# Strong wire or leather muzzle - recommendations?



## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

Ninja has just trashed his second plastic baskerville muzzle in a month! He repeatedly bashes his head on the ground and paws at it until it tears.

He's good as gold in the house but must be muzzled when out. I obviously need something stronger, wire or leather I'm presuming, but I really Don't want anything macho looking. I am not a chav and I do not want to draw that sort of attention to him!

Any recommendations? It really needs to be a muzzle with some sort of strap over the forehead too as otherwise he quickly realises that with his short snout he can pull them off.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

What breed is he? I know years ago there were leather muzzles but don't know if they still make them. Have seen wire ones, similar to a Baskerville but in wire, have you tried doing a Google search for wire muzzles, or even ebay :2thumb:.

EDIT: Just done a search for you & found this... http://www.google.co.uk/products?hl...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQrQQwAg


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

Have a look on ebay at the leather ones.

I think leather would be best because if he easily trashes a muzzle a metal one could do his face some damage if he did brake it.

I do understand the problem though, my boy wont wear one at all, so I resort to using a head collar if needed and doing allot of road and country lane walking away from other people.

I did have a good look around at the different types, but they all look about the same unfortunatly.


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

Yes. I've found a few sites that sell them. I just wondered if anyone had tried any of them. 

I hate the look of the wire ones, but if they do the job then so be it. Most of the leather ones seem to have nasty added studs etc. Definitely NOT the image I want to portray of my staffie x !!!


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Those metal ones look very strong so i doubt the Dog would break it. Racing Greyhounds wear wire racing muzzles & these withstand quite a bit of abuse at the pick up when they bash into the box the hare goes into & they aren't as thick metal as these ones are :2thumb:. They look well padded round the nose too which is good (looks to have a leather insert in them to protect the nose).


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

And yes, I tend to head off up farm tracks etc for an easy life. But I'm worried that I might be making things worse. He was completely lacking in socialization when we got him, but as he's still under one I'm hoping there's still a chance we can overcome his aggression towards other dogs. So I'm making an effort to take him to busier places.

His Mekuti harness should arrive tomorrow so I'm praying that will make walks slightly less stressfull too :lol2:


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## robstaine (May 7, 2009)

yeah mine wears a muzzle too heres a pic... though I think these are the ones your dog breaks?









though he doesnt try take it off thank god but I thinkyyou have to introduce it to him slowly otherwise he will continue to take them off and hurt his paws while doing so.


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## fenwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

vonnie said:


> Ninja has just trashed his second plastic baskerville muzzle in a month! He repeatedly bashes his head on the ground and paws at it until it tears.
> 
> He's good as gold in the house but must be muzzled when out. I obviously need something stronger, wire or leather I'm presuming, but I really Don't want anything macho looking. I am not a chav and I do not want to draw that sort of attention to him!
> 
> Any recommendations? It really needs to be a muzzle with some sort of strap over the forehead too as otherwise he quickly realises that with his short snout he can pull them off.


 Why do you not just stop him from bashing his head and pawing it while you are out with him?


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## robstaine (May 7, 2009)

we have certain dog at my work place that do what this dog does and it is very difficult to try and stop them.


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## Nebbz (Jan 27, 2008)

i tried one of them halti things, and mine did the same, unless your actually hanging the dog from the face or neck they just drag there heads! 

OR just do what my dog did and just go in to a dead weight... defeated the whole object of pulling thats for sure...i had to pick him up in the end and go home, We got the best part of 100 yards from the back door :lol2:

Although its very good for bath time as he wont move! :2thumb:


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

vonnie said:


> Ninja has just trashed his second plastic baskerville muzzle in a month! He repeatedly bashes his head on the ground and paws at it until it tears.


OK this is going to sound controversial, but if I had a dog that needed to be muzzled, and it trashed the muzzles, I'd be getting it to a behaviourist: APBC or trainer APDT as soon as. There's no excuse, sorry. 

Those trainers and behaviourists will advise you, no need to come on here. They might offer solutions that mean your dog has a life *without* a muzzle. 
If the dog is that upset then you need to think about his quality of life.... and if you can't afford professional help then get him to a rescue. 

If you are already with a qualified behaviourist then dump them and find another.
No dog needs to be having this much stress, and_ you_ as an owner doesn't need it either when there are other people out there who can help and get him _out_ of a muzzle and improve his quality of life. 
Get that dog a life.... NOT a stronger muzzle. There's something up here.... and it's obviously not the dog's fault.


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Nebbz said:


> i tried one of them halti things, and mine did the same, unless your actually hanging the dog from the face or neck they just drag there heads!
> 
> OR just do what my dog did and just go in to a dead weight... defeated the whole object of pulling thats for sure...i had to pick him up in the end and go home, We got the best part of 100 yards from the back door :lol2:
> 
> Although its very good for bath time as he wont move! :2thumb:


I fail to see how this is so. When you were taught how to use a Halti, did you not take on board how to stop exactly that happening? When used properly, it's simply impossible for a dog to put all of its weight into the Halti, same as with forcing their weight into it. Dog pulls, its head is pulled around and you walk the other way, and that continues until the dog stops pulling. Simple. It shouldn't be used as a quick fix to stop pulling, it's an aid to help control and teach big, strong dogs and as a safe guard for small people walking big dogs!


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

*As an adjunct:*
*Why* are you asking about putting this dog into stronger and stronger muzzles, when you could be putting your energy into training him *not to need one at all?* 
I rest my case.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

These types of muzzles are the best to go for imo. I wouldn't wory about how "macho" they look usually the best muzzles are the ones that look intimadating but at the end of the day it's there to do a job. We have a very aggressive dog who needs to be muzzled in public and she was the same she used to try destroy it get the muzzle off but but shes slowly getting used to it. a good tip is to put a treat into the muzzle and let the dog take the treat out. repeating this will show the dog that the muzzle is not a bad thing.


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

temeraire said:


> OK this is going to sound controversial, but if I had a dog that needed to be muzzled, and it trashed the muzzles, I'd be getting it to a behaviourist: APBC or trainer APDT as soon as. There's no excuse, sorry.
> 
> Those trainers and behaviourists will advise you, no need to come on here. They might offer solutions that mean your dog has a life *without* a muzzle.
> If the dog is that upset then you need to think about his quality of life.... and if you can't afford professional help then get him to a rescue.
> ...


How bloody dare you! You are talking utter shite!

I bet you dont know the first thing about this lady or her dog but yet you see fit to judge her and her dogs quality of life??

You obviously have no idea what its like to live with a dog who has behavioural issues. Which shows, as you seem to think behaviourists have magic wands they can wave and solve all dogs problems, course they can. Thats why so many people have dogs with issues, myself included. We must all be a bunch of cruel people who let our dogs suffer in torment.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

ryanr1987 said:


> These types of muzzles are the best to go for imo.


OP said in first post: 
_"Ninja has just trashed his second plastic baskerville muzzle in a month! He repeatedly bashes his head on the ground and paws at it until it tears."_
*These dogs don't need muzzles; they need a professional trainer*, asap.


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

marthaMoo said:


> You obviously have no idea what its like to live with a dog who has behavioural issues.


Actually, I do. 
Which is why I counselled as I did.


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## ryanr1987 (Mar 7, 2009)

temeraire said:


> *These dogs don't need muzzles; they need a professional trainer*, asap.


while that is true the dog will still need a muzzle to be taking out with and although these muzzle are plastic they are highly recommended for larger breeds such as gsd or rotts so having one on a staff would be no problem. Some dogs may never get used to others dogs so it may be something the op will ahve to deal with for the rest of the dogs life


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## marthaMoo (May 4, 2007)

temeraire said:


> OP said in first post:
> _"Ninja has just trashed his second plastic baskerville muzzle in a month! He repeatedly bashes his head on the ground and paws at it until it tears."_
> *These dogs don't need muzzles; they need a professional trainer*, asap.


What was your dog? a Killer Yorkie? lol

The lady has come on here for advice, not to be spoken to in such a manner.

There are loads of dogs out there who would and do exactly the same, its about finding the right muzzle and getting the dog use to it. Which is what I will be pming Vonnie about in the morning.

Unless your suggesting she walks a dog aggressive dog without a muzzle? Maybe you should tell all owners with dog aggressive dogs about how behaviourists can fix there dogs for them.lol
Some dogs are not and never will be dog friendly, deal with it!


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

ryanr1987 said:


> while that is true the dog will still need a muzzle to be taking out with and although these muzzle are plastic they are highly recommended for larger breeds such as gsd or rotts so having one on a staff would be no problem. Some dogs may never get used to others dogs so it may be something the op will ahve to deal with for the rest of the dogs life


Totally agree. I work with rescues as well. But no use buying bigger and better and stronger muzzles... if there is nothing in place to try and help the dogs not need them in the future.

If a dog has to wear a muzzle the rest of its life, then it must be comfortable with it. If it tears off the muzzles, then I would say some extra backup is needed in terms of behaviourists, unless these people can find someone who makes cast iron muzzles. But is that really the solution? The Dog In The Iron Mask?

What if no muzzles work for these dogs... what if they even manage rip off a cast iron one and still hurt someone else's dog or bite a human? 
Are they sentenced to live in prison the rest of their lives? 
Or PTS?
Or surrendered to rescue where people can assess and give them aprropriate remedial training?
Or had up under the DDA section 3, because the owner didn't want to do more training or behavioural work with it?

(Oh and if it's a "type" breed then I guess the owner wouldn't want to go to a behaviourist or go to classes or do anything above board. That changes things, I guess.)


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

marthaMoo said:


> What was your dog? a Killer Yorkie? lol


Oh very funny, not.
If you have ever been arrested under Dangerous Dogs Act section 3, tell me how you feel.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

temeraire said:


> Totally agree. I work with rescues as well. But no use buying bigger and better and stronger muzzles... if there is nothing in place to try and help the dogs not need them in the future.
> 
> If a dog has to wear a muzzle the rest of its life, then it must be comfortable with it. If it tears off the muzzles, then I would say some extra backup is needed in terms of behaviourists, unless these people can find someone who makes cast iron muzzles. But is that really the solution? The Dog In The Iron Mask?
> 
> ...


what a bloody stupid generelisation!!!!
theres people who keep staffy crosses who may be of "type" (DDA section one is a load of wooly crap) and look after them and that dont have behaviour issues. the op is obviously trying to do the best for all involved


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

ami_j said:


> what a bloody stupid generelisation!!!!
> theres people who keep staffy crosses who may be of "type" (DDA section one is a load of wooly crap) and look after them and want to sort out the dogs behaviour.


But these people don't seem to be doing that. Just want bigger better harder faster muzzle. Don't you worry, I support deed not breed. But just as long as owners support their dogs whatever 'type'.


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

temeraire said:


> But these people don't seem to be doing that. Just want bigger better harder faster muzzle. Don't you worry, I support deed not breed. But just as long as owners support their dogs whatever 'type'.


as i edited they are probably doing whats best for the dog, they could be muzzling him for socialisation or so he gets off lead time. the OP obviously cares for the dog and suggesting they turf him to a rescue isnt really constructive


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## temeraire (Nov 13, 2009)

ami_j said:


> as i edited they are probably doing whats best for the dog, they could be muzzling him for socialisation or so he gets off lead time. the OP obviously cares for the dog and suggesting they turf him to a rescue isnt really constructive


Don't recall I did.... I would certainly have suggested getting in a professional first.... which I thought I had done.... but apparently someone came in and said that wasn't a good idea.
*shrug*
I just get to see the dogs after the muzzles haven't worked. Just thought it might be an idea to suggest other options, that's all.


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## Pimperella (Sep 26, 2006)

After reading about where you got your dog from and that he had issues when you took him on after being passed over so many times. I do sorta shadow Temeraire views on getting a fully qualified Behaviourist in to help you to bring him round into the dog he potentialy could be. With the right help and focused training he could well become a calmer dog and able to enjoy walks. 
Something has happened in his past before he ended up in rescue and you can get the behaviourist to help you turn his life around and of course yours. It must be very stressfull out on walks and at times you must be reduced to tears with the constant struggle your faced with.
I hope that with this you could have a wonderful walking experience that will not leave you shaking in panic at the thought of having to do it all again tomorrow.





LoveForLizards said:


> I fail to see how this is so. When you were taught how to use a Halti, did you not take on board how to stop exactly that happening? When used properly, it's simply impossible for a dog to put all of its weight into the Halti, same as with forcing their weight into it. Dog pulls, its head is pulled around and you walk the other way, and that continues until the dog stops pulling. Simple. It shouldn't be used as a quick fix to stop pulling, it's an aid to help control and teach big, strong dogs and as a safe guard for small people walking big dogs!


 
Erm. So when they lie down and drop their legs completely, you just walk the other way? Erm, don't think so, you kinda just end up the otherside of the dog which is still lying down lol suppose if it's muddy you could just drag then along on their bellies or side :whistling2::lol2:


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

A properly fitted muzzle shouldn't cause any discomfort to the Dog. There is nothing wrong with a dog agressive Dog wearing a muzzle, at least it shows that the owners are being responsible & trying to stop anything happening :2thumb:. In the eyes of the law so long as the Dog is on a lead & deemed to be under control if that Dog then attacks another which is off the lead it is the owner of the off lead Dogs fault as their Dog wasn't deemed to be under control. Surely if this can be prevented by the wearing of a muzzle then it saves a lot of hassle in the long run. I have no problem with Dogs wearing muzzles, 2 of my Greyhounds wear them when they have off lead exercise. Would hate them to take a shine to a small fluffy Dog in the distance & run after it & kill it (which they could well do considering that is in their intinct to do, which any breed of Dog could do). So a responsible owner will do everything possible to try to prevent an attack happening. Sometimes no amount of behaviourists will stop a Dog. Would love to see one try to cure my big Dog, he just won't have any of it & it is worse since he was neutered (there goes the arguement that neutering stops all that sort of thing!!!).


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

I would go for a wire one, in conjunction with desensitizing your dog firstly to the muzzle, then to other dogs. 

What I would definately not do, is let a dog off wearing a muzzle because thats when they can really give them some stick trying to get them off, injure themselves and... they can really hurt another dog too (don't think you are doing this but some people do do this...).

If you want some really good positive dog behaviour/training advice have a look at http://.positively.com/forums


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## robstaine (May 7, 2009)

marthaMoo said:


> How bloody dare you! You are talking utter shite!
> 
> I bet you dont know the first thing about this lady or her dog but yet you see fit to judge her and her dogs quality of life??
> 
> You obviously have no idea what its like to live with a dog who has behavioural issues. Which shows, as you seem to think behaviourists have magic wands they can wave and solve all dogs problems, course they can. Thats why so many people have dogs with issues, myself included. We must all be a bunch of cruel people who let our dogs suffer in torment.


I agree no trainer or behaviourist has a 'quick fix'
I have been tackling my dogs fear aggression on humans and dogs for over a year and a half now I have been to 3 different behaviourists (including Mike from dog borstal) and even though he has slightly improved he will still lunge for anyone and everyone.. so you see its not that easy to just say you need a behaviorist and help the dog to get off the muzzle because I dont think some dogs can EVER be taken off a muzzle including mine.... but that does not mean he doesnt have a good quality of life mine was abused and probably tortured and now he cant trust anyone and I dont blame him, yes we have to move forward but its not like they can just forget their past like cesar milan says 'they live in the moment' cos if they did why would they still be aggressive or scared of things once they found the right home??

My bullmastiff cross is now between 4 or years if age they say and as he only came to me a year and a half ago he has a good 3 years of learnt behaviours that he is having trouble shifting so no not all behaviorists can help I have spent well over £600 on them and not much has improved... and no its not because I am soft with him. HE is not allowed on any furniture, he gets fed last, he walks through the door last and all the basic things they tell you to do. 

I think we should be giving the lady a break and if you do have any experience give it to her instead of slating her when she just wants help.


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## robstaine (May 7, 2009)

Emmabeth said:


> I would go for a wire one, in conjunction with desensitizing your dog firstly to the muzzle, then to other dogs.
> 
> What I would definately not do, is let a dog off wearing a muzzle because thats when they can really give them some stick trying to get them off, injure themselves and... they can really hurt another dog too (don't think you are doing this but some people do do this...).
> 
> If you want some really good positive dog behaviour/training advice have a look at http://.positively.com/forums


 
The link doesnt seem to be working


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## vonnie (Aug 20, 2007)

temeraire said:


> (Oh and if it's a "type" breed then I guess the owner wouldn't want to go to a behaviourist or go to classes or do anything above board. That changes things, I guess.)


How dare you make assumptions about me because I own a staffy cross.

That's exactly the attitude that puts decent owners off rehoming bull breeds.

And end up in a rescue? That's where he came from and he'll be going nowhere. He is a much loved member of our family.

He came to us with a LOT of issues. We have been working through all of them and there has been a huge improvement. He is a different dog now. The lead aggression is the one issue that we have not resolved. There is NO quick fix for a problem like this. And yes, we are waiting for a place on an intensive course with a behaviourist who specialises in aggression, but I'm under no illusions that it'll provide a miracle 'cure'. 

The muzzle is for his own protection. I am not willing to risk him being reported as a dangerous dog. I consider that being a responsible owner.

No quality of life? He lives happily with our other dog, is wonderful with us, the children, visitors, even the cats. Where we live I can and usually do walk for miles without seeing other dogs. The muzzle is for the occasional times we walk in more public places. Is a few minutes a day in a muzzle a fate worse than being PTS? I don't think so.

I asked for advice on muzzles, not a lecture. Thank you for the constructive replies from people who actually understand how difficult an issue this is to live with and overcome!


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## robstaine (May 7, 2009)

vonnie said:


> How dare you make assumptions about me because I own a staffy cross.
> 
> That's exactly the attitude that puts decent owners off rehoming bull breeds.
> 
> ...


can you send me the link so I can check it out and see if its any good for My dog please? Dont let people put you down.. I get asked if my dog is of 'Type' all the time when he clearly is not and I work in a shelter and see alot of poor dogs get PTS because of it and my dog came from there so if he was he wouldnt of been up for rehoming.. but that doesnt stop people giving me dirty looks... or idiots that think they are all that shouting across the road is that a pit??.... You are doing the best you can for him and I think it takes special people to take on a problem dog so good on you x


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## Emmaj (Dec 3, 2007)

vonnie said:


> How dare you make assumptions about me because I own a staffy cross.
> 
> That's exactly the attitude that puts decent owners off rehoming bull breeds.
> 
> ...


:no1:

There are not enough people like you out there 

All i see is someone looking out for her dog wanting the best for him and keeping him safe at the same time :flrt:


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## LoveForLizards (Apr 20, 2008)

Forgot to say, if you want a leather muzzle I'd go to a leather crafts man or saddlery who makes bridles and the like and see if they could make you a muzzle. With an aggressive dog a woven Goat skin (Goat is one of the best leathers available at the moment, slightly expensive but very soft, supple and strong so would be perfect for a muzzle) muzzle would be best. Not too difficult to make providing the right tools are at hand. Most of the leather muzzles now a days are pretty rubbish, made of cheap leather that shrink and go brittle at a drop of water and they also look disgusting - definitely not the kind of attention you want pulled onto your dog. : victory:


Pimperella said:


> Erm. So when they lie down and drop their legs completely, you just walk the other way? Erm, don't think so, you kinda just end up the otherside of the dog which is still lying down lol suppose if it's muddy you could just drag then along on their bellies or side :whistling2::lol2:


Well actually I can't see anywhere I said anything about that, I was talking about _pulling_, you know, the reason they were made. As it goes, I'm not really a big advocate of Halti's, Gentle Leaders, or any other head collar for Dogs on the market.


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

vonnie said:


> How dare you make assumptions about me because I own a staffy cross.
> 
> That's exactly the attitude that puts decent owners off rehoming bull breeds.
> 
> ...



I know you are being responsible hun (which is why i posted that in my post). I have a Dog agressive Dog so know what you are going through, like you we try to walk where there aren't many other Dogs (just for a quiet life).  It is no fun when they decide they don't like a Dog & start leaping about being a stupid idiot. You could try putting a muzzle on for short periods of time indoors (say 5-10 mins) so he gets used to wearing it, try peanut butter smeared on the inside. Then praise & treats when he keeps it on without trying to get it off. Try to make it fun, that way he will more likely accept the muzzle. Good luck hun & please let me know how you get on :2thumb:.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

I had a staffy that did this with a plastic one. I had never agreed on muzzles before but when i had him i had no choice. I used one while i was training as to get out my house you had to walk past horses and he would jump at them and try and nip them without the muzzle.

Well done you taking on such a special boy and taking into consideration his needs.


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## Emmabeth (Sep 1, 2009)

oops there was a stray '.' in my link! http://positively.com/forum/


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

temeraire said:


> But these people don't seem to be doing that. Just want bigger better harder faster muzzle. Don't you worry, I support deed not breed. But just as long as owners support their dogs whatever 'type'.


I'm glad the OP has finally come onto this thread and justified what she is asking.

I read this thread a few days ago and couldn't advise her on her specific problem, so left it. Then I come back and read tripe like this!

You've been on this forum a few months now, so surely have read the OPs threads about this dog that's never had a chance before she rescued it, or did the title of this thread draw your attention to criticise? She is trying so hard to turn him around into a good reliable dog and is asking if anyone can advise her on whether or not a leather or strong wire muzzle would be better.

Surely you could have _asked_ her if she was seeking professional help rather than assume she wasn't and criticise her.

At times this forum and people's attitudes just leave me speechless!


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## Exotic Mad (Jul 11, 2009)

feorag said:


> At times this forum and people's attitudes just leave me speechless!


as above! it amazes me that people can't ask for a single bit of advise without people assuming they aren't doing right by their animal and critisising instead of giving the advice asked for.

Good Luck with this boy it sounds like he's in the best hands :no1:


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