# LED lighting for plant growth



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Has anyone experimented with any of the products designed for hydroponic use?

I was just looking at these...

225 LED Light Board Red and Blue Hydroponic Grow Light | eBay


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Anthony,

LEDs for plant growth are surrounded in speculation. 

Plants need light in the red and blue spectrum so the Chinese produce tiles and spots consisting of red and blue, but they forget that red and blue alone have almost no PAR, no PAR means no growth so it's really smoke and mirrors.

Part if my job involves the hydroponics industry and I have just spent 18 months studying led and plant growth.

We really feel we have a solution now with a hydroponic version if our Eco-aqua 30w spot, it will only be available through greenhouse sensation in late September. Unlike the china and USA myths this unit is PROVEN to work and has a PAR and LUX of a 300w HPS system. to get the output that is needed we use hand made units made in the U.K

So feel free to try a red and blue tile they are very cheap but honestly, in a viv
I would stick to T5!


Happy to help further if you want

John


----------



## racingbrett (Oct 25, 2010)

not to sure on a viv point of view but i know LED lighting is taking the aquatics industry by storm (both marine and fresh water) with positive repeatable results, not to sure if theres different requirements between aquariums and vivs but might be worth a look into?


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm tempted to buy one. At that price I think it's worth a punt.


----------



## Jimmyjayz (Mar 20, 2011)

the led thing is surrounded in myth, i personally dont feel any led units are good enough for marine tanks, i have done testing and they dont give out enough par, but companies are selling out trying to produce units that sell well, 

but in hydroponics its all about the crop, and tbh weed growers are not going to use a product that wont give them a good yeild so sways my view both ways lol


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

I can appreciate they may not have the uumph to penetrate to the bottom of a marine set-up. I was thinking of them in my Royal's set up purely for plant growth. 

Are there any weed growers on here, or, of course, any folk who happened to be chatting to a weed grower in the pub one night, because as we all know, weed growing is illegal


----------



## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

I know a few chilli growers who swear by the things, but equally lots who have tried them without success, I was tempted but find my T5 daylight tubes work so well that it's not really worth changing, although the LEDs should work out cheaper in the long run with lower running costs.



> Are there any weed growers on here, or, of course, any folk who happened to be chatting to a weed grower in the pub one night


There's a hydroponics place just by Chertsey Bridge, and another over in Staines, I'm sure they'd be happy to give you some free advice.


----------



## JackR (Dec 14, 2010)

I wouldn't want to use one seeing as it says


> !WARNING - Very, very bright - do not look directly at the light when switched on!


----------



## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

But then plants usually grow in sunlight, and you wouldn't want to stare directly at that either.


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

JackR said:


> I wouldn't want to use one seeing as it says


What Graham said!


----------



## JackR (Dec 14, 2010)

Graham said:


> But then plants usually grow in sunlight, and you wouldn't want to stare directly at that either.


Guess I can't argue with that :Na_Na_Na_Na:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Graham said:


> I know a few chilli growers who swear by the things, but equally lots who have tried them without success, I was tempted but find my T5 daylight tubes work so well that it's not really worth changing, although the LEDs should work out cheaper in the long run with lower running costs.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a hydroponics place just by Chertsey Bridge, and another over in Staines, I'm sure they'd be happy to give you some free advice.


Hmmm...now you say that it does spark a vague memory... Where abouts?


----------



## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

The one near Chertsey Bridge is on the right as you approach the bridge from the Shepperton side, there are a few small industrial units along there and in one is a tyre place, I think it's in there, there's a sign on the gate.

The Staines one is along the same road where Waitrose is if you know that? On the opposite side of the river to Staines town centre, the road leads to the M25.


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Graham said:


> The one near Chertsey Bridge is on the right as you approach the bridge from the Shepperton side, there are a few small industrial units along there and in one is a tyre place, I think it's in there, there's a sign on the gate.
> 
> The Staines one is along the same road where Waitrose is if you know that? On the opposite side of the river to Staines town centre, the road leads to the M25.


Waitrose...is that on the same road as the Sainsburys?


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Ah, is it on the same road as World of Water or whatever it's called?


----------



## Graham (Jan 27, 2007)

> Waitrose...is that on the same road as the Sainsburys?


Err, maybe it's Sainsburys, I don't go that way often and remember it as a Waitrose but I could be wrong! No it's not the same road as WoW, that's just off the next junction along the M25.

If you were to drive through Staines and over the bridge, then take the third exit (the A308 to Egham), it's in a trading estate along there.


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Yeah, Sainsburys then. Must have a look out for that. I have customers along there...

Cheers Graham.


----------



## JPalmer (Jul 7, 2012)

Wolflore said:


> Has anyone experimented with any of the products designed for hydroponic use?
> 
> I was just looking at these...
> 
> 225 LED Light Board Red and Blue Hydroponic Grow Light | eBay


Yes I have and use the very lights on my seedlings they grow but slowly! So might work in a viv so the planta grow but not too fast? I had to change lighting to flower!


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

That's the thing I've read about them. But I want slow steady growth and don't want flowering! I've put on in so I'll update later on on what kills the plants first, the snake or the light


----------



## reptiles-ink (Nov 4, 2006)

I use a couple of types of led light for my dartfrogs.
A white light which is 6500k
Also an rgb light which can be switched to red of blue at night and for daytime switched to white. When set to white the red, green and blue are running to produce the white which isn't obvious but the plants seem to do ok.


----------



## OrigamiB (Feb 19, 2008)

Arcadiajohn said:


> Hi Anthony,
> 
> LEDs for plant growth are surrounded in speculation.
> 
> ...


What is PAR? Surely if a bulb still gives the right LUX and has the correct color temps it should give plant growth?


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

OrigamiB said:


> What is PAR? Surely if a bulb still gives the right LUX and has the correct color temps it should give plant growth?


*Photosynthetically active radiation*


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Photosynthetically active radiation, often abbreviated PAR, designates the spectral range (wave band) of solar radiation from 400 to 700 nanometers that photosynthetic organisms are able to use in the process of photosynthesis. This spectral region corresponds more or less with the range of light visible to the human eye. Photons at shorter wavelengths tend to be so energetic that they can be damaging to cells and tissues, but are mostly filtered out by the ozone layer in the stratosphere. Photons at longer wavelengths do not carry enough energy to allow photosynthesis to take place.


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

This is correct!

LEDs are a great light source but they consume very little energy, so in effect you have energy less light. 

Now it's not just light that plants need but in the same way as corals it's the energy from light, the volume or light or LUX and the wavelength of light measured in Nm.

So plants need to be supplied light in Blue and Red for growth, but blue and red on it's own are not energy positive colours. This needs to be boosted with white or a colour that raises the PAR.

Plants need a PAR of between 400-700 at diffeing states of growth. Our hydroponics LED system which uses a mix of full spectrum LEDS Inc red and blue has a PAR of 912 at 20cms from the top of a plant or 770 at 30cms.

So a unit made up of just red and blue can never have the PAR required to cause longterm and full photosynthesis. They may week be great for producing strong seedlings but as the plant matures it requires energy from light.

Hope this makes sense,

John


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

So, if they need between 400 & 700 PAR, why produce a unit that puts out 900 PAR at a usable distance? My light unit is between 10 & 15cm from the plants. Is 900 a longer or shorter wavelength of light?


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

Hmmmmm depends what ur plannin on doing :whistling2:

Ive tried every system/method going for all diff kinds of plants so i could poss help! If going for LEDS tho dont be expectin big Tomatos unless u buy the real gear(i can direct u in right place) but its expensive expensive!

We originally heard bout this out 5-6 year ago durin the testin phases

Better with a 600w dual and if heats an issue they suction tubes are the bomb :no1:


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

But the knew multi LEDS do work on everything but id stay clear of the shoddy ones on ebay if ur wanting to do it proper n get the full results for your tank/Garden :lol2:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

StaneyWid said:


> Hmmmmm depends what ur plannin on doing :whistling2:
> 
> Ive tried every system/method going for all diff kinds of plants so i could poss help! If going for LEDS tho dont be expectin big Tomatos unless u buy the real gear(i can direct u in right place) but its expensive expensive!
> 
> ...


Nothing with a sick raptor 

Thanks for that. All I needed was a bit o'light for some grass I'm growing :whistling2:


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

In a fish tank tho ?

Cos i am slightly lost! Altho if is it for they Tomatos stick to the 600w with cool tubes! And if u want to go all out flourescent tubes on the ground (Or they envirolites to bush upthe bottoms)
Altho peggin them/Nettin them is the way forward :whistling2:

Seriously confused tho :lol2::lol2:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

StaneyWid said:


> In a fish tank tho ?
> 
> Cos i am slightly lost! Altho if is it for they Tomatos stick to the 600w with cool tubes! And if u want to go all out flourescent tubes on the ground (Or they envirolites to bush upthe bottoms)
> Altho peggin them/Nettin them is the way forward :whistling2:
> ...


Who mentioned fish tank!? 

Here you go, here's my build...

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...n-savannah-viv-project-my-2.html#post10331402


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

Still lost

but i think thats 4 the best :lol2:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Basically, I need light to grow grass. I don't need fruits, flowers, etc. I'm hoping what I've got will be enough


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

Ah right a see

A 125W enviro should be fine and emits basically no heat so wont fluctuate ur temps by much! Wont need a dual spectrum either one with the green ring round it would be more than enuff :2thumb:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

What's a 125w enviro?


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

ENVIROLITE 200 WATT GROW LAMP 6400 VEG | eBay

Along those lines
But with a green ring
And 125w would do if ur no flowerin anything :2thumb:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Cheers fella, always an education this side of the snake forum.


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

A just seen it on first page bud!

Thought id help a used to be a keen gardner n love my greens nuttin but the best :2thumb:


----------



## OrigamiB (Feb 19, 2008)

I dont think I like the idea of using a plant growth bulb in an animal tank, it's just way too bright. The lumen output from a 200watt CFL is huge, roughly around 10'000 lumens is what most claim. Where as the lumen output from a 23watt UVB CFL bulb is more around 1'500...

This might not mean much to some people, so i'll put it in perspective a bit.... on a very bright sunny day you can expect around 10'000 lumens, but this is subject to coverage, weather etc... so on an overcast day you can expect more around 1000 lumens. A rainforest species can be expected to receive even less due to high amounts of foliage and coverage, unless directly basking. I don't think any reptile will want that amount of brightness on them every single day, it will most defiantely effect their behaviour directly and they'l be constantly hiding or seeking shade. (as a note, shaded cover can give anything from 100 to 400 lumens)

I've never seen anyone do any research on the effects of high lumens on reptiles, but i'm imagining the effects are negative! If any of my numbers are off, please feel free to correct me


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

Starters i said something like...............Was an example first one i found on ebay

And again lumens ????? How many lumens does the sun produce from such a distance ? I understand what ur saying! But considerin this would only need 8 hour of light and they go down to lot lower wattage!

Why a saiD LEDS but......How bout affects on LEDS?

And again how bout the effects of keeping reptiles in captivity ? Have we seriously got enough info that were not changing there DNA or genetics etc ? Whats go happen next 100-200 year ? Dunno ? If you do tho feel free to PM me and fill me in (Also i like a flutter any tips would be handy)

Cheers :2thumb:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Lighting threads always make me chuckle :2thumbs:

I think, due to the nature of most folk's setups for most snakes these days (RUB, hide, waterbowl) people believe that this is how all snakes are kept. Have a look at my build thread to see her hiding spots. She also has a lot of cover with the plants and leaf layer and so can actually get from hide to hide without seeing light if she wanted to. It's all about the cover with any form of lighting.


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

Wolflore said:


> Lighting threads always make me chuckle :2thumbs:
> 
> I think, due to the nature of most folk's setups for most snakes these days (RUB, hide, waterbowl) people believe that this is how all snakes are kept. Have a look at my build thread to see her hiding spots. She also has a lot of cover with the plants and leaf layer and so can actually get from hide to hide without seeing light if she wanted to. It's all about the cover with any form of lighting.


 
Exactly!!!!! B good to see how u get on tho!

Or if captain skippy gets us some tips for the horses etc or wotever else he can visualise from the future would be sweet :2thumb:


----------



## OrigamiB (Feb 19, 2008)

StaneyWid said:


> Starters i said something like...............Was an example first one i found on ebay
> 
> And again lumens ????? How many lumens does the sun produce from such a distance ? I understand what ur saying! But considerin this would only need 8 hour of light and they go down to lot lower wattage!
> 
> ...


This reply confused me... as for the sun, it produces about 10'000'000'000'000 lumens(give or take a few 00's!!). but the amount of lumens deteriorates over distance and other factors aswell, so when it hits the surface of the earth your looking at anything from 500 to 10'000 lumens...
And no, keeping reptiles in captivity is not changing their DNA! Selective breeding is, but that really has nothing to do with this thread....



Wolflore said:


> Lighting threads always make me chuckle :2thumbs:
> 
> I think, due to the nature of most folk's setups for most snakes these days (RUB, hide, waterbowl) people believe that this is how all snakes are kept. Have a look at my build thread to see her hiding spots. She also has a lot of cover with the plants and leaf layer and so can actually get from hide to hide without seeing light if she wanted to. It's all about the cover with any form of lighting.


I totally agree, but at the same time if the lighting is too bright then your animal may become overly stressed, stop eating or never come out of hiding. It's all about balance, So I really don't believe that more hides means you can start putting 200 watt bulbs in your tank!


----------



## StaneyWid (Jun 2, 2012)

Oooooooooo Betty! :lol2:


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

As it happens I've got one that's about 40 watt. That's why I'm looking at LED. I want to drop down the leccy bill, not increase it 

One of John's (Arcadia) tricks is to put the lighting on a timer with a few breaks during the day to replicate cloud, etc. Seems like a good idea to me.


----------



## my_shed (Jan 5, 2011)

Umm, taken from wikipedia. 

"Bright sunlight provides illuminance of approximately 100,000 lux or lumens per square meter at the Earth's surface."

taken from Exo terra lighting guide

"The illuminance of direct sunlight is approximately 100,000 lux, but normal daylight, which is filtered through a cloudy sky, is between 5,000 and 10,000 lux, while moonlight can be as little as 0.25 lux."


I would still be wary of putting a lamp with a *confirmed* output of 10,000 lumens in a viv, however with plenty of cover it should be fine, and most lamps fail to reach anything like their claimed outputs.


----------



## Arcadiajohn (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi,

Simple we have designed this unit for the biggest hydroponic manufacturer in the world, I'm not suggesting it's use in vivs.

Some....plants require a PAR well over 900.

I'm just using it as an example of how some firms use some proven science to sell people duff product without explaining the full story.

Its a real technical subject and one I don't fully understand...yet, but I will given time

John 




Wolflore said:


> So, if they need between 400 & 700 PAR, why produce a unit that puts out 900 PAR at a usable distance? My light unit is between 10 & 15cm from the plants. Is 900 a longer or shorter wavelength of light?


----------



## Wolflore (Mar 3, 2010)

Cheers John!


----------

