# Tree frog humidity, heat & spraying - please advise



## sarah&andyb (Sep 8, 2008)

OK, I am concerned for the little guy now and want to improve on things for them so I am looking for your advice on a few things. This is our frog setup (not the best photo but the battery went flat on the camera, and I should be going to work about now).










We have three tree frogs (of mixed type, and unsure origins), and they are kept in a Exo Terra 60 x 45 x 45cm with about 2 inches of Jungle Floor substrate. I use a half litre plant sprayer which I spray them with once a day (using most of the water each time). There is a 150w red exo terra bulb, and we position the thermometer under that to read the hottest temperature which has reached 32.7 maximum, but is normally around the 30 - 31 degree area and the bulb is on a timer on at 8.00am and off at 9.00pm.

What I would like to know is this:
* Is our heat right (and the time we have it on for)?
* Am I spraying enough water (in volume for the tank vs. frogs vs. heat), and if not how much should I spray?
* Should I buy a hygrometer to measure the humidity, and if so what should the humidity be at in our set up? I work in hydroponics so I can get this and possibly a better sprayer today at work.
* Am I doing the best for the frogs in relation to humidity? Is spraying the best thing to do or is there a better option?

I'm sorry this seems like a lot of questions, but I thought we were doing the best for them and now I'm not so sure, so your advise and opinions would be very much appreciated.


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## Axel01 (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm not too happy with the temperature. Seems very warm to me, most tropical frogs seem to prefer low to mid 20s. 
You can change this once the frogs have been IDed

Frogs and heat lamps tend not to mix. Might recommend using a heat mat on the side of the viv with a thermostat.

Some more plants. to provide more cover and they also help to keep the humidity up. There's been plenty of threads recently on suitable plants you could try ficus benjamina, philodendron (these come from similar environment to the frogs). Spathiphyllum, Anthurium

Substrate looks OK.
What I do is put a 2.5 cm layer of leca beads for drainage then a thick layer of the same stuff your using on top. It just stops the plant roots getting waterlogged.

Yup a hygrometer would be useful.
Keep up with the spraying. The combination of spraying plants and the substrate will work wonders with the humidity.

Please post some more pics of the frogs. So that we can try to ID them for you.

This is a general caresheet. that will give you the idea until the frogs are identified. and you can refine the conditions better.

http://www.pollywog.co.uk/cubancaresheet.html

Pollywog is very well worth contacting for advice.


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## chondro13 (Aug 18, 2008)

as said above that seems very hot to me - if your spraying once a day you may want to up this to morning and evening and lower the temperature slightly. It may also be due to stress as there's not much in the way of plants and hides in their viv so maybe get some more plants in there? plus heat bulbs are not the best way to heat amphibian vivs as these dry out the viv and can caused localised burning of your froggies - swap to a heat mat on the side of the viv if you need any extra heat at all. thats all i can think of! good luck : victory:


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## Axel01 (Jun 14, 2008)

Boing. This one need to be kept in view for a bit.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/amphibians/202505-one-our-tree-frogs-does.html


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## sarah&andyb (Sep 8, 2008)

Thank you so much for all of your advice and help so far. I thought I should give you an update of what we have done so far today (and what we will be doing in the next day or two).

Today I bought a new 2 litre pump up sprayer and a hygrometer from work, the new sprayer really does the trick and the substrate already looks so much more moist and even has a little haze formed on the glass just above it. The hygrometer reads 95% humidity after the spray earlier this evening and having been in place for over four hours (don't know if this is right or wrong so please advise).

We removed the 150w bulb and replaced it with the 50w red bulb and the temperature went down to 20.5. The reason we were striving to achieve temperatures of 28-30 was because that was what we were told was the optimum temperature from our local reptile shop, I have to say I am more than a little bit miffed that they misinformed us so badly and with information that could mean that we inadvertantly hurt our little frog. 

This weekend (or sooner) we are going to buy a heat mat with a thermometer and some more plants and hidey holes for them. On Saturday we are going to remove and replace the substrate (in case of lurking fungus) and lift out the frogs and have a closer look at each of them (that should be interesting as they are all practically wild and have only been handled minimally, and no more than three times).

We use only silk plants (x 3) and have three pieces of bogwood in there at the moment (also the waterfall and the twisty vine) and we don't want to get the real plants (but we will buy some of the springtails) so what else do you think we are missing? Suggestions for good hidey holes would be much appreciated.
They are shy little devils (but so gorgeous :flrt and we love to observe them, but as they are nocturnal this is difficult. We were told that they do not see the red light (by the same shop) but I know that this is not true so is there a light that is safe that we can use to observe them without them knowing?

We live in South Warwickshire and if anyone knows of a decent reptile shop in our area that they would heartily recommend we would really appreciate it. Our little band of rescue frogs mean to much to us to allow bad advice to hurt them in any way, but we only really know the one shop. I will have a look at Pollywog, I heard they were going to be opening a shop but have not seen anymore about it. 

We can't wait for the show in November when we get the chance to talk to more people who really know what they are talking about. You guys really are invaluable to us :notworthy:.

Thank you so much ... we will keep you updated. 
(I will post this on my other thread as well)


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## Axel01 (Jun 14, 2008)

Good stuff

Advice from petshop might work for some lizards.

Frog should see a vet

You can get red LED that don't get hot. Check out other threads here.


You don't want to blast them with the spray.  Gentle mist is fine. need to be a bit careful or you'll end up flooding the base. I think some Dart frog keepers get the viv set up so that the water can be re-circulated by creating a sump to contain a pump. 

The base will need a drainage layer.

I think once you get a bit more cover in there they will get more confident.

Generally it's not a good idea to handle frogs they have very delicate skin. But occasionally you have to, just make sure your hands are clean, soap free and damp.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

EEK 

I wrote a HUGE reply to this last night and as I posted it the forums were down so it was lost. I'll write a more in depth reply later if needed...

It went along the lines of;
I think your frog in the pic is probably an _Osteopilus sp_. and looks to be a good match with _Osteopilus dominicensis_ (Dominican tree frog) I would be inclined as others have said to treat it as _Osteopilus septentrionalis_ (Cuban tree frog which is commonly kept so lots of info available).

Frogs within this genus DO have areas of skin covered in tubercles and rougher patches, notably on the front forearms. I personally am not convinced that there is anything wrong with this frog and would like to see more pics and pics of the other two so we can make a better informed decision with you 

Also, I have no idea where the sweeping statement that "tropical frogs do best at low 20's" came from. The Cuban tree frogs I work with thrive at 28-30C and need little humidity...

I'll be back at lunch! 
Lotte***


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

sarah&andyb said:


> OK, I am concerned for the little guy now and want to improve on things for them so I am looking for your advice on a few things. This is our frog setup (not the best photo but the battery went flat on the camera, and I should be going to work about now).
> 
> 
> 
> ...





sarah&andyb said:


> Thank you so much for all of your advice and help so far. I thought I should give you an update of what we have done so far today (and what we will be doing in the next day or two).
> 
> Today I bought a new 2 litre pump up sprayer and a hygrometer from work, the new sprayer really does the trick and the substrate already looks so much more moist and even has a little haze formed on the glass just above it. The hygrometer reads 95% humidity after the spray earlier this evening and having been in place for over four hours (don't know if this is right or wrong so please advise).
> 
> ...


 

I thought I had best bring this topic back up and correct the issues directly. 

-The picture of the viv, looks beautiful but I would add about 4/5 more branches/poles. 
The substrate may be better as a compacted compost type substrate which can actually dry out over the day, most coco fibre/neopeat/coir substrates are going to be waterlogged quite quickly at the previously recommended levels of spraying and these frogs just arent suited to that and are at risk of skin problems. 

-The original bulb and temperatures you had were *perfect*. Bulbs are not unsuitable at all and the way you had it suspended (with a lamp clamp I suspect?!) was ideal, well away from the mesh itself and out of the viv. Allowing a lovely hot basking area with no burning risk at all. The length of time the lamp was on was also fine.

-You were originally spraying a little more than I personally think is necessary, especially with substrate in there which will hold humidity for longer. Ideally you want to do a morning spray that briefly raises the humidity to 80-90% and lowers to 60-70% by midday. I think you can achieve that with a very quick once over spray with your pump sprayer or a plant hand sprayer would use perhaps 30 good full mists. 

-20.5C should be your *minimum* temperatures, below this and these two species will not feed properly and will not digest efficiently. 


What actually bothers me the most is this;


> I have to say I am more than a little bit miffed that they misinformed us so badly and with information that could mean that we inadvertantly hurt our little frog.


That is EXACTLY what just happened here. 
I would urge those who keep temperate or forest floor species not to make an assumptions about the care of animals they know nothing about and to exercise restraint when tempted to leap to the rescue with false information. 
Better to give someone no advice at all (and if they've gotten this far they'll continue to research elsewhere) than to put them at ease with poor advice.

Sorry for the rant!
Lotte***


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## ilovetoads2 (Oct 31, 2008)

LOTTIE....Funny when you say about the wrong advice being given...I was told of by Jesuslovestheladies (or something like that in another forum) for ranting when someone asked what viv they should keep their tree frogs in..I told him that there are too many people that are looking to be told what to do and not doing enough research...like weeks and weeks before owning a new species...

I hope you do sort out this terrarium. I dont like being the bad one but it definatly does not have enough plants. I recommend Pothos. Just go to dartfrog and order one. They have broad leaves and the leaves and stems are strong it will also help difuse some of the light from the lamp with shade. I will not comment on heat and humidity as I know more about red eyes. I also know that this has been the popular recommended size for some time but exo terra now do a 60cm high tank that might be more suitable. It will give them even more height that tree frogs should have.


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## sarah&andyb (Sep 8, 2008)

Thanks for the extra advice. I have already changed the set up after advice from people on the forum, especially Lotte and there are now more silk plants, more driftwood and a lower wattage bulb.

As you will see from my previous posts, we rescue(d) these frogs so the option of researching them months before we actually get them was never available to us.


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## toxic (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi ya I would swap the lamp for a mat when you much better for the frogs I think.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Hands up how many people offering advice have actually kept these species?

Just a question and a valid one.


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## toxic (Jul 1, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> Hands up how many people offering advice have actually kept these species?
> 
> Just a question and a valid one.


I keep whites tree frogs:2thumb:


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

So how do you know if a heatlamp is definitely not as good for _Osteopilus _species as a heatmat?

What do people base their information on here, before they deliver it to newbies unfiltered?


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## toxic (Jul 1, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> So how do you know if a heatlamp is definitely not as good for _Osteopilus _species as a heatmat?
> 
> What do people base their information on here, before they deliver it to newbies unfiltered?


I got all my info on setups from forums and website all so one or two books.


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

So you specifically researched _Osteopilus_ sps. and their captive husbandry then?

My beef isnt personal with anyone here, certainly not you Toxic so no worries.

It's just that this topic is a PERFECT example of crazy amounts of false or unfounded information being delivered as hard evidence. 

I can't spell it out clearly enough, people on this forum who have NEVER had ANY experience whatsoever with the species being discussed managed to persuade the topic poster to reduce the temps in her viv to 20.5C, based on NOTHING. 

20.5C is absolute deepest winter temps where these animals come from. 

It is not just this one topic that has frustrated me in this way, but many and they keep coming up. 

Do you just not see the harm you are doing or have the potential to do?


More often than not beginners with experience of one or two species are offering assertive advice to other beginners on all manner of species and risking the welfare of other peoples animals. 
The questioners ask in good faith and just want help and genuine experience.
Those answering I'm sure are full of good intention, that falls flat when it's got nothing to back it up.

Sorry!!!
Lotte***


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## Tehanu (Nov 12, 2006)

Furthermore! (alright alright, I'll get me coat soon...)

The people who initially misguided this woman, never came back to say "oh gosh, sorry about that" or justify why they offered the advice they did.

It's so easy to throw random information out there and never be responsible for the trouble you might cause, think on.


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## tinks30 (Nov 2, 2008)

Ok i know i get easily confused, but what is the ideal set up here then? I am mainly asking lottie for my own info, but everyone is welcome to reply. :lol2:


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## toxic (Jul 1, 2008)

Saedcantas said:


> I can't spell it out clearly enough, people on this forum who have NEVER had ANY experience whatsoever with the species being discussed managed to persuade the topic poster to reduce the temps in her viv to 20.5C, based on NOTHING.
> 
> 20.5C is absolute deepest winter temps where these animals come from.


Oh no I think 20.5c is to low mine are around 25.5 to 28. tops I would not got below 25c.All so my frogs stick to the tank with the heat mat on it and when i put the senser on the glass it hits around 29.8c or somthing like that. Ill have to check


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## toxic (Jul 1, 2008)

tinks30 said:


> Ok i know i get easily confused, but what is the ideal set up here then? I am mainly asking lottie for my own info, but everyone is welcome to reply. :lol2:


Hay tink check this link out its to one of your posts I replied to the othere day :2thumb:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/amphibians/210622-help-set-up.html


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## tinks30 (Nov 2, 2008)

Yep thanks toxic. Just added to that post my set up how it is now. Will be picking up my first froggies at rodbaston and have plans for two more wites and a mossy frog set up too. :flrt:
Also i pm`d you.


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