# zoo keepers wanted



## levinas (Feb 12, 2013)

Seen this posted on FB and thought some one on here was looking at a career in the area.

'Exciting Vacancy for 2014....
We are taking on new animal carers (Zoo keepers). Preferably with previous animal / bird experience either in a zoo or on a farm or Stables environment. A permanent position with an exciting opportunity to be involved in worldwide renowned conservation programmes and animal management. It is ESSENTIAL that you have smart appearance, a passion to work hard, reliable team worker and a willingness to learn and enhance your knowledge consistently. Dress code applies , 3 month appraisal time, accommodation may be available. Apply by message on here, by e mail to Helen Burnett at [email protected] please forward this message as widely as possible.

south lakes wildlife park'

Best of luck to any applicants.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Would not wish that job upon my worst enemy!


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## Far2lively (Sep 8, 2012)

mrcriss said:


> Would not wish that job upon my worst enemy!


Why not?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Far2lively said:


> Why not?


I take it you've never been to or read much about South Lakes Safari Slum then?


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> Would not wish that job upon my worst enemy!


Heh, I saw this before reading the post, and knew where it must have been for. 

I've not been there myself, but I would think that a 'zoo keeper' role anywhere would at least help you get another job of a similar role somewhere else.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

em_40 said:


> Heh, I saw this before reading the post, and knew where it must have been for.
> 
> I've not been there myself, but I would think that a 'zoo keeper' role anywhere would at least help you get another job of a similar role somewhere else.


Not if you took anything you learned there as the correct way to keep animals! 

Still....at least they have a sterling reputation for releasing animals back into the wild. It's a shame in this case that "the wild" is rural Cumbria! :whistling2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Not if you took anything you learned there as the *correct way to keep animals!*
> 
> Still....at least they have a sterling reputation for releasing animals back into the wild. It's a shame in this case that "the wild" is rural Cumbria! :whistling2:


Interesting choice of words there mate, elaborate on what is the correct way to keep animals 
Last I had checked, husbandry was subjective and varible, infact you will probably find, comparing 2 zoos together, that they do things very differently!


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## em_40 (Sep 29, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> Still....at least they have a sterling reputation for releasing animals back into the wild. It's a shame in this case that "the wild" is rural Cumbria! :whistling2:


Made me lol.

and one would hope that at least people on here maybe have some experience of keeping animals already, and can use common sense. Plus follow the regulations set in the new job when it comes.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Interesting choice of words there mate, elaborate on what is the correct way to keep animals


Welllllll......it's certainly NOT to keep animals from vastly different habitats with vastly different requirements in the same bare enrichment free enclosure (sloths and fennecs!)

It's certainly NOT to keep big cats locked inside tiny bare dens all day with faeces smeared all over the walls.

It's certainly NOT to let animals disappear willy nilly and just say "ah well"!

It's certainly NOT to put visitors in potentially dangerous situations! (Free ranging anaconda!)

It's certainly NOT to get yourself maimed or killed whilst on the job!



All this and not forgetting the habituary rudeness towards guests and regular abuse from the zoo's egomaniac proprietor when any of his methods are challenged or if anyone dares to keep exotic animals privately at their own homes!


Is that enough?


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## varanus87 (Jan 30, 2012)

mrcriss said:


> Welllllll......it's certainly NOT to keep animals from vastly different habitats with vastly different requirements in the same bare enrichment free enclosure (sloths and fennecs!)
> 
> It's certainly NOT to keep big cats locked inside tiny bare dens all day with faeces smeared all over the walls.
> 
> ...


Any proof of any of these allegations or just regular rfuk bullsh1t and hating ?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

varanus87 said:


> Any proof of any of these allegations or just regular rfuk bullsh1t and hating ?


Yes. From both experience of my own visits (seeing with my own eyes), from news reports when incidents occur, and from the accounts given from past and present staff who I happen to be friendly with.


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## DaOG (Jun 6, 2013)

mrcriss said:


> Still....at least they have a sterling reputation for releasing animals back into the wild. It's a shame in this case that "the wild" is rural Cumbria! :whistling2:


They lost many big cats?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

DaOG said:


> They lost many big cats?


If I were to answer that, we'd be heading into libel territory, because I couldn't back that up.
I do know there is/used to be small populations of very random smaller animals in the Lakes though! Wonder where they came from?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Yes. From both experience of my own visits (seeing with my own eyes), from news reports when incidents occur, and from the accounts given from past and present staff who I happen to be friendly with.


But isn't that the keepers jobs, and frankly, someone who works in a zoo whos methods are challanged, I find murky if they are kept in conditions like that, surely they would have to meet some kind of standards. 

And secondly, it is no-ones business what goes on in peoples private lives, if you as a zoo keeper want to keep a snake, it isn't illegal, and if my life was made to be difficult because of that from that individual, I would consider going down the proper legal avenues?. 

I haven't seen any proof of those claims made mind.


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## DaOG (Jun 6, 2013)

mrcriss said:


> If I were to answer that, we'd be heading into libel territory, because I couldn't back that up.
> I do know there is/used to be small populations of very random smaller animals in the Lakes though! Wonder where they came from?


No idea but I am sure they could have a home else where if they get found


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I haven't seen any proof of those claims made mind.



Which claims in particular?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Which claims in particular?


Pretty much all of them. 



> It's certainly NOT to keep big cats locked inside tiny bare dens all day with faeces smeared all over the walls.
> 
> It's certainly NOT to let animals disappear willy nilly and just say "ah well"!
> 
> ...


: victory:


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## DaOG (Jun 6, 2013)

mrcriss said:


> Which claims in particular?


I think he means these claims





mrcriss said:


> Welllllll......it's certainly NOT to keep animals from vastly different habitats with vastly different requirements in the same bare enrichment free enclosure (sloths and fennecs!)
> 
> It's certainly NOT to keep big cats locked inside tiny bare dens all day with faeces smeared all over the walls.
> 
> ...


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## aquajird (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, the dead keeper claim is correct. I Read about it in the newspapers. The owner tried to make out that it was all the keeper's fault, but it all seemed a bit odd to me. She sounded like an experienced an dedicated keeper yet was being accused of making very basic mistakes. It didn't add up.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> Welllllll......it's certainly NOT to keep animals from vastly different habitats with vastly different requirements in the same bare enrichment free enclosure (sloths and fennecs!)
> I GUESS YOU'D HAVE TO GO THERE TO SEE THIS.
> 
> It's certainly NOT to keep big cats locked inside tiny bare dens all day with faeces smeared all over the walls.
> ...


Filthy big cat den….like this all the time.
Snow leopard » South Lakes Wild Animal Park Gallery Oh, and the reason the picture is so blurry? 'Cos the viewing window is also smeared with cat crap! 

Free ranging anaconda….potentially very dangerous to the public.
Free range Yellow Anaconda » South Lakes Wild Animal Park Gallery


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

What animals have escaped from there?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> All this and not forgetting the habituary rudeness towards guests and regular abuse from the zoo's egomaniac proprietor when any of his methods are challenged or if anyone dares to keep exotic animals privately at their own homes!


Oh, and for this one you only need to join the Facebook group. The admin of the group are habitually rude, and when questioned you get a ton of abuse and then banned…..has happened many many times to many many people.

They also regularly make posts slamming the keeping of exotics in private homes…..most recently when they took in an ex-pet raccoon (which looked very well cared for and the picture of health).


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Beardy Boy97 said:


> What animals have escaped from there?


Most notably a rhino….but that fell into a ditch and was shot before it left zoo property. It was all over the news.


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## Drayvan (Jul 7, 2010)

Long story short, a quick look through the tinterwebs doesn't paint a fantastic picture of the establishment or the owner... certainly not somewhere I'd apply for a job! Good luck to anyone that does apply, they'll need it!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Let's not forget the £30,000 that Mr Gill had to pay to a young pregnant keeper that he made climb up a 16ft pole to feed his tigers.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Filthy big cat den….like this all the time.
> Snow leopard » South Lakes Wild Animal Park Gallery
> 
> Free ranging anaconda….potentially very dangerous to the public.
> Free range Yellow Anaconda » South Lakes Wild Animal Park Gallery



So has it not crossed your mind, that it is the zoo keepers jobs to ensure that their 5 freedoms are met? what I see on that image is, nothing a bucket of hot soapy water wouldn't fix, which would raise my concerns at the actual keepers themselves! if that was the case. That particular thread has said, that it shares an outdoor enclosure run with other species in rotation, there isn't anything wrong with that tbh, which means they are not there all the time! as you claimed they were?

Perhaps that particular photograph was took at a time before cleaning mainteanance, to me it actually doesn't look like old or stuck which doesn't really support your claim that they are in there all the time living in filth? 

Appenheul primate park and Burger's Zoo in Holland have free range animals caiman iguanas etc etc, pretty much an indoor rainforest, pretty risky for people to go and view wouldn't you agree? walk through exhibits are not dangerous providing the risk assesment and management is to reduce that risk (ensure the snake is well fed etc) , it also states on the thread you linked up, that this exhibit has warning signs warning people or approachers that the snake will bite, which imo is fair, don't approach the snake, you don't get bitten, simples.  

I probably will visit this zoo at some point, but I wouldn't say that their husbandry is the worst based merely on just a few pictures and the word of someoen who claims to know some keepers who worked there, with some kind of story about how if you challange anything or keep anything privately your life is going to be made a living hell? I could go into my pet shop tomorrow, take a picture of a bearded dragon that had a crap, then post it up saying look they never cleaned it.  

Granted their husbandry isn't the best I have seen, for a zoo setting, but I would hardly call it the worst either. 

: victory:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> So has it not crossed your mind, that it is the zoo keepers jobs to ensure that their 5 freedoms are met? what I see on that image is, nothing a bucket of hot soapy water wouldn't fix, which would raise my concerns at the actual keepers themselves! if that was the case. That particular thread has said, that it shares an outdoor enclosure run with other species in rotation, there isn't anything wrong with that tbh, which means they are not there all the time! as you claimed they were?
> Never said they were there all the time, but on an alternate day basis. You see nothing wrong with that? Spending a whole day in that crappy mess would be unbearable! Especially during the hot summers!
> 
> Perhaps that particular photograph was took at a time before cleaning mainteanance, to me it actually doesn't look like old or stuck which doesn't really support your claim that they are in there all the time living in filth?
> ...


Holding up the 5 freedoms as something that keepers should aspire to is a little daft perhaps….especially as it's a public attraction! They should be far exceeding the 5 freedoms! However, if you were to take any cleanliness issue up with the zoo management, you get abuse hurled at you, because "they know best!"


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Another example of a big cat den at South Lakes. 
Indoor cat area at South Lakes WAP 26/11/11 » South Lakes Wild Animal Park Gallery


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

I have never been to this place and I always thought it was a good place but a quick look at Wikipedia mentions for separate occasions that something has happened


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Holding up the 5 freedoms as something that keepers should aspire to is a little daft perhaps….especially as it's a public attraction! They should be far exceeding the 5 freedoms! However, if you were to take any cleanliness issue up with the zoo management, you get abuse hurled at you, because "they know best!"


If I am wrong mrcriss, I will be the first one to hold up my camera and record the :censor:s as they hurl abuse at me  

Though I think they might just get as good as they give if that is true 

Having said that if I am wrong, I would probably uphold the very same arguments and warnings to people like you yourself are now doing, but I would probably support it up with hard factual evidence to support my claims. : victory:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> If I am wrong mrcriss, I will be the first one to hold up my camera and record the :censor:s as they hurl abuse at me
> 
> Though I think they might just get as good as they give if that is true
> 
> Having said that if I am wrong, I would probably uphold the very same arguments and warnings to people like you yourself are now doing, but I would probably support it up with hard factual evidence to support my claims. : victory:


Do you not think I've provided evidence? Do I really need to post links to news articles and such aswell? I don't really wish to drag up the gory details of earlier this year!

I'm afraid I don't have pics of some of the more ridiculous mixed exhibits (as I said, the humidity-loving rainforest dwelling sloth with the desert-dwelling fennec), which only serve as a sign of bad basic husbandry.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Do you not think I've provided evidence? Do I really need to post links to news articles and such swell? I don't really wish to drag up the gory details of earlier this year!
> 
> I'm afraid I don't have pics of some of the more ridiculous mixed exhibits (as I said, the humidity-loving rainforest dwelling sloth with the desert-dwelling fennec), which only serve as a sign of bad basic husbandry.


tbh not enough for me to take seriously or lean any judgement on, I will visit the zoo (intend to visit a few in the new year) and base my decision on that expirience, the "evidence" you provided, are threads, with comments that seem to contradict most of the things you originally said. : victory:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> tbh not enough for me to take seriously or lean any judgement on, I will visit the zoo (intend to visit a few in the new year) and base my decision on that expirience, the "evidence" you provided, are threads, with comments that seem to contradict most of the things you originally said. : victory:


How so, if you don't mind me asking? Which particular things? I believe I've substantiated all my claims! 

You seem to be dwelling on the cat rotation thing….I always said they do that, but the fact that anything has to spend whole days cooped up in those filthy dens is unacceptable!

The reputation that the zoo has amongst the animal keeping community is well deserved, believe me. I suggest you squeeze your visit in during the winter when it's free entry! 
(p.s. it's not free….there is a mandatory "donation" that nearly equates to the entrance fee. Maybe just advertise it as reduced entry?)
(p.p.s. they ask for the "donation" as you leave the park once you've spent in the cafe, the shop, and the animal feeds….so make sure you save some cash!)


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

Well lets examine this one for a moment, purely for relevance, I will highlight each point along side the points I will answer with a red colored number and then address each one separately.. 



mrcriss said:


> How so, if you don't mind me asking? Which particular things? I believe I've substantiated all my claims!
> 
> 1You seem to be dwelling on the cat rotation thing….I always said they do that, but the fact that anything has to spend whole days cooped up in those filthy dens is unacceptable!
> 
> ...



Welllllll......it's certainly NOT to keep animals from vastly different habitats with vastly different requirements in the same bare enrichment free enclosure (sloths and fennecs!)

1It's certainly NOT to keep big cats locked inside tiny bare dens all day with faeces smeared all over the walls.

2It's certainly NOT to let animals disappear willy nilly and just say "ah well"!

3It's certainly NOT to put visitors in potentially dangerous situations! (Free ranging anaconda!)

4It's certainly NOT to get yourself maimed or killed whilst on the job!

Since you mention it, your first claim was the one I put the number 1 nearby, this goes back to my origonal point, interpretation on minimum is very varible, look at our very own forum, lets take burmese pythons for example, there are arguments for and against keeping them in large and minimum enclosures, but here are the facts, on average a fully grown adult burmese python only burns off around 16 calories a day, to put that into perspective, we burn more off than that when we put a sandwich to our mouths, just from chewing, but as an ex zoo keeper you probably don't need me to tell you that, the arguments here are, that providing a large and enriched living area, and a restricted living area can both be right, both have thier advantages, though in the case of mammals I know it is difficult to make any sort of comparison in terms of biology anatomy, and physiology, but all my reading, and keeping of both reptiles, and mammals and my learning and understanding shows that husbandry is still subjective it is varible, and it is always going to come down to the keepers preferences and understanding of the animal in the end, minimal living spaces is debatable, there is no hard facts to support any animal needs (this space to live) and it is as simple as that, it becomes more difficult because new things about nutrition, diets, hunting behaviors, enrichment activities, challanges are learned on a daily baisis, literally what is right today, could be wrong tomorrow and it can change at just about any moment, this goes to one of my comments when I say, compare 2 zoos together, they probably wont do things the same way. 


1
Since you mention it, you did infact say that they live in this area with feces smeared all over the walls, all day, but then the evidence you provided there was comments to support that wasn't the case, so this questions the credibility of that statement. 



2
I very much doubt any zoo would intentionally release animals and then say "ah well" there is no evidence to support that they said that, zoos are not immune to errors or mistakes, no-one is beyond the boundaries of making mistakes, and just because some place has a zoo on it's name, doesn't mean they wont make any, look at the 5 sisters zoo, that place caught fire, and animals died! does that mean no-one should work there? 

3
What dangerous situations, to me that isn't a dangerous situation, there is fair warnings everywhere, if parents fear for their children, or their children have wonderful habits of wondering off, they shouldn't go through that exhibit, and it is as simple as that, it is a fair warning, it may be a bit risky, but as I discussed, risk assesment would have a factor to play in that, dangerous is approaching the animals when their is warning signs saying not too. 

Keeping this on topic to your origonal statment, none of them are really the foundation of evidence to base anything on, it isn't evidence, it is a picture, which had been posted, and discussed, with varying views on these techniques and methods, something that happens on this forum alot, but evidence?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Well lets examine this one for a moment, purely for relevance, I will highlight each point along side the points I will answer with a red colored number and then address each one separately..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All I can say to whichever poor sod gets this job is good luck! My friends that work/have worked there can't comment on this thread (although they're aware), but they could tell you a few hair raising tales!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> All I can say to whichever poor sod gets this job is good luck! My friends that work/have worked there can't comment on this thread (although they're aware), but they could tell you a few hair raising tales!


No need to shout! WITH BIG RED CAPITAL LETTERS.
You asked me to explain why I didn't consider your evidence as evidence, so I answerd, nothing more than that. 

I can't see any claim made before that one, just comments about not wishing that job on your worst enemy etc.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> No need to shout! WITH BIG RED CAPITAL LETTERS.
> You asked me to explain why I didn't consider your evidence as evidence, so I answerd, nothing more than that.
> 
> I can't see any claim made before that one, just comments about not wishing that job on your worst enemy etc.


hahahahaha…. sorry. was only trying to differentiate between what you and I wrote :blush:

Just read back over those pics of the cat dens that I posted, and I don't believe there is any discussion and contradiction as you suggested. It's pretty much self explanatory and cut and dried….a complete s***hole!

And my first claim (if you read it properly), was remarking on the bizarre mixed exhibits….keeping animals from completely different habitats with different climate requirements in the same paltry enclosure.: victory:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> hahahahaha…. sorry. was only trying to differentiate between what you and I wrote :blush:
> 
> Just read back over those pics of the cat dens that I posted, and I don't believe there is any discussion and contradiction as you suggested. It's pretty much self explanatory.
> 
> And my first claim (if you read it properly), was remarking on the bizarre mixed exhibits….keeping animals from completely different habitats with different climate requirements in the same paltry enclosure.: victory:


I haven't picked up on those points or any other since, because I don't know anything else, I haven't seen it, so can't comment, to clear this up, I am by far not defending this zoo so it isn't relevent for me to pick up on points like that, if it's standards are disgusting when we make the visit, belive me I will be the first to voice concerns, and if I am met with aggresion and abuse, it will be recorded, as far as I know by law they can't lay a finger on me, if they try, well it's a different matter entirely . 

I just wanted to pick up on your point about them not caring for them correctly, and was interested in your views about caring for them correctly with husbandry being as varible as it is, personally I would like to see the snake placed into a more secure enclosure, that would be a good improvement but who am I to question something if it works. 

We have conversed a few times before, (stephen rowlands etc) on similar discussions and topics, and for the most part I do agree with you, I understand your frustration, if I had seen the things you claim to have I would probably be the same as I said, but for me, what you have provided isn't evidence, but still I will take a trip and at least I can say I have expirienced this for myself. 

Hope that makes sense. : victory:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> I just wanted to pick up on your point about them not caring for them correctly, and was interested in your views about caring for them correctly with husbandry being as varible as it is


Well, as I've said a couple of times….the sloth is housed in a warm dry desert style enclosure with the fennecs, when it requires the humidity of a rainforest enclosure. If that's not caring for something incorrectly (i.e. bad husbandry), then I don't know what is!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Not forgetting the pygmy hippos being denied a pool in their indoor quarters! Surely that's the most basic of requirements for an animal that is largely aquatic?


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

Just looking at the evidence mrcriss has put forward here alone, doesn't paint a very good picture for this place.

If it's that bad how come the RSPCA or the council hasn't closed it down, or at least forced changes?


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Appenheul primate park and Burger's Zoo in Holland have free range animals caiman iguanas etc etc, pretty much an indoor rainforest, pretty risky for people to go and view wouldn't you agree? walk through exhibits are not dangerous providing the risk assesment and management is to reduce that risk (ensure the snake is well fed etc) , it also states on the thread you linked up, that this exhibit has warning signs warning people or approachers that the snake will bite, which imo is fair, don't approach the snake, you don't get bitten, simples.



Due to my profession I can't publically comment on South Lakes, however I would like to pick up on this.

Having been to both Appenheul and Burger's zoo, this isn't quite accurate.

All of Appenheul's 'free ranging' animals are primates or birds. Almost all the primates that are considered dangerous (all the great and lesser apes are contained, as are the capuchin, spiders, wooley and howlers). For the majority of the park, the free rangers are squirrels, callatrichids and lemur only. Admittedly, in one area, you can go into a walk through with a troop of barbary macaque, but there are strict guidelines to safety and two permanent members of staff within the exhibit on top of the hole park itself having some pretty serious safety guidelines - including special monkey proof bags that you have to transfer all your belongings into before entering and numerous staff keeping public and monkeys separate.


With Burger's zoo, there is indeed an awesome walk through jungle exhibit which has a number of free flying birds, fruit bats, free ranging anoles and a number of iguana (though I have never seen them and I've been three times). The exhibit does include caiman, manatee, otter, aardvark and a few other things, but none of them are technically free roaming as they are in seperate enclosures within the exhibit (i.e. the public can not access the caimen and vice versa).



I'm making no comment on the safety of various animals for walk through exhibits, but thought I'd challenge the fact that Burger's zoo has free roaming caiman and add a little more detail for those that are interested!

:2thumb:


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## mogley (Dec 9, 2013)

Just read through this whole thread and I'm with mrcriss, i have been to south lakes "zoo" if you can call it that. There are no standards and the owner is a sleez who doesn't care. And to johne.ev the reason the council don't do anything is because there more or less isn't one, there is one community support officer to cover the 4 main surrounding areas. also why would the council shut it down, as it brings alot of money to that part of cumbria.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mogley said:


> Just read through this whole thread and I'm with mrcriss, i have been to south lakes "zoo" if you can call it that. There are no standards and the owner is a sleez who doesn't care. And to johne.ev the reason the council don't do anything is because there more or less isn't one, there is one community support officer to cover the 4 main surrounding areas. also why would the council shut it down, as it brings alot of money to that part of cumbria.


Before being granted a zoo licence, there would be inspections, and therefore standards. 

Zoo licencing act 1981 


> Before granting or refusing to grant a licence for a zoo, the local authority shall also—
> 
> (a)consult the applicant about the conditions they propose would be attached to the licence, if one were granted, under section 5(2A) and (if applicable) section 5(3); and
> 
> (b)make arrangements for an inspection to be carried out in accordance with section 9A (subject to subsection (2) of that section).]


So there will have been standards set. 
I can't help but wonder though, if this zoo is such the vile horrible place it is claimed to be, why hasn't this been raised with concerns to the relevent local authority with evidence to back up those claims, it is only then improvements to the animals welfare is going to be changed or improved, I for one would look very much forward to a day at a zoo, I would be taking a camera with me, if it wasn't all that hot up the first time around, or something I didn't agree with you would take a picture? maybe consider it a one off or a bad day, then you back a second time, there is still no improvement, so you take another picture, raise concerns? and then you go back a third time, and it is all the same? take a picture? and then report them maybe? . :2thumb:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Oh I SO wish I could tell you some more stuff that has been brought to my attention today after a member of the staff saw this thread, but I wouldn't want to get them into trouble.

I know keepers in other zoos see south lakes as a joke, and wouldn't dream of associating themselves with there.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Oh I SO wish I could tell you some more stuff that has been brought to my attention today after a member of the staff saw this thread, but I wouldn't want to get them into trouble.
> 
> I know keepers in other zoos see south lakes as a joke, and wouldn't dream of associating themselves with there.


there is a PM function you know.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> there is a PM function you know.


Ahhh....but with respect, you could be Gill's brother for all I know, and I really wouldn't wanna betray a confidence, just in case


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## johne.ev (Sep 14, 2008)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Before being granted a zoo licence, there would be inspections, and therefore standards.


Well with respect mate, if they are anything like the environmental health or ofsted inspections that i have experience of, then they are a load of boll#cks to start with mate.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Ahhh....but with respect, you could be Gill's brother for all I know, and I really wouldn't wanna betray a confidence, just in case


Well, with respect, if they are speaking the truth, then they would have nothing to hide? I sure wouldn't hide and speak through a third party if I had seen and worked in such conditions, what good is it to do to the animals if no-one speaks up? challanges things? 



johne.ev said:


> Well with respect mate, if they are anything like the environmental health or ofsted inspections that i have experience of, then they are a load of boll#cks to start with mate.


Perhaps, but in the animal welfare act, the 5 freedoms have to be met, and that is the baisic of any baisic inspection, zoos are inspected quite regularly, or they should be at least.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Well, with respect, if they are speaking the truth, then they would have nothing to hide? I sure wouldn't hide and speak through a third party if I had seen and worked in such conditions, what good is it to do to the animals if no-one speaks up? challanges things?
> 
> woulda thought that was obvious....there are jobs to protect! Do you know how hard it is to find employment these days? We can't all go around crusading, taking photos and writing to councils, you know!
> 
> Perhaps, but in the animal welfare act, the 5 freedoms have to be met, and that is the baisic of any baisic inspection, zoos are inspected quite regularly, or they should be at least.


I really hate the way the 5 freedoms keep being held up as the benchmark for how we should all be keeping our animals on this forum. They really are the most basic things (a snake in a small plastic box with a water bowl meets the stupid 5 freedoms!)...and to keep an animal properly (especially in a public attraction), much much more is needed! The 5 freedoms may pass the inspection, but what about all the rest of the necessities?

Councils are easily paid off, and as someone already said, the park brings a whole load of business to an otherwise dead area, so there's no way it's getting closed down! After all, look at all the well publicised controversies and scandals, and they still manage to keep operating!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Are they not inspected yearly by appointment.?
Allot can be covered over and hidden.
Propper diet on day etc.
Found most are volantary helpers.
No nought and do as told.
Learn quite allot of bad ethics.
Not all i may add.
Unless it was creditable zoo
I wouldnt want on cv.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> I really hate the way the 5 freedoms keep being held up as the benchmark for how we should all be keeping our animals on this forum. They really are the most basic things (a snake in a small plastic box with a water bowl meets the stupid 5 freedoms!)...and to keep an animal properly (especially in a public attraction), much much more is needed! The 5 freedoms may pass the inspection, but what about all the rest of the necessities?
> 
> Councils are easily paid off, and as someone already said, the park brings a whole load of business to an otherwise dead area, so there's no way it's getting closed down! After all, look at all the well publicised controversies and scandals, and they still manage to keep operating!



What other necessities is there apart from the 5 freedoms, everything an animal should be provided fits into those categories. 

You say you hate how it is used as the back bench, but the inspections have clearly passed that the 5 freedoms of the animals being cared for are being met, if this is as concerning as you say, why aren't they being challanged? why wont these zoo keepers come forward, proffesional expertise to raise concerns for the animals welfare, whether it is a public attraction or not is irrelivent. Animals are displayed, their needs are being met at least in an interpretated way to be minimal.

You’ll need a zoo licence if you’ll be displaying wild animals to the public for at least 7 days a year, if the 5 freedoms of those animals are met, then they can do what-ever they want, they can be as varible in their husbandry practice as they like, providing the 5 freedoms are met, and clearly, these freedoms are being met, otherwise they wouldn't still be there right now, they have been inspected, they have the licence, they have fair warning signs, (just as it would be not to cross the gates to the polar bear enclosures other zoos might have) if you do so, you do it at your own risk. 

If the 5 freedoms are not met, then they should be challanged, and to challange it, you need to have good evidence, behind you, simple as that.
This is why I asked you what your interpretation was on caring for animals correctly, your standards, are not every other zoos.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> What other necessities is there apart from the 5 freedoms, everything an animal should be provided fits into those categories.
> 
> You say you hate how it is used as the back bench, but the inspections have clearly passed that the 5 freedoms of the animals being cared for are being met, if this is as concerning as you say, why aren't they being challanged? why wont these zoo keepers come forward, proffesional expertise to raise concerns for the animals welfare, whether it is a public attraction or not is irrelivent. Animals are displayed, their needs are being met at least in an interpretated way to be minimal.
> 
> ...


I'm not even going to answer that, because my previous response covered all of your points, which you only repeated from your last post. Except for the fact that I didn't say that i "hate how it is used as a back bench"…..I said I hate that it is used as a "benchmark". Very different meanings.


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> I'm not even going to answer that, because my previous response covered all of your points, which you only repeated from your last post. Except for the fact that I didn't say that i "hate how it is used as a back bench"…..I said I hate that it is used as a "benchmark". Very different meanings.


That is the law unfortunately. :2thumb:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> That is the law unfortunately. :2thumb:


"The law is an ass!" - Charles Dickens

If you're happy walking around a zoo looking at exhibits that only meet the 5 freedoms, then I guess you'll be happy visiting SL….for the rest of us, it's an incredibly depressing day out!

(p.s. and often dangerous, by all accounts!)


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> "The law is an ass!" - Charles Dickens
> 
> If you're happy walking around a zoo looking at exhibits that only meet the 5 freedoms, then I guess you'll be happy visiting SL….for the rest of us, it's an incredibly depressing day out!
> 
> (p.s. and often dangerous, by all accounts!)


I like charles dickens, and yes it is an ass, but that is just the way things are.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

oooooo….look at that! I've got 5 stars now!:jump:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> oooooo….look at that! I've got 5 stars now!:jump:


You need more stars, maybe we should have another debate. :2thumb:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Already got all five now! Where does it go from there?


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Already got all five now! Where does it go from there?


You get gold stars next


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

wouldn't that be exciting!


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> wouldn't that be exciting!


Or you could just pay for a premium membership, get rid of annoying adverts, and get the gold stars anyways?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Salazare Slytherin said:


> Or you could just pay for a premium membership, get rid of annoying adverts, and get the gold stars anyways?


Nah….its ok :roll2:


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## Salazare Slytherin (Oct 21, 2009)

mrcriss said:


> Nah….its ok :roll2:


:lol2:


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## bothrops (Jan 7, 2007)

Please Please Please Guys. Can we PLEASE get this right!


Neither the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 nor the Animal Welfare Act 2006 have anything to do with the 'Five Freedoms'. The five freedoms stem from the Brambell report in the 50's regarding farm animals and were 'adopted' by the RSPCA and used as their mantra. The 'five freedoms' are nothing more than the principles that an animal charity would like us to follow.


The Animal Welfare Act 2006, i.e the *law* actually outlines five 'animal welfare needs' and these are the law.

Admittedly, they are pretty similar in concept (due in part to the RSPCA's large part in the consultation phase of the writing of the AWA), but the five freedoms are not 'the law' but the 'animal welfare needs' are.


As the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 precedes the AWA, it makes no mention of the animal welfare needs (or the five freedoms). It does state that the animals have to be looked after properly - but this based on the Secretary of States Standards of Modern Zoo Practice which talks about five 'provisions' rather than any 'five freedoms'.

i.e. 

From the ZLA:



> The local authority may refuse to grant a licence for a zoo if [F14subsection (2A) does not apply but] they are not satisfied that the standards of accommodation, staffing or management are adequate for the proper care and wellbeing of the animals or any of them or otherwise for the proper conduct of the zoo



..and see here for the SSSMZP - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/69596/standards-of-zoo-practice.pdf





I know that it is basically just semantics and it all boils down to the same thing, but the 'five freedoms' is an outdated term.





Indecently, just meeting the SSSMZP is the _bare minimum requirement_ to obtain a zoo license, but all good UK zoos aim towards industry 'best practice'. This is to far exceed the minimum standards and look to do the best they possibly can for the animals in their care and those still in the wild via conservation efforts etc. Those that succeed become members of BIAZA who set the standards for best practise. 

Here is a list of all BIAZA affiliated collections. Note that a number of them are simple Land based colleges and not all are high earning tourist attractions.

I'll let you work out why I have posted this link.

BIAZA Zoos and Aquariums - Biaza


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Quote: 

*We believe that:*



the natural world is intrinsically precious and the biodiversity of animals, plants, habitats and people must be sustained and protected
zoos and aquariums are uniquely placed to inspire and educate people to understand the interdependence of all living things, and to make changes in people’s behaviour which will have a positive impact on wildlife
through integrated science, education and conservation programmes, zoos and aquariums can be a powerful force for wildlife conservation
the global network of zoos and aquariums enables effective partnerships with each other, as well as with governments, other conservation agencies and local communities at home and overseas
*we can ensure that our members deliver the highest standards of animal welfare, as well as excellence in environmental education, scientific research and visitor experience.*


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## aquajird (Oct 27, 2010)

Re:BIAZA link.
On quick inspection, it looks like all the UK zoos are members of BIAZA with one notable exception. Apart from South Lakes, is there any other zoo not listed?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

aquajird said:


> Re:BIAZA link.
> On quick inspection, it looks like all the UK zoos are members of BIAZA with one notable exception. Apart from South Lakes, is there any other zoo not listed?


That stupidly bizarre Noah's Ark creationist zoo near Bristol isn't in BIAZA anymore…..they got thrown out 

If you've never heard of it, do a bit of research and give yourself a new years laugh! :roll2:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Can't believe you did a whole thread on south lakes without bringing up the bear enclosure, fully stocked with small edible animals. 
I can't think of a single other zoo with a predator/prey mixture.


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> That stupidly bizarre Noah's Ark creationist zoo near Bristol isn't in BIAZA anymore…..they got thrown out
> 
> If you've never heard of it, do a bit of research and give yourself a new years laugh! :roll2:


What do you have to do to get thrown out of BIAZA?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Devi said:


> Can't believe you did a whole thread on south lakes without bringing up the bear enclosure, fully stocked with small edible animals.
> I can't think of a single other zoo with a predator/prey mixture.


Hahahaha…..forgot about that. They must be some very well fed bears!



Beardy Boy97 said:


> What do you have to do to get thrown out of BIAZA?


No idea actually. Could be not meeting with modern zoo standards……

OR it could be that they're creationist nut-bags, trying to teach kids that evolution is all rubbish, and that there are 30 reasons why humans didn't evolve from apes!!!:roll2:


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Beardy Boy97 said:


> What do you have to do to get thrown out of BIAZA?


There were dodgy dealings with a circus, either buying, selling, or keeping, maybe all three, it was a bit odd, in addition to an inside out bbc doc that had some strange findings like a random tiger head in a freezer. A few animal welfare concerns added to this. 
On a lighter note, one of their exhibits in the past was a dog tied to a fence, fully labelled with latin name, they're a bit special!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Devi said:


> There were dodgy dealings with a circus, either buying, selling, or keeping, maybe all three, it was a bit odd, in addition to an inside out bbc doc that had some strange findings like a random tiger head in a freezer. A few animal welfare concerns added to this.
> On a lighter note, one of their exhibits in the past was a dog tied to a fence, fully labelled with latin name, they're a bit special!


Bloody 'ell!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> Bloody 'ell!












Cute no?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

:roll2::roll2::roll2::roll2::roll2::blowup:


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Somebody shared a piece on them on Faceache, a while ago- I'll try and have a look.


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Found it: Why I won't be going back to Noah's Ark creationist zoo | World news | The Observer


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

Ron Magpie said:


> Found it: Why I won't be going back to Noah's Ark creationist zoo | World news | The Observer


I read this article after mrcriss first said about them. I found it quite funny


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

Devi said:


> image
> 
> Cute no?


Why would you do that? Did they not feel a bit stupid doing that and passing it off as a exhibit. I am quite glad I have never been there. Isn't this also the same zoo that have just built a elephant sanctuary?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Beardy Boy97 said:


> Why would you do that? Did they not feel a bit stupid doing that and passing it off as a exhibit. I am quite glad I have never been there. Isn't this also the same zoo that have just built a elephant sanctuary?


They have, don't seem to be able to find elephants to go in it though, I wonder why?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Devi said:


> They have, don't seem to be able to find elephants to go in it though, I wonder why?


Because they were offered three, but they only wanted two by two!


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

It said on their website that they have three female and a bull coming soon but at the moment they are in the last stages of their crate training at their present zoo according to the website. I think it said they are coming from a German zoo


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

This link has a bit of info on it

Introducing Elephant Eden, Paradise for Elephants | Noah's Ark Zoo Farm


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Beardy Boy97 said:


> It said on their website that they have three female and a bull coming soon but at the moment they are in the last stages of their crate training at their present zoo according to the website. I think it said they are coming from a German zoo


That's been their word for a long while, august was the first I heard of it, they now think arrival won't be until march, I'm not an elephant expert but 8 months for crate training appears a little nuts. 
Not that I'd believe rumour, but a few have told me that they still don't have any and are playing for time.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I like the way their god-bothering website has a big gay rainbow on it!:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> I like the way their god-bothering website has a big gay rainbow on it!:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:


They also have a bit about 'earth history'

http://www.noahsarkzoofarm.co.uk/pages/about-us/earth-history/earth-history.php


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I know….insane, isn't it?

How can people running an institution as scientific as a zoo, pollute childrens' minds with that crap?


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## Beardy Boy97 (Dec 13, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> I know….insane, isn't it?
> 
> How can people running an institution as scientific as a zoo, pollute childrens' minds with that crap?


I don't understand how they are allowed


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

I imagine they can call 'religious persecution' if anyone interferes with their god-given right to be nutters.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Has anyone else seen South Lakes Safari Slum's bizarre rant on Facebook this morning? Whilst the sentiment is possibly right, to put all that out there on Facebook is a bit unprofessional…..certainly makes David Gill come across as an unbalanced loon-bag!:whistling2:

"In the past 20 years since I built the zoo the burden of paperwork, new regulation and sometimes ridiculous rules and illogical forced expense has created a financial burden that most people will have no idea about. We have had to employ new staff that spend all day filling out forms , checking reports and simply trying to conform to the demands of the bureaucratic systems that are forced on us by local and national government. The previous government spent 15 years creating a staggering amount of new rules and red tape , forcing business to pay out billions in unnecessary charges. I could tell you all stories about the staggering things we have been forced to do, reports by "experts" that have never actually worked at the job they report on and the wasted money caused by "jobs worths " that plague our business and I know everyone else s businesses. Whilst we need a safe working environment and standards, this country has become a place where freedom does not now exist, every aspect of our lives has a rule or legislation applied, we cant do what we want, we have to do what the rules say, how has this country become the desperate nanny state it has? Everyone goes on about the USA and insurance issues .... yet I have businesses in the USA and we are not plagued in any way like the UK. This country is far worse than the USA or most other countries now for over protection, taking away the right to choose and forcing higher and higher cost burdens on business making it harder to employ people not easier. I know of 3 businesses locally that have closed and given up simply because of excessive regulation and taxes since the new year... Council officers are paid far in excess of business counterparts yet they are the ones that seem determined to force business on to the scrap heap and the general public have no idea of the costs. Our business rates, electricity, food, insurance, and most of all staff have increased costs this year and we are struggling to survive yet Government seems to be blind to the staggering regulation burdens forced on us all. Recently we have been forced by authorities to spend over £50,000 on new systems we have operated perfectly well without for 20 years. I am telling you all this because as visitors you will have no idea how difficult it is to operate a zoo or any business under the staggering over regulation in the UK that was placed on us over the past 20 years of controlling and money spending governments who find it so easy to spend everyone elses money ! Good luck to this government trying to remove the 15 years of red tape put in place ... and give choice back to the public and give freedom back to the people."


Step away from the keyboard, David, have a cups and go and do some much needed cleaning out to take your mind off things!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Not sure how bright it is to complain about health and safety so soon after one of your animals ate one of your staff?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Devi said:


> Not sure how bright it is to complain about health and safety so soon after one of your animals ate one of your staff?


Indeed!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

And so it continues…….


"To those who think we do not have a right to voice our opinions on our own page then ... please unlike us.
If people do not speak out and tell about the way business is being destroyed by ridiculous and unnecessary over regulation and excessive costs being forced on them then how can you possibly understand the issues we face? All you business operators out there whether one man bands or large companies know how difficult it is to operate . If you all wonder why everything is so expensive ... just look at Business Rates... an obscene tax that taxes whether you make a profit or not !! what is wrong with this country is that Government is too big, it is involved in every aspect of life and the cost of providing it is ruining the chances for more jobs. If I didnt pay business rates I could afford to employ 6 more people at least... the taxes they would pay and the spend they generate would more than replace the business rates but create jobs !
Why do we need media training? this is not a site to say what we all want to hear it is a site to reflect what we are all about. When we work in conservation around the world we have to have a loud and powerful voice to change this world we live in.. and yet some expect us then to sit quiet when all around us is causing hell for us all. Prices go up ..for everything because Governments local or national want to spend more of our money on what they want .. not what we want.
Rant ?? yes... and why not? this is our facebook page and we can say what we feel and are passionate about. The newspaper media print lies and untruths all the time... many of you still buy and support them ..... so as we said ... we are not just a zoo..we are an organisation that makes a serious effort to change the world for the better, not just in Third World countries but anywhere a voice is needed. regards to all."


Well, someone's got his knickers in a knot! Wasn't me, I promise…….I'm banned from passing comment on South Lakes anymore, because I'm not a brown-nosing yes man:2thumb: But isn't Gill so worthy? A real hero:whistling2:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

………HOWEVER, this is the first time (to my knowledge) that Gill has referred to his zoo as a "business" that is there to make money. Usually he avoids that word, and makes himself out to be some kind of charitable hero that's out to save the world!


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## Graeme.C (Jan 30, 2011)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-rev...iewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

read the review of his book that is written by MUM.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Well well well!:gasp:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

Graeme.C said:


> Amazon.co.uk: Customer Reviews: Nine Lives
> 
> read the review of his book that is written by MUM.


So he lies about his personal life too.


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

feorag said:


> So he lies about his personal life too.


How do you know? That's a review which could have been written by anyone claiming to be his mum.

He seems to come in from a lot of stick from haters. Some may be justified, some looks like envy from people who'd like their own place but don't. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the attacks made on him were not true.


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

Mynki said:


> How do you know? That's a review which could have been written by anyone claiming to be his mum.
> 
> He seems to come in from a lot of stick from haters. Some may be justified, some looks like envy from people who'd like their own place but don't. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the attacks made on him were not true.


The review was not from his mum or claiming to be.
As for the 'stick', the majority, if not everything on this thread is factual, not sure how you can claim that publicised stories or events are not true?


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## Mynki (Mar 24, 2010)

Devi said:


> The review was not from his mum or claiming to be.
> As for the 'stick', the majority, if not everything on this thread is factual, not sure how you can claim that publicised stories or events are not true?


I didn't claim they were. I said I would not be surprised if some was not. There is a huge difference. And that is a fact.  :lol2:


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

I'll give you that....the review could well be a fake (although it wouldn't surprise me if it was genuine), but as Devi said, the rest of the stuff said on this thread (particularly by myself), has been fact. In truth, I've been very careful to not make things up, because Gill is all too quick to kick off on anyone who doesn't think the sun shines out of his arse!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Shall we have a bit of an update on David Gill and his Safari Slum?

Well, I stand by what I said that I wouldn't have wished that job upon my worst enemy....what a :censor:!




And here's his half-arsed apology!

Zoo Boss Apologises For Gay Marriage Comments | Local News | News & Info | The Bay


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> Shall we have a bit of an update on David Gill and his Safari Slum?
> 
> Well, I stand by what I said that I wouldn't have wished that job upon my worst enemy....what a :censor:!
> 
> ...


Before I reply to this, how many rude names can I call him and not get banned from here?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Devi said:


> Before I reply to this, how many rude names can I call him and not get banned from here?


do it, Do It, DO IT!!!!


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

mrcriss said:


> do it, Do It, DO IT!!!!


Haha, no seriously, I won't, just think of all the bad words you know, he's just all of them. I was already disgusted that he has basically sentenced his baby giraffe to death by not looking after it properly, including taking her away from her mother at a few hours old so his kids could get a snuggle, this is just a new stupid string to his bow. 
It would be funny how idiotic he was, if he didn't have the lives of so many animals in his care!! Jesus christ.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Devi said:


> Haha, no seriously, I won't, just think of all the bad words you know, he's just all of them. I was already disgusted that he has basically sentenced his baby giraffe to death by not looking after it properly, including taking her away from her mother at a few hours old so his kids could get a snuggle, this is just a new stupid string to his bow.
> It would be funny how idiotic he was, if he didn't have the lives of so many animals in his care!! Jesus christ.


Oh I didn't tell you the latest about the baby giraffe, did I? Well, instead of separating mum and baby from the others at lock-up, Gill wanted them all in together. One of the other females "accidentally brushed" the baby with her leg, and now it has a wonky leg.....can't walk properly. They've decided to stand back and let it play out, whatever the outcome! Apparently, after a few weeks, it's not looking good.:bash::bash:


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## KDale (Jan 26, 2014)

so we went from zoo keepers wanted to all hell?


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

KDale said:


> so we went from zoo keepers wanted to all *hell*?


Because that's what it would be like working for that narcissistic egomaniac! 

*EDIT.....sorry, I forgot bigoted too!


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## PurpleHeyze (Aug 7, 2010)

Check out their awesome fact file of anacondas:
South Lakes Safari Zoo – Yellow Anaconda 

:2thumb:


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## cherryshrimp (Aug 1, 2012)

Anyone know if there is a police investigation or any hope of prosecution for the homophobic remarks made by Mr Gill? Is an apology by him enough to take back the hurt and mental scarring/damage? Some people have or had respect for him and would maybe have suffered because of the facebook comments.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

cherryshrimp said:


> Anyone know if there is a police investigation or any hope of prosecution for the homophobic remarks made by Mr Gill? Is an apology by him enough to take back the hurt and mental scarring/damage? Some people have or had respect for him and would maybe have suffered because of the facebook comments.


Yes they are investigating......both him and the people that reacted to his vile comments.

North West Evening Mail | News | Police probe Dalton zoo owner

Thing is, I know for a fact that he has a fair few gay people on his staff. Imagine how they're feeling right now!:gasp:

This man really needs dealing with. His rant was out of order, his "apology" was merely a load more insults, and he always gets away with this kind of controversy because he says that he just likes to do things a bit differently and makes no excuses for that! What a knob!


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## Ron Magpie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sadly, even the pro- LGBT comments were a bit weedy- although that could be down to the papers editorial policy. A simple 'the world has changed, the law has changed. either change with it or shut up!' would be enough...


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## KDale (Jan 26, 2014)

i guess we just have to accept that some people are T:censor:ts and just live with it


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

KDale said:


> i guess we just have to accept that some people are T:censor:ts and just live with it


Well no, because if someone gets away with it so publicly, then it sends a message to others that it's ok. He has to be held accountable for being a 
t:censor:t!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

South Lakes' brand new jaguar enclosure....moving the cats in today.



Where are the trees Dave? Where's the rainforest cover Dave? Where are the climbing opportunities Dave? Where's the hidey-hole to allow the jags a bit of peace Dave? WHERE'S THE JOY DAVE?

Oh that's right, you blew the budget on fancy windows instead!:2wallbang:


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

That looks dreadful! :gasp: Poor cats!


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## PETERAROBERTSON (Jul 2, 2008)

Think pictures like this could be put up from many zoos.
Hate edinburghs cats.
Pacing back and forth.
No room.
Bored out there skuls.
Off topic i suppose.
But true.
Or maybe some of you zoo lovers could name one thats got it all 100%.


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## BMo1979 (Feb 13, 2012)

I bet if that guy could, he'd put the cats into those old round cages :bash:.
This is just horrible!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Think pictures like this could be put up from many zoos.
> Hate edinburghs cats.
> Pacing back and forth.
> No room.
> ...


At least the public will be able to get a good view of the bored, depressed and anxious jaguars, eh?:whistling2:

As far as jaguars go, Paradise Wildlife Park in Hertfordshire has done it pretty well. This pic is a very old one, and the plants have grown substantially now.....it can be difficult to even see through the enclosure! It's deceptively large, and you can see there's plenty of elevation. 


(The jags are actually on a sabbatical in their sister park at the mo for breeding.)

As for tigers, I may be biased, but I like Banham's setup. It's a huge enclosure with open grassland, woodland and a stream/lake in it. Again, with this enclosure, you can't see the far end of it without walking around it.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Chester's jaguar exhibit is pretty good too.....although some days you're lucky to get to see them at all. Still, it's good for them to have loads of hiding places.

*EDIT - they both certainly kick the pants of South Lakes' barren wasteland with standard telegraph pole for feeding!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Couple of nice American jag exhibits....as always, there's the Disney spin that the yanks like to put on their zoos with all the mock-rock, but they still get points for creativity.


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## mitsi (Feb 1, 2012)

Might be my eyes but some of the fencing goin down the back end of thst jag enclosure looks dodgy.
(The one at south lake).


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## bonesy (Mar 8, 2014)

some people are just driven by pound signs and dont care about the animals or peoples safety by looking at hes fencing as mitsi has pointed out its sad people can get away with this its a form of animal cruelty end of the day.


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## feorag (Jul 31, 2007)

mitsi said:


> Might be my eyes but some of the fencing goin down the back end of thst jag enclosure looks dodgy.
> (The one at south lake).


I thought that too! :2thumb:



bonesy said:


> some people are just driven by pound signs and dont care about the animals or peoples safety by looking at hes fencing as mitsi has pointed out its sad people can get away with this its a form of animal cruelty end of the day.


problem is in some cases, the public complain if they can't see the animal, so instead of explaining to the public why they can't, they make it so the animals can't hide and then the public are happy - fcuk the animals!!!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

feorag said:


> problem is in some cases, the public complain if they can't see the animal, so instead of explaining to the public why they can't, they make it so the animals can't hide and then the public are happy - fcuk the animals!!!


That why I like the Durrell way of thinking...."so long as the animal's happy, sod the public! And yes I will fill my zoo with hundreds of the same species of little brown jobs, 'cos they need the most help!" (Obviously paraphrased)

Now as for Gill, well it astounds me that he considers his zoo to be amongst the best in the country. Nothing is done for the benefit of the animals, but for the best visitor experience. Yes, you'll be able to touch lemurs penguins and giraffes, but do they really need to be touched? And whilst you're tickling lemurs, woe betide that you're female and menstrauting, because you'll be attacked by kangaroos! (Allegedly!):whistling2:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

I told my place of work that I will not be talk any of our children to this place again on trips... I could not take the children round a place that is so unethical.
I also take umbrage with him making those remarks about the gay community.
Makes me wonder, if that's how he feels about gay people and the lack of respect he showed them... What are his feelings on the disabled and children with additional needs....
Unless of course they are paying to get in his shitty zoo.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Rach1 said:


> I told my place of work that I will not be talk any of our children to this place again on trips... I could not take the children round a place that is so unethical.
> I also take umbrage with him making those remarks about the gay community.
> *Makes me wonder, if that's how he feels about gay people and the lack of respect he showed them... What are his feelings on the disabled and children with additional needs....*
> Unless of course they are paying to get in his shitty zoo.


Well I suppose that depends upon whether he believes that disabled kids are "abnormal and anti natural"! 

hmmmmmm......Ron Magpie, should we apply to get married at South Lakes? Just for sh*ts and giggles? 

*EDIT - there's no such term as "anti natural", the dumb piece of :censor:


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## Rach1 (May 18, 2010)

mrcriss said:


> Well I suppose that depends upon whether he believes that disabled kids are "abnormal and anti natural"!
> 
> hmmmmmm......Ron Magpie, should we apply to get married at South Lakes? Just for sh*ts and giggles?
> 
> *EDIT - there's no such term as "anti natural", the dumb piece of :censor:



That's what worries me mrcriss... If he can have those disgusting views about gay folk, makes you wonder what other ridiculous notions he holds dear?
I hope for his sake and his children's that none of his children are gay...
Can you imagine the response the child would get?
Hopefully tho, the shock to mr gill would cause him to spontaneously combust!


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

As I said earlier....imagine if a couple of the penguins in their filthy enclosure turned out to be raging queens...what fate would befall them?


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## Devi (Jan 9, 2011)

PETERAROBERTSON said:


> Think pictures like this could be put up from many zoos.
> Hate edinburghs cats.
> Pacing back and forth.
> No room.
> ...


The difference for me is most of the zoos that have crappy enclosures have had them for years and are using them as best as they can until theres cash and space for refurbs. They don't build brand new crappy enclosures. If you look at the newer enclosures at edinburgh like pandas and chimps they're much better.


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## mrcriss (Nov 2, 2010)

Devi said:


> The difference for me is most of the zoos that have crappy enclosures have had them for years and are using them as best as they can until theres cash and space for refurbs. They don't build brand new crappy enclosures. If you look at the newer enclosures at edinburgh like pandas and chimps they're much better.


Aye, I've got no problem with zoos that are trying to gradually update from the outdated 60's/70's/80's enclosures _(or older!)_, because of course there's no bottomless pit of money. But when the zoo just crams in as many animals into crappy housing as possible so that it has more to boast about on facebook, well then they're no better than hoarders really! Lest we mention Gill's latest acquisition....3 arctic wolves bunged into a featureless and cover lacking hillside paddock of the kind that one might expect to see little else but a small herd of grazing sheep!

Whilst we're on it.....has anyone been to ZSL recently? Do they still have the depressing "FORGOTTEN ZONE" where the giraffe/okapi/tapir/zebra live stashed away in the corner as an afterthought?


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