# Hmmmm Whats The Point???



## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Just seen this thread in classifieds...

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...25-wanted-hybrid-chile-roses.html#post7022052

Why do people want to hybridise spiders and pollute the hobby???


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## Spawn (Oct 19, 2009)

i also seen this and wondered the same thing... next he will be wanting north with rcf, pointless imo


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Spawn said:


> i also seen this and wondered the same thing... next he will be wanting north with rcf, pointless imo


What is he going to do with them though. Breed them???


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## Spawn (Oct 19, 2009)

i dont know ? he may be hoping for a red body and browny legs or other way round ?


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## Cockys Royals (Jun 28, 2008)

Its the same with people who have snakes, lizards, dogs & cats etc. All these morphs coming out. I must admit I do prefer the original, but must own up I do have a spider royal python.


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## ipreferaflan (Oct 8, 2009)

Aesthetics I guess.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Thing is if its for prettiness etc then surely there are more interesting hybrids to go for lmao.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. We're hobbyists here, not a captive breeding program for arachnids. Why not produce some new combinations or different colours? It might even shed some light on the actual genetic relationships between the different species. And if you're selling some hybrid offspring, then just let people know what they're getting.

I wouldn't mind owning a hybrid of the different Pterinochilus murinus colour forms. It would be quite interesting to see what the pattern of inheritance of colours is, would you get a mix of NCF and RCF in the brood or an intermediate, pale, RCF for example.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Chaika said:


> I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. We're hobbyists here, not a captive breeding program for arachnids. Why not produce some new combinations or different colours? It might even shed some light on the actual genetic relationships between the different species. And if you're selling some hybrid offspring, then just let people know what they're getting.
> 
> I wouldn't mind owning a hybrid of the different Pterinochilus murinus colour forms. It would be quite interesting to see what the pattern of inheritance of colours is in arachnids.


I have owned hybrids in the past i had a hybrid avic that was very pretty. However its not that side that worries me its when people then try and breed the hybrids (should they be fertile) then start selling them as the true species to make a quick quid.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

selina20 said:


> I have owned hybrids in the past i had a hybrid avic that was very pretty. However its not that side that worries me its when people then try and breed the hybrids (should they be fertile) then start selling them as the true species to make a quick quid.


I know what you mean there, but I suppose every hobby has that problem. For example, how many times I have seen people selling '100% het' normal animals in the reptile business. I'm sure that there are some unscrupulous people willing to sell just plain normals as heterozygous to make a few more quid. 

Not sure how you would control that though, we always have to rely on the good faith of the seller when buying anything.


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## Willenium (Apr 17, 2008)

Spawn said:


> i dont know ? he may be hoping for a red body and browny legs or other way round ?


Poverty spec M. robustum anyone?



Chaika said:


> I wouldn't mind owning a hybrid of the different Pterinochilus murinus colour forms. It would be quite interesting to see what the pattern of inheritance of colours is, would you get a mix of NCF and RCF in the brood or an intermediate, pale, RCF for example.


Would be interesting to see. Technically it could be possible if they are purely just colour variants of the same species. Find me a MM NCF and I'd be tempted..


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## toro9186 (Aug 18, 2009)

Willenium said:


> Poverty spec M. robustum anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> Would be interesting to see. Technically it could be possible if they are purely just colour variants of the same species. Find me a MM NCF and I'd be tempted..


There was one not that long ago on the classifieds...:whistling2:


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## Willenium (Apr 17, 2008)

toro9186 said:


> There was one not that long ago on the classifieds...:whistling2:


This is true. My female may still double clutch though :whistling2:


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Chaika said:


> I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. We're hobbyists here, not a captive breeding program for arachnids. Why not produce some new combinations or different colours? It might even shed some light on the actual genetic relationships between the different species. And if you're selling some hybrid offspring, then just let people know what they're getting.
> 
> I wouldn't mind owning a hybrid of the different Pterinochilus murinus colour forms. It would be quite interesting to see what the pattern of inheritance of colours is, would you get a mix of NCF and RCF in the brood or an intermediate, pale, RCF for example.


If the hybridising was done under laboratory conditions then we might learn something, but what's probably going to happen is someone with little knowledge of the species, other than basic husbandry, is going to produce something for their own curiosity. More alarming is what then happens to the slings, they are sold on (perhaps multiple times) without the true history revealed and entered into the market as assigned species. Considering Chile has stopped illegal exports this threatens our captive bred specimens.
As for Pterinochilus murinus that has already been done and produced 50/50 on the colour forms.
If we were at the full extent of the tarantulas available, and if we'd discovered how to breed each species successfully, and additionally we kept accurate studies of our hybridising with a responsible attitude to the offspring then perhaps I could understand it better, but intentionally producing a hybrid that 7 years later might be considered for breeding is irresponsible IMO. And, as yet Ive not heard a valid argument for doing so other than curiosity.


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Poxicator said:


> If the hybridising was done under laboratory conditions then we might learn something, but what's probably going to happen is someone with little knowledge of the species, other than basic husbandry, is going to produce something for their own curiosity. More alarming is what then happens to the slings, they are sold on (perhaps multiple times) without the true history revealed and entered into the market as assigned species. Considering Chile has stopped illegal exports this threatens our captive bred specimens.
> As for Pterinochilus murinus that has already been done and produced 50/50 on the colour forms.
> If we were at the full extent of the tarantulas available, and if we'd discovered how to breed each species successfully, and additionally we kept accurate studies of our hybridising with a responsible attitude to the offspring then perhaps I could understand it better, but intentionally producing a hybrid that 7 years later might be considered for breeding is irresponsible IMO. And, as yet Ive not heard a valid argument for doing so other than curiosity.


+1

I think that one of these days I'll save a set response to why I think we shouldn't hybridize T's in the hobby and every time the topic comes up just copy and past it with number next to it to count on how many times this topic has come up without a good reason to do it .


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

A bit worrying in my opinion.. For the sake of idle curiosity, I think it is a bit reckless. My concern, like others, is when this hybrid G. Rosea is bought by someone, not knowing the history of its making, and is used in a project to bolster a specific G. Rosea kind. The whole line is polluted, and that is that, no amount of back breeding will get rid of that, and your line is gone.
I think the next big step for us, as hobbyists and those of a more professional interest, is the specific DNA sequencing of the various species. That should shed light on a hell of a lot, and not lastly, the differences in different forms.

That said, I am a bit of a genetic puritan, and so would be far more extreme than most.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> A bit worrying in my opinion.. For the sake of idle curiosity, I think it is a bit reckless. My concern, like others, is when this hybrid G. Rosea is bought by someone, not knowing the history of its making, and is used in a project to bolster a specific G. Rosea kind. The whole line is polluted, and that is that, no amount of back breeding will get rid of that, and your line is gone.
> I think the next big step for us, as hobbyists and those of a more professional interest, is the specific DNA sequencing of the various species. That should shed light on a hell of a lot, and not lastly, the differences in different forms.
> 
> That said, I am a bit of a genetic puritan, and so would be far more extreme than most.


You are assuming, of course, that this would be a hybrid but by actually calling it a kind of Grammastola rosea you imply that it would not be, so I'm a bit confused. Are the RCF NCF, and whatever other colour forms there are, different species or not? Because if they aren't then I really don't see why breeding a slightly redder G. rosea with a slightly paler G. rosea would be 'polluting the line' as you call it? Is there no space for individual colour variation in this or are we only supposed to breed spiders that look like clones of each other?

After all I don't see many people in the herp hobby balking at crossing different colour varieties...


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> Ive not heard a valid argument for doing so other than curiosity.


Well, curiosity it is then . Not a bad reason for doing something as long as, as you've pointed out, everyone has the information about where the animal's come from.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Chaika said:


> You are assuming, of course, that this would be a hybrid but by actually calling it a kind of Grammastola rosea you imply that it would not be, so I'm a bit confused. Are the RCF NCF, and whatever other colour forms there are, different species or not? Because if they aren't then I really don't see why breeding a slightly redder G. rosea with a slightly paler G. rosea would be 'polluting the line' as you call it? Is there no space for individual colour variation in this or are we only supposed to breed spiders that look like clones of each other?
> 
> After all I don't see many people in the herp hobby balking at crossing different colour varieties...


I would prefer to err on the side of caution.TBH I haven't read anything that suggests that they are anything but different coloured varieties.. however, should this prove not to be the case, well what I said stands. If you have read or seen anything that pushes the argument one way or another, I would love a copy of it?

As for the herp community, just have a look at the BC threads to see where the morph madness usually ends up. And it should be pointed out that the herp community has at hand a far more detailed portfolio of scientifically peer reviewed information. When we have such a portfolio, my opinion will be more balanced and informed.


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Chaika said:


> You are assuming, of course, that this would be a hybrid but by actually calling it a kind of Grammastola rosea you imply that it would not be, so I'm a bit confused. Are the RCF NCF, and whatever other colour forms there are, different species or not? Because if they aren't then I really don't see why breeding a slightly redder G. rosea with a slightly paler G. rosea would be 'polluting the line' as you call it? Is there no space for individual colour variation in this or are we only supposed to breed spiders that look like clones of each other?
> 
> After all I don't see many people in the herp hobby balking at crossing different colour varieties...


The NCF is conjectured to be G.porteri while the RCF is supposed to be G.rosea .


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I digress here, but who amongst us is happy to look into the hybridisation question more scientifically? I'm thinking a group of us who would set up a controlled experiment and compare notes etc, with the view of putting out report?
It would be interesting, and no one else (that I am aware of) is doing it.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Mutley.100 said:


> The NCF is conjectured to be G.porteri while the RCF is supposed to be G.rosea .


Well, I remember a post by Ph0bia that essentially said that all of the colour forms are now known as G. rosea and that G. porteri is just an old name that was superceded. I can find no convincing proof that he is wrong (although I did find out that you can anesthetise tarantulas using inhalant anesthetics like isoflurane!).

So if they are just colour forms of the same species, in much the same way that other animals incuding humans have different colour forms, then why not breed away? Surely if they do breed together easily then they are in fact the same species?



LeviathanNI said:


> I digress here, but who amongst us is happy to look into the hybridisation question more scientifically? I'm thinking a group of us who would set up a controlled experiment and compare notes etc, with the view of putting out report?
> It would be interesting, and no one else (that I am aware of) is doing it.


I'm up for it. I'll be submitting my PhD at the end of the month and should have some time to do a bit more experimenting after that. What did you have in mind?


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Chaika said:


> Well, I remember a post by Ph0bia that essentially said that all of the colour forms are now known as G. rosea and that G. porteri is just an old name that was superceded. I can find no convincing proof that he is wrong. So if they are just colour forms of the same species, in much the same way that other animals incuding humans have different colour forms, then why not breed away? *Surely if they do breed together easily then they are in fact the same species?*


Lions and tigers breed together readily in captivity , you may of heard of them , ligers and tigons . and I'm pretty sure no one's saying they're the same species .

Just did a quick google search on the taxonomy of the 2 species . Came up with these two pages which say they were both scrutinised on the same day by Platnick N.I., 15-Jul-2004 . If the site is correct , it looks like he didn't see them as the same species . 

Grammostola porteri
Grammostola rosea (Chilean Rose Tarantula)


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Chaika said:


> I'm up for it. I'll be submitting my PhD at the end of the month and should have some time to do a bit more experimenting after that. What did you have in mind?


I'm thinking that we set up a complete set of parameters, source and split some slings, and actually grow them on and do the breeding ourselves. Obviously there will be environmental factors that will differ, given that we are spread all over GB and Ireland, but, I think it would be interesting to follow the whole thing through a few generations, and see what we come up with.
Now, I only have a BSc, but I don't think anyone should feel barred from taking part. Experience and the will to follow through, and the ability to write accurate reports should be enough.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Mutley.100 said:


> Lions and tigers breed together readily in captivity , you may of heard of them , ligers and tigons . and I'm pretty sure no one's saying they're the same species .


No, but are ligers and tigons fertile and can they produce their own offspring? I believe that used to be the full definition of a species (where individuals breed together and produce fertile offspring). Because if they can't then there is no question of 'polluting the line' since they cannot be crossed back, but if they can then surely there is little to separate them as different species, and likewise with any tarantula 'hybrids'.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> I'm thinking that we set up a complete set of parameters, source and split some slings, and actually grow them on and do the breeding ourselves. Obviously there will be environmental factors that will differ, given that we are spread all over GB and Ireland, but, I think it would be interesting to follow the whole thing through a few generations, and see what we come up with.
> Now, I only have a BSc, but I don't think anyone should feel barred from taking part. Experience and the will to follow through, and the ability to write accurate reports should be enough.


Intersting, I'd go with something that grows fast so that you can have some second generations in a few of years rather than 20 . Maybe we could try hybridising some psalmopoeus or pterinochilus?


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Chaika said:


> No, but are ligers and tigons fertile and can they produce their own offspring? I believe that used to be the full definition of a species (where individuals breed together and produce fertile offspring). Because if they can't then there is no question of 'polluting the line' since they cannot be crossed back, but if they can then surely there is little to separate them as different species, and likewise with any tarantula 'hybrids'.



I think ligers were bred back with a lion and if I remember correctly were called something like lili's .


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Chaika said:


> Intersting, I'd go with something that grows fast so that you can have some second generations in a few of years rather than 20 . Maybe we could try hybridising some psalmopoeus or pterinochilus?


Like I said, the will to follow through is a necessity :lol2:

The only way to 'jump ahead' is to import pairs of WC from the various localities, and as this is now banned under Chilean law, I doubt that is a possibility. Of course, if we could source A1 undisputed adults, that would circumvent the Chile ban.


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## brownj6709 (Jan 26, 2010)

Have you seen al the downsides to ligers? all the problems they develop with age e.t.c 

granted you could get some 'different' looking T's but theres such a wide rangeout there allready i dont see the point lol


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

brownj6709 said:


> i dont see the point lol


Curiosity?
Probably the same reason they produce ligers


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## brownj6709 (Jan 26, 2010)

Chaika said:


> Curiosity?
> Probably the same reason they produce ligers


You herd what happend to the cat lol


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Mutley.100 said:


> I think ligers were bred back with a lion and if I remember correctly were called something like lili's .


I think that shows that our definition of species is much more rigid then the natural system that we try to impose it on.


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Chaika said:


> I think that shows that our definition of species is much more rigid then the natural system that we try to impose it on.


But isn't that the whole point of classifying species ? 

How many threads have you seen with people asking what is this T ? Now add hybrids to the mix that may get out of peoples projects because they sell their collection off due to loss of interests or other commitments . 

Or are you saying you'd be able to euthanize 10's if not hundreds on T's you've bred and raised rather than see them screw up the hobby you once loved so much ?


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Mutley.100 said:


> But isn't that the whole point of classifying species ?
> 
> How many threads have you seen with people asking what is this T ? Now add hybrids to the mix that may get out of peoples projects because they sell their collection off due to loss of interests or other commitments .
> 
> Or are you saying you'd be able to euthanize 10's if not hundreds on T's you've bred and raised rather than see them screw up the hobby you once loved so much ?


There are probably already hybrids in the mix anyway, what with the pet stores giving out the wrong common or scientific name and with some species looking so similar. I have no idea whether I actually have a _Sericopelma rubronitens_ or a _Brachypelma vagans_, they look almost identical to me. Suppose I took it at face value, I could go on to breed the two sp together by accident and unknowingly produce a hybrid. I'm convinced that this has already happened and will happen again. What I don't understand is why hybrids would then 'screw up the hobby'? If you come across someone who appears to have a hybrid T then you would tell them that you think its a hybrid,.. surely?


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Chaika said:


> There are probably already hybrids in the mix anyway, what with the pet stores giving out the wrong common or scientific name and with some species looking so similar. I have no idea whether I actually have a _*(1)*Sericopelma rubronitens_ or a _Brachypelma vagans_, they look almost identical to me. Suppose I took it at face value, I could go on to breed the two sp together by accident and unknowingly produce a hybrid. I'm convinced that this has already happened and will happen again. What I don't understand is why hybrids would then 'screw up the hobby'? *(2)*If you come across someone who appears to have a hybrid T then you would tell them that you think its a hybrid,.. surely?


(1) the hobby B.vagans is supposed to be a mess anyway , but there's a difference between unknowingly breeding hybrids and hybridizing for the fun of it .

(2) So tell me , how would you go about telling if a T is a hybrid without taking it to an expert ? It's sometimes hard enough to tell what a species by photo without taking into account hybrids .


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Mutley.100 said:


> there's a difference between unknowingly breeding hybrids and hybridizing for the fun of it.


 What's the difference to the hobby though? In practical terms the result is the same: hybrid tarantulas from mixed stock.... Actually I think it's worse in some ways because if you unknowingly create hybrids then you cannot pass that information to anyone who buys your spiders (since you don't realise yourself) whereas if you're doing it on purpose then you can at least inform people about it.



Mutley.100 said:


> (2) So tell me , how would you go about telling if a T is a hybrid without taking it to an expert ? It's sometimes hard enough to tell what a species by photo without taking into account hybrids .


Then surely we shouldn't be offering unqualified opinions on the possible identity of a species at all, without having the person take it to an expert? With all the mistakes we could make by doing it using a blurry photo from 1ft away we're positively encouraging the crossbreeding of different forms of the same species and sometimes hybridisation of spiders that simply appear to be the same species. But the hobby isn't collapsing . I still don't see anything wrong with that person wanting to have a (possibly!) hybrid chilean tarantula as his pet, why not?

How I would go about telling if it was a hybrid? I wouldn't, I would simply give the person my opinion with the usual disclaimer that if they want to be 100% sure they should take it to an expert. No difference there.


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## Mutley.100 (Nov 3, 2008)

Chaika said:


> What's the difference to the hobby though? In practical terms the result is the same: hybrid tarantulas from mixed stock.... Actually I think it's worse in some ways because if you unknowingly create hybrids then you cannot pass that information to anyone who buys your spiders (since you don't realise yourself) whereas if you're doing it on purpose then you can at least inform people about it.


There is no real practical difference but I believe people should have the best possible chance on knowing what they're buying . After all labels get misplaced or just gotten wrong either by mistake or intentionally . 



Chaika said:


> Then surely we shouldn't be offering unqualified opinions on the possible identity of a species at all, without having the person take it to an expert? With all the mistakes we could make by doing it using a blurry photo from 1ft away we're positively encouraging the crossbreeding of different forms of the same species and sometimes hybridisation of spiders that simply appear to be the same species. But the hobby isn't collapsing . I still don't see anything wrong with that person wanting to have a (possibly!) hybrid chilean tarantula as his pet, why not?
> 
> How I would go about telling if it was a hybrid? I wouldn't, I would simply give the person my opinion with the usual disclaimer that if they want to be 100% sure they should take it to an expert. No difference there.


You and I seem to be of a similar opinion where giving a disclaimer is warranted but there seem to be quite a few people who give their opinion as fact even on the worst pictures . 

As for someone wanting to keep a hybrid , there's no way I can stop them (not until the universe realises it's mistake and makes me a god) . But I'd like to try and restrict the propagation to people that wouldn't spread offspring .


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## Lerg (Apr 15, 2010)

LeviathanNI said:


> I digress here, but who amongst us is happy to look into the hybridisation question more scientifically? I'm thinking a group of us who would set up a controlled experiment and compare notes etc, with the view of putting out report?
> It would be interesting, and no one else (that I am aware of) is doing it.


Personally I would love to try this, to actually to do things properly, have a record of the parents and species, and make a sub species of what the babies come out as, research them thoroughly aswell find out what traits they have from each parent and also to see if the offspring are fertile as in most cases of hybridisation the offspring are usually infertile to begin with.

Personally I dont think that getting more colour morphs in our hobby is needed, we have a plethora of colours and different species available and by messing up bloodline of certain species we could effectively take them out of our hobby altogether, which in my humble oppinion is just not worth it.

This again is just my oppinion and no doubt ill have people agreeing and people disagreeing, but I do believe any individual who hybrizises any species should make note of what they mixed and also pass this on to any buyers of their offspring so that they are not mated with the true species to cause another line of hybrids slightly different from the original and effectively getting weaker and weaker in sequence.

A bit of food for thought.


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Great... so we have three so far! 

Just as a side note, I plan to Euthanise any hybrids that go beyond the experiment, or ones that I can't keep for their natural lifespan.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

I don't see the issue Whats wrong with being after some


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## Tavor21 (May 24, 2010)

Because hybrid is like a tabby cat with a tiger it doesnt work. This guy is an idiot simple. species naturally evolve, but the original species stays the same. Just let nature take it course


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

Tavor21 said:


> Because hybrid is like a tabby cat with
> 
> ```
> 
> ...


An. Yret Bengal or savannah cats,do its nothing like a tiger mix there similar size and the same,species its,like saying that mixed race,people are wrong


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

This thread makes me laugh, are all the folk who say its bad going to go and get there Poddle PTS or there gold fish flushed down the loo? Man has bred animasl through selection for years to create all sorts of weird and wonderful creations.

Calling the lad an idiot because he wants to pair two god awful tarantulas is a bit harsh really isn't it? He is only doing what thousands of other have done before him. 

Im off to buy a morph royal to join the rest of the cool crew


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Mostly man bred animals to serve a purpose.. say longer hair on cows to survive harsher elements.. dogs that retrieve as opposed to eat.


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## Kamike (Aug 3, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> Mostly man bred animals to serve a purpose.. say longer hair on cows to survive harsher elements.. dogs that retrieve as opposed to eat.


Gold fish?

Agreed some animal were bred for a purpose but most were bred to be pets which is what Ged is trying to do. I don't see a difference tbh


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

LeviathanNI said:


> Mostly man bred animals to serve a purpose.. say longer hair on cows to survive harsher elements.. dogs that retrieve as opposed to eat.


U MEAN LIKE THE BRITISH BULLDOG THEY BRED FROM.THE,ORIGINAL BULLDOG THEY MADE HAVE SUCH A SMALL.MUZZLE IT COULD HARDLY BREATH OR SO SHORT AND FAT IT CAN HARDLY RUN OR,BY MAKING A ANIMAL ALBINO IT SERVED BETTER PURPOSE,SERIOUSLY WE'VE CREATED LOADS,OF BREEDS AND MORPHS,EITHER FOR MONEY OR COZ WE WANNA:bash::whistling2:


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I think if you look at KC pictures from 100 years ago, and look at the breds now, you will see a massive difference. It is only recently, say the last 50-75 years, that these breeds have been created for vanity.


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

leviathanni said:


> i think if you look at kc pictures from 100 years ago, and look at the breds now, you will see a massive difference. It is only recently, say the last 50-75 years, that these breeds have been created for vanity.


i own a olde tyme bulldog so i no exactly what they used to look like but i'm just saying threes nothing wronh with this hybrid natural hybridisation occurs,in the wild with certain species anyways


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## jaykickboxer (Feb 11, 2008)

leviathanni said:


> i think if you look at kc pictures from 100 years ago, and look at the breds now, you will see a massive difference. It is only recently, say the last 50-75 years, that these breeds have been created for vanity.


1902,todays british buldog was created


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

jaykickboxer said:


> i own a olde tyme bulldog so i no exactly what they used to look like but i'm just saying threes nothing wronh with this hybrid natural hybridisation occurs,in the wild with certain species anyways


This is a quote that's often seen as a good argument for hybridising but it doesnt take into account many factors including the proximity of the two species. The hybridising of G. rosea and G. porteri would involve putting together two species that could possibly be 100s of miles apart. Most people seem to not even know the two species exist separately so its far from a purposeful experiment.

Tarantula keeping is in its infancy and the science that understands this side of the spiderworld is also lacking proper study. 

With curiousity should come responsibility. If people are curious about whether its possible they should be responsible enough to make sure these don't enter the hobby. Some might find this an interesting read from 2006:
Iheringia. Série Zoologia - Reproductive isolation among three populations of the genus Grammostola from Uruguay (Araneae, Theraphosidae)

There is another benefit of hybridising on a personal note. I make a note of those who suggest its a good idea - I certainly don't want them having my mature males.


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## Peacemaker1987 (May 21, 2009)

Well i have seen reports of natural hybridisation between Polar bears from the arctic and Brown bears from alaska, so there are cases of it happening in the wild, and there is no reason to say that it would not, and does not happen with tarantulas in the wild...i guess we'll never REALLY know.
I personally think however that if done under strict and controlled parameters and the stock is not leaked into the hobby and researched on for a number of years then it would be a good way to learn more about the genetics of tarantulas and how traits are passed down. I think as oppose to looking in to colour morphs however (because as many people have already said, there are loads of gorgeous colours already) it would be far more interesting to look at how other traits are passed down i.e. aggression.

That is just my opinion.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. We're hobbyists here, not a captive breeding program for arachnids. Why not produce some new combinations or different colours? It might even shed some light on the actual genetic relationships between the different species. And if you're selling some hybrid offspring, then just let people know what they're getting


I more or less agree with this. I am yet to see a good argument as to why not to hybridize species. I think curosity is about this best argument to hybridize and if you feel you want to give it a try just for fun they go a head, I see nothi ng wrong with this at all.
Poxicator that article is interesting but only if you are wanting to keep your spiders "pure" and if you are doing this then you are not buying single males or females from any old tom, dick or harry but are instead buying 10-20 same species from one same shipment and then consentrating on this breeding group. Any you sell on are recorded to who etc for possible breeding in the future....anyone really doing this to any great extent?....no? then most if not all hobby spiders are possible hybrids in my opinion only we are not sure which is which.
For the DNA thing to be any use then you need the DNA of wild caught spiders first so as to be able to compare any hobby stuff to. The same goes for taxonomy specimens. If people are describing and reclassifing from hobby material then IMHO the work is a waste of time as it could well be hybrids they are working on.



> There is another benefit of hybridising on a personal note. I make a note of those who suggest its a good idea - I certainly don't want them having my mature males.


sorry I just found this funny as you yourself were advertizing a male A. sp. avicularia (which could be almost any avic sp ) with the words 


> The male came from a reliable source but I'm struggling to remember who that was.


then later you say


> Ive now traced the slings origin, as much as a I can. They were CB and sold as sling Feb 08 by Steve West.


so what information is this?CB from WC parents or pure background? How many different types of avic did he have on his table? from what country? As much as you can?are you still not 100% sure? 
Do you understand what I mean a little as it seems to me you are guilty of doing the same thing that you are so set againts to avoid.:lol2:


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

Poxicator said:


> This is a quote that's often seen as a good argument for hybridising but it doesnt take into account many factors including the proximity of the two species. The hybridising of G. rosea and G. porteri would involve putting together two species that could possibly be 100s of miles apart. Most people seem to not even know the two species exist separately so its far from a purposeful experiment.
> 
> Tarantula keeping is in its infancy and the science that understands this side of the spiderworld is also lacking proper study.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that paper.. it is something useful for me as a template, and I will wing off a few emails to Rodrigo Postiglioni & Fernando G. Costa to see what they think.
As for the mature male thing.. I am a pretty straight forward guy, so anything like that would be upfront, and with the knowledge that euthanasia will be in practise come the end of the experiment. Like I said, I am a puritan when it comes to vanity genetic mixing of animals. Likewise, any slings will be sent to those who are a part of the experiment, and wouldn't dirty the lines.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Wow im impressed this debate aint turned into a mud slinging match lmao.

I feel that hybridisation should be kept for lab conditions at least then the pros and cons can be recorded properly. I dont see the point in ruining our hobby any further by breeding species together. Does anyone else not enjoy buying a species and knowing its that 100% ( or course there are people that ruin this).


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

selina20 said:


> Wow im impressed this debate aint turned into a mud slinging match lmao.
> 
> I feel that hybridisation should be kept for lab conditions at least then the pros and cons can be recorded properly. I dont see the point in ruining our hobby any further by breeding species together. Does anyone else not enjoy buying a species and knowing its that 100% ( or course there are people that ruin this).


I'm quite enjoying this debate too.

I still don't see why breeding species together would 'ruin' the hobby? I can understand your point about preferring to know what you're buying but to be fair not many of us (non tarantula specialist entomologists) can say with 100% certainty that we know what we're buying or selling for that matter. My B. smithi is a B. smithi (I think!) but only because it looks a lot like a B. smithi, it could be that it just looks like a B. smithi but is actually a separate subspecies etc. Now this species is relatively easily recognisable but there are many that aren't and you are relying on the seller's (possibly incomplete) knowledge for the information. 

So if you already can't tell whether or not what you're buying is a hybrid in many cases (I'm assuming here that you are not an entomologist specialising in tarantulas!) why would it bother you to see some slings for sale at a show labelled 'NCF x RCF G. rosea hybrid' or even 'P. murinus x chordatus hybrid'?


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## garlicpickle (Jan 16, 2009)

Chaika said:


> why would it bother you to see some slings for sale at a show labelled 'NCF x RCF G. rosea hybrid' or even 'P. murinus x chordatus hybrid'?


or cambridgei x irminia hybrid?

(and no this isn't mine)


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

garlicpickle said:


> or cambridgei x irminia hybrid?
> 
> (and no this isn't mine)


I have heard of this one! Very interesting look too  I wonder what an irminia x pulcher would look like?
There's also a photo of a B. emelia x boehmei hybrid on birdspiders.com:


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## GRB (Jan 24, 2008)

Personally, I'm not bothered if people create hybrids so long as it's done with attention - correct labels, records etc. Even simple details need to be recorded, as "G. [boehmei x vagans]" is not the same as "G.[vagans x boehmei]". 

In an ideal world, there wouldn't any issues if people took it seriously and were not motivated by greed. However, since I think a good chunk of casual hobbyists wouldn't take it seriously enough, then I'm against hybrids for the masses. A few hybrids produced by responsible keepers - it's not going to ruin the hobby IMO.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

GRB said:


> Personally, I'm not bothered if people create hybrids so long as it's done with attention - correct labels, records etc. Even simple details need to be recorded, as "G. [boehmei x vagans]" is not the same as "G.[vagans x boehmei]".
> 
> In an ideal world, there wouldn't any issues if people took it seriously and were not motivated by greed. However, since I think a good chunk of casual hobbyists wouldn't take it seriously enough, then I'm against hybrids for the masses. A few hybrids produced by responsible keepers - it's not going to ruin the hobby IMO.


I agree with this completely. However is this likely to happen??????


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

As soon as anyone sees a way to make money, all ethics will go up in the air, and we will have to run the maze of getting pure species.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

LeviathanNI said:


> As soon as anyone sees a way to make money, all ethics will go up in the air, and we will have to run the maze of getting pure species.


Exactly my point.

Why make this hobby into the same as all other animal breeding projects?????????


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## Genseric (Oct 7, 2007)

I have no intentions of doing that.. but others will. Soon you will see threads about power feeding etc etc.. It seems the way these things go.

The only good thing we have on our side is the length of time till maturity etc


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

LeviathanNI said:


> I have no intentions of doing that.. but others will. Soon you will see threads about power feeding etc etc.. It seems the way these things go.
> 
> The only good thing we have on our side is the length of time till maturity etc


True and how many from each sac will make it to adult hood. I dont agree with power feeding etc. I prefer to feed mine a couple of times in a month similar to how they would eat in the wild.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

selina20 said:


> Why make this hobby into the same as all other animal breeding projects?????????


I think it already is... Otherwise why would anyone pay over £200 for a pair of P. metallica or a M. balfouri? It's almost certainly not to keep them as pets. I might be being too cynical, but I think many people would do it to set up a breeding project and then make a lot of money on the slings... 

Anyhoo, I'm with Baldpoodle and GRB, nothing wrong with hybridising in principle as long as records are kept and there's accurate labelling so that everyone knows what they're buying.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Chaika said:


> I think it already is... Otherwise why would anyone pay over £200 for a pair of P. metallica or a M. balfouri? It's almost certainly not to keep them as pets. I might be being too cynical, but I think many people would do it to set up a breeding project and then make a lot of money on the slings...
> 
> Anyhoo, I'm with Baldpoodle and GRB, nothing wrong with hybridising in principle as long as records are kept and there's accurate labelling so that everyone knows what they're buying.


But those of us that dont keep those spiders certainly arent for it to turn to be like the other hobbies.

I also agree with BP and GRB but i cant see many people doing that.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

LeviathanNI said:


> As soon as anyone sees a way to make money, all ethics will go up in the air, and we will have to run the maze of getting pure species.


Assuming, of course, that we are getting 'pure species' now, right? Which is seriously debatable in some cases.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Chaika said:


> Assuming, of course, that we are getting 'pure species' now, right? Which is seriously debatable in some cases.


Agreed this is why i never buy an avic without seeing it or knowing who bred it.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

Tee-hee BP, good to see you doing your homework.
All the MM I send out I check as well as I can for proper ID, I also ask the breeder for information on their females. I much prefer to get a history on the two Ts but this isnt always possible. In the instance you quote it seems Steve West has left the hobby so its become hard to find further details other than the history of the breeding with the AP forums prior to February 2008. From my records these were CB by a hobbyist, the parents of which were imported but I can't guarantee that to be 100% correct and therefore I'm not going to say it is. These, IMO, will always be A. sp. avicularia whether the mess of Avicularia is sorted out or not.
On another of my breeding projects concerning C. fasciata I asked for clarification from Ray Gabriel (whilst he was in Panama) which led to an ID of C. pentalore. The original ID was by photograph but subsequently at BTS in May 2010 both the male and female were shown to Ray. (I'm sure you're aware of why C. fasciata wasnt suspected).
Not all species are as confusing as the above, but I still take the time to make sure, as best I can, that they are of the same species, eg leg marking with Pokies, and the blondi arguments.
I could labour the point, but the objective is clear, to determine to the best of the information provided that hybridising is avoided. To the contrary is your argument, and that of others, which suggests its fine because the offspring will be sold as hybrids. I think the hybrid label will be quickly lost and I don't think thats good for our captive bred population.
If we return to the original point of this post and if we refer to the thread linked at the start we see not a study of hybrids, not a record of genetics or any of the suggestions posed as a positive for keeping hybrids. He wants them coz they're "cool" !!!


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## empirecook (Sep 1, 2009)

"Hybrids" have been proven to be problematic:











Want a proper proper Hybrid?...go for this:








:2thumb:


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## 34531 (May 27, 2009)

Perhaps he'll decide on a nice DWA croc or viper next, because it's so damned cool not knowing what you're doing and getting munched by your own pet.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

empirecook said:


> "Hybrids" have been proven to be problematic:


To be fair, that spider's mutation might have nothing to do with the fact that it was a hybrid, since all of its siblings were perfectly fine. It looks like just a random mutation. There have been other cases where mutant individuals have been found in sacks that had nothing to do with hybridisation, just check out robc's 'siamese irminia twins' thread on arachnoboards.com

So I would correct your statement so say: "breeding spiders has been proven to be problematic"


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## naturechris (Apr 23, 2009)

has there ever been a study to see the rate of mutation in a normal breeding vs hybrid?


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

selina20 said:


> I agree with this completely. However is this likely to happen??????


off course not, because hardly anyone keeps records which is why hybrids are out there in the first place. 



> Assuming, of course, that we are getting 'pure species' now, right? Which is seriously debatable in some cases.


quite true, even species from a same shipment that look the same may be different species, as collection details for shiped out spiders are very vague at the best of times. I would only trust those species that are collected in an "unorthadoxed" way if this "pure" factor was of great isshue to ´me.


> Agreed this is why i never buy an avic without seeing it or knowing who bred it.


So are you compareing them in a taxomical way? Otherwise how is seeing it making is so because looking the same is often not being the same. 



> These, IMO, will always be A. sp. avicularia whether the mess of Avicularia is sorted out or not.


yours but maybe not everyones, so this is where your problem begins because the the same and others which have the same name may not be the same, you see where I'm going with this?


> I could labour the point, but the objective is clear, to determine to the best of the information provided that hybridising is avoided.


So if you do your best but still can not be sure (as in the avic case) why not say it and say possible hybrid in the advert?



> To the contrary is your argument, and that of others, which suggests its fine because the offspring will be sold as hybrids. I think the hybrid label will be quickly lost and I don't think thats good for our captive bred population.


IMO the reason the hybrid label gets lost is because of the stupid stigma that gets placed on them by some people.



> If we return to the original point of this post and if we refer to the thread linked at the start we see not a study of hybrids, not a record of genetics or any of the suggestions posed as a positive for keeping hybrids. He wants them coz they're "cool" !!!


And whats wrong with that? Some people keep other species because they are cool I am sure so where is the problem?



> fu**ing hybrids.....the people who breed them must be retarded and its all for profit. this subject makes me really really fuc*ing angry. FUC*ing fools.
> 
> ooh ooh does anyone have any midnight chocolate, purple star reverse albino pokies for sale???
> 
> ...


I take it this is a joke post yes? If not then I think you may be the retarded person here.



> To be fair, that spider's mutation might have nothing to do with the fact that it was a hybrid, since all of its siblings were perfectly fine. It looks like just a random mutation. There have been other cases where mutant individuals have been found in sacks that had nothing to do with hybridisation, just check out robc's 'siamese irminia twins' thread on arachnoboards.com
> 
> So I would correct your statement so say: "breeding spiders has been proven to be problematic"


Ok so these 'siamese irminia twins' have also been found in the wild, as documented in a french book by J. Verdez case in hand is an Acantoscurria sp if I remember right. 
as for the proper hybrid photo of that car well I tend to agree with the guys on Top Gear about that one lol.


> has there ever been a study to see the rate of mutation in a normal breeding vs hybrid?


probably not as the mutation in anything is relitivly rare. How for example would you even do a study? you would need to use hundreds of spiders and I think a fair few generations. Don't foeget some mutations may not be even be visible so a disection of every dead you get would have to be done also to even get a half decent result. Lets face it although an interesting question I don't think the world of science will suffer much if such a study was not done but if you wish to undertake such a task, good luck in getting the funding lol.


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> If we return to the original point of this post and if we refer to the thread linked at the start we see not a study of hybrids, not a record of genetics or any of the suggestions posed as a positive for keeping hybrids. He wants them coz they're "cool" !!!


I don't see much wrong with that either to be honest,.. As long as he has the correct husbandry knowledge etc. Besides why do the rest of us keep tarantulas may I ask? Because we really appreciate their beautiful markings, diverse adaptations to different environments and interesting behaviour. Which is just a longer and more detailed way of saying that we like them 'coz they're cool!' surely?


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

So, you believe this young lad is after the correct husbandry knowledge? of even interested in that?


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## Chaika (Jun 5, 2009)

Poxicator said:


> So, you believe this young lad is after the correct husbandry knowledge? of even interested in that?


I try not to judge people by the way they write on forums (as tempting as that may be). Just because he uses the words 'coz' and 'cool' does not have to mean that he is ignorant of the care requirements of a tarantula...

If he was not interested in the husbandry or did not know how to take care of a G. rosea, I would see that in itself as the main issue, rather than him wanting to own a hybrid animal.


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## Poxicator (Nov 14, 2007)

I haven't judged him on his use of language either, it was you that suggested "As long as he has the correct husbandry knowledge etc". I merely asked if you believe he is after that information. 
I think the main issue is that he's asking for one and someone else has suggested he has some.

BP: I see exactly where you're going but its based on the assumption that I can be accurate that its 100% hybrid, which to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Do you sell your Ts as hybrids? Are you 100% sure that your collection is not?
As you know there's very few Avics given a correct ID so hypothetically many of the species we have in the hobby could be one species, with mere size and coloration differences based on their localities. 
The difference to me is very wide. The intention to obtain as accurate an ID as possible to maintain pure species OR the acceptance that many species we have are already hybrids and long may it continue. I believe we have a choice, even if the latter is true, and a responsibility to seek those pure species. 
I also believe that once we've messed up our CB species enough that we can no longer trust accuracy on certain species we encourage further poaching of protected species/environs to fulfil our desires. Its my opinion therefore that the indirect consequence of hybridising supports more illegal exports.


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## Baldpoodle (Apr 18, 2007)

> BP: I see exactly where you're going but its based on the assumption that I can be accurate that its 100% hybrid, which to the best of my knowledge it isn't.


Fair enough CB from a source unknown is good enough then.



> Do you sell your Ts as hybrids? Are you 100% sure that your collection is not?


Yes I would if I did not know the source of my stock I was selling. One or two of my spiders sure I suspect they are hybrids. Many I know 99% are not due to source I brought or were given from and I only leave the 1% open due to possibility of natural hybrids but I am sure in most of my species this chance is very slim.



> As you know there's very few Avics given a correct ID so hypothetically many of the species we have in the hobby could be one species, with mere size and coloration differences based on their localities.


yep quite awear of this 


> The difference to me is very wide.


so would breeding different colour forms be ok with you then?


> The intention to obtain as accurate an ID as possible to maintain pure species OR the acceptance that many species we have are already hybrids and long may it continue.


Sure I agree that to try and maintain pure stock is important but I still see no reason why Hybrids species is going to be a problem for those people who are serious enough about keeping their own species pure. I have some "pure" species myself but do not find it a problem to keep them that way when it comes for breeding purposes.


> I believe we have a choice, even if the latter is true, and a responsibility to seek those pure species.


yes the choice is either or both and what responsibility? to who or what?


> I also believe that once we've messed up our CB species enough that we can no longer trust accuracy on certain species we encourage further poaching of protected species/environs to fulfil our desires.


examples? the poaching will go on regardless of hybrids in the hobby or not. Where there is a trade in them then there is going to be poaching of them. Hybrid spiders have no effect on this what so ever.


> Its my opinion therefore that the indirect consequence of hybridising supports more illegal exports.


err illegal and legal exports are the direct consequence of the pet trade in the first place and I think where your hybrids unknowningly come from due to the bad collection data.


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## selina20 (May 28, 2008)

Lol BP i dont keep avics for that reason.

That deformed spider was nothing to do with hybridisation. RPAR had a sling with a similar problem earlier this year. They certainly werent hybrids and the rest of the sac was fine.


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