# Some questions on dart frog thing



## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

I've just read a 10 page discussion on what water to use on dendrobard and there was no clear answer from anyone. Now i know there is lots of arguments and no set rule on some things. So could people answer the questions i have based on what they actually do, so i can see what the majority opinion is on some things. Opinions are also welcome though

What water do you use for misting? (sping, RO, DI, distilled, treated tap etc)
What water do you use for tadpoles?
How many mistking nozzles should i use in a 40 x 40 tank? 1 or 2?


I live in Devon and we have soft water i also have unlimited instant access to DI water but will be prepared to use spring or treated tap water if its better and someone can tell me what to treat the tap water with.

Thanks in advance, my final Q's i think before its go time :mf_dribble:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

When there's lots of ways to do things, means there's no one "best" way to do it, and many will work  

For misting, RO will help prevent lime scale build up in the nozzles. DI is better than tap water for that reason, RO better than DI.

Nothing with permeable membranes should be kept in RO, ie nothing living. RO strips things of minerals and electrolytes as it's so pure. I've seen people keeping tadpoles in RO... and then say "I just chuck a leaf in there for tanins first ", well fine... then it's not RO! It's had some minerals replaced by the leaf... pure RO isn't supportive of life!



I've never actually kept darts (yet), so those answers are just as they are, not dart-frog related per se.


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

Agree with all of the above! All I do is for tads is RO HOWEVER I had some peat balls left over from my discus set up used for setting the soft water ph of discus requirements and seen as they roughly come from the same area our darts would in the wild and prob being the same pools of water I thought hey ho ......... So far I have only bred tri colour darts and every single one has grown !
I am not to happy with plant,I only only use RO DI in my mist set up so I blame poor plant growth on this, I may start the odd hand spray of spring water or organic feed (bio bizz from those tomato/chilli growing shops) for better results.


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## kevchandler (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi I use asda's own brand bottled water. I also clean all misting nozzles on a 3 monthly basis. I also use the same water for my tadpoles however I let the water stand for 24 hour's prior to adding a small piece of almond leaf. The leaf will release tannings into the water which have aniti fungal properties I've had great success in rasing many tadpoles into healthy froglets this way..im sure others will add there own method's but this works for me..


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## darrensimps (Aug 16, 2009)

I simply use rain water that i catch I. My water butt from the roof, filter it out to remove any debris, used to use old tap water but changed to rain water when I left my flat.


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## Lukethegecko (Feb 25, 2010)

i simply use treated tap water... but then again i dont spray my viv (i have a damp substrate and alot of plants and leaves on the floor for the humidity) and my darts are doing well ^^ in fact they both have been trilling and for such little frogs they are loud!!!


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

I see lots of people use RO water which is more saturated with salts and oxygen then the distilled water and DI water. Do you need the oxygen or will the even purer DI water be ok. Hubby is a window cleaner and all his water goes through the DI vessels to give him pure water i can steal for my froggies  

I'm thinking maybe running the mistking with DI water, occasionally hand spraying with spring water like Terry suggested. The same water for tads but ive read for tads 5 gallons of RO or DI water, mixed 35 mls of a wild almond leaf extract called Atison's Betta SPA, then a small oak leaf and some java moss. How's this sound?

With the leaves is it old dried leaves you use?


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## plasma234 (Feb 27, 2013)

I read quite a bit into this myself. RO seems to get majority vote for misting as it doesn't produce white stains on glass and stops limescale on your nozzles. Then it seems there are several schools of thoughts for raising tads. I would ask someone on here who is successfully raising them and duplicate as close as possible. 

One thing I did read is do not use britta filtered water as it DOES NOT remove chloramines. Your water company may not add this, but I would go better safe than sorry.


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## frogfreak (Jul 28, 2012)

sammyp said:


> I see lots of people use RO water which is more saturated with salts and oxygen then the distilled water and DI water. Do you need the oxygen or will the even purer DI water be ok. Hubby is a window cleaner and all his water goes through the DI vessels to give him pure water i can steal for my froggies
> 
> I'm thinking maybe running the mistking with DI water, occasionally hand spraying with spring water like Terry suggested. The same water for tads but ive read for tads 5 gallons of RO or DI water, mixed 35 mls of a wild almond leaf extract called Atison's Betta SPA, then a small oak leaf and some java moss. How's this sound?
> 
> With the leaves is it old dried leaves you use?


What you have in mind should work fine IMO. The leaves are dried. I also add RO Rite to by tad water as well as Black water extract, which is almond leaf extract. 

Kent Marine » R/O Right | Products


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

i use tap for everything - tads/misting/water bowls etc.

cornish tap water is epic though!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

As Ash and Terry mentioned, RO is fine for misting, but shouldn't be used for standing water for frogs or other animals with permiable skins- the higher solution of salts in their bodies causes them to absorb too much water, causing water retention and kidney damage- in the long run 'pure' water will kill them. For pools and water bowls, use rainwater (*if* your rainwater is especially clean!), bottled water or tapwater treated with a water conditioner as available in any aquarists shop.

EDIT: Or, if you are as lucky as J, use Cornish tapwater, LOL!


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

I used to use conditioned tap water for raising my tads but i did a test using non treated tap water and they came out perfect so havent bothered anymore.

Rainwater is ideal really.


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sammy how simple is it to just get hold of a drinking water dispenser bottle and add conditioner to tap water.
Let it sit for 24 hours and your good to go.
No messing around.
It will do for misting and for tadpoles as is.


Mike


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Don't use DI or distilled, they're too pure.

I use RO for misting with, and HMA filtered water for any standing water, including for tadpoles. If you want info about HMA, google heavy metal axe and this will explain it better than I can.

I'm going to leave it at that, as discussions as to water ALWAYS lead to big arguments.

Ade


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

Here is my problem RO unit takes the water through the filters and traps almost all of the metals and such. DI also does the same but by running water through resin which exchanges it all. Now usually people use RO and it takes their water down to a certain amount of ppm and if they want it pure they use DI vesells to "polish" the water to remove all final things.

Now the water in birmingham can be up to 200ppm and RO might take this down to about 20PPm. My water is often around 56ppm out the tap so RO would take it right down to as if i had used a DI anyway. So i dont see the logic in saying no DI water when using RO on my water will give me DI quality pure water.

Me thinks i will go with the conditioning tap water. Seeing as it hurts my brain the least :mf_dribble: ~Just curious what test you did on your water J? Devon water may just be as good, though your clotted cream will never beat ours! :no1:

So is something like exo terra Aquatize a good product to use? Seeing as my tap water is nice and soft and taste better than evian anyway,:lol2:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

sammyp said:


> Just curious what test you did on your water J? Devon water may just be as good, though your clotted cream will never beat ours! :no1:


:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

sammyp said:


> Here is my problem RO unit takes the water through the filters and traps almost all of the metals and such. DI also does the same but by running water through resin which exchanges it all. Now usually people use RO and it takes their water down to a certain amount of ppm and if they want it pure they use DI vesells to "polish" the water to remove all final things.
> 
> Now the water in birmingham can be up to 200ppm and RO might take this down to about 20PPm. My water is often around 56ppm out the tap so RO would take it right down to as if i had used a DI anyway. So i dont see the logic in saying no DI water when using RO on my water will give me DI quality pure water.
> 
> ...


If your water is 56ppm out of the tap, then you don't need to use an RO, you just need a HMA. HMA REMOVES the garbage found in tap water (particles, chlorine etc etc) without removing the good stuff. Tap water treatments don't remove this stuff, they just bind them chemically. They don't do anything for stuff like suspended particulates either. An RO wont give you DI pure water though even on water with a low ppm, it's not quite as simple as that as RO membranes aren't that efficient (you'd just have a membrane that lasted a LONG time before it needed replacing. lol), where DI resin is VERY efficient. You really just don't need an RO on water that soft though as the main reason to use an RO is to soften the water in order to extend the life of your nozzles and pump.

Putting things into context though, I live in Wolverhampton, the water going into the RO has a TDS of 365ppm, the water from my RO has a TDS of 25ppm. It's liquid rock, with added particles of rust and various nasty chemicals and hormones. I recently replaced all my prefilters and RO membrane etc. The 5 micron prefilters looked like this:-










The water left behind in the pod looked like this:-










To give you something to compare with, this is the brand new sediment prefilter:-










You can perhaps better understand now why I don't just use a tap water treatment. :lol2: That said, some parts of the country have much much nicer, cleaner, water, whilst other parts (Stafford for example) have even worst water out of the tap than mine.:gasp:

Ade


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

but cornish water tastes foul lol. i did a little research, south west water dont add fluoride, and apart from one area of devon, the water is sof as :censor: lol

btw how do you make a proper cream tea ?


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## Cornish-J (Sep 4, 2011)

sammyp said:


> Just curious what test you did on your water J? Devon water may just be as good, though your clotted cream will never beat ours!


I'll be honest, the only test i did was use it and see what happens...not very scientific granted but i've been using standard tap water in my mist system since i had it, just shy of 2 years. No blocked nozzles etc.
Been using it with the tads since the end of last years breeding cycle and got plenty of success.


DSC_0144 by .JayD., on Flickr

Oh btw ... dont be ridiculous .. cornish clotted cream, pastys, tap water .. it's all better down here!! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

But Ade, i only have my kitchen sink downstairs and i cant fit up one of these HMA filters very easily ....sad times....so now im back to having no idea what to do. If i cant fit a HMA or an RO but cant use DI and conditioner wont work....be taking back all those wishes the rain would stop then maybe and hope for some floods. Is spring water my best bet then? 

You win on pasties but our cream is far superior, now onto more serious things.

Cream tea
Make a nice cup of tea, we use twinings cos i like posh stuff, it sits nect to the tesco value beans LOL.

Then take all butter scones. Clotted cream on top, then a dollop of strawberry jam. Dont listen to any of these cornish people that tell you to do jam first its just because they dont have our co-ordination skills to balance jam ontop of cream without getting into a mess. :lol2:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sammy why don`t you just try tap water and conditioner and see for yourself ?
If water conditioner doesn`t work then why do millions of fish keepers around the world use it ?
It might not be perfect but it`s better than nothing when you cant have filters.
As Ade says the argument will rage on but if your that worried about your frogs then go get some conditioner or buy a filter system.
One or the other will work.
Not using anything puts your animals at risk.

Mike


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

Good point mike. The two issues are clogging of nozzles and white glass and frogs skin. The conditioner removes anything that will clog the nozzles and removes metal trace and calcium so wont hurt the frogs either. So i think i will just use tap water, which mine is quite clean anyway then a conditioner and see what results we get. Thanks for all the advice guys


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## fatlad69 (Oct 22, 2009)

I either use bottled water or tap water conditioned with aquatize. I have been keeping darts for over 10 years and never had a problem.

Adam


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Lots of different answers and everyone seems to be keeping them with not too many problems.No one yet has mentioned rainwater too.

Sammy you will find that there are more myths and superstitions with Dartfrogs than any other amphibian. :2thumb:


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## frogman955 (Feb 7, 2010)

Sammy I`m using 2 different types of nozzle here for my vivs.
One type (white) has on several occasions clogged but are normally easily cleaned.
I bought black non drip nozzles from Dartfrog which I`ve been using for 18 months and have not yet had to clean them.
As for cleaning any crap out of the water your using, I take it that you ARE using a filter between your pump and water container.

Mike


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## DrNick (Sep 20, 2012)

colinm said:


> No one yet has mentioned rainwater too.


I've used bottled water, tap water (treated and un-treated) and rainwater over the years. All have been fine. We're lucky in the North East that the tap water is pretty good, but we still have the calcium issues.

I moved to rainwater a couple of years ago purely due to the volume I was using, but now I would never go back. It's free, it's as pure as need be and in the UK we have an infinite supply of it! Rain that falls in the city is no different to rain that falls elsewhere. Unless you have a nuclear waste storage facility on your roof, I would always suggest rainwater collection as the way to go!

Nick

(Does that work for you Colin? ;-))


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

colinm said:


> Lots of different answers and everyone seems to be keeping them with not too many problems.No one yet has mentioned rainwater too.
> 
> Sammy you will find that there are more myths and superstitions with Dartfrogs than any other amphibian. :2thumb:


There ya go then Colin I use rainwater,:2thumb:.Sammy,it's your choice see how you get on with what the guys are recommending,if things go well you have your method,if not then get that downpipe sorted of the roof to a couple of water butts and try some of the free stuff. I have a very basic filter system in our water butts mainly taking out bits,but with a carbon filter included. Plus my system allows me to wait untill it has been raining for a good while before I actually harvest anything. I know of one case in Devon, as it happens, where a switch to rainwater led to a total stop in sls,that the guy was having problems with. That was the only thing that changed, in his regime.I can't remember what the guy was using previously though unfortunately.
Good luck what ever way you go 


Stu


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

> I take it that you ARE using a filter between your pump and water container.


I have not even got frogs yet *wipes tears* something called m.o.t stole my frog money! I was going to get a Mistking but i have not looked into the actual bucket +filter bit i would be coming back here to find out how to put the thing together and what to do with the water container and filter stuff. Anyone fancy telling me now? I'm just collecting a very big word document filled with all the info from here and other places, the last thing i want is to have some beautiful frogs that i kill because i've been a dumbass about something:blush:

I'm going to go with Adam's technique first and see how we get on with the aquatize. If my nozzles get clogged would something like white vinegar be a good cleaner for them then a good soak and rinse?

Thanks Nick and Stu, Hubby's been interested in harvesting rainwater for his window cleaning so i'll test out the aquatize and if the frogs seem affected or tads are suffering then i will look into rainwater. That is until i win the lottery and have a giant frog mansion room built with an RO system and all the trimmings. :flrt:


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I think that you will find that fishkeepers(for obvious reasons) usually go into the water conditioning more than people who keep frogs and toads.Over the years I have used all kinds of different types of water and the only time that I have been able to pinpoint problems is when I used fresh untreated tapwater with tadpoles.


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

So to add some more fuel to the fire.

I have a RO DI because I had a marine tank also.
I have been thinking about moving this on in favour of a HMA filter as I no longer have my marine.

My question is what does the HMA leave behind that a RO DI takes out.

Would the HMA be ok for the pump and nozzles

Would the HMA leave enough goodness for the plant growth, sod all growth really with RO DI on my plants.

I just don't want the streaky glass and not to keen on just binding up the chemicals with a tap safe product.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sammyp said:


> I have not even got frogs yet *wipes tears* something called m.o.t stole my frog money! I was going to get a Mistking but i have not looked into the actual bucket +filter bit i would be coming back here to find out how to put the thing together and what to do with the water container and filter stuff. Anyone fancy telling me now? I'm just collecting a very big word document filled with all the info from here and other places, the last thing i want is to have some beautiful frogs that i kill because i've been a dumbass about something:blush:
> 
> I'm going to go with Adam's technique first and see how we get on with the aquatize. If my nozzles get clogged would something like white vinegar be a good cleaner for them then a good soak and rinse?
> 
> Thanks Nick and Stu, Hubby's been interested in harvesting rainwater for his window cleaning so i'll test out the aquatize and if the frogs seem affected or tads are suffering then i will look into rainwater. That is until i win the lottery and have a giant frog mansion room built with an RO system and all the trimmings. :flrt:


Ahh mate,but you've no need for an RO and the trimmings when you win the lottery,save that dosh for a nice gouchi handbag or something such like, there is water for free water that rears tad after tad after.... so yeah get hubby onit save some pennies oh and try it oneday when ya have a mo. I must dash I'm using all that free water to set up new springtail cultures and half a dozen kid growout tubs. Oh yeah speaking of bucks,our water bill for umpteen frogs, alot of our food for the last 6 months was erm £18,damn I love being metered!! Trust me it doesn't rain much here either,not compared to the SW ,I grew up down there

Goodluck mate you make me smile,:2thumb: 

Stu


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

Rather than start a new thread i will ask here. I was bothering Stu but i think he's gone to bed :whistling2:

Best tank sizes for the following please, if kept in pairs. Hoping they all fall into the 40x40 or 40wx60h category, need to know before i start anything really as this is my one day wish list.

Tincts Citronella
Pums, bri bri or nancy
Tri colours
R. immitator
Leucs
Azures
Auratus

Thanks in advance


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

*cought* the second i posted this got a mail from Stu, guess you aren't asleep :whistling2:


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sammyp said:


> *cought* the second i posted this got a mail from Stu, guess you aren't asleep :whistling2:


No mate:lol2: I've been doing froggy chores and posting while I wait for the microwaving to finish, or the charcoal to boil you'll learn:2thumb:,then dashing off then writing abit more.Sam women aren't the only one's who can multitask,it's hard for me to say but drummers can do it too:Na_Na_Na_Na: But yeah I am nearly asleep :lol2: I need tea first though:gasp:

:2thumb:

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Tincs and auratus I like to keep in 60x40x40cm vivs, although smaller auratus you can get by with a 40cm cube.

Leucs, well I'd say for a pair then a 50x40x40 would be a good start size. That set I keep my 7 in a 100x47x50cm.:lol2:

Bribri, I have a trio in a 40x60x40 but would recommend a 40x40x50/60 really (tall) as it's hard catching baby frogs in a 60cm deep viv. They're also one of the bigger pums. Bribri are a perfect first pum too, as the young take mels pretty much as soon as they are out of water, and within a month can manage hydei! They're very very fast growing. They're easily obtained too, heck my trio breed quite regularly, I have 3 youngsters in with my adults right now even. :2thumb:

Never kept tricolors or imitators so wont even try to advise for them.

Terry, HMA WON'T prevent nozzle blocking or white deposits on the glass, as the hardness causing metal salts (calcium, magnesium etc) aren't removed, hence it doesn't effect pH or hardness. It does remove heavy metals hence the name, pesticides, hormones, tiny particles etc etc, for a yearly cost of around £18 for new cartridges, and no waste water produced.

Ade


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

Ok mate, I ideally only want one filter if you were in my position what would you do?

Stick with the RO DI for sprayer and hand spray with bottled for the plants ? 

Or just go HMA and clean the glass down and nozzles as needed.


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

OK, the room will be built to house 6 vivs all at 40x40x60 high. (21 gallons) Seems like all the frogs will be happy then. After some research i have come up with this.

Tincts Citronella (pair)

Pums, bri bri (pair, possibly trio, should pums be male heavy trios like leucs?)

Tri colours ( group of 5, 3:2 with lots of high perches for the boys to call)

R. immitator (pair, with plenty of broms, read they can be housed in smaller but plan on heavy planting high with some "tree trunks" for them to scale up to the broms like i've just watched Mr Attenborough tell me about LOL)

Leucs (pair or 2:1 trio all depends if i can find an adult pair at the time or buy 3 juvies and wait and watch)

Azureus (pair? but same as leucs, can i keep 3 juives together till i can sex them? Then if its a male heavy trio keep it in the 60 high or split if i've got too many females)

Auratus (same as leucs and azureus)

Whaddythink?

And BTW have you seen the prices of film canisters in ebay! I wandered past a photo developing place today in Exeter and asked if they sold them. 20 pots all for a donation in their air ambulance tin. Thankyouverymuch :2thumb:


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## terryTHEfrog (Oct 21, 2012)

good pointer for the film canisters !!!!

you'll soon want more viv, i had one then within 8 months now theres atleast 10 lol

some guys with more knowledge can help you out with ratios and dominance

i think pums is opposite though on ratios. some do better as plain pairs as opposed to groups.

taller vivs for you pums and imitators 60 high shoukld be ok 

ive got loads on tri for sale should you need them and theres no one closer lol


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Tincs, leucs and auratus - wide would be better rather than tall.

Pums - Do ok in female heavy trios if you have a big enough viv, opposite of tincs. The females wrestle each other but don't kill each other, so long as there is enough space, cover etc. Don't keep more than one pum male, one will kill the other.

Leucs and auratus do ok in mixed sex groups ratio doesn't matter, at most you get squabling and egg eating. Tincs male heavy trios or pairs are best, females will kill each other. Oh, and azureas are a tinc, so same guidance applies.

Ade


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

post edit as i've recomposed myself 

Its all good, i can now fit 8 tanks into my room. YAY with 4 tanks up the top for 60 L for leucs, tincts, azureus and auratus. Bottom tanks can have 4 at 60 H for ims, tri's and pums. Plus one spare tank space for something at a later stage. I would love to take some tris off you but i wont be ready for frogs for a while  Maybe next batch ey? Though I have been in contact with Richie who lives up the hill and across the water for when i am ready.


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sammyp said:


> Huff
> 
> hmmm. *gets her tape measure back out* I only have space for 6 tanks if they are 40 wide so if i just did leucs, auratus and tincts, azureus. I can have four 60 longs. 4 tanks  But I want 6....want...need? My beautiful leucs....*mutters to self*
> 
> ...


Sam,depth mate,go deeper,Ade(mate correct me if I'm wrong,but I'm sure you have that viv) is the only guy I know who had a 40 wide but 60 deep(front to back),so he is whom i'd ask about how easy it is to work in.We have some 60 deep but they are also 60 wide,only 40 high,we have 5 auratus living very happily in one of those,the other will have azzies,when i find the right fella for one singularly fussy lady called Shaz:bash:. look what's the biggy if the vivs come into a room 8"(20cm) more,you won't notice it.The frogs will notice they have more floor space though,that's what he's driving at for leucs tincs etc,they'll all use 60 high whatever species,some just need floor space,we all see it every day,it isn't so evident until one keeps them.

Stu


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Aye Stu, sometimes you have to think outside of the box:-










Given you plan to get your frogs etc from Richie anyway Sam, I am surprised that he didn't suggest this? After all, he built that viv.

Ade


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

Its ok Stu, the hubby (also named stu) just explained inches and centimetres to me :whistling2: might have misread them. Anywho, im sketching (im the arty one he's the buildery one :2thumb the plans for him to work from later, just checking out my bulb lengths. An uncle we never met passed away and left us some money, dont think its loads but have to wait and see might be my seed money  Can give all my floor dwellers 60 long now. But now im thinking leucs, auratus 2:1 trios. Azzies Tincts, Pums, imms in pairs. Then my 4:2 tri's.

Lovely need a cuppa now.


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

Well i didnt go into details with richie, more like will you meet me in bristol? With frogs obviously not for coffee. Well if he wants to buy coffee he'd be welcome to. But looks like i'll be taking the toll bridge, he best have good tea making facilities. :lol2:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

If it helps, a 24watt T5HO is 60cms long, a 39 watt is 90cms long and a 54 watt is 115cm roughly. Don't be scared to use longer tubes over multiple vivs, and don't neglect the reflectors either.

Ade


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Ade, will use longer ones to do two tanks at a time, found a good site that will deliver 54W ones that are 118cm for two 60's. Going for arcadia t5s, freshwater pro and D3 6%. Know about them reflectors as the bearded dragon has one


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

sammyp said:


> Its ok Stu, the hubby (also named stu) just explained inches and centimetres to me :whistling2: might have misread them. Anywho, im sketching (im the arty one he's the buildery one :2thumb the plans for him to work from later, just checking out my bulb lengths. An uncle we never met passed away and left us some money, dont think its loads but have to wait and see might be my seed money  Can give all my floor dwellers 60 long now. But now im thinking leucs, auratus 2:1 trios. Azzies Tincts, Pums, imms in pairs. Then my 4:2 tri's.
> 
> Lovely need a cuppa now.


Ade thanks :2thumb: Sam although these vivs do tend to come in "standard" sizes,stop and ponder awhile what this depth thing really means for our frogs,in their tiny glass box giving them a slightly deeper viv,really is not noticed by us,but 20cm on a 40cm deep viv,means they get an extra 1/3 area in which to live,maybe this sounds patronising it isn't meant that way,it's just so damn obvious folks overlook it. Oh and be aware that young darts are not easily sexed,

Stu


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

I'll have to have a think on it stu, im using kitchen worktop as the main shelf for the leucs/azzie etc and its 60 deep. So while they would fit, with 40 deep tanks it means the viv's are a look, dont touch set up for the kids. Though they would be taught to respect the tanks and the frogs the littleun is not yet 2 so he can't be expected to be perfect. Have to weigh up whether the leucs will be better with 40 deep and no dinky hands knocking on their door or 60 deep with them. With the young darts and pairs etc, i would either wait till i could seek out some pairs, yes with pums and imms thats a lot easier to source than leucs. So with them i may have to go for trio of juvies and wait till they can be sexed then alter the tank mates by splitting/selling.trading what's spare in there. Dartfrog.co.uk has loads of frogs up today, drooling at the possibilities but i wont be rushing into attaining the frogs, much as i would like to.

Noticed dartfrog is selling a 2:1 trio of Bri Bri, surely the males will fight? Thanks for all the info and advice, keep it coming :notworthy:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

Leucs are easy to source. Stu, Mike and myself all breed them, and one of us always has some with them at BAKS meetings. 

Male bribri wont just fight, they fight to the death! Some folks get away with groups of males in very big vivs, but folks who try it in small vivs sooner or later find that males start vanishing to the stress of constant fights. It's just not worth it when a female heavy trio works so well. With how easy bribri are to obtain anyway, the best route is to buy a small group (I usually say 3) of young unsexed ones and hope for at least a male and a female, if you get lucky you get a 2nd female too, worst case scenario you have a spare male which you then need to sell on or swap for a female. Young pums are a fair bit cheaper than sexed ones, I usually sell young bribri myself for about £50 each. That's the thing, young frogs from pure hobbyists (as opposed to traders who have overheads to cover, and hobbyists to pay. lol) are usually considerably less expensive.

Leucs, ratio really doesn't matter overly. Yes females will eat each others eggs sometimes, but if you make sure to check regularly for eggs this isn't an issue. My 7 for example only 1 is a known male, and at least 3 are known females. lol They squabble a bit, but that's just establishing the pecking order. Pretty certain that auratus are the same, eg. my Ancon Hill are in a female heavy trio whilst my 3 Columbian are unsexed, as are my 4 microspots and 4 super blues. Unless you see them calling leucs and auratus are pretty difficult to sex.

On the topic of viv depth, how about a compromise? Go for 50cm deep ones, that way you still have an extra 10cms of depth to play with, but you also have 10cms left from the front of the viv to the edge of the worktop. I funnily enough own a viv that is a 50x50x40 as that particularly rack only has 50cm deep shelves. lol










If you have any problems getting to Richie to collect vivs, there is a chap in Gloucestor who builds vivs who will deliver for the cost of his fuel, with the viv guaranteed until he has put it down safely in your home.  Home - DMS Vivaria

Ade


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

So now we have the lid on the water issue. I need to open another can of worms :blush: 

QT of frogs.
How many do it, how many dont. Those that do care to share your set ups and rough QT times?

I was thinking that as these will be my first darts and im hoping to get them from Richie or maybe J? Maybe Ade if he would meet me in Gloucester  Stu you are miles away even though your leucs are beautiful  lol Anyway you see what i mean, someone i know who keeps and breeds their frogs well, That i would not QT them as there are no other frogs in the room. But if i were to add a frog into a tank that already had frogs then to QT it for the 30-45 day period im reading about. I may be completely wrong in this so thoughts and opinions?


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## sammyp (Jun 8, 2012)

Wait Stu are you near Evesham? I'be busy google mapping you all. I'm not a stalker, well maybe, but i'm really stalking your frogs :mf_dribble:


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 2, 2010)

The answer from me on QT is, it depends on where the frogs come from. For example my pums although captive farmed (allegedly) were quarantined by Richie before I got them from him, so no I didn't QT.

It also depends on the species/morph. If it's one that is highly stressed by change, it would go straight into it's final viv, as adding another step where things are changed is one more risk of losing the frogs.

If I am buying cb frogs from a known breeder who I trust etc, I'm unlikely to QT, UNLESS it's a very shy species (eg. auratus) as I have started QT'ing these so that I at least know they are alive.

However IF I am getting frogs to go into the same viv as frogs I already have, regardless of the other factors I WOULD QT them. Purely because I don't want to take any risk with members of my existing collection, regardless of how small the risk is. I'd also QT any frogs bought from an unknown source, UNLESS they were going into a brand new viv and I was willing to rip it all out and sterilise the viv if the need arose. To be honest, normally I am quite willing to destroy the decor, plants etc.

The thing is though, most of the folks that do QT don't do it properly anyway. Their QT tubs are usually kept in the same room as their collection for example. Those who QT properly keep their QT facilities in a different room, and NEVER share equipment even between their QT tubs, and know to wash their hands when they have been into the QT tubs etc etc.

You are right though, it is a can of worms, and tends to seriously polarise opinions. So you are about to get some very very different opinions presented to you as facts. The only real fact though is that it's your choice to make.

Ade


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

We are about 2 1/2 hours from Torbay on a good day Sammy my family lives there. hmm stalkers join the club:lol2:

QT, I do keep all new frogs separate and try to isolate them,but at this time they do live in the same room and I make best efforts to always isolate them wash hands etc.But no it's not the perfect QT.I keep them separate for 3 months or so.In the past i've had problems with tincs in tubs and so have put them straight in viv,but I think i've got that sorted now,big leaved plants seem to make them settle better. I have one tinc in QT now all fine. I don't do all the fecals at this time,but I yearn to know more about frogs health So I have had some testing done.My veiws are by no means fixed in stone about treatment,it's almost another debate,but as a collection grows so do the fears about bringing something nasty in. Ade mentioned auratus they bring in the other side of QT for me,it's just easier to monitor new frogs in a QT tub than a viv and means less stress for both a new keeper and the frogs as when one hasn't seen a new frog in viv for 3 weeks the temptation to look disturb and stress them is hard to resist. 
Sammy, one's point of view changes as one learns, I started by putting frogs straight in viv,now I would advocate any new frogs to be isolated,even if they came from me. If frogs go straight to viv and something happens unless one has had all the fecals done then one doesn't even know if there is something wrong with the viv or the frogs. Even a non perfect QT like I do must help remove some of the risks of a pathogen getting into a collection.I'm very aware it's less than perfect,it's hard when we have only one room to work this through in 
Sammy the american have a clear protocol for QT involving 3 clean fecals as some paracites don't show/shed in each examination. they them treat according to what is found, some folks just treat every new frog that enters their collection,some don't treat anything,all this is by no means cut and dried,there are even arguments about some paracites being beneficial so this is tricky to evaluate. So, I agree with Ade completely that this is your choice!! I'll say this though I think moving frogs is a big deal to them,how the new keeper handles those first few weeks is very important in my opinion. That said most dart frogs are pretty resilient given the right care, it's when they get stressed that they are more at risk than at any other time 

Stu


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