# Pretty Fish.



## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Right so, I need help please!
I have 2 Black Moors and a Golden Apple Snail. What other pretty fish can live with them? Pictures please!


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

I thought black moores were cold water and apple snails tropical, what temperature are you keeping them?


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

In my room the temperature fluctuates between 24-28*C. They're fine as far as I know, should I see about getting them seperated?


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## Stan193 (May 27, 2009)

You must like your heating, thats tropical! does the water stay that temp? I expect your room is colder than that at night or when your out?
for tropical id still recomment a heater just to make sure it stays at the correct temp all the time but I admit I tend to turn the heater off during the summer as its not needed. 
I dont know what temp range a black moor can tolerate but that sounds like the hot end to me.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Oh man.
I have underfloor heating and the radiator is turned on all the time. I'll find out the temperature of the water. 
Well then, it seems I might need some tropical fish to keep my Apple Snail company. Any ideas, relatively cheap would be good please!


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## hedgehog738 (Oct 6, 2009)

guppies,
mollies,
platys,
swordtails,
endlers,
zebra danioes,
orandas,
plecs.

can go warm or cold water.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Oh thanks!
I'll look up some pictures of them to get a good look.


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## Cheeky-x (Feb 2, 2009)

Ohh i love Guppies. They are very prettttty!


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## xvickyx (Jul 21, 2009)

yay guppies i love them too, they are so pretty! i love the ones with flame tails


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

OMG they're georgous! Would they live with my Black Moors?


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

In fact I love all of them!
Orandas especially. They were the ones I wanted to begin with but I didn't know what they where called lol 
Hmmm... I might need a bigger fish tank...


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

How many fish can I fit in a 25 Litre tank (h36xw40xd25.5cm)?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

well, sorry to say this, but 25 litre would do your snail. you have no problems keeping apple snails with goldfish at same temp, but your tank is far too small for your fish. black moors are fancy goldfish, they need at least 15 gallons for the 1st and 10 gallons per fish added after that. your moors alone need a 25 gallon tank minimum (approx 3ftx1ftx1ft). my moor is now coming up for 8 inches long and shes still growing. this is a picture of her with my 5-6inch red cap oranda.










if you keep your moors in this tank, they will become stunted and die early deaths. your tank would be good for mayby 5-8 guppies or platies, with a small school of 4-5 cory catfish. 

if your moors arent in this tank, scratch what ive said, but also, the only good tankmates for goldfish, are goldfish and dojo loaches. 

minimum tank sizes.

dojo loaches need at least a 4 ft tank,can grow to 12" long.
fancy goldfish need at least a 2.5-3ft tank can grow to 12" long.
common/comet/shubunkin goldfish need at least a 4ft tank can grow to 18" long.


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im sure it wont take long for people to start getting shirty with me for stating how much room goldfish need to grow to their full potential, but i love my goldies, and il try my best to educate fish keepers to try to get better lives for their wet-pets :flrt:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

No, my fish are in a smaller tank than that.
Damn, I officially hate my fish shop!
They said I wouldn't need to feed my Apple Snail, he would just feed off leftover fish food and stuff. So I didn't, he died, I got another one.
Now they sold me a fish tank way to small that will probably kill my fish to!
How quickly will they grow?, the tank will be well expensive I'm going to need some time to get a bigger one.

Ok, can I get a rough tank size that I'll need for two Black Moors and a Golden Apple Snail?

I'm fuming! :cussing:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Please.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

i know, its infuriating isnt it. feed your apple snail cucumber slices, just pop one in and weigh it down, i usually pierce a slice with a spoon and drop it in the tank so it sinks to the bottom and remove it after a night in there. your moors will probably snack on it too, my goldies love the stuff.

tank size. well moors have been known to grow to 14", chances are yours wont reach that size but you need to allow them space to grow incase their genetics will allow for that amount of growth.

you will need an absolute minimum 25-30 gallons. a 3ft x 1ft tank could do them for life, but ideally try for a 4ft+ as that will allow more water and space to swim, the water quality will be better for longer in larger amounts of water too. once you put them in a larger tank, the rate of growth will more than likely shock you. goldies grow so fast its unreal. 

a tall tank isnt as important as the footprint, goldfish generally do better in longer tanks with less height as the surface area is greater and they have high oxygen requirements.

you can buy 4ftx1ft tanks and lids in any pets at home. these would do you but if your fish do reach a foot long, obviously they will then be touching front and back when turning which isnt good for them so you may need to go larger again. you need plenty of filtration on the tank too, go for a filter rated for at least double your aquarium volumn, or if you cant find 1 filter rated for double, go for 2 filters rated for the tank you buy and run both.

just remember, you can never go too large when it comes to a goldfish aquarium :lol2:


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

just to add, you can always get a cheap 40g storage tub, and hook up a filter to that so at least they have decent amount of water to swim in while you save up. ive done this before, just make sure you really wash it out well, then fill it with dechlorinated water and rinse out again, then refill again with dechlorinated water and add the filter. also, add gravel etc from their old 'tank' to bring over some of the bacteria.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK thanks. Luckily I decided to Google Apple Snails to find out what I was doing wrong. I tried loads of different foods and found out mine prefers rotting fruit and vegetables.

Thanks alot. 25-30 Gallons sure is a lot. But I'll find something.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Will a biOrb be OK?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

no, bi-orbs are the worst for goldfish, they are glorified fish bowls. terrible things. sorry. they also dont come in large enough sizes regardless.

you will need 130-140 liters or larger.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK. How fast do they grow, I'd say mine are about 2". They look happy in their tank, but I guess not.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

48 inches x18 inches x18 inches tank for sale with hood and stand at Aquarist Classifieds
this would be good. you would probably be able to put together a much cheaper set-up if you shopped around but this is the kind of thing you could do with and you could add another fancy to them in a tank this size too.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

my 2" fantail i got around 2-3 months ago is now around 3" or so (hard to measure as they wiggle along :lol2. their growth depends on tank size/water quality. the more often you water change, the faster they will grow as their hormones will be diluted so as to lessen the stunting. at 2" you could get away with a 2ft tank, but as its very hard to tell when they start to stunt it would be better going for a larger tank from the off. also, fish all grow at different rates as their genetics play a role in it too. im not sure, i would go for the largest tank i could afford/fit in that could accomodate them at adult size, so i know x number of months down the line i wont have to upgrade again. then again, ive not bought fish that i cant house at adult size so i cant say what id really do. its a hard call im afraid, but its good you are weighing up your options and are willing to help your little finned friends live a long happy life :2thumb:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

I do feel really bad. I should of checked. I supposed as a Fish Shop Owner you don't have to worry about housing cause they'll be sold, he kept about 20 of them in a tank as big as that 25 litre. Thank you


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

yes, unfortunately the pet shops dont care how small the tanks are that these fish are in as usually its a fairly fast turn around and the fish dont become stunted in their care. also, if they sell lots of fish to any size tank, and the fish get ill, you will return to the shop time and again for treatments, then if they die, where do you go to buy more fish as your tank looks bare?! sad but true. if they said a goldfish needs a 25 gallon tank, they wouldnt sell many. saying a goldfish will live in a cheap plastic bowl will make them profit. unfortunately the goldfish is one of the most widely abused pet available. if more people spread the word about how they should be housed, eventually it will help to educate people to what they really need to know : victory:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Yeah, but then more will be left in the shops care in terribly inadequate housing. Viscous circle really. Well thank you for re-educating me and I will do all in my power to give my Black Moors a better chance of life. 
When I move them to a different tank, will I have to do anything special to the water and gravel? I'm also going to be getting a filter, will I have to treat that?
I clean them out between once and twice a week. I treat their water with a de-chlorinating and water purifying liquid. I leave it to sit 'till it reaches room temperature. I then add a jug full of the old water and put the fish in. I feed them a pinch of fish flakes every other day. This was what I knew to do, and what the shop told me. Is there anything I should change?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

ok, dont feed them flake, chuck it in the bin, it is useless and very bad for fancy goldfish. all the goodness seeps out of the flake almost the instant it hits the water, and it also floats, no fancy goldfish should be fed floating foods. saki hikari is a good quality sinking pellet food. it is quite expensive at around £10 a bag but it is worth it :2thumb:

the new tank. right, set it up where you want it, rinse it out and make sure there is no residue or dust in it from transporting it etc.

add the gravel from your old tank, dont rinse it out with tap water or anything, you can swill it around in the old water before adding it to the new tank is its really mucky. you will need extra gravel as your new tank will be bigger, make sure you mix it well with the old as if you put the new gravel on top of the old the bacteria will be starved of oxygen and die off.

dont bother using any of the old tank water, the only thing that will add is nitrates which you dont want. any good bacteria will be covering the gravel etc from the old tank, not in the wate column.

fill the tank up with dechlorinated water. the only thing you need to add is dechlorinator, you do not need to add any other chemicals. make sure the water is pre-treated with dechlorinator before it goes into the tank. use a bucket to pre-treat before pouring it in. you dont need to sit and wait for i to warm up to room temperature, just add warm water from the tap to bring it up to temp. run the hot tap for a few minutes first to run out any stagnant water from the pipes and ensure your dechlorinator binds heavy metals aswell as detoxifying chlorine and chloramines.

once the tank is filled you should add the filter. it will need no treatment apart from a quick swill of the filter media in some water to make sure no dust or anything is sitting in the sponge. just put it in according to the instructions and switch on. your filter should run 24/7 and only be switched off for maintainance.

once everythings up and running, add your fish back to the tank and keep tabs on your water parameters. you will need a test kit to test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. API master test are a good one, dont use test strips as they are inaccurate. its worth the extra cost to get a good test kit. dont allow your ammonia to go above 0.25ppm, its harmful and can be deadly to you fish, it will burn their gills, as will the nitrites. when your are testing and getting ammonia 0, nitrites 0, and a reading on your nitrates, you are considered cycled. you should keep you nitrates under control once you are cycled by doing regular once a week partial water changes with a gravel vac to get the debris from the gravel. nitrates should be kept under 40ppm.

when you are up and running, each time you do a partial water change, you should remove the filter media and swill it in old tank water to remove the worst of the debris. do not replace you filter media unless it is literally falling apart.

cant think of what else to say :lol2: my posts are like essays!


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

goldie1212 said:


> ok, dont feed them flake, chuck it in the bin, it is useless and very bad for fancy goldfish. all the goodness seeps out of the flake almost the instant it hits the water, and it also floats, no fancy goldfish should be fed floating foods. saki hikari is a good quality sinking pellet food. it is quite expensive at around £10 a bag but it is worth it :2thumb:
> 
> the new tank. right, set it up where you want it, rinse it out and make sure there is no residue or dust in it from transporting it etc.
> 
> ...


 * This has to be also in old tank water, I can't stress that enough: victory:

Great post Goldie, would you think about creating a thread about Goldies and have it stickied? we need a decent one for newbies no offence OP. Good to hear your sorting your fish out, you'll have plenty of time to save up before they grow to a size that they cant be in there no longer. In the mean time you could go out and buy a £10 internal filter to help with the bio-load, goldies are very messy fishes!:no1:


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

_jake_ said:


> * This has to be also in old tank water, I can't stress that enough: victory:
> 
> Great post Goldie, would you think about creating a thread about Goldies and have it stickied? we need a decent one for newbies no offence OP. Good to hear your sorting your fish out, you'll have plenty of time to save up before they grow to a size that they cant be in there no longer. In the mean time you could go out and buy a £10 internal filter to help with the bio-load, goldies are very messy fishes!:no1:


it wouldnt really matter for the swill off to be in tap water in this situation to be honest, being a new filter and new media, there would be zero bacteria in it anyway. saying that it is probably wiser to always keep in your head to use old tank water to clean out any filter media :2thumb:

i would create a goldie thread, but tend to second guess myself a hell of a lot and would worry id say something wrong :lol2:


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Oh I thought you said adding the old filters to the new tank?

Oh well don't worry then lol


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

ah, as far as im aware, the tank the 2 moors are in doesnt have a filter. this will be a new filter on a new bigger tank :2thumb:


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## strictly_scales (Sep 10, 2008)

Technically, the Black Moor is a Coldwater fish and the Apple Snails are sub-tropical. Naturally speaking, Golden Apple snails and the Goldfish originate from similar waters. And in practise, many fancy Coldfish available in the UK are bred in Tropical conditions abroad. 

So the only thing you need to watch is the level of fluctuation in the tank, and the Oxygen levels in the water. Higher temp = decreased dissolved Oxygen which can = disaster.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

I don't think I can keep my fish then.
It's soo much to do. I wouldn't be able to do it.
I don't have enough money to buy them a tank big enough let alone get all that.

:'(


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

aww no, such a shame, really sorry to hear. i mean, you can keep them in the same conditions you have them in now, but just be aware that they wont live long, will be stunted and die early, and you may end up with problems that cost a bit to treat. at least you know for next time how much cash/room goldfish actually take to set-up properly. 

you can get a cheap full set-up 2nd hand off ebay, ive seen 4ft tanks go for £30 before. even a 2ft tank would be better than what you have now, and 2nd hand filters go for next to nothing. freecycle is also a great site, theres always tanks going on there, just sign up to the one in your area.other than that, i guess you need to advertise them for a good new home in a decent size tank with a knowledgable new owner and hope they get the new home they need.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

I was going to get that 25 litre tank for them to live in.
I'm OK to buy the new food, I just can't afford a tank big enough for them to be in, but they might be stunted already. I can't afford the test kit either.

On August the 13th I will have had them for a year. I thought they were fine. Obviously not.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

if they are a year old and just 2" yes they are definately stunted. if you can do no more for them at least get them a filter, they are cheap to buy and will make a lot of difference to their little lives.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

I was going to get a filter with the new tank.
It comes with a filter and a heat pack but I shouldn't think I'll need any extra heat.
Well, they haven't grown since I saw them in the shop. So at least I can move them to a bigger tank with a filter get them some new food and make sure they are as comfartable as possible. And then, when the unfortunate time comes as they pass on, I'll make sure I do my own research first.

Will Guppies fit in a 25 litre? I was only looking for 3-4...


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

:2thumb: yes i would buy the new tank with the filter, maybe add some bunches of elodea or some other live plant, get them some new food which sinks and see how things go. 

a friend of mine had a common goldfish in a 13l tank and it lived for almost 3 years. it died a pretty nasty death which would have dragged out a long while if i hadnt euthanised it with clove oil but it seemed ok while it was alive. its sad, knowing what they can grow like, and how long they can live, but at least you are going to do your best for your 2 little guys. 

good luck with them and yes, 4 guppies would be fine in that tank when the time comes, just make sure they are all male so you dont end up with tons of fry :lol2:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Yeah, I heard they breed like noones business!

OK, filter, live plants, new food, anything else?

When I get the filter how often should I do a full water change?

I hope they do still live for a while. I love my fish, they're georgous =] X


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Argos - www.argos.co.uk

^ This is the tank I was hoping to buy. Does it look OK? It's £70 from Argos with a heat pack and filter.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

What combination of fish can I fit in a 25L tank?
They will be living with 2, 2" Black Moors. =]


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

honestly, for £70 you can get much better full set-up. im sure of it. thats very expensive, especially given you wont be needing a heater, even if you get guppies they do equally well in room temperature water, i dont heat my guppy tank and they are in my bedroom which tends to stay quite cool. il try to find some links to different set-ups in that price range. 

this is the cold water version of the tank you are looking at right? its just 24l. thats very small for that money.

Buy Cold Water Aquarium. at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for .

as for water changes, you will need to be doing them once a week at least. dont remove the fish, leave them in the tank, removing them will stress them. buy a gravel vac from pets at home, they come in different sizes and are cheap. they just syphon out the water into a bucket while you dig about in the gravel and it sucks out all the debris and drops the gravel back down.

this is 60l, brand new, its a full set-up, its just £5 more than the set-up you are looking at for double the amount of water, and can be delivered. much more fish friendly :2thumb: comes with everything you need plus a heater again but obviously you wont be needing that.

Hagen Elite Style 60 Tropical Aquarium Fish Tank 60L on eBay (end time 11-Apr-10 19:09:35 BST)


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

Lee2211 said:


> What combination of fish can I fit in a 25L tank?
> They will be living with 2, 2" Black Moors. =]


:gasp: are you kidding??? you are grossly overstocked with the 2 black moors, and you still want to add more fish? i thought you wanted to do the best for the fish you have? if so, no more fish, none, seriously.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

sorry, i didnt realise you are only 13, but seriously, you need to pay attention here. your fish are stunted form living in a tank which is too small. if you put them in a larger tank, they may grow some, but will still be stunted. adding more fish to them even in a larger tank really isnt fair, their bio-load is too large and all the fish in the tank will suffer. you need to put all you can into housing the pair of moors your have, not look into buying more fish. 

the only other option you have is rehome your moors, and buy some smaller cold water fish such as white clouds or getting a heater and some small tropicals such as small tetra or rasboras. no matter what you do you need to get a filter on any tank you own, most fish shops wont even sell a fish to an unfiltered tank. 

get yourself a nicer size new tank for your moors, let them live together with no other fish. their bioload is large, they are already stunted, but can still grow given more space and a good diet. please do not add more fish to your tank, its cruel.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK. So not the Argos tank then.

The man in the shop knew I wouldn't have a filter, he still sold me the tank and the fish anyway.

How am I supposed to suck the water out of tank and still have the fish in it?

Once a week still? I thought with a filter it wouldn't have to be cleaned as often. Oh well.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

That is an extremely big tank. It's lovely.
However, I don't think there's anywhere I can put it. It's too big for my desk, where it would've gone, and I think it might be too heavy for my desk to hold aswell :/ Bummer.
I will find something though, I'm determined.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

in reality, on a small amount of non filtered water like you have, you should be doing daily changes but its not really convenient and may stress the fish.

i have a 680 liter goldfish tank, i do weekly partial water changes on them, of around half the tank. all tanks need weekly-fortnightly water changes, the smaller the tank, the more frequent the changes.

a filter simply removes the debris from the water and increases the surface area in the tank for the good bacteria to grow on. the filter doesnt remove the poop etc form the tank as its an enclosed system.

i suggest you avoid the shop you went into the get the tank and fish. appalling that these days you can still buy fish for unfiltered tanks.

do you now know anyone with an ebay account so you can purchase the tank online for delivery? i really do not know what to suggest now other thank rehome your fish to someone with the room for them to have a decent life. 

The Gravel Vacuum - The First Tank Guide - Cleaning Your Aquarium Gravel this will tell you all about a gravel vacuum. they are cheap to buy, you can find them in pets at home among various other shops, they come in different sizes too. the one i have from pets at home has a valve in it so when its shaken up and down a couple of times in the water, they syphon starts automatically. you simply vacuum around the fish, they will stay out of the way, just make sure you leave just enough water in the tank to cover the fish in an upright position, then refill slowly as to not disturb the fish and swish them around in there.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

Lee2211 said:


> That is an extremely big tank. It's lovely.
> However, I don't think there's anywhere I can put it. It's too big for my desk, where it would've gone, and I think it might be too heavy for my desk to hold aswell :/ Bummer.
> I will find something though, I'm determined.


trust me, that is not a big tank. measure out the footprint of the tank, it really isnt big. i have a 60l tank in my kitchen, they take up very little room. if you cant fit it on there then you will need to find a small sturdy table to put it on. maybe they can go somewhere else in the house rather than in your room?


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hmm...
My mum has an eBay account. 
I don't really use my desk as a desk. I could ask mum. 
It would still have the room on it for the mirror. Not that I have one on there now anyway.
I'll ask. It's either that trying to find a table to put it on in the living room...
We're moving house you see so when we moved in we were going to get a new tank for them. I'll see what we can do =]


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

:2thumb: sounds ideal. that tank is a bargain IMO compared to some of the tanks you see for sale in shops. you would still be better off going 2nd hand and getting larger but this would certainly be a massive step-up for your 2 little guys :2thumb:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

As long as they're happy I don't care.
Mum will just have to put up with it 
That fish food you mentioned earlier, would I be able to get it from a local garden centre?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

yes its usually stocked at garden centres, in their fish departments. i use saki hikari, its expensive though, at around £10 per bag. it does last a very long time though and its one of the best for fancy goldfish. thers another sinking hikari pellet food aswell but i cant think what one it is.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK thanks a lot.
I'm going to go get some now 
How often should I feed them this and how much?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

in a tank that small, a few pellets each once per day at most id say.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK.
Well there wasn't any of that, but I bought some sinking pellets for cold water aquariam fish that should last until we get some more.
We also found a tank and a filter. The tank is (lxhxd) 62x38x38 cm. I'm rather pleased as it's £25 plus about £5 for the filter =] 
I saw the black moors in there. He had about 25 in a tank about half the size of the one mentioned above. How long does it take them to get stunted? I think some of his might be already ):


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

That tank is about 60L I believe. That would be alot better. Have you bought the tank already? If so I would read up the Nitrogen Cycle before moving your fish in.

How to Cycle a Fish Tank - Oscarfishlover.com


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

We've asked the shop to reserve it and we're buying it Monday =] I think it's a bit of a bargain!
The Nitrogeon cycle? OK...


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

that tank sounds much better, and with a filter too thats a good price :2thumb:

in a pet shop they will keep the fish in poor conditions, but the turn around of the fish being sold means most of them wont be in the tank long enough to make much difference. where i got some of my fish from, they were in 1ft tanks, but each week there were new fish as they sold pretty quickly,and the ones that were in there a while were dropped down into their 8ft tanks underneath. 

its the bigger fish that tend to get left behind, i got my 7 inch blue oranda girl from a 1.5ft tank, she had been gifted in by someone who could no longer keep her. i saw her in the shop for 4 weeks before i decided i couldnt see her sit in that tiny tank any longer. i paid £20 for her, and she had been in the small tank so long that her muscles had started to deteriorate, she struggled to swim properly and it took her a good few weeks of good diet and lots of swimming before she got as well as she is now. she now spawns every 2-3 weeks, swims as fast as they others and although she isnt the prettiest of shapes, she has grown a little and seems to be happy. 

i guess its a fact that people go for the cute little fishies for their little bowls/tanks and dont think of the fish that little guy will grow up into. seeing them crammed into shop tanks really doesnt encourage good fish ownership. no one thinks about the fact they arent in there long term, and usually they are hooked up to a huge filtration system which means the actual water in there is constantly changing so the toxins dont build up as much as in a smaller tank with normal weekly water changes.


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

:lol2: oh ye, nitrogen cycle, always fun...

when you get your new tank, put all the gravel etc over from you old one, and add dechlorniated water. use some warm water to raise the temperature if its too cold, just make sure you dose the dechlorinator before you add the water to the tank.

if you cannot afford a water test kit, you will need to be doing regular partial water changes. saying that they wont be in any worse condition than you are already keeping them so sticking to the same routine will be the same if not better than what they have now.

it will take around 6 weeks to cycle if you have no bacteria in your tank already. if you wash out the gravel etc in tap water when you change the water for example, you will need to start cycing from the start. if you have used dechlorinator every time, and the gravel has never touched tap water, chances are the gravel will be seeded and you will just have to make sure the old gravel goes on top of the new gravel so the bacteria dont die off. the bacteria will spread across the tank adn into the filter, and a decent colony will establish. you will still need to be doing weekly partial water changes. you will need a gravel vac. see if the shop will throw one in as a deal type thing with your tank buy. there is a sticky i think about cycling a tank, read through that, it may seem daunting, but its ok once you get your head around it : victory:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Well, we're moving in in 3 weeks.
I usually rinse the gravel with warm water, not much to be honest. 
I have a fake plant and a little ornament in there aswell. I dechlorinate the water every time I clean out the tank aswell. So when I'm cleaning the fish out from now on before the water moves in to the bigger tank, should I not rinse out the gravel? Will that help the cycling? Also, I would prefer to do cycling with no fish in the tank so will I still need to do partial water changes while cycling?
Water vac. I will make sure I get one, I'm going to read through the link you posted about it and have a read of the caresheet you made.
Thanks for helping me. I just fed them the sinking pellets, I gave them 3 each and they chased them while they were sinking.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm a bit confused.
I went on pets at home to find a Gravel Vac but they had Gravel Cleaners and Water Siphoners. I'm assuming I need the Gravel Cleaner, but what does a water siphoner do?


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

Gravel Cleaner by Interpet | Pets at Home

this is the one i use, i have the large, you will need the small.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks. You're a star!

Sorry to be stupid but, does a gravel cleaner just clean the gravel after you've taken the water out of the tank? Or does it take the water out of the tank?


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## cnella (Feb 24, 2010)

Gravel cleaners clean the poo and uneaten food and all the other rubbish out of your gravel as you siphon the water out when you do a water change. think you can get them which solely clean your gravel without removing your water too


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

these ones suck the water out of the tank into a bucket, you move the end around in the gravel and it sucks the food/poop out from the gravel and drops the gravel back down while still syphoning out the water and debris.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Wow! Now that's a clever thingy-ma-jig!
Do you just have to wave it around in the water to siphon it out?
So I do partial water changes once a week? How much water?
When do I do a full water change? Or have I got them mixed around...


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## cnella (Feb 24, 2010)

you need to suck the end to start the syphon (on the cheaper ones) just make sure you stop sucking before you get a mouth full of tank water and point the end over a bucket to catch the water. just lift the hoover end out of the water to stop the syphon. Goldie will give you better advise regarding cleaning regimes for goldfish however i dont see the need for a full water change, especially if your doing weekly partial water changes and cleaning your filter out (could be wrong though, not had goldfish for a very long time)


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

you dont need to do 100% water changes, 50% should be fine. 

swill your filter media out in old tank water to remove most of the debris from it.

in that gravel vac i linked to, the one i have, you shake it up and down in the water 3-4 times or so and the valve in the top stops the water dropping back out, it starts the syphon with no need for sucking.

just push it around in the gravel lifting it up and down to clean out all the debris trapped in there, you will see all the rubbish go up the tube into the bucket.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Great. half water change once a week, lovely. I'm all excited.
Do you think they'll like their lovely new tank?


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## _jake_ (Jul 3, 2008)

Lee2211 said:


> Great. half water change once a week, lovely. I'm all excited.
> Do you think they'll like their lovely new tank?


 Yes it will be much more roomy! :flrt:


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Any ideas on decor?
And is there any live plants that they will like? Ones that don't need to much looking after would be great.

When I do the fishless cycle, should I turn the filter on or wait untill the fish go in? Will I need to change the water in a fishless cycle?


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

Also, do you need sand to have some live plants in an aquariam or can you put them in gravel?
Thanks


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## goldie1212 (Mar 5, 2010)

you do realise that by rinsing out the gravel in warm water, no matter how much you used, the chlorine and shloramines in the water will have killed off all the good bacteria. 

your tank will not be cycled, so dont bother with the fishless cycle, just sort the new tank and move them in. your filter needs to be on 24/7. letting the new tank sit with water in it with or without the filter in there will do nothing, it needs an ammonia source, either fish, pure ammonia, or a rotting prawn etc to start cycling. 

if you do a fishless cycle (which i dont see the point in as your smaller tank isnt cycled either) you need to dose ammonia daily, or let it sit with rotting food/prawn in there with no water changes and let it do its thing. it can take 6-8 weeks. 

if you do a fish-in cycle, put the tank together, turn the filter on, obviously dechlorinate the water, add your fish and do regular partial water changes for the next 2 months. if you cannot afford a test kit, you will need to do water changes i would say twice a week to ensure the levels stay low. 

your fish will be in a better situation in the larger tank than they are now, as either way with you rinsing the gravel with tap water each time you clean them out, the bacteria will have all been killed so you would be at a constant start to a cycle. in a bigger tank the levels will take a little longer to build up and your fish will be far happier between partial water changes.

no more rinsing anything in tap water. dechlorinate all water you use for anything to do with the aquarium. use old tank water to clean out filter pads. use the gravel vac to remove debris from the gravel-no rinsing required.

good plants are hornwort-my fish dont eat this, its one of the few they dont, it grows well and fast in low light and uses up a lot of nutrients from the water so keeps the water quality up.

elodea, or pond weed, your goldies will love this, they will snack on it, but its also a fast grower. 

both those can be left floating in the tank or weighted down by 1 end under a small rock or in the gravel. 

dont get any decorations you fish may swim into, they can get stuck, and may damage their eyes trying to get out.


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## Lee2211 (Jan 28, 2010)

I did make sure I didn't buy anything that would hurt their eyes.

Hornwort and pond weed. I think I may get both, if they like it, why not?


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