# Convict conundrum



## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

I've recently bought a pair of convicts, I was told one male and one female and I'm quite certain that's correct by size and appearance of both fish. However the "Male" has yellowy fins and an orange speckled tint to it's back? Is this normal? Most pics I've seen only the females have any colours?


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## CPT BJ (Oct 30, 2010)

Some males do have a little bit of colour, any chance of sticking some pix up?


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Shredder said:


> I've recently bought a pair of convicts, I was told one male and one female and I'm quite certain that's correct by size and appearance of both fish. However the "Male" has yellowy fins and an orange speckled tint to it's back? Is this normal? Most pics I've seen only the females have any colours?


Could be Honduran red point cichlids-(Amatitlania siquia), They look quite like Convict cichlids-(Amatitlania nigrofasciata).


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

Yeah they do look similar to them, could well be! I'll try and get some pics up when I get in!


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Both can have the orange colouring the best way to tell is to look for the hump on the head, The males will mostly develop a small hump on the head. I would not worry to much anyway as you will soon know if you have a pair as they will breed!!! as male + female convicts = lot of baby convicts :lol2:


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

rum&coke said:


> Both can have the orange colouring the best way to tell is to look for the hump on the head, The males will mostly develop a small hump on the head. I would not worry to much anyway as you will soon know if you have a pair as they will breed!!! as male + female convicts = lot of baby convicts :lol2:


Yea, I agree 100%....they can breed like every 2-3 weeks if you keep removing the babies, but your best bet is just leave the babies in with them until they grow a decent size. From my experience, Convicts will care for their babies for several months, despite recommendations to remove them after 2-3 weeks. Pretty much ALL Cichlids are like this, and they will not produce another spawn w/ babies from a previous hatch still in their vicinity......MOST of the time. Kribensis have though, and began eating the other babies so the new ones could grow, but now we are talking a Riverine African Species rather than Central American and are only related by Family, rather than genus or species. If you could post some pictures it would be much easier to answer your questions.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

Convicts were the easiest fish ive ever kept. I might even go back to them again but a bigger shoal this time.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

markn said:


> Convicts were the easiest fish ive ever kept. I might even go back to them again but a bigger shoal this time.



They are pretty awesome fish, Was one of the first cichlids I kept many years ago and have recently set up a tank and got a pair again, and they are still just as interesting.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

rum&coke said:


> They are pretty awesome fish, Was one of the first cichlids I kept many years ago and have recently set up a tank and got a pair again, and they are still just as interesting.



Ha ha ive just found my clown loaches that i thought died months ago.

Happy days.

Looking for some convicts now too.


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

They're defo Honduran red points, problem is now the male is chasing the female everywhere! He won't leave her alone at all! Is this normal breeding behaviour or do i need to seperate?


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Shredder said:


> They're defo Honduran red points, problem is now the male is chasing the female everywhere! He won't leave her alone at all! Is this normal breeding behaviour or do i need to seperate?


It's normal breeding behavior, but unfortunately for SA/CA Cichlids, so is the male killing the female if she doesn't want to breed when HE wants to. My suggestion is give her some time, but if u start to notice missing scales or torn fins on her, seperate them until she looks like she's gravid. Gravid females will have a protruding ovipositor (?)....eeerr, the anus looks clogged w/ a fleshy-substance which is appears to be a light peach-color and almost makes her appear constipated for several days. At that point you can try for a spawn again, if not she may become egg-bound.


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

Luckily she has a few places to hide where the male can't get her! The only other tank I have has My musks and a few danios in it so it wouldn't be a good idea as the musks may catch her and she'll possibly get the Danios!!


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Shredder said:


> Luckily she has a few places to hide where the male can't get her! The only other tank I have has My musks and a few danios in it so it wouldn't be a good idea as the musks may catch her and she'll possibly get the Danios!!




Get a plexi-glass divider or a breeder net or you could possibly end up w/ a dead female.  He WILL kill her if she refuses to spawn when he wants.


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

Shredder said:


> They're defo Honduran red points, problem is now the male is chasing the female everywhere! He won't leave her alone at all! Is this normal breeding behaviour or do i need to seperate?


Since found out they're not honduran red points after all! Likely to be a cross species which is a pity as they are really nice looking fish! Trying to get them to keep still so i can get a decent pic to upload!!


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## XBexs123 (Jun 13, 2010)

awwww ive always wanted convicts, love them!


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

Any ideas what breed this is??? I thought it was male at first due to the sheer size compared to the rest but she's showing all the signs of being ready to spawn so i'm fairly sure it's a girl =)


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Sure look like Honduran Red-points to me....definitely not Archocentrus nigrofasciatus, that's for sure. How big are they? Does the suspected female have red scaling on the breast area as well? Can you take some pictures that are a bit more clear....these aren't exactly easy to see details on the fish, which is detrimental to sexing and determining species.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

looks like a female convict to me , Honduran Red-points are quite a similar looking fish but the head shape of the picture shown looks convict to me.

Hear are two pictures from google to show what I mean.


first the Honduran Red-points










notice the Honduran red point also has red fins and tail.


now the convict










Notice the orange on the body of the fish and lack of red fins also appear to me to have bigger lips than the the Honduran red points.


Also sexing them is pretty easy, this is a picture of a pair of convicts notice the male has a hump on it head, young males may not have much of a hump but it's pretty obvious on a adult male.









Not the best picture just used what I could find on google but looking at the pictures you have posted I would say they were convicts, but then again these fish breed like rabbits and cross breed easy also so may be a chance of them being convict X red point but I doubt it.


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## gazz (Dec 9, 2006)

Well i would say there both female, And that IMO there nither Convict or Red point but infact a Hybrid/Intergrade of them both. They have the typical orange belly and dorsal fin of the female Convict, But also the orange tone in the tail of the Red point.


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

I agree, I think both female now!! The one pictured spawned today


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

Does anyone know if Convicts and Honduran Red points can/will cross breed???


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Shredder said:


> Does anyone know if Convicts and Honduran Red points can/will cross breed???


Absolutely....they are the same genus (Archocentrus)....there are species that hybridize which are not even IN the same genus. Hybridization can occur through sub-species, species, or genus. For most living things, they must at least be in the same family to reproduce.


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

Yeah that's what i thought, My female spawned last week but decided to not even let a male near haha! She's the Alpha fish in the tank, it's so weird! She is the biggest though so hopefully one of the others will "man" up when the get a bit bigger and i may see some babies!!!

Unless i somehow ended up with 12 females?:iamwithstupid:


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Shredder said:


> Yeah that's what i thought, My female spawned last week but decided to not even let a male near haha! She's the Alpha fish in the tank, it's so weird! She is the biggest though so hopefully one of the others will "man" up when the get a bit bigger and i may see some babies!!!
> 
> Unless i somehow ended up with 12 females?:iamwithstupid:



Oh Dear...i hope you have a big tank....12??? If the largest fish is female, she will most likely reject smaller males. Typically, female SA/CA Cichlids tend to only spawn w/ a dominant male.


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

Yeah, got a 3x1x1.5. The female is by far the biggest, all the others are baby Honduran reds. Planning on having 2-3 breeding pairs so I should get that with 12  and selling/giving the fry away


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Shredder said:


> Yeah, got a 3x1x1.5. The female is by far the biggest, all the others are baby Honduran reds. Planning on having 2-3 breeding pairs so I should get that with 12  and selling/giving the fry away


Way too many fish, Dude. For every pair of Convicts there should be 30 U.S. Gallons for them and thier babies.....you have 12 fish in a 30 U.S. gallon tank instead. If just ONE of those pairs successfully hatches a clutch, they will attack and kill everything else in the tank. it is not wise to have more than one pair of ANY SA/CA Cichlids occupy a tank. PLUS, once they spawn you will need a back-up tank to put the other Convicts in. So say you remove the remaining 10 Convicts after the 1st pair have babies, and now 2 MORE pair up in your back-up tank......where do you put the remaining 8 if you have already used your back-up tank??? 

I'm just telling you from experience....Convicts breed fast and frequent likie rabbits, and they are already pretty aggressive, but a breeding pair of Convicts have been known to kill full grown Oscars. Your best bet is talk to some people or Pet Stores ahead of time and see if they can be ready to take some IMMEDIATELY or you'll end up with dead fish or the babies will get eaten or both. Depending on how many tanks you have/are willing make into nursery tanks, you are going to have to keep moving the other fish into a new tank everytime a pair forms and breeds. I had a pair of Convicts kill an Oscar and a Jack Dempsey.


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## Shredder (Jan 19, 2011)

You mis understand, I only have 1 adult female, the rest are babies!! Once they mature I'll know what sex they are and will keep 2 pairs! I have a fry tank ready and 3 pet stores that will take them once they reach a certain size! I've read lots on the subject don't worry. 

One question I do have though... What if I kept them like malawis? Ie overcrowded the tank to elimate 1 pair dominating? I've read a few pieces on doing this? Or what if I keep only females?


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## Victor Creed (Aug 25, 2010)

Shredder said:


> You mis understand, I only have 1 adult female, the rest are babies!! Once they mature I'll know what sex they are and will keep 2 pairs! I have a fry tank ready and 3 pet stores that will take them once they reach a certain size! I've read lots on the subject don't worry.
> 
> One question I do have though... What if I kept them like malawis? Ie overcrowded the tank to elimate 1 pair dominating? I've read a few pieces on doing this? Or what if I keep only females?



It depends....I have a 2 females ina my CA tank and they fight w/ each other more than any of the other fish. Convicts also tend to form a tight family bond when kept in groups, so any other fish you keep them with could get ganged-up on and killed. 

Cramping ANY type of SA/CA Cichlid will usually result in growth-stunting and apart from Malawi Cichlids, all other Cichlids should have 5-10 U.S. gallons per inch of fish, but you can get away with a pair of Convicts in a 20 gallon, but it's not what i reccomend, especially if they spawn. Personally, I think keeping 12 Convicts that are not grown is even worse than keeping 12 adult in a 30 gallon tank, as I doubt it will be enough room for them to grow and stunting is almost inevitable. I mean just do the math : one 4-inch female plus eleven 1-2 inch babies will need like 50-75 gallons going by the standard Cichlid-rule. It would be different if they were HER babies.

Reason being is that the babies will need space to grow, so whenspawning any species, it's best to use the Inch-per gallon rule of both adults X2 to allow the babies space. For instance, a pair of Convicts measuring 4 inches each would = a 40 gallon tank and 40 x 2 = 80 gallons. This is an extreme case, and a 40 breeder (30 gallons in my experience even) would be fine to breed small fish like Convicts, but when u get into the larger-growing Cichlids like Amphilophids, Parachromis, Aquidens, Cichlasoma, etc......this rule will be mandatory.

Anyway, aside from the rambling, MY advice to YOU, would be wait until a pair forms up and remove the other fish before the eggs hatch WITHOUT disturbing the nest....it would be better if you could research mating rituals to learn to recognize courtship behavior before the actual spawn, it will make it much less stressful removing the others BEFORE the eggs are even laid.....and trust me, doing it the other way is NOT easier by any means.....netting up several hundred wigglers before they eaten or sucked into a filter intake will drive you insane....trust me from experience. I have bred many SA/CA Cichlids numerous times and the information I relayed to you just now is knowledge based on experience.


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## markn (Jul 29, 2010)

Victor Creed said:


> It depends....I have a 2 females ina my CA tank and they fight w/ each other more than any of the other fish. Convicts also tend to form a tight family bond when kept in groups, so any other fish you keep them with could get ganged-up on and killed.
> 
> Cramping ANY type of SA/CA Cichlid will usually result in growth-stunting and apart from Malawi Cichlids, all other Cichlids should have 5-10 U.S. gallons per inch of fish, but you can get away with a pair of Convicts in a 20 gallon, but it's not what i reccomend, especially if they spawn. Personally, I think keeping 12 Convicts that are not grown is even worse than keeping 12 adult in a 30 gallon tank, as I doubt it will be enough room for them to grow and stunting is almost inevitable. I mean just do the math : one 4-inch female plus eleven 1-2 inch babies will need like 50-75 gallons going by the standard Cichlid-rule. It would be different if they were HER babies.
> 
> ...


All you ever do is rag on the size of peoples tanks.

We have all had our tanks for a long time and know when to stop adding fish or to rehome if they are too big and to look for signs of any problem. Im sure in the OPs experience the tank is for now adequate enough but they seem to have the sense to know when enough is enough.

We cant all have a trio 500 gallon tanks in our living room like you obviously have but lets just answer the questions posed to us and not use them as an opportunity to flex our over rated oppinions on others.

Rant over.

Sorry for the hi jack to the OP

Peace out : victory:


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Shredder said:


> You mis understand, I only have 1 adult female, the rest are babies!! Once they mature I'll know what sex they are and will keep 2 pairs! I have a fry tank ready and 3 pet stores that will take them once they reach a certain size! I've read lots on the subject don't worry.
> 
> One question I do have though... What if I kept them like malawis? Ie overcrowded the tank to elimate 1 pair dominating? I've read a few pieces on doing this? Or what if I keep only females?


 
No overcrowded sa/cs cichlid tanks wont work like overcrowded malawis tanks. African cichlids fight for territory and you will have a winner and a loser who will back down and find another rock to hide behind. sa/ca cichlids fight to the death to protect there baby's especially convicts, the reason they take on and kill bigger fish like Oscars is because they are prepared to die when they get into that fight, unlike malawis who are just fighting for dominance.
I don't think 2 pairs is a great idea as the two males will fight and also the amount of baby's two pairs would produce would overwhelm even a huge tank. I would keep one pair and maybe a hard b:censor: cat fish of some kind that will help to control the population by raiding the eggs and eating the baby's.


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## wohic (Jun 19, 2006)

Rather than deleting the whole thread i have tidied it and locked it....... do wish that members would try putting their points and opinions across without resorting to threats and abuse, This is supposed to be a help section !


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