# Neuro Problems in Enigma's...still not happy



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

I posted a similar thread a while back about my Enigma's weird behaviour and the idea that it may be down to neurological problems as many forums have debated over the past few months or so.

Firstly (for whoever didn't see the original thread), my enigma's hunting was terrible - she could sense the movement but her head would almost dart in the opposite direction. It would take her almost three or four goes at a mealworm before she caught it or gave up.

Lately, my Enigma has started to walk round in circles, on the spot. At first I thought she was trying to grab her tail, only to realise she wasn't interested in her tail at all. It's almost like she's trying to get her bearings but at the same time its like she's in a trance...

Has anyone done any additional reading on neuro probs in enigmas since last time I posted this? Does anyone have any ideas on the subject?

Would be really happy if I could hear your ideas.


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I posted a similar thread a while back about my Enigma's weird behaviour and the idea that it may be down to neurological problems as many forums have debated over the past few months or so.
> 
> Firstly (for whoever didn't see the original thread), my enigma's hunting was terrible - she could sense the movement but her head would almost dart in the opposite direction. It would take her almost three or four goes at a mealworm before she caught it or gave up.
> 
> ...


i have heard about this.. awful.. 
down own and wont own an engima, but i have a gecko who was a rescue, 
who has brain damage, nerve damage, and muscle wasting has just set in... who sounds and has similar things to yours, he will i think have to be put down soon, he just gets so frustrated just not fair,


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> i have heard about this.. awful..
> down own and wont own an engima, but i have a gecko who was a rescue,
> who has brain damage, nerve damage, and muscle wasting has just set in... who sounds and has similar things to yours, he will i think have to be put down soon, he just gets so frustrated just not fair,


yep my enigma gets frustrated too...when she walks away from a mealie that blatently isnt moving - it breaks my heart. So sorry to hear about your rescue hun x


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i have tried hand feeding, he bites it over and over again,. i then kill it, and stil cannot do it, its just awful to see, 


Rainwater said:


> yep my enigma gets frustrated too...when she walks away from a mealie that blatently isnt moving - it breaks my heart. So sorry to hear about your rescue hun x


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Is yours a bell enigma by any chance?


----------



## beege_3 (May 20, 2005)

My male Bell's used to have these exact problems - but now he is a healthy ha[[y chappy. I haven't changed anything at all.. so I don't know what helped him.

Good luck in finding a "cure".


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Enigma Neurological Problems.

I've been doing research into the possible enigma neurological problems and I have been gathering information to prove what I'm saying is correct. Some may think I'm just worried about the market because I do not breed enigma morphs etc, but that is not the case I have been considering breeding enigma morphs for quite some time but I refuse to put on the market more leopard geckos with neurological problems or carriers of the genetic defect. I have noticed that with many enigma breeders here in the UK and the EU seem to hide the fact of these Neurological problems thankfully the states aren't as concerned about their pockets. So it came to my attention to start a discussion regarding this problem which has been circulating within the reptile comunity about the enigma leopard gecko. A few breeders of enigmas in the UK have been hatching enigma's with the signs of neurological problems but do not wish to declare it to the public because of the sake of business which seems to be a major problem. Because of customers purchasing the enigma's to continue breeding even with neurological problems. All because they are not made aware of this. Anyway a statement made by an American on another forum said this,

"Neurological abnormalities: Only one of my original Enigmas exhibited the "dizzy" condition, and she didn't develop it until she was almost six months old. I've seen very similar neurological malfunctions in "circus mice" which was determined to be the result of inbreeding. Whether or not out-crossing will reduce or eliminate such motor skill handicaps I can't say. I exchanged the afflicted female for a different one, which I regret in some ways because after realizing how common the problem is, I would have liked to see how it progressed. To the best of my knowledge, none of the Enigmas I've produced thus far exhibit this condition, but since it seems to develop as the gecko matures I suppose it's possible. (I think I would have been informed if it happened though )" 

Also quoted from a forum once again which bought to my attention problems within the enigma traits

"Of the babies we got from our Enigma het Bell (bred to a MSB), the non-Enigmas grew at the fastest pace and then the Bell Enigmas which grew much slower. We hatched one Mack Snow Bell Enigma who would not take food, had problems shedding, eye infections, etc. and and did not make it. It just showed us that as a greater number of genetic traits combined, the less hearty the geckos became."

Another quote from a forum

"Neurological issues can pop up for a variety of reasons of course, but there is a recessive gene in corn snakes that causes a condition called stargazing. If this behavior is also caused by a recessive gene, we should be very careful about breeding individuals with this trait or we could potentially have this problem spread through every morph. Outcrossing will hide the trait temporarily. If it is a simple recessive trait, it will eventually start popping up all over."

It seems the first generation of enigma's didn't show any neurological problems until crossing into other morphs or producing the red eyed enigma's quote from another forum " I have noticed no circling or anything of that nature at all with my male Enigma Het Bell I got from *****. I have hatched two Red Eye Enigma offspring from the one breeding I have done with him so far and both of those babies show the circling action, one more than the other."

Quoted from another forum

Experiences

********** - Enigma (no type mentioned, but normal I guess) walked in circles. This female's enigma children (4) and grandchildren (6) all show circle walking, but it's less evident.

********** - Normal enigma showing no issues.
********** - Enigma (no type mentioned) walks in circles, shows uncoordination and tremors.

********** - RE enigma has poor eyesight and shows over sensitivity to light.

********** - Has three enigmas (Tremper enigma, MS enigma and normal enigma). None of the have issues.

********** - Normal enigma, showing no symptoms.

********** - Hatched over a hundred enigmas, a little percentage of them showed issues.

********** - RE enigma has walked in circles in the past.

********** - 2 RE enigmas and 2 normal enigmas, none of them have issues.

********** - RE enigma shows light sensitivity.

********** - Hatched RE enigmas, non-enigmas and MSB enigma from an enigma cross. Noticed slow growth in RE enigmas compared to their non-enigma siblings. MSB enigma was very weak and didn't survive. One of the RE enigmas shows circle walking that seems related to light sensitivity.

**************** - Hatched 10 enigmas (no type mentioned), some showed circling and light sensitivity.

********** - Had one enigma (no type mentioned) with issues that didn't devolope until she was 6 months old. To his knowledge, any offspring he has produced show no issues.

************* - RE enigma and normal enigma showing no issues.

********** - Normal enigma does not show any symptoms. RE enigma walks in circles, has poor eyesight, does not show over sensitivity to light.

********** - Normal enigma, no symptoms. Has hatched 2 RE enigmas that show circle walking that seems related to light sensitivity.


Possible causes of the problem

Nervous system

Pros - Neurological disorders cause animals from other species to walk in circles.

Cons - The sypmtoms aren't similar to other cases of neurological disorders in leopard geckos.

Light sensitivity

Pros - Some enigmas only show or increase the amount of circle walking when exposed to light. Symptoms like bad eyesight could be related to light sensitivity too.

Cons - Some enigmas show issues even if they aren't all that sensitive to light.

Accumulation of genetic traits

Pros - Enigmas combined with other genetic traits seem to be weaker than normal enigmas in general.

Cons - This doesn't happen in any other combination of traits in leopard geckos.

From the research I have done over the past few months regarding the enigma morph I have come to the conclusion that some of the enigma traits contain the neurological problems it seems to be a progressing problem over time more problems have come to light with the enigma's with outcrossing to other morphs and breeding enigma to enigma. 

So please lets have a discussion regarding this problem instead of a witch hunt and lets remain adults and continue as adults.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Also signs of Neurological Problems

The more specific neurological symptoms can include:

Ataxia
Head tilt
Seizures
Walking in circles.
Star gazing.
Convulsions
Twitching
Muscle fasiculations.
Tetany


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

lol, well i dont have as much time on my hands as you, but i have stayed away from enigmas, partly the price, partly these reports, and partly cos i dont like them...


...


having said that, I was tempeted by mark and kims pair of tango enigmas, but 750 each was just to much for me. but they were stunners, super hypo with just a arrow point on the head with the stunning enigma eyes !


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

my braindamaged/nerver damaged rescue leo, has all of these...

crazy.



Diablo said:


> Also signs of Neurological Problems
> 
> The more specific neurological symptoms can include:
> Ataxia
> ...


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> lol, well i dont have as much time on my hands as you, but i have stayed away from enigmas, partly the price, partly these reports, and partly cos i dont like them...
> 
> 
> ...
> ...


Lol Tony has you know yourself I have been contemplating the enigma morph but wanted to research more into the possible neurological problems which have been arrising in the genetic makeup its self. No doubt the Enigma breeders of the UK and the EU will think i'm rubbishing the enigma morph when in actual fact I do not think this morph should be continued to be bred until the problems are solved that is if they can be solved or if the damage has been done all ready.


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

super snow bell engima, someone just hatched on another forum... looks bloomign evil.... 

sorry to hijack the thread!

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/opalhop/ssbellenigbab1.jpg


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

I think that hatched a week or two ago, first of its kind !

lets hope the poor little thing has a good life to look forward to.

enigmas are just that, an enigma, no one really knows whats going on behind all the genetics, thats why they are such a strange yet (some think) attractive leo.


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> I think that hatched a week or two ago, first of its kind !
> 
> lets hope the poor little thing has a good life to look forward to.
> 
> enigmas are just that, an enigma, no one really knows whats going on behind all the genetics, thats why they are such a strange yet (some think) attractive leo.



yea, its gettign better though, spots are comming etc etc..

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/opalhop/SSBEweek3b.jpg

but with all these problems happening why would some one chooose one?...

ice, my leo, well he is gettgion worse, so much so we are thinking of maybe putting him down, which kills me, but.. its teh best thing to do...

so why create somthing which has a high possibilty that iit wont have a good life ahead of it?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Tony you are correct regarding no one actually knows what the genetic makeup of the enigma's are as of yet. 
But from what as been said and been shown with the number of defects in the gene itself show's theres still an awful lot to be done regarding this morph. More so with the neurological problems which seem to be a result of inbreeding then outcrossing and causing some problem with the brain. 
I will be continuing my research about this problem which is arising in a couple of places. 
A person on this forum who breeds enigma's as said on another forum that they have seen problems of circling etc within their adults and hatchlings.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

maybe some people are in denile, or just dont accept it, or that the reasons are not genetic, but seems a bit to coincidental to me.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Tony you are correct regarding no one actually knows what the genetic makeup of the enigma's are as of yet.
> But from what as been said and been shown with the number of defects in the gene itself show's theres still an awful lot to be done regarding this morph. More so with the neurological problems which seem to be a result of inbreeding then outcrossing and causing some problem with the brain.
> I will be continuing my research about this problem which is arising in a couple of places.
> A person on this forum who breeds enigma's as said on another forum that they have seen problems of circling etc within their adults and hatchlings.


so it could be that they became publicly available to fast maybe?


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i guess 


purejurrasic said:


> maybe some people are in denile, or just dont accept it, or that the reasons are not genetic, but seems a bit to coincidental to me.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> so why create somthing which has a high possibilty that iit wont have a good life ahead of it?


exactly what I said earlier and it bottles down to one thing - money. Think how many people buy enigmas and how much money they make. After all, they're an exciting new morph but people, like myself and others, didn't realise that these neuro problems could become so severe.

I could never breed enigmas even if I wanted to....it'd be like cruelty to create a gecko that seemed brain dead. What sort of life is that? I just hope my baby is going to be okay...she's too beautiful!


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> exactly what I said earlier and it bottles down to one thing - money. Think how many people buy enigmas and how much money they make. After all, they're an exciting new morph but people, like myself and others, didn't realise that these neuro problems could become so severe.
> 
> I could never breed enigmas even if I wanted to....it'd be like cruelty to create a gecko that seemed brain dead. What sort of life is that? I just hope my baby is going to be okay...she's too beautiful!


 why why why... i practically cry watch ice not able to eat or fend for himself, and well 'i knwo he isnt enigma' but has teh same symptoms. awful, just awful


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Pass on that one Tony but if they are in denile they shouldn't be because that would point to the fact they are only thinking of their pockets instead of the welfare of the leopard gecko itself. 
Personally I would recommend people cease outcrossing the enigma genes and breeding enigma to enigma but who's going to listen to me but thats just my opinion of course anyone can do what they please with their leopard geckos even if it causes more suffering for off spring. 

All I can say to people out there is be careful if your considering a Enigma morph simply because of the problems that are surfacing with neurological defects this may not affect all enigma's but it seems they are all carriers of this genetic defect considering they all came from one mishap.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> why why why... i practically cry watch ice not able to eat or fend for himself, and well 'i knwo he isnt enigma' but has teh same symptoms. awful, just awful


i cry just watching my blind geckos struggling to eat...but watching nairobi (my enigma) walk round in circles all day and stare into nowhere, it's so unnerving that I can't do anything to stop it happening.

Something needs to be done...and Diablo has done the right thing by letting us know the truth about what's happening to a lot of our Enigmas


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> so it could be that they became publicly available to fast maybe?


Hit the nail on the head Tony normally when a new morph is found they are normally proven out to have no problems etc for at least two generations or more before they release for public purchase and if any defects would of been found during that time the Original breeders could of thought of a way to make the lines even more pure than they thought. It seems everyone jumped on the band waggon and wanted the new in thing without it being tested first.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Hit the nail on the head Tony normally when a new morph is found they are normally proven out to have no problems etc for at least two generations or more before they release for public purchase and if any defects would of been found during that time the Original breeders could of thought of a way to make the lines even more pure than they thought. It seems everyone jumped on the band waggon and wanted the new in thing without it being tested first.


at least tremper keeps us in suspense for a reason eh!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> i cry just watching my blind geckos struggling to eat...but watching nairobi (my enigma) walk round in circles all day and stare into nowhere, it's so unnerving that I can't do anything to stop it happening.
> 
> Something needs to be done...and Diablo has done the right thing by letting us know the truth about what's happening to a lot of our Enigmas


Jenna - Is there anychance you could do a couple of video's for me of your enigma so I can start to compile enough evidence that there is a problem within the enigma genetics please. I have asked a couple of others to do so and asked some more people for permission to use their videos.


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

good luck with your little one, off to bed now....

here is my beautiful ice 

one side of his face is slipping now, muscle wasting...











Rainwater said:


> i cry just watching my blind geckos struggling to eat...but watching nairobi (my enigma) walk round in circles all day and stare into nowhere, it's so unnerving that I can't do anything to stop it happening.
> 
> Something needs to be done...and Diablo has done the right thing by letting us know the truth about what's happening to a lot of our Enigmas


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Jenna - Is there anychance you could do a couple of video's for me of your enigma so I can start to compile enough evidence that there is a problem within the enigma genetics please. I have asked a couple of others to do so and asked some more people for permission to use their videos.


No probs hun...I have a few on a cam so I'll dig those out and take a few new ones. She doesn't seem to mind the camera which is convenient. Anything else I can help with let me know!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> at least tremper keeps us in suspense for a reason eh!


Thats what happened with all of Ron's morphs he kept them back and made sure there wasn't any problems to the best of his knowledge. The only problems that have ever been found in one of he's new releases happened to be the giant morph which everyone knows the life span tends to be shorter than the average leopard gecko but thats not proven to be genetic.


----------



## rachel132002 (Dec 4, 2006)

Not read the whole thread but:

http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/vestibular/vestib.htm i just typed in vertigo as i know animals can get it and it threw out that website


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> No probs hun...I have a few on a cam so I'll dig those out and take a few new ones. She doesn't seem to mind the camera which is convenient. Anything else I can help with let me know!


That would be excellent Jenna. I will be posting on a few other forums to make people aware of the problems which are arising in the Enigma genetics at this present moment in time.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> That would be excellent Jenna. I will be posting on a few other forums to make people aware of the problems which are arising in the Enigma genetics at this present moment in time.


I'll help you...two voices are better than one eh


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I'll help you...two voices are better than one eh


Thank you chick you can use any of the information that I have provided when your posting


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Also signs of Neurological Problems
> 
> The more specific neurological symptoms can include:
> 
> ...


 
I have 5 of these and i have a serious neurological condition... but i do not have them all day every day 24/7.. i have used my condition to also find out what i can about neuro conditions in animals as this is an interesting if somewhat distressing subject.

it may be worth noting that after a decade of my own personal investigations as well as neuro testing and seizure specialists and attending an ataxia clinic in elngland the following.

I do not have these symtoms daily... however i have had them on and off intemittantly since i was 13 years of age ( i am 35 now)

at times i have recovered seemingly only to become very unwell again...

neurology is a difficult subejct.. by its very nature we cannot scan the internal parts of the brain yet where many neuro disfunctions take place.

this would be the same for any animal or reptile... it is only when death occurs and neuro dysfunction is considered as a cause that an examination of the internal areas of the brain can be carried out.

I have studied the ball spider pyhon traits of head wobble and also have been looking into the enigma characteristics only becuase both neurlogy AND reptiles interest me.

I appreciate that humans and geckos are not the same however neuro dysfunction in all animals produces very similar issues..

I suffer from both ataxia and dysphasia and at times i have severe muslce weakness although this is not every single day.

I also have wobbles.. which i see in the ball python and the enigma


My point is just because you cannot SEE this in an animal does not mean they are not suffering.. what goes on internally with neuro dysfunction is far greater than what people wil visibly see on the outside..

just because a person seems to be walkign ok doesnt mean they are not suffering severe confusion about their walking... just because someone is lifting a spoon to eat does not mean they do not stuggle to remember this action each time.. even though for almost everyone else this action is a second nature...

many times neurological issues do not show as physical symtoms.. confusion and cognitive memory functions are not necessarily visible so there may also be these issues up for consideration in any animal that is displying these traits..

perhaos also then the neuro dysfunctional animals are suffering far greater issues than the ones visually recognised..

it is worth thinking about although impossible to studypreperly as they cannot talk liek humans to explain whats goiong on

neuro issues are of course the most complicated in any species humans or animals..


and of coruse if humans were LINE bred or in-bred it would perhaps be apparant in our species too.

I commented a long time ago about the spiders bal pythons head wobble being affected by UV light.. which i stil believe to this day with all the tests i have carried out whilst holding various spider balls it is. Uv also affect a lot of humans with neuro issues .. they are usually extremely sensitive to uv.

I am not a scientist therefore cannot carry out measureing tests... 

It is perhaps paramount for the hobby to look into how many of these animals are having serious problems, mild problems and how many are developing them later than 6 months, before 6 months etc and also whether or not there is any way to build up a database for these symtoms.. if they do appear common..

I have had 10 years personal experince with neurological investigations and have travvled all over the Uk as my condition is extremely rare.

The reaon therefore i am genuinely interested in these neuro issues in animals is because mines are intermittant... whichis highly unusual with neuro conditions.. 

I have definate EEG connected seizures and sporadic ataxia.. as well as muscle weakness on one side of the face on differing days... these are not easy thing to talk about but i have used this info to also study and discuss neurological conditions in animals with various people , some in canada some in amwerica and the results of these discussions although not scientific are fascinating

so im wondering if these animals do infact degenerate are they having petis-mal seizures or mild seuzure activity in the brain..

and if they get " better" why also would that be..

the chances of females being aftected by hormones and pregnancy is also high as females secrete chemicals when gravid or prgnant that help heal leasions in the brain.. 

IN humans this is known as prolactin

perhaps a study of female enigmas before during and after pregnancy would be helpful also... but it may also be morally wrong as do we really want to be producing eggs from an unhealthy line.. and is it fair just to make scientific studies produce more eggs and babies that could and might be affected...???


I hope someone far more scientific and qualified than me can look into this..

I know my experience with neuro issues has caused fascination in me to look at it within other species...

it wil be extrmely sad if the breeding of these animals has gone so far as to create this issue.. which i know many think it has 

I commend you all for doing the right hting and highlighting this issue rather than just blindly continuing to breed for money..

this is really a very moral thing to do as many large breeders and small alike would rather ignore the neuro issues that seem to crop up ini morphs within the rep community and dsimiss the issues..

it seems thought hat the neuro issues in lizards display outwardly far more obviously than snakes.. due to their physical make-up...

but once again well done on re-thinking the strayergies here and pulling otgether on this very distressing issue


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Very interesting read Sparkle  

From what I have noticed with the enigma's its mainly females which have the problems. But it is arrising in males. 

Extensive research needs to be done with this morph and breeding needs to cease for the time being has the neurological problems are increasing when more generations are produced.

Whats everyones views on this?


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

it is common for females to be far more affected neurologically than males in most species...unless fo course the males have a specific male gentic pre-disposition.

females have chemicals and hormones to contend with... which if the brain is neurologically dysfunctional can cause issue..

female hormones will affect seizures greatly.. and if you female leo appears to be more affected at some times than others it may be worth recording when and working out what caused it..

perhaps video, photographs and also a daily record sheet might help build up a better picture of the variants here...

does exposure ti UV make it worse/better
does stimulation casue more problems..

if the brain is over stimulated... and for any animal with neuro issues over stimulation can be small movements small noises and changes int emps or light..

something that seems normal to another human or animal wil cause neuro issue animals to have what is known as a neuro crash.. at these times al symtoms become workse and they wil appear afterwards very tired and fatigued..

its a tough call

do the people with affected animals carry out small tests and maybe cause the animal distress.. or do we not..

I cant answer it must be nothing short of heartbreaking 

But without firther investigation with affcted animals we cant really build up a definitive picture.

and espeically at round 6 to 12 months in leos the females wil be affected hormonally thus causing issue within the brain..

hypothamalus dysfunction could also be present and it seems the putward symtoms look very attatched to the cerebellum of the brain..
can i ask if there seems to be any spinal deformity issues???


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

*I have noticed that with many enigma breeders here in the UK and the EU seem to hide the fact of these Neurological problems thankfully the states aren't as concerned about their pockets quote via diablo*


FIRST OF ALL HOW DARE YOU IMPLY THAT ENIGMA OWNMERS OVER HERE IN THE UK HIDE THE SO CALLED FACTS YOU SO SPEAK OF, HOW DARE YOU MAKE SUCH A INCORRECT STATEMENT YOU ARE BASICALLY CALLED ALL UK BREDERS WHO OWN ENIGMAS DISHONEST!!!!


FIRST OF ALL FROM SOMEONE WHO WAS ACTIVELY LOOKING TO BUY A ENIGMA YOU ARE QUICK ENOUGH TO TARNISH A MORPH YOU HAVE NOT OWNED.

ALOT OF THESE INTIAL FINDINGS IN ONLY A* FEW ENIGMAS WERE FROM THE VERY FIRST BREEDINGS.*

The morph as been worked with and now with new bloodlines these traits have lessened.
Blizzards are noterious for being nasty, supersnows for slow to grow all morphs show certain traits even in snakes these are not regarded as negative but more of the personality of the morph.

Re bell albinos show a light sensitvity not it is not unusual for a morphs with a bell albino base to show the same.
i have bell albinos and other geckos that will strike for a mealworm three or four times some are more accurate than others thats just the way it is, funny how no enigma owners are first to critise a morph they do not own!!!!!

my own bell enigma like many bell enigmas out there show no signs of neurological signs (if you can call light sensity neurological????) feeds fine and i am furious that you imply that breeders such as myself who have a excellent reputation would indeed breed a gecko less than healthy and sell to others with no regard other than my financial pocket.

I have never sold a gecko less than 100% healthy, i give continued advice and support and do not stop my comittment as a breeder the minute money exchanges hands.

From someone who reputation is less than perfect and who has yet alot to learn i sergest you step back and think before you put your'e hands on the keyboard,, you have created alot of problems in the past on here and yet again you let your'e mouth run away before you put your'e brain in gear.:bash:


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Mel you consider it being a personality of the morph it is not correct has in snakes the spider royal pythons have problems with head shaking let me guess thats personality yes ? When in fact its due to neurological problems. Also I know for A FACT that some UK breeders have neurological problems with their enigma breedings. 
For some strange reason Mel you have come across very agressive and immature. Yes you are correct I was actively looking to buy an enigma but after the extensive research I decided to stand back from this gene simply because of the facts stated in black and white. 
Also you stated "from someone who reputation is less than perfect" Is this what it balls down to is reputation I think not. You also state "who has alot to learn" I think you will be mistaken get your facts right before shouting your mouth off.

The main reason I've bought this to light is that no one is aware of the neurological problem until now. You all rubbished when rainwater made a post on it before.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Please refer to this thread http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/77720-young-enigma-keepers-leos.html for other dismissing the fact that Neurological problems in the enigmas.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

melanie hi..

I only posted here as i have studied neuro issues in humans and animals for years.. not scientifically but to get to the bottom of what was wrong with me.. as the specialists couldnt.. well i have now.. and it took a great deal of learning about the brain and neuro problems..

i looked at studies in humans and also mice and how traits can be passed on silently for generations only to pop up years alter etc..

the issue here is we dont know.. so we HAVE to be cautious surely..


im not necessarily glad that the outward traits are lessening.. this makes people feel safe.. thinking its going away... but what is truly going on underneath...i for one was not implying anyone specific was to blame here but i do feel these things need to be talked about and people who have had experiences need to club together...

I wonder though how we can be sure with MILD symtoms what we are passing on.. i guess its the same as with the spider ball pythins.. some show severe head wobble whilst others dont.. but how do we know whats happening on the inside.. its easy to forget that theres way more neuro issues that CANT be physically seen than can...

.. like severe fatigue and or conginitve memory problems.. in an animal these wil be even harder to guage.. as of course they cannot communicate verbally with us..


neuro isues are the most difficult ini humans to understand we cannot see the inside of the brain when subjects are alive..

some days you would meet me i can walk and talk normally.. others im sturggling to the point of collapse but what YOU see wil be the same.. a zany cheeky lass with a big smile.. inside though neurologically im exhausted..


these anomallies i believe also occur in reptiles and other animals..

PLEASE PLEASE donmt call them personality traits..

how can a neuro problem be personality..

if in fact its comofrtable to call an enigma showing LES neuro issue healthy thats worrying also.

so eventually we may produce enigmas with hardly any throwback outwardly to a few generations back..

BUT they still carry possibly the genetics.. which as far as i can see in 5 yrs time if were not careful wil be called
PERSONALITY 




I feel its a little bit short sighted to say that a slow growing morph is a personality trait...
i thin its more accurate for us to say,,

slow growing leucistic bearded dragons may concern us a little but we have no proof it is affecting them too much..

i for one would consider a leucistic that grew slowly as a trait ... I am intending on woning one hopefully in the next year or 2 so i dont in any way feel im too far into the DO NOT OWN ANYTHING BUT NOMALS group..

however we cant just say these things are personaility traits... there has to be reasons..

i really hope the enigma does not become a victin of the dilution of repsonisbility..

and in 5 years the enigmas [personality trait is

WOBBLY LEGS..

im not trying to argue here but it is a worry...


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Hey guys,

These issues are probably linked with inbreeding depression, brought on by intensive inbreeding to create certain morphs, and "testing" its genetics by back crossing to the parents.

We see positive results of inbreeding every day in the morphs we have come to know and love, but these severe negative effects are also common, when the inbreeding system does not have a chance to purge.

Sadly I would say that if this condition arose early in the creation of this enigma morph, then a very large proportion of subsequent generations will be carriers or affected.

Inbreeding depression is something ALL breeders should be aware of, and not swept under the carpet as it has been until now!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

All enigmas seem to carry this triat of neurological problems. Mel you said in your previous statement that the problems have lessened with outcrossing to other morphs etc if that is the case and what you have said is true how come people are having problems outcrossing the enigma gene? It does seem to be a problem with the genetic makeup of the enigma gene. Which needs either purifing to see if the problem can be solved or breeding need to cease until a solution is found.
I can garrentie to you that for certain that a member on these forums is breeding enigma's which neurological problems and is still selling them on even though they are fully aware of this problem but will dismiss it on open forums. Even though the person openly admitted they noticed circling etc with their enigmas.

Sparkle is correct it is a worry and something which needs looking into.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> These issues are probably linked with inbreeding depression, brought on by intensive inbreeding to create certain morphs, and "testing" its genetics by back crossing to the parents.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your imput glasgowgecko  

You are correct it has been swept under the carpet up until now and the problems do seem to have come from inbreeding.
The enigma gene came up in Mark and Kim bells breeding group from their bell albino's the do not understand how it happened but noticed it was something worth going with. Findings have been spoke about regarding the crossing of enigma to enigma where problems have arised more so than outcrossing to another morph, BUT the problem is still there. What it seems is that all enigma's are carriers of this genetic defect and expressed in certain ones some 6 months down the line if that is the case are all Enigma breeders going to old their enigma's until 8 months of age to make sure no neurological problems are there? Or are they going to dismiss the fact there is a problem ( that doesn't go out to all enigma breeders ) Its such a shame that a morph which seems as valuable as the enigma has defects within them.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> These issues are probably linked with inbreeding depression, brought on by intensive inbreeding to create certain morphs, and "testing" its genetics by back crossing to the parents.
> 
> ...


 AGREED


it makes sense if you see it this way


its a recessive trait to start with then as it becomes dominant the problems show..

the gentics switch and the initial generation has issues..

passing it on my dilute it but it cant turn it into a personality trait


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

In my opinion, as a geneticist, you should never breed an individual that has a negative phenotypic trait caused by inbreeding like this one. I don't want to sound preachy but these individuals do not occur in nature, at least for very long because they are incapable of surviving. Hence they are purged.

They seems from what people are saying, to be a large proportion of causes of this condition in the uk, now either all cases can be traced back to a single breeder here or further back in the states. Work would really need to be done to assess the linkage of these traits, but i would strongly advise against attempting to purify.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

*From the research I have done over the past few months regarding the enigma morph I have come to the conclusion that some of the enigma traits contain the neurological problems it seems to be a progressing problem over time more problems have come to light with the enigma's with outcrossing to other morphs and breeding enigma to enigma. 

*first of all the information you have read is based on personel opinion there has been no scientific study there are no facts it is based on opinions you have quoted off the gecko foum net only a few selected responses and not other breeders who have reported no such problem.
In fact seeing as you so openly critise a morph i surgest you actually talk to someone who knows better than anyone else about the morph the person who has worked with this morph and has had hundreds of them kellli at hiss geckos.
I myself have spoken to her and my enigma was bought from her she felt that this was not nerological and seemed to be a stress related disorder in some, i am sure she would be happy to listen to your'e claims on a morph you have not worked with especially if you state that you feel it is something that has been hidden.
The frst f1 morphs showed these signs however with the cross breeding and new blood lines these have been eradicated.
many of the first enigmas bred that showed signs were not bred and as responsible breeders this is always the case with any morph.


Re. MONEY 
noone has ever mentioned money infact the only person who mentions money is yourself time and time again and the so called price crash which is so strange for someone who doesn't own one... i was thinking perhaps it was a genuine concern for breeders in the uk who do own one however i now feel after the comments you made stating uk breeders are more concerned with their pockets that indeed it is a way of you trying to tarnish a reputation and tarnish a breeder here, if by stamping on others it is the only way you can be trecongnised then i am afraid diablo you won't be here for long!

Only time will tell!

you have upset and offend the many good breeders here in the uk and outside the uk with that comment!
not a clever thing to do!


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Thank you for your imput glasgowgecko
> 
> You are correct it has been swept under the carpet up until now and the problems do seem to have come from inbreeding.
> The enigma gene came up in Mark and Kim bells breeding group from their bell albino's the do not understand how it happened but noticed it was something worth going with. Findings have been spoke about regarding the crossing of enigma to enigma where problems have arised more so than outcrossing to another morph, BUT the problem is still there. What it seems is that all enigma's are carriers of this genetic defect and expressed in certain ones some 6 months down the line if that is the case are all Enigma breeders going to old their enigma's until 8 months of age to make sure no neurological problems are there? Or are they going to dismiss the fact there is a problem ( that doesn't go out to all enigma breeders ) Its such a shame that a morph which seems as valuable as the enigma has defects within them.


yes if people care enigma breeders wil hold back and observe their babies as they grow taking notes and making findings..

this is what i would do..

unless we want nuero issues to be passed into other breedings..

i often feel at times liek this the morh thing has just gone too far 

i know that not a popular statement and as i own a lemon coloured beardie am i being hypocritical...??? i need to go and self evaluate that one...

but it does make me personally wonder what my moral stance on morphs should be..

which is a good thing as maybe i had been ignoring that for a while now..


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

melanie said:


> Re. MONEY
> noone has ever mentioned money infact the only person who mentions money is yourself time and time again and the so called price crash which is so strange for someone who doesn't own one... i was thinking perhaps it was a genuine concern for breeders in the uk who do own one however i now feel after the comments you made stating uk breeders are more concerned with their pockets that indeed it is a way of you trying to tarnish a reputation and tarnish a breeder here, if by stamping on others it is the only way you can be trecongnised then i am afraid diablo you won't be here for long!
> 
> *I do not need to stamp on anyone to be recognised im afraid Melanie. Seems that some are a little miffed at my discussion regarding the neurological traits. It is true there will be a price crash on the enigma morphs more so now since the Public are aware of the neurological problems.*
> ...



Also not to forget the fact that when the morph was first found it was bred to numerous leopard geckos which then more inbreeding took place. If I was you Melanie I would get the facts right before you start shouting your mouth off. I agree with one of your statements that Kelli @ Hisss does have numerous Enigma morphs and is working with them quite alot but funny enough out of all the enigma's she has produced not many have this problem but in the UK where things aren't kept close to the belt information leaks and fast. I have video evidence of a enigma that suffers of this problem and others have videos of the same problem only time will tell when people are annoyed because of what they have spent and ends up with a leopard gecko with neurological problems. If you do not wish to continue this discussion in a mature manner then please step away from this thread.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> In my opinion, as a geneticist, you should never breed an individual that has a negative phenotypic trait caused by inbreeding like this one. I don't want to sound preachy but these individuals do not occur in nature, at least for very long because they are incapable of surviving. Hence they are purged.
> 
> They seems from what people are saying, to be a large proportion of causes of this condition in the uk, now either all cases can be traced back to a single breeder here or further back in the states. Work would really need to be done to assess the linkage of these traits, but i would strongly advise against attempting to purify.


 
the linkage is paramount 

and holding babies back is actually...... believe it or not exactly the right thing to do...


its 200% what i would do.. i couldnt sell a baby not knowing and id want to do my own studies along with other far more professionally learned people.... like geneticists and zoologists etc...

its what anyone should do at the moment..

and record and document all findings.. whether male or female anmd severity and any unusual activity when exposed to low UV or noise etc..

surely it can be that much or a burden to do this if people really want to make sure evrythings ok


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> All enigmas seem to carry this triat of neurological problems. Mel you said in your previous statement that the problems have lessened with outcrossing to other morphs etc if that is the case and what you have said is true how come people are having problems outcrossing the enigma gene? It does seem to be a problem with the genetic makeup of the enigma gene. Which needs either purifing to see if the problem can be solved or breeding need to cease until a solution is found.
> I can garrentie to you that for certain that a member on these forums is breeding enigma's which neurological problems and is still selling them on even though they are fully aware of this problem but will dismiss it on open forums. Even though the person openly admitted they noticed circling etc with their enigmas.
> 
> Sparkle is correct it is a worry and something which needs looking into.


 
firstly the person you speak of is yet another highly respected breeder and he would not breed a gecko which showed neurolical problems.
circling is not deemed to be neurologial and more stress related and not all enigmas do it.
bell enigmas are known to be light sensitive but so is any bell albino based morph.

supersnows are known to be slow to grow and thrive, blizzards are known for their nasty disposition however these are not see as imperfections but as the personalty of the gecko and there are many people who own and continue to breed these morphs maybe these morphs should not be bred from then.
what is deemed as a negative in one is seen as a desired trait in others, you cannot make wide sweeping comments based on peoples opinion, you did not post info from the geckoforums net of the breeders who had no problems or who disagreed with what was said, like i said if you feel this is the case then maybe you need to show kelli and mark bell you'e research and how you think they created and sold a morph with so many problems!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> In my opinion, as a geneticist, you should never breed an individual that has a negative phenotypic trait caused by inbreeding like this one. I don't want to sound preachy but these individuals do not occur in nature, at least for very long because they are incapable of surviving. Hence they are purged.
> 
> They seems from what people are saying, to be a large proportion of causes of this condition in the uk, now either all cases can be traced back to a single breeder here or further back in the states. Work would really need to be done to assess the linkage of these traits, but i would strongly advise against attempting to purify.


Again GlasgowGecko very true. I honestly do think that the attempts on purifying this morph should cease for the moment until someone can provide valid evidence that the problems can be removed. But due to the problems are neurological which have been caused by too much inbreeding I can not see them being reversable.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

melanie said:


> firstly the person you speak of is yet another highly respected breeder and he would not breed a gecko which showed neurolical problems.
> circling is not deemed to be neurologial and more stress related and not all enigmas do it.
> bell enigmas are known to be light sensitive but so is any bell albino based morph.
> 
> ...



It is such a shame where we are supposed to be a community and supposed to be open to discussion but breeders seem to get on their high horse and clam up so to speak. But alas could it be because of the problems with neurological defects in the enigma trait or is it something else.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

As Enigma owners and breeders i feel it is only fair we can give our account.

Firsty we bought our Bell Enigma & Enigma het Bell for Kelli @ HISS from December 07 Hamm.
We were unaware of the Neuro problems until i read a post on Geckoforums.net shortly after buying them

New Enigma Thread - GeckoForums.net

To date neither of the geckos have shown any symptoms, if they were too i would immediatly stop breeding them and seek to give them a comfortable existance, likeiwse for any offspring produced - I have spoken extensivly with Kelli @ HISS about this Neuro problem.

Diablo, you are also a member of Geckoforum.net, why have you not unleashed this attack on Enigma owners in the US?

I find some of the comments posted on here to be rather harsh and almost like a witch hunt for those of us that are breeding Enigmas, Diablo could you PM the UK Breeder you are referring too when you stated they are hiding the fact they are breeding Enigmas that have Neurological problems.

We took the discision to by these geckos as we were fascinated by the morph, myslef and Pete are not money driven, far from it, it is a hobby we both enjoy and treat our geckos like pets not as money tanks, we are a very small scale breeder as you well know Diablo, we only produce 20 offspring in a season if that, so bracketting *every *UK Breeder of Enigmas as _"breeders who are more concerned with their pockets"_ is paramount to slanderous!

I hope this statement has come across as well constructed and not at all immature or a breeder getting on her high horse, but simply as an Enigma owner and breeders views.

Thank you


----------



## toyah (Aug 24, 2006)

Diablo said:


> But due to the problems are neurological which have been caused by too much inbreeding I can not see them being reversable.


I am curious as to how the neurological problems in enigmas could be caused by too much inbreeding. Isn't enigma a dominant gene? Presumably that means most of the enigmas out there have come from crossing an enigma to a normal from an unrelated line.

Even the combination enigma morphs - albino enigma for example - will generally be created by outcrossing an enigma to an albino, and then crossing an enigma het albino to either an albino or het albino ... if there is inbreeding or backcrossing to a parent, it will be inbreeding on the albino side of the pedigree rather than the enigma side. There would be no gain for a breeder in breeding back to the enigma side.

Pigmentation changes and neurological disorders can both be created by abnormalities in the neural crest. It seems more likely that the method by which the body produces the abnormal "enigma" pigmentation also causes problems with the neurological function of the animal. But there in lies the dilemma for some - it won't be an "on/off" gene that you can predict the inheritance of, it will most likely be a combination of the enigma gene, multiple modifier genes, environmental conditions, or even perhaps dietary variables. So it might well be possible to minimise or even appear to "breed out" the associated problems, but to do so you would have to produce multiple generations which could include animals with these problems.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Also not to forget the fact that when the morph was first found it was bred to numerous leopard geckos which then more inbreeding took place. If I was you Melanie I would get the facts right before you start shouting your mouth off. I agree with one of your statements that Kelli @ Hisss does have numerous Enigma morphs and is working with them quite alot but funny enough out of all the enigma's she has produced not many have this problem but in the UK where things aren't kept close to the belt information leaks and fast. I have video evidence of a enigma that suffers of this problem and others have videos of the same problem only time will tell when people are annoyed because of what they have spent and ends up with a leopard gecko with neurological problems. If you do not wish to continue this discussion in a mature manner then please step away from this thread.


my enigma came from kelli, infact most of the enigmas over here have come from her s the fact you say out of all the hndreds she has bred not many show this trait speaks for itself in being it has been a selective few and most definatly not all, the fact that yet again you imply that breeders here do not have the same morals as usa breeders yet again another insult, you are implying that if a morph showed these traits that any uk breeder over here would not care and breed it, that is a comment which not only insults me but also insults the hard work and determination of many breeders such as myself to produce high quality healthy geckos
no one in the usa are concerned because they have found through research down with the enigma that this is not neurlogical and is deemed to be stress related and with the bell enigmas light sensitivty however the uk is behind and since only a few own them and not many have been bred from that it is only now we are hearing of the intial findings when the first enigmas were created. however myself i have seen no signs and this is my first year breeding the enigma, my hatchling shows no signs but until i am 100% with him like any of my geckos they will not be available for sale but hey i'm a uk breeder and therfore in your'e eyes don't do that.

QUOTE:ONLY TIME WILL TELL WHEN PEOPLE ARE ANNOYED BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY SPENT AND END UP WITH A GECKO WITH NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEMS

no we are annoyed that people such as yourself make out this is to be fact based on personal opinions, money has never come into it, like i said you are the only one that mentioned price crash etc and seeing as you were actively looking to buy a enigma only weeks back, my my all that reserch in a few days has led you to form a opinion on a morph you do not own , you have not bred and only on what you have read.

my people who research spend months and months reading and actively breeding the morph before coming to any conculsion, in kellis opinion there is no problem and if anyone should know then she is the person to state it!

inbreeding lol the intail enigmas were done through linebreeding however since they this morph as been put to new and differnt bloodlines, i have done no inbreeding with my enigma and have actively spoken with uk owners to exchange bloodlines.
my own enigma hatchling was bred from a enigma to tangelo, and although not smiled upon by a few due to mixing tremper and bell i feel the morph is now able to be put to others to see the outcome, as i stated my own does not show any signs and none of my young will be sold until i am 100% happy with them, this is not with just with this morph but will all the morphs i breed with.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Enigmas come from a ton of recessive genes in the first place...

i was almost 100% sure they were outcome of already line bred leos... but i could be wrong of course...

so therefore in their genetics is a bundle of line bred recessive ness which switched became dominant and now is showing neuro issues


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> It is such a shame where we are supposed to be a community and supposed to be open to discussion but breeders seem to get on their high horse and clam up so to speak. But alas could it be because of the problems with neurological defects in the enigma trait or is it something else.


 
remember when you posted your'e lavender blushes and how many pople said they were normals and how it annoyed you because people were making assumptions on a morph they did not create or own and were trying to be little it and mock you stating you had created a fancy name for a normal gecko..........:whistling2:


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

I Have emailed and PM'ed Kelli Hammack to see if she can give her understanding and Knowledge with this Morph, i would think she will be the one person in the world that could give concrete answers - agreed?


----------



## Triangulum (Apr 30, 2006)

My first leopard gecko had neurological problems. I believe it was due to over heating. It had all the signs of what you are describing and what has been said.

Head twitching, legs limp, not moving, not eating, and then he sadly passed away. I fe dhim with a seringe, but it still wasn't right. It was a horrbile thing to witness.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> I Have emailed and PM'ed Kelli Hammack to see if she can give her understanding and Knowledge with this Morph, i would think she will be the one person in the world that could give concrete answers - agreed?


 
that would be really helpful..

thanks


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> that would be really helpful..
> 
> thanks


 
Not a problem, she's very busy so i wouldn't expect an immediate response!
Its just that she has been working with them and we can all speculate and give opinions but nothing is better than facts eh


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Melanie I do not hide the fact that I was seeking a male enigma but then due to the problems which have come to light with talking to many people i decided against it. I'm afraid you are incorrect if I was doing it for the money etc as you state don't you think I would of bought a few enigmas myself ( by the way I have the money to do so ) Is it because you feel threatened with the information provided because you have place your enigma with a few of your leopard geckos. 

You can PM or email Kelli @ Hiss because she has done an awful lot of breeding with the enigma's but she wasn't the one who found it. Your best bet would be to email Mark and Kim Bell to see what their imput to all of this is but I can garrentie a cover up will be placed rather quickly.

Melanie if you can not continue in a adult discussion then I would advise you to refrain from posting thank you.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Not a problem, she's very busy so i wouldn't expect an immediate response!
> Its just that she has been working with them and we can all speculate and give opinions but nothing is better than facts eh


yeah...

i just find it a fascinating if not worriesome and sad subject due to my own unusual neurological condition..

its what made me look at initially the ball pythons spider wobble

i think when you face something perosnally you have a macabre interest in it even if its not a shiney positive thing..

will you be posting anything on the this thread


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> yeah...
> 
> i just find it a fascinating if not worriesome and sad subject due to my own unusual neurological condition..
> 
> ...


Oh Absolutly, i too would like a greater understanding of this problem, and i would not be prepared to _sweep it under the carpet_ as some have said, i have nothing to hide at all and hope that we are fully approachable.

I will also contact Kim & Mark Bell to see if i can gather any feedback/info from them - watch this space


----------



## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Melanie if you can not continue in a adult discussion then I would advise you to refrain from posting thank you.


Melanie is well within her rights to continue posting on this thread. This is the 2nd time you have asked her to step away. 

I will point out that you have no rights asking anyone to refrain from posting.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Thank you for your imput PSgeckos. Glad you can see where im coming from to an extent.

Fair enough I could of worded my OP differently but it was late and I was tired.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

fazer600sy said:


> Melanie is well within her rights to continue posting on this thread. This is the 2nd time you have asked her to step away.
> 
> I will point out that you have no rights asking anyone to refrain from posting.


If she can not conduct an adult conversation then I was purely stating she should step away from the thread that is all. 

Which I have now realised it is not Melanie it is Mark who is in the discussion. Sorry If I offended you Sy.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> If she can not conduct an adult conversation then I was purely stating she should step away from the thread that is all.
> 
> Which I have now realised it is not Melanie it is Mark who is in the discussion. Sorry If I offended you Sy.


you only deem it a adult conversation when you feel things are going your way,if not you throw a tantrum....

so thank you fazer600sy for clearing that up, 
it would be appear like in many cases a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in some hands.

I do not feel threatened by anyone i have my own standards which show in what i produce, people can judge me on that as people judge you on what you do.
:whistling2:


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

melanie said:


> you only deem it a adult conversation when you feel things are going your way,if not you throw a tantrum....
> 
> so thank you fazer600sy for clearing that up,
> it would be appear like in many cases a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in some hands.
> ...


Very true Mark but it is going my way now the UK is aware of neurological problems within the enigma genetics even if you seem to dismiss there is a problem. 

Little knowledge you say we shall see now this can of worms is now open I do not wish to rubbish enigma breeders all I advise is that people take note of whats being said and be careful with enigma breedings. 

People already judge me and alot don't like me because Im blunt and straight to the point but personally that does not bother me.


----------



## AuntyLizard (Feb 7, 2007)

I find the whole subject of genetics fascinating.. There is a lot of inbreeding done in the animal world. I had noticed that some NOT all pedigree dogs have similar problems because of inbreeding. 

Genetics is a complicated subject and would love to do some research into it. It is not just the reptile world that you can see genetic problems hell we even have it in our own world. 

Liz


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I think talking to people who have bred these animals is useful to a point, but certainly think (and not only about enigmas, as i am not that familiar with them) that detailed studies of the condition, should be undertaken, and the actual genetics... not just "breeders genetics". 

I have no real concerns for money, but standards of life for these animals is likely poor.


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

Diablo, what are your thoughts on the non-enigma owners who have posted about their geckos having neuro problems? you seem to be ignoring them? If you are doing any kind of 'investigation' they must be accounted for as an arguement that other factors as well as morph are involved.

Also I see no difference in the way melanie is posting nad the way you are posting?


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

hah 'nad', obviously meant 'and'


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Very true Mark but it is going my way now the UK is aware of neurological problems within the enigma genetics even if you seem to dismiss there is a problem.
> 
> Little knowledge you say we shall see now this can of worms is now open I do not wish to rubbish enigma breeders all I advise is that people take note of whats being said and be careful with enigma breedings.
> 
> People already judge me and alot don't like me because Im blunt and straight to the point but personally that does not bother me.


of course i disagree with there being a problem because mine and many others do not show it, please show me any information which proves it is not be a stress or light sensitivity disorder and is just pure neurological proof.
i wonder what your'e motives are to spread information that isn't proven or a morph you do not own, don't tell me it is for the benefit of the geckos you seem to have other motives.*As you say things are going your'e way that to me* sounds like a man on a mission regardless of the facts, who is willing to shout off with very little evidence fortunatly it would seem however you are not one to be listened to.
is it that the enigma is more popular than diablo balanco after all you have spent loads on them but as you say money is not the reason you feel it necessary to take on this personal crusade.
i do not own any diablo blancos but that is because i buy what i like not what will sell and indeed my enigma was bought me as annoversary present from my wife however i would never add comment or feel it necessary to attack a morph i do not own hence why i hav never spoken about the diablo blancos or the emerines in such a negativy way that you feel it necessary to do with the enigma.
If i had a morph which showed problems then 1.
i would not breed from it and 2 i would research it further and contact many many owners and the people who first created the morph but there again i regard myself as a responsible breeder something apparently by your'e statement the uk lacks.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

missk said:


> Diablo, what are your thoughts on the non-enigma owners who have posted about their geckos having neuro problems? you seem to be ignoring them? If you are doing any kind of 'investigation' they must be accounted for as an arguement that other factors as well as morph are involved.
> 
> Also I see no difference in the way melanie is posting nad the way you are posting?


Because neurological problems arent being discussed with the odd few leopard geckos which are down to different things.




missk said:


> hah 'nad', obviously meant 'and'


Lol



melanie said:


> of course i disagree with there being a problem because mine and many others do not show it, please show me any information which proves it is not be a stress or light sensitivity disorder and is just pure neurological proof.
> i wonder what your'e motives are to spread information that isn't proven or a morph you do not own, don't tell me it is for the benefit of the geckos you seem to have other motives.*As you say things are going your'e way that to me* sounds like a man on a mission regardless of the facts, who is willing to shout off with very little evidence fortunatly it would seem however you are not one to be listened to.
> is it that the enigma is more popular than diablo balanco after all you have spent loads on them but as you say money is not the reason you feel it necessary to take on this personal crusade.
> i do not own any diablo blancos but that is because i buy what i like not what will sell and indeed my enigma was bought me as annoversary present from my wife however i would never add comment or feel it necessary to attack a morph i do not own hence why i hav never spoken about the diablo blancos or the emerines in such a negativy way that you feel it necessary to do with the enigma.
> ...


Also you should get your facts right before saying things which you don't know about. For your information Diablo Blanco's are still popular and do not contain any neurological problems. Also you don't actually know what I own do you.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think talking to people who have bred these animals is useful to a point, but certainly think (and not only about enigmas, as i am not that familiar with them) that detailed studies of the condition, should be undertaken, and the actual genetics... not just "breeders genetics".
> 
> I have no real concerns for money, but standards of life for these animals is likely poor.


 thats very sensible..

as i mentioned a detailed study from ALL sides is important with more input than breeders alone.


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

Um you don't know they are down to different things. You really have to consider them or you will invalidate any arguement. You MUST account for them if you want to make this stick. Is it the odd few? Or is it that people aren't trying to cause a sensation about them so don't plaster it over the internet because they aren't worth a grand each? Again, to make any research credible you have to look from all angles, trust me, I'm a scientist!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

missk said:


> Um you don't know they are down to different things. You really have to consider them or you will invalidate any arguement. You MUST account for them if you want to make this stick. Is it the odd few? Or is it that people aren't trying to cause a sensation about them so don't plaster it over the internet because they aren't worth a grand each? Again, to make any research credible you have to look from all angles, trust me, I'm a scientist!


Trust me I've been a reptile keeper for twenty years to realise whats going on. Its genetic defect which as caused this problem because of too much inbreeding it seems that somewhere along the lines there have been problems with the genetic makeup. Conflicting with other morphs is a prime example. I will be studying this further and will be making notes of whats going on. May take two months to do but then again it may take two years.


----------



## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Trust me I've been a reptile keeper for twenty years to realise whats going on. Its genetic defect which as caused this problem because of too much inbreeding it seems that somewhere along the lines there have been problems with the genetic makeup. Conflicting with other morphs is a prime example. I will be studying this further and will be making notes of whats going on. May take two months to do but then again it may take two years.


Does that make you about 3 years old when you had your first reptile.: victory:


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

fazer600sy said:


> Does that make you about 3 years old when you had your first reptile.: victory:


Yes it does Sy and I was 2 years old when I had my first leopard gecko  with help from my mother and my reptile collection progressed from there. By the age of 8 I was breeding leopard geckos


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

missk said:


> Um you don't know they are down to different things. You really have to consider them or you will invalidate any arguement. You MUST account for them if you want to make this stick. Is it the odd few? Or is it that people aren't trying to cause a sensation about them so don't plaster it over the internet because they aren't worth a grand each? Again, to make any research credible you have to look from all angles, trust me, I'm a scientist!


 
yes i agree many other morphs will show similar taits but as we can see diablo finds this acceptable to ignore or discredit without proper research and he feels there is no need to acount for all.
As you can all see it does not suit him to do this and he finds it more beneficial to attack.
supersnows are slow to thrive the same as bell enigmas
bell albinos and other bell related morphs show a sensitivty to light more so than albino who show this anyway.
Many enigmas do not show any if not none of the traits and the ones that that do actually seem to outgrow this and yet again some of these traits have shown in other morphs, but to imply that he knows a breeder who knowlingly sells enigmas with proven neurological disorders is incorrect but there again some people feel it necessary to try and discredit others when they don't know the facts.


----------



## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

not been able to read this whole thread but i get the idea!

i have two rescue leo (normals) they were neglected.

They lived together all their lives in a good enclosure but were only offered food occasionally and clean water not available.

one seems to be fine apart from a bit of weight loss but the other who is considerably smaller has some kind of neuro problem. She has to be hand fed, and will still take a few swipes (in opposite direction)at whatever offered. her head is 90% of the time cocked to one side. her balance is affected and will sometimes fall over in her tub on flat ground. I have yet to prove it totally but im 90% sure there is a sight problem too, her pupils are always alot smaller than the other. but she is definately able to see something as she senses movement of crix etc.

i put it down to the neglect buyt now i think about it, if its neglect why is one of them ok and in much better physical condition.

it is quite upseting to see as most of you have pointed out, and i wish there was something i could do but im assuming there is no 'fix' for neuro damage. 

im not sure if this is releavant in any way to the genetic problems of enigmas but i thought id share it with you.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Surely if diablo said "some uk breeders are aware of this and its in some breeders stock" which basically he did [back on page one or 2]
"rah rah rah how dare you, we dont cover things up, dont say we all do that" is a bit over the top when he just said "some"..oh sorry i remember now he said "many" but still he didnt say melanie [or mark] did... or anyone else did he?

i dont know all these breeders and stuff and im not into genetics and shizzle but it seems a bit defencive to me.

the term "attacking a morph" sounds really childish... I hope nobody actually considers this sort of thing a genetic war or soemthing cos that would be bloody sad.

to the scientist... one of diablos quotes listed a us [i think] breeder who said what of how many of his enigmas had problems and it seemed more than the odd one...i think freeky geekys leo that has problems prolly has a dozen or so siblins [maybe hundreds i dont know] and if no more have had probs it does sugest its soemthing else doesnt it?
or are averages and odds void with genetics?


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

I've not read the whole thread in detail yet but whoever it was that said we dont know if these problematic leos are suffering - that's a total frickin understatement. My enigma has lost 6 grams in a week - all because her hunting and stalking is soo off-point that she can't even catch a mealie that isn't moving.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

can you not hand feed her?


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> can you not hand feed her?


if i stroke underneath her mouth then she'll SOMETIMES open her mouth - then I'll put a mealie in and she'll munch it down. As for taking it off the tweezers herself, she doesn't ever seem interested, maybe she gets distracted that I'm there


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

lol first of all you cannot imply you have 22 years of experience when you are infact only 22, so you may of owned a gecko since two unless you bred geckos consistansly for 22 years then you cannot quote that.

plus if you had i'm sure everyone would know of you and you would have a glowing reputation with many new morphs along the years.

i have been breeding geckos 2 years, i bred beardies before that and before the internet however i do not claim to know all, i do not place myself higher than anyone else, if i am unsure of things i talk with other breeders and owners, i am asked advice via pm and emails and always find time to answer i give my opinion on the way i do things but i do not state or imply that the way i do things is correct or the only way.
I listen to advice and will help others, yes i have a good reptutation but i have worked hard for this,i treat others how i myself would like to be treated and i spend alot of time making sure my geckos have everything taken care of.
I am happy with the standard i set but i am always looking to improving things i am always open to change and always happy to help, i can accept on occasion i'm wrong and hold my hands up to it, maybe this is why so many who have bought from me are happy if all i a,m known for is breeding healthy geckos then i am 100% happy with that, i am not in competition with anyone and feel no need to slander other breeders and their morphs.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

so its fair to say you havent got any problems with your enigmas but are interested in finding out whats going on with them? 

I think thats fair and i think diablo is after the same thing...i know i would be..


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

i totally sympahtise with the enigma characteristic..

it sounds very similar to the cognitive movement problems i have in the cerebellum of the brain..... very difficult indeed...

are there any scientists anyone knows that can pinpoint the areas of a leos brain .. 

although ive been following the whol enigma reports from a while back i admit im usnure abotu the actuall nuerological make-up of a leos brain..

do the cerebellum parts work in the same was as humans etc..

controlling ataxia
sensitivity to light
movement etc

if people list all the symtomos and they can be pinpointed to a specific area a gentic link may be easier to make..

as a word>>>>



some of these symtoms are not mild..

they are very disturbing and saddening..


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I've not read the whole thread in detail yet but whoever it was that said we dont know if these problematic leos are suffering - that's a total frickin understatement. My enigma has lost 6 grams in a week - all because her hunting and stalking is soo off-point that she can't even catch a mealie that isn't moving.


first of all how long have you had her, is she a red eye bell albino if so then bell albinos need a few additional things to help reduce their light sensitivty, instead of jumping to neurological problems in a morph recently bought maybe a few things need to be done, many geckos not just enigmas have a settling in time where certain things are needed to be done to reduce the stress of moving to a new home and enviroment, the eyesight is down to lightsenstivity the rest is done to any new gecko subjected to change


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Ok ive just read the whole thread and considering i have not a lot of experience breeding leopards geckos ill use dogs as an example
Staffords are now tested for L2-HGA which is a genetic trait in lines going back years.
The breeders in the dog comunity have been responsible and decided to find a test for the signs of the L2 problems. They found that it altered the bloods some how and then began to test for it.
All the stafords that are found to be affected by the L2 are not bred from 
all the staffords that are found to be carriers are only bred to clean stock and that stock tested for L2 
All the dogs that are unaffected either via clean parents or via testing are only bred to clean lines.


I think a few of you have got the wrong end of the stick to be honest, I have seen rainwaters leopard gecko and it is not light sensitivy or stress, no way.
There are also many other enigmas that do suffer with the problem. 
Mel your correct most of the enigmas here in the uk have come from kelli at hisss. No one has said that those are the enigmas with the problems, the same as no one is saying that its only the ones that come from mark and kim bell. That has never been mentioned at all. 
What people are saying is that it does need to be looked in to to either confirm or dismiss the fact that these problems are neurological. 

The only way this can be done unfortunatly would be a examination on the brain of a few effected and non effected leopard geckos. To be honest i can't see any one wanting to put their leopard gecko down just to find out whats wrong with it.

It was never mentioned that you personally would breed from nothing better than 100% healthy stock it was never said that any one in perticular would do such a thing. 
It has however been said that people may have bred from defected leopard geckos. 

Again this is personal opinion and everyone is entitled to that as far as im aware. I can understand enigma keepers wanting to find out for sure thats surely a good thing?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

i mearly say I have twenty years of experince its not my fault that I have kept reptiles since then. 

Also you say you have only been breeding for two years. But yet you seem to know it all.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> so its fair to say you havent got any problems with your enigmas but are interested in finding out whats going on with them?
> 
> I think thats fair and i think diablo is after the same thing...i know i would be..


This is what i have said in a previous post and by contacting Kelli Hammack & Kim & Mark Bell they could give valuable knowledge on this subject instead of scattered opinions and not the hard facts which we can learn from and help not to produce geckos that will have a poor quality of life if indeed it is deemed to be an inherant Neurological problem


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

i took offence to this comment as i am sure many breeders would

I* have noticed that with many enigma breeders here in the UK and the EU seem to hide the fact of these Neurological problems thankfully the states aren't as concerned about their pockets*


i don't know of one breeder who would purposely sell a gecko with problems be aware of it and not inform the buyer, in a later post diablo actually states that a breeder who owns enigmas does this in the uk, i do not know of any enigma breeders in the uk who would and to imply this person did is incorect.
As there is no concrete evidence to prove this is neurologial only and nothing else then it is incorrect to assume that it is, he has already admitted that although other morphs will show sysmptoms he finds it not relevant, when infact as it has been said all facts need to be considered.

he further implies that the creator of this morph was knew of these problems and covered it up that is wrong misinformation which is damaging to all concerned.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

melanie said:


> first of all how long have you had her, is she a red eye bell albino if so then bell albinos need a few additional things to help reduce their light sensitivty, instead of jumping to neurological problems in a morph recently bought maybe a few things need to be done, many geckos not just enigmas have a settling in time where certain things are needed to be done to reduce the stress of moving to a new home and environment, the eyesight is down to lightsenstivity the rest is done to any new gecko subjected to change


No - she's not a red eyed. I've had her 6 months and has been like this since day 1. She circles at night as well as the day, I've witnessed this many nights with the light off and also witnessed her try to hunt the mealies and there's no change.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> i mearly say I have twenty years of experince its not my fault that I have kept reptiles since then.
> 
> Also you say you have only been breeding for two years. But yet you seem to know it all.


you seem not to be able to read, please re read the post i claimed not to know everything and open to opinion, as i own a enigma and mine does not show any symptoms (fact) you are quite welcome to come down and research him then i feel as a owner i am allowed to put my point across, but as you do not own the morph i find it hard to understand how you can quote info as facts without contacting oners and breeders.
research takes years not weeks maybe you need to voice your'e concerns to kelli and mark bell i'm sure they will put you straight on your'e wild claims!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

melanie said:


> you seem not to be able to read, please re read the post i claimed not to know everything and open to opinion, as i own a enigma and mine does not show any symptoms (fact) you are quite welcome to come down and research him then i feel as a owner i am allowed to put my point across, but as you do not own the morph i find it hard to understand how you can quote info as facts without contacting oners and breeders.
> research takes years not weeks maybe you need to voice your'e concerns to kelli and mark bell i'm sure they will put you straight on your'e wild claims!


They may have been completely unaware of any neurological problems in the enigma line but it seems that its showen itself down the lines via outcrossing and breeding enigma x enigma. 

I will discuss this with kelli and mark bell. If you want to help on this research could you take notes of your hatchlings and if there are any changes within your ones please. Also the problem seems to be genetic some show but others are carriers.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> No - she's not a red eyed. I've had her 6 months and has been like this since day 1. She circles at night as well as the day, I've witnessed this many nights with the light off and also witnessed her try to hunt the mealies and there's no change.


if you have had her 6 months and yet this week she has lost 6gms are you sure thats due to her being a enigma and nothing else, how old was she when you had her?, how heavy was she? have you been weighing her weekly what are her weights stats like for 6 months, it seems strange you note these problems now?

if she has been like this since day 1 struggling like you say with food and such a dramic weight loss she must be terribly underweight.can you weigh her?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

melanie said:


> if you have had her 6 months and yet this week she has lost 6gms are you sure thats due to her being a enigma and nothing else, how old was she when you had her?, how heavy was she? have you been weighing her weekly what are her weights stats like for 6 months, it seems strange you note these problems now?
> 
> if she has been like this since day 1 struggling like you say with food and such a dramic weight loss she must be terribly underweight.can you weigh her?


Melanie these problems were made public a while back when Rainwater was worried about her and wanted more information.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/77720-young-enigma-keepers-leos.html

That is the link.

So how is it just coming to light.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

melanie said:


> if you have had her 6 months and yet this week she has lost 6gms are you sure thats due to her being a enigma and nothing else, how old was she when you had her?, how heavy was she? have you been weighing her weekly what are her weights stats like for 6 months, it seems strange you note these problems now?
> 
> if she has been like this since day 1 struggling like you say with food and such a dramic weight loss she must be terribly underweight.can you weigh her?


I have been taking her to the vets each month only for the vet to confirm that she shows signs of confusion and a possible inactivity of a part of her brain or poss damage - or neuro problems. I was told she was about 5 months old if I remember correctly. I weigh her weekly, every sunday, and she has been pondering around 45-50g...only when I hand feed her. And no, I haven't just noted these problems now, just the first time I made a thread nobody listened and it was purely dismissed. These problems have been going on since day 1. As I said before, her aim was so off and still is and she never gets the food within the first 3/4 times of trying. She has become so frustrated that she just walks off and I now have to hand feed her. She is 45g now. The only reason she isn't terribly underweight is because I refuse to let her get worse and spend time with her every night.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> Ok ive just read the whole thread and considering i have not a lot of experience breeding leopards geckos ill use dogs as an example
> Staffords are now tested for L2-HGA which is a genetic trait in lines going back years.
> The breeders in the dog comunity have been responsible and decided to find a test for the signs of the L2 problems. They found that it altered the bloods some how and then began to test for it.
> All the stafords that are found to be affected by the L2 are not bred from
> ...


 
at last the voice of reason!
personal opinions are fine however they are not fact and when personal opinions are deemed as fact against a morph it is very damaging.
If indeed there is a genuine problem which is proven to be neurological then yes people should be made aware, as my emigma is a pet this won't effect me too much but it will mean that i will not breed it however as my gecko does not show symtoms and this is not proven i will rely on judgement of other enigma breeders and closley observe my own enigma offspring, none will be released for sale unless i am 100% happy.
yes information if proven is good for all enigma and enigma potential owners but until proven then to make widely claims not yer proven is not only damaging to the morph to to many gecko breeders both here and in the uk.

Re. other morph problems my first supergiant died 6 months after being bought from ron tremper, no reason just here one minut gone the next, however now it has been stated that giants have a shorter life span, this is not proven and i know many owners who giants are still going strong, infact my new supergiant is fine and piling on the weight.
It would be wrong for me to assume that just because mine died that indeed this was fact and others would be subjected to the same fate and it would be damaging to the morph and ron tremper also who continues to sell these morphs so please caution needs to be advised when making unfouded un proven claims!


----------



## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I have been taking her to the vets each month only for the vet to confirm that she shows signs of confusion and a possible inactivity of a part of her brain or poss damage - or neuro problems. I was told she was about 5 months old if I remember correctly. I weigh her weekly, every sunday, and she has been pondering around 45-50g...only when I hand feed her. And no, I haven't just noted these problems now, just the first time I made a thread nobody listened and it was purely dismissed. These problems have been going on since day 1. As I said before, her aim was so off and still is and she never gets the food within the first 3/4 times of trying. She has become so frustrated that she just walks off and I now have to hand feed her. She is 45g now. The only reason she isn't terribly underweight is because I refuse to let her get worse and spend time with her every night.


this is exacly as my leo but mine is not a morph, just normal. can these problems be caused by neglect.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Fine by me Mark ill prove it out


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I have been taking her to the vets each month only for the vet to confirm that she shows signs of confusion and a possible inactivity of a part of her brain or poss damage - or neuro problems. I was told she was about 5 months old if I remember correctly. I weigh her weekly, every sunday, and she has been pondering around 45-50g...only when I hand feed her. And no, I haven't just noted these problems now, just the first time I made a thread nobody listened and it was purely dismissed. These problems have been going on since day 1. As I said before, her aim was so off and still is and she never gets the food within the first 3/4 times of trying. She has become so frustrated that she just walks off and I now have to hand feed her. She is 45g now. The only reason she isn't terribly underweight is because I refuse to let her get worse and spend time with her every night.


first for a 5mth old gecko that is a good weight i understand you have been hand feeding her however are you sure this is just her being a enigma, i had a mack snow slit the egg and then turn round and the egg deflated, i managed to save her however she displayed similar traits and i knew these to definatly be neurological through lack of oxygen.
i gave this gecko to ditta for free and explained that this was not genetic but down to egg hatching problems, i'm sure if ditta comes on here she will verfy this.
so as you can see a non enigma gecko showing what is regarded as enigma symtoms


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

DeanThorpe said:


> to the scientist... one of diablos quotes listed a us [i think] breeder who said what of how many of his enigmas had problems and it seemed more than the odd one...i think freeky geekys leo that has problems prolly has a dozen or so siblins [maybe hundreds i dont know] and if no more have had probs it does sugest its soemthing else doesnt it?
> or are averages and odds void with genetics?


Dean, don't be silly. I'm not saying they are all genetic at all. The few other morphs of leo listed on here as having neurological problems are not the only ones out there. I am suggesting that there may be many leos out there with these problems which must be accounted for in order to make a thorough analysis. Without looking at all the relatives of a gecko it is difficult to make a call on the cause of the problem unless you do tests or disect the animal. Of course with there being a small number of enigmas and with them having a good genetic morph ID tag, it is easier to trace a problem. You can't suggest to me that all the other leos out there suffering neurological problems have them due to neglect? That's a very poor conclusion. Therefore you have to add geckos with the neurological problem which aren't enigma to any study as a control. Surely you understand that? What do you know of the averages and odds to make any decision about genetic or not?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Voice of reason as always its cus you love me really 
The post was put up by rainwater because of her concerns of her leopard gecko. 
I dont remember seeing anyone say that its a fact they have neurologial problems. It is however very clear that the enigma leopard gecko has something wrong which no other morph has in its genetics. What that is at this moment in time no one know but it is something that should be found out before people are 100% sure their enigmas are not affected or carriers of the defect. The same way it was in staffords. 
Maybe it would be an idea if all enigma breders have a declaration on their terms of sales to say that if any enigma they sell have signs of neurological problems after being sold they can be returned to the breeders asap.

It has not been proven in the giant lines that there is a shorter life span but it does happen quite often it that it due to their genetics or not then thats a differet story. 
I myself own a super giant and giants and they are in perfect health but i do expect they will not live to 14 maybe they will and if they do ill be more than happy to care for them for all that time.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

rakpeterson said:


> this is exacly as my leo but mine is not a morph, just normal. can these problems be caused by neglect.


I doubt very much that its down to neglect at all i know rainwater personally and she takes in blind rescue leopard geckos as it is this lady knows her stuff  

not that your saying she has but just so we are clear lol


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

missk said:


> Dean, don't be silly. I'm not saying they are all genetic at all. The few other morphs of leo listed on here as having neurological problems are not the only ones out there. I am suggesting that there may be many leos out there with these problems which must be accounted for in order to make a thorough analysis. Without looking at all the relatives of a gecko it is difficult to make a call on the cause of the problem unless you do tests or disect the animal. Of course with there being a small number of enigmas and with them having a good genetic morph ID tag, it is easier to trace a problem. You can't suggest to me that all the other leos out there suffering neurological problems have them due to neglect? That's a very poor conclusion. Therefore you have to add geckos with the neurological problem which aren't enigma to any study as a control. Surely you understand that? *What do you know of the averages and odds to make any decision about genetic or not?*


Firstly im not making any decisions...infact i have no first hand experoence or opinion on this situation..Ws however pointing out that a guy had numerous enigmas showing symtoms, seemingly this points to genetics...one normal leo having it when it has 50 siblins is a "fluke" but when xx amount of flukes happen and there is a common factor it is when further research is done ,you know that as a scientist..which is what i was hoping to get across by pointing the quote out.

You would also know, as would most people that soemthing that can be genetic like neurological damage can obviously also be caused by othe rthings... logic would dictate those that have soemthing in common may indeed have that thing in common being the cause, and those that are random may also be.. but more likely anotehr cause...ok hands up...who beats thier leos with rollin pins? come on...step up...


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

melanie said:


> first for a 5mth old gecko that is a good weight i understand you have been hand feeding her however are you sure this is just her being a enigma, i had a mack snow slit the egg and then turn round and the egg deflated, i managed to save her however she displayed similar traits and i knew these to definatly be neurological through lack of oxygen.
> i gave this gecko to ditta for free and explained that this was not genetic but down to egg hatching problems, i'm sure if ditta comes on here she will verfy this.
> so as you can see a non enigma gecko showing what is regarded as enigma symtoms


Yes I can understand the probs with your normal gecko but I have had this discussion with the breeder and I was assured that these problems were not down to any hatching problems or injury. As for her weight, I'm glad I'm getting it stable now but she dropped to 31g when I didn't intervene, and she refused to drink. Again, she has regular visits to the vets and he suggested that her signs accounted for a neurological and I've had two different vets agree with this diagnosis.


----------



## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

no, i mean mine has been neglected and i rescued it, not that anyone here has neglected their animals!: victory:



Faith said:


> I doubt very much that its down to neglect at all i know rainwater personally and she takes in blind rescue leopard geckos as it is this lady knows her stuff
> 
> not that your saying she has but just so we are clear lol


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I know Jenna personally aswell, no animal in her care would ever be neglected, I would bet my whole collection on that.

I know a couple of US/EU breeders who cull enigs that show the listed signs, and it is DEFINATELY in more than F1 animals, outcrossing doesn't solve the problem either, as has been proven by Snow Enigs/Albino Enigs havin the same problems.

I don't see why when someone is researching about problems that DO exist, the keepers of the animals/morphs in question only reply negatively to the comments.

Are you worried about people reading it and not buying the geckos, or do you just reply in a negative way when somebody tries to get help and other peoples experiences/knowledge on something?

I will ask a couple of breeders I know of them in the EU to pass on some details Diablo, they can likely help you out with some info.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> I know Jenna personally aswell, no animal in her care would ever be neglected, I would bet my whole collection on that.
> 
> I know a couple of US/EU breeders who cull enigs that show the listed signs, and it is DEFINATELY in more than F1 animals, outcrossing doesn't solve the problem either, as has been proven by Snow Enigs/Albino Enigs havin the same problems.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that Young_Gun keep me updated


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> Voice of reason as always its cus you love me really
> The post was put up by rainwater because of her concerns of her leopard gecko.
> I dont remember seeing anyone say that its a fact they have neurologial problems. It is however very clear that the enigma leopard gecko has something wrong which no other morph has in its genetics. What that is at this moment in time no one know but it is something that should be found out before people are 100% sure their enigmas are not affected or carriers of the defect. The same way it was in staffords.
> Maybe it would be an idea if all enigma breders have a declaration on their terms of sales to say that if any enigma they sell have signs of neurological problems after being sold they can be returned to the breeders asap.


We had already thought of that and we would have no problems at all doing this.


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

DeanThorpe said:


> Firstly im not making any decisions...infact i have no first hand experoence or opinion on this situation..Ws however pointing out that a guy had numerous enigmas showing symtoms, seemingly this points to genetics...one normal leo having it when it has 50 siblins is a "fluke" but when xx amount of flukes happen and there is a common factor it is when further research is done ,you know that as a scientist..which is what i was hoping to get across by pointing the quote out.
> 
> You would also know, as would most people that soemthing that can be genetic like neurological damage can obviously also be caused by othe rthings... logic would dictate those that have soemthing in common may indeed have that thing in common being the cause, and those that are random may also be.. but more likely anotehr cause...ok hands up...who beats thier leos with rollin pins? come on...step up...


<Sigh> please show me where i suggested this was all genetics. Maybe i'm just not wording it right. I'll try again using your words:

What you outline in the first paragraph is one part of a study - the hypothesis produced from the observations is that the trait is genetic yes?

so in order to conclude that this hypothesis is correct, you have to create a study which rules out other possibilities, or people will pick holes in your work. So therefore you have to show that other cases are not genetic. This is the point you are making in your second paragraph, you just aren't understanding the way the two need to be linked together to make one study which is less easy to argue with.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Can't beat a good old debate


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> Voice of reason as always its cus you love me really
> The post was put up by rainwater because of her concerns of her leopard gecko.
> I dont remember seeing anyone say that its a fact they have neurologial problems. *It is however very clear that the enigma leopard gecko has something wrong which no other morph has in its genetics*. What that is at this moment in time no one know but it is something that should be found out before people are 100% sure their enigmas are not affected or carriers of the defect. The same way it was in staffords.
> Maybe it would be an idea if all enigma breders have a declaration on their terms of sales to say that if any enigma they sell have signs of neurological problems after being sold they can be returned to the breeders asap.
> ...


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> I don't see why when someone is researching about problems that DO exist, the keepers of the animals/morphs in question only reply negatively to the comments.


Have i answered negativlely? Please show me?



Young_Gun said:


> Are you worried about people reading it and not buying the geckos, or do you just reply in a negative way when somebody tries to get help and other peoples experiences/knowledge on something?.


No, as i've stated we are not money driven, 



Young_Gun said:


> I will ask a couple of breeders I know of them in the EU to pass on some details Diablo, they can likely help you out with some info.


I have contacted Kelli, and will wait til i can get Mark & Kim Bells contact details and see if i can get any advice from them.


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

you should read some peer reviewed science articles, some proper wrangling to be seen there! mostly due to someone not understanding what the other person is trying to say...


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> We had already thought of that and we would have no problems at all doing this.


Which is a great way to see if it can be bred out. The thing we would need to find out would be how to test for the problems in a scientific way, and see if there is a way to figure out how badly it effects different strains of the gene or when it is crossed with a resessive or co dom morph 

One question would be if all albinos suffer from being light sensitive some more than others and people are saying that the enigma is showing signs of the same why is it that its not only albino enigmas that are affected. 
Super snow show no signs of being light sensitive nor do hypos, normals or mack snows as they dont have the albino trait within their genitics


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

But now the world is aware of the problems arising within the enigmas lets see where this goes.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Ok......

Firstly neurological problems in enigmas may exist and im sure with some animals do. 

This is the case in all morphs however, any animal or human can experience such problems. 

Young gun - I dont think it is a case of defending to avoid the young not being able to be sold. But there is a general feeling coming from this thread that ALL enigmas have problems (not that any one individual has neccesarily said this) and that can be damaging or just annoying to those who might have perfectly healthy specimens. 

If we are going to go down this route what about sellers who dont follow simple hygiene procedures that can lead to problems in the young.

I know for a fact that a lot of people dont even worm their geckos? 

The young show no signs but are not 100% healthy geckos and this is due to something the owner could easily rectify. 

Diablo is well within his right to carry out research into this area if he feels he wants to do so, but perhaps it is best to pm the relevant people for info needed and continue in this way. 

I think Mark/Melanie are trying to state that there enigma does not show neurological problems, only really Mark and Melanie can comment on this and i dont see why anyone would have any reason to doubt them. 

If the signs are really so noticeable then no breeder will get away with selling unhealthy young and i certainly do not beliebe this is what Mark/Melanie is attempting to do in any way. 

I for one own two enigmas, a tangerine enigma male and a bell enigma male. 

Neither show any neurological problems.

The bell shows some signs that could be classed as eyesight issues, quite possibly light sensitivity. 

Any animal can have neurological problems, the enigma is not exempt, if higher than usual percentages exist perhaps people have just bred too many animals carrying such problems, it does not mean that 100% healthy enigmas do no exist because they DO. 

I will be breeding my enigmas and will have enigma hatchlings available, these will not be sold unless 100% healthy and i am confident that a usual number of the young (more than likely all with the odd exception perhaps) will be.

Thanks,

Ben


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> We had already thought of that and we would have no problems at all doing this.


 
however ps look further into this intailly yes a good idea however this could be open to abuse, you could get the people that change their mind and say it to get some cash back or you could get if after they have bred it does it apply to the offsring also.
no i don't feel this is the way forward, hard concrete evidence nothing less, if you can't be proved then it shouldn't be stated as fact, as stated before i'm sure ron tremper wouldn't be too happy if it was stated as fact that all giants have a shorter life span? will terms and conditions apply to that morph also??? no because it is not proven, a few not all therfore what is good for one morph is equally good for another: victory:


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

missk said:


> <Sigh> *please show me where i suggested this was all genetics.* Maybe i'm just not wording it right. I'll try again using your words:
> 
> What you outline in the first paragraph is one part of a study - the hypothesis produced from the observations is that the trait is genetic yes?
> 
> so in order to conclude that this hypothesis is correct, you have to create a study which rules out other possibilities, or people will pick holes in your work. *So therefore you have to show that other cases are not genetic* [yes...like only one n 50 siblins having it thats what i was trying to say] This is the point you are making in your second paragraph, you just aren't understanding the way the two need to be linked together to make one study which is less easy to argue with.


i dont think we are on the same level, which is fine ,i never said you said it was all genetics..quite the opposite actually seen as how if anything in this thread im on the side of it INDEED BEING GENETICS in the case of the enigmas...im pretty certain everything i said sugested that so obviously my way of wording is too basic for you to follow and is causing you to sigh uncontrollably...something i dont like to be the cause of.
[makes me very sad] so ill cease any direct conversation with yourself as i never really wanted to talk to you in th first place, have no ida who you are, dont really like you and have no wish to repeat what i have said in any simpler terms than i already have [and lets be honest..i dont exactly use long words... im a simple speaker/typer for the common man/woman]

all the best.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

melanie said:


> however ps look further into this intailly yes a good idea however this could be open to abuse, you could get the people that change their mind and say it to get some cash back or you could get if after they have bred it does it apply to the offsring also.


Yes this is true - unfortunatley i'd like to think there are people out there that are truthful and as honest as us




melanie said:


> no i don't feel this is the way forward, hard concrete evidence nothing less, if you can't be proved then it shouldn't be stated as fact, as stated before i'm sure ron tremper wouldn't be too happy if it was stated as fact that all giants have a shorter life span? will terms and conditions apply to that morph also??? no because it is not proven, a few not all therfore what is good for one morph is equally good for another: victory:


Well said.

Would a post mortem help at all? Anyone with a unwell Enigma should consider having it put to sleep to prevent any suffering and a post mortem carried out, would this not be an option or a help??


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> Faith said:
> 
> 
> > Voice of reason as always its cus you love me really
> ...


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

DeanThorpe said:


> i dont think we are on the same level, which is fine ,i never said you said it was all genetics..quite the opposite actually seen as how if anything in this thread im on the side of it INDEED BEING GENETICS in the case of the enigmas...im pretty certain everything i said sugested that so obviously my way of wording is too basic for you to follow and is causing you to sigh uncontrollably...something i dont like to be the cause of.
> [makes me very sad] so ill cease any direct conversation with yourself as i never really wanted to talk to you in th first place, have no ida who you are, dont really like you and have no wish to repeat what i have said in any simpler terms than i already have [and lets be honest..i dont exactly use long words... im a simple speaker/typer for the common man/woman]
> 
> all the best.


wow. you really did get confused then or you wouldn't have made that ridiculous outburst as you would realise nothing i said was offensive. With the current level of knowledge on the extent of the problem in enigmas and call on genetics or not is just a pesonal opinion as yet not based on fact. People with your attitude ruin forums.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

melanie said:


> first of all the information you have read is based on personel opinion there has been no scientific study there are no facts it is based on
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> however ps look further into this intailly yes a good idea however this could be open to abuse, you could get the people that change their mind and say it to get some cash back or you could get if after they have bred it does it apply to the offsring also.
> no i don't feel this is the way forward, hard concrete evidence nothing less, if you can't be proved then it shouldn't be stated as fact, as stated before i'm sure ron tremper wouldn't be too happy if it was stated as fact that all giants have a shorter life span? will terms and conditions apply to that morph also??? no because it is not proven, a few not all therfore what is good for one morph is equally good for another: victory:


Mel as i said before NO one said it is FACT! i agree at this moment in time it is a group of opinions which is what the forums are meant for. 

If by having this discussion/debate we have brought light on to the fact that people need to keep a close eye on the engima and realise that maybe not all the things were considered before some of them were bred then we as reptile keepers have done our jobs. 
Not only that we have then given people the choice to make up their own minds on what they want to do with their enigmas that are showing signs of defects.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

sparkle said:


> melanie said:
> 
> 
> > first of all the information you have read is based on personel opinion there has been no scientific study there are no facts it is based on
> ...


Sparkle for the first time ever i think i 100% agree with you :? 
Dont be to shocked lol


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> melanie said:
> 
> 
> > first of all the information you have read is based on personel opinion there has been no scientific study there are no facts it is based on
> ...


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

this is a good point PS Geckos, perhaps something with the enigmas makes them more susceptable though?


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Faith said:


> Sparkle for the first time ever i think i 100% agree with you :?
> Dont be to shocked lol


LOL im not faith

i said the same to diablo today...

not sure if i wil survive the night thinking the same thing...

it may be enough to kil me...


but back to the point

i know i dont go on about it on the forum but tis something i feel very strongly about in reptiles... neuro conditions..

mines causes mild autism and stess dysfunction... as the neuro pathways in the brain are fused negatively..

unfortunately if there is a genetic problem or any brain damage that cant ever change

for instance in a dog whos been badly treated you MAY be able to retrain him not to bite

in a dog who has brain damage or some type of genetic issue your chances are almost zero

outcrossing wont change that EVER

and what we cant see is what worries me..

on the surface i for instance appear fine..

but i suffer from something much like aspergers.. i have fits and weakness of the limbs and some days i can think so clearly but others not at all..

this causes me more neuro stress thus affecting the neuro condition and so it goes on..

so relating that back to reptiles as i try so often to do even though obviously there are differences....

these geckos who cant feed for instance will of course become stressed... the stress chemicals wil cause a natural reaction of fight or flight.. this cotinues down the neur pathways looking for the correct physical and mental repsonse

the weakenss of limbs causing them to be unable to either fight OR flights thus casuing severe continued stress..

Unlike humans we cannot talk to them.. resssure them... try to help them in the same ways..

the neuro issues in ALL morph making facinates me.. but for the sadness and heartbreak of it all rather than just plain science..

iknow noone knows for sure whats going on right now.. but if ever ive seen something that LOOKS so visually neurologically connected its these enigma issues

i feel at times weve al just gone a bit too far...


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PS geckos i can understand that point and its a good one. 
Missk Could it be that the neurological problems in enigmas could show as stress. For example in humans stress can pose as a neurologial condition but can a neurological condition pose as stress?


Mel i doubt ive made the morph un sellable as i said its the same in the dog world anyone that breeds dogs will know there are certian tests every breed is recomended to have before breeding. 
But these tests are done and only healthy stock is bred from, bare in mind thats not healty by sight thats healthy by tests that are specific to the breed of dog.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> sparkle said:
> 
> 
> > A light bulb just came on, i know i'm quoting your post Sparkle and do apologise as i skimmed read it, but...
> ...


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Fight or Flight reflex is actually controlled by the pituitary gland, it is part of the endocrine system, this inturn tell us to produce adrenalin form the adrenal glands, situated ontop of the kidneys.
I know the pituitary gland is in the brain but as it is part of the endocrine system i don't think it would be classed as the CNS (central nervous system)

Maybe its a hormonal problem, especially if it is seen more in females?

Yeh, i know i've opened that up for those men out there to have a pop at us ladies and our hormones!!! lol


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Faith said:


> PS geckos i can understand that point and its a good one.
> Missk Could it be that the neurological problems in enigmas could show as stress. For example in humans stress can pose as a neurologial condition but can a neurological condition pose as stress?
> 
> 
> ...


 
faith 100% nurological problems can display as stress...

from experience and research i know this statement to be true

if more than one enigma in different conditions is stressed .. then surely it cant just be the conditions are all awrong..

their heightened sensitivity HAS to be linked... and not by country or husbandry

as these would all differ...


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Fight or Flight reflex is actually controlled by the pituitary gland, it is part of the endocrine system, this inturn tell us to produce adrenalin form the adrenal glands, situated ontop of the kidneys.
> I know the pituitary gland is in the brain but as it is part of the endocrine system i don't think it would be classed as the CNS (central nervous system)
> 
> Maybe its a hormonal problem, especially if it is seen more in females?
> ...


 
thats what i said way back in this thread at the very start
hormones affect neurological issues a lot

and the hypothamalus is an issue here too..

adrenalin affects the hypothmalus too..

it is too easy to pigeon hole parts of the brain.. we know WAY WAY less about it than any other organ

and how it al fits together is stil taking shape..

monthly there are new discoveries about how each part of the body adffects another part...

ive had to undergo ALL of these tests and investigations personally..

as i have intermittant autistic behaviours and seizures.. all caught on EEG

so im an anomally as far as the docs are concerned

so if there are anomalies in humans then there has to be in animals..


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

sparkle said:


> faith 100% nurological problems can display as stress...
> 
> from experience and research i know this statement to be true
> 
> ...


Thanks for that sparkle, it wasnt that i didnt note your other post it was that i was trying to get a point across.

So if as you say a neuro problem can pose as stress is it possible that when the enigmas were first bred the breeders and keepers may have seen some of the symptoms and regarded them as stress. Maybe not at all intentionally but because of them not being aware of the fact the enigma could be effected by neuro problems. Thus continuing to breed from "carrier" stock and producing more carriers. 

Reverting back to dog genetics if a carrier is bred to a carrier you get a percentage of affected and a percentge of carriers, this would then be the same in leopard geckos?
As of yet there is no way of testing to see if it is a neurological problem but if it is, it is very possible that carriers or affected stock could have been bred to each other resulting in more affected and more carriers and so on.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Trust my luck, my internet goes down and I miss all the fun and games !

My 2pence worth.

I dont own any engimas, nor wish to do so.

I have owned other leos who have shown nurological problems.

However, I also know many humans who have some kind of nurological problems, and this in itself does not lead me to think there is a problem with the human race (other than those we know of !)

Now, if the incidence of nurological problems in the human race runs at say 3%, but, for example, the Japanese show 10%, then that points to some kind of problem with the Japanese.

I belive this to be the case with leos, yes there are cases of nurological in leos, but it seems that the reports are more numorous with enigma strains.

This, to me, points to some possible problem that needs to be fully researched.

As to breeders who want to keep it quite, Whilst I would not tarnish everyone, I DO know one who has done so. I wont disclose any info on this, as its between the seller and the buyer, but I know for a fact that Diablo was not just making a statement to whip up bad feelings.

I have heard info about a US breeder, but as its only hearsay, it would not be right to quote it here.

Good luck to everyone involved.

Tony


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

just a thought

for the breeder that said...

do you want me to keep my leopard gecko enigma babies til they are 8 months old... ( to see if they indeed show signs of this problem)

and i replied yes

what if you dont..

what if u sell the babies..

and someone not so scrupulus finds their enigma has issues..

and they dont care enough NOT to breed...

the more that are sold without waiting till they are old enough to judge correctly the more withsisues will be out there..

possibly being bred from and then their babies sold..

and so the wheel turns...


not a nice thought


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Trust my luck, my internet goes down and I miss all the fun and games !
> 
> My 2pence worth.
> 
> ...


 
Tony how is it you manage to say in one sentance what most of us take 4 pages to do? lol


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> thats what i said way back in this thread at the very start
> hormones affect neurological issues a lot
> 
> and the hypothamalus is an issue here too..
> ...


 
Sorry, missed it :blush:

Like you when Pete was going through his illness and in limoland you read into everything, so i do have a fascination with it all too


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> I belive this to be the case with leos, yes there are cases of nurological in leos, but it seems that the reports are more numorous with enigma strains.


And in response to someone earlier, no one is going out of their way and attacking the enigma morph. As Tony says quite rightly, reports have been more numerous with enigma strains - and that's why it got me, and others, thinking as to why this is happening and not that we're trying to slap a label on Enigma's to damage business

Rant Over


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

sparkle said:


> just a thought
> 
> for the breeder that said...
> 
> ...


Personally i think that happened already to be quite honest. 
Although the morph was researched when it was released there may hve not been enough research in to the hets the morph carried. Which in turn may have produced affected animals with out the breeders even being aware of these problems.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

hmm

its all so bloomin sad 

the bottom line is we strive to make prettier weirder more unsuual all the time in the reptile community

our desire for the newest and most unsual has to surely be our downfall here...


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

sparkle said:


> hmm
> 
> its all so bloomin sad
> 
> ...


I think our only down fall would be if we failed to tried to make it better.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

What shall we do then?
How can this be poilced? Impose a non breeding policy on Enigma's?
I would be more than happy to do this until the problem is researched but how will it stop someone who will continue to breed regardless?


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> I think our only down fall would be if we failed to tried to make it better.


the longer we leave it, the worse it'll get. Even if it wasn't neuro problems and it was something else, at least it would have come to light through debate (or possibly argument in a few cases)


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> What shall we do then?
> How can this be poilced? Impose a non breeding policy on Enigma's?
> I would be more than happy to do this until the problem is researched but how will it stop someone who will continue to breed regardless?


I think the first stop is awareness? Not sure...good point you made


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

This is the only problem PSgeckos some will be more than happy to stop breeding enigmas but others won't  Im glad you on board with this  

I understand people had their plans about the enigma morphs etc but its such a hard thing to decide what to do. 

 The three main concerns I have are as follows: 1) This defective/lethal gene is polluting the leopard gecko genepool and will be present for years to come.....hidden as hets. 2) People need to know the facts so that they can make an informed discussion before making a purchase. 3) The leopard gecko industry as a whole will be harmed by the ramifcations of the marketing of this morph.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> What shall we do then?
> How can this be poilced? Impose a non breeding policy on Enigma's?
> I would be more than happy to do this until the problem is researched but how will it stop someone who will continue to breed regardless?


To be honest i dont know i can only go by my own experience with effects of breeding. 
What basically happened in the dog world was they found a way to test animals for defects once they found the testing they then started testing their own animals. 
Published the results in a public forum for all to see, these people wernt flamed for their results even if their dogs were affected in fact they were quite sympathetic to the fact others had lost out with affected dogs. 

The only way it could be policed is by having breeders on board, if breeders them selfs refuse to breed from infected stock then the public cant buy them. 
Personally as a comunity if people agreed this was the right thing to do and for example we found out another breeder was producing off spring from un tested stock then we would have something to say about it. 
I doubt very much that a breeder doing so would hold their hands up to it at all, but saying that the only way we will get any kind of result is by working together to achieve a unaffected strain?


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Diablo said:


> This is the only problem PSgeckos some will be more than happy to stop breeding enigmas but others won't  Im glad you on board with this
> 
> I understand people had their plans about the enigma morphs etc but its such a hard thing to decide what to do.
> 
> The three main concerns I have are as follows: 1) This defective/lethal gene is polluting the leopard gecko genepool and will be present for years to come.....hidden as hets. 2) People need to know the facts so that they can make an informed discussion before making a purchase. 3) The leopard gecko industry as a whole will be harmed by the ramifcations of the marketing of this morph.


Don't jump on me but we need to find out what it is before saying it is infact a dirty gene - i know it probably is, but lets just keep an open mind until its proven


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Don't jump on me but we need to find out what it is before saying it is infact a dirty gene - i know it probably is, but lets just keep an open mind until its proven


i dont think it was meant as fact hun, but if it is then the above statment would make sence?


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> The only way it could be policed is by having breeders on board, if breeders them selfs refuse to breed from infected stock then the public cant buy them.
> Personally as a comunity if people agreed this was the right thing to do and for example we found out another breeder was producing off spring from un tested stock then we would have something to say about it.
> I doubt very much that a breeder doing so would hold their hands up to it at all, but saying that the only way we will get any kind of result is by working together to achieve a unaffected strain?


Well we'd be the first to sign up


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Well we'd be the first to sign up


I think with a common consensus we all would


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Well we'd be the first to sign up


Its great to hear a refreshing post PS and good to know that there are breeders out there that will recognise a problem if there is one there. 

The next step would be to find a way to diagnose the problem with out having to do a PM. If there is one there.

As that would surely have the best effect on the morph. Then go on to only breed from unaffected leos. 

So who knows the ins and outs of leopard gecko biology/neurology ?


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Ive just been reading back through the thread, and it does seem that people do have a profound misunderstanding of inbreeding and its implications.

I don't want to harp on about it, and im sitting on the fence, but is very intensive selective breeding in the best interest of the animals? People on this site take a somewhat dim view on those keepers who use sand as a substrate for example due to its suggested risks? Is there a difference between this risk and the risk of inbreeding depression? 

Just a thought...


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

I think thats quite true Glasgowgecko and im sure all creators of morphs are aware that its not really in the best interest... but negative effects are lessened/eliminated by quick outbreeding once the morph is established...which is what i think this is all about in the case of th enigmas mayeb it was too little too late, if that is indeed the case that is.


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Im not sure that this "quick out-breeding" would indeed purge deleterious alleles. This would depend on trait linkages and various other factors.

Interestingly the market seems to have a number of 6 toed bearded dragons at the moment, and various other signs of inbreeding.

This certainly is not an attack at gecko breeders, who undoubtedly would not continue if they new this were the case (as has been said above countless times).

I really do think more consideration needs to go into the whole process . I dont know how control measures would be actioned, but it does seem that people can creat these problems without a full understanding of the implications.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

DeanThorpe said:


> I think thats quite true Glasgowgecko and im sure all creators of morphs are aware that its not really in the best interest... but negative effects are lessened/eliminated by quick outbreeding once the morph is established...which is what i think this is all about in the case of th enigmas mayeb it was too little too late, if that is indeed the case that is.


Dean i personally think it was just that it was to late by the time it was realised it could be a neurological problem. The morph was released quite quicky to my knowledge i could well be wrong but if this is the case then a lot of back tracking needs to be done.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Im not sure that this "quick out-breeding" would indeed purge deleterious alleles. This would depend on trait linkages and various other factors.
> 
> Interestingly the market seems to have a number of 6 toed bearded dragons at the moment, and various other signs of inbreeding.
> 
> ...


I dont think there are any implications of discussing the what ifs of a morph at all or making people aware of the fact breeders will be prepared to stop breeding if it is proved to be a genitic trait.


----------



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Im not sure you understood what i meant faith. I certainly think that discussion is a valid tool, and put to good use here.

I meant that people can create these morphs, with no understanding of the consequences of inbreeding, and inbreeding depression.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> This is the only problem PSgeckos some will be more than happy to stop breeding enigmas but others won't  Im glad you on board with this
> 
> I understand people had their plans about the enigma morphs etc but its such a hard thing to decide what to do.
> 
> ...


 these are not FACTS they are a collection of sweeping statements formed into one conculsion without concrete based evidence which in turn has been formed as fact by one non owning enigma owner.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> these are not FACTS they are a collection of sweeping statements formed into one conculsion without concrete based evidence which in turn has been formed as fact by one non owning enigma owner.


Ok i get your point about some things being a desiered trait in some species but please tell me you dont think circling not eating draging of the head and not being able to feed assisted is would ever be a desired trait :? 

No one has said they are facts ever but you keep trying to point it as if we are THESE ARE OPINIONS people need to know that they are not proven as facts yet. In turn they need to know that as a fact some enigmas have these problems, as a fact that some enigmas should not be bred from for their own sake as we ca not be sure if it will have a diminshing effect on the leopard gecko 

Once again you have made the statment we do not own an enigma you know this because ??????
You dont we may not own an enigma or we may have had one for over a year. You wouldnt know unless you have been here.

Even IF we dont own the morph are you saying as breeders of leopard geckos we have no valid opinion on the way this morph could be affected by neurological conitions.

As with humans you dont need to show every single symptom to have a correct diagnoses at all. For some people one or two symptoms would be enough for futher testing.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Faith said:


> Tony how is it you manage to say in one sentance what most of us take 4 pages to do? lol


 
cos i am clever, i just make out to be stupid most of the time !


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

melanie said:


> these are not FACTS they are a collection of sweeping statements formed into one conculsion without concrete based evidence which in turn has been formed as fact by one non owning enigma owner.


maybe not facts but very valid possibilities and common traits...and also approved possibilities


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> cos i am clever, i just make out to be stupid most of the time !


Lmao, ive just noticed in most of the debate threads you can sum it up in one post lol


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

quote from a american breeder regarding enigma


We had the pleasure of hatching 10 enigmas last season and they were all over the map. Some were excellent feeders, some weren't. Some showed a bit of circling and light sensitivity (extreme light sensitivity in my opinion)...and others did not. I'm no expert, but I personally do not think what I saw was "neurological"...or if it was, it was very slight. Most of the ones showing this behavior either outgrew it or it became minimized with age. I have worked with other leopard geckos (non enigmas) that had true neurological problems...and what I've seen with the few "funky" enigmas I hatched this season did not match. For me, it was hardly noticeable (perhaps I was just so excited about hatching them??) until I spoke with other breeders who had seen similar behavior. To me it looked more like an extreme light sensitivity.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> quote from a american breeder regarding enigma
> 
> 
> We had the pleasure of hatching 10 enigmas last season and they were all over the map. Some were excellent feeders, some weren't. Some showed a bit of circling and light sensitivity (extreme light sensitivity in my opinion)...and others did not. I'm no expert, but I personally do not think what I saw was "neurological"...or if it was, it was very slight. Most of the ones showing this behavior either outgrew it or it became minimized with age. I have worked with other leopard geckos (non enigmas) that had true neurological problems...and what I've seen with the few "funky" enigmas I hatched this season did not match. For me, it was hardly noticeable (perhaps I was just so excited about hatching them??) until I spoke with other breeders who had seen similar behavior. To me it looked more like an extreme light sensitivity.


Mel if it is light sensitivity then it would only show in the albino strains. 
Im sorry but i cant believe that a normal leopard gecko has what people are calling "extream" light sensitivity. 
What about the snows do they show light sensitivity?
not that anyone has reported to my knowledge. But there have been a few enigma snows that show the circling etc.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

You reckon London Zoo could help us with this peeps?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

melanie said:


> quote from a american breeder regarding enigma
> 
> 
> We had the pleasure of hatching 10 enigmas last season and they were all over the map. Some were excellent feeders, some weren't. Some showed a bit of circling and light sensitivity (extreme light sensitivity in my opinion)...and others did not. I'm no expert, but I personally do not think what I saw was "neurological"...or if it was, it was very slight. Most of the ones showing this behavior either outgrew it or it became minimized with age. I have worked with other leopard geckos (non enigmas) that had true neurological problems...and what I've seen with the few "funky" enigmas I hatched this season did not match. For me, it was hardly noticeable (perhaps I was just so excited about hatching them??) until I spoke with other breeders who had seen similar behavior. To me it looked more like an extreme light sensitivity.


Melanie, Dont you see what is happening here or are you oblivious to whats being said? 

There are more reports of neurological problems within enigma genetics which is causing worry. I don't understand why you are so against this unless you have a few plans yourself and don't want people worried but people should be made aware of what is going on in the genetic makeup of the enigmas. Some seem fine others don't there's more enigma's with problems arising over time. You say you want to produce A grade reptiles but if your putting in a potentionally dangerous genetic defect into more blood then your playing with fire and making the problem worse. An awful lot of people have mixed enigma's to alot of other morphs which have now got the enigma gene in them. It seems such a shame that such a possible exciting morph has these problems. I for one would of enjoyed working with them but after the reports I have heard I shall hold back from doing so. Because I don't want to add more problems to the leopard gecko world.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> You reckon London Zoo could help us with this peeps?


#

If only Stevie Erwin was still alive 

London Zoo - i guess you can try, but i would've thought a more specailised place that deal with reptiles


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

The best place would be the RVC hun. They will point you in the direction of a hertologist


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> #
> 
> If only Stevie Erwin was still alive
> 
> London Zoo - i guess you can try, but i would've thought a more specailised place that deal with reptiles


If only he was PSGeckos  R.I.P Steve.

London zoo would be good to have on side for research into this.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

There may not be cold hard proof of a genetic nurological problem with engimas, but there is also no cold hard proof that there is not.

One chain of thought seems to be that behaivour shown by these animals is indeed a result of issues, the other chain of thought seems to be that where there has been an increased number of issues, its not nurological but something else.

Seems to be 'some' common ground in that there does appear to be an increased incidence of issues, and it does need to be looked at.

Now, its fully upto each breeder as to how the deal with it, some may want to carry on regardless and hope it wont come back to bite them on the ar*s, some will carry on breeding but with hold the animals from the public until such time as there are fully cleared of any possible issues, and others still will stop breeding and wait for research.

Each to thier own, if i were in that situation, I would hold back the babies, as I hve done on a number of occasions when faced with other issues.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> #
> 
> If only Stevie Erwin was still alive
> 
> London Zoo - i guess you can try, but i would've thought a more specailised place that deal with reptiles


Only thinking as I know there'sa gecko enthusiast there and they're a zoological society so they must have links to reptile papers and scientists. I'll see what happens though something might come out of it.

And yes...I miss Stevie...I'm sure the crocs do too!


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> Mel if it is light sensitivity then it would only show in the albino strains.


Bell is an albino strain isn't it?



Faith said:


> Im sorry but i cant believe that a normal leopard gecko has what people are calling "extream" light sensitivity.


Faith, can you tell me what the symptoms are for extreme light sensitivity? I'm not beeing sarcastic, i'm truely curious


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> Only thinking as I know there'sa gecko enthusiast there and they're a zoological society so they must have links to reptile papers and scientists. I'll see what happens though something might come out of it.


 Go for it, try and contact them see if you can drum up any interest

On another note, could live geckos be MRI'ed? or CAT scanned, would this harm them? Just a thought as this is what happens to us if we've got problems with the grey matter? Leisons etc, just a random thought!


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

quote from a one of the creators of the morph:

Most act completly normal, some exhibit a slight "slowness", a few are really weird acting (walking in circles). In no way do ALL of them walk in circles (sorry Albey, but I've produced over a hundred Enigmas and I know this is not the case








Of course just about everyone is doing outcrossing, so it is just going to take time to see if this is able to be bred out of the line or not. Oh, also many of them do seem to outgrow their starnge behavior.
__________________
quotes from other usa breeders
Sorry, but I disagree that it's a neurological issue until proven as such.

This thread is getting a bit damaging to the morph with nothing more than educated guessing. Plenty of enigmas are out there THRIVING like any other morph, so why are we judging them as a whole on the actions of a percentage of them?

I in no way am pointing the finger at any post here, but this thread is taking a path that is starting to look bad for anyone who intends to ETHICALLY hatch out beautiful healthy enigmas .
__________________Earlier this year, I hatched out a carrot-head Tremper male (not an Enigma!) that was very small, and walked in circles and did "Stevie Wonder" head waving. He had a very hard time getting started, and I considered humanely euthanizing him. When he finally began eating on his own and growing, he eventually outgrew the neurological 'symptoms'. He turned out to be a very lovely gecko, but was sold with full disclosure to a pet-only home.

I would like to re-iterate for many of you... I spent quite a bit of time with Kelli and the Enigma's earlier this year as well as in October 2006. I did not see very many of these morphs exhibit the symptoms we are discussing, and the only ones that did were not any of Kelli's offspring... they were the originals. I have 1.1 RE's and 1.1 regular Enigma's (one of which is an original), and none of them walk in circles or wave their heads around.

Like I said earlier in this thread, literally EVERY 'new' morph ever produced has had some issue when they were originally introduced... some that proved to be genetic. We have openly discussed those issues amongst ourselves and on public forums, and it has been extremely positive... only done good for all concerned. I have a lot of respect and faith in most of us who are working with the Enigma, and agree with Paul Sage that I am not really too concerned about the potential and future of the morph.


conclusion of thread
*Experiences

*_Albey Scholl_ - Enigma (no type mentioned, but normal I guess) walked in circles. This female's enigma children (4) and grandchildren (6) all show circle walking, but it's less evident.

_Chris McAra_ - Normal enigma showing no issues.

_Dan Lubinsky_ - Enigma (no type mentioned) walks in circles, shows uncoordination and tremors.

_Dan Poe_ - RE enigma has poor eyesight and shows over sensitivity to light.

_Debbie Prince_ - Has three enigmas (Tremper enigma, MS enigma and normal enigma). None of the have issues.

_Jenna Tynan_ - Normal enigma, showing no symptoms.

_Kelli Hammack_ - Hatched over a hundred enigmas, a little percentage of them showed issues.

_Liselott Aronsson_ - RE enigma has walked in circles in the past.

_Marcia McGuiness_ - 2 RE enigmas and 2 normal enigmas, none of them have issues.

_Melanie_ - RE enigma shows light sensitivity.

_Melody and Keith_ - Hatched RE enigmas, non-enigmas and MSB enigma from an enigma cross. Noticed slow growth in RE enigmas compared to their non-enigma siblings. MSB enigma was very weak and didn't survive. One of the RE enigmas shows circle walking that seems related to light sensitivity.

_Paul Allen_ - Hatched 10 enigmas (no type mentioned), some showed circling and light sensitivity.

_Paul Sage_ - Had one enigma (no type mentioned) with issues that didn't devolope until she was 6 months old. To his knowledge, any offspring he has produced show no issues.

_Pete and Sarah_ - RE enigma and normal enigma showing no issues.

_Sandra Sanz_ - Normal enigma does not show any symptoms. RE enigma walks in circles, has poor eyesight, does not show over sensitivity to light.

_Shaun Pruitt_ - Normal enigma, no symptoms. Has hatched 2 RE enigmas that show circle walking that seems related to light sensitivity.


*Possible causes of the problem*

_Nervous system_

Pros - Neurological disorders cause animals from other species to walk in circles.

Cons - The sypmtoms aren't similar to other cases of neurological disorders in leopard geckos.

_Light sensitivity_

Pros - Some enigmas only show or increase the amount of circle walking when exposed to light. Symptoms like bad eyesight could be related to light sensitivity too.

Cons - Some enigmas show issues even if they aren't all that sensitive to light.

_Accumulation of genetic traits_

Pros - Enigmas combined with other genetic traits seem to be weaker than normal enigmas in general.

Cons - This doesn't happen in any other combination of traits in leopard geckos.


Actually, I think and any newer moph combinations have the same issues. Why do we see far more Super Snow Trempers than Super Snow Bells? Most of the Super Snow Bells have not survived. Tremper Albinos have been around for so much longer than Bells and more people work with them so naturally the genetics will be stronger and more survive. I'm sure there are many breeders who put together new combos that don't thrive. You just don't hear about it. 

So that's the one point that I disagree with. It's not just isolated to Enigmas.__________________
Agree we all know that albino leo's do have issues with there eye sight.And the RE enigma is a albino with albino strain eyes with red pupils.So i would expect a RE enigma to act the same as a bell albino in the eye department

so from a thread on a usa board about the enigma there was no real concern, most did not show symptoms and agreed that as the enigma has become more established and crossed with others these symptoms described by a selective few have disappeared.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Go for it, try and contact them see if you can drum up any interest
> 
> On another note, could live geckos be MRI'ed? or CAT scanned, would this harm them? Just a thought as this is what happens to us if we've got problems with the grey matter? Leisons etc, just a random thought!


I was thinking this before and Faith mentioned it too...if there was a non-radioactive way of doing this then why not?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Mel congrats you found some of the information I posted up. This still proves something is GOING ON.

I will be contacting a few other breeders regarding this problem some which actually know something is wrong with the morph and don't want to cover it up. Mel please continue with what you are doing because we are only trying to give advice but if you do not want to take it then fair enough.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Bell is an albino strain isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Faith, can you tell me what the symptoms are for extreme light sensitivity? I'm not beeing sarcastic, i'm truely curious


Well bell is an albino strain yes but we can not be sure 100% how the enigma came about, as i aware even the orignal breeders came across the morph as a mistake. 

Light sensitivity in albinos is nothing like the "extream light sensitivity" people are saying the enigma suffers from. 

For example we have albino strains we bred from last year which resulted in jungle albino hatchlings, we also had some tangerine jungle hatchlings. 

The albino jungles showed quite a lot of light sensitivity they would not feed in the light until they were nearly 4 months old. After this they had no problems feeding with the lights on. 
They also would close their eyes if we turned the lights on. 
Personally ive never seen a leo circle because of lights or drag its head.
From Rainwaters experience with her enigma it suffers like this even in the dark. 

As light senitivity is caused by lck of pigment in the eyes i cant see why a normal enigma (by that i mean a non albino) would have problems with it


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> The albino jungles showed quite a lot of light sensitivity they would not feed in the light until they were nearly 4 months old. After this they had no problems feeding with the lights on.
> They also would close their eyes if we turned the lights on.
> Personally ive never seen a leo circle because of lights or drag its head.
> From Rainwaters experience with her enigma it suffers like this even in the dark.


exactly why I rubbish all this light sensitivity stuff...I've had toooo many light sensitive rainwater albinos of all ages and never has one circled or been off target...


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> Ok i get your point about some things being a desiered trait in some species but please tell me you dont think *circling not eating draging of the head and not being able to feed assisted is would ever be a desired trait :? if this was the case there would be no enigmas??*
> 
> No one has said they are facts ever but you keep trying to point it as if we are THESE ARE OPINIONS people need to know that they are not proven as facts yet. In turn they need to know that as a fact some enigmas have these problems, as a fact that some enigmas should not be bred from for their own sake as we ca not be sure if it will have a diminshing effect on the leopard gecko no but some are literally taking these opinions as facts which is wrong.
> 
> ...


yes i agree however a number of symptoms could account for a number of diseases and through through investigation and tests a diagnosis would be applied however no doctor would say you have a disease without a number of test first to rule out.
for instance i suffer from migraines this means i have a stiff neck, cannot look at light,a thumping head, sickness and my eye sight is effected, these are also symptoms of menegitus! hence point!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Mel you have not been to my property you have not seen what I have in my collection nor do you know what i'm doing. I'm afraid you can not comment on that. You keep pointing out I was looking for a male enigma which I have said yes I have been looking for one, but changed my mind. We shall see what the future holds with this then shall we.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Go for it, try and contact them see if you can drum up any interest
> 
> On another note, could live geckos be MRI'ed? or CAT scanned, would this harm them? Just a thought as this is what happens to us if we've got problems with the grey matter? Leisons etc, just a random thought!


ONE problem

i have neuron damage and they pick up nothing on the surface of my brain

i have had LOADS of cat scans and MRIs etc but as the issues are internal and not surface it wont ever show

IF the damage is internal ( liek mine) there is NO piece of machinery that wil ever pick it up...
the ONLY way neuron issues within the bain can be found is usually after death when an autopsy can be carefully carried out


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

melanie said:


> yes i agree however a number of symptoms could account for a number of diseases and through through investigation and tests a diagnosis would be applied however no doctor would say you have a disease without a number of test first to rule out.
> for instance i suffer from migraines this means i have a stiff neck, cannot look at light,a thumping head, sickness and my eye sight is effected, these are also symptoms of menegitus! hence point!


Sorry, have to pick you up here, the symptoms of a migraine may appear the same as VERY early onset of menengitus, but trust me, they soon change and menengitus becomes much more visable. I know this, I nearly lost a nice and nephew within 24 hours to menengitus.

Walking around in circles and not being able to feed and muscle spasms are a far cry from a squinting leo due to light, although the first signs may be the same.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> yes i agree however a number of symptoms could account for a number of diseases and through through investigation and tests a diagnosis would be applied however no doctor would say you have a disease without a number of test first to rule out.
> for instance i suffer from migraines this means i have a stiff neck, cannot look at light,a thumping head, sickness and my eye sight is effected, these are also symptoms of menegitus! hence point!


If some people are taking these opinions as facts then to be quite blunt they are dumb. I'm not sure how many times it has to be said by who ever is posting this thread is based on collective opinon.


Regarding the case of there not being any enigmas if you would have read the other post you would know where im coming from, for arguments sake lets say this
" The orignal enigma that was produced did not carry a defective trait. 
BUT the crossing in the enigma line made the genetics of the enigma react and thus showing as a neurological problem. 
As with hets there is a percentage you have to hit to achieve this result, all in it would have been unlucky if this happened and it wasnt noticed. 
Which would mean there would be carriers of the defect already in the lines. The carriers being bred to each other or an affected leo would mean only more carriers or affecteds not clears. 

What happened to the clears well they may have been by chance bred to clears or carriers which would mean a percentage of the off spring would be carriers and nother percentage would be clear."

So if that was the case

Carrier x Carrier = Affected
Affected x Carrier = Affected
Clear x Affected = 50% carrier 50% affected
Clear x Carrier =50% carrier 50% clear
Clear x Clear -100% clear

If it is possible to find out if there are carriers and affecteds that pass on the genes then it is 100% possible to clean the genetics of this morph."

As for symptoms you have basically repeated what i have said as i already said that one or two symptoms would need to be tested further to come to a diagnoses.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

melanie said:


> yes i agree however a number of symptoms could account for a number of diseases and through through investigation and tests a diagnosis would be applied however no doctor would say you have a disease without a number of test first to rule out.
> for instance i suffer from migraines this means i have a stiff neck, cannot look at light,a thumping head, sickness and my eye sight is effected, these are also symptoms of menegitus! hence point!


 
the symtoms could indeed not be neurological 


BUT what is THEN causing it is the main issue..

although neurology seems highly likely due it symtoms.. it may not be

however there is still the genuine concern something is VERY WRONG

and we need to find out why..

irrespective of the cause ..


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

sparkle said:


> the symtoms could indeed not be neurological
> 
> 
> BUT what is THEN causing it is the main issue..
> ...


Agreed  again dont faint lol


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I just see it as mainly a three option thing.

1.Breed Enigma's and take the chances on them producing unhealthy animals that you have to then decide what to do with, and risk tarnishing your reputation.

2.Instigate/take part in a study from strictly controlled Enigma breedings and have the results documented, then from that and hopefully some more studies carried out by US/EU breeders make an informed decision on whether or not to breed.

3.Don't breed Enigmas.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Mel congrats you found some of the information I posted up. This still proves something is GOING ON.
> 
> I will be contacting a few other breeders regarding this problem some which actually know something is wrong with the morph and don't want to cover it up. Mel please continue with what you are doing because we are only trying to give advice but if you do not want to take it then fair enough.


 

quote again *so from a thread on a usa board about the enigma there was no real concern, most did not show symptoms and agreed that as the enigma has become more established and crossed with others these symptoms described by a selective few have disappeared*.


I am not covering anything up there is no solid evidence to back this up, from all your's years of research on this morph breedingand gentically seeing if this is produce in the offspring......hold on you haven't done years of research, weeks if that and all you have come up with is acusations based on some opinons none proven to be solid or evidence based , the conclusion from the american board those quotes were taken from came to the conclusion that there was no real concern, and we are talking about professional breeders who produce 100's and 100's of enigmas, all the top breeders in the usa are breeding enigmas i am 100% sure if this was the case there would be hundreds and hundreds of reports on threads everywhere and not on just one post on one american gecko forum where the majority of top breeders post.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

And you have enigmas do you YG ? :whistling2:


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> quote again *so from a thread on a usa board about the enigma there was no real concern, most did not show symptoms and agreed that as the enigma has become more established and crossed with others these symptoms described by a selective few have disappeared*.
> 
> 
> I am not covering anything up there is no solid evidence to back this up, from all your's years of research on this morph breedingand gentically seeing if this is produce in the offspring......hold on you haven't done years of research, weeks if that and all you have come up with is acusations based on some opinons none proven to be solid or evidence based , the conclusion from the american board those quotes were taken from came to the conclusion that there was no real concern, and we are talking about professional breeders who produce 100's and 100's of enigmas, all the top breeders in the usa are breeding enigmas i am 100% sure if this was the case there would be hundreds and hundreds of reports on threads everywhere and not on just one post on one american gecko forum where the majority of top breeders post.


Mel can i ask why your being so definsive? 
Diablo never said he has done years of research, he has how ever implied that more research needs to be done. 
If you dont want to be a part of that then its your choice no one is trying to force you to agree that there could be a problem amoung enigmas


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

i also had menigicocal encephalitis.. which unfortunately for most people who suffer this the morbitiy rate is massive...

it is basically both menegitis and encephalitis at the same time...

but back the the issue surrounding the enigmas...

maybe something good can come of this,,,, i appreciate for a lot of people its a difficult issue which wil cause possible problems...

but if people can all get on side and get involved with specialists and zoos maybe.... it will benefit the whole of the reptile community...


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Faith said:


> And you have enigmas do you YG ? :whistling2:


No, but I have been licked by one once, which means:

Me > You.

:Na_Na_Na_Na::whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

melanie said:


> quote again *so from a thread on a usa board about the enigma there was no real concern, most did not show symptoms and agreed that as the enigma has become more established and crossed with others these symptoms described by a selective few have disappeared*.
> 
> 
> I am not covering anything up there is no solid evidence to back this up, from all your's years of research on this morph breedingand gentically seeing if this is produce in the offspring......hold on you haven't done years of research, weeks if that and all you have come up with is acusations based on some opinons none proven to be solid or evidence based , the conclusion from the american board those quotes were taken from came to the conclusion that there was no real concern, and we are talking about professional breeders who produce 100's and 100's of enigmas, all the top breeders in the usa are breeding enigmas i am 100% sure if this was the case there would be hundreds and hundreds of reports on threads everywhere and not on just one post on one american gecko forum where the majority of top breeders post.


 
hmmm im not sure there would be hundreds of reports..

spider ball pythins comes to mind..

noone really seems to give a damn with spiders head wobble its just the way they are people say...

IF the snakes were BUILT physically like lizards would we indeed see more problems in the spider royals.. but they arent they are snakes...

without the same vertebrae and tongue or limbs to show weakness

so its not necessarily true that because there is a problem every breeder would be more than happy to admit it..

surely we all know that at least...

ive no idea who breeds enigmas so i cant comment on individual breeders at all....

but i wil stand up and say theres plenty of breeders in ALL animal types.. dogs, cats, reptiles that will copver up things..

lets hope this isnt another one of those


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

this is a circular argument now. Basically there needs to be a proper study with as many breeders as possible involved with different lines of enigmas (as far as that is possible). Nothing will be solved unless all breeders disclose problems with affected hatchlings and sell them with a clause that they can't be used to breed from (policing issues...), and the breeders cease to breed from parents producing affected offspring. If it is a genetic problem it will be impossible to clean up (some people are in it for the money and will disregard the suffering they cause, not saying that is anyone here to be absolutely clear). Potential buyers must be aware of health problems and vote with their money - don't buy a gecko displaying the symptoms, if no-one buys them people will stop breeding them. Reputation of a breeder will become very important - this is a GOOD thing.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> No, but I have been licked by one once, which means:
> 
> Me > You.
> 
> :Na_Na_Na_Na::whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
Be scared they will shoot if you cross that line :lol2:


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

missk said:


> this is a circular argument now. Basically there needs to be a proper study with as many breeders as possible involved with different lines of enigmas (as far as that is possible). Nothing will be solved unless all breeders disclose problems with affected hatchlings and sell them with a clause that they can't be used to breed from (policing issues...), and the breeders cease to breed from parents producing affected offspring. If it is a genetic problem it will be impossible to clean up (some people are in it for the money and will disregard the suffering they cause, not saying that is anyone here to be absolutely clear). Potential buyers must be aware of health problems and vote with their money - don't buy a gecko displaying the symptoms, if no-one buys them people will stop breeding them. Reputation of a breeder will become very important.


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> Mel can i ask why your being so definsive?
> Diablo never said he has done years of research, he has how ever implied that more research needs to be done.
> If you dont want to be a part of that then its your choice no one is trying to force you to agree that there could be a problem amoung enigmas


 
I am being so defensive because on this thread enigma breeders in this country were accused of covering up a problem, of which there is no evidenceof there being such a problem.
As a responsible breeder if i did breed an enigma that i thought had problems of any sort i would not sell it as i always do with any morph no matter what.
I would gladly take part in any research on this forum or with other enigma breeders to clear this up however i will not take part a witch hunt who's main purpose is to damage a morph.


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Breeders of Enigma's are slightly flexible with the numbers of 'bad' ones they get, I can't speak for breeders in the UK, but I know there are certainly more in the EU and most likely more in the US than are 'spoken' about.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

melanie said:


> I am being so defensive because on this thread enigma breeders in this country were accused of covering up a problem, of which there is no evidenceof there being such a problem.
> As a responsible breeder if i did breed an enigma that i thought had problems of any sort i would not sell it as i always do with any morph no matter what.
> I would gladly take part in any research on this forum or with other enigma breeders to clear this up however i will not take part a witch hunt who's main purpose is to damage a morph.


Agreed, 

others need to be careful what they say before more has been discovered regarding this matter. 

Ben


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

missk said:


> this is a circular argument now. Basically there needs to be a proper study with as many breeders as possible involved with different lines of enigmas (as far as that is possible). Nothing will be solved unless all breeders disclose problems with affected hatchlings and sell them with a clause that they can't be used to breed from (policing issues...), and the breeders cease to breed from parents producing affected offspring. If it is a genetic problem it will be impossible to clean up (some people are in it for the money and will disregard the suffering they cause, not saying that is anyone here to be absolutely clear). Potential buyers must be aware of health problems and vote with their money - don't buy a gecko displaying the symptoms, if no-one buys them people will stop breeding them. Reputation of a breeder will become very important.


so when a poster on this thread implied they WOULD not be willing to hold back their enigma babies for a while to check them is that stil ok..



its not circular... im getting fed up on this forum with people saying because we DONT KNOW something we need to stop debating it

thats how people link ideas and brain storm to help come up with new ideas surely 

and that actually helps NOT hinders scientists... maybe the WAY were doing it is emotive and arguementative but go right deep into the world of science and you wil find arguements way deeper than this one

what ifs are what drives science and the WHY of creativity is what matters here...

what ifs and science fiction become science fact so often.. we stop debating and asking and wondering we cease to be human....

the people with imagination and creativity who write futuristic nonsensical ideas... are needed by future scientists..

if you look back in history the imagination of the creative writers have actually spurred scientists on to DISCOVER truths... not fiction



call it what u will..

I am not witch hunting.. i dont even own leos so why would i that would be pointless..

i am genuinely interested and worried 

the very thought that im posting to damage a morph is really quite absurd

debate
ideas
questions
speculation
wondering


it doesnt matter... whats important is we all keep talking.. no matter how uncomfortable and complex it is...

i know this is a personal view and many wil disagree but how do u think science got to where it is now without debate and speculation


even in a court of law .. INNOCENT til proven guilty...

there needs to be a heck of a lot of debate and speculation BEFORE an answer is found..

thats human nature


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> I am being so defensive because on this thread enigma breeders in this country were accused of covering up a problem, of which there is no evidenceof there being such a problem.
> As a responsible breeder if i did breed an enigma that i thought had problems of any sort i would not sell it as i always do with any morph no matter what.
> I would gladly take part in any research on this forum or with other enigma breeders to clear this up however i will not take part a witch hunt who's main purpose is to damage a morph.


No one is on a witch hunt at all 
Personally i believe that any breeder is responsible for their stock even when they leave our homes. 
No one has ever said that you personally would breed from an enigma that showed any signs of illness.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

sparkle said:


> its not circular... im getting fed up on this forum with people saying because we DONT KNOW something we need to stop debating it
> 
> thats how people link ideas and brain storm to help come up with new ideas surely and that actually helps NOT hinders scientists...


I 100% agree with you Sparkle...I'm sick of posts saying its wrong and ruling everything out just because people aren't in agreement. This post has been a brilliant success though in my eyes...debate is just what was needed in this instance


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I 100% agree with you Sparkle...I'm sick of posts saying its wrong and ruling everything out just because people aren't in agreement. This post has been a brilliant success though in my eyes...debate is just what was needed in this instance


 
thank goodness were on the same page i swear if one more person tells me im not allowed to debate a point til its PROVEN i will burst ( much to the joy of plenty of memebrs here i would imagine)

but that aside..

when did common sense go out the window..

to find answers we NEED DEBATE 

and questions and arguements.. its the way humans work out ideas and spur science onwards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

i'm not saying it is circular period, i'm saying until in-depth work is done nothing will be resolved... jees.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

OK Fine Mel you breed your enigmas and if you produce defects and leopard geckos with neurological problems then be it on your head.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

missk said:


> i'm not saying it is circular period, i'm saying until in-depth work is done nothing will be resolved... jees.


 
resolution is not what this thread is... noone is short sighted enough to think a thread on rfuk will solve this problem...

gathering info and debating issues is what its about..

so lets continue


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

missk said:


> i'm not saying it is circular period, i'm saying until in-depth work is done nothing will be resolved... jees.


So to stop it going round in circles what steps would you say are taken next?

Is there anyone in peticular that should be contacted to try to help with nerurology of leopard geckos?


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Faith said:


> So to stop it going round in circles what steps would you say are taken next?
> 
> Is there anyone in peticular that should be contacted to try to help with nerurology of leopard geckos?


 
thats the right place to start i think.. as complex and dificult and specialised as it may be.... it has to be where this needs to go...


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

sparkle said:


> thank goodness were on the same page i swear if one more person tells me im not allowed to debate a point til its PROVEN i will burst ( much to the joy of plenty of memebrs here i would imagine)


exactly how can you even prove anything if you can't debate it and weigh up the pros and cons...jeeez!


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

Faith said:


> So to stop it going round in circles what steps would you say are taken next?
> 
> Is there anyone in peticular that should be contacted to try to help with nerurology of leopard geckos?


this is the type of thinking needed. you could actually take real steps to resolve the issue in a thread, why not? posting on here we have enigma breeders who seem passionate about the morph and are contacting other breeders. It can be used as an information collecting network. Also awareness is being created to a potential problem, people wanting to buy an enigma know what to look for. 

There will be a scientific neurology journal, eg. the Journal of Comparative Neurology. Authors of papers are often happy to share there findings or give their insight to a problem. I think ZSL channel most of their research into consevation issues so not sure they would be much help.


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

again, i have no problem with debate. I was making an observation and suggesting how things may pan out as a result of the discussion (consumer awareness, breeder choice etc)


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

missk said:


> again, i have no problem with debate. I was making an observation and suggesting how things may pan out as a result of the discussion (consumer awareness, breeder choice etc)


Me and Rainwater had decided back on page 18 what to do, she was going to try and contact someone at London Zoo to see if anyne was willing to do research on this issue


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

missk said:


> There will be a scientific neurology journal, eg. the Journal of Comparative Neurology. Authors of papers are often happy to share there findings or give their insight to a problem. I think ZSL channel most of their research into consevation issues so not sure they would be much help.


ZSL have some fab networks with herpetologists all over the world...their library is well extensive I was so surprised. As they're part of EAZA etc, it's really easy to obtain info from loads of different sources. 

As for neurology...maybe look for evidence of similar problems in other reptiles?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> ZSL have some fab networks with herpetologists all over the world...their library is well extensive I was so surprised. As they're part of EAZA etc, it's really easy to obtain info from loads of different sources.
> 
> As for neurology...maybe look for evidence of similar problems in other reptiles?


Well we already know there are problems in the royal morphs as mentioned before with spiders but i know naff all about royal genetics or how they would react when crossing.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> Well we already know there are problems in the royal morphs as mentioned before with spiders but i know naff all about royal genetics or how they would react when crossing.


yeah a guy from a reptile shop in camden bought some ball pythons from hamm and said he had similar problems to mine. really sad story too


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> yeah a guy from a reptile shop in camden bought some ball pythons from hamm and said he had similar problems to mine. really sad story too


So the mission would be to find someone with extensive knowledge in to neruology in either reptiles or leopard geckos?


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Could anyone at Liverpool University be any help? They have the tropical medicine dept. there??

Just a thought - anything I can help with research wise form an inbiased non leo owner side, let me know


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> So the mission would be to find someone with extensive knowledge in to neruology in either reptiles or leopard geckos?


Yeah, a person/organisation/university/breeder/papers...its an idea.


----------



## the-tick (Nov 27, 2006)

phewwwwwwwwwwwwww 

Just read all this.

I must say as a leo owner in waiting (not an enigma btw) I am pleased to hear breeders and enthusiasts happy to talk about a potential issue and hopefully working to see if it is or isn't genetic and if it can/can't be safely bred out of the bloodline.

As mentioned in other posts these problems are showing up in other animals (not to mention the massively inbred aristocracy families of Europe) so better to investigate the issue rather than put up the defensive barrier and tell new owners that their Norwegian blue is resting or pining for the fjords and not indeed dead (thank you Monty Python for that analogy)


----------



## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Don't know if its any help but i can help advising on the results and what you will encounter with the leo in the coming months/years.

I'm an ex reptile Veterinary nurse who runs a sanctuary for sick and disabled reptiles and i've seent his sooo many times and deal with this on a reg basis its across the board not so much as in the enigmas but all lines have this problem present and sadly lots end up here and we've been treating thes problems over 22 years 

Prognoses is it always good and the end result is shortend life span around 3-4 years muscle wastage and depression  

These not a great deal can be done as the only way i find is to hand feed them as the problems will not get much better but not always worse 

We breed leos high and low end as well and i can honestly say I've bred all my lot last year back to wild leos which we managed to obtain years back just to try to strenghen future lines 

feel free to PM me if i can help with any info 
good luck paula xx


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Thank you Sarah for pointing us to this thread which we have now read in its entirety!

We bought a pair of 'pure' Enigma's from Kelli @ HISS in December last year too, admittedly without being aware of the potential issues being discussed here. 

We have witnessed periodic circling of our female and have isolated her despite the fact that it does not appear to have affected her appetite or anything else as far as we can see. To be fair to Kelli the female we bought from her only started showing these signs in late January this year.

The male however has shown none of the signs described in this thread and has been mating with a number of other morphs including normals. The question is whether he could potentially be carrying a 'defective' inheritable trait or not?

This really is the crux of the matter - we have (as others have) only OBSERVED unusual behaviour that is not necessarilly confined to the Enigma morph although it seems that more cases are being reported. Whether this is because it is so new or not I cannot speculate.

Until it is known whether it is a genetic defect or not none of us will know and all we can do is speculate. This will need scientific proof by those far more qualified than us and I suspect the majority of people on this forum.

What we can do as responsible small breeders who wish to build a reputation for producing affordable quality animals to the hobby is be totally transparent about our stock, its origin and breeding methods. This includes a responsibility not to breed animals we suspect to have any form of genetic problem or defect.We would hate to think that animals were deliberately being sold with Known issues by any breeder.

Whilst for most of us the issue is not about financial gain I'm sure many of us look forward to the revenue received from surplus animals to help towards funding our hobby and improving our collections. We are also sure that perfectly healthy Enigma's will continue to be produced and made available. After all the potential with this morph to create more 'living art' (thanks RT!) is huge and worthy of exploration in 'defect free' specimens.

We suspect however that the ongoing debate about the Enigma morph will continue . Caution will be the watchword to any prospective buyer as it is when buying any animal that is line bred, interbred, purported to be location specific or any number of other factors.

We believe the issue needs investigating further and are willing to create a 'video diary' of our Enigma's and the male's offspring to provide as research material if it will help advance our understanding or contribute to 'solving' the issue (if indeed it is capable of being solved or if there is an issue to be solved!).


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Some excellent points Nick glad your not dismissing the possible genetic defect.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Some excellent points Nick glad your not dismissing the possible genetic defect.


It would be unwise not to but the word POSSIBLE is an important one at this stage of the debate!!

If our male's offspring exhibit any signs or not as the case will be it will be a good indicator as to whether it is a problem with the genetic make up of this morph or something else.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

This is extremely interesting...

as i said way back in the early pages of this thread females of all species are more affected by neuro issues than males... ( this may or may not be hormonal as in MS etc but it is stil worth noting to collate information about any enigma study)

sometimes when hormonal influences begin to kick in neuro issues are visible whilst staying silent with regards to OUTWARD signs until then..

that does not mean in any way that inwardly an animal is not having problems it only means they are not visible enough for a person to notice.

many MS sufferers for instance who are female begin to feel well during pregnancy due to the release of the chemical prolactin which has been noted in studies in mice to partially heal lesions in the brain... however whent he prolactin stops being produces usually when the baby from a pregnancy is around 6 months the mother can go into severe remission due to the lesions being newly exposed.

it may also be worth noting that IF the enigma issue is neuro related the enigmas showing no signs may NOT be visual carriers but genetic carriers.. therefore seeming fine but stil passing down genetic unlocking keys for the neuro problem??? Again this may not be the case which is why holding back babies seems sensible...



I think the point in holding back enigma babies for signs until they are actually as old as the ones who were LATE in showing signs would be the honest sensible and moral thing to do here.


I imagine some breeders will do nothing less whereas some will say.. wel my adults are fine . my babies are fine therefore everything must be fine..

I am glad irrespective of this debate at times becoming arguementative and difficult aswell as somewhat uncomfrotable for some it has been allowed to be carried through.

Despite the differences of opinion it now seems almost all leo breeders commenting on this thread are willing to try to pull together and seek support from specialists and other individulas to get to the bottom of this.

nerological issues in any species is frightening to watch and heartbreaking for the animal and in turn does nothing positive for the breeders or keepers of whatever species it may be,.,.,,

snakes, lizards, dogs etc etc

well done to the people who have made safe and decisive decisions regarding this issue..

and whilst none of us knows at present if it IS 100% neurological this thread has opened up a conversation much required in the Uk about the enigma leo..


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> It would be unwise not to but the word POSSIBLE is an important one at this stage of the debate!!
> 
> If our male's offspring exhibit any signs or not as the case will be it will be a good indicator as to whether it is a problem with the genetic make up of this morph or something else.


 
i agree Nick *possible* is the word, i would also like to add two more points first of all over 2000 people have looked at this thread and i am therfore sure that if indeed it was as wide spread as stated then surely there would be more people posting and saying 'hey i have the same problem'?

the fact that there hasn't shows to me that as mentioned on other forums this is a few isolated cases.
Out of 4 enigma breeder owners on here, no one has reported symptoms so extreme as the posters gecko, only a slight ccircling as mentioned by yourself.

I am 100% positive that if anyone else had bought a enigma and it displayed these symptoms then with such a high price tag there would be a que of people jumping up and down the fact there is not speaks for itself.
If the enigma i had bought for mark had show any of these symptoms, then on a first note i would of not of bred with it and second i would be one seriously unhappy person and would ask others and post on forums to reaearch why however this is not the case and mine does not display any of the symptoms described.


Another point i would like to add is that from my understanding this gecko was bought from another breeder, this narrows down the search in the uk to a selctive few and therfore for this gecko to have had saleable offspring it must of been one of the very first in the country so we are now not only looking at numbers involved but how long they have been here in the uk at the most i would say 3 years, surely by now if this was so widespread the numbers involved would be huge?????.

While it has been agreed that some of the early enigmas produced displayed these symptoms with the outcrossing done by kelli and the continued outcrossing by others breeders in the usa and now here these symptoms have all but disappeared this to me therefore accounts to the lack of numbers of people stating they also have problems.
Therefore this breeders enigma that produced rainwater offspring may not of known of this and like you said sometimes the symptoms may not show up until a few months after, i do not believe for one minute that this breeder knowingly would sell a gecko and afect his excellent reputation by doing so and so for diablo to imply he does without actually talking to the breeder concerned is wrong.
I am 100% sure that if indeed this first enigma does indeed carry these traits that this breeder would remove him/her from their breeding programme as any responsible breeder would.

Another issue which confuses me is in december you reported rainwater that you felt there were problems with your'e enigma and posted on the forum voicing your'e concerns, from how long of having the gecko did you notice these problems and did you speak to the breeder involved?
again i noticed no other people reported the same problems but were aware they had heard things on another forum again alot of views but no others affected.

Also i note that at the end of january you put a post asking for breeders of red eye enigmas with a interest to buy, now please do not take offence but if i personally spent alot of money on a gecko to find that my gecko was suffering as much as your's the very last thing i would do would be to actively search out another enigma, i would be staying way clear of enigmas especially after buying one so affected and the fact you were willing to pay more for a red eye completely confuses me.

I would like to add that if any of my enigma hatchlings displayed any of these symptoms i myself would not sell them and i believe many of the breeders on here feel the same, indeed if i sold a gecko which later showed these symptoms and i could see this for myself i would not hesitate in refunding any moneys spent and would then ask my reptile vet to do further investigation which he would happily take part in.

So the good news is that of all the red eye enigmas bought last year and this year none have showed any symptoms and i believe the continued outcrossing by kelli and others has eradicated early problems which is great news for all of this unusual wonderful morph.
My own enigma hatchling is sat in front of me staring as i type lol and getting bigger and healthier by the day, he shows no circling and no light sensitivity and looks one healthy happy gecko which at the end of the day all us owners and breeders strive to achieve.: victory:

so please there is no concrete proof, no hard eveidence and only possible thoughts, i welcome any investigation the sooner this is cleared up the better it is for all concerned including the motph itself.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Well said Mel. Completely agree.

Ben


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Im sorry mel but you dont have all the facts surrounding Rainwaters enigma im not doing this to be arugementitive but you cant be sure what Diablo was told by this breeder you also cant be sure what rainwater was told by them either. 
I know what they were both told and after a 4 hour convasation with rainwater on the phone yesterday i can say that she has had lenghtly chats with the breeder she got her enigma from. 
Not only that i agree maybe the breeder didnt know the leo was showing signs of illness but surely as this has come to light te breeder should note that they may produce affected off spring. 

Not only this but the circumstances surrounding the hatching of Rainwaters enigma doesnt add up. 

I have personally spoken to the breeder on occassion and have disturbed their dinner once or twice, so they are aware of who i am (in case they think im crazy) 

I have to say that until either the breeder or Rainwater release the information your asking for i dont think i should confirm it.

You saying the numbers would be huge but they wouldnt this year is the first real breeding season enigmas will have in the UK being produced by UK enigma breeders like your self. 
The numbers after this year will start to increase and unless people all over the place not just the UK are prepared to remove any enigma showing signs of neurological distress then we wont get any where. 

(So, they become an expensive pet but a pretty one at that.) 

I know there are a fair few breeders that would be willing to keep their enigmas as pets just like you have said, but there are also a few that wont,(not saying the breeder of rainwaters enigma wouldnt) but i know when we was over in hamm there were many enigmas on sale and mentioning no names a breeder willingly offered people an enigma which was showing the same signs as the others that are having problems. 

If it makes any difference the enigma was a snow female. 
So no way was it light sensitive.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

I think a big responsibility is on buyers as well to not buy an animal that they are not confident is 100% healthy than who can the irresponsible breeders sell to??? 

All enigma owners on here (including myself) have stated they will not sell unhealthy specimens so i dont know what the problem is between all of us?????

There ARE healthy enigmas that can and will be bred/sold by some of us.

And there ARE enigmas showing some suspect signs that will certainly NOT be sold by any of us. 

So lets just all be careful and look forward to trying to breed 100% healthy specimens of the morph. 

Ben


----------



## K.J.Geckos (Sep 7, 2006)

the thing is with this much in breeding in leopard geckos of today...things like this have just been waiting to happen for years.even the geckos such as enigmas and super snows they wont have the strong dna and best genes as a normal would of had 20 years ago.i think enigmas is a prime example of what is happening to the species as a whole but that still wont stop people from cashing in on them.if you have joe blogs who breeds for money and thinks he can get £500 for a gecko,if its got the neuro problem or not...do you really think hes not going to breed them?of course he would.sadly some people dont see animals as pets like we do.they just buy them and breed breed breed.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Mel, its good to see that you are more than willing to stop breeding and investigate, should you observe abnormanl behavour. I for one never thought you would react any differently. In fact all those that have posted I would consider to be responsible breeders who would stop in an instant. 

This is confirmed by nicks post, he has observed an issue in one, and has not been breeding it.

It may be the case that Diablos statement should have read 'some breeders' in place of 'many breeders'. I wonder if it had would you have reacted so strongly in defence of the morph, if you did not feel it was a personal attack on yourself?

You say the numbers involved are small, and if the problem was as reported, then the numbers would be huge. How many enigmas are in the UK? I bet its not many.

I may be wrong, but the posters on the thread own somewhere like 5 or 6, and there are problems of different degrees with 2 of them. at best thats a third of the animals, owned by 2 out of 4 people (your count, i havnt checked), so, a third of known animals owned by half the declared owners! Thats way to high a rate of problem for my liking, and thats just the proveable facts from those on this thread.

I think we need to collate confirmable numbers of enigmas in the uk, how many show signs of porblems and what gene line they are from, in order to try to establish if there is a patten or particula source of the 'porblems' Then we can start to study the problems and work out what is going on with them, with an aim to positivly identifying the issue. Only then can anyone hope to solve it.

On a final note, IF i were a breeder who was selling problem enigmas, I may be tempted to keep quite, not join any discussion, and do what i can to keep anyone who complained quite about it. IF i was such a breeder, I would not want anyone to know and not publish figures, or tell anyone, even if I did have to cull many animals.

I would hate to think there are any breeders out there, in the UK or US, but who knows?


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

when i said the numbers would be huge i meant in the usa as well, the usa are so far ahead of us especially with this morph that i am sure that if this was indeed the case there would be hundreds of breeders/owners jumping up and down ut there simply isn't, i am sure breeders worldwide would of be asking for a more detailed study and you would have forums full of breeders and owners complaining which simply is'nt happening therfore it seems that there is no huge collection of enigmas displaying these symptoms maybe one or two and not all are showing every symptom as i said alot of what is mentioned is the red eye enigma s with a more sensitivity to light.
My enigma is happy, thriving and doing his bit no problem and mine is not alone i do feel there are more healthy enigmas than not and this has been confirmed with the amount of views and non negative posts.

No i don't know all the facts regarding the enigma belonging to rainwater however diablo implied the breeder knowingly sold a affected gecko and did not disclose this to the buyer, i cannot believe that 1. a breeder would do this and 2 would risk his reputation for the sake of money, this breeder who i think you mean is not money based and has never been and is respected throughout the gecko world both here and in the usa

again you mention the *many enigmas *sold at hamm, out of these many enigmas being sold some of which were sold by top usa respected breeders who many did you see showing symptoms again there are loads out there and yet data on this is very small,incomplete and no scientific evidence, surely id one morph was so badly affected there would be hundreds of people complaing with their hundreds of animals.

re, someone selling a affected enigma are you honestly saying one breeder was publically advertising a enigma affected, do you 1. not findd this a little far fetched i mean really in all honesty if this was the case and indeed a gecko was effected i cannot for one minute believe a breeder was ther at the show showing everyone let alone trying to sell it.

Even enigma that are not red eyed have a more brown eye than normal geckos and this is why it is said some of these are slight light sensitive.

As for the uk breeders well there is 4 people on this forum that own one and i iamgine there are more out there therfore by now anyone that bought one would be reporting these problems, google would explode by the amount of info on the enigma and yet it isn't. it seems the whole world is confident there is no problem hence why i felt that this thread began as a witch hunt on the morph, it is a extremely popular morph, one of the most exciting morphs to come out with so much potential.
Again ithas been noted that other morphs show similar symptoms but this has been dismissed as not being relevant, all geckos with the same symptoms need to be investigated you canot exclude a group of animals because it simply does not suit you're argument:bash:
Diablo stated it was his mission to tell the world:crazy:, tell the world what, there is nothing to tell no concrete proof no hard evidence and at the moment just based on a few personal opinions and experiences, it seems such a shame than someone who is so comitted to geckos would willing try and destroy a morphs credibilty without doing hard scienntific research and tests and is just basing his info from a few selective forums.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

benjrobinson said:


> I think a big responsibility is on buyers as well to not buy an animal that they are not confident is 100% healthy than who can the irresponsible breeders sell to???
> 
> All enigma owners on here (including myself) have stated they will not sell unhealthy specimens so i dont know what the problem is between all of us?????
> 
> ...


I agree to a point, I wont say all, but i do trust the vast majority of breeders of enigmas to be open and honest about thier stock, engima or otherwise. 

However there are those who are not.I know that as fact, but its not my choice to say more than that as I was not directly involved.

Yes buyers should be selective in buying, but i think its not reasonable to expect them to understand all the risks involved in genetics, thats our job.

One point that would be interesting to add to the data I last suggested, is the age when purchased, age when signs presented themselves and if those signs diminised, at what age, and with what care or treatment.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Mel, its good to see that you are more than willing to stop breeding and investigate, should you observe abnormanl behavour. I for one never thought you would react any differently. In fact all those that have posted I would consider to be responsible breeders who would stop in an instant.
> 
> This is confirmed by nicks post, he has observed an issue in one, and has not been breeding it.
> 
> ...


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> I agree to a point, I wont say all, but i do trust the vast majority of breeders of enigmas to be open and honest about thier stock, engima or otherwise.
> 
> However there are those who are not.I know that as fact, but its not my choice to say more than that as I was not directly involved.
> 
> ...


 
well tony i honestly belive there are no breeders on here that take the attuide, and i am confident in ps geckos,ark reptiles,benjrobinson and myself that only 100% healthy enigmas will be produced by us all.
we will all comunicate with each other as many of us have already and share knowledge between us as we have often done in the past, so rest assured as far as i can see there are no breeders with that type of couldn't care less/keep quiet attuide on here: victory:


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Mel, you took my words out of context.

the IF was specultive. 

in other words I would have thought that any such breeder would, in my opinion, want to keep it quite.

Everyone you listed, yourself included have stood up and been counted, none of those you list have shyed away from the discussion. This confirms my thoughts that those who have added to the debate do not have anything to hide.

I do think mayby diablos use of the word many may have been misleading and maybe the word some would have better.


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

ok, had a quick chat with a guy involved in studies of leopard gecko brain cells...

Hello Katherine,
I have never heard of this behavior. Are you sure it is not an eye/ear infection that is messing with their vestibular system?'

could it be enigmas may be more prone to such infections? could this explain why the condition is not apparent at birth? why neglected geckos display symptoms? whay sometimes they 'grow out' of it?

Just something to throw into the mix...


----------



## slimrob (Mar 11, 2006)

*wow that took some reading!*

well having just read the entire tread, and perhaps being potentially a enigma breeder i feel a response is required.
Firstly such a passionate and involved debate can only be good for the future of not only the enigma, but also all gecko breeders and "breeds" in the uk and abroad. 
It is only from open debate that issues involving breeding etc, can come to "public" attention. 
The down-side from all this debating, seems that for certain posters, the issue has become somewhat personal with is understandable considering the feeling that "reputations" are at stake, and as a result i have observed some sweeping statements (ulterior motive or not) that have been made without the support of actual fact.
I feel that it cannot be denied that this issue keeps appearing on various forums, and as a responsible owner/ breeder who will contribute to the future gene pool of these geckos, it is mine and "our" duty to ensure the well being of our offspring for future generations.
We are all aware and have observed various adverse/ peculiar traits expressed in different morphs including within "lines" of established breeders, however to my knowledge none have been investigated to any degree.
Perhaps now is the time to buck the trend. Various ideas have been expressed here as to how this may be approached. Personally I would be more than willing to add a few pages to my site dedicated to pooling our knowledge and experiences of the enigma morph, perhaps even starting a forum dedicated to the enigma.
As a start to this I have eggs incubating for enigma and I am more than willing to post every aspect of their devlopment (good or bad!) as a start of perhaps a reference resource.
My motive as you will see if you visit my site is biased towards the genetic devlopment of morphs etc, and view it as a passion of mine, and have no fininacial need to sell, other than space requirements.
I must also add that as a direct result of experiences and views expressed here, that I will now review what i will breed, and any enigmas i may sell will have been kept and observed for a much longer period of time to ensure no problems arising-(suggestions for how long will be apreciated).
I am also aware that not all breeders will share my concerns, so perhaps a guild or similar could be started.
so lets turn this passion into a positive, let me know what you think...


----------



## slimrob (Mar 11, 2006)

*wow that took some reading!*

well having just read the entire tread, and perhaps being potentially a enigma breeder i feel a response is required.
Firstly such a passionate and involved debate can only be good for the future of not only the enigma, but also all gecko breeders and "breeds" in the uk and abroad. 
It is only from open debate that issues involving breeding etc, can come to "public" attention. 
The down-side from all this debating, seems that for certain posters, the issue has become somewhat personal with is understandable considering the feeling that "reputations" are at stake, and as a result i have observed some sweeping statements (ulterior motive or not) that have been made without the support of actual fact.
I feel that it cannot be denied that this issue keeps appearing on various forums, and as a responsible owner/ breeder who will contribute to the future gene pool of these geckos, it is mine and "our" duty to ensure the well being of our offspring for future generations.
We are all aware and have observed various adverse/ peculiar traits expressed in different morphs including within "lines" of established breeders, however to my knowledge none have been investigated to any degree.
Perhaps now is the time to buck the trend. Various ideas have been expressed here as to how this may be approached. Personally I would be more than willing to add a few pages to my site dedicated to pooling our knowledge and experiences of the enigma morph, perhaps even starting a forum dedicated to the enigma.
As a start to this I have eggs incubating for enigma and I am more than willing to post every aspect of their devlopment (good or bad!) as a start of perhaps a reference resource.
My motive as you will see if you visit my site is biased towards the genetic devlopment of morphs etc, and view it as a passion of mine, and have no fininacial need to sell, other than space requirements.
I must also add that as a direct result of experiences and views expressed here, that I will now review what i will breed, and any enigmas i may sell will have been kept and observed for a much longer period of time to ensure no problems arising-(suggestions for how long will be apreciated).
I am also aware that not all breeders will share my concerns, so perhaps a guild or similar could be started.
so lets turn this passion into a positive, let me know what you think... 


Firstly i must state i do own a 1yr male enigma and do plan to breed him this year although perhaps not to the degree i had previously planned (cards on the table!) wich i must state displays none of the symptons discussed.


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

melanie said:


> Tony if i had a problem with any of my animals and suspected it to be genetic there is no way on earth i would be keeping quiet i would be jumping up and down telling all and demanding investigation however i am not why... because my enigmas do not have a problem


Isn't that what Rainwater's doing? She suspects that her Enigma has a genetic problem and is "jumping up and down". Diablo has heard of reports of other Enigmas having a similar problem, and posted some cases...? Yet when Rainwater / Diablo suggested that the problem may be genetic and may be more apparent in the Engima than in the species as a whole, you told them to "stop their witch hunt" and stop saying it was genetic until proven out...? I suppose you are lucky in that your Enigmas don't have a problem, but that doesn't mean that other people's can't have problems, and it doesn't mean that they can't bring the problems to light, bring in examples of other cases, and discuss it, throw ideas around about a cause etc.

As a neutral "outsider" who has an interest in morphs and genetics, but not in Leopard Geckos (having not owned one for near on 10 years), I have heard far more stories of Enigma's having these characteristic problems than any other morph of Leo. When you consider that there are probably far fewer actual Enigmas around than other morphs, that is going to equate to a much higher percentage of Enigmas with a problem. I doubt there are many people on this forum with Enigmas, which may be why so few have stepped forwards. Whilst it certainly doesn't seem to be *every* Enigma that has a problem, the rate of problems certainly seems to be higher than the base rate for the species (as PureJurassic I think it was explained a long time back with his analogy about if the human base rate is 3%, and the Japanese have a 10% rate of problems, then you would say there was a problem with the Japanese).

Suppose the problem is caused by a recessive gene - either that cause a developmental abnormality with the brain, or that affects the vestibular system directly, or the vestibular immune system. If at the time of the Enigma mutation (or shortly before, or shortly after) there was another mutation which created this recessive "problem" gene, then a lot of Enigmas are going to be carriers of it. It could even be an incompatibility of the Enigma gene (it seems to affect a lot of things that we *can* see - who's to say it doesn't affect things we can't see directly?) If it's a single gene, then there would only be a 50% transmission rate from an unaffected Het. A pair of unaffected Hets would produce 25% affected babies, so the numbers of affected Enigmas wouldn't be overly high, but it would be a significant number, and the problem would (for now) be pretty much confined to the Enigma morph. But there would still be a problem.

Perhaps if Diablo carried out his study to see if Enigmas originating from certain lines seem more prone to carrying the possible "problem" gene, it would point to an origin for it. Then it would be up to owners of Enigmas from those lines to decide what to do to halt the spread of it (if it is indeed a gene).

I don't generally go on Leo forums, but Rainwater's Enigma is certainly not the first case I've heard of this circling behaviour (which I personally would class as a genetic fault, not "personality" - maybe "grumpiness" in a Blizzard is "personality", but a fault that inhibits hunting and requires handfeeding is not a "personality trait" of the morph). Whilst I have heard of other cases of similar (but not identical) behaviour in non-Enigma Leos, they seem to occur at a far lower rate. Maybe the Enigma behaviour could have originated from one of those other morphs - afterall, it went through a bottleneck not long back when the first Enigma mutation was found (in that, *ALL* Enigmas are related to each other, and will share some of the same genes - why not the "problem" gene I hypothesised earlier as well, if it was present in the first animal that showed the Enigma mutation, or entered the Enigma line soon after by crossing an early Enigma to a non-Enigma carrier? This would be bad luck, but would mean that all Enigmas from that point onwards in that genetic line would have a chance of carrying the gene (as would some "Enigma-Siblings", which is why if it is a hidden gene that doesn't interact with the Enigma gene, it's important to get rid of it now, before it spreads to the non-Enigma population...)

As I have no vested interest in Enigmas or non-Enigmas, I hope that won't be seen as a Witch Hunt - just a few ideas that popped up whilst I was reading the thread. It's an interesting potential problem, and I'd be very interested to hear what Diablo can find out about whether all problematic Enigmas can be traced back to a single animal / line. Obviously that would require complete transparency from breeders either side of the Atlantic, which may or may not be wishful thinking...

Andy


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Mel, you took my words out of context.
> 
> the IF was specultive.
> 
> ...


 
thank you tony for your'e support to the breeders listed and in many of your'e posts a voice of reason: victory:

re. diablo i have never had a problem with him however like you i sometimes feels he types before he thinks amd perhaps in future should type and then re read before posting or ask another voice of reason his wife faith to have a read:whistling2: this is not the first time he has created problems with the type before i think attuide and although i welcome his research i hope he learns how to communciate more efficiencly. i do not wish to continue this explaining myself to diablo and forever feeling the need to convince him that all us breeders are as interested as he is, probably more so as we actually own them but where he see's only one side of things us and relys on info from sites and forums as owners and breeders we have personal physical hands on evidenece of the morph and so feel that as a group we also have input.
none of us are thinking of our pockets and i am pleased now that this indeed has been recognised as not a case for caliming what we do.
I will happily contribute on the sucess or dimese of any enigma hatchlings i have and can state out of the 4 eggs laid, 2 enigmas have hatched, one normal dead in shell, one enigma dead in shell now i myself are trying to understand why however i am not overduely concerned as i have eggs not hatch from other morphs and this may be down to other things however i will keep a record of any future eggs and the young and would happily contribute to slimrobs page.

One thing i thought last night was if this problem which some to pecieve is nurological then one why when some enigmas hatch show no signs and then months later do and then it reseloves itself
why do some show intial signs and then weks later show none.

if it is neurological how come it doesn't seem to be a degenitve type of thing when the symptoms become worse.
if neurlogical at birth and improved i can understand but surely neuro related later in life and down to gentetics and not be degentive is hard to understand.
plus there is such a wide variety of symptoms which can be put down to other means other than genetic and not all enigmas experience it, not all enigmas show all the symptoms and other morphs too so it again is not only contributed to enigmas.

re. selling of enigmas , we have decided that a review of each enigma should be made monthly and we will not consider selling any till atleast 8 months old, As our own enigma shows no signs and our hatchlings themselves show no signs we don't expect their offspring to show any either.
if during the 8months any one hatchling shows even one sign then that gecko will be removed from sale and from breeding, it will not be sold as not to breed at a reduced price because i cannot trust this won't be done, therfore i will keep any geckos that do this includes any morph from my breeding collection, this has always been my intention with any morph and continues to be the same.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Some more input:

This was reported on GeckoForum.net by Mel & Keith of Concrete Jungle Geckos

Very low light - No circiling



Medium light: squints eyes and shows sensitivity to light


Bright light: closes eyes, very sensitive to light


Food for thought?
Maybe Nick can do a bit of research with his female, see if it reacts a similar way?

Also a post from Kelli H:
"Most act completly normal, some exhibit a slight "slowness", a few are really weird acting (walking in circles). In no way do ALL of them walk in circles (sorry Albey, but I've produced over a hundred Enigmas and I know this is not the case








Of course just about everyone is doing outcrossing, so it is just going to take time to see if this is able to be bred out of the line or not. Oh, also many of them do seem to outgrow their starnge behavior".

And another who has experience:
Shaun Pruitt of Leggo My Gecko - Home
have noticed no circling or anything of that nature at all with my male Enigma Het Bell I got from Kelli. I have hatched two Red Eye Enigma offspring from the one breeding I have done with him so far and both of those babies show the circling action, one more than the other. As Mel & Keith pointed out, this is happening when there is bright light. I have watched them in their tubs when they are pushed back in the rack and movement is perfectly normal, but when you pull the tub out into the bright light, there is immediate circling, again one hatchling more than the other. To me, this proves it is light sensitivity in my opinion, not neurological conditions.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

missk said:


> ok, had a quick chat with a guy involved in studies of leopard gecko brain cells...
> 
> Hello Katherine,
> I have never heard of this behavior. Are you sure it is not an eye/ear infection that is messing with their vestibular system?'
> ...


 
yes i agree this does need to be investigated more and would explain the not apparent at birth and then appearing and then disappearing, my vet had also not heard of a genetic problem where it appears and disappears


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

I am no expert on nurological matters, but I do have two nephews who do suffer what is classed as a nurological condition. Many will have met them both over the weekend, and will still be unaware that they have these issues.

Both of them have trigger factors, ie something that sparks off the behaviour, and in the past have needed medication for it. They are now more aware if it and often can avoid the trigger, or indeed break the cycle of events with no intervention. Sometimes we do need to intervine ourselves.

The brain is a very complicated organ, that is hardly known about, but we do know that much of it is chemical induced. it could be that some lines of enigmas when matched to other non enigma lines producing the chemical building blocks to make the effects to visual apperance, have the side effect elsewhere, ie the brain.

It could be that bright light (or indeed any light depending on the severity of the condition) could produce a chemical reacation that then affects some other part of the brain.

I wont get to deep into it, but the standard genetic code for a leo produces a wild type. By selective breeding we concontrate different genes into the correct places to make an effect on visual appearence. Now, to my knowledge, all the different genes are found naturally, none are modified by mankind, all mankind has done is match them together.

What i think is central to these problems is the make up of the genes. the condons and the amino acids produced are different in each gene, and thes work with other genes and thus amino acids to produce certain results.

Is it not possible that whilst the enigma gene may be fully stable and in its self not have any side effects, when it is present with another gene, the two produce certain amino acids, protiens or mutated protiens that then affect brain tissues or motor nurone systems or indeed any other sub structure.

I would suggest that maybe whilst the enigma gene is not intrinsicly faulty, there seems to be the possiblilty that its amino acid and protien composistion is or can be volotile when present with other compostions from other gene lines.

just food for thought, may well be way of base.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> I am no expert on nurological matters, but I do have two nephews who do suffer what is classed as a nurological condition. Many will have met them both over the weekend, and will still be unaware that they have these issues.
> 
> Both of them have trigger factors, ie something that sparks off the behaviour, and in the past have needed medication for it. They are now more aware if it and often can avoid the trigger, or indeed break the cycle of events with no intervention. Sometimes we do need to intervine ourselves.
> 
> ...


this is very well put and covers many of the issues i also find myself having... although i suspect your mephews and myself have very differing reasons for our neurology problems the tirggers and reactions may be very similar as they are with many neurological health conditions.

as you wil know from dealing with your nephews at times things can SEEM ok but the actual underlying issue wil remain.. and at any time resurface in many different ways... some individually at any given time and sometimes in multiple symtoms

this can cause apparant changes from day to day minute to minute.. not only physically but with mental and cognitive perception and memory also..

emotional reactivity can also be affected


the scanning of brains etc gives us very basic understanding and so many other factos most unknown affet the complexity of any neuro issue..

MS 20 years considered a phsycological disorder.. and look at the lepas and bounds made with that...


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

melanie said:


> One thing i thought last night was if this problem which some to pecieve is nurological then one why when some enigmas hatch show no signs and then months later do and then it reseloves itself
> why do some show intial signs and then weks later show none.
> 
> if it is neurological how come it doesn't seem to be a degenitve type of thing when the symptoms become worse.
> ...


With many human diseases, there is no signs at birth, but symptoms appear when older - examples would include Tourette's and Schizophrenia. It is possible that it's neurological, but not present from birth. If it has an onset of around 6 months or so, would that roughly equate to the gecko equivalent of puberty?? Many human neurological problems appear around this time... I would assume that there are hormonal changes in a gecko during maturity. As people have already said, the brain is a very sensitive organ, and the changes in hormone levels could easily upset a brain that hasn't made the right connections during development...




melanie said:


> re. selling of enigmas , we have decided that a review of each enigma should be made monthly and we will not consider selling any till atleast 8 months old, As our own enigma shows no signs and our hatchlings themselves show no signs we don't expect their offspring to show any either.
> if during the 8months any one hatchling shows even one sign then that gecko will be removed from sale and from breeding, it will not be sold as not to breed at a reduced price because i cannot trust this won't be done, therfore i will keep any geckos that do this includes any morph from my breeding collection, this has always been my intention with any morph and continues to be the same.


Just out of interest, if any of your Enigmas showed symptoms during the 8 months, would you then keep *ALL* of the babies as non-breeding pets? If it does turn out to be a recessive gene causing it (or indeed anything else that can be "carried" and not displayed), then the siblings of affected Enigmas may also carry the defect. Surely in order to prevent the spread you would need to keep all babies, assuming it is genetic?

Andy


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

HadesDragons said:


> With many human diseases, there is no signs at birth, but symptoms appear when older - examples would include Tourette's and Schizophrenia. It is possible that it's neurological, but not present from birth. If it has an onset of around 6 months or so, would that roughly equate to the gecko equivalent of puberty?? Many human neurological problems appear around this time... I would assume that there are hormonal changes in a gecko during maturity. As people have already said, the brain is a very sensitive organ, and the changes in hormone levels could easily upset a brain that hasn't made the right connections during development...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
yes without question i would indeed keep *all* the babies if any showed these symptoms and *would not* breed any i have already stated this and also stated none would be sold as 'pet only' at a reduced price as i couldn't trust that this would be upheld, if any of these siblings displayed all of the symtoms and i felt their quality of life was severely affected then i would seek veternairy advice on the next steps to take and would consider a gecko being humannaly culled by a vet rather than continue to watch it suffer and i would not cull a gecko for any other reason (space or finacial housing and feeding).I have always had this as part of my plans and this has covered every morph i breed and therfore is not limited to enigmas.

although i understand you breed dragons, i also believe you see there are NO differences in my attuides to responsible breeding to your's.
I believe that you as a breeder have guidelines and standards and although we don't breed the same lizard i hope you also now believe that my own standards and morals are no less than your's.: victory:


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Why has no one commented on my post with the vidoes on it? Can no one see them?

I would've thought having clear evidance that light is a factor here there would be discussion's about it. Instead of how humans suffer neuro problems and how it could _possibly_ and _loosly_ be compared to the Enigmas - Plenty of what if's and no comment on a set of Videos giving facts.... Mmmmm:hmm:


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

no comment made yet on the videos as i havent had time to watch them properly or form any view, but I will !


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Why has no one commented on my post with the vidoes on it? Can no one see them?
> 
> I would've thought having clear evidance that light is a factor here there would be discussion's about it. Instead of how humans suffer neuro problems and how it could _possibly_ and _loosly_ be compared to the Enigmas - Plenty of what if's and no comment on a set of Videos giving facts.... Mmmmm:hmm:


 
Hi pete and sarah both me and mark have looked at this video and this is yet another thing which confirms light sensitivity, normal behavoiur in dark light, very bright light circirling turn the lights down back to normal behavoiur.

another breeder also noticed this when he pulled his geckos from the stack and removed the hides there would be a intial reaction to light and once time was given for the eyes to adjust this circling would cease.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Mel~ Yes i am saying that there was a breeder in hamm selling a defected enigma, it was kept under the table and on looking at what was on offer we asked if there was anything else.
Which is when this enigma came out.

(Faith)


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Why has no one commented on my post with the vidoes on it? Can no one see them?
> 
> I would've thought having clear evidance that light is a factor here there would be discussion's about it. Instead of how humans suffer neuro problems and how it could _possibly_ and _loosly_ be compared to the Enigmas - Plenty of what if's and no comment on a set of Videos giving facts.... Mmmmm:hmm:


Those are pretty interesting videos. I noticed in the second one that as well as closing its eyes and circling, it also appeared to be unco-ordinated... Would that be an effect of pure light-sensitivity (having minimal leo experience, I wouldn't know if that's common in non-Enigmas or not).

It would be very interesting to see if Nick or Jenna's Enigmas behaved in similar ways. If they did, it would also raise some interesting ethical concerns over the future breeding or RE Enigmas (if it is indeed the RE that causes the hyper-sensitivity). I don't know how many leo owners are aware of "Silkback" Bearded Dragons (Google it in relation to Rob / Vicki Dachiu if you're not). They are Dragons without scales. They appear to live perfectly happy, normal lives, but have to have their enclosures modified slightly (a little cooler, humidity 10-15% higher, and less UV). Presumably hyper-sensitive leos would have to have their enclosures modified in a similar way (blackout paper / light-reducing glass etc). Now the Silkbacks kicked off a :censor:storm in the US, with many people openly boycotting the Dachius just for owning one (it's important to note that the Dachiu's - in so far as everyone is aware - have never bred a Silkback; theirs came from Italy), saying it was an abomination, on the grounds that it needed special conditions etc. From an ethical / moral standpoint, what would Enigma breeders / future breeders attitudes be towards the Enigmas (especially RE) if they were indeed hypersensitive to light. Would you continue working with them?



melanie said:


> yes without question i would indeed keep *all* the babies if any showed these symptoms and *would not* breed any i have already stated this and also stated none would be sold as 'pet only' at a reduced price as i couldn't trust that this would be upheld, if any of these siblings displayed all of the symtoms and i felt their quality of life was severely affected then i would seek veternairy advice on the next steps to take and would consider a gecko being humannaly culled by a vet rather than continue to watch it suffer and i would not cull a gecko for any other reason (space or finacial housing and feeding).I have always had this as part of my plans and this has covered every morph i breed and therfore is not limited to enigmas.
> 
> although i understand you breed dragons, i also believe you see there are NO differences in my attuides to responsible breeding to your's.
> I believe that you as a breeder have guidelines and standards and although we don't breed the same lizard i hope you also now believe that my own standards and morals are no less than your's.: victory:


I'm glad to hear that. I only asked because your first post addressing that said you would not sell *the affected gecko*, and I (mis)interpreted that as meaning that you may sell siblings. I'm glad that this is not the case, and apologise for any offence caused!

Andy


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> Hi pete and sarah both me and mark have looked at this video and this is yet another thing which confirms light sensitivity, normal behavoiur in dark light, very bright light circirling turn the lights down back to normal behavoiur.
> 
> another breeder also noticed this when he pulled his geckos from the stack and removed the hides there would be a intial reaction to light and once time was given for the eyes to adjust this circling would cease.


Can i ask what kind of enigma those are i dont want to asume so id like confirmation.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> Can i ask what kind of enigma those are i dont want to asume so id like confirmation.


I don't know, i guess contact Mel & Keith from concrete junlge and ask them, all it says in their post is this:
"We've only hatched one Enigma that circles. All of the Enigmas we've hatched have been Red-Eyed Enigmas so that's all I have to compare her to. The circling has lessened as she's aged and it appears to be light related. Here's some video I just took:".

I will pop a post up to confirm it with them.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Cheers PS Geckos 

Hades Personally if its proven to be light sensitive (which i can say jennas isnt as she has already tried this) then it may work out to onlt be an albino strain that makes the condition worse 
If we were to breed enigmas in the future and it was to be found more so in one or two morph crossings then no we personally wouldnt not breed that crossing. 

Re Rainwaters enigma, She has been fed in the dark and Rainwater also said (loads of pages back) that she had seen her enigma behave in the same way no matter what kind of lighting was being used.


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

A mate of mine wanted me to find him an Enigma for Hamm, I got in touch with a breeder I knew and he said he had one but it was a bad feeder, I went to have a look first before I told my mate what table to go and get the leo from, and the Enigma looked dodgy, it wasn't circling or anything like that but it did have some head wobbles and had to be hand fed so I told my mate to leave it.

The fact there IS a problem with Enigmas shouldn't be debateable IMO, there IS a problem with more than enough for it to be linked to certain breeders or for it to be a random mutation.

Extreme light sensitivity wouldn't contribute to the other factors listed, in the past, when I had albinos exposed to bright light, they would go to the darkest corner and get as low as they could and close their eyes, not circle around.

If you watch the Enigs movements in the videos, in all videos you have an unhealthy animal, in the first one, it is very unstable and looks unsure of where it is going, in the other two it is circling more but just as unsteady on its feet, so maybe the condition is always there, but the light sensitivity takes it to a more visible level?


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> Cheers PS Geckos
> 
> Hades Personally if its proven to be light sensitive (which i can say jennas isnt as she has already tried this) then it may work out to onlt be an albino strain that makes the condition worse
> If we were to breed enigmas in the future and it was to be found more so in one or two morph crossings then no we personally wouldnt not breed that crossing.
> ...


Could she provide a video diary? Just for research purposes, and constructed in the way the other video's were done, this could also be useful if we find someone who is willing to study this, i would like to see how her gecko reacts, until i saw the Video i posted i had no idea what the circling looked like.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> A mate of mine wanted me to find him an Enigma for Hamm, I got in touch with a breeder I knew and he said he had one but it was a bad feeder, I went to have a look first before I told my mate what table to go and get the leo from, and the Enigma looked dodgy, it wasn't circling or anything like that but it did have some head wobbles and had to be hand fed so I told my mate to leave it.


Can you PM the breeder in question?



Young_Gun said:


> The fact there IS a problem with Enigmas shouldn't be debateable IMO, there IS a problem with more than enough for it to be linked to certain breeders or for it to be a random mutation.


*NONE* of us have said there *isn't *an issue


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I can email him, but I doubt he would want his details posting, what do you want to know?

You haven't Sarah, I didn't mean you


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> I can email him, but I doubt he would want his details posting, what do you want to know?
> 
> You haven't Sarah, I didn't mean you


Oh God i would never post it, just wondering if it is the same person that someone else has mentioned.

Faith - really quick response my Mel & Keith 

"Yes, it is a Red Eyed Enigma. She's pretty much grown out of the circling but will still occasionally do it if the sun is shining directly in her eyes".


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> A mate of mine wanted me to find him an Enigma for Hamm, I got in touch with a breeder I knew and he said he had one but it was a bad feeder, I went to have a look first before I told my mate what table to go and get the leo from, and the Enigma looked dodgy, it wasn't circling or anything like that but it did have some head wobbles and had to be hand fed so I told my mate to leave it.
> 
> The fact there IS a problem with Enigmas shouldn't be debateable IMO, there IS a problem with more than enough for it to be linked to certain breeders or for it to be a random mutation.
> 
> ...


Cheers for your imput YG Let me know what your mates say in the EU. I'm now glad we can all discuss this problem properly and see if we can find out what it is


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

PSGeckos said:


> Why has no one commented on my post with the vidoes on it? Can no one see them?
> 
> I would've thought having clear evidance that light is a factor here there would be discussion's about it. Instead of how humans suffer neuro problems and how it could _possibly_ and _loosly_ be compared to the Enigmas - Plenty of what if's and no comment on a set of Videos giving facts.... Mmmmm:hmm:



Hi Everyone. 

Having just read through this entire thread, I have reached my own personal opinion on what I would like to see done, but will refrain from saying at present, but instead will attempt to draw everyone's attention to the post above from PSGeckos, and will also ask you to all go and look at the videos, and then comment afterwards on here please, as I am very interested in noting how many of you can see what I am seeing. The video links are on page 25, and 4th post from the top.

Thanks,

Maureen.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Could she provide a video diary? Just for research purposes, and constructed in the way the other video's were done, this could also be useful if we find someone who is willing to study this, i would like to see how her gecko reacts, until i saw the Video i posted i had no idea what the circling looked like.


im sure she has done so already tbh Rainwater already has vids its just asking her if she will post them.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Faith - really quick response my Mel & Keith
> 
> "Yes, it is a Red Eyed Enigma. She's pretty much grown out of the circling but will still occasionally do it if the sun is shining directly in her eyes".


 
Um is it possible that light sensitivity would be a sypmtom of the neurological problems?

Im sure they are symptoms of other things as well like some one else has said ear infections often affect balance but im sure a vet would pick that up pretty quickly. 

Im not saying that the RE enigmas dont have light sensitivity they prob would but Rainwater keeps Rainwater albinos which are the most light sensitive of all albinos.
And they react the same way as YG has discribed with other albinos


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

The gecko does look generally unstable. Could it be a case of the increased light levels causing pain and distress, making the gecko disorientated and circle? I don't see how this can be linked to neurology personally. VERY interesting unignorable video showing light to be a major factor (not necessarily cause, just causing enhanced expression of a problem, e.g. malformed inner ear or other balance organ (guess)). could be a balance issue though - circling is a giveaway but i don't know what the change in circle direction would mean in relation to that (circles in different directions in the clips).

edit


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

Faith said:


> Im sure they are symptoms of other things as well like some one else has said ear infections often affect balance but im sure a vet would pick that up pretty quickly.


has anyone taken an affected enigma to the vet? just curious


----------



## amazoncat (Feb 12, 2008)

I still haven't read through all the posts yet - I will do but I'd really appreciate it if Diablo and any others who have researched this would mind sharing their findings with me. I need to look into some current veterinary issues in order to apply to veterinary courses and this sounds like a really interesting issue to talk about. I would of course acknowledge any contributors.

Please email or pm me anything you've found.

Thanks very much,

Cat


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Yes Rainwaters enigma has been to the vets many times she has had it checked and double checked which is why she is so worried. 
She also takes in blind leos, tbh she is the best one on the fourm to ask about conditions of the eyes in leos, Including light sensitivity. 
As for the others mentioned im not sure if they have attended the vets as everyone believed that the circling was just another quirk of the morph. 

It would be a good idea to have them checked out as that way it would rule out anything like ear infections etc.


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

shes took in like 1 or 2 blind geckos which have died. 

Rainwater why dont you return the gecko back to the breeder?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Blazin said:


> shes took in like 1 or 2 blind geckos which have died.
> 
> Rainwater why dont you return the gecko back to the breeder?


Blazing i know for a fact she has had more experience with blind leopard geckos and geckos with bad eye conditions than mos of us on here. 

Why would she want to return it to the breeder? she has had her for nearly 8 months and grown very attached to her. 
Not only that if her enigma does have neruo problmes then how would she be able to make sure she is never bred from if she hands her back?


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

well 1. if the gecko does havea problem then ofcourse the breeder would be concerned and wouldnt breed it.
2. not like she payed for it. 
Shes not grown attached to it, shes slowly killing it. it needs to be handed back to the breeder who has a lot more experience and could properly asses the situation.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Blazin said:


> well 1. if the gecko does havea problem then ofcourse the breeder would be concerned and wouldnt breed it.
> 2. not like she payed for it.
> Shes not grown attached to it, shes slowly killing it. it needs to be handed back to the breeder who has a lot more experience and could properly asses the situation.


Who the hell do you think you are serioulsy 
How dare you say something like that "she is slowly killing it", Rainwater sits with her enigma every night feeding her because she will only feed by hand she is making sure it goes to the vets and gets the best possible care she can give it 
What makes you think the breeder has more experience? 
If this breeder had that much experience with the morph then why was she sold? Why were they not aware of the fact the leo was not "right" 
Secondly why is it that that breeder has not posted on this topic?


And i spose because she hasnt paid for it that its ok for the leo to be ill 
This thread is not about personal circumstance it is about what may or may not be wrong with the morph.
MONEY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT as many breeders have pointed out already!


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

First off. im Dan Keating. nice to meet you.
shes had more dead geckos then live ones! The breeder probably hasnt seen this thread yet. ALso im sure the breeder wouldnt of sold her if he knew she had problems and i think it should be returned to him to make a fully assessment of the situation and also to compare behaviour of other enigmas.

i was just emplying she didnt pay for it. dont make assumptions.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Blazin said:


> well 1. if the gecko does havea problem then ofcourse the breeder would be concerned and wouldnt breed it.
> 2. not like she payed for it.
> Shes not grown attached to it, shes slowly killing it. it needs to be handed back to the breeder who has a lot more experience and could properly asses the situation.


She is slowly killing it?

How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion given almost 30 pages on this thread?

The breeder she got if from knows very well its current condtion. whats their answer? 

So its worse if money changes hands is it, but if no money changes hands it dont matter? 

true colours and all that 

I am disgusted at your comments and you have fallen to an all time low in my view.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

What a truly awful thing to say! Surely it is plain to see that Rainwater is doing EVERYTHING she can for this gecko irrelevant of whether she paid for it or not.

She is slowly killing it my eye - she is doing whatever she can including vets, handfeeding, public postings etc to find out the problem and how to help her gecko.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Bull,
The breeder is well aware of the thread, also the breeder is well aware of the fact the leo has problems and has been informed of this many times.
Who said the breeder was a him be carefull what you say you could be commiting slander. 

I am fully aware of who you are dan, im also fully aware that you and rainwater have personal issue's which should not be brought in to this thread. 

Acording to the breeder they have no enigmas that show these signs so how can it be compared.

Unless everyone with an enigma that is showing signs goes and gives it to this breeder because you regard them has having so much experience with the morph. 
I can really see that happening 
Rainwater has videos of the actions of her leo and that is enough for any one to see there is something wrong with it, including the breeder.


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

i say return it to the breeder and let him deal with it and assess it. To be honest only posted in here because i dont like Rainwater :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Blazin said:


> i say return it to the breeder and let him deal with it and assess it. To be honest only posted in here because i dont like Rainwater :Na_Na_Na_Na:


 
Well that just about quaifies your input then


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

and the breeder did ask for it back.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Blazin said:


> i say return it to the breeder and let him deal with it and assess it. To be honest only posted in here because i dont like Rainwater :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Which makes you a immature silly little person 
Ill remember what kind of a person it is and so will everyone else. 
its pathetic!

The only reason the breeder would want it back is to hide the fact that in all they sold a leopard gecko which is showing neurological problems.
The reason it was not paid for is because of these problems.

What breeder in their right mind would give the uk's newest morph to some one and say "pay me later" utter rubbish is coming out of your mouth and i think you should refrain from posting in this thread before you say something you may regret!


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Blazin said:


> and the breeder did ask for it back.


The breeder in question did ask for it back when the problems started happening, this breeder also claimed on another forum that he's seen the circling motion and actions with he's adults but he still bred from them.


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

hes a nice guy and just being friendly and she took advantage of that. in prev posts its been said the problems appear and then go. if thats so then what makes u think he knew it had a problem?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Blazin said:


> and the breeder did ask for it back.


I dont see there is any point you posting here, you dont have the requiered experiance or knowledge, and you have publicly stated you dont like the OP so your views are somewhat biased.


----------



## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Please can we keep this thread clear of any personal insults, and any issues people may have with each other. I dont think anyone really wants this thread locked. Thanks


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Snakes r grreat said:


> Please can we keep this thread clear of any personal insults, and any issues people may have with each other. I dont think anyone really wants this thread locked. Thanks


Thanks for that Jack  I'm being good


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

im sorry. required experience and knowledge? what determines that then?

get off your high horse mate.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Blazin said:


> hes a nice guy and just being friendly and she took advantage of that. in prev posts its been said the problems appear and then go. if thats so then what makes u think he knew it had a problem?


well let me think 
The breeder posted on another forum that there had been circling motion in the adults!!!!!!!

Im not saying the breeder is not a nice person ive met them for crying out loud. 
No one is saying the breeder did it intentionally at all what we are trying to get to is if it is caused by neurological problems within the morph or another reason


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Blazin said:


> First off. im Dan Keating. nice to meet you.
> shes had more dead geckos then live ones! The breeder probably hasnt seen this thread yet. ALso im sure the breeder wouldnt of sold her if he knew she had problems and i think it should be returned to him to make a fully assessment of the situation and also to compare behaviour of other enigmas.
> 
> i was just emplying she didnt pay for it. dont make assumptions.


If she returned it to the breeder it would be culled or sold on.

Not making assumptions goes both ways.

A by product of taking in ill or disabled animals is that they can DIE, Rainwater is a conscientous and caring keeper.

The breeder in question is less than perfect, so how about, you stop answering on his/her behalf and direct them to the thread, which I am sure  they haven't already seen.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Blazin said:


> im sorry. required experience and knowledge? what determines that then?
> 
> get off your high horse mate.


Blazing this thread is not about you or anything personal for rainwater or the breeder concerned it is about the welfare of leopard geckos 
I'm sure thats what you really care about and if you dont then you need to revaluate what your doing


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Blazin said:


> im sorry. required experience and knowledge? what determines that then?
> 
> get off your high horse mate.


 
The quality of your input determins that. 

I have no horse and I am not your mate.

As Jack has pointed out, this thread was started to investigate possible issues with enigmas, NOT to discuss how nice one person is and how nasty another is.

Best the thread is stuck to rather than sidetracking anywhere, fact is rainwaters enigma leo has problems. thats what the thread is about


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> If she returned it to the breeder it would be culled or sold on.
> 
> Not making assumptions goes both ways.
> 
> ...


 
less then perfect? what? yes making assumptions does go both ways lol.


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Blazin said:


> less then perfect? what? yes making assumptions does go both ways lol.


How about, if you want to discuss it properly you can pm me and we can speak there, this thread is not for you to try and stick a knife in over a personal vendetta.


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Blazin said:


> well 1. if the gecko does havea problem then ofcourse the breeder would be concerned and wouldnt breed it.
> 2. not like she payed for it.
> Shes not grown attached to it, shes slowly killing it. it needs to be handed back to the breeder who has a lot more experience and could properly asses the situation.


Dan,

That is a totally disgusting post, and in making it you have not done yourself or the breeder, which I presume you are sticking up for any favors whatsoever. 

I have sat and read through this thread this afternoon, and other related ones, and even though I don't know Rainwater personally, and only heard and saw the name for the first time today, my assessment of the person would be that of a VERY caring one without doubt. 

Perhaps instead of showing yourself up here, you might put your time to better use, and inform the breeder of this thread, as it is obvious that he is aware of the problem with Ice, and perhaps he would like the chance of investigating further, as it appears this gecko has been born with the neurological problem, and if the breeder has bred this one, and continues to breed from the same source, Ice could be joined by further siblings.

One has to wonder when reading some of the members posts here. Some are driven by agendas, that's for sure, but what, I have to question. I guess as this thread continues more will become obvious. 

The caring, the uncaring and the indifferent will all emerge. Of that I'm fairly certain, and that in it's self is good to be aware of anyway.

Maureen.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Ice? its not Ice that is affected and Ice is a blizard that freeky geeky owns hun.

This is an enigma called Narrobi i think :?


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Totally off topic but good to see you oline again Maureen - have missed ya


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> Dan,
> 
> That is a totally disgusting post, and in making it you have not done yourself or the breeder, which I presume you are sticking up for any favors whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Nice post Maureen  

The main target here is to get to the bottom of this problem be it neurological or something else. It does how ever seem to be Neurological which is causing the problems, some say its light sensitivity but if it was then it wouldn't affect all types of enigma's and only the albino form. Another point was made it could be a possible ear infection but in so many ? surely not. How ever all i'm trying to do is make sure no more gecko's are introduced to this world with problems such as this.


----------



## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

just a general thought about light sensitivity.... 
albinos, yes are more sensitive to light, but even normals are sensitive to light to some degree, as leos are nocturnal - but we see no outward abnormal behaviour, as there sight is just 'not as good' as diurnal animals.

Maybe usually you dont notice it in normals and do in albinos, but with the enigma gene, it becomes noticable in normals and extremely apparent in albinos.......??!!


----------



## elle1331 (Mar 19, 2007)

light sensitivity would not account for the other problems which some people are having with theirs, and aside from the fact that jennas still carried on the behaviour after the lights were out then that would rubbish the light sensitivity theory wouldn't it?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Right, getting back on topic, those videos....

interesting. 

I take it they are all from the same time, with just different lighting levels.

The last one the light seems very blue and bright, any one know if its uv or not?

for sure the videos tend to show that under some conditions, the leo, although a little unsure on his/her feet, shows no signs of circle walking.

The demonstration clearly indicates that there is a link of some shape or form in this leo between the light levels and its behavour.

I wonder if others who have affected leos have seen this?

Jenna, how is yours in the dark compared to the light? do you see this level of change?

If it is just a sensitivity to light, how could it manifest itself as what appears to be uncontrolable movement. Or is that circle walking the leos attempts at escaping the possible pain or discomfort it feels from the light?

In other words, is it a voluntary reaction or involuntary? thats key to the whole issue i would think?


----------



## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

elle1331 said:


> light sensitivity would not account for the other problems which some people are having with theirs, and aside from the fact that jennas still carried on the behaviour after the lights were out then that would rubbish the light sensitivity theory wouldn't it?


At this stage i think its inappropriate to 'rubbish' a theory. IF it is neurological which it seems it may be, it MAY be triggered by light therefore the theory is relevent to explain why not just albino enigmas are affected.

As for it occurring in the dark, leos may be affected to different degrees, some needing a trigger others not.


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Leos are not nocturnal, they are crepsular.


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Faith said:


> Ice? its not Ice that is affected and Ice is a blizard that freeky geeky owns hun.
> 
> This is an enigma called Narrobi i think :?



Whoops. :whistling2::blush:. Your right there Faith. Sorry Rainwater. :blush: My only excuse is the fact that I have allowed that beautiful picture of Ice to stay at the fore front of my mind. I am also troubled by a lot of what I am reading here. 

I am old, I know, but if breedings of the type described here is all in the name of progress, and designer animals, then I'm glad I'm almost off the scene as I find it too despicable to accept to be honest. I recall breeders cross breeding years back and having problems of all sorts, and I also remember well, certain breeders collecting up entire litters and having them euthanased, so as not to inflict such problems further on the poor animals and potentially caring owners that would have been in for heartbreak, such as is occurring on this thread.With this situation here, and the ball morphs and corns, and God only knows what else now, some of todays breeders have a lot to answer for, if they don't go out of their ways to avoid this sad, and horrifying type of breeding from continuing. 

As for the videos, it is obvious that it is NOT just a light sensitive problem. The light just makes things worse. Even in the dark video it is obvious to me that there is a neurological problem. That is no normal reaction for a gecko, and anyone that thinks it is, is without doubt not as experienced as they like to believe they are. Light sensitive is the poorest excuse I have ever heard of to try to cover up what is a very serious problem, as I'm sure they are already aware of, but if not, then sadly it will take more suffering for them to realize.

Maureen.


----------



## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

u get what i mean....


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> Leos are not nocturnal, they are crepsular.


For those that dont have a level english lol it means during twilight hours.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> Whoops. :whistling2::blush:. Your right there Faith. Sorry Rainwater. :blush: My only excuse is the fact that I have allowed that beautiful picture of Ice to stay at the fore front of my mind. I am also troubled by a lot of what I am reading here.
> 
> I am old, I know, but if breedings of the type described here is all in the name of progress, and designer animals, then I'm glad I'm almost off the scene as I find it too despicable to accept to be honest. I recall breeders cross breeding years back and having problems of all sorts, and I also remember well, certain breeders collecting up entire litters and having them euthanased, so as not to inflict such problems further on the poor animals and potentially caring owners that would have been in for heartbreak, such as is occurring on this thread.With this situation here, and the ball morphs and corns, and God only knows what else now, some of todays breeders have a lot to answer for, if they don't go out of their ways to avoid this sad, and horrifying type of breeding from continuing.
> 
> ...


Thats why I love my normals


----------



## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> As for the videos, it is obvious that it is NOT just a light sensitive problem. The light just makes things worse.


Thats what I mean...


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Faith said:


> For those that dont have a level english lol it means during twilight hours.


Sorry, crepsular means that an animal is active in the few hours before sunrise and after sunset, so leopard geckos would be subject to varying degree's of light in the wild.

The only reason I can say that it is not purely light sensitivity as leopard geckos I have bred personally, and from speaking to other breeders and wholesalers when I bred and kept leos is that when a leo is sensitive to light, it will seek the darkest corner it can find, put its head as low down as possible and close its eyes tightly shut.

I am not saying that light levels couldn't be a catalyst for the circling problem in some enigmas, but to me it is not the sole cause of the problem, can anyone here say honestly that in the first video, with low lighting, that is a healthy and stable leopard gecko?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

I tend to agree.

Light may have some part to play, in some way, but I belive it to be a deeper issue.

However, light has been put forward as a possible reason or cause, so we do have to include it in our discussions and research, if only to rule it out.


----------



## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

no not at all. I was just trying to suggest why normal eyed enigmas may be affected as well as red eyed, IF it has something to do with light, AS WELL as a neurological factor. It is a fact, i think, that normal leos are sensitive to low light levels! - referring to young gun


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Young_Gun said:


> The only reason I can say that it is not purely light sensitivity as leopard geckos I have bred personally, and from speaking to other breeders and wholesalers when I bred and kept leos is that when a leo is sensitive to light, it will seek the darkest corner it can find, put its head as low down as possible and close its eyes tightly shut.


Exactly the behavour my young aptors showed last year, was a bugger trying to check for red eyes !


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

RedGex said:


> Thats what I mean...


I have to agree with just watching the vids even in very low light the leo does not have "normal" leopard gecko behaviour. 
In the bright light its extreamly bad and if that is what is to be expected as they grow then that video alone should be enough to stop people breeding them. 
However, if its because the light is triggering a reaction in the brain like it does, with example menigitus,this also can have a extreamly bad effect in the brain.

If the neruological reactions are made worse by high levels of light and then they are still there from what i can see at even low levels of light there is no way we can be looking at light sensitivity.
If at a natural light level to their habitat they are reacting differently then there is something wrong.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Exactly the behavour my young aptors showed last year, was a bugger trying to check for red eyes !


snap we thought we had some very nice red eyes but alas we couldnt take a pic at all lol.


----------



## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

completely agree, but still seems to be some connection, think its a lot more complex, but there may be different 'types' of the problem in different leos... if sight is affected in the light, there is clearly something not right, but why should that not mean there sight is affected in the dark also?
I appreciate im being vague, just trying to add some ideas...

and im not saying its just sight thats the problem....


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

RedGex said:


> completely agree, but still seems to be some connection, think its a lot more complex, but there may be different 'types' of the problem in different leos... if sight is affected in the light, there is clearly something not right, but why should that not mean there sight is affected in the dark also?
> I appreciate im being vague, just trying to add some ideas...
> 
> and im not saying its just sight thats the problem....


after talking to Rainwater her leo has this problem in the dark and the light
it trys to hunt and fails with a compleat miss at least 4 times then it walks away from the prey, presuming because it is frustrated and can not catch it ?
which is why i believe it is being hand fed.

I dont think there are different types although its possible it could just be that there are different symptoms? 
The worse affected ones showing more symptoms and the least affected ones showing less ?


----------



## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

thankyou, thats what i mean but put better. not used to speed typing opinions... 
i have a gecko blind in one eye, takes a few attempts to get food even if im holding it for him. You cant judge distance with one eye, maybe not relevent but thought id mention it


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

well, 2 samples is not enough, but maybe light enhances the issue in some way?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Im sure i have read that lights can affet neurological issues with humans but it has also been used as treatment for some conditions.
It also quite obvious that if it is a neurological condition that it has been made worse by the effects of different lighting conditions.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> Im sure i have read that lights can affet neurological issues with humans but it has also been used as treatment for some conditions.
> It also quite obvious that if it is a neurological condition that it has been made worse by the effects of different lighting conditions.


Can you tell me what? The only thing i can think of is optic neuritis. And thats when the myeline sheath of the optic nerve becomes inflammed.

I'm starting to get very frustrted with the obvious blinkered, biggoted way some people are determined on pinning the Neurologic tag on this issue.

I am not saying it isn't or it is, i'm not commiting myslef either way, but it so blooming infurating when some are hell bent on turning any comment, or situation into what they want to believe, and until we can ALL have an open mind to this issue, it is absolutly pointless trying to get to the bottom of this.

Mel & Kieth replied again:
"That thread over there is almost painful to read. I'm so pleased that we rarely have that kind of bullying here on this forum. I would also like to mention that it is completely unfair (for Diablo) to say that one breeder in particular holds back new morphs for generations to "prove" that they have no genetic problems unless he has personal proof of that. That breeder sent us a completely blind gecko and a gecko that he had bred previous to shipping and then tried to hide the fact. That seems unethical to me. Pig tails have been a known genetic problem from inbreeding in another "big" breeder's lines. So to say that Enigma breeders are trying to hide problems is unfair. So, off of that tangent...

I can only speak for OUR Enigmas:
The one in the video only circles in bright light and has no issues in the dark so I would have to believe that the alleged neurological issues are triggered by sensitivity to light". 

I don't feel i can carry on commenting on this post as its truely frustrating and there seems to be no conjecture.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Can you tell me what? The only thing i can think of is optic neuritis. And thats when the myeline sheath of the optic nerve becomes inflammed.
> 
> I'm starting to get very frustrted with the obvious blinkered, biggoted way some people are determined on pinning the Neurologic tag on this issue.
> 
> ...


*Definition*

Porphyria is a disorder caused by a change in the amount of porphyrins (nitrogen-containing substances) found in the blood. This can cause abdominal pain, skin lesions light sensitivity, anemina, and neurological changes. 
That is just one of the many things humans can get with light sensitivity


PS geckos 
i dont thing this thread is blinkered at all to be honest it has both sides of the debate it would only be blinkered if it was a one sided view
None of us are ruling out that it MAY not be neurological but unless someone can point us in the direction of another disorder which shows the same symptoms as the fore mentioned leos then i dont see what else we have to go on. 

Have you ever seen a rainwater albinos reaction to lights at different levels? or any of the albino strains that react the same way the seen enigmas do?

Personally i havent but would welcome videos of ones that have. 

It has been proven that with a resessive gene in corn snakes you can get "star gazers" they have been trying for years to out breed this trait the same as in the spider balls. 

It would be very unfortunate if the leopard geckos were to be hit with the same kind of traits but did people honsetly think we as leo keepers are above having such a thing happen with our pets? Personally i dont think they did if its not with the enigma its just a matter of time until it is with somethign else.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> *Definition*
> 
> Porphyria is a disorder caused by a change in the amount of porphyrins (nitrogen-containing substances) found in the blood. This can cause abdominal pain, skin lesions light sensitivity, anemina, and neurological changes.


Thank you. And i was the first person to mention it may well be hormonal or linked to hormones, especially if there is a higher % of females affected.

I'm not claiming to be a know it all but i studied Anatomy & Physiology when i trained as a fitness instructor and more in depth when i completed my Sports therapist courses, i find it fascinating and love to know how everyhting is linked and how it works.



Faith said:


> PS geckos
> Have you ever seen a rainwater albinos reaction to lights at different levels? or any of the albino strains that react the same way the seen enigmas do?
> 
> Personally i havent but would welcome videos of ones that have.


This is what i asked for in previous posts


----------



## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

QUOTE:
It would be very unfortunate if the leopard geckos were to be hit with the same kind of traits but did people honsetly think we as leo keepers are above having such a thing happen with our pets? Personally i dont think they did if its not with the enigma its just a matter of time until it is with somethign else.


There are already a lot of lines affected  I studied reptile medicine from the age of 18 now 33 and run our sanctuary side because yes there problems do occur more than you'd expect.

There are also a lot of cases with beardies and everyone jumps on the adeno virus route.
I don't advertise this fact as i believe all the cases we deal with deserve a quite life and the life expectancy is short.

But i'm happy to help with data anyone may need.
paula


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Molly75 said:


> QUOTE:
> It would be very unfortunate if the leopard geckos were to be hit with the same kind of traits but did people honsetly think we as leo keepers are above having such a thing happen with our pets? Personally i dont think they did if its not with the enigma its just a matter of time until it is with somethign else.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Excellent Molly - Thank you very much, this will be a great help


----------



## Molly75 (Jul 10, 2006)

Your very welcome 
We sadly have lots of info  most is kept private after all it takes a good person to come to me and ask me to take an animal in wihich would be easier to cull and I work on trust alone 

paula xx


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

I am part of another forum in the states and started reading this. I find this discussion very interesting because the mods on our forum would have locked it after the first 3-4 pages (freedom of speech my :censor lol. Anyway, I decided to throw in my thoughts, possibly stir the pot a little more...



Diablo said:


> The main target here is to get to the bottom of this problem be it neurological or something else. It does how ever seem to be Neurological which is causing the problems, some say its light sensitivity but if it was then it wouldn't affect all types of enigma's and only the albino form. Another point was made it could be a possible ear infection but in so many ? surely not. How ever all i'm trying to do is make sure no more gecko's are introduced to this world with problems such as this.


Very interesting Diablo. Very interesting because you seem to be talking about all this "research" you are doing. However, this "research" you are doing is nothing more than spreading hear-say. This leads to rumors. Rumors are not good for anyone.

Actual research would require you to do some tests, not say what others have already said. Actual research would mean (in this case) you actually own (at least) a 1.1 pair of Enigmas, outcrossing the male, and inbreeding females to see the frequency of neurological problems in each individual pairing. Actual research would give you numbers and figures to publish, rather than "...well he said she said..." kinds of ideas. 

As from my own experiences, I have not seen any sort of neurological problem out of Enigma pairings. The "exagerated light sensitivity" is just that, sensitivity to light. This can be seen with ANY ALBINO ANIMAL(not just leopard geckos). Every albino leopard gecko I own (Trempers, Bells, and Rainwaters, including Tremper and Bell Enigmas) are sensitive to light. Thats just the way things are.

I think the neurological problems that were seen in the first 2 seasons after the official release of the Enigma were due to MASSIVE amounts of inbreeding. This, unfortunately was done to maximize profit. However, now that the enigma is being outcrossed to different morphs, the genes are becoming stronger, and this crazy is being bred out lol. I love these smilies.

Moses


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> As from my own experiences, I have not seen any sort of neurological problem out of Enigma pairings. The "exagerated light sensitivity" is just that, sensitivity to light. This can be seen with ANY ALBINO ANIMAL(not just leopard geckos). Every albino leopard gecko I own (Trempers, Bells, and Rainwaters, including Tremper and Bell Enigmas) are sensitive to light. Thats just the way things are.


I am sorry, but there is no way that circle walking is normal in leos, not even albinos that are sensitive to light.

If you think the behavour shown in those videos is noraml and yours all do it, then you have a big problem on your hands.

It would seem light has some effect in this matter, to different extents, but I have never seen a healthy albino behave that way.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

*Voluntary code??*

Well, we go to work for a day and there are 10 more pages to read!!!

Interesting as the discussion is becoming I don't think any of us are qualified sufficiently to determine the issue - all we can do is report on what we observe.

I did like JP's theory regarding the potential for different genes to produce certain amino acids when combined that may affect behaviour as this seems to me at least to be plausible since it is not a defect found in all Enigma's.

We have started a video diary of our 'affected' female and will continue this on a regular basis and include any offspring that hatch from the male.

Video of enigma1903082 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Video of enigma190308 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

As you will see from the above our female is somewhat unsteady on her feet and seems to spread her legs to compensate and keep balance. She did not circle whilst being filmed but did a little when the camera was off - typical!!

Reading, I think, Melanie's post I would agree that 'good' offspring should be kept for observation for 8 months and only put up for sale if none of a clutch exhibit any abnormal behaviour.

In fact I would go as far as to suggest that those of us that are breeding Enigma's 'sign-up' to a voluntary code of conduct to this effect and offer a money back guarantee should any Enigma's sold begin to exhibit such signs. Such information could be included in the form of Certificates which we produce for our animals in any event for animals that we have bred. 

This would hopefully reassure buyers of our genuine intent to only sell healthy animals. If all were to agree on this then perhaps a Sticky could be put up with all of us who agree to adhere to such a code?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.....


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> I think the neurological problems that were seen in the first 2 seasons after the official release of the Enigma were due to MASSIVE amounts of inbreeding. This, unfortunately was done to maximize profit. However, now that the enigma is being outcrossed to different morphs, the genes are becoming stronger, and this crazy is being bred out lol. I love these smilies.


So i take it that everyone who purchased these first two generations were advised of the problem, and that these two generations have never been allowed to breed?

If not, then maybe the current lines are clear, but there still 'unclear' animals out there


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> In fact I would go as far as to suggest that those of us that are breeding Enigma's 'sign-up' to a voluntary code of conduct to this effect and offer a money back guarantee should any Enigma's sold begin to exhibit such signs. Such information could be included in the form of Certificates which we produce for our animals in any event for animals that we have bred.
> 
> This would hopefully reassure buyers of our genuine intent to only sell healthy animals. If all were to agree on this then perhaps a Sticky could be put up with all of us who agree to adhere to such a code?
> 
> Your thoughts would be appreciated.....


 
Thanks for that Nick, as Mel pointed out with regards to an open ended return policy is that there will be less conscientious people ot there who may very well abuse it, although i'm not saying it isn't an idea that hasn't crossed our minds


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Thanks for that Nick, as Mel pointed out with regards to an open ended return policy is that there will be less conscientious people ot there who may very well abuse it, although i'm not saying it isn't an idea that has crossed our minds


Sarah

The thought had crossed our minds too! It would need to be tied down somewhat and maybe we might need to go as far as to ask them to sign something that said if they did exhibit these problems they would agree not to breed them - if we were unsure then we can refuse to sell...

We would of course want to see the animal and have it returned before any reimbursement was given. We could also offer alternative LEo's to equivalent value if available..

I think what I'm getting at is that there will be healthy Enigma's produced and there needs to be a means to sell them that gives the buyer the confidence to buy.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

purejurrasic said:


> I am sorry, but there is no way that circle walking is normal in leos, not even albinos that are sensitive to light.
> 
> If you think the behavour shown in those videos is noraml and yours all do it, then you have a big problem on your hands.
> 
> It would seem light has some effect in this matter, to different extents, but I have never seen a healthy albino behave that way.


When did I say mine circle walk? When did I say the videos were normal behavior? Stop putting words in my mouth. All I said was my albino animals are sensitive to light (closing of eyes and sort of panic-y when exposed to bright light), and from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE there is nothing wrong with them (them meaning Enigmas).

As for your second reply, again, I never said anything about cross breeding 1st and 2nd post release generations, althought it must have happened, and there are, as you say, "unclear animals" out there.

Again, from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I have only bought 2nd and 3rd post release generation Enigmas, which I have only outcrossed. I don't want to risk neurological disorders. The enigmas that I have bought and produced show no signs of neurological problems. 

Moses


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Sarah
> 
> The thought had crossed our minds too! It would need to be tied down somewhat and maybe we might need to go as far as to ask them to sign something that said if they did exhibit these problems they would agree not to breed them - if we were unsure then we can refuse to sell...
> 
> ...


 
By allowing people to see that there are responsible Enigma owners out there who are willing to work together to help to end this issue is a step in the right direction


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Sarah
> 
> The thought had crossed our minds too! It would need to be tied down somewhat and maybe we might need to go as far as to ask them to sign something that said if they did exhibit these problems they would agree not to breed them - if we were unsure then we can refuse to sell...
> 
> ...


 
we agree a code of conduct is a good idea and we also feel 8 months is a nice time to sell however we must all ensure this code is not abused and so it must be agreed by all enigma owners and one code must apply to all of us, this needs to be really thought out by us all but we agree this will not only give the buyer the added confidence it will also act as a guideline for breeders and protect the morph further: victory:


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Waht about UK breeders who don't use this site?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> we agree a code of conduct is a good idea and we also feel 8 months is a nice time to sell however we must all ensure this code is not abused and so it must be agreed by all enigma owners and one code must apply to all of us, this needs to be really thought out by us all but we agree this will not only give the buyer the added confidence it will also act as a guideline for breeders and protect the morph further: victory:


Just a thought not as a breeder but as a buyer 
would asking the possible buyers benefit the the decission of the code of conduct? Considering it would be the public that would be buying them?


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

melanie said:


> we agree a code of conduct is a good idea and we also feel 8 months is a nice time to sell however we must all ensure this code is not abused and so it must be agreed by all enigma owners and one code must apply to all of us, this needs to be really thought out by us all but we agree this will not only give the buyer the added confidence it will also act as a guideline for breeders and protect the morph further: victory:


I personally would love to see a code of conduct formed. However, I personally don't think it will happen. In fact a reptile society was attempted in the US (so I was told) and it failed. Horribly. I really would love to see it happen, and I would participate if it was formed.

Moses


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Personally if the breeders conducted it themselfs, and most took part then other breeders would be shot down if they didnt comply knowing the risks they MAY be taking.

just from a UK point of view


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> Just a thought not as a breeder but as a buyer
> would asking the possible buyers benefit the the decission of the code of conduct? Considering it would be the public that would be buying them?


 
not sure what you mean here but there is a typo in that statment i meant that the code would need to be agreed by all enigma breeders and (not owners) and as a breeders it would be regarded as responsible way of protecting the buyer, the breeder and the morph.

pleased to see you moses and welcome to the forum, it's nice to have input from all breeders of leopard geckos where ever they come from: victory: extra knowledge and experiences benefits geckos and breeders and owners so welcome to rfuk


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

From the point of view of someone who does not own and does not actually plan to own an eclipse at any time i think a code of conduct for enigma breeders would be marvellous.

This would also enable to public to decipher between those breeders who are in it for the passion of the hobby and those for the cash - surely any serious breeder who cares about thier animals' welfare would be delighted to join such a scheme?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> When did I say mine circle walk? When did I say the videos were normal behavior? Stop putting words in my mouth. All I said was my albino animals are sensitive to light (closing of eyes and sort of panic-y when exposed to bright light), and from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE there is nothing wrong with them (them meaning Enigmas).
> 
> As for your second reply, again, I never said anything about cross breeding 1st and 2nd post release generations, althought it must have happened, and there are, as you say, "unclear animals" out there.
> 
> ...


Whilst I belive the threads going in the right direction with responsible breeders looking at what can be done to protect stocks, I think I should respond to that guy.

You said



> As from my own experiences, I have not seen any sort of neurological problem out of Enigma pairings. The "exagerated light sensitivity" is just that, sensitivity to light. This can be seen with ANY ALBINO ANIMAL(not just leopard geckos). Every albino leopard gecko I own (Trempers, Bells, and Rainwaters, including Tremper and Bell Enigmas) are sensitive to light. Thats just the way things are.


I read this to mean that you think the 'exagerated light sensitivity' is just being sensitive to light and all your albinos are senstive. This then follows that the examples of exagerated sensitivity being discussed and features in the videos are examples of behavour of your leos.

I have not put words in your mouth, i have simply read the words you wrote. 

Anyway, I think this thread has gon beyond discussing _if _there may be a possible problem, and we (meaning the responsible breeders in the UK) are already openly talking about how they can best lilit any possible effects, even those who dont own affected animals are only to willing to be included.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

Faith said:


> Personally if the breeders conducted it themselfs, and most took part then other breeders would be shot down if they didnt comply knowing the risks they MAY be taking.
> 
> just from a UK point of view


Thats exactly how I thought it would work, but when the idea was brought to our forum, it was shot down rather rapidly. Seems people can't agree on anything. Sounds like any form of government eh? But I personally love the idea.

Moses


----------



## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

so basically the enigma gene is F.C.U.K.D?


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Anyway, I think this thread has gon beyond discussing _if _there may be a possible problem, and we (meaning the responsible breeders in the UK) are already openly talking about how they can best lilit any possible effects, even those who dont own affected animals are only to willing to be included.


 
How many Enigma's have you got Tony?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

With regard to a code of conduct, I dont belive it will be possible to enforce all breeders, but its more than possible for 'founder members' to operate to rules that ensure no affected enigmas are released, then shout as loud as possible that this 'guild of breeders' is in opperation , and make recomendations regarding enigmas.

As word spreads, one would hope more and more breeders would join up.

Just a thought.

Anyway, I think its time I stood back for a while, I dont breed enigams, nor have a wish to, I have my own favs ! and there are others on here far more experianced in enigmas than me, I hope I have maybe given a few ideas to be looked at.

Good luck to all.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

purejurrasic said:


> Whilst I belive the threads going in the right direction with responsible breeders looking at what can be done to protect stocks, I think I should respond to that guy.
> 
> You said
> 
> ...


Typo on my part, sorry. I just meant that albinos in general are sensitive to light. And for myself, there is nothing different between a "normal" albino animal and an albino enigma...as far as I'm concerned enigmas are normal. Again, this is from my experiences, nobody elses.

Moses


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

PSGeckos said:


> How many Enigma's have you got Tony?


lol, having said I was gona keep quite, I am right back !!

I have no enigmas at all, have never claimed to have any, and to be honest, dont think I would want any, but thats my own choice.

I know I dont have any, but genetics are the sme the world over and since no one knows what the problem is, I hope you agree not having any does not exclude my thoughts and make them unworthy.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

that_guy said:


> Thats exactly how I thought it would work, but when the idea was brought to our forum, it was shot down rather rapidly. Seems people can't agree on anything. Sounds like any form of government eh? But I personally love the idea.
> 
> Moses


Thankfull this forum is not policed in the same way, our mods are very fair and will allow most things to be discussed unless people get personal or they start swearing and being abusive or the thread actually breaks the law.

Moses just a question, 
in you above posts you say that all your albinos are light sensitive 
Does that mean all your albinos for example circle in the same way enigmas do?
Or do they react differently to your enigma?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> Typo on my part, sorry. I just meant that albinos in general are sensitive to light. And for myself, there is nothing different between a "normal" albino animal and an albino enigma...as far as I'm concerned enigmas are normal. Again, this is from my experiences, nobody elses.
> 
> Moses


No need to be sorry, its an emotive discussion, and sometimes words are typed in haste.

However, its good to see you here on RFUK sharing your experiances with us.

Thanks and welcome !


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Faith said:


> Thankfull this forum is not policed in the same way, our mods are very fair and will allow most things to be discussed unless people get personal or they start swearing and being abusive or the thread actually breaks the law.
> 
> Moses just a question,
> in you above posts you say that all your albinos are light sensitive
> ...


Faith, I think we 3 have crossed posted, moses has just clarified that


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> I have no enigmas at all, have never claimed to have any, and to be honest, dont think I would want any, but thats my own choice.
> 
> I hope you agree not having any does not exclude my thoughts and make them unworthy.


No, not at all, i just thought you had got some for some reason.


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I think the more pertinent question than 'how many enigmas do you own' is 'What experiences with animals with neuroligical or genetic defects, or animals extremely sensitive to light do you have'.

Owning an animal does not make your opinion or knowledge greater than anyone elses, whether they own the animal in question or not, I agree that without owning one you will be going off other peoples findings, but I would rather have someone who has 1 years experience with animal nuerology, than someone who has 5 years (for exmaple only before someone mentions the timescale) experience with Enigmas.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

PSGeckos said:


> No, not at all, i just thought you had got some for some reason.


 
Nah, thats kewl, no one knows for sure what i have, apart from my lil sister who does all the hard work !! 

Thanks don !


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Faith, I think we 3 have crossed posted, moses has just clarified that


oh sorry if he did im tired and my brain hurts from thinking about what ifs all day lol


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> I think the more pertinent question than 'how many enigmas do you own' is 'What experiences with animals with neuroligical or genetic defects, or animals extremely sensitive to light do you have'.
> 
> Owning an animal does not make your opinion or knowledge greater than anyone elses, whether they own the animal in question or not, I agree that without owning one you will be going off other peoples findings, but I would rather have someone who has 1 years experience with animal nuerology, than someone who has 5 years (for exmaple only before someone mentions the timescale) experience with Enigmas.


 
Totally agree - so really all we can take away from 35 pages is speculation? :whistling2:


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

purejurrasic said:


> lol, having said I was gona keep quite, I am right back !!
> 
> I have no enigmas at all, have never claimed to have any, and to be honest, dont think I would want any, but thats my own choice.
> 
> I know I dont have any, but genetics are the sme the world over and since no one knows what the problem is, I hope you agree not having any does not exclude my thoughts and make them unworthy.


Actually....
Not having any personal experience with the problem does make your thoughts unworthy. If you havn't seen the problem first-hand, how can you make any informed opinions. Sure you can see all the videos you want, but it won't make you an expert.
Kind of like, I can watch instructional videos on playing paintball untill I'm blue in the face, but it won't mean I'm any better until I experience the real thing.


----------



## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

that_guy said:


> Actually....
> Not having any personal experience with the problem does make your thoughts unworthy. If you havn't seen the problem first-hand, how can you make any informed opinions. Sure you can see all the videos you want, but it won't make you an expert.
> Kind of like, I can watch instructional videos on playing paintball untill I'm blue in the face, but it won't mean I'm any better until I experience the real thing.


Actually.... i dont think you can call someones thoughts unworthy. They might not be able to give 1st hand advice and experience, but that does not stop them from talking to others and gathering their own thoughts and theories that they can and are more than welcome to share.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

that_guy said:


> Actually....
> Not having any personal experience with the problem does make your thoughts unworthy. If you havn't seen the problem first-hand, how can you make any informed opinions. Sure you can see all the videos you want, but it won't make you an expert.
> Kind of like, I can watch instructional videos on playing paintball untill I'm blue in the face, but it won't mean I'm any better until I experience the real thing.


Im sorry i cant agree with that.
people were disagreeing that it could be a neurological problem or that it could be a genetic problem, 
If this is the case then we have imput as leopard gecko owners and breeders.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Agreed - PJ has offered a tonne of valuable advice to people so many times. Just because he doesn't own a particular morph with a certain trait does not make his opinion less "owrthy" than those who do


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> Actually....
> Not having any personal experience with the problem does make your thoughts unworthy. If you havn't seen the problem first-hand, how can you make any informed opinions. Sure you can see all the videos you want, but it won't make you an expert.
> Kind of like, I can watch instructional videos on playing paintball untill I'm blue in the face, but it won't mean I'm any better until I experience the real thing.


Well my friend, i knew if i gave you enough rope....


I know quite a bit about genetics and thier effects, but i guess that matters not. I dont know about the a bomb, but i know it would kill me !

But, lets say your right, i havent seen this effect first hand so my thoughts are worthless.

Suprise, suprise, you also state you have not seen this, so your thoughts are also worthless.

If your replies are typical of the american forums , then no wonder they are locked !

No worries Jack, I have taken the bait from the hook, not about to get caught tho !!


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Faith said:


> Im sorry i cant agree with that.
> people were disagreeing that it could be a neurological problem or that it could be a genetic problem,
> If this is the case then we have imput as leopard gecko owners and breeders.


 
Again i will repeat we haven't said that it isn't a Neuro problem, we are just trying to put ourpoint across that he could be other things, even showing a video that clearly shows that the particular gecko was effected by light it was almost rubbished.

To be honest the title " Neurological problems in Enigmas..." has preempted this whole discussion, are we going to type another 36 pages agreeing to disagree??? being reactive and not proactive???


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Again i will repeat we haven't said that it isn't a Neuro problem, we are just trying to put ourpoint across that he could be other things, even showing a video that clearly shows that the particular gecko was effected by light it was almost rubbished.
> 
> To be honest the title " Neurological prblems in Enigmas..." has preempted this whole discussion, are we going to type another 36 pages agreeing to disagree???


It was effected by light, you are quite right, but in the same videos as you posted, look at the first one with the low light, does that look like a healthy gecko at all to you mate?

I do agree though, enough speculation has been done, what is needed now is controlled and unbiased testing of the morph in question to be done, but then, that raises a whole new dispute doesn't it, who that owns an enigma, could provide an honest and totally unbiased testing/report?


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> It was effected by light, you are quite right, but in the same videos as you posted, look at the first one with the low light, does that look like a healthy gecko at all to you mate?
> 
> I do agree though, enough speculation has been done, what is needed now is controlled and unbiased testing of the morph in question to be done, but then, that raises a whole new dispute doesn't it, who that owns an enigma, could provide an honest and totally unbiased testing/report?


 
Well there's 3 breeders on here willing to do that.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

Snakes r grreat said:


> Actually.... i dont think you can call someones thoughts unworthy. They might not be able to give 1st hand advice and experience, but that does not stop them from talking to others and gathering their own thoughts and theories that they can and are more than welcome to share.


How can you make you own INFORMED thoughts and theories if you have no evidence to back it up. The evidence you bring to the table is nothing new, and you will just be restating things that have already been said. If all you are going to bring up is stuff that can be found on any given google search don't bother, you are wasting your time. Its already been done, use your time more productivly to find something new.

Moses


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

No, pete (or sarah) they were not rubbished, as far as i can tell

Yes light had anan effect, go back and read what I said.

Even if the light issue is the only issue and not a trigger for something, that behavour is not normal. I thought we had already arrived at the fact something was not right within the enigma morph.


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Well there's 3 breeders on here willing to do that.


But how would people know that an unbiased testing had been carried out?

A breeder with Enigmas, surely would want a positive outcome from any testing undertaken, so could surely be biased from the start, just as on the other hand, someone who thinks there is a neurological problem with the morph would want that outcome, so could also surely be biased from the start?


----------



## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

that_guy said:


> How can you make you own INFORMED thoughts and theories if you have no evidence to back it up. The evidence you bring to the table is nothing new, and you will just be restating things that have already been said. If all you are going to bring up is stuff that can be found on any given google search don't bother, you are wasting your time. Its already been done, use your time more productivly to find something new.
> 
> Moses


On this forum, we do not rubbish peoples input, or suggest they have no right to post just because they have no first hand experience on the matter.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

purejurrasic said:


> Well my friend, i knew if i gave you enough rope....
> 
> 
> I know quite a bit about genetics and thier effects, but i guess that matters not. I dont know about the a bomb, but i know it would kill me !
> ...


How would my thoughts be worthless? I have seen how the trait can be bred out of the lines. Isn't that what this is all about. There is a problem with the morph...ok, fix it. I have. Out of the 30 some odd offspring that have come out of my enigmas, I have 0 neurological problems. The lack of evidence speaks volumes my friend

Moses


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

hi everyone

thanks for all your replies to the thread i can see some great things happening in the future will all our enthusiasm. however im a bit shakey after some of the comments ive read so i think im going to take time out from rfuk, once again. im going to carry on taking pics and vids of nairobi and get all her stats typed up so everyone can take a deeper look. my vet and also another one have also offered to hand me their notes that are on file for her.

thanks so much everyone

Jenna xx


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> But how would people know that an unbiased testing had been carried out?
> 
> A breeder with Enigmas, surely would want a positive outcome from any testing undertaken, so could surely be biased from the start, just as on the other hand, someone who thinks there is a neurological problem with the morph would want that outcome, so could also surely be biased from the start?


How would we go about this then, what would you recommend?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> hi everyone
> 
> thanks for all your replies to the thread i can see some great things happening in the future will all our enthusiasm. however im a bit shakey after some of the comments ive read so i think im going to take time out from rfuk, once again. im going to carry on taking pics and vids of nairobi and get all her stats typed up so everyone can take a deeper look. my vet and also another one have also offered to hand me their notes that are on file for her.
> 
> ...


Dont you dare Jen not because of some teenyboper dont let his one sided opiunion get you you sweetie your better than that  
You know your respected and loved here you cant leave us again  lol


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

Snakes r grreat said:


> On this forum, we do not rubbish peoples input, or suggest they have no right to post just because they have no first hand experience on the matter.


Well then a bunch of rubbish will continue to be passed around.

Moses


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> But how would people know that an unbiased testing had been carried out?
> 
> A breeder with Enigmas, surely would want a positive outcome from any testing undertaken, so could surely be biased from the start, just as on the other hand, someone who thinks there is a neurological problem with the morph would want that outcome, so could also surely be biased from the start?


THe point is missed yet again!! It is about responsibility and as a breeder and one who owns Enigma's it is our responsibility to get to the bottom of this and not propogate a problem if there is one.

No breeder in their right mind would want to get a reputation for breeding and selling unhealthy animals of any kind.

My personal view is that an agreed code of practice (albeit voluntary) with regard to Enigma's would hopefully sort the responsible breeders from the rest and assure buyers of the quality of what they might wish to buy. To take it a step further such a code could extend to only supplying healthy animals of any species or morph.

I will attempt to come up with an outline for a code for further discussion amongst breeders - those with and without Enigma's as all their views are worthy of consideration.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> How can you make you own INFORMED thoughts and theories if you have no evidence to back it up. The evidence you bring to the table is nothing new, and you will just be restating things that have already been said. If all you are going to bring up is stuff that can be found on any given google search don't bother, you are wasting your time. Its already been done, use your time more productivly to find something new.
> 
> Moses


 
oh dear, ok, well, your right, I dont have enigmas so I talk crap.

Not seen you put forward any suggestions, other than its normal, thats the way it is.

Now, since I dont own any, I would have thought that would be of interest as I have nothing to gain nor loose, I have no vested interest here, only the animals running round in circles being unable to feed.

But I accept your comments, i know nothing, should butt out and not have an interest, I know, lets leave it to you on the other side of the pond...

Oh, we did, you took a european morph and screwed it up.

Now the legal bit: the above sentance is not aimed at any one single person nor any group of people and was made by myself in no capacity whatsoever other than learning how to use a keyboard. If it causes offence to anyone, even if they dont know it does, or dont understand why it does, I offer my unreserved appology.


Now, I may get my first infraction ever for this but i have to say it.

your a twa*, you come on here and try to rubbish peoples free thought, whislt not bringing anything to the discussion. Almost makes me think your trying to hard to defend the morph. why could that be I wonder?


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> How would we go about this then, what would you recommend?


The only way I can think of is a independent study is undertaken by a lab etc, but then the twofold question that would make that, in my opinion, not work out is raised, who would pay for the study, and who would provide the animals to be tested?




that_guy said:


> Well then a bunch of rubbish will continue to be passed around.
> 
> Moses


Only rubbish I am seeing being passed around is coming from your keyboard my friend.

At least there are enigma owners/breeders, like Pete and Sarah, who are willing to listen to peoples views/opinions and are willing to try and work out a solution, unlike yourself, who can't seem to get past his own sense of righteous indignation.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> Well then a bunch of rubbish will continue to be passed around.
> 
> Moses


Qualify why its a bunch of rubbish, bring your expert thoughts into the public arena


----------



## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Please can we keep this thread on track. 

No one should feel they are unable to post, and no one should be suggesting that either. 

Thanks


----------



## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

im now slightly confused! i have read the whole thread and it is tiering, now there is undoubtably a neurological problem witht the enigma line, so what is the arguing about, it cant be disputed, there is proof in photos, videos and many people reporting same problem in the same morph, so what is the aguement about?
I personally believe breeders should be very resposible here and stop the sale of enigmas untill they have found away around or of and i use this word lightly 'curing' the problem. There is no point in flooding the market with braindmaged leos which over half will probably be bred from continuing this trait of the nerological disorder. i beleive all enigmas should be removed from sale of reprituble breeders until the problem is solved


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

The Uk breeders are discussing this already, and have my full support


----------



## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> The Uk breeders are discussing this already, and have my full support


discussing what, stopping selling untill it is sorted?

Tony can you tell me what they were argueing about up there?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Jake89 said:


> discussing what, stopping selling untill it is sorted?
> 
> Tony can you tell me what they were argueing about up there?


 UK breeders are already discussing how best to ensure that if there is a problem, it can be stopped from entering the broader public arena any further.

Yes, they have already indicated that not selling until much later in life is a viable option.

The main breeders who have replied in this thread are all actind with responsiblity, even tho they may not agree what the problem is.

The argument above was because I dont own an enigma and so dont know anything and am typing rubbish.


----------



## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> UK breeders are already discussing how best to ensure that if there is a problem, it can be stopped from entering the broader public arena any further.
> 
> Yes, they have already indicated that not selling until much later in life is a viable option.
> 
> ...


that is utter crap, every one has a veiw and a point, if tony wants to say something then it should be listened too, it may be of some use, just because some one doesnt own one doesnt mean they dont understand it or know info on it!


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Jake89 said:


> im now slightly confused! i have read the whole thread and it is tiering, now there is undoubtably a neurological problem witht the enigma line,


Wheres the proof it is Neurological?
Have you seen a diagnosis of an Enigma?

Can we call it an issue - rather than putting an undiagnosed label on it?


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> UK breeders are already discussing how best to ensure that if there is a problem, it can be stopped from entering the broader public arena any further.
> 
> Yes, they have already indicated that not selling until much later in life is a viable option.
> 
> ...


Cool 'rubbish' mate lol!!

To take Jakes point, if it was an inherent defect in *ALL* Enigma's then he is right they should not be sold at all. However, since the defects are not appearing in all Enigma's then test breeding must take place to determine whether the 'healthy' specimens are carriers of any defect.


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Wheres the proof it is Neurological?
> Have you seen a diagnosis of an Enigma?
> 
> Can we call it an issue - rather than putting an undiagnosed label on it?


Just out of interest, why would a neurological problem be so much worse than an eyesight one, or a vestibular one? Whatever this "problem" is, it causes the symptoms that Jenna (amongst others) has described, and that can clearly be seen in the video. Whether neurological in origin or not, it looks pretty crippling and uncureable for the leo involved, so what's the stigma against the word "neurological"?? Whilst I appreciate that it may turn out to be something of a misnomer, a couple of people on here seem pretty uptight and defensive whenever the "n word" is used...?


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

PSGeckos said:


> Wheres the proof it is Neurological?
> Have you seen a diagnosis of an Enigma?
> 
> Can we call it an issue - rather than putting an undiagnosed label on it?


I agree with this

its not been diagnosed as a nurological problem, so 'enigma issue' is maybe the best lable for it right now


----------



## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Wheres the proof it is Neurological?
> Have you seen a diagnosis of an Enigma?
> 
> Can we call it an issue - rather than putting an undiagnosed label on it?


 
If it reaction to light as most say then yes it is nervous reaction and therefore is a neurological problem, the brain is reacting bad to light strenghts, i have studied a similar thing in uni to do with sound and a breed of dog and how it reacts and this was also a neurological problem.

And yes it is an issue breeding Leos carrying this trait as it may be passed on t the young and enter the market. How would you like to buy a leo (quiet expensive) and alitle later on in life this starts happening, it could leed to death? who you going to blame the seller/breader or yourself?


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> I agree with this
> 
> its not been diagnosed as a nurological problem, so 'enigma issue' is maybe the best lable for it right now


 
Thank you Tony.

Hades - I am uptight about the N word, as it is not proven yet, if you had a lump and immediatly it was labelled as Cancer without diagnosis, i think you would be pretty upset? Sorry if its a crap analogy, but the best i can think of at this time of night!:blush:


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

I also agree with Sarah, its a problem for sure, whether its neurological or not (which in my own personal opinion I believe it is, but that is just that and nothing more, my own opinion) is yet to be proved.


----------



## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> I also agree with Sarah, its a problem for sure, whether its neurological or not (which in my own personal opinion I believe it is, but that is just that and nothing more, my own opinion) is yet to be proved.


ok i agrea with young gun, this problem wether neurological or not (i believe it is) is still a problem, so why sell leos hat are/maybe carrying the trait is beyoung me! surely the best thing is to stop all the breeding and sales of these work out what it is, how it transferd and how to solve it, then start back with the breeding and try and breed it out of them.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Jake89 said:


> ok i agrea with young gun, this problem wether neurological or not (i believe it is) is still a problem, so why sell leos hat are/maybe carrying the trait is beyoung me! surely the best thing is to stop all the breeding and sales of these work out what it is, how it transferd and how to solve it, then start back with the breeding and try and breed it out of them.


 
Thats exactly what the UK breeders are dicussing, but the thread went off topic with my cool rubbish !

Sorry guys ! :blush:


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

Jake89 said:


> surely the best thing is to stop all the breeding and sales of these work out what it is, how it transferd and how to solve it, then start back with the breeding and try and breed it out of them.


k, but how do you suggest we work out what it is, how its transferred and how to solve it if we stop breeding?


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Jake89 said:


> ok i agrea with young gun, this problem wether neurological or not (i believe it is) is still a problem, so why sell leos hat are/maybe carrying the trait is beyoung me! surely the best thing is to stop all the breeding and sales of these work out what it is, how it transferd and how to solve it, then start back with the breeding and try and breed it out of them.


But then you could say mate, on the other hand, you have a pair of these animals, you paid £900 for the pair lets say, and you had the intention of breeding them so you got your £900 back so you had two stunning looking pets that paid for their yearly maintenance in sales of babies, they are both healthy and neither show any signs of any of the conditions listed, would you not chuck the male in with the female?

I don't think you will get breeders stopping producing the enigma or the associated enigma based morphs, at best a list of rules and breeders could be drawn up and the time the animals are held for before being listed for sale could be set at a minimum of 6 months.


----------



## Jake89 (May 30, 2007)

purejurrasic said:


> Thats exactly what the UK breeders are dicussing, but the thread went off topic with my cool rubbish !
> 
> Sorry guys ! :blush:


 

ok good good


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Thank you Tony.
> 
> Hades - I am uptight about the N word, as it is not proven yet, if you had a lump and immediatly it was labelled as Cancer without diagnosis, i think you would be pretty upset? Sorry if its a crap analogy, but the best i can think of at this time of night!:blush:


My main reason for wanting to call it a "neurological" problem would be like Jake said. Even in darkness, the leo in the video (and Jenna's leo) appear to show "problems" - whether circling or just general unsteadiness. That it appears in the darkness suggests that it's not purely a light-sensitive issue (although that could be a component of it) - it could be a vestibular problem, or a purely brain-based one. When you consider that light seems to make it worse, it would appear that there are at least two factors at play:

1. lack of balance / co-ordination in darkness, almost certainly not caused by light;

2. intensification of symptoms in the light, suggesting a light-based component.

As light cannot affect the brain or vestibular system directly to cause the darkness problems, there must be some co-ordination of systems. Movement is too rapid to be hormonally controlled, so the co-ordination of e.g. eyes (light sensitivity) and e.g. brain / vestibular system (dark instability) is done nervously. Something involving the nerves is "neurology" - hence a neurological problem. The swelling of the optic nerve mentioned earlier in humans is technically neurological. A problem with the vestibular system / balance reflex that is exaggerated by input from the eyes (light) is also neurological, as it is a "problem" with the nerves that causes it.

Whenever two different components from two different sensory systems (as appears to be the case here, given the symptoms in darkness, and the exaggeration in the light) are co-ordinated nervously, it is a neurological issue. Balance is controlled by the brain (so is a neurological process). A lack of balance / co-ordination due to something inhibiting control of balance (as the videos appear to show) is neurological...

Apologies if that's hard to follow - as you said, it is late at night...

Andy


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

PSGeckos said:


> Again i will repeat we haven't said that it isn't a Neuro problem, we are just trying to put ourpoint across that he could be other things, even showing a video that clearly shows that the particular gecko was effected by light it was almost rubbished.
> 
> To be honest the title " Neurological problems in Enigmas..." has preempted this whole discussion, are we going to type another 36 pages agreeing to disagree??? being reactive and not proactive???


PSGeckos,

I feel I must reply to the above just in case you thought I was also rubbishing your video clips. That I promise you was not my intention either. I also am not wanting to be condescending, patronizing or sounding like I'm up my own rear, the latter being the description given about me by one of my very best and closest friends, before she got to know me well, I hasten to add LOL,so please don't take offense at my poor way of coming across on here at times. 

I did see a massive difference in the way the light affected the gecko, the poor little thing, but I also saw a very distressed gecko in the first video clip and would stake my entire 20 odd years of studying animal behavior, 90% of it being reptile body behavior on that poor gecko having a neurological problem. 

I don't own any Enigmas either, but have seen and dealt with many neurological problems over my many years in different species, and have had to accept that some breeders will do anything to try to get threads like this closed, and also the opposition into trouble if possible. I have not seen this here from you UK breeders, and have to say I admire and respect the breeders that are talking on here. Well done you guys and girls. You have cheered this old biddy up anyhow. :2thumb:

I hope you can all come up with a way to move forward, but it will be no easy task, but at least this is a step in the right direction. Good on you and on the other members, and the mods that are allowing this debate.I just hope that no members can be allowed to destroy all the effort put into this topic so far.

Good luck to you all for the future.

Maureen.


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> k, but how do you suggest we work out what it is, how its transferred and how to solve it if we stop breeding?


How about a large-scale study? Track down all the reports of Enigmas with that characteristic behaviour, trace them back to whoever bred them, find out who that breeder got their original stock from etc.

Then look at inheritance rates, and see if it would fit the pattern of inheritance for a recessive gene. Try and find cases of "Enigma Siblings" that show the behaviour (that would imply that it's associated with the Enigma line, not the Enigma gene itself).

Eventually you may be able to trace all of the cases back to a single breeder / origin. You would then have some idea of which Enigmas are likely to be affected / carry the problem.

My main concern at the minute would be that if it does turn out to be a recessive gene, it could leave the Enigma line (and indeed probably already has done so) and spread to the entire captive leo population. It would leave via "Enigma Siblings". At the minute, having the Enigma gene is a pretty good marker that the animal is at "above average risk" of having this problem, and care should be taken, e.g. keeping all Enigmas back for 6-8 months to check that there are no symptoms. If it is a gene and it left the Enigma line, there would be no marker, and cases would start popping up everywhere. Unless breeders of all morphs held all babies back for 6-8 months, the gene could spread unchecked. If it is a recessive gene (and a good way to prove that would be to find affected Enigma siblings, or to breed it out, or to find that cases match the inheritance pattern of a recessive gene) then it's important to catch it now whilst it's not widespread and is fairly well contained within the Enigma line.

Andy


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

HadesDragons said:


> My main reason for wanting to call it a "neurological" problem would be like Jake said. Even in darkness, the leo in the video (and Jenna's leo) appear to show "problems" - whether circling or just general unsteadiness. That it appears in the darkness suggests that it's not purely a light-sensitive issue (although that could be a component of it) - it could be a vestibular problem, or a purely brain-based one. When you consider that light seems to make it worse, it would appear that there are at least two factors at play:
> 
> 1. lack of balance / co-ordination in darkness, almost certainly not caused by light;
> 
> ...


 
Ok you win call in Neurological i'm too tired too argue/disagree.

Optic Neuritis - Actually the immune system attacks the myelin sheath which surround the nerve, hence the short circuiting in the nerves, so it is caused by the immundeficiency diseases, the immune system is actucally regualted by manu systems in the body.

Pete lost his sight when he was experiencing MS like symptoms, which yes i know is a Nerological problem, but he was never diagnosed with MS it was all put down to stress.

But hey, i digress....

neurological it is!


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Faith said:


> Dont you dare Jen not because of some teenyboper dont let his one sided opiunion get you you sweetie your better than that
> You know your respected and loved here you cant leave us again  lol


I agree with Faith here Jenna. Caring people like yourself are needed on forums like this one, and even though I don't know you, I like you, as you come across as very caring, and anyone that cares is a good person at heart.

Time for your friends to send you a 'hug' or two me thinks. It won't mean a lot from me but have one anyway. 'HUG'

Maureen.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

purejurrasic said:


> Qualify why its a bunch of rubbish, bring your expert thoughts into the public arena


OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING!!!
People breed enigma x engima, get retarted babies and wonder why. Its because the entire line came from one gecko and has been inbred. If you outcross enigmas to snows, raptors, blizzards, etc, you will start to notice the number of enigmas with neurological disorders will deminish. At least thats what I've noticed. I don't cross enigma x enigma. I ONLY outcross. I have had ZERO babies with neurological disorders. You can contribute it to coincidence if you want, but I'm going to continue doing what I do until I get a result that is unwanted.

Moses


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

One digression lol:

Has anyone's enigma ever fallen over in their hand as they've gone to pick him/her up?


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> I agree with Faith here Jenna. Caring people like yourself are needed on forums like this one, and even though I don't know you, I like you, as you come across as very caring, and anyone that cares is a good person at heart.
> 
> Time for your friends to send you a 'hug' or two me thinks. It won't mean a lot from me but have one anyway. 'HUG'
> 
> Maureen.


Aww Maureen that's such a sweet thing to say so thankyou so much! I think I;ve calmed down a bit now! And thanks for the hug hehe! 

And Faith...you're such a legend!


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

that_guy said:


> OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING!!!
> People breed enigma x engima, get retarted babies and wonder why. Its because the entire line came from one gecko and has been inbred. If you outcross enigmas to snows, raptors, blizzards, etc, you will start to notice the number of enigmas with neurological disorders will deminish. At least thats what I've noticed. I don't cross enigma x enigma. I ONLY outcross. I have had ZERO babies with neurological disorders. You can contribute it to coincidence if you want, but I'm going to continue doing what I do until I get a result that is unwanted.
> 
> Moses


What if it's a recessive gene causing it? Outcrossing would reduce its frequency in the Enigma line (and indeed, outcrossing would only work on recessive genes), but by outcrossing you allow the gene to leave the line (and hence it's convenient marker - the Enigma gecko) via siblings, and get into the wider gene pool. Then you have a much bigger problem on your hands, because you have lost the marker, so you don't know which geckos to take special precautions with...

Andy


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

that_guy said:


> OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING OUTCROSSING!!!
> People breed enigma x engima, get retarted babies and wonder why. Its because the entire line came from one gecko and has been inbred. If you outcross enigmas to snows, raptors, blizzards, etc, you will start to notice the number of enigmas with neurological disorders will deminish. At least thats what I've noticed. I don't cross enigma x enigma. I ONLY outcross. I have had ZERO babies with neurological disorders. You can contribute it to coincidence if you want, but I'm going to continue doing what I do until I get a result that is unwanted.
> 
> Moses


So now you do think there is (in your words a 'nurological' issue) that you have solved by outcrossing and hoping the issue gets left behind somewhere. 

in your first post you state:


> As from my own experiences, I have not seen any sort of neurological problem out of Enigma pairings.


in your last post you state:


> If you outcross enigmas to snows, raptors, blizzards, etc, you will start to notice the number of enigmas with neurological disorders will deminish. At least thats what I've noticed.


so, please, I have confirmed my experiances, can you confirm yours, which statement is true, have you seen or noticed these problems or not?


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

As far as leaving the "marker" or defective gene behind, well thats how all the breeders I know do it. But yes, the idea is if you bury it enough, it won't pop up again.
But I do plan to cross this seasons offspring back to an enigma to see how things are going.



purejurrasic said:


> so, please, I have confirmed my experiances, can you confirm yours, which statement is true, have you seen or noticed these problems or not?


I thought I would try and save myself some time and just thought everyone would figure out what I was talking about, but clearly I have to explain my story every time I make a post. If you don't know where I stand by now, then we are both wasting our time.

Moses


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

:lol2:

ok, I give up !

apart from one person who cant seem to make his mind up, there is a general agreement that something is wrong with some lines of enigmas.

The responsible breeders on here are talking about how best to limit that, and ensure any 'problems' are not passed on, thats great. 

Once that door is closed, then studies need to be made to try to find out what the issue is. There have been a number of good sugestions as to how this may be acheived.

I am now going to bow out of the discussion about IF there is a problem, but if I can assist the breeders in anyway, I am more than happy to do so, as they know they are doing the right thing.


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

that_guy said:


> As far as leaving the "marker" or defective gene behind, well thats how all the breeders I know do it. But yes, the idea is if you bury it enough, it won't pop up again.
> But I do plan to cross this seasons offspring back to an enigma to see how things are going.
> 
> Moses


 
Whilst it's all well and good doing that now, leaving a gene such as this to spread as hets through the captive gene pool is shortsighted and irresponsible.

Given that over the next few years there are likely to be a lot of Enigmas bred, that will produce a lot of Enigma siblings, and potentially a lot of carriers of the gene. I expect that Enigmas will be bred to other morphs more often than others, which will cause some non-Enigma lines to have the gene at a higher frequency than average. So now you would have a potential problem with many lines.

"Burying it deep" may have been an option when the problem was first realised, but there are so many Enigmas out there now that you may struggle to bury it to the point that it doesn't keep reappearing in other lines further along the road. Obviously this all assumes that it is a recessive gene that is found at a fairly high frequency within the Enigma line.

Any thoughts? 

I'd be very interested to see what happens if people started breeding Enigmas to Enigmas, and whether there was an increase in problems.

Andy


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> But how would people know that an unbiased testing had been carried out?
> 
> A breeder with Enigmas, surely would want a positive outcome from any testing undertaken, so could surely be biased from the start, just as on the other hand, someone who thinks there is a neurological problem with the morph would want that outcome, so could also surely be biased from the start?


 
I disagree that beacuse i THINK there is a neurological problem with enigmas that i would WANT that to be the outcome..

it is quite the opposite..

having suffered since i was 13 years old with a neuro problem i would not wish it on any animal just to prove what i pondered on or debated was in fact correct..

that would be very wrong of me indeed...


i dont think anyone here conjecting it may be neuroligical would actually want a positive outcome for a genetic neuro issue...

to want that would make us animal haters not animal lovers...

id perfer to be 100% wrong that it to be proven these animlas have s serious neuro defect!!!!!

and im sure the rest of the posters here questioning that fact feel exactly the same!!!!


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

HadesDragons said:


> Whilst it's all well and good doing that now, leaving a gene such as this to spread as hets through the captive gene pool is shortsighted and irresponsible.
> 
> Given that over the next few years there are likely to be a lot of Enigmas bred, that will produce a lot of Enigma siblings, and potentially a lot of carriers of the gene. I expect that Enigmas will be bred to other morphs more often than others, which will cause some non-Enigma lines to have the gene at a higher frequency than average. So now you would have a potential problem with many lines.
> 
> ...


 
this is very true and some excelletn points are made in your post... it is why the point earlier in the thread about enigma being a dominant colour morph is mute. 

the genetic key to the health issue does indeed look possibly recessive otherwise the sporadic instances of the possible neuro issue would be seen more widely.. but yes breeding would prove it i guess but is that possibly a worrying trial to run or maybe if sceintific requirements deamnd it ... it might have to be done to get to the bottom of it...


burying this is no longer an option

thank goodness


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

HadesDragons said:


> Whilst it's all well and good doing that now, leaving a gene such as this to spread as hets through the captive gene pool is shortsighted and irresponsible.
> 
> Given that over the next few years there are likely to be a lot of Enigmas bred, that will produce a lot of Enigma siblings, and potentially a lot of carriers of the gene. I expect that Enigmas will be bred to other morphs more often than others, which will cause some non-Enigma lines to have the gene at a higher frequency than average. So now you would have a potential problem with many lines.
> 
> ...


Andy- I havn't sold any of my enigma hatchlings yet, and don't plan to until I test them out like you said. By test I mean cross my my outcrossed hatchlings back to enigma parents. If what I did didn't work, well its back to the drawing board, but if it did...well that remains to be seen. 

And since some people seem to have a problem taking a hint:
I do understand that a problem does exist with the ORIGINAL enigma line. I have heard all the same stories you have, circle walking, sensitivity to light, etc. However, from my experience, just me, nobody else, I havn't had any problems from outcrossing my enigmas. So to sum things up, I believe there is a problem with the original line, but I have not encountered any problems with my personal line.


----------



## Jeremy Letkey (Mar 19, 2008)

I was taking my time reading through this thread. I have been putting my thoughts together and was going to join in the conversation. Instead, I will crawl back to my side of the pond. It appears to me that everyone here has already made up their minds. It appears to me that many have taken the "either you are with us or you are against us approach.

The freedom to decide what I will do with my animals is important to me. I believe that I am an ethical breeder. I want to understand the issues affecting some of the Enigmas and do what I can to only reproduce healthy animals. In order to understand what the problem is we do need to try to reproduce these animals. Study the ones that are currently available and determine exactly what the issue is and how to eliminate it.

While this forum does allow for intense conversation it does seem to be swayed or bullied to one opinion. These are only my humble thoughts and opinions from across the pond.




purejurrasic said:


> But I accept your comments, i know nothing, should butt out and not have an interest, I know, lets leave it to you on the other side of the pond...
> 
> Oh, we did, you took a european morph and screwed it up.


While I will continue to check on the progress of this thread, I will not be drawn into a debate. I have stated my views and many of you have stated yours. I can accept that, I hope that you can as well.

Respectfully, Jeremy Letkey


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

*An Apology to all Americans (bar one !)*



Jeremy Letkey said:


> I was taking my time reading through this thread. I have been putting my thoughts together and was going to join in the conversation. Instead, I will crawl back to my side of the pond. It appears to me that everyone here has already made up their minds. It appears to me that many have taken the "either you are with us or you are against us approach.


Welcome to RFUK

Yes its true we are passonate about our animals and sometimes things get heated. Its a testamant to this that this thread is so large in just 2 days, we do all have an input. 

The fundamentel issues to be addressed were 2 fold. 1. is there a problem, and 2 How can it be delt with.

Most of this thread is taken up with 'discussion over what the issue is and how it should be labled. The fact of if an issue exsists or not is pretty much agreed on. Here as well as the states.



> The freedom to decide what I will do with my animals is important to me. I believe that I am an ethical breeder. I want to understand the issues affecting some of the Enigmas and do what I can to only reproduce healthy animals. In order to understand what the problem is we do need to try to reproduce these animals. Study the ones that are currently available and determine exactly what the issue is and how to eliminate it.


And that is comendable, and exactly the course of action the UK breeders are taking (no not all the thread is a personal slagging match, there has been loads of good disscusion). 



> While this forum does allow for intense conversation it does seem to be swayed or bullied to one opinion. These are only my humble thoughts and opinions from across the pond.


As mentioned, the issue is about the exsistance of a problem, the answer can only yes or no. Whilst initially the problem was labeled, we have already agreeded that there is maybe not suffient data to be able to label it.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *purejurrasic*
> _But I accept your comments, i know nothing, should butt out and not have an interest, I know, lets leave it to you on the other side of the pond..._
> 
> _Oh, we did, you took a european morph and screwed it up._


This statement was made in haste and in reply to someone who knows absolutly nothing about me publicly telling me I knew nothing and therefore my comments were unwanted, un needed and , in his words, rubbish. The statement was directed at him and with hindsight should have been worded differently

I regret that such a sweeping statement was made, although the sentiment of it remains directed at the intended target.



> While I will continue to check on the progress of this thread, I will not be drawn into a debate. I have stated my views and many of you have stated yours. I can accept that, I hope that you can as well.
> 
> Respectfully, Jeremy Letkey


Its always good to have different viewpoints especially from those who state them clearly such as yourself.

Discussion about issue is one thing, when that discussion turns personal, it changes, and the end result is no result.

So, for the good of the leo world, I hope this thread now remains ontopic and the good work and ideas created by the breeders here is carried on.


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

ok, i think we all agree that until proper research is done, we are playing a guessing game. I have contacted another researcher in lizard behaviour and neurology, and they have this to say,

'Dear Katherine,

This sort of thing is a bit beyond my range of expertise, but the circling and lack of coordination could indeed be a vestibular or perhaps a cerebellar problem. Those that survive it and later improve might be learning to use their visual system and/or reticulospinal pathways to compensate for it. You wouldn't be able to localize the lesion without sacrificing some of the geckos that exhibit the symptoms, and also some that don't as controls, and examining the brains histologically as well as dissecting the inner ear, and of course you'd need to find someone in a research institution who could carry all that out. I don't know of a way to differentiate between an inner ear problem or one in the brain itself without an anatomical investigation, since of course damage at either location would produce the same symptoms. One thing one could try, however, would be to give a course of antibiotics when the symptoms appear. If it is caused by an inner ear infection - or much more likely middle ear infection - then you would expect the antibiotics to cure it. I think this is a very unlikely possibility, however. If they are prone to such infections, then one would expect a broader time range for the symptoms to appear, and it also would make them less desirable for people to buy.

This deficit might be linked to the new color traits and I think the way to approach that is to keep records on how many animals of the interbred stock versus how many in the wild exhibit the symptoms to look for correlation. Some genes, as I'm sure you know, can have pleiotropic effects, and this could certainly be such a situation here.

Hope this helps at least a little.

With my best wishes,
Ann'

Its up to the people who own the enigmas to get together and make progress on getting to the bottom of this. Other people can jump up and down and shout neurological all they like, but unless there is concrete proof, I will not be jumping on that band wagon. Multiple factors could contribute to this behaviour, which may lead to symptoms whihc look like a neurological issue. Again i will stress that i am not dismissing the opinion this may be genetic/neurological, but equally I will not accept any opinion until it is qualified by research. Note that she is outlining the need for a control (Dean Thorpe )


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Ok, I have had a response from someone I consider to be a very ethical and respectable breeder in the US and his response is quoted below:

_"Unfortunately there are neurological disorders in enigmas. Most breeders in the US sold them with out saying anything. Enigmas with the disorder and ones with out it will on average produce the same amount of enigmas with the complication. We have produced over 70 enigmas so far and judging by the symptoms and other peoples experiences with them it sounds like this is a variable pentinence trait. This means the disorder can not be out bred and it is part of the morph. It gets better as they age as there equilibrium most likely compensates for there in balance."_

This is an *OPINION* but one made from observation of a very large sample. It suggests to me that even by outcrossing the disorder will not be eradicated even if it lessens the incidences of the disorder.

The question is now what do we as ethical and responsible breeders do?


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

After reading that post i am some what shocked while you state this is only an opinion i find it hard to understand the intension behind it.
I have searched many usa breeders who would be working with these numbers and from what i can see all those that would have these amounts are all selling them still.

Are you therfore saying nick that as a ethical and respected breeder this breeder is no longer selling enigmas? what has he done with the 70 he has produced?

After a long think and with talking to other breeders of the morph both here and in the uk, mark and i have decided that we will apply a code of conduct.
we feel that the majority feel that although there were issues that these have been resolved through outcrossing, we have decided for now unless new evidence comes to light to monitor all enigma offspring and if no signs are shown as we exxpect none to show for these enigmas to be offered for sale at 8 months old and not before.
If however after sale a buyer is unhappy with his gecko we will do what we have always done with any of our morphs and offer to take the gecko back where a full refund will be made.

we feel that as breeders this is the most responsible and ethical thing to do.
: victory:


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

melanie said:


> After reading that post i am some what shocked while you state this is only an opinion i find it hard to understand the intension behind it.
> I have searched many usa breeders who would be working with these numbers and from what i can see all those that would have these amounts are all selling them still.
> 
> Are you therfore saying nick that as a ethical and respected breeder this breeder is no longer selling enigmas? what has he done with the 70 he has produced?
> ...


We're 110% with you Mel.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

purejurrasic said:


> This statement was made in haste and in reply to someone who knows absolutly nothing about me publicly telling me I knew nothing and therefore my comments were unwanted, un needed and , in his words, rubbish. The statement was directed at him and with hindsight should have been worded differently
> 
> I regret that such a sweeping statement was made, although the sentiment of it remains directed at the intended target.


I definately agree some things were said in haste last night, on my end especially. For that I am terribly sorry.

I will try to explain things a little more clearly this time.

I'm past acknowledging the fact there is a problem, its been documented enough. To document it even more is a waste of time for me and the readers of my documentation, kind of like beating a dead horse. I am now at the point of finding a solution for this well known problem.

Absolutely NONE of my animals circle walk for any reason. Not my albinos, not my enigmas, not my albino enigmas. I have never experienced any of the behaviors that are being discussed in the thread. All of my animals have been outcrossed to different morphs, and I believe that that is the solution to the neurological disorders. I have 2.6 engima outcrosses breeding as of right now. I have begun outcrossing my outcrosses, and have about 23 enigma outcross hatchlings so far, but I would like to reach 50 or so by the end of the season. All of these will be hold-backs, and test bred back to the original enigma outcrosses I bought (testing for neurological disorders). If what I have done works, and NONE, absolutely zero, of the offspring from those pairings show signs of neurological disorders, then great, I will let people know, and let the offspring go up for sale. If it doesn't, I am considering culling ALL of the offspring and going back to square one.

Moses


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

melanie said:


> After reading that post i am some what shocked while you state this is only an opinion i find it hard to understand the intension behind it.
> I have searched many usa breeders who would be working with these numbers and from what i can see all those that would have these amounts are all selling them still.
> 
> Are you therfore saying nick that as a ethical and respected breeder this breeder is no longer selling enigmas? what has he done with the 70 he has produced?
> ...


Melanie

I asked the breeder this question and their reply is as follows:

_"_
_The disorder will never be 100% accurately diagnosed due to how complex the inner ear and equilibrium are. Neurological problems in humans are understood by 100's of full staff University's working every day towards answers. Spider ball pythons have the same disorder I believe, all though it is not as obvious seeing that they don't walk but they are one of the most popular morphs in the ball python trade. The enigmas can live and function well with the disorder with the exception of severe cases. Keep in mind albinos are prone to eye problems and can be weak but we still breed them. As long as we take responsibility of owning and caring for geckos that may exhibit problems I don't see a real big problem with selling enigmas."_

The point is well made with reference to the Spider Royal morph (I don't have one for precisely this reason) which is still an extremely popular morph and one which provides ingredients for many other morphs and no-one is compelling breeders to cease breeding them!!

The caveat I personally would add to the last sentence is that to sell any we would have to be happy that they were healthy.

I am sure as time goes on people far more medically qualified than us will investigate the issue and provide a better understanding to the hobby.We will therefore, as we suggested in an earlier post, comply with a code of conduct as the best away forward.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Melanie
> 
> I asked the breeder this question and their reply is as follows:
> 
> ...


 
I spoke about spider morphs right at the VERY start of this thread actually and i have mentioned time and again the need to look into that....

so the word you used.. noone is not actually accurate nick..

but a code of conduct i think everyone should agree to allbeit not legally binding


----------



## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

if you read through lots of comments have been repeated throughout this thread sparkle. I think the repetition here is needed to put the remarks into context.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I spoke about spider morphs right at the VERY start of this thread actually and i have mentioned time and again the need to look into that....
> 
> so the word you used.. noone is not actually accurate nick..
> 
> but a code of conduct i think everyone should agree to allbeit not legally binding


he didnt claim noone made the comparison, he said noone is trying to stop the breeding of spiders.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

sparkle said:


> I spoke about spider morphs right at the VERY start of this thread actually and i have mentioned time and again the need to look into that....
> 
> so the word you used.. noone is not actually accurate nick..
> 
> but a code of conduct i think everyone should agree to allbeit not legally binding


Perhaps to use the expression 'no one' is rather sweeping. Certainly however, there does not appear to be the groundswell of concern against the Spider morph that is expressed in this thread for the Enigma morph. BTW I do not want to get into a debate about the Spider morph - I am merely using it as an example, perhaps one of many analogies that could be drawn.

I have updated our website to alert potential buyers to the problem and the voluntary code we will adhere to.

Agreed whilst such a code is not legally binding, the more people that are aware of it the better as this will ultimately encourage all breeders to adopt it for fear of being tarnished with the wrong brush - self regulation can work although as with most things in life it is open to abuse.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Melanie
> 
> I asked the breeder this question and their reply is as follows:
> 
> ...


Thats a very interesting post, i would be interested to hear whether the people who have so far shown there opinion as any enigma showing signs of any problem should be culled etc etc agree or disagree with what is stated above???


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> We're 110% with you Mel.


Yes, i tend to agree as well but not sure exactly how this would be put into place to avoid serious abuse of a responsible gesture.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Yes, i tend to agree as well but not sure exactly how this would be put into place to avoid serious abuse of a responsible gesture.


Ohhhhhh i know.... we're stuck between a rock and a very hard place then, while offering an open ended return policy it is suseptable to abuse and then you also have the added worry of the animals returning back you having to be quarentined, screened etc.

But then again if we keep them back for 8 months, then tell the buyer that you have no right to return the animal as we're satisfied it is old enough to have shown the issues and it has not that we're deemed as bad breeders!

AND just thought of another issue that could arrise, an 8 month old male could theoretically breed correct? So whats stopping people buying a male, putting it too as many as there females, then returning it?

Yes ok you can say we won't accept the animal back unless we see proof of the symptoms, but then that will open up another can of worms as to who will be _'qualified'_ to make that unbiased judgement!

:blowup:


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

That is a long read. I apologise now for any spelling mistakes, my cat won't budge from my lap.

Firstly, I've been shocked by some of the immaturity on this thread, I'm usually one to stand up for RFUK members but one or two instances have made me appalled that personal grievances interefere with the proper issue. That's all I'll say about that matter.

The issue at hand about whether to continue breeding enigmas when these problems occur is a difficult one. In the ideal world, proper research like mentioned with control specimens and enigmas of all generations and levels of problems are experimented with and scientifically labelled. That said, it's highly unlikely due to animal rights and unless the unfortunate ones were voluntarily given to science after they'd perished I don't see people allowing their pets to be experimented on. I fear that as a community on this forum we have very little power, only allowing room for our individual expectations and abilities. By that I mean Enigma owners and breeders (of which I am not a part) have their individual code of conducts etc etc as mentioned. That is to their disgression. 

Even if everyone on RFUK were to stop breeding their Enigmas it wouldn't solve much. Even though it's one of the biggest forums I've seen, it still is only a small percentage of the human race as a whole and I'm afraid our little stand would go unnoticed or ignored. At this point in time without further scientific study and experiments all we can do is our own little part. Whether this is stopping breeding with our own enigmas, or making sure they're as healthy as possible before selling with the knowledge that they may be returning to us sometime due to problems developing. 



that_guy said:


> All of these will be hold-backs, and test bred back to the original enigma outcrosses I bought (testing for neurological disorders). If what I have done works, and NONE, absolutely zero, of the offspring from those pairings show signs of neurological disorders, then great, I will let people know, and let the offspring go up for sale. If it doesn't, I am considering culling ALL of the offspring and going back to square one.
> Moses


Just a small point here Moses, firstly welcome to the forum, albeit a rough start. when you say culling all offspring, do you mean all those you've outbred as well or just those from the offspring/parent mix? I know that humanely it would be considered better to euthanise the babies if a problem is occuring but surely you'd only euthanise those who have severe problems? I must say the objective view you take when dealing with the genetics is of course your entitlement, but I was actually saddened at the objectiveness when talking about the babies you will produce. In a way (and not specifically you in this case since we all do it whenever we breed any morph of any species) we play god. Surely there's that sense of responsibility then that we've created a life and to look after that life as best we can because any suffering they undergo is our fault because they would not exist if it were not for our intervention. If I were to complete your actions I would only euthanise those who were so severely troubled that there was no hope of a recovery. and even then I'd be greatly saddened and it would take me a long time of lots of caring to see if there was the slightest chance of improvement. 

Now saying that, I'm not calling you heartless or anything like that, I'm just wishing to clarify whether you'd kill all babies or just those who were severely affected? I also have noted that you said you were CONSIDERING it. 

Back on topic now for my final thoughts. Since I am not an enigma owner (nor care to be one but that's because I don't find them particularly attractive and has nothing to do with possible problems) I can only give my objective two cents. I can understand and appreciate the point that if it is genetic, and if it is recessive, then by outcrossing it has the potential to rocket the number of leos with this sort of condition because there will be many hets floating around, and even if it doesn't show for a couple of generations, the possibility is always there and as it goes further down the line different owners may not know of the enigma descent and will therefore not know of any problems that may be associated with the morph. So IF a problem were to arise it could be labelled as the different things mentioned already and the true problem may never come to light. 

Saying that I can also appreciate how if it is dominant the outcrossing could help by lessening that impact. It's a very touchy subject, especially because it is such a new morph and only a small amount (relatively speaking) are circulating the globe. 

I found the theory behind this reminiscent of when I was in school so long ago lol. Our physics talking about feasibility of renewable energy ruled out using things like wind turbines and other things etc because you would need more than our landcapacity can offer so we don't use any. I always thought why not use a combination of them? Instead of relying solely on one type of energy power, why not use a combination of the lot? 

I was thinking the same throughout this thread. We're trying to narrow it down to one problem that the morph faces. Could it not be a combination of problems that have similar physical symptoms? Some could have ear problems, others have problems with their CNS etc. OR that they end up with the same problem but got there in different ways. By that I mean since they tend not to be from birth, perhaps many different circumstances from many different owners create the same problem. If it is a problem with that type of origin then it would be very hard to prevent. This would mean it isn't genetic, unless it's a genetic weakness to certain environmental or psychological stimuli. At the moment it could be a combination of all of the above. We just won't know. Unless every person who has an enigma (whether outcrossed or not) carries out a detailed post mortem when their little one perishes and posts their findings, I don't see how anything can be done at present to prevent such things from happening.

It has been suggested already that a public record be kept and I think this is a wonderful idea but would need as many enigma owners to participate as possible. This would mean more breedings of the morph but this would also add to the problem. It is a paradox.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Thats a very interesting post, i would be interested to hear whether the people who have so far shown there opinion as any enigma showing signs of any problem should be culled etc etc agree or disagree with what is stated above???


Ben

Culling apparently problematical animals is a very emotive issue. Does a behavioural issue mean for example that an animal is in pain - I suspect not. Euthenising animals just because they exhibit unusual behaviour I would not support. Euthenising animals because it is the most humane action to prevent further suffering I would.

Provided any affected animals can feed and shed properly then they should in my opinion be allowed to live a happy life but not bred. It would have to be an extreme case I think to warrant any form of culling.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

Kimmy173 said:


> Now saying that, I'm not calling you heartless or anything like that, I'm just wishing to clarify whether you'd kill all babies or just those who were severely affected? I also have noted that you said you were CONSIDERING it.


Absolutely right, I'm considering it. I guess I havn't really made up my mind on what to do yet. Its still another season away, guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
My reasons for considering culling all of the babies would be that they contain the genetics for the problem. If they still contain the genetics for the problem, then my entire project is pointless as I am trying to breed these problem genes out.
I would not want to sell anything less than a breeder quality animal, and anything less is not acceptable for my standards.
However, I am considering not culling them, because, well I have a LOT of money invested in this project and it would seem like a waste. Aside from the money aspect, I might be able to use the non-affected offspring for future projects, and possibly still trying to work the problem genetics out of the lines.

Moses


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

that_guy said:


> Absolutely right, I'm considering it. I guess I havn't really made up my mind on what to do yet. Its still another season away, guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
> My reasons for considering culling all of the babies would be that they contain the genetics for the problem. If they still contain the genetics for the problem, then my entire project is pointless as I am trying to breed these problem genes out.
> I would not want to sell anything less than a breeder quality animal, and anything less is not acceptable for my standards.
> However, I am considering not culling them, because, well I have a LOT of money invested in this project and it would seem like a waste. Aside from the money aspect, I might be able to use the non-affected offspring for future projects, and possibly still trying to work the problem genetics out of the lines.
> ...


thanks for the reply Moses.

So do you consider them pets as well? would you get attached to them or try to remain distant as you'd be selling them on? Sorry for being nosey, I'm just curious


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Ben
> 
> Culling apparently problematical animals is a very emotive issue. Does a behavioural issue mean for example that an animal is in pain - I suspect not. Euthenising animals just because they exhibit unusual behaviour I would not support. Euthenising animals because it is the most humane action to prevent further suffering I would.
> 
> Provided any affected animals can feed and shed properly then they should in my opinion be allowed to live a happy life but not bred. It would have to be an extreme case I think to warrant any form of culling.


Absolutely which is why at this moment in time i think talk of culling enigmas is completely out of the question as no one has proved there is neccesarily pain involved for the animal with any of these symptons.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Absolutely which is why at this moment in time i think talk of culling enigmas is completely out of the question as no one has proved there is neccesarily pain involved for the animal with any of these symptons.


I have to say that culling does not really mean to kill the gecko it means to remove it from a breeding program. 
Just so people are aware


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

Kimmy173 said:


> thanks for the reply Moses.
> 
> So do you consider them pets as well? would you get attached to them or try to remain distant as you'd be selling them on? Sorry for being nosey, I'm just curious


Well there are the select few that I am very attached to because of their personalities. My favorite is my little normal girl...well not little anymore, but she was my first leopard gecko that I bought a few years back. I wouldn't sell her for anything.

However, as horrible as it may sound, I try to remain as distant as possible. This is especially true with the ones I am test breeding right now. Not just for the fact that I might be selling them, but because I am dealing with this whole mess of trying to breed out problems. Even if just one of them showed up with the problem, that would mean that they could all carry this defect, and could all possibly be affected in some way. That would devistate me if grew too attached. So I figure I just won't allow that to happen.

Moses


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> I have to say that culling does not really mean to kill the gecko it means to remove it from a breeding program.
> Just so people are aware


*Culling* is the 'selection' (removing or killing) of surplus animals from an animal population. 

Therefore it can actually be either, so anyone stating they may "cull" enigmas from their collection could have meant either in actual fact. 

Although i believe it has been said at least a couple of times within the context of "killing" the animals.


----------



## that_guy (Mar 19, 2008)

benjrobinson said:


> Absolutely which is why at this moment in time i think talk of culling enigmas is completely out of the question as no one has proved there is neccesarily pain involved for the animal with any of these symptons.


But if they are affected to the point they can't eat, how will they survive? The way I look at it is you are just speeding up natural selection, and refining the genetics. Isn't that what this whole discussion is about?

Moses


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

that_guy said:


> But if they are affected to the point they can't eat, how will they survive? The way I look at it is you are just speeding up natural selection, and refining the genetics. Isn't that what this whole discussion is about?
> 
> Moses


Please read through my post more thoroughly moses, i said at this "point" with the information we have been given and the symptoms shown by any enigma we know of. 

None of this would warrant killing an animal.

If it got to a point where it couldn't eat then of course i would agree with that action. 

But if you breed 10,20,30 or more enigmas and decide you can't sell them because of certain problems then i dont think culling animals because they are not 100% perfect is right as long as they are not unhappy/suffering they should be allowed to live.


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> But if you breed 10,20,30 or more enigmas and decide you can't sell them because of certain problems then i dont think culling animals because they are not 100% perfect is right as long as they are not unhappy/suffering they should be allowed to live.


I feel the same that unless there is no hope that you should try you utmost to try and help the animal in question and give him/her the best life you can. Saying that, the enigmas spoken of that have the problems are usually in distress and emotionally depressed. I don't know what I would do if I were in that situation. I would just keep trying I think to try and make them as comfortable as possible but sometimes euthinasia is the best option. It's a tough decision for any owner to make.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Kimmy173 said:


> I feel the same that unless there is no hope that you should try you utmost to try and help the animal in question and give him/her the best life you can. Saying that, the enigmas spoken of that have the problems are usually in distress and emotionally depressed. I don't know what I would do if I were in that situation. I would just keep trying I think to try and make them as comfortable as possible but sometimes euthinasia is the best option. It's a tough decision for any owner to make.


Absolutely and one i have made in the past in the interest of the animal, but i have seen nothing in the enigmas that would warrant this decision being made. 

Im not saying it isnt happening or wont happen but it has certainly not been brought to my attention.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Personally i wouldnt agree with killing the enigmas that show the traits we are discussing.
Culling in the respect to remove them from breeding and keeping them as pets only then yes.

Unless a leo is so ill it can not be brought back from the brink of death then i agree the leo should be pts

We have dealt with many sick leos through the rescue and its not an easy task to get a 22g adult back to a decent weight let alone it not being able to walk correctly. 

Personally i would do what ever it took to keep it alive unless a vet had told me other wise, by this i mean if the vet said it would be in the best intrests to have it put to sleep.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Kimmy173 said:


> I feel the same that unless there is no hope that you should try you utmost to try and help the animal in question and give him/her the best life you can. Saying that, the enigmas spoken of that have the problems are usually in distress and emotionally depressed. I don't know what I would do if I were in that situation. I would just keep trying I think to try and make them as comfortable as possible but sometimes euthinasia is the best option. It's a tough decision for any owner to make.


I'd never euthanase my Nairobi unless she was literally dying and making 0% progress. For the moment she's sort of stable...and I think she does have a massive chance of getting better. I've had geckos euthanased before and its the most horrible feeling in the world, but its not about us is it...so it would always be an option if a gecko was in pain.

With the enigmas, as the symptoms and illnesses vary in strength and substance, euthanasia isn't the best option as soon as you spot the problems starting. Who knows...the enigmas are very young so maybe in a few years we'll see some changes or developments?


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> Personally i wouldnt agree with killing the enigmas that show the traits we are discussing.
> Culling in the respect to remove them from breeding and keeping them as pets only then yes.
> 
> Unless a leo is so ill it can not be brought back from the brink of death then i agree the leo should be pts
> ...


Yep, agee 100%. Thats the way people should look at it.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I'd never euthanase my Nairobi unless she was literally dying and making 0% progress. For the moment she's sort of stable...and I think she does have a massive chance of getting better. I've had geckos euthanased before and its the most horrible feeling in the world, but its not about us is it...so it would always be an option if a gecko was in pain.
> 
> With the enigmas, as the symptoms and illnesses vary in strength and substance, euthanasia isn't the best option as soon as you spot the problems starting. Who knows...the enigmas are very young so maybe in a few years we'll see some changes or developments?


Rainwater i think that is the best thing to do, it sounds like your doing everything in your power to keep yours going strong so i have every confidence you will turn things around. 

I do believe they can improve from these conditions, so keep up the good work.


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I'd never euthanase my Nairobi unless she was literally dying and making 0% progress. For the moment she's sort of stable...and I think she does have a massive chance of getting better. I've had geckos euthanased before and its the most horrible feeling in the world, but its not about us is it...so it would always be an option if a gecko was in pain.
> 
> With the enigmas, as the symptoms and illnesses vary in strength and substance, euthanasia isn't the best option as soon as you spot the problems starting. Who knows...the enigmas are very young so maybe in a few years we'll see some changes or developments?


I agree, plus people have said that they can "grow out" of this behaviour so I think it shouldn't be an immediate 'they've got symptoms we'll have to destroy them' type thing like with foot and mouth for example. I think with tender loving care even the most severe case could live a happy life


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

I really feel the need to post this 
There is another thread on geckofroums.net regarding the enigma discussion on rfuk 
It seems that one or 2 people like to copy and paste Diablo's replies, the thing is they are his own personal opinion not the opinion of anyone else. 

In the same sence i would like to know why it is after he has explained his own opinion that people still feel the need to c&p things from 15 pages ago. 
We have got past this and telling tales to those is the USA is not how we work.
You all have the right to feel outraged at him if you wish, but remember this is not going to get anyone anywhere, its just going to turn personal and that is not what we are after. 

If your going to say something about how annoyed you are at him then fair enough but people have already done this about a quarter of the way through the thread. 
There is no point dragging the discussion backwards at all. 

I personally thought the explanations given by Diablo were enough and that he had explained himself and his thoughts, which by the way he didnt have to do. 

I will say for those enigma breeders that have already steped forward for the cop i have a lot of respect for, i hope that by holding them back will prove our thoughts wrong, honestly i do. 

People dont like others that are willing to go against the grain and thats fine, but this was a disscussion that turned in to a debate and has now given UK breeders some of the knowledge they required to make a personal choice for their own enigmas.

He has never said that he has facts or scientific proof that this is a neurological problem he has however always given HIS OPINION if that be right or wrong it makes no difference.

He has also said he is making it his mission for as many people as possible to know about some of the problems in the enigmas, this would be the most responsible thing of all to do, as psgeckos said what about the breeders that dont use the forums?

So do we all not have that responsibility 
Personally yes we have been telling the breeders that we know to come and read the thread some have and some said they already know about it.

Which i can only see as a good thing. If there is going to be a COP in place for the enigma breedings then is it not a good thing the more breeders that know the better?

If everyone wants to work towards the same goal then i personally think we need to forget about any personal opinions we have about each other and start working on the same side!


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> I really feel the need to post this
> There is another thread on geckofroums.net regarding the enigma discussion on rfuk
> It seems that one or 2 people like to copy and paste Diablo's replies, the thing is they are his own personaly opinion not the opinion of anyone else.
> 
> ...


I personally have no problem with any of Diablo's comments, even if i dont agree 100% with every one of them. The fact is he is doing it with good intentions, i feel alot of people are very up tight about this situation, and alot are looking at it as if we need to make decisions now. Can enigmas be sold .... yes or no? are they safe? etc etc. 

We just need to take a step back, take some time to look into things, i am not at all worried about anything that is said and even as an enigma owner and breeder who will aim to sell plenty of enigmas, i am happy to help diablo warn people of the SITUATION. (note not neccesarily a definate problem). This is because any healthy enigmas i know i will not have a problem selling and any unhealthy enigmas (if any are found, which i am reasonably confident they wont be) will not be offered for sale anyway. 

Thanks,

Ben


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

but isn't the copying and pastingthing why this got started in the first place? a lot of information was taken from other sites and forums and used as methods of persuasion. I'm not saying this is right, in fact I think now that we've all settled down from the hot debate earlier we're looking clearer, but if someone wants to have another one on another forum then that's their lack of entertainment in their lives. Leave them to it I say, as long as they don't try to bring it back to this thread and start the argument again.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> I personally have no problem with any of Diablo's comments, even if i dont agree 100% with every one of them. The fact is he is doing it with good intentions, i feel alot of people are very up tight about this situation, and alot are looking at it as if we need to make decisions now. Can enigmas be sold .... yes or no? are they safe? etc etc.
> 
> We just need to take a step back, take some time to look into things, i am not at all worried about anything that is said and even as an enigma owner and breeder who will aim to sell plenty of enigmas, i am happy to help diablo warn people of the SITUATION. (note not neccesarily a definate problem). This is because any healthy enigmas i know i will not have a problem selling and any unhealthy enigmas (if any are found, which i am reasonably confident they wont be) will not be offered for sale anyway.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point Ben, 
If there is nothing wrong with the offspring then why is there going to be a problem selling them?
There wont be ok so they may not get those sales as soon as they wanted but that is also up to the indivdual breeder, no matter how much people stamp their feet and shout from the roof tops about not selling them it is 100% down to them. 

I'm not asking anyone to agree with him that would be unbelievable  lol 
But all im trying to say is personally i back him 100% in telling the world so to speak IF it is neruological or genetic, even if its not and it is found to be no problem with the morph then i bet he holds his hands up and says his thoughts and opinions may have been wrong.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Kimmy173 said:


> but isn't the copying and pastingthing why this got started in the first place? a lot of information was taken from other sites and forums and used as methods of persuasion. I'm not saying this is right, in fact I think now that we've all settled down from the hot debate earlier we're looking clearer, but if someone wants to have another one on another forum then that's their lack of entertainment in their lives. Leave them to it I say, as long as they don't try to bring it back to this thread and start the argument again.


In a sence kimmy yes it was, but our opinions were not just based on info over the net. They are also based on our own thoughts and understanding of the way the morph works as well as hour long talks with Rainwater about her enigma (anyone that knows her knows she will talk ya ear off lol)


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Rainwater i think that is the best thing to do, it sounds like your doing everything in your power to keep yours going strong so i have every confidence you will turn things around.
> 
> I do believe they can improve from these conditions, so keep up the good work.


Thanks Ben! I really hope so...I always see improvements in her everyday but then something odd crops up - we can only wait and see



Kimmy173 said:


> I agree, plus people have said that they can "grow out" of this behaviour so I think it shouldn't be an immediate 'they've got symptoms we'll have to destroy them' type thing like with foot and mouth for example. I think with tender loving care even the most severe case could live a happy life


Well I don't know whether they can or even will grow out of it, the enigma is a relatively young morph and compare that to their life span - we have no idea what the future holds or how these illnesses will or could progress. You're right though...its not like they're diseased!


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> In a sence kimmy yes it was, but our opinions were not just based on info over the net. They are also based on our own thoughts and understanding of the way the morph works as well as hour long talks with Rainwater about her enigma (anyone that knows her knows she will talk ya ear off lol)


LMAO phone whore as well as a post whore...can't deny it lol! But yes, a lot of the talks I've had with Diablo he's formed opinions on...plus the whole copying and pasting thing there really isn't that much available to copy and paste...unles Diablo has been yapping his mouth off


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> LMAO phone whore as well as a post whore...can't deny it lol! But yes, a lot of the talks I've had with Diablo he's formed opinions on...plus the whole copying and pasting thing there really isn't that much available to copy and paste...unles Diablo has been yapping his mouth off


Oh no its only selective posts hun ill pm you the link have a read and tell me its not turning personal over there.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Do I recognise one of the usernames on there or what?

It is getting personal...extremely selective


----------



## Kimmy173 (Aug 2, 2007)

do you have to be a member to see the forum? if not can you pm me the site as well? I'm just curious to see what's been said.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Kimmy173 said:


> do you have to be a member to see the forum? if not can you pm me the site as well? I'm just curious to see what's been said.


Nope anyone can read it hun ill pm you the link now


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Well...like 2 days later and look at what's happened!


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

I actually copied and pasted but i see no problem in copying and pasting what was said and was using it as reference now if paul takes offence by me doing that then i cannot understand why?? after all like you said he stands by what he said so what is the problem.

I have given my opinion the same as others have given theres i don't think it has got personal


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

sorry mel but i dont see how taking the thread back X amount of pages helps at all.
I know your annoyed at the way he words things but thats betwene you and him not people in the USA. 

"After reading the thread on here before the new info we added to it, all uk breeders had read that although their were intially reported problems in a few enigmas in the early years of the morph that it was now *decided by you all that you felt that this was too nothing serious and you all were not duely overconcerned *and after looking at so many of your'e pictures of the new enigma offspring it seems that all of you are happy with this morph still."

Just a question mel as i think you may have missed it on the other forum 

If it has been decided by the USA breeders that there is nothing to worry about then why it is not possible that they were wrong?


It reads as if its ok because they decided it was
so why is it not ok for Diablos posts to read that its not ok because he decided it isnt.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Faith said:


> sorry mel but i dont see how taking the thread back X amount of pages helps at all.
> I know your annoyed at the way he words things but thats betwene you and him not people in the USA.
> 
> "After reading the thread on here before the new info we added to it, all uk breeders had read that although their were intially reported problems in a few enigmas in the early years of the morph that it was now *decided by you all that you felt that this was too nothing serious and you all were not duely overconcerned *and after looking at so many of your'e pictures of the new enigma offspring it seems that all of you are happy with this morph still."
> ...


OK lets quit the personality issues here, it is a free world and provided we are not abusing or slandering then we are all entitled to an opinion.

What it boils down to is this:

I suspect that few of us are sufficiently qualified to determine what the problem is. We can only observe and learn from what others have observed. What seems clear to us is that whilst this is not an issue exclusive to Enigma's (consider reported issues with the Spider Ball morph) it has high incidences in the Enigma morph and appears to occur in some offspring sired by apparently healthy parents.

Therefore, we along with a couple of other Enigma breeders in the UK (so far) have agreed to adhere to a voluntary code of conduct that means we will not attempt to sell any Enigma that appears to have any of these behavioural problems and will only sell healthy animals once they are 8 months old. Furthermore, we will offer a refund policy for those animals that exhibit such traits after the point of sale.

We have also alerted readers of our website to the issue and our commitment to the code of conduct. Hopefully this will go some way to appeasing any potential buyers of our Enigma's.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Im glad that the breeders have done this nick and as ive said before i whole heartedly hope there is nothing wrong with any of the off spring anyone creates.
For me to wish that on anyone would be plain evil which i am not. 

Maybe i was wrong to make the statement i did but the question still needs answering.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> We have also alerted readers of our website to the issue and our commitment to the code of conduct. Hopefully this will go some way to appeasing any potential buyers of our Enigma's.


Just saw what you wrote and it's great that you're setting a good example in this tricky and unpredictable situation


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

i do not even own leos... and i feel very strongly that a code of conduct is paramount..

wel done on the people setting the example i feel you have oushed the breeders who did not want this initially into agreeing...


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

sparkle said:


> i do not even own leos... and i feel very strongly that a code of conduct is paramount..
> 
> wel done on the people setting the example i feel you have oushed the breeders who did not want this initially into agreeing...


exactly it might act as encouragement...hopefully!


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Faith

You are right the question does need answering but I fear that few (if any of us) on here have the expertise to do so. The issue has been rightly highlighted and breeders of Enigma's have responded in an ethical and responsible way.

One of the 'non-scientific' things we *can do* as breeders is test breeding through outcrossing since the problem is not occurring in ALL Enigma's. Hopefully this will lead to healthy lines of Enigma's being produced - again this will need breeder co-operation to ensure that lines are not bred to each other too often.

Rainwater - thank you for your comments and good luck with your Enigma.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

*It reads as if its ok because they decided it was
so why is it not ok for Diablos posts to read that its not ok because he decided it isnt.*

basically i came to the conclusion tht after all the work the usa breeders ahad done with the morph and the amount of time put into the breeding and the amount of enigmas produced as they are so far ahead with them than us i felt that if they felt there was no real problem then that was good enough for me.
They are all working now with 3/4 generations enigmas and producing all these differnt crosses, the usa is huge compared to us and the forum there is mainly a leopard gecko forum where some of the top breeders in the world communicate therefore i felt they had personal hands on experience and lots of it.
however diablos posts are based on his opinion and not facts as you have stated.

i am sorry he has taken this to be personal however if he stands by what he says that i don't know why it is wrong, i haven't altered or change any of the text.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> *It reads as if its ok because they decided it was*
> *so why is it not ok for Diablos posts to read that its not ok because he decided it isnt.*
> 
> basically i came to the conclusion tht after all the work the usa breeders ahad done with the morph and the amount of time put into the breeding and the amount of enigmas produced as they are so far ahead with them than us i felt that if they felt there was no real problem then that was good enough for me.
> ...


So basically you trusted the words of a few usa breeders, meaning you believed that there were no defects in the morph because they said so.

If ive read that rightly then the case would be that if they said the grass was blue it would be ?

Mel its human nature to question things no matter who tells you whats right or wrong i personally believe that you have to decied for yourself. 
If that means being wrong then so be it, but if that also means kicking up a stink and getting things noticed then thats the way it has to be.

As nick has said above 
"The issue has been rightly highlighted and breeders of Enigma's have responded in an ethical and responsible way."

So all in all im glad Diablo had the courage to post his opinions on the matter after all if he didnt and no one said anything then people could possiblly be selling affected animals in the future with out even knowing the cause of the problems.

Which IF it turns out to be a problem then thats nothing but a good thing. 
If it turns out that we are wrong thinking what we do then we will hold our hands up and say so.


----------



## Jeremy Letkey (Mar 19, 2008)

Faith said:


> If ive read that rightly then the case would be that if they said the grass was blue it would be ?


Faith, we do have Kentucky blue grass over here. lol :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I would just like it if everyone would keep an open mind. Be respectful of others opinions. Feel free to discuss your views but do not expect everyone to see eye to eye. That is just the way the world works.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Ohhhhhh i know.... we're stuck between a rock and a very hard place then, while offering an open ended return policy it is suseptable to abuse and then you also have the added worry of the animals returning back you having to be quarentined, screened etc.
> 
> But then again if we keep them back for 8 months, then tell the buyer that you have no right to return the animal as we're satisfied it is old enough to have shown the issues and it has not that we're deemed as bad breeders!
> 
> ...


No comments on these points???


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Lol Jeremy
You havent been here that long hun so you wont notice that we are used to people on here not seeing eye to eye thats the way the human race works, How boring would it be if we all agreed or all thought the same thing.

My point was IF the people in the USA say its ok and their view is taken as the truth, then why would it not be possible the other way round?

I wouldnt mind seeing a pic of that blue grass :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Maybe taking it down to 6 months would be better Ps geckos, 
That way no breeding (well not as high chance) 
As for your other points about seeing symptoms
Personally if the UK breeders are responsible enough to apply the COP which i can see all of you so far are willing to do then i would personally trust you all to say with out being biased if you can or can not see signs of an unhealthy gecko once it has been brought back to the breeder. 

Either that or a vet report should do it.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

6 months is around the sorta time it can get more visible though?...its a tricky one


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Ok lets gather some kind of conclusion from this thread
1.....It seems from the reports that more females are effected than males.

If this is the case then would it not be better to keep females back till they are 8 months and males until they are 6? 
By that time there should be some kind of signs if there is a problem or not?


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> Ok lets gather some kind of conclusion from this thread
> 1.....It seems from the reports that more females are effected than males.
> 
> If this is the case then would it not be better to keep females back till they are 8 months and males until they are 6?
> By that time there should be some kind of signs if there is a problem or not?


Sounds like a plan...a sensible one too


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

It is also way too late to expect all males to not be interested in breeding, if growing well males can try and breed around 4 months old. So they could have used the enigma to 10+ females and have the money back off you.

I havent decided exactly how i will go about things in terms of selling enigmas etc but i just cant see how this will work without leaving the breeder open to serious abuse.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> It is also way too late to expect all males to not be interested in breeding, if growing well males can try and breed around 4 months old. So they could have used the enigma to 10+ females and have the money back off you.
> 
> I havent decided exactly how i will go about things in terms of selling enigmas etc but i just cant see how this will work without leaving the breeder open to serious abuse.


personally ben ive never seen a 4 month old leo try and breed thats only 12 weeks :? 

but im not saying it wouldnt happen we all know males mature quicker than females, but a sale at 4 months then allow for a quarentine period for the buyer and they would be 5-6 months old any way.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> personally ben ive never seen a 4 month old leo try and breed thats only 12 weeks :?
> 
> but im not saying it wouldnt happen we all know males mature quicker than females, but a sale at 4 months then allow for a quarentine period for the buyer and they would be 5-6 months old any way.


16 weeks actually. 

well exactly, i just dont think you can get around it by offering that sort of guarentee.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

whoops my maths is rubbish isnt it lol.
I dont think offering a guarentee is the correct way forward.
But maybe offering some kind of warning that the leo MAY show signs and then asking the seller to document what they think the signs are, a video of the leo would be a good idea.
Then making the decission as the breeder on what to do next?

Either that or i just dont know as my brain hurts !


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> It is also way too late to expect all males to not be interested in breeding, if growing well males can try and breed around 4 months old. So they could have used the enigma to 10+ females and have the money back off you.
> 
> I havent decided exactly how i will go about things in terms of selling enigmas etc but i just cant see how this will work without leaving the breeder open to serious abuse.


I didn't want to post this as i didn't want to get _criticized_ for being negative or been seen not to cooperate or not trying to help, whereas all i am trying to do is highlight the negatives as the positives have been discussed and i agree in principle that it would be a really good idea but I too can see that this could possible leave breeders open to all sorts


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

The only way this is to work is if the negatives get fixed or relieved so you're quite right to highlight the potential problems PS...


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> It is also way too late to expect all males to not be interested in breeding, if growing well males can try and breed around 4 months old. So they could have used the enigma to 10+ females and have the money back off you.
> 
> I havent decided exactly how i will go about things in terms of selling enigmas etc but i just cant see how this will work without leaving the breeder open to serious abuse.


 
I agree ben this is also something we worry about but i am sure by the time we actually come to sell any we will have worked at what best to do, i feel therefore it is something uk enigma breeders need to decide between us all, so perhaps we could discuss more via pm with ps geckos, yourself and ark reptiles the problems we may face.
i don't feel it warrants us continuing pages and pages of debate on this post on the code of conduct.
As it now stands we have all agreed to sit and monitor, no new information has come to light and no more enigma owners have contributed with any more revelant info therfore lets agree to pm and discuss the options and chat more in the meantime with usa and europe breeders of the morph


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> I agree ben this is also something we worry about but i am sure by the time we actually come to sell any we will have worked at what best to do, i feel therefore it is something uk enigma breeders need to decide between us all, so perhaps we could discuss more via pm with ps geckos, yourself and ark reptiles the problems we may face.
> i don't feel it warrants us continuing pages and pages of debate on this post on the code of conduct.
> As it now stands we have all agreed to sit and monitor, no new information has come to light and no more enigma owners have contributed with any more revelant info therfore lets agree to pm and discuss the options and chat more in the meantime with usa and europe breeders of the morph


Im sorry melanie i dont see how taking it to PM will help the buyers or breeders, in this matter. 

It has already been said on here that the way forward would be for the breeders to be transparant this wont be the case if it is taken to PMs. 

However that is your choice and no one can force you all to air your discussions.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> whoops my maths is rubbish isnt it lol.
> I dont think offering a guarentee is the correct way forward.
> But maybe offering some kind of warning that the leo MAY show signs and then asking the seller to document what they think the signs are, a video of the leo would be a good idea.
> Then making the decission as the breeder on what to do next?
> ...


yes i agree, this would perhaps be better.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Wouldn't a Code of Conduct approved by buyers, as well as the breeders, create a better bond of trust with this issue? Non-Enigma breeders could have many ideas which they could contribute...I don't see how battling it out here is a problem


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> I didn't want to post this as i didn't want to get _criticized_ for being negative or been seen not to cooperate or not trying to help, whereas all i am trying to do is highlight the negatives as the positives have been discussed and i agree in principle that it would be a really good idea but I too can see that this could possible leave breeders open to all sorts


I am fully prepared to cooperate but not be open to that sort of abuse from anyone who wants a freebie from me. 

And i hope people see what im saying as that but if they dont thats tough, i will not be offering to take back any and every enigma, but i will only sell enigmas i am confident are 100% fine and i would of course review any issue any one had.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> yes i agree, this would perhaps be better.


So possibaly making decissions on a case by case would work?
For example if a buyer wants to bring a leo back to the seller and that leo is only found to have parasites then no refund, or if the leo is seen by the breeder to have problems already documented on the morph, possibally asking another breeder or a vet would be the answer?


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

melanie said:


> I agree ben this is also something we worry about but i am sure by the time we actually come to sell any we will have worked at what best to do, i feel therefore it is something uk enigma breeders need to decide between us all, so perhaps we could discuss more via pm with ps geckos, yourself and ark reptiles the problems we may face.
> i don't feel it warrants us continuing pages and pages of debate on this post on the code of conduct.
> As it now stands we have all agreed to sit and monitor, no new information has come to light and no more enigma owners have contributed with any more revelant info therfore lets agree to pm and discuss the options and chat more in the meantime with usa and europe breeders of the morph


I think as the enigma breeders we can continue to listen to and discuss posibilities with other breeders and potential buyers here but i agree we could also discuss finer details by pm so as not to clog up this thread.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> So possibaly making decissions on a case by case would work?
> For example if a buyer wants to bring a leo back to the seller and that leo is only found to have parasites then no refund, or if the leo is seen by the breeder to have problems already documented on the morph, possibally asking another breeder or a vet would be the answer?


Yes which is the way i would review anyone returning a gecko, no breeder would openly offer to take any gecko back ragardless would they? 

But most/all would review each "case".

Sales of the enigmas should be no different, people should be made aware before the sale and both parties should be reasonable.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> I think as the enigma breeders we can continue to listen to and discuss posibilities with other breeders and potential buyers here but i agree we could also discuss finer details by pm so as not to clog up this thread.


I honestly dont see how that will help 
What about enigma breeders that do not belong to RFUK? 
Its not going to show them the finer details and why would they abide by a code of conduct they have had no imput in to. 

Not only that i honestly believe that the public as buyers would want to see how the code of conduct came about and what ideas were put the table and rejected or accepted.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> I honestly dont see how that will help
> What about enigma breeders that do not belong to RFUK?
> It not going to show them the finer details and why would they abide by a code of conduct they have had no imput in to.
> 
> Not only that i honestly believe that the public as buyers would want to see how the code of conduct came about and what ideas were put the table and rejected or accepted.


Yes which is why i stated it is also discussed by us here, but i cannot see the harm with us also discussing enigma related matters in private, it doesnt mean we are hiding anything as at the end of the day the final decision will be made by us and buyers will have the choice. 

I cannot see how anyone can disagree with that.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

We're going up to Nick & Carries this weekend so i'm sure it will be discussed albeit not publically, but i'm sure either ourselves or Nick & Carrie will report back anything worth reporting


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Yes which is why i stated it is also discussed by us here, but i cannot see the harm with us also discussing enigma related matters in private, it doesnt mean we are hiding anything as at the end of the day the final decision will be made by us and buyers will have the choice.
> 
> I cannot see how anyone can disagree with that.


So the enigma breeders that dont belong to RFUK?
Then what do they do 
They dont really have a choice if its discussed in private, then if they dont abide with it everyone will jump on them for not doing so.

I know im prob being a pain in the rear but i wouldnt want to give someone rules that they have had no imput to.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> We're going up to Nick & Carries this weekend so i'm sure it will be discussed albeit not publically, but i'm sure either ourselves or Nick & Carrie will report back anything worth reporting


That's us by the way !!!

I will start a new thread 'The Enigma Code' - sounds cool!! I think it is only fair that all have a say in what the code should encompass.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> So the enigma breeders that dont belong to RFUK?
> Then what do they do
> They dont really have a choice if its discussed in private, then if they dont abide with it everyone will jump on them for not doing so.
> 
> I know im prob being a pain in the rear but i wouldnt want to give someone rules that they have had no imput to.


No not a pain but i dont think you understand my point. They will have a say wont they..... HERE. 

And those that dont belong to RFUK wont know whether its here or in pm's will they???? 

Thats just the way it is. 

I am quite happy to talk here or through pm's to anyone who has any suggestions on how a "rule" is made.

But i will also talk through pm's with several people. 

Im talking to diablo on msn now, its not private as such but we wouldnt just post to each other here would we??? Its just talkig, this will remain as a discussion area which i will happily continue to contribute my thoughts to.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> I will start a new thread 'The Enigma Code' - sounds cool!! I think it is only fair that all have a say in what the code should encompass.


Thankyou!!!!! Lets involve the whole unit of people involved...!! Well done Nick lol:no1:


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> That's us by the way !!!
> 
> I will start a new thread 'The Enigma Code' - sounds cool!! I think it is only fair that all have a say in what the code should encompass.


Thank you nick 
title sounds good 
I just think it needs to be there for all to see the breeders of this season and the new ones of the next and so on. 

I know personally i would not be comfortable following rules i had no say in. As we see in every day life with our current laws etc.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> I know personally i would not be comfortable following rules i had no say in. As we see in every day life with our current laws etc.


Extremely valid point...plus like I said earlier it makes the whole relationship between breeder and buyer a lot more trusting


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> No not a pain but i dont think you understand my point. They will have a say wont they..... HERE.
> 
> And those that dont belong to RFUK wont know whether its here or in pm's will they????
> 
> ...


The thing is its in a public forum guests can view this part of the forum. 
So any one that does a search on enigmas would be pointed to rfuk which they would then be able to read and decide for their selfs if they wanted to follow the COC


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> The thing is its in a public forum guests can view this part of the forum.
> So any one that does a search on enigmas would be pointed to rfuk which they would then be able to read and decide for their selfs if they wanted to follow the COC


Yep and the info will be there, discussing by pm's doesnt take that information away.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Yep and the info will be there, discussing by pm's doesnt take that information away.


Im not saying it will but there is a possibility that it could, 
I hope you see where im coming from as a possible enigma owner i would like to see the COC before i agree to comply with it.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> Im not saying it will but there is a possibility that it could,
> I hope you see where im coming from as a possible enigma owner i would like to see the COC before i agree to comply with it.


Absolutely, it could yes but it wont, as anything decisive i personally discuss by pm i would post in the relative thread and alert people. That way the information there is useful and up to date based on what we have agreed.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

*The Enigma Code*

new thread is up! http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/108150-enigma-code.html#post1518230


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I also agree that the COC would and should be arranged and dicussed publicly - after all this is a matter that affects breeders and the public alike.

I don't own leos, have no agenda by my posting and certainly have no plans to own or breed enigma leos - not before or after this thread began BUT as a reptile keeper who would like to see positive communication between breeder and buyer, I feel it is essential that the whole community not be kept aside on this.

Just my opinion


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> I also agree that the COC would and should be arranged and dicussed publicly - after all this is a matter that affects breeders and the public alike.


100% Agreed


----------



## Jeremy Letkey (Mar 19, 2008)

I believe that the Code of Conduct is a great idea in principle. 

I however do not believe that it will be an effective tool in helping to understand and/or eliminate any problems. There are too many variables and what if's. I will not be bound by what someone else deems as the moral thing to do. The right thing to do will vary with every what if.


Call me a rebel but I will decide my own course of action. I believe in educating buyers and letting them make their own decisions. I will openly discuss any questions with a buyer. I will give them the facts that I know, as well as my thoughts and opinions. They then will make their decision accordingly.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Jeremy Letkey said:


> I believe that the Code of Conduct is a great idea in principle.
> 
> I however do not believe that it will be an effective tool in helping to understand and/or eliminate any problems. There are too many variables and what if's. I will not be bound by what someone else deems as the moral thing to do. The right thing to do will vary with every what if.
> 
> ...


Im still waiting for a pic of your blue grass lol 


I agree people are boud by their own morals and there is a phrase in the uk " on your head be it " in other words it is the breeder repsonsibility to decided what they want to do with their own animals, but........
I also dont think it will do any harm if there is a general one in place of course the refunding or exchanging will have to work on a case by case basis.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Jeremy Letkey said:


> I believe that the Code of Conduct is a great idea in principle.
> 
> I however do not believe that it will be an effective tool in helping to understand and/or eliminate any problems. There are too many variables and what if's. I will not be bound by what someone else deems as the moral thing to do. The right thing to do will vary with every what if.
> 
> ...


That is how it should be, seller explains all details known and the buyer makes a decision.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

I am happy to discuss options with other breeders of the morph via pm however i feel that it is not necesary to openly post on a forum a code of code which implies imediatly there is a problem and our worries and concerns regarding how this will apply to us.
I also do not feel the need to ask buyers what they think about the code and the majorty of people who seem interested in this code are also the people who have expressed a interest NOT to buy the morph , if anyone does not like my terms then they will go elswhere although this has never deterred anyone before with this

I sell all my geckos based mainly on reputation and belive i offer the same standards and terms with any morph i sell.
If there are any problems i will deal with each case their and then, i don't expect there to be any but if any do arise i will have decided how best to go about it prior to selling them by discussing with other enigma breeders from here.
As long as we have simular plans we can then adopt them and apply them to each individual situation that may arise.

I do not feel it is important to put live on the forum so other enigma breeders can see because that then implies they they should also all agree which is a form of bulling, it is not fair for me to put onto others what i think they should do.

I will happily chat with nick, ben, pete and sarah on this via pm but i am against starting another thread that implies that this code needs to be applied specifically to this morph.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Jeremy Letkey said:


> I believe that the Code of Conduct is a great idea in principle.
> 
> I however do not believe that it will be an effective tool in helping to understand and/or eliminate any problems. There are too many variables and what if's. I will not be bound by what someone else deems as the moral thing to do. The right thing to do will vary with every what if.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you here and have stated what we intend to do below, each case if one arises will be taken on and decided then, each individual case is differnt.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

melanie said:


> I am happy to discuss options with other breeders of the morph via pm however i feel that it is not necesary to openly post on a forum a code of code which implies imediatly there is a problem and our worries and concerns regarding how this will apply to us.
> I also do not feel the need to ask buyers what they think about the code and the majorty of people who seem interested in this code are also the people who have expressed a interest NOT to buy the morph , if anyone does not like my terms then they will go elswhere although this has never deterred anyone before with this
> 
> I sell all my geckos based mainly on reputation and belive i offer the same standards and terms with any morph i sell.
> ...


To be honest, i tend to agree. At first i was open to a bit more of a wide debate but already people seem to abuse this and try and push set rules which "MUST" be followed which is simply not the case. 

For example it seems to have been agreed and almost set in stone no enigmas will be sold until 8 months old and even then they will be able to be returned at a drop of a hat.

I have not once said i agree to such terms but if i now go against them will i be deemed as irresponsible???

I do not feel i need to contribute any further at this current time but if anyone feels they need to speak with me they are welcome to pm me. 

Thanks,

Ben


----------



## Jeremy Letkey (Mar 19, 2008)

Faith said:


> Im still waiting for a pic of your blue grass lol


I personally do have Kentucky bluegrass. However it is under the snow currently. lol

oh and just so you know... Kentucky bluegrass isn't really blue, it's green. :whistling2: It is called Kentucky bluegrass though. lol


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

melanie said:


> I do not feel it is important to put live on the forum so other enigma breeders can see because that then implies they they should also all agree which is a form of bulling, it is not fair for me to put onto others what i think they should do.


Bullying? Forcing them into it or taunting them would be bullying - educating them is what would be happening...letting them contribute to discussion and helping them make their minds up.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Jeremy Letkey said:


> I personally do have Kentucky bluegrass. However it is under the snow currently. lol
> 
> oh and just so you know... Kentucky bluegrass isn't really blue, it's green. :whistling2: It is called Kentucky bluegrass though. lol


I thought my google images were lying lol


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

No one can force anyone to do something they dont want to 
For example if a breeder wants to sell an enigma as soon as it hatches thats down to them, no one else. 

But the breeders that are discussing this at the moment can not then start shouting their mouth off if a different breeder wants to release their leos at 2 months old. Why? because the new breeders would not have had a say in the cop that you are all discussing at the moment.

Personally as long as buyers are aware of the fact there could be possible problems with the morph then it is up to them to make their own decissions as buyers and potential breeders, unless your going to be reviewing the cop everytime someone new pops up!


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

anyone that is interested in buying a enigma will contact me via the site and then things will be discussed then.
they will be made aware of *possible* potential signs that could arise however i would not sell unless i was 100% happy anyway.
Like ben i also feel i do not need to ask buyers what they think i should do and i feel this is mainly a breeder issue we can discuss and debate on what happens if?.

ben i will pm you later: victory:


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

> I am happy to discuss options with other breeders of the morph via pm however i feel that it is not necesary to openly post on a forum a code of code which implies imediatly there is a problem and our worries and concerns regarding how this will apply to us.
> I also do not feel the need to ask buyers what they think about the code and the majorty of people who seem interested in this code are also the people who have expressed a interest NOT to buy the morph , if anyone does not like my terms then they will go elswhere although this has never deterred anyone before with this


Sorry Mel but i am confused - you beleive that the opinion of those who currently don't wish to own an Enigma is less important than that of those who will give money to breeders?

My opinions and such like are just as important as anyone elses and I find it slightly offensive that you would suggest that because I am not paying you money, I have no business being involved in the discussion as to how the COC's should be laid out.

End of the day, without the buyer, there is no point you breeding anything. You really shoulodn't brush the non-breeders of the forum under the carpet 

(and i don't wish this to turn into an argument and mean it in no way personally towards Mel just stating my opinons)


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> No one can force anyone to do something they dont want to
> For example if a breeder wants to sell an enigma as soon as it hatches thats down to them, no one else. and i personally have no problem with that if they do, thats their decision not mine to take for them
> 
> But the breeders that are discussing this at the moment can not then start shouting their mouth off if a different breeder wants to release their leos at 2 months old.I won't they can do what they want to and i will do also but i think it would be good for us to discuss other issues more such as what ben and ps have bought up  Why? because the new breeders would not have had a say in the cop that you are all discussing at the moment.
> ...


 yes the cop will be just that not set in stone and each case will be treated on their own merits by appling a code set in stone it is open to abuse

hey i can get a enigma and then if i run short i can get my money back and so many simular situations could arise.

if joe bloggs wants to sell his enigma at 2 months then so be it i have no problems with that, it;s his reputation and i trust he knows what he is doing and is happy with.

i personally will not sell till 8 months but this is my choice and my decision and one i am happy with.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> Sorry Mel but i am confused - you beleive that the opinion of those who currently don't wish to own an Enigma is less important than that of those who will give money to breeders?
> 
> My opinions and such like are just as important as anyone elses and I find it slightly offensive that you would suggest that because I am not paying you money, I have no business being involved in the discussion as to how the COC's should be laid out.
> 
> ...


Well said...


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> Sorry Mel but i am confused - you beleive that the opinion of those who currently don't wish to own an Enigma is less important than that of those who will give money to breeders?
> 
> My opinions and such like are just as important as anyone elses and I find it slightly offensive that you would suggest that because I am not paying you money, I have no business being involved in the discussion as to how the COC's should be laid out.
> 
> ...


 
why should someone not interested in buying feel they have aright to tell me how i should sell? 

if you are interested then you will ask questions and i will answer but if you are not then why do you feel it necessary to tell me how to do things.

the coc is something breeders will decide between them and adapt, if buyers are not happy then they will go elsewhere.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Well let's just hope all the breeders don't hold the same attitude towards keepers or you will all have no place to sell to!

It isn't just about you and what you sell, it is about the morph in question and the future of it within the captive industry in the UK (and elsewhere) - or so I thought up until now.

I am a buyer, I do buy and I would possibly consider buying in the future as are many other users on this forum. Just because someone doesn't want something right now then doesn't mean they won't in the future and the actions of breeders NOW while there is a problem brewing will be noted by many for future reference.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

It;s nice to know someone has remembered the most important thing in all of this - leopard geckos


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> Well let's just hope all the breeders don't hold the same attitude towards keepers or you will all have no place to sell to!
> 
> It isn't just about you and what you sell, it is about the morph in question and the future of it within the captive industry in the UK (and elsewhere) - or so I thought up until now.
> 
> *I am a buyer, I do buy and I would possibly consider buying in the future as are many other users on this forum. Just because someone doesn't want something right now then doesn't mean they won't in the future and the actions of breeders NOW while there is a problem brewing will be noted by many for future reference.*





this sounds like a bulling tatic to me forcing me into a decision i am not completely happy with, i will not be subjected to this and as i stated to other breeders that buyers could use this against us, looks like i was right and i have proved my point!:whip:

no further discussion end of !


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Bullying? Sorry Mel I fail to see how you reach the conclusion that it is bullying.

I just genuinely feel that both breeders and potential buyers would benefit from working together on such a tentative issue.

It benefits both sides - breeders and buyers alinke - to be able to understand each others views and I in no way intended to make you feel "bullied" from my 3 or 4 posts on this whole thread.

My views are irrelevant anyway apprently so I shall step out for now unless I feel I can add anything further


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

melanie said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> this sounds like a bulling tatic to me forcing me into a decision i am not completely happy with, i will not be subjected to this and as i stated to other breeders that buyers could use this against us, looks like i was right and i have proved my point!:whip:
> ...


How is that a bulling tactic mel?
Stating an opinion is not bullying at all and i surgest if you think it is report the post!

No on can force you in to anything what so ever 
I have an example 

Even when someone has a gun to their head they have a choice!
1 you die screaming 
2 you die quietly 

Everyone will always have choices thats life
We as buyers/breeders/sellers have a choice not to buy from people we do not wish to, not to sell to people we do not wish to and to breed what we want.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Brit? Forceful? I thought that was quite informative, hardly forceful


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> Well let's just hope all the breeders don't hold the same attitude towards keepers or you will all have no place to sell to!
> 
> It isn't just about you and what you sell, it is about the morph in question and the future of it within the captive industry in the UK (and elsewhere) - or so I thought up until now.
> 
> I am a buyer, I do buy and I would possibly consider buying in the future as are many other users on this forum. Just because someone doesn't want something right now then doesn't mean they won't in the future and the actions of breeders NOW while there is a problem brewing will be noted by many for future reference.


Hi, I sympathise with both your point of view and Melanie's. There is a new thread concerning a possible code where we have invited opinions from all.

All opinions will be considered and at the appropriate time and as a group of breeders we will let you know what we are happy to sign up to. I will not at this stage pre-judge what that will be - this has to be a consultative process.

You will note from our website that we have alerted potential buyers to the issue. Highlighting the issue in this way should prompt anyone interested to investigate further or to ask us questions to allow them to make an INFORMED decision. Therefore regardless of the proposed Code we, as responsible breeders, have taken the action we feel necessary. The discussion on here will reveal what the non-breeders would like to see in addition (if anything).


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

nicklamb said:


> Hi, I sympathise with both your point of view and Melanie's. There is a new thread concerning a possible code where we have invited opinions from all.
> 
> All opinions will be considered and at the appropriate time and as a group of breeders we will let you know what we are happy to sign up to. I will not at this stage pre-judge what that will be - this has to be a consultative process.
> 
> You will note from our website that we have alerted potential buyers to the issue. Highlighting the issue in this way should prompt anyone interested to investigate further or to ask us questions to allow them to make an INFORMED decision. Therefore regardless of the proposed Code we, as responsible breeders, have taken the action we feel necessary. The discussion on here will reveal what the non-breeders would like to see in addition (if anything).


Thanks Nick  I know that you have made a public effort to show that you are willing to listen to the people who would potentially buy from you.

For me, and I am sure for many others, this in itself is a very responsible attitude to adopt as it shows you care that keepers and buyers work alongside breeders like yourself to offer the best possible future forthe Enigma leo 

I am just unsure if breeders will wish to post on the other thread as it has already been stated that it is not being viewed as anything to do with buyers, only breeders and is to be conducted behind closed doors which is very sad as the reptile community never seems to pull together in situations like this.

I do very much appreciate your ability to be open on the boards though and on your website to prospective clients and I am sure that many others feel the same 

(my I sound quite up my own rear there - my appreication is neither here nor there I am sure but yu get where I am coming from )


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Well after another few hours of reading here and on the Gecko site, one thing that has jumped out at me is that if I were about to consider buying an Enigma, I would be turning to Nick because he has remained totally stable in what he has said throughout, and I feel I can trust him 100% of the way. I'm sorry to say that the vibes I am receiving via PSGeckos posts at times, and in nearly all of Melanie's posts would ensure that I could not turn to them. Remember, this is just my personal opinion, and therefore just how I am left feeling. There are many reasons why I feel like this, but won't drag up every detail here.

I will say though that although PSGeckos and Melanie appear to be going with the flow here, and agreeing there is a problem, when someone says there's not, they jump in happily with both hands very quickly, thus giving me the impression that they hate the fact that these threads are running, and would in truth give anything for these threads to be buried. Again it's just how you have left me feeling, but I have to wonder if there are others out there thinking the same too. If this is not the intention, then perhaps a little more thought before posting would be the way to go, and a cooler attitude from you Melanie, as anger, although partially smothered, is still showing it's self, and is not in your long term interest. 

Maureen, now gone in search of some Armour.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Sorry, whilst i have seen most peoples views here and been prepared to listen to them i feel the thread has turned slightly nasty. 

Melanie seems to be an area to focus on now and i would be interested if anyone could give me any VALID reasons why??? (which i highly doubt based on the rubbish that is now arising from many people). 

Comments such as im glad people have remebered what is important - leopard geckos that are aimed against melanie are ridiculous as i think we all know she is a very caring breeder.

It is very easy for everyone to "go with the flow" but is that the only way you can be responsible. 

Because mel has said something different everyone else feels they can stick with the numbers and have a go??? 

My opinions of alot of members has gone down in these last few pages and i have to say im dissapointed. 

Mel made a vaild point that why would people who didnt want to own enigmas be so concerned about terms and conditions of sales (which is all this code of conduct of conduct ******* is!) . And she gets jumped on by people? Why???? 

Are you really all that childish and confident in groups sat behind computer screens???

Discraceful.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Sorry, whilst i have seen most peoples views here and been prepared to listen to them i feel the thread has turned slightly nasty.
> 
> Melanie seems to be an area to focus on now and i would be interested if anyone could give me any VALID reasons why??? (which i highly doubt based on the rubbish that is now arising from many people).
> 
> ...


Ben i think the reason Brit was so upset about the post is because she may possibly be a future owner and everyones opinion on the matter is valid as it has been said before time and time again. 

Those that may not want to own enigmas now may want to next week or next month, therefore i personally think it has everything to do with the reptile comunity as a whole if they feel the need to post their opinions then so be it, after all this is a public forum.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Why can't anyone else be involved in the code of conduct? what about gthe future enigma buyers or breeders? what about the other breeders that have ideas? what about the buyers who feel they want to input?


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> Ben i think the reason Brit was so upset about the post is because she may possibly be a future owner and everyones opinion on the matter is valid as it has been said before time and time again.
> 
> Those that may not want to own enigmas now may want to next week or next month, therefore i personally think it has everything to do with the reptile comunity as a whole if they feel the need to post their opinions then so be it, after all this is a public forum.


Yes but why is it that no one can seem to word things in a sensible way faith. 

To be fair i have to say you do, which is why if you notice i have not once been aggrevated by your comments even if i have debated them slightly. 

There are people here that have no real interest in the morph and no real concern for the welfare of it but fancy jumping on board to have a go. 

The fact is we are talking about being interested in terms and conditions NOW not in a "week or two". Before i make terms and conditions relating to a normal leopard gecko sale do i have to discuss them publicly.... ? NO. Before the sale is made the customer is made aware of them and makes a decision.

The enigma is not any different. 

If and when the breeders have enigmas to offer terms and conditions will be stated and the sales can occur.

In the meantime i support open discussions on what such terms could be but not picking on a breeder because what they have said doesnt give 100% of people their own way.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> Why can't anyone else be involved in the code of conduct? what about gthe future enigma buyers or breeders? what about the other breeders that have ideas? what about the buyers who feel they want to input?


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read my posts properly and stop being so blind to every point made, this is what i mean. Every post not bending over backwards to please everyone here is deemed as if we want to hide away in private and not include anyone.


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Sorry, whilst i have seen most peoples views here and been prepared to listen to them i feel the thread has turned slightly nasty.
> 
> Melanie seems to be an area to focus on now and i would be interested if anyone could give me any VALID reasons why??? (which i highly doubt based on the rubbish that is now arising from many people).
> 
> ...


 
Ben its Maureens opinion, i respect that, thank you for been so honest maureen, although we are dissapointed you feel that way  And no we don't hate the fact this thread is running, the bit we hate is the constant bitching to be honest.

I feel we have remained focused and have implied our comitment to achieving a code of conduct, i have questioned a few things along the way. We are not as good at typing/grammar as Nick.

Its hard not to get emotional over this, last night i was tired and agreed with Hades as it was pintless discussing over 5 pages about a bloody label!

Please take a look over the Enigma Code, i hope you can see we have put some valid comments up and not being distructive or uncooperative.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Yes but why is it that no one can seem to word things in a sensible way faith.
> 
> To be fair i have to say you do, which is why if you notice i have not once been aggrevated by your comments even if i have debated them slightly.
> 
> ...


Ok ben let me put it this way. 
I can word things the way i do because no matter what i dont get wound up easily,
That is not the case for others mel, brit and diablo included. 

If someone said to you that there was going to be a code of conduct about reptiles then you would want to be involved yes? id hope so 
Now if that person also said to you they were also going to be doing one on cats dogs mice or what ever then said that as a person that likes animals you have no say because you dont want to buy one today tell me how thats right?

Now considering we have not confirmed or denied that we may or may not own an enigma, IF we ever sell one we will be asking the people we respect in the industry what they would recomend as well as asking potential buyers, what they would be happy with. 
After all with out a buyer what do we have ??? nothing

I personally dont feel that making buyers feel alienated is the correct thing to do.

I'm not saying dont come up with your own personal coc but asking the people that you may or male not deal with in the future might help in the sales later on.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

PSGeckos said:


> Ben its Maureens opinion, i respect that, thank you for been so honest maureen, although we are dissapointed you feel that way
> 
> I feel we have remained focused and have implied our comitment to achieving a code of conduct, i have questioned a few things along the way. We are not as good at typing/grammar as Nick.
> 
> ...


Maybe so... but unlike others im not going to agree. Totally unfair comments are not just accpeted. I feel that you as well as mel have been unfairly treated for suggesting anything that they dont agree with. 

Lets just remember the enigmas have nothing proven to be wrong with them and people are talking like they are a completely infected morph. 

Buyers have the CHOICE whether to buy or not, that is their input and at the end of the day a pretty big one so i dont know what your all complaining about. 

Sellers determine the rest. Suggestions will be welcomed by most (certainly me) but i will not deal with people who feel it neccesary to turn this personal.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read my posts properly and stop being so blind to every point made, this is what i mean. Every post not bending over backwards to please everyone here is deemed as if we want to hide away in private and not include anyone.


I'm not saying that hun honestly. I'm just throwing up the random yet valid questions and comments that keep popping up that don't get answered. PLUS I don't act blind to every point made, I'm not even posting much because I'd rather read and learn!

As for hiding away in private, no-ones accusing anyone of trying to do that. There's lots of us who would really like to offer help and play a part in this.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> Ok ben let me put it this way.
> I can word things the way i do because no matter what i dont get wound up easily,
> That is not the case for others mel, brit and diablo included.
> 
> ...


Absolutely but why the need for personal comments???? Why turn on certain people because the coc doesn't suit what you want???

At the end of the day how is that respecting peoples choice to make their own terms up?? 

I dont understand why you (as someone who seems pretty reasonable) would defend people making childish comments.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> I'm not saying that hun honestly. I'm just throwing up the random yet valid questions and comments that keep popping up that don't get answered. PLUS I don't act blind to every point made, I'm not even posting much because I'd rather read and learn!
> 
> As for hiding away in private, no-ones accusing anyone of trying to do that. There's lots of us who would really like to offer help and play a part in this.


Good, and of course i value opinions of people such as yourself, but i do take offense at people starting to turn on individuals for no apparent reason.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> Good, and of course i value opinions of people such as yourself, but i do take offense at people starting to turn on individuals for no apparent reason.


Well I'm so sorry that it looks or seems this way - but I don't totally agree that I was turning on Mel for no apparent reason.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Ok well ill give you an insite....
I will defend what i personally percieve as right. 
I will also not sit back and watch someone say that one persons opinion is not valid and when a responce is made for that person to acuse someone of bullying. 

Time and time again mel has mentioned about the way people word things in their posts maybe thats all she is guilty of is not wording it correctly im not saying its right or wrong Ben. What i am saying is that Mel (i would hope understand) that the idea of selling is to make the buyers happy if she is not able to do that it will result in loss of sales (not that she doesnt make them happy) 

Maybe mel is not worried about sales of the enigmas at all which is her choice but re read the posts and you will find mel made it personal when she replied to Brit.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> Well I'm so sorry that it looks or seems this way - but I don't totally agree that I was turning on Mel for no apparent reason.


Perhaps you werent or certainly not alone, i cant say as i payed too much attention to it. But she was certainly getting unfair treatment in general.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> Sorry Mel but i am confused - you beleive that the opinion of those who currently don't wish to own an Enigma is less important than that of those who will give money to breeders?
> 
> My opinions and such like are just as important as anyone elses and I find it slightly offensive that you would suggest that because I am not paying you money, I have no business being involved in the discussion as to how the COC's should be laid out.
> 
> ...





melanie said:


> why should someone not interested in buying feel they have aright to tell me how i should sell?
> 
> if you are interested then you will ask questions and i will answer but if you are not then why do you feel it necessary to tell me how to do things.
> 
> the coc is something breeders will decide between them and adapt, if buyers are not happy then they will go elsewhere.





brittone05 said:


> Well let's just hope all the breeders don't hold the same attitude towards keepers or you will all have no place to sell to!
> 
> It isn't just about you and what you sell, it is about the morph in question and the future of it within the captive industry in the UK (and elsewhere) - or so I thought up until now.
> 
> I am a buyer, I do buy and I would possibly consider buying in the future as are many other users on this forum. Just because someone doesn't want something right now then doesn't mean they won't in the future and the actions of breeders NOW while there is a problem brewing will be noted by many for future reference.





melanie said:


> [/b]
> 
> 
> this sounds like a bulling tatic to me forcing me into a decision i am not completely happy with, i will not be subjected to this and as i stated to other breeders that buyers could use this against us, looks like i was right and i have proved my point!:whip:
> ...





brittone05 said:


> Bullying? Sorry Mel I fail to see how you reach the conclusion that it is bullying.
> 
> I just genuinely feel that both breeders and potential buyers would benefit from working together on such a tentative issue.
> 
> ...


 

Ben tell me how that sounded personal? i dont see how it was and im sure if it was classfied as bullying then the mods would have removed it. 

Please anyone if ive missed it highlight it for me.


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

Faith said:


> Ben tell me how that sounded personal? i dont see how it was and im sure if it was classfied as bullying then the mods would have removed it.
> 
> Please anyone if ive missed it highlight it for me.


I give up. Perhaps you would all be happier if i didint stick up for people and allow this so called "community" to continue. 

I think to be honest mel wouldn't want to post here anymore anyway the way people are showing their opinion. 

PSgeckos i hope also cover themselves and dont get dragged into these code of conduct set "rules" that we must all follow. 

This way perhaps you would all be happier not buying into the enigma morph as you all seem to have your minds made up its no good.


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Hi again PSGECKOS. 

Thanks for such a lovely reply, and I wish to say that I now feel like I'm about 1 inch tall. I, perhaps in retrospect should not have posted in haste, as your reply to me has showed you in a totally different light, and explained in a few words that you are caring. :blush: Sorry. 

I guess this subject, and others like it have our emotions running too high at times, and our posts sometimes reflect this. It's so different to doing face to face, where we can view the other person, and correct something possibly offensive to the other person on the spot, if we see they are affected by it.

Maureen.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> PSgeckos i hope also cover themselves and dont get dragged into these code of conduct set "rules" that we must all follow.


The CoC - this was the only idea that anyone came up with and so building on the idea to see if would be viable isn't of any harm? I don't think people are being dragged into it are they?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> I give up. Perhaps you would all be happier if i didint stick up for people and allow this so called "community" to continue.
> 
> I think to be honest mel wouldn't want to post here anymore anyway the way people are showing their opinion.
> 
> ...


Ben im not sure where your getting this from
No one is saying that anyone HAS to do anything they dont want to. 
No one has said that you should not defend what you think is right. 

As i said at the end of the day everyone has a choice if its the buyer or the seller. 
As a buyer we have the choice who to buy from, 
As a seller we have a choice who to sell to, 
As a breeder we have a choice what to breed. 
No on can tell us we are right or wrong and the only people we have to answer to is ourselfs. 
It is up to us to battle with our morals they are ours no one elses


Woooo HOOOOOO 3,000 posts jenna only 7000 more to go


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

BY its very nature ben noone can be dragged into a code of conduct... it is a suggested moral code and not legally binding

we all have freedom of choice...

it is at times though in life true that some have more freedom than others


----------



## benjrobinson (Feb 22, 2007)

sparkle said:


> BY its very nature ben noone can be dragged into a code of conduct... it is a suggested moral code and not legally binding
> 
> we all have freedom of choice...
> 
> it is at times though in life true that some have more freedom than others


I know full well noone can be physically forced into one i was referring to the way it has been made out that unless following this coc you are irresponsible and you knew full well what i meant but had to post just to argue a point didnt you?

Its pathetic.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

sparkle said:


> BY its very nature ben noone can be dragged into a code of conduct... it is a suggested moral code and not legally binding
> 
> we all have freedom of choice...
> 
> it is at times though in life true that some have more freedom than others


Personally just by looking at the ammount of views this thread has had there are now a lot of people fully aware of what may or may not be wrong with the enigma morph and that should speak volumes in its self. 

I think only time will tell on what the buyer is looking for in the code of conduct and that breeders may change their minds because of that.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

benjrobinson said:


> I know full well noone can be physically forced into one i was referring to the way it has been made out that unless following this coc you are irresponsible and you knew full well what i meant but had to post just to argue a point didnt you?
> 
> Its pathetic.


Ben chill out 
I have to agree that not having a code of conduct when breeding any animal is irresponsible 
Look again at dogs and the KC they have a strict code in place to protect the animal and the buyer. 

Im sorry but we have a code of conduct in place when we sell anyone an animal but i do agree it is up to the breeders indivdually to put this in place.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Right, here's an idea 

Now, what can we do as breeders/buyers/keepers of these affected little geckos??? I've said to a few people that my OH is thinking of putting a cam in the viv to try and track some more progress or symptoms. Has anyone else got any good ideas that I could borrow?!


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> Right, here's an idea
> 
> Now, what can we do as breeders/buyers/keepers of these affected little geckos??? I've said to a few people that my OH is thinking of putting a cam in the viv to try and track some more progress or symptoms. Has anyone else got any good ideas that I could borrow?!


Different lighting conditions hun, 
Get the vet to check for ear conditions that may or may not rule some things out.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

ear conditions...good idea! The last thing I want to do is stress her out so I'm going to tread very carefully. I think I might try my vet back in Manchester and see what he thinks...he did my Pepper's eyes once so I know he knows his eye stuff, may be worth him having a look.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Right, I would like to point out if possible that I do NOT have any personal issues with Melanie or anyone else involved in this thread.

I was merely trying to put across an unbiased opinion from a keeper who has in the past kept and bred leos and hopes to do so again in the future.

I did not at any point wish to make anyone perceive my posts as bullying and I will publicly apologise to Melanie if she so felt I was - that was not my intention and I could have possibly worded it better so it did not come across as aimed specifically toward her.

My whole point I was trying to make is that we are a community - a minority it would seem where anti exotics keepers would seek any crack to drive a wedge into.

In situations such as this one be it a proven genetic problem, a recessive neurological problem or a simple case of a whole load of 1 specific type of gecko suffering weak ears and having middle ear infections we SHOULD be discussing things as a community.

Divisions such as breeder vs keeper simply will not benefit anyone. 

The buyer is the key factor to any large scale breeder and it isn't nice having your opinion dimissed just because you aren't currently an owner of a specific morph.

What has popped up into my mind is the possibility of this being a genetic ear problem in the Enigmas. I know my daughters both suffer genetic ear problems which they inherited from me (how kind am I sharing!!) and wondered if it was possible that a particular line of breeding could produce an inherant weak ear canal? This would explain the circling and lack of balance and would also account ofr some of the apprent light sensitivity as the eye nerves and ear nerves are all connected as far as I am aware (like ENT kind of style)

Is it possible that with the likes of white dogs, deafness is an inhearant yet sporadic problem that this could be the case in the enigma line?

I simply wish to help find a solution - not as an enigma owner or breeder but as a reptile keeper, an animal lover and a member of the herping community - surely we each have that individual right


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Can I remind *everyone* that there is now a thread where *all* of you can put up suggestions for the proposed COC for selling not just this morph but any animal with a known defect.

Now - no more bickering please :crazy: this is about responsible husbandry.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Maureen Collinson said:


> Well after another few hours of reading here and on the Gecko site, one thing that has jumped out at me is that if I were about to consider buying an Enigma, I would be turning to Nick because he has remained totally stable in what he has said throughout, and I feel I can trust him 100% of the way. I'm sorry to say that the vibes I am receiving via PSGeckos posts at times, and in nearly all of Melanie's posts would ensure that I could not turn to them. Remember, this is just my personal opinion, and therefore just how I am left feeling. There are many reasons why I feel like this, but won't drag up every detail here.
> 
> I will say though that although PSGeckos and Melanie appear to be going with the flow here, and agreeing there is a problem, when someone says there's not, they jump in happily with both hands very quickly, thus giving me the impression that they hate the fact that these threads are running, and would in truth give anything for these threads to be buried. Again it's just how you have left me feeling, but I have to wonder if there are others out there thinking the same too. If this is not the intention, then perhaps a little more thought before posting would be the way to go, and a cooler attitude from you Melanie, as anger, although partially smothered, is still showing it's self, and is not in your long term interest.
> 
> Maureen, now gone in search of some Armour.


Maureen, many thanks for your vote of confidence, I'm sure you won't need any armour!!

Can I also say that I believe some things said by other breeders may have been mis-interpreted and I can say from personal experience that they share our belief in only providing healthy animals of whatever morph to the hobby and uphold the highest husbandry standards and customer care and would not think about acting with anything but the utmost integrity.

This debate has rightly highlighted an important issue but has occasionally become a little emotive.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

YouTube - Nairobi: 23:18, 20/03/08

^^ Wasn't sure how to put a vid up on here but here's nairobi nearly an hour ago. Not the best example of her circling as she decided to go for a run in the end!


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Rainwater said:


> YouTube - Nairobi: 23:18, 20/03/08
> 
> ^^ Wasn't sure how to put a vid up on here but here's nairobi nearly an hour ago. Not the best example of her circling as she decided to go for a run in the end!


As i said to you in msn hun i personally dont think that as normal behaviour for a leo. 
If we were to place ours on the floor then the first thing they would do is look for somewhere to run to, even the tamest of our leos would do the same.
Anyone else have any ideas?


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

YouTube - Bell albino enigma with neurological problems


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> YouTube - Bell albino enigma with neurological problems


 
:notworthy:
:whistling2::whistling2:remember we are not to use the N word


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

sad


Young_Gun said:


> YouTube - Bell albino enigma with neurological problems





Rainwater said:


> YouTube - Nairobi: 23:18, 20/03/08
> 
> ^^ Wasn't sure how to put a vid up on here but here's nairobi nearly an hour ago. Not the best example of her circling as she decided to go for a run in the end!


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

havent read throught this all, wayyyyyyyy to long, sad lookinng at the films...

could it be somthign to do with balance?... inner ear and all?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> havent read throught this all, wayyyyyyyy to long, sad lookinng at the films...
> 
> could it be somthign to do with balance?... inner ear and all?


its possible gina yes but if it was inner ear then antibiotics would clear it up.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> could it be somthign to do with balance?... inner ear and all?


faith mentioned that before it could be worth talking to a vet to see what he could do in terms of having a look - not much though i suspect


----------



## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

hmmm the way they seem to ''not be there'' is very very similar to my brain damaged leo.. odd odd odd


----------



## Young_Gun (Jan 6, 2007)

Faith said:


> :notworthy:
> :whistling2::whistling2:remember we are not to use the N word


Just the name of the vid I found, nothin to do with me usin the 'N' word 

Odd that though, even people on youtooooob are callin it neurological.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Young_Gun said:


> Just the name of the vid I found, nothin to do with me usin the 'N' word
> 
> Odd that though, even people on youtooooob are callin it neurological.


Personally im not going to label what it is on isnt but it IS a problem


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

*My thoughts.*

Hello-

Sorry I am only now replying to this thread. I have been out of town with my family since early Monday morning and we just got home a few minutes ago.

First of all, I got a good bit of the posts read, but not all of them (forgive me, I have a lot of unpacking and catching up to do at home! 
Secondly, I want to make it very clear that I have never tried to cover up anything about Enigmas. Most of the Enigmas I have sold were produced by Mark Bell, who originated the morph (as far as I know anyway). Some seem to act weirder than others, as far as the circling etc. I have found that stress most certainly aggravates this. For instance, I have had a few customers (4) contact me after receiving their Enigma(s), and they were concerned that the geckos were going around in circles, tilting their heads, etc. In one of the cases, I sent my customer TWO Enigmas to replace the one because his was 65+ grams, the two I sent him as replacements were 25ish. I never heard another complaint. In the second instance I replaced the Enigma with another, I never heard another complaint. In the third instance my customer decided to keep the Enigma and see how it did after a few weeks; she ended up improving and as far as I know he is very happy with her. The fourth instance is recent and I am still discussing the issue with my customer. Please keep in mind that these are the only instances of this since the winter of 2006, when I started selling Enigmas for Bell.

I have always been up front with my customers about Enigmas but, frankly, I did not know much more about them than they did. My own theory is that Enigmas have a form of ocular albinism, which, in other animals, has been known to cause problems with *balance*. Over time, the animals brain can figure out how to compensate and it can act normally. As well, many never express any sort of difficulties at all, and act completely normal from hatching. One other thing to take note of is that I have not had *any *problems with my Enigmas feeding, losing weight, etc, no more than with any of my other gecko morphs, or leos in general. Furthermore, none of the people posting on this thread (that I know of) have contacted me personally about any of this, with the exception of Melanie (thank you by the way). She thought I should know that it was being insinuated that Mark Bell and I are involved in a cover up regarding neurological problems in the Enigma morph. It's not true. 

If anyone has any questions about the Enigmas, or anything else, I'd be glad to try and answer them. Sometimes I am kind of slow to reply, so it may take me a day or two. There is a lot more to my life than reptiles (thank goodness!) and I am pretty busy. Thanks for reading.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

Oh, just one more thing. I really wish if any of my customers in the UK (I know Nick, Pete and Sarah, Mark and Melanie bought from me, sorry if I missed anyone else) were unhappy with their geckos they would have said something to me about it. I am always more than willing to make things right for my customers, to the point of losing out financially myself. That's why I will never be as successful as Tremper, Bell etc, I actually care personally about my customers, and try to make them satisfied.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

Even one MORE thing LOL. I wanted to also mention the statement that someone wrote about the Enigma gene "tainting the leopard gecko gene pool" (I'm paraphrasing) because the trait would be "hidden in the hets". There is NO such thing as a Het Enigma. The Enigma trait is dominant, and when you hatch one, it is either an Enigma, or it isn't. The normal appearing, non Enigma siblings are NOT HETS. It works the same way as a Mack Snow, there is no such thing as a "Het Snow". The normal, non Enigma siblings are just that: normal, non Enigmas. They do not look like Enigmas, nor do they act like Enigmas. It sounds like someone may have given you some incorrect information about genetics(this is directed to the person that made the statement). Thanks again...


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Thanks for posting Kelli  I have no vested interest in the Enigma worries as I don't own one but I am fascinated by the possibility of an inherant genetic problem with the morph!

Have the geckos you have taken back off customers shown signs of improvement at all? Are there any other things you have noticed with them that maybe others haven't as yet?

(oh and welcome to RFUK)


----------



## PSGeckos (Jul 15, 2007)

KelliH said:


> Oh, just one more thing. I really wish if any of my customers in the UK (I know Nick, Pete and Sarah, Mark and Melanie bought from me, sorry if I missed anyone else) were unhappy with their geckos they would have said something to me about it. I am always more than willing to make things right for my customers, to the point of losing out financially myself. That's why I will never be as successful as Tremper, Bell etc, I actually care personally about my customers, and try to make them satisfied.


 
Thanks for your input Kelli, we are more than happy with ALL the gecko's we have purchased from you in the past


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

KelliH said:


> Even one MORE thing LOL. I wanted to also mention the statement that someone wrote about the Enigma gene "tainting the leopard gecko gene pool" (I'm paraphrasing) because the trait would be "hidden in the hets". There is NO such thing as a Het Enigma. The Enigma trait is dominant, and when you hatch one, it is either an Enigma, or it isn't. The normal appearing, non Enigma siblings are NOT HETS. It works the same way as a Mack Snow, there is no such thing as a "Het Snow". The normal, non Enigma siblings are just that: normal, non Enigmas. They do not look like Enigmas, nor do they act like Enigmas. It sounds like someone may have given you some incorrect information about genetics(this is directed to the person that made the statement). Thanks again...


It was me who suggested "tainting the gene pool" as you put it, and I'm aware of how the Enigma gene itself works...

I guess if you haven't read all of the posts, my point may not have made sense. I was suggesting a *second gene*, within the Enigma line, that is nothing to do with making an Enigma look like an Enigma, but causes the problems observed, or makes the gecko more susceptible to inner ear infections etc. This one *could* leave the line as a het, if it was recessive. It would explain the fact that not all Enigmas are affected by the problem, and that two apparently healthy parents (which all the breeders claim to have) could produce an affected baby (both parents being hets = ~25% affected babies) - does this tie in with the reports of problems that you have heard of Kelli? Are all of the "problem" babies related - siblings, cousins etc?

There was another suggestion earlier in the thread that the "problem" gene may be present in many non-Enigmas, but doesn't show itself. Some sort of "incompatibility" with the Enigma gene may cause problems. Genes don't just affect how an animal looks - they can act far more deeplt than that, so it's possible that whilst we can only see a colour / pattern change, inside the gecko there are other changes, which may or may not be compatible with other genes already in the genepool.

Andy


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

KelliH said:


> Hello-
> 
> Sorry I am only now replying to this thread. I have been out of town with my family since early Monday morning and we just got home a few minutes ago.


First of all welcome to RFUK



KelliH said:


> Some seem to act weirder than others, as far as the circling etc. I have found that stress most certainly aggravates this.


So it is then possible that stress can highten the possible condition that some enigmas have?



KelliH said:


> I have always been up front with my customers about Enigmas but, frankly, I did not know much more about them than they did.
> My own theory is that Enigmas have a form of ocular albinism, which, in other animals, has been known to cause problems with *balance*. Over time, the animals brain can figure out how to compensate and it can act normally. As well, many never express any sort of difficulties at all, and act completely normal from hatching.


So then it is also possible that as you have said your self you did not know much about the morph that there could be a problem within the genetics that could cause the signs some enigma owners are experiencing 




KelliH said:


> I am always more than willing to make things right for my customers, to the point of losing out financially myself. That's why I will never be as successful as Tremper, Bell etc, I actually care personally about my customers, and try to make them satisfied.


 
Im sorry but this above statment is incorrect are you trying to say that Ron Tremper and Mark Bell do not care about their customers and are not willing to put things right if something goes wrong?
I know for a fact in the whole 30 odd yrs RT has been producing geckos he never had one die in transit. If he did i can bet my house on the fact he would replace it!



Now for my own personal opinion, 
It has been said on your forum kelli and you posted saying that you were away on holiday so you were aware of the discussions going on about the enigma morph.

Not only that but a member of this forum stated that because all of you (meaning the breeders in the USA) had decided the signs in the enigma were nothing to worry about then that meant they were ok.

Why is it then not possible that if we decide differently then we are correct?

As for Ocular albinism i believe it is in an inherited condition in which the eyes lack melanin pigment, while the skin and hair show normal or near-normal coloration?

also there are 3 types
*Ocular albinism, type 1*, also known as Nettleship-Falls syndrome, is the most common variety of _ocular albinism_, which affects the eyes but generally not the skin or hair. OA1 is usually associated with nystagmus, and difficult to otherwise detect in females; males show more readily observable symptoms. There are several other identified types of OA, though researchers are not all agreed on the distinctions and classification. Most are caused by a mutation in a gene on the X chromosome and are x linked recessive traits. 

Which can cause 

*Strabismus* is a condition in which the eyes are not properly aligned with each other. It typically involves a lack of coordination between the extraocular muscles that prevents bringing the gaze of each eye to the same point in space and preventing proper binocular vision which may adversely affect depth perception. Strabismus can be either a disorder of the brain coordinating the eyes or a disorder of one or more muscles, as in any process that causes a dysfunction of the usual direction and power of the muscle or muscles.



If what you are saying is correct and im not going to get in to a debate if it is or is not as you have no proof (the same as we dont) 
Then all animals with this would run round in circles and not be able to hunt correctly as it effects their hunting skills because of the effect it has on their perception.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

HadesDragons said:


> It was me who suggested "tainting the gene pool" as you put it, and I'm aware of how the Enigma gene itself works...
> 
> I guess if you haven't read all of the posts, my point may not have made sense. I was suggesting a *second gene*, within the Enigma line, that is nothing to do with making an Enigma look like an Enigma, but causes the problems observed, or makes the gecko more susceptible to inner ear infections etc. This one *could* leave the line as a het, if it was recessive. It would explain the fact that not all Enigmas are affected by the problem, and that two apparently healthy parents (which all the breeders claim to have) could produce an affected baby (both parents being hets = ~25% affected babies) - does this tie in with the reports of problems that you have heard of Kelli? Are all of the "problem" babies related - siblings, cousins etc?
> 
> ...


Just a point Andy, we have clearly stated that our Female Enigma exhibits some of these behavioural problems and we have posted a link to a short video of her on this thread - so we are not all claiming that we have healthy pairs. 

I would also suggest that anyone who has said they do have healthy Enigma's actually *does* have healthy Enigma's - the word 'claiming' might lead some to believe you doubt their word - a more careful choice of words may be appropriate!

For what it's worth my opinion is as follows:

The fact is that no one seems to be able to identify the root cause. I believe that the morph will inherently continue to throw out occasional animals that display the traits discussed here and that it is something that may not be capable of being totally eradicated.

However, it is in my opinion no different or more extreme than the 'shaky head' syndrome thrown out in the Spider Royal Python morph which is still bred and used to make some exciting morphs. It is just that most of the 'shaky head' specimens don't (or shouldn't) find their way to the market.

I think the attitude taken in the US is far more pragmatic and they have no trouble selling healthy Enigma's - nor should they. It is up to us as responsible breeders to make the issue known to any potential buyers and let them make an informed decision.

If I can draw an analogy with humans with disabilities, blindness, heart problems or paraplegics for example (I might be getting into deep water here!!) - would we be having a similar debate?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> If I can draw an analogy with humans with disabilities, blindness, heart problems or paraplegics for example (I might be getting into deep water here!!) - would we be having a similar debate?


No considering we dont sell humans!
But i can bet my life of the fact that if it was possible to "out breed" those traits in humans every parent on the planet would try and do so
NO ONE wants an unhealthy baby!


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Faith said:


> No considering we dont sell humans!
> But i can bet my life of the fact that if it was possible to "out breed" those traits in humans every parent on the planet would try and do so
> NO ONE wants an unhealthy baby!


Faith, I think the point I was trying to get accross was that such people can produce perfectly 'normal' offspring'. Outcrossing in an attempt to eradicate these traits is exactly what we are trying to do as no one wants an unhealthy Enigma!! This selling issue has been dealt with I believe under this voluntary code.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Faith, I think the point I was trying to get accross was that such people can produce perfectly 'normal' offspring'. Outcrossing in an attempt to eradicate these traits is exactly what we are trying to do as no one wants an unhealthy Enigma!! This selling issue has been dealt with I believe under this voluntary code.


Yes nick they can produce "normal" looking offspring.
But in exactly the same way that humans are produced we can also have defects in our DNA when it is mixed with another DNA hence reproduction.

For example 2 normal looking parents can also produce an unhealthy offspring, because of genetics. 
If this is the case with humans then its the same in the animals kingdom why do you think there are now albino animals and reptiles in the wild?

EDIT 
If 2 humans dna is not compatible then they will produce unhealthy offspring, the only thing the said 2 humans would be able to do if find a different mate. 
Whats to say that the enigma gene is also not compatable with some of the other genes we use to create leopard geckos for example. 
The same way that you can not mix the 3 different types of albino and get albinos back.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Faith

All 'new' morphs need to be test bred to determine their compatiblity with other morphs - how else have we found out what is and isn't compatible today?

We owe a lot to those breeders who have done this over the years to give us the variety we have today.

The Enigma morph is no different. It is going through a learning stage and I am sure we still have much to discover about it.

My opinion about two posts ago encapsulates our opinion and I think is more than adequate for where we stand at the moment. We will act responsibly (as I'm sure the majority of breeders of whatever species do) and inform the hobby of the potential issues.

To propogate what is frankly conjecture and speculation does not do our community much good at all. This issue has rightly been highlighted - only medical examination and test breeding will give us any answers. This goes for any new morph or line bred traits (especially line bred!) not just Enigma's.

We refuse to get drawn into such disruptive speculation and have been totally transparent about how we are dealing with this issue - which frankly shoudn't have been necessary as we (along with others) consider ourselves responsible breeders despite some of the innuendo expressed in this thread.

We will continue to observe this thread but feel we have contributed as much as is possible - I doubt there is anything anyone can say (other than empical evidence) to advance this discussion any further.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Faith
> 
> All 'new' morphs need to be test bred to determine their compatiblity with other morphs - how else have we found out what is and isn't compatible today?


 
Which is exactly our point nick, the enigma *I* feel was not test bred enough before public release! 
As i said im not getting in to another debate about how genes work.


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Just a point Andy, we have clearly stated that our Female Enigma exhibits some of these behavioural problems and we have posted a link to a short video of her on this thread - so we are not all claiming that we have healthy pairs.
> 
> I would also suggest that anyone who has said they do have healthy Enigma's actually *does* have healthy Enigma's - the word 'claiming' might lead some to believe you doubt their word - a more careful choice of words may be appropriate!


I can assure you that my words were chosen very carefully indeed. I have not seen these healthy Enigma stocks, so at present it is just the word of the breeder. For me to say that they *do* have healthy Enigmas would be incorrect as I don't know that. To say that they have claimed to have healthy Enigmas is correct, as that's what they have done. I am not insinuating that breeders are lying about the health of their stock at all; I am just not stating their health as fact because I personally don't know it to be true. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted it.



nicklamb said:


> All 'new' morphs need to be test bred to determine their compatiblity with other morphs - how else have we found out what is and isn't compatible today?
> 
> The Enigma morph is no different. It is going through a learning stage and I am sure we still have much to discover about it.
> 
> To propogate what is frankly conjecture and speculation does not do our community much good at all. This issue has rightly been highlighted - only medical examination and test breeding will give us any answers. This goes for any new morph or line bred traits (especially line bred!) not just Enigma's.


As you said, the Enigma is still going through "testing", so shouldn't the public / buyers be aware of this? The idea of putting warnings etc on websites, and possibly the proposed CoP is great for buyers. However, whilst it's still being "tested", I think the more discussion, feedback and ideas about the morph that are going round the better. Surely everyone who owns an Enigma at the "learning" stage is inherently a part of the testing, so should be kept up to date with any new ideas and information regarding them? If ideas are constantly being thrown around, it will hopefully open up new ways of thinking and lead to other ideas, which may help find the cause of the problems sooner rather than later? Just my opinion of course...

Andy


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

"_It is up to us as responsible breeders to make the issue known to any potential buyers and let them make an informed decision."_

Andy

I refer you to my previous comment!


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> "_It is up to us as responsible breeders to make the issue known to any potential buyers and let them make an informed decision."_
> 
> Andy
> 
> I refer you to my previous comment!


Nick no one is forcing anyone to take part in the discussion about the enigma morph. 
If we feel as potential buyers that we would like to discuss it then why is that a problem?
I welcome debate in fact i quite like it 
humans question things so we can learn, bouncing ideas off each other is what we do to evolve and achieve.

With respect if you no longer wish to discuss the enigma morph then dont but there are others that are still curious and still want to find out a little more.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

KelliH said:


> Hello-
> 
> Sorry I am only now replying to this thread. I have been out of town with my family since early Monday morning and we just got home a few minutes ago.
> 
> ...


So Kelli,

Why are we two years into this and we are only seeing the reality of the enigma?
Also why is it only females where offered for sale?

Also how many more enigma's are going to be Culled???


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Considering we have been told not to post in the other thread as its nothing to do with the coc 
When people bred their enigmas could you please supply a list of what they were bred to and what i any symptoms were noted

For example any amount of light sensitivity, circling, non normal behaviour for a leopard gecko. 
No aim for catching food etc


----------



## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

Faith said:


> Considering we have been told not to post in the other thread as its nothing to do with the coc
> When people bred their enigmas could you please supply a list of what they were bred to and what i any symptoms were noted
> 
> For example any amount of light sensitivity, circling, non normal behaviour for a leopard gecko.
> No aim for catching food etc


 
as said on the other thread, enigmas were crossed to raptors, aptors, super hypos, mack snows, and i can't remember the other ones, as they wasn't my leos, i was just pairing them up, and cleaning, feeding, handling etc, 

none of the enigmas showed any unusual behaviour, and none of the resulting offspring showed any sighns, 
some were sold, and others were kept, and even now the babies are around a yr old now and are showing no sighns still and are very healthy and happy leos.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

NBLADE said:


> as said on the other thread, enigmas were crossed to raptors, aptors, super hypos, mack snows, and i can't remember the other ones, as they wasn't my leos, i was just pairing them up, and cleaning, feeding, handling etc,
> 
> none of the enigmas showed any unusual behaviour, and none of the resulting offspring showed any sighns,
> some were sold, and others were kept, and even now the babies are around a yr old now and are showing no sighns still and are very healthy and happy leos.


exelent news 
Did any of the siblings show any unusual behaviour?


----------



## NBLADE (Apr 11, 2007)

Faith said:


> exelent news
> Did any of the siblings show any unusual behaviour?


 
no, all seemed fine, all ate, with perfect aim, accuracy etc, and no unusual behaviour at all,


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

NBLADE said:


> no, all seemed fine, all ate, with perfect aim, accuracy etc, and no unusual behaviour at all,


Thanks for answering


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

It seems kelli is ignoring my questions strange :?


----------



## XGeckos (Oct 26, 2007)

Diablo said:


> It seems kelli is ignoring my questions strange :?


i realy don't think that kelli ignore you..and i really don't think that is strange that after a vacation somebody need to take time for check all business issue..
btw
i don't think that kelli is the kind of person that culled geckos only for have a wonderfull money season..
there are many breeders that usually do that, but i don't think that this is the case, and she is know like of the most reputable breeder in the gecko community

i really think that there are some problems with SOME enigmas and problably now we see more enigmas with problems because some NOT REPUTABLE BREEDERS has breed geckos that was better keep like pet only ...and they probably to that only for money..
this is the bad thing about enigma..money..

if there are people interested to understand why SOME enigmas act in circle will be better cooperate that try to "libel" this morph
nobody that take care of their animals whant to breed them at "ALL COST" 

is simple copy only few part of other geckos forum and don't copy many many posts of reputable breeders that has never noticed circle in their enigmas....


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

XGeckos said:


> i realy don't think that kelli ignore you..and i really don't think that is strange that after a vacation somebody need to take time for check all business issue..
> btw
> i don't think that kelli is the kind of person that culled geckos only for have a wonderfull money season..
> there are many breeders that usually do that, but i don't think that this is the case, and she is know like of the most reputable breeder in the gecko community
> ...


No one is saying that kelli has culled any leos it was a question. 

The reason the quotes from the other forum were copied was because the orignal poster has something wrong with her leo and asked if there was any other problems reported.


----------



## Golden Gate Geckos (Mar 21, 2008)

This is my first post on this forum. I have been breeding geckos for over 13 years, and I have seen just about every 'new' morph come from it's first introduction. Literally EVERY new morph introduced has it's issues and problems! There are some things we all need to consider, and I am going to be very candid...

Usually, the person(s) who developed the morphs were the first to introduce them. In my opinion, much of the time it was brought to market too soon, before their genetics were even fully proven. Case in point: Ron Tremper introduced the first Giants, and they were sold as a recessive genetic trait. People bought them up at a very high pricetag, and thought they could make 'het' Giants. Guess what? It was the other breeders that started working with the Giants that proved them out... and they were not recessive at all! They were co-dominant, which means there is no such thing as a 'het' Giant.

It's every breeder's dream to produce a 'new' genetic morph! Ron Tremper, Tim Rainwater, Mark Bell, and John Mack are very, very rich people now. There are a lot of 'wanna-be's" out there that are renaming existing morphs and combination morphs so they can have a slice of the fame and run to the bank with all the money. 

Mark Bell started selling the Enigma's (previously named Calico's) a l-o-n-g time ago. He didn't have a clue what they were, only that he could make a LOT of money marketing them. He put the project in Kelli's hands... which was smart on his part, because after all, *she* is the one that single-handedly proved out the Bell Albino an put the morph on the map for him!

The problem was, that Reptile Industries (Mark Bell) was still selling the Enigmas before Kelli had finished proving them. He was sending her boxloads of Enigmas to market for him, as well as selling them himself. When Kelli asked him what to do with the few that exhibited the circling and head waving behavior, he never did tell her.

When it was discovered that a few of the enigmas had so-called 'neurological' issues, there were already several other US breeders working with them, like JMG and A&M, to name a few. Some breeders were breeding the females at 35 grams so they could get them to the market sooner than others. 

Now, there are MANY US breeders working with this exciting new morph, myself included. Most of these breeders have exemplary ethics, responsibility, and a superior understanding of Leopard Gecko genetics. I have not the slightest doubt that any and all of the 'issues' that some of the Enigmas have exhibited will be addressed, just like they were addressed when the first RAPTOR's and Mack Snows were introduced. It wasn't the origninators of those morphs that did the work, it was the exceptional caliber of breeders that did it for them.

There will always be those that breed reptiles for the business and financial aspect of it. There are also the people to do it for the challenge of working with these exciting animals to unlock their genetic secrets. Then there are most of us who work with these beautiful, gentle creatures for the simple joy they bring us.

If we can all work together with respect and honesty, these geckos will become stronger and more robust with each generation.


----------



## Golden Gate Geckos (Mar 21, 2008)

> It seems kelli is ignoring my questions strange :?


My second post. 

Kelli just got home from Holiday. She has two websites and hundreds of geckos to take care of, as well as probably hundreds of emails and phone call to return. She may even need to go through her mail, pick up her dogs from the kennel, and water her plants. She even has a family! I doubt she is 'ignoring' your post... perhaps she simply has more important things to do than address your question at this moment?


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Golden Gate Geckos said:


> My second post.
> 
> Kelli just got home from Holiday. She has two websites and hundreds of geckos to take care of, as well as probably hundreds of emails and phone call to return. She may even need to go through her mail, pick up her dogs from the kennel, and water her plants. She even has a family! I doubt she is 'ignoring' your post... perhaps she simply has more important things to do than address your question at this moment?


Maybe Kelli has a lot more to do yes but they are questions that need answering still...........
Personally i think the UK breeders have moved passed this debating what the morph does or does not have wrong with it. 

If you havent already seen we are now talking about a code of conduct and a central database for ALL leopard geckos hatched in the UK 


Welcome to RFUK


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Golden Gate Geckos said:


> My second post.
> 
> Kelli just got home from Holiday. She has two websites and hundreds of geckos to take care of, as well as probably hundreds of emails and phone call to return. She may even need to go through her mail, pick up her dogs from the kennel, and water her plants. She even has a family! I doubt she is 'ignoring' your post... perhaps she simply has more important things to do than address your question at this moment?


More important than explaining the possible genetic defects in this blood line? If that is the case then obviously something isn't right I know if it was my morph I had worked on to reproduce I would be defending it left right and centre.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> I guess if you haven't read all of the posts, my point may not have made sense. I was suggesting a *second gene*, within the Enigma line, that is nothing to do with making an Enigma look like an Enigma, but causes the problems observed, or makes the gecko more susceptible to inner ear infections etc. This one *could* leave the line as a het, if it was recessive. It would explain the fact that not all Enigmas are affected by the problem, and that two apparently healthy parents (which all the breeders claim to have) could produce an affected baby (both parents being hets = ~25% affected babies) - does this tie in with the reports of problems that you have heard of Kelli? Are all of the "problem" babies related - siblings, cousins etc?


OK, I understand what you are saying. I was actually referring to the post that insinuated that normal appearing Enigma siblings could be carrying the gene for Enigma. They do not, just as a normal Mack Snow sibling does not carry the gene for Snow. There is no such thing as Het Snow, there is no such thing as Het Enigma. 

As far the Enigmas themselves, I think that all of them act a little different, just they look a little different, and some act more differently than others. I do not believe there is a second gene. Please understand that this season is really only my second breeding season with Enigmas, and I have only hatched one baby so far this year, so I am only a few months "ahead" of everyone else that has them. I was approached to market and sell Enigmas, which I did. These geckos would have been sold with or without my involvement, but I fell in love with the morph and could not turn down the chance. Believe me, I am having second thoughts about my decision now. :-(



> There was another suggestion earlier in the thread that the "problem" gene may be present in many non-Enigmas, but doesn't show itself. Some sort of "incompatibility" with the Enigma gene may cause problems. Genes don't just affect how an animal looks - they can act far more deeplt than that, so it's possible that whilst we can only see a colour / pattern change, inside the gecko there are other changes, which may or may not be compatible with other genes already in the genepool.


As I said before, I really do not think that there is a separate gene in play here at all, and again, I do not think that non Enigma siblings are carrying any hidden genes. Again, this is just my opinion, and I am basing that on the hundred or so offspring I produced from Enigma breedings last year.



> So it is then possible that stress can highten the possible condition that some enigmas have?


It does seem to do so sometimes, yes.



> So then it is also possible that as you have said your self you did not know much about the morph that there could be a problem within the genetics that could cause the signs some enigma owners are experiencing


Of course it is possible but all I can base my opinions on are what I myself have seen and experienced.



> Im sorry but this above statment is incorrect are you trying to say that Ron Tremper and Mark Bell do not care about their customers and are not willing to put things right if something goes wrong?
> I know for a fact in the whole 30 odd yrs RT has been producing geckos he never had one die in transit. If he did i can bet my house on the fact he would replace it!


'

I probably worded that wrong; I should have written that "9 times out of 10 I develop a *personal relationship *with my customers. I will never be as "big" and as successful as Tremper and Bell and etc., because I do not want to be". Does that make more sense now? Replacing a gecko that dies in transit has nothing to do with what I was talking about.



> It has been said on your forum kelli and you posted saying that you were away on holiday so you were aware of the discussions going on about the enigma morph.


Actually I was away for a few days and I *was not *aware of the discussions until late last night when I returned home and posted here.



> Not only that but a member of this forum stated that because all of you (meaning the breeders in the USA) had decided the signs in the enigma were nothing to worry about then that meant they were ok.


OK, but I never said that. I do not speak for all the US breeders and they do not speak for me. I personally feel that the Enigmas are a very new morph that needs a lot of outcrossing work done. I have said this all along. Like I stated above: the Enigmas would have been sold and out on the market whether I was involved in that or not. I like them, I think they are beautiful and fascinating, so I decided to become involved. 



> Why is it then not possible that if we decide differently then we are correct?


Why are you asking me this, I never said anything about that? I think that everyone, breeders, buyers, sellers should make their own personal choices about their animals, that's all.



> As for Ocular albinism i believe it is in an inherited condition in which the eyes lack melanin pigment, while the skin and hair show normal or near-normal coloration?


That pretty much describes the Enigmas to a T.



> If what you are saying is correct and im not going to get in to a debate if it is or is not as you have no proof (the same as we dont)
> Then all animals with this would run round in circles and not be able to hunt correctly as it effects their hunting skills because of the effect it has on their perception.


Yes, that is why I said that it is my *theory. *I am not a biologist or scientist, just a reptile breeder. I think that some Enigmas show more extreme behavior and some do not, but I think they are all the same genetically. Again, just my theory.



> Which is exactly our point nick, the enigma *I* feel was not test bred enough before public release!
> As i said im not getting in to another debate about how genes work.


Well if you want to go there then WHAT leopard gecko morph WAS test bred before public release? 



> If we feel as potential buyers that we would like to discuss it then why is that a problem?
> I welcome debate in fact i quite like it
> humans question things so we can learn, bouncing ideas off each other is what we do to evolve and achieve.


I don't have a problem with discussing it at all, I also feel that polite debate and discussion is a positive thing.



> Why are we two years into this and we are only seeing the reality of the enigma?
> Also why is it only females where offered for sale?


I'm not sure what you mean by your first question. The first Enigmas I got from Mark to sell came to me in the winter (December-January I think) of 2006-07. They have not been on the market for even two years yet. I think maybe you are asking why we are still finding out new things about Enigmas and my answer would be that they are a new morph and that as we work with them for longer we learn more about them. 

As far as why females only were offered for sale initially, that was a simple marketing thing. A male leo can breed with lots of females and produce lots and lots of babies, a female can only be bred to one male and produce not very many babies. If males had been released right away, the market would have been saturated in a few months. I was trying to protect the Enigma market for as long as possible.



> Also how many more enigma's are going to be Culled???


When did I say how many I had culled, or if I even did? You sure do a lot of assuming, don't you?



> It seems kelli is ignoring my questions strange


LOL Wow, you are something else. OK, please forgive me for not answering your questions in what you consider a timely manner (although it has only been a few hours). I happen to have just returned home late last night after being away for four days, and I do have just a *few* things to get caught up on at home. Even if I hadn't just returned from vacation, I do have a busy family life and do not spend a lot of my time in front of a computer. I just don't have time to do that.



> No one is saying that kelli has culled any leos it was a question.


He asked me "How many *more *would be culled", not of I had ever culled any. I believe the question should be: How many Enigmas has Kelli culled? The answer would be that there are a few here that I am not selling, (maybe 6) that are some of the original females from Mark. I am trying to decide what to do with them, should I do some test breedings etc. I really don't have the time to do that right now, although I really wish I did. Maybe I can set something up with another breeder that would have the time to do that, we'll see.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> More important than explaining the possible genetic defects in this blood line? If that is the case then obviously something isn't right I know if it was my morph I had worked on to reproduce I would be defending it left right and centre.


Oh my, then I guess you would defend a leopard gecko morph before caring for your child, caring for your dogs, caring for your geckos, caring for your other pets, unpacking from a 4 day road trip, opening a few days worth of mail, calling your parents, etc. and *oh yeah getting a few hours of sleep. *


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

Kelli thanks for taking the time to answer and being honest.

From what you are saying it would seem that Mark Bell would be able to provide some answers also?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

KelliH said:


> Oh my, then I guess you would defend a leopard gecko morph before caring for your child, caring for your dogs, caring for your geckos, caring for your other pets, unpacking from a 4 day road trip, opening a few days worth of mail, calling your parents, etc. and *oh yeah getting a few hours of sleep. *


If you can't handle it maybe your not cut of for this business like you have once said.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> If you can't handle it maybe your not cut of for this business like you have once said.


If I cannot handle what?


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

KelliH said:


> If I cannot handle what?


Handle this industry or was it business, I can not remember the qoute exactly.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

And BTW, how long have you been in this business? I see your banner states you are a Tremper distributor; how long have you been doing that and what did you do in the Herp business prior? I'm just trying to get a feel for who you are in relation to herpetoculture.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Diablo said:


> If you can't handle it maybe your not cut of for this business like you have once said.


 

daiblo that is bang out of order and you need to apoligise straight a\way fro that how dare try and disrespect one of the most influential and respected breeders in the gecko world shame on you i'm embrassed to actually sit here and read it ... that is the most unforgiving thing you have ever said:bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


----------



## Blazin (Mar 25, 2007)

I have to be honest and say that was out of order to put Diablo.


----------



## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Yet again im here. Please be polite to each other in this thread, or i am going to lock it.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

KelliH said:


> It does seem to do so sometimes, yes.


So it could be a problem made more visable by stress.




KelliH said:


> I probably worded that wrong; I should have written that "9 times out of 10 I develop a *personal relationship *with my customers. I will never be as "big" and as successful as Tremper and Bell and etc., because I do not want to be". Does that make more sense now? Replacing a gecko that dies in transit has nothing to do with what I was talking about.


Thanks 




KelliH said:


> OK, but I never said that. I do not speak for all the US breeders and they do not speak for me. I personally feel that the Enigmas are a very new morph that needs a lot of outcrossing work done. I have said this all along. Like I stated above: the Enigmas would have been sold and out on the market whether I was involved in that or not. I like them, I think they are beautiful and fascinating, so I decided to become involved.


I wouldnt of expected you to have said it or to speak for other breeders 




KelliH said:


> Why are you asking me this, I never said anything about that? I think that everyone, breeders, buyers, sellers should make their own personal choices about their animals, that's all.


I was asking for you opinion, 
If its a case of someone believing something because someone says so there there is also the possibility that they dont beileve it 




KelliH said:


> That pretty much describes the Enigmas to a T.


All enigmas? even the non red eyed?




KelliH said:


> Well if you want to go there then WHAT leopard gecko morph WAS test bred before public release?


Yes i do want to go there.

A fair few were test bred before relese and there are i believe a few being bred this year doing exactly that 
What i said was i PERSONALLY believe that the enigma was released to early




KelliH said:


> I don't have a problem with discussing it at all, I also feel that polite debate and discussion is a positive thing.


That comment was not aimed at you

Now if enigmas are only in there 2nd year of breeding what generation would be offered for sale this season?

Thanks for answering the other questions


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

I am appaled at the way this is going I'm afraid. All I can do is apologise to Kelli for they way you are being treated here - an utter disgrace to the rest of us on here and indeed the UK herping community.

Perhaps the Mods should review all of this?


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> Handle this industry or was it business, I can not remember the qoute exactly.


No no no, you replied to this post I made:



> Oh my, then I guess you would defend a leopard gecko morph before caring for your child, caring for your dogs, caring for your geckos, caring for your other pets, unpacking from a 4 day road trip, opening a few days worth of mail, calling your parents, etc. and *oh yeah getting a few hours of sleep.*


which was in fact a response to you being a bit critical that (in your opinion) I had not replied here quickly enough.

Your reply to my above quoted post was:



> If you can't handle it maybe your not cut of for this business like you have once said.


So I am asking you, if I cannot handle WHAT.

As far as me saying that maybe I was not cut out for this business, it is possible I did say that once when I had a lot of stuff going on personally and was under a lot of stress. You on the other hand really know nothing about me or my life, what I have been through and/or my ability to handle things. I have contributed a lot to our hobby, and I will continue to do so, whether I am still selling reptiles or not.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

KelliH said:


> And BTW, how long have you been in this business? I see your banner states you are a Tremper distributor; how long have you been doing that and what did you do in the Herp business prior? I'm just trying to get a feel for who you are in relation to herpetoculture.


Sorry if my comment offended you Kelli it was just a quote from what you said on another forum my appologys.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> I am appaled at the way this is going I'm afraid. All I can do is apologise to Kelli for they way you are being treated here - an utter disgrace to the rest of us on here and indeed the UK herping community.


It's ok Nick, I've been through worse than this, this is cake compared to other stuff. I appreciate your support. Thanks.


----------



## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I think certain individuals need to think about what they are posting before pressing submit as some people are already on their last chance.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Sorry if my comment offended you Kelli it was just a quote from what you said on another forum my appologys.


Now thats a first ive never seen one of those has anyone else?
lol


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

this convo really needs to be a bit more civil in all directions...this is to help the little enigmas remember?!


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> Sorry if my comment offended you Kelli it was just a quote from what you said on another forum my appologys.


Apology accepted. I don't believe I *ever* said I could not handle anything. I can handle things just fine, believe me. I probably did say I was not cut out for this business though. After being in it for so long, one does tend to think that once or twice, especially when there are other factors that are effecting one's life. It's ok, no worries and peace...


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

KelliH said:


> Apology accepted. I don't believe I *ever* said I could not handle anything. I can handle things just fine, believe me. I probably did say I was not cut out for this business though. After being in it for so long, one does tend to think that once or twice, especially when there are other factors that are effecting one's life. It's ok, no worries and peace...


I must of gotten the qoute mixed up sorry for that. So on the enigma issue do you honestly think there isn't anything wrong with the blood lines that cant be bred out? My main concern is the geckos because I personally and you probably wouldn't want to see defected leopard geckos.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Faith said:


> Now thats a first ive never seen one of those has anyone else?
> lol


yes in PMs lol


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> So on the enigma issue do you honestly think there isn't anything wrong with the blood lines that cant be bred out? My main concern is the geckos because I personally and probably wouldn't want to see defected leopard geckos.


I don't think they are "defective" per se. Like I said earlier, the Enigmas are different, and my opinion is that they are expressing a form of ocular albinism. If you look at the eyes of the non albino Enigmas, many have am amber color to them and ALL of the Enigma eyes are different. That is one reason why I am thinking it is ocular albinism or at the very least something else related to the eyes and vision. I have stated this from the beginning.

I just want to make something very clear. I care about the geckos very much. If I did not care I would not be posting here.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Oh gees, Diablo.

How many times have i told you not to post when you are talking on the phone.

You need to concentrate on what you type at the best of times, leave multi tasking to the ladies !

Glad to see you apologised, Kelli seems to me has been more than open with all she has said.

BTW, welcome to RFUK kelli, sorry its under such a situation.


----------



## HadesDragons (Jun 30, 2007)

KelliH said:


> I don't think they are "defective" per se. Like I said earlier, the Enigmas are different, and my opinion is that they are expressing a form of ocular albinism. If you look at the eyes of the non albino Enigmas, many have am amber color to them and ALL of the Enigma eyes are different. That is one reason why I am thinking it is ocular albinism or at the very least something else related to the eyes and vision. I have stated this from the beginning.
> 
> I just want to make something very clear. I care about the geckos very much. If I did not care I would not be posting here.


Would ocular albinism account for the circling behaviour that some people have reported seeing even when it's dark? Or for the apparent lack of co-ordination and unsteadiness seen in a video in darkness posted earlier? I'm no expert on reptile eyes, but to me that looks more like a problem with the inner ear or cerebellum, rather than a leo that just has eye problems. It looks like the leo can't get its balance quite right, and is on the verge of falling over at times, rather than not being able to see properly. A leo wouldn't use its eyes to guide its back feet around, but that one (especially at times in the light) looks like it's having trouble co-ordinating movement, including balance and placement of the back legs...

I personally think it's great that you're posting here welcome1: btw) - the more input from varied sources we can get, the more likely it will be that a cause / solution to the problem is found.

Andy


----------



## Golden Gate Geckos (Mar 21, 2008)

Hmmmmm.... Diablo and Faith, do you work with the Enigma morph? If so, for how long? Who did you get your Enigma's from?

I ask this because if you work with the Enigmas, and got them from Kelli, (or _most_ of the other US breeders), you would have been fully informed and disclosed of the small percentage of them that display some of the 'oddities' that a _few_ of them have. Then, you would have been able to make an _informed _decision on whether or not you chose to purchase and work with them, or chose not to.

We have a LOT to learn about this morph... as we did for EVERY OTHER new morph that has been introduced! Not one of the "Gecko Gods" that have been lucky enough to produce a random genetic mutation like the any of the albino strains, the Enigma, Mack Snow, RAPTOR, Murphy Patternless, Blizzard, etc. have EVER proved them out or ironed out the bugs in these morphs before they took them to market. NOT ONE OF THEM!!!

I'll tell you all right now, that Kelli, and several other breeders here in the USA, know _more_ about the morphs that were produced than the originator of the morph. There is no conspiracy. There are no secrets. Except by those that wanted your money MORE than they care about _you_ as a customer, and especially caring for the well-being of the geckos they produce.

For Christ's sake people... the Enigma is here, like it or not. Mark Bell sold them l-o-n-g before any ethical and reptuable breeder started working with them! The originators of these morphs wanted your money, and they got it... so now the rest of us are left with the responsibility of the aftermath of the mad rush to the bank. Why? Because we CARE about the geckos and the customers!

I came over to this side of the pond to express the TRUTH. It's very sad for me that this seems to be a witch-hunt, and a blame game. For me, it's about the geckos! None of the rubbish that's going on here will help them in any way. 

The Enigma is here. Let's try to put our heads together, and not bang our heads together. If you have anger and resentment toward anyone, it should be for the person(s) who took you money to the bank, and NOT towards the ones that are trying to make things right.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Golden Gate Geckos said:


> Hmmmmm.... Diablo and Faith, do you work with the Enigma morph? If so, for how long? Who did you get your Enigma's from?
> 
> I ask this because if you work with the Enigmas, and got them from Kelli, (or _most_ of the other US breeders), you would have been fully informed and disclosed of the small percentage of them that display some of the 'oddities' that a _few_ of them have. Then, you would have been able to make an _informed _decision on whether or not you chose to purchase and work with them, or chose not to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Marcia - a voice of reason which articulates very well the point we have tried to make throughout our contributions to this thread.


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

HadesDragons said:


> Would ocular albinism account for the circling behaviour that some people have reported seeing even when it's dark? Or for the apparent lack of co-ordination and unsteadiness seen in a video in darkness posted earlier? I'm no expert on reptile eyes, but to me that looks more like a problem with the inner ear or cerebellum, rather than a leo that just has eye problems. It looks like the leo can't get its balance quite right, and is on the verge of falling over at times, rather than not being able to see properly. A leo wouldn't use its eyes to guide its back feet around, but that one (especially at times in the light) looks like it's having trouble co-ordinating movement, including balance and placement of the back legs...
> 
> I personally think it's great that you're posting here welcome1: btw) - the more input from varied sources we can get, the more likely it will be that a cause / solution to the problem is found.
> 
> Andy


Hi Andy. 

I agree with all that you have said here. 

I have had different blind geckos over the years, and they still manage to walk in a straight and steadfast manner, until they walk into something, which then could have them a little off balance, but nowhere near as bad as what I have seen in the videos of the Enigmas, or any other type of gecko with some sort of problem affecting the brain in some way.

Maureen.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> Would ocular albinism account for the circling behaviour that some people have reported seeing even when it's dark? Or for the apparent lack of co-ordination and unsteadiness seen in a video in darkness posted earlier? I'm no expert on reptile eyes, but to me that looks more like a problem with the inner ear or cerebellum, rather than a leo that just has eye problems. It looks like the leo can't get its balance quite right, and is on the verge of falling over at times, rather than not being able to see properly. A leo wouldn't use its eyes to guide its back feet around, but that one (especially at times in the light) looks like it's having trouble co-ordinating movement, including balance and placement of the back legs...


I believe that it very well could account for the circling behavior. I think it has something to do with peripheral vision, and stereoscopic vision (both eyes seeing the same), and depth perception, and that this is what could be causing some of the circling. Some of the symptoms of Ocular Albinism are:

*photophobia* - excessive sensitivity to light

*strabismus* - a lack of coordination between the extraocular muscles that prevents bringing the gaze of each eye to the same point in space and preventing proper binocular vision, which may adversely affect depth perception

*nystagmus* - which can cause imbalance and vertigo

This is what is leading me to believe that Enigmas are Ocular Albinos.

I think that Enigmas are albinos, ocular albinos to be exact.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> I have had different blind geckos over the years, and they still manage to walk in a straight and steadfast manner, until they walk into something, which then could have them a little off balance, but nowhere near as bad as what I have seen in the videos of the Enigmas, or any other type of gecko with some sort of problem affecting the brain in some way.


Hi Maureen, ocular albinism is different than blindness, it can cause issues with balance, as well as depth perception.


----------



## monkeygirl (Mar 4, 2007)

Thank god Kelli and Marcia are here to talk some sence into people. Thank you so much! 

Its really great to have such influencial breeders on RFUK and I finally feel this thread has something to offer now. Its very interesting to hear your ideas Kelli since you perhaps know more than anyone else about this morph. 

Discussion is a good thing but in the end, it needs to be down to the informed buyers decision and ALL respectable breeders will have a good enough policy of their own. Its not as if you will get a nieve buyer willing to spend that amount of money on a gecko and NOT have done any reseach anyway, the information is clearly out there and responsible breeders will be passing any relevent information on to buyers anyway. I think most people who were considering an enigma knew about the enigmas special qualities long before this thread came about, this is nothing new, its been a hot topic for a while, a quick google search will show that. 

Im so sorry that this is your first experience of RFUK, most people on here are willing to listen to others opinions without jumping down their throats so i hope this doesnt deter you from hanging around as the advice of you two (Kelli and Marcia) will be greatly appreiated by all I am sure!

Thankyou for taking the time to add to this thread : victory:


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Hi Kelli. 

Thank you for pointing out out to me.  It will also enlighten others (no pun intended there)that now seem to be trying to say that it is only a bright lighting issue, and that the affected geckos are fine when kept in low light, or indeed in the dark, which is not the case at all.

Regards,

Maureen.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> Thank you for pointing out out to me.  It will also enlighten others (no pun intended there)that now seem to be trying to say that it is only a bright lighting issue, and that the affected geckos are fine when kept in low light, or indeed in the dark, which is not the case at all.


You're very welcome. 

I myself have not done any experimentation with lighting and Enigmas, so I cannot say whether it makes a difference in their behavior. I keep my Enigmas the same as all my other leos and they all eat, grow normally, and otherwise thrive.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

KelliH said:


> You're very welcome.
> 
> I myself have not done any experimentation with lighting and Enigmas, so I cannot say whether it makes a difference in their behavior. I keep my Enigmas the same as all my other leos and they all eat, grow normally, and otherwise thrive.


Hi Kelli

Many thanks for your contributions here, any empirical information we can provide to help improve our knowledge of this morph we will, just get in touch.

Personally we're very excited to be working with them and look forward to an interesting future.


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

Well thank you, and I want to also say that I hope that people do not assume Enigmas are defective. I know some Herpetologists that believe that Albino reptiles are defective and should not be reproduced. I do not agree with it.

Also, I would be very interested in hearing from Enigma owners that have problems with them eating. I have never had this problem with mine, but it could be because I feed mealies out of a dish. Just a thought I had. Thanks for reading.


----------



## Diablo (May 25, 2007)

monkeygirl said:


> Thank god Kelli and Marcia are here to talk some sence into people. Thank you so much!
> 
> Its really great to have such influencial breeders on RFUK and I finally feel this thread has something to offer now. Its very interesting to hear your ideas Kelli since you perhaps know more than anyone else about this morph.
> 
> ...


Sorry Monkeygirl but did you know that 85% of people that buy high end morphs have only been in the hobby for no more than 2 years.


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Sorry Monkeygirl but did you know that 85% of people that buy high end morphs have only been in the hobby for no more than 2 years.


Monkeygirl is thanking a highly respected experienced breeder and keeper of Enigma's for sharing their experience, so how what you a have just said contributes in any meaningful way beats me! This thread is finally getting some serious input and you bring it back down to your level - grow up.

What does it matter if the first animal someone buys is a high end morph or not FGS!!! I'm sure every buyer no matter how long they have been in the hobby reads up on what they are buying, like when you buy your first car (this may apply to women mostly I know :lol2: - Carrie's words not mine before I get shot down!!) you know nothing about cars....so you research it, ask the advice of those that have the knowledge so you know what you are paying for. 

I'm sure you get, as most of us do, tons of emails asking, whats this, how do i do that, what is the best substrate, etc etc and I'm sure you, like most of use try to provide the best advice and help we can. Care sheets etc

Just because someone is new to the hobby doesn't mean they cannot have whatever species or morph they should so desire regardless of price!! We all started some-where remember!!


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

nicklamb said:


> Monkeygirl is thanking a highly respected experienced breeder and keeper of Enigma's for sharing their experience, so how what you a have just said contributes in any meaningful way beats me! This thread is finally getting some serious input and you bring it back down to your level - grow up.
> 
> What does it matter if the first animal someone buys is a high end morph or not FGS!!! I'm sure every buyer no matter how long they have been in the hobby reads up on what they are buying, like when you buy your first car (this may apply to women mostly I know :lol2: - Carrie's words not mine before I get shot down!!) you know nothing about cars....so you research it, ask the advice of those that have the knowledge so you know what you are paying for.
> 
> ...


Nick it was a statment gees get of the soap box.
And in fact how can you sit there and say a morph is researched before people buy them, when on this thread a fair few have said they didnt know about the circling problems some enigmas have before they purchased.

Diablo was purely stating a statistic thats all and its a true one at that, both mel and ps geckos have enigmas yes?
They have both said at one time or another they have only been breeding 2-3 yrs so that speaks for its self!

He wasnt saying she was wrong for thanking Kelli he was saying she was wrong about leos being researched before buying a high end morph.
We have posts on here all the time from people not doing their research before getting an animal

Im not arguing on this thread any more and im really trying not to let my fingers move before my brain is in gear. 
but we have moved past this personal crap and being petty. 
it was a statment nothing personal just a statment!


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> Sorry Monkeygirl but did you know that 85% of people that buy high end morphs have only been in the hobby for no more than 2 years.


And you got this statistical fact from where? I have found it to be the opposite actually, that most people that buy high end morphs have been in the hobby for several years.

BTW, thank you MonkeyGirl.


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

KelliH said:


> And you got this statistical fact from where? I have found it to be the opposite actually, that most people that buy high end morphs have been in the hobby for several years.
> 
> BTW, thank you MonkeyGirl.


There are 2 breeders on this forum that have said they have only been breeding for 2-3 yrs, they already own enigmas 
There are also of those i know 3 breeders on this forum who own DB's.
Again they have only been breeding for 2-3 yrs.

If people have the money they will buy the high end morphs no matter how new they are to the hobby


----------



## KelliH (Mar 21, 2008)

> There are 2 breeders on this forum that have said they have only been breeding for 2-3 yrs, they already own enigmas
> There are also of those i know 3 breeders on this forum who own DB's.
> Again they have only been breeding for 2-3 yrs.


That's all good that you know 3 people that own high end morphs and that there are 2 people on this forum that own Enigmas, and those folks have been breeding for 2 or 3 years. However, Diablo posted a statistic. He stated that 85% of people that buy high end morphs have been in the hobby for two years or less. I was asking him where he got that statistic from. I have found my own experiences selling leopard geckos show the opposite, and most of my customers that buy expensive geckos have been in the hobby for several years. I was just curious as to how Diablo got that statistic, since my personal experience shows otherwise.


----------



## melanie (Jan 18, 2007)

Faith said:


> There are 2 breeders on this forum that have said they have only been breeding for 2-3 yrs, they already own enigmas
> There are also of those i know 3 breeders on this forum who own DB's.
> Again they have only been breeding for 2-3 yrs.
> 
> If people have the money they will buy the high end morphs no matter how new they are to the hobby


 
we are one of those breeders as stated above , when we decided to buy an enigma last year we did the research part of which was joining the geckosforumnet and looking at their findings as this is where you would find many of the top american breeders posting, we figured that as they had the enigma first any information would be there, not quite sure what the relevance is to how long you have been breeding as to what you buy, but at the end of the day you buy what you like surely.
The enigma was one of a few other morphs that we purchased from america and most were actually from kelli, we researched every one of them as you would with any new purchase regardless of cost or type.
we have been happy with all our buys and kelli has always been helpful and ready to answer the many questions we have emailed to her in the past.
we have every confidence in kelli and many other american breeders on her forum and will continue to buy from them, afterall they are the best at this game and have been doing it alot longer than all of us on here.: victory:


----------



## Golden Gate Geckos (Mar 21, 2008)

> 85% of people that buy high end morphs have only been in the hobby for no more than 2 years.


In order for statistical information to be valid, there must be hard data. To say that 85% of the people who buy high-end morphs have been in the hobby for less than 2 years without a large sum of data points, is simply an opinion. The more data points, the better the statistical analysis.

So, if you claim that the number is 85%... does than mean 85% of the people _you_ know? Is it 85% of the leopard gecko people here on this forum? Is it 85% of the people who keep leopard geckos? 85% of the people in the UK? Europe? Worldwide?

Besides that, what constitutes a "high-end" morph? It's price? It's rarity? For some, it could be an Enigma or a Diablo Blanco. For others, it might be a Mack Super Snow, or a SHTCTB. 

Bottom line, people buy the morphs they like, or the ones that have the best potential for their breeding projects... regardless of how long they have in the hobby.


----------



## DeanThorpe (Apr 9, 2006)

Must say [and i have been good and stayed out of what doesnt concern me for the most part] that I totally agree with the above few posts on the statistical stuff. [as in it needs backing up and explaining]


----------



## Faith (May 17, 2007)

Golden Gate Geckos said:


> In order for statistical information to be valid, there must be hard data. To say that 85% of the people who buy high-end morphs have been in the hobby for less than 2 years without a large sum of data points, is simply an opinion. The more data points, the better the statistical analysis.
> 
> So, if you claim that the number is 85%... does than mean 85% of the people _you_ know? Is it 85% of the leopard gecko people here on this forum? Is it 85% of the people who keep leopard geckos? 85% of the people in the UK? Europe? Worldwide?
> 
> ...


That would be 85% of the people we have spoken to that keep buy and breed leopard geckos in the last year. 

Mel yes you are one of the breeders in the above statment but not included in part about not researching the morph.


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

If I already owned a leopard gecko I wouldn't see the need to research further myself when buying another morph - it is still a leopard gecko and you come to presume that new morphs and old morphs alike have been checked for problems etc before being publically released?

Sorry - felt I had to say that lol


----------



## Golden Gate Geckos (Mar 21, 2008)

You know, I'm and old lady and have been breeding geckos for a l-o-n-g time. I have seen just about _every_ 'new' morph from it's introduction! Not one of these 'new' morphs was without it's initial issues. NOT ONE!!! 

It was never the _originator_ of these 'new' morphs that observed, disclosed, and worked on these issues... it was the fantastic breeders who took the challenge to work with these geckos that figured out what was _really_ going on with them, corrected it, and improved on it. 

We are messing with nature here, people! We are making morph creations that would probably never be made under natural circumstances, or at least not within our lifetimes. Nature has it's way of resolving genetic issues over time. But, we have stepped in as "Gecko Gods" and forced nature to produce these genetic deviations.

With that, comes the responsibility to figure out just what we did, and how we are going to fix it. So far, we have done a fantastic job of repairing the damage we have created, and been able to produce healthy and robust morphs from weak and non-thriving genetic abominations.

I am not trying to cast judgment here... I am a leopard gecko breeder, too! All I am trying to say is, that every single 'new' genetic creation we have forced unnaturally on these geckos had it's own inherent set of problems. The caliber of breeders we have today, complete with genetic savvy and exemplary ethics, have collectively strived to improve on what has been created... and done a bang-up job at it to say the least!

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the Enigma is no exception. I can hardly wait to see how this exciting and unique 'new' morph develops over the next few years in the hands of some of the finest Leopard Gecko Breeders in the world.


----------



## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

that was an exceptional post marcia..

my sadness about it comes from the fact we continue to breed affected animals of any kind,.. mammals... reptiles etc to the point we need to perform a clean up operation every year to cleanse the health issues out of new colourways..

this seems a really sad and damaging way to deal with nature


----------



## arkreptiles (Sep 26, 2007)

Golden Gate Geckos said:


> You know, I'm and old lady and have been breeding geckos for a l-o-n-g time. I have seen just about _every_ 'new' morph from it's introduction! Not one of these 'new' morphs was without it's initial issues. NOT ONE!!!
> 
> It was never the _originator_ of these 'new' morphs that observed, disclosed, and worked on these issues... it was the fantastic breeders who took the challenge to work with these geckos that figured out what was _really_ going on with them, corrected it, and improved on it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this post Marcia - you are right that we as breeders have taken up the challenge to work with this morph.

We do have an 'affected' female and are currently researching for the best reptile opthalmologist with the help of PS Gecko's. We will then submit her for genetic testing to help us better understand the nature of the condition.

We are also corresponding with two breeders in the US. Ron tremper for example has acquired an Enigma and is commencing his own testing programme as he feels it has tremendous potential. We have also advised him of the actions we are taking in terms of both test breeding and the medical tests we wish to carry out and asked that we share our information.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Calling into some new vets next month, got a whole list to visit. Also going to catch up with a keeper on my induction @ London Zoo.

Thinking of ringing round some vets and stuff to see if any of them have an interest in neuro'...wish me luck


----------



## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Rain - have you contacted Liverpool university yet? The reptile guy there is amazing and they are usually extra helpful 

I know there was a link for the contact details on LF but can't seem to find my list


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

brittone05 said:


> Rain - have you contacted Liverpool university yet? The reptile guy there is amazing and they are usually extra helpful
> 
> I know there was a link for the contact details on LF but can't seem to find my list


OoO didn't even know there was a guy at Liverpool uni!! Will definitely look for the details...thanks sweetie!


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

is it this one?

_Contact Details:

F.A.O. Dr Udo Hetzel
Faculty of Veterinary Science,
University of Liverpool,
PO Box 147
Liverpool, L69 3BX

0151 794 4797

__[email protected]_


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

sparkle said:


> that was an exceptional post marcia..
> 
> my sadness about it comes from the fact we continue to breed affected animals of any kind,.. mammals... reptiles etc to the point we need to perform a clean up operation every year to cleanse the health issues out of new colourways..
> 
> this seems a really sad and damaging way to deal with nature


Said from the heart Sparkle, and who better to say it than yourself that knows the despair, pain and frustrations of life due to having neuro problems yourself, bless you. I agree with every word there. 'hug'

I find it hard to believe that people are willing to continue interfering with nature, when they get to witness such sadness as is the case with some poor creatures, which are then doomed one way or another. How is it excusable to continue causing torture to such creatures that can't defend themselves against us sometimes very cruel humans? How many have to suffer before the problem is solved, if ever? 

I have a hard time believing that 'animal lovers' can continue this trend. I do understand the need sometimes at higher levels to run tests, but in the name of just trying to get a new man made morph as near to perfect. No. No way can I see how that is in any way able to be justified. 

I think I should try to stop reading here, as my personal feelings as an animal lover and carer are just to strong, and I find this type of thread hurts me deep down inside. 

Maureen.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Meko said:


> is it this one?
> 
> _Contact Details:
> 
> ...


You're fast!! Nice one Meko x


----------



## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

lol, i knew i'd seen it on here before so 'post mortem liverpool' did the trick in the search and only had 2 threads to look through.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

> I have a hard time believing that 'animal lovers' can continue this trend. I do understand the need sometimes at higher levels to run tests, but in the name of just trying to get a new man made morph as near to perfect. No. No way can I see how that is in any way able to be justified.


Sorry, but what part of all this is 'man made' ?

As far as I am aware, there has been no genetic engineering done which has resulted in any new morphs.

All the morphs are, to the best of my knowledge, a coming together of genetics found naturally within the geckos.

Whilst its maybe true that mankind has facilitated this coming together, he has not 'made' these genetics.

Would the same sentiment apply when two different human races meet and marry and have children? Is the child of a coloured woman and a white man some kind of genetic mutation, a man made genetic time bomb that we should outlaw?

Sorry if anyone takes offence to that analogy, but its morally the same is it not?

Its strange how this has almost gone full circle, from outright condamnation for the idea there may be a problem to we should all stop breeding because its so bad.


----------



## Golden Gate Geckos (Mar 21, 2008)

purejurrasic said:


> As far as I am aware, there has been no genetic engineering done which has resulted in any new morphs. All the morphs are, to the best of my knowledge, a coming together of genetics found naturally within the geckos.


Yes, this is partially true. However, the odds of a genetic mutation occurring in nature such as those WE have 'created', are almost impossible. In the wild, the different leopard gecko species and sub-species rarely cross each other's paths due to geographic limitations. 

We _have_ engineered these morphs genetically! We know what simple recessive, co-dominant and dominant genes are. We are the ones that have created the hets, and double and triple hets, and created polygenic and combination morphs. You would never see a naturally occurring leopard gecko morph that is a homozygous dominant AND recessive genotype... like a Mack Super Snow Tremper Albino.


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Hello Marcia, and thank you for your post, and from one old Lady to another, thanks for not taking offense at my words. :no1:

I admit my words came straight from the heart. 

I started out as a hobbyist, then went on to breeding big time, and in the course of that time imported many wild caught reptiles, and saw many sights that sickened me. I had plenty of different morphs then too, and in those years saw many deformed hatchlings, due to the fact that much was still a learning curve. I went on from that to run a full time rescue centre for 2 decades, and am in the process now of running it down due to my health and age. I know many of my friends still breed the different morphs out there, and some come against problems. I used to work along side vets too, so saw breeding disasters there too. I am not meaning to pick on anyone here, but for me I can't do it, or accept it as I see the pain in each little creature that does not turn out perfectly normal . Its one of the reasons why I gave up breeding. I turned to full time rescue. I had to follow my thoughts and feelings, and have noted that these feelings have become much stronger now as I age.

Kind Regards Marcia, and wishing you all the best for the future,

Maureen.


----------



## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

purejurrasic said:


> Sorry, but what part of all this is 'man made' ?
> 
> As far as I am aware, there has been no genetic engineering done which has resulted in any new morphs.
> 
> ...



Tony, 

I won't take this issue up with you on a personal level here, but will be more than happy to discuss this face to face one Wednesday evening. I am well over due in catching up with a couple of friends of mine on your committee, along with some members as well, so will look forward to chatting to you and them then. 

As this thread has almost fizzled out now, perhaps you could just tell me if Liz Davies is married to conservationist Chris Davies, another good friend of mine.

Thanks in advance,

Maureen.


----------



## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

Your always welcome to pop into one of our meetings, I am sure all your friends will be only to pleased to see you, and dare say you would make a few new ones too.


----------



## Rainwater (Apr 18, 2007)

Update:

Nairobi is going to get her EYES looked at next week.


----------

