# Nutrobal use?



## Serpensortia (Apr 17, 2015)

Hi, I'm new to this forum but not new to snakes. I have a Carolina corn snake and a het western hognose.

I was wondering what people's views on dusting snakes food with Nutrobal as I have asked people before and they've told me it does nothing and they don't need it. 

I have been using it for just over a month with my corn snake and it seems that his colour has been alot more vibrant but I'd love to know what other people think.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

really no need for it snakes have a very unique digestive system where they are able to remove everything they need from the food they eat. i have kept snakes for nearly ten years and i have never used anything like that for snakes. feeding rats is probably the best idea they have more protein less fat than mice and they contain other vital nutritional quantities in larger amounts than mice. im not sure if it will hurt them but i am aware that the vitamin d3 in nutrobal is toxic in large amounts and a rats is alot larger than a cricket. i dont have a good reference to say its bad but i have to advise against because of that, they don't need it and really if it is a risk i wouldn't.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

please someone correct me if im wrong but im sure its something else that affects their colour and makes it more vibrant. i think its stuff like that super pig colour booster. i thinks its replacing something that we cant give them in captivity because their prey has access to it in the wild. again though i dont think thats to do with snakes.


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## Serpensortia (Apr 17, 2015)

Right I've looked into this as it does say for snakes on the pot  . D3 can be overdosed on for reptiles that need uv lights easily, if your reptile does not use uv lights it is extremely unlikely to overdose on D3, you would have to put ALOT on there.


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

The best people to ask are the manufacturers. A quick e-mail to them should make things a little clearer for you. Supplementation is a tricky subject and until manufacturers actually tell us the appropriate amounts per animal it is basically all guess work. 

If you do e-mail them give as much detail as you can.



Gavin.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I can't see what could be missing from the wild in terms of nutrition if the food is well gutloaded, vitamins and minerals are only specific componenets that can be met either in a varied diet, or a lesser diet (such as a frozen rodent one) 

The UVB argument with snakes has been a murky one for some years, and I definitely do think that it is worth UVB investigation for snakes in the long term, but I have to admit, I have kept snakes for years, and never provided, (I do take them outside during the summer months for breif benefits, mental stimuli, enrichment exposure, not seen any proof as yet they require it though (but I am prepared to change that thinking as more evidence presents itself) 

The D3 levels they require, is supposed to come from the livers of their prey items, but there are unfortunately limitations to this, because D3 can also build up to a toxicity level, either from the diet itself, or any sysnthetic brand, so it has to be worth considering.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I can't see what could be missing from the wild in terms of nutrition if the food is well gutloaded, vitamins and minerals are only specific componenets that can be met either in a varied diet, or a lesser diet (such as a frozen rodent one)
> 
> The UVB argument with snakes has been a murky one for some years, and I definitely do think that it is worth UVB investigation for snakes in the long term, but I have to admit, I have kept snakes for years, and never provided, (I do take them outside during the summer months for breif benefits, mental stimuli, enrichment exposure, not seen any proof as yet they require it though (but I am prepared to change that thinking as more evidence presents itself)
> 
> The D3 levels they require, is supposed to come from the livers of their prey items, but there are unfortunately limitations to this, because D3 can also build up to a toxicity level, either from the diet itself, or any sysnthetic brand, so it has to be worth considering.


the colour thing is present in things like dart frogs and stuff like that, i have done work with zoos with the yellow and black ones. when they are given the super pig stuff they are actually orange and black in colour not yellow this is what im talking about. its the same with iguanas wild caught ones have a distinctive coloration that is not present in captive ones. its not a nutrional thing its something else that is present in the wild food that they eat that we cant give them in captivity. i think its called carotenoids.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

kbonnington said:


> the colour thing is present in things like dart frogs and stuff like that, i have done work with zoos with the yellow and black ones. when they are given the super pig stuff they are actually orange and black in colour not yellow this is what im talking about. its the same with iguanas wild caught ones have a distinctive coloration that is not present in captive ones. its not a nutrional thing its something else that is present in the wild food that they eat that we cant give them in captivity. i think its called carotenoids.


Carotenoids are a group of A vitamins, foods like Alfalfa, squashes, carrots, sweet potatoe, and pumpkin are swimming in abundance of carotenoids, that doesn't make sense to me? : victory:


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Carotenoids are a group of A vitamins, foods like Alfalfa, squashes, carrots, sweet potatoe, and pumpkin are swimming in abundance of carotenoids, that doesn't make sense to me? : victory:


you are right but they also give a orange pigment there are a few different ones. to give these animals the exact amounts that they require in captivity to obtain the coloration that they have in the wild is impossible without extra colour pigments like super pig. going back on what you said earlier

"I can't see what could be missing from the wild in terms of nutrition if the food is well gutloaded, vitamins and minerals are only specific componenets that can be met either in a varied diet, or a lesser diet (such as a frozen rodent one)​

heres the difference between captive and wild caught crickets: https://www.timberlinefisheries.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1936
if you have a look at both tables on this website specifically the vitamin E one you will see what is missing in captive prey items, why do you think dusting is required in the first place.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

kbonnington said:


> you are right but they also give a orange pigment there are a few different ones. to give these animals the exact amounts that they require in captivity to obtain the coloration that they have in the wild is impossible without extra colour pigments like super pig. going back on what you said earlier
> 
> "I can't see what could be missing from the wild in terms of nutrition if the food is well gutloaded, vitamins and minerals are only specific componenets that can be met either in a varied diet, or a lesser diet (such as a frozen rodent one)​
> 
> ...


I still don't understand your point, I have looked at the charts, generally speaking all foods are built up of an abundance of vitamins and minerals, (for example I will use the ones I already listed) then we look at specific dietary components, such as fiber, carbohydrates, fat, protein, you can calculate out a specific component based on the individuals needs, for example caretenoids, if we look at that group of A vitamins, lycopene, lutein, can be offerd (per specific food item your gutloading with which will take a little research) from a completely un-natural food source, like butternut squash, and then, after the gutloading cycle has been completed 24-48 hours, the trick here then becomes, how much quantity is needed, not the specific component or value of an individual food source, am I making any sense? it makes sense to me, that there are only a certain group of vitamins and minerals.  

Having said that though, I do think you are correct that some things inside natural diets are lacking in captive ones, but I don't think it is actually component values, but instead, the consumption of each component value in terms of quantity that becomes the tricky part. 

Let's face it, 90% of owners on here don't really know how to calculate out there ca ratios correctly, there is very little chance they would delve much deeper than that, if at all unfortunately, when you combine, good diet, UVB, hydration, the abilities and options to maintain those hydration levels, and are formulating a good well balanced, dietary calculated stratergy, it becomes quite mute, and arguably multi vitamin dusts, don't have a part to play in the diets I offer, at least for 6 months of the year. : victory:


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

kbonnington said:


> you are right but they also give a orange pigment there are a few different ones. to give these animals the exact amounts that they require in captivity to obtain the coloration that they have in the wild is impossible without extra colour pigments like super pig. going back on what you said earlier
> 
> "I can't see what could be missing from the wild in terms of nutrition if the food is well gutloaded, vitamins and minerals are only specific componenets that can be met either in a varied diet, or a lesser diet (such as a frozen rodent one)​
> 
> ...



I think you missed this -



Salazare Slytherin said:


> if the food is well gutloaded...


 - as if the food is well gut loaded how can it be impossible to achieve the same colouration they have in the wild? If the insects are fed a well balanced diet then they should be getting everything they get in the wild in captivity. I could probably rhyme off over one hundred food items that I have fed my live foods over the years. Including some with high Vit. E. If these guys tested my captive raised live foods they would certainly read higher than what they have down for the norm. I didn't read much and to be honest I'm not going to read any more, but I did read enough to think the whole thing was a load of crap. Also the charts weren't very good as the wild species weren't listed as captives so there was nothing to compare. 

Anyway this has very little to do with this thread as snakes don't eat insects, well corns don't. Also the dusting is mainly there to supplement the need for UV lighting.



Gavin.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

gavgav04 said:


> I think you missed this -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You for a short moment got my hopes up on a debate there Gavin  :lol2:


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> You for a short moment got my hopes up on a debate there Gavin  :lol2:


Haha, sorry I got your hopes up for a second or two. I have always fancied a rough green but never taken the plunge. I should have just left that little - "well corns don't" - part out. A little debate is always fun. Absolutely nothing wrong with a good healthy debate, especially when snake owners are involved...



Gavin.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

i get what you saying why cant gut loading give these pigments but its not that easy to give exact amounts of what they need specific to the species without feeding them exactly what prey they have in the wild and then feeding the prey what they eat in the wild. you can only give comparisons which need supplementing in some cases.and if you look at the table for example cockroaches it has wild caught roaches and captive ones. it shows a massive difference between them. im aware that snakes dont eat insects but i used that as an example, in the wild where they have evolved and adapted they would be eating prey that would be eating a vast range of different foods that we simply cannot give them in exact amounts in captivity.
my point was that its something else that is not in nutrobal in exact amounts that give you the pigments. i was commenting on the first post that sais the colour has improved from nutrobal. its more likerly that there doing well.

they sell specific pigments for certain colours to bring these colours out for reptiles, bird and frogs. superpig is one of the brand names. its used in some birds because they simply wont mate without the colours in their feathers and most birds are omnivorous why cant you just feed stuff with it in, because its not that simple.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

kbonnington said:


> i get what you saying why cant gut loading give these pigments but its not that easy to give exact amounts of what they need specific to the species without feeding them exactly what prey they have in the wild and then feeding the prey what they eat in the wild. you can only give comparisons which need supplementing in some cases.and if you look at the table for example cockroaches it has wild caught roaches and captive ones. it shows a massive difference between them. im aware that snakes dont eat insects but i used that as an example, in the wild where they have evolved and adapted they would be eating prey that would be eating a vast range of different foods that we simply cannot give them in exact amounts in captivity.
> my point was that its something else that is not in nutrobal in exact amounts that give you the pigments. i was commenting on the first post that sais the colour has improved from nutrobal. its more likerly that there doing well.
> 
> they sell specific pigments for certain colours to bring these colours out for reptiles, bird and frogs. superpig is one of the brand names. its used in some birds because they simply wont mate without the colours in their feathers and most birds are omnivorous why cant you just feed stuff with it in, because its not that simple.


I see what your saying now, that makes a little more sense to the anology your giving, one of the reasons birds would need to enhance colors for breeding is because they see there own colors as something different, (worth pointing out, this is supposed, or thought to be true of diurnal reptiles too) I am sure African Greys for example are supposed to be able to see each other in a vibrant, violet, blueish color, my mum is the one who rehabilitates the birds here so I picked up a little now and again. 
I am sure reptiles (diurnal at least) are supposed to be able to see around 99 million more colors than we can, our own visual site is a very narrow wave lenghth of light, and quite poor considering, hence we see them change colors in breeding seasons, and so on.  

There colors will naturally be influenced by many things, UV light etc for example, something we can't provide in captivity is the sun, only improvise, supplmentation d3-calcium, again has it's uses, but also carries it's risks, but the dietry requirements, can very easily be met quite well and aside from caretenoids, and UV light it does just come back to the baisic principle, everything has to come together, diet, lighting, humidity, etc. 

: victory:


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I see what your saying now, that makes a little more sense to the anology your giving, one of the reasons birds would need to enhance colors for breeding is because they see there own colors as something different, I am sure African Greys for example are supposed to be able to see each other in a vibrant, violet, blueish color, my mum is the one who rehabilitates the birds here so I picked up a little now and again.
> 
> There colors will naturally be influenced by many things, UV light etc for example, something we can't provide in captivity is the sun, only improvise, supplmentation d3-calcium, again has it's uses, but also carries it's risks, and aside from caretenoids, and UV light it does just come back to the baisic principle, everything has to come together, diet, lighting, humidity, etc.
> 
> : victory:


yes that's what im on about, to get all of that right without supplements would be a nightmare. i can only speak on experience with this because i dont full understand how the colorations come about but yellow banded dart frogs with the right pigment supplement are in fact orange and black.

i think having good vitamins in there diet that they get from nutrobal would do something to their condition which i suppose would improve their colour. 

back to question at hand ive never used it have any of you guys? i personally have never used UVB or vitamin dust. i thought that the livers provided vitamin D3 and the bones provided the phosphorous and the calcium for the metabolic rate?


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

kbonnington said:


> i get what you saying why cant gut loading give these pigments but its not that easy to give exact amounts of what they need specific to the species without feeding them exactly what prey they have in the wild and then feeding the prey what they eat in the wild. you can only give comparisons which need supplementing in some cases.and if you look at the table for example cockroaches it has wild caught roaches and captive ones. it shows a massive difference between them./QUOTE]
> 
> The major problem I still have, with the chart, is the species they have down in the light blue as captive against theirs' in red is that it probably isn't a fair representative of what most knowledgeable keepers produce. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet but I do think the live foods I offer, most of which I breed, would be much higher in nutrient contents than those they have marked as light blue.
> 
> ...


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

i totally agree with that i breed mine too but from what i hear from working at zoos and things like that from the nutritionists that they arent the best. your right the table isnt the best it doesnt explain how they went about getting the data as far as we are aware they are bigging up their product. the definative point i was trying to get at, no matter how hard we try we cannot give the correct amounts of everything, before speaking to these people i though the same about my insects. i got very defensive because the amount of effort that i put in my bugs. although still accounting for something i suppose. left side is the wild, middle apparently the normal bugs, lefts their vita bug stuff i agree to be honest like i keep banging on about you can t replicate a natural food source for the bugs and these guys suddenly have? i think thats shit too


i personally use led lighting but the reason i dont use uv, other than alot of the care stuff online, is because they just hide away from light, ive never seen my snakes out and about during the day. 

i suppose that would be for the best just in case they do need it, its certainly not going to hurt them.

still giving a thumbs down to the nutrobal though as you said "being rammed down" i dont think thats the best way to go about promoting good metabolic rate, at least not all the time.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

I have never used supplementation with my own snakes, I don't provide artificial lighting, but for the few months we do have nice warm weather, our snakes are getting regular exposure to an index of 6-7 UV light, for at least an hour and a half a day, (which given there survival strategies) I beleive they can benefit from just that, but again this is just my opinion, and speculation, I have no proof of it. 

Our diurnal lizards on a good day, might spend a full 8 hours + outdoors, with options to retreat, I do try very hard to mimic there natural dietary requirements and it is in the summer when I am aiming for 12 feeds a day + of leafy greens, and natural wild found foods, I don't supplement them, but because they are outdoors, they can self supplement themselves if they need too, (never seen them do that apart from in my female when she fell gravid though) 

I am not entirely sure where/ if? supplments will play a part in a snake diet, but I don't and can't see how the odd dust here and there will effect them, the question then has to be, is it simply beneficial to the animal what we provide, in my few conversations on this on this forum, most people don't seem to know, one dangerous perception is looking at things visually, especially nutrition, animals can look fine and fine for years, and actually be very low in something in the diet, (this again) is something that needs more thought and work into. 
: victory:


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I have never used supplementation with my own snakes, I don't provide artificial lighting, but for the few months we do have nice warm weather, our snakes are getting regular exposure to an index of 6-7 UV light, for at least an hour and a half a day, (which given there survival strategies) I beleive they can benefit from just that, but again this is just my opinion, and speculation, I have no proof of it.
> 
> Our diurnal lizards on a good day, might spend a full 8 hours + outdoors, with options to retreat, I do try very hard to mimic there natural dietary requirements and it is in the summer when I am aiming for 12 feeds a day + of leafy greens, and natural wild found foods, I don't supplement them, but because they are outdoors, they can self supplement themselves if they need too, (never seen them do that apart from in my female when she fell gravid though)
> 
> ...


totally agree more research needs to be done, no one really knows. just do what we can and thats all we can do.

what lizards do you keep outside im interested to know, best environment you can give them aint it really mother nature itself.


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## GavinMc (Jan 9, 2013)

kbonnington said:


> i totally agree with that i breed mine too but from what i hear from working at zoos and things like that from the nutritionists that they arent the best. your right the table isnt the best it doesnt explain how they went about getting the data as far as we are aware they are bigging up their product. the definative point i was trying to get at, no matter how hard we try we cannot give the correct amounts of everything, before speaking to these people i though the same about my insects. i got very defensive because the amount of effort that i put in my bugs. although still accounting for something i suppose. left side is the wild, middle apparently the normal bugs, lefts their vita bug stuff i agree to be honest like i keep banging on about you can t replicate a natural food source for the bugs and these guys suddenly have? i think thats shit too


I know I said I was done on this subject but after this slight debate I'm interested to see how they actually manage these better than the wild levels. Something is off and it stinks of artificial supplementation. I think I may check them out further. Certainly not interested in their product but interested in how they achieve it.




kbonnington said:


> i personally use led lighting but the reason i dont use uv, other than alot of the care stuff online, is because they just hide away from light, ive never seen my snakes out and about during the day.
> 
> i suppose that would be for the best just in case they do need it, its certainly not going to hurt them.
> 
> still giving a thumbs down to the nutrobal though as you said "being rammed down" i dont think thats the best way to go about promoting good metabolic rate, at least not all the time.


The major problem with Nutrobal, as with all supplementation, is that they haven't done enough research to properly recommend the correct dosage for every specific species so it is mostly guess work. It is still something that is necessary for the likes of insect eating lizards that aren't getting exposed to UV lighting and therefore need the supplementary D3. For snakes it( the use of Nutrobal ) is evident that it isn't needed but the use of UV lighting can be beneficial. 





Serpensortia said:


> I was wondering what people's views on dusting snakes food with Nutrobal as I have asked people before and they've told me it does nothing.


It certainly doesn't do nothing. An over use over Nutrobal is dangerous and certainly shouldn't just be palmed off as nothing. If you are looking for something to brighten your snakes colour I would recommend UV lighting - it has made a difference to my geckos in so many ways. If you don't want to go with UV I would advise you contact manufacturers and ask how safe their product is with your snakes. Also what their recommended dosage would be per 100g of weight. Synthetic supplements are not something to be taken lightly. 

That may sound a tad dramatic in places but these things haven't been tested enough to simply shrug off.



Gavin.


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

ive heard from a number of people that they can damage the animal if used incorrectly especially D3, your right RESEARCH PLEASE manufacturers. i have never done testing with it myself because i was always informed not to. do agree with the gecko statement it defiantly improves the colour and i have seen mine basking under heat lamps, mayby this is a sign that they bask in the dawn and dusk sun, mayby i just have a weird gecko but i do feel they have a better condition with it or at least some lighting like LED.

those vita bugs are dogy ive seen the vids on youtube and i am really sorry i did not realise who i was referencing those guys are bad news, ive seen them keeping monitors (niles!!) in tuberware!! ahhh

sorry about that i was just trying to back my statement up and i still stand on it. wasnt them who got me on the idea, but a reliable zoo.

forget that graph i understand your confusion. mayby they have found a way of making super bugs but my argument is why isnt it everywhere!! surely we would have all heard of this surely?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

kbonnington said:


> totally agree more research needs to be done, no one really knows. just do what we can and thats all we can do.
> 
> what lizards do you keep outside im interested to know, best environment you can give them aint it really mother nature itself.


Hi mate,

I keep iguanas, bearded dragons, water dragons (sometimes basilisks) and anything else in between like geckos, chuckwallas (when I have had them) chameleons, I have kept all of these outdoors for 8 hours plus on warm weather days. 

: victory:
Dixon.


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## Serpensortia (Apr 17, 2015)

Hello. I'm glad I made this post as I've heard good arguments against nutrobal and I don't think I'm going to use it anymore, I don't want to harm my snakes. I think more research was probably needed from me.
Someone else was dusting their snakes food and said they had good result in colours and I thought it was a good idea.
I don't think I'll bother with uvb he just hides from light seems a bit pointless but I do like the idea of just getting him out in warm weather to see if this enhances his colouration at all. 

Though back to food what do you all think of these sausages they're now making for snakes?










Here's the link 

http://www.reptilinks.com/#about


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## kbonnington (Mar 15, 2015)

ive heard good things about them but ive never used them myself. i would do some research and see whats in them, they sound good to me. i think a mix of them and rats your and looking at a pretty good diet for snakes. chuck the odd mouse in there, tend not to use the birds but a bit of variety is all ways good.


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