# DOAs, how to handle sensitively



## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Hi guys

I was wondering if you lot had any thoughts in general on this subject, just so I can get a feel towards what's expected of either party in this kind of situation. 

Recently I bought an AF B. smithi on here. Seller insisted on gift payment but because PP no longer allow me to pay the charges I believed that was why - I appreciate this was a big mistake now.

The spider arrived dead. I took comprehensive photos and got some advice on how to approach things sensitively so as not to make the situation worse but before I even mentioned a refund I was accused by the seller of switching his live tarantula for a dead one. He has since stopped replying after refusing to refund. 

I don't expect to get my money back as I believe his over-reaction tells me it's already been spent. I have since had others approach me that in at least one specific and verifiable case he's done similar, this time selling a P. regalis/hybrid male as a confirmed female miranda and likewise refused to refund. Others have said they knew him to be dodgy but I didn't take that too seriously without specific evidence.

Anyway, that's just the background not why I posted. My issue is now this, feedback. If I give negative feedback others will know and possibly this could prevent others getting stung. However if I leave feedback he could decide to reciprocate unfairly and publicly state his fairly daft accusation of dead stooge doubles. I doubt many would believe it but even so, others don't necessarily investigate beyond the red mark. Mods have been absolutely great on this but due to forum rules would not remove any feedback he chooses to leave me unless we both request it, and then they would remove mine too to be fair. This means I am now questioning whether I should leave feedback at all.

I'd really appreciate your general thoughts on this, but don't intend this as having a go at the seller. If he reads this I am still open to sorting this out amicably, as I always was, and he could then get positive feedback still.

Thanks

Kathy


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## ChelsNLuke (Jun 23, 2012)

Could you PM me the sellers name??
i just boughht a T off someone on here, hopefully not the same guy!!

Sorry to hear about your troubles =[


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

This one is a difficult one, as a seller, personally I have always refunded. If I've sold it as female and it hooks out, and DOA (although I've only had 2 that I know of) I always refund the customer. The risk of someone saying its dead and its not is always there so if you don't want that risk then don't post just do pick up only.

As a buyer, first question Kathy, is how was it packed? Can you tell us about the outer box, wadding, inner tub, spider wrapping and heat pack.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks Luke. I've got to be honest, this feedback issue (and the Pauline Wallace feedback issue) have put me off using the forum classifieds unless I know the seller. Anyone could have 100% positive feedback if people daren't leave negative for fear of reprisal. I do get why the rules are as they are but I would urge people to ignore peoples' feedback scores when buying and look into each seller as if feedback didn't exist. Also any good seller would factor in Paypal charges and noone decent buying would baulk at having to pay an extra couple of quid to pay as goods/services. Not sure it makes much difference from the mixed accounts I've heard about PP claims under the same circumstances, but I should've insisted on paying extra and putting it through as goods.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Sylvi, thanks for the reply, I really appreciate your thoughts.

Before the parcel even arrived I had a joky message off the seller saying I'd better have a sharp knife ready. When it arrived it became clear why - the box was entirely coated 3 times with no gaps in duct tape. No holes, no breaks in it. I do not know if that is relevant.

Inside the outer box was packaged very well although there was no heatpack (it was very cold here that night but I understand some sellers won't be using them now) and the tub the spider was actually in was not particularly well stuffed with tissue. There was a thin wet layer underneath the T and one piece of tissue above her. The tub was barely deeper than the spider's abdomen and there was no tissue packed in around her. However, she showed no signs of injury externally, although she had kicked all the hair off her abdomen.

xx


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Just to add:

If a seller had very blatantly accused you of faking the death and twice refused refund before it was even mentioned, would you send the T back at your cost? I chose not to as I felt I wasn't going to get a refund anyway and he had said he could prove it wasn't his T, so I didn't feel sending a decomposing spider back would bring about a resolution and would only serve to add to my financial loss. Had he said "Oh crap, I'm so sorry, send her back and we will sort it out" I wouldn't have hesitated to, even if he said he had spent the money and couldn't afford to pay me back. Is sending them back the done thing?


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## herper147 (Feb 7, 2009)

I wouldn't bother sending it back, its only going to be more costs to you and he clearly doesn't care by the sounds of it. Its time s like this when naming and shaming could come in handy, but I would go ahead and leave terrible feedback. If he posts back I doubt it would affect you since you have nearly 10k posts and plenty of other good feedback 

I never really understood the whole gifting money thing, doesn't it only take £1 or something like that? I would happily pay £42 for example instead of gifting £40


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Sylvi, thanks for the reply, I really appreciate your thoughts.
> 
> Before the parcel even arrived I had a joky message off the seller saying I'd better have a sharp knife ready. When it arrived it became clear why - the box was entirely coated 3 times with no gaps in duct tape. No holes, no breaks in it. I do not know if that is relevant.
> 
> ...


 
I just knew you were going to say that. No heat pack. It may be warm indoors and it may be warm during the day, but it is still too cold at night to be posting spiders without heat packs in my opinion. The Brachypelma species are heat loving and of all spiders there is no way I would have sent one out without a pack. In my opinion the seller is at fault here, I would contact them again and explain that you would like a refund, that you paid for correct post and packaging, and that you will give negative feedback and it will contain a link in it to this thread explaining the situation.

If he has already spent the money then you want a spider of the same value to replace it from his collection. As a seller I always leave the money where it is until the spider has arrived and the buyer reports back that they are happy with the transaction.

You don't need to name the guy, if you bought it from this forum there aren't that many adult female B smithis in the classifieds. We'll all work out who it is.

xxx


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Hi Sylvi

Thanks for the response. 

I have to admit I am nervous about chasing him on this as 1. it could make things worse if he is already dealing with the mods and 2. I was in a real state after his last 2 messages. I really wanted to keep communication very open and not pressured and there were/are extenuating circumstances on my part that have me a bit emotionally fragile on this subject. First and foremost this smithi was a gift to my daughter who looks after the animals with me and has her own small wishlist, B. smithi was on that. She was the victim of a minor sexual assault and had broken down and told me and then had to go through the police etc. On top of that some of her 'friends' found out and have been bullying her terribly. I really wanted the smithi to break a smile out of her, wouldn't fix the rest but it was well intended anyway. To open the box with her and find a dead spider was upsetting. These things happen though and so I was very careful in my approach to him about it. However I'm likely to lose my head if I get another response saying we've attempted to deceive him out of money when we are £42+£8 p&p down.


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## Sylvi (Dec 30, 2008)

Thats such a shame for your daughter, she must be very dissapointed. It was a beautiful spider too ( very easy to find thread), looks like its curling a bit though.....or is it my dodgy eyesight?


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Lots of folks have said the same Sylvi so it's not your eyes. With the photo being taken from above I didn't think anything of it, just thought it was the angle (and it could have just been the angle, I'll leave it to each of you to decide on that one). Thank you for your supportive messages xxxx


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## Spideypidey (Jan 23, 2014)

Let's face it, when we buy a living anything we expect it to be alive on arrival and we expect it to stay alive for a reasonable amount of time if properly cared for. But at the same time we should expect to return the dead creature to the seller. Sellers should not need to provide a guarantee and should just do what's right. But if sellers don't do that then others should know about it without the threat of intimidation over bad return feedback. That was precisely the reason why ebay removed the possibility of leaving bad feedback for buyers who had paid.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I would be fine sending a spider back would I not be even more out of pocket for doing so (I would've felt differently had his response been more sympathetic or helpful). In this particular situation it was clear he was accusing me of fraud and as such I knew my money was already spent. If he had the money to refund he wouldn't have thought to make up a bonkers reason for not paying, like people have a dead example of the exact size and specoes of T lying around the house to rip people off lol. I also had a fairly quick response from someone telling me they had been refused a refund by the same seller so I had no confidence in sending it back just to add to what I was down on. We're not well off enough to pee £58 into the wind sadly and he's already got £50 of that and bullied me out of the refund.


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## PeterUK (Jun 21, 2008)

I really cant see why you are bothered or worried about negative feed back from the douche bag. 
Personally, I would be shouting the tossers name out on every FB group and passing his/her name to everyone and his dog if they messaged me asking for it.
I wouldnt be surprised if the douche is relying on exactly your reaction so that no bad reviews are made. 
As you know this hobby is a small one and everyone knows everyone after a short while in it. 
Word will soon spread when the details get out and if a few people are saying the same thing about the same person . . . . :whistling2:


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

The seller is bang out of order a parasite who by two counts that I know of has conned people out of money ( proven ) & yet I bet he is laughing now. Yes Mr I know who you are and with the OP'S permission I will let others know via non forum means tell anyone who wants to know who the seller is .


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## Amber (Jun 11, 2006)

Its hard as a seller to trust buyers in general, since there are those out there that will try to scam you. However it seems you did everything right, if someone sent me a dated photo of a dead spider I'd refund, anyone that wouldn't should get bad feedback for sure!


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## snowgoose (May 5, 2009)

The feedback system is here for a reason and that's to use it. You may have this thread etc but who is going to hunt out separate threads about sellers when feedback says 100%?

As a business I have to do things slightly differently as I have regulations to follow, but as a private seller I'd give refund as long as I'm notified within 24hrs of the parcel being received.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

The feedback system here is not safe for buyers to give honest feedback without getting given negative feedback in return, lovely as the mods have been they're not protecting me or anyone else from that and I don't particularly wish to have my feedback state I'm a fraud when I've done nothing wrong, so I can't leave it can I? As someone who totally fulfilled their side of the 'deal' it puts me off leaving any as I will no doubt get it in return despite having done nothing wrong. Ebay changed the way theirs worked for this reason, people were not leaving negative feedback because if they did they got abuse back on theirs. If Pauline Wallace has 100% feedback then that is one thing (not right in any shape or form but explained by the rules), but this experience has taught me that the feedback system here is totally skewed. Anyone with 100% feedback could be doing the same as this man has to two people already.

ETA: When buyers are protected in giving honest feedback (eg. after the mods have kindly investigated and if they would rethink the protocol of only removing when both parties agree and then removing the buyer's feedback as well) then I will be happy to. As it stands the forum is not responsible for sales on their boards, and it's too much involvement for them to step into every case like this, which is why I would say that feedback here means nothing, I don't see the point in it at all.


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

KathyM said:


> The feedback system here is not safe for buyers to give honest feedback without getting given negative feedback in return, lovely as the mods have been they're not protecting me or anyone else from that and I don't particularly wish to have my feedback state I'm a fraud when I've done nothing wrong, so I can't leave it can I? As someone who totally fulfilled their side of the 'deal' it puts me off leaving any as I will no doubt get it in return despite having done nothing wrong. Ebay changed the way theirs worked for this reason, people were not leaving negative feedback because if they did they got abuse back on theirs. If Pauline Wallace has 100% feedback then that is one thing (not right in any shape or form but explained by the rules), but this experience has taught me that the feedback system here is totally skewed. Anyone with 100% feedback could be doing the same as this man has to two people already.
> 
> ETA: When buyers are protected in giving honest feedback (eg. after the mods have kindly investigated and if they would rethink the protocol of only removing when both parties agree and then removing the buyer's feedback as well) then I will be happy to. As it stands the forum is not responsible for sales on their boards, and it's too much involvement for them to step into every case like this, which is why I would say that feedback here means nothing, I don't see the point in it at all.


I'd have to agree
The feedback system protects scammers and does not protect the buyers. So what the hell is it there for ?? because the way I see it its RUBBISH and needs a BIG overhaul.


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

jaybott said:


> I'd have to agree
> The feedback system protects scammers and does not protect the buyers. So what the hell is it there for ?? because the way I see it its RUBBISH and needs a BIG overhaul.


People could also stop sending money via gift to strangers like has been said 11 billion times. 

Perfect feedback system or not, that to me seems basic sense. Guess it boils down to how much you like gambling money after that.


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

GRB said:


> People could also stop sending money via gift to strangers like has been said 11 billion times.
> 
> Perfect feedback system or not, that to me seems basic sense. Guess it boils down to how much you like gambling money after that.


No need to quote me was there and did I once mention anything about how payment should be made NO I think not GRB. 
As a side note I would never pay via gift.


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## martin3 (May 24, 2011)

Your an argumentative so & so aren't you....:bash:


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

martin3 said:


> Your an argumentative so & so aren't you....:bash:


And you can keep you're opinion to yourself :welcome:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

jaybott said:


> No need to quote me was there and did I once mention anything about how payment should be made NO I think not GRB.
> As a side note I would never pay via gift.


You'll notice I added "also" in the first sentence, implying that I agreed with at least some of your sentiments. The reason it was quoted was to avoid the need to repeat your point and make my sentence more clearly run on from that. 

Last I checked quoting someone wasn't an insult, but if you want to be offended go for it.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

GRB said:


> People could also stop sending money via gift to strangers like has been said 11 billion times.
> 
> Perfect feedback system or not, that to me seems basic sense. Guess it boils down to how much you like gambling money after that.


I admit my mistake there but after discussing things with others Paypal wouldn't protect against DOA regardless of which you use. They would protect against items not arriving.

There are two reasons why I accepted the seller's request for gift payment. The first was that he was clear in his insistence and the second was that Paypal no longer allow the buyer to absorb the fees, and I believed that's why he was insisting. I shouldn't have done it and I have to accept I won't be getting my money back, but money was not the reason I posted this thread xx


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I also have to say that I have not been witness to the 11 billion times and have often been requested by nice people to pay gift for the same reason, right or wrong. Complacent? Yes totally. Idiotic, yep. Gambling? No I didn't think so, now my view is different. I don't think the method had much to do with this unless you believe he purposefully sent me a dead spider, which unless you're privy to more information than me, I do not. It does beg the question as to why sellers are allowed to publicly state gift only on ads on here if the mods believe that is an easy sign of a scam, not that I am for one second not accepting responsibility for my stupidity. I do hope that the mods are still investigating and not writing it off as fair game for that reason xx


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I also have to say that I have not been witness to the 11 billion times and have often been requested by nice people to pay gift for the same reason, right or wrong.
> 
> It's mentioned in every sales sticky in every sale subforum, or at least it was.
> 
> ...


I don't know as I'm no longer involved with that side of things. There's probably not much to investigate other than sending you both pms and try to figure out the story. 

Just another point to remember, most people do not discuss what to do if a DOA does occur. I used to state on my adverts "Postage is at risk of the buyer". Technically I guess that was in breach of distance selling regulations, but it gets fuzzy with private sales and such. 

Basically, I just buy from shops because I've seen too much hassle here with forum purchases and I simply don't care about saving £5 or so on the odd spider. I'd rather pay a little extra and get something, than save a few quid for potentially nothing. Much better for me to simply buy from TSS, if one dies I know Lee will offer replacement or store credit. 

If someone insists on gift payment, walk away. There'll always be another spider.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks GRB, I can't say I disagree on amything you've said there and thanks for explaining in more depth. xx


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## DodgemGreaser (Nov 7, 2013)

So who is the seller?


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## lazaru (Jan 18, 2011)

I wishi had seen this thread a couple of weeks ago as I bought a couple of slings from tss 
My first time ordering from there and the Augacephalus ezendami was doa , all the others were fine and doing really well
I didnt do anything about it just put it down to one of those things , I wish I had of now as it didnt occur to me at the time that I could do something about it 
it has put me off ordering again from there which is stupid really as I bet they would of replaced it for me .
you learn by your mistakes 
so thanks for the info in this thread .


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

any seller which insists on Gift Payments, should be view with suspicion and caution imo, its a pretty big alarm bell, as you have no recourse via paypal in the event that the person is dishonest...and you can be sure that is one of the reasons they insist on it in the first place.

If someone is unwilling to share their private information with you, and refuses to accept payment in a transparent fashion, then save your money and tell them to jump off a bridge.

doesnt resolve your situation now unfortunately, but for future reference


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

DodgemGreaser said:


> So who is the seller?


Not difficult to find. I'm bound by the rules not to name and shame but the ad is still up, a £42 AF smithi isn't hard to find.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

lazaru said:


> I wishi had seen this thread a couple of weeks ago as I bought a couple of slings from tss
> My first time ordering from there and the Augacephalus ezendami was doa , all the others were fine and doing really well
> I didnt do anything about it just put it down to one of those things , I wish I had of now as it didnt occur to me at the time that I could do something about it
> it has put me off ordering again from there which is stupid really as I bet they would of replaced it for me .
> ...


I am absolutely sure Lee at TSS would've sorted it out for you, although like you said it might be too late now. I'm so sorry you had one turn up dead. I should say that DOAs are an inevitable risk of sending by post, these things do happen and don't in themselves make a seller bad. xxx


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

CloudForest said:


> any seller which insists on Gift Payments, should be view with suspicion and caution imo, its a pretty big alarm bell, as you have no recourse via paypal in the event that the person is dishonest...and you can be sure that is one of the reasons they insist on it in the first place.
> 
> If someone is unwilling to share their private information with you, and refuses to accept payment in a transparent fashion, then save your money and tell them to jump off a bridge.
> 
> doesnt resolve your situation now unfortunately, but for future reference



Like I've said enough now, I know my mistake in paying by gift, the 100% feedback that I now know is skewed played a part in it as did PPs change to who pays the fees. I do have his private information, his full name, address, etc. I just don't choose to break the rules and share it on here. Believe me, much of it has been shared elswhere (although obviously not his address). He is well known, sadly wasn't to me. 

As for Paypal protection, whether you pay as gift or not, they will not refund for dead animals. They would probably refund (although I've had mixed reviews) if the parcel did not arrive, but that's different. Still should've protected myself against it not turning up, but either way they wouldn't refund me for a dead spider. From my very first post I said not to pay by gift so I think that part has been done to death now. Pardon the pun. xx


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## martin3 (May 24, 2011)

DodgemGreaser said:


> So who is the seller?


 If I say that KathyM's money has gone 'to infinity and beyond', I don't think I would be braking any rules...:whistling2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Oh Martin, you are clever. :flrt:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Does anyone have any practical advice on how to proceed in my case? I'm guessing the mods haven't finished investigating yet and I haven't heard anything back from the seller either. I haven't wanted to keep hassling the seller in PM while the mods were trying to investigate but obviously he thinks (well, knows) he's got away with it.


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

Just leave him very negative feedback as now I don't think there is anything else that can be done


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I would if the mods would agree to protect me in doing so. As it stands their rules protect the seller only.


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

KathyM said:


> Not difficult to find. I'm bound by the rules not to name and shame but the ad is still up, a £42 AF smithi isn't hard to find.


And the guys username is also a famous kids film character :whistling2:


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## AuHr (Nov 21, 2013)

I think you have both had successful sales so far, but unfortunately on this occasion something has gone wrong. You both for what ever reasons jump to conclusions and blame each other. Could it be not the case that the t was posted alive in good faith, the buyer paid for the t in good faith but the t died in transit. If I was the seller and the buyer posted a picture of the dead t I would refund half the money.


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

GRB said:


> You'll notice I added "also" in the first sentence, implying that I agreed with at least some of your sentiments. The reason it was quoted was to avoid the need to repeat your point and make my sentence more clearly run on from that.
> 
> Last I checked quoting someone wasn't an insult, but if you want to be offended go for it.


nope no where near offended :welcome:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

AuHr said:


> I think you have both had successful sales so far, but unfortunately on this occasion something has gone wrong. You both for what ever reasons jump to conclusions and blame each other. Could it be not the case that the t was posted alive in good faith, the buyer paid for the t in good faith but the t died in transit. If I was the seller and the buyer posted a picture of the dead t I would refund half the money.


Eh? Sorry I'm not sure if I understand or if you do either. I have never, not once, jumped to any conclusions. It no doubt happened exactly as you describe otherwise, so I'm not sure whether you've read my posts at all? I have been nothing but polite and patient. I sent two PMs on the day the spider arrived - the first saying she had arrived dead (and even said I was sorry to have to tell him the bad news) and one with photos. I hadn't even mentioned a refund to him before he sent me two very silly PMs making daft accusations. I have not chased him as the mods are investigating amd I'm sure they would back me on this point, not that I can understand how you could come to your conclusions from reading my posts. Please reread with fresh eyes, I have done the polar opposite of "jumping to conclusions". If anything I've been too soft. His first reply was to refuse a refund I hadn't even requested and to make horrible accusations.


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

KathyM said:


> I would if the mods would agree to protect me in doing so. As it stands their rules protect the seller only.


That's about right. Who's in charge here David Cameron :whistling2:


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## spider_mad (Mar 8, 2007)

lazaru said:


> I wishi had seen this thread a couple of weeks ago as I bought a couple of slings from tss
> My first time ordering from there and the Augacephalus ezendami was doa , all the others were fine and doing really well
> I didnt do anything about it just put it down to one of those things , I wish I had of now as it didnt occur to me at the time that I could do something about it
> it has put me off ordering again from there which is stupid really as I bet they would of replaced it for me .
> ...


Many years back I ordered a few slings from TSS and had one doa the rest find. Emailed that day to mention it and they sent me a replacement and an extra one to boot. It's always worth mentioning it just helps having good comms and repertoire between seller/trader and customer.


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## jaybott (Mar 12, 2014)

spider_mad said:


> Many years back I ordered a few slings from TSS and had one doa the rest find. Emailed that day to mention it and they sent me a replacement and an extra one to boot. It's always worth mentioning it just helps having good comms and repertoire between seller/trader and customer.


Have you read any of what kathym has said :whistling2:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

spider_mad said:


> Many years back I ordered a few slings from TSS and had one doa the rest find. Emailed that day to mention it and they sent me a replacement and an extra one to boot. It's always worth mentioning it just helps having good comms and repertoire between seller/trader and customer.


Lee is great isn't he.


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