# Tail docking/ear cropping on dogs.



## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

There's been a lot of conflicting information towards this and I've found it very interesting to read about on numerous websites etc. :hmm: But, I'm finding it a bit difficult to understand if it IS illegal and if there are justified reasons for it to be done or not?

I'm especially confused about how apparently working dogs can be tail docked but what specifies them as a working dog? Certain breeds or what? It all seems a bit vague really, anyone want to clear things up for me? :blush:

Any comments such as "OMGGGGG WTF R U DOIN ITS CRUEL AND HORRIBLE" shall be ignored! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

I'd like imput towards both things, the tail docking and the ear cropping 

EDIT: Also, people say there are sometimes medical benefits of doing it, are they spewing sh*t?


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## roddy mac (Dec 10, 2009)

as far as i knew a dog that had a bad enough injury to its tail would have the bad bit docked thats all

i thought but not sure if its still fact that if a pup is born and has proof its going to be a working dog hunting shootin it could be docked but as i say still not 100% sure if thats the case


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

i thought ear docking is illegal here?

working dogs can be docked, they can damage them quite badly while chasing pheasants about through the fences etc.
it has to be done by a vet, my vet did one recently, the breeder had to have a letter from the new owner saying pup was going to be a gundog, and the papaerwork was like a telephone directory.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

From the RSPCA



Regulations for tail docking were debated in both England and Wales as a part of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which came into effect on 28th March in Wales and 6th April in England. Scotland implemented a complete ban on all tail docking which came into force on 30th April 2007.
*Key facts...in England and Wales: *

The docking of dogs’ tails for cosmetic reasons is banned (as is the showing of cosmetically docked dogs who have had their tails docked after the relevant legislation came into force and where members of the public have paid an entrance fee).
There is an exemption for 'working dogs' as defined by the English and Welsh regulations to include those used by the police, armed forces, search and rescue, and gun dogs and dogs used for pest control purposes. (See table below for a list of exempted breeds)
Only a vet can dock the tail of a puppy that is covered by an exemption. He must see the puppy’s mother and must carry out the procedure before the puppy is five days old (although the vet's decision to dock is entirely at his discretion).
If the vet decides to dock the puppy’s tail, he must certify that he has seen specific written evidence that the dog is genuinely likely to work in one of the permitted areas of work.
The owner must also make a declaration that the dog is likely to work. A false declaration is an offence.
The dog must also be permanently identified by a microchip before it is three months old.
It is intended that the certificate of exemption will follow the dog throughout its life.
Vets are permitted to dock a dog's tail for medical reasons at any age.
*Table comparing differences in exemptions in England and Wales 
*
*Type**England**Wales*
NB. No crossbreeds are allowedTerrierAny type or combination of typesJack Russell
Cairn
Norfolk
LakelandSpanielAny type or combination of typesEnglish springer
Welsh springer
CockerHunt-Point RetrieverAny type or combination of typesBraque Italian
Brittany
German long-haired pointer
German wire-haired pointer
German short-haired pointer
Hungarian vizsla
Hungarian wire-haired vizsla
Italian spinone
Spanish water dog
Weimaraner
Korthals griffon
Slovakian rough-haired pointer
Large Munsterlander
Small Munsterlander


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Thanks for the replies!
Apparently the cropped ears can prevent many infections and/or problems with quite a lot of dogs?

Also, what about claw removal? What's this done for?


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

Freakinfreak said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> Apparently the cropped ears can prevent many infections and/or problems with quite a lot of dogs?


It was only ever for fashion and appearance and in some breeds avoidance of a getholdablebodypart in fighting dogs.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

Freakinfreak said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> Apparently the cropped ears can prevent many infections and/or problems with quite a lot of dogs?
> 
> Also, what about claw removal? What's this done for?


 
I can only see the only ear issues would be with dogs with long floppy ears, but cant really imagine a basset with cropped ears.

I cant see any reason for claw removal unless if a claw is damaged.


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## jazzywoo (Sep 24, 2009)

ok i agree with working dogs having tails docked as they do damage them while at work 
ear cropping i dont see any reason to do this at all 
claws my old colllie had her dewclaws removed as she kept catching them and getting infections and nearly ripped one off so that was done when she got spayed 
in general i think if a doggy was born with long tails and floppy ears they should stay that way unless there is a genuine reason to alter them


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

jazzywoo said:


> ok i agree with working dogs having tails docked as they do damage them while at work
> ear cropping i dont see any reason to do this at all
> claws my old colllie had her dewclaws removed as she kept catching them and getting infections and nearly ripped one off so that was done when she got spayed
> in general i think if a doggy was born with long tails and floppy ears they should stay that way unless there is a genuine reason to alter them


What dogs are working dogs? Like, dogs which round up sheep or cattle, guard dogs, the breed?

Hmm, yeah, I'm not sure why else people would remove the claws, it seems quite common in puppies, especially Dobs, Boxers, Rotties and things that I've noticed?


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

The cropping of ears is outlawed in all countries that have agreed to the European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals, including the UK. I cant think of any benefits to ear docking, all I can think of health wise is ear infections in ears that air cannot get into, but none of the docked breeds I can think of have very closed off ears anyway, they all tend to be semi up anyway. It was done on the whole to make dogs look more aggressive for guard work, or keep ears out of the way for fighting.

I wish my retriever had had her claws removed, they grown like talons and have to be cut at least every 3 weeks, one bleeds often as the "live" bit has grown oddly, and do not get worn down in anyway because they do not meet the ground. Then again I believe they can be used to get up muddy banks and stuff so guess better there than not.

The docking law is next to useless, there seems to be little or no control on it. If the dog is a breed still allowed to be docked most often they are docked. For example I would say you would be hard pressed to find a working lines cocker that is not docked, then they are all sold on Pets4homes and Preloved, so obviously are unlikely to ever see a working home. They should have to be presold to a working home before docking was allowed IMO. I have even spoken to someone before a litter was born who refused to NOT dock to go to my pet home as if I returned the puppy she could not resell it as it was full tailed.


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Removal of dew claws is common in puppies. They are small and easily rip when running, esp' over grass etc. Saves them having them removed/stitches later in life.


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## Loderuna (Mar 9, 2010)

Dew claws can be removed - quite often done with larger breeds. It stops them from catching their dew claws on things - including their owners! It can be done by a vet without anaesthetic if a pup is under 7 days of age. Older than 7 days means general anaesthetic.

As far as I know, ear cropping has been illegal here (UK) for a long time.


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## isitreallyme (Jul 15, 2010)

I have a new neighbour who is paying for the cosmetic enhacements (ears & tail) to be done on a doberman before she brings it over to this country - think she said Switzerland (could be wrong) & for the dog & enhancements plus shipping him over here its costing £3,000 :gasp:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

isitreallyme said:


> I have a new neighbour who is paying for the cosmetic enhacements (ears & tail) to be done on a doberman before she brings it over to this country - think she said Switzerland (could be wrong) & for the dog & enhancements plus shipping him over here its costing £3,000 :gasp:


Must be another country Switzerland are listed as signing the European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals in November 1990. 

I think I was wrong earlier, I cant find any evidence the UK have ever signed up to this agreement.


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

one of my rottis has double dew claws,yes double vet said she was a freak of nature:lol2:
she was hesitant to remove them as they are quite tight not floppy like some so didnt think it was a problem!

as far as i know rottweilers only had the docked tail as they were known as 'butchers dogs' they used to pull little carts full of meat and it got in the way. cant see it being a precaution incase of injury narlas tail is thicker than my fore arm its huge!

not a fan of docking or ear cropping,the ears actually look like they were cut with scissors as a pup horrid


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

Personally, I love seeing a dog that would normally have a docked tail with a full one. It looks lovely.


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

pippainnit said:


> Personally, I love seeing a dog that would normally have a docked tail with a full one. It looks lovely.


I agree, in particular I have started seeing a number of poodles with lovely tails held high over their backs. It is really nice to see and have to admit that they are changing my opinions over a breed I have never considered to have any features attractive to me in the past.


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## RhianB87 (Oct 25, 2009)

I had an argument with someone once who said that some breeds look alot better without tails so should always be docked :bash:


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

FallenAngel said:


> I had an argument with someone once who said that some breeds look alot better without tails so should always be docked :bash:


 
some cheeky bugger came into my house and said my dogs look awful with there tails, lets just say he didnt leave with the snake he was meant to be buying


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## clairebear1984 (Dec 13, 2009)

ear cropping has not being allowed til god knows wen and so it shouldnt be sooo cruel. also tail docking not allowed only if for working dog, have show a certificate to say its a or gonna be a working dog etc

but i have seen boxers with a tail and pupy so obviously not working x and so dogs should have tails, they were born with them for gods sake y should we cut bits of as we thing they look better.


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## Rosiemum (Jan 14, 2010)

rach666 said:


> some cheeky bugger came into my house and said my dogs look awful with there tails, lets just say he didnt leave with the snake he was meant to be buying


I've had this, as well. Our 15 year old Jack Russell has his tail (we made a point of buying an undocked puppy), and an old bloke in our village stopped me one day when we were out for a walk for the express purpose of informing me that "they look a lot better without their tails, don't they?"

Let's just say I didn't agree with him.


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## ace33 (Sep 19, 2009)

I agree as far as ear cropping is cruel, full stop.

I own various type of dogs and my home pack atm consists of:

2x St Bernards
1x Patterdale Terrier
1x Collie
1x Boxer
1x Labradoodle pup

The St Bernards had their dewclaw removed as my choice wen they were born and the terrier was docked (longish not a short stub) and had her dew claws removed a standard practice (this was before the ban was in place). This removal is easy on the dog if done early enough and IMO saves them from pain of getting them caught later in life, but if the have them already there is no need to necessarily remove them unless needed.

I do agree with the docking of certain breeds, recently my boxer has had to have her tail amputated at the age of 3 as the end of her tail was constantly splitting open due to the fact it is long and thin with no protection (they have a very close coat). This has been quite traumatic for her and is a semi-major operation (similar to removing a limb) and if she had been docked at a young age wouldn't of had to go through any of this or several month of pain, because the vets have to ensure amputation i the last attempt.

I also agree that docking some dogs are unnecessary, rotties, gsd (yes the police dock some of them), pet spaniels, etc. But all these dogs have adequate protection on the tips of their tail.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

ace33 said:


> I agree as far as ear cropping is cruel, full stop.
> 
> I own various type of dogs and my home pack atm consists of:
> 
> ...


Thanks for that, and everyone else's opinions, thank you!

I have recently been looking at puppies for sale online, I'm not buying but I was interested. I looked mainly at dobes, rotties, great danes and boxers, most of which stated they were declawed or docked, then someone mentioned the ear cropping and the difference between the dogs was amazing.

For instance... Dobe with natural ears and tail:










Dobe with cropped ears and docked tail:










I think if I were to get a dog with a thin tail, i.e, dobe, boxer, whippet, greyhound etc I would probably ask for it to be docked at birth as if done properly the pain is next to done. Whereas if the dog needed to get it removed at a later date in it's life it would become excruciatingly painful. Apparently...

Thoughts?


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

Freakinfreak said:


> Thanks for that, and everyone else's opinions, thank you!
> 
> I have recently been looking at puppies for sale online, I'm not buying but I was interested. I looked mainly at dobes, rotties, great danes and boxers, most of which stated they were declawed or docked, then someone mentioned the ear cropping and the difference between the dogs was amazing.
> 
> ...


 

oh god i think that looks awful doesnt it,its the ears they just look like they have been hacked at ,i hate the fact yanks do it to danes to looks horrid


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

rach666 said:


> oh god i think that looks awful doesnt it,its the ears they just look like they have been hacked at ,i hate the fact yanks do it to danes to looks horrid


The ears are very odd looking but I have to say that when I saw an untouched dobe next to a cropped and docked dobe the untouched dobe looked completely different but I don't know if it was in a bad way!


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

For a dog to be docked for workig purposes, I do believe the breeder has to own a valid firearms, or shotgun certificate, and anyone that buys a docked breed puppie has to fill in a form proving he is going to use it for working  both my JR's are docked


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

bosshogg said:


> For a dog to be docked for workig purposes, I do believe the breeder has to own a valid firearms, or shotgun certificate, and anyone that buys a docked breed puppie has to fill in a form proving he is going to use it for working  both my JR's are docked


Do they work?


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Freakinfreak said:


> Do they work?


Yes both work


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

bosshogg said:


> Yes both work


What do they class as working though? That's what confused me!


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## bosshogg (Nov 19, 2006)

Freakinfreak said:


> What do they class as working though? That's what confused me!


Working terriers- hunt and kill vermin

Working spaniels/retrievers - Hunt and retrieve game 

Working Pointers- hunt and point game mainly on grouse moor


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## mandi1234 (Mar 13, 2009)

Uploaded with ImageShack.usthis is my boy with tail and ears, i got told the only way you can have a tail docked is for medical reasons, ie if the dog is chewing his tail and making it sore


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## mandi1234 (Mar 13, 2009)

wow :lol2::lol2:that came out a bit large hahaha


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

mandi1234 said:


> wow :lol2::lol2:that came out a bit large hahaha


Huge! But lovely dog!!  thank you very much!


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Freakinfreak said:


> I think if I were to get a dog with a thin tail, i.e, dobe, boxer, whippet, greyhound etc I would probably ask for it to be docked at birth as if done properly the pain is next to done. Whereas if the dog needed to get it removed at a later date in it's life it would become excruciatingly painful. Apparently...
> 
> Thoughts?


Whippets and Greyhounds have never been docked as a rule and you would be unable to get any of the dogs you have listed docked in the UK at all. Those listed would likely be brought in from Ireland. No responsible breeder would allow that start for their pups. The likelihood that you will get a fit healthy dog that has been shipped in from Ireland (a large amount of puppy farms are based there) or a fit healthy dog from a breeder willing to ship a poor pregnant bitch to Ireland to give birth then ship the poor pups back just so they can come back without tails would be very very low IMO. In fact I would say you would be insane to buy a dog like this.

A vet spoke about this once (I cannot recall his nationality) and said that in the 10 years since docking was completely banned in his country he had seen 3 split tails needing amputation, 2 of which were breeds that where never docked. So In 10 years he saw one single case of any amputated tail in a dog that before the ban would have been docked! That is very rare and not worth docking any dogs to prevent an incidence so unlikely to occur.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Kare said:


> Whippets and Greyhounds have never been docked as a rule and you would be unable to get any of the dogs you have listed docked in the UK at all. Those listed would likely be brought in from Ireland. No responsible breeder would allow that start for their pups. The likelihood that you will get a fit healthy dog that has been shipped in from Ireland (a large amount of puppy farms are based there) or a fit healthy dog from a breeder willing to ship a poor pregnant bitch to Ireland to give birth then ship the poor pups back just so they can come back without tails would be very very low IMO. In fact I would say you would be insane to buy a dog like this.
> 
> A vet spoke about this once (I cannot recall his nationality) and said that in the 10 years since docking was completely banned in his country he had seen 3 split tails needing amputation, 2 of which were breeds that where never docked. So In 10 years he saw one single case of any amputated tail in a dog that before the ban would have been docked! That is very rare and not worth docking any dogs to prevent an incidence so unlikely to occur.


 


I agree, its a bit like having your babies fingers cut off just in case they trap them in a door in later life


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> I agree, its a bit like having your babies fingers cut off just in case they trap them in a door in later life


This did make me laugh actually, yeah I see where you're coming from and I didn't make that claim either by the way!

I'm just being a bit of an idiot really as the first time I saw a doberman with cropped ears and docked tail I thought they were naturally like that so then when I saw an actual natural dobe I thought it was a cross or a completely different breed! :blush:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> This did make me laugh actually, yeah I see where you're coming from and I didn't make that claim either by the way!
> 
> I'm just being a bit of an idiot really as the first time I saw a doberman with cropped ears and docked tail I thought they were naturally like that so then when I saw an actual natural dobe I thought it was a cross or a completely different breed! :blush:


 
:lol2: When people see my rottie they ask what kind of mastiff he is and when I say hes a rottie they jump away as if the daft dog has bitten them


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

Shell195 said:


> :lol2: When people see my rottie they ask what kind of mastiff he is and when I say hes a rottie they jump away as if the daft dog has bitten them


Haha! Ooooh dear, don't lose patience with us idiots though please :flrt:
I think that's why I have a preference for how they look cropped and docked as that's how I first saw them so seeing them uncropped and undocked just looked wrong! :|


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Freakinfreak said:


> Thanks for that, and everyone else's opinions, thank you!
> 
> I have recently been looking at puppies for sale online, I'm not buying but I was interested. I looked mainly at dobes, rotties, great danes and boxers, most of which stated they were declawed or docked, then someone mentioned the ear cropping and the difference between the dogs was amazing.
> 
> ...


You know when I was a kid you never saw dogs like that with full ears and tails, I still think they look odd with ears and tails but it's not looks that count its whats best for the dogs at the end of the day.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Freakinfreak said:


> Haha! Ooooh dear, don't lose patience with us idiots though please :flrt:
> I think that's why I have a preference for how they look cropped and docked as that's how I first saw them so seeing them uncropped and undocked just looked wrong! :|


 

My rottie is the daftest dog ever and doesnt have a bad bone in his body, hes a big cuddlebum but people dont stay around long enough to find out 
I think docking their tails makes them look aggressive:bash:


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

rum&coke said:


> You know when I was a kid you never saw dogs like that with full ears and tails, I still think they look odd with ears and tails but it's not looks that count its whats best for the dogs at the end of the day.


Yeah, true and I don't disagree with that it's just that seeing something for the first time and then seeing it differently the second time normally the preference is for the first.



Shell195 said:


> My rottie is the daftest dog ever and doesnt have a bad bone in his body, hes a big cuddlebum but people dont stay around long enough to find out
> I think docking their tails makes them look aggressive:bash:


I don't think any dogs look agressive to be honest with you so I guess it's just down to how people perceieve stuff! I love rotties!


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

I know this is probably silly, but I do have a tinge of sadness when I see a docked dog trying to wag its stump... just looks a bit pitiful to me really. Like it should be wagging fully from side to side but inside it's just kind of... trying to.


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## Freakinfreak (May 13, 2009)

pippainnit said:


> I know this is probably silly, but I do have a tinge of sadness when I see a docked dog trying to wag its stump... just looks a bit pitiful to me really. Like it should be wagging fully from side to side but inside it's just kind of... trying to.


Awww! Aww, yeah I do know what you mean. It looks a bit pitiful really! :lol2:

I suppose it's for the best sometimes though, definately  especially when they're working dogs and have a high chance of breaking their tail or something!


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Freakinfreak said:


> Awww! Aww, yeah I do know what you mean. It looks a bit pitiful really! :lol2:
> 
> I suppose it's for the best sometimes though, definately  especially when they're working dogs and have a high chance of breaking their tail or something!


As mentioned above, that is bollocks. 

There is no such thing as a High chance of breaking a tail (or even splitting it which is what you actually mean I believe) The tail doesn't break, it is just like the spine. Even in a serious injury it is more likely dislocated. What it is claimed happens and the reason to dock is for the tail to hit things and the skin at the end break or split, which is hard to recover as the tail doesn't stop wagging over the weeks/months after and the broken skin repeatedly breaks and the tail is hard to bandage.

Like I said before ask any vet and they will be unlikely to have seen more than a handful of split tails.

Also Labs and other retrievers work the same land as weimeraners and spaniels, they have similar tails and yet it is claimed a spaniel needs docking and will split a tail and a retriever will not?! The real story dates much more back to Tax exemptions on working dogs that were docked. This stopped in 1790 or something, but docking carried on.

How old are you by the way as you keep saying the first dobe you saw was docked and ear chopped, you sound very young from your post so I have to ask where you saw it? I am 32 and although I don't know when it was made illegal in the UK but I can't recall seeing one done in my time, ear cropping has been illegal for a really long time.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Kare said:


> As mentioned above, that is bollocks.
> 
> There is no such thing as a High chance of breaking a tail (or even splitting it which is what you actually mean I believe) The tail doesn't break, it is just like the spine. Even in a serious injury it is more likely dislocated. What it is claimed happens and the reason to dock is for the tail to hit things and the skin at the end break or split, which is hard to recover as the tail doesn't stop wagging over the weeks/months after and the broken skin repeatedly breaks and the tail is hard to bandage.
> 
> ...


 

Im 51 and Ive never seen a dog in the UK with cropped ears


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## purpleskyes (Oct 15, 2007)

I have seen quite a few dogs with cropped ears and tails but they have been imported to the country looking like that I feel quite sorry for them as their ears and tails are the main tools used to communicate with each other.


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## mrandmrsk (Nov 28, 2009)

we remove all dew claws at 3 days old 

we have seen a dog stap her own eye using her dew claw while having a itch

we have also seen someones shoulder ripped open as a result of a st bernard jumping up them - i mean a big rip!

have you seen a st bernard with double dew claws??? they are huge and very dangerous to the dog and all around it, 

if done at 3 days old its forgotten and within a couple mins they are back sleeping

if they catch it at 6 months old they maywell loose loads of blood - damage a person or another dog in the progress and have to be knocked out and surgery to fix it and the vet would likely remove the others then anyway- not good!!! 

i dont enjoy having dew claws removed- infact i hate it but having seen what a st bernard with dew claws can do i always remove all of mine

each to there own- not every vet will do it either

cheri


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## naja-naja (Aug 26, 2009)

i kno that we have fox terriers and we had the puppies dew claws removed (only 2 puppies had them) as these are likley to ingrow back into the leg and they are 'extra' anyway.


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## rach666 (Dec 12, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> I agree, its a bit like having your babies fingers cut off just in case they trap them in a door in later life


This is my argument against it



Shell195 said:


> :lol2: When people see my rottie they ask what kind of mastiff he is and when I say hes a rottie they jump away as if the daft dog has bitten them


i get this alot too its so sad 



Shell195 said:


> My rottie is the daftest dog ever and doesnt have a bad bone in his body, hes a big cuddlebum but people dont stay around long enough to find out
> I think docking their tails makes them look aggressive:bash:


you cant read them as well either they look so much better with tails:flrt:


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## Kare (Mar 9, 2010)

Definately, rotties need tails. I came so close to getting one before I decided to bite the bullet on the Hovawart, I never would have considered one before the docking ban as I can't recall seeing one undocked before then. 

Of course it isnt just about looks, I loved the undocked ones I fostered for who they were, their great character as a breed....but hated their amputations.


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