# New in here!!



## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Hey guys,

For christmas my son got a cold water tank,i did the whole setting it up 10 days before,letting everything settle etc then chose the fish,
Its a 2.5 ft tank and i got 2 shubunkins,5 tiny fish(the size of neon tetras,but i forget the name) a plec,a weather loach and another side cleaner(which i forget its name too):blush:

Anyway the point is,it was cloudy by the first week,so we done water changes 20% daily and it clearer it up a treat nut now 2 of the fish have died,
they actually look like they are peeling,from what little i know it appears to be a fungus,and from looking on the net it says this is common and often called new tank syndrome,
but just suggests water changes in small amounts,

Im all for starting again,getting the fish in a little holding tank and scrubbing the rest out,letting it settle and putting them back in,

Whats the verdict guys? do i buy a fungus treatment and carry on small water changes or so i spring clean the whole tank?

Thanks in advance x


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I would think its down to overfeeding and ammonia spikes ,just keep changing water daily and feed really sparingly and all should be well .
What filtration are you using?
If you didn`t use a maturation fluid the fish could have gone in on the second day as the maturation cycle doesn`t start til` something starts peeing in the water.
It does sound like fungus but it could be them mucusing up because of the conditions. With big water changes this should clear up,just make sure the water you are adding is approx the same temp. as the tank water.
You may want to use a dechlorinator seeing as the fish will be a bit stressed .

G


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

darwengray said:


> I would think its down to overfeeding and ammonia spikes ,just keep changing water daily and feed really sparingly and all should be well .
> What filtration are you using?
> If you didn`t use a maturation fluid the fish could have gone in on the second day as the maturation cycle doesn`t start til` something starts peeing in the water.
> It does sound like fungus but it could be them mucusing up because of the conditions. With big water changes this should clear up,just make sure the water you are adding is approx the same temp. as the tank water.
> ...


 
Ah thanks,
so i shouldnt take it all out,just half maybe?

Ill get onto that in a mo,
the plants and stones look dirty too so i think ill do as much as i can without over stressing them and keep the water changing up daily,

Hmmmm me thinking cold water tank = not too much hassle :lol2:


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

I would do a third daily til` weekend ,you can`t beat water changes for solving problems.
A good maxim in this fishkeeping lark is to think of yourself as a water keeper rather than a fishkeeper.
Keep the water well and the fish will look after themselves.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

darwengray said:


> I would do a third daily til` weekend ,you can`t beat water changes for solving problems.
> A good maxim in this fishkeeping lark is to think of yourself as a water keeper rather than a fishkeeper.
> Keep the water well and the fish will look after themselves.


 
Good point,i see what you mean,

thankyou you have been tons of help,i hope the other fish dont suffer too much


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

Bit of a struggle when these things happens. Persist with the water changes and personally i woudn't be tempted too soon to replace lost fish (you'd be surprised how often people do!). 

I think probably you have added too much at one time to a still new tank - i dont say you should blame yourself, its a common thing, its bad for the fish but its really in the hands of those selling them rather than those buying. 

Hope that you get it all sorted out, would be willing to send you some bacteria in the mail (that sounds REALLY cool) but i wont be down south to access it until Monday pm.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Goat said:


> Bit of a struggle when these things happens. Persist with the water changes and personally i woudn't be tempted too soon to replace lost fish (you'd be surprised how often people do!).
> 
> I think probably you have added too much at one time to a still new tank - i dont say you should blame yourself, its a common thing, its bad for the fish but its really in the hands of those selling them rather than those buying.
> 
> Hope that you get it all sorted out, would be willing to send you some bacteria in the mail (that sounds REALLY cool) but i wont be down south to access it until Monday pm.


 
I did ask the fish guy if that was too many,i wanted to start with two,but he said its best to establish an new tank completely with whatever youre planning to keep :crazy:
So being the dumb cow i am,i happily donated him my cash and toddled off,

Why do you want to send me bacteria?? :blush: If its something that helps,then let me know postage costs etc and ill paypal you the pennies,

thankyou :no1:


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> I did ask the fish guy if that was too many,i wanted to start with two,but he said its best to establish an new tank completely with whatever youre planning to keep :crazy:
> So being the dumb cow i am,i happily donated him my cash and toddled off,
> 
> Why do you want to send me bacteria?? :blush: If its something that helps,then let me know postage costs etc and ill paypal you the pennies,
> ...


Its not just any bacteria (and it isnt some kinda weird body fluid of mine either lol) but it helps establish a colonyof bacteria in the filter which then break down the mess and help control water quality. 
Cant send any until Monday at earliest, but i'll try and remember to ask how things are before then,you may have it pretty much set by then anyway!


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Goat said:


> Its not just any bacteria (and it isnt some kinda weird body fluid of mine either lol) but it helps establish a colonyof bacteria in the filter which then break down the mess and help control water quality.
> Cant send any until Monday at earliest, but i'll try and remember to ask how things are before then,you may have it pretty much set by then anyway!


 
Well seeings as its not weird bodily fluids :lol2: ill let you know the score before monday,but im hoping to of cleared the issue,
I wont be adding anymore fish,so it should settle down,fingers crossed but ill let you know,

many thanks


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

What is actally happening is that you are doing a fish in nitrogen cycle.Fish waste produces poisionous gasses in the water which need to be removed by bacteria in your filter, which you wont have until your tank is older.

You can either do a waer change everyday for about a month, then one every other day for a few weeks, expecting to lose a few fish, or take all the fish back to the shop and look at my thread on fishless cycling and try that.

Or get some mature media from a local fish shop. 

:welcome1: to the hobby.


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## Tomcat (Jul 29, 2007)

How many litres is the tank?


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Esfa said:


> What is actally happening is that you are doing a fish in nitrogen cycle.Fish waste produces poisionous gasses in the water which need to be removed by bacteria in your filter, which you wont have until your tank is older.
> 
> You can either do a waer change everyday for about a month, then one every other day for a few weeks, expecting to lose a few fish, or take all the fish back to the shop and look at my thread on fishless cycling and try that.
> 
> ...


Mature media? Is that the bacteria Goat was talking about?:blush: Ive been doing the water changes,but ill ask Goat if he can send that next week and hopefully that will help,
I should or really read your thread before getting the tank,but ive never had problems with cold tanks before,
the good news is no casualties this morning :no1:

thanks for your reply 



Tomcat said:


> How many litres is the tank?


Hi tomcat,


the tanks 35L


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> Mature media? Is that the bacteria Goat was talking about?:blush:


What i have will help a colony establish, what filter are you using by the way?


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Goat said:


> What i have will help a colony establish, what filter are you using by the way?


 
Its a Elite stingray10 dsigned for tanks up to 50L i have a 35L tank,

its heart shaped and lovely :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> Its a Elite stingray10 dsigned for tanks up to 50L i have a 35L tank,
> 
> its heart shaped and lovely :lol2:


always get as much filtration as possible...a big bacteria bed is what you want. move that water and break up that surface tension...i like powerheads big time!


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

HABU said:


> always get as much filtration as possible...a big bacteria bed is what you want. move that water and break up that surface tension...i like powerheads big time!


 
It has(since ive looked in the manuel) got 2 media compartments and the rest is filled with sponge


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> It has(since ive looked in the manuel) got 2 media compartments and the rest is filled with sponge


put a good quality activated carbon sack in one. it'll sweeten the water.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> It has(since ive looked in the manuel) got 2 media compartments and the rest is filled with sponge


I`D personally put an undergravel filter in ,but then again i`m old:whistling2:
Shops aren`t keen on them because they are cheap to install and there is no repeat media business but for small tanks they still one of the best.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

darwengray said:


> I`D personally put an undergravel filter in ,but then again i`m old:whistling2:
> Shops aren`t keen on them because they are cheap to install and there is no repeat media business but for small tanks they still one of the best.


i agree....shops hate them for some reason but back in the day, they were the bomb!!!:no1:


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

HABU said:


> i agree....shops hate them for some reason but back in the day, they were the bomb!!!:no1:


Yeah they went out of vogue here in the early ninetees especially on the marine side.
Shops realised they could make a lot more money out of an acrylic box with a few plastic balls in rather than a cheap perforated plate a twin outlet pump and a few bags of coral sand.
Non of them seemed to sus that you needed a trickle filter the size of a wardrobe to match that of a u/g bed.
So became born a new stocking level of one inch of fish to six gallons rather than two gals ,that then fitted in with what they were pushing.
But of course that will be familiar to you eh


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

darwengray said:


> I`D personally put an undergravel filter in ,but then again i`m old:whistling2:
> Shops aren`t keen on them because they are cheap to install and there is no repeat media business but for small tanks they still one of the best.


 
Ill look into that,any suggestions on a particular one?


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> Ill look into that,any suggestions on a particular one?


Any of the filter plates on the market will be fine ,it will need a small powerhead or airpump to power it .
Easy to install and makes our entire gravel bed a filter.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

powerhead all the way!!!!:no1:


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

darwengray said:


> Any of the filter plates on the market will be fine ,it will need a small powerhead or airpump to power it .
> Easy to install and makes our entire gravel bed a filter.


Sounds like that might be the way to go then,

should i give it a go as it is,or change it round now do you think


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> Sounds like that might be the way to go then,
> 
> should i give it a go as it is,or change it round now do you think


do you want to learn?.... we can help you have a masterpiece like i have. people can't speak when they see my silly freshwater community tank...... you can do anything with little expense and some expertise!....i have a planted tank that is way better than ANY tank in any shop in my town!:no1:...i am unabashedly proud of it!:no1:


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## Phillipl (May 21, 2007)

Neon tetra sizes? Good luck catching them when you need to clean out! i hate them :Na_Na_Na_Na::no1:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

Phillipl said:


> Neon tetra sizes? Good luck catching them when you need to clean out! i hate them :Na_Na_Na_Na::no1:


what is clean out?...that's called starting over...never clean out a tank...vaccum the gravel and change water....gutting a tank destroys what you have been working for so hard!


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

HABU said:


> what is clean out?...that's called starting over...never clean out a tank...vaccum the gravel and change water....gutting a tank destroys what you have been working for so hard!


Largely agreed, unless there was serious issues i wouldnt totally strip it down.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

a bag of carbon wont fit into the stingray filters....see if the shop will take back some of your fish deff sounds like they are shedding there mucus due to the water i would say no more than a 10% water change for the next 7 days...undergravel filters do work well but you dont have time to esablish one althought stingray filters do work there isnt a lot of media surface for bacteria to grow onto so i would go and get another internal filter that has more media surface area ....also dont feed your fish for 3 days then just feed tiny bits every other day for a few weeks ....plecs produce huge amounts of waste so if you can rehome it ....also what are you feeding and if you can buy a test kit not the ones you use a paper dip to test but a liquid one from nutrafin


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## Tomcat (Jul 29, 2007)

YOur tank is seriously over stocked then, a goldfish (shubunkin) needs 25-30L each, so your tank is ok for one. Then with your others and your pleco and that, overly overstocked.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i havent a clue as to what a stingray filter is...


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

I would suggest against an UG filter, they clog easily and just arnt up to scratch. sorry. 

If i were you i would give all the fish back and start again. I know it sounds drastic but 

And then you could set up a chinese hillstream loach biotope with that tank, would be cool! After you have cycled it, of couse. 

Take a look on google.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Phillipl said:


> Neon tetra sizes? Good luck catching them when you need to clean out! i hate them :Na_Na_Na_Na::no1:


they are super quick i must say :crazy:



alistu said:


> a bag of carbon wont fit into the stingray filters....see if the shop will take back some of your fish deff sounds like they are shedding there mucus due to the water i would say no more than a 10% water change for the next 7 days...undergravel filters do work well but you dont have time to esablish one althought stingray filters do work there isnt a lot of media surface for bacteria to grow onto so i would go and get another internal filter that has more media surface area ....also dont feed your fish for 3 days then just feed tiny bits every other day for a few weeks ....plecs produce huge amounts of waste so if you can rehome it ....also what are you feeding and if you can buy a test kit not the ones you use a paper dip to test but a liquid one from nutrafin


Awwww i like the plec,they told me he would clean the tank :whip:



Tomcat said:


> YOur tank is seriously over stocked then, a goldfish (shubunkin) needs 25-30L each, so your tank is ok for one. Then with your others and your pleco and that, overly overstocked.


Seems ive had poor advice 



Esfa said:


> I would suggest against an UG filter, they clog easily and just arnt up to scratch. sorry.
> 
> If i were you i would give all the fish back and start again. I know it sounds drastic but
> 
> ...


I doubt Pets at home would take them back to be honest,
ill have to try something with what ive got


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

did you get these and your advice from pets at home ???? if you did then dont go back find a local aquatic shop instead that deals with only aquatics they can and should give you better advice than pah ...imo


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

HABU said:


> i havent a clue as to what a stingray filter is...


 
stingray filtes have 2 small pieces of foam in them and 2 small pods with carbon in them but the foams together are no bigger than 4 inches by 2inches by 1/2 inch and thats being generous


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

They are a great little filter for small tanks with low bioloads. =]


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## neep_neep (Oct 18, 2007)

Send a complaint email to their head office - they don't like it when their staff give out retarded advice :lol2:

They should take them back if you ask. Especially if you get head office involved.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

neep_neep said:


> Send a complaint email to their head office - they don't like it when their staff give out retarded advice :lol2:
> 
> They should take them back if you ask. Especially if you get head office involved.


 
the advice pretty much came from my local aquatics store,i got the fish from Pets at home because they were open on christmas eve,
I had the tank set up for days on the fish shops advice but they couldnt supply the fish as they were closed.

I dint really have a leg to stand on really,my fault for not researching enough i guess


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

loads of peeps make mistakes with there first tank...its a learning curve all you can do now is to try and help the fish you have in the tank ...as you say you cant return the fish then my advice is go and get another filter and run it alongside the one you have now also get some live bacteria to help your filter mature tell your aquatic shop what the problem is and see if they will let you have some mature water off there system as said before do daily water changes of 10% for 7 days and buy a test kit keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

alistu said:


> loads of peeps make mistakes with there first tank...its a learning curve all you can do now is to try and help the fish you have in the tank ...as you say you cant return the fish then my advice is go and get another filter and run it alongside the one you have now also get some live bacteria to help your filter mature tell your aquatic shop what the problem is and see if they will let you have some mature water off there system as said before do daily water changes of 10% for 7 days and buy a test kit keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite


 
thankyou,ill go down and get one in the morning,
ill prob write it all down and explain the situation,do you have a suggestion on the filter make/model?


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

honestly depends what they stock tbh ..most place keep fluval plus models in stock if you can get a fluval 3 plus or 2 plus ....just make sure its big enough for your tank but try and get one thats meant for a larger tank...trying to remember but i think the fluval 3 plus by hagen turns over 90 litres ...give it a google lol they come with 2 good sive foams in them so when it comes to cleaning time you only need to give 1 a quick squidge out in the dirty tank water


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

OI BM don`t listen to those kiddies advise listen to me and Habu U`G DONT clog easily i doubt they`ve even used one ...think ...Darwengray/Habu you know it makes sense :lol2::lol2:

your tank is going in the right direction don`t listen to those high chair experts :whip:I`LL change their nappies later


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

darwengray said:


> OI BM don`t listen to those kiddies advise listen to me and Habu U`G DONT clog easily i doubt they`ve even used one ...think ...Darwengray/Habu you know it makes sense :lol2::lol2:
> 
> your tank is going in the right direction don`t listen to those high chair experts :whip:I`LL change their nappies later


 
behave i got more years infront of you lol underground filters went years ago yeh i agree they ok but better if you reverse it ....i have used most filters


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

They only went out years ago because people didn`t understand how they work and i`ve yet to find someone who used reverse flow properly.
Lets face it its the tank itself that itself matures ultimately ,the gravel rocks ,etc ,you could turn the filters off on most tanks once they are six months old and as long as circulation is good nothing would happen.
I can remember when Jack Helms was the dogs if you can`t then i`ve been doing it longer than you so nerr :lol2::lol2:

you`re advice is good but i still think you`re a whipper snapper


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

darwengray said:


> They only went out years ago because people didn`t understand how they work and i`ve yet to find someone who used reverse flow properly.
> Lets face it its the tank itself that itself matures ultimately ,the gravel rocks ,etc ,you could turn the filters off on most tanks once they are six months old and as long as circulation is good nothing would happen.
> I can remember when Jack Helms was the dogs if you can`t then i`ve been doing it longer than you so nerr :lol2::lol2:
> 
> you`re advice is good but i still think you`re a whipper snapper


lol i set up a reverse on my 2 tier pond normal filters for the bottom large pond but top shallow pond was a reverse under gravel worked a treat


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i'd put an u.g. filter up against a hot filter any day!!:no1:


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

darwengray said:


> OI BM don`t listen to those kiddies advise listen to me and Habu U`G DONT clog easily i doubt they`ve even used one ...think ...Darwengray/Habu you know it makes sense :lol2::lol2:
> 
> your tank is going in the right direction don`t listen to those high chair experts :whip:I`LL change their nappies later


 
:lol2: you guys know how to confuse a girl :lol2:

Ill go to the pet shop and see what they stock,then go from there :no1:


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

If you turn your filter off nothing would happen... because all your fishies would be dead! :whistling2:


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Well i dont have to worry about re homing the plec as hes gone too now 

They dont even float when dead they sink,it that any indication to the problem??

The bloody fish shop has half day closing on fridays :whip: and im working all weekend so i might have to get someone to pick me another filter up tomorrow,
If i get an UG one will it disturb the whole tank putting it in??


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

with ug filter you will need to take all substrate you got out then put your grid in and cover with a layer of gravel but not a fine gravel as it will go through the holes in grid .....sorry to hear about your plec


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Cant be arsed to read the whole thread... _but_, I would say dont go for a UG, go for an appropriately sized internal or external filter (internal's are cheaper and eazier). Get one that is recommended for slightly bigger tank than yours. 

Then, wait a couple days. Add _either_ a really hardy fish (goldfish if its coldwater), or add some sort of bacterial preperation. 

Then, get (at least) an ammonia and nitrite test kit. Ammonia will spike and then drop, and so will nitrite after. Add a fish or two every week or so, and watch those levels: make sure they dont become too high. If all is going well, just keep adding fish every week or more, until it is fully stocked.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

AshMashMash said:


> Cant be arsed to read the whole thread... _but_, I would say dont go for a UG, go for an appropriately sized internal or external filter (internal's are cheaper and eazier). Get one that is recommended for slightly bigger tank than yours.
> 
> Then, wait a couple days. Add _either_ a really hardy fish (goldfish if its coldwater), or add some sort of bacterial preperation.
> 
> Then, get (at least) an ammonia and nitrite test kit. Ammonia will spike and then drop, and so will nitrite after. Add a fish or two every week or so, and watch those levels: make sure they dont become too high. If all is going well, just keep adding fish every week or more, until it is fully stocked.


maybe you should of bothered reading the thread then you would of known what its all about


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

alistu said:


> with ug filter you will need to take all substrate you got out then put your grid in and cover with a layer of gravel but not a fine gravel as it will go through the holes in grid .....sorry to hear about your plec


 
thanks,i dont understand why the little fish,which are tetra size but gold with red tails if that helps :blush:,are thriving,i mean theyre nearly an inch long now too and swimming like crazy but the other Shubunkin is lethargic now too 



AshMashMash said:


> Cant be arsed to read the whole thread... _but_, I would say dont go for a UG, go for an appropriately sized internal or external filter (internal's are cheaper and eazier). Get one that is recommended for slightly bigger tank than yours.
> 
> Then, wait a couple days. Add _either_ a really hardy fish (goldfish if its coldwater), or add some sort of bacterial preperation.
> 
> Then, get (at least) an ammonia and nitrite test kit. Ammonia will spike and then drop, and so will nitrite after. Add a fish or two every week or so, and watch those levels: make sure they dont become too high. If all is going well, just keep adding fish every week or more, until it is fully stocked.


you guys just confuse me :lol2:

UG filter
Internal filter 


which one? :crazy:


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

choice of filter is up to you tbh but internals maybe easier for you to maintain ...the little fish sound like mountain minnows and are a bit hardier than the others you have keeo doing the partail water changes till you are able to sort out more filtration but you will need to run both filters alongside each other....


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

alistu said:


> maybe you should of bothered reading the thread then you would of known what its all about


All right calm down! That was overly rude, might I say. I meant what I said in a joking way... jees. 

So basically, you slate me for not reading the whole thread, and then go and recommend _exactly_ what I have just said: internal, watch ammonia and nitrite, add fish till fully stocked. I am standing by what I wrote. 

The only thing I have now seen is that it is 35L - yeh, dont put too many fish in there: about 6-8" of small fish max: thats with a good internal filter. 

Habu and others recommend UG's because they are old school! Internals have a higher surface area for biological filtration, and a high turnover rate, so I would personally go for one of these.


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## mask-of-sanity (Dec 27, 2006)

AshMashMash said:


> All right calm down! That was overly rude, might I say. I meant what I said in a joking way... jees.
> 
> So basically, you slate me for not reading the whole thread, and then go and recommend _exactly_ what I have just said: internal, watch ammonia and nitrite, add fish till fully stocked. I am standing by what I wrote.
> 
> i did not slate you but if you had read the whole thread first you would of seen that it was a new tank set up but had to many fish in at once and that internal filters had been talked about and recomended by me in a previous post


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

alistu said:


> i did not slate you but if you had read the whole thread first you would of seen that it was a new tank set up but had to many fish in at once and that internal filters had been talked about and recomended by me in a previous post


mmm, fine. Maybe you could of just wrote; "yeh, thats what I thought".... but whatever. 

I had seen it was a new tank set up... but I saw that others were giving advice, and were saying UG's, and I just thought I would add that I prefer internals. 

Anyway, were both on the same view point, so I'll leave it at that.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> UG filter
> Internal filter
> 
> 
> which one? :crazy:


As I say, I think internals are best, more SA.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

alistu said:


> choice of filter is up to you tbh but internals maybe easier for you to maintain ...the little fish sound like mountain minnows and are a bit hardier than the others you have keeo doing the partail water changes till you are able to sort out more filtration but you will need to run both filters alongside each other....


 
Minnows yeah i think they are,they seem bullet proof,so they are left with a shubunkin and a sucky thing
ill keep the 3rd water change daily until monday 



AshMashMash said:


> All right calm down! That was overly rude, might I say. I meant what I said in a joking way... jees.
> 
> So basically, you slate me for not reading the whole thread, and then go and recommend _exactly_ what I have just said: internal, watch ammonia and nitrite, add fish till fully stocked. I am standing by what I wrote.
> 
> ...


What in the way of fish types would you reccomend? i have 5 minnows and the sucky thing and 1 shubunkin,
i actually started off,at the aquatic shops suggestion with 2 shubunkins 5 minnows,1 plec 1 weather loach and the sucking dude,
too many obviously,im gutted its down to lack of information on my part 



AshMashMash said:


> As I say, I think internals are best, more SA.


 
SA? im extremely new to it,i need blonde talk :blush:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> What in the way of fish types would you reccomend? i have 5 minnows and the sucky thing and 1 shubunkin,
> i actually started off,at the aquatic shops suggestion with 2 shubunkins 5 minnows,1 plec 1 weather loach and the sucking dude,
> too many obviously,im gutted its down to lack of information on my part
> 
> SA? im extremely new to it,i need blonde talk :blush:


To be honest, 5 minnows, a 'sucky thing' (otocinclus [sp]?) and a shubunkin is the tank fully stocked. You could add some plants, or apple snails or something if want more livestock. 

Sorry, SA = surface area. The sponge in a internal filter has LOADS of SA, like metres and metres square worth of it! Where as a UG plate only has a little more than the actual size of the bottom of your tank (well, plus the gravel: but that counts when you have internals as well). I am guessing your tank is about 40cm * 30cm * 30cm is it?


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> To be honest, 5 minnows, a 'sucky thing' (otocinclus [sp]?) and a shubunkin is the tank fully stocked. You could add some plants, or apple snails or something if want more livestock.
> 
> Sorry, SA = surface area. The sponge in a internal filter has LOADS of SA, like metres and metres square worth of it! Where as a UG plate only has a little more than the actual size of the bottom of your tank (well, plus the gravel: but that counts when you have internals as well). I am guessing your tank is about 40cm * 30cm * 30cm is it?


On what are you basing our figures? the sponge in BM`S filter i`m guessing is around 7 cm cubed as she has already stated that the filter is made up of two compartments .
By my reckoning that equals a surface area of 343sq cm .
Now if she uses an under gravel at a depth of 6cm at your quoted tank size there will be a filter bed of 7200 sq cm .
Even fine sponges have a big percentage of void ,bacteria cant live on void only solid surfaces and as the sponge blocks with gunge then the bacteria works its way to the outside of the sponge to get to the oxygen it craves to survive,then when cleaned out even in tank water a good percentage of bacteria is removed.
Of course the gravel bed has areas of void but being coarser in nature allows a good flow of oxygenated water allowing the bacteria to colonise more of the filter media.
Even silica gravel which is the normal one used has a massive surface area on which bacteria can colonise and gravel and sand substrates have been proved under lab conditions to be a prefered substrate for bacteria to colonise.
Of course as you rightly say the circulation from the internal filter will effect some form of filtration from the gravel bed but not to the depths that a well set up and maintained u/g will.
I have personally took the trouble over the years to buy and compare most types of filter over the years and still come to the conclusion that for simplicity ease of maintenance and massive surface area u/g stands up today in a well stocked ,over fed aquarium.
Though in very deep aquariums i accept they can be difficult to maintain.
Oh and by the way apple snails will put out the same bioload requirement as a two inch fish they also poo !


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

darwengray said:


> On what are you basing our figures? the sponge in BM`S filter i`m guessing is around 7 cm cubed as she has already stated that the filter is made up of two compartments .
> By my reckoning that equals a surface area of 343sq cm .
> Now if she uses an under gravel at a depth of 6cm at your quoted tank size there will be a filter bed of 7200 sq cm .


I'm having a hard time using the internet this morning... I have just got up, and am not at my best. I have found this though:

"Of the three forms of pollution we deal with in aquaria, under gravel filters only deal with ammonia/nitrites - a cheap in-tank box or sponge filter does that! With UG filters, inorganic pollutants such as DOCs and the solid waste remain within the tank. *Besides, gravel as a filter media has a (SSA) specific surface area) between 100 to 200 sq. meters per cubic meter. Plastic media 200 to 300, ceramic 250 to 350, matting 300 to 400, and foam (best) 400 to 500.* The other two factors affecting filter media are; void space and cleanability - it's a lot easyer and faster to clean a foam sponge than the gravel above those under gravel filter plates. And then the under the plate has to be cleaned also. I found that the plant roots tend to clog UG filter plates, but the plants do grow well as does algae, after all, with an under gravel filter you will have an endless supply of plant nutrients (DOCs).... I would get a good bio-wheel filter, prefilter the intake and change at least 20% of the water once a week - that way your taking care of both your plants and fish needs."

And the SSA _is_ the SA _with_ the amount of non-functioning SA taken into account (the amount, as you say, clogged by dirt, and other factors). 

So, it is more, for the appropriately sized filter in the same tank. Plus, as that text says, there are other factors to consider, such as does it remove particulate matter? (no for UG), easiness to clean (hard for UG), etc etc.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

the "sucky thing" could be a chinese hillstream loach. Goooogle


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> I'm having a hard time using the internet this morning... I have just got up, and am not at my best. I have found this though:
> 
> "Of the three forms of pollution we deal with in aquaria, under gravel filters only deal with ammonia/nitrites - a cheap in-tank box or sponge filter does that! With UG filters, inorganic pollutants such as DOCs and the solid waste remain within the tank. *Besides, gravel as a filter media has a (SSA) specific surface area) between 100 to 200 sq. meters per cubic meter. Plastic media 200 to 300, ceramic 250 to 350, matting 300 to 400, and foam (best) 400 to 500.* The other two factors affecting filter media are; void space and cleanability - it's a lot easyer and faster to clean a foam sponge than the gravel above those under gravel filter plates. And then the under the plate has to be cleaned also. I found that the plant roots tend to clog UG filter plates, but the plants do grow well as does algae, after all, with an under gravel filter you will have an endless supply of plant nutrients (DOCs).... I would get a good bio-wheel filter, prefilter the intake and change at least 20% of the water once a week - that way your taking care of both your plants and fish needs."
> 
> ...


Could you tell me where you got this information from
I`d like to check it out.

Cheers


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Esfa said:


> the "sucky thing" could be a chinese hillstream loach. Goooogle


 
They look sweet,but i think its the otocinclus catfish type thing,

I bet you lot think,christ what the hell is she like......... :blush:


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## SiUK (Feb 15, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> They look sweet,but i think its the otocinclus catfish type thing,
> 
> I bet you lot think,christ what the hell is she like......... :blush:


we know what your like Sam, we have seen your drunken pictures:lol2:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

darwengray said:


> Could you tell me where you got this information from
> I`d like to check it out.
> 
> Cheers


Oooh... I dunno. It was this morn. But just do a search, any results you come up with will say what that says. I'm not just arguing with you for the sake of it, I am because I have seen this sort of data a few times before, and so thats what I believe. Thats _why_ we have internals now, else people would still use UG's.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> They look sweet,but i think its the otocinclus catfish type thing,
> 
> I bet you lot think,christ what the hell is she like......... :blush:


No not at all! How are you meant to know any of this stuff if you've just started out keeping fish? And non of us are experts, how ever cocky we might write things on a forum, not seeing face to face (me included!). 

Just remember: Google is your friend... he is godly, and knows all. Use him to your advantage... :lol2:


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> And non of us are experts


Doesn't expertise come with experience or does the planet need a piece of paper stating it can/cannot do something??
Seriously, there are some experts. I'm not saying i am one by any means, but i like to think i know my stuff, and others here have helped me more in other ways than any book/website could!


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Goat said:


> Doesn't expertise come with experience or does the planet need a piece of paper stating it can/cannot do something??
> Seriously, there are some experts. I'm not saying i am one by any means, but i like to think i know my stuff, and others here have helped me more in other ways than any book/website could!


Oh yeh, I completely agree. Yeh, I worded it a bit crappily... I more meant non of us know _everything_, and we should always be able to at least consider what other people say. 

Its more of a 'non of us are experts' in a 'dont be so cocky' sort of way... if you understand what I am trying to say?


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Goat said:


> Doesn't expertise come with experience or does the planet need a piece of paper stating it can/cannot do something??
> Seriously, there are some experts. I'm not saying i am one by any means, but i like to think i know my stuff, and others here have helped me more in other ways than any book/website could!


I think you`ve summed up what i`m thinking ,its as though that if its on a website somewhere it must be true.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

darwengray said:


> I think you`ve summed up what i`m thinking ,its as though that if its on a website somewhere it must be true.


All right... seriously, everyone on this thread seems to have it out for me... and I dont think I have initiated anything by being rude to anyone. 

If you _really_ want me to, I can spend some time finding some proper stuff to show about the surface area things. But I dont know why I need to: all I was saying was that I had heard that internals with sponges or ceramic-type media have a higher surface area than UG's. I then found something to prove it, and you still wont accept it. If you prefer UG's go ahead and use them. I prefer internals, always have (tried both kinds, plus other filters of course), and so will use them.

So, you advise badgers mum to use UG's, I'll advise her to use internals, we can give our respective reasoning, and she can decide.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> Oooh... I dunno. It was this morn. But just do a search, any results you come up with will say what that says. I'm not just arguing with you for the sake of it, I am because I have seen this sort of data a few times before, and so thats what I believe. Thats _why_ we have internals now, else people would still use UG's.


This isn`t the case at all U/g went out of existence because they didn`t make shops and manufacturers enough money.
The big majority of internal filters are useless the sponges are too small .
Aquariums with these function in spite of them not because of them.
Its the gravel and decor that matures then the filter merely becomes a ciculation device.
Think about it the water would have to pass through the sponge a dozen or so times an hour to break down waste.
It does a part job nothing more.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

Erm.... the water does pass through the filter about a dozen times, which is why you cant have say a stingray on a 100gal.

It deffinately IS the filter which matures, nothing else has a large enough surface area to support the bacteria needed. The substrate will not work as a media, because the bacteria needs waterflow to survive.

Its a bit like saying we dont need out lungs to breathe after a while, our windpipe will soon grow big enough to do everything on its own. The lungs are just there to protect the heart. Which im sure we all know, isn't true.

UG filters stopped being sld, because we invented better things.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> All right... seriously, everyone on this thread seems to have it out for me... and I dont think I have initiated anything by being rude to anyone.
> 
> If you _really_ want me to, I can spend some time finding some proper stuff to show about the surface area things. But I dont know why I need to: all I was saying was that I had heard that internals with sponges or ceramic-type media have a higher surface area than UG's. I then found something to prove it, and you still wont accept it. If you prefer UG's go ahead and use them. I prefer internals, always have (tried both kinds, plus other filters of course), and so will use them.
> 
> So, you advise badgers mum to use UG's, I'll advise her to use internals, we can give our respective reasoning, and she can decide.


Noone has got it in for you but at the end of the day YOU are only 19 your practical experience is limited .
I`m guessing your opinions are mostly based on second hand material.
Of course your opinions have worth ,but only limited.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Esfa said:


> Erm.... the water does pass through the filter about a dozen times, which is why you cant have say a stingray on a 100gal.
> 
> It deffinately IS the filter which matures, nothing else has a large enough surface area to support the bacteria needed. The substrate will not work as a media, because the bacteria needs waterflow to survive.
> 
> ...


 
No we invented more expensive things ,how do you know that every filter in the land passes the water through a dozen times .
There are better filters out there than U/G but internals on the whole aren`t one of them.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

darwengray said:


> Noone has got it in for you but at the end of the day YOU are only 19 your practical experience is limited .
> I`m guessing your opinions are mostly based on second hand material.
> Of course your opinions have worth ,but only limited.


 
So if i was 35 and had been keeping fih for a year, you would belive me over a 19 y/o who might have been keeping fish for about 10 years?

He has already said he has tried both filters.

I too have ried both, and i found that the UG was difficult to clean, and slowed down very quickly.

My internal on the otherhand is extremely easy. I take the top filter out and replace it, and every two weeks I wash the carbon filter. If the waterflow slows, i scrub the pump which is about once a month. Simple.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

darwengray said:


> No we invented more expensive things ,how do you know that every filter in the land passes the water through a dozen times .
> There are better filters out there than U/G but internals on the whole aren`t one of them.


That is rather a stupid question. Obviouly a small filter would not pass the water through enough in a 100gal, but in a 20gal it will be perfect.

The UG filters and the internals are about the same price at my lfs, the only filters that areexpensive are the externals.


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Esfa said:


> So if i was 35 and had been keeping fih for a year, you would belive me over a 19 y/o who might have been keeping fish for about 10 years?
> 
> He has already said he has tried both filters.
> 
> ...


Yes they are simple to use thats why people like them .
Its not an age thing but most teenagers are not going to have had many years experience are they?
You do sound very keen though and are obviously a thinker : victory:which is good ,not many youngsters coming into the hobby nowadays.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

> This isn`t the case at all U/g went out of existence because they didn`t make shops and manufacturers enough money.
> The big majority of internal filters are useless the sponges are too small .
> Aquariums with these function in spite of them not because of them.
> Its the gravel and decor that matures then the filter merely becomes a ciculation device.
> ...


Firstly: I _dont_ want to get into a full blown argument, but youn are pushing me that way. 

Lots of filters have a tank overturn of a dozen times or so: you can just get the required filter. And how do you _know_ that it needs to be 12 times? 

They so _do not_ function in spite of them. Come on, thats rediculous. As the other person says, they are needed to mature, even in tanks with gravel in. What I mean is: you ca set up a marine tank, by live sand, and live rock, and yet the tank *still* has to mature before fish can be put it in. 

It does the MAIN job, _especially_ in freshwater tropical tanks. 



> Noone has got it in for you but at the end of the day YOU are only 19 your practical experience is limited .
> I`m guessing your opinions are mostly based on second hand material.
> Of course your opinions have worth ,but only limited.


Right, I know how easy it is to slate people on a forum, but seriously, I would be saying profanity right now, was it not that I am more reserved. 

What you said there is just being rude, and is uneeded. I have been keeping fish for 9 years, and although you, at 35, might not think thats a lot, I couldn't give a crap. 

I have done _lots_ of research. I am veterinary student (I'm sure you saw that in my profile), and so researching these things _really_ interests me. I do a lot of it. I *very* much doubt the majority of your knowlege is learnt first hand: its all research and from other keepers etc. I have kept and bred lots of species, and kept tropical freshwater, marine (FOWLR, but also some corals), ponds etc. 

Why is your opinion _not_ 'only limited' but mine is? Get a grip: people can hear both of our opinions, and decide what they want: they are both just as valid. 

Esfa: thank you:



> So if i was 35 and had been keeping fih for a year, you would belive me over a 19 y/o who might have been keeping fish for about 10 years?
> 
> He has already said he has tried both filters.


See? Its not just me who disagrees.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

Esfa said:


> I too have ried both, and i found that the UG was difficult to clean, and slowed down very quickly.
> 
> My internal on the otherhand is extremely easy. I take the top filter out and replace it, and every two weeks I wash the carbon filter. If the waterflow slows, i scrub the pump which is about once a month. Simple.


Again, my point exactly.


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

darwengray said:


> Yes they are simple to use thats why people like them .
> Its not an age thing but most teenagers are not going to have had many years experience are they?
> You do sound very keen though and are obviously a thinker : victory:which is good ,not many youngsters coming into the hobby nowadays.


Thanks. :no1:

I don't mind you saying that you prefer UGs, after all it is your opinion, whatever works best for you.

But wha ti didnt really like is you saying about being able to turn the filter off, which is false information. And whats worse, its on a beginners topic, im sure they are confused enough with all the dud info they have been given by their lfs. :whip:


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## Graylord (Jul 17, 2007)

Esfa said:


> Thanks. :no1:
> 
> I don't mind you saying that you prefer UGs, after all it is your opinion, whatever works best for you.
> 
> But wha ti didnt really like is you saying about being able to turn the filter off, which is false information. And whats worse, its on a beginners topic, im sure they are confused enough with all the dud info they have been given by their lfs. :whip:


I think there is an element of truth in what you say regarding absolute beginners but i have on several occasions had filters stop or break down (where there was a secondary circulation source) and well......nothing happened even days later....nothing and that is with marines .
Though there is a lot of variables involved and where your dealing with a living breathing biotope nothing is set in stone.
: victory:


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## mEOw (Dec 28, 2006)

i hate under gravel filters.. such a pain in the ass!! but then these days i favour external filters, so much easier maintenance wise i find  
OWen


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

darwengray said:


> I think there is an element of truth in what you say regarding absolute beginners but i have on several occasions had filters stop or break down (where there was a secondary circulation source) and well......nothing happened even days later....nothing and that is with marines .
> Though there is a lot of variables involved and where your dealing with a living breathing biotope nothing is set in stone.
> : victory:


 
Fair enough  but it depends, if you are heavily stocked and you turn your filter off, you will porbably have dead fish within a month.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

SiUK said:


> we know what your like Sam, we have seen your drunken pictures:lol2:


:lol2: thats not for the fishies section is it :lol2:



AshMashMash said:


> No not at all! How are you meant to know any of this stuff if you've just started out keeping fish? And non of us are experts, how ever cocky we might write things on a forum, not seeing face to face (me included!).
> 
> Just remember: Google is your friend... he is godly, and knows all. Use him to your advantage... :lol2:


I havent googled enough hence my problems,my fault for not reseaching :bash:



Esfa said:


> Fair enough  but it depends, if you are heavily stocked and you turn your filter off, you will porbably have dead fish within a month.


 
I no longer have a heavily stock tank i only have 5 happy minnows left 
despite the water changes,very limited feeding and all your guys help theyve all gone tonight except the minnows 

i have one very sad 13yo and im kicking myself,thanks to you all for all your help anyway :no1:,ill be back in here to tell you what filter i end up with and start again


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> :lol2:
> 
> 
> I no longer have a heavily stock tank i only have 5 happy minnows left
> despite the water changes,very limited feeding and all your guys help theyve all gone tonight except the minnows


Sounding good! Let us know how you get on then!


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## The Fool (Aug 23, 2007)

AshMashMash said:


> Oh yeh, I completely agree. Yeh, I worded it a bit crappily... I more meant non of us know _everything_, and we should always be able to at least consider what other people say.
> 
> Its more of a 'non of us are experts' in a 'dont be so cocky' sort of way... if you understand what I am trying to say?


Yeah okay! 
It just made us all seem a bit noob and amateurish lol 

Cheers for explaining!


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## Esfa (Apr 15, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> I no longer have a heavily stock tank i only have 5 happy minnows left
> despite the water changes,very limited feeding and all your guys help theyve all gone tonight except the minnows
> 
> i have one very sad 13yo and im kicking myself,thanks to you all for all your help anyway :no1:,ill be back in here to tell you what filter i end up with and start again


Ouch. Is there any chance you could ask your fish shop for some mature media? Remember to keep it wet, though.


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

Esfa said:


> Ouch. Is there any chance you could ask your fish shop for some mature media? Remember to keep it wet, though.


 
Ill ask when i go in to see about filters,

not that ive decided whats the way to go yet,
internal or UG,

oh and the catfish thing is still alive,just,

however the water is now crystal clear :roll: is that good news do you think?


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> Ill ask when i go in to see about filters,
> 
> not that ive decided whats the way to go yet,
> internal or UG,
> ...


I would say the fact that the water is clear cant be _bad_ news. But, of course, the chemistry could still be off. Glad the oto is still alive! They're cute little things!

I've (quite clearly, lol!) stated what I would go for, in terms of filters, so the decisions up to you. I can be bothered getting in pointless arguments with people again...


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

what is an internal filter???


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

HABU said:


> what is an internal filter???


I dont know what you call them, but something like this:

Fluval 4 Plus Aquarium Internal Filter

Or this website calls them "Electric Internal Power Filters":
Aquatics Online UK - Filters Guide

What do you recommend, with your years of wisdom? I'm guessing its going to be old-school! :lol2:


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

oh those...they are nice!...work very well. simple to clean. the only draw back is that they can be seen. i've used two different fluval sizes. but if i was going to use something that i have to see, i'd opt out for a nice aquaclear powerhead with a canister filter. they have a stronger flow, are adjustible and have an air injector for aereation. plus the canister pops right out.....those fluvals are harder to pull out the media underwater. a strong h.o.t. filter like what marineland makes, with the biowheels are the ones i use those and aquaclears...it's all personal preference. they'll all do the job. more than one way to skin a cat!:lol2: as long as you have strong filtration and a big bacteria bed, how you do it is up to the person with the tank...i go for power and ease of use...i've worked with most all filter system avail. here in the states... it's all good. just my advice....don't skimp on the filtration...also used filters are a good deal from people that just gave up on a tank...


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

HABU said:


> oh those...they are nice!...work very well. simple to clean. the only draw back is that they can be seen... ...it's all personal preference. they'll all do the job. more than one way to skin a cat! as long as you have strong filtration and a big bacteria bed, how you do it is up to the person with the tank.......don't skimp on the filtration...


I agree on all counts! :lol2:


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## BADGERS MUM (Dec 5, 2006)

All i really wanna know if i did go for UG would it upset the whole tank by hoofing up all the gravel or would it just settle again??

I can get fluvals easy enough though and run side by side with the current filter,

maybe internals the wrong wording Habu,im a newbie :blush:


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

BADGERS MUM said:


> All i really wanna know if i did go for UG would it upset the whole tank by hoofing up all the gravel or would it just settle again??
> 
> I can get fluvals easy enough though and run side by side with the current filter,
> 
> maybe internals the wrong wording Habu,im a newbie :blush:


I think they are 'internals', I think its an american/english confusion. 

I would say go for internal, for all the reasons stated. Plus, also, you dont have to uproot the tank, which i a bit of a hassle!


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

i like these...i run the biggest one the emperor....very effective and user friendly...i swear by them.....and you only see the intake which can easily be hidden...your hands don't even get wet cleaning them...they are quiet and durable too.


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

HABU said:


> i like these...i run the biggest one the emperor....very effective and user friendly...i swear by them.....and you only see the intake which can easily be hidden...your hands don't even get wet cleaning them...they are quiet and durable too.


Ooh, I like them. Never seen them before. Look good. I like filters that are out of the way: I tend to go for large externals now (or _did_, when I still had fish  ). They also have the added benefit of slightly increasing the volume, and are out of the tank. I had a fluval 404, 304 and an eheim external on my various tanks. More expensive though, by quite a bit.


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## HABU (Mar 21, 2007)

the bacteria lives on the wet/dry biowheel..... very effective and you never change the wheel..it keeps a huge colony and is not submerged

Penguin Bio Wheel Power Filters by Marineland - Animal World Network

Aquarium Bio Wheel Filters


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## AshMashMash (Oct 28, 2007)

HABU said:


> the bacteria lives on the wet/dry biowheel..... very effective and you never change the wheel..it keeps a huge colony and is not submerged
> 
> Penguin Bio Wheel Power Filters by Marineland - Animal World Network
> 
> Aquarium Bio Wheel Filters


Ah yes, I heard of them before, and seen some concepts, but never used them. They are meant to be 'super-capable' of growing bacteria aren't they? I might be looking into things like that when I qualify from uni and get a nice big tank!


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