# Breeding burms, what should i know?



## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

So I plan on breeding burms in the future, maybe in 2 years. What do I need to know to safely and successfully breed, and what are things I shouldn't do and mistakes people do without realizing? Whats some tips to breed and what's the rule of age and size for males and females. I currently have a pearl het granite male and plan on breeding with a female pearl, what would be the possible outcomes from the pairing? Albino, hypo, pearl, and pink eyed Lucy's, poss 50% het granite?


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

It's difficult to give advice on breeding any species as this is a UK based forum so our markets and cultures (in terms of keeping reptiles) are different from other countries such as the US.

I guess in general, the first consideration is the market place. Do you have an outlet or means of selling the offspring. Now moving on hatchling corn snakes or royals is one thing, they are fairly easy to shift due to their size and popularity. Large boa's and pythons not so easy (again, this applies to the UK), and are more of a specialist arena, as they are typically not your ideal first snake for a new keeper. Also UK house sizes are very small compared to US, so often space for an 8' x 4' x 4' viv is restricted. The other thing to be prepared for is holdbacks. Do you have the space to keep another one, two or more snakes through to adult size? - Because there will be at least one in the clutch that you simply won't want to sell, trust me!

As to genetics, my best suggestion would be Morph Market there is a calculator which allows you to input the genes and traits and it will give you all possible outcomes and probability


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

Malc said:


> It's difficult to give advice on breeding any species as this is a UK based forum so our markets and cultures (in terms of keeping reptiles) are different from other countries such as the US.
> 
> I guess in general, the first consideration is the market place. Do you have an outlet or means of selling the offspring. Now moving on hatchling corn snakes or royals is one thing, they are fairly easy to shift due to their size and popularity. Large boa's and pythons not so easy (again, this applies to the UK), and are more of a specialist arena, as they are typically not your ideal first snake for a new keeper. Also UK house sizes are very small compared to US, so often space for an 8' x 4' x 4' viv is restricted. The other thing to be prepared for is holdbacks. Do you have the space to keep another one, two or more snakes through to adult size? - Because there will be at least one in the clutch that you simply won't want to sell, trust me!
> 
> As to genetics, my best suggestion would be Morph Market there is a calculator which allows you to input the genes and traits and it will give you all possible outcomes and probability


Thanks! From what I've seen so far burms sell pretty fast here, there's 2 morphs that I would hold back and I have 6 8x4x4 enclosures in my room alone. I'm gonna try to talk to the breeder I got my herps from for more advice or if I could come and help him out with some of the work


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## LiasisUK (Sep 30, 2019)

The trade and sale of Burms is now heavily regulated in many US states, worth checking that if you haven't already


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

LiasisUK said:


> The trade and sale of Burms is now heavily regulated in many US states, worth checking that if you haven't already


Good point. I didn't mention the regulations being different between the countries...I believe some states don't even permit transportation through them, which could mean the OP is limited to selling within his own state if permiteed.


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

Malc said:


> Good point. I didn't mention the regulations being different between the countries...I believe some states don't even permit transportation through them, which could mean the OP is limited to selling within his own state if permiteed.


Yea, I live in a state that doesn't require a permit since they're under class 3 animals still


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

LiasisUK said:


> The trade and sale of Burms is now heavily regulated in many US states, worth checking that if you haven't already


While that is true, I live in a state where there's no restrictions(other than a couple cities where you need a permit) on snake size, but from what I understand, you can not have any venomous reptiles as they're considered inherently dangerous to humans. But I'd love to look into it some more just to be sure


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Blue Cross Herps said:


> While that is true, I live in a state where there's no restrictions(other than a couple cities where you need a permit) on snake size, but from what I understand, you can not have any venomous reptiles as they're considered inherently dangerous to humans. But I'd love to look into it some more just to be sure


So basically you could be limited to certain towns and localities within your state, which granted could be a larger area than the UK, but would limit the market due to transportation costs... but then again, I think you are able to post live reptiles to people where as here in the UK that is illegal and we have to use approved reptile couriers. You see, not that I'm trying to deter you form being an RFUK member, but for us here in the UK, where this forum is targeted at, we are only able to second guess at what is possible and what is not in your state or town... You might be better off (on this occasion) seeking advice from a US based forum.


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

Ye


Malc said:


> So basically you could be limited to certain towns and localities within your state, which granted could be a larger area than the UK, but would limit the market due to transportation costs... but then again, I think you are able to post live reptiles to people where as here in the UK that is illegal and we have to use approved reptile couriers. You see, not that I'm trying to deter you form being an RFUK member, but for us here in the UK, where this forum is targeted at, we are only able to second guess at what is possible and what is not in your state or town... You might be better off (on this occasion) seeking advice from a US based forum.


Yea, but what I was mostly trying to achieve from this post is the breeding alone, im gonna talk to my trusted breeder and see if he could teach me or something


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Blue Cross Herps said:


> Yea, but what I was mostly trying to achieve from this post is the breeding alone, im gonna talk to my trusted breeder and see if he could teach me or something


There's not a lot that people can do to "teach" you... you basically put a male and female together and if they accept each other (the male may court the female in the form of caressing her and tickling her with his spurs), they lock. After they've locked remove them for a week or so, continue to offer food (chances are the male will refuse and the female will still eat). Introduces the male again later, either a week, couple or weeks or a month later. Some python breeders will stop introductions after three or four locks, others continue to introduce the male until the female goes off food and starts ovulation. 

Once you've seen the female ovulate, she will go into a pre-lay shed, and then typically a couple of weeks later will drop their eggs. By this time you should have your incubator set up (lots of you tube videos on how to build one and set it up). Place the eggs in the incubator and leave to cook for 55-60 days as an average...

Its more of a thing that you need to experience rather than be taught. Naturally if you have any questions at any stage post up the details and add pictures and we can all voice our opinions


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Blue Cross Herps said:


> While that is true, I live in a state where there's no restrictions(other than a couple cities where you need a permit) on snake size, but from what I understand, you can not have any venomous reptiles as they're considered inherently dangerous to humans. But I'd love to look into it some more just to be sure


No, not true.
In the UK, as long as you obtain the correct licence, you can keep any reptile.


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

ian14 said:


> No, not true.
> In the UK, as long as you obtain the correct licence, you can keep any reptile.


I was referring to where I live, I live in the US. I can have any reptile as long as its not venomous as they are considered class 1 animals (inherently dangerous to humans) the only way to keep venomous reptiles here is to have a zoo permit


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Blue Cross Herps said:


> I was referring to where I live, I live in the US. I can have any reptile as long as its not venomous as they are considered class 1 animals (inherently dangerous to humans) the only way to keep venomous reptiles here is to have a zoo permit


I suspect then that your post was badly worded as it read as if you believed that we cannot keep venomous reptiles, which in the UK, we can under licence.
In any case what you have said above is also incorrect. US keepers do not need a zoo licence to keep venomous reptiles. It may be a restriction in your state, but certainly not the case every where.


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

ian14 said:


> I suspect then that your post was badly worded as it read as if you believed that we cannot keep venomous reptiles, which in the UK, we can under licence.
> In any case what you have said above is also incorrect. US keepers do not need a zoo licence to keep venomous reptiles. It may be a restriction in your state, but certainly not the case every where.


Which is why I said where I live. My state restricts venomous reptiles. They are a class 1 reptile in the state I live in and requires a class 1 permit which is only available to zoos in my state. I am not speaking for all of the US and im not speaking for any other country's other than my state alone


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

ian14 said:


> I suspect then that your post was badly worded as it read as if you believed that we cannot keep venomous reptiles, which in the UK, we can under licence.
> In any case what you have said above is also incorrect. US keepers do not need a zoo licence to keep venomous reptiles. It may be a restriction in your state, but certainly not the case every where.


Also, if you read the conversation I was talking about where I live, I didn't mention the UK at all. Maybe you read it wrong? I'll word it better next time either way. Have a good day


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

Blue Cross Herps said:


> Also, if you read the conversation I was talking about where I live, I didn't mention the UK at all. Maybe you read it wrong? I'll word it better next time either way. Have a good day


I think part of the issue here is due to the fact this is a predominantly UK based forum, and as such most of us can only relate to facts in the UK. We read about laws passed in the US and maybe it could be mis-interpreted as we don't have first hand experience. Also, and again I'm surmising, that with the US been so large and individual states having their own laws where here in the UK we have national laws, that things can be unique between those states (hence why some states may permit something, others may regulate it, and others outright ban it....I'm sure you are very familiar with the rules and regulation on keeping large snakes, and venomous snakes in your particular state, or even if you have variations between counties within the states (I don't know if that is the case as I've never lived there). I can't say who is right or who's wrong, but I'm sure Ian's comments were meant in good nature, even if he has got it wrong and you know otherwise.


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

Malc said:


> I think part of the issue here is due to the fact this is a predominantly UK based forum, and as such most of us can only relate to facts in the UK. We read about laws passed in the US and maybe it could be mis-interpreted as we don't have first hand experience. Also, and again I'm surmising, that with the US been so large and individual states having their own laws where here in the UK we have national laws, that things can be unique between those states (hence why some states may permit something, others may regulate it, and others outright ban it....I'm sure you are very familiar with the rules and regulation on keeping large snakes, and venomous snakes in your particular state, or even if you have variations between counties within the states (I don't know if that is the case as I've never lived there). I can't say who is right or who's wrong, but I'm sure Ian's comments were meant in good nature, even if he has got it wrong and you know otherwise.


Yes, I know that nobody here is trying to be rude and neither am i. I sometimes can sound rude but i guess it's just the way I word things lol. I have no problem with Ian I just wanna know how to breed these beautiful creatures on RFUK seems to be the most popular to me and has the best information. So far all I know is putting a male and female together and wait for them to mate if they do. Are large constrictors legal to possess in the UK or only with a permit? I can't speak on behalf of UK laws and regulations nor can I speak on all of the US laws because like you mentioned, each state has diffrent restrictions, classifications, bans, and laws on reptiles which sucks imo, they're animals just like us so why should they be banned out of fear and ignorance yk?


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## Blue Cross Herps (Jun 15, 2021)

Malc said:


> There's not a lot that people can do to "teach" you... you basically put a male and female together and if they accept each other (the male may court the female in the form of caressing her and tickling her with his spurs), they lock. After they've locked remove them for a week or so, continue to offer food (chances are the male will refuse and the female will still eat). Introduces the male again later, either a week, couple or weeks or a month later. Some python breeders will stop introductions after three or four locks, others continue to introduce the male until the female goes off food and starts ovulation.
> 
> Once you've seen the female ovulate, she will go into a pre-lay shed, and then typically a couple of weeks later will drop their eggs. By this time you should have your incubator set up (lots of you tube videos on how to build one and set it up). Place the eggs in the incubator and leave to cook for 55-60 days as an average...
> 
> Its more of a thing that you need to experience rather than be taught. Naturally if you have any questions at any stage post up the details and add pictures and we can all voice our opinions


Thank you, by far the most helpful. I'll definitely post about it one I decide to breed! Much love from the US


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## Malc (Oct 27, 2009)

In the UK we don't need a licence to keep any of the large constrictors. There are (as far as I know) no age constraints either, so in theory an 8 year old could purchase a retic and be legal, although you would think in reality that a responsible breeder would not sell one in such cases). We do need a licence for any reptile that is covered by the UK Dangerous Wild Animal Act of 1976 & 1984. This includes venomous snakes, crocodiles, and a list of arachnids such as Scorpions. The problem with the DWA act is that the approval for a licence (permit) to keep something like half a dozen rattle snakes is done at a local council level, and some councils won't grant a licence, yet the council in the next county would...

As far as breeding Burms go's, I guess they are like any other python, and the basic mechanics have already been covered. But it's not always guaranteed it will go full term. The female may not pair readily with the male. She may re-absorb the follicles at any point and not ovulate, she may lock once and retain the sperm and go on to ovulation. The male might be infertile, so you end up with slugs. Or you get the timings right, both are fertile, and you end up with a clutch of pearly white eggs.

One thing for sure is that these days, presumably through generation of captive breeding, it's far easier to breed pythons than it was three decades ago. I remember back in 1992 one friend who had two bog standard wild Royals (Ball pythons) that were raised from hatchlings (captive farmed imports) and had been trying for several years to get eggs. He managed to get a lock, but after that nothing happened. 

I've a modest collection of snakes, most on display in the lounge in large vivariums, so most are pets rather than a "collection in draws". But two of my three female Royals have had the opportunity to breed and produce babies, the third will be mature enough for the 2022 season. I don't breed every year, and whilst this is the third season for one female, she had a year off between seasons, and this season (she is just about to have her pre-lay shed) will probably be her last. Anyway, hope this helps you should you decide to go ahead with a breeding plan.


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## Jibbajabba (Jan 31, 2011)

The one advise I always give before breeding large snakes, make sure you got the room as there is no guarantee you sell them. So make sure you got it covered if you end up having to take care of the offspring for a while.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Malc said:


> In the UK we don't need a licence to keep any of the large constrictors. There are (as far as I know) no age constraints either, so in theory an 8 year old could purchase a retic and be legal, although you would think in reality that a responsible breeder would not sell one in such cases). We do need a licence for any reptile that is covered by the UK Dangerous Wild Animal Act of 1976 & 1984. This includes venomous snakes, crocodiles, and a list of arachnids such as Scorpions. The problem with the DWA act is that the approval for a licence (permit) to keep something like half a dozen rattle snakes is done at a local council level, and some councils won't grant a licence, yet the council in the next county would...
> 
> As far as breeding Burms go's, I guess they are like any other python, and the basic mechanics have already been covered. But it's not always guaranteed it will go full term. The female may not pair readily with the male. She may re-absorb the follicles at any point and not ovulate, she may lock once and retain the sperm and go on to ovulation. The male might be infertile, so you end up with slugs. Or you get the timings right, both are fertile, and you end up with a clutch of pearly white eggs.
> 
> ...


*There are (as far as I know) no age constraints either, so in theory an 8 year old could purchase a retic and be legal*

Thankfully not true. The Animal Welfare Act makes it unlawful to sell a live animal to anyone under 16.


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