# Puppy Advice Pls



## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Hi All

I have had dogs all my life and it seems that I have been spoiled rotten with their all round good behaviour because my 7 month old pup is very well behaved and extra ordinarily well focused, but a NIGHTMARE if left alone even for 2 seconds. I have been teaching her not to 'jump up' since we brought her home at 8 weeks old, but she still does it all the time. If in the kitchen (which is where she is kept if we have to leave her home and at night because of her tendancy to chew and jump up, knocking things down) she is up on the counters - LITERALLY!! Not just jumping up on, but actually ON TOP OF. She will then knock off anything that is on there and chew it up. My daughter had just made her lunch and was going to get her bag to put it in, but before she got back to the kitchen, it had been eaten. I hate being angry with her all the time because she is so good the rest of the time, but this is beginning to wear me down. The only other alternative is to attempt to crate train her, which I tried to do in the beginning but the neighbours complained as she would bark and scream all night long for weeks. If left alone for any period of time, I leave her toys and Kongs filled with goodies and food and water and I am constantly buying new toys and bones etc etc But it seems that her aim is to do this regardless. I have caught her in the act on several occassions and told her off, and she knows that what she is doing is wrong because she will try and hide when I come in the room (only when she has done it, other times she will greet me with an excited wiggle). I thought at first it was because she was bored, but she does this all the time, chews up anything and everything even after an hour or two at the beach, so I have now crossed boredom off my list. It is really bad because my 8 year old Golden Retreiver has started to think that this behaviour is acceptable too lol 

Does anyone have any advice on how to stop her from jumping up onto the sides and chewing everything up?

Cheers
Breezy


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Puppies are fun, aren't they? :lol2:

She really doesn't understand what she is doing is wrong. Does are amoral, they have no sense of right and wrong. What she does understand is that at certain times, or after certain behaviours you get cross with her, so her seeming 'guilt' is actually her trying to appease you and stop you being angry with her. 

The simple reason she is behaving the way she is is because it is rewarding for her. There are interesting things for her to cew up on the ounter so she jumps up there to investigate. If you clear the counters and make sure she is never able to steal food or anything else from them, she will eventually start to think that jumping up at the counters, or jumping onto them, is a waste of effort and unrewarding/boring. However, if dring this time, even once she is able ot gain access to something on the counter, it will take even longer for her to realise there is nothing up there. Eventually you will be abletoleave stuff about and she won't bother to look up there. 

Dogs are a bit like children, and any attention, even negative attention (telling off) is still attention, so the best course of action really is to ignore bad behaviour and praise the good. 

The good news is, dogs like this, that steal, jump up etc etc are usually more 'driven' than dogs that don't, and once you get the hang of how to direct their behaviour, are the most trainable. 

God luck.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Thank you midori for that. I know that it might 'seem' rewarding for her to do this, and I am aware that they will do it for this reason (I tried to fit everything I could into the first post) lol ... What she is getting when she goes up there for instance is the kettle, plastic tubs, tea and coffee canisters, the toaster etc etc. Food is never left (but for a second) on there. This is why I am having trouble understanding why she is doing it, or why that would seem rewarding when she has so much more to play with on the ground. I guess it is something I will just have to ride with.

Thanks again!


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## angelis (Jan 25, 2009)

hi, here's a few things to try. ignor her & put her in a different room when she has done it, she will learn that nobody cares.
have you thought about a crate ,not as punishment never use it for that just when you go out,
as for chewing i always tell people to put lemon spray or just rub lemon on to things , dogs hate citrus

hope this helps


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Breezy_One said:


> Thank you midori for that. I know that it might 'seem' rewarding for her to do this, and I am aware that they will do it for this reason (I tried to fit everything I could into the first post) lol ... What she is getting when she goes up there for instance is the kettle, plastic tubs, tea and coffee canisters, the toaster etc etc. Food is never left (but for a second) on there. This is why I am having trouble understanding why she is doing it, or why that would seem rewarding when she has so much more to play with on the ground. I guess it is something I will just have to ride with.
> 
> Thanks again!


 
I would guess because to a dog everything is a chew toy, and until they learn otherwse, they don't differntiate between your kettle or their new kong. 

I don't think shutting her in another room afterwards would help, as she will have already got the 'reward' by chewing the stuff. Spraying with anti-chew spray might help though,but it might also mean your stuff gets ruined in the mean time. 

I'd say your three options are: total supervision so you can tell her 'no' and distract her when she does this (not very practical), totally clearing your worktops, (again, not that practical!) or crating her. Have you tried actually training her to go in a crate, or just shutting her in? If you want e to post on how to crate train, I am happyto, butit is lengthy and you might already know!


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## rakpeterson (Oct 10, 2007)

Breezy_One said:


> Thank you midori for that. I know that it might 'seem' rewarding for her to do this, and I am aware that they will do it for this reason (I tried to fit everything I could into the first post) lol ... What she is getting when she goes up there for instance is the kettle, plastic tubs, tea and coffee canisters, the toaster etc etc. Food is never left (but for a second) on there. This is why I am having trouble understanding why she is doing it, or why that would seem rewarding when she has so much more to play with on the ground. I guess it is something I will just have to ride with.
> 
> Thanks again!


Puppies always find chewing on things they are not supposed to more fun than chewing on the toys you give them!!


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

I would recommend crate training her. It is actually really easy to do if done properly. Dogs also love a crate once they get used to it. It is their own safe place. When I go out I normally have to kick one of mine out the crate so I can put my latest foster in.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Thank you all for your replies. I will try again with the crate. I am worried about the noise she makes and the complaints received when I tried her in it when she was first brought home, but now that she is more settled, I can try again. I was hoping maybe there was a training technique that I wasn't aware of with regard to the jumping and chewing. Maybe if the crate is somewhere else other than the kitchen (maybe in the lounge with my other dog), she will get used to it and make less noise. She also broke out of the previous crate I used, which is another reason why I was a little sceptical about using this as a training tool (a new more sturdy one this time). 

Can anyone recommend a proven heavy duty crate? I have looked on the web and read some feedback that some of them are flimsy and escapable (as the one I had before lol). I was thinking of getting a gold zinc XL one from doggiesolutions.co.uk or maybe even Pets At Home (the Slavic) or Crofts.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Breezy_One said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I will try again with the crate. I am worried about the noise she makes and the complaints received when I tried her in it when she was first brought home, but now that she is more settled, I can try again. I was hoping maybe there was a training technique that I wasn't aware of with regard to the jumping and chewing. Maybe if the crate is somewhere else other than the kitchen (maybe in the lounge with my other dog), she will get used to it and make less noise. She also broke out of the previous crate I used, which is another reason why I was a little sceptical about using this as a training tool (a new more sturdy one this time).
> 
> Can anyone recommend a proven heavy duty crate? I have looked on the web and read some feedback that some of them are flimsy and escapable (as the one I had before lol). I was thinking of getting a gold zinc XL one from doggiesolutions.co.uk or maybe even Pets At Home (the Slavic) or Crofts.


I'll be honst and say I on't think a heavy duty crate is th eway o go.The idea is that the dog wants to go in the crate, and is happy to stay in there, rather than bring 'locked in'. The crate is, in effect, a dog bed, a little cosy 'den' for the dog, but with the added bonus you can contain the dog in ther if needed. 

Training a dog to accet the crate can take a few days or a couple of weks, depending on the dog. 

Start by tying a toy in the back of the crate, so the dog can only have access to he toy when it is in the crate. Also, leave a few treats in the crate, so the dog finds them in there if it goes in. I would let her see you put the treats in the first time, so she gets the idea. All the time, leave the door open so the dog can come and go as it pleases. 

Once the dog is happy to go in and out of the crate, put a few treats in(which the do wll go in for) and use whatever command you want to use for 'in the crate', then shut the door and feed the dog a few treats though the bars. Let the dog straight out. Repeat lots. 

Next, shut the dog in, give something she dog doesn't get any other time, like a stuffed kong, and shut the door. Stay within sight, and if the dog is quiet after say 10 minutes, open the door. If the dog is not quiet, ignore the dog, but still stay in sight, andwait untl th dog is quiet before letting out. You might need ot be quick to let her out in a break between barking and if you're in sight, a quick 'good girl' wen she is quiet should keep her quiet for long enough for you to let her out.

Gradually increase the time the dog is shut in the crate, popping in nd out of the room, eventually staying out of the room for longer. You get the idea? The important ting is to nevr let th edog out or give her attention wen she is making a fuss, and always make sure the dog gets something special for being in the crate (like the stuffed kong) . The dog will gradually get the idea that being in the crate is a good thing. 

Hope this helps and I am not teaching you to suck eggs. :blush:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

midori said:


> I'll be honst and say I on't think a heavy duty crate is th eway o go.The idea is that the dog wants to go in the crate, and is happy to stay in there, rather than bring 'locked in'. The crate is, in effect, a dog bed, a little cosy 'den' for the dog, but with the added bonus you can contain the dog in ther if needed.
> 
> Training a dog to accet the crate can take a few days or a couple of weks, depending on the dog.
> 
> ...


:lol2: No no no it is a great help thank you. I will try it and see. I wasn't planning on making it a negative experience for her, but at night if she makes a fuss (or in her case, tries to break out) was my reason for wanting amore sturdy crate  

Thanks again all for the advice!


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## welsh_lady21 (Sep 9, 2008)

My 7 month old has just realised its fun to chew the wall up. I've tried training him since we got him not to bang the doors for attention. ignoring him doesnt work, shouting doesnt work so what am i to do??


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

It is extremely difficult and heart rendering when so much time, effort and money has gone into trying to prevent things like this happening and it doesn't work .... and you eventually run out of ideas  I have been on the net most of the day looking at which crate to try next. I am hoping this training method will work and if you have not yet tried crate training, maybe it would be a good idea to try it and see how it goes. When your pup starts to get a little mischeivous, entice him into the crate with a treat and close the door for a while?? (Not as a punishment, but as a distraction). I don't know, but if he is distracted from the wall, maybe he will forget about it in time (as was mentioned by midori in an earlier post).


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## welsh_lady21 (Sep 9, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> It is extremely difficult and heart rendering when so much time, effort and money has gone into trying to prevent things like this happening and it doesn't work .... and you eventually run out of ideas  I have been on the net most of the day looking at which crate to try next. I am hoping this training method will work and if you have not yet tried crate training, maybe it would be a good idea to try it and see how it goes. When your pup starts to get a little mischeivous, entice him into the crate with a treat and close the door for a while?? (Not as a punishment, but as a distraction). I don't know, but if he is distracted from the wall, maybe he will forget about it in time (as was mentioned by midori in an earlier post).


Oh he's got a crate. He's also very good at escaping from the crate :lol2: Well my new years resolution was to give him proper training so tomorrow i am phoning a local trainer to see if they can help. Maybe if i got to some lessons it might help a bit? Thanks for your advise though!!!


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

welsh_lady21 said:


> Oh he's got a crate. He's also very good at escaping from the crate :lol2: Well my new years resolution was to give him proper training so tomorrow i am phoning a local trainer to see if they can help. Maybe if i got to some lessons it might help a bit? Thanks for your advise though!!!


Which make of crate do you use or where did you buy it (so that I don't go and get that one - my pup is a bit of an escape artist too) lol


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## welsh_lady21 (Sep 9, 2008)

:lol2: Pets at home i got mine. Tbh its falling apart n he's only 7 months old so i've only had it 6 months at the most. NUTS!


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## daikenkai (May 24, 2007)

Our Dane pup eats the walls, carpets and has now moved onto the coffee table. 
Teething is fun! lol. Blue grew out of wall eating so we're just hoping Bailey does too.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

mg: Really??? I was playing with the idea of getting one from there because they have an offer on at the mo!! Thanks Welsh Lady, I can scratch that one off my list :lol2: What breed is your pup??


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

daikenkai said:


> Our Dane pup eats the walls, carpets and has now moved onto the coffee table.
> Teething is fun! lol. Blue grew out of wall eating so we're just hoping Bailey does too.


 
Aaawww don't you just love 'em?? Worse than children at the best of times!!! Like I said in an earlier post, I have never had any puppy problems with any of my dogs and it is proving quite challenging with this one :lol2:


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

New Black VALU Metal Dog & Puppy Cage Crate Carrier 48" on eBay, also Carriers Crates, Dogs, Pet Supplies, Home Garden (end time 28-Jan-09 13:44:48 GMT)

We have these. The first has lasted 4 years! Good value for money.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Caz said:


> New Black VALU Metal Dog & Puppy Cage Crate Carrier 48" on eBay, also Carriers Crates, Dogs, Pet Supplies, Home Garden (end time 28-Jan-09 13:44:48 GMT)
> 
> We have these. The first has lasted 4 years! Good value for money.


 
I was contemplating these but read some of the negative feedback on them and it put me off because usually I ignore the negatives and end up with some pile of doo dah that I can't use lol 

Cheers Caz


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I find the crates made by Croft the best ones as they last forever:no1:http://www.croftonline.co.uk/mcp/Dog+crates+and+cages.html


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## welsh_lady21 (Sep 9, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> mg: Really??? I was playing with the idea of getting one from there because they have an offer on at the mo!! Thanks Welsh Lady, I can scratch that one off my list :lol2: What breed is your pup??


I have a Beagle. Crazy dog :lol2: But very loving and good most of the time to be honest. Just very stuborn!

With the cage i think i just need to clamp the bits that hold it together, together lol


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> Hi All
> 
> I have had dogs all my life and it seems that I have been spoiled rotten with their all round good behaviour because my 7 month old pup is very well behaved and extra ordinarily well focused, but a NIGHTMARE if left alone even for 2 seconds. I have been teaching her not to 'jump up' since we brought her home at 8 weeks old, but she still does it all the time. If in the kitchen (which is where she is kept if we have to leave her home and at night because of her tendancy to chew and jump up, knocking things down) she is up on the counters - LITERALLY!! Not just jumping up on, but actually ON TOP OF. She will then knock off anything that is on there and chew it up. My daughter had just made her lunch and was going to get her bag to put it in, but before she got back to the kitchen, it had been eaten. I hate being angry with her all the time because she is so good the rest of the time, but this is beginning to wear me down. The only other alternative is to attempt to crate train her, which I tried to do in the beginning but the neighbours complained as she would bark and scream all night long for weeks. If left alone for any period of time, I leave her toys and Kongs filled with goodies and food and water and I am constantly buying new toys and bones etc etc But it seems that her aim is to do this regardless. I have caught her in the act on several occassions and told her off, and she knows that what she is doing is wrong because she will try and hide when I come in the room (only when she has done it, other times she will greet me with an excited wiggle). I thought at first it was because she was bored, but she does this all the time, chews up anything and everything even after an hour or two at the beach, so I have now crossed boredom off my list. It is really bad because my 8 year old Golden Retreiver has started to think that this behaviour is acceptable too lol
> 
> ...


 I'm going to have this tattoed on my forehead.
Dogs do not know they have done worng. They crawl and hide because they are afraid of you and fear punishment. They know that you coming home means shouting and telling off so althought they are happy to see you home, they are also dreading the yelling.

What breed is it? How long is it left for?
What is the exersize regime you have going at the moment?


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> I'm going to have this tattoed on my forehead.
> Dogs do not know they have done wrong. They crawl and hide because they are afraid of you and fear punishment. They know that you coming home means shouting and telling off so althought they are happy to see you home, they are also dreading the yelling.


Hi Fenwoman. Just want to comment on this .... when you are toilet training a dog, what is it you do when you CATCH them peeing/pooping in the house?? You tell them NO in a stearn voice and take them outside?? When a dog has done something wrong or 'against house rules' and you want to let them know they have done wrong IF YOU CATCH THEM IN THE ACT, what do you do?? Tell them NO in a stearn voice and remove them from the room, am I right?? If they are caught in the act and told NO for doing the same thing over and over again, they are not stupid, they know something isn't right if that is THE ONLY time they are told off, which is how they learn. The problem is, my Springador is a very sharp little girl and learns very quickly, this is THE ONLY thing she has not picked up on which is why this is such a shock more than anything. I DO NOT tell her off if I don't actually see her doing something that she shouldn't be doing, maybe I should have made that clear in my original post. If she has an accident while I am not here, I DO NOT tell her off as it was not her fault I was not here to take her out. If she chews something up when I am not here, I DO NOT tell her off because I was not here to tell her that my slippers weren't for her to play with. By all means have whatever you want tattooed on your head (it will probably look great), I was simply asking for advice on a simpler way to deal with and overcome this, and it seems like crate training is the best way to do it.

I have just read back my original post and when I said 'I hate being angry with her all the time' I meant feeling angry, not actually physically angry, so you can calm down and deflate now. Also, when I said she sometimes tries to hide when I come home, the ONLY time she does this is if she has been on the worktops, knocked something down and chewed it up, all other times she is so jumpy and happy. So to me that says that because I tell her off IF I SEE HER DOING THIS, when she does it and I am not there, she is EXPECTING to be told off. Which says to me that she knows it's not right. I DO NOT tell her off or yell or shout when I come home or in the morning when I come down to take her for a walk because I DID NOT SEE HER DOING IT.

This has been going on for FIVE MONTHS now, and started with just jumping up, and for FIVE MONTHS I have been telling her NO and removing her from the room/situation. I understand why dog lovers get angry at certain things, but WOW I am a dog lover too trying to do the best by my own dog, don't you see that?? Would I be here asking for advice if that weren't true?? I could understand if you were replying to someone who had beaten their dog or worse, but I was asking for advice (on a subject that I obviously know nothing about) and I got a bitter and snappy reply. Thank You.

Shell - you're not the first person to recommend Crofts so I think that is probably the one I will get. Thank You.

Welsh Lady - Beagles are sooooo cute!!!


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## dragons jen (Aug 31, 2008)

My friend had the same problem with one of her GSD pups, it was constantly getting on the worktops. The way she managed to solve it was by setting up a CCTV camera to watch the dog and fitting the dog with one of those rempte control collars that spray citronella scented stuff.
She would sit in a different room watching the dog on TV and every time the dog made the slightest attempt to got on the worktops she would press the button on the remote and give the dog a spray. Within a few days the problem was solved. Not the cheapest method, but when she added up what the dog had broken, what it might break in the future and any damage it might do to itself it was well worth it.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Breezy_One said:


> Hi Fenwoman. Just want to comment on this .... when you are toilet training a dog, what is it you do when you CATCH them peeing/pooping in the house?? You tell them NO in a stearn voice and take them outside?? When a dog has done something wrong or 'against house rules' and you want to let them know they have done wrong IF YOU CATCH THEM IN THE ACT, what do you do?? Tell them NO in a stearn voice and remove them from the room, am I right?? If they are caught in the act and told NO for doing the same thing over and over again, they are not stupid, they know something isn't right if that is THE ONLY time they are told off, which is how they learn. The problem is, my Springador is a very sharp little girl and learns very quickly, this is THE ONLY thing she has not picked up on which is why this is such a shock more than anything. I DO NOT tell her off if I don't actually see her doing something that she shouldn't be doing, maybe I should have made that clear in my original post. If she has an accident while I am not here, I DO NOT tell her off as it was not her fault I was not here to take her out. If she chews something up when I am not here, I DO NOT tell her off because I was not here to tell her that my slippers weren't for her to play with. By all means have whatever you want tattooed on your head (it will probably look great), I was simply asking for advice on a simpler way to deal with and overcome this, and it seems like crate training is the best way to do it.
> 
> I have just read back my original post and when I said 'I hate being angry with her all the time' I meant feeling angry, not actually physically angry, so you can calm down and deflate now. Also, when I said she sometimes tries to hide when I come home, the ONLY time she does this is if she has been on the worktops, knocked something down and chewed it up, all other times she is so jumpy and happy. So to me that says that because I tell her off IF I SEE HER DOING THIS, when she does it and I am not there, she is EXPECTING to be told off. Which says to me that she knows it's not right. I DO NOT tell her off or yell or shout when I come home or in the morning when I come down to take her for a walk because I DID NOT SEE HER DOING IT.
> 
> ...


I don't think I am likely to agree with Fnwoman an awful lot, lol2 but I do agree on this. The dog isn't learning right from wrong when it is told off for something, even if it is caught inthe act. It is learning you get 'angry' (which it won't like) when you catch it doing whatever it is, and will then try to avoid you getting 'angry'. I use 'angry' to mean dspleased, saying no, or whatever. The dog will try and get you to say 'good boy/girl' in nice voices, not because it wants to please you, but because 'nice' things, such astreats, walks etc, all happen when you are 'happy'. 

What might happen if you 'chastise' the dog if you catch it doing something, which I think is probably what you have found here, is that it learns to only show the behaviour (jumping onto the worktops) when you are not there. 

If the dogs crate trained propery, it will never try to break out of the crate, as it will like being in it. Good luck once again. 

I haven't used the Cort crates, but have used the puppy pes, and they are very good.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

midori said:


> I don't think I am likely to agree with Fnwoman an awful lot, lol2 but I do agree on this. The dog isn't learning right from wrong when it is told off for something, even if it is caught inthe act. It is learning you get 'angry' (which it won't like) when you catch it doing whatever it is, and will then try to avoid you getting 'angry'. I use 'angry' to mean dspleased, saying no, or whatever. The dog will try and get you to say 'good boy/girl' in nice voices, not because it wants to please you, but because 'nice' things, such astreats, walks etc, all happen when you are 'happy'.
> 
> What might happen if you 'chastise' the dog if you catch it doing something, which I think is probably what you have found here, is that it learns to only show the behaviour (jumping onto the worktops) when you are not there.
> 
> ...


 
I totally agree on this too 

Also im sure i read that the dog is a springerdor...............2 working breeds rolled into one 

springers live up to thier name and spring.............mine goes off like a tigger springing round on her back legs something they dont really grow out of lol 

With her when she jumps up i just say no an place my hand on her head she sits there is no need to shout just say no 

they are high energy breeds are working breeds an need the energy run out of them otherwise they will spring about like loonys everywhere 

even if you dont work them they still need a purpose or lots of exercise


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

:lol2: My Rottie aged 11 months climbs onto the kitchen table all 4 feet naughty dog. We feed the cats on it and he always thinks he can get any bits left. Ive caught him in the act but I have to be careful not to spook him as if he throws himself off he will hurt himself. I also have a rescue X Staffie who can and will get up anywhere(she came from a house where she was left to fend for herself locked in the kitchen for days on end.) Shes 5 now and still does it if she thinks you cant see her. Most people have cats on high surfaces but in this house its dogs too:bash:. We are working on this but it doesnt help that everyone finds it funny.:blush:
Dogs.....................just as well we love em:flrt:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> :lol2: My Rottie aged 11 months climbs onto the kitchen table all 4 feet naughty dog. We feed the cats on it and he always thinks he can get any bits left. Ive caught him in the act but I have to be careful not to spook him as if he throws himself off he will hurt himself. I also have a rescue X Staffie who can and will get up anywhere(she came from a house where she was left to fend for herself locked in the kitchen for days on end.) Shes 5 now and still does it if she thinks you cant see her. Most people have cats on high surfaces but in this house its dogs too:bash:. We are working on this but it doesnt help that everyone finds it funny.:blush:
> Dogs.....................just as well we love em:flrt:


 
lol shell my GDS as pups (that my ex took when we split 6 years ago) used to get on the work tops i would come home from popping out an they would both be stood in the sink at the kitchen window 

i went through 6 irons with them no matter where i put them they managed to get them an threw them about like toys which broke every tile on the kicthen floor LOL................they ate the bottom step upstairs also chewed a hole through the back door................rip to shreds lots of items of clothing then would shite all over it out of protest :2thumb:

i never gave up on them i worked through all their problems they became fantastic dogs and still are i get updates on them from my ex now and again which is nice :flrt:


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## fuzzielady (May 19, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> I have just read back my original post and when I said 'I hate being angry with her all the time' *I meant feeling angry, not actually physically angry,* so you can calm down and deflate now. Also, when I said she sometimes tries to hide when I come home, the ONLY time she does this is if she has been on the worktops, knocked something down and chewed it up, all other times she is so jumpy and happy. So to me that says that because I tell her off IF I SEE HER DOING THIS, when she does it and I am not there, she is EXPECTING to be told off. Which says to me that she knows it's not right. I DO NOT tell her off or yell or shout when I come home or in the morning when I come down to take her for a walk because I DID NOT SEE HER DOING IT.


Dogs pick up on our feelings. So even though you are not acting angry towards her she will still feel it. She will not understand why you feel angry she will just know that you are. I am a great believer in crates for this reason. It doesn't matter how much you tell yourself to "not react and stay calm" the dog picks up on your feelings. 

Like has already been said you have 2 working breeds in one dog. Have you thought about introducing games/activities that will exercise her brain. You could exercise her body all day long and not tire her mentally. When she gets mentally bored she will make up her own games/activities. 

If you go for a crate like the one linked. It has a straight bar for closing/locking the door make sure you hold it straight up and slide it right along to make sure it is closed properly. 

The tips on crate training is spot on :no1: They really are wonderful. Once you have her settled in a crate you will wonder why you didn't stick with it first time.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

fuzzielady said:


> Dogs pick up on our feelings. So even though you are not acting angry towards her she will still feel it. She will not understand why you feel angry she will just know that you are. I am a great bekiever in crates for this reason. It doesn't matter how much you tell yourself to "not react and stay calm" the dog picks up on your feelings.
> 
> Like has already been said you have 2 working breeds in one dog. Have you thought about introducing games/activities that will exercise her brain. You could exercise her body all day long and not tire her mentally. When she gets mentally bored she will make up her own games/activities.
> 
> ...


 
100% agree 

I swear by crates an i have successfully crate trained a few dogs of ages from 5 wks up 

once they are used to the crate and if its used properly then they are fine with it 

when i have to go out anywhere now i open the stairs door all the dogs shoot upstairs and get into their crates 

they know its not gonna be for long and that they have comfy blankets in their crates so dont protest going into them


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> Hi Fenwoman. Just want to comment on this .... when you are toilet training a dog, what is it you do when you CATCH them peeing/pooping in the house?? You tell them NO in a stearn voice and take them outside?? When a dog has done something wrong or 'against house rules' and you want to let them know they have done wrong IF YOU CATCH THEM IN THE ACT, what do you do?? Tell them NO in a stearn voice and remove them from the room, am I right??


 Why did you ask me a question, and then answer it yourself?
I don't tell them "no" since dogs aren't born understanding the English language. Nor do I remove them from the room.
It's hard to explain how I vocalise but I sort of say "bububububup" in a high pitched voice if I catch them weeing in the house and take them outside whereupon I immediately say in a high voice "oh good weewee" even if they did it all indoors. The word "weewee" is used whenever I see one of the dogs ytoiletting. Even if we are outside and one of them goes to the toilet outside, I tell them "oh good weewee" so they know I approve. Eventually I only have to tell them to do a weewee and they know what I want them to do and they oblige even if they don't really need to go.





> If they are caught in the act and told NO for doing the same thing over and over again, they are not stupid, they know something isn't right if that is THE ONLY time they are told off, which is how they learn.


So why has your girl still not grasped it? You are saying that this is the way to do it when clearly it isn't as it isn't working is it?



> The problem is, my Springador is a very sharp little girl and learns very quickly, this is THE ONLY thing she has not picked up on which is why this is such a shock more than anything. I DO NOT tell her off if I don't actually see her doing something that she shouldn't be doing, maybe I should have made that clear in my original post. If she has an accident while I am not here, I DO NOT tell her off as it was not her fault I was not here to take her out. If she chews something up when I am not here, I DO NOT tell her off because I was not here to tell her that my slippers weren't for her to play with.


So if you come home and find the floor awash and stuff chewed up, you say nothing ? So why does she run and hide?
Animals have no sense of guilt. 



> By all means have whatever you want tattooed on your head (it will probably look great), I was simply asking for advice on a simpler way to deal with and overcome this, and it seems like crate training is the best way to do it.


I may just have 'dogs don't feel guilty' tattooed on my forehead if anyone can do it over the wrinkles.




> I have just read back my original post and when I said 'I hate being angry with her all the time' I meant feeling angry, not actually physically angry, so you can calm down and deflate now.


 You don't need to get physically angry with her. Dogs communication is 95% body language and only 5% vocal. Humans are the opposite. So you come home and even though you say nothing, your body language is telling her you are feeling angry.




> Also, when I said she sometimes tries to hide when I come home, the ONLY time she does this is if she has been on the worktops, knocked something down and chewed it up, all other times she is so jumpy and happy. So to me that says that because I tell her off IF I SEE HER DOING THIS, when she does it and I am not there, she is EXPECTING to be told off. Which says to me that she knows it's not right.


 Please belive me that for a start if she jumped up and knocked something down at some point while you are away, by the time you get home she has forgotten it happens. You mentuion yourself that you understand how important it is to catch them in the act so you must realise that something which happened 10 minutes previous to your coming home just doesn't factor in their mind. It's done, finished forgotten. Dogs have no sense of shame or guilt. That's not an opinion, it is simple fact.



> I DO NOT tell her off or yell or shout when I come home or in the morning when I come down to take her for a walk because I DID NOT SEE HER DOING IT


 You see this is where I am confused. Since I know that she has already forgotten what happened and since you say you act normally and offer no punishment (and by that I mean telling off aswell as physical punishment), Why would she be fearful if you never tell her off? Why is she anticipating something unpleasant about to happen when you open the door? She doesn't feel guilty or shameful for being on the worktops because she has forgotten being up there in the first place.



> This has been going on for FIVE MONTHS now, and started with just jumping up, and for FIVE MONTHS I have been telling her NO and removing her from the room/situation.


 But you said earlier that if you tell them "no" often, they grasp it. This is obviously not working so why simply carry on with something which isn't working?



> I understand why dog lovers get angry at certain things, but WOW I am a dog lover too trying to do the best by my own dog, don't you see that??


 I never said you don't love your dog. You must love her to put up with something which drives you wild.




> Would I be here asking for advice if that weren't true?? I could understand if you were replying to someone who had beaten their dog or worse, but I was asking for advice (on a subject that I obviously know nothing about) and I got a bitter and snappy reply. Thank You.


 When you know me better you'l realise that my response was in no way bitter nor snappy. Believe me, I have blistered some ears on here and in real life.
I am actually trying to get you to see that your training methods and beliefs are misguided and obviously not working and so something has to change. Hence my asking you some questions. I run an animal advice line and sometimes have to ask questions which might seem irrelevant in order to get a better picture of where the problem may lie.


So if you are interested in sorting the problem out, rather than simply shutting a problem dog in a cage, then I will ask again, what is her exersize regime and how long is she being left.


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## Golgarth (Aug 27, 2008)

I am just in the process of trying to crate train my new patterdale terrier, thankfully he will live outside (well, outside and the outhouse) with my other dog when he is a few months older (only 9 weeks atm)

So far the crate has saved us much more than the £39 it cost in chewing! and that's only a week. Been kind spoilt for years as our current dog (a rescue) is PERFECT in every way, she does NOTHING wrong, ever.....bet the new one makes us realise how good she is...


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

fuzzielady said:


> Like has already been said you have 2 working breeds in one dog. Have you thought about introducing games/activities that will exercise her brain. You could exercise her body all day long and not tire her mentally. When she gets mentally bored she will make up her own games/activities.


I hear what you are saying .. In fact I hear what you all are saying, and it does make sense when you step outside and take a look from a different perspective. I have been spoiled like I said before as all my dogs (and I used to foster Rotti's at one point) were well behaved and laid back from the get go. Are there any mentally challenging games you can think of that I can play with her. She is soooo much fun to play with!!! We go on the beach at night and when I throw her ball on a rope, she can't always see or hear where it lands and she will not stop looking/sniffing it out til she has found it. I have tried these games at home too with yummy treats like cooked chicken and bacon and she loves it. Even if I hide her fave toy, she won't stop til she has found it. Like I said, she is extra ordinarily focused. 

I have tried to get her into agility classes which I believe will benefit her greatly (not to show, but just for fun) but was told that she is too young. This is the time that she needs it the most!!! I have considered maybe having her trained for retreiving as it is a huge thing around where I live, but I don't think I could bare to see the limp pheasants and quails she will be bringing back.

By the way, as I am writing this, she is tucked up all snug in her crate sleeping soundly and get this, the door is closed!! It will probably be a different story when I leave the room but this alone is progress!! I must admit that my Goldie had no worries using it as his new bed - He hopped right in as soon as I set it up, she wasn't so enthusiastic, but as you can see, she followed his lead on this one lol


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

You do realise that high protein treats will make her hyper?
How long roughly is she left during the day? (have asked 3 times now and got no reply)
What is her exersize routine?


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> You do realise that high protein treats will make her hyper?
> How long roughly is she left during the day? (have asked 3 times now and got no reply)
> What is her exersize routine?


30 mins in the morning, 30 at lunch time and 1-3 hours in the evening (dependant on the weather but never less than about an hour). She is left for 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the afternoon. And she doesn't get the 'meaty' treats all the time, only occassionally.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

My 12 week old Chihuahua puppy Lolly goes into her pet carrier when she is going to be left alone for any length of time. She is fine in there & just curls up in her little guinea pig bed & goes to sleep.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Breezy_One said:


> I was contemplating these but read some of the negative feedback on them and it put me off because usually I ignore the negatives and end up with some pile of doo dah that I can't use lol
> 
> Cheers Caz


All I can say is the 3 I've got have been fine and good value for money. :2thumb:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

I must admit I have always been opposed to cages. Mainly for the reason that people who want to leave their active dog all day long and not want the inconvenience of it going mental through boredom and trashing the place, tend to keep the dog in a cage for the whole 8 hours and think nothing of it.
For myself, I would love there to be some kind of law which prohibited dogs from being kept in cages like a hamster for longer than an hour at a time.
I think that if someone wants to leave a dog for 8 hours a day, then they should build a kennel and run outside instead of cramming a dog into a cage for that length of time. Ultimately it leads to further behavioural problems as the dog gets cramped, can't let off energy and feels isolated and trapped.
I have recently bought myself some large dog cages on wheels made by pawpurs. Not to keep dogs in but because I'm redoing the dog room and they make great dog beds and the larger dogs sleep on the top of them and in freezing cold weather, I drape the sides and back with a throw to keep the little dogs cosy. The only time I ever confine anything with the door closed is Chalky if I go out in the car and cannot take him with me as he is so bonded to me that he will fly over fences and hedges in a desperate attempt to run down the lane after my car. So he gets shut into one of them for the short time I have to go out which is never longer than an hour. Any longer and he comes with me. I would not dream of shutting him in for 8 hours.To me that is simply cruel.If I couldn't take him with me and planned on being out for longer than an hour, I'd shut him and some others for company, into the dog run.
Any dog confined to a cage for 8 hours will end up barking and howling and chewing the bars in a frantic attempt to escape after a while and will suffer severe discomfort if they needed the toilet. Also they are a real danger to epileptic dogs. The armed forces discontinued their use when transporting security dogs because of the number of dogs legs which got broken if the dog slept, then woke with a jolt and their leg had fallen through the bars.
It bothers me that shutting a dog into a wire cage for the sake of convenience for 8 hours or more is being widely touted as a desireable and necessary thing to do and then saying that the dogs like it!:bash:
I will not ever be able to endorse such use of them.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> I must admit I have always been opposed to cages. Mainly for the reason that people who want to leave their active dog all day long and not want the inconvenience of it going mental through boredom and trashing the place, tend to keep the dog in a cage for the whole 8 hours and think nothing of it.
> For myself, I would love there to be some kind of law which prohibited dogs from being kept in cages like a hamster for longer than an hour at a time.
> I think that if someone wants to leave a dog for 8 hours a day, then they should build a kennel and run outside instead of cramming a dog into a cage for that length of time. Ultimately it leads to further behavioural problems as the dog gets cram, can't let off energy and feels isolated and trapped.
> I have recently bought myself some large dog cages on wheels made by pawpurs. Not to keep dogs in but because I'm redoing the dog room and they make great dog beds and the larger dogs sleep on the top of them and in freezing cold weather, I drape the sides and back with a throw to keep the little dogs cosy. The only time I ever confine anything with the door closed is Chalky if I go out in the car and cannot take him with me as he is so bonded to me that he will fly over fences and hedges in a desperate attempt to run down the lane after my car. So he gets shut into one of them for the short time I have to go out which is never longer than an hour. Any longer and he comes with me. I would not dream of shutting him in for 8 hours.To me that is simply cruel.If I couldn't take him with me and planned on being out for longer than an hour, I'd shut him and some others for company, into the dog run.
> ...


:lol2: :lol2: I knew this was coming and you wondered why I was reluctant to answer your question?? Understandably you are in disagreement with cages and said so from the start, but I feel you were pushing the issue just so you could get your little rant out :lol2::lol2:

Anyways, I have always been against them until now, and I hope that it will be worth the use and training. It is a 'training aid' and as many people who have already tried and tested them, and no longer need them for training purposes but use them as beds for their dogs. Instead of offering some useful info and answers to my question, you decided to rant on about what 'in your opinion' (everybody has them, not just you) is wrong. 

Thank you for your input, and I believe I have now resolved my issue.

Thank you all for your input, it was very helpful.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

I did try to offer help but to do so I needed further info. The fact that you knew that part of the problem is the fact that you have an intelligent ultra active working breed young dog which gets shut up and left alone for 8 hours a day. The mere fact that you didn't want to mention this, but prefered to let people think that there was some other issue, explains a lot. The rant (as you call it) wasn't aimed just at you but at anyone else who thinks that it's acceptable to get a large active dog despite the fact that it will be left alone for most of the day, then lock it into a metal cage all day long because the fact that they leave it alone all day, is causing behavioural problems.
If the cap fits....................:whistling2:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> I did try to offer help but to do so I needed further info. The fact that you knew that part of the problem is the fact that you have an intelligent ultra active working breed young dog which gets shut up and left alone for 8 hours a day. The mere fact that you didn't want to mention this, but prefered to let people think that there was some other issue, explains a lot. The rant (as you call it) wasn't aimed just at you but at anyone else who thinks that it's acceptable to get a large active dog despite the fact that it will be left alone for most of the day, then lock it into a metal cage all day long because the fact that they leave it alone all day, is causing behavioural problems.
> If the cap fits....................:whistling2:


I am not going to keep on with this because like I said, we all have our opinions, and I would like to keep this as civil as possible. It seems to me that you would rather see her as a statistic ... just another dog in a home. You do not know all the facts, only what is here and now. First of all I don't need to answer to anyone, least of all you :lol2: Second of all Bye bye and ty again. (And I can tell you are the type of person to always have the last word, so be my guest).


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

My friend who breeds GSD and runs a Petfood supplies will NEVER sell a crate with a puppy as she says too many people abuse them. She believes in them as a training aid used correctly but knows lots of people who lock their dogs up in them for many hours.If a crated active dog is left in one for many hours where does that energy go?? It doesnt just vanish it shows itself as more behavioural problems than what the dog had before. I have only used them with very tiny pups for their own safety during the night or for confining feral kittens. So if used for short periods they are a good idea but if used as a prison then I too agree with our wise lady Fenny who is actually very knowledgable


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> I am not going to keep on with this because like I said, we all have our opinions, and I would like to keep this as civil as possible. It seems to me that you would rather see her as a statistic ... just another dog in a home. You do not know all the facts, only what is here and now. First of all I don't need to answer to anyone, least of all you :lol2: Second of all Bye bye and ty again. (And I can tell you are the type of person to always have the last word, so be my guest).


 It has nothing to do with having the last word or being right or anything else.
You started a thread because you have a problem with your dog and you asked for help and adcive.
In order to try to offer valid advice and help, I (and everyone else) needed the full picture. Since you admit that you didn't provide all the facts, and since you decided not to mention that she was being left for 8 hours a day shut into a single room, how could anyone get the full picture, in order to figure out what was causing the problem, then offer advice as to how to make changes and stop the problem?

The way I see it you think "I have a young active working dog, which, because I leave it alone shut in a room all day, going crazy with boredom and then leaps onto worktops, chews things etc, what can I do? Oh I know, I'll shut her up in a small cage all day long so she can't cause any damage while she is going mental".
I have no idea what statistics you refer to. Ideally you wouldn't have got her seeing as you work full time. But since you have got her, I still think being in a spacious secure run with a cosy shed to sleep in, with another dog for company, would be the best she could have in your home with your working hours.
I realise that you are angry and dislike me because I've expresses an opinion which you don't like the sound of and that's your perogative.
Had anyone phoned me and asked for my help or advice, I would have said exactly the same to them.
I don't happen to belive that it is anyone's right to have a dog and then leave it all day long. It doesn't help that she is young and a cross between 2 very intelligent working breeds with a very high need for mental stimulation aswell as physical exersize. To get that dog despite your working hours, and then lock her into a metal cage when she starts showing you that she is distressed at being left for that length of time , is, I'm afraid, not the actions of someone who is a considerate dog owner. It smacks of selfishness.
You want a dog, you want that dog despite not having the right environment for it so we'll get it anyway and then make it suffer for our own convenience.
I don't dislike you, I am not insulting you andI don't doubt that you love her.
I simply believe that you are doing wrong by her, that's all.
Now a kennel and run.....that's a whole different story and I believe she'd actually be very happy in a kennel and run.Certainly happier than in a small metal cage all day long going quietly nuts.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> My friend who breeds GSD and runs a Petfood supplies will NEVER sell a crate with a puppy as she says too many people abuse them. She believes in them as a training aid used correctly but knows lots of people who lock their dogs up in them for many hours.If a crated active dog is left in one for many hours where does that energy go?? It doesnt just vanish it shows itself as more behavioural problems than what the dog had before. I have only used them with very tiny pups for their own safety during the night or for confining feral kittens. So if used for short periods they are a good idea but if used as a prison then I too agree with our wise lady Fenny who is actually very knowledgable



Thanks Shell. That is what I was trying to get across.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> My friend who breeds GSD and runs a Petfood supplies will NEVER sell a crate with a puppy as she says too many people abuse them. She believes in them as a training aid used correctly but knows lots of people who lock their dogs up in them for many hours.If a crated active dog is left in one for many hours where does that energy go?? It doesnt just vanish it shows itself as more behavioural problems than what the dog had before. I have only used them with very tiny pups for their own safety during the night or for confining feral kittens. So if used for short periods they are a good idea but if used as a prison then I too agree with our wise lady Fenny who is actually very knowledgable


 
I use crates for mine but unless im going somewhere in the case i am i would ask someone to come in and let the dogs out every few hours 

i dont like to leave them crated for longer than 2 to 3 hours at a time 

even when i do go back to work part time which will only be 3 hours a day i will still ask my mum to come on and let the dogs out 

Though as most people know im working on a dog room so hopefully crates wont be needed any more once thats sorted as it will be their own room thats dog proofed so they are safe and can roam their room freely


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Emmaj said:


> I use crates for mine but unless im going somewhere in the case i am i would ask someone to come in and let the dogs out every few hours
> 
> i dont like to leave them crated for longer than 2 to 3 hours at a time
> 
> ...


 
Yes Emma I know you use crates but you use them correctly which is fine its when people want to crate for 8 hours at a time that problems occur


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## Mish (Nov 17, 2008)

Can I ask for what period of time do you use these crates, by which I mean at what age would it be considered 'safe' to stop using them. Surely they are not a long term solution to chewing, jumping etc..

And is there any guarantee that the behaviour which has been solved by locking them up will not recur once the crate is removed?

Very interesting discussion.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

I haven't locked her in the cage less than a day after introducing her to it. It is obvious that you have made your judgement and I acknowledge your comments and pleased that you have judged the situation so well. I commend you for your enthusiasm. 

Like I said you don't know all the facts so maybe this should end now as I am not willing to discuss it further. You are not helping in anyway, so no point continuing.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Mish said:


> Can I ask for what period of time do you use these crates, by which I mean at what age would it be considered 'safe' to stop using them. Surely they are not a long term solution to chewing, jumping etc..
> 
> And is there any guarantee that the behaviour which has been solved by locking them up will not recur once the crate is removed?
> 
> Very interesting discussion.


It all depends on the breed of dogs really


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Yes Emma I know you use crates but you use them correctly which is fine its when people want to crate for 8 hours at a time that problems occur


Aye i know shell just wanted to talk about my big plans for the dawgie room again :lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

How far have you got then??


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## Mish (Nov 17, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> I haven't locked her in the cage less than a day after introducing her to it. It is obvious that you have made your judgement and I acknowledge your comments and pleased that you have judged the situation so well. I commend you for your enthusiasm.
> 
> Like I said you don't know all the facts so maybe this should end now as I am not willing to discuss it further. You are not helping in anyway, so no point continuing.


Not sure to whom this was directed but anyhow...

It'd be intersting to hear from anyone who has successfully used a crate and then stopped using it without the problem still being there afterwards.

I very breifly used one for my Goldie pup purely for toilet training purposes-I was told they don't pee n poo where they sleep-WRONG!

Still, he has fortunately grown out of this now.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> How far have you got then??


I have most the junk cleared just some boxes to move need to give it a good clean an remove the chest freezer then give it a paint :2thumb:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Mish said:


> Not sure to whom this was directed but anyhow...
> 
> It'd be intersting to hear from anyone who has successfully used a crate and then stopped using it without the problem still being there afterwards.
> 
> ...


i have some dogs that never grow out of destroying accidntly so i wouldnt stop using my crates until i have the dog room sorted for them :2thumb:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Mine are NEVER left alone so no need to crate in fact if you think about it Im the one thats caged:whistling2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> Mine are NEVER left alone so no need to crate in fact if you think about it Im the one thats caged:whistling2:


LOL thats so very true 

I dont go out often but there i things i have to do such as school runs an shoppin sooooo i have to use a crate as there is only me an lew here noone to stay with them while am out


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I actually bribe my kids to dog sit or Ste does it or I would never go anywhere hence why I am not replacing my dogs as they get old


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> I actually bribe my kids to dog sit or Ste does it or I would never go anywhere hence why I am not replacing my dogs as they get old


 
its what people who truely care about their animals do though............they put their animals 1st 

if everyone was like us then we wouldn have the over crowding problems in rescues an such and dogs being PTS for no reason other than they aint wanted


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

That is sadly too true.

:lol2: Just looking at my lot 10 are slobbed out on the furniture and 1 in front of the fire. Its a dogs life:whistling2:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Mish said:


> Not sure to whom this was directed but anyhow...
> 
> It'd be intersting to hear from anyone who has successfully used a crate and then stopped using it without the problem still being there afterwards.
> 
> ...


I have. I have used a crate with my litters (always under superision, I NEVER leave a litter unattended at any time, and the pups are onl evr shut i whilst I am there, so I can do a quick mop of the floor without 10 puppies all hanging off the mop! :lol2 and I have used a crate with my young puppies, (that I am keeping) both to assist toilet training, and to prevent any accidentally getting hurt by the bigger dogs during the night. 

I still have the crates in the kitchen, but don't use them (eg. don't shut anything in them) once pups are older and can 'be clean' all night without the crate, and once they are taught not to chew things that don't belong to them. I have neverhad anything at allcewed by my puppies or dogs. That's not to say they haven't picked thing up that doesn't belong to them, but they are totally supervised when young, so that I can soon correct their behaviour. 

In general, puppies will not soil their bed, so if the crate is their bed, they will not usualy soil it. However,if they have not been kept in clean conditions while with the breeder, the become used to living in their own excrement, and will toilet anywhere. Also, most young puppies are not physically able to hold on all night, so if they are shut in a crate, they have no choice but to go in there, which is cruel IMO. 

As has been said, crate are a training aid, not a substitute for training. 

I never leave my dogs for longer than 4 hours, and as said, none are shut in th crates once older, and other than overnight, have never been shut in for longer than an hour or two. However, I have filmd temwhile I am out, and one of them sleeps in the crate that whole time.

Would love to see your Goldens.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Breezyone, although I agree with crates, I do not think one is the solution here, given that the dog will be left in it for 8 hours, even if there is a break in between. I know this is not what you want to hear, but I do think you'll just end up with an unhappy dog that is even more unhappy because it is,in effect, imprisoned. 

Iknow quiteafew people with working dogs and they all say a springer cross lab is a dog they would never have, as they have a reputation for being extremely difficult unless given a ridiculous amount exercise. Obviously you can't do that with a pup, due to it's growing bones. 

Is there any way someone can have the pup during the day for you, or even part of the day?


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Shell195 said:


> That is sadly too true.
> 
> :lol2: Just looking at my lot 10 are slobbed out on the furniture and 1 in front of the fire. Its a dogs life:whistling2:


mine are playing in the yard at the moment :lol2:


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

midori said:


> Breezyone, although I agree with crates, I do not think one is the solution here, given that the dog will be left in it for 8 hours, even if there is a break in between. I know this is not what you want to hear, but I do think you'll just end up with an unhappy dog that is even more unhappy because it is,in effect, imprisoned.
> 
> Iknow quiteafew people with working dogs and they all say a springer cross lab is a dog they would never have, as they have a reputation for being extremely difficult unless given a ridiculous amount exercise. Obviously you can't do that with a pup, due to it's growing bones.
> 
> Is there any way someone can have the pup during the day for you, or even part of the day?


that would be a good option too 

my uncle has a puppy nursery where his basset hound goes while he is out as he suffers from seperation anxity and just barks an barks an barks when they are out they tried everything on him which didnt work and they dint wanna rehome so he now stays at a dawgie day care place while they are working :no1:


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## dragons jen (Aug 31, 2008)

Breezy One, do you actually want to train you dog not go on the worktops or to prevent it from doing so?
A cage will not train it not to do this.
I must agree with Fenwoman that 4 hour at a time on a regular basis is too long to leave a dog in a cage, especially a young and very active dog. They can turn their frustration at being confined into bad habits such as chewing themselves.
My sugestion would be to have a look on the Assocciation of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) web site and see if there is a trainer near you who could give you some one to one lessons at home to try to solve this problem. Yes it will cost money, but in this case cure is better than prevention.


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## lenemily (Jul 7, 2008)

Breezy i think i must have your dogs twin sister :lol2: and seriously ANY
help/advice will be totally apreciated 

"Terra" is a staffy x 14mths old and she is a stubborn hyperactive cowbag :devil:

Our other staffy is a diamond very well trained well mannered and such a pleasure 
terra on the other hand is driving me mental she is crate trained but so distructive 
even with us in the house she is like a tasmanian devil and distroys everything in her path she chews the walls doors shoes fences ....anything 
she digs up the whole garden insists on sitting on the other dogs head :devil: im sure there is a dominance issue going on here as our other much older staffy is so calm and well mannered she wouldnt put her in her place 
she is booked to be spayed next month and im hoping it will calm her down some
They both have tons of excersise there walked in the morning and then to the field for a run in the afternoon and then a walk of a evening and she is a friggen nightmare on the lead too she has a harness but pulls so hard my arms feel like there coming out !! 
she has a ton of toys but rarely bothers with them 
any advice ?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

lenemily said:


> Breezy i think i must have your dogs twin sister :lol2: and seriously ANY
> help/advice will be totally apreciated
> 
> "Terra" is a staffy x 14mths old and she is a stubborn hyperactive cowbag :devil:
> ...


 What are you feeding her? What is the exersize regime? Apart from the walks in the north London fields, does she get any other exersize like playing in the garden?
Incidentally, if you don't want her to pull, why put her in a harness? Think carthorse. What do they wear to be able to pull heavy loads? Yup, a harness.
You'll need either a halti or a lupi harness. Of course it won't look as macho but having a macho looking dog and dislocated shoulder joints ain't cool :lol2:
Have you done any proper dog training at a class with her? Do you understand about pack heirachy and ensure she is fully understanding her low position within the pack?
As I said to Breezy, to be able to help properly, we need a fuller picture in order to be able to pinpoint a possible problem area and offer a solution.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

My Chihuahua puppy Lolly is left in her pet carrier for about 4-5 hours a day whilst I am at work until Clark my OH comes home from his work.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> My Chihuahua puppy Lolly is left in her pet carrier for about 4-5 hours a day whilst I am at work until Clark my OH comes home from his work.


 well I'm sorry but that is just plain wrong :bash:
Is she also in it overnight? If so, that is 13 hours she is kept in a cage out of 24.
Did the breeder know she was going to be shut in a cage for most of the day?
I refuse to sell puppies to people who say they will keep them in cages.
You hate Cesar Milan because he uses a prong collar, but you freely admit that you leave your little pup in a cage for hours on end because you are not home for most of the day.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> well I'm sorry but that is just plain wrong :bash:
> Is she also in it overnight? If so, that is 13 hours she is kept in a cage out of 24.
> Did the breeder know she was going to be shut in a cage for most of the day?
> I refuse to sell puppies to people who say they will keep them in cages.
> You hate Cesar Milan because he uses a prong collar, but you freely admit that you leave your little pup in a cage for hours on end because you are not home for most of the day.


Yes she is in the carrier overnight, which is actually another 4-5 hours, as I am up til the early hours (as many can vouch for on here!). She gets a good play session before I leave for work & when Clark comes home she is out & causing mayhem again hehe. 

The breeder is a friend of mine, & knows how my animals are kept.

I hate Ceasar Milan because he uses harsh training techniques that are not based on positives. I am open about saying I leave my pup in her carrier for a few hours because I do not feel that is bad.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Shame you arent nearer Colin as she could stay at mine while you are out. I would love to dogsit Lolly:flrt:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks Shell. But she is fine in her carrier. She has a little guinea pig bed in there which is like a hooded cat bed but is tiny & fur lined. Its so cute to see her sleeping in there! hehe


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## lenemily (Jul 7, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> What are you feeding her? What is the exersize regime? Apart from the walks in the north London fields, does she get any other exersize like playing in the garden?
> Incidentally, if you don't want her to pull, why put her in a harness? Think carthorse. What do they wear to be able to pull heavy loads? Yup, a harness.
> You'll need either a halti or a lupi harness. Of course it won't look as macho but having a macho looking dog and dislocated shoulder joints ain't cool :lol2:
> Have you done any proper dog training at a class with her? Do you understand about pack heirachy and ensure she is fully understanding her low position within the pack?
> As I said to Breezy, to be able to help properly, we need a fuller picture in order to be able to pinpoint a possible problem area and offer a solution.


ahh the blondeness hits me again didnt tell the full story..... its been a long day 
Fenwoman ... we have a huge garden and she has access to it at all times thru the day and runs riot so that also is in with her excersise when i sa harness i dont mean the stupid leather macho harness she has a halti harness (BTW cant stand those leather ones) she has some puppy training the basics ... 
TBH i dont actually totally understand pack heirachy 
i was a little dim when it come to getting her as i said before on another thread she is a cross with ... i think a pbt and the little :censor: that had her was beating the hell out of her to "train" her and she was only a couple of months old thats the problems with chavs and wanna be gangsters owning a strong dog i saw it and her and in the end bought her from him im way to soft and didnt wanna see another poor dog pts or made to fight to make its owners look cool 
we have always had staffys even from when i was younger and TBH they all just kinda fell into their right place within the pack ..... she is fed on james wellbeloved kibble lamb and rice or duck and rice (her favs)

again any advice is really apreciated


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

lenemily said:


> ahh the blondeness hits me again didnt tell the full story..... its been a long day
> Fenwoman ... we have a huge garden and she has access to it at all times thru the day and runs riot so that also is in with her excersise when i sa harness i dont mean the stupid leather macho harness she has a halti harness (BTW cant stand those leather ones) she has some puppy training the basics ...
> TBH i dont actually totally understand pack heirachy
> i was a little dim when it come to getting her as i said before on another thread she is a cross with ... i think a pbt and the little :censor: that had her was beating the hell out of her to "train" her and she was only a couple of months old thats the problems with chavs and wanna be gangsters owning a strong dog i saw it and her and in the end bought her from him im way to soft and didnt wanna see another poor dog pts or made to fight to make its owners look cool
> ...


Don't worry about pack heirachy - most people dont understand it, & it is still unproven that that is how dogs live their lives.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

lenemily said:


> ahh the blondeness hits me again didnt tell the full story..... its been a long day
> Fenwoman ... we have a huge garden and she has access to it at all times thru the day and runs riot so that also is in with her excersise when i sa harness i dont mean the stupid leather macho harness she has a halti harness (BTW cant stand those leather ones) she has some puppy training the basics ...
> TBH i dont actually totally understand pack heirachy
> i was a little dim when it come to getting her as i said before on another thread she is a cross with ... i think a pbt and the little :censor: that had her was beating the hell out of her to "train" her and she was only a couple of months old thats the problems with chavs and wanna be gangsters owning a strong dog i saw it and her and in the end bought her from him im way to soft and didnt wanna see another poor dog pts or made to fight to make its owners look cool
> ...


 Not sure what she is walked on. The halti is something you put on her face like a bridle. They can't pull with them.So I'm a bit confused too lol.
Do you actually take her on the lead to walk and then can she go off lead to run hard anywhere safe? Som dogs need a lot of exersize and garden playing and lead walking just isn't enough for them. My Chalky is one of those.
Perhaps if you haven't had her long she may still be finding her feet and learning who is in charge in your home?
At 14 months she will be full of 'fizz' and energy. Is she now on the adult James wellbeloved? Does she get scraps or treats at all?It may be relevant.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Yes she is in the carrier overnight, which is actually another 4-5 hours, as I am up til the early hours (as many can vouch for on here!). She gets a good play session before I leave for work & when Clark comes home she is out & causing mayhem again hehe.
> 
> The breeder is a friend of mine, & knows how my animals are kept.
> 
> I hate Ceasar Milan because he uses harsh training techniques that are not based on positives. I am open about saying I leave my pup in her carrier for a few hours because I do not feel that is bad.


 
*Thank you* Zoo-Man. I can honestly say that this is the best decision I have made in my life and would just like to update and say that since the crate came home, my l'il girl has calmed down with regard to my original post. I have not locked the cage door as yet as I haven't needed to. *SHE LOVES IT IN THERE!* And after a tiresome play session at the beach of an evening, she now sleeps with me, rather than being left in the kitchen. I must say that I have NEVER allowed any of my dogs to sleep in the bedrooms, but I have made an exception and it has paid off with great rewards. Thank you all who advised that crate training might be a solution. I don't know why or how it has made such a HUGE difference and in such a short time, but it has and we are so much happier now. The crate is situated in the Living Room and I now keep the kitchen door closed and she has access to the rest of the house during the day and the house is when I get home as it was when I left. 

At this point I would just like to say, the reason I had her confined to the kitchen was because I felt like I couldn't yet trust her in any other part of the house because of her obsession with chewing as I had tried it early on to leave her to have free range of the house (only for a short time), but would come back to mayhem and she would take herself upstairs and pee everywhere up there. I am not saying this for anyone to comment on, it is just the way it was. I did everything with her, that I have always done with all my dogs and apart from her, none of the others even attempted to chew. The only thing different between them and her, is that I was working from home, but a few months after she came to us, I had no choice but to go out to work rather than work from home.

I would recommend crate training to anyone. Like I said, no coaxing has been necessary, nor has it been necessary to lock the crate door, as she WANTS to be in there, she loves it and so does my Golden Retreiver. On the first night I got it, I fed her a few treats to let her know that it was a 'nice' place to be and now, when she is not playing she goes in there of her own accord. This evening after playing with my Golden she went to have a rest but the door to the crate was closed (not locked) and she whimpered and scratched to try and get it to open.

I took all the advice on this method of training both from you guys that have used crate training before and recommended it and from others that I know use crates and it only took ONE NIGHT for her to fall in love with it. Thank you again and again and again and again to all of you advising on this method of training, I am so so grateful for your input!!!!!! :2thumb: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy::2thumb:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

No probs Breezy! Dog crates are a great training aid & when used correctly, replicate a dog's/wolve's den, so when people say they are cruel (as has been said about me in this thread) they are often seeing a crate as a doggie prison. And when you think about it, how many hours a day does a puppy sleep? Lots! So puppies are glad of a quiet secure den to get some well needed rest in.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> *Thank you* Zoo-Man. I can honestly say that this is the best decision I have made in my life and would just like to update and say that since the crate came home, my l'il girl has calmed down with regard to my original post. I have not locked the cage door as yet as I haven't needed to. *SHE LOVES IT IN THERE!* And after a tiresome play session at the beach of an evening, she now sleeps with me, rather than being left in the kitchen. I must say that I have NEVER allowed any of my dogs to sleep in the bedrooms, but I have made an exception and it has paid off with great rewards. Thank you all who advised that crate training might be a solution. I don't know why or how it has made such a HUGE difference and in such a short time, but it has and we are so much happier now. The crate is situated in the Living Room and I now keep the kitchen door closed and she has access to the rest of the house during the day and the house is when I get home as it was when I left.
> 
> At this point I would just like to say, the reason I had her confined to the kitchen was because I felt like I couldn't yet trust her in any other part of the house because of her obsession with chewing as I had tried it early on to leave her to have free range of the house (only for a short time), but would come back to mayhem and she would take herself upstairs and pee everywhere up there. I am not saying this for anyone to comment on, it is just the way it was. I did everything with her, that I have always done with all my dogs and apart from her, none of the others even attempted to chew. The only thing different between them and her, is that I was working from home, but a few months after she came to us, I had no choice but to go out to work rather than work from home.
> 
> ...



Interesting. You now don't confine her to one small room for hours, you keep the door to that room closed, you let her sleep in the bedroom but the whole success is based on the fact that you have a metal cage erected in your living room for her to sleep in. It's a miracle. Are you sure the change hasn't got something to do with her being less bored and confined, and the fact that with the door closed, she cannot get into the kitchen to jump on the worktops? Or that you stepped up her exersize?

And are you sure she "fell in love" with a lump of metal? 
There are raised cages in my dog rooms. The doors are never closed, they have no catches on them anyway. The little dogs sleep in them. However I wouldn't say that they were in love with them. They are just places to sleep in that's all, for those who sleep downstairs that is. I have several in and on my bed with me along with several cats and any of the neighbours who come in through the window.
Perhaps these crates are a miraculous new method of training? You buy a cage, put it up in the living room, your dog falls in love with it and all behavioural problems cease immediately. Amazing.:flrt:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> No probs Breezy! Dog crates are a great training aid & when used correctly, replicate a dog's/wolve's den, so when people say they are cruel (as has been said about me in this thread) they are often seeing a crate as a doggie prison. And when you think about it, how many hours a day does a puppy sleep? Lots! So puppies are glad of a quiet secure den to get some well needed rest in.


 Adult wolves do not use dens to sleep in. They are dug only for giving birth in and once pups leave the den, they don't go back so that analogy is wrong. Even if it were true, show me any wolf who stays in their den for hours on end despite wanting to be with other pack members, needing the toilet, desperate to stretch their legs and play etc.
Of course you think it is acceptable to keep a dog in a cage, if you didn't you wouldn't do so, but because you do, you h ave to use all the usual cliches about dogs loving them, them being like dens and the like.
If you told me you used one as a bed but the door was never locked, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. The day I start locking my dogs in cages for hours on end because it made life convenient for me, is the day I rehome all my dogs and stick to rats and mice who are happy in cages.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Interesting. You now don't confine her to one small room for hours, you keep the door to that room closed, you let her sleep in the bedroom but the whole success is based on the fact that you have a metal cage erected in your living room for her to sleep in. It's a miracle. Are you sure the change hasn't got something to do with her being less bored and confined, and the fact that with the door closed, she cannot get into the kitchen to jump on the worktops? Or that you stepped up her exersize?
> 
> And are you sure she "fell in love" with a lump of metal?
> There are raised cages in my dog rooms. The doors are never closed, they have no catches on them anyway. The little dogs sleep in them. However I wouldn't say that they were in love with them. They are just places to sleep in that's all, for those who sleep downstairs that is. *I have several in* *and on my bed with me along with several cats and any of the neighbours who come in through the window.*
> Perhaps these crates are a miraculous new method of training? You buy a cage, put it up in the living room, your dog falls in love with it and all behavioural problems cease immediately. Amazing.:flrt:


On a lighter note I just have visions of local neighbouring farmers climbing into your bed after accessing through your open window:lol2::lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> On a lighter note I just have visions of local neighbouring farmers climbing into your bed after accessing through your open window:lol2::lol2:


 hehehehe, nahhhh they are all afraid of me around here. They think I'm a witch. Plus 'big Ursa' terrifies the local farmers. They think he is 'black Shuck'.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Adult wolves do not use dens to sleep in. They are dug only for giving birth in and once pups leave the den, they don't go back so that analogy is wrong. Even if it were true, show me any wolf who stays in their den for hours on end despite wanting to be with other pack members, needing the toilet, desperate to stretch their legs and play etc.
> Of course you think it is acceptable to keep a dog in a cage, if you didn't you wouldn't do so, but because you do, you h ave to use all the usual cliches about dogs loving them, them being like dens and the like.
> If you told me you used one as a bed but the door was never locked, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. The day I start locking my dogs in cages for hours on end because it made life convenient for me, is the day I rehome all my dogs and stick to rats and mice who are happy in cages.


So where do adult wolves sleep? 

Don't puppies sleep for long periods??? All the puppies I have ever known have bursts of energy, followed by long sleeping sessions! So why couldn't these sleeping sessions be in a crate? Maybe you should look into dog's sleeping patterns!

And crates help teach a puppy to hold their bladders longer. 

And yes, I DO think it is ok to put your dog in a crate for periods! Provided the crate is not used as a punishment, & the period of confinement is not too long, the vast majority of dogs are fine with periods of confinement in a crate.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> So where do adult wolves sleep?


anywhere they like above ground.



> Don't puppies sleep for long periods??? All the puppies I have ever known have bursts of energy, followed by long sleeping sessions!


 puppies sleep and play and sleep and play. They do this whenever they like. So what if your dogs play session coincides with when she is shut in a cage?




> So why couldn't these sleeping sessions be in a crate? Maybe you should look into dog's sleeping patterns!


I think I am perfectly aware of how dogs sleep. I do have 18 of them, plus a litter of puppies here at present.



> And crates help teach a puppy to hold their bladders longer.


I've never believed in forcing a pup to hold on before it can do so comfortably. Just like their sleep patterns a pup's system processes food and drink fast. She may well be forced to either soil her bed or hold on but holding on will be painful for her.



> And yes, I DO think it is ok to put your dog in a crate for periods! Provided the crate is not used as a punishment


 what difference does it make to the dog what the reason of confinement is. Do they really think it different if they get locked in a cage for 5 hours for something they did wrong or because it's convenient to you to do so?



> & the period of confinement is not too long,


 what is too long then? For me too long is any length of time which means they cannot exhibit natural behaviours. For me, 4 or 5 hours is too long.



> the vast majority of dogs are fine with periods of confinement in a crate.


 What periods? How many are fine? Unless you have actual research or data to back your statement up or you can quantify what 'periods' means exactly, that statement is nonsense.
You will argue to toss because you don't even want to consider that you are doing something wrong. It makes life easier for you not only to shut her ina cage for the greater part of the day but to salve your consience by telling yourself that she likes to live like that. 
To me, shutting a dog into a cage for 4 or 5 hours, is no less cruel than chaining it up outside on a 3 foot chain for the same length of time. In fact the chain is preferwable because at least it can move about, lay in the sun, feel the wind on it's face, watch treees and birds and toilet when it needs to go. All Lolly can do is sleep because there is nothing else she can do in her metal cage. She can only submit and resign herself to this mistreatment or go quietly nuts from boredom and misery. But still, as long as it means you aren't inconvenienced in any way. Why worry about a puppy trying to hold onto bladder and bowels that should be working several times a day as all puppy's bladders and bowels should. Better her discomfort than a mess on your floor eh?


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> anywhere they like above ground.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Wind your neck in! You do not even know the size of the crate I use, & remember, Lolly is a Chihuahua! :Na_Na_Na_Na: But you jump to conclusions!

And Lolly does not only have the option of sleeping when she is in her crate! She can walk around, drink, & chew her toys.

Trust me, mess on my floor does not bother me in the slightest! I can see a Lolly log right now actually!


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

I have crates in my house, but the doors are always left open, the dogs use them as places to sleep in if they so wish. I personally would never consider shutting a dog in a crate and leaving it unsupervised as there are risks involved. Dogs and puppies can easily get there teeth/mouth/legs stuck in the bars. Also some dogs may get that distressed that they try to escape and can easily collapse a crate on themselves (especially the cheaper crates) if they are persistant enough (I have seen quite a few bull breeds collapse crates on themselves within a few mins of being in one) 
And minutes is all it will take, you could come home to a badly injured animal or worse, a dead one.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I use a large cat carrier type of crate for Lolly. It only has bars on the door.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

fenwoman said:


> Interesting. You now don't confine her to one small room for hours, you keep the door to that room closed, you let her sleep in the bedroom but the whole success is based on the fact that you have a metal cage erected in your living room for her to sleep in. It's a miracle. Are you sure the change hasn't got something to do with her being less bored and confined, and the fact that with the door closed, she cannot get into the kitchen to jump on the worktops? Or that you stepped up her exersize?
> 
> And are you sure she "fell in love" with a lump of metal?
> There are raised cages in my dog rooms. The doors are never closed, they have no catches on them anyway. The little dogs sleep in them. However I wouldn't say that they were in love with them. They are just places to sleep in that's all, for those who sleep downstairs that is. I have several in and on my bed with me along with several cats and any of the neighbours who come in through the window.
> Perhaps these crates are a miraculous new method of training? You buy a cage, put it up in the living room, your dog falls in love with it and all behavioural problems cease immediately. Amazing.:flrt:


*FYI* First of all, my kitchen isn't small, it's hoomungus (as my daughter would say), probably bigger than and no different than your 'dog room' no doubt, where you say you keep several dogs, whereas I just kept one. She does like her crate as she will be in it basically all the time when she is not playing as she doesn't only sleep in there, she observes from there which says to me she actually likes being in it. By taking her away from the kitchen, I was hoping it would make a difference and as she seems to like the crate and didn't want to lock it so soon after introducing it to her, found that she didn't get up to mischief when I was not here, which ultimately leads me to believe it had some play in calming her down a tad. (I would have started locking it if things hadn't turned out so well). 

Secondly, our exercise regime has ALWAYS been the same, she gets plenty of exercise, I take her to the beach EVERY day after cooking tea and and she gets a good run in the fields beyond my garden before I go to work and at lunch time (as I have said before). I love walking the dogs and my pup is soooo focused and loves playing 'oops its dark and didn't see where the ball went in the sand because it's got sand on it and blends in, but I won't give up til I find it' games :lol2: (whereas my golden is like 'oo00oo where is that smell coming from, I am gonna go and investigate and nothing is gonna stop me sniff sniff pee pee sniff sniff lol) As I have also previously said, I have tried to get her into agility classes to give her something more to focus on (or working trials as they are popular around here being surrounded by fields and farmland and pheasants and quail, and she would be great at it) but they say she is too young yet.

I would also like to say that IMO I think it is disgusting having animals in the bed, as I do about allowing cats up on the counters and tables to eat or even just sit. They dig their own shit and then bring all those lovely germs to where you eat and prepare food yummmmmm (yes I have 4 cats and none of them are allowed on the counters or table). My golden rolls in anything that smells disgusting and he's just naturally smelly (always has been and yes I have had his anal glands emptied on a regular basis and yes I have him groomed and bath him - he has just turned 8 and I have spent 8 years trying to find a solution, I think it is time to give up lol) and to think that my bed would smell like that, is enough to make me want to vomit  lol My pup is a relatively clean dog and doesn't smell, so to allow her to sleep in my bedroom was a huge decision which I didn't take lightly. It allows us to bond a lot more before sleep time and it takes her away from a situation where she could potentially cause chaos. (I don't want to start locking her in the crate if I can avoid doing so).

While writing this reply and looking at my baby looking at me (from the crate), I have had a thought (and yes it did hurt, always does). I might just put the effect of the crate to the test and take it away, just to see if it really does make a difference, as you are adamant that it doesn't. After all, you MUST know more about this than me :whistling2:

Once I have done this, maybe for a few days next weekend, I will start a new thread with the results. :2thumb:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Using a crate in moderation to help manage behaviour is far better than having the whole relationship ruined. Dogs left loose and unsupervised are at risk of many things - chewing hazardous things, falling off a worktop etc. I even knew a puppy who suffocated by geting stuck in a welly. 
No matter how patient you are, if you keep coming home to canine carnage, you will inevitably get hacked off. The dog will then not only be stressed because it is alone, it will also be stressed about your return wondering what kind of trouble it is in. A crated dog is safe, feels safe and is always happy to see its owner return, and the feeling is always mutual because there is nothing to be cross about. If a crate is properly introduced, I don't see the problem. Like most training aids, they are open to abuse and must be used with care. 
With regard to housetraining. 
The size of crate is important. With a very young puppy, there must be room for it to move away from the bed area for wees etc. But as it grows a little bigger, that facility removes itself. So when puppy wakes up in the morning when it hears your alarm clock go off, you have more chance of getting up and getting the puppy outside before it evacuates. This is not the same as 'forcing a puppy to hold on for hours'.
Dogs will adjust their sleep patterns to fit in with the lifestyle of the owner with relative ease. Dogs sleep between 13 and 18 hours a day so being confined for a few hours is not really a big deal. Obviously it isn't a solid 13 hour block and this must be taken into account.
I think it is much better to have a calm relaxed dog and owner than to have loads of misunderstandings and conflict. 
On the subject of space, there was some research done into whether dogs behaved differently if they had bigger kennels. The result was no, their behaviour was the same in 8 x 4 as it was in double the size (or something like that - can't remember the exact details).

Anyway a very large breed in an average sized room isn't much different to a very small breed in a large crate.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Evie said:


> Using a crate in moderation to help manage behaviour is far better than having the whole relationship ruined. Dogs left loose and unsupervised are at risk of many things - chewing hazardous things, falling off a worktop etc. I even knew a puppy who suffocated by geting stuck in a welly.
> No matter how patient you are, if you keep coming home to canine carnage, you will inevitably get hacked off. The dog will then not only be stressed because it is alone, it will also be stressed about your return wondering what kind of trouble it is in. A crated dog is safe, feels safe and is always happy to see its owner return, and the feeling is always mutual because there is nothing to be cross about. If a crate is properly introduced, I don't see the problem. Like most training aids, they are open to abuse and must be used with care.
> With regard to housetraining.
> The size of crate is important. With a very young puppy, there must be room for it to move away from the bed area for wees etc. But as it grows a little bigger, that facility removes itself. So when puppy wakes up in the morning when it hears your alarm clock go off, you have more chance of getting up and getting the puppy outside before it evacuates. This is not the same as 'forcing a puppy to hold on for hours'.
> ...


Excellent post and I agree entirely.


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Evie said:


> Using a crate in moderation to help manage behaviour is far better than having the whole relationship ruined. Dogs left loose and unsupervised are at risk of many things - chewing hazardous things, falling off a worktop etc. I even knew a puppy who suffocated by geting stuck in a welly.
> No matter how patient you are, if you keep coming home to canine carnage, you will inevitably get hacked off. The dog will then not only be stressed because it is alone, it will also be stressed about your return wondering what kind of trouble it is in. A crated dog is safe, feels safe and is always happy to see its owner return, and the feeling is always mutual because there is nothing to be cross about. If a crate is properly introduced, I don't see the problem. Like most training aids, they are open to abuse and must be used with care.
> With regard to housetraining.
> The size of crate is important. With a very young puppy, there must be room for it to move away from the bed area for wees etc. But as it grows a little bigger, that facility removes itself. So when puppy wakes up in the morning when it hears your alarm clock go off, you have more chance of getting up and getting the puppy outside before it evacuates. This is not the same as 'forcing a puppy to hold on for hours'.
> ...


And so do I Agree Entirely. Before this whole event/situation/disfunctionality (whatever you want to call it) happened, I was dead set against crates. Just as well I have an open mind and not the type of person to make judgements rightly or wrongly :whistling2:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Evie said:


> Using a crate in moderation to help manage behaviour is far better than having the whole relationship ruined. Dogs left loose and unsupervised are at risk of many things - chewing hazardous things, falling off a worktop etc. I even knew a puppy who suffocated by geting stuck in a welly.
> No matter how patient you are, if you keep coming home to canine carnage, you will inevitably get hacked off. The dog will then not only be stressed because it is alone, it will also be stressed about your return wondering what kind of trouble it is in. A crated dog is safe, feels safe and is always happy to see its owner return, and the feeling is always mutual because there is nothing to be cross about. If a crate is properly introduced, I don't see the problem. Like most training aids, they are open to abuse and must be used with care.
> With regard to housetraining.
> The size of crate is important. With a very young puppy, there must be room for it to move away from the bed area for wees etc. But as it grows a little bigger, that facility removes itself. So when puppy wakes up in the morning when it hears your alarm clock go off, you have more chance of getting up and getting the puppy outside before it evacuates. This is not the same as 'forcing a puppy to hold on for hours'.
> ...


HOORAY! A voice of reason!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> *FYI* First of all, my kitchen isn't small, it's hoomungus (as my daughter would say), probably bigger than and no different than your 'dog room' no doubt, where you say you keep several dogs, whereas I just kept one. She does like her crate as she will be in it basically all the time when she is not playing as she doesn't only sleep in there, she observes from there which says to me she actually likes being in it. By taking her away from the kitchen, I was hoping it would make a difference and as she seems to like the crate and didn't want to lock it so soon after introducing it to her, found that she didn't get up to mischief when I was not here, which ultimately leads me to believe it had some play in calming her down a tad. (I would have started locking it if things hadn't turned out so well).
> 
> Secondly, our exercise regime has ALWAYS been the same, she gets plenty of exercise, I take her to the beach EVERY day after cooking tea and and she gets a good run in the fields beyond my garden before I go to work and at lunch time (as I have said before). I love walking the dogs and my pup is soooo focused and loves playing 'oops its dark and didn't see where the ball went in the sand because it's got sand on it and blends in, but I won't give up til I find it' games :lol2: (whereas my golden is like 'oo00oo where is that smell coming from, I am gonna go and investigate and nothing is gonna stop me sniff sniff pee pee sniff sniff lol) As I have also previously said, I have tried to get her into agility classes to give her something more to focus on (or working trials as they are popular around here being surrounded by fields and farmland and pheasants and quail, and she would be great at it) but they say she is too young yet.
> 
> ...


Hey Breezy, I bet your pup is more than happy about her crate! I am sure that dogs see their crate as their own private den where they can go to get away from the hustle & bustle of a household, from kids who may be tiring it out, & from things that may scare it. I thing crates are a great training aid. You made me chuckle!


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

I am also cruel to Lolly in other ways! Today I took her into work. She met a fellow Mexican Mouse Hound there when a young lady came in the shop with a long coat Chihuahua wearing a dress! Lolly was not impressed by this other bitch in a pink polka dot doggy dress! In the end, she had to hide in Helen's jacket, where the second acount of cruelty occurred. Here, the poor pup had to try to perch on Helen's fried eggs! HAHAHAHA


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Zoo-Man said:


> I am also cruel to Lolly in other ways! Today I took her into work. She met a fellow Mexican Mouse Hound there when a young lady came in the shop with a long coat Chihuahua wearing a dress! Lolly was not impressed by this other bitch in a pink polka dot doggy dress! In the end, she had to hide in Helen's jacket, where the second acount of cruelty occurred. Here, the poor pup had to try to perch on Helen's fried eggs! HAHAHAHA


FRIED EGGS!! FRIED EGGS????!! I was wearing my bleedin' 
wonderbra!:whip: 

<_puffs self up in front of mirror_>


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

:lol2: your only jealous because I'm cruel to puppies! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Helen (Evie) uses dog crates in her car! Ooooh, terrible! :lol2:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

:roll2: Too Funny Mr & Mrs Zoo - As Ronald McDonald would say 'I'm Loving It'! :roll2:


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## Schip (Mar 31, 2007)

Oh my what a time has been had on this one lol.

Crates are fine don't worry about it, I crate train my puppies BEFORE they leave me, show the new owners how to use them and how not to use them, teach their children to leave the puppy when its in the crate with or without the door closed. 

Don't worry about others oppinions on here do what YOU feel is right for YOUR dog if it works and you're both relaxed great, things have settled so why disrupt that just because others on here disagree with what you've done? Relax and enjoy your new calmer dog.


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> :roll2: Too Funny Mr & Mrs Zoo - As Ronald McDonald would say 'I'm Loving It'! :roll2:


Mr & Mrs Zoo?!?!?! HAHA We aren't Mr & Mrs! We are great friends & we work together! HEHE


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Schip said:


> Oh my what a time has been had on this one lol.
> 
> Crates are fine don't worry about it, I crate train my puppies BEFORE they leave me, show the new owners how to use them and how not to use them, teach their children to leave the puppy when its in the crate with or without the door closed.
> 
> Don't worry about others oppinions on here do what YOU feel is right for YOUR dog if it works and you're both relaxed great, things have settled so why disrupt that just because others on here disagree with what you've done? Relax and enjoy your new calmer dog.


Gosh Schip, we are agreeing on something here! Make a record of it, quick! hehe


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Zoo-Man said:


> Mr & Mrs Zoo?!?!?! HAHA We aren't Mr & Mrs! We are great friends & we work together! HEHE


oo00oopppssss :whistling2::whistling2: 

Oh well, I still find your comments extremely comical and entertaining whatever your relationship status is with Evie :whistling2: :whistling2: :lol2:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Breezy_One said:


> oo00oopppssss :whistling2::whistling2:
> 
> Oh well, I still find your comments extremely comical and entertaining whatever your relationship status is with Evie :whistling2: :whistling2: :lol2:


Oh and sensible of course :2thumb: I found your advice helpful thank you :notworthy:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Schip said:


> Oh my what a time has been had on this one lol.
> 
> Crates are fine don't worry about it, I crate train my puppies BEFORE they leave me, show the new owners how to use them and how not to use them, teach their children to leave the puppy when its in the crate with or without the door closed.
> 
> Don't worry about others oppinions on here do what YOU feel is right for YOUR dog if it works and you're both relaxed great, things have settled so why disrupt that just because others on here disagree with what you've done? Relax and enjoy your new calmer dog.


 
 Thank you for your input schips, it is very much appreciated :2thumb:


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Breezy_One said:


> oo00oopppssss :whistling2::whistling2:
> 
> Oh well, I still find your comments extremely comical and entertaining whatever your relationship status is with Evie :whistling2: :whistling2: :lol2:


Relationship?!? He is just my bitch and does as he's told .......... but don't tell him I said so. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## Breezy_One (Jan 12, 2006)

Evie said:


> Relationship?!? He is just my bitch and does as he's told .......... but don't tell him I said so. :Na_Na_Na_Na:


Good Girl! :halo: Your secret is safe with me! :whistling2: lol


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## Zoo-Man (Apr 12, 2008)

Ahem! I will turn a blind eye..............this time!

:lol2:


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