# Dalmation rat.



## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I've been looking and trying to decide what my Patch is.

I'll have to get more upto date pics when the batteries have charged but he look almost identical to this one in this link...the one taht says dalmation.

AFRMA Fancy Rats - Marked

I also have variegated like the one above named variegated but Patch is different.
He is from a vari buck to an agouti berkshire rex doe.

I thought we didnt' have dallies here yet???
Or is he just a fluke????


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## ami_j (Jan 6, 2007)

pretty rats....im thinking dalmation could be overmarked variegated but im sure one of the breeders will know...it just looks like a variegated with more white lol


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Cant wait for piccies i love marked rats 

and with being a fluke not sure have you had others in litter likr that one you have?


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Whether he's a fluke or not, if he looks like that, he'll be stunning!!! :flrt:


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

Could just be some kind of overmarked vari??


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Here's pics of him from a few days old.


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And now at 284grms and 8 weeks old. some are with flash. He is very darl black where his colour is.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Lover said:


> Cant wait for piccies i love marked rats
> 
> and with being a fluke not sure have you had others in litter likr that one you have?


Here's his sister but she is more variegated as she has the head markings as well.
From what I can see with the american rats a dalmation is just a variegated without the head colour.
His sister is rex coat as well.

As a baby.
I'll have to find the other pics of her. I'm keeping her so I can get upto date pics tomorrow. She is gorgeous.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

I so wanted him when he was teeny and now he's grown up, he's even tastier!!!


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I know he's massive for his age as well.

I dont' know what he's supposed to be..I think he's as much like the american dalmation as I've seen...but he's lush anyway.

I'm going to repeat the mating in a while to see if I get anymore.
He's from the second litter of the doe who retained sperm. 
You never know there may be some more shortly.

It appears the buck is the one making the does retain as I've had a different agouti doe do the same having been mated to him.
This doe lost the entire first litter as she gave birth prematurely but is now pregnant again having not been near a buck since losing her litter.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Have you got Essex in there? They look like normal mismarked baldies to me? I've got tonnes in my current litter.  ETA: D'uh not essex related, can't be (didn't read parentage before posting). I'll bet money on roan instead though as that's recessive and those spots are very faded.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Have you got Essex in there? They look like normal mismarked baldies to me? I've got tonnes in my current litter.  ETA: D'uh not essex related, can't be (didn't read parentage before posting). I'll bet money on roan instead though as that's recessive and those spots are very faded.


 
I've checked the Grandmother and she may well be baldie to be honest. I got her from someone in Manchester. She has the blue markings on her head with the triangle.
She looks very like the one on the NFRS site but in russian blue instead. There's not roan though.

So which ones out of the litter would I keep to breed on?

I'm still keeping Patch though as beside his fantastic temperament he looks lovely as well.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

Let me know, Dawn, if you end up with any "extras"  I do love splodgy marked rats!!!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

saxon said:


> I've checked the Grandmother and she may well be baldie to be honest. I got her from someone in Manchester. She has the blue markings on her head with the triangle.
> She looks very like the one on the NFRS site but in russian blue instead. There's not roan though.
> 
> So which ones out of the litter would I keep to breed on?
> ...


Essex is dominant though, which says that one of the parents must be Essex based for this one to be affected by it. I would really love to see the parents if you have pics as Essex is my thing and I am trying to get as much info together as possible on how it works. 

I am planning a baldie rex litter later this month that I am dead excited about, shall share the results. This current litter are from an overmarked essex (genetically berkshire + essex I think) to unmarked pairing. In theory I shouldn't have these weird babies, but I suspect it's because the berkshire in the mix (grandmother in this case) comes from variegated lines, which seems to throw these splodgeys as I call them. 

Markings don't show up very well because the ones that look most like yours are CP lol:









Cinnamon splodgey thing (they look like Essex mixed with vari)









Dark phase CP splodgey boy.









Top buck when younger, with similar sister. Haven't got doe update pics yet, but she's the only splodgey one anyway. 









Baldie from previous litter (his mother is sister of dad of current litter lol).








#
Mother of above boy, sister to father of current litter.


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## mattm (Jul 18, 2008)

The markings around the ears suggest they are mismarks and not actually true dalmation


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

They are what made me immediately think Baldie to be honest but I don't see how it's possible unless one of the parents turns out to be Essex based. The fading of the spots too. There's something Essex or roany going on there.


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## Amalthea (Oct 2, 2007)

*steals pretty splodgy ratties and runs*


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Here are pics of the mother and father and the half sister to the mother.
Sorry my pics are crap.

Father...Bog Boy.


















Mother....Barbara..agouti berkshire...she does had a very small head spot.


















8 week old half sister to the agouti rex doe.......Again she has a head spot so maybe essex????








Markings on back.








Belly spots.

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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Can I take a guess that the father's mother is the suspected baldie? I see fading on his coat too. Also telltale sign of overmarked essex, the white spot on the neck.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Can I take a guess that the father's mother is the suspected baldie? I see fading on his coat too. Also telltale sign of overmarked essex, the white spot on the neck.


 
No you'd be worng...
I have no idea what the parents to the father are. I got him from someone on here. I don't think he knows what they were either.
He is well over a year I'd expect him to have faded a lot more had he been roan!!!!
The possible baldie is the mothers mother and the mother to the little black and white doe.
The father to the agouti rex berkie is an agouti rex berkie buck.
The father to the little black and white girl is a british blue as I 'thought' the possible baldie doe was british but she is russian blue. I got all balck berkies and this little girl from that mating.

There are very obvious head spots on the two girls but I'm crap with a camera.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Roan can be carried without expressing (it is recessive), I didn't say Big Boy was a roan? I would suspect Big Boy's parents have essex in their lines, I would've put money on it but I don't breed roan so maybe the same things that look essex to me would suggest roan to someone else. To be hones they could be anything, but I doubt the grandmother is Baldie if there were no essex based babies in her offspring. She was probably mismarked capped looking at her daughters. To be honest without knowing parentage and the lines it's just a guessing game. Patch definitely seems to have fading to his spots though.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Roan can be carried without expressing (it is recessive), I didn't say Big Boy was a roan? I would suspect Big Boy's parents have essex in their lines, I would've put money on it but I don't breed roan so maybe the same things that look essex to me would suggest roan to someone else. To be hones they could be anything, but I doubt the grandmother is Baldie if there were no essex based babies in her offspring. She was probably mismarked capped looking at her daughters. To be honest without knowing parentage and the lines it's just a guessing game. Patch definitely seems to have fading to his spots though.


So the two does, from different fathers, having head spots would not imply they were essex?
I don't know how essex would be shown other than having a head spot!!!!!:bash:


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Essex fades the coat too, although in black it can look like a berkshire for some reason apparently. Berkshires can have headspots too, it's actually desirable for them to have them. It's more common in the berkshires from variegated lines too. An essex should look lighter than a berkshire in the same colour, it will have its most concentrated colour down its spine, and will fade gradually into a white stomach. A berkshire will have a white tum (to varying extents depending on how good it is) with distinct edging. A berkshire shouldn't have a faded coat like an essex. The girls you showed look like a berkshire and an overmarked variegated. I don't see fading on either? They're lovely


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Forgot to say for a rat to be essex or essex based (eg. baldie) it HAS to have an essex parent. It can not be carried.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Essex fades the coat too, although in black it can look like a berkshire for some reason apparently. Berkshires can have headspots too, it's actually desirable for them to have them. It's more common in the berkshires from variegated lines too. An essex should look lighter than a berkshire in the same colour, it will have its most concentrated colour down its spine, and will fade gradually into a white stomach. A berkshire will have a white tum (to varying extents depending on how good it is) with distinct edging. A berkshire shouldn't have a faded coat like an essex. The girls you showed look like a berkshire and an overmarked variegated. I don't see fading on either? They're lovely


Well when these shows get going again I'm bringing some down for verification.
I have no way of seeing 'proper' variegated or pearls that I like or essex.
I know I have DPP essex and I'm still looking at trying for cinnie pearl and maybe pearl merle as well with my old boy.
I have a DPP doe that I think is pregnant to him. She is older though so may not get pregnant. She's had a litter before but when she was very young. Of course I'd only get a small litter if I was lucky enough to get a litter at all.

Overmarked vari being that there is too much white??? I always get it the wrong way round.
I do have a black vari that might be a better one but she is going to Alloa this week!!! She has a lot of black though and I thought they shouldn't have???


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Some comparisons:









Cinnamon (with white feet, eek)









Cinnamon essex - see how much paler it is?









An agouti essex next to an unmarked agouti, essex baby will fade even more with moults into adulthood until.....









....Agouti essex (bit overmarked in that the white extends a bit far up his sides, but shows the fading well).









Agouti berkshire doe out of variegated lines


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

Pics of Patches sisters.

Black vari????essex????


















Agouti blazed vari rex?????


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

They both look like variegateds to me. I have never had a black essex here, might have to get one so I can compare lol.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I think they are vari's.
I wasnt' sure which to keep but decided on the agouti as she is a bit quieter than the black. Again I'm not sure how much colour they are meant to have!!!!!


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't do variegateds, know nowt about them lol. I'm a bit fed up that I've got these splodgies to be honest as they should've been a step closer to show-worthy essex this litter and they're a step away most of them. :lol2:


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## GeekyGoth (Jul 23, 2009)

Ohhhhh I have nothing of value to add as i don't know the ins and outs of breeding but OMG THEY ARE GORGEOUS


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

saxon said:


> Well when these shows get going again I'm bringing some down for verification.
> I have no way of seeing 'proper' variegated or pearls that I like or essex.
> I know I have DPP essex and I'm still looking at trying for cinnie pearl and maybe pearl merle as well with my old boy.
> I have a DPP doe that I think is pregnant to him. She is older though so may not get pregnant. She's had a litter before but when she was very young. Of course I'd only get a small litter if I was lucky enough to get a litter at all.
> ...


Sorry, must've missed this one! :blush:

I will be at FREC in November if that's any use. Might make a NERS show or two if my grant ever comes through. :2thumb: Would love to see yours. 

Overmarked = too much white yes. I always found that really hard to get my head round as I thought the markings are the colour but it doesn't work like that apparently lol. I think that's to reflect the genetic side of it as when you think about a "wild" rat having the marking genes add white it does make sense. I imagine them being painted with a roller with white Dulux lol.


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## MistressSadako (Jan 17, 2009)

KathyM said:


> I am planning a baldie rex litter later this month that I am dead excited about


OMGZ. You are making these babies for me, yes?


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

KathyM said:


> Sorry, must've missed this one! :blush:
> 
> I will be at FREC in November if that's any use. Might make a NERS show or two if my grant ever comes through. :2thumb: Would love to see yours.
> 
> Overmarked = too much white yes. I always found that really hard to get my head round as I thought the markings are the colour but it doesn't work like that apparently lol. I think that's to reflect the genetic side of it as when you think about a "wild" rat having the marking genes add white it does make sense. I imagine them being painted with a roller with white Dulux lol.


I might be able to get to the shows if I have a car at the time.
It's always a good few hours from me though to whatever show I go to.


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## JulieNoob (Jul 9, 2008)

saxon said:


> I might be able to get to the shows if I have a car at the time.
> It's always a good few hours from me though to whatever show I go to.



How about NERS Newcastle in December? Might that be your closest???


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

Ooo I wonder if I could tie that show in with visiting family? Won't be able to bring rats if I come, because my family hate them, but might come to that one. 

Stacey - yes of course! Sling me an email if you want to go on the list :2thumb:


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

JulieNoob said:


> How about NERS Newcastle in December? Might that be your closest???


Well yes I suppose but they are a law unto themselves I'm told!!!!
Never been to one of their shows.



KathyM said:


> Ooo I wonder if I could tie that show in with visiting family? Won't be able to bring rats if I come, because my family hate them, but might come to that one.
> 
> Stacey - yes of course! Sling me an email if you want to go on the list :2thumb:


If you can get there I'd love to meet up. Not that I've got space for you but I'm sure my daughter would have a spare bedroom if you were stuck. She's only ove rthe road from me.
You'd have to love animals though as she has loads of cats, rats and dogs!!!!!

Any rats you would want to bring would be welcome though!!!!


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## Lover (Apr 3, 2007)

Lovely rats saxon!:flrt:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

I went to the NERS Christmas show just for a look around last year and I thought it was a lovely show! There were a few stalls and lots of rats to see and a lovey buffet lunch provided.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

feorag said:


> I went to the NERS Christmas show just for a look around last year and I thought it was a lovely show! There were a few stalls and lots of rats to see and a lovey buffet lunch provided.


 
I went to one 3/4 years ago, without rats and just for a look, I was just observing how things went on.
It seemed that there was a lot of 'sniping' and nasty remarks going on. This was in earshot of total strangers as no-one knew me at all.

Maybe things have changed!!!

I may go and see if it's a bit nicer. I do know quite a few of the people who go to the local shows now.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Hmm..... interesting. I was just so rapt with the rats I wasn't listening to anything anyone was saying. Having said that you do get that at most shows - there will always be the bitchy ones, whatever animal is being shown.


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## KathyM (Jan 17, 2009)

It's a shame when things like this happen as people remember the bad, it's natural, and it ruins the good parts. I can honestly say I've only been to a couple of NERS shows but compared to some other shows I've been to they have been really lovely. Same with NFRS shows. I have heard bitching at shows, I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but I haven't got time for people who wouldn't say something to someone's face, and they're best ignored, although it's a shame they put newcomers off. 

Dawn - thanks ever so much for the offer, it's really kind of you and would love to meet you and your rats. I'm on a student budget so would probably be on the coach anyway (they don't let rats on) but would still love to catch up and have a natter. :2thumb:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Have to agree! Nasty bitchy comments about a new exhibitor's cat has put many a newbie off showing their cat again and I think that's reprehensible. Over my years of showing cats and running shows, a lot of people have come to me to say that someone's been nasty to them about their cat, or they've overheard someone passing a nasty comment about their cat. 

So sad!


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## ladyboid (Nov 25, 2007)

loving the rex varis Dawn , and the blazed one is adorable... I have recently had some born here.


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## saxon (Feb 26, 2007)

I've seen the bitchiness in cat, dog and rat shows. Funnily enough I've never heard or seen anything like it when I was showing ferrets!!!
I think it's a different kind of person who shows ferrets.

KathyM you are more than welcome anytime. We'll hav eto sort out Somehting.

Kelly,

I'm chuffed as muck with the babies I'm getting even if they are mis/overmarked. I think they are so pretty.
I'm going to have to get down your way again, book into a travelodge, then we can swap some lines again.

Just delivered 8 rat kittens, vari's and RBA's, in Scotland. Thankfully the owners are over the moon with temperaments and the babies in general.
Still up here supposedly having time alone with John.


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