# Caribbean boas



## LiasisUK

Been a fan of the unusual boa species of the Caribbean for a long time, have had Jamaican Boas for a number of years but never actively pursued more species. However this changed after the successful breeding of our Jamaican Boas (_Chilabothrus subflavus_) in 2021, and so have since added a few more species to the collection.

First some pics of the Jamaicans, adults and juveniles.

























Next the most commonly kept member of the genus, though their availability has lessened in the last few years. The Cuban Boa (_Chilabothrus angulifer_), the largest Caribbean species and one of the longest boas in the world.

The female is in shed and gravid in this image, we are waiting on her to give birth. I expect this to be at the end of this month (August 22 --- EDIT: I was very wrong).

















Next we have the Hispaniolan Boa, sometimes referred to as the Haitian or Dominican Red Mountain Boa (_Chilabothrus striatus striatus_). I imported these earlier this year from Europe, and I have to say they have surpassed my expectations. I really really rate them, they're much easier to deal with than the species mentioned previously in terms of temperament.
An extreme red form of this species exists and as far as I am aware the inheritance of it is not fully understood. The red colour increases as they age, and ours are a bit red however I don't think they will ever be as red as some seen online (like this one for example). I still think they're great looking animals and am excited to see how they look as they grow. I have found a breeder in Europe of extreme red animals so I may try and add 1 or 2 at a later date.


















Not the same genus, but we also acquired an adult pair of Black-Tailed Dwarf Boas (_Tropidophis melanurus_), also called Cuban Wood Snake, Cuban Dwarf Boa, Dusky Dwarf Boa, or the Giant Trope.

_Tropidophis _are a genus of dwarf Boa from the Caribbean, they are very seldom kept in captivity as most species are specialist lizard feeders. _T. melanurus_ are the largest member of the genus, attaining a 'massive' 90cm, and so have a more varied diet which makes them more suitable captives. I don't know of anyone else in the UK with these, I would be interested if there is anyone else working with them as if I breed them I'd like to exchange bloodlines.

These have to be one of, if not the weirdest snakes I have ever kept. They're very shy and nervous but do not bite, they feel almost like a colubrid rather than any boa. They musk quite heavily, or at least my animals do. These animals are also able to autohaemorrhage blood from their eyes as a defence response, though I haven't seen this myself.

I did pair them and witnessed mating behaviour in late spring, the female looks large at present but is feeding and not acting out of the ordinary but who's to know as data on these animals is limited.


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## mooselee

Wow! Amazing snakes.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Excellent write up on all three species.


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## LiasisUK

Thanks Lee! 

Thanks Fraser! I could have written more, but I feel not everyone cares to hear the rambling haha


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## NickN

The Hispaniolan Boa is particularly attractive of the above - lovely red colouration. I assume there must be a reason they are not more popular - but you mentioned that temperament is pretty good, so is it diet or husbandry requirements perhaps?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

Niche species always seem to have a small but dedicated following.

The 'buzz species' at the moment seems to be Brazilian Rainbow Boa - strange that this popularity seems to coincide with morphs of this species being more readily available!!


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## LiasisUK

NickN said:


> The Hispaniolan Boa is particularly attractive of the above - lovely red colouration. I assume there must be a reason they are not more popular - but you mentioned that temperament is pretty good, so is it diet or husbandry requirements perhaps?


I mean, why is anything popular? Why are certain bands more liked than others? Why do certain films receive such mixed reviews? Lots of factors at play.

Short answer:
As adults they're easy to keep, feed and breed.
They just aren't very well known and there aren't very many about. That's essentially it.

Long answer:
Similar to Australian species legal import of them (and all Caribbean fauna) from the wild has been essentially impossible for a long time, I can't remember when this came into effect, I believe it may have been the 80s. There weren't many present in captivity before this ban so not much of a founder population, so there just isn't very many about. Those that are around were deemed expensive for what they are and not very well known so not really on peoples radar.

Important to remember there's 'rare unusual species' and then there's truly rare and truly unusual species. Many, for example something like a Fiji Iguana or a Green Tree Monitor are famous for being hard to get, they are renowned for being rare and expensive, and that makes them desirable as you are told they are rare. But if they are truly that rare how come you can buy them? Or how come you have heard of them? Then there's animals that are rare in the wild and common in captivity like Crested Geckos, or those that are rare in captivity but common in the wild like many Australian agamids, like _Ctenophorus _species. The reptile market is a weird one, and everyone has different tastes.

I rambled a bit, but no they're not too difficult to keep and breed these days, obviously this was different in the past, as keeping any reptile in say the 70s to 90s was hard. The main issue with all _Chilabothrus _species (except the Cubans) is that the babies are born small, shy and are also obligate lizard feeders and so are very difficult to establish. The reason they aren't popular is because not many people are working with them, and those that are often swap animals amongst themselves to keep the diminishing captive bloodlines as healthy as possible, this goes for many species and not just these snakes. Truly rare species are treated as such and it is less about the market value and more about the animals themselves.


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## NickN

Thanks for both short and long answers, all helps me to expand my knowledge and is a good explanation. Like many so-called "underrated" species a lot does seem to depend on trends, and, these days more than in the past, influence from social media too.


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## LiasisUK

It is no problem at all!
I think it's important to find species that interest you, and not just get what other people say is good. Social media is definitely very good at influencing and pushing species almost randomly, and sometimes species that aren't really that suitable. For example a couple of years ago social media seemed to suddenly become aware of white lip pythons and the prices on them sky rocketed, albeit was partially to do with Indo exports becoming limited, but nonetheless some were selling at £1000+. A species that in 2016 I bought for £100..... it's all very odd sometimes.


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## Swindinian

_Thanks for sharing Tom 👏👏

Please do more ‘rambling on’ if you don’t mind, as although some comments may seem obvious to you, to some of us, it provides a great insight into areas we just don’t know about, and may never get access to.

Would love to see more Chilabothrus striatus striatus and subflavus 🥰_

Andy


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## Swindinian

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> Niche species always seem to have a small but dedicated following.
> 
> The 'buzz species' at the moment seems to be Brazilian Rainbow Boa - strange that this popularity seems to coincide with morphs of this species being more readily available!!


There are some interesting looking wipeout and piebald morphs, however, a decent example of a natural phenotype is hard to beat in my opinion.

I wish there had been greater endeavours towards localities and ancestry, but that goes for virtually all of our captive stock.


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I used to breed several different species of Rainbow Boa and had quite considerable success but hardly anyone was interested in the babies - same with Dumerils and Madagascar Ground Boas.

Now older (definately) and wiser (most likely not) I keep the species I like and pay no attention to what others do and I must say I am much happier for it and enjoy the hobby far more. Animals are not pokemons and you don't have to keep or breed them all which is You Tube was to be believed you would call me a liar. 

Sorry to hijack your thread Tom but if I knew how to upload pictures I may do a thread of my own on my little menagerie.



Swindinian said:


> There are some interesting looking wipeout and piebald morphs, however, a decent example of a natural phenotype is hard to beat in my opinion.
> 
> I wish there had been greater endeavours towards localities and ancestry, but that goes for virtually all of our captive stock.


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## Swindinian

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I used to breed several different species of Rainbow Boa and had quite considerable success but hardly anyone was interested in the babies - same with Dumerils and Madagascar Ground Boas.
> 
> Now older (definately) and wiser (most likely not) I keep the species I like and pay no attention to what others do and I must say I am much happier for it and enjoy the hobby far more. Animals are not pokemons and you don't have to keep or breed them all which is You Tube was to be believed you would call me a liar.
> 
> Sorry to hijack your thread Tom but if I knew how to upload pictures I may do a thread of my own on my little menagerie.


Fraser, what spp of Epicrates did you keep? The Paraguayan and Argentine seem to be pretty rare in the hobby; from what I’ve seen, the pattern on the Argentine seem rather appealing.

Also, you manage to upload photos to Facebook, how come not on here?


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I just don't know how?

I used to keep _E. maurus, E. cenchria, E. alvarezi and E. assisi _


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## al stotton

Those Jamaicans 💙


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## LiasisUK

Cheers Al.

No worries Fraser and Andy. I too recently jumped on the rainbow boa band wagon but more by accident as I was gifted a pair. Has to be said I should have got them sooner.


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## The1972

Swindinian said:


> Fraser, what spp of Epicrates did you keep? The Paraguayan and Argentine seem to be pretty rare in the hobby; from what I’ve seen, the pattern on the Argentine seem rather appealing.
> 
> Also, you manage to upload photos to Facebook, how come not on here?


Theres a lot more diversity in captive keeping and breeding than is generally known, theres a lot of keepers that don't use forums or FB groups as selling points or platforms to inform the world of their greatness in all things reptilian, they keep themselves to themselves and just enjoy their hobby, these are my Argentine rainbows,


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## ian14

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I just don't know how?
> 
> I used to keep _E. maurus, E. cenchria, E. alvarezi and E. assisi _


All you need to do is to use the paperclip icon that appears under the reply box. Tap/click on it and it will then allow you to upload an image. It gives you the option of thumbnail or full sized image. Select the image from your files, then post your reply and voila!


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## Central Scotland Reptiles

I tend to log in on my work PC so don't have any pictures of my animals stored on it. 

Although I did log in on my phone last night and was able to upload some pictures to my Egyptian Tortoise thread so I may give other picture posts a try.



ian14 said:


> All you need to do is to use the paperclip icon that appears under the reply box. Tap/click on it and it will then allow you to upload an image. It gives you the option of thumbnail or full sized image. Select the image from your files, then post your reply and voila!


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## Swindinian

Central Scotland Reptiles said:


> I tend to log in on my work PC so don't have any pictures of my animals stored on it.
> 
> Although I did log in on my phone last night and was able to upload some pictures to my Egyptian Tortoise thread so I may give other picture posts a try.


Ahhh, if the pics aren’t stored on the operating system you use, then you won’t be able to upload them.

I tend to take pics using my iPhone, but access RFUK on a tablet. I either make an effort to take pics on the tablet or email pics over. 
In contrast, I use a separate work tablet to access Facebook groups; that device seems to produce very washed out photos, so don’t share many pics on Facebook. Plus my photos on Facebook always come out small, and appear poor quality (not sure why).
I daren’t use a cloud system to store/ retrieve photos because I don’t want them all linking up/syncing.


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## LiasisUK

The1972 said:


> Theres a lot more diversity in captive keeping and breeding than is generally known, theres a lot of keepers that don't use forums or FB groups as selling points or platforms to inform the world of their greatness in all things reptilian, they keep themselves to themselves and just enjoy their hobby, these are my Argentine rainbows,


Yes 100% there's so many people out there that keep all sorts of things, and you just don't hear about them. Often as they just aren't inclined or don't have time, if I didn't have to sit down for a few hours per day for work I would barely post anything as there's always something to do at home.

It is so often the people that shout the loudest that have the least to say.

For example when I was a table holder at a Doncaster show back in around 2016 (something like that) I was sharing a table with a friend who had just bred a load of False Water Cobras that needed new homes. A gentleman we did not recognise came to the table and was asking about them, he was asking all the correct questions but came across inexperienced in the species, not a problem. My friend asked him what he mainly kept and his response was 'I mainly keep Snow Leopards'. He wasn't kidding, he did have about 5 snow leopards.


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## LiasisUK

As we were discussing Rainbow boas, I thought I would take some pics of the ones I have in the collection at the moment. I was kindly given this pair on loan by a friend. They're apparently het for some morphs, which I think is effecting their appearance as they look different to wild type Brazilians I've dealt with in the past. 
Male first two pics, then the female.


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## Swindinian

Those are two very different looking rainbow boas! 
Male with a very prominent outline, and female with almost a blending/ fading outline.

I have a female (Emilia CB19) whose parents were very much a contrast. 
She was the most vibrant neonate out of all the ones I acquired.
Had hoped that she would develop the bloodred purple background of her Mum, but she went more towards the orange.


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## LiasisUK

Yes, they're very odd. I am looking forward to seeing what their offspring look like. I think the morphs they have is what makes them odd looking, but in a nice way, however I think it may also effect their size as they are about 5 years old and not as big as wild types I've seen of the same age. They have grown a bit since I've had them though, as I feed large prey items haha.


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## LiasisUK

Still waiting for her to drop!! She's looking huge. 










(Just in tub whilst cleaning her viv)


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## Morphman

Nice to see something different. Years ago we used to keep quite a few Haitian tree boas, they were quite common down here in pet shops at the time. Not seen often these days, very nice!


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## LiasisUK

Litter of cuban boas born last night after the longest wait! I was convinced the would birth in September, but no October and November went by with nothing. 

1 slug, 8 babies, unfortunately 2 were still born; 1 looked deformed the other looked normal, externally anyway. So 6 healthy babies, and my goodness are they huge! They're like baby burmese pythons! Absolutely insane compared to the Jamaicans tiny shoelace babies. 

Pics when they have shed and are less gloopy.


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## Swindinian

LiasisUK said:


> Litter of cuban boas born last night after the longest wait! I was convinced the would birth in September, but no October and November went by with nothing.
> 
> 1 slug, 8 babies, unfortunately 2 were still born; 1 looked deformed the other looked normal, externally anyway. So 6 healthy babies, and my goodness are they huge! They're like baby burmese pythons! Absolutely insane compared to the Jamaicans tiny shoelace babies.
> 
> Pics when they have shed and are less gloopy.


Congrats Tom!
Do you think the sudden weather change this week stimulated the birth in some way? 

Not suggesting a tropical species needs snow fall 🤣, but has been a fairly dramatic change in weather.


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## LiasisUK

I'm not sure in all honesty, she lives in the 'tropical room' where it stays warmer, but of course still having a dip due to the frozen winter weather we are having. 

It's definitely encouraging some breeding behaviour in the pythons and boas. Most of which don't behave in this way until Jan/Feb.


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## LiasisUK

Couple of images. Last one showing mum in a tub whilst I cleaned her vivarium out after the birth.


























I'll get more pics of the babies after they've shed


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## LiasisUK

First 2 babies have shed 



















These are less than 2 weeks old! You can see how big they are for newborns. As a comparison there's a pic in the first post in this thread of 2 Jamaican Boas in my hand, those animals are 10 months old in that image.


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## ian14

Those really are beasts! Lovely snakes


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## ian14

NickN said:


> The Hispaniolan Boa is particularly attractive of the above - lovely red colouration. I assume there must be a reason they are not more popular - but you mentioned that temperament is pretty good, so is it diet or husbandry requirements perhaps?


A fair few years back they could be picked up for around £40 each as babies. However they had a terrible reputation ad being highly aggressive and almost impossible to get babies to feed. I remember the head of a large public reptile collection stating he had had a litter born and had euthanasia them all as he didn't want to get stuck with them. They were never popular because of the reputation they had.
I took on a very young juvenile that came in as a hitchhiker in a banana shipment. He/she was actually very docile, and fed on defrost mice from day 1 so I'm not too sure how accurate their reputation was.
Years down the line, you dont see them because very few people wanted them, despite being hardy and easy to keep.


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## lee.1985

Some cracking boas you have there.
nice to see the Jamaicans, not often seen but except animals.


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## LiasisUK

Cuban boa update: All the babies ate first time with no issues on Rat Pups. I will check genders this weekend and see what we got.


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## Thrasops

Great news on the babies Tom, well done.

Going back a few months to some earlier comments... There are indeed a lot of keepers that don't use forums or FB groups as selling points or platforms to inform the world of their greatness in all things reptilian. Some of the most experienced and knowledgeable keepers I know don't use social media.

And then there are the keepers that have been banned for years from these forums, yet keep joining up under different accounts and usernames, only to get banned again. One wonders why they go to all that effort if they don't want to be here?

Anyway here are some Brazilian Rainbow boas I bred, I remember taking babies to Ally Chapman at Waterlife about 12-15 years ago and one nailing her right between the eyes when she picked it up. Was a funny moment though she took it like the champ she is.



















That said I have to say I much preferred the Colombian Rainbows for their personality, hardiness and lack of fuss of the babies. I always found them far more tractable and no-nonsense.



















Happy New Year!


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## ian14

Ally getting bit?? I bet she stayed as calm as you like. Such a shame that Waterlife went downhill as they did, Ally did an amazing job with the reptile shop there. A real loss there for the area. 
Lovely BRB's too.
I wonder if it's a thing with rainbows going for the eyes?
A long, long time ago I went with a friend of mine to a reptile rescue in Essex. They had a Colombian rainbow for rehoming that he kindly agreed to take. However, they were also being filmed for a TV series about their work and asked if he would be happy to be filmed.
For the life of me, I cannot remember the name of the rescue, or the series they were featured in.
However, if you ever come across footage of a bloke getting bit full on in the face by a Colombian rainbow boa at an Essex rescue centre, immediately followed by the sound of laughter, that was me laughing in sympathy 🤣


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## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> Ally getting bit?? I bet she stayed as calm as you like. Such a shame that Waterlife went downhill as they did, Ally did an amazing job with the reptile shop there. A real loss there for the area.
> Lovely BRB's too.
> I wonder if it's a thing with rainbows going for the eyes?
> A long, long time ago I went with a friend of mine to a reptile rescue in Essex. They had a Colombian rainbow for rehoming that he kindly agreed to take. However, they were also being filmed for a TV series about their work and asked if he would be happy to be filmed.
> For the life of me, I cannot remember the name of the rescue, or the series they were featured in.
> However, if you ever come across footage of a bloke getting bit full on in the face by a Colombian rainbow boa at an Essex rescue centre, immediately followed by the sound of laughter, that was me laughing in sympathy 🤣


She barely even flinched. Always very calm dealing with pissy snakes. Similar thing happened with a baby Cuban boa she got in once.
I definitely miss her there. She was always happy to add stuff onto imports for me or order in anything unusual.


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## ian14

Thrasops said:


> She barely even flinched. Always very calm dealing with pissy snakes. Similar thing happened with a baby Cuban boa she got in once.
> I definitely miss her there. She was always happy to add stuff onto imports for me or order in anything unusual.


Waterlife was my go to shop as it was just 10 minutes up the road from me. Always had a great variety from common to rare species. I got my pygmy chams from them, and my CH rough greens.
Fairly sure I said hi to you there once as well.
Unfortunately it's now just a very poor aquatics shop.


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## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> Great news on the babies Tom, well done.
> 
> Going back a few months to some earlier comments... There are indeed a lot of keepers that don't use forums or FB groups as selling points or platforms to inform the world of their greatness in all things reptilian. Some of the most experienced and knowledgeable keepers I know don't use social media.
> 
> And then there are the keepers that have been banned for years from these forums, yet keep joining up under different accounts and usernames, only to get banned again. One wonders why they go to all that effort if they don't want to be here?
> 
> Anyway here are some Brazilian Rainbow boas I bred, I remember taking babies to Ally Chapman at Waterlife about 12-15 years ago and one nailing her right between the eyes when she picked it up. Was a funny moment though she took it like the champ she is.
> 
> View attachment 370631
> 
> 
> View attachment 370632
> 
> 
> That said I have to say I much preferred the Colombian Rainbows for their personality, hardiness and lack of fuss of the babies. I always found them far more tractable and no-nonsense.
> 
> View attachment 370633
> 
> 
> View attachment 370634
> 
> 
> Happy New Year!


Thanks Francis! Happy New Year to you as well  

More and more keepers I know are shying away from social media, myself included, it is often so toxic these days. I spend most of my social media in groups about zoos and mammals and avoid reptile keeper ones. This forum is the only place I am a 'regular' and I try and keep a lot calmer than I once was haha.

I remember the Waterlife shop, I used to enjoy going there. 

I am tempted by some Columbians, though I would like some het Leucistic ones (sorrynotsorry).


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## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> Thanks Francis! Happy New Year to you as well
> 
> More and more keepers I know are shying away from social media, myself included, it is often so toxic these days. I spend most of my social media in groups about zoos and mammals and avoid reptile keeper ones. This forum is the only place I am a 'regular' and I try and keep a lot calmer than I once was haha.
> 
> I remember the Waterlife shop, I used to enjoy going there.
> 
> I am tempted by some Columbians, though I would like some het Leucistic ones (sorrynotsorry).


I found the Colombians great pets but obviously they are much less attractive than the Brazilians or Argentines (I never kept the latter but was tempted a few times). Ultimately they went with most of the other pythons and boas I used to have around 2011 when I thought I was emigrating, I don't think I would keep Rainbows again but I do miss Carpet pythons a lot and will probably get some Rosy Boas this year.

I also no longer really interact all that much with reptile keeper groups online, although there are still a few good ones I frequent. It does make me wonder what effect it will have on the hobby if all the experienced keepers stop interacting and commenting though. That said, for me personally I just sort of got... bored... of talking to strangers about keeping reptiles on social media. I read through and comment now and then when I am at work during quiet periods and that is it. I'm sure we all have our own private cliques of people that we get most of our 'reptile keeper' chat out of our system with.

I find herping, snake identification and natural history groups far more interesting though and still frequent a lot of those.

The reason I commented on that score though is I am starting to wonder if people even realise how many times the person you were replying to has been banned from here and come back under a different alias. Original account was blocked around a decade ago now. Which I thought was really ironic.


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## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> That said, for me personally I just sort of got... bored... of talking to strangers about keeping reptiles on social media. I read through and comment now and then when I am at work during quiet periods and that is it. I'm sure we all have our own private cliques of people that we get most of our 'reptile keeper' chat out of our system with.


Definitely agree with this, social media is quite boring. Yes exactly, I talk reptiles with my partner, and have various reptile keeper friends who I can just call if I fancy a reptile chat/rant. 

I am enjoying keeping the rainbows, they are nice animals. The only carpets I would keep again would be Bredl's I really like that species, it is such a shame they are now not really valued by anyone. 



Thrasops said:


> The reason I commented on that score though is I am starting to wonder if people even realise how many times the person you were replying to has been banned from here and come back under a different alias. Original account was blocked around a decade ago now. Which I thought was really ironic.


I'll be honest I have no idea who they are haha


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## Thrasops

LiasisUK said:


> Definitely agree with this, social media is quite boring. Yes exactly, I talk reptiles with my partner, and have various reptile keeper friends who I can just call if I fancy a reptile chat/rant.
> 
> I am enjoying keeping the rainbows, they are nice animals. The only carpets I would keep again would be Bredl's I really like that species, it is such a shame they are now not really valued by anyone.


Rainbows are cute snakes and pleasant to handle as adults, at the moment though space for me is at a premium for any snake more than about four feet in length so I have to think very carefully these days about what I bring into my collection. Not just because of space but also because anything I buy now I am likely to still have by the time I retire. So I am very strict with myself these days.

I remember when I was into pythons Bredl's were the Rolls Royce of the Carpet world and were fetching over £2k to begin with and then down to 'just' £800 - £1200. A bit rich for me personally, even now.

Shocking how cheap they are now, definitely forgotten gems. Although I have to admit I prefer a nice Irian Jaya or Cheynei personally.



LiasisUK said:


> I'll be honest I have no idea who they are haha


Maybe from before your time here lol


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## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> Waterlife was my go to shop as it was just 10 minutes up the road from me. Always had a great variety from common to rare species. I got my pygmy chams from them, and my CH rough greens.
> Fairly sure I said hi to you there once as well.
> Unfortunately it's now just a very poor aquatics shop.


I got some of those baby Rough Greens too at one point, from the breeding trio they had on the counter?
I also sold babies back to them at one point.
I have not been there for over a decade, not since Ally and Amanda left. Just was never what it used to be.


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## LiasisUK

Thrasops said:


> I got some of those baby Rough Greens too at one point, from the breeding trio they had on the counter?
> I also sold babies back to them at one point.
> I have not been there for over a decade, not since Ally and Amanda left. Just was never what it used to be.


I went back in around 2018. All the reptiles had moved into the corner of this fish bit and the old reptile building was empty. The selection was very basic and not that well kept, that may have changed in the last 4 years, I have not been back.


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## ian14

Thrasops said:


> I got some of those baby Rough Greens too at one point, from the breeding trio they had on the counter?
> I also sold babies back to them at one point.
> I have not been there for over a decade, not since Ally and Amanda left. Just was never what it used to be.


They were the ones! The shop itself has closed, it's just the aquatics shop now with a half a dozen vivs in a small corner. 
I remember when I was very young there used to be a public display there with sharks.


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## Thrasops

ian14 said:


> They were the ones! The shop itself has closed, it's just the aquatics shop now with a half a dozen vivs in a small corner.
> I remember when I was very young there used to be a public display there with sharks.


Yep I remember that! There was a Lemon shark and a Grey Nurse shark in there and they charged £2 admission I think.
We went when we were on holiday to the UK from Gibraltar in the early nineties before we moved over, I think.


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