# Koi Carp...



## Lizard-man (Aug 18, 2008)

My Koi Carp brick pond will hopfully be done this weekend. doing it myself and trying to work around mother nature giving me good days..... ( around 3 weekends a year in the UK, lol) also the first brick structure I will have ever built so hoping it will withstand all the weight of the water...
Have to admit it has been fun. Its 2.5m(l) x 2.0m(w) x 1.0m (d) and starting to look HUGE  will be the first tike keeping Koi, anyone know how many I could keep in there?

Comments Welcome : victory:




































Cant wait to get it finished, just really hoping it keeps the water in and dosent flood mine and my neighbours gardens


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## tricky (Sep 29, 2007)

looking good.

not doing a bottom drain?

how about a skimmer? (very handy )

what sort of filter u going for?


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

not much room for koi really. potentially gonna grow to just short of 3 foot and your ponds 6'6" by 8'4" so I wouldn't have any more that 4 koi in there.


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## Bartfarst (Oct 7, 2008)

1m deep isn't really deep enough for Koi but as long as the pond isn't in too exposed an area and the winter freeze doesn't get too bad, they should survive the winter. Ideally, Koi ponds should be 2m deep and not less than about 4 feet, and if you're stocking Koi then it's often viewed that 1000 gallons is the minimum pond volume - 4500 litres, compared to the 2500 litres you're building. You should also look at the volume of filtration material you have for ammonia-consuming bacteria to thrive on. The filter system needs to hold at least 5 cubic feet of filter material per 1000 gallons, or half that for yours.

There are lots of rules of thumb about how many inches of Koi you can have per square foot of pond surface area, but more important than that is the size and quality of filtration system. You’ll probably have seen that a filter system rated for a 5000 gallon goldfish pond is only rated for a 2500 gallon Koi pond – Koi need very highly filtered water, good oxygen levels and really good control on pH and ammonia, or you’ll not have Koi for very long. 

You also need to introduce them at a slow rate to your pond – don’t go throwing in the pond’s capacity of fish to start with, or they’ll all snuff it. You have to start with a small percentage of the pond’s capacity and build it up so that the natural bacteria in the water and filter medium can develop in order to break down the ammonia the fish produce.

If everything else is good in terms of filtration and oxygenation, then 50 inches of Koi per 1000 gallons of pond is about right – or about 27” of fish for your pond, so you can have 9x 3 inch fish, or 4x 6 inch fish, or 2x 12 inch fish. Don’t underestimate how much they will grow!

If your filtration system is very good – and fully mature water/filters with a well-established nitrogen cycle, the pond may hold twice that but you will be cleaning your filters very regularly to keep up with the waste the fish produce.


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Bartfarst said:


> 1m deep isn't really deep enough for Koi but as long as the pond isn't in too exposed an area and the winter freeze doesn't get too bad, they should survive the winter. Ideally, Koi ponds should be 2m deep and not less than about 4 feet, and if you're stocking Koi then it's often viewed that 1000 gallons is the minimum pond volume - 4500 litres, compared to the 2500 litres you're building. You should also look at the volume of filtration material you have for ammonia-consuming bacteria to thrive on. The filter system needs to hold at least 5 cubic feet of filter material per 1000 gallons, or half that for yours.
> 
> There are lots of rules of thumb about how many inches of Koi you can have per square foot of pond surface area, but more important than that is the size and quality of filtration system. You’ll probably have seen that a filter system rated for a 5000 gallon goldfish pond is only rated for a 2500 gallon Koi pond – Koi need very highly filtered water, good oxygen levels and really good control on pH and ammonia, or you’ll not have Koi for very long.
> 
> ...


what he/she said lol.

The whole inch per gallon rule stuff is a little out dated though. A lot of people use the 1" of fish per gallon of water. So that's 75% of a neon tetra per gallon? But an 48" red tail cat could live in a 48 gallon tank? I've always found that when you've got the right stocking level you'll just know. It will look right, if you get what I mean. I know it's not the best way for a newbie to do it but most people can tell if a tank is under/over stocked. You can also see when the amount of fish in a tank looks good for the tank size.

The best way I think, is to add fish slowly and monitor the water quality. If the water stays good, then try a few more fish. the time for the water quality to come back to good after the small spikes after fish introduction will gradually increase. Once they stop reaching your pre-determined level (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 25 ppm of nitrate, lower obviously better) than that's the limit. It's a fine balancing act that requires a lot of paitience but it does work well.


John


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## bullit (Oct 10, 2008)

put as less as you can in. they grow so quick espec the chags. you may want to make some housing for the filter. oasis do a cheap pump and filter combo without braking the bank. as said youll need amonia, nitrate, ph test kits to keep water right


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Personally I think OASE make the best pond gear. More expensive than some other similar brands but it lasts and works.

I've got oase pumps well over their guarantees and still going strong. Obviously the wearable parts will need replacing every now and then but 15 quid every 4-5 years is a lot cheaper than a new pump every 2-3 years


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## louodge (Sep 26, 2008)

how many can you have in there? i had 6 mirror carp in 180 liters they grew from 3" to 8" each then i relesed them to a local pond to grow more. i have caught a couple of them and there about 4lbs now 

so just get up to a dozen and if they get big people will always buy em then get new ones 

but personaly i would go deeper 

ps i can get 3"-6" mirror, common, crusion carp, leathers ,lineers, fully scaled mirrors all the time all top A1 quallity if you want some P.M me no charge just have to collect from blackpool


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

louodge said:


> how many can you have in there? i had 6 mirror carp in 180 liters they grew from 3" to 8" each then i relesed them to a local pond to grow more. i have caught a couple of them and there about 4lbs now
> 
> so just get up to a dozen and if they get big people will always buy em then get new ones
> 
> ...


I wouldn't post that you've been releasing animals into the wild. It's just a little bit illegal without a license.

6 8" carp in 180 litres is pretty bad. I'm not gonna have a go at you. But I'd imagine there's a few people on here who would consider it. (BTT :whistling2.

Lastly. Buying fish to sell when they get too big is irresponsible and stressful to the fish. Not only are they restricted with growing space. But then they get turfed out of their home, just to be put somewhere completely different. yes this happens when selling adult fish. But doing it just because you wanted them when they were little and don't anymore is out of order. It's the same issue with Green iggies. Although when someone does it to a lizard it's wrong. But of course, they are only fish after all.


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## louodge (Sep 26, 2008)

the fish irelesed were wild caught origionaly 



> Buying fish to sell when they get too big is irresponsible and stressful to the fish. Not only are they restricted with growing space. But then they get turfed out of their home, just to be put somewhere completely different


 i personaly know of of a 34lb 4oz mirror carp what is for sale now at a fish shop with plenty of 8-24lb fish also for sale

and i also know a fishery manager who constantly moves fish aroud when they get bigger he moves to a bigger lake(happens all over the country)


and finaly green iggies are not native to this country and stand little chance in the wild where as carp are not origionaly native to this country untill aprox 800 years ago!! but have bread sucsessfuly nd are growing to excess of 65lbs in england!!

im not having a go but just defending my self

please do not take offence


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## louodge (Sep 26, 2008)

sorry but check this thred out http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/aquatics-classifieds/199040-koi-sale.html
might be a dcent person to get a few carp from


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

The point about the green iggie was not about releasing into the wild. It was about people buying animals with the intention of just getting rid of them when they get too big. It's not fair on the animal/s involved.



Fisherys and fishing lakes move fish about a lot yes. But the whole practice of fisherys and fishing lakes is very stressful to the fish. How would you like to be dragged around by a hook on the end of some string for a while. Held up, not being able to breath and then put back. Just for the same thing to happen, time and time again.


as for shops selling big fish. It's stressful for any fish to be moved around constantly. Which is why when buying a fish you should have the intention of keeping it for it's whole life. Or at least providing it with a long term home until the time comes when you need to move it. And then ensuring it has a suitable home to go to.

I don't know the actual law of catching, raising and then re-releasing but I though you have to be licensed? And that removing the animal to release again at a later date had to be for a reason like rehabilitation. If you had been caught you would need proof that the release was legal. I believe it's a pretty hefty fine if you get charged.


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## louodge (Sep 26, 2008)

well i am a member of several fishing clubs and i personaly asked permission to take the fish from a certain water and i relesed them into another club water where there are larger fish in tip top condition so explain why i would get a fine???????


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

I don't know what the system is for club to club. Although I thought you had to have approval from the correct authority to move carp around the country.

like I said im not 100%. But surely there must be regulations due to KHV being a big problem with all species of carp.


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## louodge (Sep 26, 2008)

i see yo live in mitlton keynes where khv but if you check you will see that there is no khv in the north
sorry to make this into a different subject but lets get back to how many fish this fella can home eh ?

truce?

p.s go deeper


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

louodge said:


> i see yo live in mitlton keynes where khv but if you check you will see that there is no khv in the north
> sorry to make this into a different subject but lets get back to how many fish this fella can home eh ?
> 
> truce?
> ...


 
there's KHV all over the world mate. It's not just a local issue here. They are trying to stop it spreading to where it hasn't been found hence the highly likely regulations


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## Muzz (Aug 3, 2007)

not going for a bottom drainer? i think you might regret it and wish you had put one in, but anyway i would go alot deeper, maybe 6 good size koi for that pond but seriously i would make it deeper, im a koi breeder myself and have been for 7 years since i was 11  learnt off the best my uncle of course lol


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## ninja_636 (Oct 19, 2008)

looking smart there you could have and bout 5 in there but only if you buy them as the tiny babys because they will out grow that but that would take an while so you have plenty of time to make an bigger pond haha : victory:


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## Lizard-man (Aug 18, 2008)

thanks for all the replies. first brick pond i have built and first time of keeping koi. I am only planning on living where i am for around 4 years. when i do come to move. i will be building a much bigger pond  and will take the fish with me  this pond is more of a test to see if i can do a good job of it, or is it a case of getting someone else to build 1 in my new home! lol. i cant go any deeper for the fact i cant dig deeper as you hit an old road which my house was built on :bash: and i do not want to raise the wall as it will not look right with everything else i am building in that particular corner of the garden. so I shall be raising some koi in this one, n then transfering them to my next 1 

is it a big problem not having a bottem drain hole?


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## Muzz (Aug 3, 2007)

Lizard-man said:


> thanks for all the replies. first brick pond i have built and first time of keeping koi. I am only planning on living where i am for around 4 years. when i do come to move. i will be building a much bigger pond  and will take the fish with me  this pond is more of a test to see if i can do a good job of it, or is it a case of getting someone else to build 1 in my new home! lol. i cant go any deeper for the fact i cant dig deeper as you hit an old road which my house was built on :bash: and i do not want to raise the wall as it will not look right with everything else i am building in that particular corner of the garden. so I shall be raising some koi in this one, n then transfering them to my next 1
> 
> is it a big problem not having a bottem drain hole?


well it gets all the koi waste and stuff that falls to the bottom and tranfers it to the filter (easy maintanence and very worth it) if you forgot to build one into it they have porftable bottom drains which are also aerated, they are a god send if you forgot to put on in ur pond and wish to have it, they make the water cyrstal clear, but to make the most of it i would have a cheap skimmer aswell to get all the grimy water off the top that the food pellets cause, if you have any more questions u can feel free to pm me or add me on msn [email protected]  have fun


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## Lamprophis (Jun 12, 2008)

hi, just a couple of questions.... how are you planning to seal the pond? are you going to use a liner or fiberglass? as the mortar from the bricks will affect water quality (PH). Secondly what filter system are you planning on? a submersible pump to a gravity fed filter or a bottom drain set up? Koi produce vast amounts of waste, therefore a decent filter set up is paramount. The pond's pretty small as far as koi ponds go, so i'd personally say 3 koi depending on the filter... it's looking good so far for a first build and looks perfect for growing on small koi. I personally would go with 3 koi for optimum growing conditions as the more you have the less they will grow and the more waste the filter will have to deal with.


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## tategoi (Oct 25, 2008)

should be good mate


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## tategoi (Oct 25, 2008)

My main pond is 12ft x 8ft x 2ft 6 inches (approx 1400 gall ) and keep 22 koi ranging from 7 " (12) , 14" (4), 20" (2), up to 26 " (4). It is in a mild area and sheltered part of the garden so doesn't get the worst weather any way. It is covered with a fine debris net for the winter so that helps keep the worst off too. Water turnover is always reduced for winter and I never feed after the first big frost of winter because I believe it is a recipe for disaster. Filtration to match the stocking, correct water turn over, loads of air and slow, slow changes is the key. Dont stock too much too soon, quarentine new intros if possible ( up to size really ), small water changes often and NEVER feed too much. I am not saying this is the ideal but it has worked for me for the last 12 years. What a journey !! Jewels in the water !!


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## mike515 (Sep 12, 2006)

Lamprophis said:


> hi, just a couple of questions.... how are you planning to seal the pond? are you going to use a liner or fiberglass? as the mortar from the bricks will affect water quality (PH). Secondly what filter system are you planning on? a submersible pump to a gravity fed filter or a bottom drain set up? Koi produce vast amounts of waste, therefore a decent filter set up is paramount. The pond's pretty small as far as koi ponds go, so i'd personally say 3 koi depending on the filter... it's looking good so far for a first build and looks perfect for growing on small koi. I personally would go with 3 koi for optimum growing conditions as the more you have the less they will grow and the more waste the filter will have to deal with.


 
you don't need a pump for a gravity fed system. You might be shocked but they are fed by gravity. Meaning the filter needs to be below the surface of that water (external of course). The pressure of the water coming in will force the water through the filter and back into the pond.

A filter with a pump is a pressurized system. Much easier to setup since the filter box can be above the level of the pond and usually turns over more water than a gravity system


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## Muzz (Aug 3, 2007)

Hows the pond going lizardman ?


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## Trillian (Jul 14, 2008)

Judging by the first photos, that's going to be a great looking pond...:2thumb:


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## Bartfarst (Oct 7, 2008)

mike515 said:


> *you don't need a pump for a gravity fed system*. You might be shocked but they are fed by gravity. Meaning the filter needs to be below the surface of that water (external of course). The *pressure of the water coming in will force the water through the filter and back into the pond.*
> 
> A filter with a pump is a pressurized system. Much easier to setup since the filter box can be above the level of the pond and usually turns over more water than a gravity system


Sorry to be a pedant but you are categorically wrong.

Unless somebody has overcome the scientific impossibility of perpetual motion without energy consumption, you most certainly DO need a pump for a gravity feed system. Without a pump, there would be no flow.

In a gravity feed system, the filter chambers are positioned at about the same height as the pond level and are filled by gravity from the pond's bottom drain. But that requires the pond water level to be slightly higher than that in the filter - gravity cannot cause water to flow uphill from the filter back into the pond!!
In a gravity system, a pump takes water from the last filter chamber into the pond - the cycle continues as this casues the pond level to rise above that of the filter chambers, so gravity feeds the filter from the pond etc.

In a non-gravity system, the pump is located in the pond and pumps water to the filter. The filter is positioned slightly higher than the pond, so that gravity takes water from the filter back into the pond.

Both systems use both gravity and pressure - it's just a matter of where the pump is positioned. One uses gravity to the filter and pump back to the pond, while the other uses pump to the filter and gravity to the pond.


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## ogawa only (Jun 4, 2008)

you do need a pump , for gravity fed filter's , ie at the end to return the water to the pond .


have you decided on what filter your going for ???? and what pump ????


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## Lamprophis (Jun 12, 2008)

Bartfarst said:


> Sorry to be a pedant but you are categorically wrong.


 amen....


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## Spence74 (Sep 28, 2008)

Dig the biggest deepest pond you can manage as it will never be big enough once you are used to it!
As for filtration dont think you can beat nexus with everything considered and sequence pumps are good.


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## Lizard-man (Aug 18, 2008)

It is complete (took longer than anticipated due the the wether over the winter months), has been running for about 6 weeks. I am impressed by it for my first build....... and i think the next one will be alot bigger. shall be looking at getting a few "smallish" koi in the summer when it has warmed up abit. i like the look of the startlets aswell. any ifo i need to know before i buy one..... i know they need alot of oxygen and can grow "Huge" but any advice into what i should look out for.....

I shall get a few photos of the pond once it has stopped raining and upload them 


Thanks Guy's....


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