# Expedition To Preserve African Venomous Snakes



## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi all a few of us budding young herpetologists in the making are getting together to take an expedition to Africa in 2014 hopefully in all honesty will have the funds to do it next year but either way will be the latest of 2014.

We will be making a documentary on various species of mainly south African venomous viperidae and elapidae species, depending on the funding we can get along side the money we are putting in ourselfs is dependent on whether we can go that bit further and get some more mid to northern venomous snakes in too.

During the trip if all goes to plan we will be able to film as well as start up a conservation project with gps tagging and species counts. We will also be milking to provide centers with more potentially life saving venom to convert into anti-venom along side collecting blood samples from individuals specimens to keep a track of statistics on each animal making sure they're disease free and healthy. If found to be carrying some sort of disease (transferable or not) with the gps we can track them down afterwards and administer antibiotics etc to minimize deaths.

Filming for me is really about getting through the misconception that these animals are nasty, evil killing machines. They like all animals have a built in mechanism called "natural instinct" and they do not like invasion into their personal space hence why so many people get bitten for messing about or standing on them, they can say hey ya git rack off! so they strike out although i do have a sneaky suspicion puff adders do just hate everything! lol but in all seriousness they just have a highly developed defensive nature which should not be taken lightly that's for sure.

Preservation of a venomous snakes and their habitat is a major factor and concern for many of us so its time to take more action and set up more programs to help get an idea as to which species are in decline etc.

Ideally would be good to get into some areas hit heavily by deforestation and start re-planting trees and other plants to start re-building these amazing habitats that are on the brink of decimation.

We have a group on facebook which im afraid is only for members coming only as we can all update it and let everyone know how everything's getting on. 
We also have a donations page on indiegogo, so spread the word and donate if possible even if its a dollar all is worthy to help keep these majestic animals safe.

here are the links guys hope everyone spreads the word and has a good look through : victory:
our page
Expedition for the Preservation of African Venomous Snake | Facebook

our group
Log in | Facebook

and the donations page check them all out 
Expedition To Preserve African Venomous Snakes -- Indiegogo

thought after someone saying should post in here that i would do one in here too.


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

Your plan is very ambitious but slightly naive I suspect. Which species actually need conserving? How is what you intend to do going to help them? Instead of being captured, milked (this is very dangerous and no antivenom producer will want the venom, they already have suppliers), tagged (with what kind of tag?), drained of blood (do you know how to do heart puncture?) and harrased for a camera, the snake is going to be ready to die anyway. They would much rather be left alone or observed from a distance. Venom is very expensive to produce, by milking them you are putting them under great stress and depriving them of a future meal. 

Conservation isn't as simple as finding an area which has suffered from deforestation, and then planting trees. Why have the trees been removed? Why will the trees you plant not be removed? 

Maybe you should do a bit more research about what you intend to do. Is anyone actually qualified to do things you want to do? How do you intend to implant tags? Can you stick a needle into the beating heart of a snake to extract blood? Do you think the snake will benefit from this?

David.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

DavidR said:


> Your plan is very ambitious but slightly naive I suspect. Which species actually need conserving? How is what you intend to do going to help them? Instead of being captured, milked (this is very dangerous and no antivenom producer will want the venom, they already have suppliers), tagged (with what kind of tag?), drained of blood (do you know how to do heart puncture?) and harrased for a camera, the snake is going to be ready to die anyway. They would much rather be left alone or observed from a distance. Venom is very expensive to produce, by milking them you are putting them under great stress and depriving them of a future meal.
> 
> Conservation isn't as simple as finding an area which has suffered from deforestation, and then planting trees. Why have the trees been removed? Why will the trees you plant not be removed?
> 
> ...


first things first mate there are ways to take blood from a snake without piercing the heart ie obtaining blood samples can be taken from the ventral tail vein, the palatine vein or via cardiocentesis (which personally i will not do) i love these animals im not trying to kill them. 
im not stupid and just cos i have not put all of the info down on here does not mean we dont know anything, sorry to sound like im acting like an ass but people seem to think everyone is thick as :censor: and that they are naive and dont plan this out. 

i have been wanting to do this for years for about 10 actually but around 7 years ago i was at my all time highest weight of 32 stone and am now 19 i have a few stone to loose but im getting there with it, do you honestly think i wanna be dropped into africa with a team and not know a thing......i mean really the teams saftey falls on my back and im not going to just be throwing lifes away. 
but cos my name is not this or that im naive, everyone starts somewhere.

im hopefully going to be working with national geographic and other such peoples to determine the outcome of what is the right way to start this project up. we wont be even planting trees on this trip as we will only have around 3 to 5 weeks to film the mini series depending of course on what other funding i may be able to get which will put the project into a longer time frame. we will be trying to work with authorities over there to access where has been hit by deforestation hard and we will be setting up more awareness and i would like to also try and stop it to a degree if we can, its not an over night wayhey job done its my lifes ambition to actually try and do some good for the world im not in it to get rich im in it to know theres still some sort of a world left for my grandkids kids and so on. 

as for tagging a very small micro chip can be placed into the animal and yes all these factors are a stress on the animals but at the same time so is the mentality of oh venomous snake cut its head off which all too many a people do. i have 2 years to fully work out which species need the most attention, and again just over 2 years to find a lab that will accept FREE! venom to work on which could potentially save lifes along with the blood samples. plus the idea is to start getting records of population numbers of many a species to really start trying get a grip of movement patterns an and see if there are some that are on the decline which then can be helped further and have more focus on working with south african specialists to try and ensure their survival. there are many a species i would like to work with.

im also in the process of getting a hold of donald schultz to get some advice from him and we should hopefully have a south African specialist coming with us so please people can we stop being sinnic's im not stupid and not naive im also not going to paraid the animals about for a tv show we are gonna film the animals from a distance as well as get up close for the other stuffs. 
i love these animals but if the odd specimen gets a lil :censor: off for 10 mins of close camera time to help get some of that good old steve irwin positivity behind these animals back then so be it, im not gonna do a steve austin and to be frank he does really mess the animals about and is rough as hell with them which i dont like. 

please do not think iam being a twassact im just sick of people always putting a downer on things i do understand you have valid questions but we can all talk too eachother rather than down to eachother then the world might be a nicer place.
have a good day and i hope i have not offended you matey im just very passionate about this.


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## Tim Hallam (Aug 17, 2010)

will you be preserving them in alcohol or formaldehyde?


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## DaveWillisHertsARG (Jul 8, 2012)

*Project*

If you are serious about this, you might want to align yourself with a univeristy or museum currently doing this research/conservation planning. On which species are you planning to focus? Have you seen Rom Whittaker's similar work in India?


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## Naturally Wild (Jul 1, 2012)

Tim Hallam said:


> will you be preserving them in alcohol or formaldehyde?


you beat me to it!

I actually thought the post was a wind up, if not the guy is naive.


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## nsn89 (Jun 11, 2011)

Tim Hallam said:


> will you be preserving them in alcohol or formaldehyde?





Naturally Wild said:


> you beat me to it!
> 
> I actually thought the post was a wind up, if not the guy is naive.


You do realise the word preserve doesn't strictly mean 'preserve something that is dead'. (If that's what you're getting at)

It can also mean to protect/keep something from harm, or to keep something alive...keeping it from going extinct.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Tim Hallam said:


> will you be preserving them in alcohol or formaldehyde?


lol


DaveWillisHertsARG said:


> If you are serious about this, you might want to align yourself with a univeristy or museum currently doing this research/conservation planning. On which species are you planning to focus? Have you seen Rom Whittaker's similar work in India?


i have been starting to read up on him in the last few days or so cheers for giving a question worth while.


Naturally Wild said:


> you beat me to it!
> 
> I actually thought the post was a wind up, if not the guy is naive.


why am i naive mate, cos i would like to do summut thats not self obsessed and greedy i want to devote my life to saving various species of snakes and lizards that are under threat and also work out and try to stop species even getting to the stage of being threatened so have a good day and if you dont have any advice or actual question please dont reply. 
thanks : victory:


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

nsn89 said:


> You do realise the word preserve doesn't strictly mean 'preserve something that is dead'. (If that's what you're getting at)
> 
> It can also mean to protect/keep something from harm, or to keep something alive...keeping it from going extinct.


exactly thank you my friend someone with a brain u and dave.

oh and dave cheers i will get in contact with some more people it looks like a yes from the specialist living in africa so will know for sure in the next day or so have been chatting with him today and he does not think me or the team are naive funny that lol. have a good night guys


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## DavidR (Mar 19, 2008)

benjaybo said:


> first things first mate there are ways to take blood from a snake without piercing the heart ie obtaining blood samples can be taken from the ventral tail vein, the palatine vein or via cardiocentesis (which personally i will not do) i love these animals im not trying to kill them.


How much blood do you need to obtain? Have you ever tried taking blood from the palatine vein of a venomous snake? How did you avoid coming into contact with the fangs that sit just in front of it? How many times have you taken blood from the tail vein? How much blood do you usually get using this method? How many times do you miss the vein and have to try again? How many times have you taken blood from an irate venomous snake in the field? Why do you need to take blood? This it what I can't understand, not to sure what you are trying to achieve by taking blood with no particular analysis or purpose in mind.



> im not stupid and just cos i have not put all of the info down on here does not mean we dont know anything, sorry to sound like im acting like an ass but people seem to think everyone is thick as :censor: and that they are naive and dont plan this out.


I assumed that the reason you posted this in the venomous section was for input from people. I am not trying to be needlessly difficult, just trying to understand what you intend to achieve. You have a lot of very general aims, and provide no details of how these will be accomplished. 




> as for tagging a very small micro chip can be placed into the animal and yes all these factors are a stress on the animals but at the same time so is the mentality of oh venomous snake cut its head off which all too many a people do.


I know you can get small microchips but do they allow tracking? All the snake satellite trackers I have seen (not a huge number) have been reasonably large and required either surgical implant, or forced down the throat. They are not cheap either. Do you have ethical approval to conduct this research? What are you going to record? Of what value is the research? 




> i have 2 years to fully work out which species need the most attention, and again just over 2 years to find a lab that will accept FREE! venom to work on which could potentially save lifes along with the blood samples. plus the idea is to start getting records of population numbers of many a species to really start trying get a grip of movement patterns an and see if there are some that are on the decline which then can be helped further and have more focus on working with south african specialists to try and ensure their survival. there are many a species i would like to work with.


This is why you sound naive. You are determined to 'preserve African venomous snakes' (very admirable) but you don't know which species are threatened. There is only one antivenom producer in South Africa (and a number of French suppliers of other antivenoms for African snakes). Why do you need to extract venom as well? How many venom extractions have you done? How many have you done in the field under difficult circumstances? There is not a shortage of venom from 'common' species in Africa. Antivenom producers will not accept venom from anyone that turns up on their door.



> please do not think iam being a twassact im just sick of people always putting a downer on things i do understand you have valid questions but we can all talk too eachother rather than down to eachother then the world might be a nicer place.
> have a good day and i hope i have not offended you matey im just very passionate about this.


Don't worry, I am not offended at all. I hope I haven't offended you. I just think you really need to consider what you want to achieve. As you said earlier "everyone starts somewhere". Jumping straight into it and planning to save all African venomous snakes, take blood (for no reason that I can see), collect venom (again, for no reason), tag (no reason specified) is possibly biting off more than you can chew. 

David.


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## Naturally Wild (Jul 1, 2012)

David has much more patience in his posts. For me its straightforward sorry I just dont get it.

Its not a matter of trying to "diss you" its more abount trying to figure out what you are trying to achieve.

There are some seriously good people on the forum and Im sure many are wondering about the post.

If its south Africa you are aiming for then a lot of work has already been done?

Dont get defensive, just explain what you are aiming to do.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

DavidR said:


> How much blood do you need to obtain? Have you ever tried taking blood from the palatine vein of a venomous snake? How did you avoid coming into contact with the fangs that sit just in front of it? How many times have you taken blood from the tail vein? How much blood do you usually get using this method? How many times do you miss the vein and have to try again? How many times have you taken blood from an irate venomous snake in the field? Why do you need to take blood? This it what I can't understand, not to sure what you are trying to achieve by taking blood with no particular analysis or purpose in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hi david no offense taken and as another member has pointed out to me in a message my spelling may be a bit off this is because i have dyslexia and have been working 13 hour shifts with an hours combined walk so i do apologize for any spelling mistakes im just very tired at the moment in general also why i have been defensive so anyway.

i will be taking blood from approximately 1 in 3 snakes of the same species we come across will have the smallest amount as it take a very small amount to test, i want to take the blood to test for diseases within the species if something pops up or starts developing within a particular species, anything from viral to fungal infections etc we can at least try to administer any antibiotics to newly found specimens to stop the spread of disease if any were found.
some details are to be kept a secret for the show to give it more worth.

microchip wise im currently looking into this as i can get id tags for 22 dollars a piece they are not traceable as far as i know but are the size of a grain of rice, but i am in the process of emailing a company to see if they can change its design to incorporate gps if not then we can just id tag for records.

as for venom collecting National Health Laboratory Service may well take the venom and they are a south African producer of anti-venom's, i will hopefully be able to conduct an interview with them to get a bit more first hand knowledge of how venom in synthesized etc.
i know am putting together a list of the snakes i would like to work with as well as the endangered and threatened snakes for example Bitis inornata in south Africa or cerastes cerastes - found mainly in Algeria, Libya, Tunisian areas which i would like to work on.
but i do not need to work with a species that is already endangered as i am hoping to also provide awareness, prevention and protection to species in decline from an early stage if possible which is why i wish to research further and start up a project and full a documentary all round with various info and interviews.
i will be also getting some extra training over there with johan marais. 

i am in the early stages but have a lot of stuff planned out. : victory:



Naturally Wild said:


> David has much more patience in his posts. For me its straightforward sorry I just dont get it.
> 
> Its not a matter of trying to "diss you" its more abount trying to figure out what you are trying to achieve.
> 
> ...


hopefully above answers this chap but i am also on a mission to get through some misunderstandings that venomous snakes are just aggressive and want to kill anything in their way as im sure most of us guys know they want to stray away from using their venom in a confrontational way unless really needed and just in general get a lot of good solid info in the documentary. :no1:

oh and i wish to concentrate on habitats that have been destroyed and i dont plan on doing this all at once but yes i plan on at least highlighting it within the documentary, i have put down a lot of ideas here but i should have done it with saying future projects etc as i plan to fully get as far into reconstructing habitats around 2016 onwards after a couple of years of initial research and hopefully working with specialists out their.


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Read, read, read, read, read and read some more! 

This is a very useful website Snakes and Reptiles - Cape Reptile Institute South Africa, ecological research, herpetology, book and photo sales, filming, photo gallery and links

Read the scientific publications. Each one will help you understand exactly what can be achieved on an ecological study and you will discover you simply cannot do everything. Scientific progress is about focusing on one or a handful of tightly related questions, in succession.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Gaboon said:


> Read, read, read, read, read and read some more!
> 
> This is a very useful website Snakes and Reptiles - Cape Reptile Institute South Africa, ecological research, herpetology, book and photo sales, filming, photo gallery and links
> 
> Read the scientific publications. Each one will help you understand exactly what can be achieved on an ecological study and you will discover you simply cannot do everything. Scientific progress is about focusing on one or a handful of tightly related questions, in succession.


thank you very much matey i will have a good read : victory:


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

benjaybo said:


> thank you very much matey i will have a good read : victory:


you would do well to contact Tony and discuss your ideas and take his expert advice


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

slippery42 said:


> you would do well to contact Tony and discuss your ideas and take his expert advice


thank you i will do am in the process of writing so many email to different peoples for so many different things, but everything is coming along nicely will probs start a new thread in a month or two with more solid info and a less sugar coated approach to it, only did the thread to raise a lil awareness of what me and a few others plan to work towards doing in our near future :lol2:


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## gmccurdie (Jun 1, 2012)

benjaybo said:


> have been working 13 hour shifts with an hour combined walk so i do apologize for any spelling mistakes I’m just very tired at the moment in general also why i have been defensive so anyway.


Thank you for finally explaining what this thread is about. 

I think your post on Facebook says it all; “keep tuned for info as it *unravels*”.

National Geographic documentary or
Reality TV/Jackass; watch the budding young herpetologists making an expedition to Africa in 2014. Will it be a booze cruse, will they see any snakes, will anyone get bitten or hospitalised?




benjaybo said:


> as we will only have around 3 to 5 weeks to film the mini series





benjaybo said:


> I’m hopefully going to be working with national geographic and other such peoples to determine the outcome of what is the right way to start this project up. Filming for me is really about getting through the misconception that these animals are nasty, evil killing machines. They like all animals have a built in mechanism called "natural instinct" and they do not like invasion into their personal space hence why so many people get bitten for messing about or standing on them, they can say hey ya git rack off! so they strike out although i do have a sneaky suspicion puff adders do just hate everything! lol but in all seriousness they just have a highly developed defensive nature which should not be taken lightly that's for sure........ not going to paraid the animals about for a tv show we are gonna film the animals from a distance as well as get up close for the other stuffs.
> i love these animals but if the odd specimen gets a lil off for 10 mins of close camera time to help get some of that good old steve irwin positivity behind these animals back then so be it, im not gonna do a steve austin and to be frank he does really mess the animals about and is rough as hell with them which i dont like............. i am also on a mission to get through some misunderstandings that venomous snakes are just aggressive and want to kill anything in their way as im sure most of us guys know they want to stray away from using their venom in a confrontational way unless really needed and just in general get a lot of good solid info in the documentary.
> ..... i know am putting together a list of the snakes i would like to work with as well as the endangered and threatened snakes for example Bitis inornata in south Africa or cerastes cerastes - found mainly in Algeria, Libya, Tunisian areas which i would like to work on.
> but i do not need to work with a species that is already endangered as i am hoping to also provide awareness, prevention and protection to species in decline from an early stage if possible which is why i wish to research further and start up a project and full a documentary all round with various info and interviews.


 
Are you going to South Africa or North Africa?



benjaybo said:


> We will be making a documentary on various species of mainly south African venomous viperidae and elapidae species, depending on the funding we can get along side the money we are putting in ourselfs is dependent on whether we can go that bit further and get some more mid to northern venomous snakes in too.


Conservation Project


benjaybo said:


> start up a conservation project with gps tagging and species counts. Preservation of a venomous snakes and their habitat is a major factor and concern for many of us so its time to take more action and set up more programs to help get an idea as to which species are in decline etc....... microchip wise im currently looking into this as i can get id tags for 22 dollars a piece they are not traceable as far as i know but are the size of a grain of rice, but i am in the process of emailing a company to see if they can change its design to incorporate gps if not then we can just id tag for records.


Medical Field Trip


benjaybo said:


> We will also be milking to provide centers with more potentially life saving venom to convert into anti-venom.................. as for venom collecting National Health Laboratory Service may well take the venom and they are a south African producer of anti-venom's, i will hopefully be able to conduct an interview with them to get a bit more first hand knowledge of how venom in synthesized etc.


You may need to supply your own horses??

Bush Vet/Wild at Heart/Daktari


benjaybo said:


> along side collecting blood samples from individuals specimens to keep a track of statistics on each animal making sure they're disease free and healthy........... i will be taking blood from approximately 1 in 3 snakes of the same species we come across will have the smallest amount as it take a very small amount to test, i want to take the blood to test for diseases within the species if something pops up or starts developing within a particular species............If found to be carrying some sort of disease (transferable or not) with the gps we can track them down afterwards and administer antibiotics etc to minimize deaths........ if something pops up or starts developing within a particular species, anything from viral to fungal infections etc we can at least try to administer any antibiotics to newly found specimens to stop the spread of disease if any were found.


Rebuilding Africa’s


benjaybo said:


> Ideally would be good to get into some areas hit heavily by deforestation and start re-planting trees and other plants to start re-building these amazing habitats that are on the brink of decimation..... we wont be even planting trees on this trip. depending of course on what other funding i may be able to get which will put the project into a longer time frame. we will be trying to work with authorities over there to access where has been hit by deforestation hard and we will be setting up more awareness and i would like to also try and stop it to a degree if we can, its not an over night wayhey job done................................ oh and i wish to concentrate on habitats that have been destroyed and i dont plan on doing this all at once but yes i plan on at least highlighting it within the documentary, i have put down a lot of ideas here but i should have done it with saying future projects etc as i plan to fully get as far into reconstructing habitats around 2016 onwards after a couple of years of initial research and hopefully working with specialists out their.


Please Donate:hmm:


benjaybo said:


> We have a group on facebook which im afraid is only for members coming only as we can all update it and let everyone know how everything's getting on.
> We also have a donations page on indiegogo, so spread the word and donate if possible even if its a dollar all is worthy to help keep these majestic animals safe.


 



benjaybo said:


> i have been wanting to do this for years for about 10 actually but around 7 years ago i was at my all time highest weight of 32 stone and am now 19 i have a few stone to loose but im getting there with it, do you honestly think i wanna be dropped into africa with a team and not know a thing......i mean really the teams saftey falls on my back and im not going to just be throwing lifes away.
> but cos my name is not this or that im naive, everyone starts somewhere....... i am in the early stages but have a lot of stuff planned out.


You don’t START by LEADING a TEAM.



benjaybo said:


> its my lifes ambition to actually try and do some good for the world im not in it to get rich im in it to know theres still some sort of a world left for my grandkids kids and so on.





benjaybo said:


> as for tagging a very small micro chip can be placed into the animal and yes all these factors are a stress on the animals but at the same time so is the mentality of oh venomous snake cut its head off which all too many a people do. i have 2 years to fully work out which species need the most attention, and again just over 2 years to find a lab that will accept FREE! venom to work on which could potentially save lifes along with the blood samples. plus the idea is to start getting records of population numbers of many a species to really start trying get a grip of movement patterns an and see if there are some that are on the decline which then can be helped further and have more focus on working with south african specialists to try and ensure their survival. there are many a species i would like to work with.





benjaybo said:


> im also in the process of getting a hold of donald Schultz..... to get some advice from him and we should hopefully have a south African specialist coming with us...... i will be also getting some extra training over there with johan marais........... am in the process of writing so many email to different peoples for so many different things, but everything is coming along nicely will probs start a new thread in a month or two with more solid info and a less sugar coated approach to it, only did the thread to raise a lil awareness of what me and a few others plan to work towards doing in our near future.


Sounds like the conversations we all have which start to go off at a save the world tangent. While all very noble; I think everyone can see from what you have said on here that *you* need to go back to the drawing board. or maybe your just trying to defend your position when people challenge your explanation when you ask for donations.

If you have exercised a bit of poetic licence in your role in a larger scientific expedition then I wish you well.

If you are going to a few of Johan Marais’s classes in snake handling and conservation before going into the bush on a safari, then I would say; I hope you and your friends enjoy your holiday, the South Africans are very hospitable people.

If you are planning on leading an expedition next year, or 2014, I would ask you to stop; as from what you have explained here, you do not have the experience to lead such an expedition and someone could get seriously hurt.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

ok right its not going to be a booze cruise/or jackass, we have a south african with all the experience needed who lives here in the uk coming with us i believe i have not even said i am leading the trip again more closed minded people with no knowledge about me or what i stand for so dont make it out to be a sham.
im in talks with a few people at the moment and yes im being defensive but i dont do drugs seeing as in the last few months ave quit being an addict of various substances and sorted my life and got it on the turn around even to the point of i dont take caffeine into my system so maybe take you assumptions elsewhere as ants farther is a pilot and his uncle is pro tracker and his misses is a nurse, just because i have not written it down does not mean i dont have plans. 

i put this thread on here only to raise some awareness about the future of some of me and my friends goals in life. i dont think i will save or rebuild africa but putting our small findings together and giving all the info to the right sources working with nat geo which i am in talks with. 
thanks and hope this is me defending your challenge enough for you :flrt:


gmccurdie said:


> Thank you for finally explaining what this thread is about.
> 
> I think your post on Facebook says it all; “keep tuned for info as it *unravels*”.
> 
> ...


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

benjaybo said:


> /words/


To be honest all have seen you say is that you're in talks with this person, emailed that person a few days ago etc etc. 

You may have hit a bit of luck with plans on the ground with guides and a pilot (you getting the fuel and fees free?) but you are nowhere near as ready as you think you are. It's not just about the funding....

Also.... Who's ant? Should we know him? 

Who's leading it? 

Who are the team members?

What qualifications/experience do they have?

What exactly are your aims and what do you intend to achieve? 
(not broad brush stuff ....)


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## AJ76 (May 24, 2011)

benjaybo said:


> ok right its not going to be a booze cruise/or jackass, we have a south african with all the experience needed who lives here in the uk coming with us i believe i have not even said i am leading the trip again more closed minded people with no knowledge about me or what i stand for so dont make it out to be a sham.
> im in talks with a few people at the moment and yes im being defensive but i dont do drugs seeing as in the last few months ave quit being an addict of various substances and sorted my life and got it on the turn around even to the point of i dont take caffeine into my system so maybe take you assumptions elsewhere as ants farther is a pilot and his uncle is pro tracker and his misses is a nurse, just because i have not written it down does not mean i dont have plans.
> 
> i put this thread on here only to raise some awareness about the future of some of me and my friends goals in life. i dont think i will save or rebuild africa but putting our small findings together and giving all the info to the right sources working with nat geo which i am in talks with.
> thanks and hope this is me defending your challenge enough for you :flrt:


 




I am sorry but all this last post has defined is how right all the people that have challenged you actually are.......

Best

AJ


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

mods close the thread please 
ps i know im not ready.....if i was ready i would sell everything i own right now to get me to south africa now hence we will be going on a trip in 2014. with or without outside funding, this forum used to be a friendly non biased place where you could just put up a thread and get friendly advice and not agro an people talking down to you like ur thick as shit. to all those who have helped me thank you to everyone else think about ya lifes and try to not destroy every persons dream to be a conservationist the world need them....


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

benjaybo said:


> mods close the thread please
> ps i know im not ready.....if i was ready i would sell everything i own right now to get me to south africa now hence we will be going on a trip in 2014. with or without outside funding, this forum used to be a friendly non biased place where you could just put up a thread and get friendly advice and not agro an people talking down to you like ur thick as shit. to all those who have helped me thank you to everyone else think about ya lifes and try to not destroy every persons dream to be a conservationist the world need them....


Not every question is a personal attack or destroying your dream.

If you want funding you will have to answer much more probing questions. *shrug*

All the best anyway.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Not every question is a personal attack or destroying your dream.
> 
> If you want funding you will have to answer much more probing questions. *shrug*
> 
> All the best anyway.


i klnow but i feels this way some answers we do not have yet i just dont like peoples attitudes i have personally even on peoples threads that they should be told to get a grip etc have been polite and helpful. i just dont get how everyone is so abrupt i understand we have things to sort and do not have all the answers but i have spent many years planning various things and i do not expect to sort all the problems out or even save any species over night but i would like to work towards protecting various species from even getting to the point of being class as vulnerable etc etc 

im also writing a book on the evolutionary development of reptile venom, i may have limited training and or experience but i have knowledge and will not go in 2 and a quarter years time if we feel we are able to do the basic plan which is film a low budget documentary get some interviews with people over there and generally get some filming and promotion for these beautiful animals. everything else comes later i should have gone about writing this thread all different i understand this after the way everyone has been.


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## gmccurdie (Jun 1, 2012)

benjaybo said:


> im also writing a book on the evolutionary development of reptile venom, i may have limited training and or experience but i have knowledge and will not go in 2 and a quarter years time if we feel we are able to do the basic plan which is film a low budget documentary get some interviews with people over there and generally get some filming and promotion for these beautiful animals. everything else comes later i should have gone about writing this thread all different i understand this after the way everyone has been.


When you find yourself in a hole...........
Stop digging!


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## slippery42 (Mar 23, 2008)

benjaybo said:


> i just dont get how everyone is so abrupt i understand we have things to sort and do not have all the answers but i have spent many years planning various things and i do not expect to sort all the problems out or even save any species over night but i would like to work towards protecting various species from even getting to the point of being class as vulnerable etc etc
> 
> which is film a low budget documentary get some interviews with people over there and generally get some filming and promotion for these beautiful animals. everything else comes later i should have gone about writing this thread all different i understand this after the way everyone has been.


I still dont get it? Are you doing this as a formal scientific study backed by academically recognised scientists/study or as a "herping holiday"?

Also your initial post indicated that you were looking at something akin to a National Geographic channel documentary and now you are saying its a low budget idea, presumably with a consumer camcorder?

I wish you all be best but I am still unsure of this whole thing and it being a wind up


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

gmccurdie said:


> When you find yourself in a hole...........
> Stop digging!


yep :lol2:


slippery42 said:


> I still dont get it? Are you doing this as a formal scientific study backed by academically recognised scientists/study or as a "herping holiday"?
> 
> Also your initial post indicated that you were looking at something akin to a National Geographic channel documentary and now you are saying its a low budget idea, presumably with a consumer camcorder?
> 
> I wish you all be best but I am still unsure of this whole thing and it being a wind up


hopefully it will have backing of nat geo, wcs etc but if we do not get the funding then it will be low budget doc as we will be buying our equipment our selves i have experience with photography and filming from it being a long time hobby of mine. i will be establishing a wider knowledge and experience in field work over this next 2 and a quarter but to put it bluntly i spose we will be going on an intensive scientific herping holiday gaining extra hands on knowledge, i will be going to SA a couple of times before it etc. it is not a wind up just so ya know.: victory:


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## gmccurdie (Jun 1, 2012)

benjaybo said:


> yep :lol2:
> 
> hopefully it will have backing of nat geo, wcs etc but if we do not get the funding then it will be low budget doc as we will be buying our equipment our selves i have experience with photography and filming from it being a long time hobby of mine. i will be establishing a wider knowledge and experience in field work over this next 2 and a quarter but to put it bluntly i spose we will be going on an intensive scientific herping holiday gaining extra hands on knowledge, i will be going to SA a couple of times before it etc. it is not a wind up just so ya know.: victory:


Ok now we have cooled down and are talking more rationally. This would have been a better way to start the thread.
Check out Kelfezond’s post:2thumb:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/dwa-species/874603-my-dwa-experience-wrigglies.html
If you had come on slowly and shared the stages of your journey to achieving your ambition future (field researcher, conservationist or documentary maker) you wouldn’t have received so much criticism.
I for one would like to see a thread telling us of your experiences and reviewing the various courses you have attended.


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## Pirate7 (Apr 7, 2008)

Don't know if anyone has brought it up, I believe you mentioned GPS trackers. 

Are you aware of the price? (I've done a *lot* of radio tracking with hedgehogs),

How do you intend to implement them onto a snake? 

It’s quite an intrusive method of conservation, however maybe a good idea. But do the snakes out in South Africa really need conserving? 

In the mean time would it not be appropriate to join the Herpetological Conservation Trust work with them, get some professional knowledge?

Also, are you awarebefore you can carry out ANY conservation as you need to make sure it's viable - so you'll need some cracking experimental designs - knowledge in statistics - and your hypothises to get initial funding, before any conservation is taken forward. As there is no point creating herbanacular if there are no snake presence. (That is just a basic example). Or at least a number of models to take to places like Nat Geographic as they need to see what you intend to do, every set of the way with their money.

- What we see from Wildlife Documentaries is usually what the conservationists to display their work and findings - we don't see all the work they put in, researching, exp designs, statistics etc....


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

gmccurdie said:


> Ok now we have cooled down and are talking more rationally. This would have been a better way to start the thread.
> Check out Kelfezond’s post:2thumb:
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/dwa-species/874603-my-dwa-experience-wrigglies.html
> If you had come on slowly and shared the stages of your journey to achieving your ambition future (field researcher, conservationist or documentary maker) you wouldn’t have received so much criticism.
> I for one would like to see a thread telling us of your experiences and reviewing the various courses you have attended.


yeh i honestly just didnt think i would have been slated so easly as i had finished a 15 hour shift then thought when i got home would right the thread up so didnt really think about putting in all the details just though i would make people aware of the upcoming years etc for me and a few friends, i have a first diploma in animals care which i got distinction* on but it aint worth much :lol2: the main bulk of my knowledge comes from years of personal research into animal behaviour (mainly snakes and lizards), their habitat and for the last year or 2 have been going into the evolution of snakes mainly venomous and their venoms. 

i will be doing a few courses over this next year or 2 one on conservation (looking up open university and elsewhere as we speak) and getting dwa handling before i do some courses with johan marais on one of the random trips before we make the doc, the only annoying thing is i have to work in correspondence as i have to work full-time. next year after breeding my carpets i will be putting all monies towards getting out on another expedition as a volunteer to get some real hands on experience.
: victory:


Pirate7 said:


> Don't know if anyone has brought it up, I believe you mentioned GPS trackers.
> 
> Are you aware of the price? (I've done a *lot* of radio tracking with hedgehogs),
> 
> ...


im working on trying to find a solution to gps tacking i can get id tags that are the size of a grain of rice which can be implanted just under the scales within fatty tissue, but i am waiting reply on whether they have a possibility of converting these to give out a signal even if it is only picked up from 50 to 100 meters away. if so is all dandy if not we can at least document each specimen we find and id tag them for future reference and if we come across that snake again we can cross examine new and old data to see how much progress it has made with regards to growth etc. 
: victory:


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

benjaybo said:


> yep :lol2:
> 
> hopefully it will have backing of nat geo, wcs etc but if we do not get the funding then it will be low budget doc as we will be buying our equipment our selves i have experience with photography and filming from it being a long time hobby of mine. i will be establishing a wider knowledge and experience in field work over this next 2 and a quarter but to put it bluntly i spose we will be going on an *intensive scientific herping holiday gaining extra hands on knowledge,* i will be going to SA a couple of times before it etc. it is not a wind up just so ya know.: victory:


In which case:

Fair play, sounds awesome, have fun, don't do anything daft and I can't wait to see the pics. :2thumb:

I wouldn't hold out much hope of getting financial backing to the degree you would need though.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Lord Vetinari said:


> In which case:
> 
> Fair play, sounds awesome, have fun, don't do anything daft and I can't wait to see the pics. :2thumb:
> 
> I wouldn't hold out much hope of getting financial backing to the degree you would need though.


cheers :2thumb: yeh for me the funding if it happened would only be a bonus we are all paying for everything ourselfs but will keep posted and such as will be fun, my main concern is making sure everyone is kept safe when we go out for snakes there will only be a very small group as im not having tones of people stumbling about messing around or distracting people as will be on high alert and paying the up most attention to everything going on around us. 

and dont worry their will be a tone of pics indeed more than you can shake a cat at :lol2:


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## coldestblood (Jun 4, 2011)

Do you have any hands on experience with hots (if so, how much?)? If you don't, then the trip is bad idea, and should be either scrapped, or at the least, postponed.

Africa has some VERY dangerous snakes - everything from cobras, saw scales, mambas, and much more (depending where in India you go).

I've been working with hots regular for over 5yrs, and have quite a few hots at home (mainly rattlers and arboreal viper, and 2 cobras on the way). Despite this, if you put a mamba in front of me, I wouldn't want to 'handle' (work with) it. I just don't think I'm ready for something so fast, and so dangerous - overestimating your abilities is one of the worst things you can do. It could end up with you, or a team member, in serious danger. If you're not ready for what you may come across, then it's just an accident waiting to happen. 

Before taking any more steps, I'd suggest you get some real hands on experience. I'd also scrap the milking and chipping and blood collection, as it's a risk that isn't really needed - no one will want the venom, the blood will cost a fortune to analise, and chipping is pointless unless someone is going to follow it up. Why not just make it an extended herping holiday, and if all goes well, take on the conservation part at a later date?

If you do have enough experience, then please ignore my post.


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## Richcymru (Nov 21, 2008)

This stinks of Rhys to the rescue


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

coldestblood said:


> Do you have any hands on experience with hots (if so, how much?)? If you don't, then the trip is bad idea, and should be either scrapped, or at the least, postponed.
> 
> Africa has some VERY dangerous snakes - everything from cobras, saw scales, mambas, and much more (depending where in India you go).
> 
> ...


i wont be handling any mambas and dont want to really ever handle on lol i would love to film them in the wild but not too close. i ont have enough experience with handling hots but i am wanting to get regular handling i would get my dwa but i cannot where i live hopefully next year will get 
it. i may scrap those few things to be fair but i may still do the chipping as i will be wanting to go back at least twice a year to do follow ups an more if possible. im going to do conservation even if its from a distance and is very simple statistics for the first few times over their. hopefully will be living over there for a while in the near future see what happens. 

i wont go in too deep over my head if we are not ready at the time we wont do anything other than have a scientific herpers holiday but we will film the documentary as a lot of it will be getting interviews and talking about snake behaviour and such which can be done with non-venomous snakes during these bits with added fotage of various venomous snakes either being handled by the members of our team with plenty of experience already. :2thumb:


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## Pirate7 (Apr 7, 2008)

benjaybo said:


> im working on trying to find a solution to gps tacking i can get id tags that are the size of a grain of rice which can be implanted just under the scales within fatty tissue, but i am waiting reply on whether they have a possibility of converting these to give out a signal even if it is only picked up from 50 to 100 meters away. if so is all dandy if not we can at least document each specimen we find and id tag them for future reference and if we come across that snake again we can cross examine new and old data to see how much progress it has made with regards to growth etc.
> : victory:


Ah I see, if your going doing the medical route have a look at Romulus Whitaker work, especially with his design of radio tags he has them implanted within the tissue already, however it'd cost you more as you'd need to have a vet on the trip with you (plus all equipment needed) - If I remember correctly Romulus has to get someone from the authorities to agree that the posedure can be carried out. Saw it on a wildlife documentory a couple of years ago. I guess this'll give you scope to come up with a model tagging technique, would defiantly be interested to know if you have been able to come across anything. 

Being able to do a mark and recapture study on snakes would be invaluable. Do a quick journal search on Google Scholar you might be able to get some free access journals which can help with further ideas and how to put everything into practice.

Good luck and I'd be interesting to hear the outcome.


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## Richcymru (Nov 21, 2008)

Within 4 pages it's turned from a rather over ambitious, pan-Africa conservation/research project to a herping jolly. You talk about starting in South Africa and then including central and northern species, so I assume you are going to be there for a good length of time? Travel in most of Africa is tedious at the best of times and bloody awful if you do indeed head to the centre on the continent: DRC - good luck finding useable roads outside of Kinshasa or medical help for that matter.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Pirate7 said:


> Ah I see, if your going doing the medical route have a look at Romulus Whitaker work, especially with his design of radio tags he has them implanted within the tissue already, however it'd cost you more as you'd need to have a vet on the trip with you (plus all equipment needed) - If I remember correctly Romulus has to get someone from the authorities to agree that the posedure can be carried out. Saw it on a wildlife documentory a couple of years ago. I guess this'll give you scope to come up with a model tagging technique, would defiantly be interested to know if you have been able to come across anything.
> 
> Being able to do a mark and recapture study on snakes would be invaluable. Do a quick journal search on Google Scholar you might be able to get some free access journals which can help with further ideas and how to put everything into practice.
> 
> Good luck and I'd be interesting to hear the outcome.


hi cheers for that chap yeh i am waiting on a reply from rom have emailed him already but i would imagine he is busy and will get back to me as and when he can. i have given snakes and mammals antibiotics injections on many a occasion and have been given full training. but i will look into it further for sure, depending on whether we get donations or funding is the maker or breaker for doing the gps in 2014 if not it can be done at a later date. 
sound be a good trip am looking forward to it. 
:2thumb: 



Richcymru said:


> Within 4 pages it's turned from a rather over ambitious, pan-Africa conservation/research project to a herping jolly. You talk about starting in South Africa and then including central and northern species, so I assume you are going to be there for a good length of time? Travel in most of Africa is tedious at the best of times and bloody awful if you do indeed head to the centre on the continent: DRC - good luck finding useable roads outside of Kinshasa or medical help for that matter.


hi i never stated i was going to cover the whole of Africa maybe you shouldn't take the title to literally chap, its a good title but i don't say im hitting the whole of Africa and to be fair too many people took it as a non planned super over ambitious trip, 
NOT THE CASE just because i didn't say we will be focusing on south African species and i do believe i have only said a few species as examples for what some endangered species were as everyone though i was thick on here and i have never said anything about more northern species for the documentary although i have many a species i would like to work with for the doc it is 99% southern species. 
As for roads we will be focusing in areas where there are good roads one of the team was born and raised in south Africa and knows the roads. plus i never said this trip was or was not going to be a full scale expedition thats again people going over the top and me not explaining myself properly so have a nice day chap. 

from the start before i even started planning the trip and way before i posted this thread it was always only going to be a starter to my career, i am not naive or stupid and will not leading the team as i am not the SA specialst that has written a report etc on SA snakes etc for bhs amongst other stuff and having a tone of experience this trip was merely about starting our careers and heading in the direction we would like but mostly about making a low budget documentary look high quality and bring some praise to venomous snakes without making them out to be mindless killers that will attack everything within ex-amount of meters and they can kill an elephant an a lot of bull which a lot of documentaries do for the hype etc. i would be working in Africa all my life as i have many countries and species i wish to work with and do film and photography with. : victory:

ps im not being assy in-case it comes across that way.


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## Naturally Wild (Jul 1, 2012)

benjaybo said:


> ps im not being assy in-case it comes across that way.


Basically you are saying you are doing everything that has been done before with little of no experience and trying to get funding to have your jolly.

Then you wonder why experienced field herpers and venomous keepers are sceptical about this?

Ben,

My thoughts are

Have you ever herped abroad?

Interacted with Venomous species

Undertaken professional photography

Done professional videography

Just a thought

My name is not chap. fella or guy

If you are determined to go ahead with this please reconsider how you are trying to put this across if you wish to be taken seriously


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Naturally Wild said:


> Basically you are saying you are doing everything that has been done before with little of no experience and trying to get funding to have your jolly.
> 
> Then you wonder why experienced field herpers and venomous keepers are sceptical about this?
> 
> ...


well sorry matey but where in ur posts have you put ur name i call a hell of a lot of people chap, fella, matey but i do believe i have not said guy i have experience with film and photgraphy if our documentary is not up to ur video quality standard then dont watch it is that ok naturally-wild if thats better. 
before we shoot i will have all the experience i need as i keep stating and will not any further i literally have just found one of my snakes dead was going to get her into the vets this afternoon just so anyone does not think im capable of looking after my animals in the last 2 to 3 days she has been slightly off so was gonna get her in, she was fine this morning so dont start out about that happening. is not a good day to be belittling me end of if you think im a non informed prick then dont reply its ur choice and if im doing summut thats been done which is a yes oh well its what i want to do, and is a good start instead of sitting at home being a keyboard worrior, i dont judge you on your life or what you may or may not want to do in it.
if it takes to 2016 before i do the doc then thats what it takes i will not be going if i dont feel at ease with it and will not be messing with animals how do you think people get careers built up they go out and get a propper portfolio made up from being out in the field........thats what i plan on doing.
i have also had the male to that pair die last night from swallowing a lil lump of compacted soil it is a very big blow to me especially to have it happen to both in a pair within 20 hours of each other, i have never had any problems with my animals in the 10 years of keeping them before and have only ever had a water dragon die do to my efforts with force feeding not working with him (he stopped eating the day after i got my dwarf monitor dont know why maybe a predatorial scent stressing him out) and 2 dwarf chameleons which where sent by a supposed reputable breeder through mail in shocking condition as in ribbs showing that badly and under nourished (the most advanced of cham keepers would have been likely to loose them) and as well know they dont fair travel in the best of conditions.


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## Naturally Wild (Jul 1, 2012)

benjaybo said:


> well sorry matey but where in ur posts have you put ur name i call a hell of a lot of people chap, fella, matey but i do believe i have not said guy i have experience with film and photgraphy if our documentary is not up to ur video quality standard then dont watch it is that ok naturally-wild if thats better.
> before we shoot i will have all the experience i need as i keep ****ing stating and will not any further i literally have just found one of my snakes dead was going to get her into the vets this afternoon just so anyone does not think im capable of looking after my animals in the last 2 to 3 days she has been slightly off so was gonna get her in, she was fine this morning so dont start out about that happening. is not a good day to be belittling me end of if you think im a non informed prick then dont reply its ur choice and if im doing summut thats been done which is a yes oh well its what i want to do, and is a good start instead of sitting at home being a keyboard worrior, i dont judge you on your life or what you may or may not want to do in it.
> if it takes to 2016 before i do the doc then thats what it takes i will not be going if i dont feel at ease with it and will not be messing with animals how do you think people get careers built up they go out and get a propper portfolio made up from being out in the field........thats what i plan on doing.
> i have also had the male to that pair die last night from swallowing a lil lump of compacted soil it is a very big blow to me especially to have it happen to both in a pair within 20 hours of each other, i have never had any problems with my animals in the 10 years of keeping them before and have only ever had a water dragon die do to my efforts with force feeding not working with him (he stopped eating the day after i got my dwarf monitor dont know why maybe a predatorial scent stressing him out) and 2 dwarf chameleons which where sent by a supposed reputable breeder through mail in shocking condition as in ribbs showing that badly and under nourished (the most advanced of cham keepers would have been likely to loose them) and as well know they dont fair travel in the best of conditions.


Sorry to hear bout your animals but you need to sort out that chip on your shoulder if you want any help. Using that language on the forum has said a lot.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Naturally Wild said:


> Sorry to hear bout your animals but you need to sort out that chip on your shoulder if you want any help. Using that language on the forum has said a lot.


im expecting a message or something a moderator and wont excuse the fact that i do need to chill n have a chip as you say on my shoulder but i have been thrown into crap for many years being told im worthless by my ex stepmother which has had a knock on effect and i get defensive but i have seen a lot worse langue on here just messing around, i do get defensive easily but when talk to you as if you stupid or just know anything and as in previous posts on this thread people stating it i will get defensive. i know im no Mark O'shea but i have plans and will be carrying them out safely and getting regular handling experience as soon as i can, i do not mean to offend and should have written the original post differently but there is no need for so many people to have been so rude to me making me get defensive about every post i see. 

but i do send you my apologies for being so fiery i am just in a bad place today and took your post to heart.: victory:


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## gmccurdie (Jun 1, 2012)

benjaybo said:


> well sorry matey but where in ur posts have you put ur name i call a hell of a lot of people chap, fella, matey but i do believe i have not said guy i have experience with film and photgraphy if our documentary is not up to ur video quality standard then dont watch it is that ok naturally-wild if thats better.
> before we shoot i will have all the experience i need as i keep ****ing stating and will not any further i literally have just found one of my snakes dead was going to get her into the vets this afternoon just so anyone does not think im capable of looking after my animals in the last 2 to 3 days she has been slightly off so was gonna get her in, she was fine this morning so dont start out about that happening. is not a good day to be belittling me end of if you think im a non informed prick then dont reply its ur choice and if im doing summut thats been done which is a yes oh well its what i want to do, and is a good start instead of sitting at home being a keyboard worrior, i dont judge you on your life or what you may or may not want to do in it.
> if it takes to 2016 before i do the doc then thats what it takes i will not be going if i dont feel at ease with it and will not be messing with animals how do you think people get careers built up they go out and get a propper portfolio made up from being out in the field........thats what i plan on doing.
> i have also had the male to that pair die last night from swallowing a lil lump of compacted soil it is a very big blow to me especially to have it happen to both in a pair within 20 hours of each other, i have never had any problems with my animals in the 10 years of keeping them before and have only ever had a water dragon die do to my efforts with force feeding not working with him (he stopped eating the day after i got my dwarf monitor dont know why maybe a predatorial scent stressing him out) and 2 dwarf chameleons which where sent by a supposed reputable breeder through mail in shocking condition as in ribbs showing that badly and under nourished (the most advanced of cham keepers would have been likely to loose them) and as well know they dont fair travel in the best of conditions.


Ben or can I call you Tiger.

You appear to be falling apart. If we had any doubts about your experience with animals before, that little tantrum has sealed the deal.

I to am sorry to hear about your animals, but having heard this I don’t think I’d like you looking after Africa. 

If you go off the deep end when people say thinks what are you going to be like real pressure.

Wind your neck in and think. Maybe I was too subtle telling you to stop digging.

It would only have taken a few minutes to find out who you were arguing with.


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## gmccurdie (Jun 1, 2012)

Naturally Wild said:


> Sorry to hear bout your animals but you need to sort out that chip on your shoulder if you want any help. Using that language on the forum has said a lot.


Like the restraint
:notworthy:


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

gmccurdie said:


> Ben or can I call you Tiger.
> 
> You appear to be falling apart. If we had any doubts about your experience with animals before, that little tantrum has sealed the deal.
> 
> ...


don not judge my capabilities of looking after my animals or any other animals within this world, you may be older than me???? as im 24 but i have had 10 years of EXPERIENCE with herpetiles alone so dont say you and everyone doubt my abilities as you know nothing of me or what i know. 

i have no problem with people telling me their mind but i do have a problem with people talking to me without respect, whether they have more experience or not treat and talk to another as you wish to be treated and talked to else i wont be hospitable and it was not a tantrum it was a direct reply to being annoyed about the my name aint chap, fella or guy remark which was just so slightly picky was it not as i have never said chap or fella in a nasty way same as the word matey and have never called naturally-wild guy so it stuck my back up. usually specking im a calm person and when it comes to my herp's im very calm and collected and such. but i wont stand by and let people talk to me like a piece of worthless garbage 
(this is aimed at everyone and by no means fully at you i wish to gain more knowledge as i believe no single person can have all the knowledge of a single subject to me the life of a herpetologist is an on going study until i die) 

i just hope you guys dont start a thread and get treated as i have on here and im not digging if by defending myself is digging a hole then we should all roll over when ever anyone aims a bone at us lol. 

i do not wish to have this agro in my life especially not at the moment and i do not wish to cause agro or to be rude anyone.

i have an autopsy to do on my male gulf tonight after work and will be documenting it if anyone is genuinely interested in finding out 100% what it was he swallowed which has to be a small clump of soil as i make sure all my animals vivs are kept to a high level of hygiene and safety is a must for them, i will supply pics that i will be taking of the autopsy just give me a pm. 

regards 
ben


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 4, 2011)

benjaybo said:


> don not judge my capabilities of looking after my animals or any other animals within this world, you may be older than me???? as im 24 but i have had 10 years of EXPERIENCE with herpetiles alone so dont say you and everyone doubt my abilities as you know nothing of me or what i know. They will be judged- thats what humans do. Why not tell us what you have done, what you keep etc?
> 
> i have no problem with people telling me their mind but i do have a problem with people talking to me without respect, What have you done to earn it? You evade all the questions related to your experience. So as above why not fill us in? We arent mind readers so have no idea of what you have done.  whether they have more experience or not treat and talk to another as you wish to be treated and talked to else i wont be hospitable and it was not a tantrum it was a direct reply to being annoyed about the my name aint chap, fella or guy remark which was just so slightly picky was it not as i have never said chap or fella in a nasty way same as the word matey and have never called naturally-wild guy so it stuck my back up. Naturally-Wild can ask to be called whatever he likes. In RL I hate my name being shortened. If he doesn't want to be called matey or whatever (however you meant it) he can ask not to be. Its up to him really.  usually specking im a calm person and when it comes to my herp's im very calm and collected and such.(...??) but i wont stand by and let people talk to me like a piece of worthless garbage
> (this is aimed at everyone and by no means fully at you i wish to gain more knowledge as i believe no single person can have all the knowledge of a single subject to me the life of a herpetologist is an on going study until i die) No one is claiming they do.
> ...


all in red....


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Lord Vetinari said:


> all in red....


i will just take a step back 
but a lil info is that i have spent many years researching and studying snake and lizard behiour (self studying) i would have been going to uni this year to do conservation like a friend of mine but i was forced to become a chef and went back to college to further myself in this field but after completing my first year at D** level i started and got through most of the first year of a two year animal management course with askham bryan i again was completing everything at a top level but due to my poor back ground i was working 7 days a week and still was not to complete the course as i just did not bring in enough money. 
i would have been starting a 3 to 4 year course in animals conservation this sep coming. 
but i have kept various reptiles i started with a cali king, then a water dragon, then after a few years of researching and such i stepped up to a dwarf storrs monitor and went into boas and pythons, i have 5 carpet pythons 3 with me at the moment am having other 2 in the next week and a half. 
i have had cresties but again a simple species to keep etc, i also have had ribbons i am selling my pair of peninsulas to a lovely woman and is where im getting one of my pythons from an irian jaya fem. 
i have had vast amounts of experience with aggressive snake and have re-trained a go amount of snakes that have gotten nasty/less tolerable of human contact over the years for other people.
i have also had chams but didnt bother again as i will not get unless i can go see them and make sure they are ok and healthy.

my main strengths are snake and monitor lizard behaviour as well as habitat construction which is a great love of mine. 
i also plan to have my dwa in the next year is a case of living arrangements which has stopped me the past few years but my fiancee is finishing her mastery degree in chemistry this sep coming and is in her best interests to be able to finish before we move and i can start my dwa venture.

while at colege i did report on titanoboa which really got me interested in the evolution and mutation that got our snakes to where they are today and has spurred me on to write a book on the subject.
i have no venomous snake handling experience but i am going to go to many a class before 2014 as well as i will be going on at least 4 herping holidays before then 2 of which will be africa with my SA friend taking me around the area he grew up handling these animals and while over there will be heading to see johan marais for some of his courses.

the next 2 to 3 years for me is about getting some courses on conservation done as well as getting out their on some of the bioblitz events too. i want to gain much more practical field experience i have gone out with a few friends and looked for this and that and documented the odd insects here and there etc.

i have a lot of experience with snakes and their behaviour and handling and i do wish to pursue hots training and i know i need to i wouldnt go out in the field without this as a dead man fighting to promote the welfare of these animals is as useful as butter being used to seal an oven door :lol2:
i have to go to work hopefully more people have had questions answered : victory:


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## kettykev (May 15, 2009)

Good luck with your plans, but if you don't mind me asking..Why Africa? There are populations of snakes in Europe which are in decline and local people who need to be educated about snakes and other reptiles. They still believe that skinks are deadly and that frogs steal the milk from cows, beautiful Leopard snakes are battered to death on sight in Greece.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

kettykev said:


> Good luck with your plans, but if you don't mind me asking..Why Africa? There are populations of snakes in Europe which are in decline and local people who need to be educated about snakes and other reptiles. They still believe that skinks are deadly and that frogs steal the milk from cows, beautiful Leopard snakes are battered to death on sight in Greece.


great question well i personally love African snakes but my farther has a home in Bulgaria which i will be going and trying to get some local knowledge around about these lovely animals as when was over their he constantly saw people killing venomous snakes instead of moving them on i have a lot of plans for the future and may even concentrate on a couple of species within Europe yet. but i do have many a goal and am only 24 so have to prioritize what needs attention first before solely concentrating my effort into those areas :no1: 
i am very keen on working with _Vipera ammodytes _but that is just an interest as they are not in danger and are pretty common. :2thumb:


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## Moshpitviper (Oct 21, 2005)

Honestly

Cannot

Be

Bothered

To 

Read

This

Thread.

: victory:


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Moshpitviper said:


> Honestly
> 
> Cannot
> 
> ...


haha got some nice snakes was looking at your signature :2thumb:


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## gmccurdie (Jun 1, 2012)

benjaybo said:


> great question well i personally love African snakes but my farther has a home in Bulgaria which i will be going and trying to get some local knowledge around about these lovely animals as when was over their he constantly saw people killing venomous snakes instead of moving them on i have a lot of plans for the future and may even concentrate on a couple of species within Europe yet. but i do have many a goal and am only 24 so have to prioritize what needs attention first before solely concentrating my effort into those areas :no1:
> i am very keen on working with _Vipera ammodytes _but that is just an interest as they are not in danger and are pretty common. :2thumb:


Annex II of the Bern Convention on the conservation of European wildlife (1979) prohibits the capture or killing of _Vipera ammodytes _as a strictly protected species. They are also protected by Bulgarian Law.

It may be worth your while reading the Bern convention, particularly Annex IV, before disturbing wildlife in Bulgaria. Controversially interfering with a nationals exploitation of the forest would also put you at risk from Bulgarian law.

As you have said _Vipera ammodytes _Is available. If you have a DWAL you can buy CB's, as long as they have certificates, in the UK.


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## DaveWillisHertsARG (Jul 8, 2012)

gmccurdie said:


> Annex II of the Bern Convention on the conservation of European wildlife (1979) prohibits the capture or killing of _Vipera ammodytes _as a strictly protected species. They are also protected by Bulgarian Law.
> 
> It may be worth your while reading the Bern convention, particularly Annex IV, before disturbing wildlife in Bulgaria. Controversially interfering with a nationals exploitation of the forest would also put you at risk from Bulgarian law.
> 
> As you have said _Vipera ammodytes _Is available. If you have a DWAL you can buy CB's, as long as they have certificates, in the UK.


There are a number of European/Eurasian projects currently running focussing on V_ipera. _ What is it exactly that you would like to do with these vipers?


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## DaveWillisHertsARG (Jul 8, 2012)

DaveWillisHertsARG said:


> There are a number of European/Eurasian projects currently running focussing on V_ipera. _What is it exactly that you would like to do with these vipers?


This is directed to the OP, BTW.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

gmccurdie said:


> Annex II of the Bern Convention on the conservation of European wildlife (1979) prohibits the capture or killing of _Vipera ammodytes _as a strictly protected species. They are also protected by Bulgarian Law.
> 
> It may be worth your while reading the Bern convention, particularly Annex IV, before disturbing wildlife in Bulgaria. Controversially interfering with a nationals exploitation of the forest would also put you at risk from Bulgarian law.
> 
> As you have said _Vipera ammodytes _Is available. If you have a DWAL you can buy CB's, as long as they have certificates, in the UK.


i know chap i wont be messing with them i will purely be filming and doing photography i also would like to raise local awareness to stop them getting killed as my farther saw many of the locals hacking up various species of venomous snakes while he lived there, one _Vipera ammodytes _was in his back garden and he carefully picked it up was about to bag it and drive a few miles out of town to let it go and a local run over from out of no where and cut it in half_ :devil: _really need to get more awareness to smaller towns plus i do not intend to break any laws _: victory:


DaveWillisHertsARG said:



This is directed to the OP, BTW.

Click to expand...

 _
hi dave i mainly plan to do photography and maybe a little filming but only of its movements within its environment and of its environment. :2thumb:


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## eminem2012 (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm sorry to post but I just have too. I very rarely post on anything anymore with all of the people that go off topic and tend to enjoy breaking up thread. Not saying anyone who has posted on here has done this. :lol2:
I agree with most people. Benjaybo, this whole thread has demonstrated how you have nowhere near enough experience to do this. It comes across as a complete shambles. It sounds amazing in theory, it really does, but it just doesn't happen like that. I am hoping to go into Herpetology/Conservation work and the thought of achieving even half of what you plan to achieve sounds amazing to my mind. It's just not possible. You have basically told us you have stop using certain "substances" which really doesn't fill me with high hopes that you plan to go out to Africa to handle angry defensive venemous snakes. Sorry mate but you are very naive, and I want to achieve everything that you have said your posts, but you are going the complete wrong way about it. Maybe get a degree, study Zoology that specializes in Herpetology, then decide what you want to do, where you want to be based and what you want your goal to be.
Sorry if this ticks anyone off, I do not intend to annoy anyone.


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## Naturally Wild (Jul 1, 2012)

why the hell do you keep referring to people you do not know as "chap" etc? to my mind this is very chav and disrespectful!

you ain t doing yourself any favours here benjaybo!


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Ben, no one will be able to help you here beyond the advice already given. People will however continue baiting you as you appear so naive and they are bored. Do yourself a favour, go back through this thread and jot down what constitutes as sound advice, sort that list into realistic aims ranked by feasibility, and go for it - don't give a second thought to the antagonists! 

The fact this thread is still perpetuated by your replies suggested a more important motive than Africa. Prove them wrong! 

Finely, _illegitimi non carborundum_ :welcome:


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

eminem2012 said:


> I'm sorry to post but I just have too. I very rarely post on anything anymore with all of the people that go off topic and tend to enjoy breaking up thread. Not saying anyone who has posted on here has done this. :lol2:
> I agree with most people. Benjaybo, this whole thread has demonstrated how you have nowhere near enough experience to do this. It comes across as a complete shambles. It sounds amazing in theory, it really does, but it just doesn't happen like that. I am hoping to go into Herpetology/Conservation work and the thought of achieving even half of what you plan to achieve sounds amazing to my mind. It's just not possible. You have basically told us you have stop using certain "substances" which really doesn't fill me with high hopes that you plan to go out to Africa to handle angry defensive venemous snakes. Sorry mate but you are very naive, and I want to achieve everything that you have said your posts, but you are going the complete wrong way about it. Maybe get a degree, study Zoology that specializes in Herpetology, then decide what you want to do, where you want to be based and what you want your goal to be.
> Sorry if this ticks anyone off, I do not intend to annoy anyone.


no offense taken matey, i will say this i have a clear image in my mind as to various things i would like to do, the thing is too many people are taking this the wrong way, i do know im not going to save the whole of africa's snakes plus im only 24 i have a very long life a head of me, as for addiction this is over and is why i have started planning my future if i dont get to work with any snakes in africa until im 30 i dont care as im not rushing things etc, the thread was only spose to be a hey look should be hopefully doing/starting to do this area of work in the next few to five years but i wrote it way to optimistically for the lowly pessimistic people that have had the honor of handling one of these amazing creatures (not aimed at you matey.) the list is a basis of stuff i would like to do not necessarily full time in each area again too many people have taken my aims the wrong way and assumed i am naive cos i would like to do a broad amount of things with my career the list is not so big and undo-able i will only concentrate on a few species anyway and have plenty of time to prioritize my work plans etc, i have a large list i would like to work with over the next 30 to 40 years of my career but does not mean i am going on a medical field trip or this or jackass tv show or whatever :lol2: again too many a people willing to throw you to the floor for that few seconds of feeling like a big man :lol2: this was on someone else's post same as save africa and various other minor comments that have no worth to the value of the few people that have made real worth while comments and given help. and reminded me of some stuff like rom whitakers work has been interesting re reading through some of the stuff i read about him a while back and have plenty more of his and others work to go through. 
hope you dont take this offensively as i do not mean it to be hope you have a good night (not sarcastically) :lol2: : victory:


Naturally Wild said:


> why the hell do you keep referring to people you do not know as "chap" etc? to my mind this is very chav and disrespectful!
> 
> you ain t doing yourself any favours here benjaybo!


sorry naturally wild but think you need to get a grip i work in the catering industry and talk to over a 100 people a day... so sorry but i have a habit of saying chap etc i could remember over a thousand peoples names a week for you if this is your wish master........ or i could say something stronger but i wont as instead of letting you get to me i will rise above it and if this does bug you please feel free to not concern yourself with my supposed dis-respectfulness and dont bother me again on this thread or just in general. 
the thing is i know i have a few chips on my shoulder which i can learn from and overcome but you are blatantly a stuck up sod as the obvious non offensive usage of these words should not bother you so stop being small minded and petty...., 
I AM NOT A CHAV AND I WAS BROUGHT UP TO RESPECT ALL WALKS OFF LIFE AND HOW THEY PRONOUNCE/GENERALLY SPEAK AS I AM NOT A SNOB AND I DO NOT LOOK DOWN UPON PEOPLE AS I HAVE SOMETHING THAT CAME FREE FROM MY CHILDHOOD...... OH YES AN OPEN MIND!, RESPECT AND SELF WORTH OH AND I ALSO DO NOT STEREOTYPE! PEOPLE, I MAY BE YOUNGER BUT MAYBE YOU COULD LEARN FROM PEOPLE LIKE ME BEFORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU TURN US ALL INTO HATERS!. 

that being said have a nice day naturally wild oh and for future reference no one else has said anything about me calling them chap etc so WHATS YOUR PROBLEM!, 
oh and secondly to this if you do not see fit to tell me you actual name i cannot refer to you by it can i.
love talking to you as always naturally wild :whistling2: 


Gaboon said:


> Ben, no one will be able to help you here beyond the advice already given. People will however continue baiting you as you appear so naive and they are bored. Do yourself a favour, go back through this thread and jot down what constitutes as sound advice, sort that list into realistic aims ranked by feasibility, and go for it - don't give a second thought to the antagonists!
> 
> The fact this thread is still perpetuated by your replies suggested a more important motive than Africa. Prove them wrong!
> 
> Finely, _illegitimi non carborundum_ :welcome:


thank you matey i have already taken the couple of bits of advice and am txting one of the chaps having a laugh and we are going to meet up for coffee and will have a good old chat. i have had a few people give me some good advice and will say thank you again your a star and a respectful person full of advice (which actually counts) no matter your status within the herping community a lot of people could learn from your posts and our shared enthusiasm to give a dam. have a great day.
ps i will prove them wrong and do not worry my friend their pie will indeed be humble!


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

as for the thread guys i do not care i have planning a non keyboard warrior things to be compiling so to those who gave me advice or just in general like to talk to people as human beings and give respect you are a credit to the herping community and keep up the good work, i have contacted a few people as to do their day courses with handling but alas i get no reply apparently my money is not good enough for them as apparently we are to only keep the in crowd doing what many a people love/wish to do. 

this behaviour is narrow minded and grotesque to the core and as adults you are the shame brought upon this side of the trade and i wash my hands of the stains of your stench.

i will be with-holding from further commenting on here but will happily see how many haters have the spare time on their hands to keep replying in this nasty manor like they have the right to constantly drown me and others with their big headed self obsessed narcissistic views yes for a stupid naive deluded person i know big big boys words.

dont get me wrong im not having a tantrum lol i am merely stating some home truths about a small select few that ruin this forums reputation for being a friendly place like it was a couple of years ago when i first joined.

bye to all have a good time and do not let them get at your we all have a bright future if we surpass the small minded ones. 

and to the small minded ones like say naturally wild i will see you in the future i will be that guy on the back of those books your grand kids read! 
: victory:


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## AJ76 (May 24, 2011)

Well some of the best advice you could have got for what you want to do would come from Naturally Wild. These people know their stuff! 

:banghead:


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

DavidR said:


> This is why you sound naive. You are determined to 'preserve African venomous snakes' (very admirable) but you don't know which species are threatened. There is only one antivenom producer in South Africa (and a number of French suppliers of other antivenoms for African snakes). Why do you need to extract venom as well? How many venom extractions have you done? How many have you done in the field under difficult circumstances? There is not a shortage of venom from 'common' species in Africa. Antivenom producers will not accept venom from anyone that turns up on their door.
> 
> David.


Benjaybo, I have read all 6 pages of this thread and I would like to make a few comments if I may. I have quoted DavidR's post above as I happen to agree with what he says. 

Before I go any further I guess I should qualify my position.... I don't have an inflated ego, far from it in fact..... but I do happen to be a professional Herpetolgist specialising in venomous snakes and working for a internationally renowned venom research lab. I rank as one of the most experienced venom extractors in the world..... and Rom Whitaker had me travel out to India specifically to extract venom for the One Million Snake-bite study as I have a reputation for my skill in extracting venom from Echis (Saw-Scale Vipers) and getting much better yields than Rom or any of his Indian workers were able to achieve. I'm not trying to big myself up or impress anyone, those just happen to be the cold, hard facts. So with that out of the way....

Venom extraction might look easy, (and for me it is).... but it takes quite a bit of training to be proficient. You have not said if it is yourself or someone else who would want to attempt these venom extractions? either way, it is an advanced procedure and you (or anyone else) would be foolish to try this without having first had one-on-one training from someone who specialises in doing this procedure.

It is one thing to do venom extractions in an air-conditioned lab with medical back-up and antivenom stored across the road in a major city hospital.... quite another to have to do venom extractions in developing countries, even more so in remote areas. For the Indian research project some of the venom extractions where done at a lodge, high up in the Indian Rainforest, hours away from the nearest hospital.... The Saw-scale vipers where done within a hospital complex as the hospital director had a particular interest in venomous snakes and snake bites.... still, I would not liked to have been bitten and have to have spent time in a Indian hospital.... the point I am trying to make is that doing venom extractions in unfamiliar conditions can increase the risks of having an accident.

Venom needs to be collected and prepared in an appropriate method in order to be of use for research..... fairly straightforward in our lab, but it takes more effort out in the field... in India we got the venoms on ice straight away and I then personally took them to a university to get them lyophilised .... again using older / less effective equipment than I have at work.

Venom research labs require that venom is collected by a competent person, prepared correctly, that the species it came from was correctly identified and the geographic location is known.

Antivenom producers have simliar requirements to venom labs, however will need larger quantities, often comprising "pooled" venom that has been collected from a good number of snakes within a certain geographic range. .... 

There are exceptional circumstances were experienced Herpetologists might be tasked in getting certain specific venoms, but for most of the commonly used venoms there is an established network of certified suppliers..... so I think you may appreciate from what I've said, that a few random samples collected by a unknown team will not be of much use for either research or AV production. So really it is a risk that need not be taken. 

I wish you luck in your venture, there are some decent people around who could help... just make sure your plans are realistic.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

PDR said:


> Benjaybo, I have read all 6 pages of this thread and I would like to make a few comments if I may. I have quoted DavidR's post above as I happen to agree with what he says.
> 
> Before I go any further I guess I should qualify my position.... I don't have an inflated ego, far from it in fact..... but I do happen to be a professional Herpetolgist specialising in venomous snakes and working for a internationally renowned venom research lab. I rank as one of the most experienced venom extractors in the world..... and Rom Whitaker had me travel out to India specifically to extract venom for the One Million Snake-bite study as I have a reputation for my skill in extracting venom from Echis (Saw-Scale Vipers) and getting much better yields than Rom or any of his Indian workers were able to achieve. I'm not trying to big myself up or impress anyone, those just happen to be the cold, hard facts. So with that out of the way....
> 
> ...


thank you very much for this paul, the plans are still very young in our minds as of yet but will be refining our main aims over this next year or three.

i do how ever wish to work with many a species of venomous snake before up taking this trip to film and if the blood sampling and milking isn't needed and is of no use to any research then it will not be done as the last thing i wish to do is put any animals through unnecessary pain or stress if it is not going to potentially make a difference.

i have found some really interesting internships with GVI with regards to getting hands on field work training.
i am also looking forward to getting future training with venomous snakes before i can keep them myself, as i will not keep them until i have extensive hook training and have the confidence with a few species already so i know i can move them safely for them and me so i can clean out enclosures, change waters, feed etc

again i would just like to say thank you for your input it is much appreciated chap.:2thumb:
ben


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## PDR (Nov 27, 2008)

Your welcome.... I like to help if I can.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

PDR said:


> Your welcome.... I like to help if I can.


and indeed you have, will keep in touch matey and will let you know how the travels, training and out look of the trip progresses.: victory:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

africa could use some clean water... and shoes...:whistling2:


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

HABU said:


> image
> 
> africa could use some clean water... and shoes...:whistling2:


indeed my friend


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

benjaybo said:


> indeed my friend


i can't for the life of me figure out why the u.s.... european countries... everyone, doesn't invest in africa... the chinese are... russia is...

there's such potential and a market there...

there's no excuse for africa being the way it is....


the u.k. or u.s. is absolute heaven to most of africa...


we bitch and moan about petty things... but most africans would see us as kings... the poorest of us look like rich folks... resources there... labor... consumers...

it's where to invest...


Lopez Lomong: From Sudanese 'Lost Boy' to U.S. Olympian | WORLD VISION BLOG


Running for My Life: One Lost Boy's Journey from the Killing Fields of Sudan ... - Lopez Lomong - Google Books


Lopez Lomong's Story: Tide US Athlete Video - YouTube


:2thumb::2thumb:

i welcome fine people like this gentleman...











Lopez Lomong, US Olympic runner, races for Sudanese children - News | FOX Sports on MSN


----------



## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

HABU said:


> i can't for the life of me figure out why the u.s.... european countries... everyone, doesn't invest in africa... the chinese are... russia is...
> 
> there's such potential and a market there...
> 
> ...


i agree fully with ya there, i try to complain as little as possible and also do good deeds for people as much as i can. plus we do live like kings we have stability even the poorest of folks have some sort of stability even if it is the doll office lol it pays for them to be off the streets and puts food in their bellies, clothes etc. indeed more people need to give five minutes for another sole. :2thumb:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

benjaybo said:


> i agree fully with ya there, i try to complain as little as possible and also do good deeds for people as much as i can. plus we do live like kings we have stability even the poorest of folks have some sort of stability even if it is the doll office lol it pays for them to be off the streets and puts food in their bellies, clothes etc. indeed more people need to give five minutes for another sole. :2thumb:


i was homeless for about a year...

been poor all my life for the most part...










been there, done that...

i fear hunger...


but the difference was that being here in america, no one was shooting at me... except the cops maybe from time to time...

most yanks have no idea of what real poverty is...

: victory:


but i climbed out of that... never forgot though... never will...


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

HABU said:


> i was homeless for about a year...
> 
> been poor all my life for the most part...
> 
> ...


glad to hear you got out of that very bad situation, i believe most do not know what real poverty actually is and i would never forgot if i had been through the same ordeal. at least you can say you have truly made it to the grass thats greener on the other side. :no1:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Ben,


I have just read through this whole thread (it was only at the end that I noticed it was a week or so old).

I hope you are able to take this post as constructive and do not react to it in the way you have reacted to some of the others. With the plans you have, you may have already burnt a few bridges that would have been very handy to have kept unburnt! Despite what people say about the forum (and internet forums in general) there are some exceedingly experienced, knowledgeable and respected people on these boards. I certainly hope to meet many more of them (and try to siphon off/absorb as much knowledge as possible from them!).


Anyway....


The reason that people posted as they did in reply to your thread was that you came on here and outlined plans for an expedition that was attempting to do more than an entire team of professional academics with unheard of levels of funding would be able to achieve in a life time. On top of this, a lot of the things you were planning seemed vague and not well thought out. This is why you were called 'naive'; it wasn't an insult, it was a valid description of your plans as you laid them out. On top of this, your outline was poorly written. Now, I know you have clearly explained the reasons for this, but as a professional myself, please take this advice on board: ALWAYS present yourself at your VERY BEST. This goes from initial emails to prospective sponsors and includes internet forum posts. A different approach to your initial post, making the effort to have it proof read and carefully put together, may even have attracted interest (even financial interest) from some of the members on here. Your highly defensive and often aggressive responses however where completely unnecessary and undid any 'benefit of the doubt' that you may have gained from explaining your difficultly with writing coherently.


If you'll permit me to summarise your current situation, I will then (hopefully) offer some advice for you based on where you are and where you want to be.

You have (very honourably and fair play to you) just got over a number of issues with substance abuse and, having got yourself clean, lost a huge amount of weight with a few more stone to go until you're at a weight your happy with. You are now trying to turn your life around and have dreams of working with venomous snakes, particularly in Africa.

To get to this goal, you recently completed a First diploma in Animal Care gained a distinction star (this is a level 2 course and equivalent to 4 A*'s at GCSE. You then enrolled on (I'm assuming) the Extended Diploma in Animal Management (a two year course that, once completed would gain anything from a triple Pass (Equivalent to two D's at A level) through to triple distinction star (equivalent to two A*'s and an A at A level). Unfortunately, due to financial reasons you had to withdraw from this course and work full-time as a chef, continuing your education independently in your spare time.

You are now in the initial planning stages of a field trip to South Africa to work in some way with venomous snakes in order to aid Conservation efforts and improve public perception.

(Please let me know if I've misread something along the lines!)


Now, firstly (without trying to sound patronising) - major kudos for sorting yourself out and for the planning of a positive and worthwhile future. You certainly deserve respect for that!.

Please feel free to ignore all of my advice that follows if you choose - that is your prerogative. I'm not trying to squash your dreams, but hopefully make them more realistic in the long term.

Firstly, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to play the long game. 2014 is a great target for a holiday to South Africa - it is however totally unrealistic as a target for a scientific expedition.

To start with a scientific expedition will need permission from local and national government departments and landowners, especially if you plan on performing invasive procedures, and these may prove very difficult to get if you are not backed by a professional organisation, especially in the light of your current level of education (like it or lump it, bits of paper open doors these days, and if you haven't got them then you need a hell of a lot of experience, a big reputation and a proven track record under you belt to bypass them (or potentially, very very deep pockets!)). Permission will be your first hurdle.

Secondly, money. Funding for conservation projects is notoriously difficult to get hold of. Funding to work with snakes is just as difficult. I would guess that most of the time the guys at LSTM and Bangor have is spent desperately trying to get hold of what little money there is - and it will definitely be difficult for them to get, even with years of experience and huge amounts of qualifications, reputation and publications backing them up. Funding an expedition isn't like saving up for a holiday - you'll need incredibly detailed and realistic plans, proper equipment, paperwork and permissions, and a good chunk of cash for contingencies. The plans will need to be accurate, detailed, justified and flexible. Whatever you currently have in your head for how much the expedition will cost, double it and add a zero!

Thirdly, the science. This is vital. Without a solid clear hypotheses, justifications, sets of aims and objectives, you have nothing. You have started with things like 'we'll take some venom' or 'we'll take some blood to check for disease'. This may be another reason that your initial thread didn't go the way you planned. In scientific conservation studies, you identify the problem and find the hole in the research, and only then do you start to formulate the scientific method by which you are going to research the area and then plug it with solid data on which you can base ideas for solutions. It is also little things like 'I'm going to contact the company that makes $22 dollar micro-identification chips for pets and ask them to 'add a GPS into them' that may have led to a few members not taking you as seriously as you'd have liked. The field of tracking animals in the wild has been well established for many many years with thousands of people around the globe spending their entire careers either using the technology or developing it or selling it. It is a multimillion pound industry, I've no doubt. If it is currently financially and technologically possible, it is already being done (and it will be cheaper to buy expensive ones from the guys already doing it (if they exist) than asking a company that makes something else to redevelop their technology. Again, going for a herping holiday and taking your camcorder is very different from mounting a scientific endeavour.


Nat Geo may also be pretty difficult. Despite evidence to the contrary looking at some of the rubbish that gets shown on there, the world of TV is ridiculously competitive, even for those already well established within the industry. Even 'low budget' documentaries cost tens of thousands of pounds. Nat Geo will get thousands of people a week contacting them with ideas and requests for funding. Again, you will find it very difficult to get anything other than standard automated responses, especially as an 'independent'. If you go and make your mini-documentary, publish it on line and it turns out great, THEN you might have better luck getting attracting funding for future things.


Here's the reality.

The odds are massively stacked against you due to your situation. Without qualifications, professional or corporate backing, a well established reputation or very very deep pockets, you are going to find your vision incredibly difficult. I'm not saying its impossible, or that you should give up and concentrate on the cooking. I'm saying that you will face additional barriers and issues than others in a field that is incredibly difficult, frustrating and time consuming even to those already established within it.


Currently, I believe that if you carry on on your current path you will end up at best with a nice video of you and some mates taking an interesting trip to South Africa to see some snakes. You may even get to meet some very interesting people and learn some new skills.


However, I believe that with a few adjustments, you could achieve things along the lines of your vision in the first post in the long term.


Things I think you could do to help yourself achieve your goal.

1 - Reduce the scope of your plans, make them more focussed and increase your time scale. 

2* - Return to education and get the relevant qualifications and whilst doing it, pursue the experience you'll need to successfully run expeditions in the future.

3 - Focus on your long term goal and work on building a positive reputation in the field. This will be your biggest asset in future planning

4 - Aim to join another expedition as a paying volunteer within the next three to four years.

5 - Aim for running and leading them in 6-10 years.




* This may be a little tricky. Having withdrawn from a Lv3 course in Animal Management, the government will no longer pay your tuition fees to repeat the same course (you would have already had to pay course fees as you were over 19). Typically, the course fees for 19+ are £3-400 a year. Tuition fees are 4-5 grand. (This is for FE courses as well as HE - this isn't well known, as most people on FE courses have the fees paid by the government without even knowing about it!).
You could get around it by taking a similar course, maybe in Agriculture, Horticulture or (perhaps best for you) Conservation/Countryside Management. Then you would only have to pay the course fees not tuition fees. It may not seem exactly what you want to do, but the reason you need a lv3 qual is to get the grades needed for university. A relevant course at uni could then open a hundred doors in terms of scientific field research. It would also allow you to make many contacts and use the expertise of the experts to give you experience. This could then lead onto a very successful career doing all the things you talk about in your original post and more!





The education is not the only way to do what you want to do, but I think without it, you will have a much harder road to get taken seriously in the field and for your expeditions to be provide valuable contributions to herpetology.




Sorry about the length of the post - went into on a bit!

Good luck in whatever road you choose, I hope it all works out in the end.


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

bothrops said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> 
> I have just read through this whole thread (it was only at the end that I noticed it was a week or so old).
> ...


 Thats great thank you for this information, I currently am starting to save up and am looking into some l3 college courses in wildlife conservation and related subjects, then hopefully on to university. 
As for experience I am also saving up to go on some paid volunteer field trips and there is a couple of courses/internships 
Conservation Internship in Costa Rica | GVI


Safari Field Guide Course in South Africa | GVI


these are 2 of a few that I am interested in doing which will provide me with 18 months of training/experience in the field etc. 
also there are some of these trips I would also like to go on before the internships which are a little easier on the bank haha,
http://www.greigsmithtravels.com (thank to I believe is dave sorry if this is the wrong person I have to get off to work asap)
and 
http://greenvolunteers.com


I am interested in working within various different coutries and environments so will be going on a very varied array of trips.
I am tight-ish on money but for these trips I will be putting 70% of the money (depending on actual income after sales etc)I earn from breeding my reptiles into the kitty, which frees me up for paying for college and other things.


I have also re-evaluated my time scale a bit more and am planning to still go to Africa in 2014 but it will be only a small group for a personal study and mainly a herping holiday as I was unrealistic with my aims, I just wish from the start people could have actually explained things properly to me like you and pdr have and a few others too.


I have never intended to burn bridges but I honestly did not think people would attack the way I say chap and matey etc which is nothing to do with what I plan to do and is merely people being way too over particular. It is a shame as if they had met me in person we would probably get on as I have not been myself for most of this thread I straight away went on the defensive at the comments. 


Anyway I would like to say thank you again for your post I have to get off to work but I will keep fighting to get to where I want to be, even I am not getting there till im 38+ as hope to have a long career and would also like to write many books in my time.


at the moment i am creating my own little pocket sized field guide booklet for extra help with refreshing my memory and keeping it in my head :lol2:
and is just handy to have i will after sorting all species of viperidae and a select amount of elapidae be putting them into localties within the world and placing venom type and properties it hold etc.


Have a good day 

i will keep posted on my progress in the future. : victory:


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## Gaboon (Jun 20, 2005)

Beware of "gap-year" companies skimming off huge profits. Many of these companies really leave a lot to be desired! 


Try, Volunteer Abroad in South & Central America | Volunteer Work Abroad 

I don't work for them but I admire their ethos.

They charge you only to put together a list of contacts working at the moment on projects matching your preferences. 

Many of the projects are basically free. 

Also be concious of the fact you will be potentially taking work from a struggling local economy that is in dire need of that work. Try and be selective.

Good luck!!


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## benjaybo (Oct 31, 2009)

Gaboon said:


> Beware of "gap-year" companies skimming off huge profits. Many of these companies really leave a lot to be desired!
> 
> 
> Try, Volunteer Abroad in South & Central America | Volunteer Work Abroad
> ...


cheers for that, i will keep this in mind :2thumb: thanks for the site will give it a good going over in the morning or after i finish work tomoz night : victory:


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