# Death, myths and correct heating protocols for Crested geckos.



## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

As most owners of any _Rhacodactylus_ species will undoubtedly be aware, “room temperature” is “ideal” for species within this genus. Of course, this is suitably vague, but “room temperature” can be further refined as being between 70-80°f (21-27°C). This temperature is generally easy to maintain, and in most cases, does not require the use of any additional heat sources. While it is clear that this heating routine is relatively successful (in so far as there are large numbers of _Rhacodactylus_ geckos kept and bred in the UK annually), I am not fully convinced as to its suitability for the sustained health, and performance of these animals.

Thermoregulation, as you will all likely be aware, is the act of maintaining body temperature within given thermal limits in order for normal bodily processes to take place at optimal (or near optimal) efficiency. The key to successful thermoregulation then, relies on being able to heat and cool the body, according to predefined requirements, using available temperature gradients within the environment. This therefore means that unless your tank is set at the thermal optimal for your species (or indeed specific individual), then you must provide a thermal gradient, and allow the animal to thermoregulate independently. Failure to do this, will likely result in sub-optimal performance, which generally manifests itself as lower than expected appetite, reduced growth rate, impaired digestive ability and other similar symptoms.

Further to this, it has been conclusively demonstrated that other nocturnal gecko species thermoregulate diurnally (Autumn & De Nardo, 1995 – Behavioural thermoregulation increases growth rate in a nocturnal lizard) and so maintaining them at temperature, which mimic their active period (i.e. the night time), is probably inappropriate. OK, so if we accept that maintaining the enclosure at a single temperature is not ideal physiologically for these species, then delimiting a suitable temperature gradient for these species becomes *very important*.

Many of you will likely be aware of the suggestion that temperatures above 82-83°f (28°C) will induce stress, and possibly cause overheating and death for _Rhacodactylus_ geckos (particularly mentioned for _R. cilliatus_, although this may simply be due to the numbers of this species kept compared to the other species in the genus). Given the ability of cold-blooded animals to cope with sub-optimal temperatures (both above and below optimal), I find it difficult to believe that a difference in temperature of less than 5°f (2°C) could potentially cause such problems to a species. For this reason I tested experimentally preferred temperature (Tp) in Crested geckos (R. cillatus) over a gradient ranging from 90°f (32°C) to 70°f (21°C) for 26 non-full sibling individuals. Somewhat surprisingly, given the claim of high fatality rate over temperatures of 80°f (27°C),* Tp for this species was 86°f (30°C)*, and higher temperature was tolerated without issue.

With this in mind, I decided that testing growth rate between individuals which were maintained at the generally recommended “room temperature” (in this case, a constant temperature of 75°f or 24°C), and individuals maintained with a diurnal temperature gradient ranging from their Tp of 86°f (30°C) to 70°f (21°C), and a nocturnal temperature of 70°f (21°C). Fifty two (52) hatchlings (with no genetic bias) were divided into the two test categories, and growth rate, along with volume of food eaten was recorded. All other environmental parameters were kept constant, UVb light (5%) was provided, and the food source was exclusively black crickets, appropriately gut-loaded and supplemented at every feed with Nutrobal.

*Figure 1*: Mean body mass over time in captive _R. ciliatus_ raised from hatching under two separate thermal conditions. Circles represent mean body mass of geckos allowed to thermoregulate at diurnal temperatures. Squares represent mean body mass of those maintained at constant nocturnal temperatures. Bars represent standard error.

The results were pretty conclusive, and show that geckos maintained at a constant ‘room’ temperature (75˚f), grew at a rate of 0.047g/day, while geckos allowed to thermoregulate independently grew at a rate of 0.058g/day. The difference in growth rate is statistically significant (P = 0.002), suggesting that there is a real improvement in performance (measured here as growth rate) in the animals allowed to thermoregulate independently, compared to those maintained at a sub-optimal single temperature. The number of prey items consumed per individual was higher in the thermoregulating group, and because volume of prey consumed could be linked to mass of the animal, when we controlled for body mass, prey consumption showed no significant effect of treatment.

*So what do these experiments show, and how could they influence the way you maintain your Rhacodactylus species?*

Well, perhaps the most important finding, is that you *must* provide a thermal gradient for your animals. A single temperature maintained across the entire enclosure is inappropriate for any cold-blooded species, and maybe significantly affecting the performance (in this case, the ability of you animal to function at optimal capacity) of your animal. I am fully aware that the suggested ‘risk’ of overheating may not be fully removed by this experiment (although the evidence is very clear that the risk is unfounded), and so I am *not* suggesting that everyone simply increase their enclosure temperatures if they do not feel safe doing so. However, these finding should remove some of the worry over potential overheating with summer just around the corner. However, to clarify, raising the temperature across the whole enclosure is *not* ideal, as this also will not allow correct thermoregulation to take place.


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

A very well written and interesting read but as my thermometers state my enclosure gets to around 18-20 at night and about 23-25 at day which seems to be fine but i will create a thermal gradient


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

I'm not sure I understand, seems to be fine for what?

Do you have a heat source creating a thermal gradient in the tank, or is the tank heated by the ambient room temperature? Without comparing both, how can you know which performs better, or if the animal is experienced sub-optimal conditions?

Thanks for the reply,

Andy

Ah, just seen your edit. I'd be interested to know if you see any difference.


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## Jozza85 (Feb 28, 2011)

very good read, well written and something to consider!


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

i have no heat source at the moment and the animal in question eats the cgd fine but i will test out a heat gradient as i have a spare pulse thermostat should i use a ceramic or heat bulb if i am going to test this out?


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## quizicalkat (Jul 7, 2007)

A very interesting article - thanks!

A few questions though...

Can I ask what heat source/enclosure was used in this research as there has been a lot of debate on here about mat vrs lamp.

Would I be right in assuming, from these findings, that, in actual fact, the 'typical' crestie set up of a 45x45x60 exo is incorrect as it would be difficult to provide a thermo gradient?

Also, is faster growth considered a better way to grow? There is a lot of evidence that shows in other species (including humans) that growing fast is actually detrimental to low term health...?

Can I just ask too why you chose to feed a diet of just black crickets to them when the collective belief is that they live on fruit with the odd insect?

Thanks

Kat


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

So I just noticed your edit... I was clearly too eager to reply. Choice of heat source is entirely up to you, and both will have their merits. If you are currently happy with your current lighting regime, and your tank layout allows it, I would suggest going with the ceramic (obviously take the required precautions to avoid the risk of burns etc..).

Andy


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

GlasgowGecko said:


> So I just noticed your edit... I was clearly too eager to reply. Choice of heat source is entirely up to you, and both will have their merits. If you are currently happy with your current lighting regime, and your tank layout allows it, I would suggest going with the ceramic (obviously take the required precautions to avoid the risk of burns etc..).
> 
> Andy


 yes i will but an interesting point was made what tanks were used and which sources as i too have an exo terra and can imaging since it as an arboreal one that a thermo-gradient will not be as easy?


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

oh and is the reason they ate more because they had a choice of temperature in which to digest so could digest faster and thus grow quicker and another question do they deficate more with a thermo-gradient. you may not have the answer to this but i would find this interesting


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

Awesome right up, very to the point, and aids a belief of my own, Basking points are important, and should be used, even a gradient with only a few Celsius difference can make all the difference in behaviour and growth rate.

Spot on buddy.

:2thumb:

Just out of curiosity, was humidity uniform?


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

quizicalkat said:


> A very interesting article - thanks!
> 
> A few questions though...
> 
> ...


Hi Kat, thanks for the response. I will endeavor to answer as fully as possible.

For the Tp experiment, heat cable was used, in a "specially designed" (perhaps this is too grandiose way of saying it purpose built) horizontally oriented chamber. However for the growth experiments, normal vertically oriented tanks with ceramic heat bulbs were used (the temperature gradient was therefore vertical, and not horizontal). I think this is quite important, as mats do not create ambient temperature, and so cannot create a gradient (but more a hot, and then not hot choice).

Appropriate growth rate? It's a very good question, and I guess it is possible to speculate reasons why this could be positive and negative. It is however a typically used character for this type of experiment, and I would suggest it makes some evolutionary sense as that increased growth rate infers a fitness advantage.

Your final point is also interesting, I have seen no conclusive evidence that these fruit makes up a significant proportion of the diet of any of these species in the 'wild', it seems this bias is imposed in captivity. I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary though!

Kind regards,

Andy


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

A very interesting read the only way to ascertain if this indeed is beneficial to this species would be to see which method produces a) the most offspring and b) the longest lived cresteds on average faster growth is not always a good thing and could lead to shorter lifespans and increased risk of health problems 

Theres no way of knowing i think this is just one part of a larger study of rhacs :2thumb:


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

MP reptiles said:


> oh and is the reason they ate more because they had a choice of temperature in which to digest so could digest faster and thus grow quicker and another question do they deficate more with a thermo-gradient. you may not have the answer to this but i would find this interesting


Yes the group that was allowed to thermoregulate independently ate more, however when body mass was controlled for statistically, the treatment (thermoregulation, or constant) had no effect on consumption. So, larger gecko, the more it will consume.



Krispy1984 said:


> Awesome right up, very to the point, and aids a belief of my own, Basking points are important, and should be used, even a gradient with only a few Celsius difference can make all the difference in behaviour and growth rate.
> 
> Spot on buddy.
> 
> ...


Humidity was maintained _ad hoc_ based on the general rule that: The substrate should not be water logged, and standing water should not be present from previous misting when you mist again. In general it meant misting 2-3 times daily, with clear temporal variation in humidity depending on when it was last misted.

Andy


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

Very well written article there Andy, I have been meaning to convert all my tanks to have a thermal gradient and UV source in time.

A note about the exo terra and creating a thermal gradient, I have my palm gecko in a 45x45x60, with a heat source set to give a max temperature of 95f in the top left hand side, and giver a good thermal gradient down to about 70f-75f at floor level. So this thermal gradient can be achieved. Also my carpet chameleon in a 45x45x45 has UV and a heat source, which produce a warm area of around 85f and again a cool area of between 70f-75f can be found.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> A very interesting read the only way to ascertain if this indeed is beneficial to this species would be to see which method produces a) the most offspring and b) the longest lived cresteds on average faster growth is not always a good thing and could lead to shorter lifespans and increased risk of health problems
> 
> Theres no way of knowing i think this is just one part of a larger study of rhacs :2thumb:


I think you raise an interesting point. While the growth rate was indeed faster in the group allowed to thermoregulate independently, it is perhaps incorrect to think this growth rate represents _inappropriately_ fast growth which could negatively impact long-term fitness characters. It is more likely, in my opinion at least, that the constant temperature treatment is causing inappropriately slow growth. A character which is similarly detrimental to long term health.

Andy


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think you raise an interesting point. While the growth rate was indeed faster in the group allowed to thermoregulate independently, it is perhaps incorrect to think this growth rate represents _inappropriately_ fast growth which could negatively impact long-term fitness characters. It is more likely, in my opinion at least, that the constant temperature treatment is causing inappropriately slow growth. A character which is similarly detrimental to long term health.
> 
> Andy


Another question, did the two groups show any differences once adults? Or did one group just get there faster than the other?


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

_Ben_ said:


> Another question, did the two groups show any differences once adults? Or did one group just get there faster than the other?


Differences in what respect mate? The experiment for each animal ceased after their 5 month trial, and so experimental conditions were not maintained after this point. Unfortunately long term fitness trials are difficult to fund and maintain...

'Adulthood' or sexual maturity *can* be affected by body mass and growth rate, so it is reasonable to think that there may be some decrease in the time it takes to reach sexual maturity. However, it is likely that individuals of _R. cilliatus_ reach this at around the 7-9 month mark (irrespective of sex), 'we' then impose weight restrictions on breeding for the long term health of the animal, not because it is not capable of reproducing (and this is of course a *good* thing).

Andy


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> I think you raise an interesting point. While the growth rate was indeed faster in the group allowed to thermoregulate independently, it is perhaps incorrect to think this growth rate represents _inappropriately_ fast growth which could negatively impact long-term fitness characters. It is more likely, in my opinion at least, that the constant temperature treatment is causing inappropriately slow growth. A character which is similarly detrimental to long term health.
> 
> Andy


Oh i deffinetly agree with you it is more than likely detrimental slow growth as opposed to the thermo gradients faster growth being detrimental to there health id say all lizards need a way of thermoregulating there bodies are hardwired to do so. 

if that makes any sense whatsoever im not so sure i know what im trying to say lol


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

ShaneLuvsMonitors said:


> Oh i deffinetly agree with you it is more than likely detrimental slow growth as opposed to the thermo gradients faster growth being detrimental to there health id say all lizards need a way of thermoregulating there bodies are hardwired to do so its just temperature fiddling after that.


This is exactly what I hope the take home message will be Shane, providing a thermal gradient (somewhat irrespective of the range) is *essential* for reptiles to properly maintain their body temperature within its optimal range. Failure to do this, can and will have negative impacts on a range of physiological and behavioral traits, and may negatively impact the overall health of the animal.

Cheers again for the input.

Andy


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## MP reptiles (Dec 30, 2010)

I dont know why but this thtreadhas got my mind buzzing lol


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

GlasgowGecko said:


> This is exactly what I hope the take home message will be Shane, providing a thermal gradient (somewhat irrespective of the range) is *essential* for reptiles to properly maintain their body temperature within its optimal range. Failure to do this, can and will have negative impacts on a range of physiological and behavioral traits, and may negatively impact the overall health of the animal.
> 
> Cheers again for the input.
> 
> Andy


I dont suppose you know of any similar studies on tuataras? itd be quite interesting to find out there preferences. 

Cheers Shane.


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## _Ben_ (Feb 27, 2010)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Differences in what respect mate? The experiment for each animal ceased after their 5 month trial, and so experimental conditions were not maintained after this point. Unfortunately long term fitness trials are difficult to fund and maintain...
> 
> 'Adulthood' or sexual maturity *can* be affected by body mass and growth rate, so it is reasonable to think that there may be some decrease in the time it takes to reach sexual maturity. However, it is likely that individuals of _R. cilliatus_ reach this at around the 7-9 month mark (irrespective of sex), 'we' then impose weight restrictions on breeding for the long term health of the animal, not because it is not capable of reproducing (and this is of course a *good* thing).
> 
> Andy


I was thinking of difference along the lines of final size, build etc. And I wasnt thinking along the lines of "can the breed sooner" more did they attain adult size sooner and then stop, or did both groups continue to grow until the same point with one group having a higher end weight/size than the other. But as you say, long term trials would have been difficult to maintain. Was more just out of curiosity than anything else.


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## ShaneLuvsMonitors (Sep 27, 2008)

_Ben_ said:


> I was thinking of difference along the lines of final size, build etc. And I wasnt thinking along the lines of "can the breed sooner" more did they attain adult size sooner and then stop, or did both groups continue to grow until the same point with one group having a higher end weight/size than the other. But as you say, long term trials would have been difficult to maintain. Was more just out of curiosity than anything else.


Im just guessing here but the group with constant temperatures might be stunted slightly compared with the Thermo group due to being able to get the most out of there juvenile growing stages thered be no way of knowing without continuing the study right through to adulthood.


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

In the wild they will eat fruits and plant/flower nectar, and will really only go for live items when met by a potential meal at such a site. Such staples would have a big impact on the natural PH of the geckos systems, over protein, Vit's A C(?) and E could have detrimental effects.

Your the first to say otherwise tbh, and I would be interested in the over all life time health of the individuals.

Are all your R. Ciliatus stock fed this way?


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

_Ben_ said:


> I was thinking of difference along the lines of final size, build etc. And I wasnt thinking along the lines of "can the breed sooner" more did they attain adult size sooner and then stop, or did both groups continue to grow until the same point with one group having a higher end weight/size than the other. But as you say, long term trials would have been difficult to maintain. Was more just out of curiosity than anything else.


Ah OK, well as you know, final body size (and there are various different definitions of this) is not determined by environmental factors alone. That said, because I endeavored to remove genetic bias (by using non-full sibs), it would be possible to test for this type of interaction. However, for various reasons, all adults and juveniles used in the experiments were rehomed after completion... so in short, I can't really answer that question.

Defining 'adult' size is an interesting challenge in itself though...

Andy


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## Sweetcorn (Aug 2, 2008)

Krispy1984 said:


> In the wild they will eat fruits and plant/flower nectar, and will really only go for live items when met by a potential meal at such a site. Such staples would have a big impact on the natural PH of the geckos systems, over protein, Vit's A C(?) and E could have detrimental effects.
> 
> Your the first to say otherwise tbh, and I would be interested in the over all life time health of the individuals.
> 
> Are all your R. Ciliatus stock fed this way?


This is what I've always read too. That faecal samples were taken from the wild and that they contained mainly fruit.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Krispy1984 said:


> In the wild they will eat fruits and plant/flower nectar, and will really only go for live items when met by a potential meal at such a site. Such staples would have a big impact on the natural PH of the geckos systems, over protein, Vit's A C(?) and E could have detrimental effects.
> 
> Your the first to say otherwise tbh, and I would be interested in the over all life time health of the individuals.
> 
> Are all your R. Ciliatus stock fed this way?


Interesting, but where is the evidence for this? I have no doubt that they will eat fruit and nectar (of course they do!), but the suggestion that this forms the largest proportion of their diet seems completely unfounded. It is certain that fruit production in their natural environment is seasonally limited, thus it would be unlikely that this could form a year round diet if it were the case anyway...

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest this, and the fragments of evidence for any dietary regime that exist, are pretty unreliable due to the way in which they were obtained. That said, insects are constantly found in feces from these species.
Andy


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

Sweetcorn said:


> This is what I've always read too. That faecal samples were taken from the wild and that they contained mainly fruit.



Solid high five. lol

I do think however that the live items in this experiment did provide a much better control for the thermal tests, but would be very interested in the long term effects of such a diet. CGD would have been a lot harder to regulate.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Krispy1984 said:


> Solid high five. lol
> 
> I do think however that the live items in this experiment did provide a much better control for the thermal tests, but would be very interested in the long term effects of such a diet. CGD would have been a lot harder to regulate.


So my sample size for this is much lower unfortunately, as I am not an advocate of this type of diet for many reasons. In reality, it is as easy to measure volume consumed for CGD, as you can weigh it in, and out of the tank.

In general, individuals maintained on this diet (in both categories) grew at much reduced rates to those maintained on insect prey, and this is likely because volume consumed was lower. The same relationship between thermoregulation and growth rate was seen however.

Interestingly, whether or not we agree on the chosen diet, the growth rate is linked to the ability to thermoregulate, which is really the important bit!

Enjoying the debate though!

Andy


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Interesting, but where is the evidence for this? I have no doubt that they will eat fruit and nectar (of course they do!), but the suggestion that this forms the largest proportion of their diet seems completely unfounded. It is certain that fruit production in their natural environment is seasonally limited, thus it would be unlikely that this could form a year round diet if it were the case anyway...
> 
> As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest this, and the fragments of evidence for any dietary regime that exist, are pretty unreliable due to the way in which they were obtained. That said, insects are constantly found in feces from these species.
> Andy


There is by far more information to support that these do, than they do not.The first captive faecal samples taken showed that 60% of there diets was high fibre from fruits. 

You seem to over look this so I'll ask again as I would like to know.
Are all your R. Ciliatus stock fed this way?


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Ah I did miss this question, my own animals were fed a mixture of insects and fruit puree, but with a bias towards the former.

Sadly, I think what we consider as evidence probably varies. There is no clear evidence (and by this of course I mean sampled appropriately across the range, with an appropriate temporal strategy). Not to mention the fact that the amount of data available is very, VERY low indeed. It would appear to me, although other might disagree, that this suggestion has gained weight in the 'hobbyist' literature as a way to increase the appeal of commercial diets... Controversial perhaps, but I would say likely.

As I say, this pattern is echoed when CGD is used as a feeding method (although the results are not shown because the sample sizes are smaller - and sample size is pretty important in my eyes, despite the fact it could currently be accepted for publication), and so diet should perhaps not detract from the conclusion that independent thermoregulation is very important.

Andy


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

A very good article, and im glad finally somone has done it. I hate being told that rach species kept over a certain temp die. When i know many keepers like myself that keep rach species with a basking spot of 30 celcious

Just a few stats questions here. Feel free to PM these answers if you dont want to clog up the thread.

You state the p valvue as .002 however you do not state which test you have used, nor any parametric assumption. I would be interested in know the test used, the parametric assumptions tested etc as to why said test was relevent.

In addition did you by any chance calculate the power of the test? 

Finally what what was the sample size?

thanks, and sorry for all the stats questions
Jay


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Spikebrit said:


> A very good article, and im glad finally somone has done it. I hate being told that rach species kept over a certain temp die. When i know many keepers like myself that keep rach species with a basking spot of 30 celcious
> 
> Just a few stats questions here. Feel free to PM these answers if you dont want to clog up the thread.
> 
> ...


Hi Jay,

Sufficed to say this is version of the results is dumbed down (not because people won't understand, but simply to focus on the point of required thermal gradients), and because of this much of the scientific detail has been removed. Hopefully, if I ever get round to it, I will write it up for peer-review (although, it is of little interest to the scientific community in general I suspect. This experiment was demonstrated on Leopard geckos nearly 20 years ago).

To answer:

Sample sizes, (I thought I mentioned this... not sure) n=26. All I could actually manage without potentially introducing bias due to lineage.

As for the statistics, I used a multivariate repeated measures analysis of variance (ANOVA) because it accounts for non-independence among repeated measures among individuals over time. (For the prey consumption, I used ANCOVA). The power was .95 (5% chance of missing the effect, although I suspect it would be significant at .99 also.

Andy


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

After you replied to me on my thread asking about ideal temperature ranges for certain species I decided to offer a thermal gradient for my cresties. It ranges from 90*f - 75*f and I have noticed an increase in activity and appetite.

Thanks again for the sound advice

All the best

Tom


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Tombo46 said:


> After you replied to me on my thread asking about ideal temperature ranges for certain species I decided to offer a thermal gradient for my cresties. It ranges from 90*f - 75*f and I have noticed an increase in activity and appetite.
> 
> Thanks again for the sound advice
> 
> ...


Cheers Tom,

Like I say, I am *not* expecting everyone to suddenly accept this and raise their temperatures accordingly. What I am hoping for, is that people will realize that a gradient is essential for all reptiles, and _Rhacodactylus_ species are no exception. 

Andy


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## Tombo46 (Aug 5, 2010)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Cheers Tom,
> 
> Like I say, I am *not* expecting everyone to suddenly accept this and raise their temperatures accordingly. What I am hoping for, is that people will realize that a gradient is essential for all reptiles, and _Rhacodactylus_ species are no exception.
> 
> Andy


I see no reason why they wouldn't. There is no risk involved afterall providing a cooler spot is given. This is why I made my original thread as it didn't add up that the "room temperature" species weren't being housed with thermal gradients. That and I found Tokay's in the wild preferred spots that were 84*f and it got me thinking about "ideal" temperatures for their bodies to run at.


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Ah I did miss this question, my own animals were fed a mixture of insects and fruit puree, but with a bias towards the former.
> 
> Sadly, I think what we consider as evidence probably varies. There is no clear evidence (and by this of course I mean sampled appropriately across the range, with an appropriate temporal strategy). Not to mention the fact that the amount of data available is very, VERY low indeed. It would appear to me, although other might disagree, that this suggestion has gained weight in the 'hobbyist' literature as a way to increase the appeal of commercial diets... Controversial perhaps, but I would say likely.
> 
> ...


*Don't get me wrong I can't argue that correct thermal regulation, in reptiles, possibly all cold blooded species, is extremely important. *

I also fell that the title Complete gecko diet, is a big oversight, but is essential in order to provide, at least a plant nectar into the geckos staple (and is why I prefer calling it Supplement gecko diet(SGD).) which otherwise would be difficult to offer (not obtain.). 

I'd also agree that there is little insight into actual measurements of the 'ideal diet', though would you release, in detail, your product?

As with the protein issues with 'CGD' I feel that even though it offers good sources of other lovelies that its somewhat off the mark in terms of natural fruit PH levels. 
PH plains a big role in all kinds of bodily functions, an incorrect balance would almost certainly have some long term effect. Things such as MBD could be candidates . 
This is why the current 'ideal' diet in my view is a mixed of fresh puréed fruits, CGD(staples, both left to turn, but thats another debate.) and live items regularly (twice weekly). Pure calcium to be used on all live items. As pretty much most of the guess work is done.

Yes there is little research available, but what is available quite distinctively points towards a high plant matter diet.

Something I am interested, and have been playing with myself is, if low amounts of live are offered (literally one/two) more regularly (every/other day) if other offered foods are ignored in favour. As it stands, I'm finding that providing a more likely feeding 'experience' that more fruit and GCD was consumed. Much more that the live items themselves could consume, I sure. This was more a small scale (3-18g male, 30g female) venture to increase appetite towards non live foods so no real data was collected. But I would say it was conclusive.

First line is bold and unlined as it's the aim of this particular study.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Krispy1984 said:


> *Don't get me wrong I can't argue that correct thermal regulation, in reptiles, possibly all cold blooded species, is extremely important. *
> 
> I also fell that the title Complete gecko diet, is a big oversight, but is essential in order to provide, at least a plant nectar into the geckos staple (and is why I prefer calling it Supplement gecko diet(SGD).) which otherwise would be difficult to offer (not obtain.).
> 
> ...


There is no reason to expect that pH balance would be negatively affected by a livefood 'heavy' diet, although I see the point you are making. I'd rather this didn't turn into a debate on the merits of CGD (mainly because it would detract from threads key points, and secondly, because I would happily list all the negatives which invalidate most of the claims of this product, and it probably isn't helpful - i'd happily comment on another thread dedicated to it though).

Again, I feel the need to raise this point though (highlighted), the 'evidence' that exists shows nothing conclusive (either way), and even if you wanted to take something from it (which I would urge against), an old saying comes to mind "put nonsense in, get nonsense out". If you use poor quality data to make assumptions... they likely will not be correct.

Any way, you raise some interesting points, it is *very* clear *some* work needs to be done on 'natural' diet, although it would need to be unbiased, which unfortunately given the current state of affairs, is unlikely to happen... Thats another story though!

I am not saying people should feed only live, far from it. It did allow me to restrict parameters in the experiment though, which is useful...

Kind regards,

Andy


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

GlasgowGecko said:


> So my sample size for this is much lower unfortunately, as I am not an advocate of this type of diet for many reasons. In reality, it is as easy to measure volume consumed for CGD, as you can weigh it in, and out of the tank.
> 
> Andy


How would you compensate for it loosing to gaining moisture content?

It would be a wide variable.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Krispy1984 said:


> How would you compensate for it loosing to gaining moisture content?
> 
> It would be a wide variable.


Sorry, didn't make that clear did I? Dry weight, so no compensation needed. Weight the powder before you add water, and then fully desiccate the remaining diet (it helps to have appropriate facilities for this, another reason for the much reduced sample size). I guess there are other ways to do it also, but the key point here would be that growth rate on this diet is reduced in comparison to an insect based diet.

Interestingly I am pretty concerned about the amount of posts which state the age and size of their animals, and the lack of noticeable growth. I think this represents a real problem.

Andy


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

All very interesting, I had wondered why it was recomended to keep a cold blooded animal at what is essentially a constant temperature. My assumption had been that there was enough variance in ambient temperature in the average room to mean that artifical (here used to describe the gradient in a carefully contolled enviroment such as a viv) means of introducing a temperature gradient was unecessary. 

With regards to food it is my understanding (I am by no means an expert nor indeed profess any knowledge whatsoever) that reptiles are opertunistic (sp) feeders. Therefore surely there would be a relatively steady cycle of food types? i.e at the end of fruit season there would be a rise in the number of grubs from fuit flies, roaches etc; then more fruit flies/insects/roaches; then more fruit etc etc. Therefore it would surely depend when these feacel tests on wild animals where done - you may find 60% fruit starch one month, but 60% chitin/protein the next. 

Whether it would be beneficial to follow the same sort of cycle with animals in captivity would make an interesting study. 

I am of the opinion that lizards/reptiles/any animal are far better at knowing (instinctively in their case) what they need then we will ever be. This would certainly be the case in the wild. The dificulty comes that when in captivity and we are responsible for their enviroment - not that I am saying that this is a bad thing. To some extent we will always be one step behind.


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

Very interesting.

I'm a bit concerned about your last comment about summer over heating, it even seems to contradict your own recommendation about gradient.

In the summer heat there would likely be no gradient.

With the gradient of 75-90 in your study the animals can move as they feel the need.

If in the summer heat they are too hot, they cannot get cooler.

It is indicated that its the stress that is damaging to the animal not directly the temperature.


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

Slurm said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> I'm a bit concerned about your last comment about summer over heating, it even seems to contradict your own recommendation about gradient.
> 
> ...


As these are arboreal there will always be a temperature gradient in the wild somewhere - In the wild an animal will naturally gravitate (with some exceptions no doubt) to a place of less stress or heat. In extreme cases I imagine that a crestie would burrow into the forrest floor to avoid extremes.

The issue in captivity no doubt arises due that fact they cannot go anywhere to avoid high temperatures - I would imagine that this is what makes them stressed. Not the high temps per se.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

Slurm said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> I'm a bit concerned about your last comment about summer over heating, it even seems to contradict your own recommendation about gradient.
> 
> ...


Well spotted paul! Yes, this was poorly worded. Temperatures within the gradient I used are clearly not harmful when a gradient is used. Constant single temperatures at this level, without the possibility of escape _could_ be harmful!

Thanks for pointing that out for clarification!

Andy


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> Sufficed to say this is version of the results is dumbed down (not because people won't understand, but simply to focus on the point of required thermal gradients), and because of this much of the scientific detail has been removed. Hopefully, if I ever get round to it, I will write it up for peer-review (although, it is of little interest to the scientific community in general I suspect. This experiment was demonstrated on Leopard geckos nearly 20 years ago).
> 
> ...


I like my stats and since i spend much of the day studying them, i like to know a few things before I accept probability, however, your results are very intersting. 

Edit: i just noticed you said in the text you did a multivate ANOVA (MANOVA) and then used the phase ANOVA, which one was it? was it just a typo?

the following questions work for either(sorry for being a pain)

Im affraid I'm going to be a bit geeky here. OK, so with the ANOVA, did you calcutate and eta value (effect size)? as i would be really interested in it. 

Also, since you did the ANOVA were the results significant at all time points or was it just the overall differnce that was significant. were there any post hoc tests done? 

personally i would write it up as from what you said it would be worthy of publication via peer review, I know simula papers exisit for other speices but you could certainly justfy it for this species. 

Appologies for all the stats questions, im just interested. 

Jay


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## sambridge15 (Nov 22, 2009)

i always disagreed with the temps crested geckos are kept at considring the temps of the isle of pines(one of the few wild populations) The Climat at Isle of Pines seems funny they die or get stressed over 27 when temps can reach as high as 31


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## Helly2010 (Mar 6, 2011)

ok, apologies, if i come across as stupid, but I have a 45X45X60 exo. Thermostat, heat mat & temp gages at top and bottom. Thermo is turned up during day to c.77oF, turned down to 60ish at evening. Is this appropriate for thermo-regulation? Or should a bulb be used? 

thanks


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

personally for me, i have the heatmat on the back wall and dont use the poly backing.

This means the back is warmer than the front which as discussed allows some degree of thermal regulation.


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## GeckoD (May 30, 2010)

I am glad you have raised this issue as it has always niggled me in the back of mind but I have never really questioned it because, you just don't, if all keepers (including the "experts") say that this is common practice then you don't really question it...

I would, however, like to take this opportunity to ask (someone who is likely to have explored all the particulars) what field studies have been carried out regarding this subject and also the natural diet of the species? 
With the semi recent re-discovery of the species; has there been sufficient enough time-scale to carry out extensive research into these habits and requirements, in that most husbandry practice is based on years of first hand experience and extensive captive and wild specimen monitoring to establish the "facts" on the "CORRECT" care and requirements. 

Your studies show that, given a thermal gradient, this species will actively use it and your results seem to prove that and more to your point that it is therefore more beneficial, but as already stated, what affects would this increased growth rate have on the overall long term heath of the subjects, their longevity and subsequently their off spring?
It has been shown that a generally faster metabolism, higher heart rate inherits a shorter lifespan and that accelerated growth rate can lead to underdevelopment of bone structure for example and of course will inherently effect the offspring...?
I'm not sure of my point exactly, this might sound weird or may be completely wrong but, doesn't the whole live fast, die young thing apply here, respectively? lol 

I mean, given that the species hasn't been studied for multiple generations as with other species like E. _macularius _. Have we had enough time to be adequately extensive in our investigations and explore all the variables? 
I know this is what you are in the process of doing and with more funding you would be able to do more, but surely at this point is it not just speculation?

Thanks
Darryl


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## Slurm (Jun 6, 2008)

to be fair i think logical theories like glasgows are first to be postulated then quickly studied for viability and then next would come the extensive study.

you cant just jump into a longterm study on animals without an assesment into the viability.

the lifestyle of this animal suggests a gradient theory, ie lives in trees and canopy's yet also eats fruits fallen to the ground. 

in a tree 10m up in the canopy or on the ground eating the temperature will be different.

Glasgows not stating that from this time on everyone should change to a gradient approach, but that it "could" be beneficial from his short term study and that it requires further investigation if we wish to do the best by our animals.

I do notice that although my house is always well over 70f the cresties do seem to enjoy climbing on the back wall where my heat mat is.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

GeckoD said:


> I would, however, like to take this opportunity to ask (someone who is likely to have explored all the particulars) what field studies have been carried out regarding this subject and also the natural diet of the species?
> With the semi recent re-discovery of the species; has there been sufficient enough time-scale to carry out extensive research into these habits and requirements, in that most husbandry practice is based on years of first hand experience and extensive captive and wild specimen monitoring to establish the "facts" on the "CORRECT" care and requirements.


Well, as far as I am aware (so not fool proof, but pretty close  ) there has been no satisfactory field work done on these species, and certainly none that I would choose to base my husbandry practice on. Others of course will feel differently about this, it is after all up to the individual keeper to make a choice based on the information they can gather



> Your studies show that, given a thermal gradient, this species will actively use it and your results seem to prove that and more to your point that it is therefore more beneficial, but as already stated, what affects would this increased growth rate have on the overall long term heath of the subjects, their longevity and subsequently their off spring?
> It has been shown that a generally faster metabolism, higher heart rate inherits a shorter lifespan and that accelerated growth rate can lead to underdevelopment of bone structure for example and of course will inherently effect the offspring...?
> I'm not sure of my point exactly, this might sound weird or may be completely wrong but, doesn't the whole live fast, die young thing apply here, respectively? lol


I'll admit it seems very odd so many have picked up this point. To establish what 'inappropriately fast' growth rate is, we first have to establish the 'normal' range, and this has not been done (nor do I see any viable options to do it). I also don't think we have any firm grounds to base an average life span on, for this species. So that makes these questions difficult to answer. From an 'survival' (individual AND species) perspective, 'fast' (relative) growth rates will be favored, although 'wild' and 'captive' selection criteria vary.

I will say, that from my perspective, the thermoregulation group does *not* represent inappropriately fast growth, and most likely represents somewhere towards the higher end of the 'normal' range (as we have discussed this would be diet dependent).

All cold blooded species *need* to thermoregulate. I suspect that we can all agree on this. For me, this means it is completely inappropriate to provide an environment with only a single temperature, regardless of what this temperature is.

As Slurm said, I am not saying everyone should up their temperature to those shown as Tp (preferred temperature) in this study. But I urge *everyone* to consider providing a thermal gradient to allow their animals to choose their required/ preferred temperature.



> I mean, given that the species hasn't been studied for multiple generations as with other species like E. _macularius _. Have we had enough time to be adequately extensive in our investigations and explore all the variables?
> I know this is what you are in the process of doing and with more funding you would be able to do more, but surely at this point is it not just speculation?
> 
> Thanks
> Darryl


Incidentally, it was this study (exactly the same protocol) on _Eublepharis_ that established their required temperatures as a captive species (still used today), and provided the same growth rate evidence we now take for granted. Of course I am not claiming this as any type of 'proof' but it *is* food for thought.

Jay, I'll send you all the stats output figures on monday when I'm back at the office.

Cheers to all for the debate,

Andy


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## Spikebrit (Oct 23, 2006)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Jay, I'll send you all the stats output figures on monday when I'm back at the office.
> 
> Cheers to all for the debate,
> 
> Andy


Cheers, sorry, for being a pain just very interested. The effect size would be interesting. if you are showing a signifiicant difference as well as a high effect size, that thats a lot of support for your claims, and deffently worth an attempt at publication. 

Jay


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

To be completely honest with you mate, while it _is_ (or at least should be) of interest to people that keep this species in captivity, it really isn't anything new in terms of 'science' (and my actual work keeps me too busy to really put in the time to write it up). Interestingly, effect size doesn't seem to be a concept that is popular outside of social science... But we can discuss this later.

I think the whole idea that people would consider species from this genus as not needing to thermoregulate independently as very strange, and the idea that any temperature between 70-80f will suffice as stranger still...

Any way, perhaps I am alone in this.

Andy


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## PaleRider (Sep 5, 2009)

Ah but, cresties were the new golden child for the industry, as I am sure you understand. In order to be successful, they had to be appealing to as wide an audience as possible by being:

1. Cheap and easy to maintain.

2. Cheap and easy to feed, and require none of those nasty bugs.

Point 1 is addressed by the "fact" that they can (or as it has now mutated into, MUST) be kept at basic room temperature (how convenient!).

Point 2 is addressed by the "fact" that they only require a convenient and clean (and very much non-live) fruit based food.

Both of these points are manipulations of the truth by an industry, which coveted the sort of sales figures that "idealised" cresties could bring. Beardies were at saturation, so a new fad had to be created, but this time, with a wider target audience.

I believe that your data regarding thermal gradients and diet (year round feeding patterns, not just those immediately before the time of capture) far better reflect the wild habits of these creatures, but industry based resistance (vested interest) and the simple perpetuation of the industry sales pitch by "amateur herpetologists'" (spit!) mean that many beloved pets will simply survive, rather than thrive.

Sad really, but full props to you for taking the time and sticking your neck out.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

PaleRider said:


> Ah but, cresties were the new golden child for the industry, as I am sure you understand. In order to be successful, they had to be appealing to as wide an audience as possible by being:
> 
> 1. Cheap and easy to maintain.
> 
> ...


Oh, I fully agree, but is it herpetology though? (I'm joking!)

For those of you who are interested, here are the actual statistical outputs, which may help you make an informed decision.

*Table 1:* Analysis of variance of growth rate (Mb) in 52 crested geckos raised from birth under two thermal conditions (treatments). Treatment effects were highly significant, indicating that thermoregulation increased Mb. The significance of sources of variation involving repeated measures over time are adjusted using the Greenhouse-Geiser (G-G) and Huynh-Feldt (H-F) epsilon factors.

*Table 2:* Analysis of variance of food consumption in 52 crested geckos raised from birth under two thermal conditions (treatments). There was no significant effect of treatment on consumption, after the effects of body mass, time, and growth (time*mass) were accounted for. Thus suggesting that treatment-induced differences in growth rate (Table 1) were not simply due to differences in consumption.


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

My OH pointed out you'd posted about an experiment you had been conducting with regards to heating, and thermoregulation, and I've finally got around to reading it.

I found it interesting, and informative, so much so we are both currently looking to have a change around and provide a thermal gradient for our Rhacs. I have many reasons as to why I want to adapt my setups to this, but mainly to improve the setups as I've always considered the impact a steady 22C is having everyday, and although a drop to 18C at night, I don't see this being enough for them to thermoregulate. 

We are going to trial Heat Cable and lamps. I currently have lamps on my U. Guentheri & Henkeli and T. Rapicauda, and since this, all species have been more interested in food, more active, and it's been lovely to see, so it's been in my mind to try this with my Rhacs, not just my Juveniles and babies, but adults too. 

Thanks for posting this, and I may have some further questions, I just found some of the other comments well worth reading too. Good to finally see some interesting, helpful advice again.

Jac


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

purple-vixen said:


> My OH pointed out you'd posted about an experiment you had been conducting with regards to heating, and thermoregulation, and I've finally got around to reading it.
> 
> I found it interesting, and informative, so much so we are both currently looking to have a change around and provide a thermal gradient for our Rhacs. I have many reasons as to why I want to adapt my setups to this, but mainly to improve the setups as I've always considered the impact a steady 22C is having everyday, and although a drop to 18C at night, I don't see this being enough for them to thermoregulate.
> 
> ...


Hi Jac (never fails to make me smile... infantile I know, don't say it on an plane though!)

Thanks for the comment. Please feel free (as ever) to ask any questions you have. I hope that this thread has made a lot of keepers think more about the benefits (or lack there of) of keeping their Rhacs at a single temperature (which is a little arbitrary in all honesty), rather than with a gradient. It will be interesting to see if those that make a change, notice any differences.

Kind regards,

Andy


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## purple-vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hi Jac (never fails to make me smile... infantile I know, don't say it on an plane though!)
> 
> Thanks for the comment. Please feel free (as ever) to ask any questions you have. I hope that this thread has made a lot of keepers think more about the benefits (or lack there of) of keeping their Rhacs at a single temperature (which is a little arbitrary in all honesty), rather than with a gradient. It will be interesting to see if those that make a change, notice any differences.
> 
> ...


Well simple things that create a smile are always a win! 

I certainly will, it will take us a while to get the trial tested and whichever works better (I'm hoping for lights and not cable) will take a fair few weeks to get setup, but am already planning the "big move round". 

As you know, I may have a few animals, and it can take a while to feed them all, but I'm always looking to better their setups and try to improve their lifestyle. This really has intrigued me, therefore I am looking forward to seeing if there will be a difference in food intake mainly. Some of my adults don't seem interested at times, but those at a higher temperature (only by a few degress higher in the room) seem to eat more live. I can't base that on any facts other than what I've noticed, but will certainly keep you updated on how it goes.

Jac


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## forteh (Feb 9, 2009)

GlasgowGecko said:


> Hi Jac (never fails to make me smile... infantile I know, don't say it on an plane though!)


:lol2:

Andy, given your experience with heat cables for cresites, what minimum length of cable would you expect to be required to heat an 18" cube (exo specifically) for cresties given a room ambient of 20-21°C? How did you have it setup in your experiment vivs and what were the dimensions?

Weve not played with any yet and dont know of its effective ambient heating capacity, in particular producing a gradient; Im presuming it will be better than a heatmat on the side wall. As Jac said, were looking to rearrange our crestie tanks to facilitate adding a head source, unfortnately as many are stacked its not feasible to add an incadescant so cable may well be the way to go if it proves efficient enough.


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## GlasgowGecko (Feb 23, 2008)

forteh said:


> :lol2:
> 
> Andy, given your experience with heat cables for cresites, what minimum length of cable would you expect to be required to heat an 18" cube (exo specifically) for cresties given a room ambient of 20-21°C? How did you have it setup in your experiment vivs and what were the dimensions?
> 
> Weve not played with any yet and dont know of its effective ambient heating capacity, in particular producing a gradient; Im presuming it will be better than a heatmat on the side wall. As Jac said, were looking to rearrange our crestie tanks to facilitate adding a head source, unfortnately as many are stacked its not feasible to add an incadescant so cable may well be the way to go if it proves efficient enough.


It is certainly an interesting question, and one I'm not sure I can be too much help with, but i'll give it a go:

Heat cable, like heat mats, tends to create a 'hot spot' and so (mainly) functions as an all or nothing heat source. This is not ideal (but likely better than nothing at all in the vast majority of cases). However, the benefit of heat cable, is that the more densely it is layed in any given area, the higher the temperature (within certain bounds), so this means that it does alow you to create a 2-dimensional gradient (which isn't quite as good as a 3-D one, but when needs must...).

This is the method I used for the Tp (preferred temperature) experiments (where movement way restricted).

Unfortunately it will take some experimenting (and likely several meters of cable), but it may help to follow the same protocol I used. The below diagram (yes, it's not great, but it should help to demonstrate what I mean) shows a polystyrene board (cut to the dimensions of the viv wall) with regular grooves cut into it (the closer the groves, the more consistent the temperature). Within those grooves, we lay the heat cable (Orange on this picture). The more heat cable per groove, the higher the temperature at this point. I then add a thin metal (or other conducting material) layer to the top of the unit (dashed line on the diagram), as this 'smoothes' the each distinct temperature groove into a gradient.

I didn't use a stat to achieve this gradient, but you may need too. 

Sorry I can't be much more help than that. For my growth rate enclosures we didn't use this method.

Kind regards,

Andy


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## forteh (Feb 9, 2009)

Interesting, a bit of experimenting will be required I think. I have had good results with adding an aluminium heatsink to a small heatmat, an 11w mat + heatsink heated a 24x18x9 up to 90°F in the warm end, perhaps something along those lines can be setup; much like a low powered reptile rad.


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## 12843 (Nov 16, 2007)

Low wattage (8-20w)Energy saver bulbs are great for creating a thermal gradient in exo terra's, and as I'm sure you have the room temp regulated, you'd find it easy enough to select the correct wattage. 

My room ambient is around 21-22c (70ish f) and by using a 11watt lamp with a reflector I'm about to gain to 84-70f gradients that is pretty stable, in an 30cm cube. I use a 20wat in a 45cm high, but have the reflector vented. Same gradient was achieved. 

The viv designs are simple, to help ensure good ventilation, but not without shade and several hiddy holes. Humidity is quite stable lower down (under cork for example), but under the lamp it can be tricky to keep it up above 35%. 

In the near future I may swap out the CFL and chande to UVb producing lamps of the same/similar wattage.


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

GlasgowGecko said:


> As most owners of any _Rhacodactylus_ species will undoubtedly be aware, “room temperature” is “ideal” for species within this genus. Of course, this is suitably vague, but “room temperature” can be further refined as being between 70-80°f (21-27°C). This temperature is generally easy to maintain, and in most cases, does not require the use of any additional heat sources. While it is clear that this heating routine is relatively successful (in so far as there are large numbers of _Rhacodactylus_ geckos kept and bred in the UK annually), I am not fully convinced as to its suitability for the sustained health, and performance of these animals.
> 
> Thermoregulation, as you will all likely be aware, is the act of maintaining body temperature within given thermal limits in order for normal bodily processes to take place at optimal (or near optimal) efficiency. The key to successful thermoregulation then, relies on being able to heat and cool the body, according to predefined requirements, using available temperature gradients within the environment. This therefore means that unless your tank is set at the thermal optimal for your species (or indeed specific individual), then you must provide a thermal gradient, and allow the animal to thermoregulate independently. Failure to do this, will likely result in sub-optimal performance, which generally manifests itself as lower than expected appetite, reduced growth rate, impaired digestive ability and other similar symptoms.
> 
> ...


Im new to this section and was recommended to read this, very very interesting read and you make a very good point. I have only had my crestie 10days but I will go out on friday to supply her with a bulb and thermostat, I know about thermo regulation but didnt realise just how important it was, your results are really quite impressive. I would recommend the Moderators to sticky this in the FAQs or Care Sheets section. Also would be interesting if your a breeder to see if you or someone you know who is a breeder could try this experiement again, if the same kind of result occur it can only be conclusive that indeed a thermal gradient is required and that alot of keepers have been ill advised by petshops and this is something we should ook to change, not to flame people but to help them understand their pets as we are all on these type of forums to help one another as we come together because we all love our animals. Anyways thats my tuppence worth, thanks again for an interesting read.


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## lukeors (May 5, 2011)

very handy info indeed


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## wezza309 (Jun 21, 2012)

*cresties*

I have just read this post its answered a lot of what i have found out with the temp rising in the last few days but made me wonder more about the best things for each point . I have enjoyed reading this thank you . 

Temp
I like a lot on here have exo terra vivs so it seems there could be a standard set up that would suit our geckos 

As i am new to looking after reptiles could some one give a list or some info 

Diet
As for the diet both my cresties where fed on suppliments when i got them but i have not seen them eat much where as i have put cricket in and they both seem to enjoy them one will eat ripe banana but at the min are not keen on the suppliments. So i think as has been said "they know more what they want than we do"


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## nicnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Very interesting reading even though I do not keep gecko's


As to the growth rate, I would presume that the faster a reptile can achieve good size and weight in the wild the better for them. There is absolutely no advantage to a reptile the size of a gecko to stay smaller longer and the sooner they get to full hunting size they more effective and safe they would become.

On that premise, as long as no artificial stimulants are used to force growth, then simply altering their temperature gradients to a more natural setup would in fact simulate their natural growth patterns and not the artificial slower growth that a single temp would give.

Even at night in Africa where I was brought up, you will find area's that hold more heat than others. Ie, under a tree or near a large rock overhang is always warmer than out in the open. In the wild I would presume that a gecko species would use that natural heat sink area to thermoregulate. Not all heat on a night is created equal and if they are able to do that in the wild then they have obviously developed their natural growth rates around that and providing hotspots and a gradient would be simply offering them a natural environment.

Andy, As I was brought up in africa i did however note that there is very little in the way of an actual gradient near these night hotspots. They tend to be more of a single heat sink area. You could however test that by putting a few different sized rocks out in the garden and testing heat at each inch away from the different sized ones to see exactly how fast that gradient drops off. Might give you more clues on exactly how fast the gradient drops.



edit. Will be interesting to compare birth weights of offspring from the two groups also if they are still being held in the same seperate conditions. Healthier bigger gecko's on the gradient should technically have more researves to pass on to the eggs and so have a higher quality yolk, which in turn should produce heavier / bigger hatchlings.



edit. another note to consider. On a night in Africa when I was out camping in the wilds was that you will find that the lower down you are the warmer it is, up until a few inches off the ground if it is damp. Higher on a night means colder not warmer once your off ground level. I would again presume that this would mean that gecko's would in fact get their heat lower to the ground rather than higher up in the viv, again something that may want testing out.


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## Geckogirl_88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Great findings.

I noticed a huge difference in my cresties after I introduced extra lighting /heat via a canopy. The gradient is only across around 4C, but I noticed a huge increase in activity and natural interactions. They clearly thermoregulate, moving to just under the lamp on cooler days or sleeping near the floor on warmer days.

It's about time the average advice was not simply "keep them at room temperature" to keep them "fine".
xx


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## PurpleHeyze (Aug 7, 2010)

GlasgowGecko said:


> As most owners of any _Rhacodactylus_ species will undoubtedly be aware, “room temperature” is “ideal” for species within this genus. Of course, this is suitably vague, but “room temperature” can be further refined as being between 70-80°f (21-27°C). This temperature is generally easy to maintain, and in most cases, does not require the use of any additional heat sources. While it is clear that this heating routine is relatively successful (in so far as there are large numbers of _Rhacodactylus_ geckos kept and bred in the UK annually), I am not fully convinced as to its suitability for the sustained health, and performance of these animals.
> 
> Thermoregulation, as you will all likely be aware, is the act of maintaining body temperature within given thermal limits in order for normal bodily processes to take place at optimal (or near optimal) efficiency. The key to successful thermoregulation then, relies on being able to heat and cool the body, according to predefined requirements, using available temperature gradients within the environment. This therefore means that unless your tank is set at the thermal optimal for your species (or indeed specific individual), then you must provide a thermal gradient, and allow the animal to thermoregulate independently. Failure to do this, will likely result in sub-optimal performance, which generally manifests itself as lower than expected appetite, reduced growth rate, impaired digestive ability and other similar symptoms.
> 
> ...


Curosity here, not questioning your work really because I think it's fantastic :2thumb: more seeing what you thought about this, but you said you weren't bias in the samples used, I was just wondering if there were different colour morphs used in the sample, and whether being of a different colour morph would affect how fast Cresties could grow. The only reason I thought of this is because they can be bred for colour based on genetics but there could be other genes passed on with these that could inhibit growth slightly. I know thats a long shot that that would happen but always a possiblity  just wondering on your thoughts


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## rita1 (Aug 24, 2012)

brilliant read, i have tried to find out as much as possible about the gecko's and their natural life in the wild and when you consider they come from a warm climate it would only be right to try and imitate that as near as possible in captivity. I can't believe that they are happy with no heating as i know so many people keep them without the comfort of heat, when i did put in heating into his enclosure i noticed how much he just love sitting under the heat lamp and warming up. although he will move quite happy around his viv he will always settle back under the heat section to sleep.
so i have no doubt that the crestie enjoys having heat in their enclosure.


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## Robynleanne (Mar 31, 2013)

Amazing read. Why has this not been posted on every 'crested gecko setup' post?! Even if not to sway decisions, but simply to educate! I wish I'd read this when I first picked up my boy. He's going into a 45x45x60 next week so I'll be picking him up heat and stat at the weekend. Thanks


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

this is a great study/resource and to be commended.

My concern after reading it is that people will take the message of higher temps=faster growth and try to provide hatchlings with higher end temps. If applied to the letter of your findings with regard to providing a gradient, this is fine. However, some people do not bother to read/research properly and or misunderstand things. As hatchlings tend to be in smaller enclosures, providing higher temps along with an adequate gradient is a challenge. Coupled with higher sensitivty to environment seen in smaller hatchlings this could lead to death. I just worry people will go away and overheat hatchlings by misapplication of the study. 

This does not reflect negatively in any way on the information you are providing keepers with which is great.

Thank you for the informative post.


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