# Can brother and sister mate?



## tombutler86

Can a brother and sister snake from the same litter breed?
Is the male ready to breed before a female or the other way round?:2thumb:


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## SnakeBreeder

Reptiles can inbreed for a number of generations without any problems.:gasp:
But it is always better to find unrelated animals where possible.
Breeding is more a matter of size rather than age.
Males can breed from a smaller size than females.
Therefore, males are normally ready to breed before females from the same clutch.
Stephen


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## panasonic

*corn snake*

hi i have a baby brother and sister corn snake when they grow up would it be safe to breed them together


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## eeji

panasonic said:


> hi i have a baby brother and sister corn snake when they grow up would it be safe to breed them together


yes it will be


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## sharpstrain

panasonic said:


> hi i have a baby brother and sister corn snake when they grow up would it be safe to breed them together


 
all breeding poses genetic risks whether in the wild or in captivity, although of course in captivity the likliehood of closer genetic connection is usually greater - the best anyone can say is probably


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## salad dodger

eeji said:


> yes it will be


without any knowlege of their breeding history you can say that ?


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## selina20

panasonic said:


> hi i have a baby brother and sister corn snake when they grow up would it be safe to breed them together


I would avoid it tbh.


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## alan1

*species?*

line-breeding for the first few generations in most reptiles? - absolutely fine

human beings? - personally i wouldn't


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## gary m

i would but dont keep on doing it


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## beaniebopps

I wouldn't... I think its totally wrong - brother and sister snakes share on average 50% of the same genes. If any of those genes are deleterious and recessive therefore the adults don't show any problems because the gene is recessive) the babies will inherit 2 copies and will have problems. They might not be obvious problems but they will be there.

Continuing to inbreed the line increases the risk. Unless you've found a brand new exciting morph which you will only get by breeding brother and sister... please go find unrelated snakes!


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## fuzzzzbuzzzz

I think that inbreeding snakes is quite cruel and has health risks. If you take two genetically related snakes and breed them you can have the same copy of a gene (recessive gene) and it can cause deformities, health problems, slower growth rate, loss of immune function - I personally wouldn't do it, as it seems quite a gamble.

Gemma


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## Magpie

I wouldn't do it. I'm sure that dog breeders had the same attitude when they started out - 'yeh, do it this time, but don't keep on doing it', and that's how pedigree dogs became such a sorry mess ! Corns are so common and cheap, there's absolutely no need to inbreed.


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## Herpetologist_apprentice

Personally i'd breed a a baby back to to their parents but only for one or two generations, most reptiles can interbreed many times i think it's the dart frog that can do atleast 32 times i think dont qoute me though lol


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## motorhead

if you think about its been done alot with most of the wild caught boas and pythons to get the morphs we have today but as some others have pointed out if you carry on down this line problems will most likely occur!!


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## wayakinwolf

As a lot of other people have already said, it`s the ethics. It`s not can they breed which we all know is possible, it`s whether they should be bred together.

As someone who has shown, judged, & yes, bred dogs for over 32 years, i think i do know a little about ethics etc. If you want a litter of puppies to basically look the same, then you MUST at the very least line breed, however it`s NOT the inbreeding that causes these problems, it`s the people that inbreed with unhealthy stock to start with that does. 
In my experiences with the dogs, i sometimes bred quite closely, ie 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister, but i would never mate an animal back to it`s parents. 
With the the above combo you`d either get all stunners, or all crap. There wasn`t anything in between.
What folks seem to think is that if they have an animal with legs that are too long, they should then put it to a dog with short legs. WRONG!
By doing that, all you get is half the litter with long legs, & half with short ones. What you should do is to find a dog that excels in all the areas that yours fails & use that.
Of course, if yours has that many failings, you must then ask yourself whether it is even good enough to be bred from in the first place, & what possible good could it contribute to the breeds gene pool. 
If your answer is not much, then DON`T BREED FROM IT. 

Sorry for this rant & i`m quite sure that a lot of yopu will slate me for it,but i felt it must be said.


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## eightball

there shouldnt be a problem with it unless you know they are both likely to be a carrier of a certain genetical problem

Whilst this wouldnt be a problem in terms of the animals then you still have the arguement against ethics of doing this etc


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## Ron Magpie

Hasn't it been established that the practice is already causing problems in leopard geckos? I seem to remember it being mentioned in an article in PRK, where a breeder was re-introducing wild lines to counter defects.


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## beaniebopps

Herpetologist_apprentice said:


> Personally i'd breed a a baby back to to their parents but only for one or two generations, most reptiles can interbreed many times i think it's the dart frog that can do atleast 32 times i think dont qoute me though lol


The risk doesn't change between species, thats a load of bull (sorry!) All reptiles inherit their genetics in the exact same way - from two gametes produced by meiosis that fuse in fertilisation. 

Not aiming this at you at all, but people are always replying with their opinions or what they've heard without really understanding how reproduction and genetics work. 

I wouldn't consider myself an expert on inbreeding and able to give ALL the answers, even with a degree in Zoology from a top university... So I'm not sure what makes most of the people answering here 'qualified' in any way.


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## Paul_MTS

Great thread and certainly one of those taboo questions.

It's something I have been thinking about recently as I'm considering my hold backs from a clutch. 

I have an adult pair of coastal carpet pythons which are siblings from a wild pairing. So assuming the wild parents weren't related my parents are the first stage of inbreeding, this was done as they both showed really light colours especially on the female and reduced patterns.

Sure enough the youngsters were so close to axanthic and some hatchlings have such a reduced pattern they look closer to jags.

So the dilemma is breeding a couple of the babies back to the parents will surely help any recessive morphs come out but obviously I don't want major issues.


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## bothrops

beaniebopps said:


> I wouldn't... I think its totally wrong - brother and sister snakes share on average 50% of the same genes. If any of those genes are deleterious and recessive therefore the adults don't show any problems because the gene is recessive) the babies will inherit 2 copies and will have problems. They might not be obvious problems but they will be there.
> 
> Continuing to inbreed the line increases the risk. Unless you've found a brand new exciting morph which you will only get by breeding brother and sister... please go find unrelated snakes!


If the problems are not phenotypically expressed (AKA 'obvious') then how are they deleterious?




fuzzzzbuzzzz said:


> I think that inbreeding snakes is quite cruel and has health risks. If you take two genetically related snakes and breed them you can have the same copy of a gene (recessive gene) and it can cause deformities, health problems, slower growth rate, loss of immune function - I personally wouldn't do it, as it seems quite a gamble.
> 
> Gemma



Inbreeding is only a problem if those deleterious alleles exist. If you bred responsibly you can line bred these thing out and actually make healthier, stronger lines (look at show rats versus petshop lines - pet shop rats are pretty much guaranteed to get tumours and will live 18 months if you're lucky. Some line bred show lines are tumour free and live upwards of three years with ease) In these cases, outbreeding will be deleterious for the line.





beaniebopps said:


> The risk doesn't change between species, thats a load of bull (sorry!) All reptiles inherit their genetics in the exact same way - from two gametes produced by meiosis that fuse in fertilisation.
> 
> Not aiming this at you at all, but people are always replying with their opinions or what they've heard without really understanding how reproduction and genetics work.
> 
> I wouldn't consider myself an expert on inbreeding and able to give ALL the answers, even with a degree in Zoology from a top university... So I'm not sure what makes most of the people answering here 'qualified' in any way.




The risk most certainly DOES change between species. All things are not equal and your first sentence is a gross oversimplification.

I'm not saying inbreeding depression doesn't happen and I'm not saying that its wise to avoid it in general, but to say 'incestuous matings = guaranteed problems' is far to oversimplistic.


Outbreeding can also cause depressions in fitness in wild populations as distant relatives or non relatives mating will break up the coadapted genome of the parents.





Finally, the main trouble with 'inbreeding = evil' ideas lead to the common misconceptions within the reptile world that it is inbreeding that has 'caused' a lot of the problems in some morphs (such as the spider wobble or the caramel kinks) which, is of course, completely false.


Of course, line breeding and inbreeding will reduce heterozygosity in populations and therefore reduce genetic diversity, but I would question the need to keep captive (domestic) lines of snakes as genetically diverse as possible? On what grounds? If the homozygosity is such that is isn't deleterious to health, and the phenotypic expression is such that it can be kept perfectly healthy and happy in a captive environment, why would it be important if the animal itself happens to be less diverse than its wild counterparts?


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