# Dwarf rats....maybe??????



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Well I kept htese quiet until now as I didnt' know what was going to happen with them.

They are almost 8 months old and absolutely tiny.
Here are pics of them next to my rats of the same age.

The buck next to a cinnamon of mine born 2 days before.









Another pic.









The doe next to an agouti of mine born 4-5 days after her and her brother.










Another pic.










These 'tinies' are not from my lines and I will explain how they came about when I've heard what others thoughts are about them as to what they are and why they are as they are.
Since birth they have had the same food, environment and upbringing as all the babies born here and they are the first to turn out like htis.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

i know nothing about rats i know im scard of them beacuse of their size teeth and tails though! BUT a small one.. i would love a small one. When i see ladyboid i love the little ones she had...
i wish there was a dwarf type rat! i woudl have one!! (even if the OH would kill me...) lol

Gina


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

These are more or less fully grown now at the size of around 6-8 week olds.


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## freekygeeky (May 25, 2007)

saxon said:


> These are more or less fully grown now at the size of around 6-8 week olds.


what are they like compared to a mouse? (size wise?)
Have you ever had tiny ones from that pairing before?


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## Minerva (Aug 24, 2008)

Different lines have different sizes, could just be a genuinely small line?

the Dwarf gene is only existant in america i think and germany if i remember correctly, and is a seperate gene...

Nice rats though.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

freekygeeky said:


> what are they like compared to a mouse? (size wise?)
> Have you ever had tiny ones from that pairing before?


They aren't from any of my rats.

I'll explain the situation when I've had some replies from 'rattie' people because I don't want how these came about to influence their thoughts just yet.

Laura,

Parents were average sized adults. Buck was rather large to be honest.


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## Issa (Oct 13, 2006)

Go on, I'll bite...... Is it a genetic or line-bred trait? I'm currently trying for the other extreme (on the lookout for white labs to cross to my hairless as they are rather scrawny compared to my furrys).


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Issa said:


> Go on, I'll bite...... Is it a genetic or line-bred trait? I'm currently trying for the other extreme (on the lookout for white labs to cross to my hairless as they are rather scrawny compared to my furrys).


 
No I've not bred these. They 'occurred' in some rats that were brought to me..
I'm doing the same with my hairless, tring to put size into them, same with my RB's as well.
This is not something that anyone would do on purpose I don't think. Although I've been asked to try and breed the two siblings to see if it's a 'different' gene. I actually culled the rest of the litter at around 5 weeks old because I thought there was a major health problem but these two, that I kept because a lab tech asked me to, theset wo are fighting fit so now I wished I'd let the other live!
There is another 'anomaly' about this litter that I will divulge in a bit.

Here's a pic of the doe next to a russian blue agouti doe I bred that is 'just' 6 weeks now.


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## Mischievous_Mark (Mar 16, 2008)

One of the boys i got from Michelle is considerably smaller than the other two infact hes tiny compared to them now and one of the babies i have which will be 8 week on tuesday is smaller than her brothers and sisters...

Also Dawn the RB i got off you is massive! If only she was younger i could of mated her with the Roan boy i got off Jen because he too is now huge!

anyway ill get pictures tomorrow of my little male compared to the other two males hes in with and the little girl.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Mark that doe in the pic with the russian blue agouti is 8 months old. The RBA is a doe and is only just 6 weeks.
The RBA is about average for a 6 week old kitten I think.

I wouldn't put roan into RB in any event the kittens turn out crap. I'd let people who like breeding roans get on with it. I tried it and the babies were just not what I wanted. 


Ok I'll tell how these babies came about....

Before Xmas I was brought two pair of roan rats. Each cage had a buck and doe with kittens in it. I seperated the bucks straight away but the two does gave birth again within about a week. I had to wean the previous litter although they were lucky to be 4 weeks old.
Both litters were normal roan litters and I rehomed them no problem. They were of average size and of good health.
One doe had another normal roan litter, however, one had a 'funny' litter than I actually thought at 4 weeks were going to be hairless. I couldn't understand how as the whole litter had no fur at 4 weeks old and the parents, according to the previous owner had no hairless in the ancestry.

At around 5 weeks these little things started to develop 'tufts' of fur on their bodies. This fur took about 10 days to develop fully and looked 'roaned out' as oppsoed to being darker and then roaning out. They ahve not changed in colour at all since they grew their fur.
At this time I culled 8 from the ten, I didnt' want to pass on kittens if there could be a problem with them, only keeping one buck and one doe as I'd been asked to do so by 'a friend of a friend' who worked in the labs.
Throughout this time the kittens seemed 'on a par' size wise with the other does litter. They then seemed to stop growing and just never have since. They are very little bigger than when they were 6-7 weeks old.
They have had the same food, environment and handling as all babies born here.

I have been asked to breed the siblings to see if this is a hereditary phenomenom.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I suspect it's more a case of circumstance than genetics, given the care of the mothers previously and the drain on their "resources". Good luck with them


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

there is a lady on here that has n breeds mini/pygmy/dwarf (what ever u call it lol) rats, she imported them i think, there was a thread about it somewhere. i know her user name but she may not want 2 be meantioned so il see if she see the thread.

i have got one tiny rat 2 all her litter sis n bros were big but she stayed small very healthy but small she was never a runt or anything?? very strange i still have her but she is just a pet n very cute in mini. i dont want 2 breed her 2 see if she produes smaller babies or anything tho coz i like big rats u may as well have a mouse if u like small rats :lol2:


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

*dawrf rats*

i have 5 dawrf here am planning on to breed them in late july i imported them from the usa and ive breed a few my self i shall take photos of them two night and post them on here.i have noctied no health probs in the line at the moment and i hope this keeps going on


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> u may as well have a mouse if u like small rats :lol2:


:lol2: Quite true.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I like my rats big. Although I have a dinky little girl coming (not for breeding) who is very cute, I do prefer bigger rats.

Unless you've imported true dwarfs like WM above, it's likely they're just from lines where they haven't selected for size/type.

Eg. some marked lines are quite small, it's something I'll be working on with my capped rats. But some people choose for well marked, or nice colour, over size and conformation - especially in those bred by pet shop or BYBs who can sell dinky dumbos quicker and for higher prices than selecting for size/health and getting agouti monsters...if you get me.


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

*dawrf rats*

yes it was very hard two importan from the usa mainly it was my father in law who sorted it all out for me and am starting my line in late july if all goes well so fingers crossed


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

wolfmagicrattery said:


> yes it was very hard two importan from the usa mainly it was my father in law who sorted it all out for me and am starting my line in late july if all goes well so fingers crossed


 
There is someone on 'findit' that used to advertise dwarves but whether they were or not is debateable.
There's also a person in the North East that says she has a dwarf but I've seen it and it's massive to these two.
Since dwarfism can be none hereditary, I know I have dwarf nephews, these could possibly be dwarfed.

Whereabouts in the US did you import from as I have a few friends int he states who are planning journeys this year so I'd be interested to get in touch a breeder.

As I say there will be 'hereditary' dwarfism and also 'none hereditary' dwarfism so even though you may breed two 'dwarfed' parents there is the risk of bigger kittens causing problems for the doe to give birth.

Also I couldn't understand how from two sisters, who obviously had the same amount of litters with their previous owner, only produced this strange litter.
I am presuming of course that each cage of rats got the same food etc with him. They definitely had everything the same whilst here.

The parents weren't in any way underfed or small when they came here, they had been overbred, that was the only thing I would have said was wrong in their care. They had big enough cages and were of a decent size and were definitely chunky. Even taking into account the does had litters shortly after arriving.
Also what would explain them not getting fur until almost 5 weeks old?


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

saxon said:


> There is someone on 'findit' that used to advertise dwarves but whether they were or not is debateable.
> There's also a person in the North East that says she has a dwarf but I've seen it and it's massive to these two.
> Since dwarfism can be none hereditary, I know I have dwarf nephews, these could possibly be dwarfed.
> 
> ...


 we got ours from a rattery in denver i but i think most usa ratterys do them and let me know if you m8 is bringing any bk as i need some more and it cost us over 2 and half thou two get them here like i said father in law helped a lot. ours did not get get proper fur till 6 weeks i shall take some photos 2night and post them on here if you dont mind saxon


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Sounds like they were underdeveloped maybe? I had a litter born looking prem, they all died shortly after birth. Perhaps the litter they're from weren't developing properly in the womb, and that explains the delay in catching up fur wise etc.

If it was hereditary dwarfism, you'd have expected it to show up in all their litters.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Ps. Been having a look on your site WM - there's a few varieties mixed up on there (Blueberry looks russian blue agouti dumbo rather than russian blue, the lavendar isn't lavendar it's a roan, dove that looks russian cinnamon, russian blues that look british etc). Might be worth bringing them along to a show for id-ing properly? You should bring your dwarves along too for people to gawp over. Not a fan personally but there's lots of people who are! :welcome:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

wolfmagicrattery said:


> ours did not get get proper fur till 6 weeks i shall take some photos 2night and post them on here if you dont mind saxon


I dont' mind you putting pics on here.
Maybe these are none hereditary dwarves then if yours didnt' get fur until later!!!!





LisaLQ said:


> Ps. Been having a look on your site WM - there's a few varieties mixed up on there (Blueberry looks russian blue agouti dumbo rather than russian blue, the lavendar isn't lavendar it's a roan, dove that looks russian cinnamon, russian blues that look british etc). Might be worth bringing them along to a show for id-ing properly? You should bring your dwarves along too for people to gawp over. Not a fan personally but there's lots of people who are! :welcome:


I noticed a few that I thought were wrong. I think I pointed one out some time ago on the 'old' site. I think WM is probably using US colours.



LisaLQ said:


> Sounds like they were underdeveloped maybe? I had a litter born looking prem, they all died shortly after birth. Perhaps the litter they're from weren't developing properly in the womb, and that explains the delay in catching up fur wise etc.
> 
> If it was hereditary dwarfism, you'd have expected it to show up in all their litters.


As I say I would think none hereditary dwarfism, like my nephew, I know that would not usually happen throughout the litter but as you say with the doe having so many litters that probably has some relevance as well.
These did not look prem at all and grew as normal but without fur until around 4 weeks then began getting 'tufts'. It wasn't until around 7 weeks they seemed to slow down in their growth!
It was a litter of ten and all survived...until I culled the other eight.


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Ps. Been having a look on your site WM - there's a few varieties mixed up on there (Blueberry looks russian blue agouti dumbo rather than russian blue, the lavendar isn't lavendar it's a roan, dove that looks russian cinnamon, russian blues that look british etc). Might be worth bringing them along to a show for id-ing properly? You should bring your dwarves along too for people to gawp over. Not a fan personally but there's lots of people who are! :welcome:


blueberry agouti colour has just come throught and we acer it was gusse beacuse everybody kept saying she was a lav and acer now has out grown her roan and now has some stunning babies i know i have some mixed up and i do have to sort out as i have some new ones two put up and i do usa colours alot as well we are planning two go two shows next year hopefully


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

what would be the reason for not getting fur til 6 weeks?? sorry 2 ask but i have never heard of it happening b4?? so did babies look like they were going 2 be bald or very short haired til they were around 6 weeks??


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

*dwarf rats*



Mrs dirtydozen said:


> what would be the reason for not getting fur til 6 weeks?? sorry 2 ask but i have never heard of it happening b4?? so did babies look like they were going 2 be bald or very short haired til they were around 6 weeks??


they were patched hairless now uploading photos


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

wolfmagicrattery said:


> they were patched hairless now uploading photos


'waits' love looking at ratti pics :flrt:


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

*dawrf rats*








this juno she is 7 months







this badger he is coming up two 12 months 







bell is is a month behide on juno


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

just out of intrest what do people think these rats are? they arnt mine but someone elses the top hairless pics dont look unusual 2 me but the pic on the 4th post down i think is lovely, n the pic on the 2nd post down, is this like the patchi hairless. 

why would the rats turn out like this

_Here's __some of our funky rat's __including our WereRat_


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

*dawrf rats*

the hairless one i breed and bell is a import and juno is a import is well


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

wolfmagicrattery said:


> the hairless one i breed and bell is a import and juno is a import is well


just saw ur pic after i posted lol i know what u mean now about the fur, they are all beautiful, supose its like having a baby rat forever :lol2:


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> just out of intrest what do people think these rats are? they arnt mine but someone elses the top hairless pics dont look unusual 2 me but the pic on the 4th post down i think is lovely, n the pic on the 2nd post down, is this like the patchi hairless.
> 
> why would the rats turn out like this
> 
> _Here's __some of our funky rat's __including our WereRat_


Could be double rex, could be a regular rex going through it's 3-4 week moult.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Can I ask what their diet is? The hairless baby looks rather underweight rather than just dwarf.


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## wolfmagicrattery (Mar 16, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Can I ask what their diet is? The hairless baby looks rather underweight rather than just dwarf.


get fed rupert rat with hasmter and gerbial mix and a rat pellt and our food scrapps


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Well looking at WM's 'dwarves' the first pic doesn't look to be 7 months. I think the naked just looks undernourished as well.
I have had a few babies in my earlier litters that were weedy like that. Thankfully I rarely get them now in my hairless litters.
The last one looks somewhat like the two I have here.

My two look 'physically' as if they are 7-8 months but they are just tiny.
I'll have to weigh them to see what they weigh as well!

You can usually tell an adult rat by it's features, even if they are tiny, it's the same with human dwarves. Just because they are dwarfed does not mean they look like babies all their lives.
The first pic looks like a 4 weeks old kitten to me.
Also is that last pic a badger?
It looks like a bareback to me I can't see a blaze at all.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Mrs dirtydozen said:


> what would be the reason for not getting fur til 6 weeks?? sorry 2 ask but i have never heard of it happening b4?? so did babies look like they were going 2 be bald or very short haired til they were around 6 weeks??


I have no idea why my litter didn't get fur until later. I thought they were going to be hairless and was quite surprised when they developed fur at around 4-5 weeks old. It grew in in tufts as well which made them look rather unusual.
I didn't get any pics so if I do decide to mate the siblings I'll get some pics from birth onwards to see if it happens again.

The term 'patched hairless' is just another term for double rex and isn't a true hairless gene at all..apparently.
I've never bred rex x rex so dont' know how they work.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

I do wonder whether hairless have a problem absorbing nutrition, one of my boys (a double rex) was fine, but the other (potential "true" hairless) was skinny and boney all his life despite offering him a higher calorie diet. Having said that, he came to me with worms and lice, so it's possible they did some internal damage.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

i have just had my 1st rex 2 rex babies, my boy (bull) was from a litter i had but i got the female pregnant, she had 1 full male hairless, 3 very short haired rexes (or so i call it, they are still very short hair now like thick fuzzy fur)??, and 3 normal looking rexes. i kept every single one lol and mummy. 

i dont know what these babies will turn out like yet, they started 2 open there eyes yesterday, they all look like they have thick curley fur, but so did the other babies n they lost there fur about 4 weeks n it came back or didnt within a week.

edit that sounded strange i should put it better the female was already preg when i got her lol


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

Rex to rex should give you 25% normal, 50% rex and 25% double rex babies. I knew punnet squares would come in handy for something.


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## Mrs dirtydozen (Sep 5, 2008)

cool i shall see what they turn out like, thanx, im keeping most anyway as i bred them for myself the rexes have just grown on me :flrt:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> I do wonder whether hairless have a problem absorbing nutrition, one of my boys (a double rex) was fine, but the other (potential "true" hairless) was skinny and boney all his life despite offering him a higher calorie diet. Having said that, he came to me with worms and lice, so it's possible they did some internal damage.


I found that with my first hairless they often had a couple of puny babies in alitter. I never bred hairless to hairless though always carrier does.
I fed them high protein and high calorie diets as well with more meat than normal which semed to help a bit.

I still have that line but I outcrossed to a bigger agouti line and I'm not having the 'puny' problem now so much. I do still ocassionally get a runty baby but only in bigger litters. I put that down to the hairless being that bit smaller and the furred babies being greedy!

I have another line, dumbo's, and they are a nice size from birth.

I find a lot of breeders are just putting hairless together as they 'used' to sell well. To be honest now there are so many around I rarely sell any. My 'owners' tend to be offered my hairless for free now.
I haven't let any go to breeding homes for well over a year.

I keep the biggest as I'm addicted to them and want to get them even bigger, along with the RB's, BB's, PB's and mink I love them to bits.

I've just got one of my granddaughters DPP back, I bred him 14 months ago, so I'm thinking of putting him to my mock mink to try for mink pearl.
He's totally unrelated to the mink.
He's here for a month so I hope he enjoys his stay. I have asked the bairn, she's 13, if she minds and she is ok with me using him as long as she gets one of his sons.

I have some very thin rex's, fur that is they aren't thin, they are from rex x normal coat. Only 3 weeks at the moment so their fur will come in I should think.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

It depends on whether the DPP is mock based or not as to whether you'd get any minks/pearls, as mock and english together would make black (depending on what else they're carrying). : victory:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

LisaLQ said:


> It depends on whether the DPP is mock based or not as to whether you'd get any minks/pearls, as mock and english together would make black (depending on what else they're carrying). : victory:


 
I honestly don't know which 'mink' he is from as there is only one outcross for 5 generations.
I got his great grandparents, bred them together, took them out to agouti and got black, then bred blacks together and got DPP and black again.
He is from a further mating between two of the DPP from the black to black mating.
I know about the double lethal gene and I was getting smaller litters when breeding DPP x DPP.
Even the agouti x DPP litter was smaller than normal.

If he is English the mating would put mock in so would I then get mink pearl from a further mating beteween siblings?

I have also been toying with russian pearl as some of my mink carry RB as well.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

> If he is English the mating would put mock in so would I then get mink pearl from a further mating beteween siblings?


Yep, but pearls are best on english rather than mock, as mock often brings ruby eyes. But then you wont get decent pearls from DPPs anyway, just more DPPs, in my (all be it limited) experience. Might be worth chatting to Siobhan at Amicus Stud about pearls, or Julie Oliver at Valhalla.

Same with the russian pearls, if you use a DPP carrying russian blue to a mink carrying russian blue, you'll get mink, DPP, dove and russian pearl, but those russian pearls will be dark phase so grow up virtually indistinguishable from a silvered dove.

My russian pearls as babies:

With their dove brother









Older...


















And grown up:


















She's virtually dove now lol.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I've just been back on the hawthorn site.

It was a while ago I was thinking of it and only thought again when Lionel came 'home' on holiday.

It's the pearl merle that has the two copies of the mink, usually mock, and one of pearl.
So I was wrong it's not mink pearl I'm thinking of at all.
I think it must have been pearl merle I was thinking of.
I know that that was the 'mix' I was thinking of.
I'd need to breed siblings from F1 to get the two copies of mink though wouldn't I?

I'm presuming the mink are mock as they come from a line of powder, british blue and plats.

Incidentally, on another note, one of my RBA's is lighter than the others so I'm thinking it might be something else. The only one I can find anywhere near what colour she is on the Hawthorn site is Russian Cinnamon.
Description wise the lilac agouti sounds like her.

Great Grandparents Russian Blue x agouti (unrelated)
Grandparents Russian Blue x Agouti(carrying Russian Blue) (cousins)
Parents Agouti (carrying Russian Blue) x Agouti (carrying Russian Blue) (sibling mating).


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

A "normal" pearl rat has two (recessive) mink genes and one (dominant) pearl gene?

ETA: Only one copy of mink would mean the rat wasn't mink based (just carried it) and therefore couldn't be any form of pearl.


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## LisaLQ (Jan 29, 2009)

If you're after merles, you're better off with mock mink (yep that's the plat side) from what I gather, but you'll be lucky - they dont often crop up any more.

Kathy's correct. Mink is recessive so both parents have to either be it or carry it, and pearl is dominant but only expresses on mink based rats (turns mink to pearl, cinnamon to cinnamon pearl, and dove to russian pearl).

Merling is very rare, although you'll get people saying they have them when really it's just a patchy moult. The only merle spot I've seen on a rat was my platinum pearl boy from an accidental pet shop litter, and that was a tiny dot on his back you could hardly see. I know there's breeders who've been looking for merles for literally years. I've seen lots of patchy minks and mink based though - check out Hope's odd moult:









She's the russian pearl I posted pics of earlier. She's now virtually dove.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Well I like a challenge!
Thanks for the info.

I'm going to start another thread as I have a few questions to ask.


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

I had mearl pop up in a few of my litters a couple of years ago .. it was definatly mearl and last week a breeder who had some rats from me said they had one pop up in a litter of their's so they are still about.. 
i personally never worried about keeping the mearl as it doesnt show to well on mock mink and i didnt have any pearl rats at the time ..

I do have a few colours popping up at the moment though that i am not sure about ? and one odd one that looks white but has a slight markings but hardly noticable ( maybe really silver) and near her bum on the underside is a dark grey patch ? she has dark eyes?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Siamese or himalayan roan? Perhaps if grey it's blue based (eg. BPS, BPH)? Pics would help. Of course you could send them to me for evaluation, I've recently lost an odd-eyed mock mink pearl blazed berkshire rex dumbo.  My Monty. Was born out of a pregnant petshop rat, not something I'd relish planning to make but I now have a thing for blazed dumblobs. :flrt:


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