# Need someone who knows syrian genetics please :)



## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

I currently breed winter whites and have bred roborovkis in the past, I recently got my first syrian and I would like to have a litter of syrians, my female is a long haired Dove Tort/Tri colour, what type of male would be best to fit with her to hopefully have a few torts in the litter? Ive tried google and struggles to find much about tort genetics :blush:


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## Marcia (Aug 23, 2009)

Do you know what your females genetics are?


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

All I know is what she is visually, and I dont understand their genetics at all, hence the post :blush:


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## Marcia (Aug 23, 2009)

There is a hamster genes calculator on the net somewhere but if you don't know her genes, it's no good.

This website helps a bit with Syrian hamster genetics. It looks really confusing at first :lol2:
Syrian Hamster Genetics

It took me a while to learn all about gerbil genetics but i got there in the end.

You could try asking a hamster breeder on their thoughts or you could contact a hamster club


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## pigglywiggly (Jul 19, 2008)

maybe p;ost a picture?

theres some info on the hammy club site which might help you, 

Syrian

apparently you should breed her with a solid coloured male, and you`ll get a good mix of colours.

tort is sex linked like cats, hopefully you`ll get some tort girls like mom and yellow boy or two, depending on the dad

and long haired is recessive, you will only get longhairs if you breed her to another angora or a carrier.


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks, I have seen those genetic tables but they confuse the hell out of me lol!

As shes a long haired dove tortie visually that gives her a huge grid to figure out! Assuming shes aapp(dove)ToTo(tort)ll(long haired) plus any genes she may also carry but not show visually, or am I totally wrong already lol?

This is a picture of her 









I am hoping to get a long haired male, but it was what type, ie if i bred her to a long hair male tort would i get torts or just lh doves/bandeds. I did find bits on normal torts x yellow males produced some torts but as shes a dove tort didnt know if this would still occurs, the world of syrian genetics seems very confusing!!


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

you cant get male torts for a start...well you can but they are mega rare and many arent fertile anyway...
if you want more dove torts you want a dove longhaired male. with a female tort dove and a dove male you will get (in theory)
dove males
dove females
dove tort females
and i THINK honey black males but im not sure what happens when aapp genes are mixed with yellow in a male

roughly half of these will be banded too...breeding her to a patterned male is very likely to give eyeless whites so get her a non patterned male


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks ami  I knew about male torts being very rare and generally infertile, which is why I asked, I was assuming the outcome of dove m&f & dove torts may be the case with breeding her to a dove but syrian genetics dont seem as obvious as they should be :Na_Na_Na_Na: Thanks :no1:


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

James_and_Hana said:


> Thanks ami  I knew about male torts being very rare and generally infertile, which is why I asked, I was assuming the outcome of dove m&f & dove torts may be the case with breeding her to a dove but syrian genetics dont seem as obvious as they should be :Na_Na_Na_Na: Thanks :no1:


no problems drop me a pm if u ever need any help
i know most of my genetics with syrians from when i bred them but i cant remember for the life of me what aappTo gives though as aaTo is melanistic black and ppTo is honey im pretty sure its melanistic honey 
your best best for torts is a yellow male with a non yellow female (eg yellow and gold) as it gives all tort females


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks  Im not too fussed about getting torts, I wouldnt go out to buy 2 new syrians to breed to get torts specifically. I just dont seem to seem many torts around, especially dove ones, and as I want to rear a syrian litter I was wondering what male would be best to put with Marley to hopfully get a few more torts. Thanks again


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

James_and_Hana said:


> Thanks  Im not too fussed about getting torts, I wouldnt go out to buy 2 new syrians to breed to get torts specifically. I just dont seem to seem many torts around, especially dove ones, and as I want to rear a syrian litter I was wondering what male would be best to put with Marley to hopfully get a few more torts. Thanks again


no problem
if you got a black longhaired male you would get black tri torts  either way cant wait to see the babies :flrt:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I breed for tort in my litters and i've just started getting decent dove tort and whites.

I do find they are a bit fiesty though, even more so thna black torts, I am having to handle them a lot more than the other babies.
My dove tort and white came from my umbrous black tort and white line.
This line carrying black and cinnie so therefore getting my doves from there.

Are dove tort and white not aappToto???


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

saxon said:


> I breed for tort in my litters and i've just started getting decent dove tort and whites.
> 
> I do find they are a bit fiesty though, even more so thna black torts, I am having to handle them a lot more than the other babies.
> My dove tort and white came from my umbrous black tort and white line.
> ...


that would be dove tort yes


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I thought it was...I'm still trying to grasp genetics even now after two years!!!!!!


I'm doing well with my torts and now I've got my Ds line back I'm working on that as wel again.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

saxon said:


> I thought it was...I'm still trying to grasp genetics even now after two years!!!!!!
> 
> 
> I'm doing well with my torts and now I've got my Ds line back I'm working on that as wel again.


any genetics thingys im not too bad on with syrian colours tho im a bit rusty now im not breeding any more...


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

Someone made a point that breeding her to a banded male will likely produced eyeless whites.
I'd just like to explain the eyeless white gene a little to prevent confusion before i go any further;
The anopthalmic white or eyeless white gene is incompletely dominant effectively and in its hetrozygous form isn't always obvious especially if you are not sure what you are looking at. In its het for it presents in black eyed hamsters as a red glow to the back of the eye when the hamster has light shone in its direction. In cream based colours it will show as a roan animal. in non cream based colours as i said above it will cause that glow to the eyes. the problem arrised when it is present in red eyed non cream animals because the glow is nowhere near as easy to spot. Non cream based colours with a single anopthalmic white gene sometimes get referred to as 'white bellied'. I'd like to dispell this myth as genetically 'white bellied' animals rarely have an excessively white belly and even if they did many non anopthalmic animals can still have white tummies. look at blacks! So the breeding of any hamster is best done with some prior knowledge of its genetic back ground in my opinion.
In its homozygous form in any colour it will present as an eyeless white. I have seen several adult homozygous anopthalmic whites and one of the breeders keeping it made a comment about how these whites are very usefull for breeding roans as they will produce 100% roan babies when put to a cream based colours.

Now on to the dove torts... yellow is dominant so put her to anything cinnamon or black based as she will be aappTotoBaba.
I always prefered to use yellow blacks or honeys for such a breeding as that seemed to produce the nicest litters.
So long as black and cinnamon (yellow isn't nessesary) are present in the fathers you will get a selection of the following:
dove
black
cinnamon
yellow
yellow black
honey
honey black
Non yellow females can also be tort and a percentage will be banded.
a note on honey blacks... in god knows how many tort and yellow breedings I only ever produced a single honey black. statistically it should be more commonly seen that it is but it is very, very rare for some reason. Good luck trying to breed for these!

Regards, 

Kat/Twiglet (using Ally's account and laptop...)


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

I ended up getting a shorthaired dove male to go with her. Syrians have grown on me so much :flrt: Ive always been into dwarfs but Marley made me fall in love with the big softies!!

Saxon, Marley was very skitty at first and with what you said about dove torts you have being less tollerable of handling I was gutted I thought Ive got this one to cuddle and shes not going to let me, but with regular handling shes lovely :flrt: not always keen on being picked up but once shes up she snuggles and is so friendly!!

Could anyone link to me to a genetics page or explain it a bit more? I know Marley is aapptotoll and the boy is aapp but i have no idea how the grids work, an example would be useful :blush:


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

Banded x Banded is safe = no eyeless whites (That's Roans!).

Whoops sorry Ally, didn't notice you got there already 
Whoops again, not Ally but Kat - Hmmm... did you once have a hamster called Squee.....?


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## Ally (Mar 8, 2006)

temeraire said:


> Banded x Banded is safe = no eyeless whites (That's Roans!).
> 
> Whoops sorry Ally, didn't notice you got there already
> Whoops again, not Ally but Kat - Hmmm... did you once have a hamster called Squee.....?


Yup, that's the same Kat!

freewebs.com/abcexotics is her site, there's a bit of genetics stuff on there (click on "domestics")


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

Is this right, this would give me pp -cinnamons, aapp - doves, pp - blacks, aatoto - Yellow blacks, but it doesnt give me aapptoto - dove torts. & we may aswell ignore the longhaired column. 

or completley wrong? If its wrong is it because its colour the color genetics i should be using in the grids? Then coat type and patterns possibilities worked out from there? ie I wont have any longhaired because the boy isnt longhaired, and 50% of the girls are likely to be torties?

Or am i still way off :lol2:










Edit: table didnt copy and paste right​


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

You may get longhaired pups from the the litter. I know I do from SH x LH parents.
My generation history is 6-7 generations now though in some of my hams.

I have a gorgeous satin longhaired dove doe that I'm going to put to my black buck when they are old enough.



Kat,

I still need to get those pics for you of the ones I 'think' may be honey black!!!!! They are too young though so I dont' want to do that just yet. I dont' touch until they are nearly weaned. Then I handle constantly.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

James_and_Hana said:


> Is this right, this would give me pp -cinnamons, aapp - doves, pp - blacks, aatoto - Yellow blacks, but it doesnt give me aapptoto - dove torts. & we may aswell ignore the longhaired column.
> 
> or completley wrong? If its wrong is it because its colour the color genetics i should be using in the grids? Then coat type and patterns possibilities worked out from there? ie I wont have any longhaired because the boy isnt longhaired, and 50% of the girls are likely to be torties?
> 
> ...


it would be ap, ap not aa pp you would put in the boxes if that makes sense. aappToto x aapp would give aapp (male and female) , aappTo (male, only can carry one sex linked gene as its held on the X chromosome, melanistic honey i think) aappToto (female with one yellow gene = tort)

each one would be a 25% chance so eg a litter of eight would be four dove, 2 dove tort, 2 melanistic honey...not that it works like that lol just averages...u may get more m.hs and no torts or all torts and no m.hs


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## JamesJ (Apr 12, 2008)

I thought LH was recessive? Unless the male is a carrier they will only be carriers?

Satin longhaired dove sounds yummy :flrt:

There is a midlands hamster breeder metting/show next sunday very local to me im tempted to go take a peak. But then I will only come home with something :blush:

Edit: Thanks ami  I think I need a genetics for dummys book


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

James_and_Hana said:


> I thought LH was recessive? Unless the male is a carrier they will only be carriers?
> 
> Satin longhaired dove sounds yummy :flrt:
> 
> There is a midlands hamster breeder metting/show next sunday very local to me im tempted to go take a peak. But then I will only come home with something :blush:


it is its possible hes a carrier though..i had a LH pop out of a litter where the sire wasnt longhaired and neither was the mother...and neither were her parents lol


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

James_and_Hana said:


> I thought LH was recessive? Unless the male is a carrier they will only be carriers?
> 
> Satin longhaired dove sounds yummy :flrt:
> 
> ...


ahh it makes sense? i was going to grid it wasnt sure how though lol
its annoying at first but its really easy once you get going


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I would say unless yu know the histroy of sh parent there is a high chance of it being a carrier.

90% of 'pet' hams carry lh somewhere along the line.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

Ally said:


> Yup, that's the same Kat!
> freewebs.com/abcexotics is her site, there's a bit of genetics stuff on there (click on "domestics")


OK... knew Kat longtimeago on hamster forums when I was breeding & showing hams  *waves*


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## Myth (May 22, 2009)

Just thought I'd throw in another link to a helpful genetics site:

Syrian Hamster Genetics


Saxon - my Black must be unusual then as he doesn't carry LH...Neither did my 'pet' cream banded... 
:lol2:

They do pop up now and then though as is a recessive gene, anything recessive has the potential to be carried down through many generations before it shows itself.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I know I'm talking rats now....but I reckon it can happen with hams as well....I've had a litter from a russian blue x russian blue line of 12 generations....I've just got a russian topaz in a litter of four!!!

I know there is topaz 12 generations back, in the doe, but for it to 'pop up' after so long is really unusual. Considering it has to be in both parents backgrounds.

Maybe your black and your pet cream banded are carriers it just hasnt' shown itself yet.
I've had hams that I've only known a short history of and they have not given LH for a few generations but it has popped up eventually. Bred sh x sh along my lines.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

saxon said:


> I know there is topaz 12 generations back, in the doe, but for it to 'pop up' after so long is really unusual. Considering it has to be in both parents backgrounds.


There is a saying: "recessives are forever"! It's very hard to breed out recessives once they're in a line; they can come out at any time.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

temeraire said:


> OK... knew Kat longtimeago on hamster forums when I was breeding & showing hams  *waves*


Hello! skwee was actually my then house mates ham... very cute satin brown eyed cream (extremely unusual) but rather small and only ever used for one mating.
Long haired as pointed out is recessive so from a LH and a short hair it is possible to get up to 25% LH babies and as saxon so rightly mentioned, most pet shop hams will carry longhair. 
Does anyone have a ny decent pics of a honey black they could post up for saxon? The only pic I've got has disapeared some where into the ether of my dead laptop....

Best of luck with your litter ami_j, Keep posting pics for us!

Incidentally, If anyone fancies taking a wonder over to my syrian genetics page and giveing it a once over I'd be greatful... most of it was written during an episode of raging insomnia so probably makes for... interesting reading!

Syrian Genetics

Cheers!

Kat


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I would love to see a pic of f honey black to be honest.
These little devils are still a bit young and evenif they are honeyblack, if it's liek the yellow black babies, the black ticking takes a few weeks to come through properly.

I'm off to get my camera out the car and take pics now if I can get any decent ones.


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## Twiglet (May 6, 2009)

like i said to you before, I found that honey black babies just look kind of crappy at least until they mature... Fun genetically and very useful but not exactly the most stunning of things whilst babies (is that an awful thing to say or what?!?!)

Cant wait for photos!!

Kat


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