# wild caught "caramel albino"



## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

ok... for all of those who were following the recent "for sale thread"... we all know its definately NOT a caramel albino... but, i've got 2 questions...

1/ what the hell is it...
2/ who the hell bought it...

if someone could transfer the pictures of "the snake in question" to here, it would be appreciated...

lets have some of your thoughts...


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## albinoroyal (Feb 12, 2008)

*wc royal*

alan snakewhispera is the only one i know with pictures of this snake give him a pm sure he will load them up for you


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## RubbleUK (Apr 12, 2007)

*Pics*


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## RubbleUK (Apr 12, 2007)

Drag and drop is a wonderful thing eh?!

;-)

Chris


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Photos don't do that snake justice... The colour doesn't come out properly..
I'll bet the new owner had spent the last few hours looking at it, trying to work it out... LOL


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## bosvark75 (Feb 5, 2008)

*My thoughts*

I admit it looks different but until its proved out its just a nice looking normal. If the sellers of odd looking Royals feel they are worth loads of money then why is the snake fior sale and why do they not keep it for themselves and breed it to see of it is a morph of some sort. Then it and the offspring would be worth a fortune.


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## Blackecho (Jun 30, 2008)

Some form of ghost?


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

for me, its the eyes, they're grey/green... never seen a normal with eyes that colour...


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

bosvark75 said:


> If the sellers of odd looking Royals feel they are worth loads of money then why is the snake fior sale and why do they not keep it for themselves and breed it to see of it is a morph of some sort. Then it and the offspring would be worth a fortune.


Thats what i always wonder. If you breed royals and have something you dont know what it is, why get rid of it? Surely having a pet project or a potential earner is a bonus.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

I have aload more photos, Ill look for them later on tonight, Im busy working atm 
The snake is weird, Personally I think its gonna be a co-dom / dom morph...
 Mainly because of the clear belly, green eyes, and many other of its characteristics..
But I guess only time will tell 

Joel.


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## oakelm (Jan 14, 2009)

alan1 said:


> 1/ what the hell is it...
> 2/ who the hell bought it...


Have no idea what it is, kind of looks burgundy but not quite right, to ghostly but doesnt look completely like a ghost, really cant tell from the pics. Very odd, especially the eyes. Only just realised it had sold as I wanted it :devil:, but wanted to see it in person first at the rep show in august to decide. Oh well.

Would love to know who did buy it and the results once they start breeding it.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 4, 2008)

Me to Emma, i would watch this progress with anticipation..



whatever it is, it is a gorgeous snake..


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

Normal, until it reproduces itself.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

Akua... give people a break will you...

i'm going to "reserve judgement" also... BUT, i (and others) dont think it can be "normal" with those grey/green eyes etc...

have you asked your best friend (justin kobylka) for his opinion, because "god only knows" how many he's seen...


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Im pretty sure there green 

Ive never seen a normal with green eyes :\


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

alan1 said:


> Akua... give people a break will you...
> 
> i'm going to "reserve judgement" also... BUT, i (and others) dont think it can be "normal" with those grey/green eyes etc...
> 
> have you asked your best friend (justin kobylka) for his opinion, because "god only knows" how many he's seen...


I can get where Daves coming from, hes just saying that as with any 'new' or unknown morph its just an odd looking normal until proven otherwise. 

However, that said this doesnt look much like a normal.. I wish good luck to whoever has bought it. If i had the money this week i would have been mightily tempted myself. If it turns out to be nothing then it was just an expensive gamble. It might turn out to be something special though. Only time will tell.


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

bosvark75 said:


> I admit it looks different but until its proved out its just a nice looking normal. If the sellers of odd looking Royals feel they are worth loads of money then why is the snake fior sale and why do they not keep it for themselves and breed it to see of it is a morph of some sort. Then it and the offspring would be worth a fortune.





Tops said:


> Thats what i always wonder. If you breed royals and have something you dont know what it is, why get rid of it? Surely having a pet project or a potential earner is a bonus.


To answer these two....... Money, or the lack of it....
The snake was being sold through a shop.... The shop owner and myself would of loved to have proved this snake out, but lack of ready funds meant someone else has the chance to try it out.



Tops said:


> However, that said this doesnt look much like a normal.. I wish good luck to whoever has bought it.


Agreed, it didn't look like any normal that I've ever seen.
And it has been said before..... You need to see it in the flesh before you can make any comments to what it may be....
I'm sure the new owner will keep us up to speed on what develops with this snake....


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

To me thats got to be worth the £800 or whatever it sold for.
Its not like any normal i've ever seen, initially i thought Lesser or weird Mojave or Fire, but doesn't really fit any of them.
Could turn out to be a nice tidy investment for someone.
BHB paid $50k for the Viper Ball, and it turned out to be just an odd normal, that must really have hurt !!


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

I think the point is, if someone has £800 or whatever they can afford to lose if it doesn't prove out, that is great, they should go for it. It is a different looking snake. 

BUT, it may never prove out, and I am not entirely sure that everyone looking at the ad, or replying on this thread, or in general, understands that normals can look _incredibly_ funky, and have all sorts of odd markings, different colourings and clear bellies. 

It is also clearly not a caramel albino, and that was especially misleading. Not to mention the snake itself doesn't look in great condition and may never be a good enough feeder to get to a breedable weight, if it isn't already. 

Hogboy, have you a photo of the viper ball please?


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

midori said:


> Hogboy, have you a photo of the viper ball please?


Indeed i have -)
Was actually $65 K


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## PAULLAURA (Aug 13, 2008)

Ive seen that viperball pic before and it is amazing that it is a normal type.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

viper ball... stunning base colour... and thats a normal????????????


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## hogboy (Aug 22, 2006)

alan1 said:


> viper ball... stunning base colour... and thats a normal????????????


The most expensive normal ever bought :lol2:
But thats the chance you take i guess ?


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## PAULLAURA (Aug 13, 2008)

I bet BHB have scored more times than theyve lost though!!!:whistling2:


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## wolfspirit (Dec 4, 2008)

If this snake proves out, what will the babies be worth?


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## Tops (Apr 26, 2007)

wolfspirit said:


> If this snake proves out, what will the babies be worth?


lots of factors to figure really. Depends if there if its dominant/recessive, if there is a superform etc.

If its reproducable it would be worth not selling the babies for a few years to see what you can do with it


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)




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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

alan1 said:


> Akua... give people a break will you...
> 
> i'm going to "reserve judgement" also... BUT, i (and others) dont think it can be "normal" with those grey/green eyes etc...
> 
> have you asked your best friend (justin kobylka) for his opinion, because "god only knows" how many he's seen...


Granted it does not look like your average normal, but having not been bred before it's kinda hard to go around slapping "Caramel", "Fire", "Lesser" and "Mojave" on the animal with no breeding history.

Like I said, it's an interesting animal and 100% worth dinking with, however it is just that, a dinker. Normal until proven otherwise.


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## rachel132002 (Dec 4, 2006)

To me it looks like a Burgundy, there were a few floating around a couple years back one looking nigh on the same to this and none of them produced offspring so none have proved one way or another.

As said it's worth a play but isn't anything until it proves itself to be and unfortunately these Burgundies just haven't proved themselves in many cases, i don't know if they have over in the US of A but i'm certainly not aware of any here doing the business.


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## repkid (Nov 30, 2007)

Looks like an extremely pale washed out mojave to me. Or maybe the same but lesser.


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## boidae (Jul 14, 2008)

look's like a naff butter.
either way it has potential, if it's a line of it's own or become's a type of it's own, but chances are being a dinker project it doesnt prove out.

can only speculate.


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## michael keeling (May 3, 2008)

would be a nice little project to find out more


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## ignorantshed (Jul 19, 2007)

Tbh i thought it kinda looked lesser ish at first, but its just not, im with dave its defo a 'dinker', but there are so many really nice 'dinker normals' in collections that havnt proven out and this could be just one of those. But for whoever bought good luck in proving it out, would be awesome to see something new prove out of this snake


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## STRATJAZZTELE (May 25, 2009)

Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> Granted it does not look like your average normal, but having not been bred before it's kinda hard to go around slapping "Caramel", "Fire", "Lesser" and "Mojave" on the animal with no breeding history.
> 
> Like I said, it's an interesting animal and 100% worth dinking with, however it is just that, a dinker. Normal until proven otherwise.


I find it very difficult to accept that people keep shouting "normal". It plainly is NOT "normal". It may or may not be reproducable, this however still does not mean normal. Have you or any one else yet managed to reproduce a jungle ball? No, thats because it wont prove out. It's still a jungle though.............yes? If a striped morph has a stripe, its still sold for more money........it looks nice and has a stripe! It too is not "normal" it is DIFFERENT. 
Thank god the Americans can be bothered to create and look for new morphs, the uk just seems to want to steal their thunder and replicate the hype they create. Thumbs up to the buyer, balls of steal mate..........good luck (pun intended).


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

STRATJAZZTELE said:


> I find it very difficult to accept that people keep shouting "normal". It plainly is NOT "normal". It may or may not be reproducable, this however still does not mean normal. Have you or any one else yet managed to reproduce a jungle ball? No, thats because it wont prove out. It's still a jungle though.............yes? If a striped morph has a stripe, its still sold for more money........it looks nice and has a stripe! It too is not "normal" it is DIFFERENT.
> Thank god the Americans can be bothered to create and look for new morphs, the uk just seems to want to steal their thunder and replicate the hype they create. Thumbs up to the buyer, balls of steal mate..........good luck (pun intended).


Hate to piss on your parade, Jungle Ball has been reproduced.
I think you're taking the term "Normal" too literally, Normal, in Ball Python terms means unproven wild type. This snake is a good dinking project, yes. But it certainly isn't a morph until it's actually proven.


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## Barry.M (May 19, 2006)

STRATJAZZTELE said:


> I find it very difficult to accept that people keep shouting "normal". It plainly is NOT "normal". It may or may not be reproducable, this however still does not mean normal. Have you or any one else yet managed to reproduce a jungle ball? No, thats because it wont prove out. It's still a jungle though.............yes? If a striped morph has a stripe, its still sold for more money........it looks nice and has a stripe! It too is not "normal" it is DIFFERENT.
> Thank god the Americans can be bothered to create and look for new morphs, the uk just seems to want to steal their thunder and replicate the hype they create. Thumbs up to the buyer, balls of steal mate..........good luck (pun intended).


Just to say,great use of CAPITALS,and the Jungle has been proven out and reproduced.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Hate to piss on your parade, But it is a morph 

Theres 2 type of breeders, Americans, Who adventure with new morphs and spend the money...
and the British... The sheep who just buy there morphs :lol:


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Hate to piss on your parade, But it is a morph
> 
> Theres 2 type of breeders, Americans, Who adventure with new morphs and spend the money...
> and the British... The sheep who just buy there morphs :lol:


It is NOT a Morph, it is a "dinker" which could later prove to be a morph.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> It is NOT a Morph, it is a "dinker" which could later prove to be a morph.


It is a morph...
Go and research...


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> It is a morph...
> Go and research...


:lol2: What makes it a PROVEN Morph?

It is a "Dinker" which is unproven and needs to be proven out to be defined as a "Morph". 

I have several Normals here that I am dinking with, but none of them are Morphs, at the end of the day, nice Normals.


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

A morph is a animal that is diffrent to a standard type... So You have lots a moprhs, Just unproven ones.... :lol:
Never once said it was proven  

JOel.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> A morph is a animal that is diffrent to a standard type... So You have lots a moprhs, Just unproven ones.... :lol:
> Never once said it was proven
> 
> JOel.


 
So, how do you define 'standard type' because they differ so hugely, surely until it is proven that makes it just a normal?


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

midori said:


> So, how do you define 'standard type' because they differ so hugely, surely until it is proven that makes it just a normal?




Answers.com - Online Dictionary, Encyclopedia and much more type in morph... read the definition...


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

Sure.....


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

midori said:


> So, how do you define 'standard type' because they differ so hugely, surely until it is proven that makes it just a normal?


Normal = wild type = standard type = the most common form found in the wild.

I agree with the poster who wrote that the snake in the picture is not a normal. Whether the cause of the abnormal coloration is genetic or environmental still has to be figured out.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

i'd be AMAZED if "that" royal was "just a normal"... its got too many "non normal" things going on...

BUT... i tend to agree with "akua/dave", that it HAS to be proven to be "labelled" a morph...


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## DazedLewis (Aug 21, 2008)

with the 'normals' that have such abherrant patterning, surely there are SOME genes there in order to make that pattern appear on that specimen, but maybe more needs to be done to access them?


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## Caz (May 24, 2007)

Ignoring the 'brand' names put on different colour morphs the snake certainly has reduced melanine and is therefore hypomelanistic, purely by definition.

Whether the hypomelanism is genetic or a mutated gene remains to be seen, but in itself it cannot be described as 'normal.'

(And who the fcuk came up with the word 'dinker' :lol2::bash


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## DazedLewis (Aug 21, 2008)

Caz said:


> Ignoring the 'brand' names put on different colour morphs the snake certainly has reduced melanine and is therefore hypomelanistic, purely by definition.
> 
> Whether the hypomelanism is genetic or a mutated gene remains to be seen, but in itself it cannot be described as 'normal.'
> 
> (And who the fcuk came up with the word 'dinker' :lol2::bash


 Sounds American


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

I think the underlying issue here is the use of the word "Normal". Normals are highly variable, and anything ever so slightly different to the "Normal" characteristics is labelled a "dinker" to be proved out to see if that trait is genetic. This animal has plenty of traits that are worth playing with, but that does not make it a Morph from the off. It has to be worked with, and I wish all the best to whoever bought it.


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## STRATJAZZTELE (May 25, 2009)

Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> Hate to piss on your parade, Jungle Ball has been reproduced.
> I think you're taking the term "Normal" too literally, Normal, in Ball Python terms means unproven wild type. This snake is a good dinking project, yes. But it certainly isn't a morph until it's actually proven.


I stand corrected, thanks Dave. However, if you had a royal that was green with purple spots and yellow stripes, I do not believe would not describe it as normal. I think the term is and should remain "unproven morph" how does that sound? Normal describes just that, a black, brown, tan and gold coloured snake with dark brown eyes. : victory:


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## STRATJAZZTELE (May 25, 2009)

paulh said:


> Normal = wild type = standard type = the most common form found in the wild.
> 
> I agree with the poster who wrote that the snake in the picture is not a normal. Whether the cause of the abnormal coloration is genetic or environmental still has to be figured out.


 Some sense here, obvious, common sense. Nice work.


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## STRATJAZZTELE (May 25, 2009)

Caz said:


> Ignoring the 'brand' names put on different colour morphs the snake certainly has reduced melanine and is therefore hypomelanistic, purely by definition.
> 
> Whether the hypomelanism is genetic or a mutated gene remains to be seen, but in itself it cannot be described as 'normal.'
> 
> (And who the fcuk came up with the word 'dinker' :lol2::bash


Some nice American I expect. I agree completely with this post.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

STRATJAZZTELE said:


> I stand corrected, thanks Dave. However, if you had a royal that was green with purple spots and yellow stripes, I do not believe would not describe it as normal. I think the term is and should remain "unproven morph" how does that sound? Normal describes just that, a black, brown, tan and gold coloured snake with dark brown eyes. : victory:


That's what the confusion is, the meaning or interpretion of the word "Normal".

A "Dinker" or "unproven" is a great name for this particular animal, rather than stating it is a Morph as gospel as done by the original poster.


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## STRATJAZZTELE (May 25, 2009)

Akua_Ko_Nalu said:


> That's what the confusion is, the meaning or interpretion of the word "Normal".
> 
> A "Dinker" or "unproven" is a great name for this particular animal, rather than stating it is a Morph as gospel as done by the original poster.


 Since we're not American, maybe "unproven"? Ha :lol2:


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

talking of americans... i wonder what they would think of the "wild caught"?...

yawn, yawn...
or
mmm, interesting...


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Whatever it is, I like!
I definitely think its nothing to do with mojave's, butter's, or lesser's though...It has a washed out brown and tan colour.In my mind if you were to brighten them up (as it may have appeared when younger) it would consist of rich browns with a very light brown...So as per the title, like a caramel albino, but possibly darker?


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

Ralph Davis Reptiles - The Martrix - Proven/Unproven Traits
This is the closest morph I think it looks like


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

reptile_man_08 said:


> Ralph Davis Reptiles - The Martrix - Proven/Unproven Traits
> This is the closest morph I think it looks like


Looks nothing like it : victory:


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## reptile_man_08 (Jan 14, 2008)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Looks nothing like it : victory:


Ahh, well as everyone was making comparisons I thought I may as well have a go!:lol2:


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## SNAKEWISPERA (Aug 27, 2007)

reptile_man_08 said:


> Ralph Davis Reptiles - The Martrix - Proven/Unproven Traits
> This is the closest morph I think it looks like





reptile_man_08 said:


> Ahh, well as everyone was making comparisons I thought I may as well have a go!:lol2:


:lol:

It looks wierd in real life.


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

alan1 said:


> talking of americans... i wonder what they would think of the "wild caught"?...
> 
> yawn, yawn...
> or
> mmm, interesting...


Alan, I'm sure over in the US it would be bred from and tried to prove out! Just like it would here.


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

yeah, totally agree dave...

but, seeing as "us lot" still hav'nt got a clue, i was wondering if "them over there" have EVER seen anythin similar, or, if indeed it "could" be somethin new...


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## Akua_Ko_Nalu (Feb 15, 2007)

alan1 said:


> yeah, totally agree dave...
> 
> but, seeing as "us lot" still hav'nt got a clue, i was wondering if "them over there" have EVER seen anythin similar, or, if indeed it "could" be somethin new...


Quite possibly, I think getting some mor Hi-Res pictures would be a good first step, and posting up on Kingsnake.com or Bp.net. Get some opinions!


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## SWMorelia (May 15, 2007)

Unfortunately, the snake has gone into a private collection, so unless the new owner post to keep everyone updated, we'll never know what this snake turns out.
And as he isn't coming forward, I guess he wants anonymity, plus he may not be a member here.


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## rachel132002 (Dec 4, 2006)

SNAKEWISPERA said:


> Hate to piss on your parade, But it is a morph
> 
> Theres 2 type of breeders, Americans, Who adventure with new morphs and spend the money...
> and the British... The sheep who just buy there morphs :lol:



A lot of US breeders have 'bought' their morphs, how do you think Noah gets to be 'the man' so to speak...he has more on people like NERD and RDR than anyone, most people can't even get near him.

Also Eric Davies produced the first black eyed leucy from the fires, one for the UK there...

I won't deny that the USA has more than us but they don't have it ALL and are not the be all and end all of royals.

I still stand by yours looking very much like a Burgundy a friend of mine once had that didn't breed, he sold it and i think it may have been Jacobs Ecology who bought it but i'm not sure, they had one for sale too a while back but again i'm sure it didn't prove...either it never bred or it wasn't worked with long enough to be proven but i'm sure if it had bred and proven we'd know by now as it was a good 2-3yrs back i'm sure.

Yours may or may not breed and may or may not prove, i wouldn't say it's NORMAL but i would only class it as Burgundy right now which isn't proven to any extent yet.


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## albinoroyal (Feb 12, 2008)

well morph or not morph one good thing is that its eating so i have been told, 3 multi's so next stage is proving it out,fingers crossed for the lucky owner


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

multi's rock!!!...

had 3 NON-feeders that had'nt fed for many months - tried multi's - i now have NO non-feeders... :notworthy:


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## luke c (Dec 20, 2008)

i may haf to get me a few of those as my male still aint eating :bash:


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## alan1 (Nov 11, 2008)

he should start again fairly soon luke, stay with the rats mate...
i've got 3 males who have just had their 1st feed since november, and a few that are still not interested


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