# Rottie attack.. your thoughts



## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

As many of you have probably seen on the news about the one year old boy killed by a rottie, how do you feel about the rottie being put down straight away?


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

Unfortunatly, once a dog has shown that it will do that, i dont think the risk can be left, and so it has to be destroyed.


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

Snakes r grreat said:


> Unfortunatly, once a dog has shown that it will do that, i dont think the risk can be left, and so it has to be destroyed.


I agree but i believe that you shouldn't leave any child alone with any dog... even if the dogs a yorkie and lovely... you never know and you must supervise any contact between child and dog.


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm a bit on the fence with this one really, I can see both sides..

As a 3 month old baby I was attacked by a collie (lassie exact look alike of all dogs!) because my mother who had reared the dog from a pup, had started ignoring the dog when I was born, and it was pure jealousy. I needed over 40 stitches as I was effectively "scalped", and it was only because the dog tore the skin off my head as opposed to biting in deep that I survived, and I am very fortunate it was the back of my head and the scars are covered by my hair... if it had been my face I would be scarred for life. If it had been a rottweiler and not a lassie dog, would the dog have been labelled aggressive from the start?

My mother blamed herself - she neglected the dog, she caused the jealousy, she didn't notice the signs, and she didn't work to counter this. He was rehomed to an elderly couple, walked with a muzzle, and was never allowed around children again. He lived another 10 years and my mother visited him every week. Dogs can snap just like people can and there's often reasons behind it that could have prevented it.

On the other hand sometimes you do get an aggressive dog and there's not a lot you can do about it, I can understand why when facing such a huge loss of their child and considering the safety of others, someone would take the action to have the dog put down.

From a personal point, I don't blame the dog for my scars, my mother doesn't blame him - had I died, I still don't think she would have blamed the dog.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

the dog had to be destroyed really, sad fact, I recon theres more to it than what we know at the moment, the family said he had never shown any signs of aggression or that he was dangerous at all, but I recon there must of been something that made the dog do it.


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

SiUK said:


> the dog had to be destroyed really, sad fact, I recon theres more to it than what we know at the moment, the family said he had never shown any signs of aggression or that he was dangerous at all, but I recon there must of been something that made the dog do it.


exactly... there must be a reason for a dog to attack any thing.... but even if it hadn't shown signs i still would never leave a dog alone with a child. When we visited friends at christmas with their small children I didn't even let my puppy border out of my sight with them. He was fine with them but even so he can snap and has at me, so i don't completely trust him with kids.


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## iguanaman2442 (Mar 9, 2007)

I agree the dog shoud not have been left alone with the child then again what is a 13 month child doing on its own anyway. I do think that the dog should have been put down though at the end of the day the dog could have got out and hurt somebody else. There was a dog got out up here only a couple of days or so ago and attacked 2 young girls not life threatening but serious injurys to hands and arms of both girls will be scared (spelling) for life 

Rob


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

the child wasnt on its own it was being held by a 7 year old girl and the babies aunty was there as well, thats what I read yesterday.


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

i think this is another case of people humanising their dog. It IS a dog and they cant exactly blame it. its not like it planned its attack. something has made it snap. As said before NO dog should be left with children as this is a prime example of what can happen. 
But these people have made the mistake most of us do. forgetting that, at the end of the day, its an animal. No matter how domesticated you think an animal is, it always has the potential to snap. 
i trust my dog completely, but he still wont be left alone with my baby. As it has been pointed out even dogs get jealous. 
i feel so sorry for this poor family and for the loss of their child, but at the end of the day, a dog is a dog and it shouldnt have been left with the kid.


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

SiUK said:


> the child wasnt on its own it was being held by a 7 year old girl and the babies aunty was there as well, thats what I read yesterday.


Still, a 7 year old girl cant exactly be expected to handle a situation such as this. And i though the aunty was up the stairs or something?


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## Snakes r grreat (Aug 21, 2006)

gecko-kus said:


> I agree but i believe that you shouldn't leave any child alone with any dog... even if the dogs a yorkie and lovely... you never know and you must supervise any contact between child and dog.


 
Your right there, my mum has a yorkie, he acts like a baby with any adult, but we never leave him alone around children just in case. 

After what happened a couple of years ago at the same time of year, you would think some people would learn.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I dont know where the aunty was all I know is it said that she tried to get the baby from the dogs mouth.


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

SiUK said:


> I dont know where the aunty was all I know is it said that she tried to get the baby from the dogs mouth.


it's horrible to picture that.... i wouldn't wish it on anyone, but people don't seem to learn from these terrible things.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

gecko-kus said:


> As many of you have probably seen on the news about the one year old boy killed by a rottie, how do you feel about the rottie being put down straight away?


 
I think the owners and the childs parents are the ones that should be put down :whip: who in their right mind would leave a child of any age alone with any large breed dog ????? Its just plain idiotic 

So now yet another dog looses its life and breed gets a worse name because of the stupidity of humans 


rant over sorry lol


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Extremely sad and tragic case yet again.......what I also get annoyed with is the law itself.....if a dog attacks a human, it's put down, but when a dig attacks another dog the law does nothing, I'm not saying I want dogs putting down, far from it....but it is a sad fact the the powers that be STILL do not see animals on the terms as they would a human life ......

I think a very common mistake people fall on is that they see a particular dog and go 'oohh i like that one' but they do not really know anything as such about the actual breed of dog they are wanting or getting, and one thing that annoys the hell out of me is that you get the stronger breeds and the breeds that were bred for specific purposes many years ago in a household where people think it's cool to play the sort of games that may well bring out the dominant or even aggressive side of the dog as people cannot read potential signs....they just think its fun at the time not realising that they are teaching the dog that dominance or aggression is rewarded........

Not saying this is the case here, as I know nothing about the facts of this case, other than it is very sad and tragic and would not wish this upon anybody......

Rant Over


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## mark elliott (Feb 5, 2007)

I think a very common mistake people fall on is that they see a particular dog and go 'oohh i like that one' but they do not really know anything as such about the actual breed of dog they are wanting or getting, and one thing that annoys the hell out of me is that you get the stronger breeds and the breeds that were bred for specific purposes many years ago in a household where people think it's cool to play the sort of games that may well bring out the dominant or even aggressive side of the dog as people cannot read potential signs....they just think its fun at the time not realising that they are teaching the dog that dominance or aggression is rewarded........


you've said it all really


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## leggy (Jan 18, 2007)

we have a rotty and a german shepherd as well as lurchers etc any sign of aggression from any dog and its out the door.not sticking up for big breeds but you never hear about the collies, jack russels and labradors etc that bite people ive only ever got bit by a dog and that was a jack russel when i was a kid.


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

ANY breed, no matter how big or small has to potential to be naughty and aggressive, whether its a yorkie, poodle, or lab or bullmastiff etc etc......if you don't channel the dogs energy in the correct way then I'm afraid your already on the way in setting up for a fall.......I agree, you tend to hear about the larger, stronger breeds on the news but the smaller breeds can be just as bad, but because of their appearance people overlook it or for soem reason find it funny......oh dear


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## iguanaman2442 (Mar 9, 2007)

Well said the most aggresive dog i have ever met was a lil chiwawa (rubbish at spelling lol) and belive me it would have had your throat if it was big enough very aggressive little dog


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

it's usually the case that small dogs have short man syndrome and are much more aggressive than larger dogs as they have to stick up for themselfs.


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## tombraider (May 6, 2006)

My mum used to own a few of those yorkies with attitudes. Grumpy little things that liked to growl when i sat on the settee next time them. They never actually bitten though, most of it was for show. I think the difference is, even if they did go to bite, it would have only took a flick on the chin and they would have run off were a rottie or another large breed dog is going to keep shaking its victim until its dead.


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## gwinni (Oct 8, 2007)

Its a shame 4 th family but theres no bad dogs only bad owners as far as im concerned!I agree with wat uv all wrote bout th kid bein lft on its own wi th dog n also if it had never shown any sign of doin it b4 y did it suddenly do it now!But if it had never shown aggression b4 then y put it dwn straight away it surely coulda bin rehomed wiout children n bin muzzled in public!I love big dogs n at some point would like a rottie,bullmastiff or rodesian ridgeback not coz they look hard but coz i think theyr stunnin lookin dogs but i would make sure that it was socialised properly n i also dnt think that theres nythin wrong wi playin rough wi em!Iv got a staffie X collie n i play fight wi him but he nos wen 2 stop n calm dwn if he gets 2 rough then th game stops n i blank him but hes not aggressive in ny way hes soft as poo!police dogs r trained 2 b aggressive n yet they can live in a house wi kids n r more safe than most pet dogs as they hav an off switch where as a pet dog thats aggressive doesnt!Sorry 4 such long post!


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## gazza45 (Nov 14, 2007)

its the people that own these dogs that are the :censor: problem not the dogs !! no child should be left alone with any dog not just rotties or pit bulls etc.:cussing::cussing::cussing:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Well said im a single mum with 4 dogs and my 7yr old NEVER gets left alone with any of my dogs..................i know they wouldnt hurt him but still not the point i wouldnt even consider leaving him alone with them!


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

As for playing rough, yeah its all good when your dog knows that your in charge aka the pack leader, but what I meant was there may be some instances when the pack leader is not there, or the dog is with someone else and possible in different environment, all MAY, not def, have a contributing factor to any undesirable behaviour......not haveing a go at you personnally, but there are people out there that play rough or play the tug games etc with their dogs and rather than the game finishing with the owner taking the tug toy etc away from the dog they instead give into the dog cos their gettin tired etc......THIS in itself empowers the dog from a DOMINANCE perspective and people do not realise this......if dominance is not dealt with and left to fester, then it may well turn into aggression..........so yes I agree its ALL down to owners in the upbringing and guidance they give to there pooches (nearly forgot to add this bit)

cheers



gwinni said:


> Its a shame 4 th family but theres no bad dogs only bad owners as far as im concerned!I agree with wat uv all wrote bout th kid bein lft on its own wi th dog n also if it had never shown any sign of doin it b4 y did it suddenly do it now!But if it had never shown aggression b4 then y put it dwn straight away it surely coulda bin rehomed wiout children n bin muzzled in public!I love big dogs n at some point would like a rottie,bullmastiff or rodesian ridgeback not coz they look hard but coz i think theyr stunnin lookin dogs but i would make sure that it was socialised properly n i also dnt think that theres nythin wrong wi playin rough wi em!Iv got a staffie X collie n i play fight wi him but he nos wen 2 stop n calm dwn if he gets 2 rough then th game stops n i blank him but hes not aggressive in ny way hes soft as poo!police dogs r trained 2 b aggressive n yet they can live in a house wi kids n r more safe than most pet dogs as they hav an off switch where as a pet dog thats aggressive doesnt!Sorry 4 such long post!


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## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

labmad said:


> Extremely sad and tragic case yet again.......what I also get annoyed with is the law itself.....if a dog attacks a human, it's put down, but when a dig attacks another dog the law does nothing, I'm not saying I want dogs putting down, far from it....but it is a sad fact the the powers that be STILL do not see animals on the terms as they would a human life ......


The fact is an animal is just that and shouldn't even be considered near that of a human life.



> Its a shame 4 th family but theres no bad dogs only bad owners as far as im concerned!


I don't agree with that comment either. My Nan used to keep 3 labradors, all were kept the same, fed the same, slept together and my Nan showed no particular dog any favouritism. Honey and Mikey were well mannered and always submissive but Sam was a loose cannon and would bite and snap just because he could.


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## The Wanderer (Sep 14, 2007)

Once a dog has shown marked agression it is not safe. Having said that, the dog was kept outside all the time and this will have the same effect on it's temperament as a dog kept solely for guarding a scrap yard or farm. I don't think young kids should ever be left in a situation where this kind of tragedy can occur. Any dog is capable of biting, but if it is one of the tenacious guarding breeds, the consequences can be catastrophic and tragic.


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

I would never leave a child alone with a dog. I am a bit wary of a rottweiler when I walk past them, so much so I might move away as much as possible when I have to go past. Its different with small breed dogs as they cant get me to the ground and kill me. Still I wouldnt leave my son in a room with dogs of any size. They all have the potential to do damage.

I dont think I would ever own a large breed dog. Not something that could pull me over just when on a walk anyway!

Its wrong that the 2 children were left alone downstairs, especially with a dog around the place.


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Mark75 said:


> The fact is an animal is just that and shouldn't even be considered near that of a human life.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree with that comment either. My Nan used to keep 3 labradors, all were kept the same, fed the same, slept together and my Nan showed no particular dog any favouritism. Honey and Mikey were well mannered and always submissive but Sam was a loose cannon and would bite and snap just because he could.


So your telling me that if your out walking your dog and it gets attatcked by another dog badly then you would not be as worried about it as you would your own flesh and blood.......yeah I agree they are animals and we should not humanise but long gone I'd hoped when people view their dog as ' oh it's only the dog'..............

As for the lab who bit because 'it could'.....nah mate, dogs don't think like that, it bites for a reason......only you or the family will know the reason unless you fail to read the signs mate 

cheers


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

all of these dog attacks i've been seeing on the news for the last few years....what a waste.......but the aggressive dog has to be put down...that's automatic here. the aspca takes care of that. besides, if they didn't, the victim's family would and that would be even worse. you can't trust any dog that has shown unprovoked aggression. just what i feel.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

labmad said:


> So your telling me that if your out walking your dog and it gets attatcked by another dog badly then you would not be as worried about it as you would your own flesh and blood.......yeah I agree they are animals and we should not humanise but long gone I'd hoped when people view their dog as ' oh it's only the dog'..............
> 
> As for the lab who bit because 'it could'.....nah mate, dogs don't think like that, it bites for a reason......only you or the family will know the reason unless you fail to read the signs mate
> 
> cheers


I agree with that all dogs hear when we talk to them is blah blah blah they only learn to understand words that are used often...........I also agree for a dog to attack viciously then there has to be a good reason for that too! my dogs are big an crazy but far from vicious i know myself for one of my dogs to ever bite anyone they would have to have a very good damn reason for it !


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## Mark75 (Jan 21, 2007)

labmad said:


> So your telling me that if your out walking your dog and it gets attatcked by another dog badly then you would not be as worried about it as you would your own flesh and blood.......yeah I agree they are animals and we should not humanise but long gone I'd hoped when people view their dog as ' oh it's only the dog'..............
> 
> As for the lab who bit because 'it could'.....nah mate, dogs don't think like that, it bites for a reason......only you or the family will know the reason unless you fail to read the signs mate
> 
> cheers


Your exact words were


> but it is a sad fact the the powers that be STILL do not see animals on the terms as they would a human life ......


To me that statement reads that animals should be on equal footing as humans.



I've known people that breed dogs (well whippets, long legged rats to me) and a dogs 'personality' (another humanising term) differs from one dog to another.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

It happened for a reason dogs don't fly in to a rage for the sake of it. What ever that reason was it will never be published so we will never know. However expect a lot more of these sotries because the press will go nuts to make an issue of it now.

Me and my rottie will be in hiding.

Marina


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes mate, but you need to read the full bit and not just pick the last part out.........what I am saying is that when a person is mauled it's not looked upon in the same light if your dog is mauled.......speaking from personal experience with dogs I have seen being mauled by another out in the park etc and you speak to the owners of the injured dog, you asked what happened after talking to the necessary people.....the normal response is, 'did you get attacked/bitten' etc.......then they answer 'No', then the authority person does not take any futher action......this in itself to me is stating that it is viewed in a different light......to me that is WRONG :crazy:



labmad said:


> Extremely sad and tragic case yet again.......what I also get annoyed with is the law itself.....if a dog attacks a human, it's put down, but when a dig attacks another dog the law does nothing, I'm not saying I want dogs putting down, far from it....but it is a sad fact the the powers that be STILL do not see animals on the terms as they would a human life ......


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

the press are all too quick to jump on stories like this and label all large breeds as bad... whereas in the metro a few months ago there was a story about a jack russel that lost its life protecting two kids from an attack from two pitbulls... i think it was in new zealand.... bad news is better than good in the presses eyes


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

a dog may bite for a reason...big deal!....murderers kill innocent people for a reason.....they all have reasons.....usually very twisted ones. who care what a dog thinks?...i'm a big dog fan but i wouldn't hesitate to blow one away if it attacked someone. even dogs protecting property IMO are ticking time bombs. and yes, nearly always aggression is the owners fault and to be fair, both have to pay....too bad the dog has to pay a much bigger price than the owner. no one ever wins in these situations, all parties suffer. here we have pit bull attacks all the time and it's always the owners at fault. but you have to look at all the dead and maimed kids and adults.........aggressive dogs are unacceptable....just my opinion.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

gecko-kus said:


> the press are all too quick to jump on stories like this and label all large breeds as bad... whereas in the metro a few months ago there was a story about a jack russel that lost its life protecting two kids from an attack from two pitbulls... i think it was in new zealand.... bad news is better than good in the presses eyes


 
Thats so true its always the bad stuff that are published never the good stuff


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

gecko-kus said:


> I agree but i believe that you shouldn't leave any child alone with any dog... even if the dogs a yorkie and lovely... you never know and you must supervise any contact between child and dog.


Hay a yorkie is nothing alike a rottie, a rottie can get huge and can be agressive, alot are, so you maybe able to leave a yorkie with a child, but a rottie...:bash:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

snakelover said:


> Hay a yorkie is nothing alike a rottie, a rottie can get huge and can be agressive, alot are, so you maybe able to leave a yorkie with a child, but a rottie...:bash:


see thats where these silly accidents tend to happen people underestimating what dogs are capable of just cos its a small dog dosnt mean that its any safer to be left with than a large dog:bash:


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

snakelover said:


> Hay a yorkie is nothing alike a rottie, a rottie can get huge and can be agressive, alot are, so you maybe able to leave a yorkie with a child, but a rottie...:bash:


but even with a small dog if it were to bite a kid it will most likely give the child a fear of dogs in the future.... and it shouldn't matter what size the dog is whether it's a great dane/rottie/jack russel/yorkie a child shouldn't be left alone with a dog, just in case.... that's just my opinion.


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Yep agree matey, aggressive dogs are unacceptable......only if people understood dogs and their behaviuor more then such cases would not be as common..........

Habu - have you seen Ceaser Millan on the TV - what do you reckon.....for me there is someone who totally understands the minds of different breeds - top bloke and GREAT programme : victory:



HABU said:


> a dog may bite for a reason...big deal!....murderers kill innocent people for a reason.....they all have reasons.....usually very twisted ones. who care what a dog thinks?...i'm a big dog fan but i wouldn't hesitate to blow one away if it attacked someone. even dogs protecting property IMO are ticking time bombs. and yes, nearly always aggression is the owners fault and to be fair, both have to pay....too bad the dog has to pay a much bigger price than the owner. no one ever wins in these situations, all parties suffer. here we have pit bull attacks all the time and it's always the owners at fault. but you have to look at all the dead and maimed kids and adults.........aggressive dogs are unacceptable....just my opinion.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I've been attacked whilst out walking with my rottie more times by stupid pathetic over grown rats than ANY big dog breed i have ever encountered.

Yorkies, westies, jack russels are often not trained and allowed to run riot because people see them as no threat and are often treated like replacement children which causes no end of problems!!

Marina


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

I think a small dog is much safer than a big dog, just my oppinion and i will say why. You, a adult could handle a say chihouhou with out bieng hurt enough to be taken to hospital or even killed, where as a Grait Dane or Saint Bernard dog could most deffinetly take out a human/adult.

Anyway, shouldnt of been done!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I've been attacked whilst out walking with my rottie more times by stupid pathetic over grown rats than ANY big dog breed i have ever encountered.
> 
> Yorkies, westies, jack russels are often not trained and allowed to run riot because people see them as no threat and are often treated like replacement children which causes no end of problems!!
> 
> Marina


 
Im so with you on that one they are the worst dogs to come across when out walking my 2 boys hate yorkies they have had their noses bitten a few time by these horrible lil over grown rats :whistling2:

I find them to be a hell of alot more aggressive than big bred dogs


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

We were not talking about an adult being attacked though we were talking about children and a frightened child would be seriously mauled and maimed by any breed of dog.

Marina


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

snakelover said:


> I think a small dog is much safer than a big dog, just my oppinion and i will say why. You, a adult could handle a say chihouhou with out bieng hurt enough to be taken to hospital or even killed, where as a Grait Dane or Saint Bernard dog could most deffinetly take out a human/adult.
> 
> Anyway, shouldnt of been done!


Thats a really wrong way of looking at it we are not talking about adults we are talking about leaving children with dogs.......................my sisters jack russel has a worse bite than my mallie x husky...............i have also found smaller bred dogs are more possessive and jealous over their owners too so i wouldnt trust leaving a child with a small bred dog


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

snakelover said:


> I think a small dog is much safer than a big dog, just my oppinion and i will say why. You, a adult could handle a say chihouhou with out bieng hurt enough to be taken to hospital or even killed, where as a Grait Dane or Saint Bernard dog could most deffinetly take out a human/adult.
> 
> Anyway, shouldnt of been done!


 
I do agree with that, there is less danger from small breed dogs - but thats obvious. Although small dogs do still have the potential to give nasty bites - I cant see a chihuahua or yorkie mauling and killing an adult - where as big breeds of dogs can, and quite easily if they chose to.


That story about the jack russel fighting the pitbulls to save the kids is sooo sad


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## snakelover (Dec 17, 2006)

True, when with children i agree....all dogs can be dangerouse, and jack russels have a bite on em...

How old was the child, i only heard about it?
R.I.P


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

I have a Rottie and she is fantastic , I have 3 kids ranging from 4 yrs to 14, she is the best family pet ever ....... No such thing as a bad dog , just bad owners.

Steve


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Catherine896 said:


> I do agree with that, there is less danger from small breed dogs - but thats obvious. Although small dogs do still have the potential to give nasty bites - I cant see a chihuahua or yorkie mauling and killing an adult - where as big breeds of dogs can, and quite easily if they chose to.
> 
> 
> That story about the jack russel fighting the pitbulls to save the kids is sooo sad


But again we are not talking about mauling adults we are talking about children.................and not all large breeds are aggressive so you cant say just cos a dog is large bred its likely to maul someone to death really


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

Just to say I know we werent talking about an adult. But likewise - a chihuahua wouldnt of ripped a child to bits like a rottweiler could do easily. I wouldnt trust any dogs around my little boy. Small breeds are nippy, big breeds can cause alot of damage even accidently.

I was just stating the difference in damage a small dog could do compared to a big dog.


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> But again we are not talking about mauling adults we are talking about children.................and not all large breeds are aggressive so you cant say just cos a dog is large bred its likely to maul someone to death really


 
I didnt say all large dogs are going to maul someone. But they do have the capability of doing so.
Anyone in the world can grab a knife and go stab someone - same as any dog in the world can go and attack someone.
Thats not to say they will, but if pushed into it they could cause alot of damage.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Catherine896 said:


> Just to say I know we werent talking about an adult. But likewise - a chihuahua wouldnt of ripped a child to bits like a rottweiler could do easily. I wouldnt trust any dogs around my little boy. Small breeds are nippy, big breeds can cause alot of damage even accidently.
> 
> I was just stating the difference in damage a small dog could do compared to a big dog.


small bred dogs being underestimated yet again lol

If you could see the way my very small bred springer spaniel ate her food (she is on raw) then you would think very differently about that she is capable of eating a full rabbit fur and everything so if she turned she could quiet easily do a hell of alot of damage to a child.............when a dog is determined to do something for some reason they will find a way of doing it


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Catherine896 said:


> I didnt say all large dogs are going to maul someone. But they do have the capability of doing so.
> Anyone in the world can grab a knife and go stab someone - same as any dog in the world can go and attack someone.
> Thats not to say they will, but if pushed into it they could cause alot of damage.


but still any dog not matter how big is capable of just the same thing


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## Catherine896 (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah I see what you are saying, but if a yorkie was to bite a 6 year old child - they would be left with injuries possibly needing stitches. Could be worse depending on where it is (ie the face)
But if a rottweiler was to bite a 6 year olds face the damage would be far worse. The difference is you can kick a little dog away, you can protect yourself far better against a small dog than a great big one.
I know they can cause damage, they are prone to jealousy problems etc. But I would far rather be attacked by a tiny dog to a large dog - I have a better chance against a small breed.


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## mark elliott (Feb 5, 2007)

Mark75 said:


> Your exact words were
> 
> To me that statement reads that animals should be on equal footing as humans.
> 
> ...


every form of life on this planet is important and they are all here for a reason and its no ones place to play god with anyone of them and perhaps with a little more understanding of them situations like this might not happen or might not happen so often


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

reason as to why no dog should ever be left with a baby or young child any size or breed...................pack instinct is to put out of misery if one of the pack members is hurt or injured and this is indicted by the pack member crying.................when a dog hears this they associate it with the pack member being in pain and needing to be put out of its misery as that is what they would do in the wild....................there are many instincts that will never be able to be taken out of dogs its a natural thing as is hunting and scavenging 

Also a mothering instinct can set in too and they will try to sooth the child crying by how they would one of their own too..................

just thought i would share that lol


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

labmad said:


> Yep agree matey, aggressive dogs are unacceptable......only if people understood dogs and their behaviuor more then such cases would not be as common..........
> 
> Habu - have you seen Ceaser Millan on the TV - what do you reckon.....for me there is someone who totally understands the minds of different breeds - top bloke and GREAT programme : victory:


ceasar is my type of guy. he thinks like a dog. i'm no big expert but my doberman was about the finest trained dog anyone has ever seen. i trained him without any books or help. i just began to think like a dog. i worked my dog everyday and it was more me learning than the dog. ceasar stresses the basics....dog behavior. you have to always consider the dogs point of veiw and how he interprets things. you have to become a dog....after all, you have to be the pack leader. most people with dogs i see, even ones with years of experience, are way too verbal with dogs. with dogs it's all about body language and posture. people waste so much time talking to their dogs...you know...."sit fido, sit! aw, come on! sit! please fido, why won't you sit? i'll give you a treat? what's the matter fido? are you mad at me?.".....crap like that. a dog just hears a bunch gobbly-**** coming from the owner's mouth....my doberman could go through all of his paces with just hand signals. we used the same language so it wasn't about training in the traditional sense. a good handler has his dog WANT to please him by doing the things he wants. everything has to be positive. dogs don't understand punishment like we do. with my dog, the worse thing i could do to him was to ignore him. my dog could read me and know what i wanted. usually when people give a command to their dog, their mouth says one thing but their body says something entirely different....guess what the dog is paying attention to? dogs aren't people....not even close in their thought process. ceasar milan was a breath of fresh air when i first saw him. i wish he was on tv when i had my dog. my nefew just got a dog a few months ago...1/2 german shepard, 1/2 doberman.....they haven't a clue. after explaining things to them, because they want their dog to be like mine was, i finally said to them:......"it's all about how much work you put into the dog...people always get the dog that they deserve."......just my take on things.


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

small dog, big dog, doesn't matter with a child, both can be just as deadly,

have to say been reading up and there seems to be some inconsistencies with the story around this case and i think there may be more to it. 

we'll probably never know, and this is why my son didn't see his greatgrand mother for nearly 3 years at one point because she refused to put her unpredictable dog out of the house when we visited, my son was much more important to me than upsetting her precious pet. it caused a family row me not visiting her but hey what the hell better that than me an injured or dead child and her having to have the dog put down.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

mark elliott said:


> every form of life on this planet is important and they are all here for a reason and its no ones place to play god with anyone of them and perhaps with a little more understanding of them situations like this might not happen or might not happen so often


 we started playing god when we changed them from what they were to what we wanted by artificial selection. :whistling2:


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Can only second this........Ceaser is the best example I have seen to date of how you should understand and behave with dogs.....whatever the breed, he knows his topic extremely well as there is not much room if any for error especially when you see some of the dogs he works with.......and another thing he seems a very genuine and really nice guy ...........Roll on the next season of 'The Dog Whisperer' : victory:



HABU said:


> ceasar is my type of guy. he thinks like a dog. i'm no big expert but my doberman was about the finest trained dog anyone has ever seen. i trained him without any books or help. i just began to think like a dog. i worked my dog everyday and it was more me learning than the dog. ceasar stresses the basics....dog behavior. you have to always consider the dogs point of veiw and how he interprets things. you have to become a dog....after all, you have to be the pack leader. most people with dogs i see, even ones with years of experience, are way too verbal with dogs. with dogs it's all about body language and posture. people waste so much time talking to their dogs...you know...."sit fido, sit! aw, come on! sit! please fido, why won't you sit? i'll give you a treat? what's the matter fido? are you mad at me?.".....crap like that. a dog just hears a bunch gobbly-**** coming from the owner's mouth....my doberman could go through all of his paces with just hand signals. we used the same language so it wasn't about training in the traditional sense. a good handler has his dog WANT to please him by doing the things he wants. everything has to be positive. dogs don't understand punishment like we do. with my dog, the worse thing i could do to him was to ignore him. my dog could read me and know what i wanted. usually when people give a command to their dog, their mouth says one thing but their body says something entirely different....guess what the dog is paying attention to? dogs aren't people....not even close in their thought process. ceasar milan was a breath of fresh air when i first saw him. i wish he was on tv when i had my dog. my nefew just got a dog a few months ago...1/2 german shepard, 1/2 doberman.....they haven't a clue. after explaining things to them, because they want their dog to be like mine was, i finally said to them:......"it's all about how much work you put into the dog...people always get the dog that they deserve."......just my take on things.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

These dogs have been selectively bred over generations for specific purposes that fall well outside of the scope of the term "pet". IMO normal dog owners (i.e not professional pedigree breeders) have no business owning "rotts" and pit-bulls etc as pets any more than your average forum member on here has a valid and reasonable reason to own a King Cobra or 20 foot Rock Python!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

These dogs have been selectively bred over generations for specific purposes that fall well outside of the scope of the term "pet". IMO normal dog owners (i.e not professional pedigree breeders or people using the dogs as they've been designed to be used) have no business owning "rotts" and pit-bulls etc as pets any more than your average forum member on here has a valid and reasonable reason to own a King Cobra or 20 foot Rock Python!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> These dogs have been selectively bred over generations for specific purposes that fall well outside of the scope of the term "pet". IMO normal dog owners (i.e not professional pedigree breeders or people using the dogs as they've been designed to be used) have no business owning "rotts" and pit-bulls etc as pets any more than your average forum member on here has a valid and reasonable reason to own a King Cobra or 20 foot Rock Python!


How can you say that the only people that should be allowed to own these dogs are pedigree breeders................thats very wrong is that im sorry but its nothing to do with the breed its how they are treated and brought up that matters!!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my brother's family have two dogs the one i mentioned and a fifi dog, shitzu/toy poodle.....they both jump on everyone but me....i just carry myself in a way that they understand and they understand me without me saying a word. whatever comes out of a person's mouth whether it's praise or asking it to stop jumping all over you sounds pretty much the same to a dog. but body language and eye contact is what a dog know instinctively. you ever notice how when a bunch of dogs all get together and socialize,, hardly a sound is made...it's all body language.


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## mark elliott (Feb 5, 2007)

HABU said:


> we started playing god when we changed them from what they were to what we wanted by artificial selection. :whistling2:


Yep I have to agree with you on that one as we are to blame for most things on this planet


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

I thought very carefully before buying my rottweiler. We are not active people and rotties sleep most of the day, we needed a dog that could protect me and the property whilst my partner was away, a dog that was loyal and love able, a dog that was easily trainable and could entertain it self whilst we were both at work, but a dog that we could rumble tumble with without stepping on it.

After many months research we found that rottie fulfilled this list of duties.
We didnt buy a 'ard dog coz we thought it looked "cool".
Marina


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I thought very carefully before buying my rottweiler. We are not active people and rotties sleep most of the day, we needed a dog that could protect me and the property whilst my partner was away, a dog that was loyal and love able, a dog that was easily trainable and could entertain it self whilst we were both at work, but a dog that we could rumble tumble with without stepping on it.
> 
> After many months research we found that rottie fulfilled this list of duties.
> We didnt buy a 'ard dog coz we thought it looked "cool".
> Marina


Me and my wife bought for all the same reasons ....... True .... so true ..


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Marinam2 said:


> I thought very carefully before buying my rottweiler. We are not active people and rotties sleep most of the day, we needed a dog that could protect me and the property whilst my partner was away, a dog that was loyal and love able, a dog that was easily trainable and could entertain it self whilst we were both at work, but a dog that we could rumble tumble with without stepping on it.
> 
> After many months research we found that rottie fulfilled this list of duties.
> We didnt buy a 'ard dog coz we thought it looked "cool".
> Marina


You know a few of my friends own rotties and they are softest daftest dogs you could ever come across...............these are dogs that have been brought up in family homes from day one and treated exceptionally well they wouldnt know nasty if it tickled them on the nose............but still saying all that they have never ever left the dogs unsupervised with any of their children and never would its a case of using common sense reallly


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## fangsy (Sep 17, 2007)

They are soppy , and the most loving dogs ever ....


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

people should be able to own any dog they want. that goes for anything. it's when you cause something bad to happen that you should pay the price. just like anyone should be allowed to drive ....until they do something bad.


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## xmashx (Sep 14, 2007)

its really tragic what happened to that baby. im not saying anyones particularly to blame but
1)dogs dont just bite knowone knows what happened but theres got to be a reason
2)you dont leave a baby with a dog no matter how friendly it is with you. and you definatly dont leave a baby with a 7yr old no matter how able they are they still cant safely look after a baby

i think she was a young mum and thats got to be tiring and when your tired you make mistakes, knowones knows what happened for sure, whether someone goeded the dog or if the baby was by itself or with someone. we only know whats been said in statements. 

but it seems recently theres alot about dogs attacking children. It cant just be loads of dogs going crazy it has to be something thats happened to them it could be people that aint in the family or the people they live with but whatever is the truth its left on whoever contributed to whats happened conscions (sorry bout spelling). plus people have a nack for lying so in all honesty knowone would ever know the truth or what they said happened ever happend. we've just got to go on people honestness.

xsachax

p.s soz i didnt read every page because it was giving me a head ache soz if ive brought up things that have already been discussed.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

fangsy said:


> They are soppy , and the most loving dogs ever ....


yips i know that one very well if brought up properly they are wonderful dogs : victory:


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## pokerplayer (Jul 22, 2007)

i think the dog shouldnt have been destroyed. when humans kill people, they arent put down, even child killers are let loose after years and years.
its the owners fault i think. they shouldnt have left a dog and a small child together, tho tbh, when i was growing up, my mother use to leave me in the living room while she went up stairs ect with my dog, a collie cross, my dog was lovely and used to lie next to me. so its kinda a double edged sword. but honestly, deep down inside me...the dog shouldnt have been destroyed.


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## iiisecondcreep (Oct 29, 2007)

Mark75 said:


> I don't agree with that comment either. My Nan used to keep 3 labradors, all were kept the same, fed the same, slept together and my Nan showed no particular dog any favouritism. Honey and Mikey were well mannered and always submissive but Sam was a loose cannon and would bite and snap just because he could.


Yeah its not always the owner, I know some people who breed Samoyeds. The first one was a dog called Kobi they'd had from a tiny pup. The bred him a number of times, then one day when he was a bit older (about 7 or 8 maybe) he snapped.
He literally went mental and attacked his owner for no apparent reason, he had to be put to sleep shortly afterwards because it started happening all the time and he was uncontrollable when he snapped.
If memory serves it turned out the dog had a condition that caused it to be so aggressive, but either way- not the owners fault and no way it could have been foreseen.


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

small dogs might not be able to do the damage a big dog can but in my experience theyre far more willing to bite. when i was a kid i was badly bitten by a jack russel that was roaming around the streets. even now when im walking past a small dog i tense up whereas im not so bothered about big dogs. 
and when walking either of my dogs, theyve both been attacked by little yippy dogs off the lead a hell of a lot more than other "big dogs". people let these little dogs do whatever they like because its "cute" when its not. its bloody annoying and irresponsible. the owners even have the cheek to go mad if my dog hurts theirs! (my dog is always on the lead when this happens). he doesnt even mean to hurt them but hes so big he stands on them a lot of the time! 
most larger dog owners are usually more responsible and easier to get along with, at least around here. 
little dogs dont get into the papers because they dont do as much damage but i bet a lot more people have been bitten by smaller breeds than big breeds. But unfortunately, mass hysteria wins over logic yet again.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

dogs will attack a child just because they consider them a threat to their standing in the pack. i'd never have let a kid around my old dog until i made it clear that the child was superior to the dog.....there's where the problem starts. dogs must always be the lowest member of the pack. all humans must be considered a higher ranking member of the pack. when a new human come on the scene, with many dogs, the pecking order hasn't been made clear. confusion causes accidents....basic DOG-101


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> How can you say that the only people that should be allowed to own these dogs are pedigree breeders................thats very wrong is that im sorry but its nothing to do with the breed its how they are treated and brought up that matters!!


I'm sorry but that is just not correct. Dogs are domesticated animals and the breeds have been selectively bred over many generations to exhibit certain characteristics and dispositions (they are effectively man made!). You may get very aggressive rotts and you may get docile rotts, but all rotts are towards the dangerous end of the spectrum (compared to other breeds) because that is how we have designed them! The whole nature v nurture issue will always be there and any one dog will always be a result of the combination of the two. The point I was making is that why try and turn one of the more aggressive/dangerous etc etc breeds into a "pet" when they are clearly not predisposed to this way of life to begin with. The odds are never going to be stacked in your favour, are they?!?!

Just like corn snakes and royal pythons make better "pets" than Cobras, so certain dog species make better "pets" than others. Please note that I'm not saying Rotts etc should be outlawed (any more than I'm saying Cobras should), just that they should be left to the serious canine hobbyists and people who'll keep them as they've been designed to be kept, not by the average person who'll have it sleeping on the sofa!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

many dogs here are just a macho thing.........inner city thug life!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> I'm sorry but that is just not correct. Dogs are domesticated animals and the breeds have been selectively bred over many generations to exhibit certain characteristics and dispositions (they are effectively man made!). You may get very aggressive rotts and you may get docile rotts, but all rotts are towards the dangerous end of the spectrum (compared to other breeds) because that is how we have designed them! The whole nature v nurture issue will always be there and any one dog will always be a result of the combination of the two. The point I was making is that why try and turn one of the more aggressive/dangerous etc etc breeds into a "pet" when they are clearly not predisposed to this way of life to begin with. The odds are never going to be stacked in your favour, are they?!?!
> 
> Just like corn snakes and royal pythons make better "pets" than Cobras, so certain dog species make better "pets" than others. Please note that I'm not saying Rotts etc should be outlawed (any more than I'm saying Cobras should), just that they should be left to the serious canine hobbyists and people who'll keep them as they've been designed to be kept, not by the average person who'll have it sleeping on the sofa!


yes what you are saying is right but i dont agree with the bit about you saying that they shouldnt be kept as pets they should be left to do the job they were bred to do.............i find that wrong i have 3 sled dogs soon to be for............so because i dont have them doing the job they were bred to do does that mean i shouldnt own them?? 

you cant say that about a breed any breed can be domesticated to live as a pet...............but yet again some cant but they shouldnt be ruled out to be kept as pets cos all dogs are different even if they are the same breed you cant tar them all in with the same brush just because there is one bad egg in breed can you


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

they are still dogs. yes different breeds have behaviors that they were bred for but to me, the bottom line is that they are still pack animals and MUST be dominated by and alpha. to let a dog feel dominate over anything human will cause problems. a fifi dog can be the worse because they tend to be pampered and they then think that they are higher in the hierarchy than they are. it must be ingrained in all dogs and especially in the bigger working breeds that they are inferior to humans period. but always research the temperment that a dog has been bred for. don't buy a particular dog breed because you like their looks. behavior and socialization and also training are what is important for a dog. dogs almost always want training and a working dog needs a job. if it doesn't get one from the owner, it'll find it's own and that can be bad news. it might decide to protect you from dangerous 3 year old kids!!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

HABU said:


> they are still dogs. yes different breeds have behaviors that they were bred for but to me, the bottom line is that they are still pack animals and MUST be dominated by and alpha. to let a dog feel dominate over anything human will cause problems. a fifi dog can be the worse because they tend to be pampered and they then think that they are higher in the hierarchy than they are. it must be ingrained in all dogs and especially in the bigger working breeds that they are inferior to humans period. but always research the temperment that a dog has been bred for. don't buy a particular dog breed because you like their looks. behavior and socialization and also training are what is important for a dog. dogs almost always want training and a working dog needs a job. if it doesn't get one from the owner, it'll find it's own and that can be bad news. it might decide to protect you from dangerous 3 year old kids!!


yes and being a husky owner i know the utter importance of pack leader and my dogs know who is pack leader in our house..............they do have a job when they are out walking i have never stopped my dogs from pulling only ever used means to control it and when they are old enough they will do a job they love running on a scooter............my dogs are not gaurding dogs and would never atempt to protect me from anything! they are more likely to lick someone to death than bite them...............i didnt get my dogs because they look good i did do my research on the breed before i went out and bought the cute puppy like sooooooo many people make the mistakes of doing then have to rehome..................my dogs were bred to pull and run and when they are of mature age they will do just that but just for fun 

I have loved the breed of dog for years that i have but i waited ! until i knew i had the time and means to put into owning the dogs i have dreamed of owning from been very young !

shame not enough people out there do their research as then there would hardly be any problems like this out there


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> yes and being a husky owner i know the utter importance of pack leader and my dogs know who is pack leader in our house..............they do have a job when they are out walking i have never stopped my dogs from pulling only ever used means to control it and when they are old enough they will do a job they love running on a scooter............my dogs are not gaurding dogs and would never atempt to protect me from anything! they are more likely to lick someone to death than bite them...............i didnt get my dogs because they look good i did do my research on the breed before i went out and bought the cute puppy like sooooooo many people make the mistakes of doing then have to rehome..................my dogs were bred to pull and run and when they are of mature age they will do just that but just for fun
> 
> I have loved the breed of dog for years that i have but i waited ! until i knew i had the time and means to put into owning the dogs i have dreamed of owning from been very young !
> 
> shame not enough people out there do their research as then there would hardly be any problems like this out there


 
that wasn't directed at you....and it seems that you are a right proper owner. if everyone was like you and understood how a dog's mind works there wouldn't be all these attacks here in the states and all the euthenizing of ruined dogs....a waste to me...just sad for a dog to be put down because of an owner that is too lazy to spend an afternoon learning about basic dog behavior.....some are just too busy playing their X-box 360!!!:crazy:


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## terrypin (Dec 27, 2007)

hi i have a 3 year old entire male pedigree rottweiler and i have seen how people often refer to them as guard dogs unfortunately for the dog this is incorrect they are neither bred for nor suited to the life a good guard dog thinks for itself and the last thing you want is for your rotty to make decisions, they are bred to work closely with humans as herders and personal protection dogs ,my rotty watches me all the time and triesto second guess me about what i will want him to do if i walk towards his crate he runs in to wait for a treat if i approach him when he is eating he steps back in case i want to add a tasty morsel what i am trying to say is they are very intelligent dogs and need to know what is expected of them in every situation if you put them in a strange situation and they cant look to you for guidance they will make decisions for themselves and this is when they get into trouble.my rotty has never growled or shown any aggression to a human , in fact our dustman who is over 6 foot tall reaches over the fence and pats him .i still dont let him play with my grandchildren EVER.the dog or the dustman lol.

terry


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

HABU said:


> that wasn't directed at you....and it seems that you are a right proper owner. if everyone was like you and understood how a dog's mind works there wouldn't be all these attacks here in the states and all the euthenizing of ruined dogs....a waste to me...just sad for a dog to be put down because of an owner that is too lazy to spend an afternoon learning about basic dog behavior.....some are just too busy playing their X-box 360!!!:crazy:


I know it was aimed at me was just using what you said as it was similar to what i was saying lol 

yeah it is a shame dogs are so misunderstood its unbelievable at the end of the day if you dont want the commitment you dont buy the dog............yes puppies are cute but they grow and they are just as demanding as children are and thats what people really dont understand


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

my doberman would spit out his food on command!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> yes what you are saying is right but i dont agree with the bit about you saying that they shouldnt be kept as pets they should be left to do the job they were bred to do.............i find that wrong i have 3 sled dogs soon to be for............so because i dont have them doing the job they were bred to do does that mean i shouldnt own them??


You're missing the point. Rotts have been selectively bred to show aggression etc. That is why they shouldn't be kept as pets. Its the aggression that makes them unsuitable as pets, not the fact that the animal isn't doing what its been bred to do. Your sled dogs have been bred for a different purpose. Keeping them as a pet is not what they've been designed to do but their predisposition isn't aggressiveness, is it(?) They therefore aren't as likely to maul a baby to death. I never said that all dogs should only be used for the purpose they were intended (as far as I know none were bred with the "pet" purpose in mind), all I said is that those ones that have had aggression etc bred into them (rotts, pit-bulls etc) shouldn't be kept as pets because their "man made" instinct is too incompatable with them making a good "pet".



> you cant say that about a breed any breed can be domesticated to live as a pet...............but yet again some cant but they shouldnt be ruled out to be kept as pets cos all dogs are different even if they are the same breed you cant tar them all in with the same brush just because there is one bad egg in breed can you


Dog breeds have been selectively bred over many, many generations to show certain predispositions. I find the idea that you can switch off this predisposition with a bit of nurturing a bit unrealistic. Granted, all individual dogs will show differing levels of that predisposition (like I said earlier, some rotts will be docile), but on average rotts are aggressive when compared to a poodle, for example. I don't deny that many rotts will make perfectly good pets. The point I'm making, however, is that they aren't naturally predisposed to this and so the odds aren't in your favour. So why take the risk?! 

If we can't tar all dogs with the same brush then I assume that you are in favour of having American Pit Bulls legalised? If your answer is no then I'm afraid you're contradicting yourself.


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## Niccired (Apr 13, 2007)

As ive said in another thread ive got a 9mth old rottie called Brutus- he is GORGEOUS!!!!!
We got him after my last rottie Zeus was PTS at the age of 3 after a long illness. We had Zeus before i gave birth to my daughter Ruby and when we brought her home from the hospital he was abit jealous but not to bad, after a while he settled down but due to all the medication he was on and how poorly he was, he could be very grumpy so we always muzzled him in public.

After he was PTS we got Brutus and since we have had him from 11wks, he has been trained how we want him to be, he isnt show trained as he is just a pet but he is brilliant with other dogs and kids/adults- this does not mean for one second i would leave him in a room with my 18mth old on their own!!! I trust brutus, i just dont trust ruby!

Once a dog has shown aggression of that kind IMO they should be PTS- whatever the breed!!

I will add the other day when i was walking brutus a JRT jumped at his face and bit him- all brut did was cry, the JRT wasnt on a lead and the man just laughed coz he thought it was funny brut didnt react?!! it annoys me that people look at rotties in discust and yet allow their own dogs to show aggression but because their not the typical "dangerous looking dog" its ok?!!!!!


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> As ive said in another thread ive got a 9mth old rottie called Brutus- he is GORGEOUS!!!!!
> We got him after my last rottie Zeus was PTS at the age of 3 after a long illness. We had Zeus before i gave birth to my daughter Ruby and when we brought her home from the hospital he was abit jealous but not to bad, after a while he settled down but due to all the medication he was on and how poorly he was, he could be very grumpy so we always muzzled him in public.
> 
> After he was PTS we got Brutus and since we have had him from 11wks, he has been trained how we want him to be, he isnt show trained as he is just a pet but he is brilliant with other dogs and kids/adults- this does not mean for one second i would leave him in a room with my 18mth old on their own!!! I trust brutus, i just dont trust ruby!
> ...


I agree with what you're saying but unfortunately we can't legislate against individual dogs. They have to be grouped with the rest of their breed otherwise any legislation would be completely un-workable. I don't think that anyone would argue that, as a breed, rotts are probably towards the more dangerous end of the spectrum, partly because of their nature, but also because of their sheer mass (I understand that the rott that killed this baby weighed over 10 stone!). Jack Russells can be nasty little things, but thats just the point..they're little!

At the end of the day even the most dangerous of dogs poses no threat when it is being dealt with and kept properly by a knowledgable and responsible owner (just like venomous snakes pose no public threat when kept in compliance with the relevant legislation), but the problem is that many of these dogs are not being kept in this way. Couple that with the fact that there are many other species that, as a breed, are not predisposed to the same tendencies, and I find it hard to see how many people can justify keeping rotts as pets. In the same way that your average forum member on here couldn't justify keeping a cobra.

Maybe that's the key to tackling these sorts of problems in the future. Maybe you should have to justify why you should be allowed certain species of dog when if you only want a "pet" there are clearly more suitable breeds available.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

In order for a dog thats been brought up in a loving home to show aggression it has to be shown how to use aggression in the 1st place...............like labmad has said if it was a human that attackrd someone would be different his whole or her whole family wouldnt be tarred in with the same brush as them...............but dog breeds get tarred into the same brush even if their are the select few that aint aggressive..........its sad really


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Just a quick one on smaller breeds, ie, jack russels, yorkies, chiuawas etc.....these dogs can be lil buggers and snappy etc etc, and all too often you see owners picking them up when they start to behave in an undesirable way.......probably becuase they can and it's easier to do so, BUT, what a lot of owners don't realise with this is the fact that as a result the dog thinks it's status is being enforced and that the dog thinks it's higher ranked than the human and the dog it's having a pop at.......my opinion, whatever the size is all dogs should be corrected and taught using the same basic fundamental principle......no I'm not a dog trainer, just soemone who is trying to understand the dogs mind and why they behave in the ways they do .......


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

i cannot believe we are comparing rotties with cobras (burms maybe) all dogs should be judged on their individuality not as breeds. 

my nans dog as previously mentioned was a labx and was one of the most dangerous dogs that i have ever met because it was brought up wrong it thought itself to be top dog and hated anyone who had attention from my nan usually the children of the family. other family members have rottties and they are well trained and trustworthy. i used to have an alsationx and i would have trusted him with any child. friend had a jack russel that suddenly attacked her son when he came in through the front door and she had it put down. 

in this instance should the dog have been put down yes of course its attacked and killed a child, should all rotties be banned no most are beautiful well trained docile animals.

as for legislation i believe that *all *dogs should be muzzled in public places reguardless, and within the home its down to the individual family to keep themselves safe and to take precautions after all its them that suffers the loss when things go wrong no one else.


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## JUJU (Aug 16, 2007)

I have a lovely little dog, who has never snapped, yapped once at my 20 month old son. I always supervise them when together, and will carry on doing so. At the end of the day no 7 year old should have took a 1 year old to see a dog, that was kept as a guard dog!! Their 16 year old aunt was out of the room and had to be called to wrestle the child out of the dogs mouth, where were the parents?? Why was a child looking after another child without adult supervision, I feel for the family I really do, and imo the dog should have been pts, it couldn't have been trusted after this attack, but it beggars the question where were the adults in this situation?? And now the large breed dogs will have another bad round of press!! When will these people learn??!! Thats my opinion anyway x


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## murinus (Jan 3, 2007)

Mark75 said:


> The fact is an animal is just that and shouldn't even be considered near that of a human life


you might be in for a big shock if you were drowning near my dog.....if only one could be saved by myself :whistling2:

lots of very good perspectives in this thread. my thoughts are that yet again it is human error. the parents shouldnt of taken the risk by leaving their child at a house with this dog that was know to be aggresive and kept out of the house (especially after the things that have gone on in the last year or so) unfortunately the seven year old also made an error in going outside. i believe i would want my own dog put to sleep if it took a childs life, because i would also be an irresponsible owner for letting it happen and because the dog has shown it can kill. dogs dont ask to be born, we are responsible for our own pets or animals in our charge and 'we' should be held responsible as much as the dog.

thoughts go to all family involved


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> In order for a dog thats been brought up in a loving home to show aggression it has to be shown how to use aggression in the 1st place


Err...so are you trying to tell us that rotts (or other dogs species to varying degrees) have no natural instinct towards agression?!?!? I think you'll find that most of the scientific evidence will show you that agression is a natural instinct in animals that isn't learned in the way you suggest. With dogs its slightly different to most animals because mankind has effectively designed them over thousands of years rather than evolution doing the job over millions of years. 

By your argument you can't make any generalisations about the different breeds of dog because they are all individuals. Aside from the fact that most people would disagree with that position, such a position prevents any kind of legislation being introduced.


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Err...so are you trying to tell us that rotts (or other dogs species to varying degrees) have no natural instinct towards agression?!?!? I think you'll find that most of the scientific evidence will show you that agression is a natural instinct in animals that isn't learned in the way you suggest. With dogs its slightly different to most animals because mankind has effectively designed them over thousands of years rather than evolution doing the job over millions of years.
> 
> By your argument you can't make any generalisations about the different breeds of dog because they are all individuals. Aside from the fact that most people would disagree with that position, such a position prevents any kind of legislation being introduced.


 
I still stand by the saying "there is no such thing as a bad dog only bad owners"

But having said that, certain breeds of dog are constantly involved in aggresive acts. Rotties and Pit Bulls spring to mind.......so does this mean that they are aggresive breeds or that they attract a certain type of owner???

I know people who have Rotties and Pit Bulls and the ones that I am familiar with are lovely dogs and soft as sh*t so to speak

So why are these particular breeds constantly involved in these situations??

Just about any breed of dog can do some serious damge to a child if it has a mind to.....I breed CKCS, only small dogs but if one of them set apon a small child it would be devastating.....

Should they ban certain breeds......I really dont know to be honest, I think the answer is more having a well trained dog which means putting in the hours. 

All ours are well trained if fact if you are at Crufts on the 6th March you will see one of mine at the obedience trials....free plug there for my daughter

Just my thoughts.....not out to upset anyone.......


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## talltom69 (Dec 8, 2006)

Was the Rottie old as I know they tend to go senial as they get very old. my uncle had to put down one of his that was soft as a puppy all its life then one day it snapped and went for a small child.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> Err...so are you trying to tell us that rotts (or other dogs species to varying degrees) have no natural instinct towards agression?!?!? I think you'll find that most of the scientific evidence will show you that agression is a natural instinct in animals that isn't learned in the way you suggest. With dogs its slightly different to most animals because mankind has effectively designed them over thousands of years rather than evolution doing the job over millions of years.
> 
> By your argument you can't make any generalisations about the different breeds of dog because they are all individuals. Aside from the fact that most people would disagree with that position, such a position prevents any kind of legislation being introduced.


Look at the end of the day you have your opinions on dogs and breeds i have mine...............and my opinion is that of any dog thats brought up in a loving home.............will need to learn to be aggressive as it would have no reason to be a aggressive if being cared for or looked after and brought up properly..............bit like children they dont automatically talk and read they have to learn and be taught 

all im saying is that you can tar all dogs in with the same brush just because the breed has a bad name there are the acceptions out there !!

And i dont think you have any god given right saying that people shouldnt be allowed to own these dogs as pets...............generally people that own them know the breed and what its capable of and the risks but they have the risks covered..............its the idiots out there that dont research and know the breed that end up in horrible situations like whats happened in the start of the thread!


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## aj_0121 (Nov 26, 2007)

i hate hearing stories like this because it always seems to be the dogs fault when really its not why would you leave a kid at that age with a dog thinking about it i wouldn't leave a kid at that age without a dog to be honest im 17 and when my older sister asked me to babysit i say no because they have a german shepard which is a guard dog and if anythink was to ever happen i could never forgive myself again and what annoys me is that it will be the dogs who get put down and the parents who get away with it. Its the same as dog fighting people who get caught get like 6 months in prison then you got people who do somethink that aint that bad and get years why should the dogs be put down and they get away with it now ive always wanted a staff but my mom will not let me why??because she says all i hear is that they figthing dogs and in no way can be a pet and its all down to people who just use dogs for fighting or who cant be arsed to look after them why they have a baby personally i know if i had a kid i wouldn't have any pet i thought that would be a risk to my child but then again thoughts go to the family no one deserves to lose there life specially not at that age anyways


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

Dogs do have aggressive tendancies from breeding... anyone who is disputing this and saying dogs are not bred for aggression should do some reading on the subject especially on sources such as choosing studs for breeding, suitability of bitches, and choosing a puppy.

Every book and website on german shepherds (my dog) has said that it is of the utmost importance when choosing a puppy that you see the parents, and that they are good with other dogs, and well socialised in a family environment - the parents, as well as the puppies.

All the books I have read on good breeding of GSD's states you would be irresponsible to breed an aggressive GSD. It is a fact that aggressive GSD's can beget youngsters with tendancies towards aggression. Is that the dogs fault? No... if someone is not a responsible breeder, it is not the dogs fault. Furthermore, all buyers of puppies should be well aware of the temperements of the parents and buy responsibly. If a dog is "cheap", it's possibly cheap for a reason, use high quality moral breeders where both parents are available to be seen in a variety of situations and you will get what you pay for. It is sad that some people have deliberately bred dogs with aggressive tendancies in order to get more aggressive puppies and this is breed based in certain breeds, although is certainly no guarantee.

It is unfortunate that people are allowed to breed willy nilly without thought for bloodlines or genetic consequences. It is unfortunate that people are allowed to buy dogs without fully bearing the responsibility for who they buy it from, and the manner in which they bring it up.

At no point can you really blame an animal for being what it is. Dogs are not human, they do not know right from wrong unless you teach them it, and it takes a LOT of training and handling to quell the natural instincts - but as we see with well trained police/army dogs, a dog can be trained for aggression, and still leave at a command and be obedient. Therefore even if a dog is bred for aggression it does not need to be aggressive if given the correct raining and handling. Unfortunately it's a lot easier for people to blame animals than it is to take on the responsibility themselves.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I still stand by the saying "there is no such thing as a bad dog only bad owners


And I have never disagreed with that statement. All I have said is that due to selective breeding certain breeds have more aggressive predispositions that others, and that its these aggressive predispositions that render them less than ideal candidates as "pets". I accept (and have already stated) that you get a great deal of variation within a specific breed, but the fact remains that the average rott is more aggressive (and capable of doing more damage due to its massive size) than many other species. Why, therfore, take the chance and have one as a pet?


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> And i dont think you have any god given right saying that people shouldnt be allowed to own these dogs as pets...............generally people that own them know the breed and what its capable of and the risks but they have the risks covered..............its the idiots out there that dont research and know the breed that end up in horrible situations like whats happened in the start of the thread!


I never said I had a god given right to tell people what to do. All I was doing was highlighting the fact that rotts are an aggressive breed, as breeds go, and as such questioned why people should be allowed to keep them in a "pet" situation when there are plenty of alternatives. If we, as a society, can decide that individuals can't keep American Pit-Bulls (or pass any other restrictive laws for that matter), why can't I suggest extending the ban to other breeds?


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Athravan said:


> At no point can you really blame an animal for being what it is. Dogs are not human, they do not know right from wrong unless you teach them it, and it takes a LOT of training and handling to quell the natural instincts - but as we see with well trained police/army dogs, a dog can be trained for aggression, and still leave at a command and be obedient. Therefore even if a dog is bred for aggression it does not need to be aggressive if given the correct raining and handling. Unfortunately it's a lot easier for people to blame animals than it is to take on the responsibility themselves.


this is what i was getting at with the right kind of training a dog can be taught not to use aggression i wasnt disputing the fact that they are not breed to be aggressive.................but when bred into a family environment they have every chance of becoming perfect pets


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> I never said I had a god given right to tell people what to do. All I was doing was highlighting the fact that rotts are an aggressive breed, as breeds go, and as such questioned why people should be allowed to keep them in a "pet" situation when there are plenty of alternatives. If we, as a society, can decide that individuals can't keep American Pit-Bulls (or pass any other restrictive laws for that matter), why can't I suggest extending the ban to other breeds?


you see this is where it all comes apart, i never agreed with the banning of pit bulls anyway all it did was break the hearts of the responsible owners who had to have their families animals put down (would you like to be the one to tell marinam that her animal is now illegal and must be put to sleep?)and it drove the irresponsible ones underground, their still out there just disguised under different labels.
and i don't believe that rotts are a more aggressive breed just that when one does go wrong it, because of the physical size, causes more damage. don't know the statistics but i'm sure there are a lot more attacks a year from smaller dogs.
the DWA is there to protect the public not the owner and i believe that the legislation in this country should be the same for all dogs (not that dogs should be on the DWA) but that the legislation should apply to when they are out in public.


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

how do you feel about the government bringing back dog licenses, wouldn't it stop irresposible owners having dogs in the first place and also cut down on the ammount of strays??


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

gecko-kus said:


> how do you feel about the government bringing back dog licenses, wouldn't it stop irresposible owners having dogs in the first place and also cut down on the ammount of strays??


 
I think that would be a fantastic idea to be honest 

Though the reason it was abolished is here was noway of poilicing it to make effecctive


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## madaboutreptiles (Jun 5, 2007)

gecko-kus said:


> how do you feel about the government bringing back dog licenses, wouldn't it stop irresposible owners having dogs in the first place and also cut down on the ammount of strays??


I really dont think it would solve anything, if you can afford a Rotti.....you can afford a license and its not strays that are mauling people its family pets....


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## gecko-kus (Aug 15, 2007)

there was a prime example of in-experienced dog owners getting a rotti last night on dog borstal.... they had no idea that what they thought was play was aggression... how they couldn't see it i don't know.


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

gecko-kus said:


> how do you feel about the government bringing back dog licenses, wouldn't it stop irresposible owners having dogs in the first place and also cut down on the ammount of strays??


it sounds good in theory but the irresponsible ones just won't get one and how is it to be policed? plus there are less strays now than years ago when we did have licences so nope just won't work.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> you see this is where it all comes apart, i never agreed with the banning of pit bulls anyway all it did was break the hearts of the responsible owners who had to have their families animals put down (would you like to be the one to tell marinam that her animal is now illegal and must be put to sleep?)and it drove the irresponsible ones underground, their still out there just disguised under different labels.
> and i don't believe that rotts are a more aggressive breed just that when one does go wrong it, because of the physical size, causes more damage. don't know the statistics but i'm sure there are a lot more attacks a year from smaller dogs.
> the DWA is there to protect the public not the owner and i believe that the legislation in this country should be the same for all dogs (not that dogs should be on the DWA) but that the legislation should apply to when they are out in public.


But you have to make generalisations otherwise you can't pass any kind of law. I can think of many situations in which you average "man on the street" would think it was ok to murder someone. But does that mean that we shouldn't make murder illegal _per se_?

Its a wonderful idea to be able to treat each dog as an individual and focus purely on the *nurture* aspect rather than* nature *but in practice you just can't do that. 

You're quite right, the DWA is designed to protect the public and not the owner. But then again, when is the last time you saw a cobra being "walked" in public? The people who get bitten by DWA snakes are the owners, that doesn't appear to be the case with dog attacks because you're average rott is given just as much freedom as other breeds, even though the rott could do much more damage if it were so inclined.

I think we needs to start recognising that some breeds are more dangerous than others (on average) and restrictions should be introduced accordingly.


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## Mustela (Dec 21, 2007)

If a dog has shown it can do this then there is no choice but to have it destroyed in my opinion. It's unfair on the dog because I also believe that there is no such thing as a bad dog, with the correct training, attention and care.. it should behave well. Without, it's a threat to not only small children but other animals, and humans alike. I don't believe that a dog would just attack for no reason. The dog was clearly being taunted or had been trained to attack by an irresponsible owner. So because it attacked and unfortunately killed a child, it has to be put to sleep for behaving like an animal. Doesn't seem fair really.


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

this is why i say the legislation should be some thing like a law saying that all dogs should be muzzled (eliminating the risk to people and other animals alike) when out of the owners premises. if the dog attacks within the home it is the family that suffers not the public. and whilst this case and the one last year are particularly sad because it's resulted in the deaths of two children the families of these have to live with themselves and are the only ones suffering.


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## milly (Dec 25, 2007)

well i think its the responcabilitie of the owner as most dogs are individuals like snakes you get good ones and bad, my daugthers god farther has two rotties and are on finger commands just because they are well behaved does not mean to say i would let my daughter be around them, or any other dog for that reason putting the dog down is an option but what about the owners surly they are partly to blame,just because a snake has never bitten does not mean to say you can say it never will thats the problem most have


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Yep.....this is a VERY common mistake by MANY owners I beleive, not just with the large breeds but with many many breeds of dogs.....this is a basic mistake and lack of understanding when it comes to dog ownership, especially for 1st time owners, but I guess you could say experiened owners to a point too......I know certain owners of certain breeds who have had dogs for a long time but never really got to understand the dogs mind and behaviour, instead if in a sticky situation they'd turn round or aviod the situation somehow.......mistake......the only way a dog will learn is to teach it how to behave in such an environment..........

Again I will say, to me people should take the time to learn how a dog thinks/behaves and to know how to rectify unnecessary behaviour, don't get me wrong MANY people do, but I bet there are MORE than don't as it's easier to walk away........with this simple reason alone there would be much more better behaved dogs out there I reckon :whistling2:



gecko-kus said:


> there was a prime example of in-experienced dog owners getting a rotti last night on dog borstal.... they had no idea that what they thought was play was aggression... how they couldn't see it i don't know.


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

most people know by the age of 2 that dogs dislike postmen. and anyone who considers a career as a postie without realising that is a fool. dogs see the delivery of post as an invasion of their territory, my two decimate any and all post that arrives. and often if a dog bites a postie, nothing happens to the dog. same goes for my job.... im a bt engineer and if i got bitten (and we do sometimes) i wouldn't want the dog put to sleep over it. you cant blame a dog for being a dog. however this attack was very different from these situations, it was unprovoked and was less an attack and more a mauling. there is no doubt in my mind that dog needed to be destroyed, none whatsoever and i love dogs... but it is true.

it'd be foolish to say 'there are no bad dogs, just bad owners'. Whilst this may be true 99% of the time, theres always one thats just 'not right'.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Luton Reptile Rescue said:


> most people know by the age of 2 that dogs dislike postmen. and anyone who considers a career as a postie without realising that is a fool. dogs see the delivery of post as an invasion of their territory, my two decimate any and all post that arrives. and often if a dog bites a postie, nothing happens to the dog. same goes for my job.... im a bt engineer and if i got bitten (and we do sometimes) i wouldn't want the dog put to sleep over it. you cant blame a dog for being a dog. however this attack was very different from these situations, it was unprovoked and was less an attack and more a mauling. there is no doubt in my mind that dog needed to be destroyed, none whatsoever and i love dogs... but it is true.
> 
> it'd be foolish to say 'there are no bad dogs, just bad owners'. Whilst this may be true 99% of the time, theres always one thats just 'not right'.


LOL well surprisingly enough i have one of the rare breeds that acctually love postmen, bin men, policemen, anyone in uniform and most importantly vets lol 

They are a breed that basically love people and the attention people give them thats why they are such easy dogs to steal :bash:


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

essexchondro said:


> I think we needs to start recognising that some breeds are more dangerous than others (on average) and restrictions should be introduced accordingly.


I have to disagree with you there. I would love to come up with a really convincing fact based arguement supposrting my opinion but I dont have one. I dont think any breed should be banned. If someone buys a rotty and it kills their kids its not anyone elses fault but their own so why punish everyone for their mistakes. It was a simple avoidable accident i.e it should of been muzzled, kids shouldnt of been near it etc etc. It irresponsible ownership that causes these deaths.


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## Marinam2 (Sep 4, 2007)

After reading the full story today of what actually occurred i am not surprised in the slightest. The two "adults" that were in "charge" were 16 and 18. The child's mother was the 18yr old girl and the Aunt was 16 the aunt was left in charge of three children and all the children were unsupervised including the actions of the 7yr old as she took the baby to "meet" the dog. It occurred at the grandmothers house where granny had, had the rottweiler bitch for only 6 months. The dog was previously living in a yard where the dog had been trained to guard and had been an "outside dog" all her life to this point the dog was 2.5 years old so not accustomed to strangers children or fully acclimatised to her new house yet!!


Marina


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes this is very tragic and you really feel for the poor little kiddie, but what can you say, adults obviously knew the score, the dog has been brought up in a 'certain way' which will ultimately make it behave in certain ways in certain situations........I guess it would be like not teaching your kids the green cross code and the dangers of roads but then telling them to go play by the road.......it's obviously gonna end in tears :bash:



Marinam2 said:


> After reading the full story today of what actually occurred i am not surprised in the slightest. The two "adults" that were in "charge" were 16 and 18. The child's mother was the 18yr old girl and the Aunt was 16 the aunt was left in charge of three children and all the children were unsupervised including the actions of the 7yr old as she took the baby to "meet" the dog. It occurred at the grandmothers house where granny had, had the rottweiler bitch for only 6 months. The dog was previously living in a yard where the dog had been trained to guard and had been an "outside dog" all her life to this point the dog was 2.5 years old so not accustomed to strangers children or fully acclimatised to her new house yet!!
> 
> 
> Marina


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I have to disagree with you there. I would love to come up with a really convincing fact based arguement supposrting my opinion but I dont have one. I dont think any breed should be banned. If someone buys a rotty and it kills their kids its not anyone elses fault but their own so why punish everyone for their mistakes. It was a simple avoidable accident i.e it should of been muzzled, kids shouldnt of been near it etc etc. It irresponsible ownership that causes these deaths.


But you must surely acknowledge that some breeds of dog are more dangerous than others? Yes of course you do come across docile rotts and pit-bulls, but when making a generalisation (*and you have to make these to pass any law*) I don't think that anyone would seriously argue that dog breeds are all equal in terms of their aggressive tendancies and their physical capabilities to enact those tendancies should they decide to do so. 

The problem with dogs (and this is where it differs from venomous snakes) is that they are allowed into the public domain; in the parks, the streets etc where they don't just pose a (potential) threat to the owners' children, they pose a (potential) threat to every member of the public!

If we can accept, therefore, that all breeds are not equal in this respect, then surely it is only reasonable to ask for some kind of sliding scale of regulations (ie its easier to buy a poodle than a rott) and possibly banning those breeds at the extreme end of the scale??


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> But you must surely acknowledge that some breeds of dog are more dangerous than others? Yes of course you do come across docile rotts and pit-bulls, but when making a generalisation (*and you have to make these to pass any law*) I don't think that anyone would seriously argue that dog breeds are all equal in terms of their aggressive tendancies and their physical capabilities to enact those tendancies should they decide to do so.
> 
> The problem with dogs (and this is where it differs from venomous snakes) is that they are allowed into the public domain; in the parks, the streets etc where they don't just pose a (potential) threat to the owners' children, they pose a (potential) threat to every member of the public!
> 
> If we can accept, therefore, that all breeds are not equal in this respect, then surely it is only reasonable to ask for some kind of sliding scale of regulations (ie its easier to buy a poodle than a rott) and possibly banning those breeds at the extreme end of the scale??


 
And yet again it boils down to this.................the dog had not had the right up bringing so there for knew her job as a gaurd dog and was doing just that!

Like Phil pointed out................If people took the time to research a breed before they go out an buy it then they know what they are getting into ! Like for example i know all my dogs are working dogs and also hunters so.............im not gonna be a stupid idiot and take them up onto a farm am i ? as we know what would happen there hey 

So all it takes is some reading and even asking people who already own the breed the pro's and con's of the breed = happy dogs and happy owners!

So many huskies are out there for adoption at the moment cos people do not do the research before they buy a pup they see a film like Eight Below and beg for a Snow Dog grrrrrrrrrrrrr i hate that term for them.............then when they a few months down the line actually start doing what the dogs in the film Snow Dogs do thats when people decide they cant cope...............see that aint just a film to make you laff its what they are actually like in real life............but someone who hasnt done their research wont know that!

So at the end of the day it all boils down to common sense and research !


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## Niccired (Apr 13, 2007)

Thing is when the government brought in the DDA which saw the banning off pit bulls everyone thought it would solve things but look what happend last year- that poor little girl got killed by her uncles pit bull so it obviously hasnt worked as they hoped as pit bulls are still in the uk! I heard a dog trainer on the news the other day claiming he sees pit bulls every other day in his line of work?!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Niccired said:


> Thing is when the government brought in the DDA which saw the banning off pit bulls everyone thought it would solve things but look what happend last year- that poor little girl got killed by her uncles pit bull so it obviously hasnt worked as they hoped as pit bulls are still in the uk! I heard a dog trainer on the news the other day claiming he sees pit bulls every other day in his line of work?!


 
we have pit bulls everywhere here in my neighborhood. they are banned in the city limits...well not really. you have to build a certain enclosure and have proper liability insurance...it's very expensive though. some other things like having them chipped and stuff. no one ever does it. they are almost always kept by the thugs around here. it's a macho thing really. having them illeagally just adds to their bad boy mystique. cops just drive past the guys walking them.....welcome to america!:crazy:


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Well to be honest the reason all the gangsters want Rottweilers and Pit-Bulls is because if they want to teach someone a lesson they lock them in a room with one of these breed of dogs that is on purposely made aggressive so it causes terrible injury to the person they want taught a lesson!!

Any breed of dog when brought up badly can be vicious and a danger, it's just that Rottweilers and Pit-Bulls can do a lot more damage than a Jack Russell!!

That's my view on it anyway!!: victory:


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## It's corny but.. (Feb 7, 2007)

It's the prey-drive in dogs that ultimately controls whether or not something like this happens. A dog with a strong prey drive may appear humble and well trained when the master of the house is around, but as soon as he turns his back.. If your dog exhibits strong prey drive it's your responsibility to ensure that he never gets the opportunity to do what this dog did. We have a staffie and a staffie/american pit bull cross, and we would NEVER leave them in a situation whereby anyone other than us would be going out to them. They are loving and obedient, but they have very strong prey drives, and the lust of the chase will 60/40 beat their loyalty to me.
I'm devastated for the family of the dog, because whilst a rottweiler is known to be a strong and sometimes aggressive dog, they probably didn't understand his behaviours as well as they could, and that is something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> And yet again it boils down to this.................the dog had not had the right up bringing so there for knew her job as a gaurd dog and was doing just that!
> 
> Like Phil pointed out................If people took the time to research a breed before they go out an buy it then they know what they are getting into ! Like for example i know all my dogs are working dogs and also hunters so.............im not gonna be a stupid idiot and take them up onto a farm am i ? as we know what would happen there hey
> 
> ...


*But is doesn't just boil down to up-bringing!!* If it did then every dog would be born a "clean slate", so to speak, and nurture would account 100% for how it turns out and acts. The fact of the matter is that genetics does count and you are never starting from a clean slate. To try and suggest otherwise is contrary to the whole theory of evolution and the same speeded up man made process that has occurred with dogs. All the different breeds have different characters and (genetic) dispositions. Of course, through nurture we can either encourage or combat those dispositions, but those dispositions are still there and they still play a part and can potentially surface at any time.

Of course common sense should play a part...thats exactly why a breed with in-built aggression designed to heighten its abilities as a guard dog doesn't make such a good "pet" candidate as a dog with inbuilt tendancies to hurd things and round them up. In the latter children/other animals may get pushed about a bit, in the former they get attacked! Surely anyone that does their research, therfore, wouldn't opt for a rott for "pet" purposes??

Sorry to keep labouring the point but I just don't understand why we can't accept that some breeds pose a greater threat than others. Lumping all dog breeds together (or saying it is all about individual dogs and that you can't make generalisations) is like saying that all snake species pose an equal threat or that some cobras are deadly whereas some are harmless. Yes you get more docile cobras, just like you do more docile rotts, but the capacity to be otherwise is still there! A cobra isn't a corn snake, and a rott isn't a Corgi!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

pitts here are not trained at all for the most part. they majority of thugs that own them don't know the first thing about a dog...they are lucky to even get their puppy shots. these guys, and i can speak first hand because i hang with them sometimes, only do things that they think will make them mean. they are beaten and punished very cruel. one guy i know even puts gun powder from his 9mm ammo in the dogs food thinking that that makes 'em mean. and yes, before you ask, dog fighting is alive and well here where i live...not just the states but i'm talking about right in my own neighbor hood. these guys are'nt wannabe's either. they are the real deal. i'm cool with them but i know better than to say anything to them about their dogs. it is a shame though. i've see some fine, lovable pits in my day but when all they know is abuse and their fighting instincts are encouraged, well...people get hurt...


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> pitts here are not trained at all for the most part. they majority of thugs that own them don't know the first thing about a dog...they are lucky to even get their puppy shots. these guys, and i can speak first hand because i hang with them sometimes, only do things that they think will make them mean. they are beaten and punished very cruel. one guy i know even puts gun powder from his 9mm ammo in the dogs food thinking that that makes 'em mean. and yes, before you ask, dog fighting is alive and well here where i live...not just the states but i'm talking about right in my own neighbor hood. these guys are'nt wannabe's either. they are the real deal. i'm cool with them but i know better than to say anything to them about their dogs. it is a shame though. i've see some fine, lovable pits in my day but when all they know is abuse and their fighting instincts are encouraged, well...people get hurt...


Its the age old "chicken and egg" debate. Undoubtedly these dogs are bad partly because they have bad owners, but why do bad people/owners tend to go for these dog breeds in the first place?? If it is all down to up-bringing then surely we'd see a more even spread of dog breeds amongst these types of people? The answer, obviously, is that pit-bulls, rotts etc etc have more "potential" to be the menace that the gangster type person craves.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i'm an older guy so i remember all the phases...first it was dobermen pinchers that were the bad boyz then rottweilers and now it's pit bulls...pits have been the top bad dog to have for quite a while now.....next it'll be some big crazy breed that hardly anyone keeps right now...there are some european breeds that are big and bad, i forget the names.


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

at the end off the day its never down to the dog. they are and always be wild animals no matter what ppl think if a dog getts pissed of its gona fight and bite its natural instinct its the same as people bare nuckle boxing ect all the fights people have and kill people and they dnt get put down so y should the dogs they are just doing what comes naturally to them the instinct to live same with snakes the snakes bite becasue the scared and want to protect its self 


personaly in my own views its not the animals involed thats the problm its us as people its like people are taking away land and wounder why the tigers ect are attacking them 



luke


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> at the end off the day its never down to the dog. they are and always be wild animals no matter what ppl think if a dog getts pissed of its gona fight and bite its natural instinct its the same as people bare nuckle boxing ect all the fights people have and kill people and they dnt get put down so y should the dogs they are just doing what comes naturally to them the instinct to live same with snakes the snakes bite becasue the scared and want to protect its self
> 
> 
> personaly in my own views its not the animals involed thats the problm its us as people its like people are taking away land and wounder why the tigers ect are attacking them


That's exactly right. The dog is never anything more than what we've made it. In the case of rotts we, through generations of selective breeding, have made them aggressive animals because this is a desirable trait in a dog designed to keep guard and protect a territory. It's up to people to do their research on the various breeds and then select the one who's traits most closely resemble what you'd want in a "pet". I just don't see any way in which the characteristics of a rott make it compatable with the term "pet"


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## terrypin (Dec 27, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> *But is doesn't just boil down to up-bringing!!* If it did then every dog would be born a "clean slate", so to speak, and nurture would account 100% for how it turns out and acts. The fact of the matter is that genetics does count and you are never starting from a clean slate. To try and suggest otherwise is contrary to the whole theory of evolution and the same speeded up man made process that has occurred with dogs. All the different breeds have different characters and (genetic) dispositions. Of course, through nurture we can either encourage or combat those dispositions, but those dispositions are still there and they still play a part and can potentially surface at any time.
> 
> Of course common sense should play a part...thats exactly why a breed with in-built aggression designed to heighten its abilities as a guard dog doesn't make such a good "pet" candidate as a dog with inbuilt tendancies to hurd things and round them up. In the latter children/other animals may get pushed about a bit, in the former they get attacked! Surely anyone that does their research, therfore, wouldn't opt for a rott for "pet" purposes??
> 
> Sorry to keep labouring the point but I just don't understand why we can't accept that some breeds pose a greater threat than others. Lumping all dog breeds together (or saying it is all about individual dogs and that you can't make generalisations) is like saying that all snake species pose an equal threat or that some cobras are deadly whereas some are harmless. Yes you get more docile cobras, just like you do more docile rotts, but the capacity to be otherwise is still there! A cobra isn't a corn snake, and a rott isn't a Corgi!


hi you say people should do their reseach on the breed of dog before buying yet in the same statement you refer to rotties as guard dogs in compaparison to herding dogs which is what the breed was originally used for im sorry but do own a rottie or do you have any experience of the breed at all other than what you read in the press.

terry


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

"they are and always be wild animals no matter what ppl think" -lukendaniel

well like anything, they do have instincts but dogs are not wild. they are domesticated and wholly manufactured by man. left to their own devices, the best they can do is become feral and live on the fringes of society like they do in so many parts of the world.........i'm just saying...


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

I do still feel sorry for the little ones parents. It must be awful that they will have to live their lives knowing they could have thier little boy had they not left him in the care of another child.

Any animal, I agree, needs to be watched to a certain degree. There are few exceptions where we can say we wholly trust an animal with our children and in such circumstances, we must deal with the consequence of any actions that happen.

It is so, so sad that a little child has lost his life, more so at this time of year, and it is also sad that the dog has got to that point and had to be destroyed.

What is more sad is that this Christmas, more and more people will have bought "cute" puppies and in 5 years time, we may face seeing the same headlines


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> hi you say people should do their reseach on the breed of dog before buying yet in the same statement you refer to rotties as guard dogs in compaparison to herding dogs which is what the breed was originally used for im sorry but do own a rottie or do you have any experience of the breed at all other than what you read in the press.
> 
> terry


Yes, my step-daughter was bitten by one (her aunts whilst we were all sitting in the living room before someone says the dog was provoked). Glad someone finally asked as I didn't want to bring it up myself because I have a perfectly valid argument without reverting to that.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I dont really agree that pit bulls are more aggresive than a jack russel for example. Would you want a jack russel banned too? I know people with pts,rotties,dobes and all other kinds of dogs in the world and their kids have never been killed. I would estimate there to be hundreds of thousands of rotweiler owners and would say there have maybe been a handfull of reported killings by them. If you do the percentages it would probably work out at around 1% of rotweilers have killed or maimed someone. That doesnt really suggest that they are naturally predisposed to aggresion or there would be a hell of alot more attacks etc. Same with pitbulls. I haven't really heard of many reported attacks that involved a well bred pit that was brought up properly in a family home. They usually involve a back yard bred dog thats been trained to fight and be aggresive. The media wont be interested in reporting the truth behind how these dogs were trained and brought up though because that wouldn't sell papers. At the end of the day its all down to responsible ownership and you should never ban any breed of dog just because of the actions of a handful of nuggets who shouldnt own any dog let alone a big powerful one capable of damage in the wrong hands.

YouTube - A Pit Bull Tribute


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I dont really agree that pit bulls are more aggresive than a jack russel for example. Would you want a jack russel banned too? I know people with pts,rotties,dobes and all other kinds of dogs in the world and their kids have never been killed. I would estimate there to be hundreds of thousands of rotweiler owners and would say there have maybe been a handfull of reported killings by them. If you do the percentages it would probably work out at around 1% of rotweilers have killed or maimed someone. That doesnt really suggest that they are naturally predisposed to aggresion or there would be a hell of alot more attacks etc. Same with pitbulls. I haven't really heard of many reported attacks that involved a well bred pit that was brought up properly in a family home. They usually involve a back yard bred dog thats been trained to fight and be aggresive. The media wont be interested in reporting the truth behind how these dogs were trained and brought up though because that wouldn't sell papers. At the end of the day its all down to responsible ownership and you should never ban any breed of dog just because of the actions of a handful of nuggets who shouldnt own any dog let alone a big powerful one capable of damage in the wrong hands.


Its not just about the aggression, its also the physical capability to enact that aggression. A 1 stone Jack Russell can't do the same amount of damage as a 10 stone rott, even if it wanted to. 

You're quite right, 1% (working on your estimate) doesn't sound much. But if 1% of rotts have killed someone by your own estimate thats thousands of deaths by rottweiler. And if it is actually 1%, then I bet the figure for deaths by Jack Russell is about 0.000001%. (This making up of statistics is fun, isn't it! :lol2.

Of course its about responsible ownership. My point is that responsible owners shouldn't choose aggressive breeds in the first place!!


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## aie_boa (Nov 7, 2007)

I Personally Think Thats It Stupid Too Have Such A Big Or Puirchase Such A Big Dog With Small Vunerable Children!!! There Has Been So Many Cases Of Children Getting Ripped Ot Bits By Dogs And People Just Don't Learn They Still Continue To Buy These Big Dogs!!!


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## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi... not had time to read all the posts so sorry if im repeating anything... but the main problem here is ignorance... seems quite possible in this case that sort of people who leave kids in charge of young kids around a dog, are the same sort of people who would bring an adult rotty into their home with a baby. I read they had the dog 6 months and it was 2 and a half years old, I think, so cannot have 100% confidence that it was raised in an appropriate way. I think a rotty is no more aggressive than most other breeds, if you raise it in a stable environment! Just a shame its always the kids and the dog who end up suffering...


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## terrypin (Dec 27, 2007)

rottweilers are far less likely to be aggressive than jack russells in my opinion they are a naturally dominant self assured confident breed and if treated correctly they will be loyal and obedient they do require a certain degree of training particularly while young you should protect them from bad situations and experiences when they are young do not encourage aggression and no play fighting or tests of strength as working dogs they will become bored if they dont have a task to do regular lead walks to check out the neighbourhood helps and you will find somerotties follow you around constantly as they want to be involved with everything you do when walking the dog introduce him to everything to build his confidence as he grows and never let him walk in front, as you lead and he follows they will get the message fairly quickly this leading the hunt enforces your position as lead animal i am lucky in that my dog came from a very good breeder and has an excellent personality yet i never forget what he is and what such a powerful animal is capable of. i researched the breed carefully before i decided to get one and i am very pleased he is a great companion i use my mind to control his behaviour although physically i am still capable if a situation should arise and he is attacked by another large dog i will protect him because i dont want him to feel he needs to protect himself .he is a pleasure to own and very calm in the house i am 51 years old and neither am i a drug dealer or tough guy just a regular bloke who enjoys the company of an intelligent animal.

terry


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## Niccired (Apr 13, 2007)

aie_boa said:


> I Personally Think Thats It Stupid Too Have Such A Big Or Puirchase Such A Big Dog With Small Vunerable Children!!! There Has Been So Many Cases Of Children Getting Ripped Ot Bits By Dogs And People Just Don't Learn They Still Continue To Buy These Big Dogs!!!


 
That is a really stupid comment!!!! if you had spent the time reading up on rotties and staffs for eg you will notice alot of the info says they are BRILLIANT companions for children/adults- this is why we got a rottie!!

Thing is there will have been thousands of attacks on children by the likes of labs, terriers ect,ect-i was one of them! its just they dont get the press rotties do because there is so many ignorant people out there who want to see the breed banned!!

If you read half the things wrote in the papers about rotties they all say things like "devil dog" or have huge pictures of aggessive rotties with their jaws wide open- which just isnt the case!!! Its like saying if a 14yr old killed someone- all 14yr olds are the same?!!!!! just because its happend with a few rotties does not mean they are all like that!!! Everything in the world has the power to cause devistation- that doesnt mean we ban everything does it?!!!!


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## RedGex (Dec 29, 2007)

Terry,
Its a shame not everyone is as responsible as you when it comes to getting and looking after their dog... just goes to show how dogs behave is down to the owners and not the breed...
I think the only reason rotties and staffies/pitbull type dogs hit the headlines is when they attack they are designed to do damage, and that is what they do. If a yorkie attacks, which I am sure many do.... chances are you won't be so bad off... certainly not anything for the press to bother with.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I think the only reason rotties and staffies/pitbull type dogs hit the headlines is when they attack they are designed to do damage, and that is what they do. If a yorkie attacks, which I am sure many do.... chances are you won't be so bad off... certainly not anything for the press to bother with.


Here, here. Exactly what I said earlier; the capacity to do damage is just as important as the in-build level of aggression (or lack of). I have no issue with rotts or pit-bulls. They are what we've made them, after all. And I have no problem accepting that a sizable percentage of these dogs will never do anything bad. But my point is that if all you want is a "pet" dog for companionship etc then you have no need to go for a breed which is predisposed towards aggressiveness (even though your animal may never show it). You can argue that your individual specimen isn't aggressive, but you can't argue that as a breed they are not.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

essexchondro said:


> You can argue that your individual specimen isn't aggressive, but you can't argue that as a breed they are not.


Yes you can. Staffordshire Bull Terriers, which are often demonised by the press, were bred to be NOT aggresive to humans. If they showed any aggresion to humans especially children they would be destroyed immediately. Thats why Staffords now are nine times out of ten brilliant with children and such attention loving softies that they are targets for dog theifs because they are so soft. That is responsible ownership that i am talking about unfortunately every chav after a few bucks are breeding anything these days and the ones you hear in the press are usually cross-breeds that have been trained for fighting. But dont let the facts get in the way of a good argument for banning breeds of dogs and having thousands of peoples family pets put to sleep due to the actions of a few idiots. I know what you mean about people choosing the wrong breed as a pet and I agree that some breeds aren't ideal as family pets but there is no need to start banning the breeds involved.


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

IMO usually the worse breed to get as a pet are collies. most collies that are "just pets" ive seen are nippy and hardly trained. i have a collie X myself that we rescued and shes nippy. only reason you dont hear about collies is they dont have the "look" of a vicious dog. 
its definately a case of picking the breed to demonise. not so long ago it was bullmastiffs if i remember correctly. its a real shame. ethnic cleansing for dogs.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Niccired said:


> That is a really stupid comment!!!! if you had spent the time reading up on rotties and staffs for eg you will notice alot of the info says they are BRILLIANT companions for children/adults- this is why we got a rottie!!
> 
> Thing is there will have been thousands of attacks on children by the likes of labs, terriers ect,ect-i was one of them! its just they dont get the press rotties do because there is so many ignorant people out there who want to see the breed banned!!
> 
> If you read half the things wrote in the papers about rotties they all say things like "devil dog" or have huge pictures of aggessive rotties with their jaws wide open- which just isnt the case!!! Its like saying if a 14yr old killed someone- all 14yr olds are the same?!!!!! just because its happend with a few rotties does not mean they are all like that!!! Everything in the world has the power to cause devistation- that doesnt mean we ban everything does it?!!!!


I totally agree with that !!

And also for the record i too have been viciously attacked by a dog too and the breed of that dog was a Boxer................a 8 month old pup i was walking across the local moor when i was younger had just covered a paper round for someone and this boxer came flying out of nowhere and practically ripped my school uniform off my back in the attack i recieved facial cuts and bruises and cuts all over my arms and legs my back my front i looked a complete mess full of puncture marks cuts an bruises 

I knew the dog too..............he wasnt being brought up well by the owners they didnt have the time of day for him training wise or anything 

I was asked what i wanted to do about the attack and i said i DO NOT want the dog PTS so my other option was the dog be taken from the owners put through intensive training and rehomed..............thats the option i asked for


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> Yes you can. Staffordshire Bull Terriers, which are often demonised by the press, were bred to be NOT aggresive to humans. If they showed any aggresion to humans especially children they would be destroyed immediately. Thats why Staffords now are nine times out of ten brilliant with children and such attention loving softies that they are targets for dog theifs because they are so soft. That is responsible ownership that i am talking about unfortunately every chav after a few bucks are breeding anything these days and the ones you hear in the press are usually cross-breeds that have been trained for fighting. But dont let the facts get in the way of a good argument for banning breeds of dogs and having thousands of peoples family pets put to sleep due to the actions of a few idiots. I know what you mean about people choosing the wrong breed as a pet and I agree that some breeds aren't ideal as family pets but there is no need to start banning the breeds involved


Andy, this thread is about Rottweilers, not Staffs. I've never once mentioned Staffordshire Bull Terriers let alone comment on their aggressiveness or suitability as pets. Now who's not letting the facts get in the way of a good argument?!?!?!:lol2:

And for what its worth, I never said anything should be banned _per se_ just that their aggressiveness renders then unsuitable as "pets".


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LOL gotta say this is the best debate i have been in so nice when people can debate about something properly with it not getting ugly or aggressive :lol2:


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Yeah, in my experience you can get some collies that are quite naughty and in some cases very naughty......but remember they are hearding dogs and probably the most intelligent dog out there.....they are also very high energy dogs......which needs to be drained/used up.........to me it's no use just having something like a collie and keeping it in a yard all day, it'll be bored stiff but more so will have SO MUCH pent up energy that then it results in over-hearding.....so basically anything that moves is seen by the dog somthing that needs keeping in line, whether it be a car, cyclist, postman etc etc.............

Lack of exercise = Excess energy = Boisterous behaviour......stll do nothing about it then it may = Aggression......

Some may think this is sligtly off topic or maybe think I'm wrong.......I beg to differ with those people :whistling2:



daikenkai said:


> IMO usually the worse breed to get as a pet are collies. most collies that are "just pets" ive seen are nippy and hardly trained. i have a collie X myself that we rescued and shes nippy. only reason you dont hear about collies is they dont have the "look" of a vicious dog.
> its definately a case of picking the breed to demonise. not so long ago it was bullmastiffs if i remember correctly. its a real shame. ethnic cleansing for dogs.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

labmad said:


> Yeah, in my experience you can get some collies that are quite naughty and in some cases very naughty......but remember they are hearding dogs and probably the most intelligent dog out there.....they are also very high energy dogs......which needs to be drained/used up.........to me it's no use just having something like a collie and keeping it in a yard all day, it'll be bored stiff but more so will have SO MUCH pent up energy that then it results in over-hearding.....so basically anything that moves is seen by the dog somthing that needs keeping in line, whether it be a car, cyclist, postman etc etc.............
> 
> Lack of exercise = Excess energy = Boisterous behaviour......stll do nothing about it then it may = Aggression......
> 
> Some may think this is sligtly off topic or maybe think I'm wrong.......I beg to differ with those people :whistling2:


I think it went off topic along time ago really lol 

Thats so very true like my dogs are the same they are soooo intelligent and need stimulation all the time if they dont get that it shows lol


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

just taken a quick glance back



essexchondro said:


> I never said I had a god given right to tell people what to do. All I was doing was highlighting the fact that rotts are an aggressive breed, as breeds go, and as such questioned why people should be allowed to keep them in a "pet" situation when there are plenty of alternatives. If we, as a society, can decide that individuals can't keep American Pit-Bulls (or pass any other restrictive laws for that matter), why can't I suggest extending the ban to other breeds?






essexchondro said:


> But you must surely acknowledge that some breeds of dog are more dangerous than others? Yes of course you do come across docile rotts and pit-bulls, but when making a generalisation (*and you have to make these to pass any law*) I don't think that anyone would seriously argue that dog breeds are all equal in terms of their aggressive tendancies and their physical capabilities to enact those tendancies should they decide to do so.
> 
> The problem with dogs (and this is where it differs from venomous snakes) is that they are allowed into the public domain; in the parks, the streets etc where they don't just pose a (potential) threat to the owners' children, they pose a (potential) threat to every member of the public!
> 
> If we can accept, therefore, that all breeds are not equal in this respect, then surely it is only reasonable to ask for some kind of sliding scale of regulations (ie its easier to buy a poodle than a rott) and possibly banning those breeds at the extreme end of the scale??




just something for you to comment on



essexchondro said:


> Andy, this thread is about Rottweilers, not Staffs. I've never once mentioned Staffordshire Bull Terriers let alone comment on their aggressiveness or suitability as pets. Now who's not letting the facts get in the way of a good argument?!?!?!:lol2:
> 
> And for what its worth, I never said anything should be banned _per se_ just that their aggressiveness renders then unsuitable as "pets".


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

essexchondro said:


> Andy, this thread is about Rottweilers, not Staffs. I've never once mentioned Staffordshire Bull Terriers let alone comment on their aggressiveness or suitability as pets. Now who's not letting the facts get in the way of a good argument?!?!?!:lol2:
> 
> And for what its worth, I never said anything should be banned _per se_ just that their aggressiveness renders then unsuitable as "pets".


Sorry I was talking in general of the ignorance of people who believe everything they read in the papers about certain breeds. 

If Rotties aggresiveness renders them unsuitable as pets then how come many many thousands of people keep them as pets in this country alone with no problems whatsoever? I find it hard to believe that because of a handful of incidents, which are usually more than likely caused by irresponsible ownership, people suddenly call for the bannning of certain breeds! Lets forget about all the other thousands of rotties that have been faithful pets for decades to countless people and the probably hundreds of thousands worldwide that have been faithful pets lets get them put to sleep quick because they are predisposed to aggresiveness! It just does not make sense punishing all these people and all these dogs because of idiots making mistakes. I accept that there are some dogs who are just bad and can attack but thats what you have to accept when you buy a dog. I know you are not suggesting we kill all the rotties etc but there are people out there who would happily ban and euthanise many peoples pet dogs.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> just taken a quick glance back
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *essexchondro*
> ...


Right, so in my first quote I said why can't I *suggest* it as an idea, in the second quote I said *possibly* banning those at the extreme end. So, like I said, I never said anything *should* be banned per se. (Nice try by taking those quotes out of context and the flow of the discussion, though!)

Next time maybe you can take more than a "quick glance" and actually read the full posts in relation to other posters' comments!?!

Stuart


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

i have actually followed this thread and read every post thoroughly as you well know since i have made responses all the way through. by quick glance i meant there could have been more quotes but i took the first random two.
i quoted your post in its entirety both times so i didn't take them out of context.
and if you weren't "suggesting" banning rotties (they are after all what this discussion is about) what is at the exteme end of the scale that you want to ban.

like i said before i really don't believe that banning any breed is the solution it just sends irresponsible owners undercover. and its the responsible ones that suffer by having to have their gentle family pets put to sleep.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> have actually followed this thread and read every post thoroughly as you well know since i have made responses all the way through. by quick glance i meant there could have been more quotes but i took the first random two.
> i quoted your post in its entirety both times so i didn't take them out of context.
> and if you weren't "suggesting" banning rotties (they are after all what this discussion is about) what is at the exteme end of the scale that you want to ban.
> 
> like i said before i really don't believe that banning any breed is the solution it just sends irresponsible owners undercover. and its the responsible ones that suffer by having to have their gentle family pets put to sleep.


Yes you have quoted my quotes in there entirety, but you have taken them out of their context as responses to previous posts. Furthermore, you also chose to highlight (in red) specific sections of my quotes which changes the emphasis of what I was actually saying. For example, if we actually look at the first quote in its entirety I was actually questioning why I couldn't suggest banning them even though I don't have a "God given" right to do so. I was actually making more of a point about my right to suggest it as a possibility, rather than suggesting it be done. Lets read the full sentence that you chopped in half with your highlingting;

_If we, as a society, can decide that individuals can't keep American Pit-Bulls (or pass any other restrictive laws for that matter), why can't I suggest extending the ban to other breeds?_


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I know where your coming from Stuart but it wasn't we as a society who banned them I dont even think anyone from any dog keeping societies were involved in the DDA. It was a knee jerk reaction to a couple of attacks which were blown out of all proportion by the media. The DDA has been proven to be a flawed law time and time again and should be abolished or at least reviewed IMO. They need to concentrate punishing the individuals concerned not the breed of dogs these people are using for fighting etc, not concentrating on which other breeds to ban next.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> I know where your coming from Stuart but it wasn't we as a society who banned them I dont even think anyone from any dog keeping societies were involved in the DDA. It was a knee jerk reaction to a couple of attacks which were blown out of all proportion by the media. The DDA has been proven to be a flawed law time and time again and should be abolished or at least reviewed IMO. They need to concentrate punishing the individuals concerned not the breed of dogs these people are using for fighting etc, not concentrating on which other breeds to ban next.


Our glorious government never consult anyone in the know when they introduce new laws :lol2:. I don't actually think rotts should be banned. Like I said earlier;



> Just like corn snakes and royal pythons make better "pets" than Cobras, so certain dog species make better "pets" than others. Please note that I'm not saying Rotts etc should be outlawed (any more than I'm saying Cobras should), just that they should be left to the serious canine hobbyists and people who'll keep them as they've been designed to be kept, not by the average person who'll have it sleeping on the sofa!


Suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

cheers

Stuart


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

I agree with some of what your saying I suppose it just annoys me because my breed will more than likely be the next to be targeted by the ignorant masses who take the Sun and Daily Sport as gospel! (not saying you do by the way): victory:


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## royalnking (Mar 26, 2007)

going round in circles is never productive, yes we will just have to agree to disagree :lol2:


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## Chicco (Jan 1, 2008)

Hiya. 
I put this post on today on a different thread about rotties. 

I guess it would of helped to keep them all together. 

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/off-topic-chat/80561-rottweillers-9.html#post1157607

Comments welcome.


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

labmad said:


> Yeah, in my experience you can get some collies that are quite naughty and in some cases very naughty......but remember they are hearding dogs and probably the most intelligent dog out there.....they are also very high energy dogs......which needs to be drained/used up.........to me it's no use just having something like a collie and keeping it in a yard all day, it'll be bored stiff but more so will have SO MUCH pent up energy that then it results in over-hearding.....so basically anything that moves is seen by the dog somthing that needs keeping in line, whether it be a car, cyclist, postman etc etc.............
> 
> Lack of exercise = Excess energy = Boisterous behaviour......stll do nothing about it then it may = Aggression......
> 
> Some may think this is sligtly off topic or maybe think I'm wrong.......I beg to differ with those people :whistling2:


yup, definately agree with this. thats the point im making though, people get collies then think they'll just lie around all day and its just not going to happen. Its just a case of people going "oo i want that dog cos its pretty!" then realising theyre in way over their heads, sometimes with tragic consequences.


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## kennedykrew (Jul 31, 2006)

My only thoughts are i wouldnt have a dog anywhere near a young'un.
I was attacked by 2 alsations as a 10-11 year old; it hurt!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

daikenkai said:


> yup, definately agree with this. thats the point im making though, people get collies then think they'll just lie around all day and its just not going to happen. Its just a case of people going "oo i want that dog cos its pretty!" then realising theyre in way over their heads, sometimes with tragic consequences.


 
yeps such a shame as this is the same thing that happens with huskies too :censor:


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## Chicco (Jan 1, 2008)

If you have taken the time to read my other thread - can I just point out that even the advert on this page 

">*Free UK Pet Classifieds* Over 150,000 Free Classified Ads Puppies, Kittens - Sale - Adoption 
Free Classified ads - classifieds


Whilst advertising in this case to animal aware people, (yourselves) in general is going out nationwide and rotties are just "pennies" on there with no assessment of dog or person, no criteria laid down as we do with decent rescue centres and decent breeders, and with the press labelling our dogs as "aggressive" and "killers" anyone that wants a dog they can turn into a hardnut by naming it Tyson and sticking a huge studded collar round its neck, playing rough games and teasing it, leaving it tied on a chain in a backyard, can do so ---- just like that. 

That's why I am saying in my thread (link earlier) we do need help, we want some sort of legislation that stops these dogs getting into the wrong hands.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/off-topic-chat/80561-rottweillers-9.html#post1157607
Link to my other thread


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## leggy (Jan 18, 2007)

Chicco said:


> Hiya.
> I put this post on today on a different thread about rotties.
> 
> I guess it would of helped to keep them all together.
> ...


Just read your post and i agree with all you said: victory: Ive not posted about this but my hubby did under same username. We have 5 very noisy boys. My 7 yr old rottie has been the most calm loving dog i could wish for. My boys have played with her can touch her food not that i let them but it has happend. Thay have fallen on her trodden on her all the things that kids do and never has she shown any anger. She was bout home as an 8week old pup and loved as a family pet. She was traind as all dogs should be. No breed of dogs is dangrouse just the owners. I have always said an untraind dog is a dangrouse dog and thay are not to blam for that.For the last yr my dog has been the target of local kids who find it funny to pic on her due to the attacks. this has coused her a lot of stress and lots of fall outs with locals. Its sad as she was loved by all before this.Please pm me the address for the rotti forum i dident know ther was one: victory:


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## bugdude (Dec 5, 2007)

*dog's*

if owner's have there dog tied up in there garden and use them as a guarddog and they have not been socialised then it is not the dog's fault. if a dog is a biter then it is down to the owner's to take responsability to keep the dog and other people safe so the owner should be punished. as any dog can attack big or small.: victory:


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## -matty-b- (Dec 13, 2007)

leggy said:


> I have always said an untraind dog is a dangrouse dog and thay are not to blam for that.


i was at a show and it had a dog show in and there was a collie sitting next to me and a rotti came running down a bridge and attacked the collie for no apparent reason. i absolutely :censor: myself. the rotti was one of the show dogs.

nothing against them someone i no has one that has grown up with a small child and never shown any aggresion to anyone


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## leggy (Jan 18, 2007)

My rotti was bit by a jack russel she now hates them and is scared of them the owner told me it had never happend befor but if you look closely at the home the owner and so on you will find that things are not as perfect as thay seem. Just because it was a show dog dosent mean its well traind or bout up just means it traind to be shown. Its a sham thay are great dogs and if lookked after and traind are great pets but when it go's wrong boy do's it go wrong and we all get to hear about it:bash:


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## louie (Mar 9, 2005)

We keep Great Danes and French Mastiffs and it annoys me to think a large breed does something wrong and the large breed is all around the internet and newspapers where as a small dog does some damage and thats just fine. 
We know some one who has never had a problem with there large breeds of dogs.But when her jackrussel turned on her she had two fingers hanging off her hand and had to have 60 stitches on her hand but thats ok because its a small dog right? 
The dog was put to sleep the following day. 
However if this had of been a great dane or a large breed it would have been all over the papers.


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## kitty (Jan 2, 2008)

i really dont know because a baby is a baby ya know. erm well ok heres my opinion. any dog can turn on ya and the baby shouldnt have been left unsupervised with the baby. everything is down to the owner not the dog end of. if u dont bring the dog up right ur destroying its life from day one.


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## labmad (Sep 23, 2007)

Very sad......but VERY TRUE pal



louie said:


> We keep Great Danes and French Mastiffs and it annoys me to think a large breed does something wrong and the large breed is all around the internet and newspapers where as a small dog does some damage and thats just fine.
> We know some one who has never had a problem with there large breeds of dogs.But when her jackrussel turned on her she had two fingers hanging off her hand and had to have 60 stitches on her hand but thats ok because its a small dog right?
> The dog was put to sleep the following day.
> However if this had of been a great dane or a large breed it would have been all over the papers.


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## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

I got attacked by my m8s german shepard on halloween last year I was sitting on hes sofa and hes little sister let the dog out and it jumped for my face i managed to put my arm there so that got bit instead. Some dogs get jealous and become vicious others get badly treated and end up terrified of everyone or vicious to everyone.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

The Gecko King :) said:


> I got attacked by my m8s german shepard on halloween last year I was sitting on hes sofa and hes little sister let the dog out and it jumped for my face i managed to put my arm there so that got bit instead. Some dogs get jealous and become vicious others get badly treated and end up terrified of everyone or vicious to everyone.


Classic case of a dog doing its job 

Yes there are many dogs that get treated badly they will either retaliate by biting or just cower in a corner 

Thats why i think my personal opinion that is that the most important key factor in dogs and their behaviour is definately the up bringing


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## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

I have a japanese akita and staff cross mastiff and alsation myself and my akita will tear any1 apart who goes near her except me shes getting very old tho and her eyesight is bad now


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## PRS (Dec 31, 2007)

I got my akita at 6months old and it was badly treated now shes nearly 11


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

louie said:


> We keep Great Danes and French Mastiffs and it annoys me to think a large breed does something wrong and the large breed is all around the internet and newspapers where as a small dog does some damage and thats just fine.
> We know some one who has never had a problem with there large breeds of dogs.But when her jackrussel turned on her she had two fingers hanging off her hand and had to have 60 stitches on her hand but thats ok because its a small dog right?
> The dog was put to sleep the following day.
> However if this had of been a great dane or a large breed it would have been all over the papers.


 
Very very true

Getting puppy is like having a child.............neither ask you to bring them into your household its your choice to do that !

If something goes wrong with you child you deal with it...............

but if something goes wrong with the dog they are either rehomed or put to sleep

point to this is if your not ready to take on and accept the responsibility or research what the dog is capable of doing and ensure the risks are covered then DONT take it on in the 1st place 

such a simple solution really


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

The Gecko King :) said:


> I have a japanese akita and staff cross mastiff and alsation myself and my akita will tear any1 apart who goes near her except me shes getting very old tho and her eyesight is bad now


 
But the difference is you know your dog and what she is capable of so there for i pressume you ensure that people she dosnt know are kept away from her then there is no risk of harm coming to someone


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## Niccired (Apr 13, 2007)

well just up the road from where i live a dog went "beserk" at the families new yrs eve party.

After reading the article, it appears the dog (apparently a cross between a staff and an american pit bull) got over excited at the party and when someone tried to calm him down he started to attack them. In total 4 were injured, one thought to be serious. The police were called and a police dog handler managed to calm him in the kitchen- now for the strange bit.

When the police left the house the dog was alive as none of the injured party wanted to press charges, then after a few hours the dog was dead- the police are now interviewing the owner over the dogs death.
Now i wasnt sure at first which house the dog was from as it was just up the road i was quite interested (me being nosey) I have now found out where the dog lived, and im not suprised!! 

Every time i walked passed the house the poor dog was being teased in the garden by his owners, it was awful. As i only live down the road and have seen the way they treated the dog i can only assume that is why the dog attacked the people at the party- i think this has definatly proved to me that it is bad dog owners rather than the breed IMO

Sadly for us its another case for the public to judge us and our dogs without the knowledge to do so!


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## Chicco (Jan 1, 2008)

"i was at a show and it had a dog show in and there was a collie sitting next to me and a rotti came running down a bridge and attacked the collie for no apparent reason. i absolutely :censor: myself. the rotti was one of the show dogs."

Hiya. Can I just make a couple of little comments on the above quote, and I do not want to excuse the rottie at all but:-

My male rottie receives other male rotties in the house as fosters, boarders & rescues, he does heelwork to music in display offlead with various breeds, big & small etc etc, but I'm afraid after being attacked by two different collies I must say I keep an eye on his behaviour when coming across them. One of those collies we used to walk with, and when my boy just went to say hello to the guy while we were walking.............. whoosh, the collie just flew at him. 
Unfortunately when it happened again with a different collie, a rescue the people had not long had then I admit that I am watchful around collies. It is possible this was a similar situation.

Also if the dog show was within a show, then it was highly likely to be a little exemption show, and as such it is the type of thing that novice handlers attend to get experience, so I wouldn't without knowing call this dog a "show" dog.

Doesn't take away the fact that it happened at all.


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## XxIGGYxX (Jan 1, 2008)

I think the owner ov the dog is responsible for the dogs behaviour if the owner dosent bring it up with respet it will be vicous and its the same with any dog not just rottweilers so i think it is a stupid idear to bann rotties wen it is the owners fault here is a pic of mi brother 5 yrs and mi sister 3 yrs with mi rottweiler george x


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

argh awwwwwwwww amazing piccys 

and i have to say i so agree with you my opinion on large breed dogs and i own 4 and 1 med breed if they are brought up properly then they have no reason to be nasty or aggressive as thats somat they have to learn or be taught just like children have to be


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## daisyleo (Nov 23, 2006)

This thread really upsets me, not the actual thread but the fact that it's bringing it all to the fore front now just how bad this problem is getting.
Every six months now on the news there is a child attacked and sometimes dead by these so called 'dangerous dogs' it's heartbreaking firstly to think of how that baby suffered but also that a dog was killed because of the owners lack of care.
IMO my child (when I have one) will never be left anywhere there is a potential 'bad dog' I wouldn't even visit!!!
I have said to my O/H that I am only ready to have children once our beautiful staffies have passed on because I don't think it's fair on the dogs, they have had five and four years with me as their soul carer and I do molly coddle them something terrible, but I am sensible enough to say 'I know a baby might change them & I won't put them in that situation'
I have every faith in my dogs and although not often they are used to seeing kids of all ages but we must remember as others have said this is a 'dog' it's not something you can totally control, my border collie attacked me badly 4 years ago due to some kind of brain tumour, it was totally unprovoked just one day he snapped, I do admit though looking back we had him from 12 weeks old and he was 8 when he was put to sleep and he didn't get the exercise a collie REALLY needs, a walk round the block isn't enough for a dog like that.
I know of a few collies now through friends etc and they all have dodgy temprements, I wouldn't have another collie as a house dog now ever.
My staffies are the best thing that has ever happened to me but I do now feel more wary of them after Jake attacking me as I see how quickly they can snap and this is the scary part when they are around children.

I think the best thing that can happen from all these attacks is bring licences back, it won't irradicate the problem totally but it will bring any 'proper dog owner' to the front and show that some people can be responsible and that any dipstick without a licence can have his dog ceased (I know it's a stereo type but it'a more likely it's a 'chavs' dog that will attack a child than a lady from somewhere posh that takes 'Billy the rottie' to training classes and does heelwork (unless like my collie it's an illness that causes the attack), some of you may not like that for whatever reason i.e. I don't want to have to fork out for a licence!!!, well in that case don't buy a dog.
Also I think there should be some law on how many puppies can be bred etc, look at all the homeless dogs? yet we are all still allowed to breed our bitches as often as we can and get all these dogs that go on to be mistreated, shut in the garden in all conditions, beaten, then they savage kids and we wonder why???!!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

daisyleo said:


> This thread really upsets me, not the actual thread but the fact that it's bringing it all to the fore front now just how bad this problem is getting.
> Every six months now on the news there is a child attacked and sometimes dead by these so called 'dangerous dogs' it's heartbreaking firstly to think of how that baby suffered but also that a dog was killed because of the owners lack of care.
> IMO my child (when I have one) will never be left anywhere there is a potential 'bad dog' I wouldn't even visit!!!
> I have said to my O/H that I am only ready to have children once our beautiful staffies have passed on because I don't think it's fair on the dogs, they have had five and four years with me as their soul carer and I do molly coddle them something terrible, but I am sensible enough to say 'I know a baby might change them & I won't put them in that situation'
> ...


 
You are so right on this and i have the up most respect for you in why you are waiting to have children :no1:

Its a matter of people underestimating their dogs no matter how big or small, dogs are dogs and should not be expected to adapt like humans can as it takes them alot longer...........


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## Vaughan69 (Nov 22, 2007)

I second that ^^^ too true


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## Chicco (Jan 1, 2008)

If you wanted to join us on our rottie forum then please let me know.

Have just read the rules and it seems I need to post the address in the link directory. Or PM me if you want. 

Us rottie owners need some reassuring like minded friends around at the moment.

However as said in my original post on this site I am really encouraged by everybody's opinions and support on this and again ---- thanks for that.


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## Chicco (Jan 1, 2008)

Just want to reply to Daisyleo's post. 

Totally agree about the licencing of owners & breeders. Stop all these backstreet "hobby" breeders giving their dogs out to anyone that comes up with the money.

Put some of the blame on the press for their portrayal of rotties over the years. In calling them "aggressive" "killers" etc etc they have encouraged just the wrong people to own them that want exactly that. 

Sigh.

Well ---- we have rehomed a puppy of 5 months today from rescue and hope to home another tomorrow of 7 months, so people are still coming forward for them. It is up to us at rescue to choose wisely for these homes. And we do.


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## bugdude (Dec 5, 2007)

*dog's*

hi i have a blue doberman, and a brown doberman and they have been socialised all the time and they play with other dog's and love people. people who meet them like the breed even more so, it is the owner's not the dog's who are at fault. if you socialise them from puppy's then that is a good start.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

We'll never know what was going through the dogs head.But IMO most likly a humanized dog best examples of this is in small lapdog types meny meny small dogs sit on there owners lap'etc and go at anyone that goes near there owner.The dog beleaves that it's infact the other way round and it(dog) is equal to the owner or even owns the owner.Humanizing dogs takes away the peaking order eliment coz the dog is (A) and what (A) says goes a dog should never have no say in what is done and you don't have to be cruel or heartless to achieve this just remember it's a dog not a person.with every human in the house hold the dog should alway be at the bottom of the pecking order if you beleave you can never do this you should not own a dog.The event was most likly what we call spoilt brat sydrome,The result of being humanize,Human spoilt brats hit,throw things,and bite there preblems we can sort this out with childen but when a dog gets spoilt brat sydrome it's to late the result being what this thred is about.

There is a nother possibility this is NOT a STATMENT or SLANDER just a possibility.We don't know the dog or how it was rased but if the dog was sweet as.And ate maybe a illegal substance i'e drug of type ? this could change the whole behavior of the dog from it just sleeping it off to going mad.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

gazz said:


> We'll never know what was going through the dogs head.But IMO most likly a humanized dog best examples of this is in small lapdog types meny meny small dogs sit on there owners lap'etc and go at anyone that goes near there owner.The dog beleaves that it's infact the other way round and it(dog) is equal to the owner or even owns the owner.Humanizing dogs takes away the peaking order eliment coz the dog is (A) and what (A) says goes a dog should never have no say in what is done and you don't have to be cruel or heartless to achieve this just remember it's a dog not a person.with every human in the house hold the dog should alway be at the bottom of the pecking order if you beleave you can never do this you should not own a dog.The event was most likly what we call spoilt brat sydrome,The result of being humanize,Human spoilt brats hit,throw things,and bite there preblems we can sort this out with childen but when a dog gets spoilt brat sydrome it's to late the result being what this thred is about.
> 
> There is a nother possibility this is NOT a STATMENT or SLANDER just a possibility.We don't know the dog or how it was rased but if the dog was sweet as.And ate maybe a illegal substance i'e drug of type ? this could change the whole behavior of the dog from it just sleeping it off to going mad.


The dog this thread is about wasnt raised in a family home it had been brought into the family home at 2 years old they had it for 6 months before this attack the dog had previously live in a garage so was basically doing the job it had been raised to do gaurd its territory !!


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Emmaj said:


> The dog this thread is about wasnt raised in a family home it had been brought into the family home at 2 years old they had it for 6 months before this attack the dog had previously live in a garage so was basically doing the job it had been raised to do gaurd its territory !!


That's bad and the end result so sad.Dogs should be left alone with children.But this is one dog that should not have been put in a family involving childen at 2 years.This dog wouldn't have known the strength of the family unit and would have and did push the boundaries of it's place in the family with a sad ending.Such a shame they really should have waited for the year old to get a little older an age of him knowing right from wrong and got a pup to rase in a family environment.The dog they got was a compleat stranger and strangers in any form are unpredictable and are never trusted worthy.


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## Pon (Jan 9, 2008)

i work in a kennels and so far i have never been bitten, but i have been warned off mostly by dogs like yorkies. We also have rotties that come in that have been the most adorable things i have ever met. 
For a start if i had a big dog, especially a rottie i would be extremely over protective over it, muzzle it on walks and never leave it alone with anyone just because there jaw power is so strong and even a nibble can get them put down. 
I would never EVER leave a dog alone with a child and would never trust a guard dog.
In this case the dog should of been put down because it attacked someone but if that dog had been brought up differently who no's how soft it would be.
I completely blame the owners in these cases as if a dog is treated properly it will almost always turn into a well behaved animal, and if a dog is vicious i think it should be put down anyway.


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

Chicco said:


> If you wanted to join us on our rottie forum then please let me know.
> 
> Have just read the rules and it seems I need to post the address in the link directory. Or PM me if you want.
> 
> ...


You'll probably find that big dog owners and big snake owners have a lot in common when discussing the crap they get about their pets from the general public sometimes.


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## annewynne (Jan 5, 2008)

*rottie attack*

firstly i would say ANY breed of dogs can be nasty-from a chihuahua to a great dane,my parents neighbour in her 80,s was savaged by her own dog,of which she had owned for years,it had been sick and when she went to clean it up it just attacked her,really badly,she had to be hospitalised, but then again i have read replys from people saying they wouldnt trust there dogs on there own with there children,personally speaking if i felt that about my dogs i wouldnt have them, i trust my dogs alone with my children,brought up from pups with children and they know who is in control,if i thought they could harm anyone i wouldnt have them simple as.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

annewynne said:


> firstly i would say ANY breed of dogs can be nasty-from a chihuahua to a great dane,my parents neighbour in her 80,s was savaged by her own dog,of which she had owned for years,it had been sick and when she went to clean it up it just attacked her,really badly,she had to be hospitalised, but then again i have read replys from people saying they wouldnt trust there dogs on there own with there children,personally speaking if i felt that about my dogs i wouldnt have them, i trust my dogs alone with my children,brought up from pups with children and they know who is in control,if i thought they could harm anyone i wouldnt have them simple as.


 
Well im sorry but thats a big risk your takin especially seen as you have put about the woman being attacked by her own dog!

Dogs are not human they dont see right from wrong like humans do and they shouldnt be expected to..................

i would never leave my son alone with my dogs simple fact is............they would never intentionally hurt him but all it takes if for them to jump up and knock him over and he could hurt himself................dogs are like children they dont sense danger they just want to play play play


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## annewynne (Jan 5, 2008)

when i say children,my youngest is 15yrs old,my largest dog weighs 8lb,i have had big breed dogs in the past(including-rottweiller-neopolitan mastiff-bull mastiff-)plus other breeds,including a staffordshire bull terrier who produced milk and fed tiny kittens.


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## Niccired (Apr 13, 2007)

annewynne said:


> firstly i would say ANY breed of dogs can be nasty-from a chihuahua to a great dane,my parents neighbour in her 80,s was savaged by her own dog,of which she had owned for years,it had been sick and when she went to clean it up it just attacked her,really badly,she had to be hospitalised, but then again i have read replys from people saying they wouldnt trust there dogs on there own with there children,personally speaking if i felt that about my dogs i wouldnt have them, i trust my dogs alone with my children,brought up from pups with children and they know who is in control,if i thought they could harm anyone i wouldnt have them simple as.


i was one of those people who said i wouldnt leave my daughter alone with my rottie who at 9mths old weighs in at 8st- what sort of mother would i be if i did?
I trust my dog 100% its my daughter who i dont trust- who may i add is 19mths old. All she would have to do is hurt him or do something to him that he doesnt like while im not there and he could react in a bad way (looking back at the info provided my daughter wouldnt stand a chance)

Its an obvious fact (and you should know as you say you have kept them) that a dog such as a rottie or large mastiff could cause someone serious damage wether or not they are trained- all it takes is something they dont like to scare or annoy them! I f you look at the current dog attacks you will notice that the owners of the dogs have never been there and IMO if they had these attaks could have been prevented!

No matter how well trained a dog is does not mean that they wont try and protect themselves if they feel threatend or scared- this is only natural. just like if i felt threatend i would do ANYTHING to protect myself- if that ment hurting the other person id do it!!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Niccired said:


> i was one of those people who said i wouldnt leave my daughter alone with my rottie who at 9mths old weighs in at 8st- what sort of mother would i be if i did?
> I trust my dog 100% its my daughter who i dont trust- who may i add is 19mths old. All she would have to do is hurt him or do something to him that he doesnt like while im not there and he could react in a bad way (looking back at the info provided my daughter wouldnt stand a chance)
> 
> Its an obvious fact (and you should know as you say you have kept them) that a dog such as a rottie or large mastiff could cause someone serious damage wether or not they are trained- all it takes is something they dont like to scare or annoy them! I f you look at the current dog attacks you will notice that the owners of the dogs have never been there and IMO if they had these attaks could have been prevented!
> ...


well said on that one.............Children can and are probably the crulest of cruel think of they way they taunt each other at school or while playing out they are forever falling out 

Dogs like adults dont understand this they just see a smaller version of us so they dont know when a child is pulling its ears or tail that the child is only playing 

But also annewynne the difference here is that your children are older they are young adults so they know how to defend off a dog they know not to pull a dogs ears or torment it.............young children dont they think its fun...................this is why young children should NEVER! be left alone with any size or breed of dog IMO: victory:


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## annewynne (Jan 5, 2008)

im not saying young children should be left on there own with a dog or any animal,im saying i trust my dogs,as people said they would not trust theres.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

I Don't know if this has been said but,
Its not the dogs fault its the owners, the owner brings the dog up and teaches it whats good and whats wrong.

And leaving a baby in a room on its own with a rocky, shows the parents weren't responsible anyway


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

annewynne said:


> im not saying young children should be left on there own with a dog or any animal,im saying i trust my dogs,as people said they would not trust theres.


 
Its not that people dont trust their dogs left alone with kids its what the kids may do to the dogs when left alone as already been said 

I trust my dogs 100% and know they would never hurt my son intentionally but i still wouldnt leave him on his own with them as they are playful big heavy dogs so if they jumped up at him they would knock him for 6 lord knows they have with me a time or too when i aint been expecting them to jump up lol ( and please before anyone says train them not to jump up its huskies we are talking about its part of their hello ritual lol)


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

jungle-fever said:


> I Don't know if this has been said but,
> Its not the dogs fault its the owners, the owner brings the dog up and teaches it whats good and whats wrong.
> 
> And leaving a baby in a room on its own with a rocky, shows the parents weren't responsible anyway


 
yes you can bring a dog up knowing right from wrong but they have to be taught but there is also the added thing of illness if a dog becomes ill they can turn as its their only way of telling you they are in pain or ill


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## josharmitage (Mar 19, 2007)

av got a 16 week old rottie n i wont leave it wi the kids, wudnt leave any dog wi em, i live in wakefield too where that kid got killed n so many people saying stuff about us having her, alot of people over here thing that all dogs are the same and that all rotties are evil, its al bout how there brought up


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## fergie (Oct 27, 2007)

My wee brother recently rescued a rottweiller/german shepherd cross that was left abandoned in some womans back yard. My wee brother also has a 7 month old baby, so as you can understand the family's a bit dubious about the whole situation but i've been up to see the pup and he already seems to know his place. My wee brother has been doing a good job of socializing the pup with other dogs and young children, including his baby. At this young age the pup will only come near the baby if my brother calls him over and so far there has been no jealousy issues. Now obviously this pup is going to grow up into a large powerful dog that will have the potential to do a lot of damage if it wishes. Now i'm going to be keeping an eye on this dog, making sure its getting plenty of exercise, thats its got enough around him to keep his mind occupied, well fed and getting the correct discipline and obedience training this breed requires to make sure he's a happy dog. Thankfully my brother lives near a lot of open expanses where you can let a dog off the leash and run free without fear of cattle, other dogs to engage with and can burn himself out.

It is heart breaking and sad to learn that a young infant has been killed by what was supposed to be a family pet but when watching the news i noticed that dog seemed to have been kept in a small back yard. I don't know how much exercise or training this dog got but if this dog was confined to this yard for extended periods of time it's going to become bored, frustrated, angry and eventually lash out sooner rather than later and when a rottweiler lashes its going to do some serious damage. Infants and children have no chance and an adult would do well to get away with serious injuries. I truly feel sorry for the family but i also have a lot of sympathy for the dog. I grew up all my life with dogs, as i used to do a lot of hunting when younger. Patterdales, lurchers, springers, jack russels, springers, a pit at one time and a few mongrels were among the dogs we had, amongst them some very vicious breeds but not once did any of our dogs show aggression towards people as they had no need to, they were well worked and knew their place in the pack. 

A neighbour also had a rottweiler, ten and a half stone of pure killing machine but this dog was one of the friendliest dogs i ever met. When we were kids the dog would carry us about on his back, let us rest our heads on him when we lying out in the sun on the long summer days. The key to this was the owner always exercised Glynn (dogs name) and socialized him with kids from no age. He also had a thirty by fifteen foot run and numerous activities in his run to keep his mind active.

Suppose the point behind this unbelievably long post is, that sometimes its the dogs fault but nearly all the time its the owners fault. Either through negligence, poor training, some prick trying to be all macho with his big scary dog that they have no control over or just plain ignorance of the breed of dog they have taken on.

Thank f**k thats finished

Be lucky


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

LOL that was a post and half 

but would like to say good on your brother lots of respect going out in his direction 
: victory:


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## CWD (Feb 11, 2007)

all i will say its the owners not the dog the dog is what you make it !!!


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

CWD said:


> all i will say its the owners not the dog the dog is what you make it !!!


Thats so very true 

I have a 3 year old husky girl coming to me this evening im fostering her with hope of her staying her if she fits in with my pack 

This poor girl has been through hell and all she wants is someone to love her and give her the attention and time she deserves 

It really does break my heart to know dogs have to go through this i jumped at the chance to help this girl as her story is so similiar to that of my mallie x boy that i rescued so i understand what she has been through i have spent the last 5 months working on my boy and he has turned out to be a fabulous, loving gentle giant of a dog :flrt:

So fingers crossed there is hope here for her too


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