# neutering pros and cons?????



## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

got my rottie booked in on monday to get neutered,he is 3 year old and a big boy,i`m worried that neutering will change his superb nature and make him put weight on?? any info would be appreciated
i know neutering stops pups(he never gets out without us) and testicular cancer but what other reasons are there?

thanks


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## kellysmith1976 (Jun 10, 2008)

I Had my staffy Neutered when he was 2yrs old, And i can honestly say its the best decision i ever made!..
He has put on weight, A dogs metabolism slows once they are neutered, So extra exercise or slight change in amount of food may be called for, I have another 2 dogs so i couldnt really alter feeding regime,
But I was like you so worried that it would change his personality, But if anything it has made him better, The bad points, Erm.. Hes put on weight, He is lazy.. Although i think this may be a staffy trait!!.. The good points, hes a lot more gentle, And more puppy like when he wants to play, He will still guard house, and he still barks and stuff when the door goes, 
Its strange to explain but i can tell hes happier, as he doesnt have to worry about things he is a lot more relaxed!... I would say YES am completely in favour of neutering!
Kelly


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## Mush (Jan 20, 2008)

oh if i had a dog again id get it nutured

the dog we had was intact and was a damn nightmare!!! he wouldnt calm down and used to get very erm aroused over just a sniff of a lady in the air


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## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

Mush said:


> oh if i had a dog again id get it nutured
> 
> the dog we had was intact and was a damn nightmare!!! he wouldnt calm down and used to get very erm aroused over just a sniff of a lady in the air


 
i have not had that problem with him so far lol. he doesn`t seem to care about.............well anything at all!! he gets a bit excited on seeing other dogs but nothing thats a problem,he acts like a puppy and plays with my pug very gently although my pug is not so gentle with the rott and the rott ends up yelping!!

more opinions greatly appreciated please!!


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

All my male dogs(bar one) are neutered and to be honest it doesnt change personality other than to reduce dominance and stop sexual tendencies. My young Rottie is off for castration shortly (hes 12 months old now). They only get fat if you feed to much so that is easy to sort


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

poshweiller said:


> got my rottie booked in on monday to get neutered,he is 3 year old and a big boy,i`m worried that neutering will change his superb nature and make him put weight on?? any info would be appreciated
> i know neutering stops pups(he never gets out without us) and testicular cancer but what other reasons are there?
> 
> thanks


 neutering doesn't change their character, why would it? It reduces testosterone related problems but if he hasn't got male hormonal aggression towards other male dogs, then you probably won't notice any difference per se.
It will alter the smell of his pee which won't be as strong smelling and that has to be a bonus.The garden and house is less likely to smell 'doggy'.It shouldn't make him put on weight either. Only eating too much and not getting enough exersize can do that.
I find it disappointing that people still believe these old wives tales and think it might be an excuse for some to not bother getting their dog neutered.


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

To be fair to people who do believe that animals can put weight on after neutering, vets even say this. When Libby was spayed we were told to cut her food portions right down as, and I quote "Neutering can cause weight gain, even in active animals, so cutting down the portion size will help to keep that under control."

As it is Libby is pretty much free fed and has no weight issues, but you can understand people thinking that is the case (weight gain + neutering) when vets say that too.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> To be fair to people who do believe that animals can put weight on after neutering, vets even say this. When Libby was spayed we were told to cut her food portions right down as, and I quote "Neutering can cause weight gain, even in active animals, so cutting down the portion size will help to keep that under control."
> 
> As it is Libby is pretty much free fed and has no weight issues, but you can understand people thinking that is the case (weight gain + neutering) when vets say that too.



Where did you get the quote? I have never heard any vet say such a thing but I accept that some might say it if they too believe the myth. Weight gain is, and can only ever happen, as a result of calories in, exeeding calories used. That goes for every living creature, humans included.
Vets aren't gods after all and some of them may be incorrect occasionally


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## Esarosa (Jul 13, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Where did you get the quote? I have never heard any vet say such a thing but I accept that some might say it if they too believe the myth. Weight gain is, and can only ever happen, as a result of calories in, exeeding calories used. That goes for every living creature, humans included.
> Vets aren't gods after all and some of them may be incorrect occasionally



Our vets where the ones that said it to me. When we went for her check up after her spay I asked a different vet. As I thought it was an urban myth and he told me the same thing. Then again they also said she would be groggy and sleepy for a few days and that certainly wasn't the case. One of the nurses also said after neutering activity levels drop...again not the case with madam!


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> Where did you get the quote? I have never heard any vet say such a thing but I accept that some might say it if they too believe the myth. Weight gain is, and can only ever happen, as a result of calories in, exeeding calories used. That goes for every living creature, humans included.
> Vets aren't gods after all and some of them may be incorrect occasionally


amen to that! :2thumb:


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## GeckoLass (Nov 15, 2007)

If i could turn back time i would of had our boy Jasper(english setter) neutered earlier. He was left intact as we were going to use him at stud but we never found any females with owners wanting to breed. He was diagnosed with testicular cancer last year at 8 year old, Luckily it had not spread and he is fine now (touch wood). But I still feel majorly guilty for not getting him done sooner.:bash: 
It has not changed him one bit he still acts like a 6 month old getting up to mischeif and thinking he can run about like a mado without getting stiff the next day silly sod. :flrt:


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## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

thanks for everyones input,i think my main worry is the fact he is big so needs more drugs to put him to sleep which is always a concern with any animal as to wether they come out of it or not,i lost my cat last year to a severe reaction to the drug used to put them to sleep(know the word but cannot spell it lol) so this makes me anxious as my rott is a big boy(not overweight) but long legged with a very large "male" head.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

Our EX vet was all for spaying bitches BUT if you wanted a dog castrating you had to book an appointment for counselling WTF. He used to say they turn into cabbages, have no personality, become moronic bloaters.........
He really thought he was God Im sure. Is it any wonder why hes our EX Vet:whistling2:


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## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> Our EX vet was all for spaying bitches BUT if you wanted a dog castrating you had to book an appointment for counselling WTF. He used to say they turn into cabbages, have no personality, become moronic bloaters.........
> He really thought he was God Im sure. Is it any wonder why hes our EX Vet:whistling2:


 
oh well it shouldn`t change my guy then he`s as cabbaged as they come big head ..small brain!! :lol2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

poshweiller said:


> oh well it shouldn`t change my guy then he`s as cabbaged as they come big head ..small brain!! :lol2:


 
Youve just described my Rottie exactly:lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Katiexx said:


> Our vets where the ones that said it to me. When we went for her check up after her spay I asked a different vet. As I thought it was an urban myth and he told me the same thing. Then again they also said she would be groggy and sleepy for a few days and that certainly wasn't the case. One of the nurses also said after neutering activity levels drop...again not the case with madam!


 how very peculiar that they all gave you so much misinformation. As you say, it doesn't necessarily make them groggy afterwards. I expect it depends on the breed, how much anaesthetic they had and what type of the stuff. In fact, I am always more concerned about stitches being burst once I get home and the animal leaping about as per usual.
Heck, if yours are like mine, groggy and sleepy would be a flipping bonus!!:lol2:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

poshweiller said:


> thanks for everyones input,i think my main worry is the fact he is big so needs more drugs to put him to sleep which is always a concern with any animal as to wether they come out of it or not,i lost my cat last year to a severe reaction to the drug used to put them to sleep(know the word but cannot spell it lol) so this makes me anxious as my rott is a big boy(not overweight) but long legged with a very large "male" head.


well if it helps put your mind at rest, look at my avatar. That is my Ursa, a massive 65kg rottie X newfie.
Got his bowlacks whipped orf last year and was absolutely fine. In fact it saved his life. Cos if he'd spent any more time howling night and day, scrabbling and gnawing at my 150 year old doors, shoving his massive bonce through(and breaking) several cat flaps because he was convinced that if the cats got in that way, he should be able to aswell, to get to one of the lhasa apsos who were in season and in the main house away from him, then I'd have cut his throat and turned him into a hearthrug! :bash:
I mean WTF did he think he'd be able to do with a lhasa bitch in any case the flipping bonghead?


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## bgfaith (Oct 7, 2008)

I think it does put weight on. We have had 4 bitches spayed and 5 that arent and the spayed ones all put on weight. We dont believe in doing it unless the animals like is at risk like our bitches were as they all got pyametria (sp?) Found it has made our dogs more lazy though


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

So you left it untill your bitches got Pyometra then bgfaith?
Ever thought of neutering them before they went through that? Especially since they can die of it, thats quite a risk to take with animals you love.

As for putting on weight, you need to feed your dog the right amount of food along with the right exercise. I have never known a dog just to get fat through neutering, its usually been down to diet and exercise also.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I have a mixture of 11 dogs and bitches all are neutered except the Rottie pup. None of mine are fat as I feed what they need to maintain their correct weight. I would never risk my bitches health by not spaying them and unless they are for breeding I cant see the reason not to spay. Pyo`s can kill


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## bgfaith (Oct 7, 2008)

marthaMoo said:


> So you left it untill your bitches got Pyometra then bgfaith?
> Ever thought of neutering them before they went through that? Especially since they can die of it, thats quite a risk to take with animals you love.
> 
> As for putting on weight, you need to feed your dog the right amount of food along with the right exercise. I have never known a dog just to get fat through neutering, its usually been down to diet and exercise also.


First of all if you knew anything about my dogs they are breeding and showing dogs. You cant show breeding dogs that have been spayed or neutered without a medical condition. Yes i do know they can die from it as one of my bitches nearly did but we didnt realise that is what she had we thought it was the discharge from being pregnant as she was mated not long ago before she had. So your telling me that it is impossible for us to have 10 dogs all fed the same amount everyday and 3 who just happened to be spayed put on weight im sorry but i dont find that a coincidence. So dont pass judgement on how i look after my dogs as you know nothing about them or me. And i dont need someone like you telling me how to look after them.

Lets look at this a different way then shall we should all Nuns, priests and monks or people who choose not to have children have something similar to cut down the risk of the developing cancer and other illnesses. No so why should it be different to animals. Only time i think it is acceptable is when its for animals like baboons and similar animals that if they dont mate it cause severe discomfort.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

Neutering boys before they are full developed worries me a bit, but at 3 years old I don't see a problem. I deal with each dog I have on an individual basis and neuter if I feel there's a need. The boys I have now are both entire though. 
I haven't had weight problems with any of the boys I have neutered - good feeding and exercise regime keeps everything the right shape.
I don't think for one minute their personality is affected - other than to help remove behaviour (sexual aggression, humping everything etc) that is driven by testosterone.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

bgfaith said:


> You cant show breeding dogs that have been spayed or neutered without a medical condition. .


So have the KC changed their rules then? You certainly used to be able to show a spayed bitch as long as she had had a litter registered with them?


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

bgfaith said:


> I think it does put weight on. We have had 4 bitches spayed and 5 that arent and the spayed ones all put on weight. We dont believe in doing it unless the animals like is at risk like our bitches were as they all got pyametria (sp?) Found it has made our dogs more lazy though


 Well scientific data shows that owners feeding too much food and not excersizing enough is what really puts the weight on. In more than 30 years keeping dogs and having both dogs and bitches neutered, I can say definatively, that neutering doesn't make dogs fat. Owners make their dogs fat. Most of mine are neutered and believe me, not one of my dogs is fat. 
If women have a hysterectomy, do they get fat simply because they can no longer reproduce?


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

fenwoman said:


> Well scientific data shows that owners feeding too much food and not excersizing enough is what really puts the weight on. In more than 30 years keeping dogs and having both dogs and bitches neutered, I can say definatively, that neutering doesn't make dogs fat. Owners make their dogs fat. Most of mine are neutered and believe me, not one of my dogs is fat.
> *If women have a hysterectomy, do they get fat simply because they can no longer reproduce?[/*quote]
> 
> Nope its coz they eat to much:whistling2:
> ...


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

bgfaith said:


> First of all if you knew anything about my dogs they are breeding and showing dogs. You cant show breeding dogs that have been spayed or neutered without a medical condition..



Yes you can - the rules changed about 10 years ago - lots of spayed bitches who have never had a litter or repro system related illness doing very well in the ring - less so in neutered males but they may still be shown and some judges will follow the rules and place over inferior dogs 

Any neutered dog may be shown - you just fill in a form on KC website and they post you a letter giving permission to show


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I knew that back in the 70's you could show a bitch if she had a litter registered, cos I showed my Afghan Hound.

And she never put an ounce on when she was neutered.


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## bgfaith (Oct 7, 2008)

So how can you explain then 4 dogs who were always healthy never overweight had the correct amount of exercise. When spayed got bigger with no differences? You cant say its feeding cause it isnt they have always had the same portions of food through their entire life.


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## Fixx (May 6, 2006)

bgfaith said:


> So how can you explain then 4 dogs who were always healthy never overweight had the correct amount of exercise. When spayed got bigger with no differences? You cant say its feeding cause it isnt they have always had the same portions of food through their entire life.


Because neutering can affect the metabolism, slowing it down thus the same amount of food goes further.


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

Fixx said:


> Because neutering can affect the metabolism, slowing it down thus the same amount of food goes further.


 
Spot on ray 

took me ages to get the amount to feed my springer right who is spayed..........she was hoooge but i had to keep cuttin her food down till i had her at a happy weight 

So yes over feeding them when they have been spayed does make a big difference and as ray said it changes the metabolism so throws the whole how much they could eat out


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

Evie said:


> Neutering boys before they are full developed worries me a bit, but at 3 years old I don't see a problem. I deal with each dog I have on an individual basis and neuter if I feel there's a need. The boys I have now are both entire though.
> I haven't had weight problems with any of the boys I have neutered - good feeding and exercise regime keeps everything the right shape.
> I don't think for one minute their personality is affected - other than to help remove behaviour (sexual aggression, humping everything etc) that is driven by testosterone.


 
Keano is a prime example. He left us at 8 weeks old. They left with all the correct advice, they'd booked him at 1 week old and we had gone through everything.
However on their Vets advice, they had him Neutered at 7 months old!!!!

As a result he went 'Castrata' and he's now 33inches at the shoulder, deep narrow chested, elongated legs, long rangey body. He's Like an Irish Wolfhound in size and build but looks like a wolf. He towers above his mum and dad and all his siblings. He is huge and oversized but narrow built, deep chested which now makes a huge bloat risk and is fed from raised bowls. If he had been left to mature into his body and develop properly, he would have developed at a more natural weight and build. Northern Inuit dogs are a slower maturing breed, which was explained in detail to the new owners, who said they understood. But they took the advice of their vet.
At 4 years old he came back to us. They had never told us they were going through IVf and when she finally became pregnant they were highly paranoid about anything happening to their child. Apparently he gave the baby salmonella (yer right! :bash: ) but if you expect a dog to prepare raw chicken then change a babies nappy, when he lacks the apposable thumbs needed to be able to use taps and soap and full wash his hands inbetween, what did they expect.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

I agree that neutering a dog too young is not usually a good idea, for several reasons. The same applies to bitches. I would say that three is a good age to neuter if you're going to. 

Neutering does, as has been said, affect weight. It makes a dog more likely to develop hypothyroidism for a start. However, as has also been said, less food and more exercise will usually help. 

One thing that really gets my goat, so to speak, is the fact that people seem to think that if somene is not breeding, and hasn't neutered their dog or bitch, they are being irresponsible or negligent in some way. Of course, some people are, but has it occurred to anyone that some people might have sensibly thought it through and decided it isn't for the best? Pyo is nowhere near as common or life threatening if caught early, as people think (if I had had 4 cases of it, would be looking into my management of my dogs, and probably into no longer breeding from that bloodline!) and testicular cancer in dogs will affect less than 1%. Anaesthetics are always a risk. 

Also, a lot of the problems people think will be cured by neutering, (and they sometime are) are often behavioual problems. Things like scent marking, humping, running off etc.


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## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

thanks for everones input its much appreciated.i will take him monday and wait at home holding my breath until he`s back lol

oh and a bit of a difference but i got my hyper/scatty/stressed british shorthair cat dressed and what a difference she is so much calmer and a much nicer cat all round,best thing i did concerning her,the only thing is she now steals things and hides them???so not against spaying just bit worried about my big goofy boy!!


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

poshweiller said:


> oh and a bit of a difference but i got my hyper/scatty/stressed british shorthair cat dressed and what a difference she is so much calmer and a much nicer cat all round,best thing i did concerning her,the only thing is she now steals things and hides them???so not against spaying just bit worried about my big goofy boy!!


There's quite a bit of difference between neutering cats and dogs though.

Cats have a much higher sexual drive than dogs and it's the physical act of mating that makes a queen ovulate, so if a female isn't mated, then she doesn't ovulate and so she will come back into season again and again and again. Most females will have a period when they will stop having seasons, a lot of moggies don't have seasons over the winter, my pedigree Somalis "self-neutered" from about mid-May until September, it just depends, but then the whole cycle will start again!

This is why there is a high pyometra risk to un-neutered and unbred queens, because the womb is preparing for a pregnancy and if no pregnancy occurs the womb lining keeps on thickening with every season. This can cause cysts and the fluids that the cysts create are an ideal breeding ground for bacteria. 

A bitch on the other hand ovulates and comes into season, if she isn't mated then she doesn't come back into season until her next normal cycle, which is usually 6 months but does vary - however, it certainly won't be 2 weeks or less like a queen!


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

The thing is though imagine if you reach sexual maturity but arent allowed to mate. 

In my opinion if you arent breeding your dog it doesnt need to reach sexual maturity and be left entire.

I am a firm beliver in neutering, my Staffie x was neutered at 4 months old, he bounced back within a couple of hours. 

There are quite a few vets in this country who are now thinking like those is the USA and are neutering puppies from 12 weeks old. If that helps with the huge amount of unwanted dogs in this country then I'm all for it. There are a couple of big well known rescues who I know also have the same feelings and neuter pups before they are rehomed.

There is always going to be reasons as to why people dont want to neuter, but there are always going to be more reasons to neuter.

If I had a £1 for everytime someone told me there dog had an accidental mating and as expecting pups I would be a very rich woman. But yet these are probably the same people who would also tell me they dont want to neuter there dog as they are responsable and there dog would never get out to be mated or be able to mate.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> The thing is though imagine if you reach sexual maturity but arent allowed to mate.
> 
> In my opinion if you arent breeding your dog it doesnt need to reach sexual maturity and be left entire.
> 
> ...


 
Irresponsible ownership causes 'accidental' pregnancies, not the fact the animal isn't neutered. 

IMO neutering at 4 months old is absolutely appalling. Most UK vets don't agree with it. Were you aware of the potential negatives before having this done?


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Have to agree, IMO i think 4 months is far too young. The body is still developing and growing. I think, breed dependent, that dogs should be 'done' at 12 months. A bit later for the larger breeds as they take longer to grow and reach full maturity.

Any dog or cat of mine would always be neutered ... i think cats as early as 5 months as they come into season at 6 months but thats a different debate

My personal opinion is anyone who owns a dog must have a licence to keep it and neutering there animals should be mandatory.

I have mixed views on breeders/ shower's and a low opinion of the KC at the moment but if everyone stopped breeding there dogs for a few years across the country and anyone wanting a dog went to a rehoming society we would be in a much better position than we are now : victory:


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> if everyone stopped breeding there dogs for a few years across the country and anyone wanting a dog went to a rehoming society we would be in a much better position than we are now : victory:


 we would? So if someone with children decided to get a cavalier puppy or bichon, or cairn etc puppy to be sure it grew up with their cgildren and had no 'issues' regarding aggression, etc, and they wanted the fun of going to training classes with the children etc. You would be able to point them towards a rescue kennels which had the sort of puppy they wanted?
In theory it would be great if nobody bred anything and people who wanted a dog had the choice of getting an adult dog from rescue, coping with any issues it might have, or doing without. But I for one think that it just isn't feasible to say that everyone should get a rescue dog instead of buying a puppy from a breeder.


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## ownedbyroxy (Jan 27, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> we would? So if someone with children decided to get a cavalier puppy or bichon, or cairn etc puppy to be sure it grew up with their cgildren and had no 'issues' regarding aggression, etc, and they wanted the fun of going to training classes with the children etc. You would be able to point them towards a rescue kennels which had the sort of puppy they wanted?
> In theory it would be great if nobody bred anything and people who wanted a dog had the choice of getting an adult dog from rescue, coping with any issues it might have, or doing without. But I for one think that it just isn't feasible to say that everyone should get a rescue dog instead of buying a puppy from a breeder.


agreed!!!!
plus where would people like me be?? as many rescues won't accept me as 'suitable' as i have a young child and am planning baby no2. So i wouldn't be able to have a dog if this was the case. or at least i'd possibly struggle. Also a lot of rescue dogs history can be blurry - many many people would be wary of rehoming a dog who possibly was aggressive etc when they have young children. I for one would not. i have rescued 2 dogs in the past (sadly not with us no more), and would again, but not a dog who's past cannot always be looked into, not when i have a young family. 
There's also the arguement of free choice - why should i have an older dog? When i want to bring the dog up in my way, ie crate train / train for agility etc, it's so much easier to train a young dog to accept this rather than an older 1. 
It's all a matter of personal choice.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

I too love rescue dogs and where possible people should adopt one BUT it isnt always the best thing. A lot of rescue dogs come with a lot of baggage and if you have small children you shouldnt risk them with an unknown adult dog. Some people only have room for a small dog or they want their children to know the joys af a puppy and a lot of rescues wont even rehome to people with small children, what are they supposed to do then?? Good caring breeders have a place in society of both large and small dogs. I needed 2 large dogs as security for my house but they needed to be people/cat friendly hence I bought a GSD and a Rottie as pups both from good breeders. They live in the house with us and are very friendly but sleep downstairs and have access to the garden via a dog flap 24/7, a deterrant more than anything. Adults just wouldnt have fitted in.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Antw23uk said:


> .... if everyone stopped breeding there dogs for a few years across the country and anyone wanting a dog went to a rehoming society we would be in a much better position than we are now : victory:


I also think there should be no war or hate in the world but thats not going to happen either, lol


The arguement that most frustrates me is "yes but i have found homes for all my puppies"
My answer is usually .... Well done YOU ... I'm so glad YOU have found homes for YOUR puppies. Im so glad YOUR puppies which you breed because ***insert excuse here*** are in good homes when so many other puppies are either brought in or born in rescue centres ... Well done YOU.

I dont know if anyone else has had that kind of conversation before? I mainly get it through the cat charity i work with (im a fosterer) :bash:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, but responsible breeders shouldn't be penalised or blamed for irresponsible ones, surely?

If someone has a litter of pups and finds homes for them all, what's wrong with that?

It's the irresponsible nerds that don't look after their dogs properly and don't give a toss where they end up or whether they've gone to good homes that cause all the dogs in rescues.

Same with cats - most bone fide breeders will take a cat back into their home or be instrumental in finding homes for them. The ones that don't are the irresponsible nerds!!


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

Thats all well and good for the responsible breeders/ owners, no one is penalizing or blaming them but this isnt an ideal world and there are people who are 'nerds' also irresponsible and some are just ignorant and havent got a clue.
Regardless of wether your a responsible breeder and find good homes for all your animals and take them back if it doesnt work out you are still adding to the issue of bringing more animals into this world than there are homes for them!

*This is not a personal attack btw*

This isnt just about breeders, this is about every joe blogs who breeds there animal by accident or on purpose adding to an animal/ homes ratio which is totally out balanced.

And there is nothing wrong with someone who find good homes if they have a litter ... you missed my point totally. Eg. 6 of my puppies i found good homes for = 6 good homes ...... 6 puppies in a rescue centre - 6 good homes who could of had them because they had my puppies which i didnt/ shouldnt have breed.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Pros:
No unwanted litters
Highly reduced risk of searching for mating partners
No unwanted mating behaviour (aka humping everthing in sight)
Generally calmer behaviour
Removes risk of uterine cancer and ovarian cysts in females/testicular cancer in males
No more attracting other dogs for mating


Cons:
Anesthetic risk
Dogs are likely to feel sorry for themselves afterwards.
Bitches are prone to problems with stitches (however they very rarely cause any real problems, stitches should be inspected 1-3 times daily during the healing process)


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Antw23uk said:


> Thats all well and good for the responsible breeders/ owners, no one is penalizing or blaming them but this isnt an ideal world and there are people who are 'nerds' also irresponsible and some are just ignorant and havent got a clue.
> Regardless of wether your a responsible breeder and find good homes for all your animals and take them back if it doesnt work out you are still adding to the issue of bringing more animals into this world than there are homes for them!
> 
> *This is not a personal attack btw*
> ...


I can see what you're saying, but who's to say those six people would have wanted tho e6 pups from the resce centre? In any case, it is no puppies in rescue centres that have problems finding homes. 

Also, you need to look at the bigger picture. A lot of 'proper' breeders are breeding for their love of the breed, hoping to improve it, and t have another puppy to show. The pups that are sold are 'surplus' to that, and will usually go to other show homes or pet homes. If these people didn't breed, what would happen to their beloved breeds? Also, these same people are also likely to breed only every few years, or less anyway. 

I personally originally chose a pedigree puppy over a rescue because I wanted a known quantity. I wanted to know how big my puppy would grow, what sort of coat it would have and what sort of character traits it would be likely to have. I now have three pedigree dogs and show and breed, and we are also looking for a rescue dog, which will probably be chosen on it's likelihood to not find another home. But a rescue isn't suitable for everyone.


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

The 'correct' advice to give someone wh wants a puppy is:

- see the parents - make sure they have a good temperament
- make sure the parents have been health screened
- make sure they have been reared in a house and properly socialised
- buying a puppy without doing all this is a risky business.
- pick a breed that suits your lifestlye and personalty
etc etc.
Go to a bad breeder/puppy farm/pet shop and risk bad temperament, ill health, wrong breed, wrong size etc.etc.
All of the latter could also apply to a rescue - it is conflicing information. Rescue dogs should not be undertaken by those who are not prepared for, or experienced enough to manage all kinds of potential problems.

Not neutering does not automaticaly mean puppies. My boys are entire and have never sired puppies and aren't ever going to.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

LoveForLizards said:


> Pros:
> No unwanted litters
> Highly reduced risk of searching for mating partners
> No unwanted mating behaviour (aka humping everthing in sight)
> ...


See, this is where my problem lies. Some of the 'pros' aren't pros IMO. (humping is a behavioural poblem and not always prevented or stopped by neutering) Training and proper management prevents 'searching for mating partners'. 

On top of that, here are far more cons than you have listed, especially if neutering early. 

- increases the risk of some bone cancers
- can exacerbate joint problems/hip displaycia
- increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
- can cause urinary incontinence in up to 20% of bitches
- triples the risk of hypothyroidism
- increases the risk of UTI's. 
- increases the risk of recessed vulva and vaginitis in bitches
- possibly increases the risk of adverse vaccine reactions. 
- if done early can mean the dog never matures mentally and remains 'puppy like'

I think there are more reasons to spay a bitch than neuter a dog personally. I am not against neutering at all, I just think people should make a fully informed decision and each case should be looked at individually.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

midori said:


> I can see what you're saying, but who's to say those six people would have wanted tho e6 pups from the resce centre? In any case, it is no puppies in rescue centres that have problems finding homes.


that's exactly what I thought when I read that post.


midori said:


> I personally originally chose a pedigree puppy over a rescue because I wanted a known quantity. I wanted to know how big my puppy would grow, what sort of coat it would have and what sort of character traits it would be likely to have. I now have three pedigree dogs and show and breed, and we are also looking for a rescue dog, which will probably be chosen on it's likelihood to not find another home. But a rescue isn't suitable for everyone.


That's exactly how I feel when I buy a dog or a cat. I want to know what I'm getting, I want to have a good idea of what the temperament and personality is going to be like and I want to know what it will look like as an adult. Consquently I have always bought pedigrees.

And before anyone jumps in, I have nothing against the humble mongrel or moggie, it's my personal choice.

That isn't to say that I wouldn't take on a rescue, but having always had other animals, I've always found it easier to introduce a puppy/kitten into our home.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> I also think there should be no war or hate in the world but thats not going to happen either, lol
> 
> 
> The arguement that most frustrates me is "yes but i have found homes for all my puppies"
> ...


 You've lost me. So if I find outstanding homes for my own puppies, how is that a bad thing? How will my litter have any effect on the adult rotties, staffies, rottie and staffy crosses, jack russells etc in rescue kennels?
Do you think that if I didn't have my pups, the people who are specifically looking for one of my well bred, carefully reared, small dogs, would go to a rescue kennel and get themselves an adult dog which is large and comes with 'issues' because I'll tell you they won't and to think otherwise is simply pie in the sky.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Antw23uk said:


> Thats all well and good for the responsible breeders/ owners, no one is penalizing or blaming them but this isnt an ideal world and there are people who are 'nerds' also irresponsible and some are just ignorant and havent got a clue.
> Regardless of wether your a responsible breeder and find good homes for all your animals and take them back if it doesnt work out you are still adding to the issue of bringing more animals into this world than there are homes for them!
> 
> *This is not a personal attack btw*
> ...


 I have to ask. If I breed 6 puppies and make the new owners sign a binding contract stating that the dog must be brought back to me if they can't keep it. How have I added to the issue of dogs in rescue?
and if I find ouitstanding homes for each of my puppies, how has that taken anything away from the dogs in rescue? It seems like there are some rather woolly minded people out there who really believe that if a person wants a puppy of a certain breed or type, something specific, that they would happily go to a kennels and get whatever there was there and be happy with it. 
It wouldn't happen.
When I got my Ursa, had I not found someone who had crossed the 2 breeds, I would have gone and bought a Rottie pup. If I hadn't been allowed that option and had to get a rottie from rescue, I'd simply not have got a rottie or any other large breed at all so rescue dogs would be no better off. There is no way on gods earth I would risk my little dogs and my cats, poultry and livestock, with a massive fully grown adult rottie of unknown temperament. No way.
Get real please. It's about choice. People want a certain type of puppy. That's what they want and if they want it, why should they not have it. Why do animal rights fanatics insist that they should take something they don't want, just because there are too many unwanted dogs about.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

fenwoman said:


> Get real please. It's about choice. People want a certain type of puppy. That's what they want and if they want it, why should they not have it. Why do animal rights fanatics insist that they should take something they don't want, just because there are too many unwanted dogs about.


Get real? No one ever said it wasnt about choice but perhaps our society is so used to having choice that we have become a culture that can flippantly 'throw' away something that doesnt suit us?

I think some on here are deluded with what kind of dogs actually go through rescue centres as well and its not just about your typical Dogs Trust its also about the pedigree rescue places up and down the country. 

Anyway going off track. Get your dogs 'done', i think the pros overwelmingly out way the cons on this one.

Nothing more frustrating than a dogs nose up your bitches arss as you walk round the park because she is in season and nothing worse than your dog p*ssing off across a field because he got the scent of a bitch in heat .... and that goes for the best behaved dogs as well.
Many years ago we had a GSD who we worked in obedience/ agility and fly ball and before he had the snip i always remeber the look on his face when he picked up the scent over the park. He so desperatley wanted to follow it but his well trained part of his brain wouldnt and his poor little face was in showing turmoil and the whining and pacing up and down ..... Plus having a bitch in season means you can't go to obedience or agility classes or shows .... not fun :lol2:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

Antw23uk said:


> Nothing more frustrating than a dogs nose up your bitches arss as you walk round the park because she is in season and nothing worse than your dog p*ssing off across a field because he got the scent of a bitch in heat .... and that goes for the best behaved dogs as well.
> Many years ago we had a GSD who we worked in obedience/ agility and fly ball and before he had the snip i always remeber the look on his face when he picked up the scent over the park. He so desperatley wanted to follow it but his well trained part of his brain wouldnt and his poor little face was in showing turmoil and the whining and pacing up and down ..... Plus having a bitch in season means you can't go to obedience or agility classes or shows .... not fun :lol2:


Well if someone is idiotic enough to walk their in season bitch in the park, they do not even deserve to own a dog at all! As for dogs just 'p*sing off', that is about training. Most of the dogs/bitches I know are entire, and the owners have no such problems. Why? Proper management. 

As for not being able to go to obedience/agility or shows because a bitch is in season, that is suggesting we should neuter for our own convenience, which I absolutely do not agree with. 

Plus, the example you have given is of a neutered do being in turmoil, so it didn't do him any good, did it?! 

And I am fully aware of the sort of dogs in rescue, I work within breed rescue, as I said before. And as has ben said, although it would be naive to thnk resposnible breeders cn never contribute, on the whole, they do not.


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## Antw23uk (Jan 12, 2009)

I give up, i seem to have turned into the bad guy here. Breed your dogs, let the population get so bad we end up like the States and keep telling yourself your a responsible dog owner. :notworthy:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Antw23uk said:


> Nothing more frustrating than a dogs nose up your bitches arss as you walk round the park because she is in season and nothing worse than your dog p*ssing off across a field because he got the scent of a bitch in heat .... and that goes for the best behaved dogs as well.
> Many years ago we had a GSD who we worked in obedience/ agility and fly ball and before he had the snip i always remeber the look on his face when he picked up the scent over the park. He so desperatley wanted to follow it but his well trained part of his brain wouldnt and his poor little face was in showing turmoil and the whining and pacing up and down ..... Plus having a bitch in season means you can't go to obedience or agility classes or shows .... not fun :lol2:


Well in my lifetime I've owned 4 dogs, 2 Afghans and 2 GSDs. None of them were neutered and I've never, ever had that problem with any of them. 

But I have to agree with Midori that it's not a sensible thing to do to take a dog in season in a public park.



Antw23uk said:


> I give up, i seem to have turned into the bad guy here. Breed your dogs, let the population get so bad we end up like the States and keep telling yourself your a responsible dog owner. :notworthy:


And no-one says you've turned the bad guy, but you make statement based on personal experience and you're going to get statements from other people based on their personal experience and we're all different.

Forums are debating areas, where everyone is entitled to express their own personal opinions.


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## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

:gasp: :whistling2:


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

poshweiller said:


> :gasp: :whistling2:


 
See what you started:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Shell195 said:


> See what you started:lol2::lol2::lol2:


:lolsign:

I didnt post all the cons, but I also didnt post all the pros.


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## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

Shell195 said:


> See what you started:lol2::lol2::lol2:


 
yep and i`m staying well and truley out of it!! do you know i`ve actually said to my hubby in the past i`m going to start a thread about such and such and see what arguements start,not that i ask questions to start arguements but i seem to cause them no matter what i ask :Na_Na_Na_Na:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

poshweiller said:


> yep and i`m staying well and truley out of it!! do you know i`ve actually said to my hubby in the past i`m going to start a thread about such and such and see what arguements start,not that i ask questions to start arguements but i seem to cause them no matter what i ask :Na_Na_Na_Na:


I didn't think it was an arguement? people with different opinions having a debate politely?


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## pippainnit (Feb 20, 2009)

I haven't read through all of the thread but thought I would add my bit. I had my Springer x Border Collie neutered when he was two and it was the worst pet-related thing I have ever done. During the operation he had a massive seizure and has had epilepsy ever since. He averages around ten fits a month and has to have barbiturates twice a day in order to control them. As a result of the medication (which makes him incredibly lethargic) he put on over two stone in weight and as such is now on prescription diet food for the rest of his life. We had to weigh up the pros and cons of not having him put down as one thing we certainly didn't want was for him to suffer in any way, but after a lot of trial and error regarding medication dosages, we have managed to control the severity of the fits and how regularly they come about.
Every vet we have since spoken to acknowledges the - admittedly rare - correlation between castration and the possibility of epilepsy as a side effect. 
Don't get me wrong, I know this is a very rare, very unfortunate case and I am sure 99% of the time nothing like this happens at all, but having seen my beautiful dog be so affected from a decision that solely I made - and didn't have to make - then I can't help but have guilt and regret over it.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

castrating a dog does cause weight gain. It isn't a myth. Hormones have an intimate affect on the metabolism and taking away all the testosterone can cause weight gain. FACT. It happens accross species, including humans when they used to castrate slaves - major moob development!


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## stephenie191 (May 29, 2007)

I work at a dog Creche and the only advice i would give is 


CHOP THEY'RE BALLS OFF AS SOON AS YOU CAN!

We have Male dogs come in that havn't been done and they're horrible with other male dogs.

Always trying to get on the bitch's , of course this is in a differn't environment than the normal home one 

but it DOES make them more loving, 


They have less to think about, like other bitchs so pay more attention to the owner when walking etc


It DOESN'T change there personality


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## bgfaith (Oct 7, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I have to ask. If I breed 6 puppies and make the new owners sign a binding contract stating that the dog must be brought back to me if they can't keep it. How have I added to the issue of dogs in rescue?
> and if I find ouitstanding homes for each of my puppies, how has that taken anything away from the dogs in rescue? It seems like there are some rather woolly minded people out there who really believe that if a person wants a puppy of a certain breed or type, something specific, that they would happily go to a kennels and get whatever there was there and be happy with it.
> It wouldn't happen.
> When I got my Ursa, had I not found someone who had crossed the 2 breeds, I would have gone and bought a Rottie pup. If I hadn't been allowed that option and had to get a rottie from rescue, I'd simply not have got a rottie or any other large breed at all so rescue dogs would be no better off. There is no way on gods earth I would risk my little dogs and my cats, poultry and livestock, with a massive fully grown adult rottie of unknown temperament. No way.
> Get real please. It's about choice. People want a certain type of puppy. That's what they want and if they want it, why should they not have it. Why do animal rights fanatics insist that they should take something they don't want, just because there are too many unwanted dogs about.


Thats what we did with 3 of our dogs that we sold. One was born with pancreatic problems which we bought back off the lady as she was going to have her put down. then a women who had two of our dogs from different litters sold one on us with telling us so we bought the other one back off her as she was going to let it go in the street and rehomed a male who was too energetic for the family. As we see it we brought those dogs up and into the world they should be pulled around pillar to post and for all we know be treated horribly. No matter how old our dogs are we will always take them back. Even if they go on holidays we will have the dogs for them as we dont want our dogs locked up in kennels.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

missk said:


> castrating a dog does cause weight gain. It isn't a myth. Hormones have an intimate affect on the metabolism and taking away all the testosterone can cause weight gain. FACT. It happens accross species, including humans when they used to castrate slaves - major moob development!


Have you read the whole thread?

The point most people were making is that neutering _can_ make a dog gain weight, but to prevent that happening to reduce their food intake and make sure they get plenty of exercise - I don't think those who were advocating no weight gain were saying it was a myth, more that the weight gain is because once the animal is neutered the owners carry on giving them the same quantity of food which they can't burn off at the rate they did when they were 'hormonal'.


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## Shell195 (May 31, 2007)

:2thumb: Got it in one


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## Evie (Jan 28, 2008)

stephenie191 said:


> We have Male dogs come in that havn't been done and they're horrible with other male dogs.
> 
> but it DOES make them more loving,
> 
> It DOESN'T change there personality


Bit of a contradiction there :whistling2:


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

Does anyone advice a good age to get a dog neutered? I know there is conflicting advice from breeders/owners/vets, and although i have been advised to get my GSD 'done', i would like to wait a little while till i know he is definitely fully developed. He is around 11 months now and i keep putting it off cos A) i am unsure about the best age and the definite pros vs cons, and B) i am really nervous about him going under anesthetic!!! 
Our collie was already neutered when we had him at approx a yr old, as he was from a rescue centre. So were not really sure if it has changed anything with him!


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

fraggle said:


> Does anyone advice a good age to get a dog neutered? I know there is conflicting advice from breeders/owners/vets, and although i have been advised to get my GSD 'done', i would like to wait a little while till i know he is definitely fully developed. He is around 11 months now and i keep putting it off cos A) i am unsure about the best age and the definite pros vs cons, and B) i am really nervous about him going under anesthetic!!!
> Our collie was already neutered when we had him at approx a yr old, as he was from a rescue centre. So were not really sure if it has changed anything with him!



I think you are probably best of having a chat with your vet and asking questions about modern anaesthetics. Everyone on here will probably have a different opinion which will confuse you even more.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

feorag said:


> Have you read the whole thread?
> 
> 
> The point most people were making is that neutering _can_ make a dog gain weight, but to prevent that happening to reduce their food intake and make sure they get plenty of exercise - I don't think those who were advocating no weight gain were saying it was a myth, more that the weight gain is because once the animal is neutered the owners carry on giving them the same quantity of food which they can't burn off at the rate they did when they were 'hormonal'.


Ugh why bother jumping on people for putting a post down? If i want to put my opinion down in words i can, even if it has been said by others.
I rather gathered there were a few posts where people said it was a myth. I could trawl through and quote them but i can't be bothered. Just putting my point down and adding my opinion to the others, no harm in that? good of you to take the time to reiterate my post, i din't feel the need to say they needed less food and more exercies after because i thought that was implicit in the fact it makes them more prone to weight gain ...


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

fenwoman said:


> I think you are probably best of having a chat with your vet and asking questions about modern anaesthetics. Everyone on here will probably have a different opinion which will confuse you even more.


good point. i just worry a little about putting him under the risk of a reaction when it is not an operation that is totally necessary eg for an illness or an injury. i'm also just unsure of what age to consider it as many vets in my opinion advise it too young.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

fraggle said:


> good point. i just worry a little about putting him under the risk of a reaction when it is not an operation that is totally necessary eg for an illness or an injury. i'm also just unsure of what age to consider it as many vets in my opinion advise it too young.


 
I agree most vets advise it too young. I can see why they might do so in the case of bitches (although I still don't agree with it) but not with dogs. Personally, I would wait until he is mature, so around 2-3. 

There is some info here that might be helpful:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Obvously do discuss it with yourvet, but persoally, if he suggests neutering sooner rather than later, I'd want to know why.


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## Fraggle (Feb 24, 2008)

midori said:


> I agree most vets advise it too young. I can see why they might do so in the case of bitches (although I still don't agree with it) but not with dogs. Personally, I would wait until he is mature, so around 2-3.
> 
> There is some info here that might be helpful:
> 
> ...


thankyou  i know some people have it done to 'calm them down' but as far as i am aware a puppy isnt supposed to be calm, they are kids! and the only probs we really have with him is that he is a pain in the arse on the lead, he doesnt eat the house or hump things, he just pulls u over outside because he gets so excited, which is something that needs some training classes, not having the snip lol. or i could get him rollerskates...:lol2:


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

midori said:


> I agree most vets advise it too young. I can see why they might do so in the case of bitches (although I still don't agree with it) but not with dogs. Personally, I would wait until he is mature, so around 2-3.
> 
> There is some info here that might be helpful:
> 
> ...


Sanborns articles were found to be biased, misleading, incorrect in parts, as-well as deliberately leaving out important finding from the studies.

Many of studies were carried out by those concerned about the effects of early neutering, they were surprised at the results and changed their view in support of early neutering. People are often scared of things they have little knoweledge about, as were a lot of people when neutering of puppies and kittens was first carried out in America. If you read the studies you will see that there is no significant difference between neutering at weeks compared to months apart from the additional benefits.

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedSNVetJournals[1].pdf

http://www.angelswish.org/documents/SpayNeuterPaper.pdf

New Views on Neutering


Articles for members interested in learning about early neutering









http://www.tracylanddvm.com/PSN/html/pediatrics.html

Gsdhelpline.com - gsdhelpline Resources and Information.

http://www.king.igs.net/~brica/esp.htm

Early Spay/neuter

THE Pros and Cons of Early Spay and Neuter

Unexpected Benefits of Early Spay and Neuter of Cats


You will also find the RSPCA and Dogs Trust are for early neutering along with quite a few smaller rescues in this country.



Early neutering prevents hormone based negative behaviour from developing. Testosterone goes hand-in-hand with aggression, cocky behaviour, disobedience, bravado etc. The rise in hormones when males and females reach adolescence is what causes problems for many owners and the reason so many young entire adult dogs end up in rescue. By domesticating dogs we have taught them to be dependant on us, and not to display aggressive tendencies. Far kinder for a dog to naturally be non-confrontational than be trained and forced to be non-confrontational whilst fighting against their urges.


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> Sanborns articles were found to be biased, misleading, incorrect in parts, as-well as deliberately leaving out important finding from the studies.
> 
> Many of studies were carried out by those concerned about the effects of early neutering, they were surprised at the results and changed their view in support of early neutering. People are often scared of things they have little knoweledge about, as were a lot of people when neutering of puppies and kittens was first carried out in America. If you read the studies you will see that there is no significant difference between neutering at weeks compared to months apart from the additional benefits.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt there is no difference between weeks and months, but there is a difference between weeks/months and years. Especially in large breeds where urinary incontinence is more of a problem due to early neutering. Or where the effects of hormones on growth plate closure lead to gangly, rangey dogs that do not resemble their breed at all and are more prone to injury. 

I have said numerous times, I am not against neutering, but I am against people routinely doing so without properly knowing the pros and cons. I am also against neutering for population control, as (and again, I have said it before) responsible ownership prevets unwanted litters perectly well. 

I know a lot of people with entire dogs and bitches, some used for breeding, and not one has any sort of behavioural or other problems such as scent marking, running off, humping etc. Not one has had an accidental litter. In fact the one person who does have problems with scent marking and humping is my friend who works in a vets, and her dog is neutered and has been since very young.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

> I am also against neutering for population control, as (and again, I have said it before) responsible ownership prevets unwanted litters perectly well.


Are you having a laugh?

Responsable ownership stops unwanted litters? Please! Have you left the house and walked round a rescue or a pound recently? People are handing in unsold litters left right and centre atm.

So your saying all those people and rescues are wrong? So why are they agreeing with early neutering if its so wrong?


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

marthaMoo said:


> Are you having a laugh?
> 
> Responsable ownership stops unwanted litters? Please! Have you left the house and walked round a rescue or a pound recently? People are handing in unsold litters left right and centre atm.
> 
> So your saying all those people and rescues are wrong? So why are they agreeing with early neutering if its so wrong?


I help out with my breed rescue, (Goldens are one of the most prolifc breeds in the UK) so I am fully aware of the situation, and don't find it in the slightest bit funny. 

No-one responsible is breeding litters at the moment full stop. Those that are are only doing so to very full waiting lists. People that hand unsold litters into rescue are not responsible, they are idiots who should not be breeding in the first place.

The fact is, sadly, anyone with the cash to hand over can get a dog. People aren't responsible. Those same irresponsible people wouldn't bother to neuter their dogs, early, late or whatever. Personally, I feel they shouldn't be allowed to own any dog. 

If responsible ownership didn't prevent unwanted litters, then my three entire bitches would all be having 'accidental' litters left right and centre, as would the entire bitches of my friends who also own stud dogs, kept in the same house as their entire bitches.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Have to agree with that.

None of my 4 male dogs were ever neutered, but they never sired a litter! And my female had one planned litter which wasn't to the entire dog I had in the house at the time.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

There is a much more obvious way to prevent unwanted pups, have the dog or cat snipped, just like a human male.
As for the idea that it doesn't alter the dogs character, of course it does,sex is part of life, an essential part, imagine how you would feel being neutered, would it alter your behaviour?
Most neutering is done for the convenience of the owner not for the welfare of the animal.
Good training controls the behaviour of most dogs and it is my opinion that it should be a last resort.
cheers arthur.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

arthur cooke said:


> There is a much more obvious way to prevent unwanted pups, have the dog or cat snipped, just like a human male.
> As for the idea that it doesn't alter the dogs character, of course it does,sex is part of life, an essential part, imagine how you would feel being neutered, would it alter your behaviour?
> Most neutering is done for the convenience of the owner not for the welfare of the animal.
> Good training controls the behaviour of most dogs and it is my opinion that it should be a last resort.
> cheers arthur.


Imagine being told you can never have sex, but have to keep all the bits which are urging you to go have it. I imagine you would get pretty frustrated... it isn't purely for the owners benefit.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

arthur cooke said:


> There is a much more obvious way to prevent
> Most neutering is done for the convenience of the owner not for the welfare of the animal.


How do you work that one out? Obviously you havent read any of the threads posted with the actual facts.



missk said:


> Imagine being told you can never have sex, but have to keep all the bits which are urging you to go have it. I imagine you would get pretty frustrated... it isn't purely for the owners benefit.


Thank you :no1:


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## midori (Aug 27, 2006)

missk said:


> Imagine being told you can never have sex, but have to keep all the bits which are urging you to go have it. I imagine you would get pretty frustrated... it isn't purely for the owners benefit.


 
Hormones in animals that are celibate are reduced, so they don't get the same sexual urges as animals which are sexually active, in most cases. It is the reason you get 'batchelor' groups of wild animals such as horses.


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## missk (Jan 14, 2008)

midori said:


> Hormones in animals that are celibate are reduced, so they don't get the same sexual urges as animals which are sexually active, in most cases. It is the reason you get 'batchelor' groups of wild animals such as horses.


batchelor groups are in the main sexually immature animals incapable of challanging another male for females. 
Even if the hormones are reduced, if more people didn't get their animals neutered they would be smelling females on heat all the time and it would drive them nuts. think about it.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

I think that I'd rather be frustrated than be cut about. It's quite clear from many of the comments, that this operation is more for the benefit of the owners.
It is quite clearly an attempt via surgery to control aspects of the animals behaviour, which people don't like, i.e. sexual behaviour. This is part of an animals natural behaviour. If people don't like the reality of a dog then perhaps they should look for an alternative pet.
Dogs must be the most unfortunate animal on the planet. Not only do the poor things get cut to modify their behaviour but they are bred to the most ridiculous of shapes and sizes, unable to breath properly, walk normally etc. All to make them look like the owner wants. Some dogs don't even look like dogs.
cheers arthur


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## poshweiller (Nov 17, 2006)

i may be the one and only but my dog has no behaviour problems,he is a big soppy lump that really cant be bothered with anything in life other than cuddles and slow walks to the park.i looked at getting him neutered more for the testicular cancer worry and the fact he likes to leave white gunky blobs on the floor other than that there is nothing about him in general that makes me feel neutereing will help!


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

arthur cooke said:


> I think that I'd rather be frustrated than be cut about. It's quite clear from many of the comments, that this operation is more for the benefit of the owners.
> It is quite clearly an attempt via surgery to control aspects of the animals behaviour, which people don't like, i.e. sexual behaviour. This is part of an animals natural behaviour. If people don't like the reality of a dog then perhaps they should look for an alternative pet.
> Dogs must be the most unfortunate animal on the planet. Not only do the poor things get cut to modify their behaviour but they are bred to the most ridiculous of shapes and sizes, unable to breath properly, walk normally etc. All to make them look like the owner wants. Some dogs don't even look like dogs.
> cheers arthur



So what your saying is...
You dont agree with neutering (for your own personal reasons because you obviously havent read about the health or mental benifits)
But yet you also dont agree with breeding various breeds because of how they look.
So you would like a world where all dogs are entire but not allowed to breed? Unless they look right. 
Nice.... :whistling2:


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi, I don't believe in neutering as a method of controlling a dogs behaviour. If you know of some serious research indicating health benefits, then please point me in that direction. I have seen only peoples opinions, not serious research.
Crufts is a good example of how dogs are misshaped to such an extent that the animal suffers.
Tail docking is another example of shaping dogs for their looks, there's even one breed that's dying out because now they've got tails, nobody wants them.
I don't think that I've said I don't want dogs to not breed, the ones that shouldn't be bred are the ones that suffer with all sorts of health problems because they've been bred to look that way. Isn't there a breed standard that goes mainly on the looks of dogs.
cheers arthur.


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## arthur cooke (Jan 22, 2008)

Also would those who are thinking of nutering take a look at this.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

cheers arthur


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