# dart frog set up



## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

hello!
i want to set up a frog tank for bumblebees or something similar
do they like vertical space?
i have a tank thats 4ft tall 20cm deep and 50cm wide, would this be alright?

would pva glue (none water soluble) mixed with soily stuff be ok to cover things with? like expanding foam etc to make it look like real muddy jungle!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Is your viv wooden? It WILL rot - dart frogs require constant 90%+ humidity - you really need a glass tank. 

You cant use PVA as a sealant as it will just go gooey in water!

Heres how i made 2 dart frog vivs - one simple, one complex - hopefully that will give you an idea to start off with : victory:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/amphibians/189315-how-build-dart-frog-viv.html


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/amphibians/250705-how-build-dart-frog-viv.html


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

its glass all, i have the viv set up. i was just wondering if its pointless it being so tall if they arent going to use the space?
ill post photos of it in a few days when i sort my camera out

i thought pva would do that but the stuff found said it wont.. stupid ebay with its lies! pfft! ty for pva tip


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

chamaeleo said:


> its glass all, i have the viv set up. i was just wondering if its pointless it being so tall if they arent going to use the space?
> ill post photos of it in a few days when i sort my camera out
> 
> i thought pva would do that but the stuff found said it wont.. stupid ebay with its lies! pfft! ty for pva tip



Aaah sweet! Well my azureus do use the height a lot - put lots of plants/cork up the walls and they would love it.

Try using black silicone to stick eco earth to : victory:


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

i have done, looks fab- much cheaper than buying a backdrop of that size.
i wanted to coat some tree branches in pva- with some soil on but it sounds like a bad idea- ill just invest in some better none rotting tree bits!


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

actually im going to silicone the branches too- they will be mostly hidden any way- going to buy some liana from a dart frog site- cant wait to buy some frogs!


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## beastluke (Sep 27, 2008)

a cool thing you could do is stick a divider 2 foot up and then you got two vivs for two so
species!


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

thats a really good idea! do species not mix well?
im new to frogs so i have no idea
iv got about 100 imges of tanks i like- looking forward to finishing it off- i have done some bits, lots of cork in there- bought more today, had a horrible looking funnel web on the back of a peice tho so lets hope the spiders dead!

im going to put a step by step thing up on here to show people what iv done incase they like any bits iv done


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## beastluke (Sep 27, 2008)

mixing species is frowned upon in the hobby because it is said that if the two or more species do not encounter eachother in the wild, they should not in captivity and this should be respected, every species is unique, putting another species in changes how each individual act and can cause death. hybridisation also may occur. this is not good as in the hobby, many people are trying to create pure bloodlines so the species may be passed on in the future to be a common pet. i have learnt this from mixing myself the 1st time i got darts ages ago.in a tank the same size of yours, i had a pair of auratus el cope and a pair of auratus bronze giant. within days a dominance occured. fighting was there and it was over in 2 months


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## danpug (Jul 4, 2007)

www.dendroworld.co.uk

All the info you need is on that forum, join up and have a search. The tank you have isn't suitable for leucomelas as already mentioned. Would be good for a thumbnail species though.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

danpug said:


> www.dendroworld.co.uk
> 
> All the info you need is on that forum, join up and have a search. The tank you have isn't suitable for leucomelas as already mentioned. Would be good for a thumbnail species though.



Are you kidding? a FOUR FOOT HIGH viv by 50 cm wide by 20cm deep? not big enough for leucs?! 

Leucs are an ideal starter frog and that size viv would be just fine lol! If anything its too big and youll not find the frogs lol! Admittedly its not very deep but a pair would live in there happily. 

To the OP - i strongly recommend setting up your tank and having it running for a month before getting frogs - ensure your temperature and humidity remain constant as they do NOT do well with fluctuating conditions. The hardest part is keeping humidity at 90% or higher - in a viv that big youll have a challenge. Also have you started breeding fruit flies? youll need a constant supply of tiny food. 

If these are your first darts PLEASE dont mix them. Only a very small number of species are OK to mix - this is because most will fight, have different conditions, have different food, or hybridize. I can only think of 3 or 4 i would be happy mixing and thats after a looong time observing the behaviour of each species on their own. Its not worth it - these animals stress easily and could die even when given good conditions.

Take your time - do it right : victory:


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

yeah ill leave it running for a while so i can get everything right- had to do the same thing with my britsh species marine tank ( just shrimps and other bits) had to trying to keep it cold but iv managed 

i had a cham but that was only around 50% humidity.. ill see how hard it is to sort out before i defintely decided to get any frogs. if its too hard its just gonna be a fancy green house haha

one of the pet shop by me sell tubs of them for getting your own started, its going to be a couple of months before i get some froggies any ways i think


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

just measured my tank again. its 30 deep not 20 so thats even better


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Lol sounds absolutely great hun - in which case if you have lots of platforms etc on your sides and back i would consider keeping up to a trio of leucs in there : victory:

Many keepers dont actually leave any ventilation in order to keep the humidity up, and add things like waterfalls etc - just be warned dart frogs dont swim and can drown in a cm of water (how much do they fail at being a frog! lol!) also make sure your group is male-heavy as females fight. :2thumb: keep us updated : victory:


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

edit* doubleposted ignore


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

i make ostrich fans and order my staves in custom made from acrylic- so im going to get that company to cut me a sheet to fit down the side of the tank and drill a few little holes in and make it into a door (its just a normal fish tank on its end) 
i have a really nice waterfall- it was a feng shui fountain only 10.99! prob going to get a fogger/mist system too.

haha awh bless em, ill just fill my pond with gravel to keep it shallow for them then,

i dont suppose you know how safe it would be to have a heat light directly above glass? it really thick tho, i know uv wont go through glass but ill sort that out! this is just for making it hot, i did it with my cham but im not entirely convinced its entirely safe- ie will it heat up and shatter the glass?


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

chamaeleo said:


> i make ostrich fans and order my staves in custom made from acrylic- so im going to get that company to cut me a sheet to fit down the side of the tank and drill a few little holes in and make it into a door (its just a normal fish tank on its end)
> i have a really nice waterfall- it was a feng shui fountain only 10.99! prob going to get a fogger/mist system too.
> 
> haha awh bless em, ill just fill my pond with gravel to keep it shallow for them then,
> ...



woooah careful - dart frogs need ROOM temperature - between 70 and 80F - they survive being too cold better than being too hot! they will die very quickly if kept above 85F for any period of time. 

Just get a bulb for viewing - definitely not a heat bulb : victory:


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## danpug (Jul 4, 2007)

chondro13 said:


> Are you kidding? a FOUR FOOT HIGH viv by 50 cm wide by 20cm deep? not big enough for leucs?!
> 
> Leucs are an ideal starter frog and that size viv would be just fine lol! If anything its too big and youll not find the frogs lol! Admittedly its not very deep but a pair would live in there happily.
> 
> ...


Oops i misread! A trio would be ok in there, no more.


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

is there any particular silicone i should be using? im using outdoor weather proof brown coloured stuff. is this alright? before i cover the foam in it and cry when i discover its the wrong stuff


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

chamaeleo said:


> is there any particular silicone i should be using? im using outdoor weather proof brown coloured stuff. is this alright? before i cover the foam in it and cry when i discover its the wrong stuff



should be OK - just be careful its not the stuff that stays tacky and like bitumin. i used ordinary black silicone for mine : victory:


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> should be OK - just be careful its not the stuff that stays tacky and like bitumin. i used ordinary black silicone for mine : victory:


ill just double check and ask in the shop. bought some fabulous wood today- its got loads of hollows in it for froggies to sit off in.


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

as iv been told my tank will be best suited to thumbnails i want to split it so i can have 2 diff species rather than loose them in a massive tank
if i split it will it still be suitable for em still?
the bottom i would be
26" by 50cm w by 30cm d
would be 
20" 50cm w by 30cm d

heres a pic of it- just imagine the glass peice where the foam stops.
dont laugh at my crappy tank construction- its my first attempt at a viv haha


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

we've had frogs for years now and im liking this expanding foam idea, how are you going to colour/stick things to it again? our friend builds aquariums so we used all different shapes and sizes of glass to create shelves and a moat that has a ridge back turtle in with a waterfall at one side, its good but all this glass has made it extremely heavy, we should of used perspex me thinks, ALSO BEWARE OF THE MISTER we had one, it pretty much boils the water it sits in and gives you a nasty shock if you touch the jet on the top, consequently one of the frogs died from it. They shouldnt sell em, they're not designed properly. ill post a pic of ours in a mo for you.


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt235/lucian2sb/CIMG4079.jpg


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

ty for the pics, your viv looks fabulous. im going to post a step by step of mine when its eventually done.
what people genrally do is get silicone sealent, totally smother the foam in it to make sure its all coverd and press coco into it. you can also cover it with grout and paint it apparently. im going for the sealent option.
i just bought a fogger litrally like an hour ago, its great but i agree about the water - but it is cool when it spreads- what iv done is put it in a thick microwaveable proof dish (so its ok with the heat) put a lid on it to prevent splashes and cut small squres out for the fog to come out but the frogs wont get in caus the holes are too small. also im going to use it on a timer every 2 hours (or something. work it out when i get the tank done) for 15 mins
thats terrible about your frogs though there should be a warning on them then!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

Just a note - be VERY careful not to have water in your dart viv - they CAN and DO drown in 1cm of water so literally make sure if you do have a water feature it doesnt have any depth to it : victory: and if you use the fogger make sure its sealed so the frogs cant get to the fogger or get into the water :2thumb:

EDIT - Lucian your vivs are gorgeous!


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

chondro13 said:


> Just a note - be VERY careful not to have water in your dart viv - they CAN and DO drown in 1cm of water so literally make sure if you do have a water feature it doesnt have any depth to it : victory: and if you use the fogger make sure its sealed so the frogs cant get to the fogger or get into the water :2thumb:
> 
> EDIT - Lucian your vivs are gorgeous!


 the fogger is well and truly sealed- the tub its in it is gonna get siliconed and stuck to the back of the tank so it looks like an extra ledge.
and the waterfall pool i have will get gravel filled so its very very shallow.


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks for the viv comments, the pics dont really do it any justice, i think it looks terrible in the pics lol, but it helps when your friend builds aquariums and specialises in bog-wood and cork aswell, plants wise - we got a list of real plants that you can use off the net and went to the garden center with all the latin names and they sorted us out, i think it came to less that £20 for the plants, the viv is the biggest one that exoterra make and the weight now is to heavy to move or slide, we're moving house soon so tht should be fun, plus i have a extremely large marine tank thats got to come aswell :gasp::gasp:, im dredding it. Building a nice viv is all about patience, take your time, plan it out, think about it a lot before you even think about getting any frogs and you get good results,


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

also dont get dragged in to buying a proper pre-made waterfall they are exspensive, instead buy a small powerhead, i think ours was a tenner (designed for a fishtank) and put a piece of pipe on the end (we used hosepipe) and run it up the back of your scenary onto a shelf were it then trickles down your rocks


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

True! great advice hun, 

I used an external filter for my waterfall - i dont need to mist anymore, the humidity is constantly at 96% : victory:


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> True! great advice hun,
> 
> I used an external filter for my waterfall - i dont need to mist anymore, the humidity is constantly at 96% : victory:


Yeh we have used an ext now, but didnt wanna confuse the lad, filtration at this stage isnt imperative i dont think, plus ext filters can be really expensive also, ours was over £130 lol but we've got a turtle in our little moat thats creating a lot of waste though, as long as there is mmovement it stops the water getting stagnant, ours love being misted, we looked into getting an automatic mister with the nozzles that you put in the lid of the viv but they are about £400 ha ha, :gasp:


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

which lad? i got my water fall cheap- its a feng shui fountain for 10.99 its pretty nice but i just wanted the pump to make my own fall with. this tanks gonna take me months caus i wan get it just right. i love the look of foggers tho


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

lucian said:


> Yeh we have used an ext now, but didnt wanna confuse the lad, filtration at this stage isnt imperative i dont think, plus ext filters can be really expensive also, ours was over £130 lol but we've got a turtle in our little moat thats creating a lot of waste though, as long as there is mmovement it stops the water getting stagnant, ours love being misted, we looked into getting an automatic mister with the nozzles that you put in the lid of the viv but they are about £400 ha ha, :gasp:



i know the misting devices are sooooooooooooo expensive :gasp:

You got raped for your external filter lol! i bought one for my CWD viv for £40 on eBay (rrp £105) and i got one for the darts second hand from a shop for £20! it was eheim too! RRP about 90 quid, happy happy girl :2thumb:


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

chamaeleo said:


> which lad? i got my water fall cheap- its a feng shui fountain for 10.99 its pretty nice but i just wanted the pump to make my own fall with. this tanks gonna take me months caus i wan get it just right. i love the look of foggers tho


So so sorry, i dont know why i just assumed you were male, argh :blush:, plus im tired and hungry and im starting to not word things as i perhaps should, not your fault, ive just been on ere too long today. :bash:


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

chondro13 said:


> i know the misting devices are sooooooooooooo expensive :gasp:
> 
> You got raped for your external filter lol! i bought one for my CWD viv for £40 on eBay (rrp £105) and i got one for the darts second hand from a shop for £20! it was eheim too! RRP about 90 quid, happy happy girl :2thumb:


Lol we didnt buy it specially for the frogs, it was an old fish one i didnt use anymore, eheim £20? lucky you, there superb, good old Germans (i think its German lol). i'm used to expensive filters and stuff with havin a marine tank, ive given up caring about the prices of that stuff, coz you either get it or you dont, and if you dont fish die.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

lucian said:


> Lol we didnt buy it specially for the frogs, it was an old fish one i didnt use anymore, eheim £20? lucky you, there superb, good old Germans (i think its German lol). i'm used to expensive filters and stuff with havin a marine tank, ive given up caring about the prices of that stuff, coz you either get it or you dont, and if you dont fish die.



:lol2: dont i know it! its worth paying the money and doing stuff like this right - im about to spend about £300 on a CWD setup - all DIY by myself, to buy everything new without cutting prices down would be more like £600+... reptiles cost a lot but their so worth it if its done right :flrt: i love my dart viv - although it cost a fortune and took ages to make, now its minimal maintenance and still looks great while being the perfect environment for their optimal health. Cant get a better reward than that! :blush:


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

lucian said:


> So so sorry, i dont know why i just assumed you were male, argh :blush:, plus im tired and hungry and im starting to not word things as i perhaps should, not your fault, ive just been on ere too long today. :bash:


 nah not botherd was ust confused for a sec there!


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

chamaeleo said:


> nah not botherd was ust confused for a sec there!



Everyone thinks im a guy too  even with the avatar!! lol!


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

ive pm'd you coz its turning into chat and i think the mod's will be getting narked lol


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

lucian said:


> ive pm'd you coz its turning into chat and i think the mod's will be getting narked lol



why? this is the help and chat section :lol2: they only get annoyed if you fill up the classified ads


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

just off topic- but is any one else mortified by the 'community viv' thread thats in lizards atm? its just a normal (if not somewhat thrown together in 10 mins) viv that some one with a serious delusion of how great they have made it had shoved a load of animals in. its pretty sad.
its been locked so i sadly couldnt ask them questions and i dont want to pm caus ill prob get a gobfull from them


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

chamaeleo said:


> just off topic- but is any one else mortified by the 'community viv' thread thats in lizards atm? its just a normal (if not somewhat thrown together in 10 mins) viv that some one with a serious delusion of how great they have made it had shoved a load of animals in. its pretty sad.
> its been locked so i sadly couldnt ask them questions and i dont want to pm caus ill prob get a gobfull from them



Yeah you get that a lot on here unfortunately  people are cheap and want to save on space and get all high and mighty saying their some kind of herpetologist and thats the reasons for keeping animals in frankly inadequate conditions. Try not to get involved it pulls at your heart strings but nothing will make them keep the animals any differently  hopefully one day they will see that their a complete :censor: and give each animal the requirements it deserves and needs!


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## lucian (Apr 28, 2009)

Ha ha yeh ive just been reading it, i'm sure the mods just let it run on to see what happens and i think they must sit there laughing half the time until it gets way too much, handbags at the ready, i'd hate to go to one of those convensions, they'd need doorstaff and police outside. I completely agree people just get too high and mighty, and sometimes people should keep there opinions to themselves if they are that strong, each to their own and i think we all keep these animals in different conditions and ways, just because its not text book doesnt mean to say its the wrong way. Look... even ive started now lol sorry :surrender:


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

lucian said:


> Ha ha yeh ive just been reading it, i'm sure the mods just let it run on to see what happens and i think they must sit there laughing half the time until it gets way too much, handbags at the ready, i'd hate to go to one of those convensions, they'd need doorstaff and police outside. I completely agree people just get too high and mighty, and sometimes people should keep there opinions to themselves if they are that strong, each to their own and i think we all keep these animals in different conditions and ways, just because its not text book doesnt mean to say its the wrong way. Look... even ive started now lol sorry :surrender:



:lol2::iamwithstupid:


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

yeah different is good but not this, i think they were chatting:censor: about their masters. their 'experiment' is vastly flawed. and different ways of keeping animals shouldnt compromise the health and requirements of the animals. each species of anything has specific needs and should be met regardless of how different each keepers set up is.
any hoo i dont want to get my thread murderd by mods. so ill stop. i just had to show my utter disgust at that horrible experiment


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

too true  apparently dozens of other experienced reptile keepers opinions are disregarded as they know all :devil:

:lol2: anyway... hows the dart vivs goin!?


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

its gonna take me a while i think or ill go mad doing it all in a space of a few days- also gives me more chance to reserch them, do you sell frogs at all? or know any one in manch way that does?


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

its gonna take me a while i think or ill go mad doing it all in a space of a few days- also gives me more chance to reserch them, do you sell frogs at all? or know any one in manch way that does?


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

ugh. i dunno what to do with my fogger. i dont want to kil lmy frogs with it! buti need to find a decent containter. off to hobby craft i think


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## chamaeleo (Sep 14, 2008)

found a nice container for the fogger- this is the vague layout of tank 1, the bottom tank


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## ogorringe (Oct 4, 2008)

*Frogs*

Hey guys, cool thread! : victory:

Ive also just started creating a viv for dart frogs. I keep red-eyes atm and after reading a fascinating article in that new reptile mag I'm inspired! and its time for a new project anyhow.

Your viv is coming along very well, like you i also take donkeys years putting together my vivs :lol2: but I'm slowly ordering items and playing with them to see what will look cool.

I'm using a exo-terra 30x30x45 which I'm sure will be fine for a pair of azureus?

I was inspired buy ur step by step chondro13 and I'm gonna steal ur idea of the expanding foam waterfall hehe.

I got my coco panel today which i have already cut to size. Ive seen some slate in a skip down the road so think its a trip down there when it gets dark:lol2:
I will try my best to put a step by step up ( if i ever get there)

A couple of q's i would like to ask was is if any expanding foam is ok? and whether u stick the eco earth to the expanding foam or do u need to coat it in silicone first?


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