# PKL - Ceasing



## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi, 

After much thought, considerations and deliberations, l have decided to close down the Pro Keepers Lobby. My own politics have changed considerably in the last 12 months, with an emphasis on the last 6 months. Close colleagues and myself have been in discussion concerning this decision, and l can say it was not easily reached and was not a light passing.

I look upon the industry with different eyes to how l did 5 years ago, and whilst legislation has finally moved on in leaps and bounds, l see no change to the industry that it so deeply affects.

Whilst my views and opinions are still strong for specialist, dedicated, motivated and energetic keepers, l can not look at the politics that so many do in the way that they do any longer.

TSKA - The Specialist Keepers' Association has its own 'brand' of political belief, this being supporting legislation that concerns husbandry and ethics behind such issues, and because of our own thoughts, we can no longer see the path being open for the lobby per se.

There are a large community of keepers in the United Kingdom that are deeply concerned with the state of play with regards to all animals and how they are maintained regarding animals welfare, but insufficient motivation to sustain a lobby aimed at that.

The ADG's have this market sewn up, and it will only be a matter of time before the rest of this industry realises that. Political parties that could have the keepers backing are too small and would become underfunded and mismanaged due to an incredible variety and range in beliefs and direction of what should and should not be.

From this point in time, all legislational concerns will be displayed within TSKA for one and all to view as they so require. But will only concentrate efforts upon what is imperative and integral to the animals and the keepers themselves.

Thanks For Reading

Rory Matier
The Specialist Keepers Association.


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

All differences aside, its interesting to see that two recently closed threads contain a total of 28547 views and 634 replies, many purporting to be by concearned keepers and involving welfare and the law.

Yet, when the one man who has most openly brought these issues to the public over the last year says he is ceasing, whats he get?

28 views and NO replies.

Its a shame things have gone they way they have Rory, the hobby does need people who are not afraid to stand up and be heard, or to be regarded as the anti christ .

Good luck.

Tony


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## CBR1100XX (Feb 19, 2006)

Comparing it to the viewings and posts on a locked thread discussing the deaths of animals is not the same is it. Nice to see that these threads that involved yourself are brought up again at a time where Rory should be receiving thanks for his help. 

Some may not be into the political side of reptile keeping so as Rory knows may not even understand what the PKL was or did but I think all who keep reptiles would be concerned about unnecessary deaths regardless of who is at fault if anyone.

To Rory I think many do understand the work you have put into PKL even if they may not have seen or responded to this thread and thank you for it in there own way. I hope that you still have a similar involvement even without PKL running. Even though as you are aware from talking in the past I am not into the political side I still feel that people like you are needed within the hobby. I wish you luck in whatever you decide.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

My thanks to all.

It is not that l have given up as some have said onto me recently.

The Pro Kepers Lobby, l believe would have worked some years back, perhaps even when l first began looking at politics seriously within this industry.

It is just that it simply does not fit in - that is it. Its agenda lost track, l have made mention to this quite recently. My beliefs are firmer now than they were some years ago when l was simply naive.

My respect for the keepers within this field alone is quite probably much higher than in my own mammal field, for at least the reptile keepers - have had me hammering them for the last year with what is going on, and RFUK has and must take a lot of credit for that for allowing the facility to write politically in the first place, whereas many mammal forums still either do not wish for this information or are very slow at accepting that - unlike the mammal keepers who still have their heads in the sand!

And because of this, and especially not being a reptile keeper per se myself except by default of Nerys' collection, l will always have a fondness for.

So, the fact that PKL does/did not fit in, hardly surprising with all the errors that this industry has seen from societies, clubs and political groups over the last five years - but it did arouse emotions within for more keepersto think about what is happening within this industry and challenge where needs be, and to not be afraid to speak out.

Tony, 'without predujice' l now write.

Threads such as the ones you speak of, will incite much emotion and response - for obvious reasons - political threads - unless they were a debate of which response could be guaranteed, a remark in which answers were expected and so on, a simple statement such as my original post was not designed to receive massive responses - it was simple directive as in 'This is what we are doing - this is what is happening'.

What responses are there to be had in reality?

It is only a poltical faction that is disappearing, it is not the believing of the keepers or their charges that is going, nor is it the complete absence of the support. It is simply a brand that is breaking down through lack of committment and motivation towards that brand, not just by the keepers, viewers etc, but also by the creators.

We can do just as much good work within the TSKA brand as we could do or have done with PKL.

TSKA as a brand is non aggressive, it is objective.

PKL as a brand - WAS aggressive, as were the campaigns, no, this is NOT the way forwards - the way forwards is to display the facts only. 

Application, rather than implication. The truth only.

Thanks For Reading

Rory Matier


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## purejurrasic (Mar 18, 2006)

In fact, if my reply is read with an open mind, its pointing out that people cant wait to jump on the bandwagon, yet when some one who really did try do something stopped, no one was bothered.

Sy, your reply is classic, you see my post, you assume you think you know what I am saying, and then put your boot right in it

Whatever differences there may be now, Rory DID try to bring things to the open.

Its a shame thats changing.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

A wise decision Rory.... the right one.

You know my views on Welfare, the hobby and the people within it. You also know my views on the politics around it.

Best wishes for the future of TSKA my friend.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

A good decision for you to have made Rory, and I also firmly believe the right one for you, given the way things are now.

Wishing you and Nerys every success for the future.

Mo.xxxxxxxxx


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## gtm (Jan 23, 2008)

I've always found your posts interesting Rory & I think the decision to close PKA is a wise one - there is enough 'militancy' on both sides of the fence.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

My own experience of Rory's posts is that they've not contributed all that much to reptile keeping simply because, as Rory openly admits, he's not a reptile keeper himself. I have to admit, though, that I've not really followed Rory's posts that closely (because of the reason I've just mentioned) so I could have missed something that would suggest otherwise. 

I agree with purejurassic, our hobby does need people who aren't afraid to stand up and be heard, but those people need to actually be a part of our hobby, not "external observers" with no hand-on experience in the subject matter they wish to create a debate around. 

cheers

Stuart


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

essexchondro said:


> My own experience of Rory's posts is that they've not contributed all that much to reptile keeping simply because, as Rory openly admits, he's not a reptile keeper himself. I have to admit, though, that I've not really followed Rory's posts that closely (because of the reason I've just mentioned) so I could have missed something that would suggest otherwise.
> 
> I agree with purejurassic, our hobby does need people who aren't afraid to stand up and be heard, but those people need to actually be a part of our hobby, not "external observers" with no hand-on experience in the subject matter they wish to create a debate around.
> 
> ...


The PKL (Pro Keepers Lobby) that Rory created and has now closed was aimed at keepers of all species of animals, not just reptiles.


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

Well for what it's worth, I thought Rory was an excellent all rounder, and although Rory may not have been heavily involved with reptiles, his partner Nerys is, and has a great deal of experience with many species of reptiles, and was never far from Rory's side, and I am sure Rory consulted with Nerys, so that in my eyes made Rory a very good spokes person. 

Rory also manged to keep his cool 99.0% of the time even when insults were flying his way, and reply back politely. Rory also has common sense, plus intelligence, and cares deeply for all of the creatures. 

It will be interesting to see now how many within the hobby that are always quick to criticize, will come forward and offer their help in their own spare time, in guiding the hobby forward in the right way, and that will dip into their own pockets in order to fund certain things.

Mo.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> The PKL (Pro Keepers Lobby) that Rory created and has now closed was aimed at keepers of all species of animals, not just reptiles.


But the problem with such a generalist approach is that you end up with people commenting on things that they have no first hand experience in (e.g Rory commenting on reptile keeping). I'm just not sure I understand what good can come from such a situation. Enthusiasm only gets you so far.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

The PKL was on the politics regarding the keeping of any animal not on the care or nature of the animals themselves. 

Any member of the PKL did not need to have knowledge of keeping reptiles, only on the politics of keeping them. I believe Rory was very well covered here with the help of Chris Newman, the chairman of both the FBH and FOCAS.... I can't really think of anyone better placed to help the PKL with the politics of reptile keeping.

PKL did not consist solely of Rory mate.... but the amount of abuse he took in it's name, he deserves a medal.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> The PKL was on the politics regarding the keeping of any animal not on the care or nature of the animals themselves.
> 
> Any member of the PKL did not need to have knowledge of keeping reptiles, only on the politics of keeping them. I believe Rory was very well covered here with the help of Chris Newman, the chairman of both the FBH and FOCAS.... I can't really think of anyone better placed to help the PKL with the politics of reptile keeping.
> 
> PKL did not consist solely of Rory mate.... but the amount of abuse he took in it's name, he deserves a medal.


But the point is that Rory *did* make judgemental comments on the care and nature of certain aspects of reptile keeping, despite having no first hand experience in what he was actually commenting on. That's what I have a problem with; nothing more, and nothing to do with the the PKL and their political stance (which I've not commented on and know very little about).


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

But that has nothing to do with this thread. 

This thread is Rory anouncing that PKL is closing... so what do his opinions on reptile keeping ( although he is actually very informed thanks in no small part to Nerys who has an amazing reptile collection ) have to do with it ?


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> But that has nothing to do with this thread.
> 
> This thread is Rory anouncing that PKL is closing... so what do his opinions on reptile keeping ( although he is actually very informed thanks in no small part to Nerys who has an amazing reptile collection ) have to do with it ?


If high ranking members of the PKL are making husbandry related judgements on things that they know little about it could have the effect of creating divisions amongst keepers (I know his "armchair theorising" on reptile husbandry has aggrivated me in the past, anyway). I'm sure one of the aims of the PKL was to unite keepers, not divide them. So, whilst Rory and the PKL are not one and the same, they are closely linked in that regard, and so maybe the PKL isn't fit for purpose.


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

It seems to me like you are just trying to start an argument or fan the flames of a dead one by making your own judgements and opinions known about a subject you have stated you know nothing about.


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## essexchondro (Apr 9, 2007)

> It seems to me like you are just trying to start an argument or fan the flames of a dead one by making your own judgements and opinions known about a subject you have stated you know nothing about.


1 You seem to be suggesting that its OK for Rory to make judgements and have opinions about a subject that he knows little about (the care and husbandry of reptile keeping), but it wouldn't be OK for me to do the same.

2 I haven't actually made any judgements on things I know nothing about. The only comments I have made on the PKL and the "politics of keeping" have been responses to information that you yourself have given me in this thread...and my initial comments regarding Rory's posts were, as I clearly stated, based on my own experiences of those posts. 

cheers

Stuart


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Actually I was suggesting that it seemed to be the case that it was apparently wrong for Rory to give his opinions and judgements on things that in your opinion he knew nothing about but it was OK for you to do so.

If you did know anything about the PKL and about Rory, you would know that he actually did seek the opinions and input of many respected members of the reptile community before posting anything relating to the welfare or politics of keeping reptiles. As far as I am aware, the only times he posted his personal opinions is if someone asked for his personal opinions and he responded to those as himself and not as a spokesperson of the PKL.

However I am not going to waste any more time arguing that White is indeed White.


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## Andy (Jul 27, 2005)

This isn't a dig or trying to be clever but what did the PKL actually do or achieve? I know alot of threads were made here but what were they actually doing and what are we going to miss now its ceased?


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

The PKL was basically keeping up to date on the politics and legality of animal keeping with regard to the AWA and the possible repercussions of it and what is going on around the world with regard to legislation affecting the keeping of animals in captivity.

Now it's closing. We will just have to find out the information for ourselves or know who to ask.


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

ratboy said:


> The PKL was basically keeping up to date on the politics and legality of animal keeping with regard to the AWA and the possible repercussions of it and what is going on around the world with regard to legislation affecting the keeping of animals in captivity.
> 
> Now it's closing. We will just have to find out the information for ourselves or know who to ask.


Are you stepping forward for that job?:lol2:


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## ratboy (Jan 10, 2007)

Trice said:


> Are you stepping forward for that job?:lol2:


No way


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## Trice (Oct 4, 2006)

ratboy said:


> No way


Got everyone excited then mate.


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## sparkle (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks for updating us Rory whilst I did not always agree with the approach of the PKL I understood the passion and politics behind it all. I like and admire opinionated forthright attitudes amongst all types of people, even if at times I vehemently disagree with their thoughts and objectives.

I think this is the right decision and will allow some breathing space to concentrate on perhaps more valued projects and objectives.

Good Luck


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## Maureen Collinson (Oct 6, 2006)

essexchondro said:


> 1 You seem to be suggesting that its OK for Rory to make judgements and have opinions about a subject that he knows little about (the care and husbandry of reptile keeping), but it wouldn't be OK for me to do the same.
> 
> 2 I haven't actually made any judgements on things I know nothing about. The only comments I have made on the PKL and the "politics of keeping" have been responses to information that you yourself have given me in this thread...and my initial comments regarding Rory's posts were, as I clearly stated, based on my own experiences of those posts.
> 
> ...




Excuse me Stuart, but when you say you have not made any judgments on things you know nothing about, I have to ask............................. Is that not *just* what you are doing, judging Rory's expertise, reptile wise for example. Rory and Nerys have been together now for enough time for Rory to indeed have gained quite a lot more knowledge than many reptile keepers out there. When judging over all experience, the person that has access to many species usually has generally much better knowledge than say a person keeping just a few species for many years. With Nerys's vast range of animals including many species of reptiles, which Rory helps with, as well as watching, studying etc, I would say that Rory has got experience, and living with Nerys alone would ensure that due to her vast knowledge and the different species of reptiles they now *keep together*, that Rory has got quite a lot of expertise, in fact more than he himself might even realize, and he continues to learn more every day of their lives together.

I would in summing up, say that by assuming that Rory knows nothing, *you are being judgmental, *and therefore pot kettle comes to mind here. Rory might well say he personal does not know much, but I beg to differ as when I talk to Rory, I find his knowledge quite in depth, and I know that Rory would indeed have the means at his disposal to answer more than most on this reptile forum, which brings me to a very old and proven saying that behind every great man is a good woman.

Another question for you now Stuart please? How can you allow yourself to *judge*, from just a little experience of Rory's post's just how experienced Rory truly is today with reptiles? I make this comment after having read how you did not bother to follow many of Rory's posts, (said by yourself in one of your posts,) meaning you surely may not have a good enough over all view with which to comment correctly from? 

I can't believe that Rory could place an announcement here that he was closing PKL and that with your attitude towards Rory, you could not have stayed quiet on this occasion, after all the person that you disagreed with being at the fore front of the PKL was going, yet you have still felt the need to kick and bruise Rory all the way out. It places you personally in a very bad light Stuart, and if I were to do as you do, and *judge* by what I have learnt about you on this forum, then the hobby is in the quick sand, so everyone keep very still now, as the more you struggle, the quicker you will all sink.

Mo.


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## dingy (Apr 4, 2006)

Rory I have always enjoyed reading your posts and would like to wish you well for the future.


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Hi, 

I never realised by making the post that l was closing the PKL, that l or it, so to speak would get so much attention, was not the intention.

Pro Keepers Lobby was originally fuelled by a completely different guideline - it was never meant to be a lobby per se aimed with animal keeprs in mind - no far from it. There are indeed only a few people who knew its original path, Ratboy and Chris Newman are two.

It originally was going to be a website looking at the futures of keeping animals and the state of play for animals in captivity in the year 2030 and beyond. However it digressd into what it was because of issues being discussed in the original content of that website.

Enough of that.

It is a good question as to what did PKL actually achieve, in some ways much, in other ways very little.It had the following and beliefs of many keepers, but it lost its way, this l have already said. But it made people think and rethink.

I will not continually go over and over the ins and outs of the lobby as it is pointless. The credo 'l know what l believe and l believe what l know' springs to mind with regards this industry and the relating hobbies.

Stuart, the attempts to call me out l find humerous, you and l only ever had contact in one debate - Rubs - this is the only history of crossing words.

I don't like them, never have, and never will. I do not stand alone in this, other respected keepers also have these same views, but l aggrevated you with my opinion. That is it, case closed.

PKL was about opinion, strong minded opinions about politics, legislation and animal welfare - many would say it was the harbinger of bad news - yet scaremongering is only as fearful as those who perceive it to be.

I still have very strong views on animal keeping, its politics and its industry, too strong for even PKLs military might -l have said my politics have changed, and those whom know me very well, know what they are. And with my new views on politics it would just be considered too harsh even for this section, so l will not voice them, little snippets have been seen in some previous posts. They are not anti keeping, but could easily be read as such.

However, l will be looking at legislation now within TSKA, and not the strong opinions.

R


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

'Withnailed'


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## Testudo Man (Aug 3, 2005)

Rory...

It was a pleasure...

We had some fun along the way too...

If there was a chance to meet a forum member in person (such as yourself)...I'd jump at it...cheers...T.T.8)


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

I think this is the right decision and will allow some breathing space to concentrate on perhaps more valued projects and objectives.

Good Luck[/quote]


Thanks Sparkle, and you are right, with this quote above, l am looking to concentrate on more specialised areas, and prefer to display it under my own brand rather than that of PKL.



Cheers TT and ditto.

R


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

So sorry to hear that Rory but fully understand your reasoning. 

I really do wish you well in the future and you know if you ever need research doing etc you can call on me 

Big thanks to all the others who ran alongside PKL with notebooks and stacks of paperwork too


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## TSKA Rory Matier (May 27, 2007)

Very true Emma.

A big thanks to those keepers who chose to believe that this industry was indeed worth fighting for. 

My thanks to you all.

In the end, a total of 919 keepers believed in the aims of the PKL. We picked up an average of 8 new keepers across the boards of the hobbies, that believed that there were issues in the industry not being addressed properly, every month, and that was without pushing it.

TSKA will be addressing issues again, but in a different fashion.

R


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## brittone05 (Sep 29, 2006)

Shall keep an eye on TSKA hun. As you know, research and stuff is a good time filler for me - keeps me from my own brain ya know so am always happy to mooch about when needed


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