# Hognose for daughter - advice needed



## Teleopsis (Dec 13, 2014)

Hello all

Sorry about posting a 'don't know anything, please help' message...

My 10-year old daughter, assisted by her 12-year old sister is conducting a prolonged and enthusiastic campaign to try to persuade me to get her a Hognose snake for Xmas. I'm generally open to the idea - I like herps myself and would rather a snake than a dog, for example. If all goes well I will make sure they understand some of the fundamental points about keeping animals (it's a live animal not a toy, they have to look after it properly, I'm sure you all know the spiel) and then go ahead with it. The problem is that I really don't know much about keeping snakes and I was hoping to get a bit of advice on a few questions.

1) Is a hognose suitable as a first snake for a kid? They're both sensible and reasonably grown up kids and as far as I can tell from my research a hognose would make a decent 'starter' snake but if any experts can advise on this I'd be grateful.

2) Best place to get one? We live in Surrey so the ideal would be to identify a good, knowledgeable and ethical local shop in Surrey or SW London: can anyone recommend one?

3) Accommodation - from what I've read the Really Useful Box option plus heat mat etc. seems good for a juvenile - is that OK or should I be looking at a proper vivarium?

As I say, I apologise for the n00b questions but any help would be very gratefully received.


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

Only thing ill say on the matter is
Research,look on here for Hognose
Be aware that they are a mild rear fanged venomous 
And despite what some folk say,they can and do give a nasty bite.Some folk have a ad reaction to the bites/chews


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## Teleopsis (Dec 13, 2014)

Hmm. So maybe better to get a corn snake instead?


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## Oxmonitor (Sep 9, 2013)

Some people can react badly no doubt, they do have to have a good chew on you though. 

In all honesty I wouldn't let a daughter of mine of that age have one, I guess it depends upon the maturity of the child though and how you feel too. No doubt most hogs are all bluff and are great 'pets' but they should be respected when being handled but then that goes for any animal.

Lots of suitable snakes out there, no such thing as a starter snake, go through some pictures with her of various snakes and see what she likes then do some research. Bare in mind snakes are long lived and kids are notorious for getting bored, again that's a generalisation and depends on the individual child. Plenty of info on here and help too.


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

corn snakes are without doubt the best option for a first snake, esp for kids, they are easier to care for, and more tolerant/forgiving of inevitable mistakes by new owners

hognose are venomous, as already said, although they arn't exactly rattle snakes, kids are obviously more vulnerable to their venom than adults, and there's no safe way to find out whether or not she is allergic to the venom

avoiding a bite is always the best option (venomous or not, for the snakes sake as much as the owner) but that requires experience of snake behaviour

imo its definitely better for her to learn how to read a snakes behaviour, with a snake which cant do any damage...a defensive strike isn't so much of an issue (at most will graze the skin), and they only usually occur a few times while the snake is getting used to its new home and owner

...but a feeding response bite can be more of a problem, that is when a hognose bite could be an issue (as it will hold on, and venom is injected) - these bites happen when an owner ignores, or doesn't know how to read, a snakes behaviour

I think its something you need to talk to her about really, perhaps if she can care for a less challenging species for a year or two, then you could consider a snake like a hognose for her; bare in mind of course, you need to be prepared to take on the snakes care yourself, and be confident in handling and caring for it, should the need arise, asking a 10 year old to take on a commitment of care for the next 10 years or more is a big thing to ask, and if they go off to a collage or university in the future, they may not be allowed to keep the snake in campus dorms/student housing etc


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## Purple Grant (Dec 3, 2014)

Hi,
I'm relevantly new to snakes myself. I went down the I suppose "standard" route of getting a cornsnake a little over a year ago then moving on to something different in a hognose as a second snake.

A corn is a little easier as a first snake, but that's not to say that hogs are difficult. They can be a bit fussy about eating (My Hognose needs it's mice scented with tuna at the moment) and have that rear-fang thing going on. It's really hard to get bit by all accounts and the venom is so mild it seems to be a bit of a heated debate as to whether it actually is venom per se.

An advantage of the way I've went is I got my baby corn in a 2' viv. When he got bigger I moved him up to a 4' which should do him for life. Then I had the 2' free for the hognose which should hopefully do her for life so I'm not in a cycle of re-housing all the time.

So I'd say put the idea of a corn to them (easier to find, lots more choice of interesting colours), but don't worry about it to much. Hognoses are easy and if they've fallen in love with that particular kind of snake that'll count a lot to how much interest and pleasure they take in it.


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## Tom767 (Jun 26, 2014)

nelly1 said:


> Only thing ill say on the matter is
> Research,look on here for Hognose
> Be aware that they are a mild rear fanged venomous
> And despite what some folk say,they can and do give a nasty bite.Some folk have a ad reaction to the bites/chews





CloudForest said:


> hognose are venomous, as already said, although they arn't exactly rattle snakes, kids are obviously more vulnerable to their venom than adults, and there's no safe way to find out whether or not she is allergic to the venom


That info is a little dated, hognose snakes are not rear fanged. There has been a lot of controversy with this but after research into the anatomy of the snake, it's been discovered they have no venom glands. Yes their saliva is toxic, just as much as any other non-venomous snake, but the number of bites that carried onto infections is extremely small. Being bitten by any snake can lead to infection, but while a hognose will "strike" at you (whilst actually headbutting and not actually opening their mouth), any other snake will actually strike mouth open. So chances of being bitten and infected by a hognose are extremely low.

So in my opinion, as long as you'd be willing to learn about the species yourself, and lead your daughter in the right direction, a hognose will be a perfect snake to start with. 

As for housing, a baby hognose will start off fine in a 5 or 9l rub, whilst growing up will make its way into at least a 50l. As for substrate, a deep layer of aspen would probably be the preferred choice due to the hognoses desire to burrow under. 

There's probably plenty of hognose owners in your area on here that would be willing to let you/your daughter see theirs and do a 'try before you buy' sort of thing. 

Tom


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Tom767 said:


> That info is a little dated, hognose snakes are not rear fanged. There has been a lot of controversy with this but after research into the anatomy of the snake, it's been discovered they have no venom glands. Yes their saliva is toxic, just as much as any other non-venomous snake, but the number of bites that carried onto infections is extremely small. Being bitten by any snake can lead to infection, but while a hognose will "strike" at you (whilst actually headbutting and not actually opening their mouth), any other snake will actually strike mouth open. So chances of being bitten and infected by a hognose are extremely low.
> 
> So in my opinion, as long as you'd be willing to learn about the species yourself, and lead your daughter in the right direction, a hognose will be a perfect snake to start with.
> 
> ...



just looking to this now, and after reading some of Dr Fry's work, we are all a bit wrong on this

infact Hognose snakes have basically the same glands as cobras and rattlesnakes, but not the same as vipers and other more "evolved" species, which is where the distinction comes from (the gland basically doesn't have a muscle to pressurize the venom); however they do posses true venom glands, they are not saliva secretions and are not found in boa's or pythons.

hognose do have long rear fangs, unlike most other colurbids like Corn snakes, whose fangs are fairly useless in comparison, and do not deliver toxins efficiently if at all. (although, Dr Fry has extracted cobratoxin's from rat snakes)

check Dr Fry's website, venomdoc if you want to find out more


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## Athravan (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm going to address your third question regarding really useful boxes. They are suitable for snake keeping because it's a small container which is secure and holds heat - which is essentially all a vivarium is - but it's not natural, and you're very limited by size.

Personally it is my strong opinion that if you are looking for a lifetime pet, that is going to live 15-25 years with you then you want to give it the best you possibly can. Snakes will appreciate as much size, space and stimulation as you give them. They are at the end of the day, wild animals and we are trying to replicate a wild habitat as best we can.

The largest really useful box is certainly adequate for a hognose - but it's just a tub. There is so much more you can do with a nice custom made enclosure - something that not only provides the snake with a realistic habitat, but also that looks like a nice display in your home, considering you're going to have it for quite a while!

Don't put your snake in the minimum it needs, give it everything you can and both you and he will benefit 

I would also add that I would recommend a corn snake also, but ultimately again - an animal you're going to have with you for that length of time should not be chosen because it ticks some arbitrary list, but because it's something your kids truly want and you feel you can commit to. If they would be just as happy with a corn snake as a hognose, it is probably more suitable.

My concern with hognoses is not so much the venom, which in 20+ years of keeping and selling them I have never experienced being a problem, but the bluff of the animal. Even though they are small snakes, they have a lot of bluff to them. If they're in a bad mood they can hiss and rattle and it can be scary. My worry would be that for a 10 year old girl, that's going to develop into a fear of being bitten, especially when coupled with the knowledge that the bite could be painful - which could lead to her being afraid to care for the snake or not wanting it any more.


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

If you are going to pay for plastic surgery I would advise going for a normal nose!!

Sorry, I will get my coat :lol2:


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## nelly1 (Oct 27, 2009)

some folk need to look at the effect of bites and then say they are fine.
It can cause some folk a bit of a problem
I would not let a child of mine handle one, having seen the possible out come


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## Nodders (May 11, 2009)

Anyone have the pages on here that have shown a bite over a few days were they could not move their fingers because of the swelling that went right up their arms . 

I'm sure there were 2 people that allowed the hognoses to bite them to study the effects . After seeing them I would hope I wasn't allergic .

I keep hoggies and would hate to be chewed on by one of the big girls .

I do not allow my kids to handle them at all . But that's another story


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## 955i (Aug 17, 2007)

Any snake can bite, any bite is likely to put your young girl off or make her more scared of handling.

My 7yo is fascinated but is only allowed to hold the hatchling Brazilian Rainbows at present as they are all very placid (with the exception of one female who always seems to think I smell of mouse :gasp.

To expose her to a snake that can not only bite but have potentially nasty side effects as a first snake would be inappropriate IMO.

Try a garter snake, they were my first and had endless fun with them or rough greens which are beautiful and insectivorous.

If I may ask, what has been the driver attracting her to hoggies in the first place? They are by no means the prettiest of snakes.


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## Purple Grant (Dec 3, 2014)

When I was choosing my snakes I found this guy's youtube videos really helpful. They're great little 10 minute overviews of what's involved with each snake...
Hognoses
Corns


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## Teleopsis (Dec 13, 2014)

Thanks all for the help, I have suggested to her that a corn snake might be more appropriate and she is happy with the idea. I'm not sure exactly why she wanted the hognose over anything else in the first place, I suspect it was because of their funny shaped noses.

What I will do is take her into a couple of local shops (turns out there are several) and have a look at what they've got and have a long talk with her WRT the duties and responsibilities of keeping a pet like this. If she is fine with that then we'll go for it.

Cheers

Rob


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## CloudForest (Nov 27, 2013)

Teleopsis said:


> Thanks all for the help, I have suggested to her that a corn snake might be more appropriate and she is happy with the idea. I'm not sure exactly why she wanted the hognose over anything else in the first place, I suspect it was because of their funny shaped noses.
> 
> What I will do is take her into a couple of local shops (turns out there are several) and have a look at what they've got and have a long talk with her WRT the duties and responsibilities of keeping a pet like this. If she is fine with that then we'll go for it.
> 
> ...


awesome  corns are great snakes

shops are a good place to see whats available, and some can be a good place to buy from too, but they may not give accurate care advice, so worth doubling checking on here  

check the snake over as much as you can before you buy it, look out for discoloured/damaged scales on its belly, the vent (bum) should be clean and not have any discharge or crusted stuff on it, and check for mites, tiny black dots that might move about, and check the tip of the tail to make sure theres no stuck shed...these are 4 common problems which could cost allot in vet fee's to solve (although mites are relatively easy to fix, they do sumtimes cause secondary health problems if they've been on there for a while)


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## clumsyoaf (Oct 23, 2012)

Hiya!

As already said, the big thing with hognoses is the bluff, mine makes me pretty nervous and I am an adult! She, however, is amazing to watch and soooo clever! Basically, I don't handle mine but LOVE to watch her, so your girls may feel the same if they don't mind having a snake they can watch and only handle now and again. In all honestly, I wouldn't necessarily try and talk her into a different snake, if her heart is set on a hognose I would go to the reptile shop, ask to look and hoggies, then ask to see some other snakes and see if she prefers one of them.


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## Melissa88 (Oct 28, 2009)

Also if you are looking for a generally calmer/slower moving option than a Corn (especially a young Corn), a Rosy boa might be a good one to consider as well.

Rosys are a bit more expensive/harder to find than Corns but they stay quite small, are generally very mellow, come in loads of pretty colours, great feeders and very easy to care for. I've had multiple children that have met my snakes put off or made nervous by the over quick movements of some of my Corns that absolutely fell in love with my Rosys. Just another one to look into.


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## Neidr (Jan 10, 2011)

corns are a brill idea, a corn was my first (and 2nd and 3rd) snake, and I'm now studying Herpetology in Uni :2thumb:

not that I condone choosing snakes for this, but corns do also come in very pretty colours : victory:

furthering the advice on buying, check if they're feeding properly - ask if you can see the snake feeding (when it's next scheduled to) before you buy, just to make sure

RUBS are perfect for corns as they're growing, my adult girls (just turned 3) are going into 4ft vivs next summer, they're hitting 4.5ft now and in 33ltr RUBS


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## turtlelover666 (Jul 26, 2009)

my first snake was a female boa. it all depends on what your into. i only recently got some corns and find the boas much more interesting but thats just me. I also have a caramel hognose who is a great wee guy. never bluffed or anything, they can sometimes be fussy eaters when young though.


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## ian14 (Jan 2, 2008)

Tom767 said:


> That info is a little dated, hognose snakes are not rear fanged. There has been a lot of controversy with this but after research into the anatomy of the snake, it's been discovered they have no venom glands. Yes their saliva is toxic, just as much as any other non-venomous snake, but the number of bites that carried onto infections is extremely small. Being bitten by any snake can lead to infection, but while a hognose will "strike" at you (whilst actually headbutting and not actually opening their mouth), any other snake will actually strike mouth open. So chances of being bitten and infected by a hognose are extremely low.
> 
> So in my opinion, as long as you'd be willing to learn about the species yourself, and lead your daughter in the right direction, a hognose will be a perfect snake to start with.
> 
> ...


I would love to know where this little gem has come from!!
Hoggies have enlarged rear fangs, situated just behind the eye. If you ever get the chance to look at a dead adult, you'll see that these are sheathed and hinged. They also possess venom glands and have had various venomous compounds extracted from them.
To claim that bites from Hognoses are "infected" is truly out dated. Most bites are dry, i.e. the rear fangs not used. If you look at cases of envenomated bites, these all involve feeding error, on the part of the keeper. In my case, putting mice into the freezer before being asked to hold an adult male while his viv was being cleaned. This means that the snake mistakes the "victim" as food, so uses the rear fangs when biting.
It is this reason that I would never suggest hoggies as suitable for children. A lapse of concentration around feeding time could easily lead to an envenomated bite. While the bite is not medically significant, it is still very painfully, with extensive swelling, horrendous headache, extreme pins and needles etc. In one case, the person was left with permanent damage to his immune system. Although there is no proof that the damage was a direct result of the bite, the damage wasn't there beforehand.

Incidentally, to say that their saliva is toxic in the same breath as saying they are not venomous is completely contradictory. Venom is basically modified, evolved, toxic saliva!!


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## milk1706 (Nov 10, 2009)

hognose's are awesome little snakes. i Have a male and he is amazing very friendly and very easy to handle. never bitten but did strike closed mouthed when i first got him and hissed. but soon grew out of that with plenty of handling. Would say they are a great starter snake for older children but would defiantly be wary of the bites. Corns are the staple starter snake, but my hognose has far more personality than my corn snake. 

.


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