# frogs dying



## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Hi
I purchased 3 whites tree frogs and a anole lizard 2 weeks ago. When I got back from the shop one of the frogs had died and I put that down to the stress of transportation. That night another one of the frogs died and again I put that down to the stress of transportation. This weekend the anole lizard died with obvious neurological problems, writhing and tensing as well as running with no control, he was clearly unwell when he died and it was in no way a normal death. Before this he had no symptoms he infact ate the day before. I have now got the single frog and im at a loss to what to do, do I quarantine it in a separate enclosure and do I have to throw the viv furnishings away. I think the last frog should go to the vets but again no symtoms no problems with it and I fear the vet will just say to wait. Does anyone know of a disease that can be transmitted zoonotically between amphibians and reptiles that present themselves like this. All in all I am a fairly accomplished herp keeper I have all sorts including monitors and snakes but this is my first frog and my first experience of things dying like this. Any help would be much appreciated. 
Thanks kbonnington


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Are you sure that the temperatures are not too high. I don't know of any particular diseases that can be passed from amphibians to reptiles and vice versa.


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## Badgerroy (Mar 16, 2015)

I'd be checking viv temps, what I wash feed/water bowls with,disinfectant, etc. has there been any repairs to the vivs(sealant). New lighting/heating that may be giving of fumes.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

got a few thermometers in there ones on 29-30 up in the basking area the others in the middle and on 25-26. One frog died before it went in there. No repairs but I stuck a hide to the wall with aquarium silocone, which I asked the shop about.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Uvs new, so is the heating


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## soundstounite (Sep 6, 2009)

K welcome all be it under very sad circumstances ! 

First up do everything you can to isolate these guys from the remainder of your collection, disposable gloves alcohol sanitizers care for the other guys first then these new guys afterwards. Be deligent mate seriously so!!!!


My next step would be to contact someone like pinmore animal labs,tests like fecals may tell you what the hell is going on,and will not stress the frog or possibly any surviving anoles. I don't know enough to provide any clue into why both a rep and amphibian should have passed in this way,it might be pure co incidence bad luck what ever rather than the same thing killing both parties,unless, as already been stated there is an environmental factor,but that doesn't grab me as plausable with you having other animals unless it is something related to both individual vivs. I'm half guessing from your post you have an animals room ,or is your collection spread about,which might mean something regarding an environmental factor.

Regarding the silicone, providing it is aquarium safe (no fungicides) and cured out properly,no fumes smelling of venegar,then I can't see that being an issue,but I would be concerned if the silcone was fresh leastways for the frog,I'd ask for Colin's input on whether uncured silicone could possibly harm an anole ,we only keep darts mate,so I can only apply logic to you situation not experience !!

But I personally would be talking to the shop. i'd certainly want to know if the animals were WC at the very least beyond that ,I really wouldn't expect a frog to just die after a journey home,although it genuinely does happen the stress of a move is something I have always thought to be of great concern. If an animal is carrying a parasite burden for example stress can push the animal into a position where the parasite overwhelms it,but one needs a vet or similar' s expertise here to actually diagnose something,not my ramblings.

Sad time mate have a chat with pinmore don't let this put you off amphibians either,but it would be great to know what has happened as this is of concern potentially to the others residing with you,you need to know what you are dealing with if it isn't environmental that is.

take care

Stu


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Hi 
thankyou very much for the advice.
I have just spoken to the shop and it appears that the supplier that the two frogs that died come from have lost all of their frogs too, the one thats left is from a different supplier. As for the anole the guy at the shop believed that he had overheated, which he explained accurately and it fit the bill. He has told me to turn my heating device off and just have the compact uv that I have in there running, do you guys agree? He is going to supplie some more for me.
my room is at 75-80 anyway due to the large monitor tank I have in here.
thanks kbonnington


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

kbonnington said:


> got a few thermometers in there ones on 29-30 up in the basking area the others in the middle and on 25-26. One frog died before it went in there. No repairs but I stuck a hide to the wall with aquarium silocone, which I asked the shop about.


how long ago did you put the silicone in, did you give it at least 48hrs to cure before putting the animals in?

what type of silicone was it?



kbonnington said:


> Hi
> thankyou very much for the advice.
> I have just spoken to the shop and it appears that the supplier that the two frogs that died come from have lost all of their frogs too, the one thats left is from a different supplier. As for the anole the guy at the shop believed that he had overheated, which he explained accurately and it fit the bill. He has told me to turn my heating device off and just have the compact uv that I have in there running, do you guys agree? He is going to supplie some more for me.
> my room is at 75-80 anyway due to the large monitor tank I have in here.
> thanks kbonnington


what kind of heater and thermostat are you using?

I would suggest, given that your room is pretty warm, using a low power halogen flood/reflector lamp (20-30W, frosted glass), to provide a small warm area for the remaining anole(?) if it needs - on a dimmer thermostat

Also how exactly are you measuring the temp? digital or dial thermometer? where is it placed to give you the temp you mentioned earlier? (29-30)

ie is that the temp from a wall mounted thermometer, or is that a temp taking from a basking area under the heater?

If its a wall mounted thermometer, then that 30C is ambient air temp, which is very high


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Ive got a few ways I test the temp, ive got two probes and a temp gun and according to them it was fine. Ive got got a ceramic heater supended over the top with just a normal on off thermostat, the heater was rarely on cos my room is hot im a bit confused to how he did over heat but it fits the way he died. Silocone went in weeks before and its aquarium stuff. I belive it was because he could get higher than I expected and was exposed to a little more heat than I was expecting. Ive turned the heater off and the temps are still the same as I said it was rarely on. Im just going to stick with the uv, temps are fine. 30 was right on the basking spot, 25 else where. The thermostat I have has a built in thermometer as well.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

all sounds fine to me

I would ask the pet shop if any of their other reptiles have died recently, considering that all their frogs died, that points to either a disease (which AFAIK cannot transfer to an Anole) - or, chemical poisoning, which is quite possible, and could kill amphibians and reptiles equally


or, perhaps it was just a sickly Anole, they are imported in large numbers, and lots die long before they get to anyones home; its death may not be related to the frogs at all, just a very unlucky coincidence


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Thats what I was thinking, he was brown the whole time I had him and when I saw it in the pet shop. Means there stresses dont it probably should have avoided it, thanks for the advice guys.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

ah ok, yeah does sound like he was sick and/or suffering from longterm bad husbandry; the fact the shops frogs died aswell raises a flag for me...unless you are confident in the shops ability to care for reptiles (and amphibians), i'd avoid it next time - you can find CB Anoles sometimes, they are not that common, but worth waiting for, as you know almost certainly that they will come from an experienced keeper and will be healthy


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

There pretty good for round here but then again there is a guy down the road that tells people not to use thermostats and to keep there savannah monitors on tissue paper so. What do you think about not using a heating device, the temps were ok today but need peice of mind really, should I just see how it goes? My room aint cold, its like a bloody rainforest most of the time. I was thinking about just testing it through the summer and adding heating if it changes in the winter.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

kbonnington said:


> There pretty good for round here but then again there is a guy down the road that tells people not to use thermostats and to keep there savannah monitors on tissue paper so. What do you think about not using a heating device, the temps were ok today but need peice of mind really, should I just see how it goes? My room aint cold, its like a bloody rainforest most of the time. I was thinking about just testing it through the summer and adding heating if it changes in the winter.


they definitly need a basking spot, 26C/80f is fine for day time ambient temps (i'd aim for 24 myself), but they do need that ~31C basking area aswell - I think using a small, low power halogen flood is the best way to provide that personally

as long as they can access cooler temps when they need, theres no need to switch the heater off - its daft advice tbh, yes if an animal is overheating, for sure, the setup needs to be adjusted...but I dont think that was the case, from what you described it sounds like the anole was in trouble before you got him

keeping Savs on tissue paper should be considered cruelty under the cruelty to animals act


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

So you reckon try setting it lower bout 26, from where the stat is a few inches from the mesh it should make that couple of inches a little higher than the rest and they can climb up to it if they want.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Ill do some adjustments and ill post back on here if I have any problems. It seemed strange to me that over heating would be the cause for his death it wasnt like he was trying to get away from it, a sunny day in florida dosent kill all the anoles and it wasnt that high. From what my thermometers were telling me there was nothing wrong. They would just hide away. Thankyou cloud forest ill sort that out.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

you need a basking spot of ~31C, so that would be the surface tempreture of a branch or something below the heater

ignore the numbers on the thermostat, just use your IR gun to check the nearest basking spot to the heater, and adjust the thermostat according to the surface temp of the branch (or whatever you have in there)....then check the ambient air temps, make sure they arnt to high (should be around ~28C around the basking area), then check your cool end, ideally you would provide a gradient down to 24C; and lower than that at night

If your ambient temps are too high (for eg if the air temp is going above ~30C near the basking area), you need to either raise the basking area slightly closer to the heater so you can use less power, or switch the ceramic for something like a 30-40W halogen flood lamp (frosted glass) and a dimmer stat, that will provide a smaller area of heat and wont heat the air as widley as a ceramic


can you post a picture of the setup?


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

kbonnington said:


> Ill do some adjustments and ill post back on here if I have any problems. It seemed strange to me that over heating would be the cause for his death it wasnt like he was trying to get away from it, a sunny day in florida dosent kill all the anoles and it wasnt that high. From what my thermometers were telling me there was nothing wrong. They would just hide away. Thankyou cloud forest ill sort that out.


yeah this is true, it all depends on which temps you measure, when air temps go above 30C, most reptiles will get into the shade, where it can be 20C or lower out in the wild - if they dont have access to that in captivity, then they can get in trouble, thats why its important to have those low temps

also sometimes people mix up the ambient air temp, and basking temp, if you set the air temp to the recomended basking temp, its usually to hot - but i'm not sure thats what you did tbh...pic of the setup would confirm either way


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

I tryed to post a pic but im not really sure how to do that. Tanks nice and tall loads of places to hide and climb down the bottom is cool. Explain how to attach an image ill get a pic up.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

try tinypic.com - bbcode is provided for forums after you upload, just copy it into yor post


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Tried a few times my tablets not having any of it. No what your talking about though looking for 26-28 around the basking area and 31 directly under it and dont let the rest of the tank go up that high. Make sure there is a few nice cool places for them to go as close to 20 as i can and ambient around the middle to be bout 24 yeh. So ive got a high place and then it tails right off into a nice cool area. Should be ok I think its simular to what im used to but alot finer, for example a bosc basking area (what im used to) should be 130-155 but the area around that should be 110 and tailing off at 85 on the cool side.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Oh and going back on what you said earlier, it should be a crime to keep boscs on tissue, no less than 3 feet of dirt if you ask me


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

If your room is as hot as a jungle I dont think that these species require any extra heating, just good quality lighting such as T5 tubes that will provide some U.V.B. These in themselves will provide some heat. 

I would also be careful of keeping these species together in case the Whites Treefrogs try to eat the Anoles ( certainly when the frogs are fully grown).


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Thats what the guy at the reptile shop said to do, I have sorted the heating this morning so there is a basking spot but the rest of the tank is fine. The guy at the reptile shop said he has kept the species together for years with no problems, if I see them being chased around ill put them in another tank


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

i've never personally kept Anoles without a basking spot of ~31C, except my first lot of anoles 25 years ago, which lived a miserable life with a single incandescent light bulb and a dial thermometer telling me the enclosure was ~25-27C (but tbh everything about my husbandry for them was wrong back then!), since then I always kept them with a basking lamp (and everything else they need like UV, wide gradient etc etc)

which is why i dont personally recomend keeping them without a proper basking spot - but from what I can tell colinm has kept quite a few of them aswell, so I wouldnt discount the idea completly...i think experience plays a key role in playing around with husbandry however, knowing how and what you can do within what limits; aswell as being able to spot problems very early on if they arise, before they become critical


re the frogs eating the anoles, unortunetly i've heard that quite a few times, something to be aware of...perhaps if you provide enough space, and the right kind of decor so that anoles can escape, then maybe its doable (branches thin enough for anoles, but too thin for the frogs, perhaps? never kept tree frogs, so no idea! just guessing...)


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Hi
ive just got two replacement frogs and a anole. One of the frogs is fine and so is the anole but I am a bit worried about one of the frogs. Hes sat at the bottom of the tank since he got here, he has jumped a few times but he doesn't seem to be climbing. Ive tried to offer food as well and there was literally no reaction his eyes didnt widen or anything. Its nightime now and he still isnt moving around, hes breathing but not much else. I think the shop are not handling them properly and I think they have been hurting them when they have put them into the box, I think would explain why there dying in the way they are. Should I be worried? They have only been here since bout 2. I want to add there replacements from the same place I got the others.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

if you are sure your husbandry is all correct, and they have appropriate places to hide when they want to, then the best thing to do is wait and let them settle with plenty of quiet and little disturbance as possible; its a major stress for them, moving home, and I think you are being a little optimistic if you are trying to feed them by putting food in front of them tbh

I wouldnt buy any more from that shop if these ones dont make it


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

Can you post any photos up?


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

CloudForest said:


> if you are sure your husbandry is all correct, and they have appropriate places to hide when they want to, then the best thing to do is wait and let them settle with plenty of quiet and little disturbance as possible; its a major stress for them, moving home, and I think you are being a little optimistic if you are trying to feed them by putting food in front of them tbh
> 
> I wouldnt buy any more from that shop if these ones dont make it


I usually wouldnt of tried feeding them I would have left them alone but the ways these are with food I used it as a test to see if I could get a reaction because I was worried. You are right I just need to wait and see what happens. What worrying me is that it looks very simular to the last one before it died, it was like that the same and then I found it dead in the morning. I am quite experienced not my usual conduct, I think I am over worrying because of what happened before. These are replacements didnt buy them I dnt think ill be going anywhere near that place anymore. I will leave them be and post if I have any problems. I cant post pictures sorry. On a brighter note the ones that look ok are croaking at each other really funny and the anole looks alot healthier than the last one.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

fingers crossed! let us know  i'm sure Colinm can add something helpful if you put a pic up (try tinypic.com if you need an image host website)

are the frogs WC or CB? (sorry i probably asked that already...)


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

CloudForest said:


> fingers crossed! let us know  i'm sure Colinm can add something helpful if you put a pic up (try tinypic.com if you need an image host website)
> 
> are the frogs WC or CB? (sorry i probably asked that already...)


This shop only get in captive bred stuff (I think), they are really good, one of the best ive found and ive been doing it a while. Im not sure why there has so many problems with these frogs they couldnt give me a definitive answere. Ive got a sav from there hes nearly a year now no problems. As much as I would love all the advice I can, my tablet just does not want to use that site (my tablets crap). I really want to get the tank and the frogs up for scrutiny but just wont do it, im going to get a laptop and frisbee this out of my window. Yeh fingers crossed I will definatly post and let you know, you all have been a god send.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Right guys ive got all 3 frog eating behaving normally and a very healthy looking anole thanks again for your help!!:mf_dribble:


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

awsome  look forward to seeing pics eventually!


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

got it to work let me know if if it hasn't. 
This is a pic from about a week ago when there was just the one frog in there, its night time now so I will get a update one on tomorrow.


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