformities? Should we care that siblings are being bred together just because to get an unrelated animal would require effort?

I think we undoubtedly do have a responsibility to future keepers.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Swindinian said:


> I confess Ian, I am one of those annoying people who ask for photos, and usually of the parents as well 😂🤣
> 
> Tom very kindly shared photos of parents of a spotted python (I hadn’t even bought the snake directly from Tom!).


Haha! Not a problem, to be fair I have a lot of pictures of my adult snakes on my phone 😂 Especially during breeding season, as I can then refer back to them and the date the image was taken to track progress.


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Here is a question to add to the discussion - do you think as breeders we have a responsibility to keepers 20-30 years from now?
> 
> What I mean is should we care that we are perpetuating poor feeders or animals with genetic deformities? Should we care that siblings are being bred together just because to get an unrelated animal would require effort?
> 
> ...


Good question. I think as a breeder you have the responsibility to ensure your animals are the healthiest they can be, within the realms of possibility. This in turn will have a positive effect on the future. 

Yes unrelated is always good however with certain species, for example Australian animals, the captive genepool is so small anyway that it makes very little difference. What I mean is in my opinion people can be too heavily invested in finding unrelated. A sibling to sibling pairing once is basically fine, if you then breed their babies together and then do this another x amount of times, this is poor behaviour. Though this is exactly how linebred morphs/colours are often produced, for example Bluer Nosy Be Panther chameleons (which are particularly unhealthy). I would argue that the Pastel royal thing you've highlighted Fraser could actually be a case of this, it may be better that they are healthy and rubbish looking, rather than fluorescent and unhealthy....

In terms of holdbacks I personally choose good feeders as the number 1 criteria for keeping a baby, though this is helped by the fact I don't really do morphs so a clutch are almost identical. A friend has been doing this for over 10 years and has found that with certain species that often the babies are awkward to get feeding, keeping the best feeders and using them as future breeders has meant over time the babies have become easier and easier to get going. This is helpful for future keepers, but it is in all honesty a predominantly selfish act, as it is less work for the breeder. 

Essentially my answer is that being a sensible breeder will have a beneficial effect on the future.


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## Swindinian (May 4, 2020)

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Here is a question to add to the discussion - do you think as breeders we have a responsibility to keepers 20-30 years from now?
> 
> What I mean is should we care that we are perpetuating poor feeders or animals with genetic deformities? Should we care that siblings are being bred together just because to get an unrelated animal would require effort?
> 
> I think we undoubtedly do have a responsibility to future keepers.


Great topic Fraser - Absolutely! 
I feel there is such a permissive attitude to sibling pairings, everyone seems to do it, few seem to question or challenge it?

I have some beautiful Tully locale jungle carpets, but they are all siblings.

I am strongly inclined to outbreed with other jungles, despite this potentially causing less phenotypic uniformity (the colours and patterns will likely be more washed out and not as vibrant), and they would lose the locality status, so potentially command a lesser asking price, so it does not make financial sense or benefit me personally to adopt this approach.
However, I have had no success sourcing less directly related Tullys, and they are purported to be a small group to start with.

For me, pairing siblings would be a last resort. It’s not that I would never consider it, but it just seems to be done too often, and I am not at ease with this.

I would love to see more collaboration to maintain genetic diversity, rather than just chase visual goals.

I have been more successful getting diversity for my Brazilian Rainbow boas, with boas from seven different breeders. I don’t know the heritage beyond the parents, but I can at least discern phenotypic variation, which hopefully reflects underlying genetic diversity.

Andy


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

ian14 said:


> The one question I always hate when selling offspring is "can I have a photo".
> If you are genuinely interested in buying, then you should know what it looks like!!!!!!
> I get it for certain morphs, or species that have natural variation, but not for a species itself.


I've always asked to see a photo of the actual snake for two reasons. The first (as you mention) is to see what it actually looks like as there are so many variations of the morphs as each snake is an individual, and appeals to me. There may be a trend that an individual likes within a combo or you may see an example of a morph (or even something striking in an bog standard wild type) that appeals to you more than its siblings. In my last clutch I had two single gene lessers, but one was strikingly different to the other in colouration. Granted it may seem silly asking for a picture of a BEL as a white snake is a white snake, but for anything with patterns or colouration I would like to see what's on offer first. 

The second is to confirm that the seller is genuine. Only one snake in my collection has been purchased without seeing the snake first. I tend to pay cash on collection, and visit the seller rather than deal in a local Tesco car park.

But as a seller, I think a picture is essential in listing that animal... it saves interested people asking for one, and I think it helps promote the listing.


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