# people in the UK who own venomous snakes



## Pinksnakes (Sep 30, 2007)

Does your local hospital carry anti-venin?

Is there some protocol set up alongside your DWA to deal with this as quick as possible if it ever happens

I was just wondering what has to be done in order to prepare for the worst case scenario

Can you buy your own anti-venin and be trained to apply the right dose?

What the hell happens here


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## shaun (Apr 28, 2007)

Thats what i want to know! I gess just dont get bit. :no1:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

not all hospitals carry AV although alot of antivenom can be couriered to you pretty quickly, some zoos keep it for the species they keep also, liverpool school of tropical medicine and London poisons unit stock it.

Keeping it yourself would be very costly vials of it are expensive and you can need 20+ vials, alot more in extreme cases, plus it only has a shelf life of about 3 years, so you would have to keep spending thousands of pounds on it.


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## sami (Oct 23, 2006)

almost no hospitals keep AV, generally it is couriered to you from a major hospital and/or university. In most cases the closest is liverpool.

AV has a very short shelf life (allrthough I am reading lots of things, mainly from US and australian keepers that it is effective much past it. not something i'd like to mess with though)

It's very expensive, dangerous to self medicate with so stocking it yourself isn't the ideal solution unless you're dealing with something that requires immediate intervention. 

Most hospitals will have no protocols in place at all and no staff with experience of it. It's upto the keeper to provide such a protocol to the hospital, ideally it needs to be with you from the moment you get bitten.

Mason


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## Pinksnakes (Sep 30, 2007)

thanks for those replies, they make sense. I assumed that it would be a bad idea to self veninate but i had no clue how nurses or Drs would deal with a private keeper being rushed to A&E with a viper bite or something also because considering being bitten then the seconds it takes to to call ambulance then the 8 minutes it takes for them to get there then the 5 minutes it takes them to get you to the hospital then the seconds for the emergency Drs to realise they have no fking idea wtf to do except call poison control then how ever long it takes them to get the anti venom to you including figuring out the type of anti venom to give you, how much etc. All that time is going to cause some sort of damage if you can avoid death anyway.


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## lukendaniel (Jan 10, 2007)

well when a person gets a dwal the hospitals get told all about it so they know there is some one in there area that could get bit 



luke


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

lukendaniel said:


> well when a person gets a dwal the hospitals get told all about it so they know there is some one in there area that could get bit
> 
> 
> 
> luke


only if the person applying tells them, well thats what its like here anyway


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## lee-travis (Jan 10, 2008)

it is normally kept at the school of medicines in liverpool however london also stocks it.


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## Angi (Nov 12, 2005)

It would be far to dangerous to administer yourself, and you would most likely not be in a fit state to do so either. Anti venin can cause an anaphylactic shock and kill you. It can cost thousands of pounds too

A lot of people have protocols, contact numbers etc and research ready to take to hospital with them, along with the label from the snakes viv so they know what snakes has caused the envenomation. It is good to be up to date regarding treatments and keep your evidence in a folder ready to take to hospitals as this may assist the Drs with their treatments, - not a lot of Drs in this country are that keyed up regarding envenomations.


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## mark elliott (Feb 5, 2007)

SiUK said:


> only if the person applying tells them, well thats what its like here anyway


same here so i am led to believe


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## mark elliott (Feb 5, 2007)

i am soon to be applying for my DWAL and am led to believe that only liverpool and london are the two hospitals with av. does anyone else know if this is true


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

mark elliott said:


> i am soon to be applying for my DWAL and am led to believe that only liverpool and london are the two hospitals with av. does anyone else know if this is true


a few zoos also stock certain antivenins too i believe


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

All zoos with venemous collections SHOULD stock it.

I know that for atleast a couple it is part of the requirement for holding venemous. 
In other words, if they have a puff adder they should have SAMIR


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

how much does your zoo in the states stock dan?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

i wish it was mine! lol

From what i could see in the fridge there were 6 viles of each.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

reticulatus said:


> i wish it was mine! lol
> 
> From what i could see in the fridge there were 6 viles of each.


even for the king? a bad bite from that fooker would take more than 6 vials actually a bad bite from any of them has the potential to take more than 6 vials easily.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

You could be looking at well into double figures for any of them.

The idea is not to have in enough stock to solve the problem but to have enough to cover the bite until "venom 1" is able to get to us.


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

reticulatus said:


> i wish it was mine! lol
> 
> From what i could see in the fridge there were 6 viles of each.


you know what i meant, i wish it was yours too (so i could try and ponce a job out of it lol). have you started there yet or is it later in jan you will start?


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

just waiting on insurance, taking an age


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

just because of the job or because your not an american citizen?


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

double post


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

jaysnakeman said:


> just because of the job or because your not an american citizen?


Its for the job but the problem comes because i'm not american. Should be sorted soon though with a bit of luck


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## Scales and Fangs (Mar 22, 2007)

When we got the Western Diamondbacks in the shop, I contacted the local hospital and spoke with the head pharmasist who told me he would look into stocking AV, in the mean time we agreed what actions should be taken in the event of a bite.

He soon came back to me stating that they will not be stocking it as it cost 4K per dose and has a 3 month shelf life.

So....................

Our protocal is that in the event of a bite, dial 999 and explain what has happened and give the species details and current condition of victim, request the fast response paramedics to attend ASAP and request the air ambulance to take the victim to London and ask them to forward warn them about it.


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

yup its proper pricey but 4k wouldn't even touch most bites and i think its 3 year life for cro fab even so they aint gunna stock it for one person


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

Tell ya right now CROFAB doesn't cost £4k per dose!!

The price is $1200 for 10 vials. If you add in shipping it works out at about £100 per dose.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

yeh but 10 vials wouldnt be enough for alot of bites, I believe Ray Hunter had over 30 the other month from the EDB bite


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

SiUK said:


> yeh but 10 vials wouldnt be enough for alot of bites, I believe Ray Hunter had over 30 the other month from the EDB bite


What is it with you and the number of vials?:lol2: Everytime i mention something it's the wrong number with you :lol2:

So, here's a number question for you. What's the average number of vials needed per bite? You can stick the answer in your protocols.


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

just stating common sense


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

and i was stating that the price he was given was wrong.

I'm not sure how it is common sense though, surely that is perspective driven?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

I presumed that by dose they meant total amount they would need to stock.


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## Dan (Jan 11, 2006)

My point is that in that sense there is no way to tell.
You could have a severe bite and need boatloads or a mild bite and not need many.

As a point of interest, the manufacturers of crofab only keep 6 vials in UK stock in case of emergencies. This should tell you that they atleast don't see a requirement to hold large amounts "just incase" someone gets a truly horrific bite.


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## BarryScott (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm very new to this guys - but if they only keep 6 vials of CroFab, do they stock Polyvalent too? Can they be mixed, so an initial dose of the CroFab, but when it becomes clear the envenomation was severe move to the stocked Polyvalent? Are the side effects of the polyvalent really that much worse?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

for north american pitvipers they use crofab polyvalent, the other antivenom thats sometimes used is wyeth which has worse side effects so they tend to use crofab now.


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## Pinksnakes (Sep 30, 2007)

so the moral of this thread to anyone who decides to own venomous animals in the United Kingdom is "Do everything right so you don't get a bite"

By the way could you not use one of those sucker things they are supposed to suck the venom out? Maybe using this will lower the amount of anti venom needed 

ALSO - If you did manage to suck out all the venom wouldn't injecting antivenom be lethal? or even if you thought oh ill inject myself with antivenom and see what it does - thats bad right?


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

those sucker things have been proved practically useless anyway.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

bad bites can use serious doses of a.v. like for some rattler bites they have to almost pump you with crofab..


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

I'll explain how I have prepared for an accidental envenomation from one of my charges.

I have downloaded snake-bite protocols from his site-

Snakebite Protocol

and have had them laminated and put each one in a clear plastic file sleave. 
Now I have a copy of each one and my local Accident and Emergency room in Salisbury also has copys in a file under my name including phone no.s of facilitys in the UK that keep the relevant av for all the species under my care.

In the event of a bite all I do is call for an ambulance and call Salisbury Hospital and tell them which snake I've been bitten by and let them do their job.
When the ambulance staff arrive I hand them the relavant protocol and just let them do their thing : victory:

This is obviously just a precaution and I have no intention of having to use it but I have complete peace of mind knowing it's set-up.

I recently called my A&E dept. and asked them to dig out my file and the nice lady on the phone had it in front of her within 30 seconds so at least I know they haven't forgotten about me!! :no1:


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## Pinksnakes (Sep 30, 2007)

wow thanks trueviper that was really helpful seriously. Although my nearest hospital is Chase Farm and its like one of the worst hospitals in england so like i would still be cautious lol

Actually its so bad last time i was in the A&E i saw a giant cockroach just walking along the side and some old people like died of MRSA


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## BETAULSTER (Dec 14, 2007)

I think its a joke that not more hospitals keep AV! The amount of money it costs for a DWA licence and the increase in life insurance is crazy! I know a fella who was tagged by his copperhead and had to get AV flew in from Liverpool to Belfast!!


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi Mark,
You seem well prepared for a possible accident. I like the way your local hospital is helping you, it is a pity not all hospitals were as helpful.
I looked on your protocol website, it could do with updating the scientific names, also some of the anti-venoms are no longer in use,( Wyeth has been superceeded by Cro-fab for example).
Also, they seem to recommend pressure/immobilisation for all bites.
This is only meant for bites that are mainly neurotoxic in action. It is not recommended for bites that cause significant local swelling.
All the best,
Brian.


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## Pinksnakes (Sep 30, 2007)

I think that DWA's are seen as the owners responsibility hence the lack of funding from the government to make it a requirement for the local hospitals to carry it. I understand why its a requirement for hotter countries to stock antivenin as the venomous animals share their habitat. 

I dunno i think that the hospitals in england carrying antivenin may turn out to be a waste of money 

I think what they should do is maybe train some doctors in coping with venomous bites so at least they know what they're dealing with i mean for god's sake some nurse last year injected the epidural straight into the bloodstream and she died so i dunno about you but i think that "qualified" people we trust our lives with need sorting out before the stocking of antivenin i mean you'd die if they gave you the wrong antivenom just because they have no clue which antivenin to give.


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## mark elliott (Feb 5, 2007)

trueviper said:


> I'll explain how I have prepared for an accidental envenomation from one of my charges.
> 
> I have downloaded snake-bite protocols from his site-
> 
> ...


sounds good to me, thats the way i will play it too, am gonna get my DWAL and go through reptile zone to get my gaboon viper as pete seems shit hot and i believe does everything spot on and that is no way me saying no one else does, im just saying he deff does


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## Lucifus (Aug 30, 2007)

Most Drs don't have a clue when it comes to anything about venom as its not common here. I asked my Dr a question if my medication would react with a emp scorpion sting or chilie rose bite and they just looked at me and went, "wouldn't the bite be bad enough?".


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

tigersnake said:


> Hi Mark,
> You seem well prepared for a possible accident. I like the way your local hospital is helping you, it is a pity not all hospitals were as helpful.
> I looked on your protocol website, it could do with updating the scientific names, also some of the anti-venoms are no longer in use,( Wyeth has been superceeded by Cro-fab for example).
> Also, they seem to recommend pressure/immobilisation for all bites.
> ...


 
Yeah I agree they do need to be up-dated but I was wondering can you recommend another website that I could download protocols from?

Also don't worry I would never let anone apply a tourniquet after a viper bite!
Wouldn't fancy localising venom from a Puff Adder bite :mf_dribble:


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

have you tried toxinology.com mark?


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

Yeah I have. I may have to switch my current protocols to those ones. I shall do some investigating.


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## jaysnakeman (May 10, 2006)

i think chris posted some good links on venom room too mate check them out as well


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## tigersnake (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi Mark,
I think " Toxinology.com" is possibly the best one. You can get individual protocols for each species you keep, and there is not too much information on there to confuse the ED staff with. I think the sooner they realise they need expert advise the better. There is no point giving them pages and pages to read, which will only serve to confuse them.
By the way, the pressure/immobilisation bandage is not a tourniquet ( I expect you know that:blush: ).
All the best,
Brian.


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## trueviper (Jan 13, 2008)

Thanks yeah I'm probably gonna change them. Did I say torniquet? oops I meant preasure bandage :blush:


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