# What is a hibernating Argentine B&W Tegu like?



## DeadLee (Apr 7, 2010)

I am researching getting an Argentine B&W Tegu but one thing that still baffles me and I can't seem to get a clear answer on is the hibernation. I know it's needed and I don't intend to stop the tegu from doing it.

However, I would like to know what happens during this time. Is it like a brumating bearded dragon in that they eat hardly anything but still move around a bit? Or is it more like I won't see them or even feed them for the whole time and just give them water?

What are they like during the hibernation can someone please share their experience.

Thanks


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

I'd like an answer to this one too. I can't really find much info on it; but what I did find seems to imply they naturally stop eating and coming out from their hide except every now and then to occasionally bask. I think the drop in night time temps has a lot to do with it. 
I am picking Cal up from the vet tomorrow, he is a specialist in large reptiles and has a zoology qualification, I think. Either way he is one of the top experts I'll ask him tomorrow and relay it to you?


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## DeadLee (Apr 7, 2010)

Chunk the tegu said:


> I'd like an answer to this one too. I can't really find much info on it; but what I did find seems to imply they naturally stop eating and coming out from their hide except every now and then to occasionally bask. I think the drop in night time temps has a lot to do with it.
> I am picking Cal up from the vet tomorrow, he is a specialist in large reptiles and has a zoology qualification, I think. Either way he is one of the top experts I'll ask him tomorrow and relay it to you?


That would be fantastic please do!

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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

Okay, I'll let you know tomorrow. :2thumb: I am going to see if he has any tips or recommendations regarding diet structure ect as well.


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

Hello, just got my very pissed off tegu back; and I mean PISSED off. 
But anyway I asked the vet about hibernation; and he said that it is definitely more brumation than hibernation. The animal's activity becomes lower, they eat less and may only come out of their burrow for the odd feed and to bask every now and then. 
I also asked about whether it is worth allowing them to go in to this phase and he said not unless you want to breed. He also said that generally, health wise, he does not recommend that tegus be put through the stress brumation can put upon their bodies. 
So basically, you keep the night temps up and they shouldn't be stimulated to start brumation. They may still become more sleepy and less inclined to eat through the winter months but they won't disappear inside their hides for months.

*I tried to get you a photo of him but didn't want to loose my hand. I will try again tomorrow. But according to the vet, he is big for his age, very strong and probably very much a boy as he is already beginning to get his jowls. It took two people to give him his jabs; and when they wormed him, he was so busy trying to bite the nurse they tossed the pill straight down his throat. All of which gives you some idea of how headstrong and powerful these animals can be. I am not saying that to make them seem like monsters but just to show they really aren't anything like the youtube vids (not necessarily that you think they all are); they have attitude but personally that's why I love them.


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## DeadLee (Apr 7, 2010)

Chunk the tegu said:


> Hello, just got my very pissed off tegu back; and I mean PISSED off.
> But anyway I asked the vet about hibernation; and he said that it is definitely more brumation than hibernation. The animal's activity becomes lower, they eat less and may only come out of their burrow for the odd feed and to bask every now and then.
> I also asked about whether it is worth allowing them to go in to this phase and he said not unless you want to breed. He also said that generally, health wise, he does not recommend that tegus be put through the stress brumation can put upon their bodies.
> So basically, you keep the night temps up and they shouldn't be stimulated to start brumation. They may still become more sleepy and less inclined to eat through the winter months but they won't disappear inside their hides for months.
> ...


Absolutely fantastic information from the vet really appreciated.

Hope your guy is better soon! Please do post pics when you can.


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

Chunk the tegu said:


> Hello, just got my very pissed off tegu back; and I mean PISSED off.
> But anyway I asked the vet about hibernation; and he said that it is definitely more brumation than hibernation. The animal's activity becomes lower, they eat less and may only come out of their burrow for the odd feed and to bask every now and then.
> I also asked about whether it is worth allowing them to go in to this phase and he said not unless you want to breed. He also said that generally, health wise, he does not recommend that tegus be put through the stress brumation can put upon their bodies.
> So basically, you keep the night temps up and they shouldn't be stimulated to start brumation. They may still become more sleepy and less inclined to eat through the winter months but they won't disappear inside their hides for months.


Honestly I'm a bit skeptical of the information your vet provided. I wouldn't advice going against the natural rhythm/behavior of an animal. Hibernation (not brumaton) is widely documented in wild tegus, with the exception of the blue tegus who tend to brumate. Hibernating is linked to several other body functions then breeding. Some keepers have noticed animals without hibernating have an increased risk of burning out, obesity and organ failure. Do what you think is best for your animal, I tend to think keeping as close to natural conditions is the way to go.


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

Creed said:


> Honestly I'm a bit skeptical of the information your vet provided. I wouldn't advice going against the natural rhythm/behavior of an animal. Hibernation (not brumaton) is widely documented in wild tegus, with the exception of the blue tegus who tend to brumate. Hibernating is linked to several other body functions then breeding. Some keepers have noticed animals without hibernating have an increased risk of burning out, obesity and organ failure. Do what you think is best for your animal, I tend to think keeping as close to natural conditions is the way to go.



I agree with deadlee, this is one confusing issue. 
I have also heard of tegus going in to full hibernation, it is something that has been talked about in one of the other forums, but again the information has been confused between whether the animal goes in to brumaton or hibernation, and I am tending to think that they do brumate however deeply as a lot of owners say the animals get up to bask and feed every now and again. Plus what I read of wild behaviour said the same. 
For this year though I am going to go with the vet just because he has been so dehydrated and not eating. I think health wise he hasn't had the best start for such a taxing period. Next year I will probably go with however Cal seems to be wanting to behave.


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## tremerz97 (Nov 30, 2012)

The info i have gathered over the years are from breeders and just common sense really... 
Tegus can and do go into full hibernation. 
It is beneficial for their health as they've evolved for millions/thousands of years hibernating. Keeping them awake all year round would put a lot of stress on their organs (mostly liver and kidneys). So not allowing them to hibernate will most likely result in a shorter life span.


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## colinm (Sep 20, 2008)

I am a bit confused as to why not hibernating them will cause organ failure. 

That being said I understand that they do hibernate in the wild. I believe that Bert Langerwerf was the first person to successfully breed this species. If you look at his papers he let his hibernate for six months in Tennessee. He kept them naturally outside and there are photos of his enclosures covered in snow. This it would seem would be akin to their natural behaviour.


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

A wild Tegu in Argentina would be very unlikely to experience snow but at the southern end of their range they will encounter colder weather, I think the Blues come from much further north where the winters are much milder.

Anything much below 70 degrees is going to make it difficult for a large reptile to get internally warm enough to digest properly IIRC it is around these temperatures (constant for a week or so) that they stop eating and prepare to hibernate.


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

I don't get the kidney and liver issues. Diet and obesity seems more the culprit for that issue. 

Hibernation isn't a period of rest for any animal nor is it a detox and fresh start, it is done as an environmental necessity in the group of hibernators called facultative hibernators. Tegus seem to belong more to this group than the other group known as obligate hibernators as obligates will hibernate regardless of temperature, you simply can't force them to stay up. 

If someone said that hibernation was better for the reproductive health of a tegu, I could believe it as hibernation appears to allow and stimulate normal function for the reproductive system. But the liver, kidneys and digestive system has to stop normal function which would cause far more stress. It is a fact that any animal of any hibernating species that goes in to hibernation in anything less than tip-top condition is very likely to not make it through the other side and the animals that do are thinner than when they went in. Toxins, however gradually do build up until the animal wakes up and flushes them. There is a reason not pooing and weeing makes someone feel sick and goes beyond clearing out digested food. The body also uses evacuation to expel used products from the blood (like dead blood cells) and tissue regardless of what has or hasn't been eaten. Just because the tegu or any other hibernating animal hasn't eaten does not mean that it would not slowly produce wastes this would cause a lot of stress to the kidneys especially. The metabolism may be depressed during hibernation but it has not stopped. 
It makes me wonder whether the fact that most tegus in captivity are obese and fed high protein diets (too much turkey mince/chicken hearts/cat food especially in America) that does damage their liver and kidneys, is confusing the issue somewhat. Not only would hibernation eat up some of their excess calories (of which they would have plenty) it would also give them respite from their diets. In an odd way it would detox them where an animal that stays up would be constantly exposed to a diet that is understandably going to kill them quicker than old age. And this diet would kill them via liver and kidney issues. 

This would also explain why there is confusion between whether this species goes in to full hibernation or brumation. They are not obligate so are simply going to sleep as heavily as they need to. Outside in the snow they are going to go into full hibernation as it is too cold to do anything else, inside where someone's central heating and insulating is affecting things they could well just go in to low level brumation getting up every now and then as a lot of owners report. 

This could also explain some of the confusion. A lot of tegu breeders in the USA/warmer countries do keep their animals outdoors, they are likely to be healthier as these experienced owners are providing better diets plus natural UV and big roaming/living areas. These animals are going to be the ones that go into full hibernation when winter strikes.
Where most of those that are kept indoors would be normal pets and privy to many of the common mistakes like poor diet and big portions. These would be easier to keep up due to constant temperatures within the house or more likely only to brumate instead of hibernate due to household warmth. They are also more likely to be fat/ have UV exposure issues and shorter lives, they are also more likely to either be kept up or brumate. 

I am not saying any of this to be argumentative and really hope no one thinks I am, but I am definitely finding it an interesting topic though . . . :lol2:


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## DeadLee (Apr 7, 2010)

Chunk the tegu said:


> I don't get the kidney and liver issues. Diet and obesity seems more the culprit for that issue.
> 
> Hibernation isn't a period of rest for any animal nor is it a detox and fresh start, it is done as an environmental necessity in the group of hibernators called facultative hibernators. Tegus seem to belong more to this group than the other group known as obligate hibernators as obligates will hibernate regardless of temperature, you simply can't force them to stay up.
> 
> ...


Amazing reply I think you hit the nail on the head.

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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

Just to comment on the UV issue, as I have done before btw, there are very few animals on the planet that can actually detect UV in any meaningful way (insects and a few Bats mainly). For most it is a case of "damn that burns" which comes long after too much exposure.

Rhaegar physically attacks his UV lamp when it is on for too long, none of my other reps do this so probably another indication of his intelligence. In his big viv (which is finished at last! Just got to fill it with substrate) the UV source will be much further away and I'll set a timer on it to minimise exposure so hopefully he will be happier.

Any animal that lives in a mainly forest cover environment will be exposed to very low levels of UV, trees have evolved to maximise absorption of light so at the floor of a forest there is almost no light left and definitely no UV (UV does not reflect off organics like higher wavelengths) except in the rare openings in the canopy.

Knowing where Tegus live I suspect any benefits from UV are minimal for them (unlike for example desert species which have way more protection from UV), in fact given that their typical diet contains high levels of D3 they probably get very little benefit from it.

The only reps that actually have to have high levels of UV are those with a predominantly vegetarian diet (very few plants provide any D3) or pure insectivores because most insects do not produce D3.

This does not mean NO UV btw, just low levels of exposure are sufficient for a healthy life.


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

On to hibernation/brumation.

Consensus seems to be that obligate hibernators do in fact live a lot longer when allowed to hibernate fully each year, and also breeding success is higher in such species. Having said that it seems obvious that some species are able to hibernate when they need to but also are not too bothered by not doing so if the environment allows. For example snakes can if need be but don't seem to need to.

What I mean by this is that some species have evolved in a way that they need a yearly hibernation to be healthy, some have evolved the opposite way, i.e. they physically cannot do so. Yet others, my guess is the majority, can do either as need arises.

Take an adder from England to Greece and it will probably not bother to brumate/hibernate and will most like live just as long as one left in England.

Similarly given that Blue Tegus and B&Ws are so similar genetically speaking, if a Blue does not suffer from not hibernating then given a proper diet a B&W will probably not suffer from not doing so either.


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

If none of that makes any sense blame the Lager. :blush:


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

Actually, the way a lot of breeders in the USA keep their animals more fits with what you say Amen. By natural UVB, I mean they have open sky access plus heavily planted enclosures, so they are probably getting UV in levels much more to keeping with their natural environment, which as you say, is more likely than not low. 

The only reason why I have mine on a 12% is because I don't D3 supplement but I vitamin supplement. I have never seen mine try to attack the tube though, once I saw him try to tiperope walk along its reflector though then he fell off sideways. Mostly he ignores it. 

btw; I get the bum rage thing now, I don't think I will ever get near his tail end again.


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

You've got Lager? . . . I want Lager . . . NO FAIR!!


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

AmenMoses said:


> A wild Tegu in Argentina would be very unlikely to experience snow but at the southern end of their range they will encounter colder weather, I think the Blues come from much further north where the winters are much milder.


Blue tegu's come from an island of the coast of Brazil (Fernando de noronha), from what I've read they were introduced to control the rodent population, but quickly became a pest themselves. 



colinm said:


> I am a bit confused as to why not hibernating them will cause organ failure.


I've discussed this point once before with friend. He made the argument that the animals are 'wired' to gain as much weight/reserves in as little time as possible. The metabolic rates and systems are put into 'overdrive'. This would put stress on several organs and without an hibernation to put an end to this 'overdrive' the stress on some organs would be too much. As far as I'm aware this doesn't have any scientific base, but I find it somewhat plausible at the very least.



Chunk the tegu said:


> I don't get the kidney and liver issues. Diet and obesity seems more the culprit for that issue.
> 
> Hibernation isn't a period of rest for any animal nor is it a detox and fresh start,


This is very unlikely to be true. Gut fauna will most likely be effect by a 6 month stop in feeding and will most likely be very different after hibernation then before (are there any studies who have focused on this field of study?). The effects of this should not be underestimated. Poo transplants (I sh*t you not) have shown promise in fighting obesity in humans. 



Chunk the tegu said:


> If someone said that hibernation was better for the reproductive health of a tegu, I could believe it as hibernation appears to allow and stimulate normal function for the reproductive system. But the liver, kidneys and digestive system has to stop normal function which would cause far more stress.


Not true, it's quite normal for some of these body function to slow down or stop functioning. It happens when your asleep or are running are marathon for example. 'Normal function' for a exothermic animal is quite different than normal functioning to us. Hibernation is the 'normal function' for an hibernating animal.

Further the halting of production organs is for me enough reason to always hibernate the animal even when I do not want breed the animal. It's a clear signal to me that something is serious wrong if the body 'naturally' shuts down it's reproductive systems. Keep in mind that this systems is so important that animals sometimes die to reproduce. So shutting this system off isn't a small thing for the body.



Chunk the tegu said:


> It is a fact that any animal of any hibernating species that goes in to hibernation in anything less than tip-top condition is very likely to not make it through the other side and the animals that do are thinner than when they went in.


Hibernation is not nearly as dangerous as some people make it out to be. Wild animals often have parasites, diseases or are underweight. These animal are far from 'tip-top-condition' but yet make it through hibernation. The loss of weight is in no way a detrimental process however and seems to be part of their natural rhythm.



Chunk the tegu said:


> Toxins, however gradually do build up until the animal wakes up and flushes them. There is a reason not pooing and weeing makes someone feel sick and goes beyond clearing out digested food. The body also uses evacuation to expel used products from the blood (like dead blood cells) and tissue regardless of what has or hasn't been eaten. Just because the tegu or any other hibernating animal hasn't eaten does not mean that it would not slowly produce wastes this would cause a lot of stress to the kidneys especially.


The rate that these toxin are produced however is significantly slowed or stopped all together however. The amount of waste products the kidney's would have to dispose of is nothing compared to the waste they have to dispose of in 6 months of continuous production. if the amount of waste they need to dispose is an indication of the amount of stress they endure, it would be far less stressful for them to hibernate.
What’s also interesting is that the balance of electrolytes in blood works during hibernation changes (the study that describes this was performed on a Varanus greseus though). What effect this has on the body is yet unclear, but that it has a significant effect is interesting in itself and points to a slew of body functions that we currently don't have a clue about.


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

AmenMoses said:


> On to hibernation/brumation.
> 
> Consensus seems to be that obligate hibernators do in fact live a lot longer when allowed to hibernate fully each year, and also breeding success is higher in such species. Having said that it seems obvious that some species are able to hibernate when they need to but also are not too bothered by not doing so if the environment allows. For example snakes can if need be but don't seem to need to.
> 
> ...


 That's where the difference lays, take an obligate hibernator out of its natural environment and it will still hibernate regardless of the temperature variance. 

You've pretty much typed what I was trying to get at. Reports of tegus suffering liver or kidney disease is more likely to be the product of poor diet which is sadly very common in private captivity with this species, rather than anything to do with the depth of hibernation or whether it takes place at all.


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

Picture time, the rearmost lamp is a home build heat lame, 6 halogen bulbs plus reflector. The front lamp is a T5 12% UV lamp. From Lamps to Basking spot is just under 2 feet. White blob in the background its the thermostat probe. Basking spot is made of some sort of black stone I got from B&Q.

To the right on the ceiling is a radiator for nightie heat in the winter, you can also just make out the edge if the 'wet' end/pool area.

(edited to add that basking spot is about 2 feet above the floor of the enclosure, that gap will be almost full of active substrate for digging)


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

Creed said:


> Blue tegu's come from an island of the coast of Brazil (Fernando de noronha), from what I've read they were introduced to control the rodent population, but quickly became a pest themselves.


Which is way North of Argentina.

I had heard that Tegus are less pest and more lunch! Looking at Rhaegar me thinks a rather large lunch.


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

Chunk the tegu said:


> That's where the difference lays, take an obligate hibernator out of its natural environment and it will still hibernate regardless of the temperature variance.


Do you have an example?

I thought all hibernators were triggered by environment, especially heat or period of sunlight?


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

AmenMoses said:


> Any animal that lives in a mainly forest cover environment will be exposed to very low levels of UV, trees have evolved to maximize absorption of light so at the floor of a forest there is almost no light left and definitely no UV (UV does not reflect off organics like higher wavelengths) except in the rare openings in the canopy.


This is often assumed, but a lot of these forest species have been observed basking in the full sun. Either near natural openings such as clearings or water, or on manmade roofs or towns. While not much UV penetrates the forest floor, most reptile species are surprising handy in seeking out basking spot in the full light. Besids, as far as I'm aware of the largest part of their range consists of grassland and savannah, not thick dark rainforests.



AmenMoses said:


> Knowing where Tegus live I suspect any benefits from UV are minimal for them (unlike for example desert species which have way more protection from UV), in fact given that their typical diet contains high levels of D3 they probably get very little benefit from it.


Well surprisingly, wild tegu's have been noted to eat quite a lot of plant matter in the wild, which contains (almost or) no D3. 



AmenMoses said:


> The only reps that actually have to have high levels of UV are those with a predominantly vegetarian diet (very few plants provide any D3) or pure insectivores because most insects do not produce D3.
> 
> This does not mean NO UV btw, just low levels of exposure are sufficient for a healthy life.


If research on Bearded dragon is an indication, they'll most likely be highly effective with the little D3 they get in captivity. This is not however how these animal live in the wild.


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

Creed said:


> This is often assumed, but a lot of these forest species have been observed basking in the full sun. Either near natural openings such as clearings or water, or on manmade roofs or towns. While not much UV penetrates the forest floor, most reptile species are surprising handy in seeking out basking spot in the full light. Besids, as far as I'm aware of the largest part of their range consists of grassland and savannah, not thick dark rainforests.


True but very rarely would they bask between about 10am and 2pm when UV is at its peak, at those times the behaviour is to hide away from the sunlight.

The peak times for 'safe' IR radiation from the sun (i.e. when UV is at a minimum) is early morning and late afternoon, if the ambient temperature is low then these basking times are essential for reptiles to gain extra heat.



> Well surprisingly, wild tegu's have been noted to eat quite a lot of plant matter in the wild, which contains (almost or) no D3.


When they are adults, i.e. after the main period of bone growth which is when D3 is most beneficial. Even then around 40% of the diet consists of 'meat' of some description 



> If research on Bearded dragon is an indication, they'll most likely be highly effective with the little D3 they get in captivity. This is not however how these animal live in the wild.


Bearded dragons are an entirely different beast, they have a huge amount of adaptations to protect them from UV so they need a high level of exposure to overcome those adaptations to get any benefit! Low level UV for them is just a complete waste of electricity because it isn't going to penetrate.

The same problem exists with Tortoises, their adapted protection against over exposure means they need high levels of UV just to get through.


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## AmenMoses (Feb 21, 2015)

Different angle showing entrance to 'hide' area. When full of substrate this will be a burrow. Measures around 4 feet by 18 inches and around 2 feet deep.


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

Amenmoses, your enclosure is looking hot!


I've discussed this point once before with friend. He made the argument that the animals are 'wired' to gain as much weight/reserves in as little time as possible. The metabolic rates and systems are put into 'overdrive'. This would put stress on several organs and without an hibernation to put an end to this 'overdrive' the stress on some organs would be too much. As far as I'm aware this doesn't have any scientific base, but I find it somewhat plausible at the very least.

- This gorging is common to all animals that hibernate and is used in preparation. For an animal that has been provided with a poor, overly rich diet than hibernation would give them a break from the inappropriate diet. However if the diet is balanced then there is no need for the hibernation to compensate for it, and gorging does not have to be facilitated nor does it have to be stimulated. The night temps can be kept up. 

This is very unlikely to be true. Gut fauna will most likely be effect by a 6 month stop in feeding and will most likely be very different after hibernation then before (are there any studies who have focused on this field of study?). The effects of this should not be underestimated. Poo transplants (I sh*t you not) have shown promise in fighting obesity in humans. 

- Gut flora would certainly be affected by a 6 month stop in digestive activity. In fact it would probably undergo a die off. Faecal transplants are being forwarded in the treatment of C.diff patients, especially the elderly who have undergone numerous antibiotic courses causing a mass murder of gut bugs. Healthy gut bacteria balance has been linked to everything from appetite to mental health, it is fundamental. But a fundamental fact of healthy gut flora is healthy diet. 

Not true, it's quite normal for some of these body function to slow down or stop functioning. It happens when your asleep or are running are marathon for example. 'Normal function' for a exothermic animal is quite different than normal functioning to us. Hibernation is the 'normal function' for an hibernating animal.

- They do indeed, they slow during sleep to stop disruption of a major function and they stop during exercise as the body diverts energy to the muscles. But it is only short term. Normal function for both endothermics and exothermics is at the basic level the same. True, exotherms may be able to endure extreme periods without food ect, but that is only because these functions and the basic biology behind them slows in a way the internally driven metabolism of an endotherm cannot allow, not because it is different. 

Further the halting of production organs is for me enough reason to always hibernate the animal even when I do not want breed the animal. It's a clear signal to me that something is serious wrong if the body 'naturally' shuts down it's reproductive systems. Keep in mind that this systems is so important that animals sometimes die to reproduce. So shutting this system off isn't a small thing for the body.

- Reproduction is so important it has its own separate element to evolution; sexual selection. Many animals fight and die for this right, but first they must make it to sexual maturity and to do this they must endure natural selection. Sexual selection always plays second fiddle to this major selection force. Natural selection has given certain animals the need and ability to hibernate to endure periods of the extreme in their environment. But only because their environment has applied this pressure, not because their biology has underlying need for it. For some their biology may become so in synch to this need that it becomes compulsive, they will hibernate at the same time regardless of whether they have been removed from the actual environment that caused the initial pressure. For others the will to hibernate has to be stimulated by cues given by the environment, as soon as that environment changes and the cues disappear so does the will. The reproductive urge itself is dictated by the seasons, as it is for almost all animals on the planet. It makes sense that this would tie itself to hibernation. 
But an animal can live without reproducing, reproduction is the be all and end all of evolution and the species; but it is not the be all and end all of the individual animal. 

Hibernation is not nearly as dangerous as some people make it out to be. Wild animals often have parasites, diseases or are underweight. These animal are far from 'tip-top-condition' but yet make it through hibernation. The loss of weight is in no way a detrimental process however and seems to be part of their natural rhythm.

- All wild animals have parasites, these creatures actually have an effect upon the host that is so import that their absence in humans has been linked to autoimmune diseases like ulcerative colitis. Most biologists now believe that for the most part parasites and the immune system hold each other in check, and that it is only in animals that are already failing that the parasite load starts to overwhelm. Parasite presence is not evidence of weakness. However if an animal goes into hibernation with disease or under weight, it will wake up just that much weaker putting it on a back foot when it comes to competing and earning resources, making it even more difficult to reach and get through the next hibernation cycle. Slowly, more often than not a weak animal entering hibernation will only get weaker; it is a slow burn process, not instant. 

The rate that these toxin are produced however is significantly slowed or stopped all together however. The amount of waste products the kidney's would have to dispose of is nothing compared to the waste they have to dispose of in 6 months of continuous production. if the amount of waste they need to dispose is an indication of the amount of stress they endure, it would be far less stressful for them to hibernate.
What***8217;s also interesting is that the balance of electrolytes in blood works during hibernation changes (the study that describes this was performed on a Varanus greseus though). What effect this has on the body is yet unclear, but that it has a significant effect is interesting in itself and points to a slew of body functions that we currently don't have a clue about.[/QUOTE]

- The fact that the toxins produced are voided is the important part, not the rate at which the body is pulling them out, that is simply an affect of being awake and the metabolism being fired up. Toxins are voided because the longer they are in body the more harm they cause. 

"if the amount of waste they need to dispose is an indication of the amount of stress they endure, it would be far less stressful for them to hibernate."

- I think we would all be far less stressed if allowed to sleep all the time but sleep is not living. If a tegu's waste/toxin production went up through not being allowed to hibernate then I would agree hibernation has a positive effect upon stress, but if it does not then not being allowed to hibernate does not increase stress load upon the body, the body just goes on producing toxins/waste at its usual waking rate. Normal. 

It is a good debate  Trying to write this reply and multiple quotes sucked.


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## Creed (Apr 2, 2014)

Chunk the tegu said:


> - This gorging is common to all animals that hibernate and is used in preparation. For an animal that has been provided with a poor, overly rich diet than hibernation would give them a break from the inappropriate diet. However if the diet is balanced then there is no need for the hibernation to compensate for it, and gorging does not have to be facilitated nor does it have to be stimulated. The night temps can be kept up.


He was suggesting that the 'overdrive' isn't a facilitate process but part of metabolic pathway. It's not the amount of food he was referring to but the way the animal processes it. You couldn't compensate for this by feeding less, the body is simply trying to gain as much weight as possible regardless of the intake. A hibernation would reset these pathways. 



Chunk the tegu said:


> - Gut flora would certainly be affected by a 6 month stop in digestive activity. In fact it would probably undergo a die off. Faecal transplants are being forwarded in the treatment of C.diff patients, especially the elderly who have undergone numerous antibiotic courses causing a mass murder of gut bugs. Healthy gut bacteria balance has been linked to everything from appetite to mental health, it is fundamental. But a fundamental fact of healthy gut flora is healthy diet.


I agree.



Chunk the tegu said:


> - They do indeed, they slow during sleep to stop disruption of a major function and they stop during exercise as the body diverts energy to the muscles. But it is only short term. Normal function for both endothermics and exothermics is at the basic level the same. True, exotherms may be able to endure extreme periods without food ect, but that is only because these functions and the basic biology behind them slows in a way the internally driven metabolism of an endotherm cannot allow, not because it is different.


You can’t claim that ‘normal functions’ are similar between an endothermic and an ectothermic animal. The metabolic rates are very different at a basic level and this goes much deeper than simply a surviving periods without food. There are exothermic animals that can survive very long stretches (months) without any O2 because of their metabolic pathways. 



Chunk the tegu said:


> - Reproduction is so important it has its own separate element to evolution; sexual selection. Many animals fight and die for this right, but first they must make it to sexual maturity and to do this they must endure natural selection. Sexual selection always plays second fiddle to this major selection force. Natural selection has given certain animals the need and ability to hibernate to endure periods of the extreme in their environment. But only because their environment has applied this pressure, not because their biology has underlying need for it. For some their biology may become so in synch to this need that it becomes compulsive, they will hibernate at the same time regardless of whether they have been removed from the actual environment that caused the initial pressure. For others the will to hibernate has to be stimulated by cues given by the environment, as soon as that environment changes and the cues disappear so does the will. The reproductive urge itself is dictated by the seasons, as it is for almost all animals on the planet. It makes sense that this would tie itself to hibernation.


Sexual selection has never played second fiddle in evolution. If it had birds of paradise would never have existed. But sexual selection is (mostly) about partner choice, while I'm referring to the ability to breed at all. 

Because the environment 'applied' pressure it's exactly the reason why these animals should hibernate. They have evolved to be depended on these conditions (if they were not, breeding wouldn't have stopped). Compare it to keeping a bearded dragon on room temperature. The animal has adapted to scorching temperatures, so we try to mimic this in our husbandry instead of providing more 'suitable' (room) temperatures.



Chunk the tegu said:


> But an animal can live without reproducing, reproduction is the be all and end all of evolution and the species; but it is not the be all and end all of the individual animal.


It is however the point of biology in general, which pretty much dictates everything single living thing. An individual is no exception. 
Even if that wasn’t the case, a healthy captive animal to me is an animal with all its body functions working and can express as much of its natural behavior. In my opinion, deciding what body functions an animal is able to express or what behavior it’s allowed to show isn’t part of responsible keeping. I feel responsible for providing the same environmental que an wild animal would get for nature. So the animal can decide what it wants to do on its own. I’m not making any active choices for an animal, I’m only facilitating whatever the animal normally would be exposed to.



Chunk the tegu said:


> - All wild animals have parasites, these creatures actually have an effect upon the host that is so import that their absence in humans has been linked to autoimmune diseases like ulcerative colitis. Most biologists now believe that for the most part parasites and the immune system hold each other in check, and that it is only in animals that are already failing that the parasite load starts to overwhelm. Parasite presence is not evidence of weakness. However if an animal goes into hibernation with disease or underweight, it will wake up just that much weaker putting it on a back foot when it comes to competing and earning resources, making it even more difficult to reach and get through the next hibernation cycle. Slowly, more often than not a weak animal entering hibernation will only get weaker; it is a slow burn process, not instant.


True, but this would point to a rather short lifespan in the wild, which isn't the case as far as I'm aware. It could be of course a very slow burn, over the course of decades. But I doubt this would make such a difference if this was the case. Like I stated before, keepers have noticed the animals that didn't hibernate die quicker than the ones that do. I believe this has been noted in keepers who kept animals (non-hibernating ones and hibernating ones) in similar conditions


Chunk the tegu said:


> - The fact that the toxins produced are voided is the important part, not the rate at which the body is pulling them out, that is simply an effect of being awake and the metabolism being fired up. Toxins are voided because the longer they are in body the more harm they cause.


Lucky this isn't completely true. Most waste products are harmless in low quantity’s and can be stored safely. If these waste products couldn't be stored we had to go the bath room almost continuously.




Chunk the tegu said:


> - I think we would all be far less stressed if allowed to sleep all the time but sleep is not living. If a tegu's waste/toxin production went up through not being allowed to hibernate then I would agree hibernation has a positive effect upon stress, but if it does not then not being allowed to hibernate does not increase stress load upon the body, the body just goes on producing toxins/waste at its usual waking rate. Normal.


Sleeping definitely is living, you'd die pretty quickly without it 

Of course the rate of toxin production in a hibernating animal is always lower than one that hasn't. We're talking about a half year worth of production that the animal is missing. Years of living in these conditions have forced this to become normal for them. So an extra half year of production is definitely not 'normal' for these animal



Chunk the tegu said:


> It is a good debate  Trying to write this reply and multiple quotes sucked.[/FONT][/COLOR]


Yep, totally agree +1 :no1:


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## Chunk the tegu (Feb 18, 2015)

- Ah I get what you mean now, sorry me and late night replies don't exactly agree. So your friend was suggesting that the metabolism "ups gear" as it were in order to encourage the animal itself to start gorging in preparation for hibernation? Then undergoing hibernation makes the metabolism go back into normal gear. 
That makes more sense now. Yes I can understand the theory and the thinking behind that. However I would still forward that the stimulus for the metabolism is not automatic but rather stimulated again by cues from the environment. Autumn comes the days shorten and the temperatures drops stimulating the metabolism to change gear. Most animals will eat more in response to oncoming winter in order to gain the fat layers needed. Keep the temps and daylight hours the same and the metabolism simply will not shift. 
It is a shame there is not more research on this front. 

- Poorly explained on my part with bad word choice. Every branch on the evolutionary tree comes from the same trunk. I did not mean normal function I meant basic functions, fundamental right down on the micro-level kind of function. Exotherms can endure long periods without food because they can slow their metabolism to a snail crawl and lower, as can some mammals who also hibernate. But the fact the both exotherms and endotherms need food for energy is the same, how they derive energy from this nourishment on the cellular or micro level is the same. For all animals there is a point of optimum efficiency in regards to metabolic activity, and it is tied to temperature. For example enzymes in the gut are at their most effective at 37, they denature at higher temps and slow at lower temps. Hibernation occurs because the energy the animal would need to endure an extreme environmental condition simply outstrips what the animal would gain by enduring it. Tegus hibernate not for biological reasons as such, biologically they can keep going, but the environment in which they live changes and makes that impossible, forcing an evolutionary adaption by which turning down the metabolism becomes the lesser of two evils. Biologically they have no real need to hibernate, however they can do if the environment enforces the need for such an action. 

- Sexual selection is always second fiddle to natural selection. Natural selection is what could kill the bird of paradise before it even got to grow its marvellous tail let alone use it to woo a female. Natural selection is the predators, the territorial rivals, the resource competition, it is what ensures the best are the ones who then reach the point they can compete for mates. Sexual selection gave the birds of paradise their tails, because that is the trait the females preferred, Natural selection makes sure they can still avoid the predators even despite that extreme trait.
Tegus ability to breed is not completely negated by not hibernating, but hibernation does help to induce the hormones and biological conditioning the animal needs to reach breeding prime. All animals have their reproductive cycles dictated by the seasonal cycles for the most part, not because the biology behind it is dependent upon it; the testes can produce sperm regardless and the ovaries ovum, however being born at the wrong time will kill the offspring. 

- The point of evolution in general is the continuation of the species, yes the individual may have drives to mate which then leads to reproduction, but the inability to do so will not harm the individual animal. The action of evolution upon the individual animal and the whole species can be two totally different things. A lion getting itself injured in a way that will then lead to its death is devastating for that individual but the species as a whole is strengthened by the loss of that weak animal. A tegu has the need to breed but repressing that by not hibernating the animal will not damage the animal. However I eat those words in the case of becoming egg bound, if there is evidence that female reptiles belonging to species that do hibernate suffer higher incidence of egg binding when not allowed to hibernate then I concede the point in the instance of the female half of that species. 

"Even if that wasn’t the case, a healthy captive animal to me is an animal with all its body functions working and can express as much of its natural behavior. In my opinion, deciding what body functions an animal is able to express or what behavior it’s allowed to show isn’t part of responsible keeping. I feel responsible for providing the same environmental que an wild animal would get for nature. So the animal can decide what it wants to do on its own. I’m not making any active choices for an animal, I’m only facilitating whatever the animal normally would be exposed to."

You've got me there. 

- The presence of parasites is no indicator of shorter lifespan, the increasing of parasite load in an animal is now believed to be a secondary indicator of an underlying condition. Hibernation does not shorten the lifespan of animals that go in to such a state strong, but it will weaken further an animal that is already weak. The death of these weak animals is likely to be of the course of a few years tops. For example bears, those that wake up weak do not get access to prime sites for feeding, they find it harder to gain weight for the next hibernation cycle. They enter hibernation again even weaker then the year before. The same could be said of any animal that hibernates, in the wild access to the best feeding sites/habitat ect goes to the strongest animals as the weak get pushed to the sidelines. Hibernation makes the weak weaker. 
My question regarding the research that suggests animals that hibernate live longer than those that don't is regarding the subjects themselves. Was this research done on animals kept the same way/given the same diet? Or was it a survey involving asking owners how long their animals lived? Whether they hibernated or not? If the survey was spread over amateur keepers and pro-breeders, over those that provided best diet and those that provided the high protein diet that they believed would make their animal as chunky as possible. This is why I believe the results to be skewed. 

- Toxins can be stored for short periods, we don't go to the bathroom continuously but we do go every several hours or so. The kidneys especially suffer if you don't allow them to empty, which is why you shouldn't hold the urge to go and piddle. 

- Sleeping is vital for living creatures, as I wrote in the last post, the reason why the metabolism slows during sleep and stops you from needing get up to pee is so that a vital function is not interrupted. There is a family affected by a disease, that when they reach a certain age their brain simply stops being able to initiate a proper sleep cycle. It starts with a broken sleep pattern, like waking up ect then just gets worse to the point they cannot sleep at all. Until I saw that, I did not realise just how brutal such a condition would be, but the members of this family are pretty much tortured until they die; it was horrible. 
As to the second bit, yes of course the rate of toxin production is less in an animal whilst it is hibernating. That is not what I meant, what I meant was does an animal that has been allowed to hibernate produce less toxins after hibernation, then one that has been enabled to stay up? Or does the animal that has been made to stay up go on producing the normal level of toxins on the same level as the animal that has hibernated? If both produce the same amount regardless of hibernation status then personally I don't believe hibernation has any related influence upon toxin production, positive or negative, or related stress upon the organs responsible for flushing them like the liver and kidneys. 

:Na_Na_Na_Na:


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