# New setup for Chucks, Leopard lizards, Collared lizards and Horned lizards.



## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

This will be my last setup using real rocks. I have been inspired by the likes of Pendragon, tomcannon and other 'artists' on this site as well as other sites. I hope to be cutting into styrofom soon. I will probably have many questions...

The enclosure is 6' wide, 9' deep and 3' high. I am running 11 flood lamps. The substrate is packed playsand. I used native grasses. I boiled the grass to get rid of all the creepy crawlers. The chucks have already bull-dozed over much of the grass, but it seems to be pretty durable. I hope to be using some carex later. I just got back from southern Nevada and the marvelous Mojave desert. I have what I think are some pretty cool ideas. For the time being - the guys are living in this:






















































I'll post more shots of the setup later. Any and all critiques are welcome - thanks!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I've got a question or two; collared lizards are noted for cannibalistic tendancies- any problems with them? And why boil the grasses? Surely any imported 'wildlife' would be eaten anyway. Neither question is intended to be antagonistic, I'm honestly curious. The set-up itself is spectacular! :2thumb:


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Hi Ron Magpie,
Thanks for your kind words on the setup.

Both Collared and Leopard lizards are noted for cannibalism and their voracious appetites. If you look at the picture with the two Leopard lizards and the Chuckwalla - The male is about the size of the females tail. They are constantly hanging out together and I have never seen any aggression at all. I was a bit wary at first, but everybody gets along very well. I will be adding a male Collared lizard this summer and I don't expect that there we any more aggression as long as the size is the same as the others.


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## exoticsandtropics (Mar 11, 2007)

love this. great sized tank, plenty of heat sources to allow a nice regulation area and cool species. good job


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

as above, love it, really like the look of it and the space afforded for the guys.

saw a horned lizard today, must've been 3inches or so, my missus heart nearly melted at the sight of the lil guy.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Ok, next question: Generally in the UK, horned lizards are considered a bit of a no-go because of their dietry needs- what are yours feeding on?


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Hi Ron Magpie - keep those questions coming...


> Ok, next question: Generally in the UK, horned lizards are considered a bit of a no-go because of their dietry needs- what are yours feeding on?


I caught mine, so they are probably much more used to the carpenter ants being in their diet. However - All Desert Horned lizards need to consume carpenter ants to aid in their digestive process. Some say that their diet should be 90% carpenter ants. I do order carpenter ants and feed the Horned lizards in a separate tank a couple of times a week. When they are back in the big enclosure they love wax worm larva, moths, smaller crickets, horned worms, grass hoppers and locusts. They routinely go after locusts as big as themselves.

I'd ask the breeders or whoever is selling the Horned lizards what they are feeding their guys and see how healthy they appear to be.

**I want to say that if you can get them to eat (and it should be easy to do in the right environment - hot and dry) they are a real treat. GET A MALE AND A FEMALE. they will communicate through head-bobs, tail waggings and body gyrations and they will do it even if they can't see the other. Pretty cool stuff indeed. It is fun to see a bunch of them under one of the basking lamps and at the top of the pile is one of the Horned lizards...


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

the one i was looking at yesterday was captive bred, the guy at the shop did say they can be a hassle (think he was refering to getting to eat and what they eat) i am actually tempted by one, one day


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Hi Meefloafsaw 


> saw a horned lizard today, must've been 3inches or so, my missus heart nearly melted at the sight of the lil guy.


They are cute little guys. See my respone to Ron's question (above) and if you can provide them with the right environment you should have good results as long as you are working with healthy lizards.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

The setup is lovely, I'd love something so large you can literally stand in it. :2thumb:

I'll be interested to hear how the grasses get on. I had real trouble keeping carex alive. Hopefully these native grasses will be more durable.


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## mickmorelia (Feb 19, 2011)

tomcannon said:


> The setup is lovely, I'd love something so large you can literally stand in it. :2thumb:
> 
> My sentiments too. Really amazing . What a setup you have . When I first saw the dimensions I thought ' No ' Incredible !


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Tomcannon - the grasses at this time are holding their own. I was surprised to hear about the carex. I am trying to get creosote, but very difficult to get shipped. I can get seeds, but it grows very slowly. The root system is supposed to be difficult to work with unless it is kept in good shape, so I can't just uproot one and transfer it 2,000 miles from the Mohave to my home. I have not given up on it...yet. The Chucks could not bull-doze a creosote bush.


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Ooooops - forgot that I have some pictures to post...
I am looking at brumating the guys - I have never done it, but it seems do-able. Any suggestions would be appreciated. 

Leopard lizards have this bad reputation of being evil, jut cuz they are cannibalistic... =P I have seen these guys to be very affectionate and loving of attention. If you can - try 'em out. You may be pleasantly surprised...

Heres a couple of new pictures:
2 tired Leopard lizards. That support beam WAS under the playsand, BUT the guys dug it up...AGAIN... I hate that =P









Female Leopard and the Chucks









Getting ready for lights out...


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

That really is fantastic looking! The beam looks fine to me, just looks like a half hurried piece of wood, maybe implement some chips and splits in the wood to make it look more natural. I think it was my fault the carex struggled, they weren't well planted and had little soil so makes sense they didn't survive. I've searched high and low for fake grasses but everything I can find is either cheap looking or costs ridiculous amount. How have you planted them?

Did the leopards make those burrows themselves or did you help? How deep is the substrate and what is it?


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Hi tomcannon,
Thanks, for the compliments and the idea about the wood. I was just going to put more sand on it. I like the idea of aging and weathering it with chips and splits... Cool idea!

The grass is tied up tight at the base, pinned tightly between rocks under the substrate... thats it. They can be big rocks too as long as it fits into the general flow of the enclosure.

The leopards as well as all the others dig their tunnels and (sometimes reluctantly) share the tunnels. The substrate is Playsand. It comes out of the bag slightly damp. I flatten the sand as I place it in the enclosure and it is baked by the lights. It holds tunnels for a couple of months and by that time the enclosure is ready to be cleaned - so the old Playsand gets replaced... 20 new bags of sand go in and the process is repeated.


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

... I forgot to mention the depth - Sorry! it ranges from 3-5 inches which gives most of them plenty of room to dig their tunnels. I have found that (at least in this enclosure) the Lepps and the Collareds are very much into constructing tunnels.


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

These are probably the last pics of the guys for a while. With brumation just around the corner - most of the lights are off. Now it is time for The Fake Rock Wall build to begin... *Help me - never done this...*:blush::gasp: 



















*So - on to the rock wall - *

*I like this:*









*And this, not the wood though!:*









*And this:*
*I need to make those cracks, crevices and fisssures completely useable for the guys. * 








So I'd love some help from the artists out there, especially those that have worked with the various foams and or concrete/cement mix... HELP *please*.

Thanks,

tom


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

You'll obviously only want to be doing this the once so it'll need to be totally rock solid. I'd suggest using the cement route. Have a chat with Andrew (Acromyrmexbob), he does this work for various zoos and similar displays and his work is superb. I'd imagine he'll suggest making a wooden frame covered in mesh which you then shovel concrete in to, carving styrofoam to that degree would take forever. 

Good luck and make sure you take lots of pictures as this is something I've wanted to do for a long long time!


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Tomcannon - I think you may be right about the "cement route." Still not sure though...

I looked at Andrew's work and it IS SUPERB. I also talked with one of the exhibit designers at our Minnesota zoo (which is a couple of miles from where I live.) He has a degree in biology and art and now he creates exhibits - cool! He said that he thought styrofoam would work for what I am doing.

You know - it looks so easy when you see peoples' work through their pictures. I am trying to save money by using all sorts of different sizes and textures taken from appliance stores. It's not quite as easy as I thought, but like drawing - sometimes you just can't get it to work, in the end it'll work. I'm just gonna have a ton of questions. I might just buy some new stuff. We don't have the Kingspan brand, but we have the same stuff marketed by Owens Corning™ and they call it FOAMULAR®250 extruded polystyrene (XPS). $24.00 (14.96 pounds) for a 4' X 8' X 2" sheet. I might practice with the cheap stuff first. Same size sheet is $11.00 or 6.85 pounds, or do you guys say pounds sterling? :blush:


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## mickmorelia (Feb 19, 2011)

All looking really good . The photo of the rockwork in the enclosure , is that your local zoo ? It looks really good . Regarding polystyrene/styrophone rock walls etc . I think a lot of people have thought about it , including myself but never done it ! Takes a lot of guts , so best of luck with your project . I'm enjoying watching your progress and once again good luck it looks amazing already :2thumb:


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

tdachel said:


> Tomcannon - I think you may be right about the "cement route." Still not sure though...
> 
> I looked at Andrew's work and it IS SUPERB. I also talked with one of the exhibit designers at our Minnesota zoo (which is a couple of miles from where I live.) He has a degree in biology and art and now he creates exhibits - cool! He said that he thought styrofoam would work for what I am doing.
> 
> You know - it looks so easy when you see peoples' work through their pictures. I am trying to save money by using all sorts of different sizes and textures taken from appliance stores. It's not quite as easy as I thought, but like drawing - sometimes you just can't get it to work, in the end it'll work. I'm just gonna have a ton of questions. I might just buy some new stuff. We don't have the Kingspan brand, but we have the same stuff marketed by Owens Corning™ and they call it FOAMULAR®250 extruded polystyrene (XPS). $24.00 (14.96 pounds) for a 4' X 8' X 2" sheet. I might practice with the cheap stuff first. Same size sheet is $11.00 or 6.85 pounds, or do you guys say pounds sterling? :blush:


Styrofoam will work don't get me wrong, just I know how long it takes to build it and on a much smaller scale, it's a lot of hours. You then have to ensure it is rock solid, what are you planning on covering the styrofoam with? Both routes will work if done correctly, styrofoam will be lighter but take much longer, it will also be weaker if not done properly. Either way you best hurry because I'm inpatient and want to see it! : victory:


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

That makes 2 of us!
I am really excited about this. I have done tons of research - I just have to start...


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## Meefloaf (Mar 24, 2013)

zoopoxy ? Zoopoxy | Polygem Epoxy


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Meefloaf:
Thanks for the info! I was so excited about this idea...It seems to be a bit pricey. It looks like $134.00 for a 2 gallon kit. Wow! 

There is also - Rapid Set® Cement All™ Concrete Repair - Fast Setting, High-Strength, Non-Shrink Grout. it sets in 15 mins. Still investigating these options...


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi, this looks amazing. Thanks for the heads up. I wouldn't consider anything other than cement based rock work for this. The durability and appearance of using this media is second to none. However I would not suggest doing this on such a scale as your first project. Whilst using various styrofoams etc may take longer you have the benefit of being able to adjust and play around with it. Making artificial rockwork, the clock it ticking. The size of your project in rockwork would take 2 days to complete, in Styrofoam it would take weeks. With artificial rock you can experiment with colour once the basic rock is complete, you can change it and build up layers within it using paint with a brush or small spray kit. When finished, the concrete based rock not only looks like rock, it feels like rock, you can climb on it and hose it down if you want!
If you need any advice about rockwork, let me know, you are way far away, I think I am working in Philadelphia next year, maybe we can hook up.


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## ukgeckos (Apr 11, 2007)

Love this, I'm playing with the idea of grasses too but it's hard to find a decent grass over here!!


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

mickmorelia - Thanks. The enclosure that you mentioned is from the Dallas Zoo. I am like you - been thinking of doing this for a long time. I am certain there is a learning curve, but the guys on this forum and others that do it well - they make it look soooo easy. 

acromyrmexbob - Thanks for your input - very much appreciated. Again - your work is incredible. 

ukgeckos - Thanks for your kind words. I thought Carex was the way to go, but tomcannon had difficulty keeping his alive... All we can do is experiment...

Finally! Here are my finalists. I need to have deep, functional ledges, crevices, fissures...whatever you want to call them - the thing is the need to be functional for the guys. Having said that... 

Finalist1 - I purposely left the website name on, not to advertise, but to give credit for their workmanship. I think that this was a wall done for a private customer... 









Finalist2 - This is from Joshua Tree (Actually part of an Audi TT shoot) The circled area shows what I am after, again the ledges would have to be deeper, but you get the idea.









Finalist3 - Done by Reiner Hoppe from Germany. I am sure that most of you have seen his stuff. I like a lot of his stuff quite a bit. 









Finalist4 - Part of an exhibit for Snow Leopards At the Milwaukee zoo. This has quite a bit of detail. Like the others - great work.









Finalist5 - Pu Tor - the south west view looking towards Cornwall. I did not know of Tors. I now LOVE Tors. Cool stuff. 









Now this is my first attempt at a rock wall. It sounds like there are many people that want to do this stuff and don't know where to begin. There are some highly skilled people that have commented on this thread and their knowledge and experience is what I hope to continue to get - thank you in advance. I have to get down from 5 finalists to 1. I think any of them would look great, but which of these is the most do-able? This stuff keeps me up at night. Um...:help: :smile:


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

tdachel said:


> mickmorelia - Thanks. The enclosure that you mentioned is from the Dallas Zoo. I am like you - been thinking of doing this for a long time. I am certain there is a learning curve, but the guys on this forum and others that do it well - they make it look soooo easy.
> 
> acromyrmexbob - Thanks for your input - very much appreciated. Again - your work is incredible.
> 
> ...


Personally I wouldn't try to copy but rather replicate. You clearly have a good idea of what it is you're after so rather than copying one of the finalists I'd simply use them all to come up with your own ideas. This is what I do, build up an idea in my head and go with the flow as apposed to copying an image I've either found or drawn, I think it would be easier this way. All those images look like great designs so if it looks like them with your deep crevices incorporated then job done.


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## ukgeckos (Apr 11, 2007)

The south west tors are an excellent source of inspiration and after many visits there I always come back and tinker with my setups! 
I'm currently playing with 6 inch deep celotex as we have a ready supply of off cuts (which you still are welcome to Tom) that would help with the scale of your setups.

I had a similar set up about 15 years ago with chucks and uromastyx but used real stones. Although real ones look great they just don't allow the natural environment to be replicated safely


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## ukgeckos (Apr 11, 2007)

Btw the snow leopard enclosure looks amazing


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

I am WAY Over analyzing this, but I want it to work well and look good. So... I have been playing with some shapes in Blender. Now, I have never drawn rocks. I thought it'd be simple - how hard can it be?! Well for me...apparently REAL hard. So I have included an image to show scale and an image of (Perhaps) the kind of rocks I might be using. I figure if I can (ever) learn to digitally sculpt cool looking rocks/boulders, I should be able to shape them in Styrofoam and/or sculpt them in cement/concrete... 

Remember - this is real "ruff"

For scaling purposes...










A Closeup









There are no light sources, shadows, substrates, texture to the rocks or even lizards. Just an idea of a type/style of rock. I think that the rock work (posted above) from the Milwaukee zoo is incredible, but Joshua Tree and the Tors are incredible as well. 

Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Still no idea what this enclosure is gonna look like. I know that a lot of you want to do the whole fake rock thing too. Do you guys have sketches or ideas floating around in your head? With real rock you have trial and error if you have enough rocks. (I will post a picture tomorrow of my limestone inventory - ugh!.)

So here are some more incomplete and ruff sketches/sculpts/renderings... that remind me of a canyon that I explored in Nevada about a month ago. 



















Again - ruff, but I am just playing with shapes. Critiques and criticisms welcome.


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## acromyrmexbob (Oct 3, 2010)

To be honest, I would dive in. Get a picture of what you like, stick it to your wall, make a bold decision between concrete or Styrofoam and then go for it. At the end of the day you can always rip it out and try again. In order to see what works and what doesn't, at some stage you are going to have to do something. You should maybe try doing a sample in each and comparing. You will learn a lot about the feasibility of each technique and where your skill level lies, by trying to do a small portion in each media.


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Thanks acromyrmexbob. Good advice and I am moving faster than I expected...until now. I think it is coming down to a canyon scene with rocks based on Joshua tree and the Tors I am going to post a couple more sketches and one with as much detail as my Computer can handle. Then I start begging for help.

Heres 2 more and they are ruff. I 'may' have gone a bit crazy with some of the boulder:whistling2: Oh well... Sorry for the sketches, I checked and not too many people post sketches.

Thanks for not yellin' at me :notworthy:




















Please ignore the red circle, in the bottom sketch. Sorry, I didn't see it till I was about to post...


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## saisaac (Nov 22, 2013)

Looks amazing. I personally like the natural rocks more than a fake rock setup so that I can rearrange things as I feel, but less weight would be nice. 

How did you get the grass situated?


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Thanks saisaac!
I like real rocks too, I think the fake rock wall is the next step. I can throw a couple of rock piles in a cage and sometimes it looks pretty good, but I want to do better. Adding a wall behind the rocks can bring our home enclosures to the next level, maybe kinda close to small zoo exhibits...maybe...if i am lucky.

I am finally going to see what I can do. Kinda nervous about it. I am still not
100% sold on my designs, but like acromyrmexbob said "To be honest, I would dive in. Get a picture of what you like, stick it to your wall, make a bold decision between concrete or Styrofoam and then go for it"... I am currently waiting for an update to his thread to be (again) inspired and then we'll see what the weekend brings...

So here's what I have:

This sketch shows where the lizards may choose to relax and bask. The lizards are in scale to the enclosure - so the size of the 'zards in the enclosure is pretty accurate. Having said that - the sketch is laughable, but accurate. They are green for easy visibility. 









Take the lizards from the first sketch and imagine them in the next 2 sketches. 

Here is another style of rockwork. It is the same layout - different style and its pretty ruff. Lotsa detail work... 









This last one -little bit of a Joshua tree wanna be... I want to start something this weekend! I found the camera and am charging the battery. 









Another angle.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

As much as I love the designs I keep opening this thread expecting to see a start to the work! Honestly, your design will change as you get in to it, dive in!


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## mickmorelia (Feb 19, 2011)

tomcannon said:


> As much as I love the designs I keep opening this thread expecting to see a start to the work! Honestly, your design will change as you get in to it, dive in!


 Yes I agree wholeheartedly . Get stuck in and start building . It's suprising how things start to develop once you've began the actual work


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

Any update to this?


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## mickmorelia (Feb 19, 2011)

tomcannon said:


> Any update to this?[/QU
> 
> Yes Any more news ?


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Ok...
I have been waiting for acromyrmexbob to post some stuff to further inspire me.
I was trying to get my guys down for brumation and that didn't take, so I am trying that again. So whatever I do will be on a smaller scale (6x3x3 compared to 6x9x3), but still good practice.

Here's what I am thinking:
1. Do it in concrete.
2. I am concerned about getting the bottom of the ledges covered, But since
I am working from the bottom up - that should not be a problem...right?
3. If I get a wedge and wrap that in plastic, the concrete will dry around the
wedge and not stick to it...right? 
4. I am thinking that filling a couple of garbage bags with styrofoam or
cardboard boxes etc and putting the mesh over it and applying the
concrete to that is pretty much all this comes down to...right? That would 
lighten the rocks quite a bit...
5. Can I go back for the detail work and just apply a new layer of concrete to
a dry layer and make that layer all pretty?

Here are 2 very ruff, almost primitive mockups. You guys were right - once you start on the work - the idea changes. Again very ruff, but at least they are not drawings. :whistling2:

Mockup 1.










Mockup 2.









The big things to me are basking areas and functional, snug hides. I am not nuts over these mockups, but am really motivated now. Please help me with some answers to those questions - thanks.

I am really looking forward to seeing acromyrmexbob's progress on that rock wall.


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## dragora (May 12, 2008)

gosh really quite jealous of you origonal enclosure, cant wait to see your improvments.:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

I think that I may be getting ready for grouting. There have been design changes, walls falling down on me, the loss of blood from cuts - all sorts of fun stuff. This little exercise is just the first part. I still have to do the 6X3X9 enclosure after this... STILL, I LOVE THIS STUFF!!!

I am planning on putting 3-5" of play sand in, so that is why some of the foam/rocks are on "stilts". I will include one shot where I put a brownish floor in the picture so you can get a better idea of how it should look with the sand in. 

I have some questions:
1. The blue strips of foam that are seen on the back wall. I think that with a couple of layers of sanded grout it MAY look OK???
2. How do I grout the tight, overlapping areas (image below)
3. Will I be ok with the white base foam not being attached to the enclosure. They are in between beams and nice and snug, but not attached. I am hoping I will be fine... 

I am using different foams for different textures and cost. Collection of the foam has been done entirely through Dumpster Diving, which is a very humbling way to procure the foam. One site gave me 4 4'X8'
2" thick foam sheets and tons of remnants - about $120.00 in foam.

Oh, the colors (of the foam) mean nothing - purely random. All comments and critiques are welcomed. No thin skin here - *fire away.*

This is the front view:









Left side:









Right side: 









How do I grout areas like this - tight and lots of overlaps? (The base foam attached to the enclosure is the white stuff):









Front view with pretend sand:









There are at least 7 hides and 7 baking stations. The horned lizards may go in there with whiptails and racerunners (whiptails from the Mohave, racerunners from SE Minnesota.) I was thinking no collards or Leopards in here and probably not enough room for the chucks.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

tdachel said:


> I have some questions:
> 1. The blue strips of foam that are seen on the back wall. I think that with a couple of layers of sanded grout it MAY look OK???
> It may do but I don't really understand. Can you not shape it somewhat like you have the rest?
> 2. How do I grout the tight, overlapping areas (image below)
> ...


Help above in red. I think it looks brilliant and I'm looking forward to watching it progress!


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Thanks dragora and tomcannon. I appreciate it! 
I made some changes to the background. There still looks to be too much open space though... so there will be additional modifications, but here is the direction I am going in...

From the front:









Kind of a 3/4 view from the front:









The right hand corner:









Thanks for looking!


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## mickmorelia (Feb 19, 2011)

All looking good :2thumb:Sometimes wish I took my time rather than rushing ahead as the finished product always requires changes or improvements !


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

I made a few more modifications. Grouting to begin soon.

Left corner not as rocky - primarily a big baking area:









From the center looking right. This shows the varying depth of the 'rocks'. I don't want the walls looking like a log cabin.









From the front:









Let me know what you think, please. Thanks.


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

*The worst hour of my life...ugh!*
I opted to use sand topping mix. I thought I had the "rocks" Secured to the back wall, but I guess not... I think I also went to heavy with the first coat of sand topping mix. I would say that it was about as thick as a milkshake, maybe it should have been more watery. I am very interested in hearing your opinions on what to do next. The "rocks" look like rocks (at least I think so...) Also - I should've glued the back layer of styrofoam to the plywood frame. I hope I don't have to start over... H e l p... 




















Yep, those are cocktail sticks and it is the first coat.


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## tomcannon (Jan 2, 2008)

tdachel said:


> *The worst hour of my life...ugh!*
> I opted to use sand topping mix. I thought I had the "rocks" Secured to the back wall, but I guess not... I think I also went to heavy with the first coat of sand topping mix. I would say that it was about as thick as a milkshake, maybe it should have been more watery. I am very interested in hearing your opinions on what to do next. The "rocks" look like rocks (at least I think so...) Also - I should've glued the back layer of styrofoam to the plywood frame. I hope I don't have to start over... H e l p...
> 
> image
> ...


Well it looks good. What issues were arising? The styrofoam shifting? Why do you think you should have glued the back layer down and why would you need to start again? I agree it would be easier to start with a thinner coat. Grout sticks to grout better than to styrofoam so it's a good idea to do a nice quick thin coat so the next coat has something to adhere to easily, makes for a better application.


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

Hi Tomcannon -
I agree - it looks ok, but the foam is shiting. Because the back wall is not glued to the frame there is some give to it when weight is applied and I wonder if the wall will not come crashing down... I like the look of the "rocks", but perhaps sand topping mix was a poor choice for this layout. Some of the ledges and even the bigger "rocks" were not able to bear the weight necessary for this layout. I think that maybe Great Stuff (spray foam) might help. I know that this stuff breathes which will cause cracks, but if spackling is spread over the foam - the breathing is eliminated. It worked nicely for Thrasops (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/878380-naturalistic-snake-enclosures-fake-walls.html )

I didn't see this coming, so I am rethinking this whole thing.

I am open to any advice or comments


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

After having a wall pretty much collapse on me - I started over. Shortcuts come back to bite you and I should have known that. I looked to see what kind of new design I was going to go with. I really like Herr Hoppe's stuff (News & Terrarienbau » HOPPE Terrarienbau Exclusiv). Beautiful stuff, I don't think that some of his rockwork is realistic, but I think it still works. Anyways - I wanted to do something like that but came up with this: 









Right side: 









Left side:








I can see how many people are going to see a bunch Styrofoam cubes laying on top of each other...and I see that too. But, I am hoping those skilled in enclosure design may see the snug hides, the basking/baking stations and some open room for the guys to run around in...

The "rocks" will be moved up 5 inches as 5 inches of play sand will go into the enclosure. Still no ideas on how to fill all the empty space. I really want to try Great Stuff (foam in a can).

It is going to be very difficult to get grout into some of the very tight areas. Can I grout the "rocks" with a couple of coats and then attach them to the wall and spray the foam over them and continue shaping/carving? Many/most of the "rocks" are held into place by the position that other "rocks have beneath them... Let me know what you think.

P.S. I was just given about 10 sheets of the 2 inch thick real dense foam sheets (like your Kingspan.) That is almost $200.00. No more dumpster diving...


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

I filled the background up a bit and I plan on using Great Stuff (foam in a can) throughout the cage. All this is new to me and I have to get something done soon. I may have a gravid Chuck and I am 3 weeks or so away from a trip to the Mojave - lots going on. I will also have to move many of the "rocks" up 5 inches to allow for the substrate to go in. The rocks in the background are primarily for looks and mass. Some of the "rocks" were initially brought in from an earlier stage of this build. Please feel free to critique. Remember there will be grass throughout the cage. Horned toads, whiptails and racerunners are going in this enclosure when finished... 

Front View: 









Right View: 









Left view:


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## tdachel (Jul 15, 2010)

First shots - Still have to get lighting just right, put a top on and put the lizards in. Remember this is my first wall. Please feel free to critique. Size is 6x3x3.

Center









Left


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