# dart frog basic questions



## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

These are questions I have and I would just like some clarification  


1) quarantine, if I buy 4 or 5 frogs from the same person, do I spilt them up and QT seperately? 

2) in breeding, if I buy 4 or 5 frogs from the same person, they will be of the same bloodline. Should I try to find 4 or 5 different sellers? Or is in breeding not the same issue as it is in other animals? I find this area confusing tbh

3) does everyone here get fecals done? Is there a specific vet you all send them too?

Cheers for the help :notworthy:


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

plasma234 said:


> These are questions I have and I would just like some clarification
> 
> 
> 1) quarantine, if I buy 4 or 5 frogs from the same person, do I spilt them up and QT seperately?
> ...


1. If their from the same seller I.wouldn't have thought it necessary to separate them all.. Just keep a close eye for any problems or signs of illness as normal..

2. If you can get them the say sex then get the opposite elsewhere... Or mention it to the breeder/supplier... They maybe able to give you unrelated animals..

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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

I`m guessing your thinking of buying the same morph, if so then why quarantine them.
Just put them into the viv they`ll be spending their lives in.
Frogs don`t suffer from inbreeding problems like other animals or like humans do so you shouldn`t have issues.
Sometimes it is possible to pick up frogs from unrelated parents.
I`ll not get onto the subject of wasting money on a vet so I`ll leave that for someone else.

Mike


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

frogman955 said:


> I`ll not get onto the subject of wasting money on a vet so I`ll leave that for someone else.


And you know I feel exactly the same about them mate . Robbing gits who generally know sweet F.A about phibs.

Anyhoo, if they're from the same source and of the same morph I wouldn't bother. Depending on their age I sometimes use a small basic tub set up to monitor feeding etc until they go in to their proper viv but generally they just go straight in.

Mikes on the money with the inbreeding thing but you could ask for specimines from unrelated parents. Also there's no harm in introducing new bloodlines. And THAT is when you'll want to quarantine


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

ronnyjodes said:


> . Also there's no harm in introducing new bloodlines. And THAT is when you'll want to quarantine


Thilly me I missed that part out.
Nice one Jonny.


Mike


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

Cheers for clearing it up, I have read a lot about QT process but it didn't click. Thanks for that. I kind of knew that inbreeding is okay, but again I just wanted to know 100%
The yanks seen to send off a fecal for every frog they get but I didn't want to waste cash if it isn't necessary or there isn't a vet that even understands them.

thanks again for your help. Invaluable.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

plasma234 said:


> These are questions I have and I would just like some clarification
> 
> 
> 1) quarantine, if I buy 4 or 5 frogs from the same person, do I spilt them up and QT seperately?
> ...



1, Qt the animals as a group ,if from same seller

2 finding frogs here that one can genuinely say are outcrosses might be very difficult.Callum inbreeding is far from ideal,but that said we don't tend to see maybe as many problems as we could do,or maybe they are there and just not showing themselves YET.Certainly there appear to be some issues being reported in the american hobby tinc Lorenzo for example,of poor fertility/hatchability.By and large we are not seeing these reported here.So yeah sure if you can find two lines of unrelated stock OF THE SAME MORPH then go for it. But buying from two different sellers means jack sh*it in the big sceme,as both of those breeders might have bought their frogs from the same guy 

Callum we keep Panama Special Auratus,the original stock was imported by Wassmann and Birhanham 8-10 animals I believe.these auratus must be pretty inbreed by now,but they hatch and morph out well.I'm sure though that they are not as strong as the superblue auratus I keep,its a tiny difference mate,one I can only elude to really from having hatched and reared many of both.It isn't manifesting itself as much more than hatchability is not quite so good,livability and viability of the kids is great,probably mid 90% Sb would be high 90's(both figures are probably a bit low,mortality is very small).This slight difference with two morphs of the same species might be nowt to do with inbreeding,there might be another factor at play, who knows. If i was a betting man that's what I would put my money on though.

Not so many folks do fecals here in the phib world mate as in the States,when I started it was almost impossible to find a vet capable,our hobby is so small finding experts with amphibians is no easy fete. herpvet.co.uk, Pal labs and Manor exotics are some leads for you.This subject of frog health is complex. for example there isn't complete agreement about whether some paracites might actually be benefical to frogs,but for sure some are best treated. At the very least having a course of fecals done whilst in QT should give one an insight into potential problems and the advice to go with it regarding treatment. Again a complex subject,some keepers just shotgun(treat everything that comes into the collection, others think that to be insane.

I guess simply if one uses a vet and fecals one knows what is going on,but one pays for that,if one doesn't then one is stabbing in the dark as far as treatment goes. Just be aware that a fecal doesn't tell one the whole story nor does it cover every potential problem.The protocol of 3 clean fecals exists,because the paracites don't always show up with just one fecal. 


Stu


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I see what you are saying regarding the ability to find different bloodlines, we are on a small island in a small hobby. Will this years HAMM be before or after BAKS, because I could put an order in to try to get a few different blood lines. The issue is with waiting for them to be sexed and buying males from one and females from another is that when they reach the correct age the price leaps forward, which makes sense. 

I am not looking to breed frogs, or become a breeder, but I don't think I'd have the ability to euthanize perfectly healthy froglets and would rather raise to purely swap for supplies, or other frogs. But I definitely wouldn't want to put out frogs that are damaging the hobby long term. 

With regards to fecals, I guess if you have a frog room with multiple species, you would want to ensure you are not introducing any kind of disease, but the guy with only one frog tank can afford to take the risk, even if they shouldn't for the frogs benefit. 



QT them together you say, how long do *you *QT groups for? What size rub should this be in say for 5 leucs or 3/4 terribs? I have to buy a rub, I want to make sure I buy the correct size first time. :2thumb:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

plasma234 said:


> I see what you are saying regarding the ability to find different bloodlines, we are on a small island in a small hobby. Will this years HAMM be before or after BAKS, because I could put an order in to try to get a few different blood lines. The issue is with waiting for them to be sexed and buying males from one and females from another is that when they reach the correct age the price leaps forward, which makes sense.
> 
> I am not looking to breed frogs, or become a breeder, but I don't think I'd have the ability to euthanize perfectly healthy froglets and would rather raise to purely swap for supplies, or other frogs. But I definitely wouldn't want to put out frogs that are damaging the hobby long term.
> 
> ...


 ,very very few breeders here keep their kids to adulthood,to a point they can be 100% sexed,you'ld be buying from folks whom are selling up that species as a rule of thumb.

If you bought a group of leucs or terribs and reared to adulthood,ie males calling females laying eggs,then the surplus i think you would easily find homes for. I don't think on any level there would be a need for euthinasia,especially with these two species. 
The reason it's so difficult to track line is lack or record keeping.

3 month QTin a tub,with or without fecals,3 fold reasons,1 easy to observe really shy frogs,especially for a new guy,whom needs to know that that frog he hasn't seen for 2 weeks isn't dead,without taring up a viv,2 observation of health difficult: to monitor a frog loosing weight if ya can't see it! 3 Tell me what happens when you have put your 5 new frogs in a viv and 2 of them have died 2 weeks later,have you just contaminated your viv,is it stress,or have you now got X nasty in viv,so do you bung away all the background the plants the subs your work,do you wait to see if the other 3 are randomly ok. Is the viv contaminated,build wise beyond frog deaease? If you QT in a tub,and they are ok after 3 months,your risking far less, think on the what if's

Setting up a tub costs little tub £3 tesco wham is the make,two holes diagonally opposing 6cm covered with ff mesh siliconed in and out tub size 42x32.5across the lid 26high,measured in CM.

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Just to weigh in on the bloodlines issue. Here in the UK we actually have more bloodlines than in the US. This is thanks to all the frogs coming into the UK via Europe, which happens a whole lot less in the US thanks to there much stricter laws.

Many of the auratus, tinctorius and pumilios in the UK are either wild caught or F1s. A serious contrast to the US.

On the finding homes subject, leucs fly out of the door. Seriously, people always want them. Terribs it seems less so. Many tinctorius seem to sell well too, where pumilios go in peaks and troughs. Pums don't breed in the same quantities as any of the above though, so it doesn't hurt to just keep offspring longer until a peak comes along again. Where possible I like to swap offspring with other hobbyists. Where I do sell a few it's money that goes back into the hobby, things like upgrading vivs, lighting, new misting pumps etc. Few people get into darts for the purpose of breeding them, however the offspring help to pay for an otherwise expensive hobby, including expanding your hobby.

On the topic of QT tanks/tubs. Have a look at the rearing viv/invert viv that dms-vivaria does. If you decide on a plastic box though, do yourself a favour and go for a REAL really useful box. They're much much better made, the lids fit better etc. Some folks just set up a viv for quarantine though. Just keeping it very very simple, so that everything in there can either be binned or sterilised if the need arises. They then re-use this each time, sterilising between uses.

Ade


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

To get past the euthanising bit.. i wasn't considering it. If i get even 1 egg i will try my hardest to raise it.. 

My simple question regarding blood lines has seemed to become a more complex point, but i think i get it.....Inbreeding isn't bad, well not proven to be yet. If i can get different blood lines then great. 

and a 3 month QT period together if the same morph form the same person,.the rearing viv is 20x30x30cm which is 12 litres. so i can get a rearing viv, or a 12litre rub. My main viv is sat on a tv unit with two squares which can fit 2 30cm cubes, so i might get one and make it the QT tank. :2thumb:

and fecals are indifferent, if you can find the right vet and the right price. 

am i missing anything? 




> Just to weigh in on the bloodlines issue. Here in the UK we actually have more bloodlines than in the US. This is thanks to all the frogs coming into the UK via Europe, which happens a whole lot less in the US thanks to there much stricter laws.


Interesting, as they are a lot closer to them then us. Never would have thought.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Just to confuse you even more, morphs come about when a population becomes isolated somehow from other populations, in other words, when they start inbreeding.  So you can't actually really avoid inbreeding to some degree with darts, not without mixing morphs. It's not like in the wild they go "heck no, we're related!". lol

Ade


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> Just to confuse you even more, morphs come about when a population becomes isolated somehow from other populations, in other words, when they start inbreeding.  So you can't actually really avoid inbreeding to some degree with darts, not without mixing morphs. It's not like in the wild they go "heck no, we're related!". lol
> 
> Ade


Do be fair... Everything is inbred... All species have started off as individuals at some point.. How.we evolved from apes from example.. It's only disease and predation that keeps a species strong.... 

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## Patto96 (Apr 18, 2013)

plasma234 said:


> These are questions I have and I would just like some clarification
> 
> 2) in breeding, if I buy 4 or 5 frogs from the same person, they will be of the same bloodline. Should I try to find 4 or 5 different sellers? Or is in breeding not the same issue as it is in other animals? I find this area confusing tbh
> 
> Cheers for the help :notworthy:


Inbreeding only takes effect after a lot of generations. If you started with just two individuals and bred those two together and their offpring together and their offspring together and so on. You wouldn't notice much affect until the 5th generation or so. This varies depending on species and a lot of time luck but a few generations without mixing it up shouldn't be a problem. 

Each potential disease has a different rate of appearing. And most of it is recessive genes that cause diseases. These usually are countered by a dominant gene which prevents the disease but if you have frogs which both have the gene which causes this disease it is certain that an individual of that species is getting that disease (only 2 alleles of the same gene)

So there shouldn't be a problem, but adding a few individuals down the line would help prevent problems. I would say introduce new brood stock at the 3rd generation (if only breeding the same individual frogs). 

This problem has arisen quite badly with tropical seahorse breeders. As all of the species kept are heavily protected under Cites, the breeders can't get hold of new stock. A lot of them are now asking places like Chester zoo which obtain illegally imported individuals from customs, which happen to be the only new individuals. Now a number of species of seahorses are now getting disformed tails and mouths causing feeding and holding problems reducing the chance that individual will survive. This has happened over an estimated 12 generations, but probably more. This has taken about 18 years to become a problem. I would suspect this would be less in 'higher' animals.

Now variation is different to inbreeding. Inbreeding is the use of the same genes over and over again, within a short time frame. Environmental variation (i.e. colour) Is brought by a mutation of a gene creating a new allele. This happens over thousands of years not a few decades. This slow rate gives the time for new alleles to come naturally, so although it is the same population there is more than enough different alleles of each gene to support a healthy population. Inbreeding is more an effect rather than the cause of problems. Inbreeding is the lack of different alleles. 

There are 3 types of variation:
-Environmental, where the environment e.g. predation or food affects the chance of one individual surviving to breed. Adaptations are either continuous (e.g. height) or discontinuous (Chance of being male, happens in some species)
-Genetic, where the genes give an advantage over others in something like size or colour. Can either be continuous or discontinuous
-Behavioural where the communication of one species changes. This explains why Dendrobates leucomelas colour morphs don't recognise each other as the same species and fight. This is to prevent incompatible alleles from mixing. 

These variations add up to become adaptations which help suit that animal to their own habitat. Subspecies are able to breed with each other and produce fertile offspring, but in some cases as in Dendrobates leucomelas, there are some incompatible alleles which may create some rare diseases. When there are enough adaptations so its morphology (appearance, personality and anatomy) is different to that of other species it is then called a seperate species. With the different colour morphs of Dendrobates leucomelas the only differences are the colour and a slight change in size (which may be caused by an environmental factor e.g. diet)

So whilst both both have the same population, the size of this population, time frame and outcomes are very different.

Sorry for going all science. But there is a difference between inbreeding and variation.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Wolfenrook said:


> Just to confuse you even more, morphs come about when a population becomes isolated somehow from other populations, in other words, when they start inbreeding.  So you can't actually really avoid inbreeding to some degree with darts, not without mixing morphs. It's not like in the wild they go "heck no, we're related!". lol
> 
> Ade


 You go to hell I have it on good authority that my yellow basti will damn well not breed with anything brown or green on the other side of the cemetery,she's gonna wait for a nice blue fella to appear from the tombs south of her that is not her cousin at all:whistling2::Na_Na_Na_Na:

Although I'm being silly,I think your pretty much spot on Ade,I also have a feeling I might be helping with the confusion,ha ha no bad thing if it makes someone think eh? 
Now where's that calculator gone? :lol2:

Stu


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

plasma234 said:


> The yanks seen to send off a fecal for every frog


It only sounds that way on the forums...The people that do it, preach it. It's almost as if they're better froggers because they do it. To each his own, I guess. I know plenty of American froggers and the majority don't. The people that don't, generally don't admit it on an open forum. I don't know a single Canuck frogger that does.

Coming out of the closet here. :lol2:

I don't either because I believe the meds kill beneficial organisms. I have 120+ adult frogs aand have lost 2 in the last 4+ years. Not bad odds for frogs that haven't been fecaled or treated... :gasp:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Shame on you Glenn.
Someone of your experience should know better.
Vets were put on this planet to help us frog keepers, didn`t you know that ?
Hmmmmm to help us lighten our wallets more like.
Good to see your still around :2thumb:.

Mike


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

@ Glenn: Agreed, dude- it's again on a par with the obsession with all things 'sterile'- and you know how I feel about that! :lol2:

On the inbreeding subject, with limited CB stocks it is somewhat inevitable, not just with darts but with all CB 'phibs and reps, but I can't agree with those people that say it's not a problem- as if frogs somehow broke *all* the laws of genetics. We are already seeing genetically-related defects in commonly bred animals such as leopard geckos, bearded dragons and corn snakes- and Stu has mentioned the first signs in the darts he knows. Best to head it off before it becomes a real problem by using different bloodlines, I feel.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

Ron Magpie said:


> @ Glenn: Agreed, dude- it's again on a par with the obsession with all things 'sterile'- and you know how I feel about that! :lol2:


I'm with you there, Ron. I don't sterilize squat...There IS such a thing as beneficial bacteria. Who Knew! :lol2:

Cheers,


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

A sterilised world is a poor world.
No resistance to germs and other nasties.
Lets face it where abouts in a rain forest do you see little doctor frogs running about with wet wipes and sterile wipes to clean everything down ?
The live in it and become immune to it just like we get immune to many bugs and germs while we`re growing up, until the nanny state came along that is.

Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> A sterilised world is a poor world.
> No resistance to germs and other nasties.
> Lets face it where abouts in a rain forest do you see little doctor frogs running about with wet wipes and sterile wipes to clean everything down ?
> The live in it and become immune to it just like we get immune to many bugs and germs while we`re growing up, until the nanny state came along that is.
> ...


Maybe in the same bit of forest where you find the priest frogs running around telling frogs that incest is bad? :lol2::lol2:

Ade


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> Maybe in the same bit of forest where you find the priest frogs running around telling frogs that incest is bad? :lol2::lol2:
> 
> Ade


Haha that's class Ade.
Well in the wild they all breed with their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and mums and dads anyway so whats the problem in captivity.
Oh wait, the nanny state says its a bad thing to do :lol2:.

Mike


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

Ron Magpie said:


> @ Glenn: Agreed, dude- it's again on a par with the obsession with all things 'sterile'- and you know how I feel about that! :lol2:
> 
> On the inbreeding subject, with limited CB stocks it is somewhat inevitable, not just with darts but with all CB 'phibs and reps, but I can't agree with those people that say it's not a problem- as if frogs somehow broke *all* the laws of genetics. We are already seeing genetically-related defects in commonly bred animals such as leopard geckos, bearded dragons and corn snakes- and Stu has mentioned the first signs in the darts he knows. Best to head it off before it becomes a real problem by using different bloodlines, I feel.


Glenn hey mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Ron both subjects are seriously complex,fecals and inbreeding!! 


But just for now where the dart guys do have a singular edge i think Ron is we don't line breed for traits,the minute something weird crops up,we do the exact opposite of the rest of the herp hobby We pair it to a total opposite.

Your never going to find one of us over the moon and going to make a fortune 'cause he's just bred a caramel het hypoxanthic blizzard thingy,those unusual genetic quirks get paired to normals simply we might have lines that originated somewhere,but we don't line breed

Stu


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> A sterilised world is a poor world.
> No resistance to germs and other nasties.
> Lets face it where abouts in a rain forest do you see little doctor frogs running about with wet wipes and sterile wipes to clean everything down ?
> The live in it and become immune to it just like we get immune to many bugs and germs while we`re growing up, until the nanny state came along that is.
> ...


Too true.. I think that's why there are so many allergies around now.. 

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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

frogman955 said:


> Haha that's class Ade.
> Well in the wild they all breed with their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and mums and dads anyway so whats the problem in captivity.
> Oh wait, the nanny state says its a bad thing to do :lol2:.
> 
> Mike


Sounds like the locals where I live.. Lol.

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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

soundstounite said:


> Glenn hey mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:
> 
> Ron both subjects are seriously complex,fecals and inbreeding!!
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's one thing about the Cult of the Dart I really do approve of; it seems to be free of this obsession with 'improving' on nature- but then with the range of naturally-appearing morphs, who'd need to? You make a good point, though; a lot of the problems with the animals I mentioned- 'enigma' leopard geckos spring to mind- are down to *deliberate* inbreeding to 'fix' a (usually) recessive trait. That leads to an acceleration of the problem; still, constant inbreeding from a relatively small gene pool isn't a good idea, in the long run. In fact, that's one of the problems conservationists are coming across in small, isolated wild frog populations.


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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

I think that there is enough variation even within individual morphs to never need to prove out genes and fancy new colour schemes- frogs aren't corn snakes . The auratas I picked up at BAKS were all the same morph but couldn't have looked any more different if they'd tried, varying from big blotches of black on bright green to pale green with no black at all. Hopefully, if they breed, the offspring they produce will be just as varied and all this without having to choose which frogs go with which to produce the nicest kids. I genuinely think it's possibly one of the best things about keeping phibs- there are plenty of people breeding frogs but there's none of this competitive crap you see with snake breeding where folk are pushing out designer morphs, trying to be ahead of everybody else so they can sell their offspring for thousands. I've seen talk of folk wanting to selectively breed red eyes as there seems to be colour variation in the wild with purple frogs not being unheard of but this doesn't seem to have spread to any other frogs in the hobby.

What a lot of the snakey lot don't realise is once everybody catches up these morphs that were selling for big money are then commonplace and their value drops because the market is flooded. Small hobby breeders doing it for the enjoyment lose out as they end up with stock that used to be desirable sat around not selling and I've seen a few of these breeders pack up all together as it's not worth it any more. Sure, some of the more common frog species have dropped in value but there will always be people that want to buy them and it's nowhere near as damaging. There are still folk producing tricolors, leucs and azures and despite their "commonness" they still sell, which is something you can't say the same with lower end corns and royals.

I've only ever said to one person (and he knows who he is )that he should breed back his darts to each other to try and prove if what he'd come up with was either a one off or genetic and that was only because those frogs were something seriously special that I, or a bunch of other people by all accounts, had never seen before.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

ronnyjodes said:


> There are still folk producing tricolors, leucs and azures and despite their "commonness" they still sell


Hi Ronny,

That's all I breed. Tincs, Leucs, Auratus and a few Imis and they do sell. I keep and breed them because that's what I like. There's such a high turnover rate in the hobby, there will always be a demand for the "common" frogs. It's a shame the turnover rate is so high, but pets are a novelty for soooo many!

I have two frogs that aren't selling ATM. Alanis and Bakhuis. I will keep them because I like them and destroy the eggs. I've seen a lot of frogs vanish from the hobby because they don't sell. When they become "rare" people want them again...:sad:


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

soundstounite said:


> Glenn hey mate:Na_Na_Na_Na:


Hey dude! :Na_Na_Na_Na: back at ya! lol

I still owe you a phone call...Things are settled down now. I'll shoot you an e-mail.


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## vukic (Apr 9, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> Hi Ronny,
> 
> That's all I breed. Tincs, Leucs, Auratus and a few Imis and they do sell. I keep and breed them because that's what I like. There's such a high turnover rate in the hobby, there will always be a demand for the "common" frogs. It's a shame the turnover rate is so high, but pets are a novelty for soooo many!
> 
> I have two frogs that aren't selling ATM. Alanis and Bakhuis. I will keep them because I like them and destroy the eggs. I've seen a lot of frogs vanish from the hobby because they don't sell. When they become "rare" people want them again...:sad:



some times you struggle to get the "common" forms as people tend to focus on new "morphs" and the common ones go scarce...

*"I have two frogs that aren't selling ATM. Alanis and Bakhuis. I will keep them because I like them and destroy the eggs. I've seen a lot of frogs vanish from the hobby because they don't sell."* 

- or you could always give me some... :mf_dribble:


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)




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## ronnyjodes (Apr 29, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> I keep and breed them because that's what I like.


And that's what this hobby should be about, not keeping what gives the biggest profit margin- where's the fun in that. I absolutely love my tricolors whether they're common as muck or not.


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## Harbinger (Dec 20, 2008)

I've always wanted to breed what i kept since i was a kid because once my ones died, i would have another generation to enjoy. Later on i realised it also helped the pupulation in captivity be stable and keeps pressure off WC stocks. I also really want to work in conservation like captive breeding, i doubt i ever will but this is pretty close 
It is nice when you make something back from what you spent, if only to spend it on more species and set ups 

Talking about my inverts of course, havent even bred frogs yet lol.


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

I am fairly confident that in-breeding can be problematic in dartfrogs - as it can be in virtually all other higher organisms.... Dendrobatids do not have a free pass. The 'isolation in nature leading to new morphs' justification is not applicable to the hobby situation for any number of reasons.

The reason that in-breeding appears not to be a problem is probably a consequence of our frankly pitiful attempts at record keeping - in truth, we rarely know if we are in-breeding or not. This combined with the fact that if frogs live for 5-10 years, how many keepers are really performing controlled in-breeding over four or five generations? Not many. 

I can't remember who said we have more lines in the UK than the US, but that is far from the case. We probably have more genetic diversity for the reasons posted, and random inclusion of unrelated frogs into in-bred lines is probably enough to fend off any negative effects, but we have hardly any well-established 'lines' that I am aware of.

When in-breeding happens in controlled conditions, such as people keeping pairs and back-crossing offspring over multiple generations, I think problems become more frequent. Another example is morphs of frog that came to the UK in very small numbers, sometimes even single pairs, that were bred prolifically and disseminated. For the first two or three generations there are no obvious problems, but after four or five, from my observations, we see the beginnings of reduced fecundity and developmental success. And by F4/5 many people revert to the assumption that frogs from unrelated keepers must be unrelated, unless they know the history.

Dartfrogs are not immune from the effects of inbreeding, although they may appear to be because our record keeping is a shambles. It is however a useful piece of dogma to have floating about when you are trying to sell pairs of related frogs to new keepers.

Nick


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

First up, regaring your "isolation in nature" been not applicable to the hobby, prove it. Otherwise, it's just your opinion against ours. There is more than enough evidence through genetics research in multiple areas that when you isolate a population the genetic material becomes highly limited. The fact that we have morphs at all is evidence of this. Seriously, if you really don't want to inbreed then you have no choice but to break that taboo against breeding different morphs together.

Next up, your comment about lines is just pure elitism. It basically is stating that only certain people can establish 'lines' where logic would dictate that ANYBODY starting with wild caught frogs is in fact starting a new line. Your own post supports that we get more wild caught frogs into the UK, so yes, we also have more lines than the US where there are far less wild caught frogs been imported. The evidence for this is clear for anybody who takes a look at availability here in the UK. We even have WC Azureas coming in once again, something that hasn't happened in a long time in the US.

The rest of your post, well it's your opinion and is no more or less valid than my opinion or anybody elses. If you wish to argue otherwise, then the burden of proof is upon you I am afraid to do more than to make unsupported statements.

Finally, for most people I would suggest that the best path is if YOU notice you are having problems that you suspect may be related to overly inbred stock, then would be the time to try to source a new 'bloodline' (or line if you prefer) in an attempt to introduce new genetic material. Good luck though finding frogs that are truly unrelated, without going for F1s or wild caught. Given that some of the same people arguing against inbreeding frogs are the same folks opposed to keeping wild caught frogs, you can expect flack either way. lol

I am no going to politely exit this thread, the elitists are arriving. lol

Ade


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

Wolfenrook said:


> I am no going to politely exit this thread, the elitists are arriving.


There we go, the UK dartfrog hobby once again striving for mediocrity... 

Look, if trying to improve the captive husbandry of these amazing creatures is elitism, I'm absolutely guilty as charged - although I think it's a pretty ridiculous label. Names aside though, I really hope that more people can be encouraged to join 'the elite' as you call it - as I'm sure they will with time.

As to your post, I'm confident that most can distinguish common-sense from complete non-sense, so I'm not going to dignify it with an essay in reply. I will also 'politely exit' LOL

Nick


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