# Is It Legal??



## billymc10lfc (May 8, 2010)

Hi, First off i would like to say a big 'hello' to everyone here at Reptile Forums, now i currently have a few leopard geckos, a few Ball Pythons, and a few Bearded Dragons, i LOVE reptiles. 
Now i am thinking of breeding them because im looking to start up my own pet shop but currently do not have the funds, i dont intend on getting all the cash from my pets, thats just wrong, but i was hoping it could give me that little extra. However, i do not know if there is any law against me selling them, i live in Liverpool UK and was wondering if anyone on here knew of any infringements i would cause by doing this?? any reply is much appreciated


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## karlj (Apr 26, 2010)

Right, ok. Officially you can't do any kind of work in the UK without paying tax you can even give me a fiver to take a dump in a policemans helmit (may conflict with gambling laws). If you are buying animals to breed to sell then you are a breeder which is work and you should legally declare this as taxable income, that is the law. Usually common sense prevails when people are just knocking out babies to cover costs (like half of wales). However don't expect a tax inspector to have any common sense when some little chav who you sold a "duff" reptile he killed grasses you up. Oh and then there is the council too.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

billymc10lfc said:


> Hi, First off i would like to say a big 'hello' to everyone here at Reptile Forums, now i currently have a few leopard geckos, a few Ball Pythons, and a few Bearded Dragons, i LOVE reptiles.
> Now i am thinking of breeding them because im looking to start up my own pet shop but currently do not have the funds, i dont intend on getting all the cash from my pets, thats just wrong, but i was hoping it could give me that little extra. However, i do not know if there is any law against me selling them, i live in Liverpool UK and was wondering if anyone on here knew of any infringements i would cause by doing this?? any reply is much appreciated


You can breed and sell reptiles and it is legal to do so will only be classed as a buisness if you earn over a certan amount (not sure what that is) anything under that would be classed as a hobby breeder, You can raise money to open a pet shop any legal way you want but I doubt you would earn what you need just from breeding your pets.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

karlj said:


> Right, ok. Officially you can't do any kind of work in the UK without paying tax you can even give me a fiver to take a dump in a policemans helmit (may conflict with gambling laws). If you are buying animals to breed to sell then you are a breeder which is work and you should legally declare this as taxable income, that is the law. Usually common sense prevails when people are just knocking out babies to cover costs (like half of wales). However don't expect a tax inspector to have any common sense when some little chav who you sold a "duff" reptile he killed grasses you up. Oh and then there is the council too.



Rubbish, are you on drugs?


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## billymc10lfc (May 8, 2010)

thanks for the quick reply guys, but im still a bit confused :blush: 1persons saying yes its legal the other saying no its not legal :lol2: as i said i dont intend on continually using my pets as money machines to pay for the business i said i was thinking it would merely provide a bit of extra cash to help it along the way :2thumb:


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## karlj (Apr 26, 2010)

If it is deemed that your pets are for the purpose of breeding then the intention is to make a profit which make you a non registered non tax paying breeder. If you want to know more look through Website of the UK government : Directgov. Your gerbils popping out a few sprogs and flogging them in the paper is one thing. Having 20 breeding pairs in your garage with raising tanks and a regular stream of cash into your bank with no reciepts is different. For the most part people get away with it and so they bloody should, but the law DOES say different if wants to be funny about things.


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

billymc10lfc said:


> thanks for the quick reply guys, but im still a bit confused :blush: 1persons saying yes its legal the other saying no its not legal :lol2: as i said i dont intend on continually using my pets as money machines to pay for the business i said i was thinking it would merely provide a bit of extra cash to help it along the way :2thumb:



You would need a lot of "pets" to breed from to make any profit.

Take off time, food, heating, vet fees and sundries and you will find using pets to make money is a waste of time.

Even shops buy livestock in as breeding on a small scale is a loss.

As for the tax thing, you are allowed to earn a certain amount before it's taxable, take no notice of the silly person about, they clearly know nothing.

One question, how old are you?


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## billymc10lfc (May 8, 2010)

karlj said:


> If it is deemed that your pets are for the purpose of breeding then the intention is to make a profit which make you a non registered non tax paying breeder. If you want to know more look through Website of the UK government : Directgov. Your gerbils popping out a few sprogs and flogging them in the paper is one thing. Having 20 breeding pairs in your garage with raising tanks and a regular stream of cash into your bank with no reciepts is different. For the most part people get away with it and so they bloody should, but the law DOES say different if wants to be funny about things.


Cheers, me thinks i should really check it out with the government just incase  dont wana be getting in trouble now do i lol


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## billymc10lfc (May 8, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> You would need a lot of"pets" to breed from to make any profit.
> 
> Take off time, food, heating, vet fees and sundries and you will find using pets to make money is a waste of time.
> 
> ...


im 20 in july, if you're thinking that's a bit young to be thinking about owing my own pet shop, my father had a pet shop a few years ago and i was always there helping out becasue i LOVED IT lol so i know quite a bit about what goes on in a pet shop


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## EdGeorge (Apr 24, 2010)

billymc10lfc said:


> im 20 in july, if you're thinking that's a bit young to be thinking about owing my own pet shop, my father had a pet shop a few years ago and i was always there helping out becasue i LOVED IT lol so i know quite a bit about what goes on in a pet shop



No I wasn't thinking that, I was thinking more on the tax thing.

Mind you the tax would only be on profit and you are a long way from that at the moment.


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## karlj (Apr 26, 2010)

OK this is cats but same deal Bengal Cat Forums :: View topic - Hobby Breeders

This woman is saying it like it is and it doesnt matter what animal or type of business it is. The Uk govenment thinks it has a right to 17.5 of every quid usually taken at source when you buy/ spend your money. So if you are breeding and selling pets the government does not get its 17.5 and this make mr govenment very grumpy.


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## billymc10lfc (May 8, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> No I wasn't thinking that, I was thinking more on the tax thing.
> 
> Mind you the tax would only be on profit and you are a long way from that at the moment.


haha ok thanks, well thanks for the replys


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## karlj (Apr 26, 2010)

EdGeorge said:


> Mind you the tax would only be on profit and you are a long way from that at the moment.


If the intention is to make a profit, you need to be registered as business or self employed. Also it's combined with all of your income so if your working that will be added with any income from a "business"* and spunking all of your money and saying there was no profit wont work unless you have paperwork.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/classified-chat/149750-pet-shop-license-tax-question.html


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## billymc10lfc (May 8, 2010)

karlj said:


> If the intention is to make a profit, you need to be registered as business or self employed. Also it's combined with all of your income so if your working that will be added with any income from a "business"* and spunking all of your money and saying there was no profit wont work unless you have paperwork.
> 
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/classified-chat/149750-pet-shop-license-tax-question.html


cheers! :2thumb:


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

Okay, if you were to sell your baby reptiles as a business you would need to register as being self employed, and when you get your tax return every april, fill it in according to what you earned from your reptile sales. You would also need to get a PSL (Pet shop licence). To do this, you need to apply to your local council who will come out an inspect your house. 

HOWEVER, if you were just selling excess animals (as I do, and many others) you wouldnt have to claim it or apply for a pet shop licence. Many people are 'hobbyist breeders', and sell their baby animals on because they are 'surplus to requirements'. This is perfectly legal. People make good money from doing it with every day goods on eBay.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

karlj said:


> OK this is cats but same deal Bengal Cat Forums :: View topic - Hobby Breeders
> 
> This woman is saying it like it is and it doesnt matter what animal or type of business it is. The Uk govenment thinks it has a right to 17.5 of every quid usually taken at source when you buy/ spend your money. So if you are breeding and selling pets the government does not get its 17.5 and this make mr govenment very grumpy.


I dont think you understand at all how breeding reptiles works, you wont make any money at all unless you have rooms full of breeding animals, In most cases just breeding your pet reptiles will cost you money as after buying the animals and feeding and heating them you will be very lucky if you have made a profit at all.


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

rum&coke said:


> I dont think you understand at all how breeding reptiles works, you wont make any money at all unless you have rooms full of breeding animals, In most cases just breeding your pet reptiles will cost you money as after buying the animals and feeding and heating them you will be very lucky if you have made a profit at all.


 
However that wasnt the question, he asked if it was legal or not. Im sure as the OP has already thought about a shop they are well aware of the fact that breeding animals makes no money! There are millions of threads about it!


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

Mujician said:


> However that wasnt the question, he asked if it was legal or not. Im sure as the OP has already thought about a shop they are well aware of the fact that breeding animals makes no money! There are millions of threads about it!


It was not aimed at the OP I think his question has been answered ,It was aimed at the other person who is jabbering on about having to pay tax on any babys sold and clearly has no clue


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## karlj (Apr 26, 2010)

rum&coke said:


> It was not aimed at the OP I think his question has been answered ,It was aimed at the other person who is jabbering on about having to pay tax on any babys sold and clearly has no clue


That silly person is me, and I am just pointing out what the tax laws are, yes you are allowed to to sell excess pets as a "hobbist breeder". However "hobbist breeder" is not defined in any concrete way in the TAX legislation and it causes confusion. The definition of "hobbist breeder" is a matter of opinion and your doesn't count when talking to Mr Taxman. 

So if you are breeding and selling animals and don't make a profit it is still a business and there are many bussineses that don't make money. I think where some of the simple folk are getting confused is between "business" and "succesful business" but either way taxman will want to know.

As already mentioned if your not making any money and you think you have a number of breeding animals that could be deemed excessive, just fill out the paperwork then your in the clear and theres no profit so no tax.

If your still confused lets do it like this.

I buy an oven I bake two cakes I can only eat one so i give the other to my neighbours. That is Ok.

If I buy three industrial sized ovens and start baking lots of cakes and advertise them for sale but am stupid enough to sell them for less than the cost and make a loss.

I am

A, Going to get owned by the taxman for not declaring being selfemployed.
B, Going to get owned by the council for not going through the correct channels for change of use thingybob.
C, A prat.


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## Mujician (Mar 7, 2007)

karlj said:


> That silly person is me, and I am just pointing out what the tax laws are, yes you are allowed to to sell excess pets as a "hobbist breeder". However "hobbist breeder" is not defined in any concrete way in the TAX legislation and it causes confusion. The definition of "hobbist breeder" is a matter of opinion and your doesn't count when talking to Mr Taxman.
> 
> So if you are breeding and selling animals and don't make a profit it is still a business and there are many bussineses that don't make money. I think where some of the simple folk are getting confused is between "business" and "succesful business" but either way taxman will want to know.
> 
> ...


 
However we are all advertising animals here, and some of us have websites advertising animals for sale. All of my animals are what the government would term as 'surplus'. Just like we all sell our surplus junk on ebay. If you want any info on getting self employed etc, send me a pm.


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

I just had a quick google on tax 
And you can earn £97.00 per week before you pay tax.
you can have a hobby which brings you in a small income. If the income is incidental, and by this I mean that you are not operating with the intention of making a profit, then the income does not have to be declared unless it exceeds £800 a year.
All earnings shoul be declared but basically you have a personal allowance of £5035. Therefore if you declare this amount you will not have to pay any personal income tax
Most reptiles are sold as surplus a biproduct of the hobby and dont even count.
I doubt the tax man would be interested in the money the op is gonna make if any.


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## Meko (Apr 29, 2007)

karlj said:


> I am A prat.


we already established that.


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## karlj (Apr 26, 2010)

Meko said:


> we already established that.


Nice to see some wit and theres me thinking you were a THICK **** :lol2:


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## karlj (Apr 26, 2010)

rum&coke said:


> I just had a quick google on tax


About time :2thumb:



rum&coke said:


> And you can earn £97.00 per week before you pay tax.


Not strictly true for everyone but your getting there.:2thumb:



rum&coke said:


> you can have a hobby which brings you in a small income. If the income is incidental, and by this I mean that you are not operating with the intention of making a profit.


correct :2thumb:



rum&coke said:


> Income does not have to be declared unless it exceeds £800 a year.


The dole office won't agree.



rum&coke said:


> All earnings should be declared





rum&coke said:


> but basically you have a personal allowance of £5035.


Depending on which tax code you have.



rum&coke said:


> Therefore if you declare this amount you will not have to pay any personal income tax


Although there may be some inquiry into how you managed to live for a whole year on five grand.



rum&coke said:


> Most reptiles are sold as surplus a bioproduct of the hobby and dont even count.


Define surplus.



rum&coke said:


> I doubt the tax man would be interested in the money the op is gonna make if any.


Oh dear a slight relapse I see :whip: Don't make assumptions.

Anyway the OP knows all this thats why he asked the question in the first place which means he is on the right track.

Have a hobby make a few beer token if you can and keep yer gob shut.

Or declare your selfemployed. Do what you want and just send the form back with some numbers on it once a year. :whistling2:


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## rum&coke (Apr 19, 2009)

karlj said:


> About time :2thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what makes you an all knowing tax expert, What is the difference with people selling non live goods on ebay and people selling animals on a reptile forum, Are you seriously saying every one needs to declare every penny made on a private sale of any kind? or are you saying the tax rules are different for reptiles just because they are live animals and not old T.V's
Unless the OP sets himself up as a business or makes huge proffits he is doing no wrong as far as not letting the tax man know.
he wants to raise money to start a business by breeding and selling the babys ,he is along way off from having a pet shop or a business so why start bring the tax man into things at this point


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## corny girl (Aug 30, 2009)

Looked into all this when i started breeding rabbits years ago. Because it is a hobby you are not deemed to be earning money as all you are doing is selling off your surplus animals so you don't have to tell the Tax office anything. Also once you take out all outgoings if you wish then it is highly unlikely that you would make enough profit to worry the Tax man anyway :whistling2:.


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## stigler (Mar 7, 2010)

*tax*

i run a vending business and i turnover around 56k per year you have to earn 60k before you pay vat man and all you do is add running costs to turn over each week and your profits gone mate also you dont have to put everything through the books lol good luck with the pet shop hope i works out for you


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## billymc10lfc (May 8, 2010)

stigler said:


> i run a vending business and i turnover around 56k per year you have to earn 60k before you pay vat man and all you do is add running costs to turn over each week and your profits gone mate also you dont have to put everything through the books lol good luck with the pet shop hope i works out for you


Thanks :2thumb: i hope it does too


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