# Is my bearded dragon too skinny?



## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

So about a week ago I joined a bearded dragon group/forum. I have now left 
I had loads of people going mental because apparently I’m starving my bearded dragon and he is skinny. I have had people say “oh so thin” and “skinny much” “you should try to feed him up” “your under feeding him” ect
So this is how I feed him:
Every day he gets his greens. I try to scatter them around the viv and put them on the logs ect so he does a bit of foraging. This was something some people did seem to understand. They didn’t attack me for it but did ask why as its nicer, cleaner and easier to clean but also for the reptile to put it always in a bowel or hand feed it to them. With this they were more like do as you will but it’s a waste of time and no need. To me though if it enriches his life its not a waste of time. But that’s my opinion and have nothing against the use of bowels and I probably would use them if I got a more herbivores reptile eg iguana.
Once a week he gets a tub of hoppers (5th) these are dusted in his supplements. Then once hes full on them I release a tub of crickets and morio worms into the viv about once/twice a month just to make sure numbers don’t go to low.
I feed them once every two-three days after the lights go off. This means they are well fed and have plenty of cover in the leaf litter and so while they can climb up my BDs branch and bite him they have no need to. They aren’t going to climb 2+ foot along a exposed log and branch just to bite my bearded dragon when they got cover, food, mates, water and protection from the heat on the floor.
People seemed very annoyed that I only give him a proper meal once a week rather then every day. How I see it they don’t eat every day in the wild so why in captivity? It also encourages foraging behaviour as it means he is hungry and so wants to find food and so he often hunts for his crickets and is more active. But by me keeping him constantly hungry I’m being cruel. Hes not starving. Hes just hungry and so hunts for his crickets most of them time.
People where saying how if they see and animal being miss treated they are going to let that person know. Which I agree with but I find it hard to see how he is miss treated. And when they do it they can just give advice not be A holes about it. 
I really annoyed them when I said that I personally think a slim lizard is a healthy lizard. Not skinny but slim. Not fat which most seem to be on that group to me.
He is very alert and active. He dug himself a tunnel and running around right now
 
So my question is as you guys will give genuine helpful advice and not be A holes is he too skinny? He's 52cm long and about 500+ grams not sure of an exact weight.
Cheers peeps 
:2thumb:
some vids of him:
Feeding my Bearded dragon hoppers - YouTube
Bearded dragon feeding - YouTube
Bearded dragon wondering about a bit - YouTube


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## Dawson (Jun 8, 2008)

No its not enough. You should be feeding him a lot more than once a week. Greens should be readily available at all times.

How old is he?

0 - 6 months old should be fed 2 - 3 times a day for as many locusts they can eat in 15 minutes

After this I would gradually start dropping it to once a day and then for an adult beardie you can either drop this to once a day for 10 minutes or do it every other day for 15 minutes.


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Did you actually read what he does? 

I think by the sounds of it he will be fine, I love your setup and think I have a similar view to reptile keeping as you!

You may want to up it to 2 boxes of locusts a week, which he can then supplement with crickets and mealworms that he finds  

If he was really hungry he would simply hunt in the leaf litter more, I assume you can always find bugs living in it, so therefore, so can he, so he gets enough


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## Dawson (Jun 8, 2008)

kirstyhorsman said:


> Did you actually read what he does?
> 
> I think by the sounds of it he will be fine, I love your setup and think I have a similar view to reptile keeping as you!
> 
> ...


Yes I read the post very carefully and I do not agree with his method and instead of criticising or attacking him (like what happened to him on the group he joined and like what you have just done to me.) I gave my opinion. Is there something wrong with what I said?


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Dawson said:


> Yes I read the post very carefully and I do not agree with his method and instead of criticising or attacking him (like what happened to him on the group he joined and like what you have just done to me.) I gave my opinion. Is there something wrong with what I said?


Sorry it wasn't meant to sound harsh. He does offer salad all the time (at least as far as I interpret it) but instead of being in a bowl he scatters it around the viv. He then offers one tub of locusts a week, but also one of crickets and one of mealworms - he releases these into the substrate and makes sure there is plenty of food for them - but if beardie finds them then they're dinner too - if not they can get on with their lives and breeding etc.

Maybe I got confused tho - sorry again!


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

kirstyhorsman said:


> Did you actually read what he does?
> 
> I think by the sounds of it he will be fine, I love your setup and think I have a similar view to reptile keeping as you!
> 
> ...


 
I did used to give him 2 tubs but now after the one tub he ignores everything else. That started about 2 months ago and since then just stuck with the one tub a week. Some weeks he don't even eat all of the 1 tub like this week he left 2 hoppers over.
I didn't make a post about my substrate that showed some of the inverts in it. I'll look for it. 1
He really loves pill bugs : victory:


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## indigo_rock_girl (Mar 9, 2008)

I agree with Dawson he needs more locusts or bugs throughout the week  Very pretty beardie though!!


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

I remember your thread before about his setup! I knew you had a bioactive thing going on in there too


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## Dawson (Jun 8, 2008)

kirstyhorsman said:


> Sorry it wasn't meant to sound harsh. He does offer salad all the time (at least as far as I interpret it) but instead of being in a bowl he scatters it around the viv. He then offers one tub of locusts a week, but also one of crickets and one of mealworms - he releases these into the substrate and makes sure there is plenty of food for them - but if beardie finds them then they're dinner too - if not they can get on with their lives and breeding etc.
> 
> Maybe I got confused tho - sorry again!


Sometimes it is hard to gauge what others mean when it is in a written format. Maybe I reacted to you too quickly also.

maybe the op can clarify though because I am under the impression that greens are readily available so there is no problem there.

Where the confusion lies is with the live food. The impression I got was that he feeds 1 tub of hoppers a week (I guess at 10 - 15) depending on where he gets his tubs. 

After this he also offers crickets and morio worms 1- 2 times a month.

In my opinion this is not enough.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm in work and just having a quick browse so haven't read properly. I can tell by the pics alone though that he isn't underweight. He has good fat pads on his head and a nice thick tale base. I'm one that prefers slightly lean beardies as apposed to chubby ones, he has good fat reserves so anything more is simply not needed and could be a potential health risk. That's just what I think from the images I've looked at.


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Thanks for the input guys 
Basically if he would only get the morio worms and crickets 1-2 times a month I would 100% agree. But he gets them every day. I put 1-2 tubs in once a month to keep the breeding population up and give some diversity to the gene pool with in the viv. But I would argue that there is at least 1000 adults and many more hatchlings and nymphs at one time in there.

Edit: and the hopper tubs are 14 but more often 12-13 if any have died. (I take the dead ones out and gut load the others)
He normally eats them all but does sometimes only eat about 10 like this week.


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/1013281-why-do-people-have-go.html

This is the thread bout my bio active substrate


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## Fargle (Aug 8, 2013)

I would tend to agree with Tomcannon that the beardy looks happy and healthy. There is some bulk around the middle but not too much, the tail base is nice and podgy and there's not too much definition around the hips/shoulders. I think there's a tendency to overfeed animals in captivity, all kinds from fish to dogs. Just because a beardy will eat 15 locust every day I'm not sure it's exactly healthy for them to. The grazing on the greens should of course be every day due to the calorific content of 1g of greens to 1g of locust. If we try and keep them as close to nature as possible then I'd imagine for most of the year they'd be on very meager rations.


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

Your dragon is great, no need to feed more. These are ambush predators that are adapted to expending as little energy as possible. People have a tendency to make up weird rules and drastically overfeed them, which stresses their organs and causes problems later in life. Once they are at an adult size, there is absolutely no need to feed them more than you are doing.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I am going to say your bearded dragon is fine, most captive animals are fat by any and all defnitions, he looks a good weight for his size, and isn't something of an american foot ball shaped animal (like I have seen many bearded dragons look like) I think it is brilliant that your making him seek out his food, and remember, bearded dragons are naturally scavangers, they definitely do not 100% eat these vast amounts of insects in the wild, food is abundant in captivity. 

I am going to throw in the question, people are saying he "needs" to be feeding more live food? why does he need to be feeding more live food? this to me (seems to be a keeper) trying to offer a more natural life style for his dragon, it also is a good way to increase activity levels, burn off the needed calories, and offers stimulation and enrichment oppurtunity, and lets not forget this very important one (the one that this very forum is flooded with) why wont my bearded dragon eat? probably because it has A) Lost interest, B) It has became too fat to be botherd looking for food, and C) they get fed up so much that they are just not hungry, their metabolims are different to ours, but they get fed like a mammal would... this isn't how these animals evolved. 

Fat animals, are not healthy, I have seen many bearded dragons die, from excessively pumping them with insects far too often, when they hit a certain point to their life, they require a great deal more roughage in the diet than they do insects, I feed my bearded dragons insects maybe once or twice a week, and please don't give me they need (x amounts of insects every day etc) because the blood work and results I have say otherwise. 

I love these groups, if you do anything any other way to the way a reptile evolved, your somehow a horrible animal abusing git, whos starving your animal, and deserve to be banned. :whistling2:

Rant over.


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I am going to say your bearded dragon is fine, most captive animals are fat by any and all defnitions, he looks a good weight for his size, and isn't something of an american foot ball shaped animal (like I have seen many bearded dragons look like) I think it is brilliant that your making him seek out his food, and remember, bearded dragons are naturally scavangers, they definitely do not 100% eat these vast amounts of insects in the wild, food is abundant in captivity.
> 
> I am going to throw in the question, people are saying he "needs" to be feeding more live food? why does he need to be feeding more live food? this to me (seems to be a keeper) trying to offer a more natural life style for his dragon, it also is a good way to increase activity levels, burn off the needed calories, and offers stimulation and enrichment oppurtunity, and lets not forget this very important one (the one that this very forum is flooded with) why wont my bearded dragon eat? probably because it has A) Lost interest, B) It has became too fat to be botherd looking for food, and C) they get fed up so much that they are just not hungry, their metabolims are different to ours, but they get fed like a mammal would... this isn't how these animals evolved.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks :2thumb:
I have found a lot of people on the BD forums think of them as their babys (giving them doll beds and cuddly toys) lol
I think I'm just going to stick with this forum (or at least not try any BD forums) as they have a go at me for the substrate and feeding. some people even had a go at me for giving him his branches because what if he fell off? 
I said well he has a couple of times. He got up and caught a morio worm so thats what happens. I got banned after the :whistling2:
I have found that a lot of the people that have the problems are the ones that molly cuddel them just saying:whistling2:
To me they aren't kids or dogs but lizards. How I see them is they are wild animals that have lost fear of humans and to them have learned to exploit us. In my opinion reptiles don't "love" us like in the case with dogs. They know we are a food resource and too them its a purely one sided relationship. They recognise their individual person and get excited when we go near them but to me its not because they are happy to see us but know when we come so does food.
Thats how I see it and so they should be treated like wild animals. Thats my thoughts any way: victory:


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## marty5588 (Jun 6, 2013)

Beardie looks great mate. As someone said previously most beardies are miles overweight. I wish I had started my beardie off on that kind of regime, although we are very careful with his diet and certainly don't overfeed him. We've had lots of compliments about how healthy and fit he is. Carry on doing what you are doing :notworthy:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

That guy said:


> Thanks :2thumb:
> I have found a lot of people on the BD forums think of them as their babys (giving them doll beds and cuddly toys) lol
> I think I'm just going to stick with this forum (or at least not try any BD forums) as they have a go at me for the substrate and feeding. some people even had a go at me for giving him his branches because what if he fell off?
> I said well he has a couple of times. He got up and caught a morio worm so thats what happens. I got banned after the :whistling2:
> ...


You will find most of the people on the groups are on this forum, everyone is entitled to keep animals there own way, everyone has there preferences and methods, but I have found with most groups, you do it there way or take the high way, this is the attitude. 

If it works for you, then don't change a thing, husbandry is subjective and varible, and if anyone questions it, the best thing to do, is ask them for some hard factual evidence to support what they are saying. 
One thing that frustrtes me alot with groups, is you end up having to justify anything that doesn't sit with the common thought of the age, (lino tiles) substrates, scattering food around, and to me, if I share a picture, it is simply just that, unless the animal is dead or ill in that picture, then why should it have to be justified, I see neglect and sadness daily, some people wouldn't even know neglect, or the word skinny if it ran up and bite them tbh. 

Some examples. 
rescue work. | online slideshow


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> You will find most of the people on the groups are on this forum, everyone is entitled to keep animals there own way, everyone has there preferences and methods, but I have found with most groups, you do it there way or take the high way, this is the attitude.
> 
> If it works for you, then don't change a thing, husbandry is subjective and varible, and if anyone questions it, the best thing to do, is ask them for some hard factual evidence to support what they are saying.
> One thing that frustrtes me alot with groups, is you end up having to justify anything that doesn't sit with the common thought of the age, (lino tiles) substrates, scattering food around, and to me, if I share a picture, it is simply just that, unless the animal is dead or ill in that picture, then why should it have to be justified, I see neglect and sadness daily, some people wouldn't even know neglect, or the word skinny if it ran up and bite them tbh.
> ...


 
See I feel the same. As long as the animal isn't dead or dying then its just a pic and nothing more. On one of the groups I had to make a paragraph justifying it. I saved it to a word document and then would copy and paste it and add the last bit depending on what the pic is. and what was that man doing to that iguana:gasp:  
This is it: 


"
Just saying I don’t want any drama ok these are just some nice pics of my BD digging that I thought I would share.
 I am aware that there is a small chance of him getting an impaction. If you like great but if you don’t like it then go on past you don’t have to like it. And I’m not recommending it to anyone its personal choice.
 Not saying don’t comment or ask questions but if you’re going to say how much of a bad person I am or I must go onto carpet or he will die ect I can’t be asked. It looks better then carpet but most importantly he loves it and is more active and “happy” if a lizard could be happy since going from carpet to substrate
 Sorry if this offends anyone honest but all I want to do is share some pics of my BD…"


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

That guy said:


> See I feel the same. As long as the animal isn't dead or dying then its just a pic and nothing more. On one of the groups I had to make a paragraph justifying it. I saved it to a word document and then would copy and paste it and add the last bit depending on what the pic is. and what was that man doing to that iguana:gasp:
> This is it:
> 
> 
> ...


Interestingly, I did recently challange a vet after being tagged into a post and video on his handling technique of an ig, and for the situation, the technique he used, (which was grabbing it by the tail, not the tail base) and not supporting its body, isn't anything I had ever seen any vet do at all, not to mention there was another 3 perfectly reasonable less stressful restraints he could have tried, is your comment aimed at that? lol. He did message me saying I was right, and that should not have been recorded at all, still have the discussion print screend and saved which was to be posted on the group, but then I left anyways.

Your last point is exactly that, if advice hasn't been asked for, then don't give it, simple as that, its less frustrating for everyone all around, because it is insulting, it is damaging, and the best part of arguments start off that way, there is no one size fits all answer.


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Interestingly, I did recently challange a vet after being tagged into a post and video on his handling technique of an ig, and for the situation, the technique he used, (which was grabbing it by the tail, not the tail base) and not supporting its body, isn't anything I had ever seen any vet do at all, not to mention there was another 3 perfectly reasonable less stressful restraints he could have tried, is your comment aimed at that? lol. He did message me saying I was right, and that should not have been recorded at all, still have the discussion print screend and saved which was to be posted on the group, but then I left anyways.
> 
> Your last point is exactly that, if advice hasn't been asked for, then don't give it, simple as that, its less frustrating for everyone all around, because it is insulting, it is damaging, and the best part of arguments start off that way, there is no one size fits all answer.


 

Just thought it looked like a weird way of holding it on its back lol
Just used to seeing angry Igs being covered with a blanket and held at the back of the head and base of the tale but then again he is holding it that way but just flipped it over for a scan.
I'm starting to not think straight lol 
Had a cheerful day coughing up blood and now my brain is dying lol
nothing can do about it. just part of the tonsillitis.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

That guy said:


> Just thought it looked like a weird way of holding it on its back lol
> Just used to seeing angry Igs being covered with a blanket and held at the back of the head and base of the tale but then again he is holding it that way but just flipped it over for a scan.
> I'm starting to not think straight lol
> Had a cheerful day coughing up blood and now my brain is dying lol
> nothing can do about it. just part of the tonsillitis.


It is a restraint used to confuse the heck out of an ig, tbh with you, towels etc shouldn't be needed if its done properly and they are approached correctly, I think the ig in question was on his back for having some bloods took, but it is a safe way to trim claws and adminster treatments needles etc if needed too, it pretty much puts them into a trance if you do it right, but I wouldn't advise anyone to try it willy nilly, its not without its risks and they can only be kept that way for certain periods of time. : victory:


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> It is a restraint used to confuse the heck out of an ig, tbh with you, towels etc shouldn't be needed if its done properly and they are approached correctly, I think the ig in question was on his back for having some bloods took, but it is a safe way to trim claws and adminster treatments needles etc if needed too, it pretty much puts them into a trance if you do it right, but I wouldn't advise anyone to try it willy nilly, its not without its risks and they can only be kept that way for certain periods of time. : victory:


Didn't know it put them into a trance:notworthy:

So what happens if they stay in it too long?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

That guy said:


> Didn't know it put them into a trance:notworthy:
> 
> So what happens if they stay in it too long?


some things are probably better off not being posted in public, the trick is to do it right in the first place. : victory:


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> some things are probably better off not being posted in public, the trick is to do it right in the first place. : victory:


 
Ok... :gasp: : victory:


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## marty5588 (Jun 6, 2013)

Messaged earlier to say I loved the set up, and I do. The only thing that would concern me is the question of poo. With the leaves as a substrate cleaning poo must be very difficult. Also if crickets or motion worms are in the substrate would they not feed on any poo left behind? Not knocking you just making a point.


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## Khonsu (May 20, 2009)

First off I'm not a BD keeper but I have kept lizards & snakes for quite a few years & seen to many BD's (not a fan myself) however if that BD's skinny then most others are positively obese, looks healthy & active to me in a set up that, thank fcuk, doesn't rely on lino or tiles as a substrate, you know, that well known covering you find in the desert.


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

marty5588 said:


> Messaged earlier to say I loved the set up, and I do. The only thing that would concern me is the question of poo. With the leaves as a substrate cleaning poo must be very difficult. Also if crickets or motion worms are in the substrate would they not feed on any poo left behind? Not knocking you just making a point.


 
See why can’t people on BD forums be like that?!:no1:
I say to them if you have questions feel free to ask. I just get messages like “You must change to carpet” “your killing your lizard” “you should give him to someone that knows what they are doing” ect
Well as you know if you keep BDs their poo is very smelly:gasp: so its easy to find. Then I just put my gloves on and scoop it up and a little of the surrounding substrate and throw it away. Anything left behind is stuff that may have soaked through so the cricket’s and stuff can’t get it and that’s where the spring tails and isopods come it. they clean up anything I miss and that’s all there is. I may look hard but is actually piss easy to maintain.: victory:
If you have a question ask and don’t worry about annoying me. : victory: Questions don’t annoy me and actually I like them.:no1: I like talking about it and stuff. Its just yelling at me because I’m clearly 100% wrong and there is now way you can be bothered to think about it is what I don’t like.
 :bash:


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Khonsu said:


> First off I'm not a BD keeper but I have kept lizards & snakes for quite a few years & seen to many BD's (not a fan myself) however if that BD's skinny then most others are positively obese, looks healthy & active to me in a set up that, thank fcuk, doesn't rely on lino or tiles as a substrate, you know, that well known covering you find in the desert.


:lol2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Khonsu said:


> First off I'm not a BD keeper but I have kept lizards & snakes for quite a few years & seen to many BD's (not a fan myself) however if that BD's skinny then most others are positively obese, looks healthy & active to me in a set up that, thank fcuk, doesn't rely on lino or tiles as a substrate, you know, that well known covering you find in the desert.


I am suprised you don't keep beardies mate, you have just about everything else, especially those blue tongues I met, those were stunning. : victory:


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## jarich (Mar 23, 2012)

marty5588 said:


> Messaged earlier to say I loved the set up, and I do. The only thing that would concern me is the question of poo. With the leaves as a substrate cleaning poo must be very difficult. Also if crickets or motion worms are in the substrate would they not feed on any poo left behind? Not knocking you just making a point.


Actually one of the major reasons for having a bioactive substrate is so that the wastes are taken care of and incorporated. The crickets will feed on the greens that are left around the enclosure, generally speaking, and not wastes from your dragon. However, the soil will have a natural biological cycle that deals with the wastes. Things like nematodes, isopods, worms and bacteria (yes, there are good ones  ) will get to work on the wastes right away and break them down. Its how it works in nature with the nitrogen cycle too. You have to worry about those wastes when you just use things like tile or carpet because there are no biological systems to handle it, leading to a proliferation of bad bacteria, etc. In those situations, you are using chemicals to create a temporarily sterile environment instead of allowing a natural cycle to work for you. To my knowledge, that has always been shown to be a poor substitute. 

And by the way Thatguy, you do not run the risk of impaction for your dragon because you are using a moist soil substrate in a large enclosure. Impactions are generally caused by unhealthy, dehydrated animals or by animals unable to move enough to aid in the movement of materials through the bowels (either due to inactivity or small enclosure size). Your dragon in his burrow has the opportunity to regulate his moisture levels to keep from being dehydrated, and since he is regularly scavenging around the enclosure, he seems to get a good amount of movement too (unlike the fat sloths most people have)


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## That guy (Jul 22, 2013)

Thought I would share.

Managed to film him in his tunnel 
Bearded dragon looking out of his hole - YouTube


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

That guy said:


> Thought I would share.
> 
> Managed to film him in his tunnel
> Bearded dragon looking out of his hole - YouTube


Love it. :2thumb:


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## Fizz (Jan 18, 2014)

I haven't read all of the comments but your beardie looks lovely, he appears happy and healthy and wow those colours .... 

On another note I haven't been around for long on this forum but have found people here really helpful and friendly


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