# StripeXStripe corn snakes



## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

Heres a spanner in the works I think.Can onyone help.In 2007 I paired an amel stripe male to an anery stripe female corn snake.There first time breeding.There was no other male with the female.The anery female I bred myself.She was 1 of 3 anery stripes in the clutch.The rest of the clutch where normal corns and a few snows.The parents of the anery stripe where a normal female to a snow male.The amel stripe I paired up with the anery stripe I bought him as a hatchling.So here it is.The amel stripe and anery stripe female produced 12 hatchlings in 2007.1 hatchling was a normal stripe.I got 4 amels and the rest of the hatchlings where normal looking corns.Im not great on the genetics,but I was told this could not happen.Heres pics of mother,father and the only stripe they produced in the clutch.







This is the amel male







this is the female the anery stripe.








this is there 2007 hatchling.The only stripe produced out of a clutch of 12.


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

In my opinion, your female anery "stripe" is actually an anery motley (striped form) and not a true stripe. She`s obviously het for stripe hence producing the striped baby with the striped male.: victory:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

There's something about the Anery's "stripe" pattern that makes me think she's actually NOT a genetic stripe at all. If that's the case, it explains why you only got one striped hatchling - she's het for stripe, but not homozygous.

She looks more like a very unusual "Aztec" (especially near the tail) - though the pattern is also a bit like striped/dot-dash California kingsnake. You said the parents of the Anery were a snow and a normal - were they related, and is there ANY chance there might be "jungle" corn in that mix?

Obviously, because you've gotten a genuine visual stripe hatchling, the female must be HET for stripe... but I'm betting she's not homozygous cornsnake stripe.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> In my opinion, your female anery "stripe" is actually an anery motley (striped form) and not a true stripe. She`s obviously het for stripe hence producing the striped baby with the striped male.: victory:


Anery Motley would have produced 100% motley babies when put to a Stripe, though....

Were the "normal" not-striped babies clear-bellied?


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## captaincaveman (Nov 6, 2006)

Ssthisto said:


> Were the "normal" not-striped babies clear-bellied?


 
thats the question needed, cause you'd expect some motleys there somewhere in a certain number:no1:


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

Maybe one of the snakes was a hybrid then??


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## spirit975 (May 15, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Anery Motley would have produced 100% motley babies when put to a Stripe, though....
> 
> Were the "normal" not-striped babies clear-bellied?


Ohh right, so if a motley was put to a stripe, the babies would be motley? Even if the stripe wasn`t het? Interesting:lol2: I knew the 2 patterns were from the same gene (or something like that) just didn`t realise they were that closely connected:whistling2:


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

spirit975 said:


> Ohh right, so if a motley was put to a stripe, the babies would be motley? Even if the stripe wasn`t het? Interesting:lol2: I knew the 2 patterns were from the same gene (or something like that) just didn`t realise they were that closely connected:whistling2:


Motley is dominant to stripe on the same gene pair.

A Motley het Stripe will look like a visual motley (which may display banded, hurricane/circleback, q-tipped or even ribbon/zipper patterning) - there's no guarantee a motley het stripe will show the 'striped motley' pattern. Here, though, if it IS a motley het stripe (and I have my doubts - it looks like a reverse image, patternwise, of my striped Cali King) ... it's an amazingly ribbony one!

And it's not possible to get a true four-lined stripe animal who is het motley.

If you cross a homozygous motley (which this isn't) to a homozygous stripe, you will get 100% Motley het Stripe offspring. Which, as I said, can look like ANY of the motley patterns, not just Ribbon/Zipper.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

Thanks for the replies and info.Some is very deep for me.Its like talking a different language.I wouldnt be that advanced when it comes to genetics.I have the mother of the anery female,I dont know what to call her now.The mother is a normal.The father is a snow and he was a cracker.I sold him on about 2 months now.I done a little out crossing last year and I got loads of snows without a snow to snow breeding.I dont have a pic of the snow but he looked like a usual snow.I have a pic of the anery stripe female.She is the biggest normal corn in the pic.








I was holding a normal brother to the stripe 2007 hatchling.He just looks like a regular normal corn snake with checkered patterns on his belly.I held back a sister to the 2007 stripe hatchling.She is an amel,she is shedding so when she is finnished I will be able to see her belly patterns better.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

I was going through some old photos on the pc.I found some of the snow corn that was bred to the normal female to get the anery stripe female.
I have to up load them to photobucket.I will have them in a few mins.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well... Mum looks like a pretty normal corn snake, really. I don't see anything that looks amazingly like kingsnake markers on her. If the stripe hatchling has a normal sibling with normal belly checkers... then genetically there really is something weird going on there. It means that either another male HAD to have gotten to your female and bred her... or your female does not carry cornsnake Motley, is het for cornsnake Stripe... and her pattern is due to something else.

Which makes me think that the snow "corn" might have been a snow Kingsnake hybrid... Can you get a closer photo of the Anery "stripe" female's head?


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

Heres the snow corn I bred with the normal female to get the anery stripe looking corn snake.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Curiouser and curiouser. He looks very much like a 100% corn too - again, nothing in his head or pattern says anything other than rat snake. Which means your female is a very nice motley het stripe (it'd be interesting to know what might happen if you breed your amel stripe male to the anery's mother... if she's the het stripe, you'll get half normals and half stripes on average; if she's the het motley you'll get half normals and half motley het stripes on average.)

Which leaves only one possibility. Your stripe male is only DEFINITELY the father of the stripe hatchling; any hatchlings with belly checkers MUST have been sired by another male.

Can I ask if your anery female is housed regularly with other corns (like the photo with her and two others in it) ? Have all the animals she's been housed with been witnessed laying eggs?

If she is housed with other corns or temporarily put into tubs with other corns... I'd get the other corns she's been in contact with probed. One of them's GOT to have hemipenes


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

Just takeing some head shots, just putting them on my pc.There does look something in her.She was small as a hatchling.I was thinking she had a bit of a pin head.She is coming into shedding.Then I noticed she has a checkered belly pattern.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If she has a checkered belly, she's neither motley nor stripe. She's obviously HET stripe (she produced a stripe hatchling) ... but she can't be motley or stripe if she has belly checkers.

Which makes me swing back to my original assumption - that she's an absolutely BRILLIANT Anery Aztec. Or that she's got a pattern throwback to having kingsnake genes somewhere back in the woodpile, far enough back that it didn't show in her parents.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

All my corns are housed individually.The reason the 3 females all proven as they have laid eggs for me.I was disenffecting there tubs.I had family members helping.So we did 3 tubs at a time.It was the anery stripe first year 2007 breeding she was never with any other males.My very first corn snakes to breed and the only pair at the time was my normal female to the snow male that produced the anery stripe.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

I tell ya this snake stuff is brilliant.All your knowledge you have some brain.Great stuff.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

Finally I have the head shots and belly shots.













































You can see her head is a little different.I thought she had a bit of a pin head as she was very small for a hatchling.


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

Ssthisto said:


> There's something about the Anery's "stripe" pattern that makes me think she's actually NOT a genetic stripe at all. If that's the case, it explains why you only got one striped hatchling - she's het for stripe, but not homozygous.
> 
> She looks more like a very unusual "Aztec" (especially near the tail) - though the pattern is also a bit like striped/dot-dash California kingsnake. You said the parents of the Anery were a snow and a normal - were they related, and is there ANY chance there might be "jungle" corn in that mix?
> 
> Obviously, because you've gotten a genuine visual stripe hatchling, the female must be HET for stripe... but I'm betting she's not homozygous cornsnake stripe.


yeah i was thinking exactly this.. stunning anert tho


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

The belly is chequered.. there is no motley or stripe in that snake.. all genetic stripes/motleys have a blank belly.. but it's a stunning example of aztec I suppose?


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## cornmorphs (Jan 28, 2005)

ah sorry i replied before i saw those belly shots..


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

That is an EXTRAORDINARY snake, ESB1....

I don't know how two parents that LOOK like pure corn snakes (and to me, they do) can throw something that looks so much like my Mexican Black Kingsnake except for the Anerythristic paintjob. Short, broad head with eyes closer to the front of the muzzle, that weird dot-dash striped pattern on top of the belly checkers...

You've got yourself the EXACT reason why I have an objection to selling hybrids without absolute crystal clear labelling - and an absolute objection to selling hybrids that do not clearly look like hybrids and NOT like either parent species.

There is no doubt in my mind that that animal has kingsnake blood and I would have said it looks like it's a 50/50 king if not 75/25 king/corn... if I hadn't seen those parent animals. Those parents wouldn't make me look twice or question their corn heritage, but to throw a hatchling like that... they've GOT to be jungles.

She's never tried to EAT any other snake, has she?


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

No she was tiny when she hatched out.It took me a while to get her started.My very first 2 corns she poped out of.They where my only corns at the time.The few years I have her I never noticed her belly patterns.Well Im still learning and the belly didnt look unusual to my inexperience.Her head was tiny and looked a funny shape when she was tiny.What title do I give her now.What do I call her son the normal male 2007 stripe hatchling.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

If she was mine, and her hatchlings were mine, I'd be labelling every single hatchling as a "Jungle" hybrid animal. The little stripe would be a "Jungle Stripe Hybrid". 

Her head's still a very, very peculiar shape for a cornsnake, even now. It looks exactly like my Mexi Black's head in terms of shape and the overall scale 'look'. Does she feel like your other corns, scale-wise - particularly the scales along her back?


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

I was feeling her scales there, they feel similar to other corns.I might have to waith till she sheds to feel the scales properly.She is a bit blue eyed at the min.Thanks for helping me get to the bottom of this.There was plenty of learning for me thanks.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

She's a really unique animal and a real curiosity too... it'd be interesting to see how she looks when she's shed.

Do you see the similarities in pattern on her and this striped Cali king?

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/lgcaliforniaenlbbhubbs05.jpg

I actually thought "Cali Stripe" because I've got an amelanistic Cali who's got a very similar pattern - will have to get a photo of her when she's not flicking poo everywhere.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

You can see some similarities. She is a realy placid great natured snake,right from when she hatched out.The kids picked her out,because of the stripes.When you asked for head shots and I zoomed in with the camera you could see something else was going on.Some people where baffled to how I only got 1 stripe hatchling from her.Now we know.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

I ment to ask you what breeding projects would you reckomend with your experience.What would be the best type of males I could breed with her.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

Well... to be honest, on the basis that she's a hybrid kingsnake, if you ever did breed her again I wouldn't breed her to anything but another hybrid kingsnake/corn and VERY clearly label her offspring as hybrid *kingsnakes*. Obviously she's heterozygous for cornsnake stripe; the problem arises that, other than being Anerythristic, she looks very, very kingsnake indeed. I wouldn't call her a corn at all, and I wouldn't breed her like one.

If she were mine, I'd probably keep her as a curiosity and a pet - but probably not breed her. That's because I don't think it's right to release hybrid animals into the gene pool that look too much like one parent species or the other... you thought you had two corn snakes who LOOKED like corn snakes, bred them together, and got something that very clearly isn't a corn snake.

Speaking of the parent animals... is there any way I could see a photo of the mother of the anery striped-looking girl - specifically a good closeup of her head? I'm wondering if she's got any clues that weren't immediately obvious from the group shot.


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## SCI (Feb 28, 2006)

Mate to be honenist that's why I said there what be no chance of them
two snakes producing anything else other that mots.Who would
of had any idea that if you turned that snake over it would have belly checkers? Thats amazing.:mf_dribble:


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## paulh (Sep 19, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> Do you see the similarities in pattern on her and this striped Cali king?
> 
> http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/lgcaliforniaenlbbhubbs05.jpg


The pattern genes in Cal kings are a mess. As far as I know, there are several, but the genetics mostly have not been worked out. The snake in the link looks like what Richard Zweifel called Long Beach pattern in his paper in the Journal of Heredity back in '81 (Journal of Heredity -- Sign In Page)

Zweifel's striped mutant gene seems to be a dominant.

Just to muddy the waters a little bit more, I have heard that some people have crossed corns and yellow rat snakes. However, yellows are blotched for their first year or so.

It would be worth checking the anal scute, too. Kings have an undivided anal while rat snakes have a divided anal. After a couple of generations crossing with corns, I'd expect a divided anal, but the unexpected can happen.

I don't know what that snake is, but the discussion is interesting.


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## Daredevil (Jul 10, 2007)

It is a stunning looking snake, but i agree with just keeping it purely as a pet and not as a breeder/pet!!:no1:


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

Sorry I got a call last night and had to leg it before I got the head shots up of the mother of the anery stripe.


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## Paul Chase (Mar 7, 2007)

Sorry but i can not see any hybred in any of the pics, to me they look 100% corn.
I think the same as athravan that the anery stripe is actually an aztec or zig-zag, that must be het stripe (that is as long as the normal stripe has a clear belly). Zig-zag is a weard pattern, that you only need one parent to have to produce zig-zag babies


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

The 2007 normal stripe hatchling has a clear belly.


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## Ssthisto (Aug 31, 2006)

butter morph said:


> Sorry but i can not see any hybred in any of the pics, to me they look 100% corn.


I don't know if you've seen the photos of the head of the Anery "stripe" animal, but... I don't know how you can say that this head looks 100% cornsnake:










The pattern ALSO looks very much like the stripe pattern found in California kingsnakes. Wide stripes on the back, keytooth notches in the side stripes...



> I think the same as athravan that the anery stripe is actually an aztec or zig-zag, that must be het stripe (that is as long as the normal stripe has a clear belly). Zig-zag is a weard pattern, that you only need one parent to have to produce zig-zag babies


Neither parent animal has zig-zag patterning. The parents are an apparently normal-looking snow and an apparently normal-looking normal.


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## Paul Chase (Mar 7, 2007)

Ssthisto said:


> I don't know if you've seen the photos of the head of the Anery "stripe" animal, but... I don't know how you can say that this head looks 100% cornsnake:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can see what you are saying about the dorsal pattern looking like a caliking, but some corns have the same wide striping especially on some of the more abberant aztecs. Plus the aztec pettern can miss a generation or two, so parents dont nessesary need to have the aztec pattern.
The neck is not king snake looking as it has a much narrower neck like a cornsnake, not a continuous head neck.
A big breeder that lives near to me (probably one of the first big breeders of snakes in the uk) hatched some corns that had stunted noses like that. They were from imported wild caught grandparents. They were smaller than the rest of the clutch, he put it down to incubation problems.
Having said that though there is always a possability you may be right, as there several hybeds out there now :whip:. The trouble now is it would be very difficult to prove other wise, as it may be so far removed from king snake to breed with one without tricking them into breeding (which i think is very wrong any ways). So ssthisto is probably right that the babies should be labled as poss hybred.


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## mcelheronreptiles (Jun 13, 2006)

your original normal corn was deffo 100% corn!
absolutely no kingsnake gene there.
it's grand parents were a ghost female and a
striped male if i remember correctly!!
one of the parents was a motley if i remember
correctly. i have no history of your snow as it 
wasn't from my group. hope this helps.


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## esb1 (Aug 6, 2007)

*corns*

Thanks for the extra info.I have some of the morphs ther in my collection that is in the normal female.I can pair her up this year with a few different options in mind.


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